# When is Jealousy Normal... When is 'Change' Too Much?



## Logan 3

Hey Guys,

I've been on the fence for a while, trying to learn as much as possible from the forum, while deciding if I should ask public questions about my relationship here. After reading so many great posts, though, I still haven't got a clear perspective on my own marriage. So I will go ahead and describe the situation, and hope for your honest feedback. 

The basics: I'm 46, W is 44. 2 kids, both in high school. Son has a learning disability, he's a little behind. I work as an engineer, W is in healthcare. We've known each other since high school, but started dating in college. It's been a wonderful 19 years, even if the last year hasn't been my favorite. W and I are both friendly, hardworking people. We generally like our jobs and have a good circle of friends. The kids take priority. We're very proud. I don't care if it's a cliche, W and I are also best friends. Neither of us dated many other people, but I wouldn't be happier with anyone else.

_So what's the problem?
_
Over a year ago, W had her hours cut back at work. This happened without warning, and she took it badly. There were a couple months of listless, unsocial behavior. Mild depression, maybe. I was worried. Fortunately, W took steps to climb out of the hole. She experimented with going to the gym, which was a first. She also used the time away from work to take local classes - cooking, computers, etc. Finally, she got into reading a number of self-help books, most of them dealing with "the Secret" and Law of Attraction. 

_Problem solved?
_
This is where my confusion starts. W is clearly happier now. My question is: could her happiness be a threat to our marraige? 

The most obvious change in W comes from working out, which she's kept doing regularly. W dropped 40 lbs. That's a big development, since she was never in great shape, even when we were young. As a man, I do get certain benefits out of the situation. I'm more physically attracted to her, and more inclined to plan "romantic" evenings. Our love life has always been affectionate, but not necessarily hot. I think it's good to have a little more chemistry in the mix. There's an emotional benefit for her, too. W is normally a gregarious person. Over the last year, though, she's also become confident and assertive, which are new qualities for her. These days, W makes the most of her slim figure by wearing nicer clothes. Fashion wasn't a priority in the past, but now she enjoys putting together nice outfits - both for work, as well as casually.

A lot of the outfits, in fact, are based on her workouts at the gym. First, W was going to Yoga. Then Pilates. Now Zumba. At this point, I've kind of lost track. I just know her classes require Lululemon-type clothing, which has led to wearing yoga pants and tank tops outside the gym, too. W will wear sweatpants to Starbucks, the supermarket, and various places where working out isn't even a possibility. For those who don't know, the selling point of Lycra gym clothes is they tend to really flatter a woman's rear end and legs. After losing weight, W excels in both departments. I'm not necessarily complaining, it's just an odd situation to wrap my head around.

Overall, you could say W's lifestyle changes mainly revolve around health and personal fitness. She doesn't seem overly interest in makeup, jewelery, handbags, or material things. I've only noticed a few shoes with taller heels or fancier pairs of underwear. That might not even count, since she hardly ever wears those. W did get a haircut over the holidays - shorter, sportier, a few blonde highlights. But otherwise, her focus is on eating well, going to the spa, exercising, stretching, moisturizing, doing whatever it takes to feel healthy. On this side of 40, it's hard to blame W for wanting to feel as youthful as possible. My only concern is that her new lifestyle could be interfering with her naturally beautiful personality. 

Here's where I start to sound crazy... I'm worried there might be a dark side to some of these books, classes and philosophies that claim to be about self-help. For example, the motivational phrases W has started using, expressions like:

_"Happiness is a choice"_ or _"We make our own destiny"_

Do they sound positive? Yeah. Are they kind of true? Sure. But there can be a judgmental aspect to them, as well. Like when W tells me "we can do anything we put our minds to", the underlying message is that I'm not already doing enough, or that I could somehow be "better". 

A more serious problem involves our kids. Since they were born, W has been an exceptional mother. Her caring personality translates easily to parenting. As I mentioned before, my son has difficulties at school, so I'm grateful W can be so attentive with the kids. Lately, though, I've noticed her "positive" thinking starting to conflict with her regular parenting style. Other self-help phrases that apply to this situation include:

_"I need to make myself a priority"_ and _"I'm no good to anyone else if I can't take care of myself"_

The result of such attitudes, apparently, is that W now has less time to do little activities our kids used to depend on her for. My job is pretty rigorous, but we've always managed to divide our parenting duties equally. Now it feels like I'm taking on more responsibilities at home, while W is putting in fewer hours at work. Her logic: W has more energy when she spends time exercising, going to the spa, seeing friends, etc. Afterwards, she can be a more invested, effective parent. Make sense? I'm not sure it does. My daughter is trying to be understanding about it. My son, who's accustomed to more support from W, is getting confused.

A less drastic change in W's lifestyle, meanwhile, that still feels weird, involves stuff like music, iPods, computers, etc. It would be a stretch to call either me or W "hip". My favorite band is U2. Despite working in a technical field, I don't use Facebook. Until recently, W was no more sophisticated in this regard than me. Gradually, though, she's developed interests that include new music, gossip sites, Facebook, and so on. Even if it seems harmless, I feel excluded when W sings along to some band I don't know, or checks funny messages on Facebook. Truthfully, just using her iPhone has become a sore point for me. W didn't get a cell phone until 2007, but she will frequently zone out of our conversations now to type on her iPhone. I know everybody uses one these days, but I can't help feeling snubbed at moments like that.

W has also made new friends at her classes. From what I hear, they're women our age who have their own husbands and families. Outside of class, W has begun to socialize with them. W might watch a movie with one of them over the weekend, or they'll grab a coffee or drink together. Because they aren't in our usual circle of college friends or married couples, it's hard to just invite myself along. I probably wouldn't enjoy drinking coffee with married women and discussing Jennifer Aniston movies, anyway. But I do feel badly about not hanging out with W as much.

At the same time, there's no sign of W behaving inappropriately. She always comes home at the end of the night, except when she has to leave town for work, or for baby showers, etc. If W does come back late after getting a drink, she'll take a shower before climbing into bed. I'm usually asleep by then, so there's no way I can notice anything incriminating. My son has complained W's jacket smelled like smoke or wine the next morning. I explained that's what happens when you go to a place where they serve alcohol. He wasn't too reassured. 

Ultimately, I can't tell if W is actually doing anything to harm our M, or if I'm just being paranoid. Another example: I feel increasingly uncomfortable when W talks to people in public, especially males. In reality, W has always been amiable and talkative. It's nothing new for her to get into chats with waiters, salespeople, strangers in lineups, people we ask for directions, etc. The difference, frankly, is that I suspect the men she's talking to now are coming at the conversation from a different angle.

These days, W looks like a fit, attractive woman. I know what kind of head space that puts a man into - almost automatically - even if he's not intending to do anything wrong. And it's not her fault, either. She isn't dressing in a provocative, attention-seeking way. There's no lipstick, eyelashes, or short skirts here. She's just wearing nice clothes that happen to flatter her skinnier figure. It can't be helped. W is thin now, but she's stayed big chested. No one paid much attention to W's curves when she was heavier, or wore JC Penny clothes. Now, I assume guys will check her out, even if she doesn't wear pushup bras, low-cut tops, or anything like that. It's just a result of being in good shape, but it's starting to grate on me.

And that's where I'm at. It's not exactly clear what I should do next. I'm of the opinion that relationships thrive in an open, trusting environment. Also, breathing down W's neck with a lot of prying questions probably won't make her feel more invested in our M. So how do I raise these issues, and not seem petty or controlling? There's no evidence - or even probable grounds - to prove that W's done anything wrong. So what can I say to express my concerns, without accusing her, or backing her into a corner? Are there any subtle, respectful lines of questioning I can get into, that won't sound nosy or presumptuous?

To put our relationship in context again, W is still the same lovely woman I married more than 60% of the time. It's only occasional moments, when she says or does something out of character, that leave a bad taste in my mouth. Please let me know what you think. Any feedback will be appreciated, since I'm honestly struggling here.

Thanks in advance,

Logan


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## thatbpguy

Interesting post.

Clearly your wife has "rediscovered" herself. She is seeing he as more of a woman than wife & mother.

This would not be concerning except that she is leaving you behind in her self discovery. That may be as much your fault as it is hers.

I will suggest two things.

First, set her down and have a real heart to heart talk. That you've lost sight of her and want her to include you in her new life. You will have to meet her halfway and do some changing yourself- which may not be easy. But also be honest and tell her the kids feel they are losing their mother as well. If it goes there, suggest counseling but I don't like that approach on a first talk. But above all else, be open, honest and share your concerns without getting into fights. Communicate with her.

Second, now is the time to start tracking her. Place programs on her phone and computer so you can monitor things if she is getting out of control. You may even need to place a couple of VAR's. I am not trying to feed paranoia or state she is betraying you, but if she is heading that direction, better to find out now and take corrective action than later.


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## Regga

Sounds like your wife is in a mid-life crisis and you two need to date more. 
How do you feel about you? Are you up for her challenge? She's already changed and I doubt she'll revert to her old self. 
How can you help her to feel a little more jealous of you without making your marriage rough? Work-out (I personally hate), eat better, sleep better, do things with friends, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Basic question: are you or the marriage a priority to you wife in her new mode? If not then you do need to be worried because we naturally tend to increase our loyalty to things that are a priority to us, and diminish and eliminated those things which aren't a priority.

It sounds very much like your wife's priority is herself and her sinful circle which does not include you. That is a bad formula.


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## Machiavelli

Logan, it's late and i have an early morning, so I will be back tomorrow night, but I believe your wife is elevating her self worth and self fulfillment to dangerous levels. Getting fit equals getting attractive; it's the way we are wired. I'm in the business and that's what happens when people get fit. I'm much more concerned about the "Eat, Pray, Love" BS swirling around in her head. That and her cabal of most likely "toxic friends." I'm a little concerned about the shower after GNOs, but the GNOs are extremely troubling. 

Like I say, I'm in the physique training business and usually when women get serious about their body, they've already decided that changes are coming on the man front. Not always, YMMV, but my clients talk.

My advice is to start actively monitoring her, as others have suggested. VAR (velcro it up to the driver's seat bottom) and GPS her car. I disagree with the earlier advice to confront/discuss the issue, at least for the moment. Gather intel for a bit and get serious about figuring out the lay of the land.

How often does she go out on GNO?

Have you tried to get it on with her when she returns from these? If so, what happens?

How often do you have sex?

How often does she initiate?

How often are you yourself approached by other women?


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## Logan 3

Great advice so far, thanks for helping out...



Shaggy said:


> Basic question: are you or the marriage a priority to you wife in her new mode? It sounds very much like your wife's priority is herself and her sinful circle which does not include you.


That’s the question. 2/3rds of the time, she's still the same person. I don’t think her fundamental values have changed, and family is a big part of those values. Also, calling the new friends sinful may be premature. I haven't spent time with them, but there's no reason to assume they're bad people.



Regga said:


> How do you feel about you? Are you up for her challenge? She's already changed and I doubt she'll revert to her old self._Posted via Mobile Device_


Apart from what's happening with W, I've always felt the same, which is pretty good. Despite the economy, I've advanced at work, and self-doubt has never been an issue for me. Ironically, between the two us, W has tended to be the more neurotic one.



Machiavelli said:


> How often does she go out on GNO? Have you tried to get it on with her when she returns from these? If so, what happens?


W doesn’t call them GNOs, so I hadn't thought of them like that. She'll do something social a couple times a week, whether going to a movie, or having a glass of wine.



Machiavelli said:


> How often do you have sex? How often does she initiate?


We make love of a few times a month. The frequency went up this year, due to W's higher energy level and my increased attraction / motivation. I've tended to initiate lately, but she seems more active and stimulated too.



Machiavelli said:


> How often are you yourself approached by other women?


Realistically, I can't remember the last time a woman approached me in way that wasn't just friendly. I don't socialize at bars or clubs, so there's rarely a chance for it to happen.



thatbpguy said:


> now is the time to start tracking her. Place programs on her phone and computer so you can monitor things if she is getting out of control. You may even need to place a couple of VAR's.


Is there any validity to the belief that it’s too soon to start tracking W - putting devices on her phone and her car? I can't help thinking that means treating W like a criminal. Technically, she still hasn't done anything wrong, besides feeling good about herself...

I appreciate the feedback. Trying to be as candid as possible here. Please keep me updated with your questions and thoughts.

Logan


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## nothingtodeclare

Going out with the "girls" several nights a week is a big issue. Taking a shower after seems strange too, but maybe she's done that all along. 
I think you need to hit this on two fronts. Start working out and do some of her new things with her. This includes Facebook, etc... This should be a good thing all around. 

Next, go into covert investigative mode. It is not too early! Hopefully you'll find she is a loving wife. Then you continue working out and being involved in her life.


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## Machiavelli

Logan 3 said:


> W doesn’t call them GNOs, so I hadn't thought of them like that. She'll do something social a couple times a week, whether going to a movie, or having a glass of wine.


Two nights a week, away from the family doing her own thing with a new circle of friends. Do you know exactly where she goes for her wine? Do you discuss the movie with her later? Do you know her friends? Are they married or single? If married are they in solid marriages? Toxic friends eventually make your wife toxic and she's somewhat down the road, already. She's built a whole new social network for about half her time that doesn't include you.

What's the latest she's ever come in?

How many nights weekly are you out alone or with friends doing your thing?



Logan 3 said:


> We make love of a few times a month. The frequency went up this year, due to W's higher energy level and my increased attraction / motivation. I've tended to initiate lately, but she seems more active and stimulated too.


A few times a month isn't good. I'm ten years older than you and I've got prostate cancer and do better than that, but in the past, when I was a fat ass with a big gut for a few years, our frequency was even less than yours. Not good for the marriage to be that infrequent. If you don't have a medical condition like ED or low T, you need to get that number up.



Logan 3 said:


> Realistically, I can't remember the last time a woman approached me in way that wasn't just friendly. I don't socialize at bars or clubs, so there's rarely a chance for it to happen.


I don't either, but I still get the eye in restaurants and have women approach me at the grocery store and try to start up conversations with me.

How tall are you and what do you weigh? Waistband size? What kind of workout program are you on?

I'll tell you something that most guys never figure out: While most men are attracted to most women, most women are NOT attracted to most men. In fact, women rated 2/3 of the men on one popular dating site as being "below average" in appearance. Truly, most women are only sexually attracted to the "top 20% of men." This is the human version of the Pareto Principle in reproduction (80/20 rule). If it's true that 80% of women are marrying who they're with because they can't level up (female hypergamy), it stands to reason that if a woman increases her "sex rank" to where she's attracting more attractive men than the one she's with, she won't be with him for long. 

This is why about 85% of women who get gastric bypass surgery are divorced in 3 years. Read some of these comments from these women. Some aren't even exactly sure why they're divorcing and others now understand that they never wanted their husband in the first place. They're getting hit on by much higher ranking males than their H, and eventually they crumble. The same happens with my clients. They typically get hit on by guys 20 years younger.

Another thing is that women are sexual herd animals. We know women are mostly attracted to the same 20% of men. When they are out together on GNO they check out men and decide by consensus who is hot and who is not. Not just the men in view, but also the husbands at home, usually to the husband's detriment. Eventually, this creates a "go girl" vortex, that drags the husband's sex rank, as perceived by the wife, and the marriage to the bottom.

Speaking of "sex rank" here's a Market Value test for men you should take. It's pitched at single guys, but you should still be aiming to interact this way with your wife.



Logan 3 said:


> Is there any validity to the belief that it’s too soon to start tracking W - putting devices on her phone and her car? I can't help thinking that means treating W like a criminal. Technically, she still hasn't done anything wrong, besides feeling good about herself...


We don't wait until a war starts to start surveillance of our potential adversaries when they begin to behave differently from previous, do we? No, we want to find out what's up. It's time to find out. Has your wife read any books lately?

If you don't want to do that, you can launch countermeasures of your own by changing yourself. Upgrade your wardrobe to that of a 35 year old guy, two rungs above you on the economic ladder. Get a hot car, or even better a motorcycle (a chopper is best). Change your hairstyle to something badass and off the wall from what you usually do. Get more serious about packing on muscle. Start up in a martial art or combat pistol shooting. Start taking your wife over the back of the sofa instead of "making love" as you put it.


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## Machiavelli

I forgot to say, you need to start going out. Have your motorcycle jacket and boots on and head for the door while she's getting ready for GNO. Say, "I'm going out, don't wait up." If she says "where?", just say "I'll know when I get there. Want to come?" If not, fine. Then roar off on your Harley.


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## TRy

Logan 3 said:


> If W does come back late after getting a drink, she'll take a shower before climbing into bed. I'm usually asleep by then, so there's no way I can notice anything incriminating.


 This line concerns me. She is out late drinking, comes home after you are asleep, and then takes a shower. Sorry but this is exactly what a woman that is having sex with another man does. Her spending less time with you and more time with new friends that you do not know, only adds to the pattern. It is time to discuss your marraige and acceptable martial boundaries with her; i.e. no staying out late or going to bars without you. 

Also, ask her if your happiness is a priority with her the same way that her happiness is a priority with you. Tell her that you will not continue to make someone a priority in your life that does not make you a priority; tell her that she cannot have it both ways any longer.


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## awake1

Machiavelli hit the nail on the head. 

As for her cheating or acting strange I havent been here long, but ive been here long enough to know that when you think something is up, it almost certainly is. Whether it's outright cheating or shes looking to "trade up".

Do not think she'll act or be rational. In my experience once the hormones take hold they act like 20 year old drug addicts. She will do and say things and wont even know why.


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## calmwinds

OK boys, whoa a minute. While things could still go either way, I will tell you that women in this age group DO, after YEARS of putting husband/kids/the dog first, realize they have done nothing for themselves. The books she is reading are common among the yoga studio types (I teach advanced yoga, and have read them, and if she continues she may begin reading Eastern philosophy as well). 

As for the showering when she comes back from having her "glass of wine" which may indicate one or two glasses with her friends, but seems to be interpreted here as bar-hopping, perhaps she simply doesn't wish to go to bed with her hair smelling of smoke from the bar?

The best thing to do is watch. As I have read so many times here...trust but verify.

As a BS myself, I'm not sticking up for her if there is something there, HOWEVER, I have had many students in this age range who simply are exhausted from years of caring for everyone but themselves.

VAR the car if you're concerned. Check everything. Check the cell bill. Go to yoga class and the gym with her (you may not be able to keep up with zumba). Or at least suggest it. If she balks at the suggestion you may have something to worry about. You may find she's delighted that you're interested in something SHE likes for a change.


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## Cubby

TRy said:


> This line concerns me. She is out late drinking, comes home after you are asleep, and then takes a shower. Sorry but this is exactly what a woman that is having sex with another man does. Her spending less time with you and more time with new friends that you do not know, only adds to the pattern. It is time to discuss your marraige and acceptable martial boundaries with her; i.e. no staying out late or going to bars without you.
> 
> Also, ask her if your happiness is a priority with her the same way that her happiness is a priority with you. Tell her that you will not continue to make someone a priority in your life that does not make you a priority; tell her that she cannot have it both ways any longer.


Yes, taking a shower immediately after coming home is one of those classic cheater signs, along with all the time spent out with 'friends.' I don't think I would discuss boundaries quite yet. First I'd investigate (phone records, emails, texts, maybe VAR) to really find out what's going on. Investigating (quietly) is fairly easy to do. There's no reason Logan shouldn't be doing that now. I'm afraid if he discussed his concerns now before finding more answers, she'll take her behavior deeper underground. That is, assuming there's something inappropriate going on.


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## NatureDave

Logan,

I know at this point you find tracking your wife distasteful.

However, here is a simple thing you can do that is not to invasive. Go online to her phone account or simply find last month's bill. 

Is there a number that she texts or calls dozen of times a day? That's usually a smoking gun. If there is, find out who that number belongs to.

Texting and talking to a friend of the opposite sex all during the day and evening is NOT appropriate behavior. If you find something like this, you know your hunch was correct. And we know that you have that gut feeling because you found this website and posted here.


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## Shamwow

She has an iPhone, so after checking her cell bill if you find numbers you're unaware of or seem suspicious, you can see her actual texts by accessing the backup file on the computer she syncs her phone with. This includes deleted texts. It's possible she could be chatting with people via third party apps that leave no trail...if that's the case you're out of luck unless you install spyware on her phone. I understand you don't want to dig into her "private" life on paranoia alone, but the feelings you're describing sound like what I felt, and once I finally dug into the details I found things I would never have imagined. Many here have.

VAR in car is good, check those text logs, and do your best to not show yourself as concerned and needy. Do your own thing and don't hang on her...her new friends and potential male suitors aren't doing that, and you'll seem clingy. 

Work out, feel more confident and try to taking your wife most of the time instead of a weekly "feel like getting frisky?". How you act now determines how your next months and years are going to play out. Good luck.

I chose trap shooting over the motorcycle. Take your pick. Shake things up and don't try to make things "the way the used to be". Make them the way you want them. Talk about your relationship when she brings it up only...otherwise do your own thing and start steeling yourself for possible big changes. One person changing in a relationship is bad...you need to keep up or outdo her. If she isn't on board, you were hosed to begin with.

Good luck sir.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandc

It's highly probably that she is just learning to enjoy herself after making kids and career a focus for so many years. However, she's looking good now after how many years? She is having men hit on her. Does she know how to deal with that? Does she have good boundaries? Two nights a week with girlfriends, how many nights a week does she go out with you?

I can't tell you how many threads started here in the CWI section with the husband having a "gut feeling" that something just wasn't right. What does your gut tell you? Most of those husbands found out that their gut was right. I hope for your family's sake that your gut is wrong. But you won't know unless you investigate.

In the mean time, start asking her out. Take her dancing. Make love to her under the stars. Rock her world. Give her something to talk about with those friends of hers.


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## dubBruin

*On the surveillance end...*
I would also suggest checking her text messages, and if she deletes them, her iphone backup. You wouldn't believe how many innocent wives have hidden the truth this way.

Check her phone bill as well. How often is she calling unknown numbers? texting? Remember with an iphone, many of the texts are considered data and do not show up on a cell phone bill.

I agree with a VAR. It'll tell you if shes giving rides home with anyone she shouldn't be on her GNOs.

*On the marriage side...*
Talk to her. Let her know you're feeling left out. But don't do it in a woe is me type of way. Tell her you want to get involved in some of her new hobbies. Join Facebook and look up lots of old friends. Join a class with her (with her permission).

Avoid looking like the old man who won't change his ways, while she progresses and improves.

But survey everything while doing this.


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## doubletrouble

Facebook is a good way to get hold of friends you haven't known for years (I meant that just the way I wrote it). But be wary of the "high school" group. Social media can be dangerous. 

I'd want to see who SHE is talking to rather than set up my own page. Although she should be willing to post "married to [your name]" on her profile.


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## phillybeffandswiss

nothingtodeclare said:


> Going out with the "girls" several nights a week is a big issue. Taking a shower after seems strange too, but maybe she's done that all along.


This and since no one touched it, your child wasn't reassured with your answer about wine and smoke. 

My kids, even teens, pick up on poor social clues. I want to be positive, but the multiple nights a week is young adult and teen socializing. 

Even if it is innocent, that needs to be curtailed PERIOD.


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## Chaparral

doubletrouble said:


> Facebook is a good way to get hold of friends you haven't known for years (I meant that just the way I wrote it). But be wary of the "high school" group. Social media can be dangerous.
> 
> I'd want to see who SHE is talking to rather than set up my own page. Although she should be willing to post "married to [your name]" on her profile.


She can't list him as her husband unless he is also on facebook.

How does your wife treat her phone? Does she leave it laying around? Is it glued to her hip/hand?


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## Chaparral

If you are worried at all, keylog the computer and check phone/text usage for certain numbers with unusually high traffic.


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## Logan 3

Thanks everyone,

From the suggestions so far, I feel happiest about the idea of working out, sprucing myself up and becoming a more dynamic, confident person. That will be productive for me, and not involve doing anything negative towards W. I still can't see going so far as riding a motorcycle or shooting rifles, though!

I'm still uncertain about the other ideas... talking to W about "boundaries" or snooping on her with digital equipment. As an engineer, I could probably find out how to crack her phone. My problem is the ethical decision to go ahead and spy. Your consensus seems to be that I should investigate her phone and internet habits, as a first resort, before bringing up any marriage concerns with her. If most people here believe that's the wisest option, I'll try bringing myself around to doing it.



doubletrouble said:


> Facebook is a good way to get hold of friends you haven't known for years (I meant that just the way I wrote it). But be wary of the "high school" group. Social media can be dangerous.


Do you mean actual people from high school, or just the concept of a teenage "clique" mentality? When I brought up the idea of going on Facebook myself, W just laughed. She acted like it was surprising I'd want to do something so out of character and girly.



sandc said:


> It's highly probably that she is just learning to enjoy herself after making kids and career a focus for so many years. However, she's looking good now after how many years? She is having men hit on her. Does she know how to deal with that? Does she have good boundaries? Two nights a week with girlfriends, how many nights a week does she go out with you?


I'm not sure if these questions are rhetorical  Our marriage so far indicates W has very good boundaries about honesty, fairness, loyalty and respect. Blatant flirting from other guys is new, but I think her core values would allow her to shut them down easily. We have frequent "movie nights" at home, which I put effort into making as nice as possible. Going to restaurants happens about once per month. Going to a concert or parties with friends happens less often, a few times a year.



Machiavelli said:


> Do you know exactly where she goes for her wine? Do you discuss the movie with her later? Do you know her friends? Are they married or single? If married are they in solid marriages?


One place she mentioned is a local restaurant, with a nice lounge / bar section inside. I doubt they'd go to anywhere more intense, since the point is to meet up, talk and relax. I haven't quizzed W about the content of the movies, except when I'm genuinely interested in the story. The other women sound married with kids. I don't know how secure their marriages are... maybe the husbands just accept them being more social people?



Machiavelli said:


> What's the latest she's ever come in? How many nights weekly are you out alone or with friends doing your thing?


The latest I've woken up when she came in was 1 - 1:30. My friends have a poker tournament about 10 times a year. We don't regularly drink at bars. I take my son to sporting events a couple times a month, depending on the season.



Machiavelli said:


> How tall are you and what do you weigh? Waistband size? What kind of workout program are you on?


I'm 5'11, 190 lbs. That might sound better than it is. I'm slightly built and used to pride myself on having a 30" waist. Now it’s more like 34", so you can guess the extra weight isn't muscle.



nothingtodeclare said:


> Going out with the "girls" several nights a week is a big issue. Taking a shower after seems strange too, but maybe she's done that all along.


Several people have keyed into the shower thing. I should point out W is normally a neat, hygienic person. Washing up when she comes back from a smokey place - after already spending the day at work - doesn't seem unusual. I also can't picture their "nights out" being overly wild. W wasn't even a big dancer in college, doesn't like crowds, and would probably look like a deer in headlights if you stuck in her in the middle of a nightclub.

It's starting to look weird that I'm on the computer so much tonight. I'll have to go now and answer more questions later. Thanks again, everyone

Logan


----------



## Chaparral

chapparal said:


> She can't list him as her husband unless he is also on facebook.
> 
> How does your wife treat her phone? Does she leave it laying around? Is it glued to her hip/hand?


This is very important. How does she handle her phone?

Do you have access to her phone ,computer, email etc.? It is very important to give us the info we ask for.

Shower after gnos.
Facebook
New interest in getting fit
Gnos
Less interst in kids
Reading selection
The biggest red flag is that you are here. Once a poster shows up here, the odds their partner is unbelievably high.


----------



## Chaparral

From your last post, it doesn't appear that you still romance and date your wife.


----------



## Machiavelli

Logan, I'm glad you're on board for being the best you can be. No matter how it works out, with that attitude you'll come up in clover. While you're staking out your wife's GNOs, you need to read this book. It's a quick and extremely enlightening read. It's all about how women respond to their husbands and other men and how to keep your wife in the marriage and hot for you over the long haul. It's the best $10 you'll ever spend.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Logan 3 said:


> Thanks everyone,
> 
> From the suggestions so far, I feel happiest about the idea of working out, sprucing myself up and becoming a more dynamic, confident person. That will be productive for me, and not involve doing anything negative towards W. I still can't see going so far as riding a motorcycle or shooting rifles, though!
> 
> I'm still uncertain about the other ideas... talking to W about "boundaries" or snooping on her with digital equipment. As an engineer, I could probably find out how to crack her phone. My problem is the ethical decision to go ahead and spy. Your consensus seems to be that I should investigate her phone and internet habits, as a first resort, before bringing up any marriage concerns with her. If most people here believe that's the wisest option, I'll try bringing myself around to doing it.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean actual people from high school, or just the concept of a teenage "clique" mentality? When I brought up the idea of going on Facebook myself, W just laughed. She acted like it was surprising I'd want to do something so out of character and girly.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if these questions are rhetorical  Our marriage so far indicates W has very good boundaries about honesty, fairness, loyalty and respect. Blatant flirting from other guys is new, but I think her core values would allow her to shut them down easily. We have frequent "movie nights" at home, which I put effort into making as nice as possible. Going to restaurants happens about once per month. Going to a concert or parties with friends happens less often, a few times a year.
> 
> 
> 
> One place she mentioned is a local restaurant, with a nice lounge / bar section inside. I doubt they'd go to anywhere more intense, since the point is to meet up, talk and relax. I haven't quizzed W about the content of the movies, except when I'm genuinely interested in the story. The other women sound married with kids. I don't know how secure their marriages are... maybe the husbands just accept them being more social people?
> 
> 
> 
> The latest I've woken up when she came in was 1 - 1:30. My friends have a poker tournament about 10 times a year. We don't regularly drink at bars. I take my son to sporting events a couple times a month, depending on the season.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm 5'11, 190 lbs. That might sound better than it is. I'm slightly built and used to pride myself on having a 30" waist. Now it’s more like 34", so you can guess the extra weight isn't muscle.
> 
> 
> 
> Several people have keyed into the shower thing. I should point out W is normally a neat, hygienic person. Washing up when she comes back from a smokey place - after already spending the day at work - doesn't seem unusual. I also can't picture their "nights out" being overly wild. W wasn't even a big dancer in college, doesn't like crowds, and would probably look like a deer in headlights if you stuck in her in the middle of a nightclub.
> 
> It's starting to look weird that I'm on the computer so much tonight. I'll have to go now and answer more questions later. Thanks again, everyone
> 
> Logan


I get two things out of this post:
Your wife has YOU convinced this is a jealousy issue.
You are scared to talk with your wife.

I don't say that to be mean, but:


> I'm still uncertain about the other ideas... talking to W about "boundaries"


Really? I talked to my wife about them before, during and after we were married. Then when she had her EA, I enforced and added boundaries, so it was CLEAR where the lines exist and what will send her out of the door.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I get two things out of this post:
> Your wife has YOU convinced this is a jealousy issue.
> You are scared to talk with your wife.
> 
> I don't say that to be mean, but:
> Really? I talked to my wife about them before, during and after we were married. Then when she had her EA, I enforced and added boundaries, so it was CLEAR where the lines exist and what will send her out of the door.


Logan 3, we don't know if your wife is being unfaithful in any way(EA, PA, or both), but there are telling signs that it is a possiblity.

Why don't you just check her phone history for excessive texting/calls to strange phone numbers? If she uses a PC at home, check the internet history on that and see what's in the email trash bin and check the sent folder.

If you don't find anything unusual, great. If you do find something that doesn't seem right, then you can think about your next move.

IF you do find something questionable, DON'T QUESTION HER ABOUT IT. If she is up to something suspicious and she knows that you suspect something, it will make it much harder for you to find out any thing else.

You already have that "gut feeling" that something is amiss with your wife. These feeling are usually a good indicator that there's a reel problem. You don't know exactly what that problem is yet. If it is indeed that she's in contact with another man, talking, texting, or what ever, time is not on your side. These relationships can go from two friends just chatting to an affair overnight.

Hopefully the things that you've noticed are just part of the new her she has become and you can start working on your relationship knowing there aren't any outside negative influences working against your marriage. This would obviously be what we all hope for.


----------



## warlock07

Logan 3 said:


> Thanks everyone,
> 
> I'm still uncertain about the other ideas... talking to W about "boundaries" or snooping on her with digital equipment. As an engineer, I could probably find out how to crack her phone. My problem is the ethical decision to go ahead and spy. Your consensus seems to be that I should investigate her phone and internet habits, as a first resort, before bringing up any marriage concerns with her. If most people here believe that's the wisest option, I'll try bringing myself around to doing it.
> 
> 
> Logan



Actually that is a fair question. She has shown you no reason for you to suspect her. And if she finds out, it will severely damage the relationship between the two of you. But we have many spouses regret no investigating further when their gut started warning them. What is more alarming is that you have no idea where she is going, who she is friends with. People sometimes get caught up in situations. 

Here is the deal. Check her phone records. If you can check her messages do that too.(don't forget apps like imessage ). if you can retrieve deleted messages, retrieve them. Get a keylogger on her computer and obtain her passwords for email and facebook. yes, go through her messages. Huge breach of privacy but the lesser of evils in this situation.

If you cannot find anything, remove the loggers and start improving yourself and working on other aspects of marriage . Maybe start some counseling(or discussions) because you also seem to have some resentment for the extra burden (both financially and responsibilities at home).


----------



## See_Listen_Love

> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by Machiavelli View Post
> How often do you have sex? How often does she initiate?
> 
> 
> 
> *We make love of a few times a month*. The frequency went up this year, due to W's higher energy level and my increased attraction / motivation. I've tended to initiate lately, but she seems more active and stimulated too.
Click to expand...

Your first post did give the possibiltiy of some vague red flags,

But *this 'a few times a month' * is a very big red flag.

This alone is a big reason to monitor, together with the 'nights out' (what are these exactly?) I see dark clouds and danger on the horizon.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Also the showering after coming home late at night is a bit worrying to me....


----------



## Logan 3

Regga said:


> Sounds like your wife is in a mid-life crisis and you two need to date more.
> How do you feel about you? Are you up for her challenge?





chapparal said:


> From your last post, it doesn't appear that you still romance and date your wife.


I'm curious what it means to "date" my wife? I do plan fun activities, and we typically go out a couple times a month. For married people with kids, that's not too bad. I'm not a sedentary person. If you asked our friends, they probably would've said W was more of the homebody. As a positive personal project, though, I don't mind increasing my own activity level. I'm already considering getting back into racquetball... buying new equipment and everything.



Machiavelli said:


> Logan, I'm glad you're on board for being the best you can be. No matter how it works out, with that attitude you'll come up in clover. While you're staking out your wife's GNOs, you need to read this book.


I will definitely research this, and may buy it. I don't know if acting like a "tough guy" is the best way to strengthen connections with my particular W, but I'll assume you have good reasons to suggest it.



chapparal said:


> She can't list him as her husband unless he is also on facebook. How does your wife treat her phone? Does she leave it laying around? Is it glued to her hip/hand?


I hadn't thought of it as "guarding" the phone. I assumed it was hers, so she would naturally hold onto it. The problem has been taking it out during our conversations lately, or while we're trying to watch a movie at home. I can tell you she's never asked me to grab the phone and randomly look up the weather, or check an address or number for her. I'll pay more attention to whether she leaves it lying around, out in the open.



calmwinds said:


> OK boys, whoa a minute. While things could still go either way, I will tell you that women in this age group DO, after YEARS of putting husband/kids/the dog first, realize they have done nothing for themselves. The books she is reading are common among the yoga studio types (I teach advanced yoga, and have read them, and if she continues she may begin reading Eastern philosophy as well).


I'm glad you can confirm there's a particular culture and philosophy surrounding this yoga lifestyle. In many ways, it brought W back to life. But she rarely talks about it in an inclusive way. Your idea of coming along to her classes, for example, would be hard to suggest. W gives off the vibe that her activities at the gym are complicated and demanding. She will make an effort to talk about them in brief, simplified terms… like a businessman who can't get into the intricacies of finance, when telling W about his day.



awake1 said:


> Do not think she'll act or be rational. In my experience once the hormones take hold they act like 20 year old drug addicts. She will do and say things and wont even know why.


I can't see my W going that far off the rails. Even this yoga / Eastern philosophy stuff seems pretty grounded, in its own way. Maybe the worst case scenario would be her turning into the hippie woman from Dharma & Greg . W isn't a "fast lane" type of person, and I expect the rational part of her personality will never fully disappear.



warlock07 said:


> Actually that is a fair question. She has shown you no reason for you to suspect her. And if she finds out, it will severely damage the relationship between the two of you.


Thanks for seeing my point of view. Based on the responses here, I'm going to try making myself look at her phone bill. It goes against my principles of loyalty and honesty, but I will do it if it's truly in the best interests of my family.

Logan


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

See_Listen_Love said:


> Also the showering after coming home late at night is a bit worrying to me....


Yeah, this one really got every ones attention. This OP sounds like the typical "nice guy", so I doubt he'd ever do what I'm about to suggest.

The next time she comes home from going out and tries to hit the shower before going to bed, cut her off at the past. Better yet, don't let her get near the shower. Make sure you're near the door that she comes through when she get's home.

Start holding her and kissing her passionately right when she walks in the door. Make her come to the bedroom with you and tell her you want to make mad passionate love her, RIGHT NOW. 

If she is messing around, there is no way that she's going to let you near her you know what.

Best case, she's surprised and shocked that you so strongly want to make love to her, give in to you and you both... Be on your best game for this, you want to show her that you can be a take charge kind of guy and do everything possible to satisfy her when you make love. You don't know if she has strayed, but make love like you're reclaiming what you once had and want for the rest of your life. 

Worst case, she will out right refuse and take the shower. You'll be left wondering what's going on, but hey, you're already wondering now, aren't you.


----------



## The Middleman

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Worst case, she will out right refuse and take the shower. You'll be left wondering what's going on, but hey, you're already wondering now, aren't you.


At that point there is no more wondering. This is as close to proof positive as you can get.


----------



## weightlifter

Lots of good stuff lets make your plan.

1) DO NOT DO EARLY CONFRONTS!!!!!!!!!!! Just ask RDMU what happens on a half assed confront. 6 weeks of MISERY to find a full blown affair. Had he not confronted early she would not have gone underground and made it that much harder to detect. It took him 6 weeks to get his evidence court worthy. He came here with only two red flags. The second confront, once he had his ducks in a row, he cracked her in a minute.
2) Buy a SONY Var ICDPX312 for 50 bucks at Best Buy. Worth every extra penny vs cheaper ones. attach heavy duty velcro to it and put underneath her seat. MAKE SURE IT WILL NOT SHAKE LOOSE!!!! 
3) If you share cell service look at the bill. Do you see a TON of texts to a strange number?
4) Check browser history
5) If she leaves FB up, look at her conversations with people. Look out for men disguised as women. Usually they are fake FB accounts made by the men for cheating. They can usually be shown from real accounts by having very few "friends"
6) Erase the browser history of you being here.

You might find nothing. If you are here... Im thinking you are starting to go into denial mode. The gut check here for affairs with similar situations is hideously high.

I would back off hacking the phone unless you find unknown numbers or texts going to same.

Im hoping nothing comes up.

BTW. If you VAR the car, and if you hear a man get in your wifes car... STOP LISTENING and have a truly trusted friend finish listening and give you the heads up what they heard. Hearing your wife moaning while another man has his **** inside her is an extra level of damaging beyond knowing she is cheating.


----------



## Remains

Check the stuff you can easily check. For your own peace of mind if nothing else. 

And good point above. ERASE your browsing history of this site! If you are spending chunks of time on the computer she will he wondering about you and start snooping on you! Make sure there are other interesting, plausible looking things you have been looking up in place of this site.

Don't feel bad for being concerned about your marriage. Don't feel bad for wanting to protect your wife and your marriage. Don't feel bad for wanting to protect your wife from predatory men (some can be very, VERY good at getting what they want. Don't underestimate a man's charm on a naive woman). Don't feel bad for wanting to protect your wife from herself. If you find nothing, time to put some solid boundaries in place, talk about boundaries, before you find that it is too late and this time next year you get the 'I love you but I'm not in love with you' speech.

Check up on her! What have you got to lose?


----------



## carmen ohio

Dear Logan 3,

Let me make a few observations about your original post and then offer you some advice.



Logan 3 said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I've been on the fence for a while, trying to learn as much as possible from the forum, while deciding if I should ask public questions about my relationship here. After reading so many great posts, though, I still haven't got a clear perspective on my own marriage. So I will go ahead and describe the situation, and hope for your honest feedback.
> 
> The basics: I'm 46, W is 44. 2 kids, both in high school. Son has a learning disability, he's a little behind. I work as an engineer, W is in healthcare. We've known each other since high school, but started dating in college. It's been a wonderful 19 years, even if the last year hasn't been my favorite. W and I are both friendly, hardworking people. We generally like our jobs and have a good circle of friends. The kids take priority. We're very proud. I don't care if it's a cliche, *W and I are also best friends.  [Take no comfort from this. Most guys who come to TAM say exactly the same thing. Maybe you and your W are still "best friends" and maybe you aren't. Just remember that past behavior is not necessarily an accurate predictor of future behavior.]* Neither of us dated many other people, but I wouldn't be happier with anyone else.
> 
> _So what's the problem?
> _
> Over a year ago, W had her hours cut back at work. This happened without warning, and she took it badly. There were a couple months of listless, unsocial behavior. Mild depression, maybe. I was worried. Fortunately, W took steps to climb out of the hole. She experimented with going to the gym, which was a first. She also used the time away from work to take local classes - cooking, computers, etc. Finally, *she got into reading a number of self-help books, most of them dealing with "the Secret" and Law of Attraction. [This is a huge red flag. Why would a married woman be interested in the "Law of Attraction" unless she was interested in attracting someone?]*
> 
> _Problem solved?
> _
> This is where my confusion starts. W is clearly happier now. My question is: could her happiness be a threat to our marraige?
> 
> *The most obvious change in W comes from working out, which she's kept doing regularly. W dropped 40 lbs.* That's a big development, since she was never in great shape, even when we were young. As a man, I do get certain benefits out of the situation. I'm more physically attracted to her, and more inclined to plan "romantic" evenings. Our love life has always been affectionate, but not necessarily hot. I think it's good to have a little more chemistry in the mix. There's an emotional benefit for her, too. W is normally a gregarious person. *Over the last year, though, she's also become confident and assertive, which are new qualities for her. These days, W makes the most of her slim figure by wearing nicer clothes. Fashion wasn't a priority in the past, but now she enjoys putting together nice outfits - both for work, as well as casually. [Your wife has significantly elevated her sexual attractiveness and, based on what you've told us, you haven't. This is another red flag. Marriages in which one partner is much more sexually attractive than the other tend to be unstable. Your W's increased assertiveness is also a red flag because it means that she is no longer content with being the person she was -- she is reinventing herself. You on the other hand have remained the same. Again, this is likely to destabilize your marriage.]*
> 
> A lot of the outfits, in fact, are based on her workouts at the gym. First, W was going to Yoga. Then Pilates. Now Zumba. At this point, I've kind of lost track. I just know her classes require Lululemon-type clothing, which has led to wearing yoga pants and tank tops outside the gym, too. W will wear sweatpants to Starbucks, the supermarket, and various places where working out isn't even a possibility. For those who don't know, the selling point of Lycra gym clothes is they tend to really flatter a woman's rear end and legs. * After losing weight, W excels in both departments. I'm not necessarily complaining, it's just an odd situation to wrap my head around. [There's nothing odd about this. Your W knows how much more attractive she has become and she wants others to know it too. Another red flag.]*
> 
> Overall, you could say W's lifestyle changes mainly revolve around health and personal fitness. She doesn't seem overly interest in makeup, jewelery, handbags, or material things. I've only noticed a few shoes with taller heels or fancier pairs of underwear. That might not even count, since she hardly ever wears those. W did get a haircut over the holidays - shorter, sportier, a few blonde highlights. But otherwise, her focus is on eating well, going to the spa, exercising, stretching, moisturizing, doing whatever it takes to feel healthy. On this side of 40, it's hard to blame W for wanting to feel as youthful as possible. *My only concern is that her new lifestyle could be interfering with her naturally beautiful personality. [This statement made me laugh because it's total BS. What you are concerned about is that your W is displaying all the signs of a woman who is beginning to consider her options in the mating department. Time to start being honest with yourself.]*
> 
> Here's where I start to sound crazy... I'm worried there might be a dark side to some of these books, classes and philosophies that claim to be about self-help. For example, the motivational phrases W has started using, expressions like:
> 
> _"Happiness is a choice"_ or _"We make our own destiny"_
> 
> Do they sound positive? Yeah. Are they kind of true? Sure. But there can be a judgmental aspect to them, as well. Like when W tells me "we can do anything we put our minds to", the underlying message is that I'm not already doing enough, or that I could somehow be "better".
> 
> A more serious problem involves our kids. Since they were born, W has been an exceptional mother. Her caring personality translates easily to parenting. As I mentioned before, my son has difficulties at school, so I'm grateful W can be so attentive with the kids. Lately, though, I've noticed her "positive" thinking starting to conflict with her regular parenting style. Other self-help phrases that apply to this situation include:
> 
> _"I need to make myself a priority"_ and _"I'm no good to anyone else if I can't take care of myself"_
> 
> *The result of such attitudes, apparently, is that W now has less time to do little activities our kids used to depend on her for.* My job is pretty rigorous, but we've always managed to divide our parenting duties equally. *Now it feels like I'm taking on more responsibilities at home, while W is putting in fewer hours at work.* Her logic: W has more energy when she spends time exercising, going to the spa, seeing friends, etc. Afterwards, she can be a more invested, effective parent. Make sense? I'm not sure it does. *My daughter is trying to be understanding about it. My son, who's accustomed to more support from W, is getting confused. [Again, all bad signs. Your W is no longer putting her family first and, like most beta husbands, your response is to pick up the slack so that she can step out more. Rather pathetic, don't you think?]*
> 
> A less drastic change in W's lifestyle, meanwhile, that still feels weird, involves stuff like music, iPods, computers, etc. It would be a stretch to call either me or W "hip". My favorite band is U2. Despite working in a technical field, I don't use Facebook. Until recently, W was no more sophisticated in this regard than me. *Gradually, though, she's developed interests that include new music, gossip sites, Facebook, and so on. *Even if it seems harmless, I feel excluded when W sings along to some band I don't know, or checks funny messages on Facebook. * Truthfully, just using her iPhone has become a sore point for me. W didn't get a cell phone until 2007, but she will frequently zone out of our conversations now to type on her iPhone. I know everybody uses one these days, but I can't help feeling snubbed at moments like that. [It may not be just your conversations that she's "zoning out of," it may be you and her marriage.]*
> 
> W has also made new friends at her classes. From what I hear, they're women our age who have their own husbands and families. Outside of class, W has begun to socialize with them. W might watch a movie with one of them over the weekend, or they'll grab a coffee or drink together. Because they aren't in our usual circle of college friends or married couples, it's hard to just invite myself along. I probably wouldn't enjoy drinking coffee with married women and discussing Jennifer Aniston movies, anyway. But *I do feel badly about not hanging out with W as much. [You should, because she'd obviously rather spend time with her friends than with you.]*
> 
> *At the same time, there's no sign of W behaving inappropriately.  [Another funny line. Do you think it "appropriate" for a wife to behave the way yours is? What you mean is that you don't yet have proof that she is screwing around with anyone . . .] *She always comes home at the end of the night, except when she has to leave town for work, or for baby showers, etc. * If W does come back late after getting a drink, she'll take a shower before climbing into bed. [. . . but you do have some evidence that she may be.] *I'm usually asleep by then, so there's no way I can notice anything incriminating. My son has complained W's jacket smelled like smoke or wine the next morning. *I explained that's what happens when you go to a place where they serve alcohol. He wasn't too reassured. [It's getting pretty serious when even your children are concerned about your W's behavior, don't you think?]*
> 
> Ultimately, I can't tell if W is actually doing anything to harm our M, or if I'm just being paranoid. Another example: I feel increasingly uncomfortable when W talks to people in public, especially males. In reality, W has always been amiable and talkative. It's nothing new for her to get into chats with waiters, salespeople, strangers in lineups, people we ask for directions, etc. The difference, frankly, is that I suspect the men she's talking to now are coming at the conversation from a different angle.
> 
> These days, W looks like a fit, attractive woman. I know what kind of head space that puts a man into - almost automatically - even if he's not intending to do anything wrong. And it's not her fault, either. She isn't dressing in a provocative, attention-seeking way. There's no lipstick, eyelashes, or short skirts here. She's just wearing nice clothes that happen to flatter her skinnier figure. It can't be helped. W is thin now, but she's stayed big chested. No one paid much attention to W's curves when she was heavier, or wore JC Penny clothes. Now, *I assume guys will check her out, even if she doesn't wear pushup bras, low-cut tops, or anything like that. It's just a result of being in good shape, but it's starting to grate on me. [You're right, they will check her out and, from what you're telling us, this is exactly what she wants them to do. Yah, that would grate on me too if my wife did it.]*
> 
> And that's where I'm at. It's not exactly clear what I should do next. I'm of the opinion that relationships thrive in an open, trusting environment. Also, breathing down W's neck with a lot of prying questions probably won't make her feel more invested in our M. So how do I raise these issues, and not seem petty or controlling? There's no evidence - or even probable grounds - to prove that W's done anything wrong. So what can I say to express my concerns, without accusing her, or backing her into a corner? Are there any subtle, respectful lines of questioning I can get into, that won't sound nosy or presumptuous?
> 
> *To put our relationship in context again, W is still the same lovely woman I married more than 60% of the time. It's only occasional moments, when she says or does something out of character, that leave a bad taste in my mouth. [Wow, you call 40% of the time "occasional"? What your saying is that your W is a different person almost half the time but, as far as you are concerned, she is still the same lovely woman you married. Again, you need to start dealing with the reality of your situation.]* Please let me know what you think. Any feedback will be appreciated, since I'm honestly struggling here.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Logan


The sorry truth is that your head is so far up your "nice guy" beta *ss that you can't even say what you're thinking and you're afraid of doing anything about it for fear of angering your W (or worse). Unless you change your attitude, you are likely headed for a marital crisis.

You are correct that you don't have enough evidence to accuse your W of anything, but that doesn't mean you are powerless to do something. Here are a few things that you can do:

- Start immediately to up our sexual attractiveness. This means regular exercise, good diet, little or no booze, etc. Don't say that you are too busy to do this unless you are also too busy to stay married to your newly attractive W. Also, when was the last time you had a wardrobe upgrade?

- Start to do things for yourself like spending more time with male friends, taking up an activity that interests you and generally beginning to develop a life outside of work and family. This will accomplish two things -- it will raise your self-esteem and it will send you W a message that she is not the only one who has options.

- Have a conversation with your W about what you like and don't like about the current state of your marriage. The key to this conversation is your attitude and demeanor -- project confidence in yourself, interest in her and a desire to improve your marriage. Be honest about your concerns but do not be emotional or accusatory. Rather, compliment her on the improvements she has made to herself, state matter-of-factly that some of her behaviors raise doubts in your mind about her commitment to the marriage (going out with friends a few times a week, spending less time with her children, etc.) and ask her what she is prepared to do to address your concerns. Do not argue if she refuses to answer or gets upset and starts to complain about the marriage or criticize you. Rather, listen carefully and try to understand what she is saying. Do more listening than talking and do not make any promises or offer any apologies. Just thank her for discussing things with you and say that you will consider what she says and get back to her. If she asks, why the questions, tell her that good communication is an important ingredient in a healthy marriage and you are trying to improve it for the sake of the both of you and your children.

- Pay special attention to what she does, where she goes, who she spends time with, etc. You may not feel comfortable yet in "spying" on her but that shouldn't prevent you from learning what she is doing when she is away from you. If you do discover evidence of adulterous behavior, then follow the advice of others on TAM and start to monitor her more closely. When she's going out, don't be afraid to ask her where she will be, who she will be with and when she will be home -- every married person (and especially a parent) has a responsibility to let his or her spouse know these things.

- Read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Richard Clover and "The Married Man Sex Life Primer" by Athol Kay. These will give you a grounding on what it takes to win _and keep_ an attractive woman's affection.

There are many other things you can do and other resources that can guide you (do some Google searches to find these). Don't sit just sit around waiting for the shoe to drop.

Listen to the advice you get on TAM but make your own decisions about what is best for you and your marriage. Take charge of your life and do what you think is best. But realize that, in marriage as in most other things in life, you have to be alert to dangers, work for what you want and be prepared to take some risks along the way -- there are no substitutes for diligence, effort and courage.

Apologies if you think my delivery too blunt but, the sooner you realize that you are failing miserably in protecting your marriage and family, the sooner you can start to fix things.

Good luck.


----------



## Soifon

Just ask her for her phone to look up something completely random and keep an eye on how she reacts. If she is hesitant to hand it over, she needs to do anything to it first or if she hangs out over your shoulder watching what you do then you have a serious problem. I would start with that. Then you aren't doing anything in a sneaky way that you are so afraid of (though you shouldn't be) and you can get a better feel if she is hiding something.


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## Cubby

Carmen ohio, good analysis and sound advice.


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## Chaparral

What is " the Secret"? Has she read FITY SHADES OF GRAY?

How long is she gone when she works out? Is the gym for males and females? Go with her occasionally and check out how she and other people react to you, especially the physical trainers.

Is the yoga instructor male or female?

It really seems like you only know what she is doing by what she tells you.

Besides the phone, you need to take a close look at her credit/debit card expenditures. Do you have separate bank accts?


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## See_Listen_Love

chapparal said:


> Is the gym for males and females?
> ...
> Is the yoga instructor male or female?


This makes not anymore the difference it used to do....


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## phillybeffandswiss

See_Listen_Love said:


> This makes not anymore the difference it used to do....


Actually it does depending on what Chap means. If it is a coed gym, Logan can join, start working out with her to up his value and "snoop" in an innocent manner.


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## Chaparral

See_Listen_Love said:


> This makes not anymore the difference it used to do....


But you still have to consider the odds.

Plus, male yoga instructors and male trainers are notorious for going after their clients.

There are way more temptations in coed settings.


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## Soifon

chapparal said:


> What is " the Secret"? Has she read FITY SHADES OF GRAY?


The Secret is a self-help/motivational book.


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## Chaparral

Soifon said:


> The Secret is a self-help/motivational book.


That sounds good. Reading up on how to be more attractive and going out a lot seems fishy. Otoh, she is getting more attention from her husband.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Exactly. Everything seems fine if you remove the repeated late night GNOs and showers. Before someone says "what about the distancing from the kids," IMO that is a byproduct, an important one, of multiple GNOs in the same week. My mom has and still does GNOs. They are normally once a week, lunch or dinner, a movie and home before 8. Yes, even before she was retired.

Sorry, minus a midnight movie or concert, I have never understood how spouses, of either gender, allow their significant others to come home in the wee hours of the morning. It isn't about control, you aren't single any more.


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## See_Listen_Love

The 'two times a month sex' is very much not fitting to her new life style. 

Big red flag.

You have to investigate if you are not 'kept satisfied' by this. How can you do with so little of making love/sex while your wife is looking so hot??


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## Logan 3

I liked Soifon's idea of just asking if I could look at something unimportant on W's iPhone screen (like how much signal she has). I tried it. W gave me a quizzical look, then asked why I wanted to. I had to justify my question. W casually said "I have 4 bars". That was it. I was the one who came across acting weird. I'm getting closer to just investigating her phone bill. I'm also going to suggest we visit her gym together, so I can use the treadmill. I'll wait a day or two for the awkwardness of the iPhone question to subside. In the meantime, I've already purchased new racquetball equipment and gym clothes at Walmart.

As Soifon said, the Secret and Law of Attraction are books about positive thinking. They're like new age versions of Anthony Robins. They don't deal with romance. W hasn't brought up "50 Shades of Gray" except as a joke, so I would assume she hasn't read it. 

Thank you, Carmen Ohio, for the thoughtful comments, even if some of them sound too cynical. Based on the current situation, I don't think there is "evidence" that W is "screwing around with someone". Even so, I appreciate the in-depth response.

On a related point, and in regards to the last comment, I should clarify that it's not a matter of W looking "so hot". She is still a 44 year-old woman who wears glasses and barely puts on makeup. She has certain impressive physical traits that have recently become more evident, but it's not like she's Jane Mansfield strutting around in a red dress.

The gym is co-ed. As far as I know, the instructors are women. Any anecdote I can remember about an instructor has involved references to "she" and "her".

Logan


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## Chaparral

Good luck Logan. The reason for allthe cynisism is hard earned experience. Do not think for a minute, however, that we are doing anything but trying to help you. If this is bad or just the opportunity to help you put your feelings to rest, we are solidly in your corner. We may help you avoid a future disaster. Marriage has to be tended to keep it healthy. You would not believe how bad we want this to be a success story. Around here it would be like an oasis in a desert..


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## phillybeffandswiss

Logan 3 said:


> I liked Soifon's idea of just asking if I could look at something unimportant on W's iPhone screen (like how much signal she has). I tried it. W gave me a quizzical look, then asked why I wanted to. I had to justify my question. W casually said "I have 4 bars". That was it. I was the one who came across acting weird. I'm getting closer to just investigating her phone bill. I'm also going to suggest we visit her gym together, so I can use the treadmill. I'll wait a day or two for the awkwardness of the iPhone question to subside. In the meantime, I've already purchased new racquetball equipment and gym clothes at Walmart.
> 
> As Soifon said, the Secret and Law of Attraction are books about positive thinking. They're like new age versions of Anthony Robins. They don't deal with romance. W hasn't brought up "50 Shades of Gray" except as a joke, so I would assume she hasn't read it.
> 
> Thank you, Carmen Ohio, for the thoughtful comments, even if some of them sound too cynical. Based on the current situation, I don't think there is "evidence" that W is "screwing around with someone". Even so, I appreciate the in-depth response.
> 
> On a related point, and in regards to the last comment, I should clarify that it's not a matter of W looking "so hot". She is still a 44 year-old woman who wears glasses and barely puts on makeup. She has certain impressive physical traits that have recently becoming more evident, but it's not like she's Jane Mansfield strutting around in a red dress.
> 
> The gym is co-ed. As far as I know, the instructors are women. Any anecdote I can remember about an instructor has involved references to "she" and "her".
> 
> Logan


Good luck. I hope you are correct with your many assumptions.

I will say one thing, how you perceive your wife's looks has no bearing on any other man at her gym, work or the GNOs she attends. If her "impressive physical traits" are more prominent to you, I can guarantee she is Jane Mansfield hot to someone besides you.


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## Entropy3000

Find out if she has a personal trainer.

See who her Yoga teachers are. And the other folks in her class.

You should find an excuse to just pop into the GYM whne she is there. Unannounced. Watch the situation from afar for a while. 

When she sees you tell her you have decided to join the GYM to get in better shape and to spend more time with her when you can.

Do this.


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## Machiavelli

Logan 3 said:


> I will definitely research this, and may buy it. I don't know if acting like a "tough guy" is the best way to strengthen connections with my particular W, but I'll assume you have good reasons to suggest it.


It's a "hit the high spots" book on what women are attracted to and what men need to do to appeal to them. It's about the quickest way to bring someone who is not knowledgeable in how to appeal to women up to speed. Basically, women are not attracted to men through their rational brain (frontal cortex) but through the limbic. Largely autonomic responses to certain male physique dimensions (golden ratio), dominating ****iness in behavior, preselection/approval by other women, at least some element of Dark Triad traits (real or manufactured), clearly expressed sexual interest, etc. These are the behaviors that typically illicit wet panties in females. Even married men must keep these going, although they must be balanced with Beta/Delta traits to keep a woman in a marriage. Not enough Alpha: you lose. Not enough Beta: you lose. You've got plenty of Beta/Delta going on, it sounds like.

One other thing. Yoga originated as Tantric foreplay. Your wife should be coming home from her yoga class ready to get it on.


----------



## Machiavelli

Logan 3 said:


> In the meantime, I've already purchased new racquetball equipment and gym clothes at Walmart.


Racquetball is a fun sport. I used to play it a lot and it's a great mixed double or date sport as well. However, that doesn't get you off the hook on the weight lifting. You need to bring your physique into line with the golden ratio. It's an interesting thing that most women actually only respond to the upper body of the male (shoulder, chest, waist ratio) and don't consider the legs. The exceptions are women who are gym rats, themselves.


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## Chaparral

Actually, the tough guy remark makes it sound like you think you knowwhat the book is about. What it reveals is that you are not coming here with an open mind. A good man is not a tough guy but a man that is just astough as he needs to be in a given situation. Your posts make it clear that you have been conditioned by "progressive"thought.
Don't let cliches lead you in the wrong direction.

Your attempt to see her phone should have shown you that you are going to have to be much smarter and more sly than you have been up to this point.


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## See_Listen_Love

Logan 3 said:


> On a related point, and in regards to the last comment, I should clarify that it's not a matter of W looking "so hot". She is still a 44 year-old woman who wears glasses and barely puts on makeup. She has certain impressive physical traits that have recently becoming more evident, but it's not like she's Jane Mansfield strutting around in a red dress.


You wrote



> The most obvious change in W comes from _working out,_ which she's kept doing regularly. _ W dropped 40 lbs._ That's a big development, since she was never in great shape, even when we were young. As a man, I do get certain benefits out of the situation. _ I'm more physically attracted to her, and more inclined to plan "romantic" evenings._ Our love life has always been affectionate, but not necessarily hot. I think it's good to have a little more chemistry in the mix. There's an emotional benefit for her, too. W is normally a gregarious person. _ Over the last year, though, she's also become confident and assertive, which are new qualities for her. _These days, W makes the most of_ her slim figure_ by wearing nicer clothes. Fashion wasn't a priority in the past, but _now she enjoys putting together nice outfits - both for work, as well as casually._
> 
> A lot of the outfits, in fact, are based on her workouts at the gym. First, W was going to Yoga. Then Pilates. Now Zumba. At this point, I've kind of lost track. I just know her classes require Lululemon-type clothing, which has led to_ wearing yoga pants and tank tops outside the gym, too. W will wear sweatpants to Starbucks, the supermarket, and various places where working out isn't even a possibility. For those who don't know, the selling point of Lycra gym clothes is they tend to really flatter a woman's rear end and legs. After losing weight, W excels in both departments_. I'm not necessarily complaining, it's just an odd situation to wrap my head around.
> 
> Overall, you could say W's lifestyle changes mainly revolve around health and personal fitness. She doesn't seem overly interest in makeup, jewelery, handbags, or material things. _I've only noticed a few shoes with taller heels or fancier pairs of underwear._ That might not even count, since she hardly ever wears those. W did get a haircut over the holidays - _shorter, sportier, a few blonde highlights._ But otherwise, _her focus is on eating well, going to the spa, exercising, stretching, moisturizing, doing whatever it takes to feel healthy. On this side of 40, it's hard to blame W for wanting to feel as youthful as possible_. My only concern is that her new lifestyle could be interfering with her naturally beautiful personality.


A woman who works out, dresses sexy, very sexy as you describe, has self confidence, likes her new self, works on her health and figure, looks sportive....

I don't know from what planet you are, but if I see such a lady on the street, especially the sporting type, I always want to go run with her, the energy makes one feel alive, only from watching these types.


Oh... add short sightedness to your problems....


----------



## Chaparral

She did not simply let you look at her phone. If you had to ask, I assume that also means she doesn't leave it laying around and always keeps it with her. Two more huge red flags.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

"*I tried it. W gave me a quizzical look, then asked why I wanted to. I had to justify my question. W casually said "I have 4 bars". That was it. I was the one who came across acting weird. I'm getting closer to just investigating her phone bill*."

Yet another red flag. She's having anything from inappropriate phone texts to a full blow affair and "you're getting closer to just investigating her phone bill".

Take some action and NOW. If you don't, I can see the infamous "I love you, but am not in love with you speech" heading your way in the future.


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## warlock07

Get a keylogger on the home computer(the one she uses) immediately . You can chose not to look at a later date


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## Soifon

I think you should try the phone again in a few days. This time though you need to let your phone die. Tell her you need to make a phone call and need to use her phone. Don't ask her if you can, just tell her. If it is laying around just pick it up and if she asks what you are doing say your phone is dead and you have to make a call.


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## Logan 3

For See_Listen_Love, Phillybeffandswiss and Carmen Ohio, we're probably closer to being on the same page than you think. I am aware it's important to be a more confident, active, interesting man now. The one qualifier is that W is not some cheerleader type who swoons at the possibility of riding on the back of a motorbike. There's a reason why we gravitated to each other in college. W was friendly, studious, even nerdy. She liked intelligent, quirky guys. If I packed on too much muscle, or took up too many macho hobbies, I'd actually be getting farther away from her ideal type.

There also seems to be a misunderstanding with regard to how W presents herself. Recently, I said that she looks healthier, more attractive, and wears more stylish, higher quality clothes. Somehow, this got exaggerated into a view that she's making herself look "hot" or "sexy". Again, W does not wear short skirts, fake nails, low-cut tops, or even that much makeup. Her outfits for work are tasteful and professional. Believe it or not, I understand this is a forum for raw conversations, so I'm not offended. I just don't think the hyperbole will help to analyze my situation as accurately as possible.

Having said that, I went ahead and looked at one of W's phone records while she was at the gym yesterday. I'll leave out the description of how conflicted I felt looking through her things. In the end, there were a few texts and calls to different numbers that I couldn't match up with my own records. They're probably friends from class or work, whose contact details I don't have on file. No one number stood out as being contacted more frequently than the rest, except for my own phone and our landline. 

Regarding Entropy3000's idea of surprising W at the gym, that sounds likely to go wrong. Has anyone here actually tried it? I can envision it leading to more embarrassment and distrust. If someone has pulled off such a plan, though, and got worthwhile information from it, I'll consider being so bold myself. In the meantime, I've just planted the seed of casually accompanying W to the gym by telling her about my new sports clothes and equipment. She seemed surprised, but not intolerant. From what I know, she doesn't currently have a personal trainer.

Logan


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## carmen ohio

Logan 3 said:


> For See_Listen_Love, Phillybeffandswiss and Carmen Ohio, we're probably closer to being on the same page than you think. I am aware it's important to be a more confident, active, interesting man now. The one qualifier is that W is not some cheerleader type who swoons at the possibility of riding on the back of a motorbike.There's a reason why we gravitated to each other in college. W was friendly, studious, even nerdy. She liked intelligent, quirky guys. If I packed on too much muscle, or took up too many macho hobbies, I'd actually be getting farther away from her ideal type.
> 
> There also seems to be a misunderstanding with regard to how W presents herself. Recently, I said that she looks healthier, more attractive, and wears more stylish, higher quality clothes. Somehow, this got exaggerated into a view that she's making herself look "hot" or "sexy". Again, W does not wear short skirts, fake nails, low-cut tops, or even that much makeup. Her outfits for work are tasteful and professional. Believe it or not, I understand this is a forum for raw conversations, so I'm not offended. I just don't think the hyperbole will help to analyze my situation as accurately as possible.
> 
> Having said that, I went ahead and looked at one of W's phone records while she was at the gym yesterday. I'll leave out the description of how conflicted I felt looking through her things. In the end, there were a few texts and calls to different numbers that I couldn't match up with my own records. They're probably friends from class or work, whose contact details I don't have on file. No one number stood out as being contacted more frequently than the rest, except for my own phone and our landline.
> 
> Regarding Entropy3000's idea of surprising W at the gym, that sounds likely to go wrong. Has anyone here actually tried it? I can envision it leading to more embarrassment and distrust. If someone has pulled off such a plan, though, and got worthwhile information from it, I'll consider being so bold myself. In the meantime, I've just planted the seed of casually accompanying W to the gym by telling her about my new sports clothes and equipment. She seemed surprised, but not intolerant. From what I know, she doesn't currently have a personal trainer.
> 
> Logan


Logan,

You might be surprised how much people can change. Read The-Deceived's thread (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/64959-she-cheated-wow.html) whose wife had an affair with a Hell's Angel, or so_conflicted's thread (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-not-sure-i-can-move-after-his-affair-12.html) whose husband is having an affair with a young chippy because he didn't sow any oats when was young.

Whether your wife is or is not doing anything she shouldn't, it's clear from your posts that your marriage is in jeopardy simply because she has improved herself and you haven't.

_Get a copy of MMSLP and read it._ It will provide you with sound advice on how to improve your sexual attractiveness which, if your wife hasn't started looking around yet, will help strengthen your marriage. It's not about "packing on muscle" or taking up "macho" hobbies; it's about exuding self-confidence, being more exciting and less predictable and having self-respect -- i.e., being the kind of man that woman are genetically programmed to be attracted to.

If you truly believe that she isn't doing anything improper, then there is no reason to "spy" on her but then even more reason to have a heart-to-heart talk about what is bothering you (as well as to learn if you are falling down on the job in her eyes). Because of the nature of the issues that people bring to TAM/CwI, there is a tendency to cast every problem as one of infidelity. But there are lots of marriages in which neither party has strayed but one (or even both) aren't getting what they need. This situation _breeds_ infidelity. The antidote is honest and frequent communication.

Don't be afraid to talk to her about your concerns. Don't accuse her of anything and listen carefully to what she has to say. If she answers your questions straightforwardly and without hostility, that's good. If she goes on to say that she thinks there are areas of your marriage that need improving, tell her you will consider what she says with an eye to improving things -- and then do so. But if she doesn't want to have such a conversation or turns it into a gripe session about all of your past and present failings, then you know that your marriage is in trouble (whether she's already begun stepping out or not). 

But don't entirely discount the possibility that things may have progressed to the point where she is engaged in something that a faithful wife shouldn't be. Again, you don't have to go into full-blown James Bond mode, just be alert and don't be afraid to ask questions if something doesn't seem right to you (i.e., trust your gut). How she responds to perfectly reasonable questions will tell you a lot. Example:

W - "I'm going out tonight with my friends."

L - "OK, where are you going and when will you be back?"

W - (nonchalantly) "To movie. I should be home by 11:00. [Appropriate response, as long as she's home by around 11:00 and can tell you all about the movie -- get on with improving yourself and your marriage.]

- OR -

W - (irked) "Why do you want to know?" OR "I'm not sure where we'll go and I may be home late." [Suspicious responses, especially if she comes home very late and immediately pops into the shower -- time to start some serious snooping.]

The point is that, in a healthy marriage, spouses willingly communicate and share things with each other. They also change things up from time to time to keep the marriage fresh and rewarding. Give your wife a chance to do this and see if she responds appropriately. If she does, maybe all you need to do is to start working on improving your marriage. If she doesn't, you can consider going deeper into surveillance mode.

Based on everything you've said as well as the experience of numerous TAM threads, I'd say there's a reasonable chance that she hasn't done anything seriously inappropriate (yet) but also a good chance that she is at least beginning to warm to the idea. Don't let this happen. Start being the kind of husband that no woman would want to cheat on (_read MMSLP_) and start -- in a calm and measured way -- to talk to her about what's bothering you.

Hope for the best, expect something less, but prepare for the worst.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

The hitting the shower after a late night out is the biggest red flag to me. I mean, what is she doing while out that warrants a shower? She's not coming from a late night gym workout, right?

After she takes the late night/before bed shower, do you two get intimate? You wrote "*We make love of a few times a month. The frequency went up this year, due to W's higher energy level and my increased attraction / motivation*". So I have to assume you're not.

You don't have to believe that your wife has, or could ever cheat on you, but ANYTHING IS possible. You wouldn't be the first to wake up one day and "find out" and you also wouldn't be the last.

You have that "gut feeling" that something's a miss. You've seen some signs that something is not quite right. What you do from here on out will have a direct and profound effect on you, your wife and your marriage. You don't have to go all 007 on her, but do something. Also, keep in mind that any question you ask her will also serve a warning that you are now watching. If you reveal too much too soon and IF she is up to something, you've just made the task at hand much harder for to accomplish.

I hope this is all due to the new found self awarness and self improvment attitude she has addopted as of late. I think we all do. We just want you to be aware, follow the signs, protect youself and your marriage. We don't see nearly enough of them around here, but we do want see this end happily for you.


----------



## weightlifter

Same phone acct? Check for things like text free or games with text apps inside them like words with friends.

Glad she passed the phone bill test.

The shower thing bugs me... This is a change from previous behavior? Is this only after GNOS and other late night stuff?

Does she immediately change panties and start a load of laundry after a GNO?

I assume nerdy = high IQ?


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## Logan 3

Thanks for the continuing insight. Even when it's harsh, I appreciate it.

The kids are out tomorrow night, so I'm considering using the opportunity to talk privately with W, asking some of the questions you guys suggest. We're supposed to have a movie night at home, but I think that can lead into a conversation where I ask about all the "fun" activities she's involved in lately.

Purely out of "curiousity", I could ask whether they offer personal training services at her gym. I could also ask about the restaurants where she's had wine with friends. I could get her to tell me about these places in detail, in order to decide if we should visit any of them as a couple. Let me know if you can think of more casual, low-key questions like this that I can ask tomorrow.

Weightlifter and Groundpounder: Showering isn't new in the sense W always prefers to be neat and clean. It wouldn't be unusual for her to take a shower after we get home from a walk on a warm day, for example. After getting in at night, she usually changes into her nightgown. We don't get frisky, because I'm either sleeping or nearly asleep. Nerdy meant high IQ, glasses, not a partier.

Logan


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## Simcha

I have first hand experience with this. I experienced a lot of what you described and ultimately cost me my marriage.

It is very apparent that your W's changes are making you insecure. If you don't get a hold of your insecurity it will terrorize your marriage. At the same time, I also believe in gut feelings but be careful because your insecurity may be influencing your gut incorrectly.

My advice to you is as follows: Do like Ronald Reagan said to do. "Trust but Verify". If you do verify be extremely discrete and do not get caught.

Start working on your self-confidence. You can lose weight too. Eat healthier, cut back on the booze, etc. Doing so will strengthen the connection between you and your wife. I disagree with others in the forum. Don't talk about it, it will make you look weak and women don't like weak. Do more to connect with your wife.

One very important question is, are you having sex? How often? If you are not, it's a problem.


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## nothingtodeclare

*Re: Re: When is Jealousy Normal... When is 'Change' Too Much?*



Logan 3 said:


> We don't get frisky, because I'm either sleeping or nearly asleep.


Next time, wake up and take it! Time to up the sex life and explore the new mojo you BOTH have. As far as conversation goes, just show a genuine interest in what she is doing and hopefully she will enjoy sharing. Don't feel guilt for ensuring the marriage is safe. You would expect her to do the same if you threw up a few flags. 

Although the phone records are a good start, I would feel safer peeping the password on that phone and making sure it is clean. With the PW in hand, if something pops up later, you will have access. Don't live a life of paranoia, just play a little catch-up to ease your mind.


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## Machiavelli

Logan 3 said:


> Thanks for the continuing insight. Even when it's harsh, I appreciate it.
> 
> The kids are out tomorrow night, so I'm considering using the opportunity to talk privately with W, asking some of the questions you guys suggest. We're supposed to have a movie night at home, but I think that can lead into a conversation where I ask about all the "fun" activities she's involved in lately.


Forget the movie night. Take her out. Take her dancing or out to hear live music. Show a little life.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan 3 said:


> Thanks for the continuing insight. Even when it's harsh, I appreciate it.
> 
> The kids are out tomorrow night, so I'm considering using the opportunity to talk privately with W, asking some of the questions you guys suggest. We're supposed to have a movie night at home, but I think that can lead into a conversation where I ask about all the "fun" activities she's involved in lately.
> 
> Purely out of "curiousity", I could ask whether they offer personal training services at her gym. I could also ask about the restaurants where she's had wine with friends. I could get her to tell me about these places in detail, in order to decide if we should visit any of them as a couple. Let me know if you can think of more casual, low-key questions like this that I can ask tomorrow.
> 
> *Weightlifter and Groundpounder: Showering isn't new in the sense W always prefers to be neat and clean. It wouldn't be unusual for her to take a shower after we get home from a walk on a warm day, for example. After getting in at night, she usually changes into her nightgown. We don't get frisky, because I'm either sleeping or nearly asleep. Nerdy meant high IQ, glasses, not a partier.*
> 
> Logan


OK, so the late showers sound like they were already the norm for her.

It sounds to me like you two are living somewhat separate lives, at least on the nights that she goes out. This is something you should work on changing.

Eventually, gradually, you're lives will become more and more separate. I think you should start showing her that she's still important to you, on a regular basis. The next time she goes out, show her that she's worth waiting up for. Even if you don't end up making love, just talk, give her a hug, anything.

Start doing the little things that will add up over time. Hug her and kiss her once a day, for no apparent reason, just because. Just little reminders.

Maybe she's starting to rely on her friends more an more because you two are connecting less and less.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Logan 3 said:


> For See_Listen_Love, Phillybeffandswiss and Carmen Ohio, we're probably closer to being on the same page than you think. I am aware it's important to be a more confident, active, interesting man now. The one qualifier is that W is not some cheerleader type who swoons at the possibility of riding on the back of a motorbike. There's a reason why we gravitated to each other in college. W was friendly, studious, even nerdy. She liked intelligent, quirky guys. If I packed on too much muscle, or took up too many macho hobbies, I'd actually be getting farther away from her ideal type.
> 
> There also seems to be a misunderstanding with regard to how W presents herself. Recently, I said that she looks healthier, more attractive, and wears more stylish, higher quality clothes. Somehow, this got exaggerated into a view that she's making herself look "hot" or "sexy". Again, W does not wear short skirts, fake nails, low-cut tops, or even that much makeup. Her outfits for work are tasteful and professional. Believe it or not, I understand this is a forum for raw conversations, so I'm not offended. I just don't think the hyperbole will help to analyze my situation as accurately as possible.


 You said Jayne Mansfield not me. That's your own hyperbole as well. Seriously, it sounds like you are trying convince yourself she can't be found sexy Logan.




> It sounds to me like you two are living somewhat separate lives, at least on the nights that she goes out. This is something you should work on changing.
> 
> Eventually, gradually, you're lives will become more and more separate. I think you should start showing her that she's still important to you, on a regular basis. The next time she goes out, show her that she's worth waiting up for. Even if you don't end up making love, just talk, give her a hug, anything.


Right.



She is doing it for one of two reasons:
1) Her and her marriage.
2) The attention she is getting from other men.

Nope, I am not saying she is cheating. Most women crave attention and if she doesn't get it from you because you were sleeping, working, traveling etc she will seek it somewhere else. That's when the problems being. You want it to be number one.

Trust and verify. Also, sit down and talk with her instead of us. 90% of this could be cleared up with a healthy conversation.


----------



## Chaparral

That assumes you listen and accept what she says. The problem is that men and women hear what the other is saying but fail to understand what the other is getting at.


----------



## Chaparral

I am afraid that if something is going on, what you are planning is just going to make her hide it better. I think you need a complete background check before you send out any more suspicious signals.


----------



## TBT

Logan 3 said:


> Several people have keyed into the shower thing. I should point out W is normally a neat, hygienic person. Washing up when she comes back from a smokey place - after already spending the day at work - doesn't seem unusual.


I think one of the reasons some keyed onto this is because you seemed to make it relevant in your first post.If its not unusual,it just seems like an odd thing to add...that is,unless your gut is trying to tell you something.Good luck and I hope you can put your worries to rest.


----------



## workindad

Try a var in her car. Cheap and effective. Sorry but there are red flags here to me. The increase in gnos also you did not get the phone. Why not?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calmwinds

Again, I'm not on her side if she is, in fact doing something wrong. That said, if she has finally taken time for herself after realizing she hasn't been caring for herself all these years and dropped 40 pounds, SHE'S GOING TO NEED NEW PANTIES because the old ones don't fit anymore. Maybe, just maybe, she decides on something a little prettier than the granny panties because now she CAN wear them without feeling self conscious as she would have in the past (just because they make it in your size doesn't mean you should wear it-something I heard once).
"The Secret" isn't a book about getting "hot", the basis is- you manifest your thoughts, positive or negative.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

chapparal said:


> That assumes you listen and accept what she says. The problem is that men and women hear what the other is saying but fail to understand what the other is getting at.


No, that is why I said 90% could be cleared up.
10% Trust and verify is for exactly what you just typed.

Don't stay out late, staying up when she gets home late, talking about the self help books, explaining how it looks to the kids, and finding out what is going on would end 90% of the problems in the OP. Trust and verify would help settle his gut and the final 10%.

Yep, my opinion. 
Yep, my percentages.


----------



## weightlifter

At this point with most things cleared. Do only the app check for the phone and the var thing I suggest for two weeks. HIDE THEM WELL. IF nothing. Put them away and redo in 2 months.

Imagine if this is one of those rare ones where nothing happened?

Dont do the talk thing now. Do the var for 2 weeks thing THEN do the talk thing.

Again in you have nothing on vars at two weeks out. Keep your eyes open and report back but this one may be a false positive.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Until cause of the lack of sex is solved I say keep looking for an A.


----------



## Logan 3

Hello,

As planned, I tried casually bringing up a few relationship questions with W before settling in to watch a movie last night. Apparently, W had four gym instructors from her different classes, one of whom was male. None of them did one-on-one training.

Besides restaurants, W's friends have gone to at least one bar to get drinks. A martini bar that's popular with the 30+ crowd. I tried making a joke based on our son's comment that W's jacket smelled like cigarettes when she came back from one of these places. I wanted to see her reaction, but the joke sounded more insulting than funny, and W suggested we just watch the movie at that point.

By the time I mentioned visiting the gym together, the tone of the conversation had become strained. W must've sensed that my gym idea was related to other questions I'd asked, and seemed uncomfortable with me wanting to sit in on her workouts. I segued into a few lighter topics and then dropped the conversation entirely. For anyone who's interested, Silver Linings Playbook is a decent movie.

As to Calmwinds' point, that's exactly what I'm struggling with here. W has a right to look good, feel good, and be in charge of her life. So how much of this is my fault for being unreasonably insecure? Focusing on the underwear struck a bit of a raw nerve for me, but that demonstrates how oversensitive my reactions could be right now.

Logan


----------



## Chaparral

Re the underwear. Sexy new underwear isn't a problem usually if she wears it around you. If you see underwear in her drawer she never wears around you but wears when she goes out, that's very bad.

You have to be more discreet. Your inept questioning now has her on high alert. If she is doing something, she now knows you are on her trail and will be super careful.

Are any of the women she is hanging out with dicorced, single or cheaters?

Hanging out at bars could be cougars on the prowl or maybe not.

You need a var now, you are not going to learn anything ffom her if it is bad.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan 3 said:


> Hello,
> 
> As planned, I tried casually bringing up a few relationship questions with W before settling in to watch a movie last night. Apparently, W had four gym instructors from her different classes, one of whom was male. None of them did one-on-one training.
> 
> Besides restaurants, W's friends have gone to at least one bar to get drinks. A martini bar that's popular with the 30+ crowd. I tried making a joke based on our son's comment that W's jacket smelled like cigarettes when she came back from one of these places. I wanted to see her reaction, but the joke sounded more insulting than funny, and W suggested we just watch the movie at that point.
> 
> By the time I mentioned visiting the gym together, the tone of the conversation had become strained. W must've sensed that my gym idea was related to other questions I'd asked, and seemed uncomfortable with me wanting to sit in on her workouts. I segued into a few lighter topics and then dropped the conversation entirely. For anyone who's interested, Silver Linings Playbook is a decent movie.
> 
> As to Calmwinds' point, that's exactly what I'm struggling with here. W has a right to look good, feel good, and be in charge of her life. So how much of this is my fault for being unreasonably insecure? Focusing on the underwear struck a bit of a raw nerve for me, but that demonstrates how oversensitive my reactions could be right now.
> 
> Logan


So you hinted, looking for answers and she didn't bite. Now if you out right ask her direct questions, will she give you direct, or true answers? From what you've said of the tone in her responses to you from your indirect questions, my guess is her next answers will be direct, but truthful, not so much.

If you want to know the truth, you're going to have to find it out for yourself. I guess I should ask, do you want to know the truth? If there is something going on, do you want to know what it is?

I ask because you you came here with that "gut feeling" and signs that you thought something was not right with your wife/marriage. People here told you that there *could* be something going on and what YOU could do to find out the answer.

You however seem to be trying nice your wife into giving you the answers. First off, if she is having an inappropriate relationship(EA, PA, or Both) she is not going to tell you just because you ask. If there isn't an inappropriate relationship going on and you keep throwing hints at her, she probably going to start resenting you for it. Not to mention that every time you ask her about what she's doing when not being with you, you're letting her know that you're now watching. So IF she is up to something, you're just making it harder to find out what.

You may want to dig for some answers on your own before asking her anything else about the gym, or her late nights out. If you don't come up with anything, good. Then you can concentrate on your marriage with a good idea that there isn't already a third party involved.

You seem like a really nice guy and that's probably has allot to do with why your wife dated and then married you. How ever, nice isn't what's going to be what get's you the answers, or your wife to stop drifting away from you and you kids.


----------



## Robsia

If I lost weight and bought sexy new underwear, I'd DEFINITELY be wearing it around my husband!


----------



## Logan 3

So W went out last night. After a tense chat Friday, I didn't make a big deal out of it. I was going to be at a game with our son until early evening, anyway, so I couldn't really object. Without telling her, I did make a point of staying awake until she got home.

She came in around 12. I was still downstairs watching TV, which surprised her. I asked if "everyone had a fun night", which also seemed to confuse her. When I playfully suggested our evening didn't have to end there, W said she was going to wash up and go to bed. I could join her when I wanted.

I left it at that, not giving her a hard time about the shower. I did go to the closet, though, to follow up on what my son had been saying. Sure enough, W's jacket smelled like a bar. Not sure that counts as great detective work, on my part. By the time I finished my show and joined her upstairs, W was asleep.

To point out another theme that bothers me here: shouldn't an athletic, self-help lifestyle be incompatible with doing activities that involve drinking, smoking, etc?

W doesn't smoke, but given her recent interest in healthiness, shouldn't she and her friends want to avoid any place as unhealthy as a bar?

Has anyone else experienced this contradiction, where your spouse becomes involved in physical fitness, then wants to drink wine or stay up late on weekends?

I don't see the logic, but maybe someone like Calmwinds could explain...

Logan


----------



## weightlifter

Sigh. VAR her already. You will have your answer within two weeks. Sony icdpx312.


----------



## bryanp

This does not look good. She is beginning to develop a single life style that does not include you. I agree that you need a VAR. If all this is happening and your sex life is low and she is not wearing her new sexy underwear around you; then this is very typical of a cheater's handbook. I do not think this is going to end well at all.


----------



## Chaparral

You are canicing around this like its a fire and you are afraid of getting burnt. How could you possibly blow this oppurtunity too? Why did you not follow her to bed?

You are going to eat yourself up at this rate. By the time you figure anything out you will have feel out of love with her.

Get the VAR but most improtatnly find out where she is going.

Your actions are so incomprehensible as to seem unreal.

GPS systems and Navigation Systems for cars, trucking, outdoor | RadioShack.com


----------



## Chaparral

bryanp said:


> This does not look good. She is beginning to develop a single life style that does not include you. I agree that you need a VAR. If all this is happening and your sex life is low and she is not wearing her new sexy underwear around you; then this is very typical of a cheater's handbook. I do not think this is going to end well at all.


I wish you hadn't pointed this out, he's already total denial and can't function.


----------



## TRy

Logan 3 said:


> She came in around 12. I was still downstairs watching TV, which surprised her. I asked if "everyone had a fun night", which also seemed to confuse her. When I playfully suggested our evening didn't have to end there, W said she was going to wash up and go to bed. I could join her when I wanted.
> 
> I left it at that, not giving her a hard time about the shower. I did go to the closet, though, to follow up on what my son had been saying. Sure enough, W's jacket smelled like a bar.


 Look at her panties for DNA. It could show that she was sexually aroused or worse it could show another man's DNA. If it looks suspicious hide it in a safe place for later testing. Do not give it back to your wife even if she gets mad at you. The more it has evidence, the more she will get mad. Even without another man's DNA, her getting sexually enough to juice her panties is cheating. BTW, do not rule out sex with one of her new girl friends. 



Logan 3 said:


> To point out another theme that bothers me here: shouldn't an athletic, self-help lifestyle be incompatible with doing activities that involve drinking, smoking, etc?


 Wrong question. The correct question is "shouldn't being married be incompatible with doing activities that involve drinking, smoking, and being at places that are designed to facilitate meeting members of the opposite sex?

All your posts are so beta. You lightly say things to her that are about topics that are serious. You jokingly ask her questions that do not sound like jokes, but do make you sound weak for not directly asking. You let her act like a single woman, and stay downstairs when she comes home until she is asleep. Even if she is not cheating yet, she has reduced you to a roommate and is actively putting herself in places to meet someone else.

If are waiting for irrefutable proof of her cheating to confront, what if she has not cheated yet, but is about to if these activities are not stopped? Is your goal to have a good reason to feel good about divorce? If your goal is to save your marriage, then her not acting like your wife is enough to confront and to file for divorce if she does not want to be a real wife to you any longer. Most divorces are not about infidelity, they are about people not being happy and needing a change. Fight for your marraige now. The longer that you wait, the more likely it will be too late. You must be willing to end the marraige (and mean it) to have any chance at having a marraige worth saving.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Logan 3 said:


> So W went out last night. After a tense chat Friday, I didn't make a big deal out of it. I was going to be at a game with our son until early evening, anyway, so I couldn't really object. Without telling her, I did make a point of staying awake until she got home.
> 
> She came in around 12. I was still downstairs watching TV, which surprised her. I asked if "everyone had a fun night", which also seemed to confuse her. When I playfully suggested our evening didn't have to end there, W said she was going to wash up and go to bed. I could join her when I wanted.
> 
> I left it at that, not giving her a hard time about the shower. I did go to the closet, though, to follow up on what my son had been saying. Sure enough, W's jacket smelled like a bar. Not sure that counts as great detective work, on my part. By the time I finished my show and joined her upstairs, W was asleep.
> 
> To point out another theme that bothers me here: shouldn't an athletic, self-help lifestyle be incompatible with doing activities that involve drinking, smoking, etc?
> 
> W doesn't smoke, but given her recent interest in healthiness, shouldn't she and her friends want to avoid any place as unhealthy as a bar?
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this contradiction, where your spouse becomes involved in physical fitness, then wants to drink wine or stay up late on weekends?
> 
> I don't see the logic, but maybe someone like Calmwinds could explain...
> 
> Logan


I have asthma, I have been to bars where people smoke. 
That means absolutely nothing in my eyes. What's more telling, and your fault, is that you backed off and let her fall asleep. 

She was shocked you were awake, shocked you asked questions and then was indifferent to your sex proposal. I would have followed her upstairs and engaged her in banter all the while checking her clothes and undergarments.

I'll say it again, there is NO LOGIC in affairs. 

Rich spouses cheat with Denny's employees.
Spouses cheat with drug dealers.
Spouses cheat with same sex partners.
Spouses cheat when they get EVERYTHING they want.

Quit worrying about what she is going to think and be proactive. Your marriage is in trouble, keyword YOUR not just HERS, but you sit back and keep being passive. Would you rather confront her and deal with your "jealousy," on even footing, or wait until she cheats or leaves you for another man? Then you'll know you weren't jealous?


----------



## Robsia

TRy said:


> ...her getting sexually [aroused] enough to juice her panties is cheating.


Getting aroused in your book is cheating? Really? What about masturbation? Is that cheating too? There is generally an element of arousal involved.

Does that work for men too? Ever time a guy gets a stiffie over a woman he's not married to he's cheating on his wife?

That's some world view.


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## warlock07

Your indecisiveness is going to hurt you. If you are going to snoop, do it properly.

ypou are coming off as needy and insecure. turnoff to most woman. Start reading MMSL immediately


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## Shaggy

Her going out on Sat night without you to a bar isn't nat all ok for a healthy marriage.

I strongly suggest you go use the var,

I'd also checkout what panties she wore out. We're they plain or sexy? Check them for white/off white stains.


----------



## TRy

Robsia said:


> Getting aroused in your book is cheating? Really? What about masturbation? Is that cheating too? There is generally an element of arousal involved.


 Put in context with us talking about her coming home late from a GNO at a bar, her cumming enough to wet her panties indicates that she was interacting in a sexual way that night, which I would think is cheating. 



Robsia said:


> Does that work for men too? Ever time a guy gets a stiffie over a woman he's not married to he's cheating on his wife?


 Put in the same context of a guy coming home late from drinking at at bar, getting not just a stiffie but cumming in his underpants, would also indicate that he was interacting in a sexual way that night, which would also be an cheating.



Robsia said:


> That's some world view.


If your world view is that grind dancing at a bar with someone such that you actually orgasm in your underwear, is normal fun for married people, then yes we do have a different world view.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Robsia said:


> Getting aroused in your book is cheating? Really? What about masturbation? Is that cheating too? There is generally an element of arousal involved.
> 
> Does that work for men too? Ever time a guy gets a stiffie over a woman he's not married to he's cheating on his wife?
> 
> That's some world view.


That was a weird reaction taken out of context.

If I am doing something that gets me so aroused, when I'm out with my buddies, I ejaculate in my underwear my wife BETTER ask questions. If she accuses me of cheating well, I better have the greatest reason ever. Right now, trying to think of one, I'm coming up with a bunch of stuff that could ruin my marriage.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Logan 3 said:


> So W went out last night. After a tense chat Friday, I didn't make a big deal out of it. I was going to be at a game with our son until early evening, anyway, so I couldn't really object. Without telling her, I did make a point of staying awake until she got home.
> 
> She came in around 12. I was still downstairs watching TV, which surprised her. I asked if "everyone had a fun night", which also seemed to confuse her. When I playfully suggested our evening didn't have to end there, W said she was going to wash up and go to bed. I could join her when I wanted.
> 
> I left it at that, not giving her a hard time about the shower. I did go to the closet, though, to follow up on what my son had been saying. Sure enough, W's jacket smelled like a bar. Not sure that counts as great detective work, on my part. By the time I finished my show and joined her upstairs, W was asleep.
> 
> To point out another theme that bothers me here: shouldn't an athletic, self-help lifestyle be incompatible with doing activities that involve drinking, smoking, etc?
> 
> W doesn't smoke, but given her recent interest in healthiness, shouldn't she and her friends want to avoid any place as unhealthy as a bar?
> 
> Has anyone else experienced this contradiction, where your spouse becomes involved in physical fitness, then wants to drink wine or stay up late on weekends?
> 
> I don't see the logic, but maybe someone like Calmwinds could explain...
> 
> Logan



Oef.......You don't see the logic, but I and others no doubt do. You have to take some intelligence test to see for yourself you are not doing well in the logic department.

To be hunting in the bar environment you want to look great, so that is where the simple logic lies. 

But tell me, do I understand that she went out on friday or saturday night, you sit alone at home, she comes home at twelve, showers and goes to sleep??

I could not take that, until the marriage has already long gone, and being separated would be normal. Man and wife need to be together going out, especially in the weekends. I don't understand the Beta behaviour. 

What are your feelings if you sit to wait till she comes home, are you not green of jealousy who she is with, having fun, laughing, dancing, etc. etc.???

:scratchhead:


----------



## See_Listen_Love

One more thing, see this from her perspective,

Even if she had a totally innocent GNO, she likely knows how this looks like to others. She knows a man with any selfrespect would not allow this, would go nuts about it and force her to come to her senses with this crazy behaviour.

Now your way of reacting, letting this happen, play soft, needing (suggest very mildly to go have sex.....) etc. etc.

Makes Her feel You don't deserve any respect. And you know what, she is right, every woman would think so.

So if this isn't already bad, it will be soon, this can't end good. And your behaviour is key now. Do you let this go, or do you man up??


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Robsia said:


> Getting aroused in your book is cheating? Really? What about masturbation? Is that cheating too? There is generally an element of arousal involved.
> 
> Does that work for men too? Ever time a guy gets a stiffie over a woman he's not married to he's cheating on his wife?
> 
> That's some world view.


Please don't interfere with theoretical discussions here.

This reaction is out of measure.


----------



## Robsia

As a woman, I can inform you that juices are secreted constantly to keep the nether regions moist. Dryness is uncomfortable. The existence of dampness does not necessarily mean sexual arousal and should not be taken as evidence of cheating.

I doubt most people would be able to tell by scent alone the difference between normal vaginal moisture and the juices secreted by orgasm, or the difference between the types and quantities of vaginal mucus at different points in the cycle.

Translation: Just because she has damp panties is not proof in and of itself that she has cheated.

I do agree that the whole set-up sounds iffy, but I had to chime in and clarify that point, which I think is an over-reaction and not necessarily helpful.

If my husband had waved my damp panties in my face and accused me of cheating because they were damp I would think he had gone insane.


----------



## RavenWolf

My husband and I have been married 12.5 years and have 2 children. I have been overweight for years and after getting a medical issue addressed this past December, I have started eating healthier and working out. I have lost 42 pounds since January. 

My husband has said often that he thinks I'm going to get all hot and leave him. He is genuinely concerned. However he is the one that had an affair years ago.

I'm losing weight and getting fit because I was tired of being sick and tired. I want to be the wife he can be proud of. I go to the gym with several other army wives once a week. The rest of the week I workout at home.

Even though I am all about eating better and getting healthy, I still love a glass of wine. I would love a girl's night in, where my girlfriend's and I get together for some innocent fun..oh wait! I do that once a month at our Ladies' book club! 

Sorry for any typos...using my phone!

I also want nicer clothes and sexy underwear. I have spent many years in baggy shirts due to my weight. 

Her working out, losing weight, wearing nicer clothes, and even her having an.occasional drink does not indicate an affair or even a potential affair.

What does become an issue is that it sounds like you enjoy very few activities together. You said her new changes have made you more inclined to plan romantic evenings. Do it. Plan a weekend getaway at a romantic bed and breakfast near beautiful scenery you both can walk/hike through.

It is imperative that you step up and create ways for you both to enjoy activities together. Offer to teach/take her to racquetball. 

Go to the same gym and workout at the same time. You can do weights or cardio while she does whatever she chooses. Tell her watching her get healthier is inspiring you to do the same.

I was told (on this forum) about a book called "His Needs, Her Needs" (Affair Proof Marriage) and I recommend you read it. I found it very helpful and eye opening. 

I also think GNO at bars are a recipe for disaster. If she wants to drink at a bar, you should be the one there with her. This is the snippet of your post that created an issue for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Do the bars in your area allow smoking? I thought almost all areas like that are now smoke free. My point is, you have been told things by your wife but you have no idea what the truth is. 
Really good vars cost about 50 bucks at walmart. Why are you putting yourself through this? I know you do not want to believe this, none of us could, but one way or the other you will have to figure out what is going on.

Why wasn't it you and her going out instead of you being the babysitter?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Robsia said:


> If my husband had waved my damp panties in my face and accused me of cheating because they were damp I would think he had gone insane.


Cool nice post. If my wife was staying out all hours of the night, three times a week, kids were coming to me saying "dad that is crap" and she thought I was insane for waving wet panties at her, she's captain of that insane boat.

Oh and our communication SUCKS.


----------



## Machiavelli

Everyone is calling the OP "beta", but these behaviors fall more into the Gamma category.  OP somehow managed to get married, probably because his wife was obese at the time and wanted to have legitimate children. OP has now served his purpose, except for the pending CS payments.

OP, are you putting us on? I ask, because while it's true that there are many men as befuddled as you about women, relatively few of them manage to actually marry.

How's that bodybuilding program coming? How about the Harley shopping? The new wardrobe?

That's what I thought.


----------



## Soifon

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Cool nice post. If my wife was staying out all hours of the night, three times a week, kids were coming to me saying "dad that is crap" and she thought I was insane for waving wet panties at her she's captain of that boat.
> 
> Oh and our communication SUCKS.


Well she is right. Maybe it's just a lack of knowledge of the female body IDK. Women have regular discharge from the vagina. So using damp underwear as your basis for accusation is just crazy. Mine would be damp most days of the week if I didn't use panty liners. It's hardly real evidence.


----------



## TRy

Robsia said:


> I doubt most people would be able to tell by scent alone the difference between normal vaginal moisture and the juices secreted by orgasm


 I guess you missed the part where I said that "If it looks suspicious hide it in a safe place for later testing". A lab would know the difference. 

I and most of the men on this forum have been married long enough to know that women do have normal vaginal moisture, I was talking about orgasms. In your original response to me you asked "Getting aroused in your book is cheating?" and talked about "masturbation", "an element of arousal involved", and men getting a "stiffie", so you knew that I was not talking about normal vaginal juices. You are being disingenuous to now say otherwise.


----------



## Robsia

Two separate issues.

a) Arousal by itself, even to the point of orgasm, is not cheating. Arousal caused by physical sexual contact with another person would be, yes. But arousal by itself is not. Fantasy also is not cheating. Men, every time you rub one out, do you think of your wife every time? I think not. Is it cheating? No. 

b) Damp underwear is not, by itself, evidence of either arousal or cheating for the reasons already given.

I wish people would read an entire post before commenting. I did say that there are other, iffy things to consider. I was saying that this BY ITSELF of not evidence of cheating and should not be considered as such.

Even going out with friends is not by itself proof of cheating. I like to go out every now and then for a drink and a dance. *I would actually much rather go with my husband*, but he doesn't like that kind of thing, so if I go, I go with my friend instead. Men see clubs as a place to meet women. Women see clubs as a place to have a drink and a dance and a laugh. If you're single, yes, to meet men also. But as a married woman I am quite capable of going out with my friend, having a good night and NOT having sex or any sort of sexual contact with another man. It's not that difficult. If a man approaches me to dance/buy me a drink etc. I simply smile, say thank you, but no thank you. And they go away.

I DO AGREE that going out 3x a week and NOT wanting to go out with your husband WOULD be unacceptable behaviour.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Soifon said:


> Well she is right. Maybe it's just a lack of knowledge of the female body IDK. Women have regular discharge from the vagina. So using damp underwear as your basis for accusation is just crazy. Mine would be damp most days of the week if I didn't use panty liners. It's hardly real evidence.


I know she is right. I know that there are perfectly legit reason to have wet panties as a woman. You guys keep parsing stuff to a ridiculous level.

My point is, he is showing extreme weakness and indecisiveness in his actions. 

He has all of the clues, all of these problems, all of these gut feelings, multiple late nights, a kid freaking out, and he keeps worrying about snooping.

If wet panties, after a late night of drinking, is the one way to make you communicate; do it. It is much easier to argue about the ridiculousness of this action, than wait until she cheated if it hasn't gone that far already.

Remember he is adverse to snooping and spying. Maybe a little insanity will make her see,"Holy crap there is an issue." It has worked for me when I have missed something. An insane irrational blow up has made me go "hmmm, dang I didn't realize I was doing that." Yes, people are that blind in relationships.


----------



## Iver

Logan 3,

Did your wife tell you where she was going and with who? I'm curious about the smoking as well - most places are non-smoking these days.

Also her friends she's out with - single or married? Most married women aren't out till midnight on Saturday night...

Earlier I've thought your concerns may be unwarranted but did believe you absolutely need to get fit (lose the muffin top) and re-engage with your wife, but I'm starting to think you are on thinner ice than you realize.

Tell your wife you want to step it up and go to the Gym with her.

Get the VAR.


----------



## Logan 3

Wow, some candid views today. That's what I signed up for... so I'm grateful. Being passive isn't acceptable now, I know that. I've ordered the MMSL and intend to learn as much as possible about being a better husband. I'm also proceeding with the idea of exercising more, whether at W's gym or elsewhere.

As for W, I won't sit back and do nothing. It's a matter of picking the lesser of two evils: One, going further than inspecting W's phone records and actually planting a spy device in her car. Two, having an upfront talk about the parameters of our M (i.e. what social activities are unacceptable when we don't do them together). People have made good points on both sides. Nobody knows the situation better than me, though, so I will ultimately have to weigh the pros and cons and decide.



Machiavelli said:


> OP somehow managed to get married, probably because his wife was obese at the time and wanted to have legitimate children. OP has now served his purpose, except for the pending CS payments.


I'm sad you assumed this, Machiavelli. You've been one of the more insightful posters here, so I'm surprised you'd put down me and W at the same time. For the record, she was never obese, and our relationship is probably a million times deeper than a cynical arrangement to procreate.

The DNA test is also off the table. At this point, W hasn't done anything explicitly wrong. There's no inappropriate male friend at work. There's no LD calls to an unrecognized number. To answer Shaggy, the underwear was a French brand (Le Joly?) that wasn't a thong but was sheerer than normal. I'm not going to inspect them for "stains" or "wetness". I hope other people can agree there's still better ways to proceed right now.



See_Listen_Love said:


> What are your feelings if you sit to wait till she comes home, are you not green of jealousy who she is with, having fun, laughing, dancing, etc. etc.??? :scratchhead:





TRy said:


> If your world view is that grind dancing at a bar with someone such that you actually orgasm in your underwear, is normal fun for married people, then yes we do have a different world view.


To clarify. W went for a drink with one friend, who as far as I know is married. She got back at 12. Was I concerned? Yes, especially after reading about people's exeperiences on this site. But I can guarantee you she wasn't "grind dancing" or "wetting her panties" during the course of the night. Maybe other posters have dealt with such graphic situations in real life, but it's not realistic in my case. 

We're talking about a 44 yr-old who had two left feet in college, and would usually turn red when I got her dancing at a wedding. The more likely scenario is that she spent the night gossiping with another fourty-something woman at a yuppie restaurant. What upsets me is that we didn't spend the night together.

I will definitely set aside time to decide on a course of action today. Either I'm going to purchase a "VAR", or I will come up with a series of issues to raise in a frank discussion with W about boundaries. Either way, I will post updates as usual.

Logan


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

*I will definitely set aside time to decide on a course of action today. Either I'm going to purchase a "VAR", or I will come up with a series of issues to raise in a frank discussion with W about boundaries. Either way, I will post updates as usual.

Logan*

I asked it before and I'll ask it again. Do you want to know exactly what your wife's been doing when she's not with you?

Allthough I think the VAR under the seat of her car is a good idea. Make sure that you secure it good with velco, GOOD AND TIGHT. There's no garantee that she'll do/say anything while in her vehicle, but this is a way to find out. Make sure you read/search here and /or google the best ways to do this.

If you are not compfortable with using a VAR then I would not try it. Me on the other hand, I would have to know if there was evidence that there was someone else before I started asking her questions. It's just the way I'm programed.

As far as having a talk with her. She was standoffish the last time you hinted around and asked questions about what she does at the gym and when she goes out(without you). If you start talking about your relationship and boundaries and she still pushes back, then I'd say you have a real problem.


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## phillybeffandswiss

You love your wife Logan. I'll tone it done a bit, but you can't go on thinking the same way. I am not saying she is cheating, but she is doing ALL of the things that head down that slippery slope.

Make sure you are discreet because she knows you too well.


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## Robsia

If it's attention she's after, maybe you should give her some. Take her out, wine and dine her a bit. Have some fun together. Maybe that's all she wants.


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## Iver

Logan,

I believe the odds are that you are correct in your evaluation of your wifes' behavior and this is something you can deal with effectively to move forward in a positive manner e.g. both of you becoming more fit...

But when you say you can guarantee what she is or isn't doing? In my life I have been truly shocked by behavoirs of people who did things I would have sworn would never happen. 

Good Luck.


----------



## tom67

Iver said:


> Logan,
> 
> I believe the odds are that you are correct in your evaluation of your wifes' behavior and this is something you can deal with effectively to move forward in a positive manner e.g. both of you becoming more fit...
> 
> But when you say you can guarantee what she is or isn't doing? In my life I have been truly shocked by behavoirs of people who did things I would have sworn would never happen.
> 
> Good Luck.


Unless you've had a pi follow her you have no idea exactly what she is doing now get a VAR in her car.


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## Cubby

Logan- The overall tone of your replies is that you "know your wife." One of the most common themes of this forum is that the betrayed husband couldn't believe their wife would ever be capable of doing quite a few things. So don't ever assume you know what she's capable of doing. Assume you know nothing except for the evidence you see with your own ears and you see with your own eyes. Now get that VAR velco'd to the car seat and FIND OUT WHAT SHE'S DOING.


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## doubletrouble

Cubby said:


> Logan- The overall tone of your replies is that you "know your wife." One of the most common themes of this forum is that the betrayed husband couldn't believe their wife would ever be capable of doing quite a few things. So don't ever assume you know what she's capable of doing. Assume you know nothing except for the evidence you see with your own ears and you see with your own eyes. Now get that VAR velco'd to the car seat and FIND OUT WHAT SHE'S DOING.


Not in a million years would I have ever guessed my wife would:

Have an affair with a married man (with children, even)
Have an affair with her boss
Screw around on me
I still have a hard time believing it, but she did all that.


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## Chaparral

She told what she was doing and with what person. Hopefully that's true. But......if she is doing something she should not be doing, and there are lots of red flags we have seen over and over, what she told you are lies. This story has been told over and over here with awful results.

In any event she has put her family on the back burner. Why?


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## See_Listen_Love

Logan, you are one of the more stubborn guys who don't want to see the red flags. So the possibility of an A keeps hanging in the shadows.

You are fixated with the candle on the table. You don't want to try to see what is in the shades, are it people there, or is it just your imagination.

You choose it's nothing there, but without looking.


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## See_Listen_Love

Btw the wet panties subject has to be dropped, enough is said.


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## warlock07

I think you should probably get this thread moved to "General Relationships" section. The answers are a bit biased on here


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## phillybeffandswiss

Yep, although bias is everywhere.


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## Shamwow

I know the "spying" is hard to do...though when you find something amiss it gets easier real quick.

Look, do what makes you happy. If you are getting the vibe that these changes are okay now, and she would never do anything to hurt you...fine. But remember that neither would my xw, neither would thousands of others' WS here...EVER do anything to hurt their spouses. Yet they did. Your mileage may vary, and I hope it does. But red flags are red flags and need to be looked into regardless.

So what does that mean? You may be just fine, barring needing to bone up on keeping up with your W and apparently, communicating with her in a way that she opens up and doesn't brush you off.

But tell you what - just for the love of all that is good and holy have her followed on one of her nights out. If nothing seems amiss, do it once more the next time. After that you either know what's up, or realize that you may be able to take relief that she's (probably) not straying. Or just do the VAR.

Just don't expect that this will resolve itself. Find the truth. Then get on with improving your life. Good luck...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Logan 3

Shamwow said:


> But tell you what - just for the love of all that is good and holy have her followed on one of her nights out. If nothing seems amiss, do it once more the next time. After that you either know what's up, or realize that you may be able to take relief that she's (probably) not straying. Or just do the VAR.


Thanks, Shamwow. By "have her followed" do you mean do it myself, ask a friend, or hire some kind of professional?

Logan


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## sandc

Use a PI if you can afford it.


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## Shamwow

PI would be the best, as they know what they're doing and won't be recognized. Second best would be a friend of yours, preferably one she doesn't know (hard to find, I know). Last resort would be you, but imagine the setback you'd face if you were discovered. She'd think quite lowly of such an attempt, especially if you don't pull it off.

For an evening of PI work you might pay a few hundred dollars (depending on where you live...Vegas, for example would be much more expensive than Wichita). And you can be at peace knowing your efforts will be done properly. Pay with cash or a card your W doesn't see the statement for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

We know you don't want to "resort" to this sort of thing, but you're here for a reason...because you have a feeling you can't shake and want to get to the bottom of it so you can move on knowing your decisions are based on the facts.

Everyone here hopes you find nothing's going on. If that's the case then you can just focus on upping your game to improve your marriage. First step is to find out if your marriage is what you believe it is. Find the truth and you can get rid of that knot in your stomach sooner than later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan 3 said:


> Thanks, Shamwow. By "have her followed" do you mean do it myself, ask a friend, or hire some kind of professional?
> 
> Logan


Well, this could get tricky if you don't hire a PI. If you do have a freind that your wife has never met, that you can trust. You could give him/her a jpg of her car, license plate and of your wife's face. Have him wait in the parking lot of where she suppose to meet her female freind(s) and go from there.

When she shows up, have him/her watch her walk into the place before going in themselves a few minutes later. Then they go in, sit at the bar, or a table and order a meal. Make sure he/she brings something to read so the meal takes longer to eat. They are ONLY there to observe. What time she gets there, who she meets and what time she leaves. Nothing else. No eaves dropping, or pictures. They only need glance in your wife's direction when someone approaches, or leaves where she's sitting.

My guess it if your wife's meeting someone other than her girfreind it'll either happen right when she gets there, or after she leaves. So he/she finishes the meal and wiats in his/her car for your wife to leave. When she leaves, he/she calls you to say so she just left at 23:30 hours and the PI'ing is done.

I say again, Under NO circumstances have this person take pictures, listen to, or follow you wife after she gets back in her car to leave. You just want to verify that she is indeed meeting her freind(s) and leaving alone. I can't stress this enough, the freind sits in their car and watches, orders a meal and glances only when a new person make contact then sits in their car and watches, until she leaves.

Of course, if she never shows up there, then that's a whole other ball game.

You're best bet is to find a freind thats been cheated on, themselves. We all tend to want help a potential BS. I wish I lived near you, I live for this stuff and would be happy to do this for you.


----------



## Iver

Groundpounder,

would using a cell phone camera be too risky? Most people eating alone have their phones glued to thier hands...taking a picture or video clip shouldn't be too over the top.

Maybe nix the black trenchcoat and newspaper with the eye holes cut in though.


----------



## weightlifter

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Sony var icdpx312 for two weeks. 50 bucks and two weeks gets you a pretty good idea.

RDMU came here with two red flags and ran full force into a year plus affair of his wife with a family "friend". When he came here he had only hiding a text and her not telling him where he knew she was.

Btw he and his wife had a best friends relationship, yet she was having an affair.

Within a week ha had far far more red flags.

You already failed the boundaries talk. Stop making it harder. [ smack head]


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Iver said:


> Groundpounder,
> 
> would using a cell phone camera be too risky? Most people eating alone have their phones glued to thier hands...taking a picture or video clip shouldn't be too over the top.
> 
> Maybe nix the black trenchcoat and newspaper with the eye holes cut in though.


Well, IF his wife is cheating, I would say yes. But we don't know that she doing anything like that yet.

My point is, get someone his wife doesn't recognize to observe her from the time that she gets to the parking lot, until she enters the building. Then go in a few minutes after her, order a meal that will take a while to eat and only "glance" over if a new person shows up to her table/spot on the bar. Then after said "long" meal, this person waits in his/her car to see if after her girlfriend(s) leave, does she meet anyone else.

Also, if she leaves at 9:00 and doesn’t get home until 12:00, then a real PI needs to called. Or at least VAR up the works and the rest of drill.

There's no need to take the risk of getting caught snapping pictures if she's only meeting a women friend(s). Now if a male were to show up, it would need to be determined if he is there to meet his wife, or the wife's friend. I would say that it would be known within about 10 minutes, who he's there to primarily see.

Again, at this early point there is no need to take the risk of getting pictures. If something unusual is observed, the observer friend reports this to our "possible" BS and he goes from there.

Remember, his wife has been meeting her girlfriend(s) for a drink for quite a while now. If there is something inappropriate going on, it's probably been happening for more than a few weeks. Our "possible" BS will have better opportunities to gather more concrete evidence if this is the case.

And of course, she may be doing nothing wrong(Man, do I hope this is the case) and he shall never speak of any suvailence that he's done to come to this conclusion, TO ANYONE(but us of course).


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## Chaparral

There are so many people here whose spouse is cheating with a friend, how would you pick one to follow your wife?


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## sandc

chapparal said:


> There are so many people here whose spouse is cheating with a friend, how would you pick one to follow your wife?


Touche'.


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## krismimo

I think it is way too soon to do PI and wasted money unless she has done something specific, he hasn't mentioned any incriminating emails or texts, and just because she works out a lot and wears tight fitting workout clothes doesn't mean she is cheating. I also work in this field as well and there are a lot of skewed views here. 

Talk to her about the GNO if you feel she goes out too often or too late. You have not spoken to her about it so she doesnt realise its a problem. And no to a certain degree working out is a very personal thing she might just want to work out on her own, and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying she is not acting odd but I'am saying I know plenty of couples who workout on their own because they prefer it that way. 

Do this in phases and when you feel comfortable.

1.) Look at her phone again look for weird texts if you think you hit jack pot then proceed.

2.) Look at emails see if you can get access to her emails if something looks weird then proceed.

3.) Place a var in the car, now if you can't get access to her email like I said in two then place the var as your step 2.

4.) If you find out even more evidence you can proceed to a PI for different reasons.

5.) Confront: You do this last when you have all the evidence you need. You don't reveal all your sources just give a little to get her to confess IF there is anything to confess to. 

Get through this phase first then depending on how she reacts and also depends on how you feel you may or may not want to go into exposure if there is affair. Just get through this first.


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## Shamwow

krismimo said:


> I think it is way too soon to do PI and wasted money unless she has done something specific, he hasn't mentioned any incriminating emails or texts, and just because she works out a lot and wears tight fitting workout clothes doesn't mean she is cheating. I also work in this field as well and there are a lot of skewed views here.
> 
> Talk to her about the GNO if you feel she goes out too often or too late. You have not spoken to her about it so she doesnt realise its a problem.


With all due respect, he has. Maybe not with the proper tone from the get go, but she shrugs off his concerns.

PI could take care of his doubts in a night or two.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

I think keylogger and VAR should be the first options. he hasn't used them yet.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

That's was my piont. He doesn't know if he needs a PI yet. There may not be any thing bad going on during her GNOs.

He needs to know if she's meeting, talking, or flirting with other males at where ever she goes on GNO. You don't need to pay a PI for this. You're not gathering evidence, you're only seeing if she makes contact with any males during GNO. That's it.

Then go from there.

This one hits home for me as that's how it all started in my personal nightmare. Only for me it was my ex's pool(billards) league. She actually was telling me about a nice guy she met, the first few weeks she went. Then slowly I stopped hearing about him. You can guess the why.

I know personally how GNOs can ruin a marriage. I think finding out who his wife interacts with(male, or female) at the meeting place is what needs to be know right now. Paying a PI for this is overkill and a half, IMO.


----------



## krismimo

Shamwow said:


> With all due respect, he has. Maybe not with the proper tone from the get go, but she shrugs off his concerns.
> 
> PI could take care of his doubts in a night or two.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would too unless there is proof. I'm not saying she is innocent but there is certain way he has to go about things that is why I suggested it doing this in phases. And hiring a PI doesn't guarantee that something would be found right away. He should gather the info first if there is any then use the PI as a last resort or to confirm what he has already found.


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## Shamwow

Agreed. Just saying he needs to do something besides ask her questions about who she's with and what they did (which she shrugs off), and let her keep his phone from him when he asks to use it for a sec ("I have 4 bars"). She has been UNforthcoming when he makes simple gestures. PI takes the "snooping", which he's uncomfortable with, out of his hands. If he has a little cash to burn, maybe it nets him info. If not, then he needs to do the other personal options (VAR, text recovery, etc).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

Shamwow said:


> Agreed. Just saying he needs to do something besides ask her questions about who she's with and what they did (which she shrugs off), and let her keep his phone from him when he asks to use it for a sec ("I have 4 bars"). She has been UNforthcoming when he makes simple gestures. PI takes the "snooping", which he's uncomfortable with, out of his hands. If he has a little cash to burn, maybe it nets him info. If not, then he needs to do the other personal options (VAR, text recovery, etc).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would want to rule out another man before anything else and go from there.


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## Logan 3

Hi All, 

I've decided to go with a 2-prong strategy for now...

Part one: Like RavenWolf and Robsia suggest, I'm taking W out for a romantic "date" tonight.

We'll grab Italian food at a cosy restaurant we both like, then wind our way through the surrounding neighborhood, taking in the sights while we walk downtown. 

I already have a nice bottle of wine chilling at home. If everything goes well, we'll have more refreshments when we come home, then hopefully get frisky later.

Part two: Like Weightlifter recommends, I'll pick up a Sony icdpx312 VAR. I found a local store where I can buy one for cash, so there will be no record of it being shipped to our home. 

Any suggestions on the exact right way to use this (Bryanp, Chapparal, Cubby, Groundpounder, Iver, Shaggy)? I'm already conflicted about using a spy device on W. I'd never forgive myself if she found it, and walked out before I even had a chance to fix our M.

Putting the PI idea on ice for now...

Logan


----------



## warlock07

Start with the keylogger and recovering text records


----------



## Cubby

Logan 3 said:


> Any suggestions on the exact right way to use this (Bryanp, Chapparal, Cubby, Groundpounder, Iver, Shaggy)? I'm already conflicted about using a spy device on W. I'd never forgive myself if she found it, and walked out before I even had a chance to fix our M.
> 
> Logan


I've never used the VAR, but from what everyone says here, you can get heavy-duty Velcro to attach to the VAR, and strap it underneath her car seat. Don't just place it on the floor underneath the seat. Someone did that once and when coming to a sudden stop, the VAR slid out from under the seat and the wife saw it. 

Logan, it's good you're spending time with your wife. You need to spend 10-15 hours a week doing stuff with her (that doesn't include watching TV), to keep that bond alive.


----------



## Dday

Logan, 

I had the same thoughts about my wife. We were 14 when we met, started dating at 17, married at 25. 3 kids. Never thought she would be capable of cheating, she is just too good of a person. 

She started working out, looks better than she ever has even before the 3 kids, she started going out more and I had several red flags. I was insecure and asked flat out if she ever had sex with anyone else. Her response " I wouldn't even know how too" fast forward a few months and I finally discovered a 9 month PA. 

I hope it's not the case and maybe your efforts can stop anything from physically happening but I would be vigilant. I wish I found this site when I had my initial worries. 

I would look at her phone, Facebook account for private messages and email address. Look at phone records for long conversations with strange numbers and read Mmslp. Your wife is getting better looking and hanging out with better looking people, you have to step up your game to keep her. I know it sounds crazy because she married you and that is suppose to be a lifetime commitment but I found out the hard way that isn't the case. 

Good luck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BrockLanders

Do you live in the US? I only ask because the only place where you can smoke in a bar around here are strip clubs, as the russians probably pay off the cops. You haven't been able to smoke in bars anywhere around here in a decade.


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## Soifon

BrockLanders said:


> Do you live in the US? I only ask because the only place where you can smoke in a bar around here are strip clubs, as the russians probably pay off the cops. You haven't been able to smoke in bars anywhere around here in a decade.


Where I live smoking is allowed in bars. The deciding factor is food service. Any place that food is served isn't considered a bar and therefore is non-smoking.


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## Iver

I would be surprised if you do discover something going on with your wife and an OM...I just don't get the vibe based on what you stated so far. I hope I'm right.

But I'll admit that I've been royally gobsmacked before so maybe my judgement is so hot

But what I think is a real concern is the change your wife has experienced - losing that much weight and becoming a much more attractive woman is going to create a whole new dynamic for you and her. 

You must must must keep up with her. If you haven't done so yet you have to get MMSLP by Athol Kay.

On a positive note this can be an opportunity to make your marriage both stronger and more enjoyable for both of you.

I'm rooting for you as are many other here.

Good Luck!


----------



## Logan 3

Iver said:


> You must must must keep up with her. If you haven't done so yet you have to get MMSLP by Athol Kay.


MMSL Primer is on the way! Still hasn't arrived, though, so I'll be flying solo tonight. I think the key is just to be confident, unpredictable and most of all... fun! Will let you know how it works out, anyway.

Logan


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan 3 said:


> MMSL Primer is on the way! Still hasn't arrived, though, so I'll be flying solo tonight. I think the key is just to be confident, unpredictable and most of all... fun! Will let you know how it works out, anyway.
> 
> Logan


Tell me you're putting a VAR in her car before she goes out for "GNO" tonight...

If anything is happening, I'm willing to bet it's when she suppose to be going out with her girlfreind. You can romance her all you want, but if she's already having an affair, it's not going to change anything.

Especially in light of the way she's been acting and treating you.

Good luck.


----------



## Iver

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Tell me you're putting a VAR in her car before she goes out for "GNO" tonight...
> 
> If anything is happening, I'm willing to bet it's when she suppose to be going out with her girlfreind. You can romance her all you want, but if she's already having an affair, it's not going to change anything.
> 
> Especially in light of the way she's been acting and treating you.
> 
> Good luck.


Logan and the wife are going out tonight I believe. Not a GNO...


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Iver said:


> Logan and the wife are going out tonight I believe. Not a GNO...


MMSL Primer is on the way! Still hasn't arrived, though, *so I'll be flying solo tonight.* I think the key is just to be confident, unpredictable and most of all... fun! Will let you know how it works out, anyway.

Logan 

I misunderstood this as it was her GNO night. Thanks for correcting me. For some reason I thought GNO was Friday nights... It must be Saturdays.

Thanks.


----------



## CEL

So far you have no proof just a gut feeling. I think you are on the right track I would try to get all the text messages and then go with a VAR in the car. I would also keep doing the romantic thing you might also bring up to her that you feel disconnected with her and would like to do more stuff together. This does not indicate that you suspect an affair it is just what should be standard relationship stuff. I had a time where me and my wife where just no connecting and we felt we needed to start doing thing together. Given you girl I would suggest the following.

1: Every week a date night. Mandatory do fun stuff drinks, movie, dinner whatever.

2: Start working out together. She knows how to get in shape and is passionate about it well start asking her for help and that you want to get in shape as well. Make this a bonding thing not a separate thing. Also do this for you.

3: Compliment her a lot it sounds like she has done a lot of work on herself let her know you see it and appreciate it. Also ask for tips she deserves to have a fit husband just like you deserve to have fit wife.

You have separated because you do not share your passions you need to put some work in to start doing that and it seems like her passions could also help you out if this is more than it seems.


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## Logan 3

warlock07 said:


> Start with the keylogger and recovering text records


I'm going to skip the keylogger idea and proceed with installing a VAR. It's better picking a single course of action and moving forward. I'm proactive by nature, and don't want to spend too much time weighing the options at every little juncture.

Date night went well. The food was excellent, even if I had to get "assertive" and tell W to put away her phone during the meal. It stopped raining in time for our walk, so downtown felt very fresh, lit up by the buildings and street lights... We skipped the chilled wine, going right upstairs for a quick but effective session in bed. We were both so satisfied afterward that we fell into a deep sleep.



GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> For some reason I thought GNO was Friday nights... It must be Saturdays.


Saturday nights aren't "officially" for GNOs, btw. Recently, it's just worked out that way. This weekend was an example of how it can be hard putting my foot down. How am I supposed to tell W she can't go see her friend, when we already had a perfectly nice evening the day before, and I'm spending part of the night doing activities with the kids? 

Saturday, W ended up watching the Great Gatsby with the same friend from last week... Around 10:00, she texts to ask if it "disrupted" me when she came home late last Saturday. She also asks how much longer I'm planning to stay up. This was odd, in the sense that W rarely texts me. I wrote back saying I would go to bed shortly. In reality, I stayed up reading so that I could be awake whenever she got in.

She came home around 11:30 - earlier than last week. My first impression was that she was dressed nicely for watching a film. Taking Machiavelli's advice, I quizzed W about the plot, the performances, etc. She could discuss them in detail, but was annoyed I wanted her to do so. I asked whether she and her friend did any other activities after watching the movie. W explained that they got a coffee and talked about the film. She said it sarcastically, implying that she shouldn't need permission to do something so ordinary.

Unless anyone has last minute advice about how to use the VAR, I'm going to velcro it to her car seat early tomorrow morning. The MMSLP also arrived. Some of the concepts are completely opposite to my natural way of thinking. I'll have to study them better before trying to apply anything to my actual M.

Will post updates as usual...

Logan


----------



## warlock07

She knows you are concerned.

The keylogger thing, once you have it installed, you can always choose not to look. Don't half ass stuff when you are planning to snoop on her. Additional evidence won't hurt.


----------



## weightlifter

>Around 10:00, she texts to ask if it "disrupted" me when she came home late last Saturday. She also asks how much longer I'm planning to stay up. This was odd, in the sense that W rarely texts me. 

My first impression was that she was dressed nicely for watching a film. <

Did anyone else see the above and think "OH SH**"?

NO MORE TALKS for a while. DONT drive her underground.

RDMU went in half assed on his first confront and ended up with 6 weeks of misery before confront.

KEEP UP WITH THE DATE THING THO.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan 3 said:


> Edited down
> 
> Saturday, W ended up watching the Great Gatsby with the same friend from last week... Around 10:00, she texts to ask if it "disrupted" me when she came home late last Saturday. She also asks how much longer I'm planning to stay up. This was odd, in the sense that W rarely texts me. I wrote back saying I would go to bed shortly. In reality, I stayed up reading so that I could be awake whenever she got in.
> 
> She came home around 11:30 - earlier than last week. My first impression was that she was dressed nicely for watching a film. Taking Machiavelli's advice, I quizzed W about the plot, the performances, etc. She could discuss them in detail, but was annoyed I wanted her to do so. I asked whether she and her friend did any other activities after watching the movie. W explained that they got a coffee and talked about the film. She said it sarcastically, implying that she shouldn't need permission to do something so ordinary.
> 
> Unless anyone has last minute advice about how to use the VAR, I'm going to velcro it to her car seat early tomorrow morning.Logan


An opportunity lost...

Every day you contemplate instead of really finding out what she's doing during GNO is another day lost.

Btw, women sometimes have affiars with other women.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

And if she is just meeting her female friend all these times. Going to movies, drinking coffee, or wine and talking - How do you know this friend of hers is a friend of your marriage?

Have you every met this friend? Is she divorced? Is she married, but cheating on her husband? Is she even attracted to men?

Your wife gets dressed up to go to a movie with a female friend. Gets agitated when ever you start asking about this female friend.

Even if she is really has been meeting a women all these times, what she's been saying and/or doing while with her is probably nothing you'd approve of. This is why she pushes back so hard when ever you question her on this.


----------



## anchorwatch

Logan 3 said:


> The MMSLP also arrived. Some of the concepts are completely opposite to my natural way of thinking. I'll have to study them better before trying to apply anything to my actual M.
> 
> Will post updates as usual...
> 
> Logan


Logan, you are behind the curve. You need to catch up. 

When your done with Athol's book. Start reading Dr. Glover's NMMNG. 

Here it is for you....

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

Weekend nights out, with out your spouse? Isn't she going out on her own enough already? 
IMO this is disrespect.


----------



## sandc

Sorry if I missed it, are we certain this "friend" is even female?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

sandc said:


> Sorry if I missed it, are we certain this "friend" is even female?


As far as I can tell, he hasn't even verified this yet.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

Your wife is spending her weekend drinking, watching movies, having fun and what ever with a friend you never met.REALLY?

Whether she is cheating or not dont you feel this is weired? At least do you know the full name and phone number of this friend?


----------



## sandc

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> As far as I can tell, he hasn't even verified this yet.


Ah. And we've never seen men's phone numbers listed under a woman's name in a WW's phone... have we?


----------



## Iver

To echo what everyone else is saying...who is this friend of hers? Am I right in thinking you've never met her and you are not 100% sure she's married or not?

One suggestion, that ties into your attempt to re-engage your wife is to tell her you-all should plan on getting together for drinks with your wife's friend and her husband - tell her you think that'd be fun Saturday night. See how this goes over. If she thinks that's a great idea, well good. If she shoots that suggestion down, well, that should be a real concern for you.

Make it a positive experience rather than a drag which is what drilling her about who/what/where/when will quickly turn into.

Also, do you know where she went for coffee? The same restaurant lounge/bar as before? (Maybe check credit card reciepts?) Just in case she mentions a place that closes at 10 pm when she gets home at 11:30...

Do you have the password for her phone? If so check her texting history. If you don't have it, well, that is not good - and you are going to have to get it one way or another. 

There is absolutely no reason your wife should have a password you don't have access to. 

As for your "get in shape" program - set a concrete goal with metrics. Two months should be more than enough time to lose at least 10 pounds of fat and put a couple of pounds of muscle on. 

Again, I'm not convinced anything inappropriate is actually going on right now but the environment (out with a girlfriend at a lounge/bar Saturday night) is certainly not beneficial to the long term health of your marriage.


----------



## Idyit

Logan - You are getting world class advice from a lot of folks that are pushing you to resolve two issues. 

1) You are too BETA
This is why you are asking so many questions and have so few answers of your own. Read MMSL and No More Mr Nice Guy. I get that you're both nerdy and ****. So what! Mr. Nerd with less flab, more muscle AND confidence will be more attractive to her. (or someone else)

2) You won't just find out what the heck is going on.
Your scenario is almost exactly my experience a year ago. Spy!! Leaving bathroom stuff out of it, I have no issue with VARs, phone records, find my Iphone, text recovery or basic computer forensics. If nothing else you'll be more certain where you stand.

-- Regarding your info gathering, please keep it to yourself until you're pretty certain things have gone south. If you find nothing, keep quiet. My wife had suspicions of me several years ago. Her evidence = two receipts. One that included a salad for lunch. (Clearly not my MO) The other said, "Smack my ass and call me Sally". Number one was a business lunch, the second was a bottle of hot sauce! The moral is don't show your cards or bluff unless you're sure you have a good hand.

~Passio~


----------



## Logan 3

Idyit said:


> 2) You won't just find out what the heck is going on.
> Your scenario is almost exactly my experience a year ago. Spy!! Leaving bathroom stuff out of it, I have no issue with VARs, phone records, find my Iphone, text recovery or basic computer forensics. If nothing else you'll be more certain where you stand.


Thanks. So I understand, were you the BS or the WS?


----------



## anchorwatch

Logan, Your W is elevating herself. If you don't catch up she will leave you in the rear view mirror. It is project one now to get up to speed.


----------



## CEL

Logan I would still encourage you to insert yourself more firmly into her life. Besides Date Night which should happen every week you need to find other ways to make your lives more a one life and less of two people who occasionally spend time together. Have you asked her to help you work out more? Have you talked about the things she is passionate about when my girl comes back from pottery class I always engage her in communication you may get the standard "Okay" but then it is up to you to continue the conversation you have to direct the conversation to get her to open up. Come up with things you both enjoy that are beyond just doing Date Night. Me and my girl like to go to the zoo or aquarium or just taking long drives and talking with good music playing. Maybe have movie night over at your place with some friends. If she is going out why are you not going with her? Does she not want you to? Or have you just kind of decided that it is not something you want to do? Marriages are made of shared experience that creates both a bond and stuff to talk about later. When you start living separate lives "which looks like you might be doing" then you start losing that bond. My girl loves to go to indie films I really do not like having to read subtitles but when she wants to go I go "don't do this if you are just going to be resentful or look at it as a job" I go because I know she wants me to and because I want to spend time with her and sometimes that means you do something that may not be your first choice.


----------



## anchorwatch

He and his W should be spending 15 to 20 hours a week together, w/out kids and not in front of TV.


----------



## Chaparral

Since 1980, I know of one couple that has survived regular GNOs. Good luck with that.


----------



## Logan 3

The VAR was installed Wednesday morning. Everything went smoothly, but now I worry W will find the device and things will spiral downward. At least I've taken action, though. How long does it usually take to pick up relevant info this way?

MMSLP is a slow read, mainly because of how counterintuitive some of the concepts are. I'm still trying to grasp how a cold, aloof attitude can "charm" an intelligent, compassionate woman...

For those who asked, W's friend from the last 2 weeks is a married woman in her forties with a 12 year-old son. I checked about going on a double date together. W's heard too many complaints about the other husband being unsociable and lazy, so it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Somebody asked about smoking laws. Outside of specialty cigar places, smoking is prohibited in most establishments here, but people will still step outside when their friends want to have a cigarette... I assume?

As far as exercise, I've signed up for an alumnus gym membership at my old college. I'll be able to play racquetball, as well as do cardio and free weight exercises at a campus near our house. This is better than trying to get involved at W's gym. She's already shown discomfort with my interest in her recreational activities, so I'd prefer to just stay dark while letting the VAR do its thing...

Logan


----------



## sandc

Clothing shouldn't pick up a heavy cigarette smell outdoors. Where could she be going that smoke could permeate her clothing? Don't tell us where she went, tell us where she could go to get that smell on her.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Logan 3 said:


> The VAR was installed Wednesday morning. Everything went smoothly, but now I worry W will find the device and things will spiral downward. At least I've taken action, though. How long does it usually take to pick up relevant info this way?
> 
> MMSLP is a slow read, mainly because of how counterintuitive some of the concepts are. I'm still trying to grasp how a cold, aloof attitude can "charm" an intelligent, compassionate woman...
> 
> For those who asked, W's friend from the last 2 weeks is a married woman in her forties with a 12 year-old son. I checked about going on a double date together. W's heard too many complaints about the other husband being unsociable and lazy, so it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.
> 
> Somebody asked about smoking laws. Outside of specialty cigar places, smoking is prohibited in most establishments here, but people will still step outside when their friends want to have a cigarette... I assume?
> 
> As far as exercise, I've signed up for an alumnus gym membership at my old college. I'll be able to play racquetball, as well as do cardio and free weight exercises at a campus near our house. This is better than trying to get involved at W's gym. She's already shown discomfort with my interest in her recreational activities, so I'd prefer to just stay dark while letting the VAR do its thing...
> 
> Logan


You are getting on the right track now, but believe me, you are not too smart in these things. But you can learn


----------



## Cubby

Logan 3 said:


> The VAR was installed Wednesday morning. Everything went smoothly, but now I worry W will find the device and things will spiral downward. At least I've taken action, though. How long does it usually take to pick up relevant info this way?


If she has an affair partner, there's a great chance she's talking to him constantly. I'd want to listen daily. She probably won't find it if it's velcro'd securely 



> MMSLP is a slow read, mainly because of how counterintuitive some of the concepts are. I'm still trying to grasp how a cold, aloof attitude can "charm" an intelligent, compassionate woman...


Logan, your intelligent compassionate wife doesn't seem to like hanging out with you all that much. Time to rock your marriage. Make her head spin a little, make her wonder....



> For those who asked, W's friend from the last 2 weeks is a married woman in her forties with a 12 year-old son. I checked about going on a double date together. W's heard too many complaints about the other husband being unsociable and lazy, so it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.


I'll bet a lot of time is spent complaining about spouses. Yep, that includes you Logan. It doesn't look like either spouse is wanted at her girls night out events. I wonder why?



> Somebody asked about smoking laws. Outside of specialty cigar places, smoking is prohibited in most establishments here, but people will still step outside when their friends want to have a cigarette... I assume?


I don't think she'd get smoke on her clothes from being outside with a smoker. Could she be inside a car with a smoker?



> As far as exercise, I've signed up for an alumnus gym membership at my old college. I'll be able to play racquetball, as well as do cardio and free weight exercises at a campus near our house. This is better than trying to get involved at W's gym. She's already shown discomfort with my interest in her recreational activities, so I'd prefer to just stay dark while letting the VAR do its thing...
> 
> Logan


Strange that she doesn't want to exercise with you. (not strange if there's a boyfriend at the gym) That would be a great activity to share together. My wife and I regularly work out together at the gym (NOW we do....her being alone at the gym led to bad behavior.....) 

Logan, I'm hoping you find some answers through the VAR or any other method. Stay with the MMSL. You really sound like you can use the education.


----------



## Robsia

I've been following this thread for some time to find out what happens.

I'm really hoping that you find out she is NOT cheating on you.

But I do think that she is possibly disillusioned with the marriage so maybe, even if she is not cheating, you still have some work to do - both of you - to put back that spark.


----------



## weightlifter

Robsia said:


> I've been following this thread for some time to find out what happens.
> 
> I'm really hoping that you find out she is NOT cheating on you.
> 
> But I do think that she is possibly disillusioned with the marriage so maybe, even if she is not cheating, you still have some work to do - both of you - to put back that spark.


I hope it's nothing also. What is our happy ending rate? 5%?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Logan 3 said:


> W's heard too many complaints about the other husband being unsociable and lazy, so it's unlikely to happen anytime soon.


 Yeah, and I wonder if he heard the same thing about you. At least you know they trash their husbands at the GNOs.


----------



## Iver

Logan, you're off to a good start.

Just remember, 75% of getting in shape is diet. Don't be one of those guys who piddles around the gym for three months and looks exactly the same. 

Hit the weights hard and plan on doing a serious Paleo challenge for 30 days. You can lose up to 10 lbs of fat in a month if you work it - you'll look significantly better at the end of even the first month.

I don't know if GNO is now a Saturday tradition with your wife but you need to shake that up in a big way - maybe tell her you're bored and you'll meet them for a drink next time they're out. 

The key here is the word "tell" which is different from the word "ask".

You know the old saying: "Hope for the best but prepare for the worst"

You need to start preparing.


----------



## Logan 3

Iver said:


> Logan, you're off to a good start. Just remember, 75% of getting in shape is diet. Don't be one of those guys who piddles around the gym for three months and looks exactly the same. Hit the weights hard and plan on doing a serious Paleo challenge for 30 days. You can lose up to 10 lbs of fat in a month if you work it - you'll look significantly better at the end of even the first month.


Thanks for the advice. I asked a young guy who works at the gym for pointers, and he recommended more or less the same things. I'm going to try approaching this carefully and consistently. I want it to be a long-term project, so I won't blow myself out right away.

Speaking of long-term projects, is it normal for VARs not to yield anything for long periods of time? Mine's been recording since Wednesday, and hasn't picked up anything noteworthy so far. The only information I've learned is that W does listen to Top 40 dance music for pleasure now - driving around by herself, not even trying to look cool or impress friends. I almost had a headache after listening to that part of the tape.

Regarding the MMSL / "Dating W" part of the plan, I didn't make as much headway as I'd like this week. Our kids were really into seeing the new Star Trek movie as a family, so that's what we did Friday night. Saturday, W wasn't feeling well. I went to my gym in the afternoon, then barbecued us a nice dinner while the kids were out later.

Regarding GNOs, W didn't even feel up to leaving the house Saturday night. There's no standing agreement to have "girls nights" on Saturdays, but maybe it's still a good sign she chose to stay home. As for cigarette smoke, my experience is that it doesn't take much for clothing to pick up a tobacco scent. Sometimes I'd smell like cigarettes after just sitting in my Dad's recliner at home. Over time, hopefully this is another question the VAR can clear up too.

Thanks everyone, I'll update as usual

Logan


----------



## Chaparral

Depending on the var, you may try adjusting the setting in youf own car. Some make noises that can be turned off too. Study your instruction book. A beep can give the game away.

There are fliters for certain noises.


----------



## sandc

Perhaps SHE is smoking?

I'm around the smokers outside at work but my clothes don't smell of smoke when I get home. Sorry to keep keying in on it but something about it is just nagging at me.


----------



## Chaparral

I don't believe you are going to come home smelling of smoke standing outside. I believe they are in someones car or home.

I sometimes work around people smoking around construvtion sites, inside, and my wife would ask about the smell since she is allergic and can smell it a mile away.


----------



## Chaparral

Are you not hearing any phone convos at all?


----------



## sandc

Maybe that's why she has the radio so loud?


----------



## Shaggy

You might try tracking her car on one of these GNO.

It's easy if you have a GPS tracker on your own phone. Simply turn it onto silent mode, and no vibration, and leave it in you wife's car "accidentally", say in a seat back pocket on Sat afternoon.

Then you can track it when she goes out that night.

Cig smoke takes more than passing by a smoker standing outside. It requires being in the same room, or car as a smoker, or extended close promimity.

Maybe the "friend" is a smoker and they are spending time together in a car or other place and the friend is smoking?


----------



## warlock07

TBH, I don't think this is a infidelity issue. VAR should be a last case scenario kinda thing when you are really suspicious of your SO. Without that, it is a huge breach of privacy. Logan, have a deadline if plan to continue VARing her.


----------



## Robsia

FTR my in-laws smoke and when we visited, even though they would go and smoke in the garage which was through the living room, hall, and kitchen, I would STILL come out of their house smelling of smoke. It was quite disgusting.


----------



## Rags

Depending on how sensitive your sense of smell is, sometimes you can smell even if they've walked past someone smoking. Occasionally I've noted the presence of cigarette smoke, when I've been in a car, and someone is smoking _in teh car in front_ (I kid you not - I'm asthmatic and very sensitive to cigarette smoke.)

So it can be picked up in innocuous cases ..... but if it's very strong, not so much.


----------



## bravenewworld

sandc said:


> It's highly probably that she is just learning to enjoy herself after making kids and career a focus for so many years. However, she's looking good now after how many years? She is having men hit on her. Does she know how to deal with that? Does she have good boundaries? Two nights a week with girlfriends, how many nights a week does she go out with you?
> 
> I can't tell you how many threads started here in the CWI section with the husband having a "gut feeling" that something just wasn't right. What does your gut tell you? Most of those husbands found out that their gut was right. I hope for your family's sake that your gut is wrong. But you won't know unless you investigate.
> 
> *In the mean time, start asking her out. Take her dancing. Make love to her under the stars. Rock her world. Give her something to talk about with those friends of hers.*


To me is the best advice. Putting a VAR in her car and tracking her sounds really premature for what you've described thus far. And to be honest - a bit creepy. When the signs are there I get taking it to that extreme place, but you're seeing more yellow and orange flags than red ones IMHO. 

She could be working out to get that endorphin feel good rush and look good for herself. Not everyone is working out to attract the opposite sex. You should be secure enough in your marriage that side effect of her looking extra good doesn't make you feel insecure. The shower thing doesn't seem weird to me either - a lot of people have to take a shower after being out. It's the first thing I do when I get home so I don't smell like smoke, sweat, and car exhaust. 

Anyway I'm rooting for you she's just in a transition phase with no "funny business" attached. Sounds like she is growing as a person. That's not a bad thing.


----------



## Chaparral

But in this instance there are a lot of red flags. Instead of dismissing them, they keep multiplying.

A gno every week is absurd, multiple gnos is the kiss of death sooner or later for any relationship.

Even the kids are distressed.

At this rate, infidelity or not, the relationship is toast. Its hard to believe she doesn't see this coming. Its starting to look like she doesn't care.


----------



## Cubby

Logan seems surprised that his wife has been listening to dance music in the car. So that's new behavior for her. I think the red flag goes up a bit on that one. Listening to dance music might make her feel like she's in that party mood. Could it be that she's going to dance clubs for her GNOs?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

Oh, come on. I listen to the top 40 in the car. Doesn't mean I'm having an affair. That's reaching a tad.


----------



## Cubby

Robsia said:


> Oh, come on. I listen to the top 40 in the car. Doesn't mean I'm having an affair. That's reaching a tad.


But it's new behavior. When my wife was unfaithful, I noticed the station set to that same dance music, when she didn't listen to it before. Later, she admitted that she listened to it because she it made her feel sassy and flirty. 

I might be completely wrong, but I think it's all part of "the new Mrs. Logan." Now we just have to find out just what that means.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

^Is it though? Maybe she listened to different music when he was in the car out of consideration for his feelings. Maybe on her own she listens to what SHE wants to listen to.

My WH would frequently refer to my choice of music as "that crap you listen to" so if we were in the car together I would put it to his choice of station, just for a quiet life.


----------



## BobSimmons

If she was listening to rap music would it mean she was seeing a black guy? Or maybe some sexy salsa, means she thinking about hot mambo..or maybe she listens to music..because...it's music..and it comes on the radio...

God forbid you want to try something different in life or better yourself.


----------



## Cubby

BobSimmons said:


> If she was listening to rap music would it mean she was seeing a black guy? Or maybe some sexy salsa, means she thinking about hot mambo..or maybe she listens to music..because...it's music..and it comes on the radio...
> 
> God forbid you want to try something different in life or better yourself.


On its own, is it a possible concern? Probably not. But when it's part of all the other changes Logan has been noticing, yes there could be something to it. C'mon, this one's on virtually every "signs of a cheating spouse" list. Changes in normal behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

I'm hoping there is no other man. I'm also hoping her gnos aren't her and her buddies playing with boys at cougarville dance club. We have definitely seen that before.


----------



## bravenewworld

BobSimmons said:


> If she was listening to rap music would it mean she was seeing a black guy? Or maybe some sexy salsa, means she thinking about hot mambo..or maybe she listens to music..because...it's music..and it comes on the radio...
> 
> God forbid you want to try something different in life or better yourself.


I agree. To me it just sounds like she is having some fun now that your kids are older. If you are curious what happens on GNO show up and surprise her. Buy everyone a round of drinks. You'll get on her new friend's good side and scope out if you need to be worried - or not at all. 

I think if you keep using the VAR you are going to regret it, especially if you continue not finding anything.


----------



## Iver

I think the VAR is more of a diagnostic tool - you are confirming that she's not up to something obvious with a guy or planning something inappropriate during a GNO.

Most likely it's not going to pick up damning evidence which we need to remember is a good thing.

But simply put a married woman shouldn't be making a habit Saturday night GNO's. That's like driving drunk - sooner or later it's going to bite you in the *ss. 

But my concern is less about Rico Suave hitting on your wife at a bar but more that she's moving her life in a different direction as she disengages from the marriage. 

Like posters earlier have stated - become the guy she'd want to have an affair with.

(but do keep your eyes peeled for Rico - he's out there...)


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Not saying she is cheating, but instead of sitting back it needs to be addressed BEFORE it "hits the point of no return."


----------



## weightlifter

OP what brand of VAR?


----------



## Logan 3

weightlifter said:


> OP what brand of VAR?


Sony ICD-PX312 digital voice recorder.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Logan 3 said:


> Great advice so far, thanks for helping out...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Shaggy*
> _Basic question: are you or the marriage a priority to you wife in her new mode? It sounds very much like your wife's priority is herself and her sinful circle which does not include you._
> 
> 
> 
> That’s the question. 2/3rds of the time, she's still the same person. I don’t think her fundamental values have changed, and family is a big part of those values. Also, calling the new friends sinful may be premature. I haven't spent time with them, but there's no reason to assume they're bad people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Regga*
> _How do you feel about you? Are you up for her challenge? She's already changed and I doubt she'll revert to her old self.Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Apart from what's happening with W, I've always felt the same, which is pretty good. Despite the economy, I've advanced at work, and self-doubt has never been an issue for me. Ironically, between the two us, W has tended to be the more neurotic one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Machiavelli*
> _How often does she go out on GNO? Have you tried to get it on with her when she returns from these? If so, what happens?_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> W doesn’t call them GNOs, so I hadn't thought of them like that. She'll do something social a couple times a week, whether going to a movie, or having a glass of wine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Machiavelli*
> _How often do you have sex? How often does she initiate?_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We make love of a few times a month. The frequency went up this year, due to W's higher energy level and my increased attraction / motivation. I've tended to initiate lately, but she seems more active and stimulated too.
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Machiavelli*
> _How often are you yourself approached by other women?_
> 
> Realistically, I can't remember the last time a woman approached me in way that wasn't just friendly. I don't socialize at bars or clubs, so there's rarely a chance for it to happen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *thatbpguy*
> _now is the time to start tracking her. Place programs on her phone and computer so you can monitor things if she is getting out of control. You may even need to place a couple of VAR's._
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is there any validity to the belief that it’s too soon to start tracking W - putting devices on her phone and her car? I can't help thinking that means treating W like a criminal. Technically, she still hasn't done anything wrong, besides feeling good about herself...
> 
> I appreciate the feedback. Trying to be as candid as possible here. Please keep me updated with your questions and thoughts.
> 
> Logan
Click to expand...

All these red flags are still standing, together with her indifference to you on that night you stayed up, and indicated 'to have some fun', I would set my money on the usual outcome. She has an affair or ONS's.

It is too much the standard story, yourself included.


----------



## weightlifter

Pulling for you Logan.

Hoping this is one of those that turns out to be false.

Keep us advised.

Glad you took my advice on the var. Actually RDMU put me onto them.


----------



## Iver

Just because she has some social nights out with friends doesn't automatically mean she's taking on the Harlem Globetrotters...

She could be doing exactly what she says she's doing. 
Still. Keep up with the VAR.

I don't recall if you said you have the password to her phone. That seems to be the one universal trait of the cheating spouse - phone's inaccessible and it never leaves their side.

I'd address that next.


----------



## Chaparral

Iver said:


> Just because she has some social nights out with friends doesn't automatically mean she's taking on the Harlem Globetrotters...
> 
> She could be doing exactly what she says she's doing.
> Still. Keep up with the VAR.
> 
> I don't recall if you said you have the password to her phone. That seems to be the one universal trait of the cheating spouse - phone's inaccessible and it never leaves their side.
> 
> I'd address that next.


He has asked to see her phone at least once and I think twice, she has basically refused.


----------



## Logan 3

Hey guys...

One week later, still nothing of interest happening on the VAR (except W playing Top 40 music in the car). Those recordings are difficult to listen to, for purely G-rated reasons... On weeknights, it's also hard finding time to hit the gym while still looking after the kids. I'll only put in one night this week, but hope to adjust my schedule so I can go more regularly in the future.

I'm going to kill two birds with one stone on Saturday by having a romantic date with W. The plan is to keep her from seeing other friends that night, which has become a pattern lately. I checked that the kids are OK doing their own thing, and made reservations at a restaurant W has mentioned before. This way, there will be a solid reason for W to break any plans she's made with girlfriends. I told her about it Monday, and she agreed without much resistance.

Things got worse the next day. When I mentioned a date idea for Friday (watching a local theater company), W wasn't pleased. She asked if this was "a little much". On top of our Italian dinner, our walk downtown, and my sudden interest in buying sports gear and playing racquetball, she wondered what was "going on" with me. When I tried using self-improvement language to explain that I was "making a choice to bring more excitement into our lives", W just smiled halfheartedly. For reasons I don't fully understand, this really bothered me. It ticked me off even worse as I kept thinking about it during the day. 

Which brings us to Wednesday. I was making dinner with the kids while W took a shower after yoga class. I wanted to show my daughter an article from the paper, which I'd left in our bedroom. W was still in the shower when I went upstairs. As I walked into the room, I noticed her phone vibrate. She'd left it on the nightstand. I chose to do something out of character, and went over to look. I saw the tail end of a text message come in from "Sylvia" ("LOL"), just as a second text appeared. I read the second one in full:

_"It's worth it when u get so many compliments"._

I grabbed the newspaper and went downstairs before W could find me looking at her phone. I still haven't discussed this with W. I know Sylvia is her girlfriend, and the message was ambiguous enough, but I've felt strangely preoccupied since reading it. I will have to work extra hard at being in a lively, confident mood for our date night Saturday. Will let you know what happens, and welcome feedback in the meantime.

Logan


----------



## Shooboomafoo

Im starting to see similarities in attitudes between your wife and my ex. When my ex was beginning her involvement with one of her old high school boyfriends she had been secretly maintaining a line of communication with thru myspace and facebook, she took on one of the most arrogant attitudes I had ever seen. I suddenly heard words like whining, and needy in reference to me, attempting to find out where she was going in the middle of the day, and who this "just a friend" was. 
I checked the cellphone bill and saw countless pages to one number. She later switched the plan and seperated our phone account so I could no longer see. I was blamed for being untrusting and how dare I ask to see her cellphone, or why she was running to the bathroom to answer every call.

Your posts in reference to your own wife's actions and attitude is so similar, yet I hope it is not the same issue. 

Start with the cell phone bill. Get a print out and check the list of numbers. Use one of the $5 phone number lookup sites on the web..

The last of the test messages you saw was a far cry better than the "well I will if I ever get a chance to see you again" that I saw.

bloody hell man... I feel for you.. 

On the side, you might start planning out an outline of what you plan on doing if it is a worst case scenario, tying up loose ends, shoring up accounts....


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

*"It's worth it when u get so many compliments".*

Maybe she was talking about doing yoga, going to the gym, in general - Something your wife's currently doing to improve herself.

I think the GNOs are they key here. I'm not suggesting she's having wild sex when she goes on these. But she get awfully testy when you question her about what she does and whom she see during these.

She pushes back when you start encroaching on her GNO plans.

This is scheduled, Saturday night time away from you and your kids. GNOs can be dangerous to a marriage by them selves. These are reoccurring and she's acting "strange" because of them(to you anyway.

I would want to know where she goes and whom she sees during these GNOs. This could also be where here friend says she gets "compliments".

Again, she very well may not be having an EA, or a PA during these, but it's fertile breading grounds for both. She seems to have started to distance herself from you somewhat and I think GNO is why.


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## See_Listen_Love

You do all the wrong things brother.

You do the best you can to nice her back into liking you, against your own gut feelings in.


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## Cubby

This is a difficult puzzle to solve, but two things seem obvious: She really likes her GNOs and she doesn't seem too excited to go out with Logan.

Knowing what goes on during GNO would be enlightening.


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## NatureDave

I've been reading and keeping up with this thread and it's really hitting home to me. This is the exact same road my ex-wife went down. And, let me tell you a little about what goes on at GNO's...

From what I've read, I do think there is a good chance that your wife has not had an affair...yet! 

Let me tell you about "going out with the girls/girlfriend"...

First - you already know that the friend badmouths her husband to your wife and she probably complains about you, too. Even worse, my exwife was complaining about one of her girlfriends always complaining about her husband when they were out. I asked if she did the same about me, and her response was, "no, I go out to not have to think about you." Ouch! So now you know the mindset and the attitude when they are out.

Secondly - Your wife has an improved physical appearance and self image. So she is going to enjoy any attention and compliments (see the message on her phone). My ex was overweight, but started dressing better when she would go out. 

Thirdly - The nice restaurant with a lounge on the side is a prime pickup spot for the forty-year old crowd. In my town it's the Bonefish Grill, owned by the Outback chain and a little more upscale seafood version. Seems innocent enough, but the lounge there is the biggest meat market in town.

Fourth - Who frequents these lounges? Lots of single (and married) men who are looking hard to get into someone's pants. Your wife might not be interested, she's probably savvy enough to ward off unwanted advances, she might tell herself that she can handle just some talk and a little harmless flirting. But, sooner or later one of them is going to break through, make a connection, become text buddies, become someone who "really understands her". These guys aren't clumsy, drunk college kids looking for a hookup...they are successful, sometimes even refined, sometimes wealthy, and very adept socially. She is seeing them at their charming best while she sees you in gym shorts grumbling over the bills and cooking dinner for the kids. 

So you see, your wife and her friends don't need be out "dancing and grinding" to be in just as much a marriage-threatening environment.

So now you know the mindset and then environment when your wife goes out with her girlfriends. So what are you going to do about it?

My ex-wife had the complaint for years that she didn't have any girlfriends any more and didn't do anything for herself. I was naïve in thinking these GNO's were what she was looking for and that I was being the supportive husband by endorsing them. In truth, nothing I could have done would have shown less love...

So what are you going to do about it, Logan???

You cannot come at her hard with ultimatums...you know this. You will hear "it's just a glass of wine with friends", "we're not bar hopping, we don't even like crowded bars", and of course "so you're saying I can't have friends and a life of my own?" 

Your date nights are a great start. Even though you are getting shot down this week, keep it up. She is going out now as an escape from you and the kids. You need to turn that around to be where she goes out WITH you as an escape from the kids.

Don't be so available to babysit on her nights out. Try to be subtle about it so it's not open warfare, but start having things planned either for yourself or with her on the nights she goes out.

Go to marriage counseling and try to work through a counselor. A good one could help make sure you two grow together as she improves herself rather than her growing away from you. Counselors complain that they are often ineffective because no one calls them until the marriage is in dire crisis or beyond. You have a chance to get started while opportunity is still there.

And continue to monitor as you have been doing .

Now I will reinforce what you already know. Giving the benefit of the doubt that no infidelity has occurred yet, she is on a road that will lead there. The nights out will become more frequent and later. The distance between you two will grow, then someone will get through her defenses and an affair will be on...not a question of if but when. 

But you knew this already when you opened this thread...


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## Cubby

Nature Dave- that's a really good, clear-thinking post.

The problem here is that Logan's wife hasn't cheated (I don't think she has-I could be wrong though) but most of us can see from a mile away where this road is leading. Or I should say, is in danger of leading. So Logan's going to face resistance if he insists on no more GNOs. After all, it's just a quiet night talking to her girlfriend drinking wine. And she's not cheating, so what's the problem? 

But as NatureDave describes, these innocent nights out can be toxic to a marriage. But Logan's wife doesn't see where this can go and how this kind of stuff has a way of chipping away at boundaries and eventually a marriage. She's naively enjoying the attention and the 'compliments' and sees no harm in what she's doing.

And the attempts by Logan to spend more time with his wife aren't exactly met with enthusiasm. That's a problem.


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## tom67

Cubby said:


> Nature Dave- that's a really good, clear-thinking post.
> 
> The problem here is that Logan's wife hasn't cheated (I don't think she has-I could be wrong though) but most of us can see from a mile away where this road is leading. Or I should say, is in danger of leading. So Logan's going to face resistance if he insists on no more GNOs. After all, it's just a quiet night talking to her girlfriend drinking wine. And she's not cheating, so what's the problem?
> 
> But as NatureDave describes, these innocent nights out can be toxic to a marriage. But Logan's wife doesn't see where this can go and how this kind of stuff has a way of chipping away at boundaries and eventually a marriage. She's naively enjoying the attention and the 'compliments' and sees no harm in what she's doing.
> 
> And the attempts by Logan to spend more time with his wife aren't exactly met with enthusiasm. That's a problem.


:iagree:And protecting the phone is a red flag also.


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## Robsia

Did she though? He asked to look at her phone and when she asked why, he only asked how much of a signal she had, and she told him.

If my H asked to borrow my phone I'd probably ask why also. Not because there was a problem, just out of curiosity. I'd've probably said the same thing.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

This is why I said way back in this thread, get a mole in at the GNO place. Just to casually observe. Who she sits with, talks to... leaves with.

Just getting a report on his wife's interactions on a given GNO. I'm telling you, THIS is where it happens, glances, meetings, talking and anything else.

She's staked a claim for her GNO and OP needs to find out what's so important that she doesn't want to talk about it, or not go because he wants a date, or family night with her.

The garding her phone is big in my book. My guess is her and her GF complain about their husbands to each other. They also may be saying things like "How about that cute guy that was checking you out last night"...

Logan, this ship seems to be setting sail and your feet are still firmly planted on the dock. Even if she's not cheating, it may not be long...


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## NatureDave

I also like the strategy of staying up until she gets back home. It's clearly cramping her plans....

Continue to do it, but don't necessarily give her the inquisition when she gets home. Just observe...her level of sobriety, smell, does she jump straight in the shower, want to talk with you at all?

Don't tell her in advance you going to wait up for her, just do it. If she asks like did previously, say "I'll probably go to be in a little while...", but stay up anyway.

And if she asks why you are staying up and tries to convince you its not necessary, simply say "I love you and missed you and didn't want to go to sleep without seeing you first."

Your thread, wife's behavior and girl's night out really triggered me, can you tell??? LOL


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## Iver

Logan,

I don't know what is going on with your marriage based on what you wrote so far - it may be 90% A-OK or you may be getting the "I Love You But..." speech in a month. I simply have no idea.

But the best indicator that something is amiss is what your gut is telling you. If it's telling you something is not right, well you need to step up.

A couple of points for you: you do not have the luxury of time. Do not dither for 3 months content with the status quo. 

I don't know what the text message meant - maybe the women at the Yoga Studio were complimenting her? Maybe it was some lounge lizards at the local watering hole? Maybe some guy at her work? 

But you do have to read those texts - the VAR is a good idea but nowadays 90% of communications are going to be texted. You're a smart guy so you shouldn't have any problems with the tech side - check out the threads on how to do this. (by badbane especially)

Lastly, do not confuse going to the gym with getting in shape. If you schedule three 15 workout sessions at home in addition to the 1x at the gym you can make a tremendous difference in your body as long as you are eating correctly (Paleo)

1. a 15 minutes run - start slow, cycle up to a short hard run, cycle down and repeat.
2. 5 pushups followed by 5 alternating knee to elbow jumps followed by 5 crunches - and repeat for 15 minuts.
3. Burpees - (look it up) do 10 holding a light weight followed by crunches - repeat for 15 minutes. (try not to throw up)

One more point...do you and your wife ever really talk? The fact that you gave a great answer to her question about what was going on with you and got a "meh" in response...maybe ask her how she feels about all this. 

I hope it's not because she's checking out and doesn't want to expend the energy engaging in activities with you...

Good Luck.


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## Iver

Just a thought - maybe your W was displeased about your attempt to schedule something Friday night because she was going to do a GNO since you booked Saturday?

Definitely get Friday booked.


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## phillybeffandswiss

L3, since it bothers you so much, put aside some money and hire a PI. Have him follow her to a couple of the GNOs. You seem extremely torn up at snooping, but your gut is saying something is going on.


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## Chaparral

The remark about compliments seems very dangerous to me. What women give a hoot about the a compliment given by another lady? They would probably take it the wrong way anyway. They are talking about compliments they are getting from men.

Are you not catching any convos form any of her girlfriends?

I suggest when she does go out on a gno and you are babysitting, take the kids out and do something great you would normally do with the kids and your wife.

DO NOT LET THIS GO

Everything points to trouble, hopefully, trouble that can be thwarted. I would absolutely have a PI follow the next few GNOs.


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## StillSearching

I would walk up during one of these GNOs with the kids. But then again I'd not let my wife go on a GNO again. She tends to have sex with her co workers while she said she was doing a GNO.


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## Logan 3

NatureDave said:


> I also like the strategy of staying up until she gets back home. It's clearly cramping her plans.... Just observe...her level of sobriety, smell, does she jump straight in the shower, want to talk with you at all?





chapparal said:


> Everything points to trouble, hopefully, trouble that can be thwarted. I would absolutely have a PI follow the next few GNOs.





MrBrains said:


> I would walk up during one of these GNOs with the kids.





phillybeffandswiss said:


> L3, since it bothers you so much, put aside some money and hire a PI. Have him follow her to a couple of the GNOs. You seem extremely torn up at snooping, but your gut is saying something is going on.


Based on the consensus, I'm thinking about asking a friend to tail W on one of these outings. I know a guy who went through a rough divorce a couple years back. We don't speak often, but he lives in my city. I may re-initiate contact and float the idea with him, extremely cautiously. It goes against most of my principles, but I'd rather act like a "captain" in this case, not a "chump"...


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan 3 said:


> Based on the consensus, I'm thinking about asking a friend to tail W on one of these outings. I know a guy who went through a rough divorce a couple years back. We don't speak often, but he lives in my city. I may re-initiate contact and float the idea with him, extremely cautiously. It goes against most of my principles, but I'd rather act like a "captain" in this case, not a "chump"...


There's no reason to have him "tail" her.

Show him picture of her car, her licence plate, her face and a head-to toe.

Have hime wait in the parking lot. Watch if she meets/talks with anyone before she goes inside. She goes in. Your freind goes in a few minutes later. Pay for hime to have a nice meal and have him glance in your wife's direction one in a while, or if a new person shows up where she's sitting.

NO PICTURES. NO EVES DROPPING. He's not a PI, he's just there to see whom your wife meets/talks with.

When he's done eating(slowly), if he doesn't mind waiting in the parking lot until your wife leaves, that would be best.

You want to know if she gives anyone a hug, or kiss goodbye.

This isn't high spy. This is just observing.

Oh, and have hime call you when she leaves. You know how long it takes to get drom there to your house. See if it takes longer than normal.


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## tom67

Logan 3 said:


> Based on the consensus, I'm thinking about asking a friend to tail W on one of these outings. I know a guy who went through a rough divorce a couple years back. We don't speak often, but he lives in my city. I may re-initiate contact and float the idea with him, extremely cautiously. It goes against most of my principles, but I'd rather act like a "captain" in this case, not a "chump"...


Good idea proactive.


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## See_Listen_Love

Logan, 

Whether she is seeing someone else or not, that is not the problem.

I read your first post again, and she has turned her life around, and there is a dark side to her new life.

That dark side is YOU.

She developed, you stay behind in misery.

So if this continues she will leave you behind. Physical, that is. She left already mentally. And I can't blame her for coming out of misery.

You mention your 'principles'. Your principles are that of the couch potato. 

Time to Man Up, or Let Her Go.

The possible affair part is actually not that important. Your choice is.
Depending on your decisions she will find someone else or not.


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## Iver

and if you find she's at the lounge with her friend having a Chablis and chit-chatting for a couple of hours...then goes home on schedule....then what?

I hope I'm not wrong but I think this is more about someone moving in a different direction with their life rather than some one getting some strange.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

Iver said:


> *and if you find she's at the lounge with her friend having a Chablis and chit-chatting for a couple of hours...then goes home on schedule....then what?*
> 
> I hope I'm not wrong but I think this is more about someone moving in a different direction with their life rather than some one getting some strange.


That's my point. He needs to find out first.

What if his "observer" reports back to him that his wife chatted with a male patron for 20 minutes? 

Was it for 10 minutes last week? Will it be for 30 minutes next week? What about 2 months from now?...

She's lost weight, is going to the gym and has weekly scheduled GNO's. OP has stated that she treats him differently now and when ever GNO is brought up, or scheduled over, she gets upset.

He doesn't know if she's even talking, or flirting with other men during GNO. But given the way she's been acting of late, I would be worried about what she's doing during GNO and want to find out, SOON...


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## Iver

I actually agree - he should have his friend scope out what is going on just as a "due dilegence" on his part.

This shouldn't be a substitute for getting himself whipped into shape - remember when ever someone says they're only 20 lbs overweight the reality is it's probably 40 lbs...

If she's at the gym and in serious Yoga classes she's going to be hanging with some people who are very fit. 

Our boy has got to get moving here.


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## Iver

Also - if she's talking to a guy(s) on her GNO - well so what? What do you do with that? 

Husband: Honey - did ahem...any ahh.. men talk to you last night??
W: Seriously? 
Husband: well?
w: Good God. I can't have a conversation with a man now? what next? A burka? 
Husband: But...but...but..


We might want to avoid this scenario.

Still - I really think Logan needs to get access to the text messages. My guess is they will paint a very clear picture of what is actually going on.


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## Chaparral

If he doesn't want his wife going out chatting up guys that is his and every other mans right. Anything less is stupid.


----------



## The Middleman

Iver said:


> Also - if she's talking to a guy(s) on her GNO - well so what? What do you do with that?
> 
> Husband: Honey - did ahem...any ahh.. men talk to you last night??
> W: Seriously?
> Husband: well?
> w: Good God. I can't have a conversation with a man now? what next? A burka?
> Husband: But...but...but..
> 
> 
> We might want to avoid this scenario.
> 
> Still - I really think Logan needs to get access to the text messages. My guess is they will paint a very clear picture of what is actually going on.


Or the conversation can go like this:

Husband: Honey - did men talk to you last night? Did you have any conversations?
W: Seriously? 
Husband: Yes, seriously.
w: Good God. I can't have a conversation with a man now? what next? A burka? 
Husband: How about we dispose of the sarcasm and have a serious conversation. What I'd like to know is did you have any conversations with men last night.


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## BobSimmons

See_Listen_Love said:


> Logan,
> 
> Whether she is seeing someone else or not, that is not the problem.
> 
> I read your first post again, and she has turned her life around, and there is a dark side to her new life.
> 
> That dark side is YOU.
> 
> She developed, you stay behind in misery.
> 
> So if this continues she will leave you behind. Physical, that is. She left already mentally. And I can't blame her for coming out of misery.
> 
> You mention your 'principles'. Your principles are that of the couch potato.
> 
> Time to Man Up, or Let Her Go.
> 
> The possible affair part is actually not that important. Your choice is.
> Depending on your decisions she will find someone else or not.


So very very true...what is he doing to turn his life around except listening to folks here who might be steering him wrong


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## Iver

If by "Dark Side" you mean a husband who works, takes care of the kids and provides for his family, well there you go.

I believe numerous posters have also recommended he step up, get in shape and become the man she'd want to have an affair with.


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## bravenewworld

In total agreement with See_Listen and Bob. Logan you are pouring all this energy into being an amateur private investigator when it should have been poured a hell of a lot earlier into not letting your relationship stagnate. 

I'm not saying you can't turn it around (rooting for you that you can!) but the way to do is by MC/IC and making positive changes yourself. I remember when I started being more actively social my STBXH was threatened, nasty, and dismissive. And no, I was not cheating despite many GNO's after years of doing all his boring activities (bars, drinking, hanging out with his brotastic friends, etc.) 

Don't just be the guy she wants to have an affair with, be the guy that takes care of himself, cares about her needs, and can still take her breath away. You said she has a new hot body other guys enjoy looking at - why not be the guy who can actually ENJOY it? Know what I'm saying? :smthumbup:

Every marriage sometimes needs a hero. Now is your time.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

bravenewworld said:


> In total agreement with See_Listen and Bob. Logan you are pouring all this energy into being an amateur private investigator when it should have been poured a hell of a lot earlier into not letting your relationship stagnate.
> 
> I'm not saying you can't turn it around (rooting for you that you can!) but the way to do is by MC/IC and making positive changes yourself. I remember when I started being more actively social my STBXH was threatened, nasty, and dismissive. And no, I was not cheating despite many GNO's after years of doing all his boring activities (bars, drinking, hanging out with his brotastic friends, etc.)
> 
> Don't just be the guy she wants to have an affair with, be the guy that takes care of himself, cares about her needs, and can still take her breath away. You said she has a new hot body other guys enjoy looking at - why not be the guy who can actually ENJOY it? Know what I'm saying? :smthumbup:
> 
> *Every marriage sometimes needs a hero.* Now is your time.


Unfortunately for the OP, his wife's idea of a "hero" is a man that earns a 6 digit income.


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## bravenewworld

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Unfortunately for the OP, his wife's idea of a "hero" is a man that earns a 6 digit income.


Was that in the thread? Quite long so it's possible I missed.


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## Iver

bravenewworld said:


> Was that in the thread? Quite long so it's possible I missed.


I don't recall money ever being an issue with his wife...different thread perhaps? (there's one by russ101 who's wife told him she'd be attracted to him if he just made more money.)


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

bravenewworld said:


> Was that in the thread? Quite long so it's possible I missed.


Yes, you are correct. I've been posting on both threads and crossed while thinking/typing. Thank you for the correction.

I'm sorry Logan. The post was meant for someone else's thread. Btw, if I get too worked up while posting on your thread, by all means, pm me to chill out. Your(and a few others) thread hits a nerve with me because GNO was how my EX started breaking away from me years ago. As with your wife, it started out innocently enough. But for me, it took a bad turn eventually.

I started seeing the signs, but was too slow to react and we both paid dearly for it.

I think I need to take a break from this.

I feel like such a dope.


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## bravenewworld

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> GNO was how my EX started breaking away from me years ago. As with your wife, it started out innocently enough. But for me, it took a bad turn eventually.
> 
> I started seeing the signs, but was too slow to react and we both paid dearly for it.


This is why I like reading TAM, feel like I'm learning a lot. I'm a really social person who loves GNO's. I never thought they could lead to an affair. I guess I'm lucky my friends don't encourage that kind of behavior. 

Another thing I'm noticing - seems like income to men is similar to looks/weight with women. My husband basically said I was no longer attractive because I was older/heavier. Even though I was working on the weight issue in Weight Watchers and can't exactly jump in my time machine and turn back the clock. 

If it helps - my husband made six figures and I'd take an honest, fun, confident, trustworthy guy who made less ANY day of the week. Maybe one day I'll find that guy who likewise doesn't care I have a few extra wrinkles and fifteen pounds to lose. 

Seems like a lot of WS are fairly shallow. Makes me wonder how they attracted people of substance.


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## phillybeffandswiss

It is crazy because there are three active threads that are only different by degrees. I know I've only been here a short while, but these three are so similar it is scary. I have to watch what I say because I have almost cross posted myself.



> This is why I like reading TAM, feel like I'm learning a lot. I'm a really social person who loves GNO's. I never thought they could lead to an affair. I guess I'm lucky my friends don't encourage that kind of behavior.


Completely and utterly depends on your friends IMO. If all you do is go to movies, go out to eat and have the occasional drink it seems cool. It's when people go out and party like their teen and college years, during GNOS, it appears too lead to trouble.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

bravenewworld said:


> This is why I like reading TAM, feel like I'm learning a lot. I'm a really social person who loves GNO's. I never thought they could lead to an affair. I guess I'm lucky my friends don't encourage that kind of behavior.
> 
> Another thing I'm noticing - seems like income to men is similar to looks/weight with women. My husband basically said I was no longer attractive because I was older/heavier. Even though I was working on the weight issue in Weight Watchers and can't exactly jump in my time machine and turn back the clock.
> 
> If it helps - my husband made six figures and I'd take an honest, fun, confident, trustworthy guy who made less ANY day of the week. Maybe one day I'll find that guy who likewise doesn't care I have a few extra wrinkles and fifteen pounds to lose.
> 
> Seems like a lot of WS are fairly shallow. Makes me wonder how they attracted people of substance.


I think it's more of a sign of the times that we are in. People get distracted from their marriages/relationships easier these days.

You start getting attention somewhere else, either purposely, or by chance and the cheating wheel starts to turn.

Btw, I'll be 50 in July. I'm more attracted to women my own age then ones that are younger. Physically and intellectually.

Maybe I'm different, but I just find that 40-50 old women are more alluring to me then their half-aged counterparts.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder I guess.


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## Logan 3

Not too sure what the last few comments are about. For the record, W never expressed an interest in a "6 figure income"...



chapparal said:


> Are you not catching any convos form any of her girlfriends?


Nothing yet. In the meantime, I'm sore from a satisfying workout yesterday. I've got to remember to spend less energy on cardio, as opposed to weight training...

Our date Saturday was enjoyable enough. The restaurant was pricy, but W seemed to like the 'fusion' food. She was a little on edge after a conversation we had a couple days before. I'd asked her about not wanting to go out on Friday. Without saying so directly, I was worried she still wanted to see her girlfriends. W said she didn't really feel like hanging out with anyone Friday. She was off work, and looked forward to relaxing around the house while the rest of us were at school / work. As long as she wasn't seeing friends, I thought this was reasonable and dropped the issue.

Nothing bad happened on our date Saturday. There was enough tension in the air that we didn't get carried away by romance or have great sex. W ended up staying home Friday night, too, reading a book and doing work on her computer. My son made me aware of something this morning, however...

His school let out early on Friday, so he came home around lunchtime to find W getting ready to go shopping. She was wearing a sweatshirt, no makeup, with her hair tied back in a scrunchie. Surprisingly, she was also wearing a 'short' style of jean shorts. Maybe they're in fashion now, but W hasn't worn anything like that around us before. She seemed in a hurry to leave, and didn't ask my son why he was home, what his plans were, whether he needed a drive anywhere, etc. He said she might have been upset that one of us came home when she was supposed to have the house to herself. He thought it was more likely she just felt embarrassed about wearing those shorts, though. The house was empty by the time W came home again. She spent the rest of the night upstairs, wearing sweat clothes and keeping to herself in our room.

I'm thinking more seriously about contacting my divorced friend. I may draft an email to him after finishing this post. I'm not going to complain about the conflicting advice on TAM - people pressuring me to spy on W, other people claiming I've joined the "dark side" for doing so. I bear ultimate responsibility here, and I will decide what's an acceptable way to try and rescue my M. The feedback is always appreciated.

Logan


----------



## Iver

I guess it goes without saying that you know where she and her short shorts went shopping and she actually...bought something?


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## warlock07

Logan 3 said:


> Not too sure what the last few comments are about. For the record, W never expressed an interest in a "6 figure income"...
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing yet. In the meantime, I'm sore from a satisfying workout yesterday. I've got to remember to spend less energy on cardio, as opposed to weight training...
> 
> Our date Saturday was enjoyable enough. The restaurant was pricy, but W seemed to like the 'fusion' food. She was a little on edge after a conversation we had a couple days before. I'd asked her about not wanting to go out on Friday. Without saying so directly, I was worried she still wanted to see her girlfriends. W said she didn't really feel like hanging out with anyone Friday. She was off work, and looked forward to relaxing around the house while the rest of us were at school / work. As long as she wasn't seeing friends, I thought this was reasonable and dropped the issue.
> 
> Nothing bad happened on our date Saturday. There was enough tension in the air that we didn't get carried away by romance or have great sex. W ended up staying home Friday night, too, reading a book and doing work on her computer. My son made me aware of something this morning, however...
> 
> His school let out early on Friday, so he came home around lunchtime to find W getting ready to go shopping. She was wearing a sweatshirt, no makeup, with her hair tied back in a scrunchie. Surprisingly, she was also wearing a 'short' style of jean shorts. Maybe they're in fashion now, but W hasn't worn anything like that around us before. She seemed in a hurry to leave, and didn't ask my son why he was home, what his plans were, whether he needed a drive anywhere, etc. He said she might have been upset that one of us came home when she was supposed to have the house to herself. He thought it was more likely she just felt embarrassed about wearing those shorts, though. The house was empty by the time W came home again. She spent the rest of the night upstairs, wearing sweat clothes and keeping to herself in our room.
> 
> I'm thinking more seriously about contacting my divorced friend. I may draft an email to him after finishing this post. I'm not going to complain about the conflicting advice on TAM - people pressuring me to spy on W, other people claiming I've joined the "dark side" for doing so. I bear ultimate responsibility here, and I will decide what's an acceptable way to try and rescue my M. The feedback is always appreciated.
> 
> Logan


How much do you trust this divorced friend ? You don't want him talking about it to other people


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## IsthisInsanity?

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

It just gets more murky. I would not miss a beat getting a gps on her car. IF she is doing something she was already concerned about you getting suspicious. She could be doing plenty with out alerting you IF she is trying to hide an affair.

The thing is, even if you can stop gnos and she is in an affair, she will just go to plan B. There are a million ways to have an affair and use work, for an example, to hide it. Leave early but come home at the right time. Go to work early. Have a "meeting" at work etc.

How long was she shopping and what did she buy? Many cheaters go shopping and never bring anything home.

The number one red flag is that you are here. When one gets here with suspicions the odds of there actually being an affair is nearly 100%. Unbelievable, ain't it?


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## Cubby

chapparal said:


> The number one red flag is that you are here. When one gets here with suspicions the odds of there actually being an affair is nearly 100%. Unbelievable, ain't it?


And that, right there, is a perfect illustration of the ol' trust your gut theory. And when the question of whether one's spouse is having an affair comes up, it's seems almost unaminous here that rule number one is to trust your gut.


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## Iver

Logan,

You really are going to have to get access to your W's text messages. (and any texting apps that hide messages) 

The VAR and future P.I. efforts can't hurt but this is real deal if you want to find out if anything is going on here. 

Has your wife always had a password protected phone (one that you don't know) or is this new? 

Here's a crazy idea - just flat ask her what her password is...maybe try messing with your phone and while you are doing that ask her for it. 

If she asks why tell her you're resetting yours - then tell her what it is.
What's she going to do? Say no? (if she does you have a real problem on your hands...)


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## Cubby

I don't remember....did Logan say his wife's phone is password-protected?


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## Iver

Perhaps not...I'd assumed this (OK, I know what they say about that) because he hadn't checked her texting even though he'd VAR'd her car - and got to listen to lots of top 40.


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## Logan 3

W's phone locks automatically. I could figure out how to bypass it if I wanted, but haven't gone down that road. I looked at a bill a few weeks ago. There were no suspiciously long / frequent / LD calls...


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## Chaparral

Did you check to see who she is calling on GNO and near GNO nights?

Also, be aware, numbers in a phone sometime have a false name. Do any of the numbers called have an untraceable number?


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## Iver

To me seeing what is being texted is more about understanding your W's state of mind and what kind of friends she has than expecting to find a "smoking gun" i.e. proof of some misbehavior.

You can also get a sense if her friends are OK or if they are toxic as well...remember the old saying "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

There is a feeling that you need to head something off at the pass. I just don't know what that something is...:scratchhead:


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## Machiavelli




----------



## somethingelse

Logan 3 said:


> Not too sure what the last few comments are about. For the record, W never expressed an interest in a "6 figure income"...
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing yet. In the meantime, I'm sore from a satisfying workout yesterday. I've got to remember to spend less energy on cardio, as opposed to weight training...
> 
> Our date Saturday was enjoyable enough. The restaurant was pricy, but W seemed to like the 'fusion' food. She was a little on edge after a conversation we had a couple days before. I'd asked her about not wanting to go out on Friday. Without saying so directly, I was worried she still wanted to see her girlfriends. W said she didn't really feel like hanging out with anyone Friday. She was off work, and looked forward to relaxing around the house while the rest of us were at school / work. As long as she wasn't seeing friends, I thought this was reasonable and dropped the issue.
> 
> Nothing bad happened on our date Saturday. There was enough tension in the air that we didn't get carried away by romance or have great sex. W ended up staying home Friday night, too, reading a book and doing work on her computer. My son made me aware of something this morning, however...
> 
> His school let out early on Friday, so he came home around lunchtime to find W getting ready to go shopping. She was wearing a sweatshirt, no makeup, with her hair tied back in a scrunchie. Surprisingly, she was also wearing a 'short' style of jean shorts. Maybe they're in fashion now, but *W hasn't worn anything like that around us before. She seemed in a hurry to leave*, and didn't ask my son why he was home, what his plans were, whether he needed a drive anywhere, etc. He said *she might have been upset that one of us came home when she was supposed to have the house to herself*. He thought it was more likely she just felt embarrassed about wearing those shorts, though. The house was empty by the time W came home again. *She spent the rest of the night upstairs, wearing sweat clothes and keeping to herself in our room*.
> 
> I'm thinking more seriously about contacting my divorced friend. I may draft an email to him after finishing this post. I'm not going to complain about the conflicting advice on TAM - people pressuring me to spy on W, other people claiming I've joined the "dark side" for doing so. I bear ultimate responsibility here, and I will decide what's an acceptable way to try and rescue my M. The feedback is always appreciated.
> 
> Logan


She seems to be isolating herself. If this is not what she is normally like, then it's not normal for her. Red Flag. 

Go with your gut. Do what you have to do to get this in order. If I was you I would want verification from my spouse as to what is *really* going on.


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## now_awake

I've been kind of holding my breath on this one. I hope you can come back with an update. I'm wishing for the best in your situation!


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

now_awake said:


> I've been kind of holding my breath on this one. I hope you can come back with an update. I'm wishing for the best in your situation!


I'm guessing when/if he does post back, the news won't be positive.

I'm sure his wife had GNO last Friday, or Saturday. If he had her watched at the GNO place and he's not reported that nothing negative was seen - I'm thinking that he found out something that he didn't like. Otherwise he'd have posted another "all's quiet on the front" bulletin. 

I think he was also considering a VAR, or two. If so - I'm thinking that he found out something that he didn't like. Otherwise he'd have posted another "all's quiet on the front" bulletin.

It seems to me that OP doesn't want to believe that there's a possibility that his wife could ever cheat on him. We all hope for this, but we know that it's always a possibility.


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## now_awake

So true. It's sad that by saying 'hoping for the best', I meant that he catches her before it goes too far and they can salvage their marriage.


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## Iver

I'm also curious as to what's going on here. Hopefully they've been on vacation or worse case suffering from the flu.

I'd hate to hear that he caught her with her hand in the cookie jar...


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## Logan 3

Don't underestimate the discouraging effect of people blaming posters for the stressful situations they're going through. Some of the recent responses here have sounded sarcastic or insulting, which doesn't make anyone want to post more often. That being said, there are still a few updates to report.

The VAR hasn't caught anything substantial yet. The only significant thing I've learned (from hearing W tell people she'll be late for the gym, etc) is that her speaking voice is different when she talks to certain friends. Her tone is higher and more laid back.

On another front, I contacted the divorced guy I know. He was keen to "be in the area" the next time W went out with friends. Before their next outing, I subtly gathered as much information as I could from W. It wasn't easy, since she's become increasingly suspicious about my interest in her personal life. I found out what place they were going, what time, and for approximately how long. Based on these details, my friend arranged to "pass by" and report anything out of the ordinary.

W said they were going to a martini bar she's mentioned before. My friend got there early and parked across the street, with a clear view of the entrance. He stayed in touch by phone. True to her word, W showed up around 9. She and another woman were dressed in an upscale, somewhat conservative way. My friend was prepared to stay a while, since W told me she wouldn't be home before 11. An hour later, they were already leaving.

My friend saw them go around the corner to another parking lot. As he was starting his car, they appeared out front again. Both women were now missing their blazer jackets, wearing only the blouses they'd had on underneath. He also noticed they were wearing taller shoes than when they first walked out of the bar.

Within minutes, a taxi came to pick them up. My friend followed behind. They only drove a couple blocks before stopping in front of a nondescript building with a lineup outside. They waited in line for 10 minutes. W's friend went over to speak with a security guy up front. After a short conversation, she waved to W and they entered the building.

My friend felt uncomfortable parking outside what was evidently a nightclub. The bouncers seemed vigilant, and he thought they would eventually notice him. Based on the people in the lineup, he also didn't stand a chance of getting past security and seeing what was happening inside. We decided it wasn't a good idea for me to drive over there, either. I said he should leave and I would talk to W when she came home.

W got in shortly after 1. I pretended to be asleep, but was actually wide awake. She was back to wearing the outfit with the blazer and the normal shoes. She looked alert, not tipsy. I didn't show my hand. I acted like she woke me up and groggily asked her how the night went...

W's response was brief: "Good. We had fun". She got edgier when I asked "at the martini place?" Another short answer: "Yes. Is that alright?" I had already decided not to confront her, but couldn't stop asking more questions: "Cool, just the bar?"

She became irritated, almost to a level I hadn't experienced before. W replied with her back to me, changing out of her clothes and asking why I cared so much about every little move she made lately. I told her I just wondered how her night had been. "Oh well, and we went dancing" she said - as though this were perfectly normal, and I was a jerk for interrogating her about it.

I responded with a surprised look (which was fake). I then asked W when going out dancing became something she enjoyed doing (which was a sincere question). She said something like: "It's called trying new things... not everybody has to stay in their comfort zone all the time". The last comment sounded more like an attack on me, rather than an explanation of her behavior.

For the sake of staying 'dark', I left it there. We went to bed, and I haven't had any tough discussions with W since then. In fact, I've been semi-paralyzed. The agitation I've felt has made it easier to work out at the gym, at least. But I find it difficult to act like a confident 'MMSL' guy and take W on fun dates when I have so many doubts inside. 

I let my friend know I won't need him to look further into my life right now. I don't feel like unlocking W's phone either, or doing anything else that would constitute breaking into her things. I just want these unpleasant vibes to go away, and my marriage to be like it was for 19 happy years. It's going to be hard planning an exciting date for the weekend, but I am determined to do it. I will not give up.

Logan


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## The Middleman

Logan 3 said:


> She became irritated, almost to a level I hadn't experienced before. W replied with her back to me, changing out of her clothes and asking why I cared so much about every little move she made lately. I told her I just wondered how her night had been. "Oh well, and we went dancing" she said - as though this were perfectly normal, and I was a jerk for interrogating her about it.
> 
> I responded with a surprised look (which was fake).


This bothers me .... a lot.

I have both a temper and a confrontational style of engaging people so her arrogance would have lasted all of 10 seconds if it were me, before I would have gone back at her with something like "Why are you upset, what are you hiding?" and I would not have backed down. I think the next time she goes out, you need to be the one following her and waiting for her when she comes out of the night club for a confrontation, not your friend. I think it's time you take charge and you draw the line in the sand and say the going out stops now.


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## BrockLanders

44 yo woman going to meat markets? Not good. It's entirely likely she's not cheating now, but those places are kryptonite to a marriage. She has a whole lot more options than in the past, she sounds like she's dipping or has dipped her toes into the water. She knows you know, thus the resentment. What's the deal with the taxi? Might she think she's being tracked, or is it a practical issue (no parking, etc).


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## Chaparral

What is the latest she has been out?

She is beating you at every move. You seem to be paralyzed by fear.
Next weekend let her know you will be going out alone Fri and date night will be Sat. Let her know you like the idea of going out dancing without her. When she says she dances with her girlfriend, ntell her that's not what you heard. This will take balls to save your family.


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## Chaparral

Btw, are you keeping a journal of all the lies, times she is going out,
misleading statements. The things your kids say about missing their mom.

I don't know how you can keep it together when she is pretending one thing and doing another. My wife went out gno one time and I told her the next time her things would be in garbage bags on the front porch with the locks changed. Being a little tipsy she just smiled happily. Never happened again.

You wife is acting like a cougar. You should take her to the same vlub this weekend.

I'm guessing nightclubs do not allow smoking.


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## Chaparral

*-04-2012, 09:58 AM #257 (permalink) 
morituri 
Member


Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: So Cal
Posts: 4,473 Default Re: Not sure what to do 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It think the following story is the Holy Grail of man-up, INMNSHO 


Quote:
Originally Posted by marduk View Post 
I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.

A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.

Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed? Me. Here’s what I learned:

1. Let her go. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.

2. Set boundaries, and then stick to them. I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.

3. Be ok with losing her. Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.

4. Do my own thing. I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…

5. Be a father to our children. Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.

6. Get some buddies. Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.

7. Fight different. Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.

8. Act from a place of strength. I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.

9. Be decisive. Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.

10. Know what I want from life. This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.

11. Do more macho stuff. Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a man and not one of her girlfriends.

So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.

Thanks for everything! *


----------



## just got it 55

Logan 3 said:


> Don't underestimate the discouraging effect of people blaming posters for the stressful situations they're going through. Some of the recent responses here have sounded sarcastic or insulting, which doesn't make anyone want to post more often. That being said, there are still a few updates to report.
> 
> The VAR hasn't caught anything substantial yet. The only significant thing I've learned (from hearing W tell people she'll be late for the gym, etc) is that her speaking voice is different when she talks to certain friends. Her tone is higher and more laid back.
> 
> On another front, I contacted the divorced guy I know. He was keen to "be in the area" the next time W went out with friends. Before their next outing, I subtly gathered as much information as I could from W. It wasn't easy, since she's become increasingly suspicious about my interest in her personal life. I found out what place they were going, what time, and for approximately how long. Based on these details, my friend arranged to "pass by" and report anything out of the ordinary.
> 
> W said they were going to a martini bar she's mentioned before. My friend got there early and parked across the street, with a clear view of the entrance. He stayed in touch by phone. True to her word, W showed up around 9. She and another woman were dressed in an upscale, somewhat conservative way. My friend was prepared to stay a while, since W told me she wouldn't be home before 11. An hour later, they were already leaving.
> 
> My friend saw them go around the corner to another parking lot. As he was starting his car, they appeared out front again. Both women were now missing their blazer jackets, wearing only the blouses they'd had on underneath. He also noticed they were wearing taller shoes than when they first walked out of the bar.
> 
> Within minutes, a taxi came to pick them up. My friend followed behind. They only drove a couple blocks before stopping in front of a nondescript building with a lineup outside. They waited in line for 10 minutes. W's friend went over to speak with a security guy up front. After a short conversation, she waved to W and they entered the building.
> 
> My friend felt uncomfortable parking outside what was evidently a nightclub. The bouncers seemed vigilant, and he thought they would eventually notice him. Based on the people in the lineup, he also didn't stand a chance of getting past security and seeing what was happening inside. We decided it wasn't a good idea for me to drive over there, either. I said he should leave and I would talk to W when she came home.
> 
> W got in shortly after 1. I pretended to be asleep, but was actually wide awake. She was back to wearing the outfit with the blazer and the normal shoes. She looked alert, not tipsy. I didn't show my hand. I acted like she woke me up and groggily asked her how the night went...
> 
> W's response was brief: "Good. We had fun". She got edgier when I asked "at the martini place?" Another short answer: "Yes. Is that alright?" I had already decided not to confront her, but couldn't stop asking more questions: "Cool, just the bar?"
> 
> She became irritated, almost to a level I hadn't experienced before. W replied with her back to me, changing out of her clothes and asking why I cared so much about every little move she made lately. I told her I just wondered how her night had been. "Oh well, and we went dancing" she said - as though this were perfectly normal, and I was a jerk for interrogating her about it.
> 
> I responded with a surprised look (which was fake). I then asked W when going out dancing became something she enjoyed doing (which was a sincere question). She said something like: "It's called trying new things... not everybody has to stay in their comfort zone all the time". The last comment sounded more like an attack on me, rather than an explanation of her behavior.
> 
> For the sake of staying 'dark', I left it there. We went to bed, and I haven't had any tough discussions with W since then. In fact, I've been semi-paralyzed. The agitation I've felt has made it easier to work out at the gym, at least. But I find it difficult to act like a confident 'MMSL' guy and take W on fun dates when I have so many doubts inside.
> 
> I let my friend know I won't need him to look further into my life right now. I don't feel like unlocking W's phone either, or doing anything else that would constitute breaking into her things. I just want these unpleasant vibes to go away, and my marriage to be like it was for 19 happy years. It's going to be hard planning an exciting date for the weekend, but I am determined to do it. I will not give up.
> 
> Logan


Logan my brother you can't nice your way out of this Please listen to advise given here you will be lost without it


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## Chaparral

just got it 55 said:


> Logan my brother you can't nice your way out of this Please listen to advise given here you will be lost without it


Its been tried and tried and tried again. It ain't worked yet in the two years and the well over a thousand threads I have seen.

Soon it will be too late if that time hasn't already passed. She has found a new high and she is going to have to be shocked out of it just like any other addict.


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## ASummersDay

Sounds like she is now in her mid-40s, has outgrown any insecurities she may have had in her younger years, and has now "come in to her own" so to speak. And is LOVING the attention.

People change, that's just a fact. You acknowledge that you have changed yourself over the years and maybe the changes you have undergone are not for the better. I'm willing to bet that what you are experiencing with your wife is the result of a pattern of changes that has occurred over many years, but their effects are just now becoming starkly evident.

Quite simply, you have drifted apart because you are different people now than when you got married almost 20 years ago. Your wife seems more aware and well-adjusted to that fact than you are. Who knows what's going through her mind or why she *seems* to be having an easier time coping with it than you are, but there it is.

I don't think your wife is cheating on you - yet. But it's very likely that she will, and it might not be too far in the future. The only chance you have at saving your marriage is to take the advice offered to you by others already. Elevate yourself immediately. Otherwise, she will perceive you as needy and clingy. Take the other posters' advice and implement the cool, aloof approach. It will be difficult, but it's the best thing you can do.


----------



## Shaggy

Logan, go to her car find the extra high heels she wears to pick up these other guys and snap the heels off and put them back where you found them

She's dressing up in f-me heels which have only 1 purpose , to attract other guts to f-her. 

I'm betting that she would never wear f-me heels to go out with you? And if she did, she's complain all night long about them hurting her feet.

Break the heels and call her out on her clearly crossing the lobe behavior. Martini bars and clubs with f-me heels are not about hanging with a friend. They are entirely about shopping for your replacement.

So stop playing her games and just call her out for her behavior opened trashing of the marriage.


----------



## weightlifter

Logan. I hope I am not one you consider looking down on you but seriously.

Your wife went dancing with strange men in a club. She IS getting closer and closer. 

At this point my only suggestion is a pen var in her purse. I know from above statements you are going to ignore it... Im just one of those guys who has to try to pull the person out of the way of the oncoming train. At least I can say I tried.

Oh and as usual I hope I am wrong. But I think I am right.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan 3 said:


> I let my friend know I won't need him to look further into my life right now. I don't feel like unlocking W's phone either, or doing anything else that would constitute breaking into her things. *I just want these unpleasant vibes to go away, and my marriage to be like it was for 19 happy years.* It's going to be hard planning an exciting date for the weekend, but I am determined to do it. I will not give up.Logan


That ship has SAILED. If she's not physically cheating on you yet, she will be sooner than you ever thought possible.

You can plan all the exciting dates you want. They won't be nearly as exciting to her, as her and her toxic friend stripping off their blazers in the martini bar parking lot, donning a pair of [email protected]_me_pumps, grabbing a cab and heading down to the "meat market" to get hit on by horny, younger, hotter, richer men.

If you're not going to try to prevent things from getting any worse, you should start preparing for the worst.

You may already be too late, but you'll never know unless you try.


----------



## Remains

She has hidden these clothing changes and nightclub visits from you. That means that there IS something to hide. This is VERY VERY worrying. You need to come down hard on this.


----------



## Iver

So she's out hitting dance clubs with a friend now on her GNO's? 

Okay...

You realize your marriage is on thin ice now?

You need to follow up with her on this - what dance club? Who was there? Is it a young crowd or what? (I assume any club with a lineup is ~ 20ish or so) Has she been there before? Also ask her if her GNO's which were supposed to be a movie and a drink with a friend - how many ended up at a dance club?

Ask her if she thinks you should be ok with this. Seriously.

But real soon you need to have her cut the cr*p here. A married woman isn't hitting the clubs with a girlfriend Saturday night....not if she wants to stay married for much longer.


----------



## Iver

Lastly - it's a shame your friend/P.I. couldn't stay until she left. 

She got home at 1? but you don't know if she left the club at 11 and went somewhere else.

You MUST get access to her text messages.


----------



## warlock07

You already have a PI on her. Better dive in to this completely rather than half-assing and regretting it later on.


----------



## weightlifter

Logan. I seriously have not been this addled on a thread in a long time.

I actually lost some sleep on this one cause honestly, I dont thinks she has sealed the deal yet. Ill put PA probability at 25% BUT RISING! FAST!!!!

1) The above are correct. No matter how good your date is, you are 40 and she is dancing with hotter 20 year olds. You represent hum drum life. There is no way for you to win this contest.
2) Today is a crossroads of your life. I am laying out the 3 roads in front of you.
a) Hire a semi hot FEMALE PI to follow her inside and give you the real scoop. odds. Dancing with other men hotter than you 95%.
Getting drinks from same 80%. Making out with them 35% Groped on the fun parts 35%. Sex 25%. There is VERY little chance she would be changing up her look and changing into fvck me pumps if it was for her friend.
b) Put your foot down now. My way or the highway. Be prepared to lose your marriage to keep it.
c) Current investigation path. Dude. Time is running out!
d) Do nothing.

Honestly DONT do D and realize you CANT compete. It is not in the realm of possibilities.
Maximize your time in C to a couple weeks. Dude, she is getting close
b) Is chancy as heck as its a weak confront tho not baseless.
a) Will cost you about $400

See my PM


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Logan 3 said:


> I let my friend know I won't need him to look further into my life right now. I don't feel like unlocking W's phone either, or doing anything else that would constitute breaking into her things. I just want these unpleasant vibes to go away, and my marriage to be like it was for 19 happy years. It's going to be hard planning an exciting date for the weekend, but I am determined to do it. I will not give up.
> 
> Logan



You like things to go away. If you see nothing, things are away!.

But you will see nothing because you deliberately put your head in the sand.


2 year olds put their hands before their eyes to hide things.


Same behavior.


----------



## sandc

Logan,
How many sad stories of infidelity were you privy to before coming to TAM? How many have you read since coming here? These folks have seen at least 10 guys just like you THIS YEAR ALONE. They all thought it was nothing. It wasn't and then after a while they come back and say "Well, you guys were right."

There are people who have actually been through this that are trying to tell you something. Don't ignore the advice. Cheaters follow a script and your wife is starting to exhibit signs of that script. This is the time to deal with it, not later after she's already given herself to someone else. Mind movies of her sucking and fvcking some guy in the parking lot like a cheap where, the emotional roller coaster, the rage, the hollow empty feeling that your wife will never be the same person to you again. This is where you are headed unless you do something now.

You can NOT say you were not warned. Best of luck.


----------



## Acabado

Remains said:


> She has hidden these clothing changes and nightclub visits from you. That means that there IS something to hide. This is VERY VERY worrying. You need to come down hard on this.


This.


----------



## weightlifter

Alot of us are addled because this one MAY NOT BE PHYSICAL YET! You may well have a chance to get away with damage that while it is murderously painful, will pale in comparison to what you will feel once you know another man has been inside your wife.


----------



## Iver

Logan,

I agree that at times some of the advice you've seen here is...not sugar coated, to put it mildly. (I've winced at a couple of the comments you've rec'd)

But do remember - sometimes medicine can be bitter. 

The good news here (yes there is some) is that it doesn't look like your W is actually hooked up with some dude yet. 

You are still in the ring and the fight is still on. Unfortunately closing your eyes and hoping time will reverse itself won’t actually work. (I speak from experience here. Sorry.) 

One word that comes up frequently when relationships are in distress is “boundaries” 

The problem here is your W is stepping over a clear boundary in your marriage. I don’t know if a MC session is in order or a simple discussion between the two of you will suffice. 

Remember - lots of people here are rooting for you.


----------



## Cubby

Logan 3 said:


> I let my friend know I won't need him to look further into my life right now. I don't feel like unlocking W's phone either, or doing anything else that would constitute breaking into her things. I just want these unpleasant vibes to go away, and my marriage to be like it was for 19 happy years. It's going to be hard planning an exciting date for the weekend, but I am determined to do it. I will not give up.
> 
> Logan


Logan, your tone here is one of resignation. You're in a tough spot, but you're going to have to rise to the challenge. As weightlifter said a few posts ago, you have to realize you can't compete with these young guys she's dancing (or more?) with. They're new and exciting, so she's loving the feel-good chemicals (dopamine, etc.) that she's experiencing. Her irritation with you when you ask too many questions reminds me of a drug addict. But that's essentially what she is. It's the same pleasure-inducing chemicals, and she doesn't want you to get in the way of her 'high.'

It sounds like you think romancing her more, taking her out on more dates is the answer. It's not. Deep down, in the biology of her mind, not consciously, she's repelled by you because you don't realize she's looking elsewhere. Subconsciously, she thinks that a real man would notice that she's looking elsewhere and would put a stop to it. By continuing to try and 'woo' her back through romantic dates and relationship talk, you'll only push her further away.

That's why you have to take the tough, firm and cool approach. And yes, as it's been mentioned, mentally you have to realize that your marriage may end, but you have to convince yourself that if it comes to that, you can do that. At least she'll respect and admire you for dealing with this from a position of strength and self-respect. And that's more attractive to her than you trying to win her back with romance and hoping this bad dream goes away.


----------



## sandc

And just speaking for myself, there is no "right to privacy" in a marriage. You grind your naughty bits together, you hear each other fart at night, maybe you even use the bathroom in front of one another but when it comes to phones and data we have the nebulous concept of privacy? There is no privacy between my wife and I. She has access to all my email and social media accounts and I to hers. If I want to listen to one of her phone calls she couldn't care less. Nor do I care if she listens to my phone calls. If I wanted to go out with her and her girlfriends on the VERY rare occaisions she goes out with them, I'd be welcome by her and her girlfriends. I wouldn't go because I have an estrogen tolerance problem. More than one woman talking in a group makes me feel slightly dizzy and nauseous. 

The point is that I do not believe there is a right to privacy in a marriage. That's just code-speak for "secrets." Again, this is how I view marriage.


----------



## nothingtodeclare

Logan, the only way the unpleasant vibes will go away is if you re-install healthy boundaries. As you have heard numerous times here, regular GNOs (or BNOs) are toxic. Nightclubs and dancing without the spouse is begging for trouble. Your wife has changed, but that doesn't mean you twiddle your thumbs while she is at some meat market getting her groove on. Put on the pants and let her know that this kind of singles behavior violates normal and healthy boundaries. Just because she wants to do something "different" doesn't make it right. You are not OK with it and it must stop. 

Let her know that if she wants to go act single, she will be single. Her experiment is over. The occasional ****tail with a friend is OK, but there is no reason to regularly exclude the spouse. If she wants to get her drink and groove on, on a regular basis, it will be with you. Have this discussion tonight. Don't wait for things to go back to the way they were; they won't.


----------



## Iver

nothingtodeclare said:


> Logan, the only way the unpleasant vibes will go away is if you re-install healthy boundaries. As you have heard numerous times here, regular GNOs (or BNOs) are toxic. Nightclubs and dancing without the spouse is begging for trouble. Your wife has changed, but that doesn't mean you twiddle your thumbs while she is at some meat market getting her groove on. Put on the pants and let her know that this kind of singles behavior violates normal and healthy boundaries. Just because she wants to do something "different" doesn't make it right. You are not OK with it and it must stop.
> 
> Let her know that if she wants to go act single, she will be single. Her experiment is over. The occasional ****tail with a friend is OK, but there is no reason to regularly exclude the spouse. If she wants to get her drink and groove on, on a regular basis, it will be with you. Have this discussion tonight. Don't wait for things to go back to the way they were; they won't.


Logan, re-read this post several times. If necessary print it out and carry it with you.

I think MC (marriage counselling) may be helpful for you and W as well. I get the sense from your reports that there's not a lot of heart to heart communication going on between you.

You need to get to the underlying problems in your marriage (and yes, there is a serious problem for your wife to disrespect you in the way she has)


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

just got it 55 said:


> Logan my brother you can't nice your way out of this Please listen to advise given here you will be lost without it


I had to deal with a similar story. The girl got all dressed up, wore normal close and then I found out she changed into something I consider tr#%@y. Then she said she was going over her girlfriends house and end up at a completely different location.

Boy, I let her have it when I found out. 














This was my daughter and she is seventeen. Your wife needs to grow the F up.


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## Lmodel

I'd be worried mate. It's a familiar story to plenty of people on here and unfortunately the end result for many has been pretty ordinary. I suspect your wife is well and truly walking through " the fog". I don't think it takes much for some people, they loose some weight, gain some confidence, life's good, someone compliments them a few times, you're busy at work and it unfortunately snowballs from there. It's no excuse but in many cases it's as simple as that.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I had to deal with a similar story. The girl got all dressed up, wore normal close and then I found out she changed into something I consider tr#%@y. Then she said she was going over her girlfriends house and end up at a completely different location.
> 
> *Boy, I let her have it when I found out.*
> 
> This was my daughter and she is seventeen. Your wife needs to grow the F up.


From what I can tell, Logan is still planning on trying to "nice" her back into doing the proper, moral and right thing.

We all know too well how this just makes thinks worse.


----------



## Logan 3

Thanks for the responses. I sat W down for a talk last night. As Iver and Nothingtodeclare suggested, I got real with her. For the sake of our family, I said going out solo with friends had to stop. If she wanted to go to clubs, lounges and places like that, we could go as a couple. W said she would rather not go at all. I told her that was fine. Initially, she got furious, even when I emphasized that it was for the good of our relationship and our kids. Later, she started crying. She told me: "They said you would act this way. You don't want me to have any life outside this safe, boring routine."

I pointed out that I was happy to bring exciting activities into our lives, but we should do it together. No matter how logical my comments were, I knew she was going to leave the conversation unhappy. We agreed there would be no more coming home past midnight. She was going to continue her activities at the gym, and occasionally socialize during the day, but no more GNOs. After reaching this compromise, W still went away sulking...

She's already cancelled tentative plans with a GF for the weekend, but seems resentful about it, and hasn't been receptive to planning any dates with just the two of us. I will be patient, since I know W has to make a big adjustment now. Hopefully, the lack of GNOs will eventually bring her out of the "fog" so she can focus on our M again. For my part, I'm happy that I took a stand. I will let you know how everything progresses from here.

Logan


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan 3 said:


> Thanks for the responses. I sat W down for a talk last night. As Iver and Nothingtodeclare suggested, I got real with her. For the sake of our family, I said going out solo with friends had to stop. If she wanted to go to clubs, lounges and places like that, we could go as a couple. W said she would rather not go at all. I told her that was fine. Initially, she got furious, even when I emphasized that it was for the good of our relationship and our kids. Later, she started crying. She told me: "They said you would act this way. You don't want me to have any life outside this safe, boring routine."
> 
> I pointed out that I was happy to bring exciting activities into our lives, but we should do it together. No matter how logical my comments were, I knew she was going to leave the conversation unhappy. We agreed there would be no more coming home past midnight. She was going to continue her activities at the gym, and occasionally socialize during the day, but no more GNOs. After reaching this compromise, W still went away sulking...
> 
> She's already cancelled tentative plans with a GF for the weekend, but seems resentful about it, and hasn't been receptive to planning any dates with just the two of us. I will be patient, since I know W has to make a big adjustment now. Hopefully, the lack of GNOs will eventually bring her out of the "fog" so she can focus on our M again. For my part, I'm happy that I took a stand. I will let you know how everything progresses from here.
> 
> Logan


Does she know, that you know, that she was sneaking from the martini bar to the night club/meat market?


----------



## Logan 3

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Does she know, that you know, that she was sneaking from the martini bar to the night club/meat market?


Groundpounder, she admitted as much when I prompted her after getting home that night


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## nothingtodeclare

Good job standing up for the marriage. Of course it's going to sting her a little. The going out all night, and the corresponding increase in outside attention, were exciting for her. Exciting in a bad way and don't forget that. Keep your head high and keep working on you.


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## sandc

For Pete's sake she's sulking like a 16 year old girl. Stand firm. SOMEONE has to be the adult. You've done well now don't cave in to her sulking. She will get over her tantrum in time. 

I would plan an exciting evening anyway. Ask her to go, if she refuses, go yourself. Maybe go with one of your kids. Make sure she can't go anywhere. Take her car keys or her car's battery or whatever it takes. When you get back tell her how much fun you had. Eventually she will want to join you.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan 3 said:


> Groundpounder, she admitted as much when I prompted her after getting home that night


Well Logan, I for one am impressed with how this has worked out for you, so far.

I know I've been hopping on you to be more sneaky and agressive in your approach. But it seems that confronting the way you did made things less dramatic then that would have been. All be it, not quite the response I would have hoped for.

You're wife is obviously looking for attention. She doesn't seem that thrilled with your allternative of you two going out to clubs.

This is worrysum..


----------



## Shaggy

Good job.

Now get prepared because she's going to test you and your resolve.

And make sure you keep offering to go have fun with her, offer ever night. It's bull from her that she can only have fun with singles.

If she insists she needs to have time as a single to be happy, offer to make it permanent.

See she knows she was crossing the line and lying to you. She's been talking about it with others who are coaching her. Expect them to help her fight having boundaries.

It's also clear she's been enjoying the men she meets when she's out acting single. Be on the watch for some of them seeking contact with her and trying to entice her out to play again.


----------



## Shaggy

DO you now have a var in place in her car to hear what she's saying to her toxic friends?


----------



## RFguy

Shaggy said:


> Good job.
> 
> Now get prepared because she's going to test you and your resolve.
> 
> And make sure you keep offering to go have fun with her, offer ever night. It's bull from her that she can only have fun with singles.
> 
> If she insists she needs to have time as a single to be happy, offer to make it permanent.
> 
> See she knows she was crossing the line and lying to you. She's been talking about it with others who are coaching her. Expect them to help her fight having boundaries.
> 
> It's also clear she's been enjoying the men she meets when she's out acting single. Be on the watch for some of them seeking contact with her and trying to entice her out to play again.


This.

It's not over yet, you have to be rigid and unyielding. Make her understand that divorce IS an option. And go NSA on her.


----------



## Shaggy

Why does she not allow you out with her? It not like she's going to places where men aren't allowed. Oh wait, there is the reason.


----------



## Acabado

Logan 3 said:


> She told me: "*They* said you would act this way. You don't want me to have any life outside this safe, boring routine."


Priceless. Who are they? Wasn't it just a single friend? ...so are "they" married (and cheating)? Are "they" more people they hang around?
Clearly toxic friends everywehre.
I believe it's now the moment to snoop her interactions with toxic friends. You will get rather soon wher's her head.


ETA
Shaggy as usual already pointed out.


----------



## Iver

Good Job Logan!

Unfortunately this probably will not end here. 

Do you know who "they" are - the ones who think it's OK for a married woman to be out clubbing on the weekends? I'd nail this down because nothing good is going to come from associating with these people. (especially if we are talking about dudes here)

I reread your message and the second time around this hit me a lot harder: "W said she would rather not go at all." So she would rather not go out with you at all is what she's saying.

That is REALLY not good. 

I would suggest a getaway for just the two of you for starters - something like a spa retreat could be good. 

But. 

You should think about finding a good marriage counselor, someone who is pro marriage if this attitude continues. 

The text messages - especially since the VAR is not getting anything - still needs to be done. 

I know you don't want to do it but you need to understand what is going on here, especially considering the level of disrespect W is showing you. 

Logan, earlier I'd written that you were still in the ring and the fight was still on....well you landed a good solid one so good on you...but the fight isn't over and you need to keep pressing forward. Keep blasting it at the gym & keep losing weight (you are losing weight right???)

Again - Good Job.


----------



## warlock07

She told me: "They said you would act this way. 

Who are "they" ? There has been some bashing going around..Someone in her new circle is bashing you na d influencing her opinion f you


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

"They said you would act this way."

Yes, I agree. I would not give her a rest until she tells who exactly "They" are. Names, relationonship statuses and where they live for starters.

This could turn out to be quite the little ribbit hole unto itself...


----------



## The Middleman

Logan, if I were in your position, I would reach out to these women who are toxic to your marriage and filling your wife's head with bullsh1t and read them the riot act. They need to get their ass kicked a little for how they are corrupting your wife. I wouldn't do it right now, I'd wait to see how committed your wife is to "re-growing up" first. If there is difficulty and you find out they are working against you (and they will), then go after them.


----------



## Flygirl

TRy said:


> This line concerns me. She is out late drinking, comes home after you are asleep, and then takes a shower. Sorry but this is exactly what a woman that is having sex with another man does. Her spending less time with you and more time with new friends that you do not know, only adds to the pattern. It is time to discuss your marraige and acceptable martial boundaries with her; i.e. no staying out late or going to bars without you.
> 
> Also, ask her if your happiness is a priority with her the same way that her happiness is a priority with you. Tell her that you will not continue to make someone a priority in your life that does not make you a priority; tell her that she cannot have it both ways any longer.


Am I being naive to think maybe she's showering when she gets home because she smells like a bar (smoke & alcohol) and doesn't want to lay down next to her husband like that?


----------



## weightlifter

Logan. Did she say she danced with her friends or men? I assume men but dancing with her female friends is a justification theme I see alot.

You might reverse this on her.

"Wife, how would YOU feel if I said I was going to a sports bar then later went to a dance club and danced with younger women?"


----------



## Logan 3

Shaggy said:


> DO you now have a var in place in her car to hear what she's saying to her toxic friends?


It's been there for a few weeks. Apparently she doesn't have extensive conversations while in the car.



weightlifter said:


> Logan. Did she say she danced with her friends or men? I assume men but dancing with her female friends is a justification theme I see alot.


We didn't get into specifics about what kind of dancing. The fact that W even went to that kind of place was surprising, given that she's always had two left feet. Anyway, the dancing days should be over now...


----------



## weightlifter

Logan 3 said:


> It's been there for a few weeks. Apparently she doesn't have extensive conversations while in the car.
> 
> 
> 
> We didn't get into specifics about what kind of dancing. The fact that W even went to that kind of place was surprising, given that she's always had two left feet. Anyway, the dancing days should be over now...


I would still follow up on that and as I assume it was males, discuss that getting validation from men not your husband is poison to a marriage.


----------



## Acabado

Logan 3 said:


> We didn't get into specifics about what kind of dancing. The fact that W even went to that kind of place was surprising, given that she's always had two left feet. Anyway, the dancing days should be over now...


You can dance with her. You can even join dance classes, rock climbing... whatever. It's not a matter of dancing, going out, drinking and partying. It's about not hitting meat markets on her own, living the single life.

The world "controling" is what is just now poppin in her head like a hammer. Remember "controling" only comes up when you have different agendas (marriage bulding vs single life behavior) so any boundarie, reasonable expectation will come as an obstacle to her "happiness" as she sees it now.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan 3 said:


> We didn't get into specifics about what kind of dancing. The fact that W even went to that kind of place was surprising, given that she's always had two left feet. *Anyway, the dancing days should be over now...*


Maybe, but not with out a fight...

First off, whether she was going to that(and any other) club to dance with, men, get hit on by men, flirt with men, or worse - She's not going to give this up that easily. And YES, what ever she was doing, she was doing it for, or with a man, or men.

This is still new and exciting to her. You do realize that she's going to push back about this. Her toxic friend(s) will probably play a big part in what she says and does, while trying to get GNO back on her schedule and into her life again. 

I think the biggest problem here is that it's gone on for faaar too long. The longer the addiction, the tougher detox. There's a battle a brewin', so polish your sword and grab your shield...


----------



## Cubby

Logan, while she's mad at you and pouting now for taking away her exciting new adventures, in the long run she'll respect you more (and be more attractive to her) for taking a stand being a guy nobody walks all over. Good job.


----------



## tom67

Your kids are old enough plan a long weekend getaway, surprise her.


----------



## Iver

Be careful not to be too much of a nice understanding guy here...

Remember this:

Nice = Weak

Weak = Contempt

I'm not saying you should be a jerk but you need to take charge of the situation. Less asking and more telling.

Have you finished MMSL? Any takeaways you want to implement?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Iver said:


> Be careful not to be too much of a nice understanding guy here...
> 
> Remember this:
> 
> Nice = Weak
> 
> Weak = Contempt
> 
> I'm not saying you should be a jerk but you need to take charge of the situation. Less asking and more telling.
> 
> Have you finished MMSL? Any takeaways you want to implement?


I agree. Not so much mean, or hurtful/spiteful.

More like becoming a little dark and somewhat mysterious. 

She's attracted to the new's and the unknow's at the dance club(s) and got sneaky to get herfelf there.

Start being more aloof yourself. When she starts to question you on where you've been going, who you were with, or what you did - Reminder her that you where asking her the same things about the GNO's. That you had to corner her to get any real answers about it and that you still aren't sure exactly why she was going to and what she was doing at the dance club(s).

The next words should come from her. If she won't talk first, then just walk away and let her think about it.

I know, I'm a drama king. I just think that she'll have to be shown how what she has done(GNOs) is so dangerous and potentially damaging to your marriage.


----------



## Cubby

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> I agree. Not so much mean, or hurtful/spiteful.
> 
> More like becoming a little dark and somewhat mysterious.
> 
> She's attracted to the new's and the unknow's at the dance club(s) and got sneaky to get herfelf there.
> 
> Start being more aloof yourself. When she starts to question you on where you've been going, who you were with, or what you did - Reminder her that you where asking her the same things about the GNO's. That you had to corner her to get any real answers about it and that you still aren't sure exactly why she was going to and what she was doing at the dance club(s).
> 
> The next words should come from her. If she won't talk first, then just walk away and let her think about it.
> 
> *I know, I'm a drama king. I just think that she'll have to be shown how what she has done(GNOs) is so dangerous and potentially damaging to your marriage*.


:iagree: I'm assuming she actually didn't cheat, meaning physical sex. At least that's what it seems at this point. (I know, there's a chance she did....) But that's what makes this such a difficult situation for Logan. He can't turn her world upside down with a filing of divorce papers and full exposure over her being inappropriate at dance clubs like he could with full-blown cheating. So right now, there are no major consequences for her to shake some sense into her. 

What she sees and what she likes is attention and flirty stuff with new hot guys. She doesn't see how destructive that stuff is and only sees a boring "controlling" husband (because she's been with you so long) who wants to put an end to the addictive fun.

So the question is, how do you get her to see how destructive her behavior is? After all, it's just fun nights out dancing. No sex involved. Or maybe she doesn't value her marriage and does see that it's destructive and she's gonna have her fun come hell or high water?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Cubby said:


> :iagree: I'm assuming she actually didn't cheat, meaning physical sex. At least that's what it seems at this point. (I know, there's a chance she did....) But that's what makes this such a difficult situation for Logan. *He can't turn her world upside down with a filing of divorce papers and full exposure over her being inappropriate at dance clubs like he could with full-blown cheating.* So right now, there are no major consequences for her to shake some sense into her.


I'll bet he could. It would be completely over the top for the info he's got but would send a ridiculously strong message about how seriously he takes this.

I'm not advocating this, it being a major over reaction to what he knows. But bear in mind that while it would be an over reaction to what he knows, it might not be an over reaction to what _she_ knows.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I've been reading a lot of threads, but didn't she agree to cut out the gno's? If so then just monitor.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Nucking Futs said:


> I'll bet he could. It would be completely over the top for the info he's got but would send a ridiculously strong message about how seriously he takes this.
> 
> I'm not advocating this, it being a major over reaction to what he knows. But bear in mind that while it would be an over reaction to what he knows, it might not be an over reaction to what _she_ knows.
> 
> *Correct me if I'm wrong, I've been reading a lot of threads, but didn't she agree to cut out the gno's?* If so then just monitor.


Yes she did, but with an attitude of Logan was trying to control her and not let her have freinds, or fun without him being there.

So, we all know this is far from over. There will be more "attitude", Rebuttal and rebuff about no, or regulated, GNO's.

I think the phone texts and calls with her toxic freind(s) are going to spike in the days/weeks to come.

If Logan can read/VAR what she's telling her freind(s), he know how far the clubing thing went.


----------



## Lovemytruck

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Yes she did, but with an attitude of Logan was trying to control her and not let her have freinds, or fun without him being there.
> 
> So, *we all know this is far from over*. There will be more "attitude", Rebuttal and rebuff about no, or regulated, GNO's.
> 
> I think the phone texts and calls with her toxic freind(s) are going to spike in the days/weeks to come.
> 
> If Logan can read/VAR what she's telling her freind(s), he know how far the clubing thing went.


And, unfortunately, the truth will finally come out. It might be days, weeks, or a few months.

Then we will all be sick inside with the OP. Watching him go from utter shock to anger to limbo. An attempt at R somewhere in between. 

Eventually the WW will post a thread and wonder what she was doing. She won't believe that she, of all people, cheated. Now she is so sorry, and wants to make it all better again.

I am growing cynical. We should have marriage contracts that expire every 5 years or so with std checks prior to renewal. That way we could just opt out, and start with a new spouse if ours is infected. 

Too bad kids live through all of this crap. At least they get food, water, deceitful parents, and video games.

BNO? Just sayin'! Can't beat 'em, join 'em. Just make sure you go to the club on the other side of town. That way she can't "control" your fun. 

Maybe my coffee was too strong today. Lol!

These threads are painfully common. The reality sux!

My heart bleeds for those of you going through this. 

Sorry for the sarcasm.


----------



## ScrewedEverything

Ive just skimmed through this thread and it's appalling. The guy had what sounds like a very nice stable marriage, the wife went through a rough patch but pulled herself out of it and turned herself around, Now she's fit and happy. Good for her and good for Logan! So instead of encouraging Logan to embrace that and be happy for her and work with her on ways to come together around it and make that a positive for both of them - a new spark in their marriage - the predictably paranoid advice he gets here is to bug her car, snoop into her phone, take away the things that make her happy. Way to poison a relationship and turn what might have been a very good thing into a sure-to-be bad thing.

Logan, my wife has gone through the same thing, from the weight loss, and work out obsession, to the lulu's, going out more with her friends, right down to the singing along to new kinds of music. Trust me, the worst thing you can do is let insecurities drive your actions right now. Maybe before you spend any more time listening to covert recordings and telling her who she can be friends with, try having a conversation with her - maybe tell her you are really proud of what she's done for herself and you are glad that she is a happier, more confident person but tell her that you want to share in that, so you are willing to make some changes too and figure out how you can change as a couple.


----------



## Iver

He expects his wife to act like a married woman not a single girl. 

Hitting the bars & clubs every weekend getting her "groove on" without him (FYI he did ask to go with her - she shot that down) is what the problem here is.

Don't point the finger at Logan for his wife's poor behavior.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

ScrewedEverything said:


> Ive just skimmed through this thread and it's appalling.


Skimming will cause you to make mistakes. Unless, of course, you are saying you would be okay with your wife lying to you about her where she went. She lied about where she went, changed clothes and shoes then stayed out all night. Bettering yourself is one thing, playing single teenage games is another.


----------



## Chaparral

If you have to, ask her who she dances with when out. If she says the girls ask her if she changes into ef me heels to impress other women.

However you do it, she has to know divorce us an option, unfortunately.


----------



## just got it 55

Logan 3 said:


> Thanks for the responses. I sat W down for a talk last night. As Iver and Nothingtodeclare suggested, I got real with her. For the sake of our family, I said going out solo with friends had to stop. If she wanted to go to clubs, lounges and places like that, we could go as a couple. W said she would rather not go at all. I told her that was fine. Initially, she got furious, even when I emphasized that it was for the good of our relationship and our kids. Later, she started crying. She told me: "They said you would act this way. You don't want me to have any life outside this safe, boring routine."
> 
> I pointed out that I was happy to bring exciting activities into our lives, but we should do it together. No matter how logical my comments were, I knew she was going to leave the conversation unhappy. We agreed there would be no more coming home past midnight. She was going to continue her activities at the gym, and occasionally socialize during the day, but no more GNOs. After reaching this compromise, W still went away sulking...
> 
> She's already cancelled tentative plans with a GF for the weekend, but seems resentful about it, and hasn't been receptive to planning any dates with just the two of us. I will be patient, since I know W has to make a big adjustment now. Hopefully, the lack of GNOs will eventually bring her out of the "fog" so she can focus on our M again. For my part, I'm happy that I took a stand. I will let you know how everything progresses from here.
> 
> Logan


Sooner would have been better but now you can gain some control I hope you can turn this around


----------



## x-ray

sounds like the first set of shoes she wore would be better for dancing?

Bit like going to a construction site in flip-flops


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

x-ray said:


> sounds like the first set of shoes she wore would be better for dancing?
> 
> Bit like going to a construction site in flip-flops


Excellent point.

Maybe she owns a pair of steel-toed stilettos.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Logan,

I hope my sarcastic rant yesterday didn't bring you down. It probably triggers many of us when we see the flip attitude that your wife has shown.

Hope must exist for your marriage to succeed. Please know that the "paranoid" ideas that many of us share are based on our factual experiences.

Cautiously optimistic? Trust but verify? Obviously your gut has told you there is a problem beyond dancing on GNO.

The decisions your wife has or will make are often beyond your control. Know that IF she is cheating, it is not on your head.

The stuff you talk about feels like a train wreck coming down the tracks. Use this time to evaluate your plan if it happens. I wish I would have been better prepared emotionally for my first d-day. Wish I could have detached more. Wish I could have not been so crushed.

The bright side to having a deceitful spouse is that it doesn't have to be permanent. The relationship can adapt or you can migrate.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

I think you need to bug her some more about details of this cheating behavior on the GNO. Call it that way. She needs to be aware this is really bad.

At the same time start having meaningfull time as a partner, talking, and other times doing fun things. Bond again.


...And keep an eye open to watch for other red flags for the coming months.


----------



## BobSimmons

Ouch, so you said let's go out as a couple and she said I'd rather not go at all? Talk about rejection.


----------



## Iver

Well at least it's clear now why she was coming home smelling like cigarette smoke after her GNO's.

You might want to recall when this started and if there is any correlation with anyone new she was spending time with - a new friend or some such.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Iver said:


> *Well at least it's clear now why she was coming home smelling like cigarette smoke after her GNO's.*
> You might want to recall when this started and if there is any correlation with anyone new she was spending time with - a new friend or some such.


Supposedly that's why she had to take showers before going to bed, after GNOs.....


----------



## Remains

To also respond to Screwed Everything's post, READ THE THREAD.

Logan has tried the talks, he has tried to embrace her new changes, and he has tried to join her, go on more dates, try doing more things together....all those that you suggest have been done. 

Her responses have been from complete disinterest to total rejection. 

Oh, and she has lied repeatedly about what she is doing, what she is wearing and where she is going on a night.

If I was going out clubbing on the sly in my hidden in the boot of the car for a sneaky change fu*k me heels, if all this was hidden from my fella, then I think it would be because I have something to hide....and it wouldn't be a 'nice chat and coffee with my friend'. There is only one reason to hide this. And it ain't because Logan would have been so controlling that she wouldn't be allowed.

So, do you think you need to change your advice, and maybe read the thread, before you jump to such a 'crazy conclusion'? 

SE, I understand where you are coming from with the 'paranoid predictability' remark, it does seem like that at 1st....you have been here only a month and posted 22 times.....that is nowhere near long enough for you to have gained any cheating behaviour intuition, and nowhere near long enough to have been educated on the signs, the red flags, and the behaviours. You put very little importance on what is actually highly significant behaviours. Understandable again. Read on, keep reading threads, and notice the signs and similarities. It is a very worthwhile education, and this forum is the best that is out there. No others come close.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Also, many of us were getting on Logan's case to find out EXACTLY what his wife does during GNOs. He didn't seem to realize that this was what it was all about. Loosing weight, working out, etc..

She starts to go out. Get's some attention. Likes it. Now GNO is a regular thing. 

To me, finding out what she did on a given GNO should have been mandatory. An opportunity lost.

So what did she do during GNO's?... He'll never know for sure, Only what she tells him. "Drinks and dancing", you can fill in the blanks...


----------



## weightlifter

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Also, many of us were getting on Logan's case to find out EXACTLY what his wife does during GNOs. He didn't seem to realize that this was what it was all about. Loosing weight, working out, etc..
> 
> She starts to go out. Get's some attention. Likes it. Now GNO is a regular thing.
> 
> To me, finding out what she did on a given GNO should have been mandatory. An opportunity lost.
> 
> So what did she do during GNO's?... He'll never know for sure, Only what she tells him. "Drinks and dancing", you can fill in the blanks...


Me too. I am an investigation guy. That being said. Logan is satisfied with the results. THis is HIS road and his alone. yes I think he erred but that is damn easy of me considering I am 500? miles away from him.

I also think he knows damn well next time he is gone she is going back. Logan, I suggest, have a female PI ready to go because a female will be able to get into those clubs. I believe you are going to need her.

I hope I am wrong.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

I have to wonder if his break in posting here is due to him being busy gathering intel...

He certainly seems like a smart person, if not a little too trusting and naive, when it comes to his wife.

She was pretty p!ssed at him shutting down her going to the meat market(s). You know she's be discussing this with her toxic friend(s).

If so, he's probably not that happy after hearing/seeing what she's been saying about this and about him.


----------



## Logan 3

ScrewedEverything said:


> Logan, my wife has gone through the same thing, from the weight loss, and work out obsession, to the lulu's, going out more with her friends, right down to the singing along to new kinds of music.





ScrewedEverything said:


> The guy had what sounds like a very nice stable marriage, the wife went through a rough patch but pulled herself out of it and turned herself around, Now she's fit and happy. Good for her and good for Logan!


This is why I feel stuck. W's activities aren't exactly hurting anyone, and they do have positive aspects. So why do they give me negative feelings? Maybe W going dancing with a friend wasn't the worst thing ever... Maybe letting my friend follow them in his car was out of line? All I know is I'm doing the best I can to hold onto my M.

It's understandable that W isn't in good spirits, since we've totally upended her social routine. She didn't want to do any of the activities I suggested this weekend. She just stayed home - sleeping, reading, working on her laptop. Obviously she’s pouting, but I'm trying to deal with it in an MMSL way. I'm not apologizing, getting mad, seeking approval, or rewarding bad behavior. I'm keeping an even keel, staying active, and treating her respectfully whenever she chooses to be in a good mood.

One of the problems I can't fix by treating W in a detached way, however, involves her relationship with our kids. Two examples already cropped up this week. The first happened when my son and his friend spent Saturday night playing video games at home. By Saturday, W was starting to feel really insulted about not being "allowed" to see her friends... 

According to my son, she walked through the den on her way to the kitchen, tripping over some cables they'd left on the floor. W sarcastically said: "Like it would be the worst thing if anyone ever got out of the house around here." After she left, my son's friend mentioned to him: "I never knew your Mom was so b****y." A big reality check, since W used to be the queen of birthday parties and sleepovers for our kids' circle of friends.

The second example happened when W and our daughter went shopping. According to my daughter, they were walking through the mall when a guy in baggy clothes made a joke, passing the other way. He pointed to a store and said: "Hit that 2-for-1 sale ladies, since you're like sisters and like sharing clothes and sh**". My daughter said he was overly loud and sketchy. Her natural response was to ignore the comment and keep walking. W, on the other hand, sarcastically told him: "Better get your eyes checked, buddy"...

My daughter started walking even faster, trying to show W the best way of dealing with creeps at the mall. When she turned around, however, W was still in the same place, impatiently listening to the creep. W finally noticed her waiting up ahead and walked forward. W rolled her eyes, as if to say: "Could you believe that guy?"

Mr. Baggy Pants just stood there, openly checking W out from behind. My daughter found it odd that W seemed so upset about being accosted, but then walked away slowly. W acted like they were both equally annoyed by the guy's behavior. My daughter didn't explain that the more surprising part was actually W's reaction. They never discussed it again.

At the end of the day, W appears to be complying with the terms we agreed to on Tuesday, and I am able to curb some of her "sulking" behavior by taking a firm, detached approach. Part of her stress could be getting displaced onto the kids, though, which would be unfair as well as difficult for me to manage. I'm taking it one day at a time, and we'll just have to see what this week has in store. Thanks as always for the support.

Logan


----------



## warlock07

Yeah, she probably was delighted to be called your daughter's sister


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan 3 said:


> This is why I feel stuck. W's activities aren't exactly hurting anyone, and they do have positive aspects. So why do they give me negative feelings? Maybe W going dancing with a friend wasn't the worst thing ever... Maybe letting my friend follow them in his car was out of line? All I know is I'm doing the best I can to hold onto my M.
> 
> It's understandable that W isn't in good spirits, since we've totally upended her social routine. She didn't want to do any of the activities I suggested this weekend. She just stayed home - sleeping, reading, working on her laptop. Obviously she’s pouting, but I'm trying to deal with it in an MMSL way. I'm not apologizing, getting mad, seeking approval, or rewarding bad behavior. I'm keeping an even keel, staying active, and treating her respectfully whenever she chooses to be in a good mood.
> 
> One of the problems I can't fix by treating W in a detached way, however, involves her relationship with our kids. Two examples already cropped up this week. The first happened when my son and his friend spent Saturday night playing video games at home. By Saturday, W was starting to feel really insulted about not being "allowed" to see her friends...
> 
> According to my son, she walked through the den on her way to the kitchen, tripping over some cables they'd left on the floor. W sarcastically said: "Like it would be the worst thing if anyone ever got out of the house around here." After she left, my son's friend mentioned to him: "I never knew your Mom was so b****y." A big reality check, since W used to be the queen of birthday parties and sleepovers for our kids' circle of friends.
> 
> The second example happened when W and our daughter went shopping. According to my daughter, they were walking through the mall when a guy in baggy clothes made a joke, passing the other way. He pointed to a store and said: "Hit that 2-for-1 sale ladies, since you're like sisters and like sharing clothes and sh**". My daughter said he was overly loud and sketchy. Her natural response was to ignore the comment and keep walking. W, on the other hand, sarcastically told him: "Better get your eyes checked, buddy"...
> 
> My daughter started walking even faster, trying to show W the best way of dealing with creeps at the mall. When she turned around, however, W was still in the same place, impatiently listening to the creep. W finally noticed her waiting up ahead and walked forward. W rolled her eyes, as if to say: "Could you believe that guy?"
> 
> Mr. Baggy Pants just stood there, openly checking W out from behind. My daughter found it odd that W seemed so upset about being accosted, but then walked away slowly. W acted like they were both equally annoyed by the guy's behavior. My daughter didn't explain that the more surprising part was actually W's reaction. They never discussed it again.
> 
> At the end of the day, W appears to be complying with the terms we agreed to on Tuesday, and I am able to curb some of her "sulking" behavior by taking a firm, detached approach. Part of her stress could be getting displaced onto the kids, though, which would be unfair as well as difficult for me to manage. I'm taking it one day at a time, and we'll just have to see what this week has in store. Thanks as always for the support.
> 
> Logan


You have the "negative feelings" because you just don't know what you stopped her from doing...

Was if it's just a few drinks and socializing with her female friends?
Was if it's just a few drinks and socializing with her male friends?... 

Did she ever tell you who she would dance with when at this club? I'd have a hard time believing that after all the GNO's, not one male would ask her to dance... Or flirt with and even hit on her for that matter. Men go to these places with one objective in mind. Many of them could car less if the woman's married either.

She's in a p!ssy mood because you've cut of her fix(GNO).

To me, the big question will always be, what exactly went on in that club? Like how she reacted when men started talking to her, or was she dancing with men? A few different men, or just ONE MAN. Was she wearing her wedding ring when she was at the club? How did her toxic friend behave whole there?

Questions you'll probably never get the answers to now.

You don't want to believe that you wife is capable of doing any of what I have listed above. She may not have done any of it, but she's capable. We all are.

If she keeps up here attitude and you decide to let her have a GNO, or two again, HIRE A PI this time. Then you'll know.


----------



## Shaggy

Logan,

Your wife wasn't just socializing with her friends.

Your wife was #1 lying to you

Your wife was dressing up in f-me heels especially to pickup men in a dance club

(Btw, as she ever, and I mean ever dressed like that for a night with you? - says a lot doesn't it?)

And then there is the level of reaction and protest. Notice how long she's carrying this, and how far. Her very marriage is in fact on the line here and she's not at all worried. She is instead acting *****y and petulant. That's how a teenager acts when told she can't see her bf.

Be very careful because the other thing teenagers do is to lie and find a way to do it anyway.

So be checking up on her big time. Be on the watch for contrived situations. I certainly hope you don't have any trips where you will be away planned.

And keep making plans to go out and have fun with her. Have her continue to refuse, don't ask her in a passive way, instead straight forward like a leader. State you and her need to get out and go do X. When she refuses you can either go yourself, or you can call her out. Look her in the eye and calmly say, "so you are refusing to go out with your husband? we both know you'd be strapping on you f-me heels and shorter skirt to run to a meat market with your wing woman if given the chance. Come on honey, are you in this marriage and with me, or is your priority to be single?"


----------



## sandc

She's going to try to sneak out at some point. Be ready to deal with it.


----------



## Iver

I think how you're handling this is exactly what you need to be doing - in terms of your attitude.

You are still holding off on checking her texting - I have to tell you I think that is a serious mistake. My concern here is you don't know what is really going on with W and you're running the risk of getting K.O'd in a big way.

At the least this would help you guage how much trouble your marriage is in and if MC is in order. 

Lastly, the reason (again) W's actions give you a negative feeling is they are out of bounds for a married woman. Period. Nothing wrong with hitting the clubs every weekend with a girlfriend...if you're single. 

You made a very serious error in judgement in allowing this nonsense to both start and continue for as long as it did. 

Do not compound that error by not taking this seriously. 

I might be wrong (I hope I am) but I think your marriage is in crisis and there's a good chance W will be discussing separation / divorce with you in the near future.


----------



## weightlifter

sandc said:


> She's going to try to sneak out at some point. Be ready to deal with it.


Hopefully he gets the intel done so he then knows the whole thing.


----------



## Cubby

Logan 3 said:


> Later, she started crying. She told me: "They said you would act this way. You don't want me to have any life outside this safe, boring routine."


I keep thinking of that line from when Logan posted a few days ago. It's troublesome. But it provides a glimpse, along with his friend's report about the wardrobe change, of where her head is at. There has to be so much more Logan doesn't know about.

The generally b!tchiness at home shows her to be really irked that Logan's showing resistance to the GNOs. Like she's addicted and was having a lot of fun out there, but now it's being taken away. All signs are pointing to her having an incredible amount of fun out there.


----------



## azteca1986

Logan 3 said:


> If she wanted to go to clubs, lounges and places like that, we could go as a couple. W said she would rather not go at all.


This has always been the key part of their exchange. She's currently acting like a moody teenager, not because Logan said she couldn't go clubbing. He wanted to come along too. His mere presence was enough to stop her wanting to go clubbing altogether.

In your shoes Logan, I would like to know why.


----------



## Cubby

azteca1986 said:


> This has always been the key part of their exchange. She's currently acting like a moody teenager, not because Logan said she couldn't go clubbing. He wanted to come along too. His mere presence was enough to stop her wanting to go clubbing altogether.
> 
> In your shoes Logan, I would like to know why.


Yes! It's not the club, it's who's at the club.


----------



## shaung

Shaggy said:


> Logan,
> 
> Your wife wasn't just socializing with her friends.
> 
> Your wife was #1 lying to you
> 
> Your wife was dressing up in f-me heels especially to pickup men in a dance club
> 
> (Btw, as she ever, and I mean ever dressed like that for a night with you? - says a lot doesn't it?)
> 
> And then there is the level of reaction and protest. Notice how long she's carrying this, and how far. Her very marriage is in fact on the line here and she's not at all worried. She is instead acting *****y and petulant. That's how a teenager acts when told she can't see her bf.
> 
> Be very careful because the other thing teenagers do is to lie and find a way to do it anyway.
> 
> So be checking up on her big time. *Be on the watch for contrived situations.* I certainly hope you don't have any trips where you will be away planned.
> 
> And keep making plans to go out and have fun with her. Have her continue to refuse, don't ask her in a passive way, instead straight forward like a leader. State you and her need to get out and go do X. When she refuses you can either go yourself, or you can call her out. Look her in the eye and calmly say, "so you are refusing to go out with your husband? we both know you'd be strapping on you f-me heels and shorter skirt to run to a meat market with your wing woman if given the chance. Come on honey, are you in this marriage and with me, or is your priority to be single?"


All I can say Logan is don't bend on what you will and will not tolerate. 

I've been following this for a while now and It's good to see you have finally taken a stand.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

azteca1986 said:


> This has always been the key part of their exchange. She's currently acting like a moody teenager, not because Logan said she couldn't go clubbing. He wanted to come along too. His mere presence was enough to stop her wanting to go clubbing altogether.
> 
> In your shoes Logan, I would like to know why.


OTHER MEN, that's why.

Glances, talking, flirting, dancing.

Maybe all of the above.

Eventually, texting, then maybe sneaking out to his car in the parking lot to "talk" in private, then...

Even if she hasn't done any of the above, she full well knows that it's all part and parcel during GNO.

Maybe not this week, or next month, but eventually...

And you can't do any of this if you show up with your hubby in tow.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Logan 3 said:


> This is why I feel stuck. W's activities aren't exactly hurting anyone, and they do have positive aspects. So why do they give me negative feelings? Maybe W going dancing with a friend wasn't the worst thing ever... Maybe letting my friend follow them in his car was out of line? All I know is I'm doing the best I can to hold onto my M.
> 
> It's understandable that W isn't in good spirits, since we've totally upended her social routine. She didn't want to do any of the activities I suggested this weekend. She just stayed home - sleeping, reading, working on her laptop. Obviously she’s pouting, but I'm trying to deal with it in an MMSL way. I'm not apologizing, getting mad, seeking approval, or rewarding bad behavior. I'm keeping an even keel, staying active, and treating her respectfully whenever she chooses to be in a good mood.
> 
> One of the problems I can't fix by treating W in a detached way, however, involves her relationship with our kids. Two examples already cropped up this week. The first happened when my son and his friend spent Saturday night playing video games at home. By Saturday, W was starting to feel really insulted about not being "allowed" to see her friends...
> 
> According to my son, she walked through the den on her way to the kitchen, tripping over some cables they'd left on the floor. W sarcastically said: "Like it would be the worst thing if anyone ever got out of the house around here." After she left, my son's friend mentioned to him: "I never knew your Mom was so b****y." A big reality check, since W used to be the queen of birthday parties and sleepovers for our kids' circle of friends.
> 
> The second example happened when W and our daughter went shopping. According to my daughter, they were walking through the mall when a guy in baggy clothes made a joke, passing the other way. He pointed to a store and said: "Hit that 2-for-1 sale ladies, since you're like sisters and like sharing clothes and sh**". My daughter said he was overly loud and sketchy. Her natural response was to ignore the comment and keep walking. W, on the other hand, sarcastically told him: "Better get your eyes checked, buddy"...
> 
> My daughter started walking even faster, trying to show W the best way of dealing with creeps at the mall. When she turned around, however, W was still in the same place, impatiently listening to the creep. W finally noticed her waiting up ahead and walked forward. W rolled her eyes, as if to say: "Could you believe that guy?"
> 
> Mr. Baggy Pants just stood there, openly checking W out from behind. My daughter found it odd that W seemed so upset about being accosted, but then walked away slowly. W acted like they were both equally annoyed by the guy's behavior. My daughter didn't explain that the more surprising part was actually W's reaction. They never discussed it again.
> 
> At the end of the day, W appears to be complying with the terms we agreed to on Tuesday, and I am able to curb some of her "sulking" behavior by taking a firm, detached approach. Part of her stress could be getting displaced onto the kids, though, which would be unfair as well as difficult for me to manage. I'm taking it one day at a time, and we'll just have to see what this week has in store. Thanks as always for the support.
> 
> Logan


Your children find her behavior odd, while you find some things positive? I'm sorry, but this is going to end badly for you at this rate. Get yourself some IC and work through your codependency issues. You aren't curbing anything, she is going to have a huge tantrum soon that you can't handle. You see, I'm not the only one that finds her behavior similar to a teenager.


----------



## x-ray

Logan 3 said:


> She told me: "They said you would act this way. You don't want me to have any life outside this safe, boring routine."


Logan, When is the first time you expressed any problem with her GNO's? As far as I can remember throughout this thread, you have only been supportive, up until now.

I'd be very interested to know how long they have been saying that!

I will warn you that the favourite game of attention-wh0res is to cuckold other women's husbands and boyfriends. And they will actively try to put her into that situation.

What you need to know is how receptive she may be to the attention she will no doubt receive while around these women.

I personally would be worried about this reaction below:




Logan 3 said:


> The second example happened when W and our daughter went shopping. According to my daughter, they were walking through the mall when a guy in baggy clothes made a joke, passing the other way. He pointed to a store and said: "Hit that 2-for-1 sale ladies, since you're like sisters and like sharing clothes and sh**". My daughter said he was overly loud and sketchy. Her natural response was to ignore the comment and keep walking. W, on the other hand, sarcastically told him: "Better get your eyes checked, buddy"...
> 
> My daughter started walking even faster, trying to show W the best way of dealing with creeps at the mall. When she turned around, however, W was still in the same place, impatiently listening to the creep. W finally noticed her waiting up ahead and walked forward. W rolled her eyes, as if to say: "Could you believe that guy?"
> 
> Mr. Baggy Pants just stood there, openly checking W out from behind. My daughter found it odd that W seemed so upset about being accosted, but then walked away slowly. W acted like they were both equally annoyed by the guy's behavior. My daughter didn't explain that the more surprising part was actually W's reaction. They never discussed it again.


I'd also be wary of the fact she was sober on that occasion. So you'd have to factor that into your assessment of how receptive she's likely to be. 

There's every chance you wife is just in it for the attention at the moment. I'm sure after her job problems and her subsequent transformation, she feels a new zest for life. 

But it seems she has gotten in with the wrong crowd somehow.


----------



## Chaparral

I would like to see her response to marriage counseling.

Have you asked her what she misses at the clubs she can't do with you ? Have you told her how bad this all looks?

If I remember correctly, she has become a different person to you and the kids since she started the GNOs. Have you told her, in effect, she is wearing out her welcome? Have you told her how shady she is acting? Have you asked her who "they" are and what else "they" have they said? Have you asked are they men or women? Have you let her know you can no longer trust her since she has been lying about things all along?

Have you had a long serious convo about all this or just trading passing remarks?

Do you know any of these people?

I agree with another poster, she is getting ready to blow if you do not fall for her pouty, put upon act. When she does be prepared, I would grab a bag, start stuffing her clothes in it, and tell her to go live with her bar fly , club hoe girlfriends and one night stands. And tell her to take her f*ck me pumps with her.

If she has a smart phone, you need to retrieve the deleted texts. You need to VAR her convos. You are in a battle to save your and your children's family, and you are coming up wanting. YOU ARE THE HEAD OF THE HOUSEHOLD. Quit shirking your duty as a husband and a father, especially over some ludicrous, fake progressive notion of privacy. When you have to explain to your kids, no, I did not do everything I could, how are you going to rationalize it then?

NOTHING, is more toxic to a relationship than Girls Night Out. 

The phrase "fiddling while Rome burns" comes to mind, grab a water hose.


----------



## weightlifter

I still think if another GNO is found out ahead he NEEDS TO GET A FEMALE PI and find out just what he is dealing with. Even if he gives her instructions to c0ckblock when they arrive at the car or hotel by banging on the window/door.


----------



## Iver

> One place she mentioned is a local restaurant, with a nice lounge / bar section inside. I doubt they'd go to anywhere more intense, since the point is to meet up, talk and relax.


Logan, 

I reread some of your earlier comments...the quote above is you.

It turns out "the point" was to go hit a dance club with a line in front & bouncers at the door. That is also the reason she's been coming home smelling like cigarette smoke - it's not been her first outing there.

Let me spell it out for you.

She's been out dancing with guys in their twenties and maybeeee...thirties. If you think any of them would hesitate for a second to hit on a nice looking 44 year old woman I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

I'm bringing this up again because you keep avoiding getting to the bottom of all this. 

Get on top of her texting & emailing and FIND OUT WHAT IS GOING ON HERE.

I posted your earlier comment for a reason. You had *no idea *she was out doing what she was doing. 

Please take a minute and think about that.


----------



## nothingtodeclare

*Re: Re: When is Jealousy Normal... When is 'Change' Too Much?*



Iver said:


> Logan,
> 
> I reread some of your earlier comments...the quote above is you.
> 
> It turns out "the point" was to go hit a dance club with a line in front & bouncers at the door. That is also the reason she's been coming home smelling like cigarette smoke - it's not been her first outing there.
> 
> Let me spell it out for you.
> 
> She's been out dancing with guys in their twenties and maybeeee...thirties. If you think any of them would hesitate for a second to hit on a nice looking 44 year old woman I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.
> 
> I'm bringing this up again because you keep avoiding getting to the bottom of all this.
> 
> Get on top of her texting & emailing and FIND OUT WHAT IS GOING ON HERE.
> 
> I posted your earlier comment for a reason. You had *no idea *she was out doing what she was doing.
> 
> Please take a minute and think about that.


I think he gets this now and that's why he had her followed and squished the GNOs. I agree that her phone needs to be dealt with. You already VARed her and had her followed. Just do the phone for a few weeks to be solid so you can capture any activity. You have made so much progress, just take an extra step to verify for awhile.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

nothingtodeclare said:


> I think he gets this now and that's why he had her followed and squished the GNOs. I agree that her phone needs to be dealt with. You already VARed her and had her followed. Just do the phone for a few weeks to be solid so you can capture any activity. You have made so much progress, just take an extra step to verify for awhile.


Yes, exactly.

You may never know what she has done during past GNO's, but you need to know what she's doing, or planning on doing, now.

Don't let another important opportunity slip through your hands.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Monitor and find a reason to get her a poly.

You can't live like this with your head in the sand, while is is wanting to show of her bikini body on the beach.


----------



## Logan 3

Hi All,

W let me know it's her friend's birthday next week. She wanted "permission" to join them for dinner. Based on your advice, I said no. I don't want to create the opportunity for W to have another night on the town...

Of course, this leaves me open to looking like a crazy control freak. I can just picture W's friends' reactions when they find out she isn't allowed to eat dinner at a restaurant on somebody's birthday. The only alternative would have been saying "hey, you can go if I'm invited too", but we've already seen how that turns out.

I assume nobody thinks I did the wrong thing by vetoing this dinner? It sounded exactly like the kind of contrived situation people warned me about. I expect W's sulking behavior will temporarily get worse. My plan is to stay calm and not react emotionally to her pouting. I'm still not sure how to address the tension with our kids, now that everybody's home more often... 

Logan


----------



## The Middleman

Logan 3 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> W let me know it's her friend's birthday next week. She wanted "permission" to join them for dinner. Based on your advice, I said no. I don't want to create the opportunity for W to have another night on the town...
> 
> Of course, this leaves me open to looking like a crazy control freak.
> 
> Logan


Over all, you are doing the right thing. I might have been OK with dinner only and home at a reasonable hour (say 9 or 10), but that would be it. I understand and agree with you drawing a line in the sand regarding her going out and it's right under the circumstances. You are to be applauded.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan 3 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> W let me know it's her friend's birthday next week. She wanted "permission" to join them for dinner. Based on your advice, I said no. I don't want to create the opportunity for W to have another night on the town...
> 
> Of course, this leaves me open to looking like a crazy control freak. I can just picture W's friends' reactions when they find out she isn't allowed to eat dinner at a restaurant on somebody's birthday. The only alternative would have been saying "hey, you can go if I'm invited too", but we've already seen how that turns out.
> 
> I assume nobody thinks I did the wrong thing by vetoing this dinner? *It sounded exactly like the kind of contrived situation people warned me about. * I expect W's sulking behavior will temporarily get worse. My plan is to stay calm and not react emotionally to her pouting. I'm still not sure how to address the tension with our kids, now that everybody's home more often...
> 
> Logan


If so, then letting her go after telling her it had better be DINNER WITH HER FEMALE FIENDS(and their SO's). NO SNEAKING OFF TO DANCE CLUBS, OR ANYWHERE ELSE.

Then have her followed.

Could be your best chance to find out if she's still willing to sneak around behind your back...


----------



## Robsia

Do you have iPhones? If so, you can install Find My Friends, then you know where she is.

Other phones might have something similar - I don't know.

If it is just dinner with friends, and no clubs, then she should be allowed to go, but I can see why you would be worried it would lead to something else.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Logan 3 said:


> Of course, this leaves me open to looking like a crazy control freak.


Sure it does, but your marriage is in trouble. The only people who think this way don't rate. Any rational mutual friend, couple or *LEGIT* GNO friend would say "He's right." Oh and I disagree 100% with Robsia* if *it is the GNO crew who said "see we told you."

Good job.







Before the derail starts I said "IF." Last time I said "if", it caused a huge derail. Otherwise, I agree with her.


----------



## Cubby

When my wife celebrates birthdays with her friends, it's almost always lunch. It seems like everyone's too busy with family to make a night of it. And if it happens to be a nighttime thing, then spouses are usually invited.

I'm not sure what my point is....it just seems like this is another attempt to hit the dance floor. With this latest request and the pouting, she sure must have been having fun out there at the meatmarket.


----------



## Row Jimmy

Logan

I think boundaries are good in a relationship, but vetoing a B-day dinner with her friend??? What are you her Jailer????

If it was me and if I wasn't previously caught cheating or caught doing anything "wrong" other than going out dancing which really isn't anything wrong (but of course people on TAM for any length of time knows the danger of what can happen on these GNO's) then my "pouting" would be me thinking about how soon I would be divorcing my over controlling husband who I don't like the least bit anymore and who I wont' be having sex with while he's acting like as over controlling azz-holio. 

The compromise position in this instance is dinner with her friends and she comes home at 10pm or whatever a reasonable hour is to you two.


----------



## BrockLanders

Logan 3 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> W let me know it's her friend's birthday next week. She wanted "permission" to join them for dinner. Based on your advice, I said no. I don't want to create the opportunity for W to have another night on the town...
> 
> Of course, this leaves me open to looking like a crazy control freak. I can just picture W's friends' reactions when they find out she isn't allowed to eat dinner at a restaurant on somebody's birthday. The only alternative would have been saying "hey, you can go if I'm invited too", but we've already seen how that turns out.
> 
> I assume nobody thinks I did the wrong thing by vetoing this dinner? It sounded exactly like the kind of contrived situation people warned me about. I expect W's sulking behavior will temporarily get worse. My plan is to stay calm and not react emotionally to her pouting. I'm still not sure how to address the tension with our kids, now that everybody's home more often...
> 
> Logan


Sorry but this is controlling. She should be able to have dinner with friends. You can't give punishments to another adult. If you suspect she will be doing something other than dinner than investigate and confront, but right now you're playing into the hands of her friends who are accusing you of being controlling.


----------



## badmemory

Logan, you did the right thing.

Keep in mind that once a WS get's an inch they'll take a mile. You've reinforced your boundaries and that will hold you in good stead the next time she thinks about this.

WS's are deceitful by nature. They'll lie or embellish the reason for the GNO's to try to make you feel guilty about your refusal to agree. It's always a "friend's birthday", a "retirement celebration",
"work related celebration", etc. There's a million GNO excuses and I've heard them all. 

I'm not saying your wife is lying, but if it's a legitimate occasion, you should be going with her or she shouldn't go. IMHO.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

BrockLanders said:


> You can't give punishments to another adult.


 Whether it is through the courts, the law or spouses adults are punished all of the time. Whether she chooses to accept the new boundary or punishment is another discussion. He shouldn't have to chase her around. The marriage is in trouble and you want to go out for a birthday celebration?


----------



## sandc

You've got her either way on the birthday thing.

"Are the other ladies' spouses coming? No? Then I don't want you to go as I believe you'll go back to that dance club and those are the kinds of things I would like to do with you."

"Are the other ladies' spouses coming? Yes? Then shouldn't I be there as well? If not why not?"

This way she doesn't have much wiggle room on the birthday thing.

Or as already suggested let her go and then follow her. But what are the consequences for her lying to you if you do this? What are her consequences for lying to you as it stands? You don't know the depth of the lies so there's no way to know if merely preventing her from engaging in questionable behavior is consequence enough. I know you love her but love is not one-sided. She needs to love you back and right now, she isn't.


----------



## Cubby

All this talk about Logan being controlling. Well, let's see...Logan has said he'd love to go out with his wife. Wife says she doesn't want him along. Looks to me like wife is trying to control Logan into staying at home while she goes out.


----------



## BrockLanders

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Whether it is through the courts, the law or spouses adults are punished all of the time. Whether she chooses to accept the new boundary or punishment is another discussion. He shouldn't have to chase her around. The marriage is in trouble and you want to go out for a birthday celebration?


He has zero proof of infidelity and she admitted to going dancing. Why would you punish absolutely legitimate reasons to go out with friends? If he thinks she's lying he should get his buddy to tail her again. Then he can serve her walking papers.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Cubby said:


> All this talk about Logan being controlling. Well, let's see...Logan has said he'd love to go out with his wife. Wife says she doesn't want him along. Looks to me like wife is trying to control Logan into staying at home while she goes out.


It's funny how controlling finances is okay, but controlling EXCESSIVE GNOs makes someone a jailer. The more I think about it, the less I agree with my previous post.


BrockLanders said:


> He has zero proof of infidelity and she admitted to going dancing. Why would you punish absolutely legitimate reasons to go out with friends? If he thinks she's lying he should get his buddy to tail her again. Then he can serve her walking papers.


He has proof she lies about where she goes.

She doesn't want to do ANYTHING with her husband, but wants to party with friends? Yep, I have a HUGE problem with that. We will just disagree on this point.

You want to go to a birthday with friends, but have no desire to do anything with me? [email protected]# no you can't go.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan,

Is the friend that's having the birthday dinner the same friend that she's been sneaking to the dance club with? If so, is she married/have SO? If so, I wonder what her husband/boyfriend thinks about her going to dance clubs?...

I say, let her go with the clear understanding that she's going to the dinner party, then coming home from there. If she sneaks off to ANYWHERE else and you find out, it's "over". You'll file for D.

My guess is she wouldn't take the chance so early after you caught /confronted her about sneaking around. There will probably be some bad mouthing about you there and that's all.

I think that she's(with her friend) already testing the waters to see how serious you are about tightening her boundaries. It's a birthday dinner this time. Next time it'll be something else that's seemingly non-threatening.

If you keep saying no to everything, she will probably try to go completely underground with this.


----------



## Tron

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You want to go to a birthday with friends, but have no desire to do anything with me? [email protected]# no you can't go.


That sums it up right there!


----------



## BrockLanders

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Logan,
> 
> Is the friend that's having the birthday dinner the same friend that she's been sneaking to the dance club with? If so, is she married/have SO? If so, I wonder what her boyfriend thinks about her going to dance clubs?...
> 
> I say, let her go with the clear understanding that she's going to the dinner party, then coming home from there. If she sneaks off to ANYWHERE else and you find out, it's "over". You'll file for D.
> 
> My guess is she wouldn't take the chance so early after you caught /confronted her about sneaking around. There will probably be some bad mouthing about you there and that's all.
> 
> I think that she's(with her friend) already testing the waters to see how serious you are about tightening her boundaries. It's a birthday dinner this time. Next time it'll be something else that's seemingly non-threatening.
> 
> If you keep saying no to everything, she will probably try to go completely underground with this.


I agree with this. If you can't trust a wife to go to a completely innocuous dinner to celebrate a birthday, there's not much sense in staying married.


----------



## nothingtodeclare

I would not have a problem with the dinner if she was home early. The problem is that you still don't know what's going on. Get on that phone.


----------



## tom67

nothingtodeclare said:


> I would not have a problem with the dinner if she was home early. The problem is that you still don't know what's going on. Get on that phone.


At the very least she has toxic friends who are NOT friends of the marriage. Exactly what else is going on that's something Logan has to find out.


----------



## The Middleman

BrockLanders said:


> Sorry but this is controlling. She should be able to have dinner with friends. You can't give punishments to another adult. If you suspect she will be doing something other than dinner than investigate and confront, but right now you're playing into the hands of her friends who are accusing you of being controlling.


I'm going to disagree (a little) with you. What you are calling a punishment is actually the re-establishment of acceptable boundaries with in a marriage. It is not acceptable, IMO, for either a man or a woman to go out all night long, into the wee hours, dancing and drinking without their spouse. IT'S WRONG BY ANY MEASURE. Logan is just re-establishing normal healthy boundaries and he wife doesn't like it. If this makes her want to divorce, then Logan is better off without her. If Logan allows the GNOs to continue the way they have been, his wife would eventually wind up sleeping with another guy; we can take that to the bank. 

Logan is correct in what he is doing. If this were my wife, I might have agreed to the dinner as long as she was home by a reasonable hour like 10:00PM. If she decided to go out clubbing, against our agreement, I would either:


 Go out and drag her home, or
Change the locks.


----------



## BrockLanders

The Middleman said:


> I'm going to disagree (a little) with you. What you are calling a punishment is actually the re-establishment of acceptable boundaries with in a marriage. It is not acceptable, IMO, for either a man or a woman to go out all night long, into the wee hours, dancing and drinking without their spouse. IT'S WRONG BY ANY MEASURE. Logan is just re-establishing normal healthy boundaries and he wife doesn't like it. If this makes her want to divorce, then Logan is better off without her. If Logan allows the GNOs to continue the way they have been, his wife would eventually wind up sleeping with another guy; we can take that to the bank.
> 
> Logan is correct in what he is doing. If this were my wife, I might have agreed to the dinner as long as she was home by a reasonable hour like 10:00PM. If she decided to go out clubbing, against our agreement, I would either:
> 
> 
> Go out and drag her home, or
> Change the locks.


What I meant was it seems like he's punishing her by not letting her go out for a birthday dinner. I agree 100% about going out to meat markets, no matter what the time of night.


----------



## badmemory

BrockLanders said:


> He has zero proof of infidelity and she admitted to going dancing. Why would you punish absolutely legitimate reasons to go out with friends? If he thinks she's lying he should get his buddy to tail her again. Then he can serve her walking papers.


I had zero proof of infidelity too when I acquiesced to all the GNO's that my wife used to go on. In fact, those lack of boundaries enabled the behavior that led to her A. 

Now, I've educated myself enough to know that reasonable boundaries in a marriage is not being controlling.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

BrockLanders said:


> What I meant was it seems like he's punishing her by not letting her go out for a birthday dinner..


Okay, I can see what you are saying. Here's how I see it. 

We just had a huge fight about boundaries and going out. You say no to going out with me. I say no to you and your friends.

If it is punishment, it is equally dual punishment. She punished him for saying not as many GNOs. He punished her by giving her a taste of the same punishment. 

Is it healthy? Nope.


Vindictive?
Revenge?
Right? 
Wrong?

I do not know.


----------



## BrockLanders

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Okay, I can see what you are saying. Here's how I see it.
> 
> We just had a huge fight about boundaries and going out. You say no to going out with me. I say no to you and your friends.
> 
> If it is punishment, it is equally dual punishment. She punished him for saying not as many GNOs. He punished her by giving her a taste of the same punishment.
> 
> Is it healthy? Nope.
> 
> 
> Vindictive?
> Revenge?
> Right?
> Wrong?
> 
> I do not know.


What's interesting is the lack of response from the wife, almost as if she realizes that given her actions it's not unreasonable to distrust her. That to me speaks volumes.


----------



## x-ray

*Re: Re: When is Jealousy Normal... When is 'Change' Too Much?*



GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Logan,
> 
> Is the friend that's having the birthday dinner the same friend that she's been sneaking to the dance club with? If so, is she married/have SO? If so, I wonder what her husband/boyfriend thinks about her going to dance clubs?...
> 
> I say, let her go with the clear understanding that she's going to the dinner party, then coming home from there. If she sneaks off to ANYWHERE else and you find out, it's "over". You'll file for D.
> 
> My guess is she wouldn't take the chance so early after you caught /confronted her about sneaking around. There will probably be some bad mouthing about you there and that's all.
> 
> I think that she's(with her friend) already testing the waters to see how serious you are about tightening her boundaries. It's a birthday dinner this time. Next time it'll be something else that's seemingly non-threatening.
> 
> If you keep saying no to everything, she will probably try to go completely underground with this.


I agree.

I think she and her friends are probing the defences. As Groundpounder says, they won't risk much yet and are probably just going to a restaurant.

There may not be any actual birthday though.


----------



## BrockLanders

x-ray said:


> I agree.
> 
> I think she and her friends are probing the defences. As Groundpounder says, they won't risk much yet and are probably just going to a restaurant.
> 
> There may not be any actual birthday though.


It's pretty easy to look up someone's number on the web. He should absolutely verify this.


----------



## Chaparral

Not enough info.

But, have you made it clear to your wife that her marriage/family is hanging by a thread and she is swinging at that thread with an ax?

Have you talked to her about the what else "they" think?

Have you put a var in the house and car to see what is really going on? Courage can save a situation that timidity can let get out of hand.


----------



## Shaggy

Logan, 

I don't think you've handled the bday party the right way, I mean your goal here isn't to put her in a prison where she can't ever see her friends.

But it us about establishing boundaries which means NO going out and acting single - no clubbing without you, no martini bars, bars etc which are pickup spots for singles without you along.

You being along isn't because you are her guard, you are along because you are her husband and including you let's the two of you enjoy the social setting together. Socially.

I would have instead said to the bparty - great, when are we supposed to be there, basically invite yourself along. Let her be the one to say you can't attend, then have it out about why you aren't invited. Point out that there will be other men there - either as guests or ones they pick up when out, because obviously these girls are about partying and meeting people when out. This then loops back to the argument about acting single.

See its never ever about controlling, it's entirely about her not having a life as a single woman out on the town leaving you at home.


----------



## Iver

Shaggy said:


> Logan,
> 
> I don't think you've handled the bday party the right way, I mean your goal here isn't to put her in a prison where she can't ever see her friends.
> 
> But it us about establishing boundaries which means NO going out and acting single - no clubbing without you, no martini bars, bars etc which are pickup spots for singles without you along.
> 
> You being along isn't because you are her guard, you are along because you are her husband and including you let's the two of you enjoy the social setting together. Socially.
> 
> I would have instead said to the bparty - great, when are we supposed to be there, basically invite yourself along. Let her be the one to say you can't attend, then have it out about why you aren't invited. Point out that there will be other men there - either as guests or ones they pick up when out, because obviously these girls are about partying and meeting people when out. This then loops back to the argument about acting single.
> 
> See its never ever about controlling, it's entirely about her not having a life as a single woman out on the town leaving you at home.



I agree 100% on this - I'd add just one thing - ask W if she understands why you are angry over her behavior. Her answer will be very telling as to her mind set.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## See_Listen_Love

The Middleman said:


> Over all, you are doing the right thing. I might have been OK with dinner only and home at a reasonable hour (say 9 or 10), but that would be it. I understand and agree with you drawing a line in the sand regarding her going out and it's right under the circumstances. You are to be applauded.


Maybe this, you can't keep her from 'normal' social activities, and you have to set strict boundaries, but this should be OK I think.


----------



## BobSimmons

This is a train wreck. It's a wrestling match with two people trying to get the upper hand on each other but not really resolving anything.
What I actually fear is OP instead of seemingly establishing control of the situation may actually be doing the opposite, driving her away/to cheat. Why?

This seems like something that first started out as a small fissure...wife changing new interests etc, and now those fissures are becoming large cracks. 

Let's be fair, she's been sneaking around being naughty, but to me it seems like she's doing the typical teenager stuff, going somewhere, changing clothes then going to a club. Yes being dishonest a huge no no. But like I said, this seems like sparring. Husband uncomfortable with changing wife, wife wanting to do stuff, gradually becoming resentful then doing it anyway.

Unless OP and wife sit down and talk honestly and openly about everything because I dont believe this to be a boundary issue at all. She knows she doing wrong, she knows where she's going with her friends and not wanting her husband to come is a wrong and should be sending off huge red flags.

Husband enforcing bans, saying no to birthday dinners and keeping her in the house will only embolden her and widen those cracks into actions on her part that may be irreparable to repair.


----------



## warlock07

OP,you are giving off bad vibes.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

BobSimmons said:


> This is a train wreck. It's a wrestling match with two people trying to get the upper hand on each other but not really resolving anything.
> What I actually fear is OP instead of seemingly establishing control of the situation may actually be doing the opposite, driving her away/to cheat. Why?
> 
> This seems like something that first started out as a small fissure...wife changing new interests etc, and now those fissures are becoming large cracks.
> 
> *Let's be fair, she's been sneaking around being naughty, but to me it seems like she's doing the typical teenager stuff, going somewhere, changing clothes then going to a club.* Yes being dishonest a huge no no. But like I said, this seems like sparring. Husband uncomfortable with changing wife, wife wanting to do stuff, gradually becoming resentful then doing it anyway.
> 
> Unless OP and wife sit down and talk honestly and openly about everything because I dont believe this to be a boundary issue at all. She knows she doing wrong, she knows where she's going with her friends and not wanting her husband to come is a wrong and should be sending off huge red flags.
> 
> Husband enforcing bans, saying no to birthday dinners and keeping her in the house will only embolden her and widen those cracks into actions on her part that may be irreparable to repair.


He doesn't really know exactly what she's been doing during GNO. He may never know, or not know until it's too late.

Seeing that last night and tonight are the two prime GNO nights. I can only imagine the verbal sparring that's going on between them right now. The little mind games. The snippy comments to and in front of the kids and Logan.

If all else remains the same, it's only a matter of time on this one. The clock ticks, the fuse shortens, we all wait for the inevitable...


----------



## weightlifter

Still think he should have hired a female pi to find out how deep that rabbit hole was. Even if he gave orders to c0ckblok at a car or hotel.


----------



## Logan 3

Shaggy said:


> Logan, I don't think you've handled the bday party the right way, I mean your goal here isn't to put her in a prison where she can't ever see her friends.





BobSimmons said:


> What I actually fear is OP instead of seemingly establishing control of the situation may actually be doing the opposite, driving her away/to cheat.





BrockLanders said:


> Sorry but this is controlling. She should be able to have dinner with friends. You can't give punishments to another adult.


Thanks for the input, even if it's critical. You can see what you make of this...

Since having our birthday talk, I've done a good job handling W's pouting by staying logical and firm. I took Sandc's advice of planning some fun activities with the kids, giving W the opportunity to participate or not... no pressure. She hasn't come along yet, but I've taken this in stride without getting too mad. If another "birthday event" comes up, I'll give her the Middleman's home-by-10-o'clock option. In the meantime, W has honored our agreement by not going on any more nights out. She's been pretty distant, and we haven't slept together lately, but I'm making sure not to respond to this by acting needy or desperate myself.

The latest development happened this morning. It struck me as a curve ball. Our breakfast routine has become much looser since the kids got older. We still frequently eat together on Sunday mornings, but mainly out of habit. There's no obligation. Today, my son, daughter and I ended up making pancakes. As we cooked and joked around in the kitchen, somebody called out for W. She was either sleeping or occupied upstairs. On a normal day, W would pitch in too, helping make breakfast in her robe and slippers. We took a long time setting the table and waited a while for her, but it became clear W wasn't joining us. 10 minutes after we started eating, though, she magically appeared.

W was already wearing her workout gear, evidently in a rush to hit the gym. Besides the contrast to the rest of us in our PJs, W's clothes stood out as extra flashy today, even by Lululemon standards. The pants and top blatantly showed off how firm she's become in the rear, and how curvy in front. W just bounced through the kitchen, grabbed a bottle of water, and bounced out again. Her body language suggested that she was off to have an upbeat morning, even as the quip she made to us sounded overly negative: "Oh god, how much bacon is that?"

If sauntering across the room in workout tights weren't strange enough, consider that our daughter is also a teenager who struggles with weight issues. After W left, we didn't want to make the situation worse by focusing all our attention on her. We tried talking about the topics we'd been discussing before, but the conversation eventually fell flat.

Assuming W's appearance at breakfast wasn't a complete accident, I don't see what the purpose of her actions would be? I can understand "going underground", when a spouse does everything possible to hide the questionable behavior they're engaged in. But this seemed like the opposite. What's the point of W drawing attention to her flashy wardrobe, especially in front of our kids?



warlock07 said:


> OP,you are giving off bad vibes.


I'm curious how it could be a case of me "giving off bad vibes" or doing the wrong thing. If you honestly think so, please let me know how I'm overreacting to this situation. In my opinion, I'm the only one acting normally.

Logan


----------



## CEL

Logan what do you want? I am going to assume you want a good relationship with your spouse. If you do then YOU need to integrate into HER life. You are making activities for her to do with the family all her actions SHOW she wants to do stuff away from that. She loves you and the kids but hey some people want time AWAY. 

Now what does SHE do? Join her in that stuff to start especially if she is going to look hot doing it. You have tempered the GNO's and given her more if what she did NOT want. If a kid wants a cookie and you offer them a whole weat granola bar well what do you expect to happen. She wants to feel young and alive to get a brief reprieve from the family. Like I said look at things she is doing and do them with her. 

1. Exercise with HER

2. Take HER dancing not just dinner or a movie something exciting.

3. Go in a bar crawl where you hit a bunch of clubs you have never gone to before.

4. Every week you should plan a good EXCITING outing. These don't have to be expensive and you can repeat. Maybe checking out live bands or looking at festivals in the area.

5. Her is the deal she is bored and feels like her life is no longer fun. Time to liven it up a little. The problem is you are trying to liven it up in the opposite direction she wants to go.

6 Not sure where you live but I guarantee you gave exciting stuff going in if you need suggestions just ask.


----------



## Brokenshadow

Logan 3 said:


> Thanks for the input, even if it's critical. You can see what you make of this...
> 
> Since having our birthday talk, I've done a good job handling W's pouting by staying logical and firm. I took Sandc's advice of planning some fun activities with the kids, giving W the opportunity to participate or not... no pressure. She hasn't come along yet, but I've taken this in stride without getting too mad. If another "birthday event" comes up, I'll give her the Middleman's home-by-10-o'clock option. In the meantime, W has honored our agreement by not going on any more nights out. She's been pretty distant, and we haven't slept together lately, but I'm making sure not to respond to this by acting needy or desperate myself.
> 
> The latest development happened this morning. It struck me as a curve ball. Our breakfast routine has become much looser since the kids got older. We still frequently eat together on Sunday mornings, but mainly out of habit. There's no obligation. Today, my son, daughter and I ended up making pancakes. As we cooked and joked around in the kitchen, somebody called out for W. She was either sleeping or occupied upstairs. On a normal day, W would pitch in too, helping make breakfast in her robe and slippers. We took a long time setting the table and waited a while for her, but it became clear W wasn't joining us. 10 minutes after we started eating, though, she magically appeared.
> 
> W was already wearing her workout gear, evidently in a rush to hit the gym. Besides the contrast to the rest of us in our PJs, W's clothes stood out as extra flashy today, even by Lululemon standards. The pants and top blatantly showed off how firm she's become in the rear, and how curvy in front. W just bounced through the kitchen, grabbed a bottle of water, and bounced out again. Her body language suggested that she was off to have an upbeat morning, even as the quip she made to us sounded overly negative: "Oh god, how much bacon is that?"
> 
> If sauntering across the room in workout tights weren't strange enough, consider that our daughter is also a teenager who struggles with weight issues. After W left, we didn't want to make the situation worse by focusing all our attention on her. We tried talking about the topics we'd been discussing before, but the conversation eventually fell flat.
> 
> Assuming W's appearance at breakfast wasn't a complete accident, I don't see what the purpose of her actions would be? I can understand "going underground", when a spouse does everything possible to hide the questionable behavior they're engaged in. But this seemed like the opposite. What's the point of W drawing attention to her flashy wardrobe, especially in front of our kids?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious how it could be a case of me "giving off bad vibes" or doing the wrong thing. If you honestly think so, please let me know how I'm overreacting to this situation. In my opinion, I'm the only one acting normally.
> 
> Logan


That's a tough one. Not quite sure what you mean about flashy workout clothes. Many of the females at my gym wear the tights, and a very form fitting top. There is a practical aspect to this, since no one wants to get a sleeve caught in a machine. As for the upbeat nature, I'm usually pumped to be heading out to the gym. Once you get hooked, it's a high point of the day. Plus, if she's feeling better about her body, both these behaviors are typical. If she was heading out to a rendezvous, I'm not sure she would be so flagrant in her actions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Robsia

When I go out running I wear tight-fitting clothes - it cuts down wind resistance and is more comfortable. It's not to be flashy or show off my body. And improving the body is surely the whole point of exercising. maybe she just got sick of lying about like a lump of flab. I know when I lost 85 lb, that was why! Not to go out and cheat, just so I would look better and be healthy.

I will also go through the kitchen to get my bottle of water.

She's right though - pancakes and bacon isn't a particularly healthy breakfast, specially if your daughter struggles with her weight.
Perhaps on this occasion you might be over-reacting a touch. Don't you want her to be healthy?

Your biggest problemn isn't that she wants to look good and be healthy - it's that she doesn't seem to want to spend any time with you.

I love going out dancing, but I'd rather go with my husband. I only go out with my friends on the rare occasions I go out because he doesn't like going out dancing with me.


----------



## BobSimmons

Logan 3 said:


> Thanks for the input, even if it's critical. You can see what you make of this...
> 
> Since having our birthday talk, I've done a good job handling W's pouting by staying logical and firm. I took Sandc's advice of planning some fun activities with the kids, giving W the opportunity to participate or not... no pressure. She hasn't come along yet, but I've taken this in stride without getting too mad. If another "birthday event" comes up, I'll give her the Middleman's home-by-10-o'clock option. In the meantime, W has honored our agreement by not going on any more nights out. She's been pretty distant, and we haven't slept together lately, but I'm making sure not to respond to this by acting needy or desperate myself.
> 
> The latest development happened this morning. It struck me as a curve ball. Our breakfast routine has become much looser since the kids got older. We still frequently eat together on Sunday mornings, but mainly out of habit. There's no obligation. Today, my son, daughter and I ended up making pancakes. As we cooked and joked around in the kitchen, somebody called out for W. She was either sleeping or occupied upstairs. On a normal day, W would pitch in too, helping make breakfast in her robe and slippers. We took a long time setting the table and waited a while for her, but it became clear W wasn't joining us. 10 minutes after we started eating, though, she magically appeared.
> 
> W was already wearing her workout gear, evidently in a rush to hit the gym. Besides the contrast to the rest of us in our PJs, W's clothe*s stood out as extra flashy today, even by Lululemon standards. The pants and top blatantly showed off how firm she's become in the rear, and how curvy in front*. W just bounced through the kitchen, grabbed a bottle of water, and bounced out again. Her body language suggested that she was off to have an upbeat morning, even as the quip she made to us sounded overly negative: "Oh god, how much bacon is that?"
> 
> If sauntering across the room in workout tights weren't strange enough, *consider that our daughter is also a teenager who struggles with weight issues.* After W left, we didn't want to make the situation worse by focusing all our attention on her. We tried talking about the topics we'd been discussing before, but the conversation eventually fell flat.
> 
> Assuming W's appearance at breakfast wasn't a complete accident, I don't see what the purpose of her actions would be? I can understand "going underground", when a spouse does everything possible to hide the questionable behavior they're engaged in. But this seemed like the opposite. *What's the point of W drawing attention to her flashy wardrobe, especially in front of our kids?*
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious how it could be a case of me "giving off bad vibes" or doing the wrong thing. If you honestly think so, please let me know how I'm overreacting to this situation. In my opinion, I'm the only one acting normally.
> 
> Logan


Dude this is sounding so psycho, your wife works out...and your daughter is overweight...trying to marry up the two. Is it your wife's fault she's going to the gym? She works hard on her body, what should she wear to the gym (it's evident you're uncomfortable with it). If your daughter has issues with weight and you're making bacon and such...how is that your wife's fault?

Dude seriously you two need to talk. This is getting silly.

I get the sense of a man, watching his wife change, getting fit, going out enjoying life (rightly or wrongly) and you, still in the same place, doing the same things, kinda sitting there stewing..

Talk to her dammit..if you can't beat them...join her in the gym


----------



## luv2luv

Logan 3 said:


> Thanks for the input, even if it's critical. You can see what you make of this...
> 
> Since having our birthday talk, I've done a good job handling W's pouting by staying logical and firm. I took Sandc's advice of planning some fun activities with the kids, giving W the opportunity to participate or not... no pressure. She hasn't come along yet, but I've taken this in stride without getting too mad. If another "birthday event" comes up, I'll give her the Middleman's home-by-10-o'clock option. In the meantime, W has honored our agreement by not going on any more nights out. She's been pretty distant, and we haven't slept together lately, but I'm making sure not to respond to this by acting needy or desperate myself.
> 
> The latest development happened this morning. It struck me as a curve ball. Our breakfast routine has become much looser since the kids got older. We still frequently eat together on Sunday mornings, but mainly out of habit. There's no obligation. Today, my son, daughter and I ended up making pancakes. As we cooked and joked around in the kitchen, somebody called out for W. She was either sleeping or occupied upstairs. On a normal day, W would pitch in too, helping make breakfast in her robe and slippers. We took a long time setting the table and waited a while for her, but it became clear W wasn't joining us. 10 minutes after we started eating, though, she magically appeared.
> 
> W was already wearing her workout gear, evidently in a rush to hit the gym. Besides the contrast to the rest of us in our PJs, W's clothes stood out as extra flashy today, even by Lululemon standards. The pants and top blatantly showed off how firm she's become in the rear, and how curvy in front. W just bounced through the kitchen, grabbed a bottle of water, and bounced out again. Her body language suggested that she was off to have an upbeat morning, even as the quip she made to us sounded overly negative: "Oh god, how much bacon is that?"
> 
> If sauntering across the room in workout tights weren't strange enough, consider that our daughter is also a teenager who struggles with weight issues. After W left, we didn't want to make the situation worse by focusing all our attention on her. We tried talking about the topics we'd been discussing before, but the conversation eventually fell flat.
> 
> Assuming W's appearance at breakfast wasn't a complete accident, I don't see what the purpose of her actions would be? I can understand "going underground", when a spouse does everything possible to hide the questionable behavior they're engaged in. But this seemed like the opposite. What's the point of W drawing attention to her flashy wardrobe, especially in front of our kids?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious how it could be a case of me "giving off bad vibes" or doing the wrong thing. If you honestly think so, please let me know how I'm overreacting to this situation. In my opinion, I'm the only one acting normally.
> 
> Logan


I think this post is absolutely ludicrous. Logan I have been following hour thread since the beginning while I disagree with people on this forum that women hanging out together is the source of all evil but I would understand why you were nervous. However this little bout of extreme thoughts is not understandable. Since when is working out something to fear? Your wife works out and looks good, so you think that is a bad thing. I mean she works out and looks good, so that is bad. Your daughter has a weight problem so your wife should as well? Do you think maybe if your daughter saw her mom being healthy she might want to be as well? And do you think your wife is walking around trying to make her kids and husband jealous of how good she looks? There was no rational basis for being upset with her in this instance, sometimes people
Workout for themselves without trying to make their spouse and kids jealous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## The Middleman

Logan 3 said:


> Assuming W's appearance at breakfast wasn't a complete accident, I don't see what the purpose of her actions would be? I can understand "going underground", when a spouse does everything possible to hide the questionable behavior they're engaged in. But this seemed like the opposite. What's the point of W drawing attention to her flashy wardrobe, especially in front of our kids?


Logan,

I'm sure you know that I think you've done the right think here by standing up to your wife's behavior and refusing to be a doormat. However, while she is not going out clubbing for now and she is respecting your wishes, this thing is far from over. I think you have a long, hard road ahead. Something is seriously wrong with your wife and the marriage and her attitude is screaming it out loud. The one thing jumps out at me is that she seems to be detaching herself from both you and the children. I am getting the feeling that she thinks she has out grown being a wife and mother and this is dangerous territory for your marriage. You have stopped her clubbing (at least for now) so now it seems she is going to the gym for external "validation". I do hope I'm wrong about this, but your last post painted an ugly picture.

I'm going to echo what some others here have said. You need to find a way to get her back into you and the family otherwise she is going to continue to distance herself until she serves you with divorce papers. Try going to the gym with her; do you think you'll get a positive reaction to that? Another thing to do is to suggest counseling, with a marriage friendly counselor. You've done great so far, I'd hate to see things fall apart by not following up on not re-attaching.



Logan 3 said:


> I'm curious how it could be a case of me "giving off bad vibes" or doing the wrong thing. If you honestly think so, please let me know how I'm overreacting to this situation. In my opinion, I'm the only one acting normally.


You have not done anything wrong nor did you go overboard. Your wife's reaction to everything is what is giving off the bad vibes. You just need to start communicating more with her.


----------



## Iver

Your daughter has a weight problem and your feeding her pancakes??? Why not just give her doughnuts?
You have not read any of the glycemic index based diets like The Zone or South Beach it seems. The Paleo Diet is one that worked quickly for me as well.

I really think you need to get serious here and catch up with W before its too late from a fitness point.

Have the two of you had an honest adult conversation about what is up with your lives yet? Better get that in gear before she starts attorney shopping..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan 3 said:


> W was already wearing her workout gear, *evidently in a rush to hit the gym*. Besides the contrast to the rest of us in our PJs, W's clothes stood out as extra flashy today, even by Lululemon standards. The pants and top blatantly showed off how firm she's become in the rear, and how curvy in front. *W just bounced through the kitchen, grabbed a bottle of water, and bounced out again.* Her body language suggested that she was off to have an upbeat morning, even as the quip she made to us sounded overly negative: "Oh god, how much bacon is that?"Logan


Well the important thing isn't where she goes, it's whom she doesn't go with... That'd be you.

Either you are really naive, or you just don't care. She has been moving away from you for what, months, or a year now. And you spend more effort talking about pancakes than your wife blowing off you AND your kids off for breakfast...


Is anyone else starting to get that "feeling" about this thread also...:scratchhead:


----------



## Brokenshadow

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Well the important thing isn't where she goes, it's whom she doesn't go with... That'd be you.
> 
> Either you are really naive, or you just don't care. She has been moving away from you for what, months, or a year now. And you spend more effort talking about pancakes than your wife blowing off you AND your kids off for breakfast...
> 
> 
> Is anyone else starting to get that "feeling" about this thread also...:scratchhead:


I'm from a broken home, so the family making pancakes together doesn't pass the smell test for me, but hey, who knows...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

How long was she at the "gym"? How long ago did she quit sleeping with you?

Does this mean you are not having sex now?

Time for counseling.

Ha ve you you read MMSLP yet?

Also, get the book HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS, its excellent.


----------



## Nucking Futs

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Is anyone else starting to get that "feeling" about this thread also...:scratchhead:


Nope. I don't think it's dramatic enough to doubt.


----------



## weightlifter

He HAS tried to plan stuff together.

She has rejected them.


----------



## Cubby

weightlifter said:


> He HAS tried to plan stuff together.
> 
> She has rejected them.


:iagree: Yeah, I have a hard time blaming Logan. She clearly doesn't want to spend time with him. She's on a hotness kick and it doesn't involve Logan.

I keep thinking Logan needs to find out the extent of this. The dance club wardrobe change and the pouting attitude gives him a good idea, but there's so much that's unknown.


----------



## weightlifter

Cubby said:


> :iagree: Yeah, I have a hard time blaming Logan. She clearly doesn't want to spend time with him. She's on a hotness kick and it doesn't involve Logan.
> 
> I keep thinking Logan needs to find out the extent of this. The dance club wardrobe change and the pouting attitude gives him a good idea, but there's so much that's unknown.


A "trip out of town" on a weekend is needed. Semi hot female PI ready since she goes into clubs with bouncers. I believe the probability of PA is fairly low say 25% so I would definitely give the female PI c0ckblock orders.

I rather like that he is trying. I just wish he would simply ask her.

1) Did you dance with other men at that club?
2) Did you let them buy you drinks?
3) So you have no problem if I go to a club and dance with other women?

He needed that question asked directly. It hurts I get it. 

shrug. I feel for him actually. Then again I am far far more direct than he.


----------



## Cubby

I went back and read the opening post. I forgot that she goes out with the group of friends (her friends, not his) from the gym. So she's upbeat and enthusiastic about working out at the gym on this morning, rather than spending the morning with her family.

I know what it's like to have a wife who's on a hotness kick. After the 28 year old predator personal trainer started flooding my 48 year old wife with compliments, she started buying sexy workout clothes and spent a lot more time at the gym, even turning down family stuff, just like Logan's wife is doing. It was frustrating to realize that the gym was the biggest priority. After I finally caught on and had a major confrontation with my wife, I figured it's time to join in on the workouts WITH my wife, c0ckbl0cking any kind of male attention she might receive. Two years later, we still exercise together (at a different gym) and are much closer than we were. 

Logan, you can't let this stuff go on. You've put an end to the dance club, but the gym can be fertile ground for affairs. She seemed to enthusiastic about spending her morning there. I believe in one of your earlier posts you said she didn't really want you working out with her? Can't remember exactly. But you do have to spend more time with her. Remember, you need 10 to 15 hours of together-time with your wife, not including watching TV to keep that tight bond. 

But I would still want to find out exactly what's going on.


----------



## Chris H.

Just a reminder that it is against our guidelines here to accuse people of "trolling" or fabricating their stories. The reason for this is because it is very disrespectful.

If you feel like this is the case, please ignore the thread or report it to a moderator.


----------



## Iver

Logan,

Can you tell me if you've had a "sit-down" with W and asked what is going on in terms of her not wanting to spend time with you?

Also, can you give a progress report on your fitness results?

thanks and again, good luck...


----------



## carmen ohio

Logan,

Along the lines of some of the advice you're receiving, here's what I posted back on May 2nd:

". . . Whether your wife is or is not doing anything she shouldn't, it's clear from your posts that your marriage is in jeopardy simply because she has improved herself and you haven't.

"Get a copy of MMSLP and read it. It will provide you with sound advice on how to improve your sexual attractiveness which, if your wife hasn't started looking around yet, will help strengthen your marriage. It's not about "packing on muscle" or taking up "macho" hobbies; it's about exuding self-confidence, being more exciting and less predictable and having self-respect -- i.e., being the kind of man that woman are genetically programmed to be attracted to.

"If you truly believe that she isn't doing anything improper, then there is no reason to "spy" on her but then even more reason to have a heart-to-heart talk about what is bothering you (as well as to learn if you are falling down on the job in her eyes). Because of the nature of the issues that people bring to TAM/CwI, there is a tendency to cast every problem as one of infidelity. But there are lots of marriages in which neither party has strayed but one (or even both) aren't getting what they need. This situation breeds infidelity. The antidote is honest and frequent communication.

"Don't be afraid to talk to her about your concerns. Don't accuse her of anything and listen carefully to what she has to say. If she answers your questions straightforwardly and without hostility, that's good. If she goes on to say that she thinks there are areas of your marriage that need improving, tell her you will consider what she says with an eye to improving things -- and then do so. But if she doesn't want to have such a conversation or turns it into a gripe session about all of your past and present failings, then you know that your marriage is in trouble (whether she's already begun stepping out or not).

". . . The point is that, in a healthy marriage, spouses willingly communicate and share things with each other. They also change things up from time to time to keep the marriage fresh and rewarding. Give your wife a chance to do this and see if she responds appropriately. If she does, maybe all you need to do is to start working on improving your marriage. If she doesn't, you can consider going deeper into surveillance mode.

"Based on everything you've said as well as the experience of numerous TAM threads, I'd say there's a reasonable chance that she hasn't done anything seriously inappropriate (yet) but also a good chance that she is at least beginning to warm to the idea. Don't let this happen. Start being the kind of husband that no woman would want to cheat on (read MMSLP) and start -- in a calm and measured way -- to talk to her about what's bothering you.

"Hope for the best, expect something less, but prepare for the worst."

+++

I stand by that advice. Time to have a frank discussion with your W about what she wants from your marriage. If it's not consistent with what you want, then you're going to have to think seriously about whether you want to stay in a marriage with a woman who isn't willing to give you what you want.

In the end, you and only you are responsible for your happiness.


----------



## Iver

I also don't sense "W" is having an affair - yet.

I've repeatedly urged Logan to check her texts, not for any expectation of a smoking gun, but to get a sense of where her head is at. 

I haven't stated this specifically but I wanted him to do that because I suspect he's going to find a surprising (at least to Logan) amount of contempt & bad mouthing for him in her messages to her buddies. 

If any of the recipients of these messages are guys, well, the ice is cracking under his feet.

Anyway, he's resisted that course of action so we'll see what happens next...


----------



## Chaparral

Blog | Married Man Sex Life

No More Mr. Nice Guy

Logan, here are two links to blogs that should interest you.

Hope you are keeping your eyes peeled and things are going good.


----------



## Shaggy

How did the weekend go?


----------



## The Middleman

Loagan3: Any updates?


----------



## Logan 3

The Middleman said:


> Loagan3: Any updates?





Iver said:


> Also, can you give a progress report on your fitness results?


Thanks for the concern, guys. I don't think I'll post anymore, after certain people (on page 27) implied that my situation "didn't pass the smell test...". When someone opens up and asks for help during the hardest time of their life, it's pretty lousy to suggest that they're lying.

Holding my marriage together is stressful enough. Finding the nerve to write about it online is sometimes too much. But I definitely don't have the energy to confront people on a message board who want to call me a liar. Especially when the supposed "tip off" was the fact that my family ate breakfast together.

For all the people who've shared sincere, compassionate advice with me, thank you. This has been the most heartbreaking challenge I've had to face, and I appreciate everyone who genuinely tried to help me get through it.

Logan


----------



## karole

Good luck Logan. I hope things work out for you.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Logan 3 said:


> Thanks for the concern, guys. I don't think I'll post anymore, *after certain people (on page 27) implied that my situation "didn't pass the smell test...".* When someone opens up and asks for help during the hardest time of their life, it's pretty lousy to suggest that they're lying.
> 
> Holding my marriage together is stressful enough. Finding the nerve to write about it online is sometimes too much. But I definitely don't have the energy to confront people on a message board who want to call me a liar. Especially when the supposed "tip off" was the fact that my family ate breakfast together.
> 
> For all the people who've shared sincere, compassionate advice with me, thank you. This has been the most heartbreaking challenge I've had to face, and I appreciate everyone who genuinely tried to help me get through it.
> 
> Logan


As one of "those" people, I'm sorry for thinking that you may have been less than truthful Logan.

You have to admit though, that you are hot and cold in a single post. You seemed to put your foot down and make a stand one minute and in the next you're indecisive and a beta-squared.

I know it was tough for you to post here. Please understand, that for many of us it has also been tough to read your posts. Many of us believe that your wife is well on her way to having an affair. She may have been in the early stages already and you were very slow to act on this. You finally did act, then it was wait and see again...

I do wish you well. You have some serious problems in your marriage. I truly hope that you can get them all taken care of before something really bad happens to it.

Again I am TRULY sorry if I'm one of the reasons you are leaving TAM. I've learned my lesson.

Take care.


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## Iver

Logan,

I hope things work out for you; I know you're in a tough situation and even with all the tools & options open to you in the end you really can't control what another person does - W will in the end either decide to make the marriage work or pull the plug on it.

That's the cold hard truth of relationships...in the end you can't carry the weight by yourself.

As for staying with TAM, the best description of what goes on here is it's a sounding board for you to see possible options and solutions.

The fact is you'll be given suggestions that range from great, to good to OK to useless and some that are ridiculous and the occasional not so nice...

The question for you is does the good advice outweigh the bad? Do you in the end benefit from reading & interacting with the posters?

I do hope you stick with it - I believe from reading your posts and seeing your thought processes you are an intelligent, very nice man who wants his marriage to work but...right now you are flying solo though some serious turbulence and not quite sure how best to handle it.

I believe some of the suggestions here will help you get through all this.

But whatever you do the Best of Luck to you.


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## Refuse to be played

I hope you don't leave for good Logan....I know exactly how you feel. A couple of people questioned me and my situation for a bit but the key is don't let it bother you. For every doubter there are 3 more that are willing to help and advise you.

Seriously folks, if you question the validity of someone's thread just go on about your way or report it. Calling someone out on their thread when they are dealing with serious crap is only going to piss them off and drive them away, I know I almost left.

Either way I wish you the best with your situation Logan and I hope there is nothing going on but some boundary issues.


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## Iver

Logan,

re. confronting posters:

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw


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## Chaparral

It is strictly forbidden to question a posters veracity. This is only the jobs of the moderators.

If you see someone calling troll or implying it please inform a mod. They do not read every post. If you think someone is a troll , again, push the button, triangle with an ! In it.

Way to many suffering folks have been ran off here by holier than thou members.

What's worse , even in the case of a real troll, lurkers get a lot of info that helps them.

Its worse than sad that a person in need comes here and gets ran off because he/she doesnt follow someones advice to the letter.

Just because you see it coming doesn't mean you can always stop a train wreck.

We have to help pick up the pieces after the wreck in any event if the posters do not succeed in saving their marriage. After all the odds are stacked heavily against you by the time you end up here.


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## Chaparral

Btw, posters have to realize that they are going to get all sorts of viewpoints and should weigh the various ideas for their merit. Any forum you go on will have people you are going to disagree with. And..........there are plenty of rude folks to go around.


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## Cubby

Logan, sorry to hear you're leaving. A lot of us have put a lot of thought into your situation, which I find to be a very difficult one for you. Having been in a similar situation in some ways, I've been in your corner hoping you can get things turned around. 

I think you're making a mistake by abandoning this place just because of a couple of posts that irked you. To me, that seems a little overly sensitive, considering all the well-thought out, quality advice you've received here. 

In fact, the reason I post here is because I'm so thankful for the knowledge I've received here, that I feel obligated to pass what I've learned along to others. 

Anyway, it's your life and your marriage. I hope you get it back on track.


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## Remains

Refuse to be played said:


> I hope you don't leave for good Logan....I know exactly how you feel. A couple of people questioned me and my situation for a bit but the key is don't let it bother you. For every doubter there are 3 more that are willing to help and advise you.
> 
> Seriously folks, if you question the validity of someone's thread just go on about your way or report it. Calling someone out on their thread when they are dealing with serious crap is only going to piss them off and drive them away, I know I almost left.
> 
> Either way I wish you the best with your situation Logan and I hope there is nothing going on but some boundary issues.


Refuse had a barrage of posters shouting the 't' word. It was unpleasant. I am glad you are still here refused. I hope you are doing good. 

And Logan, just because a couple say it, by absolutely NO means does everyone think it. Not by any stretch.


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## See_Listen_Love

Logan 3 said:


> Thanks for the concern, guys. I don't think I'll post anymore, after certain people (on page 27) implied that my situation "didn't pass the smell test...". When someone opens up and asks for help during the hardest time of their life, it's pretty lousy to suggest that they're lying.
> 
> Holding my marriage together is stressful enough. Finding the nerve to write about it online is sometimes too much. But I definitely don't have the energy to confront people on a message board who want to call me a liar. Especially when the supposed "tip off" was the fact that my family ate breakfast together.


I checked to see what that was about, and find only a couple of posts that are like that. The overwhelming majority of posters is working on your side.

That means to me you are over-sensitive at this. You look at the negative points and over dramatize them. I see the same with regards to you wife.

You need to look at the facts and if you need more, follow the advice you have been given. Put your feelings aside here for the greater good, for saving your family, either from her EA/PA, or from yourself, your uncertainty, which can be also devastating for your relation.

Good luck, and I hope you stand firm and stay!


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## Iver

Logan,

Hoping to get an update on your situation.

Good Luck.


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## weightlifter

Hes not coming back... He got offended.

Unless he needs us.

Kind of hoping he doesnt actually. That would mean his marriage is healing. Im kinda reading it the other way but I do like the occasional good news.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

weightlifter said:


> Hes not coming back... He got offended.
> 
> Unless he needs us.
> 
> Kind of hoping he doesnt actually. That would mean his marriage is healing. Im kinda reading it the other way but I do like the occasional good news.


The thing that sticks out to me the most about his thread was what his WS said when he had her followed, that ONE time. He bagged her going to a pick 'em up type dance club with a toxic GF.

She said that he was controlling and that "they" told her that he wasn't going to let her have any "FUN". FUN ='s things that a married person should not be doing with out their spouse.

As far as I could tell, she was already gone. When he had her followed(the one and only time), she ducked into an ally to shed her business blazer and swap her "married" shoes for a pair of come_fvck_me pumps. Then headed to the meat market.

She obviously had been doing this for a while. Who knows what he would have found out if he had had her tailed into the nightclub a few times. You just know that she was doing more than just dancing.

But he put his foot down - NO more GNO's... Then she starts heading to the gym during what use to be family breakfast...

So now she'll end up using the gym as a front, in due time...


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## Iver

Yeah, I'm curious if things have blown up or not. 

He had a curious habit of avoidance - even when he put his foot down after recognizing things were out of control he never was willing to investigate to see what was going on.

Still not sure if his wife was fooling around or just playing at being single.

Hope it works out for him...sucks to be a family man and have that dumped on you.


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## BK23

I wish him the best. His story pushed my buttons pretty bad. Had to avoid reading it at times.


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## weightlifter

Look i concur but the tone of some posts.

Remember i was against immediate confront and suggested the female pi follow the next on so she could get into the club to see exactly his wife was up to. 

He did his own thing and was generally satisfied with the results. 

His road. 
Not mine.


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