# Thoughts on homeschooling?



## september_sky

Hey everyone. So, my husband and I have 3 boys. The oldest will be turning 4 years old in June, and the other two are 10.5 month old twins. I had always planned on putting our children in public school, but recently my husband brought up the idea of homeschooling. Someone he works with homeschools their kids and says it only takes 2-3 hours a day. I don't have a very positive outlook on homeschooling, probably because I was homeschooled myself from 8th to 11th grade. There were some advantages. For example, I did start doing better academically, probably because I didn't have as many distractions. But, I feel like the negatives outweighed the positives. I have 3 siblings and none of them were ever homeschooled except for me. Basically, my parents homeschooled me because I was best friends with a girl who came from a sort of troubled home and she had a bad reputation. I wasn't doing too well in school and they felt she was a bad influence. So, homeschooling me was their way of getting me away from her. I think the last straw for them was when my friend wanted to introduce me to a guy that she knew. This guy just so happened to be friends with my neighbor. So, one afternoon, the guy decides to go visit my neighbor and hang out. My friend told me that he was going to be over there and that he was planning to stop by and introduce himself to me after he left my neighbor's house. So, I sat on my front porch and waited for him to leave my neighbor's house. He stopped his card in the road in front of my house and motioned for me to come over. I walked down and stood a few feet away from his car, and we talked for maybe 20 or so minutes. He never got out of his car, and I never got into his car. Eventually, my parents looked out the window and saw me talking to him, and stared me down until I told him I better go back inside. 

When I came in, they were having a full blown meltdown. In my eyes, I didnt feel I had done anything wrong. We were just talking. Apparently, they were highly disturbed over the fact that he was 16 and I was 13 at the time, but the thing they seemed to be even more bothered by was the fact that he was black (I'm white). After this incident, they homeschooled me starting the following school year, and they immediately took away all form of communication from me. They took the phone out of my room, I wasn't allowed to get on the computer, they wouldn't even leave me at home alone for a while because they were afraid I'd have the guy come over while they were gone. And if they did leave me home alone. they'd hide the house phone from me to make sure that I couldn't call him. In my opinion, I feel they went really extreme. It was like this for a year. Finally, after a year went by, they slowly started giving things back to me like letting me use the phone again (though I still wasn't allowed to talk to my best friend that I mentioned above). But it had been so long since I'd talk to my other friends, when I finally did get to talk to them, it was just kind of awkward and we didnt really have as much in common anymore because I was being homeschooled and they were still in regular school. I know they say homeschooled kids can have get-togethers with other homeschooled kids to help with the social aspect of homeschooling, but my parents never had me involved in anything like this. For the 4 years that I was homeschooled, I had no friendships and essentially no interaction with other kids my age. By my senior year of high school, my parents agreed to let me drop homeschooling and finish my last year of high school at my old school. When I went to school for that last year, I had basically no social skills at all. I never talked to anyone. It was torturous anytime we had to work as a group or have any interaction with other classmates. If we had to speak in front of the class, I'd usually just take a zero rather than do that. I feel I'm naturally more introverted and I think being in isolation for years only made me even more withdrawn. I say all of this to hopefully give you an accurate idea of WHY I have negative feelings towards homeschooling. My parents have always tried very hard to shelter me, and they've always been very overprotective. When I think of parents who homeschool, this is automatically what my mind goes to. I think of sheltering, overprotective, overly worrisome parents. Thankfully, although I still do have social anxiety, it has gotten better over the years. But, it has taken a long time to even get to the point where I'm at now, and I can't help but to think that homeschooling for so long played a part in that.

My biggest concern about homeschooling is the social aspect of it. Even if you do get your kid involved in gatherings with other homeschooled children, I just don't feel it's the same. I think children should be exposed to diverse groups of other children. I think they should be exposed to children of different backgrounds, races, religions, etc. not just other homeschooled children. Because once your child grows up and gets a job and starts to get a taste of the real world, they're going to see that the world is full of different people with different backgrounds and beliefs. I feel like a public school would offer the most diversity. I want to teach my kids that it's ok for people to be different. It doesn't mean they have to agree with everyone else's views but they should be able to respect and tolerate differing views. I'm just curious what your thoughts/ experiences are when it comes to homeschooling.


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## jlg07

First, I think your parents had every right to be worried about a 16 year old sniffing around their 13y.o. daughter. That is just wrong. They may however have been a bit extreme in their reaction!
Second, YOU have already given yourself the answer about social situations. YOU have to make sure that they are socialized in a regular fashion. Just because YOUR parents didn't do that (they particularly wanted to NOT have you socialize) doesn't mean that you shouldn't homeschool --- just make sure you do it correctly with all of these concerns.


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## red oak

I know several who were home schooled and do perfectly well. They never even saw the inside of a school.

School doesn't create social skills. Interactions with mature people do.

Perhaps it wasn't your lack of social skills as it was the immaturity of classmates.

Diverse groups of children? Schools are segregated by age intentionally. That doesn't help them learn social skills. It creates an age related group clique.

My brother was home schooled as well and can be great with people as long as they show emotional and mental maturity, and can carry on a decent conversation.


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## OnTheFly

Two of my sisters home schooled. All the children are now perfectly functional young adults.


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## Cynthia

I homeschooled my three children all the way through. None of them are socially awkward.

Homeschooling little ones can be really fun, but as they get older there is a lot more work involved. I spent way more than 3 hours a day once they were older, but when they are in K-3, it really does only take about 2 hours a day to do an excellent job, depending upon the curriculum you choose.

If you want them involved with other people, then you have to find ways to get them out in social situations. I actually wrote an article on this some time back, so I'll link that here: How Homeschoolers Make Friends | The Feminine Review: Homemaking, Family and the World


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## Blondilocks

My sis had twin boys. They did better when in separate classrooms as they were very competitive and disruptive when together. I tutored them in reading when they were in grammar school and had to do it separately as they were just a nightmare to work with together. Maybe wait and see how they interact with one another before deciding.

You also have to consider how isolating this can be for you. It would be very difficult to further your education or take a job because of the homeschooling.


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## personofinterest

I think if a parents isn't qualified to teach, they shouldn't teach their children. It may protect them from Harry Potter, but they probably won't get a great education.


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## ecoylisa

A lot of my cousins are homeschooled and the difference between my sisters and me and them is very evident. They are more interdisciplinary and critical in their thinking. I also think that more and more parents are tending toward home schooling. I hope you do choose to homeschool your children. Hope you break some outdated and conventional :rules:


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## SunCMars

There are so many variables at play it is mind boggling.
Welcome to daily life.

I think your parents saved you from a life of misery.

Yet, you only see the downsides.

You missed out on any social life because you were home schooled.
Nope, you missed out on getting pregnant at fourteen, getting on drugs at eighteen.

Maybe, hopefully finding yourself at thirty. Two or three pregnancies, a bakers dozen worth of boys and men later.

With no husband, no education, no prospects except winning the lottery or maybe God putting a good man in your path AND you recognizing his worth.

You are off to a good start. Start being appreciative.

Sorry, uh, er, I got carried away. I too, had a tough life.
I am projecting.





[THM]- Lilith

I get this sense from reading your posts.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Home schooling can be a great choice if parents are willing and capable of carrying out.

Many positive aspects. 

It is good for a child to get socialization with other kids too, as they grow so that is a box to also get checked.

There are many more programs today than 10 yrs even ago, where a child can be homeschooled and still participate in public school after school activities and sports if desired.

There are challenges in all things worth doing. Bear in mind it's a long term commitment. 

Nothing wrong with homeschooling. I know many young adults I've seen homeschooled all their lives, worked great for them. 

Grandson #1 seems like he'll be homeschooled. That came up last weekend actually. My son, his W are more than willing and capable so if it goes that way, that's great.


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## NobodySpecial

personofinterest said:


> I think if a parents isn't qualified to teach, they shouldn't teach their children. It may protect them from Harry Potter, but they probably won't get a great education.


This is actually nonsense. Everything from purchasing full school at home to unschooling can yield pretty terrific academic results.


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## personofinterest

NobodySpecial said:


> This is actually nonsense. Everything from purchasing full school at home to unschooling can yield pretty terrific academic results.


I didn't mean they need a teaching degree. You can be an effective teacher of your children without that for sure.

However, when I taught in another state, all you needed to homeschool your children up through 12th grade was a GED. I'm sorry, packaged products or not, if you cannot help your child learn, you cannot teach your child.


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## NobodySpecial

personofinterest said:


> I didn't mean they need a teaching degree. You can be an effective teacher of your children without that for sure.
> 
> However, when I taught in another state, all you needed to homeschool your children up through 12th grade was a GED. I'm sorry, packaged products or not, if you cannot help your child learn, you cannot teach your child.


There are many routes to learning. Many an unschooler never sought to teach their kids in the way that classrooms think of it. With great success.


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## Yeswecan

If social situations concern you there are always groups like the Boy/Girl Scouts, softball/baseball teams that are not school related. Church and outreach programs.


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## SunCMars

personofinterest said:


> I didn't mean they need a teaching degree. You can be an effective teacher of your children without that for sure.
> 
> However, when I taught in another state, all you needed to homeschool your children up through 12th grade was a GED. I'm sorry, packaged products or not, if you cannot help your child learn, you cannot teach your child.


Then again...

Always evident, these 'then agains'..

Look at today's youth, the ones just recently 'graduated' from public schools.

They cannot do simple math, cannot place their state [or any place] on a map or globe, one having no names. They do not know their congressman, their vice president.
They do not know what socialism is, or is not.
They cannot spell, let alone write a coherent sentence.

Capitalism is bad? Socialism is good?
Why? Dunno.

Usually, just more talking points heard, swallowed whole, rarely chewed, then spewed out.
Pretty parrots, the lot of them.

Pretty rebellious, this is common thread-ery. Par for the new course, the one not learned. 

Note: I was never there, at that spot, at that age.
Why? Dunno, just damnable luck, I suppose.
But, I was near...close enough.

Ah, but they are graduated.
Amen!

Of course, some can, and some can do, very so, merry-berry well. 
But, then too, many cannot. Et tu? Ah!

Whose 'fault' is that?

Parents, society, both?


How can they be educated?

They were let loose from their structured pasture on a horse with no name, no identity, no sense of themselves, of life's real competition, of the world and politics.

Agh!
Ugh!





[THM]- SCM


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## 3Xnocharm

Personally I feel like homeschooling should only be done as last resort, such as the child having serious problems at the school, horrible school district, high crime area, etc. Just my .02 cents.


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## personofinterest

I'll bow out since I am not interested in the "public school are evil indoctrination centers" narrative. With nearly 2 decades of teaching under my belt, I call BS


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## red oak

SunCMars said:


> Then again...
> 
> Always evident, these 'then agains'..
> 
> Look at today's youth, the ones just recently 'graduated' from public schools.
> 
> They cannot do simple math, cannot place their state [or any place] on a map or globe, one having no names. They do not know their congressman, their vice president.
> They do not know what socialism is, or is not.
> They cannot spell, let alone write a coherent sentence.
> 
> Capitalism is bad? Socialism is good?
> Why? Dunno.
> 
> Usually, just more talking points heard, swallowed whole, rarely chewed, then spewed out.
> Pretty parrots, the lot of them.
> 
> Pretty rebellious, this is common thread-ery. Par for the new course, the one not learned.
> 
> Note: I was never there, at that spot, at that age.
> Why? Dunno, just damnable luck, I suppose.
> But, I was near...close enough.
> 
> Ah, but they are graduated.
> Amen!
> 
> Of course, some can, and some can do, very so, merry-berry well.
> But, then too, many cannot. Et tu? Ah!
> 
> Whose 'fault' is that?
> 
> Parents, society, both?
> 
> 
> How can they be educated?
> 
> They were let loose from their structured pasture on a horse with no name, no identity, no sense of themselves, of life's real competition, of the world and politics.
> 
> Agh!
> Ugh!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [THM]- SCM



I did an impromptu poll a few years ago of high school graduates and only one out 20 could name more than freedom of speech and a couple asked what the bill of rights was.

:|

Cant count back money, read a standard clock.
Most said their history only went back to civil war. 
Newer ones to ww1.


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## september_sky

Blondilocks said:


> My sis had twin boys. They did better when in separate classrooms as they were very competitive and disruptive when together. I tutored them in reading when they were in grammar school and had to do it separately as they were just a nightmare to work with together. Maybe wait and see how they interact with one another before deciding.
> 
> You also have to consider how isolating this can be for you. It would be very difficult to further your education or take a job because of the homeschooling.


That’s my other concern. I’m assuming my husband’s coworker’s wife is probably a stay at home mom. I currently am a stay at home mom but I’m planning to go back to school this Fall to get my associates degree in Medical Laboratory Technology. So, I’m planning on being in school for the next two years, and then I’m planning to work as soon as I get done. This fall, I’ll be in school 4 days a week, Tue-Fri, for about 18 hours a week. I would be in school for longer hours but I’ve already gotten several of the general Ed. classes out of the way, so that helped. Still, I feel like being in school for 18 hours a week on top of trying to homeschool the kids wouldn’t be very realistic for me. If I ever did do it, I wouldn’t want to make the mistake my parents did by not ever getting me involved in social events. I feel like in a regular school setting, you naturally have to be in more social situations. With homeschooling, it wouldn’t just be about the school work. It would take a lot of extra effort on my part to make sure they’re getting the socialization that they need. I just don’t think it’d be able to do that very efficiently while trying to go to school/work myself.

I was a stay at home mom with our oldest son and then I started taking some college classes when he was about 2 years old. Shortly after, I found out I was pregnant with the twins so I took a break from school. Now that they’re almost a year old and our oldest will be starting pre school this fall, I feel like I could handle being back in school. Being a stay at home mom is a privilege and I have loved being the main caregiver for my kids but it also has its downsides, such as feeling isolated like you mentioned.


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## september_sky

personofinterest said:


> I think if a parents isn't qualified to teach, they shouldn't teach their children. It may protect them from Harry Potter, but they probably won't get a great education.





SunCMars said:


> There are so many variables at play it is mind boggling.
> Welcome to daily life.
> 
> I think your parents saved you from a life of misery.
> 
> Yet, you only see the downsides.
> 
> You missed out on any social life because you were home schooled.
> Nope, you missed out on getting pregnant at fourteen, getting on drugs at eighteen.
> 
> Maybe, hopefully finding yourself at thirty. Two or three pregnancies, a bakers dozen worth of boys and men later.
> 
> With no husband, no education, no prospects except winning the lottery or maybe God putting a good man in your path AND you recognizing his worth.
> 
> You are off to a good start. Start being appreciative.
> 
> Sorry, uh, er, I got carried away. I too, had a tough life.
> I am projecting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [THM]- Lilith
> 
> I get this sense from reading your posts.


Yea, it does sound like you’re projecting a little. I feel like I’m where I’m at in life right now because of my choices. I moved out at 18 to be with my now husband, which they didn’t want me to do. I did it anyway and we’re now coming up on our 9 year wedding anniversary. My husband is a great guy, he has always provided for our family, and he’s always treated me well. If it was up to them, I would never have gotten with him. He lived in another state at the time, and they didn’t want me to be that far away from them, so they tried everything to talk me out of it/ bribe me into staying. The thing about doing drugs and getting pregnant at a young age, I feel like if that’s really what I wanted to do, I could have done it. I could have snuck out of the house to be with boys, I could have done lots of things if I really wanted to. Unless they physically tied me down and restrained me, there wouldn’t have been anyway for them to stop me. However, I didn’t do any of that. I never snuck out, never drank, never smoked, had never had sex, I wasn’t doing half the things my friend was doing. I can understand being concerned about your 13 year old talking to a 16 year old (although the fact that he was black is irrelevant to me) but I just think they way overreacted. Homeschooling can be isolating enough unless you’re making a conscious effort to get your kid involved in social activities, which they were not. But to literally take away all form of communication to the outside world for a year of a kid’s life ON TOP of homeschooling them, I just don’t think they realized the effect that can have on someone. Human beings aren’t mean to live in isolation. It’s not healthy, and it’s not natural. I just feel like homeschooling is a really easy way for parents to have full control over their kids. I feel like that was the biggest motivation in why my parents did it with me. So, I automatically have a negative association with it.


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## NobodySpecial

september_sky said:


> ...
> 
> My biggest concern about homeschooling is the social aspect of it.


It's NOT the same, and to some degree it is one of the things that can appeal to homeschooling parents. It is closer to the real world in whihc they will live after school age, not the artificial organization by age. But that value proposition is up to you as a parent.



> Even if you do get your kid involved in gatherings with other homeschooled children, I just don't feel it's the same. I think children should be exposed to diverse groups of other children. I think they should be exposed to children of different backgrounds, races, religions, etc. not just other homeschooled children.


Again, this is going to be unique to your situation (location, etc..) There is nothing diverse about our community whether you homeschool or not. In other places, diversity is very much available to homeschoolers.


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## OnTheFly

Public schools are a form of child abuse. It’s “programming” just like TV. (Btw, married to a high school teacher of 23 yrs who agrees with me)

Whatever value PS have could be taught over a two or three year period. 

Consumerism and materialism, and a few other things have put the majority of mothers into the workforce to “pay to play”. Home schooling was the default decision for most families for millennia. 

Wifey calls school gov’t child day care.


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## NobodySpecial

OnTheFly said:


> Public schools are a form of child abuse. It’s “programming” just like TV. (Btw, married to a high school teacher of 23 yrs who agrees with me)
> 
> Whatever value PS have could be taught over a two or three year period.
> 
> Consumerism and materialism, and a few other things have put the majority of mothers into the workforce to “pay to play”. Home schooling was the default decision for most families for millennia.
> 
> Wifey calls school gov’t child day care.


The much touted socialization of school is practically systematized hive mind programming.


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## Mr. Nail

Interestingly my biggest concern about public education (USA) is the social aspect of it. I'm pretty sure that 15 is the age when human children most closely resemble hyenas.


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## wilson

I think homeschooling works best when it's done because it's the right fit for the student rather than because the parents want to control their child or what experiences they can have. For example, a kid who has social problems my thrive in a homeschool environment because they don't have to worry about fitting in. What you describe of your experience with your parents is what I would consider the bad side of homeschooling. 

For a kid who gets along reasonably well with other kids, I would recommend school over homeschooling because of the social aspect, access to wider experiences and activities, and the benefit of learning from different teachers. But a healthy homeschool environment would be fine as well. If the child had a preference, I would take that into consideration as well. 

At the young ages of your kids, I'd recommend public school much more over home school. I'd start considering one or the other around middle school. Middle school sucks so much that I'd recommend homeschooling just to avoid all the crap that goes on in those grades. But by HS I would lean towards regular school.


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## personofinterest

> I'm pretty sure that 15 is the age when human children most closely resemble hyenas.


That would be 7th grade. They need their own planet...in a galaxy far, far away.

I'm glad MY child never had a public school teacher who hated public school. How sad and hypocritical - I'll take your paycheck, but you suck.


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## NextTimeAround

personofinterest said:


> I didn't mean they need a teaching degree. You can be an effective teacher of your children without that for sure.
> 
> However, when I taught in another state, all you needed to homeschool your children up through 12th grade was a GED. I'm sorry, packaged products or not, if you cannot help your child learn, you cannot teach your child.


I shudder at the thought if my mother had home schooled me. She had never taken a French class in her life, yet she called stupid because I did not pronounce a French expression out of a cookbook in the way that she expected. And also wondered out loud what was she getting for all that money she was spending at the private school.

*Spoiler Alert* French is not a phonetic language. And the few rules of pronunciation are nothing like English.

Imagine how many times my mother might have called me stupid if I had refused a few more times to give the wrong answer that she expected.

OP, I read the book Coercive Control and it gave a case study about a family that home schooled its children. When the husband felt that the wife was becoming too confident in homeschooling the kids and giving presentations about homeschooling to interested groups, he cut her back. Told her that other things in the household were to be prioritised ie laundry, housework, a cooked dinner ready when he got home ........ before he would even let her start teaching the kids.

You may want to contemplate how homeschooling can become a political football between you two.


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## personofinterest

One of my dearest friends homeschooled her kids, and she did an AWESOME job. Of course, she had a good bit of experience volunteering with kids AND had a masters degree in her field. She was very disciplined and very active in homeschool groups. Her kids participated in sports and clubs. They are very well-rounded.

But I think she is the exception of all the kids I have observed. After working at a community college, most of the kids I observed had helicopter moms and poorly developed social skills. And they became either disillusioned when presented with an alternate world view OR they became constantly disruptive in classes like science, where they tried to shout down the professor and insist the universe was only 6,000 years old. And no, I am not exaggerating. In one case, it was like an even more poorly made version of the mo vie "God's Not Dead." And I say that as a Christian!

When I taught in a rural system in a southern state, most of the homeschooling parents I knew were doing it because they didn't want to be bothered having to take their kids to school or their kids got in trouble so much at school they just took them out. You'd see them all over town during the day shopping and eating out, saying they were teaching math lol


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## Satisfied Mind

I was homeschooled for many years, but also attended public and private schools. Each has its advantages and disadvantages, and what will work best for your family really comes down to your specific situation. Like another poster said, there are many factors to consider.

Homeschooling had me doing college-level curriculum (calculus, etc.) in middle school, but on the other hand, I too found it incredibly isolating and I had almost no friends my age, which was challenging because I'm a natural introvert. It took years for me to overcome the effects of that isolation. Kids should interact with people of all ages and backgrounds, but they need to have outlets to make friends their own age as well. That's not impossible with homeschooling, but the parents have to be much more intentional about affording their kids those opportunities.

At the end of the day, with you wanting to go back to school, it sounds like it may not be the best time to homeschool. You should make sure you understand your state's reporting, testing and other requirements as well, because that can add a significant amount of administrative time.


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## NobodySpecial

Satisfied Mind said:


> I was homeschooled for many years, but also attended public and private schools. Each has its advantages and disadvantages, and what will work best for your family really comes down to your specific situation. Like another poster said, there are many factors to consider.
> 
> Homeschooling had me doing college-level curriculum (calculus, etc.) in middle school, but on the other hand, I too found it incredibly isolating and I had almost no friends my age, which was challenging because I'm a natural introvert. It took years for me to overcome the effects of that isolation. Kids should interact with people of all ages and backgrounds, but they need to have outlets to make friends their own age as well. That's not impossible with homeschooling, but the parents have to be much more intentional about affording their kids those opportunities.


Many people are able to home school and achieve good social lives. We weren't among them! It was a real concern for us. I think it is a matter of location. We are pretty rural.


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## SunCMars

For the record, mine went to Montessori schools and then to private H.S.'s.

Yes, it cost a fortune, but our kids did not hate school as I did when I was young.

Both got into prestigious schools. And they are now set up in life, doing just dandy.

Oh, ones a Democrat, the other a Republican....ah, WTH? !





[THM]- THRD


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## Mr. Nail

personofinterest said:


> That would be 7th grade. They need their own planet...in a galaxy far, far away.
> 
> I'm glad MY child never had a public school teacher who hated public school. How sad and hypocritical - I'll take your paycheck, but you suck.


I'm not sure where that came from. I'm not a professional teacher, it's my hobby. I suppose that my hate of public education goes back to the 5th grade and Mr. Everett (name not changed to protect the guilty) Who isolated me for abuse 6 hours a day for a full year. 

And back to homeschooling . . . .


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## personofinterest

Mr. Nail said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> That would be 7th grade. They need their own planet...in a galaxy far, far away.
> 
> I'm glad MY child never had a public school teacher who hated public school. How sad and hypocritical - I'll take your paycheck, but you suck.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure where that came from. I'm not a professional teacher, it's my hobby. I suppose that my hate of public education goes back to the 5th grade and Mr. Everett (name not changed to protect the guilty) Who isolated me for abuse 6 hours a day for a full year.
> 
> And back to homeschooling . . . .
Click to expand...

This is kind of a pattern...hatred of women because of one


Hatred of teachers because of one...

So....what do we do with the kids whose parents can't afford Montessori and private schools or for one of them to stay home and teach?


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## Blondilocks

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm not sure where that came from. I'm not a professional teacher, it's my hobby. I suppose that my hate of public education goes back to the 5th grade and Mr. Everett (name not changed to protect the guilty) Who isolated me for abuse 6 hours a day for a full year.
> 
> And back to homeschooling . . . .


How funny! My 6th grade teacher was named Mr. Everett and was the jerkiest teacher in my entire education (I have a M.Sc. so that covers a lot of teachers).


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## ConanHub

Homeschooling takes commitment but don't worry about the social aspect unless you decide to keep your boys from it.

We homeschooled our youngest son because we were not going to go through years of fighting the school system with our kid being a casualty of that fight.

We went through hell with our oldest and even though we won every battle with the school, it took time and energy away from our lives.

Our youngest was socialized fine. He did mature far faster than his peers. People were trying to hire him when he was 14 and he attracted an 18 year old girlfriend when he was 15.

His first girlfriend was of Mexican lineage and his fiance is mixed European and Native American heritage.

It is up to you about socializing but your children will take care of most of that themselves and befriend whoever lives in the area you live in.

Our youngest also earned a position on a select soccer team and was so amazing on the field that other parents came up to us to tell us how much they loved watching him play. He could have gone to college on a scholarship but his hot girlfriend distracted him.

Perhaps he socialized too much?&#55357;&#56842;


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## Mr. Nail

personofinterest said:


> This is kind of a pattern...hatred of women because of one
> 
> 
> Hatred of teachers because of one...
> 
> So....what do we do with the kids whose parents can't afford Montessori and private schools or for one of them to stay home and teach?


Hatred of the system that allowed it to happen. I've been in no other youth serving organization that doesn't require two adults to be present with children. But the teachers are not the big problem. In any large organization some are going to sneak in. A good organization would have caught my abuser faster. 

As I mentioned in the beginning the hyenas are the problem. Kid on kid violence is over tolerated. 

Interestingly my mother was a SAHM with a teaching certificate. She could have yanked me out of that situation and home schooled me. But she didn't. I moved 2 years later and the cycle of violence was broken. My kids attended public schools, even though my sister was home schooling and arrangements could have been made. Like my parents I was unaware of the things my kids were going through in public school. One daughter was diagnosed with PTSD when she stopped attending college classes.


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## personofinterest

Judging all public schools by your experience is still unhealthy.

My kids did very well in public schools. It was the private Christian school where my child suffered bullying and abuse.

I'm rational enough to understand that doesnt DEFINE Christian education.


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## cc48kel

My friend home schooled her 2 girls till 8th grade. They wanted to attend a regular HS at which she was still heavily involved. They both are good students. To me .their mother cuddles too much--- it's like the girls can't do anything with the mothers approval. So be it. I sent mine to charter schools and now they are in regular HS. They are also doing well in school. So really, I think it's all based on the student as well as the parent.


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## Mr. Nail

I apologize for arguing on this thread.


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## She'sStillGotIt

Homeschooling was never even a consideration or a thought in my mind. 

I wanted my son to get the education he deserves and more so, I wanted him to be socialized. I also went back to work before he was in kindergarten so I wasn't in a position to do it even if his father and I thought it was a good idea - which neither of us did.

It's just my opinion but I don't think any kid will get the education at home that he can he can get from learned professionals. And yes, I'm talking about public school. In truth, the education a kid gets at public school depends on the kid and their desire to learn. Their education is what they MAKE of it.

My son excelled in school, especially math - to the point where he tested consistently in the top 1% of the nation every year. He was doing Algebra, Geometry and Calculus in the lower grades and truth be told, I was *clueless* about all that difficult stuff. I looked at a page of his Geometry book one night and told him it looked like I'd slapped his book closed on a bunch of flies because it just looked like a splatter of lines all over the place that made absolutely no sense to me. Hell, the kid taught himself AutoCAD at 12 years old and was doing 3D modeling of ships at his computer during his summer vacation while most of the other kids were out having fun. He was in all honors courses all throughout school and of course, excelled in his chosen field in college. He did his Masters program at M.I.T. on a scholarship (thank God).

I'm not even going to* TRY* to pretend that he would have gotten the same - or a better - education at home from ME. :rofl: The kid had eclipsed ME intellectually by the 6th grade. It would have been a horrible injustice to him to have kept him home and home-schooled him myself. He was *way* too advanced for that.

Just my 2 cents but I would NEVER home-school.


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## john117

"Look at today's youth, the ones just recently 'graduated' from public schools.

They cannot do simple math, cannot place their state [or any place] on a map or globe, one having no names. They do not know their congressman, their vice president.

They do not know what socialism is, or is not.

They cannot spell, let alone write a coherent sentence.

Capitalism is bad? Socialism is good?"

Maybe where you live public schools suck?



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## tech-novelist

I would ABSOLUTELY homeschool if I were in your position.

I've known a fair number of homeschooled children and they were very impressive in their adult demeanor and knowledge of things that are not taught in public schools.

The publicly schooled children I've known aren't in the same league.

I was "educated" in public school and consider it child abuse.

My mother had no choice, though. I was given a full scholarship to an expensive private school but there was no way for me to get there without her having to give up her job, which would have put us way below the poverty line.


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## tech-novelist

Oh, and by the way, for those who claim that "professional educators" are obviously better teachers than parents, here's a little more information about those "professional educators".

My first wife was a professor at a city university whose specialty was teaching early childhood teachers.

Her undergraduate students were, on the whole, the dumbest college students I ever ran into. She showed me some of their homework assignments, and their writing skills would have gotten them flunked out of any well-run high school English class. And as I sat in on some of her classes, I noticed that many of these students were unable to formulate an intelligible sentence.

And this is not idiosyncratic to her classes. Education majors have the lowest test scores of any majors:

https://qz.com/334926/your-college-major-is-a-pretty-good-indication-of-how-smart-you-are/

So color me unimpressed with "professional educators".


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## turnera

The only thing that stuck out to me was that YOU had no intention or desire to homeschool but now that your husband wants you to, you're considering it? If you had intended to have your own career, you're being asked to give it up? 

Now if you were ready to be a stay at home mom, fine. 

My daughter is pregnant and she has adamantly declared that she will never stay at home. She's a career woman. 

So my question is this: What do YOU want for YOUR life?


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## Woolyjumpers

I think it entirely depends on the child and the schools you have access to as to whether or not it's a good idea. 

I briefly considered home schooling my son, but when he'd reached the age that it was time to apply for schools I'd changed my mind. 

I think some children thrive in a school environment, and get a lot out of the social aspect which I would have struggled to replicate if I'd homeschooled. We were lucky enough to get a place at a pretty good primary school. 

Other children either don't have access to good schools or just don't have the sort of temperament that would allow them to progress in school. I've also read about some children with special needs having to be home schooled simply because provision for their condition is so poor. 

Maybe you could put your son in a nursery for a few hours a week and see how he gets on?


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## Adelais

The idea that because a parent doesn't have a teacher's certification they are not qualified or competent to teach their children is false and based on ignorance, or is perhaps willfully misleading.

I have a teacher's certificate in secondary education, two college degrees and two minors. When I began homeschooling, the (stupid) courses I took to get a teacher's certificate were completely useless for homeschooling.

Some of the curricula we used had detailed plans as well as answer keys. Other courses I put together on my own. I had to actually UNLEARN much of the stuff I used when I was a public school teacher to be more affective at home. I didn't need to stand in front of my children and talk "at" them, but I sat next to them at the table or couch and had discussions with them. I didn't ever say, "Ok, people, listen up!" Whenever my children had an activity where there were public school students and teachers, they saw the way the teachers talked down to the students, and herded them around like cattle. I remembered that from when I was a teacher, and was surprised that they noticed it. We moms treat each other's children/students with respect and genuine caring for them as a member of someone else's family, which the kids notice.

Decades of standardized testing has proven that it doesn't really matter what curriculuae or methods homeschoolers use, the average homeschooler surpasses the average public schooler. I mistakenly wrote on another thread that homeschoolers average in the 80th percentile with regard to a specific elementary and high school standardized tests. The truth is that homeschoolers fall in the 87th to 88th percentile on that test whereas the average public schooler scores at 50%. (Each year the public schoolers take the test and determine where the 50% cut-off is for that year, and then the homeschooler's scores are compared to that.)

From an article written in 2019 https://wehavekids.com/education/Do-Homeschoolers-Really-Do-Better-on-Tests

"Homeschooled students score about 72 points higher than the national average on the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT). The average American College Test (ACT) score is 21. The average score for homeschoolers is 22.8 out of a possible 36 points. Homeschoolers are at the 77th percentile on the Iowa Test of Basic Skills."

"The Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) commissioned a study called the "Homeschool Progress Report 2009." 3 This report did look at demographics. This study found that:

"Homeschoolers are still achieving well beyond their public school counterparts—no matter what their family background, socioeconomic level, or style of homeschooling."

Homeschoolers in this study were actually not better off or better educated, when compared to other households headed by two parents.

"Homeschoolers’ median family income ($75,000–79,999) closely spanned the nationwide median (about $79,000) for families headed by a married couple and with one or more related children under 18."

Homeschool households where neither parent had a college degree did less well than households with one or more college graduate parents. But the differences in academic performance were not significant.

"Students whose parents both had a college degree performed better than those who had no parent with a college degree. However, this correlation is generally weaker for homeschool students than for public school students.

The homeschooled students whose parents did not have college degrees still performed at the 83rd percentile."
According to this study, homeschoolers have significantly higher test scores than the national average.

"Homeschooled boys (87th percentile) and girls (88th percentile) scored equally well; the income level of parents did not appreciably affect the results (household income under $35,000: 85th percentile—household income over $70,000: 89th percentile); and while parent education level did have some impact, even children whose parents did not have college degrees scored in the 83rd percentile, which is well above the national average for public school students. Homeschooled children whose parents both had college degrees scored in the 90th percentile." 

Having been a teacher (before I had a family) I know how ferociously teachers defend their salaries, importance of their jobs, strike for mil levys to get more $ for the schools, etc. I think the dissent against homeschooling by public school teachers is merely to create noise and doubt about homeschooling in order to protect their own jobs. If all parents knew that 1) one doesn't need special training in a field of study to successfully teach that subject, 2) one doesn't need to have special training in "teaching" to teach well, 3) that the amount of $ spent on homeschooling children is very small compared to what is spent by public schools, yet homeschooling gets better results, more parents would pull their children out of public schools and teach them at home.

The product of homeschooling is gainfully employed, intelligent, civic minded, law abiding citizens. The rare anomoly who does something heinous gets lots of attention, and is touted as "this is the result of homeschooling." 

Homeschooling costs way less per child (less than $800 per child at first...then materials can be reused with later children) than public schooling costs ($8-12K per child per year), with better results. Homeschooling is extremely parent intensive, and requires huge sacrifices (with no pay) on the part of the parents. However homeschool parents are not in it for the money. We do it for the sake of our families' education, values, and to maintain the family unit. Generally homeschooling children get along with their siblings, where as public school promotes competition between grades and alienation of parents.

The move of states to offer parents $2000 per child under the condition that someone from the public school system "moniters/guides/helps/oversees/etc." the education of the child is just a ruse to fool naiive potential homeschoolers into joining the public school system. Those parents don't usually ask enough questions, and they don't know that their curriculum will be severely limited, meaning that the public school will not pay for it if it mentions God. In addition, they have to follow public school guidelines for "Carnegie units" meaning that the student has to spend 120 hours of class, or 60 hours of class on a subject per semester in order to get a credit. This is ludicrous. I have a daughter who flew through Geometry and Algebra 1 in one year because I did not force her to do every single assignment in a chapter if she had mastererd the material. Had I been getting public school monies, she would have had to slow down, in order to spend enough hours on each subject to get a full credit. This daughter went on to get a 31 on her ACT, when all she needed was a 29 in order to get her full ride scholarship.

Another thing parents don't ask when they sign up to do "Public School at home" (they try to call this "homeschool" but it is not according to the state homeschool statues) is that the achievement test scores for all these students go toward bolstering the public school scores, even though in many cases the "inept" parents (according to public school teachers) are the ones doing the choosing of curriculum and teaching. The public schools need the public school at home students scores in order to elevate the public school's own scores.

Public schools began courting homeschooling students when homeschool laws were written into state statutes many years ago. School districts realized they were losing huge amounts of money for every child that was taught at home. School districts figured out that if they "give" a parent $2,000 to Public School at Home (sneakily called "homeschool" for those who aren't familiar with homeschool statues, since receiving government funds and having school oversight excludes them from being included under the states' homeschool laws), they can count them as a enrolled student, get the full amount of $ from the state for those students, KEEP the rest of the money, and let the parents do the lion's share of the work!! That is a great racket for the School Districts, and parents are none the wiser, because they are happy to get their $2K. However more and more parents are catching on, and are dropping out of the Public School at home programs, because of the endless unnecessary paperwork, meetings, silly requirements, and they realize they can be more effective teachers if they are just left alone. They are realizing that educating children is not some mystery arena that only "properly trained" people (aka "teachers") can do. In addition, they are realizing that the $2,000 is not worth the extra red tape the school district requires.

Homeschooling is actually creating jobs for many people in our area. Former teachers get together and form co-ops and offer courses, like a public school, and charge for their classes. Families who prefer to have others teach their children in these co-ops usually enroll in the public school at home program in order to get the money to pay for these courses. The vast majority of homeschoolers don't go that route, however, and they teach at home, or form co-ops with other moms at no charge if they think a particular course if more effective in a group setting.

My advice to people considering homeschooling: you don't need the help of the school district. Many homeschooling communities have free curriculum libraries where ex homeschoolers donate their materials. That is probably what I'm going to do. Join a homeschool support group while your children are young. They will share what works for them, and then you can decide what works for you. For the first couple of years your children don't need much formal curriculum, just lots of reading out loud, coloring, cutting, gluing, listening to books on tape to teach them to concentrate while listening...not questions on the stories. Just let them enjoy listening, or you'll take the fun out of it. You will need to pick a curriculum to teach them reading, but not until they are ready. If a curriculum doesn't work, throw it out and try another, don't feel stuck with it. 

Regarding socialization: Homeschoolers live in families that usually have more than one child. They are socializing with their siblings and at least one parent all day long. It is silly to insinuate that social interaction only counts if it is with the children of strangers, and a classroom full of children their exact age, but daily socialization with one's own family doesn't count.

Most homeschoolers are involved in multiple co-ops and activities and opportunities for social interaction throughout the week. My children have plenty of friends, although they don't see all of them every day. The concept of socializing with 25-25 people all your own age, and not having close friends outside your own age range is only a relatively current phenomenon of the last century. A family, and social circle involving siblings, their friends and their parents is more like real life.

Many famous successful people were homeschooled: Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Abraham Lincoln, William Gennings Bryan, Thomas Edison, Mary Leakey, George Washington Carver, Pearl S. Buck, Charles Lumis, Buster Keaton, Beatrix Potter, Ansel Adams, Andrew Wyeth, Thomas Stonewall Jackson, Frances Willard, George Patton, Andrew Carnegie, Charlotte Mason, Daniel Mills, Venus and Serena Williams, Jason Taylor, Philo Farnsworth. (From a book written by Harvard Graduate, Bentley Boyd)

While the local public and private schools in our area only offer to take their kids skiing for one day, one grade at a time because of the numbers, the homeschool community is offered 1 day a week for 6 weeks of skiing with their friends. All ages welcome, even parents. I'd say that in that case our kids had more exposure to a fun activity and more social interaction than the public school kids.

Can any adult say that they only work with people their same age? Segregating children by age only tends to keep them immature and less socialized in the ways of the real world.

Homeschooled children usually are more at ease around people of various ages. My own girls have friends who are 2 years older and and 2 years younger than they are. They were raised having conversations with adults on a regular basis. Once they get out into the work place, they do very well with their co-workers and bosses because they are not insecure or clickish about their age or other people's age.

So that is my experience with homeschooling. I may become a homeschooling activist in my state once my youngest child has graduated because I have been part of both worlds, and have seen the better fruit of traditional parent directed homeschooling over teacher directed public schooling or even public school at home.

Anytime I speak with anyone about whether to homeschool or do public school at home, I encourage people to just do homeschooling. Whenever the government "gives" anyone money, with it comes a loss of freedom because the government always wants more and more control, regardless of the arena.


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## Adelais

My response is inside your quote in blue.


september_sky said:


> When I think of parents who homeschool, this is automatically what my mind goes to. I think of sheltering, overprotective, overly worrisome parents. Thankfully, although I still do have social anxiety, it has gotten better over the years. But, it has taken a long time to even get to the point where I'm at now, and I can't help but to think that homeschooling for so long played a part in that.
> 
> Not all homeschool parents are alike. You will find a huge diversity of homeschool parents. One thing they all have in common is that they care about the educational, social and emotional wellbeing of their children. They don't want them bored out of their minds in a class full of goof offs, beat up in the bathroom for their lunch money, over sexualized at a young age, or knifed in the hall. You can be the type of parent you want to be. You don't have to project your parents' faults onto yourself or on other homeschoolers.
> 
> I think children should be exposed to diverse groups of other children. I think they should be exposed to children of different backgrounds, races, religions, etc. not just other homeschooled children.
> 
> In our homeschool community we have black families, mexican families and white families. We have families who have adopted african, asian and mexican children as well. We live in a predominantly white part of the state, so our homeschool community reflects that as much as the public school does.
> 
> No one teases each other because of their race, economic status, clothes, hairstyle, etc. in the two homeschool communities we have been part of. If my daughter married a homeschooler of another race, my main concern would be if they share the same values and that they treat each other well, not that they are the same color. The families I know are huge on respect for others as human beings. It is what is modeled at home, rather than droned about from a podium in the school auditorium. If you teach your children to respect others, they will do it when they grow up. When they meet jerks later on in their lives, they will be mature enough to recognize them for what they are, and won't have some childhood trauma from being bullied as a child. My children were never once bullied by a homeschooler, but they did hear crap from the public school neighbors....but they eventually made friends with them too!!
> 
> Because once your child grows up and gets a job and starts to get a taste of the real world, they're going to see that the world is full of different people with different backgrounds and beliefs. I feel like a public school would offer the most diversity. I want to teach my kids that it's ok for people to be different. It doesn't mean they have to agree with everyone else's views but they should be able to respect and tolerate differing views. I'm just curious what your thoughts/ experiences are when it comes to homeschooling.


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## Bluesclues

turnera said:


> The only thing that stuck out to me was that YOU had no intention or desire to homeschool but now that your husband wants you to, you're considering it? If you had intended to have your own career, you're being asked to give it up?
> 
> Now if you were ready to be a stay at home mom, fine.
> 
> My daughter is pregnant and she has adamantly declared that she will never stay at home. She's a career woman.
> 
> So my question is this: What do YOU want for YOUR life?


This and nothing but this.

What do you want to do? 

Don’t buy into the false shame that all mothers feel about so many topics - natural birth/epidural/c-section; breastfeeding/bottle feeding; cloth diapers/disposable; work/daycare/stay at home; homeschool/public school. There are pros and cons to every choice we need to make as parents and there is enough “advice” around to make your head spin - and usually the lunatics on either end are screaming the loudest. They drown out the families that are doing a combination of all of the above to make it work for their unique family. It is enough to drive anyone mad honestly. 

What feels right to you? Discuss it with your husband as a couple. I would suggest you try to frame it in way that impacts your kids, you and your husband today, and in the future, not the past triggers of your parents (although very valid).


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## Adelais

Yes, do not homeschool unless both you and your husband are committed to it. It is definitely NOT something to be guilted into.

Homeschooling is a lifestyle, which requires total commitment from both people. If you don't want to do it, you will be miserable, and so will your children.

Even seasoned homeschool moms get burned out every few years and need to be reminded by supportive homeschool moms why they are doing it. That is why we have support groups that meet once a month.


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## john117

If you have a good public school system and supporting parents you'll get the high scores.

My older girl took a bunch of technology classes from Project Lead The Way, from 3D CAD to building a real house. Also several semesters of studio art. The younger took the full International Baccalaureate high school program and more or less 1 year of college credits. Both are very successful if a bit stressed out college students .




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## karole

turnera said:


> The only thing that stuck out to me was that YOU had no intention or desire to homeschool but now that your husband wants you to, you're considering it? If you had intended to have your own career, you're being asked to give it up?
> 
> Now if you were ready to be a stay at home mom, fine.
> 
> My daughter is pregnant and she has adamantly declared that she will never stay at home. She's a career woman.
> 
> So my question is this: What do YOU want for YOUR life?


My daughter said that too, until my grandson was born, he will be two in July and she is still home with him.


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## turnera

Well, she couldn't stay home even if she wanted to, because her husband is earning 25% below market value for his profession (animation) and is too much of a milquetoast to push for something more. Not everyone can survive on one salary.


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## personofinterest

Bottom line, no one should be shamed for the choices they make for THEIR children.

My kids went to public schools. They both do very well.

My best friend homeschooled. Her kids are doing well too.

I can respect anyone who is respectful. But the teacher bashing and school bashing is just classeless and stupid.

And of course teachers defend their salaries. They work HARD.

You can be a proponent of homeschooling without bashing teachers if you have the capacity for emotional intelligence and critical thought.


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## red oak

John Gatto.
Might find his books of value.


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## Adelais

Gatto's acceptance speech for the Teacher of the Year award.

https://www.naturalchild.org/articles/guest/john_gatto.html


link to pdf of Gatto's book, Weapons of Mass Destruction:

https://antioligarch.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/john-taylor-gatto-weapons-of-mass-instruction.pdf


Here's a link to a Gatto essay.

http://www.wou.edu/~girodm/100/Gatto.pdf


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## john117

Gatto's theory has a little problem. There ain't such a thing as "schools". The USA has a zillion school districts, all different. If you're in a good one like I am, you're golden. If not, move.

In my birth country all schools have the exact same curriculum, textbooks, exams, etc... 

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## Adelais

john117 said:


> Gatto's theory has a little problem. There ain't such a thing as "schools". The USA has a zillion school districts, all different. If you're in a good one like I am, you're golden. If not, move.
> 
> In my birth country all schools have the exact same curriculum, textbooks, exams, etc...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Have you read Gatto's opinions? He is not speaking about any particular textbook or curriculum. He is talking about the general model of public schooling. 

School districts are not markedly different from each other from the student's experience. 

What you are saying is like saying that since there are many different huge chain stores that carry different brands of the same thing, they don't really exist.


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## john117

Araucaria said:


> Have you read Gatto's opinions? He is not speaking about any particular textbook or curriculum. He is talking about the general model of public schooling.
> 
> 
> 
> School districts are not markedly different from each other from the student's experience.
> 
> 
> 
> What you are saying is like saying that since there are many different huge chain stores that carry different brands of the same thing, they don't really exist.


Yet some public schools rock and some suck, for wildly different reasons, which suggests that a "general model of public schooling" is not very useful.

I've read enough off his website and Wikipedia btw. 

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## personofinterest

john117 said:


> Yet some public schools rock and some suck, for wildly different reasons, which suggests that a "general model of public schooling" is not very useful.
> 
> I've read enough off his website and Wikipedia btw.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Ration people understand that homeschooling can be beneficial and public schools can be beneficial.

You aren't going to be able to dialog with someone who sees all public schools as the boogeyman.


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## StillSearching

NobodySpecial said:


> This is actually nonsense. Everything from purchasing full school at home to unschooling can yield pretty terrific academic results.


Yes and I'd say the stats say it usually does.
BTW the majority of ones social interacting skill set is learn by the age of 4-5.


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## personofinterest

StillSearching said:


> Yes and I'd say the stats say it usually does.
> *BTW the majority of ones social interacting skill set is learn by the age of 4-5*.


Unless you're REALLLY weird, like I was.....

Seriously, I had to learn to be normal in junior high school lol


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## 269370

I’m still weird, despite the fact that I got the best of both worlds: I was signed for one of the best schools but stayed at home, for the first 5-6 years of school or so, mostly due to ‘extra curriculum activities’ 
Turned out ok though  apart from the weirdnessness


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## StillSearching

personofinterest said:


> Unless you're REALLLY weird, like I was.....
> 
> Seriously, I had to learn to be normal in junior high school lol


You had mitigating circumstances.
I guess that's a good way to put it?


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## NextTimeAround

StillSearching said:


> Yes and I'd say the stats say it usually does.
> *BTW the majority of ones social interacting skill set is learn by the age of 4-5.*


That is completely untrue. It took me a while to understand that there was a huge gap in what my parents taught me ---either directly or indirectly -- and behavior that is expected /optimal in the big wide world out there.

What study are you quoting from?


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## StillSearching

NextTimeAround said:


> That is completely untrue. It took me a while to understand that there was a huge gap in what my parents taught me ---either directly or indirectly -- and behavior that is expected /optimal in the big wide world out there.
> 
> What study are you quoting from?


There's hundreds of studies. Over decades.
Kids start playing with each other and their parents at the age of 4.
Including male rough and tumble play. 
Sorry but it is scientifically and psychologically sound.
Proven time and again.
Regardless of your feelings.

BTW I didn't say your parents taught you or not...I said by the age of 4-5.


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## NextTimeAround

StillSearching said:


> There's hundreds of studies. Over decades.
> Kids start playing with each other and their parents at the age of 4.
> Including male rough and tumble play.
> Sorry but it is scientifically and psychologically sound.
> Proven time and again.
> Regardless of your feelings.
> 
> BTW I didn't say your parents taught you or not...I said by the age of 4-5.


Maybe we need to question what a "skill set" is. communication skills are very important. Seriously, are you trying to say that well paid PR professionals could have doing just as well from the age of 4?


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## StillSearching

NextTimeAround said:


> Maybe we need to question what a "skill set" is. communication skills are very important. Seriously, are you trying to say that well paid PR professionals could have doing just as well from the age of 4?


That's ludicrous.
And not worth a more of a reply.

"Maybe we need to question what a "skill set" is"....that's also well defined.

You do learn how to interact with others at the age of 4.
There's no question about that.
To say that home schooling interferes with ones social interactive skills, is only valid up to the age of 4.


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## personofinterest

StillSearching said:


> That's ludicrous.
> And not worth a more of a reply.
> 
> "Maybe we need to question what a "skill set" is"....that's also well defined.
> 
> You do learn how to interact with others at the age of 4.
> There's no question about that.
> To say that home schooling interferes with ones social interactive skills, is only valid up to the age of 4.


So you are saying that once someone reaches 5, they learn NO new social skills, they have no need for regular interaction with others, and that socialization doesn't matter as long as they played with some kids prior to kindergarten?

Yeah.....no


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## NextTimeAround

InMyPrime said:


> I’m still weird, despite the fact that I got the best of both worlds: I was signed for one of the best schools but stayed at home, for the first 5-6 years of school or so, mostly due to ‘extra curriculum activities’
> Turned out ok though  apart from the weirdnessness
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can you elaborate?


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## MattMatt

My sister homeschooled her children.

All are now educationally far in advance of their peers and well-adjusted young men.

The local schools are, sadly, a ****ing joke and a disgrace.


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## red oak

StillSearching said:


> There's hundreds of studies. Over decades.
> Kids start playing with each other and their parents at the age of 4.
> Including male rough and tumble play.
> Sorry but it is scientifically and psychologically sound.
> Proven time and again.
> Regardless of your feelings.
> 
> BTW I didn't say your parents taught you or not...I said by the age of 4-5.


Much like the studies with k-9's.
Many studies: they learn all the interaction skills by 8weeks of age yet people will debate they have to be socialized after they are brought home to learn how they are supposed to interact. People will argue until the cows come home.
Oy vey. 
The reason most assume is because they think dogs should be friendly to every dog and person they meet. 
Socialization doesn't have to mean people, and other dogs interacting with them.


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## Adelais

MattMatt said:


> My sister homeschooled her children.
> 
> All are now educationally far in advance of their peers and well-adjusted young men.
> 
> The local schools are, sadly, a ****ing joke and a disgrace.


You won't be belittled for saying that, because you are a moderator. But anyone else with your opinion is open to sarcasm and vitriol.


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## MattMatt

Araucaria said:


> You won't be belittled for saying that, because you are a moderator. But anyone else with your opinion is open to sarcasm and vitriol.


*As a moderator * I am asking you to stop this now.


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## NobodySpecial

personofinterest said:


> Unless you're REALLLY weird, like I was.....
> 
> Seriously, I had to learn to be normal in junior high school lol


That's funny. I had to learn to accept not being normal in high school.


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## personofinterest

NobodySpecial said:


> That's funny. I had to learn to accept not being normal in high school.


You were way ahead of me.

I cared way too much what people thought as a young one. Squelched a lot of myself to fit in. If I could write a note to my 14 year old self, I'd tell her to screw that!


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## NobodySpecial

personofinterest said:


> You were way ahead of me.
> 
> I cared way too much what people thought as a young one. Squelched a lot of myself to fit in. If I could write a note to my 14 year old self, I'd tell her to screw that!


More "normal" than I think many people like to admit.


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## NobodySpecial

personofinterest said:


> Bottom line, no one should be shamed for the choices they make for THEIR children.
> 
> My kids went to public schools. They both do very well.
> 
> My best friend homeschooled. Her kids are doing well too.
> 
> I can respect anyone who is respectful. But the teacher bashing and school bashing is just classeless and stupid.
> 
> And of course teachers defend their salaries. They work HARD.
> 
> You can be a proponent of homeschooling without bashing teachers if you have the capacity for emotional intelligence and critical thought.


The thing that burns me that comes up in homeschooling and other contexts is the focus on the teacher. Everyone can point to the good teachers that they had and the bad to horrid ones. The teacher is not the educational system. There are some amazing rock stars. And there are some normal, flawed human beings. And then there are some autocratic, abusive ****s. That teachers need to be super heroes to win the respect of their profession is absurd. A flawed system is not the failure of the teachers. The fix to a flawed system is not to castigate the teachers.


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## personofinterest

NobodySpecial said:


> The thing that burns me that comes up in homeschooling and other contexts is *the focus on the teacher.* Everyone can point to the good teachers that they had and the bad to horrid ones. *The teacher is not the educational system.* There are some amazing rock stars. And there are some normal, flawed human beings. And then there are some autocratic, abusive ****s. *That teachers need to be super heroes to win the respect of their profession is absurd. A flawed system is not the failure of the teachers. The fix to a flawed system is not to castigate the teachers.*


I may have a crush on you now

Most people who bash teachers wouldn't last a week in a classroom with 30 kids, 3 of whom have behavior disorders, 4 of whom have learning disabilities, 7 of whom have IEP's in place, etc. And they must teach each of them with "individualized instruction" in mind while doing paperwork, bus duty, faculty meeting, testing prep, PTA, and parent phone calls, one of which is from an irate dad whose son made a B, and another of which is from an angry mom whose son got in-school-suspension for breaking a chair when he threw it across the room.

But sure....those who can't do teach....


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## red oak

personofinterest said:


> I may have a crush on you now
> 
> Most people who bash teachers wouldn't last a week in a classroom with 30 kids, 3 of whom have behavior disorders, 4 of whom have learning disabilities, 7 of whom have IEP's in place, etc. And they must teach each of them with "individualized instruction" in mind while doing paperwork, bus duty, faculty meeting, testing prep, PTA, and parent phone calls, one of which is from an irate dad whose son made a B, and another of which is from an angry mom whose son got in-school-suspension for breaking a chair when he threw it across the room.
> 
> But sure....those who can't do teach....


As stressful as it is on teacher's imagine how stressful on the students.


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## personofinterest

red oak said:


> As stressful as it is on teacher's imagine how stressful on the students.


Good Lord almighty. You just are incapable of respecting people who spend their lives educating kids, aren't you? 

I'm sad for you.


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## NextTimeAround

I support teachers. I think that they are underpaid and overworked. 

Some people want to designate certain jobs and careers as a "calling" like nursing. That is, while you have to pay out of pocket for your training, you should be able to accept substandard pay and conditions.

It's the same in the UK. A friend of mine was telling me about her friend whom I've met who is now in teacher training, she's pushing 60. Even my friend said that education is desperate for employees (my friend was a school governor for 8 years) while authorities resist treating teachers like adults.


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## personofinterest

I remember someone writing up an essay during the No Child Left Behind era using dentists. It was both amusing and pointed. That dentists' livelihood, pay, etc. would be dependent upon how often people brushed their teeth, how many cavities their patients had, etc.

Point being, we can buster all we want, but study after study after study indicates that HOME ENVIRONMENT is the biggest predictor of student success, especially early on. The biggest predictor of academis success overall is PARENTS reading to their children.


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## red oak

personofinterest said:


> Good Lord almighty. You just are incapable of respecting people who spend their lives educating kids, aren't you?
> 
> I'm sad for you.


Is there so much opinionated bias, or repressed anxiety, you are incapable of understanding every comment some one makes about school isn't an attack on teachers, or you?

I have great respect for teachers. I have known several in large and small schools who have quit do to the conditions, or the politics. The stress drove them out of the profession. But the students don't have the choice do they?

My comment was based on the Reality of public education an overcrowded, regimented overly priced institution (referring to books and materials not teacher pay) making it a stressful environment which is neither conducive to the mental health of teachers or students.


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## personofinterest

I'll ask all the experts again....for those parents who don't have the money or luxury of private school or to quit work and homeschool.....what do they do?


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## red oak

personofinterest said:


> I'll ask all the experts again....for those parents who don't have the money or luxury of private school or to quit work and homeschool.....what do they do?


I understand many don't have the money.

Somewhere in the upper echelons of the system there is a lot of waste over-expenditures and district favoritism. It doesn't make it to the teachers, buildings or students who actually need it.

There were some teachers protesting at a board meeting say a new superintendents package was extreme.was guaranteed new car and an astronomical amount of money. I want to say with benefit package it was over 750k.

I think it was double the amount the last one they'd had. 

An example, couldn't find the one I mentioned. Compare that to the overall pay in new york. 


> James Feltman
> District: Commack Union Free Schools, NY
> 2009-10 Pay: $657,970 (Retired)
> Another superintendent who caused outrage in his retirement year was James Feltman, who also works in the Long Island area. His salary climbed to an alarming level in part because his contract allowed him to receive 24 years in unused sick time. However, his base salary was still a remarkable $363,000.
> 
> Feltman may have simply taken advantage of working in an extremely generous district, with a Commack assistant principal earned $310,000 and a language teacher taking home $251,000. Commack oversees 7,700 students.



https://www.seethroughny.net/teacher_pay

ETA: The system is broken due to politics. Politicians only care at election time.
I'm not an expert though.


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## Mr. Nail

personofinterest said:


> I'll ask all the experts again....for those parents who don't have the money or luxury of private school or to quit work and homeschool.....what do they do?


A parents responsibility is to Love, Nurture and Protect their children. An interesting example of this happened here. There were reports that a principal was harassing students at lunch, so parents started going to school lunch. Turned out to be not the problem that was reported but they did due diligence. My problem, and my parents problem was that we never got the report.


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## personofinterest

Mr. Nail said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll ask all the experts again....for those parents who don't have the money or luxury of private school or to quit work and homeschool.....what do they do?
> 
> 
> 
> A parents responsibility is to Love, Nurture and Protect their children. An interesting example of this happened here. There were reports that a principal was harassing students at lunch, so parents started going to school lunch. Turned out to be not the problem that was reported but they did due diligence. My problem, and my parents problem was that we never got the report.
Click to expand...

 What does any of this neat story have to do with the actual question I asked?


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## NextTimeAround

red oak said:


> I understand many don't have the money.
> 
> Somewhere in the upper echelons of the system there is a lot of waste over-expenditures and district favoritism. It doesn't make it to the teachers, buildings or students who actually need it.
> 
> There were some teachers protesting at a board meeting say a new superintendents package was extreme.was guaranteed new car and an astronomical amount of money. I want to say with benefit package it was over 750k.
> 
> I think it was double the amount the last one they'd had.
> 
> An example, couldn't find the one I mentioned. Compare that to the overall pay in new york.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.seethroughny.net/teacher_pay
> 
> ETA: The system is broken due to politics. Politicians only care at election time.
> I'm not an expert though.


I'd like to ee what the average salary levels wre for different positions, education and experience levels.

It's happening a lot at the universities in which there are a few tenured professors the rest are considered adjunct; are not on payroll; receive no benefits and are paid only for classtime..... nothing for prep time.

And then there are the administrators who get the corporate level salaries.


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## personofinterest

Most public school systems are ridiculous Li top heavy. The superintendent receives an exorbitant salary. The central office is typically over staffed with imaginary and created positions. By the time the money trickles down to the teachers, many places don't even pay them what we would consider a living wage. I cannot tell you how many teachers I know who have 2nd jobs at department stores or restaurants just to help support their families. And these are people with graduate degrees.


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## Mr. Nail

personofinterest said:


> What does any of this neat story have to do with the actual question I asked?


you asked, "I'll ask all the experts again....for those parents who don't have the money or luxury of private school or to quit work and homeschool.....what do they do?"
I answered "A parents responsibility is to Love, Nurture and Protect their children", "they did due diligence. "


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## personofinterest

Mr. Nail said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> What does any of this neat story have to do with the actual question I asked?
> 
> 
> 
> you asked, "I'll ask all the experts again....for those parents who don't have the money or luxury of private school or to quit work and homeschool.....what do they do?"
> I answered "A parents responsibility is to Love, Nurture and Protect their children", "they did due diligence. "
Click to expand...

 Considering the title of the thread and the topic that's actually being discussed, I think it's safe to say that most people would understand I was asking what do parents do about school?


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## red oak

Where there is a will there is a way. 

My mother was on disability and was able to homeschool my brother. 
My mother shared materials with my sister for her kids. They were able to split the cost.

Since my brother and niece's literally weren't physically capable of staying in a school building a full day they found a way to homeschool for their health and safety.


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## Mr. Nail

Shutting up
3 weeks


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## SongoftheSouth

Homeschooling seems to becoming a more viable option as the price of private schools has increased substantially and the quality of public education is decreasing. While well intentioned ADA has caused some pretty bad unintended consequences. It is awefully difficult to remove disruptive kids from classrooms based upon the wording of the law. My son is 5th grade and there are a couple kids that are truly difficult at times and the teacher and her poor aid must stop and try to get these kids back on point. Its a tough task. But its really difficult to remove them because of the langauge of the law. The school has three 5th grade classes and they spread these kids about in each class (2-4 in a 25 kid class) hoping it wont be too bad; however, it just makes disruption in all 3 classes. I think that is why homeschooling is getting more appealing for some folks


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## SongoftheSouth

As an alibi I think the teachers and adminstrators are in a rock and a hard place behind the education of kids and complying with ADA


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## SongoftheSouth

For those worrying about sports/socialization etc. Tim Tebow (Heisman trophy football star etc..) and his siblings were home schooled but he was able to play sports for whatever district he chose. Not everyone is a superstar athlete like him but he could play sports like everyone else.


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## SecondWind

My neighbors homeschool and they are low to middle income (or so it seems by their cars and clothes) They live on one salary and they seem to get by. Their kids seem as intelligent as the other kids on the block, and I always see them playing with the other kids after school.

I don't know if I would have the patience, but Idon't begrudge them for doing it.


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## cashcratebob

Homeschooling rocks if you have the will to do it and the desire! Can it be better than public school from a purely educational perspective, yes it can but you have to work at it as the parent, and hard. It isn't easy and should not be taken lightly. 

Can it be better than public school from a social perspective? Absolutely, and this is where it shines, especially when both parents are involved. In public school children are socialized through interaction with their peers, the other children around them, with all their little nuances and issues. In home school the socialization is typically significantly more controlled and guided. This has its good and bad points but the good far outweighs the bad. The bad...my children were very naive to the way other kids interact...to the extent that they did not understand when they were being picked on. Everyone was their friend to them! The good...to start they are the most mindful and emotionally intelligent children I know. My sons are more sensitive than even myself at times to people's moods. This comes from the fact that we explore as a family, these interactions. My sons are super giving and kind but also very aware of personal/social boundaries that other kids just don't seem to get. My sons would never, for example, go to a playground or splash pad and grab a toy that wasn't theirs, and certainly wouldn't play with it roughly. But every other kid does this without asking. They aren't bullies and wouldn't even know where to start when it comes to that. 

I understand that a lot of this comes from the parents. But a lot of this also comes from the less controlled social interaction that is allowed to develop in MOST public schools. Although sadly, even public schools are doing away with ANY interaction. Here in the south many schools are moving away from having recess for example. There are positive and negative implications of this...but I don't deal with those because of HS. 

I am a huge proponent of home school for those who take it seriously. If you value a world class college education home school may not be the right avenue. Not because of the lack of education...not at all. But because of the opportunity for the whole person stuff that many colleges look for is a little harder to access and requires more effort to get at when you home school. The home school lifestyle gets you really use to not have all those extracurricular activities and it can be hard to get into them during the high school years.


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## cashcratebob

personofinterest said:


> I remember someone writing up an essay during the No Child Left Behind era using dentists. It was both amusing and pointed. That dentists' livelihood, pay, etc. would be dependent upon how often people brushed their teeth, how many cavities their patients had, etc.
> 
> Point being, we can buster all we want, but study after study after study indicates that* HOME ENVIRONMENT *is the biggest predictor of student success, especially early on. The biggest predictor of academis success overall is *PARENTS reading to their children.[/QUOTE*]
> 
> LOL...hence why we home school!
> 
> I think teachers rock though! What a calling and selfless act. Often very thankless. We gladly support our public school systems through their fund raising and all that jazz. And of course, when I am looking to buy a home, one of the criteria is the public school system.


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## Adelais

cashcratebob said:


> Can it be better than public school from a social perspective? Absolutely, and this is where it shines, especially when both parents are involved. In public school children are socialized through interaction with their peers, the other children around them, with all their little nuances and issues. In home school the socialization is typically significantly more controlled and guided. This has its good and bad points but the good far outweighs the bad. The bad...my children were very naive to the way other kids interact...to the extent that they did not understand when they were being picked on. Everyone was their friend to them! The good...to start they are the most mindful and emotionally intelligent children I know. My sons are more sensitive than even myself at times to people's moods. This comes from the fact that we explore as a family, these interactions. My sons are super giving and kind but also very aware of personal/social boundaries that other kids just don't seem to get. My sons would never, for example, go to a playground or splash pad and grab a toy that wasn't theirs, and certainly wouldn't play with it roughly. But every other kid does this without asking. They aren't bullies and wouldn't even know where to start when it comes to that.


Same with my children. When they became adults and entered the adult world they learned that some people aren't kind, and that mild agression is sometimes needed to show a bully that you aren't a push over. As adults it was easy to learn that; much less traumatic than dealing with a bully as a child when surrounded by other children with "group-think" mentality.


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## Adelais

cashcratebob said:


> But because of the opportunity for the whole person stuff that many colleges look for is a little harder to access and requires more effort to get at when you home school. The home school lifestyle gets you really use to not have all those extracurricular activities and it can be hard to get into them during the high school years.


I does require more effort, but in most larger towns free or affordable opportunities are out there. My children volunteered at a community garden for 2 summers, and they volunteered with a community choir for 4 years. They also participated with a sports group, had tennis and fencing lessons (cheap group classes for homeschoolers) and there were opportunities to be in a band, theater group that put on productions every semester, join a fencing league, soccer league, lacrosse league, dance, tennis, and on and on. Employers also sent our group inquiries offering internships for homeschoolers in their shops: graphic design and printing, cabinet making/woodworking, computer data entry, drafting (architecture). If a parent was willing to drive their kids all over the place there were plenty of extracurricular things to be be involved in, and they could build quite a resume.


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## personofinterest

Cashratecab, I appreciate your ability to respect more than one viewpoint.


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## cashcratebob

Araucaria said:


> Same with my children. When they became adults and entered the adult world they learned that some people aren't kind, and that mild agression is sometimes needed to show a bully that you aren't a push over. As adults it was easy to learn that; much less traumatic than dealing with a bully as a child when surrounded by other children with "group-think" mentality.


Yep...don't disagree. They've gotten a little more street smart as of late.


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## cashcratebob

Araucaria said:


> I does require more effort, but in most larger towns free or affordable opportunities are out there. My children volunteered at a community garden for 2 summers, and they volunteered with a community choir for 4 years. They also participated with a sports group, had tennis and fencing lessons (cheap group classes for homeschoolers) and there were opportunities to be in a band, theater group that put on productions every semester, join a fencing league, soccer league, lacrosse league, dance, tennis, and on and on. Employers also sent our group inquiries offering internships for homeschoolers in their shops: graphic design and printing, cabinet making/woodworking, computer data entry, drafting (architecture). If a parent was willing to drive their kids all over the place there were plenty of extracurricular things to be be involved in, and they could build quite a resume.


Again, yep, I don't disagree. I'll self identify as someone who takes the academic rigor very seriously with the kiddos but hasn't pursued a ton of extracurricular stuff with them. I don't like running around. I think we are definitely moving towards finding avenue for them to be exposed to different trades, find out if there is something that sparks their interest from a career perspective but then get them more hands on. Not sure how to do this right now.


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## cashcratebob

personofinterest said:


> Cashratecab, I appreciate your ability to respect more than one viewpoint.


I try.  

I have an "aunt" (super close friend of the extended family since child hood) who became a teacher. My wife loves to chat with her and get some expert advice on how best to teach the kiddos. She isn't above getting good tips.


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## Adelais

As a high school teacher before I had children, I understand the hard work of planning lessons (with "enrichment activities for higher achieving students) and teaching 150 students a day, as well as the philosophy of public education, and all the (unnecessary IMO) hoops teachers have to jump through to please the administration. Career teachers, just like any career person, accept the pros and cons of their profession. The cons outweighed the pros for both teacher and student, IMO, so I chose to stop teaching and get a different degree that I loved just as much that allowed me to work as a Chemist until having my first child.

Having been on both sides of the isle, I'm not biased or closed minded, but informed.

In my experience, Homeschooling is nothing like teaching public school and Homeschooled students are nothing like public schooled students. When you have to keep 30 kids busy so they don't tear the room or each other apart, a teacher must have tons of activities (busy work) to occupy their time. When homeschooling 4 children of different ages and abilities, I had to have a completely different approach, and "unlearn" much of what I did as a public school teacher. Most of all, I needed to loosen the reigns so my children could enjoy learning, give them room and time to process, not riddle them with questions about dates and dead people, and learn that additional worksheets/busywork are not necessary, and in fact take the fun out of learning.

At home I could cover much more in less time because of the lack of classroom disruption, no need to take attendance, pass out 30 papers, turn in 30 papers, etc. No need for 8 hour days 7 disconnected classes, or study hall that is just wasted time for most kids. At home, Unit Studies make learning much more fun. A child can learn Math, write in English classes and make art projects about the same things they are learning in History class, which adds continuity and context to what they are learning.

cashcratebob, are there any co-ops, or homeschool organizations in your area? If you google your state, town, etc. you will get links to groups in your area, and get the phone number or email of someone you can call someone who will tell you how to meet people and find out what all is available in your area. Be aware that one person won't know about everything, but as you meet more homeschool parents you will learn what co-ops and opportunities they have joined over the years. It can take a couple of years to really get a handle on everything that is available in your community.


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## cashcratebob

@Araucaria , yes we are apart of one co-op at our current assignment (mil). Previously we were part of a structured co-op that worked through the classical conversations curriculum. My wife now does that on her own with the kiddos. 

When I said extracurricular, I had in mind sports and similar stuff to that. My wife does a good job of getting the kids to extra stuff during school hours but we've yet to push after hour things like sports.


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