# My faith in women is lacking



## wanttofix (Jun 4, 2013)

I am not prince charming because life isn't a Disney story. I am an old fashion kind of guy. Work hard to provide a living and through this should prove my love. Words in my family are words and have no meaning to them. Actions is what it's about. Prove you're a hard worker and the person you love will love you endlessly. 

Why exactly do women try to turn a man into a woman? I think what I mean is talking about your feelings. I show and express my love to another, but you want for me to share my feelings? Maybe trying to turn them into metrosexuals, barf. I am not miss daisy, I get dirty and love hard work, sorry. 

What do you guys think? Is the old fashion man being tossed aside for a female version?


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I have never tried to turn a man into a woman, what a stupid concept that is, I like men to be men. For me a good strong man with a high IQ is a must but when he also has a very high EQ then he is the greatest of men IMHO.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I had never thought of it as trying to turn a man into a woman, but I have said many times that women seem to be looking for qualities in a man far different than what my grandmother was looking for in my grandfather. I guess that's normal; time moves on and things change, but me being the old fashioned guy, it doesn't seem like I fit at times.


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## wanttofix (Jun 4, 2013)

southbound said:


> I had never thought of it as trying to turn a man into a woman, but I have said many times that women seem to be looking for qualities in a man far different than what my grandmother was looking for in my grandfather. I guess that's normal; time moves on and things change, but me being the old fashioned guy, it doesn't seem like I fit at times.


Do you think it's a United States thing or western or ? Maybe it's time for me to seek new lands if it's different somewhere else.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I had this problem with my wife and her need for "Words of affirmation" - its just her love language. I was raised (and proven) that words are meaningless so it never came naturally for me to express my affection in that method. Meh


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Actually I have the opposite problem. My wife has a wall around her to avoid being vulnerable. It means that she will not communicate what she wants or needs or feels about anything more significant than what she needs me to pickup from the grocery store on the way home. We don't talk about anything significant and we don't argue. It leaves me guessing and after 21 years of marriage, I still can't read her mind. This lack of communication is a major problem in our marriage.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## yours4ever (Mar 14, 2013)

i think men and women should meet somewhere in the middle. i know my husband cant stand expression of negative emotions from but i wont feel close and trust if i dont share feelings with him. well, now.. i work through my negative emotions on my own.. and by the time i havr cooled down, there is more expression of positivity than negativity. and i usually try to summarize than going into storytelling mode. needs reminder though.

BTW, not only women need verbal affirmations... some men too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

wanttofix said:


> I am not prince charming because life isn't a Disney story. I am an old fashion kind of guy. Work hard to provide a living and through this should prove my love. Words in my family are words and have no meaning to them. Actions is what it's about. Prove you're a hard worker and the person you love will love you endlessly.
> 
> Why exactly do women try to turn a man into a woman? I think what I mean is talking about your feelings. I show and express my love to another, but you want for me to share my feelings? Maybe trying to turn them into metrosexuals, barf. I am not miss daisy, I get dirty and love hard work, sorry.
> 
> What do you guys think? Is the old fashion man being tossed aside for a female version?


I think you can be both. Just like athletes of years past that were 1 dimensional now we have guys who big, fast, and smart the same goes for Husband/Wife.

A women can provide just like a man, so then what? Deep emotional bonds based on opening up, realness, and gut wrenching honesty are essential for deep bonds, imo.

Old status quo of "Man work, fix stuff, be tough" and "Women, clean, raise kids, and cater to their man" is so BLECH..

Rolls based on gender is stupid!! Any man imo will be left in the dust if they don't embrace the softer side of life.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

One can work hard and still find a good women. I guess I don't see the connection between working hard and never saying I love you. I see it as two completely different things. Whats wrong with telling your wife you love her? Nothing metro or girly about that. In fact when most of us leave here or are left behind by loved ones the biggest regret that many will have is that they didn't say it enough.

Don't get me wrong I'm big on the man providing. But a paycheck is just a cold hard piece of paper with no feelings. Your lady needs you to. Not just a check. Just like my children need me to actually engage with them, not just buy them stuff. Don't live your life so guarded and bottled up. Its way too short for that.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Some actual examples would be helpful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, not everyone feels loved in the same way, and two people may feel very differently about a situation without one of them being wrong. A woman who needs something other than your paycheck to feel loved by you is not wrong. Perhaps she needs words, or non-sexual affection in order to feel loved by her partner. Just as you would not be wrong if, rather than words or affection, you needed sex or for her to be a great recreational companion in order to feel loved by her. Those differences are only problems if one or both of you dismiss, and refuse to meet, your partner's needs because you don't share them. 

I don't care what your, or your partner's top needs are...insisting that there's something wrong with women (or that there's some vast societal conspiracy to turn men into women), when what your partner needs is different from what you think she "should" need, is a certain path to an unhappy relationship.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

Being "manly" means whatever you want it to mean. For some men, that means being the strong silent type who is acts as the rock for his wife. For other men, that means overcoming their vulnerability and sharing their feelings.

This idea that women all carry around a Bingo card of impossible to attain and self contradictory traits that a possible mate must complete before she considers a romantic and sexual relationship with the candidate is as ridiculous as it sounds. Most women are just like us men: Trying to figure out their lives and their relationships.

The trick is twofold: Come to define and become comfortable in your definition of manliness, and then find a woman who enjoys your brand of manliness just as your enjoy her brand of femininity.

Let "Society" worry about its definition of manliness. It'll change in another generation anyway.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Davelli0331 said:


> Let "Society" worry about its definition of manliness. It'll change in another generation anyway.


Yes, "society" will publish its propaganda.

Primal attraction remains the same - and always will.


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## loving1 (Aug 5, 2013)

Personally I love it when my husband talks about his feelings with me. It's very flattering (and kind of a turn-on, LOL)! I love knowing that my big strong manly tough hardworking football-and-wrestling-fan etc husband can open up with me and be a softie in secret once in a while.  I'm not trying to turn him into a metrosexual or a "beta male" (I don't even know what that is outside of the context of dog packs?!) but it makes me feel very special that he can come to me with his feelings.

I don't think any woman would expect you to sit around blubbering about sunsets, but no woman wants a husband that is a brick wall to her emotionally. You can be a brick wall to the rest of the world if you want, but open up to your lady!


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Yes, "society" will publish its propaganda.
> 
> Primal attraction remains the same - and always will.


Does Our Brain Know Love Before We Do? | YourTango


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

OhGeesh said:


> Rolls based on gender is stupid!! Any man imo will be left in the dust if they don't embrace the softer side of life.


And that same man will be steamrolled if he doesn't learn how to be hard when need be.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_uRIMUBnvw


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

My husband is a hard working manly man, builds things with his hands, owns lots of tools, etc....yet he also manages to be able to discuss his feelings, discuss my feelings, romances me, and we make every effort to stay in love.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

FrenchFry said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I don't even care if that is asking too much, that's what I was looking for and got in droves.


As long as you don't initiate the "I'm more important than you" game, it should last.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

My wife or any other woman I have been with has ever tried to turn me into a woman. However I don't just grunt every response either, I do communicate. I guess I live in a different culture and just don't relate to what the OP is suggesting. Maybe provide some concrete examples of this feminization of males?


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

I don't care if my H chooses not to share his feelings unless those feelings are going to bite me in the ass down the road. 

Communication is what I need in a man, not some bimbo who thinks I am a mind reader.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Yes, "society" will publish its propaganda.
> 
> Primal attraction remains the same - and always will.


I was simplifying this a bit. Many powerful and wealthy business men and CEO's and things have a draw of females.

But also a male stripper does as well. Many of these ladies will desire them like they are candy, even if someone else has put their bodily fluids on him.

When I see them, some of their stuff looks "corny" to me, but if it is what stokes their boats...


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

drerio said:


> My wife or any other woman I have been with has ever tried to turn me into a woman. However I don't just grunt every response either, I do communicate. I guess I live in a different culture and just don't relate to what the OP is suggesting. Maybe provide some concrete examples of this feminization of males?


There are many laws and social normals which are clearly against a man ever holding a "dominant" position within a male and female relationship. Let a group of friends hear that the husband is "leading" their agenda, and it will not be looked upon highly.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

treyvion said:


> There are many laws and social normals which are clearly against a man ever holding a "dominant" position within a male and female relationship. Let a group of friends hear that the husband is "leading" their agenda, and it will not be looked upon highly.


Example, I still don't know what you are talking about. I can't relate at all to vague suspicions of "what laws and social norms"? To me, real man has a sense of confident calmness without a chip on his shoulder. What law or social norm is there against such behavior?


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I had a lot of guy friends when I was younger. We talked about everything, horsed around, complimented each other, drove each other to success in our studies and work and were mutually supportive when someone was having a tough time, at home or at school, etc. Sat on the curb eating ice cream together, learned how to drive stick shifts, etc.

As an adult I look for the same thing when it comes to men. Just a grown up version. Nobody is trying to make anybody get all touchy feely, so far as I'm concerned I'm just expecting that mature men won't have put on so many layers of armor over who they were when they were boys. I expect the men in my life to be the sweet and sensitive boys that I knew in my youth, with the advantage of experience and knowledge added to it. Experience and knowledge doesn't have to be "manly things," it's okay to know how to paint furniture like Martha Stewart, make jams and preserves (this is a man thing in my father's family, actually as canning is hot unthankful work,) mend a broken heart, and mend a hole in a pair of pants. The ability to fit into a family or a home or a partnership consists of a lot more than stoicism and a paycheck.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

drerio said:


> Example, I still don't know what you are talking about. I can't relate at all to vague suspicions of "what laws and social norms"? To me, real man has a sense of confident calmness without a chip on his shoulder. What law or social norm is there against such behavior?


Look at all the maritial obligations after a divorce which force a man to an unfair burden even if he's been cheated on.

Within the child support and custody systems, the males are assumed to be the perpetrator and the reason the relationship didn't work out, looked at as a criminal. Also all the assumptions are in the womans favor.

Socially, is your group of friends really going to be OK, if your husband is the "head of the household", "wears the pants"? Is this really going to be a cool look to them?

What about the dating world? A bunch of double standards there. That basic assumption is that the females time is more valuable than the males.

I was bitter about it for a while after being cheated on and dogged out. I'm not anymore, because my basic principles do not allow for entitlement within any of my friends, woman or not. I expect people to give what they are willing to take.

A good woman is not going to get away with all the leverages this society allows over you. She wouldn't want to do you like that.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

The "old fashioned guy" has been turned into a means to an end and often easily used since he is predictable.
I'm no longer an "old fashioned guy".


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Look at all the maritial obligations after a divorce which force a man to an unfair burden even if he's been cheated on.
> 
> Within the child support and custody systems, the males are assumed to be the perpetrator and the reason the relationship didn't work out, looked at as a criminal. Also all the assumptions are in the womans favor.
> 
> ...


My BIL who divorced his first wife years ago after being cheated on, got primary custody of his thee children. He had a good lawyer. My wife expects me to be the leader of my family. As I said, this appears to be very cultural, because as long as you are not abusive (which is not "manly"), in my culture there no stigma against "head of the household assumptions". But, as head of a household comes a lot of responsibility that some are not ready to take on. A level of maturity along with love and respect for your SO/wife.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

hookares said:


> The "old fashioned guy" has been turned into a means to an end and often easily used since he is predictable.
> I'm no longer an "old fashioned guy".


The entire system and social norms adapted to take advantage of that. I mean what really kills me is they have it cookie cuttered so perfectly, but are literally giving crumbs or less to that guy, because they know he is obligated by his chivalry.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

treyvion said:


> The entire system and social norms adapted to take advantage of that. I mean what really kills me is they have it cookie cuttered so perfectly, but are literally giving crumbs or less to that guy, because they know he is obligated by his chivalry.


This is because the "old fashioned guy" does not have much to offer in emotional interaction with a woman. We expect more than our grandmothers because we see ourselves as more than a mother and housewife. We also work and support ourselves, we have careers, we don't have to bear children if we don't want to. 

The women who take advantage of the "old fashioned guy" is the SAHM who carries on multiple EA's in order to fulfill her emotional needs. Women have emotional needs and they will seek to fulfill them elsewhere if they can't get that at home. Then when the hubby finds out he says, "See I'm a hardworking man and she cheated on me anyway."

Nowadays, working, bringing home a paycheck and paying the bills is DOING THE BARE MINIMUM in a relationship. Single people need a roof over their head if they are not living with mom and dad. So the guy would be working hard anyway, only just for himself. I suggest that men work hard for themselves first so they won't come into marriages with the mentality of "I'm working hard for you". And find a woman who works hard as well and has a career. Don't choose a woman who wants to be a SAHM and supported by you, then complain that she wants to be supported by you.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

techmom said:


> This is because the "old fashioned guy" does not have much to offer in emotional interaction with a woman. We expect more than our grandmothers because we see ourselves as more than a mother and housewife. We also work and support ourselves, we have careers, we don't have to bear children if we don't want to.
> 
> The women who take advantage of the "old fashioned guy" is the SAHM who carries on multiple EA's in order to fulfill her emotional needs. Women have emotional needs and they will seek to fulfill them elsewhere if they can't get that at home. Then when the hubby finds out he says, "See I'm a hardworking man and she cheated on me anyway."
> 
> Nowadays, working, bringing home a paycheck and paying the bills is DOING THE BARE MINIMUM in a relationship. Single people need a roof over their head if they are not living with mom and dad. So the guy would be working hard anyway, only just for himself. I suggest that men work hard for themselves first so they won't come into marriages with the mentality of "I'm working hard for you". And find a woman who works hard as well and has a career. Don't choose a woman who wants to be a SAHM and supported by you, then complain that she wants to be supported by you.


I was alluding to they will take advantage of a guy who will do his part, treat her like gold, so her emotional and physical needs can be met at home if she choose to.

In a SAHM or SAHD situation, there is a way to do it where no one is being taken advantage of. It's your job to make each others life better, and it doesn't necessarily take $$$, it could be you use your time to assist the cash earner, saving them time and energy.

I wouldn't complain about a SAHM situation as long as she wasn't laying up off of me, leaving all the household and child responsibilities on me and/or cheating on me, also bleeding out all the money is a no-go!

I still believe males are males and females are females. So there are nuggets of the natural gender norms that each should be happy to provide for each other.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

My ex stayed at home for the most part so she could raise the two kids she labeled as mine which she bore from cheating with two other guys. She never held down a job. And, now that she is homeless, she still isn't finding work of any kind.
I guess it's just one more thing she can blame on me.:rofl:


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

wanttofix said:


> I am not prince charming because life isn't a Disney story. I am an old fashion kind of guy. Work hard to provide a living and through this should prove my love. Words in my family are words and have no meaning to them. Actions is what it's about. Prove you're a hard worker and the person you love will love you endlessly.
> 
> Why exactly do women try to turn a man into a woman? I think what I mean is talking about your feelings. I show and express my love to another, but you want for me to share my feelings? Maybe trying to turn them into metrosexuals, barf. I am not miss daisy, I get dirty and love hard work, sorry.
> 
> What do you guys think? Is the old fashion man being tossed aside for a female version?


There are LOTS of women who LOVE old fashioned men. There are LOTS of women who love metrosexual men.

Heck there are women who are in love with homosexual men are are delusional.

Different strokes for different folks. People need to spend more time on the search without sacrificing what they need in a spouse and less time complaining or trying to change their spouse into someone else.

My wife and I both love the person we are individually. We respect each other and balance each other.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Since when did "old fashioned" or manly men not profess love for their wives openly. Growing up all the men in my family were blue collar types. They did break backing labor during the day at work, with a lot of overtime and sometimes a second job. Some of them even built their homes with their own hands. But they still told their wives they loved them and were affectionate. 

I guess I am totally missing the connection between being manly and not telling the mother of your kids that you love her. Nothing manlier in my opinion. The OP indicated that this was not important.

I learned from my pops who was a manly man. You carry your family on your shoulders, you love them, honor them and protect them. I totally disagree that words mean nothing.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Just another thread in which an emotionally constipated man complains about not being accepted for who he is. And a 6 month old OP at that!

TechMom...Here Here, or is it Hear Hear, or here ye here ye... You get my drift...

ETA, wiped the smudge off my glasses. Correction, not a 6 month old thread...


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> Since when did "old fashioned" or manly men not profess love for their wives openly. Growing up all the men in my family were blue collar types. They did break backing labor during the day at work, with a lot of overtime and sometimes a second job. Some of them even built their homes with their own hands. But they still told their wives they loved them and were affectionate.
> 
> I guess I am totally missing the connection between being manly and not telling the mother of your kids that you love her. Nothing manlier in my opinion. The OP indicated that this was not important.
> 
> I learned from my pops who was a manly man. You carry your family on your shoulders, you love them, honor them and protect them. I totally disagree that words mean nothing.


This day and age how many of the men like your father will be able to be committed at that level without being taken for granted?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

techmom said:


> This is because the "old fashioned guy" does not have much to offer in emotional interaction with a woman. We expect more than our grandmothers because we see ourselves as more than a mother and housewife. We also work and support ourselves, we have careers, we don't have to bear children if we don't want to.
> 
> The women who take advantage of the "old fashioned guy" is the SAHM who carries on multiple EA's in order to fulfill her emotional needs. Women have emotional needs and they will seek to fulfill them elsewhere if they can't get that at home. Then when the hubby finds out he says, "See I'm a hardworking man and she cheated on me anyway."
> 
> Nowadays, working, bringing home a paycheck and paying the bills is DOING THE BARE MINIMUM in a relationship. Single people need a roof over their head if they are not living with mom and dad. So the guy would be working hard anyway, only just for himself. I suggest that men work hard for themselves first so they won't come into marriages with the mentality of "I'm working hard for you". And find a woman who works hard as well and has a career. Don't choose a woman who wants to be a SAHM and supported by you, then complain that she wants to be supported by you.


The OP's definition of an old fashioned hard working man is flawed in my opinion. Think back to your grandfather or even great grandfather if you can go back that far. Were they emotionless or did they show you affection? I guess this thread bothers me because it implies that previous generations of men were clueless on how to love. If this was true a lot of us wouldn't even be here!!!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

treyvion said:


> This day and age how many of the men like your father will be able to be committed at that level without being taken for granted?



Ridiculous. Such a man is a treasure that many good women would cherish. Some poeple are just jerks; just as many men take their partners for granted as women. Use care when selecting a partner; you can't avoid or foresee everything, but you can weed out a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

The OP's first thread is a bit telling:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/83506-loss-words.html


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Ridiculous. Such a man is a treasure that many good women would cherish. Some poeple are just jerks; just as many men take their partners for granted as women. Use care when selecting a partner; you can't avoid or foresee everything, but you can weed out a lot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree that there are good women out there who would appreciate men like this. I am one of them, and I have a woman who greatly appreciates me and deeply loves me. SimplyAmorous and her husband are another great example.

The thing is though, there is most certainly a certain entitlement complex, the princessification if you will, among many women today that they can not only have it all, they DESERVE it all simply because they are women. It is taken for granted. Look at the little posters and crap all over facebook about real men, and how they are supposed to treat women, and what women deserve, and all that. I do understand that the premise of those CAN and SHOULD go both ways, but the fact is, they are not being presented in a both ways sort of manner.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> The OP's definition of an old fashioned hard working man is flawed in my opinion. Think back to your grandfather or even great grandfather if you can go back that far. Were they emotionless or did they show you affection? I guess this thread bothers me because it implies that previous generations of men were clueless on how to love. If this was true a lot of us wouldn't even be here!!!


Thank you for prompting this cause I love talking about my father, who walked on water as far as I was concerned.

The only thing he could cook was eggs and creamed chipped beef, but he earned a very good living, fixed everything, danced, told jokes and loved life. He told me often how pretty I was, hugged me, held my hand, stroked my back and tried very hard to explain to me that for every boy I met who wasn't worth the dirt on the bottom of shoes, there just as many who were and I just needed to learn the difference. He taught me so many things about life and love because he loved life and loved big!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

sam said: The thing is though, there is most certainly a certain entitlement complex, the princessification if you will, among many women today that they can not only have it all, they DESERVE it all simply because they are women. It is taken for granted. Look at the little posters and crap all over facebook about real men, and how they are supposed to treat women, and what women deserve, and all that. I do understand that the premise of those CAN and SHOULD go both ways, but the fact is, they are not being presented in a both ways sort of manner."

So you don't compare that with men thinking they are entitled to young porn-star looking women...the ones they continually post pictures of and comments about? Not necessarily on FB but in other ways?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Ridiculous. Such a man is a treasure that many good women would cherish. Some poeple are just jerks; just as many men take their partners for granted as women. Use care when selecting a partner; you can't avoid or foresee everything, but you can weed out a lot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The right woman would treat this man like gold, and he will treat her like gold too. It's just that there are so many wrong people, so many people abusing the system, knowing all the ways of a giving, loving, generous but strong and loyal man.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

treyvion said:


> This day and age how many of the men like your father will be able to be committed at that level without being taken for granted?


So should we stop being men just because there is a chance the one we chose might flake out on us? 

Overall I think men like my father would fare very well. They didn't have cosmo and other resources telling us what women wanted back then. He was always himself. A giant of a man with tremendous drive and a killer sense of humor.

He was working multiple gigs when I was coming up and it had no affect on how much love he showed me and my moms. Who wouldn't appreciate that? I'm a carbon copy of him and I don't get the feeling at all that my wife is taking me for granted.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> So should we stop being men just because there is a chance the one we chose might flake out on us?
> 
> Overall I think men like my father would fare very well. They didn't have cosmo and other resources telling us what women wanted back then. He was always himself. A giant of a man with tremendous drive and a killer sense of humor.
> 
> He was working multiple gigs when I was coming up and it had no affect on how much love he showed me and my moms. Who wouldn't appreciate that? I'm a carbon copy of him and I don't get the feeling at all that my wife is taking me for granted.


It's great when a woman lets a man feel like a man!


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> sam said: The thing is though, there is most certainly a certain entitlement complex, the princessification if you will, among many women today that they can not only have it all, they DESERVE it all simply because they are women. It is taken for granted. Look at the little posters and crap all over facebook about real men, and how they are supposed to treat women, and what women deserve, and all that. I do understand that the premise of those CAN and SHOULD go both ways, but the fact is, they are not being presented in a both ways sort of manner."
> 
> So you don't compare that with men thinking they are entitled to young porn-star looking women...the ones they continually post pictures of and comments about? Not necessarily on FB but in other ways?


No. I don't compare the two for a couple of reasons. The first is that I don't really think that is any different, or in any greater amount than women who do the same thing with their hollywood hunks, the things they read, romantic comedy characters. Either men or women who take that to far down the fantasy route expecting reality out of it are in for a world of hurt in their relationship. The second is, yes, men who do that and have that expectation are damaging their relationships, but two wrongs don't make a right and I was talking specifically about the recent acceptance of the expectation that men put women on pedistals.

Take for example the Girls Night Out phenomena. Put aside the general advise given here at TAM that they can be bad news if inappropriate. Out in the real world, a woman wants to go out drinking and dancing with her friends at the club, the guys Nah, I don't want you doing that, it's imediately turned into him being controlling, not trusting her, all that crap. A guy wants to go out with his buddies, how dare he leave his woman alone...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sam...both of those scenarios go both ways. There are just as many entitled men as women and the entitled ones always have something sh*tty to say about what they deserve and who they deserve it from.

Why just pick on the princesses?

The boy prince syndrome is just as prevelant.

That was my point.

There are jerks of both genders.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Sam...both of those scenarios go both ways. There are just as many entitled men as women and the entitled ones always have something sh*tty to say about what they deserve and who they deserve it from.
> 
> Why just pick on the princesses?
> 
> ...


I agree completely that it goes both ways. There are jerks of both genders, and you know me well enough around here to know that I have called many men out on it too.

This thread was about the female kind of jerk, and I really do think that in current US culture at least, women get much more of a pass from a societal standpoint than men do.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

sam said: "...and I really do think that in current US culture at least, women get much more of a pass from a societal standpoint than men do."


A "pass" on being entitled?

From whom, other entitled women?

If you don't give them a "pass", who do you think does? And if only from other entitled women, what do you expect?

I certainly don't think there are more entitled women than men, but you don't seem to be using the same criteria to judge them both.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> You definitely have different FB friends than I do.
> 
> Not to say it doesn't happen, but the problem is these generalities that become gospel in our circles might not have strict application beyond them.
> 
> ...


You really have a lot of excellent points here, and it is important for us to keep in mind that what we see here on TAM is not really representative of the general population.


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## badcompany (Aug 4, 2010)

samyeagar said:


> I agree that there are good women out there who would appreciate men like this. I am one of them, and I have a woman who greatly appreciates me and deeply loves me. SimplyAmorous and her husband are another great example.
> 
> The thing is though, there is most certainly a certain entitlement complex, the princessification if you will, among many women today that they can not only have it all, they DESERVE it all simply because they are women. It is taken for granted. Look at the little posters and crap all over facebook about real men, and how they are supposed to treat women, and what women deserve, and all that. I do understand that the premise of those CAN and SHOULD go both ways, but the fact is, they are not being presented in a both ways sort of manner.


Good post SY I have to agree. I've done a fair amount of dating in the last 6 weeks and see a lot of this in women....and lets just say my body language doesn't hide my disappointment.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

wanttofix said:


> I am not prince charming because life isn't a Disney story.* I am an old fashion kind of guy. Work hard to provide a living and through this should prove my love.* Words in my family are words and have no meaning to them. Actions is what it's about. Prove you're a hard worker and the person you love will love you endlessly.
> 
> Why exactly do women try to turn a man into a woman? I think what I mean is talking about your feelings. I show and express my love to another, but you want for me to share my feelings? Maybe trying to turn them into metrosexuals, barf. I am not miss daisy, I get dirty and love hard work, sorry.
> 
> What do you guys think? Is the old fashion man being tossed aside for a female version?


Can I say your post has "attitude" in it...you sound angry and Resentful that a woman could possibly want something more from you..with the  comment...and that's Ok.. I am assuming you have been very hurt here, you are left reeling...trying to understand... 

Turning this around, your opening words puts me in mind of a female poster getting upset that her husband wants more sex, how dare him, why can't HE be satisfied... (we see that a lot here too)......and in that case, I would try to persuade her to SEE HER HUSBAND's NEED in this.. just as , with your post, I will try to persuade YOU to see the woman's NEED....as it is an emotional need... a couple needs to come together and HEAR each other....

There are 10 emotional needs addressed in this Book to help couples understand each other and what can happen when we allow them to slide in marriage *>>>* 
His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage  



> 10 Emotional needs:
> 
> 
> 1. *Admiration*
> ...










 Emotional Needs Questionnaire









My husband would be considered an Older Fashioned man by many in today's society ....in a variety of ways... 

*BUT*....he's never struggled to share his feelings with me.. if he did.. we would not have lasted.. this is NOT a female trait.. this is a HUMAN trait... men have feelings too... you may have learned to push them down, you may not feel they are necessary -because maybe you are geared more a *THINKER *over a *FEELER *(on temperament tests)... maybe you are High on "*Acts of SERVICE*" and not "*words of Affirmation*".... could be many maybe's here...

And your wife could be on the other side of this spectrum...and needed you to come half way to meet her.. 

I would not at all enjoy being with a Robot who went to work every day, and didn't take the time to talk to me about our lives...share with me of his day..laugh with me, show me affection filled with meaningful WORDS..you saying "*Words in my family are words and have no meaning to them.*"... maybe it's just the way it is worded.. but comes off "very cold".. devoid of feeling.

Sometimes it's all in the attitude..we can do ALL the RIGHT THINGS but it be destroyed with our attitudes... or how we respond. 

Heck if I didn't share my life and feelings with HIM..he'd think I was going astray...and he'd probably be right ! .... Some men need a little more BETA to keep a woman happy.. some men need a little more ALPHA (the MANLY) to keep a woman happy...there is always a balance.......if she is giving you some feedback.. by all means...please listen to her..

Differences here..



> The *Alpha Traits* are those associated with classic “manly man” strengths. Power, dominance, physical ability, bravery, wealth, cool and confidence. Oh and good genes. These are the things that attract women and turn them on sexually. The Alpha Traits are linked to the dopamine response in women.
> 
> *Alpha *= attraction building = Dopamine = In Love = Excitement





> The *Beta Traits* are those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience. These all create a sense of comfort and safety for the woman, and relax her because she feels that if she became pregnant, the Beta Trait male isn’t going to abandon her and the baby.
> 
> *Beta *= comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"


So Alpha Traits create attraction and that “in love” feeling, and Beta Traits create the pair bond and makes her feel relaxed enough to have sex. You need a balance of both Alpha and Beta in a marriage to maximize her desire to have sex with you.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> You definitely have different FB friends than I do.
> 
> Not to say it doesn't happen, but the problem is these generalities that become gospel in our circles might not have strict application beyond them.
> 
> ...


This is a very good explanation and could pretty much be applied to most of the groupthink "rules" propagated on TAM.

You always have to take everything you read on TAM with a big grain of salt. You have a lot of very like-minded people corroborating, repeating, and reaffirming each others' POVs until those POVs become accepted as fact just because they've been thrown around so much. Over time those POVs get taken to their extremes until they become absolutes that surely must be applicable to the vast majority of married couples.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> I agree that there are good women out there who would appreciate men like this. I am one of them, and I have a woman who greatly appreciates me and deeply loves me. SimplyAmorous and her husband are another great example.
> 
> The thing is though, there is most certainly a certain entitlement complex, the princessification if you will, among many women today that they can not only have it all, they DESERVE it all simply because they are women. It is taken for granted. Look at the little posters and crap all over facebook about real men, and how they are supposed to treat women, and what women deserve, and all that. I do understand that the premise of those CAN and SHOULD go both ways, but the fact is, they are not being presented in a both ways sort of manner.


I don't think this is a womens issue, I think there is a general sense of entitlement thoughout society. While women of today are certainly looking for different things then their grandmothers, men of today are not looking for what their grandfathers were. Do you think our grandfathers thought they were entitled to supermodels or pornstars? Of course not, they wanted good women and looked at playboy in their private time. You'd never have heard my grandfather on here b!tching that his wife gained some weight and didn't service him as often as he wanted so he was divorcing her. BUT, he could also slap her around to keep her in line, so not everything was great. Times were different, not better, just different.
I'm a big proponent of the philosophy of applying the same standards you want applied to you to your partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> samyeagar said:
> 
> 
> > I agree that there are good women out there who would appreciate men like this. I am one of them, and I have a woman who greatly appreciates me and deeply loves me. SimplyAmorous and her husband are another great example.
> ...



Ok, be careful though. We generally use the word 'entitled' as a negative word but if someone is involved in a marriage where there is abuse, either physical or emotional, it is sexless or there is infidelity, we are frequently ... and often rightfully ... quick to advise to divorce with the words 'you deserve better' or 'you deserve to be happy.' Deserve is just another word for entitled and sometimes that isn't necessarily a bad thing. The mindset of older generations (when I think of my grandparents) was often that you stuck with it no matter what you deserved ... and that wasn't always a good thing.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

OP I understand what you are saying. I feel it's a generation thing. Nowadays a wife doesn't need a provider, she can make her own money. She also can go to a sperm bank to get pregnant. I feel it is the ugly consequence of the feminist movement and I am a woman. Men are disposable and not valued for being provider and protector anymore. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but a lot of women look to men for a relationship like a girlfriend. In my early years of marriage I relied on my husband for everything. I noticed I was exhausting him by being so needy. As I grew I realized to appreciate him for being a man, working hard, chilling on the couch, going into the garage and most importantly not wanting to talk all the time. The more I realized this the more happy he became as I. He now knows I fully embrace his masculinity and I respect him very much for being that provider and protector of our family. We are real traditional people though, he makes the living and I am a SAHM.

Try to explain to your wife what you need. Also a strong man will seek to meet his wife's needs. If she needs more "I love you's", I suggest you give it to her. As a result she will probably want to be more intimate with you as well.

Good Luck


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

over20 said:


> OP I understand what you are saying. I feel it's a generation thing. Nowadays a wife doesn't need a provider, she can make her own money. She also can go to a sperm bank to get pregnant. I feel it is the ugly consequence of the feminist movement and I am a woman.


This thread may very well turn me into a feminist and I'm a dude. Not needing a provider? Two incomes is certainly better than one. Regarding the sperm bank comment, I do not know any gals that dream of the father of their children being an anonymous donor. I think most people can appreciate the value that a positive male model like a father could provide.


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> This thread may very well turn me into a feminist and I'm a dude. Not needing a provider? Two incomes is certainly better than one. Regarding the sperm bank comment, I do not know any gals that dream of the father of their children being an anonymous donor. I think most people can appreciate the value that a positive male model like a father could provide.


Good Lord I don't want it turn into a feminist thread either. To many of those. I was just trying to say some women don't see the full value of a man beyond companionship. They don't appreciate the masculine traits.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> This thread may very well turn me into a feminist and I'm a dude. Not needing a provider? Two incomes is certainly better than one. Regarding the sperm bank comment, I do not know any gals that dream of the father of their children being an anonymous donor. I think most people can appreciate the value that a positive male model like a father could provide.


With the current economy the reality is most people are going to need two incomes, doesn't matter whether you are with a room mate or your significant other.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

My faith is western entitled culture is lacking. The entitled princess syndrome is just one manifestation of a society that has lost it's core beliefs while trying to create some kind of egalitarian utopia. There are many more examples of men behaving badly. How many men (public, powerful or otherwise) actually take responsibility for their actions these days? It's become very rare. At the end of the day you can't reverse thousands of years of evolution in one or two generations. I believe most people act on their primal instincts in private, but since its not fashionalble they tow the party line in public. Eventually the PC pendulum will swing back to reflect our natural reality. For now just act like a man and don't worry about the people who deny their DNA.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Enginerd said:


> My faith is western entitled culture is lacking. The entitled princess syndrome is just one manifestation of a society that has lost it's core beliefs while trying to create some kind of egalitarian utopia. There are many more examples of men behaving badly. How many men (public, powerful or otherwise) actually take responsibility for their actions these days? It's become very rare. At the end of the day you can't reverse thousands of years of evolution in one or two generations. I believe most people act on their primal instincts in private, but since its not fashionalble they tow the party line in public. Eventually the PC pendulum will swing back to reflect our natural reality. For now just act like a man and don't worry about the people who deny their DNA.


I've heard it said that historically, most great civilizations had reached their zenith around 200 years.
After that, they went into a state of pre collapse and then collapsed.
Marriage being the foundation of society, I sometimes wonder what's in store for the West.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

My only take away from this thread is to be thankful my husband isn't a man who worries about his masculinity or what it means if he shares his feelings with me.He's a man,he knows he's a man and that's all he cares about regarding masculinity.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

wanttofix said:


> I am not prince charming because life isn't a Disney story.


Well, dont feel bad...the VAST majority of them are NOT really Princesses despite acting like one...:lol:


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