# I want to investigate my mom because my dad won't



## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

Hi,

I originally posted here with a list of red flags that concerned me about my mother's behavior, with the suspicion that she may be cheating. Here's that thread again if anyone wants to go over the list:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/72097-someone-looking-help.html

Eventually, I decided to talk to my dad about my mom's change in behavior without bringing up infidelity, and as I thought he would he told me not to worry about it. He said that she was going through "changes" because of her age (turning 50 this year), and that her work is stressing her out, and that we should be nice and give her a break. So I kind of backed off for a while but the 'red flags' persisted and built up to a point where it was hard for me to even be in the same room as her. These are sort of the major ones that set me over the top, in addition to the previously existing red flags:

- She's been going out more with a divorced friend of hers. My mom usually gets annoyed when we ask her who she's meeting but this woman usually picks my mom up from our house, so that's how I know who she's going with. This woman bothers me because she's always trying to influence my mom to do things based off of her single woman mentality (like she's always going "Oh we should go here" "We should do this" "We should do that"), when it's really just her dragging my mom along because she doesn't want to venture out on her own. Not to be rude, but at that age it's probably hard to find another single person and I can't help but think that this woman just wants a friend to act single with her.

- Another thing that bothered me about this woman's influence was that on a day where they were going to a spa to get massages, she said to my mom, in front of my sister and me, "When's the last time you spent an hour on a bed with a hunky guy all over you?" I mean, okay it's great that you think you're funny, but do you have to emasculate my dad in front of his children in his own house? I don't get it, seriously, who does that? To make it worse, my mom gave her a playful "Let's go!", which really freaking annoyed me.

- My mom didn't want to do ANYTHING on Mother's Day. It didn't help that my dad was working, but we offered to cook her breakfast, to take her out shopping and to lunch, and to make dinner/take her out but she didn't want to do any of it and she just watched T.V. the whole day. Like I said in the other threat, my mom says she feels unappreciated (no matter what anyone does), so I thought maybe she didn't want to be with us if someone _was_ making her feel appreciated.

- Also on Mother's Day, she got a succession of pings on her phone but she wouldn't check them in front of us. My sister and I decided to go out and get her lunch, and when we left I realized I forgot my driver's license and when I went back inside to get it, my mom was on the phone, and when she saw me she put the phone down and asked "What are you doing?"

- Recently, she went to a night event for her work. The event was supposed to be over at 9:30 and she told my dad she'd be home by 11 but she got home around the time when I stopped studying, which was past midnight. 

- I found an unsigned card on the floor, and all it said was "You are a queen and should be treated like one. Thinking of you." I couldn't tell if it was male or female handwriting but when I gave it to my mom she acted unnecessarily dismissive about it, and told me it was just something a co-worker gave her for Mother's Day. I didn't ask if it was a man or a woman who wrote it because I didn't want her to catch on.

So I really just want to find out whether or not my mom is cheating and I just need help. My mom obviously needs some kind of help herself regardless of if she's cheating or not, and we've tried helping her my dad's way ("be nice because she's your mother") but that always backfires. She almost never wants to talk about things, and on the rare occasions she does, it's always HER, HER, HER, and she is literally unable to empathize or sympathize with us. It's like she never hears what we say to her because she's thinking of the next way to victimize herself. As an example, when she misinterprets something my sister and I say to her or our tone of voice, it's our fault because we should have expressed ourselves in a way she could understand. But when she's misinterpreted, it's our fault still, because we should have been more understanding of her and we jumped to conclusions. My mom has always been stubborn, but in the past, if my dad told her she was wrong, she was wrong. Now her stubbornness surpasses my dad's word, and if he tells her she's wrong she gets even more incensed. If she wasn't cheating, I don't think we'd have a problem defusing things through communication like functional families do. But I think if she is cheating, her partner makes her feel wanted/appreciated and "the fog" (which I learned from here) makes her relationship seem perfect, which would validate her feelings that she's right and we're wrong, which would explain her unwillingness to compromise. Anyway, sorry for ranting again! But the adults in my life would either be at risk of telling my mom everything I say to them or are too pretentious to talk to, and friends don't have the experience that you guys do.

For the TLDR people, I just want to know how to catch a cheater is all. Thank you.


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## Nujabes (May 16, 2013)

Wow, the whole time I felt like I was reading a great story told in a kids perspective. You're very clever. How old are you by the way?

Now to my opinion on this matter. I think your mother is looking for attention... Or perhaps, she has a couple of guys on her list already. They're probably not having sexual intercourse yet but in the process of building the chemistry THEN leading to that part that I've mentioned.

She doesn't want to look for attention from your father. I think she has gone to a stage where she "thinks" she can do better, through her pretentious friend, and that's probably why she's acting like this. This is the stage where break ups happens in normal relationships and they have friends to bolster them...

I think it has something to do with her age as well... She thinks she's missing something in her life and she's getting old and want to enjoy it before it gets too late.

Oh and the friend is a huge bi**h for saying that in front of you guys to your mom. She's very disrespectful... Especially for saying that in front of a very clever kid.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

Your father is very lucky to have you. 

At this point you should be very blunt with your father about what you think is goin on. Use the words physical and emotional affair. Mention the card and the 'pings'. 

Make the point that whatever 'changes' she's going through should not include behavior that jeapordizes their marriage. 

After that.....SEND HIM HERE!!!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

This is not easy for you. It must feel as if your mother is cheating on you, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

Absolutely you need to be very blunt with your father. He needs to know the truth. If he finds out later that you knew and never told him directly then he will be very hurt toward you. Do the right thing and tell him the truth


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You do need to send him here. There are other sections offering help on marriages that are in trouble but not due to infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Your dad knows about this (trust me, he's smarter than you think) and is allowing it. Maybe confront your mom and ask her of it's all worth losing the love and respect of all of you.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

My Mom did that to me when I was 16 and it took me 10 years to figure it out. There were several guys. My step-dad never knew. They divorced (not due to her cheating) and she has been having an affair with a married man for nearly 20 years now. She's the OW, he lives partially with her, she's paying part of his bills and the best....he's cheating on her. The woman he's cheating on the woman he's cheating on his wife with (get's confusing, I know) has at times confronted my Mom demanding she stay away from him. The drama! 
Tell your Dad! It will hurt but he has a right to know.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

My Mom did that to me when I was 16 and it took me 10 years to figure it out. There were several guys. My step-dad never knew. They divorced (not due to her cheating) and she has been having an affair with a married man for nearly 20 years now. She's the OW, he lives partially with her, she's paying part of his bills and the best....he's cheating on her. The woman he's cheating on the woman he's cheating on his wife with (get's confusing, I know) has at times confronted my Mom demanding she stay away from him. The drama! 
Tell your Dad! It will hurt but he has a right to know.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Alyssa,

I am sorry you are here. I really am. I have 3 boys and I see the damage to them that their mother's infidelity caused.

Your dad may be old school like me and may not believe this is something your mom would ever do. I honestly believe your mom is on a serious path to self destruction. I believe that your worst suspicions are right.

My EX had some very toxic friends that would have her party like she was a single woman... I in my infinite foolishness believed she was just having fun with the girls and didn't mind her blowing off steam. Your mom's friend is helping her destroy your family. 

This is tough. Your dad is probably working to pay for a lot of things in the house, school etc... He may not have time for your mom like he used to but he seems like a decent fellow.

My thoughts are this... She didn't want anything for mothers day because she probably feels guilty because she is doing something very bad and she isn't being a good mother and knows it.

I also believe that she put the phone down when you came in because she is having some type of inappropriate relationship with a man... I'm sorry to say that but it reeks of a common theme I have seen so many times... If she is secretive about her phone she has something to hide.

Your mother's friend is TOXIC. Your dad may be blind to this but you see it pretty clearly and there are tons of red flags here.

Your mom is not only cheating on your dad but your family as well. My EX still doesn't understand why my kids 'hate' her... 'hate' may be strong but it's a decent fit...

You might have to sit your dad down and have a 1 on 1 with him, probably like he might have with you when you were little. If you aren't an adult now, going through this process will make you one and I am sorry for that I really am. Innocence is gone and it is a shame.

Your dad may be in denial and may not want to face what your mom is doing and that is his choice. It's not that he doesn't love your mom, but knowing that your wife may be betraying you and having plausible deniability sometimes is a lot better than finding out the truth and having to face infidelity. Infidelity is the most painful thing that has ever happened to many of us.

This is hard for you but this is a point in your life where you see what you are made of. Do you stand by and watch someone you love do something so utterly wrong to someone else you love? It's not your fight, but it is as you are affected greatly by this.

It may have not gone to far so you may think of a flanking approach. You know her friend is TOXIC. You know she is convincing your mom to share in her single life and you probably have an idea that your mom has started an EA at best. 

You can confront your mother. Tell her you know what she is doing and how wrong it is. You don't have to say cheating. You can be overly vague but you can tell her about the phone, mother's day, friend...

The next time her toxic friend comes over. Walk up to her and tell her 'Thanks for ruining my family... Mom is having fun right now, but at the expense of destroying my family and I would like to personally thank you for destroying my father's happiness, my happiness and my idea that there are good people in the world like I thought my mother was...'

Make no doubt your mom will lash out at you for interfering with her fantasy life and you may get a lot of backlash for interfering.

If interfering and saying that this is 'bad' is what you feel you should do then I wish you all the best. People don't magically turn adult when they reach 18. There is an event in their life when they stand up and define who they are with their actions that make them an adult.

The best way is usually to meet things head on. I am truly sorry you are here. I really am. It helps me see the pain my kids go through even more. God bless you and I hope that whatever you choose works out best.

The card... Your mom is having an affair. What is F--d up... Your mom's friend is encouraging it. She knows it is happening. Your mom confides in her... They are in a fog of getting thrills through the sneaking around... My EX had a friend she did this with.

Your dad is going to get blindsided... You may want to help him protect himself financially etc... Your parents getting divorced at this point in your life could have serious repercussions for you going to higher learning etc... Your mom is being extremely selfish and the other woman, her friend is a total piece of crap!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Off the Wall thought. Could she be cheating with her toxic friend?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Print this and give it to your dad. Do not let him confront early. It leads to him knowing she is cheating but she is now underground and 100 times harder to bust.

Dear "Alyssa's" dad.

This is going to be one tough read. My name is "weightlifter" and I have perhaps a dozen cheating wives busted under my belt since I came to TAM about 6 months ago. I am not really known for being subtle. I am Mr hit you over the head with the truth. Your daughter is rightfully concerned about your wife and likely correct. Be proud of her, she seems quite intelligent. She sees the things that quite frankly you are likely deliberately ignoring.

If you are a numbers man, and most men are, let me lay it out for you. There is a VERY high likelyhood your wife is banging another man. Is that OK with you? I hope you are not ok with your wife being inseminated by another man. I hope the previous sentence wakes you up. Here is a number. 95%. There is at least a 95% chance your wife is having an affair. Even if they are not doing the deed she is very likely sexting him. Is that OK with you? Is another man having naked pics of your wife OK?

Yes, the CAUSE is likely a mid life crisis, and, also boredom. A good loving man is boring. Women crave excitement of alpha males. Players use this one. Google "how to seduce a married woman" There is a script for it and it is surprisingly easy. These men will often work a couple women simultaneously. One of their techniques is wedging with left handed compliments. "OH your husband must be working very hard to not ever have any time for you" is a wedge. I suspect this has been used against you given one of the red flags your daughter mentioned.

1) Buy 2 Sony ICDPX312 Voice Activated Recorder, then go to Wallmart and buy HEAVY DUTY velcro and attach it to the bottom of her car seat. ATTACH IT FIRMLY. Dont go for the RCA ones. Buy Sony. They are 50 bucks each, the sound quality is very good, response VERY fast and they dont automatically deactivate after 15 hours. The 30 dollar ones are crap. HIDE the second one wherever she talks inside the house to friends. HIDE IT WELL. USE LITHIUM BATTERIES.

If necessary, get the program Audacity. Its free from the internet. Learn how to use filters. This program can be used to lower ambient noise like engine noise from recordings. I have used it to clean up VARs for a couple other men to bring out speech their cheating wives did while talking to their boyfriends in their car. Get a set of headphones. They help. Do your var work when your wife is not around OR have youtube up and have it ready to go. If she asks you what you are doing, you are listening to your favorite music on youtube because the comp speakers are crap.

Look at the phone bill for shared cell accounts. Ill bet there is an unfamiliar phone number popping up 10 times a day either in phone or text. Don't be surprised if its hidden under a female name. 

Learn your wifes unlock pattern then get her phone when she is in the shower. This one is chancy. Look at call history etc. Learn where the history functions are exactly so you can be fast one time then do your actual looking the following opportunity.

Look up how to recover deleted texts in whatever phone you have. Look for apps like text free. Look for games she does not play... It probably has a chat feature.

Facebook. Look at her friends. Is there a male you don't know? Perhaps a female with only 1 friend? Its him hiding. Check those FB text logs.

A more difficult task is keylogging computers. "Webwatcher" has been used successfully by a number of men here.

Your wife has like 4 MAJOR red flags and half a dozen minor ones. STEEL YOURSELF.

1) DO NOT CONFRONT WITHOUT GOOD EVIDENCE!!! Your wife will shoot you down EASY. One recent story a man confronted with just 2 red flags. The hiding texting thing WHICH YOUR WIFE IS DOING!!!! and not owning up to her location then saying she was with a female friend. That friend was quite male was banging his wife for a year. Needless to say. She shot him down hardcore and acted offended his first soft confrontation. He came here, we showed him what to do and he found about 5 more red flags but no real proof until he listened to the VAR. The VAR was the smoking gun. Once he had hard proof including a PI, he broke her in a minute and she confessed a year+ long affair. 

Come to talkaboutmarriage CWI forum. Its a depressing place but we are VERY VERY good at helping the betrayed bust their cheating spouses.

PS. If you hear another man get into the car with her STOP LISTENING!!!!! and have a trusted friend listen for you and give you a heads up. Hearing your wife moan while another man is insider her will mess you up much worse than just knowing she is banging another man.

NEVER reveal VARS or TAM!!! knowledge of either or both will vastly increase her ability to cheat undetected. How you busted her is none of her damn business. Tell her it was a PI once you know who and where.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

Hi Alyssa, 

Its so ironic that you would post again. For the last couple of days Ive been thinking about you and wondering how your situation had turned out. Because I read so much and have a bad memory I couldnt remember your name to check for an update so Im glad you posted again.

I hate that you are in the situation you are in. Maybe you could leave a voice activated recorder around the house and then leave like you did the last time. Maybe you can catch her talking to someone. Or put it under the seat of her car with velcro. This shouldnt be your job but I understand your anger with her and the fact that your dad is being so dismissive is making the situation worse. 

I hope you find what you are looking for.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Alyssa,


You should consider broadening your view a bit. You seem to be convinced that your mom is cheating on your dad with some other man, and you are focused on that possibility only. 

Besides the possibility that your mom is not cheating at all, there are still two other likely possibilities here. These things do happen, even if they might blow your mind:

1. Your mom is seeing another man, but your dad already knows about it, and he's OK with it.

2. Your mom is seeing another *woman* instead of a man, and that might not bother your dad (You did mention she's spending an awful lot of time with her divorced friend). 

You can tell your father your suspicions but in the end keep in mind that it's his wife, his marriage, and not yours.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Here's a simple question to ask your Dad, if you haven't already. 

Dad, if mom was cheating on you, would you want to know? If he says no, then you have a decision to make. Either let it go, or take your own steps to investigate and subsequently confront your mother.

If he says yes, give him the letter from weightlifter.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Many red flags are there.

What do you want? What would be your goals at exposing anything?

When I was your age I help my parents through a difficult time in their marriage. I set up counseling for them and in fact went to the first session with them (at their request). I was living in New York at the time and they were in Southern PA, so it was not convinient for me. The issue was between them but they looked at me for guidance at that time. I did one session with them and that was it for me, I felt I did my part. 

There are several reasons people cheat and we don't know if your mom is there. If that is what your gut is telling you then I suspect that she is.

My son put a GPS in our car in 2011, the one that my wife drove and we busted them. I was living in another city at the time and would come home on weekends but the A started months before I even got the promotion and we were living together at the start of her A. My son wanted to do this as things did not make sense as to where his mother (my wife) said she was.

He was not as emotionally involved as me leading up to d-day. It was nice to have him involved. I did not ask him to do this.

Your situation is different. You feel like your mom is cheating and it does seem like your dad is clueless.

I will give you my take on how I would do this. I would not confront without proof and I mean solid proof. I don't know if you are up to it or not and will only say to you that I am only giving you my take on it. I would get solid proof. Leave your dad out of it for now. Don't show your cards, your suspicions, until you have solid proof. 

Your title says it all, You want to investigate, then do it, and be smart about it. VARs in the car. Try to act normally around your mom. Buy a tracphone, keep it hidden, pay cash only and pay cash only for airtime. Try texting your mom, anonymously, and see how she responds to a simple "hey sweetie, I got a new phone number," If she responds positively, send her a smiley. Ask her to forward "that special text so you can have it on the new phone". If she takes the hook it will not be long before she figures out that it is not the other person. Leave her name out of any texts. And when she responds with a who is this text, respond by saying, stop playing with me Mary, or some other name. If she responds then says oops, this is embarrassing, I just realized I typed in the wrong number in the beginning of these texts, sorry wrong person, I am lousy using these phones and leave it at that. You may get info or nothing and it will cost you around $40.00. 

When you have solid proof decide on how to confront your mother. You will have several options, directly between you and her, with you dad present, to your dad only, through a third party. 

If this plays out and is proven that your mom is in an A, I would tell your dad, "Daddy, no matter how you feel about what I did to prove mom was cheating on you, know that I had your back and will always have your back".


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Dont do the random text thing until other avenues like var and phone records have been exhausted. She will figure out it is not from him within a day then know someone is on to her. She will then take it underground and we get RDMU again.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm going to be in the minority here. I have a real problem with kids getting involved in their parents' marriage business. 
Alyssa I would suggest you get into therapy yourself. How old are you? 
This is so bad emotionally for you. You are crossing so many boundaries and doing work that isn't yours to do. 
I would suggest you ask your dad if he would want to know. If yes, show him the post from weight lifter. If not, you need to let it go. 
Make your own life for yourself and care for your family but don't play a parent or care taking role. It seems very codependent to me. 
I'm sorry that your mother has issues but you can't change her. You can only change yourself.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> I'm going to be in the minority here. I have a real problem with kids getting involved in their parents' marriage business.
> Alyssa I would suggest you get into therapy yourself. How old are you?
> This is so bad emotionally for you. You are crossing so many boundaries and doing work that isn't yours to do.
> I would suggest you ask your dad if he would want to know. If yes, show him the post from weight lifter. If not, you need to let it go.
> ...


With all the nonsense from the mother on mother's day, it is clear the mother is cheating on her children, too. So it is very much the business of the children. 

Maybe raise your concerns with a counsellor?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm not saying its not her business but I think that knowing too much about your parents' marriage and affairs can be detrimental. 
I also think that if her dad doesn't want to know she needs to leave it alone.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

By default, children are dependant on their parents. That fact doesn't mean that the child has 'issues'. Even as adults, we still want our parents, especially if they are good parents. When they are not, that creates a certain sense of emptiness. So, by definition and by nature and by no fault of our own, we are all in some way dependant on our parents....and indeed those around us to varying degrees. 

I think when a parents marriage and issues start affecting the children then it is absolutely a good thing for the children to take action in whatever way they are able to. E.g. telling them to stop arguing....parents should not row in front of their children.

However, I don't totally disagree with you diwali, but I do think all people in a family have their role to play. If one person is failing miserably, it affects the whole family.

Alyssa, I am sorry your initial chat was fruitless. There are ways to catch your mum, as mentioned above, just be very very careful. I think if you do find anything then it is definitely up to your father to confront. And to ensure your actions are not brought into it. You do not want to end up as a scapegoat for your mums anger....and she will be VERY VERY angry if and when caught. Don't be the one to bear the brunt of her wrath. You may find your father is not grateful either. Definitely find out of he wants to know 1st and foremost. Best of luck with your situation.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

That's what I'm afraid will happen.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> That's what I'm afraid will happen.


Yes, that is a big concern.

Though I think that situation would occur only if mum felt that you Alyssa, were conspiring 'against' her with your dad. That you were 'against' her. Ganging up on her. If your mum had any contrition whatsoever though, she would be absolutely mortified that you knew, and that you were reduced by her actions to spying on her, snooping. That would be an awful thing for any sane mum to feel that she had caused her daughter to do this. 

I think you just have to be ready for any eventuality. And prepared. 

If it was me, I think I would be doing exactly what you are. And if my dad didn't want to confront, I think I would have to regardless. Purely to vent how much she has hurt me and how disgusted I am with her behaviour.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

Alyssa- You're very perceptive and it looks like you spent some time here educating yourself about this topic. Well, now your dad needs some education. 

One of the typical patterns here is the astonishment husband's feel when they realize their wife might not be so loyal. They almost always feel like it can't happen to them. Sure, infidelity happens, but they always feel like they can trust their wife. She would never do anything like that to hurt the family.

Somehow your dad needs to come to this forum. He needs his eyes opened and to realize what's going on, and he has to be the one to take the appropriate steps, not you. I hope his head's not stuck too far in the sand.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

I think doing this yourself without the blessing of your father might be putting you in a bad spot. I think you should try your best to get him on board.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> This is not easy for you. It must feel as if your mother is cheating on you, too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah it does feel that way, especially to my little sister


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Off the Wall thought. Could she be cheating with her toxic friend?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought about that too, and it could be possible thinking about the friend's history. When she was going through the divorce, I remember my mom saying that she was seeing a few guys at the same time and that none of the relationships lasted more than a few months. I guess her friend could have given up on men or is insecure in relationships with men now. Also, my mom and this friend have known each other since elementary school, so I guess if my mom were to try something like this it would be easier to do it with someone she's comfortable with.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

alyssa_s said:


> Yeah it does feel that way, especially to my little sister


Alyssa, there's a book that's available Parents Who Cheat: How Children and Adults Are Affected When Their Parents Are Unfaithful: Ana Nogales Ph.D., Laura Golden Bellotti: 9780757306525: Amazon.com: Books


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

LanieB said:


> Alyssa - I remember you from your original post. I hate it that you did speak to your dad about this, and he dismissed it. I just feel very uncomfortable telling a teenage girl how to investigate her own mother! That being said, I believe I had told you how I ended up in the same kind of situation when I was a teenager (with my mother). Just because I was a kid, it didn't stop me from attempting to spy on her!
> 
> First of all, I'll say that you need to keep after your dad. Tell him to at least look at their cell phone bill to see who she is calling/texting. If she's having an affair, he will see a particular number show up a lot (# he hasn't seen before - someone other than her divorced friend). He should also try to get a look at her phone (for texts, e-mail, FB messages). I know others already mentioned (in previous post) putting a Voice-Activated-Recorder (VAR) in her car and also in a room in the house where she talks on the phone the most.
> 
> I'm sorry you're still going through this. I don't have a good feeling about things - especially since you're still so worried about it. And it's really going to be tough on you if YOU end up being the one who gets proof that she's actually involved with another man. If that happens (if you get proof), GIVE THE PROOF TO YOUR DAD. Don't be the one who confronts your mom.


Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate it. About the phone bills: Since we all use the same carrier my family's always been on one account under the same plan, but around 5 years ago I actually remember my mom splitting off because she got promoted and said she needed a different plan for work. So I guess that's another 'red flag'


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

Theseus said:


> Alyssa,
> 
> 
> You should consider broadening your view a bit. You seem to be convinced that your mom is cheating on your dad with some other man, and you are focused on that possibility only.
> ...


I've actually considered both scenarios and both are equally bothersome. I understand that it's my dad's wife and my dad's marriage, but there's three children involved here with the possibility that one decision (or indecision) impacts the whole family, not just the parents. If my mom is cheating and my dad is sweeping it under the rug then they both will lose the respect of their children. My mom for cheating, and my dad for ignoring the psychological and emotional duress caused to his children. Let's be realistic, if my mom wants to cheat and my dad lets her, the marriage might be "saved," but really that's pretty much prolonging implosion. No matter what the reasons are for allowing it to happen, both of them have disgraced the family and no one wins. And when you have a 13 year old girl that cries herself to sleep because she doesn't know why her mother's changed, you draw a line. I never said it was my marriage to babysit, this has always been about family.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

diwali123 said:


> I'm going to be in the minority here. I have a real problem with kids getting involved in their parents' marriage business.
> Alyssa I would suggest you get into therapy yourself. How old are you?
> This is so bad emotionally for you. You are crossing so many boundaries and doing work that isn't yours to do.
> I would suggest you ask your dad if he would want to know. If yes, show him the post from weight lifter. If not, you need to let it go.
> ...


I understand where you're coming from but to me it's not as black and white as you make it seem. I'm 18, and no, I won't get into therapy because there's no point. If my mom is cheating and it continues, there's nothing a therapist could say that could make me cope or feel better about her actions. Then I'll move out of the house and be bitter towards her for the rest of my life. My dad is a great man, father, and husband, there's no reason for her to need to step out. And if she's not cheating, something is still very wrong behaviorally and emotionally and I would attend therapy only if the whole family was present. I don't feel like I'm crossing any boundaries just because I literally haven't done anything yet other than coming to this board and briefly bringing up my mom's behavioral changes with my dad. You never said whether or not you think my mom is cheating. What do you think? The people on this board all think the same thing as I do, and even my 13 year old sister does. No offense, but you're not in my household and you don't see the way it effects the dynamic of our family. If the suspicions of me, my sister, and the people on this board are correct then there's only one person crossing boundaries. I've never said I wanted to change my mom, all I've wanted to do is help her and help her realize that her behavior is destructive. Saying that parents don't need to be taken care of by their children is ageism and is totally dismissive of the idea of mutual familial support. How wrong would it be if children never took care of their parents? I'm sorry you don't agree with me and I respect your opinion as well, but I'm only doing what I think is responsible for our family. I know being 18 doesn't make me an adult, but it's just a number, and there are plenty of 'adults' walking around out there who don't deserve to call themselves that. I came here to get help, okay? You don't know me and you don't have the right to say things like "You need to let it go" "You can only change yourself." Thanks for posting, but I'm not looking for condescending and pretentious 'advice.'


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> Your dad knows about this (trust me, he's smarter than you think) and is allowing it. Maybe confront your mom and ask her of it's all worth losing the love and respect of all of you.


I had been thinking this all along, but I told myself that my dad wouldn't allow something like that to happen. I know the probability that he knows is higher than I want to admit it is, because he's good at reading peoples' emotions, and when since my parents have been together for such a long time it's pretty unlikely he doesn't think something is wrong.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

alyssa_s said:


> My mom has always been stubborn, but in the past, if my dad told her she was wrong, she was wrong. Now her stubbornness surpasses my dad's word, and if he tells her she's wrong she gets even more incensed. If she wasn't cheating, I don't think we'd have a problem defusing things through communication like functional families do. But I think if she is cheating, her partner makes her feel wanted/appreciated and "the fog" (which I learned from here) makes her relationship seem perfect, which would validate her feelings that she's right and we're wrong, which would explain her unwillingness to compromise. Anyway, sorry for ranting again!


Everyone else is covering things pretty well. So I thought I'd bring this up as I find it a interesting bit.

So in the past, if your father said your mother was wrong.. she just folded and accepted his chastisement? Is this right? 
And you are also upset because she also does not accept it any more when you tell her that she’s wrong?

Is this a correct assessment of what you have said here?


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Everyone else is covering things pretty well. So I thought I'd bring this up as I find it a interesting bit.
> 
> So in the past, if your father said your mother was wrong.. she just folded and accepted his chastisement? Is this right?
> And you are also upset because she also does not accept it any more when you tell her that she’s wrong?
> ...


It was more like she accepted the reasoning behind his scolding and then understood that she was wrong. Now, if the same situation occurs, it's like my mom doesn't accept anyone's reasoning but her own. Like I said, she seems completely void of empathy and believes that she's always in the right, that her feelings are always justified, and that anyone who opposes that is in the wrong.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

alyssa_s said:


> It was more like she accepted the reasoning behind his scolding and then understood that she was wrong. Now, if the same situation occurs, it's like my mom doesn't accept anyone's reasoning but her own. Like I said, she seems completely void of empathy and believes that she's always in the right, that her feelings are always justified, and that anyone who opposes that is in the wrong.


How does your father act if your mother scolds him? Does he accept her scolding and that she is right?


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm sorry you didn't like what I had to say. That doesn't mean it was condescending. 
I just don't see how you exposing this is going to help anyone. It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. 
I think you should talk to a counselor about how to handle this so you can protect yourself and decide what is the right thing to do. Maybe someone who has experience with family systems. 

And I'm not saying you are crossing boundaries in terms of their privacy or their rights, but in terms of your role as their child. It really reminds me of an alcoholic family system where the oldest child plays the hero trying to rescue everyone and the other parent is just turning a blind eye and enabling. 
Maybe her addiction is her affair. 
Either way you are in a sick family system and you need professional help to navigate your way through without getting caught in the usual traps and roles. 
You might want to take a look here: 
http://claudiablack.com/documents/toD_docLib/13.pdf


From the page...
llowing are some examples of beliefs we hold that drive our behavior.
Beliefs of the Responsible Child: "If I don't do it, no one will."
"If I don't do this, something bad will happen, or things will get worse."
Beliefs of the Adjuster Child:
"If I don't get emotionally involved, I won't get hurt." "I can't make a difference anyway."
"It is best to not draw attention to yourself."
Beliefs of the Placater Child:
"If I am nice, people will like me."
"If I focus on someone else, the focus won't be on me and that is good." "If I take care of you, you won't leave me or reject me."
Beliefs of the Mascot Child:
"If I make people laugh, there is no pain."
Beliefs of the Acting Out Child:
"If I scream loudly enough, someone may notice me."
"Take what you want. No one is going to give you anything.


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## FlyingThePhoenix (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi Alyssa,

Your are *VERY BRAVE *coming here and defending your family like this. Your dad is one lucky “*old man* ” and your whole family will one day thank you for standing up and taking a stand.

I'm adding my words to yours here.



alyssa_s said:


> I understand where you're coming from but to me it's not as black and white as you make it seem. I'm 18, and no, I won't get into therapy because there's no point. If my mom is cheating and it continues, there's nothing a therapist could say that could make me cope or feel better about her actions. Then I'll move out of the house and be bitter towards her for the rest of my life.
> 
> *I agree, except with the last line. Whatever happens, YOU MUST remember you NOT at fault for your mother’s actions. She’s responsible for them 100%, NOT YOU! Or your sister! All you can do is to gather the information together to confirm the cheating and present it to your dad. It’s up to him to take whatever action he’s sees fit.*
> 
> ...


FTP


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

And yes I think there is a good chance she is cheating. Your dad may even know about it. 
I'm not posting this as an adult looking down on an 18 year old, it's an adult who was an 18 year old in a very sick family system. 
I'm trying to help you. Sometimes you start opening pandora's box about your parents and you learn things that can't be taken back, that aren't good for you to know. And that's whether you are 8 or 58. 
Would you really want to know the intimate details of your parents sex life or your mom's affair or find out they are swingers or something?


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Also all your posts are about other people. I'm just saying this because you remind me of me. Please put yourself back in the center and remember to take care of you and your emotions. 
This is horrible for you to be going through.


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## Regga (Jan 22, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Off the Wall thought. Could she be cheating with her toxic friend?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is exactly what I was thinking!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Alyssa,

I think you are right and I have immense respect for what you are doing. There is a huge gap of responsibility in your house and you are filling the void. You mother is being absolutely selfish and reckless... Your dad maybe ignorant as in lacking knowledge or not facing reality, that I really don't know. You and your siblings see the issue. Your mom is cheating on you.

I believe you have every right to act in the best interest of your family. I believe that you are being the strongest and wisest in your family. You are doing what is right and needed to the best of your ability. Because you are young doesn't mean that you aren't strong. You saw the burden and what it was doing to your family and you picked it up and are carrying it when no one else can. As long as you act in the best interest of your family you are doing the right thing. You know you may have to fill some of the motherly role for your siblings and show your younger sister what is right etc...

Do not let anger and bitterness consume you. Your mom is doing bad things and as this unwinds you will go through a process of pain in which you will have those emotions. At those times give your burdens over and focus on the positive.

I'm going to tell you a personal story... My EX wife had an affair with my neighbor on the left of me. We divorced and she is now dating and ... the neighbor on the right of me. I am moving as soon as I can...

Anyway, I have to travel for work. I was out of state Tuesday and Wednesday. Tuesday night she comes over to her boyfriends house (my next door neighbor)... My kids are playing baseball in my backyard... It gets late. My EX wants my kids to sleep at my neighbor's house. My oldest 12 almost 13 and his younger brother say no. So they go over my house to sleep.

My EX calls the cops on my boys and my neighbor cusses them and tells them to get off his property until cops get there... (I'm out of state...) I bought my boys a phone if they ever need me. I'm getting calls and texts... 

The cop comes and my EX and neighbor have the cop bully my sons. He tells them next time he has to come out here, he will take them to Juvy... My son stands his ground and asks the cop what law he broke. My boys are 10, 12 and 12 right now (Irish Twins) and they don't believe what their mother is doing is ok. They don't want to sleep at the neighbors house and they stood up and said what they felt was right. These are the qualities I want my sons to have when they become men. They were right and they wouldn't back down.

Now I told the neighbor that if he needs to cuss at my kids, he should do it when I'm there. (That never seems to happen...)

I also went down to the police and told them what happened and asked for the police report... There was none. I talked to the lady and she said my boys broke no laws. I have a meeting with the deputy tomorrow and I am going to tell him nicely that some of the things he did like letting my EX on my property and trying to intimidate my boys was wrong. If someone is standing up for what is right, they should not be intimidated. I will make it clear that I don't want someone bullying my kids for doing nothing wrong.

Now the consequences of standing up for what is right may not be what you want, but it doesn't mean you should not do what you believe is right. You may cause a situation to deteriorate faster than it normally would or you may help resolve it. You probably know if you sit back and do nothing that you might lose your own self respect. This is not your fault and you can't fix your mom. She has to do that!

You are young to carry such a burden and I am truly sorry, but if you do what you think is right for your family, you will never be able to blame yourself. This is not your fault. I can see that you have a sense of duty and I think that is great but it is a lot of pressure for you. I know you probably think you may not need counseling, but I go... I don't think I need it but I probably do... It helps... Your younger sister probably will need it more.

You may want to talk to your dad and have a serious F-U conversation with your mom's TOXIC friend. Also gather evidence and protect your family... Your mom is being selfish now... She could do serious financial damage to your family so be prepared.

I am sorry that you are here, and I will put you in my prayers tonight.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

You are a great person. Sometimes it takes just one person in the family to step up and face the issue square on. I feel for you and your family. My one son stepped in, spoke up, ordered a GPS, installed it and we got our proof. I could not have done that myself, I was living hours away during the week. The devastation of another discovery was horrible. Tomorrow morning my wife, my oldest son (he is special needs) and I will be meeting with my youngest son at our other home. This will be the first time my wife and my youngest son have seen each other since the discovery on February 6 2013. My son and my wife were really close and my son has not spoken to his mother in months. He is very skeptical of her change of heart and I need that balance in my life.

I still believe you should gather evidence. Weight out your options. Develop a plan and then follow through with it. VAR's at the very least, in her car and place elsewhere in the house if possible.

As far as counseling. I am a profession counselor and I don't see you needing it, you have a good heart, a good mind and a great soul. You are trying to protect your family and that my dear is admirable.


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## Crest (Feb 5, 2013)

Alyssa,

I also want to commend you for posting here. It's obvious your home life is stressful at the moment, but you're able to describe your problems in a very reasonable, articulate way.

A couple questions. First, could other factors besides an extramarital affair be causing your mom's changes? You say she has become more snappy, impatient, and uncomfortable with physical contact. Could any of this result from chronic depression, or other mental health issues?

Second, you made reference to her style getting "bolder". What exactly did you mean by this? Is it possible your mom is combating feelings of insecurity or helplessness by taking charge of the few variables in life she actually has control over (her own weight and appearance). Maybe the bold clothes are meant to project a sense of power, when she otherwise feels she has none?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I was around your age when I inadvertently tipped my Mom off to my Dad's cheating (I made a joke when my Dad was "walking in the park" for 8 hours that he must be having an affair, so that comment prompted her to look.)

I don't regret that in the slightest

what I do regret is getting too involved after their DDay
Your life is just starting and as much as your Dad will need your support, you can't let it affect your future as much as it affected mine. I hope you find that balance because I didn't.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

You want to find out what she is up to? Keylog the computer, and spyware her phone. You'll find out pdq what's going on then.

What kind of phone does she have?


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

The reason that I think it's somewhat inappropriate for you to investigate your mom is that you don't know the full context of the dynamic between your mom and dad. It's entirely possible that they have some sort of open relationship, that's not something they'd share with you. With regards to your mom's parenting style and apparent narcissism, I think you're firmly in your rights to document what's going on with her actions regarding parenting. Fidelity and being a good parent aren't inextricably linked. There's dozens of threads on here that show people in the midst of an affair who remain a dedicated parent.

I would keep a journal of your mom and dad's actions toward your younger sibling. If your dad does come around to your point of view and wanted to divorce your mom, the journal could be invaluable to custody


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

alyssa_s said:


> My dad is a great man, father, and husband, there's no reason for her to need to step out. And if she's not cheating, something is still very wrong behaviorally and emotionally


Alyssa, you're in a tough spot. For perspective on where my comments are coming from, I'm 52 yrs old, 3 kids your age and a bit older. My mom cheated on my dad and left him when I was in my mid 20's.

You don't really know anything about your parents' private interactions. You know them as your parents, whereas to each other they are spouses. Very different perspectives and very different experiences. 

You really do NOT know that your dad is a great husband. If your mom is having an affair it is not justified in any way, but there may be other factors at play you are not aware of. Perhaps your mother feels emotionally abandoned or abused by your dad. And perhaps she is just keeping the family together until the youngest leaves the house.

The affair would be very wrong even under those circumstances. However you can see how she could get there, and you could see how her motivations to keep the family together are honorable.

The other consideration is perhaps she is having some kind of mid live crisis but no affair. If you blow things up by telling your dad you suspect an affair, it could kill the marriage due to him being suspicious but not being able to get confirmation (because there is no affair to confirm in this scenario).

You could buy a VAR (and hide it very well so it is not discovered) to put where your mom makes phone calls. This could tell you very quickly if there is something going on. I am uncomfortable with you doing this but it is an option. You'd have to really keep this limited and under control. Don't get caught!!!!

Or do you have access to the cell phone bills? Think carefully for a few days before approaching your dad about it. Come up with a good story about wanting to research new phones or wanting to check up on your usage etc. Get the account log-in so you can get on privately. And for darned sure do this when there is no chance of your mother hearing. Now you can look at her call history. Figure out who that call was to when you came back for your driver license.

We keep all of the log ins to things like the cell account either automatic on the computer or kept in a document file so we can find it quickly. Your dad's computer may log in automatically to the account.

Finally, there may be other things you are not aware of which are at play. Medications? Substance abuse? Past history of some trauma in one or the other parent? You need to be very distant on dealing with your suspicions.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Confronting without proof will go no where.

Quietly hide a var in the house near where your mom takes calls.

Hide one in her car along with a realtime GPS.

Install a key logger on the PC.

Many a BS has come here with same red flags and by digging for intel they found out their WS was having an affair.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Those were spouses. Not the child! I don't think people understand how damaging this could be to her. 
There are no secrets between spouses. She is her daughter! 
Honestly I don't think she has the right to spy on her parents. Leave that for her dad to do. 
I had a friend who caught her dad making out with a family friend in the kitchen. We were 13. 
She went to the school counselor who told her to talk to her mom. She found out that they had an open relationship. Talk about being shocked. 
You have no idea what things her mom might discuss that are secrets that she shouldn't know about. This is just so wrong.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

You probably shouldn't hide a var, gps, or install a key logger. That would be very illegal. Like, go to jail illegal. A spouse can get away with it because they can always say it's shared property. You have no rights to her car, house, etc. Legally, it would be the same as a stranger recording her conversations.

What you can do is "accidentally" leave your GPS enabled phone in her car. There are even some apps which will allow you to listen in on your phone. This will allow you to have a non-criminal reason for your phone being in your car. You lost it and used the GPS and listened to it to find out where it was.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

And then find out your sister is adopted, your dad had an affair, your mom was in rehab, your grandfather is declaring bankruptcy, your uncle is a cross dresser....
See what I mean? If any of our kids did this to us I would be furious. It would take a long time to get over.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> And then find out your sister is adopted, your dad had an affair, your mom was in rehab, your grandfather is declaring bankruptcy, your uncle is a cross dresser....
> See what I mean? If any of our kids did this to us I would be furious. It would take a long time to get over.


You aren't treating your kids with gross disrespect though. You aren't abjectly failing in your duties and responsibilities as a parent. People are human, they **** up, massively sometimes (hating your mother forever would be a poor choice btw). This young woman has asked for the situation to be addressed as it slides into intolerability for her and her siblings, but was rebuffed. No, the situation is not good (is it ever, but yeah, this is worse), but I don't get the impression that sitting idly by as her family gets torn apart is something that Alyssa is going to do. She is going to take action. At least she asked for help and advice on how to do that, without setting a hornet's nest off right from the outset. If she finds something, perhaps she will return here to get opinions on what to do, and we can debate the possibilities and the possible outcomes then.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I will suggest one other thing. If you get the proof I would go to your mother with the proof, tell her you got 24 hours to tell dad or you will. Let her tell your father and then let them work it out.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> You aren't treating your kids with gross disrespect though. You aren't abjectly failing in your duties and responsibilities as a parent. People are human, they **** up, massively sometimes (hating your mother forever would be a poor choice btw). This young woman has asked for the situation to be addressed as it slides into intolerability for her and her siblings, but was rebuffed. No, the situation is not good (is it ever, but yeah, this is worse), but I don't get the impression that sitting idly by as her family gets torn apart is something that Alyssa is going to do. She is going to take action. At least she asked for help and advice on how to do that, without setting a hornet's nest off right from the outset. If she finds something, perhaps she will return here to get opinions on what to do, and we can debate the possibilities and the possible outcomes then.


Why do you assume that the OP's mother is treating her kids wiht gross disrespect? 

How exactly is her mother failing in your duties and responsibilities as a parent?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

So Alyssa did you stick a VAR under the seat of your Mothers car yet?


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Why do you assume that the OP's mother is treating her kids wiht gross disrespect?
> 
> How exactly is her mother failing in your duties and responsibilities as a parent?


If you read more toward the beginning of the thread she talks about her mother's behavior and how it has her 13 year old sister up at night crying.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

BrockLanders said:


> If you read more toward the beginning of the thread she talks about her mother's behavior and how it has her 13 year old sister up at night crying.


Also how her sister and her tried to do something with the mother on Mothers Day and she didnt want to do anything with them. She seems very self absorbed!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

BrockLanders said:


> If you read more toward the beginning of the thread she talks about her mother's behavior and how it has her 13 year old sister up at night crying.


'

I read her original thread and all of this thread. I disagree that she is treating her chidlen with "gross disrespect" and "failing in your duties and responsibilities as a parent." 

The OP says that the 13 year old is crying herself to sleep at night because of the mother's changed behavior. Their father is not doing anything about this either. So if this is proof that the mother is failing in parenting then the 'perfect' father is also failing in his responsibilities.

How often is the 13 year old crying herself to sleep. One time or every single night? 

This is why I asked why you think the OP's mother is doing these things.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LetDownNTX said:


> Also how her sister and her tried to do something with the mother on Mothers Day and she didnt want to do anything with them. She seems very self absorbed!


We don't know the family dynamics and thus do not know what is really going on with their mother. Sure on the surface it sounds like the mother was pretty self absorbed on mother's day.

I see a lot of disrespect for the mother comeing from the OP. 

She tells us that their father 'scolds' their mother. And now the OP is upset because the mother no longer tolerates being scolded by the mother. Good for the mother to finally come to a point of maturity that she will put up with being scolded my her husband. She's her husband's equal, not a child to be scolded. 

The OP also tells of situations in which she and her sister back talk to their mother. And the OP is upset because her mother shuts down the back talk. Apparently the OP has come to believe that her mother is subordinate to her. 

The OP is upset with her mother because her mother changed her password. Apparently the OP does not respect her mother's right to privacy as an adult. It seems from the mother's comment that the OP has private passwords. But she thinks that the mother has to share her passwords with the OP?

What I"m seeing is a family in which the father and children look down on the mother. The mother is have a "crisis". This often happens when women who have put up with things like husbands who "scold" them and children who back talk. At some point they mature and stand up to it. Unfortunately, the women often do not have the skills to be properly assertive so they go too far in the other direction. 

The OP said that her husband was not around on Mother's day because he was working. OP says that he's not home a lot because he works long hours. Maybe his not being at home was part of the problem that their mother had that day?

So maybe she's at the point that this mother's day she was down and depressed about her marriage and her children. We don't know. 

Completely villifying the OP's mother when we don't know her side of things is not something I'm going to get into. And I don't think villifying her mother does anything to help the OP.

OP's mom may or may not be cheating. The OP's father seems to not really care. There is a reason why he does not care and he's not sharing it with is children.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> We don't know the family dynamics and thus do not know what is really going on with their mother. Sure on the surface it sounds like the mother was pretty self absorbed on mother's day.
> 
> I see a lot of disrespect for the mother comeing from the OP.
> 
> ...


A crying 13 year old girl is the result of a mother seeking self improvement?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> And then find out your sister is adopted, your dad had an affair, your mom was in rehab, your grandfather is declaring bankruptcy, your uncle is a cross dresser....
> See what I mean? If any of our kids did this to us I would be furious. It would take a long time to get over.


Diwali, I am not trying to be rude but you have repeatedly called her a child and you act like she is 10. She isn't. She is actually a young adult and has come into her own. This is why she said you sounded condescending.

She has shown courage, resolve, and strength and she is trying to fix her family. If her parents have lied to her, perhaps since she is an adult, they should tell her the truth. I doubt that is the case.

I understand you fear for her. She however is a bird who is ready to leave the nest and she knows how to fly. She has to learn for herself, make her own mistakes etc... It is her life and her choices. She chooses not to sit by and watch bad things happen. She chooses to act. Don't give her fear. Give her wisdom.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

BrockLanders said:


> A crying 13 year old girl is the result of a mother seeking self improvement?


Please tell me the exact incident that led to the 13 year old to cry herself to sleep.

Please tell me how many times the 13 year old cries herself to sleep.

The fact is that you don't know, nor did you ask for clarification. I rather doubt that the 13 year old is cying her self to sleep every single night for over 2 years, or even most of the time.

Often time, when family dynamics change, even if they change for the better, it can cause some family members a lot of emotional pain. As a matter of fact, when people go to counseling and start to make changes in themself they are often warned that some family members might become angry and do things to try to force the person to go back to being like they were before. Generally those who try to force a person back into the family role they had before are not aware they are doing it... it's just the natural reaction.

But you don't know the answers to this. Neither do I. It seem like these are important things that should be clarified before we just all jump on the band wagon here.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I totally agree.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Whatever is going on the oldest seeks answers and the truth should not be hidden from her. She is an adult.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

So people have the right to demand to know everything about their parents?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MovingAhead said:


> Whatever is going on the oldest seeks answers and the truth should not be hidden from her. She is an adult.


The OP is not the oldest child. She's the middle child. 

According to the OP, she will not talk to the 21 year old daughter about this because the 21 year old has a good relationship with her mother. That's an interesting statement.

And no, a child (no matter the child's age) does not have a right to know waht is going on in his/her parent's marriage.

Do you have chidlren? How old are they? Do you tell them everything that goes on in your marriage?


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The OP is not the oldest child. She's the middle child.
> 
> According to the OP, she will not talk to the 21 year old daughter about this because the 21 year old has a good relationship with her mother. That's an interesting statement.
> 
> ...


I have three boys. 10,12,12. I am divorced. My cheating EX-Wife is dating my next door neighbor. When we were married, She was banging the next door neighbor on the other side of me. I do not hide things from my children. My children are boys. They know I am bipolar and I have ADD and they know I take medicine. I am not ashamed of who I am or what I do. If something in their lives will affect them, I will not hide it from them. I will prepare them. My two oldest are adopted. They have always known. They know they are my sons as much as my biological child.

If you don't want your kids to be embarrassed by your behavior, don't embarrass yourself. My kids have had it rough during the divorce. They have had to face things most kids do not ever. I have a great relationship with them. I am honest and strong with them.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> And then find out your sister is adopted, your dad had an affair, your mom was in rehab, your grandfather is declaring bankruptcy, your uncle is a cross dresser....
> See what I mean? If any of our kids did this to us I would be furious. It would take a long time to get over.


*
I think this is getting more than a little silly, now. *


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm just saying you can't unhear what has been heard.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The OP is not the oldest child. She's the middle child.
> 
> According to the OP, she will not talk to the 21 year old daughter about this because the 21 year old has a good relationship with her mother. That's an interesting statement.
> 
> And no, a child (no matter the child's age) does not have a right to know waht is going on in his/her parent's marriage.


You're wrong, I said I wouldn't talk to my sister because she DOESN'T have a good relationship with my mother. It's funny how you're chastising people for jumping to conclusions, but only when their opinions contradict yours, yet you give yourself free reign to judge my whole family using the same basis of knowledge as everyone else here. You sound extremely biased towards my situation and appear to have already taken sides when in fact you are just as oblivious as those posters you have scolded. If you can't offer objectivity then there's really no need for you to be posting here. Thanks.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> We don't know the family dynamics and thus do not know what is really going on with their mother. Sure on the surface it sounds like the mother was pretty self absorbed on mother's day.
> 
> I see a lot of disrespect for the mother comeing from the OP.


I'd like you to point out specifically where I've shown disrespect towards my mother. And you're going to have to do much better than what you had provided later on in this post, because as I will explain shortly, YOU are the one misinterpreting what is being said.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

You have such a horrible attitude. You come here for help. No one had to take time out if their day to offer you their point if view but if you don't like what we say you get enraged?


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> She tells us that their father 'scolds' their mother. And now the OP is upset because the mother no longer tolerates being scolded by the mother. Good for the mother to finally come to a point of maturity that she will put up with being scolded my her husband. She's her husband's equal, not a child to be scolded.


Actually, aren't you the one you first introduced the words "chastising" and "scolding" to the thread? All I mentioned was that at times my father has told my mom that she's wrong. Nowhere did I say he was "chastising" or "scolding" her, you were the one who began to use that terminology. My father only does this when it involves emotional stress to his children, or when my mother is completely off-base with something she says. Even then, he's firm but calm and never condescends her. My dad does treat my mother as an equal, but you wouldn't know that, would you? You're relying on misinterpreted information to support your claims which makes it easy to prove you wrong.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Alyssa,

I disagree with the ladies who posted but they really are just being motherly and want to protect you from the potential harm you may come open unintended or not. It is not that you are a child. They are mothers.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> You have such a horrible attitude. You come here for help. No one had to take time out if their day to offer you their point if view but if you don't like what we say you get enraged?


I dunno but Ele was filling in the blanks with baseless speculation and going hard on Alyssa. I'm not sure her reaction is completely out of left field.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

diwali123 said:


> You have such a horrible attitude. You come here for help. No one had to take time out if their day to offer you their point if view but if you don't like what we say you get enraged?


Neither you nor EleGirl are helping. It actually seems to me like you're going out of your way to be inflammatory. Yes I want help, but neither you or her have said anything to me that's mildly helpful. You've questioned my maturity and been condescending towards me this whole time. EleGirl has slandered my father on the basis of misinterpreted information, has falsely accused me of disrespect towards my mother, and is making assumptions. I'm grateful for all the responses I received, and just because you think you're doing me a favor doesn't mean I have to put up with people attacking mine and my family's character.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The OP also tells of situations in which she and her sister back talk to their mother. And the OP is upset because her mother shuts down the back talk. Apparently the OP has come to believe that her mother is subordinate to her.


Please be more specific. Where did I mention back talking my mother? What makes you think I believe my mother is subordinate to me?


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

alyssa_s said:


> Neither you nor EleGirl are helping. It actually seems to me like you're going out of your way to be inflammatory. Yes I want help, but neither you or her have said anything to me that's mildly helpful. You've questioned my maturity and been condescending towards me this whole time. EleGirl has slandered my father on the basis of misinterpreted information, has falsely accused me of disrespect towards my mother, and is making assumptions. I'm grateful for all the responses I received, and just because you think you're doing me a favor doesn't mean I have to put up with people attacking mine and my family's character.


Alyssa, it's a public forum and many people with differing experiences will post. Some of them may inject whatever is going on in their life into the narrative. It will make it easier for you if you take the advice that is useful to you and discard that which is not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*This is starting to get rather unpleasant and rather personal. For no good reason that I can see...*

Could the phasers be re-dialled to the 'stun' setting? Please?


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Alyssa,

I'm not trying to put words in anyones mouth, but people here can be very emotional about infidelity as it has hit many of us very hard. You made your point.

Let's get back on track and tell us how things are progressing. You need to let it go... There could be a lot worse in store for you in the future so save your energy.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> *This is starting to get rather unpleasant and rather personal. For no good reason that I can see...*
> 
> Could the phasers be re-dialled to the 'stun' setting? Please?


No! Prepare the photon torpedoes!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The OP is upset with her mother because her mother changed her password. Apparently the OP does not respect her mother's right to privacy as an adult. It seems from the mother's comment that the OP has private passwords. But she thinks that the mother has to share her passwords with the OP?


No, I wasn't "upset" that my mother did this. I just brought this up as a 'red flag,' and no, I don't think I'm entitled to have access to my mother's e-mail. Again, this was just said to add to the point that my mom had been becoming increasingly private, which led to my suspicions. Nowhere did I say I expected to be privileged with my mother's login information.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm not injecting anything. 
Don't ask for advice if you don't want it. 
I truly wish the best for you and your family. You seem to be in a lot of pain and I hope that you can find a way to take care of yourself while you try to fix this problem.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> I'm not injecting anything.
> Don't ask for advice if you don't want it.
> I truly wish the best for you and your family. You seem to be in a lot of pain and I hope that you can find a way to take care of yourself while you try to fix this problem.


Im not talking about you 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> I'm not injecting anything.
> Don't ask for advice if you don't want it.
> I truly wish the best for you and your family. You seem to be in a lot of pain and I hope that you can find a way to take care of yourself while you try to fix this problem.


I told you earlier you were antagonizing her. She is not a child. All you will do is piss her off and not let her focus on what is important...

Would like to get to the important stuff tonight before I take kids out... just sayin...


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm out.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

Ok Alyssa, how are you going to get your dad to see reality? As difficult as this would be, as I have a daughter myself, how do your parents looks measure up? Has mom had any recent weight loss or cosmetic surgery?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The OP said that her husband was not around on Mother's day because he was working. OP says that he's not home a lot because he works long hours. Maybe his not being at home was part of the problem that their mother had that day?
> 
> So maybe she's at the point that this mother's day she was down and depressed about her marriage and her children. We don't know.
> 
> ...


My dad was working on Mother's Day for the whole family. My parents are paying back a loan from our house, my sister's about to go into grad school, I'm about to enter college this fall, and my sister will be doing so in about 5 years. My mom wants to retire early, so my dad decided to take on a heavier workload. He didn't even have time for his own mother this mother's day. Just so you know, it's not like my dad did nothing for my mom - he actually took her out to dinner the Friday before Mother's Day to her favorite restaurant. You're chastising other posters for villifying my mother "without knowing her side of things" yet you do the same to the rest of my family. I don't think that helps me out much, either. You're accusing my dad of "not caring" which is completely false. I think I'm more qualified to speak for him than you, and I can say your speculation that he "doesn't care" is completely false. My father grew up with infidelity and he knows what that can do to both marriage and family. And I'm not being disrespectful to my mother at all. I'm doing this because I want to help her, and I've said a lot less than I could have if I actually was the way you make me out to be. You don't know some of the things my mother has said to my siblings and I, but to give you an example, she once screamed at my sister and, saying that "she could drown us right now" just because my sister spilled juice on the carpet and we didn't do a good job cleaning it up. My dad told her that she shouldn't be talking to her kids that way and she yelled in his face. Good for her for standing up, right? I love my mom, that's why this situation is so troubling and it's why I so desperately want to know what's happening to her. Since you don't get that I don't think it's right that you make personal attacks on my family and accuse me of being out to get her. Thanks for defending my mom, but she doesn't need to be defended if she's doing nothing wrong.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> And then find out your sister is adopted, your dad had an affair, your mom was in rehab, your grandfather is declaring bankruptcy, your uncle is a cross dresser....
> See what I mean? If any of our kids did this to us I would be furious. It would take a long time to get over.


Digging just to get dirt for sport is not the same as fighting and protecting a family from an affair.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

BrockLanders said:


> Alyssa, it's a public forum and many people with differing experiences will post. Some of them may inject whatever is going on in their life into the narrative. It will make it easier for you if you take the advice that is useful to you and discard that which is not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry. The situation is hard for me and some of the posters were making it harder on me. Thanks, I will ignore unhelpful posts from now on.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

alyssa_s said:


> I'm sorry. The situation is hard for me and some of the posters were making it harder on me. Thanks, I will ignore unhelpful posts from now on.


No need for apologies, people give tough advice here. You're 18 and seem pretty mature for your age. You have no reason to defend yourself. This isn't a trial, it's about getting you some help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

alyssa_s said:


> My dad was working on Mother's Day for the whole family. My parents are paying back a loan from our house, my sister's about to go into grad school, I'm about to enter college this fall, and my sister will be doing so in about 5 years. My mom wants to retire early, so my dad decided to take on a heavier workload. He didn't even have time for his own mother this mother's day. Just so you know, it's not like my dad did nothing for my mom - he actually took her out to dinner the Friday before Mother's Day to her favorite restaurant. You're chastising other posters for villifying my mother "without knowing her side of things" yet you do the same to the rest of my family. I don't think that helps me out much, either. You're accusing my dad of "not caring" which is completely false. I think I'm more qualified to speak for him than you, and I can say your speculation that he "doesn't care" is completely false. My father grew up with infidelity and he knows what that can do to both marriage and family. And I'm not being disrespectful to my mother at all. I'm doing this because I want to help her, and I've said a lot less than I could have if I actually was the way you make me out to be. You don't know some of the things my mother has said to my siblings and I, but to give you an example, she once screamed at my sister and, saying that "she could drown us right now" just because my sister spilled juice on the carpet and we didn't do a good job cleaning it up. My dad told her that she shouldn't be talking to her kids that way and she yelled in his face. Good for her for standing up, right? I love my mom, that's why this situation is so troubling and it's why I so desperately want to know what's happening to her. Since you don't get that I don't think it's right that you make personal attacks on my family and accuse me of being out to get her. Thanks for defending my mom, but she doesn't need to be defended *if she's doing nothing wrong.*


Or not cheating, but instead, having some kind of a breakdown?:scratchhead:

You said your father has suffered from the results of infidelity as a child. That might be why he is ignoring the red flags? Protecting himself from the possibility of cheating even existing?


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Alyssa Sorry this has hit you at this point of your life. We here at TAM tell people to trust their instincts. I do not think your age is a factor by the way you tell your circumstances. 

I do agree you should continue to get to the truth. When something of concrete evidence comes to lite, then you must go to your father with what you have discovered. It must be irrefutable.

At that point you must back away and detach .Let your father handle it from there. Keep a low profile stay vigilant and stay open minded. Do not jump to conclusions. Remember you do not want this to be so.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Or not cheating, but instead, having some kind of a breakdown?:scratchhead:
> 
> You said your father has suffered from the results of infidelity as a child. That might be why he is ignoring the red flags? Protecting himself from the possibility of cheating even existing?


I guess my mom could just be having some kind of breakdown. But her behavior changes have been going on for a while so I'm afraid that at some point it escalated. I guess it would have been better to nip the problem at the bud but she never wants to talk about anything.

And yeah, that may be why my dad's ignoring the red flags, but I also think that in general he just trusts her a lot.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

There was some advice a while back about you confronting your mother, giving her an ultimatum to come clean to your father. I think that would be an unwise choice, but it would be possible to deliver the ultimatum anonymously. Anyway, that's getting too far down the road. The first steps are simply to figure out just what the heck is going on, and assess the damage. Then, if needed, a plan can be calmly worked out, and put into action, after careful consideration. The key is to set forth ways to get information, and to never, ever do anything rash, on the spur of the moment. Also of prime import, should push come to shove, never, ever, not even indirectly, reveal your sources. Never.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

alyssa_s said:


> I guess my mom could just be having some kind of breakdown. But her behavior changes have been going on for a while so I'm afraid that at some point it escalated. I guess it would have been better to nip the problem at the bud but she never wants to talk about anything.
> 
> And yeah, that may be why my dad's ignoring the red flags, but I also think that in general he just trusts her a lot.


I wish there was more I could suggest. 

I think in your initial thread school counsellors were mentioned? Could they help?

The situation will, eventually, be noticed by your dad. Under those circumstances just be there for him and give him the address of this forum.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

BrockLanders said:


> Ok Alyssa, how are you going to get your dad to see reality? As difficult as this would be, as I have a daughter myself, how do your parents looks measure up? Has mom had any recent weight loss or cosmetic surgery?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know how whether or not my dad sees what I see. As for my parents' looks, my dad is better looking that the average guy his age and he does a lot of physical activity. A lot of people compliment my mom on her looks also, and she looks about five years younger than she actually is so I would say they're both about the same level of attractiveness. But yes, recently my mom has been more active. She's been taking walks, doing aerobics programs and has been talking about buying an elliptical machine for the house. I think she's probably lost about 10 pounds this past year.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> I wish there was more I could suggest.
> 
> I think in your initial thread school counsellors were mentioned? Could they help?
> 
> The situation will, eventually, be noticed by your dad. Under those circumstances just be there for him and give him the address of this forum.


Yes at my school we're assigned counselors alphabetically on the basis of our last name's first initial, and my counselor was pretty dismissive of me when I talked to her so I won't be going back to her. You're not allowed to see another counselor other than your assigned one, but my school has a psychologist that I could make an appointment with.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> I was around your age when I inadvertently tipped my Mom off to my Dad's cheating (I made a joke when my Dad was "walking in the park" for 8 hours that he must be having an affair, so that comment prompted her to look.)
> 
> I don't regret that in the slightest
> 
> ...


dysfunctionalparents.com...........we should start a new thread for forum discussion! How many fuc*ed up parents have fuc*ed up offspring! I wonder how many pathetic BS's are also borne from fuc*ed up parents. Probably not so many. But I bet there is some dysfunction that makes a BS want to R with a W.

I am by no means a passer by on this. I have ****ed up parents and ****ed up offspring. My parents are mother who is ****ed up and step father who is even more so but been there since I was born. He is an unhelpful prick! And highly manipulative. My mother is a doormat so goes along with him. My ex partner has done his best to undermine me at every opportunity and been abusive and difficult. Even when it comes to the kids being out of order. He bolsters their teenage righteousness! He has shown them very skillfully how to disrespect their mother! 

Oh what a minefield!

Alyassa, just do what you feel is right and be aware of EVERY consequence, and be prepared for ANY eventuality. And the only way for that I truly believe is to discuss every step here. 

Threads are very forceful on occasion, but you being a daughter concerned about your mum, it brings the hot headedness to a minimum and I think you are getting great advice. Keep posting for every step you need because it will be good advice!

EDIT: It WAS great advice on the whole. I wrote this before I got through the whole thread and before I had read a couple of posters particularly bad posts!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> Those were spouses. Not the child! I don't think people understand how damaging this could be to her.
> There are no secrets between spouses. She is her daughter!
> Honestly I don't think she has the right to spy on her parents. Leave that for her dad to do.
> I had a friend who caught her dad making out with a family friend in the kitchen. We were 13.
> ...


They had an open relationship? Fine. Surely the shock was more about the dishonesty of the relationship and not the finding out! Though the nature of the relationship itself suggests totally inappropriate examples for the children to lead. That is FULLY why.relationships like these are not fully open. Essentially, they are not healthy. That is why they are kept secret!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> And then find out your sister is adopted, your dad had an affair, your mom was in rehab, your grandfather is declaring bankruptcy, your uncle is a cross dresser....
> See what I mean? If any of our kids did this to us I would be furious. It would take a long time to get over.


My kids would know the truth. Then there is no uncomfortable untruths to hide. My kids would know the truth on everything that affected them!


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## FlyingThePhoenix (Apr 11, 2013)

diwali123 said:


> I'm out.


Alyssa came here for support and sage advice to her problem all I’ve seen you do is bully her with your single words, that have NO constructive meaning what so ever to her problem.

Your response to Alyssa: *“I’m out”* 

Okay….

My response to Alyssa: *“I’m in”* 
*Deal with that!*


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## FlyingThePhoenix (Apr 11, 2013)

Alyssa, 

Q. Can you confirm the toxic friend is still in your mother’s life? 
Q. Are there any other toxic type friends your mother is friends with?
Q. What evidence do you have thus far you can confidently present to your dad that will get his attention?

Please ignore those posts that go off–topic okay. Hang in there!

FTP


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Alyssa. Let me ask a silly question.

What are your plans? Are you going James Bond? Are you giving your father my letter?


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

Alyssa: forget about your school therapist, they're probably a moron. Keep coming here. Have a thick skin but honestly the people here8
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Alyssa, 

I trusted my ex implicitly. I never will trust anyone like that again. Do what you feel is right. Get rid of the TOXIC friend. No good will come out of that.


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

Alyssa, I've read both of your threads and I am super impressed with your character. You are very mature, articulate, and strong. Since i'm in bed on my ipod and it takes a long time to write, this will be brief, but tomorrow I'll write more. I was pretty disgusted with a couple of the posters remarks to you. You've got enough to think about- and it really angered me to see the disrespect you were shown. Just ignore the bad posts or verrry briefly dismiss them. 

As far as you getting involved, it is your choice not ours. You are doing what you are doing for the right reasons. I'm glad you have got an awesome dad. I'm speculating here, but it sounds llike so many men on TAM he doesn't want to see all the red flags. Humans have powerful tools of the mind including the ability/disability to rationalize all events, behaviors, etc. Your dad may need rhe smoking gun or something that shocks him out of denial. 

Ultimately you do what you have to. While diwali irritated me, he made one valid point- that once you learn details you can't unlearn them. It's good to be aware of this point. That said you are 18 and wise beyond your years. Your judgment is better than a lot of "adults" for sure. 

Somebody said that it was illegal to spy and whatever. Maybe but serioisly what judge or jury would convict a teen trying to save her family. And i doubt her mother would report it to rhe police. 

Remember this is not your fault. But you have the right - though not responsibility- to do what you believe is right in your situation. Based on my experiences on tam since november when my world was turned upside down, i would say your mom is very likely to be cheating already. You need more evidence to be sure- or your dad does. Gosh i am so sorry you are here. Lately i've been really depressed about the steady loss of innocence in life. You don't deserve to lose it, but then again we all eventually do. 

Oh and skip the school counselor. The psychologist may be worth a shot. You'll be able to tell after meeting. But what about if you asked your dad to pay for pych services weekly. That might be the wake up call for him. I would suggest you do that both so that you can get professional help and as a way for your dad to begin seeing the toll this is taking on you. 

I'm thinking of you as i go to sleep. I wish i could send you an invisable hug! You're not alone so long as you're here. Don't forget to take care of yourself and to give youself some time to not think about painful stuff. Will write more and hopefully more articulately when i'm on the computer tomorrow. 

Alyssa, i'm in. Hang in there. Best, totallyunexpected
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I for one applaud your wanting prevent your mother destroying your family. If she is having an affair your family has a right to know, and if she isn't her bevahior is moving in that direction. So I don't understand why people are jumping on you so much.

All nembers of a family needs to protect the family. A parent having an affair is not out of bounds for discovery by their children.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

alyssa_s said:


> Actually, aren't you the one you first introduced the words "chastising" and "scolding" to the thread? All I mentioned was that at times my father has told my mom that she's wrong. Nowhere did I say he was "chastising" or "scolding" her, you were the one who began to use that terminology. My father only does this when it involves emotional stress to his children, or when my mother is completely off-base with something she says. Even then, he's firm but calm and never condescends her. My dad does treat my mother as an equal, but you wouldn't know that, would you? You're relying on misinterpreted information to support your claims which makes it easy to prove you wrong.


You are the one who characterized your father as "scolding your mother". You used that word first in post #35....




alyssa_s said:


> It was more like she accepted the reasoning behind his *scolding* and then understood that she was wrong. Now, if the same situation occurs, it's like my mom doesn't accept anyone's reasoning but her own. Like I said, she seems completely void of empathy and believes that she's always in the right, that her feelings are always justified, and that anyone who opposes that is in the wrong.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

alyssa_s said:


> Actually, aren't you the one you first introduced the words "chastising" and "scolding" to the thread? All I mentioned was that at times my father has told my mom that she's wrong. Nowhere did I say he was "chastising" or "scolding" her, you were the one who began to use that terminology. My father only does this when it involves emotional stress to his children, or when my mother is completely off-base with something she says. Even then, he's firm but calm and never condescends her. My dad does treat my mother as an equal, but you wouldn't know that, would you? You're relying on misinterpreted information to support your claims which makes it easy to prove you wrong.


Are you saying that your father is always right and your mother is always wrong in these cases? Does your mother not have a right to her own opinions and thoughts?

How often does your mother tell your father that he is wrong? How does your father react to her telling him that he's wrong?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

alyssa_s said:


> Neither you nor EleGirl are helping. It actually seems to me like you're going out of your way to be inflammatory. Yes I want help, but neither you or her have said anything to me that's mildly helpful. You've questioned my maturity and been condescending towards me this whole time. EleGirl has slandered my father on the basis of misinterpreted information, has falsely accused me of disrespect towards my mother, and is making assumptions. I'm grateful for all the responses I received, and just because you think you're doing me a favor doesn't mean I have to put up with people attacking mine and my family's character.


Generally people come here for advice and are looking for different points of view. They are not looking for the other posters to simply agree with them. 

You apparently only want to hear from those who agree with you. So that's what you are getting. And you go after anyone who does not agree with you or who has an alternate point of view in anger. 

Your mother might be cheating. Or she might not be cheating.

Have you sat down and talked to your mother about what you perceive as the changes in her?


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey Alyssa---1st as to the school counselors---they mainly take courses, on how to deal with you, and your problems, also how to get you thru school---so stay away from any counseling from your school---If you want advise---go to a pro. who deals in marital and family problems

Lot of red flags as to your ma. the nights she stayed in a hotel---all could have been as part of an A----her being pis*ed off at you on Mothers Day---very possibly cuz she couldn't be with her lover (if she has one), cuz he himself is probably married, and had to be with his family----holidays are a major problem for A. participants----lots of other indicators, you know them, I am sure

Also your ma must be close to that magic # of 50----so that could be causing her short temper---she doesn't like what she sees at 50 and beyond----her doing all the things to spruce herself up physically---she wants to be back in her 30's, and she is trying to show it physically----facing 50 and beyond, is not a happy time for a lot of people---facing retirement, is even worse----so those probably factor in

Her best friend---is toxic as he*l-----as she is putting your ma in harms way, everytime they go out, cuz I am very sure, they are hitting, bars, clubs, nightspots, dance joints---what have you---and even if your ma---isn't in any prolonged A---she probably has had lots of contact with other men---cuz that's what all of those spots are for---to meet and hook up---actually you good play PI, and follow her some night and she where she goes, and what she does----go with one or two of your friends, and tail your ma.

Your father----he may know, he may suspect, he may have his gut wrenching him-------what he is actually thinking---who knows--------a possible scenario for him is that he is not far from retirement---and even if his wife is cheating---if he doesn't address it---he doesn't know it is happening FOR SURE---so he doesn't have to face the pain and hurt---also if he knows about it, and has to address it---his carefree days, and peace of mind are gone---he know lives in a nuclear winter---and has to deal with trying to either haul your ma out of her A---or going to D--------all of these outcomes, take him out of his basically peaceful lifestyle------so it is possible he ignores, cuz he doesn't wanna deal with it at 50 yrs, and beyond, it is just easier at this point to pretend he doesn't know----and go on with life as it is

as to what you do---that is up to you----you are a part of the family---and as kids, the way the family lives, and functions, does impact you, and your future, as does it impact your sisters---so IMHO----feel free to deal with this as you wish

I don't think you need to have hardcore evidence---to go to your mother and tell her, she is way out of line, and not following the married script, she is following the script of a single woman----and you can point out all the things she is doing----trying to look younger, going out all the time with a single divorcee, who is out looking for men---the last part are things a married wife and mother DOES NOT DO---be prepared for an argument---but it is, what it is

You also have the right to get into your mothers face about the way she treats you and your sisters----she is abusing you by her nastiness----and she has no right to do so---if she doesn't like things you do---she can civilly tell you about what she doesn't like, and that should be the end of it---she has no right to scream/yell/be nasty/threaten, or anything else

What you might want to do, if you can get your other 2 sisters to agree is to find an intervention specialist---and force both of your parents into an intervention-------your reasoning---is that the family is being torn apart---and all this crap needs to stop---your mother needs to act like a wife and mother, your father needs to pay attention to what is actually happening, and not turn the other cheek-----and you and your sisters, need help in restoring the family to a situation of peace/love/harmony/happiness

Good luck to you, cuz this ain't gonna be easy


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> You are the one who characterized your father as "scolding your mother". You used that word first in post #35....


That was a poor choice of words by me, but I was tired when I wrote that. You were the one that assumed he was "chastising" her in post #34, that's probably why I said that without thinking. Let's get this straight right now though, there is no "scolding" or "chastising" involved unless my mom does something that seriously crosses the line.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Are you saying that your father is always right and your mother is always wrong in these cases? Does your mother not have a right to her own opinions and thoughts?
> 
> How often does your mother tell your father that he is wrong? How does your father react to her telling him that he's wrong?


You are seriously trying to push me, aren't you? Yes, obviously my mother is entitled "to her own opinions and thoughts." Since you aren't aware of my family's dynamic let me tell you this - my mother is given the most slack out of everyone in the family by my father. But there's a certain point where he draws the line. I already mentioned the time where my mom told my sister and me that she wanted to kill us, but there's nothing wrong with that, right? After all my mom is entitled to her own thoughts and opinions and how dare my dad stick up for his kids. Or when she calls my little sister a "f*cking retard" because she wants to try to cook dinner but doesn't know how to use a Cuisinart. Or when she calls me a "b*tch" and says "f*ck you" to me when I asked her calmly and nicely not to verbally abuse my little sister. Or how about when my little sister cut herself while my mom was working and too busy to notice, so my sister yelled just to get her attention and she responds with "I don't care what's happening to you, you don't f*cking talk to me like that," leaving her to deal with it herself. Yeah, she's entitled to those opinions and my dad deserves to be put in jail for telling her she's wrong.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> How often does your mother tell your father that he is wrong? How does your father react to her telling him that he's wrong?


My mother rarely tells my dad he's wrong. What she does is talk bad about him to us when he's not around, expecting us to sympathize with her, and when that happens she opens up a verbal assault. My father reacts like anyone would. He's stubborn, so if he thinks she's wrong he won't submit at first, but if my mom persists, he'll let her have her way eventually. If he thinks he's wrong, he'll admit it and apologize.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Generally people come here for advice and are looking for different points of view. They are not looking for the other posters to simply agree with them.
> 
> You apparently only want to hear from those who agree with you. So that's what you are getting. And you go after anyone who does not agree with you or who has an alternate point of view in anger.


No, I'm angry because you're throwing around assumptive and baseless 'hypotheses' like you know they're true. I came here for help on deciding whether or not I should investigate my mother. Keeping that goal in mind, what can be gained out of victimizing my mother, accusing her husband and her kids of treating her like sh*t when you don't even know the half of it, and just being inflammatory overall. It sounds like you already have your opinions formed about what's going on, and everything you say is untrue and it sounds silly. You aren't agreeing or disagreeing with me, because I don't know what to do. I feel sick for posting here, because it's my mom. Do you think I want her to be cheating? Do you think I want my parents to divorce? No, I want things to be the way they were when she was a selfless, caring, and understanding mother to her three daughters. So no, you're not doing anything but conducting a witch hunt for a bad husband and three kids who don't respect their mother. You think there's favoritism, that's only true for my older sister. If I really thought my mother was a subordinate I wouldn't be asking for advice on here. I would do whatever was needed to out her for every single wrong she's ever committed, and I would have no problem telling my father that I think his wife is cheating on him. The only reason why I'm even replying to you is because you continue to sling mud at my family and I. If you haven't noticed, there are actually a variety of opinions and suggestions in this thread. I haven't responded negatively to most of them, and that's because most offer objectivity. Even when you ask questions, you can tell where your bias lies. For example in your post #34 you didn't ask how he tells my mom he's wrong, your "how does your father chastise your mother." If you were an attorney in a legal court I think that would be considered leading. You don't even seem to care for the fact that my mom could be committing adultery, what you seem to be getting at is that my mom's changes in behavior are at the fault of her family. And if you knew anything about our family you'd know that's anything but the truth, but you don't, and so here you are, continuing to do what you have done. Yes, I've tried to talk to my mom about her changes, and she doesn't think she's doing anything wrong. Even before I can even say anything besides "Mom, I want to talk to you about something that happened between us," she'll say she feels attacked and that she doesn't want to talk about it. I've tried to be nothing but understanding towards her, but as I've said multiple times, she is never empathetic towards me. When I do get to talk to her about it, she always interrupts me and barely listens. It's like instead of listening to what I say she's planning her next rebuttal and in the process filters out what I say. Several times she's made it clear that she doesn't care what I think, and through her actions I can tell she wants to be felt sorry for and wants a shoulder to cry on but won't offer the same to me or my sisters. I'm always calm when I approach her but every time we've had a talk about her behavior I walk away crying with my mom still yelling at my backside.

You actually remind me of how my mom can be sometimes, maybe you see that resemblance too.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

FlyingThePhoenix said:


> Alyssa,
> 
> Q. Can you confirm the toxic friend is still in your mother’s life?
> Q. Are there any other toxic type friends your mother is friends with?
> ...


Hi,

The toxic friend is still in my mom's life - I think they've gone out at least twice this month.

My mom does have a lot of single friends, several have had various types of cosmetic procedures done and have encouraged her to do the same. There's only one other friend that I can specifically name as being toxic with specific regard to relationships, and that's because I know she cheated on a boyfriend of hers and didn't see anything wrong with it.

All I have as far as evidence is a gut feeling and my list of concerning behavior, but my intuition has been wrong before and my mom's behavior could be due to various things. So basically, nothing that I would be comfortable sharing with him at this point, other than my concerns about her behavior, which I already had a conversation with him about.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Alyssa. Let me ask a silly question.
> 
> What are your plans? Are you going James Bond? Are you giving your father my letter?


I don't know what to do yet. I definitely won't be giving my dad your letter unless I know for sure that my mom is cheating on him. It's really hard though, because I love my mom and it makes me feel sick that I'm doing this. But then she'll do something that makes me remember why I started looking for help in the first place. So I guess the only thing to do is find out what's going on so I can stop trying to guess, and I guess since I'll be going to the mall this weekend I'll buy two or three voice recorders, so that's the short term plan at least.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

Crest said:


> Alyssa,
> 
> I also want to commend you for posting here. It's obvious your home life is stressful at the moment, but you're able to describe your problems in a very reasonable, articulate way.
> 
> ...


Yes it's possible that my mom could be acting this way for reasons other than cheating. It's just that I don't know what they are either than the fact that she's turning 50 and could be having a mid-life crisis. But either way, I think even if cheating is the cause of her behavioral changes it would be a consequence of the road she's heading down. My mom has told us she didn't have the best childhood and when she talks about some of the problems she had with her parents, particularly her mother, she still sounds upset and bitter. Once I thought that my mom may be bi-polar, but she was never diagnosed or if she was she never told anyone.

As for the bolder clothes thing, the first thing I noticed was that she was buying brighter colors, skinnier jeans, lower cut shirts, and she wanted these Lululemon yoga pants I had which are basically tights. Then I noticed her work attire changed - she used to only wear suits with moderately sized heels but the heels are getting higher, she's started wearing blouses with skirts also, and sometimes she doesn't even wear pantyhose when she wears a skirt.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> You have such a horrible attitude. You come here for help. No one had to take time out if their day to offer you their point if view but if you don't like what we say you get enraged?


I am shocked! Totally speechless! 

And Elegirl, I have always loved your posts, well put, thoughtful, good points. And yet, your posts previous to the one quoted above are quite shocking. If a man came along with all the red flags Alyssa has presented, all would be saying 'yeah, you need to investigate, big red flags for sure'. 

And yet Alyssa has come here wanting to investigate and she has 2 good posters patronising her. 

What would you do if your mum suddenly became distant and distracted. No interest in you, and then started acting all suspicious with lots of red flags? Would you just ignore it and carry on in your 16 (is that how old you are Alyssa?) year old life of eat, sleep, boys, friends, study, work, not being looked after by mum? 

I would say that any child who is suspicious of 1 parent cheating on another will want to investigate. 

Funnily enough, I am one of those too! I just remembered....weird how just writing that last paragraph triggered me off....yes, I found something dodgy on my dads computer history and wish to investigate more. However, I don't even know if my mum would be interested. I will have to investigate and then ask her I think. It was very odd! This was from a martyr-ish bloke who has never watched porn! 

If my mum doesn't want to know the information then so be it. I will have it if she does..... though I don't think it will get to that. I think he is just looking at porn a lot....time will tell. 

I am 38 and I wish to investigate further!


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

Remains said:


> I am shocked! Totally speechless!
> 
> And Elegirl, I have always loved your posts, well put, thoughtful, good points. And yet, your posts previous to the one quoted above are quite shocking. If a man came along with all the red flags Alyssa has presented, all would be saying 'yeah, you need to investigate, big red flags for sure'.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'm sure they meant well but it was really unnecessary to attack my family or insinuate that we're the reason my mom's acting like this, I guess I feel the need to dispute that.
And I'm 18 but your description of my life is pretty accurate lol


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

Anyway, I probably shouldn't be up now. Thanks to everyone who's been trying to help me so far. I think what I'll do is buy some voice recorders this weekend and figure out where I should put them. Goodnight


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> You are the one who characterized your father as "scolding your mother". You used that word first in post #35....


Please, stop being picky. Your posts were quite patronising.

Regardless, Alyssa put the word in a general way, you took it and twisted it into a negative. Because a husband scolds a wife, it doesn't make her a poor abused 1950's good little housewife trying to keep her cross husband happy. This is not about women's liberation and equality in the household! If you can't scold your partner in a marriage then it is crap IMO.

I do that to my fella all the time! He takes it in the way it was intended, and usually makes a joke of refusing to do as I ask. He scolds me all the time, my reaction can be anything from sorry to oh shut up! We get along brilliantly and have a right laugh.

The word may have been used in Alyssa's post, but it did not appear to have the connotation that you later placed in it.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

alyssa_s said:


> Anyway, I probably shouldn't be up now. Thanks to everyone who's been trying to help me so far. I think what I'll do is buy some voice recorders this weekend and figure out where I should put them. Goodnight


Is there any way you can check her phone or phone bill first? Or other things? 

I am just a little worried that the VAR's might be a bit overly upsetting. You cannot un-know information, and you cannot un-hear it either. However, they are one of the fastest and most condemning ways to get the info you are after.

 goodnight.


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## FlyingThePhoenix (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi Alyssa,

From what you've said you understand that some of your mother's friends are toxic friends. Now I'm going to give my view on what a toxic friend(s) is/are. This DOES MEAN that your mother has done anything wrong YET as all YOU have, are SUSPICIONS that you have YET to confirm. 



alyssa_s said:


> Hi,
> 
> The toxic friend is still in my mom's life - I think they've gone out at least twice this month.
> 
> My mom does have a lot of single friends, several have had various types of cosmetic procedures done and have encouraged her to do the same. There's only one other friend that I can specifically name as being toxic with specific regard to relationships, and that's because I know she cheated on a boyfriend of hers and didn't see anything wrong with it.


*My definition of TOXIC FRIEND(s):
Foot loose and fancy free life style to pursue a life style with no commitments of any kind. They are miserable, sad and lonely and need the company of other likeminded people to feed their life style. They DO NOT CARE if they are single or married. They just want them to become like themselves to continue their foot loose and fancy free life style.*

_(I’m actually holding back some words because of your age, but you’ve shown us you’re slightly wiser than your age. But you know EXACTLY what I mean by the statement above, Right? As you grow older you and your siblings will come across these types’ people as well. *STAY AWAY FROM THEM!*)_

Your mother's toxic friend(s) that are single and divorced are most likely showing her what a single life use to be like before she was married. Her toxic friend(s) want company and your mother is giving them her time, while pushing your dad to work longer hours because she wants to retire early. While your dad is working longer hours, she is changing her clothes and appearance to match those of her toxic friend(s) because they are, or, are in the process of doing it themselves.

The card you found with the intimate message, means only one thing to me, she is also getting the attention from another man or men who are seeing the same changes you have noticed in her as well. The only difference here is your mother likes or wants this new attention she’s getting from this other man or men. When your dad speaks up, she shouts him down and he’s lost so he backs down, she resents him working so many hours for her early retirement. But, she’s forgotten it was her pushing your dad down this road for their future.



> All I have as far as evidence is a gut feeling and my list of concerning behavior, but my intuition has been wrong before and my mom's behavior could be due to various things. So basically, nothing that I would be comfortable sharing with him at this point, other than my concerns about her behavior, which I already had a conversation with him about.


*Being encouraged to have cosmetic surgery by her friends for what reason?* 

If it’s for medical reason(s) and is discussed with your dad then there’s no issue here.
Your mother is 50 years old and is being reminded by toxic friend(s) that having cosmetic surgery somehow, returns her magically to her youthful days will make her happier, because of the attention she is getting. This is called an *EGO*! She needs to check out of the fantasy and check into the reality. 

*To confirm your SUSPICIONS, get a few VAR's and place them where your mother mostly spends her time on the phone and computer. HID THEM WELL! Confide in a close friend of your SUSPICIONS and get your friend to listen to the VAR's FIRST! NOT YOU! Your friend can confirm your SUSPICIONS or NOT! Now you listen to the VAR's with your friend. You'll need someone to hold onto if your SUSPICIONS are correct.* 

Why can’t people just grow old gracefully I’ll never understand!

FTP


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

From my perspective and only my perspective. In my mid thirties and forties, I dated/escorted quite a few of married woman. I'm saying this because many were introduced by a couple of divorced/single female co-workers. Some married girls oftentimes encouraged their married friends to have something on the side and a couple married girls set me up with their married friends when for what ever reason, they wanted to de-escalate their stepping out. 
My point is that this goes on big time and a married female (or male) has no business hanging out with these people who love to party. Those that do like that environment.
Alyssa, you dad needs to wake up and smell the coffee or someone like the scoundrel I used to be is going to move on her, if it hasn't already happened. But he won't wake up. My advice is to do your own clandestine investigation and keep your mouth shut until you can determine the extent of and gather supporting evidence of her possible extracurricular activities. That way you'll have something to hang your hat on. I don't think you're going to get a lot more mileage out of trying to get your old man involved. 
Bear in mind there is the possibility that your dad doesn't care or even approves of your moms activities. That also happens a lot.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Alyssa var Sony icdpx312. Accept no substitute for the Sony var.

I honestly hope I'm wrong.

But I think I'm correct.


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## Crest (Feb 5, 2013)

alyssa_s said:


> Yes it's possible that my mom could be acting this way for reasons other than cheating. It's just that I don't know what they are either than the fact that she's turning 50 and could be having a mid-life crisis. But either way, I think even if cheating is the cause of her behavioral changes it would be a consequence of the road she's heading down. My mom has told us she didn't have the best childhood and when she talks about some of the problems she had with her parents, particularly her mother, she still sounds upset and bitter. Once I thought that my mom may be bi-polar, but she was never diagnosed or if she was she never told anyone.
> 
> As for the bolder clothes thing, the first thing I noticed was that she was buying brighter colors, skinnier jeans, lower cut shirts, and she wanted these Lululemon yoga pants I had which are basically tights. Then I noticed her work attire changed - she used to only wear suits with moderately sized heels but the heels are getting higher, she's started wearing blouses with skirts also, and sometimes she doesn't even wear pantyhose when she wears a skirt.


Alyssa,

Have you tried talking to your mother about her feelings in a sympathetic way? If you asked whether she was putting up a "wall" because she thought you wouldn't understand her emotions right now, what do you think she'd say? Maybe her distant behavior is a way to shield you from pain that she assumes you're still too young to understand...

The bright colors and tall shoes are consistent with someone trying to convey vitality and strength (or compensate for not having those things). The yoga pants make sense if she does actually go to the gym a lot. Have you noticed any other clothing that is more blatantly inappropriate? Do her outfits manage to show off her chest a lot, or would that be part of the reason her friends recommended "cosmetic procedures"? Maybe this is less about boldness, and more about insecurity...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Alyssa's mother might have a brain tumor.

Also, it is clear that children have a right to have opinions about their parents' marriages. 

Alyssa is very intelligent. Hard to believe she is only 18 but girls sometimes are social geniuses the grade school age. However, you don't need to have more than common sense to know that a mother using four letter words to dish out emotional abuse is not right in the head.

Hi Alyssa, I am adding to my earlier post. If you mother always swore like sailor, then nothing much has changed. If that is part of the change that you have seen in her then it could be that she is suffering from a neurological disease (e.g., brain tumor) and the part of the brain that controls impulsive behavior is damaged. You should discuss this with your father as a health issue.

This could also explain her poor choice of clothing.

Sometimes when people have affairs it makes them happy. This does not seem to be the case with your mother. A person having an affair may try to appear normal. She isn't doing this either.

If you tell your father that your mother has undergone a character transformation, you need not use the word affair at all. Simply describe her behavior. If he is not concerned, then you have a new problem to deal with, i.e., dad checked out.

Don't panic. You are smart enough to figure out what you have the ability to change and give it your best shot. You need to be there for your sister of course.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Crest, you have a valid point if the part you quoted was all there was.

But, there is also the secretive behaviour with the phone, not only in the locking of it but also the using of it, defensive when surprised by someone entering the room while she is busy texting, there is the going out all the time, the friends attitudes towards other men and the mother being seemingly fully 'in' on these attitudes, the constant distracted behaviour (no doubt I have missed a few other thongs here).....all add up, with the new sexier clothing to something that seems a lot more than just a new interest in clothing and appearance. 

Though a new interest in appearance all on its own is worrying. There is generally something that sparks this. People like to look good for others, if this was just for her husband's benefit, all good! But it doesn't sound like it.


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## FlyingThePhoenix (Apr 11, 2013)

Remains said:


> Crest, you have a valid point if the part you quoted was all there was.
> 
> But, there is also the secretive behaviour with the phone, not only in the locking of it but also the using of it, defensive when surprised by someone entering the room while she is busy texting, there is the going out all the time, the friends attitudes towards other men and the mother being seemingly fully 'in' on these attitudes, the constant distracted behaviour (no doubt I have missed a few other thongs here).....all add up, with the new sexier clothing to something that seems a lot more than just a new interest in clothing and appearance.
> 
> Though a new interest in appearance all on its own is worrying. There is generally something that sparks this. People like to look good for others, if this was just for her husband's benefit, all good! But it doesn't sound like it.


*Remains:* Exactly! Oi, you took the words right out of my mouth! :smthumbup:

*Crest:* I agree on your points. But right now her mother is short-tempered towards anyone in the house and her dad somewhat lost or has chosen not to deal with it. This is *NOT *the time to talk to her parents, but the time for Alyssa to confirm her *suspicions *are correct. No matter what she finds on the VAR(s) the talking can come afterwards and your points and many others raised then. The fact she’s ONLY 18 bothers me as well, but she has a sharp mind and she knows how to use it. She *NEEDS *to do this as no one else will. 

Regards, FTP


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Alyssa's mother might have a brain tumor.
> 
> Also, it is clear that children have a right to have opinions about their parents' marriages.
> 
> ...


I think you've watched too much Law and Order.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Alyssa, I have been uncomfortable with you doing investigations on your mother. This is not your responsibility. What you find out will then weigh heavily on you, whatever it is. As one member pointed out, what if you find out Uncle Henry is a cross dresser, and your sister is adopted?

Anyhow, the point is that you are overstepping a boundary here imo.

What is very true though is that you should not be in the position of maintaining any kind of secrets for either parent. If things don't add up, you should reveal the data to the other parent.

Let me add in here that later in life I learned some secrets from my parents' pasts which explained some odd behaviors when I was a teen. I think had I pressed them on it at the time it would have been very damaging to the family and to them.

A better approach for you imo is to simply tell both of them that you will not keep any secrets or hide any information for either one. And then tell your father the facts you have.

The thing is, though, a lot of what you have is not factual but conjecture and imagination.

You are also within your rights to tell your father you dislike the way your mother treats him, and you are within rights to tell your father about the abusive things she says to you and your sisters.

I would disclose openly what you know and then bow out of this issue.


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## FlyingThePhoenix (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi Thor,



Thor said:


> Alyssa, I have been uncomfortable with you doing investigations on your mother. This is not your responsibility. What you find out will then weigh heavily on you, whatever it is. As one member pointed out, what if you find out Uncle Henry is a cross dresser, and your sister is adopted?
> 
> Anyhow, the point is that you are overstepping a boundary here imo.
> 
> ...


Alyssa’s, mother is changing before very her eyes into something she doesn't understand, one thing is for sure her mother is under the influence of her toxic friends and her father seems lost to his wife's changes.

She's 18, but her words are that of someone older, she's not wiser, that will come with age and experience. But right now, she’s alone and her mother's attitude in the family home continues to change. There’s always a slim chance she will discover something about another family member, I’ll grant you that, but I strongly doubt that, her mother is constantly on the computer/phone chatting to her secret friends and shutting her family out. 

Say she stopped investigating her mother’s strange behaviour today! Weeks or months later, her mother decides to leave the family home because she’s cheating, breaking the family apart. How do you think Alyssa will feel? She’ll feel sick that she had the opportunity to intervene and it was missed because she was advised to do so because it was none of her business. That she will remember for the rest of life!

No, I’m sorry, it is her business, in my eyes she’s an 18 year old adult and since her father is lost, she has to do the investigating for her dad. What she *MUST NOT DO *is present the evidence to her mother, but give it to her dad for him to take action.

Regards, FTP


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Even if it is not caused by infidelity the mother's behaviour is of concern.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Ask your dad (after you have sworn him to secrecy), 'if mum was cheating, would you want to know?'. And then you have the answer.

However, I also advise completely against this because if she is not cheating you may put a paranoia in your fathers head and create some major issues in your parents marriage. 

I agree somewhat with Thor. I also think I would need to know. And then once I found out, see if my father needed to know also. 

Oh Alyssa, what a minefield. I don't think there is any right way to pursue this. Choose the lesser of the 2 evils. And what you feel you should do. And what you feel to be right. And the path of the least backfiring on you that is possible. But also what you are happy with and feel morally happy with.

Oh gawd!


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

How is the family Alyssa?


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## Mtts (Apr 16, 2012)

EleGirl,

Seriously what is wrong with you?

I have to say, I find a lot of the user base here very helpful. In this case, I find your posts to be unnecessarily rude and spiteful. If you've got something going on that is causing that, deal with it without taking it out on this young woman trying to help her family. 

The responses from some of you here really make me feel ashamed and I want to apologize on behalf of everyone here that should be mature enough to offer sound advice without undue criticism.

Keep us updated OP and I hope this works out better than 99% of the stories here.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

alyssa_s said:


> Yes it's possible that my mom could be acting this way for reasons other than cheating. It's just that I don't know what they are either than the fact that she's turning 50 and could be having a mid-life crisis. But either way, I think even if cheating is the cause of her behavioral changes it would be a consequence of the road she's heading down. My mom has told us she didn't have the best childhood and when she talks about some of the problems she had with her parents, particularly her mother, she still sounds upset and bitter. Once I thought that my mom may be bi-polar, but she was never diagnosed or if she was she never told anyone.
> 
> As for the bolder clothes thing, the first thing I noticed was that she was buying brighter colors, skinnier jeans, lower cut shirts, and she wanted these Lululemon yoga pants I had which are basically tights. Then I noticed her work attire changed - she used to only wear suits with moderately sized heels but the heels are getting higher, she's started wearing blouses with skirts also, and sometimes she doesn't even wear pantyhose when she wears a skirt.


I can give you my opinion on dress. It has been a serious issue between my wife and I over the years. My wife for years said she dressed the way she did for me and my reply was I am not around most of the time you are dressed the way you are, when she is at work, out shopping, out with family, without me etc, and I told her over and over again that if you are dressing this way for me then why aren't I around? My wife finally admitted last year and again this year that she dresses the way she does to attrack other men. 

If you look at signs of cheating on various websites you will find that men and women change when they are involved in A's or getting ready to engage in one. Clothes, perfune, weight, working out, etc. 

Your mom going from suits to skirts without panty hose. For me it is a no brainer why your mom changed her dress and you are mature enough to figure it out. Certainly I may be out in left field but the more you write the more signs there are.

I would go with the VAR at the least. One was suggested by and earlier poster. 

Some here on TAM have difficulty with you (the daughter) investigating your mom. I don't. My youngest son and oldest son saw all the changes. Their mother taking a shower and doing her hair to go out shopping. She never did that. She would put on a ballcap and out she would go. They knew she was cheating before I did. My youngest son put a GPS on my wife's car (it is in my name as well). I was living in another city during the week at this time and would come home on weekends and was doing this until we could afford another house. My wife's A started way before I got the promotion and before we had any plans of moving. 

I am of the opinion that you should get undeniable proof first and foremost. I wuold also suggest you develop a plan on what you will do with that proof. To whom and how will you present it?

I would also like to say that if you do find out the worse that you are not to blame for any fall out. 

I am praying for you.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Mtts said:


> EleGirl,
> 
> Seriously what is wrong with you?
> 
> ...


Mtts, I am with you. I have had people disagree with me and some on my post have left because they did not like the way I did things or am doing things. But some of the posts here sound like they want to controll the OP. Do it my way or else. 

OP - typically you will get various opinion here, some will disagree and give you counter views. That is what I have found the most helpful. 

Hang in there.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

This is a third-party thread. Most threads have users trying to work through and around any biases the OP may have and may be intentionally or unintentionally blind towards. Disagreement is fine and trying to suss out these biases seems to be a natural part of the community. Let's do our best to keep it respectful.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

alyssa_s said:


> You are seriously trying to push me, aren't you? Yes, obviously my mother is entitled "to her own opinions and thoughts." Since you aren't aware of my family's dynamic let me tell you this - my mother is given the most slack out of everyone in the family by my father. But there's a certain point where he draws the line. I already mentioned the time where *my mom told my sister and me that she wanted to kill us*, but there's nothing wrong with that, right? After all my mom is entitled to her own thoughts and opinions and how dare my dad stick up for his kids. Or when she *calls my little sister a "f*cking retard"* because she wants to try to cook dinner but doesn't know how to use a Cuisinart. Or when *she calls me a "b*tch" and says "f*ck you"* to me when I asked her calmly and nicely not to verbally abuse my little sister. Or how about when my little sister cut herself while my mom was working and too busy to notice, so my sister yelled just to get her attention and she responds with "I don't care what's happening to you, *you don't f*cking talk to me like that,*" leaving her to deal with it herself. Yeah, she's entitled to those opinions and my dad deserves to be put in jail for telling her she's wrong.


Not normal. Could be neurological disease. Does your older sister remember her being like this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Not normal. Could be neurological disease. Does your older sister remember her being like this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or drugs? Yeah, because married women never do drugs, right?

What I am thinking is perhaps an addiction to prescription pain killers?

A dotor got me hooked on codeine and it was a hell of a job to get off it. Was I behaving oddly? At times, I think I probably was.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> This is a third-party thread. Most threads have users trying to work through and around any biases the OP may have and may be intentionally or unintentionally blind towards. Disagreement is fine and trying to suss out these biases seems to be a natural part of the community. Let's do our best to keep it respectful.


True!:

BTW, FrenchFry, your avatar is the most funky avatar I have *ever* seen!:smthumbup:


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

Okay, so I think there must be something going on between my parents that I don't realize because my dad's been really volatile these past few days, and he snapped at me today for something pretty innocuous (leaving my textbooks on the couch). Though they've been acting pretty much the same towards each other, my parents have always tried to avoid displaying hostility for one another in front of my siblings and I so I don't really know either way. The point is, I guess, that my dad's stressed out about something and since he's already snapped at my sister and me, my mom will probably feel the effects of that stress at some point. As I've said, she's really emotionally driven so I hope if that happens, whatever she's struggling with won't be pushed any further by it. 

I still was having a hard time deciding what to do, because sometimes my mom seems like she's gone back to 'normal,' and everyone in the family seems happy and I start to feel bad for doing this. But then she starts being secretive on the phone/computer and she has her outbursts that bring the terrible gut feeling back. Anyway, I wasn't able to pick up any voice recorders last weekend, but it seems like some users have suggested me specific models to use. Since this is what the majority of you have suggested to me, I'll stick with the plan of planting a few recorders to see if anything comes up. I'll buy some after school tomorrow. I'm sorry it seems like I'm flip flopping a lot.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

Remains said:


> Is there any way you can check her phone or phone bill first? Or other things?
> 
> I am just a little worried that the VAR's might be a bit overly upsetting. You cannot un-know information, and you cannot un-hear it either. However, they are one of the fastest and most condemning ways to get the info you are after.
> 
> goodnight.


I can't check my mom's phone bill because she's not on the same plan as the rest of my family any more, so I wouldn't really know what to do other than to buy a voice recorder. Someone mentioned keylogging the computer but I would be pretty uncomfortable with that so I guess I'll just have to use a recorder.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

FlyingThePhoenix said:


> Hi Alyssa,
> 
> 
> 
> *Being encouraged to have cosmetic surgery by her friends for what reason?*


It's not for medical reasons, in my opinion it's purely for vanity. I'm talking about things like eye bag removal, getting their noses fixed, botox injections, teeth whitening (one of my mom's friends even got veneers). A couple of her friends also got breast implants, and from what my mom's said to us it sounds like some of these women think they're auditioning for Real Housewives..


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Alyssa var Sony icdpx312. Accept no substitute for the Sony var.
> 
> I honestly hope I'm wrong.
> 
> But I think I'm correct.


Thank you, I'll try to find it tomorrow.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

Crest said:


> Alyssa,
> 
> Have you tried talking to your mother about her feelings in a sympathetic way? If you asked whether she was putting up a "wall" because she thought you wouldn't understand her emotions right now, what do you think she'd say? Maybe her distant behavior is a way to shield you from pain that she assumes you're still too young to understand...
> 
> The bright colors and tall shoes are consistent with someone trying to convey vitality and strength (or compensate for not having those things). The yoga pants make sense if she does actually go to the gym a lot. Have you noticed any other clothing that is more blatantly inappropriate? Do her outfits manage to show off her chest a lot, or would that be part of the reason her friends recommended "cosmetic procedures"? Maybe this is less about boldness, and more about insecurity...


If I asked my mom why she was putting up a wall I think she would say what she always does - that she feels attacked and that there's no point in discussing things if people aren't willing to empathize with her. It's frustrating because that statement is false and she doesn't really realize that communication goes both ways. 

For the clothes, the only thing blatantly inappropriate was a see through-y blouse that I saw in the laundry basket but I was too embarrassed to ask about it. Her outfits do manage to show off her chest more, they're definitely less modest than they have been in the past. But now that I think about it, it seems like she actually dresses down when we go out as a family. I agree that her wardrobe change could be about insecurity but that still leaves her vulnerable too I guess.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

MovingAhead said:


> How is the family Alyssa?


Thanks for asking, we're doing alright for now. My sister and I are emotionally tense with each other right now because she suspects my mom as well and thinks I'm not acting quick enough. My dad's been stressed out and my mom still has her moments, but overall we're okay considering.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Not normal. Could be neurological disease. Does your older sister remember her being like this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My older sister and my mom don't get along, but she was never cursed at or anything like that. The worst that had happened to her as far as I can remember is having a bunch of her stuff thrown out and being threatened with physical punishment (she was never hit though, just shoved).


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Or drugs? Yeah, because married women never do drugs, right?
> 
> What I am thinking is perhaps an addiction to prescription pain killers?
> 
> A dotor got me hooked on codeine and it was a hell of a job to get off it. Was I behaving oddly? At times, I think I probably was.


That could be a possibility because my mom had a root canal a while back. But then again, I've been prescribed some pain medication for some sports injuries which I never used, and the bottles are still full.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Key logger is better, because you get both sides of the convo, so you get the full context, full legibility, there is no doubt, no ambiguity. I used one from relytec. It comes free for a week. That alone was long enough to reveal the problem, I got a subscription to verify that I was being given the truth in the aftermath.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Ask your dad if he has noticed something wrong with your mother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FlyingThePhoenix (Apr 11, 2013)

alyssa_s said:


> Thanks for asking, we're doing alright for now. My sister and I are emotionally tense with each other right now because she suspects my mom as well and thinks I'm not acting quick enough. My dad's been stressed out and my mom still has her moments, but overall we're okay considering.


Do you have any close friend(s) to confide in?
If your sister suspects as you do, this is the younger sister right?

You need to have a long talk about what's going and join forces and but tell her nothing about the vars. Just tell her you are dealing with it and she must remain calm and for the time being stay out of it.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Alyssa NEVER EVER Reveal your electronic means! Once you know the who and when, you can often get non electronic evidence.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

It looking more and more like your father either knows about the affair, or is being seriously gas lighted by your mother.

You discovering it, if there is one, might be enough to wake her up and end it.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Shaggy is right. (a holy crap moment) Alyssa. Seriously. Work it fast!

Your father is going to blow it and your mom is going to go underground.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> It looking more and more like your father either knows about the affair, or is being seriously gas lighted by your mother.
> 
> You discovering it, if there is one, might be enough to wake her up and end it.


There may be another explanation to your father's mood. In 2011 my wife started an A around June. Then after our trip to Ft. Lauderdale in August and prior to our trip to Disney in September my wife took it physical. I had no clue. But there was lots of tension between my wife and I. As I look back on it my wife created it and the disharmony in the marriage was a result of things not being like they were before her A. 

If this is the case in your parents relationship you dad has no clue. His reaction could be (imo) a result of something he is not even aware and is reacting to changes in your mother towards him. Might be subtle things. And this is creating tension in him. I reacted the way I did without even knowing my wife was cheating on me. I was getting angry at her for ignoring me, or saying things to me that she never said before. 

So we pick up on things, react to things in our marriage and the light does not come on right away. When it does it makes sense. 

I reacted the same way in 2010. My wife had an EA with a guy and during that time (just over a month) we argued. We rarely ever argued and when we did it was always mild.


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

alyssa_s said:


> Thanks for asking, we're doing alright for now. My sister and I are emotionally tense with each other right now because she suspects my mom as well and thinks I'm not acting quick enough. My dad's been stressed out and my mom still has her moments, but overall we're okay considering.


Alyssa, I'm sorry that I didn't respond to your thread in full. I've suddenly stopped coming on TAM or only for a brief moment and then being exhausted. I think it's depression with my situation and the horrible reality of infidelity.

Now to you. I just want to say that I am sooo mad at your parents for putting you girls through this! Of course, there is more your parents know and perhaps I shouldn't judge. But man, you definitely are bearing a much larger burden than others your age and all of that because of the people who are supposed to be your guardians.

That's what hurts the most with infidelity. The very people who are supposed to make us feel safe willingly destroy our happiness. :-( 

Be strong for yourself first and foremost. You always have the choice to not take this upon yourself - just as you always have the right to investigate if you feel need be. You aren't responsible for this mess, though you can't run away from it either. I hope you can get past this limbo stage sooner rather than later and that the parents can take the responsibility for dealing with what is going on. So as to set you free... in whatever capacity that it is possible at this point. Ah man, I'm not much to offer words right now. But I'm thinking of you and sending you cyber hugs!!


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

Alyssa I just want you to know what a wonderful young woman you are. You are very strong and brave and my heart breaks for you and what you are going through. No young woman your age should have to deal with this kind of betrayal from your own mother. 

And yes, she is betraying you, and your sister and especially your father.


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

Alyssa, are you on TAM still? Any updates to share? How are YOU doing?


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

totallyunexpected said:


> Alyssa, I'm sorry that I didn't respond to your thread in full. I've suddenly stopped coming on TAM or only for a brief moment and then being exhausted. I think it's depression with my situation and the horrible reality of infidelity.
> 
> Now to you. I just want to say that I am sooo mad at your parents for putting you girls through this! Of course, there is more your parents know and perhaps I shouldn't judge. But man, you definitely are bearing a much larger burden than others your age and all of that because of the people who are supposed to be your guardians.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to hear about your depression and difficult situation, and I hope you're feeling better now. I'm the one who should be sending you cyber hugs lol 

And don't worry, there's no need to apologize to me! I appreciated what you had to say earlier in the thread and you guys seriously don't owe me anything, I'm the one who's indebted for all the great advice I've gotten. My parents are great, they're just having trouble right now and it's rubbing off on us but yeah, getting closer to a solution so hopefully this will turn out for the better.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

Hello!

I'm sorry I haven't been coming here much recently, my mom has been doing nice things for my dad lately and that's really made me feel bad about what I'm doing. Anyway, I bought the Sony recorder that weightlifter recommended (thanks weightlifter!) and it should arrive pretty soon. I didn't buy one at Best Buy because the Sony ones they had were pretty expensive so I wanted to look online before I paid for anything and I ended up finding one for $40. But when I got home from school on Tuesday, I heard my mom calling her work and saying that she would be working from home on Wednesday, so I went back out and bought a cheap voice recorder that looked like a flash drive. I hid it behind a photo on my parents' nightstand on Wednesday morning (now it sounds really dumb looking back, but my mom always makes calls either using the phone on the nightstand or she sits on the bed and uses her cell phone). When I retrieved it I was too scared of what might be on it (since it was near the bed) so I brought it to a good friend on Thursday and he was able to edit the file with his music program and he sent me all of the sound it picked up and I AM SO RELIEVED for now!!!! The only sounds the thing picked up was what I think was my mom sneezing once or twice, her calling her secretary very briefly to check up, and her talking to my grandma (they were arguing about something my aunt did). I know this doesn't definitively mean she's not cheating, but if there were a day to do it, Wednesday would have been the perfect day and she didn't! 

I know I shouldn't get too happy because the recorder I bought was cheap and could have missed stuff, the sound quality wasn't the best, she could have made calls in other rooms, etc., but the Sony one is on its way and I'm gonna buy velcro straps like you guys told me to and put it underneath the car seat. There's only two questions I have about this still. One is that she works in LA and we live in a suburb outside the city, and my mom takes the train to go to work so the only driving she does is from home to the station in the morning then from the station to home in the evening. So I guess I'm just wondering if she'd still be calling anyone or anything like that when she's in the car for such a short amount of time. Another thing is, I'm rarely in my mom's car so I'm not sure how I could get the voice recorder in there. I was thinking that I could go somewhere with her and "forget something" in her car and then place the recorder in there, but my mom's pretty snoopy and gets suspicious easily. Anyways, if you have any suggestions I'd be so grateful. 

Again, I'm sorry I haven't been updating - I know you guys are investing time into this also and I've been kind of lollygagging my way through this but I've created a plan of action for myself and I'll follow through and keep you guys updated. Thanks for the help so far!


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## FlyingThePhoenix (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi Alyssa,



alyssa_s said:


> Hello!
> 
> I'm sorry I haven't been coming here much recently, my mom has been doing nice things for my dad lately and that's really made me feel bad about what I'm doing. Anyway, I bought the Sony recorder that weightlifter recommended (thanks weightlifter!) and it should arrive pretty soon. I didn't buy one at Best Buy because the Sony ones they had were pretty expensive so I wanted to look online before I paid for anything and I ended up finding one for $40. But when I got home from school on Tuesday, I heard my mom calling her work and saying that she would be working from home on Wednesday, so I went back out and bought a cheap voice recorder that looked like a flash drive. I hid it behind a photo on my parents' nightstand on Wednesday morning (now it sounds really dumb looking back, but my mom always makes calls either using the phone on the nightstand or she sits on the bed and uses her cell phone). *When I retrieved it I was too scared of what might be on it (since it was near the bed) so I brought it to a good friend on Thursday and he was able to edit the file with his music program and he sent me all of the sound it picked up and I AM SO RELIEVED for now!!!!* The only sounds the thing picked up was what I think was my mom sneezing once or twice, her calling her secretary very briefly to check up, and her talking to my grandma (they were arguing about something my aunt did). I know this doesn't definitively mean she's not cheating, but if there were a day to do it, Wednesday would have been the perfect day and she didn't!
> 
> ...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Your mother might not be having an affair but she might be considering leaving your father. 

When people think of doing this they work on ways of justifying what they want to do by picking fights and blaming people for anything and everything. 

Clearly things can't continue as they are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Thanks for the kudos

BTW buy LITHIUM batteries. RDMU was getting 25 hour recordings without burning them out.

Hope this one turns out to be a false positive... Then again so many red flags. 

This is the ultimate place for Damn I hate being right so much.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

weightlifter said:


> Thanks for the kudos
> 
> BTW buy LITHIUM batteries. RDMU was getting 25 hour recordings without burning them out.
> 
> ...


You might find out what is really bugging your mother even if she isn't having an affair.

Oh! I wonder. Does she possibly think your father is stepping out on her?


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

Hi,

I have the Sony thing now, I was playing around with it earlier and now have it set to the "VOR" function. This weekend I'll buy something to fasten the recorder into place in my mom's car, probably velcro strips as someone mentioned. She's going to a night event next Friday so I'm gonna try to put the recorder in before then. Also, most of you have told me to put it under the car seat, so I will do that unless anyone else has different suggestions. Thanks for sticking around!


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

FlyingThePhoenix said:


> Hi Alyssa,


Hi,

My mom's not an expert in IT (like if her computer is having problems she wouldn't be able to fix it by herself) but she's pretty proficient and understands how to use her stuff. And her phone's a Samsung Galaxy, I think the S2.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> You might find out what is really bugging your mother even if she isn't having an affair.
> 
> Oh! I wonder. Does she possibly think your father is stepping out on her?


I never thought of that before, but she might think that because as I mentioned my dad works late and often, so I'm sure she's thought about it before. My dad's responsible for interviewing temps and interns and my mom always asks jokingly if there were any cute girls. Also if he mentions a female coworker my mom sometimes asks him questions sort of benignly, but they're the kinds of questions that I think she would get defensive about if he were the one asking her, so I don't know, that's a great point MattMatt.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

alyssa_s said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have the Sony thing now, I was playing around with it earlier and now have it set to the "VOR" function. This weekend I'll buy something to fasten the recorder into place in my mom's car, probably velcro strips as someone mentioned. She's going to a night event next Friday so I'm gonna try to put the recorder in before then. Also, most of you have told me to put it under the car seat, so I will do that unless anyone else has different suggestions. Thanks for sticking around!


What is "V O R" short for?

Make sure there are no audibles on for the VAR. Like it would beep when out of recording space, or battery life.

Attach the VAR to the Velcro, then attach the Velcro to the under side of the seat with another Velcro.

In other words, don't just loop Velcro around the VAR AND what you are attaching it to. After some bumps and a hard brake, or two, it could slide out.

Fixing the Velcro to the VAR, then attaching that Velcro to the seat with more Velcro is much a better connection.


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## FlyingThePhoenix (Apr 11, 2013)

alyssa_s said:


> I never thought of that before, but she might think that because as I mentioned my dad works late and often, so I'm sure she's thought about it before. My dad's responsible for interviewing temps and interns and my mom always asks jokingly if there were any cute girls. Also if he mentions a female coworker my mom sometimes asks him questions sort of benignly, but they're the kinds of questions that I think she would get defensive about if he were the one asking her, so I don't know, that's a great point MattMatt.


Excellent point MattMatt and Alyssa!:smthumbup:

We have learnt a great deal about your mother and her behaviour, but virtually nothing about your father. Consider this, your mother's sudden change in clothes etc. is actually for your father's attention, as he is working so late. A possibility you cannot ignore!



GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> What is "V O R" short for?
> 
> Make sure there are no audibles on for the VAR. Like it would beep when out of recording space, or battery life.
> 
> ...


Hi,

Depending on where you live, VAR's can also be called.

VAR = Voice Activated Recorder
VOR = Voice Operated Recorder
DVR = Digital Voice Recorder

Same thing really.

Alyssa, thanks for the phone/computer information, right now just stick with the VAR(s). 

Have nice weekend.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Hi Alyssa

Just to respond to your earlier question, if your mum only uses the car to go to and from the station, I would doubt she would make her calls in the car (if indeed she is making any). If it was me, I would make them on the train. I am assuming there is no-one she knows on there or travels with. 

Does she use the car for a girls night out? If there was a call to make, she is likely to make a call while driving for one of those in my opinion.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

If the car is only used for work journeys, I would imagine the house may be more productive. Though you never know who's secrets you might find in the house. Beware.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

How is it going, Alyssa?


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## maree (Jun 13, 2011)

I think it is highly likely that your father knows about whatever is going on, but has chosen not to inform the children, for good reason. I am not saying you have no reason or business to investigate, but your father may not have waved off your concern because he's forgiving... He may have other reasons. As a parent myself if my daughter approached me about a potential A I would be appalled that she has caught signs, and would be dismissive as no one wants to burden their children with these things. Especially since it sounds like your parents usually keep their issues to themselves (as expressed in other posts). 

Again, I'm not saying you have no cause for investigation, but I'm sure your father has probably sensed something going on, and he probably knows more than you think. It's understandable that he would purposely hide this from you. He is your father, he loves you, and doesn't want to burden you. In my opinion I would be questioning my father, asking if he's noted the same as you. Bring up the red flags to him. He may still be dismissive and make light of it in front of you, but it will also make him think harder about his wife's behavior. He may realize her behavior is affecting the children... If your father is really so apathetic about his marriage that he writes off obvious red flags and concerns his children have regarding their mother possibly having an A, then I feel the marriage has other equally detrimental issues that only your parents can address.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

Remains said:


> Hi Alyssa
> 
> Just to respond to your earlier question, if your mum only uses the car to go to and from the station, I would doubt she would make her calls in the car (if indeed she is making any). If it was me, I would make them on the train. I am assuming there is no-one she knows on there or travels with.
> 
> Does she use the car for a girls night out? If there was a call to make, she is likely to make a call while driving for one of those in my opinion.


Hmm, I can't remember her using the car like that. When she goes out at night she usually carpools with her friends. For the train, I know that sometimes she runs into one of our neighbors but I'm pretty sure that usually there's no one that she knows.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

maree said:


> I think it is highly likely that your father knows about whatever is going on, but has chosen not to inform the children, for good reason. I am not saying you have no reason or business to investigate, but your father may not have waved off your concern because he's forgiving... He may have other reasons. As a parent myself if my daughter approached me about a potential A I would be appalled that she has caught signs, and would be dismissive as no one wants to burden their children with these things. Especially since it sounds like your parents usually keep their issues to themselves (as expressed in other posts).
> 
> Again, I'm not saying you have no cause for investigation, but I'm sure your father has probably sensed something going on, and he probably knows more than you think. It's understandable that he would purposely hide this from you. He is your father, he loves you, and doesn't want to burden you. In my opinion I would be questioning my father, asking if he's noted the same as you. Bring up the red flags to him. He may still be dismissive and make light of it in front of you, but it will also make him think harder about his wife's behavior. He may realize her behavior is affecting the children... If your father is really so apathetic about his marriage that he writes off obvious red flags and concerns his children have regarding their mother possibly having an A, then I feel the marriage has other equally detrimental issues that only your parents can address.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you're right, I haven't really talked to my dad about it enough. But judging by the way he reacted when she told him she needed to fly out of town at the end of the month (his mood changed from playful to serious, and he asked her a few questions non-interrogatively) I think he might already be at the "thinking harder" phase. Anyways, thanks, I think I should have another talk with dad.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> How is it going, Alyssa?


Hi,

I haven't been able to put the recorder in her car yet, and I'm still trying to figure how to disable the audible thingies but I have a plan to get it in the car tomorrow. 

As for my mom, there's only been a couple of incidences that could be considered "red flags."

First, my sister and I were asking her what we should to for my dad for father's day, which my mom responded to by asking what we did for her. If you recall the post I made, my younger sister was particularly hurt by my mom's episode and so she said to her, "You wouldn't let us do anything for you, remember?" Then my mom went on a rant about how we "worship" our dad, and she said she didn't know why we favored him so heavily. I told her that we don't favor him, that it's her who's been treating us different lately, to which she responded "Oh yeah, blame everything on me again." She also insinuated that my dad would choose her over us because "she'll always have that _one_ thing" that we don't, which isn't a hard message to decipher. Some of the posters earlier on said it seemed like my mom was losing respect for my dad; I think that in addition to being inappropriate and just plain disgusting, what she said was blatant disrespect towards my dad.

The second incident revolves around a night event that my mom's going to later this week. It's an annual event, and the corporation my mom works for has sponsored it for a while now, so her office is always invited. When my mom told my dad she was going to this event, he asked her what time it started and said that maybe he could get off work early and go with her. She told him it would be too much trouble, and when he said it wouldn't be, she reminded him that he would have to come home early, shower, and change, and said that she didn't want him to rush around. I hope she was just being considerate, but I can't really believe that when she's always complaining to us that he's never around.

Seeing that my mom never misses an out-of-town meeting or a work sponsored event now, it seems to me like if she is cheating it's probably someone from work. My mom convincing my dad not to go with her makes me feel stronger about this. Aside from ruining the possibility of them getting together that night, who would want to spend four hours in the presence of their spouse and their affair partner at the same time?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Yeah, it sounds like a work romance, and the business trip likely has the OM going on it too.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

If you bought a Sony RCDPX312 The disable the beep thingy is on one of the menus. Not sure which. RDMU was the pioneer on this model and this info is from him. He has gotten epic long recordings using the lithium batteries.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You should strongly encourage your father to go to the event, if nothing else than to block her,


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Your mums behaviour is sounding more and more suspicious. I agree with Shaggy....but if your dad doesn't insist on going, doesn't see an issue or wants to avoid the issue and creating a scene.....tricky. Could you go with her? 

For fathers day, buy him 'No More Mr Nice Guy'.


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## FlyingThePhoenix (Apr 11, 2013)

alyssa_s said:


> Hi,
> Seeing that my mom never misses an out-of-town meeting or a work sponsored event now, it seems to me like if she is cheating it's probably someone from work. *My mom convincing my dad not to go with her makes me feel stronger about this. *Aside from ruining the possibility of them getting together that night, who would want to spend four hours in the presence of their spouse and their affair partner at the same time?


That's what I call a major *RED FLAG!* An office affair is one of the best places to hide an affair in plain sight. But other people working there will notice small changes. So you and your sister may not be the only ones who have noticed this change in her or a work colleague she is hanging around with a little too much.

As everyone has stated, insist your father goes to the event, her reaction will be: 

*1:* Her anger will increase to the point of verbal abuse and she’ll try to the very last minute to convince your father not to go with her. 

Or 

*2:* She'll change her views pretty quickly and be happy he is coming along.

I'm going for *1!* Too many things you've said point in this direction, but if I'm wrong and I hope I am, _I'll eat these words with great pleasure._

Why don’t you and your sister give him a nudge, in the right direction…


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## Aerith (May 17, 2013)

While I cannot exclude a possible affair completely, it looks like your mother is struggling from hormonal loss... All her irritations, mood swings, outbursts etc. are symptoms actually...


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Put a bug in your dad's ear to show up on his own, low profile, after the event gets under way, and watch.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Is there any way you can get someone to go to that event who your mother does not know? I also like the idea of your dad showing up unexpected and your mom's reaction will certainly reveal quite a bit.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

This is starting to sound more like an affair or the fact that she is tired of being a wife and mother and wants to be young, free and single, again. 

Is she hanging out with a younger crowd at work these days?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

You are a child. You had suspicions and you let your father know. Your involvement at that point should have ended. This is your parent's marriage, not yours. Frankly how they decide to handle a possible affair is none of your business. While you are affected by your parent's marital status it is NOT your marriage. You have crossed so many lines, so many boundaries, and it's horrendous that your father is allowing you to wade knee deep in his marital problems with your mother.


There is something very sick about the adults on this site who are encouraging you, a child, to spy on your mother and become a little affair sniffing Nancy Drew. It is neither appropriate nor right for you to be taking up this position. Currently you seem surrounded by some rather dysfunctional adults and that pattern is being emulated on this board. Some of the posters here are so embittered about their own destructive history with infidelity that they are ignoring that you are a CHILD and encouraging you to act in ways that are reprehensible. There are people here who are not looking out for YOUR best interest but are instead vigilantes focusing on outing every affair possible, regardless of the cost, even if it means egging on a child to do so.

You need to butt out of your parent's marriage and you need to move on with your teenage life. You need to stop. You can not see it now but this kind of behavior is likely to have detrimental effects on your relationship with your mother AND father for many years to come, regardless of what happens to their marriage.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

jaquen said:


> You are a child. You had suspicions and you let your father know. Your involvement at that point should have ended. This is your parent's marriage, not yours. Frankly how they decide to handle a possible affair is none of your business. While you are affected by your parent's marital status it is NOT your marriage. You have crossed so many lines, so many boundaries, and it's horrendous that your father is allowing you to wade knee deep in his marital problems with your mother.
> 
> 
> There is something very sick about the adults on this site who are encouraging you, a child, to spy on your mother and become a little affair sniffing Nancy Drew. It is neither appropriate nor right for you to be taking up this position. Currently you seem surrounded by some rather dysfunctional adults and that pattern is being emulated on this board. Some of the posters here are so embittered about their own destructive history with infidelity that they are ignoring that you are a CHILD and encouraging you to act in ways that are reprehensible. There are people here who are not looking out for YOUR best interest but are instead vigilantes focusing on outing every affair possible, regardless of the cost, even if it means egging on a child to do so.
> ...


Qft


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

jaquen said:


> You are a child. You had suspicions and you let your father know. Your involvement at that point should have ended. This is your parent's marriage, not yours. Frankly how they decide to handle a possible affair is none of your business. While you are affected by your parent's marital status it is NOT your marriage. You have crossed so many lines, so many boundaries, and it's horrendous that your father is allowing you to wade knee deep in his marital problems with your mother.
> .
> .
> .
> You need to butt out of your parent's marriage and you need to move on with your teenage life. You need to stop. You can not see it now but this kind of behavior is likely to have detrimental effects on your relationship with your mother AND father for many years to come, regardless of what happens to their marriage.


:iagree: and I could not have said it better.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

And get IC for herself.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Alyssa's mother has been emotionally abusive of her sister and her. She has a right to care and do something about it.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Her parents' marriage is not her marriage. I understand she has worries and concerns. The right thing to do is bring them to her dad's attention, talk to her mom and then let them sort it out.

This type of involvement is unhealthy.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I don't care if she's 86, this is not her issue to fix.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

I am not saying it is healthy or unhealthy just that is isn't our place to point fingers and say shoo. We don't even really know if this is an 18 year old girl. You don't know if it am a guy wearing a bunny suit. All i know is she is looking for advice on a course of action. Not grown people pointing finger and saying no no no... It isn't going to work.
I understand that in an Ideal world she wouldn't have to be involved. It isn't going to change the fact that she is still going to look into this. and If she asks for help I will give it to her. If she washes her hands of it. Fine to. If she just wants to talk to us about it fine as well. But the worst thing any one of us can do is to point our fingers and say you need to go act like a child.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

We have a young lady who is old enough to join the military and get her arse killed for her country who has come on TAM and asked for help. I will support her and hope for the best.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

anyway this has turned into thread jacking and so if you don't want to help her get out of the thread. Those that do please stay and offer whatever assistance you feel comfortably giving this woman.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

No. I just don't think a group of adults should be cheering an 18 year old into doing something illegal and immoral just to satisfy their own desire to see a shítshow, get some satisfaction because they were cheated on and kill a few minutes with some cheap entertainment.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

It is absolutely not a thread jack to offer a different brand of advice to an OP that diverges from the usual TAM groupthink. 

This IS our helping out in the best way we know how. A dozen pages of adults trying to teach a teenager how to become a PI sniffing out who may be sexually pleasing her mother, and you think a couple pages of warnings and opposing advice is a thread jack?

No. I really hope more posters come into this thread and offer advice that counters the BAD advice this teenager has been getting.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

What it boils down to is, if you/I/we were in her shoes, would we persue the truth about what is going on with her Mother.

Some of us would, some of us wouldn't and that's fine.

She's come her for help and suggestions about what to do. If she decides to go covert to get some answers and you are not comfortable with it - I say you should voice your concerns, then move on.

Yes, I would be concerned with the possible damage caused by her Mother finding out that she spied on her. But that's up to the OP.

I also would be concerened what was being done to my and behind my Father's back.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Haven't looked at this thread till now, but I gotta say that this girl should not be snooping on her mom. Since it looks like she's presented what she has to her dad, that's where her involvement stops. I can't believe anyone actually thinks it's up to this GIRL to expose what her mother is up to, regardless of what her father thinks!

As for whether the dad may know and just be pretending it isn't happening, we see that here on TAM frequently. How many BS's have we raked over the coals for allowing their WS to eat cake after cake?? but that is his business. Not the girls.

My kids were that age when my husband was cheating, and I can't even imagine the damage it would have caused in relationships within our family if they'd gotten advice to snoop on him behind my back.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Incidentally - I would say a large majority of teenage daughters would describe their relationship with their mother as abusive as they slam doors and say I hate you, you ruined my life! 

Let's take a deep breath folks and calm down.


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## A++ (May 21, 2012)

Alyssa,
I wish I had a daughter like you.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

This thread has gone seriously off the track. I have deleted over 30 posts. Any further posts that quote a poster other than the OP or does not directly address the OP will result in a ban. Thanks.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> This is starting to sound more like an affair or the fact that she is tired of being a wife and mother and wants to be young, free and single, again.
> 
> Is she hanging out with a younger crowd at work these days?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hm, I'm not really sure. She did mention one of a her younger work friends was getting married, but overall I think she mostly hangs out with people her age.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

jaquen said:


> You are a child. You had suspicions and you let your father know. Your involvement at that point should have ended. This is your parent's marriage, not yours. Frankly how they decide to handle a possible affair is none of your business. While you are affected by your parent's marital status it is NOT your marriage. You have crossed so many lines, so many boundaries, and it's horrendous that your father is allowing you to wade knee deep in his marital problems with your mother.
> 
> 
> There is something very sick about the adults on this site who are encouraging you, a child, to spy on your mother and become a little affair sniffing Nancy Drew. It is neither appropriate nor right for you to be taking up this position. Currently you seem surrounded by some rather dysfunctional adults and that pattern is being emulated on this board. Some of the posters here are so embittered about their own destructive history with infidelity that they are ignoring that you are a CHILD and encouraging you to act in ways that are reprehensible. There are people here who are not looking out for YOUR best interest but are instead vigilantes focusing on outing every affair possible, regardless of the cost, even if it means egging on a child to do so.
> ...


Thanks for the advice. You don't have kids, do you? The only reason I ask is that you only seem to be able to think like a husband. When a couple decides to have children, I think it's pertinent to put the family first. By that I don't mean that marriage should be put on the back burner and kids should be given free reign to do whatever they want so long as they stay happy - what I mean is that the family is a whole, it's one, and so in saying that I don't think you can conceptualize it in a way that makes its components black and white. You have got to be joking if you believe that kids don't have any business in what their parents do. Marriage is a sub-category to family life, and though infidelity certainly effects marriage, it also effects the family as a whole, and in that sense I don't get how it's not the whole family's business. There's detrimental behavior being exhibited here by the people who are supposed to be 'in control' of the family, that's obvious. Frankly, the idea that children shouldn't be involved in a marital riff when it directly effects them is an archaic and ageist thought. The problem that's occurring now is so evident that even a 13-year old girl (my sister) is picking up on things, so no, I have no right to try to root out a problem just because I'm a "child" and should expect that my parents will handle things in the best way, as they've CERTAINLY been doing so far (sarcasm). I'm not my parents' nosy neighbor, I'm their daughter, and what they're doing is getting to me and their youngest, and if they can't find a way to handle sh*t, then I will. The fact that you've judged my parents as "dysfunctional adults" says a lot about that.

About me being a "child," I don't know what context you're using to label me as such, but to be frank, it's annoying. Physically, as an 18-year old, I don't know anyone who would categorize me as a "child." Emotionally, I don't think you know me well enough to judge me in such a fashion either. I'm 18, and I'll be going to college next fall, living away from my parents; my teenage years are over. I'm not trying to be older than I am, nor am I trying to take on responsibilities undue to me. But at the same time, I know that I'm NOT going to sit around and acting hapless, sucking my thumb while strangers call me a child. No, whatever is going on with my mom is screwing with *our* family, and no matter how dismissive you want to be of a "child," it *is* my right to be able to protect that.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

TCSRedhead said:


> Her parents' marriage is not her marriage. I understand she has worries and concerns. The right thing to do is bring them to her dad's attention, talk to her mom and then let them sort it out.
> 
> This type of involvement is unhealthy.


The way my parents are acting is unhealthy too.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

jaquen said:


> It is absolutely not a thread jack to offer a different brand of advice to an OP that diverges from the usual TAM groupthink.
> 
> This IS our helping out in the best way we know how. A dozen pages of adults trying to teach a teenager how to become a PI sniffing out who may be sexually pleasing her mother, and you think a couple pages of warnings and opposing advice is a thread jack?
> 
> No. I really hope more posters come into this thread and offer advice that counters the BAD advice this teenager has been getting.


It's not a thread jack to show a difference of opinion. The thread jack occurs when people come here and make speculations and off-topic remarks while operating off of personal biases. True, a lot of people have been cheated on here, but there's probably a fair number of cheaters as well. One side is telling me to find out as much as possible, the other side is telling me to "butt out," but the biases exist on both sides.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

diwali123 said:


> No. I just don't think a group of adults should be cheering an 18 year old into doing something illegal and immoral just to satisfy their own desire to see a shítshow, get some satisfaction because they were cheated on and kill a few minutes with some cheap entertainment.


It's not really fair to judge peoples' intentions by using extremely painful bits of their past, is it? From the start, you've seemed distrusting of men. Your insistence on me getting counseling leads me to believe you feel a connect to counseling/psychology. All of this says that you've been hurt badly by men in the past. I could insinuate that you don't want me uncovering my mother's affair because you believe that she's an emotionally abused wife liberating herself from her oppressive husband. The latter part of the previous sentence isn't true, and I would imagine the first isn't, either. Seriously everyone, let's not kick dirt in each others' eyes anymore, okay? Everyone's been through sh*t but that doesn't give us the right to assume things about people.

And to you diwali, I apologize if you really have met some bad men. You seem like a strong person now, and I'm sorry for the bad start we got off to.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks. Thats very kind and wise of you. 
I don't know what is going on with your parents. That's the whole point. You live with them and you can't figure it out. 
I think you are in a really difficult part of your life anyway and your parents aren't there for you. 
You are making a lot of assumptions about counseling that aren't true. It's to help you, not for someone to tell you what to do. 

There are a lot of abusive people and a lot of cheaters of both sexes. I'm not taking either of your parents' side. All I can do is take your side and that to me means coming from a place of someone who was in a very messed up family and wanted to fix it all. 
I would be willing to bet divorce has been discussed by them. Moms don't start talking about their kids taking sides unless divorce is in the air.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Alyssa's mother has been emotionally abusive of her sister and her. She has a right to care and do something about it.


I am in principal agreement with Jaquen here But this is also a valid point


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

If her mom is cheating or something else really bad is happening, Alyssa spying on her parents is only going to make it worse. 
Alyssa your mom sounds really depressed. There's no excuse for how she's acting. I would never take my pain out on my daughter. 
Sometimes the best thing you can do is work on you. Your family is like a machine with moving parts. It's a system and everyone affects each other. 
If you and your sister are being abused the best thing you can do is work on you and learn about things like sick family systems. 
You might learn about setting boundaries with your mom too.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

alyssa_s said:


> Thanks for the advice. You don't have kids, do you? The only reason I ask is that you only seem to be able to think like a husband. When a couple decides to have children, I think it's pertinent to put the family first. By that I don't mean that marriage should be put on the back burner and kids should be given free reign to do whatever they want so long as they stay happy - what I mean is that the family is a whole, it's one, and so in saying that I don't think you can conceptualize it in a way that makes its components black and white. You have got to be joking if you believe that kids don't have any business in what their parents do. Marriage is a sub-category to family life, and though infidelity certainly effects marriage, it also effects the family as a whole, and in that sense I don't get how it's not the whole family's business.


I don't have to "conceptualize" anything here. I was dealing with the aftermath of infidelity in my parents' marriage before you were a twinkling in your parents' eyes. Trust me when I say that I do not need you to educate me on the devastating effects marital infidelity can have on children. That's my life story.

I will reiterate that what you're doing is wrong and can have detrimental effects on your relationship with your mother, and even father, in ways you can not imagine. In ways that very few people on this thread will admit, if they're even aware. You can damage, in a very real, and potentially permanent way your relationship with a parent. The potential for bitterness, resentment, and deep anger is here for all parties.

You are affected by your parent's marriage, but it's fidelity isn't your responsibility. Neither one of your parents made marital vows to you. There marriage existed before you. You came from them, not the other way around. The infidelity will affect you but it is out of your hands. You can not make your father deal with your mother's potential affair. You can not make your mother stop. There is a history between this man and woman that you know nothing about. You can not save your parent's marriage. You can not protect your parent's marriage. These are fantasies that children of parents with troubled marriages spin in order to give themselves a stronger sense of control. But unfortunately there is nothing you can do beyond what you've already done. Except possibly make things far worse and in the process learn far, far more about your mother and father than you can imagine. 

You are 18 years old. Like all 18 year olds you believe you are a full grown adult. Fine. Then I'd recommend you put your efforts into establishing that adult life and moving forward. Because adult children do not spend their days and nights trying to save their parents marriages. They realize that while they will always have a stake in mom and dad's relationship they can't control, protect, or save their marriage. THAT is how an adult responds to this kind of situation. Children carry the fantasy that they can make the difference. If you are an adult, as you so adamantly claim, then I'd recommend handling this situation like one. Try and move forward with YOUR life, your relationships, your future. 

I've said all I can. I truly hope all works out for your parents, their marriage, your sister, and you. This is a tough road.


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## FlyingThePhoenix (Apr 11, 2013)

Hi Alyssa,



*1)* If the evidence you find on the VAR’S confirms your suspicions you must *NOT* confront your mother!

*2)* You must tell your younger sister to stay out of this and you must never tell her what you have found ever! 

*3)* You must present this evidence to your father, and make sure he understands why you have taken this extreme action for you and your family. Tell him that his youngest daughter also has the same suspicions as you and was demanding you take action, but you instructed her to stay out of it.

*4)* Once your father has this information, it’s his decision on what action needs to be taken next. *You have done your job.* *If your father chooses not to act, then STAY OUT OF IT! It’s his marriage*, it’s up to him to save it or not. You must respect whatever decision he makes. Your parents will still be your parents even if their marriage ends. Remember this!

*5)* You have every right to fight for your family! While others will allow there family’s to DIE without a fight, you can at least know in your heart and your younger sister heart, you did everything you could to save your parents and family. *What’s the worst thing they can do to you, BUT LOVE YOU FOR DARING TO FIGHT FOR THEM!!!!!!*


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Alyssa I would like to ask you something. Let's say you were having a really hard time with something that you just didn't want your parents to know about it. Maybe because they wouldn't understand or they would judge you or because simply it was none of their business. 
Would you be ok with them setting up recorders and spying on you? 
This isn't a rhetorical question.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Hmmm.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Children carry the fantasy that they can make the difference.


Honestly that's all you needed to say to reinforce my belief in myself. 

Also, I don't know where you got the notion that this whole situation is about me being in control, or that it's about my "adamant claims" to be a full-grown adult. It's about being responsible to my family, I don't know why you aren't able to understand that. Maybe your parents' infidelity made you feel helpless, maybe you felt like you couldn't make a difference, but there's no reason for you to project your 18-year old self onto me. Even without knowing you, I guarantee that we're not the same, that's just how people work. Similarly, the idea of what it means to be an adult *is* a concept, and a subjective one. In my opinion, adults don't run away, that's what children do.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

Hi Alyssa,



*1)* If the evidence you find on the VAR’S confirms your suspicions you must *NOT* confront your mother!

*2)* You must tell your younger sister to stay out of this and you must never tell her what you have found ever! 

*3)* You must present this evidence to your father, and make sure he understands why you have taken this extreme action for you and your family. Tell him that his youngest daughter also has the same suspicions as you and was demanding you take action, but you instructed her to stay out of it.

*4)* Once your father has this information, it’s his decision on what action needs to be taken next. *You have done your job.* *If your father chooses not to act, then STAY OUT OF IT! It’s his marriage*, it’s up to him to save it or not. You must respect whatever decision he makes. Your parents will still be your parents even if their marriage ends. Remember this!

*5)* You have every right to fight for your family! While others will allow there family’s to DIE without a fight, you can at least know in your heart and your younger sister heart, you did everything you could to save your parents and family. *What’s the worst thing they can do to you, BUT LOVE YOU FOR DARING TO FIGHT FOR THEM!!!!!!*[/QUOTE]

Lol, no I didn't see any of it but I guess it was pretty childish if the moderator had to delete 30 posts...

Anyway, I found out that California is a "two-party" state and recording my mom is actually illegal. Even though people have questioned whether or not a mother would prosecute her own child, I think in my case it's a possibility so I'll think carefully/tread lightly about that. Thanks for #5, it means a lot


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## FlyingThePhoenix (Apr 11, 2013)

alyssa_s said:


> Lol, no I didn't see any of it but I guess it was pretty childish if the moderator had to delete 30 posts...
> 
> Anyway, I found out that California is a "two-party" state and recording my mom is actually illegal. Even though people have questioned whether or not a mother would prosecute her own child, I think in my case it's a possibility so I'll think carefully/tread lightly about that. *(FTP: Okay! tread carefully then...)* Thanks for #5, it means a lot


Thank you! I enjoyed writing #5, because it's TRUE! . 

Alyssa can you answers these question's please.

*Q.* After everything that's happened so far, do you still want to continue to find out what's going on with your mother?

*Q.* Has your father made any attempt to talk to your mother? 

*Q.* How's your younger sister doing?

*Q.* Didn't you mention you had another sister? correct me?

*Q.* It's the summer holidays soon is your family planning a trip together? You see where I'm going with this right....


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

diwali123 said:


> Alyssa I would like to ask you something. Let's say you were having a really hard time with something that you just didn't want your parents to know about it. Maybe because they wouldn't understand or they would judge you or because simply it was none of their business.
> Would you be ok with them setting up recorders and spying on you?
> This isn't a rhetorical question.


The obvious answer, and the one you're trying to get out of me, is no, I wouldn't be okay with it. But I have a hard time thinking of a situation in which whatever I'm having trouble with effects my parents in the way that a cheating parent effects their children. Even if parents don't record and spy on their kids, they certainly take other actions, be it up front or behind backs, in doing what they think is right. However, that's not to say I think recording and spying on loved ones is a right, I was always uncomfortable with doing it. I was unsure what else I could do and had hit several breaking points. Now, knowing my mom's tendencies and knowing that my state is a two-party law, I'm re-thinking the use of the recorders.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

A++ said:


> Alyssa,
> I wish I had a daughter like you.


Awe lol


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

FlyingThePhoenix said:


> Thank you! I enjoyed writing #5, because it's TRUE! .
> 
> Alyssa can you answers these question's please.
> 
> ...


Q. I think regardless of whether or not I find out anything, in the back of my mind I'll always be wondering. But with that being said, the main thing is fixing the family's problems, the problem is, they mostly stem from my mom.

Q. I don't know if he's talked to her or not, he wouldn't have a discussion like that in front of me or my sister anyway. My guess would be no, as I'm sure if he did my mom would have gone into a major mood.

Q. My younger sister's doing okay, but she and my mom still fight often. The problem is that she's going into a stage of not caring anymore. Before, she'd be so upset when my mom would act out, but now she just accepts it like she's used to it; sometimes she'll even make jokes about my mom behind her back. She's starting to detach herself now which is really bad IMO, but she's also started lashing out at me, which makes her really hard to deal with and I don't even want to deal with her sometimes.

Q. Yep, I have an older sister

Q. My dad has been planning a summer vacation since this past Christmas but my mom was opposed to the idea. So if we do go anywhere, my mom probably won't be going with us.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

So if you didn't see, I found out that my state has a "two-party" law, meaning it's illegal to record private conversations unless the recorder has consent from both parties involved. Right now I'm re-thinking the use of the recorder, but I've taken you guys' advice and suggested that my dad "surprise" my mom by coming home early and going to the event with her. My dad told me I had to watch my sister if he went with my mom, so I'll be home to see her reaction.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

alyssa_a,

If you get tired of dealing with certain posters, you can set their user name(s) to "hide" in your usercp settings.

They'll still be able to post in this thread, but their posts won't be listed for you to see them anymore. Just a thought.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

alyssa_s said:


> I don't know why you aren't able to understand that.


Your POV isn't complex. Simply because I disagree with it doesn't mean I'm unable to understand it. 



alyssa_s said:


> Maybe your parents' infidelity made you feel helpless, maybe you felt like you couldn't make a difference, but there's no reason for you to project your 18-year old self onto me.


I'm afraid you're mistaken, yet again. There is nothing to project onto you. My 18 year old self didn't need to lift a finger to try and save my parents' marriage. It wasn't my place first off and there is no way in the universe my parents would have ever allowed their child to butt into their marriage. The made the difference in their own marriage because, get this, it was their marriage to make a difference in. Not mine. They eventually reunited all by themselves when I was in college and had the happiest period in their 30 year marriage before my father died three years later.

There is nothing I could do to save their marriage. I had to learn that lesson first hand and you will too. It's noble that you want to fight for your family but it's not like this. Planting VARS on your mother and taking the burden of your parent's fidelity onto your own shoulders will never work.

But you won't listen to me, or anyone with a dissenting view. You have it all figured out. Good luck to you.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

alyssa_s said:


> The way my parents are acting is unhealthy too.


Yes, you're correct. That is not your problem to fix. 

While you are technically a legal adult, you ARE still a child you do still have some maturing left to go through. Part of being an adult is realizing what problems are yours and what problems are out of your control. 

I admire that you want to help but I can assure you this path will do more damage than good. 

And yes, I have children (22 yo, 20 yo daughters and a young son). 

You've not found any evidence with the VARs or spying. Talk this all out in detail with your dad and lay this at his feet to handle.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Your POV isn't complex. Simply because I disagree with it doesn't mean I'm unable to understand it.
> 
> But you won't listen to me, or anyone with a dissenting view. You have it all figured out. Good luck to you.


I know my point of view isn't complex...that's why it's hard for me to actually believe the people that say it'll be better to sit back and watch. Btw, do you only read the posts in which I'm replying to you? I said I was re-thinking this situation. 

The problem I've been having since this thread started was that those with "dissenting views" couldn't seem to express themselves without being biased, assumptive, sarcastic, dismissive, or just plain rude. An example of a poster with a "dissenting view" who doesn't feel the need to reply in such a manner is Thor. You, on the other hand, appear to have all of the above going for you. You also seem to have a problem with me reacting negatively to you, otherwise the first set of well wishes would have been the last. If you don't like negative reactions from me, maybe you should think about what other reactions there could have possibly been to calling me an "affair sniffing Nancy Drew," referring to this situation as me trying to find out "who may be sexually pleasing" my mother, telling me to "get this" (btw, I *do* get your point of view. But like you said, just because I disagree doesn't mean I don't understand), saying sarcastically that I "have it all figured out." I don't care what you in particular have to say anymore because there are several others making the same points as you, less the condescending, presumptuous crap. Bye


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

TCSRedhead said:


> While you are technically a legal adult, you ARE still a child you do still have some maturing left to go through. Part of being an adult is realizing what problems are yours and what problems are out of your control.
> 
> You've not found any evidence with the VARs or spying. Talk this all out in detail with your dad and lay this at his feet to handle.


Arguing about what an adult is or isn't is an endless one, so I won't do it anymore. About the "VARs," I planted one $15 recorder *once*, and that's about the only spying I've done; everything else has just been observations made in communal areas. It's not like there's been any persistence with the VARs at all, in fact, if there was, I'm 99% sure this thread would be headed in a completely different direction. 

What do I lay at his feet?


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

JUST TO MAKE THIS CLEAR

Like I said, I've been uncomfortable with recording, spying, snooping whole time. Ask the people who regularly post and know the whole story; I've been going back and forth this whole time. The characterization that I'm some little "Nancy Drew" planting recording devices in my mom's car for sh*ts and giggles is completely inaccurate, so if anyone thinks that, take a hint from the real Nancy or get lost *please*

Thanks.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

alyssa_s said:


> JUST TO MAKE THIS CLEAR
> 
> Like I said, I've been uncomfortable with recording, spying, snooping whole time. Ask the people who regularly post and know the whole story; I've been going back and forth this whole time. The characterization that I'm some little "Nancy Drew" planting recording devices in my mom's car for sh*ts and giggles is completely inaccurate, so if anyone thinks that, take a hint from the real Nancy or get lost *please*
> 
> Thanks.


I just replied to your PM. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

alyssa_s said:


> JUST TO MAKE THIS CLEAR
> 
> Like I said, I've been uncomfortable with recording, spying, snooping whole time. Ask the people who regularly post and know the whole story; I've been going back and forth this whole time. The characterization that I'm some little "Nancy Drew" planting recording devices in my mom's car for sh*ts and giggles is completely inaccurate, so if anyone thinks that, take a hint from the real Nancy or get lost *please*
> 
> Thanks.


Hey Alyssa,

States that arent two party states are usually one party states, so basically everyone who is using them to find evidence is doing so illegally. That being said I've stated my opposition to bugging your mom's car but you sound smart and very mature for a woman your age and I'm sure in the end you'll do what's right for your family. My question is what are you going to do for yourself? Are you going away to college? Getting out of this house sounds like it would do you tons of good.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

alyssa_s said:


> The characterization that I'm some little "Nancy Drew" planting recording devices in my mom's car for sh*ts and giggles is completely inaccurate, so if anyone thinks that, take a hint from the real Nancy or get lost *please*





alyssa_s said:


> calling me an "affair sniffing Nancy Drew,"




Since you brought it up twice on one page this is the only point I will address, as you seem to not realize you yourself are exhibiting all of the exact same characteristics you attempted to attack me and the other "dissenters" with. 

I did not call you Nancy Drew. Nobody called you Nancy Drew. I expressly stated finding it disturbing that adult posters here would be encouraging you to become a Nancy Drew. There is a difference.

I find this thread incredible. I find the advice you're getting very destructive and difficult to watch being ladled to a vulnerable teenager. I, and a few others, are highly disturbed. I've spoken to you strongly out of grave concern, of which you clearly have zero use for. Take care and be well.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

If my kids, who are now 19, 21 and 23, had taken it upon themselves to snoop on my husband behind my back when he was cheating, I cannot even imagine the harm it would have done to our family relationships.

I am glad you are reconsidering what you are doing. I also urge you to consider the way your mother acts towards you and your sister separately from the question of whether she's cheating. They're separate issues and should be dealt with separately.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Yes, totally separate. 

Also Alyssa, there are many situations that you could get yourself into that you want to keep private. I don't think I really need to list them but an unwanted pregnancy, getting an STD, an abusive relationship...

I think you want to know if she's cheating because you want to morally judge her. You have said things about not talking to her anymore if she is. 
It might be sad but many people forgive their cheating spouse and move on. That's why I don't think you need to get involved. 
It's very difficult because when you are young everything seems black and white, but for people who have been married a long time and lived a lot, it's just not. 
I think that is what I need to convey to you. You will never know all the intricacies of their relationship, not should you. 
Many people reconcile and move on. 
Is it morally right to cheat? No, but I would bet both your parents are dealing with something heavy. 
It sounds like there's already been talk of divorce. It could be they are trying to stay together for you guys. 
Why don't you just ask them? They aren't acting like a married couple. 
If they are going to live separate lives and stay in the same house they need to tell you that.
They don't need to tell you how they decided that. 
I think you need to ask them.


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## Crest (Feb 5, 2013)

Besides secret voice recorders, maybe think how much physical proof exists that your mom's misbehaving in a way that's actually sexual. How many obvious, tangible signs can you find that point to adultery, rather than just being in a messed up frame of mind?

The stuff about going to work conferences is circumstantial proof at best. Are there actual clothes, shoes, makeup or shopping bags physically in the house that would suggest she's trying to impress another man?
If not, rather than covertly taping your mom, you might have to consider she's just going through an awkward phase, and that seducing other men isn't necessarily part of it at all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jeffery (Oct 8, 2012)

Alyssa, so sorry you find your self having doubts about your mother. you seem to have an very insightful mind into Human interaction and can express yourself very well. I am impressed at your level of understanding, even more so because of your age. I would be curious to know if you have any idea of what course of study you might be interested when you enter Collage?

If your mother is cheating, then she is destroying her self along with a good number of people. So outting her could wake her up and can lead to her getting help and cutting down on some of the damage. I would definitely want to help my loved one if they were sick and not just sit there and watch them hurt.. How do i know this? My father cheated many times on my mother. I even answered the door one time and his AP with all smiles came asking for him. he had told her he was single and that my mother was his sister and we were her kids who where staying with him for a little while to help her get on her feet after Her Husband cheated WOW..

Your Damn right i exposed him to my mother..He was not remorseful and styed in and they divorced, to this day he is scared to BS me. But i do think i whet about this wrong and perhaps caused more pain. I have looked back and i feel it would have been better for me to go to my FATHER and confront him and give him a little time with a dead line to confess himself to my mother and if he failed to do this then after the deadline was past i would expose him. instead of finding out from me, my mother could perhaps been spared at least a little pain and humiliation.


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

I've decided to take GROUNDPOUNDER's "ignore list" advice.

Anyway, this morning I encouraged my dad to go to the event with my mom. Even though he got off work early, when he did get home my mom was just about ready to leave. As you can imagine she was surprised to see him, and initially she seemed angry about him showing up. She told him that if he was planning to go, he should have told her beforehand, and she kept telling him he was going to take too long to get ready and that she was going to miss her train. My mom's reaction shocked my dad and I'm pretty sure he was suppressing anger, but all he did was shrug and say, "Well I'm here." He went to shower but my mom was still pretty mad. She told my sister and me that she was leaving without him because she had to show up on time since her work was one of the event's sponsors. My mom told us that if he still wanted to go, it would be easier for him to drive instead of trying to take the train being that he doesn't know the schedule. She left us an address on a stickie note and told us to tell dad to Mapquest directions (he still doesn't have a smartphone ) if he still wanted to come, also saying that if he goes, he should call her before he leaves. My dad was super pissed when we told him what our mom said, but he still wanted to go. I think he simmered down by the time he printed out directions, because he was telling us how he should drive mom back to the train station so she won't have to wait for at night for a train. The event ended at 10, so I'm hoping for the best and hoping that they had fun together. They're not home yet, but they'll be back within the hour.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Really!
You think your folks are gona have fun?
Your mom is going to be pissed cuz she can't get laid cuz her husband is around and your dad is going to be pissed cuz his wife doesn't want to be around him!

Sorry I'm coming in late here, but normaly when someone you love takes the time off to be with them they responde in a positive way and enjoy the company and appretiate their effforts.

Your mom on the other hand had her own agenda and had no respect for the effort your dad made in being there for your mom.

Sorry girl but your folks will have anything but a fun time together.

I mean COME ON.....who leaves with out there spouse when they make the effort to come home early to be with them and join them for an event????????

IT AIN'T RIGHT !!!!!!!
And you and me and alot of us know whats going on.....I suspect so does your dad.

The big question is what is he going to do about sharing his wife with another man/men?


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## alyssa_s (Apr 16, 2013)

the guy said:


> Really!
> You think your folks are gona have fun?
> Your mom is going to be pissed cuz she can't get laid cuz her husband is around and your dad is going to be pissed cuz his wife doesn't want to be around him!
> 
> ...


You're right. My dad's been home for 25 minutes, my mom wanted to take the train back because having my dad drive her was "too much trouble," she's still not home, and her phone's off. If this doesn't wake my dad up then nothing will.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm sorry for the pain you are going thru.

Its not what knocks us down that matters, it how we get back up that counts!

Your mom still loves you and it sucks to be you but then again it suck to be me....

the-guy with the cheating wife 02/15/2010

Your dad needs a huge...I think both of you need a huge.......go phucking huge your dad tonight!!!!!!! don't say a word just hug your dad, tell him you love him and say good night.


I went through this crap 3 years ago and it sucks, told my daughter and she was very supportive, wrote me a long letter...it ment a lot.

Just go hug your dad.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

It sounds like your mom found a way to blow your dad off after all. I'm sorry but this does smell very badly like she was planning something tonight and he almost messed it up for her. 

Her refusing to ride with him, and instead it for the train is a major red flag it's someone at the event.

I'm guessing she will report missing the last train and had to stay in the city?

Talk to your dad again, voice your concerns to him. Point out last night and how it looks.

Btw,if you look you might find your mom originally packed an overnight bag and always intended to miss the last train.


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

It's the morning of the late comers I guess. I've kept up with your thread, but didn't pipe up cause there are wiser folks than I here. Just wanted to say good on ya for sticking to your guns. I didn't think it was a good idea for you to start surveillance on your mom. Not only is it a terrible position for a daughter to be in, but it also takes the initiative away from your pop. You're very strong willed, and with everything going crazy, you took it into your hands. You made the decision and ran with it. That sort of drive will serve you well in your life. 

For the folks who weren't helpful, or just plain nasty, just ignore em. Haters gonna hate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

What your mom is doing is out of place. Whatever she's doing is hurting the family.

You're also part of the family. If you want to figure out why the family is breaking apart, you have the right to do so.

Use whatever means you can to gather the information. You need to have patience. Do not reveal your source(s) ever. 

However, do not spend to much time or emotion on this. You need to also live your own life. Dont let your mom surreptitiously steal your life from you.

Hug your father. Tell him you love him.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Did you mom come home last night or this morning?


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

Did you finally tell your day to wake up and smell the coffee? You dad still can't be in denial now that your mom did not come home. Good luck.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

As hard as it may seem to believe, I think that everyone who has posted in this thread has your best interests in mind Alyssa. You're in a very difficult situation. There are legitimate concerns on both sides of the debate, good reasons to dig for info, and for why you should not do so. Perhaps people aren't as eloquent as they could be, but they are concerned for your well being, and for your family nonetheless.

In a perfect world, you wouldn't have to deal with this. Your parents would be able to figure out how to keep their relationship strong, and to be great parents and role models for you and your sisters. Or at least, given the situation you've described, your father would have picked up the clues that you have, and he would be the one here asking for advice and insight. He is the one who truly needs to take the initiative in this situation, but you can no more control him, than you can control your mother.

Perhaps last night will serve as a wake up for him. Maybe not. From where I sit, it seems as though your mom is disengaging from the marriage, and is likely in a physical affair. The marriage may be beyond repair, for one or the other of your parents, and there isn't much you or anyone else can do in truth. Because it is up to the two of them. They both would have to choose each other.

Your biggest job is to try to take care of yourself. To realise that this potential breakdown is not about you. That you are going to experience a flood of emotions. The hardest part is to just let them wash over you. Feel them, but let them pass, try not to get stuck, or carried away by them. That's so much easier to say, than to do. Your dad will always be your dad, your mom will always be your mom, and neither is perfect. They'll both **** up, royally sometimes, and they won't deal with situations in ways that they should. Just try to show love, compassion, and understanding to both of them, even if they don't seem to deserve it. Or at least maybe just stick with, I love you, but I can't support the choices you're making. Resist the urge to punish, to shame, to burn the bridges as best you can, as this plays out.


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