# Marriage Crumbling



## JohnnyK

Hi all,

This is my first post here. I was active on another website forum (divoce busting) and while the support was great, I wasn't so sure the advice I was getting wasn't too harsh. Most of the people on that forum are dealing with affairs and infidelity, that's not the case with my wife and I.

So, to try and sum up my story real quick. My wife and I have been married 16 years, together 19 years. She had a 6 year old son when I met her who I adopted and raised like my own (father not in the picture at all). About a year after we started dating and 6 months into living together (I moved in with her to keep her son at the same school etc) a knock came at the door which I answered. It was my then girlfriends ex boyfriend just previous to me. He asked if she was home and I said no (although she was) and for a split second I took my off of him and before I knew it he had stabbed me with a steak knife half way through my stomach. He ran, I fell, cops pursued and arrested him, I had emergency surgery to repair a severed stomach, pancreas and lost my spleen and spent 3 weeks in the hospital and 10 months of recovery at home with a nurse visiting everyday (I had complications with the spleen not healing and had a colostamy bag on for almost a year). I mention this because this set off a lot of my family taking sides and opinions about my then girlfriend and she at the time couldn't handle all the guilt etc and went on anti-depressants for 9 months which was understandable. She was just about to go back to school but had to push it back 6 months under the circumstances but she did go back and finish with honours. Fast forward about a year we both end up going back to school for the careers we wanted and got jobs, moved back into the city near where I grew up - was my wife's idea - she loved the area. 

We married in our late 20's, had two boys along with her son who are ages 26, 14 and 11 at the moment. After living in a couple of apartments we bought a nice little 3 bedroom bungalow home in a great neighbourhood in 2003 that we love and 5 years later in 2007 we tore the house down and did a huge reno with a 2nd storey, room over the garage etc. Beautiful home for our family. During all of this time I have been working on contract in the IT field which was fine back then but over the past 4 years or so has gotten stressful financially as these contracts got shorter and shorter so I was always looking for work and would be off a few weeks unexpectedly etc. My wife and I had always fought and argued. She is from divorced parents who are both looney and do nothing but create problems for her, always fighting until about 10 yrs ago my wife cut off communication with her mother but still maintains a distant relationship with her father. We've had financial issues for years. I work steady and get paid well, my wife always worked part-time which was fine when the kids where younger but there hasn't been a need for her to be home for them in years but she still insists on working part-time which doesn't help our financial situation. I didn't complain too much so long as we could handle the finances.

So let me try and get to the point here. Over the past few years I could feel her drift from me, always angry towards me, never anything positive to say making me feel like I'm to blame for everything that's wrong in our marriage. As of this past Christmas she said she's not happy so we try a marriage counsellor for 3 sessions before we give up because the marriage counsellor was awful - we would come out in worse shape than when we went in. We tried another one and she was great but by that time we had no money left for counselling so stopped going. Meantime, I was on the divoce busting forum taking advice from others saying to do a 180 and back-off, give her space etc which I did for 4 months when my wife said to me one of us needs to move out - so this tactice didn't work well for me. We instead agreed to an in-house separation and I tried sleeping in the basement for about 3 days but upon taking the advice from the divorce busting forum I went and told my wife that sleeping in the basement wasn't working for me and that I was moving back into our bedroom. The idea behind this is that it is the marital bedroom and since I'm not the one asking for separation and space, she should be the one that seeks it out, not me making it easy for her. In premise, I get it and agree but in practice this didn't go over well with my W. We lasted about 2 days in the same room and she moved out to her office/bedroom down the hall and she has been sleeping there for the past 3 months. She told me then she doesn't respect me, isn't attracted to me, doesn't want to be around me, doesn't want me to touch her etc. During that time I was following the divorce busting 'rules' to not ask questions, not pressure, give her space, not pursue, give validation etc but my wife and I talked a few days ago and she said 'this isn't working, it's time for one of us to move out'. She's says she's done and can't live like this. My heart dropped but I didn't freak out or beg etc. One of the other things I learned from the other forum is don't cry, beg etc or you will most certainly lose her respect and push her away . Anyway, I just reinfored that I love her and am committed to making this work but that I would have to think about this. I also got the dreaded I'll always love you but not in that way. What she was saying is that I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore. She's lost those feelings for me. She walks around cold shouldering me, picking on little things, seemingly angry and resentful although she says she's past that but she was more than willing to argue with me during our talk a few days ago. Oddly I thought if she is willing to argue perhaps there is still some piece of her that wants this to work. She has sat in that room by herself for the past 3 months and I think has convinced herself that the marriage is done and her 'switch' has turned off as she has said. And once the switch is off she says it probably won't come back on again. She is extreme always. Strangely though she is fine having our best friend couple over for dinner or us going to their place like we always have. We hang with them as if there aren't any problems (we don't talk much between us but we act fine in front of our friends). She also accepted tickets to a dinner fund raiser for us both to go to through friends of ours which is later this week. Surprised she accepted for us both to go. Maybe she is giving me a chance but just won't say it - at least that is what I'm hoping. She is a hard and tough lady, loves to give guilt trips and is generally pretty hard on me, very demanding and opinionated but says what she feels and isn't afraid to make her position known to anyone.

My wife is upset that I didn't write an exam yet for professional designation I am pursuing but it's a massive amount of work and frankly under all of this stress it's been next to impossible to focus but I can't tell her that. As for work, I may be offered full-time work where I am currently working on contract so that would bring some stability to the finances but overall less money coming in so we'll see what happens. She hates that I argue with her but to be honest, she argues with everyone, not just me but she doesn't see it so that makes things difficult but for now I'm not arguing with her about anything - just saying yes basically for the moment. She brings up some nasty things I've said in arguments which I understand but they were one time things and she has done far worse - she spit in my face once! We have never been physical with each other during fights, just verbally abusive at times. She has a very short fuse and yells over small things let alone bug arguments. Granted, I am somewhat defensive, at least during my relationship with her I've became very defensive, you sort of had to be to survive. 

She had complained I didn't do anything to help around the house so I took over paying the bills, doing the laundry, splitting making the kids lunches and generally keeping the kitchen clean. But, how do I get her attraced to me again!

My current situation is this: 

First, she is waiting for me to finish our conversation on how we are going handle one of us moving out (she is inferring me moving out of course). I told her I don't think this is a good idea but she says she can't go on like this. I think my response will be for the sake of our kids and our marriage lets give it 6 months. If we aren't headed in the right direction by then we either physically separate then or just sell the house and move on. Oh, and she won't go to the marriage counsellor either - she says she doesn't see the point (she's already made up her mind).

Second, what do I do to breakdown that ice wall she has put up? I know I can't pursue her per se but having tried giving her space and keeping busy outside the house and that has not worked either. She previously said she needed time and space and I told her I respected those wishes but she was mad at me saying I had all that time to try and fix things and I did nothing (I thought she wanted space!!!). Damned if I do, damned if I don't. This is my dilemna now, how do I handle things with her moving forward. The first thing I have done is just started talking with her nicely and normally in-spite of her short and cold responses. I don't get defensive. I have always gone to the gym and ran so I'm in great shape for a 47 year old and decently good looking for my age, just ran a 5k run downtown last week and did very well, coach my kids softball and hockey teams etc. I'm not a lazy guy etc, I'm always busy with something. I know actions speak louder than words and I am really hoping this full-time work offer comes through - that would give us some stability no matter what happens. But I need help to understand how I should be interacting with my wife day to day, what sort of things should I be saying to her without pressuring her, what can I do or say to try and help break down the walls? Words alone won't cut it it - I need a plan to follow and stick to and I'm at a loss at the moment. Following the divorce busting rules would have been fine had I have been pursuing and trying to get her back but I got on there early and immediately pulled back (didn't beg and pursue etc). The idea being that you create space and she would eventually miss you and become attracted to you. This didn't work for me - she just seemed to get more resentful. She's been pissed off that she had to move out of our room and blames me for making her have to do it to get her space, that she always has to make the sacrifices etc. That she has sacrificed everything for this family. She may be having a bit of a mid life crisis as well as she did mention in our last talk that she almost 50 and has nothing to show for it. I think she feels getting away from me and the financial stresses would give her what she needs in life. She's not ditching the kids or anything like that but she has pulled back on attending the kids softball games etc and only goes when she is up to it which is about 10% of the time or less. She is doing some serious soul searching and doesn't see how I fit into her life right now without bringing her down it seems.

Any advice is welcome.


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## Nix2

JohnnyK said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This is my first post here. I was active on another website forum (divoce busting) and while the support was great, I wasn't so sure the advice I was getting wasn't too harsh. Most of the people on that forum are dealing with affairs and infidelity, that's not the case with my wife and I.
> 
> So, to try and sum up my story real quick. My wife and I have been married 16 years, together 19 years. She had a 6 year old son when I met her who I adopted and raised like my own (father not in the picture at all). About a year after we started dating and 6 months into living together (I moved in with her to keep her son at the same school etc) a knock came at the door which I answered. It was my then girlfriends ex boyfriend just previous to me. He asked if she was home and I said no (although she was) and for a split second I took my off of him and before I knew it he had stabbed me with a steak knife half way through my stomach. He ran, I fell, cops pursued and arrested him, I had emergency surgery to repair a severed stomach, pancreas and lost my spleen and spent 3 weeks in the hospital and 10 months of recovery at home with a nurse visiting everyday (I had complications with the spleen not healing and had a colostamy bag on for almost a year). I mention this because this set off a lot of my family taking sides and opinions about my then girlfriend and she at the time couldn't handle all the guilt etc and went on anti-depressants for 9 months which was understandable. She was just about to go back to school but had to push it back 6 months under the circumstances but she did go back and finish with honours. Fast forward about a year we both end up going back to school for the careers we wanted and got jobs, moved back into the city near where I grew up - was my wife's idea - she loved the area.
> 
> We married in our late 20's, had two boys along with her son who are ages 26, 14 and 11 at the moment. After living in a couple of apartments we bought a nice little 3 bedroom bungalow home in a great neighbourhood in 2003 that we love and 5 years later in 2007 we tore the house down and did a huge reno with a 2nd storey, room over the garage etc. Beautiful home for our family. During all of this time I have been working on contract in the IT field which was fine back then but over the past 4 years or so has gotten stressful financially as these contracts got shorter and shorter so I was always looking for work and would be off a few weeks unexpectedly etc. My wife and I had always fought and argued. She is from divorced parents who are both looney and do nothing but create problems for her, always fighting until about 10 yrs ago my wife cut off communication with her mother but still maintains a distant relationship with her father. We've had financial issues for years. I work steady and get paid well, my wife always worked part-time which was fine when the kids where younger but there hasn't been a need for her to be home for them in years but she still insists on working part-time which doesn't help our financial situation. I didn't complain too much so long as we could handle the finances.
> 
> So let me try and get to the point here. Over the past few years I could feel her drift from me, always angry towards me, never anything positive to say making me feel like I'm to blame for everything that's wrong in our marriage. As of this past Christmas she said she's not happy so we try a marriage counsellor for 3 sessions before we give up because the marriage counsellor was awful - we would come out in worse shape than when we went in. We tried another one and she was great but by that time we had no money left for counselling so stopped going. Meantime, I was on the divoce busting forum taking advice from others saying to do a 180 and back-off, give her space etc which I did for 4 months when my wife said to me one of us needs to move out - so this tactice didn't work well for me. We instead agreed to an in-house separation and I tried sleeping in the basement for about 3 days but upon taking the advice from the divorce busting forum I went and told my wife that sleeping in the basement wasn't working for me and that I was moving back into our bedroom. The idea behind this is that it is the marital bedroom and since I'm not the one asking for separation and space, she should be the one that seeks it out, not me making it easy for her. In premise, I get it and agree but in practice this didn't go over well with my W. We lasted about 2 days in the same room and she moved out to her office/bedroom down the hall and she has been sleeping there for the past 3 months. She told me then she doesn't respect me, isn't attracted to me, doesn't want to be around me, doesn't want me to touch her etc. During that time I was following the divorce busting 'rules' to not ask questions, not pressure, give her space, not pursue, give validation etc but my wife and I talked a few days ago and she said 'this isn't working, it's time for one of us to move out'. She's says she's done and can't live like this. My heart dropped but I didn't freak out or beg etc. One of the other things I learned from the other forum is don't cry, beg etc or you will most certainly lose her respect and push her away . Anyway, I just reinfored that I love her and am committed to making this work but that I would have to think about this. I also got the dreaded I'll always love you but not in that way. What she was saying is that I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore. She's lost those feelings for me. She walks around cold shouldering me, picking on little things, seemingly angry and resentful although she says she's past that but she was more than willing to argue with me during our talk a few days ago. Oddly I thought if she is willing to argue perhaps there is still some piece of her that wants this to work. She has sat in that room by herself for the past 3 months and I think has convinced herself that the marriage is done and her 'switch' has turned off as she has said. And once the switch is off she says it probably won't come back on again. She is extreme always. Strangely though she is fine having our best friend couple over for dinner or us going to their place like we always have. We hang with them as if there aren't any problems (we don't talk much between us but we act fine in front of our friends). She also accepted tickets to a dinner fund raiser for us both to go to through friends of ours which is later this week. Surprised she accepted for us both to go. Maybe she is giving me a chance but just won't say it - at least that is what I'm hoping. She is a hard and tough lady, loves to give guilt trips and is generally pretty hard on me, very demanding and opinionated but says what she feels and isn't afraid to make her position known to anyone.
> 
> My wife is upset that I didn't write an exam yet for professional designation I am pursuing but it's a massive amount of work and frankly under all of this stress it's been next to impossible to focus but I can't tell her that. As for work, I may be offered full-time work where I am currently working on contract so that would bring some stability to the finances but overall less money coming in so we'll see what happens. She hates that I argue with her but to be honest, she argues with everyone, not just me but she doesn't see it so that makes things difficult but for now I'm not arguing with her about anything - just saying yes basically for the moment. She brings up some nasty things I've said in arguments which I understand but they were one time things and she has done far worse - she spit in my face once! We have never been physical with each other during fights, just verbally abusive at times. She has a very short fuse and yells over small things let alone bug arguments. Granted, I am somewhat defensive, at least during my relationship with her I've became very defensive, you sort of had to be to survive.
> 
> She had complained I didn't do anything to help around the house so I took over paying the bills, doing the laundry, splitting making the kids lunches and generally keeping the kitchen clean. But, how do I get her attraced to me again!
> 
> My current situation is this:
> 
> First, she is waiting for me to finish our conversation on how we are going handle one of us moving out (she is inferring me moving out of course). I told her I don't think this is a good idea but she says she can't go on like this. I think my response will be for the sake of our kids and our marriage lets give it 6 months. If we aren't headed in the right direction by then we either physically separate then or just sell the house and move on. Oh, and she won't go to the marriage counsellor either - she says she doesn't see the point (she's already made up her mind).
> 
> Second, what do I do to breakdown that ice wall she has put up? I know I can't pursue her per se but having tried giving her space and keeping busy outside the house and that has not worked either. She previously said she needed time and space and I told her I respected those wishes but she was mad at me saying I had all that time to try and fix things and I did nothing (I thought she wanted space!!!). Damned if I do, damned if I don't. This is my dilemna now, how do I handle things with her moving forward. The first thing I have done is just started talking with her nicely and normally in-spite of her short and cold responses. I don't get defensive. I have always gone to the gym and ran so I'm in great shape for a 47 year old and decently good looking for my age, just ran a 5k run downtown last week and did very well, coach my kids softball and hockey teams etc. I'm not a lazy guy etc, I'm always busy with something. I know actions speak louder than words and I am really hoping this full-time work offer comes through - that would give us some stability no matter what happens. But I need help to understand how I should be interacting with my wife day to day, what sort of things should I be saying to her without pressuring her, what can I do or say to try and help break down the walls? Words alone won't cut it it - I need a plan to follow and stick to and I'm at a loss at the moment. Following the divorce busting rules would have been fine had I have been pursuing and trying to get her back but I got on there early and immediately pulled back (didn't beg and pursue etc). The idea being that you create space and she would eventually miss you and become attracted to you. This didn't work for me - she just seemed to get more resentful. She's been pissed off that she had to move out of our room and blames me for making her have to do it to get her space, that she always has to make the sacrifices etc. That she has sacrificed everything for this family. She may be having a bit of a mid life crisis as well as she did mention in our last talk that she almost 50 and has nothing to show for it. I think she feels getting away from me and the financial stresses would give her what she needs in life. She's not ditching the kids or anything like that but she has pulled back on attending the kids softball games etc and only goes when she is up to it which is about 10% of the time or less. She is doing some serious soul searching and doesn't see how I fit into her life right now without bringing her down it seems.
> 
> Any advice is welcome.



Hello there and sorry you are dealing with this. A few years ago I went through something similar with my ex. 

One thing I learned through my ordeal: If they don't want to be there, there is nothing you can do to change that. It takes two to make a marriage but just one to end it. You can do everything perfectly and it won't make one bit of difference. BOTH partners have to want the marriage for it to be saved. 

It sounds like your W has already decided to leave the marriage and is trying to figure out how to accomplish her goal. I say this from experience, and hindsight is 20/20 in my case. I was thrown for a loop when my ex, over a period of a few years, started to say things like: "It's not you, it's me;" "I don't know what's wrong with me," "I love you but I'm not sure it's sexual anymore," and on and on it goes.

This has mid life crisis written all over it, especially her comment about having nothing to show for her life (which I am sure is not true, especially since your M sounds like it was very good). Also, her being 50 is a massive trigger age for a midlife crisis (my ex's exploded at the age of 40).

You are where I was in the beginning with my ex. I was determined to save the relationship. I only figured out later that she was already gone and there was nothing to save. In the end I wish I had been stronger, it would have allowed me to spare my dignity which I could have used in the end. Based on what you write, your W is doing everything mine did. Which means: it's over for her, but not yet for you.

By the way I met someone else shortly after my ex left and we have our ups and downs, but I'm now very satisfied in the marriage and I have to say, I am much healthier and happier now than I was with the ex. Sometimes the old way is not the best way.

But I feel for your pain and I am so sorry for what you are going through.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

I agree with Nix2. It sounds like your wife determined that she was done a while ago. It takes 2 to save a marriage and you certainly aren't getting cooperation. That's too bad, especially for the kids. However, the kids have to know that this isn't a normal marriage. The misery has to be effecting them in a huge way. Sit down with your wife and tell her that you want to work on it but you understand that she doesn't. Agree that someone needs to move out then tell her that it needs to be her since she's the one that has decided not to try. She's already made up her mind that it's over so she needs to take the next step.


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## Unicus

Johnny, I agree with most of the beginning of what Nix says, also...but with a very important difference: This isn't the result of some "Mid life crisis".. there really isn't such a thing you know, reaching mid life isn't really a crisis for folks who were previously well adjusted......what you've got is the result of someone falling out of love and deciding to end the marriage. "Crisis" of any kind suggests "Temporary"....this, sadly, seems rather chronic.

You should move out. And not b/c of the issues or her decision, but frankly b/c of her refusal to pursue therapy to address them.

When one party has reached a decision not to pursue therapy, the next best thing is a dress rehearsal or reality check on the decision itself. A lot of times, folks are so unhappy and desperate that they convince themselves that divorce is the only answer, and the only way to address that is for them to actually experience the vividness of separation.

So, by moving out and coming up with a financial agreement and visitation schedule which would mimic what you'd get thru an actual divorce, she gets to move past the "I need" phase to actually experiencing what it would be like, for her and for the kids.

Sometimes, reality increases the motivation to pursue therapy, but sometimes it just hardens the decision already made. But at least you have clarification. Right now, you have nothing, and unless you're both working on this, the chances of it actually improving are pretty much nil.


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## JohnnyK

Thanks for the responses folks. It's a difficult situation but I really feel we need some time before we tear this family apart. I am simply going to say to her that I still love her and want time to work on things. Propose 6 months to try and get things on track - see what she says. If she says no then all I can say is we can't afford another household so what are our options. Selling the house is a serious upset to the kids. I just want to slow things down. See what happens in my work situation, take the summer to try and reconnect, see if I can get her back into Marriage Counselling sessions. In fact, I'm going to call the marriage counsellor and see what she suggests.

My understanding is that it's not always over when the wife says she's done like this. It may be but she hasn't walked out the door either so I just need to start doing the right things to try and get her back. I have not idea what that is though other than stabilizing my work situation for one and the other is finish writing my exam but that is going to take months. Need to earn back some respect - need to save someone from a burning house or something lol - (I joke when I'm upset).


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## JohnnyK

Unicus - it's a good point. I should mention that I asked if we are heading to divorce and she said I wasn't thinking about that. She just wants physical separation to see if she will miss me and hopefully rekindle the relationship. She has never brought up divorce - when I mentioned it that was the first time that word has ever been spoken between us.


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## Nix2

I agree with Unique that plenty of people get through their 40s, 50s and beyond without blowing up their lives.

I disagree that there is no such thing as a midlife crisis, but I do agree that if your W did not already have issues that this would not be happening, or at least not to this extent. She might want a new car or a new job, but ditching you and her boys suggests that she has been unhappy for a while.

Where midlife crisis comes in is the entitlement and urgency she feels to change her life RIGHT NOW with seemingly no regard for you or her kids. She is done and excited about her New Life. That is MLC.

I would also be cautious about moving out before you consult an attorney. I understand that men who leave their marital homes are often screwed over in the divorce financially speaking. Please get legal advice to protect yourself and your young boys who will need you now more than ever.


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## farsidejunky

I know you said it, but how certain are you that there is not another man?

The wanting to separate but not divorce is suspicious to say the least.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Nix2

Sounds like OP is very early in his journey.

We are here for you, my friend.

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.


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## Bananapeel

Do your due diligence and double check (discretely) to make sure she isn't having an affair because that will affect how you face this situation. The advice you'll get will be different if she is cheating vs if she isn't. I'm only saying this because many of us here had "faithful" wives that we later found out were having an affair and that was the source of the marital problems.


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## TeddieG

I completely agree that this is midlife crisis behavior, and it probably DOES involve another man. The MLC'er usually seeks to allay ennui and disappointment and run from mortality with a newer shinier model. The "I love you but I'm not in love with you" is a classic MLC line. And of course, LOADS of people get to and through middle age without coming apart, but people with precarious coping mechanisms that barely prop them up WILL fray and frazzle at midlife when they see their youth vanishing. 

The purpose of the 180 is NOT to win your spouse back. It is to help you retain your sanity. It is true that you shouldn't beg and you should be concerned with respect, but with your own self-respect. Our MLC partners may or may not go through a phase where they claim not to respect us, or they may respect us later when the fog clears and the miss something about the life they had with us. 

But you HAVE managed to maintain your sanity. It is very clear you want your marriage to work but you haven't been sappy and romantic and pleading about it. 

I agree with everyone else here; consult an attorney, and don't move out until you know what that will mean in a divorce. And even if the full time job pays less overall than the contract work, it might be a good idea to take it so that you have a regular source of income, and also because in a divorce situation, in a case of contract work, it would be very easy for her or her attorney to overestimate your earning potential when making financial demands. You need to show a steady income stream for the time being. Nothing says you can't pick up some contracts on the side but I would just say you've done a good job of instinctively knowing that you need to stay as steady as possible, you've been very steady, and I would urge you to continue to make your plans (for the worst, while hoping for the best, as @Nix2 says) to ensure the maximum steadiness in your life, especially financially. Your emotions will likely be all over the place, but do your best. And if things externally are steady, it will help you keep your wits about you and help you deal with your emotions. 

Good luck friend. I have been where you are and wouldn't wish that on anyone but the wh0re my h left me for, and I'm pretty sure if he doesn't sort himself out, she'll be on the receiving end of it at some point.


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## Unicus

JohnnyK said:


> Unicus - it's a good point. I should mention that I asked if we are heading to divorce and she said I wasn't thinking about that. She just wants physical separation to see if she will miss me and hopefully rekindle the relationship. She has never brought up divorce - when I mentioned it that was the first time that word has ever been spoken between us.


Johnny, I'm sure you were hoping for some reassurance here or maybe even some therapeutic silver bullet to save things, but I think you'd do well to do 2 things: 1) Listen to her request for separation, and 2) Prepare yourself for the worst. Talking with her is always a good idea, of course, but what you're planning doesn't sound so much like a plan to work together on your issues, but rather wishful thinking on your part that by somehow doubling down and being a "Good boy", she might change her mind. In the absence of therapy and your listening to and following thru on what she's really asking, you're more likely to create further antagonism. 

Right now, the biggest problem for you are not the issues themselves, but her unwillingness to enter into therapy to address them. Without treatment, the "Patient" here..your marriage..will most likely succumb.

Also, I'm not going to get side tracked by discussions of psychobabble like "Mid life crisis" which have unfortunately found their way into the lexicon based more on ignorance than an actual understanding of human emotional development. You can accept what you want if it makes you feel better, but what you're describing here doesn't fall into either a category that neatly defines it as a normal result of mid life, nor is it a "Crisis" in the traditional sense, something brought about by a sudden and dramatic event(s). Her need for urgency only points to her high state of emotional arousal which is a symptom of the chronicity of her unhappiness.


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## GuyInColorado

Check your state laws on alimony. Some states give the wife life alimony if married for 15, or 20+ years. The financial impact on me made me stay in my miserable marriage longer than I wanted, but I eventually got out while I was young. You have 16 years invested, so it's worth giving it your all. Good luck, doesn't look promising from my chair.


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## SunCMars

JohnnyK said:


> My understanding is that it's not always over when the wife says she's done like this. It may be but *she hasn't walked out the door *either so I just need to start doing the right things to try and get her back. I have not idea what that is though other than stabilizing my work situation for one and the other is finish writing my exam but that is going to take months. Need to earn back some respect - need to save someone from a burning house or something lol - (I joke when I'm upset).


I agree with the highlighted statement. That seems to be the only plum in a bucket of worms..

Yes, she could have another man on the side. She does not want to ruin her reputation by bringing it out into the light of day. The OM may be married and not available. 

It is also possible that sex is not important to her "at all".

She is aggressive/passive.....note, I put aggressive first.

She wants the security of the house. The house is keeping her from filing for divorce and from leaving "it". The house means more to her than "you". 

Her love is stability and comfort...and not conflict.

When she drives you out...of the home....out of her life...she will be happy. That is what *she* thinks.

What does she read? What does she watch on TV? What leading men does she find appealing? This is what she is interested in. If it is romantically oriented, about relationships made in heaven then she is not "over" with love and sex. Does she compare you negatively to "other" men....TV stars, neighbor men, male friends? 

Where her mind is, is where her desired future lies. You are not in that future.

Sorry.


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## JohnnyK

She isn't ditching the kids at all. She is a really good mother and always will be. She has just stopped feeling guilty about making it to every single game or event the kids have as our obligations are numerous and stressful. I don't blame her for that - she has just pulled back and has been focusing on herself the last while. She isn't running out the door or threatening divorce either. It's not like that - she is being respectful in how she is handling things - moving slowly, no 3rd party involved, just dealing with us. But all she can see if the negatives in me these days and that's what I need some help with.


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## Unicus

JohnnyK said:


> . She is a really good mother and always will be. She has just stopped feeling guilty .


Johnny, lots of advice here, but you're getting side tracked. Not every unhappy wife has found another man. 

Your quote there, the one above..go re read it. A "Good mother" would recognize the effects of a bad marriage on her children and do everything in her power to fix it. Your wife is doing the opposite, she's refusing to go to therapy with you, and she's begun to pull back from activities with you and the kids. She's not a "Good mother". A good parent is also a good spouse.

Rather than looking for the fruit, you'd do well to talk with us about your concerns about moving out. 

Really, there are only 2 ways this can improve: 1) With a reality check of what separation is really like, and/or 2) Therapy. Your "Plan" will further and likely intensify the antagonism btwn you.


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## TeddieG

JohnnyK said:


> Unicus - it's a good point. I should mention that I asked if we are heading to divorce and she said I wasn't thinking about that. She just wants physical separation to see if she will miss me and hopefully rekindle the relationship. She has never brought up divorce - when I mentioned it that was the first time that word has ever been spoken between us.


 @JohnnyK, I hate to break it to you, but my h said the same thing when I asked about divorce. He wanted physical separation, an apartment, because he said he'd never lived on his own and he was confused and blah blah blah. He moved into an apartment he had spotted that was less than a mile from his wh0re's house in another town. 

After he moved out, and we stopped spending Saturdays together (he wanted to date and spend time together with me, but I found out later he was telling the OW he was meeting with me about finances and how to divide everything - he was telling her that divorce was coming) I asked him on the phone once, do you plan to file for divorce? And he said no, not at this time, but in the event it becomes something I consider advantageous to myself, I will file. 

My jaw dropped. It was ALL about him. 

It is possible that she is telling the truth when she says she is "hoping to rekindle the relationship" and that is why she wants separation. It is also just as entirely possible that she is keeping you as a Plan B in the event that the likely new relationship doesn't work out or that she doesn't want to have to choose at the moment. 

But my advice is, don't ask her questions like this. Don't issue ultimatums unless you intend to go through with them, and the more you ask questions like this, the more you give her the impression that she is one in the power seat, the one with the ability and the right (and your permission by the way) to make the decisions about the marriage while you just sit and wait for her to do so. 

I know exactly how you feel. When I found a midlife crisis forum after I got the "I love you but I'm not in love with you speech," I was warned to expect the next shoe to drop would be another woman. I swore up and down my h would NEVER do that to me, and of course, he did. And strung me along for years, claiming he didn't know what came over him, claiming he was so sorry, claiming he wanted our marriage. And now, 8 years later, I'm divorced and he's remarried to the who0re/Affair Partner (AP). People in MLC act like they are reading from a script, it's so predictable. But even if she's NOT in MLC, her insistence that one of you move out (and clearly she doesn't mean it is her) suggests that she thinks she has all the power and all the control and can make you do what she wants. 

MLC, the chutzpah to cheat, all of these things breed an irrational arrogance in the person involved, and they tend to treat the spouse or partner like shyte. Batten down the hatches and be ready. Whatever is going on with your wife, even if you don't like labels, like MLC, cheating, infidelity, whatever, she's behaving in classic ways of someone who will run all over you if you let her.


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## JohnnyK

I can 99.999% guarantee there is no other man. I work from home half the time and frankly there just isn't enough time for this to happen for her. I did ask earlier on and she said there is no one else and that it isn't about anyone else. I do believe her - she is a very proud person and she would likely tell me and justify it if she was with OM. So let's just remove that from the discussion.

BTW - I'm from Canada eh! But, I will check will a lawyer and see what they say.

She doesn't watch much TV, she reads a lot of self healing books, she's had a rough life growing up with abusive parents, abusive boy friends (physically and sexually) and now with some of the damage I've caused (constant arguments, yelling, calling each other names, nothing physical, she feels I'm defensive and I admit I am but she is an emotionally bully so what do you expect), she has turned off her feelings towards me. I've always sort of been treated with distrust, like I was the ex that screwed around on her - it's been challenging over the years as she used to be completely insecure and jealous of me being around any other women. Now she couldn't care less what I do now that the switch is off. But, there is a part of me that believes there is a piece of her still caring for me buried deep inside but she won't let it see the light of day without some help.

I know I'll get a lot of flack for suggesting this but I was considering writing a letter to her. It'll either touch her or not. Anyone have any good letter examples they could share that would be helpful to get me going. I doubt the letter will make a dent but it may give her something to think about in the days that follow. It couldn't hurt at this point.

She is definitely the type to never make things easy - she's always extreme and has never accepted apologies even over simple disagreements and never takes ownership of her part in an argument. Even now all that I hear is blame on me - not one thing does she say is on her. This will be no different of course but in all honesty, I have not made much of an attempt to talk through the issues, pursue her respectfully etc. I simply did a 180 back in January and pulled back and just did my own things as much as I could. Tried to create space and some distance so that she might miss me - didn't work. So what she saw was me not making any attempt to work on our issues - and she did tell me that. Things weren't this bad January to March, it got real bad in April when she moved out of our bedroom to sleep in another room in our house. She feels I did not respect her wishes for space and move to another room, I made her do it. Right or wrong, this is how she see's it. I told her I didn't ask her to leave the room but she feels I should have left as I created the problems that got us here. I told her the issues she keeps mentioning are just a part of what got us here - it's not all my fault but she doesn't respond. This makes it all the more difficult. She see's herself as the victim.

Sorry, I'm rambling, tend to do that when I get a little emotional. Anyway, I would like to write a letter and get some things of my chest so if anyone has any good references for starting that would be appreciated. I will post anything I put together here before giving it to her - I may change my mind once I've written it.


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## sapientia

First, find out asap if she is cheating. If she is, even emotionally, you are going to have an infinitely harder time reaching her than if she isn't. Is there a "friend" involved, even one you are sure she isn't cheating with (yet).

Second, learn the various TAM posters' backgrounds so you understand the context of the advice you receive: people who were cheated on, people who divorced, people who managed to stay married/improve their marriage.

My background: I'm a woman. I divorced my ex after almost 20 years together, similar to your situation. We are great parents, and had a relatively civilized divorce. No cheating, although there was a family friend who was my confidant who had me wondering if he wasn't doing "standard vulture" position. I dropped both him and my ex during the divorce, btw, which was critical to my own emotional development.

I'm very happily remarried now. My ex isn't.

I can tell you how to ensure a civilized divorce, if it comes to this. I can't tell you how to repair a distressed marriage, b/c I tried and failed. Others here can. 

I can tell you why, IMO, my attempts to repair my first marriage failed if you think it helpful.

Over to you.


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## Nix2

"She is definitely the type to never make things easy - she's always extreme and has never accepted apologies even over simple disagreements and never takes ownership of her part in an argument. Even now all that I hear is blame on me - not one thing does she say is on her."


Reasonable people accept apologies and can own their side of the street. Yes, in anger we all say things, but eventually we calm down and can discuss the situation. If your W cannot do that, has historically not done that, then her behavior now is just a further pushing of the boundaries (or lack thereof on your part).

You've been with her a long time, so this is your normal. Understood. But please know that "my way or the highway" is not healthy for anyone, and it sounds like you've lived your life under her thumb for the duration, if this is how she has acted. It sounds like it's been all about her for a very, very long time.

I'm very sorry. For the record, another M was involved in my situation too, though like you, I insisted every moment of her time was accounted for. Believe me, they find a way, and they find the time if they are determined. I was blown away when I learned (recently, within the last year, and it's been over since 2013) she had started dating the OM while we were still together.


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## Bananapeel

JohnnyK said:


> I can 99.999% guarantee there is no other man. I work from home half the time and frankly there just isn't enough time for this to happen for her. I did ask earlier on and she said there is no one else and that it isn't about anyone else. I do believe her - she is a very proud person and she would likely tell me and justify it if she was with OM. So let's just remove that from the discussion.


Umm, that is just plain naïve. No one is saying there is another man, just that you should discretely check. Once you check and verify then it is fair to remove it from the discussion. Spend some time reading here and you'll find out that cheaters lie when confronted and cheaters seem to manage to find time in their busy schedules to screw someone else. Even if it is just a quickie in the family bathroom at walmart, or in a parking lot on their way to work, they manage to find a way. I hope you are correct, since that would make this situation a little easier to deal with. But just do a little digging first to make sure you know the situation. There's no point in fighting for a marriage if you don't know what you are fighting for.


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## SunnyT

1. Speak to an attorney. Find out where you stand. It will help you make more informed decisions regarding family, job, etc...

2. Offer counseling again....if she won't go, consider going yourself without her.

3. Find out if your state has "legal separation" or not....some do, some don't. 

4. Do not move out of your house. Tell her she is free to go, but you aren't leaving your home. She should leave anyway....go find herself. She can get a full time job and figure out how to support herself during this process.

5. Cut off any credit cards with her name on them. Sometimes, when the one who leaves is not the wage earner they really run up the credit cards for the divorce, for living expenses, for fun, for dating, etc.... You will liable for that. Separation does not absolve anyone from marital debt....and the one who makes the money is the one who ends up having to pay the "marital" debt. 

6. Mentally separate yourself from her. Physically move all her stuff out of the bedroom...make it your man cave. Consider her a roommate for now. Quit asking her anything, take care of stuff and don't ask her for anything. Keep it business, and about the kids. 

7. Don't put anything in writing with her....until it goes thru a lawyer. Don't make promises verbally even. Just say that you aren't sure, you have to think about it, you need to run that by your attorney, etc...

8. Live like you are single. A single dad anyway. Do things with the kids. Have some fun when you can. Take the kids on a weekend trip. Don't go to couples events with her. Just say "no thanks, I'm not interested in that." Period. You don't have to explain things to her. If you feel the need to explain, just say something like "Well, if you don't want to BE a couple, then I really am not interested in doing things as a couple." The only family things you should do would be celebrations, church, etc... 

9. If you decide to try to persuade her to keep working on it for six months (not a bad idea...if nothing else you will know that you've given it that last ditch effort) discuss "rules" but probably don't call it rules. Like "let's not consider this an in-house separation. Let's consider it trying to work our way back to each other." Then make it clear, and get her input, on what "working our way back to each other" looks like. For example, mandatory Date Night. She needs to state what she "needs" to make her life better. No dating anyone else. Possibly a marriage retreat weekend. Family Night w/kids. No relationship talk except on one night for one hour (or whatever). The point is to get both of you to remember why you got together, to get a glimpse of the future. To see if there is anything left. 

10. See if she is interested in self-help. Read "The 5 Love Languages". 

The point is, do what works for YOU. It's not about her wishes at this point. You've done what you can, you are not a schmuck, you tried.


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## JohnA

Do not under any circumstances leave the home. You will become rootless and feel abandoned even with 50/50 custody. The husband always heals best when in the home with at least 50/50 custody. 

Her ex stabbed you? What other hidden surprises will you run into if you divorce and she is living in the house and you come to pick up the kids. 

Read this thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/299497-actually-happening.html. While it turns out there was an OM that is not why I ask you to read it. He stayed in the home, he focused on the one daughter who was still home. 
You will see how this rooted him and helped him heal. 

Finally I read how great a mom she is, but is she nonforgiving with the children? Look again at the dynamics of interactions with them.


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## JohnnyK

Thanks for all the responses. I've actually done some snooping in the past. Went through her phone (before she changed the passcode), checked browser history, cell phone records etc. I work in IT so it's fairly easy things for me to check but I don't have access to her phone anymore. That said, I have never found anything to be suspicious about so is why I say 99.999%. Something would turn up somewhere. I feel pretty certain that another man isn't the issue right now - it's all just me 

Well, I'm not going to go down without a fight. I won't move out and will tell her we can't afford it for one but two, it will do nothing to bring us closer together (I need to back this up with some stats or something). The only thing I can propose is a 6 month final trial and see where that takes us. At the very least we should do it for us and the kids. If we can't work it out by then, well it would seem we are done but, as per Texas Sunny, I do like your rules in point 9. I read something similar elsewhere where they use the marriage counselor to set the ground rules as mediator, set date nights, boundaries, not see anyone else etc. We both have to be on the same page as to why we are doing it or it won't work. Same goes if one of us was going to move out - the intent would have to be that we both want to reconcile and this is the way we are planning to do it. Just moving out without such a plan will do nothing but add further distance. 

I'm out of ideas and must admit am getting to the end of my rope with all of this. It's been 6 months since we were last close and intimate. We were sleeping in the same bed with no contact at all until April but now we are roommates in the same house and things are just getting worse and I see no end in sight. The kids have been unaffected - they did ask mom why she was sleeping in the other room and she just said because she wanted to and they accepted it and have pretty much ignored it since. My wife and I don't fight at all anymore simply because we don't communicate much so the kids don't see any of that anymore - which they used to and did upset them. So in their minds, they probably think things are better. We've done a good job of keeping them in the dark otherwise.

Texas Sunny, your point 8 is something I have been considering as well. I didn't want to take a hard line yet on things like this as it was at least something we did in the presence of each other. I don't want to escalate things. That said, I have a couple of exams I need to cram for over the next few weeks so I'm going use that as an excuse to just pull back for a while.


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## farsidejunky

I think you should shift your mindset just a bit.

Do you know what type of man you want to be? I would have to assume the yelling, name calling, and other such stuff with your wife that you have discussed is not it. Instead, do the following:

Set about to be the man you want to be; understand what principles you want to live by; understand what you will not tolerate from yourself or your partner; then set out to be that man. Prioritize your kids and your own well being. I would recommend the book Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s by Wayne Levine. It is a great book for identifying and living a principled life. Do this while adamantly refusing to leave the home. She can get mad; scream; yell; threaten separation or divorce; etc. In the face of this, you calmly state that you will not be leaving, and if it is a separation she wants, she is free to do so. You still will not leave.

See how that works? 

My bet is that she is emotionally lazy, with a general lack of introspection, combined with FOO issues, which leads to the unsavory recipe of blaming you for her lot in life. 

If she wants to separate, she can do the work for it. 

Your new favorite quotes should be the following:

"I don't want a separation. Why would I leave?"

"I am sorry you feel that way."

"I am not okay with x (yelling, screaming, blameshifting, etc.)."

These statements, issued CALMLY, are effective at pointing her emotional vitriol back at her, rather than the more convenient option: you.

If she wants to talk like a lover and friend, or is upset, be a listening ear. Know and meet her emotional needs if she will allow it. For now.

Give yourself a deadline, though. It has already been going on six months. Maybe give it another six. If at the end of that six months this is not better, file and leave her. 

However, be prepared. Often when a spouse becomes this reliant on blaming their problems on their significant other (when there is not another person involved), they will be shattered when you file. That would not surprise me a bit. She has become reliant on you to be there to be her emotional punching bag.

The problem is she is trying to escape herself, and she can't, so it must be your fault.

One more note on the above sentence. When someone hates themselves, pining after them makes it worse. Why? Because they do not respect themselves, therefore, someone who chases or pines for them does not deserve respect, either.

It is a nasty situation, and I found myself in a similar situation at the end of 2013. We are great now. But it took a year to stabilize, and another year to really get to good. It started with me improving myself, enforcing boundaries, and knowing/meeting her needs.


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## sapientia

I posted this in another thread, but few marriages experience a separation without some kind of catalyzing event. If it's not an affair, you need to discover what it is.

If its just talk at this point you can deal with it. If she is actually taking action -- you have missed something important. Find out.


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## sapientia

I agree with FarSide. Also, get the book Crucial Conversations ASAP and start using the techniques immediately. There used to be an abridged PDF available online, its not as good as the full read but you can start there in an emergency.


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## Blondilocks

Why did you bring up what her ex-boyfriend did to you? Do you feel that she owes you because of that? Was he there gunning for her and you're just the poor putz who opened the door? 

BTW, don't move out. She'll throw the kids into the mix to guilt you. Let it roll off your back. She wants space - she's got the whole wide world to make hers.


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## Spicy

I will try to keep this brief. I was a wife that left a husband that loved me very, very much, after 20 years and two beautiful babies.
I'm replying to say, I had been telling him for more than a decade that I was very unhappy, and the couple of adjustments I needed him to make for it to improve. He was pretty sure, no matter what I said, I would never leave. I spent the last 3 years still in the marriage, grieving the loss and failure of it. He didn't notice. By the time he did, I was done. No matter what he said or did at that point, it didn't matter. I wasn't mean, vindictive or anything. I was just simply done. We have been apart for a couple years now, and I'm remarried. He is still in love with me. I'm afraid that is the way things will end for you. I hope not, but it may be the case. I'm sorry for you all...I wish you the best!!!


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## MEM2020

Johnny,
So - your only chance at repair - is to accept you have zero, and I mean zero control over what she does. 

If you really accept that, most of your stress will disappear. 

If you are a good partner and you truly BELIEVE that, then you will know that if she leaves you will find someone else. Probably someone a LOT less difficult. 

If however, you have some big flaws as a partner, than you ought follow Far's advice and work on YOU.

The next time your wife brings up a separation you should suggest a budgeting session, so she can figure out how expensive an apartment she can afford. 

It will be a lame apartment UNLESS she works full time. But this conversation needs to be calm and focused on real numbers, not best case scenario foolishness. 

Your wife LIKES combat. You clearly do not. So stop indulging her. 

When someone is getting ugly - you can rope a dope pretty easy. It's not about you - so relax and:
1. Babe, I'm sorry your upset, wish I could help you, not sure what you want
2. I disagree (this is solely in response to glaringly untrue stuff she says ABOUT IMPORTANT STUFF).

When she demands and explanation - just repeat: When you are calm and can hear me - I can explain - but not now. You are seeking combat not, comprehension. 







JohnnyK said:


> Thanks for all the responses. I've actually done some snooping in the past. Went through her phone (before she changed the passcode), checked browser history, cell phone records etc. I work in IT so it's fairly easy things for me to check but I don't have access to her phone anymore. That said, I have never found anything to be suspicious about so is why I say 99.999%. Something would turn up somewhere. I feel pretty certain that another man isn't the issue right now - it's all just me
> 
> Well, I'm not going to go down without a fight. I won't move out and will tell her we can't afford it for one but two, it will do nothing to bring us closer together (I need to back this up with some stats or something). The only thing I can propose is a 6 month final trial and see where that takes us. At the very least we should do it for us and the kids. If we can't work it out by then, well it would seem we are done but, as per Texas Sunny, I do like your rules in point 9. I read something similar elsewhere where they use the marriage counselor to set the ground rules as mediator, set date nights, boundaries, not see anyone else etc. We both have to be on the same page as to why we are doing it or it won't work. Same goes if one of us was going to move out - the intent would have to be that we both want to reconcile and this is the way we are planning to do it. Just moving out without such a plan will do nothing but add further distance.
> 
> I'm out of ideas and must admit am getting to the end of my rope with all of this. It's been 6 months since we were last close and intimate. We were sleeping in the same bed with no contact at all until April but now we are roommates in the same house and things are just getting worse and I see no end in sight. The kids have been unaffected - they did ask mom why she was sleeping in the other room and she just said because she wanted to and they accepted it and have pretty much ignored it since. My wife and I don't fight at all anymore simply because we don't communicate much so the kids don't see any of that anymore - which they used to and did upset them. So in their minds, they probably think things are better. We've done a good job of keeping them in the dark otherwise.
> 
> Texas Sunny, your point 8 is something I have been considering as well. I didn't want to take a hard line yet on things like this as it was at least something we did in the presence of each other. I don't want to escalate things. That said, I have a couple of exams I need to cram for over the next few weeks so I'm going use that as an excuse to just pull back for a while.


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## Unicus

sapientia said:


> I posted this in another thread, but few marriages experience a separation without some kind of catalyzing event. If it's not an affair, you need to discover what it is.


This is simply not true.

People reach their limits for a lot of reasons, sometimes it's a "Catalyzing event", but just as often it's just an accumulation of unhappiness brought about by things that have never been properly addressed.

A lot of folks use their own experiences to judge the situations of others without taking into consideration that the results might be the same..a demand for separation... but the reasons can be very different.

Not everyone who is unhappy and requests a separation or divorce is involved with another person. Even if you can personally relate to infidelity, doesn't mean it's the cause of someone else's situation.


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## 3Xnocharm

I have not read through the thread yet, but my initial thought is this...if SHE wants to end the marriage and separate, then SHE needs to be the one to leave. (and yes, its appropriate that SHE is the one out of the bedroom!) Also, she MUST get a full time job! Seriously, how does she think this world works?? She wants to end it, then tell her she gets a full time job and get the fvck out. If she gets a job, that will tell you just how serious she is about this.

Ok now I have read the whole thing. OP...you really must pull your head out of the sand when it comes to her potential cheating. If you go through this forum, and read the threads posted by a spouse who is distraught about their partner wanting to end the marriage, you will see the same exact thing that YOU wrote here...their denial that the spouse is cheating because they "dont have time", and the majority of these people end up coming back to update that, SURPRISE...he/she was cheating. Now having said that, I am not saying that your wife is cheating. There are people who end up right where your wife is..DONE...and there is no other person involved at all, myself being one of them. I am saying that you cannot dismiss this possibility. You need to know what it is you are dealing with. Her changing and not sharing her phone passcode is a HUGE red flag, by the way. 

So bottom line...you stay put. She gets a full time job. She moves out.


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## 3Xnocharm

JohnnyK said:


> Well, I'm not going to go down without a fight. I won't move out and will tell her we can't afford it for one but two, it will do nothing to bring us closer together (I need to back this up with some stats or something). The only thing I can propose is a 6 month final trial and see where that takes us. At the very least we should do it for us and the kids. If we can't work it out by then, well it would seem we are done but, as per Texas Sunny, I do like your rules in point 9. I read something similar elsewhere where they use the marriage counselor to set the ground rules as mediator, set date nights, boundaries, not see anyone else etc. *We both have to be on the same page as to why we are doing it or it won't work. Same goes if one of us was going to move out - the intent would have to be that we both want to reconcile and this is the way we are planning to do it. Just moving out without such a plan will do nothing but add further distance.
> *


My experience with separating to "work on things"... my XH remarried after our divorce. I got to be fairly good friends with his W. When she made the decision that she was done with the marriage, they moved her out of the house with the agreement that this was to work on fixing the marriage...going to counseling together, no dating others, etc.... Problem was, she had no intention to work on it, she was done and filed for divorce. She was afraid of him, so this is how she went about this, which I thought was 100% sh!tty. I knew her intent and wish I had been able to convince her to just honestly end it. 

I am just sharing this as a heads up when it comes to separating, that it may not be as it appears.


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## JohnnyK

As Unicus pointed out, there was no single event. My wife has been complaining for a few years about things, that combined with a few really bad arguments and some recent events (end of last year) combined with financial stress and things got worse when she moved into the other room. She just says she lost respect for me as a result and is now completely emotionally shut off to me.

There is no way for me to know for certain if there is someone else but I have checked up on her and not found anything. She locked her phone after I caught her going through my phone in the middle of the night back in January. We both changed our passcodes after that. We both just want privacy. I admit it was a reg flag for me at first but I don't believe it's for any other reason than for privacy. She complained once that I track her on the iPhone (using Find my iPhone) - our entire family uses it to find our phones if they've been left behind somewhere but you can use it to track your kids and spouse. My W disabled the app and changed her passcode a few months into our breakdown but not at the beginning. I did the same. Like I said, I can't be 100% sure but I have taken reasonable steps to look into it and have found nothing. I don't want to be constantly worrying and checking up on her - that will drive me crazy. If there is someone else it will come out sooner or later and at the point it is what it is. Nothing I can do about it if i can't find out about it.

Like I said, at this point, I think I'm just going to write a letter putting it all on the line. If it strikes a cord with her hear then great, if not, at least I tried. I never did do this in the beginning of our breakdown. I didn't pursue or try and talk to her, I did a complete 180 back at the beginning and that was at a time, according to her, that she was looking for me to try and connect with her. Maybe she is just guilting me and nothing I could have done would have made a difference but I do feel I need to give this a try - to know that I did try without reserve. If she throws it in my face I'll have a very clear and real answer as to how she truly feels about me and I'll need to deal with it accordingly. I can't even begin to know where to start with such a letter though - I just know it has to be from the heart.


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## naiveonedave

@JohnnyK - your wife has shown you many red flags re: cheating. ILYBNILWY speech, guarding phone and turning of find my phone apps are serious potential indicators of a cheater.

Cheaters lie and they find time to connect.


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## JohnnyK

Everyone, I do appreciate all the warnings but I've been through this all already. I've satisfied myself there isn't another man and am now trying to focus on how to handle my situation. I'm open to any advice, just want to move past the other man conjecture. Thanks!!


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## Absurdist

JohnnyK - I have been around this earth for awhile. In my 60s. I have been the managing partner of a law firm for many years. In such capacity I not only manage the business of the firm but find myself addressing personal problems for employees, staff and young lawyers. Accordingly, I have become an unwilling but _ad hoc_ counselor for a lot of guys. I have no expertise other than life experience and a willingness to listen.

It is my experience that when a wife checks out she checks out. There may be "you" reasons, good reasons, bad reasons, crazy reasons or reasons which defy any logical analysis. Sadly, they rarely check back in. "I don't know" is usually the response to any good question.

So what can you do to fix her? Nothing really. All you can do is become the best possible man you can be _for you_.

If you want to write the letter do so. But do it for you not for her. I can almost guarantee it will have little, if any, impact on your wife or her thinking.

Good luck my friend.


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## TheTruthHurts

I can help you start the letter.

"Dear x: 

We've been married for x period and known each other y period. Now we are at a point where we have to clearly decide our next steps.

I envision .... for my life. I want .... and .... I am good at .... and feel I'd like to .....

In a partner, I need someone who is .... And .... and .... I am not looking for ....

My future could take a number of paths. Right now, I think it might be .... or .... or ....

What do you want? What do you need? Where do you want to go with your life?

I can see a future together if you love, respect, and admire me and want to be my wife. That part is entirely up to you.

I'm moving forward with my life. What are your thoughts?"

You have to decide what you want. Then go do it or get it. You can't appear to be on the fence in life right now. Stake a course and invite her along if you want her by your side. If not, make it a goodby letter.


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## JohnnyK

Absurdist - I do really appreciate what you are saying and tend to agree with you. That said, there is a very small part of me that wonders if my wife isn't 100% done, maybe 99%, just done enough to push it to the brink to see what change can take place and if nothing changes, then 100% done. I've been told in other forums (Divorce Busting) to not believe anything the spouse says and half of what they do because our spouses will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared. I guess what I'm trying to say is she hasn't walked out the door, there is no sign of another man yet she stays and puts up with the situation. She says that one of us needs to move out and that is not the first time she has suggested it (me moving out that is). 

Ok, so for arguments sake, let's assume she is pushing it to the brink for the sake of change and is all but checked out at this point. But what if she wants to see if I care enough to save the marriage? If I would do what it takes to bring lasting changes to the relationship? To see just how far I would go to get her back? She certainly questions my care and concern of the relationship - she always has. She's a different sort of woman. Demanding with high expectations, strong willed and smart, short tempered but she gives a lot and puts her family first and is fiercely defensive of us all. I haven't always been there for her (being at the receiving end of a lot of these traits I've often let her fight her own battles to see what it feels like when being verbally assaulted - usually between her and her family, sister/brother). I'm not totally innocent here, I've made my mistakes, not stepped up when I should have hence the loss of respect comments I'm sure. But, I am a good guy, loyal and loving husband (I show a lot of affection), hard worker and a really good dad. My wife isn't running out the door but certainly it is turning into a slow crawl and I haven't done much to make things any better between us. Some woman want to see the attempt to make things better, to see what you would do and sacrifice for her. I haven't done any of this. I did a 180 the first month and have completely kept my distance, was nice to her but didn't ask her any questions about what she was doing, where she was going, gave her as much space as she wanted - all the things we are told to do. But, after 6 months of this I think the one thing I wished I had done is put in an effort to try and win her heart back. If I tried and she pushed me away after a while then it would have been clear that I tried and now I'm going to get on with my life (my 180). I did the 180 right away. So we never did the dance that probably should have taken place. We did try marriage counselling but the first one was a bust, the second a dream but we blew our budget on the first one so never got back to her after only 3 visits. I guess I want to be sure I've done and tried everything I can before I take a hard line 180 and really move on. Hope this all makes sense folks. I don't even know what I could do at this point anyway. I haven't poured my heart out to her - I've been so careful not to pursue, beg and plead which I'm glad that I didn't but letting her know how I feel about her and what I want for us might be something I should consider. I guess it comes back to maybe writing a letter. I took a shot it today and it's not easy! (thanks for your comments TheTruthHurts - I get where you're coming from). 

Sorry for the meandering babble!


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## turnera

Nix2 said:


> I agree with Unique that plenty of people get through their 40s, 50s and beyond without blowing up their lives.
> 
> I disagree that there is no such thing as a midlife crisis, but I do agree that if your W did not already have issues that this would not be happening, or at least not to this extent.


MLCs almost always have something to do with childhood and are very complex deals. It would take a lot of therapy for her to figure out where it's all coming from. 

In the meantime, I want you to check her phone/text records, JUST to be sure she's not pining for some other guy. If she IS, you have to go in a completely different direction. My SIL suddenly divorced my brother, saying it was because of how negative he was...until we discovered her longlost childhood secret love had looked her up on Facebook and started reminding her of what she missed out on. NEVER in my wildest dreams would I have believed her capable of that. But there is was. Combine middle age and old feelings...you just can't predict it.

Anyway, AFTER you search the records and if you find nothing, the next thing you need to do is get the book His Needs Her Needs and read it thoroughly. If she'll read it too, great. If not, tell her the basics of it and then ask her to fill out the questionnaires that go with it. Those LB and EN questionnaires will tell you a LOT. Once you know what you're really dealing with, you have a much better chance of adjusting things so that she has less to be angry about. And she'll have a chance to be heard.

As for specifics, do NOT move out of your bedroom, do NOT move out of your house. Women despise weak men. And whether she knows it or not, she needs you to be firm, resolute, and NOT willing to beg her to stay. Respect yourself so that she can. DO be open to hearing her grievances, but do NOT be willing to compromise your integrity.


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## Tobyboy

You said you were posting in DB? 
Maybe I'm confusing you with some other poster, but didn't you see some dude(friend) squeeze her ass not to long ago?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

SunCMars said:


> I agree with the highlighted statement. That seems to be the only plum in a bucket of worms..
> 
> Yes, she could have another man on the side. She does not want to ruin her reputation by bringing it out into the light of day. The OM may be married and not available.
> 
> It is also possible that sex is not important to her "at all".
> 
> She is aggressive/passive.....note, I put aggressive first.
> 
> She wants the security of the house. The house is keeping her from filing for divorce and from leaving "it". The house means more to her than "you".
> 
> Her love is stability and comfort...and not conflict.
> 
> When she drives you out...of the home....out of her life...she will be happy. That is what *she* thinks.
> 
> What does she read? What does she watch on TV? What leading men does she find appealing? This is what she is interested in. If it is romantically oriented, about relationships made in heaven then she is not "over" with love and sex. Does she compare you negatively to "other" men....TV stars, neighbor men, male friends?
> 
> Where her mind is, is where her desired future lies. You are not in that future.
> 
> Sorry.


Geez sunCmars, that was actually some good, logical thinking. I agree.

OP, don't move out, don't treat this person too well in the divorce that's coming whether you like it or not. Get the best divorce you possibly can financially. What you describe is a classic case of other man syndrome. You need to do some snooping.
How is your sex life? Has it changed suddenly in the past? What would happen if you asked to borrow her phone?
Does she stay on her phone a lot with all that free time dhole you work?
You really need to face the fact that your marriage is over, and that your wife is no longer your friend. She is and will demonstrate herself to be your worst enemy.
Be prepared. She's already told you her mind is made up and she doesn't love you. It's the truth. The dhole truth, however, would likely boil your blood.
Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheTruthHurts

.


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## Evinrude58

You're 99.9% sure it's not another man, yet your wife has not been intimate with you in months, recently put a pass ode on her phone and disabled tracking????
Really? 

Ok, it matters not. The fact is that the live switch is in the off position and you think there's still a chance it's in the "just slightly on" position.

I wish that were true. But once a woman makes her mind up she's no longer in love with you--- it's over. 
The longer it takes for you to accept that, the longer your pain will last.

You would be a lunatic to move out. She wants a life where she's free of you, but still wants the security of the home and paycheck that you have provided all these years. Based on what you've described, that's the only reason she's still there.

Acceptance is the key. She's been detaching for months or years. You've got to play catch-up or you're on for more misery than you've ever felt.

I wish it weren't true. But it is. Accept it. Your life isn't over. You'll be free to pursue a person who actually cares about you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunCMars

Absurdist said:


> JohnnyK - I have been around this earth for awhile. In my 60s. I have been the managing partner of a law firm for many years. In such capacity I not only manage the business of the firm but find myself addressing personal problems for employees, staff and young lawyers. Accordingly, I have become an unwilling but _ad hoc_ counselor for a lot of guys. I have no expertise other than life experience and a willingness to listen.
> 
> It is my experience that when a wife checks out she checks out. There may be "you" reasons, good reasons, bad reasons, crazy reasons or reasons which defy any logical analysis. Sadly, they rarely check back in. "I don't know" is usually the response to any good question.
> 
> So what can you do to fix her? Nothing really. All you can do is become the best possible man you can be _for you_.
> 
> If you want to write the letter do so. But do it for you not for her. I can almost guarantee it will have little, if any, impact on your wife or her thinking.
> 
> Good luck my friend.


This is a good post'

It applies to all human behavior and interactions on the Earth.

If you have "Logic" at your back and "Reason" propelling your Sailboat you are still ALONE on the "Sea of Public Opinion".

In a courtroom, you can apply logic and a clear sequence of events [ref: What happened?]. But there are always some who will dissent from the majority vote. Why? Pre-conceived ideas, bias and emotional rope that binds the mind...against said logic and reason.

In the courtroom, the Jurors are one's Peers and are not [normally] invested in the Defendant or the Prosecution. They are outsiders "looking in". They are "more" likely to bring a just decision. But they are plastic, and can be swayed against their better judgements.

In a marriage or relationship, the plaintiff/defendant are emotionally invested. This usually biases them against reason, logic.... empathy. 

Domestic Justice [can be] subverted by bile, wrath, revenge, indifference or selfishness.

Or- by a Little-Head driven Big-Head.

Or- by a Steaming-Clam driven Coifed, red Lip-Sticked Hard-Head.

Emotional Justice is Bad Justice, in-Toto.


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## JohnnyK

I just got off a phone call with our marriage counselor who we have not seen since January. I gave her a quick high-level of what's transpired and our current state and that the wife will not go see her for marriage counselling. She suggested telling my wife that we need to go see her to figure out how we are going to handle a separation amicably. MC says my wife won't go under the pretense of trying to fix the marriage at this point as it's if I have not heard what she is saying (that she's done). I guess if I can get her in there it will give us an opportunity to talk things out. The MC suspects that my wife had the resolve to split long before moving to the other bedroom which wasn't good to hear but it is what it is. I'm grasping at straws at this point, I will propose this to the wife today if I can get some time with her and see what she says. Either way we are going to need some mediation to help us repair the relationship or separate us. This seems the only logical next step at this point.

I imagine I'm going to get a big dose of reality if the meeting with the MC happens. I don't want to wallow in false hope so if she is truly done I need to hear it straight and having the MC there to clarify and confirm things to ensure this isn't emotional or game talk will be helpful. One way or another I'll know where I stand after that meeting. I know I'll probably fall apart afterwards - the thought of us breaking up is one thing, but the thought of our kids going through the hell that is to come tears my heart out. They will be shattered!

Any thoughts, comments or recommendations on any of this are welcome. Thanks!


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## Nix2

JohnnyK said:


> I just got off a phone call with our marriage counselor who we have not seen since January. I gave her a quick high-level of what's transpired and our current state and that the wife will not go see her for marriage counselling. She suggested telling my wife that we need to go see her to figure out how we are going to handle a separation amicably. MC says my wife won't go under the pretense of trying to fix the marriage at this point as it's if I have not heard what she is saying (that she's done). I guess if I can get her in there it will give us an opportunity to talk things out. The MC suspects that my wife had the resolve to split long before moving to the other bedroom which wasn't good to hear but it is what it is. I'm grasping at straws at this point, I will propose this to the wife today if I can get some time with her and see what she says. Either way we are going to need some mediation to help us repair the relationship or separate us. This seems the only logical next step at this point.
> 
> I imagine I'm going to get a big dose of reality if the meeting with the MC happens. I don't want to wallow in false hope so if she is truly done I need to hear it straight and having the MC there to clarify and confirm things to ensure this isn't emotional or game talk will be helpful. One way or another I'll know where I stand after that meeting. I know I'll probably fall apart afterwards - the thought of us breaking up is one thing, but the thought of our kids going through the hell that is to come tears my heart out. They will be shattered!
> 
> Any thoughts, comments or recommendations on any of this are welcome. Thanks!


You are going through the stages as all of us in your situation have done. The loss of a marriage is a death and it will be grieved as such. 

I gently remind you that your W has given it to you straight already. She has told you in word and deed that she does not want to continue in your M. You are in shock and denial, and can't believe that this is happening. 

You didn't want this, but you cannot stop it. And believe it or not, it's the best thing for everyone. Keeping someone where they don't want to be is a form of slavery and just as bad for you as it would be for her.

Your children have likely known something is wrong in your M for a long time. They may even be relieved that the problems are now out in the open and are being dealt with. They are resilient and will recover, especially if you and your W can manage to relate amicably in front of them. The fact that they are older will help them cope as well. My current situation with a blended family where this did NOT happen testifies to the damage that can be done to children when the divorce is high conflict. The point being that the ongoing bitterness and hatred arising from the high conflict D damaged the children, not the D itself. Many studies, books, etc will back that up.

In time, you may look back and see that your W isn't deserving of the pedestal where you seem to have placed her. 

There's someone out there who wants you and will appreciate you.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

I hope she agrees to go to the MC with you. You both need to lay it out there on what's going on. If you're thinking that the MC is going to persuade her into saving the marriage, you're going to be in for a shock. I know that you said you want to move beyond it, but you really need to think about the possibility of an affair here. You're not with her the entire time; she's sleeps in another room by herself. How in the world do you know that she isn't chatting away on her phone with someone? Open your eyes and your ears. Let us know how it goes.


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## Evinrude58

The .01% chance they're cheating is always a *****.

He is in the denial stage, as said. He will eventually reach the anger stage, then finAlly acceptance. He'll start healing then, go through a lot more anger, and then the best one--- the IFGAF stage. After that, he'll find another woman to love for a while until she goes nuts like the last one and he learns to deal with the craziness in the right way or she bails.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nix2

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> I hope she agrees to go to the MC with you. You both need to lay it out there on what's going on. If you're thinking that the MC is going to persuade her into saving the marriage, you're going to be in for a shock. I know that you said you want to move beyond it, but you really need to think about the possibility of an affair here. You're not with her the entire time; she's sleeps in another room by herself. How in the world do you know that she isn't chatting away on her phone with someone? Open your eyes and your ears. Let us know how it goes.


That was exactly what happened with my ex. She spent most of her time away from me yet I was so positive that "her time was accounted for." The deluded will find an excuse for anything, and I am a prime example.


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## JohnnyK

Well I just exported her cell phone call logs for the past month to excel and sorted it all. She calls me, my two youngest sons and her best friend by far the most. The rest are 4 calls or less per month. This is what I expected to find. I have no way to get onto her phone to check text etc short of her passing out cold and me swiping her finger while she is sleeping. I'm not going down that road. I'll keep my eyes open but I don't want to become paranoid either. I did feel this way early on but after I did go through her phone then and found nothing I talked myself down and told myself not go do this anymore. Just drives you crazy.


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## MEM2020

Johnny,
Until you shift your focus - to yourself - you will make no progress.




JohnnyK said:


> Well I just exported her cell phone call logs for the past month to excel and sorted it all. She calls me, my two youngest sons and her best friend by far the most. The rest are 4 calls or less per month. This is what I expected to find. I have no way to get onto her phone to check text etc short of her passing out cold and me swiping her finger while she is sleeping. I'm not going down that road. I'll keep my eyes open but I don't want to become paranoid either. I did feel this way early on but after I did go through her phone then and found nothing I talked myself down and told myself not go do this anymore. Just drives you crazy.


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## phillybeffandswiss

3Xnocharm said:


> Also, she MUST get a full time job! Seriously, how does she think this world works?? She wants to end it, then tell her she gets a full time job and get the fvck out. If she gets a job, that will tell you just how serious she is about this.


^^^THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. Also, go consult a lawyer NOW. TO me, personally, if you start hinting at something I'm going to take you at your word. I'd be at an attorney, YESTERDAY, seeing where you stand financially, working out a separation agreement and seeing what alimony is like. You could be paying all of your bills, all of her bills and child support because you let this go.

Operate like she KNOWS exactly what she is doing and get prepared. Yes, you can try to fix things, but it may entail divorce.

Be prepared.


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## Absurdist

phillybeffandswiss said:


> ^^^THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. Also, go consult a lawyer NOW. TO me, personally, if you start hinting at something I'm going to take you at your word. I'd be at an attorney, YESTERDAY, seeing where you stand financially, working out a separation agreement and seeing what alimony is like. You could be paying all of your bills, all of her bills and child support because you let this go.
> 
> Operate like she KNOWS exactly what she is doing and get prepared. Yes, you can try to fix things, but it may entail divorce.
> 
> Be prepared.


You absolutely must do this. Philly is dead on. Do not go into the MC session unprepared. If she wants to separate/divorce, you must spell out exactly what this means in terms of support payments, custody of kids, impact on kids, sale of the house, living arrangements etc. She must be presented with cold hard reality.

Johnny K this is not a mean thing to do. It's a loving thing. She wants you to let her go, so you let her go. But "letting go" comes at a cost. This is how much your desire costs. Are you willing to pay the price? Only she can answer this.

As an aside, as a (stinking) lawyer, I can't tell you how many times people have come into my office dead set on suing someone over some perceived injustice. I listen to them. Then I tell them about the holes in their case, the defenses the other party will raise, the costs of filing suit, the attorney's fees involved, the time the case will take and the emotional toll they will go through. You would be surprised how many people change their tune when when presented this reality. Many leave the office thinking there is a better way to resolve their problems.

Perhaps this will happen for you but you will not know if you're not prepared.

Good luck my friend.


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## JohnnyK

Absurdist said:


> You absolutely must do this. Philly is dead on. Do not go into the MC session unprepared. If she wants to separate/divorce, you must spell out exactly what this means in terms of support payments, custody of kids, impact on kids, sale of the house, living arrangements etc. She must be presented with cold hard reality.
> 
> Johnny K this is not a mean thing to do. It's a loving thing. She wants you to let her go, so you let her go. But "letting go" comes at a cost. This is how much your desire costs. Are you willing to pay the price? Only she can answer this.
> 
> As an aside, as a (stinking) lawyer, I can't tell you how many times people have come into my office dead set on suing someone over some perceived injustice. I listen to them. Then I tell them about the holes in their case, the defenses the other party will raise, the costs of filing suit, the attorney's fees involved, the time the case will take and the emotional toll they will go through. You would be surprised how many people change their tune when when presented this reality. Many leave the office thinking there is a better way to resolve their problems.
> 
> Perhaps this will happen for you but you will not know if you're not prepared.
> 
> Good luck my friend.



I'll try and get in for a consultation asap.

I just spoke to my wife and told her I spoke to the marriage counselor and she agreed that we should come in and see her to help us work through the separation arrangements with her to keep things amicable. My W was not happy, said I blind sided her with this (really? - she dropped the absolution of done and separation bomb on me this past weekend), that we could do this ourselves (doubt it), that our money would be better spent getting lawyers which I responded that's not very amicable. She spouted all sorts of nonsense then left the room. She texted me 10 minutes later agreeing to go see the marriage counselor. I don't know what to make of her reaction but generally she is always looking for something to be mad about or give me a hard time over, as she did - she's angrier than ever these days. Other than that - who the hell knows!


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## farsidejunky

This isn't about you, JohnnyK, unfortunately.

This is all about her. Once the sole source of her current misery is removed (you), she will find herself miserable still. She will then pick another scapegoat. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do except focus on yourself. Find your principles and live by them rigidly. She will either start to become introspective or not. Either way, she has to learn on her own. It may take blowing up your marriage to do so.


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## JohnnyK

In response to her text I sent this response:

"I have to tell you, you dropped a bomb on me last weekend. I thought we had a chance but you made it crystal clear you were done and just want separation. You asked me to think about it and I have. You've left me no choice but to look at a separation and how we can manage it amicably. This wasn't at all my where I wanted us to go but I have no control over it and I have accepted that. My call to the MC was to see if she can facilitate something like this - and she strongly recommended it. Thank you for agreeing to go."

I had sent this in response to her agreeing to go. It was an emotional response mostly because of her irrational response from our conversation earlier. I always end up feeling I didn't say what needed to be said and felt I should at least make this clear. Probably shouldn't have said anything more but its done. She did not reply.


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## farsidejunky

That was perfect.


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## philreag

Sound like she is already gone. Not much chance of getting her back.

Be strong. We have all been there.

Be a great father and the best person you can be.

I'm just getting to the point where I don't want my STBXW back. I just don't need that **** in my life.


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## JohnnyK

How are you guys staying strong? This is going to be really hard - especially with the kids. I'm getting used to the idea of not being with her as we haven't done a lot together the past few months and she hasn't been very nice to be around anyway but the family split is really going to take a toll on me. I may need to drug myself! I already don't sleep well and can barely focus at work thinking about this all of the time. I need a mental break!


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## phillybeffandswiss

JohnnyK said:


> I'll try and get in for a consultation asap.
> 
> I just spoke to my wife and told her I spoke to the marriage counselor and she agreed that we should come in and see her to help us work through the separation arrangements with her to keep things amicable. My W was not happy, said I blind sided her with this (really? - she dropped the absolution of done and separation bomb on me this past weekend), that we could do this ourselves (doubt it), that our money would be better spent getting lawyers which I responded that's not very amicable. She spouted all sorts of nonsense then left the room. She texted me 10 minutes later agreeing to go see the marriage counselor. I don't know what to make of her reaction but generally she is always looking for something to be mad about or give me a hard time over, as she did - she's angrier than ever these days. Other than that - who the hell knows!


Sure you do. You are in the beginning stages of game playing. Yes, you may have done things to hurt your marriage, but the more info you post I'm starting to wonder if there is someone else as others do.


Go see your doctor as soon as you can. Heck, see if there is an open slot today. Also, do the 180 and do it correctly.


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## MJJEAN

If you're looking to her call logs to tell you if she is cheating, you're looking in the wrong place. SnapChat, Twitter, Facebook, What'sApp (and a hundred like it), games...there are TONS of ways commonly used to communicate with an AP without leaving a trace on the call/text logs. 

ILYBNILWY, sleeping searate, asking for an in house separation and not divorce, turning off location and changing the passcode right after suspiciously searching your phone is a series of red flags for cheating so cliche it's almost comically sad.

I'll go with she's not cheating (emotionally or physically) for now.

That leaves you with she really is done. Or, at least, she thinks she is.

She works part time and does not want to go full time? TOUGH COOKIES! If she wants to try being single, she needs to really try being single. Including the financial responsibilities of a single woman. Full time job, pay her own expenses, etc. Make that happen. She asked for an in house separation? Great! Now you can deposit your money in an account in your name and she can start paying 50% of the household expenses and 100% of her personal expenses. Give her a taste of singledom. Make it real for her. Don't do her any favors. Make her lift her own buckets and tote her own bales. If her car gets a flat, tell her to call AAA. That kind of thing. Let her see how reality lines up with what she thinks is going to happen and if she is truly happier that way. If she is, let her go. If not, tell her to work on it for real or GTFO.

And speaking of finances, check your state law. One of the reasons she may be holding off on filing the divorce papers is alimony and retirement. In my state, alimony is determined by the length of the marriage. Alimony is awarded for X number of years determined by the length of the marriage. After 19 years, alimony is lifetime. If your state has similar laws, she may know this and is delaying as long as she can to increase the number of years she will receive alimony. Claims on a spouses retirement work similarly. The longer the marriage, the bigger the percentage of retirement you are entitled to up to half.

Some states recognize in house separation and some do not. Depending on your state, sharing the house even though you call yourselves separated could mean that you aren't, in fact, legally separated. Which means the clock is still ticking on alimony and retirement. So, if you're going to be separated with no guarantees, might as well cover your azz and make it a legal separation. Talk to an attorney. More than one, if you can.

And, hon, on a more personal note... please take this as kindly as it is meant... your marriage is still bad for the kids in it's current state. It's just as damaging for them to see unaffectionate, cold, parents as it is for them to hear the screaming and yelling. Remember, you and your wife are modeling for them what marriage is. You first showed them fighting and arguing. Now you're showing them cold indifference, at worst, and apathy, at best. Would you wish the marriage you have on any one of your children? No? Of course not! You love them and you want them to grow up, find mates, and be in loving, healthy, marriages. Which is a lot less likely to happen if the marriage modeled for them is anything but.

P.S. Yes, I did see that you are from Canada. I know states are Provinces there. And that the laws are different. But I also know that the laws are sometimes very similar and that is why I advice speaking to an attorney about alimony and retirement being awarded based on length of marriage and ask about what constitutes a legal separation.

I have known of more than one woman that did exactly what your wife is doing so that she could file AFTER the marriage had lasted long enough to entitle her to lifetime alimony.


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## farsidejunky

Staying strong starts with the 180.

Google "180: The Healing Heart".


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## JohnA

What ever else if you are to heal DO NOT MOVE OUT OF THE HOUSE!!!! 

If you leave you WILL go into a deep spiral of depression, feeling alone, isolated and questioning your basic seif worth as a man and a father. So even ifbthe home must be sold, do not move out until then. 

She will fight you on this issue, do not yield. Do you want guys like the one that stabbed you around your children? While this not a topic to discussed with her as it will cause her to see it as an attack and respond as such, it is a real issue. Keep if first and foremost in your mind. 

Yes using a MC (who is actually good at their profession) is a must. Even if she will not go, you go. You need a third party who you can discuss in depth issues you cannot and should not post here.

Is she cheating? At this point the only reason to care is to drive them out of your divorce. You don't need someone whispering in their ear she is wonderful, she deserves the house and you should live in a cold basement and give you all your money so she can keep it.


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## Evinrude58

Get some anti anxiety meds. They help. Just get a lawyer and rip the bandaid off. Yes, it will be quite a painful roAd, but you will get down it just like all of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

JohnnyK said:


> How are you guys staying strong? This is going to be really hard - especially with the kids. I'm getting used to the idea of not being with her as we haven't done a lot together the past few months and she hasn't been very nice to be around anyway but the family split is really going to take a toll on me. I may need to drug myself! I already don't sleep well and can barely focus at work thinking about this all of the time. I need a mental break!


You stay strong because there really is no other choice. It helps to have kids, because they are your motivation for strength and also for setting the example. You know if you fall apart, so do they. They help you to keep moving forward.

It also helps to try to shift your focus. Its hard trying to realize that your life is no longer on the path you expected, but its good try and look at the positives that can come from it. Think of all the sh!tty feelings you have been dealing with while with her...number one, so that you aren't only focusing on the long ago GOOD parts of your marriage, and number two, to realize that you are no longer going to have to live this way any more. You are now fully responsible for everything for yourself, and it really IS empowering.


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## JohnnyK

I tried the anti-anxiety meds recently but only the minimum dose to get some sleep. Worked somewhat. I'm afraid to take a stronger dose as they are apparently highly addictive and can only be used for 2 weeks continuously anyway so it's not much of a long term fix. I did make an appointment for Monday with the doc - it was the earliest I could get in. I may talk to him about AD's. I'm having enough trouble as it is and things are about to get much worse. Never tried them before but hope you can still function on them. Not sure exactly what they will do. Can't believe I'm in a position where I would even have to think about drugging myself.


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## JohnnyK

3Xnocharm said:


> You stay strong because there really is no other choice. It helps to have kids, because they are your motivation for strength and also for setting the example. You know if you fall apart, so do they. They help you to keep moving forward.
> 
> It also helps to try to shift your focus. Its hard trying to realize that your life is no longer on the path you expected, but its good try and look at the positives that can come from it. Think of all the sh!tty feelings you have been dealing with while with her...number one, so that you aren't only focusing on the long ago GOOD parts of your marriage, and number two, to realize that you are no longer going to have to live this way any more. You are now fully responsible for everything for yourself, and it really IS empowering.


Thanks for the words of encouragement - much needed and appreciated! I really need to start focusing on the positives here, reminding myself its not all my fault, the negatives with her that I won't miss etc. If anyone knows any good websites that can help with this please send me a link.


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## Nix2

JohnnyK said:


> I tried the anti-anxiety meds recently but only the minimum dose to get some sleep. Worked somewhat. I'm afraid to take a stronger dose as they are apparently highly addictive and can only be used for 2 weeks continuously anyway so it's not much of a long term fix. I did make an appointment for Monday with the doc - it was the earliest I could get in. I may talk to him about AD's. I'm having enough trouble as it is and things are about to get much worse. Never tried them before but hope you can still function on them. Not sure exactly what they will do. Can't believe I'm in a position where I would even have to think about drugging myself.


I am assuming this is the worst thing that has ever happened to you - it was for me at the time my ex did the same thing - so cut yourself some slack. You won't need meds forever.

Ask for a prescription for BuSpar, it is a very effective anti-anxiety med that is NOT addictive. It got me through the worst of my crisis.

Pulling for you. You will look back and shake your head at all the craziness, and you will be happier. So will your children.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

Good luck with the MC. Hopefully, the counselor can help push you both out of the limbo that you're stuck in whether it's a push towards reconciling or a push towards separating. Being stuck in that awful cycle inside your head & heart is paralyzing.


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## JohnnyK

Nix2 said:


> I am assuming this is the worst thing that has ever happened to you - it was for me at the time my ex did the same thing - so cut yourself some slack. You won't need meds forever.
> 
> Ask for a prescription for BuSpar, it is a very effective anti-anxiety med that is NOT addictive. It got me through the worst of my crisis.
> 
> Pulling for you. You will look back and shake your head at all the craziness, and you will be happier. So will your children.


I've been pretty down the past few months, perhaps much longer than that going back a few years. I may have a bit of depression I'm dealing with - I can shake it some days but others the anxiety and weight of things brings me down. There has been a real lack of optimism in my life for a number of years now and that's not good psychologically and is why I am considering AD's. It was recommended by a few others over at the DB forum. Things just haven't been very good between my wife and I for a few years - maybe longer. She's never happy with me, always complaining and sorry, *****ing, at me about something. It wears you out. I have my outlets with going to the gym and running, hanging with a good friend bike riding, watching sports and having a beer, good stuff but at the end of the day my wife and I would go to bed and inevitably she would start complaining about me about something and I think this is where my sleep problems originated going back a few years. I would get stressed at bed time knowing this is the time she acts out. Now that I think about it, often we would wind down in bed for an hour not talking, just reading or watching some TV, and then turn everything off and go to bed and then 30 minutes later she would angrily start in on me about something waking me up. I would say to her that she had all evening to talk about this and you choose midnight after we've gone to sleep for a half hour to bring this up?? It was like clock work and used to cause me a lot of anxiety. Now she's out of the room and there is none of that but now the anxiety has been over losing my marriage and breaking up the family. After my conversation with the wife yesterday I must admit I am feeling so tired of living like this that I'm starting to have moments of not caring what happens anymore. If she wants to separate we will but I'm not moving out but I will want to sell the house and both of us go our ways. I can't handle the financial stress I live with day to day trying to save this house while she works part-time, she's busy, but it's not consistent. I don't want to go back to the way things where with her - I want to be happy and am tired of being treated like I'm a screw up. I guess I'm starting to get fed up with all of this.


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## farsidejunky

Good. That is the first step to true detachment.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Nix2

JohnnyK said:


> I've been pretty down the past few months, perhaps much longer than that going back a few years. I may have a bit of depression I'm dealing with - I can shake some days but others the anxiety and weight of things brings me down. Things haven't been very good between my wife and I for a few years - maybe longer. She's never happy with me, always complaining and sorry, *****ing, at me about something. It wears you out. I have my outlets with going to the gym and running, hanging with a good friend bike riding, watching sports and having a beer, good stuff but at the end of the day my wife and I would go to bed and inevitably she would start complaining about me about something and I think this is where my sleep problems originated going back a few years. I would get stressed at bed time knowing this is the time she acts out. Now that I think about it, often we would wind down in bed for an hour not talking, just reading or watching some TV, and then turn everything off and go to bed and then 30 minutes later she would angrily start in on me about something waking me up. I would say to her that she had all evening to talk about this and you choose midnight after we've gone to sleep for a half to bring this up?? It was like clock work and used to cause me a lot of anxiety. Now she's out of the room and there is none of that but now the anxiety has been over losing my marriage and breaking up the family. After my conversation with the wife yesterday I must admit I am feeling so tired of living like this that I'm starting to have moments of not caring what happens anymore. If she wants to separate we will but I'm not moving out but I will want to sell the house and both of us go our ways. I can't handle the financial stress I live with day to day trying to save this house while she works part-time, she's busy, but it's not consistent. I don't want to go back to the way things where with her - I want to be happy and am tired of being treated like I'm a screw up. I guess I'm starting to get fed up with all of this.


You are right where you should be. It's a process. And not a linear one, at that. You will go up and down, back and forth for quite a while. 

Hindsight brings a clarity and perspective that is impossible when we are in the middle of the toxic dance.

I know it's impossible to believe right now, but I have lived it, and it's true, so just hang on to faith until you can start to really believe. 

Your W's behavior toward you is not something a healthy person would accept. I say that from experience, I was extremely unhealthy with my ex, getting better with my current but still not completely there. 

You will see this as a blessing in time. So sorry for your pain in the meantime.


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## farsidejunky

Moving forward, you need to become intimately familiar with a few things. 

You see, the complaining is going to amp up as the divorce process begins. She will continue to try and use you as her emotional punching bag. 

The problem for her is you are no longer obligated to do so since you are separating enroute to divorce.

"Listening to your complaints is the role of a husband, not a soon-to-be ex-husband." Then walk away.

If she continues to complain:

"I am sorry you feel that way."

If she still complains:

"Are you done?"

If she does any of this in a rude manner:

"I am not okay with x (*****ing, raising your voice, screaming, whatever applies in this situation)."

When you use these statements, you need to be with a former poster used to call CFD: cool, firm, and dispassionate.

Your wife is an emotional vampire, that feeds off of the emotional energy she generates with her drama. These statements will keep you from engaging, and keep her from being fed. It will also help you in detaching.

One more thing you need to do. Google the Karpman Drama Triangle. After reading about it, come back and discuss how it applies to the relationship with your wife.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## turnera

JohnnyK said:


> I tried the anti-anxiety meds recently but only the minimum dose to get some sleep. Worked somewhat. I'm afraid to take a stronger dose as they are apparently highly addictive and can only be used for 2 weeks continuously anyway so it's not much of a long term fix. I did make an appointment for Monday with the doc - it was the earliest I could get in. I may talk to him about AD's. I'm having enough trouble as it is and things are about to get much worse. Never tried them before but hope you can still function on them. Not sure exactly what they will do. Can't believe I'm in a position where I would even have to think about drugging myself.


I've occasionally needed a temporary AD (three to six months) and I've literally had no side effects. Can't even tell I'm taking anything except that the panic attacks stopped and maybe felt a little more able to take on the world. I've used Paxil by itself or in combination with Wellbutrin.


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## turnera

You know what? Since she's only working part time, and since she's so unhappy, I suggest that you move forward as if honoring her wishes. 

Start taking stock of your financials and start CHANGING things to act as though you're divorcing. Let her get that dose of reality. If you really have to have cable, slash it to the most basic level to save money. If you have to have internet, slash it to the cheapest, slowest one. Cancel the gym memberships. Cut up the department store credit cards. Start putting half of your money in a separate account (don't touch it, just take it out of the 'marriage pot') so there's less for her to spend. Stop giving her spending money and tell her it'll have to come out of whatever job SHE chooses to work. Buy prepaid gift cards to the grocery store instead of leaving money in the bank account - let her see what it's like to try to budget groceries once she's living on her own. Cancel magazines, book clubs, etc. Cancel that summer camp or the second vacation.

She wants life without you? Let her get a taste of it.

This is one of the biggest issues I've seen over the years - entitled women somehow have a REALLY hard time understanding where the money comes from and that they won't get to keep raking it in. Sometimes it wakes them up. But even if it doesn't, you're going to have to do this stuff anyway.


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## JohnnyK

To be honest, my initial motivation for getting her to the MC was reconciliation but I'm at the point where it needs to go one way or the other because I can't continue on like this. I think after my conversation with the wife yesterday and seeing her reaction and further *****ing a little switch went off that I can't deal with this anymore. I can't walk around on egg shells being nice to her while being given the cold shoulder and treated like ****. The MC is going to have separation forms ready to go through with us when we arrive. If she really wants separation, we'll go through and plan out the separation. If she wants reconciliation, this will be her chance but I'm doubtful.

I'll try and keep CFD: cool, firm, and dispassionate in mind. It's a lot easier once you get some distance and true detachment.

As for the AD's, on top of all of martial stuff I'm dealing with insecure contract work and financial issues so it's all a mountain of stress. On a good point, the place I'm working at on contract sounds like they may offer me full-time work (salary, 4 weeks vacation, benefits etc) which is great. But, it's a big step down in money but at this point I need some security. It will most certainly mean selling the house as I'll no longer be able to afford it even it we do stay together. When it rains it pours and I'm now starting to get calls for other contracts and I'm not sure what to do - stay contract and make more money or switch to full-time assuming I do get an offer and the salary is in the range I expect. Got to look at the upside, at least I have some options . Anyway, I think I may need some AD's to get through all of this - I do need some relief from anxiety (and better sleep) and need more of that uplift to be "able to take on the world". Dealing with a lot right now. I would have to somehow hide them from the wife as well!


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## Tron

On the financial and work side of things, if this goes to divorce and alimony/child support is a factor, then you need to consult with an attorney and figure out which way (full time or contract work) saves you the most money in the long term. 

As far as the wife, eggshells, midnight b!tch sessions, etc. that is truly a F'd up dynamic. Your W has issues that have nothing to do with you brother. 

Have you looked into her possibly having a personality disorder? 

Either way, this won't get better without a dose of harsh reality and a complete change in dynamic (if that's even possible).


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## Evinrude58

When you're going through this, there's no refuge from the pain. It hurts so badly, one wants to do anything to avoid it. I did. Just remember a man tries to do the right thing, even if it's the hard thing.
I think you're doing the right thing.

My best friend is a doctor, and wrote me a Zoloft prescript. I was having panic attacks and such after learning of my wife's infidelity and reading and seeing what she was doing and wanting a divorce. It's embarrassing, but it is what it is. The Zoloft really helped and after about 6 weeks, I quit the stuff. It's not habit forming afaik. 

It's not an anti depressant, it's anti-anxiety.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

Zoloft IS an anti-depressant, its one in the class of SSRI's.


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## Evinrude58

Hmm I stand corrected, either way, it was helpful
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnnyK

I found a support group in my area for divorced or separating etc dads. Sounds like a lot of free legal advice and the experiences of other fathers. I'll attend the next session which is next Wednesday. I called around to 5 different law firms and they want anywhere from $400 - $700 an hour for consultation! Whatever happened to a free consultation!

As for AD's, I was told by another dad in similar circumstances that Lexapro is very good.

Thanks everyone!


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## LaceyW

If I may, Cymbalta is another good one. Zoloft was a really good one to take, I unfortunately had to stop because of a side effect that I was having. I just couldn't stop trembling lol. I really hope that you find the help and support you need, and I sincerely hope that you are to find the happiness and comfort soon that you and your children so clearly deserve. 

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## JohnnyK

My W and I still hang out with our mutual friends but don't talk to each other when we are out and with them. Last night there was few people getting together at a friends back yard and as I am studying for an exam and have had enough of this situation said she should go ahead without me (she went and I stayed home). She texted me today saying our best friend couple wanted to have us over for dinner and I said go ahead without me (we've been doing these sort of things regularly until now) and she says 'well they won't without you so I'll just say no'. I didn't respond. I get another text a few minutes later saying 'So you just aren't doing anything with me anymore - is that how you're handling it?'. I didn't respond. She met me at my sons baseball game and asked if I saw the text and if I was going to respond. I said I will later. She said I just want to know if this is the way things are going to be from now on and I told her first and foremost I'm studying but I don't see what difference it makes in any case (was referring to the current state of our relationship but couldn't really talk where we were). I don't understand what she expects. She said something about being friends and I thought to myself I'm not looking for my wife to be just friends. That was earlier this afternoon and I thought about bringing it back up with her but I'm going to let it go and leave it all until we go to the MC Tuesday to discuss anything more. I have no idea what she is thinking. At this point I just want to know if she is done with me, then let me know 100% so I can move on. If she still has feelings for me, then also let me know. I've made my feelings and intentions clear - I can't handle this limbo anymore.


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## Lostinthought61

Why are you putting the ball in her court, prrhaps it's time to take the ball away and make the decision for her.


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## MEM2020

Johnny,

What I like a LOT in this recent set of posts is the unflinching honesty.

So let me help you understand what's happening here.

Your wife doesn't want to be with you anymore. Her reasons are - numerous - in her own mind - but in truth they all fall into a very short list of buckets. 

Sadly, because she is financially dependent on you - she wants YOU to still want her - as her backup plan. We call this being the Plan B guy.

So the text exchange - was a very typical request for reassurance. 

Your best move actually looks something like this:

It's obvious the marriage is dead. And that we both ought make a good faith effort to part amicably. As long as you don't try to squeeze every last nickel out of me in the divorce, I can keep it amicable on my side.

-----------
It is VERY normal for a financially dependent wife to try very hard to keep you on the hook. 

-----------
So your best move here is to say what's true - with compassion

----------
I know the financial part of this can be scary. And we both know that for a while finances will be tighter for both of us. But that's a bad reason to try and convince ourselves this marriage can be fixed. It can't. There's too much resentment and anger for that to happen.

We are BOTH gonna be ok.







JohnnyK said:


> My W and I still hang out with our mutual friends but don't talk to each other when we are out and with them. Last night there was few people getting together at a friends back yard and as I am studying for an exam and have had enough of this situation said she should go ahead without me (she went and I stayed home). She texted me today saying our best friend couple wanted to have us over for dinner and I said go ahead without me (we've been doing these sort of things regularly until now) and she says 'well they won't without you so I'll just say no'. I didn't respond. I get another text a few minutes later saying 'So you just aren't doing anything with me anymore - is that how you're handling it?'. I didn't respond. She met me at my sons baseball game and asked if I saw the text and if I was going to respond. I said I will later. She said I just want to know if this is the way things are going to be from now on and I told her first and foremost I'm studying but I don't see what difference it makes in any case (was referring to the current state of our relationship but couldn't really talk where we were). I don't understand what she expects. She said something about being friends and I thought to myself I'm not looking for my wife to be just friends. That was earlier this afternoon and I thought about bringing it back up with her but I'm going to let it go and leave it all until we go to the MC Tuesday to discuss anything more. I have no idea what she is thinking. At this point I just want to know if she is done with me, then let me know 100% so I can move on. If she still has feelings for me, then also let me know. I've made my feelings and intentions clear - I can't handle this limbo anymore.


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## JohnnyK

Having one of those bad emotional days as of the moment I woke up this morning. The reality of the situation is slowly sinking in and inescapable and I broke down for a good half hour this morning (pulled it together just seconds before my wife entered the room to get some clothes). I so want things to work out between us but she is so completely checked out these days - which is why it surprised me yesterday her being upset about us not doing things together. But MEM11363, you are probably right - she may just be stringing me along to try and keep the house as long as possible and keep me emotionally invested in her. I've even started to wonder if me getting a full-time job would make things better for us but perhaps it's just a way for her to ensure she'll get support payments. I didn't used to think she would do these sort of things and still have a hard time believing it but at this point, she is emotionally checked out and going on with her life. My being there with her obviously does not matter. I don't know what she wants anymore. I'm trying to refrain from talking to her about any of this until we go see the MC Tuesday. I think the MC intends to present separation forms and go through them with us and see what happens. When I think of the kids and the bomb that is going to get dropped on them it quite honestly brings me to tears. These poor kids - all they want is a happy family. What they are about to get is their parents spliting up and selling the family home. Their family life is about to be ripped from beneath their feet. I don't think my W even cares (or somehow doesn't truly think selling the house will actually happen).

Let me ask you guys this, and I'm being very honest here, I'm living afraid of losing her but she is slowly slipping away anyway. When we go to see the MC Tuesday and the MC starts going through the separation forms I believe the MC is going to use this as an opportunity to sort of double check we both want to go through with this. I'm going to defer to my wife to answer first for sure and see where that goes - sure it will be nothing positive. When it comes to me, I don't want to play games and want to be honest but at the same time I want to be firm and maintain my dignity (it's all I have left at this point). So do I say I only see two options moving forward, 1) if my wife no longer has any feelings for me then we need to separate and sell the house and move on with our lives (or am I setting something in motion too soon here), 2) If she still has feelings for me, we should talk about this further, if for nothing else to be able to say to the kids that we tried everything to save the marriage. I'm trying to avoid grey area options like one of us moving out or building a basement apartment and one of us living in there (these are 2 options my wife suggested besides selling the house). Neither one of these are realistic.

My message to my wife on Tuesday really is that this is the fork in the road for us and our family. We either work together to save it or we tear it all apart.

On the subject of moving out, I've read all sorts of conflicting articles about one of the parties moving out, how sometimes it can save a marriage but most often on these forums I've read that it doesn't help. My W has brought up me moving out a number of times over the past 6 months with the apparent intent for her to see is she misses me and then potentially rekindle our relationship. I'm not sure she even feels this way anymore to be honest - she seems done. What's been your experience with this? I'm not speaking from a legal perspective, just potential reconciliation.


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## turnera

Women only want strong men. Who know what they want. Who won't compromise. The 180 is the ONLY way she will ever remember she has feelings for you - when she sees you will NOT be her friend, that she FIRED you as her friend by taking this path. But you're a strong man, so you'll be fine: if your wife doesn't want you, you don't want your wife and you will move on.

That's who she needs to see from you. THAT man she might start pining for. 

You had a good opportunity when she asked about being friends to say "If you don't want me as your husband, I don't want you as my friend - I reserve that for my WIFE. And since you don't want to be my wife, you will soon be out of my life except for kid exchange, and I will move on and find someone who WANTS me to be their friend and lover."

That's the only kind of action I've ever seen wake a woman up out of her 'I've got to chase the 'feelings' crap.'


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## JohnnyK

I guess that's kind of where I'm going with this. The fork in the road, you are either with me or you're not. I do like how you phrased this though - I'll probably borrow it. I feel like texting this to her now but that's an emotional reaction and think I just need to wait until the MC session Tuesday.

As for the friend thing, if I'm honest, I've been too insecure to take a complete hard line and have been trying to leave doors open but it's not working. The biggest reaction I got out of her the past 6 months is this past weekend when I told her I called the MC to make an appointment for us to see her to help us work through a separation amicably. She said I blind sided her with this. I'm slowly starting to feel like I've tried everything I can to get her back short of doing something stupid like begging and pleading (not going there). I guess it's a process and when you are ready to make a stand, you will. I'm just about there but still am wresting with it. I still love her so this is very very hard. I don't want to wallow at the MC meeting, I want to have a plan in place and stick to it as much as I'll be hurting inside. I do need to draw a line and say to her, are you in or out?

What do you guys think for an approach at the MC session?


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## Evinrude58

Groveling, pleading, asking, crying, or anything other than clear consequences of treating you like yesterday's garbage will definitely get results. The result is that she will feel empowered and repulsed at the sane time. 

I truly think, even though I wasn't string enough to do it, that your only hope is to forget the separation agreement and file for divorce and let her see how life really is without your emotional support, and with as little financial support as possible.

She will never see how valuable you are unless you take yourself away from her. You can always stop a divorce, and even remarry after. But, once these women get drunk on the power they have over a man who loves them no matter what they do--- they will abuse that power in many horrid ways. It's just how it is.

I would skip the mc and go to divorce. She needs to be called out and see what she has to lose, and hopefully she will want to work with you On Fixing your marriage. As long as it's just you that wants it, you are screwed. That's fact.

Ask yourself if you are string enough to do this. Either you are, or you will divorce. Weakness always results in divorce. I can ten you because I was the weak one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

You think you are showing her a poker face? She sees that insecurity a mile away. You have started to show her in the last 48 hours, and look what she does? She feels you slipping away.

Your approach should be EXACTLY what @turnera2 said, with one addendum.

The only thing I would add is that you really see no other option at this point because she is unwilling to look at her contribution to the dysfunction, and you won't remain married to someone who has this approach, either. 

"Either we both work on the problems together, learn to be patient with each others faults as we work through them, and focus on finding our way back to loving each other under the same roof, or I will see no other choice but to end it."

Be prepared. She will likely have become angry at this. Right now, she needs to blame you for her problems. This approach single handedly takes away her ability to do so.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## turnera

JohnnyK said:


> What do you guys think for an approach at the MC session?


"I'm here to find out how to move on since she feels I'm not what she wants."

And if she balks, "Then tell me why I should believe you want to be married to me."

Put her on the defensive.


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## MEM2020

Johnny,
Tone - wise - Turnera is exactly right. 

I'm just going to give you a primer in the semantics of emotion. 

People lie about how they feel - ALL the time. So your wife - may dispute the statement below. But if she does she will be lying. 

It's toxic to call someone a liar. However, this works well as a sibstitute: 

(Smiling you say) If contempt and hostility and frustration were actually signs of love, I'd be the most loved man in our state.

And then just give a shrug of acceptance. Because you're not making a sales pitch, just describing reality.

I think your wife has a difficult temperment. Likes to argue with you. Might dispute your statement.

Let her talk/dispute you and when she's done - just nod at the counselor and say: I'd like you to help us try and keep this amicable.

This is where it's likely your wife will try to bully you into delaying. She will berate you for giving up easy. 

This is when you sit back - and let her melt down - don't interrupt and don't look like you WANT TO. Let her ramble on. 

Don't ask what her part in this mess is. That's her job not yours. 

Just turn back to the counselor and say: Well, you know what I want, an amicable parting. I never said it would be easy. 

Your wife MIGHT just hear how ugly she is - if you choose not to respond to her. But it's unlikely. 





turnera2 said:


> "I'm here to find out how to move on since she feels I'm not what she wants."
> 
> And if she balks, "Then tell me why I should believe you want to be married to me."
> 
> Put her on the defensive.


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## JohnnyK

I wish I could remember all these one liners in the moment! I just need to keep it simple and from the perspective of "I'm here to find out how to move on since she feels I'm not what she wants." I'm not what she wants, it's as simple as that. She likely won't disagree so not expecting much of a response. I really need to dig deep to find some resolve to draw that line in the sand at this point. I guess my fear is she isn't sure at the moment. But would more of this make things better, not likely, things are only getting worse with every passing day. It's a really tough hole to get out of when you've shown the person you still love them in-spite of the way they are treating you - and it's all my fault to boot! How did I get brainwashed into all of this!!

All of these statements are really helpful though, gives me the proper perspective to approach from. I'm not ready for delivering divorce papers but who knows a month or two down the road. As I keep being reminded (BTW thank-you for that), this is a process, and I'm probably still early in the full spectrum of the emotions. I'm looking forward to anger, I can't handle anymore of the these hurt feelings and anxiety that goes along with it. It's been an emotional roller coaster and I'm finding the highs and lows getting more intense and frequent. I know you all are going through the same thing - it really sucks that so many of us have to go through this torturous pain for such a prolonged period of time. And if you have kids, still see the ex every week - that's the worse part. At least back in the dating days once you break up you didn't see them anymore. In this scenario, we get the joy of being reminded of it all every week! Not looking forward to that.


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## JohnnyK

BTW - I just learned what gaslighting is, I was very shocked at how much I identify with the symptoms and examples. Explains a lot - makes me mad! I've always knew she was an emotional bully but this is a whole new level.


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## Absurdist

Good luck today JohnnyK. Remember.... cool, calm and dispassionate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnnyK

Just got back from the MC session and things went the way I figured they would. The MC first asked my W what her hopes and wants are and she just said to separate amicably. The MC then asked do you see any chance for reconciliation or are you done, W said she is done then went on to give examples of the things I've done and said and she can't let go of basically. It was all a little longer winded than all this but you get the idea. MC then asked me the same questions and I said I had hoped that we would reconcile up until about a week ago after the last talk between my W and I have. I said that during that conversation my W again blamed me for the reasons we are in this situation and didn't take any ownership of the problems she has created and led to the demise of our marriage. That and she told me she isn't in love with me anymore, and has told me in the past she doesn't respect me and doesn't want to be around me. I said, at that point I realized I didn't see a way back for our marriage. MC said so are you saying you are done and won't work on the marriage and I said, based on what my wife has said to me, yes I'm done, there is nothing there for me to get back to. It wasn't easy but I stayed strong and didn't waiver in my position. 

We then proceeded to go through an entire separation workbook of all the considerations (living arrangements, kids, financials etc) we need to think about and document in this booklet. Even talked about sex with other people and that if we weren't 100% sure that we might not get back together that any sex with someone else would need to be protected sex with a condom etc (these were the MC examples). Her point in going through all of this was to dump the reality of what we are about to embark on - it's very sobering. We both just sat there and answered questions nodded that we understood each section etc. There is a lot we need to plan out, the biggest of which is the house and what we are going do with it considering we have kids. It was a 2.5 hour session and was a lot to take in and process but I was fine at the meeting (I took .5mg Lorazapam before we went). So I don't have too much to say right now as it was a lot to take in but for the first time ever in this process I'm really starting to wonder if separation isn't better for us in the long run. A week ago this discussion with the MC would have ripped my heart out. What changed for me was hearing my W say ILYBINILWY. That was for me when I gave up hope. And that hope was really taking a toll on me. I'm not saying I'm 100% over the possibility of reconciliation, more that my direction and focus has really done a 180 towards separation and reconciliation would be unexpected outcome if were to occur.

The only point were my W slightly wavered was when she said she isn't 100% sure about anything right now (the MC asked if she was sure about all of this). I didn't say anything. When were leaving, my W used the bathroom and the MC said to me you can't change someone's mind and I said I know (was thinking of all you guys, we all remind each other that we can't change or control our spouses, only ourselves).

I don't think my W and I will talk about any of this until after the weekend. My youngest son is going to a friends cottage for the weekend (long weekend coming - Canada Day) and I'm taking my 14 year old son to a massive camp ground (it's hardly a campground - 40 ft permanent trailers with pizza shops, water slides, live bands etc) where two of our friends have family trailers. My sister and her family will be there along with some of my other good friends so will be comforting for me and a good time to do some bonding with my son (if i can pull him out of the paint ball forest for an hour or so - I may go play with him). W will be home with an empty house (rare - we've always done things as a family) but all her girlfriends live on the same block so I suspect a lot of wine drinking this weekend!

Oh, saw the doc last night and was prescribed Cipralex (that's the brand name in Canada, same as Lexapro in US). Started it this morning, probably should have waited until tomorrow but wanted to get going on the stuff. Felt a little dizzy, had some diarrhea, sweaty and jitters but by the evening (for the MC session) most everything had settled down. Doubt one dose would have helped with dealing with the issues today but who knows.

So, in a nutshell things don't look good - we seem to be proceeding with separation, it's just a matter of working out the details.

Anyway, there's a quick update. Thanks for all your support folks!


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## farsidejunky

End it.

She resents you so much that she has no interest in doing anything with it except punishing you.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## turnera

Start acting divorced immediately. Stop giving her any money. Start canceling cable, etc. Start boxing stuff up that you want and moving it to the garage. Let her see the house starting to empty out. Start doing things by yourself or only with the kids, not her. Do NOT be her friend. Most women like her expect you to still talk and socialize - SCREW that, and let her see what life without your friendship looks like.

And if she calls you out on it, just say "I love you and I want to stay married to you. But if you don't want it, I won't hold you here. I'm moving on to give you what you say you want."

In my experience, this path is the only thing that has brought a woman back from the brink.


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## Evinrude58

Forget about her changing her mind or having hope. Once a woman changes her mind about a man Nd you get the ILYBINILWY speech, it's over. It has been for a long time.

Realize that as another poster said, she will punish you, show you things are "about her now", etcetera. It's not a fun process. But don't be afraid. You will make it and you will be happier than you have in a long time. It will just take some time to happen.
You're really doing well. I was in tears almost daily at this point. And I'm not a crier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme

Maybe no right now but soon you need to give yourself the possibly of hope for a good future with someone else. Remember your life doesn't end with the marriage.


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## threelittlestars

Wow, Hugs. If you want to salvage and Reconcile she must FACE THE REALITIES OF HER CHOICE! 

Like Tunera said Box up stuff and show her that you are strong and READY TO MOVE ON without her.


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## TheTruthHurts

Sorry you are here but glad you are moving away from uncertainty, which can cause limitless grief.

I wouldn't read any indecision on her part as hope to you.

Instead, read it as concern about leaving your safe protection.

It's not about you; its fear of living alone.

So move forward, my friend.


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## JohnnyK

Hi guys,

What came out of the MC sessions was the resentment my W still has for me on a few specific incidents that she feels I never properly apologized to her about. While I apologized I understand why she says that as I mitigated and minimized my actions in this one particular instance when, in this case, was completely my fault and she got hurt badly. I know you are all going to tell me don't send her a letter but it is an apology letter taking ownership of my mistakes etc. I'll post a draft below to get some feedback but understand that I do owe this woman an apology for many things that I have done over the years and I never have addressed (this is where a lot of the resentment is). I haven't been the the ideal husband and I haven't apologized much for it over the years either. Even if we do split up having sent this letter may make things a little easier going post split managing the kids etc. Just some background, I had attempted anal sex with my W (we had talked about it previously but I sprung on her in the shower - she was physically hurt and broke down crying - I felt horrible). The rest is just about the overall relationship.

Anyway, here it is, let the bashing begin 

"Back in November I really hurt you physically and mentally and I’ve carried that shame and guilt around with me every day since. I’ve had a lot of difficulty talking about it for a few reasons and I should have said this all to you then. First, I’m ashamed of what I did to you, how I made you feel and for your trust, respect and feelings of love I lost in that moment. I’ll never forget the look on your face and how I made you cry. I’ve never felt so awful and ashamed in my life and still carry that around with me to this day. Second, I was so afraid of this incident affecting our relationship but I knew it would. I know I said I was sorry and did mean it but I did try to mitigate and minimize my actions in an attempt to lessen the damage which was wrong and I completely understand why you would feel like you never got a proper apology. It was something that the moment it happened I wished I could take back – but you can’t. I didn’t consider your past history and how much more this would and did affect you. You’ve never needed to say much to me about it, because I saw it all in your eyes then and since--betrayal, disillusionment, revulsion. In that moment, I just wanted to crawl under a rock somewhere and hide. I didn’t mean to harm you but I didn’t consider your feelings either. But I understand the gravity of what I've done, my actions have filled me with self-loathing and remorse. It's difficult for me to look in the mirror knowing how deeply I hurt you. I don't think I have ever been so disappointed in myself. I have no excuse for what happened and saying "I'm sorry" again hardly seems adequate. You know me well enough to know that this was completely out of character for me and not something that would ever happen again even if we were to get back together. No matter what happens to us, I hope you can one day forgive me but I don’t expect it.

I also wanted to express my deepest regrets over how I have treated you at times over the years. I am sorry that I did not help you more around the house or with the finances until a few months ago. You carried a heavy load alone for years and that was disrespectful of me. Please forgive me for all the fights and things I’ve said in the heat of an argument, whether it was in anger or not. Sometimes we say cruel things just to get a reaction – but I don’t really feel that way – it’s wrong. Someone who is in love with you should NEVER do that. Instead of trying to hurt you like I did, I wish I would have learned how to talk rationally. I didn’t have to always be right. I wish I would have heard this saying YEARS ago…”Would you rather be right, or happy?”. I should have learned how to listen and express myself. I wish I would have known back then how to think instead of react. How to listen instead of be defensive. How to love instead of fight. I am sorry for my defensiveness. I am sorry that I took you for granted. I thought that no matter what, you would always be there. I should have looked at each day with you as the gift that it was. I should have loved you to the point that you NEVER had to wonder. I am sorry I let my pride get in the way of our love. Over the past six months I wanted to talk to you from the heart to breakdown the wall, to touch you, to kiss you, to simply be with you, but I didn’t let myself because of pride. I would sometimes watch you sleep in our bed just longing to touch you but wouldn’t do it. I should have realized what my pride was doing to us, how it was helping create a further chasm between us. I should have been a more equal partner in the relationship. I am sorry you had to live like you were walking on eggshells at times. I was probably hard to get along with these past few years. I was feeling down about work and finances, but the bright star in my day was always coming home to you and the kids – I instantly felt happy again. I’m so sorry for taking out my frustrations and unhappiness on you when you were just trying to help me. I could be a jerk at times that didn’t deserve your love. I am sorry I didn’t always show you the love and respect you deserved. I used to often show you my love through affection (hugs, kisses, hand hold on the couch) – I hope you won’t forget these things – they used to be an everyday part of our life and that I miss. I have no excuses for any of the above. I own it all. I have learned a lot of lessons these past 6 months, relationship and communication skills that I wish I had learned a long time ago but I didn’t have a role model. It seems these lessons may have come too late for our marriage and what would be the tragic breakup of our family. I am sorry.

I didn’t know how to deal with you pulling away from me the past 6 months (and 6 months prior) and I had no one to talk to about it and so I just backed off and gave you space hoping just some time away from me would help (stupid – I know). That probably created more problems. I know I haven’t handled everything the best but my intent was always to bring us back together – I didn’t do very well. I can only pray I have not completely hardened your heart towards me. I truly am sorry, and I hope you understand that I feel terrible for putting you through so much pain. I can't stand to see the tears in your eyes, and I feel horrible for causing them. 

I have no expectations from this letter, I just wanted to say some things to you that I should have said a long time ago. I want to thank you for all the wonderful memories as a couple and family that I wouldn’t have without you. The good times have by far outweighed any bad. We as people just tend to remember those bad times more often."


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## Marc878

It doesn't hurt to apologize for your wrongdoings. However, you need to tell her. Writing a letter doesn't mean the same thing. You've written it well but you should tell her face to face.

IMO. 

Good luck


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## Absurdist

I agree with Marc. You need to do it face to face. If it makes you fell better, send the letter as well. Quite frankly JohnnyK, she will not even make to the end of the first sentence. This is an exercise you are doing for yourself. Your wife has checked out long before the November shower episode.


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## JohnnyK

Face to face is probably a good idea - I'll plan to do that. I don't know what she'll say at this point to be honest. Probably nothing but it's something I want to say to her. 

I'm also going to move out of the master bedroom into our basement and let her take the bedroom for a while. She's been on a futon bed in her office (another bedroom in the house) for 3 months now and she expressed how hard it's been sleeping this way so long. I'll take a turn for a while until we see where things end up going.


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## Evinrude58

I wrote a long letter to my ex when we were together, based on an article I read about a "hardened wife".
All it did was give my ex ammo to use against me ever since. I really wish I had never written it. What you're doing is what I did--- giving her a plain and clear excuse list for 
Divorcing you. I wish you wouldn't send it. You're trying to nice her back. It never works. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnnyK

Evinrude58 said:


> I wrote a long letter to my ex when we were together, based on an article I read about a "hardened wife".
> All it did was give my ex ammo to use against me ever since. I really wish I had never written it. What you're doing is what I did--- giving her a plain and clear excuse list for
> Divorcing you. I wish you wouldn't send it. You're trying to nice her back. It never works.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's a good point. With that in mind I'll probably print it and read it to her rather than send a digital copy. 

I think I read the same article. It all depends on where our wives heads are at I guess. Mine is hard as a rock right now so I'm not expecting anything from it but it's worth a try.


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## Tron

Evinrude58 said:


> I wrote a long letter to my ex when we were together, based on an article I read about a "hardened wife".
> All it did was give my ex ammo to use against me ever since. I really wish I had never written it. What you're doing is what I did--- giving her a plain and clear excuse list for
> Divorcing you. I wish you wouldn't send it. You're trying to nice her back. It never works.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with this.

Putting it down on paper is good to help you get it out of your system, but I wouldn't give that to her. You never know what she might do with it later. Hell, she might show it to the kids as proof that you were the one responsible for the failure of the marriage.


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## JohnnyK

Tron said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> Putting it down on paper is good to help you get it out of your system, but I wouldn't give that to her. You never know what she might do with it later. Hell, she might show it to the kids as proof that you were the one responsible for the failure of the marriage.


True - you never know - better to be safe than sorry. I could read it to her and let her read it again while I'm there if she wants but I wouldn't leave her the printed copy. 

The things we need to worry about!!??


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## Evinrude58

I wish I could stress how important it is to realize when you're whipped.
Your ex didn't check out this morning. She made this decision a long time ago. There is zero you can so or say to change her mind. Logic means NOTHING.
You weren't a perfect husband????
Well neither is any other man.
You would seriously have a better chance if getting her back of you slapped her, told her you never wanted to see her again, and walked out and never said another word.
But instead, you're going to spend hours reinforcing in her mind all the reasons she thinks she should leave.
She will be repulsed and see you as a weakling if you don't just go.

She wants a divorce, giver her one. What else can you do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## convert

Evinrude58 said:


> I wish I could stress how important it is to realize when you're whipped.
> Your ex didn't check out this morning. She made this decision a long time ago. There is zero you can so or say to change her mind. Logic means NOTHING.
> You weren't a perfect husband????
> Well neither is any other man.
> You would seriously have a better chance if getting her back of you slapped her, told her you never wanted to see her again, and walked out and never said another word.
> But instead, you're going to spend hours reinforcing in her mind all the reasons she thinks she should leave.
> She will be repulsed and see you as a weakling if you don't just go.
> 
> She wants a divorce, giver her one. What else can you do?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree.

reading the letter to her will just reinforce in her mind she is right


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## Nix2

Just returned from a vacation with my W - I see that OP is continuing along his path.

Please consider IC for yourself. You are where I was about three years ago, willingly taking the blame and guilt she's shoveling on you.

In the end, based on everything you've shared with us and my own personal experience, my guess is you'll see that this was ALWAYS all about her.

Perfect people don't exist. Sometimes sex goes wrong. It doesn't make you bad or evil, and it certainly doesn't destroy a marriage.

Rewriting history, or framing past events in a way that demonizes the left-behind spouse, is a classic power trip played by people like your W. Don't fall for it.

Be strong for your kids - ESPECIALLY if they are boys (which I think they are?). You want to model strong, calm, confident masculinity for them.

Thinking of you on this 4th of July.


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## Begin again

Nix2 said:


> I was thrown for a loop when my ex, over a period of a few years, started to say things like: "It's not you, it's me;" "I don't know what's wrong with me," "I love you but I'm not sure it's sexual anymore," and on and on it goes.


I don't want to thread jack, but how could you be thrown for a loop when your spouse was saying these things over a period of years? The first or second time might have been a bit of a shocker.... but those things don't come out of thin air. If your wife isn't sure she's into you sexually anymore, I would think you'd notice that in the bedroom long before she actually said the words.


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## sapientia

Evinrude58 said:


> I wrote a long letter to my ex when we were together, based on an article I read about a "hardened wife".
> All it did was give my ex ammo to use against me ever since. I really wish I had never written it. What you're doing is what I did--- giving her a plain and clear excuse list for
> Divorcing you. I wish you wouldn't send it. You're trying to nice her back. It never works.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wish someone would make an "Incredibles" version of No Capes for these situations: "No Letters!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M68ndaZSKa8


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## tropicalbeachiwish

@JohnnyK Did you read her the letter?


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## Corpuswife

My first husband was like your wife. We were married 25 years. I couldn't figure our why he "loved me but was no longer in love with me." 

He was working full time, home at the normal hours, participating in family life, etc. Nothing was different....except his detachment.

I thought maybe he was addicted to porn; maybe he was gay; maybe he was having an affair; maybe it was a midlife crisis; maybe he was depressed.

I did my own investigative work...back then. I looked the computer history; the cell phone bill/log; and I asked questions. I found one late night call on his cell phone, after he went to a fundraiser. I had a friend call and ask the number who they were. It was "Angela." 

A year later we divorced. I tried it all, prior to our divorce, with begging; I was going to move; I was going to stay and he could move (if he wanted); I detached; No contact; Marriage counseling; individual counseling....Nothing worked. Nothing worked because I couldn't do anything if the OTHER person wasn't willing to stay invested in the relationship.

We divorced; moved on; dated and remarried. Guess who he married? "Angela."

Years later, he apologized. Regretted the divorced; took full responsibility (it wasn't ALL his) and stated the "grass wasn't greener."

He was having an affair. She lived in another city. Maybe it was emotional; maybe physical but it was energy taken outside of the marriage.

Food for thought. Your wife is unhappy and not invested in your relationship. There is nothing for you to do but get your act together (as best as you can) and be the best you. She quit along time ago. She married and staying due to her interests and perhaps the children but it's not for you. It's hard to not have hope when they are in the same household, even though they are detached. 

Sorry for you and your kids. This is always painful and there is no other way around it.


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## 3Xnocharm

@JohnnyK how are things going?


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