# Athol Kays book - my take



## bob1471 (Dec 27, 2013)

Married mans sex life primer.

Starts off good I think. Some interesting ideas like the "score" idea.

I dunno though, starts to descent into a bit of a gloatfest if you ask me. The guy seems keen to make sure everyone knows how good his sex life is. After all, do we really know his views on how to do spanking? Some of us are happy if we get lie flat stick it in and wriggle around a bit.... lol.

I mean fair play to the guy. He seems to have cracked it with his mrs who lets him. BUT when I read towards the end that he was a virgin until he got married at 20 and has with his wife ever since it did put me off a bit.

I mean, like I said, good on you and all, but lets see you in 10-15 years fella. And ok you're doing better than me now but by the time you'd cracked the egg so to speak, a lot of us had (and not boasing now) possibly double figure sexual partners....

And I notice hes got no qualifications as such. Just one guy and his idea.

Like I said, good to start but I dunno...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I've read a lot of your threads. You're one of those guys who just kind of lets life happen to him. It's no surprise you're sexless. I also get the impression from your threads that you're not interested in doing anything substantive. You're not going to rock the boat in any way. Anyway, good luck to you. You'll probably get used to it after a while.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

His books are less about his own sex life and more about how to stoke the desire in your own partner. If you think the book is more of a biography about his own sex life, then I'm afraid you're missing the point.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Maybe just maybe his books are about making him money!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Sex rank ,red pill,blue pill, if being in a successfully marriage requires all the $hit in his books then no thanks . playing head games and power struggle games always being on your toes seem like a very unpleasant relationship.

I think picking the right woman is a better way to go.
If you want some pretty princes who has been fed a line of false reality since Disneys movies came out and think opera,Dr Phil,comso,Facebook, are good source of how to be a person then his info would be useful.

To much work for me. I just like good old fashion honesty. And mutual attraction.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I didn't read the book, but the title of it "MARRIED MAN'S Sex Life Primer" should be probably inform the reader that the book is aimed at MARRIED MEN. His biographical background is probably in the book to alert the reader as to where he is coming from. And his discussion of his sex life, is really all he would have to go on, as like you said he has no other qualifications. Rather than looking for something geared towards a married man who by definition is probably committed to just one woman for the time being, why no read something from men more experienced with a variety of women? You don't sound like you are ready to settle down with one woman yet, so why would want to know how to keep your sex life interesting with just one woman. Believe it or not, many people choose to get married based on other compatibilities besides just sex. Sex is major, but many make accomodations and compromises sexually in order to gain all the other stuff a marriage brings with it.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MMSLP is one of my top recommendations for guys who come here because their wives are walking all over them. His personal story is somewhat interesting but that's not why I recommend it; I recommend it because it has quite a few good tips on how to improve marriages where too much beta is the problem.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

I have not read the book, but have seen it referenced here enough to get the gist of it. I think that to someone who is stuck in a sexless situation and looking for ideas, it's an idea worth exploring when the alternative is more of the same. 

I used to spend a lot of time pvssy footing around in bed, overthinking whether or not she might or might not be interested in sex on any given night. Gingerly approaching her. Tentatively testing the water. It wasn't working. When I started being more aggressive, but very specifically being assertive in a way that showed her that I wanted *her*, the whole package, both her body and to connect with her (as opposed to getting my wick wet), she responded to that. Due to our schedules (mostly me doing homework at all hours of the night) we are only have sex when we can sleep in on Sunday morning, but that's far better than when we were down to once a month or so.

I think that we have to treat the whole marriage the same way that a doctor treats the whole body. I still help out around the house, even though she is a full time home-maker. As a person who can leave his job at the end of the day I empathize with her working where she lives and not having that clean demarcation, so I will continue to help out. Athol probably sees that as "beta" (a term I hate, by the way), so take what makes sense and leave the rest. I might read the book. Sometimes there are pearls in the mud.

Just my experience.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

The book as some good points. The discussion of the sex market value was great. Beta guys need to up their sex appeal through appearance, working out, building confidence etc. Some of the other parts of how he treats his wife are farcical - instigate, escalate etc. 

Great for him. He states he had sex with his wife 5000 times. Not something a guy in a sexless marriage wants to read. Was all the sex due to his process or just that he married a woman that has sex every day or more than once a day?

I read his The Mindful Attraction Plan and found that to be a much better write, more useful to both men and woman. And less sexist. MAP is helpful to beta guys too.

BTW, how can someone comment on a book if you have not read it?


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> BTW, how can someone comment on a book if you have not read it?


Not commenting on the book, just the part that I've seen kicked around on the board about how to approach [the wife] in bed. I might read it if I have time between semesters.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

pplwatching said:


> Not commenting on the book, just the part that I've seen kicked around on the board about how to approach [the wife] in bed. I might read it if I have time between semesters.


The main takeaway from the book is that it got me thinking. The book itself is ok, not the save all book that we seem to imply it is - and I have recommended it too. It is a STARTING POINT, nothing more. 

It did make him rich enough to quit as a nurse and work full time from home. Now he has plenty more time to F*** his wife. That is one way to increase the amount of sex - get rich.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have read the book and with what little I know about psychology  I think he's got the right ideas that will work - for a smaller percentage of cases. 

The proof in pudding aspect of it is that it, like the 180, tends to not work very well in the more difficult cases. For example, the mind games will likely work in a doe eyed young mom that has deprioritized intimacy, but not quite as well in a late 40's been there done that professional whose status or ego and work has sent intimacy to the minor league. 

It's worth a read but it (like MMSLP) contains too many self fulfilling prophecies in my view.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> Amen. From a woman's point of view (at least from this woman's) this stuff is just plain farcical.


Most women say that.

However, most women would also say that they would never cheat.

So the rule is "pay attention to what they do, not what they say". Of course this applies to men as well.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Does the book really think that the prescribed method will work on a six figure earning 50's good looking professional woman who gets her kicks by a corner office, euro SUV, commanding respect at work and the like, and has likely forgotten (and has no interest in re-learning) what her emotional side is up to?

I'm not talking specifically about Mrs Voldemort here, but I know a number of high strung women that I seriously doubt they remember how to plug in their Magic Wand, let alone interact at an emotionally equal basis... Two couples from my birth country, one a university vice president and one a senior manager at work. No skeletons in closet variety, both very attractive, both married to more beta than alpha types... And both husbands complain about lack of intimacy...


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## bob1471 (Dec 27, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I've read a lot of your threads. You're one of those guys who just kind of lets life happen to him. It's no surprise you're sexless. I also get the impression from your threads that you're not interested in doing anything substantive. You're not going to rock the boat in any way. Anyway, good luck to you. You'll probably get used to it after a while.


Im sorry did I ask for comments on my life? I have no idea why you made these comments in relation to my opinion on a BOOK.
Theres me thinking I was talking about the book not myself. Maybe I'm mistaken.....

I have no idea why you are taking my comments so personally. Its a little strange to say the least.
Also, I have no idea why you feel the need to be an ass about it either but each to his own. If you enjoy it who am I to criticise?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> Most women *don't* cheat, so I hope you'll take your own advice..
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidelity


I don't think anyone knows how many people cheat. It's not something that is easy to get good data on.

But I suspect if you asked people whether they would cheat, very few would admit that they would, far fewer than actually do.

Thus, my advice remains the same: watch what people do, not what they say.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

john117 said:


> Does the book really think that the prescribed method will work on a six figure earning 50's good looking professional woman who gets her kicks by a corner office, euro SUV, commanding respect at work and the like, and has likely forgotten (and has no interest in re-learning) what her emotional side is up to?
> 
> I'm not talking specifically about Mrs Voldemort here, but I know a number of high strung women that I seriously doubt they remember how to plug in their Magic Wand, let alone interact at an emotionally equal basis... Two couples from my birth country, one a university vice president and one a senior manager at work. No skeletons in closet variety, both very attractive, *both married to more beta than alpha types... And both husbands complain about lack of intimacy...*


Yes, even professional women are still women and respond positively to proper displays of dominance from men. It is likely to be a lot harder to have enough alpha for them, but having too little alpha for them will definitely produce bad results, exactly as you have described *here*.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

tech-novelist said:


> Yes, even professional women are still women and respond positively to proper displays of dominance from men. It is likely to be a lot harder to have enough alpha for them, but having too little alpha for them will definitely produce bad results, exactly as you have described *here*.


Dominance... Lolz. These guys are doormats. 

How do you dominate someone making four times your salary... The University admin is a classy lady, just too busy. The manager lady makes my wife sane by comparison.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

john117 said:


> Dominance... Lolz. These guys are doormats.


And they aren't getting laid, which is the main point of MMSLP.



john117 said:


> How do you dominate someone making four times your salary... The University admin is a classy lady, just too busy. The manager lady makes my wife sane by comparison.


You've been here long enough to know the answer to that: You tell her to shape up or ship out. 

And if she makes 4x your salary, and she decides on divorce, you get alimony from her (depending on where you live, obviously), but in any event you won't owe her any alimony. In any event, if you're not getting any sex, why stay married?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

tech-novelist said:


> And they aren't getting laid, which is the main point of MMSLP.


No disagreement. But MMSLP does not generally work with such women... Which is my whole point.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I thought you were implying that most women say they wouldn't cheat but actually would cheat. Was I mistaken?
> 
> I do put more weight on what people do vs what they say, but I'm unable to monitor the majority of the female population for cheating. Are you?


What I meant was that the percentage of people who say that they won't cheat is much higher than the percentage of people who actually won't cheat. Similarly, the number of women who say that they don't respond favorably to dominance is much higher than the percentage of women who actually don't respond favorably to dominance.

Thus, in both cases, observation of what people do trumps what those same people say.

Is that clearer?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

john117 said:


> No disagreement. But MMSLP does not generally work with such women... Which is my whole point.


No, it does work... if you apply it. They aren't applying it, because if they did apply it they wouldn't be doormats. That's why they don't get very good results.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

What's your experience being married to such a person? Just curious...


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

john117 said:


> No disagreement. But MMSLP does not generally work with such women... Which is my whole point.


How so? It would have a better chance of succeeding than doing nothing. Okay, so you can't make as much money. But that just means the other aspects should have greater weight. First off, be in great shape so that your sex rank is at least equal to or greater than hers. This is the one that most men take for granted. Get rid of the gut and add muscle. Take charge on planning dates - even keep them secret (i.e. tell her you're going out on a date, but say you can't tell her where - it's a surprise). Show dominance in the bedroom - you be the one to initiate. These are just some of the things that would be required for a lady like this just to get in the game.

I find it interesting that a previous poster called the method "farcical." It seems to me that ignoring the science and psychology of sex is far more farcical.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Amen. From a woman's point of view (at least from this woman's) this stuff is just plain farcical.


Agreed! The sort of mind games he recommends are tantamount to emotional bullying. And while emotional bullying absolutely does serve to male people feel insecure, I'd hardly call it "relationship advice".

If you bully someone enough, they will either become compliant and resentful or they will fight you with everything they have. Unfortunately Athol only cares about how much sex he gets, so compliant is good enough for him. Gross.

What really kills me is that he pretends it's "science". But sadly, this "science" is a bunch of wishful thinking from hard-up adolescents having trouble getting laid. Basically a Flintstones fairy tale of what they wish evolution, history, and human nature looked like.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The high strung professional type women used to having their way in general can't be "convinced" by mind games, not nearly as much as more "pedestrian" women ...


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

john117 said:


> The high strung professional type women used to having their way in general can't be "convinced" by mind games, not nearly as much as more "pedestrian" women ...


What "mind games" are you referring to?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Capster said:


> What "mind games" are you referring to?


The whole destabilization, aloofness, sex rank, etc. They work great in a certain category of women, but your aren't going to see them apply universally.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

I haven't read the book but I have read the forums and the MAP and triage answers. I don't understand how much a spouse earns or the debt they have has to do with their wife wanting to have more sex with them. The attraction rating I understand because we want to be attractive to our spouse. I don't understand the MAP. If a women is LD then it doesn't matter if her husband is a millionaire and is a model, she isn't going to want more sex. 

While marrying a women who has a good sex drive helps that usually declines as the years go, especially once you have children. I still say that if you want more sex then treat her nicely, spend time with her, make her feel good about herself, help out around the house and with the children. If a wife isn't feeling so stressed, resentful and upset there is more likely she will want to have sex. If you come home from work, plays on the computer all night while she makes dinner, cleans, takes care of the kids etc, she isn't going to be in the mood for sex. She is going to be tired, stressed and resentful.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

john117 said:


> The whole destabilization, aloofness, sex rank, etc. They work great in a certain category of women, but your aren't going to see them apply universally.


Sex rank has to do with physical fitness and building muscle. It has to do with dressing attractively and being better groomed. Is this a mind game? If so, I am guilty. What is your height and weight and how often do you work out?

Aloofness? I have no idea what you mean here. I've read no strategy whereby it is recommended that in order to attract women, you should be aloof.

Destabilization? How so? If making changes is destabilizing, then how is that a mind game? It would be weird for someone to be unhappy but not want to do anything about it because it involves change (destabilizing).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Any kind of behavior that has ulterior motives not clear to all parties is "mind games". 

I'll ask again. If you have experience dealing with such high-strung women, you know what I'm talking about... Do you think a university administrator in charge of a prestigious flagship school and a budget to match will fall for "muscle" or clothes or "behavioral changes"??

I wish it worked for everyone...


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

john117 said:


> Any kind of behavior that has ulterior motives not clear to all parties is "mind games".
> 
> I'll ask again. If you have experience dealing with such high-strung women, you know what I'm talking about... Do you think a university administrator in charge of a prestigious flagship school and a budget to match will fall for "muscle" or clothes or "behavioral changes"??
> 
> I wish it worked for everyone...


Yes, I do. 

Seems like you're using the "it'll never work" excuse to fail to even try. She's not going to let some lazy, out of shape beta take her wherever he wants to go. But a man who takes care of himself and has his **** together would have a much better chance. I would think that a high strung career woman would like the opportunity to let someone else take the lead so that she doesn't have to be the alpha 24 hours. But that man has to be worthy of it in order for her to want to go along.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Way too many assumptions there... 

"You would think that a high strung career woman would like blah blah" is not my experience or that of my friends. 

When you spend half your time travelling or working late or having to put out this fire or that, something that impacts tens of thousands of students and staff, believe me, it's a bit different than being the harried mom of twins and her busy PTO and play date schedule.

Next time she finishes an 80 hour week and is completely wiped out make sure to try a seductive voice, the newfangled six-pack and Fabio hair, and carry her to the bedroom.

It may yet work but I have my doubts. And that's before I put my decade of psychology education to good use to think whether there's science behind it at all.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Happilymarried25 said:


> I haven't read the book but I have read the forums and the MAP and triage answers. I don't understand how much a spouse earns or the debt they have has to do with their wife wanting to have more sex with them. The attraction rating I understand because we want to be attractive to our spouse. I don't understand the MAP. *If a women is LD then it doesn't matter if her husband is a millionaire and is a model, she isn't going to want more sex.*
> 
> While marrying a women who has a good sex drive helps that usually declines as the years go, especially once you have children. I still say that if you want more sex then treat her nicely, spend time with her, make her feel good about herself, help out around the house and with the children. If a wife isn't feeling so stressed, resentful and upset there is more likely she will want to have sex. If you come home from work, plays on the computer all night while she makes dinner, cleans, takes care of the kids etc, she isn't going to be in the mood for sex. She is going to be tired, stressed and resentful.


I think LD, Low Desire is often confused with LD, Low Drive, and far more often than not, a person is Low Desire, and not Low Drive. They may look the same at any given time, but the difference is situational related to their specific partner. They aren't Low Drive, they are Low Desire for their current partner.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

chillymorn said:


> Sex rank ,red pill,blue pill, if being in a successfully marriage requires all the $hit in his books then no thanks . playing head games and power struggle games always being on your toes seem like a very unpleasant relationship.
> 
> *I think picking the right woman is a better way to go.*
> If you want some pretty princes who has been fed a line of false reality since Disneys movies came out and think opera,Dr Phil,comso,Facebook, are good source of how to be a person then his info would be useful.
> ...


I actually agree with this.. I am this sort of woman.. a "straight shooter" and the man would be wise to just talk to me...get it out on the table...

I don't care for head games...just give it to me straight.. and we'll haggle it out.. work it out for both our happiness...Heck I would even call that stuff out , if I suspected it...

BUT ...BUT ...But.. One thing I know from reading tons of posts here is that not all women are geared the same... they aren't straight shooters, some get turned off if their man shows any sign of being "too sensitive"/ a little insecurity, the whole ship goes down.... a man has to be "ALPHA" all the time with some of these women, or she may loose attraction .... 

Then some women don't speak their minds...then EXPECT the man to read their minds -while they are playing their own little games ... a shame there are so many game players really.. but that's life...I've even seen that defended on this forum.. that without some "games".. it would be boring...

So yeah.. I Think some of this stuff does work on some women ...hey.. his book has helped a number of husbands... so whatever... 

I also think it's beautiful he was a Virgin at age 20 & only been with his wife... I hope she feels that is something special..... I also much appreciate his explaining of BETA.. how this is also needed (for the woman to feel loved & cared for)... unlike Pick up artist idiots & their articles...who pound all ALPHA traits.. there really needs to be a balance of both.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Build muscle. Get laid. Right...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The author needs to add a section or ten about root causes other than "attraction" or "rank"... Attraction looks great when you're a raging hormoniac but not quite when your t-level values look like trigonometric function values... And rank is great when you're busy working your first job and are out with the office crowd (or similar) but not quite the same in a decades long relationship.

It's a good book if your case is one it's designed to handle.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

It helped me.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Like most other things in life there is good, not so good, and bad in it. They are just ideas -options presented. 

IMO...if reading AK's book convinces a man to better himself, get in shape, dress better, improve his lot in life...then good for him. 

If it moves him to attempt to manipulate, dominate or otherwise manipulate his wife to some ends...well, he's probably gonna reap what he sows.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

MarriedDude said:


> Like most other things in life there is good, not so good, and bad in it. They are just ideas -options presented.
> 
> IMO...if reading AK's book convinces a man to better himself, get in shape, dress better, improve his lot in life...then good for him.
> 
> If it moves him to attempt to manipulate, dominate or otherwise manipulate his wife to some ends...well, he's probably gonna reap what he sows.


What specific "dominate or otherwise manipulate" things are you referring to?


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

The book is not for everyone. But for $10 it transformed my life. 

The MAP part is especially for guys looking to either ramp up his sex life or make himself ready for the next woman in his life. You "MAP" to make yourself better for.....YOU. Not your wife. 


It does depend on if your wife is submissive or dominant. And if she's willing to be the first officer. Not the captain. If she's always trying to be the dominant one and always trying to captain the marriage then you've got an uphill battle. 

If she's the submissive one and let's you captain the marriage then it's much easier. But the guy has to do the hard work. 

But let's face it. If your a guy whose 40 lbs overweight and dressed like a bum. Does not take care of himself when it comes to showering and brushing teeth then of course a wife would be put out when it comes to sex. 


Like all marriages, in the beggining it's fun, lots of sex and you explore each other. As time goes on the "honeymoon" period fades with kids and responsibilities. When you met your wife in your 20's there were no kids to c0ck block you. You were adventurous. Did things on a whim. 

Like a few posters stated, women are different. But most like and are sexually attracted to a clean, fit, well dressed man who is confident/alpha in life and beta when needed. 

A woman for the most part are not attracted to a beta bum with no ambition in life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Capster said:


> What specific "dominate or otherwise manipulate" things are you referring to?


Do you really not understand how someone would twist good information and/or advice to their own ends in order to do those things? 

Or are you just being antagonistic?


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

MarriedDude said:


> Do you really not understand how someone would twist good information and/or advice to their own ends in order to do those things?
> 
> Or are you just being antagonistic?


Okay, so it's good information. It's just that you are concerned with people misusing the information. Cool. Never mind.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Capster said:


> Okay, so it's good information. It's just that you are concerned with people misusing the information. Cool. Never mind.


At its core, IMO, AK's message is one of self-directed -self improvement in order to create the best possible outcome for families. 

So yeah. I think its a good thing. A good thing misunderstood and incorrectly implemented by many.

His later books- Post MMSLP- refine the message


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

john117 said:


> The author needs to add a section or ten about root causes other than "attraction" or "rank"... Attraction looks great when you're a raging hormoniac but not quite when your t-level values look like trigonometric function values...


My t-level values look like trigonometric function values... of the tangent function. >


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

MarriedDude said:


> At its core, IMO, AK's message is one of self-directed -self improvement in order to create the best possible outcome for families.
> 
> So yeah. I think its a good thing. A good thing misunderstood and incorrectly implemented by many.
> 
> His later books- Post MMSLP- refine the message


Frankly, I see more guys who don't implement enough of it - starting with getting in shape. Some comments earlier in this thread even made fun of that aspect.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

john117 said:


> Does the book really think that the prescribed method will work on a six figure earning 50's good looking professional woman who gets her kicks by a corner office, euro SUV, commanding respect at work and the like, and has likely forgotten (and has no interest in re-learning) what her emotional side is up to?
> 
> I'm not talking specifically about Mrs Voldemort here, but I know a number of high strung women that I seriously doubt they remember how to plug in their Magic Wand, let alone interact at an emotionally equal basis... Two couples from my birth country, one a university vice president and one a senior manager at work. No skeletons in closet variety, both very attractive, both married to more beta than alpha types... And both husbands complain about lack of intimacy...


Yes, after you run your MAP and still not getting any, find someone who will. Some women (and men) just don't want or need sex often and sometimes you don't find that out until years later.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Capster said:


> Frankly, I see more guys who don't implement enough of it - starting with getting in shape. Some comments earlier in this thread even made fun of that aspect.


Agreed. If a man can't control himself and maintain his body...then he is failing at his first and primary mission.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

john117 said:


> No disagreement. But MMSLP does not generally work with such women... Which is my whole point.


actually it does, it tells you to dump her if you are not sexually satisfied.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Dump her if u are not sexually satisfied huh? And then what happens the next time u are not satisfied?


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Okguy said:


> Dump her if u are not sexually satisfied huh? And then what happens the next time u are not satisfied?


I think what he means- If you get to the point where you have done everything you can to improve the situation both internally and externally -and your needs are not being met . A person (male or female) will the have confidence to move on. 

Life is short- all we have is a brief time to live, learn, love and hopefully create something that survives us. To take this infinitely valuable and irreplaceable commodity and waste it beating your head against a wall.....well.....why?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Capster said:


> Frankly, I see more guys who don't implement enough of it - starting with getting in shape. Some comments earlier in this thread even made fun of that aspect.


Yea, go to a health club and see if your abs get more looks than your BMW key fob...

By the time many men "need" the book in their late 40's or 50's their wives may have let go long before they did... Good luck there.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Okguy said:


> Dump her if u are not sexually satisfied huh? And then what happens the next time u are not satisfied?


That's in the next book


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

john117 said:


> Yea, go to a health club and see if your abs get more looks than your BMW key fob...
> 
> By the time many men "need" the book in their late 40's or 50's their wives may have let go long before they did... Good luck there.


That's a personal decision then. I couldn't stay married to smeone who let themself go, but that's just me. But of course, I'm a health nut.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

john117 said:


> Yea, go to a health club and see if your abs get more looks than your BMW key fob...
> 
> By the time many men "need" the book in their late 40's or 50's their wives may have let go long before they did... Good luck there.


Two things.
In regards the key fob - who give a crap? Let those women be more concerned with the key fob than the abs. At least they are showing who they are. A confident man will probably not be interested in such gold diggers. A weak one, would be all over it.
Wives left long ago? Again who cares? So what is wrong with a man taking an interest in him self for a change? I guess you could let your self go to seed, gain 30 pounds, have a beer belly and sit around and wonder why your knees ache and no women are interested in you. Unless of course you are the loser who allows yourself to be used by the gold diggers interested in your BMW


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Yes but sexual needs are only part of the needs that should be met. Important as they are they are not the most important as too many variables affect them.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Okguy said:


> Yes but sexual needs are only part of the needs that should be met. Important as they are they are not the most important as too many variables affect them.


Ok then....What is the MOST important need?

Becasue...you could have the perfect combination of aunt bea, betty crocker and martha stewart for a wife....But you if you aren't getting any....that is gonna cause problems EVERYWHERE else.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Interesting how everyone in TAM is a fitness fan . I am not exactly Mr. Universe material but not many of my contemporaries can work all nighters, party all nighters, drive all nighters, or cycle 35 miles. 

And the BMW key fob? Belongs to my wife. I'm content with my Mini. 

Bottom line, if your wife is setting the bar for fitness at "Mr. Universe" she better be at that level herself, plus or minus... And at age 57, not all of us are Harrison Ford material. 

Therefore no sex. Eugenics in action .


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

john117 said:


> Interesting how everyone in TAM is a fitness fan . I am not exactly Mr. Universe material but not many of my contemporaries can work all nighters, party all nighters, drive all nighters, or cycle 35 miles.
> 
> And the BMW key fob? Belongs to my wife. I'm content with my *Mini. *
> 
> ...


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

As long as I'm getting some of high quality and my other needs are being met I'm good. More sex would always be a bonus.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Okguy said:


> *As long as I'm getting some of high quality* and my other needs are being met I'm good. More sex would always be a bonus.


Notice you put getting some...first. 

could be...maybe...because its "Most" important??

There can only be one most


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You can be healthy as can be but not happy. Another boo boo in the book. It attributes way too much to physical appearance and not enough to emotional and mental health.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

john117 said:


> You can be healthy as can be but not happy. Another boo boo in the book. It attributes way too much to physical appearance and not enough to emotional and mental health.


Very true. I would venture that emotional health really can trump most other aspects. If you don't have that -given that we are all a work in progress- relationships of any kind are VERY difficult


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

MarriedDude said:


> I think what he means- If you get to the point where you have done everything you can to improve the situation both internally and externally -and your needs are not being met . A person (male or female) will the have confidence to move on.
> 
> Life is short- all we have is a brief time to live, learn, love and hopefully create something that survives us. To take this infinitely valuable and irreplaceable commodity and waste it beating your head against a wall.....well.....why?


exactly. The book is adamant about improving you, the man, to be the best man you can be. If that is not enough to get reasonably frequent and reasonably good sex with your W, it is time to cut out or decide that 'sexless' is what you will settle for.

IMO - if you are not happy sexually, but don't work to improve yourself to improve how your W views you from an attraction perspective, you are in the wrong. If you do what you can do and still don't get any, I am strongly of the opinion that my marriage vows mean if I am a good partner, I should expect sex (the whole have and to hold thing is meaning a fulfilled sex life), then you are truly free of your vows to move on.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

I put getting some first because you referred to not getting any in your comment. Overall I think getting some is important but not the most important.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Okguy said:


> As long as I'm getting some of high quality and my other needs are being met I'm good. More sex would always be a bonus.


You are contradicting yourself - if you are getting high quality, you are probably sexually satisfied. The book wasn't written for you. It was written for the guys who get 2x/month or less and so/so at best.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

I am at once a month but high quality.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

john117 said:


> You can be healthy as can be but not happy. Another boo boo in the book. It attributes way too much to physical appearance and not enough to emotional and mental health.


The problem is that it is hard to improve you emotional or mental health, relative to improving appearance. I think there is a base assumption that most people reading a book called MMSLP probably are nominally emotionally and mentally healthy, else they wouldn't be reading a book.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

The good things I learned from MMSLP and the "red pill" man-o-sphere:

1. Surprise! A wedding ring doesn't make your wife horny. You actually have to look good and be attractive. Duh.
2. "Wanna do it?" While sitting on the couch eating Doritos and watching Doctor Who reruns isn't how you initiate sex. Duh.
3. Pay attention to what your wife does instead of fixating on what she says. Pay attention to her cycle. Pay attention to what has her attention. Pay attention to what works and what doesn't. 
4. You can get away with (nearly) murder if you look good and smell good and adopt a confident attitude and a **** eating grin.
5. Passive aggressiveness is universally bad.
6. To really think about what I wanted from my sex life.

The bad things I learned:
1. I went through a period of time when I was really angry with my wife and women in general because I felt like I was being lied to. The whole "nice guy" stuff women said they wanted wasn't what they wanted at all. But then I realized that the lie itself was a lie. Because women don't want either the nice guy or the ********* on a motorbike. They want the real you to show up and be present. And not be a weenie about it.
2. There's a whole army of *********s making money off guys that can't get laid, and they are raising an army of *********s that think women are stupid, lack control of their decisions, and we should all go back to the 1950s.
3. AK is one of those *********s.
4. While there are underpinnings and commonalities to attraction as the man-o-sphere will tell you, there is a far greater variation in what turns women on than they will ever admit. Some chicks like nerds. Some chicks like body builders. Some chicks like dad bods. And all of that can change on a dime. Women aren't universally one thing -- they're freaking human beings and deserve to be treated as such.
5. Much of the man-o-sphere is over the top mysogenistic. And treats feminism as a giant conspiracy set out to rule the world. When the reality is, women could rule the world anytime they wanted to, because they're women. It hasn't happened because it's not what they want. There is no conspiracy. What there is, is a bunch of human beings trying to be happy and figure life out.
6. AK is so two-faced that he now has tuned is books and 'coaching' for women -- because it's a far more lucrative market. What happened to the dudes he was trying to help? Well, F them.

There's more, but that's enough. There's far better stuff out there that's better than MMSLP.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I think one of the pitfalls of the whole self improvement scheme is that you "deserve" to get laid if you can execute x, y, z plan.

it is not necessarily meant to be received this way, but it is easy to set up sex as some sort of finish line at the end of an obstacle course.

approaching things in this way does not really address the fundamental issue.

that is not to say that you should not try to get in shape, be more confident, etc. But you should pursue lifestyle changes as ends in themselves, not as stepping stones to win the affection of someone else.

if you're just doing things to win the approval of someone else, then you're not living your own life.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I think one of the pitfalls of the whole self improvement scheme is that you "deserve" to get laid if you can execute x, y, z plan.
> 
> it is not necessarily meant to be received this way, but it is easy to set up sex as some sort of finish line at the end of an obstacle course.
> 
> ...


Totally. Covert Contracts are pretty much ridiculous. Turning sex into a reward for specific behaviors just sets a bad precedent anyway. 

Sex is something you (we) do as a matter of course because its fun and feels good. My wife knows me well -she knows it makes me feel very connected...and connected she keeps me. Very connected. 

Its gotta be fun...or whats the damn point?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

OliviaG said:


> @marduk, I'm giving you a standing ovation.


For what?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I think one of the pitfalls of the whole self improvement scheme is that you "deserve" to get laid if you can execute x, y, z plan.
> 
> it is not necessarily meant to be received this way, but it is easy to set up sex as some sort of finish line at the end of an obstacle course.
> 
> ...


I disagree somewhat, some/most of self improvement goal is not just the self improvement, it is what you get for improving. Virtually no one would go to college today, if they didn't think they would make more money on the other end. 

I also think that expecting to have sex in a marriage is a reasonable expectation (probably to the point of saying it is deserved or nearly deserved), similarly, my wife expects me to pay attention to her (totally along the lines of his needs/her needs). To accept a sexless or nearly sexless marriage to me is not even remotely acceptable. I needed to 'clean up my side of the street' and in my case, that worked just like MMSLP predicted. However, had it not worked, I don't think I could have settled for the infrequent sex we were having a few short years ago.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

marduk said:


> The bad things I learned:
> 1. I went through a period of time when I was really angry with my wife and women in general because I felt like I was being lied to. The whole "nice guy" stuff women said they wanted wasn't what they wanted at all. But then I realized that the lie itself was a lie. Because women don't want either the nice guy or the ********* on a motorbike. They want the real you to show up and be present. And not be a weenie about it.


I totally like your post @marduk, but I wanted to comment on what I quoted. I went through the same angry phase. It actually has given me motivation to try to prevent this happening to my sons. Boys are taught so wrong in todays society. They are taught to be beta wimps, not taught to be themselves. This needs to be addressed, but probably one boy at a time.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

naiveonedave said:


> I totally like your post @marduk, but I wanted to comment on what I quoted. I went through the same angry phase. It actually has given me motivation to try to prevent this happening to my sons. Boys are taught so wrong in todays society. They are taught to be beta wimps, not taught to be themselves. This needs to be addressed, but probably one boy at a time.


Teach them not to be passive-aggressive. But there's no such thing as alpha or beta -- even for Wolves. Certainly not humans.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> I disagree somewhat, some/most of self improvement goal is not just the self improvement, it is what you get for improving. Virtually no one would go to college today, if they didn't think they would make more money on the other end.
> 
> I also think that expecting to have sex in a marriage is a reasonable expectation (probably to the point of saying it is deserved or nearly deserved), similarly, my wife expects me to pay attention to her (totally along the lines of his needs/her needs). To accept a sexless or nearly sexless marriage to me is not even remotely acceptable. I needed to 'clean up my side of the street' and in my case, that worked just like MMSLP predicted. However, had it not worked, I don't think I could have settled for the infrequent sex we were having a few short years ago.


I'm not saying anyone should settle, just saying the whole "man up" thing can easily be applied as a giant covert contract, which pretty much defeats the whole purpose.

I do think it's reasonable to expect sex in a marriage, but I don't think it is reasonable to say, I did these things so now you owe me more sex. Not saying that YOU are saying that, but I do think that is an inference many do make from the whole "man up" approach.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> I'm not saying anyone should settle, just saying the whole "man up" thing can easily be applied as a giant covert contract, which pretty much defeats the whole purpose.
> 
> I do think it's reasonable to expect sex in a marriage, but I don't think it is reasonable to say, I did these things so now you owe me more sex. Not saying that YOU are saying that, but I do think that is an inference many do make from the whole "man up" approach.


I think it would be far simpler and more honest to say "if your wife isn't having a lot of sex with you, or great sex with you, why don't you try doing those things you did when dating her when you were having good sex. And if you never did have great sex, good luck trying to now."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

naiveonedave said:


> The problem is that it is hard to improve you emotional or mental health, relative to improving appearance. I think there is a base assumption that most people reading a book called MMSLP probably are nominally emotionally and mentally healthy, else they wouldn't be reading a book.


Try losing 30 lb and spending a few grand on health clubs and clothes in a year vs IC. I think both have their challenges...


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Okguy said:


> I put getting some first because you referred to not getting any in your comment. Overall I think getting some is important but not the most important.


It is not the most important *to you*.

Others may have different opinions... especially men, who tend to have:
1. A higher sex drive than women; and (not unrelated)
2. A lot more trouble "getting some".

Of course there are exceptions to both 1 & 2, but those are still generally true.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

the whole concept of marriage is full of baloney.

there is no need in todays society for marriage. when either partner can get up and leave without losing half or more of everything they ever worked for the both work harder at keeping the relationship alive and healthy.

to death do us part in sickness and health for richer or poorer.to respect and honor.

sounds nice but it a line of crap.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

marduk said:


> The good things I learned from MMSLP and the "red pill" man-o-sphere:
> 
> 1. Surprise! A wedding ring doesn't make your wife horny. You actually have to look good and be attractive. Duh.
> 2. "Wanna do it?" While sitting on the couch eating Doritos and watching Doctor Who reruns isn't how you initiate sex. Duh.
> ...


Bravo, Sir!

There is a legacy is sexism that says if the man gets the formula right, then the woman will fall into his arms. The power and agency is with the man and the woman is the passive object to be cultivated. This is popular with men who have a decent woman and put her decency down to their brilliance and also with women who do not wish to take responsibility for the relationship. Therefore, if that man follows the plan, he will have success. 

But women do vary and there are women who would get sick of Athol Kay's schtick. The general guidelines are good, pay attention or actions and reactions rather than words, or perhaps pay attention to why a woman says something rather than just what she says. He does, in fairness, also acknowledge that there are some women who are just not marriage material, but this is as close as it gets.

There are general principles, know what you want, understand what they want, hold on if it matches and let go if it does not. And these are things that it took me a while to learn.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Marriage advice reminds me of IT advice from twenty years ago.
There were a couple of bits of standard advice and if that did not work, you were just told you must be typing the wrong thing in. Even if you clearly were not. There are a couple of posters on here that clearly just need to grow up. There are some, who are making specific mistakes and some that are making obvious mistakes. There are others that just need to leave.
Each book is only relevant for one of those groups. 

The nice guy phenomenon is an abused term. It is applied to emotionally self-indulgent men and the assumption is men are either emotionally self-indulgent or just get on with being *******s. What is true is that a man who feels terrible about himself and tries to always be the goodie to justify himself will have trouble in relationships. A man who is obsessed with his own feelings getting hurt is not that attractive (but I see many of them in long marriages). 

Actually, having normal human decency is rarely a bad thing though, the only women who are put off my it and women who have no concept of it themselves and can only interpret it as weakness. But ask yourself, what sort of woman would think that calling in on your sick neighbour is something you would only do if you are weak? A rather horrible woman who is best avoided. I do voluntary work, it has never been a problem, indeed it gives me licence to make more dark jokes.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

@Mr The Other identifies the other flaw in this type of scheme which is to type cast what an attractive man is.

It is nice for a guy who is flailing to have a checklist of "do these things to be attractive," but the real answer is more subtle.

Again, the take away for many seems to be, I should just be a jerk and look out for myself.

Admittedly, there are attractive men who do have this type of personality, but if that is not you, it is a mistake to strive to become that guy.

There is far more to life than the affection of any one particular woman.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> @Mr The Other
> There is far more to life than the affection of any one particular woman.


It's not about the affection (at least for me it wasn't). It was about the sex!


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Do what makes you happy for you. Not because u think that will get u laid more often.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Okguy said:


> Do what makes you happy for you. Not because u think that will get u laid more often.


That's easy to say.

The problem is when getting laid by your wife is what will make you happy.

Part of the solution of course is either letting go of the "laid" part or "by your wife" part, or both.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> Bravo, Sir!
> 
> There is a legacy is sexism that says if the man gets the formula right, then the woman will fall into his arms. The power and agency is with the man and the woman is the passive object to be cultivated. This is popular with men who have a decent woman and put her decency down to their brilliance and also with women who do not wish to take responsibility for the relationship. Therefore, if that man follows the plan, he will have success.
> 
> ...


AK once told me himself (I'm paraphrasing from memory) "Women are not vending machines that you put kindness coins into and get sex out of."

Which I thought was profound at the time.

Until it occurred to me that neither are they vending machines that you put badass-ness into and get sex out of, either.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

A lot comes back to listening. It is actually difficult and women assume they are good at it, but are not particularly. 

There is the words that are said, the feeling in those words and the motivation. If someone says they do not like the way a woman does something, there is the face value. Then there is the feeling they have when they say those words, it could be anger, fear or satisfaction. Then there is the question about why that feeling motivates them to say what they did. "I do not like the way she takes it for granted", could be driven from concern for her, disapproval and bewilderment at the mindset or resentment that the speaker is missing out. Most men or women will only have the inclination and capacity to take in the words, rather than look deeper. This is where looking at the actions is useful, it helps to understand the feelings and motivations, which is the basis of a strong emotional bond.

Men have an advantage, as women have a reputation for not being clear so men should be ready for this. Women also have the disadvantage that they are meant to be naturally good at it, so should not have to try. This does not mean that men do better.


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## Okguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Well of course getting laid is something we all like. My point was focus on all the other things that make us a better person without the sole goal of getting laid from it


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

marduk said:


> That's easy to say.
> 
> The problem is when getting laid by your wife is what will make you happy.
> 
> Part of the solution of course is either letting go of the "laid" part or "by your wife" part, or both.


yeah, the message would be a lot more effective if there was more about releasing this as the focal point.

it's easy to get more and more wound up about this. naturally, when you embark on a program to solve this one thing, the tendency will be to get even more wound up about it.

I think you've really got to become indifferent to whether it happens for there to be any chance of it actually happening.

if your underlying scent is one of desperation, it's going to come through.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> yeah, the message would be a lot more effective if there was more about releasing this as the focal point.
> 
> it's easy to get more and more wound up about this. naturally, when you embark on a program to solve this one thing, the tendency will be to get even more wound up about it.
> 
> ...


The fix to a restrictive monopoly on a scarce resource is to either stop consuming it, or find a new source. 

It's rarely cutting a slightly better deal with the source of the monopoly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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