# PUA is bull****



## alixanderes (Nov 7, 2015)

I've never liked the whole PUA thing. Some people say that it's manipulative but I disagree with that and that's not the reason why I don't like PUA. 

It's no more manipulative than anything else. The mating game is a game, that's why they call it the mating game. It's not like platonic interactions. You have to do things in a certain way. That's understood. PUA is useful only to the extent that it allows you to do things in a certain way to get results, but what I don't like about it is the whole idea that impressing women is the be all and end all. It's not. 

PUAs tend to judge the success of an interaction with a woman based on how much the likelihood of sex is increased. That's not the way to do it. The way to do it is to start off by including something that very few men do. And that is (drum roll...)

You must establish standards. Men don't seem that interested in doing this. You must have standards for what you're looking for in a potential girlfriend, and you must judge and screen if necessary. If all you want is sex then I guess that's unnecessary, just go ahead and have sex with just about anybody. But if you're serious about finding someone who's right for you, you must judge and screen. 

Too many men are only interested in validating their egos by seeing if they can get a woman into bed. No matter how messed up a particular woman's personality might be, they don't care, they just want the notch. It's pathetic and childish. They have no standards. Many men refuse to stand up for themselves and call bad women out on their behavior because they secretly want to validate themselves to most women they meet. 

It's not that there's anything fundamentally wrong with trying out certain things to be more interesting and attractive to women. The problem is when too much emphasis is put on that, and almost none on having standards in the first place. If you have standards, and you screen out unsuitable women, you save a lot of time and it makes the rest easier. No need for magic tricks or weird, elaborate body language.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

I think that's the whole point of PUA philosophy though. Drop your standards and respect and do what you need to do to get a little something something for one evening. 

To me, PUA techniques were for those that didn't have the social graces or charisma to "score" on thier real merits. I got more dates just being "me" in college than having to rely on sales tactics. 

The ladies liked the car they saw on the lot and wanted to take it for a test drive...😛
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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

For clarity, the ladies were test driving the Ford Fiesta instead of the Ferrari. Just a good ol reliable car that gives plenty of mileage and the odd thrill. 

Bam!!! I'm here all week! Twice on Fridays. Try the burgers!
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## alixanderes (Nov 7, 2015)

alphaomega said:


> I think that's the whole point of PUA philosophy though. Drop your standards and respect and do what you need to do to get a little something something for one evening.
> 
> To me, PUA techniques were for those that didn't have the social graces or charisma to "score" on thier real merits. I got more dates just being "me" in college than having to rely on sales tactics.
> 
> ...


I don't think you can totally be yourself 100%. You do have to do certain things to get women to notice you and like you. That's not the part about PUA that I have a problem with. I actually think it does teach some good stuff. But what bothers me is the attitude of it. The attitude of getting laid no matter what, even if the girl is substandard or has something wrong with her. Men need to raise their standards for themselves and for the women that they go for.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

What the heck is PUA?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

SecondTime'Round said:


> *What the heck is PUA?*


Pick up Artist...


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Pick Up Artist

A whole range of techniques some guys think is the Holy Grail of getting laid at the bar. Books are written about this topic...😜
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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> What the heck is PUA?


From Wikipedia (I had to look up as well):



> The seduction community, also known as the pick-up artist or PUA community, is a movement of men whose goal is seduction and sexual success with/access to women. Members of the community often call themselves pickup artists (PUA). The community exists through Internet newsletters and weblogs, marketing (e.g. banner ads, seminars, one-on-one coaching), forums and groups, as well as over a hundred local clubs, known as "lairs".[1]
> 
> The rise of "seduction science", "game", or "studied charisma", as it is often called, has been attributed to the "chaotic" modern dating scene reportedly as a result of the increased empowerment and equality of women in western society and changes to traditional gender roles combined with the influence of distinct biological imperatives in men and women.[2] Commentators in the media have described "game" as sexist or misogynistic,[3] while admitting that the techniques espoused do appear to improve men's success at attracting women.[4] Academic research has also confirmed to some extent that "game" and attraction principles do have a factual basis in social, physiological and evolutionary psychology.[5][6]


Somewhere in there is something about a red or blue pill I think.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

SecondTime'Round said:


> What the heck is PUA?


PUA = Pick Up Artist
I too think it is a very shallow way to live. The idea is that getting laid is the end all be all.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Ynot said:


> PUA = Pick Up Artist
> I too think it is a very shallow way to live. The idea is that getting laid is the end all be all.


Yeah, I have no interest in learning the ins and outs. As a single woman, it's enough for me to just be aware that there are men out there ascribing to this B.S.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

I did read the "book". Psychologically, there's some merit to the techniques. A lot of it I found was based on someone's interpretation of how psychology and the mind works. 

But as any book, there's some fact and some fiction. 

I found the "example stories" in it rather pathetic, though. In the sense that the behaviour was pathetic.
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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

If the goal is to get laid, separate from any specific individual, the techniques are very effective. Most of it is based in simple, well known psychology, and playing the numbers. Some would say that those who employ these techniques to that exclusive goal are disgusting people, while others would say...well, if she fell for it...so who's really to blame then?


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Good point. 

I never really had to use those techniques myself. But I don't really have a strong sense of judging anyone if they chose to employ them. 

I'm too old for judgement and opinions....😜
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## HuggyBear (Aug 4, 2012)

Way back at University, I remember (shock right there!) taking a human ethology class on human sexual evolution.

The PUA "techniques" alone aren't going to get you instant sex from any woman in a bar (or church, museum, public transportation, for that matter), as much as social position, money, intelligence, or physique will, but when men can read as well as display "cues" relevant to pairing, they become much more successful at finding a partner.

The reality in the trenches is that there are numbers of guys who get many, many women pretty much of their own choice, and they can even afford to allow women to "fight it out" to see who will get them.... on the other hand, there are many, many many men who NEVER get any, despite endless trying and squandering of resources. These "techniques" definitely help some guys who are seemingly clueless or might even be mistaken for aloof; that they produce success is a fact. That's why it has become an industry.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

These Pick up sites are endless on the Net...Seeking to find an article on this and "Standards"... this came up in Google...has it all laid out to the benefits of lowering one's standards ... why else.. to get more experience & get HOTTER WOMEN! 

Lower Your Standards (and Date Hotter Girls) | 




> Today, the women I date in long-term relationships are higher quality than the women I pursued for these when I didn't know what I was doing. The girls I date now are more beautiful than the girls I used to chase after and not get were. They're more fun and more intelligent. And they contribute a great deal to my life.
> 
> I would not be able to get the kind of women I have relationships with now were I less experienced with women.


Women should be very very weary of these A-holes... I find it downright disgraceful ...

They also show a table listing what attributes men value & dislikes (pluses & minuses) in *short term* ...and what they seek (pluses & minuses) in *Long term* mating ....



> *Short-Term Standards: Varied Among Men*
> 
> One more bit of research here, that I think helps shed a little more light on the differences:
> 
> ...


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I won't dispute the short term benefits some may achieve by utilizing the techniques. But that is mostly where the problem lies, it is all about the application of the technique of presentation as opposed to the actual development of the self. In many ways it represents style over substance. Which in my mind is a very shallow and unrewarding way to live your life.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

I believe the name says it all. They are not MOAs (marriage oriented artists) they are there for a specific purpose. Furthermore, any woman looking for a quality husband needn't look where these PUAs usually hang out. You will get proposed to but it will not be the proposition you are looking for, IMO.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Woah....Woah....Woah....There can be no Pick Up Artists's without there being at least as many Pick Up Available's......I am sure the PUA's would cease to exist if they struck out most of the time....In fact they would become a colossal joke, and whole clubs, bars, lounges full of people would laugh the minute they walked in....

That is obviously not the case. For every PUA. their is a PUA who immediately orders the lobster when the waiter hands her the menu....


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I have met a couple of blokes into this scene. One in Europe, where it is not so big. What he described repulsed me, it was identifying and playing on feelings of inadequacy. 

In the USA, it seems to be a far bigger thing and a chap was trying lines on a lady. It backfired and I was able to meet and become friendly with her in the aftermath. Rather than being annoyed at someone swooping in, he was just interested to learn what I had done. This man works two jobs, but is still on a low income and he is also 5'4". He has a choice, accept women do not like him and become bitter and resentful and post poison on the internet, accept he has no future with women unless a woman comes along who has a thing for short men on low income, or learn how to get on with women. He chose the third option and I often go out with him drinking.

Edit to add: One thing I discussed with my short friend was listening. How when something is said, do not just look for something in common and jump in "Oh, I have a friend who went there too!", but try to understand what sort of person would do that thing, what is motivating them and how do they feel about it. Basically, sensitive listening. For him it was all about learning how to relate and get on with women, as well as getting to sleep with them. I actually think if people were better at that, there would be a bit less poison in the world.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Yeah, I have no interest in learning the ins and outs. As a single woman, it's enough for me to just be aware that there are men out there ascribing to this *B.S.*


 @SecondTime'Round you know my initials are "B.S." 

Has anyone ever told you that your butterfly avatar is a common tramp stamp, and it makes you look kind of loose? You might want to change it!

_(this is a PUA technique called negging Negging Women ? 10 Awesome Negs That Work | Seduction Science )_

Then the PUA would pay attention to see if you change your avatar, and then compliment you on the new one! 

Cheers, 
Badsanta

PS: Please don't change your avatar! (or was that just another PUA move?)


Bwahahahahahaha


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

badsanta said:


> @SecondTime'Round you know my initials are "B.S."
> 
> Has anyone ever told you that your butterfly avatar is a common tramp stamp, and it makes you look kind of loose? You might want to change it!
> 
> ...


Haha!! I'll just stick to being myself so I don't fall for the PUA moves! (The butterfly also symbolizes new life, which is why I chose it . )


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Ynot said:


> I won't dispute the short term benefits some may achieve by utilizing the techniques. But that is mostly where the problem lies, it is all about the application of the technique of presentation as opposed to the actual development of the self. In many ways it represents style over substance. Which in my mind is a very shallow and unrewarding way to live your life.


This is a very apt point. Those that need to prescribe to the PUA philosophy are those that actually need it the most. They lack the "substance" that would create attraction in women (be it looks, social aptitude, conversational skills, what ever...)

I found the techniques "lazy", for lack of a better word. Lazy in the sense that the PUA is faking his way to upsell traits he can't really deliver on in a long term relationship.
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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*PUA- Sounds a whole lot like opening up a fresh jug of milk at the grocery checkout counter, and then taking a big swig, without ever having to pay for it!*
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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Personal said:


> Of course you can entirely be yourself, I probably would have failed miserably pretending to be something I wasn't.
> 
> At the end of the day if one doesn't actually have that which makes them attractive to their chosen target audience. And they pretend to be what they're not,* the wheels are probably going to fall off at some point.*


Of course the wheels are going to come off. PUA pretty much counts on that and takes it into consideration. The PUA techniques are not designed for finding and maintaining long term healthy relationships. In the case of male PUA, they are designed to get the guy employing them laid until the woman no longer comes back for more. That's it, and it works.

When looking at male PUA, the thought that it is used primarily by guys who don't have the skills to get the chicks in bed naturally...well duh! But here's the thing...

When looking at PUA, and comparing things, you have to consider the end goals and what is considered the winning scenario. If one is playing a game not to lose, that is easier to achieve than playing to win. In the case of male PUA, if one is looking just to get laid, if having sex with a woman, ANY woman is the winning scenario for the guy, that is easier to achieve than a long term sexual relationship.

Of course none of it would work if there weren't plenty of complicit targets.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I've never understood this. Why not just go to Craigslist and rent the services of a lady of negotiable virtue.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

Seems like a pretty cynical take. The psychology and body language tools are real, and the approaches can help men who are perpetual "nice guys", socially awkward, self-sabotaging in conversation, clueless about appearance & fashion, etc. 

The premium placed on dating in volume is also useful for a guy who's hopelessly fixated on one woman, maybe one who's bad for him or unavailable (oneitis). I don't see an emphasis on lowering standards so much as raising them to include women a guy might have otherwise considered "out of his league" and to cultivate a mentality of abundance. Better that than rush into a "marriage oriented" stance with the first woman who comes along because he believes he has few options.

Yes, much of the presentation is crass, but it's up to the reader to decide whether to use the methods in a cynical & shallow manner, or as a "fake it till you make it" bootstrap route to greater self-confidence in social situations and human relationships.. 

From what I've read, many "pua" authors acknowledge that it's better to BE a self-actualized, relaxed, outcome-independent and interesting man in truth and speak from your heart (a so-called "natural") than it is to fake such cues and parrot lines & scripts. But if you're starting from zero confidence or social awareness, even such inauthentic courage may be an improvement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Woodchuck said:


> Woah....Woah....Woah....There can be no Pick Up Artists's without there being at least as many Pick Up Available's......I am sure the PUA's would cease to exist if they struck out most of the time....In fact they would become a colossal joke, and whole clubs, bars, lounges full of people would laugh the minute they walked in....
> 
> That is obviously not the case. For every PUA. their is a PUA who immediately orders the lobster when the waiter hands her the menu....


I think that they do strike out most of the time. Just because some guys pay for the seminars, books, etc. does not mean that most of the attendees actually get anywhere with the nonsense taught by these things.

Believe me, most women can spot these guys from a mile away and want nothing to do with it.


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

Saying that PUA techniques work because a lot of men have bought into it is like saying that snake oil is a proven cure all.

Slick salesmanship is what sells PUA, not the product. The psychology that is working in these situations is the psychology the salesmen are using to convince desperate, bitter, lonely, and/or horny men that buying this snake oil will help.

The effectiveness of the marketing is not proof that the product is effective.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

Nynaeve said:


> Saying that PUA techniques work because a lot of men have bought into it is like saying that snake oil is a proven cure all.
> 
> The effectiveness of the marketing is not proof that the product is effective.


It isn't clear who you're responding to. I don't see anyone making that argument here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
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## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Thing I really dislike about the PUAs is when they focus on married women. I wonder how many of them have been "rewarded" by angry husbands...


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

I met a guy a few years ago that was in my circle of friends, he used to try every trick in the book to get me to go out on a date or get into bed with him. 

The guy was a total creep. He did have some success in manipulating lonely or naive women. But he would be upset that the women he was really attracted to rejected him. I used to warn women to steer clear and he wasn't very impressed. 

I had nothing but contempt for this man and his deliberate manipulation and lies. Gross.


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

Phil Anders said:


> It isn't clear who you're responding to. I don't see anyone making that argument here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 My post wasn't a specific response to any one specific argument. Several people in this thread made comments about how the psychology behind PUA is solid and/or effective or comments about how many people it has supposedly helped.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

For men who have had absolutely no success with women, what is the correct advice?
"Be yourself" has already proven a failure with them.
So they have to be someone else.

Of course it is hard for *most* women to empathize with this situation, as a woman of at least average attractiveness *generally *doesn't have much trouble finding a sex partner *of at least equal attractiveness*.


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## JukeboxHero (Mar 3, 2015)

I remember reading a lot of PUA material back in the day. Some of it was pretty good for encouraging socially awkward, "Nice Guys" , who do EVERYTHING to please woman and end losing attractiveness because of their general lack of confidence and placing women on pedestals. Honestly, most of the books that EVERYONE recommends here, NMMNG and MMSL are geared towards the same thing.
I recall reading one "PUA" guide that offered instructions on how to slowly gain/build confidence, specifically in regards to simply approaching women and starting a conversation. One of the first steps was simply approaching random, not-so-intimidating strangers like old people and starting conversations. Again, this is just basic stuff for the socially under-developed men to get them on a level where most other men are already on, so they don't feel awkward approaching random strangers.

There are lots of other "PUA" type services that also cover approaches and techniques in regards to long-term relationships. They're not ALL the sleazy, slick-willy guy trying to get a One night stand using whatever technique works. Also, despite everyone here saying they don't work, I know there are lots of people that had lots of success with various "Games" they would run. 

Really, it's just catching Nice Guys up to the "Game" that everyone else is running.


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

technovelist said:


> For men who have had absolutely no success with women, what is the correct advice?
> "Be yourself" has already proven a failure with them.
> So they have to be someone else.
> 
> Of course it is hard for *most* women to empathize with this situation, as a woman of at least average attractiveness *generally *doesn't have much trouble finding a sex partner *of at least equal attractiveness*.


Life doesn't HAVE to be all about "success with women." 

The idea of shifting paradigms never occurs to a lot of people, I know. But it's sad to me how narrow some people's outlooks are.
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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

Again this seems like false dichotomy...who's advocating making life "all about success with women"? Yet if it's an area where you've consistently come up short, it's logical to seek targeted solutions.

FWIW, some PUA dogma makes exactly your point: that your sense of self-worth ideally should NOT depend exclusively on getting laid (or otherwise externally validated), and that you should develop authentic personal passions that make you and your stories & pursuits intrinsically attractive to others.
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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

i never figured there was a 'science' to picking up women, but i guess it does makes sense.

though i have never 'picked up' a woman in my life, nor do i regret having not done so, iv'e never even tried once. however,
i have seen master pick up artists close up and personal for years.

my circle of friends back in the day included quite a few guys that could virtually pick up a chick almost any time they wanted to.
if you made a bet "pick up a chick in the next 1-hr. and you get $100.00" they could do it, no problem.
as a matter of fact, iv'e witnessed it many times. one friend of mine said no more than about 5 words to a chick and she left the dudes following 
her for him and they bunked the weekend together. this buddy 'o mine had a pot belly with a nice face, but he just 'had' it and chicks loved him.

my observation was that it was a lot more about attitude and confidence than anything they said. if i said the same things, i would sound like a total doofus.
they had swagger and a twinkle in their eye. they oozed machismo. looks didn't matter as much as confidence either. they just 'had' it. it'd be very hard to teach that.

their learning probably came in jr. high or before and they just figured chicks out early.

these guys never took classes or read books. 

kinda makes the ones that do seem kind of pathetic.


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

Phil Anders said:


> Again this seems like false dichotomy...who's advocating making life "all about success with women"? Yet if it's an area where you've consistently come up short, it's logical to seek targeted solutions.
> 
> FWIW, some PUA dogma makes exactly your point: that your sense of self-worth ideally should NOT depend exclusively on getting laid (or otherwise externally validated), and that you should develop authentic personal passions that make you and your stories & pursuits intrinsically attractive to others.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh please. If it was about changing paradigms to make people focus on things other than " success with women" then it wouldn't be called "pick-up artistry" and it wouldn't be focused primarily on getting success with women. 

I will never understand why some people can't just call a thing what it is. I'm not creating a false dichotomy. PUA is about picking up women. That's why it's called that. I don't know why it's important to some men to try to sell it as if it's a comprehensive life plan with benefits beyond its named purpose. But those are, at best, tangential to the main purpose. 

PUA is specific marketed to men who want to get laid but can't. It's designed to supposedly get them what they want. It isn't designed to get them to change their thinking, broaden their worldview, develop their spirituality or otherwise improve their lives. That wouldn't sell. I think it's ridiculously naive to think those selling PUA have any other motive than to make money off of the insecurities of men. Looking for a diamond in the pile of sh1t in order to justify the pile is just silly. IMHO.
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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I was rather awkward with women, twenty years later I am rather assured. Clearly, I learnt something along the way. I do not consider that sleazy of me.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Nynaeve said:


> Life doesn't HAVE to be all about "success with women."
> 
> The idea of shifting paradigms never occurs to a lot of people, I know. But it's sad to me how narrow some people's outlooks are.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you are hungry, I mean really hungry, just about all you can think about is food.

If you are thirsty, just about all you can think about is water.

Does that mean that life is all about food and water? No, it means that if those needs are not being met, they are what you think about.

The generalization to sex should be obvious, but in case it isn't:
If you are sexually deprived, just about all you can think about is sex.

That still doesn't mean that life is all about sex. It means that if that need is not being met, it is what you think about.

And to forestall the objection that sex isn't a need, that depends on the individual. For an HD individual, it can be almost physically painful to be deprived of sex for a long time. Who is anyone else to say that their pain is unimportant?


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