# Chump Lady on Why You Can’t “Nice” People Out of Affairs



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

This is another good piece from CL. 

Why You Can’t “Nice” People Out of Affairs

This quote bears repeating!!!

*"But here’s the thing — you can’t nice people out of affairs because you didn’t “mean” them into affairs in the first place. Their decision to cheat is completely on them. We don’t control other people. Our niceness doesn’t win them back. And our meanness doesn’t compel them to hurt us. Besides what crime did you commit that is proportionate to the punishment of being betrayed?"*

The BS may be imperfect but they don't deserve the punishment of infidelity.As if the cheating spouse was perfect to begin with. HA!


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I can't say I agree with all of that quote. I definitely don't think you can nice someone out of an affair. But I do think there are things you can do to push your spouse away. I would think it would be good for the betrayed to acknowledge their own flaws in the relationship as well (if there are any). If not for the current relationship for the next one.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

ReformedHubby said:


> I can't say I agree with all of that quote. I definitely don't think you can nice someone out of an affair. But I do think there are things you can do to push your spouse away. I would think it would be good for the betrayed to acknowledge their own flaws in the relationship as well (if there are any). If not for the current relationship for the next one.


Sure, being mean will push a spouse away. But the choice is entirely theirs about how they do it. Do they ask for marriage counselling, ask for a divorce, or have an affair? That choice is all on them, not on any meanness that made the choice necessary.


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Thanks posting this article. I sent it to my husband to send to his brother. This is exactly what my BIL has been doing for the past two and half years with his cheating wife.


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Sure, being mean will push a spouse away. But the choice is entirely theirs about how they do it. Do they ask for marriage counselling, ask for a divorce, or have an affair? That choice is all on them, not on any meanness that made the choice necessary.


I agree that the choice to cheat is wrong and there are better options. I only take issue with it because its written as though the betrayed is 100% good and the cheater is 100% bad. I just think most relationships are more complicated than this.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I agree that the choice to cheat is wrong and there are better options. I only take issue with it because its written as though the betrayed is 100% good and the cheater is 100% bad. I just think most relationships are more complicated than this.


No one ever said the BS is perfect but they don't deserve the punishment of infidelity. They don't deserve to be scarred for life whatever their imperfections are. That's the point.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> Thanks posting this article. I sent it to my husband to send to his brother. This is exactly what my BIL has been doing for the past two and half years with his cheating wife.


You're welcome I hope it helps.


----------



## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> *"But here’s the thing — you can’t nice people out of affairs because you didn’t “mean” them into affairs in the first place. Their decision to cheat is completely on them. We don’t control other people. Our niceness doesn’t win them back. And our meanness doesn’t compel them to hurt us. Besides what crime did you commit that is proportionate to the punishment of being betrayed?"*


I'd like to add that "meanness" or being what some people would call being mean spirited, can end affairs. What I mean by "meanness" is indifference to the WS and broad exposure including public shaming.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> I'd like to add that "meanness" or being what some people would call being mean spirited, can end affairs. What I mean by"meanness" is indifference to the WS and broad exposure including public shaming.


There have to be consequences. Even with consequences the cheater doesn't have the mind movies, the triggers and the scarring that the BS has. Sometimes in my darker moments I think that to make a cheater fully understand what they have done is to have them experience that level of betrayal. "Empathy" for their BS's pain is not the same thing as actually feeling and experiencing it. That is why I have zero sympathy for a cheater who gets betrayed.


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> No one ever said the BS is perfect but they don't deserve the punishment of infidelity. They don't deserve to be scarred for life whatever their imperfections are. That's the point.


We're on the same page with that. I definitely agree that nobody deserves to be scarred. I get that point. 

I'm talking about the part where it says that its not your fault even if you suck as a spouse. I think if a person sucks as a spouse it can definitely increase the likelihood that your partner will stray. 

Full disclosure I'm a former wayward. In my case it was indeed 100% my fault and I accepted responsibility for my actions. So for the sake of argument the author's description is a fairly accurate depiction of me at that time in my life.

However, not all relationships are the same. What if I were sexless???? What if I were married to a woman that was verbally abusive and belittled me all the time??? I believe that having a crappy spouse does indeed make it harder for many people to resist temptation. I don't necessarily think it makes them awful people or similar to sociopaths.


----------



## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

ReformedHubby said:


> I'm talking about the part where it says that its not your fault even if you suck as a spouse. I think if a person sucks as a spouse it can definitely increase the likelihood that your partner will stray.
> .


Even if somebody sucks as a spouse, cheating says everything about the person cheating and nothing about their spouse.

People with integrity just don't cheat. Period.

The "logic" you are employing is just codependent enabling. You know what that kind of rationalization puts up with? "If you did a better job folding the towels like I told you to do, I wouldn't have punched you in the mouth". That's the ditch this periolously steep slippery slope leads you into.

You can't nice somebody out of doing terrible things that by their very nature reveal they have no real, deep empathy for you. It's not possible. If the empathy switch is off, you might as well be trying to sell an ipod and ear buds to a deaf person.

Words and blameshifting and codependent enabling just confuse things. Actions matter. Smoke, mirrors and bullpuckey don't matter.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't agree with the quote either. While I didn't cheat on my ex, if I had she'd have deserved any pain it caused her, as it would have barely begun to balance 20 plus years of sexlessness.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

ReformedHubby said:


> I'm talking about the part where it says that its not your fault even if you suck as a spouse. I think if a person sucks as a spouse it can definitely increase the likelihood that your partner will stray.


We may be on the same page, but still not reading the same paragraphs. If you suck as a spouse, it's quite true that your marriage probably won't last. But if the method of its ending involves cheating, that's entirely on the wayward spouse. If you find out your spouse isn't what you thought, and they suck and you don't enjoy the marriage, fix it or leave. Don't murder it and leave your former spouse, whom you once loved enough to marry, in psychological ruins.

Someone who cheats, no matter how bad their marriage partner was, lacks integrity and empathy. That's entirely on them, not their spouse.


----------



## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

ReformedHubby said:


> We're on the same page with that. I definitely agree that nobody deserves to be scarred. I get that point.
> 
> I'm talking about the part where it says that its not your fault even if you suck as a spouse. I think if a person sucks as a spouse it can definitely increase the likelihood that your partner will stray.
> 
> ...


I believe that's the point of the article. It isn't the betrayed spouses fault that they were cheated on, no matter how much they might "suck". The adulterer/adulterous has free will like every one else. It's not your spouses job to keep you from cheating, it's yours.


----------



## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Oh wait...I am both...now what happens?


Well, you could maybe get booked on the "Jerry Springer Show"..

Pretty ,much fits that mold.


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> I don't agree with the quote either. While I didn't cheat on my ex, if I had she'd have deserved any pain it caused her, as it would have barely begun to balance 20 plus years of sexlessness.


We all have choices.
You chose to stay in a sexless marriage for twenty years.


----------



## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> no...mine is real life...jerry springer is scripted.
> Besides....I don't any help in "fixing" anything ...we are just fine.


I don't think the primary purpose of that television show it to help people fix things. TV shows tend to be about entertaining their audiences. I know, weird right?

The subject matter is what would be a good fit for the show, I thik (I am not actually a producer for the show, and have never sat through an entire episode, but I think I have the gist of it).

You could go on, proudly tell your stories, and even renew your vows right there in front of a live audience.

There'd be no internet anonymity to hide behind, though. You'd both be out there owning your choices and proudly telling the audience how great it all is...

So that millions of people can sit in front of their TV sets and say, "Thank goodness my life isn't like that"


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> We all have choices.
> You chose to stay in a sexless marriage for twenty years.


Yeah, I was a frickin idiot and had some harmful idealistic notions about marriage and promises and fidelity back then. I learned some hard lessons and now I'd never tolerate such abuse.


----------



## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> We are not anonymous in real life of course. We are just a normal couple like everyone else....we don't wear Scarlett letters on our chests that say we are cheaters. We treat each other with respect and love..we have had a good life together in spite of the infidelity...certainly not because of it.


LOL "scarlet letters" (Hawthorne) and "stoning" (Bronze age, authors unknown). You do have a flair for the overly dramatic.

Why not just say, "He did something horrible. I did something horrible. And it's a bit of a secret in real life"?

Living a life of high integrity kind of demands transparency or at least a willingness to have complete transparency.

It's the "Live your life as if whatever you do will be in the morning paper to be read by your friends, family, co-workers" principle.

Deep, dark family secrets are the breeding ground for all sorts of dysfunction.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

TimeHeals said:


> Well, you could maybe get booked on the "Jerry Springer Show"..
> 
> Pretty ,much fits that mold.





TimeHeals said:


> I don't think the primary purpose of that television show it to help people fix things. TV shows tend to be about entertaining their audiences. I know, weird right?
> 
> The subject matter is what would be a good fit for the show, I thik (I am not actually a producer for the show, and have never sat through an entire episode, but I think I have the gist of it).
> 
> ...





TimeHeals said:


> LOL "scarlet letters" (Hawthorne) and "stoning" (Bronze age, authors unknown). You do have a flair for the overly dramatic.
> 
> Why not just say, "He did something horrible. I did something horrible. And it's a bit of a secret in real life"?
> 
> ...



You post on TAM in a very arrogant and condescending manner. Not only in this thread, but in others, as well. The fact that you do so is a reflection only on you and not on any of those with whom you appear to believe you are entitled to treat with such disrespect. 

Most people come here because they are in pain and they are seeking some kind of help or hope for their future. Some of those people do find help and then choose to stick around with the desire to pay it forward. There is no possible way that on a forum as large as TAM that everyone will see eye to eye with one another. What one person finds helpful may prove to be less beneficial, even disastrous, for another. 

Since we know that making snide and condescending comments to someone you disagree with does nothing to further their cause, it can be assumed that it is done for your pleasure and benefit, only, which is actually a bit disturbing. With regard to Mr. and Mrs. JA; what they have chosen to reveal to others, about the most intimate details in their marriage, is strictly a personal decision that should be made only by the two of them and no one else. Since their transgressions were against one another, it is important only that they have complete transparency between themselves. 

Do you routinely make a complete accounting of every single one of your sins, flaws, weaknesses, and moral failings and publish them for all of the world to see? If so, is the purpose so that others who also have sins, flaws, weaknesses, and moral failings of their own can judge you? What matters most is that Mr. and Mrs. JA (or anyone else in reconciliation) are satisfied with the current state of their relationship and with the efforts being made by their spouses. 

Your apparent need to post rude and condescending comments every single time someone, particularly former WS's, posts something that you disagree with smacks of narcissism and a sense of entitlement. Perhaps you should discuss that with a therapist. Constantly dwelling in such negativity is not conducive to healing.


----------



## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

TimeHeals said:


> LOL "scarlet letters" (Hawthorne) and "stoning" (Bronze age, authors unknown). You do have a flair for the overly dramatic.
> 
> Why not just say, "He did something horrible. I did something horrible. And it's a bit of a secret in real life"?
> 
> ...


I don't think it's a deep, dark secret, they worked things out. I don't see how that's anyone's business but their own.

Life is too short to be burden with things of the past, at the end of the day, who cares what your friends, family and coworkers think, isn't better to be happy and move on?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

EI said:


> You post on TAM in a very arrogant and condescending manner. Not only in this thread, but in others, as well. The fact that you do so is a reflection only on you and not on any of those with whom you appear to believe you are entitled to treat with such disrespect.


LOL

Oh puleeze! lol You are the last person to lecture anybody about treating anybody else with "respect" or about the trait of humility.

My first interaction with you here was pointing out that you were maliciously libeling somebody (outright making crap up--some would call that lying, and they would be right-- getting things wrong, misrepresenting, and so forth). Some of it was probably legally actionable. And the best you could muster up when called out on that was a blame-shifting non-apology.


And that poster interjected themself into the thread to play the matyr without any prompting from me. The whole "stoned to death bit" was her own interjection in response to others saying that cheating is just bad. It is just bad Playing the victim just comes off as manipulative.

Not one person suggested stoning or fictional scarlet letters. That was pure histrionic hand waving/straw man stuff. And for what? Because people wrote the only one to blame for bad behavior is the person behaving badly.

I stand by my statements in their context. If she wants high drama involving stoning and scarlet letters and husbands and wives cheating on each other, call the producers of Jerry Springer.. It belongs on that show. If she wants to hide behind her anonymity, on the other hand, and not own her statements publicly, then there may be integrity issues, and integrity issues do tend to give rise to all sorts of dysfunction 

I don't like manipulative behavior. Hint hint.


----------



## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

mablenc said:


> Life is too short to be burden with things of the past, at the end of the day, who cares what your friends, family and coworkers think, isn't better to be happy and move on?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You could be a marriage counselor!

Yes, that is what's best, but its just not always possible. Like or not, logical or not, some people cannot shake free of the betrayal. They are left to decide whether they want to divorce someone they love, turn their life (and sometimes piggy bank) upside down, or live with someone who betrayed them --and hope some day forgiveness will come.

That's just not an equitable position to put a spouse in. The cheater has some intoxicating flutter of irresponsible behavior, the BS gets a lifetime of disappointment.

It also just damned inconsiderate.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

EI said:


> You post on TAM in a very arrogant and condescending manner. Not only in this thread, but in others, as well. The fact that you do so is a reflection only on you and not on any of those with whom you appear to believe you are entitled to treat with such disrespect.





TimeHeals said:


> LOL
> 
> Oh puleeze! lol You are the last person to lecture anybody about treating anybody else with "respect" or about the trait of humility.


There you go. You just proved my point.


----------



## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Forest said:


> You could be a marriage counselor!
> 
> Yes, that is what's best, but its just not always possible. Like or not, logical or not, some people cannot shake free of the betrayal. They are left to decide whether they want to divorce someone they love, turn their life (and sometimes piggy bank) upside down, or live with someone who betrayed them --and hope some day forgiveness will come.
> 
> ...


You are correct, moving on is not always possible, there are also situations in which one couple can work through and others can't. How many times have we seen a person wanting to divorce because of porn, or others saying they watch porn as a couple. 

Cheating is not just the act of cheating, the damage comes from lying, the betrayal of trust, the impact to the household. Divorcing is also not a simple task, it truely becomes a very personal choice to move on or move forward. Some claim their marriage is stronger after an affair, others say it is worse. 
There are too many variants involved and it boils down to doing what is best for you and your family. Being able to live with your decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

TimeHeals said:


> LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wait, wait, wait. You mean the stoning and scarlet letters are not really going to happen?

Gawd. I wasted three beers for nothing.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

original posting commenting on "nicing" as a method to stop a cheater from their cheating is a very sensible and defensible stance.

pulling in side issues just confuses and distracts from its truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> We may be on the same page, but still not reading the same paragraphs. If you suck as a spouse, it's quite true that your marriage probably won't last. But if the method of its ending involves cheating, that's entirely on the wayward spouse. If you find out your spouse isn't what you thought, and they suck and you don't enjoy the marriage, fix it or leave. Don't murder it and leave your former spouse, whom you once loved enough to marry, in psychological ruins.
> 
> Someone who cheats, no matter how bad their marriage partner was, lacks integrity and empathy. That's entirely on them, not their spouse.


Point 1: Cheating often is NOT chosen as a method of leaving one's spouse. It is chosen for other reasons. Many cheaters still love their spouses.

Point 2: It is not always possible for a person to divorce their spouse. Divorce costs money, especially if contested. Living after a divorce costs money. There is not sufficient money to do this. This especially affects women with children.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Yes..anyone who cheats deserves to be stoned and put to death...period. And all betrayed spouses should be absolved of all sin now and forever...
> 
> Oh wait...I am both...now what happens?


You need to buy some weed and get stoned.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> We all have choices.
> You chose to stay in a sexless marriage for twenty years.


Let me edit this for you. You chose to stay in a sexless marriage for twenty years. You could have divorced and abandoned your kids instead.

You don't earn enough money to support two households? Well, perhaps you should just suck it up. Who needs sex anyway?

<The above is called sarcasm, in case anybody missed it.>


----------



## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

tl;dr

In the condensed version from out in left field when people post that people behaving badly are responsible for their bad behavior, are you still being stoned and Scarlet lettered?


Lol. Continue w/teeth gnashing and hair pulling...


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

TimeHeals said:


> LOL "scarlet letters" (Hawthorne) and "stoning" (Bronze age, authors unknown). You do have a flair for the overly dramatic.
> 
> Why not just say, "He did something horrible. I did something horrible. And it's a bit of a secret in real life"?
> 
> ...


Stoning is still done today. It was also done yesterday and the day before as well. It is not only condoned in the Bible, it is insisted upon in the Bible for certain offenses.

My bet would be that almost NOBODY lives a totally transparent life. And much of what is kept secret is really nobodies' business. Especially for what takes place in the bedroom and bathroom.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

TimeHeals said:


> LOL
> 
> Oh puleeze! lol You are the last person to lecture anybody about treating anybody else with "respect" or about the trait of humility.
> 
> ...


You are not the only person who was around for that event. And perhaps you should have checked EI out before assuming all sorts of things about her.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Sidney....I don't smoke...anything
> I am however having a glass of wine.....is that acceptable?


That would depend on whether ir not you are sipping it or drinking through a straw.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Forest said:


> You could be a marriage counselor!
> 
> Yes, that is what's best, but its just not always possible. Like or not, logical or not, some people cannot shake free of the betrayal. They are left to decide whether they want to divorce someone they love, turn their life (and sometimes piggy bank) upside down, or live with someone who betrayed them --and hope some day forgiveness will come.
> 
> ...


Yes it is. No argument there. But it isn't quite fair to tune into the last episode of a long running drama and decide which characters are right and which are wrong.

Marriages are complex things. Years of argument, browbeating, and at times physical violence occur. Sometimes the drama of real life finds its relief in a friend to whom one can vent. There is nothing wrong with venting to a friend.

If an affair develops with the friend, did the venting have anything to do with it?

Infidelity is awful. So is abandoning a wife after the birth of a special needs child. That happens a lot. The husband gets a divorce, so that makes him a hero, right?

But what if the husband seeks a little comfort and understanding on the outside, but is sure to be home in time to help his wife with the child and to help her cope. That guy is a monster, right?


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Forest said:


> Wait, wait, wait. You mean the stoning and scarlet letters are not really going to happen?
> 
> Gawd. I wasted three beers for nothing.


Ohio State University lettermen wear scarlet letters.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Sidney....I don't smoke...anything
> I am however having a glass of wine.....is that acceptable?


I dunno. I'll have to check in the Stoner's Guide to a Good Marriage.

But my personal opinion is that a glass of wine is ALWAYS acceptable.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

TimeHeals said:


> tl;dr
> 
> In the condensed version from out in left field when people post that people behaving badly are responsible for their bad behavior, are you still being stoned and Scarlet lettered?
> 
> ...


Come on! Those are two entirely different issues. One can only legally get stoned in Colorado. I don't know how many marriages that has saved, but I'm sure somebody will find statistics somewhere.

As for scarlet letters, besides football teams, we can have them here if we wish. Here's a scarlet J for Mrs. Adams.


----------



## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> Yes it is. No argument there. But it isn't quite fair to tune into the last episode of a long running drama and decide which characters are right and which are wrong.
> 
> Marriages are complex things. Years of argument, browbeating, and at times physical violence occur. Sometimes the drama of real life finds its relief in a friend to whom one can vent. There is nothing wrong with venting to a friend.
> 
> ...


???

Is this some kind of weed induced response? No idea where all these muddled tangents on violence, browbeating, special needs kids, and abandonment come from.

My position is pretty clear. Yours...? I have no idea.

You can take a victory lap with Benedict Arnold and explain it away as "moving forward" if you want. Cheaters and betrayers get a bad rap because they've earned it. Their excuses are just hollow noise.


----------



## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Bandit had the right answer.

It has to do more with respect. Standing up for yourself and your marriage. By being nice you are agreeing with the cheating, showing you do not care and do not respect yourself,


----------



## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> However, not all relationships are the same. *What if I were sexless???? What if I were married to a woman that was verbally abusive and belittled me all the time??? *


I can tell you what to do. 

You talk to your spouse about it, and if being sexless or being married to a verbally abusive person is a deal breaker for you such that you would severely damage another human being by being a coward, a liar and a cheat; THEN, after that apparently awkward social custom of COMMUNICATING-WITH-YOUR-SPOUSE doesn't work and they do nothing about changing their behaviour, YOU LEAVE the marriage and move on. 

Et Voila! No cheating needed!


----------



## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> The people that need to know....know. It is no one else's business.
> 
> In reconciliation....it is not necessary to broadcast your private matters to the world...in divorce i guess it doesn't matter one way or the other.
> 
> By the way.. transparency means being transparent to EACH OTHER...not to every other person on the face of the earth.


I may be somewhat off topic from what you were referring to, but it sparked a question in my mind that I hoped you might answer. You frequently use the "one size doesn't fit all" argument in regards to reconciliation, which I think is generally a fair point as long as it's not used to deflect legitimate criticism of an immoral act. I'm not accusing you of doing that btw. Having said that. Do you not believe some things are universally true in regards to relationships? 

Just as an example, would you argue that one is not morally obligated to inform the other BS of their spouse's affair? Would you have been able to have a clean conscience if your husbands AP had been married and you allowed the other BS to be left in the dark all of these years about what transpired between them? Wouldn't anybody who argued against informing him be rightly "set straight" on here?

I guess what I'm asking is, while it's true that there are some things that should be left up to individual preference "as long as it works for them" aren't there other things that really are black and white no matter how much people try and convince themselves that they're mere shades of gray? I hope you take this in the spirit that it was intended.


----------



## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

sidney2718 said:


> You are not the only person who was around for that event. And perhaps you should have checked EI out before assuming all sorts of things about her.


I didn't assume anything.

I knew for a fact that many things she posted were fabricated out of whole cloth while others were gross misrepresentations, and the malice was quite evident and expressed clearly and with much effort on her part.

Definition of malicious libel. I have no idea what motivated that, nor do I care.

And then the non-apology. Character defect if I ever saw one.


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

sidney2718 said:


> Point 1: Cheating often is NOT chosen as a method of leaving one's spouse. It is chosen for other reasons. Many cheaters still love their spouses.
> 
> Point 2: It is not always possible for a person to divorce their spouse. Divorce costs money, especially if contested. Living after a divorce costs money. There is not sufficient money to do this. This especially affects women with children.


Point 1: Cheaters do NOT love their spouses.
Love includes respect and that is not, and cannot be present while one spouse is lying, cheating, manipulating and betraying the other. The justifications cheaters come up with (verbal abuse, sexlessness) are merely means to allow a cheater to place the responsibility for their actions on to another.

Point 2: Divorce is always possible, just not always desired. Those who say it isn't value their money more than their spouse or their own self-respect. Yes it disproportionately hurts women and children more, believe me, I know. There are always options.


----------



## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I can't say I agree with all of that quote. I definitely don't think you can nice someone out of an affair. But I do think there are things you can do to push your spouse away. I would think it would be good for the betrayed to acknowledge their own flaws in the relationship as well (if there are any). If not for the current relationship for the next one.


I agree but an affair is like dropping a nuke. It’s like two countries having disagreements and border skirmishes. 

Both sides probably have legitimate concerns and complaints. However, if one country nukes the other it’s a game changer.


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

I always try to look at infidelity now like alcohoism, drug addiction, or a gambling problem.

a. you can't nice someone into sobriety
b. you can't blame their spouse for their bad behavior

what you CAN do is call a betrayed spouse out i they

c. enable the bad behavior

I would suggest being "nice" just enables the bad behavior. In that way not only are you not solving the problem, you are actually feeding it.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I am a BS who was the lousy spouse prior to my wife's cheating.

I did not deserve to be cheated on.

However, now that we are reconciling, I do think it is my job to be a better husband than I was before my wife's EA.

The BS has a choice. We can always choose to end the marriage if we want. But if we choose to work it out, we need to give it our all. Just like the wayward does.


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> I am a BS who was the lousy spouse prior to my wife's cheating.
> 
> I did not deserve to be cheated on.
> 
> ...


Best of luck in the R.
Just a question to bring the discussion back to the title of this thread-did you "nice" your WS out of the A?


----------



## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

To Mrs. JA

Well I was honestly not expecting that answer. I'm a little taken aback by what seems like a cavalier attitude in regards to allowing another person to be made an absolute fool of, unless I'm misunderstanding what I've read, which I'm sure I've been guilty of before. I think I could see why somebody would not get involved if it was a total strangers relationship and one had simply stumbled onto their affair and had no knowledge about them or their AP and neither you or your spouse were actually involved with the affair in any way. Perhaps you don't know if their all aware of whats happening and their okay with it. I at least could fathom why not getting involved could possibly be a understandable decision in such a scenario. 

But if somebody has an affair with a married person and doesn't feel any sort of obligation to inform the other BS of the affair. I would not believe in that former WS's sincerity in regards to having changed as a person. How could a man sleep with another mans wife, defile his family and his home then turn around and say he has repented of that sin while simultaneously refusing to confess to the person he has wronged? That's not repentance, that's fraudulence.

You are a Christian correct? Doesn't the word of God already tell us what we must do when we sin against somebody? To not even attempt to seek a persons forgiveness after destroying their life would make that person's repentance insincere at best. They cannot be forgiven by the wronged party without confession, otherwise how would the person know what to forgive them for? I do not understand how you can maintain such a position as being morally acceptable, but I am glad neither your AP nor your husbands AP were married.


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

All I know is that my BIL has been in limbo for the last 2 and 1/2 years because he took his therapists advice to "nice" my SIL back. Trip to NYC, new wedding band and general ass kissing hasn't worked one bit.


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

In what world is cheating a legitimate response to anything?

Is cheating on a final exam in university a legitimate response ever?

Why on earth do some people give marital cheating get a free pass, but any other kind of cheating is zero tolerance?

If I cheat in any other way, can I factor in my spouse's bad behavior for that?

I am taking night classes... does this mean I can factor my husband into the mix if I cheat on my exams?

Where on earth does this nonsense come from that cheating a marriage is complicated but any other kind of cheating is zero tolerance?

Why the hell does cheating a marriage get handled any different than all other kinds of cheating?


----------



## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Divorce and reconciliation are very personal issues, I believe it's up to the betrayed spouse to decide. 

I don't think anyone has any right to say whether not either choice is right or wrong. It's not anyone's business but the couples. 
I also think that shamming others for their choices is wrong. There are many factors that come to play in the decision, why not be opened minded and supportive, this is what this site is about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Nostromo said:


> You are a Christian correct? *Doesn't the word of God already tell us what we must do when we sin against somebody? To not even attempt to seek a persons forgiveness after destroying their life would make that person's repentance insincere at best.* They cannot be forgiven by the wronged party without confession, otherwise how would the person know what to forgive them for? I do not understand how you can maintain such a position as being morally acceptable, but I am glad neither your AP nor your husbands AP were married.


In my case, the OM was married. I don't know or care if he's a Christian, but I know I am. He hasn't tried once to gain my forgiveness, and by Christ it's the most difficult thing I've ever tried to do. 

Part of my point is there are so many different dynamics, there's no one answer. When there are three or four people involved, then their familes, their workplaces, etc, there are too many dynamics for us on TAM to know about, even in an epic thread like LuvMyJava's, for example. 

And pardon me for saying this, but it's true that not all "Christians" really practice it, or have even read the Bible. I know the OM in orbit of my life is a man, and whether he's Christian or Jew or Muslim, I need to find a way to forgive him. 

Does that make me a better man? In God's eyes, from what I understand, yes it does. Some will say who else matters... fair enough. But I have to live with myself on this Earth. God and I will talk it over at the end. Meanwhile, until I gather the strength or perfection to forgive that rat bastard, I need to make sure I steer clear of him because I'm just enough animal to do something TO him. 

So again, no one answer to similar issues with different people. There are too many variables in the human experience.


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

doubletrouble said:


> In my case, the OM was married. I don't know or care if he's a Christian, but I know I am. He hasn't tried once to gain my forgiveness, and by Christ it's the most difficult thing I've ever tried to do.
> 
> Part of my point is there are so many different dynamics, there's no one answer. When there are three or four people involved, then their familes, their workplaces, etc, there are too many dynamics for us on TAM to know about, even in an epic thread like LuvMyJava's, for example.
> 
> ...


He is also a god of justice. A price has to be paid. Just as there is a price to be paid for sin, there is also a price to be paid for forgiveness. That price is repentance.


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

mablenc said:


> Divorce and reconciliation are very personal issues, I believe it's up to the betrayed spouse to decide.


Really? Is that what we tell people who cheat on their exams? 



mablenc said:


> I don't think anyone has any right to say whether not either choice is right or wrong. It's not anyone's business but the couples.


Really? Is that what we say to alcholics who drink to excess to the detriment of their family?



mablenc said:


> I also think that shaming others for their choices is wrong.


Why not walk into an AA meeting and try that?

Those people trying to get sober are pretty shamed for what they have done, and it's done a lot to help them wake up and recover.



mablenc said:


> There are many factors that come to play in the decision, why not be opened minded and supportive, this is what this site is about.


More excuses?

_Sorry, but this is the kind of BS that perpetuates infidelity in the first place. Enabling by excusing._

If your kids cheat on their exams and come home to say "lets be open minded.. there are many factors at play here" do you nod your head in agreement?

_The only legitimate response to any case of infidelity is with zero tolerance, not with "lets be open minded."
_


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Riley_Z said:


> _The only legitimate response to any case of infidelity is with zero tolerance, not with "lets be open minded."
> _


Could you please clarify your position, are you advocating stoning or firing squads?


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> Could you please clarify your position, are you advocating stoning or firing squads?


Good lord.

I am not addressing consequences. What I am addressing is the level of tolerance people ought to prescribe to infidelity.

Drug and Alcohol addiction
Infidelity
Violence

All three of these ought to be zero tolerance in any household. All three ought to be dealt with at the same level of seriousness. When you find out violence is in the home there is no "lets be open minded here.. blah blah blah"

Meaning, no excuses, no "lets be open minded" blah blah

You address these matters with 100% seriousness and tolerate zero excuses about what the motives are for anyone acting in these ways.

If there is violence happening in the home, if there is drug abuse going on in the home, or there is infidelity of any kind happening in the home the response is always the same : _I don't want to hear any excuses_.

How these matters are addressed is a whole other discussion.

What I am advocating is to stop with these pathetic excuses for behavior that is clearly detrimental to the household.


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

So Riley, a BS is not allowed to forgive their WS in your world? They must D no matter what?


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Riley_Z said:


> Really? Is that what we tell people who cheat on their exams?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now see, I read the post and thought she was referring to decision to divorce vs. R after an act of infidelity. And for that I would completely agree.

If she was addressing the decision to cheat or not to cheat, well, she's way off base. There are absolutes in this world. Choosing to cheat is wrong.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Pluto2 said:


> Best of luck in the R.
> Just a question to bring the discussion back to the title of this thread-did you "nice" your WS out of the A?


Great question. I did everything. Angered at her, ignored her, niced her, cried at her, threatened her. Hard to tell which worked. Though threatened her was the last one I did.


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Riley_Z said:


> What I am addressing is the level of tolerance people ought to prescribe to infidelity.


By "people" do you mean people in general or a specific BS and/or WS?

And you mean definition 2, right? Emphasis on permissive?

tol·er·ance [tol-er-uhns] 
noun
1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.
2. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.
3. interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.
4. the act or capacity of enduring; endurance: _My tolerance of noise is limited._


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

sandc said:


> So Riley, a BS is not allowed to forgive their WS in your world? They must D no matter what?


I was going to ask this same question. It's hard to tell, Riley, what you mean by zero tolerance.

Zero tolerance can either mean, 1) I forgive you and am willing to move on, as long as it never happens again and you (the cheater) shows remorse and never does it again, 

or 

2) I will terminate this marriage no matter what you do or how sorry you are.

If you mean #2, that means infidelity is a deal breaker for you. That's okay. But it doesn't mean #2 is how everybody should handle it.

Comparing this issue to cheating on a test is completely ridiculous.


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

sandc said:


> So Riley, a BS is not allowed to forgive their WS in your world? They must D no matter what?


It can also mean not tolerating the continuation of an affair within the confines of the marriage because of X, Y, or Z.

In other words, the BS is not obligated to tolerate the infidelity, nor under any ethical, or moral obligation to assume responsibility for the infidelity. The BS need not do the work to repair the relationship until and unless the WS assumes full responsibility for the betrayal, with necessary remorse.


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> *I am a Christian...a southern Baptist. Does that mean that I agree with absolutely everything the Southern Baptist convention says I should or should not....simply no.
> 
> Now having said that.....I believe that i am responsible for MY sins....I believe that i am responsible to ask forgiveness from those i have sinned against. So FOR ME......if i had an affair with another woman's husband...I would probably feel the responsibility to ask her forgiveness at some point and time.
> HOWEVER...you are asking me to SPECULATE on a situation that did not occur. I can answer for NO ONE ELSE...only me.
> ...


Thrilled that you and the Mr. reconciled.
Except, you and your H are posting on a public forum, which itself, is asking for comments from total strangers. So if you don't want others to comment, why post?


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Forest said:


> ???
> 
> Is this some kind of weed induced response? No idea where all these muddled tangents on violence, browbeating, special needs kids, and abandonment come from.
> 
> ...


I think I made it clear that violence and "browbeating" are often precursors for infidelity. They are not excuses, but one needs to know about them before one can give any reasonable advice. So, by the way, is financial status. Some folks can't afford a divorce at all.

I mentioned special needs kids and abandonment as things one spouse can do to the other that are just as bad as infidelity and sometimes worse than infidelity. And this list is not complete. The point is that infidelity is NOT the WORST thing that can happen to a marriage. There are other things as bad or worse.

I'm sorry that you cannot see this.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

jim123 said:


> Bandit had the right answer.
> 
> It has to do more with respect. Standing up for yourself and your marriage. By being nice you are agreeing with the cheating, showing you do not care and do not respect yourself,


We'll have to define "nice". If it means accepting what the WS has done, or ignoring it, then I agree. But that's not what I understand by nice.

Let me put it this way:

Nice: Please don't let the door hit you on the way out. 

Not nice: I don't give a d**m if the f**king door hits you on the way out or not.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I can tell you what to do.
> 
> You talk to your spouse about it, and if being sexless or being married to a verbally abusive person is a deal breaker for you such that you would severely damage another human being by being a coward, a liar and a cheat; THEN, after that apparently awkward social custom of COMMUNICATING-WITH-YOUR-SPOUSE doesn't work and they do nothing about changing their behaviour, YOU LEAVE the marriage and move on.
> 
> Et Voila! No cheating needed!


Correct!

Let us assume that it is the husband complaining about no sex. The advice is good, except that what if he still loves his wife, he does not want to abandon his kids, and setting up a second household will impoverish them both. So he doesn't want a divorce.

What happens then?


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> Point 1: Cheaters do NOT love their spouses.
> Love includes respect and that is not, and cannot be present while one spouse is lying, cheating, manipulating and betraying the other. The justifications cheaters come up with (verbal abuse, sexlessness) are merely means to allow a cheater to place the responsibility for their actions on to another.


We'll just have to agree to disagree. Saying that cheaters do not love their spouses is unsupportable. Reconciliations do happen. Do they happen if one spouse does not love the other? In fact I believe that most cheaters DO love their spouses. They just feel that their marriages are not complete. Am I condoning cheating when I say this? Absolutely not.



> Point 2: Divorce is always possible, just not always desired. Those who say it isn't value their money more than their spouse or their own self-respect. Yes it disproportionately hurts women and children more, believe me, I know. There are always options.


You are once again making an unsupportable assumption. There are many folks in the US who simply cannot afford a divorce. These are the many people living on the fringe of poverty.

We've had this in threads on TAM. In once case the H and the W had staggered their working hours so that one of them could always be home for the young children. For various reasons they wanted to divorce. They could not afford two apartments and day care even with two jobs.

Not everyone has a couple of hundred thou in the bank.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Graywolf2 said:


> I agree but an affair is like dropping a nuke. It’s like two countries having disagreements and border skirmishes.
> 
> Both sides probably have legitimate concerns and complaints. However, if one country nukes the other it’s a game changer.


I agree. And I'm sure you'd agree that dropping a nuke isn't the only game changer either. Chemical and biological warfare also come to mind.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Riley_Z said:


> I always try to look at infidelity now like alcohoism, drug addiction, or a gambling problem.
> 
> a. you can't nice someone into sobriety
> b. you can't blame their spouse for their bad behavior
> ...


I can't argue with you. But I consider alcoholism a disease that can only be ended by the choice of the alcoholic. And I agree that the best aid to cure is by being blunt and direct and not necessarily nice.

And of course I agree with (c).


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

gabriel said:


> i am a bs who was the lousy spouse prior to my wife's cheating.
> 
> I did not deserve to be cheated on.
> 
> ...


Exactly!


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

If you want to believe that you love your spouse when you engage in an act of infidelity, go right ahead. You can try to make yourself believe anything I suppose. This has nothing to do with R after the A has ended which is an entirely different subject.

With all due respect Sidney I am not making assumptions, supportable or not. The decision to stay married or to divorce is a choice. There are always consequences. It remains a choice. Sometimes the choice seems easy, and other times not so much.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Riley_Z said:


> In what world is cheating a legitimate response to anything?
> 
> Is cheating on a final exam in university a legitimate response ever?
> 
> ...


I don't believe it does get treated differently. What may be confusing is that there are two possible outcomes: one is divorce, the other is reconciliation.

Which to you recommend?

I don't think one can answer that question without more information about the state of the marriage. That is NOT treating some infidelities differently. It is about the next step after the infidelity is known.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Riley_Z said:


> Really? Is that what we tell people who cheat on their exams?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you've just killed a straw man. Much of what you wrote is not about marital infidelity, even if the same word: "cheating" is used for those other situations.


----------



## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

I lurked on TAM for a while before I posted my first thread, and got slammed for being an idiot. Literally told I was a first class idiot. 

I'm still with the gal, and we're working things out. 

My first wife cheated on me and I D'ed her right away. 

So even the same BS might respond to infidelity in different ways at different times in life, with a different mate, for different reasons. 

There was no internet for my first D; I did all that on my own. Didn't need anyone else's advice. And I didn't take some of the advice I was given here, even some of the well-meaning advice. 

Why? Because only I know my life, and all the ramifications of my choices, and only I have to live with them. 

That said, I also got some great ideas that I am using. You take from TAM and other places, people, friends etc what you can use and discard the rest.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Riley_Z said:


> Good lord.
> 
> I am not addressing consequences. What I am addressing is the level of tolerance people ought to prescribe to infidelity.
> 
> ...


I don't believe anybody gave a pathetic excuse for cheating. Or are you talking about the reason for the cheating? A reason isn't an excuse. It is an explanation. It is good to have explanations so that one can attempt to ensure that it doesn't happen again.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> Now see, I read the post and thought she was referring to decision to divorce vs. R after an act of infidelity. And for that I would completely agree.
> 
> If she was addressing the decision to cheat or not to cheat, well, she's way off base. There are absolutes in this world. Choosing to cheat is wrong.


So you are against reconciliation and feel that divorce is the only moral choice? That's fine with me. Just make sure your spouse understands that.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> Thrilled that you and the Mr. reconciled.
> Except, you and your H are posting on a public forum, which itself, is asking for comments from total strangers. So if you don't want others to comment, why post?


Possibly because her affair is not the subject of this thread?


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> If you want to believe that you love your spouse when you engage in an act of infidelity, go right ahead. You can try to make yourself believe anything I suppose. This has nothing to do with R after the A has ended which is an entirely different subject.
> 
> With all due respect Sidney I am not making assumptions, supportable or not. The decision to stay married or to divorce is a choice. There are always consequences. It remains a choice. Sometimes the choice seems easy, and other times not so much.


I agree with the last paragraph.


----------



## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> Could you please clarify your position, are you advocating stoning or firing squads?


Here we go with the stoning hyperbole again. That's what started this whole circle of open mindedness.


----------



## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

My response in an ugly shade of teal.



Mrs. John Adams said:


> *I am a Christian...a southern Baptist. Does that mean that I agree with absolutely everything the Southern Baptist convention says I should or should not....simply no.
> 
> I honestly don't care what any convention says. I was merely referring to what God says in his written word. That trumps whatever the convention has to say about the matter.
> 
> ...


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Point 1: Cheating often is NOT chosen as a method of leaving one's spouse. It is chosen for other reasons. Many cheaters still love their spouses.


How does one claim love for their spouse, then go out and F someone else?






> Point 2: It is not always possible for a person to divorce their spouse. Divorce costs money, especially if contested. Living after a divorce costs money. There is not sufficient money to do this. This especially affects women with children.


Ah, so cheaters decide to not only betray their spouse, but use them for their own financial well being. 

Nice, real nice.

I didn't care what it cost. I took out a loan to get divorced.

I also don't live quite as well as I did before. But I'm living a helluva lot better than living with someone that can't stay faithful.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Riley_Z said:


> I always try to look at infidelity now like alcohoism, drug addiction, or a gambling problem.
> 
> a. you can't nice someone into sobriety
> b. you can't blame their spouse for their bad behavior
> ...


And alcoholics may stop drinking and become sober til the end of their days, but they are still acoholics


----------



## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Riley_Z said:


> Really? Is that what we tell people who cheat on their exams?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sigh, it's up to a school how they handle a person who cheats in a test. 

Alcoholics can recover, everyone deserves a second chance.

If my child cheats on a test, as a parent it's up to me and the school to decide punishment.
And no, there is no legitimate responds to cheating, just because you see things your way doesn't makes you right. 
People have free will, why do you care if someone reconciles?

Again, it's not your place to shame others for their past and mistakes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> I agree. And I'm sure you'd agree that dropping a nuke isn't the only game changer either. Chemical and biological warfare also come to mind.


:iagree:


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

vellocet said:


> How does one claim love for their spouse, then go out and F someone else?


Love, but not IN LOVE. I think a WS can love their BS while cheating. It's called compartmentalization.

But I don't think they can be IN LOVE with them while doing it. That would cause hard drives to explode.


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Nostromo, given your understanding of Scripture, what is a BS to do when confronted with their spouse's infidelity?


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

vellocet said:


> And alcoholics may stop drinking and become sober til the end of their days, but they are still acoholics



I would venture to say that the same sentiment applies to egotistical, arrogant, condescending, narcissistic fools who have ridiculously over inflated egos. I hear there is an awful lot of that going around! 

The problem with educating stupid people is that they don't know they're stupid.


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> Love, but not IN LOVE. I think a WS can love their BS while cheating. It's called compartmentalization.
> 
> But I don't think they can be IN LOVE with them while doing it. That would cause hard drives to explode.


So they say, I've heard several waywards claim it. It just makes the ILY sound a bit hollow, doesn't it. I was about to flip-flop when my wife said "I loved you all along, and I always will..." - I can say for myself, that if love includes betrayal, I would rather not have it. 

OTH, I acknowledge that there sometimes must be some feelings left in order for the fWS to attempt R.

To adress the OP; I believe that sometimes it is possible to nice someone out of an affair, ie. if the marriage was really bad pre-affair. But I also believe that it has to be nice and really firm at the same time.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

cpacan said:


> So they say, I've heard several waywards claim it. It just makes the ILY sound a bit hollow, doesn't it. I was about to flip-flop when my wife said "I loved you all along, and I always will..." - I can say for myself, that if love includes betrayal, I would rather not have it.
> 
> OTH, I acknowledge that there sometimes must be some feelings left in order for the fWS to attempt R.
> 
> To adress the OP; I believe that sometimes it is possible to nice someone out of an affair, ie. if the marriage was really bad pre-affair. But I also believe that it has to be nice and really firm at the same time.


Great post, cpacan!


----------



## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

vellocet said:


> And alcoholics may stop drinking and become sober til the end of their days, but they are still acoholics


C'mon Vell, you're a smart person; I've seen you post wiser stuff. 

So alcoholics and cheaters and addicts and murderers are always in this category, no matter whether they pay their dues to society or their betrayed spouse?

The memory stays in the BS's mind, for sure. And the wayward's. It leaves scars on the heart. Cheating can kill a relationship or marriage. But it doesn't have to define you forever.


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Point 1: Cheating often is NOT chosen as a method of leaving one's spouse. It is chosen for other reasons. Many cheaters still love their spouses. Disagree ... You are not loving your partner while you are stabbing them in their soul. ILYBINILWY = I choose not to love you. That's why it's called the cheater's mantra. I am amazed at this assertion ... are you loving someone as you smash them in the head with a shovel?


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> I mentioned special needs kids and abandonment as things one spouse can do to the other that are just as bad as infidelity and sometimes worse than infidelity. And this list is not complete. The point is that infidelity is NOT the WORST thing that can happen to a marriage. There are other things as bad or worse.


I respectfully suggest you have never suffered infidelity, correct?


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

EI said:


> I would venture to say that the same sentiment applies to egotistical, arrogant, condescending, narcissistic fools who have ridiculously over inflated egos. I hear there is an awful lot of that going around!
> 
> The problem with educating stupid people is that they don't know they're stupid.


Nice!

Remind me, which group is it that gets accused of being angry and driving away other posters?


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Jung_admirer said:


> I respectfully suggest you have never suffered infidelity, correct?


Would a wife murdering their children be worse?

I agree in principle with the statement that there are worse things than infidelity.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I can't say I agree with all of that quote. I definitely don't think you can nice someone out of an affair. But I do think there are things you can do to push your spouse away.


No, there are not. People don't "push" or "pull" other people in2 affairs. The affairees make conscious choices. Assigning responsibility for ANY of it 2 the spouse who's completely unaware of it makes no sense whatsoever.



> I would think it would be good for the betrayed to acknowledge their own flaws in the relationship as well (if there are any). If not for the current relationship for the next one.


Certainly. Different problem, however.

-ol' 2long


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I don't agree with the quote either. While I didn't cheat on my ex, if I had she'd have deserved any pain it caused her, as it would have barely begun to balance 20 plus years of sexlessness.


I worry about your current wife's fu2re

-ol' 2long


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

sidney2718 said:


> Infidelity is awful. So is abandoning a wife after the birth of a special needs child. That happens a lot. The husband gets a divorce, so that makes him a hero, right?
> 
> But what if the husband seeks a little comfort and understanding on the outside, but is sure to be home in time to help his wife with the child and to help her cope. That guy is a monster, right?


My son has autism. I've seen a lot of spousal abandonment in the autism community. I don't like it one bit. I wouldn't label this man you speak of who is seeking "comfort" outside his marriage a monster... *as long as* he afforded his wife the same opportunity to receive this outside "comfort". 

For religious reasons I would not associate with either one of these people.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Yes it is. No argument there. But it isn't quite fair to tune into the last episode of a long running drama and decide which characters are right and which are wrong.
> 
> Marriages are complex things. Years of argument, browbeating, and at times physical violence occur. Sometimes the drama of real life finds its relief in a friend to whom one can vent. There is nothing wrong with venting to a friend.
> 
> ...


Damned straight he is. 

Why is that so hard 2 understand? 

-ol' 2long


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

2long said:


> I worry about your current wife's fu2re
> 
> -ol' 2long


How so? That seems like an incredibly ignorant remark.


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> I don't believe anybody gave a pathetic excuse for cheating. Or are you talking about the reason for the cheating? A reason isn't an excuse. It is an explanation. It is good to have explanations so that one can attempt to ensure that it doesn't happen again.


There is no tolerable explanation for infidelity. Reason, explanation, excuse, motive.. it's all the same BS.

In my opinion if you try to explain your behavior you are moving in the wrong direction.

You own it and you correct it. Without excuse, explanation, or reason attached.

There is no explanation or reason for cheating. There isn't. Anymore than an alcoholic explaining why they drink to excess.

They just do it, and it's not constructive.

You stop it, without all the blabbering about why.

Far too often people attach explanations to their cheating and it is just excuses. I don't think there is any value exploring the "why" of cheating since it's all just BS anyways.

If you are unsatisfied with a course in university your constructive choice is to quit the course. Cheating the course/exams because you aren't satisfied?

No, sorry, that does not compute. There's no reason to get into that. It's all just BS.

I have heard people yammer on about cheating for years. I have yet to hear a legitimate explanation.

I am just sick and tired of people attaching explanations to their cheating behavior. There's no point in attaching an explanation... there's no explanation for it.

Nothing a person can say can make cheating understandable under any circumstances. So why bother wasting time trying to explain it, or wasting time listening to people yammer on in some futile attempt to explain the inexcusable.


----------



## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Ripper said:


> Nice!
> 
> Remind me, which group is it that gets accused of being angry and driving away other posters?


You've hit on something with substance.



EI said:


> I would venture to say that the same sentiment applies to egotistical, arrogant, condescending, narcissistic fools who have ridiculously over inflated egos. I hear there is an awful lot of that going around!
> 
> The problem with educating stupid people is that they don't know they're stupid.


In one breath berating the condescending, in the next? Condescending.



Mrs. John Adams said:


> *
> 
> The problems I see occurring on TAM is that some folks make it their mission to "set" others straight and it is usually done in a very condescending manner that is hurtful not helpful. While i may disagree with your opinion about something....I am NOT going to come after you and tear you apart... Instead....I keep my opinions to myself....]*


*

Sounds reasonable. Until:




Mrs. John Adams said:



Yes..anyone who cheats deserves to be stoned and put to death...period. And all betrayed spouses should be absolved of all sin now and forever...

Click to expand...

It should be obvious. This forum is entitled "Coping With Infidelity". If you are an adulterer posting in this forum, you should not be surprised to encounter resistance or hostility. You should have thick skin. 

Willingness to accept responsibility; remorse, and reformation all deserve consideration. But expecting others to blindly accept your eminence?*


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

Pluto2 said:


> Now see, I read the post and thought she was referring to decision to divorce vs. R after an act of infidelity. And for that I would completely agree.
> 
> If she was addressing the decision to cheat or not to cheat, well, she's way off base. There are absolutes in this world. Choosing to cheat is wrong.


You are jumping to a consequence discussion. I have not addressed consequences.

I am talking about A, and you keep responding about topic B. There's no point in that.

My argument is that there is no explanation, excuse, description, perception, or words that anyone can say to in any way legitimize infidelity.

There is no point in explaining infidelity anymore than there is explaining cheating on your final exams at a university.

It's not a constructive or legitimate response to whatever the problem is you face, so you lose all credibility.

If I have a problem with my spouse I have credibility to respond to it... I can respond constructively.  If I choose to start cheating as a response to the problems I have with my spouse I lose all credibility for the problem I had. It gets overshadowed by the cheating.

Even if my spouse was beating me black and blue and i chose to cheat, that's just a stupid response to the situation. I am just going to get beat worse.

I have yet to hear one single explanation that is of any value to the infidelity discussion.

I have heard explanations, excuses, you name it.. nothing sticks yet.

Nothing.

I was lonely
I was feeling neglected
You don't love me
We don't have sex enough
We don't go out anymore
You are a mean spouse

Yada yada yada... i have yet to hear any explanation that adds any value to the discussion.

So my position is to advocate zero tolerance. Tolerate no excuses. Deal with the problem, without wasting time on all the pointless excuses.


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> I don't believe it does get treated differently. What may be confusing is that there are two possible outcomes: one is divorce, the other is reconciliation.


Really? Marital cheating gets treated a differently than other kinds of cheating all the time.

I don't know many other kinds of cheating that are tolerated... you have marital cheating and spouses that turn a blind eye to it or try to "nice" a person into stopping their cheating.

Ever hear of someone cheating a sporting event and getting "niced" back into fair play?

It does not work that way. But here we have marital cheating and for some ridiculous reason people drum up a whole host of responses that don't compute.

Look at the case referenced of some guy with a cheating wife and he's being nice for 2.5 years? Really?

You think if I cheated a sporting event they would allow me to continue participating and buy me gifts for it for 2.5 years?

No.

My point is to respond to marital cheating the same way you would respond to any other kind of cheating. And that goes for third party friends and family too.

If I cheat a sporting event and someone discloses this to my sister, she's gonna bust me for it.

I have lost track of how many friends and family find out someone is cheating and they respond with this "well, lets try to be open minded about the situation... lets not judge..."

Sorry, but that's a load of crap.

If I am caught using steroids at a sporting event, I am disqualified. There is no "lets not judge, lets hear him out" crap. You get caught with steroids, you are out. Zero tolerance.

But cheating a marriage means buying people gifts and being understanding???!!!

What a load.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> I think I made it clear that violence and "browbeating" are often precursors for infidelity. They are not excuses, but one needs to know about them before one can give any reasonable advice. So, by the way, is financial status. Some folks can't afford a divorce at all.
> 
> I mentioned special needs kids and abandonment as things one spouse can do to the other that are just as bad as infidelity and sometimes worse than infidelity. And this list is not complete. The point is that infidelity is NOT the WORST thing that can happen to a marriage. There are other things as bad or worse.
> 
> I'm sorry that you cannot see this.


Well, I can't see it either.

-ol' 2long


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> We'll have to define "nice". If it means accepting what the WS has done, or ignoring it, then I agree. But that's not what I understand by nice.
> 
> Let me put it this way:
> 
> ...


A far better distinction would be between "nice" and "kind."

Your example of nice isn't. Nice is playing the pick-me dance, ignoring the affair and hoping it will go away, and walking on eggshells. Advising someone 2 be wary of the door hitting them on their way 2 the curb is a kindness.

-ol' 2long


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Correct!
> 
> Let us assume that it is the husband complaining about no sex. The advice is good, except that what if he still loves his wife, he does not want to abandon his kids, and setting up a second household will impoverish them both. So he doesn't want a divorce.
> 
> What happens then?


he rationalizes that it's better for him 2 lie and cheat 2 get what he wants, than it is 2 be honest with himself and his family, and making a healthy selfless choice. 

-ol' 2long


----------



## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Correct!
> 
> Let us assume that it is the husband complaining about no sex. The advice is good, except that what if he still loves his wife, he does not want to abandon his kids, and setting up a second household will impoverish them both. So he doesn't want a divorce.
> 
> What happens then?


Then he has to decide which one is more important to him. 

His love for a woman that has declined, at the risk of her husband divorcing her, to meet his sexual needs. 

OR, if he loves his wife so much that he is prepared to stay with a woman that is refusing to be a wife to him, he is then making his own bed by staying in a marriage that isn't a marriage and has to suck up the fact that he gets no sex. 

What he doesn't do is sneak around behind her back, being a coward, a liar and a cheater and go f*ck another woman!

*It's called talking responsibility for one's own choices!*


Leaving a marriage does not constitute abandonment of ones's children either. :scratchhead:


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

2long said:


> A far better distinction would be between "nice" and "kind."
> 
> Your example of nice isn't. Nice is playing the pick-me dance, ignoring the affair and hoping it will go away, and walking on eggshells. Advising someone 2 be wary of the door hitting them on their way 2 the curb is a kindness.
> 
> -ol' 2long


Semantics.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> We'll just have to agree to disagree. Saying that cheaters do not love their spouses is unsupportable. Reconciliations do happen. Do they happen if one spouse does not love the other? In fact I believe that most cheaters DO love their spouses. They just feel that their marriages are not complete. Am I condoning cheating when I say this? Absolutely not.


It isn't the marriage that is incomplete, it is the person who rationalizes that they must cheat 2 be happy who is incomplete.



> You are once again making an unsupportable assumption. There are many folks in the US who simply cannot afford a divorce. These are the many people living on the fringe of poverty.
> 
> We've had this in threads on TAM. In once case the H and the W had staggered their working hours so that one of them could always be home for the young children. For various reasons they wanted to divorce. They could not afford two apartments and day care even with two jobs.
> 
> Not everyone has a couple of hundred thou in the bank.


Couple hundred thou?? My wife and I had been married 30 years and 3 properties and a family trust when I called bullsh!t on her continued contact and called a divorce mediator. We had a consultation 2gether. He said that we could be divorced for ~$5000 if we worked 2gether, or ~$50000 if we hired our own lawyers and fought over our stuff. People who've been married a short time or have few assets and low income would likely pay far less than $5000.

Even a rich couple would be better off paying for a divorce than patching up a broken marriage.

We recovered, but only because my wife finally unders2d that I was ready 2 end our marriage.

-ol' 2long


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

Pluto2 said:


> If you want to believe that you love your spouse when you engage in an act of infidelity, go right ahead. You can try to make yourself believe anything I suppose. This has nothing to do with R after the A has ended which is an entirely different subject.
> 
> With all due respect Sidney I am not making assumptions, supportable or not. The decision to stay married or to divorce is a choice. There are always consequences. It remains a choice. Sometimes the choice seems easy, and other times not so much.


I'm sure that my wife believed that she loved me during her affair. I know that she couldn't, though. The thing is that most of these kinds of philanderers believe that love is a feeling, rather than a conscious choice 2 love, honor, cherish, respect. 

-ol' 2long


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Below taken from a post by Velocet.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by sidney2718
> Point 1: Cheating often is NOT chosen as a method of leaving one's spouse. It is chosen for other reasons. Many cheaters still love their spouses.
> 
> ...


Too bad I didn't write that last bit about cheaters using their spouses for their own financial advantage. There are over 46 million Americans living below the poverty line. That means that a family of four has an income of LESS than $24,000 per year. I don't think one can run two households on that kind of money.

As for borrowing it, most folks below the poverty line can't borrow anything.

I'm glad it worked out for you in your situation. I really am. I wish you luck.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

sandc said:


> My son has autism. I've seen a lot of spousal abandonment in the autism community. I don't like it one bit. I wouldn't label this man you speak of who is seeking "comfort" outside his marriage a monster... *as long as* he afforded his wife the same opportunity to receive this outside "comfort".
> 
> For religious reasons I would not associate with either one of these people.


Nor would I. And I have an autistic nephew whose father did NOT leave.


----------



## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> It should be obvious. This forum is entitled "Coping With Infidelity". *Coping with infidelity goes both ways ...both the betrayed spouse and the wayward spouse have to learn how to deal with the destruction of infidelity. This forum is not exclusively for the betrayed spouse only..*If you are an adulterer posting in this forum, you should not be surprised to encounter resistance or hostility. You should have thick skin.* May i remind you that even though i cheated on MY HUSBAND.... I have done nothing to you or anyone else here. Your hostility should not be toward me but toward the spouse that betrayed you. *
> 
> 
> Willingness to accept responsibility; remorse, and reformation all deserve consideration. But expecting others to blindly accept your eminence?*I have never expected anyone here to blindly accept my eminence....because i don't care. I am not here asking for your approval. I have done what i need to do for my spouse....that's all that matters.*




Well put Mrs.Adams


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

I had originally written:



> Yes it is. No argument there. But it isn't quite fair to tune into the last episode of a long running drama and decide which characters are right and which are wrong.
> 
> Marriages are complex things. Years of argument, browbeating, and at times physical violence occur. Sometimes the drama of real life finds its relief in a friend to whom one can vent. There is nothing wrong with venting to a friend.
> 
> ...





2long said:


> Damned straight he is.
> 
> Why is that so hard 2 understand?
> 
> -ol' 2long


Keeping folks on the subject is like herding cats.

My point was that there are things that are as bad as infidelity or even worse. My example of a family with a special needs child just happens to be realistic.

I was setting up a comparison between a guy who simply divorces his wife because of the special needs child and a guy who stays with his wife even though he may have a special friend on the outside.

Some here would probably say that the firsts guy who simply divorces his wife is OK because he didn't cheat. And the second guy was awful because he likely cheated.

Others would say that the first guy is a rat, having stuck his now ex-wife with a problem child who will likely be with her all her life while the second guy was at least decent enough to stick around and help.

Note that the first group focused on the cheating ONLY. The second focused on both the special needs child and the cheating.

My suspicion, developed out of what I've seen in my life, is that the wife would prefer the second husband, feeling that abandonment was worse than cheating IN THIS CASE.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Riley_Z said:


> There is no tolerable explanation for infidelity. Reason, explanation, excuse, motive.. it's all the same BS.
> 
> In my opinion if you try to explain your behavior you are moving in the wrong direction.
> 
> ...


You have heard legitimate explanations. You just haven't heard one that you would accept as an explanation.

Please try to understand what I'm about to say. You are talking about explanations. What you are reacting to are excuses. Explanations are not excuses. And excuses are often not explanations.

Try not to confuse the two.

Consider: a couple has a DDay. There is infidelity. That's a point in time. At that point there is no excuse for the infidelity. It is all on the cheater. I think we can all agree to that.

But you can't leave it there in suspended animation. What happens next? That's where things become difficult. The couple will either reconcile or divorce. How do they chose -- and I say "they" because it takes two to reconcile and only one to divorce.

That choice is what I've been talking about. Divorce is easy. The BS can just do it. Nothing to worry about. Of course the BS might ask the WS WHY they cheated, but as you say above, most BS's won't accept what the WS says. There's not much else to say about divorce.

Now reconciliation is another story. It is complex. For it to work a number of things have to happen. Some BS's want the WS to grovel and beg. I personally don't believe in that because I believe in the dignity of all human beings. Other BS's want other things. But the reconciliation won't work unless BOTH spouses are on board.

And for that to happen, the WS has to change, but most often, so does the BS. THAT is the bit that most BS's do not want to hear. Their spouse cheated so that means that they don't have to do anything, they think.

Sometimes that works. Often it does not. It takes two to tango and both have to learn the steps.

See where I'm coming from?


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

2long said:


> A far better distinction would be between "nice" and "kind."
> 
> Your example of nice isn't. Nice is playing the pick-me dance, ignoring the affair and hoping it will go away, and walking on eggshells. Advising someone 2 be wary of the door hitting them on their way 2 the curb is a kindness.
> 
> -ol' 2long


We'll just have to differ on word usage in English.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

2long said:


> he rationalizes that it's better for him 2 lie and cheat 2 get what he wants, than it is 2 be honest with himself and his family, and making a healthy selfless choice.
> 
> -ol' 2long


I gather that by that last you mean get divorced?

If you go over to the sex in marriage thread you will find a number of cases of sexless marriages where the spouse does NOT want to divorce but also does NOT want a sexless marriage. It is a common thing and folks are often of two minds about it.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

2long said:


> I'm sure that my wife believed that she loved me during her affair. I know that she couldn't, though. The thing is that most of these kinds of philanderers believe that love is a feeling, rather than a conscious choice 2 love, honor, cherish, respect.
> 
> -ol' 2long


I'd not want to put "love is a conscious choice" up for a vote here. Most of us have been bitten by it out of the blue.


----------



## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> It should be obvious. This forum is entitled "Coping With Infidelity". *Coping with infidelity goes both ways ...both the betrayed spouse and the wayward spouse have to learn how to deal with the destruction of infidelity. This forum is not exclusively for the betrayed spouse only..*If you are an adulterer posting in this forum, you should not be surprised to encounter resistance or hostility. You should have thick skin.* May i remind you that even though i cheated on MY HUSBAND.... I have done nothing to you or anyone else here. Your hostility should not be toward me but toward the spouse that betrayed you. *
> 
> 
> Willingness to accept responsibility; remorse, and reformation all deserve consideration. But expecting others to blindly accept your eminence?*I have never expected anyone here to blindly accept my eminence....because i don't care. I am not here asking for your approval. I have done what i need to do for my spouse....that's all that matters.*


"I have done nothing...." What a haughty hoot.

Nah, you'd rather just pop off with indignant responses about stoning and execution for cheaters, followed up by belittling comments toward the betrayed whenever someone mentions a lack of integrity or empathy in cheaters.


----------



## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Forest said:


> "I have done nothing...." What a haughty hoot.
> 
> Nah, you'd rather just pop off with indignant responses about stoning and execution for cheaters, followed up by belittling comments toward the betrayed whenever someone mentions a lack of integrity or empathy in cheaters.


Mrs. Adams is making a point. Instead of popping off to the ws here, grow a set and talk to your own ws. We are both here, we are fine. Many of the BS here seem to want to take their frustrations out on the WS here who have the balls to post.


----------



## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

johnAdams said:


> Mrs. Adams is making a point. Instead of popping off to the ws here, grow a set and talk to your own ws. We are both here, we are fine. Many of athe BS here seem to want to take their frustrations off on the WS here who have the balls to post.


You do understand that what started all this was someone posting that cheaters lacked integrity and empathy on page 1. Anything terribly hateful in that? NO. Yet Mrs. JA then has to get snarky and post about stoning, putting to death, and that BS must all be absolved of all sins. Yeah, that's hateful.

Since then, everything downhill. Is that a point I can make? Now you must pop in about growing a set, and you know nothing of anyone's situation. We've all talked to our WS. We don't need guidance there.

Its right back to owning the responsibility for your actions. You can't broadside and belittle people, then play the "I've done nothing card".

Sure, emotions are raw around here. That's why making snide and coarse remarks toward faithful spouses can get a little prickly.


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Forest said:


> "I have done nothing...." What a haughty hoot.
> 
> Nah, you'd rather just pop off with indignant responses about stoning and execution for cheaters, followed up by belittling comments toward the betrayed whenever someone mentions a lack of integrity or empathy in cheaters.


I have never experienced infidelity first hand, one way or the other, so excuse my lack of expertise on the matter, I am trying to learn. What is the correct way to cope with infidelity? Stoning is not a serious option anymore (and didn't work). The options that my inexperienced self sees are, divorce or don't divorce, right? How should I cope if my wife betrays me, and should I expect any different from her if I should?

Should it happen one way or the other what is the right way to handle it?


----------



## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Forest said:


> You do understand that what started all this was someone posting that cheaters lacked integrity and empathy on page 1. Anything terribly hateful in that? NO. Yet Mrs. JA then has to get snarky and post about stoning, putting to death, and that BS must all be absolved of all sins. Yeah, that's hateful.
> 
> Since then, everything downhill. Is that a point I can make? Now you must pop in about growing a set, and you know nothing of anyone's situation. We've all talked to our WS. We don't need guidance there.
> 
> ...


Oh brother....get a life.....


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> You have heard legitimate explanations. You just haven't heard one that you would accept as an explanation.
> 
> Please try to understand what I'm about to say. You are talking about explanations. What you are reacting to are excuses. Explanations are not excuses. And excuses are often not explanations.
> 
> ...


Both the WS and the BS have to own all that they brought to the marriage. What seems common is that both partners were faced with misery before one partner chose to stray. What must a WS do to repair the character defects that allowed such a betrayal? In fact, this work is so daunting that very few choose to pursue it. I believe most WS construct a series of boundaries that may make a second betrayal unlikely. You see, the deeper we are able to wound another precisely proscribes the depth to which the WS must look inside themselves to heal. If you were to engage a partner at an emotionally shallow level, infidelity might not be as affecting. But when you place your unguarded heart is someone's hands and love without reserve, infidelity wounds the soul. One partner needs to build a castle, the other needs to levitate an island... Hardly the same dance(?)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> How so? That seems like an incredibly ignorant remark.


Ignorant? I base my statement on what you yourself said about your previous wife deserving 2 suffer, and I wondered what might happen 2 your current wife if she doesn't satisfy you somehow at some fu2re date.

-ol' 2long


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> I had originally written:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was once asked whether I'd rather be hanged or guillotined. I told her I'd rather eat ice cream.

-ol' 2long


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

The U.N Security Council is holding an emergency meeting regarding this thread. The world is praying for a resolution that avoids bloodshed.








Relax folks.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2long View Post
he rationalizes that it's better for him 2 lie and cheat 2 get what he wants, than it is 2 be honest with himself and his family, and making a healthy selfless choice.

-ol' 2long


> I gather that by that last you mean get divorced?


Or not cheat, yes. Cheating is the coward's option.



> If you go over to the sex in marriage thread you will find a number of cases of sexless marriages where the spouse does NOT want to divorce but also does NOT want a sexless marriage. It is a common thing and folks are often of two minds about it.


Remember that part about "in sickness and in health"? Most people have that in their vows. What if there's a medical reason for the sexlessness? 

Why don't vows also include "As long as we both shall feel like it", instead of "as long as we both shall live?" 

There's serious integrity in the latter. Not so much in the former, which is what most vows are apparently unilaterally retranslated into.

-ol' 2long


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> I'd not want to put "love is a conscious choice" up for a vote here. Most of us have been bitten by it out of the blue.


I have no clue what you mean.

-ol' 2long


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Riley_Z said:


> It's not a constructive or legitimate response to whatever the problem is you face, so you lose all credibility.
> 
> 
> I have yet to hear one single explanation that is of any value to the infidelity discussion.


I've got one. There is absolutely a reason waywards decided to cheat.

They wanted to.


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> You have heard legitimate explanations. You just haven't heard one that you would accept as an explanation.


No, I have never heard a legitimate explanation. We are just into semantics at this point anyways.

In my opinion there is no legitimate explanation for infidelity taking place. Zero.



sidney2718 said:


> Please try to understand what I'm about to say. You are talking about explanations. What you are reacting to are excuses. Explanations are not excuses. And excuses are often not explanations.


Please try to understand? Gee, that's what my husband tried to con me with.

There is nothing to understand.

Explanations are just highly decorated excuses. Semantics again.



sidney2718 said:


> Try not to confuse the two.


I don't think I am confusing anything. I think you are just trying to drum up excuses for bad behavior, just like a cheater does.



sidney2718 said:


> Consider: a couple has a DDay. There is infidelity. That's a point in time. At that point there is no excuse for the infidelity. It is all on the cheater. I think we can all agree to that.


There is never a legitimate explanation no.



sidney2718 said:


> But you can't leave it there in suspended animation. What happens next? That's where things become difficult. The couple will either reconcile or divorce. How do they chose -- and I say "they" because it takes two to reconcile and only one to divorce.


So what? What does that have to do with a legitimate explanation for infidelity? You say try to understand and then you go into talking about reconciliation which is a whole other topic.



sidney2718 said:


> That choice is what I've been talking about. Divorce is easy. The BS can just do it. Nothing to worry about. Of course the BS might ask the WS WHY they cheated, but as you say above, most BS's won't accept what the WS says. There's not much else to say about divorce.


That's because there is no why that would explain it. It's all just tap dancing.

I have never heard a legitimate explanation for infidelity. Zero. And you can't seem to drum up one either.



sidney2718 said:


> Now reconciliation is another story. It is complex. For it to work a number of things have to happen. Some BS's want the WS to grovel and beg. I personally don't believe in that because I believe in the dignity of all human beings. Other BS's want other things. But the reconciliation won't work unless BOTH spouses are on board.


Again what does this have to do with the price of tea in china?

It doesn't.

I said this before. You are addressing a whole other topic.



sidney2718 said:


> And for that to happen, the WS has to change, but most often, so does the BS. THAT is the bit that most BS's do not want to hear. Their spouse cheated so that means that they don't have to do anything, they think.


No. To my mind the betrayed spouse does not have to do a damn thing until the wayward spouse rebuilds the trust they have beaten into the critical care unit.

To my mind the betrayed spouse needs to just sit back.

But this is a whole other subject anyways.



sidney2718 said:


> Sometimes that works. Often it does not. It takes two to tango and both have to learn the steps.


I am sick of hearing that two to tango crap. I don't see any reason why a betrayed spouse should have to do a damn thing until they are convinced a wayward spouse is serious about change.

I would never advocate a betrayed spouse investing further into a marriage until the wayward spouse has done some independent work on their own to rebuild trust.



sidney2718 said:


> See where I'm coming from?


No I don't. Your comments have nothing to do with what I said earlier. You are addressing a whole other subject entirely.


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

Gabriel said:


> I've got one. There is absolutely a reason waywards decided to cheat.
> 
> They wanted to.


I assume this is in jest, but I don't find much humor in it.

There is no reason.

Nada.


----------



## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

I think what's being missed here whether intentionally or accidentally is WS are human beings and like any human being can make bad life decisions but that doesn't mean they have to let those bad decisions define who they are or who they want to be we are the accumulation of all of the work we put on ourselves and that work is what defines who we are. 


if my post is off topic I apologize I just wanted to get that off my chest.


PS: this will be my last post in CWI I came here to learn,listen and if possible help but its become to argumentative with a lack of empathy for other whose opinions may differ it's starting to become an intellectual miasma and frankly I'm done. I wish everyone here truly the best...


----------



## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

CharlieParker said:


> I have never experienced infidelity first hand, one way or the other, so excuse my lack of expertise on the matter, I am trying to learn. What is the correct way to cope with infidelity? Stoning is not a serious option anymore (and didn't work). The options that my inexperienced self sees are, divorce or don't divorce, right? How should I cope if my wife betrays me, and should I expect any different from her if I should?
> 
> Should it happen one way or the other what is the right way to handle it?


The only answer to all these questions, is that there is no one answer. That's why all this crap is going on now. And who would have the answer? Someone who's been unfaithful? 

A lot of mess for a completely avoidable and irresponsible activity.


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

xakulax said:


> I think what's being missed here whether intentionally or accidentally is WS are human beings and like any human being can make bad life decisions but that doesn't mean they have to let those bad decisions define who they are or who they want to be we are the accumulation of all of the work we put on ourselves and that work is what defines who we are.
> 
> 
> if my post is off topic I apologize I just wanted to get that off my chest.
> ...


Sorry you are leaving the thread.

I agree that WS are simply human beings, and yes humans make bad choices.
I would respectfully disagree that those choices "doesn't mean they have to let those bad decisions define who they are or who they want to be" The choices any of us make in life are, by definition, the sum of who we are. Infidelity may or may not define the WS for ever. Again, what they do with their choice is up to them. Learn from their bad choice and make amends, or not. What they cannot do, is shift the blame/responsibility/guilt/burden to the BS.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Riley_Z said:


> I assume this is in jest, but I don't find much humor in it.
> 
> There is no reason.
> 
> Nada.


It was not made in jest. There is no other reason. My point is, people cheat because they want to.

So then the next question is WHY DID YOU WANT TO CHEAT?

And that's the rub. That's what people spend pages and pages trying to determine. It's natural, and frankly, the whole friggin' point of many of these threads. People want to know why their spouses wanted to cheat. And what, if anything, they can do about it.

Your draconian mindset on this issue is completely unproductive. Why be here at all?


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

Gabriel said:


> It was not made in jest. There is no other reason. My point is, people cheat because they want to.
> 
> So then the next question is WHY DID YOU WANT TO CHEAT?
> 
> ...


All you are addressing is ownership.

As I said before, any explanation offered is just tap dancing nonsense.

There is no legitimate explanation.

What I find unproductive is attaching "explanations" to ownership.

In my opinion the most sincere response to getting busted is simply to own it and not say another word.

As soon as you add even one more syllable onto your ownership you run the risk of sounding like you are blame-shifting, avoiding consequences, etc.

"Yes, I cheated, I own it... but I was lonely..."

"Yes, I cheated, but we never have sex anymore..."

"Yes, I cheated, but she kept coming on to me..."

"Yes, I cheated, but my mother just died..."

As soon as you add an explanation/excuse/description/content of any sort the ownership loses sincerity.

I honestly think it's best to just say nothing. In my opinion the most productive response is to simply own it and not try to explain the unexplainable.

Cheating your spouse is bad enough, don't insult them with some pathetic excuse when you get busted. Give them at least that much credit.

There is honestly nothing you can say. So why insult your spouse tap dancing?

In my opinion there is no "why" that can better the situation. Any "why" offered just shifts blame and distorts the fact that the choice to cheat was an unproductive/nonconstructive/illegitimate response.

Don't get me wrong, I do realize marriages have problems, as do individuals. People face one crisis after another in their lives and we have to get through them. This is often the explanation that people try to attach to their cheating. But in my opinion to attach any explanation to your cheating just in-dignifies your marriage and your spouse further.

In my opinion cheating and whatever life crises you face at the time of those bad choices ought to be addressed in separate conversations so as not to suggest the two are at all causally related. If you attach your life crises to your cheating you are avoiding ownership of your behavior. You can't say "I own it, I cheated... but I was dealing with a lot at the time..." 

As soon as you add that "but" on there, you have rejected ownership and tread into a whole other place that further in-dignifies you and your spouse.

If, after ownership and trust are rebuilt, spouses want to discuss what their marriage and their lives felt like when the cheating behavior started that's a whole other discussion for a whole other time.

I do not believe that it's at all productive to get into that discussion until the infidelity is resolved and trust is rebuilt. I do not think it is at all productive to rush into a state of the union conversation right on the tail of getting busted for infidelity. Those are two entirely different problem items that ought to be addressed. Those two items ought to be addressed independently as possible. And in the right order.

In some cases the betrayed spouse is not even in the right state of mind for the state of the union conversation. Rushing into that after getting busted is not the time for it. Nor should they be put into the position of having to address that in the same conversation as their spouses choice to betray them. Separate discussions. The state of the union discussion may not even be necessary if the betrayed spouse decides to exit. And they would have every right to do so.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Riley_Z said:


> There is honestly nothing you can say. So why insult your spouse tap dancing?


This screams for the response: Speak for yourself.

Whether divorcing or reconciling, many BS need some kind of answer to the Why in order to move ahead with their lives. If it makes you feel any better, substitute "WTF were you thinking?" for "Why did you cheat?" The answer, whatever it is, is not to be taken as a "legitimate explanation" or a "reason." The WS may truly be unable to give an answer as to WTF they were thinking. Not every attempt to answer WTF were you thinking needs to be regarded as an attempt at justification, either. These answers do not need to have a "but" attached to them. 

I personally found it more insulting to have "WTF were you thinking?" answered by nothing more than a shoulder shrug than by any number of lame attempts at justification.


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

Philat said:


> This screams for the response: Speak for yourself.
> 
> Whether divorcing or reconciling, many BS need some kind of answer to the Why in order to move ahead with their lives. If it makes you feel any better, substitute "WTF were you thinking?" for "Why did you cheat?" The answer, whatever it is, is not to be taken as a "legitimate explanation" or a "reason." The WS may truly be unable to give an answer as to WTF they were thinking. Not every attempt to answer WTF were you thinking needs to be regarded as an attempt at justification, either. These answers do not need to have a "but" attached to them.
> 
> I personally found it more insulting to have "WTF were you thinking?" answered by nothing more than a shoulder shrug than by any number of lame attempts at justification.


I do think couples who decide to reconcile need to have a discussion about the state of the marriage when the infidelity started. But in my opinion that is a whole separate conversation unrelated to the infidelity taking place.

Two separate discussions for two separate times.

Introducing that discussion as a "why" just rejects ownership. You can't say "yes I own it... but my dog just died" etc.. that does not work.

I think it's just best to own it and help your spouse through the panic, the trauma, and whatever else they are feeling.

I do not think attaching the infidelity ownership and the state of the union conversation together is a productive move at all.

I do think both discussions may be productive if the couple chooses to reconcile, but not one on the tail end of the other, which is often how it happens.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Riley_Z said:


> All you are addressing is ownership.
> 
> As I said before, any explanation offered is just tap dancing nonsense.
> 
> ...


Thank you for articulating your position. I understand it better now. 

Some BS do want the answer to "why". You and I may have hindsight knowledge that the "but" put at the end of "I cheated", cheapens the marriage further, or whatever.

But in the moment, the BS doesn't really know that, usually. They need to feed on explanations. They need to know why. Sometimes it's because they want to know what they did wrong (put aside it's not their fault for a minute). Other times it's so they can take that "explanation" and use it to decide whether to kick their cheating spouse to the curb. The BS wants information, in any form, to get their head around this horrible thing that just happened to them.

While reasons given by the WS really don't cut the mustard, it's what the BS craves anyway. Whether they feel "better" or not is up to them, not us.

So I agree with much of what you are saying, Riley, and for YOU explanations don't mean squat. But others need them, and they use that information to assess their situation.


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

Gabriel said:


> Thank you for articulating your position. I understand it better now.
> 
> Some BS do want the answer to "why". You and I may have hindsight knowledge that the "but" put at the end of "I cheated", cheapens the marriage further, or whatever.
> 
> ...


Just because the BS wants a "why" does not mean it's a good idea to in-dignify the situation further by attaching the state of the union conversation to infidelity.

Betrayed spouses want a good why, a why that they believe will take away the trauma.

It won't help. It actually just shifts blame, either in inadvertently or in most cases deliberately.

In my opinion its best to just apologize and help them through the trauma for the time being (in most cases the wayward can't even bother to do that and rushes into the why to avoid accountability).

I think offering a why, a state of the union conversation too early just feeds the BS' eagerness to make a decision when their mind is not clear enough to do so. And it also allows a wayward to shift blame. Even invites them to do so. Keeping the conversations separate to my mind ensures that the wayward understands their ownership is 100%. And most do not think it is. Most waywards are very eager to blame something. And you want to feed that by introducing the state of the union discussion?

Not a good idea.

I honestly think it's better to just apologize and tell them there is no why, there is no explanation ... because in all honesty there isn't.

There is no why I cheated. There is a state of the union discussion, and there is a infidelity ownership discussion... I do not think it is in the best interest of the betrayed spouse to confuse the two, or to merge them into the same discussion.

I understand a BS wants to feel better, but I do not think it is in their best interest to have those two conversations merged. And they will allow it in many cases due to their traumatized state of mind.

Many spouses on D-Day cannot think straight. Many are in no shape to deal with the state of the union discussion.

And I really don't see the point in having the state of the union discussion until the infidelity is resolved and trust/dignity/respect is rebuilt.

Once the BS has a clearer head and they can make some decisions if they want to R, then put a trust-building plan together. I do not think it is in the best interest of a BS to rush that state of the union discussion.

They want a why to feel better. There is no why that will make them feel better. Offering a why on the heels of betrayal just distorts the ownership into blameshifting.

It happens far too often that the wrong person or thing or event gets blamed for the affair happening.

Keep the conversations separate.




Gabriel said:


> So I agree with much of what you are saying, Riley, and for YOU explanations don't mean squat. But others need them, and they use that information to assess their situation.


I don't think there's a need to shout. You can introduce relativism into this if you want to, but in my opinion the treatment plan I am laying out here applies to every betrayed spouse, not just me alone.

As I said above, despite a BS needing some explanation, there isn't one that will help. And in my opinion offering a state of the union discussion too early obscures ownership. There is far too much blame shifting and trickle truth in most cases. I do not think it's at all productive to get into a state of the union discussion until after trust and respect is rebuilt (if the BS even wants to do that). For me or anyone.

The BS just wants to feel better. And in their state of mind have the naive idea that a "why" will do that. All a "why" does is obscure ownership and shift blame.

Most BS are not in a state of mind to be making any assessments of their situation, much less hearing discussions about the state of their marriage when they are facing this kind of nonsense. I do not think that is at all productive for any BS. They want to feel better. I do not think it is in their best interest to have a state of the union discussion at that time no.

_In my opinion rushing the state of the union discussion is an all around bad idea for any couple facing the trauma of infidelity.
_


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Riley_Z said:


> Just because the BS wants a "why" does not mean it's a good idea to in-dignify the situation further by attaching the state of the union conversation to infidelity.
> 
> Betrayed spouses want a good why, a why that they believe will take away the trauma.
> 
> ...


Easier said than done. The BS will want to know why whether it's healthy for them or not.

On my DDay, I knew why already. My wife actually warned me that if I didn't step up in our marriage, someone else might fill in the gaps. And when I didn't step up, someone did (for the record, it was an EA only, no PA).

Most people here don't get direct instructions/warnings like I did. So to me, the "why" was clear. And it wasn't one of those going backwards and rewriting marriage history excuses. It was "Hey Gabriel, if you don't fix A, then B might happen." And I didn't fix A for a long time.

See, not every situation fits in a box. And I'm not trying to apply an absolute to everyone. I'm actually speaking from my own life experience here. I didn't need to ask why. I knew.


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

Gabriel said:


> Easier said than done. The BS will want to know why whether it's healthy for them or not.
> 
> On my DDay, I knew why already. My wife actually warned me that if I didn't step up in our marriage, someone else might fill in the gaps. And when I didn't step up, someone did (for the record, it was an EA only, no PA).
> 
> ...


It's an illegitimate why anyway.

Sorry, but infidelity is not the appropriate response to martial disatisfaction.

I wouldn't have even stepped up the marriage with that ultimatum. I would have addressed the subject then and there that infidelity is not a legitimate response. I would simply have told her "if you think that's the mature response to the situation you know where the door is."

If you don't like your marriage, then exit, but there is no need to cheat. It is not in any way productive.

And whether a BS wants to know why doesn't matter. It's not in their best interest to get one until well after the infidelity is resolved.

Sorry, but just because someone wants an explanation doesn't mean you indignify your marriage further by offering one.

I honestly believe "there is no explanation" is the best explanation you can offer. It's the most mature, sincere, and productive explanation you can give them.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Riley, the problem is that you're imposing an ideal standard on a messy reality. Your expectation would require that anyone who cheats research the best way to handle disclosure prior to cheating, which is a delusional idea at best. The BS would also have to preprare in advance to avoid asking the "why" question and focus the discussion in channels you deem appropriate. Good luck with that!

If someone is as mature and sincere as you seem to expect, odds are they wouldn't have cheated in the first place.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Riley_Z said:


> I wouldn't have even stepped up the marriage with that ultimatum. I would have addressed the subject then and there that infidelity is not a legitimate response. I would simply have told her "if you think that's the mature response to the situation you know where the door is."
> 
> I would normally agree - in my case this was her being desperate, after multiple attempts to wake me up in other ways. While I don't condone her using this threat, I do understand it in our situation.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> Riley, the problem is that you're imposing an ideal standard on a messy reality. Your expectation would require that anyone who cheats research the best way to handle disclosure prior to cheating, which is a delusional idea at best. The BS would also have to preprare in advance to avoid asking the "why" question and focus the discussion in channels you deem appropriate. Good luck with that!
> 
> If someone is as mature and sincere as you seem to expect, odds are they wouldn't have cheated in the first place.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Bingo


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I agree that the choice to cheat is wrong and there are better options. I only take issue with it because its written as though the betrayed is 100% good and the cheater is 100% bad. I just think most relationships are more complicated than this.


This is a knee jerk reaction typical of people who are cheaters or who sympathize with cheaters. I've typed this before, and I'll type it again. NOBODY IS PERFECT. Humans are imperfect by their very nature. Also, "perfection" is completely subjective. It has nothing to do with infidelity and the destruction it causes.

Nobody is claiming BS spouses are perfect. What does that even mean, anyway?


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> I would venture to say that the same sentiment applies to egotistical, arrogant, condescending, narcissistic fools who have ridiculously over inflated egos. I hear there is an awful lot of that going around!
> 
> The problem with educating stupid people is that they don't know they're stupid.


Wow, hit a nerve did I? Careful with that inflated sense of superior intelligence over others.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> Love, but not IN LOVE. I think a WS can love their BS while cheating. It's called compartmentalization.
> 
> But I don't think they can be IN LOVE with them while doing it. That would cause hard drives to explode.


Then there is no point in being married if you are not "in love".

Plain old run of the mill "love", kind of like that you'd feel for a sibling, is not reason enough to stay married.

So do we want to change it to "in love"? Fine, there is no way someone can be "in love" with the person they F'd over in one of the worst ways.


----------



## Riley_Z (Jan 29, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Riley, the problem is that you're imposing an ideal standard on a messy reality.


That sounds something like what my husband said when i busted him.

Sorry, I call BS on that.

What I laid out can be done, and it's better for everyone to do it that way.

It's not unrealistic at all.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You're entitled to your BS opinion too!


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

doubletrouble said:


> C'mon Vell, you're a smart person; I've seen you post wiser stuff.
> 
> So alcoholics and cheaters and addicts and murderers are always in this category, no matter whether they pay their dues to society or their betrayed spouse?


Yes.

Anyone that is an alcoholic or addict will tell you that they will always be one. They can be sober for the rest of their days and go on to lead good lives, but they still are alcoholics and addicts.

Murderers? Yup, they can pay their debt to society, but they are still murderers. 

Now cheaters? They can pay their debt to their "loved one" and move on with them as a couple on the forum have done.

TO ME, they will still be cheaters. That's the rule *I* live by. Doesn't have to be for everyone. I live by that rule because that is MY preference.




> But it doesn't have to define you forever.


If it doesn't define that person for them, then that is what it is.

It also doesn't have to define that person for others. 

And for some it does define that person. It all depends on the view of the individual. Again, FOR ME, it defines that person. I'm not saying that person isn't NOW a good person, or even someone I might be friends with. But I won't date someone I have known to cheat in the past. 
So again, FOR ME, it defines that person.

I'll give you an example. Mrs. JA. She is a wonderful person. Her and JA are doing their thing, living a good marriage.

If I knew Mrs. JA IRL and she wasn't married, would I date her? No. But I'd like her in general as a person. Again, the rule *I* live by.


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Riley_Z said:


> All you are addressing is ownership.
> 
> As I said before, any explanation offered is just tap dancing nonsense.
> 
> There is no legitimate explanation.


I was cheated on in my first marriage. Maybe repeatedly.

She left me spontaneously one day and wouldn't give me a reason. I have since learned about the infidelity and surmise that she couldn't fess up.

But it would have helped me a lot to have her tell me _why_. Still, today, I want to know why.

Not so she can shift the blame to me. Not so I can take responsibility for her actions. Not so she could justify it. Not for any of that other nonsense.

Because it would help with a sense of closure. It would help me make sense of the pain. And it would help me learn.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Riley_Z is a recurring permanently banned account. And she wasn't a she.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Riley_Z is a recurring permanently banned account. And she wasn't a she.


Oh my! Did it nip or tuck?


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Odd that someone can rant and rave about betrayal and deception and then can't take the hint that our relationship isn't working out ... so they pretend to be someone else.

Isn't that ... 'cheating'?

We have several that come back and resolve themselves to behave. But those folks are in the minority. They usually can't keep a lid on what got them banned in the first place.

You'd be surprised at how often this happens here.


----------



## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Reminds me of Badblood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> Mrs. Adams is making a point. Instead of popping off to the ws here, grow a set and talk to your own ws. We are both here, we are fine. Many of the BS here seem to want to take their frustrations out on the WS here who have the balls to post.


Well MJA is one of the xWS's I admire, and it took a while for me to come to that kind of feeling towards someone that cheated.

You and MJA are right. She and the other WS's are not our spouses, or in my case, x-WS.

But you have to understand, they ARE someone just LIKE the people we had to deal with in real life and sometimes what people say, whether BS or WS, stirs up emotions just the same.

I'd never pop off at MJA though. She is one of the rare ones I truly admire. I hope you two continue to make the best of your lives together!


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

There seem to be a few subthreads to this conversation and I am not sure I have followed them all, but I will chime in to agree that unless the reason your spouse had an affair was that you were in fact a jerk trying to "nice them out" of the affair is a terrible tactic, whatever outcome you desire. Now you are kind of validating this other relationship by competing for your spouse's affection. It's intuitive, but desperate and terrible. And soul destructive. Now, if you were a total ass and that is why your spouse sought affection elsewhere, yeah, maybe be less of an ass.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Riley_Z said:


> I do think couples who decide to reconcile need to have a discussion about the state of the marriage when the infidelity started. But in my opinion that is a whole separate conversation unrelated to the infidelity taking place.
> 
> Two separate discussions for two separate times.


I agree. The marital problems, if there were any aside from the cheater just being fickle, need to be addressed.

But ONLY after the infidelity has been properly dealt with. The marital problems need to, IMO, take a back seat until the BS can think clearly and not be so consumed with the fallout of the bomb the WS dropped on them.


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Harken Banks said:


> There seem to be a few subthreads to this conversation and I am not sure I have followed them all, but I will chime in to agree that unless the reason your spouse had an affair was that you were in fact a jerk trying to "nice them out" of the affair is a terrible tactic, whatever outcome you desire. Now you are kind of validating this other relationship by competing for your spouse's affection. It's intuitive, but desperate and terrible. And soul destructive. Now, if you were a total ass and that is why your spouse sought affection elsewhere, yeah, maybe be less of an ass.


HB, this is essentially what my BIL has been doing with my SIL. Competing with the OM and your right, it's been soul crushing for him. I'm sure she's just loving it. She has played with his emotions, telling him one day that she want's to come home and then the next day she changes her mind. What's he fighting for? After two and half years of this stuff, I don't know how he can even love her anymore.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Harken Banks said:


> There seem to be a few subthreads to this conversation and I am not sure I have followed them all, but I will chime in to agree that unless the reason your spouse had an affair was that you were in fact a jerk trying to "nice them out" of the affair is a terrible tactic, whatever outcome you desire. Now you are kind of validating this other relationship by competing for your spouse's affection. It's intuitive, but desperate and terrible. And soul destructive. Now, if you were a total ass and that is why your spouse sought affection elsewhere, yeah, maybe be less of an ass.


By the way, this is exactly what I did. I stood in disbelief. I collapsed in disbelief. I begged. I pleaded. I cried. I asked how and why. I gave gifts, I sought intimacy and even just conversation. I also sought the truth, which I should have known (everyone else did), but just could not bring myself to believe. All of this drove her further away or maybe more accurately emboldened her in defiance and disdain.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Riley, the problem is that you're imposing an ideal standard on a messy reality. Your expectation would require that anyone who cheats research the best way to handle disclosure prior to cheating, which is a delusional idea at best. The BS would also have to preprare in advance to avoid asking the "why" question and focus the discussion in channels you deem appropriate. Good luck with that!
> 
> If someone is as mature and sincere as you seem to expect, odds are they wouldn't have cheated in the first place.


The real problem is that Riley is imposing _his_ idea of the ideal standard. Who says that Riley's way is _the_ way for _every_ other BS, or even _any_ other BS? If it worked for him and he is satisfied with the result, that's great. But, for him to repeatedly and emphatically state that because it worked for him, that it is the right way for everyone else, whether they believe it or not, is quite simply an arrogant notion. Philat has already stated that he wanted to hear what his wife had to say. 

Whether you call it an explanation, excuses, or justifications, there are always reasons that people cheat. Always. A point that I've, personally, never seen addressed in this forum is that the BS is not the only spouse who has a decision to make with regard to reconciliation or divorce. A WS has the same decision to make. It takes two committed and willing spouses for there to be any hope of a successful reconciliation, but only one to choose divorce. If the WS is the spouse choosing divorce, and the BS does not wish to divorce, then those reasons are going to have to be addressed.

Not in every marriage, but in some marriages, infidelity occurs when it's chosen as a solution for coping with an unhappy marriage. A WS's decision to cheat is always a poor choice, a selfish choice, and a moral failing. But, that does not mean that their poor choices, selfish decisions, and moral failings are not, in part, a result of the poor choices, selfish decisions, and moral failings of their BS. All of the pontificating and declaring, otherwise, doesn't change the reality.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

An affair or other act of infidelity is in large part about lack of respect. Which, parenthetically, may be part of why men seem to have a harder time with infidelity. You do not get that back through grovelling. There is another thread current about the state of CWI with some discussion of reconciliation (whatever that may be) and divorce. I am one of those guys who is close to 3 years into trying to hold all this that is my family together. It sucks, it's beautiful and exhilarating, it's boring and long and tedious, it is for sure the hard row to hoe, but it is my family. I am sure others here, like Racer maybe, get this. If you want to keep your marriage from or following an affair, you do it by hook or by crook. Use whatever you have. Switch gears when necessary. And be clear-eyed about what will happen if it does not work out. There is a lot of comfort that comes from understanding what will happen if it does not work. It's only castles burning.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> The real problem is that Riley is imposing _his_ idea of the ideal standard. *Who says *that Riley's way is _the_ way for _every_ other BS, or even _any_ other BS?


Who says that? Nobody.




> If it worked for him and he is satisfied with the result, that's great. But, for him to repeatedly and emphatically state that because it worked for him, *that it is the right way for everyone else*


Where did he say that? He is expressing his opinion emphatically. Like me. I don't think divorce is for everyone, but I will suggest it to just about everyone if I think their betrayer is feeding them a load of crap and isn't as remorseful as they appear.




> whether they believe it or not, is quite simply an arrogant notion.


It would be if he in fact said his ideas should be applied to everyone. But I don't see where he did.




> Whether you call it an explanation, excuses, or justifications, there are always reasons that people cheat. Always.


Correct. But more times than not those "reasons" are finger pointing at the BS, as opposed to, for example, the reason of the WS simply being fickle or can't handle sex with the same person for the rest of their life.

Yes, there are reasons. Too many here blame the BS though.




> A WS's decision to cheat is always a poor choice, a selfish choice, and a moral failing. But, that does not mean that their poor choices, selfish decisions, and moral failings are not, in part, a result of the poor choices, selfish decisions, and moral failings of their BS.


There you have it folks. We are to blame for their cheating. So we need to understand this and bend over backwards to keep them from straying in the future. Their cheating is in our hands.

Now where is the vomit emoticon? Can one be added?


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Harken Banks said:


> Oh my! Did it nip or tuck?


Hey, Harken! What's up? Been awhile.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Then there is no point in being married if you are not "in love".


Nonsense. Being in love is chemical and emotional. Feelings change, and romance wears off.



> Plain old run of the mill "love", kind of like that you'd feel for a sibling, is not reason enough to stay married.


I wouldn't call that kind of love plain, nor would I restrict it 2 sibling relationships. I think Frank Pittman put it best:



> But growing up does mean that while your feelings are very interesting, they're not the only thing that's going on in the universe today. And however lovely your feelings are, and however fascinating your complicated state of mind, there are things that need to be done. And if you're going to take on a partner, there are responsibilities there. If you're going to have children, there are responsibilities there. And you can't really run out on those responsibilities and maintain much of a sense of honor and integrity. You can't run out on those responsibilities and really grow up in a way that makes you proud of your life's choices in the second half of your life


(I was saddened 2 learn that he passed away a couple years back).



> So do we want to change it to "in love"? Fine, there is no way someone can be "in love" with the person they F'd over in one of the worst ways.


I don't want 2 restrict marital love 2 fleeting feelings and/or chemical reactions in the brain, no. But there's no way that cheating on one's spouse is a loving act. As far as definitions go, then, I would agree with you.

-ol' 2long


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

vellocet said:


> Then there is no point in being married if you are not "in love".
> 
> Plain old run of the mill "love", kind of like that you'd feel for a sibling, is not reason enough to stay married.
> 
> So do we want to change it to "in love"? Fine, there is no way someone can be "in love" with the person they F'd over in one of the worst ways.


Generally I agree. But often times the ILYBNILWY situation is temporary because of the affair fog. 

I personally know my wife fell out of love with me and in love with the OM for a few months. But I am 100% positive she is in love with me again. 

If you can snap them back, great. If not, then I agree there is no point to keeping the marriage going.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

Just found another relevant Frank Pittman quote:



> You’re not going to be in love all the time, but if you want to recapture that magic from when you were in love, be loving. Being loving to your partner makes you feel so good about yourself, it doesn’t matter if you’re in love or not. The marriage is making you feel good if you are loving in it.


-ol' 2long


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

2long said:


> Nonsense. Being in love is chemical and emotional. Feelings change, and romance wears off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok then I take it you think that someone that cheats can "love" their betrayed partner?


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> Generally I agree. But often times the ILYBNILWY situation is temporary because of the affair fog.
> 
> I personally know my wife fell out of love with me and in love with the OM for a few months. But I am 100% positive she is in love with me again.
> 
> If you can snap them back, great. If not, then I agree there is no point to keeping the marriage going.


That thing called "fog" is too often times used as the get out of jail free card. 

"It wasn't me. I didn't know what I was doing. I was in a fog. You have to cut me slack! And if you don't, I'll point out the number of ways that you pushed me to do this"


----------



## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Who says that? Nobody.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Thank you for keeping it real. So many of the protests against the absolute, irrevocable damage done by an unfaithful spouse simply astounds me. Nobody is perfect (obviously - as you pointed out). How to handle such a horrendous act is not "one size fits all" but the pain is very real to anyone who has been betrayed, and that is a common factor in the whole mess. 

And to be "lectured" by any WS or FWS who just happens to have been forgiven by his/her BS and has reconciled seems rather disingenuous to some of us who have had to look into our own souls to figure out what went wrong, rather than ask our lying, deceitful spouses for direction. It's like giving them permission to find a laundry list of "faults" to correct to make their lives better. Some of us don't play that.


----------



## loyallad (Aug 1, 2014)

EI said:


> Not in every marriage, but in some marriages, infidelity occurs when it's chosen as a solution for coping with an unhappy marriage. A WS's decision to cheat is always a poor choice, a selfish choice, and a moral failing. But, that does not mean that their poor choices, selfish decisions, and moral failings are not, in part, a result of the poor choices, selfish decisions, and moral failings of their BS. All of the pontificating and declaring, otherwise, doesn't change the reality.


Cheating is a choice and there is no justification. "Well because I didn't get this or you don't ......" is not justification. Two wrongs don't make a right. And a lot of that "(s)he didn't love me or show me enough attention" or whatever the reason is usually rewriting history so that the WS justifies their A and to make them look less selfish.

Whatever the excuse given for cheating on one's spouse is really sugar coating a turd. At the end of the day it's still a turd. Seems to be the norm today, it's someone else's fault I did this. A lot of that going around. Grow up, accept responsibility, be a damn adult! I remember the comedian Flip Wilson used to have a bit about "the Devil made me do it." Looks like life is imitating art.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Thank you for keeping it real. So many of the protests against the absolute, irrevocable damage done by an unfaithful spouse simply astounds me. Nobody is perfect (obviously - as you pointed out). How to handle such a horrendous act is not "one size fits all" but the pain is very real to anyone who has been betrayed, and that is a common factor in the whole mess.


Yes, it is astounding. Like you said, nobody is perfect. And all these "reasons" listed that WS's use that ARE blameshifting are the very same "reasons" exhibited by my x-wife....but I didn't cheat. So the "reasons" aren't reasons at all...just excuses. 




> And to be "lectured" by any WS or FWS who just happens to have been forgiven by his/her BS and has reconciled seems rather disingenuous to some of us who have had to look into our own souls to figure out what went wrong, rather than ask our lying, deceitful spouses for direction. It's like giving them permission to find a laundry list of "faults" to correct to make their lives better. Some of us don't play that.


I don't mind hearing from truly remorseful WS's. But when the blameshifting starts, that's when credibility flies out the window.


----------



## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Twistedheart said:


> lol it is funny to me watching all these "former wayward" "now reformed" spouses try to justify their bull sh*t. Meanwhile, back on Earth, you still SUCK!


Nice. You are a prime example of the reasons a lot of people don't even post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

EI said:


> Not in every marriage, but in some marriages, infidelity occurs when it's chosen as a solution for coping with an unhappy marriage. A WS's decision to cheat is always a poor choice, a selfish choice, and a moral failing. But, that does not mean that their poor choices, selfish decisions, and moral failings are not, in part, a result of the poor choices, selfish decisions, and moral failings of their BS. All of the pontificating and declaring, otherwise, doesn't change the reality.


Character isn't really tested in the good times, it's tested at the darkest moments. You will have more dark moments in your life, and you want a partner that has your back. The answer to "Why?" is not important to me ... What is important is that my WS knows the "Why". 

There are no free cookies in our personal psychology. If a WS creates a boundary for themselves that they will never cheat again, there is a lot to be said for that. But if WS still hasn't resolved internally how they gave themselves permission, and how the A served them we are still at square one. These can be largely subconscious machinations that requires long depth psychotherapy to ease into the light. Furthermore, if the WS does not resolves these issues, there may not be another affair, but the neurosis will manifest itself in other ways. 

The BS has a whole different set of questions to answer. Why was I attracted to a person that would do me such great harm? How did this relationship serve my needs? What did I bring to this relationship that was unhealthy? And for me, why couldn't I see the signs and speak up ... where was my blind spot?

An impossibly high standard for R? I don't think so. The work is terrifying, requiring us to face the deepest regions of our shadow (subconscious). There is light at the end of the tunnel .. I am starting to see it about 2 yrs post-DDay. I think the question every BS considering R needs to ask themselves at some point is: Is my partner wounded or wounded beyond repair? The assumption that all WS are 'wounded beyond repair' doesn't work for me. I do understand many people answer that question differently. Kindest Regards-


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Regret214 said:


> Nice. You are a prime example of the reasons a lot of people don't even post.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree, it was a bit uncalled for.

However, it was directed at those trying to "justify" the "bull***" of which he speaks. So it was only directed at the "justifiers".

So if a WS isn't pointing the finger at their BS for their choice to cheat, then it doesn't apply to them.

But point taken, it was inappropriate.


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

EI said:


> Not in every marriage, but in some marriages, infidelity occurs when it's chosen as a solution for coping with an unhappy marriage. A WS's decision to cheat is always a poor choice, a selfish choice, and a moral failing. But, that does not mean that their poor choices, selfish decisions, and moral failings are not, in part, a result of the poor choices, selfish decisions, and moral failings of their BS. All of the pontificating and declaring, otherwise, doesn't change the reality.


No. Completely disagree. 
You concede that infidelity is a choice, but impose blame and responsibility for that choice on the BS.

To impose even partial blame on a BS is nothing more than blame-shifting, and immature blameshifting at that. It amounts to nothing more than "He made me do it." None of us are dependent upon a spouse or partner to define our choices, decisions or provide us with a moral compass. 

I have to agree with Riley Z. The why's do not matter. Some uphappy people cheat, some happy people cheat. Some unhappy people push for MC to resolve their issues and improve their communication, others can't be bothered.

Personally, after learning the extent of my ex's deceptions, I would not have believed any excuses he offered. I did not ask. He remains a miserable human being, having CHOSEN not to grow or discover anything about himself. I completely understand that not all WS behave in this manner, which does help prove the maxim that one solution does not fit all.


----------



## 10th Engineer Harrison (Dec 11, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Ok then I take it you think that someone that cheats can "love" their betrayed partner?


Good question, ac2ally.

I once said this, about that:

I understand the statement "I love you but I'm not in love with you." The WS who says it also believes they understand it, but for a very different reason than I do. They're romantically in love with their affair partner, but they still have love for their BS, though they have 2 compartmentalize and separate these 2 forms of "love" in order 2 function. They could also quite truthfully say 2 their affair partner "I'm in love with you but I don't love you." But that would tear a hole in the fabric of their universe 2 even contemplate such a concept. So you never hear a cheater say that, profoundly true though it is.

-ol' 2long


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

To the original topic of why you can't nice your WS out of their affair:

As I see it, it's simple psychology. Doing this, reinforces the WS's false notions and justifications for their A:

the blame shifting
the villainizing of the BS
the entitlement of no consequences

It gives them the message that what they did must not be their fault; it must have been a wake up call to the BS. It keeps them in control; it reduces their perceived value of saving the marriage; and they lose even more respect for the BS in the process. 

Just a bad, bad strategy all the way around.


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

2long said:


> Good question, ac2ally.
> 
> I once said this, about that:
> 
> ...


Compartmentalization is merely a mechanism that allows one to lie to yourself. It is still a lie.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Well MJA is one of the xWS's I admire, and it took a while for me to come to that kind of feeling towards someone that cheated.
> 
> You and MJA are right. She and the other WS's are not our spouses, or in my case, x-WS.
> 
> ...


*
*

I have to concur. I think Mrs JA is rare. I have heard her post many times, not about the details of her infidelity, but she has never blamed others, made BS excuses, or minimized that it was the wrong thing to do. She is not typical. My x thinks she did nothing wrong leaving her husband and kids for another man. NOTHING!

I am often very hard on cheaters here and frankly they deserve every bit of it. But when I make statements like all cheaters, men and women, are selfish and egotistical I mean it! However I also think she and possibly Mr. j Adams are exceptions to the rule and they remind me that not all WS are the same.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

EI said:


> The real problem is that Riley is imposing _his_ idea of the ideal standard. Who says that Riley's way is _the_ way for _every_ other BS, or even _any_ other BS? If it worked for him and he is satisfied with the result, that's great. But, for him to repeatedly and emphatically state that because it worked for him, that it is the right way for everyone else, whether they believe it or not, is quite simply an arrogant notion. Philat has already stated that he wanted to hear what his wife had to say.
> 
> Whether you call it an explanation, excuses, or justifications, there are always reasons that people cheat. Always. A point that I've, personally, never seen addressed in this forum is that the BS is not the only spouse who has a decision to make with regard to reconciliation or divorce. A WS has the same decision to make. It takes two committed and willing spouses for there to be any hope of a successful reconciliation, but only one to choose divorce. If the WS is the spouse choosing divorce, and the BS does not wish to divorce, then those reasons are going to have to be addressed.
> 
> Not in every marriage, but in some marriages, infidelity occurs when it's chosen as a solution for coping with an unhappy marriage. *A WS's decision to cheat is always a poor choice, a selfish choice, and a moral failing. But, that does not mean that their poor choices, selfish decisions, and moral failings are not, in part, a result of the poor choices, selfish decisions, and moral failings of their BS*. All of the pontificating and declaring, otherwise, doesn't change the reality.


I've got to say ..... Do you know what you've just said there? Do you?

You don't do yourself any favors here and anyone liking that as well Mrs Adams.

What absolute bsh!t

You know what, the more and more I watch you "ex" waywards post here the less time consideration and respect I have as time after time I see little blame shifts poking through the intricate history of your past stories and the little cute justifications of it all 

There I've said it.

I'll admit over the last year you and a couple of other waywards have made me look at myself in these issues and I have tried to think before I write when around your threads and your 'supporters' but this is frankly crap. Over time in the last few months I think you've all gradually hung yourselves with your own nooses bit by bit.

I think now I can honestly surmise I've seen only two waywards on here in my history of this place that just *took it on the chin* and that was that - no bullsh!t no discussion just hands up "I did it with nil other 'help' from the person who I destroyed" - tears and Un_Amor_Perdido - a few months ago. And that is about it 

As Riley, who's now I note banned, said earlier just the hands up is enough and tbh anything else always ends up being a "but" a justification and a blame shift.

You keep driving this home the "it's not only the Ws" etc etc etc etc ad nauseum 

*YES IS FKINGWELL IS! - It IS the wayward spouse. *

I've had enough of the lets insidiously blame the betrayed spouse bullsh!t that currently rides high on here and is currently the 'in' thing 

This is the coping with INFIDELITY forum where people have had infidelity inflicted upon them

These were the choices involved in that infidelity 

1/ The BS did *not* choose to become a victim of infidelity - Not one of them /us 
2/ The wayward spouse *CHOSE by CHOICE* to inflict that upon a betrayed spouse 

Read those two lines again, save me writing them out


----------



## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Someone a few pages back suggested a BS needs a “why” to find forgiveness. Um… not for me. I’m more in Vellocet’s mindset of “once a cheater, will always be a cheater”. Only dramatic core changes and perceptions keep them from cheating again. So the alcoholic instead of thinking that drink is a release, learns to hate it from deep inside. 

How? Reflecting on the wreck, the damage, and the pain THEY CAUSED and understanding no one ‘made them’ become this. For the same reason I needed the “why”. I needed to know she not only saw her core issues that ever made it ‘ok’, but that she dug deep enough to understand how she could do it and truly look back at the extent of the damage to everything she supposedly believed in this deep issue brought to her. That is why you need their ‘why’. It isn’t about me at all. It’s about how she copes with life not going her way and her default methods will insure misery, hurt, and destruction of everything she wanted out of life. So it needs to be modified and changed. It’s also why you can’t ‘nice them’ any more than you could change yourself so an alcoholic won’t use you as the excuse to drink.


----------



## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

I never really needed to know why my fWW cheated on me. It’s pretty obvious. She wanted the best of two worlds. The security of me, taking care of her, and the adventure of him, with whom she was still in love. And to know that I was #2 that whole time, while giving it my all, will always burn me. 

That’s why I was branded stupid for reconciliation. But love is a funny thing. It surely isn’t a rational thing. Anyone who tells me love is rational hasn’t felt it. Or at least hasn’t felt it to the levels I’ve felt it in my life. It’s rare, it’s precious, it’s necessary for my mental health. And if I can make it work, well, there are always compromises in life. We determine for ourselves what it the most valuable use of our lives. We then retain the discipline to get through the hard stuff. 

Nowadays, my fWW would just as soon shoot OM as see him. She tries to show me full-on love, to the best of her ability. 

*Full-on love, to the best of her ability. *Wow. Who wouldn’t want that?

So trying to apply rational arguments to situations that involve the heart, rather than the brain, don’t work. If it’s a brain argument to start with, it wasn’t love anyway.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

2long said:


> I was once asked whether I'd rather be hanged or guillotined. I told her I'd rather eat ice cream.
> 
> -ol' 2long


I agree. See, if we keep at it long enough we can reach agreement!


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Pluto2 said:


> I have to agree with Riley Z. The why's do not matter. Some uphappy people cheat, some happy people cheat. Some unhappy people push for MC to resolve their issues and improve their communication, others can't be bothered.


I did push for MC. He went a few times and stopped. So, instead, I went to IC, for years, by myself. I communicated. He said that he wasn't interested in fixing our marriage. He told me to accept things as they were and that "this is as good as it's going to get." I said that I could not accept it. I told him that I would be getting a divorce in 2 years when our youngest son graduated from high school and when I had made permanent living arrangements for our oldest son, who has special needs. After twice being refused a physical separation or a legal/in-house separation, I told him that I would no longer be waiting for love and passion if an opportunity came my way. I clearly told him that I was getting a divorce and that I was not waiting to move on. He responded to that the same way he responded to all of my other attempts to communicate my unhappiness to him. First he ignored me, and when that no longer worked, he resorted to verbal humiliation. At that point, I had no love or respect left for him. I had an affair. Did I ask for his permission? No, I did not. To be honest, I had reached complete indifference where he was concerned. It's a very long and complicated story. It's all on TAM. I don't expect you to read it and I'm quite certain you wouldn't feel any different if you did. 

But before you throw out comments like "Some unhappy people push for MC to resolve their issues and improve their communication, others can't be bothered" perhaps you should know the facts. 




Pluto2 said:


> Personally, after learning the extent of my ex's deceptions, I would not have believed any excuses he offered. I did not ask. He remains a miserable human being, having CHOSEN not to grow or discover anything about himself. I completely understand that not all WS behave in this manner, which does help prove the maxim that one solution does not fit all.


Neither my husband or I remain miserable human beings. We have BOTH worked very hard on ourselves, and on our marriage, for the last two years and are now happily reconciled. 

I don't expect this post to change the way anyone else thinks or to change the way anyone views my personal situation. But, I cannot tell my story any other way because this is our story and these are the facts. The truth does not cease being the truth just because someone refuses to believe it. I'll quit repeating my story when the repeated attacks on me stop.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

2long said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by 2long View Post
> he rationalizes that it's better for him 2 lie and cheat 2 get what he wants, than it is 2 be honest with himself and his family, and making a healthy selfless choice.
> 
> ...


Well of course we are all assuming that there is no medical reason. 

If we want to discuss wedding vows, sex is part of them. Some religions don't consider a marriage complete until it is consummated. I'd figure that totally turning off the sex IS a violation of the marriage vows.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

2long said:


> I have no clue what you mean.
> 
> -ol' 2long


I had written:



> Originally Posted by sidney2718
> I'd not want to put "love is a conscious choice" up for a vote here. Most of us have been bitten by it out of the blue.


I'd written that because someone (was it 2long, I don't recall) stated that, and I quoted "love is a conscious choice". I don't think that is true and my vote comment shows that I think that most folks here would agree.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> [/U][/B]
> 
> I have to concur. I think Mrs JA is rare. I have heard her post many times, not about the details of her infidelity, but she has never blamed others, made BS excuses, or minimized that it was the wrong thing to do. She is not typical. My x thinks she did nothing wrong leaving her husband and kids for another man. NOTHING!
> 
> I am often very hard on cheaters here and frankly they deserve every bit of it. But when I make statements like all cheaters, men and women, are selfish and egotistical I mean it! However I also think she and possibly Mr. j Adams are exceptions to the rule and they remind me that not all WS are the same.


Thank you. What a number of us have been trying to do here is to point out that "not all WS are the same". That's exactly the point.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Headspin said:


> I've got to say ..... Do you know what you've just said there? Do you?
> 
> You don't do yourself any favors here and anyone liking that as well Mrs Adams.
> 
> ...


So basically you are saying that TAM might just as well close down the CWI section because it is useless. All one need do is divorce the WS and get what help one can for the BS. And that's that.

All TAM needs is a well written copy of what I just wrote above posted in a prominent place and our work here is done.

Am I right?


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

EI said:


> Whether you call it an explanation, excuses, or justifications, there are always reasons that people cheat. Always.


There are always "reasons" people do anything. Drink and drive, evade taxes, steal, rape, jaywalk, murder, fart, order extra gravy, stay out in the sun too long...what's your point? We are not amoebas...we have working brains that apply some kind of logic and deduction (no matter how flawed) before making a decision and acting on that decision. So what? Say what you mean - "there's always some _justification_ when people cheat".



EI said:


> But, that does not mean that their poor choices, selfish decisions, and moral failings are not, in part, a result of the poor choices, selfish decisions, and moral failings of their BS. All of the pontificating and declaring, otherwise, doesn't change the reality.



Again, a wordy, poorly disguised way of saying the BS brought it on themselves. Talk about "pontificating and declaring, otherwise".


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm pretty sure a lot of the commentaries are written from a place of profound pain. And seeing that, I am reminded how broken many of us have been and still are.

In my own case, my ex-wife reverted to excuse making as often as she could regarding her culpability in cheating on me for so long.

For awhile, after years, of drama with her, she would act like a repentant ex-cheater. But I knew she didn't really believe her own act, it was designed to just get me off her back.

When I finally filed for divorce and pulled the plug on that awful marriage? Guess what? She reverted to every excuse and justification for what she did and threw them at me, blaming me for her long affair.

No growth, no introspection.

*Can I paint with a broad brush about all who cheat based on my sample of one?*

No.

*Is the impulse to lash out still there?*

At times.

*How did I get beyond that?*

By concentrating on fixing myself, getting away from her evil and making a good life going forward.

*It does work.*


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Regret214 said:


> Nice. You are a prime example of the reasons a lot of people don't even post.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And cheating spouses are the sole reason CWI exists in the first place. Hmm.


----------



## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Healer said:


> And cheating spouses are the sole reason CWI exists in the first place. Hmm.


And there is also a Reconciliation Forum here at TAM to assist people looking for tips and inspiration on how to continue the marriage - although it does seem to be mostly deserted there.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

EI said:


> I'll quit repeating my story when the repeated attacks on me stop.


Well I haven't seen anyone "attack" you, but if you want folks to stop calling you on your bull****, perhaps you should cease with the thinly veiled BS blaming posts. Hell, "thinly veiled" is even exaggerating.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> So basically you are saying that TAM might just as well close down the CWI section because it is useless. All one need do is divorce the WS and get what help one can for the BS. And that's that.
> 
> All TAM needs is a well written copy of what I just wrote above posted in a prominent place and our work here is done.
> 
> Am I right?


Are you referencing what you have quoted? Because I didn't get that from it at all.


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

EI said:


> I did push for MC. He went a few times and stopped. So, instead, I went to IC, for years, by myself. I communicated. He said that he wasn't interested in fixing our marriage. He told me to accept things as they were and that "this is as good as it's going to get." I said that I could not accept it. I told him that I would be getting a divorce in 2 years when our youngest son graduated from high school and when I had made permanent living arrangements for our oldest son, who has special needs. After twice being refused a physical separation or a legal/in-house separation, I told him that I would no longer be waiting for love and passion if an opportunity came my way. I clearly told him that I was getting a divorce and that I was not waiting to move on. He responded to that the same way he responded to all of my other attempts to communicate my unhappiness to him. First he ignored me, and when that no longer worked, he resorted to verbal humiliation. At that point, I had no love or respect left for him. I had an affair. Did I ask for his permission? No, I did not. To be honest, I had reached complete indifference where he was concerned. It's a very long and complicated story. It's all on TAM. I don't expect you to read it and I'm quite certain you wouldn't feel any different if you did.
> 
> But before you throw out comments like "Some unhappy people push for MC to resolve their issues and improve their communication, others can't be bothered" perhaps you should know the facts.
> 
> ...


Geez Louise, you are defensive.
You read intent in to my post that did not exist. I was not attacking you, merely disagreeing with your analysis.
My statement, "Some unhappy people push for MC to resolve their issues and improve their communication, others can't be bothered" is entirely valid. And I had no idea what the facts of your particular case are, that's not my business.

There are lots of WS here on TAM who have attempted to justify their cheating on an unhappy marriage. He was mean, he didn't love me the way I wanted, he neglected me. Yet those very people are frequently the ones who can't be bothered to go to or even suggest MC to try to resolve it. Instead, there hold their spouse responsible for their actions.

Sorry you remain in so much pain, and I am not trying to beat you up.
You were unhappy, you tried to fix it, your spouse could not be bothered.
At that point you made a choice. It was not his.
Good for you that you and your spouse worked through it. 
But that doesn't change anything that I said for the many of others. Some happy people cheat, some unhappy people cheat. No one forced them. And no one else is responsible.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

The Gaza conflict has become less trite than this thread


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Headspin....
> 
> I do not care what you think of me...it has no affect on my life whatsoever....but I do want to set you straight on something....I have NEVER...not from the day I cheated on my husband almost thirty one years ago....EVER blamed my husband for my choice to cheat. I have NEVER not taken responsibility for my decision to be unfaithful to him. I have NEVER said anything disrespectful about my husband to ANYONE...it is not the way i roll. He is a very good man...who picked a poor choice for a wife....and I will live the rest of my life doing my best to be the wife he has always deserved.
> 
> ...


Oh did I. 

I'm not spewing any crap about you. I'm not calling you names 

You and I do not get on do not see eye to eye about almost anything, that's pretty obvious from myriad of different threads going way back. 

And almost every time I see you in a thread I see you screaming about not being lumped in with anyone else - you are "unique" and you are "different" etc etc. It 's almost in every post you write. 

You're not. You're a wayward wife who dismantled her husband's world just like EI and god knows how many others. Sure you've stood up unlike many of them and realized to get a shot at reconciliation that works you have to own what you did and to all intents and purposes you have. Good for you. Well done. 

BUT and here it is, it's almost as of it's like drawing blood from a stone there's always this little tiny bit of fighting back about it in some little hidden way. I can't quite put my finger on but I'll try. 

You see other peoples post like the one above from EI and you 'like' it. I ascertain from that, like I do when I 'like' a post, that it 's a particularly attractive post and everything in it that you 'like'. You're sympathetic to the contents. Well that's what started me off after seeing a lot of those kind of posts recently. You agree with that post and others like it then I'll lump you in with what she's saying unless now you're about to say you liked a post you don't agree with 

A lot of betrayed spouses on here are sick and tired of the now customary 'attacks' on us to the point where I've seen in recent days / times that we betrayed spouse need to 'look at ourselves' as to why our wws chose to cheat cheated on us, FK that ! We now get that apparently we did not deliver the "unmet needs " FK that! too

As I said the only wwaywards I have ever seen on here who just put their hands up and than shut up were tears and Perdido - the rest of you seem to have this insidious little network that is hell bent on actually turning infidelity around to being caused by us betrayed some way back in the mists of time!

It seems even the mods and admin are taken in by it all too "Lets be fair"

Actually *No* 

I'll say that again as I'm tired of it. I'll say it - NO Lets not be fking fair 

Someone wants to wreck my life because they just decided selfishly and wanted to do it ? then they better expect something back other than sorry "I'm Sorry, I became a piece of sh!t on your shoe so that you had to go and fk someone else. Poor you -I apologize

Well I don't. I've had enough of the "it's our/my fault you fked around". I did that when I was with mstbx until I realized what a complete load of hogwash that was and I'm sure as hell not any longer gonna sit on here and listen to any more that blame shifting drivel from another load of wayward spouse seeking some kind of way out for their appalling actions

You may have reached some line that been crossed .....but so have I too


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

She's the one posting on this thread about this topic, trying to convince others that the BS holds responsibility. I do not agree. None of my remarks were directed towards her or her situation (of which I did not now), but I am not brow-beating her or anyone else by stating I disagree.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> So basically you are saying that TAM might just as well close down the CWI section because it is useless. All one need do is divorce the WS and get what help one can for the BS. And that's that.
> 
> All TAM needs is a well written copy of what I just wrote above posted in a prominent place and our work here is done.
> 
> Am I right?


No you're wrong - very

What TAM needs is a bit more 'spine' and needs to not forget why we are here.

True unconditional remorseful spouse get all the help I can muster. I did with tears and Perdido because they really did lay down and wait for the bullet but of course because I, like nearly every body els,e am a compassionate man who understands once you have gone as low as you can you may well need help to get something back 

I don't however extend the same good feeling to those that blameshift their way into some form of positivity on this site when actually blameshifting is what they are still doing and recently it's become almost fashionable to side with those waywards 

I've bit my tongue long enough as I've watched this and thought it's about time I spoke up 
whatever comes my way for it


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Oh did I.
> 
> I'm not spewing any crap about you. I'm not calling you names
> 
> ...


BTW, I "liked" this post because I agreed with it.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Healer said:


> BTW, I "liked" this post because I agreed with it.


Well you better expect a diatribe from some wayward then who thinks that maybe you're responsible for someone else deciding to choose to cheat on you !


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Headspin said:


> No you're wrong - very
> 
> What TAM needs is a bit more 'spine' and needs to not forget why we are here.
> 
> ...


I must agree. There does seem to be a trend gaining strength as you've mentioned. It makes me feel rather icky.

And I won't speak for anyone else, but I find it very insulting to my intelligence when I read these posts by supposedly remorseful, deeply sorry, reformed or "former" WS who not so subtly shift blame or point their fingers at BS. *Wink wink nudge nudge. Passive aggressive using a sledgehammer with soft feathers taped to it. Amazing people get fooled by this.

And indeed, the posts one "likes" are very, very telling of how they actually feel about things.


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Well you better expect a diatribe from some wayward then who thinks that maybe you're responsible for someone else deciding to choose to cheat on you !


Of course. Everyone cheats for a "reason".


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Ok, so is it:

"like == interesting post, I'll digest this some more"

or

"like == I agree with everything about this post so much I think I need to change the world on the precepts outlined within it."


And to follow on, should I analyze every poster's "like' frequency to glean hidden information about them?


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Headspin....You may only like posts that you agree with 100%....i don't. I like them for a variety of reasons. I "like" posts that are posted by my friends....I "like" posts to let people know i saw them...I "like" posts that i agree with....I "like" posts that are funny.....
> 
> But I certainly do not take the time to look at others who have "liked" a post and then blasted a way at them for doing so.


Well I'd venture to suggest you liked that post because amongst any other reasons - you agreed with it? Yes ? I think so 

And from where I sit it obviously puts you in the same frame as her, you agree with what she's saying or are you now suggesting that those lines I highlighted you now don't agree with .......yeah right 

Please don't try and dissect why you 'like' a post. It's obvious

And as for taking time to see who likes a post I often don't notice but the nature of that one made me look to see who if anyone agreed with it ....YOU


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Healer said:


> And I won't speak for anyone else, but I find it very insulting to my intelligence when I read these posts by supposedly remorseful, deeply sorry, reformed or "former" WS who not so subtly shift blame or point their fingers at BS. *Wink wink nudge nudge. Passive aggressive using a sledgehammer with soft feathers taped to it. Amazing people get fooled by this.


It's straight up victimspeak.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> *Actually..you are wrong*...i liked it to let her know i read it and saw it ..not because i agreed with it....but i owe you no explanation......


Yeah course I am


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Fer cryin' out loud. I know this place is a trigger for a lot of people, but really...

Cheaters need to own their actions. They are adults that have made a commitment and have broken that commitment. And are responsible for that -- including the devastation caused to their spouses and their families.

For many of those betrayed (myself included) understanding the drivers that enabled their spouse to cheat on them aid in the healing process. That's something I can look at and use to grow whether we reconcile or for the next relationship. That's not blame shifting, that's growth.

When the betrayed spouse uses the reasons why they cheated (lack of sex, lack of connection, opportunity, etc) as justification as to why it's not their fault, that's blame shifting. And the death of any opportunity to reconcile as far as I'm concerned.

But not every honest conversation about why someone did something is blame shifting. It depends on where it's coming from.

"I screwed Sally because you're not giving me enough sex" -> blame shifting.

"I screwed Sally because I'm a total idiot and I'm sorry and I'll do anything to make up for it I felt like we weren't having enough sex so it felt justified at the time and now I realize how much pain I've caused you rather than working on that and I realize you have every right to leave me but if you give me another chance I'll be open and honest about everything and do anything you ask" -> not blame shifting

Me? I'd freaking kill for a reason. Even if she WAS blame shifting. Because that way I could at least understand what she used to justify the devastation she caused.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> I did push for MC. He went a few times and stopped. So, instead, I went to IC, for years, by myself. I communicated. He said that he wasn't interested in fixing our marriage. He told me to accept things as they were and that "this is as good as it's going to get." I said that I could not accept it. I told him that I would be getting a divorce in 2 years when our youngest son graduated from high school and when I had made permanent living arrangements for our oldest son, who has special needs. After twice being refused a physical separation or a legal/in-house separation, I told him that I would no longer be waiting for love and passion if an opportunity came my way. I clearly told him that I was getting a divorce and that I was not waiting to move on. He responded to that the same way he responded to all of my other attempts to communicate my unhappiness to him. First he ignored me, and when that no longer worked, he resorted to verbal humiliation. At that point, I had no love or respect left for him. I had an affair. Did I ask for his permission? No, I did not. To be honest, I had reached complete indifference where he was concerned. It's a very long and complicated story. It's all on TAM. I don't expect you to read it and I'm quite certain you wouldn't feel any different if you did.
> 
> But before you throw out comments like "Some unhappy people push for MC to resolve their issues and improve their communication, others can't be bothered" perhaps you should know the facts.


Ok, here you tailor the story as if he just had a problem, didn't listen to you, simply ignored you, you did everything right, and that's that.

But that isn't an accurate description of the real problem, which was his low testosterone. That being the case, MC isn't going to do a damn thing. He needed medical intervention. I'm assuming now that he has desire that medical attention for his condition was sought.

So the problem was that he had a condition through not fault of his own.


----------



## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

<<But here’s what I think is more likely — you don’t suck. You’re saddled with a partner who has checked out of the marriage. Why? Because of entitlement, cowardice, and crap life skills. Why? Because that is their character — when the going gets less than optimal, they cast about. The cheater is devoting their energies and resources elsewhere, and someone has to pick up the slack. That someone is you. Chumps are usually hyper-responsible, conscientious people who aren't terribly high maintenance. We can shoulder more than our share, because hey, that’s what you do for people you love. We mistakenly assume they’d do the same for us. Our stick-to-it-tiveness is a reflection of our character, and cheaters know this. It’s why it’s pretty easy to cheat on you — you’re a trusting idiot.>>

This is the paragraph that rang true for me. I am a pretty self-sufficient person. I am a doer. I am the one who always makes sure everything is running smoothly, taken care of, not high maintenance at all. Not to my detriment, I don't think. FCH sometimes takes advantage of that. If he says "we" should do something he was used to me doing it. When that stopped happening all the time he was surprised. I didn't do it to please him, I just like to get things done.

When we went to MC after the first time, at the very first session the counselor looked at my FCH and said. "Do you hear that?" She is taking all the responsibility so far. And it was true, I was not taking it for his cheating, but for the state of our marriage while he just sat there telling her it was a mistake, it was over. (It was not, but I didn't know that then) 

We went to one more session and then he was suddenly unavailable for any more, but really, he told me later, it was because he felt blamed. Duh.

I am not 'nice' in that way anymore, unless I see equal amounts of niceness coming back at me. Which now it does, but there are times when I am not feeling 'nice' at all still. And that might never fully go away. 
I am certainly not jumping through any hoops these days.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

EI said:


> The real problem is that Riley is imposing _his_ idea of the ideal standard. Who says that Riley's way is _the_ way for _every_ other BS, or even _any_ other BS?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

After 215+ postings in this thread, all I see now is trench warfare.

A == I'm right

B == You're wrong

C == Exchange positions A and B


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Healer said:


> Well I haven't seen anyone "attack" you, but if you want folks to stop calling you on your bull****, perhaps you should cease with the thinly veiled BS blaming posts. Hell, "thinly veiled" is even exaggerating.


I don't "thinly veil" anything. I always say exactly what I mean. Stating the facts is not blaming my BS for my choice. It's stating the facts.


----------



## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

michzz said:


> After 215+ postings in this thread, all I see now is trench warfare.
> 
> A == I'm right
> 
> ...


You're wrong.




Please tell me the humor wasn't lost on you.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI. With regards to what Riley said, I stand corrected.

Everything else you said, I stand correct.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Ok, here you tailor the story as if he just had a problem, didn't listen to you, simply ignored you, you did everything right, and that's that.
> 
> But that isn't an accurate description of the real problem, which was his low testosterone. That being the case, MC isn't going to do a damn thing. He needed medical intervention. I'm assuming now that he has desire that medical attention for his condition was sought.
> 
> So the problem was that he had a condition through not fault of his own.



Yes, he had low T. That, too, has been discussed, repeatedly, on TAM, in multiple threads. I cannot possibly share every single detail in every single post. If I do, I get slammed. If I don't, I get slammed. You know the story. I made many doctor's appointments for him. Just like with his IC and MC, he briefly started treatment, then he stopped. He knew he had low T. He chose to discontinue the treatment. His low Testosterone was responsible for his lack of sex drive, fatigue, and lack of motivation. His low T was NOT responsible for his lack of compassion towards me during that time, his often very cruel words, and his refusal to maintain his treatment plan. Just as I was responsible for my choice to cheat, he was also responsible for his choices, words, and actions. I tried to help him. He didn't want to be helped at the time.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

michzz said:


> After 215+ postings in this thread, all I see now is trench warfare.
> 
> A == I'm right
> 
> ...





sandc said:


> You're wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like a ship in the desert


----------



## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

I am discouraged by the name calling and how so many posts get changed into personal vendettas where some people see 'their' story or supposed attacks at every turn.

I understand getting off topic in some cases, but not when it turns into the 'everyone is against me, and here's why I'm right' or the down right rude name calling starts.

It's not about just a few people here, right? Why does it end up with people arguing about semantics or certain wording, instead of the topic? Sometimes it seems as though some people just come here to argue, no matter the point. 

How pointless and unproductive.


----------



## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Healer said:


> I must agree. There does seem to be a trend gaining strength as you've mentioned. It makes me feel rather icky.
> 
> And I won't speak for anyone else, but I find it very insulting to my intelligence when I read these posts by supposedly remorseful, deeply sorry, reformed or "former" WS who not so subtly shift blame or point their fingers at BS. *Wink wink nudge nudge. Passive aggressive using a sledgehammer with soft feathers taped to it. Amazing people get fooled by this.
> 
> And indeed, the posts one "likes" are very, very telling of how they actually feel about things.





azteca1986 said:


> It's straight up victimspeak.


Straining to rub off that blemish off the ego. Be made whole again. "It happened, but....now I'm different; like it never happened. I won't tolerate being treated like the rest...."

Its that whole PC bit about watching every word you say. Can't offend anyone. Doesn't matter what THEY did, don't YOU say anything. "Lets all be tolerant. Its easier for me that way."


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

vellocet said:


> EI. With regards to what Riley said, I stand corrected.
> 
> Everything else you said, I stand correct.


vellocet, this isn't fun for me. I'm sure that it isn't fun for you or for anyone else, either. What B1 and I think, feel, say and do with regard to our marriage does not need to have any effect on anyone else's marriage or relationship besides our own. If someone finds something about our story to be helpful in their own personal lives, (and our pm inbox overwhelmingly says that it does) then we are happy to share our personal experience with them. If they don't, they are free to disregard my posts. Or they can put my posts on ignore. But, I do not think they are entitled to continue trying to browbeat me into submission. This helps no one.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

EI said:


> Yes, he had low T. That, too, has been discussed, repeatedly, on TAM, in multiple threads. I cannot possibly share every single detail in every single post. If I do, I get slammed. If I don't, I get slammed. You know the story. I made many doctor's appointments for him. Just like with his IC and MC, he briefly started treatment, then he stopped. He knew he had low T. He chose to discontinue the treatment. His low Testosterone was responsible for his lack of sex drive, fatigue, and lack of motivation. His low T was NOT responsible for his lack of compassion towards me during that time, his often very cruel words, and his refusal to maintain his treatment plan. Just as I was responsible for my choice to cheat, he was also responsible for his choices, words, and actions. I tried to help him. He didn't want to be helped at the time.


EI, I don't know that you've (openly) provided this level of detail w/ respect to your story before (if you have, I've missed it), but I'm glad that you have here. You and I have interacted a bit via PM and a now-defunct social group here on TAM in the past and, as someone who knows a bit more about your story than perhaps most, I have, at times, been somewhat tempted to come to your defense. But, alas, yours is not my story to tell.

Anyway...

Why is it that, though we all like to ape the good ol' "While no BS is responsible for his or her WS's affair(s), he or she is likely _at least_ 50% responsible for the state of the marriage leading up to it..." jive, so many of us seem to actually take it to heart?

Seriously... Everyone understands the meaning behind the words, right?


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Chump Lady on Why You Can’t “Nice” People Out of Affairs*



Headspin said:


> No you're wrong - very
> 
> What TAM needs is a bit more 'spine' and needs to not forget why we are here.


Why YOU are here. YOU, not we. 'We' are here for a myriad of other reasons than requiring a wayward to stick their chin out to let some some broken, angry BS take a shot at it every time they feel like it because in their opinion the wayward isnt repentant or remorseful enough.

TAM does not exist to punish anyone.

This notion that there is a cabal of people looking to blame the non-cheating spouse for the others infidelity is bunk.

It's like the Red Scare.

Calling people on their sh!t is fine. But if they aren't buying what you're selling, you need to be able to let it go.


----------



## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

Gus, here's my thought on your question - I notice that the majority of male betrayed spouses who tend to be more vocal toward wayward wives happen to be the ones who scream at the male betrayed husbands who choose reconciliation over divorce. The crowd of go work out and get a golden dildo, I mean ratio and take your life back and be a wolf alpha are the guys who just can't get over what happened. They're stuck. Why? I don't know, but they sure tend to enjoy posting about how any and every wayward wife should be dumped immediately. Yet, THEY have never moved on. THEY have never healed.

And THEY are the ones telling other men that their choice is the correct and only true one.

It cracks Dig and me up to be brutally honest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Chump Lady on Why You Can’t “Nice” People Out of Affairs*



michzz said:


> I'm pretty sure a lot of the commentaries are written from a place of profound pain. And seeing that, I am reminded how broken many of us have been and still are.
> 
> In my own case, my ex-wife reverted to excuse making as often as she could regarding her culpability in cheating on me for so long.
> 
> ...


Hell of a post michzz.


----------



## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

badmemory said:


> To the original topic of why you can't nice your WS out of their affair:
> 
> As I see it, it's simple psychology. Doing this, reinforces the WS's false notions and justifications for their A:
> 
> ...


Good idea, here.

If you've got a cheater, and a definite non-cheater, they likely look things differently, too.

Nice behavior to a cheater only makes it easy for them. They cheat, and still get a nice reception. Why stop? The cheater likely is lacking in conscience, so the nice behavior does not make them feel guilty, or empathetic toward their spouse. Its plain old positive reinforcement.

The non-cheater, who is burdened with conscience doesn't immediately get all this. They'd feel guilty if they cheated. If spouse was nice to them on top of it, even worse.

Maybe pull the Seinfeld "opposite" theory out.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Regret214 said:


> Gus, here's my thought on your question - I notice that the majority of male betrayed spouses who tend to be more vocal toward wayward wives happen to be the ones who scream at the male betrayed husbands who choose reconciliation over divorce. The crowd of go work out and get a golden dildo, I mean ratio and take your life back and be a wolf alpha are the guys who just can't get over what happened. They're stuck. Why? I don't know, but they sure tend to enjoy posting about how any and every wayward wife should be dumped immediately. Yet, THEY have never moved on. THEY have never healed.
> 
> And THEY are the ones telling other men that their choice is the correct and only true one.


I'm probably somewhere in the middle of the two extremes; while I'm all for happy endings (NPI) _where possible_, let's face it... not all waywards *want* reconciliation. And, of those that do, I'd wager that at least a significant portion of them initially don't want to or are on the fence about it.

So yeah, advice needs to be situational. But even still... I'm of the opinion that, for a true reconciliation to happen, the WS/FWS needs to feel that the threat of divorce to be a very palpable and tangible thing.



Regret214 said:


> It cracks Dig and me up to be brutally honest.


Still wanna meet that guy.

And welcome back!


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

EI...I love and adore you...I will like any and all of your posts i want to. I am not ashamed of our friendship. You and i have done things differently...we have taken different paths..but ultimately we have both won.

Never doubt my sweet friend...that i love you...not for one second


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

I sense a "lesbi honest" coming from a certain poster in the immediate future...


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

gus...two drinks away.....


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

I just LOLed. Literally... out loud.


----------



## Served Cold (May 25, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> This is another good piece from CL.
> 
> Why You Can’t “Nice” People Out of Affairs
> 
> ...


I didn't nice my now ex-wife into giving our marriage a second chance. I nicely showed her the door. Turned out the other man didn't want her now that she was free. 

I wasn't perfect, but that **** she was with paled in comparison to me. 

I never heard of Chump Lady, I checked out her blog. She's on to something. I like her straight talk.


----------



## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

This site has a very cliquish vibe to it that I find off putting. Most people are divided into one of two camps and even some mods publicly "take sides" and throw their two cents out there when these heated debates arise. It's not my site so they can obviously run it however they want to, it just strikes me as a strange way to operate. Since nobody (mod or otherwise) is completely free from bias it kind of blows a hole in the whole impartiality thing.

Maybe impartial isn't what this site is going for though and that's certainly there choice to make. I personally think this place is gonna slowly transform into an LS style community. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an OM/OW sub forum added eventually, for people to discuss their ongoing affairs. Where they can exchange tips about keeping their adultery hidden from their spouse and describe their illicit hookups in all the juicy details with each other, under the guise of being "non judgmental" of course. Oh well, it is what is.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

And we plan on charging for it too.


----------



## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Still going...


----------



## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

Deejo said:


> And we plan on charging for it too.


I know you are trying to be funny, but really, it isn't helpful to see everything to deteriorate into squabbling and name calling.

If people are going to attack one another, or believe every comment is really about them, they themselves should develop thicker skins.

Not sure what the solution is though, but for me it's to avoid this when I see it. I try to keep on topic , but it keeps getting derailed.

Moderators do what here?


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

I guess it is ok for BS 's to ban together to berate a WW but it is not ok for ww's to ban together and support each other?

I do not see anyone here slamming anyone else....I see people supporting other people.

I dont see any mods liking any WW's posts...although God forbid anyone like anyone's post that they dont agree 100% with.

What i see is community...a diverse community.

Maybe the mods could start a new forum titled...Betrayed spouses only 

But this forum is coping with infidelity....which means Betrayed spouses and wayward spouses posting together learning to cope with the destruction of infidelity.

You can choose to post in this forum along with those you disagree with or you can post elsewhere...but no where in this forum does it say...Wayward wives keep out.

We have just as much right to post our stories as anyone else.
I am here WITH my betrayed spouse
EI is here WITH her betrayed spouse
REgret was here WITH her betrayed spouse until he got banned

Perhaps having both sides could teach us all something.
No one is asking for your approval....no one is asking for your help
We are here to try to help those who may be seeking and searching for answers other than divorce.

Coping means DEALING with
it does not means divorce.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

This is actually still quite civil.

We cater to a wide variety of contributors.

With regard to the original post, I agree with Chump Lady.

It is very common for me to read the story of a male poster who comes here, self identifies as either having been a very compassionate, or conversely, a very aloof and inattentive partner, and all of a sudden, they realize something is 'off' with their spouse.

If their wife is in walk-away mode, or is having an affair, trying to pour on the love and attention generally has the exact opposite effect that the husband expects.

It's the equivalent of trying to put out a fire with gasoline.

What we have going on right now ... are 2 ... countem' 2 wayward wives who reconciled with their husbands YEARS ago, posting alongside betrayed husbands' who have not yet fully healed from the trauma and pain of having the person you love, smile, lie, and shove a dagger between your ribs while telling you that you're imagining everything.

They are 2 groups in completely different places on the infidelity spectrum.

It is a challenging act to balance.

The mods here try to provide some of that balance, provide insight via their own circumstances, try to ensure that people are somewhere within the horizon line of the guidelines ... and oh ... we ban people for no good reason whatsoever.


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I guess it is ok for BS 's to ban together to berate a WW but it is not ok for ww's to ban together and support each other?
> 
> I do not see anyone here slamming anyone else....I see people supporting other people.
> 
> ...


I have absolutely no quarrel with almost all of what you said.
Until the last two lines.

Neither you or anyone else has the Right to tell anyone how they cope with infidelity. Some divorce some don't but everybody attempts to cope.


----------



## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

marduk said:


> But not every honest conversation about why someone did something is blame shifting. It depends on where it's coming from.


:iagree: This is the key point for me. A WS is not necessarily trying to justify or explain their actions every time they open their mouths to talk about what was going on inside their heads or their hearts. Sometimes they are just opening up honestly.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Why YOU are here. YOU, not we. 'We' are here for a myriad of other reasons than requiring a wayward to stick their chin out to let some some broken, angry BS take a shot at it every time they feel like it because in their opinion the wayward isnt repentant or remorseful enough.


you're wrong. I'm not here and many others too to smash a waywards chin - with some of the crap they spout especially recently, they do it to themselves without any help from me - look at that post earlier.



Deejo said:


> TAM does not exist to punish anyone


.
No but when people put themselves into a position to be shot at they'll get shot 
Lets face it when you (and other mods) are upset at somebody you're happy to ban them without a second thought 



Deejo said:


> This notion that there is a cabal of people looking to blame the non-cheating spouse for the others infidelity is bunk.


Wrong imo Absolutely. Its not bunk at all . There's been enough threads in the past few months whereby the feeling has grown that we betrayed spouses need to look at ourselves as to why we got cheated on and the now infamous unmet needs bullsh!t etc etc 



Deejo said:


> Calling people on their sh!t is fine. But if they aren't buying what you're selling, you need to be able to let it go.


What! I'm selling nothing. What I am doing is finally piping up at the wayward or formerly wayward as they prefer, perpetually insinuating surreptitiously that way back when, they really were put in a position whereby they had no other option than to cheat and fk over their significant others. Wolves in sheeps clothing.
And who cares if they are "not buying" or whatever that means I've nothing to let go. I'm representative of god knows how many betrayed in saying what I've said here and after much thought I'm comfortable with it and okay with how I feel about these people and what they spout, after all they seem very comfortable in reminding us in snidy little insidious ways that it was in fact the fault of the betrayed husband or wife 

Why don't you ask THEM to let go of that crap? Why not? Why don't you call out EI on her continued ability to admit to her adultery although with a "but" nearly always there after, with some continued narrative about actually the truth is 'he made me do it'. That's been going for months. Many posters have ended up having something to say about it with her and lets face it - we all know it's wrong. But you and the other mods seem reticent to actually call her on it or any of her supporters on it. Why is that? 

And now you are correct I am calling them on it because like god knows how many, I've heard enough, and I've heard enough of the support they get increasingly from say yourself and other mods as well as a little clique of supporters .

Personally finally, I find it nauseating. I've sat on here often in recent months and watched this develop till now. 

I don't care who you are Deejo and what you are on this site, You're not too big or important enough to be reminded of why we are here - because of selfish entitled cheats *ALL* of whom if they were that unhappy, could have left, who could have *CHOSEN to NOT cheat*

But they didn't they sat in it and chose instead to eat cake and destroy the person who in most cases gave them everything, along with kids and other families. 

That's not my unique take on it as a projection onto anyone else - that's a FACT

And these days apparently its because of faults most of us betrayed spouses exhibited without being told about it - until AFTER the cheats cheated. - complete sh!te


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

Pluto....you are absolutely right...and after i posted it i realized i left out the word ALWAYS...it does not ALWAYS mean divorce.
I apologize...


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I guess it is ok for BS 's to ban together to berate a WW but it is not ok for ww's to ban together and support each other?
> 
> I do not see anyone here slamming anyone else....I see people supporting other people.
> 
> ...


Amen! Testify!



Mrs. John Adams said:


> Coping means DEALING with
> *it does not means divorce.*


For some it very well may. Either way, it would seem to be a perfectly valid response/coping mechanism for many a betrayed spouse, and I'd argue that any BS would be justified in seeking divorce in the face of his or her spouse's infidelity.

Now, as for whether or not a given BS should choose divorce over reconciliation...? I can't answer that for any BS other than myself. I can offer my opinion (and I frequently do) but, at the end of the day, we each have to choose our own paths. Hell, this is true for life in general.

See? I'm fair *AND* balanced!

:smthumbup:


----------



## Mrs. John Adams (Nov 23, 2013)

headspin...not one time have i ever blamed you for your wife's infidelity...not one time have i ever blamed any betrayed spouse..not once...including my own.

EI and B1 tell the same story....if there was an issue between the two of them...if they were asking for help...i understand how you might want to voice your opinion...what i do not understand is why it bothers you so much...

I don't necessarily agree with everything EI says...but i never tear her apart and tell her that she did it wrong.

Do you not see...that what you are doing is helping no one?

It doesn't matter...they are fine...if they say they are fine why cant you just accept it and move on?

You are upset over something that has no bearing on your life in any way. Let it go...put her on ignore... put me on ignore...then you wont see anything we post.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Pluto2 said:


> I have absolutely no quarrel with almost all of what you said.
> Until the last two lines.
> 
> Neither you or anyone else has the Right to tell anyone how they cope with infidelity. Some divorce some don't but everybody attempts to cope.


I think that what Mrs. JA meant to say is that "coping w/ infidelity" doesn't _necessarily_ mean divorce. Not that it can't, or even that it shouldn't, but that it's not written in stone anywhere that it must be so.

That's it.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Philat said:


> :iagree: This is the key point for me. A WS is not necessarily trying to justify or explain their actions every time they open their mouths to talk about what was going on inside their heads or their hearts. Sometimes they are just opening up honestly.


True story.


----------



## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

Deejo said:


> *This is actually still quite civil.*
> 
> We cater to a wide variety of contributors.
> 
> ...


Civil? Really, have you been reading what I am reading? When you have to use @#%**s instead of words, civility is not at hand.

When I first stepped into one of the posts where FWSs were interacting with BSs I wondered why would they do it? It was a serious question. Not that not everyone should be here, but why put up with the constant blame they feel? Why tell your story over and over again but claim you don't want to? 
I was told it was to help, but I don't see that happening for either side and it seems hard to believe that someone would keep putting themselves out there with the same results.

The Reconciliation folder was mentioned, but it is a ghost-town. Normally 25-30 viewers to the 600-700+ here. I should be there myself, I guess, but there is little to respond to.

It makes me wonder why? I think the emotions are much closer to the surface here and there seems to be a draw to that. Maybe some just need an argument with someone other than their spouse?


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> headspin...not one time have i ever blamed you for your wife's infidelity...not one time have i ever blamed any betrayed spouse..not once...including my own.


 But you do agree with others that do hold and show that opinion no matter what you say about your use of the 'like' function. 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> EI and B1 tell the same story....if there was an issue between the two of them...if they were asking for help...i understand how you might want to voice your opinion...what i do not understand is why it bothers you so much..


It tends not to bother me that much for ages and tbh I bite the bullet and keep out of it but recently the build up up of this attitude on here has finally got me and many others irritated and I've finally said something about it. About time someone did 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> I don't necessarily agree with everything EI says...but i never tear her apart and tell her that she did it wrong.


 Neither do I but finally on this occasion I have done 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> Do you not see...that what you are doing is helping no one?


Helping ? That's not the point. We are a community on here with diverse views and stances and often I and others see stuff that we leave let go ........ but not this time 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> It doesn't matter...they are fine...if they say they are fine why cant you just accept it and move on?


 What does that mean? I really have no idea what you're saying with that. If they are fine good luck to them. That is not what this conversation is about not from me anyway 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> You are upset over something that has no bearing on your life in any way. Let it go...put her on ignore... put me on ignore...then you wont see anything we post.


I'm entitled to an opinion on anything in matters of infidelity adultery as it's what brought me here so as much as you might have one - I'll have mine


----------

