# What does Respect mean to you



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I ask this questions, because respect is a tough one for the women. We may think we are respecting you but you may not see it the same way.

What does respect mean to the men?

How does your wife show you respect? Or, how would you like to be respected? What about your wife's behavior do your regard as disrespectful?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Respect is believing that we will do what we should do - whether its taking out the trash, or wrestling grizzly bears to protect our families.

Respect of course needs to be earned, so someone who doesn't act as they should, is not deserving of and should not expect respect. This is complicated by a combination of honest forgetfulness (which is different from irresponsibility), and possibly conflicting responsibilities that may leave no good solution. 


The flip side is that failing to have faith in someone when they have not failed in the past is a sign of disrespect.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Respect is such a loaded word. It is often a screen to hide low self esteem. A wife screaming at her husband is somehow disrespecting him.

Respect is often brought up to make someone feel guilty or placing a judgment. By burning the flag you are supposedly disrespecting the men and women that fought for it.

For me respect is not demanded but is earned. 

But respect is also about listening. I have hurt my wife's feelings many times. As a consequence she has felt disrespected. It was certainly not my intention, but the feeling is there.

I feel respected by my wife. She looks up to me, but also gives me an honest feedback when she feels I come short. She listens to me. She cares about me.

When we were first together, I often felt disrespected. We had to adjust to each other, but I took her directness as an attack on me. 

Once I figured out my weaknesses and/or self esteem issues, our relationship improved. I felt more respected. I realized she was just trying to help me by being direct with me. I understood her better and knew she really cared about me.


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## wringo123 (Mar 8, 2015)

I think men expect to be respected for what they do, women want to be respected for who they are. Validation and respect to a woman are very closely related. To a man, admiration and respect are related.

In his mind, my husband respects me because he admires things about me, but essentially, I believe he lacks respect for me as a person. He ignores and minimizes issues that he knows upset me and cause me pain simply because he wants to pretend that certain things are not an issue. It is okay for me not to have my issues addressed, as long as it means he does not have to change.

If that is not disrespect, I don't know what is. But he will never see it that way.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

My W respects me and I respect her. Respect has never been an issue in our marriage. My W does have issues prioritizing me/our marriage when juggling our family, but I don't view that as a lack of respect.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I can get all the respect in the world for what I have made of my life in a business/financial aspect.but to be respected as a man or a partner is completely different.When my gf was pregnant we were having a custody agreement drawn up for reasons which have no bearing on this thread.I asked her did she want her own lawyer to check the agreement but she said she knew I would never do anything to hurt her or our baby.We weren't even living together at that stage but it is something that I appreciated then and I appreciate more every time I think about it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> I can get all the respect in the world for what I have made of my life in a business/financial aspect.but to be respected as a man or a partner is completely different.When my gf was pregnant we were having a custody agreement drawn up for reasons which have no bearing on this thread.I asked her did she want her own lawyer to check the agreement but she said she knew I would never do anything to hurt her or our baby.We weren't even living together at that stage but it is something that I appreciated then and I appreciate more every time I think about it.


Tricky word and can mean different things to different people (and can be confused with trust although respect probably comes out of trust).
Showing respect, is a form of behaviour. It is true that it is earned and not demanded.
I don't like the idea that men are supposed to be respected for what they do and women, for who they are. This seems like an asymmetry/double standard to me.

I feel both should respect each other *for who they are* but don't know whether this can be true in the real world: materialistic things/success comes and goes and some things are a matter of luck/fortune and beyond anyone's control on top of it.
But yes, it's also been drilled into me that women find men interesting for what they do and I never stopped working/dropped ambitions until I got close to the top/where I wanted to be (that's not because of women - by then I already had the woman I wanted; it was more because of me).
And lately I realise that this does not really matter as much as I thought it would and doesn't especially make me a more happy person overall. (I imagined it would be like climbing a mountain and being rewarded with a breathtaking/unique view/perspective of the world but in reality, it felt more like just a new plateau/level that one gets used to way too quickly and starts taking it for granted).

I also don't feel my wife would respect me less if I wasn't at the top of my profession. I actually prefer her values/view of the world (and to me, *that's* the essence of respect though I could be wrong). Though I realise that to survive/raise family etc, certain financial needs have to be met and no idea what it would be like if this was not the case and we had this strain hanging over us. I hope never to find out again. I originally came from a poor country where the government basically took everything away from hard working people at some point and had to work myself up, after family and I left it (I was a child then but remember my parents' struggles) so know and still remember what it's like to have absolutely nothing and worry whether they will have bread in the shops tomorrow.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

wringo123 said:


> *I think men expect to be respected for what they do*, women want to be respected for who they are. Validation and respect to a woman are very closely related. *To a man, admiration and respect are related.
> *
> In his mind, my husband respects me because he admires things about me, but essentially, I believe he lacks respect for me as a person. He ignores and minimizes issues that he knows upset me and cause me pain simply because he wants to pretend that certain things are not an issue. It is okay for me not to have my issues addressed, as long as it means he does not have to change.
> 
> If that is not disrespect, I don't know what is. But he will never see it that way.


Ding, ding, ding. Probably related to that desire the 'fix things' which can be a problem as well eh? Does he DO the right thing? That's deserving of respect. 

I think if a couple is having problems here one approach to address it for a women would be to look for areas outside the relationship where he does do the right thing which is worthy of respect and let him know that. "You know, it was really nice when you helped that older guy load his truck at the home center last weekend" or " where did you learn how to fix that mechanical thing, I wouldn't know where to start". 

Then you bring up the things that make you feel disrespected, use that word - disrespect. That should make him think, if he is feeling respected he can then address your issue even though it may not on the surface make sense to him. On the other hand, if everything he feels he should be respected for are on your list of things not worthy of being commented on cause you know - he's SUPPOSED TO DO THAT <g>. Why should he give a flying **** about you thinking he's disrespectful about something that doesn't register as a respect issue?

I'm not saying he shouldn't respect you in the ways you think is respectful, of course he should. But we think differently and who's on first here?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Respect is extraordinarily important to me; in marriage, and in life. You don't have to like me, but a basic level of respect is imperative.

I don't compromise on this. I expect to not be talked down to, nagged, snarked at, belittled, or treated like a child. I didn't get married to have a second mother. We are equals and partners who happen to be in love, and I expect to have that reflected in our interactions. 

Respect is also appreciating who I am, not who you'd dream me to be. I don't want, or need, to change you, and I expect the same. 

Respect is built into the foundation, day one. I don't believe in "earning" respect. We respect each other as human beings.

My wife is extremely respectful of me; it's one of my favorite things about her. But I wouldn't have married her, or anyone, if they weren't since this is a major deal breaker for me. I know a few other couples, all in their 20s and 30s, where I'm great friends with the husbands, and get along well with the wives, and I'm shocked at how some of these women talk to their husbands. In at least two cases the husbands are super, duper nice, sweet guys, good providers too, who are generally very respectful to their wives. Doesn't stop their wives from catching attitudes often, talking down, being snarky, sometimes yelling and screaming, all in public view. I told one of the wives, who I love as a person, straight up that if we were married one of us would be dead in a week.

Just because of the way I was raised it's very, very hard for me to fathom men staying in relationships with disrespectful women.


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

There is no form of respect more important than self-respect. Without it, you have no foundation for any form of respect from anybody else. A big part of that is rising above self doubt and open _dis_respect from others. 

That being said, IME I've found that it cuts both ways and the only way you can get respect from others by showing _them_ a measure of respect. Maybe not to the point of flattery but certainly an affirmation every now and then by saying "I understand how you feel" but well short of ass kissing. That's derogatory to your self-respect IMO and will actually cause you to lose respect - especially if you've done wrong by that person.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

My concept of a good marriage is:

* Both spouses work equally hard to support the family (which includes supporting each other).
* Each spouse considers the other's wants and needs equal to his or her own.

So, disrespect is anything inconsistent with those concepts. Refusing to contribute financially, refusing to pitch in around the home, nagging, belittling, restricting sex... all of those and other complaints you see here on TAM violate one of those concepts, IMO.

Now, of course, if you and your spouse cannot agree on what a marriage should look like, well then you'll keep butting heads without a resolution.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

aine said:


> I ask this questions, because respect is a tough one for the women. We may think we are respecting you but you may not see it the same way.
> 
> What does respect mean to the men?
> 
> How does your wife show you respect? Or, how would you like to be respected? What about your wife's behavior do your regard as disrespectful?


As I've read various books on couples work, and as I've read articles written by professionals, the most common definition of respect, at least in terms of something I can grasp is this:

Respect is something offered. It is not a thing that needs to be earned. Like trust, it is 100% a thing to be offered by one person to another. Trust, it is said, means that you expect that what the person tells you is true to the best of their ability (for instance, I'm horribly disorganized, and I'm more likely than others to miss appointments, but it's not because I WANT to miss them...so when I say I'll meet you at a certain time, I will, unless I misplace my calendar app, etc).

Respect is a counterpart - if you respect a person, it means than when they say things to you and do things for you, you believe that they are doing so with the intention of acting positively on your behalf...that they are not being selfish and not trying to pull one over on you.

As a generalization, psychologically healthy people intrinsically trust people and have respect for them, and only cease when the person gives them due cause...at that point, either trust or respect need to be re-earned.

That's kind of a summary of concepts I've encountered over, maybe, 5-8 years.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

DustyDog said:


> As I've read various books on couples work, and as I've read articles written by professionals, the most common definition of respect, at least in terms of something I can grasp is this:
> 
> Respect is something offered. It is not a thing that needs to be earned. Like trust, it is 100% a thing to be offered by one person to another. Trust, it is said, means that you expect that what the person tells you is true to the best of their ability (for instance, I'm horribly disorganized, and I'm more likely than others to miss appointments, but it's not because I WANT to miss them...so when I say I'll meet you at a certain time, I will, unless I misplace my calendar app, etc).


But...are you going to keep respecting someone if they keep misplacing their calendar app and being late all the time? I can offer them my respect the first few times but if they keep disappointing me, they'll need to earn my respect back...


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> But...are you going to keep respecting someone if they keep misplacing their calendar app and being late all the time? I can offer them my respect the first few times but if they keep disappointing me, they'll need to earn my respect back...


If I believe that their misplacement of the calendar app has nothing to do with their attitude toward me, I see no reason to not respect them. In other words, if this is due to them - and everybody receives this treatment - no loss of respect. One does have to have tolerance for the existence of people who don't do things we do as well as we do.

One of the quotes Gottman points out in his interviews "How come that's hard for you???? I could do that since I was four!!!" - a great way to start a divorce. By blowing off the fact that we are all individuals and demanding that whatever works for you, your partner must become good at also.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

For me, respect is a non-judgmental acceptance of (and possibly an admiration of) who a person is, where a person comes from, what a person wants to be, and how a person believes... even if those things are not in accord with our own ideals. 

To exemplify this, I will feel disrespected if my wife does any of the following: discounts my past hardships or my past decisions that have made me into the person I am today; speaks poorly of my family and refuses to interact with them; doesn't support my pursuit of happiness through my ambitions and my dreams; throws out my opinion, constantly dubbing it as "irrelevant" in many of our discussions.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Respect. I don't know, but I feel respected by my wife.

She loves to tease me, though.

About two years ago I failed to insert the first of these new chipped credit cards correctly into the reader. I quipped I must have not pushed it in far enough. Mary laughed, and said, to the clerk, "Yeah, I always have to tell him to push it in harder!" 

I could only shake my head and sigh.

Those cards are a nuisance. They fail to read a lot of times. Several months ago at the store I put my credit card into the reader. My wife has a habit of fiddling with the card while it is being read. Several times it has failed while she has been making sure my card is inserted far enough, or whatever it is she is doing when she does that. As she reached for it, I said, "Don't touch." 

Mary piped up, "I'll touch if I want to!" She immediately started jabbing the card, the reader, my arm, my side, with her finger, rapid fire. She tells me the clerk was backing away in shock. I only had eyes for her.

I had to laugh.

Interestingly the card reader didn't fail that time. Mary laughed. She told me, "See, it's fine." 

We do have a very different relationship, though.

I think she respects me with all her heart. But it has been said I have enough ego for any 5 other guys. So it's not like she can hurt my ego.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> Respect is such a loaded word. It is often a screen to hide low self esteem. A wife screaming at her husband is somehow disrespecting him.
> 
> Respect is often brought up to make someone feel guilty or placing a judgment. By burning the flag you are supposedly disrespecting the men and women that fought for it.
> 
> ...


This is something my H has a problem with, I am direct. He asks me for an opinion I give it, warts and all, then he is annoyed with my honesty. It's taken me years to learn that men's egos are so much more fragile than a womans.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

anonmd said:


> Ding, ding, ding. Probably related to that desire the 'fix things' which can be a problem as well eh? Does he DO the right thing? That's deserving of respect.
> 
> I think if a couple is having problems here one approach to address it for a women would be to look for areas outside the relationship where he does do the right thing which is worthy of respect and let him know that. "You know, it was really nice when you helped that older guy load his truck at the home center last weekend" or " where did you learn how to fix that mechanical thing, I wouldn't know where to start".
> 
> ...


I agree that women tend to respect men for who they are rather than what they do. Therefore when the man works hard, rises up the ladder but this takes away time from the wife and family she might not respect him as much as he thinks she ought to for all he does. She sees it as him putting his work/career first and he sees it as working hard for the family and therefore worthy of respect. We have been in this situation, I try to get him to see the impact working long hours has on the marriage and family, he sees it as nagging and not appreciating him and ultimately not respecting him.
I have heard comments such as I am admired and looked up to in my office but not at home. Whereas I think, how can I look up to someone who is never around and barely engages with the me or the family, this happened a lot when the kids were teenagers.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

aine said:


> This is something my H has a problem with, I am direct. He asks me for an opinion I give it, warts and all, then he is annoyed with my honesty. It's taken me years to learn that men's egos are so much more fragile than a womans.


We could not have stayed together if Dug had not changed. It only took a few weeks for him to get over his shock and anger and realize he could actually learn from me.

I remember him looking at me in the hallway, saying, as though he were stunned by it, "You cannot lie." He was not used to that.

But he quickly came to appreciate it.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

aine said:


> This is something my H has a problem with, I am direct. He asks me for an opinion I give it, warts and all, then he is annoyed with my honesty. It's taken me years to learn that men's egos are so much more fragile than a womans.


Huge generalization there!

Its taken me years to realise the women manipulate men with statement like this .


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

jld said:


> We could not have stayed together if Dug had not changed. It only took a few weeks for him to get over his shock and anger and realize he could actually learn from me.
> 
> I remember him looking at me in the hallway, saying, as though he were stunned by it, "You cannot lie." He was not used to that.
> 
> But he quickly came to appreciate it.


Same here, in his better moments H will say 'you know you are right' but that will be after he has time to ruminate, consult someone else, etc. The last part annoys me :scratchhead:


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

aine said:


> Same here, in his better moments H will say 'you know you are right' but that will be after he has time to ruminate, consult someone else, etc. The last part annoys me :scratchhead:


Which last part, the time to ruminate or the consulting someone else? Or both? Cause time to ruminate is absolutely normal. We do not think as quickly as you do when discussing the things you want to discuss. In fact, we don't think about them until you bring em up unless they are impacting the things we do think about all the time (sex, fixing the sink, work, sex, hobbies, sex, what am I doing this weekend, sex) , then maybe .


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

aine said:


> Same here, in his better moments H will say 'you know you are right' but that will be after he has time to ruminate, consult someone else, etc. The last part annoys me :scratchhead:


I am sure it does. Make sure you point that out to him.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

aine said:


> I agree that women tend to respect men for who they are rather than what they do. Therefore when the man works hard, rises up the ladder but this takes away time from the wife and family she might not respect him as much as he thinks she ought to for all he does. She sees it as him putting his work/career first and he sees it as working hard for the family and therefore worthy of respect. We have been in this situation, I try to get him to see the impact working long hours has on the marriage and family, he sees it as nagging and not appreciating him and ultimately not respecting him.
> I have heard comments such as I am admired and looked up to in my office but not at home. Whereas I think, how can I look up to someone who is never around and barely engages with the me or the family, this happened a lot when the kids were teenagers.


FYI, if you occasionally offer up some deep respect for how hard he works for the family you can criticize / complain / nag about his long hours, lack of presence etc. I'd guess somewhere between 1:3 and 1:5 is about right, we don't take much


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

aine said:


> I ask this questions, because respect is a tough one for the women. We may think we are respecting you but you may not see it the same way.
> 
> What does respect mean to the men?
> 
> How does your wife show you respect? Or, how would you like to be respected? What about your wife's behavior do your regard as disrespectful?


*Preeminently and from a strict standpoint of sheer marital reciprocity, to be talked to and with, respectfully addressed out of love rather than angst or anger, to share each other's joys just as we share each other's sorrows! And to know that there is absolutely no problem between us that is neither too great or too small to be addressed and rationally discussed! 

And to know that we each have marked tasks is supplying help with lovingly and unselfishly being able to try to earnestly go about satisfying each other's physiological and psychological needs!*


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

anonmd said:


> Which last part, the time to ruminate or the consulting someone else? Or both? Cause time to ruminate is absolutely normal. We do not think as quickly as you do when discussing the things you want to discuss. In fact, we don't think about them until you bring em up unless they are impacting the things we do think about all the time (sex, fixing the sink, work, sex, hobbies, sex, what am I doing this weekend, sex) , then maybe .



LOL, consulting other people and then coming to the same conclusion maybe 3 days later


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

aine said:


> LOL, consulting other people and then coming to the same conclusion maybe 3 days later


That's fair, I think. Although, I bet you 'consult' with your girlfriends about your husband somewhat often.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

This is what I think is the biggest factor in respect between men and women.
Women need to realise that their husbands/partners are not their girlfriends,men do not think about things in the same way as they do.That goes the other way around as well.
I'm very new to this living with a significant other idea so of course there are going to be misunderstandings,that's normal,but if I'm doing something that you think is disrespectful then tell me. Don't expect me to have an epiphany and realise that what I've been doing for years is not the way it should be done.Just tell me,I can take it.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

This is an interesting topic and thread. 

There are people that believe respect should always be given. Like when you have a spouse, respect and sex should be given. Others believe it's earned. 
There are 2 types of thinking going on here. On one end people think it's your job as a spouse to love, support, respect, encourage, take care of, have Sex with your spouse. The other end is, it's not my job to do anything, respect and love is earned not freely given. Sex is given when one wants it because they feel desire not because it's their job. 

My husband was raised in a way that being a husband means automatic respect from wife. That sex should be given to a certain extent because your married. To me, respect is earned. Sex happens when I want it or feel like it. Some will say Sex is "earned". A common problem with my husband and I is... at the end of the day he says to me... do you want to have sex? My answer is always no. I hate when he asks me for sex, it's such a turn off for me. To me, your actions will make me have sex with you and/or respect you. If your constantly lying and not doing what you say your going to I can't respect that. Our actions lead other people to love, respect, hate, trust us etc.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> My husband was raised in a way that being a husband means automatic respect from wife. That sex should be given to a certain extent because your married. To me, respect is earned. Sex happens when I want it or feel like it. Some will say Sex is "earned". A common problem with my husband and I is... at the end of the day he says to me... do you want to have sex? My answer is always no. I hate when he asks me for sex, it's such a turn off for me. To me, your actions will make me have sex with you and/or respect you. If your constantly lying and not doing what you say your going to I can't respect that. Our actions lead other people to love, respect, hate, trust us etc.


Were the two of you 100% honest and clear with each other about your differences in perspective about these areas _before_ you got married?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jaquen said:


> Were the two of you 100% honest and clear with each other about your differences in perspective about these areas _before_ you got married?




Of course not.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I think as you say, that respect for men from women is fleeting. It's like the in thing for women to disrespect their husbands. It's on TV everywhere, in the workplace, just about everywhere you look. Even our own receptionist at work disrespects practically every man that walks through the door.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> I think as you say, that respect for men from women is fleeting. It's like the in thing for women to disrespect their husbands. It's on TV everywhere, in the workplace, just about everywhere you look. Even our own receptionist at work disrespects practically every man that walks through the door.




How? Give examples of women disrespecting men.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> How? Give examples of women disrespecting men.


Every time I walk through the door of a business establishment it seems as though one gender is always aware of someone walking through a door just behind them and gladly gives the door an extra push to help it stay open, while the other gender will just allow it to slam in your face as if they are not aware of the person walking behind them.

Seriously, I was walking into Chic-fil-a the other day to grab breakfast. I was less than four feet behind the woman in front of me as I entered the door holding my son's hand and she pretty much just let the door slam in his face as if we were not even there. This type of thing has happened repeatedly, and men seem to always hold the door, particularly for someone helping young children through a crowded parking lot. 

Badsanta


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> How? Give examples of women disrespecting men.


Practically every network tv comedy show that's on is filled with examples. Five minutes ago our receptionist told this guy who made a delivery to leave and get out of her face "I've had to deal with too many idiots already today". Twenty years ago, anyone would have gotten fired on the spot for that. Not today, it's accepted behavior. Personally I was appalled. If she was working for me, I would have fired her.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Every time I walk through the door of a business establishment it seems as though one gender is always aware of someone walking through a door just behind them and gladly gives the door an extra push to help it stay open, while the other gender will just allow it to slam in your face as if they are not aware of the person walking behind them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I find it interesting that you tie this in to gender. 
I've had the door slam in my face plenty of times, I chock it up to them not realizing how close I was, or just bad manners. 
And I notice that it's different when I go. When I'm down south people are so nice and heh make an effort to open the door to everyone. When I was at my college (Christian college) everyone made an effort to be nice. I had girls actually fold my laundry from the dryer before. Now that I'm in NYC/NJ people are in a rush and don't care and don't often hold the door, unless the person was raised a certain way.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> Practically every network tv comedy show that's on is filled with examples. Five minutes ago our receptionist told this guy who made a delivery to leave and get out of her face "I've had to deal with too many idiots already today". Twenty years ago, anyone would have gotten fired on the spot for that. Not today, it's accepted behavior. Personally I was appalled. If she was working for me, I would have fired her.




But is this a gender issue or just a rude women with no manners? 
I think overall respect has gone down hill. But I don't think respect for men only has gone out the window. At least that's not what I see in real life. Yes TV is a different story.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I always assume everyone is going to actively slam the door in my face. Every human is a source of irritation. I usually hang back to make sure they get the hell away so I can take care of the door myself.

People infest the earth. Veger had the right idea.

I certainly never noticed a gender difference regarding who might try to hold a door for someone else. I agree you are introducing bias with your prejudice.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

I can't quite point my finger on it but something is on my mind.

What is respect or disrespect? I guess I'd answer it by saying I don't know but I know it when I feel it. So is a definition really all that important? Doesn't everyone pretty much recognize it according to their own experiences and tolerance?

I know when someone is being hurtful and insensitive to me and when I am doing it to others. Maybe it's due to something happening at that moment or an accumulation of several seemingly innocuous acts...nonetheless we feel it and assume we try to address by talking it out. If we feel it happening too often and it's become personally intolerable then it might be time to escalate. 

Living isn't all that mechanical is it? You know like what is respect, what isn't? Hmmm, let me jot down a list of boundaries while I'm at so I can bump up my daily interactions against it. I watched a commercial last night and certain I have all those symptoms and my partner won't pamper me. 

I was an athlete for a long time. We trained techniques until they were muscle memory because in competition there isn't time to consciously think of the mechanics. We react based on basic instincts. 

We know when we are screwing up and we know when we are out of position because we know the fundamentals. We don't ignore it for six months so that what's wrong has become routine muscle memory, we start fixing it right after the match. 

It just seems to be a lot of overthinking. But I'm divorced so maybe I should have trained a bit more.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I never knew respect would be such a thing in my life until I got married and realized that what one thinks is respectful/disrespectful is way different than someone else. I just thought everyone be nice to each other and that's respect. Then I married into an old school Italian family and what they thought was respectful was not at all what I thought it was. And I actually thought and still feel like they are disrespectful even though they don't think they are. And they often think my behavior is disrespectful when I don't think so at all.

It's hard because how you feel doesn't always change even when you understand. I still FEEL disrespected at times even when I know that it's just cultural and not meant to be. It's weird.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

But respect can also show people's insecurities. My MIL is a strong women who works full time and has a good job. My FIL retired years ago after having a crappy factory job, so he stays home. My husband always tells me that he feels emasculated but is really happy for his wife. But feels disrespected by her very easily, that maybe he wouldn't feel disrespected if he was more secure with himself.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

:rofl::rofl::rofl:



aine said:


> This is something my H has a problem with, I am direct. He asks me for an opinion I give it, warts and all, then he is annoyed with my honesty. *It's taken me years to learn that men's egos are so much more fragile than a womans.*


Seriously though, some *persons* egos are more fragile than other *persons* egos. Nothing to do with gender.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EasyPartner said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Seriously though, some *persons* egos are more fragile than other *persons* egos. Nothing to do with gender.


If that were true, "male pride" and "the fragile male ego" would not be such common ideas, known around the world.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> If that were true, "male pride" and "the fragile male ego" would not be such common ideas, known around the world.


This is akin to the point JB made earlier about women disrespecting men being commonplace.

Or that women are spenders...

Or that men are idiots...

Or that women are the only LD partners...

Anecdotal evidence and stereotypes do not make it universal truth...or even common for that matter.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> This is akin to the point JB made earlier about women disrespecting men being commonplace.
> 
> Or that women are spenders...
> 
> ...


When an idea is known around the world, then I think there has to be some truth to it.

YMMV.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> When an idea is known around the world, then I think there has to be some truth to it.
> 
> YMMV.


So is dumb blonde an acceptable worldwide view about women.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> So is dumb blonde an acceptable worldwide view about women.


Is it a worldwide view?

Do some countries even have blondes?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Is it a worldwide view?
> 
> Do some countries even have blondes?


Google dumb blonde jokes and you may be amazed.I'm very surprised you haven't heard the expression.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> Google dumb blonde jokes and you may be amazed.I'm very surprised you haven't heard the expression.


I have heard it, in the West. But not in India, where I never saw a natural Indian blonde.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> I have heard it, in the West. But not in India, where I never saw a natural Indian blonde.


Do you live in India?.I thought you lived in the US.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> Do you live in India?.I thought you lived in the US.


I do. But we also lived 3 years in India.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> I do. But we also lived 3 years in India.


What a difference in culture that must have been.I worked with some Indian men and women and I was struck by their outlook on life compared to ours.Their work ethic,the value they place on education,the way they accept they are responsible for their parents when they get old,it's a different world.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> What a difference in culture that must have been.I worked with some Indian men and women and I was struck by their outlook on life compared to ours.Their work ethic,the value they place on education,the way they accept they are responsible for their parents when they get old,it's a different world.


It definitely is.

You know what is interesting? The Indians thought our family fit well in their culture. 

The food is great, btw. Going to have upma later today.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> It definitely is.
> 
> You know what is interesting? The Indians thought our family fit well in their culture.
> 
> The food is great, btw. Going to have upma later today.


I just googled upma.I won't tell you what it looks like to me.😳.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> Of course not.


Those are enormous, fundamental differences in relationship views. Why didn't you all discuss that before agreeing to a lifetime vow?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> I just googled upma.I won't tell you what it looks like to me.😳.


It _tastes_ great. 

Especially with sambhar and tomato chutney.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> It _tastes_ great.
> 
> Especially with sambhar and tomato chutney.


I'm still waiting for you to mention something that I would eat.Anyway I normally only have two different foodstuffs on a plate or if I'm feeling adventurous three.Anymore is just a distraction.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> I'm still waiting for you to mention something that I would eat.Anyway I normally only have two different foodstuffs on a plate or if I'm feeling adventurous three.Anymore is just a distraction.


Andy, Andy, Andy. What are we going to do with you? There is a world full of delicious vegetable food out there, just waiting for you to explore it.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jaquen said:


> Those are enormous, fundamental differences in relationship views. Why didn't you all discuss that before agreeing to a lifetime vow?




We did pre marital counseling, we discussed a lot of things. This wasn't one of them. 
Honestly it doesn't matter anyway. People change and view change. Just because something was discussed before hand doesn't mean that what they said in that time is written in stone for life. A lot of things that we talked about in pre marital counseling and said that we believe in have changed today. That's life.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

katiecrna said:


> We did pre marital counseling, we discussed a lot of things. This wasn't one of them.
> Honestly it doesn't matter anyway. People change and view change. Just because something was discussed before hand doesn't mean that what they said in that time is written in stone for life. A lot of things that we talked about in pre marital counseling and said that we believe in have changed today. That's life.


You started dating in high school, no? 

How old were each of you when you got married?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jld said:


> You started dating in high school, no?
> 
> 
> 
> How old were each of you when you got married?



Yes we are high school sweethearts. We were 26 when we got married.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> We did pre marital counseling, we discussed a lot of things. This wasn't one of them.
> *Honestly it doesn't matter anyway.* People change and view change. Just because something was discussed before hand doesn't mean that what they said in that time is written in stone for life. A lot of things that we talked about in pre marital counseling and said that we believe in have changed today. That's life.


Did this particular issue change for you, or him, since marriage? Saying discussing a core, fundamental value before marriage "doesn't matter", because one might change, is an incredible stance to take.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jaquen said:


> Did this particular issue change for you, or him, since marriage? Saying discussing a core, fundamental value before marriage "doesn't matter", because one might change, is an incredible stance to take.




We were both born again Christians. Waited till marriage to have sex. Went to church. Read our bibles and prayed together. We have similar beliefs about things that pertain to our religion. 
Current day, my husband changes his beliefs and therefore his behavior. Doesn't go to church, doesn't pray with me. Speaks in a way that I find offensive and In a way he would never say before.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

​


jld said:


> If that were true, "male pride" and "the fragile male ego" would not be such common ideas, known around the world.


Straying from the original question but I'll take the bait.

What is a fragile ego anyway? When does it show? IMO, when a person (over)reacts in a defensive manner to ill-perceived words or actions of others that he or she takes as a personal attack. If those feelings and reactions come from places like inadequacy, anxiety or loneliness, the fragility of ego is showing...

EVERYONE on this planet can and does have those feelings, some more, some less. NOBODY's ego is made out of cast iron, not even a narcissist's; quite the contrary. Hence it is not a gender issue per se.

However, untill recently, the word was a patriarchal one, almost 100%. Men had all the real power. The (ideal?) stereotype of the strong man, in charge of all and everything, the rock in the surf etc vs (not so ideal) weak and emotion-led women is still very much alive though... known around the world, as you put it, @jld.

So I suggest a nuance to Aine's statement: "It's taken me years to learn that men's egos are so much more fragile" *than we women were thaught.*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EasyPartner said:


> ​
> Straying from the original question but I'll take the bait.
> 
> What is a fragile ego anyway? When does it show? IMO, when a person (over)reacts in a defensive manner to ill-perceived words or actions of others that he or she takes as a personal attack. If those feelings and reactions come from places like inadequacy, anxiety or loneliness, the fragility of ego is showing...
> ...


You questioned aine's statement, and I questioned yours, as is the nature of a discussion. I am not seeing any "bait" in there.

The ideas brought up in this post could be the subject of an interesting thread. Maybe someday we will have that discussion.

But in the meantime, rest assured that I recognize that women can also have fragile egos. 

And I would certainly agree that the more power and influence that such people have, male or female, the more potential there is that they could make unwise decisions that, while perhaps protecting their fragile egos, are unlikely to serve the best interests of the wider community.

I am just not sure that, if the roles had been reversed, we would necessarily see the same historical fallout.

Again, could be the subject of an interesting thread. But, for now, back to what respect means to men . . .


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

EasyPartner said:


> ​
> Straying from the original question but I'll take the bait.
> 
> What is a fragile ego anyway? When does it show? IMO, when a person (over)reacts in a defensive manner to ill-perceived words or actions of others that he or she takes as a personal attack. If those feelings and reactions come from places like inadequacy, anxiety or loneliness, the fragility of ego is showing...
> ...


Since I said it, I will take the bait also. Women and men assume men are the tough, strong, have it all together, are capable, all round alphas etc. Boys are taught not to cry, to not share their emotions, to be the leaders, the go getters, the problem solvers, etc. However, the male ego is not as tough as it is made out to be. Men's value and worth (ego) are all tied up in how they appear to others, especially their wives. That is why respect is so important. Women (imo) are emotionally stronger and men depend on that strength, I believe there is nothing as disheartening and soul destroying to a man is a wife who belittles (lack of respect) and fails to encourage her H. This is what I meant.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

aine said:


> Since I said it, I will take the bait also. Women and men assume men are the tough, strong, have it all together, are capable, all round alphas etc. Boys are taught not to cry, to not share their emotions, to be the leaders, the go getters, the problem solvers, etc. However, the male ego is not as tough as it is made out to be.* Men's value and worth (ego) are all tied up in how they appear to others, especially their wives.* That is why respect is so important. Women (imo) are emotionally stronger and men depend on that strength, I believe there is nothing as disheartening and soul destroying to a man is a wife who belittles (lack of respect) and fails to encourage her H. This is what I meant.


The bolded is definitely not true for my husband.

Dug is emotionally independent. I cannot shake his belief in himself, nor can anyone else. 

I can certainly offer ideas that, if they make more sense than his own, he will consider and allow to influence his thinking. But his sense of self is solid, regardless of how I may treat him at any particular time.

And I can assure you I am not emotionally stronger than he is. Quite the opposite.

The kind of man you describe, aine, may be the more typical male, though. And that sure looks like a lot of work for their wives, at least from my perspective.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

The whole "fragile male ego" observation is based completely on context.

It's not that men's egos are more fragile than women. It's that we're largely socialized, men and women, to believe certain myths about men. That we are, or are supposed to be, strong rocks that are generally emotionally shallow, largely unaffected, stoic, and tough to a fault. So many (not all) fall in line and either hide our rich emotional complexities, or don't spend much time actually acknowledging them at all. We, of course, are human, and therefore are subject to the same breadth and depth of emotion as any woman, even if we express that differently.

But the male ego seems fragile when what is taught doesn't line up with reality. So you have scores of men who don't live up to the stoic, unaffected image many of us try so hard to portray. That we are, gasp, sensitive, and vulnerable, and perhaps even more underdeveloped in handling our complexities precisely because we're wrongly taught such complexities don't even exist, or if they do, they're somehow less than masculine. 

So we aren't more fragile than women. We just seem more in comparison to the myth.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Some men actually are emotionally strong. They are sensitive to women's feelings without taking women's reactions personally.

These men may not be typical, but they absolutely do exist. And they are the only kind that I personally would find it worthwhile to be married to.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

jld said:


> They are sensitive to women's feelings without taking women's reactions personally.


What exactly do you consider "women's reactions" to be?


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> This is what I think is the biggest factor in respect between men and women.
> 
> Women need to realise that their husbands/partners are not their girlfriends,men do not think about things in the same way as they do.That goes the other way around as well.
> 
> I'm very new to this living with a significant other idea so of course there are going to be misunderstandings,that's normal,but if I'm doing something that you think is disrespectful then tell me. Don't expect me to have an epiphany and realise that what I've been doing for years is not the way it should be done.Just tell me,I can take it.




You will be an awesome partner...being open to feedback is a great skill. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Haiku said:


> I can't quite point my finger on it but something is on my mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I am similar. And working towards single again lol but I highly agree with you. Life is too short. Trust and respect myself, external validation isn't as important. It's okay if others need it, but I'm not that motivated to stick my nose where it doesn't belong. Do a, b, c. Sure. No problem. "Make me feel like a man". Uhhh..not sure I want the responsibility. But I respect that I was asked.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

jaquen said:


> What exactly do you consider "women's reactions" to be?


Let me give an example.

Let's say a woman gets mad at her husband for not doing a job she has asked him repeatedly to do. She raises her voice and tells him she cannot believe how irresponsible he has been. 

An emotionally immature man might say something like this: "I can't believe how disrespectful she is, raising her voice to me like that! How dare she talk that way to me, calling me irresponsible! No way I am going to do that job until she apologizes! I won't do anything else she asks, either! That'll teach her to treat me right!"

An emotionally mature man, otoh, might respond like this: "Wife, you are right. You have asked me to do that job several times, and I just put it off. I understand your frustration. And I am really sorry to be the source of it." And then he goes and does the job.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

In the example provided why isn't the woman considered immature for having such a volatile reaction? What exactly is mature about yelling at another adult, particularly over something she wants done?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

jaquen said:


> In the example provided why isn't the woman considered immature for having such a volatile reaction? What exactly is mature about yelling at another adult, particularly over something she wants done?


It may not be ideal, but I certainly think it is understandable, especially if it is not a job she can do herself.

Jaquen, someone needs to take leadership when tension is escalating. That baton is likely going to be passed between the partners throughout the length of the marriage.

But if you have read for any length of time on this forum, you may have seen that women often respect and appreciate and may even find themselves feeling sexually attracted when their husbands can temporarily set their own frustrations aside and first show empathy to their wives. That kind of leadership in men can be very appealing.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Are we talking mutually acceptable behavior? If a man has repeatedly made requests of his wife, to no avail, is it OK for him to raise his voice and tell the wife how irresponsible she is?

And is the mature female response, "Hubbie, you are right. You have asked me to do that job several times, and I just put it off. I understand your frustration. And I am really sorry to be the source of it." And then she goes and does the job."?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Are we talking mutually acceptable behavior? If a man has repeatedly made requests of his wife, to no avail, is it OK for him to raise his voice and tell the wife how irresponsible she is?
> 
> And is the mature female response, "Hubbie, you are right. You have asked me to do that job several times, and I just put it off. I understand your frustration. And I am really sorry to be the source of it." And then she goes and does the job."?


I think that would show a lot of leadership on the wife's part.

Not too sure how sexually attracted she will feel towards a man who raises his voice to her, though.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

jld said:


> I think that would show a lot of leadership on the wife's part.
> 
> Not too sure how sexually attracted she will feel towards a man who raises his voice to her, though.


I wouldn't be too sexually attracted to a woman who thinks she can yell at me, so I can understand that feeling.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

jaquen said:


> I wouldn't be too sexually attracted to a woman who thinks she can yell at me, so I can understand that feeling.


Then in your case, a wife may need to take the leadership role in the relationship, if she is concerned about keeping you sexually attracted to her.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

I'm confused :scratchhead: 

Why is it leadership to refrain from yelling at people? Isn't that just common respect?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I'm confused :scratchhead:
> 
> Why is it leadership to refrain from yelling at people? Isn't that just common respect?


First, did you read the earlier posts between Jaquen and me?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> First, did you read the earlier posts between Jaquen and me?


Yes, and I'm also not sure I understand why it is leadership to do what one has been asked/told to do ....


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Yes, and I'm also not sure I understand why it is leadership to do what one has been asked/told to do ....


The leadership comes from using the emotionally mature response in the face of her husband's emotion. 

Instead of focusing on her husband's emotional reaction, and whatever might be her own immediate feelings about the rightness or wrongness or fairness of it, she calms him down by first responding to his distress with empathy. That de-escalates the tension. 

To me, that ability to temporarily set aside one's own emotions and de-escalate conflict by employing empathy with one's partner is leadership. 

And I certainly agree it could have been avoided by doing what was asked in the first place.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

jld said:


> Then in your case, a wife may need to take the leadership role in the relationship, if she is concerned about keeping you sexually attracted to her.


"A wife"? Not applicable to me.

My wife? That's not how my marriage works. My wife would tell you in a heartbeat she considers me the "leader" in our household. I have no idea why my wife would need to "take the leadership role" for me to be sexually attracted to her.

Edit: Nevermind. Just saw your above response.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

jld said:


> The leadership comes from using the emotionally mature response in the face of her husband's emotion.
> 
> Instead of focusing on her husband's emotional reaction, and whatever might be her own immediate feelings about the rightness or wrongness or fairness of it, she calms him down by first responding to his distress with empathy. That de-escalates the tension.
> 
> ...


Why is the assumption that two emotionally sound, healthy adults need to subvert their "immediate feelings" and "de-escalate" this apparent "tension"?

I grew up in a house hold where we got very boisterous in conflict, a lot of raised voices and impassioned hollering. My wife is not that kind of person at all. Rare is there yelling, hollering, etc in our home. We don't argue, we discuss. Empathy and understanding are mutually employed. Isn't that the point?

Please do correct me if I'm misreading you, but you seem to think that relationships are comprised of one wild, volatile person, who gives it, and one calm, sensible person who can "take it". No?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Why is the assumption that two emotionally sound, healthy adults need to subvert their "immediate feelings" and "de-escalate" this apparent "tension"?
> 
> I grew up in a house hold where we got very boisterous in conflict, a lot of raised voices and impassioned hollering. My wife is not that kind of person at all. Rare is there yelling, hollering, etc in our home. We don't argue, we discuss. Empathy and understanding are mutually employed. Isn't that the point?
> 
> Please do correct me if I'm misreading you, but you seem to think that relationships are comprised of one wild, volatile person, who gives it, and one calm, sensible person who can "take it". No?


I think that in a moment of conflict, that is how it can be. My advice is geared towards that.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

jld said:


> I think that in a moment of conflict, that is how it can be. My advice is geared towards that.


I agree. In a moment of conflict that is how it "can be". However it's not a forgone conclusion.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

The respect discussions usually end up this way. Which is kinda normal since it's all open to interpretation and opinions. 
Women telling, nagging, etc:
The "job " doesn't get done until one asks 9 times. Of course there is yelling.

I always think of an Ann Landers column my friend had on her fridge..
Her answer: if you don't like nagging, yelling, complaining, do the job before you are asked and you won't have an issue.
Whatever you call it...I'm assuming it's more manly to do it before she asks.
As for yelling...what's the rule? Twice? 5 times? Never ever "ask" is the answer men want to hear?
Who knows. 
I always go back to ..keep up your end of the bargain, do your job, and that's how respect is shown. Actions.
Communication about not getting a job done right away is emotional maturity. Life happens. We get selfish, we have opinions, and we judge. But just being honest and saying you aren't going to do it is also respect for yourself. Making your actions and your words line up. Which IS the definition of respect. When those two things are the same. IMO


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

crocus said:


> I always think of an Ann Landers column my friend had on her fridge..
> Her answer: if you don't like nagging, yelling, complaining, do the job before you are asked and you won't have an issue.


Absolutely not. I don't do nagging/yelling/complaining from a woman. Haven't ever, never will. A surprising amount of men seem to accept this as normal, I know a few myself, but I personally find this kind of behavior, if it's constant, to be disgusting, unattractive and highly disrespectful.

You don't get to command me to do a "job", and if not done in your time, you have the right to act like a petulant child, or a fretful mother. If it's a chronic issue than together we'll discuss it, maturely, like adults. And it won't yield results, not with me at least, so ultimately it wouldn't even be an effective way to get what you want.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

jld said:


> Some men actually are emotionally strong. They are sensitive to women's feelings without taking women's reactions personally.
> 
> These men may not be typical, but they absolutely do exist. And they are the only kind that I personally would find it worthwhile to be married to.


I think it would be good to qualify all of this by saying we are all making generalisations. Of course there will be differences depending on the individual.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

:scratchhead: 

Don't really understand this need for respect, it's not something that can be asked for, only earned. For me, it's not something that can be given out of choice. Someone asks or demands me to respect them I laugh in their face, probably why I never got far as an employee and only succeeded as an employer. Positions and power is meh, humans all bleed the same and cry at the same bones crushed. But if someone earns my respect however, a different story. Even if I hate their guts I will always respect them, to not respect them is to be ignorant and delusional.

As for disrespect, demanding that respect is a pathetic way to gain it if you ask me. Action and consequence, if they choose to disrespect you, then let them suffer the consequences of their actions. Why demand it? It's not your choice to make, its not even theirs, it's yours to earn. As for the case of "respect" using the case study of holding the door open (which I consider more accurately defined as; courtesy), I approach a doorway holding the hand of my daughter and someone doesn't keep it open? Big deal, I don't expect courtesy or decency, I have my hand ready to hold it open myself. No drama, sure courtesy is nice when it happens, but why do people expect it? 

Meh


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> Don't really understand this need for respect, it's not something that can be asked for, only earned. For me, it's not something that can be given out of choice. Someone asks or demands me to respect them I laugh in their face, probably why I never got far as an employee and only succeeded as an employer. Positions and power is meh, humans all bleed the same and cry at the same bones crushed. But if someone earns my respect however, a different story. Even if I hate their guts I will always respect them, to not respect them is to be ignorant and delusional.
> 
> ...


Golden.


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