# LD varieties



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I see a number of things that are called "LD". My thoughts to categorize.

Medical LD: Physical issues, drugs etc have removed someone's sex drive, but if the problem were fixed, the drive would return.

Situational LD: This is someone who would enjoy sex under the right conditions, but their partner is not providing those conditions. Sometimes it is nothing the partner an do, but often the partner is flawed in themselves, their behavior, or how they act in bed. (The wife of a man who just wants quick fcks an BJs could well not want sex).

True LD: Someone who doesn't want sex much - no matter what the circumstances. Nothing their partner can do. I see 4 sub groups:

True LD - absolute: Sex is so unpleasant that the LD doesn't want it. This is usually obvious early in the relationship.

True LD - selfish: This is someone who doesn't really want sex but is willing to use it to get what they want. The classic bait / switch: all excitement and passion until they have "caught" a mate. That may come back under threat of divorce but only as long as needed.

True LD - clueless: Someone who doesn't want much sex and honestly doesn't understand that their partner does. Thinks that "normal" people have sex just to have babies, or maybe missionary once a month. They find their partner's interest amusing or possibly pathetic, but not important.

True LD - giving: Someone who doesn't want sex, but understands that their partner does, and provides it out of love. The partner may not even be aware that they are with a LD.

thoughts?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I see a number of things that are called "LD". My thoughts to categorize.
> 
> Medical LD: Physical issues, drugs etc have removed someone's sex drive, but if the problem were fixed, the drive would return.
> ...


It is incredibly telling that anything other than natural or medical is stated in such negative terms. Clueless, huh? Guess what? Many of us were raised to believe that normal people DON'T have sex except to procreate. Giving? Just gross. Why would anyone want that? Why not just jerk it of no one is going to be home anyway?

I am blown away that people don't see the connection between this attitude and their lack of sex, particularly if there formerly was sex. How can you not see that your manliness is absent when you want sex "given" to you?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
good topic for conversation (which is what I was hoping for).

I guess by "clueless" I mean, clueless about how their partner feels. Its not understanding that for many people sex is vital to happiness. Its fair to say that many HDs are clueless that sex doesn't matter to some people. 

You are right though that the idea of sex only for procreation is as alien a concept to some and sex for enjoyment is to others. Each is so sure that their opinions are the common ones that they never think to ask. 

Why is "giving" sex to the person you love gross? How is it different from a long massage for example?

Manliness? There really isn't a way out in a LD/HD situation. The man can be strong, silent, caring, passionate, and a skilled and generous lover - and end up without a sex life - which doesn't feel very "manly". He can divorce - breaking his marriage vows and maybe abandoning his children, which also doesn't feel very manly. 

Of course often the genders are reversed. You will see posts here from women who are happy to do anything for their partners, but who are generally turned down, or at best offered occasional selfish sex. 


To be clear, what I want is passionate mutual sex. Since my wife only wants that rarely, is it so unreasonable to want her to take care of my needs? Is it so different from the massages, foot rubs, hair washing etc that I give her? There is nothing mutual about those things - they are favors I am happy to do for her because I love her and like to make her happy.






NobodySpecial said:


> It is incredibly telling that anything other than natural or medical is stated in such negative terms. Clueless, huh? Guess what? Many of us were raised to believe that normal people DON'T have sex except to procreate. Giving? Just gross. Why would anyone want that? Why not just jerk it of no one is going to be home anyway?
> 
> I am blown away that people don't see the connection between this attitude and their lack of sex, particularly if there formerly was sex. How can you not see that your manliness is absent when you want sex "given" to you?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> good topic for conversation (which is what I was hoping for).
> 
> I guess by "clueless" I mean, clueless about how their partner feels.


I don't think it is clueless-ness. It is disagreement.




> Its not understanding that for many people sex is vital to happiness. Its fair to say that many HDs are clueless that sex doesn't matter to some people.
> 
> You are right though that the idea of sex only for procreation is as alien a concept to some and sex for enjoyment is to others. Each is so sure that their opinions are the common ones that they never think to ask.
> 
> Why is "giving" sex to the person you love gross? How is it different from a long massage for example?


For one to give, the other has to TAKE. The most intimate, vulnerable thing taken. That is not the kind of sharing and closeness that invests in a relationship bond. It actually spends from the relationship bond. I have never understood people who say they feel bonding occurring through sex with disinterested partner. A happy hormone rush, sure. But bonding requires the connection of TWO.

This is particularly the case when one of the partners has repeatedly indicated the lack of sex is problematic and simply requires the other to deliver more. It is one more chore that eventually becomes distasteful. How can that be a relationship investment? It isn't. It is an investment in one person getting to have an orgasm at anothers expense.




> Manliness? There really isn't a way out in a LD/HD situation. The man can be strong, silent, caring, passionate, and a skilled and generous lover - and end up without a sex life - which doesn't feel very "manly".


That is not what we see on this forum time and time again. We see men "help" with the housework in a covert contract to "get" sex. We see men beg, ask and hand the keys to the world to his wife. We even see some who give up their right to their own bodies. What is manly about begging? What is manly about asking sex be doled out like Halloween candy? What is manly about knowing your man would be happy just sticking his stick in your whoo haa without caring whether or not YOU want it. There is nothing manly about "helping" with the housework. There is something manly about being true to yourself. 




> He can divorce - breaking his marriage vows and maybe abandoning his children, which also doesn't feel very manly.
> 
> Of course often the genders are reversed. You will see posts here from women who are happy to do anything for their partners, but who are generally turned down, or at best offered occasional selfish sex.


Not very womanly. I honestly have not seen many of these threads. So i cannot comment. But there too, something is wrong that has nothing to do with "drive" if it were not formerly the case I would bet in many cases.




> To be clear, what I want is passionate mutual sex. Since my wife only wants that rarely, is it so unreasonable to want her to take care of my needs?


Can you consider the possibility that the fact that you want to basically use her as a blow up doll might be causing the lack of interest? That is what I am suggesting you consider. 



> Is it so different from the massages, foot rubs, hair washing etc that I give her? There is nothing mutual about those things - they are favors I am happy to do for her because I love her and like to make her happy.


How much vulnerability or intimacy is involved in this? Not much.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Richard,
In my mind I categorize it this way.

1. Medical/Mental LD
2. I hate sex LD
3. I hate sex with you LD

I believe 1 and 3 have a chance for turn around. #2 is difficult and possibly hopeless.

My marriage was a #3. The "you" was me.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> It is incredibly telling that anything other than natural or medical is stated in such negative terms. Clueless, huh? Guess what? Many of us were raised to believe that normal people DON'T have sex except to procreate. Giving? Just gross. Why would anyone want that? Why not just jerk it of no one is going to be home anyway?
> 
> I am blown away that people don't see the connection between this attitude and their lack of sex, particularly if there formerly was sex. How can you not see that your manliness is absent when you want sex "given" to you?


This would be great if the person in question limited themselves to marriage with similarly minded individuals, or disclosed their attitude while dating.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> This would be great if the person in question limited themselves to marriage with similarly minded individuals, or disclosed their attitude while dating.


How does one not know about a person's religious and sexual attitudes before marriage? I mean if you married someone who was basically dishonest in order to hook a spouse, there are bigger fish frying than sex.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Totally agree with the concept of giving. 

This is about having an overall generous spirit towards your partner. 

But - it's difficult to imagine having a 'bad' experience giving a massage. 

Having sex, not turned on - that requires a high level of synchronization to ensure the giver is ok. 

It helps to be able to say what's true without tension. Stuff like: 

My desire level for you is a lot higher than yours is for me.

The experience is consistently good enough for me, that even if I wasn't in the mood to start, I'd get there, and it would be overall positive. Not sure that's true for you. 

And then the aftermath - if it was clearly one sided:

That was very kind of you. 

---------





richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> good topic for conversation (which is what I was hoping for).
> 
> I guess by "clueless" I mean, clueless about how their partner feels. Its not understanding that for many people sex is vital to happiness. Its fair to say that many HDs are clueless that sex doesn't matter to some people.
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
sex is a pretty big fish. 

It also may not have been actively dishonest: If the HD partner was naive (as I was), they may just assume that it takes time, that once the other partner is more comfortable, there will be more passion. It honestly never occurred to me that some people didn't enjoy sex no matter what the circumstances.



NobodySpecial said:


> How does one not know about a person's religious and sexual attitudes before marriage? I mean if you married someone who was basically dishonest in order to hook a spouse, there are bigger fish frying than sex.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

good evening
That isn't what I want. What I want is mutual passion, but it seems that is simply not available. 

No, I don't want a blow-up doll. I would hope though that even if she wasn't particularly in the mood that she would be happy to do things to please me, the way that I often do things to please her. It doesn't need to be intercourse (which is uncomfortable if she isn't aroused) but there are lots of other options. 





NobodySpecial said:


> snip
> Can you consider the possibility that the fact that you want to basically use her as a blow up doll might be causing the lack of interest? That is what I am suggesting you consider.
> snip


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Totally agree with the concept of giving.
> 
> This is about having an overall generous spirit towards your partner.
> 
> ...


I am totally down with this.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> good evening
> That isn't what I want. What I want is mutual passion, but it seems that is simply not available.
> 
> No, I don't want a blow-up doll. I would hope though that even if she wasn't particularly in the mood that she would be happy to do things to please me, the way that I often do things to please her. It doesn't need to be intercourse (which is uncomfortable if she isn't aroused) but there are lots of other options.


I honestly don't know your story. But it does not sound like it is working out that well for you. Is it?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,
I think it's worth mentioning both the mechanics and the spirit of these one sided encounters. 

If M2 isn't turned on she does not want to be touched in an explicitly sexual way. Doing so, feels BAD to her. So I touch her in a non sexual way. This is merely making it as good for her as I can. 

But the second bit - the spirit of the encounter - that is equally key. I have a choice here: I can radiate disappointment that she is lacking passion. Or gratitude that she's being generous. 

Here's the thing. It is fairly easy to make this a bad experience for an LD partner. 





richardsharpe said:


> good evening
> That isn't what I want. What I want is mutual passion, but it seems that is simply not available.
> 
> No, I don't want a blow-up doll. I would hope though that even if she wasn't particularly in the mood that she would be happy to do things to please me, the way that I often do things to please her. It doesn't need to be intercourse (which is uncomfortable if she isn't aroused) but there are lots of other options.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> How does one not know about a person's religious and sexual attitudes before marriage? I mean if you married someone who was basically dishonest in order to hook a spouse, there are bigger fish frying than sex.


Try an intercultural marriage, and a marriage before meeting your in-laws and extended family. Religion not an issue, non-religious wedding, attitudes understood and accepted except they change over time as with most immigrants who return to their roots as they get older, and last but not least, rampant mental health issues in her family...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> Try an intercultural marriage, and a marriage before meeting your in-laws and extended family. Religion not an issue, non-religious wedding, attitudes understood and accepted except they change over time as with most immigrants who return to their roots as they get older, and last but not least, rampant mental health issues in her family...


Ah. Way out of my scope of experience. Thanks for sharing.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> How does one not know about a person's religious and sexual attitudes before marriage? I mean if you married someone who was basically dishonest in order to hook a spouse, there are bigger fish frying than sex.


1. They may not have a lot of sexual experience before they get married. 

2. They may not have been in many long-term relationships. 

If someone has just had a few short-term relationships, they may not truly know how they feel about sex. The desire you have for your partner at 3 months is different than at 10 years. In the first year or two, the hormones in your brain are amping up your sex drive. When they fade, then you find out what your base sex drive. If you haven't had many multi-year relationships, you may not truly know your base sex drive.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> thoughts?


I actually think THIS is the most common form:

*LD due to low self esteem and bad self image.* These are people who are ashamed of their body nude, feel that genital areas are unsanitary, and have trouble accepting themselves. Engaging in sex forces them to confront these issues, and it is easier to just ignore them or try to make them go away (as in rejecting sex).

Badsanta


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
no its not- which is why I post on places like this to get ideas. 

I'm married 25 years to a woman I love, and who loves me. We are wonderful together - except for her very limited interest in sex. I've run out of ideas.

Life is much too good for me to want to leave - its just sad that life is so close to being wonderful,but instead I spend so much time feeling frustrated.





NobodySpecial said:


> I honestly don't know your story. But it does not sound like it is working out that well for you. Is it?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
when we do have sex its very nice and seems to be for her as well - she at least both appears to and claims to have really enjoyed it. Often comments how we have to find time more often. But that never happens.




MEM11363 said:


> Richard,
> I think it's worth mentioning both the mechanics and the spirit of these one sided encounters.
> 
> If M2 isn't turned on she does not want to be touched in an explicitly sexual way. Doing so, feels BAD to her. So I touch her in a non sexual way. This is merely making it as good for her as I can.
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Interesting. 

My situation is different. 

I know it isn't on average, as good for M2 as it is for me. 

So I very rarely initiate. 

If I recall correctly, your wife rejects almost all your initiations. You kind of only have sex when she initiates. 

That is a whole different deal. On the rare occasion I do initiate, worst case scenario, it happens within a day or two. 

When you describe R2, she sounds a lot like M2. She's very particular about things. Luckily for her, you have a WIDE comfort zone. Still, net net - you do most stuff the way she wants. 

Totally get that - making her happy makes you happy. Same here. 

In bed - and only in bed - M2 flips the script. Outside the bedroom I am the giver. Inside the bedroom she's the giver. 

I'd not have been so agreeable if I was the giver in and out of bed. 

Doesn't mean I'm lazy or indifferent. Just means that - frequency wise - no question that M2 is the giver. 

I would also find it troublesome if - the only reset button - in terms of awareness - was the possibility of divorce or outsourcing. 






richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> when we do have sex its very nice and seems to be for her as well - she at least both appears to and claims to have really enjoyed it. Often comments how we have to find time more often. But that never happens.


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## speeedbump (Mar 12, 2013)

UMP said:


> Richard,
> In my mind I categorize it this way.
> 
> 1. Medical/Mental LD
> ...





badsanta said:


> I actually think THIS is the most common form:
> 
> *LD due to low self esteem and bad self image.* These are people who are ashamed of their body nude, feel that genital areas are unsanitary, and have trouble accepting themselves. Engaging in sex forces them to confront these issues, and it is easier to just ignore them or try to make them go away (as in rejecting sex).
> 
> Badsanta


I've got the perfect storm of #1 that quickly grew into a #2. And possibly festered into a #3 to top it off.

The #1 began with endometriosis probably compounded by vaginismus. Add in a healthy dose of strict religious guilt/shame and mix in some of Badsanta's body image issues.

I never stood a chance.


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## speeedbump (Mar 12, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> I would also find it troublesome if - the only reset button - in terms of awareness - was the possibility of divorce or outsourcing.


I am troubled. I honestly feel like I've tried everything else and that's the only button left.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

> Is it so different from the massages, foot rubs, hair washing etc that I give her? There is nothing mutual about those things - they are favors I am happy to do for her because I love her and like to make her happy.






NobodySpecial said:


> *How much vulnerability or intimacy is involved in this? Not much.*


I disagree wholeheartedly.


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## woodyh (Oct 23, 2015)

Richard, I like your break down of LD spouses, I think mine is the LD "Clueless", her interest is just low and doesn't understand men or women with high drives.

She controls all the sex.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I disagree wholeheartedly.


Can you help me understand this? A foot massage involves vulnerability? I don't think I am understanding you.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Can you help me understand this? A foot massage involves vulnerability? I don't think I am understanding you.


I'll speak from my own perspective. I HATE being touched, as a rule. I always have. Even as a kid, friends would clap me on the back and I'd instinctively shrink away. Then I'd make up some BS about having a sunburn to keep from having to explain why I hate being touched. The truth of the matter is, I have no idea why I dislike it.

The thought of getting a massage from a professional gives me chills.

The only person who's allowed to give me a massage, foot rub, etc is my wife, and I quite enjoy it coming from her. Back when I used to have a full head of hair, she used to cut it for me. LOVED it.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
for me, giving a massage is not especially intimate, though I would be somewhat uncomfortable giving one to someone other than my wife. 

I would not want to receive a massage from anyone other than my wife, ever. That would make me very uncomfortable.

My wife enjoys massages but doesn't view them as intimate and would be happy to get one (and has) from a professional. 

Not trying to explain why I feel that way, just do. Maybe I just don't like getting service from anyone - except my wife who I view as more part of myself. 





Fozzy said:


> I'll speak from my own perspective. I HATE being touched, as a rule. I always have. Even as a kid, friends would clap me on the back and I'd instinctively shrink away. Then I'd make up some BS about having a sunburn to keep from having to explain why I hate being touched. The truth of the matter is, I have no idea why I dislike it.
> 
> The thought of getting a massage from a professional gives me chills.
> 
> The only person who's allowed to give me a massage, foot rub, etc is my wife, and I quite enjoy it coming from her. Back when I used to have a full head of hair, she used to cut it for me. LOVED it.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
low self esteem does seem an issue in some cases - not sure how many.

Same may apply to HDs who are miserable - the lack of intimacy does terrible things to one's self esteem. 





badsanta said:


> I actually think THIS is the most common form:
> 
> *LD due to low self esteem and bad self image.* These are people who are ashamed of their body nude, feel that genital areas are unsanitary, and have trouble accepting themselves. Engaging in sex forces them to confront these issues, and it is easier to just ignore them or try to make them go away (as in rejecting sex).
> 
> Badsanta


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> no its not- which is why I post on places like this to get ideas.
> 
> I'm married 25 years to a woman I love, and who loves me. We are wonderful together - except for her very limited interest in sex. I've run out of ideas.
> ...


I'm sorry.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I see a number of things that are called "LD". My thoughts to categorize.
> 
> Medical LD: Physical issues, drugs etc have removed someone's sex drive, but if the problem were fixed, the drive would return.
> ...



True LD - giving = Mrs.CuddleBug

Reason: extremely insecure about her body but won't do what's necessary eating better, exercising and making that life style change.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

Same duration, same overall marital happiness. 

One huge difference - M2 - difficult as she is - knows that gas lighting is a certain path to protracted conflict.

She just wouldn't speak and act like it was great - and then causally reject overtures on a regular basis. 

This is why - unsexy as it sounds - I'm careful to make sure that it isn't 'bad' for M2. 

Oddly enough, that makes for greater transparency. 

Vast difference between: 
Hope that was as good for you as it was for me. 

And

Was that, umm, (pause) ok for you?

The latter approach makes it clear that you accept maybe it wasn't so great for them. 






richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> no its not- which is why I post on places like this to get ideas.
> 
> I'm married 25 years to a woman I love, and who loves me. We are wonderful together - except for her very limited interest in sex. I've run out of ideas.
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
one of the mysteries is that my wife gives every indication of really enjoying sex - and says she does so. She just wants it very rarely. Its almost as if she feels that it is wrong, or a waste of time to have sex too often. 








MEM11363 said:


> Richard,
> 
> Same duration, same overall marital happiness.
> 
> ...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am blown away that people don't see the connection between this attitude and their lack of sex, particularly if there formerly was sex. How can you not see that your manliness is absent when you want sex "given" to you?


NP,

I generally agree with you that a husband "asking for sex" is unmanly and could be a turn-off.

However, is "asking" for anything ever appropriate? Is this just a sex specific situation? Would it also be counterproductive if a woman who wanted more sex than her husband asked for more sex? 

I'd hate to think that everything had to be put in terms of "I don't intend on spending my life in a marriage without at least one date night per month".

Begging is always wrong, but I'd think there has to be something between that and "I don't intend to....." although if that's done once or twice without an adequate response, I'd have no problem (and would recommend) "I don't intend......."


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard,

There's this thing I do that is as effective as it is rare. 

I say - smiling and sort of chuckling: Babe, for just a moment now, we are actually talking about me

M2 laughs AND she also stops whatever self focused thought processes that are running, and offers her undivided attention.

So - humor me on this train of thought, because while simplistic it is totally effective. 

If the physical part is not bad, than what's left is the spirit of the encounter. How I feel about it, how she feels about it. How we both feel about her doing something nice for me. And that means overall she feels good about it.

Is she doing it for herself? Nope. Thing is, our marriage is full of areas where I put her preferences and desires first. 

While it's true that - I really don't initiate. It's also true that M2 knows what I would like. And mostly that's what happens. And when life gets in the way a bit, no big deal. 

While your chivalry quotient is high, I think you're making a mistake. Because I seriously doubt you casually reject R2's requests when you know doing so will cause her serious distress....

She's sort of pretending she doesn't know how much this is impacting you, because you are letting her. 

-------
And as a simple example of - meeting needs: M2 NEEDS more quality time with me than I do with her. She gets anxious and unhappy rather quickly when she doesn't get that level of interaction. I could easily do with less, but would not do that to her. And I sure as heck don't pretend like I don't know that it matters. 








richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> one of the mysteries is that my wife gives every indication of really enjoying sex - and says she does so. She just wants it very rarely. Its almost as if she feels that it is wrong, or a waste of time to have sex too often.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> For one to give, the other has to TAKE.


Does this apply to his washing her hair? He "gives" it, she "takes" it. Therefore it shouldn't be done?

I'm guessing that you're seeing sex as unique and unlike anything else two people might do for each other?

And I don't know that Richard is asking his wife to "give" him sex as much as he's asking her to give him the opportunity to do something that she has a track record of greatly enjoying.



NobodySpecial said:


> That is not what we see on this forum time and time again. We see men "help" with the housework in a covert contract to "get" sex. We see men beg, ask and hand the keys to the world to his wife. We even see some who give up their right to their own bodies. What is manly about begging? What is manly about asking sex be doled out like Halloween candy?


I think all of us can agree that these men are going about things the wrong way.



NobodySpecial said:


> Can you consider the possibility that the fact that you want to basically use her as a blow up doll might be causing the lack of interest? That is what I am suggesting you consider


I think that's an extraordinarily unfair thing to say. I've read enough of Richard's posts to know that he doesn't feel that way.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> My situation is different.
> 
> ...


The bolded is the part that Richard needs to pay attention to.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

speeedbump said:


> I am troubled. I honestly feel like I've tried everything else and that's the only button left.


It's time to press that button.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Richard,
> 
> Same duration, same overall marital happiness.
> 
> ...


I disagree on this point.

The best thing I ever did was go skydiving. I did it three times and never got around to doing it again.

Every time my wife goes to the gym with me, when we're done she says "that was great! I don't know why I don't do this all the time!" and then I need the crowbar to get her to go the next time.

Life is full of situations where we can't break out of our inertia to do something that we KNOW we'll enjoy. 

The reason I haven't gone skydiving in 30 years isn't because I didn't like it. Quite the opposite. It takes effort to do something out of the ordinary. I didn't put out that effort. I have no idea why. I wish I had.

I think it's entirely believable that some wives can enjoy sex and just never get around to doing it. They don't prioritize it. Why they don't is the bigger question.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> *She's sort of pretending she doesn't know how much this is impacting you, because you are letting her. *


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

It's mindset.

It's such an HD-LD thing (I don't want to say man-woman thing!) for the HD individual to believe that sex is something that is given to them. They don't understand why the LD person won't give it to them more often, that they sometimes feel they have to ask or even beg to be given sex.

When an HD person initiates in such a way as to make it obvious that their need for sex, their desire for orgasm, their quest for intimacy, is the driving factor, then the LD person feels like the HD person is just taking taking taking, that it's all about the HD person, and any fun factor for the LD person is a side effect.

There's something inherently selfish about initiating sex with the attitude that it's a request, asking to get something from the LD person. If you ask someone to make you a chocolate cake because you love to eat it, that's a completely different entity from making a chocolate cake and offering it to them to eat.

Why can't the HD person approach sex with an attitude of 'giving' to the LD person? Initiate not as a request for sex, but as an offer for sex. Offer the LD partner some physical pleasure, at the possible expense of your own. If it's clear that your own pleasure is to be secondary to the LD person's, they might be more receptive.

Rejection might not feel so bad either. Asked for sex and didn't get it? Boohoo, LD person is selfish! Offered sex but the offer was declined? The LD person's loss.

Won't help for all the LD types described, of course. But some.


----------



## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Interesting topic for sure. My wife is LD and according to your list, she would be classified maybe as True LD-giving. The big difference here is that even though she is LD, she does get horny occasionally and then she wants it as any HD person would. So she mostly falls under that category, but not always.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,

Skydiving is sort of a solo thing. And I can happily go to the gym by myself. We hardly interact while on treadmills. Both listen to music. 

There's that 'vow to forsake all others' - makes this a whole different deal. 

It's MY responsibility to stay fit, be a good partner, etc. 

It's M2's responsibility to work collaboratively with me if anything is making the sexual part of our marriage - difficult for us.

I will say that it helps a lot that: 

M2 doesn't feel like I'm pushing her to the maximum frequency she'd tolerate. 

And I don't feel like she's pushing me to the minimum frequency I would tolerate. 





Buddy400 said:


> I disagree on this point.
> 
> The best thing I ever did was go skydiving. I did it three times and never got around to doing it again.
> 
> ...


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Buddy,
> 
> Skydiving is sort of a solo thing.


Damn, I should of had the foresight to choose activities involving two people (tennis?).

Now it's too late at night for a rewrite. 

Besides, I've already spoiled the plot. :frown2:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I only agreed to forsake ONE ACTIVITY with all others. 

I'm free to play tennis with whomever I like. 

There is a non threatening version of the forsaken conversation. 

Kind of goes like this: All natural monopolies are regulated. And there's a reason for that. Monopoly power, is big. 

You can't sign up to provide a monopoly service, unilaterally choose not to perform and expect a decent outcome. 

And who really thinks it's ok to do that to a partner who is making a good faith effort to - be connected to you? 





Buddy400 said:


> Damn, I should of had the foresight to choose activities involving two people (tennis?).
> 
> Now it's too late at night for a rewrite.
> 
> Besides, I've already spoiled the plot. :frown2:


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The monopoly conversation isn't - hey you're the only provider so you are obligated to provide - full stop. 

Thing is - even with a monopoly you need to do your bit. 

Pay your bills on time and don't screw with their electric meter. 

But the overall concept is valid. If both parties act in good faith, the provider is obligated.

Thing is I KNOW how unsexy that all sounds. 

That said it is far less so than cheating or getting divorced, or letting the disconnect slowly poison the marriage. 





Buddy400 said:


> Damn, I should of had the foresight to choose activities involving two people (tennis?).
> 
> Now it's too late at night for a rewrite.
> 
> Besides, I've already spoiled the plot. :frown2:


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Guess what? Many of us were raised to believe that normal people DON'T have sex except to procreate. Giving? Just gross. Why would anyone want that? Why not just jerk it of no one is going to be home anyway?
> 
> I am blown away that people don't see the connection between this attitude and their lack of sex, particularly if there formerly was sex. How can you not see that your manliness is absent when you want sex "given" to you?


Huh?  This does not compute. Do you hate sex, or do you just hate it with the person you're with?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

LD people shouldn't marry HD people. And vice-versa. It's a miserable match. I did it for 20 years before I flew the coop for my own sanity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> NP,
> 
> I generally agree with you that a husband "asking for sex" is unmanly and could be a turn-off.
> 
> ...


Bear in mind that my posts have been in the context of a pattern of a husband wanting more sex than the wife does. (Yes, I know this goes the other way too. I have no experience there so simply have nothing to add to that conversation.) What you propose, "one date night per month" is nothing like what my husband did. And I agree, I would not want to live like that either. What he did was simply very honestly told me what he envisioned his life like. 

I don't know what an "adequate response" looks like. I know that I am very grateful that my husband never asked for an adequate response but helped me learn and grow to a different place with his strength and kindness.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I think that's an extraordinarily unfair thing to say. I've read enough of Richard's posts to know that he doesn't feel that way.


Oh Richard, I did not mean that that is YOUR intention. I know I am responding to you, Buddy. But it has to be said.

My point is that can be what it FEELS LIKE to the woman being asked to provide sex the same way she might provide laundry service or dinner.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> Huh?  This does not compute. Do you hate sex, or do you just hate it with the person you're with?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not sure you are reading the same thread I am. I LOVE sex. I LOVE sex with my husband.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wilson said:


> 1. They may not have a lot of sexual experience before they get married.
> 
> 2. They may not have been in many long-term relationships.
> 
> If someone has just had a few short-term relationships, they may not truly know how they feel about sex. The desire you have for your partner at 3 months is different than at 10 years. In the first year or two, the hormones in your brain are amping up your sex drive. When they fade, then you find out what your base sex drive. If you haven't had many multi-year relationships, you may not truly know your base sex drive.


^This.

My wife had never been with somebody longer than ~3 years (actually just under), until me.

Coincidentally, or not, it took roughly 3 years for our sex life to start to wane. So perhaps there's some truth to this.

So for somebody who has never really reached that "next level" in a relationship - whatever that level is - then they truly don't know how they'll react once they hit it, do they?

In the case of my first marriage, we spent nearly 7 years dating, and not living together, then 7 married and co-habitating. The first 7 years were wonderful. The second half, notsomuch.

In both cases, they had previous sexual experience. What one would call a "healthy" amount, given their respective ages when we met. They both knew what they liked, how they liked it, etc. No issues there. Sex wasn't new for either of them. What WAS new was length of relationship.

Some people (and I include myself in this) like sex, period. I want to have sex with my wife just as much as I did when I first started dating her. The length of time, the familiarity, living together, etc. has no bearing on my desire for her.

Unfortunately, many people are not like this, and either require or prefer variety, or something new in order to stoke the fire.

In the case of my ex wife, she sought that out and got her fill. With my current wife, I don't believe she's a risk for that type of thing, as sex just isn't on her radar, really. If she were to leave me at some point in the future, I'm sure she'd enjoy a decent sex life again - for 2-3 years, or until that relationship hits the next level, then basically just forget about it, much as she's done in our marriage.

My ex wife, on the other hand, I wouldn't trust her if I were her husband, knowing what I know. If she got bored of having sex with me, she'll get bored of having sex with him, at some point. That's not my ego speaking, that's her own personality.

So to sum up, in addition to Richard's types of LD people, I also believe there are types of people regardless of LD/HD.

Those who, whether LD or HD, don't get "bored" of sex with their partners. Frequency aside, they don't desire something "new" at any point. They only want their partner, even if it's once or twice a month (or year...)

Those who, whether LD or HD, simply stop desiring sex with their partners (due to familiarity, "same old, same old", etc.) and generally can't be bothered with sex with anybody. They remain faithful to their partner, but perhaps sex ceases entirely, or occurs extremely rarely. It's just not on their radar, with anybody.

Those who do get bored of sex with one person, and seek it elsewhere. LD's included. Sex may fall anywhere on the scale of importance from "extremely" to "not very", but they'll still eventually seek it elsewhere, if for nothing other than variety.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> one of the mysteries is that my wife gives every indication of really enjoying sex - and says she does so. She just wants it very rarely. Its almost as if she feels that it is wrong, or a waste of time to have sex too often.


Again, Richard, I think we have the same wife. So many of your posts resonate with me, and although it's not fun subject, I'm glad somebody else is experiencing pretty much the exact same things as I am.

Like you, I love my wife, and "live with" this issue. It's not worth divorcing over, or losing her. Yet here we remain, with no answers and a lot of frustration.

My wife seems to thoroughly enjoy sex when we have it. Not once have I ever felt like she was doing it because she had to, or "for me". It's always been mutual, and she always enjoys it (to varying degrees of course, it's not amazing every single time!) There's no faking. She's highly orgasmic, has multiples, switches positions, takes the reigns occasionally, you name it. There's no "star fish", no pity, none of that.

But it's night and day. During sex, you'd swear she's a nympho and can't get enough.

Makes no sense to me, or to her, either. She readily admits she doesn't understand why there's such a lack of desire - until it's happening - all the while fully admitting she genuinely loves sex and orgasms.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

woodyh said:


> Richard, I like your break down of LD spouses, I think mine is the LD "Clueless", her interest is just low and doesn't understand men or women with high drives.
> 
> She controls all the sex.


Yes, but once you tell her that you're out the door unless things change, she won't be clueless anymore. 
I did not plan this but her "ah ha" moment came when I got drugged in a bar restaurant by some supermodel bartenders that wanted to pick me up. Told my wife every single detail so she could understand that I am desirable to the opposite sex and also weak in that regard. If she was not going to step up to the plate and give me a shot to rock her world, sooner or later, one way or the other, someone else would.

Thankfully she invested the effort and now very much enjoys sex with me. 25 years in she is having orgasms that I thought only existed in my mind. All she had to do was let go and enjoy. After all, it's not like I asked her to jump off a cliff.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Richard,
> 
> Same duration, same overall marital happiness.
> 
> ...


I stopped asking questions after sex and ONLY spoke positive reinforcement. "THAT was great!" "you look so beautiful with my ### in your mouth." "that was the best orgasm I have ever had." "I love to see you cum." etc.
No questions, just tell her how beautiful and sexy she is. After a time, she will become that person.

When we first got married my wifes bj's were unremarkable at best. 25 years later she is a friggen vixen that drives me out of my mind. I believe this is due in part because of positive reinforcement.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I disagree on this point.
> 
> The best thing I ever did was go skydiving. I did it three times and never got around to doing it again.
> 
> ...


This is why I believe scheduled sex is great. No initiations necessary and MUST be prioritized. Takes out two variables that are difficult to manage.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

alexm said:


> Like you, I love my wife, and "live with" this issue. It's not worth divorcing over, or losing her. Yet here we remain, with no answers and a lot of frustration.


I feel the same, except I have come to a different conclusion. I don't want to be on my death bed in 35 years and look back on a loveless, sexless life that I just "lived with". I refuse to squander my one chance at happiness in life. I refuse. My ancestors didn't die for me to live an unhappy life. I reject the idea that I have to sacrifice my happiness for my kids by "living with" a bad marriage. I am not doing my kids or myself any favors. If her LD leads to divorce, then so be it. I am confident that outcome (divorce) will be better, because it's hard for it to get any worse. Living a long life with a loving, caring, affectionate person is all I want and I will not stop until I find it.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think in any cases this does happen.(certainly for me it does). I (and I'm sure many other HD people) make every attempt to do all I can for my wife in bed - most of our lovemaking sessions are more aimed at pleasing her than me. 








Hopeful Cynic said:


> snip
> 
> Why can't the HD person approach sex with an attitude of 'giving' to the LD person? Initiate not as a request for sex, but as an offer for sex. Offer the LD partner some physical pleasure, at the possible expense of your own. If it's clear that your own pleasure is to be secondary to the LD person's, they might be more receptive.
> 
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

NS has a good point - about how the LD person feels. Its the tragedy of these relationships:

HD: feels rejected, unloved. "why won't she do such a simple thing to make the person she loves happy?"

LD: feels constantly pressured, unwanted. "All he cares about is sex, he doesn't value anything else about me".

There is a fundamental difference in opinion about the meaning of sex: is it an integral part of love, or is it a fun thing that a couple occasionally do together. 





NobodySpecial said:


> Oh Richard, I did not mean that that is YOUR intention. I know I am responding to you, Buddy. But it has to be said.
> 
> My point is that can be what it FEELS LIKE to the woman being asked to provide sex the same way she might provide laundry service or dinner.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Ok, this one is interesting Richard but honestly, my wife probably could fit in most categories from time to time-

Medical LD: Physical issues, drugs etc have removed someone's sex drive, but if the problem were fixed, the drive would return.

I believe BC pills decrease her drive, I have seen evidence that her drive is stronger when off the pill. 


Situational LD: This is someone who would enjoy sex under the right conditions, but their partner is not providing those conditions. Sometimes it is nothing the partner an do, but often the partner is flawed in themselves, their behavior, or how they act in bed. (The wife of a man who just wants quick fcks an BJs could well not want sex).

I think she fits this because when we get away together, her sex drive will also go up. So, if I could afford to take her away more often, her drive would be stronger. We can go away for two days and have sex 4-5x, that is the equal to 2 or 3 months when at home. 

True LD: Someone who doesn't want sex much - no matter what the circumstances. Nothing their partner can do. I see 4 sub groups:

True LD - absolute: Sex is so unpleasant that the LD doesn't want it. This is usually obvious early in the relationship.

This one doesn't fit my wife/marriage. 

True LD - selfish: This is someone who doesn't really want sex but is willing to use it to get what they want. The classic bait / switch: all excitement and passion until they have "caught" a mate. That may come back under threat of divorce but only as long as needed.

I have to say this thought enters my mind when I think about my wife overall-was it bat and switch, or was it the early hormones when we met, she was the aggressor early on for sure. Made me think she would be all over me when we finally were together 24/7. I was wrong. 

True LD - clueless: Someone who doesn't want much sex and honestly doesn't understand that their partner does. Thinks that "normal" people have sex just to have babies, or maybe missionary once a month. They find their partner's interest amusing or possibly pathetic, but not important.

This really fits her to tee, she is clueless despite my attempts to educate her through the years. She believes our sex life is VERY much the norm, and based on what many of my friends say-we talk about it quite a bit, we are the norm for couples in their mid 40's with teen kids. She has admit sex is not priority, her kids and job are higher on the list for sure. 

True LD - giving: Someone who doesn't want sex, but understands that their partner does, and provides it out of love. The partner may not even be aware that they are with a LD.

My wife can be giving, I believe that there have been times during our marriage she has given of herself for my happiness, I hate to really even think about it that way but I know she is a special person and she doesn't want to make me unhappy-that is not her. But I have taken this away from her for the most part because I don't initiate with her, so she doesn't have to say no or give in when she really is not in the mood.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> She has admit sex is not priority, her kids and job are higher on the list for sure.


This is what I'll never understand. She admits that your happiness is last on her list of priorities. This is unacceptable.

She's probably on the top of your priority list (if she isn't, make it so and then revisit).

Tell her that since you're at the bottom of her list, you're moving her down to the bottom of your list. And then make it happen.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> I only agreed to forsake ONE ACTIVITY with all others.
> 
> I'm free to play tennis with whomever I like.
> 
> ...


My point (which I'm obviously having a hard time making) is that it is *entirely possible* that a woman can enjoy sex with her husband and still not do it very often.

If this is the case, then a different set of actions is called for.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Buddy, I totally get your point and yes, she and my kids are top priority in my life. It is not that I don't think she cares about my happiness, more that she believes my happiness is less important-or less a priority at this point in time (sexual happiness). Early in our relationship, I was a higher priority for sure. Her mentality is that other things in life take on more importance-the day to day stuff, and sex is just not that big a deal. To her our sex life, maybe 1x every two weeks, is what the normal/average couple our age is like. But honestly, she doesn't care what other people are doing or not doing-she is so wrapped up in her kids and job. If I take her away from her norm, she becomes a more sexual person. We have gone away for weekends before, we will have sex 2-3x a day, where at home we might not have sex 2-3x in a month or even two months.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UMP said:


> Yes, but once you tell her that you're out the door unless things change, she won't be clueless anymore.
> I did not plan this but her "*ah ha*" moment


This. The truth is, we are all human. Words are just not as useful for communication as actions. People have to work to be not selfish. It is a fact of humanity. My husband has told me several times how important something is to him only to let it slide a day or two later. I REALLY "got it" when the rubber was going to hit the road that this was a Really Big Deal to him. That meant that to really solve this issue I had to face some of my resentment head on rather than skirting the issue and getting by day by day.





> came when I got drugged in a bar restaurant by some supermodel bartenders that wanted to pick me up. Told my wife every single detail so she could understand that I am desirable to the opposite sex and also weak in that regard. If she was not going to step up to the plate and give me a shot to rock her world, sooner or later, one way or the other, someone else would.
> 
> Thankfully she invested the effort and now very much enjoys sex with me. 25 years in she is having orgasms that I thought only existed in my mind. All she had to do was let go and enjoy. After all, it's not like I asked her to jump off a cliff.


Several decades here too. And it rocks.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Richard made a very insightful comment about pressure. 

So - at risk of seeming truly strange: 

The only two sexual things I've ever done with M2 are: Initiating (which I very rarely do anymore), and actually having sex.

I don't behave in an explicitly sexual manner towards her. Never have. 

I compliment how she looks, sure. But it's pure aesthetics:
babe, you look great in that

That said - she gets a high level of attention and a lot of non sexual touch. And humor and playfulness. 

All of those things seem to produce a strong connection. 

Well maybe there is one thing. The wrestling/physical dominance thing has a sexual subtext. But even that is not really explicitly sexual. 

Even back in the first decade of marriage when we were close to daily - I didn't vibe her or flirt with her. 

I kind of let her do that to me. And then respond. 

And all of that was due to not wanting to create a sexually saturated environment where she didn't think I saw her as a person. 






Buddy400 said:


> This is what I'll never understand. She admits that your happiness is last on her list of priorities. This is unacceptable.
> 
> She's probably on the top of your priority list (if she isn't, make it so and then revisit).
> 
> Tell her that since you're at the bottom of her list, you're moving her down to the bottom of your list. And then make it happen.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

UMP said:


> "you look so beautiful with my ### in your mouth."


I don't recommend most people try this one on their wives or girlfriends! Just saying.

:grin2:


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
would anything other than his threatening to leave have done it. By "threatening" I mean any statement of the form "if our sex life doesn't improve, I want a divorce". 

I really really don't want to go that route with my wife. I don't actually want to leave - the rest of our lives together is too good - but she seems to really not realize that sex is important to me. On one of our rare occasions where we actually argued about it, she basically said "you are like a kid who just wants dessert all the time". ]






NobodySpecial said:


> This. The truth is, we are all human. Words are just not as useful for communication as actions. People have to work to be not selfish. It is a fact of humanity. My husband has told me several times how important something is to him only to let it slide a day or two later. I REALLY "got it" when the rubber was going to hit the road that this was a Really Big Deal to him. That meant that to really solve this issue I had to face some of my resentment head on rather than skirting the issue and getting by day by day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Is there nothing your husband could have done to be sexually attractive to you, or was it that he was unwilling to do what you needed?

Might you have fallen into the trap of using sex as a bargaining tool and no longer thinking it was for you as well?







Zanne said:


> This is such a complicated subject, but it interests me because I know it played a part in my now failed marriage of 27 years. I hope to have a healthier mindset on this subject as I move forward in life.
> 
> According to Richard's list, in my marriage I fell into the "Situational LD" category. By most definitions we had a sexless marriage. As in, months would go by without intimacy. Since I was "the gatekeeper," this would cause my husband much frustration and we had numerous fights about sex. The sad thing is, we both had normal sex drives.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,

The sort of dark comedy here is that, UMPs approach works great for his marriage. 

It wouldn't work in mine. 

That said, there is a common gear grinding process that frustrated HD's engage in which I believe to be exceptionally toxic. 

This is the - can't read my wife - so I initiate very frequently. And do so in the face of a really high rejection rate. 

That conduct has no other analog n the marriage. There is nothing which is really important to your wife, that she initiates in the face of a 90% failure rate. 

Because creating a very high failure rate - messages that marital synchronization isn't important. 

It also creates some amount of subtext that: I'm asking you to do something TO you, more so than WITH you. 

I also believe there is a raw frequency below which - the stress is far greater than the upside. 

I could see having that type conversation with M2 - if we approached that type frequency. 

The way that works is, this isn't working for me. At that frequency, we should just stop entirely. 

Obviously the whole dynamic of the marriage shifts at that point. 

But there are a LOT of people on TAM, who would be happier with their sex life - not having sex at all - because it's such a trigger for anxiety and rejection. 

It's also an excellent gauge of how they really feel about the experience. In a lot of cases, the LD partner will just shrug. 




alexm said:


> I don't recommend most people try this one on their wives or girlfriends! Just saying.
> 
> :grin2:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> would anything other than his threatening to leave have done it. By "threatening" I mean any statement of the form "if our sex life doesn't improve, I want a divorce".


I don't know how I would have reacted to that since that is not what he did.



> I really really don't want to go that route with my wife. I don't actually want to leave - the rest of our lives together is too good - but she seems to really not realize that sex is important to me. On one of our rare occasions where we actually argued about it, she basically said "you are like a kid who just wants dessert all the time". ]


I honestly don't know what you could do.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> I also believe there is a raw frequency below which - the stress is far greater than the upside.
> 
> I could see having that type conversation with M2 - if we approached that type frequency.
> 
> ...


At one point, my wife and I had a similar conversation. She had told me that it just did not matter if she had sex anymore. I told her I would stop initiating and stop pursuing her for sex. She freaked. Now, our conversation was not calm, but rather heated. I had no read on it at the time due to being too emotional. But looking back, it was clear she did not want to lose that connection.



MEM11363 said:


> That said, there is a common gear grinding process that frustrated HD's engage in which I believe to be exceptionally toxic.
> 
> This is the - can't read my wife - so I initiate very frequently. And do so in the face of a really high rejection rate.
> 
> ...


Yep. It very much became a "me" thing rather than a "we" thing. The nightly initiation and rejection was my way of applying pressure to get my needs met. Epic fail.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Zanne said:


> I know it's not approved of here, but I am very happy with my boyfriend. We are a much better match and there has never been an issue regarding the physical side of our relationship. Maybe things will taper off eventually, but we currently have sex almost every day, occasionally more. Yes, even during my period. Sometimes I'm more into than other times. Sometimes I just do something for him. But I don't play games anymore. I just don't feel the need. There is no pressure and we are very open with each other and respect each other. As I said earlier, I never want to go back to what I had before. Even if this relationship doesn't work out, I will know what a more healthier sex life looks like and I won't settle for less.


This is probably the best way to handle it. Twenty-five+ years ago when we were first dating, we also had sex almost daily or multiple times per day. It slowly got less-and-less and now it's been over 3 years without (I'm staying for the kids). Our immaturity, lack of experience, and just not understanding how sex drives change over time meant we didn't fully understand where we'd end up. Of course we've discussed this issue--many many times--but there was never any long-term improvement. Looking back, I should have left long ago when it was clear things were not going to get better. Instead, we slogged along making our lives more complicated, which makes it harder to leave. Once a couple realizes sex is going to be an permanent issue, it's probably best to break it off at that time.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Far,
So - that's kind of why we rarely have any tension.

When M2 says - do u want to connect?

I glance at her and quickly map that to - her desire level. 

If I read desire, it's on. If she is just making sure I'm not feeling ignored - I usually smile and say 'soon'. Which means in the next day or two. 

If I am feeling edgy I say: tomorrow (in a definite tone)

This is just a low key synchronization process between two people who trust each other to be decent. 




farsidejunky said:


> At one point, my wife and I had a similar conversation. She had told me that it just did not matter if she had sex anymore. I told her I would stop initiating and stop pursuing her for sex. She freaked. Now, our conversation was not calm, but rather heated. I had no read on it at the time due to being too emotional. But looking back, it was clear she did not want to lose that connection.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep. It very much became a "me" thing rather than a "we" thing. The nightly initiation and rejection was my way of applying pressure to get my needs met. Epic fail.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Far,
> So - that's kind of why we rarely have any tension.
> 
> When M2 says - do u want to connect?
> ...



That seems rational. 

Is it passionate?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It was Sunday - yesterday. Whole body on fire. And seemed good for M2 also. 

The only near certain path to a hot encounter with M2 is to spar just before. Fighting, scratching and biting gets her worked up. 

Honestly - my base nature - is too civilized for her - WRT sexual compatibility. I need to remind myself to crank up the edge. 




marduk said:


> That seems rational.
> 
> Is it passionate?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,
1000 percent agree with this. 

And honestly, that is a very solvable issue provided the rest of the marriage is good. 

No question at all that my ability to get M2 to work with her responsive (but not totally reliable) desire is based on the fact she is overall very happy with me. 





Buddy400 said:


> My point (which I'm obviously having a hard time making) is that it is *entirely possible* that a woman can enjoy sex with her husband and still not do it very often.
> 
> If this is the case, then a different set of actions is called for.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> Buddy, I totally get your point and yes, she and my kids are top priority in my life. It is not that I don't think she cares about my happiness, more that she believes my happiness is less important-or less a priority at this point in time (sexual happiness). Early in our relationship, I was a higher priority for sure. Her mentality is that other things in life take on more importance-the day to day stuff, and sex is just not that big a deal. To her our sex life, maybe 1x every two weeks, is what the normal/average couple our age is like. But honestly, she doesn't care what other people are doing or not doing-she is so wrapped up in her kids and job. If I take her away from her norm, she becomes a more sexual person. We have gone away for weekends before, we will have sex 2-3x a day, where at home we might not have sex 2-3x in a month or even two months.


When you take her away for the weekend, bam, her two highest priorities are magically gone! She's off work, and can't be called in. She's away from the kids (who I assume are being cared for by someone else) and knows she'll only be called on in an emergency. She isn't distracted by seeing chores that need doing (I'm stereotyping by assuming housekeeping is likely another of her priorities here!) because she's in a nice clean hotel room. She can finally relax and spend time on more selfish pleasures.

It's not that she's not a sexual person in the rest of her life; she just doesn't feel able to express it with everything else she's got going on. Her norm may very well be having sex a couple of times a day. Right now though, she's sacrificing her sexuality in favour of these other important things, and is just blithely assuming you're mutually making the same sacrifice as happily as she is.

Grown adults make lots of sacrifices for their children and prosperity. She likely feels resentment about it sometimes. But she probably thinks you're on the same page as she is and would be very surprised to learn you're building up resentment at HER instead of at the situation (parenting and work responsibilities, etc).


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Great post cynic, and I think you are correct. But if I am being honest here, the resentment has gone away big time since I stopped initiating with her. Some have suggested this makes her ripe for an affair-but honestly, I think it takes the pressure off her. Deep down, when I would initiate and let her know I wanted her, I KNOW she didn't like saying no to me almost every time. She is not that type of person-but I think she simply couldn't get her brain and body to say yes. Now that I don't initiate, she doesn't have to reject me. Yes, it means I have less chance for as much sex as I want-the theory if you don't try, you don't have any chance is true. BUT, it has helped me a lot because I would do things throughout the day-both in my mind and in person with her-a quick kiss, a neck rub, flirting/laughing, and have full intentions of us having sex on a given night, but by the time we were heading off to the bedroom, she was exhausted from her day and would say not tonight. I would be upset and had a hard time hiding my frustration-which in turn made her upset. After dealing with this scenario enough, finally I just told her-I am a green light, ANYTIME you feel the need I will be ready-sound asleep even, wake me up. She actually has done this a few times in the past. 

I have not scheduled any away time in a year or two, because we don't have the time or money primarily but also because I keeping hoping she will just say, we need to get away-I will take it from there but she doesn't say it-and honestly that bothers me. I could find the money, and we could MAKE the time but I am just not going to do it right now because it just makes me feel like I am doing it for the wrong reasons-just to have sex. Granted, sex is a benefit from getaways, no doubt, but I just want to feel like she wants to be away with me. Funny thing is, or maybe not depending on how you look at it, last two times we have gone away, I have told her I am booking something-she just says ok. Just before we are about to go she will say, I am not sure we should go-I have so much I need to get done-I just say, nope, already paid. We get to the place we are staying, chill for a little bit and then it is on, and then we go to dinner and it is on again. Then we watch TV/movie, it is on again. We go to sleep, get up and it is on again. I feel so wanted, I feel so much love and connection, then later that day we go back home and it might be two weeks before we have sex again. I feel the love/passion, and then it completely disappears. I get that when you are away, it allows you to relax and enjoy, but I just can't see how a person can be such a light switch.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

PAPS18 said:


> I have not scheduled any away time in a year or two, because we don't have the time or money primarily but also because I keeping hoping she will just say, we need to get away-I will take it from there but she doesn't say it-and honestly that bothers me. I could find the money, and we could MAKE the time but I am just not going to do it right now because it just makes me feel like I am doing it for the wrong reasons-just to have sex. Granted, sex is a benefit from getaways, no doubt, but I just want to feel like she wants to be away with me. Funny thing is, or maybe not depending on how you look at it, last two times we have gone away, I have told her I am booking something-she just says ok. Just before we are about to go she will say, I am not sure we should go-I have so much I need to get done-I just say, nope, already paid. We get to the place we are staying, chill for a little bit and then it is on, and then we go to dinner and it is on again. Then we watch TV/movie, it is on again. We go to sleep, get up and it is on again. I feel so wanted, I feel so much love and connection, then later that day we go back home and it might be two weeks before we have sex again. I feel the love/passion, and then it completely disappears. I get that when you are away, it allows you to relax and enjoy, but I just can't see how a person can be such a light switch.


Well, then, you are doing it backwards! Plan MONTHLY weekends away. Or just single nights if you can't spare a whole weekend. Make them predictable commitments to your marriage, so you can both clear your plates of stuff that needs doing. Alternate who picks the destination, so she can be part of the planning, and neither of you will feel like it's a weekend to be about sex.

It's circular. The more you get away with each other, the more you will feel connected and the more you will WANT to get away with each other.

Right now you have the opposite direction circle going on. You don't feel connected, so you both don't do much to renew the connection.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> How does one not know about a person's religious and sexual attitudes before marriage? I mean if you married someone who was basically dishonest in order to hook a spouse, there are bigger fish frying than sex.


Please clarify. Are you saying:

1. This is the victim's fault for being victimized, or
2. The marriage is doomed when one of the parties is like this.

Or something else entirely?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

tech-novelist said:


> Please clarify. Are you saying:
> 
> 1. This is the victim's fault for being victimized, or


I wonder why so many people are fixated on blame? If you marry someone without getting to know their religious or sexual views, in what way are you (rhetorical you) victimized? If lied to...



> 2. The marriage is doomed when one of the parties is like this.
> 
> Or something else entirely?


I think it is very unlikely to make a good marriage with someone who married under false pretenses.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> I could see having that type conversation with M2 - if we approached that type frequency.
> 
> The way that works is, this isn't working for me. At that frequency, we should just stop entirely.
> 
> ...


We had that conversation a year ago. Our marriage is immeasurably improved. Of course, we don't have any sex. But the hugging and affection is way up. And she smiles at me with a look in her eyes that was never there when the issue of sex loomed between us.

Not a solution for everyone. But if you aren't truly willing to leave, then giving up entirely is much better than an empty threat.

And frankly, if your LD spouse is willing to give up sex entirely, then the HD should think long and hard about whether they really want to continue having sex with that person at all. Took me a long time to realize I don't. Hopefully other HDs aren't as dense as me.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> We had that conversation a year ago. Our marriage is immeasurably improved. Of course, we don't have any sex. But the hugging and affection is way up. And she smiles at me with a look in her eyes that was never there when the issue of sex loomed between us.
> 
> Not a solution for everyone. But if you aren't truly willing to leave, then giving up entirely is much better than an empty threat.
> 
> And frankly, if your LD spouse is willing to give up sex entirely, then the HD should think long and hard about whether they really want to continue having sex with that person at all. Took me a long time to realize I don't. Hopefully other HDs aren't as dense as me.


Sorry, but if you are willing and able to put up with this (without going insane), then you aren't really HD.

A real HD person can't and won't put up with it. He/she will find another partner.

Note that I'm not criticizing you for your decision, just pointing out that it is inconsistent with being HD.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

tech-novelist said:


> Sorry, but if you are willing and able to put up with this (without going insane), then you aren't really HD.
> 
> A real HD person can't and won't put up with it. He/she will find another partner.
> 
> Note that I'm not criticizing you for your decision, just pointing out that it is inconsistent with being HD.


I use HD and LD in the relative and situational rather than the absolute sense. I am higher drive toward my wife than she is toward me. If she were with someone else, maybe she would have a higher drive than she has for me. 

And maybe I have a lower drive than most men. I am in my 50s and I am down to daily masturbation from 2 or 3 times per day in my teens and 20s and 30s. I never said I don't orgasm frequently. I just don't involve my wife in my sex life anymore.

And please understand, no one ever accused me of not being insane.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Olivia,

You raise what has been my favorite topic of late. Synchronization.
Emotions conduct. They flow through us to our partner. 
And flow from them to us. 

A ton of marriages are totally asynchronous regarding anxiety levels. 

The primary radiates anxiety - while talking about a problem. Their partner is now anxious, and not very helpful. Maybe even actively unhelpful. 

It's a part of the Mars Venus thing. What happens though, is the anxious person learns to not talk about it. Since doing so causes conflict. 

It makes for a disconnected marriage. 






OliviaG said:


> I'm not sure but I've come to suspect (at least in my case, maybe not generally) that a partner's low drive can down-regulate your own over time. If H and I have an encounter that he's not really into it will now turn me right off for a couple of days. I need an enthusiastic partner. I wonder if that's what happened?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I wonder if in my case it's because, being female, my desire level is (at least partly) responsive? Maybe that's why I need enthusiasm whereas it seems that some men can make themselves content with duty sex? Or does this down-regulating happen to men to?


Maybe.

I would say duty sex is not cool unless it has been a really long time, and even then it is really just okay.

Sort of like crawling across the desert all day to find a pool of dirty, questionable water. Sure, it will quench your thirst, but it is far from ideal.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Olivia,

Absolutely ROTFL here. 

It absolutely does. So let's decompose sex into:
The physical component: Raw craving, hunger, desire.
The emotional component: Wanting to feel connected, or desired or wanting to be generous with your partner.

Take a simple situation. Partners get along great and are really into each other. The 'higher drive' partner is more easily down regulated if the emotional component is more what drives them. 

People who prioritize connection, are typically more connected to their partner. So - big shocker - when that person they are highly connected to isn't really feeling it - that creates a serious downdraft. 

So this is where - THE HD's determination and skill - either come together in a magical way - or people make quite the big mess of things. A skilled HD can up regulate their partner - and I'd say that is fairly common in happy marriages. 

The reason down regulation is more common - is that you can down regulate in both constructive and destructive ways. 

You can't really up regulate destructively. 

There is a point where - the down regulation slams headlong into raw biology. This is the place where most HD folks are when they arrive at TAM. Their partner is attempting to or already has down regulated them into extreme frustration. 






OliviaG said:


> I wonder if in my case it's because, being female, my desire level is (at least partly) responsive? Maybe that's why I need enthusiasm whereas it seems that some men can make themselves content with duty sex? Or does this down-regulating happen to men to?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> I'll speak from my own perspective. I HATE being touched, as a rule. I always have. Even as a kid, friends would clap me on the back and I'd instinctively shrink away. Then I'd make up some BS about having a sunburn to keep from having to explain why I hate being touched. The truth of the matter is, I have no idea why I dislike it.
> 
> The thought of getting a massage from a professional gives me chills.
> 
> The only person who's allowed to give me a massage, foot rub, etc is my wife, and I quite enjoy it coming from her. Back when I used to have a full head of hair, she used to cut it for me. LOVED it.


Same way. My W and I went away in December and as part of our Christmas gift from my mom she got us a couples massage (yuck). In the past she has gotten me gift certificates for massages which have mysteriously disappeared....

Anyways, decided to go through with it, the guy giving me the massage spent a freaky amount of time on my feet / toes .... Ugghhhh ... I don't even want to think about it now ...issed:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> I wonder if in my case it's because, being female, my desire level is (at least partly) responsive? Maybe that's why I need enthusiasm whereas it seems that some men can make themselves content with duty sex? Or does this down-regulating happen to men to?


Meh, duty sex, I would rather not bother and just go to the movies by myself lol.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Same way. My W and I went away in December and as part of our Christmas gift from my mom she got us a couples massage (yuck). In the past she has gotten me gift certificates for massages which have mysteriously disappeared....
> 
> Anyways, decided to go through with it, the guy giving me the massage spent a freaky amount of time on my feet / toes .... Ugghhhh ... I don't even want to think about it now ...issed:


Ew.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I wonder if in my case it's because, being female, my desire level is (at least partly) responsive? Maybe that's why I need enthusiasm whereas it seems that some men can make themselves content with duty sex? Or does this down-regulating happen to men to?


I think age and T levels have a lot to do with it. 20 years ago I'd have probably been OK with very frequent duty sex. 

Not OK with it now and there is no down regulating but even a 50+ year old male has more T than pretty much any women. 

I do beat my head against the brick wall much less often now, hardly ever actually, I let her initiate for the most part. That is not down regulating but the cumulative effects of a massive # of rejections.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> Ew.


I was seriously waiting to hear "This little piggy" ...

My W thought it was hilarious since she knows how I feel about this stuff ... we will see how she feels when we end up in counseling over :crying:


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I wonder if in my case it's because, being female, my desire level is (at least partly) responsive? Maybe that's why I need enthusiasm whereas it seems that some men can make themselves content with duty sex? Or does this down-regulating happen to men to?


It's been a long time since I was sexually starved, but I don't recall encountering a down-regulating effect.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> How does one not know about a person's religious and sexual attitudes before marriage? I mean if you married someone who was basically dishonest in order to hook a spouse, there are bigger fish frying than sex.


It's amazing how a religious attitude can affect a marriage. My husband is catholic and it's difficult to change his attitude towards sex. It's like if I want to try something different he has no interest.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Olivia,
Yeah - that's tough. I have never rejected M2 when she is - determined - to connect in a unidirectional manner. 

The reason is, that I don't want her to feel like it isn't acceptable for her to be - not turned on. 

Besides, half the time she doesn't know if her responsive desire is going to kick in. It would be a lot of pressure on her if I were to say: hey if you aren't gonna get turned on, don't bother. 

That said, I can definitely tell when she's feeling obligated as opposed to generous. I pass on the obligation stuff. 

I don't think it's easy to be LD, especially if you have a conscience....





OliviaG said:


> I can't up-regulate him, probably because his desire level is not responsive. It's a hormonal thing with him, it's not a problem with our relationship; of that I'm entirely positive. My body remained stubbornly turned on no matter what he did for months, but now it's starting to down-regulate when he seems to be "doing me a favour". Another surprising thing I've learned about myself.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I wish to return to the original subject matter. The 'types of LD'.

The dimensions of this are:
- Their raw sex drive
- Their level of generosity / selfishness
- Their raw physical desire for you
- Their level of emotional connection to you
- The degree to which sex causes them to feel more connected to you 

This set of factors, sort of defines the envelope within which stuff happens. Or doesn't. 







MEM11363 said:


> Olivia,
> Yeah - that's tough. I have never rejected M2 when she is - determined - to connect in a unidirectional manner.
> 
> The reason is, that I don't want her to feel like it isn't acceptable for her to be - not turned on.
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

A self aware LD... Not many of them. Lots more "sex once a month is normal" or worse LD folks out there.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
please don't fake. Can you enjoy pleasing him - just for the sake of making him happy - and with the expectation that he will be happy to do the same for you? (assuming you aren't doing something that is physically uncomfortable).




OliviaG said:


> Yes, it would. This is where I feel that I am in between a rock and a hard place right now. I'm afraid that turning him down would make him feel bad and/or resent me. The problem is that I can't seem to get my body to cooperate under these circumstances anymore so he ends up feeling bad anyway because he can't facilitate the O he knows I need. I've never faked it before, but have wondered lately if I should at times like this, for the good of our relationship. That seems so very wrong though; I just don't know how to handle it.
> 
> There's more to this, but it probably should be discussed in its own thread some day.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Olivia,

Just to avoid any doubt here, it is your husband who is the LD in your marriage, yes? You are the HD?

And fwiw - I've sort of employed a compound message to M2 from the very beginning:
- There is nothing defective about you - we are just different - and I'm flooded with testosterone.
- I absolutely expect you to make an effort to meet me in the middle where ever that happens to be.
- Don't pretend, or fake anything related to sex - whatever is true - is true whether or not it's comfortable.

One of the results of that message was at the low point, M2 was maybe reaching the rapture 25% of the time when we connected. And that was - hard on my ego. 





OliviaG said:


> Yes, it would. This is where I feel that I am in between a rock and a hard place right now. I'm afraid that turning him down would make him feel bad and/or resent me. The problem is that I can't seem to get my body to cooperate under these circumstances anymore so he ends up feeling bad anyway because he can't facilitate the O he knows I need. I've never faked it before, but have wondered lately if I should at times like this, for the good of our relationship. That seems so very wrong though; I just don't know how to handle it.
> 
> There's more to this, but it probably should be discussed in its own thread some day.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Olivia,

Was it ever the other way around? 

Who has been the LD for most of the marriage?




OliviaG said:


> Right now, my desire level is much higher than his is, yes.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
do you think he enjoys pleasing you even when he isn't into it himself? It really is possible to enjoy making your partner happy as long as there is a sense of overall balance in life. 

I give my wife massages. I don't particularly enjoy them but I am very happy to do it because it makes her happy. 

If not, then I agree its really difficult. 




OliviaG said:


> I love nothing more than pleasing him. I'm talking here about a situation where he really doesn't desire any sexual activity but wills himself to get into the mood for my sake because he knows I need it. All done with love and a giving spirit on his part. But if I know he's not really into it and will get very little out of it himself, it turns me off, quite powerfully. It didn't used to, but now it does and it worries me.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I suspect that you want to be wanted. The physical pleasure isn't the main goal, but instead you want him to desire you.

(same for me). 

I don't know any way to do that. He can enjoy pleasing you, but if he doesn't really desire you (at the time) there is little that can be done.





OliviaG said:


> Yes, he absolutely enjoys pleasing me; this is really what makes our situation so tricky. He loves to please me and is generous even when he's not wanting anything for himself. I think it's my biology that just turns me off when I know my partner is not getting a lot of pleasure of his own. Maybe my own testosterone level is waning or something, I don't know.
> 
> I used to be able to enjoy his "gifts" of this nature and was very grateful for them. Now though, for reasons that I don't understand, once it becomes clear to me that he's not really into the session himself, that it's just for my pleasure (although I know he's happy to do it), I get turned off. I might be turned off for a couple of days if this happens. Not in general, but with him (I may still have to MB to get rid of the tension).
> 
> I can't seem to get control of whatever part of me causes that to happen. If it happens he feels bad and I feel bad. I'm afraid of putting a negative cycle in motion this way, but I can't seem to figure out the right way to handle it. I want to avoid any negative associations with sex at all costs. I want our easy, happy sex life back, somehow.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> You're absolutely right. The problem is, how to handle it?


Light teasing. Stoking the fire a bit when you depart for work in the morning. Telling him at that time how much you want him, and where on your body you can't wait to be touched by him. Tell him what you will do to him later.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Sometimes all it takes is a bit of novelty. A change of location or circumstances. Novelty gets parts of the brain firing that may have been dormant for a while.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I've done all that. Have explored every avenue of trying to up-regulate his desire. It doesn't seem to do anything to increase his desire, but what it does is send him the signal that I'm in need.
> 
> Best case scenario: He'll make sure to initiate something and try to give me what I need. And then, well, this is where I have the issue with me getting turned off if he's not really into it for his own pleasure too.
> 
> Worst case scenario: He feels pressure to perform.


What does he do for fun?

Here's why I ask. I went dove hunting last year. I hadn't been dove hunting since I was a kid. I had a blast, and for some reason it caused me to run home and take it out on my wife. For me, doing new fun things often has that effect. Novelty.

My wife wasn't sending me a message--I didn't feel pressured. It had nothing to do with sex at all, just shaking off the cobwebs.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

If only I knew, I wouldn't be wasting so much time here. 




OliviaG said:


> You're absolutely right. The problem is, how to handle it?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Olivia,
I'm 53 - keenly aware my T levels are lower than they were even a decade back. 

IF - we got to where you're at - and M2 was higher drive - I'd adjust my lifestyle to crank up my T levels. The right mix of strength training and diet makes a big difference. 

Testosterone can be a crazy powerful thing. 




OliviaG said:


> I've done all that. Have explored every avenue of trying to up-regulate his desire. It doesn't seem to do anything to increase his desire, but what it does is send him the signal that I'm in need.
> 
> Best case scenario: He'll make sure to initiate something and try to give me what I need. And then, well, this is where I have the issue with me getting turned off if he's not really into it for his own pleasure too.
> 
> Worst case scenario: He feels pressure to perform.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> The way I see it, my only two options are to refuse his "gifts", (which I know would hurt him), or to accept his gifts and take the chance (very high) that I will get turned off (which I know will hurt him). I don't like my options. Is there another option I'm not seeing? I hope there is.


Is there something HE can do for you that would be meaningful? You'd have to tell him of course...

I was having trouble wrapping my mind around your question because well, I'm not that guy. I'm ready to go at the drop of a hat. 

But you know, sometimes that drop of a hat starts off with a comment of "I'll give you 5 minutes" or something similarly annoying. Not really in to that. I could pass or I can put a little effort into warming her up some at least and that usually works. 

But, sometimes it doesn't and you can tell she isn't going to get there. She does have a move where she'll lightly dig her nails in my back a bit, among other subtle things, that let's me know she's at least moderately engaged and we can both be OK with that.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I love nothing more than pleasing him. I'm talking here about a situation where he really doesn't desire any sexual activity but wills himself to get into the mood for my sake because he knows I need it. All done with love and a giving spirit on his part. But if I know he's not really into it and will get very little out of it himself, it turns me off, quite powerfully. It didn't used to, but now it does and it worries me.


This is very interesting. I never thought of it the other way around. Sometimes when I am not as in lust as I usually am, I can tell my wife is not into it. I never thought that my lower desire could effect my wife to feel the same way.
On the flip side, if I pump myself up with some porn, Viagra, wine and get some rest, I am ready to go. 
It seems that the more I want my wife, the more she wants me.
Apparently the reverse is also true.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Olivia,

That is a LOT of love flowing in both directions. 

Lot of commitment. Honesty. Damn girl - you have lost the thread. You are both putting the other first. 

I never read stuff like this on TAM. This is some genuine 'Gift of the Magi' type stuff. Short story. I'd say a top 10 short story of all time. 

A couple reminders. 

Deception Rules: (these are M2's rules - she doesn't ever say them explicitly, just lives them)
1. No lying. Lying is proof positive you don't fully trust your partner. Definitely no lying about core stuff like orgasms. 
2. Any painful truth is digestible, when it is delivered inside the larger truth that you love and are committed to your partner. 
3. It's ok to NOT say everything that's on your mind, if you just aren't quite ready to. 

-------
That would maybe express something like this - in our world:

Babe, We're both doing everything right - our overall connection is strong. Let's not get too hung up on the actual results right now - whatever they are. In the meantime I need you to know I'm grateful for everything you're doing. 

And then - wait to see if you get the male patterned - solely 'result focused' push back. Which will be some version of - I'm not getting you to the rapture and that means I'm failing at some level. 

The best response to that is to shake your head and say: Do not apologize to me for doing your best. You have nothing to apologize for. Nothing. 

--------
And yes - I've been a participant in just such a conversation. Very helpful. 

--------
It does help if one partner is able to truthfully say: This will work itself out fine for us, it always does. In the meantime, Carpe Diem.






OliviaG said:


> He's doing this actually. He's been 100% devoted to a really strenuous exercise regime and diet and has had huge success in many respects: lost the body fat he tried to lose, is sleeping 100% better, etc., etc.. He's got another month of that before he wants to get T levels tested again and will consider treatment.
> 
> I guess I'm afraid of screwing up our relationship in the intervening time. I don't want to be the cause of a downward spiral; actually I don't think it's my fault as I can't help it. But I'm worried about my reactions shaking his confidence and also about the situation seeming to have gone on for long enough that it's causing me to be turned off by him on some primitive level. It especially worries me that the effect lasts for a couple of days. Maybe I should just make myself unavailable as much as possible (as in not physically present) until he's ready to get T replacement, because I feel like otherwise there's a chance of things taking a nosedive. I really want to prevent that. Or maybe I'm worrying too much.
> 
> To be honest I'm exhausted with trying to figure it out and to avoid disaster for so long now. I don't even know if I'm thinking straight about it anymore.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I don't understand what you're asking. Have read your comment over a few times, but something's going over my head, sorry. Could you explain what you mean by something he could do for me?
> 
> I think I'm the problem because it's my body that turns off but it seems to be out of my control. I can't think my way out of it or fantasize my way out of it; nothing seems to stop it from happening. I really don't think he can do anything to help me other than display some primal lust somehow. It's probably impossible for him to do that often enough with low T levels though.


Don't know what to tell you. If my penis stopped working tomorrow and my wife was raring to go I'd use other techniques to make her happy and I'd be happy to do it. No problem at all. Do you ever do non-PIV sessions?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I'm learning all kinds of things about myself and him that I never knew before. I guess this is where us aging people pick up our wisdom..


I even give myself an extra squirt of testosterone the day before and day that we're going to have sex. Everything helps. 
I LOVE it when I lust after my wife. The more, the better, but just like you it's something that is there or it's not there.
However, I do everything within my power to get the lust as high as possible.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Fozzy, that kind of novelty probably will work. I've seen it work in the last few months and will make use of it as much as I possibly can. But it doesn't seem easy to sustain.


Just don't do anything on your neighbor's patio furniture without getting their approval first ...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

UMP said:


> This is very interesting. I never thought of it the other way around. Sometimes when I am not as in lust as I usually am, I can tell my wife is not into it. I never thought that my lower desire could effect my wife to feel the same way.
> On the flip side, if I pump myself up with some porn, Viagra, wine and get some rest, I am ready to go.
> *It seems that the more I want my wife, the more she wants me.
> Apparently the reverse is also true.*


The bolded I have noticed as well, we both feed off of each other.

As far as pumping myself with Viagra, porn, and wine, haven't need to go that route yet lol.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> But if I know he's not really into it and will get very little out of it himself, it turns me off, quite powerfully. It didn't used to, but now it does and it worries me.


That's actually quite touching... You love him so much that your satisfaction is partly from him being satisfied. That almost feels like the ultimate expression of love. I've certainly felt less motivated when I couldn't get my wife to have her O... I want a shared experience. It's almost like the sharing of pleasure magnifies your own experience. At least for me... That's why I don't want sex or a BJ. I want the whole shared, connected experience of making love!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> Yes, it would. This is where I feel that I am in between a rock and a hard place right now. I'm afraid that turning him down would make him feel bad and/or resent me. The problem is that I can't seem to get my body to cooperate under these circumstances anymore so he ends up feeling bad anyway because he can't facilitate the O he knows I need. I've never faked it before, but have wondered lately if I should at times like this, for the good of our relationship. That seems so very wrong though; I just don't know how to handle it.
> 
> There's more to this, but it probably should be discussed in its own thread some day.
> 
> ...


If you believed that he was genuinely enthusiastic only providing you pleasure, would that do the trick? Or not?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I've done all that. Have explored every avenue of trying to up-regulate his desire. It doesn't seem to do anything to increase his desire, but what it does is send him the signal that I'm in need.
> 
> Best case scenario: He'll make sure to initiate something and try to give me what I need. And then, well, this is where I have the issue with me getting turned off if he's not really into it for his own pleasure too.
> 
> Worst case scenario: He feels pressure to perform.


It seems that many people are missing the point.

He's very happy to please you and does it with enthusiasm (I hope). It seems to give him great satisfaction.

The problem is your brain. You're programmed to be turned on by his desire.

Try to come up with mental scenarios that are hot but are not driven by a man's arousal: 

You've just made love for the third time; you've worn him out but you're insatiable; you still need more; you caress his face and gently direct him to where you want him; he smiles and begins to work his lips down your body....

You're getting a massage from a very handsome man; you've closed your eyes and almost drifted off to sleep; you become aware of his lips on the inside of your thighs.....

You're on the phone at work in a office with the door closed; you aren't wearing any panties; that handsome young intern slips into the office and closes the door behind him; he's kneeling down behind your desk and running his hand up your thigh; what's he doing? you shouldn't let him but you are filling with desire; you mute the phone and hope nobody asks you any questions....

Something like that


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> He's doing this actually. He's been 100% devoted to a really strenuous exercise regime and diet and has had huge success in many respects: lost the body fat he tried to lose, is sleeping 100% better, etc., etc.. He's got another month of that before he wants to get T levels tested again and will consider treatment.
> 
> I guess I'm afraid of screwing up our relationship in the intervening time. I don't want to be the cause of a downward spiral; actually I don't think it's my fault as I can't help it. But I'm worried about my reactions shaking his confidence and also about the situation seeming to have gone on for long enough that it's causing me to be turned off by him on some primitive level. It especially worries me that the effect lasts for a couple of days. *Maybe I should just make myself unavailable as much as possible (as in not physically present) until he's ready to get T replacement, *because I feel like otherwise there's a chance of things taking a nosedive. I really want to prevent that. Or maybe I'm worrying too much.
> 
> To be honest I'm exhausted with trying to figure it out and to avoid disaster for so long now. I don't even know if I'm thinking straight about it anymore.


That's probably your second best option


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Olivia,
I want you to read the 'Gift of the Magi' aloud - to each other. Doesn't matter who does the reading. 

Not kidding. It isn't long. It is what you're living. Read the story. 

Why I separate everything - into the mechanics and the spirit. 

Generally speaking, in a life partner - the spirit matters more than the mechanics. The proof of that - rests in your current dilemma. 

Best to understand that through the lens of another couple. Might be one of the best hours you two ever spend together.







OliviaG said:


> Oh, yes we do, but the issue has been not a mechanical one so much as that he just isn't really that into it himself. This has more of an effect on me than I would ever have guessed before it started happening.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Further thought on this leads me to believe that it isn't even the variety of LD that's the biggest problem.

It's when the HD reacts with the view that the LD must not love them and makes no effort to understand the variety of LD at work.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Olivia,

It is and always will be inherently difficult - to make a one sided encounter really work for you. 

It's because you are synchronized. And this - what we are discussing - is like going out for a jaunt when one of you is riding a bicycle and the other on foot. The speed at which you can synchronize is - mutually awkward... 



We watched the tv series 'Catastrophe' last night. The female lead is scary similar to M2 - except M2 is not nearly as profane in her speech. 





OliviaG said:


> Yes, you're right about that I think. I can be turned on without any influence from him (and frequently am), but once he is involved with me I need him to reciprocate in kind or something in my brain turns off.
> I know it's a mind game for me, but I can't get it under my control, or at least I haven't been able to lately.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Was reading some of these ending posts on here.. I totally get where Olivia is coming from.. I , too, NEED to know he wants to be there - for me to enjoy the experience.. when my drive sky rocketed .... I remember the 1st time I got mine and he says to me "I can wait till tomorrow"... this flush of emotions washed over me, kinda took me by surprise.. I didn't LIKE THAT AT ALL.... I wanted him to get his.. *I wanted him to WANT IT TOO !* 

Suddenly I got to see how men feel.. my husband has always felt this way.. he needs my pleasure -this *IS* his turn on.. 

My sex drive caused me to be over confident, even aggressive (signs of higher Testosterone).... I wasn't handling being patient all that well... unlike you Olivia.. *I would get ANTSY* and show it ...I found it hard to control my overt horniness.....if he came home and didn't throw some flirting my way... I might start a spat over this & give some attitude..

Or I'd turn on the Seductress & pull him upstairs taking his clothes off while I go down on him...(this was a much better option over trying to be patient waiting for him to come on to me)... he'd joke I was raping him.. He was enjoying it but sometimes he needed some help!

Since my husband ALWAYS wanted more sex.. he was very happy about all of this.. I don't think he ever thought he'd see the day.. so he wasn't about to complain.. I give him sooooo much credit for putting up with me though.. I was pushing his limits.. just so hard to contain during that time..

Beings he was always a *"giver"* by nature... I was hung up on this idea ..."Oh he's just doing this to please me" .... I'd accuse him of this sometimes ..... then I'd read umpteen articles on Viagra wanting to know if this was just a "automatic erection" -even if the guy might want to be somewhere else.. I wanted some type of assurance that if he GETS IT UP.. he truly wants to be there. 

So I was always happier if it was a NATURAL Erection.. I cared so much about this part of it. I would literally be at his beck & call any moment of the day or night he could do it.. AM was his best time..

My "moment of truth" where I was able to let this go, lay it down...was : we had sex the night before (I was starting to slow down I guess).. we were at it again in the am.. and I tell him I didn't think I could "go" again.. he stops.. looks sad.. I see moisture in his eyes.. he tells me he doesn't want me to slow down... I got it then.. I believed it.. after this.. I never questioned his desire again.. 

I guess that was sorta a breakthrough for me.. 

I really get off on pleasing him now.. even if I'm out for the count...and he knows it... I show lots of enthusiasm.... very thankful I had this "Mid life surge" .. it really opened my eyes to the thrill, the bonding, the giving, the antsiness/ emotional & physical a higher drive goes through when they just "need" & crave to have our bodies fused together..


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Last night M2 comes into the bedroom round about 9 and says - how about I take a shower? Gives me a big smile. I smile back and say - sounds great. 

Thing is - our youngest went to work at 1:00 PM. And M2 and I have been home since 6 PM. Decent chance that M5 will come home and interrupt us, M2 gets out the shower round 9:15 and I suggest tomorrow. Explain why. She gets it. Apologizes - but hey - lack of desire is just - painful. M5 comes home around 11. 

I was not very happy about the whole situation. Today is another day ---- . 







OliviaG said:


> That's a very good metaphor; so very true. I think I just have to stop worrying so much and wait this out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

What is the one - absolutely perfect - part of this mess?

Total absence of deceit. M2 doesn't say untrue stuff trying to make me feel better. I told her - babe, not mad just disappointed...

She gets it. 

Doesn't give me a sales pitch or worse, a legalistic defense of behavior. Later, drifting off she says what IS true: babe, I love you, desire you. 

Now desire - is a big word - and that's ok.....

I just say - me too, sleep well angel.....





MEM11363 said:


> Last night M2 comes into the bedroom round about 9 and says - how about I take a shower? Gives me a big smile. I smile back and say - sounds great.
> 
> Thing is - our youngest went to work at 1:00 PM. And M2 and I have been home since 6 PM. Decent chance that M5 will come home and interrupt us, M2 gets out the shower round 9:15 and I suggest tomorrow. Explain why. She gets it. Apologizes - but hey - lack of desire is just - painful. M5 comes home around 11.
> 
> I was not very happy about the whole situation. Today is another day ---- .


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The rope - that is love - is many stranded. And of those strands, respect and trust are - near unbreakable.....

I might GET mad, but never stay mad at M2 - for saying and or doing what's true. Whatever that is. 




OliviaG said:


> That's a very good metaphor; so very true. I think I just have to stop worrying so much and wait this out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

OliviaG said:


> I wonder if in my case it's because, being female, *my desire level is (at least partly) responsive?* *Maybe that's why I need enthusiasm whereas it seems that some men can make themselves content with duty sex? *Or does this down-regulating happen to men to?


I just read this post.. There is another Libido type that NEEDS Enthusiasm, excitement, Passion..... *"the Erotic"* ...(below).. 

This is how I've looked at this.. during that time...comparing men & women (though we're all a little different so this can be off too)...As a female, I've always felt we are Meant to be "the OBJECT of men's desire".. that men struggle more with sex on the brain (at least in their younger years)...so to be rejected in any way by our lover is crushing to us emotionally...we can be VERY SENSITIVE & even more so during certain times of the month !

So if we start to feel we can't "move" him, influence his WANT of us...we're going to take it very hard, it's going to weigh on us... we're going to question...are we loosing it? 

Let's face it.. a great majority of men are used to being around other men going on how they aren't getting enough at home..(my husband hears this all the time at work)..... if a woman is in the company of a # of females, we are more likely to hear how they wish their husband's would give them a break.. it'd royally suck to be around that if we're starving at home.. I'd want to go cry.. and tell those women how lucky they are..

I post these libido types every now & then.. you mentioned *Responsive Desire* (I guess this could also be considered *"Reactive" desire*)... this book helped ME sort things out with my husband to better understand each other .. I came to realize I was more an Erotic / Dependent...but that put extra pressure on my husband as us Erotics expect a lot !!! 

I come to realize he was a Reactive / Sensual .... that wasn't so bad.. there was a lot to work with there...after all he gets turned on by ME being turned on.. (win/ win)..... if I came to realize he was a "Stressed" , "Disinterested" or "Detached".. I would have been crushed... much more difficult to deal with... 




> Our differences in Libido types and Lover styles...so often there is a disconnect/ misnderstanding of our deep desires/fantasies / what sex means to us...that needs worked through...
> 
> So typical in Marriage.. one partner may crave more bedroom time over another
> 
> ...


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Those are interesting categories. I might have been Sensual to start with, but the more Dependent/Entitled my ex got, the more Disinterested I got.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Olivia said:


> Yes, it is emotionally crushing; that's a good way to describe it.
> 
> Exactly! I can't be involved in that sort of conversation now. My emotions around this are so intense that I can barely keep them under control. Watching passionate scenes on TV shows is even difficult. Luckily I don't watch much TV.
> 
> I clicked through to the link and ranked the sentences. According to the site I'm about an even split: *Sensual/Erotic/Dependent*.


Oh @OliviaG....in this area anyway...you are indeed my TAM twin...

I forgot to put the "Sensual" in there with the Erotic /Dependent ... I crave the emotional bonding too.. always!!... I would say I was primarily Sensual in our past over any of those.. when the surge hit.. the Erotic took over & I literally needed it on a regular basis (Dependent)...

Yeah I went off on a friend once on the phone telling her ...if I was her husband... I'd leave her.. (I need to watch my mouth).... She was telling me he cried once in front of her, but she didn't care, she wasn't "feeling it" (her words)..... It really ticked me off.. I just felt how maddening that would be.. to be HIM, and how much pain he was in... 

I know the guy.. he's a very faithful good man... 

During that .. I'd have given a speech to a roomful of women how blessed they are -- and that someday these tables may be turned , getting a taste of how it feels....they wouldn't like it one bit ... (at least directed to those who are treated well, loved & cared for)...

Some men may be bitter, after all those years, and enjoy seeing those tables turned too. 

I know you & husband never had any of that going on...you both enjoyed a robust sex life together.. very active.. you had a good foundation.. no resentment in the past.. this surely helps! 

My husband harbored some resentment towards me...boy did he conceal it well !  .. I didn't even realize till I opened up this subject and started digging...but that was all for the good.


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## imtamnew (May 13, 2013)

Nice thread. Thanks.

My wife likes sex. Between me starting and her orgasm....less than 2 mins.
That is how much time it takes and I dont even need to do PIV.

But she does not like to have an orgasm. If we kiss for a lil longer she will stop saying she will orgasm and hence STOP.

She honestly believes that her parents who have been married close to 50 years have had sex no more than 10 times in their life.

So what did this attitude of hers do. I never initiate. In fact even the thought of sex has become so repulsive to me that I just don't do it.
My body reacts...My heart freezes.

If it was not for the kids.....I would be gone so fast that you took more time reading this post.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

im_tam said:


> Nice thread. Thanks.
> 
> *My wife likes sex. Between me starting and her orgasm....less than 2 mins.
> That is how much time it takes and I dont even need to do PIV.*
> ...


What is the demeanor of her Father.. the walking dead?  Seriously.. how sad.. She's just using that as an excuse.. maybe they have a fine sex life. 

You can't believe she is O-ing? There is no way... When I read something like this.. alarm bells are going off..she has to be faking or she'd want them / NEED them on a consistent basis...

There is no feeling on the face of the earth that beats an orgasm !! it ranks like at the mountain peak...it's THE physical reward of sex .... It's almost a blessing we can't orgasm 10 times a day (well some young guys can I guess) or we'd never get anything done, we'd be wanting to take "O" breaks!


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## imtamnew (May 13, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> What is the demeanor of her Father.. the walking dead?  Seriously.. how sad.. She's just using that as an excuse.. maybe they have a fine sex life.
> 
> You can't believe she is O-ing? There is no way... When I read something like this.. alarm bells are going off..she has to be faking or she'd want them / NEED them on a consistent basis...
> 
> There is no feeling on the face of the earth that beats an orgasm !! it ranks like at the mountain peak...it's THE physical reward of sex .... It's almost a blessing we can't orgasm 10 times a day (well some young guys can I guess) or we'd never get anything done, we'd be wanting to take "O" breaks!


Her family is a little messed up when it comes to things like communication and simply loving each other.
They are all very very good people. They just have a very difficult time telling each other how much they actually love them.

My wife does not fake. 
She can be the complete drama queen but lying is not part of who she is.
If she does not orgasm in the 2-3 min time...she actually asks me to stop because its not comfortable for her. We resume after a short break. But she would not fake her Orgasm.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

im_tam said:


> Her family is a little messed up when it comes to things like communication and simply loving each other.
> They are all very very good people. They just have a very difficult time telling each other how much they actually love them.
> 
> My wife does not fake.
> ...


 I'm sorry im_tam ..what do I know...if your wife is getting hers.. that's at least one plus, might give you a little satisfaction...but it doesn't seem worth much considering... 

Before coming to this forum... I was surprised.. can I say "ignorant" of many of the things couples struggle with in the bedroom...I also never knew far more women get off by oral over PIV... 

Just seems so odd... why in the 1st 2 minutes doesn't it hurt, she loves it, then suddenly it does & it's an immediate







if it lasts a minute longer...you never even get to "fuse" your bodies together.... 

Here we have a woman who loves sex but the husband is miserable, finds himself "repulsed" & is thinking of leaving due to rigid time constraints..where he can't make love to his wife.. but she loves sex !! I guess she loves to "O" but only on HER TERMS and her terms alone, she wants a 2 minute Wham Bam, no after glow.... and it has little to nothing to do with love making or *shared* pleasure.... 

I'm just thinking.. It couldn't have always been this way.. or was it ?


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## imtamnew (May 13, 2013)

It has been this way since the start. Both of us were virgins and it was an arranged marriage.

For a long time I expected things to change and played along. Like an idiot.

But now I have moved on and made peace with myself.
It sucks. But life goes on.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

im_tam,

My wife is similar in that she ONLY wants straight up PIV with no frills. It's frustrating. The time constraint is somewhat different though. My wife has a difficult time with O'ing, and desires me to last as long as possible, which puts all the onus on me.

****TMI ALERT***
I'm wondering if your wife's discomfort with going over a couple of minutes--especially given her orgasmic ability--stems from the G-spot effect where as the woman approaches the threshold of a G-spot O (squirting) she feels like she's going to urinate. I can only imagine this can be simultaneously fantastic and uncomfortable. Has she ever made mention of anything like this?


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## imtamnew (May 13, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I can only imagine this can be simultaneously fantastic and uncomfortable. Has she ever made mention of anything like this?


YES.

I have explained that its normal. But all bodily fluids are dirty (according to her)....so she will never be able to enjoy her own lucky ability.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

im_tam said:


> YES.
> 
> I have explained that its normal. But all bodily fluids are dirty (according to her)....so she will never be able to enjoy her own lucky ability.


Shower sex.


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