# So why do cheaters cheat?



## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

Focusing a little on the other side, I'm sure everyone wants to know this.

Can anyone give their educated opinions?


----------



## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

I would assume that most of us, in this forum are not cheaters and thus, can only speculate? I know that my brother in law, cheated on my sister, purely because he had opportunity, combined with the mentality of a teenager. Unfortunately, my sister did not D his ass and will suffer the same fate again in the near future. That being said, from what I understand, most men cheat due to opportunity and lust, while most women cheat for attention.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Maybe from this thread, we can get close to a definitive list of why cheaters cheat.

I'll contribute:

1. Exit affair. they already checked out of the marriage / relationship. My exH had one of these. I found out later on that over the 2 year separation, he met someone else and married her after our divorce completed. 

I have no sympathy for his Exit Affair Partner since our society reminds us that YOUNGER Women are all the rage!

2. Poor boundaries: We're told these days that it's hip to have opposite sex friends (OSFs) these days. With so many options for the types of relationships that we can have with others, some of us forget the kind of rules / boundaries to keep them that way.

3. My FT partner gives me 80% or more of what I am looking for in a relationship............ so I am looking for that other ?% elsewhere. 

I think I was in this kind of relationship with my fiance until I put a lid on it. He outed himself once by asking me "if we go to that heavy metal music festival, are you going to watch every band with me or are you going to go sightseeing in the area?" So I guess his just a friend ex actually sits through every concert.


----------



## Sudra (Oct 16, 2013)

Selfish, a sense of entitlement, need for external validation, poor boundaries. Most fall into one or more of these.


----------



## Jmom (Nov 8, 2013)

Feeling so lonely and hopeless in a marriage that there doesn't seem like much to lose.


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Angry at their spouse and are so passive-aggressive that they'd rather cheat to get back at their spouse, for whatever it was, than have a conversation. 

So selfish and entitled that they want to and don't think it's any of their partner's business if they just want to go out and get a little strange.

Desperate for the ego-stroke of all that fawning attention from their affair partner. 

Really crappy boundaries.

And those are just what was going on with my cheating spouse. I'm sure there are other reasons. But all the reasons in the world pretty much boil down to this: wanted to and could.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Rowan said:


> Angry at their spouse and are so passive-aggressive that they'd rather cheat to get back at their spouse, for whatever it was, than have a conversation.
> 
> So selfish and entitled that they want to and don't think it's any of their partner's business if they just want to go out and get a little strange.
> 
> ...


I think there is an element of some people who feel that even their partners cannot tell them what to do and how to live. It usually manifest itself with that person doing some or every thing opposite of what the other has asked for. 

It's strange that therapists don't understand this. All they ask is "did you make yourself clear" and when you say yes, they have nothing more in their toolkit to help you.


----------



## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

I don't think you will ever be able to get a educated point of view on this. The truth is who really knows why they did what they did. There are so many excuses that just baffle my mind. 

I think my favorite line that I heard is "I made a mistake. or It was on accident" I think the only person that made the mistake was the Betrayed spouse for trusting a looser. People that cheat can claim what ever they want but in truth and it society and our culture regardless how popular it is now people will always think less of them and they will never over come that. Just like a thief once a thief always a thief. 

I can only say I am sure from reading post on here that there are at least a few people that are remorseful and are trying to be better people. Its probably the only good in all this bad. 

When you figure this out let me know. As of now I consider myself uneducated and I am not sure I will ever learn or understand the logic. 

Clay


----------



## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Because they can.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Chris989 said:


> Because they can.


Oh dear. Let's engage in no enlightenment whatsoever.


----------



## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Oh dear. Let's engage in no enlightenment whatsoever.


That is as enlightening as you need, or could ever want.

Cheaters cheat because they can. It says everything.

They see the sweets on the shelf, the shiny thing, the thing they WANT and take it. They do not care of the consequences, of the betrayal, the hurt, the broken promises, the lives ruined.

They cheat because they can.


----------



## Jmom (Nov 8, 2013)

I posted above earlier. I had an ea, recently, and it was the biggest mistake i have ever made. I posted a longer version of what happened on another thread. I certainly take total responsibility for screwing up horribly, but i thought i could offer a little insight, if anyone wants it. Obviously every cheater is different. For me, i had a husband who avoided intimacy, emotional and physical, for at least 7 or 8 years of our marriage, by playing thousands of hours of video games that he concealed, saying he was working on his computer in his office. I talked to him many times about how bad things were, but we couldn't reconnect emotionally.
I reached a low point of loneliness and desperation, and when i got a little attention and interest from other people, got sucked in, knowing how wrong it was, but without the willpower to stop it. It felt too good to be noticed, even in such a dysfunctional way. Now, 6 weeks after confessing to husband, i am dealing with the fallout, much worse than i ever imagined. I shut down all contact with om the day i confessed, closed the email account, started therapy, and started a sex addicts 12 step group, both to help me and to demonstrate my willingness to make amends. It's a nightmare. I'm sure i'll get some angry feedback, but i wanted to post what was going on in my head at the tome, in case it's informative for anyone else.


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

People are selfish and don't think about their actions impact on others. On top of that, it is very easy to have the "grass is greener on the other side" mentality. And to make matters worse, married life, especially with kids, can be very stressful.

What it creates is an environment where it becomes all too easy to have someone new and exciting come in and create a chemical high that allows for escaping currently uninteresting marriages.

These people don't think about the consequences of their actions, or that they had these feelings with their first partner, or that their new partners will have challenges of their own and eventually get to the same stage.

It doesn't help that we're all biologically wired to want to reproduce.


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Rushwater said:


> I would assume that most of us, in this forum are not cheaters and thus, can only speculate? I know that my brother in law, cheated on my sister, purely because he had opportunity, combined with the mentality of a teenager. Unfortunately, my sister did not D his ass and will suffer the same fate again in the near future. That being said, from what I understand, most men cheat due to opportunity and lust, while most women cheat for attention.


No one is a cheater until he/she cheats. A person who considers him/herself morally pure can be vulnerable to temptation too when the situation arises, thinking "well, it's different for me, I have good reasons." I think there are people who can probably be defined as "cheaters" by nature, but I don't think all people who ever have an affair fall into this category. Not justifying it, just saying that a lot of people fail to follow their values at some point.


----------



## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Daisy10 said:


> Focusing a little on the other side, I'm sure everyone wants to know this.
> 
> Can anyone give their educated opinions?


Because they don't know how to communicate how they feel. 

Don't you think if your spouse told you I am unhappy or falling out of love with you that you would have done something about it ?.. 

How does someone just fall out of love with someone after 19 years ( my situation ).. This just isn't something that happens overnight.. 

Instead of looking at the big picture they just eventually check out.. They look to protect themselves and their feelings at the sacrifice of others.. There are some real emotional issues going on that probably only seeking good professional help would help fix this.. 

You will get tons of because they can, but in the end we all know something fell apart somewhere.. They just lacked the tools to express they needed help.. 

It does not justify the affair by any means.. 

But as you can see by several people here once the affair is exposed they sometimes realize giant error and work very hard to fix the marriage.. They are now confronted with the problem and now have to address it or not.. 

But trust me not addressing the problem will not make the problem go away.. These people will always have these issues. But now that this has happened it will just accelerate the problem even faster.. What might have taken 19 years with me will now happen in several years with my STBXW new relationship.. 

Cheaters have a skewed thought on relationships and what they need. I mean really lets think about this.. In your 20s you were looking for that hot body or well put together person.. But as you get older you realize that its not about looks or even money but the person inside.. 

What is exactly this LOVE that people are looking for ? I think over time it changes.. It sure isn't the same for me as when I got married.. My children changed that also for me.. 

Who knows maybe cheaters are looking for that spark and excitement of when you first met.. 

Sorry Grow the fvck up.. Life isn't about being the same its about change..


----------



## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

John Lee said:


> No one is a cheater until he/she cheats. A person who considers him/herself morally pure can be vulnerable to temptation too when the situation arises, thinking "well, it's different for me, I have good reasons." I think there are people who can probably be defined as "cheaters" by nature, but I don't think all people who ever have an affair fall into this category. Not justifying it, just saying that a lot of people fail to follow their values at some point.


Well, John, speak for yourself. No one is a murderer until he/she murders, right? No on is a molesterer until they molest, right? Sheesh. Its not a matter of being "morally pure"... It's a matter of choice. It's a matter of making my marriage and children, my utmost priority, next to God. 

One does not have to be "morally pure" or perfect, to avoid "temptation". I never have been, NEVER WILL BE a cheater as I am sure most of the other posters on this forum feel the same way.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Rowan said:


> *Angry at their spouse and are so passive-aggressive that they'd rather cheat to get back at their spouse, for whatever it was, than have a conversation. *
> 
> So selfish and entitled that they want to and don't think it's any of their partner's business if they just want to go out and get a little strange.
> 
> ...



And some of us had conversations. LONG conversations. STRIDENT conversations. Tears were shed by both sides...and nothing changed. One month one person tried to work on the marriage...and the other had a grudge. And the next month they switched, because the recalcitrant spouse finally realized they were being an ass...but at this point the other was resentful for having their efforts thrown in their face and THEY were stubborn.

Lather...rinse...repeat.

Counseling? What was that? ADMITTING to other people we had a problem? Hell NO! Can't have that! Better to just...tough it out. Get used to things. Callous those feelings for the other person. This is 'normal', right? I mean...we've been doing it long enough...okay...it's OUR normal.

There are good days...and good weeks...but rarely good months. Expectations aren't met. Resentments build. Each says something hurtful to the other.

And then...someone makes you laugh. Just a buzz of conversation and a breezy manner. Someone who looks at life slightly more brightly.

So...you like to laugh. And everything is on the up and up. I mean...we are taking a conversation. A few words. A shared joke. Things that EVERY ONE OF US HAS DONE with someone we know.

Except the emotional goodies aren't really there at home. Not in the quantities you need. His work, her drinking, his video games, spending a night with the guys, Mega Mom who has time for EVERY FRIGGING PERSON ON THE PLANET...except hubby. Spin class...his stupid sports that happen every night, depression, a lump eating on the couch. Relationship clutter. Spousal replacement *which doesn't involve another person* Saves the self righteousness.

And that long conversation you had with the AP,where you come home, feeling a little bad for spending 'family time' with that Someone...wife doesn't even notice. Heck, maybe she's happy that you aren't around getting in the way of...whatever it is she does all day. Do you even know anymore?

And Ms. Breezy Fun and you continue to converse. It's the highlight of your whole day. Someone who doesn't think you are the pathetic nobody that you are treated as at home. Someone who looks forward to seeing you instead of that 'person' who is such an inconvenience and disappointment. Because after all, wife/hubby is SO perfect...

A month later and you start to feel guilty at spending all this time with the AP...so once again, you try to reconnect. And those layers of relationship callous gets your endeavors greeted with skepticism, disdain or indifference.

Or maybe she twigs onto the time you spend. Not in any kind of 'hey...we are getting to a bad place. Let's talk. Let's compromise. Maybe that counselor...not a bad idea.' 

Nope...passive aggressive "I am not speaking to you" but Ms. Breezy isn't identified as such. See YOU need to be a mind reader.

And you find out Ms. Breezy Fun has her own faults, troubles and relationship problems. She is just like you. You can relate to her emotional frustrations. So you vent to one another. And your orbits spin farther away from any other relationships and closer to each other.

There comes a point where you know you are doing wrong. There always is. It is a line in the emotional sand. And you step across it anyway. It doesn't have to be sex. It's a Choice. But there is so much sand and cludge in the relationship that you just don't care. 

After that, it's all over but the crying. Was this where you wanted to be? No. But it is where you find yourself...

But yeah...what I really mean to say is: sure...just pure selfishness. The BS is always a Saint. Always. God forbid anyone suggest that a cheater might have a sh*tty relationship they are dealing with and they just...wander off track.


----------



## Twofaces (Dec 5, 2011)

One word. Justification. Cheaters always have justificartion on their side. Thats the biggest bunch of BS and that does not stand for betrayed spouse in this instance.

I actually kinda wish you would come home today and find your spouse in bed with another person. See how you like their justification.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Jmom said:


> I posted above earlier. I had an ea, recently, and it was the biggest mistake i have ever made. I posted a longer version of what happened on another thread. I certainly take total responsibility for screwing up horribly, but i thought i could offer a little insight, if anyone wants it. Obviously every cheater is different. For me, i had a husband who avoided intimacy, emotional and physical, for at least 7 or 8 years of our marriage, by playing thousands of hours of video games that he concealed, saying he was working on his computer in his office. I talked to him many times about how bad things were, but we couldn't reconnect emotionally.
> I reached a low point of loneliness and desperation, and when i got a little attention and interest from other people, got sucked in, knowing how wrong it was, but without the willpower to stop it. It felt too good to be noticed, even in such a dysfunctional way. Now, 6 weeks after confessing to husband, i am dealing with the fallout, much worse than i ever imagined. I shut down all contact with om the day i confessed, closed the email account, started therapy, and started a sex addicts 12 step group, both to help me and to demonstrate my willingness to make amends. It's a nightmare. I'm sure i'll get some angry feedback, but i wanted to post what was going on in my head at the tome, in case it's informative for anyone else.


Yeah...I've been there too.

Tried talking...got shut out. Maybe your expectations were a bit high...but maybe his 'output' was minimal as well.

Conversations help...but only if he is willing to put down the damn controller and start talking too. Too many BS look at your Fall as an excuse to avoid ANY repair to the damage they caused a relationship. 

Good luck. I know it's hard.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I suppose it's worth it to them, despite the risks, to feel alive again, or desired, or a connection with someone. Things may even be otherwise good in the marriage - but either something is lacking, or isn't sufficient, and they either can't get it at home, or have tried and been refused.


----------



## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

JCD said:


> But yeah...what I really mean to say is: sure...just pure selfishness. The BS is always a Saint. Always. God forbid anyone suggest that a cheater might have a sh*tty relationship they are dealing with and they just...wander off track.


So, cheating is "wandering off track"? Wow, did your spouse do you wrong? I do not think that anyone here is saying that a betrayed spouse is a "saint". However, the potential "cheater" should engage the potential betrayed spouse, in correcting whatever are the underlying problems of said marriage are, rather than participate in nuking the marriage with an EA or PA. I mean really, if a person is that unhappy, that they can somehow justify an EA or PA, and is hopeless in engaging their spouse to repairing the marriage, why remain in the marriage in the first place?


----------



## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

To be a cheater, one has to be selfish, impatient, and/or want the easy way out. 

Yeah, so the sex has died down. If it bothers you so much then one has to have the tough discussions. It is hard to tell someone that you are starting to lose interest or that you are unhappy with that aspect of the relationship. If after voicing your concerns, you are not happy with it still then move on. 

Prior to my current marriage, I was ever so tempted to cheat on the first wife. I never did but the temptation was in the front of my mind. I was comfortable in my life but had no love for her. I was tempted to be cowardly and not tell her that I was done with the marriage. I did not want to be the bad guy. She was content. I had checked out years before. At work, I had someone who was incredibly attractive waiting for me. Finally, I just came forward and said that I was filing for divorce. It was not that I loved her still but I just did not want to be the one to deal the crushing blow. I could have easily been cowardly and got with the boss lady at work. In short, If I was a cheater I would have been impatient and been scared to face the reality at home.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Rushwater said:


> So, cheating is "wandering off track"? Wow, did your spouse do you wrong? I do not think that anyone here is saying that a betrayed spouse is a "saint". However, the potential "cheater" should engage the potential betrayed spouse, in correcting whatever are the underlying problems of said marriage are, rather than participate in nuking the marriage with an EA or PA. I mean really, if a person is that unhappy, that they can somehow justify an EA or PA, and is hopeless in engaging their spouse to repairing the marriage, why remain in the marriage in the first place?


I am sorry you didn't read what I wrote.

Frequently, much more frequently than a BS is comfortable with, the WS DID come to have that frigging conversation! Many MANY times.

And you know what the soon to be WS generally heard? "Whatever is making you unhappy isn't a big deal in my eyes, so I ain't changing. Get over it." Paraphrased of course.

Usually there are JUSTIFICATIONS about how the BS REALLY don't need to deal with these needs of the person with the problem...but that is all they are.

Why not just divorce? Because the WS first seldom planned on cheating and second, because they don't HATE the BS, they wanted them to change. Or they lost sight of what was important.

In any major accident, the National Transportation Safety Board does a full analysis. So they go to the train wreck and they look for the causes. What happened? Why was this rail bent? How was this person asleep at the switch? How do we avoid this in the future?

If the NTSB guy was using standard TAM guidelines, the train wrecked because it was selfish, evil or stupid. Probably all three. Introspection is not a huge feature here.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

They are to weak to leave an abusive marriage so they go off and find a bandaid. Even though the deciet is painful for the waywrard its alot less painful then dealing with an abusive marriage by leaving it.
But soon enough the pain of the deciet goes away and they have a second life that full fills them and continue the unhealthy way of life while they stop facing the reality of why they are doing something they never thought they would be doing in the first place.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Rushwater said:


> So, cheating is "wandering off track"? Wow, did your spouse do you wrong? I do not think that anyone here is saying that a betrayed spouse is a "saint". However, the potential "cheater" should engage the potential betrayed spouse, in correcting whatever are the underlying problems of said marriage are, rather than participate in nuking the marriage with an EA or PA. I mean really, if a person is that unhappy, that they can somehow justify an EA or PA, and is hopeless in engaging their spouse to repairing the marriage, why remain in the marriage in the first place?


Maybe the wayward is to happy and has a perfect marriage but feels that they don't diserve good things in their life or a good spouse and sabotage it by cheating?

Some betrayed spouses are saints over and over again only to face the emotional torture of a braoken wayward, and no matter how hard they try to fix their broken spouse the damage of the waywards past is behond the betrayeds capacity.

Some waywards are just broken and need help, professional help and choice to use booze, pills, weed and even AP's to bury the pain of their youth.

So ya some betrayed are saints!!!!


----------



## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

JCD said:


> I am sorry you didn't read what I wrote.
> 
> Frequently, much more frequently than a BS is comfortable with, the WS DID come to have that frigging conversation! Many MANY times.
> 
> ...


I actually DID read what you had said. That being said, I do not think that a WS is "evil", nor do I think that they are necessarily "stupid"; selfish, yes. So, now you are comparing cheating to a train wreck? Really? A train is an inanimate object that has no capacity for conscious decision making, and therefore, is not capable of being selfish, evil or stupid. Now, if for example, the engineer is DRUNK, than, I would definately qualify him as SELFISH, MAYBE EVIL, DEFINATELY STUPID!


----------



## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

the guy said:


> Maybe the wayward is to happy and has a perfect marriage but feels that they don't diserve good things in their life or a good spouse and sabotage it by cheating?
> 
> Some betrayed spouses are saints over and over again only to face the emotional torture of a braoken wayward, and no matter how hard they try to fix their broken spouse the damage of the waywards past is behond the betrayeds capacity.
> 
> ...


I have no problem with that.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Rushwater said:


> I actually DID read what you had said. That being said, I do not think that a WS is "evil", nor do I think that they are necessarily "stupid"; selfish, yes. So, now you are comparing cheating to a train wreck? Really? A train is an inanimate object that has no capacity for conscious decision making, and therefore, is not capable of being selfish, evil or stupid. Now, if for example, the engineer is DRUNK, than, I would definately qualify him as SELFISH, MAYBE EVIL, DEFINATELY STUPID!


No. I am saying that a confluence of events came together to put this multi ton bit of metal into the huge pile that it becomes.

There are generally MANY factors that go into an accident. And I believe generally, not universally, that very seldom does the Wayward get to where they are unassisted.

Take the one woman commenter here. She said her husband treated her like a maid and a roommate for YEARS. Do you think she NEVER discussed her dissatisfaction with that arrangement. Did he change?

Well...obviously not. But because she took that extra step of wrong, suddenly all the woes of the marriage get put on her head, not his. 

"Nothing justifies infidelity" generally means 'I don't want to own my contribution to where we are now."

Maybe it was a tiny contribution. Maybe, as in this case, it was pretty major.

I happen to agree with most of the posters. She should have divorced his ass without cheating.

Then, instead of being self righteous because he 'isn't a cheater', he'd be crying in his mom's basement about how he blew his marriage by being an ass.

Did her cheating make him less of an ass? No. Hearing her story without the cheating, would any of us question his culpability in screwing up a marriage? No. 

Guess what? He's STILL culpable. She's just worse.


----------



## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

JCD said:


> I am sorry you didn't read what I wrote.
> 
> Frequently, much more frequently than a BS is comfortable with, the WS DID come to have that frigging conversation! Many MANY times.
> 
> ...


Your simile is asinine. A train does not have choice.

Yet again you are insulting a swathe of people you know nothing about. 

Do you not think a BS thinks about what happened? About why?

Do you really think all us betrayed spouses simply dismiss it all with a "it was her/his choice and nothing to do with me?"

Do you really think, at 4am when you can't sleep again and haven't been able to for 12 months that we don't blame ourselves?

Do you really think that all of us betrayed spouses are such arrogant, self assured fools that this does not torture us for every minute of every day?

Do you really think that WE didn't have choices, chances to cheat and DECIDED NOT TO?

Your views are...odd.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Or how about this one....

The cheater has everything a big house lots or memberships and several cars to choose from to go shopping on a daily bases. 

A life style they grew up with and in this life style ther are or never have been any consequences for bad behavior cuz money always seemed to make the consequences go away.

So now a wayward spouse diserves to be happy and has a right to be happy and if that involves cheat well then what the betrayed doesn;t know won;t hurt them.

One can say the waywards is entitled to have there own toys, its their own business and beside what consequence could it possibly have if the affair is only for their own needs...who cares about others...its me me me!


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Rushwater said:


> that has no capacity for conscious decision making!


Sound like my cheating wife


----------



## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

JCD said:


> "Nothing justifies infidelity" generally means 'I don't want to own my contribution to where we are now."


No, it means that regardless of the "reasons" for cheating, the potential WS should have tried to repair said marriage or END IT rather than commit said infidelity. 



JCD said:


> Then, instead of being self righteous because he 'isn't a cheater', he'd be crying in his mom's basement about how he blew his marriage by being an ass.
> 
> Did her cheating make him less of an ass? No. Hearing her story without the cheating, would any of us question his culpability in screwing up a marriage? No.
> 
> Guess what? He's STILL culpable. She's just worse.


I do not think that anyone here is saying that a BS is not in some way responsible for a dysfunctional marriage. I AM SAYING that that is not justification for the cheating to occur!!!! But, I find it interesting that you are identifying more with the cheater, than with the cheated. Important note: they BOTH blew their marriage. Um, since when has cheating ever helped to improve a marriage?


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> Your simile is asinine. A train does not have choice.
> 
> Yet again you are insulting a swathe of people you know nothing about.
> 
> ...


Read my last post to understand the simile better.

Yeah...I'm sure it tortures some of them I've read it on the board.

And then I read the responses for the Usual Suspects and they show less than no introspection (extraspection? outerspection? Antispection?). They don't ask questions like "why" or dig into 'what happened next". Generally it's some generic pap which boils down to 'selfish, evil and/or stupid'.

Heck, look at Annie's thread. For dozens and dozens of pages, people were still defending the HUSBAND...or at least pointing all their ire at Annie without barely a twinge of sympathy.

And what is on display here? I offered perspectives from my own life and many other waywards...and descriptions of BS in how they treated their marriages.

Does anyone say 'Oh...I can see that. This doesn't exonerate the act of cheating, but I can see where a person facing that would feel isolated enough that they would CERTAINLY be justified in divorcing this feckless spouse."

No...it's 'justifications', selfish, and 'ya (sic) sometimes betrayed saint.'

Because this forum doesn't like to grant the point that while the Wayward jumped off the cliff...the Betrayed sometimes already forced them right to the edge.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Rushwater said:


> No, it means that regardless of the "reasons" for cheating, the potential WS should have tried to repair said marriage or END IT rather than commit said infidelity.
> 
> 
> 
> I do not think that anyone here is saying that a BS is not in some way responsible for a dysfunctional marriage. I AM SAYING that that is not justification for the cheating to occur!!!! But, I find it interesting that you are identifying more with the cheater, than with the cheated. Important note: they BOTH blew their marriage. Um, since when has cheating ever helped to improve a marriage?


Very simple. There is a clarity in a train wreck. No hiding it. There is this huge pile of twisted metal. We could ignore Leroy playing with his iPhone in the engine. We could ignore Cindy holding onto the brake line in the curves. Can't ignore THAT anymore.

So now it's time to rebuild. And IF the marriage was caused by BOTH partners adding their own share of misery and BOTH partners are interested in fixing it, yeah...they can go from the miserable crappy place they were to something healthier.

Not often, but it can happen.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Cheating isn't a solution, but blind monogamy isn't much better. We expect - urealistically - our spouse to provide for all our emotional and sexual needs. Often, they do not. On the other hand, we can and often go elsewhere for any other need - from a cooked meal at a restaurant or friend's house occasionally, to bringing in a yard service or house cleaner. Sometimes it's a need, and sometimes for variety or recreation. We have networks of services and friends - why can't that extend to lovers?


----------



## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

JCD said:


> Read my last post to understand the simile better.
> 
> Yeah...I'm sure it tortures some of them I've read it on the board.
> 
> ...


You sound like a victim. Of what, I am not sure.

You also sound angry. Why, I am not sure.

I am sorry that you feel that way.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Jmom said:


> I posted above earlier. I had an ea, recently, and it was the biggest mistake i have ever made. I posted a longer version of what happened on another thread. I certainly take total responsibility for screwing up horribly, but i thought i could offer a little insight, if anyone wants it. Obviously every cheater is different. For me, i had a husband who avoided intimacy, emotional and physical, for at least 7 or 8 years of our marriage, by playing thousands of hours of video games that he concealed, saying he was working on his computer in his office. I talked to him many times about how bad things were, but we couldn't reconnect emotionally.
> I reached a low point of loneliness and desperation, and when i got a little attention and interest from other people, got sucked in, knowing how wrong it was, but without the willpower to stop it. It felt too good to be noticed, even in such a dysfunctional way. Now, 6 weeks after confessing to husband, i am dealing with the fallout, much worse than i ever imagined. I shut down all contact with om the day i confessed, closed the email account, started therapy, and started a sex addicts 12 step group, both to help me and to demonstrate my willingness to make amends. It's a nightmare. I'm sure i'll get some angry feedback, but i wanted to post what was going on in my head at the tome, in case it's informative for anyone else.


What you did was wrong and you know it. But I understand why you would seek the attention of someone else when your own spouse basically threw you out with the trash. After awhile, he decides he wants to sift through the garbage because he decided he valued you after all, and he's shocked, angry and "hurt beyond all measure" because you were getting your emotional needs met somewhere else. 

In the situation that you described - for which this and variations of this theme are the most common reason for infidelity in the first place - is very sad. I also think it's a crime that your husband will be given all the sympathy because you emotionally cheated on him while you get the scorn. In these types of situations, a more measured approach is needed for dissecting the problems, assigning the root cause and fixing the issues.


----------



## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Of reasons to cheat, I think the only constant you'll find is 'selfishness'. Even if a cheater feels like they're 'helping' their lover and being unselfish (a lot of WH claim a White Knight thing, 'She needed me' etc.) they're still making themselves feel better- and putting themselves before the 'pair' that should be considered in a true marriage/partnership. 

After selfishness you have a wide menu of reasons including biology and lust, status, peer group expectation, experimentation, boredom, revenge, entitlement, escapism, fantasy fulfillment, mirroring other's behavior, and psychological damage. 

Some of those can be rolled into each other of course, that's just a partial list I made up.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

the guy said:


> Maybe the wayward is to happy and has a perfect marriage but feels that they don't diserve good things in their life or a good spouse and sabotage it by cheating?
> 
> ...
> 
> Some waywards are just broken and need help, professional help and choice to use booze, pills, weed and even AP's to bury the pain of their youth.


I think a lot of times it is a combination of something like JCD's scenario and this - that the wayward is broken or damaged in some way and needs professional help to find healthy ways of dealing with problems and coping. Although I think in that case, self-sabotage plays a part, too. Ironically, I loved my partner far too much to leave her even when things were at their most miserable (despite everything I did to hurt her) - so she had to leave me. It was only then that we were able to really look at both sides of the relationship and where things had been ignored and left to fester for far too long. She finally realized that she had been contributing to the poisoning of our relationship, too, and we have since R'ed and are both now working to repair problems instead of denying or acting out.

I don't think it helps anyone to just assume that the wayward is evil, cheats "just because they can", is just selfish, has zero morals or character, or whatever. I don't think it's usually the truth of the matter, or the truth of the wayward. I very much agreed with this thing that hardtohandle said: "in the end we all know something fell apart somewhere.. They just lacked the tools to express they needed help.." All of us cheat for different "reasons", but I think very few people cheat as some form of thrill-seeking or what-the-hell-why-not. And I don't think a lot of us plot to destroy our partners or anyone's life.

There's also a difference between an explanation and a justification. The question "why" demands an explanation. But when a wayward tries to explain what was going on inside of them when they cheated, it can (and sometimes tends to be) misinterpreted as justification. It might make us leery to answer this question when it crops up.


----------



## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Cheating isn't a solution, but blind monogamy isn't much better. We expect - urealistically - our spouse to provide for all our emotional and sexual needs. Often, they do not. On the other hand, we can and often go elsewhere for any other need - from a cooked meal at a restaurant or friend's house occasionally, to bringing in a yard service or house cleaner. *Sometimes it's a need, and sometimes for variety or recreation. We have networks of services and friends - why can't that extend to lovers?*





Chris989 said:


> Wow.
> 
> Just. Wow.


I think many people are going to jump on Married's statement as justification for cheating, but I don't think it needs to be interpreted that way. His questions makes sense in theory, in a world without jealousy and serial monogamy. I personally think its okay to decide have 'variety' and other 'lovers' *with express consent and mutual agreement between spouses* but they're driving nails in the coffin. 

It's easy to see that 'open' sexual relationships are playing with very hot fire, for many reasons. Almost without fail someone ends up doing something secretly. Of all the open marriages I've personally known about, the longest disintegrated about two years after becoming 'open'. Only one 'open' marriage I know of has survived and it is because the W decided she wanted monogamy and the husband complied. 

The problem for most of us here is that our spouses decided an open marriage was a good idea _as long as we didn't know it was open.
_


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

MrMathias said:


> I think many people are going to jump on Married's statement as justification for cheating, but I don't think it needs to be interpreted that way. His questions makes sense in theory, in a world without jealousy and serial monogamy. I personally think its okay to decide have 'variety' and other 'lovers' *with express consent and mutual agreement between spouses* but they're driving nails in the coffin.
> 
> It's easy to see that 'open' sexual relationships are playing with very hot fire, for many reasons. Almost without fail someone ends up doing something secretly. Of all the open marriages I've personally known about, the longest disintegrated about two years after becoming 'open'. Only one 'open' marriage I know of has survived and it is because the W decided she wanted monogamy and the husband complied.
> 
> ...


That's the point. Open, ethical, consensual relationships. If people were monogamous, monogamy wouldn't be so hard. Monogamy is hard because it's contrary to human nature. You create the conditions for marriage to fail because the expectations aren't realistic. If the expectation _instead _was that relationships were open, people wouldn't be cheating in such high numbers. Some would choose instead to be monogamous, but I doubt that would have the stigma of cheating (which no-one in with any ethics or compassion thinks is a good idea).

It would take a major paradigm shift for open relationships to be the default, and monogamy just another choice. However, I do think western society is moving very slowly in that direction, to a more tribal or hunter-gatherer model of sexual relationships. That is what we evolved to be in, and the problems of monogamy in a more choice-filled world may be pushing us back to our root nature.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

JCD said:


> And some of us had conversations. LONG conversations. STRIDENT conversations. Tears were shed by both sides...and nothing changed. One month one person tried to work on the marriage...and the other had a grudge. And the next month they switched, because the recalcitrant spouse finally realized they were being an ass...but at this point the other was resentful for having their efforts thrown in their face and THEY were stubborn.
> 
> Lather...rinse...repeat.
> 
> ...


Ah well sorry to p!ss on your parade but here's the simple straightforward answer to the potential wayward spouse that has all those 'justifications' you listed

You're so unhappy so unhappy you'd destroy everyone's life by cheating ?...then leave, end, p!ss off

That's how easy it is

But no, I'll stay eat large portions of cake and anhilate everybody's life

Great


----------



## Jmom (Nov 8, 2013)

Broken? Definitely. Damaged? No question. Was an ea a lousy way of coping with a mediocre marriage? Absolutely. But people are complicated, as are marriages of 20 years; it doesn't seem so odd to me that a person can sometimes love, sometimes hate their spouse, and can have mixed feelings about whether to stay in or leave a marriage that has it's ups and downs. I never wanted to leave the marriage, but I was always alone, for years, because of all of his preoccupations. The final bad deed was mine, definitely, but both of us contributed to making the marriage so bad tht we both checked out.


----------



## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Cheating isn't a solution, but blind monogamy isn't much better. We expect - urealistically - our spouse to provide for all our emotional and sexual needs. Often, they do not. On the other hand, we can and often go elsewhere for any other need - from a cooked meal at a restaurant or friend's house occasionally, to bringing in a yard service or house cleaner. Sometimes it's a need, and sometimes for variety or recreation. We have networks of services and friends - why can't that extend to lovers?


Then why get marred in the first place?


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Rushwater said:


> No, it means that regardless of the "reasons" for cheating, the potential WS should have tried to repair said marriage or END IT rather than commit said infidelity.


Yes, of course they should have. I don't think anyone is arguing with this, are they? This would be the "ideal" scenario. But it is easier said than done. And once _should have but didn't_ comes to pass, this becomes a little moot. 



Rushwater said:


> I do not think that anyone here is saying that a BS is not in some way responsible for a dysfunctional marriage. I AM SAYING that that is not justification for the cheating to occur!!!! But, I find it interesting that you are identifying more with the cheater, than with the cheated. Important note: they BOTH blew their marriage. Um, since when has cheating ever helped to improve a marriage?


I've seen here that there is often the notion that since the wayward cheated, none of the bad things the BS did matters because the wayward has done the ultimate bad. Which, fine, but if anyone wants to R, that makes it almost impossible, because sh!t on both sides needs to be pulled out and looked at, and addressed as need be. As a team. I don't see where anyone is saying cheating is justified, or that the cheating itself improved the marriage. That's something else I don't think I've seen on TAM (though people have said things improved because cheating forced both people into emergency/crisis mode, which then led to them doing what needed to be done to R). I think you are confusing attempted explanations or scenario explorations for justifications. Unless I've somehow missed reading something...

I don't think he's identifying more with either one, I think his viewpoint changes depending on the situation/scenario.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Because they choose to. It's a choice.


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Separate the reasons for a troubled marriage from the act of infidelity.
Both parties contribute 50/50 to a troubled marriage.
Infidelity is 100% on the WS.
Lots of couples live with a troubled marriage and don't cheat.


----------



## Self Help (Oct 22, 2013)

I have never cheated on my SO but I have been cheated on a few times. From my experiences, the cheaters that were in my life were very self entitled with an "I am better than you" type of attitude. Most had a very outgoing personalities and thrived on attention of the opposite sex. They all seemed to believe that their happiness and satisfaction was more important than mine. They were all very good at justifying and blame shifting. I always left feeling that they were right and the reason why they cheated was my fault. And what I learned was that they were right to a degree. I was an enabler. I let them cheat by not establishing and following through with solid boundary's. I am a quick learner and the SO's that cheated on me in my past are off destroying other peoples lives, not mine.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Oh dear. Let's engage in no enlightenment whatsoever.


Chris made a valid point in fact a cheater confided in me that he cheated because he could.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Jmom said:


> I posted above earlier. I had an ea, recently, and it was the biggest mistake i have ever made. I posted a longer version of what happened on another thread. I certainly take total responsibility for screwing up horribly, but i thought i could offer a little insight, if anyone wants it. Obviously every cheater is different. For me, i had a husband who avoided intimacy, emotional and physical, for at least 7 or 8 years of our marriage, by playing thousands of hours of video games that he concealed, saying he was working on his computer in his office. I talked to him many times about how bad things were, but we couldn't reconnect emotionally.
> I reached a low point of loneliness and desperation, and when i got a little attention and interest from other people, got sucked in, knowing how wrong it was, but without the willpower to stop it. It felt too good to be noticed, even in such a dysfunctional way. Now, 6 weeks after confessing to husband, i am dealing with the fallout, much worse than i ever imagined. I shut down all contact with om the day i confessed, closed the email account, started therapy, and started a sex addicts 12 step group, both to help me and to demonstrate my willingness to make amends. It's a nightmare. I'm sure i'll get some angry feedback, but i wanted to post what was going on in my head at the tome, in case it's informative for anyone else.


Ok. I will challenge your husband. Why the hell would you cheat on your wife with computer games? If, indeed, that eas what you were doing...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Horses for courses. Always done for much the same reason with variations on a theme.

The question is asked because we never get the damn truth and are forced to search for answers - the search is endless because the nature of the fallout forces the betrayed to relive and continue searching - ultimate truth is out there, somewhere. You will always be a victim even when you don't want to be.

The betrayers often don't know exactly why or are so used to bullshi**ing us that the goalposts keep moving or, in my case, just about removed completely. So I am left to seek "answers" on TAM (which is partly code for a safe haven to meander in my pain, air my grievances and get my arse kicked)


----------



## Self Help (Oct 22, 2013)

I forgot one thing. It seems like they are just wired differently.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> Do you not think a BS thinks about what happened? About why?
> 
> Do you really think all us betrayed spouses simply dismiss it all with a "it was her/his choice and nothing to do with me?"
> 
> ...


But you said earlier in this thread that people cheat "because they can". There was nothing said about anything else, so one would get the impression that that was precisely what you thought. I read over and over again BSs saying that waywards cheat because they are stupid, evil, selfish, bored, or just wanted to, etc, and there is never any mention of any other factors, so I would never imagine that any of them were considering anything contrary to what they were saying. :scratchhead: So how would one know that any BS saying such things was thinking or feeling something else? Especially when it is stated so emphatically and repetitively.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Chris made a valid point in fact a cheater confided in me that he cheated because he could.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But how often is that really the case? I certainly don't think it's the case for most, and I know it's not the case for all of us. So when people say that's why all of us cheated, it's just maddening.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> Separate the reasons for a troubled marriage from the act of infidelity.
> Both parties contribute 50/50 to a troubled marriage.
> Infidelity is 100% on the WS.
> Lots of couples live with a troubled marriage and don't cheat.


I think this is more than thoroughly acknowledged and stated on TAM by both WSs and BSs.


----------



## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

the guy said:


> Maybe the wayward is to happy and has a perfect marriage but feels that they don't diserve good things in their life or a good spouse and sabotage it by cheating?
> 
> Some betrayed spouses are saints over and over again only to face the emotional torture of a braoken wayward, and no matter how hard they try to fix their broken spouse the damage of the waywards past is behond the betrayeds capacity.
> 
> ...


Hmmm....a saint? Yeah that's me, I like that. The victim with the halo. 

I'm still trying to work out my WS - she's definitely broken. A high earning high functioning broken WS. If only I could get inside that head of hers. Does, she know what it is in herself that makes her drink and, besides our dysfunction, lead her to cheat.

She talked about being 'forced' to have sex a couple of times by an ex-con boyfriend when she was a teenager. Rape? She never actually said but kind of allowed me to draw that conclusion.

And knowing her father and the sort of likable tyrannical mongrel he was - you get the picture. Well I hope you sort of do because that's the thing - I sort of do. I suspect there are deep men issues at play - issues that are tied up with past infidelities, a pattern. But I'm not to know - just to draw conclusions.

She even spoke of 'demons' months back when the false Recon sex had dried up yet again. An excuse? Who knows. The BS search for answers goes on.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Self Help said:


> I have never cheated on my SO but I have been cheated on a few times. From my experiences, the cheaters that were in my life were very self entitled with an "I am better than you" type of attitude. Most had a very outgoing personalities and thrived on attention of the opposite sex. They all seemed to believe that their happiness and satisfaction was more important than mine. They were all very good at justifying and blame shifting. I always left feeling that they were right and the reason why they cheated was my fault. And what I learned was that they were right to a degree. I was an enabler. I let them cheat by not establishing and following through with solid boundary's. I am a quick learner and the SO's that cheated on me in my past are off destroying other peoples lives, not mine.


That's some cheaters, not all cheaters. I am pretty much the opposite of what you described there (I'm introverted, place others before myself, etc), though I did require a lot of external validation and had poor boundaries. I also don't think I'm better than my partner - I think she's better than me, and I always have. My partner unwittingly enabled me because she was too afraid she would lose me if she held firm to her boundaries. But a wayward doesn't have to become someone who goes off to destroy the lives of other people - he or she can come back from that edge and R with their original partner, becoming a better, more complete person in the process. I am grateful for the opportunity to address the damage I did to my partner, and grateful for every day that we can work on healing our love and our relationship.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Jmom said:


> Broken? Definitely. Damaged? No question. Was an ea a lousy way of coping with a mediocre marriage? Absolutely. But people are complicated, as are marriages of 20 years; it doesn't seem so odd to me that a person can sometimes love, sometimes hate their spouse, and can have mixed feelings about whether to stay in or leave a marriage that has it's ups and downs. I never wanted to leave the marriage, but I was always alone, for years, because of all of his preoccupations. The final bad deed was mine, definitely, but both of us contributed to making the marriage so bad tht we both checked out.


But I don't get this (probably the wrong thread) but I'll be brief
how do you go for 20 years becoming *alone* in a marriage and not end it!?!? How?

If I felt that I'd finish it and leave and that would be it. It would hurt of course but at least there would be some respect at the end of it for you both - the moment you set foot outside of that you end all respect, open up a chasm of bitterness hatred and anger that will be forever present

It's so fking obvious (excuse my language but this really gets me this bit.

You are so unhappy and alone and all communication has gone - effectively the marriage is dead 

You say you were alone for YEARS

SO LEAVE don't CHEAT


----------



## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Folks, when you bring a third party into the house you are asking for trouble. It's one thing to have a long fu**ed up relationship but when you bring in the third party there is hell to pay.

A third party is guaranteed to make someone really feel second rate.

When that special place is shared with a third party watch out!


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> But you said earlier in this thread that people cheat "because they can". There was nothing said about anything else, so one would get the impression that that was precisely what you thought. I read over and over again BSs saying that waywards cheat because they are stupid, evil, selfish, bored, or just wanted to, etc, and there is never any mention of any other factors, so I would never imagine that any of them were considering anything contrary to what they were saying. :scratchhead: So how would one know that any BS saying such things was thinking or feeling something else? Especially when it is stated so emphatically and repetitively.


This is why these types of convos are difficult to have on this particular forum, but they are beneficial IMHO. Not all cases of infidelity are the same. Some cases occur because a BS married a psycho, a cold hearted person, a self centered egoist or a power hungry taker. It definitely happens and it's due to a broken WS. Other cases of infidelity are reactions to bad marital situations. I believe these cheating situations are the more common ones we see in the real world. These are not as clear cut because IMHO it can result in a chicken or egg scenario.

I'm going to explore this in a different way. The clarion call we hear on CWI whenever a cheating situation is discussed where the BS was neglectful of his/her spouse is that "if the marriage was so bad for the WS, why didn't he/she simply leave?" Then this is followed up by using reason to explain why the decision of the neglected WS to cheat was illogical and damaging. In these cases of neglect, where was the logic exercised by the BS? When a spouse reaches out to another and tells him/her that things need to change, you need to pay more attention to me, we need more intimacy in our marriage, etc...and those statements are met by either token agreement with no changes made or outright denial of there being problems, what is the neglected spouse supposed to conclude from this logically? Is the logical conclusion of a neglected spouse to reason that "I am no longer loved, respected or valued?" That would be soul crushing if I ever experienced it. 

I know many on here talk about being like a moral rock, but given enough time wind and water will erode the rock down and weaken it. I think this is how some people become cheaters. You feel cast aside by your spouse, but you still have feelings for your spouse. You also don't want to see your home broken if you have kids but you feel this giant void. Talking hasn't done any good and you don't want to divorce.


----------



## Jmom (Nov 8, 2013)

[Ok. I will challenge your husband. Why the hell would you cheat on your wife with computer games? If, indeed, that eas what you were doing...]


He was ignoring me in favor of video games because he had some major career setbacks, and used games as a stress relief, I guess, then became obsessed with them, staying up half the night and coming to bed at 2 or 3 in the morning.
the ea is, indeed, what i was doing, if you are implying anything else. I never met the OM or had any intention to. It was a sort of psychological crisis.
And, for the record, my husband is blaming himself almost as much as he blames me, that he realizes how isolating he was. I've actually been trying to get him to blame me more, because obviously the infidelity was mine. he is actually treating the video game thing almost as an addiction, avoiding it like the plague and we are spending those hours every day talking and talking things out. First time we've had a marriage in about 8 years.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Horizon said:


> I'm still trying to work out my WS - she's definitely broken. A high earning high functioning broken WS. If only I could get inside that head of hers. Does, she know what it is in herself that makes her drink and, besides our dysfunction, lead her to cheat.


Messed up coping mechanisms? If she doesn't have the proper tools to deal with her past traumas, she'll resort to maladaptive stuff. What's frustrating is that even in IC, a lot of therapists don't have any suggestions for healthy coping mechanisms or how to develop them (if one has bad coping mechanisms). What they don't understand is that you need a replacement before you can abandon the old one! LOL. They exist for a reason, after all.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Jmom, glad to hear that your H is actually present with you now and is trying to work things out with you.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Jmom said:


> Ok. I will challenge your husband. Why the hell would you cheat on your wife with computer games? If, indeed, that eas what you were doing...
> 
> 
> He was ignoring me in favor of video games because he had some major career setbacks, and used games as a stress relief, I guess, then became obsessed with them, staying up half the night and coming to bed at 2 or 3 in the morning.
> ...


I think it's healthy that despite your husbands pain, he acknowledges that his decisions caused major problems in the marriage. Yes, you clearly made a stupid decision. Should have never happened. But the two of you can salvage something good out of evil. You both need to own your mistakes and poor choices. Keep taking through things and learn how to communicate - and listen - more effectively and I think the two of you can build a marriage even stronger and more special than you had before the spiral the two of you went down.


----------



## NothingWantsToChange (Nov 8, 2013)

There is no easy answer to this. Are there sociopaths who act without guilt? Sure but cheating is far too prevalent for all of them to fall under this. 

Relationships are hard and people are not perfect. Impulse control is a tricky thing...think about how many times you ate more then you wanted or chose to watch tv instead of worked out. We know what the right decisions are but don't always make them. On this board I think cheaters are vilified the same as people who rape, murder, etc...while cheating obliviously sucks the cheaters are simply flawed just like everyone else.


----------



## Jmom (Nov 8, 2013)

Headspin said:


> But I don't get this (probably the wrong thread) but I'll be brief
> how do you go for 20 years becoming *alone* in a marriage and not end it!?!? How?
> 
> If I felt that I'd finish it and leave and that would be it. It would hurt of course but at least there would be some respect at the end of it for you both - the moment you set foot outside of that you end all respect, open up a chasm of bitterness hatred and anger that will be forever present
> ...


As I said, complicated. It wasn't always bad, just often. So hard to decide to leave when you factor in kids, finances, hope that things would magically improve if I just brought it up one more time, etc. He was my first serious relationship; we've known each other our whole adult lives. I thought the ea would be a diversion, not the huge problem it became. And yes, there is a huge chasm of bitterness, to be sure. We'll be working on that for some time, I think.


----------



## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Pretty simple really. Cheaters cheat because they want too. Also, they no longer respect their betrayed spouse and no longer value their marriage. Also, most cheaters have poor boundaries and are conflict avoidant, have poor coping skills and many are passive aggressive. 

But in short, they cheat cause the want too. They cheat cause they can. Really no matter how good or bad you are as a spouse. They will cheat if they want too. 

They don't change, not really. They just might get better at hiding it. 

Like the jay-z line goes- 'you are what you are player. You can try to change but that's just the top layer'

Just my opinion tho, I'm not really well versed in the thought process of a cheater, cause you know, I don't cheat lol.


----------



## Self Help (Oct 22, 2013)

Soulpotato, Im glad you were able to stop the cycle. I am happy that you were able to see the damage. Realistically how often do you see that on TAM? I wish that everyone could learn from you. I know of several that could definitely use your insight.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> *1. Exit affair. They have already checked out of the marriage/ relationship. *


*I would greatly surmise that the "exit affair" is exactly what my cheating, skanky XW's modus operandi was with me.

A sudden loss of affection, coupled with her clandestine, out-of-town, two-pronged affairs with men from her distant past, all while she was still domiciled with me.*


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I'm going to explore this in a different way. The clarion call we hear on CWI whenever a cheating situation is discussed where the BS was neglectful of his/her spouse is that *"if the marriage was so bad for the WS, why didn't he/she simply leave?" Then this is followed up by using reason to explain why the decision of the neglected WS to cheat was illogical and damaging. In these cases of neglect, where was the logic exercised by the BS? When a spouse reaches out to another and tells him/her that things need to change, you need to pay more attention to me, we need more intimacy in our marriage, etc...and those statements are met by either token agreement with no changes made or outright denial of there being problems, what is the neglected spouse supposed to conclude from this logically?*


YES, this!!! They approach it like a logic problem and it is not so easy or so logical to just walk away from the person you love. So you talk, plead, and beg, and are told that there are no problems, or that you are the problem and that your needs are excessive and you need to just get over them. Or told to go bother your friends with them, but then you're told you're spending too much time with the friends - only to get the cold shoulder when you try to focus more on your partner. But you're convinced if you just explain it the right way, or say it one more time, that it will break through. Leaving was the furthest thing from my mind. Neither partner/spouse may be thinking rationally or seeing what's going on in the relationship or see that things are going into the danger zone. 



Plan 9 from OS said:


> Is the logical conclusion of a neglected spouse to reason that "I am no longer loved, respected or valued?" That would be soul crushing if I ever experienced it.


Yes. It was. Yet you love the person and want things to change. You hope you're wrong about their feelings. You can't survive with things the way they are, yet leaving is unthinkable. It's so hard to make a choice when all choices are bad. You keep doing what's not working, and can only hope. I wasn't willing to walk away or give up on the person I love/d. I didn't plan on cheating, and if someone had told me that I would, I don't think I would have believed them.



Plan 9 from OS said:


> I know many on here talk about being like a moral rock, but given enough time wind and water will erode the rock down and weaken it. I think this is how some people become cheaters. You feel cast aside by your spouse, but you still have feelings for your spouse. You also don't want to see your home broken if you have kids but you feel this giant void. Talking hasn't done any good and you don't want to divorce.


P9, this is spot on. Thank you for putting this into words.


----------



## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

Wow... this thread has been so deep and enlightening. I thank everyone for sharing.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Self Help said:


> Soulpotato, Im glad you were able to stop the cycle. I am happy that you were able to see the damage. Realistically how often do you see that on TAM? I wish that everyone could learn from you. I know of several that could definitely use your insight.


Thank you, SH.  My partner met me halfway. She has really stepped up, too. (Neither one of us thought we'd be able to pull this off with how bad things were, but we surprised ourselves.) A good number of the WSs I see on here posting are trying to understand what went wrong within them and how to do what they can to help their BSs. They don't always say or do the right things, or have it all together at first or completely "get it", but I think if they weren't chased away, they could learn a lot and do the same. Granted, there are those who come here who aren't remorseful or are defensive, angry, and trying to justify, but they're more the minority. I think reception makes a difference with whether some of the WSs can be brought around.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I'm going to explore this in a different way...... When a spouse reaches out to another and tells him/her that things need to change, you need to pay more attention to me, we need more intimacy in our marriage, etc...and those statements are met by either token agreement with no changes made or outright denial of there being problems, what is the neglected spouse supposed to conclude from this logically? Is the logical conclusion of a neglected spouse to reason that "I am no longer loved, respected or valued?" That would be soul crushing if I ever experienced it.


Yes soul crushing, realising you cannot live with this person any longer - so guess what ?
LEAVE ................well no actually I won't I'll cheat on them instead



Plan 9 from OS said:


> I know many on here talk about being like a moral rock, but given enough time wind and water will erode the rock down and weaken it. I think this is how some people become cheaters. You feel cast aside by your spouse, but you still have feelings for your spouse. You also don't want to see your home broken if you have kids but you feel this giant void. Talking hasn't done any good and you don't want to divorce.


About a hundred words there P9 I'll use just the two for a more succinct but accurate interpretation of what you said there - Cake Eating


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Yes soul crushing, realising you cannot live with this person any longer - so guess what ?
> LEAVE ................well no actually I won't I'll cheat on them instead
> 
> 
> ...


I've started to come around to the idea that the reasons why a WS decides to cheat instead of leave a marriage and why a BS chooses to reconcile with a WS are two sides of the same coin in many cases. Both motivated by the same reasons: fear of being alone, love for their spouse, to not break the home for the kids and fear of the unknown. All assuming that the WS cheats as a reaction to neglect or a bad marriage in general.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I've started to come around to the idea that the reasons why a WS decides to cheat instead of leave a marriage and why a BS chooses to reconcile with a WS are two sides of the same coin in many cases. Both motivated by the same reasons: fear of being alone, love for their spouse, to not break the home for the kids and fear of the unknown. All assuming that the WS cheats as a reaction to neglect or a bad marriage in general.


But that is an assumption 

What about the marriages that are not that bad where's there's little neglect - thousands of waywards 
that just do it 
because they can 
because they are selfish because 
they cake eat and 
want plan b as back up


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Headspin said:


> But that is an assumption
> 
> What about the marriages that are not that bad where's there's little neglect - thousands of waywards
> that just do it
> ...


Like I wrote earlier in the thread, there are broken people who cheat and they just do without any good reason. They too are trying to fill voids, but those voids are in themselves. Others are trying to fill voids due to a lacking need in the marriage.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Headspin said:


> But that is an assumption
> 
> What about the marriages that are not that bad where's there's little neglect - thousands of waywards
> that just do it
> ...


Or: "I never wanted you to find out!"


----------



## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> Messed up coping mechanisms? If she doesn't have the proper tools to deal with her past traumas, she'll resort to maladaptive stuff. What's frustrating is that even in IC, a lot of therapists don't have any suggestions for healthy coping mechanisms or how to develop them (if one has bad coping mechanisms). What they don't understand is that you need a replacement before you can abandon the old one! LOL. They exist for a reason, after all.


True - she still drinks and as you would have already guessed that other bane of the BS is in full bloom. What happens when the WS gets the signal from another player, or runs into the old AP? When will it happen again? An affair is so insidious - it ads an awful layer over previous issues. If the previous issues aren't dealt with and now you have the fallout of an affair well isn't that just the mother load of the same damn thing that helped drive the affair in the first place?? Us BS's have to carry a lot of sh!t around - sh!t like these thoughts.


----------



## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Jmom said:


> [Ok. I will challenge your husband. Why the hell would you cheat on your wife with computer games? If, indeed, that eas what you were doing...]
> 
> 
> He was ignoring me in favor of video games because he had some major career setbacks, and used games as a stress relief, I guess, then became obsessed with them, staying up half the night and coming to bed at 2 or 3 in the morning.
> ...


So he plays with video game characters and you play with real life characters. Sounds fair.

You keep on writing over and over again that cheating was your fault. Still you bring your BH's video game addiction as a pseudo-justification for your cheating. You have no obligation to be honest with us. But at least be honest with yourself.


----------



## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Like I wrote earlier in the thread, there are broken people who cheat and they just do without any good reason. They too are trying to fill voids, but those voids are in themselves. Others are trying to fill voids due to a lacking need in the marriage.


So they are trying to fix the marriage by breaking the marriage? Interesting. Why didn't we think of it before!


----------



## Jmom (Nov 8, 2013)

life101 said:


> So he plays with video game characters and you play with real life characters. Sounds fair.
> 
> You keep on writing over and over again that cheating was your fault. Still you bring your BH's video game addiction as a pseudo-justification for your cheating. You have no obligation to be honest with us. But at least be honest with yourself.


I have been honest with myself, to my husband, and on this board. No pseudo justification at all, it was my fault. But again, I think it's simplistic to see the cheating as something that happened in a vacuum. I have tried to be clear about everything -- he pain, frustration, and loneliness I felt, and what I saw as the things that led up to what I did. Since the originator of the thread seemed to be asking what goes on in a cheater's mind, I thought I would try to give as complete and honest an answer as I could. But you have to be able to handle a little emotional complexity. And the video game characters aren't really the point-- it was the many, many hours focussing on things other than marriage and kids. it would have been the same had he been consumed by drugs, by running marathons, or taking flying lessons. It's just that his priorities were elsewhere.


----------



## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> there are broken people who cheat and they just do without any good reason.


Do you mean to say that there is a "GOOD REASON" to cheat? There is no good reason to cheat on a marriage. There is no justification to cheat on a marriage. You all can paint your justifications as rosy as possible, but it's still just an attempt to make yourselves feel better. Can some cheaters make amends with their BS and become better people? Yes. Does it happen often? No. Can some BS' be responsible for dysfunction in a marriage? Yes. Can that be grounds for the WS to cheat? No. Simple. Succinct. Not sure where the grey area is here. And, my smell test is, would you feel the same if you were the BS and your WS told you they did it because of your video game addiction or some other RESPONSIBILITY DISPLACEMENT excuse? I'm not out to "villainize" a cheater. But I will call a spade a spade. If it was not WRONG, it would not be A SECRET, and YOU KNOW IT!!!!


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Liars lie, cheaters cheat. That is their nature. We don't expect evil to play fair, do we? Of course not. The nature of evil is inherently...evil. Like the guy who was eaten by the tiger he kept in his NYC apartment, the tiger was in the end, being a tiger. 

"Book 'em Lou. One count of being a bear. And one count of being an accessory to being a bear." -- Chief Wiggum arrests a bear and Barney, "Much Apu About Nothing"


----------



## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Jmom said:


> I have been honest with myself, to my husband, and on this board. No pseudo justification at all, it was my fault. *But again, I think it's simplistic to see the cheating as something that happened in a vacuum.* I have tried to be clear about everything -- he pain, frustration, and loneliness I felt, and what I saw as the things that led up to what I did. Since the originator of the thread seemed to be asking what goes on in a cheater's mind, I thought I would try to give as complete and honest an answer as I could. But you have to be able to handle a little emotional complexity. And the video game characters aren't really the point-- it was the many, many hours focussing on things other than marriage and kids. it would have been the same had he been consumed by drugs, by running marathons, or taking flying lessons. It's just that his priorities were elsewhere.


You could have divorced him and then indulge in the affair. You didn't. Why? You must be getting something out of the marriage.

What would have you done if instead of video games he was addicted to sex and having affairs? I ask this question because you equate video game to drugs. You are asking us not to be simplistic, but don't you think treating all addictions as the same is a bit simplistic itself?

I said this on your thread, and I am saying this here again. You still hold your husband responsible for your cheating. 

People cheat because they can. Because they think that they are the prince and princess who deserve the world. It is really that simple. They don't divorce and start a new relationship because they would like to eat the cake and have it too. They give many justifications like 'I still loved my BS'. 'I wanted to stay for the kids', 'It was just sex', 'I was missing something from the marriage', 'There was a void inside me, the AP filled it' and so on. At the end of the day it all come back to one simple not at all complex reason- they felt entitled to stab the BS in the back. That's all. It is not complex at all. Theory of relativity is complex. Cheating is not.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> What you did was wrong and you know it. But I understand why you would seek the attention of someone else when your own spouse basically threw you out with the trash. After awhile, he decides he wants to sift through the garbage because he decided he valued you after all, and he's shocked, angry and "hurt beyond all measure" because you were getting your emotional needs met somewhere else.
> 
> In the situation that you described - for which this and variations of this theme are the most common reason for infidelity in the first place - is very sad. I also think it's a crime that your husband will be given all the sympathy because you emotionally cheated on him while you get the scorn. In these types of situations, a more measured approach is needed for dissecting the problems, assigning the root cause and fixing the issues.


Generous and well said. She doesn't have clean hands...but she isn't the only person with dirty hands in this relationship.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Cheating isn't a solution, but blind monogamy isn't much better. We expect - urealistically - our spouse to provide for all our emotional and sexual needs. Often, they do not. On the other hand, we can and often go elsewhere for any other need - from a cooked meal at a restaurant or friend's house occasionally, to bringing in a yard service or house cleaner. Sometimes it's a need, and sometimes for variety or recreation. We have networks of services and friends - why can't that extend to lovers?


You had me all the way up to lovers.

Sorry, that doesn't pass muster with me. I can get having a pal who does the sports thing with you. I get the girlfriend who fills in your shoe fetish. The guys who do your fantasy football thing. Sure. I get all that.

The emotional landmine that is infidelity re cuckolding and the STRONG emotional bonding outside of marriage....that is a bridge too far.

Giving away that level of emotional and sexual currency to another is NEVER correct.

I say that at some point, after years of neglect by another spouse, I can SYMPATHIZE with the plight of someone in that situation who makes the misstep to cheat and I don't assign ALL the blame simply on the 'cheater'. The BS generally has a bit of dirt on his/her hands as well.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> There's also a difference between an explanation and a justification. The question "why" demands an explanation. But when a wayward tries to explain what was going on inside of them when they cheated, it can (and sometimes tends to be) misinterpreted as justification. *It might make us leery to answer this question when it crops up*.



Well said.

And when the question comes up, I'm your huckleberry...


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

life101 said:


> So he plays with video game characters and you play with real life characters. Sounds fair.
> 
> You keep on writing over and over again that cheating was your fault. Still you bring your BH's video game addiction as a pseudo-justification for your cheating. You have no obligation to be honest with us. But at least be honest with yourself.


"Cheating on you? Oh, no way, honey! I'd never do that to you! Then, why was I on the computer 12 hours a day? Why... umm... I was... errr playing video games! Sure, yeah! That's it! Video games! I was playing video games!"

*Right....*


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Chris made a valid point in fact a cheater confided in me that he cheated because he could.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think this tends to be truer of men than women. But they seldom have 'affairs of the heart' barely straying north of the belt.

There IS a sector of cheaters who think they are 'so damned wonderful' that they could get away with any level of behavior. I knew a guy like that: happily chasing after a married wife because he felt he could. He deserved her. (he was also a thief and a liar)

HOWEVER, there is too much cheating going on to pin it all on self absorbed narcissistic psychopaths unless you water down the word so it means nothing.


----------



## Jmom (Nov 8, 2013)

life101 said:


> You could have divorced him and then indulge in the affair. You didn't. Why? You must be getting something out of the marriage.
> 
> What would have you done if instead of video games he was addicted to sex and having affairs? I ask this question because you equate video game to drugs. You are asking us not to be simplistic, but don't you think treating all addictions as the same is a bit simplistic itself?
> 
> ...


Nope, not equating it to drugs which is why i gave other examples. The point was that he was avoiding emotional intimacy for a long time by busying himself with other things.
and of course I was getting something out of the marriage, as I said in some of the earlier posts.
sorry again if you think I'm blaming him. I think I have amply said that it was my mistake, which I regret, and am taking whatever steps to repair that I can. Hardly prince and princess thinking-- we hadn't had sex in nearly a year and hadn't had a conversation except for chores and exchanging information in at least that long. And it got to me. I know a lot of you think it's an entitlement issue, but in some cases, it's a desperation issue. 
And people ARE complex, not just relativity.


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

One could ask what makes people create fake stories to glean personal information and money out of people online?


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Rushwater said:


> Do you mean to say that there is a "GOOD REASON" to cheat? There is no good reason to cheat on a marriage. There is no justification to cheat on a marriage. You all can paint your justifications as rosy as possible, but it's still just an attempt to make yourselves feel better. Can some cheaters make amends with their BS and become better people? Yes. Does it happen often? No. Can some BS' be responsible for dysfunction in a marriage? Yes. Can that be grounds for the WS to cheat? No. Simple. Succinct. Not sure where the grey area is here. And, my smell test is, would you feel the same if you were the BS and your WS told you they did it because of your video game addiction or some other RESPONSIBILITY DISPLACEMENT excuse? I'm not out to "villainize" a cheater. But I will call a spade a spade. If it was not WRONG, it would not be A SECRET, and YOU KNOW IT!!!!


I feel like we're looping here. Explanation does not equal justification. No one ever said that it's okay for someone to cheat, or that they don't have to own that, be responsible for it, or take 100% of the blame for the cheating. The relationship stuff is another story. I don't see any responsibility displacement occurring. Every former wayward posting on this thread has said in one way or another that there's no excuse for cheating and that it IS wrong and that they take full responsibility for it. Why are we looping? :scratchhead:


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Headspin said:


> But I don't get this (probably the wrong thread) but I'll be brief
> how do you go for 20 years becoming *alone* in a marriage and not end it!?!? How?
> 
> If I felt that I'd finish it and leave and that would be it. It would hurt of course but at least there would be some respect at the end of it for you both - the moment you set foot outside of that you end all respect, open up a chasm of bitterness hatred and anger that will be forever present
> ...



Kids

The victory of hope over history (Maybe he will change if I do X....okay...maybe he will change if I do Y...okay...)

Reputation (Oh my god...her husband finally dumped her...)

Money




All answers to your question


----------



## Jmom (Nov 8, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> "Cheating on you? Oh, no way, honey! I'd never do that to you! Then, why was I on the computer 12 hours a day? Why... umm... I was... errr playing video games! Sure, yeah! That's it! Video games! I was playing video games!"
> 
> *Right....*


No, he really was playing video games. In our newfound feeling of transparency, he had me look at the logs of his game. Thousands of hours, going back to 2004.


----------



## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

diwali123 said:


> One could ask what makes people create fake stories to glean personal information and money out of people online?


If you want to know that you should make a thread about it.


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Daisy10 said:


> If you want to know that you should make a thread about it.


Oh I think you have made quite a few.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Horizon said:


> True - she still drinks and as you would have already guessed that other bane of the BS is in full bloom. What happens when the WS gets the signal from another player, or runs into the old AP? When will it happen again? An affair is so insidious - it ads an awful layer over previous issues. If the previous issues aren't dealt with and now you have the fallout of an affair well isn't that just the mother load of the same damn thing that helped drive the affair in the first place?? Us BS's have to carry a lot of sh!t around - sh!t like these thoughts.


She had her wake-up call. If she does nothing, she will eventually lose you. At this point, she should be in therapy learning healthy ways to cope and how to have a healthy relationship with you. She should be affair-proofing herself, digging deep to find out what went wrong, where the weaknesses lie, and what she can do to repair or reinforce those vulnerabilities. This includes, of course, cutting off contact will all and any APs, possible APs, or risky/toxic people. Yes, that is the mother load, and it's not fair, and it's a terrible thing for a loyal spouse/partner to have to face.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Headspin said:


> But that is an assumption
> 
> *What about the marriages that are not that bad *where's there's little neglect - thousands of waywards
> that just do it
> ...



According to WHO? YOU? Guess what...maybe you don't think the marriage is 'neglectful' but there are two votes in the marriage...and if she cheated, I'm guessing that is a distinct 'Yes' on the 'neglectful' question.

Now, if you married someone with serious esteem issues, someone with overwheening expectations, than perhaps their metric for neglect is a bit too sensitive. If your spouse is too needy to allow you 'dinner with the boys' once in a while, that's not good and they need to readjust.

But what about GameBoy here? EIGHT YEARS! What is your apology for him? Please...defend him! The fact that he was rubbing one out with Lara Croft instead of Suzy down in accounts is a matter of means, not results. The Result was he replaced his relationship with something else which gave him more pleasure than his wife.

I see this all the time on TAM

"Well...I was feeling emotionally distant from her and hadn't had sex for two years" Oh you poor man!

"Well...I hit her a few times" Oh you poor fellow!

"Well...I was clinically depressed and only sitting on the couch and going to work for 4 years..." You victim you!

Lots of sympathy for the infidelity but never an analysis of 'well Dumas...sure she cheated but you better fix this up, because you fvcked up for 8 years!"

Nope...never hear that. OCCASSIONALLY with blatant abuse or alcoholism to the point of passing out, there are weak words of recrimination. TAM does not serve these people as well as they could.


----------



## Jmom (Nov 8, 2013)

JCD said:


> According to WHO? YOU? Guess what...maybe you don't think the marriage is 'neglectful' but there are two votes in the marriage...and if she cheated, I'm guessing that is a distinct 'Yes' on the 'neglectful' question.
> 
> Now, if you married someone with serious esteem issues, someone with overwheening expectations, than perhaps their metric for neglect is a bit too sensitive. If your spouse is too needy to allow you 'dinner with the boys' once in a while, that's not good and they need to readjust.
> 
> ...


okay, I'm sorry if laughing is unseemly on this board, but even I think the Gameboy comment is funny!


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

New here and devastated
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showpost.php?p=5458850


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> New here and devastated
> Talk About Marriage - View Single Post - New here and devastated


I will say this though, I never have a problem with anyone starting a thread for the purpose of discussion. Now if Daisy is sitting back trying to get research for a book or something, no big deal to me. IMHO, this is one of the better threads we've seen in CWI for awhile. Having a mostly civil discussion sure beats watching the mob trying to dismantle someone over something he/she said or did.


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I will say this though, I never have a problem with anyone starting a thread for the purpose of discussion. Now if Daisy is sitting back trying to get research for a book or something, no big deal to me. IMHO, this is one of the better threads we've seen in CWI for awhile. Having a mostly civil discussion sure beats watching the mob trying to dismantle someone over something he/she said or did.


Read the above link. He/she/it is trying to get personal info and possibly money from men on TAM.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> Read the above link. He/she/it is trying to get personal info and possibly money from men on TAM.


I would hope no one would be stupid enough to give out their personal information to someone they barely knew.


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I would hope no one would be stupid enough to give out their personal information to someone they barely knew.


That's ok. Mods are tracing all the ISPs now.


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I would hope no one would be stupid enough to give out their personal information to someone they barely knew.


Con artists don't ask the info upfront, they have ways of getting it.


----------



## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

diwali123 said:


> That's ok. Mods are tracing all the ISPs now.


I expect a public apology.


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Daisy10 said:


> I expect a public apology.


I expect you guys to get real jobs.


----------



## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

diwali123 said:


> I expect you guys to get real jobs.


I have a job. I've done nothing but post on a discussion forum for discussion and definitely not here to argue with someone paranoid. Do you have a job? What makes you so preoccupied with me?

Check with the mods if you wish but I suspect you won't and just enjoy starting stuff.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

I hope discussion on this thread doesn't stop only to be replaced by troll accusations.


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Daisy10 said:


> I have a job. I've done nothing but post on a discussion forum for discussion and definitely not here to argue with someone paranoid. Do you have a job? What makes you so preoccupied with me?
> 
> Check with the mods if you wish but I suspect you won't and just enjoy starting stuff.


I don't know. All of your alter egos paused, as if waiting for input from the rest of your team and then suddenly had come backs and answer all at the same time. 

But continue now that everyone knows what is up.


----------



## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

diwali123 said:


> I don't know.


That's right, you don't. But have no fear, I reported to the mods, (since I know you didn't) and they will verify.


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Daisy10 said:


> That's right, you don't. But have no fear, I reported to the mods, (since I know you didn't) and they will verify.


Ok honey.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> I don't know. All of your alter egos paused, as if waiting for input from the rest of your team and then suddenly had come backs and answer all at the same time.
> 
> But continue now that everyone knows what is up.


Shows what you know! The voices in my head NEVER talk to one another, so the coordination you are inferring is absolutely impossible.

And besides, _*I*_ name my alternate personalities with much cooler names than Daisy and Plan 9.


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

JCD said:


> Shows what you know! The voices in my head NEVER talk to one another, so the coordination you are inferring is absolutely impossible.
> 
> And besides, _*I*_ name my alternate personalities with much cooler names than Daisy and Plan 9.


Well you know...the voices in your head already know your birthday, address, middle name, and employer.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> Well you know...the voices in your head already know your birthday, address, middle name, and employer.


This Daisy person asked a generic question: why do cheaters cheat. 

And we have responded with rather generic philosophical answers. This has raised an interesting debate (which is FAR better than the normal hate filled attacks these threads normally bring by Bitter Betrayed Spouses who think anyone explaining anything is EEEEVILLL!)

Has Daisy solicited further details? Has she asked about locations? Hobbies? Names? 

Funny...I don't see a SINGLE instance of this. Not one.

I've asked generic questions to discuss a principle before. And no one started giving me their name, SS number and favorite sexual position.

So what evidence do you bring to the table to support this scurrilous and reputation damaging accusation?

Zero, Nada, Zilch.

Amuse yourself with these comments, but they are unsupported and off the point. 

WHEN you can show cause for your allegations, speak up.

Otherwise, you are a church lady who knew a woman who knew a woman who cheated on her husband during lunch...and then tells us that since OUR wife had lunch with someone, she is cheating too.

Sure. Lighten up Francis...or give with evidence.


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

JCD said:


> This Daisy person asked a generic question: why do cheaters cheat.
> 
> And we have responded with rather generic philosophical answers. This has raised an interesting debate (which is FAR better than the normal hate filled attacks these threads normally bring by Bitter Betrayed Spouses who think anyone explaining anything is EEEEVILLL!)
> 
> ...


Because she has posted four different posts and had three different sock puppets all with the same writing style as Rosie. And doesn't have an authentic response to this.


----------



## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> Why are we looping? :scratchhead:


Oh, I'm not sure why. I just keep reading people's posts inferring that those who do not cheat are not cheaters only because they have not cheated yet (insinuating that EVERYONE is a potential cheat)... or that cheating is simply "wandering off path", or worse, that monogamy is "unrealistic".... I'm not one of these people that wants a scorched Earth policy put on cheaters, however, I absolutely despise backpedalling and blame shifting, and that is exactly what I am seeing here.

You and I can simply agree to disagree.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Rushwater said:


> Oh, I'm not sure why. I just keep reading people's posts inferring that those who do not cheat are not cheaters only because they have not cheated yet (insinuating that EVERYONE is a potential cheat)... or that cheating is simply "wandering off path", or worse, that monogamy is "unrealistic".... I'm not one of these people that wants a scorched Earth policy put on cheaters, however, I absolutely despise backpedalling and blame shifting, and that is exactly what I am seeing here.
> 
> You and I can simply agree to disagree.


Mmm...no.

First off, I have seen a half dozen posts (mostly by women, strangely enough) who tell us that they have always despised cheaters and cheating...and...well...they fell off the fidelity wagon. They then go on with some passion describing how much self loathing they have for themselves.

So if we assume that they are telling the truth, yeah, some people who never expected to be cheaters, become cheaters. Some people who never expected to be murderers kill people. How many times have you heard about some cheating incident and thought 'him? her? I can't believe it!' It would be comforting to believe there is something wrong with them. Not so comforting to think "but for the grace of God, there go I." 

Tell me, if your spouse cut you off from sex but was otherwise a pretty good spouse, so much so that anyone hearing you were divorcing her would say 'what are you, crazy?', how long before you might be tempted to stray?

When pressure is put on people, they act in crazy, irrational ways. So yes, in the normal, hum drum nothing exciting day, you will not cheat. What happens if you are jobless? What happens if you are constantly fighting? What happens if money issues come along? What happens when that happens and you suddenly have 'The Spark'. People do stupid things for the Spark.

It is the mark of extreme arrogance to say "I would never do that". It makes you complacent.

BUT...maybe you won't. Maybe you are another flavor. You'll sit with your friends for 6 nights a week, a cup never leaves your hand, or maybe you have your fingers wrapped around a game controller for 40 hours a week. Maybe you stay at the job for 80 hours a week minimum and your wife keeps a picture of you next to the bed so she remembers what you look like.

THAT isn't cheating...but it certainly is damaging. Outlining this fact is probably uncomfortable.

And I never said monogamy was unnatural. It's pretty common in the animal world...as is infidelity. Look it up.


----------



## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

JCD said:


> Mmm...no.
> 
> First off, I have seen a half dozen posts (mostly by women, strangely enough) who tell us that they have always despised cheaters and cheating...and...well...they fell off the fidelity wagon. They then go on with some passion describing how much self loathing they have for themselves.
> 
> ...


First of all, in that last post of mine, I was referring to multiple posters, not just yours (ie. monogamy is un-natural). Second, just because you have convinced yourself that those of us who have not cheated are simply cheaters in waiting, in an effort to cope, knock yourself out. Third, my wife and I did go through a period of three years when there was little sex/intimacy. I was NEVER tempted to stray. Quite the opposite. I looked TO MY MARRIAGE for help, not outside of it. I encouraged my wife to see a physician to help her with her LD as well as IC for other issues which were related. We spent a lot of time discussing what I could do to help our marriage and our low level of intimacy. I am very much in love with my wife. It took us a while to get to where we are now, but things are good... and they would not be if I had... how did you put it.... oh yeah, if I had "wandered off the path". I agree that both parties have to work together to sort out a dysfunctional marriage. I was no saint in our marriage. I never cheated, but there was certainly a time when I was so caught up in my hobbies that I neglected her. But, did she cheat on me? NO. Did she raise hell with me in an effort to get my attention and action? Yes.

Look, I don't have a damned thing against you. And you can portray it any way that you want. You can say whatever you want if it makes you feel better as long as it does not violate TAM posting rules. But I will continue to call a spade a spade.


----------



## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Jmom said:


> Nope, not equating it to drugs which is why i gave other examples. The point was that he was avoiding emotional intimacy for a long time by busying himself with other things.
> and of course I was getting something out of the marriage, as I said in some of the earlier posts.
> sorry again if you think I'm blaming him. I think I have amply said that it was my mistake, which I regret, and am taking whatever steps to repair that I can. Hardly prince and princess thinking-- we hadn't had sex in nearly a year and hadn't had a conversation except for chores and exchanging information in at least that long. And it got to me. *I know a lot of you think it's an entitlement issue, but in some cases, it's a desperation issue. *
> And people ARE complex, not just relativity.


If it was that bad, why didn't you get divorced? Just a simple question.


----------



## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

JCD said:


> I think this tends to be truer of men than women. But they seldom have 'affairs of the heart' barely straying north of the belt.
> 
> There IS a sector of cheaters who think they are 'so damned wonderful' that they could get away with any level of behavior. I knew a guy like that: happily chasing after a married wife because he felt he could. He deserved her. (he was also a thief and a liar)
> 
> HOWEVER, there is too much cheating going on to pin it all on self absorbed narcissistic psychopaths unless you water down the word so it means nothing.


Yeah, the POSOM who nabbed my compliant WS was only interested in the goings on south of the border. All of the correspondence I read proved this. He obviously had spent the early days using all the right tactics of praise to get her to eventually go PA (and occasionally threw in the odd compliment to keep the fog going). She gladly went there with him.

It was informative that their last contact (to my knowledge) was an e-mail from him were he invoked a statement from her which was made 12 months previously. He cut and paste this into his e-mail saying how much he loved that she had said she loved him - and that yes, he loved her to. 

Of course he then went on to ask her if she would like to start up some physical again. And his wife was OK with it....except that if his wife knew how he really felt about my WS she, his wife, might insist they not see each other. All complete "open marriage" BS to add credence and entice my WS. All south of the border POSOM creepy spin.

Needless to say I felt duty bound to copy that scum bags wife on the e-mail. It cut him so bad he took out an AVO against me - sucker.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Rushwater said:


> First of all, in that last post of mine, I was referring to multiple posters, not just yours (ie. monogamy is un-natural). Second, just because you have convinced yourself that those of us who have not cheated are simply cheaters in waiting, in an effort to cope, knock yourself out. Third, my wife and I did go through a period of three years when there was little sex/intimacy. I was NEVER tempted to stray. Quite the opposite. I looked TO MY MARRIAGE for help, not outside of it. I encouraged my wife to see a physician to help her with her LD as well as IC for other issues which were related. We spent a lot of time discussing what I could do to help our marriage and our low level of intimacy. I am very much in love with my wife. It took us a while to get to where we are now, but things are good... and they would not be if I had... how did you put it.... oh yeah, if I had "wandered off the path". I agree that both parties have to work together to sort out a dysfunctional marriage. I was no saint in our marriage. I never cheated, but there was certainly a time when I was so caught up in my hobbies that I neglected her. But, did she cheat on me? NO. Did she raise hell with me in an effort to get my attention and action? Yes.
> 
> Look, I don't have a damned thing against you. And you can portray it any way that you want. You can say whatever you want if it makes you feel better as long as it does not violate TAM posting rules. But I will continue to call a spade a spade.


Nor I you. 

First, let's state where we might agree. 

Marriages take two people to maintain. 

Infidelity is ONE (1) way a spouse can neglect and abuse their significant other. There are MANY others. Some are just as hurtful.

A wayward is expected to "100% own their bad behavior for cheating". Agreed. I disagree with the statement which usually precedes this one: that the REST of the problems in a marriage are '50-50'. As an example, GameBoy should '100% OWN' his neglect. Jmom in no way encouraged this 50%. A spouse which refuses to have sex or affection is not '50%' responsible. Own your sh*t!

You seem to be intelligent and honest enough to admit that frequently, actions by the BS lead to the intense dissatisfaction which eventually lead to infidelity. That honesty is sometimes rare on TAM. And by NOT fixing that in R, it is in fact 'rugsweeping' marital problems. 

Of course, sometimes selfish/evil/stupid IS a valid reason. Not as much as the Betrayed would like to believe however ("I was depressed, out of work, hitting the bottle, yelling...but that doesn't excuse her infidelity." yeah...another 'saint')

Now...here is where we disagree as far as I can tell. You seem to imply that you and other 'morally superior' people just don't cheat. You 'can't' cheat. I happen to think that is not true. There are a lot of otherwise moral people who...failed. So I don't know your explanation for such people.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

JCD said:


> ........
> 
> It is the mark of extreme arrogance to say "I would never do that". It makes you complacent.
> .


No its not - it's the mark of knowing yourself well and knowing you would not do that no matter what the circumstances 

What's the arrogance in that? 

No good people who know themselves who have honest boundaries and integrity will not cheat or very very few of them.

This "we're all capable " is complete nonsense 

To cheat, to be a cheat, to deceive, to destroy a family unit with the knowledge of what you are doing, you need to have a particular remit, a particular set of morality cells that work in a specific way inside you.

The selfishness, the entitlement, for a cheat is always there inside. That's the bit waiting to come out. 

Intrinsically 'good' people have a sense of warning within them. I do. If I have ever been in a situation whereby I can feel myself getting close or a 'friendly' situation beginning to change I have dealt with it instantly. Right then made it clear this will not go in that direction and that's nomatter how problematic my marriage has been on and off 

I demanded from my very stbxw in our first few months 17 years ago that if we stayed together and one of us ever 'fell out of love' or were 'desperately unhappy' we would finish ............. *and not cheat* 

"Of course I could never do that to you" (I had been cheated on before)



.........Guess who kept their promise

(Btw in retrospect sadly my love blinded me to the reality of her and who and what she was but now it's easy to see given her mentality it was only ever going to end this way . More fool me)


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Headspin said:


> No its not - it's the mark of knowing yourself well and knowing you would not do that no matter what the circumstances
> 
> What's the arrogance in that?
> 
> ...


Good luck.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Rushwater said:


> It took us a while to get to where we are now, but things are good... and they would not be if I had... how did you put it.... oh yeah, if I had "wandered off the path". I agree that both parties have to work together to sort out a dysfunctional marriage. I was no saint in our marriage. I never cheated, but there was certainly a time when I was so caught up in my hobbies that I neglected her. But, did she cheat on me? NO. Did she raise hell with me in an effort to get my attention and action? Yes.


It's great that things worked out with your wife and that neither of you cheated. But not all situations and people are the same. It doesn't make them better or worse, just different. People can fail in a variety of ways. It doesn't mean they weren't doing the best they knew how to do when they failed, though.



Rushwater said:


> But I will continue to call a spade a spade.


And this translates to...because someone cheated, they can't know how they think or feel about that? That none of them can possibly be good people who did something very wrong? I think this is part of what JCD means by saying "wandered off the path". I suspect a number of people who cheat are otherwise decent people (not all, of course), and never _imagined_ that they would do such a thing. But sometimes people get lost or do terrible things, things that are incongruent with who they are. Obviously it doesn't happen to everyone. But it _does_ happen.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Rushwater said:


> Oh, I'm not sure why. I just keep reading people's posts inferring that those who do not cheat are not cheaters only because they have not cheated yet (insinuating that EVERYONE is a potential cheat)... or that cheating is simply "wandering off path", or worse, that monogamy is "unrealistic".... I'm not one of these people that wants a scorched Earth policy put on cheaters, however, I absolutely despise backpedalling and blame shifting, and that is exactly what I am seeing here.
> 
> You and I can simply agree to disagree.


I appreciate that you don't endorse the scorched earth policy. I don't think it really helps anything anyway. Far more useful to be able to have discussions.

Well, I do think a chunk of the population might cheat if in the right situation. Even my partner was very close to having an EA, and she hates cheating and has said she would never cheat. She prides herself on being honest and moral, and she's the best person I've ever known. Yet she became very emotionally caught up with someone who spoke to her in a sexual and overly familiar fashion (via text and on the phone) and she kept talking to that person even after receiving risqué pictures. Even after I voiced protests and concerns. (I found out about the pictures later - they were initially kept secret.) Contact with this person went on for several years. We actually had an argument in February about her still texting back to this person. (Another text message came through yesterday while we were together and I saw it because her phone was right there on the table between us, but she says she just ignores the messages.) If things had worked out differently when they met in person (if this person had acted more mature and less self-absorbed), I think my partner might have been snagged and reeled in the rest of the way into an EA. 

It's fine if we disagree, but I'm not sure where you are seeing backpedaling or blame-shifting. 

I don't believe that monogamy is unrealistic. I think it's what most people want, myself included.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> It's great that things worked out with your wife and that neither of you cheated. But not all situations and people are the same. It doesn't make them better or worse, just different. People can fail in a variety of ways. It doesn't mean they weren't doing the best they knew how to do when they failed, though.
> 
> 
> 
> And this translates to...because someone cheated, they can't know how they think or feel about that? That none of them can possibly be good people who did something very wrong? I think this is part of what JCD means by saying "wandered off the path". I suspect a number of people who cheat are otherwise decent people (not all, of course), and never _imagined_ that they would do such a thing. But sometimes people get lost or do terrible things, things that are incongruent with who they are. Obviously it doesn't happen to everyone. But it _does_ happen.


Ninety percent or so of WS who post here say some variation of 'I never expected to do this' or "I did something totally wrong and stupid and I can't believe I did that.'

These people, unless they are liars and/or insane to a person, sound like they generally have an otherwise decent moral compass.

When they come here, their story runs like this: I did an awful thing. I am NOT that kind of person but I felt so alone and pushed into things. I made a HUGE mistake. How do I fix this awful thing I did as quickly as possible because we (WE) are both hurting here?

The standard TAM response is "You only THINK you are a decent person. You are a foggy cake eater and until you admit you are the POS immoral person you are, your spouse will NEVER get over it."

To which, MOST of the WS say some variant of "Hey! I don't kick puppies. I am telling you I CARE about my spouse. I give to charity and help lost kids. Who the Hell are you to tell me I am human garbage?"

This goes back and forth for three pages until the majority of them run off. The rest continue to fight or collapse and abjectly crawl for the masses, doing a Henry the II March of Penance.

THAT is a common TAM inference: that there are 'good people'...and then there is the 'not so good' people. That is a hell of a way to start a conversation. "Oh...you are one of THOSE folks..." A real bonding moment.

There are friends I would trust with my back, but not my booze. There are friends I would trust with my money, but not my women. People are many faceted things. So I sort of reject the 'black and white' characterizations of ALL cheaters.

YES, some of them are exactly as described. And some are not.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

JCD said:


> "Hey! I don't kick puppies. I am telling you I CARE about my spouse. I give to charity and help lost kids. Who the Hell are you to tell me I am human garbage?"



No I dont kick puppies but I do do this 

I do commit adultery and ensure that my own kids now only see their dad once a week and every other weekend 

I give to charity and lost kids but have now guaranteed to have my own kids have a completely fked up life as they've lost their home and see little of their grandparents any more 

Oh and in some cases I've also taken a married man and made sure his kids now see him once a week and every other weekend as he gets divorced too

Honestly I am as good a person as it gets why are you doubting that 

I DO love my husband and my kids really and wouldn't hurt a fly 



....honest :scratchhead:


----------



## Jmom (Nov 8, 2013)

life101 said:


> If it was that bad, why didn't you get divorced? Just a simple question.


 Probably I should have. I thought about it for years. But some combination of: fear of the unknown, affection, familiarity, hope that things would eventually improve, and logistics of household/kids etc. kept me here.


----------



## Jmom (Nov 8, 2013)

JCD said:


> Nor I you.
> 
> First, let's state where we might agree.
> 
> ...


thanks, you're being very generous. In fairness, I did contribute to the bad feelings that preceded the EA. The more he retreated, the more I nagged. The more I nagged, the more he retreated. and so on and so on...


----------



## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

I will make this short and sweet. Cheaters mostly operate on being selfish and cowardly. They are usually too cowardly to fix the issues at home. The selfishness drives them to look elsewhere


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Chris made a valid point in fact a cheater confided in me that he cheated because he could.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, well, Let's build this out. Could that mean:

1. The cheater has such entitlement issues that they simply do not care about the fallout that could happen with broken relationships.
a. Divorce. Children shuttle between parents.
b. Psycho affair partners that make "Play Misty for Me" and "Fatal Attraction" look like Disney films.​
2. The cheater's partner is so easygoing that it's easy to sneak around. the cheater's partner has no sense of boundaries, believes that they're being cool with their partner hanging out with OSF's and so on.......


----------



## NothingWantsToChange (Nov 8, 2013)

JCD said:


> Ninety percent or so of WS who post here say some variation of 'I never expected to do this' or "I did something totally wrong and stupid and I can't believe I did that.'
> 
> These people, unless they are liars and/or insane to a person, sound like they generally have an otherwise decent moral compass.
> 
> ...


This is a good post. 

While I think this is a good board I also think that some people here go compleatly overboard. There is no answer that will fit everyone. Cheating is not black and white just like everything else. Relationships are complicated and humans are imperfect...it happens. For the most part cheaters aren't awful people and non cheaters aren't perfect. 

I would be more wary starting a relationship with someone who says "I would never ever cheat" then those who say "I cheated and I am sorry" we all make mistakes and we all deserve to be forgiven for them. No one is immune to or above cheating particularly of the emotional kind. Being moral is one thing but unless you are perfect which no one is I would encourage showing some compassion to others. Sure if your spouse cheats that is one thing but to run down a stranger on a message board isn't going to change a thing.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Jmom said:


> No, he really was playing video games. In our newfound feeling of transparency, he had me look at the logs of his game. Thousands of hours, going back to 2004.


Yes. But he was cheating you and your kids out of a meaningful marriage/family. Cheating with people, cheating with pixels.


----------



## Rushwater (Feb 11, 2013)

NothingWantsToChange said:


> Sure if your spouse cheats that is one thing but to run down a stranger on a message board isn't going to change a thing.


I do not think that I've seen that occur as of yet. Doesn't mean that is has not happened. I will be the first to admit that there are people on this board who have gone through bitter times with a WS and therefore cannot be objective. However, cheating, is a choice. You can say that nobody is "immune" to cheating.. Well, nobody is "immune" to murder, but I can confidently say that I will never commit murder. People can try to justify or "understand" why someone cheated on their family. But when push comes to shove, those people would not feel the same if the shoe were on the other foot.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

NothingWantsToChange said:


> I would be more wary starting a relationship with someone who says "I would never ever cheat" then those who say "I cheated and I am sorry" we all make mistakes and we all deserve to be forgiven for them. No one is immune to or above cheating particularly of the emotional kind. Being moral is one thing but unless you are perfect which no one is I would encourage showing some compassion to others. Sure if your spouse cheats that is one thing but to run down a stranger on a message board isn't going to change a thing.


I know what I would choose even though I've been bitten by the "I would never cheat" camp

So what would you do then?

Lets say you fall for a beautiful 'lovely' person but they have a moment of honesty and say "before we go on you need to know something about me I have cheated more than once, but I know I will never do that again" 

You'd take them on would you?

You'd consider it?

I'd be gone before they could draw another breath. 

In a sense you'd have to go through a process of 'reconciliation' about their past if you were even to consider it

Not for me anyway

You?


----------



## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I think it is one thing to cheat and then realize the mistake and work to fix it and then there is I cheated and I might as well destroy everyone and everything in my way getting out..

What I have come to discover is people make mistakes and unless you have a good therapist you will NEVER figure out what is the root of the issue to cause this behavior.. So the cycle repeats itself.. Granted some people can self fix and know what was wrong, others can't..

I can't begin to tell you how self destructive I am in relationships atm.. Only because the woman I am with now loves me and wants to understand and wants to stick around to help me am I with someone.. I'm a Betrayed Spouse.. 

Trust me I make mountains out of mole hills. I connect dots that shouldn't be connected.. I make fantasies a reality.. 

I can only imagine how screwed up my EX is.. She closed the door on me, our 13 year old son, her ENTIRE FAMILY... It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you something is very wrong.. Of course this Other man is so stupid or just happy he has the hottest woman of his life, he just don't care what issues she has.. But he will soon enough I would imagine..

But even I will say that everyone plays a part in the affair.. I know my shortcomings and what I should have done.. I just didn't. It doesn't justify an affair and it certainly doesn't justify the horrendous abuse at the end.. But I can look back during those times after the affair and remember the retarded things I told my friends.. The retarded thoughts I had as well.. 

Sometimes its like those movies where they show a chain of events that usually wouldn't matter until on this day it does.. 

We lose our way as a couple and its our jobs together to find our way together again.. Waywards sometimes can't, don't know or refuse to do this.. Its different for everyone..


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Rushwater said:


> I do not think that I've seen that occur as of yet. Doesn't mean that is has not happened. I will be the first to admit that there are people on this board who have gone through bitter times with a WS and therefore cannot be objective. However, cheating, is a choice. You can say that nobody is "immune" to cheating.. Well, nobody is "immune" to murder, but I can confidently say that I will never commit murder. People can try to justify or "understand" why someone cheated on their family. But when push comes to shove, those people would not feel the same if the shoe were on the other foot.


I've seen it at least three times, where some contrite individual comes seeking help but has sufficient sense of self worth that they don't let the "perfect" people tells them they are scum.

So they leave, getting NO help, while the self righteous pat the,selves on the back, telling themselves that they ran off another horrible self deluded liar.

The cheater MIGHT have had a poor grasp of what they did. Guess what? If they aren't here, they cannot be helped. Three more marriages put into the grave because of self righteousness instead of some understanding and sympathy.

Good work :smthumbup:

These thing can be fixed sometimes.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Hardtohandle said:


> I think it is one thing to cheat and then realize the mistake and work to fix it and then there is I cheated and I might as well destroy everyone and everything in my way getting out..
> 
> What I have come to discover is people make mistakes and unless you have a good therapist you will NEVER figure out what is the root of the issue to cause this behavior.. So the cycle repeats itself.. Granted some people can self fix and know what was wrong, others can't..
> 
> ...



Very well said.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Headspin said:


> I know what I would choose even though I've been bitten by the "I would never cheat" camp
> 
> So what would you do then?
> 
> ...



I can get that you are into self disclosure. I am in favor of it too.

Do you FULLY practice what you preach?

"I am a workaholic, so you will seldom see me."

"I have had a drinking problem most of my life..."

"I have serious anal control issues"

"I am now a paranoid due to a cheating spouse, so be ready for me to GPS your ass..."

Would you stay for some of these disclosures? 

We are all flawed creatures. A little grace goes a long way.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

JCD said:


> I can get that you are into self disclosure. I am in favor of it too.
> 
> Do you FULLY practice what you preach?
> 
> ...


We are flawed, however you're saying then showing a little grace will basically put me at risk with all those disclosures, then yep I practice what I preach - I'd rather be on my own than have to deal with any of that 

After two relationships that have lasted 21 years and been inflicted with infidelity I'll worry about me in the future. I'll never give of myself in the same way ever again. Unless I see some basic honesty in anyone I have no time for them at all.

Nothing spectacular just the basic. The woman I have chosen (that is clearly my fault) have been at their core dishonest and selfish.

I know of course not all are like they are but I can't seeing me trusting in it again to the same extent as I did before


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> Three more marriages put into the grave because of self righteousness instead of some understanding and sympathy.
> 
> Good work :smthumbup:
> 
> These thing can be fixed sometimes.


Hear that loyal spouses of TAM? These failed marriages are *OUR* fault. 

You're a funny guy, JCD.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> "I have serious anal control issues"


According to stats, incontinence is a leading cause of infidelity in the US of A.


----------



## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Jmom said:


> Probably I should have. I thought about it for years. But some combination of: fear of the unknown, affection, familiarity, hope that things would eventually improve, and logistics of household/kids etc. kept me here.


That's entitlement right there. You believed that you deserved more, but you were unwilling to let go what you had. So you decided that you could keep whatever marriage you had and also wanted to have something on the side.

Again, cheaters cheat because they are entitled. End of story.


----------



## Jmom (Nov 8, 2013)

life101 said:


> That's entitlement right there. You believed that you deserved more, but you were unwilling to let go what you had. So you decided that you could keep whatever marriage you had and also wanted to have something on the side.
> 
> Again, cheaters cheat because they are entitled. End of story.


I was also unwilling to inflict my choices on my kids, emotionally, financially, and geographically. And as I said, I didn't intend to get so consumed with the ea, just thought it would be something to fill the void. It was a very bad judgement on my part.


----------



## Moose Mania (Oct 28, 2013)

I have been a lurker on TAM for several years now. I joined an posted originally when my now xH discovered my affair. I had no intention of staying in my marriage and was looking for ways to help him. 
We have since divorced, I am remarried and he is in an LTR which will most likely become a marriage after I finish paying alimony in a couple years. I received some very good advice when I came here. 
I wish to this day that I could have gotten my H to come here at that time. He probably would have received a ton more help and support than I could have imagined.
I quit posting almost immediately, because for all the good advice I got, there were twice as many comments telling me what a terrible person I was. I was ready for some of that, but not the extent of what it was.
I KNEW what I did was wrong, I still know that and that has changed who I am forever. I think the biggest issue when I posted originally was that I admitted that I did not want R, and my H did not have a choice. I think that made me seem like I was not remorseful. I was very remorseful, but I was also very much done.

In the long run, what I did was still and will always be wrong and there is no suitable explanation for it. Trying to explain will always be read as trying to justify. We are both in a better place now and in healthier relationships, but I will always be "broken" in my own eyes and in the eyes of those who I hurt. I know the "why" is important for the BS to try and process, but I don't believe "why" can be summed up except by selfishness. 
There were a ton of problems in my marriage and I tried for many years to fix things. My H probably owned about 90% of the problems in our marriage, not the 50% people like to use as a standard, but in the end, I should have left without cheating an d now, that decision, that choice, will be a part of who I am for the rest of my life. 

Apologize for the length, for any typos and hope there are paragraph breaks... posting from my phone and not sure how this is going to look.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Healer said:


> Hear that loyal spouses of TAM? These failed marriages are *OUR* fault.
> 
> You're a funny guy, JCD.


When one communicates, in most cases, any misunderstanding of the message is the fault of the writer, not the reader.

Therefore, let me break this down even more simply for your comprehension.

We have waywards come here seeking help. Usually (see Moose Mania for an example) they meet insults, castigation, and blanket condemnation. They were seeking HEALING, Healer...and instead all they got was further emotional pain.

Not being masochists, they leave without any help or support, and most likely getting a divorce.

What was the point of this website again? Only helping the betrayed? If you had your way, no doubt that is all it would be.

I aim at a broader demographic. There are TWO people to help, not just one. And please do not pull that 'tough love' nonsense. Not considering the comments I've seen.

NOW...perhaps you are referring to the points I made regarding the betrayed harming their marriages THEMSELVES. I am not changing that message. If you cause your spouse to love you less through systematic abuse or your personal issues, the you certainly fostered an environment where infidelity was more, not less, likely.

Fault is a strong word. Helping your spouse not love you or being miserable is what it is.

If you are even a good spouse, this doesn't apply to you. If, however your mom should have smacked you in the head considering the way you are behaving...well...sorry, in some ways you WERE part of the problem.


----------



## NothingWantsToChange (Nov 8, 2013)

The above is pretty much what I have found. I have been met with hostility with every post and apparently don't understand the betrayed. I thought this was a place for all sides of infedelity but I guess not. I am done here...I meant no harm and good luck to you all. I understand people being bitter but I hope some of the people here who are stuck in a very black and white view of this topic can break that cycle. 

As a person who screwed up, took responsibility, and has been a better man for a long time now and has a stronger relationship now I thought I had something to offer but I fear some posters don't want to hear the other side.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Both my partner and I did and said things to damage our relationship. For that, we are both responsible. But I do not and have never held her responsible for my cheating. Were there internal processes that contributed? Yep. Did the badness of our relationship and the way she was with me fuel them? Yep. Was that on her? Nope. That was because something was wrong inside of me. I did not cope or react in the right way. She didn't earn it, she didn't deserve it.

See, most of us former waywards _know_ this and acknowledge it. If we try to explain what went into that internal process that led up to the cheating, we are not justifying, excusing, blame-shifting, feeling entitled, saying it was just because we could, or whatever else you might want to sling out there. We are _explaining_. The question "why" is asked SO often on here, but there are plenty of angry BSs who don't really want to hear the explanations. They just want to condemn on a personal level and stamp a generic derogatory label on all waywards. (Which does...what? It's just venting anger and aggression.) But for the BSs or other people who DO want to listen, those angry ones spoil things, because they keep detracting from the threads with posting things that contribute nothing to the conversation. It is _not_ helpful, even if it makes them feel good. And there are plenty of threads already out there for that purpose - "why we BSs despise WSs, remorseful or otherwise". I think JCD is right that said hostile BSs do not want TAM to also be a place for remorseful waywards to discuss and seek help. They seem to want it to only be for the betrayed. But in some cases, helping a wayward will directly help the betrayed, too. Those who want to reconcile, namely. Even the waywards who come here not getting it. If only more of the BSs would _talk_ to them instead of harassing and insulting, the outcome would be far better.


----------



## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> But in some cases, helping a wayward will directly help the betrayed, too. Those who want to reconcile, namely.


I think the Betrayed Spouse should come here to learn about themselves as well. 

I think for some this is the only form of therapy they have.. 
When a angry and bitter betrayed tells you fvck your WS and tells you to make sure that your WS is beaten into the ground for leaving.. The reality is they want you to do what they couldn't or wish they did with their Wayward Spouse.. 

But because your so fvcked up yourself you see this as good info.. Again like having a bad therapist.. 

For me after 11 months I can see much more clearly and I can say without a shadow of a doubt, there are many Betrayed Spouses on here that have not moved an inch since D-Day..

It just isn't healthy on so many levels.. Trust me when my therapist tells me I need to control myself or I will never have a good relationship or that I will eventually figure it out but I will burn through so many relationships until I figure it out.. You never know when that one person might come along.. Why do you want to chase them away because some other person fvcked you up.. 

My middle brother had a drinking problem.. He had a girlfriend that loved him.. I remember her breaking up with him and saying goodbye for good, she just couldn't take his drinking. She told him no one will ever love you more than I do.. That was probably 20 years ago.. 
She recently posted a picture of an actor on her FB page that looked like my brother.. I commented on it. She said she still loves him till this day.. 
My brother has been dead for 4 years.

I listen when the therapist takes the time to talk to me candidly.. I don't want these issues myself anymore.. 

Just recently on the life after divorce forum one poster almost 2 years into this is still wondering if he should take back his wife... 

I won't deny that I might be rushing into things dating wise and relationship wise., but even I know getting my ex back will never be a good thing. I compare it to being a reformed drug addict.. The yearning is there but you know its just no good.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

HTH, I applaud your posts in this thread. I think this forum becomes much more valuable as a place to heal and learn when everyone is honest with themselves. There are a variety of reasons for why infidelity occurs in relationships and there are a variety of types of people who succumb to cheating. Some cheaters are broken people who come into a relationship with a void(s) inside them that is up to them to fill. Others come into a relationship whole and later start to experience a void. Then they seek to fill that void. I think the latter type of cheater is by far the most common one out there in real life. It doesn't even mean that the BS in these situations are always the responsible one either. Sometimes a WS cheats as a reaction to a bad spouse, but other times a WS spouse cheats as a reaction to something bad that happened to him/her during the marriage that could be completely separate from how their spouse acted in the marriage (like a death of a child or parent, post partum depression, etc). 

I think the only sure thing that can be said about infidelity and why someone cheats is to fill a void that they find within themselves. You are ultimately responsible for keeping yourself "full". I think where people lose their way is when they rely on others to fill the void for them, and when they despair and get to the point of hopelessness (in reaction to whatever the problem is), then they are susceptible to stumbling and cheating. If you are a narcissist, you are trying to fill a void in yourself thru the fawning affection of others. If you are depressed, you are trying to find your happiness from others and not relying on yourself to find your own happiness. 

This is probably too simplistic, but it is probably the best "model" as I understand it. Those who can find their own happiness and fulfillment in life will likely have those strong character traits to be good people. Those who tend to rely on others to make them happy are more likely to stumble and fall into bad situations.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

I get what the BS are trying to say. Occasionally I find myself doing or saying things which, when I take a step back, I say 'WHOA! You can NOT go there!" 

So maybe there is something damaged inside of me.

BUT!

I am developing the ability to step back and reassess the things I say, do and think. I am better able to identify these danger situations. I have coping mechanisms to try to make these issues less dangerous.

So...the BS might be correct that I am always 'at risk'...just like an alcoholic.

BUT...I doubt the BS would say to just throw away loved alcoholics One can become a reformed alcoholic after all. Why can't one become a reformed cheater?

Some BS won't take that risk. I can understand that. But I would suggest that there is a vast difference between avoiding that situation and standing on a podium screaming at the evil alcoholics. Anyone looking at that situation would think that such a spiteful person was damaging someone who needs help.

Q.E.D.


----------



## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

I have been trying to catch up on this thread. It is a very interesting discussion.

There are times when we get caught up in saving the BS from the WS. There are times when we see the same words from a new WS posts that we have heard from our own WS. Triggers happen. It is a vicarious rollercoaster for sure.

Absolutely the pain we experience should not be projected on the WS who dare post. We need to stick with constructive advice, and glean the things they say to help us understand what was in the minds of our WSs. Easy to say, difficult to do.

I find myself sharing empathy for the newly betrayed. It is often a way to gain their trust. We feel what they have felt. We often get them angry to act. It seems that the type of people that come to TAM (me included) need to find the anger to cause them to act constructively.

My frustration is with the perpetual suffering of the unhappily married. It is not my business, but a D would end it for many. A bad marriage, or a bad R is worse than a D, IMO.

Cheaters cheating? Probably there are countless reasons. Cheaters I know have shared parts of their stories. Cheating isn't the end of the world. What tells me about a person is how they grow, or change once the cheating is exposed.

Cheating is a tough fear to overcome when it has happened in a merciless way. Will lightning strike us twice? Time will tell. The ultimate goal is to pick a spouse that won't cheat. Then it is our responsiblity to not have bad behavior that will allow them to have a "reason" to cheat. Finally, when they do cheat, we need to give them a chance to reap consequences for their own growth. This, imo, is usually done by D.

My exWW is a better woman now than she was 3 years ago. I would like to think that the D was the best thing to help her grow. It was for me.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

To answer the original question posted: 

Why do people cheat? 

Well the answer is complicated and highly individualized. In aggregate people cheat for many reasons. Those reasons may be justified, or justifiable or unjustified or unjustifiable. 

Unless and until you are privy to what goes on behind closed doors in the marriage, you really can’t guess which one applies. 

There are also differences between valid reasons, and invalid reasons for cheating. Valid reasons are facts offered as an explanation for what drove waywards to cheat. 

Invalid reasons are simply excuses. They are not rooted in fact. They are either a rewriting of the marital history or silly reasons used as a way to blameshift.

However, not only waywards blameshift. After posting on this board for awhile, I see plenty of blameshifting on the part of the *relationally* loyal spouse, too. 

There are also many posters who claim to be trying to reconcile with a Wayward who are either transferring their anger to all waywards that post here, or they are still very very angry at their own wayward spouse. 

These posters appear to be continually punishing their spouse, based on their rant-filled postings. 

There is a difference between consequences for negative behaviors and ongoing never-ending punishment, despite many positive changes a wayward might make. 

IMO, SOME BSs here, the majority being men, appear to be extremely hateful toward any and all disloyal spouses.

They rail and lash out and call all cheaters cowards, without even knowing all the FACTS. Yet, SOME admit to staying in an unhappy marriage. Is that brave?

Some, based on postings I have seen, have, over MANY years, emotionally brow beat their wives with the threat of divorce. .... Something that would be guaranteed to make a financially dependent housewife feel very unsafe and unloved. Yet, they insist they are the brave loyal spouses. 

Why because they didn't divorce and they didn't cheat.

How is it brave to want a divorce for years, but instead of leaving They stay to detain and emotionally torture their spouse?

Another scenario is the postings from men who were considering divorce for years, yet stayed in the marriage until they finally met someone else that they LUSTED after and wanted to date. 

So, then, AND ONLY THEN, they finally divorce their wives to begin dating that new *lust object[/.B] But somehow they feel that they did not cheat because they did not stick their penis into the woman before they divorced their wives. They simply found the chaste other women first, and then, with the other women waiting chastely in the wings, they divorced their wife. 

IMO, A really brave man would have divorced and lived on his own for a few years to find himself before even dating after a divorce. 

I have read posts from male BSs who go to strip clubs and get lap dances, even though their wives' have said that behavior hurts them. 

Then, when their wives cheat they are amazed. 

They seem to be unaware or oblivious to the fact that 80 to 90 percent of women polled say that strip clubs and lap dances, which often involve touching of breasts and a strange women squirming on the man's erect penis coyly tucked in the man's pants covered lap, are both cheating. 

So, the other women only squirmed on a guys lap until he squirted. But, in his mind, he's still a virgin 'cause he didn't stick it in the lap dancer, and only squirted in his pants while groping and ogling her. 

I have seen men who claim viewing porn, even when their wives have REPEATEDLY told them that thy find it degrading, disrespectful and embarrassing, when their husbands view porn, and some consider it cheating....., yet these men continue to view porn. 

Those same men are then outraged when their wives cheat. 

I also find that women on average ARE more willing to work on their own issues after an affair, whereas men resist that. 

A larger percentage of male betrayed spouses appear to develop a near neurotic obsession with relentlessly playing the victim card, and refusing to own Any responsibility for the breakdown in their marriage. 

YES, There should be consequences for cheating, but some of the betrayed spouses go far beyond consequences by relentlessly punishing their wayward spouse. 

IMO, these reconciliations are false and will fail because the relationally loyal spouse refuses to address their own rampant disloyalty's to their marriage vows.

Is an affair wrong. I used to think it was ALWAYS WRONG. 

But after reading posts here from angry aggressive relentlessly unforgiving stubborn, mostly male, betrayed spouses who are still punishing and berating their wives, while still refusing to accept any responsibility for the break down of the marriage. I think, YES, SOME AFFAIRS ARE JUSTIFIED. 

IT is not my recommendation to cheat, because the cheater risks losing their marriage. 

But in the end, if a relationally loyal spouse refuses to address issues, or is stubborn about owning any issues, the other spouse has repeatedly discussed, then there is not much of a marriage to begin with. It’s a dictatorship run by the RELATIONALLY loyal spouse. A relationally only loyal spouse who sees himself as superior because he is physically loyal while being disloyal in a myriad of other ways.

Disloyalty and disrespect in a marriage can take many forms, yet SOME betrayed spouses stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that fact.

Why is cheating called "cheating?

It's called cheating because the cheating spouse is TAKING something from the marriage. 

They are cheating the loyal spouse out of time, emotional energy, and financial resources among other things. 

A spouse can be cheated out of those things just as easily by a lap dance, or obsessive use of video games, or too many men's night's out, or strip clubs, etc.

People need to acknowledge that, IMO.*


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

I've decided that nothing good will come from a longer response from me on this subject, I'm just totally blown away. If I may ask instead - what on earth do you hold against people who have been betrayed - generally speaking??

I take offence being called a _relational loyal spouse_, that my wife's cheating_ is justified_ by proxy etc. Even the little gem in Plan 9's post, which I btw liked in it's entirety as an honest attempt to create a balanced post - but this "It doesn't even mean that the BS in these situations _are always_ the responsible one either..."

I'm pleased to see, that you think there are in fact a tiny part of the betrayed spouses out there who didn't deserve it. Wow, just wow.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

H2H, great post. No doubt in some cases it is better to let the wayward go and move on. It really just depends.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> To answer the original question posted:
> 
> Why do people cheat?
> 
> ...


*


I'm going to go out on a limb, here, and risk the fairly decent amount of WS credibility I have earned on TAM and let the pieces fall where they may. I know that a lot of remorseful strayer's comments rub many, if not most, of you the wrong way. Even this former WS will admit that I have winced upon reading some of his previous posts. But, with the exception of one sentence in this comment, I fully support the point that he is trying to make. The only statement that remorseful strayer made that I do not agree with is this: "I think, YES, SOME AFFAIRS ARE JUSTIFIED." I looked up the word "justified" and this was the definition: 1. having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason. I believe that replacing the words "good" or "legitimate" with the word "understandable" would enable me to accept that definition. Once again, there are no justifications for cheating, because nothing makes it good or legitimate. But, there are always reasons. Sometimes, there are reasons that are more understandable than others. 

Even in the rare cases when a WS has been able to successfully convince the TAMers that they were, in fact, in terribly unhappy and/or dysfunctional marriages, and that they did, repeatedly, communicate, pre-A, their unhappiness to their spouses, they did work on their own issues, they did attend IC, they did request MC, but those pleas were disregarded and ignored, they are then told that they should have, could have, and that there is no excuse for not having first gotten a divorce. It can be repeated over and over and over again, that divorce is always the honorable option, but realistically speaking, there are some marriages, that for any number of reasons, when a divorce is simply not a viable option. Children, financial issues, health problems, property, insurance, jobs, familial obligations, etc. are all factors which each individual must consider. There are those who are fortunate enough to have adequate means and/or family support, higher education, good health, or other resources who may simply be incapable of comprehending those types of issues that are very real challenges for others. 

For certain BS's who refuse to acknowledge any contributing factors for infidelity other than the WS's selfishness, sense of entitlement, general lack of character, or the WS simply being a "bad person," I do not question why "some" have found themselves to be the victim of infidelity on more than one occasion. Infidelity is NEVER good or legitimate. But, I am not incapable of comprehending that sometimes the reasons are more understandable than others. And, sometimes, those reasons begin with the BS's refusal to work on THEIR side of the road in the marriage and end with the WS's decision to go outside of the marriage as their only means (other than divorce) of getting their needs met. Not all needs are selfish. We are all human beings. We all have needs and we all have a breaking point. That said, I wish to Hell that I'd never reached mine. Likewise, I wish that my BS had responded to my pleas and had chosen to deal with his own issues before I reached that point. I may have willingly chosen to jump off of the cliff into infidelity. But, my husband's, years long, emotional and physical abandonment of me had theoretically put me on that cliff and he was driving towards me going 100 mph. I jumped. Now, he, our children, and I are all paying the price for BOTH of our failures. 

On a brighter note, because we are BOTH owning our share of the blame for the colossal mess of a marriage that WE created, and we are BOTH working on our own personal issues, as well as working towards making amends towards one another, we are, now, 17 months into reconciliation.*


----------



## Jmom (Nov 8, 2013)

EI said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb, here, and risk the fairly decent amount of WS credibility I have earned on TAM and let the pieces fall where they may. I know that a lot of remorseful strayer's comments rub many, if not most, of you the wrong way. Even this former WS will admit that I have winced upon reading some of his previous posts. But, with the exception of one sentence in this comment, I fully support the point that he is trying to make. The only statement that remorseful strayer made that I do not agree with is this: "I think, YES, SOME AFFAIRS ARE JUSTIFIED." I looked up the word "justified" and this was the definition:_ 1. having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason._ I believe that replacing the words "good" or "legitimate" with the word "understandable" would enable me to accept that definition. Once again, there are no justifications for cheating, because nothing makes it good or legitimate. But, there are always reasons. Sometimes, there are reasons that are more understandable than others.
> 
> Even in the rare cases when a WS has been able to successfully convince the TAMers that they were, in fact, in terribly unhappy and/or dysfunctional marriages, and that they did, repeatedly, communicate, pre-A, their unhappiness to their spouses, they did work on their own issues, they did attend IC, they did request MC, but those pleas were disregarded and ignored, they are then told that they should have, could have, and that there is no excuse for not having first gotten a divorce. It can be repeated over and over and over again, that divorce is always the honorable option, but realistically speaking, there are some marriages, that for any number of reasons, when a divorce is simply not a viable option. Children, financial issues, health problems, property, insurance, jobs, familial obligations, etc. are all factors which each individual must consider. There are those who are fortunate enough to have adequate means and/or family support, higher education, good health, or other resources who may simply be incapable of comprehending those types of issues that are very real challenges for others.
> 
> ...


Very well said. We are 6 weeks into reconciliation and it's been incredibly intense -- anger, crying, blame, apologies on both sides. It's like the emotions we were both repressing are all making up for lost time. I'm curious what things will look like a year down the road.


----------



## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Sounds like a lot of threads of why not R.

The most important question to ask the cheater first is why R?


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

EI said:


> ... "I think, YES, SOME AFFAIRS ARE JUSTIFIED." I looked up the word "justified" and this was the definition:_ 1. having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason._ I believe that replacing the words "good" or "legitimate" with the word "understandable" would enable me to accept that definition.


Sorry but you’re then actually changing the definition of the the word ‘understandable’ means a different to those other words. Again It always looks like you’re trying to desperately to change the goalposts, to actually change the definition of what justified really means. Again ultimately it / your are, in the eyes of an ‘experienced’ betrayed spouse, merely trying to minimise your actions so that you can live with yourself and what you’ve perpetrated a little easier.

It will never do that in reality. And it shouldn’t either. 



EI said:


> Once again, there are no justifications for cheating, because nothing makes it good or legitimate. But……


That actually makes me laugh because right there, you’ve done what every wayward does after the act as part of EVERY script - “This, that happened and “then” and “this” “when” “how” blah blah …….BUT………….. It’s the ‘BUT’ that simply does not work, never does, never did - and never will 



EI said:


> Even in the rare cases when a WS has been able to successfully convince the TAMers that they were, in fact, in terribly unhappy and/or dysfunctional marriages, and that they did, repeatedly, communicate, pre-A, their unhappiness to their spouses, they did work on their own issues, they did attend IC, they did request MC, but those pleas were disregarded and ignored, they are then told that they should have, could have, *and that there is no excuse for not having first gotten a divorce*.


Yep that's the bit that none of you former waywards get, want to get or the bit you keep coming back to that you so desperately hope will NOT appear. It's the bit you cannot escape. Post adultery it’s your blind spot.

There, right there, getting past this one fact, nomatter how hard you try is, impossible. No amount of ‘understanding will ever give you the justification you had for doing what you did and knowingly choosing to cause so much pain to those who you apparently you love more than any other.



EI said:


> It can be repeated over and over and over again, that divorce is always the honorable option, but realistically speaking, there are some marriages, that for any number of reasons, when a divorce is simply not a viable option. Children, financial issues, health problems, property, insurance, jobs, familial obligations, etc. are all factors which each individual must consider. There are those who are fortunate enough to have adequate means and/or family support, higher education, good health, or other resources who may simply be incapable of comprehending those types of issues that are very real challenges for others.


Sorry that’s a cop out. When it does get to the point of no return - one of you wants out that badly then there isn’t much that is going to keep you there - shouldn’t be . Life will be harder if you leave ? so what that’s the choice that ‘goes with the choice’. Impractical ?!,problematic, less money, less of a bigger house. None of those IF you are that unhappy should be keeping you in a marriage _that you then use to cake eat your way through the treachery you happily created and perpetrate. _

There are some, very few that simply cannot get out but frankly where there’s a will there’s a way. Let’s face you found the courage to **** upon every body else in your lives so why stay because that’s easier and unload some more . That decision right there is the most basic fundamental dishonesty, to stay knowing even though difficult you should go and be ‘clean’ 



EI said:


> ... For certain BS's who refuse to acknowledge any contributing factors for infidelity other than the WS's selfishness, sense of entitlement, general lack of character, or the WS simply being a "bad person,"


Of course a marriege is two way and I’m the first to agree no one is perfect and there are always contributing factors to the demise of a marriage but the balance of that equilibrium, once infidelity rears its ugly face is completely upended. 

It’s easy to see why some people get pushed closer to an infidelity but it’s also easy to see that having got to that point they are in complete control of the act and it’s consequences thereafter. 
I’m afraid at that point “understanding” goes out of the window to be replaced by *choosing* treachery betrayal pain all around nomatter what the balance of any relationship is those choices are exactly that – CHOICES. Choosing to do bad things does not make you a murderer but it sure as hell makes you a badder / worse person than before you chose to carry it through.

Somebody who has committed adultery is definitely a ‘more bad’ person than before when they did not do that, it’s not arguable. It’s a bad act with bad intentions all around based upon greed, a selfishness and entitlement and with no care AT ALL for all the people it damages

I’d like to really push this point - I don’t know you and I assume you are a perfectly reasonable good hearted person. However this particular part of you that has ‘gone wrong’ shall we say, because you CHOSE to do it, makes you a person I could not trust in any way. Making CHOICES that hurt other people when you could CHOOSE NOT to in respect of how you ‘love’ somebody makes you in my and many other peoples opinion a worse person than me for instance. It’s not debateable imo 

I have chosen NOT to hurt people in the way in which you have and you may call it arrogant but I feel I am a better person than you for it. You’re not a murderer but for what you are capable of and I am not, I make me out to be the ‘better’ person than you. That’s only my opinion and I am not trying hurt you here just arguing my case about what cheating and betrayal REALLY IS and not what many try to make seem to be and I notice the growing call in the last year on here to legitimise, to justify, to minimise betrayal


----------



## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

You wanna cheat? Go right ahead but don't do it on my watch. I'm a bad spouse - you're over me? Then leave. Should I leave? Probably, but I haven't as yet so we're still together. Wanna cheat? Go right ahead, but pack your bags first. Then it wont be cheating at all. Get it?


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Horizon said:


> Go right ahead, but pack your bags first. Then it wont be cheating at all. Get it?


Quite

People on here talk like it's complex rocket science

It's not 

For the betrayer it's in 90% of cases keeping your options open in case it all goes wrong that then becomes eating great chunks of cake


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Headspin said:


> I know what I would choose even though I've been bitten by the "I would never cheat" camp
> 
> So what would you do then?
> 
> ...


No kids with this person, no history, and more than one affair to boot... I'd say 'thanks for being honest, that's such an important thing in a relationship', and lose her phone number...

As for the word 'understandable', and the justifications and excuses... everyone that cheats thinks that they have the good reasons, or the justification.. That's how it works. Others cheat, because they are bad, but you.. well you (anyone that still carries excuses), you cheated because you had a 'reason' (aka excuse/justification) to. You built up so much resentment that it was all okay and even deserved to lie and deceive your spouse. You even made a few half hearted attempts at fixing your marriage, like that ILYBINILWY speech, and that time you suggested MC and your spouse just thought you were having PMS... you forgot to mention you were going to boink another man if he didn't go, that little tidbit of info.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

jim123 said:


> Sounds like a lot of threads of why not R.
> 
> The most important question to ask the cheater first is why R?


There don't seem to be that many "why not R" threads out there... 

Each wayward has to personally answer this question for their betrayed. For my partner, she only wanted for me to be safe for her to love and be with. She already felt that I was the best person for her and would rather be with me over anyone else, despite the infidelity. So more than why should we R, her question was, "Can you be the person I need you to be in order for us to R?" I said yes, and I've been busy working on it and proving it all year. She is happy with my changes and is now able to start believing again. We have our future back.


----------



## Moose Mania (Oct 28, 2013)

I do not believe that cheating can ever be justified. It really is a choice and regardless of the circumstances in the marriage, it is a wrong choice. 
To say "if it's so bad, just leave" or to generalize that all who cheat are cake eaters, or that cheating is the worst thing anyone can do are not necessarily fair statements.
In my case, I had told my H for many years what I needed, what we needed to work on, how even the smallest change could make big differences. He simply didn't care. He believed he was happy, he knew I was not happy, and he thought the sum of that meant we were OK. 

He knew I was going to leave, he refused to believe I would leave. He used violent threats to manipulate me into staying. I was the primary bread winner and primary care giver for our children. I was his taxi, his ATM, his housekeeper.
When my affair was discovered, he finally had a reason for our failed marriage. It was ALL my fault. It was OK to divorce, because I was the one who failed. 
The first month was obviously the worst. He was angry, I found TAM, left quickly but lurked and found help for both of us. 

We're a few years out now, have had many conversations about our marriage and what had gone wrong. We are cordial with each other, can interact without drama and are both happier and healthier now. I do not believe that we could have had this outcome if I had not cheated and my now xH agrees. He did not KNOW he was just as unhappy, he didn't want a failed marriage. He was comfortable and did not want change. My A gave him an out. 
I regret that I cheated and I continue to work on myself, but I honestly don't believe any of this would be possible if I had just left.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Moose Mania said:


> I do not believe that cheating can ever be justified. It really is a choice and regardless of the circumstances in the marriage, it is a wrong choice.
> To say "if it's so bad, just leave" or to generalize that all who cheat are cake eaters, or that cheating is the worst thing anyone can do are not necessarily fair statements.
> In my case, I had told my H for many years what I needed, what we needed to work on, how even the smallest change could make big differences. He simply didn't care. He believed he was happy, he knew I was not happy, and he thought the sum of that meant we were OK.
> 
> ...


It's a tough lesson to have to learn the hard way... that an affair doesn't fix a broken marriage. You don't fix a fire by pouring gasoline on it. You want to believe that it wouldn'ta have been possible without your affair, but actually the thing that probably changed was communication and honesty. You could have had those things to begin with, and I don't mean asking for MC, I mean telling your H that you had feelings for another man, that you had brought another person into the marriage without him knowing.

You use the violent threats as an excuse, did it ever occur to you that a violent person might be more violent when they find out you're cheating on them? You might turn them into a killer, or get you or your OM hurt? Why are threats of violence an excuse to cheat, but not a reason to get a restraining order or go to a shelter?


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> There don't seem to be that many "why not R" threads out there...
> 
> Each wayward has to personally answer this question for their betrayed. For my partner, she only wanted for me to be safe for her to love and be with. She already felt that I was the best person for her and would rather be with me over anyone else, despite the infidelity. So more than why should we R, her question was, "Can you be the person I need you to be in order for us to R?" I said yes, and I've been busy working on it and proving it all year. She is happy with my changes and is now able to start believing again. We have our future back.


I actually read Jim's suggestion as a reflection on all the justifications listed, meaning the opposite, the unfaithfull should answer "Why R?" if everything in the marriage is so terrible that you just had to, and couldn't see any other option but to stray.

I may be wrong, but nonetheless it's a good question to ask those who claim that the horrible marriage is the direct reason for infidelity. But it's even better to ask the WS both questions - why would you R with me, if our marriage is so horrible, and why should I R with you, if you're not safe to be with? (and I know that a lot of BS wouldn't ask this out of insecurity and fear of the unknown - myself included - I didn't ask)

Some may find it easy to answer, others may find it more difficult. And those who find it difficult, I think, will not appreciate the gift of R. JMHO.


----------



## Daisy10 (Nov 10, 2013)

Horizon said:


> You wanna cheat? Go right ahead but don't do it on my watch. *I'm a bad spouse - you're over me?* Then leave. Should I leave? Probably, but I haven't as yet so we're still together. Wanna cheat? Go right ahead, but pack your bags first. Then it wont be cheating at all. Get it?


Re the bolded part: I think sometimes the cheater is not over their spouse and wants to cake eat. And sometimes they are over their spouse and stay for money and/or kids. Not that I'm saying the latter is justifiable but just stating what I've observed. The latter seems the most stubborn to me because it can go on forever like that, assuming no one gets outted/caught.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

cpacan said:


> I actually read Jim's suggestion as a reflection on all the justifications listed, meaning the opposite, the unfaithfull should answer "Why R?" if everything in the marriage is so terrible that you just had to, and couldn't see any other option but to stray.
> 
> I may be wrong, but nonetheless it's a good question to ask those who claim that the horrible marriage is the direct reason for infidelity. But it's even better to ask the WS both questions - why would you R with me, if our marriage is so horrible, and why should I R with you, if you're not safe to be with? (and I know that a lot of BS wouldn't ask this out of insecurity and fear of the unknown - myself included - I didn't ask)
> 
> Some may find it easy to answer, others may find it more difficult. And those who find it difficult, I think, will not appreciate the gift of R. JMHO.


My wife said that the reasons are all stupid, and that the marriage can never be bad enough to justify what she did (good answer), and that it was all her stupid selfish bad choices. She also said that she blew up the problems to justify the bad choices, that it really wasn't as bad as she made it out to be in her mind and to other people. She appreciates the gift of R, and lets me know first thing when she wakes up, and last thing before she goes to sleep. I appreciate her owning it and not putting her bad choices on me, since I really had no say in any of it.. If the marriage is so horrible that you're about to go outside of it and fall into the arms of another, it might be worth letting your spouse know how bad things are.. they obviously have no idea, probably because when many cheaters cheat, they try to give the illusion that all is well aside from a ILYBINILWY speech and a mention of MC. Confusing mixed signals to BS... one day they're fine and happy (probably met OM at hotel for quickie) and the next, you need MC. No mention of the motel... or OM... or how unsafe they are making life for you.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Moose Mania said:


> We're a few years out now, have had many conversations about our marriage and what had gone wrong. We are cordial with each other, can interact without drama and are both happier and healthier now. I do not believe that we could have had this outcome if I had not cheated and my now xH agrees. He did not KNOW he was just as unhappy, he didn't want a failed marriage. He was comfortable and did not want change. My A gave him an out.
> I regret that I cheated and I continue to work on myself, but I honestly don't believe any of this would be possible if I had just left.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why ? what would have happened if you "just left" 

What would have been worse about that than you cheating on him?

I'm genuinely fascinated by that.

You could have left being so unhappy. It would have hurt him and you. But in time he would have respected you for your honesty at least

How could he (and lets be frank his 'respect' for you will be little although he might not show that) think of you in a better light after you had cheated on him? 

You're saying here you having an affair was good for you and him :scratchhead:


----------



## Moose Mania (Oct 28, 2013)

russell28 said:


> It's a tough lesson to have to learn the hard way... that an affair doesn't fix a broken marriage. You don't fix a fire by pouring gasoline on it. You want to believe that it wouldn'ta have been possible without your affair, but actually the thing that probably changed was communication and honesty. You could have had those things to begin with, and I don't mean asking for MC, I mean telling your H that you had feelings for another man, that you had brought another person into the marriage without him knowing.
> 
> You use the violent threats as an excuse, did it ever occur to you that a violent person might be more violent when they find out you're cheating on them? You might turn them into a killer, or get you or your OM hurt? Why are threats of violence an excuse to cheat, but not a reason to get a restraining order or go to a shelter?


It's a very tough lesson and I did go about things the wrong way. I didn't really have feelings for the OM, it was a short A and I was actually pretty bad at hiding it. The first time my H asked if I was cheating I said yes. He asked who I said X. 
After everything was over , I learned about the term exit affair, which perfectly describes what I had.
The violent threats are not an excuse. My H was raised in a turbulent home and it was not uncommon for my FIL to be seen tending the garden with his 357 strapped to his belt when my SIL and her X were having custody issues. Violence or the threat of violence were "normal" when it came to protecting what was theirs. 
Police, courts, protection orders, in my mind, were not an option and would cause more harm than good. Probably wrong, but that's what I thought at the time.
I knew bringing another person into the marriage might put more people at risk, but it also gave me a sense of security. Somewhere to run, someone to help me. 
It was definitely a very flawed and very selfish idea. I felt trapped. I didn't just give my H his out, I gave myself MY out, but at the expense of my dignity, my character everything.
NOT the way to go, and if I could do it over, things would be done a lot differently.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Why ? what would have happened if you "just left"
> 
> What would have been worse about that than you cheating on him?
> 
> ...


It's easier to spin it as a thing that worked out for the best, as opposed to the thing that destroyed peoples trust of you and made you feel bad about yourself. It's an ugly thing to have to look at in reality, so they gas light themselves into believing it was a good thing for everyone involved. It was all in good fun.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Moose Mania said:


> I gave myself MY out, but at the expense of my dignity, my character everything.
> NOT the way to go, and if I could do it over, things would be done a lot differently.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But you could of course have simply said "you know what - I've had enough of this sh!t I'm out of it" "You'll get the legal papers next week" 

I'm amazed really, you live with a violent or probably intimidating person? - you leave 

That's it. 

You just leave


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Headspin said:


> But you could of course have simply said "you know what - I've had enough of this sh!t I'm out of it" "You'll get the legal papers next week"
> 
> I'm amazed really, you live with a violent or probably intimidating person? - you leave
> 
> ...


But her cheating helped him realize he was unhappy, he wouldn't have ever found that out if she didn't boink another behind his back.. She helped him.

Or... He's happy now because she left, and it's not because of the way she left. 

Instead of being thankful that he didn't kill her and isn't in prison, she's thankful that she did the right thing and fixed them both by cheating. Gas lighting.. it's not just for the betrayed spouse.

It's pretty amazing to watch, I agree....


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Moose Mania said:


> It's a very tough lesson and I did go about things the wrong way. I didn't really have feelings for the OM, it was a short A and I was actually pretty bad at hiding it. The first time my H asked if I was cheating I said yes. He asked who I said X.
> After everything was over , I learned about the term exit affair, which perfectly describes what I had.
> The violent threats are not an excuse. My H was raised in a turbulent home and it was not uncommon for my FIL to be seen tending the garden with his 357 strapped to his belt when my SIL and her X were having custody issues. Violence or the threat of violence were "normal" when it came to protecting what was theirs.
> Police, courts, protection orders, in my mind, were not an option and would cause more harm than good. Probably wrong, but that's what I thought at the time.
> ...


I like this post, because you actually demonstrates that you learned from the experience, which is paramount for me (not specifically you, but people in general)


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Moose Mania said:


> It's a very tough lesson and I did go about things the wrong way. I didn't really have feelings for the OM, it was a short A and I was actually pretty bad at hiding it. The first time my H asked if I was cheating I said yes. He asked who I said X.
> After everything was over , I learned about the term exit affair, which perfectly describes what I had.
> The violent threats are not an excuse. My H was raised in a turbulent home and it was not uncommon for my FIL to be seen tending the garden with his 357 strapped to his belt when my SIL and her X were having custody issues. Violence or the threat of violence were "normal" when it came to protecting what was theirs.
> Police, courts, protection orders, in my mind, were not an option and would cause more harm than good. Probably wrong, but that's what I thought at the time.
> ...


It's good that you realize this now. I think that's important for you to regain your dignity and self respect. I wish you the best.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

> It's a tough lesson to have to learn the hard way... that an affair doesn't fix a broken marriage.


Actually that is inaccurate. It fixed my marriage. Without it, I would have had to divorce my wife. 

There are studies to support this notion, that IN SOME CASES an affair can save and strengthen a marriage. 

It only works however if *both* people in the marriage can be, or can be trained to be, introspective enough to examine and own their own issues. 

If cheating is a deal breaker for someone, then let the spouse go. You will be doing the spouse a favor rather than being bitter and angry for the rest of the marriage. 

For me personally, a sexual tryst would not be a deal breaker. 

Now if my wife told me she was no longer in love with me, that would be my deal breaker. At that point, I would ask her if she meant it, maybe give her some time to talk to a counselor, but if the answer was that she still no longer loved me or NEVER loved me. I would move on. 

My affair partner repeatedly told me that she NEVER loved her husband. In fact she said he had a hairy, fat body and he disgusted her. She was sweet to his face, because he was a good provider. That's all. That's very sad.

When my wife was disinterested in sex for ten years, I had many times asked her if she would be happier if she would divorce me. I did NOT threaten to divorce her. I asked her if her lack of interest in sex for ten years, meant she was no longer in love with me or was unhappy and that maybe she was too loyal or kind to ask for a divorce. 

She said, no. She actually cried and said that marriage is about more than just sex and if I loved her, really loved here I would still love her without sex. Sigh.

If she were ill, I would agree with that. But her lack of interest in sex was due to her new Buddhist bent and belief celibacy would lead to enlightenment.

Also, if I lost my wife permanently due to the affair, I would have simply accepted that, learned a lesson, and moved on. 

Both my wife and I could easily find new partners.


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

So you truly believe that it's the infidelity that improves the marriage? Not improved communication and introspection?


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Actually that is inaccurate. It fixed my marriage. Without it, I would have had to divorce my wife.


It's very accurate, the thing that 'fixes' the marriage isn't the affair.. it's the honesty and accountability. The A can force those things, but it's not the cure.

If I'm drunk driving, and I crash my car, and while they are examining me, they say that I have cancer but they found it early and remove it to save my life. Does that mean that drunk driving saved my life? Was it now justifiable that I was drinking and driving, because it caused a good outcome?


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

cpacan said:


> So you truly believe that it's the infidelity that improves the marriage? Not improved communication and introspection?


It improved the marriage and all of the above.

This site is about saving marriages. 

There are sites like chumplady that advocate ALWAYS DESTROYING the marriage after infidelity, no matter what the cause.


----------



## Moose Mania (Oct 28, 2013)

I don't know how to quote from multiple posts or copy & paste from my phone, so this might be a little messy, but going to try to address the comments...
I'm not saying my affair was "good" for either of us. I don't know what would have happened if I had just left. I did not make that choice. At the time, I did not believe I could leave safely. I essentially used my AP to help me vet where I didn't think I could get on my own. 

His trust in me never existed. He was broken too, and I spent over 20 years listening to him tell me that no women can be trusted that I couldn't be trusted, trying to earn his trust, always to no avail. In the end, I became the person he thought I was. 

Again, I'm not trying to justify, blame shift, gas-light, this is how my mind was working at the time. I do not believe it was right and if I could go back and do things over, I would not cheat, I would leave, but.I know a lot more now than I did then, and I know it because of what happened.

The end result, which was the end of my marriage, was the right result for us. I do not believe my affair was "good" for me or my H, but in the end, it did make us both better people. 
This could have and should have, happened without an affair, but I can't change it now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> It improved the marriage and all of the above.
> 
> This site is about saving marriages.
> 
> There are sites like chumplady that advocate ALWAYS DESTROYING the marriage after infidelity, no matter what the cause.


I didn't ask for directions to sites designed to destroy my marriage. I know this site is about saving marriages, and that's why I'm so curious to learn if cheating is the way to do this, or if I should aim for better communication and more introspection instead.
I may reframe my question then. If you had 2 choices: 1. Improve communication and introspection or 2. Cheat on your spouse.
Do you maintain that you would pick option 2?


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> It improved the marriage and all of the above.
> 
> This site is about saving marriages.
> 
> There are sites like chumplady that advocate ALWAYS DESTROYING the marriage after infidelity, no matter what the cause.


Which thing improved the marriage, the affair, or the introspection and honesty?

I'm finding in my R, that the thing that's making our marriage better is the communication, the honesty, the introspection, the accountability... all those things are helping my marriage. Her sleeping with another man, that did not help my marriage... that actually caused more problems. If we could have gotten to the place of introspection, without the childish selfish cheating, it would have saved much pain and heartache. She can see that now.. it appears you're having a hard time with it. 

Your affair partner told you all that about her husband to make you feel good.. cheaters lie to each other, but then you probably don't want to admit that to yourself either.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Moose Mania said:


> I don't know how to quote from multiple posts or copy & paste from my phone, so this might be a little messy, but going to try to address the comments...
> I'm not saying my affair was "good" for either of us. I don't know what would have happened if I had just left. I did not make that choice. At the time, I did not believe I could leave safely. I essentially used my AP to help me vet where I didn't think I could get on my own.
> 
> His trust in me never existed. He was broken too, and I spent over 20 years listening to him tell me that no women can be trusted that I couldn't be trusted, trying to earn his trust, always to no avail. In the end, I became the person he thought I was.
> ...


You being aware of these things is a change .. people make mistakes, some learn from them. It sounds like you've learned a painful lesson.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Quite
> 
> People on here talk like it's complex rocket science
> 
> ...


No one is disagreeing with you about the justification for cheating. It's not justified and is the wrong decision to make 10 out of 10 times. That is not in dispute. The issue I see here is that there are reasons given for why some people choose to cheat and people simply aren't accepting the explanations. I think there were a number of very good reasons given that explain the thought process and what was going thru the cheater's minds. These reasons may not be valid ones in your eyes. But really it doesn't matter what you think because the cheater is not thinking or processing the information like you are. He/she is different from you.

I'm of the belief that too many people on TAM will only accept the following reasons for why someone cheats: "She was a rotten dirty wh0re" and "He was a philandering *******". That may make the betrayed feel better for a short while in order to lash out at their WS, but what does that line of thinking accomplish? On a place like TAM all it will do is push WS's away who want to make amends and seek help on TAM and it also doesn't allow people to think about what is really going on. If everyone had the same moral code, same level of convictions and the same level of character, then everything you say is 100% dead on. However, our world is not like that. There are people who are not as strong in character and are susceptible to stumbling if given the right circumstances. I'll not say that everyone is capable of it so as to not ruffle any feathers, but the reality is that there are a significantly larger number of flawed people out there than there are strong moral and strong character people. 

So even in situations where neither partner cheats, its not exclusively due to the fact that both spouses are strong, moral and just great people. The other factor to consider is that neither was subjected to the trials that could break their character. It's a lot easier to stay true in a marriage when you 1) make a good wage, 2) have a good spouse and 3) have well behaved kids who never get into trouble. Surely there are "weaker" people who have these positives to fall back on and are thus not tempted to cheat simply because life is great. 

People make too many assumptions and don't try to analyze enough of the facts in front of them. I think that's pretty common.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

russell28 said:


> It's very accurate, the thing that 'fixes' the marriage isn't the affair.. it's the honesty and accountability. The A can force those things, but it's not the cure.


Aren't you playing semantics?

As for it being a cure. It may not be the cure for some, but it was for me. 



> If I'm drunk driving, and I crash my car, and while they are examining me, they say that I have cancer but they found it early and remove it to save my life. Does that mean that drunk driving saved my life? Was it now justifiable that I was drinking and driving, because it caused a good outcome?


[/QUOTE]

Technically yes. Was it criminal to drive drunk. Yes. But technically, it did ultimately save his life. What's to quibble about?

An affair is not a criminal act. In all but a few states. Even in those, it is rarely prosecuted, and if it is there's a slap on the wrist. 

I think marriage is complicated and the law realizes that.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Aren't you playing semantics?
> 
> As for it being a cure. It may not be the cure for some, but it was for me.
> 
> ...


So the affair was the cure?

If your marriage has problems in the future, will you look to have an affair to help solve the issue? It can lead to a cure after all.

My story was simple.. I wasn't comparing adultery to a crime, I was just stating that drunk driving doesn't cure cancer any more than having an affair fixes problems in a marriage.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

> Your affair partner told you all that about her husband to make you feel good.. cheaters lie to each other, but then you probably don't want to admit that to yourself either.


Maybe, your are right. 

However, when the AP said those words that did NOT make me feel good. It's interesting that you assume they did. Would those words make you feel good?

I never spoke poorly of my wife. I also did not like the fact that the affair partner trashed her husband to me. 

She ultimately outed me because in her words, she wanted to divorce her husband and marry me. That was NOT her original claim. She claimed to only want an affair. 

She shared the same information about her husband with my wife. She also confided to my wife that she was planning to divorce him.

Was the AP telling the truth. I *don't *read minds so I don't know. I never assume someone is lying without proof. 

BTW: Everyone lies SOMETIMES, that does not mean that everything they say is a lie. 

But that is neither here nor there. What difference does it make. It makes none to me. Her gossiping about her own husband, turned me off. 




russell28 said:


> Which thing improved the marriage, the affair, or the introspection and honesty?
> 
> I'm finding in my R, that the thing that's making our marriage better is the communication, the honesty, the introspection, the accountability... all those things are helping my marriage. Her sleeping with another man, that did not help my marriage... that actually caused more problems. If we could have gotten to the place of introspection, without the childish selfish cheating, it would have saved much pain and heartache. She can see that now.. it appears you're having a hard time with it.
> 
> Your affair partner told you all that about her husband to make you feel good.. cheaters lie to each other, but then you probably don't want to admit that to yourself either.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Maybe, your are right.
> 
> However, when the AP said those words that did NOT make me feel good. It's interesting that you assume they did. Would those words make you feel good?
> 
> ...


You may not have trashed your wife with words, but you trashed her with your actions. 

You also can't tell me that you never mentioned to your girlfriend your wife's lack of sexual intimacy, do you think your wife would have felt good knowing you were telling her about her dysfunction? I agree.. sometimes people lie... often to themselves.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

russell28 said:


> My story was simple.. I wasn't comparing adultery to a crime, I was just stating that drunk driving doesn't cure cancer any more than having an affair fixes problems in a marriage.


Your DUI analogy is a fallacious and facetious. 



> So the affair was the cure?
> 
> If your marriage has problems in the future, will you look to have an affair to help solve the issue? It can lead to a cure after all.


I won't need to. We have both had counseling that has helped us communicate issues better as well as taught us to listen to and take each others' concerns seriously.

BTW: I am a neuropsychiatrist, not a talk therapist. There is a difference. Google it, if you are wondering,


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

russell28 said:


> You may not have trashed your wife with words, but you trashed her with your actions.


And my wife trashed me with her actions, too. She accepts that and you need to, too. 



> You also can't tell me that you never mentioned to your girlfriend your wife's lack of sexual intimacy, do you think your wife would have felt good knowing you were telling her about her dysfunction? I agree.. sometimes people lie... often to themselves.


I am so glad you mentioned this. It's a perfect example of attacking before getting all the facts. 

It was my wife who told her of the lack of intimacy between us, not ME. This has been mentioned ad nauseum in prior postings. I guess I should post it on my profile page. 

The OW after outing me, and while my wife was berating her, told my wife that she had recently befriended her ONLY to get to me. 

Prior to the affair, the OW talked with my wife about how she had no interest in sex with her husband because she thought he was fat, and hairy. She told her of hiding out on the computer in another room until he fell asleep. The OW told me the same. 

My wife in turn confided in the OW, who was not then the OW. 

Her reason for not having sex was she felt she had transcended it. 

The OW used this weakness, the lack of sex, to instigate an affair. 

What does it matter though?

It's always best to get facts before attacking. But some people prefer to not let those pesky facts get in the way. Right?


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Your DUI analogy is a fallacious and facetious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wasn't wondering..

So you're saying that listening, taking each others concerns seriously and communicating issues better will prevent you from 'needing' to have an affair.

You still don't get it. It should prevent you from needing to get a divorce, not from going behind your spouses back with another woman.

The affair shouldn't be an option on the table. Not because it's not criminal, but because it's just not the right thing to do. No matter how you spin it.. dance around it, twist it up or try to back it up with a PHD.... still never the right choice.


----------



## Moose Mania (Oct 28, 2013)

russell28 said:


> You being aware of these things is a change .. people make mistakes, some learn from them. It sounds like you've learned a painful lesson.


It was a very painful lesson and if affected many people besides just me and my X. It affected our children, our families, our friends.

I have changed and continue to change and evolve, hopefully always for the better. That's part of the reason I rejoined TAM. 

I still expect the negative comments and responses, but I have learned a ton here and hope to continue to learn and grow.

I am in a new relationship now and could have joined and pretended this part of my past didn't exist. It's an anonymous forum, who would ever know the difference? But part of my change and what I've learned wouldn't let me do that. 

In order to grow and learn and help, you have to be honest with yourself first, and then carry that forward in all aspects of your life. No matter how uncomfortable that might be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

russell28 said:


> The affair shouldn't be an option on the table. Not because it's not criminal, but because it's just not the right thing to do. No matter how you spin it.. dance around it, twist it up or try to back it up with a PHD.... still never the right choice.


Why? Because you decreed it so. Because YOU could not forgive your wife's affair. 

As I have said many times. If my wife had an physical affair, but ended it and still loved me, pfffft! Really who cares. It's just sex. 

Really, an affair would not end my marriage for me. I wouldn't even really be that threatened by it. 

What would end my marriage? A wife who did not love me, or who never loved, me as my affair partner claimed of her husband.

Now......that would be grounds for a divorce for me and that would threaten the marriage.

I would not want to be married to someone who did not love me, but used me as a meal ticket. 

In any case, this argument is becoming circular. So, we will have to agree to disagree. 

Have fun continuing the discussion. I have work to do.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> And my wife trashed me with her actions, too. She accepts that and you need to, too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You knew your wife wasn't having sex with you.

Your wife did NOT know you were having sex with another woman.

That's the difference. So while she was being cruel and abusive, you knew about it and had a chance to do something about it. With an affair, the spouse has no idea about the abuse, therefore has no control over the situation. It's not an honorable choice and will never be.

Stop blaming the wife, stop blaming the OW for your choices.. you have control over you, unless you're a puppet. If you are, stop letting others pull your strings. Own your actions, and don't let others manipulate you. Understand when they do, and take blame for allowing them to. It's on you, not on them. You can control you. 

Your wife did not make you cheat. Your OW did not make you cheat. You made you cheat. Repeat these things to yourself.


----------



## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Moose Mania said:


> It was a very painful lesson and if affected many people besides just me and my X. It affected our children, our families, our friends.
> 
> I have changed and continue to change and evolve, hopefully always for the better. That's part of the reason I rejoined TAM.
> 
> ...


MM,

Good for you. We are all human. We all make mistakes. We all learn from them.

I don't think you having an exit affair was the best way out. I believe it was the easiest. I think you were afraid to do what you needed to do, stand up to your husband, communicate and give him an ultimatum.

At the time you probably were not strong enough. I am sorry, you are paying for that now. It affects how your children perceive you. It also gave your EX reason to not do his own introspection, but maybe he did that on his own.

Most WW's advice here is valuable. Those that actually understand what the word remorseful really means.

Don't be chained by the past. Forgive yourself and be the person you were truly meant to be. God bless! Stop with the What Ifs and go for the What Nows.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Why? Because you decreed it so. Because YOU could not forgive your wife's affair.
> 
> As I have said many times. If my wife had an physical affair, but ended it and still loved me, pfffft! Really who cares. It's just sex.
> 
> ...


If you're wife had an affair, then you'd know what you'd do in that situation and how you'd feel.... otherwise, you have no idea. Really. 

So keep blowing smoke... I'm not amazed. The discussion is circular, because you like to spin things.. that's what happens when you twist things around, it makes you dizzy.

I would love to say I also have work, but I have a slow day here.. have fun with your neuropsychiatry.


----------



## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> And my wife trashed me with her actions, too. She accepts that and you need to, too.


I don't think it works that way. I am going to go out on a limb and say that you come off as a wee bit controlling.


----------



## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Moose Mania said:


> It was a very painful lesson and if affected many people besides just me and my X. It affected our children, our families, our friends.
> 
> I have changed and continue to change and evolve, hopefully always for the better. That's part of the reason I rejoined TAM.
> 
> ...


Your learning sounds sincere and honest.

Not to thread jack, but could you share your thoughts on your divorce's role in your change? Did the D help you re-commit to being honest?

My exWW recently has been doing good things. I often wonder if she would have continued to blameshift and play the victim role if I had not have divorced her. I feel my D was a big factor in her finally seeing the harm that she caused by the betrayal.

I also believe that the D was the best way for me to heal. Having a new wife was another a godsend for my happiness.


----------



## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> As I have said many times. If my wife had an physical affair, but ended it and still loved me, pfffft! Really who cares. It's just sex.
> 
> Really, an affair would not end my marriage for me. I wouldn't even really be that threatened by it.


I don't believe that at all. We might be different. I don't pee sitting down. If you think it's ok for your wife to go have sex with other men, just tell her.

Say something like, 'Hey Baby, my fine thing... You know, it's just sex so you go on. Go find yourself some men and go get it on! It's just sex you know.'

Or you can say it with your lexicon.

RS - 'Attention... attention. Designated spousal unit, as we are cerebral partners with one another and as we have not copulated with any frequency in the past decade, I believe that a vicissitude in our matrimonial arrangement should be made. I believe that you should fornicate with adequate members of the male sex to receive the physical pleasure that I am not providing to you at this time. I will give you a list detailing the acceptable lengths and girths of the members that you may choose from in order to receive a thrice weekly allotment of sexual stimulation. I will email that to you in triplicate and you can thereby choose from a variety of members to then conjugate or conjoin. Extra curricular amenities will of course be forbidden as well as cosseting and dadling for more than a period of 6.2 minutes after the aforementioned physical activity is performed.'


If you are going to say that your wife having sex with another man doesn't threaten you, then I think you need to take some testosterone supplements. I just don't believe that. If you aren't threatened, believe me I don't think it is because you are intellectually superior to another guy. I think you are jut kidding yourself.


----------



## Moose Mania (Oct 28, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> Your learning sounds sincere and honest.
> 
> Not to thread jack, but could you share your thoughts on your divorce's role in your change? Did the D help you re-commit to being honest?
> 
> ...


That's an interesting question. 

I don't think it was the D so much, but rather the realization of how my kids were affected by my actions.

They were old enough to know exactly what was going on. They knew more about the state of the marriage in general than I had ever given them credit for. Rebuilding with them is what REALLY drove me to recommit to honesty. 

Throughout the D process, I was able to rebuild some trust with everyone, including my xH, and that lead to a lot of healing. 

Our family home was my X's childhood home. He has never lived anywhere else. When his father died we bought out my SIL. I had always told my H that if anything g ever happened between us, I would not try to screw him over, I would not try to take the house, etc.

Well, the A definitely screwed him over. But I did regain some dignity and made sure I was more than fair in the D. He did not hire an attorney. I hired one and he worked with us for a fair and amicable split. 

I left the house with some basics, left everything they would need, as the kids were staying with him. I am paying off the house through spousal support and picked up some of the bills until he got on his feet.

H has hooked up with an old, mutual friend and I think she has been a godsend to him as well.

The D itself didn't bring me around, but the process and my desire to regain some dignity and repair some of the damage is what really woke me up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

MovingAhead said:


> Say something like, 'Hey Baby, my fine thing... You know, it's just sex so you go on. Go find yourself some men and go get it on! It's just sex you know.'


I already told her that. Not using those words though, obviously. I don't refer to my wife as "babe" My wife finds the use of the word babe to be condescending and says it reminds her of the talking pig in the movie of the same title. 

But anyway, see what I mean about not bothering to gather the facts before attacking or disagreeing with my factual statements. Again, to reiterate the answer to the posters question, each individual case of infidelity is different. You can't assume anything. 



> If you are going to say that your wife having sex with another man doesn't threaten you, then I think you need to take some testosterone supplements.


Actually, regarding testosterone it's the other way around. Do some research. Being easily threatened is a symptom of Low T, as is a low sex drive. 



> If you are going to say that your wife having sex with another man doesn't threaten you, then I think you need to take some testosterone supplements. I just don't believe that. If you aren't threatened, believe me I don't think it is because you are intellectually superior to another guy. I think you are jut kidding yourself


Really, do you think, I am kidding myself? On what basis? Projection, maybe?

With that said I found your post entertaining and amusing as well as revealing.

The bottom line is that if a person is angry at their own wayward spouse. Dumping on other spouses may make a person feel temporarily good, but it won't solve any of the issues in the marriage that led a spouse to cheat.

The best thing to do is to own up to your own shortcomings in the marriage.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

russell28 said:


> It's very accurate, the thing that 'fixes' the marriage isn't the affair.. it's the honesty and accountability. The A can force those things, but it's not the cure.
> 
> If I'm drunk driving, and I crash my car, and while they are examining me, they say that I have cancer but they found it early and remove it to save my life. Does that mean that drunk driving saved my life? Was it now justifiable that I was drinking and driving, because it caused a good outcome?


Crisis brings clarity
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

I admit that you had me fooled by your handle "Remorseful strayer" - why did you choose that one? You tell us to investigate the facts before stating anything, so I would like to ask you, if you believe that you show remorse to your wife, and if you do, what does it look like to your wife?


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

cpacan said:


> I didn't ask for directions to sites designed to destroy my marriage. I know this site is about saving marriages, and that's why I'm so curious to learn if cheating is the way to do this, or if I should aim for better communication and more introspection instead.
> I may reframe my question then. If you had 2 choices: 1. Improve communication and introspection or 2. Cheat on your spouse.
> Do you maintain that you would pick option 2?


If one spouse refuses to admit there is any problem and refuses to fix things, it takes a crisis to get their head out of their ass.

So it takes an accident, a near death experience, divorce papers or...yes Infidelity for head/ass removal.

We take cheaters to task for making such a poor decision. Where is the condemnation of a spouse who makes a marriage that bad by THEIR choices?

If I marry an alcoholic and I cheat, it's a bad choice. If the other spouse does nothing to fix the alcoholism, we haven't 'fixed' anything except give the other spouse moral authority to ignore the problem. Too often we give comfort to the 'alcoholic'. This fixes nothing.

I think a better approach is 'here is sympathy for the cheating....AND here are some issues you ALSO need to fix'.

We aren't counselors but drinking? Shouting? Abuse? These are no brainers
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Moose Mania,

Thank you for being a role model as a good ex.

Sounds like you are the exception to the rule. My exWW is approaching your level of decency. Her remorse was for only for her own loss, imo, until the last few weeks. She is engaged and I wonder if the new marriage idea is causing her to re-evaluate her past behavior.

It feels good knowing that a D is often a blessing for both parties. I would think that my old goal to save a marriage after betrayal is faulty. It felt different when I was attempting R, but in hind-sight the D was a positive for us.

Thanks for your perspective. 

I admire the efforts people put into their R. I also think that D is often a better choice for many (me included).

*Why do cheaters cheat?* 

More important to me is *why did my ex cheat*? Ultimately it is a driving force to make me live better. Better people in my circle. Better habits. Better relationships. Better understanding of broken people.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

MovingAhead said:


> I don't believe that at all. We might be different. I don't pee sitting down. If you think it's ok for your wife to go have sex with other men, just tell her.
> 
> Say something like, 'Hey Baby, my fine thing... You know, it's just sex so you go on. Go find yourself some men and go get it on! It's just sex you know.'
> 
> ...


I'm not going to get in the middle of your argument with RS, but this does bring up an interesting question: If a married person has zero interest in having sex with his/her spouse aside from periodically providing mercy sex on an infrequent basis, why would the person with no interest in sex ever get upset if his/her spouse found sexual release from another person?

For the record, I firmly believe in 1) working it out and 2) divorce if it cannot be fixed. That's how I think I would react in this situation. As stated before, cheating is not an excuse ever.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

JCD said:


> If one spouse refuses to admit there is any problem and refuses to fix things, it takes a crisis to get their head out of their ass.
> 
> So it takes an accident, a near death experience, divorce papers or...yes Infidelity for head/ass removal.
> 
> ...


I think many times these things are typical relationship issues, not the bigger ones like alcoholism or physical abuse, but things like stress, feelings of growing old, being bored, feeling you never had independence, bills, children etc... even in the extreme cases, both spouses need to work on the things that let them grow apart and the things that allowed for all the resentments to build. Abuse is a good reason to file for divorce, it's not a good reason to abuse back.. At some point the person that cheats, needs to accept that it wasn't the right path to fixing a relationship and if they don't want the relationship with the spouse, then it's not right to use people. They also need to realize that they are in control of decisions they make, and unless they include the betrayed spouse in decisions like 'should I go to that motel', then that decision is not on the spouse.

It's sad that for some it takes that drastic wake-up call, and many times it's way too late, the damage is too great. I'm willing to bet that for every marriage an affair 'saves', dozens of marriages die.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Since we are discussing uncomfortable truths, lets look at the Betrayed who marry 'a cheater'...and marry 'another cheater'...and then marry 'another cheater.

So what? Your picker broke? Or perhaps we can look at the one common factor in all three marriages. But these types generally lack any introspection and are constantly amazed at how many 'bad spouses' there are out there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

> If a married person has zero interest in having sex with his/her spouse aside from periodically providing mercy sex on an infrequent basis, why would the person with no interest in sex ever get upset if his/her spouse found sexual release from another person?


It's interesting that you brought up this question. 

My wife came to this conclusion on here own and actually, to my surprise, brought this up without prompting from me or her IC or the MC.

When I was repeatedly asking her to see a counselor about her no-sex (not even mercy sex) policy, she often told me a marriage is about more than just sex. She said this repeatedly and often. 

When she contacted me seeking reconciliation after the divorce, she mentioned those words she used, and then she said that if she left me due to an affair..one in which I did not love the affair partner, then she would be making the marriage only about sex. 

My wife is an intelligent, kind, forgiving lady. 




Plan 9 from OS said:


> I'm not going to get in the middle of your argument with RS, but this does bring up an interesting question: If a married person has zero interest in having sex with his/her spouse aside from periodically providing mercy sex on an infrequent basis, why would the person with no interest in sex ever get upset if his/her spouse found sexual release from another person?
> 
> For the record, I firmly believe in 1) working it out and 2) divorce if it cannot be fixed. That's how I think I would react in this situation. As stated before, cheating is not an excuse ever.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

russell28 said:


> It's sad that for some it takes that drastic wake-up call, and many times it's way too late, the damage is too great. I'm willing to bet that for every marriage an affair 'saves', dozens of marriages die.


Well, I see we have found some common ground. 

I agree with that statement. 

Yes, an affair saved my marriage and actually made it better for both of us in many respects. But both my wife and I were motivated to make the changes needed to heal and survive.

Still, I would not recommend it. It could backfire. 

But again, to go back to the posters question and the answer to why is each situation is highly individualized. 

I think a successful reconciliation depends greatly on the reasons why the wayward cheated.


----------



## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

your post made me sad , EI.



EI said:


> Once again, there are no justifications for cheating, because nothing makes it good or legitimate. But, there are always reasons. Sometimes, there are reasons that are more understandable than others.


are these 'understandable reasons' removes the free will (free choice)? I mean that's the whole point of searching for understandable reasons , right? to remove the responsibility , to remove the guilt. look you can come up with anything (emotional/physical neglect, financial problems , having no job , demanding kids , abusive relationship , ...) you want. none of those reason would remove the responsibility of YOUR choices, YOUR response to those problems in situation. I have seen people in the most ****ty situation and they stay true to their moral code , to their words. they are not angels or saints or perfect beings. they are human just like the rest of us. with the same blood and soul.



EI said:


> Even in the rare cases when a WS has been able to successfully convince the TAMers that they were, in fact, in terribly unhappy and/or dysfunctional marriages, and that they did, repeatedly, communicate, pre-A, their unhappiness to their spouses, they did work on their own issues, they did attend IC, they did request MC, but those pleas were disregarded and ignored, they are then told that they should have, could have, and that there is no excuse for not having first gotten a divorce. It can be repeated over and over and over again, that divorce is always the honorable option, but realistically speaking, there are some marriages, that for any number of reasons, when a divorce is simply not a viable option. Children, financial issues, health problems, property, insurance, jobs, familial obligations, etc. are all factors which each individual must consider. There are those who are fortunate enough to have adequate means and/or family support, higher education, good health, or other resources who may simply be incapable of comprehending those types of issues that are very real challenges for others.


you're missing something in this nice paragraph of yours. you believe cheating in a marriage means : having your needs met by someone other than the spouse.
well that's wrong. cheating in a marriage means : having your needs met by someone other than the spouse *without the awareness/agreement of your spouse*.
because if it was with the awareness/agreement of spouse, it wouldn't be called cheating, they would call it an open marriage.
the BS's might (in some cases) be aware of problems in their marriage but they are *not aware* of cheating before it actually takes place. that's why we have a Dday (discovery day) , right? my point is if you(BS) are not aware of it then how could you(BS) be responsible for it? and let's be honest here ... we are talking about mature , adult people who know the consequences of their choices. let me ask you : EI , tell me when you were having an affair , how would you see the outcome of your affair? what did you think that your family would think of you as a mother , when they know about your affair? you didn't think about your family , right? now tell me that YOU weren't selfish. just tell me that , if you can.



EI said:


> For certain BS's who refuse to *acknowledge any contributing factors for infidelity* other than the WS's selfishness, sense of entitlement, general lack of character, or the WS simply being a "bad person,"


infidelity is the immature , selfish response of WS to the problems in their marriage. if a marriage is bad , passionless , ... is for *both* of spouses. so why didn't BS(s) cheat? oh I know what you're gonna say. that they didn't have the opportunity. well you'll be amazed to know that most of BS(s) did and still do have the opportunity. 



EI said:


> I do not question why "some" have found themselves to be the victim of infidelity on more than one occasion. Infidelity is NEVER good or legitimate. But, I am not incapable of comprehending that sometimes the reasons are more understandable than others. And, sometimes, those reasons begin with the BS's refusal to work on THEIR side of the road in the marriage and end with the WS's decision to go outside of the marriage as their only means (other than divorce) of getting their needs met. Not all needs are selfish. We are all human beings. We all have needs and we all have a breaking point. That said, I wish to Hell that I'd never reached mine. Likewise, I wish that my BS had responded to my pleas and had chosen to deal with his own issues before I reached that point. I may have willingly chosen to jump off of the cliff into infidelity. But, my husband's, years long, emotional and physical abandonment of me had theoretically put me on that cliff and he was driving towards me going 100 mph. I jumped. Now, he, our children, and I are all paying the price for *BOTH* of our failures.
> 
> On a brighter note, because we are BOTH owning our share of the blame for the colossal mess of a marriage that WE created, and we are BOTH working on our own personal issues, as well as working towards making amends towards one another, we are, now, 17 months into reconciliation.


you said that you begged your husband for affection , .... to meet your needs. and when he didn't, you try to motivate him by threatening to go outside of your marriage and when that didn't work , you actually went through with it. now let's see what happened. at the time of your MOTIVATION attempt. your husband had low-T , right? he was depressed , his manhood was in question inside his own head. if he would accept your threat , again his manhood was in question , if he followed your threat then he would be even a lesser man!, so he actually refused it because it was somehow fulfilling (for the short term). I know it seems childish. but think about it. you can confirm this with b1. I'm not saying what he did was OK, fair or right. my point is that the so called motivational attempt wouldn't possibly work in any way. and just so you could understand the damage YOUR cheating caused to the psych of the man YOU vowed to cherish and love in sickness and health, ask him to listen to the song of "A Woman's heart" by "Chris De Burgh". just watch the look on his face. and maybe then you get my point.

EI, you're justifying again. the failures in your marriage are both on you and B1. BUT your cheating was your failure. just read the analogy you put here. in that analogy , you are the victim , you didn't have a choice and your husband is a crazy wheel man behind a car. is that how view your situation? you are not a victim. not because you are the wayward here... .no .... .but because at the time of making that choice, you were a responsible , mature adult who btw had grown children and was a grandmother for god's sake. you did make that choice knowing the consequences of that choice. that doesn't make you a victim , in any shape or form... no matter how hard you try.... no matter what kinda of analogy you use.

in almost the 90% of the posts that you wrote about your cheating , you always followed it up with the description of ****ty state of your marriage. now I won't the deny the condition of your marriage. my point is you don't own your cheating. at least not fully. why don't you do a simple exercise? close your eyes , take several deep breaths and think about your choice to have an affair. what is the first thing your mind would run to? is it not the ****ty situation of your marriage? is it not the constant neglect by B1? see .... you are still trying to remove some of weight of YOUR choice to something/someone out of yourself. as long as you keep doing that , EI , you will not be able to own YOUR choice FULLY. you would not be able to accept YOUR choice FULLY. you would not be able to move on from this pain, you would be stuck in here. this resistance in your 'reconciliation with yourself" is not from B1 or your family. it's from YOU. just trust me this one time and try to say the words : "I cheated in my marriage" without your mind going to any kinda 'understandable reasons'. accept it. it helps you.

EI, I hope this post would be here long enough , so you could read it.
whatever you choose , I pray that you and B1 find the peace you're looking for.


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

JCD said:


> Since we are discussing uncomfortable truths, lets look at the Betrayed who marry 'a cheater'...and marry 'another cheater'...and then marry 'another cheater.
> 
> So what? Your picker broke? Or perhaps we can look at the one common factor in all three marriages. But these types generally lack any introspection and are constantly amazed at how many 'bad spouses' there are out there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For the record, I only had one LTR, so it's not my personal experience I'm adressing. It could be a broken picker, or it could be a person who has written "cheat on me" on the forehead, or it could just be the odds - AFAIR I have around 40% chance of picking a partner who will cheat on me. If I play heads and tails, could I get tails 3 times in a row - I believe I could.


----------



## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Well, I will say that you are a male and that it is most likely due to the fact you are male that things worked out. I saw on a thread here that although approximately 50% of marriages recover - of those 90% are when the male cheats and only 10% when the female cheats - consider yourself lucky...just saying I am not sure I could forgive.


----------



## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

RS and JCD,

Both of you have stated that a lack of sex was part of your reason for cheating. 

Why did you chose to R with a woman who left you feeling cold?

I get the kids, family, money, etc. Not sure if those are valid in most cases, but I understand the rationale.

If you would venture to the point of hurting your spouse deeply, why would you not move to the next step of finding a different wife with a better sex drive?


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

JCD said:


> Since we are discussing uncomfortable truths, lets look at the Betrayed who marry 'a cheater'...and marry 'another cheater'...and then marry 'another cheater.
> 
> So what? Your picker broke? Or perhaps we can look at the one common factor in all three marriages. But these types generally lack any introspection and are constantly amazed at how many 'bad spouses' there are out there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


... or, they marry 'ladies' they find at bars, who are flirts and have a history. They are attracted to tramps. It's not always the betrayed spouse that pushes the cheater to cheat. That's a myth.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

bigtone128 said:


> Well, I will say that you are a male and that it is most likely due to the fact you are male that things worked out. I saw on a thread here that although approximately 50% of marriages recover - of those 90% are when the male cheats and only 10% when the female cheats - consider yourself lucky...just saying I am not sure I could forgive.


I agree. You are right, my marriage survived because of many variables, including the variable of me being the wayward. 

As for you not being able to forgive infidelity. If that's your deal breaker, that's okay. 

What I don't understand is the bitterness that remains, when reconciling or even if divorcing among some posters here, even years later. 

If reconciling, both have to be ALL in. If not or if the people can not, let each other go and move on. 

If the people divorce, then move on. 

What is the point of making the BS a new identity and hanging onto a victim mentality, even years down the road?

If a person has gotten PTSD from the infidelity experience, well then get help and move on. If not, all that anger and hostility will be carried into the next relationship and then that anger will cause problems in that new relationship.

There is a saying, and it goes:



> “Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of harming another; *you* end up getting burned.”


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I think there are a number of people on here who are either intentionally or unintentionally misunderstand what people are trying to state in this thread.

There is a difference between "justification" vs "rational". It's OK to state legitimate reasons why a spouse chose to cheat without them automatically becoming justifications for the cheating. 

For people asking "why R"? Obviously it's because both the betrayed and the betrayer still have love for each other and want to overcome the problems. People are trying to apply pure logic and reason in situations that involve love. The phrase "love is blind" is no accident that came about because someone was drinking. It's an obvious way to explain how logic and reason can be thrown out the window for the sake of love. 

Logically, a man doesn't want to be married to the "eager wh0re" or the "frigid ice queen". A person using reason and logic from the outside would tell you to cut your losses and try again. If both H and W are in love still, it's likely that they will painfully work to R in the hopes that they can salvage their marriage and perhaps make it better. Even the most jaded of us still want to believe in hope.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

user_zero said:


> my point is if you are not aware of it then how could you be responsible for it?


A person that is cheating is not only aware of it, they are trying intentionally to hide it from the spouse.. they might talk MC briefly, so someday they can say 'but there was that day I mentioned MC', but they never mention OM....


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Lovemytruck said:


> RS and JCD,
> 
> Both of you have stated that a lack of sex was part of your reason for cheating.
> 
> ...


I have answered that question many times. In fact people in other posts here have addressed it and in a very eloquent fashion. 

The question is perhaps too simplistic. No one simple answer may apply.

Also, my wife and I now have an excellent sex life. 

But just to clarify. Money was never a reason, Kids were never a reason, what my family or her family thought was never a reason because counselors wisely told us not to tell them, and we did not, lack of opportunity regarding finding a new partner was not an issue for me, and lack of opportunity regarding new partner was not an issue for her. 

So that leaves love and admiration, compatibility in all other areas other than in the past her sex drive.

My wife also hurt me deeply by avoiding sex, but neither did she want a divorce. 

Lastly, in spite of the lack of sex, my wife is and was an extremely affectionate, loving, huggy person.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

russell28 said:


> ... or, they marry 'ladies' they find at bars, who are flirts and have a history. They are attracted to tramps. It's not always the betrayed spouse that pushes the cheater to cheat. That's a myth.


If you've read this thread, you would have seen that this was acknowledged by several people. I wrote that there are different cheating scenarios and recognize that there are situations where a BS married a broken person who would cheat no matter how a BS would have handled the marriage. And other cases come about due to circumstances from life and marriage.


----------



## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

russell28 said:


> A person that is cheating is not only aware of it, they are trying intentionally to hide it from the spouse.. they might talk MC briefly, so someday they can say 'but there was that day I mentioned MC', but they never mention OM....


russel I was talking about the BS , not WS.


----------



## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

russell28 said:


> ... or, they marry 'ladies' they find at bars, who are flirts and have a history. They are attracted to tramps. It's not always the betrayed spouse that pushes the cheater to cheat. That's a myth.


I have often wondered about this, and the high D rate for 2nd and 3rd marriages. Maybe the pool of singles in the middle years are comprised of people prone to cheat, or prone to being too naive. Are there more habitual cheaters in the pool? Do the cheaters become better at rationalizing it, and lack self-control in subsequent relationships? Who knows?

Do we in the BS camp have a neon sign that lures them in? Is our picker broken? Maybe the BS camp actually figures out how to detect cheaters better?

Utimately it is a risk vs. reward question. Marriage is a risk. Stability, sex, companionship, trust, happiness, etc. is a reward.

I will take my chances. 

Maybe marriage should not be "till death do us part." We don't expect cars to last past 20 years, why should our vows?


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> I have often wondered about this, and the high D rate for 2nd and 3rd marriages. Maybe the pool of singles in the middle years are comprised of people prone to cheat, or prone to being too naive. Are there more habitual cheaters in the pool? Do the cheaters become better at rationalizing it, and lack self-control in subsequent relationships? Who knows?
> 
> Do we in the BS camp have a neon sign that lures them in? Is our picker broken? Maybe the BS camp actually figures out how to detect cheaters better?
> 
> ...


Or... anyone that gets married a 3rd time is a sucker for punishment, and they like to be abused. 

They should have an alternative to marriage, like a lease.. 5 years you can trade up to a new model. I'll trade in my American model for a Japanese..


----------



## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Or... anyone that gets married a 3rd time is a sucker for punishment, and they like to be abused.
> 
> They should have an alternative to marriage, like a lease.. 5 years you can trade up to a new model. I'll trade in my American model for a Japanese..


:iagree: :lol::rofl:


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

user_zero said:


> russel I was talking about the BS , not WS.


I thought you meant the BS is not aware of the WS cheating, so they can't be responsible since they had no idea it was even an option... sorry for the confusion.


----------



## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

russell28 said:


> I thought you meant the BS is not aware of the WS cheating, so they can't be responsible since they had no idea it was even an option... sorry for the confusion.


hehehehe .... OMG .... that was exactly what I meant........ I'm sorry for the confusion.


----------



## Moose Mania (Oct 28, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I think there are a number of people on here who are either intentionally or unintentionally misunderstand what people are trying to state in this thread.
> 
> There is a difference between "justification" vs "rational". It's OK to state legitimate reasons why a spouse chose to cheat without them automatically becoming justifications for the cheating.
> 
> ...


This is about the best "explanation" I have seen on this thread and it isn't really an explanation at all. It is extremely hard to explain without sounding like justifying.

Every situation is different and it's very hard to explain without coming across the wrong way. 

I truly believe that we should ALL maintain HOPE and MY hope is that people like me learn from their mistakes, people like my xH learn from the fallout, people that wish to R, succeed and above all, people that are on the edge, do the right thing! Fix the problem, or leave the problem, but don't make the problem worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

russell28 said:


> Or... anyone that gets married a 3rd time is a sucker for punishment, and they like to be abused.
> 
> They should have an alternative to marriage, like a lease.. 5 years you can trade up to a new model. I'll trade in my American model for a Japanese..


I see yellow fever continues to cause delusions
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Moose Mania (Oct 28, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Or... anyone that gets married a 3rd time is a sucker for punishment, and they like to be abused.
> 
> They should have an alternative to marriage, like a lease.. 5 years you can trade up to a new model. I'll trade in my American model for a Japanese..


My H is on his 3rd marriage. He knows my full history. My hope is that this is it for both of us. That's a big part of why honesty and open, honest communication is so important.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Lovemytruck said:


> RS and JCD,
> 
> Both of you have stated that a lack of sex was part of your reason for cheating.
> 
> ...


Never gave my reasons. I discussed the matter generically. All of these are issues which, if not causing infidelity, have caused their partners enormous pain. If a partners actions would lead an outsider saying to the victim 'you should get a divorce' then it probably will...or infidelity.

And if that happens, sorry but you are a bad spouse. Own it and improve...or not. The divorce is irrelevant. Otherwise you will have a line of failed marriages, whether infidelity is involved or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> Why? Because you decreed it so. Because YOU could not forgive your wife's affair.
> 
> *As I have said many times. If my wife had an physical affair, but ended it and still loved me, pfffft! Really who cares. It's just sex.*
> 
> ...


I think this says something about you and your thinking "who cares it's just sex" 

I think that is very odd. Very . You detach from sex being important ( - "who cares" - Well you don't, or you say you don't ) and yet you have a history of complaint, of hurt, of victimisation about your wife never wanting to have sex with you !? There's a hypocrisy there

Sex is important - it is the physical expression and passion of ones love for another. For you it's not a deal breaker but it happens to be a deal breaker, when you are not getting it from your wife, to cheat on her !?!? 

And on that basis that's the justification for your cheating. As long as your wife says she loves you you'll stay!? 

I also find it odd that for years and years she would not touch you with a barge pole obviously illustrating no physical attraction toward you but now, because you went elsewhere - that's all been repaired! All is well...so suddenly after years of nil sexual action - she can't keep her hands off you :scratchhead:

And you manage to put that down to you cheating so it's a positive !!

Jesus wept I thought I'd heard it all. 

_____________

Interesting thread. I don't regard myself as intelligent when I see some of the minds on here - some very very bright people and I read many many complex words and theories from waywards in some way trying to justify themselves over and over but you know what - in dealing with cheating, deceiving, trickle truthing, gaslighting rugsweeping, personality disorders through infidelity in two relationships going back 20+ years I've come to trust my instincts and my gut and nothing absolutely nothing, will ever persuade me that cheating did any marriage any good in any way whatsoever.

I'm glad to be in this thread with a good few of you waywards because this is allowing me to see yet another level of self deception / self delusion. I think you're amongst the cleverer ones. I think you've worked out how to get back in and taken that opportunity to do it but I still think you're playing the game, very subtle you're still trying to justify it and here's the new development on TAM in this very thread now 

"cheating did my marriage the world of good" fksakes!

this time next year it'll be "unless you cheat in your marriage you haven't lived yet" 

I don't think I'm going mad ....yet 

........but when I see some posts I do wonder for a second


----------



## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I'm not going to get in the middle of your argument with RS, but this does bring up an interesting question: If a married person has zero interest in having sex with his/her spouse aside from periodically providing mercy sex on an infrequent basis, why would the person with no interest in sex ever get upset if his/her spouse found sexual release from another person?
> 
> For the record, I firmly believe in 1) working it out and 2) divorce if it cannot be fixed. That's how I think I would react in this situation. As stated before, cheating is not an excuse ever.


My assumption, having never been in that situation is that the spouse who doesn't dole out the sex feels 'betrayed'. I guess that is why they are called Betrayed Spouses.

You are not talking out an open marriage. The prude didn't say go have sex. I don't care. Just make sure you come home to play our nightly game of Cribbage. I love our Cribbage game.

The Betrayal was in the loss of trust. It may just be a Cribbage game, but it is important. It's home.

RS keeps decrying to the world that the reason his marriage was fixed was because he had an affair to save it... I believe that that argument for causality is absurd. Yes a crisis, may have been what is needed to shake up the marriage but an affair, I think as much logic as RS would like to use, it doesn't add up.

If a woman is going without sex for 10 years, that is a long time... What was she doing to entertain herself during that time?

RS, I think you could have left her and you would probably be where you are right now. You didn't though. You chose to have an affair. You aren't evil. You also aren't remorseful. You reverse engineered the state of your marriage today back to your affair and said 'see, the affair saved our marriage...' I believe it very likely could have been saved other ways too.

I am honestly glad your marriage is better now. I am all for R. I just don't buy that your A saved your marriage. Like JCD said, it was a crisis that caused the change. You leap in logic in my belief is to assuage your conscience for making a bad decision. You got what you wanted by behaving badly and want us to believe that it was all for the greater good. Not buying it...

Again though, I am glad your marriage is better, but seriously it is hard to have a discussion with you as you are very condescending and you have a need to feel intellectually superior. Discussions are not always who is right. Sometimes people can agree to disagree.

BTW, please learn what hyperbole is. Sometimes talking to you is like talking to my kids... Dad, technically the answer is blah blah blah.... People are not textbooks. I speak connotatively and you answer me denotatively... 

i.e. the whole discussion about testosterone...
i.e. the thread about the spread of HIV...

You latch onto the technical details of a conversation laced in hyperbole, you take denotation out of context and perform your reductio ad absurdum argument and lace it with pietistic dribble.

You break down an argument into finite pieces, pull the pieces apart, reduce them to their implausible ends and decry that someone's argument is invalid. Yes I am being redundant.

You always want to argue instead of listening to a valid point someone makes. That is immature and lacks wisdom. An intellectual without wisdom is a pseudo-intellectual. A person may be able to calculate exactly how long it takes for light to reach the earth from the sun using moderate mathematics, but doesn't know to put sun tan lotion on at the beach... Intelligent, but not wise. It is ok to accept wisdom from people who didn't go to Oxford or Harvard. My buddy who only has a high school education is one of the wisest people I know.


----------



## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Moose Mania said:


> This is about the best "explanation" I have seen on this thread and it isn't really an explanation at all. It is extremely hard to explain without sounding like justifying.
> 
> Every situation is different and it's very hard to explain without coming across the wrong way.
> 
> ...


Well, I think you are doing awesome! God bless you sister. You sound like you figured it out. I hope you just keep working on yourself and your family and blessings keep coming your way.

Just out of curiosity, when your husband was behaving badly, did you try to talk to him, counsel or such? I mean really try, not just half heartedly?


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

MovingAhead said:


> My assumption, having never been in that situation is that the spouse who doesn't dole out the sex feels 'betrayed'. I guess that is why they are called Betrayed Spouses.............marriage was fixed was because he had an affair to save it... I believe that that argument for causality is absurd. Yes a crisis, may have been what is needed to shake up the marriage but an affair, I think as much logic as RS would like to use, it doesn't add up.
> 
> If a woman is going without sex for 10 years, that is a long time... What was she doing to entertain herself during that time?
> 
> ...


Yep it comes across to me like that 

As I mentioned I'm not the brightest and I could not say all that with your eloquence but for me I'll say, in my way 

You can be as intellectual as it's possible to be 

....but if you're 'blind' that amounts to very little


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I think there are a number of people on here who are either intentionally or unintentionally misunderstand what people are trying to state in this thread.
> 
> *There is a difference between "justification" vs "rational". It's OK to state legitimate reasons why a spouse chose to cheat without them automatically becoming justifications for the cheating.*
> 
> ...


I went back and liked this post, not because I agree with all of it, but because you point out a few key issues that had me thinking.

Why is it that ”rational” and ”reason” come across as ”justification”? And how could these be communicated without triggering betrayed spouses? I’m interested in this, because I realize that I myself am triggered heavily(!) when I read some of RS’ posts which severely come across as justifications. It may be because I’m a rational and, at times, a very thinking person myself, so I don’t get why some people can’t see the simple logic of this. So please bear with me, I know we are all different in our way of seeing things.

This is where I see the error in logic:
Bad behavior from BS causes cheating (BB => C). Which means that whenever this bad behavior occurs, cheating must be the result. The logic of you fWS suggest then, that if you just remove the bad behaiour, no cheating would occur.

What I suggest instead, and others with me if I read them correct, is:
Bad behavior from BS could, among other factors, cause a thought and decision process in WS, which results in cheating (BB or X or Y or Z) => DP => C. Which means that if you remove the bad behavior, you may still have a decision process which results in cheating.

The reason I say ”could among other factors” is that a lot of other factors have the potential to initiate this decision process. It could be a friend involved in an affair, a movie, a book, celebrities having glamorous affairs etc.

This decision process is complex because it involves a lot of direct or indirect factors; ie. Upbringing, personal values, societal values, biology, environmental factors etc. I can’t name them all.

The key in all this is this: You can’t skip the decision proces!!

If you would agree with me so far in this logic, it suggests that it would be wise to take a hard look at the decision proces /decision engine within the WS – where and why did it go wrong? If you fix this, you’re not relying on some behavioral change within the BS.

Now, before you lynch me because I say this; I don’t suggest or believe that each and every BS is a saint, and I certainly don’t say that betrayed spouses shouldn’t take a hard look at themselves and change for the better – everyone can and should do this on a regular basis, especially after infidelity.
Another disclaimer; I don’t think that all cheaters are notorious bad people, but I believe that infidelity is bad for a relationship and not some glorious rescue plan, I just believe that the decision to betray is always the wrong decision.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

cpacan said:


> ..........
> 
> The key in all this is this: You can’t skip the decision proces!!....


= making a CHOICE


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

So to summarize, and answer the thread title.

They cheat because they choose to. At some point, they give themselves permission. The reasons and justifications will vary, but follow a similar pattern. The betrayed spouse did something that made them choose to cheat, anything from loading the dishes in the dishwasher backwards to kicking puppies. 

When they come out of the fog (some never do), they realize that the betrayed spouse not only didn't have any input into the choice, or they would have said "no", they also realize that they were tricking the spouse, so the spouse really had no chance at helping, because they chose to go to a "friend" for help and trick the spouse with lies and deceit.


----------



## Moose Mania (Oct 28, 2013)

MovingAhead said:


> Well, I think you are doing awesome! God bless you sister. You sound like you figured it out. I hope you just keep working on yourself and your family and blessings keep coming your way.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, when your husband was behaving badly, did you try to talk to him, counsel or such? I mean really try, not just half heartedly?


I tried, a lot, over and over. Counselling was out of the question. That is something he was adamant about. We had the same arguments over and over, the same conversations over and over. He believed that the things that upset me were my problem. I would just have to learn to deal with it. 

He told me often, that my family had a much better history of longevity and it was pretty much guaranteed that I would outlive him, so after he was dead I could go find what I needed to be happy, but since he would likely pass first, I should let him be the happy one now.

We used to kind of laugh about that, but after several years of this being restated, it was very apparent that this was exactly how he felt. After his dad passed, it just got worse. There was no compassion, no empathy, no compromise, nothing. This was HIS life, I was his wife and I was to keep him happy and wait for my turn later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

> I think this says something about you and your thinking "who cares it's just sex"
> 
> I think that is very odd. Very . You detach from sex being important ( - "who cares" - Well you don't, or you say you don't ) and yet you have a history of complaint, of hurt, of victimisation about your wife never wanting to have sex with you !? There's a hypocrisy there


Your post really says more about your own individualized mindset than mine. 

I personally don't know any men that are unable to have sex with a pushy willing, loose woman, when they do NOT feel an ounce of love or even affection for the women they are having sex with. 

I think it's typically normal for an average man with a normal testosterone level to be able to easily separate sex from love. 

I don't know any male friends all throughout my entire life, that could not separate sex from love. I think that's were guys get the expression "pump her and dump her". Men do that often.

But most of my friends are high-wage earners and taller than 6 feet and that too indicates a high testosterone level. So maybe only high testosterone males can separate sex from love. 

I think that is why wealthy men can often frequent high-end call girls. They want sex without the hassle of the women falling in love and wanting to marry them, Like my OW did. 

I used call girls, but found it humiliating. I had plenty of women interested in me sexually so paying for it was degrading and humiliating.

However I did not count on the other woman suddenly deciding that she wanted to marry me, despite promises that she too was only interested in a sexual affair.

I enjoyed sex with my affair partner. There were even some things I liked about her. 

There were many more things however that I did not like about her and I certainly was not in love with her. It was not even a remote possibility in my mind. Not because she had several affairs, but she was just a rude, unkind, obnoxious person in general. 

Also, when my wife and I were frequently making love prior to her change in sex drive, my wife was a far better lover and I enjoyed making love to my wife more. Perhaps because we were making love, and not just having sex.

I did not in the end enjoy having to hurt this OW by being very stern about the affair being only about sex not love. That's another reason why affairs are not a good idea.



> I also find it odd that for years and years she would not touch you with a barge pole obviously illustrating no physical attraction toward you but now, because you went elsewhere - that's all been repaired! All is well...so suddenly after years of nil sexual action - she can't keep her hands off you :scratchhead:


Well we have found some common ground. I too find it odd. At first I thought it was only hysterical bonding. Something that was a turn off to me. But it has lasted too long to be only that.

When after wanting a divorce and getting a divorce without contest, my wife then contacted me and wanted to reconcile. 

My wife and I discussed the issue extensively alone and in the presence of the MC. I had the same question. 

I think if you read the thread thoroughly and with full comprehension you will find that question was answered. 

It was answered to my satisfaction. Really that's all that matters. Right?

The MC and my IC actually told me that a low or no sex drive in a wife is a common complaint among her male patients. Some women lose their sex drive in their 20s some when older.

It's a very common reason for men to have an affair. 

Perhaps too the affair was a wake up call for my wife. 

It showed her that she too broke the marriage vows by withholding sex for personal and even in her own words "selfish" reasons. 

So, she is an intelligent person and intelligent to acknowledge that we both did something selfish within the marriage. 

But, I am not complaining that we are now having sex. 

Why does it bother you?

What's your real beef? 

Does it bother you that I am a high-wage earner. That I am 6'2" or that I am able to attract sexual partners other than my wife?

Be honest. 



> in dealing with cheating, deceiving, trickle truthing, gaslighting rugsweeping, personality disorders through infidelity in two relationships going back 20+ years I've come to trust my instincts and my gut and nothing absolutely nothing, will ever persuade me that cheating did any marriage any good in any way whatsoever.


If your wives were formally diagnosed with a personality disorder it would be short sighted and harmful to your future for you to compare average normal people to personality disordered women. Personality disorders are a tough nut to crack. 

The average wayward however does not likely have a personality disorder. Some may be married to spouses that have them, though. Some may be married to spouses that are selfish or suddenly engage in selfish behaviors. 

But it's a free country. You are free to hate whomever you wish, including me. Have you had IC? That might help you move forward.


end of posting.




Headspin said:


> I think this says something about you and your thinking "who cares it's just sex"
> 
> I think that is very odd. Very . You detach from sex being important ( - "who cares" - Well you don't, or you say you don't ) and yet you have a history of complaint, of hurt, of victimisation about your wife never wanting to have sex with you !? There's a hypocrisy there
> 
> ...


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> Your post really says more about your own individualized mindset than mine.


 Really ? 


remorseful strayer said:


> I personally don't know any men that can NOT have sex with a pushy willing, loose women, without feeling an ounce of love or even affection for the women.


 I know a few


remorseful strayer said:


> I think it's typically normal for an average man with a normal testosterone level to be able to easily separate sex from love.


 Mmm well I think it's also quite normal for many men to feel and want a somewhat more 'connected' emotional feel to the person they have sex with.


remorseful strayer said:


> I don't know any male friends all throughout my entire life, that could not separate sex from love. I think that's were guys get the expression "pump here and dump her". Men do that often.


 But a lot do not.


remorseful strayer said:


> But most of my friends are high-wage earners and taller than 6 feet and that too indicates a high testosterone level. So maybe only high testosterone males can separate sex from love.


 Oh ffksakes.


remorseful strayer said:


> I think that is why wealthy men can often frequent high-end call girls. They want sex without the hassle of the women falling in love and wanting to marry them, Like my OW did.
> I used call girls, but found it humiliating. I had plenty of women interested in me sexually so paying for it was degrading and humiliating.


I would find it embarrassing for the girl tb frank. Never done this in my life. Just don't need that 'pure' sex thing. 


remorseful strayer said:


> Why does it bother you?


 It doesn't bother me as these days I have a good habit I think of calling it when I see some bullsh!t and arrogance on here. 


remorseful strayer said:


> What's your real beef?


 As I said I tend to say what I feel and if I feel it I'll say. You coming up with some high highfaluting idealogy about how cheating was good for a marriage is complete and utter tosh ........so I'll say so 


remorseful strayer said:


> Does it bother you that I am a high-wage earner. That I am 6'2" or that I am able to attract sexual partners other than my wife?


:rofl: seriously 
Yes of course, I'm all anxious that some bloke on an internet forum earns buckets of money is possessed with a 10 inch c0ck and looks like Bradd Pitt! Yes I wish I was YOU! Consider me a 'remorseful spouse' wannabe

I'll say one thing you got me pissing myself with that :rofl: 


remorseful strayer said:


> Be honest.


 Always


remorseful strayer said:


> If your wives were formally diagnosed with a personality disorder it would be short sighted and harmful to your future for you to compare average normal people to personality disordered women. Personality disorders are a tough nut to crack.


They are and fact is you really don't ever crack them you persevere through them


remorseful strayer said:


> The average wayward however does not likely have a personality disorder.


But actually they do it's often the fact that can deceive cheat lie destroy without remorse that indicates that they are disordered somewhat and in varying degrees


remorseful strayer said:


> But it's a free country. You are free to hate whomever you wish, including me.


Really you are silly. I don't hate you, but I have little respect for a cheat especially one who can seriously make out a case for 'positive cheating' like you have bizarrely tried to do 


remorseful strayer said:


> Have you had IC?


 Yes 


remorseful strayer said:


> That might help you move forward.


 I consider I am moved 'forward', still have my moments, bad hour or two but now the final financial details are almost settled and divorce is imminent I am more optimistic than for many many years and in a far healthier place than wondering how another cheating scumbag was going to turn my and my children's lives upside down again.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Does it bother you that I am a high-wage earner. That I am 6'2" or that I am able to attract sexual partners other than my wife?


:lol: :lol: :lol:

All of my friends are over 7 feet tall, and none of them can have sex without feeling love for the partner. 

I am a super duper high wage earner, thats way better than only a high-wage.

You can attract people other than your wife (although, technically for a decade she wasn't attracted to you).. I have to admit I've never known a person that's been able to attract more than one person over the course of a lifetime (even the really tall ones). I believe you are as unique as a snowflake with that one.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

> Really you are silly. I don't hate you, but I have little respect for a cheat especially one who can seriously make out a case for 'positive cheating' like you have bizarrely tried to do


Not silly enough for you to ignore, right?

Has your IC prescribed anxiety meds?





Headspin said:


> Really ?
> I know a few
> Mmm well I think it's also quite normal for many men to feel and want a somewhat more 'connected' emotional feel to the person they have sex with.
> But a lot do not.
> ...


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

russell28 said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> All of my friends are over 7 feet tall, and none of them can have sex without feeling love for the partner.
> 
> ...


Ahhhh! So I was right. I can see by your sarcastic reply that those issues ARE the issues that are at the root of the relentless attacks from some of the relentlessly angry people here. Maybe I am psychic.
Nah........ Just insightful.

At least you are honest. 

Now, wouldn't it be better for your mental health to let go of some of that misplaced anger at me, and the justified anger at your wife, and do what you need to do to make yourself happy?

BTW: If your friend is human and not Sasquatch and really is 7 feet tall. He may have a pituitary adenoma that prompts his pituitary to signal the release of abnormal amounts of growth hormone. Tell him to ask his doc to do a brain scan.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Ahhhh! So I was right. I can see by your sarcastic reply that those issues ARE the issues that are at the root of the relentless attacks from some of the relentlessly angry people here. Maybe I am psychic.
> 
> At least you are honest.
> 
> ...


I have no anger towards you, you just amuse me.

I have no anger towards my wife, I actually love her very much and have replaced anger with compassion and understanding.

You are upset with us because we didn't cheat, and you did. It bothers you that while some men are able to keep it in their pants, you can't. You have a good job, good height, but no self control. You are envious of those of us that have it. So you try to measure epeen by your salary and ability to toss big words around. You try to make others feel small and wrong to make yourself feel big and right. It doesn't work on me. I'm not like you, I don't let others push my buttons. When I put those little LOL guys, it was because I was actually laughing. I'm guessing I'm not the only one. You think people are jealous of your height, yet you are so shallow. You have lots of height, but no depth of character. A very short high school drop-out that makes a low-wage can see that. It doesn't take a PHD.

Edit to add: Also, my sarcasm isn't a sign of deep rooted anger, it's my sense of humor.. I have a very dry sense of humor, some call it sarcastic.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Waiting for the banhammer for this one:

"you are so shallow"

That's also what he does (gets people banned after trolling them with dime store analysis when they call him on it), aside from trying to build epeen on intrawebz forumz by telling everyone how much bigger and smarter he is than the average knuckle dragging mouth breathers that post here. He's so smaht and tall, forgive me for saying the word shallow mods. Please replace that with "testosterone filled".

Thank you.


----------



## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

russell28 said:


> Waiting for the banhammer for this one:
> 
> "you are so shallow"
> 
> ...


you should see this post (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...heating-save-your-marraige-4.html#post5531073)

he actually compared humans with lamps. apparently he believes his cheating(s) are like failed-experiments.you know , like the necessary steps that lead to success. he doesn't understand that his choices have a (negative)effect on human lives(his APs , their spouses, their children , their marriages , his own wife). I mean , how do you respond to that? :scratchhead:


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

user_zero said:


> you should see this post (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...heating-save-your-marraige-4.html#post5531073)
> 
> he actually compared humans with lamps. apparently he believes his cheating(s) are like failed-experiments.you know , like the necessary steps that lead to success. he doesn't understand that his choices have a (negative)effect on human lives(his APs , their spouses, their children , their marriages , his own wife). I mean , how do you respond to that? :scratchhead:


It's hard to argue with a tall man with tall friends. Especially a well paid one.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

russell28 said:


> It's hard to argue with a tall man with tall friends. Especially a well paid one.


No it isn't. I manage to argue with my husband often. Sorry, I had to inject some humor in to this horrifying thread.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

I'm going to wash my very expensive very shiny car with the fancy wheels that I purchased with my very high salary now.. Getting ready for the weekend. I will be very busy working next week so I might not get to post much, because I'm not only well paid, tall and drive a nice car.. I'm a very important person with a cool title. Have a great weekend everyone.


----------



## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

JCD said:


> Never gave my reasons. I discussed the matter generically. All of these are issues which, if not causing infidelity, have caused their partners enormous pain. If a partners actions would lead an outsider saying to the victim 'you should get a divorce' then it probably will...or infidelity.
> 
> And if that happens, sorry but you are a bad spouse. Own it and improve...or not. The divorce is irrelevant. Otherwise you will have a line of failed marriages, whether infidelity is involved or not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see your point. I also think that going though betrayal is a life-changing event in many cases. It certainly was for me. My parents suffered extensive pain in their marriage. No infidelity, but theirs was over differences in their world-views. They have and still are married past the 55 year mark. Not sure why they didn't divorce years ago. They say it was money.

The D or R probably is irrelevant in some regards. A BS that does not improve/adapt/change surely will continue to find themselves in bad relationships. The same case could be made for the perpetual cheater.

My confusion is still with the desire for a WS who would want R after and extended EA and PA. It seems that the R is only desired after the BS moves to D. The reasons are cited, but usually they are hollow, IMO. Mostly I hear it is for security, money, or kids. Maybe it is because the BS now behaves differently. 

Love? Most of us married for it. I wonder what love means to people refusing to work on themselves, and on their relationships. I certainly don't understand love as it relates to a WS wanting to keep their BS when they have given their heart to their AP.

Thanks JCD. I realize that we all disagree on some issues. I appreciate your comments even when I am not 100% on board with your ideas. Debate makes us think in new ways.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> Not silly enough for you to ignore, right?
> 
> Has your IC prescribed anxiety meds?


Yes only today he was saying "I'm sorry but I have to prescribe these and they are a strong dosage." 

"Why" I said 

He replied "well to be honest I am deeply concerned - I looked at a post on a forum you made and it mentioned you claiming you earned a $millon per annum !

Then you claimed you had a 10 inch c0ck ! 

You also said woman cannot resist you and you make Brad Pitt look like a bull dog!!!"

Now roll up your sleeve! 

He added "I've seen some claims in my time but these are just too much - especially as I know for a fact you earn nothing being on the social security and DO look like a bulldog minger

.........and sorry but I have to say this - you have a two inch c0ck as well"



........."there now, relax that should make you feel much better"


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

There are no reasons why a cheater cheats, only justifications. Those justifications run the gamut but it basically boils down to one thing in my experience....entitlement. They are somehow owed or deserve this because their spouse is or isn't doing x, y and z. 

That said, there are two types of cheaters once caught. Those who are truly remorseful and sickened by their behavior, own up to their entitlement complex and work to regain the trust, respect and love of their partner. Those people are the ones who in my experience are not bad people but people who made terrible choices and they own it. Then there are the other types who once caught, blameshift on their spouse and say it is the spouses fault that they made these terrible choices. They pay lip service with declarations of I'm sorry, let's get counseling, etc. but the reality is they really don't feel bad at all, just that they were caught. Those are the types that I truly believe are bad people. Their remorse is superficial only despite their protestations to the contrary and is often predicated on their spouse changing, not them. My father was this type.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> There are no reasons why a cheater cheats, only justifications. Those justifications run the gamut but it basically boils down to one thing in my experience....entitlement. They are somehow owed or deserve this because their spouse is or isn't doing x, y and z.
> 
> That said, there are two types of cheater behavior once caught. Those who are truly remorseful and sickened by their behavior, own up to their entitlement complex and work to regain the trust, respect and love of their partner. Those people are the ones who in my experience are not bad people but people who made terrible choices and rationalized them. Then there are the other types who once caught, blameshift on their spouse and say it is the spouses fault that they made these terrible choices. They are the ones who don't want to discuss what happened or do anything to regain the trust, respect and love of their partner.....they just want things to magically go back to the way things were, often reminding the spouse that any hiccup along the way is because the spouse just can't forget and move on. Those are the types that I truly believe are bad people. They have no remorse and continue with their entitlement attitude. My father was this type.


A ha but yes there are other 'groups'.

There's the group that accept the responsibility but only on on a shallow level. 

"Course I'm responsible. It was me and I was stupid it was my fault alone", 

"although.....

(muttering under their breath "mmm but if you had let me fk you when I wanted to (even though you were up to your neck in nappies (diapers) and a hoover in the other hand) I wouldn't have needed to go elsewhere, would I" 

"Yes darling what a fool I've been"


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Headspin said:


> A ha but yes there are other 'groups'.
> 
> There's the group that accept the responsibility but only on on a shallow level.
> 
> ...


I modified my post after you quoted it. Read it again, it touches on everything you said. My brain is "blah" today so I apologize for the hasty previous post.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

EI said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb, here, and risk the fairly decent amount of WS credibility I have earned on TAM and let the pieces fall where they may. I know that a lot of remorseful strayer's comments rub many, if not most, of you the wrong way. Even this former WS will admit that I have winced upon reading some of his previous posts. But, with the exception of one sentence in this comment, I fully support the point that he is trying to make. The only statement that remorseful strayer made that I do not agree with is this: "I think, YES, SOME AFFAIRS ARE JUSTIFIED." I looked up the word "justified" and this was the definition:_ 1. having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason._ I believe that replacing the words "good" or "legitimate" with the word "understandable" would enable me to accept that definition. Once again, there are no justifications for cheating, because nothing makes it good or legitimate. But, there are always reasons. Sometimes, there are reasons that are more understandable than others.
> 
> Even in the rare cases when a WS has been able to successfully convince the TAMers that they were, in fact, in terribly unhappy and/or dysfunctional marriages, and that they did, repeatedly, communicate, pre-A, their unhappiness to their spouses, they did work on their own issues, they did attend IC, they did request MC, but those pleas were disregarded and ignored, they are then told that they should have, could have, and that there is no excuse for not having first gotten a divorce. It can be repeated over and over and over again, that divorce is always the honorable option, but realistically speaking, there are some marriages, that for any number of reasons, when a divorce is simply not a viable option. Children, financial issues, health problems, property, insurance, jobs, familial obligations, etc. are all factors which each individual must consider. There are those who are fortunate enough to have adequate means and/or family support, higher education, good health, or other resources who may simply be incapable of comprehending those types of issues that are very real challenges for others.
> 
> ...


Are we alluding that an affair is always 50/50 responsibility on BS and WAS, that someones needs were always neglected especially if they were a female?


----------



## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

Let this thread die. There is not going to be any new revelation out of this anymore. People believe what they believe. WSs and their sympathizers will always believe that a BS has to take some blame for cheating. BSs and decent human beings will always believe that cheating is always on the WS, no matter how bad a marriage is; there is always the option of divorce, and not divorcing and going naughty with someone else is prime example of entitlement.

It is what it is. Posting the same thing over and over again is not going to make anyone change their mind. When this thread was posted, I highly doubt that anyone was willing to learn from their mistakes. Even the most remorseful ones hailed elsewhere on this board have shown their real face here.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

life101 said:


> Let this thread die. There is not going to be any new revelation out of this anymore. People believe what they believe. WSs and their sympathizers will always believe that a BS has to take some blame for cheating. BSs and decent human beings will always believe that cheating is always on the WS, no matter how bad a marriage is; there is always the option of divorce, and not divorcing and going naughty with someone else is prime example of entitlement.
> 
> It is what it is. Posting the same thing over and over again is not going to make anyone change their mind. When this thread was posted, I highly doubt that anyone was willing to learn from their mistakes. Even the most remorseful ones hailed elsewhere on this board have shown their real face here.


Absolutely

However I would say this - I hope this thread is maybe locked *but left here* because for once a few betrayed people have taken the trouble to counter point argue and not sit back and accept a bunch of masked and hidden excuses by some smart people who happen to have gone wayward at some point.

Normally they come on and argue with some obtuse and grandiose vocabulary about "it takes two etc etc" and people tend to leave it. 

Well for once the betrayed here have made some very very good and strong counter points without the usual,, waywards claim that they are being screamed at (their usual contention)

I'd like to point back to this thread every time I hear/see a former wayward giving their level 2 argument as to how 'cheating was better for a marriage' or how in effect 'they were made to do it'. 

It would save time arguing about it in another thread as well I spose

______________

And as for Remorseful Sprayer NeurobubblledyIhavethemostist

If maybe you took two inches off your height two million off your salary and 4inches off your you know what you might be treated with a bit of credibility / seriousness in future. :lol:


----------



## Enamored (Dec 25, 2009)

I am talking not about abusive or thrill seekers but only with respect to honest individuals with normal acceptable faults, which might be countered with other aspects if their characters. 
Don't we all get into a marriage with some entitlement ? Are we not entitled to love affection and some physical intimacy? What is wrong with entitlement mentality here. Should having same in a marriage should be the default and avoiding be abnormality ? 

Why is that all responsibilities fall on shoulders of WS and BS.
Cheating means when a person is not giving something to another person that s/he is entitled to, in this case his love , affection and physical intimacy . If you are abdicating that , then why crib when your spouse is giving it to someone else. After all you were to one who refused it.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Enamored said:


> I am talking not about abusive or thrill seekers but only with respect to honest individuals with normal acceptable faults, which might be countered with other aspects if their characters.
> Don't we all get into a marriage with some entitlement ? Are we not entitled to love affection and some physical intimacy? What is wrong with entitlement mentality here. Should having same in a marriage should be the default and avoiding be abnormality ?
> 
> Why is that all responsibilities fall on shoulders of WS and BS.
> Cheating means when a person is not giving something to another person that s/he is entitled to, in this case his love , affection and physical intimacy . If you are abdicating that , then why crib when your spouse is giving it to someone else. After all you were to one who refused it.


I'm a regular guy and am tired of trying to decipher posts

With respect can you make what you are saying simple plain english so that the more simplistic on here like myself can understand it?

Please (that's a genuine please and request )


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

life101 said:


> Let this thread die. There is not going to be any new revelation out of this anymore. People believe what they believe. WSs and their sympathizers will always believe that a BS has to take some blame for cheating. *BSs and decent human beings* will always believe that cheating is always on the WS, no matter how bad a marriage is; there is always the option of divorce, and not divorcing and going naughty with someone else is prime example of entitlement.
> 
> It is what it is. Posting the same thing over and over again is not going to make anyone change their mind. When this thread was posted, I highly doubt that anyone was willing to learn from their mistakes. Even the most remorseful ones hailed elsewhere on this board have shown their real face here.


What a self serving entitled definition. If you agree, you are 'decent'. If you add any caveats, you are scum.

Thank you for showing YOUR real face here, Javert, as a person without any empathy or understanding. Hanging those children stealing bread was a shame, but DECENT people understand morals are inflexible and arbitrary. There are no extenuating circumstances ever for anyone.

So...some Indian woman who was shoved into an arranged marriage, who has a lout of a husband with abuse, because...you know...she would be losing her reputation, her family, her job prospects, her children if she divorces...yeah...FIE on her, the shameless little cake eater if she DARES to find an tiny bit of joy in her life. No sympathy for her.

Where are those branding irons like they had in the good old days...


----------



## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

Enamored said:


> I am talking not about abusive or thrill seekers but only with respect to honest individuals with normal acceptable faults, which might be countered with other aspects if their characters.
> Don't we all get into a marriage with some entitlement ? Are we not entitled to love affection and some physical intimacy? What is wrong with entitlement mentality here. Should having same in a marriage should be the default and avoiding be abnormality ?
> 
> Why is that all responsibilities fall on shoulders of WS and BS.
> *Cheating means when a person is not giving something to another person that s/he is entitled to*, in this case his love , affection and physical intimacy . *If you are abdicating that , then why crib when your spouse is giving it to someone else. After all you were to one who refused it.*


you got the definition of cheating wrong. read this part of response I gave to EI : 

you're missing something in this nice paragraph of yours. you believe cheating in a marriage means : having your needs met by someone other than the spouse.
well that's wrong. cheating in a marriage means : having your needs met by someone other than the spouse *without the awareness/agreement of your spouse.*
because if it was with the awareness/agreement of spouse, it wouldn't be called cheating, they would call it an open marriage.
the BS's might (in some cases) be aware of problems in their marriage but they are not aware of cheating before it actually takes place. that's why we have a Dday (discovery day) , right? my point is if you(BS) are not aware of it then how could you(BS) be responsible for it? and let's be honest here ... we are talking about mature , adult people who know the consequences of their choices.


----------



## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

JCD said:


> What a self serving entitled definition. If you agree, you are 'decent'. If you add any caveats, you are scum.
> 
> Thank you for showing YOUR real face here, Javert, as a person without any empathy or understanding. Hanging those children stealing bread was a shame, but DECENT people understand morals are inflexible and arbitrary. There are no extenuating circumstances ever for anyone.
> 
> ...


here comes , JCD with his bizarre examples. 
nobody here talking about Indian women forced into marriage. WS(s) are mature people, adults... who have free choice ... who know the consequences of their choice to cheat before they cheat. they choose to go outside of their marriage *without the awareness/agreement of their spouse*. that's why we have Ddays. that's why we call it cheating. if it was with awareness/agreement of both of them , it would be called open marriage.


----------



## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

People cheat because they're imperfect and/or broken, and other factors may get thrown in the hopper (e.g., opportunity, technology) too.

The marriages that they were in may have been fine, average, or miserable. But as the affair gets underway (and later on, in retrospect), unfaithful people struggle with cognitive dissonance so they rewrite marital history. So wherever their marriage was on that scale of fine to miserable, their view of it is distorted toward the miserable end: one thing they're not good at is viewing the marriage realistically, nor through their partner's eyes.

I have text message evidence of my husband's playful and loving messages to me during the time of his affair (yes, he was also intermittently more crabby than usual, but he was traveling a lot and dealing with a new medical problem, so I cut him some slack). When we first started talking about his affair, he remembered only pulling away from me at this time, and not feeling close. But I have the sweet text messages (he now says he has always loved me, so they weren't lies); and Mr. pulling away and I were having sex (though I know now he was having unprotected sex with her, putting me at risk of STD's and not even giving it a second thought).

Bottom line: cheaters are imperfect, sometimes broken people who also have imperfect evaluation skills regarding the state of their marriages, during and even after their affairs.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

user_zero said:


> here comes , JCD with his bizarre examples.
> nobody here talking about Indian women forced into marriage. WS(s) are mature people, adults... who have free choice ... who know the consequences of their choice to cheat before they cheat. they choose to go outside of their marriage *without the awareness/agreement of their spouse*. that's why we have Ddays. that's why we call it cheating. if it was with awareness/agreement of both of them , it would be called open marriage.


I bring up 'bizarre' examples to see if the BBS can see ANY circumstance where someone might be in a crappy situation and, while being wrong, maybe deserve a little slack.

But sadly, no. You are more likely to get sympathy as a murderer, an alcoholic or an abusive spouse than any form of cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

JCD said:


> What a self serving entitled definition. If you agree, you are 'decent'. If you add any caveats, you are scum.
> 
> Thank you for showing YOUR real face here, Javert, as a person without any empathy or understanding. Hanging those children stealing bread was a shame, but DECENT people understand morals are inflexible and arbitrary. There are no extenuating circumstances ever for anyone.
> 
> ...


I assume you have never been to India or lived there. It is not a land of snake charmers anymore, you know. If you decide to pull an example out of your you know where, please choose something different. Divorce now is pretty common in India and people from all social classes do it. Don't always believe the sensationalized news you read on papers. India is a country of 1.2 billion people, and you hear of anomalies because, well, they are sensational. Where do you get the fact that being divorced hampers a woman's ability to get a job? Seriously. I would really love to get my hand on that piece of data.

Cheating is cheating. In all the countries, nowadays, you can get a divorce if you don't want to stay with a person. You stay in a marriage and cheat because you like to eat the cake and have it too. Sorry, but I call a spade a spade. But again, I am the one here with no heart or empathy. 

I am done responding to this thread. You can bring a horse to water but you cannot force it to drink, no matter how cruel you are.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

I actually enjoyed reading your post. 

I await the next. 

But really, you accused me of tossing "big words around". Am I??????




russell28 said:


> I have no anger towards you, you just amuse me.
> 
> I have no anger towards my wife, I actually love her very much and have replaced anger with compassion and understanding.
> 
> ...


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

russell28 said:


> It's hard to argue with a tall man with tall friends. Especially a well paid one.


The thread question was: "why do people cheat?"

Taking my statement out of context won't make you right. 

The fact is that high testosterone levels are found in men who have mistresses or OWs. They also tend to be high wage earners. OWs aren't cheap. 

The fact is, based on scientific studies, High-wage earners have higher testosterone levels as do tall men. 

Interesting to note, too, that there are studies that show that tall women, earning a high wage, typically have higher testosterone levels than their male underlings. 

It's a simple fact. Does that bother you, too?

Those are all simple facts, google them. Why does that factual information bother you so much?

Women are attracted to men who earn high wages and Tall men. 

Those type of men typically have more opportunity to cheat and thus more temptation.

Another simple fact. Why does it bother you?

Also, is it possible to have a discussion with some here without them leveling off topic personal attacks?


----------



## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

JCD said:


> I bring up 'bizarre' examples to see if the BBS can see ANY circumstance where someone might be in a crappy situation and, while being wrong, maybe deserve a little slack.


deserve a little slack? let me clarify something for you. from my understanding , there are two kinda wrongs(mistakes).

1- wrongs(mistakes) that happen because they didn't know it was wrong. like a kid wants to get something good for his mother's birthday. he ends up stealing the gift. he didn't know it was wrong. he was a kid. he didn't know. his goal was good. but he did mistake along the way. these people , I believe , deserve slack.

2- the second group are responsible adults who know what they're doing is wrong. they know the consequences. they know eventually everybody(their family , kids, ...) gonna get hurt. but they still do it. I believe , these people don't deserve any kinda slack.

now let's examine our subject. cheating happens by adult people. people who are mature enough to understand nothing good would come out of it. but they still do it. JCD, you did cheat in your marriage , right? I want to ask you how would you see the outcome of your affair at the time of your cheating? did you really believe that nobody would get hurt by it? did you really believe that it would be good for all? let me guess. you didn't think about it. in fact every time these thoughts came your head, you tried to block the whole thought process , right? tell me what did was the result?



JCD said:


> But sadly, no. You are more likely to get sympathy as a murderer, an alcoholic or an abusive spouse than any form of cheating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sympathy? oh ... man. I don't think it would wise to compare these things. but let me tell you what I think. alcoholic , murderer , abusive spouse , cheater, I don't have any kinda of sympathy for these people. because they are adults (usually). they know what they are doing is wrong. they know the consequences. and they still do it. they don't deserve sympathy. they deserve proper response. they deserve to understand , to feel , to experience , to carry the result of their choices. and just let me add something here : none of these are the proper response for another. the cheating isn't the proper response for the abusive spouse. the murder, drinking alcohol are not the proper responses for the cheating. 

I think it's interesting that WS (usually the woman) who is in a relationship with a abusive spouse , can't be responsible for their choices because of so much mental/emotional abuse. you know because we consider them mentally weak. but despite all of that mental/emotional abuse , they can still pull off something like an affair. affair requires calculation, planing , hiding contacts , .... . just saying it's very interesting.

-----------------------------------------
JCD , no offense man , but when I read your posts all I see an emotional person who did something very bad and now he cannot accept the fact that he did. he is so desperate to somehow make it ok. to remove at least a little of the pain he feels by running to these bizarre examples. honestly my friend , there is just no way that's gonna work. think about it , you're doing this for a long time. if it could work, it would work already. but you know what .............. don't believe me. keep doing it. see for yourself where this path leads.


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

> Lovemytruck said:
> 
> 
> > My confusion is still with the desire for a WS who would want R after and extended EA and PA. It seems that the R is only desired after the BS moves to D. The reasons are cited, but usually they are hollow, IMO. Mostly I hear it is for security, money, or kids. Maybe it is because the BS now behaves differently.
> ...


----------



## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Could cut the arrogance easily with a dull knife in this thread.
Good God.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

