# 6 months of counselling. What now?



## seachange (Nov 3, 2009)

Can anyone out there share any perspective on the impact of counselling to make the relationship feel right? I spent years distant and neglecting my wife then entered therapy six months ago as the last chance to salvage the marriage. Jumped in with both feet only to find that my wife seems to only be half there. 

My hopes of rekindling the marriage I had always hoped for are being met with indifference and interest in anything but me.

When I put all my attention to her and try to be the husband I think I should be she runs away emotionally. When I retreat and neglect she wonders where I went and seeks me out.

It seems like there are a few minutes of intimacy experienced in any given month. It is deflating to have put so much into repair only to find a shallow and unfulfilling relationship.

I cant be the only one to have experienced this. Any thoughts people have about this would be appreciated to help me understand.

Does this change over time?
Is she checked out for good?
Am I being too nice? Too caring?
Is she just hanging on for fear of the unknown?
How can you tell if your spouse still loves you?
How long will this last?


Thanks in advance for any input you might have.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Is she committed to trying to make things better? If so, what is it she is doing to show her commitment? 

You are in a tough spot. Being too nice to a woman comes across as weak, and women don't have sex with weak men. 

Is she able to be really clear about what she wants from you?

How about what you want from her? Because if this is only going to be about what she wants, 

Most men want more physical connection/more touching and yes more sex from their wives. Is she willing to make that effort for you while you are making all this effort for her? If she is turned off by you, she needs to be honest about that and tell you why and if it is fixable. 








seachange said:


> Can anyone out there share any perspective on the impact of counselling to make the relationship feel right? I spent years distant and neglecting my wife then entered therapy six months ago as the last chance to salvage the marriage. Jumped in with both feet only to find that my wife seems to only be half there.
> 
> My hopes of rekindling the marriage I had always hoped for are being met with indifference and interest in anything but me.
> 
> ...


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## seachange (Nov 3, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback MEM.

*How is she showing her committment?* I think she feels like by making dinner and taking care of the kids she is there. She is also going through a big push to be independent. In fact it is working! She is stronger and more in control of herself than ever before. She is doing really well in that area. (I need to do the same) I think the problem is that she is reluctant to rely or become intimate with me for fear of losing this new sense of self. If anything she shows her commitment to herself. (Which is cool... but leaves our marriage in tough spot and leaves me feeling like a yo yo)

*Being too nice is an issue I do have.* I vacillate between 95% too nice (passive) and 5% absolutely rude and mean (aggressive). So that is my work to gain some balance there.

*Is she clear about what she wants? * I think so. But this an area I should dig into. It also means that I need to be clear about what I want. Being able to effectively communicate that is a challenge for me. I struggle between wanting to be nice and being demanding. I hate the idea of being viewed as 'weak' so I often say nothing, which builds up resentments. Then I explode and she pulls back even further.

She says she is not turned off by me. But her actions tell a different story. This also seems like an area and that I need to address head on.

Has anyone been on either the husband or wife side of a similar situation that can help me understand how to effectively address these issues?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

How often do you have sex? 
How often do you actually want to have sex?
How often does she reject you?

Being a mom is fine - but it has little to do with being a wife. 

Have you told her what you need her to do for you to feel she is committed to YOU?

This whole - I don't want to be intimate because I don't want to lose my sense of self is just code. It really means: I am not attracted to you, don't want to ever have sex with you, and do NOT want to tell you that. 

As for the passive/aggresive thing. I think you need to learn to coach yourself to have conflict when you are not red hot angry. Really angry people do not take a firm, smart approach to a conversation. They end up saying stupid things and getting outmaneuvered. 

A simple approach to this is to say: 
Plenty of independent women are married and have regular sex with their husbands. If being independent means you don't want to have sex, then be honest and tell me. If you just find me unattractive, tell me that also. Otherwise I expect sex twice a week. So either be honest and admit you dislike it, or just do it. 







seachange said:


> Thanks for the feedback MEM.
> 
> *How is she showing her committment?* I think she feels like by making dinner and taking care of the kids she is there. She is also going through a big push to be independent. In fact it is working! She is stronger and more in control of herself than ever before. She is doing really well in that area. (I need to do the same) I think the problem is that she is reluctant to rely or become intimate with me for fear of losing this new sense of self. If anything she shows her commitment to herself. (Which is cool... but leaves our marriage in tough spot and leaves me feeling like a yo yo)
> 
> ...


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## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

based on what you've posted, your wife has been alone in many ways for quite some time

she needs time to adjust to your newfound enlightened attention

and as long as she needs to adjust is as long as she needs

i don't see your situation as a matter of strategy as much as one of making things right and then allowing your wife to come to terms with how she feels 

about how she'd been treated for so long

and how she's being treated now for so short a time

your treatment of your wife before was a very long cold winter for her

and now you're a very short spring

she's waiting to see how long until winter again sets in


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

I agree with recents beautifully written post!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I totally disagree with the approach recent cloud suggested for a number of reasons:
- During the time he was emotionally distant she was a partner in the marriage as well. So if she was unhappy she was responsible for addressing it. You cannot put ALL of this on him. Like he was bad and she was good all that time. It is rarely like that. 
- This whole open ended - he has to try to be perfect until she decides she forgives him and she gets as long as she wants is not even close to reasonable. 

A man in this situation is in a tough spot. While being kind and loving is a warm bonding thing. It is a turn off for some women. 

None of us know exactly what was what in this marriage. Still if there is no mercy after 6 months - then it is time for him to explain what HIS NEEDS are. Because his need for love/sex is no different then her need for attention/talk. They are the same. 

Reverse it - if she had been frigid for a long time and then had been knocking it out of the part for the last 6 months and SHE posted that he was still acting withdrawn and emotionally cold we would all be telling her to tell him to get over himself and recirprocate. 6 months of making up without reciprocity is a long time. 

Very common problem - woman loses desire for man. Lots of reasons - still it is what it is. She doesn't want to lose him though. So what happens is an endless stream of compaints/excuses.... I would bet that is the case here. 







recent_cloud said:


> based on what you've posted, your wife has been alone in many ways for quite some time
> 
> she needs time to adjust to your newfound enlightened attention
> 
> ...


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## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

where you cynically see an endless stream of compliants/ excuses i see two people who want to love one another in a healthy way finally talking after probably many years of deadly silence, trying to figure it out.


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> Very common problem - woman loses desire for man. Lots of reasons - still it is what it is. She doesn't want to lose him though. So what happens is an endless stream of compaints/excuses.... I would bet that is the case here.



Look. When your spouse is detached and distant first step is that you feel pain. Then in time you learn to live with that detachment. It becomes your life. You love the person a lot and wouldn't leave the marriage, you're not exactly fond of not being so close emotionally but you can handle it. Now...after a looong period of time of living like that, your spouse suddenly decides they want to be there and get along with you. You're used to that distance. You know getting close might mean pain again. So you are pretty reluctant to do it.

Hence, when he gets close to her, she tends to pull away a bit, yet when he detaches, she tends to 'seek him out'. Because she's maintaining that perfect distance that keps her close enough but safe and out of pain. She's prolly doing this without realizing, it's probably wayyyy down in her brain and formed behaviour over time. 

If i'd have read this a year or so ago i would have said it's a big pile of psychological jumbo. But, since i acted the same way and i am still (!) having a hard time letting go of some frustration, jealousy, vulnerability after almost a year since i started, it might be the case with his wife too. 

A good marriage is one where, every time people grow apart, don't get along..or anything like that...at least one of them tries to do something and doesn't think 'hey, you know, i'm the only one giving', because tell ya what, they might be so focused on what they are giving that they fail to see what they receive. 

Plus, this


> the husband I think I should be


 sounds wrong from the start. What's the husband she thinks you should be? During counseling, at home, anywhere, did you tell eachother honestly what's your view on what a good marriage or relationship is? What each of you feel they are missing? Eventually you can swap needs (each does what the other requested). If i want food and you bring me water, i will appreciate the gesture but i'll still be hungry


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I am not being cynical. Loss of desire is a very, very common outcome in marriage. And it is probably the most frequently concealed breakdown because generally if you tell the other person directly you are not attracted to them - and you doubt it will change - relationship ends. 

I do think it is hard for a man to explain how important sex is to a woman. The idea that either party in a marriage gets a blank check for redress against past injuries is silly. It really is simple - if it was that bad you divorce them. If not, you forgive them. If it were me - I would nicely explain that if she didn't love me enough to have sex with me on a regular basis just to make ME happy to get through this tough time - then I accept that things have gotten past the point of no return. 

Here I will ask the OP a practical question

Is your wife financially dependent on you?








recent_cloud said:


> where you cynically see an endless stream of compliants/ excuses i see two people who want to love one another in a healthy way finally talking after probably many years of deadly silence, trying to figure it out.


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## seachange (Nov 3, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback.

I did prepare a very direct list of my concerns with the marriage and requests for change and presented in our session last week. 

My timing could have been better. She flipped out and said she wanted out of the marriage. We left the session with our marriage in turmoil.

Later that day she proceeded to seek aggressively to change all of our families plans for the next few months. Holidays, trips, etc. Everything was off the table and we would separate. Normally, I would have jumped in apologized and sought to reconcile. This time however, I accepted all of her suggestions without pause then personally accepted that our marriage was ending. 

I detached and did my best to stay out of her way.

She then explained that she was angry because of the list. Went on to say, that if anyone had a right to be angry it was her for me bringing up the same issues over and over again. 

In addition she said that I was in no place to make requests as she was so angry about my recent negative reactions to issues in our marriage. (I had blown my lid the week before and said some very nasty stuff to her)

Several days of being cold to one another passed before our next session.

In session, we each maintained our perspectives. The counselor accepted both of our requests for separation. No attempt was made by me to seek reconciliation.

We left seperately with the sad agreement to divorce.

I was determined to have my voice and requests for change heard. She was determined to be remain hurt and be treated as the injured party.

An hour later she reached out and sought to reconcile. We did and we addressed many of the issues with agreement to complete the discussion.

Now what? What happens now to make sure this is the real thing in terms of rebuilding our marriage and making it strong enough to stand the challenges that are sure to be aroung the corner?

We are both elated right now. We stared divorce in the face and instead chose to work it out. But what does a couple do to ensure that the future speedbumps are just that and not a complete meltdown like the last several days?

Anyone else have experience with a spouse that will throw the whole thing out the window just to prove their point?


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## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

seachange said:


> Anyone else have experience with a spouse that will throw the whole thing out the window just to prove their point?


you threw your marriage out the window to make your macho point

against the good advice you received on this forum

it's by your wife's gracious spirit that you're still married

get a clue, allow her to work through her anger

re-read earlier posts


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

Look. Let's say this again...you're the one who pushed her away. Now she's scared and detached. 

How can you come and demand 'to have my voice and requests for change heard'?.

'Now what? What happens now to make sure this is the real thing in terms of rebuilding our marriage and making it strong enough to stand the challenges that are sure to be aroung the corner?'

This is what i would do :Forget negative, negative thinking, negative demands. In fact. Don't ask anything. Just give. Keep on giving. Don't ever be angry...don't ever make a face...stop caring if you're receiving anything at all. Just freaking give for one month straight and see how it goes. Just so you don't misunderstand ...this doesn't mean you being a doormat for your wife. It means treating her as you would if there were no problems. 

'But what does a couple do to ensure that the future speedbumps are just that and not a complete meltdown like the last several days?'

They don't provoke even more speedbumps like you just have. Also, sometimes people like to forget there might be speedbumps ahead, so that they can, with a clear head, pass them as they appear. You making a list of the speedbumps and constantly reminding your wife what they are...really really can't help that relationship.


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## seachange (Nov 3, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback. 

Things are changing and I hope that we are able to make some progress here. 

I hope that I am not reading this post in the years to come with regrets.

I am good with being supportive and being a giving husband but 
I feel like it needs to be a 2 way street. 

She is not scared and detached. Just detached. 

I hope things change. I just don't see how simply being positive and being giving is going to make the marriage better. 

Is the thinking there that eventually she will just forgive and open up?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You provide her a list of things that are important to you. 

She says she wants a divorce.

You don't cave and come begging for her forgiveness

She waits even longer - finally she realizes you are serious and that you will accept a divorce. ONLY THEN does she come to you and explain why she was upset. 

Lets break this down. If she was really on solid ground, she would have calmly explained her position in the beginning. But she is not. You have some valid requests and she simply has not interest in addressing them. So her approach, instead of engaging you like an adult, was to try to intimidate you into giving up ANY HOPE OF FAIR TREATMENT IN THE MARRIAGE. 

Seriously - her thing was - you are such a bad guy - you deserve NOTHING - so if you ask for ANYTHING - we are done. 

But if that were true she would have already filed for divorce. It isn't true though. She gets a lot of good out of the marriage so she wants to stay. But she is trying to force you to accept a sexless marriage because she isn't into you any more. 

So - just a suggestion. At the next therapy meeting I would revisit the list with her. And I would nicely explain that if she doesn't think that she can give you what you need, if she really would rather be divorced then be loving to you, then it really is better to end it. 

By the way - do you have an anger management issue? You mentioned that you had flipped out on her a week earlier. How often does that happen? What triggered it? 

Do you have drinking/drug use issue? No offence intended - just asking. 

What would be her top list of items she would want you to change?

What are your top items you want her to change/you want to be different in the marriage?







seachange said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> Things are changing and I hope that we are able to make some progress here.
> 
> ...


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

seachange said:


> I am good with being supportive and being a giving husband but I feel like it needs to be a 2 way street.


Yes. We all think it needs to be a 2 way street. But someone has to start. Since you're the one on these forums getting advice, might as well be you. I said that because right now you are arguing very often. So the general state is tension. That needs to change for either of you to feel at least a bit calm in that marriage and start opening up. 



> I hope things change. I just don't see how simply being positive and being giving is going to make the marriage better.


Because you change your attitude, and become a nicer, more open person. You know, like the person she fell in love with. Once she sees that she'll find it safer to talk to you and listen to you. 

Look, this is just my opinion, based on the fact that both i and my husband have had moments of demanding. And i know that neither of us responded to eachother's anger (it actually made us pull further away).Whereas, when each of us learned to be calmer, hear the other out and have a discussion that didn't put pressure on either of us, we started being able to actually communicate. I was once in your shoes. I yelled and demanded for months. The more i did that, the angrier i got, the more he thought he couldn't talk to me. When i learned to give a bit of space, wait for him home with a smile on my face and be interested in his well being, he started opening up and actually remembering why we were married and why he loved me so much. 

Here's a set of questions :

1. Who started being distant?
2. How much throughout the day do you spend worrying on how to fix this? (it probably reflects in your attitude).
3. Would you say that after a week or so of things not getting better you get frustrated, have a short temper and a fight usually starts?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

No aspiration needed - she already is bullying and attempting to manipulate him. That IS what is happening now. 

Why is it that this guy gets hammered for talking about his needs after he has been making most/all the effort in the marriage for 6 months?

This isn't about him not getting what he wants after 1 week. Or even 1 month, we are talking half a year. 

I don't think he bullied anyone - seems like he stood up to the bully. 




recent_cloud said:


> excellent advice if one aspires to a relationship built on cynicism, bullying, and manipulation


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## seachange (Nov 3, 2009)

> 1. Who started being distant?
> 2. How much throughout the day do you spend worrying on how to fix this? (it probably reflects in your attitude).
> 3. Would you say that after a week or so of things not getting better you get frustrated, have a short temper and a fight usually starts?


Originally Posted by Nekko

1. Who started being distant? I had enough of her abuse and bailed emotionally.
2. How much throughout the day do you spend worrying on how to fix this? Way too much. Significantly more than my wife. Remember she is aloof and not interested in addressing the core issues.
3. Would you say that after a week or so of things not getting better you get frustrated, have a short temper and a fight usually starts? Absolutely. (Wouldn't anyone?) Working towards progress. Against common goals but realizing that while she is *saying* she is interested in making things better for the marriage her *actions* tell a different story.



> Originally Posted by MEM
> 
> Seriously - her thing was - you are such a bad guy - you deserve NOTHING - so if you ask for ANYTHING - we are done.
> 
> ...


The sad part about this is that I am beginning to realize that MEM is right on here. The problem is that _she is just not that into me_. Every step I take towards her she takes a step back. However, when I retreat and seek to separate she begins to be honest and starts to actually work on the issues. It is just her fear of losing what we have.

Does anyone have a different perspective? 

Beyond going through the list of issues, is there anything else to do?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Your responses were very helpful and even keeled. 

A lot of research on divorce has shown that people end up divorced not because of the presence of "conflict", but due to the loss of love and affection. 

There are a few difficult factors here. Your feel tense and angry very often because you love her and she does not love you back. This will make any high testosterone guy crazy. I am not saying it is ok to yell and scream/abuse her. It is not. I am saying that you feeling very angry and tense is completely normal. 

The self medication with alcohol is normal also. But it is not fair to you or her for you to drink and then have conflict with her. 

I think the ultimate problem here is what you originally stated. She wants to be your roommate because it is a very well paid position. But she does NOT want to be close to you/love you, and be intimate/sexual with you. Her goal is to get you to accept her as a permanent, full time roommate. 

If she wanted to fix things, she would be making an effort. But she doesn't because she likes the status quo. 

Her tactics all make sense when looked at from this angle. And basically they are all variations on the same theme: You are flawed, therefore you must fix yourself. Until you fix yourself she does not want to be close to you, intimate with you and sexual with you. 

The problem with this is that no matter what you do, she will always come up with a new list of imperfections. And over time you will feel worse and worse about life, about yourself and about your marriage. 

I look at your list below and see a self aware person who wants to improve his marriage. I listen to what you say about your wife and I see her as totally focused on her goals - which are telling you how broken you are and keeping you at arms length. 

If she loved you and was into you she would be engaged in the therapy and the day to day. She would be saying, I love you - but when you yell at me I withdraw. So what can you do and what can I do, to help you manage your temper. 

She might tell you to join a gym, she might offer to give you a nice back massage when you are tense. She might say - gosh we haven't had sex in a week you must be dying, lets make love. There are lots of things a loving wife does for her man. 

I simply think it is very unhealthy for YOU to be with someone who is clearly getting benefit from the marriage, but seems to care so little about your happiness. 

I will give you a quick contrasting example. 

The night before last my wife and I connected - it was wonderful. And we usually connect about twice a week. More often if I ask. Married 20 years, together 21. Yesterday she worked a 15 hour day. And she mentioned that she had to get up at 5 am today. And yet, almost every night she offers herself to me. Last night at about 10 PM she said "do you want to?" And I just laughed and said "I am going to give you a leg massage and talk softly to you until you drift off." She just smiled. And I proceeded to do just that. 

On nights like this I don't take advantage of her kind offer of her body. That would be selfish. But the fact that she offers means a lot. Because it is a sincere offer. It is her way of saying I am yours - every night. 

And I think everyone should have this or at least be working towards it in a committed way - together. 




seachange said:


> Originally Posted by Nekko
> 
> 1. Who started being distant? I had enough of her abuse and bailed emotionally.
> 2. How much throughout the day do you spend worrying on how to fix this? Way too much. Significantly more than my wife. Remember she is aloof and not interested in addressing the core issues.
> ...


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

Let me start by saying I don't agree with MEM at all. Throughout time I think i've been both in your shoes and in your wife's. 

*Let's see. Tell me if this is what's happening: For a week or two, you worry all the time and expect change, but don't tell her anything, because you don't want to pressure her. She goes on with her life and acts normal (apparently). Frustrations build up in you and at a point you feel like you can hold them in anymore. That's usually the moment when you try start a talk about 'fixing things'. You personally expect her to just listen and comment upon it, at least tell you she understood. In the first two fights she was probably more tolerant..but now, after a few fights, she knows that 'let's talk' means 'we;re gunna have a fight again'....so she tries to avoid the talk. You take that as her not caring about your wants and opinion. You explode in anger. She's thinking 'damn...we're fighting again...how can i get this to stop?'. She can't understand why, for a week you've been normal, and all of a sudden, the same discussion arises. She spends one week or so trying to calm down from the fight so she can start getting closer. By the time she's almost there, you've build up frustrations and the whole thing happens again. How close is this to what's happening? * 



> She might tell you to join a gym, she might offer to give you a nice back massage when you are tense. She might say - gosh we haven't had sex in a week you must be dying, lets make love. There are lots of things a loving wife does for her man.


If the man is generally angry as a personality, sure i agree with you. Now if the man were angry *AT ME* i would not do any of those things and i doubt more than 1% of women out there would. Actually as a general rule of life, if someone is angry AT YOU...you back the hell off.



> Is she clear about what she wants? I think so. But this an area I should dig into. It also means that I need to be clear about what I want. Being able to effectively communicate that is a challenge for me. I struggle between wanting to be nice and being demanding. I hate the idea of being viewed as 'weak' so I often say nothing, which builds up resentments. Then I explode and she pulls back even further.


You didn't even answer this question. What does she want...what does she ask of you? What bothers her? Does she trust you?. Also, don't ask the same question over and over...as in 'why don't we have sex' every week. I can safely say it is annoying for any person on this planet.
Be interested in her needs ..and she may just become interested in yours...but it takes time. Right now she's probably thinking 'you don't care about what i think and want, you're just asking me to change for your needs...' The problem is you're each seing only from your own perspective!
Read back your posts and you'll see how pushy you are.



> I struggle between *wanting to* be nice and *being* demanding. I hate the idea of being viewed as 'weak' so I often say nothing, which builds up resentments. Then I explode and she pulls back even further.


 - you put it right. What she sees from the outside is you acting apparently *normal* for a while, then exploding with anger. 



> I had blown my lid the week before and said some very nasty stuff to her





> Several days of being cold to *one another* passed before our next session





> I was determined to have my voice and requests for change heard


 - determined again= demanding= starting talk about your needs/demands = fight. she knows those talks lead to a *fight*....so obviously, what any other person would do is...she tries to avoid it!). Is this so hard to understand? That has happened for 6-7 months now. It's a reality, not an assumption. To avoid the fight, she tries avoiding the discussion. 



> It has happened at least monthly for the last 6 months.


- and it does nothing does it? It just helps you get frustrations out. Why not change tactics if this doesn't work? Try something else. Be inventive...


> I am not sure as I have yet to see her list. But *I would guess*


 Again, this thread is miles long of complaining, and you still don't know what your wife wants for sure. Why not start with her list next time? Ya know, be a gentleman.

You are seriously making me angry while i read your posts. It sounds to me like at one point you discovered she was in control, ok with her life, and ok without you! (that's at least what you thought anyway).That obviously freaked you the hell out and it keeps doing so.

So basically what you want is to feel like you're important to her! That's the whole point of this.You need her to make you feel like you're important in her life. There's a bunch of stuff that's missing for you, and you make a list out of them, not understanding that you can't put 'love, trust, respect' on a list and expect it to happen. You're not asking for objects that she can run down to the shop and buy. You want a change and you want it tomorrow, you keep rushing it and pushing it and adding pressure and you wonder why progress isn't made and why she keeps pulling away. Whereas, everybody knows the best way to ask for something is TO OFFER.

That's the way i see things. Sorry for the long post.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Here is why I disagree with Nekko.

You have told your wife you want to feel loved. You want to be connected. 

Weeks go by and she gives you a steady stream of non-verbal body language that you should leave her alone. 

She never touches you, hugs you, kisses you. She MIGHT say yes to a quick round of sex if she feels that she MUST, but she does not do it in a way that is loving because she doesn't really love you and therefore making you happy does not make her happy. 

And when you get angry from feeling constantly rejected and say something, she gets upset and says you are being mean to her. But she totally knows that she is ignoring your wants, your needs and your desires. So she isn't really that surprised when you blow up. I bet you it is fairly predictable. The thing is if you WERE to go 6 months without blowing up, just being the nice loving husband I still don't think anything would change. I am not saying this to bum you out. I am saying it because if her issue was really your anger - she would tell you. Her real issues are:
- She likes the stability and comfort of the marriage
- She does not love you/desire you and is not being honest with you about that

Your real issue is that you seem unable to manage your anger. Meaning you know the pattern also. You feel yourself getting angrier. YOU need to be able to say at the end of a week or two weeks - I feel really lonely, and unloved. When you don't touch me, don't act receptive when I touch you I feel anxious and tense. It is like a constant sense of rejection. I am doing what I can to be a good husband, having you cook me dinner does not make me feel loved. I need to be touched, and held and kissed and made love to as well. 

But it has to be done in a calm, even tone. Not loud, not aggressive. And you have to listen to what she says. And you need to be able to tell the difference between a legitimate issue and the theme song of "you aren't perfect." If she has specific legitimate issues that is fair. But the more vague she is, the more general her comments about what you are doing wrong, the more likely she is just making stuff up to avoid admitting to sexual aversion. 



WHEN did her desire/your sex life crash? How was it before that? 












Nekko said:


> Let me start by saying I don't agree with MEM at all. Throughout time I think i've been both in your shoes and in your wife's.
> 
> *Let's see. Tell me if this is what's happening: For a week or two, you worry all the time and expect change, but don't tell her anything, because you don't want to pressure her. She goes on with her life and acts normal (apparently). Frustrations build up in you and at a point you feel like you can hold them in anymore. That's usually the moment when you try start a talk about 'fixing things'. You personally expect her to just listen and comment upon it, at least tell you she understood. In the first two fights she was probably more tolerant..but now, after a few fights, she knows that 'let's talk' means 'we;re gunna have a fight again'....so she tries to avoid the talk. You take that as her not caring about your wants and opinion. You explode in anger. She's thinking 'damn...we're fighting again...how can i get this to stop?'. She can't understand why, for a week you've been normal, and all of a sudden, the same discussion arises. She spends one week or so trying to calm down from the fight so she can start getting closer. By the time she's almost there, you've build up frustrations and the whole thing happens again. How close is this to what's happening? *
> 
> ...


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

MEM - I wish you were there to b*tch slap me when I was first going through my crap. I happen to agree with your analysis that basically this whole thing is an elaborate way to not say I don't desire you, because that is a truly difficult thing to be both say, and be told. 

I've experienced this same situation, and it is one hard truth to accept as it cuts a fella to the core.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

seachange said:


> Being too nice is an issue I do have.[/B] I vacillate between 95% too nice (passive) and 5% absolutely rude and mean (aggressive). So that is my work to gain some balance there.... I struggle between wanting to be nice and being demanding. I hate the idea of being viewed as 'weak' so I often say nothing, which builds up resentments. Then I explode and she pulls back even further.


The trap you are falling into is that you are trying to be Nice (submissive) as an attempt to gain traction in the relationship and it isn't working, which is making you angry, which is making it worse even further. Women typically respond to a more Affectionate (dominant) approach.

Nice and Affection look very similar at times, most typically when the relationship is going well. The difference is that with Affection, there is no attempt being made to curry favor by being pleasant, its simply something the partner wishes to do. Also the pleasantness comes from a position of strength, and faced with unacceptable behavior, the Affectionate (dominant) partner is willing to express displeasure appropriately. Nice is simply pleasant and accommodating all the time no matter the appropriateness of the other partners behavior. Nice is quietly manipulative with an unstated "I did ABC so you have to do XYZ for me".

For the majority of women, being submissive in your approach to them, kills their attraction for you dead. With the attraction is gone, it's only a matter of time before they find a mental justification to start tearing your relationship apart. 99% of the time counseling is just a tool to find the justification for why they don't want to continue with you. The solution is to build her attraction to you. In fact the counselor can even say "I think you should divorce" and if the wife wants to continue having sex with you, she will ignore the counselor.

Build her attraction by being active, assertive towards her, playful hitting on her without expectation of immediate sex, achieving goals and being physically fit. Come up with some little mini plans, just state them and expect her compliance. "Lets go to the zoo/dinner/park/buy new blinds" is so much better than "so what do you want to do today, anything is fine with me".


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## alaflybaby (Oct 14, 2009)

OK! I have been neglected for a while in my marriage. Not to mention mistreated. How is a wife to know that the other shoe isn't gonna drop AGAIN like it has so many times before? Is she just suppose to KNOW that this time is different? Sometimes, it can be too late, and yet she can still be unsure. That's where I am now. My heart tells me it's too late, but not sure that I can let go just yet! Recent Cloud, I agree! How are you suppose to know a LONG HARD COLD winter isn't about to set in again??



recent_cloud said:


> based on what you've posted, your wife has been alone in many ways for quite some time
> 
> she needs time to adjust to your newfound enlightened attention
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Seachange,
If you can execute Atholks suggestions you might be able to turn this around. 

Is it fair to say that at the moment you are either being nice - in a way that might seem weak to her - or you are angry and yelling at her? 

Because you have to learn a different way to interact. NO WOMAN is going to accept a guy who alternates quickly from too nice/weak to angry. 

You have to learn to be "firm/strong" when you are calm. And the post below is right on. Tell her what you want to do in a nice friendly/assertive way. Pick something fun. And then be playful. Tease her - banter with her. 





Atholk said:


> The trap you are falling into is that you are trying to be Nice (submissive) as an attempt to gain traction in the relationship and it isn't working, which is making you angry, which is making it worse even further. Women typically respond to a more Affectionate (dominant) approach.
> 
> Nice and Affection look very similar at times, most typically when the relationship is going well. The difference is that with Affection, there is no attempt being made to curry favor by being pleasant, its simply something the partner wishes to do. Also the pleasantness comes from a position of strength, and faced with unacceptable behavior, the Affectionate (dominant) partner is willing to express displeasure appropriately. Nice is simply pleasant and accommodating all the time no matter the appropriateness of the other partners behavior. Nice is quietly manipulative with an unstated "I did ABC so you have to do XYZ for me".
> 
> ...


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

recent_cloud said:


> oh good lord, the wife isn't trying to get 'traction'


If you're refering to my post, you have it backwards. I was refering to the OP attempting to be nice to gain traction in the relationship. The OP is the husband. In addition I said him trying to act that way was actually turning out to be a negative effect.

If you read all the OPs posts in this thread carefully, he's obviously emotionally withdrawn from his wife for many years due to her stomping all over him. He's got a mountain of rage over her treatment of him built up inside him as well, and that is spilling out at her as well making things worse. The solution is that he needs to assert himself better in the relationship and play a bit more of a leadership role, and manage his anger.

I agree that the wife (and women in general) want to be treated with respect. But if you consistently treat them with deference, they will despise you as a sexual partner.

You have to balance and display both the Alpha and the Beta Male positive traits in a long term relationship. By being submissive to her, he is failing her Alpha based attraction needs. By yelling / verbally nasty etc, he is failing the Beta based building comfort needs she has.

Without tripping the Alpha Male attraction switches, no amount of kindess, comfort and caring (the Beta Male positives) will convince her to be sexually interested in him and engaged emotionally in the relationship. He's been suppling nothing but a Beta Male approach, it's failing, and he's angry about it. The solution is to clearly make a move towards the Alpha side of the spectrum.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Well said. 

Somehow RC is missing the point that the wife is the one who, when asked to improve in certain areas - flipped out - threatened divorce and then spent days waiting to see if her husband would cave and just agree that his needs are not going to be addressed - full stop. Because he is such a bad guy he does not deserve to even have his needs heard. 

They BOTH BULLY each other. Odd dynamic. And I agree that he has to stop. Totally. But - he has to replace beta temper tantrums with alpha strength. And then he has a shot. 




Atholk said:


> If you're refering to my post, you have it backwards. I was refering to the OP attempting to be nice to gain traction in the relationship. The OP is the husband. In addition I said him trying to act that way was actually turning out to be a negative effect.
> 
> If you read all the OPs posts in this thread carefully, he's obviously emotionally withdrawn from his wife for many years due to her stomping all over him. He's got a mountain of rage over her treatment of him built up inside him as well, and that is spilling out at her as well making things worse. The solution is that he needs to assert himself better in the relationship and play a bit more of a leadership role, and manage his anger.
> 
> ...


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> They BOTH BULLY each other. Odd dynamic. And I agree that he has to stop. Totally. But - he has to replace beta temper tantrums with alpha strength. And then he has a shot.


I think she pushes him around, he takes it forever, then he finally snaps and explodes on her. It's actually a quite worrying dynamic. 

I'm not saying the OP is going to do something really awful here. Just that it seems like a small but potential risk of the situation. I really recommend some kind of anger management counseling for the OP. Doing that in and of itself is a positive, active, assertive step. It may buy him some time to get other things in order as well. ("Please be patient, I'm working on this just like you asked me to") Half the assertive stuff they teach you in anger management is de facto Alpha anyway. So well worth the time.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Goodness this thread has become a battle of the sexes. It feels to me like individual agenda's and hurts are masquerading as advice. How the hell can any of us know what's going on in this marriage based on a few posts.


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## peacefully (Nov 13, 2009)

Ditto. I agree with seeking sanity. It's easy to project our own hurts and emotions onto others, but it isn't fair, or kind. A little objectivity would be more helpful in this situation.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Atholk said:


> The trap you are falling into is that you are trying to be Nice (submissive) as an attempt to gain traction in the relationship and it isn't working, which is making you angry, which is making it worse even further. Women typically respond to a more Affectionate (dominant) approach.
> 
> Nice and Affection look very similar at times, most typically when the relationship is going well. The difference is that with Affection, there is no attempt being made to curry favor by being pleasant, its simply something the partner wishes to do. Also the pleasantness comes from a position of strength, and faced with unacceptable behavior, the Affectionate (dominant) partner is willing to express displeasure appropriately. Nice is simply pleasant and accommodating all the time no matter the appropriateness of the other partners behavior. Nice is quietly manipulative with an unstated "I did ABC so you have to do XYZ for me".
> 
> ...


Wow, Atholk, well said--and so often I disagree with you.

I would just add, that if a man crosses the line from assertive to controlling and dominant, he is in danger of making a different mistake. To illustrate: your suggestion about a mini-plan is great--but if a wife comes back with, "I was really hoping to find time today to visit museum/volunteer/etc together" a confident MAN will be flexible and open to compromise. A weak man will insist on having "his way," because he does not want to appear weak.

A confident woman will appreciate assertiveness and will compromise in good faith. A weak man suspects his wife of attempting to manipulate him; a confident man respects her right to assert herself, too. 

OP, I must also add, much of what you write strikes me as stunted and immature. You get drunk and abusive and think 6 months "should be long enough" for someone ELSE's emotional healing? You have no idea of how awful you sound--emotionally distant for years, anger issues, and now setting time tables and making demands on her. 

When I read this thread I think, her only mistake was in not leaving long ago. 

She's fearful of being alone, that's all that has kept in this situation this long. 

Sorry to be blunt, but I think you need to hear it.

No personal agenda here. I read OPs words and think, what an idiot. No insight into what HE must be like to live with.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Atholk said:


> I think she pushes him around, he takes it forever, then he finally snaps and explodes on her. It's actually a quite worrying dynamic.


I don't know where you get that if you have read the whole thread. He withdrew for years--and even he admits she tried and tried to talk to him/get her needs met. HE is the one who has a touchy temper, and drinks too much--and NOT just in the last 6 months. 

Now, HE has suddenly decided to change, and after god knows how many years of her doing without the connection (her big mistake, putting up with it, as far as I'm concerned), HE expects his needs to be met ON HIS TIMETABLE? Ugh. 

After 6 months, she isn't even sure she WANTS to reconnect anymore. None of this has been about how he loves her--he just wants more sex, as far as I can tell. You think she can't tell that is his hidden agenda? It's so obvious from the way he explains things that WE can all see it. 

Where in the hell is she "bullying" him?? She didn't make any demands--he didn't ask, didn't let her. He doesn't even know what she WANTS. 

She drew back from divorce b/c she's scared of being alone. He'll end up alone though, if he doesn't develop some insight pdq.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sisters,
I completely agree with this - and often I disagree with you. 

I also agree that the OP has mentioned some frightening habits which you listed below. And I agree with you this man has some serious growing up to do. 

But this is what her side of the story sounds like - just based on the echoes I hear in his comments:
- I don't like you, you are a jerk and you are passive aggressive
- I am not interested in trying to fix our marriage because we have too much negative emotional baggage
- I DO however want to enjoy your total financial support as I don't want to have to deal with the stress of supporting myself and/or trying to find a new partner who will support me
- So just accept things the way they are. Don't try to get close to me physically or emotionally because - I don't want that. Just keep your distance - and pay for my stuff - ok well I will give you very, very brief mercy sex once a month because otherwise I know you will figure this out

By the way - you cannot take his self damming statements as honest and assume that his comments about his wife are not honest. And one thing she is doing is consistently telling him one thing when her actions are the opposite. There is a word for that - it is called lying. 

He may have been a world class jerk. And he is still clearly immature and has some really bad habits. But he wants to fix things. She seems to want to maintain a status quo that is ok for her and very bad for him. 




sisters359 said:


> Wow, Atholk, well said--and so often I disagree with you.
> 
> I would just add, that if a man crosses the line from assertive to controlling and dominant, he is in danger of making a different mistake. To illustrate: your suggestion about a mini-plan is great--but if a wife comes back with, "I was really hoping to find time today to visit museum/volunteer/etc together" a confident MAN will be flexible and open to compromise. A weak man will insist on having "his way," because he does not want to appear weak.
> 
> ...


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> Sisters,
> 
> But this is what her side of the story sounds like - just based on the echoes I hear in his comments:
> - I don't like you, you are a jerk and you are passive aggressive
> ...


I would hazard a guess she's not really "enjoying" anything related to living with him. It does sound like she's scared to leave, but I would suggest she's not doing any of it intentionally--she's just trying to figure out what the hell she wants to do. And I don't see anything sincere about his effort to reconnect, given how shallow his commitment to her feelings and her experience of their marriage seems to be. He just wants more sex. Did he even say, "I really love my wife?" I don't recall, because the desire to have his way was so overwhelming.

Also, while I might take his words about her behavior as his "honest" observation/reading of things, that's all it is:HIS point of view. The OP has not struck me as a particularly enlightened individual, so I take what he says about her with a grain of salt.


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

> But it has to be done in a calm, even tone. Not loud, not aggressive.


Yes, exactly. 


> How is a wife to know that the other shoe isn't gonna drop AGAIN like it has so many times before? Is she just suppose to KNOW that this time is different?


This is very close to what I think is happening to her, and I guess most ladies on this forum agree to that. That's why acting nice and happy was a good plan. That would show her this time IT IS different. But one week of nice ending in an explosion of anger will just let her know you kept it all in and pretended to be ok.


> Because you have to learn a different way to interact. NO WOMAN is going to accept a guy who alternates quickly from too nice/weak to angry.


Very good point again. That's why i was suggesting he be nice and detached, more in control, stop worrying about the relationship and just wait for it. Also why he shouldn't fight at any cost.


> Goodness this thread has become a battle of the sexes. It feels to me like individual agenda's and hurts are masquerading as advice. How the hell can any of us know what's going on in this marriage based on a few posts.


Yes, and this is a good thing. Because, our fighting on this topic is similar somewhat to the OP and his wive's fighting. We see things in different ways. That's exactly what's happening to them. Every time i read something where the guys on this forum say how his wife mistreats him i get angry, because i know what it's like to be neglected and then yelled at, and i know what i would do if i were the OP's wife. And I don't in any way feel like a man in that situation would deserve it. I wouldn't tend to get close at all, even if I l*oved* the man to death...that's what i was trying to explain. I'm not saying that it would be right to act that way. 



> Now, HE has suddenly decided to change, and after god knows how many years of her doing without the connection (her big mistake, putting up with it, as far as I'm concerned), HE expects his needs to be met ON HIS TIMETABLE? Ugh.


This is how i see the situation too....i don't know, we might be seeing it wrong. It's very possible. But she probably sees it the same, and that explains her actions.



> By the way - you cannot take his self damming statements as honest and assume that his comments about his wife are not honest.


They are both honest. They just have different perspectives and expectations. They also can't communicate without fighting...they don't hear eachother out, and they feel threatened by eachother's demands. Every time the OP is agressive, his wife goes defensive (anger or detachment), and it's normal. But that doesn't get anything fixed. 

You can't just start being affectionate to a person you weren't close to for years...not all of a sudden anyway. This goes for both men and women. She probably doesn't even know how to start. Affection is something you *feel* towards a person, people can't just ask for it and you can't really fake it. But most of the time it's there hiding under anger and frustration. And when the last two clear, the affection comes back too.



> And one thing she is doing is consistently telling him one thing when her actions are the opposite.


He sees them as opposite...that's his view. From the wife's perspective i can say 'he sais he wants to fix things,and he's nice for a week but then he yells at me'. She is probably waiting for calmer seas to get closer, but every couple of weeks she gets a storm. Whereas our OP is so worried about the situation that he wants it tomorrow and is furious when he doesn't get all that he expects.

Just to make this clear, i usually take a guy's side in marriages because usually women get caught up with being moms, think that when they are married there's no point to sex and so on. I hardly think it's the case here. In fact, i find something of myself in the OP because i did start a couple of fights for quite a few times, and my spouse did get angry to the point of almost leaving the room when i would 'start the same pointless conversation yet again'. I also put myself in his shoes, and noticed how bad it was when he demanded, and how less inclined i was to do it because he said it on an angry tone. If he can just detach a bit, be happy with his life and maintain a healthy, friendly and happy attitude, things would change. I am aware that's hard and seems counterintuitive in the given situation.


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## seachange (Nov 3, 2009)

Thanks for all the candid feedback. I don't think I could find this kind of direct feedback anywhere else.

I think everyone that offered up perspectives had some great points. RC and Nekko advise to hang in there, understand that change does not happen on your timeline, and let her come out of her shell in her own time. MEM and Atholk offer good perspective on being a strong husband v. being weak and submissive (and as a result angry). Alafly and sisters seem to have a good perspective having experiences of their own as wives in similar situations.

Just recently my wife did ask me a question that stands out strongly in my mind after a recent discussion about our marriage: 

*"Are you sure that this is what you want?" 
*

She says, I know you love me and I know you love the kids but do you want _this_. What is this? The new reality? Marriage Part 2? 

I also realize now that her need to be a strong independent woman was being interpreted by me as her having one foot out of the marriage and at times as clues that she was having an affair. I never had any proof but was fearful she was (this fear drive me to not trust). 

Now I am beginning to realize that she was just building herself into a person that was strong and independent and that could take care of herself.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

seachange said:


> *"Are you sure that this is what you want?"
> *


If she is referring to the new, independent her it is a valid question. 

Most people don't go through such dramatic change during their marriage and I've heard of people who've had gastric bypass, losing 100 lbs or more...changing so much that their marriage suffers, falls apart.

I guess from your standpoint, if she is making positive changes for herself and being open with you, you have the opportunity to embrace the changes. 

At the same time, it's still a marriage and you still have input and as much of a right to set expectations and be heard.


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

seachange said:


> I also realize now that her need to be a strong independent woman was being interpreted by me as her having one foot out of the marriage and at times as clues that she was having an affair. I never had any proof but was fearful she was (this fear drive me to not trust).
> 
> Now I am beginning to realize that she was just building herself into a person that was strong and independent and that could take care of herself.


Yeah, I've been there, and i know how it is. In fact, i still have trouble letting go of the 'affair' idea. Lack of sex obviously makes this worse...as does lack of affection. So i can understand why you'd push so hard to feel loved. But i guess we both have to understand that we don't own our partners, that they may not understand how we're feeling (and don't really know our fears).

What you said you wife did, to build herself into a strong independent person (since you were detached from eachother she needed to do that, and know she can be on her own if you decide to bail). That's kinda what you need to do too. When you're gunna be okay on your own that's probably when your relationship is going to start to get much better. 

Best of luck to you.


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## seachange (Nov 3, 2009)

Nekko said:


> Yeah, I've been there, and i know how it is. In fact, i still have trouble letting go of the 'affair' idea. Lack of sex obviously makes this worse...as does lack of affection. So i can understand why you'd push so hard to feel loved. But i guess we both have to understand that we don't own our partners, that they may not understand how we're feeling (and don't really know our fears).
> 
> What you said you wife did, to build herself into a strong independent person (since you were detached from eachother she needed to do that, and know she can be on her own if you decide to bail). That's kinda what you need to do too. When you're gunna be okay on your own that's probably when your relationship is going to start to get much better.
> 
> Best of luck to you.


In some respects identifying the affair was the easy way out for me personally. I felt like if she was doing that then I could look my kids in the eye later in life and feel like the ending the marriage was not my fault. Essentially shirking the blame and some of the responsibility. It is not a rational thought because at no point have I stopped loving her or sought for the marriage to end. Instead of having to do the work of communicating needs and desires and addressing the issues -- it seemed like an easier way out.

With regards to independence being the way to success -- I think you are correct. It feels to counter intuitive. The idea that in order to have a better marriage one should instead focus on the individual. In practice it seems to work. Every time I have focused on developing myself instead of focusing on her/our marriage, things have gotten better.

Thanks


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

Yes, same here when it comes to being independent. 
Thing is in my case, my spouse was more attached to me and i was more independent in the beginning. 

Ever since i became less interested in this relationship, i guess he was forced to become independent and rely on his own self (seing as i would ignore him, i reckon being more detached is the normal defensive response and makes a person hurt less over not being shown affection and love). To be honest, I think i would have done exactly the same. 

When i discovered that he was becoming more independent and less in need of me, I, just as you, first jumped to the conclusion that he was having an affair ...almost everything appeared to be pointing to it. However, as i began to ask about some of the details (without letting him know what i was suspecting), i noticed that every single thing had another reason than what i thought pretty much suggesting that i was just paranoid, and an immature brat that didn't feel needed anymore. (As a note, I would make a negative out of anything he did....'brush your teeth twice today did you? bet you're having an affair' and such). 

In the end i learned that being clingy and demanding won't get me anywhere. I also realized that if we were to break up (even if i didn't want that) I would need to be on my own two feet, so i started behaving that way. I simply started living life, appreciating his company but not needing him for anything (affection, help with anything...you name it) and i also never snapped at him anymore (just like i wouldn't with a person that i wasn't so intimate with). I also realized how fragile and vulnerable i felt, how boring I had become and many more. Ever since i tried to be more secure and in control, as you said, my relationship got better and better. And yes, very few people are attracted to clingy people with low self esteem. 

Good luck to you. :smthumbup:


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