# Losing my wife



## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

My wife had an EA last year. It ended when I found out. The reason for her EA was we moved from Florida to norther ny where she is from. I'm from the south. I gave her a rough time the first year. Things fell thru and I couldn't agree on one of these old house to buy. She was in an awful job and I did not care to show her affection. She was going to move out on the first of the year. She decided not to and stayed with me. We have two boys 14 and 10. After the EA I became attached to her hip. I was trying to compensate for all the neglect. Fast forward a year and she has a job she loves with coworkers that are young and fun. They go out after work on Thursday's and drink. I hate this but she loves it. She was stuck in Florida for 20 years without friends and now she is surrounded. I am the only unhappy thing in her life. I have spent 15 years pitting her don and telling her she was not good enough. I put others first . We bought a house and she wants to move into it without me. I am devestated. She said she has tried to fake it like dr Laura says. I have such low self esteem that I think I have done all these things to her to maybe make myself feel better. I don't know but I have to become someone my wife wants to be with. I need help.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Start by joining in with the crew for drinks on Thursday. Be the fun spouse that the coworkers all know and like.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

I was doing that but it went to late into the night for me. I have to get up 3 hrs earlier.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Charlie, why aren't you moving back in? Are you back?

Are you still arguing with her and the boys? 

It's easier if you stick to one thread so members can follow your story.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...481-my-world-has-been-tossed-upside-down.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/105777-drunk-wife-says-she-wants-divorce.html


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Stand firm on moving into the house. If she wants be alone she can let you and the boys move in without her.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

charlieg said:


> I have spent 15 years pitting her don and telling her she was not good enough... I have such low self esteem that I think I have done all these things to her to maybe make myself feel better.


Well, you earned it then. Fifteen years with that kind of damage is going to take a loooooong time to heal, if ever. You don't have a right to expect her taking you back with an "I'm sorry" and a sudden new you. 

When she finally broke free of your manipulative oppression, you probably made her ill by trying to smother her in the opposite. 




> I don't know but I have to become someone my wife wants to be with. I need help.


You have to fix whatever it is inside of you that's wrong and come to love yourself before you are of any use to another person. 

You have to do this for yourself as opposed to a desperate hail-mary pass in saving your marriage. Counselors vary a lot with experience and you are in need of someone with skills in manipulative personalities.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

The title of this thread should be "lost my wife". They don't come back after that. 180 for you and your kids. You've learned how to behave for your next wife.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

charlieg said:


> My wife had an EA last year. It ended when I found out.


How do you know it wasn't a PA?

How do you know it stopped? Are you maintaining surveillance?



charlieg said:


> The reason for her EA was we moved from Florida to norther ny where she is from. I'm from the south. I gave her a rough time the first year. Things fell thru and I couldn't agree on one of these old house to buy. She was in an awful job and I did not care to show her affection.


Okay. You're somewhat lame and she might want to divorce you over it, but that doesn't give her permission to have an affair.



charlieg said:


> She was going to move out on the first of the year. She decided not to and stayed with me. We have two boys 14 and 10.


Did she tell you she was staying for the kids?



charlieg said:


> After the EA I became attached to her hip. I was trying to compensate for all the neglect.


Unfortunately, that just lowers you in her eyes. She gets the subconscious idea that you can't get any woman but her. This makes you very unattractive.



charlieg said:


> Fast forward a year and she has a job she loves with coworkers that are young and fun. They go out after work on Thursday's and drink.


So, she gets to live the single life at least once a week. And you put up with it. Okay.

Who makes more? You or her?



charlieg said:


> I hate this but she loves it.


Sure she does. What's not to love? She goes out to drink and take a rumble in the back of some guys van in the parking lot between dances and you are nice enough to babysit the kids.



charlieg said:


> She was stuck in Florida for 20 years without friends and now she is surrounded. I am the only unhappy thing in her life. I have spent 15 years pitting her don and telling her she was not good enough. I put others first .


This does not excuse her behavior.



charlieg said:


> We bought a house and she wants to move into it without me.


She's already picked out the guy she's moving into your bed. Who is it?



charlieg said:


> I am devestated. She said she has tried to fake it like dr Laura says.


She has been faking she's not got side action from strange men.



charlieg said:


> I have such low self esteem that I think I have done all these things to her to maybe make myself feel better. I don't know but I have to become someone my wife wants to be with. I need help.


You need to change.

How often do women hit on you?

What is your workout program and frequency?


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Uh Charlie how late is she out?
Her new coworkers are single?

Why are Mach and I the only ones seeing PILES OF RED FLAGS?


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

weightlifter said:


> Uh Charlie how late is she out?
> Her new coworkers are single?
> 
> Why are Mach and I the only ones seeing PILES OF RED FLAGS?


You aren't. I'm looking at them too!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I would also suspect there is someone else with her current lifestyle...15 yrs is a very very long time.... the resentment she has filled herself with -with your prior treatment... this is a tremendous mountain to climb , she has to want it....really want this marriage... from all you have said, this is not happening. She has made up her mind.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Sorry Gen Board. Time to infect with my CWI-ness.

Charlie. Please wake up. This is bad bad bad. First of all SAY NOTHING to your wife until you get a little bit of intel on these Thursday night things. I just helped bust the 20th cheating wife in my grim times here. (that I know of. I get PMs from people who dont have threads who I never hear from again) 

Again how late is she out?
Are you SURE she is at the place she says she is or does she start there and end up elsewhere? (reference Logan3)
Any "didnt come home" incidents (reference too many to list)
Other GNOs like on Saturdays (reference too many to list, and whoever the recent one was with "girlie nights" forget name)
Other unexplained time?
How hot is she dressed when you come home?
Does she go immediately change clothes including panties? Possibly immediately doing a panty load of laundry.
Does she immediately shower afterward?

Below are exact instructions. Do this now. I mean NOW. Delaying is going to cause you more doubt and agony.
PLEASE GET THIS DONE!

Your wife is acting funny. Her phone and email suddenly have passwords you don't know. She shuts down phone apps or changes windows on the computer whenever you enter the room. She is suddenly staying out until 2 to 5 in the morning. She has new single friends. She has lost weight and is dressing hotter to boot. Her ex contacted her 3 weeks ago and she wants “to meet to catch up at some public place” Any of this sound familiar? 

If you are reading this your gut is going crazy. “Relax”, in that there is a high liklihood that you are not crazy at least. “Your gut” is your basic instinct from the caveman period. There is something up with your mate. It is part of your mind built into you and in your DNA. You probably cant sleep. You are losing weight like crazy and are not hungry. Well if you are reading this and that is 90% of you reading this if its your first time... You are embarking on what is probably going to be the worst time of your life.

Chin up, yes I know it is damn near impossible to believe now, but I and the people at TAM here have taken dozens of men through this process. Some reconcile, most dont in the long run so be aware. Most of us hang around this grim grim place for a sense of “pay it forward” and “getting at the truth” Even in divorce, the long run the majority find love again... yes really. Often selecting a far far better future companion. Read poster BFF for a thread of disaster, divorce, recovery, and a new wonderful woman in his life. Younger and hotter, yes, but also one with better boundaries, often a far far better personality match. Oh and they get to go through that first time with her after the first I love you's have been exchanged. Just know, that for the majority, even if the marriage crashes, in six months, a year, maybe two you will wonder how you got so far so fast and how great your new life is. You will also be MUCH MUCH stronger as a person.

So. Here are your instructions. Do this now. I dont mean next week. I mean make something up within the next day and GET IT DONE! Not looking will only prolong your agony.

NO MORE CONFRONTS!! Play dumb husband for a bit. Dont drive her further underground! Soft confronts RARELY WORK AND ONLY MAKE GETTING AT THE TRUTH HARDER!!! THIS PROLONGS YOUR AGONY! NEVER give up you get your intel from the VAR. You tell her, you always got your info from a PI or someone saw them. Hard confronts with overwhelming evidence to crush all resistance are the name of the game.

Buy 2 sony ICDPX312 voice activated recorders. Best Buy sells them for like 50 bucks. DO NOT BUY THE cheapies. USE LITHIUM batteries. We have examples of 25 hour recordings using them on these sony recorders. My icon IS a Sony ICDPX312. No I do not have stock in nor work for Sony.

Setup instructions are on page 19. Also good stuff on page 31.
Use 44K bit rate for balancing file size vs quality DO NOT USE 8K!!!!! Simply put. The higher the quality the better the sound and 8K sucks. ALSO. The higher the quality the more you can manipulate the mp3 in Audacity.
Set VOR "on" see page 38
See page 40 for adding memory if necessary
Play with it yourself to get familiar. TEST IT OUT 
Turn off the beep feature. Its on one of the menus. You can even play prevent defense by going to a dollar store, buying uber-cheapie earbuds, cut off the buds but put in the jack which will actually disable the speaker for additional protection.

Go to Walmart and buy heavy duty velcro.
This is one item: Velcro Heavy-Duty Hook and Loop Fastener: Office : Walmart.com
also
Purchase VELCRO Hook and Loop Fasteners, Sticky-Back, for less at Walmart.com. Save money. Live better.
The velcro is usually in the fabric section or the aisle with the fasteners like screws.

Use the velcro to attach the var under her seat UP INSIDE. SECURE IT WELL!!!!!! So well even a big bump wont knock it off. attach one side HD velcro from Walmart to back. USE BIG PIECE
attach other side HD velcro again UP INSIDE car seat. 

ATTACH THE CRAP out of it. It needs to stay put going over big potholes or railroad tracks.
I recommend exporting the sound files to your comp. The recorder is very cumbersome for playback.

Put the second VAR in whatever room she uses to talk in when you are not around. If you are a typical man, use your size advantage to put it someplace she cant reach, even on a chair. Beware spring cleaning season if she does it.

Usual warning. If you hear another man and perhaps a little kissing or... STOP Listening and have a trusted friend listen and tell you what went on. Knowing she is a cheat will kill you. Hearing her moan while another man is inside her will murder you to your very soul!!!!!! You are not strong enough to hear that. Dont try it. I know what I am talking about in this.

If you need clean up the recordings get Audacity. Its free from the internet. I have used it on var work for others here to remove things like engine noise. If needed, I have done var work for three men here. RDMU is the only one who has released some of the confidentiality. Read his second thread for my reliability and confidentiality. NEVER GIVE UP YOUR ELECTRONIC EVIDENCE. They were seen by a PI or something NOT your VAR!!

The ezoom GPS has been found to be easy to buy at Radio shack and useful.

Look for a burner phone. That is often why wives let the husband "see their phone"

Look for apps on her phone like words with friends. It has a non traceable texting feature.
Here is a list 25 Apps to Help You Cheat On Your Girlfriend | Complex


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

On your other thread, you wrote that 2 weeks ago she wanted everyone to live together and she wanted to save the marriage.

Sounds like when you pull back and give her the space she thinks she needs, she misses you and wants you back.

So give her space and figure out a way to come across as strong and independent. She's attracted to that. Don't be weak, and don't be abusive, it scares her away.

You know what you need to do, fake it if you have to.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

_Duplicate post due to lag_


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

Lenzi, this is what I know I need to do. I need to work on myself and show her that I don't need her. I am pretty sure this is what she wants. I am doing all of the electronic spring and there is nothing there. She just has no pressure fun without me. I really don't know how I became this way. I don't have anyone up here but her and the boys. I need to make my own friends.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

You made my day charlie! You have done recon and no affair!

I LOVE IT!


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

charlieg said:


> Lenzi, this is what I know I need to do. I need to work on myself and show her that I don't need her. I am pretty sure this is what she wants. I am doing all of the electronic spring and there is nothing there. She just has no pressure fun without me. I really don't know how I became this way. I don't have anyone up here but her and the boys. I need to make my own friends.


So, what's your plan?


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Whatever you do, recognize that things will not change overnight. You spent 15 years treating your wife like garbage by constantly putting her down and making her feel awful about herself. I'm amazed that she didn't divorce you to be honest. But the past is the past and you will have to atone for what you did in the marriage just like she should for the EA. I'm doubting that she feels any remorse for her EA and probably felt justified in pursuing it based on your prior treatment of her. I'm not justifying what she did, but she did react to the years of poor treatment (she just made a bad decision for how to react to it). 

In your case, I don't think doing a hardcore 180 is right for you. What you need to do is give your wife space. I don't care for the Thursday nights out drinking with her co-workers, and I think you two need to come up with a solution where you compromise on this (like the two of you going out but leaving at 8 or 9 pm for example). For the rest of it, you will need to give her more breathing room, try to set up activities for the two of you to do together and you will need to tell her how much you truly love an appreciate her (but not constant badgering). Stop with the questions about the future, i.e. what does she want to do, does she still love you, etc. Just live in the present and take it day by day. Also, when you are giving your wife the space, you need to start building your own friendships in the area. Do some things with these people so that you can build roots here instead of putting all of your eggs in your wife's basket.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

I understand. Very hard right now to think about anything but wife and kids. I have been working on the house she's moving in all weekend handling all issues. She always had to handle everything. I am also trying to increase words of affirmation. Any suggestion would be helpful. We do talk about doing things together. She was using a lot of we and us this weekend. I just can't let up ever. But not o Ed do it. Real hard
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

If she is saying 'we' and 'us' a lot that is a good sign.

I suggest you read the Five Love Languages and His Needs Her Needs, then discuss them with her.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

If she still wants to move in alone how do we explain this to the 14 and 10 year old boys. I mean I don't want this and I would give them everything. So they would not want to come over here.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

On Dec. 22, 2012 you said:


charlieg said:


> I know now that there is no one else. She just wants to be away from me.


ON Aug. 23, 2013 you said:


charlieg said:


> My wife had an EA last year. It ended when I found out. The reason for her EA was we moved from Florida to norther ny where she is from. I'm from the south.


On Aug. 26, 2013 you said:


charlieg said:


> If she still wants to move in alone how do we explain this to the 14 and 10 year old boys.


 You were wrong the first time that you said that "there is no one else", and you are wrong now. She is having another affair but is better at hiding it. Studies show that over 80% of all affairs are never detected by the spouse. You got lucky the first time in finding out. 

It was never your fault, but your wife has blame shifted it to you and your keep buying into it. You took blame for the first affair because you did not give her enough attention. Now you are taking blame because she says that you are smothering her with too much attention. You will never get it right because she does not want you to get it right. She wants an excuse to cheat, and nothing you do will ever be good enough. Stop trying to meet her needs and demand that she be an active player in either making the marriage work or ending it in divorce. Do not accept a separation. Read other threads on the infidelity section and you will see that all cheaters ask for space so that they can have more room to cheat without detection. She will not have time to see you, but the other man in her life will be seeing much more of her when she moves. Most cheaters consider separation a license to date and sleep with others, so that is what she really is asking for when she says that she wants space.

You must be willing to really end the marriage to have a chance at saving it. If she thinks she can have her cake and eat it to, which right now you are giving her, she will take it. You must make her decide, does she want to work on the marriage or end it. Tell her that you are moving into the new house that you bought and that if she does not want to live there with you will file for immediate divorce and mean it. Tell her that it is no longer going to be about just her and what she wants and that your needs matter too. Tell her that you want a wife, and that if she does not want to be that person anymore, you will find someone that does. Point out how you are tired of trying to be perfect, and that you have been a better husband than she has been a wife. If she moves out on her own, only consider taking her back if she works to earn that right. The odds of saving you marriage are better if you are willing to stand up an hold her accountable by being willing to end it than if you continue your current path. Your odds go way down when she moves out and get worse with every day that she is not living with you.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

I agree with TRy. Do not agree to her moving in without you. Apart from anything else, there are probably legal implications which would be adverse for you (you might be deemed to have left the marital home). Would the children go with her? If yes, then all the more reason.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

I am in such a bad place right now. I only stress her out with all of my stress which is at an all time high. I ruined her birthday last night by bringing all of this **** up. I hurt her continually. I love this woman and would do anything for her but I don't know why I'm doing this ****. She tells me I get a pass for most of it because she knows I don't do it on purpose. But why do I do it?


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

BTW Charlie. To make local friends
meetup.com


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

charlieg said:


> I am in such a bad place right now. I only stress her out with all of my stress which is at an all time high. I ruined her birthday last night by bringing all of this **** up. I hurt her continually. I love this woman and would do anything for her but I don't know why I'm doing this ****. She tells me I get a pass for most of it because she knows I don't do it on purpose. But why do I do it?


 You do it because she cheated on you in the past without remorse, while blaming you, and you know that she is cheating on you again, yet you cannot prove it. You are being gas lighted into thinking that you are crazy for thinking that something is wrong and that she is cheating, when in fact she is. What you are feeling, and what you are doing, is common on these threads before evidence that confirms the cheating is discovered.

Look you are reasonable and not crazy to not want your wife staying out late with her friends and other men, while you stay at home. You have been the main bread winner, clean the house, cook dinner, and yet she expects to move into the new house without you. She is in full selfish mode and this bugs you because it should. Stop letting her hold you to a standard of perfection that she does not hold herself to. As a human, you are not perfect, and thus you will never win trying to be perfect.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

charlieg said:


> I am in such a bad place right now. I only stress her out with all of my stress which is at an all time high. I ruined her birthday last night by bringing all of this **** up. I hurt her continually. I love this woman and would do anything for her but I don't know why I'm doing this ****. She tells me I get a pass for most of it because she knows I don't do it on purpose. But why do I do it?


You do it because you lack confidence with women, basically. Women like confidence, so you know your wife has no sexual attraction to you. Yet, you don't seem to be interested in making yourself sexually attractive. You're stuck on a treadmill.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> You do it because you lack confidence with women, basically. Women like confidence, so you know your wife has no sexual attraction to you. Yet, you don't seem to be interested in making yourself sexually attractive. You're stuck on a treadmill.


You get cheated on even once and you can't do anything about it, it will put you on the ropes.

I know one of my guys who stays single, if one of them cheats on him, he can reveal "I was already cheating anyway", and they can decide together if they want to remove that layer.

In a cheated on position you are sitting duck and as with respect to the perspective of the cheater, it's a "loss" position.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

treyvion said:


> You get cheated on even once and you can't do anything about it, it will put you on the ropes.
> 
> I know one of my guys who stays single, if one of them cheats on him, he can reveal "I was already cheating anyway", and they can decide together if they want to remove that layer.
> 
> In a cheated on position you are sitting duck and as with respect to the perspective of the cheater, it's a "loss" position.


There are rare exceptions to every rule, but a man should "always" go hard ass Alpha chimp on an adulterous wife. He can always moderate that if he decides it's in his best interest and/or he feels appropriate remorse has been shown. Trying to bow and scrape a woman back into a marriage is a fool's errand from every angle, as it actually kills any remaining attraction the WW has for the BH.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> There are rare exceptions to every rule, but a man should "always" go hard ass Alpha chimp on an adulterous wife. He can always moderate that if he decides it's in his best interest and/or he feels appropriate remorse has been shown. Trying to bow and scrape a woman back into a marriage is a fool's errand from every angle, as it actually kills any remaining attraction the WW has for the BH.


Alpha chimp, lol. You are right in trying to supplicate a cheating spouse, it kills any attraction you may have. You may as well not have male genetalia with respect to their perspective.

Once you get into the position it is a loss position... Continued loss with each interaction. This can destroy your self-image, your self-esteem, your confidence.

It puts you in a light, that you are worthy of this treatment. It's not attractive to anyone, even if you did nothing to deserve it.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> There are rare exceptions to every rule, but a man should "always" go hard ass Alpha chimp on an adulterous wife. He can always moderate that if he decides it's in his best interest and/or he feels appropriate remorse has been shown. Trying to bow and scrape a woman back into a marriage is a fool's errand from every angle, as it actually kills any remaining attraction the WW has for the BH.


I think this is the way to go even without infidelity. IE WAWs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Ugh why are my spidey senses still tingling?

Anyway

Charlie. Get a gym membership. It will have two effects.
1) You will look better which will do wonders for your confidence
2) It kills anxiety. Yes really.

Read the thread by bagdon (wife who does not love me) on how a man won his nearly walk away wife back by manning up.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Charlie,
I've read this thread and I want to go back and read your other thread before I respond. I'm at work now and can't really get into the conversation but I know exactly how you feel... I believe there's hope for your marriage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Try to have a calm, logical conversation about why you're moving WITH your family. Don't ask, just tell. Tell her you understand how she's feeling, but you're not ready to just walk away from your family. Don't be the hand-wringing, needy guy. Just DO.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

I just don't want to blow it by me moving in and not giving her space. I think we have about 2 weeks. The house is in her name only. But I think it would be a civil matter to get me out if I moved in. Starting 180. If she wants me to go out tonight with her what should I do. If not I might take kids to movies, I am not sitting at home while she has fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

If she wants you to go, then go, and be upbeat and plesant. If she dont want you to go act like its no big deal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Okay,
First of all, you know your wife better than any of us. Trust your gut feeling about her. You won't be able to trust your gut feeling until you've shed yourself of most of the fear of losing her and your family. It's possible to detach emotionally from her and still love her. ( I did it) You won't be detaching to rid yourself of her but to allow clear thinking and decisions for your self improvement. I've learned that no woman can resist a man that clearly values himself and demonstrates purpose. And you'll have an advantage on her in that you're the father of her children...she'll be compelled to pause and reevaluate her feelings about you. It's got to be real Charlie...You've got to change your way of thinking; your life course has to change. Start getting a hold on managing those finances too; that's major. I think your wife is afraid and anxious because you're not leading; she's drifting and feels she has to take care of things herself...most women want to be the "co pilot". Conversations with my wife have revealed her frame of mind during my transformation/self improvement; the one word that she said that stuck in my mind was she was afraid. You've been on here a while; and you're still letting circumstances push you around. Start forging your own path...develop a vision for you and your family.
If you've read any of my thread "She Said W/A Man I Don't Love" You'll know that we have a lot in common. You can overcome and be the best Father and Husband you can be for your family. Your unhappy marriage can be used as the catalyst to begin a life changing journey Charlie, I'm still in the midst of mine. It's like night and day man.
You've got some great people on TAM to talk to and help you; everyone here was/is instrumental in the progress of my marriage and life for that matter; but You have to examine all the little details of your marriage that you can't possibly express to us and make your own decisions on what you're going to do. Get to it man! Don't stop loving your wife. Be confident, calm, patient and friendly with all your dealings with her. Take care of yourself and know that you can not control her actions, only yours. I had a clear mission and goal to save our marriage and part of achieving it was recognizing that I had to be willing to lose it. You'll understand when you really grab hold of the concepts taught in NNMNG and MMSLP. Be willing to let go man; at this point it could go either way.
I think we have very similar personalities so I'm passionate about how you progress through this transitional period of your life.
I'm praying for you and your family Charlie. It's going to be alright man...whatever happens.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

charlieg said:


> I just don't want to blow it by me moving in and not giving her space. I think we have about 2 weeks. The house is in her name only. But I think it would be a civil matter to get me out if I moved in. Starting 180. If she wants me to go out tonight with her what should I do. If not I might take kids to movies, I am not sitting at home while she has fun.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Act first. Tell her you're going out. If she says "I want to go," you tell her when to be ready and then you take her somewhere. You don't give her the option of saying where you're taking her. You plan and execute the entire evening. She's just along for the ride, by her choice.

If she doesn't take the bait, don't tell her any plans and you go ahead with kid's night.

If she asks where you're going, tell her it's a state secret.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

Thanks Bagdon. Just wondering what most here think I should do about her and kids moving into new house without me? It is in her name only, of course I am having to get it ready. Should I say that I am moving in and if she needs space she can go to her mothers or file for divorce or work on marraige. If divorce I move back to Florida and start over.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

charlieg said:


> Thanks Bagdon. Just wondering what most here think I should do about her and kids moving into new house without me? It is in her name only, of course I am having to get it ready. Should I say that I am moving in and if she needs space she can go to her mothers or file for divorce or work on marraige. If divorce I move back to Florida and start over.


Is your state community property?

OK, you're in NY, but you're from FLA, so the house was bought from joint funds. You need to see an attorney.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

charlieg said:


> Thanks Bagdon. Just wondering what most here think I should do about her and kids moving into new house without me? It is in her name only, of course I am having to get it ready. Should I say that I am moving in and if she needs space she can go to her mothers or file for divorce or work on marraige. If divorce I move back to Florida and start over.


Do *you* want your marriage to survive and thrive? Do *you* love your wife and sons? Do *you* really want your family to be together? This could be an opportunity for you to fight for your family. Don't think about what she wants right now because IMO those vows you made when you married give you the authority to do what you think is best for your family. She's reacting to you outside of the contract/covenant of marriage. You've got to decide...the details of how to do that are important but not as important as knowing what you're trying to achieve.

I don't know man, say you've decided you're not going back to Florida without your family; move in; don't move in... what ever it takes to move toward your objective. This is *YOUR* family; *YOU* are the husband and the father.

I remember when a lady promised to give some furniture to my wife for helping her with some legal work. My wife asked me to pick up and store the furniture. At the time I knew she was planing to leave me and this furniture would be used as a step toward her planned "escape". I refused to move all the stuff she was looking to get. My wife couldn't protest without giving away her intentions; I was in the middle of implementing the 180 and learning how to respect and take care of myself. 

I'm not saying she'll be happy with what you decide...It's on you man, not her. Don't be a chump and help her leave you for another man. Win or lose you've got to give it your all. She'll respect you for it, but more importantly you'll respect and value yourself for doing what you believe is right. I didn't say it *IS* right; it's what you believe is right and best for your family. It's not done to be spiteful but in the spirit of love. Search for what you believe in man! 

Don't be afraid of making mistakes and changing your mind about decisions you make; it's a part of you growing your ability to be assertive. I believe my wife is in a frame of mind to follow me right or wrong right now...she's just happy I'm leading in the spirit of love.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

I today after work I went golfing with one of her workmates. After we were done I asked if she wanted to go out. She said that she was going to a friends house who was in from out of town. This is true. But I ended up having o go home because kids were scared to be alone. What happens if I move back to florida. This is not my wife. She would not do this.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

charlieg said:


> I today after work I went golfing with one of her workmates. After we were done I asked if she wanted to go out. .


You were advised not to do that. Why did you let her take the initiative on the nocturnal activities?



charlieg said:


> She said that she was going to a friends house who was in from out of town. This is true.


How do you know this is true? How do you know this is where she went? Did you tail her? Of course, I already know the answers to these questions.



charlieg said:


> But I ended up having o go home because kids were scared to be alone.


Science has made a new discovery: babysitters.



charlieg said:


> What happens if I move back to florida.


You'll get a better tan and you can watch the topless Euro women at the beach.



charlieg said:


> This is not my wife. She would not do this.


Riiiight.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Why is the house going to be in your wife's name only?


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

House is in her name only because first mortgage on florida home is in my name only and has two late payments. It was easier to put this in her name only to get mortgage. I passed her friends house on my way home, she was there and came home right after me. I really don't think she is doing anything with another man, I believe in her mind she is looking at the future and panicking if she doesn't change what's happened in the past she won't be happy in the future. I think she doesn't think she would be happy with me.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

This friend is a female?


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

Just had atalk. She doesn't want this to lead to divorce. She wants me to stand on my own two feet.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

charlieg said:


> Just had atalk. She doesn't want this to lead to divorce. She wants me to stand on my own two feet.


Like I said, I think she's afraid. She wants a man that's going to lead the family. She feels like she's carrying you and the children...three males; you've been lumped into the same category as your two sons. She loves you but she can't depend on you to take care of her needs.

I thought you were doing the 180; why are you talking to her about the relationship/divorce? 

Show your sons how a man can be down but not out. You're their example. They're watching.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

charlieg said:


> Just had atalk. She doesn't want this to lead to divorce. She wants me to stand on my own two feet.


So, she says she wants you to be the man, then be the man. Get her purse and get your balls back. Then, move in and take charge.

Serious question: what were your numbers on your most recent testosterone panel?


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

I'm on trt. I am a little high right now. Doc has me adjusting down. Never felt the zest for life on trt that most feel. Erections are great but unnessasary now. She wants to separate from me financially. I live beyond my means. I have to get ahold of my financial future.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

I'm on trt. I am a little high right now. Doc has me adjusting down. Never felt the zest for life on trt that most feel. Erections are great but unnessasary now. She wants to separate from me financially. I live beyond my means. I have to get ahold of my financial future.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Good. You have recognized and targeted an area of your life to improve.(finances) Being financially responsible is crucial. Working on that will move some of the emotional distractions to the back of your mind. One day at a time.... Steady and determined; you're doing this for your life and future. (Women are attracted to men handling their own business)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

I have negotiated a large reduction in my rent at existing home and a reduction in my satellite bill. Will continue to cut to make it as easy on myself financially. We still don't have a closing date for her home. Kids still don't know. We still sleep in same bed but I end up being the one close to her when we wake. We have no issues except for when we talk about us. And she obviously doesn't want to be intimate.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

You're doing Good Charlie. Stay on top of those details, work out, get proper sleep, do some things that you like to do; take care of yourself. Remember, everything you do from this point is for your self improvement and done in the spirit of love. She's going to start noticing changes in you but she won't believe they're real until your actions are consistent. Follow the 180. You don't initiate any conversation about the relationship...you're moving forward with your life. I literally got up reciting to myself everyday, throughout the day, " I will be confident, calm, patient, peaceful and friendly" My insides were going through tornado-like upheaval. I did a lot of crying when I was alone but don't let her see that part. Pull yourself together and only show her: (confident, calm, peaceful, patient, & friendly). Everyday won't be perfect and you will probably make some mistakes along the way. You will feel better about yourself as time passes. Use this forum to vent too... It helps. Oh, my wife was the same way in bed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

Well she is closing on the new house this week. So I guess that will mean we move her and kids in this weekend. Which also means kids find out this week. The 180 is extremely hard for me and I have failed a couple times but know its the right thing for me. This situation almost cost me my job last week, won't be getting a raise anytime soon. It sucks that I moved my family 1600 miles from anyone I knew besides her family and friends. I work 45 mins away from home which makes it even harder to make friends in this town. I am in a very bad situation and have to make some changes.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Hey Charlie, 

Don't be offended at my questions. I ask because we can't see everything in a situation through a few pages of text. You mentioned drinking in your relationship. How much drinking or substance use is there?


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

That was my insecurities and immaturity coming out. She only drinks when she goes out with friends. She hasn't in three weeks and won't for another 4 which is a ogtoborfest event. Sorry, but most of these issues are mine and probably some stim from her ea last year. Which didn't amount to much except screw me up and wake her up to my issues.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Not just her use. What about you, Charlie? Do you? 


How do you keep yourself? Do you try to look well groomed? Clothes, hair cut? Do others complement you?

How's you health too? Do you exercise and keep your weight in check?


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

No I only drink when she does if I go out with her. We are not big drinkers. I tried using that as an excuse. Me and youngest son are heading off to church. I think she thought about going. We never went much and it was my responsibility as the husband to be the spiritual leader in the family. Hell, just the leader. Not her.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

*Re: Re: Losing my wife*



charlieg said:


> No I only drink when she does if I go out with her. We are not big drinkers. I tried using that as an excuse. Me and youngest son are heading off to church. I think she thought about going. We never went much and it was my responsibility as the husband to be the spiritual leader in the family. Hell, just the leader. Not her.


Good, ttyl


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

New York is a equitable distribution state. I am thinking of moving in dispite her not wanting me to. I talked to a lawyer and he told me she could call the sheriff but if I was not abusive it would be a civil issue. Her mother is the one planting this seed. The way I see it if she needs space from me shouldn't she go to her moms house for awhile. The **** hits the fan this week. I need to make a stand but don't want to lose my family.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

charlieg said:


> Well she is closing on the new house this week. So I guess that will mean we move her and kids in this weekend. Which also means kids find out this week. The 180 is extremely hard for me and I have failed a couple times but know its the right thing for me. *This situation almost cost me my job last week, won't be getting a raise anytime soon.* It sucks that I moved my family 1600 miles from anyone I knew besides her family and friends. I work 45 mins away from home which makes it even harder to make friends in this town. I am in a very bad situation and have to make some changes.


I know what you mean. The turmoil going on in my marriage was definitely negatively affecting my job. I was basically just going through the motions at work everyday. I also drive 45 min/hour to work. 

I believe If you stay committed to doing the 180 You'll get yourself in a good emotional state of mind. Then you can schedule a meeting with your supervisor and level with him/her on what's going on without falling apart in front of them. (you don't have to share all the details) Let the supervisor know that you are aware of your current lack of performance and you are working on it through this turbulent time in your life. My supervisor appreciated me taking time to sort of put him "in the loop" so to say. He thought it was courageous of me and commended me for taking the steps I was taking to better my life and marriage and for acknowledging my short comings at the job.

Are you reading any of the suggested books? For you, I would recommend you concentrate on reading NNMNG and MMSLP...just those two for now. Self improvement I think should be your goal. Take care of yourself Charlie; Don't worry about your wife, trust me, she is watching. Just concentrate on being the best You that you can be. It will pay off in many ways.

My wife and I are doing very well ... especially now that I carry myself in a way that is not weak, needy or clingy. At the same time, I'm compassionate to her and her feelings; I know she feels wanted by me. It's got to be real though. Work on yourself and fight for your family Charlie.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Sounds like good advice. Who doesn't need to improve themselves in these ways. If you do it, you'll be better at your job. The separation will lead to divorce in the long run, but since your wife has drawn a line the sand, it is an opportunity to 180. The key is dating. Separation is the boundary for dating, unless you clearly state otherwise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

So I think I might move into new house. It's ours by law no matter who's name is on it. If she wants space from me she can go to her moms. Or we can get some counsling. She needs to talk to someone. She tells me her friend told her the first ten years of her marriage were awful until she stood up for herself. Now it's great. Well how about us, she is standing up for herself so let's work on this. I don't want to f this up but I have to move into this house for my sons, legal reasons and to be the man of the house.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Not just the man of the house, Charlie. Father, mentor and example to your sons. Husband, friend and lover to her. Supporter to them, so they can flourish in the loving environment you can create. That's what she wants. Isn't it what you want too?

Remember a leader looks out for his charges and takes good care of them.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you read the two books below. Mmslp is to show you what your relationship should be like and has a Map plan to follow.

You abused your wife for years, are you seeing a counselor?


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

Which 2 books
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

See chaperals post above you. See them in his links at the bottom of the post.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

Can't see them on my iPhone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

I own married man sex life primer, what's the other. I am waiting on love must be tough by James Dobson. I'm going to have to be tough if I move in this weekend. She is really looking forward to a break for space
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

charlieg said:


> I own married man sex life primer, what's the other. I am waiting on love must be tough by James Dobson. I'm going to have to be tough *if* I move in this weekend. She is really looking forward to a break for space
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*If*? I thought you decided you were moving in. Stop thinking so hard about what she wants...she's standing up for herself, You stand up for you, her and your family.

If you're really serious about changing your life for the better you've got to realize that the relationship between you and your wife may have to feel worse before it turns, and it will turn. 

Through my process of self improvement I decided that my wife did not have to love me at that time. I would love her by becoming the best me I could be and doing those things I believed were best for US. She'll probably fight, kick and scream about it but she'll appreciate your strength and resolve and probably wind up loving you that much more for loving her when she was "unlovable". Just the thought of my wife not loving me hurt like hell and I cried about it many a day but she didn't see it...confident, calm, patient, peaceful & friendly.

I think most women are very intuitive Charlie and they want a man that won't crumble under the pressure that they bring. She'll feel safe knowing that you can weather the storm.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

Thank you bagdon
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

I don't feel vey confident right now. All jumbled up inside. Gotta keep confident on the outside
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Women want strong men. They don't want men who give in and move out just because they are told to. That is an epic Sh*t Test Failure.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

turnera said:


> Women want strong men. They don't want men who give in and move out just because they are told to. That is an epic Sh*t Test Failure.


Post of the month so far.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

charlieg said:


> I don't feel vey confident right now. All jumbled up inside. Gotta keep confident on the outside
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know man, your insides are a mess. So were mine. Right now it's not about _feeling_ confident. Your actions do your talking and expressing. The things you do are what will speak clearly to your wife and family. 

You don't even have to have any coherent explanation for what you do. Just start doing what you feel is best. You start _feeling_ confident after you do stuff...crazy isn't it! Part of that is doing things you're not comfortable doing. You may be surprised by her reaction and you'll probably be surprised how natural it will feel as you carry on. 

She's just a woman Charlie, just like you're just a man.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Well said Bagdon


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

Okay reading mmsl and doing 180. Can someone give me a list of things I can present to her when the **** hits the fan and we move into new house together. I would like to have Allan worked out for us to work on since I am going to be leading now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

A list of things to say? Or some other list? 

I made a commitment to my wife and my family. I will not abandon that commitment.

You want out of the marriage, not me. If you're not happy, YOU can leave. I'm paying for this house, too, so I'm not leaving.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

A plan of action for us to get our marriage back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, it sounds like she doesn't WANT to get your marriage back, so you'd have a hard sell telling her how to DO it. Wouldn't you? I would just do 180, act as though you're staying married unless she forces the issue, read HNHN and figure out her ENs and LBs, and start making positive changes.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Remember, You can only control your actions not hers or anyone else's. 
You can handle whatever happens...You can handle whatever happens...You can handle whatever happens.

If you're doing the 180 it's not a list of things that require both of you to "work on". You can invite her to join you on a list of things you've decided to do. She can make suggestions for you to consider altering but overall it's something that You've decided will happen. You're leading in the spirit of love remember. 

I started out with a list of financial actions that I wrote out on flash cards and let her know what & when I would be implementing some changes that would affect our family.(for the better) 

Maybe you can use finances and logistics to develop an action plan for your family.

You're not to initiate any conversation about your relationship or the marriage.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

Last night we had dinner with her cousin and his wife. They are young and have a baby. He has lost his job because of a work place affair. His wife does not know. We dropped his wife of and went to a bar to have a drink and talk. They look up to us. He starts to complain about all that she does to annoy him and make him feel unwanted and how he tells her and she knows what she is doing but won't stop. My wife then says what do you think of someone who would do that for a decade to their spouse referring to me. It seems like there is an opportunity for me to save this sometimes and others when she has given up. She does allow me to cuddle and hold her while in bed but will not return any affection. Guess I will keep up 180. I know when the day comes to move and I move my stuff in it will come to a head.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Yes, you need to be in the new house because it is clearly your wife's method of carrying out a separation that will lead to divorce that includes a property settlement. Furthermore, this method makes separation from your children seem like something normal to which you agree.

It must be very frustrating to have physical contact with your wife in bed but not sex to affirm your relationship. She doesn't forbid you to hug her... perhaps it makes you seem needy, one of the factors that has cause a decline in her attraction towards you.

When the move to the new house takes place you cannot have an emotional confrontation. You must steel yourself to defuse her anger.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

This morning my wife tells me she is closing tomorrow. She says she hasn't set any utilities up so I take the initive and transfer services. Told her I would be moving in and she went crazy. Calmly Tdg her I was taking charge. She says she bought a house to get away from me but that is not how this house purchase started. She says she wants way from and I said she should go stay with her mom, which she didn't like to hear. She says she is contacting a lawyer today. Will have to see but don't think they can keep me out or let her take kids away come me. So I asked if she wanted a divorces and she said she wanted to get away from me I'm the problem. She did mention she is afraid of me which was a shock. I have never hit her but she has hit me weeks ago. She might use fear to keep me out of new home. I don't have money but may have to seek legal advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

She wants a divorce but doesn't have the courage to say so.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

Yea I'm starting to realize this. Wow can't believe this. I've been so dumb for so long. It has caught up to me. This is all my doing but now I have to fix me. It seems I'm the only one hurting even though I know she is to just in a different way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I forget: Have you read His Needs Her Needs?


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Charlie, I had asked you a few questions earlier in the thread, about what you are doing or did to improve yourself. You didn't answer. 

What have you done, that your wife can see self improvement in you? What have you done so she and the boys can feel safer around you? What have you done to so they can accept you as the leader of this marriage? 

You say don't have any money. Are you working? How much do you contribute to the support of your family? How is your wife paying for the new house?

Are you going to counseling? Have you enrolled in anger management? Did you finish NMMNG? Like Tunera asked, did you finish HNHN and Love Busters?

I can't say if it's too late or not for your marriage, since you've pushed it so far over the line. I can say it's past time to start fixing you or you'll have no chance.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And get a VAR and keep it in your pocket, so she can't fake a claim of abuse.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

I have finished atols book. Will have to buy his needs her needs. I have always been the largest contributed as far as money goes but now I make less than her up here. Who makes more isn't the factor. I M trying to improve and over the last year she says I have improved but haven't also. I had2 instances where I let her down. One was basically telling her I couldn't affir a piece of jewelry which she took as not wanting to put in extra hours for her. The other one I don't remember and she didn't care anyway. I am manning up. If she pushes divorce I eill let her. I can't stop her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Jewelry? Just a symbolic pretext. If she demands a divorce, then your should set about splitting your assets. The house is half yours. You have to make sure you are 50% custory dad if you are one. Don't let her have you being a weekend dad and paying for it if want to be active in their lives.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

I'll read between the lines. She can support herself now and you haven't gone to counseling. Not good. 

You're focused on how she is reacting instead of just improving you. That will not work. 

Wish you and your family well. 

Good luck


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

We now split our finances and we split all bills down the middle. This is something she started because she always managed the bills she is a bookkeeper and an accountant so she took that responsibility in the beginning of our marriage. Over the years we have had money issues they've always been my fault I made us by a swimming pool I made us buy an expensive car I was always blame for the money issues even though she handled the money. Now I'm the one at fault and it's my finances that are bothering her she doesn't want to be tied to me because I'm responsible for money
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

charlieg said:


> This morning my wife tells me she is closing tomorrow. She says she hasn't set any utilities up so I take the initive and transfer services. Told her I would be moving in and she went crazy. Calmly Tdg her I was taking charge. She says she bought a house to get away from me but that is not how this house purchase started. She says she wants way from and I said she should go stay with her mom, which she didn't like to hear. She says she is contacting a lawyer today. Will have to see but don't think they can keep me out or let her take kids away come me. So I asked if she wanted a divorces and she said she wanted to get away from me I'm the problem. She did mention she is afraid of me which was a shock. I have never hit her but she has hit me weeks ago. She might use fear to keep me out of new home. I don't have money but may have to seek legal advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


YES! Good action. Remember, all interaction with your wife is...Confident, Calm, Patient, Peaceful and Friendly. You should not be initiating any conversation about divorce/relationship/marriage. You're moving forward with your life. She can choose to join you as you lead your family or something else; that's up to her. You are doing what you believe is the best for you and your family. Right?

This whole thing about being afraid of you probably has to do with the unreciprocated cuddling. I wouldn't dwell on that too much; you don't require or need her affection right now. Just stay steady and determined while she's in this "hissy fit". Take care of yourself; work out, eat right, get proper sleep. Stay focused on your financial goals and objectives. Do some online research about your legal options and reach out to some other TAM members who may have some insight into legal matters.



charlieg said:


> Last night we had dinner with her cousin and his wife. They are young and have a baby. He has lost his job because of a work place affair. His wife does not know. We dropped his wife of and went to a bar to have a drink and talk. *They look up to us*. He starts to complain about all that she does to annoy him and make him feel unwanted and how he tells her and she knows what she is doing but won't stop. My wife then says what do you think of someone who would do that for a decade to their spouse referring to me. It seems like there is an opportunity for me to save this sometimes and others when she has given up. *She does allow me to cuddle and hold her while in bed but will not return any affection.* Guess I will keep up 180. I know when the day comes to move and I move my stuff in it will come to a head.


Cuddling with her and she's not responding is just like bad sex. It's like forcing your affection on someone that doesn't want it. She's tolerating it and it's disrespectful to you. It enforces her impression of you as clingy and needy. Stop doing that. (I use to do the same thing)

Stick to the real 180 Charlie, in time, if you're persistent, determined and consistent with your actions and your life-changes, things will turn to balance and stability for you and your family. It will get better man.

My family attended church services last night and We got home late. It had been a long day as we were all up and out of the house sense 5:30am; we got home around 10:30pm. We were all burned out for the day. My wife entered our bedroom and sprawled out on the bed in exhaustion then said to me "If I weren't so tired I'd ride you like a merry-go-round tonight." 

I wasn't even instigating sex Charlie!

Your wife won't be able to resist her husband when you become real with your changes of being a better man.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Don't listen to anything she says. If she's cheating, everything she says will be a lie to get rid of you. If she's not cheating, she has convinced herself you're the problem and nothing she says will be the real truth. Just keep working on YOUR issues, make yourself a better person, focus on learning and growing and manning up. 

Note that manning up does NOT mean being rude or mean - just calmly, confidently stating what you know you deserve, like respect or equal treatment.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Have you responded to Anchorwatch's questions? 

He's a great resource of encouragement and support. He was instrumental in my life-course changes. 

We want to help you and your family.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

charlieg said:


> She did mention she is afraid of me which was a shock.


She's been talking to her lawyer. Building a case (where there really isn't one) so she can get in front of a family court judge and get a restraining order to keep you out of the house. 

She doesn't want to be with you anymore charlie.

It's time to stop letting her call the shots, accept the reality of the situation and start planning for life on your own.

While you're doing that, protect yourself from a bogus restraining order by doing some of the things mentioned on this thread. 

It's very easy for a woman to convince a judge that she's "in danger", the burden of proof is on you to show it's all a fabrication. 



charlieg said:


> She does allow me to cuddle and hold her while in bed but will not return any affection.


This is so incredibly pathetic and weak. Put yourself in her shoes for a minute. She has no attraction for you, she doesn't want to be with you, and here you are begging for scraps of attention and she doesn't even acknowledge you. If you do nothing else, at least realize how bad this is on so many levels and never do it again. 

I wouldn't be surprised if she turns your pathetic coddling into attempted rape when she's putting together that restraining order.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

She has logged on to my Facebook account now. I just received an email telling me. I told her my password because I have nothing to hide.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Charlie be prepped for the worst. Sorry.
My spidey senses are going crazy. The FB thing only increased it.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Charlie be prepped for the worst. Sorry.
> My spidey senses are going crazy. The FB thing only increased it.


What do the spidey senses tell you about the FB thing? What's she looking for?


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

charlieg said:


> She has logged on to my Facebook account now. I just received an email telling me. I told her my password because I have nothing to hide.


Once she has your FB password she can post and contact other people as if she was you. There's no way that you could defend that.

Giving your wife your password is like handing a loaded gun to the enemy on the other side of the trench while you wave the white flag.

You should be firming up your defences and covering your own ass, not laying on the floor with your belly up while she's wielding a butcher's knife. 

Get smarter. 

FAST.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Maybe She's trying to find out who's helping you Man up.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

I think you've definitely rattled her world and she's reacting to your actions now. 
Keep the initiative and forge your path...you're doing the driving now and not reacting to her. Continue to project, Confident, Calm, Patient, Peaceful and Friendly.

It may get worse before it gets better Charlie. Stay the course...Have you bought into the idea of living successful and happy without her yet? You need to. You can only control your actions, You can handle whatever happens. 

All this will be just a technique to win her back and fade shortly after if you don't unhook yourself from this relationship. It's gotta be real.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

This sort of happened last December and then she just came back into the relationship and as she states faked it to try to fall back in love. Between then and now she has told me she was so mean to me and she shouldn't have done that. I said it was all my fault. I really think this has something to do with hormones. But even so that doesn't correct my issues. My problem with me being successful out of this marriage would mean I would have to move back to Florida where I can earn more money but I would not be with my boys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Generically what do you do Charlie?
Generically where are you in NY?

FB... Im wondering if she is looking "for your affair"
and projecting. Sorry I wish it would go away but my gut is saying there is something there just very very underground.

For 99% of the population. Florida is an AWFUL place to make money. Wages are very very low. I knew a degreed EE working for 36K. I lived in Lakeland for 1.5 years. Glad I did it. Not sure I would want to go back.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You need to find out what's going on every Thurs. Night. Put a var in her car.

Were you having trouble before moving from Fla?

Do you ever go out with her and her friends?

Find a baby sitter and surprise her on Thur night .


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm a little lost on your work situation too. How are you in NY all this time, buying a home but you're employed in FL???

Please clarify.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

I am an electronics technician so security, fire alarm , access control, CCTV etc... I am on the Canadian border north of Syracuse. This is where she is from. I can make a lot more in Florida but this is where she wants to live so we moved here. The Thursday night thing is over with the summer. We did go out this summer. We didn't really have problems in florida but I haven't been husband of the year ever.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

I have scheduled an appt for myself on Monday to see a recommended counsler. She said my wife could come but I doubt she will. This will have to be out of pocket so 80 an hour.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

charlieg said:


> I have scheduled an appt for myself on Monday to see a recommended counsler. She said my wife could come but I doubt she will. This will have to be out of pocket so 80 an hour.


Yeah, I did IC for a bit when I started. $65/hr. I went twice a month for about two months. Truthfully, I got a lot more valuable help and advice from TAM members.
_Posted via Mobile Device_ I have a lot of support around me though. You're pretty much by yourself so I think he or she will be worth the time and money for you.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

charlieg said:


> This sort of happened last December and then she just came back into the relationship and as she states faked it to try to fall back in love. Between then and now she has told me she was so mean to me and she shouldn't have done that. I said it was all my fault. I really think this has something to do with hormones. But even so that doesn't correct my issues. *My problem with me being successful out of this marriage would mean I would have to move back to Florida where I can earn more money but I would not be with my boys.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know all the details, but do you have to earn more money in FL or just live within your means in NY to be successful outside of your marriage? Fighting for your family may involve thinking outside the box. Fighting for your family may require you letting go of your wife. I think you will be a much better Father to your sons when you're the best YOU that you can be. Your wife may not stay even after you've regained authority within yourself. You can only control your actions....You must see that your success shouldn't be tied to your wife if she's going to submit to your leadership. You can't manipulate or force that from her...she has to want to do it... for balance, love and stability to thrive in your family.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

She spoke tonight about the closing tomorrow and how she will ask the lawyer about me owning the house also. She asked me how I was going to get a key. Then she told me I was backing her into a corner. She left the bed grabbed a blanket and went to the couh. I woke up and asked if she was cold. She said not o ever ask her another f'ing question again.. She did also say a dog can only be kicked so many times. I don't think she wants to work on us. I told her we have never both worked on our marriage together and we should at least try to which she said I don't want to. But she is pissed right now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

We expected that. She's not used to you stepping outside her box for you. Quick changes beget strong emotions.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

charlieg said:


> This sort of happened last December and then she just came back into the relationship and as she states faked it to try to fall back in love. Between then and now she has told me she was so mean to me and she shouldn't have done that. I said it was all my fault. I really think this has something to do with hormones. But even so that doesn't correct my issues. *My problem with me being successful out of this marriage would mean I would have to move back to Florida where I can earn more money but I would not be with my boys.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a key statement. Re-write it:



> I know that to be successful at work here I have to perform at a higher level than in Florida. I am having fun becoming a Northerner.


Do mental planning on how you are going to execute your work efficiently. Figure out how to be an above average performer. If your job is service related, make sure you are good at that in a business like way. Be polite, smile, no needy chit chat... make sure all follow up stuff is written down and executed.



> My boys are adapting well to this new area and I am going to be here for them, no matter what. I am going to be such a positive presence in their lives that it puts a smile on my wife's face.


If you end up separated, by being the new Charlie, you may turn things around, but if you do not, at least you will be in better shape for a new relationship.

Recast all the negative thinking into positive. Some of it may seem unreal, but every time a coach or teacher starts with a bunch of kids who are having trouble or behind, he cannot say these kids will never make it. He has to try and believe in them.

Bagdon has adopted this attitude. We can learn from him.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

From his description he is somewhere near Watertown NY.  He is in an area where there is likely more moose than people.

Charlie correct me if Im wrong but its not that it is northern limiting job prospects. It is low population?


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

charlieg said:


> She spoke tonight about the closing tomorrow and how she will ask the lawyer about me owning the house also. She asked me how I was going to get a key. Then she told me I was backing her into a corner. She left the bed grabbed a blanket and went to the couh. I woke up and asked if she was cold. She said not o ever ask her another f'ing question again.. She did also say a dog can only be kicked so many times. I don't think she wants to work on us. I told her we have never both worked on our marriage together and we should at least try to which she said I don't want to. But she is pissed right now.


This is the "kicking and screaming" part. Remember to stay confident, calm, patient, peaceful and friendly when you deal with her.

Charlie...That was good when she left the bed. Stop *talking* to her about working on the marriage! You have not settled in your spirit the essence of what you are doing. It's not real to you yet and it won't be real to her. She's going to fight you just as hard as you keep running behind her. Stop running behind her. It's good that you recognize she's "pissed". 

I think you're letting 10/15 years of passed mistakes get in the way of you moving forward. I think you're letting your own guilt hinder your efforts to be a better man today. You've got to work on not letting the past dirty up the new and improved you. Accept the fact that you screwed up. Forgive yourself and move forward with your life Charlie.

That's what I did. When my wife realized that I was done apologizing and sincerely working on myself she began to soften her attitude toward me and I believe she started respecting the person I was developing.

Your wife doesn't have to stay with you Charlie. All you're doing is presenting to her the possibility of being with a person like you..(The best you that you can be)
When it becomes real to you, you're going to have to decide if you really want to be with her. She's not perfect either.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

Low population and low job outlook. Here it's about state jobs and they are hard to come by. Always keeping my eyes open. Trying to get word out for side work. Part time is hard since u never know exactly when my day will be over and I'm on rotating on call.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Thought so. Hes stranded.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

You said you would be there for your boys no matter what. 

That sounds to me like a part of what's really important to you. Your vision of what you want your life to look like, how you want your life to be will guide your decisions. You described some of it..."I'm going to be such a positive presence in their lives it puts a smile on my wife's face". 

Use that to guide what you do about earning a living and providing for yourself and your family. Today's economy isn't the greatest and a lot of us have been screwed by the fall of the housing market.

My wife was/is "stranded" with me. She wanted out but couldn't go anywhere. I used that to patiently work on myself. When you really start working on yourself you'll feel more peace than turbulence inside because of how focused you are.

Me, my wife and kids are still living in my mom's house right now but we're at peace because she knows we're working toward our own home. She has settled into an active role as my "teammate" and allowing me to lead us to what we both want for our family.

Like I said, once you really get focused on your self improvement, you'll have clear gut feelings of your wife's character as well. You won't worry about "screwing things up" between you.

Stay the course Charlie....steady and determined. You're inching toward real love and balance for your life and your family. A journey.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Maybe you could get a grant or a loan and go back to school to get a managerial position in technology. Don't know about New York, but New Jersey has a lot of tech companies.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

The only tech up there is GE and the power companies. He's in the middle of nowhere. They speak French in the nearest metropolitan city and that's in another country. 

He's right about civil service jobs though. Charlie start looking for fed, state and municipal jobs to apply to. Take the test to qualify for them too. look on all the government web sites. Get some certifications at the local colleges, that may help you out too. Try the power , phone and cable companies too. 

There is so much to do, it can be over whelming, but you just have to start. One foot in front of the other. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

https://www.usajobs.gov/


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

I have resumes in the usajobs system and three at the moment are being reviewed. Had an interview 6 months ago for fed job but didn't get it. 

After work today she told me we can start moving Monday! I'm a bit suspicious now. Staying the course but damn it's a stomach turner right now.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Turn. Anchor is right. He is very far from anything. As i said. Stranded.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

In the packet of paperwork she signed at closin is a pamphlet for services that that law office deals with. The pamphlet was bent to the page on marriage services and she did seem a bit upbeat. If this ends up being a midlife crises or menopause, am I screwing up by not giving her space.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

My ultimate goal is to keep my family whole.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You have Bagdon as a model


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

charlieg said:


> In the packet of paperwork she signed at closin is a pamphlet for services that that law office deals with. The pamphlet was bent to the page on marriage services and she did seem a bit upbeat. If this ends up being a midlife crises or menopause, am I screwing up by not giving her space.


What do you mean you're not giving her space? If you're doing the 180 you're giving her all the space she needs. You're not rolling over to her wishes of moving into a separate house without her husband which is a potentially family-breaking action.

She can continue to sleep on the couch if she wants; If you're in the bed together, you're just there to get your proper rest for the next day of business and self improvement. No more cuddling initiated by you.

My wife *use to* sleep on top of the covers in our bed just to keep me from touching her. (check out my last post on my thread today)

You're doing what you believe you have to do to Keep your family together. Right? One day at a time. Confident, Calm, Patient, Peaceful and Friendly.

I'm praying for you Charlie. Keep it up. Stay the course.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Have you looked here? 

New York State | Citizen Guide

Check your county civil service/labor relations web site too...


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Okay Charlie, It's been a week of no communication on TAM from you....something's happening. 

Stay the course. Take care of yourself and your business.

Just give us a quick thumbs up when you get a chance.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

Told her I was moving in and two days later she broke down. We talked and I told her I didn't want to hurt her anymore and that she could go alone to new house. She said only a few weeks. She then said she wanted to start going to church as a family. We started to move her in last weekend and she should be sleeping there by this weekend with the kids. She is saying she wants us to work out and we will be following marriage builders site together. We have filled out his needs her needs questionair. I don't know where it will go from here. I am a mess but am staying strong. Kids will find out this week and Im sure I will crumble. Work is going awful so Im not sure my outlook on this whole move up north.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Kids will find out what?


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

That I won't be moving to new house
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

"I just need a few weeks" is cheater speak for 'I need space to carry on my affair.' You know that, right?

You're being a wuss. You 'tried' to stand up and she broke out the tears. So you backed off and gave her everything she wanted. Hell, you even HELPED her move into her new affair lair.

Good grief.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

What's your gut feeling about your wife Charlie? Until you wake up to the fact that you need to change, you're only delaying an inevitable end to the marriage. Like I say, you know all the fine details, however, the information that you are unfolding to me indicates that you have not bought into changing your life.

Not moving in when you told her that's what you were going to do probably makes you look very weak in her sight. It's probably not something she's consciously aware of...crying to get what she wants. But I think she may have a little less respect for you.

You have said that you want to keep your family together yet, IMO, your actions say otherwise. I've learned that a husband can't soothe or caress a wayward wife back into his arms. They don't see that as pursuing them, they see it as clingy and needy. You're making yourself undesired by her or any other.

I still don't think It's too late. You can't keep making mistakes of this magnitude though. This was a big one. you know all the subtle details of the relationship between you and your wife. I'm hopeful that another window of opportunity will present itself for you to follow through on "actions" to keep your family whole, living in love and prosperity. "Saying it" and "doing it" are not the same. I think you're going to have to accept that she probably pities you more than she loves you right now.

The next time she wants to get into a conversation about something that you're doing that's potentially moving you closer to your objective, pause before you start speaking your emotions. Take a second or two to think about what you want. You'll never soothe her into loving you Charlie...your change has to be real from within.

Yes, When you don't follow through on advice It's frustrating to all of us who have experienced something very close to what you're going through. We saw how close you were to a potentially positive turn in your life and marriage. We're pulling for you first Charlie...everything else will fall into place when you get yourself right.

Get up and start again.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Don't Give up Charlie. I'm still praying for you. Hope all is well...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Charlie,

Your situation is dark and lonely. Maybe your wife is cheating. Maybe she is on the hunt for your replacement.

Get your life in order. Be there for your kids. Exude confidence.

Many times when we find things going wrong we associate the problems with the place. Find things that are good about where you are living explore and learn about everything so that you are the expert.

1) Is there a cider mill. Now is autumn. Take your kid to see how it is pressed. They can take home a jug to the their mom's place, too. 

2) Museums, art, sports, music
Do as much as you can. If you are out with your kids doing stuff, you will meet people.

It is impossible to see how this separation can lead to reconciliation, this is your wife's path to divorce.


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## charlieg (Dec 19, 2012)

So wife moved to new house and kids went back and forth every couple days. Houses are only a block away from each other. Last Friday night she left her cousins waiting for a night together and blew them off because she got stuck with coworkers after work. She had made the plans with cousins. Next day she went to a festival with two of her best friends and there husbands. Sunday morning we meet for breakfast and church. She showed up early and said she wanted to spend the day with me. We did without kids at new house. She then told me she wanted us to all stay at new house. So I got enough for a couple days and moved in. Two days later she's asking me to go back because she is overwhelmed.. When I ask her why she gives me examples of things my 15 year old is doing or is leaving around the house. I had her start reading his needs her needs and she said she felt better after reading two chapters then today overwhelmed again. I am totally confused. She says she physically feels overwhelmed around me. Has anyone ever experienced this?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

charlieg said:


> She showed up early and said she wanted to spend the day with me.





charlieg said:


> She then told me she wanted us to all stay at new house.





charlieg said:


> Two days later she's asking me to go back because she is overwhelmed.


 She wants this. She wants that. She wanted to move "from Florida to norther ny where she is from", and justifies an EA because you had a rough time in adjusting to the move since you are form the South. Talk about an remorseful cheater. She gets what she wants and what you want does not matter. Stop being a doormat. She cannot love someone that she does not respect, and she does not respect you enough to care about meeting your needs. 

Like all cheaters, and having an EA is cheating, she is selfishly focusing only on what she wants. To rationalize cheating, cheaters hold their spouse to a standard of perfection that no one can achieve, and that they do not hold themselves to. No matter what you do, it will never be good enough, because she wants you to fail, so that she can blame shift her cheating onto you. She is a proven unremorseful cheater that has lost her moral compass, so stop letting her lead the way. 



charlieg said:


> I am totally confused. She says she physically feels overwhelmed around me. Has anyone ever experienced this?


 Do not be confused. All cheaters want space because it makes it easier to cheat. As for your question if "anyone ever experienced this?" The answer is yes. Read other threads and you will see that you wife's request for you to move out is very common among cheaters. She is following the cheaters script to a tee. Move in and claim you rights as a father and as a husband. If she does not want to live with you, tell her that it is then time for you to find someone that does and you want a divorce. If she lets you divorce her because she does not want to live with you, then your marraige is over anyways.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She wants something, but she probably has some fantasy about what it will feel like, and then real world sets in.

Pick a stance, and stick to it. Tell her if she kicks you out, it's out for good. That you have too much respect to waffle back and forth at her whim. That will make you more attractive.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Charlie, It's like you're totally ignoring the advice you're receiving from us...You need to realize that what you're sharing with us now sounds like you don't get it. If you don't catch on soon it will be too late to keep your family together; In fact I'm starting to think it may be better for YOU to not be with your family for a while. You're allowing yourself to be walked over. Your sons don't need to see that man. You're letting whatever disfunction she has flap you around like a flag.

Please go back and read all of the posts on this thread up to now and then respond with a statement to how you interpreted them as a whole. 

I'll be done talking with you after a while because I will have said all I can. (I won't stop praying for you) At some point you'll have to just get it and be the husband and father you can be. 
Come on! Get it together!


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Praying for you Charlie


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## Jennifer871 (Oct 26, 2013)

charlieg said:


> so wife moved to new house and kids went back and forth every couple days. Houses are only a block away from each other. Last friday night she left her cousins waiting for a night together and blew them off because she got stuck with coworkers after work. She had made the plans with cousins. Next day she went to a festival with two of her best friends and there husbands. Sunday morning we meet for breakfast and church. She showed up early and said she wanted to spend the day with me. We did without kids at new house. She then told me she wanted us to all stay at new house. So i got enough for a couple days and moved in. Two days later she's asking me to go back because she is overwhelmed.. When i ask her why she gives me examples of things my 15 year old is doing or is leaving around the house. I had her start reading his needs her needs and she said she felt better after reading two chapters then today overwhelmed again. I am totally confused. She says she physically feels overwhelmed around me. Has anyone ever experienced this?


180 180 180


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