# Forgiveness



## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

I'm a BS about 18 months out from day and we're trying to R. I read a lot here but don't post often. The last couple of weeks my anger about his A seems to have resurfaced with a vengeance. For a long time I was equally angry at the xOW and my WS but over time my anger at the xOW has diminished and both barrels, so to speak, are now aimed directly at my WS. I realize my anger is part of this nasty roller coaster but it has brought the issue of forgiveness to the forefront. 

I'm a huge grudge holder, always have been. I'm not even sure what it means to forgive or really how to do it. My dad was the same way and he went to his grave 2.5 years ago with no end to the cold, stone wall of his silent treatment he'd given me for 2 years prior to his death. I can say I had truly given up on ever again having a relationship with my dad about 5 months before he died. I always knew whether or not my dad was angry with someone by whether or not he was willing to contact them on a birthday or major holiday. Weird, I know. When there was no word from him on my 40th birthday a few years back, I had this sense of finality and that he would never forgive me for a conversation we'd had in 2009 that did not end well. He died five months after my 40th birthday in 2011.

Dad left this world with me holding his hand but by then he was brain dead and had only been removed from life support 30 minutes prior. We never had a conversation again after 2009. He couldn't, or wouldn't, forgive me and I eventually gave up trying. My dad would not respond to me by phone, in person, or even mail. Not even to tell me to 'F' off. I reached out many times and the response was crickets.

I digress.....in my current situation I see many facets of the lack of forgiveness (me) and giving up (WS). I had a meltdown about the affair yesterday and an even bigger one today. I realized today that I'm sure I've never really forgiven anyone for any transgression, big or small. 

If I feel wronged by someone important to me I either keep them at arms length emotionally or if possible, I cut them out of my life. I avoid emotional intimacy with everyone and long ago pushed the close friends I once had out of my life. I know, I sound like a real peach.....ugh.

I want to reconcile with WS but I really don't know what forgiveness looks like or even how to start. I'm not trying to be dumb, I really don't know how to start or even what it looks like to forgive anyone. I've looked up forgiveness on the internet and have tried to understand it but I can't make the concept make sense in my own head. 

I understand people make bad decisions, mistakes, etc. I'm not perfect nor is anyone else. However, I keep going back to adultery being a choice and not an oops/mistake, it's something that has to be schemed and plotted out. No one trips over their D into someone else's V..... oopsie. Yah, doesn't work like that. 

My therapist asked me to define what forgiveness means to me and the first thing that popped into my head was putting oneself in the position of being vulnerable to someone who had already proven they are willing to cut you to the core. But isn't that what marriage is all about? The willingness and the ability to be vulnerable with the one you should be the closest to? It's clear that in large part I view relationships as a power struggle and that can't be anything but f'ed up in the worst way - on my part.

Perhaps I should just let WS go because maybe I'M too f'ed up to be with anyone. H*ll, I'm a mom of three grown kids and a college educated professional and I have to go to the friggin internet to figure out forgiveness....and it still doesn't make sense! 

Please don't blast me, I know I've rambled. I've had a really s*itty time of it lately and just trying to figure out how to forgive with no prior experience. Help....


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## sdcott (Oct 9, 2012)

Hello,
I wrote this to my husband 11 months ago. Our Dday was March 20,12. I still struggle with feeling a true sense of forgiveness. I too am an educated professional who has found recovering from this to be the most difficult event in my life. I understand much of what you have written as it resonates with much of my life too. Perhaps something I wrote will help you in someway. I re-read it sometimes to help me stay on track - still far from easy!!

Hello Sweetheart,
I have been thinking a lot about what you said to me over the past days. I hear you, I really do. I don’t disagree with what you think and have been searching for ways within me to move past and forward as we both need. 
It hurt and disappointed me when I admitted I had not been able to forgive as completely as I had wanted. I have been working thru pieces and parts of the whole thing. I can’t handle it as one simple piece. 
You say it feels like I am trying to punish you sometimes. In a way, that is probably true, tho not intentional. I have hung onto the couple of things that hurt me the most deeply and have had a hard time moving past those things. You are right that it feels like I have been stuck there. 
The part that has been the hardest for me is that I was keeping part of me shut down and detached because that is my old defense mechanism. I built walls around part of me because I was afraid of more pain and not being able to handle it. Self-preservation, but it has been damaging my ability to actually let go of the anger because I walled anger in with that part that I kept away from you and us. I was afraid to express anger anymore because I did not want you to reach your final straw and not want to deal with my emotions. Anger is such a weird emotion because it is supposed to protect us from further damage; it keeps us vigilant, aware and defensive to protect ourselves if needed. But, as long as I felt I needed to protect myself, I could not move past the pain I walled up.
You know me better than I know myself often, and I could not see what I was doing because I was consumed with denying my feelings because I felt it was wrong ( I don’t want to be angry with you, I love you). I read and read so I could find a way to justify my anger and withdrawal so I could feel safe, just in case something happened. I wanted to know how to move on while holding onto these feelings that justified my anger and withholding part of me.
I have forgiven so many things associated with the events of our recent past. I was afraid to acknowledge the anger. That is where I was stuck. 
You expressed you were concerned I have no personal passions or goals, only reading about recovery. I do have goals and passions; they were just overcome and overshadowed by these other emotions. You were right, I was consumed. Ironically, I found some articles that were written by real people (not doctors) who have been involved with recovering their marriages. Thru these I could see where I was and why you feel the way you do. Their descriptions were as if we had written about our life, and these are the couples who not only stayed together but expressed so much happiness with their life after the affair because they did chose to stay together and do what it took to make a strong and fulfilling marriage. 
I have really looked at my feelings today and recognized these things. I asked for your patience and compassion without understanding that my own patience from me and for me was exhausted. I was so tired of denying the anger that I just walled it in and walked away from all that it was attached to and just felt the pain it caused. Hard to move past when the source is not being let go. I am sorry, I did not recognize this. Thank you for saying what you did to me and taking the time to find the words that got through to me. 
I guess the anniversary aspect of dates was a way for me to validate and give myself permission to feel the real pain that those dates represented to me. Instead of random days those were the days that made sense to me to acknowledge the reality and yes, perhaps make sure I was not alone in having to face the pain associated. As long as I could not move forward I wanted to know you had to acknowledge my pain too, perhaps a desire for fairness with something that seems so unfair in many ways.
Please realize I DO FORGIVE YOU, and today I think I can say it is a complete forgiveness. Before it was partial, but those parts were sincere. I felt a softening in my heart today that I have not felt for a year and a half. I knew something was very wrong way back and did try to create some protection from an unseen enemy. 
I LOVE YOU WITH ALL OF MY HEART, all that is me. I sent you the picture of the red rock stone so you knew that I give you my heart. I have been searching within myself the last two days and remembering what all you said to me the other day and morning. I have had to process what you said. It was difficult for me, and I also understood that you used tremendous patience and were working hard with me. Thank you, I know conversations like that are very hard for you. You really helped me and us with what you said. Now I feel like I can start moving past a lot of the sticky details that were haunting my heart and thoughts. I know I will never forget, I don’t expect to. But I can’t be a victim of the past or my own thoughts. I have always been a survivor, but often not healed. I have to make the choice to heal me and with that, us and you. I realize it was me that was holding us back. I used to feel that it wasn’t fair for you to say you could start healing after I did. I wanted to focus on you getting past it so I did not have to be afraid of your feelings being locked up and leading us down a scary path again. Really, it was easier for me to focus on you than to face myself and my walls I had chosen to build. Avoiding getting past my pain was allowing me to be justified in holding the anger and hiding parts of me for safe keeping. I could not see this until today.
I know you have tried to redirect me and out of frustration have expressed that it seems I should be more over it than I acted. There are many parts that I have dealt with and have gotten over. The last parts that I had refused to face were what I was holding onto and it is not healthy. 
I hope letting you know what I have realized gives you a sense of relief and a knowing that you really helped me. I never thought this would be easy, and some days I didn’t think it would be as hard as it has been sometimes. I can’t promise I will never have a bad day again, but I will be using a much different approach and understanding than what I have been doing. 
Maybe allowing the anniversary days to allow the emotions to bubble to the top has helped me to recognize this along with what you said to me. You asked if every year will the many days on the calendar cause a bad day because ____________ happened that day. No, because I don’t need those days to give me permission to feel pain because I am not allowing it to stay inside me anymore. I don’t need to keep going thru it, as you know I have done plenty of that this year. Thank you for your commitment and perseverance. 
I love you and our marriage/relationship is the single most important thing in my life. Thank you for your friendship, love, patience and determination this past year. 
All of my love always,
Your wife


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

TryingToRecover said:


> *I'm a huge grudge holder, always have been. I'm not even sure what it means to forgive or really how to do it. *


I can relate to your feelings on forgiveness. I am also a grudge holder and find it hard to forgive.

I really wrestled with what it meant to forgive my wife for her affair. In a way I thought I did, however, the triggers and depression were still there. I found myself getting mad at her over her affair. I often suppressed it which led to depression.

Over the years, I have come to realize that I do fully forgive her. It is hard to describe. I guess it is the ability to move on from the transgression. The ability to love. The ability to live a good life. The ability to know I would rather live with her than without her. In the end it is knowing that she is more important than that one event.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> I can relate to your feelings on forgiveness. I am also a grudge holder and find it hard to forgive.
> 
> I really wrestled with what it meant to forgive my wife for her affair. In a way I thought I did, however, the triggers and depression were still there. I found myself getting mad at her over her affair. I often suppressed it which led to depression.
> 
> Over the years, I have come to realize that I do fully forgive her. It is hard to describe. I guess it is the ability to move on from the transgression. The ability to love. The ability to live a good life. The ability to know I would rather live with her than without her. In the end it is knowing that she is more important than that one event.


.. and that she is not defined in your mind and heart by this event?


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Philat said:


> .. and that she is not defined in your mind and heart by this event?


Yes, absolutely, I think you summarized it very well!!


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

johnAdams said:


> Yes, absolutely, I think you summarized it very well!!


I can feel myself getting to that point in my own marriage.


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## DeterminedToThrive (Nov 2, 2013)

Forgiveness was a tough one for me also. It's not forgetting, condoning or excusing the A and it doesn't mean you'll feel less pain or that the damage will be less. It's not refusing to talk or think about the A. I feel commanded by my faith to forgive, Sooo, what the heck is forgiveness? 

I finally figured out, FOR ME, forgiveness is accepting my husband's remorse and letting go of the need for revenge to my husb and the OW. It is attempting to deal with my anger and pain in a productive way instead of letting it spew out in pure vile, it is attempting to move forward with positive steps. It is letting go of the need to use the pain and anger of the affair to continue to punish my husband. 

After a couple of months of research, bible reading and pondering, that's what I came up with, I have no idea if it's correct but it's all I could figure out.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

TryingToRecover said:


> I'm a BS about 18 months out from day and we're trying to R. I read a lot here but don't post often. The last couple of weeks my anger about his A seems to have resurfaced with a vengeance. For a long time I was equally angry at the xOW and my WS but over time my anger at the xOW has diminished and both barrels, so to speak, are now aimed directly at my WS. I realize my anger is part of this nasty roller coaster but it has brought the issue of forgiveness to the forefront.
> 
> I'm a huge grudge holder, always have been. I'm not even sure what it means to forgive or really how to do it. My dad was the same way and he went to his grave 2.5 years ago with no end to the cold, stone wall of his silent treatment he'd given me for 2 years prior to his death. I can say I had truly given up on ever again having a relationship with my dad about 5 months before he died. I always knew whether or not my dad was angry with someone by whether or not he was willing to contact them on a birthday or major holiday. Weird, I know. When there was no word from him on my 40th birthday a few years back, I had this sense of finality and that he would never forgive me for a conversation we'd had in 2009 that did not end well. He died five months after my 40th birthday in 2011.
> 
> ...


You have been injured. By two men in your life. Your WS and your father.

Ask your therapist to help you come to terms with the damage your father caused you.

Then you might be able to move on to forgive your WS.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> I can relate to your feelings on forgiveness. I am also a grudge holder and find it hard to forgive.
> 
> I really wrestled with what it meant to forgive my wife for her affair. In a way I thought I did, however, the triggers and depression were still there. I found myself getting mad at her over her affair. I often suppressed it which led to depression.
> 
> Over the years, I have come to realize that I do fully forgive her. It is hard to describe. I guess it is the ability to move on from the transgression. The ability to love. The ability to live a good life. The ability to know I would rather live with her than without her. In the end it is knowing that she is more important than that one event.


This helps a lot but I just don't understand the logistics involved with forgiveness. I know much time has to pass to get to this point, to move on from the transgression? Have you been able to move on from any fears your wife could do this again? 

I seem to be firmly stuck in that frame of mind that not only could it happen again, it probably will happen again - particularly when my paranoia is operating at full blast, not because anything has actually happened. I've been stuck in this spiral for some time now and afraid to take the chance on getting hurt deeply again, by him or anyone.

Logistics and things which are linear make more sense to me, and are more comfortable for me to deal with, than emotions. Deep down inside I'm very emotional and sensitive but my mind and engineering mindset tend to prevail. I'm tired of feeling things, feeling anything really. For supposedly being pretty smart I sure do feel stupid in all of this. I wish I knew better at how to get there.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

TryingToRecover said:


> This helps a lot but I just don't understand the logistics involved with forgiveness. I know much time has to pass to get to this point, to move on from the transgression? Have you been able to move on from any fears your wife could do this again?
> 
> I seem to be firmly stuck in that frame of mind that not only could it happen again, it probably will happen again - particularly when my paranoia is operating at full blast, not because anything has actually happened. I've been stuck in this spiral for some time now and afraid to take the chance on getting hurt deeply again, by him or anyone.
> 
> Logistics and things which are linear make more sense to me, and are more comfortable for me to deal with, than emotions. Deep down inside I'm very emotional and sensitive but my mind and engineering mindset tend to prevail. I'm tired of feeling things, feeling anything really. For supposedly being pretty smart I sure do feel stupid in all of this. I wish I knew better at how to get there.


18 months is still too soon for you to expect to have recovered from this blow. There is unfortunately no template--it is a very individual thing. You need more time, and you need your H to help you. Look at the link in Mrs John Adams' signature for a resource.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> You have been injured. By two men in your life. Your WS and your father.
> 
> Ask your therapist to help you come to terms with the damage your father caused you.
> 
> Then you might be able to move on to forgive your WS.


I've been in and out of therapy for a very long time regarding my dad. Over the years I've gotten much closer at coming to terms with our relationship. I have a better understanding of it and have processed much of it, including my grief over his death. It still hurts to think about but not like it once was. Unfortunately, dealing with this affair feels exponentially worse.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

TryingToRecover said:


> This helps a lot but I just don't understand the logistics involved with forgiveness. I know much time has to pass to get to this point, to move on from the transgression? *Have you been able to move on from any fears your wife could do this again? *
> 
> I seem to be firmly stuck in that frame of mind that not only could it happen again, it probably will happen again - particularly when my paranoia is operating at full blast, not because anything has actually happened. I've been stuck in this spiral for some time now and afraid to take the chance on getting hurt deeply again, by him or anyone.
> 
> Logistics and things which are linear make more sense to me, and are more comfortable for me to deal with, than emotions. Deep down inside I'm very emotional and sensitive but my mind and engineering mindset tend to prevail. I'm tired of feeling things, feeling anything really. For supposedly being pretty smart I sure do feel stupid in all of this. I wish I knew better at how to get there.


You sound like and analytic person. I am the analytic one in our relationship, my wife is the emotional one. You bring up a good point. I would have thought an affair to be impossible to begin with, my wife would never betray me. But she did, the impossible happened. If it happened once it can happen again. Unfortunately, with the affair, the innocence of your marriage disappeared forever. You can forgive and not be paranoid about him cheating again. However, if for no other reason than your peace of mind, new boundaries and conditions have to exist. He has to be more transparent. No secrets. He has to let you know where he is going, when he will be home and even check in more often than the past. My wife still does this for me even though I do not ask and I do trust her. You now know it is possible so you and your husband have to take precautions to ensure it never happens again.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> You sound like and analytic person. I am the analytic one in our relationship, my wife is the emotional one. You bring up a good point. I would have thought an affair to be impossible to begin with, my wife would never betray me. But she did, the impossible happened. If it happened once it can happen again. Unfortunately, with the affair, the innocence of your marriage disappeared forever. *You can forgive and not be paranoid about him cheating again. However, if for no other reason than your peace of mind, new boundaries and conditions have to exist. He has to be more transparent. No secrets. He has to let you know where he is going, when he will be home and even check in more often than the past. My wife still does this for me even though I do not ask and I do trust her. You now know it is possible so you and your husband have to take precautions to ensure it never happens again.*


Yep, he has done and continues to do all of these things, up to and including taking pictures of where he is at any given time. He has made a huge effort in this area and others. 

I think about all of this and think people don't do things they don't want to do, such as having an affair. It's a choice which takes scheming, plotting, and lying to pull off. He wanted to do it, he had to of, even if he believes now it was a mistake. I look at that and see if he wanted THAT so badly, why in the world would he want ME now? 

Even though I understand logically his affair was about him and his issues - I get that on an intellectual level - yet I also have a hard time understanding why there's any reason on earth why he would still want me now. I'm in my 40's, the xOW is in her 20's. I'm attractive and fit and so is the xOW..... and she's still young, at least quite a bit younger than me. I've allowed his affair to punch a huge hole in my self image. A grey hair is no longer a grey hair, it's another sign of me being "older than the hills" and no longer viable. Intellectually I know that's garbage but my pain over the affair says otherwise.

Yes, I am a very analytic person and I see things black in white with very few shades of grey, if any. I'm an engineer and I tend to fit neatly into certain stereotypes about engineers . WS is emotional, impulsive, and leans towards drama. I'm calm (until I have meltdowns over the A and lose my s*it), very methodical, not impulsive at all. 

Add to it my lack of patience and stubbornness, I often think I'm doomed to fail in the relationship department. I don't even know what it means to start forgiving but here I am trying to be in a marriage. Well, I've been doing that for over 20 years.....I must really be some kind of fool :scratchhead:.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

TryingToRecover said:


> Yep, he has done and continues to do all of these things, up to and including taking pictures of where he is at any given time. He has made a huge effort in this area and others.
> 
> I think about all of this and think people don't do things they don't want to do, such as having an affair. It's a choice which takes scheming, plotting, and lying to pull off. He wanted to do it, he had to of, even if he believes now it was a mistake. I look at that and see if he wanted THAT so badly, why in the world would he want ME now?
> 
> ...


If nothing else, I have re-read my post and realized that perhaps I could be looking for "evidence of my unworthiness" that reinforces things I've long believed about myself. I did allow his affair to blow a hole in my self image but I can't say my self image was that great to begin with. Which is part of why I find it difficult to believe WS would still want me even though the attractive twenty something office bicycle made herself available to him and others. Maybe I'm afraid to get better. I just don't know.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

First consider focusing on SECURITY. 
What would make you secure enough to go on if your spouse left?
Secure that you will not crumble?
Secure that your life can be good again?
Secure that you have value?


What did you learn from your therapist?


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

I think this is also why I had such trouble with forgiveness. I am analytic. I put all the pieces of the affair together, put together my own timeline. Pulled together other facts of what happened in this timeframe. What did I come up with, a logical sequence, but no logic. I almost think you have to throw out the logic part of the affair.

I also dealt with all the self esteem issues. My self image was completely down the toilet. 

I see things in shades of grey now more than I used to, being in corporate management, all things are grey.....

You are not doomed to fail. Your husband is sorry. He has taken steps to assure you he will be faithful. Time is the best thing you have on your side. Try to live life normal. Talk to him about it when you need to. Have him read the book in my wife's signature. You can move on.....things will never be the same.....but, you can have a wonderful marriage despite his affair.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

I posted this on another thread recently; maybe it will be of some help:

Some thoughts on forgiveness from Shirley Glass's book, NOT Just Friends:

_The reason we discuss forgiveness in the next to last chapter is because forgiveness is at the end of a long journey of healed wounds.

Forgiving is not a single event, but a gradual process of increasing compassion and reducing resentment.

...premature or inappropriate forgiveness can give a false sense of healing that is out of sync with your underlying emotions. Forgiving too soon can lower your feelings of self-worth....

It is time to forgive when shattered assumptions have been reconstructed in a meaningful way. There should be no additional surprises or shoes dropping after forgiveness: the full extent of betrayal and all of the significant details are known. Forgiveness is appropriate when there is evidence of intent to change; for example, when troubled partners are working in therapy or a support group on their individual problems....

You cannot move on and you cannot forgive if you are not safe. If the threat of reinjury is real and imminent, the imperiled partner has no choice but to stay on the defensive and remain alert to any hint of attack....If the current affair is over but there's no reasonable assurance against future infidelity, staying stuck in unmitigated suffering protects the betrayed partner from the devastation of being unprepared for the next act of treachery.

In couples who heal together, forgiveness is built on the sincere remorse of the unfaithful partner. It involves both of you. Over time, you have made good on your intention to reconcile and have demonstrated (through specific acts of relationship building) a commitment to each other._


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> First consider focusing on SECURITY.
> What would make you secure enough to go on if your spouse left?
> Secure that you will not crumble?
> Secure that your life can be good again?
> ...


I would be sad and deeply hurt if this didn't work out but I feel secure in that I could go on by myself. I'm a strong person and can also take care of myself financially.

I know I won't crumble and I believe - sometimes - life could be good again.

I'm a little iffy on value and my self image. Although this has improved over my life, shaking the monkey off my back that is my parents and the way I was raised is another story. Mom is likely NPD and/or borderline personality disorder (bpd suggested to her by her own therapist, not me dx'ing her), dad was an avoidant type and absentee parent during part of my childhood (nine years old on). Parents were 18/19 when they had me and the shotgun marriage (basically) they had barely scraped through three years in the early 70's. I was pawned off on both sets of grandparents, starting early on and often. Mom is an addict (men/sex, speed/cocaine, prescription drugs, shopping, you name it) and dad slowly and intentionally committed suicide via alcohol over the last year or so of his life. Both of them are/were the two most selfish people I've ever come across.

I'm learning from my therapist that my parents' actions and/or lack thereof was never about me. I was born into unfortunate circumstances to unfortunate people and I'm a survivor. There are a lot of battle scars I'm still learning to deal with. I've come a long ways but there's plenty of road in front of me.

Most of all I'm deeply scared of being hurt again. My mother was prone to disappearing for months at a time (4 months was the longest, no idea to this day where she was but likely on a drug binge) when I was a child. In turn, my father disappeared for one long stretch covering about six years and our relationship truly never recovered. My mother's one-time best friend, one who was overall more stable than she but obviously not entirely, was like a mother to me. When I was in my early 20's she disappeared too. She could no longer handle being friends with my mom and cut us both off. She later told me continuing to be close to me me would have been "too much" for her to deal with. WS cheated on me with his coworker.

I have abandonment issues and that, by far, is the biggest hurdle I have had to overcome. It's been hard to separate all of their issues from who I am, I tend to blame myself even though I know that's wrong. My intellect knows it's not about me but my emotions, that's a different story.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> I think this is also why I had such trouble with forgiveness. I am analytic. I put all the pieces of the affair together, put together my own timeline. Pulled together other facts of what happened in this timeframe. *What did I come up with, a logical sequence, but no logic. I almost think you have to throw out the logic part of the affair.*
> 
> I also dealt with all the self esteem issues. My self image was completely down the toilet.
> 
> ...


The lack of logic involved with his affair and getting beyond that will be tough for me. I've spent my entire life trying to "make things make sense" that I know I will have a hard time accepting he chose something so disastrous for no logical reason. I'm trying but I don't even know where to start.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> I have abandonment issues and that, by far, is the biggest hurdle I have had to overcome. It's been hard to separate all of their issues from who I am; I tend to blame myself even though I know that's wrong. My intellect knows it's not about me but my emotions, that's a different story.


I think that your abandonment issues and your self esteem must be addressed first before you tackle forgiveness or any other thing.

What have you done about getting help with those two issues?


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## brokeneric (Jan 27, 2014)

Forgiveness is not everyone's cup of tea.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

DeterminedToThrive said:


> Forgiveness was a tough one for me also. It's not forgetting, condoning or excusing the A and it doesn't mean you'll feel less pain or that the damage will be less. It's not refusing to talk or think about the A. I feel commanded by my faith to forgive, Sooo, what the heck is forgiveness?
> 
> I finally figured out, FOR ME, forgiveness is accepting my husband's remorse and *letting go of the need for revenge to my husb and the OW. It is attempting to deal with my anger and pain in a productive way instead of letting it spew out in pure vile, it is attempting to move forward with positive steps. * It is letting go of the need to use the pain and anger of the affair to continue to punish my husband.
> 
> After a couple of months of research, bible reading and pondering, that's what I came up with, I have no idea if it's correct but it's all I could figure out.


Thanks for responding. Interestingly, my anger at the xOW has diminished greatly. Particularly over the last six months or so. I actually did get revenge on her but ultimately, for me, it wasn't as satisfying as I thought it would be (but honestly, it wasn't a total letdown either) nor the factor which helped my anger begin to diminish. I came to accept that although she was a participant in a horribly selfish act which hurt me greatly, my WS had a choice and he chose to become involved with her. He could have said no, could have walked away. He didn't. Once I fully faced that fact my anger at him went through the roof. I do not believe I have forgiven the xOW but I just don't care about her involvement nearly as much as I used to. I now know a lot about her background, via her xBS, and to use the words of one of my adult children - she's a hot mess. She, perhaps, grew up in a worse situation than I did. It doesn't excuse her choices and I sort of pity her sad existence. That said, she's no longer a prominent figure in my marital mess.

That brings me to this. I wish my husband's affair and his deceit were no longer prominent factors in my marriage. It took time to deal with the bulk of my anger at the xOW and I know dealing with the rest will also take time. The problem is, I didn't have to look at/deal with the xOW unless I chose to look her up on the internet (Facebook, etc) or the one time I've seen her out in public since dday. Living with WS and trying to navigate towards forgiveness, something I admittedly know nothing about, has proven to be nothing but one big, fat trigger.

I hope one day we will be able to move on from this but I have had a lot of doubts lately. The vile that has come out of my mouth has been pretty bad. I'm tired of feeling my feelings, all of them. I have experienced the plane of lethal flatness and some days I'd like to go back to that even though it's not really a ton better for my own recovery.

I am so angry at WS for doing this. I've thought about an RA but I won't go there. I know it would make things far worse than they already are. How I'll even begin to forgive him completely defies me at this moment.

Thanks for letting me ramble.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> I think that your abandonment issues and your self esteem must be addressed first before you tackle forgiveness or any other thing.
> 
> What have you done about getting help with those two issues?


I've been in and out of therapy for years, currently in therapy. Have also been on AD's for years. Things have improved but that kind of childhood just doesn't leave a person. I believe at some level I will always have abandonment issues.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

As a Christian I could give you some good insights from my perspective but I am actually going to recommend a book from a Jewish author.

"Forgive For Good", by Dr. Fred Luskin. He is the director and cofounder of the Stanford University Forgiveness Project. There are some things I disagree with in his dealing with forgiveness, but putting those differences aside, I think he has a very good perspective on forgiveness.

It costs about $15.00.

We as a staff all read it and discussed it and I use it from time to time in my counseling as it is more secular then other books I have on forgiveness, but reflects most of my views on forgiveness.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

I really don't know if forgiveness is in our nature not total forgiveness anyhow, to achieve that you need to be able to forget
the damage done and that is almost impossible.

Besides where do we learn this forgiveness skill?

Many of the books I have read on forgiveness all say the same thing; forget the past, move on, it's more for yourself than the other person, rise above it be the better person.

Yeah o.k. show me where the button is to push that does all that and I will happily use it.

Think about how many times you have really be wronged or hurt in your life, for most (IMO) their spouse cheating was the first real devastating thing that has happened to them, the lack of practice so to speak makes it all very difficult.

Ask those who have been hurt several times in their life, you never truly forgive you just learn to live with it the best you can.

I have had more than my share and I speak from my experiences you never fully understand why things happen, what could drive people to be so cruel and selfish, to hold you in such a low opinion and if they did it once then they have the capacity to do it again no matter the promises made, so how do you forgive that?
Forgiveness happens on the day when you can't remember how you were hurt until then you just live with it.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Can a person do their part in forgiveness when they have such deep pains with abandonment and self esteem issues?


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## sdcott (Oct 9, 2012)

For me the forgiveness comes when I am too tired to allow myself to hurt. I kind of liken it to how a forest fire leaves behind the scarred landscape that will be covered in fresh green grass and plants the next spring. But underneath all that new growth there is still evidence of the scars from the fire, yet when gazing upon on the meadows, it is the fresh life that is most obvious.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

The OP made me sad - touching and sad post. No one here will blast you, or they better not!

If you already have a difficult time with forgiveness, you're going to have a hell of a time forgiving the ultimate betrayal. I couldn't do it, and I have been able to forgive in the past.

Best of luck to you. But unfortunately, I don't think one can feign forgiveness.


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## notdone (Jan 7, 2013)

Wow, do I feel for you.

The first thing that comes to mind is your self image. I know I've felt similar. For me it has been the grace of God. I don't expect really anyone to understand that. I was skeptical for many years, even though professing to be a christian.

There is an overwhelming change that happened in me and a true sense of security as I studied and prayed. At times a feeling like a big hug from out of nowhere. The acceptance and joy of a smile, a physical hug or kind words and thanking God for love and joy here.

This lead me to a better feeling about myself. Before, I feigned humbleness when people offered their praise in me. Now I accept it as a gift. Kind of a "hey, people like and enjoy me". I'll have some more of that please...

The other is the true practice of love. Like an athlete conditioning for a race. 1st Corinthians 13 describes what loving everyone really means, not what you should expect from others in the form of love, I believe. Love is freely given. Nothing in return is to be expected. Tough. Really tough to practice at first, just like any well done athletic event. Even non-christians reading here, trust me. It worked and still works.

I'm trying to not preach, just giving you what helped me.

Mr. Blunt here and Sandc really helped me and kept on supporting me. 2yrs now since the bomb. I'm functioning well now, but I still come back for guidance. 

Best wishes to you, you'll make it. I see fine character in your writing as you approach this issue.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

On DDay1 - around March 9th 2012 - my then wife told me that she had been "in love with another man for 2 years".

As things stood at that point, she had volunteered something I had suspected and often raised, but at least she had volunteered what I thought might be the truth.

Long story short, I forgave her as I could stand in her shoes. Love sometimes does not involve choice, but telling the truth does. Hence - forgiveness. I had something to forgive.

Dday2 on May 16th and for the next 12 months - she made hundreds of choices. Each time an informed, educated, choice to betray. Some of those choices were decisions she had previously made in the context of our relationship, but with different outcomes - in every case benefiting a man that was demonstrably "worse" than I.

I cannot forgive this as I not only would not have made the same decision given the same facts, nobody reasonable would have done so.

Given a jury, they would convict every time on Dday2.

As such, it is not within my gift to "forgive" decisions that were unreasonable by any measure.

I was "betrayed" once before by a business partner, but I could let this go once I read and understood the story of the monks.

I understand that you cannot move on as the couple you were without forgiveness and I have followed my moral compass by telling my ex wife as much. I can never forgive what she did as it is not possible for me to understand it.

I can, however, give her the chance to rebuild our relationship from the ground up - hence why I divorced her - she is failing at this too, but I have, at least, given her every opportunity to find a new path without my forgiveness.

One last - and very important - point, if it had not been for us having children I would have been gone on May 17th 2012.


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## daveca (Jan 14, 2014)

I feel it's important to remember your husband didn't do it TO you. By that I mean the intention was not to harm/hurt you. This is often overlooked when affairs happen. 

"How could you do that TO me?" That way of thinking results in difficulty to forgive as it becomes a case where it's felt punishment is necessary. One can not forgive at the same time they desire to punish. 

It's not unusual to hear a spouse was forgiven and then strays again. Then we hear people say, "Once a cheater, always a cheater." What is overlooked is the spouse strayed for a reason. They lacked something from the relationship and if the betrayed spouse attempts to punish the cheater it only makes the relationship worse than it was in the beginning. 

That's why counseling is vital. While cheating is wrong if the problem that led to it isn't resolved the same thing is going to happen again.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Re: Forgiveness*



daveca said:


> I feel it's important to remember your husband didn't do it TO you. By that I mean the intention was not to harm/hurt you. This is often overlooked when affairs happen.
> 
> "How could you do that TO me?" That way of thinking results in difficulty to forgive as it becomes a case where it's felt punishment is necessary. One can not forgive at the same time they desire to punish.
> 
> ...


.....but in some instances ....as with my wife's ONS .....she admitted that she was so angry with me and our marriage conditions, that ..though she was probably not acting rationally, she probably wanted to hurt me by her actions. 

.....I've had a real peach of a time trying to deal with THAT.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

daveca said:


> I feel it's important to remember your husband didn't do it TO you. By that I mean the intention was not to harm/hurt you. This is often overlooked when affairs happen.
> 
> "How could you do that TO me?" That way of thinking results in difficulty to forgive as it becomes a case where it's felt punishment is necessary. One can not forgive at the same time they desire to punish.
> 
> ...


I don't agree. Her husband humiliated her. Whether that was his intent or not, that is what he did. So I'd say he very much did "do something to her"

and I'm one of many here that believe that more often than not the best solution is to find a better partner. One that will not cheat....many do not


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## DeterminedToThrive (Nov 2, 2013)

daveca said:


> I feel it's important to remember your husband didn't do it TO you. By that I mean the intention was not to harm/hurt you. This is often overlooked when affairs happen.
> 
> "How could you do that TO me?" That way of thinking results in difficulty to forgive as it becomes a case where it's felt punishment is necessary. One can not forgive at the same time they desire to punish.
> 
> ...


I have a hard time buying this. I am a betrayed spouse, if there wasn't something done to me ... ahem, like ... being betrayed. Then why am I betrayed spouse? Of course something was done to you, just like it was done to me. They might never have thought about us at all during the A, but none the less it was done to us. We were betrayed by a loved one. That's what was done to us.

People stray in good and bad marriages. Straying has nothing to do with the marriage. It is a CHOICE to stray and making that choice is purely SELFISH. JMO


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

daveca said:


> I feel it's important to remember your husband didn't do it TO you. By that I mean the intention was not to harm/hurt you. This is often overlooked when affairs happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is a great post apart from the bit between the start and the finish.

The spouse betrayed because they chose to. Your assertion that they 'lacked something from the relationship ' is entirely irrelevant.

You are not only wrong, but in being so you insult all betrayed spouses and exacerbate the problems by so egregiously mis representing the situation.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Maybe a book from Amazon will help. The book is titled “Healing for Damaged Emotions” and got an over all rating of 4.5 stars out of a possible 5.0 starts. Link is below
Product Reviews: Healing for Damaged Emotions (David Seamands Series): Amazon.com







Also you may be interested in the TEN BEST BOOKS ON FORGIVENESS. See link below

http://www.amazon.com/Ten-Best-Books-Forgiveness/lm/R3LUK54E9MMI85


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Aha! 

We may as well stop discussing betrayal.

You see, daveca has it figured.

This is what he says:

"Hi Daisy. I've seen that question frequently asked and the answer is really quite obvious. What is cheating about? It's about sex. That's the answer."

We were all so dim.

Thanks, daveca, you have answered all of the torment. It was so easy in the end, wasn't it?

Edit: here is the link to one of his revelations:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/151945-i-dont-get-4.html#post6660321


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## Oregon Rose (Jul 1, 2013)

I am very much like you and I cannot forgive. For me it is simply that my WS had my trust once, showed me exactly how little our marriage meant to him and I get it. He won't ever have my trust again. Forgive him? No. I will stay until I can leave and not a day longer. I have financial issues to sort out and children to think about, but in time, I will leave because I cannot trust him or forgive him. I won't be dupped again.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Explain more about your father. Perhaps it was on another thread?

I have issues from childhood they are hard to shake.

As for forgiving your husband, the important thing is to judge his behavior in your new post Dday relationship. Compartmentalize your anger towards him. 

Do you enjoy intimacy with him?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

For me -forgiveness ?

Never

The acts of infidelity are one thing 
the mental treachery is another and the fact that 
if it is more than once then your whole time together has been one huge lie 
The 'chosen' decision to betray you, your children, the wife / husband of another family, his her wife, kids, extended families etc etc is just too colossal to forgive for me 

and that's from someone, me, who _desperately tried to forgive a serial cheat _

Two years on, separated, awaiting the divorce, we get along 'fine' but I never forget or forgive one single thing she put us all through 

......and actually I feel very very good about that. 

I let her get away with so much when with her I'll now never let her get away with sweeping the years of betrayal and destruction away with what for me is a little act of forgiveness for her benefit 

Fk that


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

daveca said:


> I feel it's important to remember your husband didn't do it TO you. By that I mean the intention was not to harm/hurt you. This is often overlooked when affairs happen.
> 
> "How could you do that TO me?" That way of thinking results in difficulty to forgive as it becomes a case where it's felt punishment is necessary. One can not forgive at the same time they desire to punish.


I suspect in a minute you'll be telling us it was a 'mistake'. 
What's overlooked is that once embroiled in the affair and it's 'up and running' every time those lips meet there's a decision to either fk over your husband wife kids and family his wife and family or ignore that destruction that you KNOW is coming. Guess what they do they choose to fjk YOU over to do it TO you

Christ 




daveca said:


> It's not unusual to hear a spouse was forgiven and then strays again. Then we hear people say, "Once a cheater, always a cheater." What is overlooked is the spouse strayed for a reason.


*W R O N G* - With respect I advise you to stay on this site for a few weeks read coping eith infidelity extensively and you will back here with a very revised opinion on this matter 



daveca said:


> They lacked something from the relationship and if the betrayed spouse attempts to punish the cheater it only makes the relationship worse than it was in the beginning.
> That's why counseling is vital. While cheating is wrong if the problem that led to it isn't resolved the same thing is going to happen again.


Yes and they could have of course decided to TALK about the problems to their Betrayed spouse rather than go and fk someone else couldn't they ! Have you thought about that option ?


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

Oregon Rose said:


> I am very much like you and I cannot forgive. For me it is simply that my WS had my trust once, showed me exactly how little our marriage meant to him and I get it. He won't ever have my trust again. Forgive him? No. I will stay until I can leave and not a day longer. I have financial issues to sort out and children to think about, but in time, I will leave because I cannot trust him or forgive him. I won't be dupped again.


Saw your original post with the short synopsis in another section of TAM. You should repost in this site or ask the moderators to move it here.

There are a lot of good people on this section of TAM who can give you support if you want.

I am sorry you are here and from the little I gathered from your post it is a terrible situation

Per your story, it is not only your husband but also your extended family that did this to you. Have you sought out IC for yourself to help you handle the emotional and physical betrayal from your spouse and your extended family ?


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Forgiveness was possible for me after we divorced and I moved on with my life 

Honestly it made it easier for me. That may not make sense but letting to of the anger has helped me to move forward. 

I forgave her, not to reconcile in any way, but for me to move forward with my life and because we have children to coparent. 

I have forgiven her but I do not want her back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> Aha!
> 
> We may as well stop discussing betrayal.
> 
> ...


Strange how a poster with eleven posts can be wrong eleven plus times.


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Some can forgive, some cannot. I think many of us forgive, but never forget. Here is an article I came across that says an affair is not forgivable;

***Infidelity is Not Okay and it is Not Forgivable!

Not sure how many have seen this, but it is another side of the story. One I think several on here ascribe to the points made in the article.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

Forgiving may not be possible, but rugsweeping is!


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Wow...then mr Adams...if you believe that article...we are in big trouble.


No, I did not say I agree, however, I do think it is the feeling of many on this board and does give a different perspective.

You know I have forgiven you. Forgiveness for infidelity is a very difficult thing to do. The writers of this article believe you cannot forgive infidelity. I know you can forgive, however, it takes time and love to do so and is still a risk. Each person has to weigh the risks and decide what is best for them.


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## daveca (Jan 14, 2014)

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....but in some instances ....as with my wife's ONS .....she admitted that she was so angry with me and our marriage conditions, that ..though she was probably not acting rationally, she probably wanted to hurt me by her actions.
> 
> .....I've had a real peach of a time trying to deal with THAT.


I can understand that, Hurtin_still. I have heard of the occasional woman having an affair strictly to get even with a husband who had an affair. In one case a woman said she didn't understand her actions as she never told her husband so she didn't cause him pain but she felt cheap and guilty after. 

That's why it's so important to see someone (counselor/therapist) and talk it out. Because of the emotional trauma people don't think rationally. 

I wish you all the best. I guess it's matter of taking it one day at a time.


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## daveca (Jan 14, 2014)

DeterminedToThrive said:


> I have a hard time buying this. I am a betrayed spouse, if there wasn't something done to me ... ahem, like ... being betrayed. Then why am I betrayed spouse? Of course something was done to you, just like it was done to me. They might never have thought about us at all during the A, but none the less it was done to us. We were betrayed by a loved one. That's what was done to us.
> 
> People stray in good and bad marriages. Straying has nothing to do with the marriage. It is a CHOICE to stray and making that choice is purely SELFISH. JMO


I agree it is selfish. To me, it's all about the motivation. In Hurtin_Still's case I can see coming to terms with the affair is much more difficult than if, say, the couple were separated due to the husband taking a job away from home for a few months and the wife became lonely and knew a friend and...In that case her motivation wasn't to hurt her husband.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> Some can forgive, some cannot. I think many of us forgive, but never forget. Here is an article I came across that says an affair is not forgivable;
> 
> ***Infidelity is Not Okay and it is Not Forgivable!
> 
> Not sure how many have seen this, but it is another side of the story. One I think several on here ascribe to the points made in the article.


I'll put this up here as it well worth it imo

_______

_Frankly, if we hear yet one more person talk about infidelity in a relationship as if it were okay, not a big deal, and forgivable, we are going to get angry!

We have studied the best marriages for more than 25 years and we know this – the best marriages would never engage in unfaithfulness – they would never engage in infidelity.

Here is the whole truth and nothing but the truth – being disloyal to the one you love is an unpardonable sin! Why would anyone who engages in this disloyal, dishonest, and morally reprehensible behavior think it is okay? To betray someone you purport to love is unconscionable. And as we often say, based on our years of research with successfully married couples, there is a “character element” to marriage and to violate the “code of conduct” in a marriage – to engage in the ultimate form of betrayal – is to destroy the core, the heart, of that relationship.

As you have noticed over the years, we are not angry people. But the notion that betrayal is acceptable or excusable gets us riled. Clearly, we are not unreasonable people. And the truth is, we know what makes marriages work. Being unfaithful to the one you love is not conducive to a wholesome, successful, and endearing relationship.

Here’s the deal – there are NO excuses for infidelity! There is no way to excuse infidelity. Being unfaithful to the one you love is the most unpardonable of all sins. To violate the “core of trust” in your marriage or loving relationship is, simply put, to destroy the relationship.

It is our considered opinion – based on many years of research – that the notion of character in marriage is real. To suggest otherwise is to ignore the basic tenets of successful relationships. We guess that it is time to say, “The buck stops here!” Literally translated – there are no excuses for disloyalty and infidelity to your spouse – to your lover.

Over the years, we have interviewed a lot of people who purported to be in love. We have interviewed a lot of couples that repeated the vows, “Until Death Do Us Part.” And these are not just words! To love someone for a lifetime does not occur by accident. To be in love is not an accident. To be in love is to do the simple things day in and day out of your relationship with the one you say you love. But trust us on this – you cannot betray the one you love and expect your marriage to survive and thrive.

It pains our heart to see couples espouse the virtues of the “Desperate Housewives” who think it’s okay to cheat on the one your love, and everything will be okay. It drives an arrow through our heart to think that there are people engaged in a loving relationship who think that betrayal is an offense for which there is forgiveness.

The ultimate betrayal of the one you say you love is an unrecoverable act! Writers, therapists, counselors, and psychologists who suggest otherwise are not only fooling themselves, they are misleading those they purport to represent.

Don’t be fooled and don’t be foolish. There is rarely EVER a recovery from a relationship that sinks to betrayal, infidelity, and disloyalty. Those who have been successfully married for years and years know this to be true. Don’t be misled by those who suggest otherwise.

The Simple Things Matter in love and marriage. Love well!

By Dr. Charles D. Schmitz and Dr. Elizabeth A. Schmitz
_


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## daveca (Jan 14, 2014)

Chris989 said:


> This is a great post apart from the bit between the start and the finish.
> 
> The spouse betrayed because they chose to. Your assertion that they 'lacked something from the relationship ' is entirely irrelevant.
> 
> You are not only wrong, but in being so you insult all betrayed spouses and exacerbate the problems by so egregiously mis representing the situation.




For those who think it's irrelevant I don't hold out much success for a reconciliation.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Re: Forgiveness*



johnAdams said:


> Some can forgive, some cannot. I think many of us forgive, but never forget. Here is an article I came across that says an affair is not forgivable;
> 
> ***Infidelity is Not Okay and it is Not Forgivable!
> 
> Not sure how many have seen this, but it is another side of the story. One I think several on here ascribe to the points made in the article.



....OK .....read the article. I suppose the authors are entitled to their opinions ....just as much as they are entitled to being pompous self-righteous know-it-all asses. 

......I've made a concerted effort to embrace the concept of true forgiveness toward my wife. Is it difficult? No. ......it's frikkin' excruciating .....painful ....tedious .....soul draining .....but ...it can be done. It can be done ....with a lot of work. But it's worth it if you gain back only a fraction of the sense of "inner calm" that you once possessed.

.....I agree 100% with JA .....you can forgive ....you will NEVER forget. That fact of life is what clouds the opinions of many who state that marital infidelity cannot be forgiven.


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## daveca (Jan 14, 2014)

Chris989 said:


> Aha!
> 
> We may as well stop discussing betrayal.
> 
> ...


Different thread topic, different response. And so there is no confusion I was referring to men having an affair. Men and women usually have affairs for different reasons. The majority of the time men have affairs for sex. That's why when an affair is discovered they usually want to remain with their wife. They seldom choose the other woman. There is little or no emotional attachment in the case of most men.

That thread was addressing why affairs happen. This thread is addressing how to deal with them. Surely you are able to differentiate.


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## daveca (Jan 14, 2014)

When I read articles like "Infidelity is Not Okay and it is Not Forgivable!" it's what's missing that's noticeable. Following is a short excerpt to which I’ll refer. 

(Excerpt) And as we often say, based on our years of research with successfully married couples, there is a “character element” to marriage and to violate the “code of conduct” in a marriage – to engage in the ultimate form of betrayal – is to destroy the core, the heart, of that relationship……There is no way to excuse infidelity. Being unfaithful to the one you love is the most unpardonable of all sins.

Writers, therapists, counselors, and psychologists who suggest otherwise are not only fooling themselves, they are misleading those they purport to represent. Don’t be fooled and don’t be foolish. There is rarely EVER a recovery from a relationship that sinks to betrayal, infidelity, and disloyalty.(End) 

Let’s look at a few words and phrases.
character element
code of conduct
betrayal
the core, the heart, of that relationship
infidelity
disloyalty

What do all those words/phrases represent? To what are all those words referring? Well, I think we all know. They all refer to sex. Sex is the heart and core of the relationship and having sex with someone else is the betrayal and the infidelity. The article is all about sex but unless I’ve overlooked it I don’t see that word mentioned once. Not once and that’s the disconnect. 

Ask someone what is the core of their marriage. The heart of their relationship. I have yet to hear anyone say, “Sex!” I’ve heard sex is a minor part of a marriage more times than I can remember. I’ve read more articles than I can recall saying marriage/relationships based on sex aren’t worth a damn. I’ve heard advice given to young people when marrying stating the last thing to consider is sex. It will just happen naturally. From education, upbringing and motivation to how the person dresses….those things are what’s important. Sex? Don’t be silly. That’s the last thing to consider even though it is, according to this article, the core, the heart of a marriage. 

As for the comment, “There is rarely EVER a recovery..” there never will be a recovery until both people realize the importance of sex. Whether it’s the husband working overtime and continuing to work at home bucking for that promotion and telling his wife to go to bed and he’ll be in much later or the wife being too tired or not in the mood both situations are a road map to an affair. 

As a society we’ve ridiculed and mocked sex. It’s always good for a joke but certainly not something to take seriously. It’s the “icing on the cake”. It’s the “extra” and anyone who thinks differently is a pervert or a pig. It’s something that happens when it happens but it certainly isn’t a priority or anything requiring much consideration……until an affair occurs. What was at the bottom of the “must do” list miraculously flies to the top. Over the top. Right off the sheet of paper. It becomes, as the article states, the core, the heart of the marriage. Everything, no exception, pales in comparison. 

Good provider, good housekeeper, good daddy, good mommy, good conversationalist…..nothing compares or mitigates when it comes to an affair. Nothing. All those so important things…the promotion, the church bizarre, taking the kids to hockey practice, cleaning the bathroom….all those things that were more important than sex seem so….so distant. So inconsequential. Why? 

Before anyone jumps all over this, yes, I realize some people just like a variety of partners and sex, to them, is like having lunch. But most people bond during sex. Most people feel a connection that’s difficult to put into words. I like to think of it as two souls or spirits meeting and while loneliness and neglect might drive someone to an affair the loneliness and neglect are sated through sex. 

So, to sum up, reconciliation is very possible contrary to what this article proposes and reconciliation involves sex. Yes, people are going to think about the affair every time they have sex just like we all remembered falling off the bicycle the following 10 times we got on it but after a while those thoughts fade and the bonding between the couple strengthen. In many cases couples have found the bond is even greater than before because they’ve come to realize the bonding that takes place during sex. It’s not just the touching of two bodies. It is the touching of two spirits or souls. 

The hugs. The caresses. The kisses. The baring of oneself to their partner, literally and figuratively, takes place. 

Reconciliation is quite doable.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Daveca:

Seriously, whatever you are on about it is incessant, potentially damaging, drivel.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Dr. Charles D. Schmitz and Dr. Elizabeth A. Schmitz*
> Frankly, if we hear yet one more person talk about infidelity in a relationship as if *it were okay, not a big deal,* and forgivable, we are going to get angry!


Who on this TAM forum that has been the recipient of infidelity says that
it is okay, not a big deal? 
The two doctors are not taking about everyone I know who has experienced infidelity






> By Dr. Charles D. Schmitz and Dr. Elizabeth A. Schmitz
> Here is the whole truth and nothing but the truth – being disloyal to the one you love is an unpardonable sin


*Now the two doctors are playing God!*
I realize that there are some that hold that position but others do not.
I do not think that the two doctors are qualified to speak for God or be the authority of the unpardonable sin.








> By Dr. Charles D. Schmitz and Dr. Elizabeth A. Schmitz
> It drives an arrow through our heart to think that there are people engaged in a loving relationship who think that betrayal is an offense for which there is forgiveness.



The two doctors have been married for 42 years and have not divorced. According to their firm belief infidelity is the unpardonable sin so apparently, since they have been married 42 years and not divorced, they have never experienced infidelity.

*I have my own way of thinking and that is that I do not put a lot of confidence in someone who tells me about a very serious situation but has never been involved in that situation*. IOW, I m not going to have a heart operation by a doctor that has never been involved in heart surgery; I do not care how much education and theory they have.



*These two doctors are basically saying that Mr. Adams, Philat, myself and others are liars.* We all have experienced infidelity and it is not the unpardonable sin to us. As far as ACTUAL experience (not theory) Philat has over 7 years, I have over 26 years, and Mr. Adams has over 30 years. I put more confidence in people that have actually been through infidelity than two doctors that have a theory and never experienced infidelity.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Forgiveness means that you pledge to give up any anger or resentment caused by the act you forgive. It is wiping the slate clean and moving on. It doesn’t me you forget. It doesn’t mean it no longer hurts. It doesn’t mean you don’t take steps to not let it happen again. It means you have let it go so that it no longer causes emotions which you hold against the person or act you have forgiven.

For me to get rid of the anger and resentment I do two things. First, I work on myself and get myself in a good attitude by doing things to enrich myself. Second, I seek some solitude to reflect on the situation in a particular way. I put myself in their shoes and figure out why they did what was done. I relate it to other behaviors of theirs that I know and seek to understand it from their point of view. This doesn't mean I agree with it, it just means I establish the logical or emotional connects they may have gone through. That way I see it as part of their personality and can think of it dispassionately and categorize it.

Once I see it as a trait, mistake or whatever I can determine if I am ready to forgive. Usually I can but not always. With some people I can forgive but if I see it as a trait I will disassociate myself from them. With others with whom I think it is a mistake I may forgive and continue the relationship as it was. 

I don't think it is necessary to forgive. I just think it is better to remove the poison of it from you if you can.

Another member KathyBatesel has a similar though subtly different view:


KathyBatesel said:


> I had a counselor who changed my life when she said that forgiveness is not something I could do, that TRUE forgiveness cannot exist until all the energy surrounding an event is gone. I had to ponder this a lot. She actually used infidelity as an example, which didn't really apply to my situation, but she'd gotten me thinking. In the many years since then, I have never found her wisdom to be wrong, but it flies in the face of Christian thinking.


This is just a snippet from her post which can be found at:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...ck-haunt-me-25-years-later-6.html#post1456370

It is good that you are thinking about what forgiveness is because this can come back to hurt you later if you just submerge your feelings rather than dealing with them. I think it would benefit you to read the entire thread above because the OP thought she had forgiven her husband for the affair only to find out 25 years later that the issues needed to be dealt with again more properly. 

I personally found the book Unbroken by Laura Hillenbrand of great help with learning what not forgiving can do and what forgiveness means. I highly recommend it.

Unbroken: A World War II Story of Survival, Resilience, and Redemption: Laura Hillenbrand: 9781400064168: Amazon.com: Books


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

I found it interesting also that a couple of PHD Marriage Counselors felt that infidelity was unforgivable. A quote from their article:

*There is rarely EVER a recovery from a relationship that sinks to betrayal, infidelity, and disloyalty. 
*

Rarely means it does happen. It is just not common or everyday. There are many on here who have forgiven their spouse and moved on after infidelity. It is difficult to know the real stats of how many couples can reconcile. But, there are enough examples on here to know it is possible. 



meson said:


> I personally found the book Unbroken by Laura Hillenbrand of great help with learning what not forgiving can do and what forgiveness means. I highly recommend it.
> 
> Unbroken: A World War II Story of Survival, Resilience, and Redemption: Laura Hillenbrand: 9781400064168: Amazon.com: Books


This is an excellent book. Really an example of overcoming what seems to be impossible odds and forgiving your enemy.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Who on this TAM forum that has been the recipient of infidelity says that it is okay, not a big deal?
> The two doctors are not taking about everyone I know who has experienced infidelity
> 
> No but almost everybody
> ...


No they are NOT saying you are liars 

NO THEY A R E NNN OOO TTT

N O .....Is that clear Blunt?

I'm doing this before you go into a ten page insane multicoloured theorem on the subject

no they are not 

The facts are that 17 out of 20 people do agree with them 
Most people would agree with them - it IS an unpardonable sin
Sure a few in the minority such as the people you've mentined will not . That does not make you liars unless you particularly feel you are 

Trouble is with some of the waywards (and re conciliators trying to defend their waywards) on here is that unfortunately you WILL get tarnished with the 'black' brush. That is the fault of all the thousands of other waywards that have treated the betrayed like sh!t, trickled them, gaslighted them, destroyed their families, tried reconciliations that were full of even more trickles, lies, treachery and betrayal and so that leaves a few of you just a few who are obviously *not* to be thrown into the same den as them 

Unfortunately because of your initial infidelities you will, and have accept, that you often will be thrown into the same den

....that's the price the wayward or their betrayed spouses trying to defend them, ultimately pays


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

johnAdams said:


> I found it interesting also that a couple of PHD Marriage Counselors felt that infidelity was unforgivable. A quote from their article:
> 
> *There is rarely EVER a recovery from a relationship that sinks to betrayal, infidelity, and disloyalty.
> *
> ...


I suspect they were engaging in a bully pulpit session to encourage people not to take infidelity lightly. There was no science to back it up. By definition the best marriages are unlikely to involve infidelity. My parents have been married over 50 years and renewed their vows but yet their marriage suffered from infidelity. The article claims this couldn't be. 

In addition to yourself and the others mentioned in this thread are Hope1964 and SomedayDig who successfully recovered their marriages after infidelity. I wouldn't worry about the opinions of those two misinformed therapists.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

daveca said:


> When I read articles like "Infidelity is Not Okay and it is Not Forgivable!" it's what's missing that's noticeable. Following is a short excerpt to which I’ll refer.
> 
> (Excerpt) And as we often say, based on our years of research with successfully married couples, there is a “character element” to marriage and to violate the “code of conduct” in a marriage – to engage in the ultimate form of betrayal – is to destroy the core, the heart, of that relationship……There is no way to excuse infidelity. Being unfaithful to the one you love is the most unpardonable of all sins.
> 
> ...


daveca:

I think you're wrong again, on this post. But the good news is that being wrong IS most defintely forgivable. so dont worry 

also I just want to mention that the other post of yours that Chris linked to has a very nice story about your relationship with your wife. it sounds to me like you and her have it almost exactly right - where sex and love are concepts seemingly inseparable.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

May I add my two cents worth?

First off, OP, what you are feeling is normal. I know exactly where you are coming from as I have struggled for almost 3 years with many of the same emotions. Unfortunately, my FWS took a year and a half to fully break off all non-physical contact with his AP and at that time I was informed by OW that H had revealed to her that he cheated on me 21 years prior. So I would say we were in false R up to that time. 

Please link on my forum name and go to my stats to see all the threads I started to read my full story and you'll see how similar a lot of our feelings are.

But to the topic at hand: Forgiveness.

You forgive not for them but for you.

You examine your past assumptions and expectations and perhaps realize that what you believed about marriage may have been based on romantic falderal. I finally realized that marriage and vows don't guarantee fidelity, happiness, and fulfillment. Assuming that leads to complacency...which leads to not tending to the marriage which takes a lot of hard work.

Like the analogy of the empty box, marriage is NOT a box brimming with all these gifts, but is actually empty, waiting for you and spouse to put love, attention, protection, respect, sexual fulfillment, whatever, into it. When I realized that, I realized how neither I or my spouse had contributed to filling the empty box.

That does NOT condone the infidelity. That was the poor choice, the poor character of the WS who absolutely had a serious moral failing at that time...the infidelity was not about YOU, your inadequacy, your appearance, etc but about adulterer’s failings, their issues....no matter what they tell you. Period.

People are human, they can fail in small ways and in huge ways. I failed/ he failed but as long as remorse and responsibility are expressed and a dedication to becoming a better person is attempted sincerely, people can redefine themselves and should be given that chance. Honest communication is a must to enable each other to try to meet the needs of the other.

No one person or state(marriage, social standing, job, material possessions, for example) can be the source of your happiness, only you can find within your authentic self the happiness that fulfills...and when you finally seek within yourself, nothing, no matter how miserable, can really take that away from you. 
The path to forgiveness requires an intense struggle between the allure of and addiction to self-inflicted pain and the mental exercises we should be doing for reconciliation that don't reward us so readily. Continually replaying the details of the infidelity and the character defects of the WS over and over in our mind only tears the wound open again and again and solidifies them as our default thinking. It is incredibly difficult to respond with kindness and compassion but that is exactly what strengthens our own character and plants the seed that may grow to full reconciliation and forgiveness. Act like you love even if you don’t feel it and love will follow is the theory. My counselor asked me once if I felt I deserved the pain I played over and over, which led to some very deep introspection for me and a realization that no matter what I had done in the past, I did not need to punish myself with the current pain only I was creating…no thought leaves the mind of the thinker.

If you only define your WS by his betrayal and failure, that is what he will become in totality to you. Ponder also his good points, why you fell in love, how he is redeeming himself now. We all deserve to be judged on the merits of our total character, not just the failings and offenses. 

I went through a period of intense anger towards my FWH, too and I believe it was at that point my self esteem returned, thus the anger at what he had done, how he disrespected me. It was very difficult not to make our lives hell but I usually tried to channel the anger into sessions of communication where I expressed how humiliated and valueless he made me feel. I also channeled the anger through exercise, artistic creation and journaling. I learned to face the negative emotions I felt: anger, humiliation, revenge, hold them in my awareness and then visualize them dwindling away like smoke in the sky…

Have patience! Regaining trust, respect and forgiveness takes years! It’s a process, not an epiphany. Peel the layers of the hurt away little by little: he makes a small gesture of sincere love or remorse and you reciprocate in kind and acknowledge his effort. The WS’s ability and willingness to answer questions is a great indicator of their resolve to make amends. Discern very carefully whether your holding on to the anger is beneficial for your healing or based on a need to punish or place yourself on a higher moral ground. Realize you will have days of misery, followed by days of optimism, days where a trigger will overwhelm you and days when you can recognize a trigger for what it is, a default reaction to a past pain or memory which you can erase by ignoring or rewrite with a new mental association. Please check out the book Mindsight by Dr. Dan Siegel for more information.

Of course, all this assumes your WS is sincere, transparent, honest, remorseful, actively seeking to make amends, etc. If any of this is missing, and you are not yet feeling safe, you are just treading water and not moving forward in your healing. Only you can determine how long you can endure that state before you make a decision to leave the marriage to heal yourself or stay in a marriage that offers no more honesty and fulfillment than the adulterous situation your WS chose; only now you get to choose your path.

Good luck and God’s grace.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Quote of Headspin*
> No they are NOT saying you are liars
> 
> NO THEY A R E NNN OOO TTT
> ...



*Headspin, chill out a bit!!*

*I am going to use some softer colors in this reply in hopes that they will soooth you a bit. I was going to use yellow (mellow yellow, remember Donovan’s song?) but it would not show up on this forum.*





*Quote of Headspin*
The facts are that 17 out of 20 people do agree with them 
most people would agree with them - it IS an unpardonable sin


You may be right Headspin most people would agree with them but that does not make it an unpardonable sin whereby forgiveness cannot occur and help heal.

As for the two doctors, with no personal experience in infidelity, making dramatic statements, there could be another reason for their proclamations. Headspin you said that 17 out of 20 people agree with them that may be close to accurate. If I were the doctors and wanted to sell my books and other products I sure would think about making dramatic statements that 17 out of 20 people agree with. Why?, because they would be a majority that would potentially buy my books and products.


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## Hemingway (Jul 19, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> *Headspin, chill out a bit!!*
> 
> *I am going to use some softer colors in this reply in hopes that they will soooth you a bit. I was going to use yellow (mellow yellow, remember Donovan’s song?) but it would not show up on this forum.*[/COLOR
> 
> ...




Different rules for different folks. You might be extremely fine with pardoning infidelity and that is okay. Others might not be, and even that is okay.

Reconciliation might be possible, but it is hard to bring back what is lost in the relationship. But there are folks who claim their relationship became stronger after infidelity, because they became honest for the first time. So yeah, it all depends.


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## daveca (Jan 14, 2014)

Chris989 said:


> Daveca:
> 
> Seriously, whatever you are on about it is incessant, potentially damaging, drivel.



The only damaging drivel is making an affair out to be something so horrible done by a partner so evil that a marriage is irreparable. Those who are so quick to advise people to throw away 10 or 20 years of their life and destroy a family through divorce are bitter, vindictive people.


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## daveca (Jan 14, 2014)

Mr Blunt said:


> Who on this TAM forum that has been the recipient of infidelity says that
> it is okay, not a big deal?
> The two doctors are not taking about everyone I know who has experienced infidelity
> 
> ...


Excellent post, Mr. Blunt. From what I've witnessed a divorce immediately following an affair has resulted in more hardship and heartache than the affair itself. Of course, the person who initiated the divorce blames it all on the affair and not on their own actions. 

If life is so much better after a divorce, if the majority of people really did move on to bigger and better things, if they did find the perfect partner everyone claims is waiting for them then they would be happy the affair occurred. It would be viewed as a blessing in disguise but I have yet to hear anyone describe it that way. 

It's refreshing to read a post from a logical, mature individual. Congratulations to you and your wife.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

daveca said:


> Excellent post, Mr. Blunt. From what I've witnessed a divorce immediately following an affair has resulted in more hardship and heartache than the affair itself. *Of course, the person who initiated the divorce blames it all on the affair and not on their own actions.*


Oh and what actions might they be then? So they don't get divorced because of an affair they get divorced because .............!?? 



daveca said:


> If life is so much better after a divorce, if the majority of people really did move on to bigger and better things, if they did find the perfect partner everyone claims is waiting for them then they would be happy the affair occurred. It would be viewed as a blessing in disguise but I have yet to hear anyone describe it that way.


Your planet is? ! what one have you been living on then ? many divorce and are happier not only with somebody else but being out and away from the hatchet job that a cheating treacherous wayward spouse becomes.

Yep the world is littered with people that got shat upon by wayward cheating spouses and then once divorced ensued, the betrayed spouse sat around crying " if only I would have stayed with them!? ......for more of the same" , Oh how I love and miss being cheated on my kids being cheated on and the posom /w other family being shat on too !! I really really regret not staying with somebody that just ripped all our lives to shreds 

Come on tell me you've got to be on a wind up - I'm beginning to suspect you may live under a bridge :scratchhead:


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## daveca (Jan 14, 2014)

Headspin said:


> Oh and what actions might they be then? So they don't get divorced because of an affair they get divorced because .............!??


Perhaps I wasn't clear. The problems that arise from divorcing are blamed on the affair but it was the divorce that caused the additional problems.

For example, financial problems. They arise due to the divorce, not due to the affair. 

The person who has majority custody is now faced with doing everything for the children as opposed to it being shared. A simple thing like grocery shopping. Before the divorce a person could jump in the car and go to the store. Now they have to bring the children with them as there's no one at home to look after them for an hour or two. 

The work load is increased and the money decreased. Naturally, the person is going to be unhappy. The point is they didn't have to divorce. 




> Your planet is? ! what one have you been living on then ? many divorce and are happier not only with somebody else but being out and away from the hatchet job that a cheating treacherous wayward spouse becomes.
> 
> Yep the world is littered with people that got shat upon by wayward cheating spouses and then once divorced ensued, the betrayed spouse sat around crying " if only I would have stayed with them!? ......for more of the same" , Oh how I love and miss being cheated on my kids being cheated on and the posom /w other family being shat on too !! I really really regret not staying with somebody that just ripped all our lives to shreds
> 
> Come on tell me you've got to be on a wind up - I'm beginning to suspect you may live under a bridge :scratchhead:


In many cases the person felt the marriage was fine. We frequently read they had no idea an affair was occurring. They thought everything was OK so I don't know where you get "if only I would have stayed with them!? ......for more of the same". Unless you're referring to more of the same good times they've known for 10 or 20 years. Of course, if the marriage wasn't good to begin with then an affair is the perfect excuse to get out. 

Have you noticed people tend to feel their spouse was trying to "get the better of" them? Trying to outdo them. Trying to deliberately hurt them. It's like there was a contest going on or a battle of wills long before an affair occurred. Otherwise, one would not think like that. 

People (men) seldom have affairs to deliberately hurt their spouse. They don't think to themselves, "I'll show her! I'll teach her a lesson" but that's how it's often seen or interpreted. 

"How could you do that TO me?" The purpose or goal or reason for an affair seldom has anything to do with wanting to do something to one's spouse. That is the first thing that has to be understood. 

As for finding a better man how many better men were there when they married? Better? Maybe the new guy won't have an affair but who can guarantee that? But besides that what is the guy like when it comes to all the other things that make a good marriage? What about all the things the wife enjoyed with/about her husband for the last 10+ years? 

People talk about a marriage never being the same after a divorce. What changes do they think they'll go through with a completely new man? 

If the marriage was stale and boring or, worse, irritating and stressful, then opt for a divorce. But if the partner was happy in the marriage what are the chances they will find someone similar or a similar situation? 

Those who claim they are happier after a divorce must have been unhappy in the marriage. What else makes sense?


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

daveca said:


> Perhaps I wasn't clear. The problems that arise from divorcing are blamed on the affair but it was the divorce that caused the additional problems.
> 
> For example, financial problems. They arise due to the divorce, not due to the affair.
> 
> ...


Let us accept your conceit that you have one partner happy and unknowing and another partner unhappy and untelling. It is total nonsense; but let us accept it nonetheless.

If the unhappy untelling partner then goes on to cheat then this is because they are a liar. It is because they did not tell the other partner they were so unhappy as to feel able to cheat.

Of course, there are people whom, no matter how "unhappy", would not cheat - because cheating is wrong.

Moving on with the central conceit, however, we have an unhappy partner who is already lying. They then "fix" the problem by lying further.

You see how it works? The "happy" partner has no chance because of who they are with - NOT because of who they are.

If they had been with somebody that was not a self satisfied, smug, self justifying cheat, then the other partner would have given them a headsup: "Hey, You know how you think we're happy - we're not. I'm going to have an affair because I just deserve it ya know, but you can always fix things because I deserve this and if you do maybe I won't cheat. lol."

Daveca, your opinions are wrong. They are damaging because your opinions rely on non sequiturs, conceits, and LIES. Just as cheaters do.

So the "happy" partner - the one that was cheated on by the "unhappy" "victim" moves onto another relationship, but this time with somebody honest.

Next time none of this happens because the other partner is not a liar. Simples.


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## ballygirl1971 (Nov 20, 2012)

from day and we're trying to R. I read a lot here but don't post often. The last couple of weeks my anger about his A seems to have resurfaced with a vengeance. For a long time I was equally angry at the xOW and my WS but over time my anger at the xOW has diminished and both barrels, so to speak, are now aimed directly at my WS. I realize my anger is part of this nasty roller coaster but it has brought the issue of forgiveness to the forefront. 

I'm a huge grudge holder, always have been. I'm not even sure what it means to forgive or really how to do it. My dad was the same way and he went to his grave 2.5 years ago with no end to the cold, stone wall of his silent treatment he'd given me for 2 years prior to his death. I can say I had truly given up on ever again having a relationship with my dad about 5 months before he died. I always knew whether or not my dad was angry with someone by whether or not he was willing to contact them on a birthday or major holiday. Weird, I know. When there was no word from him on my 40th birthday a few years back, I had this sense of finality and that he would never forgive me for a conversation we'd had in 2009 that did not end well. He died five months after my 40th birthday in 2011.

Dad left this world with me holding his hand but by then he was brain dead and had only been removed from life support 30 minutes prior. We never had a conversation again after 2009. He couldn't, or wouldn't, forgive me and I eventually gave up trying. My dad would not respond to me by phone, in person, or even mail. Not even to tell me to 'F' off. I reached out many times and the response was crickets.

I digress.....in my current situation I see many facets of the lack of forgiveness (me) and giving up (WS). I had a meltdown about the affair yesterday and an even bigger one today. I realized today that I'm sure I've never really forgiven anyone for any transgression, big or small. 

If I feel wronged by someone important to me I either keep them at arms length emotionally or if possible, I cut them out of my life. I avoid emotional intimacy with everyone and long ago pushed the close friends I once had out of my life. I know, I sound like a real peach.....ugh.

I want to reconcile with WS but I really don't know what forgiveness looks like or even how to start. I'm not trying to be dumb, I really don't know how to start or even what it looks like to forgive anyone. I've looked up forgiveness on the internet and have tried to understand it but I can't make the concept make sense in my own head. 

I understand people make bad decisions, mistakes, etc. I'm not perfect nor is anyone else. However, I keep going back to adultery being a choice and not an oops/mistake, it's something that has to be schemed and plotted out. No one trips over their D into someone else's V..... oopsie. Yah, doesn't work like that. 

My therapist asked me to define what forgiveness means to me and the first thing that popped into my head was putting oneself in the position of being vulnerable to someone who had already proven they are willing to cut you to the core. But isn't that what marriage is all about? The willingness and the ability to be vulnerable with the one you should be the closest to? It's clear that in large part I view relationships as a power struggle and that can't be anything but f'ed up in the worst way - on my part.

Perhaps I should just let WS go because maybe I'M too f'ed up to be with anyone. H*ll, I'm a mom of three grown kids and a college educated professional and I have to go to the friggin internet to figure out forgiveness....and it still doesn't make sense! 

Please don't blast me, I know I've rambled. I've had a really s*itty time of it lately and just trying to figure out how to forgive with no prior experience. Help....[/QUOTE]


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Headspin, for some reason ballygirl1971 just quoted the whole of the OP's first post without the /quote tag and added nothing.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> Headspin, for some reason ballygirl1971 just quoted the whole of the OP's first post without the /quote tag and added nothing.


Yes you're right it did sound familiar when I posted but no point in repeating what I said earlier so I've deleted it

I should pay more attention !


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