# I do not intend to disturb or anger you



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is the raw truth, and being raw it may disturb. For that I apologize in advance. 

I lack the gene for jealousy. I simply don't have it. M2 has more than enough for both of us. An affair would destroy her, this she has told me from the start - 25 years ago. 

But not me. In fact, I have told her that a one time affair would not be the end of us - not for me. And that is not - hypothetical - as you might believe or wish. That is truth.


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## CarlaRose (Jul 6, 2014)

Okay. That's nice. And it reminds me of hearing/reading that men are more apt to forgive an affair than women are. The explanation, well one explanation, was that men know how it is to be attracted to someone else and often wish they could act on their attractions.

However, I do wonder what this has to do with jealousy. I think it's more a matter of broken trust and a person's need for monogamy, not jealousy.

But then, I'm not a jealous person either so if my husband had an affair, I'd be mad as hell because he promised "forsaking all others" just like I did, not to mention we both promised we'd never cheat. But, I wouldn't be jealous of all things, and I would exclaim that to the judge at my murder trial.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Yeah, I'm not sure that I see a true link between a not jealous/jealous person and a person who can/cannot forgive their spouse having an affair.

Plus, until something happens to truly test a person, I feel they don't really know how they will react. People really can surprise you, and sometimes they don't surprise you at all.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

sorry I misread the OP.

Well good for you. I wish I could be less jealous.

You do realize you kind of gave her a "hall pass" without getting one signed in return.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I think you might need to add a bit more of an explanation to your post MEM.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

So?:scratchhead: It's no skin off anyone else's nose.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Yeah, I can't see dh leaving me, either, for any reason. I am his girl. Even when/if I am/were a bad girl. I belong to him. We belong together.

I just cannot see him falling apart and getting all needy, clingy. Or my having to "rebuild" him. I think he would be angry, and hurt, but he would feel compassion for my weakness, too. He would want to understand what part he played. He knows me. His love does not depend on my love, or my behavior. He is committed. He bought it, he owns it.

I think very secure men are like oak trees. They are anchors who give to other beings, but don't need much themselves.

Jesus was a very secure man. He knew how weak humans were, and loved them in spite of themselves. It was not a trade. It was just a life of service based on total belief in his message.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

So MEM, do you also fantasize about your wife being with someone else and enjoy that fantasy?


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

I'm the opposite, I get too jealous of H  I want him all to myself. lol


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> But not me. In fact, I have told her that a one time affair would not be the end of us - not for me. And that is not - hypothetical - as you might believe or wish. That is truth.


One time only? How would you feel if it happened twice? 10x?

My SO has told me more than once that he wouldn't leave me if I cheated on him. I have sometimes wondered if that is an invitation.

After all, if he doesn't care, why should I?


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

always_alone said:


> My SO has told me more than once that he wouldn't leave me if I cheated on him. I have sometimes wondered if that is an invitation.


My wife has said that to me. I told her ideas uncomfortable with that and I don't reciprocate. 

We do discuss it as she was my first and she had a huge number. We always assumed if I were to stray it would around now (married 20+ years, in my mid 40s), but I'm good.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

No. Yuk.

Not into 3 somes either. 





clipclop2 said:


> So MEM, do you also fantasize about your wife being with someone else and enjoy that fantasy?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Murphy

There's the contractual aspect of marriage and then there is the real marriage - whatever that is. 

M2's Catholic value system creates a strong barrier to cheating. Partly why I feel safe saying what's true. 

Here's what I mean by that. She'd have to be completely fogged up to break bad like that. Not sure folks who are that fogged up really worry too much about coincidences. 







murphy5 said:


> sorry I misread the OP.
> 
> Well good for you. I wish I could be less jealous.
> 
> You do realize you kind of gave her a "hall pass" without getting one signed in return.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I honestly don't know if my H and I could recover from an affair or not. I hope I never have to find out.

I'm going to make a guess that we would not stay together, but we wouldn't hate each other, either. We would just part ways.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

So you don't really know... Or you don't really care.

Do you have attachment issues? It would explain a lot.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> So you don't really know... Or you don't really care.
> 
> *Do you have attachment issues? *It would explain a lot.


Could you explain that, please?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hold the presses. 

I NEVER said I didn't care. I just said I would not divorce her over it. 


QUOTE=always_alone;9587010]One time only? How would you feel if it happened twice? 10x?

My SO has told me more than once that he wouldn't leave me if I cheated on him. I have sometimes wondered if that is an invitation.

After all, if he doesn't care, why should I?[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Clip,

To whom is the post below directed? And to which of their posts?






clipclop2 said:


> So you don't really know... Or you don't really care.
> 
> Do you have attachment issues? It would explain a lot.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Hold the presses.
> 
> I NEVER said I didn't care. I just said I would not divorce her over it.


What about a long term affair? What about _two_ affairs?

Just wondering where your line is.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good afternoon MEM11313
I think people vary a lot in how much they care about affairs. For some it is the *worst* thing they can imagine a partner doing. For others it isn't that big a deal, and some are even completely happy with open relationships.

I tend to agree with you. Discovering my partner was having an affair would not be that large of an issue for me. I would want to know why, want to know if something was missing from our relationship, but that is about all.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I think some things even if you're certain that you will react a certain way, you can't know that you will until you're truly tested. It's still hypothetical. It's easy in the security of a stable marriage to say we'd stay together. The true test is when a sexual affair is discovered then what was said before may go out the window.

I am glad my husband wouldn't stay with me if I cheated. I respect that he has a clear line in the sand about affairs. I much prefer someone who can love me but still say "THIS is what I expect from you and it's the same expectations I have for myself...I love you too much to let you treat me this way. It's not good for you or me." I can love and respect someone like that.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

I don't _think_, can't say for sure, I'd consider it a total immediate deal breaker but is it a potentially divorceable of offense, yes.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

clipclop2 said:


> So MEM, do you also fantasize about your wife being with someone else and enjoy that fantasy?


Clipclop, I think you misunderstand the cuckold fantasy. Jealousy is an essential ingredient to this masochistic activity. 

If you felt no jealousy at all it would be just like two other people having sex.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I have known some men who don't seem to think it's a dealbreaker when their wife has cheated on them. 

I know some who see it as reason to fall out of love, but not divorce. 

I knew one that it was partly a fantasy thing, although only after he cheated, so it might also have been a way to ease his own guilt. 

I know some who think of it as a dealbreaker automatically.

I don't necessarily think any of these are tied to jealousy. These reactions are all thought processes about what cheating means to the relationship. I suspect jealousy is a thought process about what cheating means about the jealous person's _worth._


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Mem, it was to you. Since you have great faith your wife will never test you on this point, you don't really know how you would feel or, you don't care If she cheats so you aren't concerned and wouldn't divorce her?

Attachment issues: he doesn't have deep feelings that would be extremely hurt. He doesn't feel that way about people in general. He doesn't get that close, etc.

Mem doesn't really strike me as someone who would actually be OK with this situation. I just think he is too comfortable for his own good.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Kathy has a point.

Jealousy is also about the fear of losing something important to another.

Is she not that important? Of do you think she would never actually leave you for another?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Still wondering what prompted this thread. You don't seem to have a problem and you have no reason to suspect your lack of jealousy would disturb or anger anyone other than your wife.

Are you looking for accolades?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blonde,

What prompted it is the very common theme on TAM that:
- All infidelity is in the same giant bucket of awful behavior
- All cheaters are unethical bad people 
- Other than death of a close family member, infidelity is just about the worst thing could happen to you. 

As for my experience in this realm of bad behavior. 

M2 fell in love with someone else about 5 years ago. She was 'in love' with Oman for 2-3 years. 

She was rather volatile during that time. She threatened divorce a few times for no good reason. She tried to get ME to divorce her a few times. 

And I was hurt and angry when she confessed two years ago. And I did have a sick feeling in my stomach when I asked her if it had become physical. And it felt bad when she told me - if he had asked, she would have slept with him. 

And she didn't initiate because she doesn't want to go to hell when she dies. 

So - I was on and off angry about it for the next year. But - we don't really choose who we love. And she never really stopped loving me. 





Blondilocks said:


> Still wondering what prompted this thread. You don't seem to have a problem and you have no reason to suspect your lack of jealousy would disturb or anger anyone other than your wife.
> 
> Are you looking for accolades?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> And I was hurt and angry when she confessed two years ago. And I did have a sick feeling in my stomach when I asked her if it had become physical. *And it felt bad when she told me - if he had asked, she would have slept with him.
> 
> And she didn't initiate because she doesn't want to go to hell when she dies. *
> 
> So - I was on and off angry about it for the next year. But - we don't really choose who we love. And she never really stopped loving me.


Sounds like it didn't become physical.. I know many feel an EA and a PA is equal.. seen many threads here on this and opinions... 

Me and my H was talked about this.. and we both feel a Physical affair is worse. because of the way we view sex -this makes sense (as it would have already had the EA component anyway)...adding the physical would be taking it to the fullest degree..

Even in the book "His Needs / Her Needs" - the author feels the same...saying this is harder for a couple to overcome / forgive...(now with mind movies to boot)...

Do you think you would feel differently if she & he became physical ?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

So you're just stating your stance on these commonly discussed themes involving infidelity. Gotcha - There's infidelity and then there's INFIDELITY. There are low-down rotten dirty cheaters and then there are the usual garden variety of cheaters. There are worse things that can happen to you than infidelity like sickness or maiming or losing your job or a natural disaster. 

So glad you were able to take it in stride. Do you feel better now that you've made your point of view known? Do you think you've somehow defended your wife's honor?


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

MEM is awesome and can start whatever threads he likes as far as I'm concerned


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Of course he can start whatever threads he wants. Since I don't hang out in the infidelity forum there seemed to be a 'what is he talking about' feel to the thread.

Please feel free to report my posts to the mods if you think I'm picking on your favorite.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

That's quite aggressive. Why would I report your posts?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> And I was hurt and angry when she confessed two years ago. And I did have a sick feeling in my stomach when I asked her if it had become physical. And it felt bad when she told me - if he had asked, she would have slept with him.


That sick feeling in your stomach? Sounds a lot like jealousy to me.

At least, that's a lot like how jealousy feels to me.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

My wife and I are at opposite ends of this. I'm black and white and she is many shades of gray. I honestly don't think I could forgive it and I have told her as much. She on the other hand tends to factor in a lot of variables that really wouldn't matter to me. Pretty much most one night stands would be forgivable to her as long as it isn't someone she knows.

Part of me thinks her attitude is because of what I put her through. I have strayed before and she did forgive me. I'm glad she did. I guess I just wish she would take a harder stance on cheating. It may sound weird but the fact that certain scenarios really aren't that big of a deal to her makes me wonder if its somewhat related to how much she really cares. Does that make sense?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If some other dude offered more to my wife than I offer her, be it a six pack and Fabio hair, a 10,000 sq ft house (poor her she has to make do with only 6000 sq ft) and a nice SUV like an X5 to her current X3, I would book them a hotel room and deliver a bottle or ten of bubbly to their suite.

Said Fabio would also have to be more patient (today's spelling for indifferent) than me and shows he appreciates her Central Asia cuisine which looks like Klingon food at times...

Otherwise I would be rather ticked


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Blonde,
> 
> What prompted it is the very common theme on TAM that:
> - All infidelity is in the same giant bucket of awful behavior
> ...


Good for you! I too object to the common TAM meme that you outline above.

But what fascinates me is that you stated that you don't feel jealousy as others seem to. And that brought out a number of hoots of laughter and disbelief. I guess for some people ideology is more important than reality.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> So you're just stating your stance on these commonly discussed themes involving infidelity. Gotcha - There's infidelity and then there's INFIDELITY. There are low-down rotten dirty cheaters and then there are the usual garden variety of cheaters. There are worse things that can happen to you than infidelity like sickness or maiming or losing your job or a natural disaster.
> 
> So glad you were able to take it in stride. Do you feel better now that you've made your point of view known? Do you think you've somehow defended your wife's honor?


I don't think that it is necessary to belittle someone else's beliefs. One of the annoying parts of TAM is the pack mentality that so many chose. Every case is different and rather than advocating for a pre-set position, it often pays to hear more and judge more slowly.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Lyris said:


> MEM is awesome and can start whatever threads he likes as far as I'm concerned


I'm sure MEM is happy to have your permission.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Gus,
I'll only speak with confidence to a one time thing. 

And on discovery we'd either go straight into a true recon or we'd promptly separate residences, true 180 plus a total and permanent blackout of my activities while separated. 




GusPolinski said:


> What about a long term affair? What about _two_ affairs?
> 
> Just wondering where your line is.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> My wife and I are at opposite ends of this. I'm black and white and she is many shades of gray. I honestly don't think I could forgive it and I have told her as much. She on the other hand tends to factor in a lot of variables that really wouldn't matter to me. Pretty much most one night stands would be forgivable to her as long as it isn't someone she knows.
> 
> Part of me thinks her attitude is because of what I put her through. I have strayed before and she did forgive me. I'm glad she did. I guess I just wish she would take a harder stance on cheating. It may sound weird but the fact that certain scenarios really aren't that big of a deal to her makes me wonder if its somewhat related to how much she really cares. Does that make sense?


Yes, it does. But you are allowed to set your own boundaries. As long as they are compatible with your wife's, all should be well.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

CC,

I WAS too comfortable for my own good. Was certain that a good catholic girl couldn't cheat. I was just lucky. 

Of course it hurt that she loved him enough to try to destabilize our marriage. 

But being hurt - is different than: can't get over it and I want a divorce. 





clipclop2 said:


> Mem, it was to you. Since you have great faith your wife will never test you on this point, you don't really know how you would feel or, you don't care If she cheats so you aren't concerned and wouldn't divorce her?
> 
> Attachment issues: he doesn't have deep feelings that would be extremely hurt. He doesn't feel that way about people in general. He doesn't get that close, etc.
> 
> Mem doesn't really strike me as someone who would actually be OK with this situation. I just think he is too comfortable for his own good.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> I'm sure MEM is happy to have your permission.


Yes I agree. Why wouldn't he be? I rock.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

CC,

I think you nailed me on this key point. 

I don't think she would leave me for another man. An affair, maybe. Almost happened. A temporary separation - maybe. 

But actually leave and stay left. No. 




clipclop2 said:


> Kathy has a point.
> 
> Jealousy is also about the fear of losing something important to another.
> 
> Is she not that important? Of do you think she would never actually leave you for another?


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## JWTBL (May 28, 2014)

I wasn't jealous of my husband when I found out about his affair. I was incredibly hurt that he turned out to be a liar and a cheater. And then when I imagined them having a fantastic , incredible life together and me having no one, then jealousy came into it. But no one has an incredible, fantastic life, they both have their own human failings, so jealousy, as I see it, is not really a major part of the equation when a spouse cheats. It's more a mixture of hurt, betrayal , feeling like you've been kicked in the gut, and feeling like an idiot for marrying this person in the first place, all rolled into one. And discussing how you think you would feel if a spouse cheated vs. actually having it done to you are two totally different things.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> I don't think that it is necessary to belittle someone else's beliefs. One of the *annoying parts of TAM is the pack mentality* that so many chose. Every case is different and rather than advocating for a pre-set position, it often pays to hear more and judge more slowly.


It's human nature to simplify complex things. TAM merely reflects human nature. And from what I've seen, belittling other's beliefs is a by product of us validating our own different beliefs.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
Yes - if it had gone physical it would have hurt a LOT more. 

But I do all that I can to make sure she's a happy, fulfilled, sexually cared for wife. So her doing that, well it wouldn't be about me. 

She does the same in reverse - takes great care of me. So if I cheat, that's on me, not on her. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> Sounds like it didn't become physical.. I know many feel an EA and a PA is equal.. seen many threads here on this and opinions...
> 
> Me and my H was talked about this.. and we both feel a Physical affair is worse. because of the way we view sex -this makes sense (as it would have already had the EA component anyway)...adding the physical would be taking it to the fullest degree..
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blondi,

FWIW I agree that my initial post on this thread was unclear and poorly constructed. 




Blondilocks said:


> Of course he can start whatever threads he wants. Since I don't hang out in the infidelity forum there seemed to be a 'what is he talking about' feel to the thread.
> 
> Please feel free to report my posts to the mods if you think I'm picking on your favorite.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

AA,
You ever see a generally calm person totally lose it?

This is probably something like that. I'm capable of feeling hurt, angry, maybe even jealous for a moment in an extreme situation. But there's a difference between being capable of an emotion, and being frequently held hostage by it. 





always_alone said:


> That sick feeling in your stomach? Sounds a lot like jealousy to me.
> 
> At least, that's a lot like how jealousy feels to me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

RH,
It does. But M2 doesn't correlate how much I care, to my viewpoint on this issue. 

Or if she does, it's a positive correlation not a negative one. 




ReformedHubby said:


> My wife and I are at opposite ends of this. I'm black and white and she is many shades of gray. I honestly don't think I could forgive it and I have told her as much. She on the other hand tends to factor in a lot of variables that really wouldn't matter to me. Pretty much most one night stands would be forgivable to her as long as it isn't someone she knows.
> 
> Part of me thinks her attitude is because of what I put her through. I have strayed before and she did forgive me. I'm glad she did. I guess I just wish she would take a harder stance on cheating. It may sound weird but the fact that certain scenarios really aren't that big of a deal to her makes me wonder if its somewhat related to how much she really cares. Does that make sense?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
Would you have felt the same way 6-7 years ago? Before the rapture/rupture? 




john117 said:


> If some other dude offered more to my wife than I offer her, be it a six pack and Fabio hair, a 10,000 sq ft house (poor her she has to make do with only 6000 sq ft) and a nice SUV like an X5 to her current X3, I would book them a hotel room and deliver a bottle or ten of bubbly to their suite.
> 
> Said Fabio would also have to be more patient (today's spelling for indifferent) than me and shows he appreciates her Central Asia cuisine which looks like Klingon food at times...
> 
> Otherwise I would be rather ticked


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sidney, 

I AM glad to get that reaction from Lyris as she often writes stuff that feels like it was pulled directly from my head or M2's head without a single edit. 

She's either a telepath or as close as I'm ever going to get to finding a twin. 



QUOTE=sidney2718;9592818]I'm sure MEM is happy to have your permission.[/QUOTE]


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Absolutely yes. And I told exactly that to my wife when we got married. I am quite confident that in terms of all the pieces I am "gestalt", that is, as a whole I am worth more than the sum of my parts.

If she doesn't see it - and currently she doesn't tho she used to pre-rapture - that's her loss.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Blonde,
I wondered why I was getting such a strong reaction from you. So I did a quick search and found your recent thread describing your very dim view of giving people second chances. 

Sadly you were very dismissive of the question regarding your threshold for terminating a long term marriage. 

You responded to a serious question by way of a sarcastic comment about farting or burping not being a basis for invoking your 'one and done' philosophy. 

This made me think that perhaps you suffer from some type of ummm - digestive condition. I find that folks are much more understanding regarding issues that they themselves are intimately familiar with. 

And also find that folks who are confident in their positions actually respond to serious challenges in a mature manner. 





Blondilocks said:


> So you're just stating your stance on these commonly discussed themes involving infidelity. Gotcha - There's infidelity and then there's INFIDELITY. There are low-down rotten dirty cheaters and then there are the usual garden variety of cheaters. There are worse things that can happen to you than infidelity like sickness or maiming or losing your job or a natural disaster.
> 
> So glad you were able to take it in stride. Do you feel better now that you've made your point of view known? Do you think you've somehow defended your wife's honor?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

clipclop2 said:


> Kathy has a point.
> 
> Jealousy is also about the fear of losing something important to another.
> 
> Is she not that important? Of do you think she would never actually leave you for another?



Maybe MEM is a bit blind to feel so secure as to have no feelings of jealousy, I don't know, but personally, I only have those feelings when some boundary is crossed. Maybe MEM's partner doesn't often cross any boundaries. Maybe he's so secure because she enables him to be. (Obviously been through hell and back with her having an EA, but they rode it out and stayed together. She chose him again.)

I could honestly say that I haven't felt jealousy in... I don't know, quite some time. Doesn't mean I can't feel it, or haven't felt it, or won't feel it; give me something to be jealous about first though.

As for cheating, I wouldn't know if I could forgive it until I was required to. If he felt true remorse, I would hope so, because I wouldn't *want* to lose him. If he didn't feel remorse, there'd really be no point because he'd already be lost to me.

Edited to add: Not all people will need reasons to feel jealous I realise, some of it is all on them rather than their partner. Also, does going through your partner having an affair possibly lead to some people no longer seeing things in the same light. Maybe they develop scar tissue that stops them from feeling jealousy where they might have before.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Just wanted to say that I think you get negative reactions because people feel you don't display enough humility. It can come across as, "look how wonderful I am for not being jealous, you should all bow down to me". Not quite that bad, lol, but hackles go up nonetheless. Makes them want to hamstring you. "Won't be so brash writhing in pain on the ground, will ya!" Anyway, that's just the vibe I was feeling here.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Absolutely yes. And I told exactly that to my wife when we got married. I am quite confident that in terms of all the pieces I am "gestalt", that is, as a whole I am worth more than the sum of my parts.
> 
> If she doesn't see it - and currently she doesn't tho she used to pre-rapture - that's her loss.


_Defensive._


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> _Defensive._



And proud of it 

If you spent five decades building a franchise you should not be afraid of competition, whether you're a frozen yogurt place, Microsoft, or a person. 

But, if competition does better than you do you freak out or you live and learn?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> And proud of it
> 
> If you spent five decades building a franchise you should not be afraid of competition, whether you're a frozen yogurt place, Microsoft, or a person.
> 
> But, if competition does better than you do you freak out or you live and learn?


John, you are a tough nut to crack. 

If they want to go, you let them go. My view, anyway.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

john117 said:


> And proud of it
> 
> If you spent five decades building a franchise you should not be afraid of competition, whether you're a frozen yogurt place, Microsoft, or a person.
> 
> But, if competition does better than you do you freak out or you live and learn?


You seem to judge your value as a man and husband in simplistic financial terms. It is not always about that, otherwise the richest men in the world would have the happiest, most stable marriages.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> This is the raw truth, and being raw it may disturb. For that I apologize in advance.
> 
> I lack the gene for jealousy. I simply don't have it. M2 has more than enough for both of us. An affair would destroy her, this she has told me from the start - 25 years ago.
> 
> But not me. In fact, I have told her that a one time affair would not be the end of us - not for me. And that is not - hypothetical - as you might believe or wish. That is truth.


This is an interesting post. I think jealousy has a lot to do with self confidence as well.

I'm kind of like your wife. If my H became emotionally and physically involved with someone else I'd be destroyed. My first thought would be "She's better than I am." 

However, my H is kind of like you. He'd think "Our relationship went wrong, that's why she did it." He's probably the least jealous person I know.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

My wife doesn't seem to have any jealousy whatsoever, and mine is minor and easily controlled if it does arise. That could play into a response to cheating, I suppose. Cheating would be a deal breaker for either of us, but the reason would be for the lying and deception. Having been in a poly relationship, and then swinging and open relationship, emotional and/or sexual connections aren't normally a problem - as long as they are immediately disclosed and discussed. There is no need to hide anything, so if hiding or deception did happen, it would mean an insoluble issue existed (a near impossibility for us).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't think I would react well to cheating at all. I hate a lack of honesty and openness.

I would lose tons of respect for DH if he did that. And I think he's well aware of that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

johnnycomelately said:


> You seem to judge your value as a man and husband in simplistic financial terms. It is not always about that, otherwise the richest men in the world would have the happiest, most stable marriages.



Far from it.

I'm well off to do but not wealthy like trust fund baby wealthy. Money would be about last on the list.

I'm well educated, well traveled, read, cultured, love the arts, hate excessive work, very stable job, love house DIY, best parent I know, not stodgy golf playing exec, very creative, very perceptive (too perceptive ), very caring, empathic, listener, cook well, drive a cute non threatening car, excellent sense of humor, very tolerant, etc. 

On the minus side I'm too perceptive, clairvoyant almost, too creative, too much of a problem solver, manipulative at times, and a too funny European accent. Unruly hair and academic inspired fashion. 

Sorry I'm not the Paul Bunion type physically but in retrospect I look better than many of my grandpa contemporaries.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

If you got cheated on, I have a feeling that non-jealousy chip that you have would most definitely change.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Blonde,
> I wondered why I was getting such a strong reaction from you. So I did a quick search and found your recent thread describing your very dim view of giving people second chances.
> 
> Sadly you were very dismissive of the question regarding your threshold for terminating a long term marriage.
> ...


I don't have a dim view of giving people second chances and never stated such. I have a dim view of people thinking they're *entitled* to a second chance as if it is an inalienable right. I do not have a 'one and done philosophy'.

There was no mention of my threshold for terminating a long term marriage. The poster I responded to was equating bad behavior (my words) with missing a deadline at work.

You're right in that I do have a ummm - digestive condition. Trying to figure out what a thread is about gives me heartburn.

Thank you for being so mature in responding to me. And, good on you for not considering your wife's being in love with another man an affair.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> Yes - if it had gone physical it would have hurt a LOT more.
> 
> But I do all that I can to make sure she's a happy, fulfilled, sexually cared for wife. So her doing that, well it wouldn't be about me.
> ...


See I've always felt that a ONS with some stranger would hurt less than what my wife did, which was a deep EA with a long term friend.

While the EA is over, I know deep down she still thinks highly of him as a friend (although they do not speak any longer). And that's a hurt that never fully goes away. A ONS means nothing.

But I do agree that if her EA had turned physical, that would have been a dealbreaker. It would have been a complete and total betrayal then, doing both.


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> My wife doesn't seem to have any jealousy whatsoever, and mine is minor and easily controlled if it does arise. That could play into a response to cheating, I suppose. Cheating would be a deal breaker for either of us, but the reason would be for the lying and deception.


Yes, the deliberate deception and lying to your face every day while watching you play the fool is as big, or even bigger, a problem with cheating as jealousy. It's a betrayal of the marriage, and of the love, trust, and loyalty that spouses have for each other. The WS is actively playing _against _their spouse, rather than playing on the same team. The entire foundation of the marriage is destroyed because the WS is a lying liar who lies at the expense of their spouse.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> But there's a difference between being capable of an emotion, and being frequently held hostage by it.


This is the most Vulcan post I've ever read on TAM. :lol:

I don't think it fair to say that people who feel jealousy because a spouse is physically intimate with another are being "held hostage" by that emotion. I feel it's the most common response. Most people aren't indeed, zen about finding out their wife is banging the mailman.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> If you got cheated on, I have a feeling that non-jealousy chip that you have would most definitely change.



Only if you get cheated by someone substantially inferior to you.

My cousin in the old country had a body to stop traffic. Literally. She was in her early 30's, college educated, super HD from what my aunt said, nice bank manager job, etc.

Her husband (HS math teacher) cheated on her with a fellow teacher 15 years older and looking like, well, the wicked witch of the West. Small town where everyone knows everyone, this sort of thing. 

My cousin instantly divorced the guy citing adultery only because he dared cheat on her with Mrs. Witch. Anybody better looking than herself g (hard to find) she would have been ok with....

Pride is a strange emotion.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I don't get this thread title. Why would OP be disturbing or angering anyone?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nora,

So when all this spilled out 2 years ago I admit to a strongly mixed reaction. 

On the - betrayal side of the ledger:

Her to Me
- She wanted him so badly she actively tried to get me to divorce her a few times. And without any reason I could understand told me she wanted to D me a few times. 
- She attempted to terminate our sexual relationship, hoping I would just give up and file. 

Me to Her
- For the first and ONLY time in a 20 plus year marriage she disclosed the contents of her confession to me. Oops. When W tells you she talked to her priest about her marriage being in trouble due to her feelings for an other man, you don't just shrug and say: I trust you

You ask: What can I do to help? And ask her how it can possibly get better while working with the Oman every day. 

------
And on the plus plus side of the ledger: 

They managed not to go physical. Pretty good given their daily proximity for 3 years. 

---------





norajane said:


> Yes, the deliberate deception and lying to your face every day while watching you play the fool is as big, or even bigger, a problem with cheating as jealousy. It's a betrayal of the marriage, and of the love, trust, and loyalty that spouses have for each other. The WS is actively playing _against _their spouse, rather than playing on the same team. The entire foundation of the marriage is destroyed because the WS is a lying liar who lies at the expense of their spouse.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Wait - how can she be so Catholic she'd afraid that cheating would send her to hell but she was actively trying to get a divorce? :scratchhead:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Of course, in the moment there is an intense reaction.

Just saying that for some folks they never get past it. 

Maybe if it had become physical I wouldn't have gotten past it. 



Starstarfish said:


> This is the most Vulcan post I've ever read on TAM. :lol:
> 
> I don't think it fair to say that people who feel jealousy because a spouse is physically intimate with another are being "held hostage" by that emotion. I feel it's the most common response. Most people aren't indeed, zen about finding out their wife is banging the mailman.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Well - she talked about doing it - but never did. 

After the fog lifted she said: I couldn't actually divorce you, I didn't have a legitimate reason to. So I tried pretty hard to get you to D me. 





Starstarfish said:


> Wait - how can she be so Catholic she'd afraid that cheating would send her to hell but she was actively trying to get a divorce? :scratchhead:


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## devotion (Oct 8, 2012)

This is a weird thread on how it started. I did have this conversation recently with my girlfriend, just one of those early morning random conversations. My ex-wife cheated on me (definite EA, possible PA). I had forgiven her and was trying to reconcile but that didn't work out (her choice). 

I feel very lucky that she didn't take me back because I don't want to be in a relationship with a cheater, EA or PA. I won't forgive it. Its the highest disrespect you can give someone. I can understand falling out of love and wanting out and getting out. I can't understand that you want to have your cake and eat it too. 

This obviously does not preclude those who are in open relationships (married or otherwise) but for most of us who chose to be monogamous I won't forgive it. 

Someone else wrote by saying you WOULD forgive cheating means you are giving a hall pass. The other side -- saying you WON'T.. means it can drive the other person further underground, ie if they make a 'mistake' in the heat of the moment they will attempt to cover it up with more lies, or because they're already 'done for' make it worse. I do have that fear but will just be vigilant. Would rather be cut and dry on this specific issue, myself. 

And yes, I am also the jealous type. My GF is not but says she believes the same way.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

john117 said:


> I am quite confident that in terms of all the pieces I am "gestalt", that is, as a whole I am worth more than the sum of my parts.
> 
> If she doesn't see it - and currently she doesn't tho she used to pre-rapture - that's her loss.


Your description of yourself may seem a little on the arrogant side to some but I get exactly what you're talking about. I asked my wife the reasons why she stayed after I strayed. Sure there was the emotional one of "love". But she had other criteria as well. 

She basically said the odds of finding a man she was sexually compatible with would be easy. She also said it would be easy to find a good looking man too. She further added she could easily find a man that was well to do that would have her. But.....she admitted that finding all three of these things in one person would take a while and may not even be possible, and she did not want to compromise. Of course this explanation didn't exactly make me feel all that great. 

I would have just preferred to hear she stayed because she loved me, but I'll take it. I'm the one that screwed up. Besides I do know she loves me. She just needed to progress through a process before deciding to reconcile.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

DH and I have a touch of jealousy,just enough to let the other know they're valued and not taken for granted. DH is more forgiving than I am though and we both know this. We can't change it,that's just how we're built. 
I've been through being the betrayed partner.I know I couldn't stay with DH if he had a PA with someone. I could get past an EA depending on the circumstances. I could certainly forgive him for a lapse of boundaries as far as flirting or whatever is concerned if I knew I wasn't meeting his needs or making him feel desired.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Reformed, I've said the same thing at work. I know I come off as less than modest but hey, it takes 3 warm bodies to do my work because I combine different characteristics and skills very well. So I'm not the best at any of the three different things I do at work but there is zero chance they can find anyone that does two of those, let alone three. 

Same with my marriage, assuming the lovely Dr. J2 would get out of her hole on the ground and realize it.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> This is the raw truth, and being raw it may disturb. For that I apologize in advance.
> 
> I lack the gene for jealousy. I simply don't have it. M2 has more than enough for both of us. An affair would destroy her, this she has told me from the start - 25 years ago.
> 
> But not me. In fact, I have told her that a one time affair would not be the end of us - not for me. And that is not - hypothetical - as you might believe or wish. That is truth.


Be careful what you wish for is all I can tell you.

It's best to keep these thoughts in your head vs letting them out. Now you got her thinking.......and you DON'T know what you will do if you are ever in that position.

Not smart man, not smart.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> This is the raw truth, and being raw it may disturb. For that I apologize in advance.
> 
> I lack the gene for jealousy. I simply don't have it. M2 has more than enough for both of us. An affair would destroy her, this she has told me from the start - 25 years ago.
> 
> But not me. In fact, I have told her that a one time affair would not be the end of us - not for me. And that is not - hypothetical - as you might believe or wish. That is truth.


Perhaps the gene you lack has nothing to do with "jealousy".

I'm not a jealous person either. I am not jealous of other men whatsoever.

If I'm betrayed, that has nothing to do with jealousy. That has to do with being betrayed. I'm still not jealous of the other man. I'll simply be angry with my SO and end the relationship.

To me, the feeling of being cheated on and jealousy are 2 different things.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

john117 said:


> Far from it.
> 
> I'm well off to do but not wealthy like trust fund baby wealthy. Money would be about last on the list.
> 
> ...


And modest to boot.


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Curse of Millhaven said:


> Oh and if he cheated on me…I would rip is fvcking heart out with my bare hands and eat it in front of him. Then I would snap a piccie of it and post it in the “What’s for Dinner?” thread.


 Tell us how you really feel, Curse . . .


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

This is what bothers me when people decide to share the not so glamorous side of their relationships.

Regardless of the timeframe or the circumstances, people weigh it, and comment upon it, as if it 'present'. This is understandable as the information may certainly be new for them. But the events aren't new.

This took place over 2 years ago. MEM has been a very active contributor since prior to that ... and particularly while his wife was actively trying to trigger him abandon the marriage while concealing the reason why.

He's sharing how it turned out, and how it impacted he and his wife ... in direct contrast to the common scenarios that play out here.

I applaud his candor, and I don't doubt for a moment that he will handle any criticism with grace.

I'm not blaming or finger-pointing at anyone in particular here, but it does irk me that we often feel compelled to punch holes in the circumstances of someones personal life, and presume that they are 'doing it wrong', when what they are doing seems to be working for the parties involved.

I've known MEM for quite some time. There is little doubt in my mind that he knows his boundaries, and his spouses. His spouse never treated him the way that many other women look to demonize, alienate, mock, disrespect, or otherwise utterly destabilize the marriage in order to justify their belief that their husband is unworthy ... one, supposedly because of her religion, but second, in my mind, because she knew ... he wouldn't possibly tolerate that kind of treatment. 
Didn't change the fact that she emotionally went where she quite simply never should have, but she never completely lost respect for her husband, or overtly and proactively looked to sabotage the marriage.
Context ... I say it all of the time. Knowing what I know of MEM, if I were to project his wife standing in front of him telling to his face the kind of abject lies that my ex told me, all the while with my knowing the truth, I don't believe he would have let it slide.

Whereas, once again in context, the behavior is in the rear view mirror. MEM and M2 came out on the other side. Still married, and presumably both still feeling rather fulfilled in their marriage.

Much like the fact that me and my ex now have a very open, and even more respectful relationship and attitude towards how we treat and interact with one another, than we did while we were married.

Behavior today is not always the determining factor for the behaviors or outcomes of tomorrow. Circumstances change ... and so too does how people choose to respond to them.

I didn't see this as a boast at all.

MEM chose to do what I consistently ask people to do ... share. And with that we can actively discuss or evaluate how people choose to respond to similar circumstances in an effort to help us all better understand those circumstances, and ourselves.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Curse,
That was the most civilized *post of fury* that I've ever seen. 

First of all - M2 is not neglected. In any manner shape or form. 

And - even though she didn't fvck the Oman I was angry and hurt when she told me that her crazy behavior of the prior 2+ years was caused by how she felt about him. 

But for me, angry+hurt <> desire to divorce 

I guess it helped that M2 never really stopped loving me. Even if she had moments where her desire for Oman made her - crazy. 

As for your situation - that's not good. I hope you realize that it isn't going to change. The self esteem acid bath that you are in will slowly consume you until there is nothing left. 






Curse of Millhaven said:


> MEM, I don’t know your situation (other than what you have graciously shared here) and I do not mean to be insulting or disrespectful in my reply; I hope you do not take it as such. This is a topic to which I have a visceral reaction as it is a bone of contention (in a whole graveyard of discord) in my marriage. My response is my experience with this specific topic and how it made me feel in the context of my dying intimacy-starved marriage. So sorry to verbally vomit my vitriol out in your thread, but I hope you know it doesn’t reflect any enmity on my part toward you, your truth, or your marriage or anyone else’s.
> 
> My husband and I have discussed our sexless “marriage” ad nauseam (at my behest…if it were up to him we would never speak of it) and the inherent risks and probable outcomes therein and he has let me know that if I cheat, he would understand…and forgive me. Which I cannot comprehend at all! I am fiercely loyal and possessive and I expect and want the same in a partner. If you are mine…You. Are. Mine. And I, in turn, am wholly yours. One flesh…let no man put asunder and all that crap. Foolishly I actually meant my vows and don’t recall promising to forsake most others and sometimes be faithful for as long as I feel like it or until somebody better comes along.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejo,

I still smile when I think back to your post in 2011. The one where you very politely told me that M2 was in love with someone else. 

I didn't believe it. Dismissed it out of hand. 

Partly because I had her on a moral pedestal. 

Lots of guys had hit on M2 over the years. She even had a couple of brief crushes and proactively told me of them as they happened. She never acted on them, never behaved inappropriately or encouraged those men. And then there were the many cases of guys flirting with her, and her totally ignoring it. 

Her history was one of impeccable behavior. And I traveled 4-5 days a week sometimes for years at a time, so despite having plenty of opportunity.....

And - well - there was the sex thing. Within a couple months of the Oman starting work with us, M2 went into full throttle geisha girl mode. She was bringing as much passion and intensity to bed as she had in our first year together. Except now she had 20 years experience with my body. 

At some level I knew the Oman was the catalyst for all this heat. But - the sexual bonding was powerful and overall we were getting along great in between episodes of BSC. But M2 has always been somewhat volatile, so it wasn't so obvious that this time it was different. 

So - you told me the truth. But in the moment I couldn't see it. 







Deejo said:


> This is what bothers me when people decide to share the not so glamorous side of their relationships.
> 
> Regardless of the timeframe or the circumstances, people weigh it, and comment upon it, as if it 'present'. This is understandable as the information may certainly be new for them. But the events aren't new.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

DoF,

Not divorcing doesn't mean an absence of consequence. 






DoF said:


> Be careful what you wish for is all I can tell you.
> 
> It's best to keep these thoughts in your head vs letting them out. Now you got her thinking.......and you DON'T know what you will do if you are ever in that position.
> 
> Not smart man, not smart.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

johnnycomelately said:


> And modest to boot.



Modesty is overrated. In real life I am slightly more modest but not by much. 

Think of the proverbial immigrant arriving in the USA 32 years ago with a suitcase of books, a suitcase of clothes, $500, and a graduate scholarship offer. 

32 years later I think I have done pretty well in most areas of my life...so I deserve a bit of rah rah!!!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Modesty is overrated. In real life I am slightly more modest but not by much.
> 
> Think of the proverbial immigrant arriving in the USA 32 years ago with a suitcase of books, a suitcase of clothes, $500, and a graduate scholarship offer.
> 
> 32 years later I think I have done pretty well in most areas of my life...so I deserve a bit of rah rah!!!


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> DoF,
> 
> Not divorcing doesn't mean an absence of consequence.


If I cheated, I don't think my husband would divorce me. What he would do would be to immediately withdraw his love from me and he could live that way in the same house with me for years. I couldn't though. It would kill me.

Also, it would hurt him so badly, and the thought of hurting him like that makes me feel physically sick.

So there are all kinds of consequences.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes.

I don't know for how long, but yes I would withdraw for some time. 

This would likely make M2 crazy. 

Jesus - what a total cluster fvck. 



QUOTE=Lyris;9605962]If I cheated, I don't think my husband would divorce me. What he would do would be to immediately withdraw his love from me and he could live that way in the same house with me for years. I couldn't though. It would kill me.

Also, it would hurt him so badly, and the thought of hurting him like that makes me feel physically sick.

So there are all kinds of consequences.[/QUOTE]


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Relax. It hasn't happened.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Lyris said:


> If I cheated, I don't think my husband would divorce me. What he would do would be to immediately withdraw his love from me and he could live that way in the same house with me for years. I couldn't though. It would kill me.



You'll get over it 

As much as I don't like loneliness - especially being the extrovert person that I am - I don't thing losing the love of a spouse would be my requiem.

I would not want it from my (ideal) spouse either. Or my kids. You grieve and you move on...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

The reality is that any of our spouses could die at any time. And we would be forced to accept it, and carry on.

We have to be able to stand on our own, even emotionally. And I know that can feel hard to do.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Curse of Millhaven....that was the funniest post I have read in YEARS and you should get some kind of special internet award.

Thank you for the huge belly laugh, and I am sorry for the (completely justified) angry emotions you have that were behind your post.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Why is it hard to believe that MEM11363 knows how he'd react to this given that he's already had to ponder and think about it once? This isn't specific to any particular post. Just the thread in general. I read the opening comment and believed him.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

And it won't. M2 is fully back in high admiration and real sexual desire mode. 




jld said:


> Relax. It hasn't happened.


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Why is it hard to believe that MEM11363 knows how he'd react to this given that he's already had to ponder and think about it once? This isn't specific to any particular post. Just the thread in general. I read the opening comment and believed him.


For those who don't know MEM's history, it's not entirely clear from the first post that he's already been through infidelity once.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thundarr,

Soon as I saw your avatar I knew you'd understand the concept of loyalty. 





Thundarr said:


> Why is it hard to believe that MEM11363 knows how he'd react to this given that he's already had to ponder and think about it once? This isn't specific to any particular post. Just the thread in general. I read the opening comment and believed him.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nora,
My first post on this thread was of very poor quality. It is hard to manage a thread that is launched so ineptly. 

Lesson learned. 




norajane said:


> For those who don't know MEM's history, it's not entirely clear from the first post that he's already been through infidelity once.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I did not think it was a bad post.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Yeah I'm not understanding the reactions to it. Kinda odd actually. I'm fairly sure most people have a general idea of what they're capable of handling in a relationship even if they haven't been in the situation before directly.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think we find out we can handle more than we ever thought possible, when a crisis actually hits.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I agree with that.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Curse of Millhaven said:


> ... This isn’t a marriage, it’s a goddamned cage; I’ve been sentenced to solitary confinement for the crime of loving a man incapable of loving me back. ...


You're an eloquent writer! Given your situation, why are you staying in a dysfunctional marriage with a dysfunctional husband? Are you also dysfunctional? I don't mean that in a nasty sense, but out of curiosity.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM, protecting people's feelings is not the most important thing we're doing on TAM. Speaking our truth is.

Truth hurts initially, but it is what can heal us. If we can hear it.

Speak your truth, and let other people take responsibility for their feelings.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Curse of Millhaven said:


> MEM, I don’t know your situation (other than what you have graciously shared here) and I do not mean to be insulting or disrespectful in my reply; I hope you do not take it as such. This is a topic to which I have a visceral reaction as it is a bone of contention (in a whole graveyard of discord) in my marriage. My response is my experience with this specific topic and how it made me feel in the context of my dying intimacy-starved marriage. So sorry to verbally vomit my vitriol out in your thread, but I hope you know it doesn’t reflect any enmity on my part toward you, your truth, or your marriage or anyone else’s.
> 
> My husband and I have discussed our sexless “marriage” ad nauseam (at my behest…if it were up to him we would never speak of it) and the inherent risks and probable outcomes therein and he has let me know that if I cheat, he would understand…and forgive me. Which I cannot comprehend at all! I am fiercely loyal and possessive and I expect and want the same in a partner. If you are mine…You. Are. Mine. And I, in turn, am wholly yours. One flesh…let no man put asunder and all that crap. Foolishly I actually meant my vows and don’t recall promising to forsake most others and sometimes be faithful for as long as I feel like it or until somebody better comes along.
> 
> ...


Does your husband have a reason for his disdain of intimacy? Is there a medical problem? Has he been checked by a doctor? Testosterone level measured? Etc.


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

.


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Curse of Millhaven....that was the funniest post I have read in YEARS and you should get some kind of special internet award.
> 
> Thank you for the huge belly laugh, and I am sorry for the (completely justified) angry emotions you have that were behind your post.


Thank you for finding the humor in my pain as I all too often do. And I mean that earnestly. One thing I got from my lovely mother (who is a DSM hydra of mental illness) is her ability to laugh through the tears. “It’s to laugh” she would always tell me no matter how bad things got. Best advice she ever gave me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Curse,
I took no offense at your post. When I read my response again I realized that it sounded defensive. 

You should write for a living. 

To be fair I did leave out one critical fact. 

At her absolute deepest points in the fog M2 never stopped having fairly frequent sex with me. 

So is the Curse of Millhaven (CoM) a curse attached to that location? If you were to move, would it be left behind? 

Or is your H the CoM? Or are you - perchance a witch, ergo the CoM is you. 

Or is it instead the title of a book you are writing?




Curse of Millhaven said:


> MEM I did not mean to imply that you were not taking care of your wife’s needs or that she was neglected, ergo she strayed. You sound like a wonderful husband and a good man. And in no way was I suggesting that how you chose to handle your specific situation was the “wrong” way…barring violence, murder, abuse, or suicide there really isn’t a wrong or right way to handle what is tantamount to a soul destroying wrecking ball smashing through your life. Whatever enables you to pick yourself up and keep on keeping on is all right by me.
> 
> Obviously anger and hurt do not equal divorce for me either. So I understand. And believe me, I am the very last person to judge how others cope with “difficult situations” in life or offer my advice on how they should have handled it better. I wouldn’t know “healthy”, “mature”, or “reasonable” if they came and introduced themselves before they took turns repeatedly kicking me in the ass then gave me their calling cards complete with identifying photos and the police asked me to pick them out of an emotionally appropriate lineup later. I’d shrug my shoulders and pick “crazy”, “lugubrious”, or “enraged” as my go to choices every time.
> 
> ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

...an onslaught of pandering penises....

...C0ck-du-soleil came to town....

Again, my dear lady, I wish I was able to hand you The Golden Internet Forum Post of the Year Award. Along with a blank check made out to the counselor of your choice.

Cheers!


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Asphole.

Woman, you're killing me!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,
There's this book called the 'Devils Dictionary', which is quite good. 

CoM, 
Henceforth to be known as Curses, could write a modern version of it. 

Just to recap:

Curses, 
Lives in a virtualized environment she refers to as fvcktardia. Her H, Asphole resides in Frigidistan but periodically commutes to wackoffistan, a region that lies within laptopistan. While there he satisfies his carnal needs leaving Curses woefully unsatisfied and generally woeful. 

Male visitors to fvcktardia, notice both Curses aesthetic and hormonal hotness (caused by aspholes denial of service) and want to bring her to Coq du soleil where they can do for her what Asphole should be doing, but isn't. 






Faithful Wife said:


> Asphole.
> 
> Woman, you're killing me!


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

Lyris said:


> If I cheated, I don't think my husband would divorce me. What he would do would be to immediately withdraw his love from me and he could live that way in the same house with me for years. I couldn't though. It would kill me.
> 
> Also, it would hurt him so badly, and the thought of hurting him like that makes me feel physically sick.
> 
> So there are all kinds of consequences.


This ^^^.

I can't imagine myself wanting to cheat on my H, but heaven help me if I did. The post above describes exactly what would happen. I would be a fool to take that risk.

H and I had a discussion about this yesterday. He confirmed that he is indeed the least jealous person we know. He said: "But why would I be jealous anyway? I trust you."


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Curse of Millhaven said:


> MEM, I don’t know your situation (other than what you have graciously shared here) and I do not mean to be insulting or disrespectful in my reply; I hope you do not take it as such. This is a topic to which I have a visceral reaction as it is a bone of contention (in a whole graveyard of discord) in my marriage. My response is my experience with this specific topic and how it made me feel in the context of my dying intimacy-starved marriage. So sorry to verbally vomit my vitriol out in your thread, but I hope you know it doesn’t reflect any enmity on my part toward you, your truth, or your marriage or anyone else’s.
> 
> My husband and I have discussed our sexless “marriage” ad nauseam (at my behest…if it were up to him we would never speak of it) and the inherent risks and probable outcomes therein and he has let me know that if I cheat, he would understand…and forgive me. Which I cannot comprehend at all! I am fiercely loyal and possessive and I expect and want the same in a partner. If you are mine…You. Are. Mine. And I, in turn, am wholly yours. One flesh…let no man put asunder and all that crap. Foolishly I actually meant my vows and don’t recall promising to forsake most others and sometimes be faithful for as long as I feel like it or until somebody better comes along.
> 
> ...



That was an exceptional post! Loved every word. The bolded part most especially.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Nora,
> My first post on this thread was of very poor quality. It is hard to manage a thread that is launched so ineptly.
> 
> Lesson learned.


It wasn't the quality of your OP MEM. It is yet more evidence of TAM CWI law being held as the gold standard and all else is shyte.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Great post CoM, but " I’m not a cheater cheater penis eater"

:lol: Is hands down the best phrase I've read in a long time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Curse of Millhaven said:


> Yes, after months of my requesting he finally had his testosterone checked. It’s normal. Squarely in the middle of normal, even. I already know what the issue is. There is no cure. This is not going away. My lovely, shy, solitary, brilliant oddball was diagnosed with Asperger’s years after we were married. And he is not sexually attracted to me….he likes porn and big tits and he cannot lie. He admitted this in the second year of our marriage and Asperger’s is like a truth serum…his guilelessness is almost a painful form of purity.
> 
> So why the fvck did he marry me then, you might ask (I know I did)…his reply…”because I love you. You were so pretty and smart and you loved me and were good to me.” I can’t blame him. He can’t help that he’s an Asphole and he does try to love me. But I’m a fool for trying. This will never get better. I’ve read the books, done the time. We are like two misshapen puzzle pieces that don’t fit in anywhere else so we are trying to smash ourselves together to complete some perverse picture of a marriage. The end result isn’t clear to me yet, but I’m pretty sure it’s a Hieronymus Bosch painting.


Yearning for the kind of love you feel for someone and coming to terms with the unassailable fact that they are not capable is only step 1 of solving the puzzle of happiness. You also have step 2 well under way, discovering the answer to "am I entitled to be happy?" Yes you are and you know that you are. 

Do you have the courage to act on this knowledge?

Cue the angry mob....

Time to start investigating exactly how one would go about finding a healthy partner. Time to look around and first identify the village idiots to be able to stay away from them. Then identify potential candidates and strike up conversations. Time to purposefully put yourself into situations in which meeting and engaging with potentials could take place.

I'm not suggesting you begin an affair, I am suggesting you start acting available. I'm suggesting you increase your comfort level with engaging with potentials.

When you've lived a life of emotional poverty you have no idea how to create emotional wealth.

Go out and learn to create emotional wealth.


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## Whip Morgan (May 26, 2011)

MEM,

If I can remembr correctly, you once made a post that your wife's affair (EA) ended because her OM moved. Is that correct?

Also, I was curious about what you think your wife feels about her affair, now? Does she feel remorse for hurting you, and for her actions to try to end the marriage? Any traces of regret that she was not able to have the relationship with OM that she wanted?


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

Personal said:


> Please accept my apologies MEM11363 for the following diversion.
> 
> Yet I'd like to say The Curse of Millhaven is a great song amongst many great songs. Both my wife and I have enjoyed seeing Nick Cave & the Bad Seeds live in concert. Unfortunately we can't listen to Murder Ballads at home or in the car when the kids are around.
> 
> Best of luck Curse of Millhaven in trying to fix or leave Fvcktardia.


Thank you for the well wishes. And sorry for this tangent too, MEM! Both my husband and I are great admirers of Nick Cave as well. One of the first things we bonded over was our mutual love of him (my husband had even read And The Ass Saw the Angel, which impressed me immensely), amid other shared interests like Tom Waits, Charles Bukowski, and bad horror movies. With that mix I should have seen the writing on the wall. 

We do not have little ones so Murder Ballads is regularly enjoyed quite loudly and sung along with very, very poorly. I especially love belting out Stagger Lee; always gives me a special little thrill.

In related news….

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/magazine/i-am-the-real-nick-cave.html?emc=eta1&_r=0 
20,000 Days On Earth 

Can’t wait!


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Whip,
We sold the business which was their only touch point. 

She confessed 7-8 months after we had sold the business 
to relieve her guilty conscience. 

The day she confessed I asked when she/he had last had contact of any time. Calls/text/emails/ in person. She said they had not. 

Remorseful enough for a full recon, not quite as remorseful as I would have had to be, situation reversed 

As for regrets about the OM. All I know is that she is completely in love with me again - consistently. I believe that's because he's completely faded from her mind. 

In the 12 months after we sold the business (when they informally went NC) she did go through a low level but extended withdrawal. She was noticeably more irritated by my shortcomings. That has completely disappeared. 




Whip Morgan said:


> MEM,
> 
> If I can remembr correctly, you once made a post that your wife's affair (EA) ended because her OM moved. Is that correct?
> 
> Also, I was curious about what you think your wife feels about her affair, now? Does she feel remorse for hurting you, and for her actions to try to end the marriage? Any traces of regret that she was not able to have the relationship with OM that she wanted?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Curses,
Pirates are welcome. 





Curse of Millhaven said:


> Well, that’s a true story right there. Although for full accuracy, in addendum, it should be mentioned that we both visit Whackoffistan, sadly me more than him. I have many, many frequent flyer miles to Whackoffistan where I routinely treat my gal to a night of dancing at the Two Finger Tango.
> 
> And “Curses” is a fairly apt moniker for me; I know I have a problem with rampant “potty mouth”. I’m sorry I swear like a sailor. I would promise to stop but that would be a lie. And it’s really only a problem inside the funhouse of my head. Or when I attempt to express that madness in writing. Or when I’m driving. Or when in flagrante delicto. Or when I’m talking to myself. Or you know, when I’m awake.
> 
> Thank you again for being so gracious, MEM, and allowing me the latitude to discuss my issues here in your thread. I hope you forgive me for the continued diversion as I’ve written out a response to Anon Pink’s last post here. Although it does include issues of inappropriate emotional entanglements (opposite sex friendships gone awry) and avoiding possible EA’s/PA’s so in a sort of weird roundabout way it is on topic for this thread. No? Yes? Maybe? I don’t know. If you’d rather I desist from pirating your thread to discuss my sinking ship, please let me know and I will respectfully delete it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CoM, that was a delightful read! I particularly liked this part.



> My tea bags have inspirational quotes on the little paper anchors and today’s nuggets of annoying wisdom were: “Live in your strength” and “Let your heart guide you.” To which I replied…”oh yeah? Well, fvck you very much for the platitudes but HOW exactly do I do that??? Oh and P.S. my halfwit heart couldn’t find its way out of a room that has only one door with a clearly marked exit sign and an obvious trail of breadcrumbs leading out while being strapped to a pre-set GPS robot designed to pick up breadcrumbs and locate exits!!! And you want me to follow that dumb b!tch?!?!” And then I realized I was yelling at my teacup and the dogs were looking at each other like “awkward”, so I let it go.


But sister friend, you are hiding behind your extraordinary cleverness.

I noticed this...



> First, I’m a dumbass.


You certainly are, but not for the reasons you site.

You are a dumb ass because you don't realize, didn't see, haven't accepted the fact that your turned away something that might have been the closest we come to excellence in relationship material with your animals right vegan guru, so that you could cling to someone who would give you much the same of what you've always had...a whole lotta nothing.

However, in light of the fact that I have done the exact same thing, but not really, I can't stay on my soap box wagging my finger. I have no lost love in my past, I have no other personal experience with forming a relationship that includes sex that doesn't include serious safety issues. But like you, I cannot bring myself to put this dog down.

Do our husbands love us? Yes they do. 

Can they love us as we wish to be loved, have asked to be loved, purchased the book written a synopsis and highlighted the good parts? Probably not. History and action have shown minor and temporary improvements that make our hearts sing with joy followed by a return to normal in short order.

Do we cling to hope that one day things will be different, perhaps we will stop being so needy, perhaps our fears will magically disappear? Yes, unequivocally yes we stupidly cling to hope because a few drops of water can keep a plant from dying but it won't allow the plant to thrive.

In my case, at least I have sex almost as often as I want it. And in your case, at least you have an honest answer from your husband.

So many reasons why it would be a heck of a lot easier to make this work but the bottom line is fear. At least for me it is. I know but haven't figured out what to do about it. 

What if this actually is as good as it gets and I threw it all away?

I just don't like being here anymore. I don't like being in the place I'm in and I don't like being at TAM. It's all the same, people unhappy yet too afraid to actually make a change. Unhappy enough to not be happy but not miserable enough to take that leap.

As for you my dear sister in suffering... You fear putting yourself out there because your single days have shown you that you actually can creat emotional connection with decent men. I think that is what you fear, because you do seem fearless in most other respects. If you have already been able to do that, then you can do it again.



> I’m not sure how it happens but I always fvck it up in the end.


No you haven't fvcked up anything. You've walked away which is different from fvcking it up. You gravitate toward the relationship that doesn't work for you because it's the same thing you've always had.

Your husband is unfixable. Don't you ever break down in tears after the two fingered tango wondering why the husband won't or can't make you feel that way? Or do you just accept it as your lot in life?

Your husband has already accepted that his neglect is likely to lead you into the arms of another man. He accepts it! He accepts it?

You do realize that was an absolute declaration of steadfast neglect, right?

A little over a year ago I went to happy hour with the girls and we ran into my 7th grade boyfriend. I did not remember that we had been "dating" but I remembered him. We laughed and joked and in the end I wrote on a ****tail napkin my promise to give him first crack at my married ass should I decide to cheat on my husband. I signed it and dated it and my friends witnessed it. I thought it was hysterical and told my husband all about it. His response was, "I should be the one flirting with you and complimenting you not old boy friends you run into at bars."

No kidding Sherlock! So whatchya gonna do about it.... And we're waiting and waiting and waiting.



> He holds me so close in his heart, but so very far from it in life. When he does try to discuss his feelings with me it’s like a cat literally got his tongue…I can see his mind working and his mouth moves silently as he tries to formulate what he wishes to convey yet nothing comes out. It’s just so odd, like watching someone under a silence spell or something.


Yes, that's my husband exactly. Except my husband is obliging in the bedroom. That part is quite good actually. But is it enough?

That's why I sometimes wonder about asking him if I can have an affair. I want to know if sex creates feelings that aren't really there. I want to know if I could seriously go through with it. I can flirt with the best of them but the moment it seems anything more than just plain meaningless laughs, I'm out! I want to know if I could stay in it.

Back when I first thought seriously of divorcing, I joked with my friends and asked if they would arrange a marriage or long term relationship for me. The thought of dating scares me to no end. I don't think I could do it.

You, dear sister, could!


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Curse of Millhaven said:


> I don’t like being here anymore either. In any of it. The tar pit of my marriage, TAM with all the pain, suffering, arguing, cliques, and weird backbiting (it’s like high school without the eating disorders and mandatory PE!), and I really hate it here in my head. I’m exhausted and yet I can’t sleep. And when I do, I have nightmares. * And you know what’s really fvcked up about that…it’s my husband’s name I cry out during these awful dreams. He’s the one I call to; he’s the one I want to help me, to save me from whatever bad memory or terror is gripping me. And the saddest thing is…he does. He will reach over and wake me, soothe me from the torment in my mind. And I love him for that and for so many other things. * This is agony.


Of course you do. He's meeting your deepest emotional needs. That is why you have not left him.

Another man might be able to give you sexual pleasure, but will he make you feel as safe as this one does? That's what's holding you back. You know how rare it is to find that in a man.

This could be such a lesson to men here. Meet your wife's deepest emotional needs, and you will own her. When you have her trust, she is truly yours.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

breeze said:


> Just wanted to say that I think you get negative reactions because people feel you don't display enough humility. It can come across as, "look how wonderful I am for not being jealous, you should all bow down to me". Not quite that bad, lol, but hackles go up nonetheless. Makes them want to hamstring you. "Won't be so brash writhing in pain on the ground, will ya!" Anyway, that's just the vibe I was feeling here.


I take this is directed about MEM's posts? Funny, I've not perceived his posts that way at all. I've taken them to be an offering of a different way to consider things and what he's discovered about himself and/or his marriage. I often derive value from and relate to posts even if I don't respond on the thread. And value reading MEM's thoughts, amongst others.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hearts,
Thank you for that. I feel the same about your posts. 

This was an interesting life experience, though not one I have a desire to repeat. 

The funny thing is that - on TAM, you have capital offenses such as:
- cheating
- having an affair 
- infidelity

And then you have every other type offense. 

The man thing missing from my story, is the part that the Fidelity Police are adamant about: punishment

The FP get very angry at any BS who doesn't properly punish their WS. 

But why would you punish someone for something that's already:
- 6+ months in the past 
- they voluntarily confess
- are/were clearly feeling very guilty and 
- just as clearly have no intention of repeating the offense






heartsbeating said:


> I take this is directed about MEM's posts? Funny, I've not perceived his posts that way at all. I've taken them to be an offering of a different way to consider things and what he's discovered about himself and/or his marriage. I often derive value from and relate to posts even if I don't respond on the thread. And value reading MEM's thoughts, amongst others.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Hearts,
> Thank you for that. I feel the same about your posts.
> 
> This was an interesting life experience, though not one I have a desire to repeat.
> ...


No kidding, MEM. Thoughts are pretty simple on TAM about cheating.

If a man would come on and admit things that he did that could have led his wife to be open to cheating on him, he would be laughed at and called a doormat. And yet I think that man would have a much better chance of a true reconciliation with his wife than a lot of the "victim" betrayed husbands.

Victimhood is very tightly clung to TAM. The "victims" support each other very strongly. And with that kind of "support" and reassurance, these guys get stuck in bitterness and resentment.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jld said:


> No kidding, MEM. Thoughts are pretty simple on TAM about cheating.
> 
> If a man would come on and admit things that he did that could have led his wife to be open to cheating on him, he would be laughed at and called a doormat. And yet I think that man would have a much better chance of a true reconciliation with his wife than a lot of the "victim" betrayed husbands.
> 
> Victimhood is very tightly clung to TAM. The "victims" support each other very strongly. And with that kind of "support" and reassurance, these guys get stuck in bitterness and resentment.


Ya, we all suck for making the decision to stand up and not take any shyte off anyone that betrays us. We are the real azzholes here


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

V,
This isn't about rolling over, it is about self awareness. 

Tolerating an ongoing affair is a no go. 

Same thing for a sexless marriage. 

A turning point in the fog was when M2 proposed the latter. She expected me to either:
- walk away (file) or
- rage at her or 
- try to persuade her to sleep with me 

Instead I told her she shouldn't do anything she didn't want to do. And that we could take as long a break as possible. And during our break I would outsource. 




vellocet said:


> Ya, we all suck for making the decision to stand up and not take any shyte off anyone that betrays us. We are the real azzholes here


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> V,
> This isn't about rolling over, it is about self awareness.
> 
> Tolerating an ongoing affair is a no go.


And tolerating a non-ongoing affair is a no go......for some.

I simply take offense at the attitude towards some men that can see the definite perils to staying with a cheater as a "victim" husband. Yes, lets just treat the cheaters with kid gloves and insinuate those that won't tolerate it as somehow weak as if we view ourselves as victims. 

Where we "victims" of a cheater. Yes.

ARE we victims? No.

To insinuate "victims" insinuates our betrayers have power over us.

Now I will say that bashing someone that decides to stay with a cheater is absolutely wrong. I am in their corner.
Only time I will have words with someone is when we are trying to get them to wake up, and help them, that they start to get defensive because their already predetermined course of action isn't what they are hearing from us. And in those cases I simply let them know if that's what they wanted to do from the get go, then do it.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Ya, we all suck for making the decision to stand up and not take any shyte off anyone that betrays us. We are the real azzholes here


Vel, you sound defensive!

Isn't there some truth to it? When things are not going the way we want it, it is pretty easy to feel a victim. It doe not mean that the cheater spouse is right. But it does not mean that 100% of the blame should be on the cheater spouse either.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> Vel, you sound defensive!


That's because I am.




> Isn't there some truth to it? When things are not going the way we want it, it is pretty easy to feel a victim. It doe not mean that the cheater spouse is right. But it does not mean that 100% of the blame should be on the cheater spouse either.


Yes, 100% of the blame should be on the cheater spouse...FOR THEIR CHEATING. Lots of BS, including myself as an x-BS, can admit they had a role to play in the state of their marriage. But they have absolutely no blame in being cheated on. That lies solely with the WS. And those that try to give the "reasons" why they cheated and pointing the finger at their BS piss me the hell off.

And even though this thread is about jealousy of being cheated on, I am always leary of the "I do not intend to disturb or anger you" when there is an implied "BUT" after it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Did your ex cheat on you more than once, vell? Sorry, I do not know your story.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jld said:


> Did your ex cheat on you more than once, vell? Sorry, I do not know your story.


Yup, with 3 different men that I know of and suspected couple of others. Needless to say I'm glad she is her new man's problem. And boy is he controlling her every move. Sucks to be her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Yup, with 3 different men that I know of and suspected couple of others. Needless to say I'm glad she is her new man's problem. And boy is he controlling her every move. Sucks to be her.


She might like that, though. Some women find it comforting. It makes them feel safe.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

MEM,

I don't for one moment believe you don't have the jealousy gene. If you don't, consider yourself a Darwin dead end on the tree of evolution. That behavior is there for a very good reason.

Perhaps you just haven't found something to be jealous about yet?


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jld said:


> She might like that, though. Some women find it comforting. It makes them feel safe.


Uh huh. Someone who desires strange will enjoy being controlled and her every move watched Oh, and he dotted her eye once too. Wonder if she enjoyed that?


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## phoenix_ (Dec 20, 2013)

CarlaRose said:


> Okay. That's nice. And it reminds me of hearing/reading that men are more apt to forgive an affair than women are. The explanation, well one explanation, was that men know how it is to be attracted to someone else and often wish they could act on their attractions.


I'd like to see an article on that, I'd be very surprised if it's accurate.
If my wife even flirted with another guy it would be over between us. I'm not exaggerating.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

CarlaRose said:


> And it reminds me of hearing/reading that men are more apt to forgive an affair than women are.


Is that so? I understood it to be the other way around. Something to do with men being more interested in ego preservation.

I don't have the jealousy thing either, but cheating either sends me packing (whether it hurts me to do so or not), or I'd declare an open relationship and she can stay or go. For me, it would be more about self-respect and justice.


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