# If sex improves your partner's mood, why withhold just b/c your partner's bad mood?



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

OK, some friends of ours have a tough marriage because she complains that her husband is always in an ill mood. BUT we have known them long enough that when the husband is in a good mood, she giggles and says it is because she finally gave him an opportunity for sex. 

So this wife will sometimes stop by for a visit and complain endlessly about her husband, his foul moods, and his unwillingness to improve certain situations. She also seems to brag about how there is no way they will be having any sex together until he shows a sign of improvement. For reference in the conversation she admitted that it had been over a month since they had last been intimate. 

I looked at her and told her that if she knows for a fact that intimacy improves her husband's mood and overall wellbeing, that she should try and advocate for more intimacy in their marriage as a way to help give her husband the strength and patience to solve some of these issues that she always seems to complain about...

OMFG she looked at me as if I had completely betrayed all women on the planet with pure anger, and said it was impossible for her to feel intimate when she was angry at her husband and almost started crying as if I had chosen just to take his side as opposed to actually trying to help. Her reaction was so strong, that I literally felt horribly guilty what I had suggested. Even my wife looked at me as if I said something wrong. But thinking back I do not regret saying that, and it almost makes me angry to know how she brags about withholding sex in her marriage as a way to punish her husband. 

Now the thing is I know my wife does the exact same thing to me, but on a much smaller scale. If I am in an ill mood, she will not touch me with a ten foot pole. If I am in an ill mood and tell her that a hug would help, then she claims I am being needy and trying to force things that just need to happen naturally. I do actually manage to calm myself down and go to my wife claiming that I feel distant and need to reconnect, but it is almost as if she will place me in sexual quarantine for a few days to make sure I've got my sh** together and I am not being too needy. In my marriage I can understand this because it is more about respecting personal space, until both partners have the needed patience to be loving towards one another. In contrast with our friends this cycle lasts for weeks (up to a month) at a time and it is not about personal space, but almost seems to be about enjoying ways to punish each other. 

I guess this post gets into the Michele Weiner-Davis mantra of just do it. And that sex within marriage is a place of healing. But what gets me is that I was not telling our friend to "just do it" much more often with her husband, but to just try and find ways to "advocate" for more intimate moments. The fact that she seemed to take such joy in bragging about her ability to withhold from her husband, but felt betrayed by me suggesting that she should not do that makes absolutely no sense to me. I'm guessing they may end up divorced. 

Was I really so wrong to suggest that?

Badsanta


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

My wife says I'm cute when I'm cranky. 
(that is, of course so long as my crankiness doesn't manifest in specifically unattractive ways like yelling or making negative remarks about her)

Even as an LD, she sometimes takes great joy in seducing me out of a bad mood. She seems to get a little extra kick about being able to do that to/for me. 

I can usually tell pretty quick what type of response my crankiness (which is actually quite rare--I'm a 98% upbeat person) is going to get. If, on the odd chance I'm cranky enough to not want to be bothered with sex, I know I run the risk of having to follow through if she's starting up with that irresistibly cute "I've got a challenge before me" grin. It's even more obvious when the crankiness is not cute--so I knock it off immediately as I don't want to damage future opportunities.

Sounds like your friend is a chicken and his wife is an egg -- which comes first? Unless someone is willing, nothing good's gonna' happen. Somebody's got to give. And it's likely not even steven as to who it's gonna be. Not fair, but that's the way it is. Most women don't want to even be around a man in a foul mood, let alone make love to him, which is understandable. The real problem is if she's withholding all the time he's behaving well--and that's what's causing his foul mood. But trying to put out after the fact is rarely going to work, especially for her.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

People still have bad moods? Most interesting.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

No, you weren't wrong. You advocated that she put the good of her partner, and the good of her marriage, in front of her whims in terms of priority. She's one of those "I could be a good wife if it wasn't for my husband" people. I suspect that you're right, unless she grows up, things are heading for disaster.

And, if you're wife does the same thing this woman does, then she doesn't have any business giving her advice.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

It's all crazy.

I can't understand. My wife says she can't understand. She says she would never say no. The idea of doing anything which would contribute to a poorer mood for me is unthinkable. Running to the store to get me a six pack of beer, and delivering it while wearing her french maid uniform, then giving me a blow job while I drink one. Whatever I want.

But my wife actually cares about me. So I make sure she is taken care of properly. Because I care about her.

The idea of intentionally withholding sex is worthy of a divorce, as far as we are concerned.


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## Spitfire (Jun 6, 2015)

I went through this for years. Finally I realized it was pointless and unhealthy to go through the endless cycle of rejection and mood swings. And for what, an obese unmotivated starfish? Now I take care of somethings around the house for a bit and do what I want with no expectation or interest in sex. No amount of communication or "meeting her needs" will change things long term. The sooner you realize that the better.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I wouldn't expect anyone to have sex with me if I was grumpy! That would be just silly. How unattractive. I also wouldn't expect anyone else to take responsibility for my moods or for making me in a good mood if I wasn't. If I can't get my own moodiness under control, I wouldn't blame someone else for simply avoiding me until I do.

There was a time when I was married that I'd be horny and not getting sex (that day) and that would make me grumpy. If I tried to even hint that my husband could easily make me feel better by "giving me sex" he would simply pat me on the head and tell me to figure myself out as that wasn't his job. I can now appreciate his approach to this. At the time, I was simply being self serving and immature.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> I wouldn't expect anyone to have sex with me if I was grumpy! That would be just silly. How unattractive. I also wouldn't expect anyone else to take responsibility for my moods or for making me in a good mood if I wasn't. If I can't get my own moodiness under control, I wouldn't blame someone else for simply avoiding me until I do.
> 
> There was a time when I was married that I'd be horny and not getting sex (that day) and that would make me grumpy. If I tried to even hint that my husband could easily make me feel better by "giving me sex" he would simply pat me on the head and tell me to figure myself out as that wasn't his job. I can now appreciate his approach to this. At the time, I was simply being self serving and immature.


Why would it be silly or unattractive for your spouse to what to make you un-grumpy by pleasuring you?

I would feel very loved and understood if my spouse was to do that.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> Why would it be silly or unattractive for your spouse to what to make you un-grumpy by pleasuring you?
> 
> I would feel very loved and understood if my spouse was to do that.


No I'm saying that ME being grumpy would make ME unattractive, so I wouldn't expect my partner to want to have sex with me at that time.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I wouldn't expect anyone to have sex with me if I was grumpy! That would be just silly. How unattractive. I also wouldn't expect anyone else to take responsibility for my moods or for making me in a good mood if I wasn't. If I can't get my own moodiness under control, I wouldn't blame someone else for simply avoiding me until I do.
> 
> There was a time when I was married that I'd be horny and not getting sex (that day) and that would make me grumpy. If I tried to even hint that my husband could easily make me feel better by "giving me sex" he would simply pat me on the head and tell me to figure myself out as that wasn't his job. I can now appreciate his approach to this. At the time, I was simply being self serving and immature.


Perhaps you saw yourself as being immature, but I also find it equally as immature to AVOID someone just because their mood does not suit you.

In my marriage I have often found that it is the moments that my wife is in a bad mood, that if I have the patience to engage with her emotionally that the resulting interaction is something that drastically helps improve the wellbeing of our marriage. Problems get aired out and we actually make progress towards improving our quality of life as a couple. She however does not do the same for me as she avoids me when I am grumpy, but I wish she did not. Yes I can deal with my problems on my own. She eventually does help me but she chooses to do so once I have cooled down all on my own. 

Otherwise it is like, "uggg your in a bad mood, and I don't have the patience to deal with you right now" which is essentially like running away from an argument. *Running away from arguments is what is really immature if you ask me. *But I do admit that there are times when someone is upset and they need a moment alone to cool down. However avoiding someone for weeks on end because of this is rather cruel and immature if you ask me. 

Can sex be used to help end arguments? Not really, but opportunities for intimacy do improve once arguments have been addressed in a loving and caring way.

Badsanta


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Are you in a bad mood because of a lack of sex, or for another reason?

If your spouse has a muscle cramp, you'd probably help ease the pain by massaging it if they can't do so themselves.
If your spouse is hurting from an injury, you'd probably grab the first aid kit and help them, or take them to the emergency room.
If your spouse had a really rough day at work, you'd probably pamper them a bit to help them get over it.
In other words, as a good, loving spouse you'd help meet their need for relief.

If you are *not* the cause of the problem, then you'll probably _want_ to help them (some exceptions may apply if they've brought it on themselves).

If you *are* the cause of the problem, then you probably have a _responsibility_ to help them. (E.g., you withheld sex for some period of time without good cause, and they're grumpy directly because of it, but now you're using their mood as a further excuse to avoid sex. You're the cause of the problem, and ethically should be part of the solution. If not, then you're manipulative, selfish, and lack integrity.)


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I wouldn't expect anyone to have sex with me if I was grumpy! That would be just silly. How unattractive. I also wouldn't expect anyone else to take responsibility for my moods or for making me in a good mood if I wasn't. If I can't get my own moodiness under control, I wouldn't blame someone else for simply avoiding me until I do.
> 
> There was a time when I was married that I'd be horny and not getting sex (that day) and that would make me grumpy. If I tried to even hint that my husband could easily make me feel better by "giving me sex" he would simply pat me on the head and tell me to figure myself out as that wasn't his job. I can now appreciate his approach to this. At the time, I was simply being self serving and immature.


I agree.

When my wife is in a bad mood, the last thing I want is to get freaky with her. Completely unattractive. I can't really then expect her to feel any different.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> No I'm saying that ME being grumpy would make ME unattractive, so I wouldn't expect my partner to want to have sex with me at that time.


I'm the same way. If I'm being a grumpy ***** to my partner, I know that's on me. I don't expect him to do anything to "fix" my emotional state for me. I'm a functional adult who is in charge of her own emotional states. I calm myself, get ahold of myself, improve my mood myself. Then I'm in a frame of mind to approach my partner for an intimate connection. I'm not typically ill tempered, so it doesn't happen often, but when I'm grumpy he's never responsible for fixing my foul mood with sex. I wouldn't think I'm all that attractive when I'm in a bad mood, so I don't expect my partner to find me attractive when I am. And I certainly don't hold him responsible for coaxing me out of a bad mood. 

My ex-husband was the sort who wanted me to fix his moods with sex. Bad day at work? I needed to fix it for him. Angry with his friend/sibling/parent/the guy who cut him off in traffic? He expected sex to "make him feel better". Upset with me? Yup, I owed him sex to make up for it. Essentially, sex was the toll I was expected to pay if I didn't want to deal with an angry, sulking, man. It wasn't a dynamic that worked for me. I found an angry man, sniping and being critical - often for situations completely unrelated to me and our marriage - to be extremely unattractive. He came off as a grumpy bastard and then turned into a petulant child if I wouldn't, or even couldn't, fix it for him. The first is not sexy, the second is somehow even more not-sexy. I'm not sure whether it was the foul mood itself that was the biggest problem, or if it was that his moods were apparently always my responsibility to fix, and therefore never his to own and manage himself. 

Luckily, my SO is more like me, so our dynamic works much better for both of us. If one of us is grumpy, we ask for a hug, then go for a walk, a run, a drive, a long bath, an hour or so of reading with a glass of wine, whatever feels calming and helps us improve our own mood. Then we reconnect later. We don't bring our own yucky emotions to bed. It works for us.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

the woman is getting her jollies on withholding intimacy from her husband. That is a recipe for disaster. Very childish on her part and, as I see it, self destructive. She hates when he is grumpy, but knows how to make him 'un-grumpy', but refuses to do it. Really odd circular logic in this one.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> In my marriage I have often found that it is the moments that my wife is in a bad mood, that if I have the patience to engage with her emotionally that the resulting interaction is something that drastically helps improve the wellbeing of our marriage.
> 
> Badsanta



Bingo!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Having raised 3 girls through their teenage years I am done with managing the mood of others!

Having said that, sex always makes me feel better. When I'm kinda frustrated with Mr cranky pants the way to soothe myself is either send him out of town for a few days or have awesome sex. Both work equally well.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Perhaps you saw yourself as being immature, but I also find it equally as immature to AVOID someone just because their mood does not suit you.
> 
> In my marriage I have often found that it is the moments that my wife is in a bad mood, that if I have the patience to engage with her emotionally that the resulting interaction is something that drastically helps improve the wellbeing of our marriage. Problems get aired out and we actually make progress towards improving our quality of life as a couple. She however does not do the same for me as she avoids me when I am grumpy, but I wish she did not. Yes I can deal with my problems on my own. She eventually does help me but she chooses to do so once I have cooled down all on my own.
> 
> ...


It may be true in your examples, but in mine my ex-h never ran away from me because I was in a bad mood, he just didn't want to have sex with me at that time. Sex was never ever used in anyway to "solve" anything between us. It was only happening when it was truly for both of our pleasure and bonding. It was not used as any kind of salve or medicine. And for that reason, sex between us was always pure and sparkling.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Having raised 3 girls through their teenage years I am done with managing the mood of others!
> 
> Having said that, sex always makes me feel better. * When I'm kinda frustrated with Mr cranky pants the way to soothe myself is either send him out of town for a few days or have awesome sex.* Both work equally well.


OMG that is funny and rather well said! If I may ask, it seems as though you admit your husband might be "cranky." So when you "sooth yourself" (just mix in one cranky husband and stir vigorously), what happens to him? Does he continue being cranky or do you find yourself becoming soothed because he starts being super nice all the sudden?



Badsanta


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

For some people, having sex is a negative. They may not have much capacity to endure a negative to bring pleasure to their partner.

For some people, having sex feels good while it happens, but then emotionally / psychologically feels bad after. I like to refer to it as getting to drink a milkshake but then having to wash it down with a glass of urine. Even if they enjoy the milkshake, they might not want to do it if they know the bitter aftertaste will surely follow.

So if sex is like doing the laundry, not all that fulfilling but not all that unpleasant, then maybe that person can offer succor to their unhappy spouse on a fairly regular basis. After all, most of us find a way to do laundry every few days or once a week even if it is mostly drudgery. We recognize it is necessary drudgery. Most of us do not want to have to wear dirty underwear (deal with cranky spouse) or have to keep going to the store to buy a new pair (date and find new partner frequently).

But if sex is actively unpleasant (or triggers unpleasant feelings afterward), then I for one can see how one's spouse may not be able to bring themselves to offer it as a gift all that often. Now, if it is that unpleasant, we might reasonable ask why the person got or stays married. But that is a different issue.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> It may be true in your examples, but in mine my ex-h never ran away from me because I was in a bad mood, he just didn't want to have sex with me at that time. Sex was never ever used in anyway to "solve" anything between us. It was only happening when it was truly for both of our pleasure and bonding. *It was not used as any kind of salve or medicine.* And for that reason, sex between us was always pure and sparkling.


Let me rephrase for you...

Was the sex so awesome that when you and your ex did have issues, that sex that great motivated the two of you to exhaust all possible options and ideas before letting go? 

I'll admit that is not the same thing, but stop for a moment and imagine your and your ex husband having an issue (should be an easy one for you) and that one of you decided to begin withholding sex as a result of that issue. Of course that would likely compound problems and make both of you extremely grumpy towards one another. Would you not advocate for intimacy to help break that cycle? Even if the intimacy may not involve sex, but it would be just holding and touching each other in ways that made each other feel really good about everything again. 

Badsanta


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> Having raised 3 girls through their teenage years I am done with managing the mood of others!


I don't know what you're talking about. My teenage girls were awesome in every way. Never gave me anything but joy.:wink2:00

Of course, my wife might relay a slightly different recollection:grin2:


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

No, when you are upset go to your corners and throw dart at each other. If that doesn't work, advance to daggers, arrows, crossbow bolts and throwing spears until you obtain submission. Never submit. That is how H2's FOO worked and she has explained to me that is how life is supposed to work.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > It may be true in your examples, but in mine my ex-h never ran away from me because I was in a bad mood, he just didn't want to have sex with me at that time. Sex was never ever used in anyway to "solve" anything between us. It was only happening when it was truly for both of our pleasure and bonding. *It was not used as any kind of salve or medicine.* And for that reason, sex between us was always pure and sparkling.
> ...


We always had intimacy even if not leading to sex. So we always held and touched each other regardless of what else was going on. And yes it felt great and helped us both cope...but having sex to cope was not the same thing for us. Sex only happened for mutual enjoyment and bonding.

If one of us was grumpy, that never prevented us from touching, kissing, hugging (and also groping and grabbing and other sexy fun).


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> We always had intimacy even if not leading to sex. So we always held and touched each other regardless of what else was going on. And yes it felt great and helped us both cope...but having sex to cope was not the same thing for us. Sex only happened for mutual enjoyment and bonding.
> 
> *If one of us was grumpy, that never prevented us from touching, kissing, hugging (and also groping and grabbing and other sexy fun).*


*Thanks for sharing... perhaps that is the element I am missing. Just advocating for basic levels of intimacy and not necessarily sex. *

BUT! (there is always a but as in someone that is being a butt!)

This wife in particular claims that if she engages in any form of basic touch/hug whatsoever that her husband immediately responds by wanting sex. 

I have to admit that I too am kind of guilty of that, but it has been something that I have worked on, managed to improve, and my wife appreciates it. 

Perhaps this thread is more about me learning to appreciate that some couples struggle to give and accept basic levels of intimacy in certain situations, and that one may get very frustrated when just some basic patience is needed to explore and apply these forms of intimacy for their healing value. 

I will agree that impatience and frustration does NOT lend itself well to intimacy, _unless_ you are aiming to mess with your partner's head in a playful way that is mutually fun. ...wait a minute, I think I am suddenly onto something here now!

Badsanta

(badsanta has now left this thread to go get himself ice cream and ponder!)


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

this one is easy. Because, like Pavlov's dog, if you REWARD your partner every time they are in a bad mood...they will have lots more bad moods....just to get a reward.

They might not even realize they are reacting that way, but subconsciously you would wire their brains to react that way


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Talker67 said:


> this one is easy. Because, like *Pavlov's dog,* if you *REWARD* your partner every time they are in a bad mood...they will have lots more bad moods....just to get a reward.
> 
> They might not even realize they are reacting that way, but subconsciously you would wire their brains to react that way


According to the Dalai Lama there is no such thing as pleasure. Humans experience pleasure as an illusion. This illusion is created by temporary relief from suffering. 

Pavlov is known for using "decreasing shocks" as a positive form of stimulus for animals. The fact that a dog might salivate to the sound of a bell was the result of relieving intense hunger in association with the sound of a bell. If the food itself were rewarding, then shouldn't a dog eat nonstop if provided with unlimited food? We all know the dog only eats to end hunger and then stops. We also know that Pavlov's dog would never salivate just to try and ring the bell, and that is what you seem to be suggesting! 

If a partner is withholding sex a way to punish their partner, then "decreasing the levels of punishment" serves as the reward, NOT the sex itself.

Intimacy is about bonding and strengthening an emotional connection. It can heal a couple emotionally according to some researchers. 

Badsanta


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

badsanta said:


> OK, some friends of ours have a tough marriage because she complains that her husband is always in an ill mood. BUT we have known them long enough that when the husband is in a good mood, she giggles and says it is because she finally gave him an opportunity for sex.
> 
> So this wife will sometimes stop by for a visit and complain endlessly about her husband, his foul moods, and his unwillingness to improve certain situations. She also seems to brag about how there is no way they will be having any sex together until he shows a sign of improvement. For reference in the conversation she admitted that it had been over a month since they had last been intimate.
> 
> ...


Not all, I get this completely, the problem is many women really don't realize the need for intimacy men have in order to feel wanted, loved, admired, basically all together. Women still see sex through their own lens which is very different from the way men see sex and unfortunately use it as a weapon to make their male heel!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

aine said:


> badsanta said:
> 
> 
> > OK, some friends of ours have a tough marriage because she complains that her husband is always in an ill mood. BUT we have known them long enough that when the husband is in a good mood, she giggles and says it is because she finally gave him an opportunity for sex.
> ...


Please don't stereo type like this. Many women want more sex than their husbands want. 

If you want to say that some people withhold sex just to be jerks, ok sure. And some people want to make their spouse behave or control them through sex.

But this happens to both genders.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Well, I guess I'm the oddball out! One of the better kinds of sex is angry. Sulking on opposite sides of the couch? Start stripping. Sit naked. Then see how long you can stay mad. Just saying. It is a great mood changer. All those hormones and exercise. Plus it gives you something else to think about. No one else does this???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

aine said:


> Not all, I get this completely, the problem is many women really don't realize the need for intimacy men have in order to feel wanted, loved, admired, basically all together. Women still see sex through their own lens which is very different from the way men see sex and unfortunately use it as a weapon to make their male heel!





Faithful Wife said:


> Please don't stereo type like this.


 @Faithful Wife I don't think @aine is stereotyping as much research does indicate that male and female sexuality do NOT function based on the same model. Everyone's model of sexuality is indeed unique, and it is actually kind of fair to stereotype that most men and women do NOT fully understand each other sexually. 

Women will view sex through their own experiences. Men will view sex through their own experiences. Both can use it as a weapon to control the other, and is usually done so by the individual that does not care about sex as much. Because males do not have monthly cycles, this gender is in a constant state of production and have to be ready to procreate when the female is ovulating and receptive. "Unfortunately" this tends to tip the balance of control in the favor of women as their monthly cycles more often than not create changes in their libido (for which men do not experience).

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

crocus said:


> Well, I guess I'm the oddball out! One of the better kinds of sex is angry. Sulking on opposite sides of the couch? Start stripping. Sit naked. *Then see how long you can stay mad.* Just saying. It is a great mood changer. All those hormones and exercise. Plus it gives you something else to think about. No one else does this???


Much like the fine art of cooking without a microwave, not many people have the patience anymore. 

In church the other day there was a sermon about patience. With the advent of broadband technology, the average adult will now only allow eight seconds for something to progress. If by that time something does not work, they will give up and/or just move onto something else that reliably provides instant gratification. 

Seriously let someone ask you something or try to get you to do something, and then pause for at least eight seconds before responding. Watch what happens!

Badsanta


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> I agree.
> 
> When my wife is in a bad mood, the last thing I want is to get freaky with her. Completely unattractive. I can't really then expect her to feel any different.


I have to agree with this as well. When my W is in a bad mood, there is nothing attractive about it. This may just be a personality difference though. I rarely ever get in bad moods and am a very positive person, so being around someone in a bad mood or negative is draining, and I rather just go about my business.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

badsanta said:


> If I am in an ill mood and tell her that a hug would help, then she claims I am being needy and trying to force things that just need to happen naturally. I do actually manage to calm myself down and go to my wife claiming that I feel distant and need to reconnect, but it is almost as if she will place me in sexual quarantine for a few days to make sure I've got my sh** together and I am not being too needy.


It's hard for me to imagine that you can't ask your life partner for a hug because she would ostracize you for being too needy. I would hate to see what she'd do if you spilled some beer on the floor. Seriously, your wife's response seems very draconian and lacking in empathy.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

crocus said:


> Sulking on opposite sides of the couch? Start stripping. Sit naked. Then see how long you can stay mad.





badsanta said:


> In church the other day there was a sermon about patience. With the advent of broadband technology, the average adult will now only allow eight seconds for something to progress. If by that time something does not work, they will give up and/or just move onto something else that reliably provides instant gratification.
> 
> Badsanta


Well, if we go that route--yep, the mad isn't going to last 8 seconds. 

However, at that point my wife will certainly command my attention for a helluva lot more than 8 seconds!

And I won't be looking for _instant _gratification. I'll be trying to make that gratification last as loooooonnnnnnggggg as possible ... for both of us. :corkysm60::corkysm60:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

badsanta said:


> aine said:
> 
> 
> > Not all, I get this completely, the problem is many women really don't realize the need for intimacy men have in order to feel wanted, loved, admired, basically all together. Women still see sex through their own lens which is very different from the way men see sex and unfortunately use it as a weapon to make their male heel!
> ...


I did not say that men and women's sexuality operate on the same basis. What I said was please don't stereotype, as in "women use sex as a woman to make a man heel". This would be similar to saying "men will screw anything that moves" which is also insulting to men and not true, even if it is true for some men. Yes some women may use sex as a weapon but so do some men. When that is the case, it is not a gender issue, it is just sadistic.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I can't edit my post but meant to say "sex as a weapon" not "sex as a woman" in the post above.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Yes, you were really wrong to suggest that. It would make me VERY resentful to have sex with a man who was not trying to meet my emotional needs, which a guy is unable to do if he's usually in a bad mood. 

Would you want to show your wife affection, intimate conversation, and companionship if she was angry with you and refusing to meet your need for sex?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> Yes, you were really wrong to suggest that. It would make me VERY resentful to have sex with a man who was not trying to meet my emotional needs, which a guy is unable to do if he's usually in a bad mood.
> 
> Would you want to show your wife affection, intimate conversation, and companionship if she was angry with you and refusing to meet your need for sex?


THANKS for responding! Now I do actually agree with you that if someone is in a bad mood that it makes the opportunities of feeling intimate extremely challenging. 

Unfortunately I actually DO end up showing my wife affection, engaging her for conversation and companionship when I know she is angry at me. It is a rather uncomfortable thing to do, but THIS is what it often takes to break an ugly cycle of hurting each other.

Would you seriously be unable to be the one to do that? Does it always have to be the other person first?

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> This would be similar to saying "men will screw anything that moves" which is also insulting to men and not true, even if it is true for some men.


I'm trying to allow myself to get offended... its not working! 

As a matter of fact, I'm going to use this material later this evening to seduce my wife. She sometimes claims that I just use her since she is the only person I can have sex with being married, so I am going to tell her to STOP moving around as it just makes me want to screw her. I'm sure she will respond by wiggling her butt in my general direction and smiling rather deviously! 

Ohhhh... this will be fun!

Badsanta


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > This would be similar to saying "men will screw anything that moves" which is also insulting to men and not true, even if it is true for some men.
> ...


Excellent plan.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

On the one hand, I can understand her unwillingness to take a leadership stance when her emotional needs aren't being met. There's clearly some resentment there. 

On the other hand, I'm a firm believer that Gandhi had a point when he said, "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." 

I'm old fashioned in many respects, but if Odo and I haven't had sex in a while and /or we are having any sort of ill feeling about something between us, I don't wait for him to "man up" and fix things. I jump on him and magically things seem to improve... And he fixes many, many things I didn't even ask for.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I did not say that men and women's sexuality operate on the same basis. What I said was please don't stereotype, as in "women use sex as a woman to make a man heel".


If we go back to my original post and apply just to this couple, let me expand. The wife that was complaining about her husband commented the following, and I will try to use her words:



> Sex is just NOT important to me. I think I could go the rest of my life without ever doing it again. My husband does not seem to understand that.
> ... (much later in the conversation she was talking about her frustrations with her husband, commented about how big her boobs had gotten with a small amount of weight gain, and that her husband really liked that. So smiling and gesturing to her own boobs as if proud of them)... ohhhh my husband is NOT getting of this right now and I know how much he wants it. Not until something changes with his attitude!"


My wife has made similar gestures to me in the past, particularly in regards to sex just NOT being important to her and that she could go the rest of her life without it. So when someone does NOT care about something, it gives them power over another person. A LOT of power the more they do not care about it. 

Now in my marriage I have communicated very clearly to my wife what intimacy means to me as well as how important and valuable it is. I have told her that if I have to go prolong periods without it during moments I know she is just withholding to punish me for whatever reason, that I actually start caring less about my own wife and it is extremely painful for me to experience that. This happens because the love and attention that I would normally direct at her has to be rechanneled to myself to help me overcome whatever anxiety that I am struggling with and away from her in such a way that leaves me feeling not only disconnected but rather uncaring towards her. She now gets it and things have drastically changed. I see her making efforts and that help me to direct all my energy towards improving our relationship as opposed to just trying to calm myself down. 

While it is NOT good to say that women would stereotypically use sex as a weapon to make men heel, this case is about the wife not caring and trying to use sex as a way to gain more control over her own marriage. From the outside looking in, I can actually see that she is trying to do it in a loving way to try an motivate her husband to make some better life decisions for her family. However I strongly disagree with this. Seeing sexuality from the male point of view (he is much like me in this regard and I know from hearing her describe him) as he will have a much more positive wellbeing and strength to be a better father if she advocates for more and better intimacy between them. But like I said, when I mentioned that it was as if I hit a huge nerve and made her extremely upset.

Understanding this marriage also helps me to appreciate my own, as there are so many parallels, but I am in a much better place at the moment. 

Badsanta


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Bad Santa, I would also be upset if my partner was withholding in the way you describe. With an attitude of "I know you want this cookie but you can't have it until you've behaved to my satisfaction". That would turn me off immediately.

But when I answered originally I was just speaking of my partner not wanting to have sex with me if I was in a foul mood, because I wouldn't be very attractive in a foul mood so I wouldn't expect him to feel sexy towards me.

These are two different things. The withholding with a "nyah nyah" attitude is something I'd never tolerate.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Bad Santa, I would also be upset if my partner was withholding in the way you describe. With an attitude of "I know you want this cookie but you can't have it until you've behaved to my satisfaction". That would turn me off immediately.
> 
> But when I answered originally I was just speaking of my partner not wanting to have sex with me if I was in a foul mood, because I wouldn't be very attractive in a foul mood so I wouldn't expect him to feel sexy towards me.
> 
> These are two different things. The withholding with a "nyah nyah" attitude is something I'd never tolerate.


Completely agree!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

badsanta said:


> According to the Dalai Lama there is no such thing as pleasure. Humans experience pleasure as an illusion. This illusion is created by temporary relief from suffering.
> 
> Pavlov is known for using "decreasing shocks" as a positive form of stimulus for animals. The fact that a dog might salivate to the sound of a bell was the result of relieving intense hunger in association with the sound of a bell. *If the food itself were rewarding, then shouldn't a dog eat nonstop if provided with unlimited food? We all know the dog only eats to end hunger and then stops.* We also know that Pavlov's dog would never salivate just to try and ring the bell, and that is what you seem to be suggesting!
> 
> ...


Dogs are descended from wolves who never knew when they would get their next meal so they gorged when the food was available. So, yeah, most dogs will eat & eat & eat which is why free-feeding dogs is ill advised.

Some spouses will recognize that their mate's mood might benefit from a little lovin' and take them by the hand. Some spouses fear that the mate is manipulating them. Some spouses do not want to set a precedent for future behavior. It is no one-size fits all. Totally dependent on the two people involved.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

One thing to add as well, and this of course will depend on each person. There are those who will think that if you try pushing for sex when they are in a bad mood, it is simply b/c you are using them for sex and nothing else. Proceed with caution ...


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

badsanta said:


> THANKS for responding! Now I do actually agree with you that if someone is in a bad mood that it makes the opportunities of feeling intimate extremely challenging.
> 
> Unfortunately I actually DO end up showing my wife affection, engaging her for conversation and companionship when I know she is angry at me. It is a rather uncomfortable thing to do, but THIS is what it often takes to break an ugly cycle of hurting each other.
> 
> ...


For many women to desire sex, they need an atmosphere of emotional intimacy, including affection, conversation, and companionship. If a woman repeatedly has sex without desire, she's performing out of "duty." Do this often enough, and it can create an aversion, where sex is not only unwanted, it becomes something you want to avoid at all costs. Not good for the marriage, obviously.

So, yes, while many women are able to have sex out of duty to their husbands, their husbands need to ask if it is worth the possibility of their spouse developing an aversion. It seems much easier (and better for the marriage) IMO for a husband who feels desire to help create that desire for his wife by meeting her emotional needs.

My husband is able to meet my needs when I'm upset with him. It is one of the most attractive things about him because if the situation is reversed, it feels impossible to me. That said, my husband is rarely ever in a bad mood, so I desire him often


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Whatever happened to a good, old fashioned, hate ****? Partner in a foul mood sex would improve? You sick of it? Have passionate, down and dirty, hate sex. Problem solved.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I believe the OP's issue was not just withholding when her H was in a bad mood. I think she probably withheld plenty even when he was in a good mood. She isn't into her husband sexually. Might not be into sex at all, or maybe just not with him. Sorry to hear about another man in a boat in my flotilla.

A person who doesn't like to have sex with their spouse in general is only going to be more resistant to the idea of sex when their spouse is in a bad mood.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> For many women to desire sex, they need an atmosphere of emotional intimacy, including affection, conversation, and companionship. If a woman repeatedly has sex without desire, she's performing out of "duty." Do this often enough, and it can create an aversion, where sex is not only unwanted, it becomes something you want to avoid at all costs. Not good for the marriage, obviously.
> 
> So, yes, while many women are able to have sex out of duty to their husbands, their husbands need to ask if it is worth the possibility of their spouse developing an aversion. It seems much easier (and better for the marriage) IMO for a husband who feels desire to help create that desire for his wife by meeting her emotional needs.
> 
> My husband is able to meet my needs when I'm upset with him. It is one of the most attractive things about him because if the situation is reversed, it feels impossible to me. That said, my husband is rarely ever in a bad mood, so I desire him often


Thanks for sharing!

I guess if I were to give advice to this couple it would be equally about the husband really having to make an effort to stay positive about things and for the wife to perhaps try and be a little more forgiving. Then hopefully everything else might naturally improve along with that. 

This wife in particular does brag that when her husband is making a positive difference for the family that she is very attracted and proud of him. Everything else seems to go well too which then will have the husband in a super good mood. 

It just really makes me sad to see a loving couple hurting one another so much. They have been married for over twenty years and have teenage kids just like in my own marriage. 

When it comes to advocating for intimacy to heal and improve the wellbeing of a marriage, I completely understand that is NOT something that one can subject themselves to repeatedly. I do however think it is a viable solution for every once in a blue moon so to speak to try and help just reset everything so that a couple can forgive and try to work together as opposed to hurting each other. 

Badsanta


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Have not read all the posts on the thread, but I agree that it is helpful to do whatever you reasonably can to make your spouse happy. 

I have had sex many times when I was not particularly in the mood. My husband does not need any particular kind of atmosphere to enjoy sex, so it is not like it has ever required much from me. And yet it makes him very happy every time. 

Why would I not avail myself of that deposit into his emotional bank account? Especially when it is going to benefit me in other ways?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

jld said:


> Have not read all the posts on the thread, but I agree that it is helpful to do whatever you reasonably can to make your spouse happy.
> 
> I have had sex many times when I was not particularly in the mood. My husband does not need any particular kind of atmosphere to enjoy sex, so it is not like it has ever required much from me. And yet it makes him very happy every time.
> 
> Why would I not avail myself of that deposit into his emotional bank account? Especially when it is going to benefit me in other ways?


Thanks @jld 

I think you are perhaps one of the few that can clearly associate the positive impact that advocating for intimacy can have on a relationship even when you might not be in the mood. Meanwhile others seem to warn that this can cause one to feel "used" over time, but I personally believe those negative feelings are the result of some people having low self esteem and feeling unworthy of the fact that their partners want to feel connected with them both emotionally AND physically. Ultimately negative feelings do need to be recognized and dealt with in a marriage as ignoring them will cause damage. 

What is it about Doug (if you don't mind sharing) that helps you still feel loved, even during moments of intimacy when you may not exactly feel in the mood? Would you attribute that in anyway to positive self esteem?

For a guy (perhaps women too, but I am a guy here!) it is extremely difficult to feel emotionally close to someone if you are repeatedly being pushed away physically. 

Badsanta


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

I don't even understand the concept of feeling "used" for sex by your spouse, assuming there aren't major issues like addiction, abuse, or adultery. 

Then again, maybe I'm weird. Like, I believe in "medicinal sex". I have a tension headache? Sex cures it in short order. DH feeling blah and having a hard time waking up for work? A BJ works far faster and better than Motrin and caffeine.

There's far to many physical, psychological, and relationship benefits from sex to be stingy with it.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

badsanta said:


> Thanks for sharing!
> 
> I guess if I were to give advice to this couple it would be equally about the husband really having to make an effort to stay positive about things and for the wife to perhaps try and be a little more forgiving. Then hopefully everything else might naturally improve along with that.
> 
> ...


Oh, I hear you. As we are entering the 15-year mark we are definitely seeing couples around us struggle with the hurt in the marriage, and once the intimacy falls off, it seems everything else is very hard to fix. And by intimacy, I mean the top 4 intimate emotional needs we turn to our spouse to meet: intimate conversation, affection, sex, and recreational companionship. If those 4 are going strong, couples are more likely to be in love, which of course goes a long way in wanting to meet our partner's needs, even when we are not in the mood. 

I wish more people understood this. That's why I recommend His Needs, Her Needs ALL the time. I've heard Dr. Harley say that he can help a couple who has never even been in love (arranged marriages, settling in later years, etc.) by getting them to meet these 4 intimate needs by spending 15 hours a week together, and they often will fall in love. Pretty amazing to me. 

I have a close friend who has hit the 15 yr mark too and they haven't had sex in years. They are miserable together, irritable with each other, and she's hurt because he doesn't talk to her or ask her about her day/work, and he's not motivated to show her care because he isn't gettting his needs met either. They are at a standstill. She said she thinks they are just incompatible and never were in love. She's reading the book now and says it's a game-changer.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Thanks @jld
> 
> I think you are perhaps one of the few that can clearly associate the positive impact that advocating for intimacy can have on a relationship even when you might not be in the mood. Meanwhile others seem to warn that this can cause one to feel "used" over time, but I personally believe those negative feelings are the result of some people having low self esteem and feeling unworthy of the fact that their partners want to feel connected with them both emotionally AND physically. Ultimately negative feelings do need to be recognized and dealt with in a marriage as ignoring them will cause damage.
> 
> ...


He listens to me, nurtures me, is patient and kind and gentle with me. He sacrifices for me. He never says I have to be a certain way, or feel a certain thing, or do anything other than what I feel inspiration for in that moment. 

I also like sex. I don't need the lights off, dinner out first, etc. If I am feeling emotionally close to him, I am pretty much ready to go physically. Emotional alignment leads to physical alignment for me.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> I don't even understand the concept of feeling "used" for sex by your spouse, assuming there aren't major issues like addiction, abuse, or adultery.
> 
> Then again, maybe I'm weird. Like, I believe in "medicinal sex". I have a tension headache? Sex cures it in short order. DH feeling blah and having a hard time waking up for work? A BJ works far faster and better than Motrin and caffeine.
> 
> There's far to many physical, psychological, and relationship benefits from sex to be stingy with it.


Awesome attitude!!!>


simple and effective!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> One thing to add as well, and this of course will depend on each person. There are those who will think that if you try pushing for sex when they are in a bad mood, it is simply b/c you are using them for sex and nothing else. Proceed with caution ...


 @EllisRedding to clarify this is not about someone pushing the other for sex even if they are in a bad mood. 

This would be an LD spouse advocating for intimacy as a way to improve the mood of the other spouse, particularly when the other spouse's mood improves as a result of sex. 

No one is pushing anyone except for perhaps the LD pushing themselves to try and make a positive difference in the relationship. I know that may sound extremely counter intuitive for those of us that have experienced a toxic HD/LD situation. 

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> I don't even understand the concept of feeling "used" for sex by your spouse, assuming there aren't major issues like addiction, abuse, or adultery.
> 
> Then again, maybe I'm weird. Like, I believe in "medicinal sex". I have a tension headache? Sex cures it in short order. DH feeling blah and having a hard time waking up for work? A BJ works far faster and better than Motrin and caffeine.
> 
> There's far to many physical, psychological, and relationship benefits from sex to be stingy with it.


I'd almost want to start a poll to see how many folks use sex as a "cure all" for almost any ailment. 

Badsanta


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

badsanta said:


> I'd almost want to start a poll to see how many folks use sex as a "cure all" for almost any ailment.
> 
> Badsanta


You totally should! 

Sex is also great preventative medicine. Doc specifically said we humans need a minimum 20 minutes cardio per day to maintain heart health. >

Not to mention what sex does for muscle tone, skin, and hair. All those sex related chemicals have so many benefits.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Well our friends are back home and still grouchy towards one another. 

As much as I would want to help them, so many things have been said in confidence that I just can't come right out and discuss them with the other husband. I also want to try and help these people but realize that I would probably only make things worse by trying. The best that I could probably do is just open up about myself and demonstrate a few things by example.

The other night we were all at church together for an event that was being hosted by the church for something fun for the kids. I was talking to them and illustrated one of my old problems of sometimes really needing a hug and my wife flat out refusing to give me one. The other wife jumped right in criticizing me and laughing, "but it is never JUST a hug that you want!" ...and she fell right were I wanted her and she started criticizing me right next to her husband. I made it a point to poke fun at myself and had them both laughing. But when I got to the end of my story of how my wife more often than not now wants "hugs" from me before I even have to ask for them... well they were not laughing at me anymore. I went into detail about many things about my own wife that I had struggled to appreciate before when we were having our own problems and that I had underestimated some small things that add up and create big problems.

One of their problems was something that the other wife talks about all the time at our house (when her husband is not around), and I am very guilty of the same thing. So I highlighted that issue about myself and poked fun at myself for having that problem. Then I looked at the other guy and said you know we are probably a lot alike in that regard. He refused to believe it, and his wife chimed in "oh yes you are!" He was in total disbelief, but instead of giving him a hard time about that part of his personality, I tried to talk about some of the positive things that personality trait can also lead to, but as if I was bragging about how awesome I am as a person with a huge smile.

I feel like I cracked the door open on their problems in a way that hopefully they will start communicating better. If they need to have a laugh at my expense as a way to open up better with one another, I don't mind that at all.

Badsanta


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## OldManMage (Jun 6, 2017)

@badsanta you sound like a very emotionally mature person and a good friend.

When I get in a foul mood because something set me off my wife has a great way of giggling at me that instantly deflates the problem. For years I was on a muscle relaxant that caused me to have instant mood swings if something wasn't going the way I wanted. I found that if she tries to help by seducing me I feel manipulated, but somehow laughing in my face worked every time. But that's just us. Every relationship is different.

When my wife is in a foul mood I usually avoid her for a bit and then talk to her about it later. I still haven't figured out her instant diffuse valve.

On another note I've never had much patience for anyone willing to criticize their spouse, in front of them or not. There's complaining, then there's constantly criticizing. Personally I feel sorry for him and don't know if they have a future if she can't respect him. And to be clear, I'm not trying to say she's the cause of all their problems. If she can't respect him there might be something on his side causing that lack of respect.

I don't care if my wife is completely ticking me off, I don't go criticize her to anyone, especially anyone who knows us both. I have more respect for her than that. People who constantly wife bash or husband bash get no respect from me.

But I do agree on one thing, withholding sex as an emotional weapon is a recipe for disaster, by either party in a marriage.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

OldManMage said:


> @badsanta you sound like a very emotionally mature person and a good friend.
> 
> When I get in a foul mood because something set me off my wife has a great way of giggling at me that instantly deflates the problem. For years I was on a muscle relaxant that caused me to have instant mood swings if something wasn't going the way I wanted. I found that if she tries to help by seducing me I feel manipulated, but somehow laughing in my face worked every time. But that's just us. Every relationship is different.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that feedback! I always hear her criticizing him, but he never criticizes her to other friends and family (yet I know from her that he is extremely critical of her in private). 

I know she and my wife are kind of each other's emotional support and this criticism is probably only shared with my wife. I do think it is healthy to have friends that you can vent as a way to try and let go of frustrations. But at the same time, you also have to listen to yourself and ask if there is anything positive that can be said!

Cheers, 
Badsanta

PS: I also know what you are talking about in terms of doing something that can instantly deescalate an argument. For me and my wife, I will usually look at her and ask if she needs more time to continue being upset with me while I make stupid puppy-dog eyes. It does not always work, but it does validate that I know she is upset with me which tends to help.


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## OldManMage (Jun 6, 2017)

@badsanta maybe you should anonymously give them two copies of _his needs, her needs_.  It sounds like they could both use some education in relationships.

Somehow I'd gotten the impression that she was criticizing her husband at the party but just went back and reread your post and see I was wrong. That's good. It's different to have someone you can confide in versus complaining to anyone who walks past. Although she really still shouldn't do it in front of you, especially if you're friends with her husband.

In our own marriage I think in over 25 years I could count on my fingers the number of times my wife and I have been genuinely mad at each other (or one at the other.) We do get frustrated at times, but really I wonder why it's so easy for us to not fight when I see and read about all the other couples that struggle. Probably because we went into the relationship without even considering the possibility it wouldn't work.

I don't think I've ever had angry sex, simply because I've never been angry that long. 0

I do remember one time probably a year after we got married where we were arguing over something - I don't even remember what - and had company coming to dinner. I left to go get ice cream for dessert and when I got home she'd locked the door. I threw the ice cream at the door in anger and stomped back to the car, and just as I opened the car door she opened the house door and apologized. It's the only fight we've ever had that stuck in my head and I can't even remember what it was about, only the ice cream. lol. It was vanilla.


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