# MEN: Don't lose him



## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

You're a nice-guy, a rescuer, a happy loner, intelligent, financially independent, a good provider, a rock. You have a beautiful wife, amazing children, long lasting marriage, a house, cars, retirement plan, vacations...

As a man you take pride in being all of that.

.
.
.
.

*DON'T*


None of it matters when you one day realize how badly you've let yourself dissolve in others' personalities. There is no "you" anywhere to be found. He's gone. Buried under years of neglect, loneliness and abuse (inflicted by you).

You are now a badly damaged codependent.


Others will commend you for being the way you are. 

*THEY'RE WRONG*

There's nothing good and right about who you've become. In fact you haven't become anybody. You are nobody. The person you were born as is no longer living. He's been dead for a long time. You just look like him in a very unattractive way. You're not even sex-worthy, let alone love-worthy.


She no longer loves you. How could she? You're a nobody. Women don't like nobodies.

Stop the madness by following these steps without backtracking: (I'll call them Synthetic's 10 Commandments )

========================================

*Synthetic's 10 Commandments*:

1. Read this link - *Just Let Them Go*

2. Follow the following rules: *The 180 degree rules*

3. Read this short book in the next 24 hours: *No More Mr. Nice Guy
* 
4. Separate all finances and stop supporting her 'single' lifestyle

5. Book a counseling appointment ASAP

6. Doesn't matter how you do it, but *sweat the pain of anxiety out*. Treadmills are your best friend. Use them. This is very important: You need to physically feel spent before you hit bed every night. 

7. Think a lot, read a lot, and cry as needed - This particular link should be open in your browser at all times and read multiple times: *DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?*

8. Find your social worth by socializing with as many people as possible (females work better). Spend time with friends, but don't just settle for your circle of friends. This is the best time to make new ones and feel attractive/attracted. You're not looking for sex or a relationship. You're looking for natural human attraction between you and others.

9. Do whatever it takes to go on a trip that involves a long flight, preferably to a country where English or your first language is not spoken

10. Start living an 'overly' fun life without feeling any guilt. This is the hardest task ahead. It's important to wash the guilt out of yourself once you have realized where it originates from via all the reading and counseling you've done.
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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Gee whiz. While I understand your underlying message, I doubt that this is going to be helpful for anyone. It's really angry and aggressive, for one thing.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

It's the truth. The truth hurts.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Don't beat yourself up like this. Marriage does require a good deal of compromise, and your wife took advantage of your giving nature. 

I hope that you are able to release your anger, and that you will eventually start to heal from all this hurt.

Both my husband and my son are nice guys, and I dearly love this trait. However, you need to establish boundaries when your spouse crosses the line and takes advantage of your desire to please.

It is so ironic that selfish people will demand that everything be done their way, and then they lose respect for people who cater to their every wish.


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## papa5280 (Oct 12, 2011)

The OP is exactly correct. And the proof of it is that the wife, whether she's justified or not, can destroy EVERYTHING that the nice-guy has built-up, with a single choice. It's really a house of cards.

So, why should you be proud of building something that one other person can render worthless on a whim? 

By being one's own man, providing for the family while still being true to yourself, then you can build a legacy that is more than paper thin.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

I get your meaning and your frustration. I agree it's important to learn from the nice guy mistakes and mindset.

However, I never thought of myself as a nobody. I liked me... I just lost myself in my marriage. My fault.

Another thing to consider, it's a very one-way post. After all, it takes two to tango, to make a marriage work, and for it to fall apart. It's not just about you (or us guys), but about her. Vice-versa as well, since there are female saviours/fixers/smoothers.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

"An entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don’t need. We’re the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War is a spiritual war… our Great Depression is our lives. We’ve all been raised on television to believe that one day we’d all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won’t. And we’re slowly learning that fact. And we’re very, very pissed off."

-Tyler Durden


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Synthetic, I'm a recovering niceguy too, and I am learning that there is nothing wrong with going after those goals in life, and there is nothing wrong with being nice. The point is take pride in those things if it was your goal you worked towards. Now as to the beautiful wife, amazing children and long lasting marriage, a friend once reminded me:

Things are to be used and people are to be loved, not the other way around.

When you treat people like they are objectives, well then yeah, you got it wrong, but don't think of success as something evil, nor loss a personal failure.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I think my husband feels this way sometimes. I want him to feel like a somebody, not a nobody... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlterEgoist (Mar 6, 2012)

canguy66 said:


> However, I never thought of myself as a nobody. I liked me... I just lost myself in my marriage. My fault.


I think most of us lose ourselves in our marriages. It's up to ourselves to get that back. Some people take longer than others... I think I'm on the way to get that back. I know I won't quite be the same person as I was 11 years ago, but I'll be helluva lot wiser.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I dislike it when I suspect that a man is forfeiting his time and money in the delusion that he has to in order to gain my attention. There's nothing worse than being in too much control of someone else's life. If you want sex, ask for it, don't try to buy it with time or money. If your wife/girlfriend tells you she doesn't value something, don't bend over backwards to try to give it to her, whether it is diamonds or a car or dinner out or whatever. Pay attention to what she does say she values, it might be a little thing but it's no trick, some women really do not want the responsibility of trying to make a man happy when he has actively forsaken his identity in her pursuit. It's way too much responsibility. There is this thing called communication....there are these things called boundaries....don't give up your identity in the pursuit of p*ssy. It's not worth it! Keep your privates attached to your heart, and give yourself a piece of your heart every day. Then things will generally be okay, more or less.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

YinPrincess said:


> I think my husband feels this way sometimes. I want him to feel like a somebody, not a nobody...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you act on that perception?


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## proudwidaddy (Dec 26, 2011)

I agree with the previous posters that while the men do lose themselves, sacrifice themselves for others, it does take two to make the marriage work. If the other person wants to leave, let them leave. 

Work on yourself. It is okay to still be a nice, caring guy...just don't be the doormat or pushover.

That is the difference. If you want something, ask for it. Don't hint about it. Don't make covert contracts, i.e. if I get them flowers they will love me."


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

"Don't give up your identity in the pursuit of pvssy." ----Homemaker Numero Uno

I think this is very important. As much as we like to deny this, our desire and crazy attraction to sex makes us an easy target for these type of women. They know what we want and will gladly give it to us from time to time in exchange for our souls. 

The first step in all this is taking responsibility for our own part in the whole mess. Like others said it takes two to tango. I was a nice guy in my marriage, a rescuer and is a big reason why the marriage failed. I blame STBXW for taking advantage of this but I should have never been so bling as to not figure this out. 

I still intend to be nice to my next partner. Will I ever put a woman on a pedestal? No. Will I ever trust blindly? No. But I hope to fall in love again one day and make her feel special, secured and loved. I hope that in return she will do her best to make me happy. If at some point she cheats on me, we break up because things are not working out, fine. No problem because my goal is to never again need others to validate me or make me happy. I make myself happy.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

AlterEgoist said:


> I think most of us lose ourselves in our marriages. It's up to ourselves to get that back. Some people take longer than others... I think I'm on the way to get that back. I know I won't quite be the same person as I was 11 years ago, but I'll be helluva lot wiser.


It's also up to the spouse to say something if he/she notices it. Chances are that if one spouse has lost themself in the marriage the other has as well.

This is why it's important for spouses to communicate and listen to what each has to say.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

The underlying message is "don't be so codependent" and learn to say no once in a while, do things for yourself that make you happy. I see far to many men (myself included) that absorb too much into other's identity and forget what made then attractive to their partners in the first place. Once you let the other partner change you into their ideal man/woman and completely feel they have you no matter what.... affairs happen and you're taken for granted. No matter how nice a person you are nobody I mean NOBODY is happy with perfection.


A better message to be had would be to remain a challenge even in marriage and keep yourself occupied with things that make YOU happy. There's no rule that says you need to stay home all the time and get rid of your opposite sex friends but never let your partner define you 100%. There will come a time you'll need to re establish attraction and a big part of that is having your spouse feel you can be won over all over again.


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## Mothra777 (Apr 10, 2012)

The original post is harsh but quite accurate in a lot of ways...my wife left fell out of love with me and moved out on the weekend and I have been left picking up the pieces and wondering who the heck I am? I am a classic case of the 'nice guy finishing last' and I think doing the 180 hard is helping me overcome the codependency issues and find myself again. I won't win her back but I won't let her beat me either!


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Mothra777 said:


> The original post is harsh but quite accurate in a lot of ways...my wife left fell out of love with me and moved out on the weekend and I have been left picking up the pieces and wondering who the heck I am? I am a classic case of the 'nice guy finishing last' and I think doing the 180 hard is helping me overcome the codependency issues and find myself again. *I won't win her back but I won't let her beat me either!*


Same here, Mothra... I realized I was codependent as well. I felt like I'd pressed the pause button the last two years of my marriage. The separation was tremendously painful, but it was an awakening. Part of the path to self-actualization, which I don't think I'd be on otherwise. It's nice to feel like I've finally pressed "play" again.


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## Andy968 (Apr 29, 2012)

Canguy you recommended a book called No more Mr. Nice Guy. For the last 20 months I have been working on many of the traits the book refers too, and the OP wrote about. I'm half way through the book and I can officially say I am a recovering nice guy. The OP's words are harsh, but so true. You wake up one day and find out your "nice guy" traits ruined your marriage. Identifying this personality trait has been a positive by-product of my failed marriage. I realized being a nice guy was a problem, and I can work on it. I cut the ties from mother (almost as traumatic as my busted marriage), demanded and received a pay raise, and I don't mind rocking the boat once in awhile. Reading posts like this from other men and the OP helps, even though they are hard to read. Truth is refreshing, no matter how bad it feels.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Andy, 

A month or so ago I started reading this book but didn't get too far, got distracted with other stuff. But I remember a key point was that it's necessary to cut ties with your mother. STBXW always complained I was a mama's boy (not really). I'm still in my 20s. My mother is financially stable/entrepreneur and offers to help financially when needed. Once I made a big purchase using my mother's credit, mine was not good at the time and STBXW got really pissed at this. 

I now realize that is best to cut all ties and set out on your own, even if you could use some help, don't take it. 

Right now I'm living at my mother's house, a 2 family house, I live in the apt on 1st floor. I feel so uncomfortable about this. It brings me as much anxiety as the whole separation/divorce. 

Has anyone dealt with a similar situation? 

Also, for those who have read the No More Mr. Nice Guy could you post the 3-5 most important points, if you have time.

Thanks.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

I work full time in a managerial position and support my family. Also pay rent where I am now (mother's house) but still feel uneasy.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

LS, I know exactly how you feel. 2 years ago we had to sell our house because we couldn't afford it anymore. It took my stbxw way too long to find a decent job and instead of going so far into debt I talked her into selling.

Seeing how we had moved to my moms once way back in the early days (I had lost my job), I had already made rooms big enough for both kids to have there own and the ex and I had our own room as well.

Things weren't the greatest here, my mom has serious BPD .. it put a big toll on our marriage but we told ourselves we would only be here for 1-2 years max until we paid down our debt and move out.

Well, 2 years came to the day almost .. we were ready to move out and instead she up and left on her own.

Anyways .. yes, I know how you feel. At first I planned on staying here to save up for a house of my own. But now I'm starting to feel anxiety staying here. Once I get back to work I think I'm just going to get a 1 bedroom apartment and let the kids have that room when they are with me. I can sleep in the living room.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi Andy, glad the book is doing you some good. It certainly woke me up.

I would disagree with a point you made:



> You wake up one day and find out your "nice guy" traits ruined your marriage.


I will accept that my nice guy tendencies _contributed_ to the failure of my marriage, but not that it was the sole cause. My ex, imho, has a narcissistic personality disorder. Both were toxic to our marriage. It takes two to tango. 

After all, isn't blaming ourselves part of being a nice guy? As in we weren't good enough fixers? Maybe.

My ex told me "you're a great guy, just not the guy for me". I can honestly say the reverse was true. Sometimes things just end.

Here's to new beginnings, and a lesson learned.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Lifescript,

If you read Conrad's "The making of a nice guy" thread, you'll see how I've always felt like my mom's "protector" since I was perhaps 5-6 years old. This was due to abuse on my father's part.

When they divorced, my protective/rescuer instincts shot up the roof and I functionally became my mother's "husband/father". You wouldn't believe the kind of praises I received from friends and family for rising up to the challenge and supporting her both emotionally and financially after my dad left her with absolutely nothing (and I mean nothing).

My own wife said she loved me so much for doing all that. I always thought I was doing the right thing. 

It was wrong. It was toxic and a vital instrument in my failure to recognize my wife's abusive behavior.

5 months ago, I pretty much let go. I stopped being my mother's husband. I no longer call her everyday. I don't visit her much. I don't feel guilty about their failed marriage anymore. Believe it or not, my dad blamed the failure of their marriage on me. He bluntly said "if you hadn't supported your mom, she wouldn't have felt strong enough to divorce me". I still suffer tremendously because of that statement. I still think it may be true. When a father tells his son something, no matter how wrong he is, his words are associated with "truth" in the son's mind. 

I'm such a mess after typing this


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

UpnDown, 

That's one thing I'm considering, to stay at my mother's house until I finish paying off the car, other debts (still paying for school loan). But it's just so stressful and embarassing to me to have to live at my mother's house now that I'm an adult and had my own apartment, my family. This is one of the most stressful aspects of divorce I feel. The financial setbacks.

Canguy, 

Sometimes things just end -- That's the bottom line. 

Like I think even after all this is sad and done. And I remarry (don't think I'll ever remarry) but find someone new. Say we have 10 years of loving each other, understanding, love nirvana. I almost feel like nothing lasts forever. No matter how much you try all you can do is prolong the inevitable, feelings change, needs change, don't know I'm just feeling kind of negative/pessimistic about the whole love for life thing right now. Please chime in.

Synthetic, 

Your dad is an *sshole. I'm so grateful that both my parents never blamed us for their split, well we were babies and never badmouth each other, maybe a little something here and there but not often. 

The crazy thing is you can't hate your dad. Doing so would only make you unhappy and is not good so you have to forgive him and accept that we all have our faults. Maybe one day you two can have a conversation about it and have closure.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

LS,

I guess I may have it just a tad easier for myself because my stbxw is currently living at her parents .. in a single room. She has applied for welfare / government assisted living and doesn't even know where she will be living at the end of the summer seeing how her parents are selling the house.

After a heated argument last week, she questioned my plans on living arrangements. I told her I was probably going to stay here for now seeing how its just a few streets over from my daughters school. Was almost a mocking tone.. so I put judgement on her copout attempt at getting government assisted housing and she tells me 'I'm moving into my sisters'.

Talked to her sister on the weekend, she had no idea stbxw was moving into her house lol. Told me that she had said 'if she was on the street' she could move in but never actually said yes.

Plus, if I move then I won't be able to have my kids 50 / 50 with the current job I have. I work 2 weeks days, 2 weeks until midnight .. I need someone here to watch them in the evenings while I'm at work.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Synthetic,

When you go to IC, this should be your first subject.





synthetic said:


> Lifescript,
> 
> If you read Conrad's "The making of a nice guy" thread, you'll see how I've always felt like my mom's "protector" since I was perhaps 5-6 years old. This was due to abuse on my father's part.
> 
> ...


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

synthetic said:


> Believe it or not, my dad blamed the failure of their marriage on me. He bluntly said "if you hadn't supported your mom, she wouldn't have felt strong enough to divorce me". I still suffer tremendously because of that statement. I still think it may be true.


Blameshifting, that's what that was. 

Consider this. As a man, you are realizing *you* need to take responsibility for your actions, future and to that end, you're making changes. Excellent.

Now... that same thing applies for your father. He failed to take responsibility for his actions. That's his baggage, *not yours*.

A counsellor can help you deal with those issues. I hope you're seeing one.


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## D8zed (Mar 12, 2009)

synthetic said:


> My own wife said she loved me so much for doing all that. I always thought I was doing the right thing.
> 
> It was wrong. It was toxic and a vital instrument in my failure to recognize my wife's abusive behavior.


Synthetic,

You said "it was wrong". What exactly was wrong? 

If you're talking about what you did for your mother, I disagree it was wrong. I believe you probably did it *out of love* and you expected absolutely nothing in return. True? Assuming so, that is what authentic people do.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Lifescript said:


> Sometimes things just end -- That's the bottom line.
> 
> Like I think even after all this is sad and done. And I remarry (don't think I'll ever remarry) but find someone new. Say we have 10 years of loving each other, understanding, love nirvana. I almost feel like nothing lasts forever. No matter how much you try all you can do is prolong the inevitable, feelings change, needs change, don't know I'm just feeling kind of negative/pessimistic about the whole love for life thing right now. Please chime in.


That's understandable and normal. Once bitten twice shy.

I have learned a lot about myself and marriage during my relationship. I am kicking the nice guy habit and getting back in touch with my core. That's making me stronger and in essence, I'm kind of in training for the rest of my life. I want it to be a better one. I also want to share it with someone.

I do want to be in another relationship, but I don't need it to feel complete. Right now, a slow pace works for me. As I continue to heal and grow, we'll see. 

Never say never.


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## Matt1720 (May 7, 2012)

D8zed said:


> Synthetic,
> 
> You said "it was wrong". What exactly was wrong?
> 
> If you're talking about what you did for your mother, I disagree it was wrong. I believe you probably did it *out of love* and you expected absolutely nothing in return. True? Assuming so, that is what authentic people do.


This is where "our type" get in trouble. Giving to get

Yes, doing something for your family can truly be a selfless/thankless experience. Even so, we understand we "got" a mother out of the experience. Maybe not the very best there was, but we have no choice in the matter when it comes to who our parents are.

With a relationship, even in our most confused state we know we CHOSE to be with that person. We continue to give and give as we learned to do growing up, but theres a big difference. 

Rather than being blood, someone you KNOW will be in your life, its a person that makes the choice to offer companionship/friendship/intimacy/affection or NOT. As much as we tell ourselves we are doing the right thing, we engage in subconscious, covert "give to get" behaviors. This is where the real hurt and resentment begins.

Same behavior, two totally different expectations (whether we know it/accept it our not), similar pain.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Matt,

That's some real insight.

"Giving to get" actually "worked"

The right brain learned the lesson.

And, a niceguy was born!


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## Matt1720 (May 7, 2012)

Thanks! I guess i'm learnin something.

Make "Give to Get" -> "Ask and watch" -> "No get, I jet"

And this is what outside observers mean when they say "you're better off without them".


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

synthetic said:


> Lifescript,
> 
> If you read Conrad's "The making of a nice guy" thread, you'll see how I've always felt like my mom's "protector" since I was perhaps 5-6 years old. This was due to abuse on my father's part.
> 
> ...


Sounds like your father is still abusive
Just consider the source he actions were his actions not yours 
And I agree with your feelings on not being a rescuer of your wife or mother


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Matt1720 said:


> Thanks! I guess i'm learnin something.
> 
> Make "Give to Get" -> "Ask and watch" -> "No get, I jet"


This whole "right/left" brain thing is the key.

Our logical centers would tell us that going back with one more appeal will never work.

Yet, our right brain "gets" the idea you explain things to resolve conflict.

So, we're stuck.


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## Andy968 (Apr 29, 2012)

> D8zed You said "it was wrong". What exactly was wrong?
> 
> If you're talking about what you did for your mother, I disagree it was wrong. I believe you probably did it *out of love* and you expected absolutely nothing in return. True? Assuming so, that is what authentic people do.


On the surface there is nothing wrong with taking care of your parents. What is wrong is the emotional component that's involved with "nice guys", which creates an emotional monogamous relationship with their mother. This component prevents intimacy with their spouse, and feeds and unhealthy emotional need for the mother. This unhealthy relationship started when the man was a boy, and it is a child coping mechanism to feelings of abandoment. Unfortuneately the man brings this child coping mechanism to an adult relationship with his spouse and bam, big problems. Once I realized what was happening with me, I cut these emotional ties. This caused my parents to move to another state, which hurt, but is a good thing. I told them that no matter what happened with my current marriage, their influence would no longer be allowed to affect it or the next one. Boundaries baby, boundaries. I felt bad about setting them, but empowered like never before. My mother had to turn to her husband (my dad) for support rather than me. Imagine that.


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## Matt1720 (May 7, 2012)

Andy968 said:


> On the surface there is nothing wrong with taking care of your parents. What is wrong is the emotional component that's involved with "nice guys", which creates an emotional monogamous relationship with their mother. This component prevents intimacy with their spouse, and feeds and unhealthy emotional need for the mother. This unhealthy relationship started when the man was a boy, and it is a child coping mechanism to feelings of abandoment. Unfortuneately the man brings this child coping mechanism to an adult relationship with his spouse and bam, big problems. Once I realized what was happening with me, I cut these emotional ties. This caused my parents to move to another state, which hurt, but is a good thing. I told them that no matter what happened with my current marriage, their influence would no longer be allowed to affect it or the next one. Boundaries baby, boundaries. I felt bad about setting them, but empowered like never before. My mother had to turn to her husband (my dad) for support rather than me. Imagine that.



This also doesnt help when your mom doesn't have anything nice to say about/TO your W and vice versa.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Making sacrifices for your mother is never out of pure "love". A child does not love their mother like the mother loves them. That's the reality.

Children only give-back to gain validation and attention. There is no other reason for a child to give back. Remember, we are born as "ego-centered" creatures. Giving back is never an instinct. It's a developed tool for validation and attention. At moderate levels it's wonderful and a truly human-exclusive characteristic. A nice-guy is not familiar with moderation.


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## Andy968 (Apr 29, 2012)

> This also doesnt help when your mom doesn't have anything nice to say about/TO your W and vice versa.


Matt you are so right. I stood by on the sideline while my W and mother slugged it out like heavy weights. Being the nice guy I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings so I did nothing. Little did I know my W felt threatened, insecure, unloved, uncherished, second to my mom, all the while taking an emotional beating from my mother. This of course led to intense feeling of bitterness and scorn towards me and forcing her to fight for our family in my place. It makes me sick to know I caused her to feel this, when I was trying to do just the opposite. This is the paradox of the nice guy. 

When I finally realized I needed to get my mother under control, protect my wife from her controlling influence, it was too late. I can't fix my wife's heart, but I did set the boundry with my mother and it will remain well fortified.


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## Matt1720 (May 7, 2012)

Andy968 said:


> Matt you are so right. I stood by on the sideline while my W and mother slugged it out like heavy weights. Being the nice guy I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings so I did nothing. Little did I know my W felt threatened, insecure, unloved, uncherished, second to my mom, all the while taking an emotional beating from my mother. This of course led to intense feeling of bitterness and scorn towards me and forcing her to fight for our family in my place. It makes me sick to know I caused her to feel this, when I was trying to do just the opposite. This is the paradox of the nice guy.
> 
> When I finally realized I needed to get my mother under control, protect my wife from her controlling influence, it was too late. I can't fix my wife's heart, but I did set the boundry with my mother and it will remain well fortified.


Responded to this in my private thread due to details/not wanting to derail.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

This is crazy. It's like we all went through the same thing. 

I had the same problem you did with my mother and STBXW Andy. 

My mother would say negative things about her and I wouldn't know how to step in and stop her. Think about it, it's weird to have to stop your mother on her tracks (embarassing her sort of in front of your wife and other people calling out her childish behavior). I didn't know how to do this. Later on I learned but it was too late.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Human beings are much more alike than different.


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## Andy968 (Apr 29, 2012)

Lifescript said:


> This is crazy. It's like we all went through the same thing.QUOTE]
> 
> Yeah, I've noticed many similar experience. I think there are alot of "nice guys" that end up as dumpees.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Appropos to the subject of a man losing himself or being pissed off when he feels taken advantage of because he did not establish a healthy boundary of some sort, I saw a post in another thread on boundaries for men:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/14963-boundaries-men.html

An excerpt fromt he book: Hold on to Your NUTs":
Relationship Book, Self Help Relationship Book For a Man, Best Manual for Men

"What Are N.U.T.s?

N.U.T.s are your Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms. N.U.T.s are the things you’re committed to, the things that matter more than anything else: your kids, your work, yourself, your purpose, your spiritual practice, your hobbies, your integrity, your morals and your emotional and psychological well-being.

N.U.T.s are the boundaries that define you as man, those things which, if repeatedly compromised, will gradually—but assuredly—turn you into a pissed-off, resentful man who will likely blame others—especially your wife—for your unhappiness.

Your N.U.T.s are uniquely yours. They reflect who you are as a man and the man you want to be. Compromise your N.U.T.s, and you’ll compromise yourself. Compromise yourself too often, and you’ll become an extremely unhappy man, husband and father."

What do you think?

Best Regards, - A12


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## worrieddad (Nov 3, 2011)

Me too. In fact, I'd go so far as to say my own Mr Nice Guy has taken a flying header off the nearest cliff just lately 

This "Nice Guy" topic is of interest to me. Me personally, I think there is a fine line between committed and codependent. I consider that I was deeply committed to my marriage...but I was never codependent, although I believe my stbx thinks I was.

synthetic - you feel like you have utterly lost yourself - I can understand. As a start towards a fix though, what did you like to do before you were married/in your relationship? Getting back to those things would be a good starting point.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Felt like bringing this discussion back up for the newly registered husbands who have been left behind by their wives.

Stop the madness by following these steps without backtracking: (I'll call them Synthetic's 10 Commandments )

*Synthetic's 10 Commandments*:

1. Read this link - *Just Let Them Go*

2. Follow the following rules: *The 180 degree rules*

3. Read this book in the next 24 hours: https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glo...r_Nice_Guy.pdf

4. Separate all finances and stop supporting her 'single' lifestyle

5. Book a counseling appointment ASAP

6. I don't care how you do it, but *sweat the pain of anxiety out*. Treadmills are your best friend. Use them. This is a very important: You need to physically feel spent before you hit bed every night. 

7. Think a lot, read a lot, and cry as needed - This particular link should be open in your browser at all times and read multiple times: DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?

8. Find your social worth by socializing with as many people as possible (females work better). Spend times with friends, but don't just settle for your circle of friends. This is the best time to make new ones and feel attractive/attracted. You're not looking for sex or a relationship. You're looking for natural human attraction between you and others.

9. Do whatever it takes to go on a trip that involves a long flight, preferably to a country where English or your first language is not spoken

10. Start living an 'overly' fun life without feeling any guilt. This is the hardest task ahead. It's important to wash the guilt out of yourself once you have realized where it originates from via all the reading and counseling you've done.


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## boxhead201 (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm a nice guy and I've been following these commandments.

Question: I have kids. I send support payments monthly. Does this mean I am supporting her single lifestyle?


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## grenville (Sep 21, 2011)

D8zed said:


> Synthetic,
> 
> You said "it was wrong". What exactly was wrong?
> 
> If you're talking about what you did for your mother, I disagree it was wrong. I believe you probably did it *out of love* and you expected absolutely nothing in return. True? Assuming so, that is what authentic people do.


Seconded, it most certainly wasn't wrong in any moral sense. It just didn't happen to work, but that's completely different.


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## Unwind80 (Aug 15, 2012)

Thanks for this Syn. I need to read No More Mr Nice Guy. The link you posted for it isn't working for some reason. Maybe this will work:
https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

boxhead201 said:


> I'm a nice guy and I've been following these commandments.
> 
> Question: I have kids. I send support payments monthly. Does this mean I am supporting her single lifestyle?


You have a responsibility to your kids no matter what your ex-wife does. If you have doubts as to where the *child *support money is going, take it up with the courts. But don't shortchange your kids to spite the ex. The kids are probably losing out due to the single lifestyle, too.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Well, there's one good thing in all of that...you'll be single a good looooooong time  

Seriously, I wouldn't go near a man like that, and neither would any woman I know. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?


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## gearhead65 (Aug 25, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Well, there's one good thing in all of that...you'll be single a good looooooong time
> 
> Seriously, I wouldn't go near a man like that, and neither would any woman I know. Where do you guys come up with this stuff?


Don't mistake the process for the end result. This is a transient state to get from unhealthy to healthy, but now you've got me curious. What is a man like "that" to you and the women you know? More specifically what is a man worth having?

GearHead


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I hope I can chime in here, too, with my opinion, gearhead. The biggest problem I have with the NMMNG is that my life experience showed me that the opposite of 'nice guy' is a controlling, abusive arsehole. It's hard to see what seems to be essentially an angry reaction to a hurtful situation turning out to be anything healthy. Maybe if done the right way, it does, but it's just hard to see it. 

And I don't like the idea that losing one's self in a relationship is exclusively a male problem. It happens just as easily to both genders. It's a problem of childhood programming, and that doesn't discriminate. We would all do our future partners a favor if we concentrated on being healthy humans and not trying to fit into some restricted definition of healthy 'man' and healthy 'woman'.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> the opposite of 'nice guy' is a controlling, abusive arsehole


I beg to differ. Controlling and abusive behavior is actually a hallmark byproduct of being a 'nice guy'. You obviously haven't read the book.

Recovered "nice guys" tend to be very calm and understanding. 



> And I don't like the idea that losing one's self in a relationship is exclusively a male problem.


Again. Read the book if you are curious. This is a fairly recent phenomenon among men. There are exclusive attributes that define a 'nice guy'. Some of those attributes are very gender-specific.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> Well, there's one good thing in all of that...you'll be single a good looooooong time


Quite the contrary.

The level of attraction seems to shoot up to the sky when nice-guys start to recover. It's only logical too.


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## gearhead65 (Aug 25, 2011)

angelpixie said:


> I hope I can chime in here, too, with my opinion, gearhead. The biggest problem I have with the NMMNG is that my life experience showed me that the opposite of 'nice guy' is a controlling, abusive arsehole. It's hard to see what seems to be essentially an angry reaction to a hurtful situation turning out to be anything healthy. Maybe if done the right way, it does, but it's just hard to see it.
> 
> And I don't like the idea that losing one's self in a relationship is exclusively a male problem. It happens just as easily to both genders. It's a problem of childhood programming, and that doesn't discriminate. We would all do our future partners a favor if we concentrated on being healthy humans and not trying to fit into some restricted definition of healthy 'man' and healthy 'woman'.


Oh, You preach it sister! The point I have taken away is to get a "Nice Guy" to do things counter intuitive to who he is. Break him out of his shell and preprogrammed responses to be more in line with what women really respond to. It is interesting to that I seem to have two default settings. One is a doormat the other is just what you described. Now imagine living with someone like that who switches through out the day. I need to do less of both to have a healthy balance, instead of swinging to extremes which has been my modus operandi for 20+ years. I also think that is part of the issue for "Nice Guys" and isn't all that uncommon. We become so accommodating and selfless that we can have an allergic reaction to it. Mainly because we ourselves have preconceived ideas of what a man is based off of myth, parenting, and entertainment. 

I especially like your last line. It is so important focus on being human first and being gender second. 

GearHead


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

I think you're confusing Nice Guys with Pushovers...

Sorry, but I'm not going to let a newly selfish man (who thinks his attraction quotient has gone up) treat me like crap in the name of him going more 'alpha' or whatever it is he learns in NMMNG, or MMSL. I won't be begging him for more, I'll be showing him the door.

There are some men out there who treat their women properly without getting walked all over like a pushover.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

CandieGirl said:


> I think you're confusing Nice Guys with Pushovers...
> 
> Sorry, but I'm not going to let a newly selfish man (who thinks his attraction quotient has gone up) treat me like crap in the name of him going more 'alpha' or whatever it is he learns in NMMNG, or MMSL. I won't be begging him for more, I'll be showing him the door.
> 
> There are some men out there who treat their women properly without getting walked all over like a pushover.


What does "treat women properly" mean to you?


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Yeah, many of those guys you mentioned are recovered nice guys. No one is saying you have to be an assh*le. Just don't get walked on and set boundaries. No need to mistreat the ladies. A little boundaries wouln't hurt, right Candie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> I think you're confusing Nice Guys with Pushovers...
> 
> Sorry, but I'm not going to let a newly selfish man (who thinks his attraction quotient has gone up) treat me like crap in the name of him going more 'alpha' or whatever it is he learns in NMMNG, or MMSL. I won't be begging him for more, I'll be showing him the door.
> 
> There are some men out there who treat their women properly without getting walked all over like a pushover.


You probably won't be showing a recovered "nice guy" the door because the smart recovered "nice guy" will have established his proper boundaries long before you get a chance to reject him for being himself. 

Being a nice-guy is not about being a pushover (although many nice guys are truly push-overs).

A "nice guy" is not a nice person at all. 

A "nice guy" has mountains of resentment and insecurities that often lead to the downfall of his most precious love-bond (marriage).

A "nice-guy" shows his alpha traits in inappropriate ways or places that only make him more vulnerable.

A "nice guy" gives only to get and almost always ends up feeling short-changed.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Boundaries are fine, but so is respect. From what I see in Synth's OP, the assumption is that women are some kind of generic monolith against which men have to protect themselves. *Both* parties in a relationship are battling unhealthy programming from their formative years. *Both* parties in a relationship need to develop a strong self and set healthy boundaries. I did start reading NMMNG. It didn't give me the impression that I was wrong. As I said before, maybe if this can be done in a healthy way, it doesn't result in an angry abusive guy with misogynistic tendencies. *I* have never seen that. That's my experience. It doesn't seem logical that a new set of behaviors that are entered into out of hurt and anger will somehow result in a person who is at peace and acting out of healthy love. 

Please, prove me wrong!!! If it can truly be done, I would be thrilled.


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## gearhead65 (Aug 25, 2011)

Well, I guess it really depends on where the person is mentally on how they approach anything. If they are looking at it out of hurt and pain then yeah. They might not get it or make progress in the right direction. If you look at it from the point of "there is something wrong with how I relate to women" then it might be better suited to going a way that helps us be more complete. 

I would be interested to see how many "Nice Guys" were raised in the absence of a positive male role model. I was. My father was around but neither positive nor truly supportive. Most of my interactions growing up were with females and their perspective on what a man "should" be. I'm just wondering if they really new what they wanted.

GearHead


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> Please, prove me wrong!!! If it can truly be done, I would be thrilled.


I'm your proof: My thread is in the Private section. My pictures are in my profile. 

There are at least a dozen other recovered/ing nice guys on this forum, but I won't name them in case they don't want me to.

I'm 10 times the person I used to be less than 6 months ago. My wife, my friends, my sister, people on TAM and my coworkers all attest to that.

I owe it all to awareness. NMMNG was a huge kick-start for me. I will never forget that.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> I would be interested to see how many "Nice Guys" were raised in the absence of a positive male role model.


In the modern urban culture, almost all men of the late 20th century and 21st century are raised in the absence of a proper male role model.

Read the book for some of the reasons.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

I never finished the book. Gotta finish it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

synthetic said:


> I'm your proof: My thread is in the Private section. My pictures are in my profile.
> 
> There are at least a dozen other recovered/ing nice guys on this forum, but I won't name them in case they don't want me to.
> 
> ...


I've almost forgotten why Synthetic ever needed lumber.


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## sadwithouthim (Dec 8, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> It's also up to the spouse to say something if he/she notices it. Chances are that if one spouse has lost themself in the marriage the other has as well.
> 
> This is why it's important for spouses to communicate and listen to what each has to say.


 
:iagree:


Yep....commmunication is a big key. Or you can have one communicating and the other not listening too. 


It doesn't just happen with the male species being the nice guy. The women can be the nice guy too who looses herself.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> The women can be the nice guy too who looses herself.


They can, but mostly for different reasons and with different outcomes. It's true that communication is important in marriage, but the 'nice guy' syndrome has its roots in other places.

As Robert Glover says in his book "This thread is unashamedly pro-male".

For good reasons


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## StillRemains (Aug 9, 2012)

Okay, I haven't read the book, but now that my STBXH has left us, I don't want to do anything that will somehow make my two sons damaged goods, so to speak. Any advice to that end? After my STBXH announced he was leaving, my oldest son immediately said it was going to put a burden on him. I told him no, absolutely not, I can take care of myself. I do expect him to help around the house, but that's because he is going to college and still living here rent-free. However, I do NOT want him to feel like he has to take care of me or somehow "step up" as the man of the house. I'm perfectly capable, make my own money, etc., have always maintained my independence even in marriage. I don't want either of my boys to be hurt by this anymore than they already will inevitably be hurt. They are already hurting because they went from seeing dad every day to only spending a few hours a week with him whenever he feels like he has time for them in his new single life. Help a mother out. lol


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## Twofaces (Dec 5, 2011)

synthetic said:


> You're a nice-guy, a rescuer, a happy loner, intelligent, financially independent, a good provider, a rock. You have a beautiful wife, amazing children, long lasting marriage, a house, cars, retirement plan, vacations...
> 
> As a man you take pride in being all of that.
> 
> ...







Reverse this for me, the MAN part, as i am a woman. It applies. Thank you. Very good post


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> Boundaries are fine, but so is respect. From what I see in Synth's OP, the assumption is that women are some kind of generic monolith against which men have to protect themselves.


They are.


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