# Really need help, don't know what to do, or where to start



## PaulD

Thank-you in advance for reading my post. I feel dead inside and have no one to turn to.

Background information
-High school sweethearts (met when we were 18)
-Went off to College and she got pregnant
-Had the baby and we both made major sacrifices and finished school
-Got married
-Had second child

10 total years together of which 6.5 being married.

It all started back in the summer time for us, when things were getting rough. I detached emotionally from the relationship and we just co-existed. Without getting too much into it, we both did some soul searching, I did some maturing, and we put 100% effort into it. It was incredible. Felt like I was with someone new, like I was learning deep things about her I never knew before.

Fast forward to around the end of October. She had a work function, like a team building excursion. She got very drunk and came home very late. I was seething. Truth of the matter is, I've always felt uncomfortable with her going out. Either the work function or just with the girls. She acts very flirty when drinking and it makes me uncomfortable. I was so scared to lose her because although we had come far in the relationship, a side effect of that was I became insecure, and felt like I didn't deserve her. I asked who drove her home, a male coworker. She couldn't lie cause I saw the truck in the driveway. For the first time in my life I logged into our cell phone provider and saw she had texted this man approx. 20 times during the work function. They were sitting right next to each other. I became very suspicious and also saw a single message he sent later in the night which she flat out denied. I was forced to prove it and she fessed up. She said he was going through a separation and needed someone to talk. At this point our relationship was very strong and I tried to put it past.

I should also add that my wife put a password on her phone just before this. She claimed it was to keep the kids out.

Fast forward a bit and I became a bit of a crazy person. I questioned alot of actions and became almost obsessed with the possiblity that something was going on. On New Years he texted her. We fought again. She was absolutely livid at me that I could accuse her of being unfaithfull. In my heart I knew she wasnt being unfaithful. I accused her of an emotional affair. She denied it.

Fast forward to this weekend and things got rough. She purchased a new cell phone she wasn't familiar with, but I knew it kept a history of text messages. I found a message from her best from Saturday. She was having a bad day at work, it went something like this:

her: Having a bad day
friend: awww how come
her: I hate this place
friend: Why don't you get T (the guy) to cheer you up
her: He's part of the problem. Nothing he did
her: It's just S (a girl at work) is here 
friend: awww you don't need to be jealous B (wife) you have his penis in the palm of your hand
friend:I think it's cute that you are though

They continued to discuss work.

I found this after my wife went to bed and woke her up to discuss. I was devistated. All my suspicions were true. I wasn't crazy like I thought. We discussed all night, and basically, she admitted she had a small crush on him, but that only stems from the fact the she felt he was into her. She swore on everything important to her that this was it. Just a harmless crush and that she would do everything to separate herself from the situation. I had no choice to accept.

BUT THERE'S MORE

Yesterday she received a text from him asking something mundane. She felt obligated to show me, trying to provide some transparency. I encouraged her to text him back. The look on her face was unbelievable. She almost cried that she didnt want to text him back. Regardless she did, and he had another mundane response. I was satisfied. But not completely.

Last night, when she fell asleep I checked her history again with a different friend. It went something like this:

friend: f my life. Look what he sent me (it was a message from a married man she was having an affair with. He wanted her back, but the friend being married herself, broke it off with him a few months back)
friend: I don`t know what to do.
wife: Tell him you need time to think
friend: I can`t do it. (Implying she wanted to stay in her marriage)
wife: That`s good.
friend: How are things with you and T
wife: I broke it off a bit ago
wife: It`s for the best. We can be good girls together.

I can`t describe the devastation I felt. I awoke her. Long story short she admitted to cheating. She said it was just kissing, and it would happen at work when they closed together. She said it happened less than 10 times and has been happening since mid December. I should add our sex life has been completely normal the whole time.

I don`t know what to believe. What if it was more than just kissing. How can I ever find out. I even called the guy calmly and pleaded with him to tell me. He didn`t want to get involved.

I have not slept, my wife is pleading to try and work it out. She said she broke it off with him. I`m so lost.

Any advice


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## keko

I must have read 100+ stories where the cheating spouse claimed it was just a kiss. Do you know how many of them ended up being only a kiss? Zero. She had sex with that guy, most likely way too many times for it to be considered a mistake. 

Get tested for STD's and don't have sex with her in the foreseeable future.


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## Jasel

Sorry to hear this. 98% chance she had sex with the guy I'm also sorry to say. I'd DNA test your kids also and get an STD test.

Now unlike a lot of people here I do not think bringing up reconciliation, talking about working on the marriage, laying down conditions/ultimatums from the start of discovering an affair is the best idea. I really don't think putting that hope into a WS head is the best idea because it's more likely to just promote cake-eating, an underground affair, more trickle truth and a false reconcilliation.

I really think what works best is filing for divorce (you don't actually have to go through with the divorce), kicking the spouse out if you can, showing your spouse that while you're hurt you're capable of moving on without them, gauging their reaction for TRUE remorse and a willingness to save the marriage, THEN you start laying down conditions for reconciliation.

You also can't believe anything she tells you at the moment because it sounds like she's still lying and saying what she has to to keep you around.

Oh and you also need to expose to both your famiilies and friends. Also the other man's wife/girlfriend if he has one and you can track her down.


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## ubercoolpanda

Polygraph
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ShootMePlz!

Forward those texts to yourself and Expose her friend as well to her betrayed husband!!! :smthumbup:


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## PaulD

ShootMePlz! said:


> Forward those texts to yourself and Expose her friend as well to her betrayed husband!!! :smthumbup:


I wouldnt feel right exposing her. But I have considered extorting her for more information regarding my wife.

Thnks for all the responses. I`m digesting them and I`ll have a proper reply.


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## Jasel

Make sure you save any evidence you have as well and keep it somewhere your wife can't find it.


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## keko

Jasel said:


> Make sure you save any evidence you have as well and keep it somewhere your wife can't find it.


A side note on this, since you confronted on her text messages she'll be smarter about it and hide it better next time. Don't be surprised if you find a burner phone either in her car or hidden somewhere in the house.


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## lordmayhem

*Re: Re: Really need help, don't know what to do, or where to start*



keko said:


> A side note on this, since you confronted on her text messages she'll be smarter about it and hide it better next time. Don't be surprised if you find a burner phone either in her car or hidden somewhere in the house.


Damn right.

She MUST go NC. And there can be no NC as long as she works there. She must quit that job. There is no other way.


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## Asian

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bryanp

My friend you know she is lying. She is in total damage control. She is like an iceberg in that there is so much more you don't see. You have caught her in lie after lie. She is trickle truthing you. You clearly need to polygraph.

Look she said she is breaking it off with the other guy so her and her cheating friend can be good girls together. Good God, what more do you need to know? Make sure the both of you now get tested for STD's. I am sorry to say but she is playing you for a fool.


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## Chaparral

PaulD said:


> I wouldnt feel right exposing her. But I have considered extorting her for more information regarding my wife.
> 
> Thnks for all the responses. I`m digesting them and I`ll have a proper reply.


Actually, I like this although I would eventually rat her out. 

You could also use this on the OM. If you do this you need to have copies of proof. Record the convos. You eventually have to tell his wife anyway. That helps keep him away from your wife in order to save his marriage. All your wife was to him is a booty call.

You will need to tell her HR dept too.

Put a VAR, velcroed under her car seat. Cheaters always use the car to talk in since they think it is completely safe. Even if she doesn't talk to OM she will be talking to friends.

Never let her know how you are getting your info.


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## WTHiswrong

keko said:


> I must have read 100+ stories where the cheating spouse claimed it was just a kiss. Do you know how many of them ended up being only a kiss? Zero. She had sex with that guy, most likely way too many times for it to be considered a mistake.
> 
> Get tested for STD's and don't have sex with her in the foreseeable future.


I agree. Didn't end withjust a kiss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## theroad

Your WW has been banging this OM.

You need to get the book Surviving An Affair by Dr Harley. You will have to expose this affair and get WW to quit her job.


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## WTHiswrong

Good idea to blackmail the friend for information. You need the messages for leverage though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Machiavelli

The following advice assumes you want to keep her. Everybody has to make their own decision on that one. Since you have kids, you may want to try, briefly. Just realize that your wife's sexuality was most likely profoundly changed by this kind of behavior, and it may have started a long time back.



PaulD said:


> Background information
> -High school sweethearts (met when we were 18)
> -Went off to College and she got pregnant
> -Had the baby and we both made major sacrifices and finished school
> -Got married
> -Had second child
> 
> 10 total years together of which 6.5 being married.
> 
> It all started back in the summer time for us, when things were getting rough. I detached emotionally from the relationship and we just co-existed. Without getting too much into it, we both did some soul searching, I did some maturing, and we put 100% effort into it. It was incredible. Felt like I was with someone new, like I was learning deep things about her I never knew before.


Usually, distancing on the part of the spouse is one of the first clues of adultery, either pending or consummated. It's part of the WW's rationalization for the affair. *What happened last summer, exactly?* And since she was making things "rough" as you put it last summer, WIH would you believe she only started banging OM in December? Depending on an alternative explanation, I would say her most recent affair behavior actually began last summer, with this guy or another guy(s). Once a woman crosses this line, the inner slvt comes forth.

Your wife is approx 28 years old, so her testosterone is ramping up to send her libido through the roof and help make her interested in collecting random "wild oats" from various males. This is Mother Nature trying to get her to knock out a few more kids before she goes barren. A fairly large percentage of women have already lost fertility at 30, so this is a natural impulse that many formerly worthy wives choose to indulge in at this age.



PaulD said:


> Fast forward to around the end of October. She had a work function, like a team building excursion. She got very drunk and came home very late. I was seething. Truth of the matter is, *I've always felt uncomfortable with her going out.*


So, why did you allow these drinking and grinding excursions? When you permit this, it is a Demonstration of Lower Value (DLV) as a man and subconsciously, and even consciously in the end stages, reduces your worthiness as a man in your WW's eyes.



PaulD said:


> Either the work function or just with the girls. She acts very flirty when drinking and it makes me uncomfortable.


No more GNOs. No more work functions, because you're having her quit her job and find new work where she is not already a known office whöre. Time for a fresh start.



PaulD said:


> *I was so scared to lose her* because although we had come far in the relationship, a side effect of that was I became insecure, and felt like I didn't deserve her.


Trying to "work in the relationship" when presented with adulterous behavior by the WW is another DLV (demonstration of lower value.) Women take all their cues on attraction to males from other females. That's why they always run off to the "powder room" to discuss who's hot and who's not. That's why they always have at minimum one friend they can share their affairs and sexploits with. Once the wife decides that other women have no interest in you sexually, they lose interest, too. This is often a chicken and egg deal, but it always goes together. When you act like you're willing to tolerate anything to keep her, it makes you repulsive to her. If you act like, "great, now I can bang all those women who've been after me," that makes you very, very attractive. It's the married version of the Preselection Principle.



PaulD said:


> I asked who drove her home, a male coworker. She couldn't lie cause I saw the truck in the driveway. For the first time in my life I logged into our cell phone provider and saw she had texted this man approx. 20 times during the work function. They were sitting right next to each other. I became very suspicious and also saw a single message he sent later in the night which she flat out denied. I was forced to prove it and she fessed up. She said he was going through a separation and needed someone to talk. At this point our relationship was very strong and *I tried to put it past.*


Another DLV.



PaulD said:


> I should also add that my wife put a password on her phone just before this. She claimed it was to keep the kids out.


Your acceptance of this was an enormous DLV. It was interpreted by your wife as you tolerating outrageous affair behavior that she considered fairly obvious. Putting a password on the phone that is unknown to the husband is something that's quite provocative and she'd been working up to for a while. As in: last summer.



PaulD said:


> Fast forward a bit and I became a bit of a crazy person. I questioned alot of actions and became almost obsessed with the possiblity that something was going on. On New Years he texted her. We fought again. She was absolutely livid at me that I could accuse her of being unfaithfull. *In my heart I knew she wasnt being unfaithful.* I accused her of an emotional affair. She denied it.


And you were wrong. Women, including your wife, don't belong up on a moral pedestal. Most likely, there is much more to learn about how far she's fallen of that pedestal.



PaulD said:


> Fast forward to this weekend and things got rough. She purchased a new cell phone she wasn't familiar with, but I knew it kept a history of text messages. I found a message from her best from Saturday. She was having a bad day at work, it went something like this:
> 
> her: Having a bad day
> friend: awww how come
> her: I hate this place
> friend: Why don't you get T (the guy) to cheer you up
> her: He's part of the problem. Nothing he did
> her: It's just S (a girl at work) is here
> friend: awww you don't need to be jealous B (wife) you have his penis in the palm of your hand
> friend:I think it's cute that you are though
> 
> They continued to discuss work.
> 
> I found this after my wife went to bed and woke her up to discuss. I was devistated. All my suspicions were true. I wasn't crazy like I thought. We discussed all night, and basically, she admitted she had a small crush on him, but that only stems from the fact the she felt he was into her. She swore on everything important to her that this was it. Just a harmless crush and that she would do everything to separate herself from the situation. I had no choice to accept.


No, you had a choice and you chose to drink the Kool-Aid. Seriously, man? "You have his penis in the palm of your hand." That's some serious denial of reality on your part. That also lowered your SMV (sexual market value) in your wife's eyes some more.




PaulD said:


> BUT THERE'S MORE
> 
> Yesterday she received a text from him asking something mundane. She felt obligated to show me, trying to provide some transparency. I encouraged her to text him back. The look on her face was unbelievable. She almost cried that she didnt want to text him back. Regardless she did, and he had another mundane response. I was satisfied. But not completely.


Well, at least you weren't completely snowed this time.




PaulD said:


> Last night, when she fell asleep I checked her history again with a different friend. It went something like this:
> 
> friend: f my life. Look what he sent me (it was a message from a married man she was having an affair with. He wanted her back, but the friend being married herself, broke it off with him a few months back)
> friend: I don`t know what to do.
> wife: Tell him you need time to think
> friend: I can`t do it. (Implying she wanted to stay in her marriage)
> wife: That`s good.
> friend: How are things with you and T
> wife: I broke it off a bit ago
> wife: It`s for the best. We can be good girls together.


Another toxic friend to share sex stories with and encourage each other. If you choose reconciliation, she quits the job and gets rid of all her friends who were in this with her or knew about it in any way.



PaulD said:


> I can`t describe the devastation I felt. I awoke her. Long story short she admitted to cheating. She said it was just kissing, and it would happen at work when they closed together.


In cheater speak, "kissing" is what normal people refer to as "fvcking." Kissing is a big deal in 6th grade. What adult women want out of affair sex is a hard animalistic pounding. They call this "passion."



PaulD said:


> She said it happened less than 10 times and has been happening since mid December.


She's lying. Women always under report sexual experience. They even lie to themselves in order to maintain their self image. It's why they can "be good girls together," as your WW puts it, when they are really adulterous skanks.



PaulD said:


> I should add our sex life has been completely normal the whole time.


And that is a very, very bad sign. This is not her first rodeo. If you want to know when this started, go back as far as you can in your marriage memory to the first time her desire for you began to flag and you went through a period of "not tonight, I've got a headache" excuses.



PaulD said:


> I don`t know what to believe. What if it was more than just kissing.


Sorry, man, but there is absolutely no doubt about that.



PaulD said:


> How can I ever find out.


Quite hiding your eyes and start educating yourself on women and men. A lot of women keep blogs on all their extracurricular activities. It makes for fascinating reading. Your wife fvcked him many times. Wake up and smell the porking. 



PaulD said:


> I even called the guy calmly and pleaded with him to tell me. He didn`t want to get involved.


Another massive DLV. This one really killed any attraction your wife still might have had for you. You only contact the OM when you pull him into a dark alley for a "talking to."



PaulD said:


> I have not slept, my wife is pleading to try and work it out. She said she broke it off with him. I`m so lost.


You certainly have evidence she broke it off, so that's most likely the only thing truthful she's told you, yet. You're going to need to DNA your kids and have her sit a polygraph to find out how long this has been going on.

Also, you consistently demonstrate weakness and that's sexually repellant to women. Let me ask you, do women ever hit on you?


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## Entropy3000

This should have been addressed sooner. Easy for me to say. I suspect in this case however things escalated to a PA way quicker than the OP could have reacted. Just speculation.

But for sure all through this there were displays of low value and sliding boundaries. SOP. This is a woman openly cheating along with a wingowman who also cheats.

I am unclear as to how long the late nights out drinking were going on. That should not have been acceptable from the start. They actually enabled her infidelity. These fed the workplace affair. Chicken and Egg. 

She has to quit her job immediatley and she needs a job where there are no more of these activities. But really this is only because there are children. Otherwise why would he R at all?

What faithful wife gets so drunk she cannot drive home herself or at least calls her husband to pick her up. What faithful wife accepts a ride home from a male co-worker when she is trashed. Why would a woman put herself in that postition? No woman should trust any man not her relative in that case. But to be sure they had sex that night and times before. They just got bold enough to let the OM drive her home and hand her back to her husband after he used her.

Anway, this is one of those situations where while he enabled things I think she just flat chose to this cheating life style.

And why do we still see people defending these drunken nights out?


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## Machiavelli

Entropy3000 said:


> But to be sure they had sex that night and times before. They just got bold enough to let the OM drive her home and hand her back to her husband after he used her.


And I'm sure they got a few laughs out of that around the office.


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## PaulD

Entropy3000 said:


> This should have been addressed sooner. Easy for me to say. I suspect in this case however things escalated to a PA way quicker than the OP could have reacted. Just speculation.
> 
> But for sure all through this there were displays of low value and sliding boundaries. SOP. This is a woman openly cheating along with a wingowman who also cheats.
> 
> I am unclear as to how long the late nights out drinking were going on. That should not have been acceptable from the start. They actually enabled her infidelity. These fed the workplace affair. Chicken and Egg.
> 
> She has to quit her job immediatley and she needs a job where there are no more of these activities. But really this is only because there are children. Otherwise why would he R at all?
> 
> What faithful wife gets so drunk she cannot drive home herself or at least calls her husband to pick her up. What faithful wife accepts a ride home from a male co-worker when she is trashed. Why would a woman put herself in that postition? No woman should trust any man not her relative in that case. But to be sure they had sex that night and times before. They just got bold enough to let the OM drive her home and hand her back to her husband after he used her.
> 
> Anway, this is one of those situations where while he enabled things I think she just flat chose to this cheating life style.
> 
> And why do we still se people defending these drunken nights out?


I want to add that the co-worker excursions were a team building exercise. Not just my wife and the guy out. I also know there was 2 other people in the truck that night so I don't believe anything happened on this occasion.


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## Entropy3000

Machiavelli said:


> And I'm sure they got a few laughs out of that around the office.


Absolutely. This was a way for the OM to dominate and humiliate the husband. Some guys get off the taking of another man's wife. Unclear if this was part of her motivation or not.

Perhaps her being too drunk to drive was a veiled excuse for her to leave with this guy but I am sure the folks who she works with know about this.

I suppose this scenario plays out often enough. A guy taking a drunken woman home to her husband. UFB.

Even with no sex involved I find this incredibly disrespectful. Watch some defend this as to not wanting her to drive home drunk. furst she should not have done this. That was a choice. Secondly she should have called her husband.


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## Entropy3000

PaulD said:


> I want to add that the co-worker excursions were a team building exercise. Not just my wife and the guy out. I also know there was 2 other people in the truck that night so I don't believe anything happened on this occasion.


Oh I was very clear on this. Trust me I can tell you many stories about team building events involving married folks.

I was travelling last week. Lots of team building going on. Lots of drunk wives behaving badly. Drunk husbands too. But it makes me shake my head when I see these woman acting out like some do. Wives gone wild. No joke. Maybe they are in open relationships. That is possible.

You do know that no one can force a woman to get drunk. You do know that none of us have to succumb to peer pressure even in a work team building environment. You do know that often enough the side agenda of this stuff is to break down the barriers of the female coworkers so some of the men can get into their pants? You do know this. 

Also just being told something is a team building exercise does not make it so. For sure anytime I go out with my cowrokers it is team building. It is team building when the married guys go to the VIP room. It is team building when a coworker takes a married woman out to the parking lot for a while.
It is team building when a guy feels up a married woman right there in the bar and they are making out.

It is a game. A way of masking what is really going on. Spin. I am not saying everyone involved is banging everyone else. However a woman who allows herself to get drunk in these cases is called .... prey. A married guy who sits there while a married or single woman straddles him is not doing a legitimate team building exercise.


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## Machiavelli

PaulD said:


> I want to add that the co-worker excursions were a team building exercise. Not just my wife and the guy out. I also know there was 2 other people in the truck that night so I don't believe anything happened on this occasion.


A night time team building exercise with alcohol? Who else was in the truck?

What happened back in the stall at the men's room or out behind the dumpster?


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## weightlifter

PaulD said:


> Thank-you in advance for reading my post. I feel dead inside and have no one to turn to.
> 
> Background information
> -High school sweethearts (met when we were 18)
> -Went off to College and she got pregnant
> -Had the baby and we both made major sacrifices and finished school
> -Got married
> -Had second child
> 
> 10 total years together of which 6.5 being married.
> 
> It all started back in the summer time for us, when things were getting rough. I detached emotionally from the relationship and we just co-existed. Without getting too much into it, we both did some soul searching, I did some maturing, and we put 100% effort into it. It was incredible. Felt like I was with someone new, like I was learning deep things about her I never knew before.
> 
> Fast forward to around the end of October. She had a work function, like a team building excursion. She got very drunk and came home very late. I was seething. Truth of the matter is, I've always felt uncomfortable with her going out. Either the work function or just with the girls. She acts very flirty when drinking and it makes me uncomfortable. I was so scared to lose her because although we had come far in the relationship, a side effect of that was I became insecure, and felt like I didn't deserve her. I asked who drove her home, a male coworker. She couldn't lie cause I saw the truck in the driveway. For the first time in my life I logged into our cell phone provider and saw she had texted this man approx. 20 times during the work function. They were sitting right next to each other. I became very suspicious and also saw a single message he sent later in the night which she flat out denied. I was forced to prove it and she fessed up. She said he was going through a separation and needed someone to talk. At this point our relationship was very strong and I tried to put it past.
> 
> I should also add that my wife put a password on her phone just before this. She claimed it was to keep the kids out.
> 
> Fast forward a bit and I became a bit of a crazy person. I questioned alot of actions and became almost obsessed with the possiblity that something was going on. On New Years he texted her. We fought again. She was absolutely livid at me that I could accuse her of being unfaithfull. In my heart I knew she wasnt being unfaithful. I accused her of an emotional affair. She denied it.
> 
> Fast forward to this weekend and things got rough. She purchased a new cell phone she wasn't familiar with, but I knew it kept a history of text messages. I found a message from her best from Saturday. She was having a bad day at work, it went something like this:
> 
> her: Having a bad day
> friend: awww how come
> her: I hate this place
> friend: Why don't you get T (the guy) to cheer you up
> her: He's part of the problem. Nothing he did
> her: It's just S (a girl at work) is here
> friend: awww you don't need to be jealous B (wife) you have his penis in the palm of your hand
> friend:I think it's cute that you are though
> 
> They continued to discuss work.
> 
> I found this after my wife went to bed and woke her up to discuss. I was devistated. All my suspicions were true. I wasn't crazy like I thought. We discussed all night, and basically, she admitted she had a small crush on him, but that only stems from the fact the she felt he was into her. She swore on everything important to her that this was it. Just a harmless crush and that she would do everything to separate herself from the situation. I had no choice to accept.
> 
> BUT THERE'S MORE
> 
> Yesterday she received a text from him asking something mundane. She felt obligated to show me, trying to provide some transparency. I encouraged her to text him back. The look on her face was unbelievable. She almost cried that she didnt want to text him back. Regardless she did, and he had another mundane response. I was satisfied. But not completely.
> 
> Last night, when she fell asleep I checked her history again with a different friend. It went something like this:
> 
> friend: f my life. Look what he sent me (it was a message from a married man she was having an affair with. He wanted her back, but the friend being married herself, broke it off with him a few months back)
> friend: I don`t know what to do.
> wife: Tell him you need time to think
> friend: I can`t do it. (Implying she wanted to stay in her marriage)
> wife: That`s good.
> friend: How are things with you and T
> wife: I broke it off a bit ago
> wife: It`s for the best. We can be good girls together.
> 
> I can`t describe the devastation I felt. I awoke her. Long story short she admitted to cheating. She said it was just kissing, and it would happen at work when they closed together. She said it happened less than 10 times and has been happening since mid December. I should add our sex life has been completely normal the whole time.
> 
> I don`t know what to believe. What if it was more than just kissing. How can I ever find out. I even called the guy calmly and pleaded with him to tell me. He didn`t want to get involved.
> 
> I have not slept, my wife is pleading to try and work it out. She said she broke it off with him. I`m so lost.
> 
> Any advice


You dont "Break off" a kiss. Sorry. Time to go into overdrive snooping and initiate polygraph sequence.


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## Entropy3000

May I ask what she does for a living? 

Does she travel for her work?


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## lovesux

If you can afford it, hire a Private Investigator and gather evidence..you'll need it. If you share a computer/laptop install a Key Logger. The TRUTH usually comes out. It's better to face it now and divorce her!

She will keep denying the facts just like mine did. A lot of these women are either F*ed up in the head, ungrateful or just plain bored or don't have strong love/morals.

You need to dump her (with evidence). The suspicion is killing you as it is and even is she admits it or not- it's for your own gratification and proof, i doubt that you will ever forgive her.

Betrayal is hard...i'm dealing with it right now (since 3 weeks). I filed for a divorce..and knew my wife since 10 years too.


----------



## lovesux

Entropy3000 said:


> Oh I was very clear on this. Trust me I can tell you many stories about team building events involving married folks.
> 
> I was travelling last week. Lots of team building going on. Lots of drunk wives behaving badly. Drunk husbands too. But it makes me shake my head when I see these woman acting out like some do. Wives gone wild. No joke. Maybe they are in open relationships. That is possible.
> 
> You do know that no one can force a woman to get drunk. You do know that none of us have to succumb to peer pressure even in a work team building environment. You do know that often enough the side agenda of this stuff is to break down the barriers of the female coworkers so some of the men can get into their pants? You do know this.
> 
> Also just being told something is a team building exercise does not make it so. For sure anytime I go out with my cowrokers it is team building. It is team building when the married guys go to the VIP room. It is team building when a coworker takes a married woman out to the parking lot for a while.
> It is team building when a guy feels up a married woman right there in the bar and they are making out.
> 
> It is a game. A way of masking what is really going on. Spin. I am not saying everyone involved is banging everyone else. However a woman who allows herself to get drunk in these cases is called .... prey. A married guy who sits there while a married or single woman straddles him is not doing a legitimate team building exercise.


Are you sure you weren't at a Swingers convention ? Yuck , this country is going down. No Morals!!:scratchhead:


----------



## Machiavelli

lovesux said:


> Are you sure you weren't at a Swingers convention ? Yuck , this country is going down. No Morals!!:scratchhead:


I used to work at a swinger's convention. They called it the Federal Govt.


----------



## JMGrey

J4736 said:


> "I should add our sex life has been completely normal the whole time."
> 
> Ok, that is the part I have a very hard time understanding. Could someone please explain how someone in an affair can still have sex with their betrayed spouse? Is it also common for a WS to tell her BH that she loves him? Sorry, but the reason I ask is I've been going through a similar situation and often wonder if I'm in the same boat. Is it possible for the behavior of the WS to seem "normal" even though their involved in an affair?
> 
> Thx...


With regard to WWs, it's _the_ yardstick by which you can measure the depth of their betrayal once everything comes to light. The first time, when the WW is struggling with the transference of emotional fidelity, from her husband to the OM, she'll generally withdraw the physical aspect of the marriage as well; they subconsciously view themselves as being married to the OM. More experienced WWs don't bother deluding themselves that the serial infidelities are about finding their true soulmate, or correcting the gross miscarriage of karma being shackled to someone that wasn't their destiny rolleyes. Such a WW has accepted that it is and always was about her gratification. Love, honor, obligation and principle be damned.


----------



## MattMatt

Yep. It was "Just Kissing" like a shoplifter who really has no clue how the stolen goods got into their bag.

However, things might be fixable with honesty and counselling.


----------



## Machiavelli

J4736 said:


> "I should add our sex life has been completely normal the whole time."
> 
> Ok, that is the part I have a very hard time understanding. Could someone please explain how someone in an affair can still have sex with their betrayed spouse? Is it also common for a WS to tell her BH that she loves him? Sorry, but the reason I ask is I've been going through a similar situation and often wonder if I'm in the same boat. Is it possible for the behavior of the WS to seem "normal" even though their involved in an affair?
> 
> Thx...


In the case of women who cheat with premeditation, they make a decision that they need the adventure outside of the marriage with absolutely no intention of divorce. If you look at WW's blogs or forums, this is common. These women continue to use the BH to fulfill their "nesting" and "lovemaking" needs while they have other guys that they perceive as hotter in some way to f*** the s*** out of them. Hey, it's the best of both worlds.

On the other hand, women who go down the slippery slope without cold blooded premeditation, turn off to the BH once the fvcking starts and eventually give him the ILYBINILWY speech and the war begins.

IMHO, if the sex keeps on during the A with no distancing on the part of WW you're dealing with a premeditated or otherwise repeat offender.


----------



## Entropy3000

lovesux said:


> Are you sure you weren't at a Swingers convention ? Yuck , this country is going down. No Morals!!:scratchhead:


This is what some company cultures are.

I have been in various companies. But there is a trend towards these types over the years.

My point is for people to stop being so naive.


----------



## Acabado

Machiavelli said:


> In the case of women who cheat with premeditation, they make a decision that they need the adventure outside of the marriage with absolutely no intention of divorce. If you look at WW's blogs or forums, this is common. These women continue to use the BH to fulfill their "nesting" and "lovemaking" needs while they have other guys that they perceive as hotter in some way to f*** the s*** out of them. Hey, it's the best of both worlds.
> 
> On the other hand, women who go down the slippery slope without cold blooded premeditation, turn off to the BH once the fvcking starts and eventually give him the ILYBINILWY speech and the war begins.
> 
> IMHO, if the sex keeps on during the A with no distancing on the part of WW you're dealing with a premeditated or otherwise repeat offender.


:iagree:

Many rationalize the cake eating lifestyle with the old "it actually makes the marriage better" line of thinking.


----------



## Machiavelli

Entropy3000 said:


> This is what some company cultures are.
> 
> I have been in various companies. But there is a trend towards these types over the years.
> 
> My point is for people to stop being so naive.


Exactly. And it starts at the top. A company is like a fish. It rots from the head.


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## CleanJerkSnatch

That is disgusting. I am sorry but your wife seems to have been screwing the OM and then giving you sloppy seconds.....

Her friend only exacerbated her situation. These women are toxic, they are both cheaters. 

I suggest what has already been proposed.

Blackmail the women and end up exposing her anyway.

Tell her you have all the evidence you need to expose her to her husband, with details, names and locations. If she ever leaks anything that you even spoke with her about that, to your wife, you will automatically expose. Tell her your only motive is to spill the beans on your wife.

Cheats are scum, and they usually rat each other out with a little pressure. Don't tell them how you got your info, how much you have, let them assume you know it all, even a private investigator if you will, photos, conversations, etc.


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## Hope1964

Can I just say that I am SO freaking glad that my husband refuses to go to team building excursions with his work where spouses are not allowed!!!!!!!!!

What really pricks my balloon is how people tell me I am a controlling ***** by not 'letting' him go.  

OP, I am so sorry you find yourself here, but I agree that she screwed him. Knowing that, what do you want to do?


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch

Hope1964 said:


> Can I just say that I am SO freaking glad that my husband refuses to go to team building excursions with his work where spouses are not allowed!!!!!!!!!
> 
> What really pricks my balloon is how people tell me I am a controlling ***** by not 'letting' him go.
> 
> OP, I am so sorry you find yourself here, but I agree that she screwed him. Knowing that, what do you want to do?


I think your husband would find himself happy that you do not let him go because it is what pleases you. Sigh, is that not enough for him? Doesn't sound controlling to me, unless you start dictating when he can use the restroom or not then maybe you are pushing it....:scratchhead:


----------



## PaulD

Update:

She has agreed in full to a polygraph. I'm trying to arrange one now. She also agrees to forfeit everything if she fails. Basically the house, cars and kids.

I extorted the friend. Told her I knew everything. I was going to tell her husband if she didn't tell me the truth. I also had my wife text the friend and tell her to tell me everything. I watched her write and send the text. The friend said it was only kissing.

About the team building. My wife works for a large retail company. All levels of managment were present at the gathering. I believe the feelings may have started here but I do not believe anything happened on this occasion. She was always supposed to get a ride home from someone who was sober. You may feel like I'm not listening to you guys but I've read all your posts 4-5 times. In order for my wife to have sex with this man, it would HAVE to be at work. I literally know where she is 24/7. Girls night outs only happen once every 6 months or so, and we always have company at our house on weekends for drinks. Most of her shifts are 9am-6pm. Impossible these days. But she did close the store once per week. 2 managers and 15 or so employees are all present at the store during close. 

She is not making excuses, but, she has told me the reason it happened is because she wasn't sure she wanted to be with me anymore. I am very controlling towards her about money, friends she hangs out with, her family. I'm not the best husband in the world. I know this. I've only been trying the last 6 months. I wouldn't even buy a card for our anniversary. She said the reason she decided to stop was because it wasn't making her feel better. It wasnt changing anything in our lives.

For the sex part, and this is not bragging, we have sex 4-5/week. I am not lying. I have no reason to lie. This has never changed. It is not just bam and done. This is full on foreplay, passionate kissing, always gives me oral. The sex is very passionate and emotional. All of our friends have envy.

I've had a somewhat emotional relationship with another women I worked with. I was 24 and she was 35. She e-mailed many comments about sex and implied she wanted to have sex with me. This carried on for some time, until I felt guilty enough to stop it. Nothing happened though, just a young kid getting attention from another woman.

At this point I am still undecided about what to do. We have children and if she passes the poly it might be worth it. Any thoughts on this?


----------



## Hope1964

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> I think your husband would find himself happy that you do not let him go because it is what pleases you. Sigh, is that not enough for him? Doesn't sound controlling to me, unless you start dictating when he can use the restroom or not then maybe you are pushing it....:scratchhead:


Thing is, it's HIM that doesn't want to go. I am not telling him what to do at all - he's doing the right thing all on his own :smthumbup: 

OP, Be prepared for her to break down in the parking lot on the way in to get it done.

Sorry, maybe I am jaded by what I read on here, but the chances she never had PIV sex is about a quadzillion trillion to one.


----------



## LetDownNTX

The only thought I have at the moment is that it doesnt really matter that she works 9-6, adultery isnt committed in a certain time frame.

My husband worked 8-5 and managed to have a full on PA and still manage to get home by 6pm and spend the rest of the night with me.

Good luck!


----------



## Entropy3000

Note to self -- Do not tell wife it is ok to get drunk at a work function and to catch a ride home from someone.

I suggest that the wingwoman is a pro at this stuff and that they both will cover each other to the grave.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

I think it is unanimous in here that she had been having sex with the man and not just once. After all, she had his penis in the palm of her hand. So, as an adult ... how many kissing sessions do you have before you have sex ... 1, 2, rarely 3 ... NEVER 10. She wasn't trying to find out if this was the right guy for her before she went further, she is already married ... so let me repeat NEVER. It is almost an insult to your intelligence that she thinks you will buy this. You know the answer ... she hasn't come out with the whole truth. Trickle truth. She can't have true remorse unless she comes clean. She cannot have any more contact with this man, even if she has ended the affair.

She needs to experience consequences in order for to understand what she has done. If you want to reconcile, great ... there are kids involved ... but I would suggest you force her out of the house for a little while. Make it clear to her that this is unacceptable and she has risked losing her marriage. I don't think this can be accomplished with words alone, it must be accompanied by action.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Entropy3000 said:


> Note to self -- Do not tell wife it is ok to get drunk at a work function and to catch a ride home from someone.
> 
> I suggest that the wingwoman is a pro at this stuff and that they both will cover each other to the grave.


I'm so glad my wife doesn't drink. 

I would never tell my wife it is ok to get drunk at a work function ... but if she did, she is not to catch a ride, I will come and get her.

Her friend is toxic to this marriage.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Sigh...


----------



## Entropy3000

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I'm so glad my wife doesn't drink.
> 
> I would never tell my wife it is ok to get drunk at a work function ... but if she did, she is not to catch a ride, I will come and get her.
> 
> Her friend is toxic to this marriage.


Yes. My thoughts exactly.


----------



## Chaparral

What ever you do, go through with the polygraph. This could be a bluff. Not to be paranoid, but they could have worked up these stories before hand. How nervous did the bff act?

As far as working on your marriage. Read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER.

For you and her to read: HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS, LOVE BUSTERS, NOT JUST FRIENDS

Download MMSLP now it will make thinks clear that you have been missing. It is NOT a sex manual.


----------



## Machiavelli

PaulD said:


> Update:
> 
> She has agreed in full to a polygraph. I'm trying to arrange one now. She also agrees to forfeit everything if she fails. Basically the house, cars and kids.


Have lawyer draw up that agreement for her to sign. In some jurisdictions, they couldn't care less about this type of agreement; they're going to split things by the state formula.



PaulD said:


> I extorted the friend. Told her I knew everything. I was going to tell her husband if she didn't tell me the truth. I also had my wife text the friend and tell her to tell me everything. I watched her write and send the text. *The friend said it was only kissing.*


Riiight.



PaulD said:


> About the team building. My wife works for a large retail company. All levels of managment were present at the gathering. I believe the feelings may have started here but I do not believe anything happened on this occasion. She was always supposed to get a ride home from someone who was sober. You may feel like I'm not listening to you guys but I've read all your posts 4-5 times*. In order for my wife to have sex with this man, it would HAVE to be at work.*


That doesn't plug any holes. My old bosses boss used to do my former secretary (who was a 9 ISYN and married to an architect) over his desk behind a closed office door. I interrupted my own boss and a married coworker getting rearranged post-coitally in a store room on a vacant floor of the building. She turned up dead not long afterward via a boating "accident" with her BH. We had a number of people utilizing offices, broom closets, road trips, hotels during the day at lunch and during conferences, etc. People get very resourceful when illicit sex, which is to say the very best sex possible, is on the line.



PaulD said:


> She is not making excuses, but, she has told me the reason it happened is because she wasn't sure she wanted to be with me anymore.


So, she admits it was premeditated, which explains the no drop off in sex, etc. She made a conscious decision to do it.



PaulD said:


> I am very controlling towards her about money, friends she hangs out with, her family. I'm not the best husband in the world. I know this. I've only been trying the last 6 months. I wouldn't even buy a card for our anniversary. She said the reason she decided to stop was because it wasn't making her feel better. It wasnt changing anything in our lives.


Sounds like you were not controlling enough, to me. What kind of physical shape are you in? Do women hit on you? I ask, because most women like the man to take the lead in the family. Resentment indicates a drop in attraction.



PaulD said:


> For the sex part, and this is not bragging, we have sex 4-5/week. I am not lying. I have no reason to lie. This has never changed. It is not just bam and done. This is full on foreplay, passionate kissing, always gives me oral. The sex is very passionate and emotional. All of our friends have envy.


Well, whatever your wife won't do with you, she did with OM. Plus, you've got what sounds like a whole store full of cheaters, enablers, and toxic friends to help out if necessary. Affair sex is the hottest there is and it's usually pretty kinky.



PaulD said:


> I've had a somewhat emotional relationship with another women I worked with. I was 24 and she was 35. She e-mailed many comments about sex and implied she wanted to have sex with me. This carried on for some time, until I felt guilty enough to stop it. Nothing happened though, just a young kid getting attention from another woman.


I used to get that stuff everyday, but we didn't have email back then. It was pretty much face to face. How long ago was this when the woman was after you? Does your wife ever see other women checking you out? Did you tell her about this woman?




PaulD said:


> At this point I am still undecided about what to do. We have children and if she passes the poly it might be worth it. Any thoughts on this?


It's best for kids to come from an intact two biological parent household. no question, so long as both parents are on board. However, you've got to decide whether or not she's on board. 

We often recommend a book called "Married Man Sex Life Primer" to guys here, because the usual first sign of trouble is the wife withdrawing sexually. Since your wife is the premeditated (or experienced) type, your sex life never declined. I still think you should read the book and the guy's blog, because a lot of it applies to you. I first found out about cheating wife blogs, because so many of them followed this guy's old blog on blogspot.


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## The Middleman

Here are my thoughts on your situation:

You really need to get comfortable with the idea that this relationship didn't progress past kissing. Kissing is bad enough and she needs to "pay" for that, but I know that I could get past the kissing if it were my wife. For me a physical (sex) betrayal (especially unprotected) could not be reconciled with. I'd have to throw her out like the garbage that she is. Are you comfortable with what the slvt friend told you? Did that lying, cheating pig friend tell you the truth? Can you trust her as much as her stupid husband trusts her? Hold on to those texts so that if you find out that the slvt friend lied, you can destroy her marriage, if necessary.

Here are things to consider, assuming the affair didn't progress past kissing, in no particular order.

Have her explain what happened to her parents and your parents exactly what happened with you in the room.
Expose the affair to the rest of the family and friends (don't give a sh1t if she gets embarrassed)
Your wife looses the slvt friend
No further friendships allowed at work
No more Girls Nights Out ..... ever
Report this to her company's human resources and let them know that you will hold them responsible if they have any further interactions.
Put the ass hole OM on cheaterville.com
Have her write a No Contact letter to him stating that she will file harassment charges against him if he ever speaks with or approaches her again. You make sure you read it and it gets delivered.
She doesn't like the above? ... Show her the door.


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## keko

PaulD said:


> She also agrees to forfeit everything if she fails. Basically the house, cars and kids.


----------



## The Middleman

keko said:


> PaulD said:
> 
> 
> 
> She has agreed in full to a polygraph. I'm trying to arrange one now. She also agrees to forfeit everything if she fails. Basically the house, cars and kids.
Click to expand...

Yeah keko, I know what you mean ... like that is really going to happen.
PaulD, when the rubber meets the road, she won't live up to any of that. Cheaters lie, that's what they do.


----------



## JMGrey

PaulD said:


> She has agreed in full to a polygraph. I'm trying to arrange one now. She also agrees to forfeit everything if she fails. Basically the house, cars and kids.


Well, at least she had the decency to not swear on the kids' lives. That said, it means fvck-all legally, so she can say it without fear of consequence. The other guys have already said it: get that agreement in writing immediately. Then you'll have a leg to stand on. Not much of one but every little bit helps.


----------



## tom67

LetDownNTX said:


> The only thought I have at the moment is that it doesnt really matter that she works 9-6, adultery isnt committed in a certain time frame.
> 
> My husband worked 8-5 and managed to have a full on PA and still manage to get home by 6pm and spend the rest of the night with me.
> 
> Good luck!


Right a little afternoon delight. God 70's songs but I digress.


----------



## tom67

JMGrey said:


> Well, at least she had the decency to not swear on the kids' lives. That said, it means fvck-all legally, so she can say it without fear of consequence. The other guys have already said it: get that agreement in writing immediately. Then you'll have a leg to stand on. Not much of one but every little bit helps.


And get it notarized. Go to a bank or currency exchange for a notary it's basically a glorified witness.


----------



## Jonesey

Paul

Please listen to Machiavelli and Entropy..I really mean it..
I know what you must think especially what Mac writes.
I know it sound´s unbelievable,but it is not.. Trust me


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## Will_Kane

Paul,

Your wife has been lying to you for too long.

Many of the posters have made excellent points.

Before I go any further, I would like to point out that cheaters all follow a basic script. They all minimize and lie when first caught. They NEVER admit the truth right off the bat. Please look at the threads on this forum, go back years if you have to, and tell me if you can find a single one where the cheater admitted the full truth when initially confronted. You won't be able to find one, because they never do. You already know that your wife also did not tell you the entire truth when first confronted, did not admit even to "kissing."

I could give you other parts of the script that ALWAYS are followed by the cheaters. A "kiss" equals "sex," for example.

And when I say "NEVER" or "ALWAYS," I don't mean 100.00% of the time. I mean close to 100% of the time, like 99.8 or 99.9 percent of the time. Like one or two in a thousand is the exception to the rule. Do you think your wife is that exception?

Being that you have kids and your wife wants to reconcile, I think you should try. But you should do so knowing the truth.

1. She had sex with this guy. Closets. Lunch hours. Calling in sick, coming in late, leaving for home early, leaving during work hours for a doctor's appointment. There are many ways to cheat during the work day. "Penis in hand." Adults don't stop at kissing.

NOTE ON "KISSING": Please read the other threads on this forum. "Kissing" means "sex" very close to 100% of the time. Unless you see a text from your wife to her friend or other man saying "I can't wait until we have sex for the first time" or something to that effect, assume they had sex.

QUESTION: If 2 managers and 15 employees close up, how did your wife and other man "kiss" so many times?

2. The lying after cheating, the "trickle truth" of admitting a little at a time, is often more damaging than the affair itself. Your wife had no intention of telling you about this. Now she is telling you just enough for the story to make a tiny bit of sense. When the story makes sense, and is believable, then you will know you have somewhere close to the truth. The problem with most betrayed spouses is that they are either so shell-shocked, so used to lies, so used to living in denial, or have so little self-esteem, that they are unable to tell when a story makes sense. What makes sense is that your wife had sex with this guy about a dozen times, at least. So much so that she got sick of it and broke it off.

3. Your wife is perfectly OK with cheating. Her good friend is and has been a cheater. Your wife is their to lend an ear and offer advice. They have a BOND. They are BEST FRIENDS and tell each other EVERYTHING. You are ONLY her HUSBAND, she does NOT tell you everything, or anywhere close to everything. Your wife's friend is in the position you SHOULD be in. Your wife's friend is NO GOOD for your MARRIAGE.

4. Your wife broke off the affair.

5. Your story sounds like everyone else's story on here.

6. Cheaters are liars. They tell lies to cover up their affair, then they tell lies after they are caught, sometimes they tell lies to continue the affair after caught. Assume ALL OF YOUR WIFE'S WORDS ARE LIES - BELIEVE ONLY HER ACTIONS. Don't believe what she says unless it is backed up by verifiable evidence or her actions. (Your wife's friend is a cheater, also, so don't believe her WORDS, either.)

7. IF YOU WANT THE TRUTH: Secure a voice-activated recorder under the seat of your wife's car with some heavy-duty velcro. You will catch your wife talking to the other man or her friend about what really happened, probably within a few days.


----------



## Will_Kane

Plan for a reconciliation attempt:

1. VAR in car, GPS too if you can. If you catch her in a lie, you save yourself a lot of wasted time and heartache trying to reconcile. If you don't, you rebuild your trust a little. I don't see a downside to this.

2. She quits the job immediately. Your marriage will survive a financial hardship, but it won't survive a renewed affair or the mistrust that working with other man will cause.

3. She agrees to have no contact with other man ever again. If he calls or texts, she doesn't answer or respond, and she tells you about it immediately.

3a. She also breaks off all contact with her toxic friend or friends. Anyone who knew of her cheating and did not at least discourage it, should be gone forever. They are not friends of your marriage. If it were me, I wouldn't reconcile unless all who knew of it and didn't tell me were gone for good.

4. She handwrites a "no contact" letter to the other man. It contains no terms of endearment, it begins with "To" and his name, it says "I am horribly ashamed at my behavior and I feel terrible for having risked losing my husband, who means more to me than anyone in the world. I must have been temporarily insane to have taken up with you, you cannot hold a candle to my husband in any way and I am disgusted thinking about you. If you ever try to contact me again, I will file harassment charges against you both with human resources and the police." It ends, "signed" and your wife's name. She gives it to you to read over and then mail to the other man, mail it certified to his house and also to his work and keep one copy for yourself. It isn't done by text or email and you get to see the content and mail it yourself.

5. She gives up all passwords to the phone, email, Facebook; there is no more secrecy. Privacy is for the bathroom, everything else is secrecy, and there is no place for secrecy in marriage. Also, she deletes nothing. If anything needs to be deleted, she asks you to do it. She blocks other man on Facebook and on her phone. I suggest having her take down her Facebook account and changing her phone number and email address. She lets you know where she is 24/7. She answers immediately when you call. You check as much as you need to in order to rebuild trust. As time passes, and your trust rebuilds, you will feel the need to do this less and less.

6. She gets tested for STDs and gives you the results.

7. Definitely you follow through on the polygraph.

8. Tell your wife you love her, but that you are not willing to tolerate her unfaithfulness. Tell her you want to make your marriage better, but you have zero tolerance for any more cheating or lies. Tell her you will work to improve yourself and your marriage, but you are ready to walk away if you ever catch her lying to you or cheating on you again.

9. Expose the affair to other man's wife/family/friends. Don't tell your wife you are doing this, just do it without telling her.

I don't think these are onerous stipulations to reconcile. Many married couples share their emails and phones and Facebooks and think nothing of it, because they have nothing to hide.

The no contact letter, quitting the job, the STD test, the polygraph - these are one-time things that your wife has to do to help you believe her that she really wants you, that it really is over, and to rebuild your trust. She has lied to you and broken your trust. She has done so for months. The amount of time and effort it takes to do these things for you are small in relation to how much time she has spent cheating on you. If she really wants to reconcile, she will be glad to do all of these if it means you give her another chance and don't immediately divorce her.


----------



## warlock07

One thing I will mention si that notice instincts were not wrong. You were paranoid for a reason, even if you had no proof back then. You must have felt terrible and guilty all this while for suspecting your wife. So as terrible as it is to find out, learn to trust your gut in matters as this. 

The affair is probably going on for a lot longer than what she told you


What is your deal breaker? Prepare yourself. The worst is not out there yet.


----------



## warlock07

One more thing, maybe she was was ashamed enough not to tell her friend that they had sex.

Out her friend anyway.


----------



## warlock07

> About the team building. My wife works for a large retail company. All levels of managment were present at the gathering. I believe the feelings may have started here but I do not believe anything happened on this occasion. She was always supposed to get a ride home from someone who was sober. You may feel like I'm not listening to you guys but I've read all your posts 4-5 times. In order for my wife to have sex with this man, it would HAVE to be at work.


he should read DevastatedDad's thread...He is now reconciling but his wife and the OM had sex exclusively at her work place.


----------



## weightlifter

You only get like 2 questions. Here's my suggestion.

Have her make a full timeline of events. Then make a questionnaire with a load of questions like did he grope you, sexting, nudity, affairs before this etc.
1). Did you have oral anal or vaginal sex with AAA?
2). Did you tell the truth on the questionnaire he had you fill out?

Keep us updated. The penis text... Be prepared is all I have to say.

1. She loses **** friend yesterday.
2. Out her friend now!!!!

If she passes the poly I think it is up to you if you reconcile. If its a pa... Still up to you but be prepared to watch your love die a slow strangled painful death. Best case is 2years of constant pain for you.

Btw I work at a store at night. Sex happens all the time. My last mgr banged ???? Young women in his office. He's a player of sorts. One office in the back they just reno'ed... Has quite a reputation.


----------



## walkonmars

What are the odds that, just like jr hi kids, they only "kissed about 10 times".

Like anyone who has read that old saw on these boards will tell you - it's a classic. Two adults drunk as a skunk and having the willpower to just make out a lil bit. The ONLY thing she left out of this well worn classic was to "swear on the kids lives". Because that's usually the surest sign.

How is it she was comfortable practically high-fiving & discussing her boyfriend with another cheater? 

And that tale she told you about the reason she started is pure 100% malarky. If what she said were actually true, you would not have been having your "normal" sex bouts at home. If she were truly conflicted about the state of your marriage she would have changed. But she didn't. 

Research the polygrapher. Ask him if you will be able to observe the proceedings unobtrusively. Be sure the polygrapher has references and a brick and mortar office. 

Before you polygraph, ask her to write a detailed account of all "10" episodes. Where, how, how long. Who else knew, who supported. Get it in writing and share it with the polygrapher to better formulate the three or four cogent questions. 

Be prepared to hear her reasons why she didn't fail when the exam shows a "50% likelihood of deception". 

If she passes she quits her job, drops all toxic friends, and strong-arms the other cheater into confessingvto her husband and exposing her boyfriend.


----------



## MattMatt

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I think it is unanimous in here that she had been having sex with the man and not just once. *After all, she had her penis in the palm of her hand. * So, as an adult ... how many kissing sessions do you have before you have sex ... 1, 2, rarely 3 ... NEVER 10. She wasn't trying to find out if this was the right guy for her before she went further, she is already married ... so let me repeat NEVER. It is almost an insult to your intelligence that she thinks you will buy this. You know the answer ... she hasn't come out with the whole truth. Trickle truth. She can't have true remorse unless she comes clean. She cannot have any more contact with this man, even if she has ended the affair.
> 
> She needs to experience consequences in order for to understand what she has done. If you want to reconcile, great ... there are kids involved ... but I would suggest you force her out of the house for a little while. Make it clear to her that this is unacceptable and she has risked losing her marriage. I don't think this can be accomplished with words alone, it must be accompanied by action.


That might, conceivably, have been a figure of speech, a metaphor, rather than an actual deed.


----------



## Remains

MattMatt said:


> That might, conceivably, have been a figure of speech, a metaphor, rather than an actual deed.


I reckoned that too.


----------



## Acabado

She will recant on the poly... of she will start the classic parking lot confession, giving you crumbs to make you cool off.


----------



## Entropy3000

If she takes her chances with the poly and fails then she is hard core. Meaning she is not new to the cheating scene.


----------



## Asian

Hi, I went through what you're going through right now.it's though I know... Feels like nothing is worse I know.... You're not alone.
My lovely looking 31 year old wife was having a heated affair with 21 year old boy from her work, started with cute text exchange and a month later she was visiting him at his house while I was busting my behind supporting three kids and a confused wife. She lied every way she can to hide her affair but I knew something was up from my gut feelings. One night she supposedly went out with a girl from work but came home drunk straight to bed, tried to kiss her but she was pushing me away... Next morning she got up and jumped in the shower right away... Without her knowing I checked her underwear she had it on and noticed it was very dirty than usual... White and crusty.... Not sure it was just from her fluid or OM's mixed at the time. Soon later I purchased a GPS and found she was visiting OM frequently and confronted her. She lied that it was never physical but found that lie from went through her text and email and agin confronted and she came clean it was hot steamy sex involved. I could hate her but gave her a choice with a restriction and she is with me today and much happier than before. So I'm saying jus because your wife had sex with OM it's not the end!!! Find out what you really want in ur life! Will-Kane is right! Unfortunately sex is hoter when it's on the edge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

walkonmars said:


> What are the odds that, just like jr hi kids, they only "kissed about 10 times".
> 
> Like anyone who has read that old saw on these boards will tell you - it's a classic. Two adults drunk as a skunk and having the willpower to just make out a lil bit. The ONLY thing she left out of this well worn classic was to "swear on the kids lives". Because that's usually the surest sign.
> 
> How is it she was comfortable practically high-fiving & discussing her boyfriend with another cheater?
> 
> And that tale she told you about the reason she started is pure 100% malarky. If what she said were actually true, you would not have been having your "normal" sex bouts at home. If she were truly conflicted about the state of your marriage she would have changed. But she didn't.
> 
> Research the polygrapher. Ask him if you will be able to observe the proceedings unobtrusively. Be sure the polygrapher has references and a brick and mortar office.
> 
> Before you polygraph, ask her to write a detailed account of all "10" episodes. Where, how, how long. Who else knew, who supported. Get it in writing and share it with the polygrapher to better formulate the three or four cogent questions.
> 
> Be prepared to hear her reasons why she didn't fail when the exam shows a "50% likelihood of deception".
> 
> If she passes she quits her job, drops all toxic friends, and strong-arms the other cheater into confessingvto her husband and exposing her boyfriend.


Good advice but when it actually comes time to do the polygraph, she will bail.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

MattMatt said:


> That might, conceivably, have been a figure of speech, a metaphor, rather than an actual deed.


lol ... no, I didn't think that it was referring to the actual deed ... I am certain that she wasn't speaking literally ... however, I find it hard to believe that particular "figure of speech" would have been used if she did not have sex with the man ... if it was just restricted to kissing or even just an EA. This sounds exactly like a conversation two friends would have who are fvcking other guys and both of them are in on it.


----------



## the guy

And yet she will get all dressed up tomarow and see the OM in all her glory.

Phuck that.........her choice Mac an Cheese until she finds a new gig or pack her crap and send her to OM place.

Ya this tough love crap is painful but with out consequences bad behavior continues!

Dude I'm sorry, but she either glues her self to your hip for a few months or rug sweep this b1tch and wait for the next go around?

Been there done that, you phucked until you set up some boundries and the consequences for crossing those boundries.

Sure it suckes to be labeled as controling, but your not the one that has validation issues or commitment issues, or daddy issues.

Dude your chick needs to go in and learn the tools to affair proof her marriage...she is jacked up and needs some help or this sh1t will happen again.


----------



## the guy

And ya, one more thing don't take that blame shifting crap she will lay on you...cuz this kind of sh1t is a choice.....a choice to bail and divorce your @ss or a choice to take the easy way out and decieves your @ss and lie throw her teeth to have you and her phuck toy!!!!!!!

Blamshifting is just her way to have her cake and eat it too!


----------



## the guy

Dude, chicks like confident guy, so never ever let your chick see you waiver in your disicions.
If your not sure about something then tell her you will answer her question at a later date.
Never her let her see you cry.
And if you ever begg for your marriage then give me your address so I can come over and beat you with a 2x4!.


----------



## jim123

You need o read some of the other threads, a lot of sex while at work or in a car. There is no way two adults only kiss 10 times.

You have to be strong. Do not play games. Tell her to leave. Tell her employer. Tell her bff she has a week to tell her husband.

Read the oher threads. Learn from the mistakes before you make them.


----------



## cantthinkstraight

Let's be clear here...

Do people cheat so they can kiss as many people as possible?

*No, they don't.*


----------



## Shaggy

She needs a new job. Tomorrow,

Do not accept one but of blame for her choosing to cheat. She is cheating because she chose to. Remember she has his penis in the palm of her hand.

Do the husband of her skank cheating friend a huge favor and out his cheating with to him. He deserves the chance to know what she is in reality, and don't fool yourself that she ok since she said she was going to quit. Cheaters lie, even to themselves. Please do the decent thing and expose. Besides she might just get passed enough at your wife, that she will tell you the real truth.

But first, have your wife give her notice tomorrow.


----------



## Tony55

PaulD said:


> I don`t know what to believe. What if it was more than just kissing. How can I ever find out. I even called the guy calmly and pleaded with him to tell me. He didn`t want to get involved.


Kissing isn't enough? What grownup pecks lips together with their hands behind their back? Think about that. (I've only read your first post by the way, that's all I needed to see to know what's going on.)

Where do the hands go when you 'just kiss' someone? The back? Butt? Breast?, Leg? Where?

Let me ask you this, if you were in the military, serving your country, any time between 2002 and now, you'd know there's a thing called 'the wire' (you're behind the wire, the bad guys are outside the wire), how far into the wire does the bad guy have to get before you feel the need to save your a$$? Can he stand in front of it (which would get you shot in Afghanistan), can he climb on the wire (which would get you shot in Afghanistan), can he come just inside the wire, (which would mean he fell inside after being shot in Afghanistan), or maybe he come visit you up close and personal while you're asleep (which means you'd transition from sleep to death in short order in Afghanistan).

A little too dramatic? Why, because I said death? You don't think your life, as you know it, isn't on the line?

This guy (who won't show his hands when you tell him you need to see his hands), got over the damned wire. He's smiling, he won, he killed your life, oh, but maybe it was only a kiss... ok.

You're in a crazy frame of mind right now, and it'll take time for your head to clear, and when the dust clears (which will be months, maybe a year or two), you'll know that the only way to handle this was to reject your wife completely, remove yourself from her life and if she wants you bad enough, she'll hunt you down and kiss you, or whatever it is she did with her little pu$$y friend who couldn't come clean.

Take the high road, project confidence, show no fear, don't negotiate, be the better person. Win.

T


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Paul do yourself a favor and stop trying to rationalize WHY this happened and why it is your fault. My stress level and sleeping problems nearly disappeared when I realized "her actions were not my fault."

I see the train of thought you are following because I did it myself.


----------



## PaulD

Hi everyone,

It's 3:30am and I have gotten some decent sleep since about 7pm. My wife went to her mothers for the night to confess to her about this. She took the kids with her, so I have been by myself.

I believe a lot of points need clarification.

- The password on the phone. When I confronted her on it, she gave me the password. I have her facebook password and password to her e-mails. It's possible she has a fake e-mail, but if she does, she doesn't use it on our home computer. I'm very good with computers and have looked for such signs.

- I've realized the best thing I can do is cool off for a little while. 

- She is more than willing to take the poly. I told her I'm going to make a list of questions. I gave her examples and she agreed. If she bails in the parking lot then we know the truth. But if she walks in and goes through with it, and passes, should I still have my doubts? She isnt a secret agent, and she isn't well versed in passing lie-detector tests.

- The friends she was texting with are two different friends. The second friend is the cheater. The first friend had suspicions that the guy had a think for my wife, and I suspect she told her friend she felt the same.

- I'm tired of snooping around. I'm emotionally drained. Setting up a gps, a voice activated things etc. All good ideas, but I'm just so tired. I feel like I can get satisfactory results from the poly. 

- Did they have sex? how many times? This is the question that is plagueing my very existence. My thoughts on this have gone back and forth atleast one hundred times. My wife is a gorgeous woman, but she is increibly insecure about her body. She is overweight and has never managed to lose the baby pounds. I've never had an issue with this as I have seen all the changes to her over the years and she is my wife. I've loved her regardless. So I really don't know how much of her body she would show. Def not her stomach area, or her legs, or even her butt. Thats the confusing part. We went on vacation in January and she is completely covered with a bathing suit. Nothing revealing at all.

- The OM is separated and still living with his wife. They are waiting to sell their home. I received the following text message from him yesterday:

Paul, I'm going to tell you not what you want to hear but what you need to hear. I know where your at right now. I've been down that road myself. Suspicion, mistrust, all that, and what I've learned is the harder we squeeze and the more we pressure the quicker they slip away from us. If you want to save your marriage, if you just listen to her and not simply press at her and look over her shoulder all the time. If you want to know what I really want, it's just for B(wife) to be happy. Is she emotionally compromised, yes, as was I. Were we there to lean on each other, yes. Is there more to it than that, no. Will I continue to care for her, absolutely. Do I want to get between you two, absolutely not. But she is someone I care for Paul and that's not going to change. I'll always be there for her. You are her husband and it's on you to take 50/50 responsibility for whatever is broke between you two. There are no innocent bystanders when it comes to relationships, they break down when both parties stop working at it. If I can offer anything to you, step back from the situation, reflect on your roll in the breakdown and then just talk to her, but be sure to listen too.

That was the message I received from him. I tried to text back but he wouldn't go any farther. It is very clear that my wife was trying to get something emotionally from this man, that apparently she wasn't getting from me. I hate this guy, but he offers some insight into the situation. Im not a shrink. I don't know how to read this message. I need some thoughts.


----------



## Remains

All the advice you have been given is really over the top and just too much. I mean, are they in your shoes? Do they know you? Your wife? I wish people would just settle down a bit. You are emotional and just getting hit with this crazy advice.

I suggest you just sit down and 'talk' with your wife. I suggest you will never get the truth and you just need to accept that, and that you and your wife just get on with your life and leave this horrible mess behind you. That seems to be the path you envisage.

I predict you will bitterly regret this path due to your wife facing no consequences. You, once your emotions have calmed will have the reality of your future set in which is a rollercoaster of wanting her, and mostly not wanting her and a complete uncertainty that will envelop you completely and make you paranoid and panic every time she leaves the house, every night out, every trip to work, every time you have any marriage issues, any problems at all and she will be weak and be susceptible to cheating again. And rightly so you should be paranoid. What has happened to make her never ever want to put you through that again? Nothing! 



_ All my suspicions were true. I wasn't crazy like I thought. We discussed all night, and basically, she admitted * she had a small crush on him * , but that only stems from the fact the she felt he was into her. * She swore on everything important to her * that this was it. Just a harmless crush and that she would do everything to separate herself from the situation. I had no choice to accept. _

_ "I woke her. Long story short she admitted to cheating. * She said it was just kissing * , and it would happen at work when they closed together. * She said it happened less than 10 times * and has been happening since mid December. I should add our sex life has been completely normal the whole time." _

*  "I don`t know what to believe. What if it was more than just kissing. How can I ever find out. * 

OR, you could hit her with the 2X4 that she needs in order to get the truth and fix your marriage. Without that 2X4 you will not have a good result I promise you. 

Highlighted above, do you really believe her? She is only telling you as much as she needs to and nothing more. And yes, there is a way to find out.

The only way forward for you, to get what you need from her and for a stronger marriage, is to follow all the advice you are receiving that is of consensus. Adjust it to fit you, take what you see as working and leave the rest (though I don't see much that is for leaving to be honest. It is all good advice, all relevant), but essentially, you must follow it. It may sound aggressive, it is. It is because it has to be. When someone does something so heinous to the person they are supposed to love while forsaking all others, it needs real consequences. You water down your reactions and consequences and you will have 'weak marriage' as your result. You deal with this decisively, especially so early on, you will minimise your own pain and you will get the best result. And if she wants the marriage, the strong reactions and consequences will build a strong marriage. I promise you.

Every person may be different but every script is the same. Your wife's is the cheater script. Yours is the betrayed, but yours is the weak and confused version. And I am afraid that this one that you are holding is probably the most common. It is what I held also. I am 1 yr 7 month post DD, I am still wavering, still panic, still unsure. There is still room for improvement in his helpfulness, but he is pretty spot on now...eventually. 

Why drag it out like that? So stupid. I wish I had this place at the beginning and knew then what I know now.

Strong consequences. You throw her out and file for divorce = if she doesn't want you then you move on quicker. If she does want you then she will come and offer all you want and need in order to save the marriage. 

She does this because she WANTS to because she WANTS the marriage. This is the point at which you can put down your demands and she will happily agree to them. No more girls nights out, no more drinking or getting drunk, ever. It already makes you uncomfortable when she is drunk as she flirts, and yet it seems you never addressed this or put your foot down. No partying unless it is by your side. And so on. You choose the boundaries you need.

Threatening and starting the divorce process SHOWS HER that you will not tolerate anything but complete truth and honesty and you will not rebuild your marriage without it. 

She is NOT telling you all of the truth. I think you will know when there is truth and full remorse. She will give it all freely. She will want to give it. She will offer it without you demanding it.


*  I even called the guy calmly and pleaded with him to tell me. He didn`t want to get involved.  *

He already is involved. Tit! What an absolute tit! You were far too 'nice'. He did stuff with your wife! He is not allowed to say I don't want to get involved! 

Don't beg, plead. You handed the power of your relationship straight to him. A better way would be to meet him and threaten to break his kneecaps if he does not tell you what you need to know. Double effect of you get info you need, and he becomes scared of you and thinks twice about chasing/screwing your wife, and hopefully he thinks twice about the next wife he finds to screw.

If you are not aggressive it is best to leave him well alone. If you are aggressive, it is probably also best to leave well alone.






FOLLOW THE ADVICE YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN! It is extremely important that you do this. Extremely important you show her consequences. It is not just important. It is vital!


----------



## Remains

I was busy writing my response when you posted. And so I have not addressed it. And I don't have time to either, gotta get to work. But my post stands regardless, she needs consequences. I see you are giving her some, her willingness does also seem promising. Maybe she has given it you all. But yes, time will tell.

Firmness. Consequences. Then comes the Love. The Chat. The building of a stronger marriage with clear definitions and boundaries.


----------



## PaulD

Remains said:


> I was busy writing my response when you posted. And so I have not addressed it. And I don't have time to either, gotta get to work. But my post stands regardless, she needs consequences. I see you are giving her some, her willingness does also seem promising. Maybe she has given it you all. But yes, time will tell.
> 
> Firmness. Consequences. Then comes the Love. The Chat. The building of a stronger marriage with clear definitions and boundaries.


I appreciate your responses. It's strange that I feel powerless yet powerful at the same time. I have the ability to single handedly cost two people their jobs and to break up 2 other families. I don't want to do any of those things thruthfully. Everyone keeps telling me to out the other cheaters but I am on the fence. I suppose I would want to know if another guy were in my shoes and found out about me. However, I would prefer if the friend would chose to do so herself.


----------



## Jonesey

PaulD said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> It's 3:30am and I have gotten some decent sleep since about 7pm. My wife went to her mothers for the night to confess to her about this. She took the kids with her, so I have been by myself.
> 
> I believe a lot of points need clarification.
> 
> - The password on the phone. When I confronted her on it, she gave me the password. I have her facebook password and password to her e-mails. It's possible she has a fake e-mail, but if she does, she doesn't use it on our home computer. I'm very good with computers and have looked for such signs.
> 
> - I've realized the best thing I can do is cool off for a little while.
> 
> - She is more than willing to take the poly. I told her I'm going to make a list of questions. I gave her examples and she agreed. If she bails in the parking lot then we know the truth. But if she walks in and goes through with it, and passes, should I still have my doubts? She isnt a secret agent, and she isn't well versed in passing lie-detector tests.
> 
> - The friends she was texting with are two different friends. The second friend is the cheater. The first friend had suspicions that the guy had a think for my wife, and I suspect she told her friend she felt the same.
> 
> - I'm tired of snooping around. I'm emotionally drained. Setting up a gps, a voice activated things etc. All good ideas, but I'm just so tired. I feel like I can get satisfactory results from the poly.
> 
> - Did they have sex? how many times? This is the question that is plagueing my very existence. My thoughts on this have gone back and forth atleast one hundred times. My wife is a gorgeous woman, but she is increibly insecure about her body. She is overweight and has never managed to lose the baby pounds. I've never had an issue with this as I have seen all the changes to her over the years and she is my wife. I've loved her regardless. So I really don't know how much of her body she would show. Def not her stomach area, or her legs, or even her butt. Thats the confusing part. We went on vacation in January and she is completely covered with a bathing suit. Nothing revealing at all.
> 
> - The OM is separated and still living with his wife. They are waiting to sell their home. I* received the following text message from him yesterday:
> 
> Paul, I'm going to tell you not what you want to hear but what you need to hear. I know where your at right now. I've been down that road myself. Suspicion, mistrust, all that, and what I've learned is the harder we squeeze and the more we pressure the quicker they slip away from us. If you want to save your marriage, if you just listen to her and not simply press at her and look over her shoulder all the time. If you want to know what I really want, it's just for B(wife) to be happy. Is she emotionally compromised, yes, as was I. Were we there to lean on each other, yes. Is there more to it than that, no. Will I continue to care for her, absolutely. Do I want to get between you two, absolutely not. But she is someone I care for Paul and that's not going to change. I'll always be there for her. You are her husband and it's on you to take 50/50 responsibility for whatever is broke between you two. There are no innocent bystanders when it comes to relationships, they break down when both parties stop working at it. If I can offer anything to you, step back from the situation, reflect on your roll in the breakdown and then just talk to her, but be sure to listen too.
> *
> OK that´s it. Im fecking booking a flight .PM OM´s adress
> and i will fecking KICK HIS ASS THAT SMUG ****Y LITTLE ARROGANT POS :FIREdevil::FIREdevil:


----------



## Carlchurchill

I think you caught this early, at just kissing and that its the 1st time your wife has stepped out of the marriage.

Is it acceptable for a wife to have male friends?...YES, if they gay!

Is it acceptable for a another man to care about your wife?...NO, unless its her father, brother, or son!

Is it acceptable for your wife to kiss another man?...NO

This OM tells you that he will always care about your wife, and in the same breath he says he doesnt want to come between you and your wife!...Well guess what mother fcker, caring about and kissing my wife gets you right smack bang in the middle of us so quit your job and F off or I will go do what I have to to save my family. (you are crazy, irrational and could do anything, he should be very scared)


----------



## Jonesey

Carlchurchill said:


> I think you caught this early, at just kissing and that its the 1st time your wife has stepped out of the marriage.
> 
> Is it acceptable for a wife to have male friends?...YES, if they gay!
> 
> Is it acceptable for a another man to care about your wife?...NO, unless its her father, brother, or son!
> 
> Is it acceptable for your wife to kiss another man?...NO
> 
> This OM tells you that he will always care about your wife, and in the same breath he says he doesnt want to come between you and your wife!...Well guess what mother fcker, caring about and kissing my wife gets you right smack bang in the middle of us so quit your job and F off or I will go do what I have to to save my family. (you are crazy, irrational and could do anything, he should be very scared)


After careful consideration .I think you´r aproch i way better then mine..

But i still would not mind wipe the smirk of his face


----------



## Subi

Paul, I think you are going about this the wrong way. You need to cut off emotionally for you to regain control over this situation. You are only handling it half-heartedly. 

Stop feeling obliged to the OM and do what is right. It might feel difficult now but it is the only way you are going to kill this off once and all. He has some guts that OM. 

Do not enable him and cut him off your wife. You dont want to be finding yourself in this same place a few years down the road.


----------



## Carlchurchill

Paul, I know I gave your wife the benefit of the doubt of not having slept with him.

But, please do us all a favour and phone grannies house to make sure that she is there and didnt just drop off the kids!!!


----------



## PaulD

Carlchurchill said:


> Paul, I know I gave your wife the benefit of the doubt of not having slept with him.
> 
> But, please do us all a favour and phone grannies house to make sure that she is there and didnt just drop off the kids!!!


Just called. She's there.


----------



## walkonmars

What an entitled arrogant ass! Giving you marriage advice and telling you up front he will not back away. Telling you you better behave. 

Did he come to his conclusions on the basis of your earlier pleas to him or is it beacause either your wife or her toxic friend have urged him to join the fray.

Get that VAR going.


----------



## The Middleman

Paul: The time has come to have your wife quit this job immediately and to report this ass clown to his company's human resources and get him fired from job. The text from him is enough evidence to go to the company. What about your wife's no contact letter?

_*EDIT: You are also continuing to make mistakes and go against advice being given by those who have been through this already. One example: You let her go tell her mother this without you. What do you think the chances are she told her mother the truth or spun it to make you evil. Second: you refuse to out them at work and get them fired, especially the piece of sh1t OM. What are you waiting for? Third: You haven't outed the other cheaters. The reason for outing them (other than moral reasons) is to show your wife that you are serious about making everyone involved pay!

Paul, right now you are coming across as very weak and passive to me and I'm sure to your wife and the others as well. Weak and passive guys get cheated on and taken advantage of. I think you are showing her and everyone else that cheating on you has little to no consequences. I feel sorry for you.*_


----------



## spudster

Paul...

Get off your azz and start standing up for your marriage. 

Take the text he sent you and forward it to his company president with the request that his employees stop meddling with married women. 

The guy is a predator Paul. Take him out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## walkonmars

The arrogant pric has a lot of gall. He says he doesn't want to come between you. HE ALREADY IS. And he's assuming a dominant position. Telling you you better behave or else. 

This is no time to be tired - unless you just want to drift along. The current is strong and you're going against the flow - for now. He thinks he has the upper hand with nothing to lose. Don't contact him again unless it's with legal papers.

Think and act strategically.


----------



## joseph242

if you go through with the polygraph test be careful,do your homework,make sure the examiner has all the credentials.plan on it being pretty expensive 500-700 bucks.

i was in a similar situation had a mountain of evidence that she cheated but she "passed"the polygraph.i still don't buy it,pretty sure i got scammed for 500 bucks.

found the polygraph examiner on the internet (NYPOLYGRAPH.com)if you want to check it out.seemed to be legit,over 30 years experience,ect.he agreed to travel to our home to conduct the test.did "pre interview"with the both of us to formulate the questions.then i was asked to leave for actual test(standard procedure i guess).left house for 10-15 minutes max and got text to come back.

conclusion-she passed with flying colors!! you have nothing to worry about!! shes not the type.really?? thats it ? wheres the list of questions and answers that were asked? theres no way she was telling the truth about everything..thats a fact.

so what im saying to you is if your going to get a polygraph make sure you tell them what you want and whats expected you are paying them ALOT of cash so dont get scammed like i did.personally i think the whole polygraph thing is a scam anyways just a tool to try to get someone to admit the truth but the test itself is a farce in my opinion..good luck keep us posted


----------



## PaulD

The Middleman said:


> Paul: The time has come to have your wife quit this job immediately and to report this ass clown to his company's human resources and get him fired from job. The text from him is enough evidence to go to the company. What about your wife's no contact letter?
> 
> EDIT: You are also continuing to make mistakes and go against advice being given by those who have been through this already. One example: You let her go tell her mother this without you. What do you think the chances are she told her mother the truth or spun it to make you evil. Second: you refuse to out them at work and get them fired, especially the piece of sh1t OM. What are you waiting for. Third: You haven't outed the other cheaters. The reason for outing them (other than moral reasons) is. To show your wife that you are serious about making everyone involved pay!
> 
> Paul, right now you are coming across as very weak to me and I'm sure to your wife and the others as well. I think you are showing her and everyone else that cheating on you has little to no consequences. I feel sorry for you.


Trust me when I say the advice given to me so far is well taken. I can understand me coming off in a weak position. I feel weak, vulnerable, but I love my wife. We've been together since we were kids.

Regarding the other cheaters. I'm not understanding everyone's position on this. Their situation is irrelevant to mine. That's their demons to cope with. Should I make it my life long mission to expose cheaters. I don't have the time or the energy for that. I don't feel a need to ruin a family, it won't bring mine back. I'm sorry but I have to respectfully disagree on this one.

She for sure told her mother. I called this morning cause I wanted to see what arrangements my wife made to get the kids to school. Her mother answered the phone, and said she was sorry for me and couldnt imagine what I was going though. So she for sure knows.

There is no way I'm going to out my wife at work. I have kids. We are a two income family. Jobs are not easy to come by. At her work they have two shifts. She has requested opposite shifts. She has agreed to no contact.




Ok... more story. Before we got married I had a bachelor party of coarse. She is self concious about her body and requesting I wouldn't go to the strippers (this is 7 years ago) and I told her I would not. I promised. I ended up going and received a lap dance. Later that night, we all met up at a friends (like 3am) both the bachelor and bachelorette parties. I passed out, there was a piece of paper hanging out of my pocket. She grabbed it. A receipt from the strip club. This was incredibly painful. I had to admit what I did but left the lap dance out. She made me swear on everything. I did. I've been lieing about it for 7 years. I told her yesterday. I felt like we should air all of the dirty laundry. She was devastated which actually made me feel good. That she felt pain when I had felt it. I also made up a story about when we were back in the college. She was pregnant and I went out with the guys. I met a girl. We kissed, and went back to her house. I told her I thought we only kissed but I was drunk and anything could've happened. She made me swear on a deceased granparents. I did. She began to vomit. I let her carry out her hysterical crying for sometime then asked her how she felt. She couldn't speak. I told her eventually I made it up.

I also admitted to her that I had a pornography addiction. She had approached me several times and asked me to stop. It devasted her self confidence. I would stop for awhile then begin again. Eventually I matured a stopped watching it. Roughly 1 year ago. I admitted this to her as well.

I can bet my top dollar that all of you are shaking your heads at me right now. What a weak idiot. How dare he not take our advice. However, it felt really good to get those secrets off my chest. I've been hiding them along time. Not just because they hurt her but because they hurt me too.


----------



## The Middleman

PaulD said:


> Trust me when I say the advice given to me so far is well taken. I can understand me coming off in a weak position. I feel weak, vulnerable, but I love my wife. We've been together since we were kids.


OK, I get it, one of my brothers and his wife were together since middle school so I understand the relationship dynamics. Now I ask you to answer me with your head, not your heart ... do you really believe that all they did was kiss? Do you really believe that the polygraph, with all its flaws, will give you the peace of mind you need? The answers have to come from her. She needs to show real remorse and be truthful. She has to practically be groveling at your feet spitting out answers to questions you didn't even ask. And she has to feel some real pain (not physical naturally) over having done this.

Another thing to think about, what if you find out that it wasn't just a kiss. Don't let your heart make you a fool.



PaulD said:


> Regarding the other cheaters. I'm not understanding everyone's position on this. Their situation is irrelevant to mine. That's their demons to cope with. Should I make it my life long mission to expose cheaters. I don't have the time or the energy for that. I don't feel a need to ruin a family, it won't bring mine back. I'm sorry but I have to respectfully disagree on this one.


The point is not to have a mission to destroy all cheaters. The point is to show everyone involved in your wife's cheating that you are not to be fvcked with. The point is to make everyone of her slvt girlfriends pay for conspiring with her ... for encouraging her affair (his penis is in your hands). That is why you expose them, they need to fear you. Take this to the bank: they are phoning your wife right now trying to find ways to keep a lid on this and you. Trust me on this one (can others out there confirm this behavior?)



PaulD said:


> She for sure told her mother. I called this morning cause I wanted to see what arrangements my wife made to get the kids to school. Her mother answered the phone, and said she was sorry for me and couldn't imagine what I was going though. So she for sure knows.


OK, that's fine ... but the right thing would have been for you to be there so she could tell her mother in front of you. So you could hear what she was saying and how she said it ("Mom, it was just a kiss"). It is harder on your wife to do it in front of you, that's why you had to be there. Why weren't you there?



PaulD said:


> There is no way I'm going to out my wife at work. I have kids. We are a two income family. Jobs are not easy to come by. At her work they have two shifts. She has requested opposite shifts. She has agreed to no contact.


I get the two income thing and jobs are hard to find, but I also know that this is not over by a long shot. Even if it was just kisses, the OM already put you on notice that he is not going to back off. So ... what are you going to do about that. Putting them on different shifts? Like that is really going to do something? Sacrificing her job, and getting him fired is a price you are going to have to pay to try to save your marriage.

And the No Contact. Did she communicate this to him? How? Did you see or hear her contact with him? Why did he text you with such impunity and disrespect? I'll tell you why, he isn't afraid of what you would or could do to him. He wants your wife and I'll bet that your wife is still contacting him in one form or another, otherwise he wouldn't have sent you that text. Maybe I'm wrong but you are making mistake after mistake.

I've read at least 5 threads over the last few months where guys are taking your attitude about their wives and giving every reason in the world why they can't take the appropriate actions regarding their wives affairs. What happened? They come back saying "Boy you guys were right". They found out that either their wives were fvcking the OM or their wives ignored them and eventually wound up fvcking the OM. Do you want to join their club?

Edit: While what you did in your past was not cool, it pales in comparison to what your wife is doing. Don't be a SAP.


----------



## LetDownNTX

walkonmars said:


> The arrogant pric has a lot of gall. He says he doesn't want to come between you. HE ALREADY IS. And he's assuming a dominant position. Telling you you better behave or else.
> 
> This is no time to be tired - unless you just want to drift along. The current is strong and you're going against the flow - for now. He thinks he has the upper hand with nothing to lose. Don't contact him again unless it's with legal papers.
> 
> Think and act strategically.


AND...he's giving marital advice to YOU when he and his wife are separated...WTF!


----------



## Shaggy

Paul,

You do realize that after you chanted she ran right to the OM and enlisted his help to get you to back off and rugsweep the affair. 

She gave him your contact info.

She's not NC in any way with him.

His arrogant advice- 
1. the affair is your fault
2. Do what makes you WW happy
3. Don't spend time asking questions or watching what she's doing
4. Back off and accept the OM as your wife's special friend.


You say jobs are hard to come by, marriages are harder to gone by. His many jobs will you have in your life versus marriages?

Your wife will continue the affair if they work at the same place. The 
OM will approach her to "see his she's doing" and he will take advantage of every opportunity to worm his way in with her.

Understand that you are very much choosing her current job or your marriage. You cannot have both.

I know you don't want to believe that, because it means massive change and risk. You like to play it safe and smart. Trouble is your wife is already having an affair. The OM was who she turned to for help dealing with you. He said sure babe, I'll talk to H and set him straight.

Guess who at work she is going to be taking to about the false R she is going to be having?

Your fear of action to end this affair is going to cost your marriage. 

It's telling that you don't want to expose the cheating friend. You want to avoid conflict and action even with a person you owe nothing too. You opt for looking the other way, taking the smart way out.

Just remember your wife knows that you are that way too, and she will be using it to avoid consequences and avoid ending her affair. She desires the other guy. She trusts him more than she trusts you. She turns to him to help deal with you while she runs away to her mothers. Meanwhile the OM confronts her husband for her. He tells the husband to back off.

You can save this, but you can't do it by being safe and non confrontational.


----------



## Shaggy

Oh, and about the cheating friend.

Your wife must dump her. She's a cheater and obviously has been encouraging your wife to cheat too.


----------



## tom67

Shaggy said:


> Paul,
> 
> You do realize that after you chanted she ran right to the OM and enlisted his help to get you to back off and rugsweep the affair.
> 
> She gave him your contact info.
> 
> She's not NC in any way with him.
> 
> His arrogant advice-
> 1. the affair is your fault
> 2. Do what makes you WW happy
> 3. Don't spend time asking questions or watching what she's doing
> 4. Back off and accept the OM as your wife's special friend.
> 
> 
> You say jobs are hard to come by, marriages are harder to gone by. His many jobs will you have in your life versus marriages?
> 
> Your wife will continue the affair if they work at the same place. The
> OM will approach her to "see his she's doing" and he will take advantage of every opportunity to worm his way in with her.
> 
> Understand that you are very much choosing her current job or your marriage. You cannot have both.
> 
> I know you don't want to believe that, because it means massive change and risk. You like to play it safe and smart. Trouble is your wife is already having an affair. The OM was who she turned to for help dealing with you. He said sure babe, I'll talk to H and set him straight.
> 
> Guess who at work she is going to be taking to about the false R she is going to be having?
> 
> Your fear of action to end this affair is going to cost your marriage.
> 
> It's telling that you don't want to expose the cheating friend. You want to avoid conflict and action even with a person you owe nothing too. You opt for looking the other way, taking the smart way out.
> 
> Just remember your wife knows that you are that way too, and she will be using it to avoid consequences and avoid ending her affair. She desires the other guy. She trusts him more than she trusts you. She turns to him to help deal with you while she runs away to her mothers. Meanwhile the OM confronts her husband for her. He tells the husband to back off.
> 
> You can save this, but you can't do it by being safe and non confrontational.


All of the above and go to their HR and show them the text. Tell them you are keeping your legal options open. He will more than likely lose his job she may also but there is a price. If you do nothing the marriage is doomed, sorry.


----------



## PaulD

I get what you guys are saying.

She did not ask him to contact me. I sent a text to him asking what happened and he responded with what I posted. 

Regarding no contact, your right. How will I confirm this is true? Them not working at the same establishment... won't necessarily stop the contact. I'm going to need to be satisfied with what she does here.

She has been begging me to stay, to try, to go to counseling. She is ready to put up with everything I need to recover. However, she is scared that I will never get over it. That everytime she goes for groceries I will suspect her. That when she is running late from work I will interrogate her. 6 months from now, or 6 years from now. I can't answer those questions right now. It's possible I may try and R but realize it's not possible, fall out of love, waste my time. Tough roads ahead.


----------



## Ever-Man

joseph242 said:


> if you go through with the polygraph test be careful,do your homework,make sure the examiner has all the credentials.plan on it being pretty expensive 500-700 bucks.
> 
> i was in a similar situation had a mountain of evidence that she cheated but she "passed"the polygraph.i still don't buy it,pretty sure i got scammed for 500 bucks.
> 
> found the polygraph examiner on the internet (NYPOLYGRAPH.com)if you want to check it out.seemed to be legit,over 30 years experience,ect.he agreed to travel to our home to conduct the test.did "pre interview"with the both of us to formulate the questions.then i was asked to leave for actual test(standard procedure i guess).left house for 10-15 minutes max and got text to come back.
> 
> conclusion-she passed with flying colors!! you have nothing to worry about!! shes not the type.really?? thats it ? wheres the list of questions and answers that were asked? theres no way she was telling the truth about everything..thats a fact.
> 
> so what im saying to you is if your going to get a polygraph make sure you tell them what you want and whats expected you are paying them ALOT of cash so dont get scammed like i did.personally i think the whole polygraph thing is a scam anyways just a tool to try to get someone to admit the truth but the test itself is a farce in my opinion..good luck keep us posted


These are not trustworthy, and not worth the money, plus there is always the possibility that your wife paid off the poly-dude.


----------



## Shaggy

Of course she is worried. She's right to be. She began flirting and dating a guy at work.

I was thinking about when he dove her home. They didn't need to have sex that night, they were on a date in essence and not all dates end in sex. They do however fire up the desire level big time.. They went out together and had fun in a social situation. They flirted and gave each other lots of attention. He then was the protector and drove her safely home. I'm betting she came home feeling absolutely wonderful on the high of it all.

I'd et her home ASAP. She should be there working on the marriage. She should either quit or take a few days off and pull her resume together and start job hunting ASAP. Either way she needs out of there.

You won't know for sure if concat has ended, but her leaving will drastically cut the opportunity for contact.


----------



## Ever-Man

PaulD said:


> I get what you guys are saying.
> 
> She did not ask him to contact me. I sent a text to him asking what happened and he responded with what I posted.
> 
> Regarding no contact, your right. How will I confirm this is true? Them not working at the same establishment... won't necessarily stop the contact. I'm going to need to be satisfied with what she does here.
> 
> She has been begging me to stay, to try, to go to counseling. She is ready to put up with everything I need to recover. However, she is scared that I will never get over it. That everytime she goes for groceries I will suspect her. That when she is running late from work I will interrogate her. 6 months from now, or 6 years from now. I can't answer those questions right now. It's possible I may try and R but realize it's not possible, fall out of love, waste my time. Tough roads ahead.


Of course you will always suspect her, she is proven not trustworthy. That is one of the consequences of cheating. 

If you have kids, try the R, if not, it all depends on what your prospects are out there in the singles world versus what your wife has to offer. Look at her objectively, without any "love", is she worth all the effort?


----------



## Tony55

PaulD said:


> I received the following text message from him yesterday:
> 
> If you want to know what I really want, it's just for B(wife) to be happy.
> Will I continue to care for her, absolutely.
> But she is someone I care for Paul and that's not going to change.
> I'll always be there for her.
> 
> That was the message I received from him. I tried to text back but he wouldn't go any farther.
> 
> I hate this guy, but he offers some insight into the situation. I'm not a shrink. I don't know how to read this message. I need some thoughts.


Obviously your wife collaborated with him and encouraged this message sent to you. It was orchestrated by the enemy (yes enemy), when she meets with him she commits treason, she betrays the trust of the marriage with a known unfriendly.

Of course your wife is being played also.

While the general message was drafted jointly by he and your wife, *he knew that she would most likely see or be conveyed the actual message*, and took that opportunity shore up his position with her as a trusted confidant and lover (kissing lover, if you like). He was showing her, through you, that he's the strong reasonable, trusted one, the one she can depend on in the future, *he's playing you and her at the same time for his own net gain*.

He's a sly one. Of course he wouldn't go any farther, he knows anything else said will also be read by your wife and he doesn't want to dilute the original intent of the message, which is (to your wife),_ 'I am strong, I'm there for you, your husband is less than me, I must teach him, my feelings for you are absolute, that will never change, I will always be your special person'_.

Lol, you hate him, but he offers you insight, right... he offers you nothing! He backhanded you! To be backhanded means you're below him, it's something one did to a servant not long ago, it means you aren't at the same level as him, his message was a virtual backhand!

Don't send him anymore messages. Tell your wife he sent you a message confessing he was playing her all along and he's sorry for it. Tell her he said he was hurting over his marriage and used her and knew it was the wrong thing to do. Tell her he said she was an easy target because of her naivety, and he exploited it and that under different circumstances he wouldn't look twice at her. Tell her he insisted this was the real truth and to please, please believe him and to not make trouble for him at work and with his wife.

*Tell her that, then sit back and wait.*

T


----------



## Ever-Man

PaulD said:


> Trust me when I say the advice given to me so far is well taken. I can understand me coming off in a weak position. I feel weak, vulnerable, but I love my wife. We've been together since we were kids.
> 
> Regarding the other cheaters. I'm not understanding everyone's position on this. Their situation is irrelevant to mine. That's their demons to cope with. Should I make it my life long mission to expose cheaters. I don't have the time or the energy for that. I don't feel a need to ruin a family, it won't bring mine back. I'm sorry but I have to respectfully disagree on this one.
> 
> She for sure told her mother. I called this morning cause I wanted to see what arrangements my wife made to get the kids to school. Her mother answered the phone, and said she was sorry for me and couldnt imagine what I was going though. So she for sure knows.
> 
> There is no way I'm going to out my wife at work. I have kids. We are a two income family. Jobs are not easy to come by. At her work they have two shifts. She has requested opposite shifts. She has agreed to no contact.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok... more story. Before we got married I had a bachelor party of coarse. She is self concious about her body and requesting I wouldn't go to the strippers (this is 7 years ago) and I told her I would not. I promised. I ended up going and received a lap dance. Later that night, we all met up at a friends (like 3am) both the bachelor and bachelorette parties. I passed out, there was a piece of paper hanging out of my pocket. She grabbed it. A receipt from the strip club. This was incredibly painful. I had to admit what I did but left the lap dance out. She made me swear on everything. I did. I've been lieing about it for 7 years. I told her yesterday. I felt like we should air all of the dirty laundry. She was devastated which actually made me feel good. That she felt pain when I had felt it. I also made up a story about when we were back in the college. She was pregnant and I went out with the guys. I met a girl. We kissed, and went back to her house. I told her I thought we only kissed but I was drunk and anything could've happened. She made me swear on a deceased granparents. I did. She began to vomit. I let her carry out her hysterical crying for sometime then asked her how she felt. She couldn't speak. I told her eventually I made it up.
> 
> I also admitted to her that I had a pornography addiction. She had approached me several times and asked me to stop. It devasted her self confidence. I would stop for awhile then begin again. Eventually I matured a stopped watching it. Roughly 1 year ago. I admitted this to her as well.
> 
> I can bet my top dollar that all of you are shaking your heads at me right now. What a weak idiot. How dare he not take our advice. However, it felt really good to get those secrets off my chest. I've been hiding them along time. Not just because they hurt her but because they hurt me too.



Be very careful with a lot of the advice given on TAM, go at your own pace. There are posters on TAM that get very bent-out-of-shape if you do not follow their advice, and the collective begins to fill you with doubt about your actions, and egging you on to do something that may have drastic consequences. Read the Fred Milla thread, he came here looking to save his marriage and now he is on the fast road to divorce. 

Further, porno addiction? If you are skipping work to spend the day watching porn, if you don't touch your wife because you prefer porn, that is an addiction. You don't sound like that kind of guy.


----------



## pplwatching

PaulD said:


> She has agreed in full to a polygraph. I'm trying to arrange one now. She also agrees to forfeit everything if she fails. Basically the house, cars and kids.


I'd be really wary of this. It seems to me that all you achieve by insisting on a polygraph test is proving that you don't trust your spouse to tell you the truth, which seems to be clear enough without the test. The problem with polygraphs is that they don't tell you anything useful. Some people claim they're reliable, while others claim that they are not. Either way, they aren't perfect and you have no way of knowing if _your_ results are accurate. If you get a false positive, then she's unfairly condemned and gives up everything because of a bad test. If you get a false negative, then you mistakenly believe that your spouse is telling the truth. There is always the possibility that the test results are accurate, but you have no way of knowing. You already don't trust her, so what is going to make you any more willing to trust the results of the test?

IMHO the two of you would be better served to explore why trust has broken down in your marriage, and to find ways to rebuild the trust between you. 

Best to you both


----------



## The Middleman

Ever-Man said:


> Be very careful with a lot of the advice given on TAM, go at your own pace. .... Read the Fred Milla thread, he came here looking to save his marriage and now he is on the fast road to divorce.


Take action and you have the fast road to divorce, take no action and you're sleeping in someone else's creampie. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you are going to error, error on the side of your self respect.


----------



## AlphaHalf

As long as they work together you will never have peace. Extra income but no peace. Don't ever expect NC between the both of them. Your setting yourself up for failure. A WS will promise you the world while taking a EA/PA underground.


----------



## tom67

The Middleman said:


> Take action and you have the fast road to divorce, take no action and you're sleeping in someone else's creampie. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you are going to error, error on the side of your self respect.


We know this isn't your fault, this is not easy and you are going to have to make some tough decisions. You cannot nice her back to you. As far as going at your pace, jmo I think it's time to tell her to write a no contact letter and you hand it to him at his work place. Tell him you will go to hr if there is contact again. It would be better if she was looking for a job.


----------



## dogman

PaulD said:


> Update:
> 
> She has agreed in full to a polygraph. I'm trying to arrange one now. She also agrees to forfeit everything if she fails. Basically the house, cars and kids.
> 
> I extorted the friend. Told her I knew everything. I was going to tell her husband if she didn't tell me the truth. I also had my wife text the friend and tell her to tell me everything. I watched her write and send the text. The friend said it was only kissing.
> 
> About the team building. My wife works for a large retail company. All levels of managment were present at the gathering. I believe the feelings may have started here but I do not believe anything happened on this occasion. She was always supposed to get a ride home from someone who was sober. You may feel like I'm not listening to you guys but I've read all your posts 4-5 times. In order for my wife to have sex with this man, it would HAVE to be at work. I literally know where she is 24/7. Girls night outs only happen once every 6 months or so, and we always have company at our house on weekends for drinks. Most of her shifts are 9am-6pm. Impossible these days. But she did close the store once per week. 2 managers and 15 or so employees are all present at the store during close.
> 
> She is not making excuses, but, she has told me the reason it happened is because she wasn't sure she wanted to be with me anymore. I am very controlling towards her about money, friends she hangs out with, her family. I'm not the best husband in the world. I know this. I've only been trying the last 6 months. I wouldn't even buy a card for our anniversary. She said the reason she decided to stop was because it wasn't making her feel better. It wasnt changing anything in our lives.
> 
> For the sex part, and this is not bragging, we have sex 4-5/week. I am not lying. I have no reason to lie. This has never changed. It is not just bam and done. This is full on foreplay, passionate kissing, always gives me oral. The sex is very passionate and emotional. All of our friends have envy.
> 
> I've had a somewhat emotional relationship with another women I worked with. I was 24 and she was 35. She e-mailed many comments about sex and implied she wanted to have sex with me. This carried on for some time, until I felt guilty enough to stop it. Nothing happened though, just a young kid getting attention from another woman.
> 
> At this point I am still undecided about what to do. We have children and if she passes the poly it might be worth it. Any thoughts on this?



She's bluffing with the polygraph, I would.
Her friend was briefed and is helping With the cover story.
Just follow through with the poly. 

Oh yeah, check to see if she took any sick days in the last 2 months, I bet they coincide with the POSOM. Gee, I bet a lot can happen when you have 8 hours alone.

Sorry man, I just don't believe this isn't more than kissing. Even though that's bad enough with the deception.


----------



## tom67

dogman said:


> She's bluffing with the polygraph, I would.
> Her friend was briefed and is helping With the cover story.
> Just follow through with the poly.
> 
> Oh yeah, check to see if she took any sick days in the last 2 months, I bet they coincide with the POSOM. Gee, I bet a lot can happen when you have 8 hours alone.
> 
> Sorry man, I just don't believe this isn't more than kissing. Even though that's bad enough with the deception.


Good idea!:iagree:


----------



## badmemory

Ever-Man said:


> Read the Fred Milla thread, he came here looking to save his marriage and now he is on the fast road to divorce.


And that's the best outcome that could have happened for him. He may not save his marriage, but at least he's given it a small chance. 

Yes, there are times that posters get frustrated over BS's like yourself who don't take the "collective's" advice. That frustration is born from watching someone loose their marriage when it might have been prevented - all based on prior, hard earned, experience.

You won't get any better advice than here on TAM. What makes it so valuable is that most of it is not filtered. It's direct and honest. But at the end of the day, you have adapt that advice to your own situation. You know all the nuances and dynamics of your relationship that can't be described in a 1000 pages.

That said, based on everything you've described, here's my opinion. If you don't expose this affair completely and make her quit her job, you're making a mistake.


----------



## tom67

badmemory said:


> And that's the best outcome that could have happened for him. He may not save his marriage, but at least he's given it a small chance.
> 
> Yes, there are times that posters get frustrated over BS's like yourself who don't take the "collective's" advice. That frustration is born from watching someone loose their marriage when it might have been prevented - all based on prior, hard earned, experience.
> 
> You won't get any better advice than here on TAM. What makes it so valuable is that most of it is not filtered. It's direct and honest. But at the end of the day, you have adapt that advise to your own situation. You know all the nuances and dynamics of your relationship that can't be described in a 1000 pages.
> 
> That said, based on everything you've described, here's my opinion. If you don't expose this affair completely and make her quit her job, you're making a mistake.


Like it has been said here many times, you have to be willing to end the marriage in order to save it you will think I'm crazy at first but it goes in line with not nicing her back it just doesn't happen.


----------



## TBT

PaulD said:


> Will I continue to care for her, absolutely. Do I want to get between you two, absolutely not. But she is someone I care for Paul and that's not going to change. I'll always be there for her.


Imo,he's not saying he won't come between you,just that he doesn't want to...but he will whenever he judges it necessary because he cares for her.Pretty arrogant.He seems very confident that he's always going to be part of her life and that doesn't play with NC.


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## weightlifter

Paul you need the VAR thing at least. GPS maybe. Sorry you are tired.

Go thru with the poly... She does not have to know her agreement to forfeit everything is probably invalid. Stop the car in the parking lot and ask... ANYTHING ELSE? Once we go through that door you can NOT change your story and can be penniless in a flash. Be prepped for a change of heart.

Steel yourself. Get the poly done yesterday. Even you seem agreeable to that one.

Have we EVER had a true "just kissing" thread here?


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## The Middleman

weightlifter said:


> Have we EVER had a true "just kissing" thread here?


HA! :rofl:


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## Gabriel

Paul, three things here.

1) The OMs text to you is so similar to what my wife’s OM emailed me that it’s frightening. See what he did? He took it as another opportunity to elevate himself in her eyes. He wrote that to her as much as to you. Now she knows he’ll always care for her. Now she knows he’ll be waiting if you fvck up. There is ZERO apology, ZERO remorse. And notice how he blames you? He paints himself as your wife’s knight in shining armor. Makes me want to puke. Point this out to your wife. Tell her this guy is a weasel and takes no responsibility not only for his own marriage failing, but for ruining yours.

2) If you are open to reconciliation, I will say your wife really does seem to be doing right things. Take her up on the poly. Shift change is a start, but this should just be until she can find another job. Otherwise, you’ll always wonder if they are there together. Her crying and getting sick, etc, shows that she does care about her marriage. That’s a start. But more work has to be done.

3) Just an observation, but you do seem to be quite difficult. You admit to controlling her friends/money, etc. You even had your own indiscretions with women and formed your own lies. Also, making up that story which caused your wife to vomit was a pretty cruel thing to do. You seem to have a real edge to you. Maybe it’s time to look in the mirror and work on Paul for awhile. Let your wife work on herself and winning you back. That’s paramount. But you need to do some introspection yourself.


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## Jasel

You can't trust what the guy who is cheating with your wife tells you. He has absolutely no incentive to tell you the truth and every reason to lie. It sounds like everyone got their story straight. And she should start proactively looking for a new job. Different shifts isn't going to change anything.


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## CleanJerkSnatch

Shaggy said:


> Remember she has his penis in the palm of her hand.


Chop her hand off, she's holding something.


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## The Middleman

Gabriel said:


> Just an observation, but you do seem to be quite difficult. You admit to controlling her friends/money, etc.


If he's controlling her friends, he's clearly not doing a very good job with it, as evidenced by her slvt friends encouraging her to go after the other man's penis.


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## Entropy3000

PaulD said:


> I appreciate your responses. It's strange that I feel powerless yet powerful at the same time. I have the ability to single handedly cost two people their jobs and to break up 2 other families. I don't want to do any of those things thruthfully. Everyone keeps telling me to out the other cheaters but I am on the fence. I suppose I would want to know if another guy were in my shoes and found out about me. However, I would prefer if the friend would chose to do so herself.


If she has not quit her job you are messing up big time.

This is the most important and urgent step. Her going NC is THE thing you must have .... right now.


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## tom67

Entropy3000 said:


> If she has not quit her job you are messing up big time.
> 
> This is the most important and urgent step. Her going NC is THE thing you must have .... right now.


Sorry but it's the only shot you have.


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## Entropy3000

PaulD said:


> I get what you guys are saying.
> 
> She did not ask him to contact me. I sent a text to him asking what happened and he responded with what I posted.
> 
> Regarding no contact, your right. How will I confirm this is true? Them not working at the same establishment... won't necessarily stop the contact. I'm going to need to be satisfied with what she does here.
> 
> She has been begging me to stay, to try, to go to counseling. She is ready to put up with everything I need to recover. However, she is scared that I will never get over it. That everytime she goes for groceries I will suspect her. That when she is running late from work I will interrogate her. 6 months from now, or 6 years from now. I can't answer those questions right now. It's possible I may try and R but realize it's not possible, fall out of love, waste my time. Tough roads ahead.


Look dude. This guy is not your buddy. You are in essence asking the guy who is trying to bang your wife for help. This is very weak. It empowers him. You basically have told him, hey I am begging you to not take my wife from me. If he has not banged her yet he now has the green light. If he has he is just humliating you further. 

You commnunicating with him has just told him, hey keep going, I am clueless. Keep banging my wife. IF he has not taken her yet you have done nothing to slow him down.

He has no right to have a special relationship with your wife. He is basically telling you he can do things for your wife you cannot. The only reason to contact the OM would be to tell him you are going to harm him. Since that is not a good idea there is no reason to contact him.

Also expose to his wife. I do not care what you think their relationship is.

Also please stop the self blame. This only enables the affair. There is no excuse for your wife to have brought this man into your marriage. So knock that [email protected] off. This is getting into the I am a bad boy so I will put up with the hot wifing stuff.


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## phillybeffandswiss

> Paul, I'm going to tell you not what you want to hear but what you need to hear. I know where your at right now. I've been down that road myself. Suspicion, mistrust, all that, and what I've learned is the harder we squeeze and the more we pressure the quicker they slip away from us. If you want to save your marriage, if you just listen to her and not simply press at her and look over her shoulder all the time. If you want to know what I really want, it's just for B(wife) to be happy. Is she emotionally compromised, yes, as was I. Were we there to lean on each other, yes. Is there more to it than that, no. Will I continue to care for her, absolutely. Do I want to get between you two, absolutely not. But she is someone I care for Paul and that's not going to change. I'll always be there for her. You are her husband and it's on you to take 50/50 responsibility for whatever is broke between you two. There are no innocent bystanders when it comes to relationships, they break down when both parties stop working at it. If I can offer anything to you, step back from the situation, reflect on your roll in the breakdown and then just talk to her, but be sure to listen too.


Wow, if this isn't some blame shifting garbage. Remember, this is from the CHEATER perspective not the Betrayed Spouse. If a spouse feels you should share 50% of the blame when they get CAUGHT cheating, they are a PoS in my book.




Basically, he gave you his cake eating reasoning for why he and his wife are separated. He is venting that she made boundaries and he couldn't follow those rules. He also told you* he will not stop contacting your wife.* I'd send that message RIGHT TO HIS WIFE, signed with "this is what your husband told me concerning MY WIFE." 

Sorry, no fence sitting allowed on that B*[email protected]!%!^&T.


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## Entropy3000

PaulD said:


> Regarding no contact, your right. How will I confirm this is true? Them not working at the same establishment... won't necessarily stop the contact. I'm going to need to be satisfied with what she does here.


Ok so this makes me think you are not serious with this thread.

You allowig them contact working together is a green light for the affair. You are assuring the affair continues.

Also you are showing you have no understanding of affairs and brain chemicals. Affairs are an addiction. Letting an addict hang out with the drug dealer is not way to engage.

This it truly another display of weakness and being dominated by the OM. This is taking a very weird turn in terms of your behavior and you inability to do what needs to be done. This says to your wife, I am unable to stand up and act. I am afraid to get between you and your OM. I deserve to be cuckolded. The OM is more dominant and I a will alow him to have isolated access to you my wife.

I mean this is now in the open. He can just tell you, hey dude this woman deserves better than you and I had to take care of her needs. So back off. You do realize this is the guy she will move in with with your kids the way things are going. He is not just taking your wife he is going to have your children likely living with him. If you are lucky he will pump and dump.

Also if they are separating realize it is likely because he has been screwing around. He possibly has a number of jealous husband he is pals with.

Counseling is an awesome way to placate the BS while the affair goes on. It can help blame shift and in general buys time. There is no use for this counseling while she is still in the affair. her no being NC means she si still getting her fix daily. Trust me they laugh at how easy you are manipulated. But the real damage is that she continues to bind with him and you are being less and less attractive to her. Right now you help support the kids while she is free to have flinsg with other men. pretty sweet deal for her. Not her first rodeo it seems.


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## dogman

POSOM said...
Paul, I'm going to tell you not what you want to hear but what you need to hear. I know where your at right now. I've been down that road myself. Suspicion, mistrust, all that, and what I've learned is the harder we squeeze and the more we pressure the quicker they slip away from us. If you want to save your marriage, if you just listen to her and not simply press at her and look over her shoulder all the time. If you want to know what I really want, it's just for B(wife) to be happy. Is she emotionally compromised, yes, as was I. Were we there to lean on each other, yes. Is there more to it than that, no. Will I continue to care for her, absolutely. Do I want to get between you two, absolutely not. But she is someone I care for Paul and that's not going to change. I'll always be there for her. You are her husband and it's on you to take 50/50 responsibility for whatever is broke between you two. There are no innocent bystanders when it comes to relationships, they break down when both parties stop working at it. If I can offer anything to you, step back from the situation, reflect on your roll in the breakdown and then just talk to her, but be sure to listen too. 
UNQUOTE

If a man spoke to me like this about MY wife, I WOULD MAKE HIM CRY.
That's all I'm sayin...


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## phillybeffandswiss

Your wife told him intimate secrets about your character because he sent you ONE TEXT and your entire demeanor has changed.


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## bryanp

Your wife and the OM are playing you for a total fire. The fact that he sent you this email shows he has no fear from you and believes that you are a total idiot. You need to get him fired.

Your wife and OM clearly have no respect for you whatsoever. If you do not respect yourself then who will? Your fear of standing up to other people will destroy your marriage and self-esteem. Enough is enough.


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## Entropy3000

> Originally Posted by PaulD View Post
> I received the following text message from him yesterday:
> 
> If you want to know what I really want, it's just for B(wife) to be happy.
> 
> *Who gives a rat's @$$ whay he wants?* * It is not his job for her to be happy. He is basically telling you he can make her happy and not you.*
> 
> Will I continue to care for her, absolutely.
> 
> *F that.*
> 
> But she is someone I care for Paul and that's not going to change.
> 
> *He is telling you to F off and that you are too weak to do anything about it. He is telling you she is his.
> *
> I'll always be there for her.
> 
> *I am in her life and you cannot do anything about it.* *I will be honest with you I would not have contacted him this way but faced with this I would have told him that he is history and I would make sure that he dissapeared for good and if that meant me going to prison sobeit.* *Now I will tell you that I would not have let this get this far. So me having tighter boundaries is a result of me knowing that I am all in and would rather deal with small issues than these.*
> 
> That was the message I received from him. I tried to text back but he wouldn't go any farther.
> 
> I hate this guy, but he offers some insight into the situation.
> 
> *The insight is that this is a deep affair. I think his boldness proves this has been a PA for some time.
> He feels your wife is his and is confident she will choose him over you. Again that means your children too.*
> 
> I'm not a shrink. I don't know how to read this message.
> 
> *I will repeat. he is telling you, I own your wife and will continue to do so and you need to FO.*
> 
> I need some thoughts.


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## Entropy3000

PaulD said:


> I appreciate your responses. It's strange that I feel powerless yet powerful at the same time. I have the ability to single handedly cost two people their jobs and to break up 2 other families. I don't want to do any of those things thruthfully. Everyone keeps telling me to out the other cheaters but I am on the fence. I suppose I would want to know if another guy were in my shoes and found out about me. However, I would prefer if the friend would chose to do so herself.


The familes are already destroyed. You are powerless to do anything about that.

You not wanting to "do" is the immediate problem.

You have chosen some ethereal feeling about what a nice guy you are. You should be very sad another man took your family from you. And you are allowing it. There is no power in this. I guess this is Darwinian.

So if you want to be the nice guy, help set your wife up in a place so the OM can move in with her. You can watch the children while they are in their honeymoon period. You should continue to financially provide for her and the children. This will make your wife happier.


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## Entropy3000

Tony55 said:


> Obviously your wife collaborated with him and encouraged this message sent to you. It was orchestrated by the enemy (yes enemy), when she meets with him she commits treason, she betrays the trust of the marriage with a known unfriendly.
> 
> Of course your wife is being played also.
> 
> While the general message was drafted jointly by he and your wife, *he knew that she would most likely see or be conveyed the actual message*, and took that opportunity shore up his position with her as a trusted confidant and lover (kissing lover, if you like). He was showing her, through you, that he's the strong reasonable, trusted one, the one she can depend on in the future, *he's playing you and her at the same time for his own net gain*.
> 
> He's a sly one. Of course he wouldn't go any farther, he knows anything else said will also be read by your wife and he doesn't want to dilute the original intent of the message, which is (to your wife),_ 'I am strong, I'm there for you, your husband is less than me, I must teach him, my feelings for you are absolute, that will never change, I will always be your special person'_.
> 
> Lol, you hate him, but he offers you insight, right... he offers you nothing! He backhanded you! To be backhanded means you're below him, it's something one did to a servant not long ago, it means you aren't at the same level as him, his message was a virtual backhand!
> 
> Don't send him anymore messages. Tell your wife he sent you a message confessing he was playing her all along and he's sorry for it. Tell her he said he was hurting over his marriage and used her and knew it was the wrong thing to do. Tell her he said she was an easy target because of her naivety, and he exploited it and that under different circumstances he wouldn't look twice at her. Tell her he insisted this was the real truth and to please, please believe him and to not make trouble for him at work and with his wife.
> 
> *Tell her that, then sit back and wait.*
> 
> T


Yes, he was making love to his wife with this message. he showed his never ending love for her and she also gets the dopamine rush that the OM is confronting the husband and dominating him. Telling him the way it is going to be. very attractive for this guy doing the alpha thing of telling the beta guy that I am going to keep banging your wife.


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## Entropy3000

badmemory said:


> And that's the best outcome that could have happened for him. He may not save his marriage, but at least he's given it a small chance.
> 
> Yes, there are times that posters get frustrated over BS's like yourself who don't take the "collective's" advice. That frustration is born from watching someone loose their marriage when it might have been prevented - all based on prior, hard earned, experience.
> 
> You won't get any better advice than here on TAM. What makes it so valuable is that most of it is not filtered. It's direct and honest. But at the end of the day, you have adapt that advice to your own situation. You know all the nuances and dynamics of your relationship that can't be described in a 1000 pages.
> 
> That said, based on everything you've described, here's my opinion. If you don't expose this affair completely and make her quit her job, you're making a mistake.


The frustraton is like watching a dog try to cross an interstate and you are helpless to help it as it gets hit and knocked about until it is broken and in severe pain. Not pretty to watch. So you do what you can to engage the situation before the dog enter the highway. Not wait and see.


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## Entropy3000

TBT said:


> Imo,he's not saying he won't come between you,just that he doesn't want to...but he will whenever he judges it necessary because he cares for her.Pretty arrogant.He seems very confident that he's always going to be part of her life and that doesn't play with NC.


The comment was for her comsumption. Trying to make him look like the good guy to her. Now if this also gets the husband to back off then sweet.

It is Alpha PUA [email protected]


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## tom67

I hope he does something but so far...sigh.


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## weightlifter

Gabriel said:


> Paul, three things here.
> 
> 1) The OMs text to you is so similar to what my wife’s OM emailed me that it’s frightening. See what he did? He took it as another opportunity to elevate himself in her eyes. He wrote that to her as much as to you. Now she knows he’ll always care for her. Now she knows he’ll be waiting if you fvck up. There is ZERO apology, ZERO remorse. And notice how he blames you? He paints himself as your wife’s knight in shining armor. Makes me want to puke. Point this out to your wife. Tell her this guy is a weasel and takes no responsibility not only for his own marriage failing, but for ruining yours.


Paul we have all seen this before. Don't take my word. GOOGLE IT!
Emotional player 101. Simply google the words how to seduce a married woman. This is step 2 after you become "work friends"

Sorry if this place seems harsh. We see a train wreck coming and we all try to stop them!


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## phillybeffandswiss

Entropy read that ALMOST exactly the same way I did.

Here let me give you an appeal to authority, my degrees are in English and Rhetoric, that text was Specifically written to give you an out to let them cheat. He was also being condescending towards your feelings. He Cheated, he has no CLUE how you feel or what advice to give in this situation. 

The only insight you can receive is that his marriage is ruined, he wants a consolation prize for damages and that is your wife.

I'd call HIS wife because there is a reason they are splitting and I bet it is your wife.


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## Tony55

Give your wife the disinformation I mentioned...
_"Don't send him anymore messages. Tell your wife he sent you a message confessing he was playing her all along and he's sorry for it. Tell her he said he was hurting over his marriage and used her and knew it was the wrong thing to do. Tell her he said she was an easy target because of her naivety, and he exploited it and that under different circumstances he wouldn't look twice at her. Tell her he insisted this was the real truth and to please, please believe him and to not make trouble for him at work and with his wife."​_*Make it convincing.*

If she later states you lied, that he didn't say that, then walk out; you'll have confirmation that she's still collaborating with the enemy.

T


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## Jonesey

The Middleman said:


> Take action and you have the fast road to divorce, take no action and you're sleeping in someone else's creampie. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. *If you are going to error, error on the side of your self respect.*


:iagree:


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## Jonesey

Entropy3000 said:


> The comment was for her comsumption. Trying to make him look like the good guy to her. Now if this also gets the husband to back off then sweet.
> 
> It is Alpha PUA [email protected]



True ,and at the same time he get´s to taunt the husband.

Paul Please can you at least pretend to go BATSh!T?


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## spudster

I have never seen the likes.

Paul, you are one well-trained hubby.


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## Machiavelli

PaulD said:


> *I can bet my top dollar that all of you are shaking your heads at me right now. *What a weak idiot. How dare he not take our advice. However, it felt really good to get those secrets off my chest. I've been hiding them along time. Not just because they hurt her but because they hurt me too.











How did you know we would shake our heads at you?

The only way you're going to be able to save your marriage long term is to become a hardass. You have to start projecting strong, cool, maleness to win this thing; and even then it's a long shot.


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## 3putt

Machiavelli said:


> How did you know we would shake our heads at you?
> 
> The only way you're going to be able to save your marriage long term is to become a hardass. You have to start projecting strong, cool, maleness to win this thing; and even then it's a long shot.


I miss Karnak.


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## turnera

So...if she's begging you to stay, you have the power right now. You can set limits that she must meet for you to stay. Since you won't have her quit, you should AT LEAST tell her you expect her to start sending out resumes, and bcc you on them, so you know she's doing it. You should install a GPS on her phone so you can verify where she is. You should tell her to arrange a polygraph test so you can get more closure. You should have her find and set up a MC. You should have her take off all passwords on her electronics, or else give YOU the passwords. You should randomly hold your hand out at least once a week (for now) for her phone/computer so you can verify there's no contact; no, this isn't foolproof, but it shows her you won't just take her word, since her word is now mud.

If she balks at any of these things, she is not remorseful and she is not sincere, and you need to move on. If you must move on, maybe she'll realize you're serious and run to catch up to you. But if you just accept the status quo, you are just teaching her that you will accept her cheating. And she will ramp it up. And hate you.


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## LetDownNTX

I think ya'll scared Paul off, ya big meanies!!


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## The Middleman

LetDownNTX said:


> I think ya'll scared Paul off, ya big meanies!!


Yup, it's seems clear to me he's not coming back. Being told things you don't want to hear has that effect on people.


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## totamm

The guy was on here yesterday and people are writing him off and talking about him like he ran away like a coward, what the heck is with you people?

Paul if you're still around I think you're handling things rather well considering the trauma you've been through recently.

The communication you got from the other man is completely disrespectful and out of line, he's basically saying(while denying the facts) that your wife cheated on you with him because you didn't get the job done and you better shape up or he's right there to take your place. It's the height of arrogance.

Since he's separated from his wife and they're only waiting on the sale of the house to pull the plug completely, there's not much leverage there, but you could let him know if he continues to contact your wife then you'll take the affair right to the HR department.


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## 3putt

totamm said:


> The guy was on here yesterday and people are writing him off and talking about him like he ran away like a coward, what the heck is with you people?
> 
> Paul if you're still around I think you're handling things rather well considering the trauma you've been through recently.
> 
> The communication you got from the other man is completely disrespectful and out of line, he's basically saying(while denying the facts) that your wife cheated on you with him because you didn't get the job done and you better shape up or he's right there to take your place. It's the height of arrogance.
> 
> *Since he's separated from his wife and they're only waiting on the sale of the house to pull the plug completely, there's not much leverage there,* but you could let him know if he continues to contact your wife then you'll take the affair right to the HR department.


I'd be curious to know just how he came about this information. The _word_ of his wife?

Verify, Paul, verify. Don't take her word for anything and don't take for granted anything he may have told her is based on fact.

Verify yourself.

Never forget: Waywards _lie_.


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## Machiavelli

dogman said:


> POSOM said...
> If a man spoke to me like this about MY wife, I WOULD MAKE HIM CRY.
> That's all I'm sayin...


Pretty much for the rest of his short life.


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## lordmayhem

Get the picture PaulD?


----------



## dogman

lordmayhem said:


> Get the picture PaulD?



Ouch!


----------



## The Middleman

CarlF42 said:


> No sign of Paul?
> Maybe he's doing what his wife's OM told him to do...


Maybe he just wants to learn the hard way. He'll be back .... eventually .... to tell us we were right.


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## Acabado

Read again OM's email.
Again seeing red.
Arrogant bastard.


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## Woodchuck

Paul, sorry you are in such a rotten place right now. My wife and I just got through a bad place in a marriage of 47 years. 

There was no affair involved, just a marriage drifting into a really bad place. Some of it was due to a toxic friend on her part. And I guess a total lack of sensitivity on my part....

She went to an IC, and then we got "The 5 love languages"...I know it seems trite, but it really helped....The thing to realize, It is not a specific book or program that works but the mutual commitment to make a marriage work....

I think you and your wife are at a point in your marriage where you are ready to get some help....Good luck....


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## Machiavelli

Elvis has left the building. Nine out of ten Elvii don't seem to care for our advice.


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## weightlifter

Machiavelli said:


> Elvis has left the building. Nine out of ten Elvii don't seem to care for our advice.


And a third of those come back 1 month to 2 years later... Another affair.... Sometimes now with another kid and always with lower dating value.

Wash rinse repeat.


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## turnera

Paul, ignore the naysayers. If you took a step back, that's ok. Come back and learn how to make the step forward. We'll help.


----------

