# Masking pain with SEX and false R? (Hysterical Bonding)



## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

I read this from the newbie post and it’s really helped to explain the situation I'm in right now.

_*"Hysterical Bonding – Upon being confronted with the undeniable reality that their most trusted spouse has betrayed them with another, some BS's experience an overwhelming sexual desire for their wayward spouse. Many couples claim to have had the best, most intense and loving sex of their relationship during the period following the discovery of an affair, (generally a few weeks to several months), often trying new things and experimenting in ways they had never considered before. This phenomenon is termed "Hysterical Bonding. 

There is very little information on this phenomenon, but it appears to be a primal, instinctual way for the partners to reconnect and reclaim each other. While it may feel counter-intuitive to the BS; as if they are "rewarding" the WS for the affair, hysterical bonding can be a stepping stone to reconciliation. The intimacy encourages communication and a closeness that may otherwise take some time to re-build. 

The occurrence or absence of hysterical bonding does not appear to be an indicator of successful reconciliation. Many other factors, such as the WS's remorse and openness are far more reliable indicators. Hysterical bonding is, however, normal, and nothing for the BS to be alarmed about or ashamed about experiencing. In fact, it has been said it is the one positive in an otherwise long and miserable experience, so enjoy it while it lasts!”*_




As most of you know, my WW had a 2 month long EA/PA that came to an end a month ago. Now we're back together working on things and having sex like crazy (almost every day), but I’m still in excruciating emotional pain.

It seems like hysterical bonding is exactly what I’m experiencing and although I’m not complaining about the amazing sex, I feel like it’s enabling her to rug sweep. It does help with the emotional pain I’m dealing with (although temporarily), but it’s like trying to attach a served limb using a bandaid. Basically a week after the OM left her I let her move back in and we’ve been having sex ever since…what kind of message does that send her? I feel like she hasn’t really felt any of the consequences of her affair nor had the time she needs to figure things out and actually learn from this (which is most important to me). I don’t want to fall into false R. On her side of things, she has expressed remorse, she feels ashamed, naive, like a horrible person, she wants to do whatever it takes to fix things. But outside of her words, I haven’t seen much action and I think it’s partly b/c the sex and her thinking things are back to normal. I’ve read that WS’s will always want to rug sweep and are in a hurry to get things to back to how they were and that’s exactly how she’s acting.

Also, this is from a conversation we had the other night …she says she feels like there’s nothing she can do to fix things or that at least she doesn’t know how to fix them. That what she did was too horrible. She’s told me that she can’t promise me she’d never do this again because she never thought it was possible for her to do this in the first place. I’ve told her that I still love her and I want to be with her. I told her I’ve given you this chance to show me you’re worth it and I feel like you’re not doing much with it. I also told her how I can understand that our non stop sex has probably confused her into thinking things were alright, but that they weren’t. Every day I’m still dealing with extreme pain. She said she’s still committed to doing whatever it takes and that she’ll try harder. 

A few questions for you guys…

1. What do you think of this hysterical bonding, is that what I’m experiencing? Has anyone else experienced it? I feel like something’s wrong with me, like I shouldn’t want to touch her at all (or at least not this much). 

2. “She can’t promise me she’d never do this again because she never thought it was possible for her to do this in the first place”. What do you think of that statement? She says this b/c 4 years ago she had a EA/phone sex with another man while we were legally separated. After that ended, she felt disgusted in herself (same as she does now), she promised me she would never let anything like that happen again, and she thought she had learned from that mistake. Turns out she didn’t. So I can understand in a way how she feels, her whole idea of who she thought she was as a person has been shaken. She feels like she doesn’t know herself and that something’s wrong with her. But how can I dedicate my life to a person like this? I shouldn’t have to always worry about her succumbing to weakness again. 

3. The “how and why”, am I obsessing over it? Is there really even an explanation? I feel like to truly learn from this she has to understand how she let it get to this point. How does she go from a loving wife of high moral value, turning every guy that hits on her away…to a women that carries on a secret affair with a married at the expense of her husband and family (and his), and keeps doing so even after she’s been caught? I’ve asked her how/why she let this happen and I haven’t got much of an answer.

4. Any advice on achieving real R? How do you know if it’s false R? Anything I should be doing or requesting her to do? At this point I know we both love each other, but I feel like perhaps we’re “star-crossed” lovers, we have so much baggage/resentment in our relationship. I’m not sure how we can move on from this and the last thing I want to do is rug sweep and experience this again a few years down the road. As of now we have yet to go to MC (we plan on it), she’s going to IC, there’s been NC with OM, she’s still working at the bar (she knows she needs to find something else), I have all of her passwords, gps on her phone, and I truly believe she wants to learn from this and make our marriage work…she just doesn’t know how. She’s told me these past few weeks together have been some of the best she can remember.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

The so called HB--is probably you re-claiming your territory/marking what is yours
Also you are trying to prove to yourself, and her, you are better than her lover

It will all end soon enuff----
She is using it to get your mind off the terrible thing she has done to you, the mge., and the family------to take the blame away from herself

What has she actually by actions done, to further your mge., and prove to you she is worthy of being back in the marital family

What consequences/boundaries--have you placed on her----where is the accountability

What do you really feel when you touch/look at/talk to her-----
where is this really going-----where do you intend to take it---this is spose to be your ball game played by your rules---right now, she by using sex, is probably contolling what is going on, and you are allowing it, to happen

Do you enjoy knowing she is back with you---ONLY cuz her lover dumped her---so she had no where else to go---and obviously she knew, all she had to do, was get close to you, and you would cave----so once again----where are you taking this---knowing she repeatedly cheats on you, yet if she offers sex, you slide it all under the rug!!!!!


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

There was lots of HB after Dday for me. I didn't take it as "forgiveness" but it was in stark contrast to the daily triggers my husband had. I couldn't believe how he could have sex with me and I wondered what he thought every time he looked at me. HB coupled with the effects of the A on my husband didn't make sense to me at all and I remember questioning his motives for wanting all this sex to begin with. I simply didn't see the logic behind it. Kind of like you get caught stealing something from a store and instead of getting punished you get daily rewards. Makes no sense, right?
I guess I was expecting some kind of punishment, not love making.


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## dymo (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm sorry, but if having amazing sex with your wife is considered a form of rug-sweeping, maybe we're taking the definition of rug-sweeping a little too far.


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## HerToo (Oct 3, 2011)

My wife has become more sexual since my affair. I enjoy it during, but afterwards I feel like we used each other.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Have you been to IC and MC? As I recall, you admitted in your original thread to a couple of ONS prior to your wife's EA/PA. You both swept that under the rug, so it is not surprising that you would do so again. I think there is a whole lot of work that both of you need to do, both individually and together, to figure this out.


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

jnj express said:


> The so called HB--is probably you re-claiming your territory/marking what is yours
> Also you are trying to prove to yourself, and her, you are better than her lover
> 
> It will all end soon enuff----
> ...


I agree with you on “re-claiming” my territory, it’s almost as if it’s some animalistic instinct. Although, I wouldn’t say she’s using it...in fact she doesn’t understand why I even want to even touch her (it’s mostly me initiating everything). She cries and talks about how painful it is now, knowing how I look at her and feel about her (she think’s I’m disgusted in her and hate her).

Her lack of action is the main problem. She says she wants to do whatever it takes to make things work, but at the same time she can’t even promise me (or herself) she’d never do this again. That what she did is too horrible and there’s no way she can fix it. I think she’s still lost and doesn’t know how to amend her horrible betrayal. More IC will hopefully help her with this. 

What consequences/boundaries? This is where I’m a bit lost myself, what consequences/boundaries should I be placing on her? I think she needs more accountability to learn from this. She knows that if she even talks to the OM again I’m completely done with her, she’s agreed to my terms of R (even the post-nup giving up her custodial rights as a parent if she cheats again…or me), I have all passwords to her account, she knows I have gps on her phone now and she’s fine with it, she tries her best to be loving and affectionate to me. But what upsets me is she never wants to talk about the affair or the problems that got us to that point. We def need MC. 

My emotions are constantly up and down, one minute I look at her with love and I’m just happy I have her back…the next looking at her immediately enrages me. Same goes for touching/intimacy, it’s heavenly at times…the next all I can think about is her being with OM (is this what she did to him type stuff). She knows right now I have all the power in this relationship.

Of course I don’t like feeling like the 2nd option to the OM, outside of the affair it’s self that’s been the hardest thing for me to get over. Knowing that if I had never exposed him to his wife, she’d still be with him. I make myself feel better by knowing that she wasn’t herself, caught up in the fog…that she didn’t pick him over me, she picked the excitement and thrill she got. She never loved him, but her emotions were growing…perhaps would have turned into love. I do feel like I made things way to easy on her and I should have let her sweat a while before letting her move back in. I guess my pass indiscretions made it feel hypocritical for me to punish her in that way (even though I feel like that’s the only way she could have really learned from this, is to feel the real consequences of her actions.


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

@fourtyplus
That’s exactly how my wife feels. She doesn’t understand why I’m so sexual with her, especially after talking about the affair and the pain I’m going through. I feel like in her mind she believes I think she’s a *****, so I’m treating her as such.

@dymo
Like I said I’m not complaining about the sex, I just think its confusing her and keeping her from facing the problems that got us into this mess. She still doesn’t even understand how/why she let this happen when we were relatively happy in our marriage. She consciously crossed that infidelity line and had zero remorse for doing so at the time. The only thing that somewhat explains it to me is her working environment, she was a different person before working at her bar. She saw a different exciting life style and she had plenty of men at the bar trying to give it to her, she finally caved after the right/persistent guy came along.

@Tall Average Guy
No I haven’t been to IC, but I’m looking into it. I’ve also been reading up on lexapro, I think perhaps it could help me get through this. I’m so tired of dealing with this constant up and down rollercoaster of emotions, every day is still so painful to me and it seems like the more time that goes by, the more my BS fog clears and the more I feel like what she did is unforgivable. But at the same time I love her more than anything. She constantly asks me how or why I would want to be with a person like her. My ons weren’t really swept under the rug, I think she just realizes the difference. We weren’t married and I was in college…and the other time was when we were separated and she was having her EA/phone sex with another man. I agree, lots of work is going to need to be done. She feels like its impossible for us to get pass this and for me to forgive her…and I might agree with her


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## DesperateHeart (Dec 20, 2011)

I say enjoy the hysterical bonding! I just wish mine lasted longer! Fizzled out after what I thought was EA turned out to be PA....can't even sort out my feelings about sex!

As long as you aren't rug sweeping, which looks like you have no intention of doing so, just enjoy the parts you can. But yeah, you need to come down harder on her about doing her share of heavy lifting.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey Sean---your pre--nup, is now actually a POST--NUP, and it must contain a duress clause.

As to boundaries---you need to include, basically NO MORE MEN AT ALL, WHATSOEVER, unless they are complete friends, of your mge., and they have wives, and are basically long time friends of yours---any other man, is taboo/off limits---she doesn't even look cross-eyed at them

No GNO, for the time bieng---ALL OF HER TIME IS TO BE SPENT WITH THE FAMILY

As to heavy lifting, she MUST make an attempt to help you when you are in pain, from visions, triggers, due to her disrespect, and lack of caring by having her A.

She is to be completely transparent, in all possible ways---and she needs to be banned, from any social websites.

There must be actionable consequences, that are there for her to understand, and know the result, should she violate ANYTHING!!!!!!


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

@jnj express

The problem is, before all this happened that's exactly how she was. I honestly thought she was the perfect wife and I had NOTHING to worry about. She had zero contact with men (outside of her bar customers ), she's not into the internet or social websites...all she does is shop, she really has no girl friends and she hardly ever went out with anyone besides me (in fact I told her she needs to find some friends and do things), and she's about as transparent as she can be. So if that's where we were before and the affair still happened, I'm not sure how any of that would prevent another one. I think the key to all this is the toxic environment of working at her bar...and her weakness as a person. Both of these things need to change (her finding a new job and IC/MC)


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

I think this phenomenon can be attributed to massive and sudden changes in brain chemistry, the over production of certain (protective, ie; fight/flight) hormones and neurotransmitters (reaction to extreme emotional pain/duress) which results in a inability for the brain to produce other neurotransmitters. Oxytocin to be specific. (commonly referred to as the "bonding drug"). The chemical imbalance and withdrawal makes the melon go haywire producing dopamine to motivate a person to seek a known source of oxytocin. All fairly complicated brain chemistry mumbo jumbo, im just spouting this off the top of my head from memory... Could give you better details later, but i believe it is in essense "drug withdrawal" of sorts which motivates this hysterical bonding...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I Know (Dec 14, 2011)

Seangar said:


> @jnj express
> 
> The problem is, before all this happened that's exactly how she was. I honestly thought she was the perfect wife and I had NOTHING to worry about. She had zero contact with men (outside of her bar customers ), she's not into the internet or social websites...all she does is shop, she really has no girl friends and she hardly ever went out with anyone besides me (in fact I told her she needs to find some friends and do things), and she's about as transparent as she can be. So if that's where we were before and the affair still happened, I'm not sure how any of that would prevent another one. I think the key to all this is the toxic environment of working at her bar...and her weakness as a person. Both of these things need to change (her finding a new job and IC/MC)


SHE WORKS IN A BAR? And she can't promise she won't cheat again because she doesn't know how it happened in the first place. Dude. You need a roadmap

You need to read the thread on this site by "almost recovered" about his wife's cheating. Don't remember where it is right now. But he successfully confronted his wife's affair. He DEMANDED accountability from his wife. You need to as well.


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## RelationshipCoach (Nov 7, 2011)

Hello,

Yes, hysterical bonding is very real and it is what you are experiencing right now. You can expect that after this stage that you will come off of the stage with some sort of a let down so your reconciliation has not happened yet. You're actually in the beginning stages of it. 

So as much as your wife wants to sweep what happened under the rug, it's not going to happen that easily. It also helps to know that her recovery won't come until later. It may not seem fair to you now but it all will make sense later on when she will have the aha moment of what she really did. She hasn't gotten to that point yet because she is the state of emergency where all she wants to do is repair repair repair. 

You'll feel as though you need punish her for a while...these are your emotions from the affair. It's all of the pain you feel and it's all of the pain that you need process before you're able to do anything else in this marriage. 

Right now, it's important that you focus more on yourself than you focus on her. You need to heal yourself and your pain from what she has done. 

As far as what she has said about how she can't promise she won't do it again - I actually can see what she is talking about. My husband says that she will never cheat again however, I do not take that because he once said he would never cheat. He never thought he would before and now that he has - who's to say that he wouldn't again. So your wife brings up a good point - how can any one of us ever say that we wouldn't never do anything? We would never think we would cheat on our spouse but so many people do it for many different reasons. I would take that as her being completely honest with you... I know it doesn't feel very comforting right now but I think with time you will start to realize what she truly means by it. At this point, she doesn't really trust herself because she probably can believe how much agony she has caused. This is probably an issue that she really needs to start dealing with as well but right now as I said before - she is in damage control mode...she wants to make sure she doesn't mess anything else up to make you leave... 

Keep on moving...you are doing exactly what you should be doing.
Relationship Repair Coach


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

I Know said:


> SHE WORKS IN A BAR? And she can't promise she won't cheat again because she doesn't know how it happened in the first place. Dude. You need a roadmap
> 
> You need to read the thread on this site by "almost recovered" about his wife's cheating. Don't remember where it is right now. But he successfully confronted his wife's affair. He DEMANDED accountability from his wife. You need to as well.


Yep She wants to leave her job, but right now she's our main source of income. She's going to start lookin for another job she's promised me asap. I also have the option of moving out of state and making good $$$ doing oil pipeline work, but there's no way I'm willing to leave her alone this soon after the A. Anyhow, right now I feel like she is totally committed to making things work and after the fog lifted she's realized what a slimball pos the OM is (and herself). Last thing she wants is to have anything to do with him...but who knows if he were to wander into the bar and try sweet talking her. I am still in contact with his wife and she has him on lock down and has gps on his phone, so i'm sure I'd find out regardless. She's on her way home from work right now and sent me a few texts, "mwuah I missed u today", followed by..."hope your down for some f!ucking when I get home".

I've told her she NEEDS to figure out how she let this happened, if not for me...than for herself and our kids. They deserve a strong mother with good morals, that's not just going to fall into an A and not even know why or how it happened. 

I haven't had any luck finding the post you suggested. Anyone know what he's talking about?


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

RelationshipCoach said:


> As far as what she has said about how she can't promise she won't do it again - I actually can see what she is talking about. My husband says that she will never cheat again however, I do not take that because he once said he would never cheat. He never thought he would before and now that he has - who's to say that he wouldn't again. So your wife brings up a good point - how can any one of us ever say that we wouldn't never do anything? We would never think we would cheat on our spouse but so many people do it for many different reasons. I would take that as her being completely honest with you... I know it doesn't feel very comforting right now but I think with time you will start to realize what she truly means by it. At this point, she doesn't really trust herself because she probably can believe how much agony she has caused. This is probably an issue that she really needs to start dealing with as well but right now as I said before - she is in damage control mode...she wants to make sure she doesn't mess anything else up to make you leave...
> 
> Keep on moving...you are doing exactly what you should be doing.
> Relationship Repair Coach


Thanks for the reply coach.
And I feel the same way, she's being completely honest with me and I appreciate that. Sure it would be nice to have her crying and pleading with me, telling me that she would never do that again...but I think I've lived in a fantasy world long enough. We're all flawed human beings and in the right circumstances I think we're all capable of doing horrible things (look at the milgram experiment, the nazis, look at all the people who would have never thought they'd cheat...that hates cheaters... but for some reason they eventually do it themselves). It's how we learn from those mistakes that really matters, at least that's what I'm telling myself to "heal". 

Like a lot of you said, boundaries must be set and I think that's key. Before this, I thought my wife was incapable of cheating...that our marriage was invulnerable. I believe that was my biggest mistake. Any marriage regardless of how healthy/strong is at risk of infidelity. Now that I realize this, I'd like to take the steps necessary to not allow this to happen again. Problem is, I have yet to figure out what those steps include.


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## I Know (Dec 14, 2011)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/30807-2-years-ago-today.html


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

Even if can't promise she won't cheat, hopefully she will THINK before reacting in the future.


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

Well some bad news, no HB tonight. 

She got arrested for drunk driving 
She went out to dinner with her dad after work (talked to him and confirmed this). She had a few drinks. Now she's in jail and my truck has been impounded (I've been letting her use it for work, she wrecked her car a few weeks ago).

She's hit two separate deer had to get two separate repair jobs, she was hit by someone and wrecked her car, dodged one DUI a few weeks ago, and now she's been arrested for another DUI...all within the past few months, during/after the affair. Bad luck...or maybe karma?


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## RelationshipCoach (Nov 7, 2011)

Well, I can tell you that after my husband's affair came to light...it's like the sky opened up on him and every bad thing that could have happened happened. So yes, I believe in karma.

To answer your question about the steps to preventing infidelity, I know that many expert believe that you can affair proof your marriage. However, I believe that every person cheats for a reason that is aside from the marriage and that is why I don't believe the marriage is the cause of the affair. It's the cheater who needs to learn appropriate coping strategies...cheating is not an appropriate coping strategy. 

Don't hold yourself accountable for the affair or preventing it from happening again. Hold your wife's commitment to the marriage accountable for that. If she is unable to do that, then you'll have a decision to make based on her actions.
Relationship Repair


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

Umm, My hunch is that alcohol consumption played a significant role in her lowering her shields to the OM's advances. Now she has a DUI to add to the mix. 

It might be time for her to quit drinking and working in a bar. You can point that out to her, but she has to want to change for it to happen.


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

Yea, she'll be getting out at 2:30am...so I'm guessing she was just at the limit. I'm sure this will be another wake up call for her. I'm pretty pissed off right now but at the same time I feel sorry for her. 

As for the bar, she doesn't/or isn't allowed to drink there...so she was completely sober when she first met him and decided to cross that line. The environment definitely didn't help though, seeing single people out every night having a great time...getting hit on by guys every night promising you the world.


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

No Bail? That's Good!

Impound bill for truck..thats BAD

Fines, Lawyer fees, license hassles, drinker diver education classes...EXPENSIVE.

I hope this is her first one. And last one too.

Is her Dad bringing her Home?

Good Luck Sean!


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

Yep, this honestly has to be the worst low/moment in both hers and my life...and it just keeps piling up. 

She got arrested right by our house, I called a taxi to pick her up and bring her home.


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

It could be worse...truck isn't smashed, no one injured, no one killed.

Don't get too pissed off at her, but tell her whats on your mind after giving her a hug and saying something like, "Thank God you're home"


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Please get her some help for the drinking problem. I recently had a family member killed and one severely injured by a drunk drive. The 2 family members were out for a Sunday afternoon drive when they were hit head-on by the drunk driver.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

jail sex sounds fun



(sorry, sometimes my bipolar inappropriate jokes come out of me)


The drinking has to stop, hopefully this is a wake up call- especially considering your drinking problem, if she's drunk around you it could be a slippery slope for you to start drinking again. Hopefully, it is more of a self medication problem than alcoholism.


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## dymo (Jan 2, 2012)

Obviously you cannot control whether or not she cheats. You can set a clear boundaries, but I understand you believe you're already doing so.

At the other end, maybe together you could address any problems that led to the affair in the first place. Understand that I don't believe anything justifies an affair. However, if the issues that led her to cheat are gone, it may give you more peace of mind.

Could her drinking have been a contributing factor to her affair? That would lower inhibitions, and make it so much easier to make a poor decision. If you have a drinking problem too, that makes it even worse. Maybe you can help each other to stop.

I haven't fully read your threads, but it looks like you believe the fact she works in a bar was a problem too. Is she still there? Also, is she still the only one supporting the family financially? Do you have a job too now?


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

Seangar said:


> Well some bad news, no HB tonight.
> 
> She got arrested for drunk driving
> She went out to dinner with her dad after work (talked to him and confirmed this). She had a few drinks. Now she's in jail and my truck has been impounded (I've been letting her use it for work, she wrecked her car a few weeks ago).
> ...


Huh?? bad luck? NO, bad choices, she needs to learn her lesson with drinking and driving, I guess still hasn't.


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

I know HB exists. When H. and I got back together, he iniated sex on day 1. In the beginning I did not ask at all, I truly couldn't believe he wanted to touch me after what I had done. Thankfully, I had already read about this term, because his reaction confused me so much. He was angry with me, and yet still wanted to engage in such an intimate act. He told me it was indeed reclaiming what is his.

HB after 9 months has died done, and so he doesn't initiate it as much, he hates to be rejected, as sometimes the timing is not right. I can't help think she is trying to make it all go away with sex, the way she approaches it with such comments as "hope you up to some f*cking", a bit much really. 

The other thing that bothered me was her comment in regard to not knowing if she will ever do it again. I personally couldn't live with that, ever. I know the destruction that this has caused on my own relationship, and family as well, and could never go down that road again. My husband actually believes me when I say this, he knows how effed up I was, and the things that contributed to the affair. We're slowly eliminating those issues with both of us, a slow process, but it has to be done. It's a lot of work, but it will make the marriage stronger so that people cannot weasle their way in again.

Knowing what we've both been through, how could I ever do this to us again? who wants to actually go through that again...seriously. In my opinion, she hasn't suffered enough consequences, and you're probably not implemented the 180 strong enough.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

It's just make up sex. That's all....


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

HB is real, it happens, it can be great... but from my experience, beware two things:

1 - it dies down, eventually, and the reality facing you to move forward is now further complicated with "...but what about all that great sex?"... it's kind of masked the underlying issues...

2 - at least for me, in the depths of my own mind, I constantly question (and resent) "Where has this been for the past xx years??"... and was it the OM that brought it out of her, and not me? That very private but very real hurt is a tough one for a male ego. And if it gets into your mind that way, then how you deal with it with her becomes a big deal on the journey toward R. 

I also get resentful that it took "this" to bring out that side of her.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Seangar said:


> @Tall Average Guy
> No I haven’t been to IC, but I’m looking into it. I’ve also been reading up on lexapro, I think perhaps it could help me get through this. I’m so tired of dealing with this constant up and down rollercoaster of emotions, every day is still so painful to me and it seems like the more time that goes by, the more my BS fog clears and the more I feel like what she did is unforgivable. But at the same time I love her more than anything. She constantly asks me how or why I would want to be with a person like her. My ons weren’t really swept under the rug, I think she just realizes the difference. We weren’t married and I was in college…and the other time was when we were separated and she was having her EA/phone sex with another man. I agree, lots of work is going to need to be done. She feels like its impossible for us to get pass this and for me to forgive her…and I might agree with her


Just because they were different does not mean that they were properly dealt with. Your characterization actual tells me that they were swept under the rug. This does not excuse or justify her behavior or mean that you should not be hurt by her affair. Rather, that both of you need to do real work to avoid these behaviors and get into good relationship habits. I think IC and MC for both of you would be a good idea. 

IIRC, you are attending school. Look to see if the student services has some counseling that might be available to one or both of you.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

Sean,

You are concerned that the hysterical bonding is causing a false R, or a rug sweep. 

I want you to think of those things your W needs to do to R. Seriously. Make it a checklist. Share it with her. 

She is being frankly honest about not being able to promise that she would never cheat again (and none of us really can, unless we are DEAD). This is what marriage is all about. working through life with each other when our normal biological urges would have us do something different. We will always not only be attracted to our spouses. It is what we do with that attraction that gives us our integrity, and our marriages.

If she is doing the best she can to be in the marriage and meets those written requirements (and she won't be 100% compliant every day as she is human) generally, then you are indeed not rug sweeping, but truly reconciling. 

Recognizing that you didn't cheat this time around, its understandable to have all these feelings about her, the cheating, and the reconciliation. this will take time - 2 to 5 years it is said on here. 

Make sure the R is not false on your side. How do you do that? Following up with your own counseling, medications. 

Hysterical bonding is wonderful. Make sure to work out with her the emotional re-bonding that needs to be put back into place to match up with the physical side. This maybe what you lack.

We are rooting for you and your marriage!

Dadof3


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

Hope today is a better day for the two of you.

Did you get your truck back?


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## LuvMyH (Nov 11, 2009)

The things I've discovered about hysterical bonding are that when the conditions are right, it can go on a very long time and it's only rug sweeping if you're not discussing all of the other issues in between the sex or if the WS isn't showing clear signs of remorse. If the conditions are right, I feel like it's a legitimate bonding experience. 

That doesn't mean you won't feel pain or experience triggers, but if the WS is honestly back in the marriage,hysterical bonding isn't a bad thing- it can last years. But if things are still shaky or you still suspect infidelity, it can be a mask for pain or be a desperate effort to deny the fact that the marriage is dead.

If the BS thinks they are experiencing HB, but the WS is refusing to be transparent or give up an inappropriate friendship, then I woud agree it is a mask.

If the WS is going above and beyond what would be expected of them, I would consider the HB to be a tool or even a blessing in restoring love and trust.

This is coming from a woman whose marriage hit rock bottom, saw d-day almost 3 hrs ago and has been experiencing HB off and on ever since. The key ingredient is a repentant WS. There are others here whom have posted about this and the common denominator has been a remorseful spouse who is doing the work to help repair the marriage. In my opinion, Any resistance at all to doing the heavy lifting should result in a complete 180.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvMyH (Nov 11, 2009)

3 years, not 3 hrs-lol!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

How do you guys get over the mental images of your wife having sex with another man?


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

@almostrecovered
Haha I don’t have a drinking problem? I wouldn’t say she does either, although lately she has been drinking more due to what’s going on right now. When she got pulled over she was just at the limit, .08. They put her in jail for like 3 hours and let her go. It’s just a money rachet

@dymo
I agree with you. When things are good between us and our marriage is happy, I don’t think she’d ever be tempted to cheat. The problem is, when our marriage hits a low point…where we need each other more than ever…she abandons ship and makes awful choices. Yes she is working at a bar and supporting us. I am looking for a job still around our area but it’s hard, only thing I’ve found is minimum wage. I have a job offer out of state making good money, when things settle down here at home I’ll probably do that.

@workingtogether
I’m not sure implementing the 180 during R is a good idea? But I do agree, she hasn’t suffered enough consequences. She honestly hates herself right now, she doesn’t think she deserves me, and never wants to cause me pain again. I think she thinks in a way that maybe it’s best that I’m not with such a f!ucked up person like her? From her point of view, she said that b/c after her EA/phone sex she was disgusted in herself and promised she’d never do anything like that again, yet she did…but even worse this time around. She thought she learned her lesson and grew as a person, but she didn’t. She’s afraid of making that promise to me again.

@2xloser
My wife and I honestly had a great sex life before her affair, so I don’t believe that was a reason for her to cheat. She even told the OM that sex wasn’t the problem in our relationship. I think the HB is so great at the moment b/c it feels new. Like someone said on here, it’s like almost dying and than having a second chance to live. We almost lost each other, now we have one another back…and I guess we’re both just enjoying it.

@Dadof3
I’ve told her we both need to make a checklist of what we thing we need to do to get past this and have a healthy marriage. I agree 100% about what you said concerning her not being able to promise me. It really does all come down to personal integrity and character. I know for me personally, the last ONS I had while I was separated with my wife, I felt disgusted in myself. I had this beautiful amazing wife who I loved (I thought things were over at the time), now I was having meaningless sex with some girl I cared nothing for. Being with that other girl just made me appreciate what I had with my wife so much more. That’s why after we got back together; things were the best they ever had been. That’s why her affair is so painful, in my eyes we were happy, I trusted her completely…I could have understood it more if we had a horrible loveless marriage, but we didn’t. I was honestly hoping that if she was ever with another person, it would do the same for her as it did for me. It would allow her to appreciate me even more, instead she was willing to throw me away for a slimball who goes up to the bar every night trying to 
pick up women while his pregnant wife is at home. I guess I’ve never experienced the intense emotions of this type of affair, so I can’t really comment. 

@LuvMyH
I like your way of thinking. Perhaps HB could in fact be used as a tool for R? Pretty much everyday we’re discussing some aspect of the affair or our relationship and I’m sure it’s wearing her down, but she understands. I agree with everyone that the main thing in R is remorse, but how do I know if what she’s feeling is remorse or just regret? She hates herself, she hates what she’s done to me, and she thinks she’s a weak person…these all sound like regrets. What are the signs of a remorseful spouse and what kind of work should they be doing to repair the marriage?

@complexity
Knowing every little detail about my wife’s affair has made it impossible for me to not have a constant stream of mental images. Its hell, but I’m the one that asked and I’d rather know every detail than have to wonder. I think as time goes on, they will lessen…but there will probably always be triggers that bring the pain back.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Sean I think that for most couples, the loss of the husband's job is a major stressor on both spouses than when the wife's job is lost. A wife supporting her husband after he has lost his job, is more likely to be resentful because even in today's 'enlightened' times, it is the man who is still expected to be the major income provider. Simply put, a husband without a job is not attractive to a wife. SAHD have a long ways to go before they even get half of the respect that SAHM receive.


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

morituri said:


> Sean I think that for most couples, the loss of the husband's job is a major stressor on both spouses than when the wife's job is lost. A wife supporting her husband after he has lost his job, is more likely to be resentful because even in today's 'enlightened' times, it is the man who is still expected to be the major income provider. Simply put, a husband without a job is not attractive to a wife. SAHD have a long ways to go before they even get half of the respect that SAHM receive.



I completely agree. I've been in college, while she's worked. She's tired of waiting around for me to finish my degree (9 credit hours away). Basically we've been living off of her income and my student loans the past few years. I believe the affair happened because a number of factors, but her resentment for me not working was no doubt her number one excuse (in her marriage bashing to the OM, this was the main thing she used against me). She thought I was more attractive and intelligent then the OM, but what he had over me was financial success and the excitement of being new. What's ironic is that she only cheated on me after I moved out of state and was making great money? I guess she was already into deep emotionally with OM at that point.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Seangar said:


> What's ironic is that she only cheated on me after I moved out of state and was making great money? I guess she was already into deep emotionally with OM at that point.


Yep it was a combination of bad timing, vulnerability and opportunity.

She has to learn to identify when she is feeling resentment, and share it with you so it doesn't fester and leave her vulnerable to another affair in the future.


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

Even you taking a lowering paying job would help with bills and her perception of you contributing to the household. Not wanting to work out of state for long periods of time is understandable, but you need to do something.


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

Text from her cell...
Will be posting a journal entry she wrote from last night later as well...

Here's a text she got from one of her girl friends she works with at the bar a day after the dui. This girl is mid 20's, a huge flirt, your basic bar wh!ore type girl. Great friend material for my W I'm sure, during the whole affair I have no doubt she was there egging my W on while the OM was coming into her work every other day...

(after asking why she wasn't in work and my W getting the dui and going to jail...)

Friend: Who picked you up? Does Sean know?

Wife:Sean got me a taxi from the jail

Friend: Are you and him talking? Ugh, what bad timing? (this set off alarms, it's been over a month since the end of the affair...she should know we're talking/back together)

Wife: Yeah, we r living together I don't think there is any good timing to get a DUI

Friend:I thought you guys were still living together. Atleast he got you a taxi instead of telling you to beat it. Those f!ucking things suck! I remember mine, it was so dumb!

Friend: I love you!!! Try not to stress too bad. At least you're alive! XOX

Wife: Y did you think me and Sean aren't talking? (after I asked my W why would her friend say that, she sent her this)

Friend: I just figured he would be pissed. Another reason to put you down and hurt your feelings (after giving my wife another chance after a horrible affair, this is her friends opinion of me)

Wife: No he took care of everything and was there for me when he didn't have to be

Friend: That's good! Very respectable! (very respectable? F!uck you skank)


Anyhow, I read the text after..."are you and him talking". Which was odd to me, b/c this girl is my W's main friend at her work...so of course she knows we're back together I thought? My wife said ya she knows we are working on things, I dont know why she would say that. This "friend" was the first one my W ran to and cried on her shoulder after the OM ran back to his wife after having sex with her for the first time. 

I guess my point is that everything seems to be against us, or my W in particular. How can you make the right choices when your surrounded around friends like this 20 year old party girl?

Also, something else that's bothering me. After my wife first began working at the bar I noticed she started taking a lot more time getting ready for work, doing her hair and make up. Than she started wearing padded bras (which her friend from above helped with by giving her one of her own). I've told my wife, the only person she should care to look good for is me. She says that she does it for her self, it makes her feel confident and good about herself. Still even after the affair she gets "sexied" up for work. (She desperately needs to find a new job and cut strings with her friend, which she agreed to do).


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

You need her to get out of that job.....like yesterday. Go find yourself a job, anywhere, even if it's babysitting your neighbours kids. It will save your marriage. 

I'm also wondering why she's still dressing up to go to work, she's playing with fire.

Keep talking about it, don't let anything go.


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

Is it possible your wife dropped communication with the 20 year old coworker once you two started working on R?


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

I’m not sure if putting her private journal entry online is the right thing to do, but I want you guys to see things from her perspective right now. She wrote this after we were watching a movie last night and a scene caused a trigger to me…and I simply just detached, went outside to think by myself. She asked me what was wrong, I told her. The hive break outs are something new to btw.


_“Just got home from working 12 hours, took a shower with Sean and sat to watch a movie. He saw a scene that caused him to break out in hives rehashing my affair. 
When things like this happen to him it makes me feel even worse, that I am causing this pain in him. I feel helpless to sooth him. How is there anything I can say to ease the pain he’s feeling? It makes me feel even more worthless. It makes me feel like the only way for his pain to go away is to let go of me and start moving on. How could I cause him this much pain. Only someone with basically no self-worth could find comfort in the false intention driven words of someone else like I did, letting them have so much power over me and my feelings. How did I become this person that is so insecure and has such little self-value?
In my life I have made some awful choices, I have also been in some awful situations in my childhood, why am I still letting them affect me today. I can and need to find a way to overcome them. I feel like any person in my life who should have ever been there for me and help me grow as a person has betrayed me. What my brother did to me. How could my one and only brother do that to me, he was my big brother, he was supposed to protect me, look out for me, be the one person who would be there even after my parents passed away. But he didn’t and wasn’t. He violated me, betrayed me, used me, threatened me. And my parents, the people who created me. They allowed this to happen in their own house, they left me there with him, they put me in that situation and 15 years later I find the courage to tell them and they brush it off. Confirmed once again by the ones I love that I’m not even worth fighting for, my voice of pain and suffering brushed off again by my flesh and blood. 
So what makes me a person of any value what so ever? The love of my children? Their need for the guidance of their mother in their lives? Is my brothers betrayal part of the reason I have continued to betray Sean? Is this how I have become conditioned to treat my closest relationships? I need to change that, just because he did that to me, I don’t have to still suffer and in turn make others suffer the way I have just because he did that to me doesn’t mean that is the way of life. I can still change who I choose to be. I need to make a conscious choice to stop believing that this is the way life is. I can find a way to change me. What he did to me is wrong and I didn’t deserve it, I was an innocent loving happy trusting little girl and he reached inside me and took it away, this is not how people especially families treat each other. 
So now, how do I reach inside myself to put these rightful things that were mine back? It was not my fault that he did that to me. I know I have the strength some w here inside of me to find myself. It is going to be a journey though, a long one that will not come easily. 

With Sean I can’t bear to cause him anymore pain. I feel like us being together is only making both of our lives and “self-beings” worse, he looks at me and thinks of all the pain I have caused him, lies I have told him, and the betrayal. When we talk about the affair it causes him deep pain and it makes me feel absolutely worthless and as though there is even more evidence and confirmation that I am a completely devalued person. It seems from my eyes that the only way for either one of us to start healing is to let go of each other. I do truly feel right now that I am incapable of giving him the love he deserves because I have never learned to love myself. It really makes sense to me now.

This was a very emotional journal entry for her; it’s obvious that she feels worthless about herself. But at the same time, what I’ve read kind of upsets me. I feel like she’s still being selfish in a way, not one time did she really express remorse or say how sorry she was for anything. Everything’s about how she feels and it seems like she’s using her bad childhood as an excuse for what she’s done (which I’m sure it’s a part of her weaknesses as a person, but it’s not an excuse). And what is her solution to fxing her betrayal and ruining our marriage, to “let go” because it’s too painful? This is what she’s doing with the chance I’ve given her? I understand she thinks the pain she caused me is to sever, but still shouldn’t she still be trying and doing whatever she can?”_



These lines stuck out to me…
“It makes me feel like the only way for his pain to go away is to let go of me and start moving on.” 
“I feel like us being together is only making both of our lives and “self-beings” worse”
“It seems from my eyes that the only way for either one of us to start healing is to let go of each other”


This was a very emotional journal entry for her; it’s obvious that she feels worthless about herself. But at the same time, what I’ve read kind of upsets me. I feel like she’s still being selfish in a way, not one time did she really express remorse or say how sorry she was for anything. Everything’s about how she feels and it seems like she’s using her bad childhood as an excuse for what she’s done (which I’m sure it’s a part of her weaknesses as a person, but it’s not an excuse). And what is her solution to fixing her betrayal and ruining our marriage, to “let go” because it’s too painful? This is what she’s doing with the chance I’ve given her? I understand she thinks the pain she caused me is to sever, but still shouldn’t she still be trying and doing whatever she can? So what do you guys take from her journal entry?


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

I'm suprised your wife didn't say that she dresses up for increased tips. Personally, I tip on service, not looks of the server. I know some people/men tip on looks and flirtation.


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

Was your wife sexually abused by her brother? That's what I got from the journal entry.


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

Yardman said:


> Was your wife sexually abused by her brother? That's what I got from the journal entry.


Yes she was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yardman (Sep 10, 2011)

Has she had IC to deal with that? Iif not it would not hurt and might "fix" much of her feelings of worthlessness


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## Wolfgar (Nov 15, 2011)

Ya after our seperation and her ea/phone sex she did ic for a while. He put her on lexapro, she thought she had dealt with a lot of the issues and quit going. Things were amazing after that, until now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Complexity said:


> How do you guys get over the mental images of your wife having sex with another man?


I could picture her being really bad at it, then nagging at him until he climbs off and never comes back.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Seangar said:


> . After my wife first began working at the bar I noticed she started taking a lot more time getting ready for work, doing her hair and make up. Than she started wearing padded bras (which her friend from above helped with by giving her one of her own). I've told my wife, the only person she should care to look good for is me. She says that she does it for her self, it makes her feel confident and good about herself. Still even after the affair she gets "sexied" up for work. (*She desperately needs to find a new job and cut strings with her friend*, which she agreed to do).


One possibility is that she does this to get more tips or attract more customers though regardless of the job, she shouldn't allow her friends to have this much influence over her actions, she's a grown woman who should decide what is and isn't acceptable after she royally F'd up. She knows what her priorities are. 

I worry though that this sexing up is giving her an ego boost and validation from other men and if that's her attitude, that will follow in whatever job she takes which could lead to trouble in the future. I'd keep watch.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Seangar said:


> I feel like she’s still being selfish in a way, not one time did she really express remorse or say how sorry she was for anything. Everything’s about how she feels and it seems like she’s using her bad childhood as an excuse for what she’s done (which I’m sure it’s a part of her weaknesses as a person, but it’s not an excuse). And what is her solution to fixing her betrayal and ruining our marriage, to “let go” because it’s too painful? This is what she’s doing with the chance I’ve given her? I understand she thinks the pain she caused me is to sever, but still shouldn’t she still be trying and doing whatever she can? So what do you guys take from her journal entry?


I agree with you here. She almost turned her affair into a self pity issue.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I think you are making to much of this. Tomorrow you could get a completly different entry. As a matter of fact, she may be steeling herself up for you to dump her. She may be thinking you are not going to be able to accept her. 

You also need to be reassuring her. I broke up a long term reltionship under similar circumstances because I thought my girlfriend would be better off. You are in this together you have to support each other. If she is doing good tell her. If she is struggling help her, don't throw her under the bus.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

chapparal said:


> I think you are making to much of this. Tomorrow you could get a completly different entry. As a matter of fact, she may be steeling herself up for you to dump her. She may be thinking you are not going to be able to accept her.
> 
> You also need to be reassuring her. I broke up a long term reltionship under similar circumstances because I thought my girlfriend would be better off. You are in this together you have to support each other. If she is doing good tell her. If she is struggling help her, don't throw her under the bus.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Is she getting IC? From some people this would be the way the face and work through their worst case scenario. For others it's how they convince themselves how to end things.

Btw you need to be seen at her work being her husband and owning his territory.

You two need to have meetups etc. like you popping in for coffee when she's on break or at the end of her shift.

As for the way she loos, that quite possibly her trying to bar tramp compete with the younger girls in the looks dept,it could also be pressure from the management.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

her private post screams of "Not willing to take responsibility of her own actions and blaming others for her faults". No wonder she cannot promise you that she will not do it again. Her texts with her co-worker are also highly suspect. Either she portrayed you as an utter useless arsehole before the affair and is afraid to say that she got back together with you or she still is projecting you as a deadbeat.


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## dymo (Jan 2, 2012)

I think we may be reading too much into this. This is her journal, and for a lot of people, that's a place for introspection. It is _meant_ to be mostly about her own thoughts and feelings. That does not mean that she is insensitive to others, but the journal is about her.

And frankly, if she did not express this level of self-loathing, some people here would be crying out that she was still in the fog or unremorseful. 

At this point, it looks like she is feeling hopeless and lost because she does not know how to fix things. I think morituri's book suggestion may be a good idea. I've never read the book, but she badly needs a roadmap. And she needs hope that the two of you can come out the other side.

Edit: Also, you may want to recognize that you are both going to be going through some severe mood swings over whether to stay or go. It is not surprising she would contemplate separation. From one of your previous threads, you expressed the exact same thought.:



> I'm beginning to realize that perhaps she killed the love we once shared for one another and it may be best to just move on without her (as hard as that may be).


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## Thruhellandback (Jan 8, 2012)

He's right. 

I'm the cheating wife and it took me awhile to accept but it was the fastest road back to recovery when he felt he could account for my movements and such. I realised it was best for him and once I looked at it as a solution not just that i'm an unworthy *****, it was much easier to do.

I think I know what she meant by "I can't promise you I won't do it again because I didn't think I could ever do it in the first place." I was faithfully, crazily in love with my husband for 16 years until we moved and a lot of things changed (too long to explain).

When the dust settled and I realised the full extent of the psychological damage I had done to my husband (in my naivete I never thought he would find out and would have taken the secret to my grave), I was devastated, disgusted, suicidal and in shock. I was completely flabbergasted that I could do such a thing and it made me completely doubt myself. Nothing seemed to make sense. Who was this person that I had become? I would never tell him but as much as I never want to hurt him like that ever again...I have moments that make me doubt myself. I never want to see anyone in that kind of pain again knowing full well that I am the sole reason for it.

You must get her out of the bar. It's the worst place for someone that has a tendency to crave attention and get swept away. Men can be merciless, relentless and very manipulative in their pursuit.

In reference to your "hysterical bonding". We went through the same experience as did one of my best friends and her husband. It's normal. I would agree that it is partly primal but also your heart is just so relieved that you didn't completely lose the most important person in your life that if feels life affirming to have sex ALOT. Someone in an earlier entry to you said that you're wife is using sex to distract you from the issue. I know from my experience that that's not the case for me. It's a totally psychological reaction to severe trauma. Apparently those who escape death together like in an accident feel the same hysterical need for bonding.


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## bikerwoman (Aug 19, 2013)

Message for Wolgar
Hi 
Earlier this year I had the same situation as you but it was my husband. I can fill in details later. I put into google about finding out an affair and then saw the threads for hysterical bonding. I followed the conservations you had and the replies from the marriage coaches. I found them very helpful and your hurt was as I am feeling now. I need to know if you are still together, how it is going as I need some help to get through this. Getting more down as the months go by but not wanting our marriage to end. Help me.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Bikerwoman; why don't you start your own thread and benefit from the support of all the posters here?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Yes you are experiencing hysterical bonding, and yes it's normal and you shouldn't feel guilty or weird about it. That being said, your wife, imo, is going to cheat on you again. Her inability to promise it will never happen again, coupled with the fact that she continued the affair after being caught, are gigantic, blowing in the wind red flags.

From my experience I believe you are in false R, and you have the makings of a serial cheater on your hands (if she isn't already).

I'm sorry to be so negative, but I've seen this before, and it's what I believe to be true.

I am so very sorry this has happened to you.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Wolfgar said:


> @fourtyplus
> That’s exactly how my wife feels. She doesn’t understand why I’m so sexual with her, especially after talking about the affair and the pain I’m going through. I feel like in her mind she believes I think she’s a *****, so I’m treating her as such.
> 
> @dymo
> ...


She works in a bar - another MAJOR problem. If she doesn't get out of that industry it's almost an iron clad guarantee she'll do it again. Bars and infidelity go together like flies and ****.

Edit - didn't realize how old this thread was!


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