# Husband ended affair, Other women shows up at our home to confront



## arandomlady

Hey everyone-I am giving an update on a post I put in about a month ago. The situation has escalated. The long and short of it . same old same suspected the husband was having an affair by a lot of text unexplained atm withdrawals and lying about whereabouts and time off work yada yada yada. Did the confront he denied. I did the plan b no contact started individual counseling. No attempts to reconcile. He lives out of town for work so already technically separated. I think the affair has been going on for about 6-8 months but I am just become aware. 

Even after the confrontation he still continued to contact her. I did not contact him. on a trip home this weekend through down the gauntlet and with the her or me and if its her then this is what needs to happen no divorce papers but drafted propsals... he refused to admit. the counselor said that before I can do that I have to be sure its is indeed an affair and to contact the other party to see what they say. I did they were shocked did not deny on the call just stammered ad hung up on me. then I texted apologizing if they felt ambushed but just wanted to know and that I don't have anything against her. No response but texting still occurred between her and my husband...

So my husband was shocked by my call and text to her because I am not the type to confront. I told him we are not married as long as this contact is going on. he ultimately ended with her last night and was pretty definitive as I approved the text before he sent it then he agreed to change his number

It didn't end there, the next morning she had been texting him and he had not responded. so she began threatening him, she ultimately showed up at my house 8am this morning!! and he actually let her in. Meanwhile I have called the police and the women is yelling for me to down and meet her!!! in my home!! She is making all kinds of threats saying where she is from who she knows etc... I refused to engage her and remained on the 3rd level of my home while she is at the front door on 1st level. It was surreal...im on the phone with dispatch telling them and they were like he let her in??? Granted she probably threatened to break the glass inlet of the door or something but I would have rather that so she could have been arrested...

So police say there is nothing I can do until she actually does a crime...meanwhile the husband is going back to work out of state and this person lives in town where I am!!! I was besides myself with anger, hurt and shame. its as if the woman wanted to see me so she could determine if he was proper in choosing me, wife of nearly 12 years over her fling for a 6mos or so. (probably my projection of the situation ) I did give her the satisfaction of my presence.

Anyway only the police he and she know about this as I am mortified. My community is probably thinking yeah another domestic situation... never called the police in my life... I feel trapped...


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## Allen_A

IT's best that you keep away from her. If a fight breaks out you both get hauled in.

I really have to question your husband's thinking in letting her IN.

:wtf:


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## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> IT's best that you keep away from her. If a fight breaks out you both get hauled in.
> 
> I really have to question your husband's thinking in letting her IN.
> 
> :wtf:


Uh yeah my thoughts exactly!! He was like she making a scene outside and could have damaged property...he didn't want her to get arrested she has children he was actually protecting her downstairs while I was up stairs on the phone with the police! She stated since I wanted to know what was going on she is here to respond... I guess be careful what you ask for indeed.


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## Allen_A

It's frequently the case that cheating men and cheating women will even protect the affair partner to the betrayer's detriment... been there myself. That's just more of the same old.. put effort into AP, screw over your wife. He's just repeating the same pattern.

What's the point in him changing his number if he's going to INVITE her into his HOME?

Cheaters have a really f'd up sense of loyalty.

It never occurred to him to protect YOU at any point.. just HER.

I dunno, that's a telling statement right there. He let her into not only your marriage, but now your HOME.

Changing his phone number really gets overshadowed by this choice of his. He just undid any repair work he's done so far.

Is OW married or anything? I wouldnt' call OW, I would have contacted her husband/boyfriend/parole officer.


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## 3putt

arandomlady said:


> Uh yeah my thoughts exactly!! He was like she making a scene outside and could have damaged property...he didn't want her to get arrested she has children he was actually protecting her downstairs while I was up stairs on the phone with the police!* She stated since I wanted to know what was going on she is here to respond*... I guess be careful what you ask for indeed.


Why did she say that? Is that something you said to her or is it something your WH said you said?


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## xakulax

arandomlady said:


> .
> 
> 
> It didn't end there, the next morning she had been texting him and he had not responded. so she began threatening him, she ultimately *showed up at my house 8am this morning!! and he actually let her in*. Meanwhile I have called the police and the women is yelling for me to down and meet her!!! in my home!! She is making all kinds of threats saying where she is from who she knows etc... I refused to engage her and remained on the 3rd level of my home while she is at the front door on 1st level. It was surreal...im on the phone with dispatch telling them and they were like he let her in??? Granted she probably threatened to break the glass inlet of the door or something but I would have rather that so she could have been arrested...



He let her in the house


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## xakulax

First your husband needs a swift kick to the *ball *for letting that [email protected]#t in your house second if she is that derange then I would get an order of peace put on her immediately this way if she shows up aging call the cops and watch them drag her crazy a$$ of to jail.



No that's not a typo any man who let the ow in his house post dday has one ball


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## Allen_A

Ya I agree, this husband is a real douche bag.

Getting cheated on is violating enough without having them terrorize you in your own home.

And here the **** head is opening door for her.

Sorry, that was just a real dumb ass move. I can't fathom how anyone could be that stupid or inconsiderate.

Your anxiety must have blown the roof off the house.

What an a$$.


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## happy as a clam

Wow... I am speechless.

Please be careful. She sounds about as stable as Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction.

You should be able to take out a restraining order or a civil protection order on her for the very fact that she showed up on your property and made threats to you. Never mind that your husband let her in, tell the police he opened the door and she pushed her way past him. It's your word against hers. Her behavior was outrageous and I believe a CPO is in order.

I certainly am not advocating lying to the police, but this is a very grey area. Perhaps if your husband really thinks about it, he was startled and couldn't stop her from entering as she pushed her way past. Who knows the way it really happened? There's two sides to every story.


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## arandomlady

Thanks for the responses. This is completely new territory for me as I have never been verbally accosted to this agree in my life especially for something like this…I had told him I was not going to fight for him and it literally almost came to that.
Allen_A- All of this occurred so quickly… we are talking like a couple hours from changing the number to her showing up. I have a very unique name on google the first thing that comes up is linked in and property records… FML
As far as letting her in…I suspect that in his mind leaving her outside was just going to escalate the situation though of course I argue that it exacerbated it. In his mind what do I have to worry about I the one with the gun am larger than her etc she was not threatening violence per se. His temperament is to try to be a nice guy but not realzing or understanding that he needs to worry about me and not her..Yes a grade A douche.
As far as her status, I just found out from my husband she is divorced with 3 children so the fact that she would leave her home Sunday morning and come to mine not knowing me or my own temperament ( I am a registered gun owner) is telling to me of how she is not thinking things through.

Xalulax and happyasaclam- the police is stating no protective order can be done until she takes action and shows up again which they are stating they doubt will happen. They were essentially blaming me because I contacted her in first place trying to find out what was going on with her and my husband since he wasn’t talking. She showed the police the 2 messages I sent which were innocuous but is tryng to play up she is the victim responding to me…well played I must say because they are considering her showing up to home unannounced as a response and its not a crime to crash visit someone..


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## harrybrown

Sorry that your H has messed up your relationship big time.

So is he still going NC with the OW? It does sound like he picked a real psycho! 

I do not know how you get over him letting her into your house, along with all the affair. 

I hope you are seeing an attorney in the near future. If your H becomes extremely remorseful, goes to counseling and gets the OW out of your life, maybe you could reconsider, but marriage is tough. I do not see getting over your hurt on this one.

Stay safe.


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## happy as a clam

arandomlady said:


> Xalulax and happyasaclam- the police is stating no protective order can be done until she takes action and shows up again which they are stating they doubt will happen. They were essentially blaming me...


The police are SO eff-ing helpful. They would rather wait until you are dead and THEN say she was a stalker, you should have had a restraining order, etc. My brother and my BIL are both cops, so I feel justified in saying (not trying to pick on anyone) that they can be jerks in situations such as yours.

Throw eggs on your front porch and front door, call the police and tell them you suspect it was her. That's what my cop-brother suggested.


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## Openminded

Yes, this unfortunately is the flip side of confronting the other party. You never know what they might do.


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## tdwal

That's why the NRA says the police are only minutes away when seconds count.


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## ne9907

Your husband did not end the affair.


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## clipclop2

He chose a nutter. Get a restraining order against her. 

Have your husband look up Dr. Shirley Turner and Andrew Bagby or watch Dear Zachary on Netflix and tell him to pray he didn't invite such a devil into your lives. Hope they used protection.

Take a very hard line. She went to your house. That is scary.


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## happy as a clam

clipclop2 said:


> He chose a nutter... Take a very hard line. She went to your house. That is scary.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## lisab0105

Wow, you have much more restraint than I would have. ***** would have been flat on her skanky @ss back if dared to come into my house.


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## lordmayhem

*Re: Re: Husband ended affair, Other women shows up at our home to confront*



arandomlady said:


> Hey everyone-I am giving an update on a post I put in about a month ago. The situation has escalated. The long and short of it . same old same suspected the husband was having an affair by a lot of text unexplained atm withdrawals and lying about whereabouts and time off work yada yada yada. Did the confront he denied. I did the plan b no contact started individual counseling. No attempts to reconcile. He lives out of town for work so already technically separated. I think the affair has been going on for about 6-8 months but I am just become aware.
> 
> Even after the confrontation he still continued to contact her. I did not contact him. on a trip home this weekend through down the gauntlet and with the her or me and if its her then this is what needs to happen no divorce papers but drafted propsals... he refused to admit. the counselor said that before I can do that I have to be sure its is indeed an affair and to contact the other party to see what they say. I did they were shocked did not deny on the call just stammered ad hung up on me. then I texted apologizing if they felt ambushed but just wanted to know and that I don't have anything against her. No response but texting still occurred between her and my husband...
> 
> So my husband was shocked by my call and text to her because I am not the type to confront. I told him we are not married as long as this contact is going on. he ultimately ended with her last night and was pretty definitive as I approved the text before he sent it then he agreed to change his number
> 
> It didn't end there, the next morning she had been texting him and he had not responded. so she began threatening him, she ultimately showed up at my house 8am this morning!! and he actually let her in. Meanwhile I have called the police and the women is yelling for me to down and meet her!!! in my home!! She is making all kinds of threats saying where she is from who she knows etc... I refused to engage her and remained on the 3rd level of my home while she is at the front door on 1st level. It was surreal...im on the phone with dispatch telling them and they were like he let her in??? Granted she probably threatened to break the glass inlet of the door or something but I would have rather that so she could have been arrested...
> 
> So police say there is nothing I can do until she actually does a crime...meanwhile the husband is going back to work out of state and this person lives in town where I am!!! I was besides myself with anger, hurt and shame. its as if the woman wanted to see me so she could determine if he was proper in choosing me, wife of nearly 12 years over her fling for a 6mos or so. (probably my projection of the situation ) I did give her the satisfaction of my presence.
> 
> Anyway only the police he and she know about this as I am mortified. My community is probably thinking yeah another domestic situation... never called the police in my life... I feel trapped...


I see trespassing and in my state, the threats would be 3rd degree assault. You can still file a report with the police department if nothing else other than to help get the protection order.

Personally, I would have told dispatch to send a cruiser there to investigate the disturbance.


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## arandomlady

HarryBrown- this all happened today. So we both changed our numbers and had agreed no further contact when the women came to the home. SO I supposed that meant she was challenging the no contact. As far as an attorney, I’m in a no fault community property state so not a lot of action can be taken in that regard
Openminded-Tuche 
Tdwal & Lisab0105- right on… however I didn’t want that kind of an escalation so I would not engage with her because actually seing her would have brought on a reptilian response
Ne9907- the appearance and her response is definitely there but his reaction leaves much to be desired so tbd indeed…
Clipclop2- will do, I agree that we wrestle not with flesh but with spirits or something like that. I am praying and mediating over the situation indeed.


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## arandomlady

lordmayhem said:


> I see trespassing and in my state, the threats would be 3rd degree assault. You can still file a report with the police department if nothing else other than to help get the protection order.
> 
> Personally, I would have told dispatch to send a cruiser there to investigate the disturbance.


 The police did come to my home and tooks statements but they wouldn't make a report as no crime is committed. the incident is under electronic record.


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## clipclop2

He is going to be feeling guilty. Use that to get him to sign whatever you need to get whatever you want that will make you feel more secure. You can change any agreement later. But for now, protect your assets and you'd family.


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## lordmayhem

I want to know exactly what your WH is doing to protect you from this bunny boiler.

Because I have my doubts about true remorse.


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## lordmayhem

arandomlady said:


> The police did come to my home and tooks statements but they wouldn't make a report as no crime is committed. the incident is under electronic record.


What country/state are you in?


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## illwill

You are rugsweeping. Why was it his choice to reconcile?


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## Thorburn

arandomlady said:


> The police did come to my home and tooks statements but they wouldn't make a report as no crime is committed. the incident is under electronic record.


Husband left her in so what really could the police do?

I would not get in contact with ever again. You do not need this to spin against you.

And a woman showing up at your house shows that this is more then just an EA (IMO).


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## nickgtg

I see you saying "my house," does your husband still live with you? If your husband has access to the house and can come and go as he pleases, then he has the right to allow anyone he wants into the house.

It can't be trespassing if he has the authority to let her in. As far as the threats go, you should have made an offense report. The police can't tell you they won't make a report. You need to start documenting any and all contact with her. If you want a report made you tell them to make one. If they won't do it you ask for a supervisor to make the scene. 

As far as sending her a few texts, that doesn't mean a thing unless they were threatening in nature. It sounds like the police were trying to get out of doing a report.


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## Jellybeans

clipclop2 said:


> He chose a nutter. Get a restraining order against her.
> 
> Take a very hard line. She went to your house. That is scary.


Absolutely this.

Total bunny boiler.

What'd your husband say?


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## damagedgoods1

Chances are, if your husband opens the door again, it is likely a crime will be committed. 
If you look through my past posts (specifically my 1st ever post), I tell my childhood story of when my father's OW came over, he opened the door ---> she stabbed him multiple times with a large kitchen knife.

If she comes over again, let her scream and then call the police for the noise disturbance. 
Restraining orders are harder to get than you would think. You have to show X # of incidents where you feared for your life before they will grant you a restraining order. I am not an attorney; I just had a friend who went through the process to get a restraining order to keep her ex-fiancee away.


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## vi_bride04

Looks like your WH is protecting the OW still. 

I see no remorse and he is willing to jeapordize your safety. You don't think he doesn't know what a crazy she is??? Yeah right, he just doesn't respect you. And to bring her into your house?? wow.


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## arandomlady

lordmayhem said:


> What country/state are you in?


Lordmayhem I'm in a western state in the us, rather not be too specific. As far as him protecting me, he cant he is in another state working... the police don't seem to think she will show up again and the fact she has kids a single parent I would hope she wouldn't risk anything. I live in a gated community, have an alarm and own a gun so that's about as good as it can be considering


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## arandomlady

illwill said:


> You are rugsweeping. Why was it his choice to reconcile?


Illlwill I don't think I am, in my original post about 1 month or so ago I talked about what I had done before which faced with other nonsense but never really had any definitive proof so I did rugsweep. Since late December when I became aware of it. I haven't really been in contact with my husband prior to him coming home was doing the plan b hard 180 because this was going on. I have removed his things from the home and pretty much did everything thing but file divorce . had laid out from him the divorce proposal and stated under no certain terms do I consider being his wife while this is occurring. he decided to end the affair changed his number and here we are .... do I think we are out of the woods, NO. the marriage is on pause there is a lot of work to be done


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## arandomlady

Thorburn said:


> Husband left her in so what really could the police do?
> 
> I would not get in contact with ever again. You do not need this to spin against you.
> 
> And a woman showing up at your house shows that this is more then just an EA (IMO).


Thornburn I had considered it to be a full on affair. The issue is that my husband of course never admitted it and I didn't have any proof except contact and irregularities here and there. I just charged forth with what I had and stopped the contact when he wouldn't stop talking to other woman. The fact that he refused to after I told him how uncomfortable I was with it was enough to ascertain an affair


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## arandomlady

nickgtg said:


> I see you saying "my house," does your husband still live with you? If your husband has access to the house and can come and go as he pleases, then he has the right to allow anyone he wants into the house.
> 
> It can't be trespassing if he has the authority to let her in. As far as the threats go, you should have made an offense report. The police can't tell you they won't make a report. You need to start documenting any and all contact with her. If you want a report made you tell them to make one. If they won't do it you ask for a supervisor to make the scene.
> 
> As far as sending her a few texts, that doesn't mean a thing unless they were threatening in nature. It sounds like the police were trying to get out of doing a report.



Nickgtg- primal semantics lol- We are still married no legal separation but we are physically apart because he works out of state and we are joint owners of the home. So the police were like he let her in what do you want us to do... he says he only did that to prevent her from making a scene outside and damaging anything- very stupid don't think we didn't have a conversation about that. I have changed my number as well. Some people may be wondering why I didn't go down stairs and confront her back well the truth is I didn't think I could control myself with all the emotions brewing over the duration of this thing plus the audacity of her to come here. If I was going to meet her, its on my terms not hers just because she lacked self control and came to my house because she couldn't reach my husband


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## arandomlady

Jellybeans said:


> Absolutely this.
> 
> Total bunny boiler.
> 
> What'd your husband say?


He says he is sorry didn't think she would do anything like this as she is supposedly a reasonable person ( working mother) he realizes should not have let her in despite what he was afraid she would do or what scene she would have made


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## arandomlady

damagedgoods1 said:


> Chances are, if your husband opens the door again, it is likely a crime will be committed.
> If you look through my past posts (specifically my 1st ever post), I tell my childhood story of when my father's OW came over, he opened the door ---> she stabbed him multiple times with a large kitchen knife.
> 
> If she comes over again, let her scream and then call the police for the noise disturbance.
> Restraining orders are harder to get than you would think. You have to show X # of incidents where you feared for your life before they will grant you a restraining order. I am not an attorney; I just had a friend who went through the process to get a restraining order to keep her ex-fiancee away.


Damagesgoods1 exactly that what the police said. I am sorry to learn that happened . they and I told my husband he is not to open the door specifically for that reason and like other said he is in the fog thinking about her and not even his or my safety. he has been advised that I don't care what never ever ever let someone in the house like that again. I don't think she will though, it is documented that she came here and was not invited so if it happens again its just going to be bad for her which is why I did not agree to just come down and talk to her. I wanted it documented she was there and that I neither of us invited her though husband did let her in which obviously is a bonehead move


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## clipclop2

You should look up the bunny boiler I mentioned. Having her own children should be a comfort if the,real world were sane.

Assume her mental health is off. Why else would she think she has a prayer with a married man? 

She is desperate.

If she were just a kid I could say she is naive and flattered. She has been around the block.


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## MattMatt

lisab0105 said:


> Wow, you have much more restraint than I would have. ***** would have been flat on her skanky @ss back if dared to come into my house.


Speaking of which, a restraint order should be looked at ASAP.


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## arandomlady

vi_bride04 said:


> Looks like your WH is protecting the OW still.
> 
> I see no remorse and he is willing to jeapordize your safety. You don't think he doesn't know what a crazy she is??? Yeah right, he just doesn't respect you. And to bring her into your house?? wow.


vi_bride- I am not going to say there is none as I haven't gone into everything that happened after the episode as this is still in progress. Obviously the whole situation is troubling which is why the marriage is still on pause. I'm under no illusions to think this is it now we go back to normal. The fact of the matter is she is reacting to him ending things and I don't think he thought it through when he let her in. You never know how you are going to act if you feel betrayed. she was shouting that he played with her and used her....as I'm on the phone with the police I couldnt believe what I was hearing...


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## tdwal

arandomlady said:


> Lordmayhem I'm in a western state in the us, rather not be too specific. As far as him protecting me, he cant he is in another state working... the police don't seem to think she will show up again and the fact she has kids a single parent I would hope she wouldn't risk anything. I live in a gated community, have an alarm and own a gun so that's about as good as it can be considering


If you live in a gated community how did she get in, someone (your H) had to have left word to let her in wouldn't they?


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## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> You should look up the bunny boiler I mentioned. Having her own children should be a comfort if the,real world were sane.
> 
> Assume her mental health is off. Why else would she think she has a prayer with a married man?
> 
> She is desperate.
> 
> If she were just a kid I could say she is naive and flattered. She has been around the block.


clipclop2- I did and mortified with that story. I cant understand why my husband is going for this person. we don't have children together, he has children from previous marriage so I guess they have that in common and fact that they worked at the same place for a while. I am naive to this these shenanigans It would never occur to me to do that so take for granted to others its not a problem. I'm no saint but come on


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## arandomlady

MattMatt said:


> Speaking of which, a restraint order should be looked at ASAP.


mattmatt you cant until something happens. she wasn't invited but because husband opened door not trespassing


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## arandomlady

tdwal said:


> If you live in a gated community how did she get in, someone (your H) had to have left word to let her in wouldn't they?


you cant get in without a code to drive car though the gate but there is bypass gate door for people to walk out of the community that should be locked but of course people don't. she didn't drive up to my home as there was no car around so she walked from the gate in front of the community


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## tdwal

arandomlady said:


> you cant get in without a code to drive car though the gate but there is bypass gate door for people to walk out of the community that should be locked but of course people don't. she didn't drive up to my home as there was no car around so she walked from the gate in front of the community


Well so much for a gated community being secure when someone malicious can walk right up to your front door. You would think your H would have been wondering how the heck she got in.


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## clipclop2

The reasons we get attracted to someone are simple. She made him feel good. She made him feel so good he would risk things he took for granted. He also likely didn't think he would get caught.

High reward. Low risk.

If you want to repair the relationship that's where you should focus.

But first protect yourself.

He isn't someone you can trust. Even if he says he wants her gone she still has a hold on him. Guilt. Guys who cheat tend to be wussies. They will yes you both to death. So take complete control over every aspect of your life. He has to earn his way back and expect him to waffle and lead her on even if he wants to break it off with her.

The thing that made her look good will also pull at him as you take control because these wussy guys hate that that have no balls. They have no balls because that didn't know how to use them in the first place. That's why they end up giving them away and find bunny boilers. So he will probably bounce back and forth.

If he doesn't, you have a good shot at saving the marriage.

If he bounces consider finding a real man and letting this guy go.

Real men can have affairs too but I think they are more likely to trade up. 

Still, men with integrity either fix their marriages or dump your ass rather than cheat. They sure as hell don't let their AP in the door because they are afraid of the scene they might make. They would protect their wives first.


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## vi_bride04

Damn, clipclop, you hit the nail on the head with that post!


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## arandomlady

tdwal said:


> Well so much for a gated community being secure when someone malicious can walk right up to your front door. You would think your H would have been wondering how the heck she got in.


It was pretty clear when she didn't arrive in a vehicle to he house. she could have just waited for someone to drive in through the gate and drove in after them but instead of waiting for that she walked through the side gate plus I guess she wanted to be stealth... this is not a very upscale place with live guards or anything and its not a crime ridden area. even if locked you could just quickly climb over if diligent... the violation was him opening the door obviously when she got here which needless to say leaves a lot to desired when comes to who he was protecting 



clipclop2 said:


> The reasons we get attracted to someone are simple. She made him feel good. She made him feel so good he would risk things he took for granted. He also likely didn't think he would get caught.
> 
> High reward. Low risk.
> 
> If you want to repair the relationship that's where you should focus.
> 
> But first protect yourself.
> 
> He isn't someone you can trust. Even if he says he wants her gone she still has a hold on him. Guilt. Guys who cheat tend to be wussies. They will yes you both to death. So take complete control over every aspect of your life. He has to earn his way back and expect him to waffle and lead her on even if he wants to break it off with her.
> 
> The thing that made her look good will also pull at him as you take control because these wussy guys hate that that have no balls. They have no balls because that didn't know how to use them in the first place. That's why they end up giving them away and find bunny boilers. So he will probably bounce back and forth.
> 
> If he doesn't, you have a good shot at saving the marriage.
> 
> If he bounces consider finding a real man and letting this guy go.
> 
> Real men can have affairs too but I think they are more likely to trade up.
> 
> Still, men with integrity either fix their marriages or dump your ass rather than cheat. They sure as hell don't let their AP in the door because they are afraid of the scene they might make. They would protect their wives first.


Clipclop2 - you are absolutely right and I am obviously not feeling very secure about his stance especially with her letting her into the house at the slightest provocation... The trust is gone and before all of this I had proceeded with financial separation as the physical though he still comes home on his days off. There is a strict no touching policy that has been in effect since this I became aware of this. He has agreed to std testing and to attend mc with me, I had him to sign boundary agreement and other things to spell out the expectations going forward and full confession and repentance to God as well as full disclosure of events in mc. I don't know if he will follow through but I will not unpause the marriage unless there is major measurable progress from his end and even then it will be incremental steps. I have verbally and in writing indicated the long road ahead to repair the harm caused by all of this. 

I am continuing ic to get a handle on myself and what I contributed to the downfall of the marriage and what I can do for myself whether or not I am married to him or anyone else. This is a day by day process. I have the benefit of him not being here to really assess if I want to work on the marriage or bail. I don't want to completely tear apart his whole character over the affair as this can come off as judgment which is not my place to do. 

Yes the actions with the affair is strong indicator what he is capable of and I cant assume he wont ping pong which why I haven't really changed anything accept I am taking his calls and making demands and setting expectations. there is no honeymoon going on here...I am thinking the lack of affection from me and now the other women (assuming he keeping nc) will drive him to stop and reflect and do the right thing.

If he doesn't and is unwilling to do the work needed then I will not beat a dead horse. I just want to know that I have done all I could to salvage things in keeping with the for better or worse part of marriage agreement. At that point, I will be confident about leaving the marriage because of the work I am doing with myself and hopefully be stronger for it in the end


----------



## clipclop2

You're handling this very well. You've got a good head on your shoulders.

I hope he gets his head together and does the right thing.


----------



## Miss Taken

Definitely a _Bunny Boiler_ as others have said.

Congratulations for having the wherewithal to stay upstairs. I like to stay classy (Sandiego), butI don't know what I'd do if I had the OW in my house pulling something like that. That is such a violation it's not even funny.

I know you've already spoken about this to your husband but I would reiterate the importance of him knowing that he is never in any circumstances to let her in.


It doesn't matter if she's breaking windows.

It doesn't matter if she's scratching your cars or beating them with a hammer.

It doesn't matter if she's on fire.

Having the cops called to a domestic disturbance is going to be embarrassing whether he lets her in or not. Might as well let her embarrass herself the most AND give the cops a reason to arrest her since she's trespassing.

Let her break windows or damage property. Then she can be arrested and charged with a crime or sued in small claims court. To further embarrass her (and create a public record of the heinous monstrosity that is her behaviour).

*About the Bunny Boiler:*

Have *a lawyer* draft up a cease and desist or do not contact letter that states, she is not to call you, go to your home, go to your workplace, email, contact you on the net. Nadda. Have it sent by registered mail. Do same for husband especially if you are reconciling.

I don't know about the US but in Canada, you can request a copy of the police report. If you can have it, ORDER IT.

Keep detailed notes including: time, date, when and where of any other confrontations or harassment by her. If she is in your home or on your property, you absolutely have the right to video tape her in your house. If you're in a public place and she follows you, you have the right to video tape her at least in Canada you may film in public areas without a problem.

While you may not be able to file a restraining order now, you can gather what you need now in order to build a case for one and depending on her actions, criminal harassment and possibly a civil suit as well.

*As for your safety*

Are you close to your neighbours? If so, let one of them know you are being harassed and to keep an eye out for her. You don't have to divulge about the affair, just ask them to keep an eye out. If you have a friend to stay with or one that could stay with you right now while your husband is away, I highly suggest it.

Miss Boiler is obsessed with your husband. Even cheaters can have the decency not to come to your house. This one is clearly unstable, so it's better to be safe than sorry. I would rather you over-react than under-react and end up getting harmed.


----------



## happy as a clam

Miss Taken said:


> Definitely a _Bunny Boiler_ as others have said...
> 
> Are you close to your neighbours? If so, let one of them know you are being harassed and to keep an eye out for her. You don't have to divulge about the affair, just ask them to keep an eye out. If you have a friend to stay with or one that could stay with you right now while your husband is away, I highly suggest it.


Excellent advice. Miss Taken's entire post was excellent, but this in particular. Stay safe.


----------



## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> You're handling this very well. You've got a good head on your shoulders.
> 
> I hope he gets his head together and does the right thing.


CLipclop2- I appreciate your insightful response. I have been leaning on God big time on this and I am not a particularly religious person. I am trying to use a combination of biblical teaching, counseling and peer advice for help. This website has been very helpful. My parents know bits and pieces of whats going on but I have not disclosed to my friends as many of them are also his. Despite what he has done, he is not totally a bad guy. I am not willing to completely throw him away for this. Where I am now is I forgive him as I hope I am forgiven by God for wrong I have done...but that doesn't mean I trust him and wont hold him accountable


----------



## workindad

arandomlady said:


> mattmatt you cant until something happens. she wasn't invited but because husband opened door not trespassing


Are you sure about this? I'm not a lawyer, but you should definitely check with someone *qualified* to advise you on this subject.


----------



## arandomlady

Miss Taken said:


> Definitely a _Bunny Boiler_ as others have said.
> 
> Congratulations for having the wherewithal to stay upstairs. I like to stay classy (Sandiego), butI don't know what I'd do if I had the OW in my house pulling something like that. That is such a violation it's not even funny.
> 
> I know you've already spoken about this to your husband but I would reiterate the importance of him knowing that he is never in any circumstances to let her in.
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if she's breaking windows.
> 
> It doesn't matter if she's scratching your cars or beating them with a hammer.
> 
> It doesn't matter if she's on fire.
> 
> Having the cops called to a domestic disturbance is going to be embarrassing whether he lets her in or not. Might as well let her embarrass herself the most AND give the cops a reason to arrest her since she's trespassing.
> 
> Let her break windows or damage property. Then she can be arrested and charged with a crime or sued in small claims court. To further embarrass her (and create a public record of the heinous monstrosity that is her behaviour).
> 
> *About the Bunny Boiler:*
> 
> Have *a lawyer* draft up a cease and desist or do not contact letter that states, she is not to call you, go to your home, go to your workplace, email, contact you on the net. Nadda. Have it sent by registered mail. Do same for husband especially if you are reconciling.
> 
> I don't know about the US but in Canada, you can request a copy of the police report. If you can have it, ORDER IT.
> 
> Keep detailed notes including: time, date, when and where of any other confrontations or harassment by her. If she is in your home or on your property, you absolutely have the right to video tape her in your house. If you're in a public place and she follows you, you have the right to video tape her at least in Canada you may film in public areas without a problem.
> 
> While you may not be able to file a restraining order now, you can gather what you need now in order to build a case for one and depending on her actions, criminal harassment and possibly a civil suit as well.
> 
> *As for your safety*
> 
> Are you close to your neighbours? If so, let one of them know you are being harassed and to keep an eye out for her. You don't have to divulge about the affair, just ask them to keep an eye out. If you have a friend to stay with or one that could stay with you right now while your husband is away, I highly suggest it.
> 
> Miss Boiler is obsessed with your husband. Even cheaters can have the decency not to come to your house. This one is clearly unstable, so it's better to be safe than sorry. I would rather you over-react than under-react and end up getting harmed.




Miss Taken, thank you for the tips. And yes the lady always keeps it classy, lol. About husband letting her in, Yes that was the first thing I said when they all left. When he comes home next week I will reiterate that. I told him as a matter of fact I wanted her to do something because then she could have been arrested and they would have actually done something about her coming here ( he didn’t want her arrested because of her kids and blah, blah, blah) lame is what I say to that. Control yourself and not show up to your affair partners marital home acting a fool and there would be no worries about that..

The staying up stairs was for my own sanity and not giving her the satisfaction that she can ambush me and demand to speak to me when I did not sanction her visit. Instead of calling or texting me back because I sent her a text just saying hey can you tell me whats going on, she came here as if to say I will respond alright by coming to your house. I thought that was very confrontational. She is the one in the wrong along with my husband. The thing is, I don’t think she would have come here though if my husband had not changed his number. Her surprised visit was more to hurt him than confront me because she probably figured I would never forgive him for her doing that as that is the pinnacle of disrespect on the top of the cake of the affair.

My husband may be weakminded when it comes to her but I am not. One disturbing thing she kept yelling up to me “ I am older than you..” I thought was an odd thing to say along with others thing but that stood out. My husband is 41 She is 40 and I am 35 we are not worlds apart in age but apparently she thought that was worth mentioning. Her visit has been documented by the police and I have an event number but they didn’t right a report as no crime commited, again husband let her in so… I don’t expect another one because I don’t think she realized that I would call them and not talk to her when technically I did want to talk to her just not like this. She got her point across to my husband that she will not be ignored and really make an exit since he ended it.

So she cant call me or him unless we give her the number. She stated to police she only was responding to me but since I wouldn’t talk to her she will leave it at that as long as I don’t contact her again. Though she didn’t tell them she came to stick it to the husband for ignoring her and changing his number… They told me not to text or call her. I told them to relay to her there will no further contact and I expect none from her either or the police will be immediately involved again.

As far as sending her a letter or anything I will let sleeping dogs lay. Admittedly, I feel like I opened the door to this thing by contacting her in the first place though she took it to the next level. The only way I will get a lawyer involved is if there is further contact. I don’t want to give her any ammunition to up the ante again if she is not actively doing anything.

Unfortunately not close to neighbors it’s a pretty transient culture here and people keep to themselves. I am not running from her and I will not be a prisoner in my own home. she has been forewarned and I told the police that I felt very threatened given the nature of her visit and wanted that documented so that if there is another visit it is obvious her presence is unwanted


----------



## arandomlady

workindad said:


> Are you sure about this? I'm not a lawyer, but you should definitely check with someone *qualified* to advise you on this subject.


TI didn't talk to a lawyer but the police officers indicated that as Though she came here unannounced, that in itself is not a crime until she does something like get physical or break property. Once my husband let her in , she is an invited guest. They advised me if she continues to visit unannounced the first thing obviously is don't let her in ( directed at husband) just call them and they will respond and document but until there is a crime committed by her, I can document and if its continues then can apply for restraining order but only after numerous unwanted contact


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## clipclop2

But once he tells her to leave, if she doesn't leave, she is trespassing.

Did your H change his email address and work phone number? 

Does he have other "chat" programs on his phone? If he is weak, he may very well give in to her.

The "older" comment is weird. You don't get to "cut in" on someone else's marriage because you're older and want the husband. Lunatic.

But hey, Rambo... use your cell phone if she comes around again. Video the entire thing. 

Also, don't protect your husband from the fall-out of his affair by not talking to friends, even if they are also his friends. Don't give anything tactical away, but don't shelter him from being seen as foolish. I bet some of those "friends" have known about the affair longer than you have, and those are the "friends" you need to cut out of your life. So try to find out who they are so they can be properly "thanked" for their friendship to the marriage by never sharing another moment of your marriage again.


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## Miss Taken

I like everything you've said except for "letting sleeping dogs lie" as far as sending a no contact letter.

The reason I suggest the letter is because you'll have proof that her contact is unwanted, even if you can't yet get a restraining order. The no-contact letter is proof that you've told her she's unwelcome and not to come around. Sending it by registered mail provides proof that she's gotten the notice. So she can't refute that or play ignorant about it if she comes around again. Then if/when she does you can get her charged or at least get the restraining order for harassing you.

Otherwise I think you're doing an excellent job. Just don't prevent acting in fear of stirring the pot with your husband. Your husband put the pot on the fire to begin with. 

I also agree with clipclop - video tape or voice record any further interactions you have with her on your phone. 

I think she was rubbing your face with the being older because she feels that's her leverage. ("Look how good I am, I'm older than you.") It's just craziness. You can't understand or argue with craziness lol.

Hang in there.


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## clipclop2

I find myself agreeing with letting that sleeping loco dog lie.

The police were involved in the last interaction. So there are third party witnesses.

If she contacts the husband or in any way shows she's nosing around, then have a lawyer draft a letter.


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## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> But once he tells her to leave, if she doesn't leave, she is trespassing.
> 
> Did your H change his email address and work phone number?
> 
> Does he have other "chat" programs on his phone? If he is weak, he may very well give in to her.
> 
> The "older" comment is weird. You don't get to "cut in" on someone else's marriage because you're older and want the husband. Lunatic.
> 
> But hey, Rambo... use your cell phone if she comes around again. Video the entire thing.
> 
> Also, don't protect your husband from the fall-out of his affair by not talking to friends, even if they are also his friends. Don't give anything tactical away, but don't shelter him from being seen as foolish. I bet some of those "friends" have known about the affair longer than you have, and those are the "friends" you need to cut out of your life. So try to find out who they are so they can be properly "thanked" for their friendship to the marriage by never sharing another moment of your marriage again.



Ah you guys are really holding me to task, I appreciate it and hate it at the same time...lol About the phone-he actually just got a work number today as it happens as he was a trainee and is just getting his equipment. I have access to his home email and virtual workstation so I can see his schedule, paystubs etc.

He doesn't have a personal pc as he is a field employee for a very physical job not that I put it past him to find somewhere to login in but the days are long and location remote so I don't think he really can. I haven't checked his phones as there was no time as all of this occurred the day he was scheduled to drive back to work. This is what will happen when is back next week. He left went back to work out of state with alot of unfinished business. 

unfortunately when he told he about his work phone today I am now thinking he could text/call her from the work number if he is weak which sadly I think he might be...

The older comment was odd indeed I keep hearing that out of all the things she said... I guess as if to say she is experienced? yea I guess-

About her coming around and videoing her, I don't know if I will get that close to engage cause if I am holding a phone she could be doing something to me. perhaps if from a distance but I cant see anyone my front door unless I open it which defeats the whole purpose. I had looking into a surveillance system years before this because of how its set up but was just lazy and cheap. its a must now. obviously if she is just lurking around outside then I could catch her and film it. but I am likely to have gun in hand if I think she is around hand and I cant go looking for her outside as I would then be the aggressor...

The thing about friends is I don't have many as most have moved away and are people I work with. he has his own set of friends of people he used to work with but I don't associate with them ( other women included). he has been at multiple jobs and has more acquaintances than anything. he associates with mine of course because I have had the same friends for years so their husbands get to know him and so on. If I didn't work with them I may have just don't want to be the mill in the gossip. I am sure they are already gossiping with the fact we are more apart than together in the current arrangement...

His friends that worked with him at the same job as the other women probably know but they weren't my friends so I doubt if they would care one way or the other. My parents knowing is a necessity though I didn't want it that way because they think he is so great and that we are such a good couple so I did end up ending the marriage and not telling them, then I would look like the lunatic.. he doesn't know that they know, which I didn't tell them everything...they are only in their mid 50's and have both been remarried to other people only to get back together again then divorce and remarry again so they know the craziness of this sort of thing


----------



## arandomlady

Miss Taken said:


> I like everything you've said except for "letting sleeping dogs lie" as far as sending a no contact letter.
> 
> The reason I suggest the letter is because you'll have proof that her contact is unwanted, even if you can't yet get a restraining order. The no-contact letter is proof that you've told her she's unwelcome and not to come around. Sending it by registered mail provides proof that she's gotten the notice. So she can't refute that or play ignorant about it if she comes around again. Then if/when she does you can get her charged or at least get the restraining order for harassing you.
> 
> Otherwise I think you're doing an excellent job. Just don't prevent acting in fear of stirring the pot with your husband. Your husband put the pot on the fire to begin with.
> 
> I also agree with clipclop - video tape or voice record any further interactions you have with her on your phone.
> 
> I think she was rubbing your face with the being older because she feels that's her leverage. ("Look how good I am, I'm older than you.") It's just craziness. You can't understand or argue with craziness lol.
> 
> Hang in there.


I appreciate the advice, the police were pretty clear about no contact what so ever because that is what she used as her reasoning of coming here. She was told the same so I think that's enough for everyone to stay clear of each other. I know what you're saying but it is already documented with the police and can be referred to if any other disturbances from her. Believe it or not, its not really about stirring anything with the husband because he is not even here and is not accessible at the work site. I have her description from the police so I have been viligent about my surroundings as I usually am since alone
yes the older thing just sticks in my head though she said a lot...its seems a weird thing to be proud of


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## Cynthia

She probably mentioned the age difference to try to intimidate you. Like Miss Taken said, it's just craziness and meaningless.


----------



## Tasty

Well, it appears your husband is free from this woman. Congrats, but are you safe from her? She knows you and your home...and she sounds pretty violent to me.

Be careful with her but build your marriage to a new level. Hold no grudges, keep no pain, remain close to each other.

Good luck.


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## arandomlady

Tasty said:


> Well, it appears your husband is free from this woman. Congrats, but are you safe from her? She knows you and your home...and she sounds pretty violent to me.
> 
> Be careful with her but build your marriage to a new level. Hold no grudges, keep no pain, remain close to each other.
> 
> Good luck.


 Hey Tasty, I far as I know she haven't come back but I am not totally sure he is truly nc. right now the problem is lack of remorse. he still even now admits nothing and tries to blameshift so I have decided we are not married. I cant divorce due to financial issues with ch 13 bankruptcy we are in middle of. unfortunately we are at an impasse because I am not going to rugsweep this and he is acting like I am crazy because not acting like we are a couple... well duh.


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## clipclop2

See a lawyer anyway. There may be some post nuptial you can write to deal with this.

Expose his affair far and wide. Let him explain it to everyone and see how many people think his blameshifting is honest and appropriate.

You can also go through most of the paperwork for the divorce but not finish it. Of he doesn't see some serious consequences he will likely cheat again.


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## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> See a lawyer anyway. There may be some post nuptial you can write to deal with this.
> 
> Expose his affair far and wide. Let him explain it to everyone and see how many people think his blameshifting is honest and appropriate.
> 
> You can also go through most of the paperwork for the divorce but not finish it. Of he doesn't see some serious consequences he will likely cheat again.



Clipclop We are not together in any capacity at this point are more apart than together since he is working another state. When he does come home, we do not sleep together no touching what so ever, all of his things are in the garage and I have not talked about the relationship just househoold items. I am holding off consulting a lawyer until he starts refusing to pay his share of the expenses so that is the next step. Our situation with bing in middle of the ch 13 which is in itself complicated enough is thrown into a tailspin with a divorce on top of it. I was told by the bankruptcy lawyer that we each need separate attys. I'm in no position to pay for this unless there is a real crisis.

In his last visit this week (which I did not request him to come), he was upset as I went out for a few hours and did not tell him where I was going I told him what is the point of this we are not together anyway plus he says he has done nothing wrong and is really just lashing out at me because he took a tougher job that dangerous out town etc. he is making it like he did it for me when he needed to get caught up on child support arrears... 

he is calling me names like princess which is not my character at all. I work long hours in office setting and have been basically carrying us financially as his employment and earnng amount has been unstable though out the marriage. right now very recently is the first time he could actually gross significantly more than I do and we are behind bills so I think he believes he can treat me any kind of way... because he stands to be the breadwinner for once so I think he is smelling his own musk as they say... 

I told him until we are divorced he is responsible for everything just like I am as he has not relinquished joint ownership of the house nor has the bankruptcy been completed which are 2 of the biggest expenses. he drove back to his place 8 hrs away in a huff because I told him I don't care what he does financially now it wont make up for what he has done ( the affair disrespect) and furthermore he needs to keep that job not for me but for his other obligations and no, one good paycheck doesn't make up for over a decade of unstable income...

we are not speaking now and I am fine with no contact at this point. with him being this defiant there is no marriage. In ic the counselor was like don't bother bringing him as he isn't remorseful. i have been building activities to keep my mind off this. Its really unfortunate that after so many years together this is how it is


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## clipclop2

Be careful. You do care what he does financially. You are still joined at the hip in the ways that can bite you further. Praise him for working hard and bringing home money. That is separate from the rest of the marriage. Don't be so proud he reacts like the vindictive jerk that he is.

Sorry about the chapter 13. Life will be better when it is over.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> Hey Tasty, I far as I know she haven't come back but I am not totally sure he is truly nc. right now the problem is lack of remorse. he still even now admits nothing and tries to blameshift so I have decided we are not married. I cant divorce due to financial issues with ch 13 bankruptcy we are in middle of. unfortunately we are at an impasse because I am not going to rugsweep this and he is acting like I am crazy because not acting like we are a couple... well duh.


You really can't express this idea to your husband. That just green lights infidelity.

You ARE married until you divorce, and you ought to expect him to honor those commitments. Hold him to that.

Don't tell him he's not married, that just encourages his disrespect.

Don't tell him he's not married, that just green lights more disrespect.


----------



## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> Be careful. You do care what he does financially. You are still joined at the hip in the ways that can bite you further. Praise him for working hard and bringing home money. That is separate from the rest of the marriage. Don't be so proud he reacts like the vindictive jerk that he is.
> 
> Sorry about the chapter 13. Life will be better when it is over.



I know which is why I had been treading lightly with this thing in first place. I had been praising him about the work during this whole thing because he would complain about problems on the job ad etc. he really needs to stick this out whether he is with me or not as I have explained to him on several occasions. He cant just quit when the going gets tough as he always does. I wanted to try to make him feel like a man in that way since I wasn't affectionate with him. I told him this is the means to provide a future for your kids they are young adults. I don't put myself in that category because I cant trust him to provide for us in that way given his history plus with the affair I don't know if WE even have one.

He uses the new job to manipulate the situation saying he could die doing this and its dangerous.. he knew that when HE went out of his way to apply and train for it. It only came to a head on Friday because he began saying I am going to benefit from his hard work. I'm like and what have YOU been benefiting from while I worked a job I didn't particularly love when I went to college for something else?? I wasn't a princess when I was carrying the household when you were constantly underemployed so don't call me one now...

The ch13 now is mainly thousands in child support arrears he never cleared up and a little mortgage arrears. the consumer stuff thrown out. Yes we are both responsible as we filed joint but I am looking into divorce and see if I can bifurcate the bankruptcy which I know would be complicated. That's what I need know the ramifications of that for me especially if I argue he is now making more than I am when the plan was originally drafted. 

Thing is, I rather not get into this at all as we both will probably pay more than just paying the plan as is even if we are not on good terms with the marriage. He knows whats up if messes that up he has more to lose as his ex will just come after him and demand the full amount if its gets dismissed for non payment. Probably could face jail time if she pushed the issue... I would probably lose the house to foreclosure since I couldn't pay the mortgage arrears in full which at this point may not be such a bad thing. It underwater but I got a very god rate and had not plan on leaving it.

Whats hard to get over is that in his warped reality, he thinks he is doing ME a favor by actually working hard for once... that's what stings. In my mind he had it easy many years while I tried to be supportive as he dabbled in several careers, schooling etc, so its time for him to get on the grind. He wants an award for doing what he is supposed to do. 

Add the affair and bad attitude its really pushing me to just cut the losses and financial aftermath be damned.


----------



## Cynthia

True, you are married and therefore what he does impacts you greatly. 
Being respectful towards him does not mean putting up with mistreatment. You can do both.


----------



## Miss Taken

Allen_A said:


> You really can't express this idea to your husband. That just green lights infidelity.
> 
> You ARE married until you divorce, and you ought to expect him to honor those commitments. Hold him to that.
> 
> Don't tell him he's not married, that just encourages his disrespect.
> 
> Don't tell him he's not married, that just green lights more disrespect.


I don't think it's as harmful for them as you interpret it. While he might take it that way, he may also realize that she's saying she won't put up with his sh!t and still be there for him. How I interpret is it's an "emotional divorce". She is not going to give him the sexual, spiritual, emotional, and friendship benefits of marriage so long as he is disrespecting her. Hence the statement - "we're not married." She isn't giving him a free pass to be an ass, just saying she's not going to treat him like her husband when he isn't acting like one.

Right now it doesn't sound like she can be free of him via a divorce. Given their bankruptcy, she might be stuck with this d0uche for a few years (I hope not) but she needs to see the marriage as dead and over with in order to get through this. 

My abusive step-dad fought my mom tooth and nail over their divorce. It took five years for her/us to be free of the sick bastard. I don't think she needs to feel married to this guy over what he has whittled down to be nothing more than a piece of paper. He threw the marriage away and is now stomping on it like it's garbage by his continued disrespect. Whether she insists on them being married or not is not going to make a difference in how he treats her. Only he can decide what his behaviour will be and right now he's choosing wrong.

I don't think she should honour any commitments to this man outside of what she is legally bound to financially do until they can divorce or he has a change of heart and *she* wants a reconciliation. Sounds to me like she is 180ing and needs to continue to do so for her own sanity IMO.


----------



## clipclop2

You are doing an awesome job. You really are very level headed. I probably would have throttled him when he says those ridiculous things that just don't reflect reality.

So how are you responsible for his child support payments? I know they can change CP to take into account a new spouse's income, but isn't the burden really on him?

My ex stopped paying a long time ago. I talked to my lawyer and then decided to let it go. He went through ch. 13, too but before CP. He pretty much lost everything. I guess I still feel bad for him despite it being his actions that caught up with him.

I hope your h has good insurance! I also hope that's not what he was referring to by saying you benefit fromhis hard work... that he will get killed and you will get the money.

If he is careful and follows SOPs and best practices he should recognize the danger but be proud of what he is accomplishing. For once he is acting like a real man rather than a scoff law. 

His arguments are so juvenile. I understand why you are so frustrated.

How does he justify his affair? Ask him if he minds if you get a boyfriend. In all seriousness. It's it ok for a married woman to have a man on the side? Can you have him over to meet him sometime? To taunt him about how you being to him and that he is more worthy of you than your husband is? Wouldn't he feel betrayed and humiliated?

Why is it so important for him to forget what you have done for him all these years? His inability to accept he hasn't been the man he should have been.

Why is he all nutso allot his job? He is truly afraid. He is afraid to get hurt or killed.

Why did he have an affair? Both reasons.

There is a commonality in people who have affairs and it is the inability, unwillingness, to acknowledge their failings. They would die rather than see themselves the easy they truly are. Their egos can't handle it.

Where that comes from I don't know. But we can see how your husband's behavior and response to his inner feelings of inadequacy have only put him farther into that which he cannot face. He is his own worst enemy. He really is punishing himself. 

I dint know if that kind of person can be fixed. I think it is a combo of narcissism and psychopathy, if that's a word. Maybe one of those whole family interventions could snap him out of it.

Does his ex wife feel as you do about him? Did he cheat on her? Do his kids like our respect him?

Anyway, speculation...

What I know is you are doing well. The tension and anxiety you feel must be intense. I'm glad you went out and I hope you have a lot of support in real life. It is really a shame that your willingness to take him on, which is what you really did, hasn't been rewarding. You trusted and hoped. You are a good person.


----------



## clipclop2

PS, sorry to hear your story Miss Taken. Sometimes I think you have to take the coyote ugly approach and gnaw off your arm to get away from some people. It is really hard whenyou have kids. Will they be able to take care of them? Will they starve? Will staying harm them? But better to eat and have a roof than live in a car and go to bed hungry. Maybe it wasn't that bad but I'm sure those images go through people's minds. I some cases they may even be real possibilities. But most people, with public assistance and family can scrape by. It must be very difficult. The kids might not understand. Appreciate the sacrifice. 

Whenthe spouse won't let go and would rather spend money that could go toward their family even in the absence of a marriage you can really tell how sick they are.


----------



## Allen_A

Miss Taken said:


> I don't think it's as harmful for them as you interpret it. While he might take it that way, he may also realize that she's saying she won't put up with his sh!t and still be there for him.


That's not how waywards think and everyone here knows that.

Any wayward would take that as a green light to act hurtful and disrespectful.. worse than they already are.

If you want to communicate to a wayward you won't be there for them, you act that way... you don't verbalize it, you DO it.

Communication through action is the only language a wayward pays any attention to.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> You really can't express this idea to your husband. That just green lights infidelity.
> 
> You ARE married until you divorce, and you ought to expect him to honor those commitments. Hold him to that.
> 
> Don't tell him he's not married, that just encourages his disrespect.
> 
> Don't tell him he's not married, that just green lights more disrespect.


Well I don't feel I'm exactly giving him any ideas as he already had the affair and it may still be in progress but point taken. I think my words to him were more like I am not going to be a wife to you until there is consistent measurable progress and changes. We cant even get past him lying about the nature of the affair. HE just wants to say he stopped talking to her so lets just move on and I wont. There are other factors at play here with resentment of him working this new job that is adding fuel to his defiance. 

I guess a guy like this could twist what I said and think to himself that I said we can see other people. Truthfully i don't think semantics are the issue at this point, there is a lack of respect in our marriage that has reached epic proportions and I think I brought this on by being pretty easy going but not anymore. I have taken a hard stance on this and have done everything thing but file. I need to see financially what's the most viable option here. I would like to recoup financially what i have put into the marriage since he is finally in the position to do so. I want to play it out as I cant stand to lose on that end as well given the fact I already lost my husband. I am always hopeful he will come around because I think we do love each other but at the same time if its not meant to be then I want compensation before I exit.


----------



## alte Dame

FWIW, I agree that his behavior indicates that he has not established NC with the OW. I would assume that going forward.


----------



## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> You are doing an awesome job. You really are very level headed. I probably would have throttled him when he says those ridiculous things that just don't reflect reality.
> 
> So how are you responsible for his child support payments? I know they can change CP to take into account a new spouse's income, but isn't the burden really on him?
> 
> My ex stopped paying a long time ago. I talked to my lawyer and then decided to let it go. He went through ch. 13, too but before CP. He pretty much lost everything. I guess I still feel bad for him despite it being his actions that caught up with him.
> 
> I hope your h has good insurance! I also hope that's not what he was referring to by saying you benefit fromhis hard work... that he will get killed and you will get the money.
> 
> If he is careful and follows SOPs and best practices he should recognize the danger but be proud of what he is accomplishing. For once he is acting like a real man rather than a scoff law.
> 
> His arguments are so juvenile. I understand why you are so frustrated.
> 
> How does he justify his affair? Ask him if he minds if you get a boyfriend. In all seriousness. It's it ok for a married woman to have a man on the side? Can you have him over to meet him sometime? To taunt him about how you being to him and that he is more worthy of you than your husband is? Wouldn't he feel betrayed and humiliated?
> 
> Why is it so important for him to forget what you have done for him all these years? His inability to accept he hasn't been the man he should have been.
> 
> Why is he all nutso allot his job? He is truly afraid. He is afraid to get hurt or killed.
> 
> Why did he have an affair? Both reasons.
> 
> There is a commonality in people who have affairs and it is the inability, unwillingness, to acknowledge their failings. They would die rather than see themselves the easy they truly are. Their egos can't handle it.
> 
> Where that comes from I don't know. But we can see how your husband's behavior and response to his inner feelings of inadequacy have only put him farther into that which he cannot face. He is his own worst enemy. He really is punishing himself.
> 
> I dint know if that kind of person can be fixed. I think it is a combo of narcissism and psychopathy, if that's a word. Maybe one of those whole family interventions could snap him out of it.
> 
> Does his ex wife feel as you do about him? Did he cheat on her? Do his kids like our respect him?
> 
> Anyway, speculation...
> 
> What I know is you are doing well. The tension and anxiety you feel must be intense. I'm glad you went out and I hope you have a lot of support in real life. It is really a shame that your willingness to take him on, which is what you really did, hasn't been rewarding. You trusted and hoped. You are a good person.



Clipclop2 I appreciate your comments , It is by the grace of God, careful exaimination and reflection that I am able to cope. I suspect there may be a lesson here so I am trying to see through the situation with that in mind. 

About the bankruptcy -His child support arrears got thrown in after we filed bankruptcy. See I didn’t know about his arrears and court order I though he had been taking care of that as the kids came to stay with us for weeks during summers here and there and he was in their lives brought things. Since it was added to the joint pot and we both filed ( my reasons were to strip the 2nd mortgage, stop foreclosure proceedings and get rid of consumer debt )and are married it is under the same umbrella. Now if we divorce, I don’t know if they will tack that to him or somehow split it since the order put on him before we ever got married but he didn’t pay in full over the years. The thing is a lot of the consumer items got thrown out because the child support takes precedent over everything else.

I have life insurance on him that I carry and the life insurance that he pays for goes to his kids if he is in an accident or dies so I don’t why he keeps bring it up. And yes that is what he is implying because he can be such a child sometimes. He had been studying for masters in MFT and is almost done which is ironic to me that we are having so many issues in the marriage. ( he made another career change since the internship part of getting certified takes too long wants to make money now..)I have more insurance on myself than I can even carry on him which I remind him whenever he brings it up. I have decided to split it between him and my nieces and nephew. Since the affair put all of going to them but I don’t een think that legal.. oh well

As far as justifying the affair, ahem friendship…He just says to me that she is a friend that actually cares about him and that I only care about what he provide. I lashed out at him saying that a **** buddy doesn’t care about how you pay YOUR bills duh. Of course I have worry about the bills because for so long you haven’t made enough to help cover them hence the bankruptcy and lack of financial security and now intimacy in the marriage, the gall… The job he is in is notoriously dangerous but I think is he playing it up for sympathy points. It like he is wanting me to say quit its too much… not a chance

As far as the ex wife, we never talked. They were estranged for years because he thought she cheated on him with one of his navy mates and that one of his kids is not his. He never had a paternity test still doubts till this day and paying child support. She will probably say he was not a good provider shucked responsibility. We was in the military and was just a teen when he married and had kids so I suspect there may have been cheating an things on both sides. I never really delved into because by the time I met him he was so far removed from the exwife except for the kids and I was young I just caulked it up to being young and making mistakes. His kids don’t really respect him but they are at the age where they don’t respect anyone and he in some ways deserves it because he hasn’t been the best father though I have tried to encourage him in that area the best I knew how. As they get older they are coming around.

As far as any psychological diagnoses, I cant say he is sociopath or narcissist but I wouldn’t know. I believe that people can overcome anything and I try not to be judgmental and I would like not be sized up in such way either. I am not really into labeling people but his life circumstances provide some clues. He is a only child, grew up not knowing his father and did not have good male role models which suspect had an effect on how he is so I do tend to keep this in mind and try to be patient and help. I am sure he feels the pain of not being able to provide for his kids the 1st marriage failing and what he perceives to be my criticisms of him in the fact that I wont have children with him. I had decided that I didn’t want children later on in the marriage and had issues with my lady bits and he had been informed that it is not a good idea now with the surgery I had and my age. He claims he u/s this but I don’t think he does and that is another issues that could be tying in to his resentment of me.

Anyway, I try to be a good person. But I have my faults I can be self centered and really aloof when it comes to other people’s concerns that I don’t deem important. I can be flippant, dismissive, and uninterested- With him it shows up quite a bit when he is complaining about work or other things because I feel I have to always suck it up and deal I expect the same without all the feedback. I am not as soft hearted as I could be because of how I was brought up and tended to try to control things all the time with the finances and the marriage which is bitting me in the A now…learning though


----------



## Miss Taken

clipclop2 said:


> PS, sorry to hear your story Miss Taken.


No worries clipclop. Luckily my mother didn't have kids with the guy or that would've meant we'd be tied to him for life. Once she got her divorce, we moved across the country and never saw or heard of him again. Anyway, that was almost two decades ago now so all is good.




Allen_A said:


> That's not how waywards think and *everyone here knows that*. *Any wayward would *take that as a green light to act hurtful and disrespectful.. worse than they already are.


Not touching this one with a ten-footer, I already tried.



Allen_A said:


> If you want to communicate to a wayward you won't be there for them, you act that way...
> Communication through action is the only language a wayward pays any attention to.


:iagree: with this.





arandomlady said:


> We cant even get past him lying about the nature of the affair. HE just wants to say he stopped talking to her so lets just move on and I wont.


You can't force him to talk about it sadly. Actually, you shouldn't be trying to force him to do it right now. Engaging him in any way - even if it's about the affair makes you seem like you are clinging on to him - it's still attention aka "ego kibbles" for him though negative. 



alte Dame said:


> FWIW, I agree that his behavior indicates that he has not established NC with the OW. I would assume that going forward.


Agreed.

He is not remorseful and still wants to minimize and blame-shift and lie. So you have to keep detaching like you have been. You're doing a good job with sticking to household/finance discussions for now. Until/unless he comes around, don't initiate discussions about the affair or otherwise. If he is remorseful, he will bring it up. Don't engage him about anything that's not "business related". He needs to see that you're willing to lose him over this. A popular post - "Just Let them Go." may be worth reading on here for you. You're doing a good job at it on your own but the 180 is worth a read, even printing out when you need some reassurance.



arandomlady said:


> I want to play it out as I cant stand to lose on that end as well given the fact I already lost my husband. I am always hopeful he will come around because I think we do love each other but at the same time if its not meant to be then I want compensation before I exit.


This makes sense to me but at the same time, a consultation with a lawyer is worth it – it can’t hurt anything and since most consults are free it will help you fully understand what your rights and recourse is. Being in bankruptcy definitely muddies things.


----------



## arandomlady

alte Dame said:


> FWIW, I agree that his behavior indicates that he has not established NC with the OW. I would assume that going forward.


right- I cant be certain which is why i am not giving an inch.


----------



## arandomlady

Miss Taken said:


> I don't think it's as harmful for them as you interpret it. While he might take it that way, he may also realize that she's saying she won't put up with his sh!t and still be there for him. How I interpret is it's an "emotional divorce". She is not going to give him the sexual, spiritual, emotional, and friendship benefits of marriage so long as he is disrespecting her. Hence the statement - "we're not married." She isn't giving him a free pass to be an ass, just saying she's not going to treat him like her husband when he isn't acting like one.
> 
> Right now it doesn't sound like she can be free of him via a divorce. Given their bankruptcy, she might be stuck with this d0uche for a few years (I hope not) but she needs to see the marriage as dead and over with in order to get through this.
> 
> My abusive step-dad fought my mom tooth and nail over their divorce. It took five years for her/us to be free of the sick bastard. I don't think she needs to feel married to this guy over what he has whittled down to be nothing more than a piece of paper. He threw the marriage away and is now stomping on it like it's garbage by his continued disrespect. Whether she insists on them being married or not is not going to make a difference in how he treats her. Only he can decide what his behaviour will be and right now he's choosing wrong.
> 
> I don't think she should honour any commitments to this man outside of what she is legally bound to financially do until they can divorce or he has a change of heart and *she* wants a reconciliation. Sounds to me like she is 180ing and needs to continue to do so for her own sanity IMO.




Misstaken- agreed. That was my point I am not honoring wifely duties at all. We will be business associates in a joint tenancy...I guess this is a modified 180. The only time the relationship gets mentioned is when he says why wont we do x , or why aren't we being a couple then its when I say because... then argument ensues. I would have filed divorce if for no reason but for a wake call if we weren't in bankruptcy.


----------



## clipclop2

Why not just say " you know why" and walk away from the argument?


----------



## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> Why not just say " you know why" and walk away from the argument?


In so many words I did, said I am not going in circles with him. he got upset saying since we are not communicating he going home ( back to his rental out of state). So his tactic is to just leave and expect me to come after him. I didn't. he drove back 8 hrs and we haven't talked. he tries to get me to pursue him in all kinds of crazy ways. its weird


----------



## Remains

It's not weird, it's manipulation. Him trying to gauge you. Him trying to work out what you are thinking and feeling without having to actually deal with it. Asking, talking, trying to fix it would mean dealing with it. And so instead he is using silly childish tactics to try and smooth the waters. To try and get you back on side. 

I am impressed by your actions.


----------



## arandomlady

Remains said:


> It's not weird, it's manipulation. Him trying to gauge you. Him trying to work out what you are thinking and feeling without having to actually deal with it. Asking, talking, trying to fix it would mean dealing with it. And so instead he is using silly childish tactics to try and smooth the waters. To try and get you back on side.
> 
> I am impressed by your actions.


Remains it seems that way. Just now he is trying to get a response out of me by texting he doesn't want to come back to our marital home since I'm not talking to him because how i yelled at him etc etc and he doesn't want the house anymore. I already gave him a dissolution of marriage proposal on the last visit of what I want if we file and can get approved by bankruptcy trustee. I didn't respond. If he really wants out he can refer to that document and he can figure out how to get out of the marriage by himself. Meanwhile I will be consulting with an atty. No more talking to him, he wants to go there, I will make sure we reach the destination...


----------



## arandomlady

Ok I just re-read the 180, just let them go and ego keebles. Sadly I found I have not quite lived up to the documents in their entirety with a few breaches which it comes to the showing anger and name calling..Anwyay since now wh wants text me to say he doesn't want to come back and doesn't want the house and etc because i wont deal with him, I will take him at his word and proceed accordingly with an atty.


----------



## clipclop2

Does he have anything new to offer our is the same discussion again and again?


----------



## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> Does he have anything new to offer our is the same discussion again and again?


No-That's just it he only wants to rewrite history about our marriage that i wasn't there for him... saying what i have done to him i.e cold shoulder not inviting, we all know why. He is being real manipulative... he is sending a lot of messages and I'm not responding. my father will be in town and he knows this so he is stirring things up. He hadn't ever said he wouldn't come back or that he doesn't want the house so this is the new part. He is expecting a big paycheck at the end of the week so i guess this is why coupled by the fact i wont deal with him on that level...So either he is bluffing or he isn't about not taking care of his responsibilities but I'm not taking any chances now. I am still scheduling things to come from the joint account where his check goes and if it over draws because he is jerk and takes the money out he'll answer to the bankruptcy trustee. my money doesn't go there any more...


----------



## Allen_A

His behavior is typical of the non-remorseful wayward.

They don't have the maturity to restrain themselves from cheating, so they don't have the maturity to repair the damage afterwards either.

All you are getting right now is immature high-school level head games out of him.

Expect that for a while. He does not have the maturity to offer anything else apparently.

Eventually he will have to :

a. be honest
b. be forthright
c. own his behavior
d. offer amends
e. be constructive
f. be productive
g. learn and grow

Right now you aren't going to get that. You are going to get 

a. lies
b. blameshifting
c. erratic behavior
d. tantrums
e. walk outs
f. provocation for fights

He just isn't there yet. He may never get where you need him to be, outlined above.

He's behaving like a child, so you have to treat him like one. Keep him on his time out.

No sex, no talking, no support of any kind until he starts taking ownership. And ownership does not consist of him telling you or expecting you to "get over it."

IT has to be dealt with, and discussed in DETAIL and at LENGTH. That is HOW you maturely get over this as a couple is to face it.

Until he faces IT with a calm owned maturity, you have to just hold him at arms length and ignore his tantrums and ploys.

He has to run the gauntlet of "the infidelity chat" or you end up divorced. That's the only constructive way this works.

MANY spouses are highly resistant to the "infidelity talk gauntlet" and avoids it like a bad rash.

They lie, blameshift, throw tantrums, and when all that fails, they leave in rage.

He has to work through the affair with you, that's the first step, is him calmly discussing it, sharing the talk with you, and owning the damage he's done without any excuses or blame elsewhere.

Once the affair is dealt with by you two as a couple, in detail, then and only then do you discuss marital issues between the two of you. Infidelity is the elephant in the room. He can throw tantrums hoping to intimidate you into ignoring it if he wants to. Just don't respond to them. He has to own that before you can even consider anything else in the marriage being discussed. He has to own his individual failings first.

Just keep him at arms length until he is ready to do that, or until you two are divorced.

He is going to play a lot of head games trying to get AROUND it. Just don't let him into your head until he's ready to walk the gauntlet.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I am still scheduling things to come from the joint account where his check goes and if it over draws because he is jerk and takes the money out he'll answer to the bankruptcy trustee. my money doesn't go there any more...


That's perfect, let the law deal with his tantrums. They aren't going to put up with his immaturity or head games either.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> His behavior is typical of the non-remorseful wayward.
> 
> They don't have the maturity to restrain themselves from cheating, so they do'nt have the maturity to repair the damage afterwards either.
> 
> All you are getting right now is immature high-school level head games out of him.
> 
> Expect that for a while. He does not have the maturity to offer anything else apparently.
> 
> Eventually he will have to :
> 
> a. be honest
> b. be forthright
> c. own his behavior
> d. offer amends
> e. be constructive
> f. be productive
> g. learn and grow
> 
> Right now you aren't going to get that. You are going to get
> 
> a. lies
> b. blameshifting
> c. erratic behavior
> d. tantrums
> e. walk outs
> f. provocation for fights
> 
> He just isn't there yet. He may never get where you need him to be, outlined above.
> 
> He's behaving like a child, so you have to treat him like one. Keep him on his time out.
> 
> No sex, no talking, no support of any kind until he starts taking ownership. And ownership does not consist of him telling you or expecting you to "get over it."
> 
> IT has to be dealt with, and discussed in DETAIL and at LENGTH. That is HOW you maturely get over it.
> 
> Until he faces IT with a calm owned maturity, you have to just hold him at arms length and ignore his tantrums and ploys.
> 
> He has to run the gauntlet of "the infidelity chat" or you end up divorced. That's the only constructive way this works.
> 
> MANY spouses are highly resistant to the "infidelity talk gauntlet" and avoids it like a bad rash.
> 
> He has to work through that with you, that's the first step, is him calmly discussing it, sharing the talk with you, and owning the damage he's done without any excuses or blame elsewhere.
> 
> Just keep him at arms length until he is ready to do that, or until you two are divorced.
> 
> He is going to play a lot of head games trying to get AROUND it. Just don't let him into your head until he's ready to walk the gauntlet.




thanks so much for taking the time to literally spell out the steps of a non remorseful spouse. I had like an inkling of remorse just after the event of the ow showing up when he had agreed to new boundaries but its seems to be contingent on me "getting over it" which i wont do. We are now talking about 2 months with no affection since i had a suspicion of the affair until now.

There is a time lapse between visits and him working out of state so i suspect that is affecting the turnaround in how this is playing out. He is gone more than twice as much he is here and when he is here if I am not treating him nicey nice he gets upset and leaves to go back early sometimes the same day even when he is off several days. I don't go after him and don't call for days after then he calls or text me nonsense. its a pattern. 

I am completely disengaging now that he is telling me he doesn't want to come back or want the house because now its a financial threat that he wont pay his share. Ok fine. he is continuing to play games. Really as long as he pays all of the trustee payments its not the end of world as long as he relinquishes deed to me.

I had said before that i wasn't going to fight over him and I meant it. he is already gone. I have no incentive to give into him at all in fact he as just made my resolve not to even stronger


----------



## clipclop2

Print out the what to expect write up for him. At that point if he didn't change his tune you will know that he isn't clueless about why you feel as you do and what to expect and what he is to do to repair things. Rug sweeping isn't one off those things.

But you dint want him back at all, right? Totally understandable. He is a massive risk anyway.


----------



## Allen_A

clipclop2 said:


> Print out the what to expect write up for him. At that point if he didn't change his tune you will know that he isn't clueless about why you feel as you do and what to expect and what he is to do to repair things. Rug sweeping isn't one off those things.
> 
> But you dint want him back at all, right? Totally understandable. He is a massive risk anyway.


His job setup is high risk for sure. Not to mention his history and maturity level.

He has three strikes against him : 

a. he's a known cheater
b. he's demonstrated a low level of maturity and relationship management as his norm
c. he works away from the home in isolation from his spouse

Any of these is a yellow light... he has three, which in my opinion puts him in the red zone.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I had said before that i wasn't going to fight over him and I meant it. he is already gone. I have no incentive to give into him at all in fact he as just made my resolve not to even stronger


This happens a lot with remorseless waywards... they may end the affair, but they continue to behave in a wayward fashion.

You just have to treat the child like a child until he stops throwing tantrums and pouting.

He has to WANT to repair this. If he goes into it pouting and throwing tantrums it's going to be a tall mountain for him to climb.

He may change his tune if he starts the work. Some do go in pouting but change at some point along the way.

Just stay clear of him until he starts doing the work.

If you have any marriage support/help books like _Not Just Friends_, leave them laying around the home.

He may sneer at them or grumble. Give him time, he may open one up and read a paragraph here or there.

As was pointed out he may need the road pointed at a bit, but do NOT waste a lot of energy navigating for him.

This is a road he has to travel in the drivers seat himself. You cannot navigate this for him or fuel his efforts.

If he wants to repair this, he will stop the pouting and tantrums. Just keep away from him. He may change enough in time, he may not.

You have to keep moving the direction you are going. If he insists on behaving this way he will be in your rear-view mirror eventually.


----------



## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> Print out the what to expect write up for him. At that point if he didn't change his tune you will know that he isn't clueless about why you feel as you do and what to expect and what he is to do to repair things. Rug sweeping isn't one off those things.
> 
> But you dint want him back at all, right? Totally understandable. He is a massive risk anyway.


I already spelled out for him in a really long letter. I will post it below so you can see what i said. I would take him back if he showed remorse and made a real effort.


Z, as you know, a lot has happened since the last time you were home. I have not really spoken to you about it since you have been back to work but need you to fully understand that I am having a lot of unresolved and uneasy feelings about the affair, your lack of remorse, and now the recent visit from x. The whole ordeal is causing me to really question if you truly want to end things with her and work on the marriage. I did not say anything about it though I am really hurting inside because I want you to focus on work 100% while you are there. I’m sure you will agree that you absolutely can’t lose or quit your new job no matter what is going on here or there given the financial situation at hand.

Now that you are home, I need your undivided attention for what I am about to tell you. I am writing this letter rather than verbalize it to hopefully help you understand my point of view. The fact that you behaved so indignant about ending contact with Q is causing a larger divide between us. I feel no sense of love, trust, respect, or safety in this marriage because of everything that has happened and the fact that you still refuse to accept responsibility for the affair or that it even happened.

I cannot stress enough how much I am disturbed with your maintaining the lie that she is just a friend when all evidence is to the contrary and there is a lot of it. She didn’t even deny the affair when I asked. When you tried to end things with her, I find it curious that her thought was to come to our home unannounced and upset… not the actions of a friend to me.. The fact she was able to come straight to the house sickens me. All I can think is how many times has she been here and if she has the gate code. When she got here, you calmly announced to me that she was outside never asked how she got here or anything. It was like a pizza arrived… She was just here almost immediately which is not a surprise given where she lives.

I ‘m actually not surprised that she came here as I am for you letting her in.. I mean you knew she wasn’t coming here to sell Girl Scout cookies but you opened the door- WTF? It’s bad enough that you cheated on me with this woman but to let her into the home we share…I’m speechless. Anything could have happened from this one action. She could have shot or stabbed you or me, had someone with her to beat us up or done who knows what right when you opened the door. I could have overacted and took matters into my own hands because I felt threatened and we all could have had a situation that caused injury or arrest. This hurts because it’s so disrespectful on so many levels, I don’t believe your explanation that you didn’t want her to damage property… 

The whole time the commotion was going on, you did not once have my back at all and sought to lookout for her best interest rather than mine. I was not treated like your wife, she was. It hurts because it was your gut reaction, it was involuntary that you protect her, her feelings and I was secondary in the equation. I think you longed to see her, why else would you have opened the door and took that risk.

When the police officers arrived, they were confused about who was who when they got here because you were so involved with her. This episode showed me in an instant that you cared more about her going to jail than our safety or wellbeing. You let her in our home despite knowing what has been going on between you two and had no regard of what I felt about her being in the home. At one point you actually left her downstairs unattended when she could have literally done anything to hurt us. It was like you were spellbound or something. I have to say, I hated your whole response to situation and for putting me in this postion the fact that you have done nothing to fix it is salt in the wound.

Whether you realize it or not, your actions multiplied the ultimate betrayal I was already experiencing because it’s a testament to where your concern and loyalty is. You may think you know her and can anticipate what she will and will not do but you obviously don’t. She has demonstrated that she is unstable; no one in their right mind would have pulled the kind of stunt if they are thinking clearly. 

Q kept saying because I sent her message so she was simply answering me. No she was manly sending You a message that she won’t be ignored. She had no intention of ever answering me until she couldn’t reach you. She had several days between my message and her showing up here. Hmm what happened in-between that time? Your phone number changed. Don’t think for a second that I don’t know that. Despite what she said, you cannot equate sending an innocuous text/call to someone to her showing up to our house uninvited. 

Please keep in mind I have been faithfully married to you for nearly 12 years so I was highly upset with the situation when I found out what was going on. I wanted to know who this person was so you could not deny knowing them. I had been holding on to her information for quite some time. I actually had no intention of ever contacting her because I am married to you and you took the vows to faithful to me. The fact that you threw it away so easily is really not her fault. 

Still, because you refused to be honest, I contacted her against my own principles because I simply wanted the truth. Even when it became apparent that my worst suspicions were true, I did not show up to her home or job raving like a lunatic… If anyone deserves to feel used and betrayed by this it’s me. How dare you let her in here so she can show me how devastated SHE is by all of this…

Coming here was very bold of her and leads me to think she is trying to control you and to humiliate me. The fact that you allowed her to yell at me in our home and completely disrespect me is a major stumbling block on why I don’t believe you want to move forward. The whole time she was here she was making random miscellaneous comments like saying she is older than me…how would she even know that and why is that a factor unless you made it one.

It had the feel of being taunted by a bully with her trying her best to intimidate me. It was utterly ridiculous and unnecessary. You let her remain comfortably in our home for nearly an hour insulting me when you could have just escorted her out and avoiding any further escalation or simply let her remain outside where she belonged.

When you came upstairs and expected me to kowtow to her because of what she wanted me to do (to come down to her level literally and figuratively) to talk her even as she is disrespecting me in our house, I was flabbergasted! If that was truly her goal, she could have easily called or text me which is the mode of communication that I used when I contacted her in the first place. It was out of line for her to come here unannounced and very disrespectful, point blank. I guess she meant to ambush both of us. I need you to realize that there was no way I was going to allow her to make demands of me when I didn’t sanction her visit. She is the outsider. Just because you made her feel important doesn’t mean I have to as well. Yes I wanted the police involved to fully document her as being an intruder from my point of view since you let her in. 

I heard her say lot of interesting things that made we wonder even as I was trying to give my attention to police dispatcher. The police dispatcher could hear it and even warned about going down to confront her because they wanted to know where everyone was and what they were doing before the officers entered. She told me because was let in by you if anything popped off between you and her or her and I, the participants would be going to jail period.

When this was going on I felt so alone and completely uncared for and unprotected because you were too busy protecting Q worrying about her and her kids. Do you know how this sounds to me? This is all when she is actively threatening us in our home. Seriously I can’t get it out of mind what you said to her and how you acted so heavily in her favor. The police officers actually told me that you haven’t decided what you wanted do to so I best protect myself legally since you didn’t want Q to leave… They were like your husband has not asked her to leave ma’am so we can’t force out your husband’s invited guest…a guest, basically the woman you have been cheating on me with is now a guest in our home, unbelievable!! 

I heard her say it would not be easy for you to let her go and boy I can see that clearly now. 
Insult to injury is the fact that should she decide to do anything else at anytime, she lives minutes away. Awesome. She not only does she know everything about you she obviously has been told things about me so I sure she will time it perfectly…

Trying to overcome the betrayal of the affair itself and the fact that let you Q into our marriage and into our home is taking a lot out of me because you show no empathy, understanding or just basic concern for me. Not once did you ask her to leave even when I was yelling at the police to get her out of here. And she loved it, she was rubbing my nose in the fact that she had your full attention…nevermind that she had for a while now anyway but now I am an actually witness to it. Now you act like this is my doing because you feel I wanted to talk to her so this is what I deserve…BS

Since this has happened I have been having nightmares of her coming back with her family like she threatened and thinking I will have to take the ultimate steps to protect myself. The whole thing replays in a loop in my head with you first letting her into our home and then the commotion of her mocking and taunting me like purposely saying my name wrong over and over, yelling is she is older than me, she’s not from here, she’ll get her family out here, you think it’s so easy to leave her, she knows people in security etc. etc… I can actually still hear the distinct voice. I was already heartbroken with the affair anyway but this pushed my anxiety, distrust, and disappointment of you way over the edge . 

Based on your reaction to Q when she was here, I do not believe you are being truthful with me when you say you are not contacting her. The way to you talk to me about this leaves an impression that you didn’t really want to end things with her in the first place. It’s like the only reason you did it because I asked you, not because you wanted to and knew what you were going was wrong. That’s not good enough. I’m guessing she doesn’t believe it either because your actions seem to indicate you will pick up where you guys left off when things supposedly “cool down” ( which I believe is why she came here by the way). From all appearances she will continue dictating your actions. 

I find it amazing that she has managed to really put the reigns in on you in such a short time and you don’t even realize it. She was actually yelling to me she has nothing against me when she is one screwing you for months when I’m your wife of almost 12 years. Really-what should she have against me, the both of you understood that fact that you were married but did not care. Do you not see the irony in such a statement? You committed adultery, I didn’t know about her at all- NO -we are not equal and I will not behave like we are. 

Bottom-line- with this escalating the way that it has, I won’t accept you keeping secrets from me. I need full disclosure about her and if there are any other women you have been dealing with. I need to know how the affair started, what exactly took place, when and where. What caused you to seek this relationship, why her specifically and what’s to stop you from seeking her out again. What’s to stop you from cheating again...? The affair is a major violation of the marriage vows and is an indication to me that you are not faithful or trustworthy. 

No more denying and lying will be tolerated at this point. You need to be tested for Stds since you are the one who went outside the marriage. Q said that this was no big deal to her so you probably wasn’t the only one she was dealing with… You have broken the feeling of intimacy and safety in the marriage so what now? I don’t even feel safe in our house anymore after all we have done to keep it. It’s amazing how a just a few minutes of craziness can erase the good feelings of fun, safety and security enjoyed here for almost 10 years - it’s that serious.

So I have asked myself numerous times and prayed to God for the strength to try and forgive you and see if we can salvage the marriage but I don’t believe you are in this with me. You still have not acknowledged any wrongdoing or made any attempt to atone for affair. You believe that all have to announce that you’ll stop talking to Q and magically our marriage will be as if nothing happened. Surely, you must know by now that at least for me, all trust, respect, intimacy, safety, romance and everything else has been completely destroyed and is going to have to be restored before I can consider if there will be reconciliation of the marriage. 

What are you going to do about all of this? What steps are YOU going to take to rebuild the marriage? I am not going to do all the work while you stand idly by reluctantly agreeing with me just to make things comfortable. If you are not willing to do so, then that is fine but at least be honest about it and we can dissolve the marriage as previously discussed. I would like your point of view and receive some constructive dialogue on what is the best course of action now that you are home and can focus on the problem. In fact, I expect you to take the lead since your actions ultimately lead us here.

-me

-----------------------------
so when approached me later the next day after he was upset because i had come home after going out for a bit an not telling him where i was or answering his calls the only thing he got out of the leter was the fact that i wanted him to focus on his job while he was there and fact that he cannot lose it no matter what. This allows him to play into a narrative that i only care about financials and not him... never would address the other major components of this which leads me closer than ever to being done..


----------



## Allen_A

woah. I am going to read this over.

But my first impression is there's just too much here for a wayward to digest.

This is heartfelt and forthright for sure.

There is enough in here for him to work with. You have put this before him, so now it's his turn to act like an adult.

This is more than enough effort on your part.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> His job setup is high risk for sure. Not to mention his history and maturity level.
> 
> He has three strikes against him :
> 
> a. he's a known cheater
> b. he's demonstrated a low level of maturity and relationship management as his norm
> c. he works away from the home in isolation from his spouse
> 
> Any of these is a yellow light... he has three, which in my opinion puts him in the red zone.




I know I know. the immaturity level i was used to. the cheating I just became aware of but not sure how long its going on. he just barely started the job away home. this is all so new. the affair was going on before he ever left. I would not have been as shocked if it turns out he met someone there as it was a concern when he took the job, but when I realized e was talking to a woman here it blew my mind and the more i learn about it just makes no sense. I just stopped trying to think about and ask for what is needed but because he is not acknowledging anything its futile.


----------



## arandomlady

I guess the letter to him was too long but I wanted to be absolutely clear to leave no doubt as to how I was feeling because I was a mess after the incident. I have not yet recovered from it. I didn't want there to be a reason he didn't understand and use that as an excuse. Well now its out there and I am getting a whole lot of nothing. back to hard 180. if he doesn't want to come home he doesn't have to I have to keep it moving. his threats are fuel to me at this point.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> -----------------------------
> so when approached me later the next day after he was upset because i had come home after going out for a bit an not telling him where i was or answering his calls the only thing he got out of the leter was the fact that i wanted him to focus on his job while he was there and fact that he cannot lose it no matter what. This allows him to play into a narrative that i only care about financials and not him... never would address the other major components of this which leads me closer than ever to being done..


There were more things there than that. But ya, he's just picking fights to suggest you are some sort of gold digger.

He's just reading what he wants to read, and hearing what he wants to hear. That's typical of the remorseful wayward.

More or less what I said earlier. You can't tell them anything. All you can do is SHOW them.

Do you have any local support? Friends or family members?


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I just stopped trying to think about and ask for what is needed but because he is not acknowledging anything its futile.


Well, he's ashamed, humiliated, and under stress from many angles : 

a. you
b. OW
c. work
d. financial stress

e. whatever issues he had to begin with that lead him to behave the way he does

All of this he has to overcome and act like an adult. It's a huge mountain to climb.. he's been digging himself into a hole for months. Now you are expecting him to climb out of it alone.

That's a tall order.

It' is necessary, as this demonstrates some growth and maturity when he accomplishes this. IF he accomplishes this.

He's going to focus on what he can to attack you. Just ignore it. He's picking fights like a high school drop out.

He has to acknowledge what he's done, but that's a tall order. You can't hold his hand through this, or YOU are doing the work rather than him.

If he wont' do the work, you have to head for the door.

And the good thing is you are in a state where you can at least recognize he's not doing the work, and act on that. You just have to keep doing what you are doing. If he does nothing, he is in your rear view mirror and he knows it.

The letter is long, but what you need is in there. If he can't do the work to read it a few times and find it, then he's not going to make it past all the other hurdles.

Owning the affair is actually the EASY part of the repair work. And he can't even manage that so far.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I guess the letter to him was too long but I wanted to be absolutely clear to leave no doubt as to how I was feeling because I was a mess after the incident. I have not yet recovered from it. I didn't want there to be a reason he didn't understand and use that as an excuse. Well now its out there and I am getting a whole lot of nothing. back to hard 180. if he doesn't want to come home he doesn't have to I have to keep it moving. his threats are fuel to me at this point.


Well, for men, knowing how you feel isn't what we work with. Knowing what to DO is what we are going to act on.

When we break something, we want to FIX it, not talk about how we feel about it's being broken.

But he can fix it.

It's in there.

He needs to stop contacting OW. He needs to apologize. He needs to stop lying. I saw it. It's in there. He needs to be forthright and honest.

It is in there. He just has to read it carefully.

You could spell it out in numbered order for him like I do, but then you are making this easy and doing his work for him.

Heck, he can google affair repair and get half decent advice. This is not rocket science. You don't need to do his homework for him. It's time he passed his own exams on his own merit... If he CAN.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> There were more things there than that. But ya, he's just picking fights to suggest you are some sort of gold digger.
> 
> He's just reading what he wants to read, and hearing what he wants to hear. That's typical of the remorseful wayward.
> 
> More or less what I said earlier. You can't tell them anything. All you can do is SHOW them.
> 
> Do you have any local support? Friends or family members?


 Sadly no. my dad is coming into town tomorrow because he kinda knows things aren't going well in the marriage so he visiting out of concern. My friends do not know because i work with them and i don't want my business to spread. My mother is also out of town and inadvertently became a sounding board when i broke down told her as i had just fond out about 2 months ago. she doesn't know everything. I'm in individual counseling and which is providing some clarity and resolve that i was doing the right thing by pausing the marriage until i see remorse. My homework is to actually stop looking fr remorse from the wh.. thing is i am fine when he is not here. i only have issues when he comes home. I have been using this site as diary or sorts and appreciate all the feedback

the gold digging thing is interesting to me because he never had anything not when we met, not during the marriage, not really even now as this would be the first decent paycheck he has brought in a long long time...for all i know he might sabotage the job and get fired or quit before there can be any real gains with his lastest gig


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Well, for men, knowing how you feel isn't what we work with. Knowing what to DO is what we are going to act on.
> 
> It's in there.
> 
> He needs to stop contacting OW. He needs to apologize. He needs to stop lying. I saw it. It's in there. He needs to be forthright and honest.
> 
> It is in there. He just has to read it carefully.
> 
> You could spell it out in numbered order for him like I do, but then you are making this easy and doing his work for him.
> 
> Heck, he can google affair repair and get half decent advice. This is not rocket science. You don't need to do his homework for him. It's time he passed his own exams on his own merit... If he CAN.


and that is the problem because he wont even call it for what it is he only want to tell me the problems I caused or causing not addressing what he is has done is doing right now. itslike being n the twilight zone where someone just refuses to see and acknowledge what is apparent to everyone else


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## Allen_A

It took me all of thirty seconds to find this : 

How to Rebuild Your Spouse's Trust After an Affair: 10 Steps

He can do this. He does not need you to do any more of his home work. That letter was more than enough of an olive branch for him.

If he can't bother crawling out of the hole he's made, you have to walk away and leave him in it.

He can climb out of this on his own, and he NEEDS to climb out on his own.

You won't be there 24 x 7. You need to know he can make mature choices on his own. This is the test.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Well, he's ashamed, humiliated, and under stress from many angles :
> 
> a. you
> b. OW
> c. work
> d. financial stress
> 
> e. whatever issues he had to begin with that lead him to behave the way he does
> 
> All of this he has to overcome and act like an adult. It's a huge mountain to climb.. he's been digging himself into a hole for months. Now you are expecting him to climb out of it alone.
> 
> That's a tall order.
> 
> It' is necessary, as this demonstrates some growth and maturity when he accomplishes this. IF he accomplishes this.
> 
> He's going to focus on what he can to attack you. Just ignore it. He's picking fights like a high school drop out.
> 
> He has to acknowledge what he's done, but that's a tall order. You can't hold his hand through this, or YOU are doing the work rather than him.
> 
> If he wont' do the work, you have to head for the door.
> 
> And the good thing is you are in a state where you can at least recognize he's not doing the work, and act on that. You just have to keep doing what you are doing. If he does nothing, he is in your rear view mirror and he knows it.
> 
> The letter is long, but what you need is in there. If he can't do the work to read it a few times and find it, then he's not going to make it past all the other hurdles.
> 
> Owning the affair is actually the EASY part of the repair work. And he can't even manage that so far.



The counselor said the same thing and doesn't want me to do anything because i tend to be a doer and when wh doesn't do something then normally i am stepping in to get the thing done. i realize created a monster and i cant do that here. i wont.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> Sadly no. ..


Consider inviting a friend to stay with you who has the self assurance to tell him off if he misbehaves. If he doesn't like her there, too bad, she's a GUEST.

I honestly don't understand why he even visits. I'd ask him to hand over the key and stay out.



arandomlady said:


> My homework is to actually stop looking fr remorse from the wh.. thing is i am fine when he is not here. i only have issues when he comes home. I have been using this site as diary or sorts and appreciate all the feedback


If you LOOK for remorse, you will imagine remorse where there is none. I don't know how many men or women claim their spouse is remorseful because they cry. Well.. those tears could be stress.. those tears could be withdrawl from ENDING an affair. Is he crying because he is remorseful or because he misses OW? You have to step back and wait to see if he drinks the water himself.



arandomlady said:


> the gold digging thing is interesting to me because he never had anything not when we met, not during the marriage, not really even now as this would be the first decent paycheck he has brought in a long long time...for all i know he might sabotage the job and get fired or quit before there can be any real gains with his latest gig


Well, this all depends on how well he's demonstrated to hold a job thus far. If he can't keep a job, well.. I am not surprised. Marriage IS a job. And he's messed that one up.

I suspect the gold digging commentary is just him deflecting. This is part of immature behavior. Rather than OWNING HIS behavior, he changes the subject and challenges yours. It's a childish attempt to take the spotlight OFF HIM. He does not like the heat.

Ignore his deflection. That's my take on what it is anyhow. He just wants to criticize you so he feels less of a jerk.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> and that is the problem because he wont even call it for what it is he only want to tell me the problems I caused or causing not addressing what he is has done is doing right now. itslike being n the twilight zone where someone just refuses to see and acknowledge what is apparent to everyone else


HE is in the twilight zone. HE is avoiding the reality of the situation. You just have to face the reality and NOT fall into his Disneyland world in his head.

Let him pout and hang around in Disneyland all he wants to. He will have to deal with reality eventually. On his own most likely.


Don't press him to own it. He knows by now he has to own it.

Just don't show any cards. He has to think you know 100% of the truth. He needs to know he can't play the deception game any more and win. Once he knows that, all he has left is the truth. Don't ever let on you don't know what's going on in his world. Just hold him accountable and wait it out.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> The counselor said the same thing and doesn't want me to do anything because i tend to be a doer and when wh doesn't do something then normally i am stepping in to get the thing done. i realize created a monster and i cant do that here. i wont.


The thing is, if YOU do his homework for him, he is cheating again already.

That's what cheating is... leaving YOU alone to do the work while HE benefits from it.

Affairs don't happen in a vaccum. He's been stealing 10 - 40 hours a week OUT of the marriage to have an affair. If you do the work now, he's just cheating you again right in front of you.

You need to know he can do his own homework. You need to know when your back is turned that he will DO the WORK HIMSELF.

If he an only act like an adult when you hold his hand and help him, then you have to watch him 24 x 7. And you know that's not a marriage you want to live with.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Consider inviting a friend to stay with you who has the self assurance to tell him off if he misbehaves. If he doesn't like her there, too bad, she's a GUEST.
> 
> I honestly don't understand why he even visits. I'd ask him to hand over the key and stay out.
> 
> 
> 
> If you LOOK for remorse, you will imagine remorse where there is none. I don't know how many men or women claim their spouse is remorseful because they cry. Well.. those tears could be stress.. those tears could be withdrawl from ENDING an affair. Is he crying because he is remorseful or because he misses OW? You have to step back and wait to see if he drinks the water himself.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, this all depends on how well he's demonstrated to hold a job thus far. If he can't keep a job, well.. I am not surprised. Marriage IS a job. And he's messed that one up.
> 
> I suspect the gold digging commentary is just him deflecting. This is part of immature behavior. Rather than OWNING HIS behavior, he changes the subject and challenges yours. It's a childish attempt to take the spotlight OFF HIM. He does not like the heat.
> 
> Ignore his deflection. That's my take on what it is anyhow. He just wants to criticize you so he feels less of a jerk.



He has been coming home of his own volition since this thing has been going on and trying to act like things are just fine much too my chargin. Only now is he saying he wont anymore and doesn't want the house because i haven't given in on the affection and getting over it. don't want to come back Ok then. no response from me because i didn't tell him to come here anyway. the deflections are numerous and continuous at this point very immature..

The remorse thing I get now because it is missing its triggering me to be upset when he tries to act like a couple when he comes here then gets mad when he is rebuffed and i am all the while thinking we are not okay you are not remorseful at all...do not come near me or try to talk to me until you can talk about what we need to talk about. I don't want to see or talk to him until this can be done

about a friend coming here i live in an exciting city it wouldn't be hard i just don't have anyone that i am close to in that way that could help me. one of my issues is getting close to people when it comes to my personal life. i am friends to certain level and its crippling me now because i haven't told them the deal with the marriage. i guess i am hoping we can resolve before they ever know.. sad i know


----------



## Allen_A

Well.. isolating yourself is not a healthy thing for you. You ought to let marriage friendly friends in.. maybe one or two.. IF they can be trusted to remain friends to the marriage as a whole.

If they are just going to hate on him and rant and rave, don't risk it.

He's hoping he can charm you into ignoring his offenses. That's all he's doing.

Threats doesn't work
Lying doesn't work
Pretending nothing happened doesn't work
Blaming you doesn't work
Him playing hard to get doesn't work
Pouting doesn't work

He will try charm then..

NONE of this is a mature strategy for solving this.

Eventually he will run out of ideas other than telling the truth.

You will likely be gone before he gets there.

He is trying to fix this, but his strategies aren't going to win him any husband of the year prizes.

Just hold out until he offers you maturity. That's the only way to ring the bell.


----------



## alte Dame

He's been having an affair for months. It's very likely that he is still in it. He already lives 8 hours away. You are OK when he is gone, but upset when he is home.

180 completely. Help the detachment along. He won't even acknowledge his betrayal. What's the use of continuing to try at all?

180 and rebuild your life. Reach out a bit to friends. People are usually kinder than we expect.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Well.. isolating yourself is not a healthy thing for you. You ought to let marriage friendly friends in.. maybe one or two.. IF they can be trusted to remain friends to the marriage as a whole.
> 
> If they are just going to hate on him and rant and rave, don't risk it.
> 
> He's hoping he can charm you into ignoring his offenses. That's all he's doing.
> 
> Threats doesn't work
> Lying doesn't work
> Pretending nothing happened doesn't work
> Blaming you doesn't work
> Him playing hard to get doesn't work
> Pouting doesn't work
> 
> He will try charm then..
> 
> NONE of this is a mature strategy for solving this.
> 
> Eventually he will run out of ideas other than telling the truth.
> 
> You will likely be gone before he gets there.
> 
> He is trying to fix this, but his strategies aren't going to win him any husband of the year prizes.
> 
> Just hold out until he offers you maturity. That's the only way to ring the bell.


I'm not exactly in isolation just haven't disclosed friends but point taken. I can blather my while life on here but to do it one on one with friends who knows me and him.. makes me feel icky about how they might handle it or even how i will handle their handling...lol

I have been getting out trying o meet new people and even will be signing up for yoga . I have even signed up for a friendship site for ladies and trying to get something going there.

He is still texting me a we speak to get a response... its just like your list to a tee...now he is saying he doesn't know when he will be able to talk to me again because of his rotation for the next week or so... OH i guess i should be chomping at the bit to talk to hm while i can...NOT i feel childish ignoring him but i have to since he has brought the maturity to 8th grade level


----------



## alte Dame

arandomlady - 

All of the drama surrounding this distracts from the basic problem, which is his betrayal. It's not her behavior at your house or his attempts to get your attention.

If you keep bringing him around to that when you talk, then he will either have to confront it or retreat.

If you follow the 180, you should be able to limit the amount you talk or read his texts quite a bit.


----------



## arandomlady

alte Dame said:


> He's been having an affair for months. It's very likely that he is still in it. He already lives 8 hours away. You are OK when he is gone, but upset when he is home.
> 
> 180 completely. Help the detachment along. He won't even acknowledge his betrayal. What's the use of continuing to try at all?
> 
> 180 and rebuild your life. Reach out a bit to friends. People are usually kinder than we expect.


I am getting there with the disclosure and trying to rebuild too its just a matter of who i can trust with this. there really isnt much of trying on my part as there is inaction because of the issues i talked about. I am being propelled to seek legal advice because of financial implications. Its hurtful its seems like a game to him. I have a tough road ahead regardless and seems like as usual he is on easy street with no worries...


----------



## arandomlady

alte Dame said:


> arandomlady -
> 
> All of the drama surrounding this distracts from the basic problem, which is his betrayal. It's not her behavior at your house or his attempts to get your attention.
> 
> If you keep bringing him around to that when you talk, then he will either have to confront it or retreat.
> 
> If you follow the 180, you should be able to limit the amount you talk or read his texts quite a bit.


That- being the affair that he doesn't admit to and then proceeds to go on about how she is a friend that cares and I'm not. right i know its not about her it was about his actions when she was here that was disrespectful towards me and this is why there is an argument while he is here then he leaves because he doesn't like my holding his feet to the fire and at same time not giving in, pretty draining. hopefully he will keep to his latest word and not come back here so i wont even have to deal with him. i cant legally keep him out his house too.


----------



## happy as a clam

ARL,

Cut that letter down to about 3 paragraphs, then give it to him. Then keep the long version for yourself so YOU can re-read it at those times when he is trying to lay a guilt trip on you.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> OH i guess i should be chomping at the bit to talk to hm while i can...NOT i feel childish ignoring him but i have to since he has brought the maturity to 8th grade level


You aren't ignoring him, you are _protecting yourself_.


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## arandomlady

happy as a clam said:


> ARL,
> 
> Cut that letter down to about 3 paragraphs, then give it to him. Then keep the long version for yourself so YOU can re-read it at those times when he is trying to lay a guilt trip on you.



Good Idea, he is still texting me for a response but not responding until he sends something meaningful. Then I will cut to the last couple of paragraphs and revamp to reiterate my stance. That was the unabridged version - immediately after it happened I didn't edit for the reader propbably didn't get the "to dos"


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> You aren't ignoring him, you are _protecting yourself_.


I know right-He is now texting how can this be resolve if I wont talk. I wont entertain talking now he had 4 days off but choose to leave the first day, not my problem. Now that my father is here as I am spending time with him and not focusing on wh.
He hates not hearing from me but I wont respond until I get something meaningful and even then I will simply reiterate what I said at the end of the letter.


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## arandomlady

Weekly Update- need help implementing the 180

Since my last post I have:
Reset the 180
talked with an atty- is recommending waiting out till ch 13 bankruptcy successfully discharged live separated 
Upgraded my gun (courtesy of Dad)
had a chakra/energy evaluation- was told I had severe blockage with lots of anger and negative repressed emotion...
Joined yoga class for stress relieve and get in tune with emotions


Its that time for him to come home again so now I am getting text that he wants to come home and go out like a date night. The last time he came we had an argument and he left several days early I did not follow... I have only been talking to him about finances. He is pressing me for an answer about going out making a weekend of it... of course like we are all good.

I have not responded about that and do not want to go anywhere with him let alone see him. Anyone know how I should respond to this with the 180 way? The last time I yelled and cursed about how I am not going to be a wife to him given everything that has happened due to the fact that no remorse or acknowledgement. 

I feel like I am coming from a place of negativity when he seems to be doing a manipulative 180 of sorts on me which is to just proceed as if there was no affair or anything. I haven't brought it up as he hasn't as per the 180 rules but damn this is hard

I am considering cutting my losses financially as it is taking a lot of energy to remain in limbo and I feel I am losing out because he could still be maintaining contact with ow while I am have no one in the wings... not to say that I should build inventory while I'm still marriage to him but , well maybe I think I should.. thinking about just telling I want to see other people... though that's probably not a good idea for real. this is so unfair feel like I do not have any kind of an edge here


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## clipclop2

Tell him not to come home. 

I had to laugh about the anger and negative repressed emotion. You didn't need anyone to tell you that!

His idea is to rug sweep. You can't go on a date with someone who cheated on you and won't take responsibility. If some guy you were dating cheated on you there is no way you would be all giddy to have an evening of dinner and dancing with him. You would tell him to duck off. You have better ways to spend your time than to be treated like garbage and expect to be happy for another chance! Does he think the burden on him is any lower because you are married? The burden is higher because the betrayal is so much more intense. He chose to assault you and expects you to turn the other cheek, 

Ok. You can do that.

Turn the other cheek and say " kiss my ass"!

Seriously, tell him you have no room in your life for rug sweeping cheaters. Life is precious and you aren't going to waste another moment on a loser who takes you for a fool. 

He has been a financial disaster and an emotional disaster. What did he have planned for your date night? A plague of locusts?


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## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> Tell him not to come home.
> 
> I had to laugh about the anger and negative repressed emotion. You didn't need anyone to tell you that!
> 
> His idea is to rug sweep. You can't go on a date with someone who cheated on you and won't take responsibility. If some guy you were dating cheated on you there is no way you would be all giddy to have an evening of dinner and dancing with him. You would tell him to duck off. You have better ways to spend your time than to be treated like garbage and expect to be happy for another chance! Does he think the burden on him is any lower because you are married? The burden is higher because the betrayal is so much more intense. He chose to assault you and expects you to turn the other cheek,
> 
> Ok. You can do that.
> 
> Turn the other cheek and say " kiss my ass"!
> 
> Seriously, tell him you have no room in your life for rug sweeping cheaters. Life is precious and you aren't going to waste another moment on a loser who takes you for a fool.
> 
> He has been a financial disaster and an emotional disaster. What did he have planned for your date night? A plague of locusts?



I didn't know what to say so I ignored his text and continued about mylife. he came home anyway. I have been avoiding him and he cornered me to say "he's sorry for hurting me" I asked him to elaborate. he just kept saying what he did was wrong and seems like he is trying to blameshift to the ow. I advised him that its unacceptable to even mention her as she is not in the marriage. he keeps bring up the fact that he is "here" and doing the best me can to "fight for me" I don't even know what that means. I told him that kind of apologize doesn't match the offense and that he hasn't shown me anything and words wont do.

So no, I will not be entertaining any dates or anything of the sort. no histerical bonding will be occurring here... honestly it upsets me that he thinks an apology is all that's needed. really. oh well better than lying I guess


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## clipclop2

He is a little boy. They don't understand that the word sorry is insufficient. Saying sorry is the least he can do and that is exactly what he is doing. Pathetic.


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## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> He is a little boy. They don't understand that the word sorry is insufficient. Saying sorry is the least he can do and that is exactly what he is doing. Pathetic.


I know, I know and its not going to work. I have explicitly told him not to come home before and it didn't work so now I don't bother because I don't want him to then say he doesn't have a reason to invest anything here and stop paying the mortgage and other bills. he is making a lot more than me now so I have been saving a lot more of my money and slowly using more and more of his to pay the bills as his income increases. 

I don't feel the slightest bit shady about it either. Since I am not sure how long he is going to go along with not getting anything from me in the wifely way, I am trying to get while the getting is good. Its crazy that I am living in a shell of a marriage just to recoup money I have put into it but it is what it is. I am more practical than anything. I justify it because I say I have forgiven him so I can live with it but it doesn't mean I have unpaused the marriage since no remorse. He is not let off the hook. we are in the ch 13 and for a couple more years and its not going to be cheap to try to divorce with that looming. 

then again, I think he could still be dealing with the ow and could justify that by saying he is paying me off so to speak even though we are not a couple. Its a mess. I think sometimes I could be single again so I might just pull the plug but before I decide I would like more of a $ cushion. I am working on myself for me anyway though he is getting the benefit of my patience and kindness for now and fact we are tied together by the bankruptcy.

So now he is on the 1st level of the home and I am on the 3rd worlds apart as usual. I am rambling.just talking it out here ..the bottomline is if he stops paying then I wont hesitate to divorce. if he initiates divorce and I keep the house I will agree.
If I get tired of this situation eventually and he doesn't come around even if he is paying his way and I have enough $ I will probably move on... which may well prove his point-I am about all about the $...

What he doesn't seem to realize is that I am all about trying to get past this thing if he really wanted to work on it. But I am not lifting a finger so still at am impasse.


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## Cynthia

What would he have to do for you to be willing to reconcile?


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## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> What would he have to do for you to be willing to reconcile?


For starters he could show some remorse and empathy for how I am feeling and be regrettful for what he has done to the marriage. He hasn't taken ownership for what has happened. He hasn't really shown any indicators that he is willing to work on the marriage. the only thing he has gone as of yesterday is to admit to the affair ( which was obvious) and apologize for hurting me. I don't feel it.

As far as tue remorse and repentance, I will know it when I see it but I am not going to take a crumb and making it into a feast if you know what I mean. there has to be consistent measurable changes on his part and willingness for transparency and miscellaneous other things before we can even come close to me making a step in the direction of R. 

Part of me even wonders if I really want to reconcile at all or is it a lost cause. honestly its a day by day change of feeling of what I want to do. the consistent thing is I am not being a wife to him, I don't have any feeling for him in that way and what if they never return...I cant believe I have spent so much time on this man a good bit of adult life do I want to spend another second starting to wonder


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## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> For starters he could show some remorse and empathy for how I am feeling and be regrettful for what he has done to the marriage. He hasn't taken ownership for what has happened. He hasn't really shown any indicators that he is willing to work on the marriage. the only thing he has gone as of yesterday is to admit to the affair ( which was obvious) and apologize for hurting me. I don't feel it.


It sounds like he is acting like he broke your favorite tea pot or something, rather than betraying you on a deep level. That adds hurt onto the hurt. This shows that he has a real disconnect regarding how badly he messed up.


arandomlady said:


> As far as true remorse and repentance, I will know it when I see it but I am not going to take a crumb and making it into a feast if you know what I mean. there has to be consistent measurable changes on his part and willingness for transparency and miscellaneous other things before we can even come close to me making a step in the direction of R.


When a person has a true change of heart, they are different in how they related to others. Their attitudes, words and behaviors are different. If everything is the same, then you can be pretty sure that person hasn’t made a shift in their thinking to bring about true remorse and repentance.


arandomlady said:


> Part of me even wonders if I really want to reconcile at all or is it a lost cause. honestly its a day by day change of feeling of what I want to do. the consistent thing is I am not being a wife to him, I don't have any feeling for him in that way and what if they never return...I cant believe I have spent so much time on this man a good bit of adult life do I want to spend another second starting to wonder


That’s probably because he has not shown that he is a man that you want to spend the rest of your life with. When a spouse cheats, everything changes. The relationship is no long the same. It’s not like starting over. It’s like starting with someone you don’t even like and trying to get to a place of love and trust. It is the cheating spouse that has to make those changes in order for things to improve.
Have you explained to him that you do not see a recognition of the deeply evil thing he did and how different your relationship is now?


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## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> It sounds like he is acting like he broke your favorite tea pot or something, rather than betraying you on a deep level. That adds hurt onto the hurt. This shows that he has a real disconnect regarding how badly he messed up.
> 
> When a person has a true change of heart, they are different in how they related to others. Their attitudes, words and behaviors are different. If everything is the same, then you can be pretty sure that person hasn’t made a shift in their thinking to bring about true remorse and repentance.
> 
> That’s probably because he has not shown that he is a man that you want to spend the rest of your life with. When a spouse cheats, everything changes. The relationship is no long the same. It’s not like starting over. It’s like starting with someone you don’t even like and trying to get to a place of love and trust. It is the cheating spouse that has to make those changes in order for things to improve.
> Have you explained to him that you do not see a recognition of the deeply evil thing he did and how different your relationship is now?


Yes everytime he brings up the relationship and want to act like a couple. the first night he was home he said sorry etc and i asked him to elaborate to see if he would admit/acknoledge he kinda sorta did. when i presed for details it was blameshifting on ow and me so i told him he is not sorry and to leave. he didnt.

2nd night which was last night he again asked if i wantd to go out..like NO and he knows why...later same night he wanted me to watch tv. i explained i am not confortable being around him. why. then began texting how i dont care about him and the at least the ow does. i told him to go be with her no one told him to come here and he thinks she is the bees knees so... 

Whats disturbs me is that he is defiant actually opposite of remorse though he thinks is is showing he is sorry. i agreehe is sorry alright. i beleive he is now talking to the ow on his work cell and think he may have seen her while he was here as he came home a day earlier yet i did not see him at all.

during the text war he had the nerve to bring up sex and how we havent in forever like thats the justification nevermind that while he was having the affair it was normal as i did not know and of course i am sick with the thought now. we havent since i suspected going on 3 months ago and have no desire towards him


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## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> during the text war he had the nerve to bring up sex and how we havent in forever like thats the justification nevermind that while he was having the affair it was normal as i did not know and of course i am sick with the thought now. we havent since i suspected going on 3 months ago and have no desire towards him


Did you tell him that and that you feel very sad and betrayed and are deeply grieving over what he has done to you and your marriage?
I'm sorry he's so shameless in his hurtful ways. {{{hugs}}} to you.
What are you doing to care for yourself? I'm sorry, I don't remember if you said that you have friends helping you and loving on your or not.


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## Allen_A

He's not committing. He's not trying.

All he's doing is acting like nothing happened.

That is not remorse, that is not reconciliation, that is not repair.

As long as OW is involved in his life in any way, your marriage is in subsistence, worse, it will continue to deteriorate.

The facts are pretty clear

a. he cheats
b. he refuses to own it
c. when you are threatened he protects OW instead
d. his relationship management strategies are at teenager level - sex, go out, watch TV are not solutions
e. he refuses to act transparent
f. rather than respecting your need for space when you ask him to leave he digs his heels in place 
g. threat of OW still hovers around like a bad smell

While this third party intruder hovers about, you can try and work with your husband and his immature resolution strategies, or you can exit gracefully.

In my opinion it's just a slow and wasteful deteriorating household situation. Below subsistence.

Plan your exit.


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## WhiteRaven

It's D time lady. He didn't hesitate to replace you. Why don't you do the same to him?


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## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> Did you tell him that and that you feel very sad and betrayed and are deeply grieving over what he has done to you and your marriage?
> I'm sorry he's so shameless in his hurtful ways. {{{hugs}}} to you.
> What are you doing to care for yourself? I'm sorry, I don't remember if you said that you have friends helping you and loving on your or not.


There isnt a lack of communciation on my part about the betryal and disrespect. He was told written and verbal. I am not one to hold my toungue or feelings once he brings it up. Unfortunately his actions to me are that he doesnt care obviously.

As for myself, I am doing better than before under the circumstances. My parents know and 1 friend but I havent told them the full extent of it. I am still in ic, going to yoga, and making new friends and hobbies. I am looking "pretty, pretty good" as Larry David would say. lol At work everyone wants to know what i'm doing...its nice.


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## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> He's not committing. He's not trying.
> 
> All he's doing is acting like nothing happened.
> 
> That is not remorse, that is not reconciliation, that is not repair.
> 
> As long as OW is involved in his life in any way, your marriage is in subsistence, worse, it will continue to deteriorate.
> 
> The facts are pretty clear
> 
> a. he cheats
> b. he refuses to own it
> c. when you are threatened he protects OW instead
> d. his relationship management strategies are at teenager level - sex, go out, watch TV are not solutions
> e. he refuses to act transparent
> f. rather than respecting your need for space when you ask him to leave he digs his heels in place
> 
> While this third party intruder hovers about, you can try and work with your husband and his immature resolution strategies, or you can exit gracefully.
> 
> In my opinion it's just a slow and wasteful deteriorating household situation. Below subsistence.
> 
> Plan your exit.


Love the list, helps to really identify the issues. Absolutely right fully agreed 1000%. I want to be clear I havent changed anything and I am not trying to R. (Repeat) I am not trying to R. Just because i havent filed D doesnt mean its R time. I dont think its determental that hurry up and D because

1. Both still in ch 13 bankrupcy and would need 2 attys each to address the d and the bankrupcy- not cost effective
2. I Need to save more money and take advantage of his new position of higher income and replenishing MY funds for my separate account. 
3. I need to build myself up for the future and work thru my issues and its not like i can just go out and be in a new relationship now anyway. when i am ready to be done, i'll be ready as i can be though no one call fully be for this

I am saving money and making sure he pays most of everything so I can really get larger nest egg while he is still willing to pay eventhough there is no play.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> Love the list, helps to really identify the issues. Absolutely right fully agreed 1000%. I want to be clear I havent changed anything and I am not trying to R. (Repeat) I am not trying to R. Just because i havent filed D doesnt mean its R time. I dont think its determental that hurry up and D because


I hear you. Plan first, act second.



arandomlady said:


> 1. Both still in ch 13 bankrupcy and would need 2 attys each to address the d and the bankrupcy- not cost effective
> 2. I Need to save more money and take advantage of his new position of higher income and replenishing MY funds for my separate account.
> 3. I need to build myself up for the future and work thru my issues and its not like i can just go out and be in a new relationship now anyway. when i am ready to be done, i'll be ready as i can be though no one call fully be for this
> 
> I am saving money and making sure he pays most of everything so I can really get larger nest egg while he is still willing to pay eventhough there is no play.


Question though.

Isn't anything you save just going to be split with him anyways?

I always thought there wasn't any point in squirreling away funds pre-divorce since your spouse is just going to get half of anything you save anyways.

Have you confirmed with your lawyer that your saving money is going to go into YOUR pocket rather than his?

I would hate to see you save a nestegg only to have to hand half of it over to this cheater.


----------



## arandomlady

WhiteRaven said:


> It's D time lady. He didn't hesitate to replace you. Why don't you do the same to him?


Yes, I can see that-I'm no fool but i must be strategic. I'm not sure if you followed posts from the begining but h is just now making good money and I am trying to recoup what I can monetarily BEFORE i make any moves. Sure i could run to get 2 separate attys ( see above response) and lose my shirt in fees to in trying to be first to D but to what end? 

While I might be able to be free of him sooner, i'll also be the one in the poor house. I am in no hurry to get a new man and be completely broke in process. We are in a no fault community property state and i dont have children so there is no penalty for adultery anyway so i would lose if rush to D. 

Like I said before, I realize he is gone already and believe that dispite all that has hapened he is still dealing with the ow. However, he doesnt have me though he thinks he might does because I havent filed. Which is why he is trying high school tricks to move things along. little does he know, just like he could act and fool me that he was committed, i can play along until I am good and prepared to go out with a bang.

Like said, I want whats mine monetarily and will get it back by making him pay while the guilt is there and he is willing...

Now if he stops paying, all bets are off. He may be an immature boy but he knows this for a fact which is why he is paying though he threats not to at times. We are not in a martial relationship right now and havent been for months.

This may seem shallow but Im against a rock and hard place anyway so I intend to use whatever i can to my advantage since I was the one betrayed


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> I hear you. Plan first, act second.
> 
> 
> 
> Question though.
> 
> Isn't anything you save just going to be split with him anyways?
> 
> I always thought there wasn't any point in squirreling away funds pre-divorce since your spouse is just going to get half of anything you save anyways.
> 
> Have you confirmed with your lawyer that your saving money is going to go into YOUR pocket rather than his?
> 
> I would hate to see you save a nestegg only to have to hand half of it over to this cheater.



on consult atty recommend no d until bk discharged as they will then want to look at both or our incomes again to revise the plan and we will both end up paying more as more of the discharged debts will be tacked on. d atty seems to let B atty lead and says we can draft own disolution agreement between ourselves and court will likely rubber stamp as long as bk creditors get paid per plan. because he now grossing nearly twice what i am now h is feeling like the big shot for once. i have already proposed how to divide the assets should we go fwd so that part wont be hard as we dont own anythng except cars and house is underwater anyway but i was able to get a 2% rate. assumming we d, h has no ties here so i cnt see him contesting i stay in it


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> This may seem shallow but Im against a rock and hard place anyway so I intend to use whatever i can to my advantage since I was the one betrayed


As long as you are sure legally this is not going to bite you in the arse I think it's a great plan.

I hear you. No point in leaving a marriage broke while he's raking in cash.

You want to have something to show for your exit.

My only worry is if he finds out, he may end up just taking it all somehow.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> on consult atty recommend no d until bk discharged as they will then want to look at both or our incomes again to revise the plan and we will both end up paying more as more of the discharged debts will be tacked on. d atty seems to let B atty lead and says we can draft own disolution agreement between ourselves and court will likely rubber stamp as long as bk creditors get paid per plan. because he now grossing nearly twice what i am now h is feeling like the big shot for once. i have already proposed how to divide the assets should we go fwd so that part wont be hard as we dont own anythng except cars and house is underwater anyway but i was able to get a 2% rate. assumming we d, h has no ties here so i cnt see him contesting i stay in it


Sounds good to me!

:smthumbup:


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> As long as you are sure legally this is not going to bite you in the arse I think it's a great plan.
> 
> I hear you. No point in leaving a marriage broke while he's raking in cash.
> 
> You want to have something to show for your exit.
> 
> My only worry is if he finds out, he may end up just taking it all somehow.


There is no there, there. He knows he has messed us up so much financially we have to make up for lost time and earnings that got us into this mess. What is on my side is he trust me to handle the money. I pay the bills as he cant be bothered, never has. My guess is that he believes i wont do anything to hurt our financial situation plus because i havent filed in his mind we are good to go...he is right because its to my advantage the bk goes smooth and my mortgage gets paid by him and not me ...See he thinks this will all blow over at some point so he will pay with no play for now...

For me, this is a blessing and curse because fact he thinks i wont leave ( file D) he wont do what is needed to improve the marriage as quickly as I would like or at all. at the same time though, i intent to use this trust to build what i need monetarily to be in a better position to leave the marriage under the guise of giving him a chance should he chose not to come around to remorse etc. which technically i am. 

So I am making the best use of the limbo. Using this time to continue working on myself still not unpausing the marriage and trying to be better a person all around. To him, I am right now the hurt wife who is afraid of trying something new. he was my first. he thinks I'm naive and though he is right on some levels i am. on others however he will find out I am not depending on how things go. i am all about 2nd chances and forgivness if appriopriate and I am all about setting things right for the exit if that doesnt happen in the timeline i'm confortable with.

I hope this makes sense. trying to be anyalitical about a very emotional situation


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> There isnt a lack of communciation on my part about the betryal and disrespect. He was told written and verbal. I am not one to hold my toungue or feelings once he brings it up. Unfortunately his actions to me are that he doesnt care obviously.
> 
> As for myself, I am doing better than before under the circumstances. My parents know and 1 friend but I havent told them the full extent of it. I am still in ic, going to yoga, and making new friends and hobbies. I am looking "pretty, pretty good" as Larry David would say. lol At work everyone wants to know what i'm doing...its nice.


Unfortunately he seems to be very heard hearted. You have done everything you can to break through to him and he is still treating you like your feelings are secondary. It is so sad how people can do this to the ones who love them. I'm glad you are not keeping it in, but are expressing to him the truth. Whether he accepts it or not is his choice, but you have done your part.
This is good that you are taking care of yourself and reaching out. This will help you move past the way your husband is treating you.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> Unfortunately he seems to be very heard hearted. You have done everything you can to break through to him and he is still treating you like your feelings are secondary. It is so sad how people can do this to the ones who love them. I'm glad you are not keeping it in, but are expressing to him the truth. Whether he accepts it or not is his choice, but you have done your part.
> This is good that you are taking care of yourself and reaching out. This will help you move past the way your husband is treating you.


Yes he is definitely hard hearted in the fog or whatever. he keeps saying the ow is in relationship engaged and will be moving soon so there is nothing to worry about . I explained to him AGAIN its not her that I am concerned with. He sought out an outside relationship and he needs to get tested for stds, figure out why he did it and what it is going to take to help me feel like a wife again. Still its like he is trying to say SHE is the problem. 

I reminded him that he CHOSE to have a relationship with ow. He put great effort into building that relationship and keeping it from me so he can figure out how to fix his one if he is so inclined. I am not going to do anything except investing time and effort in myself as he is not showing to be a worthy husband. 

He is acting like he has done all he can when he has done NOTHING and even said he thinks he rather be alone. I said fine "do you" like you have been anyway because its not any different than whats been going on with him having this side person to make him happy.

This train wont stop regardless. I have my plans in place that will be implemented based on several contingencies as I stated before. If he really wonts to end this he will stop paying and until he does, I'm not making any moves that will put me at an disadvantage when I decide its GO time.

One thing I can say is that I relied too heavily on him for my happiness in the past. Now I am finding and nurturing happiness within so that my emotional wellbeing is not exclusively tied to how this marriage is going.


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> One thing I can say is that I relied too heavily on him for my happiness in the past. Now I am finding and nurturing happiness within so that my emotional wellbeing is not exclusively tied to how this marriage is going.


This is what will bring you through this healthier and able to move on peacefully.


----------



## NostalgicOne

It truly blows my mind how the O.W. gets so offended at the innocent spouse (wife in this case). 
And it REALLY is funny that this other person hasn't considered this man won't cheat on them if he would leave his wife for them! 
There is a new species of Women out here who really are sick in their heads like Jodi Arias...Be careful.
In My case I had to file divorce because my ex husband kept cheating and the one he DID wind up settling down with? Boy she is all the revenge I could NEVER give out! LOL!!!
She is the most mentally unbalanced human being outside a mental ward I have met if they aren't on drugs!
She STILL,8yrs later, stalks me trying to see what "I" am doing on all social networking by even trying to friend my new partner!
It truly is the most bizarre thing I have ever seen as I went no contact with ex years ago and they live half way across Usa.
I guess the fact that they got married while he was still married to me(she knew that too) REALLY makes this woman think it will happen to her too....again,mentally unbalanced at 42 yrs old on her part.
Just wrote in case you ever do divorce and one of these O.W. do wind up with him, it's really funny to watch these women torture the ex in long run. Be safe.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> This is what will bring you through this healthier and able to move on peacefully.


If there is a lesson that can be learned it is that and I wont make that mistake again that's for sure


----------



## arandomlady

NostalgicOne said:


> It truly blows my mind how the O.W. gets so offended at the innocent spouse (wife in this case).
> And it REALLY is funny that this other person hasn't considered this man won't cheat on them if he would leave his wife for them!
> There is a new species of Women out here who really are sick in their heads like Jodi Arias...Be careful.
> In My case I had to file divorce because my ex husband kept cheating and the one he DID wind up settling down with? Boy she is all the revenge I could NEVER give out! LOL!!!
> She is the most mentally unbalanced human being outside a mental ward I have met if they aren't on drugs!
> She STILL,8yrs later, stalks me trying to see what "I" am doing on all social networking by even trying to friend my new partner!
> It truly is the most bizarre thing I have ever seen as I went no contact with ex years ago and they live half way across Usa.
> I guess the fact that they got married while he was still married to me(she knew that too) REALLY makes this woman think it will happen to her too....again,mentally unbalanced at 42 yrs old on her part.
> Just wrote in case you ever do divorce and one of these O.W. do wind up with him, it's really funny to watch these women torture the ex in long run. Be safe.






Thanks I remain even more vigilant than normal. I have even steeped up on target practice and self defense.

That is interesting. I have seen and heard of other situations where there was cheating in a marriage and this is first time I have heard of a ow coming to an h home except in cases where there is an affair with an ex he has kids with… Ow =clearly unbalanced because the both of them are wrong and didt know what I was capable of given I am the one betrayed in a long term marriage ( since it is not uncommon for people to commit crimes of passion in situations like this). 

What is problematic about this situation is that h opened the door when she showed up so I am holding him to be way more accountable. H demonstrated to me he is crazier /in the fog more than I could have ever imagined. I wasn’t sure how deep the A was at that point because he was still denying it, got my answer when he tried to supposedly stop contact … Seriously, it was by the grace of God and my strategic character that I didn’t go downstairs wielding my gun at both of them in a fit of pure rage…

If/When we divorce and she ends up with him so be it because there will always be discord in a marriage built on betrayal of another. I would like to think that since he married me he wouldn’t be capable of choosing a Jodi Arias but then again you cant ever tell…I believe if he really wants to be with ow or anyone else he would because its not like he has anything to lose (except yours truly).

With no kids, fact that we can plan our own dissolution agreement since in no fault state, and that I grossed more throughout the whole marriage until just very recently- I wouldn’t get alimony or anything like that. Now that he is making more money, he could end the marriage in a heartbeat if he really wanted to and there is a strong likelihood that he will.

I am fine with that, but he has to do it first because of the financial issues and fact he can afford to quicker than I could.
Honestly I don’t think I will have long since I’m implementing a strong modified 180 and its in full swing with no plans to drop it ( unless there is measurable, consistent remorse, positive action etc etc...)

Basically, I am trying to force him out of limbo towards D or R as I cant imagine he wants to keep paying most of the bills in a situation where we are not behaving as married. I want to know sooner than later one way or the other because I can go either way.

My process is preparing for D 75%, remorse with proof R 25%. Of course I reserve the right to blink first and just cut losses to file at anytime if he refuses to move in either direction.


----------



## arandomlady

In case anyone was wondering about the timeline, I tried to put in my signature but too long but here it is:



08/2013- Husband cheating began with a coworker (estimated)

12/30/2013- suspicions of cheating, obtained intel on ow obtained. marriage pause began no touching or anykind

01/03/14 – Husband officially moved into rental for the new job out of state ( ow is in my locale)

01/15/2014 More cheating evidence found I,e days off and travel/Confrontation h denies hard 180 starts

02/20/14 phone call and text to ow as H refused to confess. Reiterated no contact with me while in relationship with ow in progress

2/23/14 - No contact attempt by H to OW, OW responds by coming to home, police called. 

3/4/14- present –Contact with ow likely still in effect. No remorse from h, remains defiant during unwelcomed home visits

12/30/13-Present-Living separately while H pays majority of expenses. Saving more of my $$$. Marriage remains paused. H still comes home biweekly on days off with empty apologies


----------



## arandomlady

Diary update- So its that time again for h to be off and I suspect he is coming home though no prompting from me. He has gone from saying he is done, he doesn't want to talk or see me ever again to texting a lot and asking how am I and saying he has no one to talk to and whatnot. ( I don't believe him).

I ignored him until he referenced his account because I had still been paying some bills from his account apparently he didn't budget well. He is claiming I didn't leave enough for his living expenses. I actually did but he is not accounting for his eating out and other misc expenses plus he overdrew his account the last time he was here because he went gambling, not realizing (though I told him) we have bills and they will continue to get paid by BOTH of us.

SO being the softee that I am I went ahead and wired a little bit to that account to make sure he can get by until next week. (I'm not completely heartless and I don't want to put him on edge about me still maintaining the biills and having access to his money. The last thing I want is for him to get a secret account I cant access for reasons stated before..).

Anyway-I suspect I will be sad about the state of our marriage because I am going to vow renewal for friends 10th wedding anniversary this weekend. We both knew about it well in advance and he was off so I told her we would both attend. Since he sent so many nasty text to me awhile back, I figured he wasnt coming home so I let my friend know its just me so she could put someone in his place as she had many people didn't invite to get at 50 people for dinner and reception. I am sure this will be a fight as he wanted to go but oh well...

Anyway I as stated in another thread about the 180, I am feeling really good about things and my progress though I have a long way to go. As the weeks go by, its getting easier to imagine my life without him though I wonder about managing on 1 income. Do I want freedom from this or maintain lifestyle until the wheels comes off? As I said before, I am not letting up on unpausing the marriage.

So I'll be mainly unavailable while he is here and try not to engage him. Lately I have also been trying to follow the Four agreements:

Be impeccable with your word
Don't take anything personal
Don't make assumptions
In all things, do your best 

we'll see


----------



## Cynthia

I hope your weekend goes better than you expect.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> I hope your weekend goes better than you expect.


You know what, I'm going to be positive. Its a joyous occasion so surely I can have fun and be happy for my friend and her husband. As for what is going on with h, same, you said before can be respectful without being allowing him to walk all over me.

If he wants to know why he cant accompany me I will simply remind him that it was HE that said he wasn't coming home so I allowed my friend to adjust her plans accordingly for other guess. Honestly I don't think I would have wanted to go with him anyway as I don't want him to think that would mean marriage is unpaused.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

arandomlady said:


> If he wants to know why he cant accompany me I will simply remind him that it was HE that said he wasn't coming home so I allowed my friend to adjust her plans accordingly for other guess.


You could also tell him "This is a ceremony where a married couple is RENEWING their VOWS. I didn't think you were that interested in marriage vows"...


----------



## arandomlady

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> You could also tell him "This is a ceremony where a married couple is RENEWING their VOWS. I didn't think you were that interested in marriage vows"...


I know right, I will try to keep it civil but that's a good comeback if he wants to take it there


----------



## Allen_A

I would have just ignored the complaint.

Despite how out-of-the-loop waywards leave their spouses, waywards hate it when you do the same to them.

I would just ignore any of his commentary. Let him stew.


----------



## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: Husband ended affair, Other women shows up at our home to confront*



Allen_A said:


> I would have just ignored the complaint.
> 
> Despite how out-of-the-loop waywards leave their spouses, waywards hate it when you do the same to them.
> 
> I would just ignore any of his commentary. Let him stew.


As nice of a comeback as that is, I have to agree with this. 

Your WH feels he has done nothing wrong. At all. He feels justified in everything that he's doing. The world is out to get him even though he is "such a great guy". So any response to his manipulation/emotional jabs will just make him feel more justified not to mention he knows he hit a nerve. Anything you say to him, even the comback given, he will just try to turn it around and put the blame on you for not being able to stick to the marital vows.....

Trust me. My ex had a very similar attitude when I decided to leave. We had in house seperation though so had to deal with his cycles in person every day. Its good you recognize your WH has them. It does make it easier to deal with. Good luck.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> I would have just ignored the complaint.
> 
> Despite how out-of-the-loop waywards leave their spouses, waywards hate it when you do the same to them.
> 
> I would just ignore any of his commentary. Let him stew.


True. When he got home late Wednesday night I didnt actually talk to him at all until the end of the next day when I came down stairs ( I work from home) to leave for yoga and other meandering about to stay gone for several hours. I simply said I was surprised to see him then proceeded to leave, and he just looked at me funny.

When I came back later in the evening he then proceed to talk about his work while i made myself a quick snack, again like no elephant in the room. I just listened and didnt comment then went upstairs to read. I havent mentioned the ceremony/reception at all and he hasnt brought it up either so no actual comments made about it, its on Saturday.


----------



## arandomlady

vi_bride04 said:


> As nice of a comeback as that is, I have to agree with this.
> 
> Your WH feels he has done nothing wrong. At all. He feels justified in everything that he's doing. The world is out to get him even though he is "such a great guy". So any response to his manipulation/emotional jabs will just make him feel more justified not to mention he knows he hit a nerve. Anything you say to him, even the comback given, he will just try to turn it around and put the blame on you for not being able to stick to the marital vows.....
> 
> Trust me. My ex had a very similar attitude when I decided to leave. We had in house seperation though so had to deal with his cycles in person every day. Its good you recognize your WH has them. It does make it easier to deal with. Good luck.



Point taken and thanks. I suspect he will corner me when I get back home as by then it will be late and he will be good and stewing. As hard as it will be to not respond to him as I'm sure there will be a verbal assault, I will ignore his comments like you guys said which I'm sure will prompt him to do another stomer outer as that is his usual cycle response when he feels I wronged him...(give me a break).

I am no longer inclined to give a damn emotionally and thats the worst part about this. I have said many times, as long as he keeps paying and its not hurting me to stay paused I will do so. There is no compromising on my stance and I dont care what the fallout is.


----------



## arandomlady

So no need to worry about a blow up because he left. Surprising there was no argument. He just said he wanted to get back early to rest. Ok then. I think he wanted me to chase because he lingered around the house for awhile after he said he would take off. I was getting dressed for mediation class. When I get home and use the laptop of course he had all kinds of gross porn left open on purpose. typical passive aggressive bs .. anyway I will be having a good time tonite, regardless


----------



## Cynthia

He is hurting you on purpose, just because. That is abuse.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> He is hurting you on purpose, just because. That is abuse.


Its so dumb and non productive so I guess it has to be abuse though I don't want to call it that to minimize real abuse... Anyway, I am not even going to think about it he is obviously being a douche


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> Its so dumb and non productive so I guess it has to be abuse though I don't want to call it that to minimize real abuse... Anyway, I am not even going to think about it he is obviously being a douche


There are degrees of abuse. If he is purposefully hurting you, that is abuse. I understand you don't want to minimize the terror that some women go through, but that doesn't mean that you are not being abused in your relationship.
The good thing is that you are strong enough to see how stupid it is and that it's him with the problem.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> There are degrees of abuse. If he is purposefully hurting you, that is abuse. I understand you don't want to minimize the terror that some women go through, but that doesn't mean that you are not being abused in your relationship.
> The good thing is that you are strong enough to see how stupid it is and that it's him with the problem.




Oh he is really trying to get a response. He left up his new datehookup profile also for me to see also anything to get attention. Yeah he is really pulling out all the stops. I don't have any reason to think he can be mature. He will have to still pay the bills, if he doesn't, then I will make moves but not a moment sooner


----------



## Cynthia

Well keep your head up. I hope you are doing plenty of things in your life to keep you healthy and feeling good on all levels.


----------



## Cynthia

Also, I remember you saying that you used to make a lot more than your husband. I'm wondering if your income decreased and if so if you could find a higher paying job so you can get out of this mess sooner.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> Oh he is really trying to get a response. He left up his new datehookup profile also for me to see also anything to get attention. Yeah he is really pulling out all the stops. I don't have any reason to think he can be mature. He will have to still pay the bills, if he doesn't, then I will make moves but not a moment sooner


Yep, pathetic and childish attempt to stir up a response from you.

It's odd that he can make all these ridiculous efforts, expend all this energy in your direction, but not once has he come up with the right strategy.

What I am suspecting, is that his maturity is at such an unevolved level he doesn't even know what a mature strategy looks like.

There are four kinds of cheating spouse :

a. some have the willingness and knowledge to repair the damage
b. some have the willingness, but are ignorant of how to repair the damage
c. some are unwilling, despite knowing how to repair the damage
d. some are both unwilling and ignorant of how to repair the damage

I am starting to get the impression your husband is in category d, but sometimes he seems like b. Either way, he's clueless.

It takes a lot of maturity to know how to fix these things, and even more to actually do the work.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> Also, I remember you saying that you used to make a lot more than your husband. I'm wondering if your income decreased and if so if you could find a higher paying job so you can get out of this mess sooner.




Its because of his sporadic often part time employment because of school and multiple career changes. I do ok there hasn't been a decrease in income but there financial issues are that we are tied together by a ch 13 are in the middle of and I want to keep the home because I was able to get a 2% rate it would be cheaper to stay here than rent somewhere decent. 

He doesn't live here works out of state so he has no interest in the home if we split. he is still paying the mortgage because now he make more and knows he owes me that. Plus he probably knows that his way in. For how long I don't know but I'm in no hurry for that to stop as I am saving..

If I want to be the one to get out and file 1st I would need two attys to one for the divorce the other for bankruptcy mainly because of the financial entanglements. Its complicated. He just started making money and I don't want to lose recouping what I have spent over the years given the everything I been talking about. 

Sure I could cut my loses sooner rather than later but to what benefit. I would have a lower standard of living, no one in the wings and a bigger mess all while financing my own demise...only when I absolutely have to will I pull that trigger


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Yep, pathetic and childish attempt to stir up a response from you.
> 
> It's odd that he can make all these ridiculous efforts, expend all this energy in your direction, but not once has he come up with the right strategy.
> 
> What I am suspecting, is that his maturity is at such an unevolved level he doesn't even know what a mature strategy looks like.
> 
> There are four kinds of cheating spouse :
> 
> a. some have the willingness and knowledge to repair the damage
> b. some have the willingness, but are ignorant of how to repair the damage
> c. some are unwilling, despite knowing how to repair the damage
> d. some are both unwilling and ignorant of how to repair the damage
> 
> I am starting to get the impression your husband is in category d, but sometimes he seems like b. Either way, he's clueless.
> 
> It takes a lot of maturity to know how to fix these things, and even more to actually do the work.



Correct as usual. He thinks just him doing his share and willingness to come home and said he is sorry is all that is needed. He kept trying to make his way back to the master bedroom ( just to watch tv) and I told him no I am not comfortable he can watch downstairs.

See he feels because I am not being responsive to his "efforts" he now has the right to be an ass thus the recent shenanigans and the lastest stomer outer though there was no provocation. He fails to realize the actual act of him cheating is the worst thing he could have done period so if he is thinking cheating more is doing to do anything its diminishing marginal utility...

I guess I didn't realize he was this immature because I just like to take control and he didn't mind so guess its my bad. I chose poorly clearly. As a reminder, he went to school for 
MFT ( Marriage Family Therapy) so its not like he cant figure it out if he would try. I am thinking he really doesnt want to
because he is doing the exactly opposite of what he should. 

It hurts because he could do much better. I am not putting anything into this. he is going to have to step it up or divorce me. He knows that all he has to do is stop paying bills and it will be done as that will force my hand. The fact that he wont just do that leads me to think he must want to try so why the games...

sorry rambling this is so lame


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I guess I didn't realize he was this immature because I just like to take control and he didn't mind so guess its my bad.


Well, control means you are taking the work. Control = work.

He may just be lazy and saw a way to avoid doing the work.

You want to manage finances, that's great for him. He doesn't have to lift a finger.

It's your bad in that you allowed him to coast on your sweat yes.

Imagine both of you on a large two person bicycle and only YOU peddling. That's what's happened there.

Your bad is that you allowed him to stop peddling. His bad is a bit more obvious. He saw you going so he let you do all of the hard work while he sat on his arse.



arandomlady said:


> See he feels because I am not being responsive to his "efforts" he now has the right to be an ass thus the recent shenanigans and the lastest stomer outer though there was no provocation


Well, that's the logic a LOT of waywards use. The thinking goes along the lines of 

_My spouse isn't being the best spouse they can be for me, so I am no longer obligated to respect them at all.
_

_Waywards think that if you are dropping the ball, that gives them the right to throw the entire game._

It's ridiculous logic, but it's in almost 90% of the cases we run into or more.



arandomlady said:


> I chose poorly clearly.


He may have been a warm and generous man. That won't make him find the mature choices in crisis. Maturity is how we behave during a crisis.

He may be great for parties and vacations.

When choosing a mate, you want one who finds maturity when there is a crap storm all around you.

Those are the keepers.

And a female hitting on you is very much a crap storm all around you. It's just a carefully disguised one.



arandomlady said:


> As a reminder, he went to school for
> MFT ( Marriage Family Therapy) so its not like he cant figure it out if he would try.


How well did he do? How far did he get?

That IS a good sign in a mate, that they understand the stuff. That he was interested in MFT. But, if they aren't mature, that won't help. You are effectively handing a knife and fork to a chimpanzee.



arandomlady said:


> I am thinking he really doesnt want to
> because he is doing the exactly opposite of what he should.


Well, I am hesitant to mind read.

a. he could be frustrated that he can't fix this
b. he could be frustrated that you aren't responding to his clumsy strategies
c. he could be frustrated that he screwed up
d. he could be frustrated that you won't just pretend he didn't cheat on you

That's the impression I get anyhow... I guess it's time for him to crack open those MFT textbooks.




arandomlady said:


> It hurts because he could do much better. I am not putting anything into this. he is going to have to step it up or divorce me. He knows that all he has to do is stop paying bills and it will be done as that will force my hand. The fact that he wont just do that leads me to think he must want to try so why the games...


Yup. You can't coax him or hand hold him into repairing this damage. He has to walk the gauntlet or his own. That's the first test is how much is he willing to do when you aren't there lifting a finger.

When a woman is hitting on him, and he's alone, you won't be there to do the heavy lifting of protecting the marriage. You need to know he will do the heavy lifting when you aren't there.

So, this is his chance to prove that. And what he's showing you is that he won't lift a finger when you aren't there to do it too.

He's only willing to try when he knows you are.


That's textbook immaturity.

I think he wants to try, but only on his terms. He sounds stubborn and prideful. Not the best characteristics when you are a cheating wayward.

He's going to have to eat some crow eventually. Clearly he's resisting that step with every ounce of his being yet.



arandomlady said:


> sorry rambling this is so lame


I don't find it lame at all. You seem to have a remarkable grasp of the interpersonal dynamics going on here, and you have the maturity to step outside of them, rather than allowing them to intimidate you.

You read as if you almost find his clumsy attempts to provoke a response out of you almost comical.

Porn and online dating sites left wide open, and you seem to not let it defeat you. You read as if you have recognized how childish he's behaving, and are able to step outside of that not unlike a parent.

That's a very good sign for you, that you have the maturity to step back and out. Just sit back and watch him thrash away like a ten year old without even blinking.


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> sorry rambling this is so lame


Ramble away. The situation you are in and your husbands's behavior is lame, but you are not lame. The situation is ridiculous and I'm sure you need to vent.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Well, control means you are taking the work. Control = work.
> 
> He may just be lazy and saw a way to avoid doing the work.
> 
> You want to manage finances, that's great for him. He doesn't have to lift a finger.
> 
> It's your bad in that you allowed him to coast on your sweat yes.
> 
> Imagine both of you on a large two person bicycle and only YOU peddling. That's what's happened there.
> 
> Your bad is that you allowed him to stop peddling. His bad is a bit more obvious. He saw you going so he let you do all of the hard work while he sat on his arse.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's the logic a LOT of waywards use. The thinking goes along the lines of
> 
> _My spouse isn't being the best spouse they can be for me, so I am no longer obligated to respect them at all.
> _
> 
> _Waywards think that if you are dropping the ball, that gives them the right to throw the entire game._
> 
> It's ridiculous logic, but it's in almost 90% of the cases we run into or more.
> 
> 
> 
> He may have been a warm and generous man. That won't make him find the mature choices in crisis. Maturity is how we behave during a crisis.
> 
> He may be great for parties and vacations.
> 
> When choosing a mate, you want one who finds maturity when there is a crap storm all around you.
> 
> Those are the keepers.
> 
> And a female hitting on you is very much a crap storm all around you. It's just a carefully disguised one.
> 
> 
> 
> How well did he do? How far did he get?
> 
> That IS a good sign in a mate, that they understand the stuff. That he was interested in MFT. But, if they aren't mature, that won't help. You are effectively handing a knife and fork to a chimpanzee.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I am hesitant to mind read.
> 
> a. he could be frustrated that he can't fix this
> b. he could be frustrated that you aren't responding to his clumsy strategies
> c. he could be frustrated that he screwed up
> d. he could be frustrated that you won't just pretend he didn't cheat on you
> 
> That's the impression I get anyhow... I guess it's time for him to crack open those MFT textbooks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. You can't coax him or hand hold him into repairing this damage. He has to walk the gauntlet or his own. That's the first test is how much is he willing to do when you aren't there lifting a finger.
> 
> When a woman is hitting on him, and he's alone, you won't be there to do the heavy lifting of protecting the marriage. You need to know he will do the heavy lifting when you aren't there.
> 
> So, this is his chance to prove that. And what he's showing you is that he won't lift a finger when you aren't there to do it too.
> 
> He's only willing to try when he knows you are.
> 
> 
> That's textbook immaturity.
> 
> I think he wants to try, but only on his terms. He sounds stubborn and prideful. Not the best characteristics when you are a cheating wayward.
> 
> He's going to have to eat some crow eventually. Clearly he's resisting that step with every ounce of his being yet.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't find it lame at all. You seem to have a remarkable grasp of the interpersonal dynamics going on here, and you have the maturity to step outside of them, rather than allowing them to intimidate you.
> 
> You read as if you almost find his clumsy attempts to provoke a response out of you almost comical.
> 
> Porn and online dating sites left wide open, and you seem to not let it defeat you. You read as if you have recognized how childish he's behaving, and are able to step outside of that not unlike a parent.
> 
> That's a very good sign for you, that you have the maturity to step back and out. Just sit back and watch him thrash away like a ten year old without even blinking.





Thanks for the detailed response. Yes, yes, and yes to all of that. To answer your question he was decent Mft student finished with classes it’s a master degree program and was about to start internship but gave up and decided to do something else since the internships are unpaid…Its weird because he talks down about counseling he had agreed to go at one point then backed out of it. His focus was children so I suppose the study wasn't on on marital issues? Still no excuse for him to plead ignorance when he could do 1st grade research and do a better job at figuring this out...

I haven’t recommended it or anything again because of the lack of remorse and the counselor basically refuses to see him anyway until I feel h is remorseful and at least doing something noteworthy to show he wants to repair the marriage. I am going to continue individual sessions to reinforce my armor of sanity for this nonsense and help me process and repair myself. Obviously there is no talk of repairing the marriage as its noon existent at this point.

Humor is my defense mechanism and I am pretty self deprecating. I feel as if I am a spectator in my own marriage because I am not an active participant while he is acting out. Yes it is a comedy of errors for me and its childish to the extreme and very frustrating but I am not giving any energy to it. I have been through too much so I refused to be intimidated. Between him cheating on me in the first place then the ow coming to my home basically challenging me, I don’t think I can be punked any further without serious repercussions.

So I went to the ceremony, It was beautiful and made me sad about the mockery that has become our marriage. Actually hearing the vows recited and being there to witness reinforces how h broke something so sacred…I’m actually sick to my stomach. Yes he will use any women coming on to him as fuel to get back at me and the I am finding the constant talk about how he is feeling and him not feeling attention or love is really telling...

When I turned my phone back on, see that he text me 20 times saying he is done, wants a d, and that I’m ignoring him and he is moving on not paying anything else etc. etc. I did not respond. If he really files D I will gladly oblige without hesitation.

I know that if he actually goes through with it, there is no reconciliation for me, period. I should hope he would not use it as a ploy to get me to work at this marriage as bs do. In my opinion he is in no position to do that as he is the one who cheated has actually actively hindered reconciliation.

The nerve of him to say HE is done, gets my goat but I wont yet him know it. No I say again- he will have to file or stop paying. I keep saying that because that the only incentive I have to remain stationary as like to say “paused” in the marriage but moving on mentally by myself, not sure if this makes sense.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> Ramble away. The situation you are in and your husbands's behavior is lame, but you are not lame. The situation is ridiculous and I'm sure you need to vent.



I appreciate that. Its cathartic to type way here and read peoples responses as it gives meaning and perspectives that I have not thought of. You guys are getting a play by play which seems tedious but its helpful because this is real time. I am not sure if this post can help anyone else as much it has helped me but I hope so.


----------



## Cynthia

Even if you are the only person helped, it is worth it, but it is likely that others will read and gain perspective.


----------



## WallaceBea

I've been reading through this thread and I just want to say sorry for what you are going through. 
You seem like a really strong, smart woman though, and I am glad you have a support system here to help you get through this.


----------



## arandomlady

Ashalicious said:


> I've been reading through this thread and I just want to say sorry for what you are going through.
> You seem like a really strong, smart woman though, and I am glad you have a support system here to help you get through this.


Keeping up appearances...lol seriously its a mess but I am trying to be resolute. I am feeling like I want to cut the losses more and more instead of being strategic like I planned... I am now looking into relocating to another city with my company and just leaving this life behind and starting over, completely. I disclosed to another friend today at diner since I think I am might be leaving and don't want it be a total shock. I feel like I have given the opportunity and instead of walking through the door of reconciliation he is throwing bombs at me. I should take the hint already lol


----------



## Cynthia

That could give you a fresh start and you wouldn't have to be concerned about him showing up and tormenting you anymore.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> That could give you a fresh start and you wouldn't have to be concerned about him showing up and tormenting you anymore.




Not without a considerable cost. I am awaiting options from a bankruptcy atty other than the last consult which was to play nice to try to stay in current plan with the h and finish it out. I thought I wanted to keep the home but its become an albatross and a dungeon of memories... 

Now I am concerned that with my sudden urge to want to d and flee that I am being irrational and moving too fast with pendulum swinging wildly. I am feeling preety sure given the h defiance and fact that I am starting to wonder if this happening isn't a catalyst preparing me for something else.


so I am in the opinion of this:

"If someone is not treating you with love and respect, it is a gift if they walk away from you. If that person doesn't walk away, you will surely endure many years of suffering with him or her. Walking away may hurt for a while, but your heart will eventually heal. Then you can choose what you really want. You will find that you don't need to trust others as much as you need to trust yourself to make the right choices.” 

― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom


----------



## Cynthia

That is a good quote.
From what you have written, it doesn't seem like you are making rash, emotional decisions. It seems that you thought your husband was repentant, but he obviously isn't. Not only is not repentant, but he has become cruel and you don't trust him on any level. You don't know what he might do financially either. Based on that, it seems that getting out from under that house may be the logical choice.


----------



## clipclop2

Be sure to take pix or screen shots of his profiles. Send them to friends and family in the next holiday letter. ;-)


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> That is a good quote.
> From what you have written, it doesn't seem like you are making rash, emotional decisions. It seems that you thought your husband was repentant, but he obviously isn't. Not only is not repentant, but he has become cruel and you don't trust him on any level. You don't know what he might do financially either. Based on that, it seems that getting out from under that house may be the logical choice.


When I told the therapist he agreed but he was not happy with the locale, I want to relocate to Hawaii says that's too drastic. I think I need drastic...I pray to God that I can get out from the house, this marriage, and be able to transfer before I lose my nerve.


----------



## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> Be sure to take pix or screen shots of his profiles. Send them to friends and family in the next holiday letter. ;-)




you are hilarious. whats crazy is that he is still texting everyone about random stuff. one set of our mutual friends know now and they told him not to contact them again. I wish I had the wherewithal to film the incident when the ow came to the house... that was epic.


----------



## arandomlady

Is it time for me to move over to the considering divorce section and do I do a new thread? I don't thnk the current title of this thread indicates what this situation now entails? If someone could let me know...


----------



## clipclop2

It is up to you. Where do you want the thread?

If you start a new one, leave a link here to that one. 

As for film quality... why not have some fun with it?  

Indie films are huge. Who knows what your bozo will do that can be leveraged. And if you start looking at it like the farce it is, you can more easily let go. 

They are making a lot of films in Canada. Understated. Head shaking. TAM Films, CA. 

Characters in these films don't realize they are characters. Cool your friends let him know!


----------



## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> It is up to you. Where do you want the thread?
> 
> If you start a new one, leave a link here to that one.
> 
> As for film quality... why not have some fun with it?
> 
> Indie films are huge. Who knows what your bozo will do that can be leveraged. And if you start looking at it like the farce it is, you can more easily let go.
> 
> They are making a lot of films in Canada. Understated. Head shaking. TAM Films, CA.
> 
> Characters in these films don't realize they are characters. Cool your friends let him know!




I wasn't sure since I am transitioning from coping with infidelity to more likely transitioning to divorce makes any difference to what people are looking for in each section. I could certainly take liberties with the story in recreating it on film though as they say truth is often stranger than fiction. I could do several movies on just the ranges of h behaviors since this occurred alone...

Then again I guess I could leave it all here since this is where it all kicked off. I am feeling strangely clearheaded to the point of it being surreal. I am starting to really imagine my life again outside of the realm of "coping with infidelity" to actually just living and being a woman who is striving for person growth and repairing a broken heart.

I got a long way to go. My employer is shocked about me wanting the transfer as they know I am married and own a home here. I'm sure they are putting 2 and 2 together since they know h is out of state...part of me doesn't care and part of me is concerned that they may think I am being erratic.

I just want to do it, and don't want to explain why because I have lived with this for the last few months though I am slowly letting people know what up since I am pretty sure we are not going to reconcile. this is hard. peoples reactions are hard to take. especially since I haven't even told then the worse bits...

there I go rambling... I thank people for responding I know you all have your crosses to bear too...


----------



## Cynthia

Can you change the title of the thread? Otherwise, what kind of thread would you like to start? If you do something general like, "The life of arandomlady" then you could post whatever and not be concerned that you might get off topic.
I don't think you are being erratic. If you aren't behaving erratically at work, it is unlikely your bosses will think you are erratic either.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> Can you change the title of the thread? Otherwise, what kind of thread would you like to start? If you do something general like, "The life of arandomlady" then you could post whatever and not be concerned that you might get off topic.
> I don't think you are being erratic. If you aren't behaving erratically at work, it is unlikely your bosses will think you are erratic either.



I don't even know if it can be changed or what I would call it. Just know we are are beyond the ow showing up...Basically the gist is that he cheated, is not remorseful, wants me to beg and chase him back into the marriage..

At work its is easy to get busy and work harder than ever so no performance issues but concern for change of venue. I might be overthinking it. I'm not sure where I will up transferring to, just want out. Its crazy because I would have never considered this if you had even asked me a week ago...


----------



## illwill

arandomlady said:


> Not without a considerable cost. I am awaiting options from a bankruptcy atty other than the last consult which was to play nice to try to stay in current plan with the h and finish it out. I thought I wanted to keep the home but its become an albatross and a dungeon of memories...
> 
> Now I am concerned that with my sudden urge to want to d and flee that I am being irrational and moving too fast with pendulum swinging wildly. I am feeling preety sure given the h defiance and fact that I am starting to wonder if this happening isn't a catalyst preparing me for something else.
> 
> 
> so I am in the opinion of this:
> 
> "If someone is not treating you with love and respect, it is a gift if they walk away from you. If that person doesn't walk away, you will surely endure many years of suffering with him or her. Walking away may hurt for a while, but your heart will eventually heal. Then you can choose what you really want. You will find that you don't need to trust others as much as you need to trust yourself to make the right choices.”
> 
> ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom


Sounds more like you are thinking rational. You owe him nothing anymore. And have given him more chances than he deserved. Nothing wrong. with being selfish.


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> I don't even know if it can be changed or what I would call it. Just know we are are beyond the ow showing up...Basically the gist is that he cheated, is not remorseful, wants me to beg and chase him back into the marriage..
> 
> At work its is easy to get busy and work harder than ever so no performance issues but concern for change of venue. I might be overthinking it. I'm not sure where I will up transferring to, just want out. Its crazy because I would have never considered this if you had even asked me a week ago...


It is normal for you to feel this way under the circumstances. You don't want to worry about him showing up, so of course you would be thinking about how to get far away. If you start another thread, please post the link in this thread, so we can find you.


----------



## arandomlady

illwill said:


> Sounds more like you are thinking rational. You owe him nothing anymore. And have given him more chances than he deserved. Nothing wrong. with being selfish.



I would like to think so though I am somewhat worried that people will think i didn't.. stupid but its the appearances of the thing. 

The people we know see that he took a job out of state and that around this time I started to look different and act different and they might think it was me who cheated because of all the changes I have underdone in a short time. My 180 is quite the shock and I find I have to explain what the hell is going on.

He is still texting and being friendly with mutual friends not telling them the deal with us... its madning because i feel i have to because i will be leaving and don't want it to be like wha'happen?


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> It is normal for you to feel this way under the circumstances. You don't want to worry about him showing up, so of course you would be thinking about how to get far away. If you start another thread, please post the link in this thread, so we can find you.


I guess I should keep the thread here so its continuous drama in one spot... Agreed. the more I thought about it, I don't think i would ever be comfortable in the house again


----------



## arandomlady

Diary update: I did a bad thing today. 180 went out the window 

So I haven't been speaking to H since his last message to me last Saturday was that he is done and that he will no longer contribute to household and its over he is losing my # etc, etc. Granted this is the millionth time he has done this but he followed through with changing accounts so that when he got paid no money went to the joint account.

He owed me from putting money back into his account the last pay day because he over spent. ok- i didn't discuss this with him as we are not speaking which is the bad part. i kinda sorta wire transferred money owed to me from his separate account back to the joint account without telling him and he was pissed.

The bank we share called me and was like uh your husband is saying he didn't authorize the wire from his other bank account to this one and we see a withdrawal...he is saying he is in other state... I explained i apologize for involving them in a domestic dispute we are separating and he is playing games like he doesn't know the deal. told them to review transactions they will see wires come and go from this account both ways all the time.

H knows the score and he didn't complain when i wired money into the account he using and didn't inform him and furthermore he can take it out from this account as it is JOINT he has access to both account and this is NOT fraud. told the joint bank to do what they have to but the wire went to an account he is part owner of. I wouldn't say there was any fraud here.

so h calls me and against my better judgment i answered because of this issue...H is like what the hell are you doing i already paid the mortgage what are you taking more money for. ( I didn't know this) how would i have known that when his text implies otherwise plus he owed me the other money. i took what was mine not a penny more.

So now I'm the bad guy? I told him to stop pay the mortgage check then but I'm keeping the money doubt the bank will reverse the wire. I told him that unless he is keeping the house not to make payments because i plan to let it go and didn't think he wanted it. 

Now he is saying he does and he wants to make the payments but for me to move out. I'm like uh, no because i have paid money into the house i have no reason to leave until i am good and ready so he better figure it out.( did not tell him of likely job transfer). he is not even living here so it makes no sense. 


He wanted to go back forth about what I'm doing and why HE is upset and I'm not talking to him so on, and so on. I told him we need to sort out the logistics of the divorce as far as the other "stuff" end any discussion about the marriage since its done. Still he wants to talk about how i am not being a wife to him and how his affair was a few months while he has been during problems with me for years...i told him he doesn't have to endure another day...FILE

So I have a lot to discuss with the attys next week because he is wanting to back out of the ch 13. bankruptcy, keep the house and to get me out of it.

something tells me this is just the beginning


----------



## Allen_A

He's just throwing fits.

Let him throw fits.

It's funny that he can say you have been a problem for years, but he assumes he's been the ideal husband. What a joke.

No ownership or maturity there at all.

Ya, in future, don't pick up the phone. For any other reason it's NOT RECORDED. At least a text you have what he said word for word in writing. I do NOT recommend negotiating with a hostile spouse on the phone. Text is a lot less stressful as well.

Next time he calls, ignore it. Make him type out an email.

It was great to see you standing your ground over all of this. A lot of spouses would have just paid everything themselves and moved out, surrendered to all the bullying.

You didn't. Bravo.

He has a full time job to keep. Let him do the leg work of filing for divorce if he wants to. He's a busy guy and he doesn't like doing the grunt work to begin with.

So, this may take a while for him to find the time and the motivation. In the meantime you can keep saving your cash.

You may want to think about getting a storage facility for your valuables. He will likely try to take those and sell them at some point.

Question : didn't you say OW was working at the same company as him?

If so, you could report that after you have moved out. That would be a brilliant move. I am sure he's exploited company time to pursue his affair. Companies generally want you to work when they are paying you, not screw around on their dime.


----------



## Cynthia

You will work through this. It's going to be okay. Just take it one step at a time. Keep posting and getting encouragement.
What happened is not the end of the world. It's not like he has all the power and you have nothing. You will get this worked out.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> You will work through this. It's going to be okay. Just take it one step at a time. Keep posting and getting encouragement.
> What happened is not the end of the world. It's not like he has all the power and you have nothing. You will get this worked out.


I appreciate that and am trying to come from a place of strength and resiliency. God willing I surely hope and believe I can.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> He's just throwing fits.
> 
> Let him throw fits.
> 
> It's funny that he can say you have been a problem for years, but he assumes he's been the ideal husband. What a joke.
> 
> No ownership or maturity there at all.
> 
> Ya, in future, don't pick up the phone. For any other reason it's NOT RECORDED. At least a text you have what he said word for word in writing. I do NOT recommend negotiating with a hostile spouse on the phone. Text is a lot less stressful as well.
> 
> Next time he calls, ignore it. Make him type out an email.
> 
> It was great to see you standing your ground over all of this. A lot of spouses would have just paid everything themselves and moved out, surrendered to all the bullying.
> 
> You didn't. Bravo.
> 
> He has a full time job to keep. Let him do the leg work of filing for divorce if he wants to. He's a busy guy and he doesn't like doing the grunt work to begin with.
> 
> So, this may take a while for him to find the time and the motivation. In the meantime you can keep saving your cash.
> 
> You may want to think about getting a storage facility for your valuables. He will likely try to take those and sell them at some point.
> 
> Question : didn't you say OW was working at the same company as him?
> 
> If so, you could report that after you have moved out. That would be a brilliant move. I am sure he's exploited company time to pursue his affair. Companies generally want you to work when they are paying you, not screw around on their dime.




My reasoning for talking to him when he called is he had not text me and since it is payday and I know he has stopped contributing to household, I needed to see where his head is at and what his next move is. Since reconciliation is now officially off the table (because of the, defiance, lack of remorse , the blaming, and immaturity, etc, etc), I expect the gloves to come off. 

He made the statement that he guess he wont hear from me again until next payday ( keep in mind that he called me). I said he never has to hear from me again if he will simply give me the divorce and help pay off part of my 401 loans as settlement I took out to save the house while he was coming up short on earnings in the marriage…

I just want keep my car and we split proceeds of a previous company car that I purchased and own outright but he is driving cost free along with sell of contents in the house and he can have the house as I don’t want it. He is making a lot more money now and its would not a hardship for him now.

Problem with that is technically I should not have taken out in new debt while in a ch 13 and I don’t think I can legally stick ½ of that to him since its MY retirement account. I will get clarification on this with a different bankruptcy atty and divorce atty next week. He doesn’t acknowledge any obligation to me in that regard which I’m not surprised as he had no regard staying committed to the marriage anyway.

The good news is now that I know he wants the house and me out of it, I know that I have to be extra careful here because I had not anticipated he would ( mortgage is upside down by more than 30%) and he will probably play dirty since I am wanting the divorce for certain when before I wasn’t really ready to give up on the marriage, and he knew that.

Granted he could be bluffing and using scare tactics but I cant take any chances here because I cant be sure of when I can wrap things up and get a job transfer out of dodge. 

The attys don’t want me to make any moves now for fear that would change domicile for the pending cases. At the same time and I don’t want to be a sitting duck since I am still living in the house that is in contention. 

No I wont be bullied, my eyes were covered for too long and let things get to a level they shouldn’t have. 

Unfortunately, time is no longer on my side because with him failing to make the trustee payment it will cause a financial meltdown that could will force me to file d first since I need to protect against his wilfull disregard of the ch 13 agreement and legally separate myself from him financial splitting the joint bankruptcy.

I refuse to make the payment because its mostly child support arrears and mortgage debt not consumer debt as that has been thrown out ot make room so the plan could be completed in 5 years and we are about halfway through it.

The plan is to save money for my exit, plus if I have to make a choice in paying the mortgage or the trustee, its going to be the mortgage. Since I am not keeping the house and credit is ruined anyway, I’m not paying either one just my car note and utilities and the h says I’m getting a ride…I don’t think so but could he have a point, maybe but not my problem. 

The ow worked with him at the previous job not the current one. When he left that job, I guess they remained in contact as there was an affair started. I don't think she is still working at the same place either but that would have been something to look at if it was with this current job. Although I could probably argue that he probably had her in his company paid hotel and uses his work phone for inappropriate conduct...

I don’t have anything relatively of value except the cars. The furniture in the home is very nice, in impeccable shape and can be consigned at a good price so I discussed that with him and he is saying he doesn’t care since I picked everything in the home and he doesn’t want it. I would prefer to get the things sold even though I am living here because when its go time I don’t want to be scrambling funds from selling the stuff…

I told him to put that in writing, preferably in divorce papers. He has several off days coming up next week and I an not sure if he is coming to town but if he is smart he will if for no other reason to consult with an atty of his own…

Meanwhile I am awaiting my additional atty consults early next week and diligently working on securing a job transfer choosing from at least 3 potential cities. Ultimately, I don’t know whats going to happen but I think I am moving in the right direction. Is it possible to be scared but relived at the same time because I do.


----------



## Cynthia

What a mess when all you wanted was to be happily married. What the heck? At least now he's put his cards on the table. Bluffing or not, it doesn't matter. You know what he's up to.
Stay the course. You will get through this one way or another.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> What a mess when all you wanted was to be happily married. What the heck? At least now he's put his cards on the table. Bluffing or not, it doesn't matter. You know what he's up to.
> Stay the course. You will get through this one way or another.



That is so true. I really really wanted this marriage to work and I'm hurt it cant. So staying the course is necessary for my future development. I am attending a special workshop this weekend that's all about finding one's true self. It might be mumbo jumbo to some but I need all the help I can get right now. I going to stive for positivity, despite all of this, I'm truly blessed.


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> I going to stive for positivity, despite all of this, I'm truly blessed.


This is a very good attitude and will help you plow through all this muck.


----------



## cool12

what a mess indeed.
but you've been through so much already and you're still standing tall. i know you can do this!


----------



## arandomlady

cool12 said:


> what a mess indeed.
> but you've been through so much already and you're still standing tall. i know you can do this!


 I hope to get good news from the attys in separating the financials. emotionally I have accepted its over and looking forward


----------



## Cynthia

I hope you get good news too. Let us know how it goes.


----------



## Allen_A

You should be able to get a work transfer easily enough. Heck, just from your posts alone here I am impressed and would hire you.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> You should be able to get a work transfer easily enough. Heck, just from your posts alone here I am impressed and would hire you.


I am afraid to apply until I can know for certain when I could leave. I am essentially trying to do the same job just another locale so you would think it would be a slam dunk but it depends..

I inquired about it directly with the office I want to transfer to in HI but no response so freaking out and its been a week. my current managers know and said they would support it but I am worried..

I will be following up again and I might just apply even without a response snce maybe that's what they want..


----------



## Cynthia

No reason to freak out or worry. What harm would there be in applying?


----------



## arandomlady

Diary update:

I am sad I just found out the position I wanted to transfer to in Hawaii has been filled already :-( 


I am looking at other locales but that would have been the ultimate...oh well at this point I just want to be near water so trying best matches...

Not sure if H will show up as he will be off the next few days. I don't want to see him unless he comes with D papers. It very uncomfortable for me during these times especially since I feel strongly about getting the hell outta here, like yesterday

I really need to save more money but I am feeling like I cant wait. the consult with the bankruptcy atty went good and bad. bad news is because I got a bonus its potentially taking me out of contention to qualify for ch 7 which is needed to get out from house. good news is I cant be charged with child support arrears no matter what. bad news I can be charged with every other consumer debt we hold that was knocked off to make room for the child support arrears since we are gong to be dismissed from ch 13 protection. atty says cant file ch7 until my income average comes back down several months plus I have to be divorced. I cant file now cause need to save money and want h to do it...ai yi yi...

so I told my immediate manager the deal so she knows I'm serious about transferring somewhere before end of year. I feel like now the whole office will know... I did not tell her why we are divorcing. ( she is kinda sorta a friend too and her husband is friends with mine...I'm kinda worry about what she will think

I hate this situation. people are treating me wit kid gloves now and its embarrassing...this sucks


----------



## Cynthia

It's okay. There is no need to be embarrassed. It is what it is. You are doing your best and you will come through this. I think the way you are dealing with your husband is good. You are not bashing him or trying to get back at him. You are simply trying to live your life the best you can. That is a way to healing.


----------



## arandomlady

update- so he is here and we are not speaking

my second location for transfer is filled, it turns out the company website is not updated very often showing listings when there really isn't one...


the crap locations are probably not filled so I wont be making a move yet.


----------



## vi_bride04

Act happy and upbeat. Play on your phone, watch tv, etc. Leave the house and just drive around if you need some space. Hard hard hard hard 180. It will help you. Trust me. 

I did an in house separation for about a month before I moved out. I wish I would have done the things I just recommended.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> update- so he is here and we are not speaking
> 
> my second location for transfer is filled, it turns out the company website is not updated very often showing listings when there really isn't one...
> 
> 
> the crap locations are probably not filled so I wont be making a move yet.


He travels all that way to NOT speak to you? lol

What on earth is he trying to say by doing all of this?

He's so passive aggressive about everything... does he not know how to express his frustration? Is that the problem?

Anyways, him not speaking is probably best for you anyhow.


Don't engage.


----------



## arandomlady

vi_bride04 said:


> Act happy and upbeat. Play on your phone, watch tv, etc. Leave the house and just drive around if you need some space. Hard hard hard hard 180. It will help you. Trust me.
> 
> I did an in house separation for about a month before I moved out. I wish I would have done the things I just recommended.


It the same pattern. I was fine until I came down stairs after working from home to leave for yoga/meditation and he stops to ask about selling the company car so we can split the money and him get a new one...it opened the can of worms because I then said sure if we can talk about the 401 k loans I took out and are still paying we can split the cost of that since I used it to maintain the home when you were not making enough money... again 180 out the window- talking about money always does it!!!

that lead to him guilt triping about shoring up MY lavish taste while his children ( who lived with their mom) suffered I was like really...I worked hard, I played hard and you were along for the ride and you were supposed to take care of their child support and make sure they had I'm not going to live like a pauper when I work like the king... I had to just leave but broke down in the yoga center... how embarassing


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> He travels all that way to NOT speak to you? lol
> 
> What on earth is he trying to say by doing all of this?
> 
> He's so passive aggressive about everything... does he not know how to express his frustration? Is that the problem?
> 
> Anyways, him not speaking is probably best for you anyhow.
> 
> 
> Don't engage.




well technically he didn't actually see me until I came down stairs to leave the next evening. he apparently got in really late because he drove home from work yesterday....I had a feeling he would come home even though he always says he wont.

he expresses frustration just fine through blaming me for everything and saying I only care about myself and money ok (perhaps this is not completely false as of late ) yes very passive aggressive though I am just realizing this is what it is the last year or so.

I only engage him when the bottom line is affected. yes its about the money since I feel no love from him with the affair and aftermath. for me the relationship now is pure transactional, for real. 

so after I tell him fine we can sell my company car and split the proceeds as this will net me about 6k and by law its community property anyway. 

My sticking point is I feel the same thing goes for the 401k loans he says no I say yes it does...then he proceeds to tell me he wants the house and not fair that I stay in it while he pays the mortgage.

I say I am not going anywhere until I am ready to leave for good...plus I am going to get my free staying time as long as I can to save money since he put me in this predicament. want me out, give me half of the 401k loans now with the divorce papers.

I told him to go while he is off and courthouse is open tomorrow get the uncontested divorce papers and we can sign them now in front of a notary. I. Just. Want. To. Be. Done.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> It's okay. There is no need to be embarrassed. It is what it is. You are doing your best and you will come through this. I think the way you are dealing with your husband is good. You are not bashing him or trying to get back at him. You are simply trying to live your life the best you can. That is a way to healing.


I am not bashing him to friends but to family I might be bashing him because they need to understand I'm not a crazy person to divorce him NOW ( because of hugely better paying job and fact they felt we were great together). 

Get this, my dad wants to talk to him says he wants to know why??? I'm like you need not confirm anything this with him. take my word, I'm your daughter... its like he needs to know h side or something.

I'm quite upset by this and told him no I will not be giving him h number he is never to speak with him again seeing as how we are divorcing. there are no kids so its not like there is a need to maintain a relationship.. maybe I'm wrong I think he want to intervene I cant have him doing anything


----------



## arandomlady

something absurd- as I was stating my case about the 401k he tells me he is leaving to stay in a hotel to get away.. I'm said GO!!!!!!!! are you kidding me?? 

just as a reminder, we have not been under any physical contact what so ever since 12/30 and do not share room. of course he didn't go anywhere= passive aggressive indeed


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> something absurd- as I was stating my case about the 401k he tells me he is leaving to stay in a hotel to get away.. I'm said GO!!!!!!!! are you kidding me??
> 
> just as a reminder, we have not been under any physical contact what so ever since 12/30 and do not share room. of course he didn't go anywhere= passive aggressive indeed


It's just more passive aggression.

He's just thrashing about, doing things in an attempt to illicit a response from you.

If he wanted to go to a hotel, he would just go, he wouldn't tell you and THEN go.

He's saying these things to you beforehand for a REASON.

He is after a response from you.

I would hazard a guess he's trying to get you to beg him to stay or something like that.

You say "fine, go" and he gets frustrated that he's not achieving the goal he set out for at all.

Has he always been this passive aggressive?

Not saying what he wants and negotiating like an adult, but instead playing these ridiculous head games to get what he wants in some roundabout way?

All these little mental tests and things he's doing, it's ridiculously passive aggressive. If he wants something he needs to just sit his arse down and ask for it.


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> I am not bashing him to friends but to family I might be bashing him because they need to understand I'm not a crazy person to divorce him NOW ( because of hugely better paying job and fact they felt we were great together).
> I think he want to intervene I cant have him doing anything


Telling the truth is not the same as bashing. What I mean is that you are not going around calling him names and so forth. Telling what happened and what you feel is not bashing.


----------



## clipclop2

I would be irritated at my father, too. He is probably worried about you being alone and only looking at out from that angle. Your dad should try to understand that you must not have been that good together of your STBXH had an affair with a woman brazen enough to show up on your doorstep.

Are you sure you want to have your STBXH share the 401k loan debt? He is also likely entitled to half of the value of the account.


----------



## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> I would be irritated at my father, too. He is probably worried about you being alone and only looking at out from that angle. Your dad should try to understand that you must not have been that good together of your STBXH had an affair with a woman brazen enough to show up on your doorstep.
> 
> Are you sure you want to have your STBXH share the 401k loan debt? He is also likely entitled to half of the value of the account.



I didn't even tell him about the ow coming here...he knows h cheated isn't remorseful but that about it. It thinks it should be worked out given how long we have been married.

As far as the 401k I didn't think about that I was told the loan is a community debt since it was used to pay for mortgage. the atty didn't mention anything about sharing the value of the account. its a lot almost 600 a month which was fine while h was paying the bulk of expenses but since divorcing not fair...


----------



## arandomlady

So more ridiculousness -I pushed for h to get the d papers today since he was off, what does he do, goes to get watches I brought for him over the years fixed...really? then have the nerve to ask if I want to go to dinner.. we are back there again with him just wanting to ignore issue. 

I told him I'm past dinner where are the papers. hes like oh the courthouse is closed now, he has been lollygagging around allday... ok he is stalling because I told him I'm not paying squat except for the car I'm driving, want half the company car value that I own out right and want half the 401k loans paid. he balks at the idea I am staying here free I told him again I don't want the house staying just long enough to save seeing as how my check is eaten up by the 401k loan payment...

so he went out while I was in class hoop he stays out. he says if I had known you wanted the papers I would have gotten then now have to wait for me to come back in 2 weeks... passive aggressive - I specifically told him to get them (I don't have off during the week for several months) not taking off when he is here with nothng to do on his day off.

Anyway- I will sign the papers just to be done. I don't expect he wil do right by the loans and it might mess me up in the ch7 if somehow I got the money anyway.

can we just be finished without all the games.. I am agreeing to what he wanted now he is walking it back... well I'm stomping forward


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> It's just more passive aggression.
> 
> He's just thrashing about, doing things in an attempt to illicit a response from you.
> 
> If he wanted to go to a hotel, he would just go, he wouldn't tell you and THEN go.
> 
> He's saying these things to you beforehand for a REASON.
> 
> He is after a response from you.
> 
> I would hazard a guess he's trying to get you to beg him to stay or something like that.
> 
> You say "fine, go" and he gets frustrated that he's not achieving the goal he set out for at all.
> 
> Has he always been this passive aggressive?
> 
> Not saying what he wants and negotiating like an adult, but instead playing these ridiculous head games to get what he wants in some roundabout way?
> 
> All these little mental tests and things he's doing, it's ridiculously passive aggressive. If he wants something he needs to just sit his arse down and ask for it.




there is a lot of that. cant he see that i'm not taking the bait!!!
it like he thinks its going to blow over if he just wait it out...I'm actually over it and want to try my hand at being alone for the first time in like 15 years...its that bad


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> So more ridiculousness -I pushed for h to get the d papers today since he was off, what does he do, goes to get watches I brought for him over the years fixed...really? then have the nerve to ask if I want to go to dinner.. we are back there again with him just wanting to ignore issue.


Yep, he' wants you begging him. Just like I said before.



arandomlady said:


> I told him I'm past dinner where are the papers. hes like oh the courthouse is closed now, he has been lollygagging around allday...


Is it not to your benefit that he lollygag while you save your money?

Why press him to do anything if you have a routine set up and he's paying the mortgage?



arandomlady said:


> ok he is stalling because I told him I'm not paying squat except for the car I'm driving, want half the company car value that I own out right and want half the 401k loans paid.


Hmmm... Are you ready to move? Isn't your plan to just keep your head down until bankruptcy is over and you have saved enough to move?

Why press him, won't that spoil your plan?



arandomlady said:


> he balks at the idea I am staying here free I told him again I don't want the house staying just long enough to save seeing as how my check is eaten up by the 401k loan payment...


Oh dear. You need to STOP putting your cards on the table. This is a poker game OK?

You cannot just drop all your plans at his feet like that. He will do everything he can to UPSET them.

NEVER reveal your PLANS to a WAYWARD.

NEVER show them what cards you have.

Seems like his pouting has teased the truth out of you.

This is why I said don't engage.

When your wayward is hostile, and walking around like some caged animal you do NOT drop your plans at their feet.

If you have a plan, then you do it, you do NOT INCLUDE them in it. You do NOT REVEAL it.

This is the time to turn the tables here. HE has been EXCLUDING YOU from HIS plans for a long long time.

NOW, it's time to turn the tables and YOU keep YOUR plans close to the vest.



arandomlady said:


> so he went out while I was in class hoop he stays out. he says if I had known you wanted the papers I would have gotten then now have to wait for me to come back in 2 weeks... passive aggressive -


Just let him talk.. YOU say NOTHING about your plans.



arandomlady said:


> I specifically told him to get them (I don't have off during the week for several months) not taking off when he is here with nothng to do on his day off.


He's a passive aggressive. That's the LAST thing he's going to do is what you ASK him to do.



arandomlady said:


> Anyway- I will sign the papers just to be done. I don't expect he wil do right by the loans and it might mess me up in the ch7 if somehow I got the money anyway.


Then do the following :

1. sit down with your attorney or whomever and figure out what's best for YOU long term.
2. You follow through on the plan you put together with your attorney.
3. Do NOT REVEAL that plan to your husband, whatever it is, he will do everything he can to UPSET your plan.

I got the impression your plan was to 

a. keep your head down
b. wait out the bankruptcy
c. save money for yourself

If you reveal that a - c plan to your husband he's just going to DERAIL it to STIR you UP.
_
Keep your cards hidden at ALL TIMES here._



arandomlady said:


> can we just be finished without all the games.. I am agreeing to what he wanted now he is walking it back... well I'm stomping forward


He's passive aggressive. He does not know what he wants right now anyways.

YOU need to stop showing your cards.

You are an individual now, not part of a couple. He's just trying to STIR you UP to find out what your PLANS are. He will DERAIL whatever your plans are. DO NOT REVEAL your PLANS.

You don't walk up to the guy and say "I am bleeding you dry to pay for everything while I save my money.."... you just DO IT and keep quiet until you are ready to LEAVE.

Assume he's not going to cooperate. You do what you need to do to get YOURSELF in the BEST position you can long term. You do NOT show him the plan. You do what you need to do to get to your goals.

It was my impression that your goal was to keep quiet and finish off the bankruptcy while saving money.

How is pressing him to sign papers and attempting to negotiate with him directly part of that plan?

NEVER show him what your goals are. Do NOT attempt to negotiate with him.

Don't ENGAGE.

Don't reveal ANY PLAN.

He is clearly hostile and will not cooperate. Any attempt you make to negotiate he will simply exploit any details you share.

Do NOT ENGAGE him.

IF it's best for YOU to get a divorce now, then YOU DO THAT. Do NOT ask HIM to do it.

IF it's best for you to NOT do the divorce until bankruptcy is over, then keep your head down until it IS best for you, then YOU DO IT.

STOP attempting to WORK as a TEAM with a HOSTILE PARTY. It will BACKFIRE on YOU.

I realize you do this intuitively, and it seems natural, but it is NOT to YOUR BENEFIT to do that with this man.

You need to work with your bankruptcy trustee only here. If legally you have access to his accounts and can move money around to your benefit then do that. You do NOT TELL HIM you are doing that. You just do it.

LESS is MORE with regards to how you engage this man right now.


He is going to pout, throw fits, cajole, invite you to dinners, charm you, he will do whatever he can to get you where he wants YOU to be. Which is most likely NOT where you want to end up.

You do NOT reveal your plans no matter WHAT he says. Just withhold all responses - poker face only. Do NOT REVEAL your plans.

You are emotionally attached given your years together, but you have to realize that's a VULNERABILITY to you now.

LESS is MORE with regards to how you engage this man right now.


----------



## Allen_A

Damage control here now may be to entertain some of his lame efforts, just to throw him off kilter for what your plans are.

You just handed him all your plans on a silver platter.

You will have to repair that somehow.

Just keep your plans to yourself.

NEVER ENTRUST your FINANCIAL WELL BEING into the hands of a REMORSELESS LIAR and CHEATER

When you reveal your plans, you are enTRUSTing them to him.

Why enTRUST your well being to the likes of this man?


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Yep, he' wants you begging him. Just like I said before.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it not to your benefit that he lollygag while you save your money?
> 
> Why press him to do anything if you have a routine set up and he's paying the mortgage?
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm... Are you ready to move? Isn't your plan to just keep your head down until bankruptcy is over and you have saved enough to move?
> 
> Why press him, won't that spoil your plan?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh dear. You need to STOP putting your cards on the table. This is a poker game OK?
> 
> You cannot just drop all your plans at his feet like that. He will do everything he can to UPSET them.
> 
> NEVER reveal your PLANS to a WAYWARD.
> 
> NEVER show them what cards you have.
> 
> Seems like his pouting has teased the truth out of you.
> 
> This is why I said don't engage.
> 
> When your wayward is hostile, and walking around like some caged animal you do NOT drop your plans at their feet.
> 
> If you have a plan, then you do it, you do NOT INCLUDE them in it. You do NOT REVEAL it.
> 
> This is the time to turn the tables here. HE has been EXCLUDING YOU from HIS plans for a long long time.
> 
> NOW, it's time to turn the tables and YOU keep YOUR plans close to the vest.
> 
> 
> 
> Just let him talk.. YOU say NOTHING about your plans.
> 
> 
> 
> He's a passive aggressive. That's the LAST thing he's going to do is what you ASK him to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Then do the following :
> 
> 1. sit down with your attorney or whomever and figure out what's best for YOU long term.
> 2. You follow through on the plan you put together with your attorney.
> 3. Do NOT REVEAL that plan to your husband, whatever it is, he will do everything he can to UPSET your plan.
> 
> I got the impression your plan was to
> 
> a. keep your head down
> b. wait out the bankruptcy
> c. save money for yourself
> 
> If you reveal that a - c plan to your husband he's just going to DERAIL it to STIR you UP.
> _
> Keep your cards hidden at ALL TIMES here._
> 
> 
> 
> He's passive aggressive. He does not know what he wants right now anyways.
> 
> YOU need to stop showing your cards.
> 
> You are an individual now, not part of a couple. He's just trying to STIR you UP to find out what your PLANS are. He will DERAIL whatever your plans are. DO NOT REVEAL your PLANS.
> 
> You don't walk up to the guy and say "I am bleeding you dry to pay for everything while I save my money.."... you just DO IT and keep quiet until you are ready to LEAVE.
> 
> Assume he's not going to cooperate. You do what you need to do to get YOURSELF in the BEST position you can long term. You do NOT show him the plan. You do what you need to do to get to your goals.
> 
> It was my impression that your goal was to keep quiet and finish off the bankruptcy while saving money.
> 
> How is pressing him to sign papers and attempting to negotiate with him directly part of that plan?
> 
> NEVER show him what your goals are. Do NOT attempt to negotiate with him.
> 
> Don't ENGAGE.
> 
> Don't reveal ANY PLAN.
> 
> He is clearly hostile and will not cooperate. Any attempt you make to negotiate he will simply exploit any details you share.
> 
> Do NOT ENGAGE him.
> 
> IF it's best for YOU to get a divorce now, then YOU DO THAT. Do NOT ask HIM to do it.
> 
> IF it's best for you to NOT do the divorce until bankruptcy is over, then keep your head down until it IS best for you, then YOU DO IT.
> 
> STOP attempting to WORK as a TEAM with a HOSTILE PARTY. It will BACKFIRE on YOU.
> 
> I realize you do this intuitively, and it seems natural, but it is NOT to YOUR BENEFIT to do that with this man.
> 
> You need to work with your bankruptcy trustee only here. If legally you have access to his accounts and can move money around to your benefit then do that. You do NOT TELL HIM you are doing that. You just do it.
> 
> LESS is MORE with regards to how you engage this man right now.
> 
> 
> He is going to pout, throw fits, cajole, invite you to dinners, charm you, he will do whatever he can to get you where he wants YOU to be. Which is most likely NOT where you want to end up.
> 
> You do NOT reveal your plans no matter WHAT he says. Just withhold all responses - poker face only. Do NOT REVEAL your plans.
> 
> You are emotionally attached given your years together, but you have to realize that's a VULNERABILITY to you now.
> 
> LESS is MORE with regards to how you engage this man right now.


********************


Thank you- very much such a thoughtful and carefully explained assessment of the situation. I am going to try give my reasoning albeit flawed in hopes I can shed some light on what I'm trying to do...


Unfortunately plans have changed for me to lay low because the situation is just too volatile financially. Its useless for me to hide cards if he is setting the poker room on fire. He is too erratic and has stated he is not paying the trustee or the mortgage. 

This puts me in a precarious position because I’m not paying them either but I’m in the house that can be foreclosed upon. Granted this will probably take a couple of months but because we are in ch 13 bankruptcy already this can be done a lot quicker if we fail to remain in the plan.

The catch 22-He is now saying he does want the house but he cant afford to pay the trustee, mortgage, and his expenses in another state. Obviously, I cannot trust what he will and wont do so I have to plan for the worst. 

Long term- I don’t want to remain married to him given the reasons previously stated. He has no intentions of doing anything in the marriage to fix it plus my instinct tells me to move on. I cant invest anything else financially or emotionally in this marriage anymore. What I have to my advantage, He doesn’t think I really mean it, I can tell by his reactions with him being here now.

The new bankruptcy atty says I need to be divorced in order to file ch7 and get out from any financial obligation for community debts in the marriage which include the house. At issue: I cant afford the divorce atty fee as it would take the savings I have to relocate with job transfer (eventually) I cant pay thousands of dollars to divorce when its not absolutely necessary given our simple circumstance. 

The plan was to file the divorce pro se uncontested (we don’t have any kids or assets just the 1 car paid off in my name and I already agreed to see and split that) I don’t want the house so that’s not a factor either. 

The bankruptcy is a lot more complicated cant do that pro se given the fact I’m already in ch13 and he is threatening to leave the plan by refusal to pay. Even when I manage to get the divorce, I cant file the ch 7 right away because of my income issue which is being worked on and need a few months to bring down average monthly earnings.

My only contention in this whole thing are the 401k loans. The problem is that I cant discharge the 401k debt which comes out of my paycheck without forfeiting the funds and causing a huge tax bill by liquidating the account which because I am under 55 I don’t think I can do anyway.

Bottom line- I don’t have a problem letting the 401k loan issue go. Ultimately the debt is being repaid to myself. Now am I going to try to get what I can if he will agree in the pro se divorce papers, YES. However, if push comes to shove, will I pay a D atty thousands of $ to try to get it when I know it may open another can of worms as another posted indicated about the sharing of the entire value of the account accrued while we were married, along with other issues neither one of us anticipated-NO.

You are right about telling the truth about what my hangups are..Its never been a secret about the 401k loan, the agreement was that when we got things under control know that he is making good money, he would restore my account and also build his up. So I am trying to guilt trip this out of him, he cheated and broke promises in more ways than one and I am harping on that- It probably wont work but doesn’t hurt to try. 

As far as living arrangement, if he decides he does want to keep the house and continues paying the mortgage, I already know that he cant legally get me out of the house without a significant fight per atty. He would need his own divorce atty for that (which he doesn’t want to pay either). 

Yes I told him I don’t plan to stay forever just because he is now saying not fair I stay here and not pay anything. I didn’t give a timeline as to when or if I will do anything. Just said not staying forever…(plus he doesn’t really think I’ll leave him anyway).

To me its not putting cards on the card in as much it is to preempt the worse case scenario response from him. I want him to pull out all the stops now so I have no surprises later. Since we are not actively reconciling , without me saying anything he can ascertain certain facts. I need to see where he is REALLY at because he says one thing and means another most of the time.

Yes, if I really wanted to, I could take off work and go get the D papers as I am the one in town 100% of the time while he is only here on his days off. As I stated before, I want him to do everything because this unraveling is HIS DOING. I am not going to lift a finger. I know that because I am telling him to get the divorce papers, he will do the opposite…I want to flail around as well matching his trashing about with the push /pull approach…even if he manages to do that, there are other contingencies I am considering…

By me *NOT* filing divorce myself, this is the damage control. He knows that by nature I’m a doer, he is probably thinking if I really wanted out of this marriage, I have the will and know how to get it done like yesterday, so since I haven’t … I must not really want a divorce.

For now, I AM entertaining his efforts which is why there are more and more lame attempts by him to draw me in as of late. The long and short of it-Its kinda of like we are both playing a game of divorce chicken. I admit, its counterintuitive for me to tell him to hurry with the divorce when technically I could use more time… again I need to see what he will do if he thinks its really over…

As convoluted as this is, result is still the same, yes I want to stall and save money and ultimately leave when it is most convenient. The goal is a moving target, the strategy/tactics have to be adjusted. With that being said, I agree going forward Mum is the word.


----------



## arandomlady

SO he wanted to talk -SAYING he will do whatever it takes to save the marriage. I told him I am suspending belief until I SEE and EXPERIENCE changes. I am going to humor him because it will not cost me to do so plus this does into shoring up my uncertain stance and buying time though I did want to see the worst so I could be prepared in advance.

I told him that I already outlined what it is needed and he needs to refer to that and that I cant make any promises about what I will decide but we cant move forward given the current state of things. he just keep saying he will do everything he can just wants me to stop talking about divorce. Ok I wont talk about it...


----------



## Allen_A

Just don't say anything to him now..he's talking a lot, but doing little.

Even is threatening to not pay the mortgage etc.. he's talking to stir you up. He is throwing stones hoping to get a hit.

Don't' listen to his words, listen to what he does.

I will reply more later.. making dinner...

But ya, don't talk about divorce, just say nothing.

Don't say anything unless it's part of an agenda or plan. Do NOT SHARE ANY FINANCIAL PLANS or INFO with him of ANY KIND.

Just keep it to yourself for now.

You mentioned you outlined what you expect him to do to repair the marriage, have you posted that outline here that you shared with him?


----------



## Allen_A

> For now, I AM entertaining his efforts which is why there are more and more lame attempts by him to draw me in as of late. The long and short of it-Its kinda of like we are both playing a game of divorce chicken. I admit, its counter intuitive for me to tell him to hurry with the divorce when technically I could use more time… again I need to see what he will do if he thinks its really over…


OK, how many months do you need to stall this out with him continuing to pay for mortgage and bankruptcy?

1. Outline what he needs to do to repair the marriage in writing (paste it here first, I am sure some would be happy to review)
2. Outline the behaviors he needs to NOT engage in (paste it here first, I am sure some would be happy to review)
3. Continue with saving your $$$
4. Leave him to play cat while you play wayward mouse for a while

He will get frustrated, but I would suggest you go along with it until the financial situation improves.

But you would have to let him know

a. no threats to stop paying mortgage and bankruptcy, etc
b. no OW

That sort of thing...

Let him know if he can do that for three months, you will consider working on marital repair.

That at least buys you three months. I was gonna say six, but I doubt he has the patience to "woo you" for three months without a response from you.

By no means am I suggesting you have sex or anything, but if he wants to go out for dinner or something, and that can buy you some time and keep the $$$ you may as well humor him.

That's what I am thinking right now. Show him you will give him the chance to make efforts to repair the damage he's made. Use that time to stabilize your financial situation, and plan for an exit later.

That's my suggestion right now.

I tend to not pay much heed to wayward's threats. Spouse's threaten to do stuff all the time but don't follow through.

Do you still have access to financial accounts to pay the mortgage or has he moved money some place you can't get at it?



> Its useless for me to hide cards if he is setting the poker room on fire. He is too erratic and has stated he is not paying the trustee or the mortgage.


No, I think it's to your benefit to always keep your short term plans and long term plans to yourself. Always.

The only reason to share personal or financial information with someone is if you can do both of the following :

a. trust them to help improve your situation
b. trust them to not contaminate the situation

Whatever you tell him, he will use that as a carrot and stick against you. Anything you say to HIM is a vulnerability to exploit. Even when he threatens, just show no response. He's TESTING for WEAKNESSES. No mater what he says he should get a poker face only. No words, no reaction. THAT is the SAFEST response for you.

He can set fire to whatever he wants to. You sharing your plans with him is NOT in your best interest no matter how tenuous the situation is.

If you plan to exit tomorrow morning, you do NOT want to reveal that sort of thing to him, etc.

Share NOTHING. Right now as you said yourself he's erratic. So the last thing you want to do is show him your plans. NEVER share your plans.

If you want to say SOMETHING, then say something that confuses the situation for him instead : 

"I just don't know if I could ever trust you again..."

That more or less says NOTHING. BUT it gives him something the dog a bone to chew on for the moment.

Never show interest in finances verbally, he will just threaten to withhold the finances. Whatever inch you give him, he will threaten to take a mile away to pressure you.

So, say NOTHING.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> OK, how many months do you need to stall this out with him continuing to pay for mortgage and bankruptcy?
> 
> 1. Outline what he needs to do to repair the marriage in writing (paste it here first, I am sure some would be happy to review)
> 2. Outline the behaviors he needs to NOT engage in (paste it here first, I am sure some would be happy to review)
> 3. Continue with saving your $$$
> 4. Leave him to play cat while you play wayward mouse for a while
> 
> He will get frustrated, but I would suggest you go along with it until the financial situation improves.
> 
> But you would have to let him know
> 
> a. no threats to stop paying mortgage and bankruptcy, etc
> b. no OW
> 
> That sort of thing...
> 
> Let him know if he can do that for three months, you will consider working on marital repair.
> 
> That at least buys you three months. I was gonna say six, but I doubt he has the patience to "woo you" for three months without a response from you.
> 
> By no means am I suggesting you have sex or anything, but if he wants to go out for dinner or something, and that can buy you some time and keep the $$$ you may as well humor him.
> 
> That's what I am thinking right now. Show him you will give him the chance to make efforts to repair the damage he's made. Use that time to stabilize your financial situation, and plan for an exit later.
> 
> That's my suggestion right now.
> 
> I tend to not pay much heed to wayward's threats. Spouse's threaten to do stuff all the time but don't follow through.
> 
> Do you still have access to financial accounts to pay the mortgage or has he moved money some place you can't get at it?
> 
> 
> 
> No, I think it's to your benefit to always keep your short term plans and long term plans to yourself. Always.
> 
> The only reason to share personal or financial information with someone is if you can do both of the following :
> 
> a. trust them to help improve your situation
> b. trust them to not contaminate the situation
> 
> Whatever you tell him, he will use that as a carrot and stick against you. Anything you say to HIM is a vulnerability to exploit. Even when he threatens, just show no response. He's TESTING for WEAKNESSES. No mater what he says he should get a poker face only. No words, no reaction. THAT is the SAFEST response for you.
> 
> He can set fire to whatever he wants to. You sharing your plans with him is NOT in your best interest no matter how tenuous the situation is.
> 
> If you plan to exit tomorrow morning, you do NOT want to reveal that sort of thing to him, etc.
> 
> Share NOTHING. Right now as you said yourself he's erratic. So the last thing you want to do is show him your plans. NEVER share your plans.
> 
> If you want to say SOMETHING, then say something that confuses the situation for him instead :
> 
> "I just don't know if I could ever trust you again..."
> 
> That more or less says NOTHING. BUT it gives him something the dog a bone to chew on for the moment.
> 
> Never show interest in finances verbally, he will just threaten to withhold the finances. Whatever inch you give him, he will threaten to take a mile away to pressure you.
> 
> So, say NOTHING.


********************************



Once again you have been a real help with your insight, advise and especially for challenging me- redirecting me to what’s important. The situation is very disorienting, and even though I am working on self discipline and managing my emotions versus the financial aspects of this, its quite daunting and I am faltering a bit..

The bankruptcy atty says at least Oct to allow for the bonus to drop off average earnings and also the higher withholding to shore up lower net pay. The thing is I wanted to relocate via job transfer assuming the prime locale was available. So far the 2 locations that showed available turns out they were out of date postings and they are not. Besides where I am living now, there are very few places I’m willing to move to. It seems like nothing is lining up the way that it should for me to leave right now, which may be a good thing. 

What’s important here is that the only reason I would need to even file the ch7 in the 1st place is IF he fails to pay the ch13 because we are BOTH protected under it and there is no need for me to add another 7 years of bad credit for ME when I have paid into the plan and its halfway finished -which is why its such a sore point. 

Assuming he pays the ch 13 plan despite what happens to our marriage (because its actually in HIS best interest to do so) we both benefit by being done with it sooner as far as future credit and what not. 

In actually listening to him and being somewhat available while he has been here, he has shown his cards now and told me there is no way he is letting the house go or messing up with the trustee ( I think someone talked some sense into him about the trustee). Though the house is still underwater now, the market is coming back and with a 2% interest rate we got when I got us in a program to save the house years back, its not bad idea which is why I was going to try to keep it thinking about the longterm despite what happened.

Unfortunately, I do not have access to his new bank account, however, I have access to trustee and mortgage account so I will know when both are paid or not (which is really what I need to know). This part is critical for me to make the determination of what I should do and when. I already know exactly what he makes and the fact he is telling me he is getting progressions to make a lot more in a few months is very pertinent information…

The things I asked him to do for any reconciliation consideration were in the letter I posted here (see pg 7) that everyone said was too long. I cant remember if I ever gave him a modified version as I cant find it now, plus I felt like why cant he just figure it out and try to Do SOMETHING on his own to show me he can fix this or give a good faith effort at least...

Since he is professing his love and sorrow profusely and asking me “what can he do?” and saying "I don’t know what to do”, though it may be a farce, this is a time for me to really spell it out for him. I only said that I am so hurt and don't know what I am feeling and will think about it and let him know..( took everything in me for me NOT to say "didn't I already tell you and shouldn't you know etc, etc"

Because I know he can be utterly helpless sometimes, I tend to believe him somewhat and feel compelled to be more concise and exact this time but don't want to cross the line of doing any of the work and I mean it. 

When I’m done, I will actually mail it to his other address so he will receive it before the next time he comes here. Of course before sending it, I will post it here as I didn’t do that last time and you guys nailed me on the content, length, relevance, etc…lol

Yesterday I went ahead and did the trade in of the other car I own outright to allow him to get his proceeds out of and get his own vehicle. ( he joked that he was afraid I would come there and take the vehicle from him while he was sleeping or at work). 

I think I already explained why I’m doing this though he is not yet paying me the ½ the 401 loan... so wont rehash it here. He is very very happy now with HIS own vehicle and I got my money from it so this is good. Since he now has this car and has a note and I have the other one and my proceeds from that, we are even when it comes to the vehicles.

With that, he wanted to celebrate so I did break my own rule and went to dinner, with him paying of course. He was so happy and talking a lot and I didn’t say anything. Later, he wanted to play with his vehicle and me read the manual to him and figure it out, I agreed. Then he offered to make me a drink , I didn’t refuse. Later, He wanted a kiss, I refused explained I am not comfortable with that, he apologized the night ended there.

This morning I was up early cleaning, and he was getting ready to go he looked very sad and was kinda stalling to leave. He embraced for a hug, I finches but allowed it. He is already talking about what he wants to do when he comes back next week. I didn’t say anything… Looks like the 180 is looking more like 90- ai yi yi...


----------



## arandomlady

*Revised reconciliation condition letter*

Ok so this is what I am thinking about sending h since he asked. please feel free to review and comment of what needs to be done to make it acceptable. 

Something to keep in mind is that h has previously stated he is doing all he can-- this consists of saying sorry, he loves me, fact he is coming home, paying bills and trying to be with me. is all he needs to do and that he doesn't have time to do anything else with how hard he works. 

he is on a rotating schedule and is only home what averages to be a week out of the month. he has a tendency to either be defiant or completely subservient depending on what suits him at the moment.

At the defiant stage the last time I gave him something like this he said something to the effect of why should he do this when I have done x, y, and z to him for years... I have never cheated btw

Now that it appears that I might actually leave and are taking steps to do so, even at my own financial demise, i think he is coming to the realization that i might mean it so he more agreeable now--

please tell me what to include, take out etc - don't be shy
_____________________________________________________
H,
You know what has transpired the over the last few months and the toll it has taken on our marriage so I will not reiterate. The last time you were home, you seemed to be sincere in asking me what we could do to save our marriage. I have thought about this carefully and while I cannot guarantee what the outcome will be for this relationship, I can certainly assure you that if you are unable to meet the following conditions, I will have no choice but to assume you no longer want to be married and proceed accordingly.
Conditions
1.	Be tested for sexually transmitted diseases
2.	Full disclosures of all improper emotional and physical contact you have had with other women to include duration, circumstance, and motive.
3.	Do not make threats about -finances, divorce, discontinuing contact with me
4.	Provide proof you have closed all dating profiles sites and ended relationships with aforementioned inviduals in #2
5.	Self research into marriage building and repair after an affair sharing with me what you found and are willing to try to save the marriage
6.	Attend Individual counseling. Depending on other conditions being met, start martial counseling with me 
7.	Do not accuse me of having or previously having any improper emotional or physical contact with anyone, specifically a prior friend
8.	Adhere to attached boundary agreement

In return I will:
1.	Give an open mind and heart with intent to work on the marriage
2.	Stop name calling and refusing to contact you or engage in normal dialogue
3.	Listen without judgement and allow you to voice concerns without bring up affair
4.	Continue invidual conseling and attend martial couseling as couple when appropriate
5.	Not make threats about finances, divorce, discontinuing contact with you
6.	Research marriage repair after an affair and have engaging dialogue with your findings from your research
7.	Adhere to the attached boundary agreement




Marriage boundary contract

Going forward neither spouse will be able to have any opposite sex relationships without the other spouse’s approval. 
Cell phone texts, contact list, pictures and calls are not a secret and can be viewed freely by my spouse. The cheating spouse will close out any e-mail accounts or telephone numbers associated with affair.
Facebook account, including private messages, is not a secret and can be viewed anytime by my spouse.
I will not delete or hide any text message or Facebook message or e-mail of any kind.
I will let my spouse know exactly where I am at any point during the day. I will not make my spouse wonder where I am or what I’m doing.
I will call and explain in detail if I am to change my plans. For example, if I am going to be late from work – I will call before hand and explain.
If I go out socially without my spouse, I will let him/her exactly who I am going to meet and where.
I will try to share more about my work, new people who come into the office and conversations with colleagues (female and male).
I will make it a priority to be available on my cell phone when my spouse calls.
I will offer to share more about my life, the things that trouble me (or make me happy) – As much as possible


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> This morning I was up early cleaning, and he was getting ready to go he looked very sad and was kinda stalling to leave. He embraced for a hug, I finches but allowed it. He is already talking about what he wants to do when he comes back next week. I didn’t say anything… Looks like the 180 is looking more like 90- ai yi yi...


IF he's asking for direction that's fine. Give him directions that will keep him busy through October.

The goal now sounds like it is to stall him until at least October.

By stall I mean keep him paying into trustee and mortgage.

So, we draft a plan for HIM that runs to October that HE has to follow.

He's already revealed his vulnerabilities to you : 

No divorce. He wants you to continue to mother him as long as he can exploit that. He knows you will do all the work and he also knows he's not going to easily find that elsewhere. He also knows a divorce is gonna cost him $$$.

So, now you know how to push HIS buttons. That's exactly what YOU can't do. NEVER reveal your vulnerabilities to him like he just did with you.

You are deeply concerned he continue to pay mortgage and trustee, but you don't want him to KNOW that or he will threaten to withhold that every time you two have a disagreement.

You can't show him that's your agenda, goal, or concern. EVER. If he threatens you financially, don't even blink.

What you may benefit from is playing some online poker or some in person poker even. Get a feel for keeping your plans to yourself. That helped me when I had to keep myself from an outburst. I started a weekly poker night at my workplace. Gave me lots of practice at keeping my agenda to myself. If you have some female friends that would be interested in a poker night, I say go for it.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> Marriage boundary contract


Ok, this is a good start.

I am not sure what exact kind of work you do, but i would suggest writing this up more as a business plan with a schedule. With checklists rather than paragraphs.

The content you have here can work from that.

The other item is to offer to do everything he's doing : 

a. share phone, email, etc
b. get STD test
c. read marriage self help book
d. attend counseling

etc

I find it's a powerful incentive to stand up and do what you expect them to do.

For example if he blusters at the idea of getting an STD test it's far more influencing to produce your own test results document. Just hand it to him calmly and say "I am not asking you to do anything I don't do myself.... It's your turn."

You can do the same with the phone. Ask to see his phone and hand yours over to him without blinking even once.

If he throws a fit, you just say "I am not asking you to do anything I am not doing myself... it's your turn. Phone please."

That sort of thing keeps HIM from feeling picked on. I find that helps a lot.

I am not suggesting you actually work to reconcile, but it will reduce his tantrums.

You may want to think about a way to secure your discussion here. You don't want him finding that. I am not sure if you have that on a work laptop or whatnot. Just be sure he cannot locate your TAM account and thread, or that would derail everything.

If you are insisting on HIM having no privacy that's a hard sell when you are not letting him near your PC.

You could also pick up the divorce paperwork and fill it out. I am still not sure if that would press him to cooperate more OR if that would make him more antagonistic.

I will work on a draft of a reconciliation business plan with what you have here as a start.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> IF he's asking for direction that's fine. Give him directions that will keep him busy through October.
> 
> The goal now sounds like it is to stall him until at least October.
> 
> By stall I mean keep him paying into trustee and mortgage.
> 
> So, we draft a plan for HIM that runs to October that HE has to follow.
> 
> He's already revealed his vulnerabilities to you :
> 
> No divorce. He wants you to continue to mother him as long as he can exploit that. He knows you will do all the work and he also knows he's not going to easily find that elsewhere. He also knows a divorce is gonna cost him $$$.
> 
> So, now you know how to push HIS buttons. That's exactly what YOU can't do. NEVER reveal your vulnerabilities to him like he just did with you.
> 
> You are deeply concerned he continue to pay mortgage and trustee, but you don't want him to KNOW that or he will threaten to withhold that every time you two have a disagreement.
> 
> You can't show him that's your agenda, goal, or concern. EVER. If he threatens you financially, don't even blink.
> 
> What you may benefit from is playing some online poker or some in person poker even. Get a feel for keeping your plans to yourself. That helped me when I had to keep myself from an outburst. I started a weekly poker night at my workplace. Gave me lots of practice at keeping my agenda to myself. If you have some female friends that would be interested in a poker night, I say go for it.


------------------------------------------------------------------
The yoga and meditation workshops have been helping curb need for expression i.e outburst whenever I disagree with what h is saying. When he was talking to me being quiet and listening is what I am trying to do instead of object, rebut then redirect. its funny you mentioned learning poker because he actually plays poker live and online wanted me to learn and play with him..weird

At issue, I am worried about being able ease up on the 180 as much as he would be expecting in order to continue having him pay the mortgage and trustee without incident...he doesn't know of the timeline of what I am doing and what going on just vaguely knows I may leave since not happy ... and so he is at least giving the appearance he will try harder now.


he keeps expressing that he is not seeing the ow or anyone and is coming home to me and doing what he can. For me its not enough and I expressed that and he is now saying what then thus this latest document...

However when I have been talking to some other people who have gone thru this they are acting like its a blessing and saying I need to work with that as a start... I am wondering if anything he does will be enough. 

Accepting this is a ploy to stall for time, if he really does everything and has a change of attitude, actions and so on I don't know if I would still go thru with the divorce and feel conflicted about this because I made up my mind to do it already based on his previously actions.


I am scared he might do everything and go above and beyond then I will not be able to bring myself to leave because I still love him. Obviously if he doesn't agree and act on these thngs its much easier to follow thru with d


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Ok, this is a good start.
> 
> I am not sure what exact kind of work you do, but i would suggest writing this up more as a business plan with a schedule. With checklists rather than paragraphs.
> 
> The content you have here can work from that.
> 
> The other item is to offer to do everything he's doing :
> 
> a. share phone, email, etc
> b. get STD test
> c. read marriage self help book
> d. attend counseling
> 
> etc
> 
> I find it's a powerful incentive to stand up and do what you expect them to do.
> 
> For example if he blusters at the idea of getting an STD test it's far more influencing to produce your own test results document. Just hand it to him calmly and say "I am not asking you to do anything I don't do myself.... It's your turn."
> 
> You can do the same with the phone. Ask to see his phone and hand yours over to him without blinking even once.
> 
> If he throws a fit, you just say "I am not asking you to do anything I am not doing myself... it's your turn. Phone please."
> 
> That sort of thing keeps HIM from feeling picked on. I find that helps a lot.
> 
> I am not suggesting you actually work to reconcile, but it will reduce his tantrums.
> 
> You may want to think about a way to secure your discussion here. You don't want him finding that. I am not sure if you have that on a work laptop or whatnot. Just be sure he cannot locate your TAM account and thread, or that would derail everything.
> 
> If you are insisting on HIM having no privacy that's a hard sell when you are not letting him near your PC.
> 
> You could also pick up the divorce paperwork and fill it out. I am still not sure if that would press him to cooperate more OR if that would make him more antagonistic.
> 
> I will work on a draft of a reconciliation business plan with what you have here as a start.


----------------------------------
unfortunately we share the laptop so I use in private browsing and clear history and only log in when he is gone. I am extra careful about it.

I have agreed to conditions too in the document and will produce what I am asking for from him as it is more compelling that that way.

I don't want to say what I do, but I am not familiar with what a business plan looks like. I was hoping the conditions being number would be easier for him to follow and I could do the same with the boundary agreement but I wasn't sure if that was overkill

in thinking about what I said before I don't want to push buttons, reveal anything else, or make my situation hard than it needs to be. I am thinking though, depending how he implents this, would I find myself in accidental reconciliation when I am trying to exit but that was when I thought he wasn't trying... what happens to my resolve when if that changes... head hurts


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I am scared he might do everything and go above and beyond then I will not be able to bring myself to leave because I still love him. Obviously if he doesn't agree and act on these thngs its much easier to follow thru with d


The issue is not if you love him or not. It never was.

a. Is he trustWORTHY?
b. Can YOU trust him again?
c. Can he develop the maturity to restrain himself during a crisis?
d. Can he develop the maturity to resolve situations constructively in communication with you?

Those are the issues. And you have made that clear many times, that you don't think he's trustworthy.

You have to imagine yourselves in a bad place again, not a good one. Imagine ten years from now.

You have to imagine a bad place that you two are in ten years from now, and how MATURE he manages to be through that time. What if you YOU start cheating on HIM in ten years? How is HE going to handle THAT?

Will he help YOU through that bad time, or is he going to lie, cheat, and sneak around to help HIMSELF instead?

How much YOU love HIM is irrelevant. How capable HE is of PROPERLY LOVING YOU is the question.

You might want to get him a copy of _Not Just Friends_ to start with. You decide how many chapters you expect him to finish each week and discuss with you for one hour.

That would be part of the plan. That he read that book cover to cover.

But you have to manage that, he reads say 3 chapters each week, and you sit and discuss each chapter for 30 mins when he finishes it.

So, each chapter you two have a chat.

That's ONE thing he can do now is start reading that book.

But you ca'nt just hand the book to him and NOT TALK about it. You have to talk to him, get TWO copies and BOTH of you read it if you want.

But you work along with him, and at the end of each chapter you sit and have a discussion about it.

That should keep him busy.

His promises and claims are not enough.

I have heard it said many times that words are worthless. He has to DO something to DEMONSTRATE commitment.

But ya, in my opinion you don't sound as if you can trust him again after this. So whatever effort he does make, is just to keep him busy until October.

I don't recommend playing poker WITH him no. You don't want him learning your tells or anything like that. Learn independently from him with people you trust and respect.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> The issue is not if you love him or not. It never was.
> 
> a. Is he trustWORTHY?
> b. Can YOU trust him again?
> c. Can he develop the maturity to restrain himself during a crisis?
> d. Can he develop the maturity to resolve situations constructively in communication with you?
> 
> Those are the issues. And you have made that clear many times, that you don't think he's trustworthy.
> 
> You have to imagine yourselves in a bad place again, not a good one. Imagine ten years from now.
> 
> You have to imagine a bad place that you two are in ten years from now, and how MATURE he manages to be through that time. What if you YOU start cheating on HIM in ten years? How is HE going to handle THAT?
> 
> Will he help YOU through that bad time, or is he going to lie, cheat, and sneak around to help HIMSELF instead?
> 
> How much YOU love HIM is irrelevant. How capable HE is of PROPERLY LOVING YOU is the question.
> 
> You might want to get him a copy of _Not Just Friends_ to start with. You decide how many chapters you expect him to finish each week and discuss with you for one hour.
> 
> That would be part of the plan. That he read that book cover to cover.
> 
> But you have to manage that, he reads say 3 chapters each week, and you sit and discuss each chapter for 30 mins when he finishes it.
> 
> So, each chapter you two have a chat.
> 
> That's ONE thing he can do now is start reading that book.
> 
> But you ca'nt just hand the book to him and NOT TALK about it. You have to talk to him, get TWO copies and BOTH of you read it if you want.
> 
> But you work along with him, and at the end of each chapter you sit and have a discussion about it.
> 
> That should keep him busy.
> 
> His promises and claims are not enough.
> 
> I have heard it said many times that words are worthless. He has to DO something to DEMONSTRATE commitment.
> 
> But ya, in my opinion you don't sound as if you can trust him again after this. So whatever effort he does make, is just to keep him busy until October.
> 
> I don't recommend playing poker WITH him no. You don't want him learning your tells or anything like that. Learn independently from him with people you trust and respect.


------------------------------------

Thank you I needed that. I think I have too many people in my ear and starting to second guess myself. I have to say no to all of those and the maturity one is biggie because it colors everything. 


It seems to me at the least provocation or just plain boredom it he will dilly dally on dating sites. I know he is talking to women on there now and probably seeing them even while giving the appearance to work on things with me.

I know with my mind that love cant fix anything and the fact that I cant love this out of him or love him into becoming the man I need him to be. just need my heart to get with the program.

If i am being honest with myself, i never thought about the kind of man I actually want because he has been the only man I have ever had so have just been working with what I got you know.

I will order the just now friends and send to him and read it also. 
As far as timelines on completion and things like that I didn't want to be that specific as to not be controlling since that will be a push back. like me again telling him not only what i want but how i want it and when. i am thinking i am not going to get cooperation like that.

in all honesty i don't think he will follow through anyway then I will be forced to deal with implications of that and manage my emotions for the duration...

I cant help but think that sending him anything is just telling what i want so he can say no then do what he wants and i take it or leave which has been the pattern and that's why i was heading out first place.

Facing reality that the whole thing is moot is since cant trust him is critical you are so right. I just went into his email and what do i find, i message from a woman at dating site asking why she hasnt heard from him and his response he will talk to her when he gets his new work phone since the other one got damaged. FML


----------



## Catherine602

I've been following thread. The fact that you are having difficulty letting go resolutely is not unusual. It hard to turn on a dime. However, he seems to fit a pattern that if you see might make it easer to let him go. 

He is giving you hope just enough hope to keep you from acting but too little to show he is really interested in R. I'll bet he will read the book and tell he has had a revelation that you are right. Then continue with cheating while you hope. 

Your inability to move forward works in his favor. He gets to be a single man during the week and keep a sure thing on the W/E. It's financially favorable for him to keep stay put. Also chances are that he will have sex with you on the W/E as an added bonus. His financial dependence on you is minimal now. 

He just need to manipulate a little more so that he gets everything he wants. What reason will he have to stay after the Chapter 13 goes through. He is finished with the relationship but not with getting everything you so freely give. 

If trolling for sex does not work out during the week he is sure of pleasure on W/ E. He might be hiding money form. He has a new car and your name off of his account so he is happy. He has you convinced to hold on to the house for him which is an advantageous position for him. You have positioned yourself in favor of him in everything you do. When will you respect and love yourself enough to look out for your interest. 

It's easy for me to say this because I am not the one in the middle. If I were in your place, I would be manipulated just like you. It's human to hope and ignore a painful reality until you have no choice. Ask yourself what you are getting out of staying in the relationship compared to him. If you are giving more then then he has no reason to stop betraying you. He is gone.it's time for you to love yourself. 

You may need concert proof that he is a serial cheater. Would you be open to getting a VAR in his car? Get his phone or computer to find out. Make the decision to get out with your dignity intact and in control of the outcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I will order the just now friends and send to him and read it also.
> As far as timelines on completion and things like that I didn't want to be that specific as to not be controlling since that will be a push back. like me again telling him not only what i want but how i want it and when. i am thinking i am not going to get cooperation like that.


Well, if he needs more time, then let him HAVE IT! lol

Heck, if HE is going to stall FOR YOU, then that's great!

The point is to 

a. give him something to do
b. give him the impression you aren't planning an exit
c. give him something that MAY actually influence his maturity level - probably not, but him reading that book can't HURT as far as I can tell



arandomlady said:


> in all honesty i don't think he will follow through anyway then I will be forced to deal with implications of that and manage my emotions for the duration...


Well, even if he only goes through the motions for three months, that gives you three months to save right? Every day he stalls is to your benefit from my understanding. What you do'nt want is him to act NOW and stop making payments where they need to be made.



arandomlady said:


> I cant help but think that sending him anything is just telling what i want so he can say no then do what he wants and i take it or leave which has been the pattern and that's why i was heading out first place.


You are just asking him to read Chapter 1, and then sit with you for 30 minutes to discuss it.

You don't even have to have a conversation, just hear what he has to say about it.

But ya, he's probably NOT going to dive into it 100%.

That's fine though isn't it? As long as he keeps making his monthly payments until October?

This guy is textbook passive aggressive, so yes, he may just look at the book and tell you "no." That is what a passive aggressive would do. They will 

a. say they will do anything
b. ask you what hoops they need to jump through

c. upon given detailed instructions, they will just refuse to cooperate

So.. just make the tasks REALLY simple. If you give him a three page contract of steps to follow of course he's going to say it's too much. So... give him STEP 1 and don't mention the rest.

Just show him ONE HOOP at a TIME.



arandomlady said:


> Facing reality that the whole thing is moot is since cant trust him is critical you are so right. I just went into his email and what do i find, i message from a woman at dating site asking why she hasnt heard from him and his response he will talk to her when he gets his new work phone since the other one got damaged. FML


Exactly... there you go. You now have your answer.

This is his agenda :

a. pretend to YOU that he's doing marital repair
b. secretly looking for a parachute to jump to for himself

The guy just can't be ALONE. He can't just go to work, and come home, he HAS to have a female on his ARM apparently. And apparently ONE is not enough either.

How do you play this situation?

You could do either of the following :

a. maintain your image as a spouse willing to consider reconciliation, but say nothing about the new OW
b. maintain your image as a spouse willing to consider reconciliation by CONFRONTING him about her
c. file for divorce
d. email OW and ask her "why are you contacting a MARRIED MAN??"

I don't recommend C, since you are needing to wait til October to avoid financial problems.

D you have tried before and we know what happened there. You MAY scare this one off, it's hard to say...

So, you can confront him to make it LOOK like you are TRYING to repair your marriage. Confronting IS what you would do. This may give him more the impression you are NOT planning an exit, which is good.

OR you can just not bother, IF you think confronting him is going to result in him getting passive aggressive with finances.

It all really boils down to how he would react financially to you confronting him.


----------



## Allen_A

Catherine602 said:


> When will you respect and love yourself enough to look out for your interest.


ARL has already said that she's just saving $$$ for her exit, it's in her signature.

She's not trying to save her marriage.



Catherine602 said:


> It's easy for me to say this because I am not the one in the middle. If I were in your place, I would be manipulated just like you. It's human to hope and ignore a painful reality until you have no choice. Ask yourself what you are getting out of staying in the relationship compared to him. If you are giving more then then he has no reason to stop betraying you. He is gone.it's time for you to love yourself.


ARL is already resolved to EXIT. She's just needing strategies to keep him making his necessary payments until finances are cleared up in October.

The only discussion right now is the practicalities of strategy at this point.



Catherine602 said:


> You may need concert proof that he is a serial cheater. Would you be open to getting a VAR in his car? Get his phone or computer to find out. Make the decision to get out with your dignity intact and in control of the outcome.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's already made that decision. She's already separated.

ARL does not need any proof, she has already decided her husband is not trustworthy and has made a commitment to EXIT in October.


----------



## arandomlady

Catherine602 said:


> I've been following thread. The fact that you are having difficulty letting go resolutely is not unusual. It hard to turn on a dime. However, he seems to fit a pattern that if you see might make it easer to let him go.
> 
> He is giving you hope just enough hope to keep you from acting but too little to show he is really interested in R. I'll bet he will read the book and tell he has had a revelation that you are right. Then continue with cheating while you hope.
> 
> Your inability to move forward works in his favor. He gets to be a single man during the week and keep a sure thing on the W/E. It's financially favorable for him to keep stay put. Also chances are that he will have sex with you on the W/E as an added bonus. His financial dependence on you is minimal now.
> 
> He just need to manipulate a little more so that he gets everything he wants. What reason will he have to stay after the Chapter 13 goes through. He is finished with the relationship but not with getting everything you so freely give.
> 
> If trolling for sex does not work out during the week he is sure of pleasure on W/ E. He might be hiding money form. He has a new car and your name off of his account so he is happy. He has you convinced to hold on to the house for him which is an advantageous position for him. You have positioned yourself in favor of him in everything you do. When will you respect and love yourself enough to look out for your interest.
> 
> It's easy for me to say this because I am not the one in the middle. If I were in your place, I would be manipulated just like you. It's human to hope and ignore a painful reality until you have no choice. Ask yourself what you are getting out of staying in the relationship compared to him. If you are giving more then then he has no reason to stop betraying you. He is gone.it's time for you to love yourself.
> 
> You may need concert proof that he is a serial cheater. Would you be open to getting a VAR in his car? Get his phone or computer to find out. Make the decision to get out with your dignity intact and in control of the outcome.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Thanks for your response. I really should be working but cant focus right now so here goes...I know this is a lot to follow and the situation is typical in a lot of ways and not so typical in others.

First, I there is no physical or emotional bonding going on when the h comes home. as a matter of fact i have actually told him not to.. he comes home anyway which is strange to me because of the cold shoulder he gets and has been this way since i suspected the affair. we sleep on separate rooms i don't really communicate with him except for finances. 

i cant u/s this because he is getting no where with me on this. i have the appearance of caving here but not with him. this is where there is divergence in my circle of support half people say if he really wanted to leave be with someone else there is no way he would keep coming home with no sex or even me being nice for this long. others say it haven't been long enough to see what he wil really do.. but fct he isn't showing remorse and bending over backwards which they disagree on what that is is where the confusion is

he is not crazy. if he stopped coming home even though i am not having sex with him or actively in r, he knows that would end it so he will take my supposed abuse for now at least. just like he knows if he stops paying i will bolt the marriage in a second also.

what is happening is he makes threats not to come home or pay the bills, i don't respond then he continue doing both anyway...but he will tell me this is him showing he wants it work. i say you are supposed to that this doesntg make up for the affair lack or truck etc etc 

The issue with the car for me is not a big deal because i need my money out of now too ( in case i get the transfer), he needs a car in his name only. the other car is in my name and is my expense so we are even. he might think i will use that money to put back into the household. he is sadly mistaken. he dare not ask me as i am owed on the 401k loans - not sure if you caught that ...

I am not paying anything just the ultilities in the house and my car. he may still lose the house and the ch13 protection if he cant keep up he payments by himself. I'm not going to help with this because I am already owed money i will not likely get back

I disagree that I'm not getting something out of this if he maintains the status quo. I feel as long as I'm not sleeping with him or going towards r while i build cash. what i am losing really?

Yes, i love him and want him to move heaven and earth to be with me. if he wont then i cant be his wife in actions which is why there has been no movement here

he is realizing this is not changing so he is trying to sweeten the deal and acgt like he will do more.. I'm humoring him but also I'm afraid of being a sucker in my attempts to be cunning about this...( not really my nature)

Allen A has a clear picture of what I'm trying to do but its getting murky with advice from the peanut gallery. i don't want to have any regrets that i didn't try before i permanently close the door, its true


----------



## vi_bride04

Tell the peanut gallery unless they have extensive experience in dealing with an affair and trying to reconcile correctly and effectively to keep their mouth shut about your situation.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Well, if he needs more time, then let him HAVE IT! lol
> 
> Heck, if HE is going to stall FOR YOU, then that's great!
> 
> The point is to
> 
> a. give him something to do
> b. give him the impression you aren't planning an exit
> c. give him something that MAY actually influence his maturity level - probably not, but him reading that book can't HURT as far as I can tell
> 
> 
> 
> Well, even if he only goes through the motions for three months, that gives you three months to save right? Every day he stalls is to your benefit from my understanding. What you do'nt want is him to act NOW and stop making payments where they need to be made.
> 
> 
> 
> You are just asking him to read Chapter 1, and then sit with you for 30 minutes to discuss it.
> 
> You don't even have to have a conversation, just hear what he has to say about it.
> 
> But ya, he's probably NOT going to dive into it 100%.
> 
> That's fine though isn't it? As long as he keeps making his monthly payments until October?
> 
> This guy is textbook passive aggressive, so yes, he may just look at the book and tell you "no." That is what a passive aggressive would do. They will
> 
> a. say they will do anything
> b. ask you what hoops they need to jump through
> 
> c. upon given detailed instructions, they will just refuse to cooperate
> 
> So.. just make the tasks REALLY simple. If you give him a three page contract of steps to follow of course he's going to say it's too much. So... give him STEP 1 and don't mention the rest.
> 
> Just show him ONE HOOP at a TIME.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly... there you go. You now have your answer.
> 
> This is his agenda :
> 
> a. pretend to YOU that he's doing marital repair
> b. secretly looking for a parachute to jump to for himself
> 
> The guy just can't be ALONE. He can't just go to work, and come home, he HAS to have a female on his ARM apparently. And apparently ONE is not enough either.
> 
> How do you play this situation?
> 
> You could do either of the following :
> 
> a. maintain your image as a spouse willing to consider reconciliation, but say nothing about the new OW
> b. maintain your image as a spouse willing to consider reconciliation by CONFRONTING him about her
> c. file for divorce
> d. email OW and ask her "why are you contacting a MARRIED MAN??"
> 
> I don't recommend C, since you are needing to wait til October to avoid financial problems.
> 
> D you have tried before and we know what happened there. You MAY scare this one off, it's hard to say...
> 
> So, you can confront him to make it LOOK like you are TRYING to repair your marriage. Confronting IS what you would do. This may give him more the impression you are NOT planning an exit, which is good.
> 
> OR you can just not bother, IF you think confronting him is going to result in him getting passive aggressive with finances.
> 
> It all really boils down to how he would react financially to you confronting him.




-----------------

You are killing me with your logic...lol ok I think need to come clean with my "true" self. I think I may want out now and having hard time playing the game. there is a duality with myself that is very disturbing. I am trying to determine which voice is the real me? 

When i found out the 2 locations were filled i was crestfallen. I was ready going to go, you don't even know. i had told the atty if i get the opportunity to transfer before oct, i have to take it and will just figure out filing and everything from there and will fly back here as needed

some people re telling me that didn't happened because God wants me to try again with h or I would have had green light to move...others are saying bleed him dry don't try to get out yet.

he has said in the past that he does the dating site to get me to engage with him because i am not dealing with him on any level. to get my attention. I say maybe but more inclined now to think trolling for sex since especially snce not having any with him

that being said-i think its a mistake to confront him about this. i agree i do need to take my foot of gas on 180 and stop exit talk. if he can give the appearance of trying to make it work i will play along.

unfortunately, part of me just wants to not play any games anymore and just quit get on with my life elsewhere and let the chips fall where they may. i am resisting this because i could use all the money from having to py rent somewhere that i can.
now that i have more money from the car proceeds getting very very hard to justify reaming except for me being able to file ch7. 

important point-he told me he isn't going to let the ch13 go so potentially I get away without filling the ch7 but just go thru with the d now and only file it if he fails the plan and only then...

I feel the patience is for implementing the strategy I've been talking about wearing thin and I know why...


----------



## Allen_A

My guess is that he's returning to your home periodically to keep you as his Plan B, backup plan, house manager

You DO serve a purpose for him currently, and you may serve some purpose long term.

But by the sounds of it he wants a funtime partner and a second female to manage the household.

That's my guess as to why he's not pressing you to divorce or leave.

OR he may believe it's to his financial detriment for you to divorce right now.

OR he may just not be ready for big changes like you leaving.

Either way, as long as he's making payments then humor him I say.

Save your $$$ until October
Clear bankruptcy
EXIT the home
FILE for divorce
Alimony 

In that order I would imagine


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> he has said in the past that he does the dating site to get me to engage with him because i am not dealing with him on any level. to get my attention. I say maybe but more inclined now to think trolling for sex since especially since not having any with him


That's easy to figure out. Does he TELL YOU that he's going to the dating sites?

NO. He keeps it a SECRET.

So HOW on earth is HIM going on a dating site in SECRET supposed to influence YOU to ENGAGE HIM? lol

Sorry, the logic there is just plain obvious - he's LYING.

If he wants to passive aggressively pressure you to engage him he would need to do something you KNOW ABOUT.

How is him doing something you dont' know about going to pressure you to engage him? lol

He's clearly doing this, keeping it a secret, and it has nothing to do with you.

He's just giving you smoke screens to justify his behavior.



arandomlady said:


> that being said-i think its a mistake to confront him about this. i agree i do need to take my foot off gas on 180 and stop exit talk. if he can give the appearance of trying to make it work i will play along.


As long as you can mentally tolerate his passive aggressive behavior yes. If he gets to be too much, you may just have to take the financial hit and exit before October.

You will just have to play that one day by day.



arandomlady said:


> unfortunately, part of me just wants to not play any games anymore and just quit get on with my life elsewhere and let the chips fall where they may.


Recovering emotionally from a divorce and infidelity is hard enough. Dealing with bankruptcy on TOP of that?

that may be too much for you. I would honestly try to save $$$ if he's not too troublesome.

I think you would find it much easier to EXIT knowing your finances are stable on your way out the door.

You have to decide each day if he's getting to be too much anxiety for you.

There is a substantial $$$ cost to exit early. You have to decide if exiting early is worth what it will cost you.

I would imagine the price of the early exit goes DOWN each month as you get closer to completing bankruptcy.



arandomlady said:


> i am resisting this because i could use all the money from having to pay rent somewhere that i can.


Yep.. rent and other costs you are sparing yourself the burden of by remaining where you are now.



arandomlady said:


> now that i have more money from the car proceeds getting very very hard to justify reaming except for me being able to file ch7.


You may find you are financially stable BEFORE October, but from what you said your attorney said October?

So.. you have to do a risk assessment each week to determine what the cost of an early exit is to you.

How much is a month's rent? If you leave in July 01 2014 rather than Oct 01 2014 how much $$$ more would that cost you?

Is the price of being elsewhere worth that cost?

I find it's a LOT easier to make a decision when there's a $$ amount attached to it.

You can calculate how much this will cost you pretty easily I would think?

Sit down with a spreadsheet and work out the approximate financial cost to leave at 

week 0 - now
week 1 - 1 week from now
week 2 - two weeks from now, etc

so you know exactly what you are accepting by leaving earlier. I find its a lot easier to make a decision when you have a hard number cost on it.

Leaving now has a $$$ value, as does leaving next week, and leaving in Oct.. figure out the cost to you.



arandomlady said:


> important point-he told me he isn't going to let the ch13 go so potentially I get away without filling the ch7 but just go thru with the d now and only file it if he fails the plan and only then...


Well, his claims of what he's going to do seem to change with the weather and wind direction.. I would not pay much mind to what he SAYS, only what he DOES.



arandomlady said:


> I feel the patience is for implementing the strategy I've been talking about wearing thin and I know why...


Well, he's there right now, you may find it easier when he leaves.

Do you have any friends you can invite to stay with you the next time he comes by? Maybe a relative?

I would imagine he will be on better behavior if you have a guest in the house.


----------



## arandomlady

vi_bride04 said:


> Tell the peanut gallery unless they have extensive experience in dealing with an affair and trying to reconcile correctly and effectively to keep their mouth shut about your situation.


I know and this is why this is hard because they have but the circumstances are not the same so some are saying the fact that he comes home for nothing he wants you still just doesn't know how to fix help him fix it don't just walk away. Others say screw he isn't remorseful, he resents you and justifies it and will do it again get out!

I hate to seem cliché "I'm trying to find myself" I had extreme hesitancy about getting married but just figured that was normal. Now that I am alone most of the time, thinking did i make the wrong choice. also think its been so long stay the course if he's worth it

I felt the same about having kids but excuses, stalling until finally came to conclsion i didn't really want them. Now thinking should have did that with marriage too. I don't if its him or just the lifestyle or both... its been along time I am clearly not the same


----------



## Openminded

Do those advising you to stay have any idea what R is like when you don't have a really remorseful "all in" spouse? R is tough even when your spouse is doing everything possible to make it work. Trust once broken is very difficult to get back under any circumstances.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> My guess is that he's returning to your home periodically to keep you as his Plan B, backup plan, house manager
> 
> You DO serve a purpose for him currently, and you may serve some purpose long term.
> 
> But by the sounds of it he wants a funtime partner and a second female to manage the household.
> 
> That's my guess as to why he's not pressing you to divorce or leave.
> 
> OR he may believe it's to his financial detriment for you to divorce right now.
> 
> OR he may just not be ready for big changes like you leaving.
> 
> Either way, as long as he's making payments then humor him I say.
> 
> Save your $$$ until October
> Clear bankruptcy
> EXIT the home
> FILE for divorce
> Alimony
> 
> In that order I would imagine


-------------------------------------
House manager, why didn't i think of that... lol no that's it in a nutshell, he has a doer for wife so its very fitting. 

when you say clear bankruptcy- the ch13 will be over in about 2-3 years assuming its not dismissed for non payment in the interim. For both of us the preferred option would be to just finish the ch13 as is since already paid into and can get out sooner.

let me say that I will not file the ch7 unless the ch13 fails. the atty was assuming he wasn't going to pay the ch 13 plan to spite me which is suicide on his part. As long as he pays it, even once we are divorced i am still protected in the plan. If he doesn't then systems go to file ch7 for my escape

these things are interdependent. the longer i stay, the more likely he will make even more money which turns the tide on earnings. I don't expect to get alimony because i made more than for the duration except just now. It would take being married to him longer for that to come into play

The longer I stay I will save money. I don't know how long this is going to last with no affection from me even if i say i am working on marriage. To him this means affection. that i wont do especially with what i know.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I know and this is why this is hard because they have but the circumstances are not the same so some are saying the fact that he comes home for nothing he wants you still just doesn't know how to fix help him fix it don't just walk away. Others say screw he isn't remorseful, he resents you and justifies it and will do it again get out!


He does not come home for nothing, that's the gallerie's ASSUMPTION.

a. he has your company - it's nice to have someone in the home you are in with you sometimes
b. he can keep his eye on YOU - he may be snooping into your business and you do'nt even know it
c. does he EAT for FREE there? Does he buy is OWN food or does he eat the groceries YOU paid for?
d. does he use the plumbing at all to shower or do laundry? You pay for the utilities, so he is just USING your WATER for FREE
e. he gets to "reclaim" his castle once a month and feel like it's still his HOME

There is a lot he gets from returning to your home once a month.

Just let the peanut gallery know you recently caught him AGAIN with yet ANOTHER woman on a dating site over email.

He's returning home to HUMOR you.

I DO have an idea what he's thinking.

I suspect hes' thinking you have some use to him right now, particularly during bankruptcy, so he's fine with you managing his home and staying there.

He does NOT want to deal with the legalities of divorce right now
He does NOT want to have to manage his own home 100%
He does NOT want to manage his own finances 100%

You have a purpose to him, so he will not make an issue of you living there.

If you 

a. stop managing the home
b. stop managing his finances
c. file for divorce

He will likely INSIST that you LEAVE.

You are more or less a house-sitter to him right now.

You manage finances
You manage the home
You aren't filing for divorce and bringing legal trouble to his doorstep

Those are all things HE gets from you being there.

What work do you do for the HOME?

Lawn care
Cleaning
Repairs
Grocery Shopping
Pay bills/manage finances

etc?

What VALUE does the work you do in the marital home have?

That's my guess as to why he is asking you to stay.

He wants a house sitter
He does NOT want to have to deal with a divorce right now

That's my guess.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> -------------------------------------
> House manager, why didn't i think of that... lol no that's it in a nutshell, he has a doer for wife so its very fitting.


Managing a home is a lot of work

a. lawn care
b. vacuuming
c. grocery shopping
d. laundry
e. washing dishes
f. repairs - calling repairmen or do-it-yourself
g. pay bills/manage finances

I am sure there's more I didn't account for above.

If you do that, then HE doesn't' have to do it.

You save him the hassle of doing all that if you leave.

I imagine your home is TIDY. Does HE clean it or YOU? I BET my arse YOU CLEAN his home FOR HIM.

I would let someone live in my home for free too if they did a - g!!!

He doesn't need sex, he can find that on the internet.

But he CAN TRUST YOU to manage his HOME.. and you do it for nothing other than the roof over your head.

AND YOU PAY for his WATER and POWER.

Would you not want a deal like that when you buy your home in October?

A trustworthy person who will manage your home for FREE, simply for the cost of putting a roof over their head. AND they pay POWER and WATER?

Good deal I say.

He has a bachelor pad out of state, and you manage the household for him so he doesn't have to do it.

He just checks in once a month to freeload and make sure you are doing your job by the sounds of it.

Come home for nothing?

That's bull. He gets a LOT of of coming to your place once a month.

He gets reassurance that you are towing the line.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> That's easy to figure out. Does he TELL YOU that he's going to the dating sites?
> 
> NO. He keeps it a SECRET.
> 
> So HOW on earth is HIM going on a dating site in SECRET supposed to influence YOU to ENGAGE HIM? lol
> 
> Sorry, the logic there is just plain obvious - he's LYING.
> 
> If he wants to passive aggressively pressure you to engage him he would need to do something you KNOW ABOUT.
> 
> How is him doing something you dont' know about going to pressure you to engage him? lol
> 
> He's clearly doing this, keeping it a secret, and it has nothing to do with you.
> 
> He's just giving you smoke screens to justify his behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> As long as you can mentally tolerate his passive aggressive behavior yes. If he gets to be too much, you may just have to take the financial hit and exit before October.
> 
> You will just have to play that one day by day.
> 
> 
> 
> Recovering emotionally from a divorce and infidelity is hard enough. Dealing with bankruptcy on TOP of that?
> 
> that may be too much for you. I would honestly try to save $$$ if he's not too troublesome.
> 
> I think you would find it much easier to EXIT knowing your finances are stable on your way out the door.
> 
> You have to decide each day if he's getting to be too much anxiety for you.
> 
> There is a substantial $$$ cost to exit early. You have to decide if exiting early is worth what it will cost you.
> 
> I would imagine the price of the early exit goes DOWN each month as you get closer to completing bankruptcy.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.. rent and other costs you are sparing yourself the burden of by remaining where you are now.
> 
> 
> 
> You may find you are financially stable BEFORE October, but from what you said your attorney said October?
> 
> So.. you have to do a risk assessment each week to determine what the cost of an early exit is to you.
> 
> How much is a month's rent? If you leave in July 01 2014 rather than Oct 01 2014 how much $$$ more would that cost you?
> 
> Is the price of being elsewhere worth that cost?
> 
> I find it's a LOT easier to make a decision when there's a $$ amount attached to it.
> 
> You can calculate how much this will cost you pretty easily I would think?
> 
> Sit down with a spreadsheet and work out the approximate financial cost to leave at
> 
> week 0 - now
> week 1 - 1 week from now
> week 2 - two weeks from now, etc
> 
> so you know exactly what you are accepting by leaving earlier. I find its a lot easier to make a decision when you have a hard number cost on it.
> 
> Leaving now has a $$$ value, as does leaving next week, and leaving in Oct.. figure out the cost to you.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, his claims of what he's going to do seem to change with the weather and wind direction.. I would not pay much mind to what he SAYS, only what he DOES.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, he's there right now, you may find it easier when he leaves.
> 
> Do you have any friends you can invite to stay with you the next time he comes by? Maybe a relative?
> 
> I would imagine he will be on better behavior if you have a guest in the house.


----------------------------------------------


on the passive aggressive- absolutely! no he isn't going to tell m he's going on the dating sites, he just does it in the primary email account he know i have to periodically check. He wants to see it there then confront him or he would set a secret email. its so lame....wont give him the satisfaction.

Its obvious that what he is doing is trying to kill 2 birds one stone. try to get me to engage him which is ridiculous but really is after finding another partner

If he knows someone is here that is likely to take my side- (since its out in the open now )he probably wont come home plus he is not really doing anything when he is at home which is with the drive time factored in is 2 full days every 10 days not really an issue there.

I'm already in bankruptcy so i don't think the conversion to ch7 from ch13 is a big deal but see what you are saying. its is something that i have to assess. until i know where going to live the rent amount varies but i have a range in mind and will have to downsize significantly which is actually a relief for my change in lifestyle i look forward to

This whole thing has been a continuous risk assessment on the financial side which is how i am able to reduce the emotional component of my actions by not caving on that piece


----------



## arandomlady

Openminded said:


> Do those advising you to stay have any idea what R is like when you don't have a really remorseful "all in" spouse? R is tough even when your spouse is doing everything possible to make it work. Trust once broken is very difficult to get back under any circumstances.


-------------------------

no because no one has reconciled all are divorced so even more reason i am here...


----------



## Catherine602

Oh, my apologies for posting my perspective. I thought you started the thread for that purpose. My motive was to help. It never occurred to me that I was competing with the excellent members who have already posted.


----------



## arandomlady

Catherine602 said:


> Oh, my apologies for posting my perspective. I thought you started the thread for that purpose. My motive was to help. It never occurred to me that I was competing with the excellent members who have already posted.


----------------------
I appreciate your perspective I did not mean to imply that. I just want my story to be clear because the sexual component to it is huge. No what trying to say because i have tendency to not be as concise as others his post tend to cut to the chase with what I trying to say better than i am articulating it because i am all over the map...

it was not my intention to insult or discount your imput in any way. please forgive me


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Managing a home is a lot of work
> 
> a. lawn care
> b. vacuuming
> c. grocery shopping
> d. laundry
> e. washing dishes
> f. repairs - calling repairmen or do-it-yourself
> g. pay bills/manage finances
> 
> I am sure there's more I didn't account for above.
> 
> If you do that, then HE doesn't' have to do it.
> 
> You save him the hassle of doing all that if you leave.
> 
> I imagine your home is TIDY. Does HE clean it or YOU? I BET my arse YOU CLEAN his home FOR HIM.
> 
> I would let someone live in my home for free too if they did a - g!!!
> 
> He doesn't need sex, he can find that on the internet.
> 
> But he CAN TRUST YOU to manage his HOME.. and you do it for nothing other than the roof over your head.
> 
> AND YOU PAY for his WATER and POWER.
> 
> Would you not want a deal like that when you buy your home in October?
> 
> A trustworthy person who will manage your home for FREE, simply for the cost of putting a roof over their head. AND they pay POWER and WATER?
> 
> Good deal I say.
> 
> He has a bachelor pad out of state, and you manage the household for him so he doesn't have to do it.
> 
> He just checks in once a month to freeload and make sure you are doing your job by the sounds of it.
> 
> Come home for nothing?
> 
> That's bull. He gets a LOT of of coming to your place once a month.
> 
> He gets reassurance that you are towing the line.


------------------------------


Ok this IS how I see things which is why I didn't put much stock in him coming home. zi know its for spying on me and what I'm doing but also to yes make he think is still invested i agree though not committed which i sure we can agree are not the same thing.

i have taking his things out of home but he always manages to leave his articles around like indicators that a man is still here... and i remove those so when he come back home he is always wanting to know what company i have had...

Would i ever have a man over here... no but he needs to feel like anything is possible


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> -------------------------------------
> House manager, why didn't i think of that... lol no that's it in a nutshell, he has a doer for wife so its very fitting.


Managing a home is a lot of work

a. lawn care
b. vacuuming
c. grocery shopping
d. laundry
e. washing dishes
f. repairs - calling repairmen or do-it-yourself
g. pay bills/manage finances

I am sure there's more I didn't account for above.

If you do that, then HE doesnt' have to do it.

You save him the hassle of doing all that if you leave.

I imagine your home is TIDY. Does HE clean it or YOU?

I would let someone live in my home for free too if they did a - g!!!

He doesn't need sex, he can find that on the internet.

But he CAN TRUST YOU to manage his HOME.. and you do it for nothing other than the roof over your head.

AND YOU PAY for his WATER and POWER.

Would you not want a deal like that when you buy your home in October?

A trustworthy person who will manage your home for FREE, simply for the cost of putting a roof over their head. AND they pay POWER and WATER?

That's BETTER than a live in house keeper. Housekeepers want to get PAID. YOU are paying HIS UTILITIES.

Good deal for him I say. That alone would want him to keep you around.


----------



## Openminded

arandomlady said:


> -------------------------
> 
> no because no one has reconciled all are divorced so even more reason i am here...


They've all divorced due to affairs and yet some are advising you to stay? Or the ones advising you to stay haven't dealt with an affair?

I've been through divorce and I've been through reconciliation (both with the same husband) and my experience was divorce was a piece of cake compared with trying to reconcile with someone who was not truly remorseful.


----------



## arandomlady

Openminded said:


> They've all divorced due to affairs and yet some are advising you to stay? Or the ones advising you to stay haven't dealt with an affair?
> 
> I've been through divorce and I've been through reconciliation (both with the same husband) and my experience was divorce was a piece of cake compared with trying to reconcile with someone who was not truly remorseful.


-----------------------------

No they are all divorced from affairs from what I'm gathering the man left for someone else and situation was more obvious than in my case so some are like oh thank heavens he comes home pays bills etc etc... not seing ow. but i can see that he is actually on dating sites though he comes here for face time--

let me be clear- i'm not impressed by him coming home that's never been enough for me to think he is remorseful so still in 180
because i know he doing it is spying on me plus he knows if he doesn't i will know for sure he is with someone else and leave entirely. that will be my que he has no plans to work things out. 

he is straddling fence wants to keep me here. he knows that when i leave he wont ever know where i am again. honestly i want him to feel the pain of that because he takes me for granted and as hurt as i am i think i can live with never seeing him again though i will be hurt by it

ultimately I have to do what I believe not what anyone else thinks is right thing, i know that but just bouncing scenario around


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Managing a home is a lot of work
> 
> a. lawn care
> b. vacuuming
> c. grocery shopping
> d. laundry
> e. washing dishes
> f. repairs - calling repairmen or do-it-yourself
> g. pay bills/manage finances
> 
> I am sure there's more I didn't account for above.
> 
> If you do that, then HE doesnt' have to do it.
> 
> You save him the hassle of doing all that if you leave.
> 
> I imagine your home is TIDY. Does HE clean it or YOU?
> 
> I would let someone live in my home for free too if they did a - g!!!
> 
> He doesn't need sex, he can find that on the internet.
> 
> But he CAN TRUST YOU to manage his HOME.. and you do it for nothing other than the roof over your head.
> 
> AND YOU PAY for his WATER and POWER.
> 
> Would you not want a deal like that when you buy your home in October?
> 
> A trustworthy person who will manage your home for FREE, simply for the cost of putting a roof over their head. AND they pay POWER and WATER?
> 
> That's BETTER than a live in house keeper. Housekeepers want to get PAID. YOU are paying HIS UTILITIES.
> 
> Good deal for him I say. That alone would want him to keep you around.


-------------

thanks this is a better picture than the dutifiul husband coming home to is wife because he loves her that my friends try to point out to me

yes this is more on the lines of my belief of the situation with the spy element. especially when i look at it from the perspective of a soon to be exwife


----------



## Catherine602

arandomlady said:


> ----------------------
> I appreciate your perspective I did not mean to imply that. I just want my story to be clear because the sexual component to it is huge. No what trying to say because i have tendency to not be as concise as others his post tend to cut to the chase with what I trying to say better than i am articulating it because i am all over the map...
> 
> it was not my intention to insult or discount your imput in any way. please forgive me


Don't worry you have enough on your mind. In fact you you have been quite clear to present a very complex situation.


----------



## vi_bride04

Openminded said:


> I've been through divorce and I've been through reconciliation (both with the same husband) and *my experience was divorce was a piece of cake compared with trying to reconcile with someone who was not truly remorseful.*


:iagree: 

Same here. Trying to R with no remorse is hell on earth. I tried for 5 yrs.


----------



## Openminded

vi_bride04 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Same here. Trying to R with no remorse is hell on earth. I tried for 5 yrs.


Thirty years of R for me, since I had a young son to consider, and I regret those wasted years every single day.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> -------------
> 
> thanks this is a better picture than the dutifiul husband coming home to is wife because he loves her that my friends try to point out to me
> 
> yes this is more on the lines of my belief of the situation with the spy element. especially when i look at it from the perspective of a soon to be exwife


Who is giving you this "dutiful husband" business? Are these females? They want to think the best of him still. Bad move at this point.

If you ask a GUY what your husband is doing, it's going to be more along what I typed I would bet.

Did I miss any household management that you do?

I can't imagine I caught everything in one pass... I am just curious to see how much work and commitment this guy is passing up.

What else do you do to maintain the home? There must be more that I didn't think of...


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Who is giving you this "dutiful husband" business? Are these females? They want to think the best of him still. Bad move at this point.
> 
> If you ask a GUY what your husband is doing, it's going to be more along what I typed I would bet.
> 
> Did I miss any household management that you do?
> 
> I can't imagine I caught everything in one pass... I am just curious to see how much work and commitment this guy is passing up.
> 
> What else do you do to maintain the home? There must be more that I didn't think of...


--------------------

Yes, i guess they had it worse where the guy didn't come home and that part sticks out to them. H know what he can and cant get away with. he will humor me as you say by coming home and giving the appearance he still wants to be married which he brings up all the time like that is the holy grail of remorse...again not impressed but friends say i'm not giving credit as he could live it up where he is with the o/w in the work locale,


In all honesty not really much upkeep here. our yard is maintained by hoa, i pay the utilities, trash, alarm i was paying the mortgage and trustee but he took over that because didn't want me to have access to his money anymore. 

the housework isn't much its just me in about 2000 sqft 3 level and I'm usually in one level except the kitchen don't really cook.

WHen he comes home, he washes his clothes here and eats out as i don't cook anymore for him that is part of the withholding though he probably thinks i just don't want dirty the kitchen


----------



## vi_bride04

Ahhh so he comes home for convenience for him (washing clothes). Is there some reason he can't do that with OW? Almost seems like he can't stick around there during certain times so maybe he really has no choice but to come to your place.


----------



## Allen_A

vi_bride04 said:


> Ahhh so he comes home for convenience for him (washing clothes). Is there some reason he can't do that with OW? Almost seems like he can't stick around there during certain times so maybe he really has no choice but to come to your place.


BINGO!!!

He's just using the main house as his freeload pad.

His other place out of state is his bachelor pad, his main house is his maintenance pad.

He's not being a dutiful husband, he's just using the home and enjoying your free house-sitting/house-keeping services.

Last question, does the water and power have to be paid for? Is there a disconnect fee?

My thinking is he's further exploiting you for paying for utilities that HAVE to be purchased each month.

At least in my area you can't disconnect water and power without a fee to disconnect, and another to reconnect.

So ya, you pay for utilities and in exchange you stay there rent free.

That WOULD be a deal if you were a TENANT. You are his freaking WIFE and HALF OWNER of the freaking HOME.

I would be using HIS money to pay for water and power.

But, you have been paying for it now, so he will likely throw a tantrum if you use his funds to pay for it.

This is an interesting behavioral trait I have seen a lot.

Men in particular seem to like having TWO HOMES to traffic between, rather than just ONE they HAVE to return to. Not unlike spouses.

I did this too ... when i was SIXTEEN!!! lol I grew up!

So, the main house is his marriage house, and the place he has out of state is his affair place.

He likes to have both for his convenience. He does not want to be FORCED to CHOOSE just ONE.

So ya.. I can't imagine he will shut down the deal he has going with you right now... it's looking pretty good for him.


----------



## arandomlady

vi_bride04 said:


> Ahhh so he comes home for convenience for him (washing clothes). Is there some reason he can't do that with OW? Almost seems like he can't stick around there during certain times so maybe he really has no choice but to come to your place.


It is his home too so he is also asserting that fact by coming here on his days off. he is paying the mortgage and trustee which comprises of 75% of the household expenses. He has recently stated doesn't want to lose the home, I'm willing to let it go . I don't have a problem paying utilities, if i leave now i would have to add rent to that. I'm living here 100% of the time. he is here like 15% or less. 

the o/w that came to our home lives here and supposedly he isn't with her anymore. NO i think he has someone where is he now. the washing clothes here is just a perk of coming here to spy on me. he could not come home and save an 8 hr drive 1 way...


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> BINGO!!!
> 
> He's just using the main house as his freeload pad.
> 
> His other place out of state is his bachelor pad, his main house is his maintenance pad.
> 
> He's not being a dutiful husband, he's just using the home and enjoying your free house-sitting/house-keeping services.
> 
> Last question, does the water and power have to be paid for? Is there a disconnect fee?
> 
> My thinking is he's further exploiting you for paying for utilities that HAVE to be purchased each month.
> 
> At least in my area you can't disconnect water and power without a fee to disconnect, and another to reconnect.
> 
> So ya, you pay for utilities and in exchange you stay there rent free.
> 
> That WOULD be a deal if you were a TENANT. You are his freaking WIFE and HALF OWNER of the freaking HOME.
> 
> I would be using HIS money to pay for water and power.
> 
> But, you have been paying for it now, so he will likely throw a tantrum if you use his funds to pay for it.
> 
> This is an interesting behavioral trait I have seen a lot.
> 
> Men in particular seem to like having TWO HOMES to traffic between, rather than just ONE they HAVE to return to. Not unlike spouses.
> 
> I did this too ... when i was SIXTEEN!!! lol I grew up!
> 
> So, the main house is his marriage house, and the place he has out of state is his affair place.
> 
> He likes to have both for his convenience. He does not want to be FORCED to CHOOSE just ONE.
> 
> So ya.. I can't imagine he will shut down the deal he has going with you right now... it's looking pretty good for him.


----------------

With the job that he has out of state I am told by others they work the guys to death during their rotation and the rental he has there is very basic. he doesn't even have cable apparently. not to say he isn't taking chicks there but from the looks of it he is slumming it there.

The division of expenses is more of my doing than his. we used to share an account and pay everything from it all together. there was no i payng this and you payng that sort of thing. 

when i suspected the affair i began depositing money into my own account i have he cant access. after a while because i was taking liberties with his joint account he was still having his check go into he just moved to a different account.

i do not expect him to pay 100% of the household while I'm living here so the deal now is he pays the mortgage and trustee i pay the utilities. its a no brainer for me because they are much lower combined then paying the mortgage 

plus since the plan is for me to leave. i am not putting mony into an asset or bankruptcy that i will ultimately leave in the divorce. yes could i help pay the trustee, i could but if down the line he stops i would have wasted money

under no circumstances will i put another dime into the house or bankruptcy. yes i have no problems paying the power water etc because i am using it and was paying it anyway before

With this arrangement, i am keeping much more. is he is getting a deal, sure because utilities are paid. at same time I'm not paying rent or trustee. Now when i leave anything in my name i will obviously shut off it will then be is problem


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> It is his home too so he is also asserting that fact by coming here on his days off. he is paying the mortgage and trustee which comprises of 75% of the household expenses. He has recently stated doesn't want to lose the home, I'm willing to let it go . I don't have a problem paying utilities, if i leave now i would have to add rent to that. I'm living here 100% of the time. he is here like 15% or less.
> 
> the o/w that came to our home lives here and supposedly he isn't with her anymore. NO i think he has someone where is he now. the washing clothes here is just a perk of coming here to spy on me. he could not come home and save an 8 hr drive 1 way...


I wonder what he would do if you went to his bachelor pad and started hanging out there. lol

Heck, if he can show up and leave in the main home you live in, you ought to be free to do the same with the bachelor pad.

My guess is he would throw a fit.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> With this arrangement, i am keeping much more. is he is getting a deal, sure because utilities are paid. at same time I'm not paying rent or trustee. Now when i leave anything in my name i will obviously shut off it will then be is problem


Exactly, so why would he cancel that?

Some OW may eventually pressure him to ask you to leave, but he could just break and run from her at that point, and call her a control freak.

He seems to like burning the candle at both ends... so, you may as well save your $$$.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> I wonder what he would do if you went to his bachelor pad and started hanging out there. lol
> 
> Heck, if he can show up and leave in the main home you live in, you ought to be free to do the same with the bachelor pad.
> 
> My guess is he would throw a fit.


---------------
he has asked if I would come up there and stay a bit since I can work from home. I have not been there given the current status of things. I have gone to where he is unannounced when he had the hotel for several weeks while in trainng. If I was so inclined, I could do it again. I know where he lives there. that's one of the reasons he wanted to split the value of the car he was driving because I held title and other key thought I might take it ans sell out from under him...


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> ---------------
> he has asked if I would come up there and stay a bit since I can work from home. I have not been there given the current status of things. I have gone to where he is unannounced when he had the hotel for several weeks while in trainng. If I was so inclined, I could do it again. I know where he lives there. that's one of the reasons he wanted to split the value of the car he was driving because I held title and other key thought I might take it ans sell out from under him...


How long ago was this, would he still feel that way?

I am not suggesting you do it, I am just trying to get a sense of where his head is at.

I am trying to figure out how long in months roughly that he is likely to continue with the status quo.

If you think he WOULD be responsive to you visiting HIM each month instead, you may want to TRY that out.. IF he has a second bedroom.

You may prefer visiting THERE rather than him visiting your home. That way your home is left free from his violation, AND you can leave his place whenever you like. Rather than you having to wait for HIM to LEAVE.

So, something to think about.. again it may throw him off guard, which is what you want.. is to keep him confused.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> How long ago was this, would he still feel that way?
> 
> I am not suggesting you do it, I am just trying to get a sense of where his head is at.
> 
> I am trying to figure out how long in months roughly that he is likely to continue with the status quo.


----------------------------

that's what's strange, he says it every time he comes home. He just asked me again as he was leaving...He knows that I could work from there because I came up there to surprise him a week earlier before my vacation actually started just before I began suspecting something was amiss...

You see the confusion? to me, why would he keep the house here if we are on the outs. his life is there now nothing is here but me and my job

if it were me, I would stop paying the mortgage let the house go and up grade my life in the new locale...he could still do that which is why I have to be vigilant


----------



## arandomlady

If you think he WOULD be responsive to you visiting HIM each month instead, you may want to TRY that out.. IF he has a second bedroom.

You may prefer visiting THERE rather than him visiting your home. That way your home is left free from his violation, AND you can leave his place whenever you like. Rather than you having to wait for HIM to LEAVE.

So, something to think about.. again it may throw him off guard, which is what you want.. is to keep him confused.[/QUOTE]


---------------


He has made the suggestion of me coming there many times. before all this transpired the plan was I would sometimes come THERE on his day off to spend time together and we could travel to places closer to him then I would fly back home. 

The place he is in is a small town and the rental is shabby 1 bed room house not the greatest area...still I was willing to go there and visit. Now, I don't really want to see him but he comes homes time and time again...

It would be very uncomfortable for me go now and be is such a small space with him. remember, we are now rarely in the same room together in the marital home which I suspect is several times larger than his rental.

I have not ruled it out since I do have to give the appearance I don't have one foot out of the door...


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> You see the confusion?


He could be bluffing. You said he played poker right?

He may just be trying to throw YOU off, by offering you to visit somewhere he realizes full well you have zero interest in going.

He looks trustworthy (at least he thinks he does), and it costs him nothing to make the offer since you won't accept.

I am sure others here might have suggestions.

I am thinking that IF he wants to corner you, it's easier there than a multi level home. He can then pressure you for sex, affection, conversation, etc.. you can't HIDE from him there, as you pointed out.

And he knows that.

He may think the two of you in a smaller box may get closer and cozier.

That's all I got right now. I am sure others may have some ideas.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> He could be bluffing. You said he played poker right?
> 
> He may just be trying to throw YOU off, by offering you to visit somewhere he realizes full well you have zero interest in going.
> 
> He looks trustworthy (at least he thinks he does), and it costs him nothing to make the offer since you won't accept.
> 
> I am sure others here might have suggestions.
> 
> I am thinking that IF he wants to corner you, it's easier there than a multi level home. He can then pressure you for sex, affection, conversation, etc.. you can't HIDE from him there, as you pointed out.
> 
> And he knows that.
> 
> He may think the two of you in a smaller box may get closer and cozier.
> 
> That's all I got right now. I am sure others may have some ideas.


--------------------
He is a recreational poker player but something I have noticed when he is playing is that he doesn't bluff nearly enough. He will tell me the play by play after the game or I would watch him play online and I would be yelling why didn't you just bluff your way others did, you are going to be outplayed ... he plays sure bets about 80% of time.

When I would watch is online play I'm like if you don't call or all in more, people are going to know not to challenge you when you do because are telling them basically its a sure thing..Since I don't play poker, he says I don't know what I'm taking about. 

I explained to him it doesn't take a professional to know that bluffing is a big part of how the game is played, if people only played sure bets all the time how are they ever going to get the big pots...

So is this allegory for how our life and marriage play out. In a lot of ways I think he underestimates me which I use to my advantage

One thing about is me, I don't think I am very easy to read because in a lot of things I can be savvy but naïve on others and I have tendency to play an expert even when I don't always know because I will know just enough.

About going there, he knows that I could be capable of anything but I also have a pattern but this can be topsy turvy depending on what I'm after on any given day. I don't think he thinks I wont come there, just the opposite.

Realistically, I COULD go up there anytime because I could just work from there. He has been trying to get me to come to his rental on his timeframe. See he wants to control WHEN I come there because I know his schedule when he comes HERE.

H thinks I am just being nice and romantic with trying to surprise him like I have before. I don't think he wants that kind of surprise now given where we are. No, I will go up there but he wont know when I am coming, especially now.

I can be a daughter of bastard ( instead of son of *****, get it lol) when I want to be.


----------



## Allen_A

Do you have keys to his bachelor pad?

As far as poker ya, you HAVE to bluff sometimes, particularly in the end game.

Statistically if you just play hands when you have great cards you will gradually lose all your money to the blinds. You have to play a certain number of hands or you will lose. And as you pointed out tight players don't make much money since everyone always folds when a tight player calls or raises.

So, basically this guy is gutless when he is vulnerable. Yes, you can use that for sure.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Do you have keys to his bachelor pad?
> 
> As far as poker ya, you HAVE to bluff sometimes, particularly in the end game.
> 
> Statistically if you just play hands when you have great cards you will gradually lose all your money to the blinds. You have to play a certain number of hands or you will lose. And as you pointed out tight players don't make much money since everyone always folds when a tight player calls or raises.
> 
> So, basically this guy is gutless when he is vulnerable. Yes, you can use that for sure.



I don't have keys. As a part of the agreement I will send him I will request them. If he balks at the idea, then we know whats up. Again he already knows I really could just show up whenever so he would really have to think about giving me a key


----------



## arandomlady

So just for fun, I asked him why hasn't he offered me a key to the rental. He says he didn't think I wanted it...ok mail it I said. So I will wait alittle bit then decide when to do the surprise visit.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> So just for fun, I asked him why hasn't he offered me a key to the rental. He says he didn't think I wanted it...ok mail it I said. So I will wait alittle bit then decide when to do the surprise visit.


You are renting it as much as he is until you are divorced... So why on earth woudl'nt you want a key to your rental? lol

That would at least even the playing field.

He can show up and intrude into your home, but you can't show up and intrude into his?

Screw that.

You don't even need to surprise him... just getting a key is evening the arrangement. But ya, it may send him the impression you are working on things with him AND that you could drop by at any minute.

You could even drop by when he's not there and find something he doesn't want you to see... so, getting a key should put him on edge.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> You are renting it as much as he is until you are divorced... So why on earth woudl'nt you want a key to your rental? lol
> 
> That would at least even the playing field.
> 
> He can show up and intrude into your home, but you can't show up and intrude into his?
> 
> Screw that.
> 
> You don't even need to surprise him... just getting a key is evening the arrangement. But ya, it may send him the impression you are working on things with him AND that you could drop by at any minute.
> 
> You could even drop by when he's not there and find something he doesn't want you to see... so, getting a key should put him on edge.



I didn't think of it also being my rental as it is shabby and in the middle of no where but you are right. lol he seems to be giddy with the prospect that I might come and stay a bit...


----------



## arandomlady

Urgent--Why I cant sleep***

A new listing just posted on my employer's website today that I could possibly go after in 2nd choice area and I am so anxious because I am supposed to give h the letter/ conditions since he wanted to know how to save the marriage (supposedly). 

I know my plan was to wait it out save money but I want to know his answer now, which I expect will be he wont do those things and that will confirm i tried and can get outta dodge without further delay. 

I guess i want closure from him. I will file d sooner for sure if i know for a fact he wont do the things i just asked for and will go ahead and apply as it may be lengthy process to do the transfer. With what i told him while he is here, if he thinks i wont leave him, he has to be really in denial.

I think my mind is made up and I'm going crazy with the prospect I'm *****footing around... i don't know if the money is worth it to me anymore to hold out if he doesn't care enough to try and fix this. 

He has no idea of this, it would be a move clear across the country and if I get it and make the move I would not be willing to see him again after this final rejection. 

i am not going to tell him that. i want him to answer me without that info. if he really refuses to do it. i don't think i could stand being here anymore.


----------



## arandomlady

so I revised the letter to h-

You know what has transpired the over the last few months and the toll it has taken on our marriage so I will not reiterate. The last time you were home, you seemed to be sincere in asking me what could be done to save our marriage. I have been very patient throughout this process and have not made any rash decisions in order to give a full opportunity for reconciliation. I have thought about the situation very carefully and while I cannot guarantee what the outcome will be, I can certainly assure you that if you refuse to meet the following conditions, I will have no choice but to assume you are not willing to repair the marriage and began divorce proceedings. I am trying to move us towards healing. If you will not do these things, I need to heal on my own.


----------



## vi_bride04

Do not lose this job opportunity waiting for him to make a decision. He can always follow you to the new location if he is really wanting to save the marriage.

Just know that cake eaters NEVER give up their cake. It has been almost 4 months since separation. That is plenty of time for him to do SOMETHING about R. 

He has no remorse. That's why its pointless waiting for him to fix things. 

People who are serious about saving the marriage will move heaven and earth to do just that. Have you read any stories of truely remorseful waywards?


----------



## vi_bride04

arandomlady said:


> so I revised the letter to h-
> 
> You know what has transpired the over the last few months and the toll it has taken on our marriage so I will not reiterate. The last time you were home, you seemed to be sincere in asking me what could be done to save our marriage, so here they are:
> 
> 1. Absolutely no contact with OW
> 2. You get into IC
> 3. Open tranparency on all accounts - email, cell phone, dating sites, etc
> 4. xxxxxxxx
> 5. xxxxxxxx
> 6. xxxxxxxxx
> 
> I have been very patient throughout this process and have not made any rash decisions. I have thought about the situation very carefully and while I cannot guarantee what the outcome will be, I can certainly assure you that if you refuse to meet the following conditions, I will have no choice but to assume you are not willing to repair the marriage and began divorce proceedings.


I fixed it for you - leave as much emotion out of it as possible


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> so I revised the letter to h-
> 
> You know what has transpired the over the last few months and the toll it has taken on our marriage so I will not reiterate. The last time you were home, you seemed to be sincere in asking me what could be done to save our marriage. I have been very patient throughout this process and have not made any rash decisions in order to give a full opportunity for reconciliation. I have thought about the situation very carefully and while I cannot guarantee what the outcome will be, I can certainly assure you that if you refuse to meet the following conditions, I will have no choice but to assume you are not willing to repair the marriage and began divorce proceedings. I am trying to move us towards healing. If you will not do these things, I need to heal on my own.


Why inform him at all?

Why all the letter writing?

If you choose to exit early, you exit early, do NOT give him a any WARNING or ANY REASON to SUSPECT you may be planning an EXIT.

When you are planning an EXIT you ACT AS IF. The LAST thing you want to do is write him ultimatums to get him fired up.

Keep your cards to yourself, close to the vest. THAT was the plan here was it not? So why give him ultimatums simply because there's a job opening?


If you have a job opportunity you don't want to pass up, then put an exit plan together to get there.

You do NOT NEED to INFORM HIM or WARN HIM what YOU are DOING with YOUR LIFE.

Put your exit plan together in SECRET and you EXECUTE the plan. Ideally during the three weeks he's NOT THERE.

Does he inform you about his online dating sites? Does he give you ultimatum letters before he hits the internet for sex?

No. He just DOES it.

You do the same.

I say don't share ANY information with him.

Get the book _Not Just Friends_ and ask him to start read it.

That's it. No letter. If you give him a letter you just give him something to get passive aggressive about.

Give him the book to keep him busy and you get busy SECRETLY planning an EXIT.

Do abused wives INFORM their violent husbands when they are leaving?

NO. Any social worker would WARN the wife to NOT SHARE ANY INFO.

My dear you need to stop trying to COOPERATE, NEGOTIATE, and COORDINATE with a REMORSELESS LIAR.

If you want to leave, you do it. You do NOT need to INFORM him before you go.

He's not your daddy, he's not your employer, and he's not your husband.

You have an ideal opportunity to exit during the three week window where he's out of state. USE THAT.

I really dont' understand the point of giving him a WARNING or an ULTIMATUM. That's all this letter amounts to.

You are just pushing his buttons when you LEAST want to TRIGGER his ERRATIC behavior.

Just give him the book _Not Just Friends_ and leave it at that for now while you plan an exit.

If he REALLY wants to know how to fix a marriage, that book does have all those details in there in the second half of the book.

You ought to be LONG GONE before he gets that far. IF he reads it at ALL.


----------



## arandomlady

vi_bride04 said:


> Do not lose this job opportunity waiting for him to make a decision. He can always follow you to the new location if he is really wanting to save the marriage.
> 
> Just know that cake eaters NEVER give up their cake. It has been almost 4 months since separation. That is plenty of time for him to do SOMETHING about R.
> 
> He has no remorse. That's why its pointless waiting for him to fix things.
> 
> People who are serious about saving the marriage will move heaven and earth to do just that. Have you read any stories of truely remorseful waywards?


-----------------------------------------


That's just it. he asked so I want to make sure its clear. This is more for me than it is him. I want to make peace with it and know I gave it my best effort.

I see that i forgot the revised the conditions here but they are clear with dates that are close.

I know that's why no R until now, still not. I haven't read those not even sure of where to find them.


----------



## Allen_A

> I guess i want closure from him


You can write him a letter AFTER you have a job, a home, and are GONE from that place.

He is NOT going to give you any closure if he finds out you are exiting or even SUSPECTS it. He is going to act like a tazmanian devil and ruin your exit efforts most likely.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Why inform him at all?
> 
> Why all the letter writing?
> 
> If you choose to exit early, you exit early, do NOT give him a any WARNING.
> 
> Keep your cards to yourself, close to the vest.
> 
> The only point of a letter at all would be to
> 
> a. confuse him
> b. get him to lower defenses
> c. prompt him for info
> 
> If you have a job opportunity you don't want to pass up, then put an exit plan together to get there.
> 
> You do NOT NEED to INFORM HIM what YOU are DOING with YOUR LIFE.
> 
> Does he inform you about his online dating sites?
> 
> No. He just DOES it.
> 
> You do the same.
> 
> I say don't share ANY information with him.
> 
> Get the book _Not Just Friends_ and ask him to start read it.
> 
> That's it. No letter. If you give him a letter you just give him something to get passive aggressive about.
> 
> Give him the book to keep him busy and you get busy SECRETLY planning an EXIT.
> 
> Do abused wives INFORM their violent husbands when they are leaving?
> 
> NO. Any social worker would WARN the wife to NOT SHARE ANY INFO.
> 
> My dear you need to stop trying to COOPERATE, NEGOTIATE, and COORDINATE with a REMORSELESS LIAR.
> 
> If you want to leave, you do it. You do NOT need to INFORM him before you go. He's not your daddy, he's not your employer, and he's not your husband.
> 
> You have an ideal opportunity to exit during the three week window where he's out of state. USE THAT.
> 
> I really dont' understand the point of giving him a WARNING or an ULTIMATUM.


-----------------------------

I understand the frustration with this. Its almost 12 years married with the cheating being very very recent and out of character. its not so easy for me to just completely close the door when I am looking at this like a fluke.

Its me answering his question of what to do. Its not a negotiation, if he refuses its done. I want to be able to live with my choice knowing i was clear with what was needed. His refusal will be clear, His acceptance is a start.

If I could just leave now assuming i get the job and have no worries about the decision without doing all this, i would. The problem is I cant. I want to do this last thing for myself to know that I'm not just running away.

I want to go with clear conscience without looking back. there wont be a him coming after me to a new locale because once i go i wont entertain it. I don't want to mull over and wonder did i really do everything to give the marriage a try when he "appears" to want to this point

This is for me. remember I said that I would want to reconcile if he moves heaven and earth. I wont if he doesn't. I have not said when I would leave if he doesn't agree plus there nothing he could do to get me out sooner than I want to leave per atty assuming I'm not trying to stay indefinitely.


----------



## Allen_A

He is NOT going to cooperate. He is CHEATING on you NOW. You already FOUND OUT.

You TIPPING HIM OFF that you are LEAVING is NOT doing YOU any favors. YOU are just JEOPARDIZING your chance of a SAFE EXIT.



> This is for me. remember I said that I would want to reconcile if he moves heaven and earth. I wont if he doesn't. I have not said when I would leave if he doesn't agree plus there nothing he could do to get me out sooner than I want to leave per atty assuming I'm not trying to stay indefinitely.


Yes he can get WORSE. You are assuming it can't.

It CAN.

He has had a LONG TIME to move heaven and earth. He's NOT DOING IT.

It's just my opinion I know, but why can't you just get OUT Of there UNTIL He's moved heaven and earth?

Take the job, move out there, and if he changes in a year or so then maybe hear him out.

He's on internet DATING SITES as we TYPE this.

This is not the time to be negotiating reconciliation. This is the time to get OUT.

You don't need to tell hm when you are leaving for him to know something is up. I got that myself from reading the shortened letter. You are giving away your plans and you do'nt even realize it.

You send that letter and you will just TIP him OFF that something is UP.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> He is NOT going to cooperate. He is CHEATING on you NOW. You already FOUND OUT.
> 
> You TIPPING HIM OFF that you are LEAVING is NOT doing YOU any favors. YOU are just JEOPARDIZING your chance of a SAFE EXIT.


--------------------
We have both been saying what we will and will not do and not following through for the longest, I am not really concerned about that plus I have ways and means and I know what I'm dealing with.


I am making the inquiry and lining things up. If its meant for me to go, It will happen, nothing can stop it


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> --------------------
> We have both been saying what we will and will not do and not following through for the longest, I am not really concerned about that plus I have ways and means and I know what I'm dealing with.
> 
> 
> I am making the inquiry and lining things up. If its meant for me to go, It will happen, nothing can stop it


OK, not unlike you warning your husband, all we can do is warn you to the best of our ability.

But for the record I don't think giving him an ultimatum when you are planning an exit is a good idea.

Best of luck.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> OK, not unlike you warning your husband, all we can do is warn you to the best of our ability.
> 
> But for the record I don't think giving him an ultimatum when you are planning an exit is a good idea.
> 
> Best of luck.


-----------------------

I appreciate that. The attempt is reconciliatory since he asked. I understand the position. I am flailing around I guess


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> -----------------------
> 
> I appreciate that. The attempt is reconciliatory since he asked. I understand the position. I am flailing around I guess


Yup, and flailing around results in errors in judgement.

I honestly think its best not to tip him off at all that anything is up.

If he wants to move heaven and earth, he will find you at your new location and do what it takes to win you back.

You cannot hold his hand which is what you are doing.


----------



## vi_bride04

I think you believe his words too much. I don't think you are really looking at his actions. 

Maybe you are. But if he really wanted R you would have seen alot more effort on his part by now. A letter isn't going to change his mind. Allen_A is right - he is still currently cheating on you, he has never stopped. If he wanted R that would have been the first thing to stop.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Yup, and flailing around results in errors in judgement.
> 
> I honestly think its best not to tip him off at all that anything is up.
> 
> If he wants to move heaven and earth, he will find you at your new location and do what it takes to win you back.
> 
> You cannot hold his hand which is what you are doing.


-----------------------------------

Come on! I cant win. I thought I needed to take a harder stance. I don't see how this is hand holding. If he doesn't do it, we know what happens. You guys are acting like I just threw the whole thing by telling what he is asking.

Devils advocate for a sec, I have been 180ing to hilt and not exactly getting anywhere because he feels the situation is hopeless and yes he would be 95% right. 

Now if I provide him with a glimmer of hope who knows what kind of response I will get. Again, just because he said he would do anything. doesn't mean now I take a sigh of relief and stop everything I have going on... 

I think several things are at play here that are not being taking into consideration.


----------



## arandomlady

vi_bride04 said:


> I think you believe his words too much. I don't think you are really looking at his actions.
> 
> Maybe you are. But if he really wanted R you would have seen alot more effort on his part by now. A letter isn't going to change his mind. Allen_A is right - he is still currently cheating on you, he has never stopped. If he wanted R that would have been the first thing to stop.


--------------------
No no no... I am not believing anything. the whole point of telling him what to do is to see what he will actually DO knowing that I am now giving hope to the situation.

The whole time this has been going on I have been at 180 with no r or intent to do so not even close. as far as cheating its stupid setting up the sites in the shared email so I can see him talking to people in other states. so lame. 

its all for attention and ego stroking. ok i'll give him attention by giving him things to do as suggested. but at the same time I would like this thing to be fruitful even if there is 5% chance it could be turned around.

I have not conceded anything, I do not have blind trust about this. I have already said what I need to see on top of the things I talked about recently. 

I am here anyway and would like some movement here. this has been a few months in a 12 year marriage, there needs to be perspective about the time it may take 

I am the first person who doesn't want to waste time in this. I don't feel these months have been wasted by no movement by me as I have improved a great deal and continue to do so.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> -----------------------------------
> 
> Come on! I cant win. I thought I needed to take a harder stance. I don't see how this is hand holding. If he doesn't do it, we know what happens. You guys are acting like I just threw the whole thing by telling what he is asking.
> 
> Devils advocate for a sec, I have been 180ing to hilt and not exactly getting anywhere because he feels the situation is hopeless and yes he would be 95% right.
> 
> Now if I provide him with a glimmer of hope who knows what kind of response I will get. Again, just because he said he would do anything. doesn't mean now I take a sigh of relief and stop everything I have going on...
> 
> I think several things are at play here that are not being taking into consideration.


He's cheating on you NOW with ANOTHER woman. You already confirmed that.

So, his claims to be wiling to do anything are false.

You KNOW what will happen given the fact that he's LYING to you NOW.

Your position was that you were going to leave. Your position was that you are committed to an EXIT when the opportunity is viable.

NOW you are changing YOUR position just at the EXACT time the opportunity comes up?

This is gonna be a bit of a 2 x 4 here, but this just reads like you are choking on your earlier commitment to leave.

To my mind you LEAVING is the ONLY way to POSSIBLY get through to him you are SERIOUS at this point.

He's far too into himself to make any changes until YOU LEAVE HIM. That's my opinion.

Your commitment's have changed, so our advice is going to.

You were committed to leaving because you didn't trust him. Now a job comes up for YOU and suddenly HE looks more TRUSTWORTHY?


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I am the first person who doesn't want to waste time in this. I don't feel these months have been wasted by no movement by me as I have improved a great deal and continue to do so.


OK, so now a job shows up for you and you want to save your marriage rather than EXIT?

Don't you see the coincidence here?

This just looks like you are getting cold feet about your own commitments.

Sorry, but this guy has had n months to change, and his CHANGE is to change to ANOTHER WOMAN.

Come on.

If that's the BEST he can DO, then you need to do something a LOT MORE DRASTIC than a letter to get his attention.

To my mind you EXIT.

THEN see what happens.

In my mind the BEST way to push him to change is for YOU to CHANGE your LOCATION without notifying him.

He thinks he has you in place, which is why he keeps pissing around. So, show him he doesn't.

My GUESS is he will tell you "the marriage is over" to desperately threaten you to return.

Your goals have changed overnight since the job opportunity came up.

That's the problem here from what I can read.


----------



## Allen_A

If you are indeed planning an exit, you need to NOT change ANY of your visible strategies or behavior, otherwise you may tip him off.

I did suggest sharing a copy of _Not Just Friends_ with him, since there's nothing in there that screams "I am outa here" like an ultimatum would. But that's it, no letters with ultimatums in them. Not if you are indeed committed to an exit.

To my mind he's not going to read it with earnest, he will pay lip service to the text while playing around on date sites at the same time which is blatantly contradictory.

I really don't expect that book to wake him up to change. People don't change from a LETTER. They change when BIG THINGS happen that SHOCK THEM into making different choices.

Your husband makes MORE money now, so he's got MORE confidence in himself than EVER, not LESS.

YOU need to EXIT. He needs to SUFFER a LOSS.

And NO, not having sex with you is not him suffering a loss despite what he may think.

YOU LEAVING is a LOSS.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> He's cheating on you NOW with ANOTHER woman. You already confirmed that.
> 
> So, his claims to be wiling to do anything are false.
> 
> You KNOW what will happen given the fact that he's LYING to you NOW.
> 
> Your position was that you were going to leave. Your position was that you are committed to an EXIT when the opportunity is viable.
> 
> NOW you are changing YOUR position just at the EXACT time the opportunity comes up?
> 
> This is gonna be a bit of a 2 x 4 here, but this just reads like you are choking on your earlier commitment to leave.
> 
> To my mind you LEAVING is the ONLY way to POSSIBLY get through to him you are SERIOUS at this point.
> 
> He's far too into himself to make any changes until YOU LEAVE HIM. That's my opinion.
> 
> Your commitment's have changed, so our advice is going to.
> 
> You were committed to leaving because you didn't trust him. Now a job comes up for YOU and suddenly HE looks more TRUSTWORTHY?


----------------------------------

I am waiting to here back as I am several levels above what they are hiring for the position is not an exact match and need to be sure they are not wanting to reduce my current salary. I am not going to take a step down to move across country and have more expenses.


In the meanwhile I need to give my own lipservice that there is hope in the marriage as well. there is no reason I cant do both to see what response I get. i am not losing anything here.

No one said he was trustworthy. answering the question and getting him the book doesn't change anything about before. Its not like I have been given the job and turned it down because I'm waiting on him or something


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> OK, so now a job shows up for you and you want to save your marriage rather than EXIT?
> 
> Don't you see the coincidence here?
> 
> This just looks like you are getting cold feet about your own commitments.
> 
> Sorry, but this guy has had n months to change, and his CHANGE is to change to ANOTHER WOMAN.
> 
> Come on.
> 
> If that's the BEST he can DO, then you need to do something a LOT MORE DRASTIC than a letter to get his attention.
> 
> To my mind you EXIT.
> 
> THEN see what happens.
> 
> In my mind the BEST way to push him to change is for YOU to CHANGE your LOCATION without notifying him.
> 
> He thinks he has you in place, which is why he keeps pissing around. So, show him he doesn't.
> 
> My GUESS is he will tell you "the marriage is over" to desperately threaten you to return.
> 
> Your goals have changed overnight since the job opportunity came up.
> 
> That's the problem here from what I can read.


-------------------------------------

the critical piece is that I don't have the job and have no offer yet but put myself outthere to see if they would be willing to let me come in at current position and salary instead of a trainee. my experience is slightly different from what they are looking for so seeing what they say. I don't want to go into detail here but suffice it to say i have be at least where i am for this to truly be viable move. the fact i haven't gotten an answer yet worries me.

The letter is in response to his request. Had he not come to me, i would not have given instruction. so i gave him instruction and will buy the book, no harm no foul.

I realize he could be saying anything at this point you think i don't know that, I'm married to the guy. there is no risk here in playing it out too.


----------



## Allen_A

When did your husband ask you for a letter?

Some instructions I can understand, but NOT an ultimatum.

Just instructions, and the book HAS instructions in it.

There is a risk if you give him an ultimatum yes, there is a risk that he will STOP believing you and he will stop paying the mortgage and trustee.

You tip him off and that may be his reaction.


----------



## arandomlady

For anyone following this its no go on the other position. I'm not sure if I explained this but I wont leave the company because my 401k account is obviously tied to the job and cant pay the loans back in full which would become due if I terminate employment there. I don't want to forfeit and cash out to cover the loans because of the tax liability. I'm already in a financial mess with the ch 13.

In a prior message here I said he hadn't contacted me which was very Unusual. I thought he wasn't texting me for about a week prior to him coming home this last time. I forgot that I actually blocked his number when he said he didn't want to talk to me again ( I wasn't talking to him much before that either).

Ended up with a flood of all the messages over that time period where he was apologizing and going on on about sundry things in the marriage what happened in the affair etc. I wasn't responding of course so the text became more and more desperate. which when he came here he was wanting to talk..

In reading those messages I was surprised at what he talked about. very detailed and pretty much falls in line with what I had gathered about the situation.

SO He has been texting a lot and gave me the logins to the dating sites saying just wants to fix things no matter how long it takes.

I only said I have been more than patient and very hurt by this and don't know how to feel anymore. he is saying he will do anything and everything knows he is wrong etc etc and would prove he is sincere. I didn't press further.

So I will discuss the conditions (no ultimatum) and book when he comes home next week. I will entertain dinner only after he has read and ready to discuss the book and conditions. 

I don't believe or trust him but I do hope he will demonstrate what he is saying.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> When did your husband ask you for a letter?
> 
> Some instructions I can understand, but NOT an ultimatum.
> 
> Just instructions, and the book HAS instructions in it.
> 
> There is a risk if you give him an ultimatum yes, there is a risk that he will STOP believing you and he will stop paying the mortgage and trustee.
> 
> You tip him off and that may be his reaction.


----------------
You can tell I'm bluffer and will go all in with squat. I know that's the risk but I also know him and how he plays to bring in the poker analogy again. I wanted to say what I wanted AND apply the pressure... I know what you are saying but I want to state my thought process...

Now that I have a lump some of money to add to what I have been saving, I can do that because I can leave the house if need be and still work here in town until I get the locale I want. I wanted to see what he will do because I never really spelled it out like that before. Turns out, I don't have to.


----------



## Allen_A

What's the point in him tap dancing if you don't trust him?

And to be honest I wouldn't trust him either.

Never met him, but he reads as if he has a lot of problems not worth it :

a. untrustworthy behavior and history
b. passive aggressive
c. immature response in crisis
d. threats and bullies in order to get his way
e. works long distance, so transparency is not realistic
f. financial infidelity

To my mind it's just a big song and dance.. what does he do for a living?


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> So I will discuss the conditions (no ultimatum) and book when he comes home next week. I will entertain dinner only after he has read and ready to discuss the book and conditions.


Everything he needs to know to fix this is in the book Not Just Friends. That is a landmark book on this subject.

The table of contents is right here :

Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends" Table of Contents

He really does need to read the WHOLE BOOK, not just cherry pick the parts that specifically talk about repair work.

Any conditions you offer him would be in the book.


----------



## ladybird

My first question is how did the ow know where you live in the first place?


----------



## vi_bride04

ladybird said:


> My first question is how did the ow know where you live in the first place?


Almost like she has been there before. And how to avoid the security gate.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> What's the point in him tap dancing if you don't trust him?
> 
> And to be honest I wouldn't trust him either.
> 
> Never met him, but he reads as if he has a lot of problems not worth it :
> 
> a. untrustworthy behavior and history
> b. passive aggressive
> c. immature response in crisis
> d. threats and bullies in order to get his way
> e. works long distance, so transparency is not realistic
> f. financial infidelity
> 
> To my mind it's just a big song and dance.. what does he do for a living?


__________________________


Because like many other people here going through the same thing, I want to believe the marriage can be redeemed, that no one is perfect and people can overcome things. Believe it or not, he is not all bad, no one is. I have been married along time sure there were issues but the worst of it is really very recent.

For the sake of brevity, he is one dimensionally portrayed here. I think it worth it to me seeing as how I have been married this long and believe in forgiveness if the situation warrants it. I have not reconciled, I just haven't left.

Maybe it is song an dance and I will determine that. Remember I can leave at anytime and are resolved to do just that. I'm in a much better position than at the beginning of this thing both mentally and financially.

I rather not get into what he does as I have disclosed a lot here that might already identify me. suffice it to say he has changed careers very dramatically to a very physical and hazardous job from a very laid back one.


----------



## Allen_A

OK, well this is a turnaround from before.

Before you were committed to an EXIT because you didn't trust him.

Now he's apparently written a bunch of words and he has you reconsidering.

I think he's playing you here, but it's your marriage.

Lord knows how many other women he has on the line that he's spinning the same story to...


----------



## arandomlady

ladybird said:


> My first question is how did the ow know where you live in the first place?


_____________________


Kinda covered this in the very beginning when it took place but While nothing can be ruled out, its not likely because I work from home and am here most of time. when I'm not here, h was with me and he had been in training out of state. she has a home in town is divorced... 

She knows my name and its very very unique so I am not hard to find when goggled the property records come up first...I located her immediately when I searched the phone number so same thing. 

the issue with the gate is that its not guarded anyone can walk through the open one that is for pedestrians because people tend to not lock it. she didn't drive through she walked up.


----------



## Catherine602

Aran I believe you are right to take your time to make a decision. There is a lot going on in your life right now. You can always make the decision to leave. Your husband does not sound like a good long term risk for fidelity. It may take you years to realize that and move on. I hope not. 

Men who need to be pushed by a woman to work successfully towards a goal, have low self-esteem. They often use sex to feel like a man. Your husband sounds like an insecure man who has found an easy way to feel better about himself. I think the man you knew in the past is gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> OK, well this is a turnaround from before.
> 
> Before you were committed to an EXIT because you didn't trust him.
> 
> Now he's apparently written a bunch of words and he has you reconsidering.
> 
> I think he's playing you here, but it's your marriage.
> 
> Lord knows how many other women he has on the line that he's spinning the same story to...


---------------------------

So if I don't exit right now, I lose? I don't think so. This is not lose/lose because I am not in R. In the chance he actually does everything to my satisfaction and there is measurable changes progress and commitment will I leave him anyway? I don't know.

I am getting the impression from you that if I don't leave the marriage, even if I DO see actions of what I need to and its being worked, that I am loser. 

Keep in mind that I haven't caved. If anything there is more being required of him and there is no guarantee of anything because if I am not satisfied, I leave.

Despite what your impressions may be I can assure you I have not drank the kool aid.


----------



## Allen_A

It's not your leaving, its the commitment level.

You WERE committed to getting yourself to safety when the time was right and the finances were stable.

You've read a bunch of text from him and now you are talking about R?

It's just words. What has he DONE?

What has he DONE, on his OWN, without you having to HOLD his HAND?


----------



## arandomlady

Catherine602 said:


> Aran I believe you are right to take your time to make a decision. There is a lot going on in your life right now. You can always make the decision to leave. Your husband does not sound like a good long term risk for fidelity. It may take you years to realize that and move on. I hope not.
> 
> Men who need to be pushed by a woman to work successfully towards a goal, have low self-esteem. They often use sex to feel like a man. Your husband sounds like an insecure man who has found an easy way to feel better about himself. I think the man you knew in the past is gone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


------------------------------

I get that and believe me when I say I'm not willing to wait years...what is very different now is he getting self esteem from the fact he is making more money than me and is the breadwinner. 

That hadn't been the case before. the affair occurred prior to this. there is a lot in our history that I cannot go into but I think with counseling its something that can be addressed. 

I haven't made move for a lot of reason mainly financial. I am not going to state here I'm not willing to give the guy a chance if I see action. A chance means I haven't left. if doesn't mean resume the marriage not the same thing


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> It's not your leaving, its the commitment level.
> 
> You WERE committed to getting yourself to safety when the time was right and the finances were stable.
> 
> You've read a bunch of text from him and now you are talking about R?
> 
> It's just words. What has he DONE?
> 
> What has he DONE, on his OWN, without you having to HOLD his HAND?


what are you talking about, there is no r. the commitment level to leave is the same. I am not following what is giving you this impression. just because I am hopeful for change doesn't mean I believe it already happened and have moved towards r because I have not


----------



## Catherine602

arandomlady said:


> ------------------------------
> 
> I get that and believe me when I say I'm not willing to wait years...what is very different now is he getting self esteem from the fact he is making more money than me and is the breadwinner.
> 
> That hadn't been the case before. the affair occurred prior to this. there is a lot in our history that I cannot go into but I think with counseling its something that can be addressed.
> 
> I haven't made move for a lot of reason mainly financial. I am not going to state here I'm not willing to give the guy a chance if I see action. A chance means I haven't left. if doesn't mean resume the marriage not the same thing


Aran don't make yourself upset by some of the things you are reading. People look at things from their perspective. Take what you can use and let the rest go.

No one knows your situation better than you. A smart, stable, loving person moves with purpose and when it is advantageous to do so. You don't have to justify your choices. There is absolutely no reason to act rashly. 

There is also no reason that you should not try to R with your husband. Of course, no one wants to see you get hurt so we can't help warning you. If you read as many post from people with situations very similar to yours as I have, you would be prompted to call out a warning. But you need to go through the process and see for yourself. 

How well is he doing on the job? Is he happy to be working or is he complaining? How do you know the job is so dangerous? Is that what he tells you? 

I am guessing about this and may be way off.


----------



## arandomlady

Catherine602 said:


> Aran don't make yourself upset by some of the things you are reading. People look at things from their perspective. Take what you can use and let the rest go.
> 
> No one knows your situation better than you. A smart, stable, loving person moves with purpose and when it is advantageous to do so. You don't have to justify your choices. There is absolutely no reason to act rashly.
> 
> There is also no reason that you should not try to R with your husband. Of course, no one wants to see you get hurt so we can't help warning you. If you read as many post from people with situations very similar to yours as I have, you would be prompted to call out a warning. But you need to go through the process and see for yourself.
> 
> How well is he doing on the job? Is he happy to be working or is he complaining? How do you know the job is so dangerous? Is that what he tells you?
> 
> I am guessing about this and may be way off.


------------------

I’m not upset, I guess I want to make sure my position is understood without being overly simplified. The justification is for me, I actually appreciate being challenged on my position because it makes me think carefully about decisions where in the past I just rolled with things and dealt with the fallout. I am learning a lot about myself as there is a lot of self reflection that goes into something like this.

I said before that I am not comfortable with R at this point and I have taken a hard line on that because of the lack of action from h. This why I am at odds with what is being said about me losing resolve to leave if h doesn’t get on the ball on my timeline. I am very close to end of that hence my need to make an ultimatum…

What has to be understood is that the situation isn’t static. However the fact remains that until I see action, I cant resume. To reiterate, if I cant resume because of h’s lack of action in my timeline, It’s done. I’m impatient now as I am chumping at the bit to get outta here, hence the looking for a transfer. But I have to make sure its not to my detriment financially too as it’s a long term decision. 

So if he wants to just tell me he instead of show what he will do, he will see very quickly this will get him no where and noting he has tried to do so far has changed my stance. He is trying something else. I see no harm in entertaining it, it costs me nothing because I’m not buying. 

The job is notoriously dangerous, it the kind of job where its common knowledge it is. He was complaining at first but that was because of the hours and grueling physicality of it that he was not used to . Now he has taking to it and doing what he needs to move up. Plus the money he is making is a real motivating factor. I can tell he is taking pride in overcoming it. 

I hope I’m making sense though all the hurt, emotion, and just plain craziness.


----------



## Allen_A

The only reservation I would have is you giving an ultimatum. To a passive aggressive, that's at THREAT.

And he's NOT going to react well to that.

I am NOT suggesting you don't leave, I am suggesting you hand him a landmark book on what he needs to know to clean up the mess he made, and get your finances in order.

If a job offer comes in before he's done enough to satisfy you, then LEAVE, quietly, and quickly, while he's OUT Of STATE.

No threat, no ultimatum, nothing. Just a quiet exit.

If you threaten him, offer him an ultimatum, or anything like that, you increase the risk of tipping him off that you are making an EXIT.

The risk of you "entertaining" his claims to be willing to do anything is that you may get swayed by them. It's hard to maintain resolve to EXIT while someone shouts "I love you" from the rooftops, no matter how insincere the shouts may be.

To my mind that makes it worse, he's better off saying and doing nothing.

He's wasting his energy thrashing and flailing about. It's just blatant manipulation.

If he's willing to put all that energy into manipulate you, he may as well crack open the book and read instead.

He's better off just working at his dangerous job and not trying, it would be less offensive, to my mind. Window washer or whatever he's doing. He's going to get more credit there than making hollow claims in your direction.

You said he's done some family therapy of his own accord a long time ago. So he DOES have enough wherewithal to DO the RESEARCH on his own.

Hand him _Not Just Friends_, and that's as far as I would go with that investment. You have wasted more than enough energy on him while he's just perpetuating one deception or threat after another.

There isn't just the issue of his cheating here

a. he lies
b. he cheats
c. he defends his behavior (rather than owns his behavior)
d. he invites OW into the marital home to bully you
e. he visits date websites
f. he threatens financial abandonment
g. he keeps secret internet accounts

I realize that you have had a history together, and in the PAST he's been great at times, but people DO CHANGE.

Many spouses will turn 40, or 45, or their parents pass away suddenly and then your spouse becomes a different person.

The other one never comes back. It's just how people change over time.

Some people change for the better, others not so much.

OW influences him too..he spends countless hours in her company, she IS going to rub off on him.

OW is a terribly bad influence and HE ALLOWS her to influence him to his detriment.

I wouldn't suggest he can't change for the better again.

But not under your present circumstances.

Particularly with him being out of state for 3 weeks of every four you have no way to get any transparency from him.

Long distance relationships do NOT WORK long term.

Particularly due to the risk of infidelity, and the lack of intimacy that happens when people are apart.

To my mind the both of you would have to be in the SAME CITY for this to work at this point.

Along with all the other repair work necessary, you two would not be able to keep this long distance thing going and have a sucessful R.

To my mind you MOVING is the ONLY WAY LEFT to pressure him to make a BIG CHANGE in his life to earn your trust back.

And entertaining his words right now runs the risk of confusing that, NOT UNLIKE a married man listening to an OW talk to him on the phone.. These are just words, but they CAN IMPACT. Countless affairs all over the country is evidence of that. You ARE exposing yourself to the same stimulus that married people expose themselves to who fall prey to an affair.

You can claim it won't get to you, but... there is a risk there to my mind.

If he wants to write letters, let him write them.. but don't READ THEM.

You give him the book, and wait... that's it.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> The only reservation I would have is you giving an ultimatum. To a passive aggressive, that's at THREAT.
> 
> And he's NOT going to react well to that.
> 
> I am NOT suggesting you don't leave, I am suggesting you hand him a landmark book on what he needs to know to clean up the mess he made, and get your finances in order.
> 
> If a job offer comes in before he's done enough to satisfy you, then LEAVE, quietly, and quickly, while he's OUT Of STATE.
> 
> No threat, no ultimatum, nothing. Just a quiet exit.
> 
> If you threaten him, offer him an ultimatum, or anything like that, you increase the risk of tipping him off that you are making an EXIT.
> 
> The risk of you "entertaining" his claims to be willing to do anything is that you may get swayed by them. It's hard to maintain resolve to EXIT while someone shouts "I love you" from the rooftops, no matter how insincere the shouts may be.
> 
> To my mind that makes it worse, he's better off saying and doing nothing.
> 
> He's wasting his energy thrashing and flailing about. It's just blatant manipulation.
> 
> If he's willing to put all that energy into manipulate you, he may as well crack open the book and read instead.
> 
> He's better off just working at his dangerous job and not trying, it would be less offensive, to my mind. Window washer or whatever he's doing. He's going to get more credit there than making hollow claims in your direction.
> 
> You said he's done some family therapy of his own accord a long time ago. So he DOES have enough wherewithal to DO the RESEARCH on his own.
> 
> Hand him _Not Just Friends_, and that's as far as I would go with that investment. You have wasted more than enough energy on him while he's just perpetuating one deception or threat after another.
> 
> There isn't just the issue of his cheating here
> 
> a. he lies
> b. he cheats
> c. he defends his behavior (rather than owns his behavior)
> d. he invites OW into the marital home to bully you
> e. he visits date websites
> f. he threatens financial abandonment
> g. he keeps secret internet accounts
> 
> I realize that you have had a history together, and in the PAST he's been great at times, but people DO CHANGE.
> 
> Many spouses will turn 40, or 45, or their parents pass away suddenly and then your spouse becomes a different person.
> 
> The other one never comes back. It's just how people change over time.
> 
> Some people change for the better, others not so much.
> 
> OW influences him too..he spends countless hours in her company, she IS going to rub off on him.
> 
> OW is a terribly bad influence and HE ALLOWS her to influence him to his detriment.
> 
> I wouldn't suggest he can't change for the better again.
> 
> But not under your present circumstances.
> 
> Particularly with him being out of state for 3 weeks of every four you have no way to get any transparency from him.
> 
> Long distance relationships do NOT WORK long term.
> 
> Particularly due to the risk of infidelity, and the lack of intimacy that happens when people are apart.
> 
> To my mind the both of you would have to be in the SAME CITY for this to work at this point.
> 
> Along with all the other repair work necessary, you two would not be able to keep this long distance thing going and have a sucessful R.
> 
> To my mind you MOVING is the ONLY WAY LEFT to pressure him to make a BIG CHANGE in his life to earn your trust back.
> 
> And entertaining his words right now runs the risk of confusing that, NOT UNLIKE a married man listening to an OW talk to him on the phone.. These are just words, but they CAN IMPACT. Countless affairs all over the country is evidence of that. You ARE exposing yourself to the same stimulus that married people expose themselves to who fall prey to an affair.
> 
> You can claim it won't get to you, but... there is a risk there to my mind.
> 
> If he wants to write letters, let him write them.. but don't READ THEM.
> 
> You give him the book, and wait... that's it.


-----------------------------------

Already brought the book. He gets the hard copy and I’ll have an electronic one. He is here next week so will start reading it at same time. What is going on now is he has been disclosing more about the affair and its very uncomfortable to find out certain things, but necessary. 

When this happened he said some of the same things he is saying now but the difference is he is actually starting to act on them. I didn’t budge then thus the acting out from him and flailing around with all the things I have been talking about here. After trying everything else perhaps he is ready to try doing the right thing, again I will only observe if it is or not.

The affair, I gather that it’s a culmination of things with midlife crisis, my apathy with marriage, not being stable with income, in his opinion I didn’t accept his kids, feeling like a failure of father, threatened by my friends, I can go on and on with contributing factors. So much has built up to this point on both sides.

However, the things that played out here happened in a short amount of time, its hard to phantom that the issues are permanent though they may very well be. 

I don’t want to condemn him as I would have to condemn my self for my part in the marriage going south ( not the affair, I want to make that clear). For the records I want to own up to my personality traits which can be very selfcented and self serving at times but that’s a conversation for another time…

The ow is here. Supposedly its over so not sure if she is still influencing anything. She had shouted to me that this was no big deal so I get the impression h was not the main guy. 

I am incline to think that it probably is over hence h needing to talk on the dating chat line which he purposely does from the joint email btw... again to get my attention. I ignore him so he does all kinds of hair brain schemes to try to get at me and I ignore more because I wont give the satisfaction. 

The schedule is 10/4 and is 8hr away with shifts being 15 hr or more from reading job complaint posts and h’s account of it. Not to say he cant make time to screw around but its not exactly a vacation when he is there. What is strange about this long distance arrangement is that I don’t long for him to be here, even before I knew about the affair. 

Before and after this I’m fairly independent and according to some often aloof which is that and his own inability to properly cope the reason for his attention seeking elsewhere. This is something I am working on in ic because it also affects other relationships.

His professing pure emotion comes off as drivel to me without action. You say it’s a risk in me entertaining his words, I not, I’m only entertaining (Action). If there is none then it will not be acknowledged.

So what is the option since I’m still here for the circumstances I already went over? Don’t entertain the actions then he says fine since there is no chance I wont pay…which now I am about 80% sure he wont follow through with , but still.

You don’t think he is a good candidate for R for all the sundry reasons which are valid. Ok -consider I am not ready for R and may never be despite how this pans out. Especially if the job circumstances change in my favor and we are still in this same spot when that occurs.

At the same time though, also think it can be salvaged with a lot of work and outside help if H is willing to do the work. I am by nature an optimist, but practical to the core also so opportunity and time will tell what happens next.


----------



## Allen_A

You two will have to find a way to work in the same city. I can guarantee you that.

Long distance relationships don't work to begin with. If you add in

a. your husband's maturity level
b. your husband's history of infidelity
c. a marriage already torn apart by infidelity

You really can't make this work with him away in another state most of the time. YOU may be mature and cope well, but he won't. He clearly throws tantrums when he does not get attention. You are in another state. He will just hit the internet and find someone else.

Yes, he has a tight schedule when he's out of state, but MANY cheating spouses just use work as a cover and cheat during their work hours. Your husband would be no different there.

He will tell you he has to work an extra week or weekend, and it will just be a lie so he can cheat.

I have every confidence in you, I do, but I have zero in him and the situation as it is. If the two of you get work in the same city that's a step forward.

But with his history and the current living arrangement, this isn't going to work. Something big is going to have to change.


----------



## happy as a clam

arandomlady said:


> I am inclined to think that it probably is over *hence h needing to talk on the dating chat line* which he purposely does from the joint email btw... again to get my attention. *I ignore him so he does all kinds of hair brain schemes to try to get at me* and I ignore more because I wont give the satisfaction.


See, this is the part I just don't get. I've been following your whole story. I can't understand why anyone who wanted to salvage their marriage would go on dating sites to "get your attention." This doesn't seem like a rational way to prove to your wife that you love her and want to R.

And more importantly, why would you want someone back who deliberately tries to "get your goat" and hurt you?


----------



## Allen_A

happy as a clam said:


> See, this is the part I just don't get. I've been following your whole story. I can't understand why anyone who wanted to salvage their marriage would go on dating sites to "get your attention." This doesn't seem like a rational way to prove to your wife that you love her and want to R.
> 
> And more importantly, why would you want someone back who deliberately tries to "get your goat" and hurt you?


He's passive aggressive.

Hurting people is how he expresses his dissatisfaction with them.

He needs treatment for that by an IC.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> You two will have to find a way to work in the same city. I can guarantee you that.
> 
> Long distance relationships don't work to begin with. If you add in
> 
> a. your husband's maturity level
> b. your husband's history of infidelity
> c. a marriage already torn apart by infidelity
> 
> You really can't make this work with him away in another state most of the time. YOU may be mature and cope well, but he won't. He clearly throws tantrums when he does not get attention. You are in another state. He will just hit the internet and find someone else.
> 
> Yes, he has a tight schedule when he's out of state, but MANY cheating spouses just use work as a cover and cheat during their work hours. Your husband would be no different there.
> 
> He will tell you he has to work an extra week or weekend, and it will just be a lie so he can cheat.
> 
> I have every confidence in you, I do, but I have zero in him and the situation as it is. If the two of you get work in the same city that's a step forward.
> 
> But with his history and the current living arrangement, this isn't going to work. Something big is going to have to change.


---------------------------------

Yes this has occurred to me…which was my concern about him seeking the job in the first place even before I had any idea he was having an affair with someone here… You have to understand, he has only been working there the last 5 months… I figured at some point with a promotion or something he would go to better locale and eventually I would go to where his job is as his income would warrant that. 

Where he is now, the job opportunities are not the great plus my company isn’t there and we still have the home here the next major city is more than 4 hours away from his position that I could potentially transfer to but it wouldn’t be worth the headache plus I don’t want to live in that city for sundry reasons. I actually agree with you wholeheartedly on this given what has happened especially.

I’m going to level with you guys, though I’m slightly optimistic, I’m a betting person, I would bet against us remaining married for much longer. To be honest, I suspect my hand will be forced either by job opportunity, limbo fatigue, or other shenanigans from h and I will be out sooner than later.

I think I mentioned earlier on here that the work schedule is actually additional evidence that I had to make the confront. I have access to his company intranet for benefits and wanted t make sure the hours were correct as he has a tendency to under report and I like to know these things ( also know exactly what the take home is if you catch my drift). So yeah I know all about that…


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I’m going to level with you guys, though I’m slightly optimistic, I’m a betting person, I would bet against us remaining married for much longer. To be honest, I suspect my hand will be forced either by job opportunity, limbo fatigue, or other shenanigans from h and I will be out sooner than later.


ok, that sounds like you have your head on your shoulders.

It's nice to think the best, but you have to live as if the worst is coming your way.

You can't let those optimistic fantasies distract you from taking actions to stay alive in the storm.


----------



## arandomlady

happy as a clam said:


> See, this is the part I just don't get. I've been following your whole story. I can't understand why anyone who wanted to salvage their marriage would go on dating sites to "get your attention." This doesn't seem like a rational way to prove to your wife that you love her and want to R.
> 
> And more importantly, why would you want someone back who deliberately tries to "get your goat" and hurt you?


---------------------------

I know right hence no movement from me towards R. Remember I have not moved from my position from the get go on this as H hadnt shown remorse to the level I need or taken initiative to fix this.


His reasoning is warped and he is immature so yeah I have told him about this and he just brings up my flaws and says he loves me so I to love him despite this. I have recommended counseling way before this and he always balked at the idea. 

I admit, with me being apathetic a lot in the marriage he dropped and I left it at that. My focus was on just trying to get him to stabilize himself career wise due to the finances then we could have room to breathe about the intangibles in the marriage.

Yes the "why" well if I knew that then I probably wouldn't be in this situation...lol Its something I am dealing with in ic and being pressed really hard my counselor. The only thing I can think of is how I grew up may be playing apart in this though I am not the sort to attribute childhood to my adult life. 

I am finding that I have a tendency to overlook and cover a multitude of sins with my love for a person and in this case its to a fault. My dad was a cheater I was upset with his treatment of my mother and stepmother yet felt I needed to forgive that and not disown him because good outweighed bad.

I subscribe to a certain Christian way so to speak though I am not particularly religious and believe in forgiveness as I would like to be forgiven. Not to say this means I'm not going to hold accountable though.. not sure if this is clear


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> He's passive aggressive.
> 
> Hurting people is how he expresses his dissatisfaction with them.
> 
> He needs treatment for that by an IC.


-------------------------

Right but I didn't know what to call it. Its something I noticed earlier on but I wasn't sure of what the deal was. I loved him and didn't make a case out of it.

Later on in our marriage I got to resent this more and more with other things he would do so I would check out and ignore him. Now was that the right approach, no but I needed sanity from nonsense.

The thing is my complaints and his up to this point never warranted divorce so since there was this unspoken thing that neither one of us was going anywhere for real, you can imagine how things can get

I had suggested counseling for both of us for our sundry issues and he wouldn't and I thought well I'm not going to go if he doesn't... my own immaturity 

Now that this has happened, I am more self reflective and wanting to get to the bottom of a lot of things I have done and how to know myself so I can avoid pitfalls.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> ok, that sounds like you have your head on your shoulders.
> 
> It's nice to think the best, but you have to live as if the worst is coming your way.
> 
> You can't let those optimistic fantasies distract you from taking actions to stay alive in the storm.


------------------------

I thought I was making this clear the whole time. I am not a head in clouds kind of person, to the core, I am an planner for worst case scenario. I guess there is entailing of emotion in the rational/logical portions of what I'm saying that is giving a different impression.

Its hard to come to realization a marriage of this long is ending, the fact that I'm disclosing to more and people because of the reality of the situation, makes it more concrete because I don't want it to have optics of me being a rash decision.

The hesitancy you are reading is that I want to be absolutely its done, for me. As naïve as I may sound, divorce was just not something I ever considered pre-affair.

So yeah, part of me doesn't want to come off as being completely hopeless though looking at all these factors, it would be hard not to be. Does this mean my head is in the sand, no quite the opposite.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> So yeah, part of me doesn't want to come off as being completely hopeless though looking at all these factors, it would be hard not to be. Does this mean my head is in the sand, no quite the opposite.


The marriage is not hopeless, but HE is until he changes.. a LOT.

From what you have typed thus far, you have been carrying him for a LONG time.

Parent - child dynamics don't work in a marriage.

He's practically co-dependent on you now.

All of that nonsense has to stop. You have to stop mothering him, which you have done already, and he needs to start taking responsibility for his own life.

But right now he won't. He wants to blame you rather than owning his own behavior.

That's the thing a LOT of cheating spouses do.

They get caught cheating, and then they haul out this laundry list of ways in which their betrayed spouse contaminates the marriage, as if that justifies everything.

But your husband fails STILL to recognize that he made JUST AS MANY contaminating mistakes PRE-AFFAIR too.

Has he even recognized that? SO many cheaters think they were angels before they started cheating, which is BULL.

The contaminates may have been EVEN pre-affair, but I'm sure your husband was no angel. From what he's said thus far, has he owned anything OTHER than cheating?


----------



## happy as a clam

Random Lady,

I lived with a passive aggressive husband (now ex) for 20 years. Let me tell you (as I'm sure you have already discovered for yourself) it is no picnic. Let me give you an example of our daily (almost hourly) exchanges:

We were getting ready to go on a trip. His sneakers were by the door.

ME: "Are these the sneakers you're wearing on the trip?"

HIM: "Those are the *ONLY* sneakers I *HAVE*!!! I don't *HAVE* any other sneakers to wear!!! Unlike *you*!!!!!"

_(TRANSLATION: His passive aggressive way to BLAME me for the fact that he can't take care of his own clothing needs.)_

ME: (Because I refused to put up with his bullish*t any longer): "I didn't ask you *how many pairs of shoes you own.* I simply asked if THESE are the shoes you're wearing. A simple yes or no will suffice."

Random Lady... this is NOT living. This is duking it out, hour by hour, in a bleak sparring war.

So I ask you, do you REALLY want to live with a PA a$$hole?


----------



## clipclop2

I tend to trust ARL's judgment. She is smart and sensible even with her personality flaws.

Here are my observations:

Your husband's passive aggressiveness will not disappear in R and will continue to be a serious problem in your marriage.

He will never become a pro-active person. You will always be Mom.

He will continue to be a liar because he is to much of a wussy to do the right thing in the first place and cannot handle Mom's wrath.

It sure sounds like he has mommy issues from way back.

He really doesn't want to lose you, thus the watch. It was his way of keeping you close. Symbolic. But he will probably stop wearing it.

He wants you to visit him so he can keep an eye on YOU and convince you there is nothing going on there because he will hide it while you are there. But look how well the OW worked out for him. She ended up at your door. He has lousy judgment. 

Lousy judgement = more lies

He is entitled to 1/2 your 401K. 

You are right about defaulting on your loan. It will go down as an early disbursement and you will have to pony up the 10% penalty and state and federal tax out of God knows what.

His willingness, real or apparent, too do what you have SPELLED out for him will at first please you then anger you. Why do you have to tell him EVERYTHING? Does he really have no clue or has his delay tactic failed? Both. What you will find is that add soon as things look better he will not follow through because his little child brain will say it is no longer necessary. Lather, rinse, repeat.

All that said, the thing that worries me is that you tend to be very truthful with him and will have a difficult time allowng him to think R is really possible sooner than you would prefer when he does the things that are inevitable for his personality. 

You have said he needs to go on dating sites like that is normal for someone who needs attention. Not for a married man it isn't! He wants to talk to other women. Period. He does want your attention but it is again the Mommy thing. It isn't too make things better. It is to make himself feel better... Mommy is still there. His security blanket is still there. But he sure as heck doesn't want to give up his freedom. He wants both. And he will continue to seek attention from anyone who will provide it.

I do see your logical mind at work and I know you know him well. But do not think that your role in the demise of the marriage caused him to do anything. I would be surprised if there weren't other forays in his past of which you are unaware. 

Has he has the STD test yet? If not, why not? Walk in clinics are open 24/7.

Lie detector test.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> The marriage is not hopeless, but HE is until he changes.. a LOT.
> 
> From what you have typed thus far, you have been carrying him for a LONG time.
> 
> Parent - child dynamics don't work in a marriage.
> 
> He's practically co-dependent on you now.
> 
> All of that nonsense has to stop. You have to stop mothering him, which you have done already, and he needs to start taking responsibility for his own life.
> 
> But right now he won't. He wants to blame you rather than owning his own behavior.
> 
> That's the thing a LOT of cheating spouses do.
> 
> They get caught cheating, and then they haul out this laundry list of ways in which their betrayed spouse contaminates the marriage, as if that justifies everything.
> 
> But your husband fails STILL to recognize that he made JUST AS MANY contaminating mistakes PRE-AFFAIR too.
> 
> Has he even recognized that? SO many cheaters think they were angels before they started cheating, which is BULL.
> 
> The contaminates may have been EVEN pre-affair, but I'm sure your husband was no angel. From what he's said thus far, has he owned anything OTHER than cheating?


------------------------

Funny you mention that, his part in this mess per his comments to me are that his faults are that he put me ahead of his children… he plays the victim that supposedly “held on” for a long as he can through my alleged abuse i.e being confident/ not clingy, no attention/affection, having good friends/ colleagues, making him feel like he is a bum because wont have kids, etc etc so I would say NO. It’s the equivalent of the interview question of whats your greatest weakness and the person saying I work too hard…

This will probably seem ridiculous to you guys but I never realized the parent/child dynamics of our marriage until now. But with everything I have done and his actions the counselor, family friends, you guys are pointing things out and I’m like, yeah it appears I am mothering… Which is weird because I’m not even maternal in the natural sense.


----------



## arandomlady

happy as a clam said:


> Random Lady,
> 
> I lived with a passive aggressive husband (now ex) for 20 years. Let me tell you (as I'm sure you have already discovered for yourself) it is no picnic. Let me give you an example of our daily (almost hourly) exchanges:
> 
> We were getting ready to go on a trip. His sneakers were by the door.
> 
> ME: "Are these the sneakers you're wearing on the trip?"
> 
> HIM: "Those are the *ONLY* sneakers I *HAVE*!!! I don't *HAVE* any other sneakers to wear!!! Unlike *you*!!!!!"
> 
> _(TRANSLATION: His passive aggressive way to BLAME me for the fact that he can't take care of his own clothing needs.)_
> 
> ME: (Because I refused to put up with his bullish*t any longer): "I didn't ask you *how many pairs of shoes you own.* I simply asked if THESE are the shoes you're wearing. A simple yes or no will suffice."
> 
> Random Lady... this is NOT living. This is duking it out, hour by hour, in a bleak sparring war.
> 
> So I ask you, do you REALLY want to live with a PA a$$hole?


---------------------------

Well when you put it that way, No. lol Thought I didn't know what I was dealing with, I didn't engage him so that would escalate the antics, things like silent treatment for days. Just miscellaneous bs all around.

I'm a pretty straightforward person saying what I mean when I mean it and sometimes very blunt s you can imagine not a good combination . No he would deny he is doing anything. He told me at one point I was on a power trip because I asked to see his phone...


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> ------------------------
> 
> Funny you mention that, his part in this mess per his comments to me are that his faults are that he put me ahead of his children… he plays the victim that supposedly “held on” for a long as he can through my alleged abuse i.e being confident/ not clingy, no attention/affection, having good friends/ colleagues, making him feel like he is a bum because wont have kids, etc etc so I would say NO. It’s the equivalent of the interview question of whats your greatest weakness and the person saying I work too hard…


It's just more passive aggression... his fault is that he put you ahead?

So, he's blaming you for his children's neglect.

It's just one punch after another.

At some point in life this man-child is gonna have to say "I did x, and nothing is the cause of it.. just me being immature.."

He's got a _reason _for every choice he makes. And by reason I mean _scapegoat_.



arandomlady said:


> This will probably seem ridiculous to you guys but I never realized the parent/child dynamics of our marriage until now. But with everything I have done and his actions the counselor, family friends, you guys are pointing things out and I’m like, yeah it appears I am mothering… Which is weird because I’m not even maternal in the natural sense.


Mother's dont realize they are mothering usually.

You may not have children of your own, but your instincts are certainly there.

He has become your problem child.

The problem is, unlike children, he has independence. You can't ground him, you can't take away his toys, you can't withhold his allowance.

He's a legal adult with the maturity of a child.

You cannot effectively mother that.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> No he would deny he is doing anything. He told me at one point I was on a power trip because I asked to see his phone...


This is all passive aggression and immaturity.

It's always someone else's fault, and when he has to be vulnerable or make a sacrifice, someone's "controlling him."

Boo Hoo.

I deliberately make a POINT of sharing my phone with my wife.

Whenever she asks me the time I just hand her my phone to open and check herself. My password changes every 90 days (part of the plan) and if she needs hte pwd, I tell it to her right then and there.

A lot of work to find out the time I know, but I am making a point to her about transparency when I do that.

It's almost the REVERSE of what your husband does.

Next time he says you are controlling him just retort :

_I am protecting this marriage, and you ought to appreciate me looking out for our marriage rather than criticizing me.
_

I mean.. seriously.. what HARM is you using his phone? It's not like you are breaking his legs or something.. what a drama queen. It's just a damn PHONE.

If he wants privacy tell him to go use a washroom. THAT is where he gets some private time... to urinate. Everything else ought to be an open book.


----------



## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> I tend to trust ARL's judgment. She is smart and sensible even with her personality flaws.
> 
> Here are my observations:
> 
> Your husband's passive aggressiveness will not disappear in R and will continue to be a serious problem in your marriage.
> 
> He will never become a pro-active person. You will always be Mom.
> 
> He will continue to be a liar because he is to much of a wussy to do the right thing in the first place and cannot handle Mom's wrath.
> 
> It sure sounds like he has mommy issues from way back.
> 
> He really doesn't want to lose you, thus the watch. It was his way of keeping you close. Symbolic. But he will probably stop wearing it.
> 
> He wants you to visit him so he can keep an eye on YOU and convince you there is nothing going on there because he will hide it while you are there. But look how well the OW worked out for him. She ended up at your door. He has lousy judgment.
> 
> Lousy judgement = more lies
> 
> He is entitled to 1/2 your 401K.
> 
> You are right about defaulting on your loan. It will go down as an early disbursement and you will have to pony up the 10% penalty and state and federal tax out of God knows what.
> 
> His willingness, real or apparent, too do what you have SPELLED out for him will at first please you then anger you. Why do you have to tell him EVERYTHING? Does he really have no clue or has his delay tactic failed? Both. What you will find is that add soon as things look better he will not follow through because his little child brain will say it is no longer necessary. Lather, rinse, repeat.
> 
> All that said, the thing that worries me is that you tend to be very truthful with him and will have a difficult time allowng him to think R is really possible sooner than you would prefer when he does the things that are inevitable for his personality.
> 
> You have said he needs to go on dating sites like that is normal for someone who needs attention. Not for a married man it isn't! He wants to talk to other women. Period. He does want your attention but it is again the Mommy thing. It isn't too make things better. It is to make himself feel better... Mommy is still there. His security blanket is still there. But he sure as heck doesn't want to give up his freedom. He wants both. And he will continue to seek attention from anyone who will provide it.
> 
> I do see your logical mind at work and I know you know him well. But do not think that your role in the demise of the marriage caused him to do anything. I would be surprised if there weren't other forays in his past of which you are unaware.
> 
> Has he has the STD test yet? If not, why not? Walk in clinics are open 24/7.
> 
> Lie detector test.


----------------------------------





Appreciate that because lately have been feeling like Fredo from the Godfather “ I’m smaat, not like everybody says”...lol

Ooh you are so on point here its eerie. On the 401k well then we are even because half of it is debt accrued in marriage from paying the mortgage when he was lacking income. We are going to pro se divorce so wont I bother with that since I am leaving the house and contents to him but only after my escape is planed and mostly executed. 

I just realized that it is still mothering him to do just that, DOH! No he wont carry it fully because him doing the right thing will be contingent on me resuming things which I still wont. You are right about being able to play along with this. I think I can to some degree but i’m hoping I wont have to for very long which is why I am saying I know we wont remain married for much longer.

No I don’t think it is normal at all with the dating sites and yes he wants other women to make himself better, I get that and it hurts. This is one of the myriad reason I simply cant resume the marriage. He will always default to that, I am coming to understand that which makes it easier to close the door here.

No he hasn’t and I have requested it from him as soon as I found out and got myself tested. I requested it again. Keep in mind I am not resuming relations with him but yeah I want it done still. You are probably be right about this occurring before but I was unaware.

The thought obviously continues to plague me, especially with his response to being caught. The overall aftermath of this is a crescendo that inevitably leads to divorce and I am coming to terms with that.


----------



## Allen_A

Check this guy out :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8aJUAK1RG4

He's passive aggressive and defaults to sex outside the marriage too. He actually uses infidelity as a THREAT to pressure his wife to be more sexual with him. Not unlike how your husband uses his online dating site accounts.

And the fool thinks he can make a marriage work doing that crap.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> It's just more passive aggression... his fault is that he put you ahead?
> 
> So, he's blaming you for his children's neglect.
> 
> It's just one punch after another.
> 
> At some point in life this man-child is gonna have to say "I did x, and nothing is the cause of it.. just me being immature.."
> 
> He's got a _reason _for every choice he makes. And by reason I mean _scapegoat_.
> -----------------------------
> so true. he actually said he was shoring up MY lifestyle...ok do I live alone? HELLO.. so you are right, its mind numbing and I am coming to knowledge of the manipulation and passive aggressive ness.
> 
> 
> 
> Mother's dont realize they are mothering usually.
> 
> You may not have children of your own, but your instincts are certainly there.
> 
> He has become your problem child.
> 
> The problem is, unlike children, he has independence. You can't ground him, you can't take away his toys, you can't withhold his allowance.
> 
> He's a legal adult with the maturity of a child.
> 
> You cannot effectively mother that.


---------------------

I guess I'm uncomfortable with the mothering term since I am pretty sure I don't want to be one but now get I have been transferring any instinct that I would have used on a child on him! I am disturbed with myself on this you guys don't even know. 

My younger brother who is in his mid twenties made the comment to me recently that he thinks h is immature. Other people now saying h was not the right match for me for sundry reasons ( including maturity and lack of direction) they ascertained in knowing us for years but they would never tell me that prior to knowing I am leaving. 

Its crazy what other people perceive and what I didn't or refused to see...


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> This is all passive aggression and immaturity.
> 
> It's always someone else's fault, and when he has to be vulnerable or make a sacrifice, someone's "controlling him."
> 
> Boo Hoo.
> 
> I deliberately make a POINT of sharing my phone with my wife.
> 
> Whenever she asks me the time I just hand her my phone to open and check herself. My password changes every 90 days (part of the plan) and if she needs hte pwd, I tell it to her right then and there.
> 
> A lot of work to find out the time I know, but I am making a point to her about transparency when I do that.
> 
> It's almost the REVERSE of what your husband does.
> 
> Next time he says you are controlling him just retort :
> 
> _I am protecting this marriage, and you ought to appreciate me looking out for our marriage rather than criticizing me.
> _
> 
> I mean.. seriously.. what HARM is you using his phone? It's not like you are breaking his legs or something.. what a drama queen. It's just a damn PHONE.
> 
> If he wants privacy tell him to go use a washroom. THAT is where he gets some private time... to urinate. Everything else ought to be an open book.


___________________________________

THIS!!!!! which again is why no resuming the marriage even thought says no contact with ow ... along with the other aforementioned things is apparent to me that he is actively working again improving the marriage.

I think I mentioned his attitude is actually defiant in my opinion rather than remorseful and that his actions HAVE been that of an enemy combatant not a remorseful husband. 

I am starting to believe that this whole thing is a passive aggressive attempt to end the marriage and make me be the one to do it.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Check this guy out :
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8aJUAK1RG4
> 
> He's passive aggressive and defaults to sex outside the marriage too. He actually uses infidelity as a THREAT to pressure his wife to be more sexual with him. Not unlike how your husband uses his online dating site accounts.
> 
> And the fool thinks he can make a marriage work doing that crap.


---------------------------
oh man that was crazy, sadly I could see h's viewpoint in some of that maniacs comments. I cant help to reflect back on things and try to pinpoint how this happened. I created a monster


----------



## Catherine602

Allen is so on target it's scary. You do have a parent child relationship. He is the rebellious teenager. You are trying to make him grow up and he is resisting. Teens are torn between childhood attachment to their parent and independence.

He still needs your support while he adjust to his new found independence. You didn't create him, you picked him. Simple solution - once you get rid of him, get you picker fixed. Eventually he is likely to find a woman who is willing to take care of him full time where he is living now. 

This is not conscious on your part or his but that's what your relationship is, a man that has never progresses though the stages to full adulthood psychologically. He found a woman who is organized, successful, willing to support a man-child and willing to be there for him while he goes through teenager angst 

He stuck in that stage and you can't help him grow up like you have been trying to do for the last 13 yrs . He has to work hard to do that himself. You missed the signs that he was not a grown up in the hope that he would change. 

If you were not so wiling to tolerate his lack of maturity, you would have gotten rid of him as soon as you realized he was lazy and willing to let you foot the bill. The financial problems are a result of depending on an unreliable man. 

The only way you will be able to move on is to reframe the way you approach relationships and who you are as a woman. You don't have to do things for men to get love. You just need to be youself and expect to get as much you give. 

I think you will de well though. It gong to be like flipping a switch. Once you get it, you will easily move on. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> ---------------------------
> oh man that was crazy, sadly I could see h's viewpoint in some of that maniacs comments. I cant help to reflect back on things and try to pinpoint how this happened. I created a monster


What viewpoint was the husband in the video on target with? He just sounded like a spoiled brat to me.

He certainly is "defiant" as you put it, rather than remorseful.

I dunno, I dont think you created a monster. The monster was in him already.. unfortunately he decided to bring the monster OUT rather than retiring the monster and growing up.

I don't think you two are a bad match. I just think he's immature and passive aggressive. Those are HIS problems. He takes those WITH HIM. He is a BAD MATCH for ANYONE.

Sometimes couples have bad dynamics. They are fine as individuals, but they aren't working well as a team. That's fine. Those are marital issues and can be worked on. That's normal.

Individual issues that are brought INTO the marriage, either overtly or COVERTLY your husband has to work on himself. That has nothing to do with you creating anything.

1. passive aggressive
2. compulsive liar
3. financial infidelity
4. promiscuous
5. bad relationship boundaries
6. drinking to excess
7. violence
8. compulsive gambling

Those are individual issues. We don't create those. He brought those TO the marriage (not all of the above, but you can cherry pick the ones that fit, those are just examples). Many of these are SNUCK into the marriage covertly, so the damage is done without you even knowing. Covert bad habits are the WORST. Violence may be terrible, but at least you know it's happening to you, unlike cheating or financial destructiveness. THAT you find out MONTHS LATER. It's all bad, but I just find the covert stuff to be particularly troublesome, due to it's subtle nature.

We all have luggage with us, emotional luggage. His is just a terrible burden and he isnt' even willing to carry it.

You didn't create that luggage. His life experience built that up. He was like that before you met him.

Have you spoken with his x wife? Any patterns there that you are finding? Did he cheat on his first wife?


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> ___________________________________
> 
> THIS!!!!! which again is why no resuming the marriage even thought says no contact with ow ... along with the other aforementioned things is apparent to me that he is actively working again improving the marriage.
> 
> I think I mentioned his attitude is actually defiant in my opinion rather than remorseful and that his actions HAVE been that of an enemy combatant not a remorseful husband.
> 
> I am starting to believe that this whole thing is a passive aggressive attempt to end the marriage and make me be the one to do it.


Many affairs are passive aggressive. Spouses will often ADMIT this, not in so many words.

When you confront them about their cheating, they bring out a laundry list of horrible things you do to contaminate the marriage. So, they are essentially saying their aggressive behavior in secret is motivated as a retaliation. That IS passive aggressive.

Aggressive = hurt my spouse
Passive = don't make it look too obvious

That's infidelity in a nutshell.

There are other behaviors that follow it, financial infidelity for example. A spouse can TRASH the household finances and create a complete mess.. purely out of CHILDISH RAGE.

It's not constructive, but they know it will GET YOUR ATTENTION that THEY are hurt or upset.

And ya, a lot of spouses want to EXIT a marriage, but they insist on going out with a BANG rather than with their dignity intact. Again, it's passive aggressive and childish. They can't just exit with some grace and maturity, they have to exit the marriage kicking and screaming for some childish reason.

He may want out, but he can exit like an adult rather than throwing a tantrum in secret that results in marital destruction.

He can leave your home with some maturity rather than setting the whole HOUSE ABLAZE on his way out the door.

It's childish.


----------



## arandomlady

Catherine602 said:


> Allen is so on target it's scary. You do have a parent child relationship. He is the rebellious teenager. You are trying to make him grow up and he is resisting. Teens are torn between childhood attachment to their parent and independence.
> 
> He still needs your support while he adjust to his new found independence. You didn't create him, you picked him. Simple solution - once you get rid of him, get you picker fixed. Eventually he is likely to find a woman who is willing to take care of him full time where he is living now.
> 
> This is not conscious on your part or his but that's what your relationship is, a man that has never progresses though the stages to full adulthood psychologically. He found a woman who is organized, successful, willing to support a man-child and willing to be there for him while he goes through teenager angst
> 
> He stuck in that stage and you can't help him grow up like you have been trying to do for the last 13 yrs . He has to work hard to do that himself. You missed the signs that he was not a grown up in the hope that he would change.
> 
> If you were not so wiling to tolerate his lack of maturity, you would have gotten rid of him as soon as you realized he was lazy and willing to let you foot the bill. The financial problems are a result of depending on an unreliable man.
> 
> The only way you will be able to move on is to reframe the way you approach relationships and who you are as a woman. You don't have to do things for men to get love. You just need to be youself and expect to get as much you give.
> 
> I think you will de well though. It gong to be like flipping a switch. Once you get it, you will easily move on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


------------------


Yes it seems that all the posters on the thread are completely on point especially Allen A, Clipclop, others. I need to read these things because my personal peanut gallery is not as through and thought provoking as you guys. Plus when you get to talking to people they turn things into talking about their situation which is fine because I’ll listen as a friend but its nice to keep things just at this level of what I expressed about the situation then expound on THAT.

The thing is in the beginning he was doing about at the level financially of what I would expect of someone in lates 20s, I was very early twenties when got together and had dated here and there but didn’t really have a frame of reference of what I wanted . 

We were both in college there were no markers for the potential of me carrying or taking care of him until later… then as time went on it seems he just had bad luck with jobs, not finishing one thing before beginning another, always looking for another job/career and the time rolls on and the lack of direction n career takes it toll. He always had me thinking he was going to get us to financial security jus getting us through bumps in road.

The whole thing with my leeway with h was that he grew up without knowing his father and knowing how much my dad is in my life and the significance of that I often felt sorry for him then I guess without realizing it the mothering thing reared it head…I never thought about h being in perpetual adolescence but that is exactly what is at play here. I cant believe I never realized it.

Yes I have said that I need to get a handle on MY issues so the ic has been ongoing with occasional mc talk which ended quickly as counselor was like don’t bring him here, not remorseful he was not having it and didn’t want to really deal with h until I that was a piece of this puzzle.

I hope so I have been leaning on God, and humbling myself to try to learn about my condition and in talking here and researching, generally being curious about that to do.

This is why its such a sore point the H has NOT done this and it’s a glaring indicator to me. In his mind me (mom) will get us thru this, she’ll put together the plan as always … I’m just sick about this because it is just now “clicking” like you guys are saying..


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> What viewpoint was the husband in the video on target with? He just sounded like a spoiled brat to me.
> 
> He certainly is "defiant" as you put it, rather than remorseful.
> 
> I dunno, I dont think you created a monster. The monster was in him already.. unfortunately he decided to bring the monster OUT rather than retiring the monster and growing up.
> 
> I don't think you two are a bad match. I just think he's immature and passive aggressive. Those are HIS problems. He takes those WITH HIM. He is a BAD MATCH for ANYONE.
> 
> Sometimes couples have bad dynamics. They are fine as individuals, but they aren't working well as a team. That's fine. Those are marital issues and can be worked on. That's normal.
> 
> Individual issues that are brought INTO the marriage, either overtly or COVERTLY your husband has to work on himself. That has nothing to do with you creating anything.
> 
> 1. passive aggressive
> 2. compulsive liar
> 3. financial infidelity
> 4. promiscuous
> 5. bad relationship boundaries
> 6. drinking to excess
> 7. violence
> 8. compulsive gambling
> 
> Those are individual issues. We don't create those. He brought those TO the marriage (not all of the above, but you can cherry pick the ones that fit, those are just examples). Many of these are SNUCK into the marriage covertly, so the damage is done without you even knowing. Covert bad habits are the WORST. Violence may be terrible, but at least you know it's happening to you, unlike cheating or financial destructiveness. THAT you find out MONTHS LATER. It's all bad, but I just find the covert stuff to be particularly troublesome, due to it's subtle nature.
> 
> We all have luggage with us, emotional luggage. His is just a terrible burden and he isnt' even willing to carry it.
> 
> You didn't create that luggage. His life experience built that up. He was like that before you met him.
> 
> Have you spoken with his x wife? Any patterns there that you are finding? Did he cheat on his first wife?


------------------------
I haven't even gotten into the sexual elements of marriage. I'm sure shed additional light on the situation.

Generally like that guy on the show, the idea that my lack of sexual prowess, desire, etc is why he have so many problems. I always disagreed with him on this. The issue is that because he's so into porn, perhaps my style doesn't equate to that of paid porn actresses. 

He would actually show me clips and be like I want you to do that... ok I am not a prude by any stretch of the imagination but the whole focus with the kind of acts he wanted he to allow was based on him being gratified while to me I am being demeaned in the act. 

There was always this prevailing sense I felt from that I wasn't up to snuff with the standards of what wives do sexually. This is really hurtful as I was virgin when me so its like he uses that against me in the bedroom. I had really come a long way in a short tie at the very beginning in that department because I had wanted to explore that side of me and really be desirable for him

No I hadnt talked to his ex they were estranged and he stated that she cheated on him with his navy mates suspect one of his daughters is actually is. I'm not sure if I mentioned this but he recently told me that I was the o/w and he left his then gf at the time for me... I cant believe this as he never said this before. I almost thing he is saying so I will have sympathy for the ow or something...


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Many affairs are passive aggressive. Spouses will often ADMIT this, not in so many words.
> 
> When you confront them about their cheating, they bring out a laundry list of horrible things you do to contaminate the marriage. So, they are essentially saying their aggressive behavior in secret is motivated as a retaliation. That IS passive aggressive.
> 
> Aggressive = hurt my spouse
> Passive = don't make it look too obvious
> 
> That's infidelity in a nutshell.
> 
> There are other behaviors that follow it, financial infidelity for example. A spouse can TRASH the household finances and create a complete mess.. purely out of CHILDISH RAGE.
> 
> It's not constructive, but they know it will GET YOUR ATTENTION that THEY are hurt or upset.
> 
> And ya, a lot of spouses want to EXIT a marriage, but they insist on going out with a BANG rather than with their dignity intact. Again, it's passive aggressive and childish. They can't just exit with some grace and maturity, they have to exit the marriage kicking and screaming for some childish reason.
> 
> He may want out, but he can exit like an adult rather than throwing a tantrum in secret that results in marital destruction.
> 
> He can leave your home with some maturity rather than setting the whole HOUSE ABLAZE on his way out the door.
> 
> It's childish.


---------------------

I wish he would have just ended it before it got this level. This is the part that I cant wrap my head around. I have always considered us friends first and that we could be honest with one another and we were in the beginning then that morphed into mos son relationship somehow.

I am so glad I followed my instincts and did not have kids. that is the only saving grace with this thing. I would have rally had my work cut out for me. This is a sore point for him that feeds into his insecurity because he thinks he is the reason the why

Not to toot my own horn but I think I am a decent partner especially when I feel loved and cared for and not under so much financial strain and be pressured to be " in charge" less things fall apart.

I just cant understand why he has chosen to be so destructive. he would always say he was afraid I would him and find someone better while looks like he was trying to avoid that by being preemptive.


----------



## Catherine602

I didn't know that you knew him from your college days. That puts a different light on how things developed. You will do better than good. 

You both started out in sync but he lagged behind. Naturally you couldn't see the position your position as a caretaker. You love him so of course you would not bail at the first sign of trouble. The parent child nature took hold so slowly that you could not have seen it. 

Your normal secure attachment style and helpful nature got you into this. Insecure people look for normal generous people like you to take care of them. A year from now you will wonder why you hesitated to leave. 

He wouldn't let you know that he was about to betray you. You are the giver, he does not think you need anything. He has not been required to be considerate or to appreciate you. Was the friendship ever a two way street? Who did he giving? If you read your post again you are still talking in terms of helping him. 

Your situation is complex but not a challenge for someone like you. Take a week to get things strait in your mind. Get a plan together and follow it. Even if he was serious about R, why would you want to live for decades looking for the next OW? He will likely seem very sincere in wanting to R when you finally let go. Don't be sucked back in. Finish with him and move on to a better man. 

He will regret losing you as long as he lives. He thinks women like you are a dime a dozen. He won't let you know now but the may tell you in a year or two. By that time you will be in a relationship with a mature man and feel pity for your ex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I just cant understand why he has chosen to be so destructive. he would always say he was afraid I would him and find someone better while looks like he was trying to avoid that by being preemptive.


Tantrums are destructive. That is more or less what he's doing :

a. threats
b. defiance
c. lies
d. intimidation
e. personal attacks
f. playing other women against you

it's all just one big childish tantrum.

That's all he knows how to do when he doesn't get what he wants... throw a fit.

It's an adult fit, rather than him just going to his room and stomping around.

He has money, vehicles, his own place, etc.. so the level of tantrum and subsequent destruction is much greater.

But it's still a tantrum.

Waywards are like children with paychecks.. and very dangerous because of it.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> The issue is that because he's so into porn, perhaps my style doesn't equate to that of paid porn actresses.


And that's not reality either. He has to stop living in some fantasy world.

If you aren't comfortable with doing something, he really has to just accept that.

There are some things couples can negotiate over, but to my mind sex isnt' one of them.

I can watch a movie or listen to music I really don't care for, just to please a spouse, but you can't ask a spouse to do something SEXUAL that they just don't want to do. There are serious long term ramifications to that.

If I watch a film my spouse wants to watch, I don't feel violated if I don't care for the film. SEX that CAN happen.

And in true form he pressures you and criticizes you, plays you off against some ridiculous fantasy in a movie or a photo. That's just ridiculous.

He can't expect a marriage to be some sexual fantasy. Life does not work that way. 



arandomlady said:


> There was always this prevailing sense I felt from that I wasn't up to snuff with the standards of what wives do sexually.


Well, he's not doing actual marital research to find out what's happening in the average bedroom is he? He's looking at PORN and assuming that's what MARRIAGE is like. That's HIS mistake, not yours.

And yes, this hurts you in the process.

CHILDREN have unrealistic expectations. Part of maturing means realizing you don't get everything you want in life. That to have one thing, that necessarily means giving up something else.



arandomlady said:


> This is really hurtful as I was virgin when me so its like he uses that against me in the bedroom. I had really come a long way in a short tie at the very beginning in that department because I had wanted to explore that side of me and really be desirable for him.


Well, he's butchered that now. Infidelity really puts the dampers on the bedroom activity.



arandomlady said:


> No I hadnt talked to his ex they were estranged and he stated that she cheated on him with his navy mates suspect one of his daughters is actually is.


OK, well, that's HIS version of the story, you have'nt heard what she has to say. She may very well tell you the opposite, that HE cheated on HER.



arandomlady said:


> I'm not sure if I mentioned this but he recently told me that I was the o/w and he left his then gf at the time for me... I cant believe this as he never said this before. I almost thing he is saying so I will have sympathy for the ow or something...


Well, this also proves the infidelity has nothing to do with you.

He was cheating before he married you, he cheated WITH you. He lied to BOTH of you.

This is clearly HIS problem.

He is immature. He refuses to finish one relationship before starting another... and another, and another...

Does he have a habit of not finishing things he starts? I think you mentioned that is the case.. well.. he's doing the same with his relationships...


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I need to read these things because my personal peanut gallery is not as through and thought provoking as you guys. Plus when you get to talking to people they turn things into talking about their situation which is fine because I’ll listen as a friend but its nice to keep things just at this level of what I expressed about the situation then expound on THAT.


Well, your peanut gallery doesn't have comparable experience with nearly as many case studies as many on these types of forums do.

Some of the people here have literally read through and consulted on hundreds of cases.

Your peanut gallery doen'st make a daily habit of reviewing and advising on a handful of cases do they?

I can't imagine so. They are just using their own relationship as a single reference point and that's useless.

Heck we have shown you video footage of actual OTHER household's cases that were relevant too.

Your peanut gallery just doesn't have the experience many here do. It's not their fault, but they are in over their head.


----------



## arandomlady

Catherine602 said:


> I didn't know that you knew him from your college days. That puts a different light on how things developed. You will do better than good.
> 
> You both started out in sync but he lagged behind. Naturally you couldn't see the position your position as a caretaker. You love him so of course you would not bail at the first sign of trouble. The parent child nature took hold so slowly that you could not have seen it.
> 
> Your normal secure attachment style and helpful nature got you into this. Insecure people look for normal generous people like you to take care of them. A year from now you will wonder why you hesitated to leave.
> 
> He wouldn't let you know that he was about to betray you. You are the giver, he does not think you need anything. He has not been required to be considerate or to appreciate you. Was the friendship ever a two way street? Who did he giving? If you read your post again you are still talking in terms of helping him.
> 
> Your situation is complex but not a challenge for someone like you. Take a week to get things strait in your mind. Get a plan together and follow it. Even if he was serious about R, why would you want to live for decades looking for the next OW? He will likely seem very sincere in wanting to R when you finally let go. Don't be sucked back in. Finish with him and move on to a better man.
> 
> He will regret losing you as long as he lives. He thinks women like you are a dime a dozen. He won't let you know now but the may tell you in a year or two. By that time you will be in a relationship with a mature man and feel pity for your ex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


-------------------------


I feel like I need to be paying you guys for all your thoughtful insights. I just feel like I should have known better. How could I let this happen for so long...

I thought we were good friends, the strange thing about this is that he was not really my type so he was relegated to the "friend zone" very early on when we met. Things progressed from there. I thought it was a two way friendship perhaps it wasn't I don't really know now what to think

I sure hope that one day I can give love again, ite seems impossible now. I would too busy looking for indicators and various pitfalls to not end up back here in another few years.

I'm am devastated, I put on a good face but its so hurtful and personal this betrayal and the ow coming here. I hope you are right about being able to get over this thing. I jus want to feel normal again


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Tantrums are destructive. That is more or less what he's doing :
> 
> a. threats
> b. defiance
> c. lies
> d. intimidation
> e. personal attacks
> f. playing other women against you
> 
> it's all just one big childish tantrum.
> 
> That's all he knows how to do when he doesn't get what he wants... throw a fit.
> 
> It's an adult fit, rather than him just going to his room and stomping around.
> 
> He has money, vehicles, his own place, etc.. so the level of tantrum and subsequent destruction is much greater.
> 
> But it's still a tantrum.
> 
> Waywards are like children with paychecks.. and very dangerous because of it.


----------
now that I think about it, that is so true


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Well, your peanut gallery doesn't have comparable experience with nearly as many case studies as many on these types of forums do.
> 
> Some of the people here have literally read through and consulted on hundreds of cases.
> 
> Your peanut gallery doen'st make a daily habit of reviewing and advising on a handful of cases do they?
> 
> I can't imagine so. They are just using their own relationship as a single reference point and that's useless.
> 
> Heck we have shown you video footage of actual OTHER household's cases that were relevant too.
> 
> Your peanut gallery just doesn't have the experience many here do. It's not their fault, but they are in over their head.


------------------
yeah I try not to hold that against them they are only trying to help in the only way they know how. 

I am so alone right now. h text me everyday again like nothing is wrong and I have been answering just to play nice and be ready to get with the program I have been talking about for the longest.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> And that's not reality either. He has to stop living in some fantasy world.
> 
> If you aren't comfortable with doing something, he really has to just accept that.
> 
> There are some things couples can negotiate over, but to my mind sex isnt' one of them.
> 
> I can watch a movie or listen to music I really don't care for, just to please a spouse, but you can't ask a spouse to do something SEXUAL that they just don't want to do. There are serious long term ramifications to that.
> 
> If I watch a film my spouse wants to watch, I don't feel violated if I don't care for the film. SEX that CAN happen.
> 
> And in true form he pressures you and criticizes you, plays you off against some ridiculous fantasy in a movie or a photo. That's just ridiculous.
> 
> He can't expect a marriage to be some sexual fantasy. Life does not work that way.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, he's not doing actual marital research to find out what's happening in the average bedroom is he? He's looking at PORN and assuming that's what MARRIAGE is like. That's HIS mistake, not yours.
> 
> And yes, this hurts you in the process.
> 
> CHILDREN have unrealistic expectations. Part of maturing means realizing you don't get everything you want in life. That to have one thing, that necessarily means giving up something else.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, he's butchered that now. Infidelity really puts the dampers on the bedroom activity.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, well, that's HIS version of the story, you have'nt heard what she has to say. She may very well tell you the opposite, that HE cheated on HER.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, this also proves the infidelity has nothing to do with you.
> 
> He was cheating before he married you, he cheated WITH you. He lied to BOTH of you.
> 
> This is clearly HIS problem.
> 
> He is immature. He refuses to finish one relationship before starting another... and another, and another...
> 
> Does he have a habit of not finishing things he starts? I think you mentioned that is the case.. well.. he's doing the same with his relationships...


-------------------

I know this logically but it still hurts. he hadn't exactly used my refusal to do the acts as threats to cheat but would make such a thing about it whenever we argued, just bring it up in conversation about something else entirely.

The only physical touch there has been between us in months is the hug I allowed the last time he was home as he was leaving. I felt ickly about that. Truthfully i cant even look at him. he is the object of my pain and frustration not my h anymore. I cry as I write this

Yeah with his careers he would always start something then next thing I know its well I can make more by doing x so I'm going to do that now, then finds out oh he has to train takes years more schooling etc, then its like, well let me try doing y then... maddening

Well I know NOW that she will say he didn't pay the court ordered child support. the kids had been coming around during summer and getting them school clothes stuff like that. I had told him from the beginning to just handle it I don't want to know about that just pay it as we had our account then one also one joint one.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I know this logically but it still hurts. he hadn't exactly used my refusal to do the acts as threats to cheat but would make such a thing about it whenever we argued, just bring it up in conversation about something else entirely.


Yup, just like the guy in the video... That's why I posted it.. just seemed quite similar. I imagine it hit home a lot more watching it happen in someone else's home didn't it?

I find when you see someone else wrestling with your problem it seems a lot more objective that way. Easier to see the situation for what it is.



arandomlady said:


> Yeah with his careers he would always start something then next thing I know its well I can make more by doing x so I'm going to do that now, then finds out oh he has to train takes years more schooling etc, then its like, well let me try doing y then... maddening


Yup, it's a pattern with him then... he does the same with relationships.. just keeps looking for the short term gains. Marriage is a long term investment. You give a lot more than you get at first... At least it feels that way. It takes a long term thinker to make the investment and not blow it up before it begins to return.

I don't know if he just is impulsive, or can't work long term thinking, or maybe he just can't make up his darn mind.. hard to say... lots of motives to keep jumping around rather than settling in.



arandomlady said:


> Well I know NOW that she will say he didn't pay the court ordered child support. the kids had been coming around during summer and getting them school clothes stuff like that. I had told him from the beginning to just handle it I don't want to know about that just pay it as we had our account then one also one joint one.


Well, I am more interested in his behavioral patterns. Any idea who filed for the divorce? Was it him or her?


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I feel like I need to be paying you guys for all your thoughtful insights. I just feel like I should have known better. How could I let this happen for so long...


Oftentimes it's just easier to pretend it's not happening and live in denial. Been there myself for much longer than you in fact.

The denial will catch up with you eventually.

You will feel normal again, but this situation has to change soon or your health is going to deteriorate. You DO have the advantage of him being gone for weeks and only returning one week a month or so.

That can give you the time you need to get finances in order. If he was living there 7 days a week you would not have lasted this long. Most don't.

We all have blinders on when our spouses are concerned. The most painful part of marriage is removing them. And we all eventually DO have to remove them and deal with what we see.

You are too level headed not to get through this and thrive. You are doing the right thing in my opinion. Just get yourself financially stable so you don't have to deal with that on top of a divorce.

Leaving a spouse is hard enough, but adding financial instability on top of that can be unbearable.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Yup, just like the guy in the video... That's why I posted it.. just seemed quite similar. I imagine it hit home a lot more watching it happen in someone else's home didn't it?
> 
> I find when you see someone else wrestling with your problem it seems a lot more objective that way. Easier to see the situation for what it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, it's a pattern with him then... he does the same with relationships.. just keeps looking for the short term gains. Marriage is a long term investment. You give a lot more than you get at first... At least it feels that way. It takes a long term thinker to make the investment and not blow it up before it begins to return.
> 
> I don't know if he just is impulsive, or can't work long term thinking, or maybe he just can't make up his darn mind.. hard to say... lots of motives to keep jumping around rather than settling in.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I am more interested in his behavioral patterns. Any idea who filed for the divorce? Was it him or her?


---------------



I actually think they mutually filed for divorce. From what he says they had lived separated for years then decided to officially divorce and it wasn’t a big deal. Careerwise, I think H was really just trying to find his way as when he puts his mind to something it gets accomplished and he is very versatile in what he can do when he wants to. 

This is why I just cant understand that even though he messed up with this he is just not doing what is needed. Is he reluctantly with me? Well I don’t have to be in this situation. H always says I am never satisfied, thing is, if I know he can do better regardless of what it is we are dealing with then yes I EXPECT more. I feel that when It came to the marriage he would do less than the minimum but go above and beyond with everything else…

The guy on the video is obviously extreme but yes I did see elements of how h is and I really don’t like it because he could evolve into that guy if I don’t leave or if I had kids like the wife did. It’s the entitlement of fantasy sex and unrealistic expectation I hate most of all. Sometime tells me that the ow probably went above and beyond in that area and think that’s why she had shouted up to me that she is older than me and so on..


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Oftentimes it's just easier to pretend it's not happening and live in denial. Been there myself for much longer than you in fact.
> 
> The denial will catch up with you eventually.
> 
> You will feel normal again, but this situation has to change soon or your health is going to deteriorate. You DO have the advantage of him being gone for weeks and only returning one week a month or so.
> 
> That can give you the time you need to get finances in order. If he was living there 7 days a week you would not have lasted this long. Most don't.
> 
> We all have blinders on when our spouses are concerned. The most painful part of marriage is removing them. And we all eventually DO have to remove them and deal with what we see.
> 
> You are too level headed not to get through this and thrive. You are doing the right thing in my opinion. Just get yourself financially stable so you don't have to deal with that on top of a divorce.
> 
> Leaving a spouse is hard enough, but adding financial instability on top of that can be unbearable.


------------

I am glad you guys have confidence in me it helps to be encouraged. I found out that my dad has been telling other family members that he is worried about my mental state and questioning what I am going to do like I'm hopeless or something. It demoralizing because I have never demonstrated that I am not a capable woman in any aspect of my life...luckily my older sister has come to my defense on this.

I have said before its by the grace of God and my self-deprecating nature and grit that is powering me thru this mess. My default position is to shut down and go into auto pilot when I am not being fulfilled so that I don’t futilely exert energy unnecessarily. This is where I am but trying to mask it better to h. 

The financial piece of this is really contingent on what h does because really I wont have to convert the ch13 to ch7 and pay an atty the expense of that UNLESS he defaults. The proceeds of the car puts me in a better position but depending on where I relocate to and IF I have to go ahead and file ch7, this could very be expensive . Do I have enough to leave if a job opportunity comes up and can move yes but probably not for the ch7 atty fee and have enough savings to boot.

The timeline on this is dependent on a viable transfer with my company. There are limited places I want to go and LIVE besides where I am. I don’t want to get out and just go somewhere because there is an opening and be somewhere I hate. To make the move, I have to be somewhere I want, I wont compromise on that. 

If I find I just cant take it anymore and need to leave the house before that happens, that’s always an option to get a rental here in town though not a smart one. Since he is not here most of the time, this could be doable for awhile depending on what happens ie he keeps paying mortgage so house isn't foreclosed on.

The point is to wait it out here save money, try to play along with h and lie and wait for the transfer job opportunity ad hopefully get it. Sure the risk in the meanwhile is h will probably give me false remorse and that he wants to r but for the future, its not something I can consider.

Another thing is I think that H wants more kids and I do not want kids so even without the affair, I think the marriage would have ended anyway at somepoint so with all of this too I cant remain married to him.


----------



## arandomlady

Update:

So the h is asking me if I want to be with him and had the nerve to ask what I am willing to do to show it... really?


He is saying that need to show him this so he can know he can do what is needed to fix the marriage... so he has demands. Unbelievable.

He is do to come home Wed night. I have made up my mind that no matter what, I cant be his wife anymore but I cant tell him now.

His entitlement is staggering. I guess the fact that I have been talking to him a little gives impression we are ok. I am going to have to get acting lessons for real to get through his visit..


----------



## Allen_A

Yup.. he's all talk.

He professes he will do anything, but now just days later he's withholding again until YOU ante up.

And he says YOU are controlling?

As long as he keeps these passive aggressive head games going this isnt' going to work. I can't believe his therapist hasn't shut that down. You did say he was going to a therapist didn't you?

Well... He's playing cat and mouse again and you have to just not play along...

The honest answer is this :

_You put this marriage into the ditch with your cheating. THAT needs fixed FIRST.. THEN WE decide if we want a marriage._

But, he is not going to accept that. You know that. The book DOES explain this.. a full CHAPTER on it in fact.

He doesn't want to acknowledge that trust must be repaired FIRST before you can repair a marriage.

You have made mistakes in the marriage as has he, but HE violated trust at the deepest level and won't even own it yet.

He has to repair that or you can't move a muscle. That's just a fact.

But he wont' hear it I am sure. Gas-lighting left and right.

Did you give him the book?

You really just have to give him the book and then back off. If you start to get into it during the book exchange he will never touch the book.

Just hand him the book and tell him he needs to read that first... That's all you can say. If you say more that he's going to use t he book exchange as a springboard for a marriage tug of war like he's already foreshadowing here in his message.

Just hand him the book and get OUT of the conversation. Don't let him threaten you or bully you. If he throws a tantrum just exit the room.

When he acts like an adult THEN and ONLY then, engage.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Yup.. he's all talk.
> 
> He professes he will do anything, but now just days later he's withholding again until YOU ante up.
> 
> And he says YOU are controlling?
> 
> As long as he keeps these passive aggressive head games going this isnt' going to work. I can't believe his therapist hasn't shut that down. You did say he was going to a therapist didn't you?
> 
> Well... He's playing cat and mouse again and you have to just not play along...
> 
> The honest answer is this :
> 
> _You put this marriage into the ditch with your cheating. THAT needs fixed FIRST.. THEN WE decide if we want a marriage._
> 
> But, he is not going to accept that. You know that. The book DOES explain this.. a full CHAPTER on it in fact.
> 
> He doesn't want to acknowledge that trust must be repaired FIRST before you can repair a marriage.
> 
> You have made mistakes in the marriage as has he, but HE violated trust at the deepest level and won't even own it yet.
> 
> He has to repair that or you can't move a muscle. That's just a fact.
> 
> But he wont' hear it I am sure. Gas-lighting left and right.
> 
> Did you give him the book?
> 
> You really just have to give him the book and then back off. If you start to get into it during the book exchange he will never touch the book.
> 
> Just hand him the book and tell him he needs to read that first... That's all you can say. If you say more that he's going to use t he book exchange as a springboard for a marriage tug of war like he's already foreshadowing here in his message.
> 
> Just hand him the book and get OUT of the conversation. Don't let him threaten you or bully you. If he throws a tantrum just exit the room.
> 
> When he acts like an adult THEN and ONLY then, engage.


-------------


NOOOO!!!! H isn’t in counseling, I am. lol Surely you don't think he would be exhibit these sort of behaviors while IN counseling 
( then again yeah he probably would.)

He previously told me he doesn't need it...but now has only recently agreed to go supposedly since now willing to “do anything... 

I haven't given him the book, he is not here till later this week so will give it to him then. Believe me, I have NO problem with NOT engaging him...


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> ------------------------
> 
> This will probably seem ridiculous to you guys but I never realized the parent/child dynamics of our marriage until now. But with everything I have done and his actions the counselor, family friends, you guys are pointing things out and I’m like, yeah it appears I am mothering… Which is weird because I’m not even maternal in the natural sense.


It is not ridiculous. It is how people operate. If you had known that, you would have done something about it. When we believe something that is wrong, how do we know that what we believe is wrong until it is made clear to us in some way?
I understand what you are saying about forgiveness. I am a very forgiving person and am quick to forgive, but that does not mean it goes away. It means I won’t retaliate or become vindictive. It means that I will let it go and not become bitter. However, it does not mean that things will go back to where they were before the bad thing happened. I will learn and grow from that and will alter how I relate to that person based on what they have revealed.
I understand that people do not come out of their dysfunction until they have a reason to, but that does not mean that your husband will be stuck in this immaturity forever. He can make a decision to change. He has not matured properly, but he can begin maturing again at any moment that he decides to do so. I have actually seen this happen in numerous people who made a conscious decision to change and to grow and they do. One that stand out in my mind is my grandmother. She was in an oppressive marriage to my grandfather. She was in her last 60’s when he died. Within a couple of years, she blossomed and I watched her continue to grow until she died at 95 years old. Seriously, it was amazing to watch.
This has happened to many people. They recognize that they have a problem and that they need to grow and change, so they do. 
Your husband is believing the lie that it is okay and even helpful to punish someone who he is upset with, rather than to work with that person to resolve the problem. When he wants to get your attention, he goes to dating sites and thinks that will get your attention. What he fails to understand is that his behavior drives you further away. He is being hurtful. That kind of thinking has got to stop if you are ever to be able to trust him. He has an entitlement mentality that he deserves something and if he doesn’t get it, he can punish you. That is hateful. It is not mature and it is not loving. That is something that has to be addressed.
If he recognizes it and is willing to change his thinking, you two have a chance. If he doesn’t, this will never end. He will always think that he has a right to punish you if you don’t do what he wants. Really drive this point in when speaking to him, but let him know that you believe he is able to change that and to do what is right.


arandomlady said:


> ---------------------------
> oh man that was crazy, sadly I could see h's viewpoint in some of that maniacs comments. I cant help to reflect back on things and try to pinpoint how this happened. I created a monster


His behavior is not your fault. He is a grown man and is responsible for how he is. While I do believe that another person can make us feel bad by their bad behavior, it doesn’t follow that our responses are anyone’s responsibility except our own.



arandomlady said:


> ------------------------
> I haven't even gotten into the sexual elements of marriage. I'm sure shed additional light on the situation.
> 
> Generally like that guy on the show, the idea that my lack of sexual prowess, desire, etc is why he have so many problems. I always disagreed with him on this. The issue is that because he's so into porn, perhaps my style doesn't equate to that of paid porn actresses.
> 
> He would actually show me clips and be like I want you to do that... ok I am not a prude by any stretch of the imagination but the whole focus with the kind of acts he wanted he to allow was based on him being gratified while to me I am being demeaned in the act.
> 
> There was always this prevailing sense I felt from that I wasn't up to snuff with the standards of what wives do sexually. This is really hurtful as I was virgin when me so its like he uses that against me in the bedroom. I had really come a long way in a short tie at the very beginning in that department because I had wanted to explore that side of me and really be desirable for him
> 
> No I hadnt talked to his ex they were estranged and he stated that she cheated on him with his navy mates suspect one of his daughters is actually is. I'm not sure if I mentioned this but he recently told me that I was the o/w and he left his then gf at the time for me... I cant believe this as he never said this before. I almost thing he is saying so I will have sympathy for the ow or something...


This is similar to his idea that he can punish you if you don’t do what he wants. He has an entitlement complex. He thinks he is entitled to certain things, when he isn’t. In fact, his demanding attitude does not bring deeper relationship, it drives you away. He is hurtful and selfish. This has to be addressed.
Pornography turns people into objects of pleasure. You are not a blow up doll. You are a wife who needs to be loved and cared for. When he wants you to act like a porn queen, he is not honoring you. He needs to grasp this in order to be a good husband.


arandomlady said:


> I just cant understand why he has chosen to be so destructive. he would always say he was afraid I would him and find someone better while looks like he was trying to avoid that by being preemptive.


My guess is that he sees you as the destructive one, because you are not doing what he wants. He then thinks that punishing you will bring you back into line. He doesn’t realize that it only hurts you and drives you away. He has to own his stuff.



arandomlady said:


> I just feel like I should have known better. How could I let this happen for so long...


This happens in relationships all the time. You really could not have known. Don’t beat yourself up. 



arandomlady said:


> I sure hope that one day I can give love again, ite seems impossible now. I would too busy looking for indicators and various pitfalls to not end up back here in another few years.
> 
> I'm am devastated, I put on a good face but its so hurtful and personal this betrayal and the ow coming here. I hope you are right about being able to get over this thing. I jus want to feel normal again


Yes, you can love again. Of course you are devastated. This is a devastating situation. The man you loved is not who you thought he was. Your relationship is not what you thought it was. It is a weird and terrible thing to suddenly realize that the way you saw the relationship and they way he saw it were entirely different.



arandomlady said:


> ------------
> 
> I am glad you guys have confidence in me it helps to be encouraged. I found out that my dad has been telling other family members that he is worried about my mental state and questioning what I am going to do like I'm hopeless or something. It demoralizing because I have never demonstrated that I am not a capable woman in any aspect of my life...luckily my older sister has come to my defense on this.


Being emotional and hurt is not the same as being mentally unstable.


----------



## arandomlady

Being emotional and hurt is not the same as being mentally unstable.[/QUOTE]

-------------
You have said a lot of meaningful things here. It took h’s affair and aftermath to put the brakes on the marriage and really force me to look at myself and what I want out of life. Honestly, I went along to get long and lost momentum to improve or even try because I probably was unhappy and gave up.

When I really assess the situation without blinders, I find that I am honest with myself I am not willing to take anymore time trying to fit a square peg in round hole. I have been with the same man most of my adult life and just now realizing it was probably never a healthy relationship. I still cant believe this.

With the things he is saying and doing NOW, I don’t think h gets it, nor does he want to. I am just rambling here but I need to say it, write it to confirm the fact -I don’t want to be married anymore-. I have been fighting that feeling because I love him and probably also dependent on the relationship.

I am 35 years old and I don’t want to be waiting anymore on someone else’s timeline on when HE might do the right thing because he may never get or maybe he might in 15 years. Now that I have all this information and these events, anything that happens now is up to me. I am responsible for the choices I’ve made and I do not want to hold on when its over.

I will take the risk to go it alone rather than live like this and its not something I ever considered. I am scared but I feel calm that it’s the right choice. Now I just need the opportunity to follow suit since I am coming to terms with what I will ultimately do.


----------



## Allen_A

Until your husband starts owning his behavior and repairing himself you two aren't going to get anywhere.

And right now and for the longest time all he seems interested in doing is worrying about what everyone else is doing. He wants to fix everyone on the planet other than himself.

This is common behavior in cheating spouses. I don't know what's going on :

a. their own issues are too daunting for them
b. they are actually blind to how they contaminate the situation
c. they just believe their spouse is more of a contaminant to the situation than they are
d. it's too painful to look inward

Maybe all of the above.

But very often with cheating spouses they will look everywhere and point at everyone except in the damn mirror.


----------



## vi_bride04

Allen_A said:


> Until your husband starts owning his behavior and repairing himself you two aren't going to get anywhere.
> 
> And right now and for the longest time all he seems interested in doing is worrying about what everyone else is doing. He wants to fix everyone on the planet other than himself.
> 
> This is common behavior in cheating spouses. I don't know what's going on :
> 
> a. their own issues are too daunting for them
> b. they are actually blind to how they contaminate the situation
> c. they just believe their spouse is more of a contaminant to the situation than they are
> d. it's too painful to look inward
> 
> Maybe all of the above.
> 
> But very often with cheating spouses they will look everywhere and point at everyone except in the damn mirror.


Its never their fault. Never. 

It comes down to integrity and personal responsibility. Cheaters, especially serial cheaters have neither. And I honestly don't think serial cheaters can be fixed.


----------



## Cynthia

Do you have a regular, personal time in the Bible and prayer? This can give you strength and help you to see things more clearly, as you let the Holy Spirit speak to your heart. You are greatly loved. This whole circumstance has not taken away from your purpose and your meaning in life. Your eyes are being opened and you are seeing things more clearly. In the future, you will be able to help others because of what you have learned. You will enter new relationships with greater understanding and wisdom as well.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Until your husband starts owning his behavior and repairing himself you two aren't going to get anywhere.
> 
> And right now and for the longest time all he seems interested in doing is worrying about what everyone else is doing. He wants to fix everyone on the planet other than himself.
> 
> This is common behavior in cheating spouses. I don't know what's going on :
> 
> a. their own issues are too daunting for them
> b. they are actually blind to how they contaminate the situation
> c. they just believe their spouse is more of a contaminant to the situation than they are
> d. it's too painful to look inward
> 
> Maybe all of the above.
> 
> But very often with cheating spouses they will look everywhere and point at everyone except in the damn mirror.


---------------------------

If I had to guess for H, will go with B and C so I don't expect to ever get anywhere. H will only say he was unappreciated and the things I did so yeah no self reflection whatsoever which is why again no remorse or curiosity of what the hell is HIS contribution to the problem .


----------



## arandomlady

vi_bride04 said:


> Its never their fault. Never.
> 
> It comes down to integrity and personal responsibility. Cheaters, especially serial cheaters have neither. And I honestly don't think serial cheaters can be fixed.


------------------
Well there isn't any since of that in this case which is maddening. Do you think h is a serial cheater? I never considered that but since I didn't know he was cheating this time that could be the case. What is your flash take on what you have read about my story?


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> Do you have a regular, personal time in the Bible and prayer? This can give you strength and help you to see things more clearly, as you let the Holy Spirit speak to your heart. You are greatly loved. This whole circumstance has not taken away from your purpose and your meaning in life. Your eyes are being opened and you are seeing things more clearly. In the future, you will be able to help others because of what you have learned. You will enter new relationships with greater understanding and wisdom as well.


---------------
Weekly for reading and daily for prayer/meditation/ self reflection and yes asking God for guidance. What is strange is that I have had some close calls where I could have been hurt or hurt someone and I don't think its a coincidence. I have been shocked back to focus on what is really important. 

I have been setting up goals in this area taking extra time to learn what is my purpose and what I am supposed to do. I need to be clear headed and have the inner voice heard as I have not been in tuned as I should be over the years.

There are many lessons that have presented themselves in this horrible event in my life. I sure there will be more before this is over and will treat this as a learning experience in instead of an epic waste of time


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> ---------------
> Weekly for reading and daily for prayer/meditation/ self reflection and yes asking God for guidance. What is strange is that I have had some close calls where I could have been hurt or hurt someone and I don't think its a coincidence. I have been shocked back to focus on what is really important.
> 
> I have been setting up goals in this area taking extra time to learn what is my purpose and what I am supposed to do. I need to be clear headed and have the inner voice heard as I have not been in tuned as I should be over the years.
> 
> There are many lessons that have presented themselves in this horrible event in my life. I sure there will be more before this is over and will treat this as a learning experience in instead of an epic waste of time


Your spiritual life impacts all other parts of your life. I find that the time I spend in the Bible and prayer seems to help me accomplish more and to be better focused. I never regret it.
This really is terrible how your husband is treating you, but you are doing well in not accepting his criticism of you. There is no excuse for his behavior. Hugs to you.


----------



## arandomlady

Diary update: “ When will we be at peace”… is what h asks me after being home for a 1 ½ days and getting like 2 things done from the “to do “ list. He announces to me everytime he is completing an action item like there should be a parade..really?


Not sure who it was that told me I would be angered by his completion of the tasks ( that I specified ), but right on money. Not impressed… AT ALL! I gave him the book he hasn’t read yet sayng he will start it later on wants to “spend time” with me trying to get me to go out and relax again with a night out and hotel saying it doesn’t mean we have to “do anything”can get separate beds… flatly refused saying I’m not confortable with that at all.


Another issue, I just found recent messages to and from the o/w according to phone log. H tells me oh I had told her to stop contacting me… so on and he went back and forth with her. He is now sayng she want to be compensated for the money she spent to come see him while he was out of state…wow. ok I said fwd me the messages. I demanded the messages be fwd to me just to see what he would say, he tells me he would let me see his phone… that was about 3days ago. He hasn’t offered his phone yet…


I wont ask for his phone this is already another blow as far as I’m concerned especially with how I am finding this out instead of him telling me in advance of the o/w contact, I can conclude what the deal is ( there had been none that I could see for awhile and stopped checking) but my gut told me to check just before he came home and Tada!


Anyway my hopes are crossed for a transfer opportunity SOON. Unbelievable how bad I want to GTFOH…


----------



## Cynthia

He seems really to be living in his own world.
I'm glad you are following that gut feeling.


----------



## farsidejunky

Your gut is on point as it has been through this whole process. False "R". Cake eating. 

How much more will you need to see to remove any doubt?


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> He seems really to be living in his own world.
> I'm glad you are following that gut feeling.


-----------------------------
I have prayed to God and that feeling is all I have to go on. H's moods are wildly going from his announcing he is doing everything he can ,to why should he do anything at all if I might leave him anyway... 

No he still hadn't offered the phone though this was a huge issue before he got home. I still cant believe he didn't offer the phone knowing how upset I was when I saw that o/w was emailing him. I actually think she is using some kind of program to text him so it doesn't show on the phone. But because she may be angry at him for who knows what, she is letting her email be visible as the texting email. They have probably been at it the whole time but they are visible now and I'm sure its not a coincidence. 

I refused to mention the phone and I noticed he had it with him the whole time... I will NOT spell anything else out to him. He has gone back to his rental out of state and he continues to tell me he is "following the list"...he asked me about counseling, I told him to do whatever he thinks HE needs.

I really wish he would just stop this charade.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> I refused to mention the phone and I noticed he had it with him the whole time... I will NOT spell anything else out to him. He has gone back to his rental out of state and he continues to tell me he is "following the list"...he asked me about counseling, I told him to do whatever he thinks HE needs.
> 
> I really wish he would just stop this charade.


Bravo.

Just like the ING Direct guy says "save your money."

He's gone, the drama's gone with him.

Enjoy the peace and stability that maturity offers.

He is going to talk up a storm. He thinks you still listen to words rather than action.

His words are just his strategy to get a rise out of you to feed his ego. When YOU get upset, HE feels DESIRED.

He talks a lot, but offers no confidence whatsoever.

He should sell used cars.


----------



## arandomlady

farsidejunky said:


> Your gut is on point as it has been through this whole process. False "R". Cake eating.
> 
> How much more will you need to see to remove any doubt?


Well I don't know about me being on point since I seem to missing the mark with what is really going on with h at times.

We are not in R, though he is swiftly trying to move into that direction by placating me. I'm not sure how much you are following this but I had pretty much made up my mind that I cant remain in the marriage, however, I did have a smidgeon of hope though very remote that we could somehow work on this

Yes, I did think maybe, just maybe, H was turning that corner and would miraculously start doing everything that shows he is truly remorseful before I go ahead and make the move. Now I see that is NOT happening.

This may seem strange but I had literally prayed for direction to on what I should do then I saw that yet another posting has come up for a similar position in a prime location came up which is not usual for that locale as they had just filled another position less than month ago. Hallelujah!! 

Needless to say I applied for transfer and are awaiting testing and interview- it may be long shot since not completely matched and may not get salary I would need plus going against other applicants internal and external but I hope this is my chance!!

This is all at the same time this is when I noticed the messages to and from the o/w. I CANT IGNORE THE SIGNIFIGANCE OF THIS.

So I'm waiting to be tested and interviewed and see where the chips fall. I want to get this so bad I can visualize, taste, smell, and feel myself being there and free of this already. I am sooo nervous!!!


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> Bravo.
> 
> Just like the ING Direct guy says "save your money."
> 
> He's gone, the drama's gone with him.
> 
> Enjoy the peace and stability that maturity offers.
> 
> He is going to talk up a storm. He thinks you still listen to words rather than action.
> 
> His words are just his strategy to get a rise out of you to feed his ego. When YOU get upset, HE feels DESIRED.
> 
> He talks a lot, but offers no confidence whatsoever.
> 
> He should sell used cars.


------------------

It appears that way. I just have to do what I need to independent of his actions which has NOT been the way I have been operating in the marriage I you cant already tell.

You had said before its not about me loving him but him loving me the way I need to loved something like that. He is trying to make me feel guilty with the prospect of me leaving him and never speaking to him/seeing him again because he knows how I roll and that would be the outcome. Once I'm gone, I'm really gone. this is why I was so hesitant to write this off. 

Funny enough, he did try his hand at selling cars at one point. not so good. I don't understand the point of this because I think he had the affair to end the marriage so why not just let it end


----------



## Allen_A

People don't have affairs to end marriages. They have affairs to ESCAPE the confines of married life.

The marriage is always at worst a Plan B, and in some cases, is still Plan A. In many cases the cheating wayward will waffle in between both not knowing what to do from one week to the next.

One week you are Plan A and OW is Plan B, next week you are Plan B, and OW is Plan A. On and on it goes...

And his rotating claims and threats from one week to the next would reflect that's what he's doing as well.

What I had suggested before is that how much you love HIM is irrelevant. What IS relevant is :

a. his ability to maintain an adult maturity level
b. his ability to maintain a long term commitment long term

If he can't do those things, you loving him beyond life and breath does not matter at all now does it?

If you love him like crazy, but he insists on keeping up this merry go round of Plan A, B, and C business then your feelings dont matter. It's over.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> People don't have affairs to end marriages. They have affairs to ESCAPE the confines of married life.
> 
> The marriage is always at worst a Plan B, and in some cases, is still Plan A. In many cases the cheating wayward will waffle in between both not knowing what to do from one week to the next.
> 
> One week you are Plan A and OW is Plan B, next week you are Plan B, and OW is Plan A. On and on it goes...
> 
> And his rotating claims and threats from one week to the next would reflect that's what he's doing as well.
> 
> What I had suggested before is that how much you love HIM is irrelevant. What IS relevant is :
> 
> a. his ability to maintain an adult maturity level
> b. his ability to maintain a long term commitment long term
> 
> If he can't do those things, you loving him beyond life and breath does not matter at all now does it?
> 
> If you love him like crazy, but he insists on keeping up this merry go round of Plan A, B, and C business then your feelings dont matter. It's over.


----------------

I thought it was because of how he went about it, almost like he WANTED me to find out... He would also say we are not compatible, he has been unhappy for years, etc, just about everything stopping short of ILYBNILWY. 

Also he uses the fact that I don't want kids as a major issue so I just assumed he did this as a catalyst to end the marriage because I would not have initiated it otherwise. But as others say. " its neither here nor there... at this point" I guess I am just trying to make sense of it which I logically know is impossible but my heart wants the WHY?

Yes the claims and threats do escalate but I think I know the deal now that I know financially what he is after which for me is really KEY for the reasons I talked about..

You keep coming back to the maturity and I cannot argue that is definitely deficient , plus my naiveté fuels it more... and its a 
vicious cycle I'm trying to stop cold

The love thing for me is huge because he was first everything and I guess I have a fear I will never love anyone again, be a sad bitter woman as my dad says especially since I don't and wont have children. Yes I get I cant love him into the husband he needs to be, hurts so bad to realize this.

Despite knowing what needs to happen, I cant lie to you guys, I scared...I am not the person I was when we met and part of me is concerned about the person I've become and who will I attract now? Age is not on my side anymore, and I need to get to understanding and navigating a scene I have not been apart of in 15 years..


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> ----------------
> 
> I thought it was because of how he went about it, almost like he WANTED me to find out... He would also say we are not compatible, he has been unhappy for years, etc, just about everything stopping short of ILYBNILWY.
> 
> Also he uses the fact that I don't want kids as a major issue so I just assumed he did this as a catalyst to end the marriage because I would not have initiated it otherwise. But as others say. " its neither here nor there... at this point" I guess I am just trying to make sense of it which I logically know is impossible but my heart wants the WHY?


It's all just SPIN.

You IGNORE spin.

You observe what he's doing.

He is going to spin week by week until HE gets HIS crap together. YOU have to learn to IGNORE spin.

SPIN is just an indication of how MESSED UP HIS THINKING is right now.. it changes by the phases of the moon like a four year old.

IGNORE the SPIN.

YOU cannot take ANYTHING he SAYS seriously. You take what he DOES seriously.

And right now what he's DOING is nothing he hasn't been doing for a long long time. He's not changed action wise.

He's working.
He's trolling dating sites
He's making threats.
He's paying bills.
He's coming and going.

What's different?


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> It's all just SPIN.
> 
> You IGNORE spin.
> 
> You observe what he's doing.
> 
> He is going to spin week by week until HE gets HIS crap together. YOU have to learn to IGNORE spin.
> 
> SPIN is just an indication of how MESSED UP HIS THINKING is right now.. it changes by the phases of the moon like a four year old.
> 
> IGNORE the SPIN.
> 
> YOU cannot take ANYTHING he SAYS seriously. You take what he DOES seriously.
> 
> And right now what he's DOING is nothing he hasn't been doing for a long long time. He's not changed action wise.
> 
> He's working.
> He's trolling dating sites
> He's making threats.
> He's paying bills.
> He's coming and going.
> 
> What's different?


-----------------
sadly the only thing that's happening is that he is reluctantly doing the list which is quid pro quo for me letting up and moving towards R. 

I am thinking now I should not have specified what I wanted at all but wanted to at least try something. He took the book with him so I will ask about that but 'm not even sure if matters anyway.

I may need to go on over to the divorce thread since its seems inevitable at this point. I am so sad about this


----------



## Cynthia

Don't be afraid. Put your trust fully in the Lord and He will direct you. He will meet your needs and help you through this. Seek His will rather than a particular outcome and keep focused on drawing near to Him. He will give you all the power, strength and peace you need.
You are feeling undesirable, because of what your husband has done - not because of who you are or what you have become.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> Don't be afraid. Put your trust fully in the Lord and He will direct you. He will meet your needs and help you through this. Seek His will rather than a particular outcome and keep focused on drawing near to Him. He will give you all the power, strength and peace you need.
> You are feeling undesirable, because of what your husband has done - not because of who you are or what you have become.


--------------------------------

I have been now more than ever though not particularly religious and have definitely benefited and have general beliefs in that area. Its a change with how I had been operating and at this point it feels like it is the hand of God with all the strangeness of certain things that are happening. I am very blessed despite what happened, I never forget that no matter what.

I know logically that have to be desirable to someone on earth other than H, and obviously I'm not ready to go there, but its a concern for the long term, especially with the kind of move I want to make. With how long I have been out of commission, I am wondering how am I going to manage not necessary cosmically like God guiding me to someone or vice versa but just like day to day life sort of thing.

One good thing is I am getting used to the loneliness I expect to feel once it happens. I am pretty involved with different things but its not quite real since I have the regular visits when H comes home. 

If I get this transfer, its a real game changer. I will really have to lean on God because I wont have anyone remotely nearby and the reason for this is I want to rebuild completely and step out of the ordinary plus the locale is irresistible. I am trying to become more spiritual and address things in that light along with other considerations for a balanced approach.


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> -----------------
> sadly the only thing that's happening is that he is reluctantly doing the list which is quid pro quo for me letting up and moving towards R.
> 
> I am thinking now I should not have specified what I wanted at all but wanted to at least try something. He took the book with him so I will ask about that but 'm not even sure if matters anyway.
> 
> I may need to go on over to the divorce thread since its seems inevitable at this point. I am so sad about this


The repair work is actually spelled out quite well in the book itself.

Don't hold your breath for him to read it.


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> --------------------------------
> 
> I have been now more than ever though not particularly religious and have definitely benefited and have general beliefs in that area. Its a change with how I had been operating and at this point it feels like it is the hand of God with all the strangeness of certain things that are happening. I am very blessed despite what happened, I never forget that no matter what.
> 
> I know logically that have to be desirable to someone on earth other than H, and obviously I'm not ready to go there, but its a concern for the long term, especially with the kind of move I want to make. With how long I have been out of commission, I am wondering how am I going to manage not necessary cosmically like God guiding me to someone or vice versa but just like day to day life sort of thing.
> 
> One good thing is I am getting used to the loneliness I expect to feel once it happens. I am pretty involved with different things but its not quite real since I have the regular visits when H comes home.
> 
> If I get this transfer, its a real game changer. I will really have to lean on God because I wont have anyone remotely nearby and the reason for this is I want to rebuild completely and step out of the ordinary plus the locale is irresistible. I am trying to become more spiritual and address things in that light along with other considerations for a balanced approach.


It's really about your relationship with the Lord rather than trying to be a certain way. The closer I get to Him, the more of who I am created to be comes out and the happier I am with myself. It is comforting to me that He has a plan and He knows my future and is there to provide all I need, even emotionally through times of real trouble, like what you are going through now.
There will come a time when you have healed sufficiently from this betrayal that you will be ready for a new relationship - one that will be healthy and affirming.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> The repair work is actually spelled out quite well in the book itself.
> 
> Don't hold your breath for him to read it.


--------------

Funny you should say that, he just text me saying I should read the book as well and he wants me to ask him anything about it so far... saying its keeping his attention... whatever i'll bite , I'll ask him how it applies to this situation and HIM- I'll see what he learned then...


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> It's really about your relationship with the Lord rather than trying to be a certain way. The closer I get to Him, the more of who I am created to be comes out and the happier I am with myself. It is comforting to me that He has a plan and He knows my future and is there to provide all I need, even emotionally through times of real trouble, like what you are going through now.
> There will come a time when you have healed sufficiently from this betrayal that you will be ready for a new relationship - one that will be healthy and affirming.


-------------
I appreciate that, I think the hard part is really surrendering you know. I sure hope so, H is trying to give the impression he is really trying and its upsetting to me because I know the deal. 

He is actually wanting to discuss the just friends book now when he hasn't shown me the messages he just got days ago from the o/w... exasperated. 


I pray and meditate on how to deal with this daily without completely becoming unhinged. I can't go nuclear on h while he is paying the bills because I wont leave until I can transfer out... UGH!!!!


----------



## arandomlady

oh this gets better and better... h tells me he took the EA quiz and gee golly wiz he WAS having an ea with the o/w

or and the windows wall thing.. turns out she takes up for him and supports his ideas where as I don't and says I make him feel like an idiot so he got to prefer talking to her instead of me...brilliant

he managers to berate me while reading a book on infidelity...priceless you cant make stuff like this up


----------



## Cynthia

True is stranger than fiction.


----------



## farsidejunky

ARL:

I was a late - comer from a couple of weeks back and I have read the whole thread. 

Even 95/5 towards divorce means you are open to reconciliation. This also means you have hope in him, albeit very little, or it would be 100/0.

At this point I know you are working him for the financials, but at what expense? To be Charlie Brown and the football? I am willing to bet that even that 5% hope hurts like h*** when he not - so - surprisingly disappoints again... And again...

What price is worth your emotional well being?


----------



## Cynthia

farsidejunky said:


> ARL:
> 
> I was a late - comer from a couple of weeks back and I have read the whole thread.
> 
> Even 95/5 towards divorce means you are open to reconciliation. This also means you have hope in him, albeit very little, or it would be 100/0.
> 
> At this point I know you are working him for the financials, but at what expense? To be Charlie Brown and the football? I am willing to bet that even that 5% hope hurts like h*** when he not - so - surprisingly disappoints again... And again...
> 
> What price is worth your emotional well being?


There is more to emotional well being than marriage. There is also shelter and finances to consider in her emotional state.


----------



## arandomlady

farsidejunky said:


> ARL:
> 
> I was a late - comer from a couple of weeks back and I have read the whole thread.
> 
> Even 95/5 towards divorce means you are open to reconciliation. This also means you have hope in him, albeit very little, or it would be 100/0.
> 
> At this point I know you are working him for the financials, but at what expense? To be Charlie Brown and the football? I am willing to bet that even that 5% hope hurts like h*** when he not - so - surprisingly disappoints again... And again...
> 
> What price is worth your emotional well being?


------------------------

For what I have lost already, I don’t want to also totally be on the losing end financially too. I guess the price is not high enough for me to move out and pay rent /additional expenses prior to getting the transfer… trying to work the angle to some kind of an advantage here. I put a lot into the marriage in a lot of ways and now feels like I am losing out just as the dividends are coming in and its hard pill to swallow.

Whats to my benefit are a few things -H is gone way more than he is here and I have not resumed the marriage so its not like I’m in R then having setbacks. There hasn’t been a marriage since suspicion of the affair. I never unpaused it. Plus I wasn’t previously ready to make the call on what I was going to do yet. I needed to assess if this is something that was repairable or not and its not a call I could make quickly. Now I have made up my mind just wanting to at the best opportune time for me to go. 

I am not going to lie, being in this situation is terrible as it is so I don’t think the added issues of h placating me and trying to drag me to r outweighs the fact that I need continue saving a lot of money is really adding anything overly unbearable to the already f’d up scenario. The attempts now are kind of funny to me at this point although it bugs me that he thinks I’m so easily swayed…

I am sure H would be doing this if I were living here or anywhere (probably with more gusto if I wasn’t here) he really doesn’t think I’ll leave I’m not sure if that is clear from what I’m trying to impart here. When I do leave, I expect the efforts may be ramped up as others have said, maybe not. By then I wont care. See in my mind H is really not my h anyway, its like I am in a bad movie just shaking my head at the poor script and acting.

To me the touch of Hope doesn’t cost me anything because I will always be hopeful in the face of adversity, but this doesn’t mean I will be gullible or foolish. I never said I believed h nor do I think h’s words equal actions. If I were undecided, compartmentalizing all of this would be a hell of lot more difficult but since my mind is made up, not so much.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> There is more to emotional well being than marriage. There is also shelter and finances to consider in her emotional state.


---------------
THIS-Others are in far worse circumstances than I'm in so I am actually glad this is all I'm dealing with. I am here alone most of the time to really process this and save the money I need to be good for the long term...I want to leave in the best possible shape I can financially so that wont be yet another concern to worry about


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> oh this gets better and better... h tells me he took the EA quiz and gee golly wiz he WAS having an ea with the o/w
> 
> or and the windows wall thing.. turns out she takes up for him and supports his ideas where as I don't and says I make him feel like an idiot so he got to prefer talking to her instead of me...brilliant
> 
> he managers to berate me while reading a book on infidelity...priceless you cant make stuff like this up


If nothing else the book is getting him to expose his character to you in the light of day so you can make an informed decision.

How is his maturity looking now?

Better, worse? No change?


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> If nothing else the book is getting him to expose his character to you in the light of day so you can make an informed decision.
> 
> How is his maturity looking now?
> 
> Better, worse? No change?


___________________________

Its too early to tell but I'm so annoyed with the way he seems to feel justified about how he feels and acted because of how its illustrated in the book almost like it makes sense. he is all like- see it says here on pg so and so this and I felt just like that... and she made me feel this way and that way...

The details that are unraveling from this are very damaging and because he thinks this is being helpful to me ( because he is trying to use this as an approach to R) its really coming on strong, too strong. its having the opposite effect than what he is intending. Bad for him, good for me.

He is also using it to point out the friendships I had with male coworkers and trying to say it was leading down the wrong path but just didn't for whatever reason... the major difference being my friendships were never secret and plus we were friends with them as a couple (the male coworker and wife) 

I explained to him that his o/w ( friend) was never mentioned to me out of all the people he talked about at work. she is single ahem excuse me has a fiancé out of state ( eye roll). 

What he is missing is the fact that he was LOOOKING for an opportunity and from what he describes she was offering one...
Yes the character part of this is damming because he seems to operate or a different set or morals and values than I imagined.


----------



## Cynthia

You are getting a very clear picture of what is really going on. That's good. Sometimes it takes years to understand and some people never do. This is a blessing, but a difficult one.


----------



## bkaydezz

arandomlady said:


> Hey everyone-I am giving an update on a post I put in about a month ago. The situation has escalated. The long and short of it . same old same suspected the husband was having an affair by a lot of text unexplained atm withdrawals and lying about whereabouts and time off work yada yada yada. Did the confront he denied. I did the plan b no contact started individual counseling. No attempts to reconcile. He lives out of town for work so already technically separated. I think the affair has been going on for about 6-8 months but I am just become aware.
> 
> Even after the confrontation he still continued to contact her. I did not contact him. on a trip home this weekend through down the gauntlet and with the her or me and if its her then this is what needs to happen no divorce papers but drafted propsals... he refused to admit. the counselor said that before I can do that I have to be sure its is indeed an affair and to contact the other party to see what they say. I did they were shocked did not deny on the call just stammered ad hung up on me. then I texted apologizing if they felt ambushed but just wanted to know and that I don't have anything against her. No response but texting still occurred between her and my husband...
> 
> So my husband was shocked by my call and text to her because I am not the type to confront. I told him we are not married as long as this contact is going on. he ultimately ended with her last night and was pretty definitive as I approved the text before he sent it then he agreed to change his number
> 
> It didn't end there, the next morning she had been texting him and he had not responded. so she began threatening him, she ultimately showed up at my house 8am this morning!! and he actually let her in. Meanwhile I have called the police and the women is yelling for me to down and meet her!!! in my home!! She is making all kinds of threats saying where she is from who she knows etc... I refused to engage her and remained on the 3rd level of my home while she is at the front door on 1st level. It was surreal...im on the phone with dispatch telling them and they were like he let her in??? Granted she probably threatened to break the glass inlet of the door or something but I would have rather that so she could have been arrested...
> 
> So police say there is nothing I can do until she actually does a crime...meanwhile the husband is going back to work out of state and this person lives in town where I am!!! I was besides myself with anger, hurt and shame. its as if the woman wanted to see me so she could determine if he was proper in choosing me, wife of nearly 12 years over her fling for a 6mos or so. (probably my projection of the situation ) I did give her the satisfaction of my presence.
> 
> Anyway only the police he and she know about this as I am mortified. My community is probably thinking yeah another domestic situation... never called the police in my life... I feel trapped...


Woo hoo!!! Satisfaction of your presence. I bet it got that betch rollin. :smthumbup:

Anywho, I am sorry, sorry, sorry, you were trapped in your own home. I cant imagine how hard that was for you to deal with! I am so glad she seen what you had, where you lived, and what you looked like though. I know that sounds bad. At least she knows she cant top that!! I hope you feel better.


----------



## arandomlady

bkaydezz said:


> Woo hoo!!! Satisfaction of your presence. I bet it got that betch rollin. :smthumbup:
> Anywho, I am sorry, sorry, sorry, you were trapped in your own home. I cant imagine how hard that was for you to deal with! I am so glad she seen what you had, where you lived, and what you looked like though. I know that sounds bad. At least she knows she cant top that!! I hope you feel better.


****************

Oops that should have read I did NOT give her the satisfaction... 

However, there is a picture of me that leads to the upstairs area that people always comment on when they come here saying its cool I'm in costume dolled up its a haunting photo like eyes following. you cant miss it when you come in and look up

It was never her the rage was against its H because he let her in


----------



## bkaydezz

arandomlady said:


> ****************
> 
> Oops that should have read I did NOT give her the satisfaction...
> 
> However, there is a picture of me that leads to the upstairs area that people always comment on when they come here saying its cool I'm in costume dolled up its a haunting photo like eyes following. you cant miss it when you come in and look up
> 
> It was never her the rage was against its H because he let her in


Well, you are very tolerable of such distraction and evil. Thumbs up either way. :smthumbup:
I still wish it hadn't happened to you.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> You are getting a very clear picture of what is really going on. That's good. Sometimes it takes years to understand and some people never do. This is a blessing, but a difficult one.


--------------
To read his descriptions ( he prefers to text) of the affair narrative I almost get the feeling he revels in it. like a romanace novel or something.

The way he talks about o/w to me its like he wants me to model that behavior as if to say if you do like she did I would happy...granted it could be my projection of what I getting from him because I know how he thinks-- this is very peculiar indeed.


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> --------------
> To read his descriptions ( he prefers to text) of the affair narrative I almost get the feeling he revels in it. like a romanace novel or something.
> 
> The way he talks about o/w to me its like he wants me to model that behavior as if to say if you do like she did I would happy...granted it could be my projection of what I getting from him because I know how he thinks-- this is very peculiar indeed.


Well that's disturbing and annoying. Have you told him that is your view of his comments and it bothers you?


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> Well that's disturbing and annoying. Have you told him that is your view of his comments and it bothers you?


------------------

No I want the unvarnished truth. H is an all or nothing guy. He will either spill ALL the beans or NONE... he doesn't finesse things. If I call foul then I wont get to know what the hell happened...

It may seem absurd to want to know since I am ultimately leaving anyway. Still, this helps me. I haven't encountered anything like this with him before in the prior 11 years.

I will what I learn from this to the next person. He has no idea.


----------



## Catherine602

Did he ever show you the communications from the OW? He won't. But he holds out a tiny bit of bait to suck you in. He knows you and he knows how badly you want him. He doses not need to do much and you fill in the rest. 

Here you are analyzing what he means when he is telling you to be the other woman. What an insult. He humiliates you and then tells you what you need to do to get him back??

You are supporting him by talking about his fictions. He is looking for a caretaker and you are looking for a husband. He is getting what he needs at lest. He has at lest two woman at his beck and call. He must feel like quite the man. 

He is unrepentant and giving you nothing. And you expect nothing. Ask him to be totally transparent or don't talk. The best thing to do is to go NC except for business. You will just get sucked back in if you keep talking to him about the relationship.


----------



## arandomlady

Catherine602 said:


> Did he ever show you the communications from the OW? He won't. But he holds out a tiny bit of bait to suck you in. He knows you and he knows how badly you want him. He doses not need to do much and you fill in the rest.
> 
> Here you are analyzing what he means when he is telling you to be the other woman. What an insult. He humiliates you and then tells you what you need to do to get him back??
> 
> You are supporting him by talking about his fictions. He is looking for a caretaker and you are looking for a husband. He is getting what he needs at lest. He has at lest two woman at his beck and call. He must feel like quite the man.
> 
> He is unrepentant and giving you nothing. And you expect nothing. Ask him to be totally transparent or don't talk. The best thing to do is to go NC except for business. You will just get sucked back in if you keep talking to him about the relationship.


------------------

I think there is a saying about taking offense to something that comes to mind... like there can be no offense unless it is taken- someone will correct this.. 

I am not the same the woman at the beginning of the thread. I gave him the book, he is talking about it and how it applies to him. I don't see anything sucking me in with letting him talk. we are not discussing US there is no US.

I have already determined I am leaving him. However, I do want to know where his head was at. Of course he is going to tell me how he wants me to be because he thinks there is still a chance... there isn't.

It helps me to see these things because I can really know where is coming from. It solidifies my decision to leave even more to see what he is about...


----------



## arandomlady

Catherine602 said:


> Did he ever show you the communications from the OW?
> ---------------
> 
> Oh I missed that. No. I am not going to ask again. When I finally tell him after I leave, I will reference that fact because he will say he did everything I wanted...


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> --------------
> To read his descriptions ( he prefers to text) of the affair narrative I almost get the feeling he revels in it. like a romanace novel or something.
> 
> The way he talks about o/w to me its like he wants me to model that behavior as if to say if you do like she did I would happy...granted it could be my projection of what I getting from him because I know how he thinks-- this is very peculiar indeed.


It's quite common.

The thing is, he doesn't get that his fantasy life was supported and expensed by yourself.

Those kinds of fantasy relationships cannot exist in reality.

He is seriously deluded if he thinks he can find that in a marriage.

Clearly he's not reading the book you gave him. Glass makes that clear in the first few chapters.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> It's quite common.
> 
> The thing is, he doesn't get that his fantasy life was supported and expensed by yourself.
> 
> Those kinds of fantasy relationships cannot exist in reality.
> 
> He is seriously deluded if he thinks he can find that in a marriage.
> 
> Clearly he's not reading the book you gave him. Glass makes that clear in the first few chapters.


_______________

No he clearly isn't there yet. he just at the part in very beginning when its talking about the scenarios of how affairs began at work. he is elaborating on that part and taking it to the next level with what the o/w is like...


----------



## Allen_A

arandomlady said:


> ___________________________
> 
> Its too early to tell but I'm so annoyed with the way he seems to feel justified about how he feels and acted because of how its illustrated in the book almost like it makes sense. he is all like- see it says here on pg so and so this and I felt just like that... and she made me feel this way and that way...
> 
> ...
> 
> Yes the character part of this is damming because he seems to operate or a different set or morals and values than I imagined.


By the sounds of it he's only reading the early part of the text that characterizes the infidelity during secrecy.

There is a discovery section, a section detailing the damage he's done, and sections on how to repair that (you likely saw that already if you have a copy).

SO, he's just reading the fun, secret part and identifying with it.

And ya, of course, rather than taking ownership, he's using it to criticize your behavior with your male co-workers.

He almost sounds narcissistic.


----------



## Allen_A

The thing is, he's not supposed to take pride in identifying with it.. it sounds like he's reading it like some romance novel.

Well, hopefully he keeps on going to get to the section that details all the damage that's done. I imagine he will just gloss over that.

He uses the text to validate himself, and to vilify everyone else. What a piece of work.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> By the sounds of it he's only reading the early part of the text that characterizes the infidelity during secrecy.
> 
> There is a discovery section, a section detailing the damage he's done, and sections on how to repair that (you likely saw that already if you have a copy).
> 
> SO, he's just reading the fun, secret part and identifying with it.
> 
> And ya, of course, rather than taking ownership, he's using it to criticize your behavior with your male co-workers.
> 
> He almost sounds narcissistic.





Allen_A said:


> The thing is, he's not supposed to take pride in identifying with it.. it sounds like he's reading it like some romance novel.
> 
> Well, hopefully he keeps on going to get to the section that details all the damage that's done. I imagine he will just gloss over that.
> 
> He uses the text to validate himself, and to vilify everyone else. What a piece of work.


------------


He could be. Yes I have an electronic copy so I know exactly at what part he is in because he is referencing page #s. He doesn’t realize that how it comes off, he cant possibly. That’s whats happening now with the text because he is identifying with the scenario. He is going into all kinds of details in his “discussions”.

I am simply going along with the convo. I’m sure when he gets to the rough stuff there won’t be any talk about that. I find it interesting he gets right to sex like he cant wait to tell me what she does in that area…like that’s even relevant. Again this helps me realize wh I need to move on because I can see for myself how he is NOT the man for me anymore…

If I could show you what he says to me, you all would have a conniption its so absurd and outrageously ridiculous and immature


----------



## Cynthia

Oh wow, I'm sorry. That sounds terrible. Yuck. You can tell him you are upset by it and don't want to know about his sex life with the b*tch. Just wow.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> Oh wow, I'm sorry. That sounds terrible. Yuck. You can tell him you are upset by it and don't want to know about his sex life with the b*tch. Just wow.


------------

I can be quite detached and clinical when I want to be and he hates it. I just told him stay with facts about the emotional component of the relationship because I don't care about sex acts that can be done by prostitutes, that struck a chord…

I am going to guess that he is trying to manipulate me into hysterical bonding though I don't think he knows what it is. The fact that he thinks I am interested in making this work (i.e. sending the list and book) he probably thinks I am back on the hook or never got off...

Probably thinks he can tell me what the o/w women did and I will go above and beyond to blow his mind and keep him…Thing is, I am not the type to compete like that so why does he think that will work now? 

This is getting easier by the minute...


----------



## Cynthia

Your husband sounds like he is living in an alternate reality and is about to have his bubble burst.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> Your husband sounds like he is living in an alternate reality and is about to have his bubble burst.


------------------------
Sometimes I wonder if it wouldn't just make his day for me to just leave and ask for nothing, its like he is daring me now that he is making more


----------



## arandomlady

So much for the mock learning the H was supposed to be doing... in the midst of me asking him questions about his narrative he got very defensive and started to deflect big time. It basically comes down to me not being there and him getting seduced.. again no ownership.

For me its academic at this point, good to know.

I told him to read further into the book because he hasn't gotten very far for us to continue talking about it as he is just going on about feeling good with o/w and my lack of affection not addressing the fact he made a decision to do the wrong thing nor address consequences of what he did .

He says I'm calling him stupid and is saying he doesn't have to try to make sense of "bs" meaning I guess his actions in the affair. he then went on to stay he is tired of my "robotic ass and that goes for in the bed too so he is done"... now he is just being ridiculous so I text laughed.

Today texts t tell me how he is going to take care of everything and he expects 15% raise then another before year is out like that smooth things over... I congratulated him on his raise and left it that.

Moving forward with the process for job had to do personality/job assessment. I'm hoping my heighten emotion state didn't color my responses. I am telling more people about this feeling better and more sure.

I just hope I get this this gig!! I really need this!


----------



## Cynthia

I hope you get it too, but if you don't, you are going to be okay. Just take it one step at a time and don't be tied to outcome.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> I hope you get it too, but if you don't, you are going to be okay. Just take it one step at a time and don't be tied to outcome.


-------------------------------

I know I shouldn't be tied to outcome but I kinda am. I don't want to move until I can transfer to a place I actually want to live in. this is critical for effort that goes into trying to get hired in another location and obviously the actual move. 

If I don't get this location and there isn't another for me to go to, I am stationary for the time being...

It doesn't hurt me to be stationary as long as h pays the bills and I don't end up in a false R in the meantime ( I already established that I am not moving on with the marriage) he doesn't know I plan to leave and am looking for the transfer...

He will play games and say he wants to do everything save this, then say he wont do anything he quits then comes back round and round again. I know this will continue.

I will just ignore it and wait for the opportunity to leave. That's why I said I really need this and preferably sooner rather than later. 

I am very anxious and having a really hard time right now


----------



## farsidejunky

You are doing great. Don't waiver now! The games only work if you choose to emotionally invest in them. Stay resolute in your decision, and keep your chin up. A solution will present itself.


----------



## arandomlady

farsidejunky said:


> You are doing great. Don't waiver now! The games only work if you choose to emotionally invest in them. Stay resolute in your decision, and keep your chin up. A solution will present itself.


-------------------------

I appreciate that, I just don't want an excuse not to leave you know. I am not the type that would normally make this kind of a move, you don't even know...lol 

Its that drastic of the decision, I know a lot of people may question my motive so I have only told very close friend and family. The process is just beginning at work and its tedious to wait and go thru their process because of my situation at home.

There is a good chance I can get the job and equally that I may not. so much is riding on this... the first time it was a old listing so I thought the opportunity was gone forever

then like month later another arose and it just seems like fate to me as it was such unlikely coincidence...
I know I have to just wait for the outcome. either way it will be very very difficult. 

either it means I will have to stay stationary, or prepare for an epic move and eventually inform h and I am not certain of the reaction...


----------



## Cynthia

His reaction is his problem. Unless you are in danger, you really do not have to respond to any outburst. So often people are afraid to do what is right because of the possible (or probable reaction) of another person. I know it's hard, but you can do this.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> His reaction is his problem. Unless you are in danger, you really do not have to respond to any outburst. So often people are afraid to do what is right because of the possible (or probable reaction) of another person. I know it's hard, but you can do this.


----------------------
logically I know this but I have never done anything like this before. h has never been violent and I wouldn't expect that from him. It my concern of how I will be able to convey what this means. 

I have already determined that I have to make the move, no matter what. depending how much time I have before I report I also have to determine if I am filing for d before I go because I don't want to tell him until the arrangements are complete


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> -------------------------------
> 
> I know I shouldn't be tied to outcome but I kinda am. I don't want to move until I can transfer to a place I actually want to live in. this is critical for effort that goes into trying to get hired in another location and obviously the actual move.
> 
> If I don't get this location and there isn't another for me to go to, I am stationary for the time being...
> 
> It doesn't hurt me to be stationary as long as h pays the bills and I don't end up in a false R in the meantime ( I already established that I am not moving on with the marriage) he doesn't know I plan to leave and am looking for the transfer...
> 
> He will play games and say he wants to do everything save this, then say he wont do anything he quits then comes back round and round again. I know this will continue.
> 
> I will just ignore it and wait for the opportunity to leave. That's why I said I really need this and preferably sooner rather than later.
> 
> I am very anxious and having a really hard time right now


I re-read this and wanted to comment that I am sorry you are feeling so anxious. I will pray for you. I have a suggestion that can help you not to dwell on thoughts that are causing you to become anxious. I give this suggestion to people frequently, but I decided to write it out in article form so I could share it with you and you and others could easily access it. How to Refocus Your Thoughts Using 3x5 Cards | The Feminine Review: Homemaking, Family and the World



arandomlady said:


> ----------------------
> logically I know this but I have never done anything like this before. h has never been violent and I wouldn't expect that from him. It my concern of how I will be able to convey what this means.
> 
> I have already determined that I have to make the move, no matter what. depending how much time I have before I report I also have to determine if I am filing for d before I go because I don't want to tell him until the arrangements are complete


Take it one step at a time. Focus your energy and attention on positive things. When you begin to worry, go over Proverbs 3:5-6 and thank God that He is directing your path. Refocusing is a great help during stressful emotional times. Use the suggestions in the article I posted and that should at least provide some relief.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> I re-read this and wanted to comment that I am sorry you are feeling so anxious. I will pray for you. I have a suggestion that can help you not to dwell on thoughts that are causing you to become anxious. I give this suggestion to people frequently, but I decided to write it out in article form so I could share it with you and you and others could easily access it. How to Refocus Your Thoughts Using 3x5 Cards | The Feminine Review: Homemaking, Family and the World
> 
> 
> Take it one step at a time. Focus your energy and attention on positive things. When you begin to worry, go over Proverbs 3:5-6 and thank God that He is directing your path. Refocusing is a great help during stressful emotional times. Use the suggestions in the article I posted and that should at least provide some relief.


---------------------


My sister referred me to that verse also, and I am grateful and praying for guidance, I am but anxiety and other emotions are really strong . Plus H is calling more and I just cant talk to him now not even to pretend like I'm supposed to. I'm too emotional and cant manage the conversation because his lack of remorse is pushing me to leave when i didn't really want to. 

I will definitely look at your information, thank you for sharing that and i will take all the prayer and luck i can get now.


----------



## arandomlady

It occurred to me that i didn't say where the prime location is for the transfer it to be considered drastic, its Hawaii


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> ---------------------
> 
> 
> My sister referred me to that verse also, and I am grateful and praying for guidance, I am but anxiety and other emotions are really strong . Plus H is calling more and I just cant talk to him now not even to pretend like I'm supposed to. I'm too emotional and cant manage the conversation because his lack of remorse is pushing me to leave when i didn't really want to.
> 
> I will definitely look at your information, thank you for sharing that and i will take all the prayer and luck i can get now.


It is perfectly okay to tell your husband that the way he is talking to you is making your very anxious and upset, so you cannot talk and then hang up. I really think that telling him he is upsetting you is a healthy response. You don't have to answer a fool according to his folly. In other words, don't answer what he says. Simply tell him that what he is saying upsets you and you cannot listen to him or respond. You can repeat that as many times as you have to, but only once at time, because you will be hanging up.


----------



## Allen_A

If you tell him he's upsetting you then you are rocking the boat.

If you are OK rocking the boat go for it. If you want to keep it steady until you have a job lined up then just don't answer the phone calls.


----------



## vi_bride04

Also remember, narcissists enjoy it when they hurt you. It feeds their ego. So the more he knows he is bothering you, the more entitled he will act. 

Not responding is my vote.


----------



## Cynthia

When you are having a conversation, it is perfectly fine to cut it off by telling him that he is upsetting you. Whether he enjoys it or not is not the issue. The issue is setting a boundary that says, "You upset me, the conversation ends."


----------



## Cynthia

Let him walk on eggshells for a while. He needs to be a lot more careful with his mouth. At this point it's like verbal diarrhea. He needs to recognize that it will not be tolerated. If he cannot speak respectfully, then the conversation is over and that is all he will get over and over again. He opens his mouth, Diarrhea comes out. Conversation is over. If those of you think it gives him satisfaction to say she is hurt, then how about, “I am not going to listen to you disrespect me. I will not listen to you or speak to you when you are mistreating me. This conversation is over.” Click.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> It is perfectly okay to tell your husband that the way he is talking to you is making your very anxious and upset, so you cannot talk and then hang up. I really think that telling him he is upsetting you is a healthy response. You don't have to answer a fool according to his folly. In other words, don't answer what he says. Simply tell him that what he is saying upsets you and you cannot listen to him or respond. You can repeat that as many times as you have to, but only once at time, because you will be hanging up.


--------------------------------

That's just it, i will be honest here and tell you that I am not very good at saying just one thing and hanging up. Easier not to put up at all. It weird because he prefer to text so i don't why the calling now...

I have actually been very tired and emotional this week so have been sleeping and to top it off having the normal monthly migraines. I am feeling anxiety too. i think i might be grieving the loss of the marriage based on things I'm reading...

So to make things simple , I just text him later that not feeling good which he knows this is a monthly thing anyway and I wont talk to anyone since bedridden for about a day and half when I have that.


----------



## arandomlady

Allen_A said:


> If you tell him he's upsetting you then you are rocking the boat.
> 
> If you are OK rocking the boat go for it. If you want to keep it steady until you have a job lined up then just don't answer the phone calls.


------------------------
H is always goes between saying he do anything, then saying why should he do anything when I'm not, back to he will show what he will do to prove it and he will "give me time"... 

Just trying to remain stoic when this is going on while at the same time psychologically divorcing him and trying to picture my future without him is a challenge. the mental gymnastics can wear one down..,

No I don't want to rock the boat it doesn't really serve my purpose. He doesn't care about my feelings, that is clear with his actions. I know he thinks I'm impenetrable because of the apathy and nonchalant way i roll most of the time that's why he does the shock and awe things in conversation. which for me is why i cant let know I'm upset..

Letting him talk about his experiences and essentially blame me and show the flashes of his true nature is helping me to see what I need to let go and relinquish the last 5% chance I had left in hope he would change.


----------



## arandomlady

vi_bride04 said:


> Also remember, narcissists enjoy it when they hurt you. It feeds their ego. So the more he knows he is bothering you, the more entitled he will act.
> 
> Not responding is my vote.


-------------------------

As much as I would like to believe he isn't a narcissist, the indicators are overwhelming. my nature is not show when I upset when I think that is the reaction he is looking for because then he will do more of that behavior when he feels he has an upper hand


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> --------------------------------
> 
> That's just it, i will be honest here and tell you that I am not very good at saying just one thing and hanging up. Easier not to put up at all. It weird because he prefer to text so i don't why the calling now...
> 
> I have actually been very tired and emotional this week so have been sleeping and to top it off having the normal monthly migraines. I am feeling anxiety too. i think i might be grieving the loss of the marriage based on things I'm reading...
> 
> So to make things simple , I just text him later that not feeling good which he knows this is a monthly thing anyway and I wont talk to anyone since bedridden for about a day and half when I have that.


It is hard, but if you are speaking to him, you have to set boundaries if you want to be healthy. Practice saying it over and over again when you are not talking to him. Write it on a 3x5 card and memorize it.
I think the second thing I said was better, after someone else mentioned that it might be playing into his game.
“I am not going to listen to you disrespect me. You are mistreating me. This conversation is over.” Click.
If you have that on a 3x5 card in your pocket, even if you have it memorized, you can still pull out the card and read it. Then hang up. You may be shaking and feel horrid, but you are going to be okay. You can learn how to set healthy boundaries and not let him treat you badly.


----------



## arandomlady

I will not listen to you or speak to you when you are mistreating me. This conversation is over.” Click.[/QUOTE]



CynthiaDe said:


> When you are having a conversation, it is perfectly fine to cut it off by telling him that he is upsetting you. Whether he enjoys it or not is not the issue. The issue is setting a boundary that says, "You upset me, the conversation ends."


-----------------------

With h he is trying a variety of styles to figure out what I am doing. He is thrown off by my giving him the book and appearance of r without actually moving towards r or even remotely resuming the marriage.

He is confused by this and fact that I don't make myself available to him either, not total 180 but not preaffair setting. This is why he is pulling out all the stops to get a response because to him nothing is working...

I could try to set a boundary with how he talks to me but the sick thing is, i actually need to see how low he will go even though it hurts me... i need to see that slimy underbelly I refused to see all these years. 

You have to understand, I was thinking this affair thing was a fluke not a pattern of other immature passive aggressive behavior that had been already been exhibited throughout the marriage.

I guess what i am trying to do is force out the worst in him now so I can turn my back completely when its really time for me to leave. not sure if this is making any sense to anyone but me


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> -----------------------
> 
> With h he is trying a variety of styles to figure out what I am doing. He is thrown off by my giving him the book and appearance of r without actually moving towards r or even remotely resuming the marriage.
> 
> He is confused by this and fact that I don't make myself available to him either, not total 180 but not preaffair setting. This is why he is pulling out all the stops to get a response because to him nothing is working...
> 
> I could try to set a boundary with how he talks to me but the sick thing is, i actually need to see how low he will go even though it hurts me... i need to see that slimy underbelly I refused to see all these years.
> 
> You have to understand, I was thinking this affair thing was a fluke not a pattern of other immature passive aggressive behavior that had been already been exhibited throughout the marriage.
> 
> I guess what i am trying to do is force out the worst in him now so I can turn my back completely when its really time for me to leave. not sure if this is making any sense to anyone but me


You are making sense, but I don't think it is healthy at all.
Rather than forming healthy boundaries, you are allowing continued abuse so you will have more courage to leave. There is another path, but it requires that you form healthy boundaries. This is the time to do it. Are you afraid that forming healthy boundaries with your husband may actually cause him to repent and then you would feel that you had to take him back? I ask this as a Christian, because this is what a lot of Christians believe. I am coming to you from a very serious Christian faith and I do not believe you would have to take him back if he repents. I don't think that is what the Bible says and is therefore not what God requires of you.


----------



## arandomlady

You are making sense, but I don't think it is healthy at all.
Rather than forming healthy boundaries, you are allowing continued abuse so you will have more courage to leave. There is another path, but it requires that you form healthy boundaries. This is the time to do it. Are you afraid that forming healthy boundaries with your husband may actually cause him to repent and then you would feel that you had to take him back? I ask this as a Christian, because this is what a lot of Christians believe. I am coming to you from a very serious Christian faith and I do not believe you would have to take him back if he repents. I don't think that is what the Bible says and is therefore not what God requires of you.[/QUOTE]

___________________________


Here's the thing, when h is talking to me, there is no "abuse" per se. He just carries on without addressing anything and proceeds like there is no problem in the marriage. 

He started reading the Just Friends and carried on with the parts he identified with, when I challenged him to read further and on some of things he was saying about the marriage I felt were untrue then he resorted to name calling, deflection.

After all that has transpired and his reaction I simply don't think I am going to get anything out of him unless I leave. I think that part is critical.

As long as I am here for him and he thinks I wont leave there is no real incentive for him to truly repent and have the respectful boundary you are talking about.

For where the marriage is right now, the idea of healthy boundaries is moot at this point because he doesn't think he is wrong. he thinks my actions precipitated the affair. I have given him opportunity here. this is not day one this is like months and months of chances... 

He has already mortally hurt me. the fact that I am actually taking the blinders off and facing that fact does help the motive to leave, true.

I need to leave for more than just one reason though.


----------



## Cynthia

Okay. Let me get this straight.
Is this what you are doing?
You are allowing him to think that you are open to reconciliation, but you are not.
He is talking to you about the book and you have to respond to him somehow, since he thinks you are open to reconciliation.
When you get to talking, if you disagree with him, he starts in on you.
If this is the case, then I think you continuing until he starts in on you and then giving him the “I am not going to listen to you disrespect me. You are mistreating me. This conversation is over.” 
When he is just generally speaking to you, but is not being abusive, then he is living according to your terms of not being rude to you, so that’s okay. The issue is when he starts in on you. That should be shut down.
It is not healthy for you to take abuse. It does not help you to learn to establish healthy boundaries. The boundaries are not as much for him as they are for you. These are boundaries around you for your protection. They are not to teach him anything.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Husband ended affair, Other women shows up at our home to confront*



CynthiaDe said:


> Okay. Let me get this straight.
> Is this what you are doing?
> You are allowing him to think that you are open to reconciliation, but you are not.
> He is talking to you about the book and you have to respond to him somehow, since he thinks you are open to reconciliation.
> When you get to talking, if you disagree with him, he starts in on you.
> If this is the case, then I think you continuing until he starts in on you and then giving him the “I am not going to listen to you disrespect me. You are mistreating me. This conversation is over.”
> When he is just generally speaking to you, but is not being abusive, then he is living according to your terms of not being rude to you, so that’s okay. The issue is when he starts in on you. That should be shut down.
> It is not healthy for you to take abuse. It does not help you to learn to establish healthy boundaries. The boundaries are not as much for him as they are for you. These are boundaries around you for your protection. They are not to teach him anything.


This is what I was failing but trying to communicate in my last post. What is the price paid for enduring this?


----------



## Cynthia

farsidejunky said:


> This is what I was failing but trying to communicate in my last post. What is the price paid for enduring this?


Right. It has to work for your overall health and for not falling into unhealthy patterns that will follow you from this relationship. I think you can do this, but you my actually need to come up with some one liners that you keep on a card in front of you when you're on the phone. Not sure what to do when he's with you, except memorize your on-liners and exit the room. With practice and with training your mind to do that, you can make it work.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> Okay. Let me get this straight.
> Is this what you are doing?
> You are allowing him to think that you are open to reconciliation, but you are not.
> He is talking to you about the book and you have to respond to him somehow, since he thinks you are open to reconciliation.
> When you get to talking, if you disagree with him, he starts in on you.
> If this is the case, then I think you continuing until he starts in on you and then giving him the “I am not going to listen to you disrespect me. You are mistreating me. This conversation is over.”
> When he is just generally speaking to you, but is not being abusive, then he is living according to your terms of not being rude to you, so that’s okay. The issue is when he starts in on you. That should be shut down.
> It is not healthy for you to take abuse. It does not help you to learn to establish healthy boundaries. The boundaries are not as much for him as they are for you. These are boundaries around you for your protection. They are not to teach him anything.


----------------------------

In short, yes because want to know what he is really thinking not sugar coated so if it comes off as harsh its ok because I need to hear it. I don’t like it but that doesn’t mean its abuse. When conversation devolves to the level of naming calling the conversation IS shut down.

Typically, H is not overtly disrespectful to me, its usually colored in a passive aggressive stance. So its not really a problem. I am mentioning it to show the different ranges of his behavior from he will die with out me to he want to leave asap…

I am trying to uncover the passivity of the underlying aggressiveness in his true views about the affair why he did it. No, I am not advocating taking abuse. I am trying to pull off the wool of the wolf in sheep clothing so to speak.

H knows how to shut the conversation down that’s why he did the name calling because he knows I was getting at something he doesn’t want to address. 

This is hard to convey because I have in mind whats going on but its not always clear when imparting it here. The boundary problems that he has is concerning the relationship parameters not the communications between him and I as that’s not really the issue.


----------



## arandomlady

farsidejunky said:


> This is what I was failing but trying to communicate in my last post. What is the price paid for enduring this?


------------------------------

I understand exactly where you are coming from and appreciate the viewpoint. I don't want to give the wrong impression about my accepting or tolerating verbal abuse because I don't.

No the abuse I have from h if I were to call it that is his refusal to show remorse and try to rugsweep the affair and essential act like things are fine then get mad when I tell him they are not and question him about his fairytale view of things.

The price is paid already, the pain and disappointment wont just magically stop even if I get the transfer and am gone...its diminishing marginal utility is what I think it is.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> Right. It has to work for your overall health and for not falling into unhealthy patterns that will follow you from this relationship. I think you can do this, but you my actually need to come up with some one liners that you keep on a card in front of you when you're on the phone. Not sure what to do when he's with you, except memorize your on-liners and exit the room. With practice and with training your mind to do that, you can make it work.


----------------------------

The communication we have is generally one sided because I don't have much to say. remember for me the less I say the better. I am trying to be neutral because I don't want him to know if I am coming or going


----------



## Cynthia

In the mean time, please take good care of yourself physically, emotionally and spiritually. That will make you strong.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> In the mean time, please take good care of yourself physically, emotionally and spiritually. That will make you strong.


-------------------------

I appreciate that because its very important for my well being and its something I took charge of and working on since they very beginning of this. Rest assured I am and looking at even more ways to improve.

I am reading the bible more, prayer/medication yoga 5x a week and home exercise and reading other books and of course voicing my frustrations here.

I am serious when I say that I am thankful to you all here for your comments. I have a friends but I don't burden then with this unless they ask for an update plus feeling like a leper. 

I am still in ic so a lot of issues are being discussed there as well.

My anxiousness with this thing is that I am very excited with the opportunity but also tire of my limbo status. Feel like I cant really heal until I can make a move. 

I have paid my dues with waiting and giving this thing time to play out. Something tells me if I get the position and actually make this move I wont be able to imagine whats in store.

If I cant get out sooner than later, then that's another matter...


----------



## Cynthia

The things you are doing to care for yourself are probably keeping the anxiety less than it would be otherwise. You have clear thinking, which is good.
Some other things that can help are:
Take deep breathes in through your nose and out through your mouth when you begin to feel stressed.
Use essential oils applied to pressure points to reduce anxiety. Lavender can help with that. There are some others as well, but I don't remember. You can google anxiety essential oils and see what comes up.
And the cards help as well to focus your mind.
I'm praying for you.


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> The things you are doing to care for yourself are probably keeping the anxiety less than it would be otherwise. You have clear thinking, which is good.
> Some other things that can help are:
> Take deep breathes in through your nose and out through your mouth when you begin to feel stressed.
> Use essential oils applied to pressure points to reduce anxiety. Lavender can help with that. There are some others as well, but I don't remember. You can google anxiety essential oils and see what comes up.
> And the cards help as well to focus your mind.
> I'm praying for you.


------------------

Thanks for the prayer and tips helps me immensely and do the same to all those hurting. I never even had a breakup before because I never had a serious boyfriend...its lousy that the first one is a doozy...


----------



## arandomlady

Diary update: Baby ultimatum -

H text me today asking will I be happy to see him, I said sure. he then says is there any chance we can work through this, I said depends on effort. he then says a condition of us working on things ( we are not working on things by the way*) is that "we have 1 or more kids" GTFOH!!!

So I said, h, you already know the deal with that, ( I had issues with my ladybits not a good idea to try and carry plus I am lady of certain age and most importantly I DONT WANT TO)- Especially not with a cheater...

He wants me to seriously consider this...I said you had my answer on this 4-5 year ago its the same.. H says this is going to hurt me more than it does you but I am running out of time and I need to let you go so I can have a family. 

I said ok but find it convenient this occurs after being caught cheating especially since I was sensitive to that concern I had given him years ago when having the issues and finally decided I didn't want kids and he stated he was fine. ( keep in mine h has 3 kids/young adults already).

I told him I would never stand in way of his happiness so proceed accordingly. Its funny how cheating brings out the family values in some people...


*for those keeping score the hope for reconciliation meter just hit 
-30 from the all time low of 5% at last measurement.


----------



## illwill

Pull the trigger. Seriously, your last post about him shows he is STILL selfish with regards to your life.


----------



## arandomlady

illwill said:


> Pull the trigger. Seriously, your last post about him shows he is STILL selfish with regards to your life.


------------------------
Definitely am -- ending this thread and moving to going through divorce under: H cheated, wants a baby to R, I rather D and move to Hawaii


----------



## farsidejunky

This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you? Just wow...


----------



## Cynthia

arandomlady said:


> ------------------
> 
> Thanks for the prayer and tips helps me immensely and do the same to all those hurting. I never even had a breakup before because I never had a serious boyfriend...its lousy that the first one is a doozy...


I'll keep praying for you. I'm glad to be of some help. It really is hard to go through such utter rejection from the person who supposedly committed his life to you. It's just terrible.
I'm sorry he is now demanding a baby, like you should be the one to make changes when he is the one who broke your heart. He seems to have completely lost his moral compass somewhere along the way.


----------



## clipclop2

Do you think he is talking with OW again? I'm wondering if the book has made him nostalgic for her and if she wants children with him.

You might be able to buy some time by telling him you will think about it more and must also have a full physical to see what kind of impact it might have on you. If the doctor says it is not advised for you to conceive, would he bail on you? I'm curious what his answer would be if a medical reason were the sole reason you did not want children.

Has he read any further or did he stop once the book stopped supporting his notion that he was an innocent victim. Yes, people find themselves in situations that make them susceptible to an affair. But they still have to DECIDE to cheat and then act on that decision. It is at that point that they become full participants and lose all innocence. They may have been blind sided by emotions but they knew what they were doing was wrong... Thus the secrecy... And in fact, since he never mentioned her at all, he was never innocent from the start. As you said, he was looking for opportunity. That is where not just friends might not be a good fit for his affair. Friend affairs often take place in plain sight because they at first seem so innocent. The lines get blurry over time and the lines get crossed and then things get weirder because what was innocent is no longer innocent but you have to continue to play the "just friends " game to attempt to hide the new reality.

Your husband didn't have that kind of relationship. 

Stay strong!


----------



## badmemory

arandomlady said:


> he then says a condition of us working on things ( we are not working on things by the way*) is that "we have 1 or more kids" GTFOH!!!


In the annals of demonstrated arrogance and assholism, that's one for the record books. He will do you the favor of letting you forgive him for his A, if you agree to have children. Almost beyond belief.

You should be grateful to him for leaving you *NO DOUBT*, about what to do next.


----------



## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> Do you think he is talking with OW again? I'm wondering if the book has made him nostalgic for her and if she wants children with him.
> 
> You might be able to buy some time by telling him you will think about it more and must also have a full physical to see what kind of impact it might have on you. If the doctor says it is not advised for you to conceive, would he bail on you? I'm curious what his answer would be if a medical reason were the sole reason you did not want children.
> 
> Has he read any further or did he stop once the book stopped supporting his notion that he was an innocent victim. Yes, people find themselves in situations that make them susceptible to an affair. But they still have to DECIDE to cheat and then act on that decision. It is at that point that they become full participants and lose all innocence. They may have been blind sided by emotions but they knew what they were doing was wrong... Thus the secrecy... And in fact, since he never mentioned her at all, he was never innocent from the start. As you said, he was looking for opportunity. That is where not just friends might not be a good fit for his affair. Friend affairs often take place in plain sight because they at first seem so innocent. The lines get blurry over time and the lines get crossed and then things get weirder because what was innocent is no longer innocent but you have to continue to play the "just friends " game to attempt to hide the new reality.
> 
> Your husband didn't have that kind of relationship.
> 
> Stay strong!


----------------


Hey don’t you know I graduated to the going thru divorce section. Lol. I am starting to think if never stopped. I would actually not be surprised if he isn’t getting his advise from her… she is 40 and they seem to have more in common though I don’t think she prime for motherhood again but could surprise me. 

No I would expect him to go younger, like someone under 30 
( he is going to be 42). He wants a new family to right the wrongs he done with his older children, this is what I believe…

I don’t think he wants to talk about the book anymore, like a poster said here, he will give the appearance but then stop and ask what am I doing before he will follow though. He already knows medically its not a good idea was in the dr office with me at that time and I had reiterated that several times. I

t’s a red herring. He wants to now say oh, yeah I cheated but I’m really leaving you because I realize I want a family and you wont give me one… oh and I don’t want to be with the o/w anyway…

I am going thru the motions of trying to get the other job so I can just get the divorce and leave this behind you know. I have been using this site as a diary or sorts. I am going insane with the ridiculousness of it all…


----------



## arandomlady

badmemory said:


> In the annals of demonstrated arrogance and assholism, that's one for the record books. He will do you the favor of letting you forgive him for his A, if you agree to have children. Almost beyond belief.
> --------------
> 
> I know right--its craxy because I know he is dead serious... what the hell... its like I said before- twilight zone


----------



## clipclop2

I'll head over to your new thread...

Could be that if he knocked you up he would feel you won't be going anywhere. The lack of positive feedback from you didn't give him the immediate gratification he wanted so perhaps he wanted to see if he could find another way to assure himself Mommy wouldn't go away.

Somehow I don't believe he wants another family. He has a job and his freedom is going to take front and center. Babies don't allow for freedom.

This is just like his other nonsense. He is trying to force a response from you. 

I also don't think he will follow through with a divorce unless the OW is there for him. Even then I'm not so sure. He isn't in love. He wants you. So my guess is he will be back attempting R in his own inept way.


----------



## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> I'll head over to your new thread...
> 
> Could be that if he knocked you up he would feel you won't be going anywhere. The lack of positive feedback from you didn't give him the immediate gratification he wanted so perhaps he wanted to see if he could find another way to assure himself Mommy wouldn't go away.
> 
> Somehow I don't believe he wants another family. He has a job and his freedom is going to take front and center. Babies don't allow for freedom.
> 
> This is just like his other nonsense. He is trying to force a response from you.
> 
> I also don't think he will follow through with a divorce unless the OW is there for him. Even then I'm not so sure. He isn't in love. He wants you. So my guess is he will be back attempting R in his own inept way.


---------------------------------------------

So will people care I maintain both threads? this one has more info and I don't mind. You know it could go either way. On the way hand he may be baby crazy going through male midlife or something or he could be trying to see what my response will be... I am leaning on the latter only because he had the affair and seems like he is trying to doom the marriage in my opinion.

Thing is, even if I wanted a baby, ( an I don't remotely want one)it would be risky given my issues. My mind is made up there, I don't have the lifestyle or inclination to be a parent, period. he knows this so this lead me to thing he is trying to control the D narrative. 

Besides, I wont even hug him now so why the hair brain question of making a baby??? Even if we were not on the outs, its wouldn't be a good idea as I have no help, he isn't even here nor any family and nevermind he doesn't like that lifestyle since likes to go out on a whim and the place we live not exactly the best place for kids anyway...

I told the ic the latest tomfoolery and he literally could not believe what I told him. he seemed dumbfounded and stunned. He wanted to know how in the world could have any doubts about this... I explained to him I realize how insane it is but it doesn't mean I can just turn off my love for the guy. 

I was holding out hope that I was enough and I cant any more. He keeps saying he wants to do done and I'm like ok then do what you have to do but he hasn't...

For all intent purposes we are separated and he just doesn't seem to get that even though he tells me he wants to move then he text me today saying he only ever wanted 1 women... I refuse to reply when he cleared wanted more than 1 with his cheating and prowling...

this would funny if it were a movie or sitcom and not my life


----------



## Acabado

lady, don't pay attention to the baby thing. It's a set up. He knows well you won't go there at all. Specially in this circunstances. He jaust want you to rejects his "loving offer". Get it?


----------



## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: Husband ended affair, Other women shows up at our home to confront*



Acabado said:


> lady, don't pay attention to the baby thing. It's a set up. He knows well you won't go there at all. Specially in this circunstances. He jaust want you to rejects his "loving offer". Get it?


This is so spot on.


----------



## Cynthia

Maybe you should call his bluff. Tell him you'd love to have a baby if he would go through an affair recovery program and stop acting like a jerk. Of course, he would reject that offer.


----------



## clipclop2

I think he is trying to force a response, just like leaving open porn, etc.

To me, asking him if a baby is a deal breaker knowing it is a health problem for you eliminates his ability to claim this is about babies. Don't shy away from the question.

You leave him off the hook.

I know you do it because you want out. But if it bugs you to allow him to use these lies you really do have the option of using the truth. This part is on you.


----------



## arandomlady

Acabado said:


> lady, don't pay attention to the baby thing. It's a set up. He knows well you won't go there at all. Specially in this circunstances. He jaust want you to rejects his "loving offer". Get it?


--------------------

Its so dumb, what's the motivation?


----------



## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> I think he is trying to force a response, just like leaving open porn, etc.
> 
> To me, asking him if a baby is a deal breaker knowing it is a health problem for you eliminates his ability to claim this is about babies. Don't shy away from the question.
> 
> You leave him off the hook.
> 
> I know you do it because you want out. But if it bugs you to allow him to use these lies you really do have the option of using the truth. This part is on you.


-----------------------

I am not quite sure if I follow you mean press him on the issue because he will probably lie and say he didn't know its a health problem? its so lame I don't know why he even comes up with these things..,


----------



## arandomlady

CynthiaDe said:


> Maybe you should call his bluff. Tell him you'd love to have a baby if he would go through an affair recovery program and stop acting like a jerk. Of course, he would reject that offer.


--------------------

I know right. I just don't get it. this is just devolving into, I don't know what..


----------



## vi_bride04

*Re: Re: Husband ended affair, Other women shows up at our home to confront*



arandomlady said:


> --------------------
> 
> Its so dumb, what's the motivation?


To not look like the bad guy.

He offered you a family and you still wanted to divorce him. 

Remember, he feels his cheating is justified so it is a moot point in his mind.


----------



## arandomlady

vi_bride04 said:


> To not look like the bad guy.
> 
> He offered you a family and you still wanted to divorce him.
> 
> Remember, he feels his cheating is justified so it is a moot point in his mind.


------------------------
I've told my family and my friends about the cheating so if he comes around with that bull, I would hope people don't buy it. I am not close to his family so I haven't told them anything and don't care what they think.


He has been texting me that since I gave him my answer, (granted this has been know for YEARS that I don't want and cant exactly have children) that I will get his now... OOOh I'm sooo scared. I haven't responded maybe he WILL do me a solid and file but doubt it


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## clipclop2

He won't file. We both know that.

Maybe he will leave the browser open to a page of women willing to carry his baby next time.

What are his texts about?


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## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> He won't file. We both know that.
> 
> Maybe he will leave the browser open to a page of women willing to carry his baby next time.
> 
> What are his texts about?


------------------------

just that threatening to file...telling me he is serious and better I believe him and that he really means it now


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## vi_bride04

They never file, they don't want to look like the bad guy in any shape or form


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## arandomlady

vi_bride04 said:


> They never file, they don't want to look like the bad guy in any shape or form


-------------------------

I don't want to pull that trigger until I have my out as I talked about, the job thing is still up in the air. However, if he presented with the joint uncontested divorce forms I will sign it.


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## arandomlady

It about the time again unfortunately he will probably be coming in late from the drive... I'm not sure what drama he will have this time since he knows I am not going to be " happy to see" him


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## clipclop2

Roll your eyes and show him the contempt he has earned. 

A man of action acts.

This guy is to afraid to act. He is also too stupid to notice a pattern: you do not respond to his nonsense.

And yet...

He keeps trying to make YOU respond.

LOL! 

Hold to your plan. It will work out.


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## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> Roll your eyes and show him the contempt he has earned.
> 
> A man of action acts.
> 
> This guy is to afraid to act. He is also too stupid to notice a pattern: you do not respond to his nonsense.
> 
> And yet...
> 
> He keeps trying to make YOU respond.
> 
> LOL!
> 
> Hold to your plan. It will work out.


---------------------------------

I hope so, it seems he is upping the ante. He is not realizing that I have the ultimate betrayal and humiliation under my belt... I'm like what now. I try to look at it as entertainment. people tell me he is so confused and just acting out almost like they feel sorry for HIM... he is one of those likeable people and I am not so much so people are kinda giving him the benefit of the doubt..


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## illwill

He is a coward of the highest order. He will not file. You are a smart and strong woman. As i said before pull the trigger. Take away his cake. And move on. Do not let this drag on until 2015. If you do, you can no longer blame him for your situation. 

He is doing what is in his nature. DO NOT WAIT.

Your ability to end this ridiculous charade is not dependent on the belief of others.


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## arandomlady

illwill said:


> He is a coward of the highest order. He will not file. You are a smart and strong woman. As i said before pull the trigger. Take away his cake. And move on. Do not let this drag on until 2015. If you do, you can no longer blame him for your situation.
> 
> He is doing what is in his nature. DO NOT WAIT.
> 
> Your ability to end this ridiculous charade is not dependent on the belief of others.


------------
that's the plan when I can actually MOVE...lol I appreciate that. In my mind its over anyway but I still hurt. I'm trying to get the position in Hawaii and it jst feels like its taking so long to go thru the process... I'm also looking for another locations too iin case I don't get it but not many where I want to go and dealing with his bs is less than the cost of rent and signing a lease I might have to get out on short notice


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## clipclop2

What ante has he upped? I don't see it. Yapping isn't doing.


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## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> What ante has he upped? I don't see it. Yapping isn't doing.


---------------

just the fact he would throw in baby talk when its not relevant. I mainly mean for the conversation about the divorce to others.
He has been all over the map with his feelings and bs.

He showed his text to me ad of course he had deleted his responses and most of them but was nice enough to leave the naked photos of the ow for my enjoyment. nice

he is cooperating he says, he is doing everything he can to "win back my heart"... its comical


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## clipclop2

What steps has he taken to let you go since his announcement?


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## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> What steps has he taken to let you go since his announcement?


--------------------------------------------------

Well nothing of course. he spent the time he was here in poker tournaments and just relaxing saying he is very tired doesn't have time to go to courthouse...whatever.

We got in an argument because he is saying that I'm not "meeting him halfway" I explained the fact that I haven't left ( though plan to) IS giving him an opportunity.

Then he stays how can he be expected not to want "food" when he is starving...I advised I am not "cooking" for someone who just have the buffet... as usual he may a situation to storm out and leave to his rental earlier... oh well


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## arandomlady

Diary update. still awaiting interview for the transfer. I am trying to work on the anxiousness with the suggestions I have received here but now the feeling of loneliness and no intimacy is creeping in. I haven't had desire for H for a long time now to the point where even a kernel of likeability is even vanishing. I wish I could say I had no desire for men in general. This seems to be growing in a way I hadn't anticipated...

I know its wrong but I am starting to think about my love life after this and wonder about the men I will encounter. I am still in ic and trying to fix myself. I feel I like I have awaken from a deep sleep its very strange and unsettling.


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## clipclop2

Thinking about sex is good. Maybe if he would have an STD test you could boff him to tide you over.

Not that I think you should.... And not that I think he will... But you are married. Sex is legal.


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## arandomlady

clipclop2 said:


> Thinking about sex is good. Maybe if he would have an STD test you could boff him to tide you over.
> 
> Not that I think you should.... And not that I think he will... But you are married. Sex is legal.


---------------------------

Oh he has been tested and cleared (He made sure to do that on the last visit as it was on the list). I guess he figured I wouldn't have sex with him otherwise. The critical false belief for him, is I would not have asked IF I DIDNT WANT SEX with HIM.


When this first happened, I was afraid I would be like a lot of people going into the hysterical bounding phase. It seems like the exact opposite has occurred with "wanting" H. Like turned off unplugged and dismantled...

I'm freaking out because my desire is becoming elevated for OTHER MEN... Geez that radar/antenna had been off for sooo long forgot how that felt and I don't think an increased appetite/awareness is very helpful to me right now...


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## farsidejunky

I think it is helpful as an indicator of healing, moving on, etc. You are right in that acting on it would complicate matters, but it is one more item on the list that is giving you a taste of what life will be like once you are done with this dude.


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## arandomlady

farsidejunky said:


> I think it is helpful as an indicator of healing, moving on, etc. You are right in that acting on it would complicate matters, but it is one more item on the list that is giving you a taste of what life will be like once you are done with this dude.


-----------------

I guess I assumed the feelings would occur after a long time... not now! I didn't anticipate them occurring in while I'm still trying to implement the plan for transfer. I'm doing so many things at once its not even funny, I thought I didn't have time to FEEL that...lol

You are right though about it being a healing indication, before all of this I would barely notice an attractive man and only for fleeting moment. Now noticing is the least of what's going on. I was shocked the other day I saw an attractive guy at the store and for the first time in eons I actually wondered if he was single..scary


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## illwill

He took many things from you, do not let him take your future.


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## arandomlady

illwill said:


> He took many things from you, do not let him take your future.


--------------------

I cant and I wont because its over. I'm planning towards the future now and living it in certain actions I am taking on healing and self improvement. I am scare about what that future is but ready to find out.


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## clipclop2

Yeah. You are done. You have moved on.

Sorry I resurrected this thread. You are indeed in the divorce phase. It just hasn't gotten official.

Congrats and good luck! Hope you get that transfer so you can get out of this game.


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## arandomlady

It occurred to me people might still be reading this (I'm in the separation/divorce area now) so here is the update. Haven't seen the stbxh in months, moved out of the home. I got the transfer, got the tubal ligation, about to start training out of state for several weeks then on to Hawaii. I just had first encounter (safely of course) with a guy I had been hanging out with for few months and ending it (knew of possible transfer) he doesn't know...and I'm about to file. perhaps this was not in the right order, but that's life


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## clipclop2

congratulations on your new adventures !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Husband ended affair, Other women shows up at our home to confront*



arandomlady said:


> It occurred to me people might still be reading this (I'm in the separation/divorce area now) so here is the update. Haven't seen the stbxh in months, moved out of the home. I got the transfer, got the tubal ligation, about to start training out of state for several weeks then on to Hawaii. I just had first encounter (safely of course) with a guy I had been hanging out with for few months and ending it (knew of possible transfer) he doesn't know...and I'm about to file. perhaps this was not in the right order, but that's life


Wow, I was pessimistic at first when I saw you are thread had been updated. 

Good for you. Move on, enjoy life, take your time and find love.


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## arandomlady

I have been told by friends, therapist, and family that I have come along way and its thanks to this forum and dialogue I had with many of you when in the thick of this. With God, meditation, input from others and just listening to that inner voice, I'm resolved in carrying out everything I talked about. Don't get me wrong, it hasn't been easy and I have a ways to go but the course is set. This is a thank you again to those that commented and hopefully this can help others in the play by play moments of dealing with something of this magnitude.


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## Roselyn

I wish you the best in your future. You are level headed, non-nonsense, and very strong. You deserve love and loyalty!:smthumbup:


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## treyvion

Allen_A said:


> IT's best that you keep away from her. If a fight breaks out you both get hauled in.
> 
> I really have to question your husband's thinking in letting her IN.
> 
> :wtf:


He let her in because she has control over him.


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## treyvion

Allen_A said:


> It's frequently the case that cheating men and cheating women will even protect the affair partner to the betrayer's detriment... been there myself. That's just more of the same old.. put effort into AP, screw over your wife. He's just repeating the same pattern.
> 
> What's the point in him changing his number if he's going to INVITE her into his HOME?
> 
> Cheaters have a really f'd up sense of loyalty.
> 
> It never occurred to him to protect YOU at any point.. just HER.
> 
> I dunno, that's a telling statement right there. He let her into not only your marriage, but now your HOME.
> 
> Changing his phone number really gets overshadowed by this choice of his. He just undid any repair work he's done so far.
> 
> Is OW married or anything? I wouldnt' call OW, I would have contacted her husband/boyfriend/parole officer.


Cheaters protect each other against the morally straight because they are in it together. Only when they know they are truly caught will one rat on the other.


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