# Emotional affair



## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Things have been generally rocky in my marriage for a few years. We've been to 2 marriage counselors, but neither has been very helpful, mostly because I don't think they are willing or able to address some of the fundamental problems in our relationship... 

Anyway, Things have actually been a bit better in the last few months, mainly because we both realize how much we have to loose (my wife in terms of her lifestyle, and me because much as I'd love to, I probably wouldn't win custody of the kids and can't quite face the idea of not seeing them every single day. 

A couple of weeks ago, my wife went away to visit her family (a 1 week visit), and she was also looking forward to meeting up with an old (male) friend of hers who got divorced a year or so ago. 

This friend picked her up from the airport and they spent the morning and afternoon together before driving her back to her parents place where she was staying. They went out to a bar a couple nights later (which she didn't tell me about - I found out from a Facebook comment about it) and then the following night went to the movies and to a bar (which she did tell me about). He also took her to the airport before she flew home, but I only learnt afterwards that they'd also spent the morning together going to a farmers market or something. I subsequently saw from our cell phone logs (we're on a family plan) that when she was back home and waiting at the airport for her ride, she spent 30 mins talking on the phone to this guy.

She spends all of her evenings engaged in multiple chat conversations with her sisters and friends (this being one of the fundamental problems mentioned above!), but since she's been back, just from glimpses at her phone and computer, I know she's been having IM / text conversations with him too (pretty much every single day since she got home). We're west coast and he's east coast, and sometimes they'll be chatting until close to 2am his time. 

And maybe it's my imagination, but she also seems much more conscious about making sure I cant's see what's on her screen if we're sitting near each other on the sofa. 

She's also changed her password on her computer and the other night, while it was still on, I saw that she'd deleted the chat thread with this guy (but not her other chat threads). 

I feel a bit bad because I've been sneaky (trying to see who she's chatting to, noticing her password has changed, looking at call logs etc...). And obviously if she was ONLY chatting to him and not doing anything else, it would be easier to call her out on it, but either way, she's now spending far more time chatting to him than she does to me... So my questions are -

1) On a scale of 1-10, how worried should I be about her 'friendship' with this guy (I'm currently at an 8 - don't know if I'm over-reacting or under reacting). Does this qualify as an emotional affair?
2) What should I do next? I feel regardless of how I word things, if I confront her in any way she'll do one of, if not both of the following - a) full denial b) be completely outraged by my paranoia and sneaky behavior.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

100. I, personally, would not live this way. She is definitely emotionally involved and lying and cheating. I don't think the fake marriage is worth it for the kids. Usually, kids end up worse off living with two parents that don't love each other and end up mad at you for staying there just for them.

You only live once. Don't live like this.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Don't be lulled into a false sense of security because he's on a different coast. If she visits her family again while she is still involved, they'll hook up. And, you don't really know if they did already.


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## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

So basically she goes to the East Coast and spends most of the week going on dates with another man.???? Followed by the behavior you have just posted??? And you are feeling sneaky for trying to find out what is going on?? And to top it all off she has already not disclosed to you how many times she was ALONE with him.

My friend, your question needs to be revised. An emotional affair may be the least of your worries.

Google "signs your wife if cheating". locking and guarding the phone, changing passwords will appear right at the top of the list.

You need a VAR in her car, and you will know what she is on the phone with him saying in less than a week.

The big question here is what do you do about it. Play ostrich, stay in denial and tell her the **** stop now.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

They could well have had sex.

You really should think about STD tests.

After all, if he will batten on to one married woman, he's capable of battening on to many others, too.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
On a scale from 1 -10 at what point would you say your W is regarding dating another man? Her reason for staying is to keep her lifestyle? And yours is the children? I regret to inform you that this marriage has already all but ended, it is now a mere convenience. The real question is what are you willing to tolerate for the ability to see your children daily. I fear that your reality is that you are keeping your W in a manner to which she has become accustomed while the OM is handling the romantic/sexual aspect of the relationship. Do you find this acceptable?

You also mentioned feeling guilty for being "sneaky". What do you call going out with another man and not telling your H? Your thinking is skewed and illogical and you need to reevaluate your position and your approach , unless of course, you are willing to continue with the arrangement as is. If you are then I fail to see the need to come here and ask advice.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> On a scale from 1 -10 at what point would you say your W is regarding dating another man? Her reason for staying is to keep her lifestyle? And yours is the children? I regret to inform you that this marriage has already all but ended, it is now a mere convenience. The real question is what are you willing to tolerate for the ability to see your children daily. I fear that your reality is that you are keeping your W in a manner to which she has become accustomed while the OM is handling the romantic/sexual aspect of the relationship. Do you find this acceptable?
> 
> You also mentioned feeling guilty for being "sneaky". What do you call going out with another man and not telling your H? Your thinking is skewed and illogical and you need to reevaluate your position and your approach , unless of course, you are willing to continue with the arrangement as is. If you are then I fail to see the need to come here and ask advice.


Well said.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

I don't really care that she only told me about one of the two nights they went out together. It's a small detail on it's own, just obviously part of the bigger issue (i.e. individually changing password on computer would have been odd, but in context of everything else, it's obviously dodgy. I know many many people (men and women) have felt this way and been wrong, but I'm not sure she'd actually physically cheat on my because it would put her in a much worse position if we got divorced. And you can't divorce on the grounds of an emotional affair. 

Re my marriage - yes I'm more than aware that things are not ideal and our reasons for staying together are not great. I'm also aware that if we get divorced, much as I'd actually like custody (and it would be better for our kids) it probably won't happen, so I'll end up seeing my kids once or twice a week, and paying her 60% of my salary, and 60% of her debts. At the moment trying to stay together as peacefully as possible. We don't argue infront of the kids, so I don't think we're quite at the stage of kids being happier when apart. 

Re a VAR in the car... I can see call logs - I guess they could be facetiming, but most of the chats are on IM and I have no way of seeing these. I have of course thought about it. Even just logging into her account would trigger her to get an email about a log in from a new device.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> On a scale from 1 -10 at what point would you say your W is regarding dating another man? *Her reason for staying is to keep her lifestyle? And yours is the children*? I regret to inform you that this marriage has already all but ended, it is now a mere convenience. The real question is what are you willing to tolerate for the ability to see your children daily. I fear that your reality is that you are keeping your W in a manner to which she has become accustomed while the OM is handling the romantic/sexual aspect of the relationship. Do you find this acceptable?
> 
> You also mentioned feeling guilty for being "sneaky". What do you call going out with another man and not telling your H? Your thinking is skewed and illogical and you need to reevaluate your position and your approach , unless of course, you are willing to continue with the arrangement as is. If you are then I fail to see the need to come here and ask advice.



Maybe the bit in bold is too glib - but as for what I'm willing to do to carry on seeing my kids daily (and be a good influence on them). Obviously if my wife was having a physical affair, it's game over. If we can continue with a form of 'peace' so that we can do what's in the best interests of our kids while they're still little, then I'm willing to sacrifice some degree of relationship happiness for this, even if I know this isn't a long term solution. It is the lesser of two evils. But of course if she continues having this thing with her friend - even if it's not physical, then something needs to change. I for sure know she'd be pissed at me if the reverse behavior was happening.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Your wife has a boyfriend. You're making excuses to stay. You are also affraid of her. Don't worry about making her mad or pushing her away she's already gone.

Your weak and passive manner could be why.

Read up
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE..._Guy.pdf/RK=0/RS=Y__drL8rVUhLcE4molaV9N.d8lY-


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> Your wife has a boyfriend. You're making excuses to stay. You are also affraid of her. Don't worry about making her mad or pushing her away she's already gone.
> 
> Your weak and passive manner could be why.
> 
> ...


Just wondering - do you have kids?

What I've actually realized is that the situation has little to do with my manner, and more to do with my wife's mental state (combination of ADD, OCD and anxiety). 

I read NMMNG but most of it didn't resonate. Thougth it was poorly written, and a bit like Deepak Chopra on steroids. But maybe I need to read it again.


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## Mr.StrongMan (Feb 10, 2016)

To add to the OP's question, does there come a point in a marriage that the husband should no longer care if his W is still having the emotional affair because it's gone way past that in that

1. She does not allow his access to her phone or emails
2. She still works with the guy
3. She denies him any sex
4. She say she does not love him

In other words, does the time come when the marriage is so dead that it's beyond trying to find out if an emotional affair is even going on anymore?


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Mr.StrongMan said:


> To add to the OP's question, does there come a point in a marriage that the husband should no longer care if his W is still having the emotional affair because it's gone way past that in that
> 
> 1. She does not allow his access to her phone or emails
> 2. She still works with the guy
> ...


That's an interesting question. I think it would still matter because even an emotional affair would show just such an utter lack of respect. But I really don't see how any marriage could survive either of 3. or 4. above, let alone both of them. For what it's worth, my wife still says she loves me, and we do still have sex. 

I think accessing your partner's phones and emails is a tricky matter. I wouldn't particularly want my wife looking over what I post in here, or some of my emails to my family talking about my situation. Ideally in a relationship there is an element of trust that means people don't care about what is on their partner's devices regardless of whether or not they have the password.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Left arm optimistic said:


> Just wondering - do you have kids?
> 
> What I've actually realized is that the situation has little to do with my manner, and more to do with my wife's mental state (combination of ADD, OCD and anxiety).
> 
> I read NMMNG but most of it didn't resonate. Thougth it was poorly written, and a bit like Deepak Chopra on steroids. But maybe I need to read it again.


Yep three, if you want a life you're going to have to figure a way out or how to fix this. You can't make her do anything or fix her. She'd have to do that. You can only work on yourself.

I think you know what's going on. No way to live is it?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Left arm optimistic said:


> That's an interesting question. I think it would still matter because even an emotional affair would show just such an utter lack of respect. But I really don't see how any marriage could survive either of 3. or 4. above, let alone both of them. For what it's worth, my wife still says she loves me, and we do still have sex.
> 
> I think accessing your partner's phones and emails is a tricky matter. I wouldn't particularly want my wife looking over what I post in here, or some of my emails to my family talking about my situation. Ideally in a relationship there is an element of trust that means people don't care about what is on their partner's devices regardless of whether or not they have the password.


Ignorance is bliss until it isn't. Gut instincts are rarely wrong. What's yours telling you?


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Why are you here? You're searching for what?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I once knew a cerebral humanoid that had a 50 gallon termite terrarium. The termite colony and many of its tunnels could be viewed from the side. The Queens chamber was readily visible. The Queen mated only with one male, rightly called the King. He was roughly one twentieth her size. 

The fat Queen stroked and cavorted with many of the other male ants. But none delivered their seed into her.

One day an aggressive male termite climbed atop her and started pumping away. The Queen stroked the interloper gently. 

The King termite did his best to stop this infidelity but could not stop the pumping play..

The cerebral humanoid came to the Kings rescue. He broke the terrarium with a hammer, plucked the interloper off the Queen and squashed him.

He shoveled up the broken glass and the scattered moist soil and discarded all in the rubbish bin. 

Humanoid's trust had been broken, his fair play boundaries crossed. The infidels deed exceeded the sunk cost of the terrarium. Peace of mind for this cerebral chap...stick over-weighed a broken terrarium home.

He threw in the towel and moved into another flat.......life.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> Ignorance is bliss until it isn't. Gut instincts are rarely wrong. What's yours telling you?


I think the accuracy of gut instinct is horribly influenced by confirmation bias, but in this case I believe my gut instinct, as with the interpretation of most on here, is correct. I guess that was why I was here - a bit of a sanity check to make sure my gut instinct isn't plausibly way off on this one.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

When a spouse turns her attention to another then the unique bond has ended. I'm a black and white guy in some respects; a mate seeking attention from another is adequate information for me.

Take a step back and then tell me how your POSW's behavior isn't completely disrespectful 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Given that they just spent a week together, you've likely got more than an emotional affair on your hands.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You are allowing your wife to date this man.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

She'll find reasons to visit her family more often.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

TheTruthHurts said:


> When a spouse turns her attention to another then the unique bond has ended. I'm a black and white guy in some respects; a mate seeking attention from another is adequate information for me.
> 
> Take a step back and then tell me how your POSW's behavior isn't completely disrespectful
> 
> ...


oh, I don't need to take a step back - 100% it's disrespectful. In some ways it's not different to fact that she's on her devices all the time talking to friends (which I believe is partly her ADD and partly to relive anxiety)... but the fact that this is a guy and she's being shifty about it obviously makes it worse


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Given that they just spent a week together, you've likely got more than an emotional affair on your hands.


On the basis of the info I gave, it's illogical to imply that chances of it being physical are higher than 50%.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> You are allowing your wife to date this man.


By date you mean speak on IM? Obviously I couldn't allow or not allow her contact with him while she was away, as she only told me afterwards. If I go back to my home town, do I have to get permission from my wife to go out with an old friend if she happens to be single?


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Malaise said:


> She'll find reasons to visit her family more often.


Ha! maybe you're right. Although she won't be going without the kids any time soon, and my in laws straight up refuse to babysit, so opportunities (to meet up with him) will be limited. Plus I'm the only income earner and she's had her trip east already this year. If she wants to see her family, and they want to see her, they can come out here!


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

left arm optimistic said:


> on the basis of the info i gave, it's illogical to imply that chances of it being physical are higher than 50%.


lol... Ok.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Left arm optimistic said:


> By date you mean speak on IM? Obviously I couldn't allow or not allow her contact with him while she was away, as she only told me afterwards. If I go back to my home town, do I have to get permission from my wife to go out with an old friend if she happens to be single?


Many here would say yes, that a friend of the other sex is not good for the marriage.

I would have no problem but I believe I'm in the minority.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Left arm optimistic said:


> I think the accuracy of gut instinct is horribly influenced by confirmation bias, but in this case I believe my gut instinct, as with the interpretation of most on here, is correct. I guess that was why I was here - a bit of a sanity check to make sure my gut instinct isn't plausibly way off on this one.


*Gut instinct, IMHO, is nothing more than a sheer gift from God!

If you take time to read my old, old story, after I was "expelled" from our home in 2011, I didn't have the first damned clue that my RSXW had been cheating on me with two men from her past, even while we were living/sleeping together!

For some 6-8 months following separation, I held out hope for us until I got an email from her saying that there would be no reconciliation!

A check of two years worth of cell phone records in our family account indicated otherwise! Then a detective friend examined her social media and that literally blew the lid off of things! She was traveling the roadways on her "legitimate" business trips to these OM's locales to hump them, then was coming back home to offer me sloppy seconds!

In your case, I think that you had better examine any and all of her other social media accounts, because what you've just uncovered could possibly be just the proverbial tip of the iceberg!

I had no kids involved with this skank of a woman, thank God, but I know all too well from my first D exactly what your fears are telling you!

Infidelity, albeit a PA or an EA, especially with the presence of young kids is always tough to digest! I would heartily recommend a visit to a good "piranha" family attorney to advise you of both your paternal and property rights, all while discreetly continuing your private investigation of your W! On your way over there, please get checked out by your MD to see if there is any presence of any kind of an STD that may have been passed on to you!

Sorry to see you here at TAM, but it is the best place in the world to come and to seek counsel from the good folks here who have preeminently lived this recurring nightmare!*


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Left arm optimistic said:


> Things have been generally rocky in my marriage for a few years. We've been to 2 marriage counselors, but neither has been very helpful, mostly because I don't think they are willing or able to address some of the fundamental problems in our relationship...
> 
> Anyway, Things have actually been a bit better in the last few months, mainly because we both realize how much we have to loose (my wife in terms of her lifestyle, and me because much as I'd love to, I probably wouldn't win custody of the kids and can't quite face the idea of not seeing them every single day.
> 
> ...


It was a VERY bad idea for her to meet up with this man on her own on what were in effect dates. Yes you should be very worried. Its hard to say if its just emotional, they may well have kissed etc if nothing else. However she is playing with fire. Yes she will deny it and lie. Yes she will be outraged and will blame you for being jealous and suspicious when he is 'just a friend.' However if you want to save your marriage what alternative is there?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> You are allowing your wife to date this man.


Absolutely. I believe in good sensible boundaries with the opposite sex. Meeting an old opposite sex friend alone for 3 or 4 dates is a really bad idea.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Left arm optimistic said:


> Ha! maybe you're right. Although she won't be going without the kids any time soon, and my in laws straight up refuse to babysit, so opportunities (to meet up with him) will be limited. Plus I'm the only income earner and she's had her trip east already this year. If she wants to see her family, and they want to see her, they can come out here!


You'd be surprised at how ingenious people can be in these situations. You're like most in these situations. You want to believe it's not really what it is but........


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Left arm optimistic said:


> On the basis of the info I gave, it's illogical to imply that chances of it being physical are higher than 50%.


Why did you come here and ask questions of people with years of inexperience with infidelity if you're going to scoff at that experience and rely on your own ignorance and inexperience?

Here's a suggestion for you: spend a little time reading the coping with infidelity section here and the wayward section at love shack. It won't take long to start picking out the recurring patterns of cheating.



Left arm optimistic said:


> By date you mean speak on IM? Obviously I couldn't allow or not allow her contact with him while she was away, as she only told me afterwards. If I go back to my home town, do I have to get permission from my wife to go out with an old friend if she happens to be single?


Yes, you do. If you were in a super strong marriage you might not need that depending on what boundaries you and your spouse have agreed to but you're not in a super strong marriage, are you? 

You need to be preparing yourself for divorce. I'm not suggesting you should actually divorce, but you need a consultation with a mens rights lawyer to get the real information for your area about what you would be facing and whether proof of infidelity would make any difference. You can't rely on reading the statutes or whatever, you need to talk to someone that is experienced with dealing with your local judges.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Nucking Futs said:


> Why did you come here and ask questions of people with years of inexperience with infidelity if you're going to scoff at that experience and rely on your own ignorance and inexperience?
> 
> Here's a suggestion for you: spend a little time reading the coping with infidelity section here and the wayward section at love shack. It won't take long to start picking out the recurring patterns of cheating.
> 
> ...


I'm really not scoffing, but I'm someone who works with data and analytics, including understanding and predicting human behavior. Of course there is a chance that the relationship is already physical, but there's nothing I said that suggests it's likely rather than just possible. Maybe it's just semantics (likely vs. possible), and I don't want that to distract from the situation. 

I've already met with a divorce lawyer even before this latest **** hit the fan, although maybe I need to do so again given what may be going on. Unfortunately emotional affair can't be grounds for divorce, yet it's not like I want things to progress so that it does become physical, and I do appreciate that this is the logical route that this sort of thing takes, whether it's in 3 months, 6 months or even has possibly happened already. 

One of my original questions was how to best talk about this, bring it up with my wife, when I know that she'll just be outraged, deny, attack etc.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> You'd be surprised at how ingenious people can be in these situations. You're like most in these situations. You want to believe it's not really what it is but........


Yeah, unfortunately I have enough experience - from my father's infidelity to my college girlfriend's infidelity to understand how sneaky ingenious and outright dishonest people can be. 

Given everything that's happened the last 2 years (a completely one sided marriage and my wife more interested spending her evenings texting her female friends let alone this guy) I'd accept my marriage as being over, but I don't want to end up in a situation where I'm broke / living somewhere awful because of the amount I have to give my wife and kids (I spoke to a lawyer about the typical settlements in my state), get to see my kids less, while she can move a new guy into the house that I'm paying for.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Yeah we all get that but there is no magic cure.

Marriage needs ownership by two. Is she capable? It's a lot of work and both have to want it.

If so a good MC maybe you're only hope. You'd need a good one which is a different conversation.

Sounds like you're both disconnected.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

How do you bring it up? Say: Wife, I'm not comfortable with you being seen out and about with another man. People talk and I don't want it getting back to your parents or the kids. Please hold off on dating until after the divorce.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> I once knew a cerebral humanoid that had a 50 gallon termite terrarium. The termite colony and many of its tunnels could be viewed from the side. The Queens chamber was readily visible. The Queen mated only with one male, rightly called the King. He was roughly one twentieth her size.
> 
> The fat Queen stroked and cavorted with many of the other male ants. But none delivered their seed into her.
> 
> ...


WTH? Seriously? :rofl::rofl::rofl: Someone needs a shrink. I'll leave it to your imagination as to whom.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> Yeah we all get that but there is no magic cure.
> 
> Marriage needs ownership by two. Is she capable? It's a lot of work and both have to want it.
> 
> ...


Very much agree with the bit in bold.... We're on our second MC. First was useless, second is a bit better but still not really meeting our needs. MC is an interesting world. So much of the focus is on "communication" but sometimes it's really not about how people communicate or react to the communication. With my wife it's simply that she doesn't like what I say, just as I know it doesn't matter how I word it, when I call her out on this thing with the other guy, she's just going to freak out. It's almost gasslighting


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Her freaking out is on her. It's a manipulation tactic to shut down the conversation. You can tell her that when she has calmed herself down you two can have a conversation like two civilized human beings.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> WTH? Seriously? :rofl::rofl::rofl: Someone needs a shrink. I'll leave it to your imagination as to whom.


I assumed it was some new age interweb Bott trying to pass the Turing test. 





Blondilocs said:


> How do you bring it up? Say: Wife, I'm not comfortable with you being seen out and about with another man. People talk and I don't want it getting back to your parents or the kids. Please hold off on dating until after the divorce.


If I bring it up, it's more "Wtf you doing going out so much with him and chatting with him into the small hours of the night?". I don't give a **** about people talking (not that anybody would know who they are or give a **** about their parents). Guess I'll do some reading in the infidelity threads, but just not sure how to react to the straight out denial I'm likely to get. Am reminded of the thread in here on the wife whose husband will debate the fact that she's holding up a black sharpey. Hard to argue with people who are willing to deny the evidence right in front of everyone.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Her freaking out is on her. It's a manipulation tactic to shut down the conversation. You can tell her that when she has calmed herself down you two can have a conversation like two civilized human beings.


You answered the question before I asked it 

Yeah, think this is fair enough. I don't think she's able to have that conversation, but at least I can maintain the moral highground and try.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"If I bring it up, it's more "Wtf you doing going out so much with him and chatting with him into the small hours of the night?" LOL

Well, we don't have to wonder why the MC is trying to hone your communication skills.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Ha! MC's can do more damage than help if you have the wrong one.

IMO, you get out of the infidelity. 

How? Set your boundaries and if they're crossed you go your own way. 

Going your own way- if you don't want to file you move her out of the bedroom, take off your ring, go out with friends or family, etc, join a gym anything to "go your own way". Minimal contact about kids or business. Start separating finances as much as you can to protect yourself.

If you just stay as you are you change nothing so nothing will change. She's happy cake eating.

Take yourself out of the equation - study the 180 and modify it to your needs.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Left arm optimistic said:


> You answered the question before I asked it
> 
> Yeah, think this is fair enough. I don't think she's able to have that conversation, but at least I can maintain the moral highground and try.


Stay on point and never back down. This is on her. Does she want a marriage or not. You can't have one with a third person in it.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Do some digging and get you evidence before you confront

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...vidence-post.html?highlight=standard+evidence


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> WTH? Seriously? :rofl::rofl::rofl: Someone needs a shrink. I'll leave it to your imagination as to whom.



If you and I were on a battlefield on opposing sides and a mortar round was fired by each of our armies.......

I would hear them coming and move to a safe spot.

You? Bye Bye.

FYI: OP is the humanoid in my post.

Bereft of feeling, bereft of knowledge......what his wife is up to. Oh, he knows. He is a denier. He is comfortable in his rhetoric cocoon. He is passionless, IMO.

Please Dear...do not shrink away from deep water. In it will be found the truth. Any poster can scribe words.

I scribe flames. 

Diminish me, if you can!

Ostriches have been maligned unfairly. They do not stick their heads in the sand to avoid danger. They are very alert, very aware of their surroundings.

OP...the original poster, is the real head hider. His wife is doing him wrong. And he permits it.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> "If I bring it up, it's more "Wtf you doing going out so much with him and chatting with him into the small hours of the night?" LOL
> 
> Well, we don't have to wonder why the MC is trying to hone your communication skills.


I wasn't serious, but I'm assuming that your "Wife, why are you out and about with another man, people talk and I don't want this getting back to your parents" wasn't serious either. I've tried all methods of communication, but bottom line is that if someone refuses to accept what you're communicating, then the way you communicate it is irrelevant.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> If you and I were on a battlefield on opposing sides and a mortar round was fired by each of our armies.......
> 
> I would hear them coming and move to a safe spot.
> 
> ...


One of the most amusing things on the internet is that someone like you can call me bereft of knowledge and passionless on the basis of so little. But I appreciate the right to free speech and all that


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> Do some digging and get you evidence before you confront
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...vidence-post.html?highlight=standard+evidence



Awesome - thanks very much. I'd already started looking at VARs but this seems a perfect resource. Was already thinking of the Pen. I guess this helps formulate next steps. Much harder / impossible for her to deny stuff if I have hard evidence.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

If you have access to her phone or she syncs it to a PC you can recover deleted text messages. Fonelab, etc.

Don't take the "you invaded my privacy" to cheat bull$hit.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Good luck. As time goes on you'll tire of this. Your attitude, etc will change over time if this can't be worked out.

Sorry you're here


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

My ex had 3 emotional affairs during our marriage....all of which he denied when confronted with but it was obvious. We want to think it is innocent or that it will stop, or the other person will go away. We can convince ourselves of almost anything we don't want to see. The reality is your wife is spending time with another man. This is unacceptable and if she cannot understand that you need to question why you are still around.


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## Mr.StrongMan (Feb 10, 2016)

AVR1962 said:


> My ex had 3 emotional affairs during our marriage....all of which he denied when confronted with but it was obvious. We want to think it is innocent or that it will stop, or the other person will go away. We can convince ourselves of almost anything we don't want to see. *The reality is your wife is spending time with another man. This is unacceptable and if she cannot understand that you need to question why you are still around.*


This really hit home with me!!! I, as the Op, have some thinking to do.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Left arm optimistic said:


> On the basis of the info I gave, it's illogical to imply that chances of it being physical are higher than 50%.


There isn't a regular poster on this site that doesn't think you wife got the hell banged out of her multiple times. There aren't hardly any cheating red flags that she has missed. The only two I can think of is you didn't mention if she got waxed and bout new underwear before she left.

Do not let her visit her parents with your kids. They won't come back.

Get the VAR. Cheaters have a common script. The only odd thing about your sitch is how obvious she is being. Good Lord


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Every many I know would have dumped a wife or girlfriend when he found out she dated a man the whole time she was on vacation.

You like stats. The chance your wife cheated simply because you came here and asked for advice is upwards of 95%. The odds of an emotional affair at this point is 100%.

Get the MMSLP book linked to below. Assuming your wife wants to stay married at this point get her the book NOT JUST FRIENDS. NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY does not fit everyone. MMSLP fits all men. Also get HOLD ON TO YOUR NUTS.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Dude, I gotta ask since you threw out the "I know people card because I'm analytical": Why did you marry this woman in the first place if you understand analytics and human nature so well? Your wife clearly has a number of problems going on (ADD and OCD?), so why marry someone with clearly known flaws? 

I'm a data driven guy myself due to my profession. So to say you are confident that your wife and this OM did not have any physical contact despite them being physically together for much of the trip out east is naive. No offense, but proximity to each other alone plus feelings of fondness for each other would have a high probability of physical infidelity - especially if your marriage wasn't at the best shape prior to her departure. 

I don't want to beat you up on the forum, but I think it's hubris on your part to be so dismissive of people showing concern that the situation may be worse than you think it is. A number of these people have been there before in your shoes. Hell, a number of them may have seen the exact same scenarios that you laid out where it ultimately did end up being a physical affair. If you want advice, you should at least keep an open mind and do some digging into it further if for no other reason than to give yourself peace of mind. Good luck.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Left arm optimistic said:


> On the basis of the info I gave, it's illogical to imply that chances of it being physical are higher than 50%.


What does it matter? There is still a chance.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

EA/PA or not...the bottom line is you are sharing your W with another man. The communication your W is conducting with the OM is over the top. It appears you are ok with the all day/late night texting sessions your W is conducting. Don't you think that time is better spent with you????


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> There isn't a regular poster on this site that doesn't think you wife got the hell banged out of her multiple times. There aren't hardly any cheating red flags that she has missed. The only two I can think of is you didn't mention if she got waxed and bout new underwear before she left.
> 
> Do not let her visit her parents with your kids. They won't come back.
> 
> Get the VAR. Cheaters have a common script. The only odd thing about your sitch is how obvious she is being. Good Lord


Sad but very true.

OP you sound codependent to me or just in utter denial.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Chaparral said:


> Every many I know would have dumped a wife or girlfriend when he found out she dated a man the whole time she was on vacation.
> 
> You like stats. The chance your wife cheated simply because you came here and asked for advice is upwards of 95%. The odds of an emotional affair at this point is 100%.
> 
> Get the MMSLP book linked to below. Assuming your wife wants to stay married at this point get her the book NOT JUST FRIENDS. NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY does not fit everyone. MMSLP fits all men. Also get HOLD ON TO YOUR NUTS.


Thanks. You are probably right. People consistently do the sort of things you never expect. Agree, she's 100% having an emotional affair. She shares her location on her phone, and at least I can see she wasn't at his place or at a hotel, but would have had plenty opportunity for other physical stuff, even if it wasn't full on sex.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Dude, I gotta ask since you threw out the "I know people card because I'm analytical": Why did you marry this woman in the first place if you understand analytics and human nature so well? Your wife clearly has a number of problems going on (ADD and OCD?), so why marry someone with clearly known flaws?
> 
> I'm a data driven guy myself due to my profession. So to say you are confident that your wife and this OM did not have any physical contact despite them being physically together for much of the trip out east is naive. No offense, but proximity to each other alone plus feelings of fondness for each other would have a high probability of physical infidelity - especially if your marriage wasn't at the best shape prior to her departure.
> 
> I don't want to beat you up on the forum, but I think it's hubris on your part to be so dismissive of people showing concern that the situation may be worse than you think it is. A number of these people have been there before in your shoes. Hell, a number of them may have seen the exact same scenarios that you laid out where it ultimately did end up being a physical affair. If you want advice, you should at least keep an open mind and do some digging into it further if for no other reason than to give yourself peace of mind. Good luck.


Thank you - and I agree with the above (and stated this in my previous post). I was probably being naive. Wife has always made it so clear that an affair = game over, so I'm over-estimating her. Re the ADD and OCD stuff - some of that took a while to come to light. The OCD isn't too bad, and she didn't have any anxiety attacks until after we were married. Think half the world is ADD (and our devices feed into this). 

Apologies if my language seemed dismissive. Those who have gone through what I'm experiencing can probably relate to the "it only happens to other people" thing...

Key question now - what do I do when I do get hard evidence? I live in a "no blame" state, so it wouldnt even help in any divorce settlement, but of course I could try kicking her out since I have the moral high ground. I certainly don't see why she should be allowed to stay in the house I pay for after she's done this.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

ButtPunch said:


> Sad but very true.
> 
> OP you sound codependent to me or just in utter denial.


Certainly some denial. But not co-dependant. I just love my kids (3 and 5) more than anything and I'm a more positive influence on them than wife is. I don't want to lose that because my wife had an affair, yet a judge would probably still rule that they'd be better off with my wife, and me paying for it.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Going beyond the obvious EA, I find it interesting that, from your description, your M went south after the birth of your 2 kids. 

That is an extremely stressful time for a marriage for a variety of reasons.

Would it be fair to say that your sex life has taken a nose-dive? No time together?

Any possibility of some post partum depression going on? 

Does she work? 

Is she overwhelmed taking care of the kids?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Your attorney seems awfully pessimistic. Try dadsdivorce.com


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Left arm optimistic said:


> One of the most amusing things on the internet is that someone like you can call me bereft of knowledge and passionless on the basis of so little. But I appreciate the right to free speech and all that


My rhetoric is to light a fire under your tail. Not to belittle you. 

Sorry if it "appears" that way.

Sarcasm is not a Universal Language.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Left arm optimistic said:


> A couple of weeks ago, my wife went away to visit her family (a 1 week visit), and she was also looking forward to meeting up with an old (male) friend of hers who got divorced a year or so ago.
> 
> This friend picked her up from the airport and they spent the morning and afternoon together before driving her back to her parents place where she was staying. They went out to a bar a couple nights later (which she didn't tell me about - I found out from a Facebook comment about it) and then the following night went to the movies and to a bar (which she did tell me about). He also took her to the airport before she flew home, but I only learnt afterwards that they'd also spent the morning together going to a farmers market or something.


 So let me get this straight, she supposedly goes to visit her parents without you for a whole week. Instead of using all of this time to hang with her parents, she spends much of this time instead hanging with this other man (OM) that is recently divorced. This OM picks her up in the morning from the airport, spends the first day with her, on other days she goes to bars with him at night, goes to see a movie with him, spends the morning at a farmers market with him before she flew (no one buys groceries on the way to the airport), and those are just the things that you know about. Did she really go just to see her parents, or did she also go to see him? If she just went to see her parents, she could have cut the trip much shorter.

Dating is spending time with romantically viable members of the opposite sex in an effort to get to know them better. Studies show that most dates do not involve sex, and many do not even involve kissing (especially in the early stages of dating). Even if you assume that they did not kiss (or more), your wife in effected dated this recently divorced and romantically available OM. I could not think how it would have been planned differently if they were officially dating. Why are you OK with that? BTW when people cheat, they always tell their spouse that they are just friends. Also, many couples have marital boundaries that do not allow for opposite sex friends (OSF), with most that do have boundaries that allow for OSF having boundaries that require that the OSF be known to the spouse, friendly to the spouse, and a friend of the marriage; is the OM known to the spouse, friendly to the spouse, and a friend of the marriage?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Left arm optimistic said:


> Certainly some denial. But not co-dependant. I just love my kids (3 and 5) more than anything and I'm a more positive influence on them than wife is. I don't want to lose that *because my wife had an affair,* yet a judge would probably still rule that they'd be better off with my wife, and me paying for it.


Justice and Karma are not bedfellows. *You have put a low price on Your Ego and your Honor.* That, by the way is a very Christian thing to do.

The has more to do with the jingling coins that you will lose and the juggling face time with your children. This does not compute well with most of the males on this blog. It is your life. Think about yourself. Don't you deserve a better life with a better women?

Waiting for Karma? Karma comes in many stripes and flavors. And not as wished or expected. It may skip a decade or strike the next generation via the loins of the Original Sinner.

"Certain", unequivocal Justice comes from the hand of the Betrayed. That power is in your Left Hand.

No waiting involved.

Punish.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> My rhetoric is to light a fire under your tail. Not to belittle you.
> 
> Sorry if it "appears" that way.
> 
> Sarcasm is not a Universal Language.


Fair enough, and no offence taken. You've passed the Turning test


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Chaparral said:


> Your attorney seems awfully pessimistic. Try dadsdivorce.com



Will take a look at that, thanks. Re my situation - I believe it's just the laws of the state. in a "no blame state" infidelity and adultery have no impact on divorce hearings be it related to custody or alimony


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Tron said:


> Going beyond the obvious EA, I find it interesting that, from your description, your M went south after the birth of your 2 kids.
> 
> That is an extremely stressful time for a marriage for a variety of reasons.
> 
> ...


Certainly way too late for post partum depression (youngest kid is three and a half). Wife wanted to be a stay at home mum, but has hated it. I supported her wanting to be a SAHM and would have supported her getting a job. Things would have been better this way (her working) anyway. 

Sex life has actually been ok. But we don't spend quality time together, because even before this EA, she'd spend her evenings IMing her female friends and siters. Maybe this was a coping mechanism 1-2 yrs ago, but it drives me mad now because it's like she's never present. Now, 5 yr old is in school 5 days a week, 3 yr old twice a week. I do bath and bed time nearly every night, and when they wake up in the night I go in there most of the time. Don't think she can claim she's overwhelmed anymore, even if she completely was a year or two ago (at which point I was pulling my weight even more than I am now).


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

TRy said:


> So let me get this straight, she supposedly goes to visit her parents without you for a whole week. Instead of using all of this time to hang with her parents, she spends much of this time instead hanging with this other man (OM) that is recently divorced. This OM picks her up in the morning from the airport, spends the first day with her, on other days she goes to bars with him at night, goes to see a movie with him, spends the morning at a farmers market with him before she flew (no one buys groceries on the way to the airport), and those are just the things that you know about. *Did she really go just to see her parents, or did she also go to see him? If she just went to see her parents, she could have cut the trip much shorter.
> *
> Dating is spending time with romantically viable members of the opposite sex in an effort to get to know them better. Studies show that most dates do not involve sex, and many do not even involve kissing (especially in the early stages of dating). Even if you assume that they did not kiss (or more), your wife in effected dated this recently divorced and romantically available OM. I could not think how it would have been planned differently if they were officially dating. Why are you OK with that? BTW when people cheat, they always tell their spouse that they are just friends. Also, many couples have marital boundaries that do not allow for opposite sex friends (OSF), with most that do have boundaries that allow for OSF having boundaries that require that the OSF be known to the spouse, friendly to the spouse, and a friend of the marriage; is the OM known to the spouse, friendly to the spouse, and a friend of the marriage?


Re the bit in bold - I didn't mind her trip being a bit longer. Normally she goes to see family and doesn't get much quality time because she has the kids with her. I loved taking a week off work and spending it with my kids. If she'd told me at the time quite how much time she'd be spending with this OM I would have raised the issue. 

As it is, now I need more evidence, else she'll just deny everything and go further underground, and on the attack. 

The OM is an old high school friend. We went to his wedding, and I've exchanged the odd Facebook message with him, but obviously not recently. Funny thing is he has nothing going for him - no job, living in a shared house etc... wife is probably just loving the attention that she feels doesn't get from me (which to an extent is fair enough, but then I work my ass off for the family, do far more with the kids than any of her friend's husbands, and I'd love to give her more attention, but she's hooked on her devices every minute of the day. Sometimes she may as well be a hologram. 

Interesting sub convo about OSF... in an ideal world you wouldn't need such boundaries, but maybe humans are just too corrupt...


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Mr.StrongMan said:


> This really hit home with me!!! I, as the Op, have some thinking to do.


Mr.Strong, I seriously get it!!! You want the marriage to work, you love your wife, you have children together and you want what is best for them. My guess here is she is looking for that man that can stroke her endless need of reassurance but when it comes from you it is nothing. Try it. Be romantic, take her on a date, hold her hand across the table, tell her how much she means to you. No flowers, no gifts....only words of affirmation. If she feels awkward or cannot accept it, it's more than likely because she has someone else in mind.

There are serial cheater and there are serial EA people....both seek acceptance/affirmation from people other than their spouse. This does not stop no matter how forgiving you are, unfortunately. It is something within themselves they have to come to terms with.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Left arm optimistic said:


> I didn't mind her trip being a bit longer. Normally she goes to see family and doesn't get much quality time because she has the kids with her. I loved taking a week off work and spending it with my kids. If she'd told me at the time quite how much time she'd be spending with this OM I would have raised the issue.
> 
> As it is, now I need more evidence, else she'll just deny everything and go further underground, and on the attack.


 First, you never answered the question "Did she really go just to see her parents, or did she also go to see him?" 

Second, you do not need more evidence to know that she was out of line. She asked you to watched the children for a week so that she could spend "quality time" (without you or the children) with her parents, not so that she could spend quality time with her parents and the other man. This misrepresentation was a lie by omission, as she knew that you "would have raised the issue" if she had told you the truth. Much of this time with the OM was planned in advance right up to picking her up at the airport and spending the first day with him. 



Left arm optimistic said:


> Interesting sub convo about OSF... in an ideal world you wouldn't need such boundaries, but maybe humans are just too corrupt...


 Martial boundaries are actually healthy, and helps protect against developing inappropriate feelings that could endanger your marriage. Ask yourself this question. If you go on vacation for a week without your spouse or you children, and you spend much of this vacation having fun going to lunch, to dinner, movies, bars, shopping, etc. alone with an attractive women, as a man, could you see yourself developing feelings for this attractive woman?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Left arm optimistic said:


> Fair enough, and no offence taken. You've passed the Turning test


Good One!


"Turing" Test.
Alan Turing, 1950 University of Manchester


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

TRy said:


> First, you never answered the question "Did she really go just to see her parents, or did she also go to see him?"
> 
> Second, you do not need more evidence to know that she was out of line. She asked you to watched the children for a week so that she could spend "quality time" (without you or the children) with her parents, not so that she could spend quality time with her parents and the other man. This misrepresentation was a lie by omission, as she knew that you "would have raised the issue" if she had told you the truth. Much of this time with the OM was planned in advance right up to picking her up at the airport and spending the first day with him.
> 
> Martial boundaries are actually healthy, and helps protect against developing inappropriate feelings that could endanger your marriage. Ask yourself this question. If you go on vacation for a week without your spouse or you children, and you spend much of this vacation having fun going to lunch, to dinner, movies, bars, shopping, etc. alone with an attractive women, as a man, could you see yourself developing feelings for this attractive woman?


Re the question - she went to see her family, and I supported her in getting a break from the kids. A few months ago, I went alone to visit my family and left her with the kids. It's been over 6 years since she got to spend more than a couple days alone, not having any parental responsibility. We live far from family support, so I supported the idea of her getting a break. I knew she was going to see a couple friends (including some married friends) and this OM. Her parents get overly emotional when it's time to take her back to the airport, so I initially wasn't concerned about her 'friend' doing this. Of course if she'd said "we'll hang out all day when I arrive, go on two date nights, then hang out all day again until my flight home" I wouldn't have been quite so understanding, so yes definitely some omission there. 

I've been with my wife 10 yrs. We're from different countries, and in the early days (before we had kids), I used to go back to my country and visit my friends. Sometimes I would see a single female friend, but I certainly didn't have feelings for her, and I certainly would never have seen that same female friend 4 times in the space of a week, and even more certainly not if my marriage was in it's current state, because yes, under those situations I could see myself developing feelings.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

How is your wife explaining all these dates with another man? How is she explaining why she hid them from you? How are you explaining how to her how that makes her look?

Are you familiar with the 180?


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

You say you are from different countries. That may explain some of your writing style. Do you mind me letting us know what countries ? I am always interested in the cultural aspect to some of this.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Malaise said:


> Many here would say yes, that a friend of the other sex is not good for the marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> I would have no problem but I believe I'm in the minority.




That would be ok if the friend was a friend of the marriage. That is not the case here.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

LAO,

Sorry you have to deal with this scenario. I have a few questions

1. Which of you decided that the marriage was not working and was really only one of convenience?
2. If it was you (sounds like your conclusion cause your wife said she still loves you) I assume you conveyed this to your wife or talked about it and it is clear to your wife.
3.If the marriage is one of convenience (financially, to see the kids, etc) why are you so concerned about what your wife does? Why not have an open marriage?
4. It sounds to me like you have checked out of the marriage, have not really been putting the effort into MC (you are blaming everyone else, two MCs, your wife, the legal system, her OCD, etc.)
5. No woman can live under that kind of scenario, one of the most important needs of a woman is security (emotional and financial). If she is not getting this at home, she will start looking elsewhere (rightly or wrongly).

Why did you not want to put the effort into your marriage? It seems to me as if you don't want her but you also don't want anyone else to have her. (BTW I do not condone what she is doing in anyway).

However, everyone is jumping on the bandwagon of her and her EA etc but something doesnt add up to me, but of course I do not have the back story.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Chaparral said:


> How is your wife explaining all these dates with another man? How is she explaining why she hid them from you? How are you explaining how to her how that makes her look?
> 
> Are you familiar with the 180?


It was like she told me some of it but not other stuff... some of it came out piecemeal, some of it she told me straight up, some of it she hasn't actually told me (one night I saw her location was a bar - she never told me about that, but I know she didnt have any other friends in town who she would see, and the day after, the OM posted something on is Facebook and she said "why didn't you tell me about this last night" 

I don't want to confront her on this stuff until I have more evidence, else she can just deny it, however implausible it sounds. Once I have evidence, I think I'll say to her that I know exactly what's going on (without revealing my evidence) and if she denies it I'll say you can either admit what you've been doing or I'll share the evidence with your family and friends and they can all make up their own mind. 

Not familiar with the 180 - always interested to read more / find out more...


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

manfromlamancha said:


> You say you are from different countries. That may explain some of your writing style. Do you mind me letting us know what countries ? I am always interested in the cultural aspect to some of this.


She's from the US, I'm from the UK. Don't think there's much of a cultural difference, more just a people difference...


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Left arm optimistic said:


> She's from the US, I'm from the UK. Don't think there's much of a cultural difference, more just a people difference...


Oh OK! Agreed. Not much of a cultural difference. Just the language!


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

aine said:


> LAO,
> 
> Sorry you have to deal with this scenario. I have a few questions
> 
> ...


To answer your questions:

1. We've been having problems in our marriage for a few years (more on that later). I think we now have got to the point where we both realize what is at stake if we do split up, which is where the 'convenience' thing comes from, but maybe this is too glib a term. It's not like this is the only reason we're staying together, but it could be a significant driving force in terms of us both realizing the consequences of us not being together. 

2. I first started discussing concerns with our relationship 5 yrs ago. Things would get better for a little while and then worse. Nothing too big at that stage. 2 yrs ago, things started to get much worse, but when ever I did try to discuss my concerns, I would be shot down. She didn't want to talk about it, or what was happening was "normal" etc... The way I work is that I want to be able to openly discuss things with my wife, and I'm happy for her to discuss things with me. If she has concerns, I listen and try to address them. When I have concerns she gets super defensive, angry and shuts down. 

3. I may well say to my wife - if she wants us both to live in the same house (separate bedrooms) and have our own relationships, then that's fine. But I won't have her sneaking around cheating while I'm being faithful. At least in this scenario, I can stay close to my kids. 

4. I have put effort into MC and our marriage. But all that tends to happen in our MC sessions is that my wife ends up being angry with me afterwards for the things I've said. The things I've expressed concern about (both inside and outside of MC) are 

a) my wife spending every minute of every evening (and often day) on her phone or computer (and this was before her affair). Means she's not present and we don't spend quality time together. She's said that if she's not on her devices, she just falls asleep, but I think this is lame. I'm not so boring as to put people to sleep if they're not hooked on their devices. 

b) The amount of screen time she was giving our children (often so she wouldn't be disturbed while she was on her devices), and lack of interaction with them. 

c) the fact that our marriage was so unbalanced - I know being a SAHM was very, very tough for her (despite it being what she wanted) - but I would be working 45 hours a week in an office, putting the kids to bed every night, doing an extra 2-3 hours work before I went to bed, and then I would be the one getting up in the night when the kids woke. My now 6 yr old used to wake up 4-7 nights a week, sometimes 2-3 times a night. Yet it was only me losing sleep, despite me waking up for work an hour or two before my wife every day. On the weekends, my wife would tune out and would sleep in both days.

d) Money - we have a joint bank account, and my wife spends $5-$10 for every $1 I spend. It just means that we don't save money or have an emergency fund, despite the fact that I earn good money. My wife was incandescently outraged when I said I wanted to put x% of my salary into a savings account (that neither of us would use - but would be a nest egg / emergency fund) so that we could make sure we weren't spending every penny of our disposable income. Just as an example - in the last 18 months, my wife has bought a Mac, 3 iPhones, and Apple Watch, an Apple TV a $300 pair of wireless headphones, she probably spends $100 a month on clothes, as well as a load of little things on Amazon, craft stores etc, that all adds up. I'm not being mean or controlling or stingy with money - I just want us to think about how and what we spend, and be able to have conversations about money, particularly for large purchases. It's ironic in that when we got together she told me that her ex used to go out and spend all their money and it drove her mad. 

5) Where I have failed, is I haven't been romantic enough, and there was a period last year where I was very grumpy (partly due to exhaustion), but I've been much better lately. It's like we've both been in survival mode while our kids were little, and we didn't have a family support structure. But I've provided financial security and emotional security in terms of taking the load off her as much as I could. 

So, I'm not perfect , and of course you're only hearing my side of the story - you can take it or leave it.. but I feel that over the years, I've put in a hell of a lot of effort into our marriage, and given so much more than my wife has ever given me. You're right. I don't even know if I want to stay with this person who in my words (and those of our marriage counselor) 'has no respect for me'. But this still doesn't mean it's ok for her to have an affair, while we're still in MC and still supposedly trying to work things out. From wife's perspective, marriage was fine until I started expressing concerns. But what kind of marriage is it where one party isn't allowed to express their concerns in an adult way?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Your wife is a spoiled *****. Why would you let her get away with so much? Conflict avoidant?

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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Your wife is a spoiled b!tch. Why would you let her get away with so much? Conflict avoidant?


I agree with this. You sound like you do quite a bit at home.

You need to go ahead and do the savings and start taking charge of things that are important to you. And put her on a damn budget if you have a problem with her spending.

As for her defensiveness over your "concerns", I get it and I readily admit that I've gotten defensive in the past. But if you cannot have a discussion with her about things that are important to you without her getting mad about it, then she really isn't a very good partner.


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Your wife is a spoiled b!tch. Why would you let her get away with so much? Conflict avoidant?





Tron said:


> I agree with this. You sound like you do quite a bit at home.
> 
> You need to go ahead and do the savings and start taking charge of things that are important to you. And put her on a damn budget if you have a problem with her spending.
> 
> As for her defensiveness over your "concerns", I get it and I readily admit that I've gotten defensive in the past. But if you cannot have a discussion with her about things that are important to you without her getting mad about it, then she really isn't a very good partner.


Unfortunately the reality is that she's an average mother and a lousy wife. The more I think about it, the more I don't see a future. Yet the world is in a crazy place at the moment, and my kids - who I love more than anything in the world - are still young and developing and because wife and I don't argue in front of them (and even show some affection to each other) staying together for the moment, seems the lesser of all evils.. Of course if the affair is proven, everything may change...

I think we all are who we are today as a mix of our choices, our upbringings and our past relationships. My wife was married before, and he was emotionally abusive (physically abusive to their daughter) and controlling. Think my wife just had such a bad experience with him, she's gone way way too far the other way. 

I guess I also had conflict from my parents when growing up, so maybe did avoid conflict too much in the early years of my relationship with wife. So things crept up and steadily got worse and worse... like the frog being boiled in the water and not realizing it's being boiled until too late.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Left arm optimistic;17327090[B said:


> ]*It was like she told me some of it but not other stuff... some of it came out piecemeal, some of it she told me straight up, some of it she hasn't actually told me (one night I saw her location was a bar - she never told me about that, but I know she didnt have any other friends in town who she would see, and the day after, the OM posted something on is Facebook and she said "why didn't you tell me about this last night"
> *
> [/B]I don't want to confront her on this stuff until I have more evidence, else she can just deny it, however implausible it sounds. Once I have evidence, I think I'll say to her that I know exactly what's going on (without revealing my evidence) and if she denies it I'll say you can either admit what you've been doing or I'll share the evidence with your family and friends and they can all make up their own mind.
> 
> Not familiar with the 180 - always interested to read more / find out more...


Look up " Trickle truth "


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## Mr.StrongMan (Feb 10, 2016)

Left arm optimistic said:


> It was like she told me some of it but not other stuff... some of it came out piecemeal, some of it she told me straight up, some of it she hasn't actually told me (one night I saw her location was a bar - she never told me about that, but I know she didnt have any other friends in town who she would see, and the day after, the OM posted something on is Facebook and she said "why didn't you tell me about this last night"
> 
> I don't want to confront her on this stuff until I have more evidence, else she can just deny it, however implausible it sounds. Once I have evidence, I think I'll say to her that I know exactly what's going on (without revealing my evidence) *and if she denies it I'll say you can either admit what you've been doing or I'll share the evidence with your family and friends and they can all make up their own mind. *
> 
> Not familiar with the 180 - always interested to read more / find out more...


Do you think blackmailing her is going to resolve this issue? I really don't think that's the right thing to do.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Mr.StrongMan said:


> Do you think blackmailing her is going to resolve this issue? I really don't think that's the right thing to do.


None of the advice you've been given will resolve this issue. You would have to take action for that to happen, and apparently no advice is going to get you moving.

I still think you won't investigate infidelity because you're afraid you'll find out it's true and then feel you _have_ to do something other than whine.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Sometimes people in a crappy situation will stay in it because they are more afraid of the unknown. 

At this time your fear defines you. Until you change that outlook nothing changes for you.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Put money in a savings acct without her name on it. Not putting money in the acct is not her option.

Your biggest problem is you've been West coast domesticated to point where your man card has been revoked. You're no longer married, just an indentured servant that brings home the bacon.

Get a var and put one in her car and one at home and see what she is saying and to who she speaking to. Put a gps on her car if she knows you are tracking her now.

Read the MMSLP book below. No matter what modern thought or theory that comes along, you can take to the bank, biology rules us.
The idea that we are in control is only partially true. Our brains are a tool of our bodies and along for the ride most of the time. And that's if you're religious. If your an atheist, well you're always just along for the ride.


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## Mr.StrongMan (Feb 10, 2016)

Nucking Futs said:


> None of the advice you've been given will resolve this issue. You would have to take action for that to happen, and apparently no advice is going to get you moving.
> 
> I still think you won't investigate infidelity because you're afraid you'll find out it's true and then feel you _have_ to do something other than whine.


 @Nucking Futs is this directed towards me or the OP? Because I was directing my post to the OP's issue.

I have investigated my W. And I didn't find anything except some silly flirtatious emails around 3 years ago. But they were only a few over a long period of time. What makes you think I didn't stop in at work unexpected and found nothing?


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Mr.StrongMan said:


> @Nucking Futs is this directed towards me or the OP? Because I was directing my post to the OP's issue.
> 
> I have investigated my W. And I didn't find anything except some silly flirtatious emails around 3 years ago. But they were only a few over a long period of time. What makes you think I didn't stop in at work unexpected and found nothing?


Whoops, wrong thread. It was directed at you. How long ago did you investigate, and did you follow the tips in the thread linked in my sig?


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## Mr.StrongMan (Feb 10, 2016)

Nucking Futs said:


> Whoops, wrong thread. It was directed at you. How long ago did you investigate, and did you follow the tips in the thread linked in my sig?


Well if I recall the correct thread, I didn't use a VR or GPS in the car.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Mr.StrongMan said:


> Well if I recall the correct thread, I didn't use a VR or GPS in the car.


And how long ago did you not use a var or gps?


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

So... am waiting for a couple VARs to arrive, but I do think most of their communication is going on via imessage (including some text book red flag stuff), so really just need to catch some time on her computer before it locks, and while she's not around. 

But here's a weird thing. She's actually been really nice lately, and far more considerate a person than she normally is. I don't know if this is because of guilt or because she's happy because she's getting an ego boost from this other guy, but it's throwing me off somewhat. Is this a common thing among spouses having affairs?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Left arm optimistic said:


> So... am waiting for a couple VARs to arrive, but I do think most of their communication is going on via imessage (including some text book red flag stuff), so really just need to catch some time on her computer before it locks, and while she's not around.
> 
> But here's a weird thing. She's actually been really nice lately, and far more considerate a person than she normally is. I don't know if this is because of guilt or because she's happy because she's getting an ego boost from this other guy, but it's throwing me off somewhat. Is this a common thing among spouses having affairs?


From what I have heard, yes. Is she taking more time over her appearance?


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## Left arm optimistic (Feb 19, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> From what I have heard, yes. Is she taking more time over her appearance?


No huge difference. But the OM is 3000 miles away.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Left arm optimistic said:


> No huge difference. But the OM is 3000 miles away.


Oh OK.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

How are you doing? Has things gotten better?


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