# Codependant husband



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

My husband has a very intensely codependant relationship with his mother and older brother.

My husband does not take responsibility for his own actions and cannot fathom that he'd have to make decisions without the approval and input of his mom/brother. 

It is so far-gone that he is willing to get a divorce, rather than leave them (we used to live with them for 3 years and I left him because he'd try to kick me out, instead of getting an apartment with me). He won't even do it for our 2 year old daughter. 

I guess I have 2 questions:
1. Is it possible to end this codependant relationship? His family enables him.
2. I still love him. Even though I left him, I still haven't filed for divorce, because of hope that he might change. He hasn't changed so far, he's very stubborn.

The most progress we have made is: after almost 9 months of separation, he's said that we should get an apartment in the same building his brother decides to live in, and his mom would have to live with us too.

I do not want to live with that witch. She tried to ruin me.
I do not want to live with his mentally handicapped brother either (...you'd have to have a mental handicap to be in denial that your lifestyle is causing the destruction of your family). No offense to anyone who has a real mental disability - I'm sorry - I'm very upset and clearly something is very wrong with this family.

I'm also starting to suspect my husband has bipolar disorder because it would explain his rages...the rest of the time he was quite caring.

I have moved in to a condo on my own and live with my 2 year old daughter. I am peaceful there. I don't know if I should even CONSIDER letting him back in to my life...but I've told him that I love him and want to make it work, and asked him a few times to move in with me. He's refused. He said "we both want different things in life". Yes - I want to have a normal life with my husband in my own home, he wants to live as a pack with his biological family forever.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with the same hammer over and over, expecting a different result.

Am I?


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with the same hammer over and over, expecting a different result.
> 
> *Am I?*


Yes 

Orange, you have done SO well by moving away from that family full of codependent cling-ons. You have created a new home for you and your daughter; I think it would be a huge mistake to consider moving permanently ANYWHERE with him right now. And certainly not to the apartment where the brother is moving.

And any deal that involves the toxic mother living with you and hubs has got to be completely OFF the table.

I realize you still love him, and I'm sure it hurts. But you simply cannot go back to that unhealthy living situation. It's a lose-lose for you and your daughter.

Perhaps the two of you could "date" again (even though you're still married) and he could visit you at the condo -- without Mom in tow?

One thing though... the fact that he refuses to live with you and told you that you "both want different things" just doesn't bode well for a lasting relationship.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Again, so sorry to hear about your situation as it reminds me so much about my marriage in the early years. My wife was very co-dependant on her mother, it drove me up a wall. 

If you you decide to take him back, I think you really need to set up boundaries with him. Under no circumstances can you live in the same apartment complex and his mom definitely can't live with you. I think it would also be important to set limits on the amount of time he spends with them. His first priority MUST be you and your daughter. If he can't agree with that, I don't think you can take him back. The co-dependance will only get worse without limits and boundaries. For me, the only way it stopped was when my MIL passed away.


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## Lloyd Dobler (Apr 24, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I have moved in to a condo on my own and live with my 2 year old daughter. I am peaceful there. I don't know if I should even CONSIDER letting him back in to my life...but I've told him that I love him and want to make it work, and asked him a few times to move in with me. He's refused. *He said "we both want different things in life".* Yes - I want to have a normal life with my husband in my own home, he wants to live as a pack with his biological family forever.


In my opinion, it is possible to change a co-dependent relationship, but only if your husband wants to. He's showing you not just in words, but also in actions that he does not want to change. 

You've set your boundaries and he's not willing to go by your boundaries, so I think you're better off without him. I understand that you're still in love with him, but I think you made the right choice by moving into your own condo. Believe him when he says he wants different things than you - that's the bottom line.


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

Orange Pekoe,

So sorry you're still in this situation with your H.

Have you told him you are ready to divorce him if he doesn't cut his codependance ways with his family?, is he aware that he's about to lose his inmidiate family because of his ways?

You are still waiting for the other shoe to drop, i believe you have to take drastic measures and divorce him. Maybe, mabye that'll scare him enough so he would realice how much he's really losing and DO something about it.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

It is an impasse. He is probably waiting for you to fold,and your doing the same. But this is one boundary you should never give up on, because your daughter could turn out like her father, her grandmother, and that is a possibility on why this is one area you should never give ground on.

You can choose to start falling out of love with him, and treat your love for him as an addiction. Little contact, associate more of his negative quality when you think of him, make new friends and live a life without him. When you create a life of your own, you simply outgrow your love for him, you change as a person, and the newer you will either detached completely, or you simply end up as acquaintances or friends. When you start living life again, new experiences, new memories, they will also have a hand in helping you move on. More of your life becomes less associated with him, and the identity that you have forged as a couple dissipates as well.

I am not sure if you feel like your love is slipping away, but time does heal. As your fighting for your marriage, your bond to him will fade. Every loss at understanding, every attempt to build up the courage to try again, it takes away more and more of the will to even try. It helps destroy the love eventually.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

It sounds like your husband continues to remain enmeshed with his family...and is in complete denial over it.

You did the right thing to separate to try to initiate change, but your husband doesn't seem like he is able to cross the divide. _He_ has to choose to break his unhealthy relationship to his family and work out his issues in order to be a better husband/father, but if he is nowhere near that stage...then it all comes down to how long you are willing to stay in limbo.

Some days you will feel mad enough about it to push a divorce through and there will be days when you feel intense loneliness and pine for the family to come back together again. It is natural to ride the fence for a long time on this, but remember:

You can only control your own decisions. And although you can't control husband's choices, you did the healthy thing to bring this issue to a crisis to at least force a choice out of him. It seems pretty clear what his choice is. 

Does this mean he will always remain in his choice? Will there be at some time a change in his heart? That is the million dollar question. Again, you set the boundary, you know what his choice is...so it is up to you to determine how long you'll reside in this holding pattern while waiting for him to meet you halfway.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Thank you everyone. Thank you so much, for these wonderful words of advice that help to center me and give me strength and resilience.

I do not plan on moving out of my condo, unless the landlord kicks me out lol.  I fought hard to get my own place, I will not give it up - especially to move to any other part of the city or to live with a toxic mother in law. That is off the table.

I feel afraid to literally tell him "I will not live with your mother", because to him, that's the end of our marriage. I've built up so much courage for everything else, but I don't have the courage to straight-up say this one last thing. I have to find a way.

And Regretful, yes, he knows that the alternative is divorce. In fact we've talked about it, decided to divorce, then come to this impasse again...it's been a pattern.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I feel like I'm beating a dead horse with the same hammer over and over, expecting a different result.
> 
> Am I?


Yes, you are. He's shown no indication he's going to change throughout all your threads about him. He wants to be with his family more than he wants to be with you. That's what his actions say. 

You need to get on with your life and let him live his.

PS
Stop being afraid to tell him. Your marriage is already gone.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Today we had an email exchange. This is what I finally wrote to him. I hope I can leave it here and not back-track ever again!

"I will not live with your mom. She knows exactly why. I won't explain myself to you, because you blindly defend anything she says and does. 

Please don't talk to me about disrespect. Your family disrespected, bullied and emotionally abused me for 3 years and you didn't stand up for me (in fact you blamed me), now I am standing up for myself and building a very peaceful life for myself and our daughter. Life is much too short for me to continue living with people who make me miserable. I deserve better. As for complaining about my space being too small - it's a much bigger space than I had living in your house, where people fought over closet space, bathroom space, kitchen space, living room space, parking space, and especially emotional space. My little condo is a beautiful castle, compared to all of that. You ignored me when I complained about the lack of space in your house, how does it feel now?

I will never, ever live my life running after somebody else's tails. I will not shop for anything with your brother, mother, or brother's wife - I allowed it to happen when I bought my car, and it was utterly ridiculous. It will not happen again. I am an independent, mature, responsible adult (you should learn from that) who will make my own way, not follow your brother's way. You are in denial that all of your actions require their approval - if you don't have their approval, you can't move an inch. 

I have done so well by moving away from all of that. God has helped me, just like He helped me with every other struggle. I wanted to rescue you from the intensely codependent relationship you have with your biological family, but you love living in this dysfunctional way and being unable to detach. I highly doubt you are happy living that way, but you choose to continue. So be it.

I deserve to have a husband who will make me and our daughter a priority. Not someone who puts us last on his list, after his mom/brother/sister/brother's wife/brother's child. You failed us in so many ways. I am so terribly disappointed in you. Shame on you - seriously, shame on you. 

I should have seen that Bob (let's call his brother Bob) divorced his first wife over this exact same situation, and you guys would follow the same pattern and try to mess up my life in the same way. But I don't regret it, because today our daughter is part of my life. And I will not "let" anyone mess up my life - any time I fall, I will get back up again. The day I left your house, I had nothing but a car full of clothes/belongings, a very broken heart and my baby. Look at me today. Watch where I will be in 5 years, God willing. 10? 20?

You are absolutely right - the bottom line is that we want different things. I want a normal husband who doesn't go into screaming rampages over everything, who doesn't ignore my voice and force a dysfunctional lifestyle on me, and who lives alone with me and our daughter. You want to live as a pack with your biological family, and continue emotionally/verbally abusing me. NO. I can say that with so much confidence! Imagine what would have happened to our beautiful little girl if we'd continued living like that...I don't even want to imagine it. If I'm an adult and you guys gave me anxiety/depression, what would a little child have felt??

Neither do I hold any malice toward you in my heart. I have full confidence that everybody pays for their sins, not just in the next life, but in this one too. What's the need for malice?

And finally: do not issue threats about taking our daughter away from me.

We will need to sign a custody agreement regarding her. I have no ability to take time off from work for the next couple of weeks - when I do, I will let you know. We need a mediator at a family law office to help us with the agreement. Until then, you can take her for one night on weekends. We can do this the civilized, responsible, calm way, and minimize the suffering - or we can do the fighting/painful/confrontational way by not respecting pickup/drop off times and watch the negative impact to our daughter. 

Our marriage was over the day you begged/cried to Bob like an insolent child, to let you divorce me. Next time you try to kick your (future) wife out of the house, be a man and do it yourself. Don't call your brother to do it for you.

This Saturday I am having a housewarming party for my family, our daughter needs to be with me after 12pm (noon) on Saturday. She can be with you until then. Let me know ahead of time."


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)




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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Today we had an email exchange. This is what I finally wrote to him. I hope I can leave it here and not back-track ever again!
> 
> "I will not live with your mom. She knows exactly why. I won't explain myself to you, because you blindly defend anything she says and does.
> 
> ...


Well done! I wish I had the guts to write a letter like that to my wife 25 years ago.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Thank you. 
I felt strong when I sent it, this morning I feel crappy about it. They say it only takes 1 person to turn a marriage around and make it work...clearly he's not doing that, so it would be up to me. And I won't do it, either.

I mentioned my email to my mom yesterday...and she got sad, and basically said, "It's just his mom, please take my advice and accept to live with her, and go look for an apartment with him and put your life back together." She doesn't always say things like this - but she does want me to live with his mom if it's what will save my marriage.

She doesn't understand that I HAVE put my life back together. Without my husband's help. These residual feelings of "love" I have for him won't go away over night but they will fade eventually.

This is the first time in my life that I'm making a decision that only I am responsible for. My parents, siblings, friends, cannot ultimately make it for me. Only I know what I can accept and what I cannot live with...my dad said these exact words to me and I am thankful for his understanding. Ultimately, I have to make a decision and stick to it. I drew the boundary lines - husband does not respect them - and so the decision has been made for me.

It's time to file.


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Thank you.
> I felt strong when I sent it, this morning I feel crappy about it. They say it only takes 1 person to turn a marriage around and make it work...clearly he's not doing that, so it would be up to me. And I won't do it, either.
> 
> I mentioned my email to my mom yesterday...and she got sad, and basically said, "It's just his mom, please take my advice and accept to live with her, and go look for an apartment with him and put your life back together." She doesn't always say things like this - but she does want me to live with his mom if it's what will save my marriage.
> ...


Sad but true, you have to do what you have to do to go on with your life. Who knows what the future my hold.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Thank you.
> I felt strong when I sent it, this morning I feel crappy about it. They say it only takes 1 person to turn a marriage around and make it work...clearly he's not doing that, so it would be up to me. And I won't do it, either.
> 
> I mentioned my email to my mom yesterday...and she got sad, and basically said, "It's just his mom, please take my advice and accept to live with her, and go look for an apartment with him and put your life back together." She doesn't always say things like this - but she does want me to live with his mom if it's what will save my marriage.
> ...


I agree, unless you want to go through what I did and live in a disfunctional marriage for 25 years, I don't think you have a choice.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> I agree, unless you want to go through what I did and live in a disfunctional marriage for 25 years, I don't think you have a choice.


I'm sorry that you look back on the past 25 years and wish you'd left sooner. That is heartbreaking, too.

I will try to actively switch my viewpoint and focus on the future, rather than look at the past. This has to be an active, concerted, focused effort. Not a wishy-washy one, which it has been so far.

This is a quote I found today that speaks a lot to what I'm feeling: 

"Even the jerks earn some of our affection. We can be glad they're gone and yet still mourn the good parts." [Shannon Hale, Midnight in Austenland]


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I am so impressed. What you have done--and your ability to recognize what you have done--really takes courage and hard work. 

Be prepared for the difficult times to return, though--but never, ever doubt that you did the right thing. The situation you described had only one solution, and you made that happen. When things get tough again (and they will, that's just life), remember to be ready to ask for help--not from your soon-to-be ex, but from your own family or friends or agencies set up to help. Don't let pride stand in your way--that's what gets people into more trouble. And remember this 5 years from now!

Your mom probably has very little understanding of how life changes for someone who truly grows up (a lot of so-called adults never take on as much responsibility on their own as you have, and can't even fathom it, so they don't fully mature). Knowing that you can take care of yourself and your daughter--with support when needed--is so empowering. 

I'm sorry you still have feelings for your husband. Perhaps if you think of him as the emotional child he still is, your love will shift to a type that isn't about adult relationships. Be kind, but do not let guilt or a desire to be together outweigh your rational judgment. Step back before every decision involving him and be sure you give yourself at least 24 hours to consider it. Sounds like you are pretty rational, but we all let our feelings take over sometimes! The 24 hour rule prevents that.

God bless.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

sisters359 said:


> I am so impressed. What you have done--and your ability to recognize what you have done--really takes courage and hard work.
> 
> Be prepared for the difficult times to return, though--but never, ever doubt that you did the right thing. The situation you described had only one solution, and you made that happen. When things get tough again (and they will, that's just life), remember to be ready to ask for help--not from your soon-to-be ex, but from your own family or friends or agencies set up to help. Don't let pride stand in your way--that's what gets people into more trouble. And remember this 5 years from now!
> 
> ...


This is very good advice, thank you for it. Many times I've lashed back with an emotional response and later regretted it, berated myself for "losing my cool". But, that was early on in our separation and I'm much more rational now. The 24 hour rule is good advice.

I think it will also help if I "understand" his point of view. In his mind, there is simply no way he could ever leave his brother or mother. Ever. This speaks to the emotional child you mentioned.

I hope that we don't fight over custody for our daughter. I want her to live with me, but see her dad every weekend for 1 night (and maybe during the week as well, if he likes). This is how we've been doing things since we separated, but I'm afraid he'll change his mind and go to court or something. I have to protect myself by getting a custody agreement in place.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Your child would benefit from living with you. Your husband's mother never let her son develop into his own strong independent self, so his identity is meshed with that of his mother. the truth is, when you attack his mother, you are attacking him as well.

It is healthy for a child to go and explore and have a hand in their own development. Whatever custody he has, you will need to counter their influences on your daughter.

Your mother sees the divorce as a failure, while I see it as an escape from a dysfunctional situation. Perception is always different from person to person.

Staying with him would be a failure, a failure for your daughter, a failure for your self-respect, and staying would mean that you, your daughter, could end up just as dysfunctional as your husband. And your husband was abusive, threatening to kick you out, causing you to operate on egg shells.

So does freedom really constitute as failure?


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Your child would benefit from living with you. Your husband's mother never let her son develop into his own strong independent self, so his identity is meshed with that of his mother. the truth is, when you attack his mother, you are attacking him as well.
> 
> It is healthy for a child to go and explore and have a hand in their own development. Whatever custody he has, you will need to counter their influences on your daughter.
> 
> ...


This is very true. Many people see this separation/divorce as a failure, and I constantly "remind" them that I had to remove myself from a toxic atmosphere, otherwise it would have crushed me (and, God forbid, my daughter). I escaped. 

A friend said to me today: "I am witness that you gave him a chance. You even created a life all by yourself and invited him to come to a ready made home, WHICH WAS HIS JOB BY THE WAY (to make you a home and invite you). But you did it - and if he doesn't get that, it's time to move on."

That's a very clear cut way of looking at it, and it helps me move on.

I have made tremendous strides as an individual, and I truly believe I've outgrown my husband in the sense that I am functioning as an adult and he is functioning as a child. Put together, we no longer make a good team...in fact, I don't think we ever did. If I agree to break my rental contract and live with his Mom, I'd be moving back instead of forward. I wouldn't respect myself.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I don't think it was HIS job to create a life and invite you to join it anymore than it was your job, too. Every adult should build a life for himself/herself--and that does not necessarily mean living away from parents, but usually requires some period of separation so one can make one's own decisions and not depend on others to make the tough choices for them (total abdication of adult responsibility, IMO). But you HAVE done your job, and he didnt do his part of it--becoming an adult emotionally. Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders! Best of luck.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

Weird thing to say to a stranger on the Internet...But I'm so proud of you right now...


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

SamuraiJack said:


> Weird thing to say to a stranger on the Internet...But I'm so proud of you right now...


Aww...haha thank you!!! Is it weird to say that this means a lot to me? It really does.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

sisters359 said:


> I don't think it was HIS job to create a life and invite you to join it anymore than it was your job, too. Every adult should build a life for himself/herself--and that does not necessarily mean living away from parents, but usually requires some period of separation so one can make one's own decisions and not depend on others to make the tough choices for them (total abdication of adult responsibility, IMO). But you HAVE done your job, and he didnt do his part of it--becoming an adult emotionally. Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders! Best of luck.


I agree with you. My friend was speaking from a traditional/cultural point of view, where the men are expected to provide for their families.

I'm so thankful for TAM and the supportive comments.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I'm also starting to suspect my husband has *bipolar disorder* because it would explain his rages.... [He goes] into screaming rampages over everything....


OP, perhaps your H does have bipolar as you suspect. The behaviors you describe, however, seem much closer to the warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) than to those for bipolar. For one thing, the rages, codependency, and other childish behavior you describe are characteristic of people having strong BPD traits, not bipolar. 

This distinction between the two disorders is important because, whereas bipolar usually can be treated very successfully by swallowing a pill, BPD is a thought disorder that takes years of intensive therapy to treat -- and it is rare for a BPDer to be willing to stay in therapy long enough to make a real difference.

If you're interested, I describe the major differences I've seen between the behaviors of bipolar sufferers (e.g., my foster son) and BPDers (e.g., my exW) at 12 Bipolar/BPD Differences. If most of those BPD symptoms sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, OP.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Uptown said:


> OP, perhaps your H does have bipolar as you suspect. The behaviors you describe, however, seem much closer to the warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) than to those for bipolar. For one thing, the rages, codependency, and other childish behavior you describe are characteristic of people having strong BPD traits, not bipolar.
> 
> This distinction between the two disorders is important because, whereas bipolar usually can be treated very successfully by swallowing a pill, BPD is a thought disorder that takes years of intensive therapy to treat -- and it is rare for a BPDer to be willing to stay in therapy long enough to make a real difference.
> 
> If you're interested, I describe the major differences I've seen between the behaviors of bipolar sufferers (e.g., my foster son) and BPDers (e.g., my exW) at 12 Bipolar/BPD Differences. If most of those BPD symptoms sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, OP.


Uptown, thank you for those links. I’ve read both of them, and have 2 things to say:

1.	Some of the characteristics describe my husband very accurately.
2.	Some of the characteristics describe ME.

I had never read about Borderline Personality Disorder before. I know that my husband had an unhappy childhood (his father passed away when he was 4 and his mom suffocated him and his siblings with a degree of over-protectiveness that even I gawk at...later on in life he watched his elder brother and brother's wife constantly fighting with each other and the resultant unhappiness was normal in their household). I also had an unhappy childhood because my parents used to fight/argue a lot and stayed together “because of the kids”…and I promised myself I would never put that burden on my own kids, if my marriage was full of constant conflict.

I know that I have a tendency to be very sensitive and I like my space and have a deep desire for people to like me (well - had - I've changed throughout this separation period). When I’d react to our living situation (all in laws in one house), my husband would accuse me of being over-sensitive and acting like a victim. I, on the other hand, would tell him that anyone in my situation would feel the same way. I started questioning my own sanity. I started reading material on how to become less sensitive and forgive others and “shrug things off”, without success. He’d tell me he had to walk on egg-shells around me. But I also had to walk on egg-shells around him, because he’s go into extreme uncontrollable rages. During his rages, I would try to talk sense and rationalize, but he would not have it. I'd carefully bring up a topic that was sensitive to him, and try to speak about it in a very calm way, but his anger surfaced almost immediately. There were other times when I’d have a complete nervous breakdown (it happened twice, the second time that it happened I felt something “break” inside of me).

Now that I live on my own, I do not have nervous breakdowns and I don’t feel depressed or have any anxiety. Thank God. So does that mean that my behavior was caused by the relationship/environment? Or that it’s just “buried” because I don’t have those physical triggers around me anymore (his family)? I do think about them 24/7 and blame them a lot and constantly fight with them in my head. I will bad-talk about my husband and his family to my friends until I’m tired. Then I feel guilty about doing it. I think this is in line with PTSD.

I think I should pay the money, go to counselling, and sort myself out. But I'm afraid I'll be paying large sums only to have someone ask me, "What do you think you should do?"...

I want to try saving my marriage but I’m afraid that we are 2 dysfunctional people that will continue destroying each other?


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Uptown, thank you for those links. I’ve read both of them, and have 2 things to say:
> 
> 1.	Some of the characteristics describe my husband very accurately.
> 2.	Some of the characteristics describe ME.
> ...


very interesting thoughts Orange_Pekoe.

IC can do you so much good. You know what you want to do regarding your M, save it. Expect your H to pull his finger out of his a$$, wether he will, only God knows. I hope for the benefit of your M and child he does.

But you might need to find things about yourself that can help you get better as a person, IC does that. And it can also help you deal with the whole situation, so yeah i would go.

You don't know, and hopefully your child won't need therapy in the future, but it could be a possibility.

IDK, maybe i'm hopefull, but i see that your M can be saved. there's love still in both of you, no cheating has been involved, it will take a lot of hard work, but i believe it can be done.

Lots of time, patience, tolerance and most importantly him pulling his head out of his ass. Therapy, MC.

Don't throw the towel just yet.,

:lol:


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Regretf said:


> very interesting thoughts Orange_Pekoe.
> 
> IC can do you so much good. You know what you want to do regarding your M, save it. Expect your H to pull his finger out of his a$$, wether he will, only God knows. I hope for the benefit of your M and child he does.
> 
> ...


But if he loves me, wouldn't he live with me and our daughter? Wouldn't he be concerned for us living alone? 

I'm starting to think that he does not love me. And love is the ONLY thing I am holding on to. Otherwise, papers would have been filed loooooong ago.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

I keep thinking about an incident that happened a month or two after our separation.

He texted me one night saying, "I love you, please pray to God to help us through this." And I didn't respond.

Other things happened after that, where I told him that I loved him, and we went on a date, and I showed him a lot of affection etc. but for some reason, I keep going back to that text.

My rational mind says, nothing I could have said would have changed anything, except for moving back in to his house with his family (which I was never willing to do and have never regretted).

I think we are proof that love is not enough.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

The reason why you are able to make more positive changes is because you escaped a toxic environment. Who we surround ourselves with have an effect on us. We change and grow with those around.

By separating, you have a chance to detach and analyze your situation, yourself, and you have the ability to contrast your life with or without those toxic elements.

Some of our weaknesses, we have a chance of minimizing by having the self-awareness. We learn behaviors to counter those we find less desirable. If you hate being a victim, learn to create strong boundaries.


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

Yes, maybe love isnt' enough. I don't think that he doesn't love you, but he's codependant on his blood family. He can't break away from them. He needs help, lots of help. it's not normal for a grown man in his situation to choose to be with his mom and brother instead of his W and child unless he's really screwed up inside.

Is he willing to get help?, no, moving with him and his family is not negotiable for you, that's a NO, don't concede of that, for your sanity and health as well as your daughter's.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Mr.Fisty said:


> The reason why you are able to make more positive changes is because you escaped a toxic environment. Who we surround ourselves with have an effect on us. We change and grow with those around.
> 
> By separating, you have a chance to detach and analyze your situation, yourself, and you have the ability to contrast your life with or without those toxic elements.
> 
> Some of our weaknesses, we have a chance of minimizing by having the self-awareness. We learn behaviors to counter those we find less desirable. If you hate being a victim, learn to create strong boundaries.


I definitely did not define or create strong boundaries when I first married. And I struggled with setting boundaries during the duration of my marriage. That is something I clearly recognize and must try not to repeat in future relationships, romantic or otherwise.

It is true that while I lived with them, I somewhat adapted to their lifestyle and accepted things that I otherwise would never have accepted. I look back and shake my head and ask myself, "what was I thinking"? It's true that you can't understand crazy without being crazy. I lived in a madhouse and became mad. 

I was desperate to get married, be loved and wanted, have a child. So I ignored warning signs and picked the first guy who truly loved me back. Love is not enough, no - you need a nurturing environment for that love, and we never had that.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Regretf said:


> Yes, maybe love isnt' enough. I don't think that he doesn't love you, but he's codependant on his blood family. He can't break away from them. He needs help, lots of help. it's not normal for a grown man in his situation to choose to be with his mom and brother instead of his W and child unless he's really screwed up inside.
> 
> Is he willing to get help?, no, moving with him and his family is not negotiable for you, that's a NO, don't concede of that, for your sanity and health as well as your daughter's.


It's not just his codependancy, it's also his ego. 
Moving in with me will be like "giving in" to my demands (he always claims I'm making demands and that he will not give in to them). Perhaps, more than anything, his ego is strong.


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> It's not just his codependancy, it's also his ego.
> Moving in with me will be like "giving in" to my demands (he always claims I'm making demands and that he will not give in to them). Perhaps, more than anything, his ego is strong.



But that's not a demand, that's normal, that's what's expected of him as a father and husband. 

Man need's to get his priority's straight,


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Regretf said:


> But that's not a demand, that's normal, that's what's expected of him as a father and husband.
> 
> Man need's to get his priority's straight,


Maybe it's because he expects me to do anything/everything he tells me to. And not have my own "demands".

I feel like we're digging to the root of the problem here...

His ego. His belief that I should be subordinate...not his equal. I never thought he was this type of person but maybe deep down, he is!


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Regretf said:


> very interesting thoughts Orange_Pekoe.
> 
> IC can do you so much good. You know what you want to do regarding your M, save it. Expect your H to pull his finger out of his a$$, wether he will, only God knows. I hope for the benefit of your M and child he does.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are WAY too hopeful. There is really no marriage here to save. The man chose his mother and his brother, he gives them priority over his wife and child. There is NOTHING here to save. OP is doing an awesome job, and you saying this undermines her progress.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

3Xnocharm said:


> Yes, you are WAY too hopeful. There is really no marriage here to save. The man chose his mother and his brother, he gives them priority over his wife and child. There is NOTHING here to save. OP is doing an awesome job, and you saying this undermines her progress.


I truly appreciate Regretful's advice...but I also feel like I'm being given false hope when someone tells me, "He will realize his mistake."

All indications thus far point to him accepting this divorce, not "recognizing his mistake" and putting us as a priority.

I need to get it through my head, that our marriage is over. Separation is just a legal term. The marriage has been over a long time.


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

I would realize it if i were him. But im not. So if you say its over go ahead and move on.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Regretf said:


> I would realize it if i were him. But im not. So if you say its over go ahead and move on.


I would also realize it if I were him.
I would never sacrifice my marriage, and miss out on more than half of my child's childhood, because of wanting to live with my Mom.
My Mom would set me straight if I ever even tried that.

Hell, most men would stay in a marriage just because of the good intimacy. This guy doesn't even value that.


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I would also realize it if I were him.
> I would never sacrifice my marriage, and miss out on more than half of my child's childhood, because of wanting to live with my Mom.
> My Mom would set me straight if I ever even tried that.
> 
> Hell, most men would stay in a marriage just because of the good intimacy. This guy doesn't even value that.


That's why i say he needs help, lots of help it's not "normal" for him to behave like that.

Here i am, i was begging life, God and who knows who else for my W to give me (us) another chance all those months ago and nothing and your H as the chance there in a silver platter but can't seem to take it, such is life.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I would also realize it if I were him.
> I would never sacrifice my marriage, and miss out on more than half of my child's childhood, because of wanting to live with my Mom.
> My Mom would set me straight if I ever even tried that.
> 
> Hell, most men would stay in a marriage just because of the good intimacy. This guy doesn't even value that.


Your husband will not put you first, if he really thought there was anything wrong with the current arrangement with his family he would have gone out of his way to 'win' you back.

It is now time to emotionally detach from him, just do the official stuff with your kid. Move on. A man like that needs individual help for his co dependency, it is unlikely he will ever acknowledge that he needs help, meanwhile are you going to wait for something that might never happen?


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

aine said:


> Your husband will not put you first, if he really thought there was anything wrong with the current arrangement with his family he would have gone out of his way to 'win' you back.
> 
> It is now time to emotionally detach from him, just do the official stuff with your kid. Move on. A man like that needs individual help for his co dependency, it is unlikely he will ever acknowledge that he needs help, meanwhile are you going to wait for something that might never happen?


I have been in tears a lot this week. I'm sure it's partly because I am PMS'ing, but also because I feel like we meant so little to him. Also I am suffering from guilt as well, because his FB statuses indicate that he's in pain (no, we're not friends on FB but I can see his public posts). I feel guilty for leaving him and causing him pain/depression.

He is also searching for a home with his brother and brother's wife. His brother's wife hates him and does not want to live in the same home as him but he doesn't care.

I also know that they recently sold their home (as in, literally this week) and for a high price...and I never intended to split our assets 50/50 but I'm thinking maybe I should reconsider this one. Should I? Or should I just leave it as it is and only demand child support? Again, if I do go after 50%, I will likely feel guilty. I also own a home that is tenanted. We both bought our respective homes before we got married - we never had anything to do with my tenanted-out home but his house was our marital home where we lived full time.

I can't concentrate at work and I am starting to feel very unhappy with myself.

I also reached out to his uncle a couple times throughout our separation. His uncle had told me to ask him for help if we ever encountered problems in our marriage. So I had high expectations - but turns out the guy knew about our separation for a few months and never mentioned it to me. And also he doesn't call back until several days have gone by. Last week I left a loooong message for him basically crying my eyes out and explaining our situation, and he didn't call me back. Just ignored me. I know he talked to my husband though, and is trying to get my husband to reconsider. But the point is that he did not reply to me. I was stuck on this fact early this morning and it really upset me and made me super sad. In the past, when he eventually has responded, he says his wife has been sick and he's been busy with other things - but he always has time to double check things with my husband first. UGH! I hate myself for reaching out to him.

What a completely screwed up situation.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I have been in tears a lot this week. I'm sure it's partly because I am PMS'ing, but also because I feel like we meant so little to him. Also I am suffering from guilt as well, because his FB statuses indicate that he's in pain (no, we're not friends on FB but I can see his public posts). I feel guilty for leaving him and causing him pain/depression.


Drop the guilt, he has done this to himself! You need to concentrate on yourself. 



Orange_Pekoe said:


> He is also searching for a home with his brother and brother's wife. His brother's wife hates him and does not want to live in the same home as him but he doesn't care.


This is SO incredibly selfish! See? His brother's wife is dealing with the same sh!t as you are! Neither of these men has any business being married since they only care about each other and the mother!



Orange_Pekoe said:


> I also know that they recently sold their home (as in, literally this week) and for a high price...and I never intended to split our assets 50/50 but I'm thinking maybe I should reconsider this one. Should I? Or should I just leave it as it is and only demand child support? Again, if I do go after 50%, I will likely feel guilty. I also own a home that is tenanted. We both bought our respective homes before we got married - we never had anything to do with my tenanted-out home but his house was our marital home where we lived full time.


YES! Go for the money, take it from someone who didnt try to get anything when I left! Dont feel guilty about it! If you dont get it, then hey, at least you tried! Remember this is ABOUT YOU! 



Orange_Pekoe said:


> I can't concentrate at work and I am starting to feel very unhappy with myself.
> 
> I also reached out to his uncle a couple times throughout our separation. His uncle had told me to ask him for help if we ever encountered problems in our marriage. So I had high expectations - but turns out the guy knew about our separation for a few months and never mentioned it to me. And also he doesn't call back until several days have gone by. Last week I left a loooong message for him basically crying my eyes out and explaining our situation, and he didn't call me back. Just ignored me. I know he talked to my husband though, and is trying to get my husband to reconsider. But the point is that he did not reply to me. I was stuck on this fact early this morning and it really upset me and made me super sad.
> 
> What a completely screwed up situation.


The uncle let you down, but considering the rest of the family, its pretty much to be expected. Dont dwell on this one, I know you're disappointed, but sometimes people just suck, and we have to accept that they suck.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

3Xnocharm said:


> Drop the guilt, he has done this to himself! You need to concentrate on yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"Sometimes people just suck, and we have to accept that they suck." <-- one of the best statements I've heard in a long time.

I know that he did it to himself, he created a perfectly-avoidable situation in which our love and marriage deteriorated. I didn't stand up for myself or draw boundaries in the first place which made it so much worse. But now, knowing he's feeling heart-broken too and is in pain, makes me feel so bad and guilty about myself. If I had stayed in that house, I'd have developed full blown depression and mental problems. But leaving (and knowing he is not capable of making it right again) has caused me guilt.

Such is life.


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> "Sometimes people just suck, and we have to accept that they suck." <-- one of the best statements I've heard in a long time.
> 
> I know that he did it to himself, he created a perfectly-avoidable situation in which our love and marriage deteriorated. I didn't stand up for myself or draw boundaries in the first place which made it so much worse. But now, knowing he's feeling heart-broken too and is in pain, makes me feel so bad and guilty about myself. If I had stayed in that house, I'd have developed full blown depression and mental problems. But leaving (and knowing he is not capable of making it right again) has caused me guilt.
> 
> Such is life.


yes OP, such is life. Would you rather be miserable living in that plac eor your H be sad having his family away?

No one wins here, no one wins in a D, he has a choice, i see that his choice is less difficult to make than yours, but he refuses or can't make it even after you have told him and gave him many opportunities to do so. When this is over and in a few years you can tell your D that you tried, you really did and you gave her father many opportunities to live with you and her as a family.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Regretf said:


> yes OP, such is life. Would you rather be miserable living in that plac eor your H be sad having his family away?
> 
> No one wins here, no one wins in a D, he has a choice, i see that his choice is less difficult to make than yours, but he refuses or can't make it even after you have told him and gave him many opportunities to do so. When this is over and in a few years you can tell your D that you tried, you really did and you gave her father many opportunities to live with you and her as a family.


"No one wins in a divorce." This is soooooo true, at least when applied to my situation.

I simply had to choose the lesser of two evils. Leaving that environment was definitely the lesser evil. Staying there would have destroyed me and our daughter. God only knows what would have happened - maybe eventually he would have become physically abusive? Maybe one of our arguments would have turned physical and I would have gotten seriously hurt? How many apologies from him would have fixed that? No...leaving was the only reasonable, rational, viable option.

I thought that he'd see what he was losing and do what it took to get us back. I was wrong.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> "No one wins in a divorce." This is soooooo true, at least when applied to my situation.
> 
> I simply had to choose the lesser of two evils. Leaving that environment was definitely the lesser evil. Staying there would have destroyed me and our daughter. God only knows what would have happened - maybe eventually he would have become physically abusive? Maybe one of our arguments would have turned physical and I would have gotten seriously hurt? How many apologies from him would have fixed that? No...leaving was the only reasonable, rational, viable option.
> 
> I thought that he'd see what he was losing and do what it took to get us back. I was wrong.


As negative a thing as divorce is, it really is the HEALTHY option in many cases, yours being one of them. Keep in mind, that if he HAD done what it took to get you back, that his behavior regarding his family is so ingrained into who he is, that things would have gone right back how they were, sooner rather than later.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

3Xnocharm said:


> As negative a thing as divorce is, it really is the HEALTHY option in many cases, yours being one of them. Keep in mind, that if he HAD done what it took to get you back, that his behavior regarding his family is so ingrained into who he is, that things would have gone right back how they were, sooner rather than later.


Thank you for this reminder. 

He wants it to go back to how it was even today (live in one house, do everything together) and that is such an alien concept to me now. I don't know how I was able to trample over my needs as an individual and live that way for 3 years.

I used to be so naive, thinking that people get divorced because they hate each other and don't want anything to do with each other. But I love him and want to be physically close with him. Sometimes I think about just sitting in the car next to him when he comes to pick up our daughter, giving him a big hug and saying "I love you and miss you". It would be easier if I hated him.


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Thank you for this reminder.
> 
> He wants it to go back to how it was even today (live in one house, do everything together) and that is such an alien concept to me now. I don't know how I was able to trample over my needs as an individual and live that way for 3 years.
> 
> I used to be so naive, thinking that people get divorced because they hate each other and don't want anything to do with each other. But I love him and want to be physically close with him. Sometimes I think about just sitting in the car next to him when he comes to pick up our daughter, giving him a big hug and saying "I love you and miss you". It would be easier if I hated him.


What does he say when you have told him to move in with you and D?, Why does he say he can't leave his mom and brother?


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Have you thought of being selfish? Start doing other things other than a relationship that makes you happy. Take a trip for a day, do something you could not do when your married. Shift your identity away from being his wife, into a single person again. Start making decisions for I instead of WE in mind. At some time, the only decisions or consideration you should give him is when your both making a decision about your daughter.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Regretf said:


> What does he say when you have told him to move in with you and D?, Why does he say he can't leave his mom and brother?


He says my place is too small, he asks me to break my rental contract and look for a bigger place with him (as in shop together for an apartment with his brother/brother's wife) so that we can live across the street from them. And a 3-bedroom because his mom will be living with us too.

When I say no, I will not break my contract, you move in with us, he says, "OK fine" and walks away and makes divorce plans.


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> He says my place is too small, he asks me to break my rental contract and look for a bigger place with him (as in shop together for an apartment with his brother/brother's wife) so that we can live across the street from them. And a 3-bedroom because his mom will be living with us too.
> 
> When I say no, I will not break my contract, you move in with us, he says, "OK fine" and walks away and makes divorce plans.


Why does he insist on his mother living with you?, can't she live on her own?, can't his brother look after her?


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Have you thought of being selfish? Start doing other things other than a relationship that makes you happy. Take a trip for a day, do something you could not do when your married. Shift your identity away from being his wife, into a single person again. Start making decisions for I instead of WE in mind. At some time, the only decisions or consideration you should give him is when your both making a decision about your daughter.


When I shopped for a condo, and moved and bought furniture for my new place on my own, that was my attempt to shift away from my concept of "together with him" to just me as a single mom. Now, I am stuck again - because part of me thought he'd join us after I moved. So although I physically moved my things, I never moved my heart away from him.

I am planning a vacation with my daughter in June. I hope that will help. I have never been good at being selfish...my mother was always (and is still) the self-sacrificing martyr and taught me to be the same. It did not work out for me. I must change.

Mr. Fisty, thank you for your insight - always.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Regretf said:


> Why does he insist on his mother living with you?, can't she live on her own?, can't his brother look after her?


She can live with the elder brother. His brother insists on mom living with him, too. So the only outcome is for her to have 2 bedrooms (one in both our homes) and for us to live across the street or in the same building so that when my husband comes home at the end of his work day, he can go straight across the street to see her. He literally said to me, "When I come home at 6pm, I want to be able to see my mom right away, not drive half an hour."

I don't want that lifestyle. Where my husband spends all his free time with his mom.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Another reason I don't want his mom living with us: If she lives with us, her daughter will visit us constantly. And I absolutely cannot stand my husband's sister...she tortured me mentally/emotionally with her passive-aggressiveness. I cried all throughout my pregnancy because she was super cold toward me and I had no way of avoiding her because we lived in the same house!

Did I mention she recently left her husband too? She's only be married 8 months...and 3 months after their wedding, she told her hubby "I don't want to live together with your parents and family". KARMA IS A BEEEYOTCH. I lasted 3 years, she did not last 3 months.

Long story short: She might get a divorce from her husband. She might move back to live with her mom. If her mom lives with me...you get the idea. NEVER!!!!!!

I have a feeling the elder brother and his wife/child will get their own home, and my husband will end up living with his mom and sister. While I enjoy my freedom and raise my child. Oh - I just saw a bright light.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Another reason I don't want his mom living with us: If she lives with us, her daughter will visit us constantly. And I absolutely cannot stand my husband's sister...she tortured me mentally/emotionally with her passive-aggressiveness. I cried all throughout my pregnancy because she was super cold toward me and I had no way of avoiding her because we lived in the same house!
> 
> Did I mention she recently left her husband too? She's only be married 8 months...and 3 months after their wedding, she told her hubby "I don't want to live together with your parents and family". KARMA IS A BEEEYOTCH. I lasted 3 years, she did not last 3 months.
> 
> ...


Honestly, H sounds like he has serious mommy issues. His family is a train wreck. I get that you thought he would join you and it is taking some time to adjust to the hurt of that but the GOOD news is that you are able to get a little emotional space now that you have your own physical space, to the point where you are starting to see some of the benefits of the separation - like the "bright light."

I'm working on that too and it is a struggle, but so worth it. Start to make the space yours and your daughters. It doesn't have to mean spending lots of money. It could be as simple as putting up some photos around the house of you and your daughter (no old family snaps that include your husband's family or him), or buying some flowers, but as some of the other posters astutely said, starting to think as an "I" can help with the transition. I bought some girly, frilly sheets that make me happy every time I look at them because now that bed is MINE! Make some family memories for your daughter of the 2 of you - take her to a museum or to the park. Those new snippets of a life for you two will start to help you and her see your new place as your new home base rather than something temporary. Good luck! Sounds like you're off to a good start.


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## Regretf (Oct 13, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Another reason I don't want his mom living with us: If she lives with us, her daughter will visit us constantly. And I absolutely cannot stand my husband's sister...she tortured me mentally/emotionally with her passive-aggressiveness. I cried all throughout my pregnancy because she was super cold toward me and I had no way of avoiding her because we lived in the same house!
> 
> Did I mention she recently left her husband too? She's only be married 8 months...and 3 months after their wedding, she told her hubby "I don't want to live together with your parents and family". KARMA IS A BEEEYOTCH. I lasted 3 years, she did not last 3 months.
> 
> ...


The why doesn't then sister live with the mother?, is her mother disabled?, can't she take care of herself?


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Regretf said:


> The why doesn't then sister live with the mother?, is her mother disabled?, can't she take care of herself?


No she's not disabled and yes she can take care of herself but they will never "abandon" their mom. To them, it's considered abandonment. She's fully capable of living alone with her daughter but they'd never do that...her sons are willing to give up their spouses/kids to live with their mom, you think they're going to let the woman live by herself?


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

joannacroc said:


> Honestly, H sounds like he has serious mommy issues. His family is a train wreck. I get that you thought he would join you and it is taking some time to adjust to the hurt of that but the GOOD news is that you are able to get a little emotional space now that you have your own physical space, to the point where you are starting to see some of the benefits of the separation - like the "bright light."
> 
> I'm working on that too and it is a struggle, but so worth it. Start to make the space yours and your daughters. It doesn't have to mean spending lots of money. It could be as simple as putting up some photos around the house of you and your daughter (no old family snaps that include your husband's family or him), or buying some flowers, but as some of the other posters astutely said, starting to think as an "I" can help with the transition. I bought some girly, frilly sheets that make me happy every time I look at them because now that bed is MINE! Make some family memories for your daughter of the 2 of you - take her to a museum or to the park. Those new snippets of a life for you two will start to help you and her see your new place as your new home base rather than something temporary. Good luck! Sounds like you're off to a good start.


Beautiful advice. I've been meaning to put a photo of us on the table in the hallway but it keeps getting put off. And I haven't even bought a bed yet because I keep thinking, "If I buy a queen sized bed and he moves in with us it will be too small...if I buy a King sized bed it won't fit...". 

Time to buy a bed! We've been sleeping on futons for 2 months!


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Hi everyone,

It’s been a few weeks since I’ve posted here. A few things to update you on, and of course, I need your advice once again.
Those of you who know my story, know that I still love my husband a lot. I was also feeling guilt because his FB statuses showed how much turmoil he’s in (about feeling depressed and having lost hope/love etc.). I realized he’s unable to take the steps to show me he cares, so I did it instead. I asked him to join our daughter and I at the park, and he did. Very happily – he brought us pizza and we took her to Chucky Cheese’s. When we got inside, he asked me how I was, and held out his hand for me to hold, and after a few seconds of waiting, I hugged him instead. It was a beautiful evening. The next day I invited him to my home, and made him a really good dinner. He left late that night. For the next two Fridays, when he’d pick up our daughter, we’d first go for prayer together, then dinner together. If you were a stranger looking at us, you’d think we are the happiest couple on the planet, unaware of all the past 9 months of heartache and turmoil. But – it’s not an act – we do love each other a lot. He loves me too. 

Long story short – we talked about our situation – and I told him that we love him and want him to live with us. He said he wants me to get a 3-bedroom so that his mom can live with us too, in a different area close to his brother. To make matters worse – his sister who is married 8 months has left her husband and she’s got to live with us too.

Of course, I told him no. I said I would not live with his sister. His mom, MAYBE, if she spends half the time with us and half the time with his older brother. But sister, no way. On our way home, I cried a lot, very silently, and he held my hand the whole time. When he dropped me off he kind of broke down crying and said, “Please don’t do this, try to understand that I have a responsibility to them, please don’t make me lose you.” And I said, “Your older brother can step in and take care of them too, but he gets to move into an apartment with his wife and children, while you and I get a divorce? Why does your brother’s wife get everything she wants and I have to suffer? No I don’t understand…because you have a responsibility to me and our daughter too. I waited 9 months and forgave you and you still won’t make us your priority. I will love you until the day that I die but it doesn’t seem to be enough.” I said goodnight and went home.

The next day he asked to see me. He brought our daughter to the playground, gave me a big hug, and said, “Please don’t cry, I will make it work. I will move into your neighbourhood with my mom and sister, and live half the time with them and half the time with you, support you both.” 

I got upset. I said, “No, you’re my husband and we are supposed to live together. You can’t have your cake and eat it, too.” And a bunch of other things – I don’t want to type too much – but I declined his offer and said that if he’s not going to move in with us, to not waste my time and allow both of us to move on. He said he loves me a lot, I said to him that he doesn’t love me…otherwise we wouldn’t be going through this. Also told him his mom and sister should live alone together. He said, “I am not choosing them over you”, I said yes you are! Anyway – he was very emotional and sad as well.

Later on that night we texted each other, he said that he thinks I’m an amazing person and that he hopes I will find a wonderful guy who will take care of me and my daughter. And that this entire process is very hard for him and that he hopes he will have enough strength to get through it. I told him I hope he comes to his senses before it’s too late. And that I won’t let this divorce happen without ensuring financial support for our daughter – and he agreed.

Now I am thinking about his “offer” again. To move in to my neighbourhood, live with his mom and sis, and live with me half the time. Did I do the right thing? Or should I take it? I love him a lot – the thought of divorcing him breaks my heart. But I’m also looking at how he let me live at my parents’ house for 6 months, even though I begged him to get an apartment with me so that we didn’t have to live with his family anymore. And also how he hasn’t moved in with me now that I have my own condo. My parents are suggesting that I give it a try, bc I haven’t been able to kill my feelings for him, he’s my daughter’s father, and maybe slowly everything will be OK again. 

What do you think I should do?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> *Now I am thinking about his “offer” again. To move in to my neighbourhood, live with his mom and sis, and live with me half the time. * Did I do the right thing? *Or should I take it? * I love him a lot – the thought of divorcing him breaks my heart. But I’m also looking at how he let me live at my parents’ house for 6 months, even though I begged him to get an apartment with me so that we didn’t have to live with his family anymore. And also how he hasn’t moved in with me now that I have my own condo. My parents are suggesting that I give it a try, bc I haven’t been able to kill my feelings for him, he’s my daughter’s father, and maybe slowly everything will be OK again.
> 
> What do you think I should do?


Absolutely NOT, DO NOT settle for this crappy offer. As you yourself said, he is trying to cake eat. YOU and your daughter are supposed to be his priority. PERIOD. You dont deserve a part time husband. He is never going to be the husband that you need him to be, at least not permanently. He may put on a good show for a short time to get you back, but in the end, he has shown you who he is and where his priority lies, and it isnt with you.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

3Xnocharm said:


> Absolutely NOT, DO NOT settle for this crappy offer. As you yourself said, he is trying to cake eat. YOU and your daughter are supposed to be his priority. PERIOD. You dont deserve a part time husband. He is never going to be the husband that you need him to be, at least not permanently. He may put on a good show for a short time to get you back, but in the end, he has shown you who he is and where his priority lies, and it isnt with you.


This was my first reaction! 
Then I saw the conflict clear on his face - struggling between them and me. And I realized that he truly does feel responsible for them. They take so much advantage of him...and he doesn't see it. But I don't think I can MAKE him see that they are taking advantage of him...that's for him to see, but only if he is willing.

I have no reason to think his temper has changed. He hasn't gone to counselling and I know he loses it when he's under too much stress. 

Then I think about my daughter...if I divorce him, I battle loneliness. Which I can handle, but what if in future I remarry and my daughter feels neglected?? Then will I beat myself up and regret this divorce?? He has good qualities too - I'm overweight but he's never ONCE complained about it, and has always been attracted to me physically. He is faithful and loving and caring. What if I divorce him and then regret it, because I can't find these traits in another man? Oh God, I am so stuck with this decision.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

His faithfulness is not towards you and your daughter first, he is emotionally stunted, and would make a poor role model for your daughter. So, what happens if instead he leaves constantly instead of trying to kick you out.

If your settling, your doing it out of fear for the unknown. He is a known miserable factor. Issues with people remarrying is that they marry because they do not want to be alone, rather than marrying for things to align in the best possible situation.

You should be investing in yourself as it stands. Work out, make a lifestyle change. Wake up and work out for about 20 to 30 minutes. Eat small meals, and snack on healthy foods.

If you go back as things stand right now, you will face the same issues in which you left, and if you return, you have nothing to complain about, because your going back to the same situation with your eyes wide open, knowing with fore sight what issues will come up again. Your going back to a chaotic situation, and to expect that you will be mentally healthy in that situation, is folly. His issues will have an effect over time on your mental health as well. We pick up qualities or are effected by others issues around us. Your daughter might not end up with any healthy parent.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Mr.Fisty said:


> His faithfulness is not towards you and your daughter first, he is emotionally stunted, and would make a poor role model for your daughter. *So, what happens if instead he leaves constantly instead of trying to kick you out.*
> 
> If your settling, your doing it out of fear for the unknown. He is a known miserable factor. Issues with people remarrying is that they marry because they do not want to be alone, rather than marrying for things to align in the best possible situation.
> 
> ...


In my heart, I know this is true. Everything you wrote. I even know that, if he moves in to a place I own, instead of kicking me out, he will just constantly leave every time he is mad. Which is humiliating in itself.

I also get upset thinking that he will be financially supporting his mom and sister, while his brother gets a free pass. I will resent them for it.

I thought that, if his family doesn't live with me and he sees me half the time...that they will not interfere. Or at least, I could tell him to tell them not to interfere. But I doubt he will do that - and his family will say and do things to cause problems for us - and I will be forced to stand up for myself again - which is going back to the same situation I ran away from. Which will affect my mental health. And everything else aside, THAT is what I am afraid of - putting myself in a situation that jeopardizes my mental health, my peace.

I built this happy home. I don't want to invite unhappiness again.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Then I think about my daughter...if I divorce him, I battle loneliness. Which I can handle, but what if in future I remarry and my daughter feels neglected?? Then will I beat myself up and regret this divorce?? H*e has good qualities too - I'm overweight but he's never ONCE complained about it, and has always been attracted to me physically. He is faithful and loving and caring. What if I divorce him and then regret it, because I can't find these traits in another man? Oh God, I am so stuck with this decision.*


These are not uncommon traits. Also, who says you ever need another man anyway? Having a man in your life is not a requirement. This should NOT be your focus right now. Living a peaceful, productive life should be.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

3Xnocharm said:


> These are not uncommon traits. Also, who says you ever need another man anyway? Having a man in your life is not a requirement. This should NOT be your focus right now. Living a peaceful, productive life should be.


To be completely honest with you, I want intimacy to be a part of my life, and I don't want to be intimate outside of marriage - or at the very least, outside of a strong committed relationship. (Don't roll your eyes, I am traditional.) 

So I either lead a celibate life or get married again.

I also read in another poster's thread yesterday, that she hasn't been able to find the "spark" or chemistry with a new partner, that she had with her ex-husband. I'm scared of that happening to me as well. A healthy sexual life is part of a productive life isn't it...


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> To be completely honest with you, I want intimacy to be a part of my life, and I don't want to be intimate outside of marriage - or at the very least, outside of a strong committed relationship. (Don't roll your eyes, I am traditional.)
> 
> So I either lead a celibate life or get married again.
> 
> I also read in another poster's thread yesterday, that she hasn't been able to find the "spark" or chemistry with a new partner, that she had with her ex-husband. I'm scared of that happening to me as well. A healthy sexual life is part of a productive life isn't it...


I understand the desire for this, but this is not what you need to be focusing on. Staying with a man who treats you like an option instead of a priority is demeaning yourself so that you arent alone....that would be a pathetic way to live your life. Getting out of a dysfunctional situation and living your best life as your best self is the key to everything.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

3Xnocharm said:


> I understand the desire for this, but this is not what you need to be focusing on. Staying with a man who treats you like an option instead of a priority is demeaning yourself so that you arent alone....that would be a pathetic way to live your life. Getting out of a dysfunctional situation and living your best life as your best self is the key to everything.


"Staying with a man who treats you like an option instead of a priority is demeaning yourself..." <-- It sure is.  This is what it comes down to. This is what I have been telling myself for the past several days. He is treating me as an option.

I married this man thinking, he is a FAMILY man, a FAITHFUL man. I didn't realize he was Momma's boy, and faithful only to his biological family. My daughter deserved better.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> My daughter deserved better.


OP, the next time you start to think about accepting that offer, look at your beautiful daughter.

In another 16-20 or so years, chances are, she will be thinking about marriage. Your decisions now are going to have a major impact on her later thoughts about and choices regarding marriage.

People tend to get into relationships that are similar their family of origin. Because of this, she may find herself in your shoes. Can you imagine her, sitting down and thinking about it? Weighing the pros and cons- should she accept a marriage in which she will never be priority? Accepting taking almost a concubine or 2nd-wife position, because someone else is always more important?

Would you ever want her to be in a marriage where she is not priority? Where people are allowed to disrespect her, be cruel to her? Where her well-being is not respected?

You are her world. You are greatest influence on her. You are her protector. You are her teacher- your imprint on her cannot be overstated. 

Would you want your daughter to take the deal you're being offered? *Because what you choose here is going to be a tremendous influence on what is normal to her later.* 

You already know the answer- it's clear from your posting. When you aren't feeling strong enough within yourself, when you question whether or not you are asking too much for yourself by leaving, take a look at your daughter. I have no doubt that you will find the strength to make choices that you would want your daughter to make in her future. Provide that imprint of self-worth. You have it within you.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> My daughter deserved better.


BTW, you and your daughter deserve better.

I feel badly for your husband. But believe it or not, your leaving offers him a tremendous chance for growth. That pain he is feeling can be a motivator. He will not change without it. Most humans do not change unless there is some level of pain which needs to be relieved. 

I do understand how hard it is to leave someone who you love. I wasn't married and didn't have children but left my ex-fiance. It was incredibly difficult and took a long time, and believe me, I had very clear reasons to leave. Most sane people would have left immediately. So that fact that you left- that you created your own life- even being married and with a young child -that is inspiring. My ex loved me, too. He would have put himself in front of a bullet for me. We had no trouble with love. We had trouble because of his own issues that he was not able to overcome. It is now nearly 10 years later and I have a life I never could have had with him. 

You are very strong and I hope you feel great pride. You are going to be OK.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

RoseAglow said:


> BTW, you and your daughter deserve better.
> 
> I feel badly for your husband. But believe it or not, your leaving offers him a tremendous chance for growth. That pain he is feeling can be a motivator. He will not change without it. Most humans do not change unless there is some level of pain which needs to be relieved.
> 
> ...


Thank you for all of your kind words, they've moved me to tears. I am grateful for this forum because I've had words of inspiration, encouragement and support from people who are complete strangers, yet take the time to read my story and offer advice. Thank you.

I believed the pain of losing us would push him to change in our favour, but it didn't. That's OK - I can't make his decisions for him, I can only make mine, and I decided not to continue living in misery and anxiety all the time. I'd rather walk away knowing I still love him and he loves me, knowing a part of us forgives each other due to that love, than live in dysfunction and fight with him every day and resent him and maybe one day realize that the love is completely gone. 

Part of me said, "My daughter deserves to have her parents together, I should try for her sake." But I did try - a lot - probably much more than another sane person would have. I don't want to screw up her future by letting her think it's normal or acceptable for a husband to put his wife and child 2nd, or 3rd, or 4th on his list of priorities! For him to live with us half the time, whenever he feels it's convenient. For him to be able to leave in anger any time he wants. He doesn't get to cake-eat. We deserve better. Thank you for reminding me of this.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

OP, you put your heart and soul into trying to save your marriage. Even now, the door is still open if your husband would work with you. 

You are doing things, in the right manner, in the right order. You are leaving for yourself and your daughter. You are growing your independence and self-sufficiency. You are offering for your husband to join you. There is no other man waiting to rescue you or help dismantle your family, there is no other objective other than for you and your daughter to have the possibility of a sane, emotionally safe life. 

It is easy to encourage you, even though you are in a tremendous amount of pain, you are doing so well! 

Your husband is in pain and your actions are forcing him to really look at the situation. Who knows what he will end up doing. As his pain increases because you truly are leaving and making a new life, he might re-think the wisdom of his own lifestyle. But if there is even a hope of this happening, it will be because you continued to move on. And if he doesn't have the strength or will to make the changes- then you have still moved on. 

Keep your boundaries. It is not acceptable to you to live with his mother, or his sister, or his family, end of story. Just keep going. As long as you prioritize yourself and your daughter and do what you do need to do, you both will be OK. You are going to be fine.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

RoseAglow said:


> OP, you put your heart and soul into trying to save your marriage. Even now, the door is still open if your husband would work with you.
> 
> You are doing things, in the right manner, in the right order. You are leaving for yourself and your daughter. You are growing your independence and self-sufficiency. You are offering for your husband to join you. There is no other man waiting to rescue you or help dismantle your family, there is no other objective other than for you and your daughter to have the possibility of a sane, emotionally safe life.
> 
> ...


I need someone to keep telling me that: We are going to be fine. When I am logical and rational, I know this is the case. But when I'm feeling weak, I have paranoid thoughts, especially about my daughter's upbringing. I just want her to be safe and peaceful all the time, and I am trying to do my best to ensure that, but I'm afraid of what is beyond my control. I think, though, that's a fear every parent shares, not just a parent in my situation.

You are right, that I need to keep moving forward. If he truly loves me, he will come to us. But even now, a part of me was relieved to know he will not be moving in. I feel anxiety when I think about being around his family (even if they don't live with me, just seeing them/talking to them would be an ordeal, because they would hold my "moment of irrationality" over my head and say "Why did you leave, why did you overreact? You're a bad person..."). I'm also psychologically exhausted. I work long hours and after cooking and cleaning, am just so tired that sometimes I snap at my daughter, and of course she doesn't deserve it. I play with her and make her laugh too - but I also am short on patience. Sometimes when I snap at her, I wonder to myself, "Who would want me in this condition?"
Our home is a happy and peaceful one (thank God) but I still have a long way to go, I see shortcomings in myself as a parent that I want to resolve before I ever allow her father, or any other man, in to our lives.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You both obviously want to be together -- but under very different circumstances. He hopes you will change your mind (you shouldn't). You hope he will change his (he won't because his family of origin is more important to him). The reality is, nothing is going to change with the way he views things. You can love each other to the moon and back and that absolutely is not enough to make a marriage work. 

You are allowing yourself to live in limbo hoping he will unconditionally choose you. That's highly unlikely. There's a slight chance that maybe divorce will be the one thing that will wake him up but maybe not. What you are currently doing absolutely won't work. So you need to be practical and move on -- hard as that is. Otherwise, you will continue to spend your life in limbo. And that's no place to be.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Openminded said:


> You both obviously want to be together -- but under very different circumstances. He hopes you will change your mind (you shouldn't). You hope he will change his (he won't because his family of origin is more important to him). The reality is, nothing is going to change with the way he views things. You can love each other to the moon and back and that absolutely is not enough to make a marriage work.
> 
> You are allowing yourself to live in limbo hoping he will unconditionally choose you. That's highly unlikely. There's a slight chance that maybe divorce will be the one thing that will wake him up but maybe not. What you are currently doing absolutely won't work. So you need to be practical and move on -- hard as that is. Otherwise, you will continue to spend your life in limbo. And that's no place to be.


Love is not enough. That is true.

I have made a lot of progress and decided not to put my life on hold for him. That's why I moved in to my condo and furnished it...to make sure both of us know, I'm not going anywhere. I highly doubt the divorce will wake him up or make him change. 

The only way to for me to move on further, is to divorce him and live well. I think this entire conversation has helped me realize this. 

The "live half the time with my mom/sis, half the time with you" offer is demeaning to me. I will not respect myself. And I will resent him, and all of that will affect my daughter more negatively than the divorce will.

Life is hard...I thought we'd be the last couple on earth to get a divorce. We loved each other that much.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

I just wanted to write a quick update: this week, I've been feeling very good. I feel...peaceful, and happy.  I can't remember the last time that I felt so light! I feel like my heart is very light, and it's because I think I've finally let a lot of things go. The process of trying to reconcile was itself causing me A LOT of stress...now that we are no longer trying to work it out, and have accepted that we will be getting a divorce, I feel so much better.

I'm still sad that this happened - but I realize that staying married to him was not good for me.

With Mr. Fisty's help, I also realized I am married to him, yes, but not in a relationship with him and haven't been for a very long time. That has also helped me let go.

I am working on my weight and health. During my lunch break almost every day, I go to the gym (at my condo, 5 minutes away!) Ah...the perks of living close by work! My aim is to lose 60 lbs in 1 year. 

God willing, everything will get easier day by day. I am nervous about "wrapping things up" (custody, child support, official dissolution of marriage) but I am a much more peaceful person than I have been in years. Some days are a struggle, but overall, my life is going in the direction I've wanted it to be.

Thank you for helping me, TAM members, through this process. It's not over but this forum is such a great help to people who feel lost. And I just wanted to say to anyone who has recently separated/divorced: there IS light at the end of the tunnel, you will struggle a lot at first but if you WANT and CHOOSE to build a good life for yourself, you can and will. If I could do it, anybody can do it.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Good job! Letting go, and accepting the reality of your situation will allow those things to have less power over you.

I like the idea of changing your lifestyle to improve yourself.

Eventually over time, you would of slowly lose your attachment to him. There is no emotional or hormonal reinforcement, helping you heal from the loss.

Also, over time, the memories will be more abstract, losing it vividness.

Perhaps, when you find others going through tough situations, you can be a system of support for them as well.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

What a great update to see from you! :smthumbup:Happy to hear you're starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Regular exercise will have a HUGE impact on your mood, and helps you sleep, so I bet it has helped add an extra layer of happiness to the relief that came with accepting your husband is gone to you. I've found running such a life saver. I'm on a weigh loss journey too, and although it's not coming off as quickly as I'd like, it is empowering to see my body run distances more and more quickly. The little miracles are the most rewarding.


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Good job! Letting go, and accepting the reality of your situation will allow those things to have less power over you.
> 
> I like the idea of changing your lifestyle to improve yourself.
> 
> ...


I used to somewhat blame myself, thinking, "I separated from him, and separated couples usually can't work on their marriages." So I struggled to communicate with him and felt so bad when those attempts failed. When I realized that he was absent from our marriage looooong before we separated, everything came together for me. 

The past 10 months have also given me a lot of time to reflect on some hard truths. He was not a man of his word, he would make promises and not follow through, and it was just excuse after excuse. Now I realize that if I had gone back to him when he'd asked me to (to live with his family), his promise of "we will find a place in a few months" was meaningless because I'd still have to live with his mom and sister.

I am just so happy I do not have to deal with my in laws any more! They are a part of my daughter's life and although I'm not happy about that, it's her right and I would not take away that right from her or purposefully taint their relationship. I'm ECSTATIC that I do not have to see them, talk to them, or be manipulated by them any more!


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## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

joannacroc said:


> What a great update to see from you! :smthumbup:Happy to hear you're starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Regular exercise will have a HUGE impact on your mood, and helps you sleep, so I bet it has helped add an extra layer of happiness to the relief that came with accepting your husband is gone to you. I've found running such a life saver. I'm on a weigh loss journey too, and although it's not coming off as quickly as I'd like, it is empowering to see my body run distances more and more quickly. The little miracles are the most rewarding.


Exercise has had a huge impact, I can feel it already. I haven't lost weight, but I sleep much better and I feel stronger. That "burn" I feel midway through my run feels great! I'm so glad that you are also feeling the rewards and benefits of regular exercise.

I look at pictures of myself from 5 years ago and I know that if I try very hard, I can get back to that.  I did not leave an unhappy marriage and a prison, only to be an unhappy prisoner in my own body. We got this!


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## mupostori (May 20, 2012)

I think the offer was a good starting point , I think the part that was lacking ,is he has to sleep at your house everyday and has to be home by an agreed time.My point is a married man has no business sleeping alone and If you are a working person you only spend a couple of hours seeing your relatives even if you live in the same house .

I don't know what your religion is but your husband has an obligation to look after his family and parents.

Even though I am pro-marriage i'm concerned with the level of immaturity that your husband has.

What is you mother in-laws position regarding the divorce .

Moving out of that toxic situation was a good move .


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