# Pineapples, naughty neighbors and sex Oh My! The myths, misconceptions and the good, the bad and the ugly of swinging.



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

So my other thread spun so far off track with discussions and debate of swinging, that I figured it would be more efficient to just start a swinging thread. 

My general approach here to this topic will not be 'should' people swing or not swing. That is up for each couple to decide based on their own marital dynamics, ethics and moral compass. 

My position is that it is a thing, it is out there, it is a reality in modern marriage and consensual nonmonogamy is something facing marriage as an institution today whether a couple chooses to partake in it or not. 

My intent is not to persuade or dissuade anyone on it, but rather discuss some of the myths and misconceptions as well as some of the cold, hard truths and the good, the bad and the ugly of it. 

Some of us here on TAM have some real world experience with it. Some have honest questions and curiosities about it even though they have no desire to do it themselves. Of course there are those that think it sinful and wrong no matter the circumstances. And yes, I know there are some out there that are considering it whether they want to publicly admit it or not. 

So if you have any questions or concerns about what is taking place out there in the nonmonogamous world, feel free to post here. Some of us have had some real world experience in this arena. I personally have no desire to "convert" anyone to the dark side or challenge your values or mores. But there are so many myths, misconceptions and outright lies about the nonmonogamous world, I do have an interest in arming people with actual facts and perspectives rather than myths, legends and lies. 

My disclaimer here is that I am no longer active in that lifestyle and have not been in it for several years. This whole crazy pineapple thing has come along since I got out. Some of the other members here that may have had more experience with pineapples may be better able to explain how to display your pineapple properly LOL


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

My latest experience with anything involving the word "pineapple" was one of the greatest things I have ever done in my life. We did some amazing things that most people didn't even know about, while the whole world was screaming into the wind.
It had nothing to do with swinging. So my first question is this...


What about pineapples? What's the story there?


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

@oldshirt 
You. Did. NOT! LOL


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I'll start with the pineapple thing since I am seeing posts and material about that on conventional social media. I honestly do not know where or how that got started. When I was in the lifestyle, I have attended clubs and conventions and events in a variety of states across the country and never once heard any mention of pineapples. 

I suspect that this is some kind of urban legend that has taken on a life of its own and perhaps has become it's own reality. I have the feeling that some people started talking about pineapples and ended up hooking up out of the deal and things kind of took off from there. 

But when I was in the lifestyle, people met through websites and swinger clubs and events and there really weren't any kind of underground secret handshakes or decoder rings or anything like that. 

In fact for my wife and I and people that we knew personally, none of wanted anyone approaching us on the street or the grocery store or anywhere in our normal daily lives at all. People valued their privacy and discretion and did do or say anything to give suspect to any of our friends or coworkers etc. 

Like all aspects of life, some people are more open than others. Some don't try to hide it at all and probably welcome being approached. Others are very private and discreet and their closest friends and family have no idea and that is the way they want it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> I'll start with the pineapple thing since I am seeing posts and material about that on conventional social media. I honestly do not know where or how that got started. When I was in the lifestyle, I have attended clubs and conventions and events in a variety of states across the country and never once heard any mention of pineapples.
> 
> I suspect that this is some kind of urban legend that has taken on a life of its own and perhaps has become it's own reality. I have the feeling that some people started talking about pineapples and ended up hooking up out of the deal and things kind of took off from there.
> 
> ...


So...


Pineapples became a symbol that swingers use to advertise themselves to other swingers? 

I still have no idea what the significance of pineapples are to the swinger community...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

As'laDain said:


> So my first question is this...
> 
> 
> What about pineapples? What's the story there?


Some people think if you put an upside down pineapple in your grocery cart or set one out on your doorstep that means you are a swinger and some people actually believe that is how swingers find each other.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

As'laDain said:


> I still have no idea what the significance of pineapples are to the swinger community...


Neither do I and I was very active in that lifestyle for around 10 years. 

Maybe someone else can answer that.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> Some people think if you put an upside down pineapple in your grocery cart or set one out on your doorstep that means you are a swinger and some people actually believe that is how swingers find each other.


Wow. I remember hearing something similar about flamingo figurines in Wisconsin. Up there they called it "wife swappin'". 

I think that was mostly urban legend as well.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

My theory on the pineapple thing is it started at a larger partial take over event. For those who don't know in the lifestyle community some people/groups will organize and takeover or get together over a weekend or more at a specified location. My guess is at something like this a pineapple was used to identify yourself as part of the lifestyle group at the resort so attendees were not hitting on random people at the bars. From there some of the attendees took the pineapple symbol back to their local communities and the legend of the pineapple was born.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I think that swinging was very relevant to the last thread being that it was one man's disastrous decision to suggest it to his wife that led to it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

A Pineapple Is A Symbol Of Hospitality &...SWINGERS!


You'll be checking for pineapples in your neighborhood after reading this!




www.krmg.com


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> A Pineapple Is A Symbol Of Hospitality &...SWINGERS!
> 
> 
> You'll be checking for pineapples in your neighborhood after reading this!
> ...


Looks like Those of you with white rocks in your landscaping and garden gnomes and flamingos have been keeping secrets from us as well!!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Erudite said:


> @oldshirt
> You. Did. NOT! LOL


He's fearless, I tell you....FEARLESS!!!!!!! 

Lol!!!!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I think that swinging was very relevant to the last thread being that it was one man's disastrous decision to suggest it to his wife that led to it.


Oh c'mon Diana, that was so last week! 

He obviously should have avoided all that missed communication and should have came home with an upside down pineapple instead.


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## Angie?or… (Nov 15, 2021)

Uh oh! Our neighbor threw out his garden gnomes and we adopted them! I hope his friends don’t come looking for us 😳


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Angie?or… said:


> Uh oh! Our neighbor threw out his garden gnomes and we adopted them! I hope his friends don’t come looking for us 😳


But what if his friends are HOT!!


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

I recently grilled some pineapple:










am i a swinger now?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Talker67 said:


> I recently grilled some pineapple:
> 
> View attachment 82002
> 
> ...


Depends, is the plan to have a party and use them for couples to play ring toss with. Women on one side throwing men on the other side receiving?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Talker67 said:


> I recently grilled some pineapple:
> 
> View attachment 82002
> 
> ...


When should we all come over, and is clothing optional?


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Depends, is the plan to have a party and use them for couples to play ring toss with. Women on one side throwing men on the other side receiving?


It WAS!


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> When should we all come over, and is clothing optional?


Clothing, wat's dat?

but we had better wait until summer, is like 10F outside right now


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> My theory on the pineapple thing is it started at a larger partial take over event. For those who don't know in the lifestyle community some people/groups will organize and takeover or get together over a weekend or more at a specified location. My guess is at something like this a pineapple was used to identify yourself as part of the lifestyle group at the resort so attendees were not hitting on random people at the bars. From there some of the attendees took the pineapple symbol back to their local communities and the legend of the pineapple was born.


That is as good of a theory as any, presuming it was actually started within the swinging community in the first place. 

But I can't help wonder if it was actually something that got started as an urban legend in the nonswinging community and it just took on a life of it's own.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> Wow. I remember hearing something similar about flamingo figurines in Wisconsin. Up there they called it "wife swappin'".
> 
> I think that was mostly urban legend as well.


Either that, or most in South Fl swing. Almost every house has a yard flamingo in it 🤣🤣🤣


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> That is as good of a theory as any, presuming it was actually started within the swinging community in the first place.
> 
> But I can't help wonder if it was actually something that got started as an urban legend in the nonswinging community and it just took on a life of it's own.


I do know if you do a google search on it there is some pretty funny stuff. Like one I read was if you leave a pineapple by your front door at night you are looking for people to join you that night. Like who is putting a pineapple on their porch so any random person will come in to hook up. That cannot be a real thing. Even the wildest people I have met in the community wouldn't do something like that.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I do know if you do a google search on it there is some pretty funny stuff. Like one I read was if you leave a pineapple by your front door at night you are looking for people to join you that night. Like who is putting a pineapple on their porch so any random person will come in to hook up. That cannot be a real thing. Even the wildest people I have met in the community wouldn't do something like that.


My point exactly. We have hosted parties and have helped friends cohost their parties. 

The guest list was always strictly by private invitation only and if anyone were to show up at random (never happened) but they did, they would not have been allowed in. 

I never once knew anyone personally that had any kind of open-door, come one come all (no pun intended) policy on parties. 

And all of the clubs I have ever been to, you had to contact that club and go through their screening process before you'd even be given their location. a number of the clubs we have been to have had some kind of orientation and tour by the host prior to the party that new members had to attend prior to being allowed into the party. And if someone showed up not appearing as they presented themselves to be, they were shown the door. 

Things may have changed in recent years as the alternative lifestyles have become more accepted and dare I say it....normative. 

But back when we were first getting into it, it was still quite under the radar.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Either that, or most in South Fl swing. Almost every house has a yard flamingo in it 🤣🤣🤣


Wooo Hoooo! Party central!!!!


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

I would like to correct a few common misconceptions about the lifestyle that I know a lot of people have. Some that have been represented in threads prior. Others can add, correct or challenge, whatever they please. The community in general is a wide range and the interests and activities people engage in are extremely varied so there is no typical really, what I say is typical is what has been typical in our experience. 

1. People in the lifestyle are not trying to convert obviously uninterested people or couples. The types that would do this but they are broadly ostracized by the community. Most of us who have been active have probably dissuaded more people than we have helped enter. 

2. Married couples in the lifestyle only view sex as a physical act with no emotional bond associated with it. Some of us can separate the two all people can if they choose. For me there is a strong emotional bond involved in sex with my wife, I don't feel that with other women though. 

3. Husbands are pushing the agenda. Either partner can be the first to broach the subject there is no typical, but in my experience women generally run the show. 

4. The lifestyle is only about sex. This one is trickier because for some it is only about sex, and obviously sex is a very large part of it. Here on TAM mostly people discuss swinging and people generally seem to think of swapping etc. That is only one part of the broader community. We enjoy meeting and talking with others and sharing stories and building friendships based on this secret interest even when nothing sexual develops often it doesn't. 

5. People in the lifestyle are a tiny group. In the US alone the estimates are around 12-15 million people. You know some even if you're in small town USA. 

Thats a start anyway.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> And if someone showed up not appearing as they presented themselves to be, they were shown the door.


 The old "oh yah my wife wasn't feeling well so I figured I'd come alone" trick.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

You go there dressed as Sponge Bob, or Patrick, then the fun begins?? 😛

Anyway, I have zero experience and don't share my women, anyway, so it would never be for me....I just always wondered what it would be like, though...Something tells me it would be a let down like when you go to a topless beach and think you are going to see some sexy young hotties with a killer bodies only to find some old hairy bitties with droopy old titties....lol.

All joking aside, it has always intrigued me, so its kinda cool learning from those that have first hand knowledge...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> The old "oh yah my wife wasn't feeling well so I figured I'd come alone" trick.


yep, they would get pointed to the street. As would people that showed up visibly drunk or just obviously out of touch with what the life style was. 

And as party hosts, I have removed invited guests that just were not behaving appropriately and were making other guests uncomfortable. 

So for us and the people we associated with, setting out some kind of sign for any randoms to walk right in was out of the question. 

I'm sure somewhere, at some point someone has done something similar to that, but I would sure hate to be around there when it happened.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

hamadryad said:


> Something tells me it would be a let down like when you go to a topless beach and think you are going to see some sexy young hotties with a killer bodies only to find some old hairy bitties with droopy old titties....lol.


And that's just the men.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> yep, they would get pointed to the street. As would people that showed up visibly drunk or just obviously out of touch with what the life style was.
> 
> And as party hosts, I have removed invited guests that just were not behaving appropriately and were making other guests uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


Yah every semi public club we ever went to had people being removed. Usually a drunk couple or as a response to a complaint of over aggressive behavior. Some things get a warning somethings get an immediate boot. L'orange in Montreal was a membership club we went to a few times and when you first sign up for a membership they would go over the rules with you and explain what was a warning then expulsion and what was an auto expulsion. With all that clarity dummies still getting booted, yikes.


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## GaLaxya (Sep 26, 2021)

Monkeys like swinging too... you know... just saying...

Not everyone needs to be picky about who to ... with...

No worries, you won't be able to talk anyone into it.

There are still a lot of people out there prefering quality over quantity...


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

I want to start this off by saying that I am a pretty easy going guy and I have a live and let live philosophy when it comes to people who have a different lifestyle than me. With that said, here are my experiences and my take on it all.

I currently know of at least 2 couples in the lifestyle but things aren't all they are cracked up to be. Basically, it means the wife can sleep around as much as she likes or she has a BF on the side while the husband tries and fails to find another woman that wants anything to do with a married guy. So if you are a regular guy who is married and thinks swinging will be fun, just keep in mind that your wife/partner will likely have many more offers than you will so you'll just end up being a lonely cuckold.

When I was married, my ex wife made friends with a girl at work. This girl and her husband invited me and the ex wife over for drinks just to hang out. We later find out they were just trying to seduce my ex wife. We were basically being groomed to join in their games. No thanks.

Years ago, an old friend of mine from HS hit me up on social media to be friends. Fair enough since she and I were close back in the day. Turns out, she and her hubby were in an open marriage like I described at first where she basically slept around and she was hitting me up to be a FWB for her. I was engaged to my ex wife at the time and I told her what happened. I cut off all communications with the old friend and basically told her to F off.

A lot of the people I know who aren't in that lifestyle have reported similar experiences. IMO it's hard to be friends with these people since they will just end up trying to bang you or your partner or both. I know this much, if anyone tries to hit up my partner for this crap now, I will respond with violence, guaranteed. I'm cool with people living how they want but they really need to stop trying to get people to join their cult.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Enigma32 said:


> A lot of the people I know who aren't in that lifestyle have reported similar experiences. IMO it's hard to be friends with these people since they will just end up trying to bang you or your partner or both. I know this much, if anyone tries to hit up my partner for this crap now, I will respond with violence, guaranteed. I'm cool with people living how they want but they really need to stop trying to get people to join their cult.


What's wrong with someone taking their shot?

You can't know the answer until you ask. As long as you respect what the other party says, isn't violence a little over the top? Take it for the compliment it is, say no, and if the pressure continues, then you get to pop someone in the mouth.

When I was about 20 I had a gay man make an overt pass at me. I declined, by my friend kicked him out in the cold during a power outage over it. I always felt a little bad about that.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I would like to correct a few common misconceptions about the lifestyle that I know a lot of people have. Some that have been represented in threads prior. Others can add, correct or challenge, whatever they please. The community in general is a wide range and the interests and activities people engage in are extremely varied so there is no typical really, what I say is typical is what has been typical in our experience.
> 
> 1. People in the lifestyle are not trying to convert obviously uninterested people or couples. The types that would do this but they are broadly ostracized by the community. Most of us who have been active have probably dissuaded more people than we have helped enter.
> 
> ...



I would concur with almost almost all of this but will just add a few tweaks and nuances here and there. 

#1: is very true. One of the great fears of the nonswinging community is that swingers are out to get you in bed. I would challenge that there are A LOT more supposed monogamists that will try to cheat on their spouse with YOUR spouse that swingers that will try to get a nonswinging couple into bed. As was shown in the other thread, there is great risk to making an overature in the wild. When about every community has some kind of club or group and there are countless websites and phone apps and such, why risk hitting on traditional couple. Most swingers I know personal greatly value their privacy and discretion and intentionally avoid giving off any signs or signals to nonswingers. 

#2. While I agree with the general intent of that statement, it's a little more nuanced that separation of sex and emotions. Swingers are not sex robots. There's actually a lot of emotionality involved. It's fun! It's lively and there is often a lot of laughter and flirtation and banter and real friendships do develop. We still have friends that we get with even though we have been out of lifestyle for several years. There are a lot of emotions and at times even genuine affection but where it differs is you are having sex and fun with people you are not in a committed relationship with. There are emotions and attraction and desire but it's different than those of a committed, monogamous relationship. 

#3. there are a couple old sayings in the lifestyle that address this. One is, "the husband drags his wife to their first party but then has to drag her away from it at the end of the night." The other is, "The husband gets the couple into the lifestyle but it is the wife that keeps them there." There is a strong element of truth to both of these sayings. To the uninitiated it would seem that the swing lifestyle is means for the men to get more poontang. The reality is it is very FEMALE-centric and mostly about the women. For many women it is the first time in their lives that their sexuality has been embraced and accepted without shame or judgement. And I am going to dare to say this as well, but it is also sometimes the first time that they have had actual free choice in having sexual activities with someone they truly desire and are attracted to sexually be they male or female. A lot of women of my generation and prior married men that were the "Nice Guys" and who their families approved of because they would be good providers and fathers. In the lifestyle it is the women who pick and choose who they hook up with. It's basically a big Sadie Hawkins dance. YES, that does pose risk for the husbands. 

#4: I'm going to refer back to #2. I do think it is about more than just sex and hedonism. I think people want to feel sexually alive again after being in a somewhat socially mandated relationship and raising kids and paying mortgages etc for years and years or even decades. Speaking for myself, I wanted to be in an environment where I could be me and my wife could be herself and we could talk with people on a very personal and even affectionate and sexual level and not get my face slapped or sent to HR for sensitivity training. Much of our lives are very mandated by rules and policies and even actual statute laws to NOT be sexual and not get to personal. I wanted to be sexual and personal even if I wasn't actually having sex or going to have sex. I wanted to be able to tell a lady that I thought she was beautiful and sexy and that I'd love to touch her and kiss her and such. A few took me up on that offer. Many did not. But ALL were gracious and flattered and appreciated the compliment and the spirit for which it was intended and noone ever got upset or angry with me. The same is true for my wife, she is a beautiful woman but no one ever expresses that to her anymore because we live in such a regulated and restrictive world. She felt beautiful and sexy and accepted in that community regardless if she actually had sexual contact with someone or not. So IMHO it is about way more than just connecting genitalia. It was an environment where we could be fully human without shame or judgement or disparagement for being sexual beings. 

#5. I can't give stats or figures but I guarantee you that you know and associate with some swingers daily. There are some where you work. There are some in your church ( yes your church too @Diana7 LOL) there are some on your street. There are some immediately across the street from me LOL They are in your communities no matter how large or small.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Cletus said:


> What's wrong with someone taking their shot?
> 
> You can't know the answer until you ask. As long as you respect what the other party says, isn't violence a little over the top? Take it for the compliment it is, say no, and if the pressure continues, then you get to pop someone in the mouth.
> 
> When I was about 20 I had a gay man make an overt pass at me. I declined, by my friend kicked him out in the cold during a power outage over it. I always felt a little bad about that.


If someone knows the person they are hitting on is involved, they earned it. Like those people who invited my ex wife and I over for drinks. They were just trying to get us drunk so they could do things with my ex wife. There are lines you do not cross.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> yep, they would get pointed to the street. As would people that showed up visibly drunk or just obviously out of touch with what the life style was.
> 
> And as party hosts, I have removed invited guests that just were not behaving appropriately and were making other guests uncomfortable.
> 
> ...





happyhusband0005 said:


> Yah every semi public club we ever went to had people being removed. Usually a drunk couple or as a response to a complaint of over aggressive behavior. Some things get a warning somethings get an immediate boot. L'orange in Montreal was a membership club we went to a few times and when you first sign up for a membership they would go over the rules with you and explain what was a warning then expulsion and what was an auto expulsion. With all that clarity dummies still getting booted, yikes.


FFS. It's like a car accident. I can't help but stare even though I really, really do not want to, but then I really really do. 😂 

These rules are confusing to me.... sorta. the code of conduct makes perfect sense. What I don't get is how easily people would be breaking this code to the point that they need to be thrown out of a house party or club. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are both making it sound like this is a common situation. Go to club/house party. Expect someone to be removed. I know nothing of this life and a guy would actually show up and say, "Oh, my wife is sick."? Even I know that wouldn't fly. No way. In a hypothetical situation, I don't see how this would be difficult to follow a few simple rules (maybe "few" is incorrect. Maybe there are 20. I have no idea).

Then it hit me: Why would someone need to be "aggressive"? 

Wait a minute.......... Are sex plans NOT made prior to arriving to club/house party?! Do you go to these establishments to play the dating game?

First, I'll talk about the club. Fair enough. I get it. You have a membership to a club that could be "x" number of people across the entire city. I would assume you don't personally know all the members and you go out to the club to "see what happens". Same thing as singles going out and trying to hook up. 

But the house party? An invite only party? Again, I'm going to put myself into a hypothetical situation where I have somehow completely disconnected my heart/mind from my little head. Ok, so now my little head is in control. He's calling the shots. If that is the case, why would I go through the trouble of getting dressed up, go to a party to have sex.... and then not have sex? 

Am I seeing that wrong? 

Am I still not in the correct headspace to understand? Reason I ask this question is because I really never enjoyed the "dating game". If it isn't obvious, I prefer to be forward and blunt. When I "dated", I was looking for a woman that I would consider wife material. Obviously, my little head did the initial physical attractiveness "picking". We all have our preferences. Once I found my wife, I was very much, "Phew! Glad that is over!". I'm very introverted and am not interested in attempting to convince someone for sex once I would get to a party like that - especially considering all my wife would have to do is walk through the door and it would be a done deal. If I got to the point of sharing my wife, I can't imagine showing up to a party to strike out and my wife sleeping with other men - or is that just assumed how it goes? 

I honestly assumed these house parties went like this: A group of invite only people got to know each other over some period of time. Maybe all go out to dinner on multiple occasions. Have regular bbqs and whatnot. Everyone gets to know each other well ahead of time, then when a sex party comes up, pairings would be made ahead of time so its actually worth your while to show up to said party.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Enigma32 said:


> I want to start this off by saying that I am a pretty easy going guy and I have a live and let live philosophy when it comes to people who have a different lifestyle than me. With that said, here are my experiences and my take on it all.
> 
> I currently know of at least 2 couples in the lifestyle but things aren't all they are cracked up to be. Basically, it means the wife can sleep around as much as she likes or she has a BF on the side while the husband tries and fails to find another woman that wants anything to do with a married guy. So if you are a regular guy who is married and thinks swinging will be fun, just keep in mind that your wife/partner will likely have many more offers than you will so you'll just end up being a lonely cuckold.
> 
> ...


Women are always going to have more sexual opportunities than men. That's simply how Mother Nature designed the natural world. 

If Brad Pitt or Leonardo Decaprio wants to challenge Janet the night Clerk at Quick Trip to see who can bed more people over the weekend, Brad and Leo better be pumping the vitamins and viagra and give it their all and hope maybe between the two of them they might be able to get in the same ball park as Janet From Quick Trip. It's just how it is. 

You have to find a way to work with that system and not against if you want to be successful. In an open marriage where each is free to date and do their own thing, yes, a woman will have suitors lined up down the street all fighting for position where as unless the guy unusually good looking or very high status or something will just hear crickets chirping. 

This is something that all couples in the lifestyle have to address and make plans for. A few are ok with each playing separately. Many choose to either only play together or not at all. 

Back in my time, couples that tried to poach other people's spouses were very looked down upon and were never even considered members of the swinging community. Everyone kind of had their own definition of what a "real" swinger was. 

Does it happen in the world? Yes, crappy things happen in the world. Everything has a dark and there are unscrupulous people in the swinging/poly/open marriage community as there is in the supposed monogamous community.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> I currently know of at least 2 couples in the lifestyle but things aren't all they are cracked up to be. Basically, it means the wife can sleep around as much as she likes or she has a BF on the side while the husband tries and fails to find another woman that wants anything to do with a married guy. So if you are a regular guy who is married and thinks swinging will be fun, just keep in mind that your wife/partner will likely have many more offers than you will so you'll just end up being a lonely cuckold.


That's not swinging. That's an _open relationship_, which commonly have the exact problem you mention. Couples who swing mostly do it together, with other couples, or with singles where they both get to participate. We've done poly, swinging, and open, and they are VERY different from each other. Open relationships are the hardest, as one person often has little or no success, and that's almost always the man. Open relationships can work, but if you are looking for both to have comparable success, it takes a lot of compromise, rules, and work to accomplish. Generally, I'm not in favor of open relationships because they far more often lead to problems than other types on ethical non-monogamy.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> But I can't help wonder if it was actually something that got started as an urban legend in the nonswinging community and it just took on a life of it's own.


I've been hearing since I was a teenager in the late 80's/early 90's that eating pineapple makes semen taste better. I could see why that may be of interest to swingers. Maybe way, way, back when the idea pineapple makes semen taste better was a hot new item swingers started serving it at gatherings and an association between the two was born.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> FFS. It's like a car accident. I can't help but stare even though I really, really do not want to, but then I really really do. 😂
> 
> These rules are confusing to me.... sorta. the code of conduct makes perfect sense. What I don't get is how easily people would be breaking this code to the point that they need to be thrown out of a house party or club. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are both making it sound like this is a common situation. Go to club/house party. Expect someone to be removed. I know nothing of this life and a guy would actually show up and say, "Oh, my wife is sick."? Even I know that wouldn't fly. No way. In a hypothetical situation, I don't see how this would be difficult to follow a few simple rules (maybe "few" is incorrect. Maybe there are 20. I have no idea).
> 
> ...


Ha ha and there is the rub. There is no one simple set of rules other than be nice and respectful and compassionate towards people. 


I wish I could give you a study guide, have you take the quiz at the end and if you pass, hand you the keys to Babylon. 

But the truth is each individual, each couple, each group of friends, each clubs and even each city or geographical location has it's own temperments and nuances and codes of conduct. There are many similarities. And many differences as well.

In many ways it is truly like dating all over again. Dating is spending some time with someone getting to know each other to see if you are each the right match for each other or not for each of your own goals and agendas and job descriptions. 

This is the same but it is on a couple's level so instead of just matching 2 people's goals and agendas and boundaries etc, you are now trying to match four (or more depending on the situation LOL)

Yes it is harder and more complex and more moving parts. There is more risk. 

Everyone is a little different and each person and each couple will have their own set of paradigms and boundaries etc. It is a lot like dating to meet people and do that dance of getting to know each other and see how people click. 

Some people thrive in that environment. For others it is a nightmare. 

I personally know some couples that basically did it like being back in high school and they dated another couple and made some kind of pact of exclusivity and they did the dinners and barbecues and kid's birthday parties and such for a couple YEARS before there was any kind of sexual activities. 

And we've been with some couples that within an hour of the first handshake, the clothes were hitting the floor and there is an entire spectrum in between. 

Let me put it this way - like in vanilla dating, there is likely someone for everybody. 

But no one person is going to get with them all. 

It's kind of to each their own.

The challenge is in finding what works for you and yours.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> I've been hearing since I was a teenager in the late 80's/early 90's that eating pineapple makes semen taste better. I could see why that may be of interest to swingers. Maybe way, way, back when the idea pineapple makes semen taste better was a hot new item swingers started serving it at gatherings and an association between the two was born.


Hmmmm, I haven't heard of that but it makes y'wonder. 

Before a big party was coming up my wife would put me on a diet of pure pineapple juice and chicken breasts. You may have something there LOL


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

LATERILUS79 said:


> FFS. It's like a car accident. I can't help but stare even though I really, really do not want to, but then I really really do. 😂
> 
> These rules are confusing to me.... sorta. the code of conduct makes perfect sense. What I don't get is how easily people would be breaking this code to the point that they need to be thrown out of a house party or club. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are both making it sound like this is a common situation. Go to club/house party. Expect someone to be removed. I know nothing of this life and a guy would actually show up and say, "Oh, my wife is sick."? Even I know that wouldn't fly. No way. In a hypothetical situation, I don't see how this would be difficult to follow a few simple rules (maybe "few" is incorrect. Maybe there are 20. I have no idea).
> 
> ...


House parties are very different from clubs. Usually the house party is a known group and people are familiar with each other. But how do people get into the group? A new member gets invited to the group sometimes these people don't behave appropriately. The question about your wife hooking up and not you, that depends on the preset rules you have with your wife. If that is a concern of yours perhaps you would only be interested in a same room swap with another couple. There are parties that are known to be free for all orgy like environments but my experience those are rare indeed. You go to these parties to hangout with like minded people in an environment you can't find at a bar, the potential for play is always there sometimes it doesn't happen like that. People in the community are generally very welcoming and patient with new comers. Often in my experience at these parties we have "Ice Breaker Games". This can range from innocent to wild. Think spin the bottle with grown married adults up to a game the could have anything from light kissing to oral sex. The best party hosts develop the group of invitees with the intent of everyone having a good time, they usually have an idea of what each couple is into for the most part and may intentionally introduce newer members to specific couples they think they will hit it off with. So if you have some couples who prefer threesomes with other women they might have a few couples with bisexual women and husbands who just like to watch as one example. 

And most of the people I know want to know the people they play with fairly well on a personal level. We usually don't hook up with random strangers (at least not often). 

There use to be a show on one of the cable channels called Swing House. This wasn't a perfectly realistic representation of reality but it was fairly close. It was basically a house with a set of regular couples who all knew each other well and they would bring in a new couple every episode who was thinking about trying it out. There were episodes that ended up with the wife hooking up and the husband not. It was kind of an idealized version of reality but it gives a general sense of things. The show was really soft core porn and didn't do a great job showing the dangers one can run into but if your curious what a "Swingers party" might look like (again idealized version) that is it.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> ......My position is that it is a thing, it is out there, *it is a reality in modern marriage and consensual nonmonogamy is something facing marriage as an institution today whether a couple chooses to partake in it or not*.
> 
> My intent is ......t rather discuss some of the myths and misconceptions as well as some of the cold, hard truths and the good, the bad and the ugly of it.
> 
> ...


Never been part of the lifestyle. My wife, because of her body self image problems, would probably never agree to it.

However, when we were working with a Sex Therapist she had us discuss swinging and 3-somes a few times. The topics came up in both the Yes/No/Maybe list we filled out as homework and in watching some of the Sinclair Better Sex videos. Both were extensively discussed by us with the ST. The ST told us that at least in the group settings in the Sinclair "educational" videos, she had once been asked by the producer to visit a shooting and advice them about some things. Her impression was that in group settings there were some interesting dynamics going on in regards to voyeurism and exhibitionism.

So my curiosity question for those in the know:

What is the main motivation?

 Playful sex in a setting where sex is accepted
 Being able to relax among non-judgemental and like-minded people (a sense of community)
 Novelty of exploring different sexual partners
 Being able to have multiple sexual partners in a single night.
 Partners who are willing to try things your spouse is not willing to try
 Voyeurism
 Exhibitionism
 Thrill of something taboo
 Some of several of the above.

I have been to some nude beaches in my day. Even in my youth attended a nudist park. It was very prudish and sunbathing oriented.

However, as a 70+ year old couple our bodies are not what they once were. I would probably be pretty intimidated at being an eyesore, based on movie and TV representations of swinger events.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Generally, I'm not in favor of open relationships because they far more often lead to problems than other types on ethical non-monogamy.


I concur with the rest of your post but it wanted to touch on your point above before another squirrel runs across the screen and I get distracted. 

Yes, any kind of nonmonogamy carries risk. 

Heck for that matter monogamy itself carries a lot of risk. 

But not all risks are created equal. There is one facet of nonmonogamy that I believes carries a higher risk of loss of attraction and falling for someone else more than any of the others and that the Hot Wife/Cuckold scenario. 

I can't prove this with data and peer reviewed scientific study because there is very little if any legitimate scientific research into this stuff. 

But based on my personal research into nonmonogamy and my personal experience and the reported experiences of people I have known and being on swinger forums for years and now on TAM and other relationship forums for years, I think the practice that carries the highest risk (other than long term marriage and children that is) is the Hot Wife/Cuckold scenario. 

I think it can be done and there are people that have been doing it successfully for periods of time. But IMHO I think that is a situation that has the deck of a million years of evolutionary biology stacked against you. 

I agree with @Married but Happy that an open marriage where the female is out scoring with others (which will be extremely easy for her to do) while the male is at home basically spinning his wheels, sets up a very dangerous dynamic. 

However when it comes to a Hot Wife/Cuckold type scenario where the male is embracing that inequality and is getting off on it as a spectator sport, it's basically spraying it gasoline and pressurised oxygen into the powder keg. 

I know some will fail to see the difference but there really is a big difference between a couple who goes out and enjoys some sexy adventures together as a couple as part of their sexual dynamics as a couple where not only the women is getting sexual attention and interaction but so too is the man,,,,,,, is an entirely different scenario instinctually than a guy sitting in the shadows, spanking the monkey getting off on watching her getting it on with someone else.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> However, as a 70+ year old couple our bodies are not what they once were. I would probably be pretty intimidated at being an eyesore, based on movie and TV representations of swinger events.


First let me start here. 

I have the feeling the crowd is getting younger as alternative lifestyles become more accepted and normalised in general. 

But traditionally the swinging community has been largely in the mid 40s-60s with 70 year olds not being rare or shocking at all. 

The first club party we dared to go to in our local area was hosted by a group of long term swingers that were at least well into their 60s if not actual 70s and that particular club was geared towards the older crowd. 

I was early 40s and my wife was late 30s at the time and we felt kind of awkward being the babies as well as the new fish. We went to their orientation meeting which was a veritable gold mine and wealth of information. But we ultimately opted to not attend the actual party due to feeling so young and inexperienced. 

My point here is there is a 70 year old swinging community. The movies and the tv shows and magazine and internet articles are going to show the young and perfect bodies. But that is a far far stretch from the reality of real life swinger clubs and events. There is everything from perfect hard bodied 20somethings to everything and I do mean everything else on up.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> 2. Married couples in the lifestyle only view sex as a physical act with no emotional bond associated with it. Some of us can separate the two all people can if they choose. For me there is a strong emotional bond involved in sex with my wife, I don't feel that with other women though.


I have an issue with this statement. I'm not so sure all people can control their emotions as you suggest here. I think the fact that there are so many failed attempts at an ENM lifestyle is evidence that not all can, even if they would like to make that choice. Look at the husband in the wife swapping gone wrong thread. I think if you could choose to separate the two he wouldn't have been in a living hell for the last 7 years. I'll be honest, I have never had sex with no emotional connection since I've only had sex with my wife, but I've seen enough evidence to say that most people can't separate sex and emotion. 

Can you really turn emotional connection during sex off and on as you choose?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> What is the main motivation?
> 
> Playful sex in a setting where sex is accepted
> Being able to relax among non-judgemental and like-minded people (a sense of community)
> ...


I can't speak for anyone else but for me personally the answer to the above is - YES.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I have an issue with this statement. I'm not so sure all people can control their emotions as you suggest here. I think the fact that there are so many failed attempts at an ENM lifestyle is evidence that not all can, even if they would like to make that choice. Look at the husband in the wife swapping gone wrong thread. I think if you could choose to separate the two he wouldn't have been in a living hell for the last 7 years. I'll be honest, I have never had sex with no emotional connection since I've only had sex with my wife, but I've seen enough evidence to say that most people can't separate sex and emotion.
> 
> Can you really turn emotional connection during sex off and on as you choose?


I know your question was directed to Happy Husband and he can respond with his perspective. 

I myself disagree with the assertion that swinging is sex with "NO" emotion. To my that is the same as trying to drive a car with "no" gas in the gas tank. 

In MY perspective there is emotion and some times a lot of it. But it is not contingeant on a committed, exclusive, long term relationship. 

The relationship is not contingeant on the sex and the sex is not contingeant on the relationship. 

My wife and I had a marital relationship and home and family that was contingeant on a million things. We had fun and an extra layer of sexual fun and pleasure with other people, and we may have even had some genuine fondness and affection for them. But they were not an integral part of our relationship. 

Some people would refer to play partners as sexual adjuncts like a dildo or vibrator or massage oil etc. I personally think that's a little harsh, but the general analogy isn't really so far off. 

Other couples helped us bring an additional level of excitement and pleasure into our marital bed... as we did the same for them. Everyone came away happy and smiling. There were emotions involved. but it's a different set of emotions for different reasons.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> First let me start here.
> 
> I have the feeling the crowd is getting younger as alternative lifestyles become more accepted and normalised in general.


i wonder if we come back ten years from now, assuming TAM is even still operating....what it would be like?

i am going to bet that the norms of what is "acceptable" in a marriage will be MUCH more liberal than they are today.
For one thing, a lot of us spent our formative years with no internet, no porn, no idea really what various types of sex the were out there, and a whole lot of societal/religious shaming if you stepped out of the mainstream.

Jeez, all of that has changed with the current generation!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Talker67 said:


> i wonder if we come back ten years from now, assuming TAM is even still operating....what it would be like?
> 
> i am going to bet that the norms of what is "acceptable" in a marriage will be MUCH more liberal than they are today.
> For one thing, a lot of us spent our formative years with no internet, no porn, no idea really what various types of sex the were out there, and a whole lot of societal/religious shaming if you stepped out of the mainstream.
> ...


There's good and bad in that. 

I know the Religious Right has issues on the morality aspect of people being able to determine their own sexual dynamics, but there are some real world issues that come from the liberation of sexual behaviours and identities as well. 

I've hear it referred to as the Basking Robbins effect. Basking Robbins changed the world. Before Baskin Robbins if you ordered an apple pie ala mode at a restaurant, you got a piece of apple pie with a scoop of vanilla ice cream on it. If you ordered a bowl of ice cream, your server would ask if you wanted vanilla, chocolate or strawberry... and that was assuming they even had chocolate or strawberry. 

Then along came Baskin Robbins and now suddenly there was chocolate mint pastacio and expresso cream and blueberry cotton candy etc etc etc etc etc etc and the world now wanted options. 

If our grandparents wanted a car they would have to choose between Ford or Chevy. Half their friends would advise Ford. The other half Chevy. 

In our grandparents era, if you wanted to have sex, then you married someone of the opposite sex. If you wanted to have sex with someone of the same gender, you could face arrest and jail time or taken out and beaten to death. If you wanted to have sex with someone without being married. as a woman you could be institutionalized in a mental facility under the diagnosis of nymphomania and if you were a man you could be facing the barrel of her Daddy's shotgun or her brother's baseball bat. If you wanted to have sex with someone else's spouse, there were states where the laws were literally written that you could be shot and killed as long as you were caught in the act and there are countries today where it is still legal practice to castrate a man and douse a woman with gas and set her on fire if they were committing adultery. 

So in that sense, the world has changed for the better. 

The price is now people are confused and don't what to do or what to think. What was wrong is now right and what was right is now wrong. 

I started listening to Dan Savage's podcast recently and it's amazing the level of confusion and angst people are having over their sexuality.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I have an issue with this statement. I'm not so sure all people can control their emotions as you suggest here. I think the fact that there are so many failed attempts at an ENM lifestyle is evidence that not all can, even if they would like to make that choice. Look at the husband in the wife swapping gone wrong thread. I think if you could choose to separate the two he wouldn't have been in a living hell for the last 7 years. I'll be honest, I have never had sex with no emotional connection since I've only had sex with my wife, but I've seen enough evidence to say that most people can't separate sex and emotion.
> 
> Can you really turn emotional connection during sex off and on as you choose?


I don't know if I would say that exactly, In my experience in our endeavors I can honestly say I never experienced an emotional connection with any of the ladies we were with. But these were all mostly one off experiences. There was only two instances when we were with the same women more than once. If it was an ongoing thing with the same person my ability to shut off the emotional might vanish but I don't think so. It could be that my experience with threesomes with bisexual women is the man is basically a living sex toy. I liked these women on a personal level but there was nothing close to resembling the emotional connection created via sex with my wife. It's like that was fun maybe we'll run into you again some time. The swinging gone bad thread had nothing to do with emotions created by sex it was an ill fated bad idea gone wrong, it was a plan that never should have come to fruition.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I can't speak for anyone else but for me personally the answer to the above is - YES.


Good Answer mine would be the same. Our first endeavor which involved other people in the lifestyle was to go to a party with voyeuristic intentions. In the end it involved no one as we chickened out and didn't go in.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Either that, or most in South Fl swing. Almost every house has a yard flamingo in it 🤣🤣🤣


And some of them are actually real. Lord only knows what's going on there!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> The price is now people are confused and don't what to do or what to think. What was wrong is now right and what was right is now wrong.
> 
> I started listening to Dan Savage's podcast recently and it's amazing the level of confusion and angst people are having over their sexuality.


I got distracted and had to chase a squirrel. 

What I was starting to say is there are people having a real gender and sexual identity crisis out there. Every day On the Dan Savage podcast someone will call with a story sounding like this - a non-binary, bio female in a relationship with a cis-female lesbian is having some feelings for gender-neurtral transvestite bisexual bio male and is confused on how to integrate all those confusing feelings and labels. 

40 years ago her grandmother would have laid her out over the head with a heavy frying pan and when she came to, she would have been told that the Johnsons down the street are a nice family and their son would make a good husband. 

It is good to have options and it is good that people are no longer being attacked, denied employment and housing etc on an institutional level for being of a different lifestyle. But all of our choices and combinations and permutations can lead to a lot of angst and confusion and complexities that previous generations had no concept of.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Young at Heart said:


> Never been part of the lifestyle. My wife, because of her body self image problems, would probably never agree to it.
> 
> However, when we were working with a Sex Therapist she had us discuss swinging and 3-somes a few times. The topics came up in both the Yes/No/Maybe list we filled out as homework and in watching some of the Sinclair Better Sex videos. Both were extensively discussed by us with the ST. The ST told us that at least in the group settings in the Sinclair "educational" videos, she had once been asked by the producer to visit a shooting and advice them about some things. Her impression was that in group settings there were some interesting dynamics going on in regards to voyeurism and exhibitionism.
> 
> ...


My wife and I went to one party where we really didn't find anyone we hit it off with that particular evening so we just hung out and talked with the host couple who were 80 and had been in the lifestyles since the early 60s that was like taking a PHD course in the lifestyle these folks should have written a memoir. Average age at most parties we attended was probably 50ish. There are a lot of older couples who attend parties because they enjoy the sexy atmosphere and connecting with people. A good party will have people who are all very cool and welcoming. And it is has to be intimidating for every newcomer it was for me.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> The swinging gone bad thread had nothing to do with emotions created by sex it was an ill fated bad idea gone wrong, it was a plan that never should have come to fruition.


You can't really even call that a plan that should never have been. 

It was a no-plan and a complete failure to communicate and actually listen to what the other was saying. 

Assuming the post was even real, I can't believe that was really their first folly in 50 years. They were either a walking train wreck for those 50 years, or they are both getting some cognitive deficiencies.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I have an issue with this statement. I'm not so sure all people can control their emotions as you suggest here. I think the fact that there are so many failed attempts at an ENM lifestyle is evidence that not all can, even if they would like to make that choice. Look at the husband in the wife swapping gone wrong thread. I think if you could choose to separate the two he wouldn't have been in a living hell for the last 7 years. I'll be honest, I have never had sex with no emotional connection since I've only had sex with my wife, but I've seen enough evidence to say that most people can't separate sex and emotion.
> 
> Can you really turn emotional connection during sex off and on as you choose?


I should also point out the range of people is very wide. There are Poly people who seek that emotional connection with multiple people, for us we went about things in a way to specifically avoid the emotional and to reduce the risk of what making an emotional connection could create. I think now I would be less worried about that. I would also add we made friends that I would say we have an emotional connection with and care about enough to stay in contact with it's just not a sexually based emotional connection. We never had that with any of the ladies we were with. There's a fairly large sample size. Everyone's goals and desires are different.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I have never experienced emotion free sex, so the idea is completely foreign to me. It seems like it would be a high level form of masturbation with no emotion. I really don't want to be used as a dildo and I don't want my wife to be some guys Fleshlight masturbator. Something just seems so wrong about that.

On the flip side, having any emotions involved may even be a worse situation. I don't want to direct those kind emotional feeling at someone other than my wife. Quite honestly I'm afraid. What if I start falling for someone else? I am a biological machine and have all the weaknesses that come along with that. I've never tested myself in that way or on that level. What if had sex with another woman, even with the consent and in the presence of my wife, and my will power couldn't over come my biology and I make a strong emotional bond with her? Maybe this is an unfounded fear, but it is there and I would rather not temp fate putting my very happy marriage at risk for some physical gratification. Especially when my wife already provides ample physical gratification and intimacy.

As for my wife, I have no desire for another man to be looking into her eyes while she is having an orgasm. I don't want to hear her telling some dude to pump her harder as she orgasms. I don't want to hear him moaning and groaning as he orgasms while inside my wife. Even if she had a grand ole time I can't fathom gaining any sense of satisfaction out of that. Quite to the contrary. I am positive I would feel a sense of loss. 

My wife feels the same way as I do. We both feel that the strong emotional connection is what makes our sex as good as it is. Why would we risk that to add some form of lesser sex into the mix? Basically a bunch of ONS. 

I know my history impacts my perspective on this, same goes for my wife. I lost my virginity to my wife, then GF, when I was 16. It wasn't long after that I fell in love with her. She was a few years older than me (19), but only had 2 previous sexual partners, the last being her fiancé and BF of 2 years. That relationship started while she was in HS. I basically grew up and became a man while in a sexual relationship with her. I personally want to respect that piece of our relationship till the day I die. My wife's ex-fiancé was a serial cheater. Pretty bad when you are a serial cheater by age 20, and it never stopped for him. Anyway, once she figured it out, it was over, luckily for me  So we both have reasons why we are so dedicated to our monogamous relationship and I see nothing in the future that will change it. 

I think some people are wired for a ENM relationship and some are not. I know I'm not. Even after 30+ years together I still struggle with this little kernel of retroactive jealous towards her ex-fiancé. It is enough to know that I would not deal well with the whole of this kind of lifestyle and everything it would bring into our marriage.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Since at the begining I mentioned I wanted to address some of the myths and misconceptions, one of the biggest myths about the swinging community from the outside is that of it being a sexual free-for-all or that everyone screws everyone or that swingers are by necessity indescriminate or have no restraint or selection etc. 

I've even heard nonswingers say that one HAS to screw the party host or that you have to agree to have sex with everyone to get in etc etc (if that were true, I would've hosted a helluva lot more parties! LOL) 

But the truth is very very different and a lot less glamorous. The truth is people in the lifestyle are often very picky,,,, they are just picking people you wouldn't and picking to play in situations that you necessarily might not. Their criteria and circumstances are specific onto themselves. 

As I mentioned on another post somewhere, I would challenge that in many cases it is the first time a lot of women have truly chosen their sex partners based primarily on their own attractions and desires. Let me clarify a little further, at least in previous times, many women married men based on their family's approval of the man and based on his potential to be a good provider and father etc etc. Women were often discouraged and even shamed for exercising her own sexual choice and free will (that still goes on a lot in the Red and Black Pill communities and in the InCel communities because they aren't choosing them) 

For a lot of women it was one of the first times in their lives that they had free choice to pick and choose based on their own personal attractions and desires. That could be with women, it could be someone of another race or ethnic group, it could someone tall, someone short, someone skinny, someone fat.... some of all of the above. 

At a glance, from the outside looking in, it may appear like a complete breakdown of all restraint and selectivity and is a free for all..... but it's not. It's a pretty intricate dance. 

For the men, it's completely different. This is right out of the half of a page of my college Human Sexuality class textbook. Many men go into it thinking they are going to have a veritable buffet of women lined up for them,, but the harsh reality is it is almost purely lady's choice and if no lady chooses them, it ain't happening for them that night. 

And quite frankly, for a lot of men that do get a chance at bat, let's just say their "bat" fails them. That was also in my Human Sexuality textbook. Erectile issues are rampant in the lifestyle and kind of a dirty little secret. 

We need to separate the porn from the realities here. The realities are a lot more nuanced and nitty gritty. 

Most couples choose to play together where both people play or neither play and finding that 4-way click is often the most difficult part of swinging and in reality most couples probably go home without having sex with other people most of the time. At least until they find people that they all click with. 

I don't want to paint too dark of a picture as there is a lot of fun and excitement and pleasure to be had. But the lifestyle is made of living and breathing humans and humans are human and all the complexities and hang ups and insecurities and foibles of human nature come into play. 

That swingers are somehow sexual dynamos and have super human sexual prowess and able to take all comers (no pun) is perhaps the biggest myth of them all. They're just people.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I have never experienced emotion free sex,


Neither have I.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> On the flip side, having any emotions involved may even be a worse situation. I don't want to direct those kind emotional feeling at someone other than my wife. Quite honestly I'm afraid. What if I start falling for someone else? I am a biological machine and have all the weaknesses that come along with that. I've never tested myself in that way or on that level. What if had sex with another woman, even with the consent and in the presence of my wife, and my will power couldn't over come my biology and I make a strong emotional bond with her? Maybe this is an unfounded fear, but it is there and I would rather not temp fate putting my very happy marriage at risk for some physical gratification. Especially when my wife already provides ample physical gratification and intimacy.


I think this paragraphs does a very good job explaining my thinking of why we went about things the way we did. Where people run into problems is they deep down feel just like you but let the possibility of the fun and excitement take over and they plow forward (pun intended) against their inner voice. 

With more perspective we might be a little more open now than we had been in the past, as we now have a better understanding of ourselves and our limits.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I have never experienced emotion free sex, so the idea is completely foreign to me. It seems like it would be a high level form of masturbation with no emotion. I really don't want to be used as a dildo and I don't want my wife to be some guys Fleshlight masturbator. Something just seems so wrong about that.
> 
> On the flip side, having any emotions involved may even be a worse situation. I don't want to direct those kind emotional feeling at someone other than my wife. Quite honestly I'm afraid. What if I start falling for someone else? I am a biological machine and have all the weaknesses that come along with that. I've never tested myself in that way or on that level. What if had sex with another woman, even with the consent and in the presence of my wife, and my will power couldn't over come my biology and I make a strong emotional bond with her? Maybe this is an unfounded fear, but it is there and I would rather not temp fate putting my very happy marriage at risk for some physical gratification. Especially when my wife already provides ample physical gratification and intimacy.
> 
> ...


There is an easy solution to this - just simply don't go there. 

it is not for the vast majority. 

There are probably very few that can really embrace it and have it work well for them over a long term. 

Even though it worked well for us and a good time was had by all and no problems came of it, we still had a shelf life and reached our expiration date. Our experience is no where near unique. Countless couples dip their toes in a little bit and watch some girls rub their boobies on each other and then realise it's not really for them. Some get into it, do well with it for awhile and then move on. And there are a few that are lifers. I know a few of those but there aren't many. 

But no matter how you slice it, most people are not going to be into that and are not cut out for it.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> ...
> For a lot of women it was one of the first times in their lives that they had free choice to pick and choose based on their own personal attractions and desires. That could be with women, it could be someone of another race or ethnic group, it could someone tall, someone short, someone skinny, someone fat.... some of all of the above.
> ...


Women in the US have been free to choose sexual partners based on their desires for a long time. Couldn't a woman could go to a club or bar or whatever and generally have access to everything you listed? You are also saying in an indirect way that her husband isn't who she would have chosen had she the agency to find someone based on her own attractions and desires.



oldshirt said:


> ...
> For the men, it's completely different. This is right out of the half of a page of my college Human Sexuality class textbook. Many men go into it thinking they are going to have a veritable buffet of women lined up for them,, but the harsh reality is it is almost purely lady's choice and if no lady chooses them, it ain't happening for them that night.
> 
> Most guys go home without getting with another woman most nights.
> ...


I'm envisioning a room full of couples, all naked with a bunch of guys sitting on the side lines like at a middle school dance, lol.

Seriously though, this bit baffles me. If it is a party of swinging couples, how does the math work that there are guys that get none? You are telling me I could go to a swingers party with my wife and might get stuck watching her get banged while I sit on the side line holding my ****? That sure sounds like a lot of fun, lol.

In fact you are saying MOST guys go home without getting any MOST nights. WTH? Why would a man do that? If anything I thought the draw would be that you don't have to worry about striking out like when hitting night clubs and bars. Now you are telling me I could strike out at a party of swingers?

What happens in those cases? Does the wife give some sloppy seconds after the party to her man that couldn't hook up at a sex party? That sounds sounds like an insult joke, "you're man is so ugly he can't get laid at a sex party."



oldshirt said:


> ...
> And quite frankly, for a lot of men that do get a chance at bat, let's just say their "bat" fails them. That was also in my Human Sexuality textbook. Erectile issues are rampant in the lifestyle and kind of a dirty little secret.
> ...


Again, wow. This is sounding like sooo much fun. I will get to see my wife pounded by another man, I'll probably strike out and not find any interested women and if I do I'm highly likely to get limpdickitis. I'm may have to seriously consider this.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> There is an easy solution to this - just simply don't go there.


No argument there brother!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Women in the US have been free to choose sexual partners based on their desires for a long time. Couldn't a woman could go to a club or bar or whatever and generally have access to everything you listed? You are also saying in an indirect way that her husband isn't who she would have chosen had she the agency to find someone based on her own attractions and desires.


Technically yes to all of the above. 

But we need to keep a number of things in mind. 

One is just because someone 'can' do something, doesn't mean that that is always their chosen path. Yes a woman can walk into a single's club and basically have sex with whoever she taps out. But very few women actually do that. 

Let's also take into account time and generational trends. The first time I set foot in a swinger's club was circa 2005. 

The average age in those clubs was probably very late 30s - very early 60s. That cohort of married women at that time lived a very different life than young, single women today. 

Many married their high school sweet hearts because they were the nice, cute boy their parents approved of and thought he would be a suitable husband and provider. He may have even been the big high school jock at that time..... and we all know how a lot of those turned out. 

Most of the ones that didn't marry their high school sweet heart married their college sweet heart and we could probably make some of the same generalisations which may vary in accuracy to one degree or another. 

So we are talking largely about women that married in the late 70s through very early 90s. which was at a time when people were raising children at a much younger age and having more of them. 

In other words the majority of these women's sexual agency was spent with very few sexual partners and were getting married, having babies and raising families for much of their adult lives. 

Their mate selection was geared largely towards a good man, a good faithful husband and good provider and protector etc etc .......... and not necessarily the person or persons or the the situations that really turn them on or even perhaps more pertinently even some ancillary things that turn them on or even things they may not have even heard of that eventually will turn them on. 

much of their adult lives was geared toward establishing their primary relationship, getting a home and raising a family. 

OK now, it's 20 years later. Their home, family and relationship together is established, the kids are at least feeding and clothing and entertaining themselves if not even on their own. The career is in place, the marriage is intact and they have developed (hopefully) a good degree of communication and mutual respect and compassion. And the tubes are probably tied and/or at least have good reliable birth control. They have good health insurance so if a STI does occur it can be at least managed if not cured. 

And most importantly, now they are reasonably self-actualised adults that are no longer under their parent's control and care less and less each day what the neighbors think. 

And they realise that they are still sexual beings and still have some fantasies and yearnings and desires that may not always include just the two of them. Maybe they fantasize about 3somes or she fantasizes about touching another woman or seeing each other being sexual with someone else or running barefoot through moldy cheese who knows? 

But at a point in a middle aged adult, man or woman everyone asks themselves, "is this all there is?" 

Most will choose not to cross that line (many will cheat and do it on the down low, but that's a whole other topic) 

But some will discuss it and do some soul searching and have some very intimate and profound interpersonal discussions and choose to venture into that world together. 

And when a woman (at least of that era) gets into that world, she is embraced and celebrated and accepted and for many, it's the first time her sexuality has not been put in a jar and pidgeon holed by other people and she actually has some real agency in choosing her sexual scenarios and partners for herself. 

Now yes of course the husband does come into play in this and has some influence and veto power and what not but I think you can get my point. 

Up until time she has been told to reserve her sexuality for the man that will marry her and give her a home and father her children etc and she is shamed and shunned if she does not follow that paradigm. 

Now those shackles are lifted and her sexuality is embraced and appreciated and celebrated. She has men that were previously out of her league on the marriage market now showering her with attention and interest. She has women that she may have found beautiful and enticing before but homosexuality was of course a great taboo before. The thought of sex with multiple bodies in one bed was just........ well, unimaginable previously. 

But now all of that is a least a possibility. It's an open door that for 40 years prior was bolted shut and locked up tightly from both sides and sealed. 

Some may still choose to not go through that door. But that door is at least opened to them now with friendly, smiling people waving for them to come through.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

What you just described here can be summarized as swinging gives women an avenue to be sluts and be part of and accepted by a community of sluts. I know **** has a very negative connotation, but it is appropriate in this case. The definition of a **** is a woman who has many casual sexual partners. Is this really a positive thing?


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## thedude3535 (Nov 17, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Some people think if you put an upside down pineapple in your grocery cart or set one out on your doorstep that means you are a swinger and some people actually believe that is how swingers find each other.


The legend in my neck of the woods is a half-open garage door with the light on inside. No idea where that came from, but at least it has a little bit of logic to it, unlike the pineapple thing!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> In fact you are saying MOST guys go home without getting any MOST nights. WTH? Why would a man do that? If anything I thought the draw would be that you don't have to worry about striking out like when hitting night clubs and bars. Now you are telling me I could strike out at a party of swingers?
> 
> What happens in those cases? Does the wife give some sloppy seconds after the party to her man that couldn't hook up at a sex party? That sounds sounds like an insult joke, "you're man is so ugly he can't get laid at a sex party."
> 
> ...


So here is the rub. It's a whole different reality for men. 

Most men stuggle. Many outright fail. 

I can talk about this for days but I try to condense it down to few key ingredients. Women are embraced and celebrated in the lifestyle. Men are viewed with suspicion and caution. Everyone knows men are horny and wanting to score some tail. The question is whether they will play the game and play well with others. 

The vast majority of men are also not good looking and sexy. I do not mean that as any kind of put down and put myself in that catagory as well. Most middle aged, married men have been raised to be faithful husbands, fathers and providers. They were raised to go to work and bring home the bacon and raised to keep their ****s out of other women. 

They weren't raised to be pretty and they were raised to NOT flirt with and interact in a sexual manner with women and to not make women feel sexually uncomfortable....... especially women not their wives. 

Men go in there with visions of sugar plums dancing in their heads and when they get their, they are 40lbs overwieght, their hair is thinning and disheveled, their teeth have browned, if they have a manual job their hands are rough and stained and grunge under their nails. 

And they haven't approached and flirted with an unknown woman since their freshman frat party. 

So yes, in a way it does become the jr high sock hop where the jocks and the cheerleaders dance and the math and science nerds stand along the wall watching not having a clue what to do next. 

And where women are embraced and invited to join in the dance, the men are often left standing along the wall (figuratively speaking but it does happen literally as well) 

If a guy does not take initiative to learn to dance (figuratively speaking) he will be left along the wall. 

Guys simply have to learn to dance (figuratively, but literally helps a lot) and party and to flirt and banter and join into the fun and festivities. 

The catch is, a guy also has to mind his P's and Q's to the letter. A woman will get some grace if she pushes the envelope too much. A man will not. I have seen women get kicked out of clubs for bad behaviour. But a woman will get 1000 times wider birth than a man ever will. 

A woman that comes to the party without her husband will the the Belle of the Ball. A man without his wife won't be let in the door. 

If you're looking for equality and equal rights. The swing club ain't it. The double standard is well in place and rigorously enforced. 

So what's a guy to do? - You learn to play the game. It starts at the gym and at the man salon and a new wardrobe for the new bod. Then you learn to mingle and make pleasantries and get to know people on a personal level. You learn to read body language and subtle facial expressions and learn social and emotional inteligence. You learn to dance and party and flirt and banter and how to turn up he sexual tension without being creepy or over bearing. And you learn to seduce and do foreplay and keep your body healthy and functioning and keep a supply of viagra on you at all times that scoring is a possibility. 

Once you are suited up, on the field and actually playing the game, it does become more natural and instinctive. 

If a guy is already a playa' and a womanizer, it does come easier for them. But most of the men in the lifestyle were the science geeks and band nerds and not the jock or star quarterback. It's a learning curve. The ones that were able to do it and go the distance, had a lifetime of experiences in a relatively short period of time. 

But as I said above, it's not for the vast majority.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> What you just described here can be summarized as swinging gives women an avenue to be sluts and be part of and accepted by a community of sluts. I know *** has a very negative connotation, but it is appropriate in this case. The definition of a *** is a woman who has many casual sexual partners. Is this really a positive thing?


It is if you are the $lut.

And this is why it has historically been a pretty underground thing. Everyone is a $lut on the inside. It's all about image management to the outside world. 

But seriously, that's why privacy and discretion is such a big deal. It's people's reaction and judgement just like yours. 

People have lost their jobs. People have been disowned by their families. people have been kicked out their churches and civic organizations. All for doing a legal activity with consenting adults on their own personal time in the privacy of their own bedroom, because it is different than the accepted norm.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> It is if you are the $lut.
> 
> And this is why it has historically been a pretty underground thing. Everyone is a $lut on the inside. It's all about image management to the outside world.
> 
> ...


So instead of $lut, just call them a woman with many casual sexual partners. The name doesn't change anything, call it what you want. And no, not everyone is a **** on the inside. You might have fantasies about it to some degree, but if you don't have many casual sexual partners, you are not a ****. 

At the end of the day what you described is, swinging is a way for women to have many casual sexual partners and men to hope and pray they got the game needed to attract one of the woman with many casual sexual partners. Isn't that basically what you laid out here?

I still can't understand how this all plays out if, as you said, most men at a swingers party don't get a hookup. Are you really saying that it was a regular occurrence that a married couple shows up and the wife gets laid while the husband doesn't? I can't imagine how that car ride home conversation goes. 

How else am I supposed to judge this lifestyle? It just sounds like selective promiscuity. I don't think you should be persecuted for it at all, but it is what it is. Honestly, as you have tried to bring more clarity to how this lifestyle works the clearer it becomes that it is no more than a way to normalize promiscuity. I will say I will take promiscuity over infidelity. At least all parties are up front in what is going on.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I still can't understand how this all plays out if, as you said, most men at a swingers party don't get a hookup. Are you really saying that it was a regular occurrence that a married couple shows up and the wife gets laid while the husband doesn't? I can't imagine how that car ride home conversation goes.
> 
> How else am I supposed to judge this lifestyle? It just sounds like selective promiscuity. I don't think you should be persecuted for it at all, but it is what it is. Honestly, as you have tried to bring more clarity to how this lifestyle works the clearer it becomes that it is no more than a way to normalize promiscuity. I will say I will take promiscuity over infidelity. At least all parties are up front in what is going on.


Let me try to address a couple things here and see if it helps clarify or at least demystify a little bit. 

The starting block here is each couple decides what it means for them as a couple. It's THEIR sexual dynamics as a couple and they get to call their own shots. Many if not most married couples in the lifestyle chose to play together as a couple or not at all. 

Meaning if they were able to find someone to play with them together, they both went home empty handed so to speak. That was very common and almost all swingers will tell you that one of the most difficult things in the lifestyle is finding that 4-way click. 
So no, I would not say the norm was a bunch of the science nerds standing along the wall watch a couple jocks get down with their wives. 


"Can" that happen if people do not adopt an all-or-none rule and stick to it? Yes it can. But most people have a play together type arrangment and most people are very respectful of that. And as @happyhusband0005 mentioned in another post, people that push or try to violate that boundary can quickly find themselves on the outside. 

How it often manifests in real life, is a couple goes home from the party not playing a lot until the guy learns to clean himself up and get in the game. It's a learning curve. That may sound like a bad or daunting thing. but with the right attitude it is actually a fun and sexy process. Very few realistic couple actually show up to their first occasion ready, willing and able to just dive in head first but it does happen. Its very common if not not the norm to just slowly start dipping your toes into the shallow end (remind me to tell you a funny story about our very first trip to club and I actually touched another woman's ankle LOL) 

Now in terms of promiscuity, that depends on how you want to define promiscuity and again, how you as a couple want to define your goals and boundaries. 

If you are going to define promiscuity and $luts etc as more that one sexual partner, well then yes, you are going to be a promiscuous $lut in your eyes. 

But like I said, you define your own objectives and parameters. What is your actual goal here? Are you wanting to screw as many people as you possibly can in one night???

Are you wanting to find one special couple that you click with well and then have an ongoing, dare I say it.... "exclusive" relationship with that one couple? 

Each couple defines their own parameters and objectives and we have encountered quite a number of couples that come right out and say they want to find one couple and be exclusive. It is a thing. 

Some couples want to screw everyone they can. Some want to be exclusive with one other couple. Some want to be exclusive with one other woman or one other man.. and there's someone out there looking for everything in between. 

You define your own goals and conditions and then it's on you to try to fill that bill. No one tells you what you have to do other than to be respectful of other people's journey and boundaries.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> At the end of the day what you described is, swinging is a way for women to have many casual sexual partners and men to hope and pray they got the game needed to attract one of the woman with many casual sexual partners. Isn't that basically what you laid out here?
> .


I want to reiterate something here because I think your picking out certain things so you can poke holes in it. 

You and your partner are each consenting adults with free agency. You as a couple get to determine your own goals, rules, boundaries, deal breakers and each have full veto power. (or at least you should) 

If someone doesn't want to do something or doesn't want something to happen - then don't. 

If you only want to play together as a couple where both play or none do, then stipulate that. 

If no one is wanting to do that, then you smile graciously, bid them a good night and be on your way. simple as that. 

Now if you have stipulated that, and people ask you to sit in the corner so they can play with your partner, those people are A-holes and you shouldn't be associating with them. 

But a bigger issue is if your wife tells you to ****** off, she wants to have fun with her newfound friends and wants you out of the way....... then you have bigger problems and the biggest A-hole is your wife. And you've just got some serious marital problems on your hands. 

There are a few things that are just ironclad necessities here. You have to have good communication with very clear and explicit goals and objectives as well as boundaries and parameters and deal breakers. Each party has to have full, unquestionable and uncompromisable veto power. And each individual has to have the giblets to stand up for her/himself and enforce those boundaries. 

And if you can't or won't do that, the stay home and don't even think about it.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I want to reiterate something here because I think your picking out certain things so you can poke holes in it.
> 
> You and your partner are each consenting adults with free agency. You as a couple get to determine your own goals, rules, boundaries, deal breakers and each have full veto power. (or at least you should)
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to poke holes, I'm just trying to boil down what you are saying. You've gotten more nuanced here, so I understand that it isn't simply a way for women to have many casual sexual partners while their husband is left out in the cold. Previously you mentioned none of what you stated here. This is what you wrote...



oldshirt said:


> For the men, it's completely different. This is right out of the half of a page of my college Human Sexuality class textbook. Many men go into it thinking they are going to have a veritable buffet of women lined up for them,, but the harsh reality is it is almost purely lady's choice and if no lady chooses them, it ain't happening for them that night.
> 
> Most guys go home without getting with another woman most nights.


You never mentioned that if the man doesn't get to play that usually the woman doesn't either. Now the math works out!


Promiscuous isn't more than one sexual partner. It is having many transient sexual relationships. I know this lifestyle comes in all kinds of flavors, but most of those here in the lifestyle have given descriptions that lead me to believe you all have met the definition of promiscuous. You've had many sexual partners that were one offs or just a couple encounters. Why don't you embrace it for what it is? You can still keep it a secret if you like, but it seems like internally you want to define it as something other than what it really is. Why is that?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I'm not trying to poke holes, I'm just trying to boil down what you are saying. You've gotten more nuanced here, so I understand that it isn't simply a way for women to have many casual sexual partners while their husband is left out in the cold. Previously you mentioned none of what you stated here. This is what you wrote...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Understand I can't condense down 10 years of experience into just a couple neat tidy sentences. 

if you want to call it promiscuous call it promiscuous I don't care. You're the one trying to define and label it, not me. I am just saying what I have observed and experienced people doing. I'm not trying to label it one way or another. 

You're asking about swinging here so yeah it is going to involve more than marital monogamy. If you are afraid of labeling yourself promiscuous, then don't swing.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Women in the US have been free to choose sexual partners based on their desires for a long time. Couldn't a woman could go to a club or bar or whatever and generally have access to everything you listed? You are also saying in an indirect way that her husband isn't who she would have chosen had she the agency to find someone based on her own attractions and desires.
> 
> 
> I'm envisioning a room full of couples, all naked with a bunch of guys sitting on the side lines like at a middle school dance, lol.
> ...


Yep. So....... yeah. 

The post you are quoting here BigDaddy is when I threw in the towel. 

What in the actual F. 

Let's just say hypothetically I would even humor listening to swinger couples tell me the joys of swinging, the first big nope is that my wife is going to get railroaded on a nightly basis while I watch? What? Sounds like getting a divorce first, then being single and attracting in women with my decent looks, stability and nice salary would get me FAR more women to sleep with than being a swinger. If I threw morality to the side, I know a man my age that cleans up well, is intelligent and does well for himself can get women fairly easily. Why in the hell would I want to go to a non-guaranteed sex party where my wife would be getting guaranteed sex? Why wouldn't I just not share my wife and enjoy sex with my wife instead? Again, I'm not saying j would do either of these things (divorce and live the single life or swing) but damn, the single life would produce more sex and save me from the agonizing mental grief. 


But what really just shut me off was old shirts description of cuckolding. Absolutely shocking. Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware of women growing up feeling like they are "dirty" or it is wrong to enjoy sex. I know this well. My wife went through some of this and we had to work through it. Society really has taken a toll on some women and it sucks. My heart goes out to them. The problem here that I see is that some people are not working with their wives. Instead, they are bringing them to other men?! What? So in order for a woman to fully live out her fantasies and be truly sexually satisfied, she needs to swing so that other men can have their way with her? I was speechless the first time I read that. Wow. So basically, those "men" (and it feels weird to call those people men) join swinger clubs to get cuckolded. I'm going to assume they have absolutely no self respect. 

The whole point of getting married for me was because my wife didn't need anyone else! I am more than capable of fulfilling her sexual desires and fantasies. She is certainly capable of fulfilling mine! If my wife for any reason came to me and said that she needs to live out all of her sexual desires and fantasies and that swinging will do that for her..... well, I would be crushed, but then I'd simply point to the front door. She's more than free to make her own choices as I would never stop her in any way, just no longer as my wife. I'd be able to play that game as well, just as a single man.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

Hmph, the only bit with which I can relate is "...they were raised to NOT flirt with and interact in a sexual manner with women and to not make women feel sexually uncomfortable..." This was / is certainly my outlook. And my practice. In addition I was / am shy and never learned to flirt or socialize sexually or feel comfortable trying.

However, my experience does not support your comments about the partners women experience and choose. I have NEVER initiated, but have been hit on, received very physical flirting, been cornered by women, most of whom just wanted casual sex. They obviously got more than what the family approved of. If a shy retiring man like me experiences this, I would guess that women are not missing out.

On the other hand, Julie has been more outgoing and has had experiences of her choice. She made her final choice 44 years ago.Neither of us has a need or interest to go beyond our marriage. In fact, I tell Julie she is my safe harbor from dealing with other women as I found that casual sex with women was not fulfilling and was glad to be "off market".


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

I may have missed it, but if most of the men are not getting any at these parties, who's ****ing all the wives? 
Never had any interest in this lifestyle, and even less now that it seems when you opt in, you are likely signing up to be a ****. 
My pineapple will remain upright.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

manwithnoname said:


> I may have missed it, but if most of the men are not getting any at these parties, who's ****ing all the wives?
> Never had any interest in this lifestyle, and even less now that it seems when you opt in, you are likely signing up to be a ****.
> My pineapple will remain upright.


Not one thing is this whole thread has made it sound in anyway positive or in the tiniest bit appealing. On the contrary.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> It is if you are the $lut.
> 
> And this is why it has historically been a pretty underground thing. Everyone is a $lut on the inside. It's all about image management to the outside world.
> 
> ...


How are you in anyway surprised when people are asked to leave their churches when they are committing adultery? When they are going against all that Christians are taught about marriage? 
I mean for Jews before Christ, adultery was punishable by death. That's how serious it is to God, yet people who do this sit in church year after year pretending they are living in faithful monogamous marriages.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> Even though it worked well for us and a good time was had by all and no problems came of it, we still had a shelf life and reached our expiration date. Our experience is no where near unique.


Please address the 'shelf life'. What causes people to give up the lifestyle?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> How are you in anyway surprised when people are asked to leave their churches when they are committing adultery? When they are going against all that Christians are taught about marriage?
> I mean for Jews before Christ, adultery was punishable by death. That's how serious it is to God, yet people who do this sit in church year after year pretending they are living in faithful monogamous marriages.


With all respect, this judgement attitude that actually appears to support not letting any sinners into church, is extraordinarily harmful and judgemental. This is what drives some away, and offers no encouragement to learn more about Christ.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

manwithnoname said:


> I may have missed it, but if most of the men are not getting any at these parties, who's ****ing all the wives?
> Never had any interest in this lifestyle, and even less now that it seems when you opt in, you are likely signing up to be a ****.
> My pineapple will remain upright.


The type of guy that would score heavily in this situation is exactly the type of guy that wouldn’t be interested.
He doesn’t want or need anyone else’s leftovers.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> The type of guy that would score heavily in this situation is exactly the type of guy that wouldn’t be interested.
> He doesn’t want or need anyone else’s leftovers.


Yeah. I was kind of leaving this be but it's cool if people want to ask and are curious.

A lot of the reasons that oldshirt, if I remember correctly, gave for why people do this were things that I already experienced as a single man in the wild, without sharing of course.

I've always had a strong aversion to touching another man's woman. To me, it feels like being a second hand homosexual and I've always thought the term "leftovers" was applicable.

It would be like eating another man's steak that he had already started on while getting his saliva all over it, only worse in the case of having sex with his woman.

The psychology is interesting because I don't feel that way about a woman's past as long as it is in her past and she is committed to me.

I guess a better food analogy would be having a romantic dinner with another man as we both fed each other bites of steak we had already chewed on for a while.

I know swingers have a different psychology but that's mine.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Yeah. I was kind of leaving this be but it's cool if people want to ask and are curious.
> 
> A lot of the reasons that oldshirt, if I remember correctly, gave for why people do this were things that I already experienced as a single man in the wild, without sharing of course.
> 
> ...


Conan, if I wasn’t grossed out about the lifestyle before, I am now after your explanation. 😂


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> With all respect, this judgement attitude that actually appears to support not letting any sinners into church, is extraordinarily harmful and judgemental. This is what drives some away, and offers no encouragement to learn more about Christ.


Its not about not letting sinners into Church. Its about regular church goers who know better. People who know full well what God says about marriage but who carry on disobeying Him.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Yeah. I was kind of leaving this be but it's cool if people want to ask and are curious.
> 
> A lot of the reasons that oldshirt, if I remember correctly, gave for why people do this were things that I already experienced as a single man in the wild, without sharing of course.
> 
> ...


Yes I see your point. 
Another reason why I would hate that whole swinger's scene is because I am not in the least sexually/emotionally/physically attracted to a man who sees faithfulness as optional or treats sex so casually. 
That alone would turn me off.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

i am kind of surprised nobody has brought up the big elephant in the corner of the room.
lets say two consenting adults decide to go to a swinging party....how do you NOT catch an STD?

Sexually Transmitted Diseases are relatively common nowadays. If wife is going down on some guy, or getting banged by two strangers, or the guy is doing cunnilingus or boffing some hot babe there....you have two chances (both of you) or catching something, and then bringing it home!

Does everyone at these parties have STI tests just before the party happens?
Why is this worth the risk?

it seems, purely from a statistics point of view, it would be a lot safer to just find one other couple to swap spouses with from time to time....


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Talker67 said:


> i am kind of surprised nobody has brought up the big elephant in the corner of the room.
> lets say two consenting adults decide to go to a swinging party....how do you NOT catch an STD?
> 
> Sexually Transmitted Diseases are relatively common nowadays. If wife is going down on some guy, or getting banged by two strangers, or the guy is doing cunnilingus or boffing some hot babe there....you have two chances (both of you) or catching something!
> ...


Simple math indicates at least an increased risk of disease transmission, contraction and impregnation by the wrong man.

Cautious swingers, the only successful ones, do reduce the risk but it will always be significantly higher than within a monogamous relationship with no infidelity. Monogamy with no infidelity has zero risk for paternity roulette and sexual diseases.

One thing I picked up on though, is that you might be thinking about more of an orgy setting which the posters in the lifestyle say are rare and many probably don't participate that way.

Think more along the lines of being friends with another couple long enough to trust them and that's probably a little closer to reality.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Its not about not letting sinners into Church. Its about regular church goers who know better. People who know full well what God says about marriage but who carry on disobeying Him.


That's my point. There's not one, that walk through the door that are perfect and without sin.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> i am kind of surprised nobody has brought up the big elephant in the corner of the room.
> lets say two consenting adults decide to go to a swinging party....how do you NOT catch an STD?
> 
> Sexually Transmitted Diseases are relatively common nowadays. If wife is going down on some guy, or getting banged by two strangers, or the guy is doing cunnilingus or boffing some hot babe there....you have two chances (both of you) or catching something, and then bringing it home!
> ...


So, the first time this popped into my mind was when the woman who showed up without her husband was considered "the belle of the ball". That is not what would go through my mind at all. First thing I thought of was, "I think the STD just walked in.".


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> So, the first time this popped into my mind was when the woman who showed up without her husband was considered "the belle of the ball". That is not what would go through my mind at all. First thing I thought of was, "I think the STD just walked in.".


Less “Belle of the ball” and more like “The door handle” as in everyone gets a turn as long as you don’t mind sloppy seconds.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Andy1001 said:


> Less “Belle of the ball” and more like “The door handle” as in everyone gets a turn as long as you don’t mind sloppy seconds.


Seriously. No doubt.

if I were into swinging and saw a woman show up alone, I would think she is either married to the weakest man alive or her husband doesn’t know where she is. Again, I would assume there would be a rule where if that happened, her husband would be called immediately to confirm he does in fact know where she is.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Understand I can't condense down 10 years of experience into just a couple neat tidy sentences.
> 
> if you want to call it promiscuous call it promiscuous I don't care. You're the one trying to define and label it, not me. I am just saying what I have observed and experienced people doing. I'm not trying to label it one way or another.
> 
> You're asking about swinging here so yeah it is going to involve more than marital monogamy. If you are afraid of labeling yourself promiscuous, then don't swing.


I know it is very complex and difficult to comprehensively put into words. I don't have the experience you have, so I can only really go by your words. I thank you for making an effort here. I tried to summarize pros and cons to help me understand and quantify. These are all your words:

Pros

I could be me and my wife could be herself and we could talk with people on a very personal and even affectionate and sexual level and not get my face slapped or sent to HR for sensitivity training.
It was an environment where we could be fully human without shame or judgement or disparagement for being sexual beings.
I wanted to be able to tell a lady that I thought she was beautiful and sexy and that I'd love to touch her and kiss her and such. A few took me up on that offer. Many did not. But ALL were gracious and flattered and appreciated the compliment and the spirit for which it was intended and noone ever got upset or angry with me.
there is a lot of fun and excitement and pleasure to be had.
*paraphrasing multiple posts here - women are free from societal pressures around sex
Cons

Most guys go home without getting with another woman most nights.
Erectile issues are rampant in the lifestyle and kind of a dirty little secret.
the first time that they have had actual free choice in having sexual activities with someone they truly desire and are attracted to sexually...YES, that does pose risk for the husbands.
In many ways it is truly like dating all over again.
Yes it is harder and more complex and more moving parts. There is more risk.
Some people would refer to play partners as sexual adjuncts like a dildo or vibrator or massage oil etc. I personally think that's a little harsh, but the general analogy isn't really so far off.
And where women are embraced and invited to join in the dance, the men are often left standing along the wall 
Given the fact that ALL of those Pros can be had between just the husband and wife, why put up with all the cons?

The common theme of all your posts is that this lifestyle is all about the women. I know you don't like the word, but what you described is it allows the women to set their inner sluts free. No more inhibition as dictated by society. I'm all about freedom and personal autonomy. The problem I have is all this seems to come at the expense of the husband. 

You have said that many of these women are with their husband because they are someone they should be with, not want to, or desire to be with. It is great they want to see their wives happy, but aren't they at the same time admitting that they are not able to fulfill all of their wives' needs? They are on some level admitting they are not what their wife truly desires. That makes me sad that these guys feel they aren't enough to satisfy their wives so they think they need to bring other people into the mix. That mentality seems like playing with fire. I could smoke some crack one time and love the high, have a great time and move along. Or, like many I try it and from the first hit I'm hooked. 

Hopefully you will entertain a few questions.

Any idea how often trying to get into this lifestyle has ended a marriage?

Why do you feel you need to have these personal and sexual conversations and freedom with more people than just your wife?

Why aren't you able, or think you aren't able, to satisfy your wife sexual without the assistance of other people?

Why did you and your wife give it up? You mentioned "shelf life"?

How do kids factor into this? Surely they must be part of the risk assessment.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I know it is very complex and difficult to comprehensively put into words. I don't have the experience you have, so I can only really go by your words. I thank you for making an effort here. I tried to summarize pros and cons to help me understand and quantify. These are all your words:
> 
> Pros
> 
> ...


Yep. All the explanations of the lifestyle I see here so far is truly at the husbands expense. Your list of pros didn’t seem like a true list of pros (even though you were just listing what others considered as a pro). Looked like a list of sorta maybe kinda pros and a large list of debilitating cons.

I totally get this lifestyle can suck in men because they think they’ll get to live a bachelor lifestyle. Why not skip the party and go live the bachelor lifestyle? It sounds like the lifestyle would destroy more marriages instead of enhancing them. If you have to make so many rules to the point where it stifles the wife, that is going to cause some serious resentment and destroy the marriage anyway. That is why I assumed That all the couples Would get together ahead of time before the party so that matchups could be made. I thought everyone walked into the party already knowing who they were getting that night.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Yep. So....... yeah.
> 
> The post you are quoting here BigDaddy is when I threw in the towel.
> 
> ...


If that is what you've come away with then I need to go back to grade school writing class again because that is not what I said at all. 

Let's go back to square one here and start over. This is something that couple do together as part of their own marital dynamics. They decide as a couple what they do and do not want to do. If they decide they only want to play together, then they only play together (assuming they follow their own rules, but that another topic) 

I have never once said or even implied this was some kind of forced cuckolding. Yes, women are going to have more opportunities, but that is true whether in the swinging community or not. But just because they have the opportunity, does not mean that they choose to do so. But I never once said that guys bring their wives so other men can have sex with them while they watch (unless that is what they are into and have agreed to)

Most couples choose to play together and if they don't find a 4-way click with someone else, they choose to not play at all that particular night. 

I can't say it any more clear than that. 

In fact I specifically have a specific post where I state that IMHO the Hot Wife/Cuckold scenario is the most risky of nonmonogamous practices in causing loss of attraction for spouse and falling for someone else. I can't prove that statistically, but that is my personal opinion. 

So I have never said what you are stating above. That is what Big Daddy was saying. Not me. 

Now in terms of single/divorced guy being able to score with more chicks - well yeah duh. A single guy can do whatever he wants. A single guy can hit the bars 24/7 or live his life on Tinder all he wants and he doesn't need a partner's buy-in and doesn't have other husbandly and fatherly duties to do so yes he could be out hustling every day. 

Swinging is something couples do together as a couple. It's like doubles tennis. It's teamwork for a team sport. 

As such it is more work and more complex but the value comes from working and succeeding as a team.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

manwithnoname said:


> I may have missed it, but if most of the men are not getting any at these parties, who's ****ing all the wives?
> Never had any interest in this lifestyle, and even less now that it seems when you opt in, you are likely signing up to be a ****.
> My pineapple will remain upright.


Most couples are in it to play together where either both of them play together or neither of them do. (for some it's ok if only one does, but for most they want to play together) 

So if a couple does not find someone else where they all click, they both do not play that night.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Yep. All the explanations of the lifestyle I see here so far is truly at the husbands expense. Your list of pros didn’t seem like a true list of pros (even though you were just listing what others considered as a pro). Looked like a list of sorta maybe kinda pros and a large list of debilitating cons.
> 
> I totally get this lifestyle can suck in men because they think they’ll get to live a bachelor lifestyle. Why not skip the party and go live the bachelor lifestyle? It sounds like the lifestyle would destroy more marriages instead of enhancing them. If you have to make so many rules to the point where it stifles the wife, that is going to cause some serious resentment and destroy the marriage anyway. That is why I assumed That all the couples Would get together ahead of time before the party so that matchups could be made. I thought everyone walked into the party already knowing who they were getting that night.


In 2008, CBS had a summer series called Swingtown set in Chicago during the 1970s. In one scene, the swingers were at an outdoor shindig and everyone's keys were put in a basket. At some point, a participant could pick up an unknown set of keys and whoever they belonged to were the lucky (or, unlucky) bonee that evening. Talk about yuck factor.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> If that is what you've come away with then I need to go back to grade school writing class again because that is not what I said at all.
> 
> Let's go back to square one here and start over. This is something that couple do together as part of their own marital dynamics. They decide as a couple what they do and do not want to do. If they decide they only want to play together, then they only play together (assuming they follow their own rules, but that another topic)
> 
> ...


I saw later that you cleared up the confusion. I was writing my post at the same time you were earlier.

I'm just too lazy now to go back and edit. I concede that I misunderstood your first post (other than the whole cuckold thing. That's still.... Man, I don't know.).


But a lot of your posts oldshirt are like that. You say one thing then modify your statement later. I can't get a read on what you truly believe or what point you are trying to get across. The post that BigDaddyNY originally quoted? You were definitely talking about men bringing their wives to get railroaded while they sit on the sidelines. I don't know how you could read that post and not get that impression. Especially when you said that swinging was how a woman could fully experience her sexual desires. WTF? What man is going to get married to a woman like that? Why would I pour all of my effort and resources into a woman only for her to be hiding all the "good stuff" from me that she wants to give to some other man or men? LoL. How could I possibly respect myself after that? I have decent looks. I'm in good shape. I make pretty damn good money. I'm a good father. I'm larger than the vast majority of the male population and could easily protect a woman from others. If the woman that I chose to be my wife (and she chose me) can't give me her all, then I'll go back to what I previously said. The front door is that way.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Yep. All the explanations of the lifestyle I see here so far is truly at the husbands expense. Your list of pros didn’t seem like a true list of pros (even though you were just listing what others considered as a pro). Looked like a list of sorta maybe kinda pros and a large list of debilitating cons.
> 
> I totally get this lifestyle can suck in men because they think they’ll get to live a bachelor lifestyle. Why not skip the party and go live the bachelor lifestyle? It sounds like the lifestyle would destroy more marriages instead of enhancing them. If you have to make so many rules to the point where it stifles the wife, that is going to cause some serious resentment and destroy the marriage anyway. That is why I assumed That all the couples Would get together ahead of time before the party so that matchups could be made. I thought everyone walked into the party already knowing who they were getting that night.


I agree with the comment on the pros. I could easily turn them around in my mind, but I was genuinely trying to find the positives. Even if I don't consider them to be clear pros, I can complete understand why someone would call them pros.

All the rules is kind of ironic. On one hand swinging is said here that it removes all of the societal pressures around sex for the woman only to be given a whole bunch of new rules that must be followed. Seems a little contradictory, other than she has an opportunity to discuss and agree or disagree with the rules.

I think what you are describing at the end of your post would be wife swapping, not a swinger party.

I will also say that the situation @happyhusband0005 describes certainly sounds more appealing, or at least not as much at the cost of the husband. That situation seems like all upside for the man if he and his wife have no concern about monogamy. He will at least be with his wife in every threesome, but also has a second woman. It isn't for me, but that sounds a lot more palatable than a swinger party as described here.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Talker67 said:


> i am kind of surprised nobody has brought up the big elephant in the corner of the room.
> lets say two consenting adults decide to go to a swinging party....how do you NOT catch an STD?
> 
> Sexually Transmitted Diseases are relatively common nowadays. If wife is going down on some guy, or getting banged by two strangers, or the guy is doing cunnilingus or boffing some hot babe there....you have two chances (both of you) or catching something, and then bringing it home!
> ...


Safe sex practices and being tested are pretty standard protocols. You're not likely to stay on the invite list if you are found to be spreading STDs. Most activity in the community does not take place at these parties at least for us. In 5 years we only went to a handful.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> That's my point. There's not one, that walk through the door that are perfect and without sin.


So that means we just carry on living a lifestyle that God says is wrong for years while sitting in church? Completely disregarding His teaching?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> In 2008, CBS had a summer series called Swingtown set in Chicago during the 1970s. In one scene, the swingers were at an outdoor shindig and everyone's keys were put in a basket. At some point, a participant could pick up an unknown set of keys and whoever they belonged to were the lucky (or, unlucky) bonee that evening. Talk about yuck factor.


I suppose if you didn’t like the look of your “prize” you could just steal their car instead. 😁[/QUOTE]


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I know it is very complex and difficult to comprehensively put into words. I don't have the experience you have, so I can only really go by your words. I thank you for making an effort here. I tried to summarize pros and cons to help me understand and quantify. These are all your words:
> 
> Pros
> 
> ...


BigDaddy, you bring up a good point on the whole "choice" thing for women. I'm 42 years old. I have never seen a situation where a woman didn't get to choose her husband (in the United States). Why would a woman feel forced to marry a man she knows that she is not sexually compatible with? I get it that we can talk about old times all we want. That isn't how it happens today and hasn't happened in my lifetime (in the western world as far as I know. Maybe I'm wrong). 

Secondly, I think your question on how many marriages are destroyed hasn't been addressed yet. I would be curious to see the statistics on how many lives just get gutted after something like this. I'm not going to say that people can't handle this. Of course they can. I'm sure there are many swinging couples that truly find enjoyment and have fulfilling lives, but I venture that more people get destroyed instead. Now that we have the clarity that people come into this as a couple and that most couples make the rule that either both get some or none...... how long does it happen that way? Meaning, lets say 7 parties in a row the guy strikes out even though his wife could have had 5 guys each of those nights? She is going to resent his ass soooooo bad. Marriage destroyed. 

I saw the 15 million number used as the number of people involved in swinging and that was the reason given for why some of my neighbors are swingers. Is that 15 million people only counting the couples that truly enjoy swinging, or does that also include all the people in destroyed marriages? Reason I ask is because I wouldn't consider the destroyed marriage people swingers.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> So that means we just carry on living a lifestyle that God says is wrong for years while sitting in church? Completely disregarding His teaching?


I apologize for this mini t/j

Diana, I see what point you are trying to make. I honestly do. I certainly don't fault you for it. 

Its also the reason why I stopped going to church a long time ago. You could choose any sin you want. Doesn't matter. I'm gonna go with the tried and true "treat others the way you want to be treated". When I would go to church and see awful, despicable people that I know treated others like garbage, I couldn't take it anymore. Didn't matter what sin they were guilty of. I never saw these people at least attempt to become better people and stop their horrible behavior.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> Please address the 'shelf life'. What causes people to give up the lifestyle?


Seasons change. Very few things truly last forever. 

There probably are as many reasons as there are people and each are unique onto them. 

For us personally it was age, menopause, loss of libido, a sense of been there/done that and time to do other things. 

It's a lot of work and I imagine for some the juice isn't worth the squeeze. It may not have lived up to their porn fantasies. 

I know some people that found a special couple or two and they basically are now just close friends with that couple and they hang out together whether they have sex or not and no longer attend any lifestyle events or on any of the lifestyle websites. 

Some couples crash and burn. Some couples saw it as a means of trying to "fix" their marital woes and ended up blowing everything up in spectacular fashion. 

I do know a couple where the wife of one couple and the husband of another fell for each other and left their respective spouses. 

Some thought it was just going to be a smorgasbord of easy sex and found that it wasn't. 

For some it was a bucket list item that got checked off to their satisfaction and move on to other things. 

Some may have seen it negatively impacting their relationship and got out. 

Some may not have found people that they both click with and decided it just wasn't for them. 

And probably 1000 other reasons.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> I suppose if you didn’t like the look of your “prize” you could just steal their car instead. 😁


[/QUOTE]


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Talker67 said:


> i am kind of surprised nobody has brought up the big elephant in the corner of the room.
> lets say two consenting adults decide to go to a swinging party....how do you NOT catch an STD?
> 
> Sexually Transmitted Diseases are relatively common nowadays. If wife is going down on some guy, or getting banged by two strangers, or the guy is doing cunnilingus or boffing some hot babe there....you have two chances (both of you) or catching something, and then bringing it home!
> ...


Any time you have sex, STDs are going to be a risk. 

The more people you have sex with, the greater your chances of exposure. 

If you want to live a life 100% guaranteed of never having an STD, be celibate.

Other wise practice safer sex practices to reduce your chances of exposure. 

We always had a 100% No Glove/No Love policy that we strictly enforced. 

There were a number of couples that were what are called Soft Swingers which only have actual PIV with their own partner and did not have PIV with other people. 

Some couples require proof of testing before having sex with someone else. 

None of these things are going to be 100% guaranteed, but they can reduce the chances. There's always going to be a level of risk.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Blondilocks said:


> In 2008, CBS had a summer series called Swingtown set in Chicago during the 1970s. In one scene, the swingers were at an outdoor shindig and everyone's keys were put in a basket. At some point, a participant could pick up an unknown set of keys and whoever they belonged to were the lucky (or, unlucky) bonee that evening. Talk about yuck factor.


I recall the TV series. Key party! Could be fun.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Hopefully you will entertain a few questions.
> 
> Any idea how often trying to get into this lifestyle has ended a marriage?
> 
> ...


I'll answer some of these I have a feeling @oldshirt will have different answers than me.

#1. It happens, for sure. This is not for the vast majority of people. The hope is people go into it very slowly and seek out advice from more experienced people. A lot of experienced people will be able to spend and hour or two talking with a new couple and tell them a whole list of things they need to think hard about and discuss before going any further. Sometimes the new couple will be told it doesn't sound like this is for you. How often it happens? Probably too much. 

#2. It's fun and exciting to have these conversations with other people. You learn a lot and get different perspectives. 
#3 This would be a red flag the way you pose it. I don't think I ever met a couple who would say they fit your description. For us it the interest was born out of my wife accepting her bisexuality, I can't really help in that department on my own, I lack the proper equipment. But generally most people I met had pretty hot sex lives on their own. If you get into this because you can't satisfy your wife you're going to have problems, unless you're into cuckolding. I never met an actual cuckold couple in the wild, hotwife couples yes, but thats a different thing with different motivations. 

#4 It can be a lot of work. Finding people to engage with that you both are comfortable with can be very tricky. For my wife and I finding single bisexual women was very very tricky. We could meet with a different couple every week but finding a single women who we are interested in would take months. Also for us it was a practical decision. During our time in the game, we had a full time nanny who was very flexible and could do an over night or weekend on short notice. When our kids got older and we really didn't need a nanny because both the kids were in school most of the day she left to get back to taking care of babies. So it just made things even more complicated. Our kids are getting closer to an age now where we might soon feel comfortable leaving them home alone for a night, once we get there perhaps will will jump back in. 

As far as your pros and cons, I think people are focusing too much on what happens at parties, These parties are really more social things than sex things in my experience. Similar to clubs yes people have sex at swingers clubs but most people go for the sexually charged atmosphere and to meet people, it is probably more common for people to go assuming no sex will happen. This is not like porn with everyone attending to bang like bunnies. A lot of times these parties have the same group of people at every event with the occasional new couple thrown in. So a lot of times the people who end up playing came to the party already planning to play with specific people. The parties are a good place to meet a bunch of people in the community and it often occurs that people meet at a party and set up a time to get together in a small group for playtime.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> I recall the TV series. Key party! Could be fun.


Critical word in your post is "Could". 😂


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I'll answer some of these I have a feeling @oldshirt will have different answers than me.
> 
> #1. It happens, for sure. This is not for the vast majority of people. The hope is people go into it very slowly and seek out advice from more experienced people. A lot of experienced people will be able to spend and hour or two talking with a new couple and tell them a whole list of things they need to think hard about and discuss before going any further. Sometimes the new couple will be told it doesn't sound like this is for you. How often it happens? Probably too much.
> 
> ...


HappyHusband - if there was a situation where I could ever see a wall getting torn down in my mind, it would be your situation. I think the vast majority of the male population cannot handle another man being with their wife/gf. A bisexual wife? I think there is a significant portion of the male population where that is more palatable.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

> People in the lifestyle are a tiny group. In the US alone the estimates are around 12-15 million people. You know some even if you're in small town USA.


So about 4 percent of the population.



> A lot of women of my generation and prior married men that were the "Nice Guys" and who their families approved of because they would be good providers and fathers... In the lifestyle it is the women who pick and choose who they hook up with. It's basically a big Sadie Hawkins dance. *YES, that does pose risk for the husbands.*





> in my experience women generally run the show.


Men, pay attention.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Pros
> 
> I could be me and my wife could be herself and we could talk with people on a very personal and even affectionate and sexual level and not get my face slapped or sent to HR for sensitivity training.
> It was an environment where we could be fully human without shame or judgement or disparagement for being sexual beings.
> ...


You've left out a couple important pros - You can have a lot of fun and you can have a lot of sex!!

It's like everything else in life, its what you make it. If you're a glass half empty kind of person and you don't like other people - yeah, you're going to hate it. 

I'll use the dating as a example; you listed it as a con. For many people that is a major pro. In swinging it can be like dating again but it's dating as a couple. Like doubles tennis. If you don't like to date, and don't like to get out and meet people and do things with them and get to know them etc etc yeah, you're not going like it. 

But for a lot of people, they're in their 40s, they spent their 20s dating and ultimately marrying their spouse and making a home and raising a family etc and now they want to get out and meet people and do things again and have some sexy fun again. 

For people like me it was being alive and a vital human being again. 

It sounds like for you it would be a nightmare. 

Different people are different. For me being stuck at home cleaning up puke and changing diapers and working day and night to keep everyone housed and fed was the nightmare. Getting out and having some fun again is what kept me alive. 

For others, being at a dance party is the nightmare.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> BigDaddy, you bring up a good point on the whole "choice" thing for women. I'm 42 years old. I have never seen a situation where a woman didn't get to choose her husband (in the United States). Why would a woman feel forced to marry a man she knows that she is not sexually compatible with? I get it that we can talk about old times all we want. That isn't how it happens today and hasn't happened in my lifetime (in the western world as far as I know. Maybe I'm wrong).
> 
> Secondly, I think your question on how many marriages are destroyed hasn't been addressed yet. I would be curious to see the statistics on how many lives just get gutted after something like this. I'm not going to say that people can't handle this. Of course they can. I'm sure there are many swinging couples that truly find enjoyment and have fulfilling lives, but I venture that more people get destroyed instead. Now that we have the clarity that people come into this as a couple and that most couples make the rule that either both get some or none...... how long does it happen that way? Meaning, lets say 7 parties in a row the guy strikes out even though his wife could have had 5 guys each of those nights? She is going to resent his ass soooooo bad. Marriage destroyed.
> 
> I saw the 15 million number used as the number of people involved in swinging and that was the reason given for why some of my neighbors are swingers. Is that 15 million people only counting the couples that truly enjoy swinging, or does that also include all the people in destroyed marriages? Reason I ask is because I wouldn't consider the destroyed marriage people swingers.


Same here. I'm 50, wife is 53. I grew up in a city, with lots of friends from all different walks of life. In fact non-Hispanic Caucasians are a minority. Anyway, the vast majority of the people I knew were completely free to choose who they were with and how many they were with. I'm sure there were mom's, as there always are and will be, that don't approve of a BF/GF, but I didn't see any girls/woman not able to pick whatever type they wanted. That was nearly 40 years ago and if anything it is getting better and more wide spread. 

On your second point, there are people that can handle this very successfully. The problem is you can do all the prior planning and talking, but you never really know if you can handle it until you have tried it. At that point it can never, ever be taken back. You will never be able to un-see, un-hear, un-smell, and my God un-taste everything that went on. That is a HUGE gamble with your marriage.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Hopefully you will entertain a few questions.
> 
> Any idea how often trying to get into this lifestyle has ended a marriage?
> 
> ...


I can only answer these from my own personal experience and perspective and can't speak for anyone else. Other people will have their own motives and agendas. 

#1: I don't have statistics so cannot say with any surety. I will say it does happen. What I can say with surety is if a couple thinks that swinging will be some form or marital or sexual therapy to help a troubled marriage or a troubled bedroom, it will explode spectacularly. If there are any cracks in the foundation of the marriage, they will be blown open. 

#2. It's more of a want than a need. I like it and I enjoy it. So did she. And everyone was consenting adults. Since all were in agreement then the only reason for denial would be denial itself. 

#3. This is going to be like trying to explain colors to the blind, but let me take my best stab at it. It's not about satisfaction or not satisfaction. It's about wanting to have experiences that two people can't do alone. You said in a post above that 3-ways with another woman would be ok. OK we wanted to experience a 3-way with another woman and that can't be done with just the two of us. She wanted to experience a 3-way with another man, I am only one guy. We both wanted to experience group sex. The two of us are not a group. It's really no more complex than that. It was something we wanted to experience....... so we did. Have you ever gone to Yellowstone or Disney Land because you want to?? We wanted to go to the party. 

#4. I answered the question about getting out above. There are as many reasons for getting out as there are people. 

#5. I'm not sure what kids have to do with it. This is adult activities for consenting adults. The kids stay home.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I apologize for this mini t/j
> 
> Diana, I see what point you are trying to make. I honestly do. I certainly don't fault you for it.
> 
> Its also the reason why I stopped going to church a long time ago. You could choose any sin you want. Doesn't matter. I'm gonna go with the tried and true "treat others the way you want to be treated". When I would go to church and see awful, despicable people that I know treated others like garbage, I couldn't take it anymore. Didn't matter what sin they were guilty of. I never saw these people at least attempt to become better people and stop their horrible behavior.


That's sad because in the many churches I have been to I have seen normal decent people doing their best to follow God and treat others with kindness. No one is perfect of course, but I just haven't seen what you have. If I had I would have tried another church. 

However not challenging regular church goers who are committing very serious sins and not being open to changing isn't the way things should work. 
If a pastor found out that a regular member was committing adultery, or stealing from the church funds, or cheating an old person our of money, or beating their wife, are you saying that they shouldn't be challenged on this? That they should be free to just carry on acting that way? To just sit in church week after week, month after month? 
Its not what the church are told to do. Remember Jesus forgave the woman caught committing adultery, but told her not to do it again? He didn't say you are free to have sex with whoever you like, please carry on. 

He expects us to stop these things and try and live his way. 
Not treat Him with such disrespect and disobedience.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I apologize for this mini t/j
> 
> Diana, I see what point you are trying to make. I honestly do. I certainly don't fault you for it.
> 
> Its also the reason why I stopped going to church a long time ago. You could choose any sin you want. Doesn't matter. I'm gonna go with the tried and true "treat others the way you want to be treated". When I would go to church and see awful, despicable people that I know treated others like garbage, I couldn't take it anymore. Didn't matter what sin they were guilty of. I never saw these people at least attempt to become better people and stop their horrible behavior.


That's sad because in the many churches I have been to I have seen normal decent people doing their best to follow God and treat others with kindness. No one is perfect of course, but I just haven't seen what you have. If I had I would have tried another church. 

However not challenging regular church goers who are committing very serious sins and not being open to changing isn't the way things should work. 
If a pastor found out that a regular member was committing adultery, or stealing from the church funds, or cheating an old person our of money, or beating their wife, are you saying that they shouldn't be challenged on this? That they should be free to just carry on acting that way? To just sit in church week after week, month after month? 
Its not what the church are told to do. Remember Jesus forgave the woman caught committing adultery, but told her not to do it again? He didn't say you are free to have sex with whoever you like, please carry on. 

He expects us to stop these things and try and live his way. 
Not treat Him with such disrespect and disobedience.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Secondly, I think your question on how many marriages are destroyed hasn't been addressed yet. I would be curious to see the statistics on how many lives just get gutted after something like this. I'm not going to say that people can't handle this. Of course they can. I'm sure there are many swinging couples that truly find enjoyment and have fulfilling lives, but I venture that more people get destroyed instead. Now that we have the clarity that people come into this as a couple and that most couples make the rule that either both get some or none...... how long does it happen that way? Meaning, lets say 7 parties in a row the guy strikes out even though his wife could have had 5 guys each of those nights? She is going to resent his ass soooooo bad. Marriage destroyed.
> 
> I saw the 15 million number used as the number of people involved in swinging and that was the reason given for why some of my neighbors are swingers. Is that 15 million people only counting the couples that truly enjoy swinging, or does that also include all the people in destroyed marriages? Reason I ask is because I wouldn't consider the destroyed marriage people swingers.











New Study Shows Swingers are More Likely to Stay Married


One of your neighbors posted in Neighbor News. Click through to read what they have to say. (The views expressed in this post are the author’s own.)




patch.com





"Swinging couples themselves have startlingly successful statistics in their favor, showing that their attitudes of freedom and open-mindedness is more conducive to creating long-lasting marriages."

This article is over 6 years old now, and divorce rates have fallen since then. Otherwise, the article reflects my understanding, experience, and past research.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> You've left out a couple important pros - You can have a lot of fun and you can have a lot of sex!!
> 
> It's like everything else in life, its what you make it. If you're a glass half empty kind of person and you don't like other people - yeah, you're going to hate it.
> 
> ...


I love a good dance party! The wife and I try to go out dancing once a month. Covid has been making that difficult. 

Having lots of fun and lots of sex does sound great, but I do get that with my wife. 

You are correct, it would be a nightmare for me.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I love a good dance party! The wife and I try to go out dancing once a month. Covid has been making that difficult.
> 
> Having lots of fun and lots of sex does sound great, but I do get that with my wife.
> 
> You are correct, it would be a nightmare for me.


I'm with you. Love a good dance party. Covid is a bear on that for now.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

@happyhusband0005 and @oldshirt Thanks for answering those questions. 

I think there has been probably too much focus on the party aspect of this. There a million possible permutations of this and I think the party scenario is at the more extreme end of the spectrum. When it is a smaller group and more intimate it is sounding more like a polyamorous relationship. 

@oldshirt In #3 you said that I said 3-ways with another woman are okay. I didn't actually say that. I said I can see how it might be more palatable, but I am still not okay with it in my marriage.

And for #5, I wasn't talking about the kids knowing about what mommy and daddy are doing with the neighbors. I meant when you purposely add risk into your marriage and you have kids you are adding risk to them and their family stability.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

We are


Diana7 said:


> That's sad because in the many churches I have been to I have seen normal decent people doing their best to follow God and treat others with kindness. No one is perfect of course, but I just haven't seen what you have. If I had I would have tried another church.
> 
> However not challenging regular church goers who are committing very serious sins and not being open to changing isn't the way things should work.
> If a pastor found out that a regular member was committing adultery, or stealing from the church funds, or cheating an old person our of money, or beating their wife, are you saying that they shouldn't be challenged on this? That they should be free to just carry on acting that way? To just sit in church week after week, month after month?
> ...


We are in agreement. Adultery in the eyes of God also includes swinging. It is a sin. If you want to follow Jesus’ teachings you’ll be forgiven for committing sin, but the caveat is that you have to give it your all not to do it again.

that didn’t happen at my church. The plan there was “do what you want, get absolved on Sunday then go back out and do what you want”.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

LATERILUS79 said:


> HappyHusband - if there was a situation where I could ever see a wall getting torn down in my mind, it would be your situation. I think the vast majority of the male population cannot handle another man being with their wife/gf. A bisexual wife? I think there is a significant portion of the male population where that is more palatable.


Yah obviously my situation is more like the male fantasy. I was not closed off to the idea of us with a couple but finding a situation where all 4 people are comfortable with each other is actually quite difficult in my experience. We went out and met other couples but there was never the right fit for it to turn sexual. Maybe our motivation wasn't high enough. @oldshirt has appropriately used the word journey, that is really what it is. You usually end up in with changing goals and become more comfortable and will to push the envelope more and more.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> New Study Shows Swingers are More Likely to Stay Married
> 
> 
> One of your neighbors posted in Neighbor News. Click through to read what they have to say. (The views expressed in this post are the author’s own.)
> ...


You are using that as evidence of success?

The title says "New Study Shows Swingers are More Likely to Stay Married." I had to read the article 3 times, but it never mentions a single stat on swingers, just the standard divorce rate stats. It never mentions or links to the "study". Lastly, I clicked on the link that was supposed to take you to Divorce Stas and it took me to a site with the Top 10 adult dating sites, WTF? LOL.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> New Study Shows Swingers are More Likely to Stay Married
> 
> 
> One of your neighbors posted in Neighbor News. Click through to read what they have to say. (The views expressed in this post are the author’s own.)
> ...


The article makes sense…. In a way. I think it makes good points, but it sounds like they are only talking to people that enjoy swinging. Like, they said swingers aren’t jealous. What? I think they need to define what is a “swinger”. What if a situation like BigDaddy says comes up? A couple thinks they are ready, they do it, the husband gets massively jealous and things just don’t work out. Is that a couple the article would consider to be a swinger? I would assume jealousy regulation is extremely difficult for most people. Do I think true swingers that enjoy the lifestyle are not jealous? Yeah! Absolutely. I just didn’t get the sense the article was talking to people that tried it out once and got turned off immediately - then follow up with those people to see if they got divorced.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Yah obviously my situation is more like the male fantasy. I was not closed off to the idea of us with a couple but finding a situation where all 4 people are comfortable with each other is actually quite difficult in my experience. We went out and met other couples but there was never the right fit for it to turn sexual. Maybe our motivation wasn't high enough. @oldshirt has appropriately used the word journey, that is really what it is. You usually end up in with changing goals and become more comfortable and will to push the envelope more and more.


I can see how that could happen (pushing the envelope over time). I’m a competitive person. I don’t feel the same feelings towards women as I do towards men, you know? I’m in it to win it. I could conceivably see a situation like yours where I wouldn’t feel the need to compete with a woman if my wife was bisexual. It doesn’t have that same “feeling” to it. I wouldn’t get the overwhelming urge to “mate guard”.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> But a lot of your posts oldshirt are like that. You say one thing then modify your statement later. I can't get a read on what you truly believe or what point you are trying to get across. The post that BigDaddyNY originally quoted? You were definitely talking about men bringing their wives to get railroaded while they sit on the sidelines. I don't know how you could read that post and not get that impression. Especially when you said that swinging was how a woman could fully experience her sexual desires.


I did go back and edit that post as I can see where people were getting that idea. It made sense in my mind as I was writing it but when I went back and reread it, I can see where people were coming away with that impression. 

Let me see if I can do a better job saying what I meant to say. You may not necessarily like it any better, but I least want it to be understood. 

I did not mean to imply that dudes bring their wives to get down while they stand along the sidelines watching (unless they're into that sort of thing which is another topic) 

What I was trying to explain is that women are kind of accepted and welcomed into the lifestyle fairly quickly where as men have to put in a bit more effort and initiative to meet people and be accepted etc. If a guy allows himself to just stand there and not put in the effort and initiative, he likely won't accomplish much. Unless he is very good looking, very few if any are just going to come up and take him by the hand. 

Now that is figuratively speaking. It's a general concept. 

As far as actual nuts and bolts practice. Most couples are there to play together as a couple and if they don't find someone where there is a 4-click and all play together, then they don't play. 

That happens quite a bit. Especially in the beginning until a couple finds some people where they all click together. 

In essence, the COUPLE goes home not having sex with other people. 

When I was writing that, I was writing about men at the time and made it sound like the women were always having sex while the men weren't. That was my bad. I should have been more clear that often both will opt not to play if both are not included. When I said most men go home without having sex, I should have been more clear that that usually means the wife did not either. 


HOWEVER in the interest of transparency, I need to add that this is something couples need to be very clear and explicit about both with each and with any other people they may get with to prevent someone from getting left out as it can happen if either one is particularly passive. 

Unless the guy is way head and shoulders better looking than his wife, the wife will always have more opportunity. If this is not something that the couple is very clear about with other and with other potential play partner, it would be easy for her to get caught up in the moment and the husband hanging back can get overlooked. 

The opposite can happen as well if a couple is not working together as a team. 

The key to success is always be working together as a team. 

I hope this helps clear that up.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> The article makes sense…. In a way. I think it makes good points, but it sounds like they are only talking to people that enjoy swinging. Like, they said swingers aren’t jealous. What? I think they need to define what is a “swinger”. What if a situation like BigDaddy says comes up? A couple thinks they are ready, they do it, the husband gets massively jealous and things just don’t work out. Is that a couple the article would consider to be a swinger? I would assume jealousy regulation is extremely difficult for most people. Do I think true swingers that enjoy the lifestyle are not jealous? Yeah! Absolutely. I just didn’t get the sense the article was talking to people that tried it out once and got turned off immediately - then follow up with those people to see if they got divorced.


It does seem logical. If you are open to swinging with your partner you should be able to take most infidelity as a reason to divorce off the table. Or at least you would think. As you said, that would be true of people actively and happily in the lifestyle. What about all the crash and burns?

However, based on that site I don't think that study even exists. That is nothing more than a spam article to get you to a dating site.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @happyhusband0005 and @oldshirt Thanks for answering those questions.
> 
> 
> @oldshirt In #3 you said that I said 3-ways with another woman are okay. I didn't actually say that. I said I can see how it might be more palatable, but I am still not okay with it in my marriage.
> ...


 #3: no matter how you slice it, you can't have a 3-way with two people.

#4; Ok I had no clue what you were talking about. 

So let me put it this way, you and I are completely different people with completely different temperments and idiologies and world views etc etc so I do not expect you to agree with me on this, but I hope you can at least understand that things are different for other people. --------- for some people, strict monogamy is the GREATER RISK to family stability. 

For my wife and I, the daily grind of bills and house repairs and child care etc etc was a greater risk to our happiness and home life than getting out and partying it up now and then. 

For some people life-long, strict monogamy simply does not work and they are at more risk of splitting up than if they have some kind of mutually agreed upon outlet. 

In my wife and I's case, it wasn't so much about wanting to have sex with other people per se, in fact with never went out one-on-one with anyone else. We wanted to have group sex together. 

it was a fun and enjoyable, adult activity that we did together. And it saved us from drowning in the quagmire of daily life of bills and laundry and mowing the lawn.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I did go back and edit that post as I can see where people were getting that idea. It made sense in my mind as I was writing it but when I went back and reread it, I can see where people were coming away with that impression.
> 
> Let me see if I can do a better job saying what I meant to say. You may not necessarily like it any better, but I least want it to be understood.
> 
> ...


It does. 

And these were always my assumptions as I "made up" the swinging rules in my head. 

I blame society for this in all honesty. 😂 Too many social constructs, not enough understanding of biology. It is very obvious that women would be more welcomed to the group. No question. Of course it is going to be that way. Biology dictates that. 

I guess I could see if someone truly enjoys the dating game this could be fun. My personality does not jive with that AT ALL. It would be my worst nightmare - especially getting handcuffed of all of my other attractive attributes that would be way easier to use in a bachelor scenario. I would be way too competitive in this scenario trying to keep pace with my wife which is an impossible game to play. I wouldn't have any fun with meeting people whatsoever. I don't mind meeting people, but to get to know me takes years. It is a very slow process as I don't trust very many people at all.

Regardless, Throwing out everything else and all I want is sex, the bachelor life would be far easier to maximize sex at 42 years old. 

I do think setting up a reverse-swinger party would be hilarious. Instead of the men getting handcuffed of their attractive attributes, the women get handcuffed of their main attractive attribute as well. All women stand behind a wall and have to get the men to choose them on their sparkling personality alone. No use of physical looks allowed. 🤣


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I can see how that could happen (pushing the envelope over time). I’m a competitive person. I don’t feel the same feelings towards women as I do towards men, you know? I’m in it to win it. I could conceivably see a situation like yours where I wouldn’t feel the need to compete with a woman if my wife was bisexual. It doesn’t have that same “feeling” to it. I wouldn’t get the overwhelming urge to “mate guard”.


Yah it's a losing battle when your wife is bisexual. She gets me all the time, put a sexy lady in front of her for 1 night and I am not very interesting. Now there might be a little competition between me and my wife. There was a few times I knew I was stealing the other woman's attention too much and would take a step back to make sure my wife got her fill.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> It does seem logical. If you are open to swinging with your partner you should be able to take most infidelity as a reason to divorce off the table. Or at least you would think. As you said, that would be true of people actively and happily in the lifestyle. What about all the crash and burns?
> 
> However, based on that site I don't think that study even exists. That is nothing more than a spam article to get you to a dating site.


lol. I didn't want to say it and I wanted to give it a chance, but that is how I read it as well. It seemed off. It made good points...... IF you are into the lifestyle. It didn't sound objective to those that crashed and burned.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Yah it's a losing battle when your wife is bisexual. She gets me all the time, put a sexy lady in front of her for 1 night and I am not very interesting. Now there might be a little competition between me and my wife. There was a few times I knew I was stealing the other woman's attention too much and would take a step back to make sure my wife got her fill.


If I did put monogamy to the side, Now THIS would actually sound fun. This would be a "friendly competition", you know?

When I'm competing with other men, it's business. There is no time for fun (for me). I do what I have to do to win.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

LATERILUS79 said:


> It does.
> 
> And these were always my assumptions as I "made up" the swinging rules in my head.
> 
> ...


I think @oldshirt 's intention with this thread is to honestly give people exactly what the title says. The biggest misconception I have seen on TAM here is the idea that people in the lifestyle feel we are superior, definitely not the case. Just different. I can appreciate that a couple who have only ever been with each other get tremendous satisfaction from just knowing that, and nothing they would ever do in the lifestyle environment would replace that, once it's gone it's gone. I applaud them, I don't look down on it at all. A motivating factor for my wife and I to get into it was the fact we had only ever been with each other, so we just looked at it different. For us it has brought us even closer than we were, I would say our sex life apart from any thrids being involved is better now than it was before, but that doesn't mean we have a better sex life than a couple who is monogamous and have only ever been with each other. We just took a different path.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

LATERILUS79 said:


> If I did put monogamy to the side, Now THIS would actually sound fun. This would be a "friendly competition", you know?
> 
> When I'm competing with other men, it's business. There is no time for fun (for me). I do what I have to do to win.


Yah I have also been straight up kicked in the chest, no subtlety in that message.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Yah I have also been straight up kicked in the chest, no subtlety in that message.


Wait, what?!

Explain.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I do think setting up a reverse-swinger party would be hilarious. Instead of the men getting handcuffed of their attractive attributes, the women get handcuffed of their main attractive attribute as well. All women stand behind a wall and have to get the men to choose them on their sparkling personality alone. No use of physical looks allowed. 🤣


People have already thought of that. 

Look up what a "Glory Hole" is LOL 

You'll never catch me doing that, but it is a thing.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I blame society for this in all honesty. 😂 Too many social constructs, not enough understanding of biology. It is very obvious that women would be more welcomed to the group. No question. Of course it is going to be that way. Biology dictates that.
> 
> I would be way too competitive in this scenario trying to keep pace with my wife which is an impossible game to play.


While it is fact that women will always have more opportunity, I don't want to play too dark of a picture as cosmic forces do have a way of balancing out. 

While a woman would likely be welcomed and invited by all, women are 6,324,981,632 times pickier than men. So while a woman would have limitless opportunity, she would only select a very few. 

My wife is a lot better looking than I am but most of the times we went home empty handed was do to her not wanting to play with anyone even though there were chicks that would have played with me. 

Finding that 4-way click was the most challenging aspect of swinging but things have a way of working out and the times that it did happen, more than made of for the times it didn't.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I think @oldshirt 's intention with this thread is to honestly give people exactly what the title says. The biggest misconception I have seen on TAM here is the idea that people in the lifestyle feel we are superior, definitely not the case. Just different. I can appreciate that a couple who have only ever been with each other get tremendous satisfaction from just knowing that, and nothing they would ever do in the lifestyle environment would replace that, once it's gone it's gone. I applaud them, I don't look down on it at all. A motivating factor for my wife and I to get into it was the fact we had only ever been with each other, so we just looked at it different. For us it has brought us even closer than we were, I would say our sex life apart from any thrids being involved is better now than it was before, but that doesn't mean we have a better sex life than a couple who is monogamous and have only ever been with each other. We just took a different path.


I have to tell a story that my wife and I talked about as we were having our first discussions about getting into the lifestyle. 

The base of the story i read on in an article on swing website so I can not claim it as my own but the convo my wife and I had about it is real. 

So we pictured ourselves in our final days on this earth walking hand in hand on beach into the setting sun. We are reflecting on our lives together and the triumphs, the defeats, the joys and tragedies. 

We come to a fork on the beach (I know beached don't have forks but go with me on this) down one fork we can say that we never touched another during our time together and that our love and sexuality were only with each other despite whatever urges and yearnings and temptations we may have experienced during our time together. 

A very admirable vision indeed. And like you, I do not criticise it in the slightest. I admire it in many ways. 

However the other fork we can take is as we reflect on our lives and acknowledge that we recognised the instinctual desire for variety and that we have experienced the flesh of another and yet we have chosen to walk this path together anyway. 

Most people will choose the former path. 

We chose the latter path.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Wait, what?!
> 
> Explain.


So situation is I am, lets saying intimately engaged with a nice lady and that lady is enjoying working her magic between my wife's thighs. I must have been causing the lady to start and stop what she was doing to my wife too much and I suddenly take a foot to the sternum. Wife claims she was trying to signal me. I do always say I don't read minds. Don't give me subtle hints. She was just going by what I said. I still think about that one at random times and start cracking up.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I have to tell a story that my wife and I talked about as we were having our first discussions about getting into the lifestyle.
> 
> The base of the story i read on in an article on swing website so I can not claim it as my own but the convo my wife and I had about it is real.
> 
> ...


Great analogy and this concept played a very large role in our decision to enter the pool as well.


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Talker67 said:


> I recently grilled some pineapple:
> 
> View attachment 82002
> 
> ...


looks great. Send me a recipe. It is a whole lot better than talking about swinging.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> #3: no matter how you slice it, you can't have a 3-way with two people.
> 
> #4; Ok I had no clue what you were talking about.
> 
> ...


I understand that completely. There are some people that can't stick to monogamy. I think this is really a compatibility issue.

You are going to have couples where both are completely committed to monogamy, both are not committed to monogamy and finally where one, but not the other is completely committed to monogamy. Unfortunately you don't always know that going in. 

For the couples that are completely committed the risk of infidelity as a source of family instability and divorce shouldn't be an issue. 

That last group is going to have the highest risk of divorce due to infidelity. However, swinging or opening the marriage isn't going to work because both parties aren't on the same page, they have an incompatibility. Someone is either going to have to change that commitment or there will be a greater risk to family instability.

If neither are committed to non-monogamy then obviously swinging or opening the marriage in some way isn't going to add to the risk of family stability/divorce. You are compatible in that regard. The problem is you don't always know for sure if you both feel this way going in. You may find after long discussion and finally trying out the lifestyle that you are both compatible with this idea and all is good. However, what happens if they do try it out, one loves it and the other not so much? It turns out they aren't on the same page and not compatible. Or what happens when it doesn't get past the discussion stage, yet one of them was really into the idea? Aren't those couples just a variation of the incompatible couples from the group of greater risk couples?


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I understand that completely. There are some people that can't stick to monogamy. I think this is really a compatibility issue.
> 
> You are going to have couples where both are completely committed to monogamy, both are not committed to monogamy and finally where one, but not the other is completely committed to monogamy. Unfortunately you don't always know that going in.
> 
> ...


my deal is this. Why not just be FWB if you are going to live that lifestyle ? Why have other people or bring other people into your marriage ? I agree with your analysis but if I was going to peg other women, why am I getting married ? I can love someone without disgracing my marital vows. I personally have seen swinging and open marriages fail at an alarming rate. They keep score, get sloppy seconds and are disgusted by it, be betrayed with plans, rule breakings and so forth. My last post on this thread because it disgusts me.

Don't get married if you are going this route and stop ruining other relationships


BTW Bigdaddy, that was a general statement. It was not a response to you but a statement in general. You and I are on the same side IMO based on your postings


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> So situation is I am, lets saying intimately engaged with a nice lady and that lady is enjoying working her magic between my wife's thighs. I must have been causing the lady to start and stop what she was doing to my wife too much and I suddenly take a foot to the sternum. Wife claims she was trying to signal me. I do always say I don't read minds. Don't give me subtle hints. She was just going by what I said. I still think about that one at random times and start cracking up.


I’m slow on the uptake, but I’m following now.

since it was your sternum, I’m going to assume she either rotated her body and kicked upwards or she had been working on her glutes and donkey kicked you.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

wmn1 said:


> my deal is this. Why not just be FWB if you are going to live that lifestyle ? Why have other people or bring other people into your marriage ? I agree with your analysis but if I was going to peg other women, why am I getting married ? I can love someone without disgracing my marital vows. I personally have seen swinging and open marriages fail at an alarming rate. They keep score, get sloppy seconds and are disgusted by it, be betrayed with plans, rule breakings and so forth. My last post on this thread because it disgusts me.
> 
> Don't get married if you are going this route and stop ruining other relationships
> 
> ...


Keeping score, getting grossed out and the temptation for betrayal. I get it if people can get through it. I know everyone’s minds don’t work like mine.

regardless, you hit the nail on the head for me. These are things I wouldn’t be able to overcome.


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> We are
> 
> We are in agreement. Adultery in the eyes of God also includes swinging. It is a sin. If you want to follow Jesus’ teachings you’ll be forgiven for committing sin, but the caveat is that you have to give it your all not to do it again.
> 
> that didn’t happen at my church. The plan there was “do what you want, get absolved on Sunday then go back out and do what you want”.


agreed. Swinging is cheating. Just accepted between partners until the divorce starts hitting when lines are crossed. When they piss all over a marriage in the eyes of God, they will be made to atone


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Keeping score, getting grossed out and the temptation for betrayal. I get it if people can get through it. I know everyone’s minds don’t work like mine.
> 
> regardless, you hit the nail on the head for me. These are things I wouldn’t be able to overcome.


yeah. Me neither. They can have it. If my wife came to me and suggested it, to me, that means it's already a lost cause and we'll be in court. Thanks. Glad we agree


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

wmn1 said:


> agreed. Swinging is cheating. Just accepted between partners until the divorce starts hitting when lines are crossed. When they piss all over a marriage in the eyes of God, they will be made to atone


I follow what you are saying, I do….. but I won’t agree that swinging is cheating as long as both people are truly into it and one is not being pressured by the other.

I personally believe it breaks a very special bond between two people (the way cheating would), but not everyone feels that special bond the way I do. I’m not going to condemn others for their brains working in a different way than mine


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> While it is fact that women will always have more opportunity, I don't want to play too dark of a picture as cosmic forces do have a way of balancing out.
> 
> While a woman would likely be welcomed and invited by all, women are 6,324,981,632 times pickier than men. So while a woman would have limitless opportunity, she would only select a very few.
> 
> ...


women have it a whole lot easier. And many are not pickier. My wife could get 5x more than me. So what is in it for me ? And I didn't get married to F other woman. I would have stayed single. I would rather go to hell than watch some other guy banging my wife on the couch. I am no cuckold


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

wmn1 said:


> yeah. Me neither. They can have it. If my wife came to me and suggested it, to me, that means it's already a lost cause and we'll be in court. Thanks. Glad we agree


And this harkens back to the previous thread.

it’s not a guarantee divorce for me, but my skepticism will shoot through the roof and I’ll require some period of time to figure out if my wife wanted to discuss doing this or if she mentioned it as a simple curiosity. Regardless, it is so out of character that I would have no choice but to be skeptical. Divorce though would not be an overnight decision.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I think @oldshirt 's intention with this thread is to honestly give people exactly what the title says. The biggest misconception I have seen on TAM here is the idea that people in the lifestyle feel we are superior, definitely not the case. Just different. I can appreciate that a couple who have only ever been with each other get tremendous satisfaction from just knowing that, and nothing they would ever do in the lifestyle environment would replace that, once it's gone it's gone. I applaud them, I don't look down on it at all. A motivating factor for my wife and I to get into it was the fact we had only ever been with each other, so we just looked at it different. For us it has brought us even closer than we were, I would say our sex life apart from any thrids being involved is better now than it was before, but that doesn't mean we have a better sex life than a couple who is monogamous and have only ever been with each other. We just took a different path.


So well said. I am genuinely trying to not come off as if I and my marriage is superior either, although I'm not sure I'm doing a very good job of it, lol. I am trying, I promise. 

I want nothing more than for all people to have happy, fulfilled lives and I believe having an intimate partner in life you are compatible with is an integral part of that. I see how happy my wife and I are and I know our recipe works for us so it is only natural to want to tell other people this is how it works. I have to remind myself there is no one size fits all in relationships. If you have achieved that happiness with whatever configuration you come up with it is fine with me, so long as no one else's happiness is tread on. 

I am actively trying to be more accepting of lifestyles that aren't aligned with mine. I'll never agree with lifestyles/cultures that promote oppression, violence, etc. of some groups, but if you are causing no harm to anyone else then have at it. I struggled a long time with accepting the lifestyle of gay men. As a kid I lived in a row home apartment that was 4 doors down from a gay bar. I was hit on ALL the time as a teenager, as early 14-15 years old. (I did look older than I was, I was 6 feet tall by 6th grade.) It drove me crazy, I hated it and got in numerous fights with full grown men. It took some maturity to realize these were some bad actors and not all homosexuals are bad. Shear numbers there are many worse hetro people in the world. I've changed my views. Although I may be poking at the various aspects of this lifestyle it doesn't mean I don't respect your right to make that choice. And if you really feel strongly about it, then it should stand up to scrutiny


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I understand that completely. There are some people that can't stick to monogamy. I think this is really a compatibility issue.
> 
> You are going to have couples where both are completely committed to monogamy, both are not committed to monogamy and finally where one, but not the other is completely committed to monogamy. Unfortunately you don't always know that going in.
> 
> ...


There are a whole host of risks, you can also have a couple who are both completely comfortable with non-monogamy and enthusiastic but one or both don't have 100% respect for their partners boundaries. This couple can still have a bad outcome. Lots of ways things can go wrong. 

Thats why I think this thread can be valuable. There have been plenty of people who have come to TAM over the years and discussed they were considering opening up their marriage. I think this thread has created a very good discussion based on reality not the fantasy. I think a lot of people considering it would read this thread and have second thoughts or at least slow down and have some more discussions about things.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> There are a whole host of risks, you can also have a couple who are both completely comfortable with non-monogamy and enthusiastic but one or both don't have 100% respect for their partners boundaries. This couple can still have a bad outcome. Lots of ways things can go wrong.
> 
> Thats why I think this thread can be valuable. There have been plenty of people who have come to TAM over the years and discussed they were considering opening up their marriage. I think this thread has created a very good discussion based on reality not the fantasy. I think a lot of people considering it would read this thread and have second thoughts or at least slow down and have some more discussions about things.


I agree. This thread is painting a much more accurate picture than you will get from the typical source for those people coming here asking about opening their marriage. Typically porn sites are their source.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So well said. I am genuinely trying to not come off as if I and my marriage is superior either, although I'm not sure I'm doing a very good job of it, lol. I am trying, I promise.
> 
> I want nothing more than for all people to have happy, fulfilled lives and I believe having an intimate partner in life you are compatible with is an integral part of that. I see how happy my wife and I are and I know our recipe works for us so it is only natural to want to tell other people this is how it works. I have to remind myself there is no one size fits all in relationships. If you have achieved that happiness with whatever configuration you come up with it is fine with me, so long as no one else's happiness is tread on.
> 
> I am actively trying to be more accepting of lifestyles that aren't aligned with mine. I'll never agree with lifestyles/cultures that promote oppression, violence, etc. of some groups, but if you are causing no harm to anyone else then have at it. I struggled a long time with accepting the lifestyle of gay men. As a kid I lived in a row home apartment that was 4 doors down from a gay bar. I was hit on ALL the time as a teenager, as early 14-15 years old. (I did look older than I was, I was 6 feet tall by 6th grade.) It drove me crazy, I hated it and got in numerous fights with full grown men. It took some maturity to realize these were some bad actors and not all homosexuals are bad. Shear numbers there are many worse hetro people in the world. I've changed my views. Although I may be poking at the various aspects of this lifestyle it doesn't mean I don't respect your right to make that choice. And if you really feel strongly about it, then it should stand up to scrutiny


Keep in mind when we were first married my view was not what it is today. If Los Angeles and now way never would consider that and New York was lets go for it, my feelings on the subject was probably around Las Vegas. Thought it was interesting but had no desire to go down that road. 

So I can fully get where people with negative views on the idea are coming from. 

With people who ask me for advice on the lifestyle I probably come across as a downer because I start with the potential negatives and more often than not tell them they are probably at least a year of thinking and discussing before they take action. Over excitement and rose colored glasses will increase the potential of making a bad decision. It's like someone getting all excited about moving across the country after visiting a place on vacation. It all seems fun and new and exciting when your first infatuated with the idea. Often though when you delay the decision and really think about it and talk to some people who live there and really consider the reality of the move it slowly seems less attractive.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I agree. This thread is painting a much more accurate picture than you will get from the typical source for those people coming here asking about opening their marriage. Typically porn sites are their source.


You wouldn't think people would rely on porn for real world ideas but we have seen it too many times. Thats why the world needs people like @CatholicDad might not agree with his view as a whole but he has some good points.


----------



## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Most couples are in it to play together where either both of them play together or neither of them do. (for some it's ok if only one does, but for most they want to play together)
> 
> So if a couple does not find someone else where they all click, they both do not play that night.


Your post (#70) made it seem like the men often are on the sidelines, with no mention of the wife.


----------



## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> I suppose if you didn’t like the look of your “prize” you could just steal their car instead. 😁


[/QUOTE]
But then who has YOUR keys? Bring a beater.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

wmn1 said:


> my deal is this. Why not just be FWB if you are going to live that lifestyle ? Why have other people or bring other people into your marriage ? I agree with your analysis but if I was going to peg other women, why am I getting married ? I can love someone without disgracing my marital vows. I personally have seen swinging and open marriages fail at an alarming rate. They keep score, get sloppy seconds and are disgusted by it, be betrayed with plans, rule breakings and so forth. My last post on this thread because it disgusts me.
> 
> Don't get married if you are going this route and stop ruining other relationships


First off, no relationships were harmed in our swinging experience.

As far as why not just be FWB and not marry, I can only address from my personal experience and the answer to why we married is because we were full grown adults and we wanted to. 

I don’t know if I’ve mentioned it in this thread or another, but we had a completely traditional, monogamous marriage for 10 years. 

I was in my early 40s and wife in late 30s when we began discussing it. Things change. People change. One’s outlooks and world views can change over time.

I felt and thought just like you and the others for a long time....... until I didn’t. 

That me and my perspective.

In society as a general trend, there are more and more people choosing alternatives to traditional, monogamous marriage. Many are choosing to keep their options open or have FWBs or spin plates or whatever. 

Some are choosing to have committed, monogamous long term relationships without involving the government and not getting married. 

This is the Baskin Robbins Effect I mentioned earlier. There are more flavors of relationships available today than the vanilla, chocolate and strawberry of yesteryear. 

Consenting adults are choosing their own paths for what works for them.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

manwithnoname said:


> Your post (#70) made it seem like the men often are on the sidelines, with no mention of the wife.


I know. I didn’t word that well.

I went back and edited it hoping that worded it better.

See my post # 129.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> You wouldn't think people would rely on porn for real world ideas but we have seen it too many times. Thats why the world needs people like @CatholicDad might not agree with his view as a whole but he has some good points.


Unfortunately, the majority of the population is not very intelligent and doesn’t have common sense. Porn is a tool for a mechanical release. You have to view it like a movie. Suspension of disbelief. It’s not real.

anyways, your approach to swinging when talking to others is the moral way to do it. I agree 100% that you should come at it negatively when discussing it with others. No question. It has to be something that people really really really want. It’s no joke. I honestly believe you’ve most likely saved a lot of marriages from ruin by speaking this way.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Unfortunately, the majority of the population is not very intelligent and doesn’t have common sense. Porn is a tool for a mechanical release. You have to view it like a movie. Suspension of disbelief. It’s not real.
> 
> anyways, your approach to swinging when talking to others is the moral way to do it. I agree 100% that you should come at it negatively when discussing it with others. No question. It has to be something that people really really really want. It’s no joke. I honestly believe you’ve most likely saved a lot of marriages from ruin by speaking this way.


Never thought about it that way. Porn is a Romcom not a documentary, lol.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> New Study Shows Swingers are More Likely to Stay Married
> 
> 
> One of your neighbors posted in Neighbor News. Click through to read what they have to say. (The views expressed in this post are the author’s own.)
> ...


Thankfully we can be free and open-minded within a faithful marriage. Except about unfaithfulness. 
I just dont believe that people who are unfaithful have stronger marriages with less divorces.


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> First off, no relationships were harmed in our swinging experience.
> 
> As far as why not just be FWB and not marry, I can only address from my personal experience and the answer to why we married is because we were full grown adults and we wanted to.
> 
> ...


and that is why divorce rates continue to climb. Because people change behaviors and can't accept what they agreed to.

In my opinion, anytime you are getting sloppy seconds from your wife or husband when they get home after getting banged by someone else, it really sounds disgusting to me. 

I could have been single and banging everyone out there without going through the legal trouble of getting divorced when there were inequities or when she decides to emotionally and physically be with someone else. 

I am all for people doing what they want but I will sit back and laugh when their foolish decisions bites them is the a$$.

I have no sympathies when open marriages break. I actually praise the lord when they do.


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Thankfully we can be free and open-minded within a faithful marriage. Except about unfaithfulness.
> I just dont believe that people who are unfaithful have stronger marriages with less divorces.


agreed









I don't believe in open relationships


11 Reasons to Never Enter into an Open Relationship




ideapod.com





In my luck, any of these would happen.

Look, a number of people in my former employer started swinging about 2005 with each other. 17 years later, 15 of 19 are divorced, many with kids in broken homes. 4 have jokes of marriages which are barely hanging on. I guess 'swinging' worked for them. Jealousy, lack of equity, two wives getting pregnant, STDs and someone on the other side being better killed it.

If one is not happy with what they are getting married to, don't get fking married.

I agree Diana. That's why only 5% here try it.

Then we get to infidelity where people cheat in one sided open marriages. I wonder why people take them back


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I want to take moment to address another part of swinger lore and mythology that someone mentioned in an earlier post, and that is how swinging relates to cheating and that “swingers don’t need to cheat.”

Ok I can understand where that concept comes from as since people have an approved of method to get variety, “they won’t need to cheat.”

First off I have an issue with the concept of “needing” to cheat, but that’s for another thread.

But getting back on track, we need to make some important distinctions - cheating is often more of a character issue and selfishness issue and boundary issue more than a sexual variety issue or even a sexual issue at all.

Swinging doesn’t prevent cheating any more than monogamy causes it. 

If you believe swinging prevents cheating, then you must also see monogamy as causation. 

There are cheaters that are in the swing lifestyle. 

There are people in the lifestyle, there for all the crappy things that people can do like lie, cheat, steal, kick puppies etc there are people in the lifestyle that do that stuff. 

Swinging does not in itself prevent cheating and it should never be looked at as a means to prevent cheating. Period.

Cheaters will cheat whether they are in monogamous or swing relationships.

The faithful will be faithful whether they are in monogamous or swing relationships.

Supposedly there are supposed to be some kind of statistics floating around out there that indicate on the whole that lifestyle marriages experience less infidelity than traditional marriages. 

Ok fine. 

But I would certainly not ever put blind faith that adopting a swinger lifestyle will guarantee no infidelity. 

I personally do not think the two concepts are related at all but that’s me.


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> I want to take moment to address another part of swinger lore and mythology that someone mentioned in an earlier post, and that is how swinging relates to cheating and that “swingers don’t need to cheat.”
> 
> Ok I can understand where that concept comes from as since people have an approved of method to get variety, “they won’t need to cheat.”
> 
> ...



yeah I will disagree with much of what you say but I will exit this thread now. Swinging is cheating. It's called consensual cheating in my book. But hey, if a guy wants a bigger dude to put his piece in his wife's butt, good for him. Ain't happening in my marriage. I will never consent to that. I value my marriage too much.

Peace out


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

wmn1 said:


> and that is why divorce rates continue to climb. Because people change behaviors and can't accept what they agreed to.
> 
> In my opinion, anytime you are getting sloppy seconds from your wife or husband when they get home after getting banged by someone else, it really sounds disgusting to me.
> 
> ...


Then it’s not for you. Plain and simple. 

I’m not here to be either a salesman for swinging nor ring the alarm bells against it.

I have been in both 10 years of traditional marriage, then 10 years in the lifestyle, and now several years of traditional marriage again. 

I can see several sides of the good, the bad and the ugly.

I’m sharing my personal opinions and observations based on my experience, my research and my discussions with others so that people can make up their own minds and make their own informed decisions. 

You do you.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

wmn1 said:


> yeah I will disagree with much of what you say but I will exit this thread now. Swinging is cheating. It's called consensual cheating in my book. But hey, if a guy wants a bigger dude to put his piece in his wife's butt, good for him. Ain't happening in my marriage. I will never consent to that. I value my marriage too much.
> 
> Peace out


It may not be cheating in once sense but it's still adultery.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Well, I was looking for something to put in the pro column for swinging and old shirt provided.

kicking puppies.


----------



## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Critical word in your post is "Could". 😂


Would be fun. Should be fun. Could be fun. Sheesh, am I back in high school English? LOL


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Would be fun. Should be fun. Could be fun. Sheesh, am I back in high school English? LOL


Sorry. That joke didn’t land.

I read the word “could” as in “famous last words”.

sure, it could be fun. You get in the car and there is a curvy beautiful gal.

you “could” also get in a car that has a 500lb behemoth.


----------



## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Sorry. That joke didn’t land.
> 
> I read the word “could” as in “famous last words”.
> 
> ...


but what if the 500-lb behemoth was the best sex you ever had and the curvy beautiful gal was cold as ice?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> but what if the 500-lb behemoth was the best sex you ever had and the curvy beautiful gal was cold as ice?


Anything truly is possible. I’m gonna go with the much higher probability on the beautiful curvy gal. 😂


----------



## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Anything truly is possible. I’m gonna go with the much higher probability on the beautiful curvy gal. 😂


One of the best kissers I've ever had the pleasure of knowing was a BBW. Truth. We never did more, but I always wondered "if she's this good at kissing.... " LOL


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Longtime Hubby said:


> but what if the 500-lb behemoth was the best sex you ever had and the curvy beautiful gal was cold as ice?


That's just wrong. 🙄🙄🙄


----------



## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> That's just wrong. 🙄🙄🙄


One never knows


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Longtime Hubby said:


> One never knows


And please don't tell!! 🤣🤣🤣


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Never thought about it that way. Porn is a Romcom not a documentary, lol.


Well, yeah!

look at it this way: ever notice most of the actors are really physically fit? It isn’t just for good looks. They are sweating their asses off. Holding specific positions that look great on camera doesn’t come cheap!😂 it’s a straight up workout for all the crazy isometric holds that they are doing. I much prefer the amateur couples that upload their own stuff from home. now those folks give me plenty of sweet ideas because they are normal people and will have sex in positions that are far more pleasurable as opposed to a highly taxing workout.

I have to laugh my ass off when some guys want the porn star treatment. Oh really, Bud? You gonna pick up 150lbs and hold it off the ground for 10 minutes all the while plowing away?! Good luck… hope you’ve been putting in time at the gym building up some proper meat hooks and blasting some core exercises. I know how taxing it can be. Sometimes my wife gets….. umm……too relaxed? Maybe let’s me do all the work? She enjoys hopping on top and likes it when I pick her up, thrust her down on me all the while I thrust up too. So get to do both movements. She will typically ask, “are you ok?!” After she hears Me huffing and puffing all the while I’m sweating my ass off.
Yeah babe, I’m good. Orgasm happened. That was an excellent workout. 😂 been lifting pretty hard for the past 5 months now to get back to my early 20s strength. I think sometimes my wife is taking advantage of my new found strength.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

But then who has YOUR keys? Bring a beater.
[/QUOTE]
By beater do you mean the car or the partner?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> One of the best kissers I've ever had the pleasure of knowing was a BBW. Truth. We never did more, but I always wondered "if she's this good at kissing.... " LOL


I can deal with a lot. 500lbs is beyond my limit.

that’s another thing I wouldn’t be able to handle. Not in the least. Another man kissing my wife passionately. Ugh. That to me is into the emotional connection area. I couldnt face that. If by some crazy way I could get past the physical part, I can’t also lose the emotional by seeing her kiss another man.


for some odd reason though, I’m on the fence about being able to handle her kissing a woman, but I don’t see that happening as she isn’t bi.


----------



## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I can deal with a lot. 500lbs is beyond my limit.
> 
> that’s another thing I wouldn’t be able to handle. Not in the least. Another man kissing my wife passionately. Ugh. That to me is into the emotional connection area. I couldnt face that. If by some crazy way I could get past the physical part, I can’t also lose the emotional by seeing her kiss another man.
> 
> ...


Well, I think 500 is pretty hard to find. Maybe 3 bills, lol. .. The kissing thing is interesting. Cuz she's not big into kissing. Used to be. Not so much now. So I don't know if that would be a factor or not, her with another man. Now, her kissing a woman? Count me in. She claims no experience with that. Claims not curious. Honestly, I'm not so sure as stories i wishiper with that theme ... are very well received. ... One time, afterwards, I asked "did that really happen, did I find one of your secret memories?" (she never reveals much) She says "no," but that story ...I had to keep adding details to it until a certain goal was achieved.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So well said. I am genuinely trying to not come off as if I and my marriage is superior either, although I'm not sure I'm doing a very good job of it, lol. I am trying, I promise.
> 
> I want nothing more than for all people to have happy, fulfilled lives and I believe having an intimate partner in life you are compatible with is an integral part of that. I see how happy my wife and I are and I know our recipe works for us so it is only natural to want to tell other people this is how it works. I have to remind myself there is no one size fits all in relationships. If you have achieved that happiness with whatever configuration you come up with it is fine with me, so long as no one else's happiness is tread on.
> 
> I am actively trying to be more accepting of lifestyles that aren't aligned with mine. I'll never agree with lifestyles/cultures that promote oppression, violence, etc. of some groups, but if you are causing no harm to anyone else then have at it. I struggled a long time with accepting the lifestyle of gay men. As a kid I lived in a row home apartment that was 4 doors down from a gay bar. I was hit on ALL the time as a teenager, as early 14-15 years old. (I did look older than I was, I was 6 feet tall by 6th grade.) It drove me crazy, I hated it and got in numerous fights with full grown men. It took some maturity to realize these were some bad actors and not all homosexuals are bad. Shear numbers there are many worse hetro people in the world. I've changed my views. Although I may be poking at the various aspects of this lifestyle it doesn't mean I don't respect your right to make that choice. And if you really feel strongly about it, then it should stand up to scrutiny


You know, this reminded me of something that old shirt said before. He discussed swingers as being persecuted even though what they are doing is perfectly legal.

People are gonna associate with who they want to associate with and people are gonna do what they wanna do regardless of the legality.

to your situation of being hit on by gay guys: that’s happened to me before a few times as well. To be honest, I was flattered. Hey, If someone finds me physically attractive then im doing something right!

Point being, just because something is legal doesn’t mean I want to be around it. Just because I accept and agree with someone wanting to go find their happiness doesn’t mean I want to see it. I don’t look up gay porn because I would get sick to my stomach to see one guy plow another. Doesn’t change the fact that it is legal. So what? I’m not into it so I don’t want to be around it.

the legal argument falls flat for me. Plenty o’ things out there that are legal that I don’t want to be near.


----------



## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> You know, this reminded me of something that old shirt said before. He discussed swingers as being persecuted even though what they are doing is perfectly legal.
> 
> People are gonna associate with who they want to associate with and people are gonna do what they wanna do regardless of the legality.
> 
> ...


This reminds me of being hit on by a guy way back when at a large party. I was in my late 20s, I'm guessing he was maybe in his 40s. Nothing happened as I politely turned him down, but, yes, it was flattering. No doubt.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> for some odd reason though, I’m on the fence about being able to handle her kissing a woman, but I don’t see that happening as she isn’t bi.


I don't think that is odd at all. Not wanting another man with your wife is instinctive and biological, while not wanting to see you wife with another woman is conscious choice you make. The man is a threat even if he doesn't steal her form you. Your instinct is to keep your genetic line going and a man only needs 30 seconds to interrupt that cycle. A woman can't do that unless she outright gets your wife to leave you. Not to mention on some instinctual level your brain see that woman as another opportunity to spread you DNA.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sex-diseases-swingers-idUSTRE65M6NX20100624https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sex-diseases-swingers-idUSTRE65M6NX20100624











Aging Swingers at High STD Risk


Aging Swingers at High STD Risk




www.medicinenet.com













How aware are swingers about their swing sex partners’ risk behaviours, and sexually transmitted infection status? - BMC Infectious Diseases


Background Swingers are members of a heterosexual couple who, as a couple, have sex with others. They constitute a hidden subpopulation that is at risk for sexually transmitted infections (STIs). This study aimed to determine swingers’ level of awareness about the STI risk (indicators: bisexual...




bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com





Just provided for your information.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Well, I think 500 is pretty hard to find. Maybe 3 bills, lol. .. The kissing thing is interesting. Cuz she's not big into kissing. Used to be. Not so much now. So I don't know if that would be a factor or not, her with another man. Now, her kissing a woman? Count me in. She claims no experience with that. Claims not curious. Honestly, I'm not so sure as stories i wishiper with that theme ... are very well received. ... One time, afterwards, I asked "did that really happen, did I find one of your secret memories?" (she never reveals much) She says "no," but that story ...I had to keep adding details to it until a certain goal was achieved.


Woah. My wife and yours are quite similar. 

My wife is also very reserved. Definitely doesn't reveal much. She used to be big into kissing. Not these days. When she is super in the mood (like when we ended our dead bedroom and went through a 5 month hysterical bonding period), she would have a lot more sexual dreams, then she would tell me these during sex. These always revolved around her and another woman pleasing me. As long as they stayed as just words during sex, I'm personally cool with it. That's all the excitement I need - and yes, she would kiss the other woman in the dream. So in the dream..... yeah, I'm pretty cool with that. I enjoyed myself. 😁 

We still do passionately kiss, but it is only during specific sex sessions when we are really emotionally bonding (going slow, holding each other tightly, telling each other how much we are in love with one another). That is why I associate it so much with an emotional bond. Seeing her kiss another man would destroy that bond for me.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> You know, this reminded me of something that old shirt said before. He discussed swingers as being persecuted even though what they are doing is perfectly legal.
> 
> People are gonna associate with who they want to associate with and people are gonna do what they wanna do regardless of the legality.
> 
> ...


I don't want to side track into a gay discussion, but I will say this. Today if a gay guy hit on me I would just kindly turn it down. Back then most of the gay men were also some of the worst humans around too. I wasn't mature enough to separate the two. I made the association that gay men equaled the lowlife. I've since learn that they were actually lowlifes that happened to be gay too. 

And you are right, there are a lot of things people do that are legal, but I would rather not be around that activity or the people that engage in it.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Longtime Hubby said:


> but what if the 500-lb behemoth was the best sex you ever had and the curvy beautiful gal was cold as ice?


Well, I'm dominant so I rely more on a partner's hotness than their overall talents.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LATERILUS79 said:


> You know, this reminded me of something that old shirt said before. He discussed swingers as being persecuted even though what they are doing is perfectly legal.


What? Swingers persecuted?

Sex itself has no moral standing for me, its just sex. Honesty, respect, these things have FAR more meaning and a lot of swingers / people in open relationships have that in abundance.

So swing away! Wouldn't mind a nice groupie between friends myself lol but not with someone I'm in love with. That's my boundary.
And that's the great thing I found about swingers and those in that lifestyle, because they are HARD on boundaries.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

RandomDude said:


> What? Swingers persecuted?
> 
> Sex itself has no moral standing for me, its just sex. Honesty, respect, these things have FAR more meaning and a lot of swingers / people in open relationships have that in abundance.
> 
> ...


Earlier in this thread and in the prior. Old shirt said they were persecuted.


----------



## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Well, yeah!
> 
> look at it this way: ever notice most of the actors are really physically fit? It isn’t just for good looks. They are sweating their asses off. Holding specific positions that look great on camera doesn’t come cheap!😂 it’s a straight up workout for all the crazy isometric holds that they are doing. I much prefer the amateur couples that upload their own stuff from home. now those folks give me plenty of sweet ideas because they are normal people and will have sex in positions that are far more pleasurable as opposed to a highly taxing workout.
> 
> ...


Plus, in the movies, sexual acts are done so the viewers can see them. I'm thinking when someone goes down on a woman. Most times, in real life, you're not going to make sure you face is at the perfect angle to offer someone a better view.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

RandomDude said:


> Well, I'm dominant so I rely more on a partner's hotness than their overall talents.


just saying that i've learned sometimes hotness results in coldness


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Longtime Hubby said:


> just saying that i've learned sometimes hotness results in coldness


That was ok in my pre M days.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Longtime Hubby said:


> just saying that i've learned sometimes hotness results in coldness


That's ok, just find one warmer


----------



## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

RandomDude said:


> That's ok, just find one warmer


Dat's right


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sex-diseases-swingers-idUSTRE65M6NX20100624https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sex-diseases-swingers-idUSTRE65M6NX20100624
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Useful. Also be aware that _cheaters_ have a much higher STD rate than swingers, and cheaters are a _much_ larger percentage of relationships than swingers.

Many swingers get tested regularly, and/or have a small number of regular partners whose history is known so they're safe in-group. Not all of course, so as with any sexual encounter it's wise to find out what you can about their status and precautions. And usually swingers come in pairs, so there's twice the chance that one will show symptoms if infected and they will withdraw until resolved. In our group over a 10 year span we had dozens of partners, knew several hundred more to talk to, and only ever heard of an STD situation once - from a club in the next state. A lot of our partners were doctors and nurses, so they were probably more aware and careful than most. Random, unvetted hookups are the riskiest, especially with single people.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I don't want to side track into a gay discussion, but I will say this. Today if a gay guy hit on me I would just kindly turn it down. Back then most of the gay men were also some of the worst humans around too. I wasn't mature enough to separate the two. I made the association that gay men equaled the lowlife. I've since learn that they were actually lowlifes that happened to be gay too.
> 
> And you are right, there are a lot of things people do that are legal, but I would rather not be around that activity or the people that engage in it.


You want a good oblivious happyhusband story. My wife and I use to go to a bar a few times a week for a drink after work. There was a lot of financial firms and law firms right around the area so the place was packed with guys. I always got there about 20 minutes before her It was odd because after the first few times almost every time I was there someone would buy me a drink. I was like this bar is awesome everyone is buying strangers drinks. Took me 2 months before I realized it was a gay bar. Once we figured it out my wife was like I guess we should find a different bar for happy hour, I was like hell no then I'd have to pay for drinks. Kept going 2-3 times a week until we moved all the guys figured out I was straight before I figured out it was a gay bar but they kept buying me drinks. I think they respected the fact I was comfortable around a bunch of gay guys and just took the compliment when they hit on me.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> You want a good oblivious happyhusband story. My wife and I use to go to a bar a few times a week for a drink after work. There was a lot of financial firms and law firms right around the area so the place was packed with guys. I always got there about 20 minutes before her It was odd because after the first few times almost every time I was there someone would buy me a drink. I was like this bar is awesome everyone is buying strangers drinks. Took me 2 months before I realized it was a gay bar. Once we figured it out my wife was like I guess we should find a different bar for happy hour, I was like hell no then I'd have to pay for drinks. Kept going 2-3 times a week until we moved all the guys figured out I was straight before I figured out it was a gay bar but they kept buying me drinks. I think they respected the fact I was comfortable around a bunch of gay guys and just took the compliment when they hit on me.


that's a great story. I think it's pretty cool you and your wife still went there for drinks. ... We were in St. Louis in spring of 2020 - before all hell broke loose - walking around the neighborhood where had rented an Air BNB. Stopped in one bar, seemed nice. After a while, my wife insisted we leave. outside, i asked why. she said "it's a gay bar." My reply? "well, it seemed nice and beer price were good. We coulda stayed." Honestly, i was surprised she had us leave. I didn't feel uncomfortable. Glad you and wife still went there for happy hour. Cool story. And, yeah, that is a compliment that you were being hit on!!


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Useful. Also be aware that _cheaters_ have a much higher STD rate than swingers, and cheaters are a _much_ larger percentage of relationships than swingers.
> 
> Many swingers get tested regularly, and/or have a small number of regular partners whose history is known so they're safe in-group. Not all of course, so as with any sexual encounter it's wise to find out what you can about their status and precautions. And usually swingers come in pairs, so there's twice the chance that one will show symptoms if infected and they will withdraw until resolved. In our group over a 10 year span we had dozens of partners, knew several hundred more to talk to, and only ever heard of an STD situation once - from a club in the next state. A lot of our partners were doctors and nurses, so they were probably more aware and careful than most. Random, unvetted hookups are the riskiest, especially with single people.


I agree with much of this and this was my experience as well. 

I'll be honest, I'm surprised there isn't actually more STIs in the lifestyle. Now granted it's not like every person on the planet is going to call me up and tell me they tested positive. And it's not like I have any operatives down at the health department that sneak me intelligence on the numbers of STIs in the area. 

But I can say that in the almost 10 years of our involvement in the lifestyle, we never got a thing and nor did I ever hear of anyone else in our area getting anything. 

We always used safer sex practices and no one we were ever with ever hesitated to use safer sex practices or even acted like not using them was an option so for us it really wasn't a big deal. 

I don't know what the actual statistics are but my personal assumption is that the STI rate in the lifestyle community in a given area is either going to be somewhat similar to or a little less than that of the general population in that area. I do not believe it will be higher due to what @Married but Happy said above. In the lifestyle community you are generally talking about middle aged, educated, professional, married couples with good health insurance that as a general rule tend to follow safer sex practices at a higher rate than the general population. I would agree that the STI rate is likely significantly higher in the singles population. 

I'm not making a moral judgement towards singles per se, but rather as stated above, in a couple, one or the other is more likely to show signs or symptoms and they would be more likely to motivate each other to get it evaluated and treated sooner. 

Now all that being said, I'll go back to what I said earlier - sex carries risk. Period. Risks can be reduced and mitigated to a certain degree but never eliminated. If you want 100% assurance of no exposure to STI, remain celibate. 

If you want to remain reasonably certain, be monogamous and watch your partner 24/7. 

The more you get into nonmonogamy, the more your risk is going to increase.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

If you are a guy in the "lifestyle" you better be packing something big in your pants or be really good looking. Otherwise, you won't be having much fun. Maybe you are a cuckold and enjoy the idea of your wife being railed by a bunch of different dudes. I've seen a lot of the swinger types advertising on the net looking for single females and guys with huge penises.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Married but Happy said:


> Useful. Also be aware that _cheaters_ have a much higher STD rate than swingers, and cheaters are a _much_ larger percentage of relationships than swingers.
> 
> Many swingers get tested regularly, and/or have a small number of regular partners whose history is known so they're safe in-group. Not all of course, so as with any sexual encounter it's wise to find out what you can about their status and precautions. And usually swingers come in pairs, so there's twice the chance that one will show symptoms if infected and they will withdraw until resolved. In our group over a 10 year span we had dozens of partners, knew several hundred more to talk to, and only ever heard of an STD situation once - from a club in the next state. A lot of our partners were doctors and nurses, so they were probably more aware and careful than most. Random, unvetted hookups are the riskiest, especially with single people.


I'm not sure that being one step better than cheaters is something to be proud of and I'm not sure your statement is even correct. Especially if you got it from a source like that spam you posted previously. The article MM posted, said of 9,000 patients from a total of 3 different clinics 55% of all chlamydia and gonorrhea cases were among those that identified as swingers. 31% were gay men. That leaves only 14% for all other categories. Further it said 1 in 10 swingers had chlamydia and 1 in 20 had gonorrhea. This statistical data seems to contradict your anecdotal evidence. Somehow I doubt swingers in the US are that much better at protecting themselves than those in the Netherlands, but who knows.

Accord to that same article female swingers had a higher rate of chlamydia (18%) than prostitutes (<3%). So hookers have swingers and cheaters beat, lol.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Enigma32 said:


> If you are a guy in the "lifestyle" you better be packing something big in your pants or be really good looking. Otherwise, you won't be having much fun. Maybe you are a cuckold and enjoy the idea of your wife being railed by a bunch of different dudes. I've seen a lot of the swinger types advertising on the net looking for single females and guys with huge penises.


If you go by online profiles on adultfriendfinder most guys are retired underwear models and hung like horses and there are tons of bisexual single ladies who are former or current models. In reality most of the single guys are chubby guys with nubs and the bisexual single ladies are also chubby guys with nubs.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I'm not sure that being one step better than cheaters is something to be proud of and I'm not sure your statement is even correct. Especially if you got it from a source like that spam you posted previously. The article MM posted, said of 9,000 patients from a total of 3 different clinics 55% of all chlamydia and gonorrhea cases were among those that identified as swingers. 31% were gay men. That leaves only 14% for all other categories. Further it said 1 in 10 swingers had chlamydia and 1 in 20 had gonorrhea. This statistical data seems to contradict your anecdotal evidence. Somehow I doubt swingers in the US are that much better at protecting themselves than those in the Netherlands, but who knows.
> 
> Accord to that same article female swingers had a higher rate of chlamydia (18%) than prostitutes (<3%). So hookers have swingers and cheaters beat, lol.


So stick with the pros and avoid the hoes. I actually think my wife and I got away by luck. I kind of cringe at some of the situations we found ourselves in. Anytime we had a hook up that wasn't well vetted we always got tested after, came out with a clean bill of health.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> You want a good oblivious happyhusband story. My wife and I use to go to a bar a few times a week for a drink after work. There was a lot of financial firms and law firms right around the area so the place was packed with guys. I always got there about 20 minutes before her It was odd because after the first few times almost every time I was there someone would buy me a drink. I was like this bar is awesome everyone is buying strangers drinks. Took me 2 months before I realized it was a gay bar. Once we figured it out my wife was like I guess we should find a different bar for happy hour, I was like hell no then I'd have to pay for drinks. Kept going 2-3 times a week until we moved all the guys figured out I was straight before I figured out it was a gay bar but they kept buying me drinks. I think they respected the fact I was comfortable around a bunch of gay guys and just took the compliment when they hit on me.


Yeah, eventually I got smart and started using the fact I was getting hit on to my advantage. I was able to go into the bar and get served at age 17. Not my proudest moment, but I'll blame it on being a kid, lol.


----------



## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

Enigma32 said:


> If you are a guy in the "lifestyle" you better be packing something big in your pants or be really good looking. Otherwise, you won't be having much fun. Maybe you are a cuckold and enjoy the idea of your wife being railed by a bunch of different dudes. I've seen a lot of the swinger types advertising on the net looking for single females and guys with huge penises.


Or maybe be one of the estimated 10% of men who are multi orgasmic? 

Or castrate?  Having been castrate for 6 months, I can see how that might make sense.

Why Castrati Made Better Lovers


----------



## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

manwithnoname said:


> Your post (#70) made it seem like the men often are on the sidelines, with no mention of the wife.


From what I understand, a good portion, if not the majority of old shirts "swinging" was him watching other guys with his wife with him on the sidelines. Which is fine. I'm not saying that's wrong if that's your thing. But in both of these threads he seems to be leaving that detail out for some reason. Which ends up being somewhat misleading in both cases.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I have never experienced emotion free sex, so the idea is completely foreign to me. It seems like it would be a high level form of masturbation with no emotion. I really don't want to be used as a dildo and I don't want my wife to be some guys Fleshlight masturbator. Something just seems so wrong about that.
> 
> On the flip side, having any emotions involved may even be a worse situation. I don't want to direct those kind emotional feeling at someone other than my wife. Quite honestly I'm afraid. What if I start falling for someone else? I am a biological machine and have all the weaknesses that come along with that. I've never tested myself in that way or on that level. What if had sex with another woman, even with the consent and in the presence of my wife, and my will power couldn't over come my biology and I make a strong emotional bond with her? Maybe this is an unfounded fear, but it is there and I would rather not temp fate putting my very happy marriage at risk for some physical gratification. Especially when my wife already provides ample physical gratification and intimacy.
> 
> ...


This thread has inspired a lot of comments. What you are saying is an interesting concept. For me it is the difference between "F-ing" and "Making Love." To me making love is about emotional connection, about using sexually released hormones to bond with you partner during post orgasmic cuddling or aftercare. F-ing is about emotionless sex, but even emotionless sex releases lots of sex hormones that can induce cuddling and bonding.

At my current age, I much prefer emotional connection. Of course that is why I have never cheated on my wife.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

gaius said:


> From what I understand, a good portion, if not the majority of old shirts "swinging" was him watching other guys with his wife with him on the sidelines. Which is fine. I'm not saying that's wrong if that's your thing. But in both of these threads he seems to be leaving that detail out for some reason. Which ends up being somewhat misleading in both cases.


No idea where you got that but let's just say, nnnnooooooo. not even close LOL  

But to be fair, that stuff does go on in the world and there are people that are into that, it's not my thang but I don't point fingers.

As I said previously, each couple gets to decide what's their cup of tea. There are a lot of couples where just the girls dirty dance and tittie rub on each other to get the guys all riled up. A lot a looking for a woman to join them in a 3-way. A good number are looking couple swaps and there are some that are looking for Hot Wife/Cuckold type scenarios. And there's probably stuff out there that I haven't even heard of yet. 

To each couple their own. We were primarily into couple/couple and group sex but did have a number of FMF and a couple MFM 3-somes over the years.


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Sorry. That joke didn’t land.
> 
> I read the word “could” as in “famous last words”.
> 
> ...


hahaha


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Swinging is very dangerous.


----------



## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

MattMatt said:


> Swinging is very dangerous.


Dang, that wooden beam brained him.


----------



## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I can deal with a lot. 500lbs is beyond my limit.
> 
> that’s another thing I wouldn’t be able to handle. Not in the least. Another man kissing my wife passionately. Ugh. That to me is into the emotional connection area. I couldnt face that. If by some crazy way I could get past the physical part, I can’t also lose the emotional by seeing her kiss another man.
> 
> ...


Her kissing him passionately would be worse for me.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

@oldshirt

It seems you have always had a taste for other men's wives/women. I got to reading some of your old posts and you were a predator of many married women prior to getting married yourself. I suspect you will argue about the label of predator since those married women certainly had a choice in the matter, but your own description makes it clear you sought out married women, because they were "easier" and NSA. You didn't need to wine and dine them, just wham bam. You preyed on them, their desire or maybe their weakness. And you were completely unrepentant about it, even boastful. They met your primary goal of physical gratification.

You said it yourself in those threads that basically you did not have a personal boundary that told you not to hook up with other men's wives. It seems to me that lack of boundary carried over into your married/swinger life. You legitimized your penchant for married women with swinging. This pattern seems deeply ingrained in who you are. It is part of your character. It makes me wonder if this character trait is common in the swinger community. I am going to make the assumption that it is.

In your threads you also said that in an affair, the OM is likely in your social circle, maybe even a “friend”. Spend any time on TAM and we will all know that is true. It looks like @LATERILUS79 was right in saying he wouldn’t want to be your friend because he couldn’t trust you. I was on the fence, but no longer. I’m in full agreement. You can’t be trusted around another man’s wife. I’m sure you will say you changed, nope it is in your character. In spite of your background (or maybe because of it) you claimed you wouldn’t fully trust @LATERILUS79 around your wife if he knew she was a swinger. That is laughable now, insulting really. You have it all ass-backward, trust the proven non-monogamous guy, but not the man who has only been with his wife, has monogamy as a lifelong goal and has lived it for 20+ years. WTF?

I think your whole purpose for posting those old threads was to serve as a warning about wives possibly straying from their marriage. That, all are capable of it and we should be concerned about people just like you, the average Joe you would never suspect. Yet, you told him, no need to worry about you, the man that has slept with around a hundred other wives, you can be trusted. Are you kidding me? LOL You should have agreed with him based on your old posts, but that didn’t fit your narrative in this thread.

Your wife has at least some of that same character. You two hooked up while she was with another man, just not married. This brings me back to your previous thread about communication. You seemed almost incredulous that someone would be triggered by a spouse suggesting swinging or some other form of non-monogamy. That it seemed like our communication skills weren’t up to snuff because we wouldn’t consider talking about engaging in that kind of activity. I shared that I thought my past history and past conversations with my wife shaped why I felt that way. Just like me, you don’t have better communication skills with your wife. You were both just already comfortable with the topic of non-monogamy. It is who you both are. Leaving this out was deceptive, intentional or not. Starting that conversation between two people that already engaged in non-monogamy is going to be night and day different than starting it between two people that have not. Especially if they have no other or an extremely limited number of past sex partners.

You said a myth about swingers is they try to seduce you or your spouse into the lifestyle. Maybe, very big maybe, they don’t once they are in the swinging lifestyle, but how prevalent is it that these people were predators just like you prior to swinging? I bet there are a lot more swingers out there like you that had no boundaries and I can’t believe that those boundaries are now permanently up just because they have “legitimized” their behavior by swinging. I have to assume that given the right circumstances they would gladly bed someone else’s spouse as an affair partner. They are already way too comfortable with non-monogamy for me. If you don't want to get eaten, don't make friends with a wolf.

This makes me question what really drives the idea of “ethical” non-monogamy and swinging. Is it just a bunch of natural born cheaters with no respect for sex and marriage that decide to get together since they don’t have the will power to control themselves? How many of your fellow swingers were the POSOM/OW in an affair at one time too? I wonder how many marriages were violated by these swingers before they found someone to marry and go along with their behavior. I guess on the positive side it gets you all together so maybe you can stay out of the lives of couples attempting to stay true to their monogamous marriage.

Intentional or not I feel like you’ve tried to glorify swinging and ENM to some degree. At the very least you say it is a fact of life, it exists. On that I agree, but just because it exists and is perfectly legal doesn’t necessarily make it right or a good thing. You obviously think otherwise, or so you say. If you think swinging is just a type of normal sexual relationship to be accepted, why don’t you talk about it with your adult children? Don’t you want them to understand all forms of sexuality and relationships? Utilize the superior communication skills, no? I’ve had “the talk” with my kids when they were younger. Now that they are young adults I’ve also started sharing my views on relationships/marriage in more detail. Really, we share AND demonstrate our beliefs about marriage on a daily basis, because we strongly believe in monogamy and committed relationships. Why don’t you share your deeply held beliefs with them? Do you actually think it is wrong on some level, so you don’t want your kids thinking it is normal?

Last thing. Given all this ^^^^ you gave me a hard time about using promiscuous to describe the behavior. Really? LOL Turns out I was being gracious.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

So yeah.... what BigDaddy said. 

Wish I could write like that, but I'll leave it to the pros.

What I can say is this: You are wrong, OS. My wife may have the time, but she isn't the type (as you assume all married women are).


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @oldshirt
> 
> It seems you have always had a taste for other men's wives/women. I got to reading some of your old posts and you were a predator of many married women prior to getting married yourself. I suspect you will argue about the label of predator since those married women certainly had a choice in the matter, but your own description makes it clear you sought out married women, because they were "easier" and NSA. You didn't need to wine and dine them, just wham bam. You preyed on them, their desire or maybe their weakness. And you were completely unrepentant about it, even boastful. They met your primary goal of physical gratification.
> 
> ...


A great post. (Some of the things you posted are exactly why churches would and should challenge members who think that living that way is ok. Even asking them to leave if they weren't going to stop). 

Married couples who are faithful would be unwise to spend a lot of time with couples who aren't. Their beliefs and views on marriage are very different. Their boundaries are very different. 

We need to do what we can to protect our marriages. We need to be around others who will encourage us in our faithfulness and in the boundaries we keep.

You have clearly given this a lot of thought.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @oldshirt
> 
> It seems you have always had a taste for other men's wives/women. I got to reading some of your old posts and you were a predator of many married women prior to getting married yourself. I suspect you will argue about the label of predator since those married women certainly had a choice in the matter, but your own description makes it clear you sought out married women, because they were "easier" and NSA. You didn't need to wine and dine them, just wham bam. You preyed on them, their desire or maybe their weakness. And you were completely unrepentant about it, even boastful. They met your primary goal of physical gratification.
> 
> ...


Of course my prior experiences and observations have influenced my current perspectives, opinions and outlooks. That's what life is - a collection of experiences, observations and knowledge gained throughout life. 

My experiences have shaped my perspectives and wold views just as your experiences have shaped yours. 

From a morality perspective if you want to say that my history is immoral, that is your perogative. But that doesn't mean that my information is necessarily inaccurate. 

Here's why I have discussions like these on forums like this - I can see the delusions that many of you have (I don't necessarily mean you specifically, but you in the general sense) Your spouses went to church. they baked cookies for the Sunday choir and they held your hand and smiled and nodded if full agreement when you talked about had bad those slutty girls that smoked and drank and gave blowjobs to the quarterback and running backs after the winning homecoming game and made vows that you'd all foresake all others till death do you part. And you think she is from a different factory and different mould and different DNA than all the other women walking the earth.

..........and these are the women that stopped by house on their way home from work at night in my youth. 

..........and these are the women that I partied to the wee hours of the night with in my swinging days. 

I have lost something over the course of my life from when I was fresh-faced, scrawny little virgin boy growing up in tiny farming community. I've lost the illusion that there is US and Them and I've lost the illusion that there are good girls/boys and bad girls/boy. There are just people. There are just men. And there are just women. 

Am I going to hit on your wife? No, I don't have to. I don't need to look for trouble. If she gives me the nudge-nudge-wink-wink and says you're out of town, will I take her up on it?? That depends on million factors and moving parts. I can't make a promise either way.

What I can promise you though is if I don't take her up on it, Sven From Yoga or Kevin From Sales will. 

I am saying that you wife is a cheater and that she will or she won't cheat? No, not all. But I am saying that she is human and she is a biological female and creature of the earth. 

Whether she gets with Sven From Yoga will depend on a myriad of factors about you, a myriad of factors about your relationship, a myriad of factors about Sven, and a myriad of factors about her and her frame of mind at that moment and her moral compass and hormonal balance and physiology at that moment in time. 

What it won't depend on is whether she went to Sunday service that week or what factory or mould she came from. There isn't an us and them. 

And I can say the exact same about you. Just because you haven't today, doesn't mean that you won't next month, next year, 10 years from now, 20 years..... You don't truly know what will happen to you in the future or exactly how you will deal with it when it does. Am I saying that you are bad or immoral or anything? Not at all, I assume you are of very high character and ideals. But I recognise your humanity. 

As I said the other day, I am not a salesman for swinging. And I most certainly am not a salesman for adultery. My support of BS's are well documented in my posting history here. The things are talk about are not promote infidelity or promiscuity or immorality or whatever you want to label it - but help people open their eyes and see a different perspective rather than the wholesome, Disney perspective that we are all sold by religions and society. 99.99999% of sexuality is behind closed doors and not spoken. I have at least taken a peek into that dark corner some things naivette' can get one bit in the arse.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

You didn't answer a single question I asked in my post. BTW, the number of times I've gone to church could be counted on one hand, about the same for my wife.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> So yeah.... what BigDaddy said.
> 
> Wish I could write like that, but I'll leave it to the pros.
> 
> What I can say is this: You are wrong, OS. My wife may have the time, but she isn't the type (as you assume all married women are).





oldshirt said:


> Of course my prior experiences and observations have influenced my current perspectives, opinions and outlooks. That's what life is - a collection of experiences, observations and knowledge gained throughout life.
> 
> My experiences have shaped my perspectives and wold views just as your experiences have shaped yours.
> 
> ...


Excellent post. Well written. Pulls no punches. It’s so true. We never know the future. Never. Good job.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Here's why I have discussions like these on forums like this - I can see the delusions that many of you have (I don't necessarily mean you specifically, but you in the general sense) Your spouses went to church. they baked cookies for the Sunday choir and they held your hand and smiled and nodded if full agreement when you talked about had bad those slutty girls that smoked and drank and gave blowjobs to the quarterback and running backs after the winning homecoming game and made vows that you'd all foresake all others till death do you part. And you think she is from a different factory and different mould and different DNA than all the other women walking the earth.


I know the type you speak of. They were the ones that put up a facade of who they REALLY were (very similar to what I pick up from you). I knew these women growing up. Put on a smile. Act pious. Go to church on sunday. Get absolved, go back out in the world, cheat with someone like you, then rinse and repeat. Just because some of us grow up in those communities doesn't mean we are stupid and don't see people for who they really are. I was able to figure you out. Something smelled "off". Something that I didn't get whatsoever from every other non-monogamous person that posted. Only got the off-putting feeling from you. That's it. It made perfect sense once I read your guide to being an absolutely terrible human being. 


I can assure you my wife doesn't want to give you anal, doesn't want a facial from you, and... how did you put it? Oh yes, I know for a fact my wife doesn't want to be filled up by your sperm. I'm going to say that I'm 100% confident of that and I'd say I'm better than average at taking care of my business myself. 

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt that all women are like this if they meet someone like yourself in the right circumstances. And I agree with Bigdaddy. You gave me the impression right away that not only would you attempt the "long con" to convince other couples to swing, if that didn't work, you have more than enough history to say you'd probably just go for the affair. Even if for some crazy reason my wife wanted to do such terrible things.... she wouldn't do it because she knows me and she knows I would be swift with my decision and she would be losing A LOT. Lastly, if she just couldn't take it and needed to "spread her wings", I'm fairly certain she could come to me and we could separate amicably. No need to go down your dark path. There's some high level of communication for you. Something my wife and I have discussed many times. Don't be evil to each other. If we need to separate, then we need to separate.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> And I can say the exact same about you. Just because you haven't today, doesn't mean that you won't next month, next year, 10 years from now, 20 years..... You don't truly know what will happen to you in the future or exactly how you will deal with it when it does. Am I saying that you are bad or immoral or anything? Not at all, I assume you are of very high character and ideals. But I recognise your humanity.


I can't speak for others, but I can speak for myself. 

I can speak to my future. I know I won't cheat because I have literally ran away from it on multiple occasions. I have run away from a woman standing naked directly in front of me! So no, I don't think you can speak for everyone and just assume all humans will give into their base desires if an opportunity presents itself.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Of course my prior experiences and observations have influenced my current perspectives, opinions and outlooks. That's what life is - a collection of experiences, observations and knowledge gained throughout life.
> 
> My experiences have shaped my perspectives and wold views just as your experiences have shaped yours.
> 
> From a morality perspective if you want to say that my history is immoral, that is your perogative. But that doesn't mean that my information is necessarily inaccurate.


You didn't think it was important to the discussion to mention something about your past that is so relevant to your views and the validity of statements you are making?



oldshirt said:


> Am I going to hit on your wife? No, I don't have to. I don't need to look for trouble. If she gives me the nudge-nudge-wink-wink and says you're out of town, will I take her up on it?? That depends on million factors and moving parts. I can't make a promise either way.
> 
> What I can promise you though is if I don't take her up on it, Sven From Yoga or Kevin From Sales will.


This is going to be extreme, but that attitude sounds like, if I don't rape her some other rapist will. I'm being extreme to make a point. If none of the predators, or maybe scavengers is a better term, are out there with no regard to the sanctity of other's marriage I really think we would be better off. Just because someone else does something doesn't mean you should. Didn't your mother every teach you not to jump off a bridge just because your friends did it?



oldshirt said:


> I am saying that you wife is a cheater and that she will or she won't cheat? No, not all. But I am saying that she is human and she is a biological female and creature of the earth.
> 
> Whether she gets with Sven From Yoga will depend on a myriad of factors about you, a myriad of factors about your relationship, a myriad of factors about Sven, and a myriad of factors about her and her frame of mind at that moment and her moral compass and hormonal balance and physiology at that moment in time.
> 
> ...


I am in complete agreement that we are all stuck dealing with our biological limitations and sometimes everything aligns just perfectly so that something happens that you thought you would never do. Never say never. I am completely aware that my wife could cheat and so could I.

That is where risk mitigation comes in. How many times have we heard cheating stories where those we associate with play a major factor in the cheating? Or people allow themselves to be a position ripe for something bad to happen. Or my wife hangs out with her friend that turns out to be an ex-swinger and slowly starts letting on about how "great" it is slip into her mind. Easy solution, don't associate with those people. Also, communicate. We regularly reiterate our feelings and beliefs. We imprint them on our children so they hopefully grow up with the same feeling and beliefs.

Bottom line, just don't get yourself into these positions and if you find yourself there, get out! Go to your wife or husband and give them a big hug and kiss and tell them how much you love them.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Of course we are all human beings but many of us will not go after married people, or be swingers, or cheat on our spouses. It's not all about our humanity or that we could act that way given certain circumstances, it's about what is important to us. What we value. Our beliefs about marriages and faithfulness. Our boundaries, our knowledge of what the circumstances would be if we acted that way. What the consequences could be. 

You may have slept with lots of married women but there are countless married women who would not act that way. Same with men, many men would never cheat no matter what you may think.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I can't speak for others, but I can speak for myself.
> 
> I can speak to my future. I know I won't cheat because I have literally ran away from it on multiple occasions. I have run away from a woman standing naked directly in front of me! So no, I don't think you can speak for everyone and just assume all humans will give into their base desires if an opportunity presents itself.


As humans we can make use of self control and strength to avoid such situations. To use wisdom and set boundaries to avoid dangers with the opposite sex if we want to. 

We have to want to of course.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

@oldshirt You really do make it sound like we are just animals with no choice. When was the last time someone said to a cheater here that, oh it was just your biology? It is ALWAYS their choice. They can just as easily choose not to cheat.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> As humans we can make use of self control and strength to avoid such situations. To use wisdom and set boundaries to avoid dangers with the opposite sex if we want to.
> 
> *We have to want to of course.*


That is the key. I want to stay true to my wife and marriage. I will surround myself with people that want the same thing and I will avoid those that show that is not what they want. Problem is, those people hide themselves. They know they are wrong, so they stick to the shadows.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I can't speak for others, but I can speak for myself.
> 
> I can speak to my future. I know I won't cheat because I have literally ran away from it on multiple occasions. I have run away from a woman standing naked directly in front of me! So no, I don't think you can speak for everyone and just assume all humans will give into their base desires if an opportunity presents itself.


Wait. A naked woman and you ran? We’re you single or married?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @oldshirt You really do make it sound like we are just animals with no choice. When was the last time someone said to a cheater here that, oh it was just your biology? It is ALWAYS their choice. They can just as easily choose not to cheat.


Perhaps @oldshirt is highlighting it's beneficial to be aware that the perfect storm is a possibility to all, and awareness is important. He's his own man, so I can't say for sure. That's just one possible take away.

That's all from me on this before any rock throwing. 🙄 🤣🤣🤣


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Wait. A naked woman and you ran? We’re you single or married?


I've done it when I was single but found out she wasn't!😳


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Wait. A naked woman and you ran? We’re you single or married?


I told the story in the previous thread where we all discussed communication. 

Yes. I did. I was 4 months into dating my wife. I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror if I hurt someone else in such a terrible way. I wouldn't be able to look my children in the face today if I knew that in my past I did such an awful thing to another human being, let alone someone that I love. I was already in love with my wife by that time and was fairly certain we would get married. No way was I going to throw that away for one sex filled night. Then again, it could always be more than one night I guess. I could turn into a piece of trash and just lie.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> This makes me question what really drives the idea of “ethical” non-monogamy and swinging. Is it just a bunch of natural born cheaters with no respect for sex and marriage that decide to get together since they don’t have the will power to control themselves? How many of your fellow swingers were the POSOM/OW in an affair at one time too? I wonder how many marriages were violated by these swingers before they found someone to marry and go along with their behavior. I guess on the positive side it gets you all together so maybe you can stay out of the lives of couples attempting to stay true to their monogamous marriage.


Yah I think making the assumption that all the OMs and OWs all became swingers is a far stretch. Most of the people I know were regular traditionally monogamous couples prior to coming into the lifestyle. I do know a few who lived the life of non-monogamy pretty much their whole lives two couples I can think of specifically are no longer together so perhaps they were simply non commitment as well. 

For me I have been with my wife since I was 15. We got into the lifestyle in our mid thirties. So in the roughly 20 years prior I never even considered cheating. In college my apartment was a major party spot there was more than one occasion that I had girls climb into bed with me and I politely sent them on their way. Now that being said in my early twenties if I had been single and a married women propositioned me would I have turned her down? Probably not, because I wouldn't have known any better. What I mean by that is for a long time I was fairly ignorant and thought if a woman was cheating she must have a loser husband who is ignoring her. In honesty I partially held that view for a long time and probably wasn't fully convinced that wasn't the case until I read all the stories of infidelity here on TAM. There might even be a post from me from way back when I first joined here that is tainted by that way of thinking. 

Are there people in the community that would happily get it on with a married person without regard for their spouses knowledge and approval? Of course. But there are far more non swingers (by sheer numbers) who would as well. 

And I'll say it again, you already associate and are probably friends with some of us. Keep your head on a swivel they're just biding their time waiting to see you wife with a frown so they can turn it upside down, like their pineapple anklet. 

Last sentence is a joke just to be clear.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I told the story in the previous thread where we all discussed communication.
> 
> Yes. I did. I was 4 months into dating my wife. I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror if I hurt someone else in such a terrible way. I wouldn't be able to look my children in the face today if I knew that in my past I did such an awful thing to another human being, let alone someone that I love. I was already in love with my wife by that time and was fairly certain we would get married. No way was I going to throw that away for one sex filled night. Then again, it could always be more than one night I guess. I could turn into a piece of trash and just lie.


Or, devil’s advocate, what if it turned out the naked woman was “the one”? Four months into dating someone seems kinda early to know, looking back to my single days. My rule? Give it a year. See how it is.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Perhaps @oldshirt is highlighting it's beneficial to be aware that the perfect storm is a possibility to all, and awareness is important. He's his own man, so I can't say for sure. That's just one possible take away.
> 
> That's all from me on this before any rock throwing. 🙄 🤣🤣🤣


I couldn't agree more!

Which is exactly why I would NOT want to be near or be friends with OS and prefer to be around people who don't immediately jump on top of an opportunity to cheat just because someone is in a vulnerable position. He just said in this thread that TODAY if a married woman gave him the nudge, he may not turn it down. So yeah.... I think it is beneficial to keep yourself away from "perfect storm" situations.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I've done it when I was single but found out she wasn't!😳


Does women who are separated and divorcing count? When in college, I may have a couple technicals there with the staff.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Perhaps @oldshirt is highlighting it's beneficial to be aware that the perfect storm is a possibility to all, and awareness is important. He's his own man, so I can't say for sure. That's just one possible take away.
> 
> That's all from me on this before any rock throwing. 🙄 🤣🤣🤣


I was trying to think about how to post about this.

I don't think he communicates with clarity, which happens on a site where you are typing.

I'm pretty sure he is just relating his experiences and I know they happen because I've had a lot of strange situations as well but he sometimes comes off as inferring that those who are posting don't maybe know their own wives better than him.

I read carefully and I don't think he is saying that but it does come off a little spicy.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I was trying to think about how to post about this.
> 
> I don't think he communicates with clarity, which happens on a site where you are typing.
> 
> ...


The same. I think there's a lot of information there, and no intent to cause harm or cry havoc.


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Here's why I have discussions like these on forums like this - I can see the delusions that many of you have (I don't necessarily mean you specifically, but you in the general sense) Your spouses went to church. they baked cookies for the Sunday choir and they held your hand and smiled and nodded if full agreement when you talked about had bad those slutty girls that smoked and drank and gave blowjobs to the quarterback and running backs after the winning homecoming game and made vows that you'd all foresake all others till death do you part. And you think she is from a different factory and different mould and different DNA than all the other women walking the earth.
> 
> ..........and these are the women that stopped by house on their way home from work at night in my youth.
> 
> ...


This is Hollywood fodder, 'Revenge of the Nerds;' it's like you googled what cool kids do and made it your story. When you were a teenager, this was NOT happening. What you are describing is today's Gossip Girl episode. 

There are many people who are and always have been quite contentedly monogamous. Not only naturally and easily monogamous but never had some secret past of promiscuity. 
Your ideas about other peoples sexual proclivities are a mere projection of your own fantasies; not based in reality.
The relationship you have and the things you have done with your wife are yours alone. 
Kindly take ownership for your own travels and leave your generalizations out.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I know the type you speak of. They were the ones that put up a facade of who they REALLY were (very similar to what I pick up from you). I knew these women growing up. Put on a smile. Act pious. Go to church on sunday. Get absolved, go back out in the world, cheat with someone like you, then rinse and repeat. Just because some of us grow up in those communities doesn't mean we are stupid and don't see people for who they really are. I was able to figure you out. Something smelled "off". Something that I didn't get whatsoever from every other non-monogamous person that posted. Only got the off-putting feeling from you. That's it. It made perfect sense once I read your guide to being an absolutely terrible human being.
> 
> 
> I can assure you my wife doesn't want to give you anal, doesn't want a facial from you, and... how did you put it? Oh yes, I know for a fact my wife doesn't want to be filled up by your sperm. I'm going to say that I'm 100% confident of that and I'd say I'm better than average at taking care of my business myself.
> ...


I hope you're right and I hope you live long, happy, fulfilled lives together in peace and contentment. 

I know i can talk talk all tough behind the anonymity of a keyboard and I sound like a snake in the grass, but underneath it all I really am a big softy and a big romantic and think the world would be a much better place if everyone could find their special someone and live happily ever after. I want people to find love and contentment. 

But the catch is everyone that's ever had their life go off the rails has said the exact same thing you just said. 

I'm not saying your life will go off the rails. I'm saying everyone who's life did, has thought and said the exact thing. 

Sure, you're wife may not find me the least bit attractive and you were to show her my posts she would probably agree with you that I am bad. 

But none of this is about me. It's about human nature. I may not have one single trait or characteristic that she finds appealing or attractive.......... But Ron the Kitchen Remodel Contractor might check 'em all. 

I have no question that you are a good, solid man, husband, father, lover, provider - all of that. There are women across the the entire world that would slit your wife's throat and toss her weighted body over bridge to step into her place. 

But can you guarantee that you will make her feel validated and fulfilled and attracted and connected and never make her angry or feel neglected or negated 24/7 for the next 40 years? 

Can you guarantee that she will never get angry or feel frustrated with you when she happens to be ovulating and she calls up her GFs to go burn off some steam and complain about their husbands uptown and after a drink or two too many in walks Ron that just remodeled your kitchen and she can still remember how his tool belt accentuated his V-taper from his shoulders to his waist and how his arms and shoulders rippled when he busted out the center island with the sledgehammer. 
Now don't waste your keystrokes saying you haven't remodeled your kitchen, it was a conceptual scenario, but that's how those fuses can be lit. 

A person can go 30 years before all those stars line up. My point to this and my point to that series of threads I made years ago is there is no immunity. There is no silver bullet or Sword of Gigdeon. 

Now most people don't cheat. For most people those stars never line up. Most manage to muddle through and things just work out. 

But never say never and never assume that you are somehow immune or that it can't happen to you because you have it so good.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Yah I think making the assumption that all the OMs and OWs all became swingers is a far stretch. Most of the people I know were regular traditionally monogamous couples prior to coming into the lifestyle. I do know a few who lived the life of non-monogamy pretty much their whole lives two couples I can think of specifically are no longer together so perhaps they were simply non commitment as well.
> 
> For me I have been with my wife since I was 15. We got into the lifestyle in our mid thirties. So in the roughly 20 years prior I never even considered cheating. In college my apartment was a major party spot there was more than one occasion that I had girls climb into bed with me and I politely sent them on their way. Now that being said in my early twenties if I had been single and a married women propositioned me would I have turned her down? Probably not, because I wouldn't have known any better. What I mean by that is for a long time I was fairly ignorant and thought if a woman was cheating she must have a loser husband who is ignoring her. In honesty I partially held that view for a long time and probably wasn't fully convinced that wasn't the case until I read all the stories of infidelity here on TAM. There might even be a post from me from way back when I first joined here that is tainted by that way of thinking.
> 
> ...


happyhusband.... I've enjoyed all of your candid, straight forward responses. 

Like I said in a previous post, you speak in a much different way than OS. I don't get the "discomfort" that something is being hidden or something is off. You don't give this immediate impression that you'll stab me in the back the moment I turn away. 

It was you, maquiscat, and happy but married (I think that is his name) that made swinging sound like it can be done in an ethical and moral way. Still definitely not for me, but you guys made it sound plausible and reasonable for those that can handle it.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I told the story in the previous thread where we all discussed communication.
> 
> Yes. I did. I was 4 months into dating my wife. I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror if I hurt someone else in such a terrible way. I wouldn't be able to look my children in the face today if I knew that in my past I did such an awful thing to another human being, let alone someone that I love. I was already in love with my wife by that time and was fairly certain we would get married. No way was I going to throw that away for one sex filled night. Then again, it could always be more than one night I guess. I could turn into a piece of trash and just lie.


As Mr D says, it's just not worth it.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Does women who are separated and divorcing count? When in college, I may have a couple technicals there with the staff.


This coworker aggressively pursued me and persuaded me to go to her house after work and knock her socks off. After getting there, having her face in my lap and then her going into the restroom to get naked and ready, I saw a picture of her with her husband.

I told her to take a shower first and she complied. While she was in there, I left.

She was pissed the next day and I told her I don't play with women who weren't single.

She grabbed my unit right at work and said she was still going to keep doing it as much as she wanted.

On another topic, that was one of many sexual assaults and harassments (female to male) that went unreported.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

harperlee said:


> This is Hollywood fodder, 'Revenge of the Nerds;' it's like you googled what cool kids do and made it your story. When you were a teenager, this was NOT happening. What you are describing is today's Gossip Girl episode.
> 
> There are many people who are and always have been quite contentedly monogamous. Not only naturally and easily monogamous but never had some secret past of promiscuity.
> Your ideas about other peoples sexual proclivities are a mere projection of your own fantasies; not based in reality.
> ...


The reality is the info shared isn't a projection. The lifestyle is a real part of society. I'm not for it but I respect their right to live their lives as they believe unless crossing into my highway.

I'm not lgbtqwxgyt etc either, but each to their own.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Wait. A naked woman and you ran? We’re you single or married?


Confession time. 

When I was 17, my wife, then girl friend, and I broke up. It only lasted about a week and we had been together about 18 months at that point. A female friend of mine got wind and apparently had the hots for me. At a party, before I fully realized what was going on she got me into a bathroom and took off her top. Quite honestly, they were some of the nicest and largest breasts I've ever witnessed. She kissed me and I reciprocated. She started to unbutton my jeans and suddenly I'm like WTF am I doing? I got the hell out of there. One of my buddies did her that night. My wife knows all this BTW. The lesson learned there is if my 17 yo, broken up relationship, testosterone fueled teenage self could extricate himself from that kind of situation I have no doubt it won't be an issue for me today or in the future. It can be done even under the most extreme circumstances. Less than a week after that incident we were back together, 6 months later we were engaged and 6 months after that we were married. 

That was 32 years ago and I am so thankful I had the value of loyalty and faithfulness instilled in me by my parents to overcome that animalistic urge. Even in a moment of weakness where I allowed myself to get into a bad spot I was able to control myself. If I hadn't, I seriously doubt she would have forgiven me and we wouldn't be married today. I actually think that night was the turning point where I started to come to the conclusion that this was the one for me for life.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I hope you're right and I hope you live long, happy, fulfilled lives together in peace and contentment.
> 
> I know i can talk talk all tough behind the anonymity of a keyboard and I sound like a snake in the grass, but underneath it all I really am a big softy and a big romantic and think the world would be a much better place if everyone could find their special someone and live happily ever after. I want people to find love and contentment.
> 
> ...


That's just it.

The stars have lined up. For BOTH my wife and I. Amazingly enough, we didn't just give into it. You seem to think that just because the stars align with a perfect opportunity, everyone on this planet will do it. 

Again, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. There are plenty of times in my life that my wife could have cheated and I would have no idea. She could easily take it to the grave if she wants. She also knows that if for some reason I ever find out, there will be no discussion. She'll know I found out when the process server shows up at our door with divorce papers. She won't even need to ask why I'm divorcing. She'll think, "Well, he found the evidence. damn.". 

And how do I know this? Because my life has gone off the rails PLENTY of times. Plenty. Living in destitute conditions. Coming close to losing our place to live. Running out of food because we've run out of money. 

So, let's say that I definitely can't give a 100% guarantee that my wife won't cheat some day. Fair enough (although she doesn't do girls nights out. She doesn't go to bars to put herself into vulnerable positions). 

I can say with 100% certainty. I've turned it down every single time the opportunity has come up. I've also turned it down when I've been depressed because my life has come off the rails. Yes, I know me and I know this something I wouldn't do. The only way I would remotely agree with you is if I haven't had hardships and I haven't really had an opportunity. Well, that isn't real life. Those things have happened and I've succeeded.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I hope you're right and I hope you live long, happy, fulfilled lives together in peace and contentment.
> 
> I know i can talk talk all tough behind the anonymity of a keyboard and I sound like a snake in the grass, but underneath it all I really am a big softy and a big romantic and think the world would be a much better place if everyone could find their special someone and live happily ever after. I want people to find love and contentment.
> 
> ...


It's not about stars lining up it's about values and boundaries. It's about knowing that having sex outside if marriage is wrong period, no matter what the circumstances. No matter if the marriage is not happy. No matter if things are a struggle. 
If the marriage is going through a bad patch.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @oldshirt You really do make it sound like we are just animals with no choice. When was the last time someone said to a cheater here that, oh it was just your biology? It is ALWAYS their choice. They can just as easily choose not to cheat.


I think his point is no one is immune. And you have no idea where life might lead you in 5,10 or 20 years. I think if you asked all the WSs on TAM if years prior to their infidelity they would have said "I will never cheat" most would say yes. Getting too comfortable and complacent can be very dangerous for a relationship also.


----------



## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I hope you're right and I hope you live long, happy, fulfilled lives together in peace and contentment.
> 
> I know i can talk talk all tough behind the anonymity of a keyboard and I sound like a snake in the grass, but underneath it all I really am a big softy and a big romantic and think the world would be a much better place if everyone could find their special someone and live happily ever after. I want people to find love and contentment.
> 
> ...


Game. Set. Match.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> The reality is the info shared isn't a projection. The lifestyle is a real part of society. I'm not for it but I respect their right to live their lives as they believe unless crossing into my highway.
> 
> I'm not lgbtqwxgyt etc, but each to their own.


I've never been in the lifestyle but I've had many opportunities with married women or women with significant others, even women married to other women!


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Perhaps @oldshirt is highlighting it's beneficial to be aware that the perfect storm is a possibility to all, and awareness is important.


Actually yes, that is a good way to put it. Thank you.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I think his point is no one is immune. And you have no idea where life might lead you in 5,10 or 20 years. I think if you asked all the WSs on TAM if years prior to their infidelity they would have said "I will never cheat" most would say yes. Getting too comfortable and complacent can be very dangerous for a relationship also.


I'm definitely an advocate for being forewarned and forearmed.

Knowing we are all human and susceptible if we don't guard ourselves is invaluable.


----------



## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> The reality is the info shared isn't a projection. The lifestyle is a real part of society. I'm not for it but I respect their right to live their lives as they believe unless crossing into my highway.
> 
> I'm not lgbtqwxgyt etc, but each to their own.


It isn't the 'lifestyle' that I would judge, because I'm not the judge. It's the lack of authenticity in oldshirt's posts that irk me.
I'll go back to quiet, I'm not much for posting and understand I am interrupting a flow.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

harperlee said:


> It isn't the 'lifestyle' that I would judge, because I'm not the judge. It's the lack of authenticity in oldshirt's posts that irk me.
> I'll go back to quiet, I'm not much for posting and understand I am interrupting a flow.


Glad to have you join, that's the big picture 👍.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Game. Set. Match.


Only if you assume that everyone on this planet will give into temptation just because the opportunity presents itself.

If that is the case, then yes. OS's comment would be game, set, match.

I would disagree.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

harperlee said:


> This is Hollywood fodder, 'Revenge of the Nerds;' it's like you googled what cool kids do and made it your story. When you were a teenager, this was NOT happening. What you are describing is today's Gossip Girl episode.
> 
> There are many people who are and always have been quite contentedly monogamous. Not only naturally and easily monogamous but never had some secret past of promiscuity.
> Your ideas about other peoples sexual proclivities are a mere projection of your own fantasies; not based in reality.
> ...


I agree that his statements can't be broad brush but they are fairly regular occurrences.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I'm definitely an advocate for being forewarned and forearmed.
> 
> Knowing we are all human and susceptible if we don't guard ourselves is invaluable.


Yes and that's why it's so important to have wise boundaries with the opposite sex.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Only if you assume that everyone on this planet will give into temptation just because the opportunity presents itself.
> 
> If that is the case, then yes. OS's comment would be game, set, match.
> 
> I would disagree.


Absolutely, me too.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Confession time.
> 
> When I was 17, my wife, then girl friend, and I broke up. It only lasted about a week and we had been together about 18 months at that point. A female friend of mine got wind and apparently had the hots for me. At a party, before I fully realized what was going on she got me into a bathroom and took off her top. Quite honestly, they were some of the nicest and largest breasts I've ever witnessed. She kissed me and I reciprocated. She started to unbutton my jeans and suddenly I'm like WTF am I doing? I got the hell out of there. One of my buddies did her that night. My wife knows all this BTW. The lesson learned there is if my 17 yo, broken up relationship, testosterone fueled teenage self could extricate himself from that kind of situation I have no doubt it won't be an issue for me today or in the future. It can be done even under the most extreme circumstances. Less than a week after that incident we were back together, 6 months later we were engaged and 6 months after that we were married.
> 
> That was 32 years ago and I am so thankful I had the value of loyalty and faithfulness instilled in me by my parents to overcome that animalistic urge. Even in a moment of weakness where I allowed myself to get into a bad spot I was able to control myself. If I hadn't, I seriously doubt she would have forgiven me and we wouldn't be married today. I actually think that night was the turning point where I started to come to the conclusion that this was the one for me for life.


Cool story!


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Confession time.
> 
> When I was 17, my wife, then girl friend, and I broke up. It only lasted about a week and we had been together about 18 months at that point. A female friend of mine got wind and apparently had the hots for me. At a party, before I fully realized what was going on she got me into a bathroom and took off her top. Quite honestly, they were some of the nicest and largest breasts I've ever witnessed. She kissed me and I reciprocated. She started to unbutton my jeans and suddenly I'm like WTF am I doing? I got the hell out of there. One of my buddies did her that night. My wife knows all this BTW. The lesson learned there is if my 17 yo, broken up relationship, testosterone fueled teenage self could extricate himself from that kind of situation I have no doubt it won't be an issue for me today or in the future. It can be done even under the most extreme circumstances. Less than a week after that incident we were back together, 6 months later we were engaged and 6 months after that we were married.
> 
> That was 32 years ago and I am so thankful I had the value of loyalty and faithfulness instilled in me by my parents to overcome that animalistic urge. Even in a moment of weakness where I allowed myself to get into a bad spot I was able to control myself. If I hadn't, I seriously doubt she would have forgiven me and we wouldn't be married today. I actually think that night was the turning point where I started to come to the conclusion that this was the one for me for life.


My take away, you did the right thing.
And, those were indeed nice breasts. 🙄🙂🙂


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> That's just it.
> 
> The stars have lined up. For BOTH my wife and I. Amazingly enough, we didn't just give into it. You seem to think that just because the stars align with a perfect opportunity, everyone on this planet will do it.
> 
> ...



Please understand that I am not arguing with you on what will or will not happen. I do not have a chrystal ball anymore than you do. 

I am saying this is how some of these things can occur. 

Whether it happens with you or your wife at all, I have no clue. I most sincerely hope it does not.

My caveat to not just you, but to everyone is don't assume that it can't happen, or that it won't happen just because you are good, nice people that have a good life today.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I think his point is no one is immune. And you have no idea where life might lead you in 5,10 or 20 years. I think if you asked all the WSs on TAM if years prior to their infidelity they would have said "I will never cheat" most would say yes. Getting too comfortable and complacent can be very dangerous for a relationship also.


yes.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Only if you assume that everyone on this planet will give into temptation just because the opportunity presents itself.
> 
> If that is the case, then yes. OS's comment would be game, set, match.
> 
> I would disagree.


I'm traveling right now without the Mrs. I'm at a Longhorn steakhouse and I could have had a good chance with a very nice looking blonde immediately upon opening the door to the restaurant and I might have been able to get something going with the attractive brunette just down the bar from me who appears to be traveling as well.

Regular occurrences and no infidelity in over 26 years of marriage.

I would agree, with you.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Yah I think making the assumption that all the OMs and OWs all became swingers is a far stretch. Most of the people I know were regular traditionally monogamous couples prior to coming into the lifestyle. I do know a few who lived the life of non-monogamy pretty much their whole lives two couples I can think of specifically are no longer together so perhaps they were simply non commitment as well.
> 
> For me I have been with my wife since I was 15. We got into the lifestyle in our mid thirties. So in the roughly 20 years prior I never even considered cheating. In college my apartment was a major party spot there was more than one occasion that I had girls climb into bed with me and I politely sent them on their way. Now that being said in my early twenties if I had been single and a married women propositioned me would I have turned her down? Probably not, because I wouldn't have known any better. What I mean by that is for a long time I was fairly ignorant and thought if a woman was cheating she must have a loser husband who is ignoring her. In honesty I partially held that view for a long time and probably wasn't fully convinced that wasn't the case until I read all the stories of infidelity here on TAM. There might even be a post from me from way back when I first joined here that is tainted by that way of thinking.
> 
> ...


A good joke at that, lol. 

I guess I was being a bit over dramatic about OM/OW -> swinger. But I would still assume they are much more open to sex with a married person given there obvious stance on monogamy. Maybe they will respect my marriage, maybe not. Obviously the same can be said for someone that isn't a swinger. The problem I have is OS has a long track record of all flavors of non-monogamy, including being the OM for many WW. He can't be the only one. I will give credit for him doing penance by help BS here. 

I get what you are saying about your 20 something self. I am looking at things through a much different lens, so I can't say I would have felt the same under different circumstance. Those other circumstance don't exist though. My wife and I have called out cheaters over the years, in our early to mid twenties. She worked at a den of cheaters. I'm glad she got out of there, but after she outed one affair I don't think any guy there would touch her with a 10 foot pole. Her stance on cheating was crystal clear.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Or, devil’s advocate, what if it turned out the naked woman was “the one”? Four months into dating someone seems kinda early to know, looking back to my single days. My rule? Give it a year. See how it is.


To be fair, I did date my wife for 5.5 years before we got married!

I'll put it this way: If my wife wasn't the one for me, I could have broken up with her and found someone else. Why hurt her instead for selfish reasons? I have no problems with people playing the dating game. I have no issues with people wanting to sleep with whomever they want, but my wife is a human being first. Even if I didn't want to be with her anymore, I would just break up and go to "nekkid woman standing in front of me". If you just gotta tap that, why not give your significant other the heads up that you don't want to be together any more?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Holy ****!! That brunette is hawt!!!! I'm getting out of here!!!!


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Please understand that I am not arguing with you on what will or will not happen. I do not have a chrystal ball anymore than you do.
> 
> I am saying this is how some of these things can occur.
> 
> ...


This is what I'm talking about.

It feels "off".

You either say or strongly imply that "x" is the way that it is and it will happen.

Then you'll say, oh no, I didn't mean that. I mean it is one of multiple possibilities.


----------



## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> Neither do I and I was very active in that lifestyle for around 10 years.
> 
> Maybe someone else can answer that.


Not going to be me. While I swing, it is parallel to being poly and in BDSM, so I never got very deep in swinger lore. Should be interesting to find out though.

Amazing response to this thread in only two days!

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Holy ****!! That brunette is hawt!!!! I'm getting out of here!!!!


Aw c'mon, I believe you'll hold out!!! 🙄🤣🤣🤣.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

maquiscat said:


> Not going to be me. While I swing, it is parallel to being poly and in BDSM, so I never got very deep in swinger lore. Should be interesting to find out though.
> 
> Amazing response to this thread in only two days!
> 
> Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


Have you read the responses though? VERY FEW are positive, open-minded, or generous.

I almost called you...Lol!!!!


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Please understand that I am not arguing with you on what will or will not happen. I do not have a chrystal ball anymore than you do.
> 
> I am saying this is how some of these things can occur.
> 
> ...


I don't see it's about having a nice life. Lots of people have difficult times but if the determination to stay faithful is there then it won't make any difference. 
Mr D had a pretty unhappy first marriage of 23 years, was made redundant 3 times, had to do jobs he hated. If you have those foundational values then they will stay regardless of what life brings.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @oldshirt You really do make it sound like we are just animals with no choice. When was the last time someone said to a cheater here that, oh it was just your biology? It is ALWAYS their choice. They can just as easily choose not to cheat.


Posts were coming so fast and furious I'm trying to get caught up.

No we are not beasts in the field that actual purely on instinct and physiological stimuli. We are conscious beings that can make conscious decisions and choices.

But we are still creatures of the earth and we can't deny that our biology can influence those decisions and they are factors in the choices we make. 

We are not slaves to our biology but nor are we immune from their influence.


----------



## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> To be fair, I did date my wife for 5.5 years before we got married!
> 
> I'll put it this way: If my wife wasn't the one for me, I could have broken up with her and found someone else. Why hurt her instead for selfish reasons? I have no problems with people playing the dating game. I have no issues with people wanting to sleep with whomever they want, but my wife is a human being first. Even if I didn't want to be with her anymore, I would just break up and go to "nekkid woman standing in front of me". If you just gotta tap that, why not give your significant other the heads up that you don't want to be together any more?


But you were only four months into dating her. How would she know if you and "naked woman" hooked up?


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> But you were only four months into dating her. How would she know if you and "naked woman" hooked up?


Because @LATERILUS79 is an honest guy and wouldn't do that to someone he cares about. I know for me it was about 3-4 months in that my wife and I started having sex. Once that happened, no cheating.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Longtime Hubby said:


> But you were only four months into dating her. How would she know if you and "naked woman" hooked up?


That's a character and integrity issue that is important to self.

I had the chance with two attractive women today without possibility of being caught. I could have chosen either, had a great one off and no one but me and God would be the wiser.

Why didn't I?


----------



## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> That's a character and integrity issue that is important to self.
> 
> I had the chance with two attractive women today without possibility of being caught. I could have chosen either, had a great one off and no one but me and God would be the wiser.
> 
> Why didn't I?


Why didn't you? You've been clear about this: Cuz you've been married a long time. And you didn't want to step out on your wife. Maybe you two will have fun tonight (it's okay to think of those women when you do, LOL. After 27 years here, the mind does provide extra inspiration now and then. For both of us, btw)


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Longtime Hubby said:


> But you were only four months into dating her. How would she know if you and "naked woman" hooked up?


HE would know. His conscience would know.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> But you were only four months into dating her. How would she know if you and "naked woman" hooked up?


She wouldn't.

But I would.

I don't understand why this is difficult. I guess I have a different mind set. Just look at the people here who's lives have been destroyed. 

Look at the cheaters that have actual remorse. They can't even look at themselves in the mirror any more. They hate themselves. 

How did I learn this early on in my life? I'm guessing I've always followed the mantra of "treat others the way you want to be treated.".


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Longtime Hubby said:


> Why didn't you? You've been clear about this: Cuz you've been married a long time. And you didn't want to step out on your wife. Maybe you two will have fun tonight (it's okay to think of those women when you do, LOL. After 27 years here, the mind does provide extra inspiration now and then. For both of us, btw)


I actually don't think about anyone but Mrs. Conan when I'm with her. She is hawt too!😉

I travel a lot and I won't see my wife until Sunday.

I could get side women for our entire relationship, even when just dating for a week but that isn't me.😉


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> HE would know. His conscience would know.


God would too sister! 😉


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Yah I think making the assumption that all the OMs and OWs all became swingers is a far stretch. Most of the people I know were regular traditionally monogamous couples prior to coming into the lifestyle. I do know a few who lived the life of non-monogamy pretty much their whole lives two couples I can think of specifically are no longer together so perhaps they were simply non commitment as well.


My experience in the lifestyle was similar. 

I of course had no way of knowing or proving what anyone had done prior to meeting them and I can only go on what information they volunteered me, but many of the couples we met were basically high school sweet hearts or college sweet hearts that had been together for many years and had raised families and built careers etc and were now having some extra fun in middle age. 

Had some of them been cheaters at some point in their lives?? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. 

I can't put my hand on a bible and swear that there weren't any more than @BigDaddyNY can say that they are. 

My assumption is that what brought these people into the lifestyle is they wanted to have fun and sexy times WITH their spouse rather than cheating ON them. 

If they wanted to cheat, they would have cheated instead. In many ways cheating is a lot easier, you only have to get one person to go along with it. In swinging you have to get at minimum of 3 and often 4 or more to go along with it.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> That's a character and integrity issue that is important to self.
> 
> I had the chance with two attractive women today without possibility of being caught. I could have chosen either, had a great one off and no one but me and God would be the wiser.
> 
> Why didn't I?


God has His ways of allowing us to experience the consequences of our actions. He also has ways of bringing stuff we did out into the light.


----------



## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I actually don't think about anyone but Mrs. Conan when I'm with her. She is hawt too!😉
> 
> I travel a lot and I won't see my wife until Sunday.
> 
> I could get side women for our entire relationship, even when just dating for a week but that isn't me.😉





LATERILUS79 said:


> She wouldn't.
> 
> But I would.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. Carry on. As you were.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LATERILUS79 said:


> She wouldn't.
> 
> But I would.
> 
> ...


I think you mentioned your upbringing as well. 
I was blessed to have a lovely mum who had deep moral values and integrity. That must help.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> She wouldn't.
> 
> But I would.
> 
> ...


My time on TAM has only strengthened my resolve to remain faithful. The stories from here that I have shared with my wife have done the same for her. Thank you TAM!



ConanHub said:


> I actually don't think about anyone but Mrs. Conan when I'm with her. She is hawt too!😉
> 
> I travel a lot and I won't see my wife until Sunday.
> 
> I could get side women for our entire relationship, even when just dating for a week but that isn't me.😉


I normally travel a lot for work too, at least a few days to a week per month. It was that way for the majority of our marriage, worse when I was in the Army. Since the pandemic started, nearly two years straight in bed every night with my wife has been a huge treat. I tested positive for Covid a few days ago and we've been staying in sperate parts of the house. She is ALL I can think of right now, lol. It is killing me.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> She wouldn't.
> 
> But I would.
> 
> ...


Codes of honor and oaths and vows are incredibly important and rare.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> But you were only four months into dating her. How would she know if you and "naked woman" hooked up?


To be honest, it was considerably more difficult to run away from my gorgeous neighbor hitting on me 7 years ago when I was in the middle of a multi-year dead bedroom as opposed to running away from a 20-something naked woman when I was 22 years old.

Running from my neighbor when my wife shoved me into a dead bedroom prison was night and day more difficult and produced a ton of resentment towards my wife. I’m far from perfect and I have years of healing ahead of me in order to let go of that resentment. It takes more effort on my part not to be angry with my wife, angry with myself, angry at everything. I didn’t want to answer here making it sound like I’m some bastion of moral perfection. I have problems. Same as everyone else. I will do my best though to prevent doing the unforgivable actions towards others. I just can’t stand it when people are disingenuous.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> I think you mentioned your upbringing as well.
> I was blessed to have a lovely mum who had deep moral values and integrity. That must help.


I give full credit to my mom and dad for showing me how it is supposed to work, grandparents too.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> My time on TAM has only strengthened my resolve to remain faithful. The stories from here that I have shared with my wife have done the same for her. Thank you TAM!
> 
> 
> I normally travel a lot for work too, at least a few days to a week per month. It was that way for the majority of our marriage, worse when I was in the Army. Since the pandemic started, nearly two years straight in bed every night with my wife has been a huge treat. I tested positive for Covid a few days ago and we've been staying in sperate parts of the house. She is ALL I can think of right now, lol. It is killing me.


LoL! I'm not criticizing at all but I wouldn't be apart from Mrs. Conan if she had Ebola. I'm not that smart about some things though and I really appreciate your love for your wife!


----------



## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> To be honest, it was considerably more difficult to run away from my gorgeous neighbor hitting on me 7 years ago when I was in the middle of a multi-year dead bedroom as opposed to running away from a 20-something naked woman when I was 22 years old.
> 
> Running from my neighbor when my wife shoved me into a dead bedroom prison was night and day more difficult and produced a ton of resentment towards my wife. I’m far from perfect and I have years of healing ahead of me in order to let go of that resentment. It takes more effort on my part not to be angry with my wife, angry with myself, angry at everything. I didn’t want to answer here making it sound like I’m some bastion of moral perfection. I have problems. Same as everyone else. I will do my best though to prevent doing the unforgivable actions towards others. I just can’t stand it when people are disingenuous.


Been in that "dead bedroom prison." It's no fun Condolences. We were there five years ago. It's been a long, slow, steady process, but we've finally broken free. I bet the neighbor's offer was hard to resist. Been there, too. Not with a neighbor, but two close calls. I get where you're coming from.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> My experience in the lifestyle was similar.
> 
> I of course had no way of knowing or proving what anyone had done prior to meeting them and I can only go on what information they volunteered me, but many of the couples we met were basically high school sweet hearts or college sweet hearts that had been together for many years and had raised families and built careers etc and were now having some extra fun in middle age.
> 
> ...


Did you ever tell anyone in your swinger circles that you had a history of bedding nearly a dozen women behind their husbands' backs? How do you know they weren't all carbon copies of you and just keeping it secret?


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> LoL! I'm not criticizing at all but I wouldn't be apart from Mrs. Conan if she had Ebola. I'm not that smart about some things though and I really appreciate your love for your wife!


Believe me, if it were her that was positive I wouldn't give two craps about it. I would be cuddled right up next to her at night. It took every ounce of will power to not be with her. I'm not actually concerned about her dying, I barely even knew I had it. But it would be a nightmare for her at work if she had to quarantine. I'm looking forward to reunion sex


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> My time on TAM has only strengthened my resolve to remain faithful. The stories from here that I have shared with my wife have done the same for her. Thank you TAM!
> 
> 
> I normally travel a lot for work too, at least a few days to a week per month. It was that way for the majority of our marriage, worse when I was in the Army. Since the pandemic started, nearly two years straight in bed every night with my wife has been a huge treat. I tested positive for Covid a few days ago and we've been staying in sperate parts of the house. She is ALL I can think of right now, lol. It is killing me.


Hang in there, positive thoughts for your recovery.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

@oldshirt Do you have any regrets about swinging? What about your wife?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @oldshirt
> 
> 
> This makes me question what really drives the idea of “ethical” non-monogamy and swinging. Is it just a bunch of natural born cheaters with no respect for sex and marriage that decide to get together since they don’t have the will power to control themselves? How many of your fellow swingers were the POSOM/OW in an affair at one time too? I wonder how many marriages were violated by these swingers before they found someone to marry and go along with their behavior. I guess on the positive side it gets you all together so maybe you can stay out of the lives of couples attempting to stay true to their monogamous marriage.


I realise you're getting a little riled up and indignant here but to address something that's at least a bit on topic of the thread, let me address this above. 

Now as always this is my OPINION based on my observations and experience and what people have told onto me and such. I have no way of knowing one way or another what other people's backgrounds are or what has gone on in the privacy of their bedroom. 

My impression of the majority of the people we have met and what they have relayed to me is most of the people we knew in the lifestyle were high school or college sweethearts that met, dated, got married, built careers, raised children etc and now were having some sexy fun together in middle age. 

Were any of them cheaters or predators or sex fiends? I dunno. I never asked anyone of they were a cheater and if they were they did not volunteer that information to me. 

My take away impression of the lifestyle is that the sizable majority of the participants were the science geeks and math nerds more than the jocks and cheerleaders if you know what I mean. Many of us at the time even referred to it as "Adult Band Camp." I'd be wary of any flutes you might find laying around at the club LOL 

Are there cheaters and infidelity and such inside the greater swinging community? Yes, just like there is in any other segment of the population. There's cheaters in your church, there's cheaters in the work place, there's cheaters in the gym and on your coed softball teams and runner's groups (there's A LOT in the runner's groups for some reason..) but anyway, as I said in the opening post, this is all a part of reality and segment of society. 

Are there any MORE or any LESS cheaters in the swing population than general society? I dunno. Some in the swing community say there are stats to support there are less. My personal beliefs are that people are people no matter where they are so I'm inclined to believe it's similar. 

I will say two things however that I mentioned in my response to LongTime above - 

- it's easier to cheat. It's easier to get one person into bed than it is 3, 4 or more. I think if someone were more inclined and wanted to cheat, they would just do that rather than going through the work and hassle of trying to get 4 or more people on board. 

- the other is swinging is a completely different sexual domain. Swinging is something people do WITH their partner rather than ON their partner. 

Now if you want to look at them as sexual deviants and sex fiends and amoral and what not and you want to point fingers and judge - that's your perogative and your choice and on you. 

But as someone who has been in the lifestyle, I can't say either way with any surety and my personal belief is it's probably not much greater or lesser per capita that the general population.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Some people are monogamous because of their honor.
Some are monogamous out of fear.
Some are monogamous out of shame.
Some are monogamous because they are demi-sexual.

But in the end the average length of a monogamous relationship is about 7 years.
Many are unfaithful.
Few are consensually non-monogamous.
If I was allowed the choice I would have preferred to be in a monogamous relationship with someone who had the same motivation as me. I also would hve prefered if the non-monogamous relationship had been consensual.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @oldshirt Do you have any regrets about swinging? What about your wife?


No and no. 

No regrets but will we ever get back into it? At least not anything like we were before. 

It worked well for us. We've had extensive soul-searching and discussions on this and we are both in agreement that it was not only a positive experience but a very good point in our relationship. It was a time when we had some of the best communication and teamwork and mutual respect and compassion and had each other's back. 

Now in the interest of transparency we have had relationship issues and our sexlife now is virtually nothing like it was in days gone by. It was those issues that have brought me here to TAM a few years ago and I have posted of our issues here over the years. 

Were our relationship issues caused by me running off with the Swedish Bikini Team or her wanting to invite the LA Lakers to our Christmas dinner followed by a gang bang? No unfortunately it was more of me not helping out enough around the house or pulling my share of dealing with the kids and me whining about her declining libido and the meds she was on making her like a zombie 24/7 and crawling into bed exhausted by 7PM. 

The next logical question will be did the swing cause the problems? Causation no. A factor? Probably, but to what degree I don't know. 

I do feel comfortable in saying going from living the life porn stars would be envious of , to going to one of these guys whining about his menopausal wife's waning sex drive and lack of passion and spontanaity was a culture shock and a big adjustment. 

Our involvement in the lifestyle was winding down to it's closing acts due to age and menopause and such anyway, and to our credit we had the wisdom to pull the ejection handle on the swinging when the cracks in the relationship started to appear. 

So did it last forever and we'll be swinging Gramps and Granny when we're 80. Nope, those days are behind us. 

But no regrets for either of us. 

Now are there people out there that blew their lives up and DO regret it. Yeah just read through some of the posts here. 

And my prediction is we are going to see more and more of them as time goes on as these types of lifestyles become more prevalent. 

Things like bisexuality and having 3-somes with one's partner is darn near becoming expected and standardized in the 20-somethings now. 

couple/couple swinging still carries some stigma and taboo but those walls are starting to come down a brick at a time as well.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> No and no.
> 
> No regrets but will we ever get back into it? At least not anything like we were before.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the candid answer. You have adult children, right? Would you ever consider letting them know about this? You spin it as, lets say at least 90% positive for you and your wife. I know most parents actually suck at talking about sex and relationships with their kids. I struggle, but do it because I want them to know what I think is right. At the same time my wife and I have demonstrated it to them. Even talked about about how you should always remain faithful to your partner. What have you taught your kids about this aspect of life?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Did you ever tell anyone in your swinger circles that you had a history of bedding nearly a dozen women behind their husbands' backs? How do you know they weren't all carbon copies of you and just keeping it secret?


Are you trying to point fingers and imply that swingers don't blab all their personal business and dirty laundry LOL 

Remember, it's an underground world that values discretion and privacy. Everyone has their secrets.

If you want a life of full disclosure and confession, be a priest.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> Are you trying to point fingers and imply that swingers don't blab all their personal business and dirty laundry LOL
> 
> Remember, it's an underground world that values discretion and privacy. Everyone has their secrets.
> 
> If you want a life of full disclosure and confession, be a priest.


Preist.... You wanna talk about secrets...


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Preist.... You wanna talk about secrets...


They throw the best parties by far. i hope they wash those chalices before communion.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Thanks for the candid answer. You have adult children, right? Would you ever consider letting them know about this? You spin it as, lets say at least 90% positive for you and your wife. I know most parents actually suck at talking about sex and relationships with their kids. I struggle, but do it because I want them to know what I think is right. At the same time my wife and I have demonstrated it to them. Even talked about about how you should always remain faithful to your partner. What have you taught your kids about this aspect of life?


Let me answer bluntly what I assume your really asking me. If they come to me and ask me what I think about swinging, I will tell them what I think of it. the good, the bad, the ugly. 

will we ever tell them specifics of what our sex practices and activities are? No of course not just like I assume you won't tell your kids that you like your ass tickled with a feather while you suck your wife's toes. It's simply none of their business and they don't need to know and disclosure of our sex practices will be of no benefit to them or to us. 

Since they were little I have had a very matter-of-fact, this-is-how-the-world-IS approach with them vs how the world should necessarily be. I don't speak as graphically with them as I do here by my tone is much the same. 

They know that alternative lifestyles exist in the world and they know that those lifestyles will be more prevalent and visable in their lives than what they were in ours. 

Kids today are much more aware and accepting of alternative lifestyles than we ever were. 

Out of our kid's peer groups, we are one of the few couples that are actually still married and still together. Dang near all of their other peers have either divorced parents or never-married parents or two moms or two dads or whatever. 

I hate to sound dismissive, but we are actually some of the most conservative and traditional parents and families in our community. 

My wife is a little more traditional and church oriented that I am. but we have both pretty much raised them to be their own person and live their own lives and relationships. We've raised them to be safe, responsible, respectful, compassionate and to not be dumb. We've raised them to stand up for themselves and advocate for their own best interests and not be pushed around or manipulated. 

We've also not tried to force them into any particular pidgeon hole. We have not demanded purety rings or swear virginity until married or any of that bullcrap. 

We've acknowledged that their generation will be chosing their own relationship dynamics whether it's what their grandparents approve of or not. so we've tried to instill safety, responsibility, respect and not being dumb into them.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Preist.... You wanna talk about secrets...


Good point. I stand corrected.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Hmm. And here I thought the only appropriate things to tell my children about sex when they were minors was 1) don't get pregnant and 2) make sure you have consent for whatever you do. 

Everything else is their choice. I don't have to teach them that monogamy is better than an open marriage is better than swinging because these things are not objective facts. Their choices will certainly differ from mine. The only reason to behave otherwise would be the belief that they were not capable of making good choices of their own free will based on their desires. How condescending.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @oldshirt
> 
> 
> Intentional or not I feel like you’ve tried to glorify swinging and ENM to some degree.


If I am trying to glorify swinging, would you at least say that I am doing a really crappy job of? LOL 

How many people are running right out to sign up?


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Let me answer bluntly what I assume your really asking me. If they come to me and ask me what I think about swinging, I will tell them what I think of it. the good, the bad, the ugly.
> 
> will we ever tell them specifics of what our sex practices and activities are? No of course not just like I assume you won't tell your kids that you like your ass tickled with a feather while you suck your wife's toes. It's simply none of their business and they don't need to know and disclosure of our sex practices will be of no benefit to them or to us.
> 
> ...


Lol. Your answers......

First thing you said was, "let me answer bluntly" 

Then you went onto to be vague. You are too smart not to be doing that on purpose.


No one needs to know specifics in the bedroom. That much we can agree upon.


Let me give an example of what I think bigdaddy was asking.


Bigdaddy, when my kids get to be adult age and they can understand relationships, I will tell them that I love their mother. I've loved her within 3 months of dating her. I saved PIV sex for the first woman I truly fell in love with. It was important for me personally because I think it something special. I did not save any other act for her. I wanted to at explore somewhat. Just use your imagination kids. We will leave it at that.

I am Thankful that the first woman I truly fell jn love with was your mother, but that didn't guarantee that we would get married, so I'm not going to say that I saved sex for marriage. I did not.

You can both determine how you want to live your lives in your relationships. I believe the way your mother and j did it is the way to go to form a long lasting, loving bond. That's not to say we didn't have problems. We had severe problems that almost Broke us. I've thought of leaving on multiple occasions. Marriage is hard work. Both have to work together to make it work.

There are other lifestyles out there that work for other people. I do not have the mindset to have a clear picture on how they work as it wouldn't work for me. You have to find your own path, but I believe hard work and effort on the same path your mother and I went down has the best chance of success.



Now OS, instead of saying to your adult children "I'll tell them what I think. The good bad and ugly", will you tell them what you've done? The previous sentence is vague and doesn't confirm that 1. You would tell them that you are a swinger. You shared yourself with many people. Their mother shared herself with many people.

As for your life prior to marriage.... I don't even know what to say, so I'll just say this: if I were to ever cheat or if my wife did, my kids would know when they are adults. They need to know who their parents are.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Cletus said:


> Hmm. And here I thought the only appropriate things to tell my children about sex when they were minors was 1) don't get pregnant and 2) make sure you have consent for whatever you do.
> 
> Everything else is their choice. I don't have to teach them that monogamy is better than an open marriage is better than swinging because these things are not objective facts. Their choices will certainly differ from mine. The only reason to behave otherwise would be the belief that they were not capable of making good choices of their own free will based on their desires. How condescending.


It isn't condissention to teach your kids what you think is right or wrong, is it?

BTW, I taught my minor children the exact same thing as you. It is now that they are young adults that we get into different territory.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> It isn't condissention to teach your kids what you think is right or wrong, is it?


Tough question. I think back to all the people through the decades who had a non-normative sexuality. How many gay children were told by their parents that they were morally bereft for loving someone of the same sex? How many young adults were disowned or took their own life? Too many. 

Teaching your children what you thinks is right or wrong is part of a parent's responsibility, I agree. Not respecting their right to choose otherwise should be avoided. It's a tough line to tip-toe. You won't hear me advocating for allowing an 11 year old to start transitioning either. Adults get to make adult decisions. Children are not so entitled.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Now OS, instead of saying to your adult children "I'll tell them what I think. The good bad and ugly", will you tell them what you've done? The previous sentence is vague and doesn't confirm that 1. You would tell them that you are a swinger. You shared yourself with many people. Their mother shared herself with many people.
> 
> As for your life prior to marriage.... I don't even know what to say, so I'll just say this: if I were to ever cheat or if my wife did, my kids would know when they are adults. They need to know who their parents are.


 I thought I was clear. 

No, we won't tell them. Just as I assume you won't tell your kids about the time you dressed up as a gladiator and she as a slave girl on the night before the big spectacle at the coliseum. 

As I said above, that information is none of their business and won't benefit them. 

My wife and I were not high school sweethearts that met at church choir practice and were good little virgins until we said I do. 

We were adults when we got together and we each had our own histories. We weren't perfect kids and neither lived squeeky clean lives. We lived real lives including things the Vatican would not bless. 

Our kids know this. They know we weren't perfect. They know we weren't squeeky clean and they know that we each had prior relationships.

They also know we chose to be with each other despite not living Hallmark Card lives prior. 

But they've grown up their whole lives with two parents that love and honor and respect each other that hug and smooch and show affection and that have been there through all the triumphs and tragedies of life and are actually one of few parents that are still married and in a nuclear family out of their entire peer groups. 

We are actually one of the most conservative and traditional families out of all of their cohorts. 

But that's me. Maybe other swingers do tell their kids. I dunno, don't care either way. What others tell their kids isn't any of my beezwax.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> if I were to ever cheat or if my wife did, my kids would know when they are adults. .


If their parents were to divorce due to you or your wife cheating in your current marriage, I would agree they should be informed as that is something that will impact them and their lives going forward. 

But something that happened over 30 years ago before their parents even met??? That's just plain silly and you know it.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I thought I was clear.
> 
> No, we won't tell them. Just as I assume you won't tell your kids about the time you dressed up as a gladiator and she as a slave girl on the night before the big spectacle at the coliseum.
> 
> ...


Phew! You laid on the condescension pretty thick with that last post! 😂

again, the way you deflect.

you Compared a role playing experience between a husband and wife to swinging!!!! What a joke!😂😂😂😂

you are right. I won’t tell my kids what happens behind closed doors, but they’ll know that I’ve only had sex with their mother by my choice - and considering all the “choir boy” insults, my guess is that it burns you that a predator hasn’t been able to bed my wife yet.

because that is how your threads read. You decided to lower yourself to a cheater, probably didn’t feel too good about it, so now you have to pull everyone down to your level because you don’t want to be the only one that feels that way. So the way you feel better is to say, “all of you guys that think you have good wives? Guess again! I’m out there and so are other guys like me! We will pull your wives down to our level!” That is what I see when I read your words.






oldshirt said:


> If their parents were to divorce due to you or your wife cheating in your current marriage, I would agree they should be informed as that is something that will impact them and their lives going forward.
> 
> But something that happened over 30 years ago before their parents even met??? That's just plain silly and you know it.


No it isn’t. Not by a long shot.

i have plenty more to say about this but I don’t want to get banned. I get way too much help from the good community members here to continue this.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> No it isn’t. Not by a long shot.
> 
> i have plenty more to say about this but I don’t want to get banned. I get way too much help from the good community members here to continue this.


I'm not meaning to sound condescending and I have been the one that has been the butt of people's ire here. 

But the thing that has me curious is why on earth you and Big Daddy are so concerned about what I tell my kids about my sex life. Why does that matter to you? You don't think it's a little creepy for a grown man to be adamant that another grown man tells his kids about his sex life???

So let me turn this back on you and you may have the floor,,,,,,,, Why?? 

More specifically, what would be the benefit for me telling my children what their parents have done in bed? How will their lives benefit from that information?

And you can't say because they would know me. They already know me, they have lived with me their entire lives since the day they were born. 

Other than making YOU feel better in your sense of cosmic right vs wrong, (I still think it's creepy, but I'm trying to understand in case I'm missing something) what tangible benefit will come from them knowing what sex practices their parents have done?


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> you are right. I won’t tell my kids what happens behind closed doors, but they’ll know that I’ve only had sex with their mother by my choice - and considering all the “choir boy” insults, my guess is that it burns you that a predator hasn’t been able to bed my wife yet.
> 
> because that is how your threads read. You decided to lower yourself to a cheater, probably didn’t feel too good about it, so now you have to pull everyone down to your level because you don’t want to be the only one that feels that way. So the way you feel better is to say, “all of you guys that think you have good wives? Guess again! I’m out there and so are other guys like me! We will pull your wives down to our level!” That is what I see when I read your words.


My wife was 28 and I was 31 when we married. We've been open with our kids that we had other relationships before we met and that we decided we were the right match for each other and chose each other. Is that really morally inferior than if we told them we had only been with each other?

As far as your assertion about the other stuff, I'm sorry but that is your baggage. I've explicitly stated that I'm glad things are good with your wife and I wish you continued health and happiness in your marriage. 

I understand that you don't agree with many of my lifestyle choices and my world views, but I have never said or implied those things. Those are YOUR insecurities and baggage talking. I'm sorry you feel that way but those are not my words or my message. 

I want people to have good, loving, healthy relationships.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Lol. Your answers......
> 
> First thing you said was, "let me answer bluntly"
> 
> ...


I have to say I don't think I have ever known anyone who talks to their kids about their sex life. I mean they know we have sex but why on earth would you go into any other detail. I don't think there would be a family therapist, or counselor of any kind that would say discussing your personal sex life with your kids is a good idea of has any benefit at all. 

And I don't understand all the hostility toward @oldshirt, is it that he slept with a few married women back in his twenties when he was single. I mean if he didn't someone else would have, meaning he was responsible for the infidelity in that marriage the woman was so she was going to cheat anyways. I'm not saying it was a fine thing to do, but it seems to be attracting more hostility than making some poor decisions in his teens and twenties should.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cletus said:


> Tough question. I think back to all the people through the decades who had a non-normative sexuality. How many gay children were told by their parents that they were morally bereft for loving someone of the same sex? How many young adults were disowned or took their own life? Too many.
> 
> Teaching your children what you thinks is right or wrong is part of a parent's responsibility, I agree. Not respecting their right to choose otherwise should be avoided. It's a tough line to tip-toe. You won't hear me advocating for allowing an 11 year old to start transitioning either. Adults get to make adult decisions. Children are not so entitled.


It is tough because it's a moving target. The goal posts move. 

I'm older than most and had kids later in life than most people here. When I was my youngest's age, Gender reassignment surgery had been performed on like 5 people. Homosexual activities were still a criminal offense in a number of states. Interracial marriage was still technically illegal in a few states. And same sex marriage was only legal what, 10 years ago, if that? 

There was essentially no legal protections in education, employment and housing and other services for people of different orientations and lifestyles. 

There were no hate crime statutes and while actual assault and arson and such were technically criminal offences, there was a whole lot of looking the other way and whole lot of proscecutors that didn't think they had enough evidence despite dozens of witness and mountains of physical evidence. 

Today, it's the discrimination that is illegal. Today the people losing their jobs and having lawsuits filed on them are the bigots and the Karens. 

When I was my sons age, the people in the alternative lifestyles were considered bad and in the wrong. Today it's the people that would judge, discriminate or mistreat them that are bad and in the wrong.

As parents we have to instill values and right from wrong with our kids,,,,, but we also have to be aware of the times and the rules and standards of current society as well. When I was my son's age, a kid could get kicked out of school for being gay. But today a kid will get in trouble for making a gay joke or get kicked out for gay bashing. 

and in some ways, the kids are probably more in tune with real world than we are.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I'm not meaning to sound condescending and I have been the one that has been the butt of people's ire here.
> 
> But the thing that has me curious is why on earth you and Big Daddy are so concerned about what I tell my kids about my sex life. Why does that matter to you? You don't think it's a little creepy for a grown man to be adamant that another grown man tells his kids about his sex life???
> 
> ...


Screw it. I’ll give one more answer and I’ll be done with it 

whether you admit it or not, you were CLEARLY acting like you were superior for some reason due to being non-monogamous. I really don’t care what you say at this point against that, I simply don’t believe you.

then you were incredulous that this here “choir boy“ would be the REAL threat by hitting on your wife. Me. The one and only. YOU were worried about ME. You, the cheater that most likely destroyed multiple marriages and possibly families. You thought I was crazy to worry about you. Again, I felt something was off and it turned out to be correct. You are EXACTLY the type of guy to worry about. You wait for vulnerabilities and exploit them in married women. You said even today that if a married woman gave you a nudge, you’d go for it. So, it looks like I was 100% to say that it would be crazy for me or my family to associate with someone like you. You are still willing to this day to have an affair!!!

How does this get back to your kids? It has nothing to do what goes on behind closed doors. All you need to say is that you’ve slept with many married women and your wife slept with many married men. You don’t even have to go into the fact that you started out your relationship with your wife cheating on another man. But if your way is so much better, so superior to “choir boys”, then tell you kids. I mean, you have nothing to be ashamed about right?

I will end with this: you’ve helped me well. I’m now confident that I can recognize a wolf in sheeps clothing in real life if I can recognize it just through the written word. And no, I didn’t read your old threads before I figured that out. Your old threads just confirmed what I already thought.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I'm not meaning to sound condescending and I have been the one that has been the butt of people's ire here.
> 
> But the thing that has me curious is why on earth you and Big Daddy are so concerned about what I tell my kids about my sex life. Why does that matter to you? You don't think it's a little creepy for a grown man to be adamant that another grown man tells his kids about his sex life???
> 
> ...


As I understand it, if you are of the view that it's fine for you and your wife to have sex with others and that swinging is a perfectly acceptable thing to do, then why are you so very reluctant to share that with your children? No one has mentioned anything about sharing every intimate detail. 
There must be reasons why you dont want them to know. 
If we are happy to share with our children that faithfulness is what we think is the best way to live, so why are you so reluctant to share that it's not necessary for a good marriage? 
Are you worried about what they may think for example?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> It is tough because it's a moving target. The goal posts move.
> 
> I'm older than most and had kids later in life than most people here. When I was my youngest's age, Gender reassignment surgery had been performed on like 5 people. Homosexual activities were still a criminal offense in a number of states. Interracial marriage was still technically illegal in a few states. And same sex marriage was only legal what, 10 years ago, if that?
> 
> ...


Just because values in society have changed, some things are still important and some things need to be held on to. Such as faithful marriages. We dont have to all go along with the falling standards or the sense that 'anything goes'.
We dont have to accept that our children need to have the falling standards either.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I have to say I don't think I have ever known anyone who talks to their kids about their sex life. I mean they know we have sex but why on earth would you go into any other detail. I don't think there would be a family therapist, or counselor of any kind that would say discussing your personal sex life with your kids is a good idea of has any benefit at all.
> 
> And I don't understand all the hostility toward @oldshirt, is it that he slept with a few married women back in his twenties when he was single. I mean if he didn't someone else would have, meaning he was responsible for the infidelity in that marriage the woman was so she was going to cheat anyways. I'm not saying it was a fine thing to do, but it seems to be attracting more hostility than making some poor decisions in his teens and twenties should.


We dont share the details with our children but we do share the values we have about sex and marriage.Thats important.
He doesn't want his children to know his values and that is telling. 
He did say he slept with many married women. He has also slept with many married women since being married. It didnt stop.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I have to say I don't think I have ever known anyone who talks to their kids about their sex life. I mean they know we have sex but why on earth would you go into any other detail. I don't think there would be a family therapist, or counselor of any kind that would say discussing your personal sex life with your kids is a good idea of has any benefit at all.
> 
> And I don't understand all the hostility toward @oldshirt, is it that he slept with a few married women back in his twenties when he was single. I mean if he didn't someone else would have, meaning he was responsible for the infidelity in that marriage the woman was so she was going to cheat anyways. I'm not saying it was a fine thing to do, but it seems to be attracting more hostility than making some poor decisions in his teens and twenties should.


I'm not talking about telling your kids the nitty gritty of your sex life. I'm talking about at a high level. I don't think it is all that strange that I would talk to my kids about my view on monogamy and that I believe you should be faithful to your spouse. It is part of who I am and what I believe in. @oldshirt has made it abundantly clear that monogamy isn't his thing, nor his wife's. It is who he is, what he believes in. Why wouldn't he want to share that view with his children? I'm asking because I get the sense that he is actually ashamed of it even though he says he isn't and has no regrets. I'm not talking about telling your kids about how mommy and daddy screwed in the backseat of a car at a concert. I'm talking about telling your kids about your fundamental beliefs. I think your stance on monogamy is a fundamental belief. If there are no regrets about a fundamental belief you have why wouldn't you share that with your children in an appropriate way and at an appropriate age? Being ashamed is the only thing I can really come up with, but maybe there is another reason.

I think some of that hostility is coming from how things are being said here and in the old threads of his that were mentioned. The old threads were definitely posted with good intent. A warning for others that even the most faithful wife could stray given the right circumstances and that there are predators or scavengers out there waiting to jump at the opportunity. They may even be average Joe that you hang out with time to time, so beware. Problem is that his style of conveying the message comes off very boastful, quite disturbing and very unrepentant. I know he was trying to be blunt and impactful to get his point across, but instead all I took away was that he was an unrepentant POSOM that didn't care about anything other than his own physical gratification. That kind of attitude is going to disgust some people to their core. He even said he purposely went looking for married women because he was too lazy to foster a real relationship. The women were just easy pieces of meat to get off with. I realize people do dumb things when they are younger, but he did this right up until he took his wife from her BF when he was around 30. He wasn't a dumb teen or 20 something. 10 years later he's back to sex with other men's wives, but at least it was with their permission at that point. As a whole this sounds like some pretty abhorrent behavior. And I don't ever buy the excuse that if it wasn't him then they would have cheated with someone else. I say let the other guy be the douche that thinks it is cool to bed women behind their husbands back and take the high road. If enough people take the high road I think we will all be better off.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> Have you read the responses though? VERY FEW are positive, open-minded, or generous.
> 
> I almost called you...Lol!!!!


No not yet. And boy I can see I have some catching up to do. This might take a while. Feel free to point me to anything specific.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Talker67 said:


> I recently grilled some pineapple:
> 
> View attachment 82002
> 
> ...


Only if you put them in an pineapple upside-down cake.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Depends, is the plan to have a party and use them for couples to play ring toss with. Women on one side throwing men on the other side receiving?


Wow! Way to deflate those male egos!


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

maquiscat said:


> Only if you put them in an pineapple upside-down cake.


wait, is that like a Hoboken Squat Cobbler?


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

GaLaxya said:


> No worries, you won't be able to talk anyone into it.


I agree, there is no talking anyone into these alternative lifestyles. What there is however, is a) helping people to accept and understand that they are valid choice for those who want to, and that such people are not broken. And b) you can talk a person who is hesitant into safe exploration to make up their mind one way or the other.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

maquiscat said:


> I agree, there is no talking anyone into these alternative lifestyles. What there is however, is a) helping people to accept and understand that they are valid choice for those who want to, and that such people are not broken. And b) you can talk a person who is hesitant into safe exploration to make up their mind one way or the other.


Do you have children? You appear to be in a very happy and healthy, but very "non-traditional" relationship lifestyle. If you have kids, how open are you with them about your lifestyle and views on relationships? I know a lot depends on how old they are too.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Do you have children? You appear to be in a very happy and healthy, but very "non-traditional" relationship lifestyle. If you have kids, how open are you with them about your lifestyle and views on relationships? I know a lot depends on how old they are too.


I don't know if we'd share that info with our adult kids. Do think that some things need to be filed away as special for a couple. So if we were to "branch out," we wouldn't be telling our kids "oh we met this nice couple on vacation and had some very hot nights" LOL


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> I don't know if we'd share that info with our adult kids. Do think that some things need to be filed away as special for a couple. So if we were to "branch out," we wouldn't be telling our kids "oh we met this nice couple on vacation and had some very hot nights" LOL


Yeah, I get that and I can't claim whether I would tell or not either. It is all theoretical, but I'm leaning towards no and that is actually part of the point I'm trying to get at. 

I have no hesitation to tell my children that I believe monogamy is the best way to live in a relationship for us and I think people in general. I have no shame or embarrassment in saying that. It is my deeply held belief. If we got with that couple on vacation and started getting with them regularly and moved into non-monogamy, I'm not so sure I would tell my kids. That is because I would have some level of embarrassment and shame associated with it. It is it goes against my belief in monogamy. However, those that have fully embraced non-monogamy, in what ever form, shouldn't have any reason to feel embarrassed or ashamed. At least I wouldn't think so, unless on some level they really thought it was shameful. Hopefully I'm being clear about this.


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Yeah, I get that and I can't claim whether I would tell or not either. It is all theoretical, but I'm leaning towards no and that is actually part of the point I'm trying to get at.
> 
> I have no hesitation to tell my children that I believe monogamy is the best way to live in a relationship for us and I think people in general. I have no shame or embarrassment in saying that. It is my deeply held belief. If we got with that couple on vacation and started getting with them regularly and moved into non-monogamy, I'm not so sure I would tell my kids. That is because I would have some level of embarrassment and shame associated with it. It is it goes against my belief in monogamy. However, those that have fully embraced non-monogamy, in what ever form, shouldn't have any reason to feel embarrassed or ashamed. At least I wouldn't think so, unless on some level they really thought it was shameful. Hopefully I'm being clear about this.


Very clear. and I think being monogamous is probably the safest route. But I also think that sometimes, if the situation presents itself, we would be willing to experiment with another couple. We've talked about it often, more so each passing year. Now do we seek people? No. Are we open to the idea? Yes. And if that idea arose? Depends on a lot of variables. Right now, been 27 years me and her, well, over 27 if count serious dating time.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Yeah, I get that and I can't claim whether I would tell or not either. It is all theoretical, but I'm leaning towards no and that is actually part of the point I'm trying to get at.
> 
> I have no hesitation to tell my children that I believe monogamy is the best way to live in a relationship for us and I think people in general. I have no shame or embarrassment in saying that. It is my deeply held belief. If we got with that couple on vacation and started getting with them regularly and moved into non-monogamy, I'm not so sure I would tell my kids. That is because I would have some level of embarrassment and shame associated with it. It is it goes against my belief in monogamy. However, those that have fully embraced non-monogamy, in what ever form, shouldn't have any reason to feel embarrassed or ashamed. At least I wouldn't think so, unless on some level they really thought it was shameful. Hopefully I'm being clear about this.


And you believe that YOUR way of discussing sexual experiences with one's children is RIGHT because....??


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Yeah, I get that and I can't claim whether I would tell or not either. It is all theoretical, but I'm leaning towards no and that is actually part of the point I'm trying to get at.
> 
> I have no hesitation to tell my children that I believe monogamy is the best way to live in a relationship for us and I think people in general. I have no shame or embarrassment in saying that. It is my deeply held belief. If we got with that couple on vacation and started getting with them regularly and moved into non-monogamy, I'm not so sure I would tell my kids. That is because I would have some level of embarrassment and shame associated with it. It is it goes against my belief in monogamy. However, those that have fully embraced non-monogamy, in what ever form, shouldn't have any reason to feel embarrassed or ashamed. At least I wouldn't think so, unless on some level they really thought it was shameful. Hopefully I'm being clear about this.


My talks regarding sex with my kids have been pretty vanilla, it's 2022 they are teenagers they know all about various lifestyles if they asked about alternative lifestyles I would say if it's your thing go for it. But I think I can say with 99.99% certainty my kids don't want to hear how freaky their parents can get. My kids know we have a very happy and healthy relationship, we are not shy about being affectionate around them, it grosses them out.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> And you believe that YOUR way of discussing sexual experiences with one's children is RIGHT because....??


I'm not 100% sure it is, that's why I'm asking and trying to understand other's thought process on this. I'm witnessing the results of mine and my wife's way of doing things and it seems to have worked out well so far. Only time will tell. 

Am I really the only one here that has talked to their kids about monogamy?


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I'm not 100% sure it is, that's why I'm asking and trying to understand other's thought process on this. I'm witnessing the results of mine and my wife's way of doing things and it seems to have worked out well so far. Only time will tell.
> 
> Am I really the only one here that has talked to their kids about monogamy?


I think kids learn by example at times. See wife and I. 27 years, faithful. I’m not talking to kids about monogamy.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> My talks regarding sex with my kids have been pretty vanilla, it's 2022 they are teenagers they know all about various lifestyles if they asked about alternative lifestyles I would say if it's your thing go for it. But I think I can say with 99.99% certainty my kids don't want to hear how freaky their parents can get. My kids know we have a very happy and healthy relationship, we are not shy about being affectionate around them, it grosses them out.


Grossing your kids out with spousal affection is one of the big perks of parenthood, lol.

So... getting freaky. I don't talk about anything freaky we do in the bedroom together, but they know it is only ever me and her. I don't consider telling them it is only ever us two as telling them anything freaky, but I assume you consider bringing someone else in as freaky. Why isn't it just normal?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Longtime Hubby said:


> I think kids learn by example at times. See wife and I. 27 years, faithful. I’m not talking to kids about monogamy.


What does faithful mean to you? In my mind faithful includes monogamy, among other things.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Am I really the only one here that has talked to their kids about monogamy?


I didn't. We are monogamous. My children are too, _I think_, because they are (or will soon be) in traditional marriages, and because I neither expect nor want them to describe the intricacies of their sex lives. We also have friends with a non-binary child who will be married this summer as part of a thruple. We will be at the service. 

So you told your children you thought monogamy was the best choice. That's fine. Now it's unlikely that they would be open with you if they chose something else, but what would you do if they did?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I'm not 100% sure it is, that's why I'm asking and trying to understand other's thought process on this. I'm witnessing the results of mine and my wife's way of doing things and it seems to have worked out well so far. Only time will tell.
> 
> Am I really the only one here that has talked to their kids about monogamy?


I haven't talked to my kids YOUR way, I don't think. I also have never used my communication with them to declare that my way is the only way or even the best way. And just because I don't talk about something personal about myself (to my kids or to anyone) doesn't mean I'm ashamed of it.

I believe the comments on this thread are a perfect example of why people choose to HIDE and don't want to share controversial opinions and/or life choices. 

Just because I'm not ashamed of something doesn't mean I want to be attacked and snidely laughed at by others about it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> What does faithful mean to you? In my mind faithful includes monogamy, among other things.


Faithful for me is living up to whatever arrangement you made when you got married, or if not, at least updating that arrangement with your partner's full consent and participation. 

How can it possibly be considered unfaithful when you are doing something that everyone has agreed to?


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## 346745 (Oct 7, 2020)

BigDaddyNY said:


> What does faithful mean to you? In my mind faithful includes monogamy, among other things.


Right and they see it. No need to say it


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Cletus said:


> I didn't. We are monogamous. My children are too, _I think_, because they are (or will soon be) in traditional marriages, and because I neither expect nor want them to describe the intricacies of their sex lives. We also have friends with a non-binary child who will be married this summer as part of a thruple. We will be at the service.
> 
> So you told your children you thought monogamy was the best choice. That's fine. Now it's unlikely that they would be open with you if they chose something else, but what would you do if they did?


Nah, we were clear that we are open and supportive to whoever they want to be. We expressed what we think, but didn't keep beating it like a drum. I would say 90%-95% of how they learned that is through example, like @Longtime Hubby said. They see it. They seen me and her tell each other a million times that I love you and you are the only one for me.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> I haven't talked to my kids YOUR way, I don't think. I also have never used my communication with them to declare that my way is the only way or even the best way. And just because I don't talk about something personal about myself (to my kids or to anyone) doesn't mean I'm ashamed of it.
> 
> I believe the comments on this thread are a perfect example of why people choose to HIDE and don't want to share controversial opinions and/or life choices.
> 
> Just because I'm not ashamed of something doesn't mean I want to be attacked and snidely laughed at by others about it.


Why hide it from adult children?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Why hide it from adult children?


Because it's MY CHOICE to do what I think is best as a parent.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Cletus said:


> Faithful for me is living up to whatever arrangement you made when you got married, or if not, at least updating that arrangement with your partner's full consent and participation.
> 
> How can it possibly be considered unfaithful when you are doing something that everyone has agreed to?


That makes sense. Again, I'm thinking from my standpoint of lifelong monogamy and the fact that the vast majority of people marry with the expectation of monogamy. Monogamy is a core belief for me and I won't be changing it.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Why hide it from adult children?


Your conditions and standards and expectations are yours and have a different meaning to you than they do to me.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That makes sense. Again, I'm thinking from my standpoint of lifelong monogamy and the fact that the vast majority of people marry with the expectation of monogamy. Monogamy is a core belief for me and I won't be changing it.


And do you notice that no one is ridiculing you or openly challenging you based on your sexual choices??


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> Because it's MY CHOICE to do what I think is best as a parent.


I completely respect that it is your choice. It just seems to me that you are hiding who you really are. That's just the way I feel.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> And do you notice that no one is ridiculing you or openly challenging you based on your sexual choices??


That I'm not so sure about. There have been plenty of posts here that imply I am not as enlightened in someway because of my views. After pointing that out the next post will say that isn't what was meant, but it seems that way to me, and I think to some others.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I completely respect that it is your choice. It just seems to me that you are hiding who you really are. That's just the way I feel.


That's fine. You can feel that way all you want...however, just because you feel something doesn't make it reality.

That's why maintaining an open mind, especially in a large group of diverse people, creates the best environment for sharing and learning about other people -- and about our differences and our similarities.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> We dont share the details with our children but we do share the values we have about sex and marriage.Thats important.
> He doesn't want his children to know his values and that is telling.


Ah but this is where you and @BigDaddyNY and @LATERILUS79 aren't getting it (I know you really do get it, you just don't like it or approve of it) But we DO share our values with our kids. Our values are love and support and safety and responsibility and mutual respect and compassion etc etc and we impress upon our kids that consenting adults will have to chose their own path in life for what works best for them. 

Everyone's kids are going to ultimately choose their own path in life and will not necessarily follow in their parent's footsteps whether those parents are church virgins or porn stars. 

What we don't impose on our kids are YOUR values. 

And no, we are not going to tell our kids what we do in bed and we are certainly not going to have some weird "numbers" discussion with our children. 

Y'alls fascination with this is just plain weird and creepy. What kid wants to hear about their parent's sex life AT ALL? 

Now to try to wrap this particular thread jack up and come back on topic, Some swingers out there may be more open about their own personal activities with their friends and family, but I assume most keep their private matters private. 

If anyone ELSE has a DIFFERENT and LEGITIMATE question in regards to how people in the lifestyle balance between their private life and the rest of their friends and family, I will entertain that. 

If either of you 3 come back with anything about children, you will be reported for thread jacking and harassment. 

It's time to move on.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That I'm not so sure about. There have been plenty of posts here that imply I am not as enlightened in someway because of my views. After pointing that out the next post will say that isn't what was meant, but it seems that way to me, and I think to some others.


Maybe you don't understand what I meant by "openly ridiculing"...I didn't say "not as enlightened". I mean being grossly disrespected over and over. Did you notice how quiet this thread got? Why do you think no one else wanted to post on here...because they all agreed with you? Or because it was turning into a crap-show and they didn't want to end up covered in crap?

I've never seen that happen to you, but I could have missed it...but if it did, I would find it just as ugly and distasteful as I do when you do it.

The next time someone says that the people who practice non-monogamy are treated with kid gloves, I will laugh in their face and point them to this thread.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> Maybe you don't understand what I meant by "openly ridiculing"...I didn't say "not as enlightened". I mean being grossly disrespected over and over. Did you notice how quiet this thread got? Why do you think no one else wanted to post on here...because they all agreed with you? Or because it was turning into a crap-show and they didn't want to end up covered in crap?
> 
> I've never seen that happen to you, but I could have missed it...but if it did, I would find it just as ugly and distasteful as I do when you do it.
> 
> The next time someone says that the people who practice non-monogamy are treated with kid gloves, I will laugh in their face and point them to this thread.


I am a fallible human, far from perfect. I am sorry if someone was disrespected.

I want to point out something though. Did you notice the interaction with almost all those here that has an "alternative" lifestyle or has engaged in a consensual non-monogamous sex life and how it was very respectful? It was really only with @oldshirt that things got off the rails. It isn't his swinger lifestyle alone that brought on that response. It is the fact that he has/had a long history of not respecting the marriage of others. He slept with a dozen different married women that were cheating on their husbands and seems to have an oh well attitude about it. Then, with that background he makes crazy statements like I wouldn't trust the monogamous husband of 20+ years around his wife. I found it insulting. I will admit, a lot was directed at him that could be viewed as insulting too. But this is a site about marriage and all of that past history he has is anti-marriage. An unrepentant POSOM is going to get crapped on.

I've really been just trying to understand why everyone engaged in ENM is hiding it. Based on this thread I can understand why you wouldn't scream it from a rooftop to everyone, but why not adult kids? 

That's got me thinking. Maybe it is a relationship vs. sex act thing. I share information about my relationship (monogamous marriage) with my kids. They know that's what our relationship is, and they are more than old enough to know that it entails sex. I believe marriage is a sexual relationship, but that is another discussion entirely. I share nothing about sex acts. Maybe it is an incorrect assumption, I would think a couple in an ENM relationship would also have children that know what makes up their parent's relationship. Or do they consider that part to just be a sex act, in which case I wouldn't share it either.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Ah but this is where you and @BigDaddyNY and @LATERILUS79 aren't getting it (I know you really do get it, you just don't like it or approve of it) But we DO share our values with our kids. Our values are love and support and safety and responsibility and mutual respect and compassion etc etc and we impress upon our kids that consenting adults will have to chose their own path in life for what works best for them.
> 
> Everyone's kids are going to ultimately choose their own path in life and will not necessarily follow in their parent's footsteps whether those parents are church virgins or porn stars.
> 
> ...


I got ya, and I didn't see this until I made that last thread. 

I will just let it go at this point, you are right it is getting off onto another topic.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I am a fallible human, far from perfect. I am sorry if someone was disrespected.
> 
> I want to point out something though. Did you notice the interaction with almost all those here that has an "alternative" lifestyle or has engaged in a consensual non-monogamous sex life and how it was very respectful? It was really only with @oldshirt that things got off the rails. It isn't his swinger lifestyle alone that brought on that response. It is the fact that he has/had a long history of not respecting the marriage of others. He slept with a dozen different married women that were cheating on their husbands and seems to have an oh well attitude about it. Then, with that background he makes crazy statements like I wouldn't trust the monogamous husband of 20+ years around his wife. I found it insulting. I will admit, a lot was directed at him that could be viewed as insulting too. But this is a site about marriage and all of that past history he has is anti-marriage. An unrepentant POSOM is going to get crapped on.
> 
> ...


What I saw was a whole lot of projection and assumption and WILLFUL misunderstanding, and then justification to "crap on" someone whom others believed were below them morally and not repentant enough.

People who do that don't reveal anything about their target's character...they reveal weaknesses in their own (in MY opinion).

Yeah, that happens. But I don't respect the people who do it.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Just got done reading this thread......I need a shower now.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

This thread is now closed.


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