# A Sinking Ship: Need advice



## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

I will try to condense this although our situation seems too much to describe. My husband is an independent contractor working for himself, making a fairly good living so that I could stay home with the kids and not work outside the home. He was working on a huge project when his contract and the money for the contract ran out last year. Still needing to finish the project to satisfy his client and their legally binding agreement, he has continued to work on the project without pay since this past September, or five months…for free. We were already living paycheck to paycheck even when he was getting paid (the employer always having a delay to pay him) and now we have run out of savings and all funds and are living off money his parents are giving us….for all our bills, mortgage, food, etc. I took a part time job to help out which was all I could find at the time, (and I am still looking for full time work.) 
However, he insists that this project on which he is working is so immense and time-consuming that he couldn’t handle another job right now if he tried and refuses to look for work. Part of me feels that he is relying too heavily on the generosity of his parents to support us. He was also supposed to be finishing up his dissertation for his PhD but this other project has taken precedence and now he may not be able to graduate. In other words, he’s not stupid or incapable of work, he’s just immersed himself in this situation and is in over his head…and now, our heads. 
His parents have said they can continue to support us for a few more months but that’s it. This puts huge pressure on me to find a full time job in a hurry, especially when my husband is not even looking for work! Even if he were looking, he is in a very specialized field with limited transferrable skills, and as some of you know, you don’t just find a job overnight. This is affecting his health and of course our marriage. To add insult to injury, he “overlooked” paying taxes for the past 3 yrs so now we owe the IRS almost 100k, to add to the 100k he already owes for previous student loans (before he met me.) I have since taken over all the bills and taxes and responsibility for the household since he is completely incapable of handling any kind of stressor whatsoever. I am absorbed with resentment. What can I do or what would you do in this situation? I am tired of being broke and in a financial hole because of him!


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Where to begin. He is either a terrible estimator of projects or signs contracts that don't protect him enough. Who foots the bill when the customer waffles on the design? Maybe he's better off billing for time and materials from now on. 

Unpaid taxes. Get a lawyer. The penalties are going to add up pretty quickly.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Hmmm... The two of you made enough money in the last 3 years to owe 100k, but you're living paycheck to paycheck. Would it help the two of you to get into financial counseling? And I'm not trying to be a smart ass. 

Second... Maybe your husband isn't suited to being an independent contractor?

Third... How much longer does he estimate he'll be working for free?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

PBear said:


> Hmmm... The two of you made enough money in the last 3 years to owe 100k, but you're living paycheck to paycheck. Would it help the two of you to get into financial counseling? And I'm not trying to be a smart ass.
> 
> Second... Maybe your husband isn't suited to being an independent contractor?
> 
> ...


Yeah he was making 6 figures so that's why we owed so much. The problem is the employer would take a long time to pay him so we'd sometimes have to wait weeks in between checks with no money in the bank. Regarding the taxes, we worked with a tax company but they settled with the IRS for 80k for us. I'm handling the taxes from now on. 
He won't fare well working for anyone else, he's worked for himself for 15 years doing the same thing. He could teach at the nearby college which has an opening, but he refuses...says it's too political, etc. Excuses, excuses. 
He says he doesn't know how much longer the project will take him to finish (working for free) and that makes me extremely nervous. How can you not have an end in sight? How can you see a deadline come and go with your family's well-being riding on it and not look for other work in the meantime? I just don't get it! I don't know what to do! I feel like we're drowning because of him.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

So he was making 6 figures, but you can't go a few weeks between checks without things falling apart? Are you (and by you, I mean both of you) living within your means?

And your husband has been working on his own for 15 years, but "forgets" to pay his taxes for 3 years? And you STILL were living paycheck to paycheck?

The two of you need a financial intervention. Speaking from the limited amount I can see on your post here. 

As far as your immediate issue... I don't have much. You can't "force" him to do anything. You can state your boundaries, but you need to be prepared to enforce them. Perhaps marriage counseling would help. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

We were living within our means but we were also paying off a lot of debt at the same time. That is almost gone now. And yes he stopped paying taxes and stopped doing a lot of other things a little after we got married (5 years ago.) He does not have his "stuff" together anymore and is a whirlwind of chaos...mentally, emotionally, financially, and physically. If it weren't for his parents the house would be in foreclosure by now. We were in marriage counseling with our minister and he decided my dh needed the counseling more so he sees him every week. They want to work strictly on his issues. It is a little too late for a financial intervention, we need a miracle. And jobs...we need jobs.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

MerryMerry said:


> Yeah he was making 6 figures so that's why we owed so much. The problem is the employer would take a long time to pay him so we'd sometimes have to wait weeks in between checks with no money in the bank. Regarding the taxes, we worked with a tax company but they settled with the IRS for 80k for us. I'm handling the taxes from now on.
> He won't fare well working for anyone else, he's worked for himself for 15 years doing the same thing. He could teach at the nearby college which has an opening, but he refuses...says it's too political, etc. Excuses, excuses.
> He says he doesn't know how much longer the project will take him to finish (working for free) and that makes me extremely nervous. How can you not have an end in sight? How can you see a deadline come and go with your family's well-being riding on it and not look for other work in the meantime? I just don't get it! I don't know what to do! I feel like we're drowning because of him.


What does he do and who does he do it for? Can you say that in general terms? 

I work in the software industry. I've been an independent contractor as well as the employee of a consulting company. As an independent 1099 employee I had to pay the taxes that an employer would normally pay on top of the taxes that any employee normally pays. But my contracts were always on a time and materials basis. 

As the employee of a consulting company I only had to pay my share of the taxes, but the company had to estimate the size of the project and if it was underestimated the company had to eat the cost. I still got paid. 

What your husband did was opt for the worst of each situation - pay the employer's share of taxes AND assume the risk inherent in estimating AND the risk inherent to him in a poor contract. 

There are some pretty predatory companies out there who essentially try to get something for nothing by claiming that the consultant hasn't fulfilled the contract. They do that because independent contractors don't pay attention to the bad terms they are signing off on. Also because they figure that the contractor won't bother with a legal action. 

Have you seen a lawyer about his current endless contract?


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

His job is so specific I can't describe it...let's just say he works for a group that is going before Congress for a cause that could save taxpayers millions of $$$. It's a huge project where he is researching so much that it could go on forever. However they paid for several years of work and the money and dates are gone. He can't stop working because his work would be shot down in Congress as incomplete and have too may holes in it. It would hurt his reputation in his field if he walked away. He'd couldn't get a reference from current people and it would hurt him professionally. Basically he underestimated the scope of work he was getting into. But to address what you said, they paid him a certain rate and he was supposed to pay estimated taxes which he didn't do. Ouch.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Well I still don't understand. Let's say I make a contract with you that says "I will do everything you ask until you are happy." That's clearly a bad contract because it's too vague. What is everything? What is happy?

I'm not a lawyer, but I would think that you couldn't get a court to enforce that contract. If, as you say, the research that he is doing could be endless, how could that be part of an enforceable contract? Does it say he will work for them for free in perpetuity?

How lame are the people that he works for that they would intentionally ruin him if he asked to renegotiate a new contract? 

Most of the people I know who do research are either paid to do it - scientists and professors, or have another job that pays the bills.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

So when the parents-in-law say they can only help for another few months, what's your husband's response?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Well I still don't understand. Let's say I make a contract with you that says "I will do everything you ask until you are happy." That's clearly a bad contract because it's too vague. What is everything? What is happy?
> 
> I'm not a lawyer, but I would think that you couldn't get a court to enforce that contract. If, as you say, the research that he is doing could be endless, how could that be part of an enforceable contract? Does it say he will work for them for free in perpetuity?
> 
> ...


I am in complete agreement with you and have asked many of the same questions. When he is pressed for a response he gets very agitated and yells that he can't deal with it...Just leave it alone! Now you see how frustrated I am with the situation, with him, and with our overall financial problems. It is truly tearing us apart. He is at a Dr's appt now because of the stress.


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

PBear said:


> So when the parents-in-law say they can only help for another few months, what's your husband's response?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He won't talk about it. His parents (who have helped him out his whole life financially) have told him they won't let us lose the house. So he has that to fall back on, but other than that he won't talk about it. It all is falling on my shoulders to get a higher paying, full-time job so he can continue working for free.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Do you two have kids? How old are you two?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

PBear said:


> Do you two have kids? How old are you two?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We have two teenagers; we're in our mid-40's.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MerryMerry said:


> I am in complete agreement with you and have asked many of the same questions. When he is pressed for a response he gets very agitated and yells that he can't deal with it...Just leave it alone! Now you see how frustrated I am with the situation, with him, and with our overall financial problems. It is truly tearing us apart. He is at a Dr's appt now because of the stress.


Wow, you're married to my husband. 

Is there someone in his field who you could talk to and ask this person to take him under his wing and be his protector against this contract he's messed up with?


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

The fact that his parents have bailed him out his entire life does NOT bode well for the future. That is an ingrained mind-set with him now...he's SPECIAL and you should quit bugging him about mundane things...he's an intellectual, you know!

Trust me, been there, done that, got the debt to prove it! I walked after 20years because I could not take the constant financial upheaval. My STBXH used to tell me that I was just 'making cr*p up to worry about' when I would calmly tell him we have X amount due and Y in the bank. 

The reality is, your H doesn't want to discuss it because *he just doesn't care*! The precarious financial position that you, the kids, he himself are all in DOES NOT MATTER ONE WHIT compared to his ego, his reputation, his 'potential' to save taxpayers millions!

If you could get him out of the contract THIS WEEK, I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts he'd continue on the project UNPAID. This isn't about the contract, this is all about ego and self-worth. You and the kids are going to come in a very poor (both literally and figuratively) second!

Draw your line in the sand and WALK when he steps over it. He will NOT change (I'm guessing he's got a lot of narcissistic tendencies, too). You've got your life, your retirement, your kids' education and future to worry about. Believe me, he's not worrying! He's living in his head, in his fantasy-land where he's going to be the savior of the world.

BTW: No-one "FORGETS" to pay taxes for 3 years...everybody knows what April 15th means!


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

You two need to address these issues. Some suggestions. 

1. Can you speak to him, in a non-accusatory, let's try to address the problem fashion instead of the frequent wifely, I can't believe what you did, how we got in this situation, this is so stressful to me, my friends can't believe what is happening, etc. Men are far more comfortable with addressing problems than in reviewing what was supposedly done wrong previously. 

2. Some people are afraid of legal issues. However working on a project and not getting paid may accomplish nothing. three months later he may be in the same situation working long weeks for nothing. He may have to work off if someone does not find funding. That means if he does make the decision to walk off, you can't later complain if there is a lawsuit and instead will be there to say this was OUR decision and let's work through this. Alternatively, perhaps he will record a lien work through the problems, and hope there is a payoff later. 

3. Your goal is to constructively solve the issues and problems. Complimenting him, telling you love him, and that you will take equal responsibility for whatever is decided would be good; rehashing all the other alleged problems will accomplish little or nothing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Draw your line in the sand and WALK when he steps over it. He will NOT change (I'm guessing he's got a lot of narcissistic tendencies, too). You've got your life, your retirement, your kids' education and future to worry about. Believe me, he's not worrying! He's living in his head, in his fantasy-land where he's going to be the savior of the world.


QFT


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

Bobby5000 said:


> You two need to address these issues. Some suggestions.
> 
> 1. Can you speak to him, in a non-accusatory, let's try to address the problem fashion instead of the frequent wifely, I can't believe what you did, how we got in this situation, this is so stressful to me, my friends can't believe what is happening, etc. Men are far more comfortable with addressing problems than in reviewing what was supposedly done wrong previously.
> 
> ...


Thank you, this was helpful. I am not going to walk away from my marriage, I think you see my situation. Because of this thread and its responses, I had a "Come to Jesus" talk with dh, so to speak, and I reiterated what some of you said. I used the tone that you mentioned here, in a non-accusatory way, and told him that it was illogical to continue what he's doing (trying to appeal to his intellect.) I told him I would help (as best I could) put the finishing touches on the project and he agreed to finish in 3 weeks. That is progress! I think he can start looking for a job at that time. I laid out how this chaos has taken over our lives, to which he agreed, and made a DECISION to end it. We shall see how it goes I guess! I have to disagree to the person who said he does not care what happens to us because his parents have always "saved the day." He does care very much and has the insomnia and stress to prove it. I just don't want him relying on them long-term.


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## Mr.D.E.B.T. (Jul 19, 2012)

MerryMerry,

I'm glad to hear you had that talk with him. Going forward I would advise you both to always focus on what you can control and let everything else be. You can't make people hire you or finish projects when you would like, but you can control your part in each equation. Great job and I hope all goes well.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

He needs to be a business person if he wants to be in business for himself. I agree with Verm that he needs to renegotiate this contract. From what you've said, he's not the only one with an interest in this (someone was paying him previously) and there can be no expectation that he works for free.

On the other hand if this free work is an investment in the future (many successful people have done "free" work to build a business), then this strategy must be clear to you and you must both agree. It sounds like the attitude is not really that this is to be evaluated as an investment but sounds like he's on the back foot - e.g. attitude that he'll lose his rep if he quits, needs to fulfill a contract, etc.). I suggest that you put aside the sunk cost in terms of his financial and emotional investment in this to date and decide if it makes sense to continue from this point onward.

What's the risk of this investment? What is the objective when he finishes this? Will he have a real business at the end? Are there other customers out there for this? Is it completely dependent on congress approving something? Is it binary - if it doesn't work is he in a dead end? What's the likelihood of it working (particularly if there are no financial resources remaining from those who initially were backing it)? These hard questions and many others need to be asked. If it doesn't add up, then it's plan B time. Or if you simply can't survive making this 'investment' then it's also plan B time.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

MerryMerry said:


> Thank you, this was helpful. I am not going to walk away from my marriage, I think you see my situation...I have to disagree to the person who said he does not care what happens to us because his parents have always "saved the day." He does care very much and has the insomnia and stress to prove it. *I just don't want him relying on them long-term*.


And yet from your original post more than FOUR years ago:



MerryMerry said:


> ... so I won't rehash here...or bring up financial stuff there to keep it simple. But I need help! My H and I married 7/08, he sold his house *which was paid for by his parents* and *they let him keep the money*. We took the money from his house to pay half of a new house, and his parents loaned the other half to us with the understanding we'd pay them pay *asap* by refinancing after we closed...Well my husband has done nothing to see about the refinance part...Secondly, his parents are really mift that its taken so long for the refinancing that his father wants to put a Deed of Trust on our house soley in his name. They think we're going to get divorced anyway and they don't want me to be able to have a stake in the home...I'm wondering if we do get divorced (it's a possibility unfortunatey,) if his parents will actually be able to cut me out of the house since it's money they gave to their son, or am I entitled to half because of the law?...*His parents hate me and financially ruined my husband's ex. They have the financial wherewithall to do the same to me if I don't look out for myself. By the way, I don't WANT a divorce...but I've been reading some of my husband's writings lately and it's something he's been talking to family about behind my back. I have to be prepared...even if we're in counseling and he says he's "trying." He's extremely verbally/emotionally abusive* ...Oh, and when he sold his house, he set that up in a private account without my name on it...my house proceeds went straight to a joint account. Even when I questioned that many times, he never moved the money...probably due to his parents advice. Help please!


and from 2010:



> We've been married almost 2 years and been in counseling for about 1 1/2 +yrs....almost the entire marriage.





> ...every counselor we've seen has given us concrete suggestions to follow, books to read, exercises to practice, things to try, etc. I can honestly say that I've tried every single thing that has been suggested to me, whether I agreed with it or liked it or not...I was willing! ...My husband has NOT followed direction, or he "picks and chooses" what he wants to do..for a few days. ... Do I stay in counseling with him forever ...Or am I just spinning my wheels with a man who obviously doesn't want to put forth the same effort that I'm willing to put forth? I'm learning a lot, but his tires are spewing mud in my face! I'm ready to go into our ministers office tommorow morning and say "Forget it! I'm done!" I just don't think it should take a smart man this long to get his act together and do a little work! Am I crazy? When do I give up? I'm miserable.


I just don't see a lot of change in your situation in the past 4+ years. I see YOU doing a lot of work. I see YOU making inquiries, trying, taking steps to change things for the better. But, what has he REALLY done to change HIMSELF? To make himself a better man than he was when you married in July 2008? Anything? Or does he think he's already so swell that nothing needs improvement (other than for you to quit kvetching?) His parents control him (and by extension, his wives) with money.

Only YOU can decide if you get enough positives out of this relationship to make it worthwhile. But looking back at the threads you've started for the last 4 years, makes me sad. Same stuff, different year. And YOU are still here trying to make it work...it looks like you're doing it single-handedly. How's that working out for you and your daughter?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

what if you went to his parents and explained it all to them, and asked them to help you effect changes in him?


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Wouldn't that be infantilizing him? Mommy, Daddy, and wife try to make Mr. MerryMerry act like a grown-up? Why is it any of those person's responsibility to 'effect change' in another grown person?

I think this would be counter-productive.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Wouldn't that be infantilizing him? Mommy, Daddy, and wife try to make Mr. MerryMerry act like a grown-up? Why is it any of those person's responsibility to 'effect change' in another grown person?
> 
> I think this would be counter-productive.


Sure it would. But at THIS point, if it were me, I wouldn't care. I'd want my LIFE BACK. Whatever it takes.


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## 2galsmom (Feb 14, 2013)

Notice how much emphasis is placed on his parents, so much of their life is dependent upon them, now going to them will get someone's life back?

You can only get your life back yourself. Someone's parents are someone else's parents and in this case they enable their son to be the person he is today.

Their son is acting like an entitled responsibility-shirking infant, going to his parents will not get her life back. She needs to grow up as well and stop waiting for solutions to come in the form of other people, that is what she has done for apparently 4 years right?

How is that working for her? Now she comes here, we can't fix it. 

OP have to force yourself out of hope and denial and look at this for what it is, a problem that grows larger each year.

Merry-Merry would be a codependent if she devoted her life to changing Mr. Merry-Merry and his family dynamics.

Change yourself first Merry-Merry get a job and pay yourself first.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

As an IC he's pretty much his own business. I don't know the system in your country but over here we claim alot back on tax


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

2galsmom said:


> Notice how much emphasis is placed on his parents, so much of their life is dependent upon them, now going to them will get someone's life back?


When it comes to money? Maybe. I'm not talking about relationship or anything other than money.


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

I do have a part-time job. It doesn't pay much, but its something. In my spare time I am job-hunting. I think I mentioned this already. I don't know how I'd feel about going to his parents for help in getting dh independent. They defend him to the max and think he can do no wrong. Today I confronted him about not working hard enough to finish his project and he had a meltdown; threw things across the kitchen, cursed, kicked stuff, etc. He says I don't know what this is doing to his health, that I have no sympathy for the toll it's taking on him. Part of that is right. I say that if you have a family to support then you do your best to try and support them, even on your sick days. When I was a single mom I went to work when I was sick because I didn't have a choice. Bills had to be paid. I can't stand to see him disregard those values. 
And to 2GalsMom: I don't come here thinking you people can "fix" my life, but it really does help me to get feedback on my situation. Everyone else in my life knows us and its hard for them to be objective. Here, at least, I can get that objectivity. In fact one person in this thread, (I don't have it in front of me while I'm writing this) put things so straight that it enabled me to have that "Come to Jesus" talk with him last week that was so needed. Turnera was right, I just want my life back.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What did you do when he threw his 4 year old's hissy fit?


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

turnera said:


> What did you do when he threw his 4 year old's hissy fit?


My daughter and I went upstairs to get away from him. She said "Mom, I'm scared." and I called my AA sponsor. That's all I could think of to do. Then he sent me a long text saying "Thanks for the sympathy" and how I didn't understand how sick he is, and he can't work when he has this serious health concern, which the stress is making worse. That by urging him to work today really "hurt" him and set him off so that he couldn't control his emotions and thus lashed out in anger. I haven't really responded because he said he doesn't want to discuss it any further. I am not dealing with it well at all.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm sorry, but it's time to move out. You are damaging your child by having her grow up around this manipulation. Trust me. BTDT. My DD23 is this very minute at her therapist because of growing up with the spitting image of your husband. She has told me several times she wishes I would have left a long time ago.

And leaving doesn't mean divorcing. It just may be the wakeup call he needs to understand he can't keep being the baby of the family and being manipulative and laying guilt trips on you just so HE can avoid the hard work.


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

2Gals, thanks for clarifying. Turnera, I don't understand how I can leave him being that his parents are supporting us, in other words, I can't use his parents money to get an apartment, so where will I go? My part time job wouldn't even pay for groceries, and I'd still have financial responsibilities linked to him (joint account and bills, etc.) Believe me I have thought about leaving but 1. I can't afford to, and 2. I believe in trying to solve problems. What I think I've gleaned from this thread is that I can't change him, this financial hole we're in can't last forever, and that I need to take some sort of action. One thing is sure, is that once I get a full time job (which I have a good lead on) it will not motivate him to get one any sooner. He will still keep working on this project and sponging off his parents until they can't help anymore, and then I'm solely supporting the family on a pitiful salary by myself. I just wish there was a simple solution to all this...a black and white checklist of things to do to solve this problem; a set of financial guidelines and a playbook for our marriage. I would follow every rule and try every avenue to "fix" this!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You can leave him if you want to. Maybe not this week or this month, but you can leave him if you want to. 

He's not going to change. So you have a decision to make - accept he will never change and give up having any other life. Or decide you WON'T live like this, and start doing what's necessary to be able to move on.


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

Yes, to answer your question I do love him. I was trying to stay on topic by only posting about our financial problems, but the truth is that I don't want to leave him. My dd calls him Daddy, and his dd calls me Mom. We are a family, as dysfunctional as we are. I guess I believe in the old "richer or poorer" thing, but am also looking for helping in dealing with the "poorer" part of it all. I have to disagree however, with the part that he won't change. He's been meeting with our minister every week now for counseling for years and he's changed tremendously for the better. The minister even tried to help dh by getting someone from the church to assist dh in finishing the project. Don't think that's been utilized yet though. Anyway, I do think people can change if they have a desire to change. As for setting my own accounts up, I did that years ago when we were having other problems. I even had a lot of AA friends donate money to me so I could leave if I needed to. That money was all spent on bills and groceries when my dh stopped working. No emergency fund left for me. I am making a plan for change though Turnera, in that I'm looking for a full time job. Once I am making money, then I will have more options and can make an actual plan. Also to address what 2Gals said, he is not a trust fund child, but his parents just have a lot of money. They have done even more for his other brothers believe it or not, who have also have financial challenges. I hate living off their money, as they hold it over our heads but we have no choice. I am with him because he is my best friend, but a best friend who has made a lot of bad decisions which have affected me unfortunately. Quite frequently I read on these boards that people suggest "just leave him" or "get away as soon as you can." Is there any other option to work things out instead of leaving? I think it's normal to think of leaving but that would make me feel I didn't work hard enough.


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## 2galsmom (Feb 14, 2013)

Then your ship is not sinking.

Do you just want to vent? I am glad he is seeing the minister. Will that help motivate him to get a job and support the family? With respect to not changing, I was talking about the money part. Successful people are motivated often by things other than money, nothing seems to motivate him to thrive in business per your description of him.

Good luck working things out and I mean that genuinely, I caution you against banking on what or who someone can be or could change into as opposed to facing and accepting who they are now.

We all have potential, we all "could" change into great things if only . . .

Remember that you too have potential. What do you want to d odor a career? What are your dreams, what were your dreams apart from being with this man? You are with this man. Do you dream of being with him as a changed man?

If I were you, I would invest in myself.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Just curious... Why do you think your financial woes won't last forever? The only place I see it going is down further to rock bottom.

C


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MerryMerry said:


> I am with him because he is my best friend


Who screams at you, throws things at you, SCARES YOUR CHILD, and bases all his decisions on what benefits him?

Maybe you need to rethink what a best friend is. Or at least go to therapy to figure out why you value yourself so low.


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

A lot of what you say makes sense. I acknowledge that I sometimes turn a blind eye to his behavior and am too easy to forgive. I never saw it as devaluing myself but perhaps it's true. Some of your responses are hard to hear, but I haven't yet considered leaving. I don't want to continue living like this the rest of my life, and you're right, it is like taking a gamble. It may be easy to say "just leave him" if you're on the outside looking in, but it's much harder to think about when it's your life.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"I even had a lot of AA friends donate money to me so I could leave if I needed to. That money was all spent on bills and groceries when my dh stopped working. No emergency fund left for me."

Don't even know what to say about this other than you need to pay those people back! You have no intention of leaving and basically scammed them.


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

Blondilocks said:


> "I even had a lot of AA friends donate money to me so I could leave if I needed to. That money was all spent on bills and groceries when my dh stopped working. No emergency fund left for me."
> 
> Don't even know what to say about this other than you need to pay those people back! You have no intention of leaving and basically scammed them.



What a naive response. I shared in a meeting one day what was happening with my husband and some of the people took a private collection and gave it to me after the meeting. They gave me money when he kicked me out of the house and I didn't have money to go to a motel. I didn't know where I was going to stay. I was told to save the money for when I needed it in case it happened again. A few times I gave part of it away when another AA person needed it, and the rest when we had no food. In other words, I passed on what was freely given to me or used when I needed it. I didn't "scam" anyone.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

You H has kicked you out of the house, driven you deeply in debt (with his parents), yelled at you, thrown things, your child has witnessed all of this, you are totally dependent on the financial good-will of his parents (at what emotional cost?) to survive, you've spent a large portion of your marriage in some type of counseling....and yet, you STILL make all kinds of excuses for him.

Everyone here can see plenty of reasons why this marriage is not healthy for you and not healthy for your daughter! You need to be honest with yourself about *why* you're staying! Do you fear what you will think of yourself if you're a twice-divorced woman? What your parents/family will think of you? What your church members/religious leader will think of you? What God will think of you?

Do you feel that you already have x # of years into it, and you don't want to throw it away? Do you believe that you will someday inherit enough $$$ from your in-laws to make all this misery (for yourself AND for your daughter) worth it?

Please be mindful that you and your husband are modeling for your daughter what it means to be:

an adult
a man
a woman
a spouse
a parent
Are you two thoughtfully choosing the best lessons to teach her?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Or do you just not want to be alone at night?


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

turnera said:


> Or do you just not want to be alone at night?


Ah, you guessed it. I'm afraid to be alone at night. You got me! I guess it's too hard to believe that two people can overcome their mistakes and problems and stick to the vows they took. This forum is the perfect place to come if you want to leave your spouse, you'll have tons of people telling you to walk. I just wanted (and think I received) some good feedback on how to handle our financial problems with regards to our marriage. I want my marriage to work. We have a lot of problems, like any other couple...but things have gotten better through counseling. Occasionally he will have a blowout and I let him have a 5 minute temper tantrum. Then it's over. It's better than the week of silence between us that would follow, and sleeping in separate rooms. Financially we are in a hole, and it's stressing us both out beyond belief. That's what I needed help with: how to not let it ruin us; how to survive this crisis...what kind of action can I take to support him to resolve his work issues.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You misunderstood me. It's only when you are capable of being alone that you can then approach your relationship with strength, to be able to expect, demand, take action to get, equality and what you need.

If you approach it knowing that you're willing to walk away and be alone, then you can avoid weirdness and get what you need.


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

Thank you for clarifying; I think I understand what you're saying and I agree. I don't want to walk away, but I could be alone if I had to. I was a single mom for 12 years before we got married (different daddy.) I was strong and independent and know I could be fine if I had to again, I just don't want to be single again; I love my husband. Thank you for your honest feedback, I do sincerely mull it over and it helps.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So what do you think would be the solution for this?


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

turnera said:


> So what do you think would be the solution for this?


I really don't know what to do except to be patient and pray that our situation will change for the better.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IDK, if I were in your shoes, I'd be working on becoming more independent, at least, so you don't have to depend on his parents any more. And maybe reading psychology books to get a better handle on why he is the way he is, so you can deal with him in a more logical way, to be able to get the results that benefit you, not just him.


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

turnera said:


> IDK, if I were in your shoes, I'd be working on becoming more independent, at least, so you don't have to depend on his parents any more. And maybe reading psychology books to get a better handle on why he is the way he is, so you can deal with him in a more logical way, to be able to get the results that benefit you, not just him.


You're right, I do need to work on becoming more independent. We just had a huge blowout because I told him I was going to help him finish this project so he can move forward and get a job. His response (very loudly) was to tell me to get a better job so I could support the family while he finishes this project. He said I don't do anything around the house to help him and I should be making 3 meals a day for him and supporting the family and cleaning house better. So yes, I am ready to start becoming more independent and get out from under this rock he has put me and my kids in. Maybe I am speaking out of anger, but I'm hoping I have some objectivity right now. I was never in such a financial dung pile when I was single and he is telling me it's half my fault that we're in it now. The truth comes in when he's angry, and now I know he resents me for not taking up the financial slack. I'm livid right now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good.


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

Update: met with my minister this am and told him what's going on. Dh hadn't been clean with him on how bad it is with us. Minister is going to try to get through to him but also echoed what some of you said on here and recommended I get independent. I was surprised but it also empowered me to realize I wouldn't be a failure by leaving this marriage. He didn't say I should leave, but didn't say it was a bad idea either. I re-read every post on this thread and I now agree with what some of you were saying...I just didn't have the objectivity at the time. Thank you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm sure you'll make the right decision for you. Just make sure that you are putting yourself at least equal to the other people you care for.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

MerryMerry:

You don't have to make a decision NOW. But, you SHOULD make sure that you have the financial wherewithal as well as start working on having the emotional wherewithal (as you did before) to live on your own and support both of your girls.

You may decide NOT to, but you have to be well-prepared in case you DO decide to move on ALONE.

Best Wishes!


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## Pam (Oct 7, 2010)

I just read the entire thread, and I'm shaking my head.

Your husband wants a Mommy. Are you willing to take on another child?


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Your husband is a selfish child - I was married to one of those too and it's taken me two years to get financially straight after our split (I also need a little help from parents which I hate)

Getting angry is an incredibly immature response and I genuinely can't believe he's been working for free for so long - it's utterly ridiculous. Get independent and give him an ultimatum. I'm so glad I'm free of mine, I saw us at 70 and destitute to be honest, it's a depressing feeling


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

Update on the situation: Husband now wants me to ask MY parents to help us out as well. Says that he's offended that they haven't offered already. Also said it was the "Christian thing for them to do!" I am in shock. Rather than look for a job all this time, he now wants both sets of parents to help fund his unemployment.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why are you even still with him?


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## MerryMerry (Dec 6, 2009)

turnera said:


> Why are you even still with him?


You know if I say "because I love him" no one would take that as an acceptable answer, but it's true. I told him several weeks ago that I wanted to separate and he got to upset that he said if we did that it would mean immediate divorce...no trial separation thing...he said it would hurt so badly that he'd want to move far away from here and never see me again. So with that in mind I told him I reconsidered splitting up because it would be too hard to never see him again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So he extorted you.

Charming.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

He's offended? He's offended???

That's rich. Keep on loving this self-entitled, selfish man-child and see how far that gets you. The most loving thing you could for him is to let him face the consequences of his choices so he can grow up.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MerryMerry said:


> I wanted to separate and he got to upset that he said if we did that it would mean immediate divorce


Forgot to add...

Your response SHOULD have been "Really? Great! Thank God!"


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Blondi is right. You 'say' you love him but if you really did, you would want HIM to be getting help and as long as YOU are there, he won't. So basically, it's not love keeping you there, it's your own selfishness (sorry for the bluntness) at not wanting to lose what YOU want.

That's the kind of thing you should be asking your therapist about.


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