# Bait and Switch. Always the man's fault?



## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

So i've read a lot of posts on this site where the bait and switch has occured. Each and every time, it is turned around to be the man's fault. Now, I know each party has their role in a relationship, but why should the man adjust his emotional output to change the woman, why doesn't she increase her sexual output to change the man? I know sometimes, when I am in a funk, my wife will give me some and I am back at it, taking out the trash without being asked, doing dishes, talking to her about feelings and stuff. It just seems to be the repeated trend, the women on here, and some of the guys, automatically jump down the men's throat. We are both adults responsible for our actions, so shouldn't women be blamed just as much?


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

This is what has happened to me! Baited and switched!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Women are emotional by nature.

As much as men need sex, a woman needs to feel emotionally connected in order to give out good sex. Without being emotionally connected, we can have sex, but we feel gross about it and in the end, the sex will be bad and we'll resent you for "only wanting sex from us".

It's not difficult to understand. I bet when you dated your wife/gf, you talked to her a lot! She felt connected to you--- so--- sex was on.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

mikeydread1982 said:


> So i've read a lot of posts on this site where the bait and switch has occured. Each and every time, it is turned around to be the man's fault. Now, I know each party has their role in a relationship, but why should the man adjust his emotional output to change the woman, why doesn't she increase her sexual output to change the man? I know sometimes, when I am in a funk, my wife will give me some and I am back at it, taking out the trash without being asked, doing dishes, talking to her about feelings and stuff. It just seems to be the repeated trend, the women on here, and some of the guys, automatically jump down the men's throat. We are both adults responsible for our actions, so shouldn't women be blamed just as much?


Women should be blamed just as much. Usually, a low sex marriage is because both spouses have slacked off on behaviors that attract the other spouse. Sometimes, you can zero in on exactly which spouse slacked off first, which caused the other spouse to slack off. Sometimes, you can't.

However, usually men are the ones to complain about the lack of sex in a forum such as this. And, since one can only control one's own actions, we usually counsel the man to change in order to attract his wife. That may not be fair, especially if the wife is more to blame than the husband. But, somebody has to break the stalemate.

So I don't think there's any misandrist vibe on these forums. We're just working with what we've got, which is usually men dealing with lower drive wives.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> This is what has happened to me! Baited and switched!


LMAO!

Sorry candiegirl, it just struck me funny seeing a woman post a bait n switch for a change.

To the OP yes both adults are responsible and yes I also note the gender bias in many of the posts around here.

Don`t know what can be done about it other than pointing it out when you see it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I know 2 females personally who were baited and switched in the bedroom. They hate their sex-lives and are starting to hate their spouses.

I just think sometimes women don't talk about it as much (their men losing interest/low libido) because they don't wnt people to think they are undesirable or that their man has a problem.

Looking back, my ex had a low drive. He was weird with sex. I need it almost every day  He could survive on once a month. Gross. It's a reason why I left (among many others).


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

that_girl said:


> I just think sometimes women don't talk about it as much (their men losing interest/low libido) *because they don't wnt people to think they are undesirable* or that their man has a problem.


That`s a point I hadn`t thought of.

It might be harder on a females ego than a mans.

In that light it`s understandable.


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## Anubis (Jul 12, 2011)

Each of answers this from our own viewpoint and experiences. You're going to seem division along gender lines I'll bet.

No, I don't think it's always the man's fault. I think many women use sex as the bait to get a man to commit (weather consciously or not is up for debate), and once he does.. boom. they got what they wanted, and have the man locked in, so they refocus their attentions elsewhere. I've seen it happen to several guys I personally know, and I personally consider it to be more the woman's fault for being dishonest about her true values and goals.

Of course, my personal viewpoints are potentially colored by what happened in my first marriage.. bait. switch. Only interested in sex to get pregnant. multiple affairs while frigid with me.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

I don't want to end my marriage over this. But I'm pretty mad about it - the more I thnk about it, YES, I was baited and switched. Didn't even get any on my wedding night; had to wait all the way until the following afternoon. Been downhill ever since. Colisse!


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

mikeydread1982 said:


> I know sometimes, when I am in a funk, my wife will give me some and I am back at it, taking out the trash without being asked, doing dishes, talking to her about feelings and stuff.


I'm reading this as you stop doing all that stuff because you aren't getting any sex, is that right? And the minute you get sex, you're back at doing those things? 

Can't that get you in a stale mate, so to speak?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> I don't want to end my marriage over this. But I'm pretty mad about it - the more I thnk about it, YES, I was baited and switched. Didn't even get any on my wedding night; had to wait all the way until the following afternoon. Been downhill ever since. Colisse!


SUCKS! UGH!  As a very sexual woman, I don't know how you hang. It would be a very HUGE deal breaker for me.

I'd rather be single and get sex, than married and have to be reminded all the time that I have no sex life.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

Cherry said:


> I'm reading this as you stop doing all that stuff because you aren't getting any sex, is that right? And the minute you get sex, you're back at doing those things?
> 
> Can't that get you in a stale mate, so to speak?



Cherry, yes it can. But sometimes, just as women need that emotional boost to get them in gear, men do too. In no way am I saying men don't slack off. It just seems that women take it as a reason to fall off as well, rather than give their man a pick-me-upper and realign his chi. lol.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Women are emotional by nature.
> 
> As much as men need sex, a woman needs to feel emotionally connected in order to give out good sex. Without being emotionally connected, we can have sex, but we feel gross about it and in the end, the sex will be bad and we'll resent you for "only wanting sex from us".
> 
> It's not difficult to understand. I bet when you dated your wife/gf, you talked to her a lot! She felt connected to you--- so--- sex was on.


But the same can be said for us, it seems all you want are emotions. So what you're saying is that you're not truly attracted to me, but I just filled an emotional need and my payment is sex? Sounds like high class hookery to me. The same way most women use sex to trap a guy in the beginning, it should be the same in the end, obviously it worked the first time, why stop now?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

mikeydread1982 said:


> But the same can be said for us, it seems all you want are emotions. So what you're saying is that you're not truly attracted to me, but I just filled an emotional need and my payment is sex? Sounds like high class hookery to me. The same way most women use sex to trap a guy in the beginning, it should be the same in the end, obviously it worked the first time, why stop now?


Oh don't get me wrong. I'm a horndog :rofl: My hubs and I go at it like bunnies 

I'm not talking about payment 
Wtf?

This is a chicken and the egg situation then. Who's to say who's right?

I just know in my marriage, sex is good. I just wanted to say how many women feel about sex. I guess men don't get how sex feels for a woman, because they are the ones "taking" it and pounding away. lol.

I'm not a hooker just because I like conversation with my husband. I'm not a hooker just because when we have those conversations, it makes me want to jump his bones.

Is he a hooker when I jump him at 2am and then he takes out the trash the next day?

:rofl: nope.

It's a healthy balance in my marriage. Sorry you see it as hookery.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

I am victim of the baiting as well, but my wife pulled the switch after cheating on me while dating. That right there, made no sense at all. After resolution, or progression, for use of a better word, sex was still not a priority, so now, when I see how sexual she is being, it makes me feel as if she is trying to bait me for something else. Well, this **** is joining all the other sports lock-outs.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

And when you start dating a woman, what do you do? Just go ask for sex? No. You woo her. You take her out, talk to her, act like you're interested, right?  In hopes of just getting to know another human being? HA! Not. You want to have sex with her. So don't through "hookery" into the mix here.

But that being said, a woman likes when you talk to her and all of that. After marriage, that usually stops because "why should you woo your wife?" Right? Then sex starts to dwindle because she thinks you don't have time for her and you think she's a betch because she stops wanting sex.

It's a vicious cycle.

Just talk to your wife. Dang. Is it too much to ask for people to talk to each other? 

Hubs and I hang out a couple hours every night. Good beer, good video game, good laughs. Nothing too deep in conversation, ew....just fun! No wonder our bed is hot


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

I don't know if my situation cold be called bait and switch, but as teenagers she was so horny for sex. She got pregnant at 16 and we got married. There are many reasons that the sex cooled off, pregnant, new baby, etc. However, I discovered along the way (counseling and reading) that a woman does need to feel emotionally connected to want sex unlike men who need sex to gain emotional connection. I needed to learn how to treat her with love and respect. I also learned (and have read recently again) that about 30% of women are neutral in their desire for sex until they get started. I had to get past wishing she would initiate more often. So I don't ask, I just go for it and 95% of the time she goes with it and gets into it. Today, over 39 years later, it is really good.

My point? In my case how I was treating her had a direct correlation on the quantity and quality of sex. It was about 75% on me.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

mikeydread1982 said:


> I am victim of the baiting as well, but my wife pulled the switch after cheating on me while dating. That right there, made no sense at all. After resolution, or progression, for use of a better word, sex was still not a priority, so now, when I see how sexual she is being, it makes me feel as if she is trying to bait me for something else. Well, this **** is joining all the other sports lock-outs.


Wait. You married someone who cheated on you while you were dating...then after cheating she stopped wanting sex with you...and you still married her?


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Oh don't get me wrong. I'm a horndog :rofl: My hubs and I go at it like bunnies
> 
> I'm not talking about payment
> Wtf?
> ...



Ok, maybe hookery was too harsh 

I am just saying for women Emotions = Sex
and for men Sex= Emotions 
I just found it quite disparaging how it always seems to be men being blamed for their lack of sex. But as one poster alluded to, it's because men, strangely enough, also get emotional when there is no sex. I am going to come up with a algebraic formula for this. Sex+Emotions =  (Everyone)
Emotions-Sex=  (Men)
Sex-Emotion= :rofl: (Men)
Emotions-Sex= :roflWomen)

I'll make it more scientific later. lol


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

romantic_guy said:


> I don't know if my situation cold be called bait and switch, but as teenagers she was so horny for sex. She got pregnant at 16 and we got married. There are many reasons that the sex cooled off, pregnant, new baby, etc. However, I discovered along the way (counseling and reading) that a woman does need to feel emotionally connected to want sex unlike men who need sex to gain emotional connection. I needed to learn how to treat her with love and respect. I also learned (and have read recently again) that about 30% of women are neutral in their desire for sex until they get started. I had to get past wishing she would initiate more often. So I don't ask, I just go for it and 95% of the time she goes with it and gets into it. Today, over 39 years later, it is really good.
> 
> My point? In my case how I was treating her had a direct correlation on the quantity and quality of sex. It was about 75% on me.


You speak truth 

Men have sex to feel close, women need closeness to have sex.

Nothing new.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

mikeydread1982 said:


> Ok, maybe hookery was too harsh
> 
> I am just saying for women Emotions = Sex
> and for men Sex= Emotions
> ...


All I'm wondering is how is it so hard to hang out with your wife? Should she just jump you (assuming sex is an issue in your marriage)? I mean, show a little humanity.

I see it a lot on this board where people let their pride bring them to a forever standstill. That's just silly and a waste of time. "I shouldn't have to hang out with her! She should just want sex!" Well, bricks, you aren't hanging out with her now and how's your sex life?

That's what I thought.

Be the change you want to see. You can say I'm full of shet, but I think many people who try to "change" just do it with a bad attitude and still have expectations. If those expectations aren't met, the person goes back to being the way they were...

I dunno. I change myself which changed my whole marriage. It can be done. But...I let my ego go and did things for my husband that before I thought I 'shouldn't have to do'.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

that_girl said:


> And when you start dating a woman, what do you do? Just go ask for sex? No. You woo her. You take her out, talk to her, act like you're interested, right?  In hopes of just getting to know another human being? HA! Not. You want to have sex with her. So don't through "hookery" into the mix here.
> 
> But that being said, a woman likes when you talk to her and all of that. After marriage, that usually stops because "why should you woo your wife?" Right? Then sex starts to dwindle because she thinks you don't have time for her and you think she's a betch because she stops wanting sex.
> 
> ...


Well, that's another thing, there are obviously other issues anytime people have these problems. Like my wife can't have a drink without passing out 10 minutes later, super lightweight. So there goes any drunk sex. And because of prior infidelities, hers followed by mine, she has an issue with light convo, takes eeeeeverything out of context. And yes I married her after she cheated, I know, she was the first woman I ever loved. See why love is dumb. Lol


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

mikeydread1982 said:


> Well, that's another thing, there are obviously other issues anytime people have these problems. Like my wife can't have a drink without passing out 10 minutes later, super lightweight. So there goes any drunk sex. And because of prior infidelities, hers followed by mine, she has an issue with light convo, takes eeeeeverything out of context. And yes I married her after she cheated, I know, she was the first woman I ever loved. See why love is dumb. Lol


Love isn't dumb, you just can't let it cloud your decisions.

So you both cheated? And you wonder why you aren't intimate?

How much have you worked through your infidelity?

I mean, cheating is a HUGE killer of sex and feeling close. I don't know if I could be this open with Hubs if he cheated.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

mikeydread1982 said:


> Cherry, yes it can. But sometimes, just as women need that emotional boost to get them in gear, men do too. In no way am I saying men don't slack off. It just seems that women take it as a reason to fall off as well, rather than give their man a pick-me-upper and realign his chi. lol.


I understand. And I guess it can be a slippery slope.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

romantic_guy said:


> I don't know if my situation cold be called bait and switch, but as teenagers she was so horny for sex. She got pregnant at 16 and we got married. There are many reasons that the sex cooled off, pregnant, new baby, etc. However, I discovered along the way (counseling and reading) that a woman does need to feel emotionally connected to want sex unlike men who need sex to gain emotional connection. I needed to learn how to treat her with love and respect. I also learned (and have read recently again) that about 30% of women are neutral in their desire for sex until they get started. I had to get past wishing she would initiate more often. So I don't ask, I just go for it and 95% of the time she goes with it and gets into it. Today, over 39 years later, it is really good.
> 
> My point? In my case how I was treating her had a direct correlation on the quantity and quality of sex. It was about 75% on me.



But again, this is leaving it all up to the man to alter the mental state of another adult. It should be mutual. 50/50. And if life is happening and you don't have much time except for the occasional date night, can a man only count on those nights to get some? Come on. This is why i'm saying it seems as if only guys are responsible for how much sex they get and in no way the wife accountable. How about giving the man a bj for keeping the lights, cable on and paying $6,000 a year in Kindergarten tuition?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I guess I don't get it because I never have an issue with sex.

If I did though, if Hubs was cold in bed, I would try what I could to meet his needs. It's not always the man's fault. No. But it's usually the man's problem, no? 

You can't change anyone but yourself. If you want sex, go about getting it. If you don't want to do that because you feel like it's "giving in", then you can enjoy being sexless.

If you try and still are rebuffed and your wife won't tell you why, then personally, there's no marriage there. Divorce. Find someone who feels the same about sex as you do. That was how I fell for Hubs (among other things). We view sex and sexuality very similar and never use it against each other.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

that_girl said:


> All I'm wondering is how is it so hard to hang out with your wife? Should she just jump you (assuming sex is an issue in your marriage)? I mean, show a little humanity.
> 
> I see it a lot on this board where people let their pride bring them to a forever standstill. That's just silly and a waste of time. "I shouldn't have to hang out with her! She should just want sex!" Well, bricks, you aren't hanging out with her now and how's your sex life?
> 
> ...


We're saying the same thing here, you, a WOMAN, made the change, and did not rely on him to make it happen. And would never say you're full of it based on your opinion. Especially a rational one.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

mikeydread1982 said:


> But again, this is leaving it all up to the man to alter the mental state of another adult. It should be mutual. 50/50. And if life is happening and you don't have much time except for the occasional date night, can a man only count on those nights to get some? Come on. This is why i'm saying it seems as if only guys are responsible for how much sex they get and in no way the wife accountable. How about giving the man a bj for keeping the lights, cable on and paying $6,000 a year in Kindergarten tuition?


How much time do you need to see your wife? Don't you see her every day? Do you just say hi and then go do your thing?

I don't get that either. Hubs and I hang out and talk every day. We're close and that helps a TON.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

that_girl said:


> I guess I don't get it because I never have an issue with sex.
> 
> If I did though, if Hubs was cold in bed, I would try what I could to meet his needs. It's not always the man's fault. No. But it's usually the man's problem, no?
> 
> ...


Agreed. However, I was being facetious in implying that I would play hardball in that manner. It's just that now, even though wife and I are in a good place emotionally, the back and forthing with the sex has left me not interested any longer. Despite that, last night, we played some Mario on the Wii with our daughter, snuggled and watched TV, talked about some stuff, not within our relationship, and went to bed. I'm sure she thought I would jump at the opportunity, I just don't feel like playing the game anymore. So, see, I give emotions, expecting zero sex.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

mikeydread1982 said:


> But again, this is leaving it all up to the man to alter the mental state of another adult. It should be mutual. 50/50. And if life is happening and you don't have much time except for the occasional date night, can a man only count on those nights to get some? Come on. This is why i'm saying it seems as if only guys are responsible for how much sex they get and in no way the wife accountable. How about giving the man a bj for keeping the lights, cable on and paying $6,000 a year in Kindergarten tuition?


To be sure, my wife has responsibilities for the relationship, I am just saying that in my case, I was driving her away by the way In was treating her. And to "giving the man a bj for keeping the lights, cable on and paying $6,000 a year in Kindergarten tuition?" I could say what about her cooking, cleaning, doiing the laundry, raising the kids, etc.? She could have used a little help from me. (I helped some, but not nearly enough). That certainly would have gotten me more sex especially since one of her "love languages" is acts of service.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

This forum reminds my husband and I that we are blessed to have an amazing sexual connection. Our sex life has been hot since we started sleeping together five years ago. Marriage has added a sweetness to our lovemaking.

I started a thread about a similar bias that exists on this forum: 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/35021-double-standard.html

Making love because your husband turns you on and courts you is...prostitution? Jesus Claus, we are all filthy skanks then!


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

that_girl said:


> How much time do you need to see your wife? Don't you see her every day? Do you just say hi and then go do your thing?
> 
> I don't get that either. Hubs and I hang out and talk every day. We're close and that helps a TON.


:iagree:

We are best friends and can't wait to spend time together on the weekends!


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

FirstYearDown said:


> This forum reminds my husband and I that we are blessed to have an amazing sexual connection. Our sex life has been hot since we started sleeping together five years ago. Marriage has added a sweetness to our lovemaking.
> 
> I started a thread about a similar double standard that exists on this forum:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/35021-double-standard.html


FirstYear, I wished I looked up double standard, as I wanted to ensure I was repeating a thread, but you nailed it. Double Standard! And the thing is, some guys support that foolishness too. Oh well. At least i'm not the only one that sees it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

romantic_guy said:


> To be sure, my wife has responsibilities for the relationship, I am just saying that in my case, I was driving her away by the way In was treating her. And to "giving the man a bj for keeping the lights, cable on and paying $6,000 a year in Kindergarten tuition?" I could say what about her cooking, cleaning, doiing the laundry, raising the kids, etc.? She could have used a little help from me. (I helped some, but not nearly enough). That certainly would have gotten me more sex especially since one of her "love languages" is acts of service.


My husband's love language is "acts" and I didn't get that until our separation. 

Now that I get it, and do many acts of service for him (from laundry to dinner to sweeping HIS garage), man oh MAN does he meet my needs 

But I didn't sit and talk about how I shouldn't have to do anything...that he should just KNOW what I need, blah blah blah. 

I changed my behaviour to love him. I honestly didn't know if it would help me love me...but it did


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

I wondered about this when I started reading threads here. It seemed as if it was always the higher-drived spouse's fault: it was assumed that they no longer courted their spouse or worked to meet their emotional needs, etc. 

I thought - what if we just did it the other way: "Spouses with more emotional needs should just have sex more and MAYBE they can start thinking about their spouse desiring to make an emotional connection with them again. However, don't expect anything too soon; these scars - from the sexlessness - do not fade quickly." 

But then I realized - this forum is NOT about blaming one spouse. It's about suggesting things that may help even a totally blameless HD spouse. We could all chime and say: "Your H/W is terrible! How dare they!" but what would this do? These people are trying to get sexless marriages out of the rut, not assign blame. 

I'm amazed by the members of this forum. They are uncommonly helpful, empathetic, and knowledgable.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> I wondered about this when I started reading threads here. It seemed as if it was always the higher-drived spouse's fault: it was assumed that they no longer courted their spouse or worked to meet their emotional needs, etc.
> 
> I thought - what if we just did it the other way: "Spouses with more emotional needs should just have sex more and MAYBE they can start thinking about their spouse desiring to make an emotional connection with them again. However, don't expect anything too soon; these scars - from the sexlessness - do not fade quickly."
> 
> ...


Also, we only hear one side of the story...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

mikeydread1982 said:


> Cherry, yes it can. But sometimes, just as women need that emotional boost to get them in gear, men do too. In no way am I saying men don't slack off. It just seems that women take it as a reason to fall off as well, rather than give their man a pick-me-upper and realign his chi. lol.


Agree.

Another phenomenon I see is that women tend to only appreciate the big showy displays of love and affection. Big things like the man working harder than he normally would so his wife can have a life of affluence, and little things like always taking out the trash and always agreeing to watch the TV shows and movies his wife wants fade to the background.

So, sometimes the rut is just doing the same old thing and what is needed is to shake things up and pull back a bit.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

I've avoided the bait and switch threads because I know deep down that it is just the way it is. After my dissolution I even had more than one person tell me that others had blamed me for not fulfilling my ex's sexual desires either by not being available because of work hours required to provide for her and her children. Or, simply because she didn't find me sexually attractive and I should have realized my "faults" before "trapping her in a twenty year "marriage".
Life's good now that I no longer am disappointing her in ANY WAY.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I see a few reasons why it appears to always be the man's fault:

One, more men than women post about the lack of sex. Right or wrong, women who are refused can be fearful of being considered defective, as in "99.9% of guys are horndogs, and I'm always down for what he wants to do. Something must be wrong with me if I cannot get him to f*** me". More men posting leads to more visibilitiy to men's issues which makes it look like we are blaming them more.

Two, our society (or at least certain segments) devalue sex as a base urge and elevate women as more classy and sophisticated. How often is a man told he should subordinate his feelings to his wife, that even if he does everything right and she still won't sleep with him he should tolerate it cheerfully? How many religions say that sex is carnal, is not just for pleasure but really should be for procreation, etc.?


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## alphapuppy (Jan 17, 2012)

tacoma said:


> LMAO!
> 
> Sorry candiegirl, it just struck me funny seeing a woman post a bait n switch for a change.
> 
> ...


Yeah, exactly. Why does this have to be about gender. The point is, the spouse who doesn't want to have sex usually doesn't want to have it for a reason -- they don't feel safe or respected, typically.


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

I was a victim of the classic bait and switch. Given how often this has happened to men I know as well as myself, I've not been able to trust women around this topic ever since. No matter what they tell me today, I know they can and often do change for the worse. As soon as tomorrow!

But I made a resolution recently: I will go for LTRs anyway, but make it clear that if the sex goes dead and it's not physical issues and not my fault, I'm gone. At my age, I am well aware of women's emotional needs and will do my best around them, but, but ... my drive is still quite high so I refuse to put up with bait and switch again until I'm old and can't get it up anymore.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I would make it more generalized. By the time you get to my age your emotional baggage better have some wheels because I'm not carrying it and you can just coast the hell on out of here with that.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> I wondered about this when I started reading threads here. It seemed as if it was always the higher-drived spouse's fault: it was assumed that they no longer courted their spouse or worked to meet their emotional needs, etc.
> 
> I thought - what if we just did it the other way: "Spouses with more emotional needs should just have sex more and MAYBE they can start thinking about their spouse desiring to make an emotional connection with them again. However, don't expect anything too soon; these scars - from the sexlessness - do not fade quickly."
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree that the group on this forum is uncommly helpful. Not everyone can afford counselling, and not everyone is comfortable talking about sex, even in counselling. The ability to talk anonomously about this issue, and be able to relate to others who are going through similar issues is sometimes all that is needed.

Even if there is no solution... just being able to share and knowing other people have experienced this is helpful.

I think the other part of the bait and switch alternative is that everyone has their own personal dealbreakers.

Some people won't accept it. And that brings them forward to seek help. More of a male trait. 

Women are more inclined to just accept it. Society says so.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

mikeydread1982 said:


> So i've read a lot of posts on this site where the bait and switch has occured. Each and every time, it is turned around to be the man's fault. Now, I know each party has their role in a relationship, but why should the man adjust his emotional output to change the woman, why doesn't she increase her sexual output to change the man? I know sometimes, when I am in a funk, my wife will give me some and I am back at it, taking out the trash without being asked, doing dishes, talking to her about feelings and stuff. It just seems to be the repeated trend, the women on here, and some of the guys, automatically jump down the men's throat. We are both adults responsible for our actions, so shouldn't women be blamed just as much?


At significant risk of sounding harsh, no... I don't think you are both 'adults', or acting like them.

She 'gives you some' and you 'take out the trash without being asked'. Sheesh. How nice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

Well, a man wants to do more things for his wife if she is taking care of him physically. 

I sure wouldn't want to cook for my husband if he refused to make love to me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TG,
I think u r right for some marriages. This past weekend: tennis, mini golf, racquetball 

All 3 really fun. And sure we connected twice - but I didn't do any of that other stuff hoping to get lucky. The other stuff - oh yeah I forgot a nice Italian dinner with friends as well - that other stuff was just fun in itself. She is fun. 


UOTE=that_girl;555617]All I'm wondering is how is it so hard to hang out with your wife? Should she just jump you (assuming sex is an issue in your marriage)? I mean, show a little humanity.

I see it a lot on this board where people let their pride bring them to a forever standstill. That's just silly and a waste of time. "I shouldn't have to hang out with her! She should just want sex!" Well, bricks, you aren't hanging out with her now and how's your sex life?

That's what I thought.

Be the change you want to see. You can say I'm full of shet, but I think many people who try to "change" just do it with a bad attitude and still have expectations. If those expectations aren't met, the person goes back to being the way they were...

I dunno. I change myself which changed my whole marriage. It can be done. But...I let my ego go and did things for my husband that before I thought I 'shouldn't have to do'.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

DTO said:


> I see a few reasons why it appears to always be the man's fault:
> 
> One, more men than women post about the lack of sex. Right or wrong, women who are refused can be fearful of being considered defective, as in "99.9% of guys are horndogs, and I'm always down for what he wants to do. Something must be wrong with me if I cannot get him to f*** me". More men posting leads to more visibilitiy to men's issues which makes it look like we are blaming them more.
> 
> Two, our society (or at least certain segments) devalue sex as a base urge and elevate women as more classy and sophisticated. *How often is a man told he should subordinate his feelings to his wife, that even if he does everything right and she still won't sleep with him he should tolerate it cheerfully?* How many religions say that sex is carnal, is not just for pleasure but really should be for procreation, etc.?



That's done here a lot.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

anotherguy said:


> At significant risk of sounding harsh, no... I don't think you are both 'adults', or acting like them.
> 
> She 'gives you some' and you 'take out the trash without being asked'. Sheesh. How nice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





FirstYearDown said:


> Well, a man wants to do more things for his wife if she is taking care of him physically.
> 
> I sure wouldn't want to cook for my husband if he refused to make love to me.


Thank you FirstYear, need I say more another guy? And you're not sounding harsh, we're adults discussing an adult topic. i think we leave feelings at the door. anyhow, to piggyback on FirstYear's comment, it is 50/50. I will take out the trash in my house, for it is after all, my house. But I won't want to do anything FOR my wife if she's not satisfying me, just as how I wouldn't expect her to if I were not. I just find it strange that every person that is a victim of a bait and switch, typically men, have all just stopped doing things that would get us the sex we wanted. That's basically saying that every woman that baited and switched is warranted in their behavior. If they feel that way, then maybe they should leave, not hold out on me as punishment.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

I have definitely found a way to avoid the bait and switch, common law mariage. Don't ever make it official, and both parties can walk away whenever they choose. Well, unless you live in one of those stupid states that still gives her half after 7 or more years. 
Everyone gets comfortable in a marriage, things do slack off, and if I stop listening to you about crazy *****es at work, and stop taking you out or taking you on trips, and stop watching your shows on TV, despite how mind numbing they tend to be, then withholding sex should not even be a consideration.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

mikeydread1982 said:


> I have definitely found a way to avoid the bait and switch, common law mariage. Don't ever make it official, and both parties can walk away whenever they choose. Well, unless you live in one of those stupid states that still gives her half after 7 or more years.
> Everyone gets comfortable in a marriage, things do slack off, and if I stop listening to you about crazy *****es at work, and stop taking you out or taking you on trips, and stop watching your shows on TV, despite how mind numbing they tend to be, then withholding sex should not even be a consideration.


Horrible solution. Depressing actually. People can get comfortable in ANY long term relationship. If I was with someone who would just "walk away" when things got bad...lollll...I'd tell him not even to bother- Leave now! 

Just marry someone who holds the same values. Not just lip service "yea yea I like sex" but really holds the same values.

Why do you think I waited until I was 33 to get married? It wasn't by accident. I had to find someone as freaky as myself in the bedroom


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

that_girl said:


> SUCKS! UGH!  As a very sexual woman, I don't know how you hang. It would be a very HUGE deal breaker for me.
> 
> I'd rather be single and get sex, than married and have to be reminded all the time that I have no sex life.


Sadly, I too, am losing my sex drive...one more problem to add to the pile. But this one will probably be the end of us, unless we fix it. I'm 41 and unwilling to go without for the rest of my life. I know my disinterest is temporary; H needs prodding. We're seeing MC about it and he's willing to see a doctor for other issues that impede desire/capability. It's a start!


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Horrible solution. Depressing actually. People can get comfortable in ANY long term relationship. If I was with someone who would just "walk away" when things got bad...lollll...I'd tell him not even to bother- Leave now!
> 
> Just marry someone who holds the same values. Not just lip service "yea yea I like sex" but really holds the same values.
> 
> Why do you think I waited until I was 33 to get married? It wasn't by accident. I had to find someone as freaky as myself in the bedroom


Funny you say that, because with this very topic, when people say they are experiencing the bait and switch and the idea of cheating crosses their mind, the first thing everyone says is to just leave. My idea just makes the process less complicated. Because, not sure if you realize, people scarred by the bait and switch either want to cheat, or leave anyway. so.....
Although, I do agree with you on one thing (surprise, surprise), waiting to get married in your 30's is probably the smartest thing 2 people can do. I didn't do it, and I see where at times I feel as if I missed out on fully experiencing my 20's. But, one must play the cards that they picked from the deck, not what was just dealt.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

that_girl said:


> And when you start dating a woman, what do you do? Just go ask for sex? No. You woo her. You take her out, talk to her, act like you're interested, right?  In hopes of just getting to know another human being? HA! Not. You want to have sex with her. So don't through "hookery" into the mix here.
> 
> But that being said, a woman likes when you talk to her and all of that. After marriage, that usually stops because "why should you woo your wife?" Right? Then sex starts to dwindle because she thinks you don't have time for her and you think she's a betch because she stops wanting sex.
> 
> ...


Sounds great! My H has 20 years on yours, though...


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

In the end it does seem like a double standard (myself included). I just was re-reading a couple of the hd wife threads that we have had pop up. Most advice given to them was about what they need to get their husbands to do. On most threads where it is the man who is hd most advice that is given is what they need to do. Ya it does seem like a sexless marriage is almost always left up to the man to fix. Why is that?


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Well, it is up to the man to fix when the man is the one who doesn't want the sex! What are we supposed to do, beg? I've come close, believe me.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

And not to say I didn't know beforehand that this area would be challenging...but right after those rings went on, everything started sliding downhill; he doesn't have to try anymore, we're married, he feels safe.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Well, it is up to the man to fix when the man is the one who doesn't want the sex! What are we supposed to do, beg? I've come close, believe me.


But it's also up to the man to fix it when the woman doesn't want sex also. Which is what I find odd.:scratchhead:


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Well, that I don't agree with. It's a tough situation to be in. In our case, there are many underlying factors...I have to say, though, that my husband knows that there is a problem and is willing to take steps to fix it; it's just very very slow going at the moment. That's why it FEELS like bait & switch. Really, it probably isnt', it's just me being pissed off...


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

mikeydread1982 said:


> Thank you FirstYear, need I say more another guy? And you're not sounding harsh, we're adults discussing an adult topic. i think we leave feelings at the door. anyhow, to piggyback on FirstYear's comment, it is 50/50. I will take out the trash in my house, for it is after all, my house. But I won't want to do anything FOR my wife if she's not satisfying me, just as how I wouldn't expect her to if I were not. I just find it strange that every person that is a victim of a bait and switch, typically men, have all just stopped doing things that would get us the sex we wanted. That's basically saying that every woman that baited and switched is warranted in their behavior. If they feel that way, then maybe they should leave, not hold out on me as punishment.


Yeah, I just disagree on the mindset. I think I read in another thread somewhere that if you are in a 'transactional' relationship, you have bigger problems - and I couldnt agree more. You are forever going to be in a tit-for-tat rut, and what good is that? You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours? Seriously - what good is that? Payment? You owe me? 'What have you done for me lately'?

Yeah - I know it is far, far too easy to start talking about how love isnt about receiving and all that tripe, how marriage is supposed to be a partnership of improving ourselves and enabling our spouses to do the same. But you hear that crap all the time because its true. You hear its work because its true. Getting preocccupied with the other half because they are not holding up their end of the 'deal' is so missing the point, so broken.

But man - I hear you. I hope I never find myself in that place. I have no ambition to test out all my virtuous pontification and self righeous diatribe. 

That_Girls comment about just 'talking' to her is probably the best advice so far on this thread. You cant both be fumbling around in the dark slowly building resentment.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Being able to 'leave a relationship' at any time isn't going to build intimacy.

I have been in many "casual" relationships and the heartache felt the same. So...your 'fix' to this is still horrible, imo.

How about people truly get to know someone sexually BEFORE marriage. Oh wait, that goes against so many religions! So...then have this situation. Hubs and I talked a lot about sex before we had sex. Then after we had sex, we talked even more about sex. I had been in SO MANY sexually stupid relationships. Well, not so many LOL but every one before Hubs was just boring and dull and infrequent. I wasn't going to settle for that at all!

Thankfully, hubs rocks my world and I his. BUt that wasn't by chance...it was careful picking. Had he been a prude like many other people I dated, I would have stopped dating him too.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Being able to 'leave a relationship' at any time isn't going to build intimacy.
> 
> I have been in many "casual" relationships and the heartache felt the same. So...your 'fix' to this is still horrible, imo.
> 
> ...


The whole point of bait and switch is the fact that many though they knew someone sexually before marriage, hence the bait. The switch comes after the ring is on the finger. Not saying that happened to me, but I do feel for the people it happens to.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

uphillbattle said:


> The whole point of bait and switch is the fact that many though they knew someone sexually before marriage, hence the bait. The switch comes after the ring is on the finger. Not saying that happened to me, but I do feel for the people it happens to.


No, I don't think most people know their mate sexually all that well before marriage.

They ignore little red flags here and there and they ignore the small expressions of the face when certain things are brought up--- if they're brought up at all.

The bait is frequent sex. That doesn't mean it's a good understanding of what sexuality means to that person.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

that_girl said:


> No, I don't think most people know their mate sexually all that well before marriage.


We lived together for 5 years, dated for a couple years before that. We had some opinions.

I dont know if sexual familiarity with a partner before marriage is as uncommon as you suggest? You know... based on a sampling of.... 1. OK, 2 since you feel you were well informed too. Oh yeah, my friend seems OK.... 

I think you are more likely to find young people who havent figured themselves out yet. Say getting married when you are 18 or 20. By the time you are older I would argue that it is not that you have become smarter at selecting a compatible partner (you probably have) - but that there is a smaller chance that you are going to radically change yourself as you have probably settled in to some extent as a person. Hey, is that 'bait and switch' just because you get married at 19 and grown up / changed a little?

Let me tell you. I was a very different person when I was 30 than when I was 20. Yeah I am different now too from 30, but the rate of change is slowing down from a personality perspective I suspect.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

yea...which makes me reiterate that I think marriage before 25 is no good. But that's just me.

Also, you may live with someone and have sex and all that, but how many people actually talk about sex and sexuality with their partner? Talk about the depth of their sexuality and what it means to them? Many of my girlfriends 'couldn't' as it was "too embarrassing". But yet they had no problem spreading their legs. I never understood that.

Sex is usually (and I say usually) good when things are light and new. I guess I learned from experience (2 men that I dated for a long while whom I realized were sexually imcompatible with me...after a couple YEARS of dating) that I would bring it up around the 3rd date. I was stuck in sexless relationships (not even married) because I never thought to talk about sex. Sure we were having sex, but around year 2, things started to die down. No good for me.

Luckily, Hubs and I were on the same page with what we liked, what we wanted and how often we wanted it. So i proceeded with dating him. Thankfully we're still on the same page (we talk about sex often) and even during our separation, sex was frequent and good. But that's just me.


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## Zhopa (Jan 18, 2012)

Of course it's the man's fault. For hanging on for years, changing this & that about himself, buying the house, putting her kid from another marriage through college, hoping that she might becoming interested in him again before he works himself into the ground finally. I know too many guys fooled that way... and yet we stay, too many of us, darned too many.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Well in my case the bait and switch is my husband's fault. He made the choice. He's now married to his computer games. 

It pissed me off. I am HD as he used to be.


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## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

I'm sure some of you have read my posts elsewhere on this....

I am in a sexless marriage...my wife is simply not interested in sex. I have 'manned up', done more than my fgair share in running the home, given her the massages, 'wined & dined' her etc.
She is simply not interested and when I try to speak to her about it she says 'sorry, I'm just not a sexual person..I am who I am'.

Yet its all my fault.... Why is it that in 90% of sexless (or nearly sexless) marriages it is the husband who is expected to reduce his libido to that of his wifes?
Husband would like sex1-2 times a week, wife happy with once a month. Husband has to accept it. 

I fully accept there are exceptions etc...but in general its ALWAYS our fault.... no matter.

Its very uplifting to read posts from women on here who take responsibility and understand...SimplyAmorous being one of them.


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## nicky1 (Jan 20, 2012)

if a wife cannot meet the needs of the man , he should get an additional wife to do this, or just go and find a new wife, maybe she forgot her vows to have and to hold means to satisfy each other in selflessness not restrain from it in selfishness


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## Hunch (Jan 18, 2012)

The Male version of bait and switch: H very attentive, caring loving, receptive to W's needs, so sex is frequent, varied and mutually enjoyable. After marriage, W wants to talk about her day, H says "shut up, I don't care about your problems and I don't see why I should. I will never be emotionally available to you." That translates in womanspeak to all these threads "no, I don't want to make love with you now we're married. Stop talking about it and putting me under pressure. Everything has to be perfect first." Can you IMAGINE how fast a W would divorce her husband if he said "I'm not talking to you, or showing you any attention, care or affection until everything is perfect."? ! 

Why are so many of the NoSex threads posted by men...? 

Oh and for wives who dont put out, don't see why they should and have no intention of doing so again because 'things arent perfect,' yet still expect their H not to take refuge in porn and his right hand- imagine the other way round- H to W "not only am I not going to show you an emotional connection, but I demand you do not seek verification, attention or praise from anywhere else, including the Internet. And you are not allowed to do anything to boost your self- esteem either." Sounds abusive the other way round, doesnt it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Hunch said:


> Why are so many of the NoSex threads posted by men...?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because as a woman...it's downright embarrassing to admit to anyone that your husband doesn't want sex. With you.
So he must be getting' it somewhere else.. and that's a very scary box to prod open. Easier to hide away and pretend you are okay. After all... the posts here make it seem that women don't want sex. Really, it's just the men that are seeking help. Not the women.


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## Zhopa (Jan 18, 2012)

That's just it, Jezza. If we're not interested, it's our problem... and we constantly seek to improve ourselves, get little blue pills etc. If she's not interested, we also seek to improve ourselves, to 'build intimacy' which is a scam to keep us going. 

Bait... switch. It's the way many corporations squeeze more and more work and overtime out of people, without so much as a cost-of-living raise. They don't *have *to pay, there's no incentive. During the yearly review, no matter how well we did during the year, they bring up *something* negative, often taken out of context, for us to 'work on'. They have so many stupid rules and conflicting policies, that there's no way we can follow all of them... but they have a bureaucrat writing down every time you delivered a status report a bit late after going the extra mile to turn a customer into a repeat customer. 

So it is, in marriage.

That's the bait-switch that goes on every day... oh honey do this, honey do that.... honey you can't have your music, you can't have your vinyl records... if there is something that makes a man happy, the wife will make him give it up one way or another, and the scam is to give as little sex as possible, with the bait of perhaps more sex someday if he plays along. The marriage counsellors are ready to prolong the marriage, and here's the brilliance of the scam: wife holds back on SO MUCH that it's easy for her to concede some small thing whilst the husband turns himself inside out to make himself a better person for her. 

Why in the world should she be attracted to a guy like that?

You do what she wants... and she just raises the bar.

And it makes lots of business for marriage counsellors. 

Robert Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy is brilliant; although I don't agree with some of his points, I got a lot out of it. It is similar to the '180' program which I've unwittingly used in many areas of my business, consulting, with interpersonal dealings the backbone of the business. The gist of it is, if something isn't working, why continue? 

Glover writes, 'Nice Guys have an uncanny knack of picking partners who, because of childhood sexual abuse or other negative experiences with sex, tend to have a difficult time being sexually expressive.' That's me ! They also won't talk about it. My wife, for example won't speak of any past relationships... we met at 37 and have been together for a decade, yet I only have some small clues. Yet it was OK for her to call me 'dishonest' in front of the counsellor when I kept details of previous relationships to myself. Of course this led to my agreeing to 'work on things', with the promise of 'building intimacy' and someday renewing her interest. 

Scam!



jezza said:


> ...my wife is simply not interested in sex. I have 'manned up', done more than my fgair share in running the home, given her the massages, 'wined & dined' her etc.
> She is simply not interested and when I try to speak to her about it she says 'sorry, I'm just not a sexual person..I am who I am'.
> 
> Yet its all my fault.... Why is it that in 90% of sexless (or nearly sexless) marriages it is the husband who is expected to reduce his libido to that of his wifes?... Husband has to accept it.
> ...


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Ah, well - I pretty much think it's usually a two-way street, with both people acting and reacting.

It reminds me of Newton's 1st and 3rd laws. (Sorry for the science lesson - one of my kids was working with these this week and it kind of struck me as to how it applies to people too.) 



> First law: The velocity of a body remains constant unless the body is acted upon by an external force.


People are kind of like this. They often remain in their own spheres, thoughts, and actions unless something happens outside of that to shake them up.




> Third law: The mutual forces of action and reaction between two bodies are equal, opposite and collinear.


Well, you know what they say - it takes two baby. 

Both husbands and wives become complacent and often hide their real thoughts and feelings from each other, fearful of what the other may think.


The only advice (other than offering suggestions on things that may be bugging or impeding their spouse) is to tell someone to smarten up - they can only change themself after all. But, by doing so, it may influence their spouse.

Bait and switch - bah, I don't really care. Either fish or cut bait. Action toward solving a problem, not continuously rehashing your woes, is where it's
at.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

JMO, but if someone knows who the person they are dating before marriage truly is and they marry them regardless of what they know, then to me its not really a bait and switch thing. However, if someone doesn't know and they are seeing a totally different person after marriage than before then yes I can understand how one might feel its bait and switch. Also, if a person is with someone who did a bait and switch on them and its effected the marriage greatly then perhaps you're with the wrong person.

I'm not saying to leave and divorce, just saying you're possibly with the wrong person. Also a person who continues to stay with a person who baited and switched them and you're unhappy about it and see no change in the future, well then you are at just as much fault for staying than the one who baited and switched on you.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

I guess there is such a thing as bait and switch. However, I also believe most people don't stay the same throughout life either. People change. Some for the better some not. What one might have liked at one point, one might not later on down the road. Doesn't necessarily mean they did a switch on their spouse, because they no longer like something or did something they used to.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> I guess there is such a thing as bait and switch. However, I also believe most people don't stay the same throughout life either. People change. Some for the better some not. What one might have liked at one point, one might not later on down the road. Doesn't necessarily mean they did a switch on their spouse, because they no longer like something or did something they used to.


And this is why I totally agree with that_girl that you are a complete and utter fool to get married before 27-30, where by that point, you have established a firm grasp on your personaity and habits. At that point, you find someone that suits the adult you.


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## Zhopa (Jan 18, 2012)

CallaLily said:


> ...I also believe most people don't stay the same throughout life either. People change. ...What one might have liked at one point, one might not later on down the road. Doesn't necessarily mean they did a switch on their spouse, because they no longer like something or did something they used to.


Sorry, CallaLily, I can't buy that. The timing of loss of interest coincides too closely and conveniently with being hooked. 

Too convenient that she can't manage to be attracted any more to a guy who treats her with respect, works his fingers to the bone to support the family, stays away from other women and even puts her child from a previous marriage through college, working & paying extra so the kid would not have to take student loans, but graduate debt-free. 

Ain't just about sex. You'd think I could have a turntable at home and play some vinyl records... but that must be banned as well. 

And then there's feminism... practically a new religion. The wife must not do anything FOR a man, everything has to be for herself. So for him she will not wear anything to bed but frumpy sweatpants and razor stubble. The Burkha of the West...

We men have to rise up ! and say, *no more*.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

alphapuppy said:


> Yeah, exactly. Why does this have to be about gender. The point is, the spouse who doesn't want to have sex usually doesn't want to have it for a reason -- they don't feel safe or respected, typically.


I get more excuses than I can write down, and I'm sick of it. I'm being punished and deprived of sex because of his stupid porn, or lack thereof. I rue the day that I made a big deal out of the porn; at least I was getting some then, even if it isn't even me he wanted.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Before I came to this site... I used to think that I had a good mindset about marriage. I never questioned what I was "getting" out of the relationship. I gave intimacy because I wanted to.

Counselling? That's where I first heard the notion that I should be assessing if my needs are met and doing something about it. 

From my own personal experience, the first time I ever said anything to my H about wanting more sex than I was getting is when his ego died. And so did the relationship, really. 

Yeah, counselling helped immensely with "getting all my needs met". He helps around the house. He is better with money. He does those things because some counsellor told him he should. Except now he is so resentful and hurt that we don't have sex. Ever. And we have no plans to in the future. 

do I care? Not really. Once you go down that path, it just seems so fake and artificial. Transactional. Excuses. Maybe over time it gets more natural. But it puts a price on your relationship. And makes it more like a job. Do this or you are fired (divorce). where does it ever say that there is a limit? When is good enough really good enough? When you start judging your spouse based on how often you have sex in a week, it's over. IMO.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> I get more excuses than I can write down, and I'm sick of it. I'm being punished and deprived of sex because of his stupid porn, or lack thereof. I rue the day that I made a big deal out of the porn; at least I was getting some then, even if it isn't even me he wanted.


I have read that when men withhold sex or cannot perform sexually (as long as it's not a physical problem) it's because they are angry. It's the way they express anger. It's really not all that different than when women withhold sex. Generally, for both genders, it's because they feel there are problems in the marriage, they internalize those problems but will not talk or deal with them.

I also think that people do not realize that in a good number of marriages it's the man who is withholding sex. Nor do I hear a lot of support for women who are stuck in sexless marriages. Like it does not matter if it's the woman who is the victim of what is being called 'bait and switch' here.

I too am sick and tired of a sexless marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

deejov said:


> Before I came to this site... I used to think that I had a good mindset about marriage. I never questioned what I was "getting" out of the relationship. I gave intimacy because I wanted to.
> 
> Counselling? That's where I first heard the notion that I should be assessing if my needs are met and doing something about it.
> 
> ...


Why were you in counseling? Presumably because there was already a problem and you were there to deal with it. If this is the case, problems predated the counseling.

The transactional view of it all is a sad way of looking at things. Instead I few the needs and love buster discussions as a way to identify and talk to each other about our feelings, what we need and how to meet them.

I certainly never think of it as transactional if my husband tells me that he really wants me to do x more. I want to know what he wants and will do it if at all possible.

If your husband is resentful for doing things like the helping around the house and handling the finances then he has a huge problem. Why would this make him resentful?


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

deejov said:


> Before I came to this site... I used to think that I had a good mindset about marriage. I never questioned what I was "getting" out of the relationship. I gave intimacy because I wanted to.
> 
> Counselling? That's where I first heard the notion that I should be assessing if my needs are met and doing something about it.
> 
> ...


Never before would I talk to a partner about my needs. I would know if they were or were not being met, and form my decision; usually resulting in my ending said relationship.

Then I met the man would would become my husband, and, determined to 'get things right this time', I began researching human relationships. I learned how to communicate my needs, and I almost wished I hadn't.

It seems to me that things were better off when I would just coast along and go wherever the winds took me. Now, I over analyze everyting, spend hours a day on TAM looking for other people to identify with who have the same types if issues. I fill my head with all kinds of fear and worries that might have happened in the past, might be happening now, or might happen in the future.

Last night, during an argument I began to realize that our relatinship is dead...he doesn't want me anymore. I don't think he ever really did, looking back on all our issues. But I was so busy pushing and pulling to make this work, that I never realized it and now I feel like I've painted myself into a corner.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I have read that when men withhold sex or cannot perform sexually (as long as it's not a physical problem) it's because they are angry. It's the way they express anger. It's really not all that different than when women withhold sex. Generally, for both genders, it's because they feel there are problems in the marriage, they internalize those problems but will not talk or deal with them.
> 
> I also think that people do not realize that in a good number of marriages it's the man who is withholding sex. Nor do I hear a lot of support for women who are stuck in sexless marriages. Like it does not matter if it's the woman who is the victim of what is being called 'bait and switch' here.
> 
> I too am sick and tired of a sexless marriage.



Well, if you identify that there was something that made him angry to withhold sex, then maybe you eeither need to fix what made him angry, if you were the cause, or move on. Look at it like this, you ever notice a woman is quicker to forgive her man than her friend if they are wronged, but a man will quicker forgive his friend than his woman if he is wronged. Men and women's value on relationships are different, not saying one is more right than the other, just different. When a man invests his vulnerabilities in a relationship and it is compromised, it's pretty much over, where a woman will try and work it out and move past it. As odd as it may sound, men are just as, and in some cases, more fragile than women, emotionally. think about it, your whole life you are taught to not be soft, be a provider, be all these macho things, but never taught how to deal with emotions, then you place all that emotional trust in a woman who then does or says something to question the very thing you were raised to believe in yourself for, your masculinity, of course you won't know how to handle it emotionally and you check out. Speaking from experience, the things my wife has said to me in the past has left me in a world of resentment. This marriage has definitely taught me a lot aout myself, and I know if I were to get married again, that woman would be one lucky lady, if she doesn't mess it up. Having learned tolerance, and learned about how I am emotionally, it will benefit the next one. Current wife however, the root of all my emotional stress of the past, may never have that luxury.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I see a lot of "selfish love" goin' on here.

Anger
Resentment
Grudges

Yuck.

People need to get past all that and find a way to be balanced. It's not easy but it can be done.

Love and be loved in return. Not a selfish love, but a real Love.

I know I speak a lot of jargon that many people may get defensive about but nothing will ever get better when you keep score in love.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Never before would I talk to a partner about my needs. I would know if they were or were not being met, and form my decision; usually resulting in my ending said relationship.
> 
> Then I met the man would would become my husband, and, determined to 'get things right this time', I began researching human relationships. I learned how to communicate my needs, and I almost wished I hadn't.
> 
> ...


Perhaps the knowledge and understanding you have gotten about your needs just sped up the process. You mention being happier while ignorant. You may have been short term, but I suspect you would have gotten to this unhappy place eventually. I not sure that speeding that process up is good or bad.


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## mikeydread1982 (Oct 7, 2011)

that_girl said:


> I see a lot of "selfish love" goin' on here.
> 
> Anger
> Resentment
> ...


I always hear that, just get past it...you just wake up one day and say, you know what, i'm past all the BS you put me through. I guess it's easier for some to do than others. I grew up in a house seeing my parents respect each other and not saying nasty things to undermine them, so when that came into my relationship, I had no clue what was going on. She, on the other hand, grew up seeing that form of communication between her parents. So now, 10 years in the relationship, 6 in marriage, and having dealt with that behavior for more than half of it, i'm worn out emotionally, and she wonders why I look spaced out when i'm around her, but a ball of fun when out with friends. Really? Like you need a clue. So that_girl, how does one just wake up to this enlightened day and forgives all with no memory of what was done?


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

And how can some areas in a relationship be balanced, and others, such as the sex life, send things spiraling out of control?

My H and I are loving and kind to each other most of the time. It's just nights like last night...fights...anger and resentment bubble up, for sure!


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Zhopa said:


> Sorry, CallaLily, I can't buy that.
> [/I][/B].


Thats fine if you don't buy that. I'm not asking you too. It was my opinion, and doesn't mean its right or wrong.


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