# In-Law Trouble, would like objective viewpoint



## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Hello all, I am having an issue in my marriage because of an in-law. Here is my story: When my husband and I got married we were roommates with his brother, then a month after we were married his sister got kicked out of his other brother's house and moved into our small apartment. Since then we are no longer roommates with his brother, he has his own place now, but his sister has lived with us since then (4 years now). That same year she moved in with us, she got pregnant. The father of the child refused to take responsibility for it. I felt sorry for her, and more so for the child, which is why I had been okay with them living with us for so long. My sister-in-law does not work, though she has had jobs in the past, they never last long. 

My issue now is that I am flat out tired of her living with us. I will admit I ignored this issue for some time but I truly cannot stand her being here because of her recent attitude and actions. In May, she started inviting friends over to our home that I have never seen before and quite frankly looked shady. I confronted her, albeit angrily - which is the first time I have EVER confronted her, and told her that since it was 10:30 on a Monday night, her friend needed to leave. 3 days later I apologized for yelling at her and laid down some rules about her having guests over. 2 weeks ago, she did something else to anger me and I went to her and told her in an even tone why I was angry at her. She responded with a smart-alik remark so I ended the conversation and went to my room. Well later, I went to ask her why she said what she said and a heated argument ensued. She basically told me my prior apology months ago was half-a'''' and we just talked in circles without her really listening to me until she told me to quit the smokescreen and just tell her that I want her gone. I said that was the best thing for us as I do not see us having a relationship if we continue to live with each other. I told her that when the issue we were arguing about was resolved in 3 weeks, she would have to leave. 

Well, my little sister graduated college last month and moved in with us while she is job hunting. I had, previous to the above mentioned fight, asked my husband how he would feel if I asked his sister to move out, he said "nothing" And I asked...even though my sister lives with us? Would you feel it is unfair? He said no. You are my wife and I will support you. WELL today we were discussing it again and he said that me kicking out his sister makes him feel guilty because she has a child and he is afraid of what his mom will say to him about it. Then he began to ask when my sister is moving out, I stated that "the minute she gets a job" which she is looking for every day and keeps me updated on her job search and asks me for help with her resume, etc. 

I do understand the guilt he feels. I feel that guilt for the child, however she needs to take care of her child and there are 2 other brothers that my sister-in-law could live with. She just does not want to live with them because they are older and will set many rules for her to follow.

I do not feel it is fair for him to compare his sister to mine, as their situations are not apple to apple. Please give me your opinion on this. I feel like a total hag for telling her to leave soon. What should I do?


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## wilted_flower (Jul 25, 2010)

I think, although the timing is unfortunate, you're not wrong. Your SIL should have been trying to find other arrangements, not living with you guys indefinitely. What were the terms when she moved in? Were they indefinite, or was there a timeframe? 
I think there should have been some kind of conversation, or framed somehow "we'll help you get back on your feet..." but I think it's unreasonable for her to assume that she can just live there forever. 

As for allowing your sister to stay, in this case there is a definitive time period, or at least a concrete goal in sight. It's not like you kicked out his sister to let yours come live in the same fashion. You're doing the same thing for your own sister that you did for his- helping out. The difference is that your sister won't take advantage of the situation. 

The timing is unfortunate, but it is YOUR house and you don't have to let anybody stay there if you don't want to.


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Thank you for your response. To answer your questions: The fashion in which she came to live with us was: One Saturday morning I woke up to see her carrying boxes into our apartment. She never actually came to ask my husband or I if she could live with us. I assumed at the time that she discussed it with my brother in law because she proceeded to move into his room in the apartment. Well I found out later that was not the case because he became angry at her for moving in. They all talked sometime when I was not home and decided to let her stay. I thought it was a temporary situation. Thats what I get for letting my husband handle his family business 

Later when we moved apartments, we were still rommies with the bil, but he got fired from his job and crashed my husband's car...then was not paying bills, etc. So then my husband and I decided to downgrade apartments, without the brother in law as a roomie, however by this time her baby was less than a year old so she came along with us....Last year we got a house and, even though I told my husband that when we get a house I want it to be just us, she once again came along....Thought that was my fault for not being extremely clear with the both of them.....

Also, the way in which I found out she was pregnant was that I saw a coupon postcard in the mail from Gerber that said "Welcome, Baby...." I wasn't pregnant and she was the only other female in the household.

Oh gosh what is there left to do?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I think you ought to stop allowing relatives to live with you--your own sister included.

No good deed goes unpunished.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

You've been living for a very long time in a "triangular" situation. You've become very used to it. You and your husband need time together and for yourselves.

Life can at times pass by very quickly, sometimes it purely rushes by. You've had people who aren't your children living with you for How Long? Can you believe that?

You and your husband don't know one another as well as you should simply because you've other "adults" living with you. Once you're by yourselves you will begin to get to know one another. I reckon it's going to feel a very different world to you both and will feel strange to you. But it is how things should be between man and wife.

Bob


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

quirky_girl said:


> WELL today we were discussing it again and he said that me kicking out his sister makes him feel guilty because she has a child and he is afraid of what his mom will say to him about it.


There's a thought.... Perhaps "mom" can take care of her and the child. Also, I'm sure the courts can persuade your niece's father to be responsible. This on-going financial burden isn't your responsibility.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Family are best with distance.

You had reasons to kick the sister out, but you should have discussed it with him. Your sister is a different circumstance, but one that could develop into the same situation. make it clear to her that there is a deadline for her to move out... job or not. This is only fair.

Then you both need to agree that your house is not a hotel for family.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Read this book: The Dance of Anger. As soon as possible.


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

turnera, thank you for the reading suggestion. I did read the book and it was quite insightful about relationship "triangles" and how we take out our anger at one person on another.

Everyone, please, I need advise on my next step:
I told my sil last time we spoke that it would be best if she leaves. she has not packed anything, 3 weeks later, and has not moved out. granted, when i said this was while we were arguing and perhaps she did not take me seriously. or maybe i did not say it clearly enough....whatever the reason I want to confront her this weekend and ask her if she has found another place to stay, and if not then i want to tell her she has to move out by the end of august. 

i know i should talk about this with my husband first, but how do i bring this up with him? and then how do i bring this up with her for that matter?

please help!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just do it. Tell him the truth. Tell him you don't want him to think badly of you but you can't survive like this. And you need his help and support, because you are going to talk to her this weekend.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Be careful. You want your husband on your side in this fight. He should be there, you should review and agree on the language and boundaries you are setting (dates, costs, etc...) beforehand and then address SIL.


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

I talked to SIL Saturday and the conversation went like this:
Me: Have thought about what we talked about last we spoke?
Her: And that is?
Me: You moving out.
Her: I'll work on it.

I don't really know how to take that conversation. I just spoke with my husband tonight about it and he said that we will give her six months to get a job and get her own place. And that if she does not do that in six months she has to leave regardless. (She has 3 other brothers who live near us who could take her in) 

My husband told me to relay that information on to her. He said that he wants to stay out of it, but that he does show support to me by not talking to her about the situation because he does not want to contradict anything I have told her. In a way I do appreciate that...however I find myself resenting him saying that he does not want to be involved because this is something I have started....and he does not feel comfortable kicking her out without giving her time to get on her feet (I was screaming INSIDE to myself...it has been 4 years shes been living with us! is that not time enough!) but I am trying my best to only speak in calm, thoughtful tones and to think before I speak. I have come to realize that holding things inside and then blowing up only makes me look like a hysterical woman......I feel I can live with this choice. 

Now....How do I broach this next conversation with her when she gave me the cold shoulder in the last conversation?


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I see so many things wrong here.

First, tell your husband to grow a set and sit there with you when you BOTH address your SIL (HIS sister).

Second, SIL gives you the cold shoulder because you have no teeth. With your husband sitting on the sidelines, she knows that there isn't a united front against her so she can just bide her time.

third, did you actually stop the conversation when she said "I'll work on it"??? WTF??? No wonder she is still there!

Here's what you do... another conversation with her tonight with your husband, not you, delivering the message. She has until the end of August to leave. It's not your problem where she goes or whether or not she has a job. Your husband then calls his three brothers and tells them that SIL will be out of your apartment by the end of August and if they know a place or job for her, let her know ASAP.

You then start measuring the room, bringing in paint and drop cloths so she knows that you intend to take the room back on September 1.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Chris Taylor said:


> did you actually stop the conversation when she said "I'll work on it"??? WTF??? No wonder she is still there!
> 
> Here's what you do... another conversation with her tonight with your husband, not you, delivering the message. She has until the end of August to leave. It's not your problem where she goes or whether or not she has a job. Your husband then calls his three brothers and tells them that SIL will be out of your apartment by the end of August and if they know a place or job for her, let her know ASAP.
> 
> You then start measuring the room, bringing in paint and drop cloths so she knows that you intend to take the room back on September 1.


 Couldn't have said it better.

If H refuses to join you, you might want to tell him he can consider moving, too, since you will not be married to a man without a pair.

Good grief, woman! Show some backbone! They are BOTH using you!


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Thank you for your responses! I was beginning to imagine that I was crazy and only thinking that people are using me! It is reassuring to get all your point of view because it lets me know that I am not thinking totally irrationally. And it brings me comfort, esp. whenever I am told that I am a bad person for thinking badly of people because I think they are using me. This is what has happened since my last post:
My husband spoke to her without my telling him to and without my knowledge that he was doing so. He told her what we spoke about and told her that she has six months to move out. I am surprised that he did it, and am glad that he did so that she cannot avoid the issue. (I do however think you guys are right in that it really should be us BOTH talking to her at the same time about it as a united front.)
So...Today when I got home from work, she came to me and told me that she was sad about this whole situation. I let her talk, even when she blamed me for the uneasiness in this household and with all those that live here. Truly a lot of what she said did not make sense, but one thing did. She said that I handled the situation badly and should have come and talked to her each time she did something I did not like. OK. I apologized for yelling at her before and said that I am making this decision to have you move out because I want my home, and my life, to be as I see fit. 
She had nothing to say in response. Am I totally off in thinking that if she had not been mooching off us for so long that I would not feel this resentment toward her and my husband...and thus there would be no uneasiness in our relationship? sheesh....I did not say this to her, though, because when I do criticize her she only becomes defensive (predictably) and I am seen as the bad guy. Her and my husband can continue in their provider/take relationship only if I let myself been seen as the bad guy. I think it will only change when I let my husband confront his issues with his sister in his own heart (instead of me saying...don't you feel used? don't you want her to move on? etc)You are right, I need to not let people off the hook so easily, it is so frustrating to talk to someone who views the world in such a different way than you. She keeps blaming our cultural differences and other such nonsense. In the end it comes down to that I am not comfortable helping her anymore and will not compromise myself to meet my husband's need/want to take care of his older sister, or for any of her needs either.
??????????


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read The Dance of Anger yet? I can't remember.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

OK. So now she knows she has six months, way too long in my opinion but the line has been drawn.

Don't let either your SIL or husband off the hook.

You both now have to make sure she is looking for a job and apartment hunting. Keep your eyes open for a job for her. Provide her with details (cut an ad out of the paper or print out an ad from an on-line source). Don't just say "X store may be hiring". 

She is going to need a job before she gets an apartment so the sooner she does the sooner she will be out.

Be strong. You have made a foothold in the fight. Don't back down/


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Turnera: I have read the Dance of Anger. It really has provided me with a new perspective. I have been thinking that maybe her reaction to me was a Change Back response, to guilt me into going back into my old patterns to blame myself and feel sorry for her..... Do you think this is right? How do I then respond to her after she does something like this?

Chris: Thank you for your encouragement. I really do appreciate getting a fresh perspective. You are all right that I have had no backbone and no teeth. I was so afraid of someone not loving me that I sacrificed myself


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes, I do agree. Do what YOU need. He will follow.


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

My husband and I just got into an argument. again. The issue was that he was talking to his sister in their home language (which I do not speak) and my name came up. Later, I asked him what was said and he refused to tell me, then he said 'we were saying you were a crazy b*ch'. An argument ensued. It was only after I provoked him (calling his sister a b*ch for talking about me - note she was not home when we had the argument)that he told me what was said, and what was said was not anything mean. I asked him, then why didn't you just tell me when I asked you calmly? He said because you get upset about everything. He then proceeded to tell me that my sister has to move out and I said...she will if your sister has six months so does mine and he said "no, my sister stays...yours has to move today" I knew he would end up playing this card someday. He said "as much as I pay in rent, i don't want someone living here i don't want" Well, this is how I feel about his sister! She has lived off us for four years and my sister has only been here two months while she is job hunting. He then says "well you can go too" For some reason at this point in the argument, perhaps because he was becoming more heated, I became calm and started to talk more calmly to him. He then says "i don't want to talk....yeah just keep talking but i am not listening". 

i hate him....no if i truly did then I would just divorce him and get over it. I do not know what to do. I find myself at night always dreaming of being married to someone who loves me and holds me tight, keeps me safe and it is never anyone who looks like him. 

I sent him an email after we fought....just like me always the one apologizing.....I have pasted the email below: 

"Let me start out by saying that I am sorry for what I have put you through. I am sorry for bringing confrontation to you when it is unwarranted.

I realize that what I have done to my life is to put everyone else before me. And then in only the crucial, argumentative moments do I voice my own opinion. The life I am living is not one I am proud of. The only communication I have with my husband is during an argument. I find myself provoking you to get a statement from you. I know of all my past sins and that I have a short temper. I blame myself for you not talking to me and giving me answers when I ask you a question. I became very hurt when I heard you talking about me and I did not know what you were saying. It makes me feel like an outsider whenever this happens and I ask you what was said and you won't tell me.

You are not responsible for what I feel. I have a right to my own emotions. I do not like being kept in the dark because you do not want me to get upset about something. I deserve to know and my reaction is mine. When things are kept from me, I believe it is because there is something wrong.

I desire so much for it to work out that I feel myself putting so much effort into it and not getting any return. Every time I voice my opinion it falls on deaf ears. I have told you since the first day that you and I and your siblings lived together that I did not feel comfortable. I felt that you did not value my comfort, so in an effort to keep you happy I forsake my own happiness and kept quiet. I worked long hours and stayed away from our home in an attempt to avoid the situation. I have felt this way for four years and it has worn on me. My anger is coming out in many different forms and I do not like it. "

Please I need some advice. I want to cut and run....is this the right choice? is there anything worth saving here? What do I need to do? I am lost....


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I think you are both living in two very different worlds in your heads and hearts even though you’re sharing a home together. You are together but separate from one another. I think you’ve had an exceptionally tough time and have been exceedingly empathetic, patient and tolerant.

But you know what? We run out of patience, tolerance and empathy. We don’t have a bottomless pit of those things. When we’ve run out of those other things go as well. Compassion and sympathy are usually the first things out the door followed by respect.

When we’ve run dry of patience, tolerance, empathy, compassion, sympathy and respect we finally run out of love and get to the point where we think “What the heck”. I’ve one life and I’m not enjoying it no matter what I do.

That’s what happened to me and I became intolerant, I built my boundaries. My wife trashed my boundaries and was out the door.

Think about it for a little while if you are truly at the same point as I was. I use an internalised expression “My wife killed off my love for her”. That’s how I see it, it took her a very long time but she did it. I’m 61 on my own but far more deeply happy that I’ve been in a long while. And you know what, I don’t have to be concerned about my wife’s issues any more and that makes feel even happier.

Bob


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Agreed. Decide what your boundaries are (what you can and can't live with) and relay those to your husband.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

What an incredibly selfish man he is. He won't let your sister stay with you for a short period of time? You have taken care of HIS sister by providing a roof over her head and that of her child for 4 years, fed her and the child, financially supported her and the child and allowed her to take up space, your space. It has made you uncomfortable and feeling used. He had you do his dirty work for him in forcing you to tell her to leave because he was too weak a man to own up and "grow a pair". Now he has the audacity to talk with his sister calling you a nasty word knowing that you could not understand what was being said. He puts the feelings of his mother and sister before yours.
I would think long and hard about who you want to move out. If it were me it would be his sister AND him.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

One thing that keeps getting me is how much women keep apologising. We practically apologise for breathing when we get scared of our partner leaving/throwing us out.

Do you really feel like it was your fault he called you names when you asked him what they were saying about you? No, it wasn't, it was him being cruel. You have every right to push him about that.

You aren't sorry for feeling how you are feeling. Stop apologising. Be truthful with him about how you are feeling. If you are getting angry about it, be honest, don't tell him you are feeling sorry when you aren't, it'll only make you even more resentful and he'll put the blame for everything where the blame is so easily put; on the person who takes it.

I have to add, I could be wrong, but I think apologies in situations where you shouldn't apologise can be taken as a sign of weakness, and lose you the respect of the person to whom you are apologising.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Breeze,
That was a wonderful post! I am guilty of that. I will remember your words for the future.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

quirky_girl
Something else has happened since I’m no longer with my wife. My wife’s family are what I see as a pretty dysfunctional lot. Their core inner values and beliefs are way different to mine. Over the years this has had a seriously detrimental affect on my emotions. I tried to cope with them believing that was part of my role as my wife’s husband, she loves her family very much and is exceedingly loyal to them. I spent time and energy helping them out when they were in trouble. But you know what? All I ever got from them in return was abuse of who I am as a person. And never once did my wife stand up for me with what her family was doing. The way I see it now is that she’s gone back to the vipers nest, but that’s being unkind to snakes.

Now I’m separated from my wife I am also separated from my wife’s family and it is a truly wonderful feeling. I’m out in a new world and on a new journey of discovery about other people.

Bob


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

He pays the rent and you work long hours... where does your money go?

How about finding a small apartment for yourself and sister and letting the a-hole husband and a-hole SIL live together and see how old that gets real fast?


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Thank you all for your posts, it truly helps to talk freely about this even if only online.
My husband and I did have a long talk after our last fight and I told him some things that I had been wanting to tell him for awhile. I told him that I do not feel that he views me as his family, and that he does not put me first. I told him about my fears of having children with him because I am afraid of being a divorced mother. A lot of that fear has to do with the fact that my mom was a single mother because my dad walked out on us. His response was that... those would be his kids and even if we divorced he would never leave them. Thats great and all but I do not want my children to ever have to experience divorce because I know it is hell. I wanted to hear him say that he would never leave me....Why do I put myself through this? Perhaps I try so hard to hang into this marriage b/c I fear divorce. I fear failure. 
He then told me that if it comes down to choosing between his family and me, he will refuse to make a choice. It seems to me that both him and his sister view this as a war of families or something. I DO NOT want to put him into a situation where he would have to choose, I do not want him to be apart from his family. I just want balance and I want our privacy. I did not think asking for his sister to move out was asking him to choose between us....It was me asking for his sister to grow up...he did not view it that way. I do not want him involving his family in our decisions. He even had the gall to say he was upset with me because I talked about our problem with his brother's wife and considered her advice. He said "I do not want anyone else in our marriage but us." Yes I agree, but what I did (though probably misguidedly) is go to a member of his family to get their perspective in hopes that he would see that it is not just me and my ideals backing my reasoning of wanting his sister to move out. He is the one that always involves his family in our affairs. He always drags along his sister and her daughter whenever we go places. Even last night when we were hanging paintings in the living room, he kept asking me...is it straight, does this look good, etc. I gave my reply, then he promptly turns to his sister and asks for her opinion. Maybe I am being irrational here but that made me feel invalidated. Like what I said wasn't good enough so he had to hear it from one of "his" people. 
Hes even said "its like you have been hiding who you are this whole time and now are letting it out" and "why can't you change back". I am still that nice and sweet girl that he fell in love with, but like you said AFEH, we do not have bottomless pits of compassion and sympathy. I have given to his sister all I can give...she needs to meet us in the middle and move on. Was I so crazy to think that...ok you have someone helping you while youre in need...so you now try you hardest to get yourself on your feet so that you will no longer need them. What I have now realized is that him and I have VERY different cultures. For him it is the norm for multiple adult family members to live together. Well, not for me. The worst part of this for me is that he never even consulted me in any of this. He never even told me his sister got kicked out of his brothers house and that she would be moving in with us....I only found out on the morning she started moving her stuff in! UGH

You could cut the tension in this house with a knife. I thought after the last time my SIL and I spoke that we had made an agreement. She said "It is what it is" and that it is my prerogative to have her move out. However, my sister in-law and I are not speaking at the moment. This is not because of me. I am not rude to her, I just keep my distance and give her space. When I do talk to her, she seems stand-offish. Like the other night I asked her if I could get the TV remote (she had it at the dining room table but was not watching TV - was on her laptop) and she said "Its yours, take it" Why was that necessary? She couldn't just say yes or hand it to me? I think she is having a very hard time growing up. She is not at all the person I thought she was. I don't really know her at all. I recently found out that when she was studying abroad in India, her brothers were sending her money to pay her bills over there. I thought that she went there and studied and worked...Well she was there 6 years and still does not have a college degree. WTF? I do not think that she has ever provided for herself. It seems her life has been living off her family...no wonder she doesn't like her sister in-laws. They are taking away her gravy train brothers! 

The only thing I can think to do at this point is to not say anything hurtful or act rudely to his sister. He told me that the reason he blew up and said what he said about my sister is because he wanted me to feel his pain...that when I speak badly of his sister it hurts him. I do understand that, but other than that one incident I have not called his sister any names or was mean about her in front of him or her. All the things I've said about her to her face and to him are the truth. I said she has used us and that she is irresponsible. 

I still fear that my husband will go behind my back and tell her she can stay. I have no trust in him. I have to really hold my tongue when it comes to this issue b/c I want to grill him about it to ask him if he has talked to his sister about this issue since we all last spoke. But I know that will be a wrong move. He will just get mad at me for "bringing confrontation". 

There has to be a way I can broach this subject without seeming harsh, right?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No.

He is too enmeshed in his family. 

The only way he will ever STOP being enmeshed is if YOU tell him you either take them out of our lives or I am divorcing you.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

You seem to have all this sorted out in your head, but when it comes time to talking to your husband about it, you are not being particularly clear.

Try to stay away from the broad sweeping statements such as 'I'm not sure I want to have children with you anymore', and just bring it back to the issue at hand.

1. You want his sister to move out
2. You want a definite time frame for this, 3mths, whatever

If you start bringing in other problems, it'll cloud the air and make it impossible to resolve this one thing, as it'll be linked to a dozen other huge issues.

When or if they ask for reasons, give them honestly. 4 years has been long enough, you think it's time she moved out. Keep it simple. Stick to the facts, try keep the emotional stuff out of it, I think that there may be too much emotion linked to this simple request now.

Edited to add: and if he brings up your sister staying with you, and how she should move out too, tell him you will be definitely fair in supporting him in asking your sister to move out if she ends up staying with you for 4 years. Make sure you point out that you are being extremely fair in doing that. Also make sure that you keep in mind if they push you, to keep your cool, remember you are a person with needs too, and it's about time both him and his sister considered that. They are behaving as if their needs are all that matter. You'll just have to stand your ground.


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

I do agree with you, there is too much emotion involved in my situation. It truly is a simple request and I will treat it as such in the future. I need not sugar-coat things for them...just be blunt. That is very hard for me to do, and I am not helping anyone - much less myself- if I cave in at all. The tension I feel when I come into my home is so bad....I need to find a way to push through it and get things done. 

I like what breeze said about making it a point to state that it would be fair to kick my sister out after four years also, if he brings it up. lol funny but true. 

I have been trying to use this situation, my anger, to look at myself and really think about past mistakes. I am just too nice and have a hard time standing up for myself. I fear being left so badly that I unconsciously hold onto dysfunctional relationships just so I will not have to experience loss. Why do I always try to please people at my own expense? It doesn't make them love me any more, it only seems to make them come to disrespect me and use me. As you said, people put the blame on whom so easily takes it...put the responsibility on the one who is always responsible and plans...put the pain on the one who doesn't complain, the one who can take it I need to really learn that being nice isn't the same as being a push-over. I can stand up for myself in a nice way.

I realize that my husband loves me, but has his own demons to tame. I need to let him to work out how he feels about his family members and not interfere. In the past, I have reacted emotionally for the both of us. Thus he becomes emotion-less and clings to them, like I am the big bad wolf. I cannot keep attempting to protect people at my own expense.

I know....I need to work on communicating this verbally with everyone around me. Its so hard to do but I will try. Have any of you been in a similar situation, or another just as emotional...and what words did you use to communicate what was important to you and what you wanted?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

"I fear being left so badly that I unconsciously hold onto dysfunctional relationships just so I will not have to experience loss. Why do I always try to please people at my own expense?"

I can guess this has been something you've done since you were a child, and it's continued into adulthood, and the reasons are ones you probably know, but may not wish to ponder.

There is a theory that when two people 'fall in love' they feel they have found a person who makes them whole. A person who fills the voids left by them suppressing parts of themselves throughout their childhood in order to survive through it. We started out whole, and through conforming to our caretakers and society expectations, we become less than whole. 

With this theory in mind, when we find someone who we instinctively feel fits us, we fall in love. Problem is, we generally choose someone who will bring back all our childhood struggles, feeling that this time, unlike our caretakers did, they'll meet our needs and heal us. Generally, it doesn't happen that way, instead they continue to inflict the same sort of pain over and over again, probably without even realising it.

Continuing with this theory, when we feel like this person may leave us, we actually fear deep down for our very survival, we fear we'll die without them. We'll be thrown back out there with only half of ourselves again.

Rationally we know we can do it on our own, but the fear is there regardless. You are definitely not alone in that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read The Dance of Anger yet?


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

I have read the Dance of Anger and it was VERY insightful. In fact, I am looking for another one of that author's books called The Dance of Connection. From reading reviews it seems to give some good insight into effective communicating. 

Breeze: I have done just what you said my entire life. In every relationship...work, friendships, family, love. I am so scared of someone walking away, even though I KNOW in my head I can survive on my own....I just fear that feeling of loss so much. I need to stop letting fear get in my way....Easier said than done, I know. 

I have so many regrets. If I had been standing up for myself, if I had known my true self I would not have let this situation come about. I should have made my voice heard in an authoritative but caring way...from the beginning. Why is it that when someone hurts or feels bad I blame myself??? Even if I know that I am right? My SIL is making me feel like I am a horrible person. Today I saw an article she printed out on our printer when I was filing paperwork (its in our office upstairs and she was on the laptop downstairs). It was about how people do not mean what they say and how their true evil words will come out in the end. I know I should have spoken up in the past...I even apologized (!) to her for not being upfront with her in the past. This girl is seriously disturbed. She sees me as someone who is evil. I will not apologize to her anymore. She has never apologized to me. She has said "Yes, I probably should feel sorry for doing that" but she never says sorry. Then she has the audacity to tell me that my apologies are "half-a**ed". The irony is that a few of them probably were. Even though I may get angry at her...I still want her as a SIL and fear that loss too. *****????

Am I out of line in thinking that a grown woman, a woman 7 years older than me and 5 years older than my husband, should live on her own? have a job? make responsible decisions? Am I wrong to think that a woman should only call herself a "stay-at-home mom" if she has a husband that is taking care of the finances? How can she live this way? Does she really have nowhere else to go? I truly believe that if my husband had not told her she has six months to leave, she would not ever have moved out. She would have sat in my house hating me and feeling miserable for the rest of her life. Even after I told her twice I wanted her to move....she did not take me seriously. Only when my husband said it did she then start to get "depressed" and take it seriously. GRRRRRRRRR.....

That time that she confronted me for "making her sad", I asked her about the way that she came to live with us in the first place. I asked her why she did not come to me and ask me. She said that she never asked and my husband told her she could stay with us. (He even admitted this...thus my anger at him) I have talked with my husband about why I was angered by him doing this, and told him he must involve me in decisions that effect our home and lives.......UGH I am just going in circles in my frustration. My husband and I should have set boundaries and rules when she moved in! It is our fault and a little too late for me to expect her to respect my wishes now. She WILL be moving out in 6 months, or I will move out. I will not live in a house with someone who thinks so badly of me and who can so freely live off of us without any remorse.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My husband and I are starting a business with a woman who has spent her entire life operating by controlling other people. However possible. Her favorite way is to call people liars. It instantly makes you defensive, and wanting to rectify things. Most people don't realize they're being manipulated. But I know too much psychology to fall for it. So she and I don't get along. Works on my husband, though. Every time she calls him a liar, he backs up and tries to 'prove' to her that he's not, which puts her back in control. I just say 'Nancy, you're so full of it' and stop talking to her. Then she goes to my husband and lies about ME. Which makes him call ME and tell me to apologize to her for calling HER a liar and screaming at the top of my lungs at her (her words). And I'm like "How many times in 30 years have you EVER heard me yell at anyone?" (none, except at him)

But it's how she works - getting everyone defensive, so she's on top. Do some reading on psychology - tons of books out there - and learn to recognize what she's doing. It will give you more power over what she tries to do.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

LOL turnera, you're starting a business with her? You must know that's going to end badly...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, I know. But I also know she always quits what she starts; and says 'you take over, I'm done.' And the location is right on the freeway very close to two high schools and a college and a mall. So we're betting on ending up with the business when she gives up in a few months. If we can just get through the construction part...


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

wow turnera....I never thought of it like that before. I knew that she likes people to pity and feel sorry for her, but I never put two and two together that maybe she is fostering that type of reaction in people. I guess my best recourse is to NOT feel sorry for her or pity her. And my new line will have to be "Only I know my true intent. I am a grown woman who takes care of herself and her family. I do not owe you anything." 

PS @turnera, best of wishes in the business! Thank you for sharing your experience. It is great that you are able to ignore her craziness, and soon your husband will too.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

breeze said:


> "I fear being left so badly that I unconsciously hold onto dysfunctional relationships just so I will not have to experience loss. Why do I always try to please people at my own expense?"
> 
> I can guess this has been something you've done since you were a child, and it's continued into adulthood, and the reasons are ones you probably know, but may not wish to ponder.
> 
> ...


There's a lot of wisdom in the sentiments reflected in your words Breeze. In fact I don't think I've ever heard this expressed so clearly and succinctly.

I fell deeply in love with my wife when I was 18 for the reasons you expressed. It wasn’t until I’d reached the age of 61 that I realised I could indeed live and enjoy my life without her. I have so many happy and joyful memories of our time together. But at the end of the day each of us was holding back the growth of the other.

Bob


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

This situation is giving me headaches! I know with all the arguing and everything that has gone on....I understand why the tension would be high. But ugh I just wish that things could be okay. My sister-in-law does not speak to me at all now. I apologized to her for any meanness after she confronted me last time, but I have a feeling she thought that my apology was half-a***d. She likes to pretend I am not in the room. She only acknowledges me if I speak to her first. 

I find it really odd that she only got mad at me after my husband told her to move out, and not after I told her which was days before. I feel like she does not care about me at all. I am just someone to use. I do care for her and my niece's well-being but there has to be a point where enough is enough, right?? The thing I hate most about this is that it is hurting my husband. He flat out told me that it hurts him for me to be angry at his sister. I should not have let all my emotions get in the way of what I needed to say to her. I should have just told her that I was uncomfortable with things that she did, and that I wanted her to move out. I stupidly kept on waiting for my husband to step in and tell her it was time to get on her feet. When he didn't, I kept waiting for her to get herself together. She never did. I hope that out of all of this, it will be a motivation for her....I just don't know. Really, she will probably just see me as the mean witch SIL who kicked her out. 

I also hate that my husband is the vengeful type. I am afraid that since I asked his sister to leave, he will view it as me never wanting to help out his family and will then not want to help out my family when they need it. Upon reflection, I suspect that the reason both my husband and SIL hid things from me, regarding him helping out her and other family members - among other things, is because since I was a sister-in-law, they assumed I was like the two other SIL and figured if I don't know its going on...I can't stop it or get mad. Well, the secrecy is what hurt the most. That is what fueled my anger. I still find myself getting upset when kept in the dark. I am a giving person, and I feel like I never got the chance to give on my own terms. I feel lied to and used. 

I feel like I had really high expectations of my husband. I've done a lot of thinking and reading, and the best advice I have received is to speak for yourself, because you feel it is important to say something, not because you want a reaction or validation from someone else. Basically I have to bring my expectations down to zero. To only put my authentic voice out there, which I can see would make me feel better since I would be voicing my opinion in a manner that is in line with my values (kindness, understanding). But it also makes me so sad and disappointed to think that to be happy, you cannot have any expectations of others. 

Do any of you agree with this train of thought? Is there a way to hold someone to a high standard and not have high expectations of them?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

There is a quote: "Serenity comes when you trade expectations for acceptance."

On the surface, this seems like great advice, but then, when I really thought about it, I couldn't get passed the fact that for me to have no expectations of someone generally means I care very little for them. I have recently come to some peace with myself over the actions of a family member. I was angry, then I decided to stop expecting better from them, and now I only have occasional frustration. Problem is, I like them less, because in deciding to accept them as they were, I had to admit that I didn't much like who they were.

With love comes expectations it seems. You fall in love with someone because they are kind/intelligent/affectionate etc etc, and so you come to believe this is who they are, and you expect it from them pretty much all the time. Not particularly realistic, but essentially, it's extremely hard to let go of this. I think our partners would be struggling with the same problems.


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

breeze said:


> Problem is, I like them less, because in deciding to accept them as they were, I had to admit that I didn't much like who they were.


You said it exactly! That is why I find it so sad to not have any expectations of my husband or any other family member. As I have dropped my expectations to nothing, as I did with my SIL and also with an annoying BIL, I realized that I did not like them very much. Sure they both have some good qualities, no one is completely a lost cause, but as a whole they are not very likeable to me. I certainly do not go out of my way to be mean to them because I don't like them very much, but I don't go out of my way to hang out with them either. I'm cordial. Its hard to do with the SIL since she lives with us...but I try. I have to respect that it will upset my husband if I am not nice to them. 

I am afraid to have no expectations of my husband, because I may end up seeing that I don't like him very much. Honestly there are some days where I regret walking down the aisle. He has so many annoying qualities....ugh. I do love him though and after all the stupid stuff we've been through together I still have that soft spot for him in my heart. I think I need to find a way to still have expectations of him but to maybe lower them?... make them more reachable for him?...or just have less expectations?

How do you accept someone for who they are, and still try to push them to be better?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You start being honest with them so they know what you are feeling. Then you start communicating.


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

I have a very difficult time communicating with my husband because if he does not like what I am saying, he will shut me out. He will totally stop talking or listening to me. He will become a stone wall and totally shut me out, and if I keep talking after that he will leave the room. If I go to talk to him, he will leave the house in his car. It should be stated that I very rarely yell and always talk to him in my normal voice, albeit sometimes I start to tear up when he stops listening. He does not behave like he is open to talking about things with me. I'm sure I do bear the blame in this because I do not always find the best times to talk to him, but it is very difficult for me to find a good time. He is always on his computer, a total nerd - works in IT, and actually told me once when I said I wanted to spend more time together by having dinners just for us at home, romantic nights, etc "We spend every day together. We watch TV together and sleep in the same bed." Problem is, when we are watching TV he doesn't want me to talk because if I do he can't hear the TV, and he's on his laptop at the same time. Then when we are in bed, he is on his laptop too until the minute he goes to sleep. Then he doesn't want to talk because he is tired. We only have sex once a month, if that. 

What can I do?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You can tell him you won't stay married to him unless something changes. Find a marriage counselor that specializes in communication and set an appointment. Tell him you are BOTH going, or he can start packing his clothes and go live with his tv and computer somewhere else, because YOU are going to look for a man who will be a partner, not a roommate.


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Things are strange in my marriage. My husband hates confrontation and anytime we disagree or fight, he tells me he wants a divorce. (I thought in the past that he did this to make me back off, to give up and agree with him) but I'm not so sure now. I remember one time we were arguing, and he told me he wanted a divorce and then later after the fight I told him I cannot stay in a marriage where I am being hurt and not heard. He responded by saying "fine I don't need you, I'll just go back home" (he was referring to his home country). 

I know that if I tell him I won't stay married if things don't change, then he will tell me to leave. I would like to go to a marriage counselor, but am afraid to ask him to go because I'm afraid he will say no. He doesn't like to go places with me. When I plan an outing, he will back out at the last second. Say he is tired. He will not go with me when I go to visit my family, who live a 2hr drive away. 

How do I bring up the things I'm unhappy about where he will listen? How do I bring up counseling?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Honestly, this has to be about your boundary. Clearly, he will not change if you remain with him. Unless you tell him you will NOT remain with him. I realize that makes you scared, but be honest - can you live like this for the next 30-40 years just so he won't leave you?

Plus, you are ASSUMING he will leave you rather than face these things. Dangerous thinking, as it is controlling you. Give him some credit and tell him you can't stay as things are, and see what happens. Even if he bolts out of the house and runs home, you still have a 50/50 chance, at least, that he will think on it and realize he's throwing a lot away, and come back and do as you asked.

And if you do get him to counseling, you will be helping him. So do it for him, if not for yourself.


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Turnera, you are correct in me assuming things about him just because of past instances. I have had trouble seeing people clearly for who they are...love and family have a strange way of blurring one's vision. I will try my best to always look at things objectively and not get emotional...but oh is that difficult to do sometimes!  

My marriage is defiantly a work in progress. There is a lot I have learned during this ordeal with my sister in-law. A lot I have learned about him and how he views life. He has started talking to me a bit more. I almost feel like he is glad that I "manned up" and stated that I wanted his sister to move out. 

Last night, there was a heated argument between SIL and I. This is what happened:
My SIL and husband were upstairs in their respective rooms. My sister, the niece and I were downstairs. I had just finished cooking dinner and sat down to eat (the others had already eaten) when I saw that my niece had a new can of play-dough and was sticking it in pieces on my coffee table. I told her to pick it up and put it back into the can, she did. I then told her to give the can to me, she refused and started screaming. I took the can and put it away in the toy closet. Niece is still screaming and now crying. I tell her to go upstairs to her room. She goes. To me this should have been the end of it. But no. Then SIL comes charging down the stairs and asks why did you take the play-dough? I tell her why. She asks where it is. I tell her. She says, I heard you yelling at her. You could have just asked her and she would have stopped. I just stare at her, because I did not yell at the niece until I told her to go to her room because she was throwing a tantrum. I say, SIL you were not down here watching her, you left her alone in the living room, so I corrected her actions. She says "Seriously????? I can't leave my kid to play?" She then starts laughing at me and rolling her eyes and goes upstairs. Then she comes back down stairs and starts saying the same thing again. I then yell at her, I do not want to hear you right now. Either go to your room or leave my house. She then says, I have never disrespected you! To which I respond "really?" I then repeat my previous words to her. She then hears my husband come out of his room upstairs and goes to him and starts yelling at him in their native language. I could not understand what was said, other than her saying "Do you think everyone likes that I'm fighting with my brother?" Then they go back to their separate rooms. My husband tells me later that he told her to move her stuff out.

My points are:
- If you leave the child downstairs for me to watch, don't come b*ch me out for getting on to her for doing something wrong. I've asked her and she's told me in the past that she is comfortable with us disciplining her daughter. I did not do anything to hurt the child, never would. For me, this was a simple altercation that SIL blew way out of proportion. And I think she did because she harbors so much animosity toward me that she is not very clear-headed.

- SIL has been fighting with me, not my husband. H has been very distant in this situation and has stayed out of it for the most part. His only involvement was when he re-stated to her that she had six months to move. So why is she throwing that in his face? I'm the one she's been arguing with, not him, yet she does not say "Do you think everyone likes that I'm arguing with my sister in-law?"

She is vying for his pity, that is what she has been living on.
Opinions?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, she's expecting him to cave. It's her only hope.

Other than growing up, of course.

Good for you on standing up for yourself!


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Thank you for your words of support Turnera! 

Monday was when the argument with my SIL happened, and my husband told her to move out. Today is Saturday and she is still not out. When I came downstairs this morning (after 10am), she was sitting at the counter and browsing the internet like nothing was going on. I asked her what her plans were, and she replies "UGH! Lets not talk!" I just looked at her and said "OK?" Then went on with my business, because I had somewhere to be. 
This week, I had not even interacted with her because, well I was still mad about her behavior and figured that I would give her time to pack her stuff. I don't know that she has packed anything. She brought boxes to her room but I don't see much progress. In the evenings when I get home from work, I just hear her in her room talking on the phone (our house phone) in her native language. No doubt whining to her friends. 
My husband and I had a conversation Wednesday about her moving, and he said "I assume she is getting her stuff moved on the weekend." and he said "We have dealt with her problems long enough. 3 other brothers have houses she could stay at" I agree with that sentiment, but of these 3 brothers - one has already kicked her out of their house once, the other SIL is afraid of his wife, and the last one is single but he will not put up with her BS and she knows it. If she is not getting an apartment, then she will have to move in with a friend. I know her living situation is not my problem, I just want her to stop procrastinating and get on with it. I don't want my husband's family to talk him into letting her stay because she is whining to everyone. If that happened in my presence, I would say "No, you let her stay with you if your so concerned about where she stays at" but I know my in-laws and more than likely it would be done behind my back. The problem with this family is that they assume too much. They never communicate with each other, they never talk about anything important in their lives...its all small talk. They are too chicken to really talk about things that matter. 

How much longer should I give her before I say enough is enough and tell her "You have been told to move out, have your things out by _____date" ??????


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Regardless of the justification for making her leave, it is difficult to move with a small child on short notice.

You could make it easier on her by getting her brother, your husband, to help her get her stuff out.

If all her stuff is in one room, half a day to box it up by two adults.

After that? Put in storage or take to new place.

If she has no money to move? Might be worth it to pay for her move.

Yeah, swallow the bile and do it. Short term lancing of the wound is better than a festering sore.


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

These are good suggestions michzz, they would work if my SIL were a mature adult. I packed up the things she had in the kitchen for her and she have me the evil eye roll. 

Also, I feel the need to point out that she is not moving on short notice. I asked her to move in June, she didn't. I asked her two more times after that and she didn't pack a thing. Then my husband finally got the balls to do something in August, and told her she had six months to move out. Before this week (in November) she had not packed a single thing. She could have had all her stuff packed and ready in anticipation for moving, but she hasn't. She is the type of person who does everything at the last minute. Is late to EVERYTHING. Then expects you to wait on her to finish getting ready before you go. 

I spoke to my husband earlier today and he said he is "going to let her do what she is going to do" I said "huh?" in a confused tone. He replies "I expect her to move out." I said "I hate to say this, but you are going to have to set a date with her." He said "why". I said "because she will bide her time until we do, she has been told 5+ times to move out and hasn't" He said "okay, I will tell her she has till January 10th"

He assumes too much when dealing with his family. He never asks or talks about things with them. He expects them to do this or that but doesn't actually talk to them.

How can I deal until January 10th? Can I even trust him to tell her she has till January 10th?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

He won't play heavy.

So you have to do it with him present.

Personally, I'd not wait until January 10th.

What's so special about waiting? The holidays?

How about finding a boardinghouse for her and offer to pay first and last month's rent for it?

I guess where I'm getting at is that you being the adult here can either solve it by removing impediments or you can be annoyed through January.

Practically speaking, she is without resources yet seems entitled and not appreciative of what you have been doing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Come on. Do you seriously believe you have to just sit back and LET him be the good guy and make you the bad guy, while you suffer for 2 more months?

Kick her out.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

turnera said:


> Come on. Do you seriously believe you have to just sit back and LET him be the good guy and make you the bad guy, while you suffer for 2 more months?
> 
> Kick her out.


You said that better than I.

You will be the bad guy no matter what, so if you kick her out earlier, at least she is OUT.


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

YESSSSSSSSSSS!!! SHE IS OUT! OUT I TELL YOU!!!! 

SIL is in the process of moving the last of her stuff out of my house as I type this!!!! She got an apartment and has our neighbor and my husband helping her move (neighbor has a truck and low-boy trailer - yes she has that much stuff) She came home and then started packing up the last of her things, a lot of the kitchen stuff was hers (even though she claimed broke, she always bought new dishes, decor, etc - all ugly). I think she thought taking it would make me mad, but no! Now I have room to buy my own things and make my house look the way I want it to! 

Hoorah! Adios crazy woman! esh man now I've got to think about Thanksgiving! LOL How am I gonna deal with her nutty a** there? Maybe I just won't show up! What do you guys think?

I do want to thank you all for your great advice and support! It has been a VERY trying 4+ years & I'm sure the trouble isn't over yet, but at least I can come home every day without a sick feeling in my stomach when I see her car in the driveway. She will make me pay for kicking her out but oh well I don't care!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She can't make you pay unless you LET it happen. Ignore anything anyone says about it. They don't determine you.

Good job!


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Thank you Turnera, that is good advice. I need to just stop thinking about it and no longer let it rule my life the way it has been.. My husband is being a total jerk today, he can be so small sometimes. I hope he doesn't hold it against me that I made his sister move out. He is such an idiot sometimes. Sometimes he acts just as immature as her. We got into a fight today when I got home from work, and the first thing I thought was why do I put up with this? Why did I put up with four years of his family's crap, for him to treat me like nothing. He is more concerned about what they think of him (not really about there well being) than he is about me. Why else could this have gone on for so long?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

quirky_girl said:


> the first thing I thought was why do I put up with this? Why did I put up with four years of his family's crap, for him to treat me like nothing. He is more concerned about what they think of him (not really about there well being) than he is about me. Why else could this have gone on for so long?


 He needs to hear this from you. ASK him why they come first.


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## Needhelp911 (Nov 14, 2010)

quirky_girl said:


> Thank you Turnera, that is good advice. I need to just stop thinking about it and no longer let it rule my life the way it has been.. My husband is being a total jerk today, he can be so small sometimes. I hope he doesn't hold it against me that I made his sister move out. He is such an idiot sometimes. Sometimes he acts just as immature as her. We got into a fight today when I got home from work, and the first thing I thought was why do I put up with this? Why did I put up with four years of his family's crap, for him to treat me like nothing. He is more concerned about what they think of him (not really about there well being) than he is about me. Why else could this have gone on for so long?


Hi I have been reading your post. I noticed in the beginning of your post you mentioned that the problem that you two were having was actually because of culture differences. I did read somewhere that your SIL went to India to go to school and work. So I figured your husband and his family are from India.
I wanted to let you know, that in India family is very very important. In fact, they believe that married couples are responsible for taking care of the old, the unmarried and the disabled that are in the family. This includes aunts, uncles, cousins, nieces, sisters, brothers, mom and dad. I found it very interesting that from day one you and your husband have always lived with one of his family members.

This type of support for other family members creates a togetherness. And it is expected that if you are married and well off, then you will help the other family members that are disabled, elderly or not married when they are in need. I think the best way to avoid confrontation with your husband was to address the issue. You could tell him that you were raised totally different. And maybe there could have been some way to combine your cultures. Helping the sister get off of her feet because in America it is possible for her to be independent. If he can understand where you are coming from culturally, then I think he would have been able to explain this to his sister. That she could live there and that you would help her get on her feet. Its a way at looking at life. She would have to see it as we do. In his familys eyes, making her move out was a mean and disgraceful thing to do.I think what you should do is get a book on Family life and Family Values in India so that yyou can understand how he thinks. I have had the same clash of cultures with my husband. He is hispanic and they view things very differently. They think differently, and I didn't want to be ignorant to his culture so I learned about it more. I also tried to teach him and explain to him how us Americans think.

I don't think you and your husband have a problem big enough for divorce. I think you are both ignorant to each others cultures. All you need to do is learn about each others values and find a way to compromise. Understanding each other better will definitely bring you two closer together.


By the way is your husband the oldest of all his siblings?


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## Needhelp911 (Nov 14, 2010)

Please try to remember that in India like other Eastern societies, it is a collectivist society that emphasizes family INTEGRITY, family LOYALTY and family UNITY. Believe me this man loves you. He cares about you. But family togetherness and providing for family when they are in need is very very important. Extended family and family kinship ties are of utmost importance. They endorse traditional family role preferences. Your SIL thinks differently and so does your husband. Her kids father is not there for her, so they believe that the family should support her. Even though she no longer lives with you, it is still expected for her brother to help her financially if he can. this is the way they were raised and their family values. They are the total opposite of individualism and believe in harmony and concern for others. Cooperation with family members is very very important.

I think you two really need to learn about each others values. I would hate to see you divorce him when the only problem with both of you is ignorance! He needs to learn that his sister can be very independent. And that she is capable of making her own decisions. And that its not impossible for her to make it on her own. He needs to know that making her moving out was not a bad thing. And not disgraceful because she can provide for herself. He needs to know that Women can provide for themselves these days. Im sure he knows this but his family must be making him feel bad because it truly is a culture thing.... Please let me know what you think.



Also, he probably doesnt understand where you are coming from. In his eyes hes probably thinking, how can she be so mean? My sister can't provide for herself, shes incapable because shes a women and she has a child. Hes probably not understanding you either. Hes not looking at his sister living with you as her using you. He doesn't see it that way at all. He believes he is helping her and will continue because thats what the tradition is in Indian families. He might look at the act of kicking his sister out as selfish. And I am not saying you are at all, I understand completely how you feel and what you have expressed on the forum. I just wanted to let you know that his way of thinking is completely opposite of yours and that is why you both are clashing right now. What he has done is considered terrible in his culture. If he can understand that in your culture its not considered terrible then maybe he won't be so upset. Like I said... Ignorance is the problem in your relationship. On both sides.


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## Needhelp911 (Nov 14, 2010)

quirky_girl said:


> I am just too nice and have a hard time standing up for myself. Why do I always try to please people at my own expense?


I don't think your husband sees you as being too nice. I think he sees you as selfless. This trait is something people in India value. Your husband loves you, but I do think that the SIL was a brat!! I think right now your husband is struggling with the fact the he kicked his sister out and this is something that is so disgraceful in his culture. His family is probably telling him hes turning into a western. You never know. Also, he truly does love you and agrees with you because he made her leave, but at the same time he has done something terrible in his culture so hes really trying to cope. When he says I want to go back to my home (his country) , his family is probably telling him, if you married someone from India, this wouldn't happen, she would understand... His family is ignorant and doesn't want to change. And you can't change them, but he sounds like hes stuck in the middle. He loves you but feels awful about what hes done. I think you could definitely help him understand why you wanted this and why you did this.


Also 



quirky_girl said:


> if she has a husband that is taking care of the finances? How can she live this way?


You are not wrong at all for thinking this way. But in her culture you are wrong. This is the problem. Nobody understand why you feel the way you do, and you don't understand why they feel the way they do. She thinks you are evil because caring for others is very important in her culture. She is not understanding that in this country that SHE lives in, independence is valued. She is being very ignorant. But they can learn and understand if you can start with your husband. They won't change, but they will understand that you are not evil at all. But that your values are totally different. 





quirky_girl said:


> Only when my husband said it did she then start to get "depressed" and take it seriously.


This is because in her culture only the MALES voice is authoritative. You are not blood related. And he is. And he is a male. What he says goes.. Not what you say. Do not take anything she says personally.Its not that she doesn't care what you think. But in her culture your opinion is not necessary because he is the male. Only try to understand that this is the way people from India think.





quirky_girl said:


> I also hate that my husband is the vengeful type. I am afraid that since I asked his sister to leave, he will view it as me never wanting to help out his family and will then not want to help out my family when they need it. Upon reflection, I suspect that the reason both *my husband and SIL hid things from me, regarding him helping out her and other family members - among other things, is because since I was a sister-in-law, they assumed I was like the two other SIL and figured if I don't know its going on...I can't stop it or get mad.* Well, the secrecy is what hurt the most. That is what fueled my anger. I still find myself getting upset when kept in the dark. I am a giving person, and I feel like I never got the chance to give on my own terms. I feel lied to and used.


Are the two other SIL from India? Maybe he felt the need to lie to you because he thought you wouldn't understand, because you are American. And he probably felt this way, because of the other two SIL. If they are American, then that explains it. I could be wrong...but thats what it sounds like. Also, tell him this. He would probably love to know this. Let him know, if you had told me someone in your family needed something I would have supported your decision and agreed. Please let him know this. 

But the reason I ask his age, is if hes is the oldest male sibling, then this can explain why he feels so bad. Usually the oldest is responsible for taking care of the elderly, and the family members that are in need. If he is not the oldest, then you can tell him, look, you are not responsible for taking care of her... your older brother is.. Hes the oldest male.. You could also say that her lack of respect for *him* was another reason you wanted her to leave. Respecting the *males* in the family is very important. This argument can work in your favor because you will be leveling with him and his culture.(you will be talking in his language) And he can use this argument with his family to get them to understand.. But SIL really is a brat and after reading this thread IM relieved that she is gone... Thank goodness because I wouldnt want to come home to her either..


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Hi Needshelp911

You make some very good points about the culture differences. However, my husband and his family are from Kenya, a country in Africa. And my husband is the youngest child of 7. SIL is the third to youngest and the only daughter. The SIL and the brother second to youngest act alike, all the other brothers are responsible and care for themselves. The two brothers that are married, are married to Americans, one white woman and one black woman. 

When I look at things that their family does, I do see that they view family togetherness higher than individuality. It is a BIG difference from American culture and I do realize this. I have tried my best to learn a lot about the Kenyan culture and it is quite difficult. Everything I find online and doing research talks about what my husband's family call the "old ways". There is not much written about modern Kenyans. When I do ask my husband or his siblings about their culture, they say "It is the same as it is here." Well obviously not because I can see the differences plainly!  There have been times when, after I inquired about Kenya, I got responses that had the vibe like "who is this dumb white lady asking about Kenya". My husband has only recently began to be open with me about his culture because I think only now does he see that it is difficult for me to understand certain things about his family. 
My SIL once told me "you should have know marrying a Kenyan you'd have to adjust". Yes I knew this....and yet she moves to the US and does not adjust. This is why the inlaws think their culture is the same as the American culture, they behave here like they would there so they assume this means everyone here behaves like Kenyans. 

In the past my husband, more than the other brothers, has taken it upon himself to take on the burdens of family members. Even when his mom came to visit a couple years ago she had him running around like her errand boy, and this frustrated him b/c she'd call him too much while he was at work. The other siblings talk down to my husband, and he does not have a problem with this. I am the eldest child in my family and I would never talk down to my sister. I guide her and give advice when she asks for it, but I don't tell her what to do, how to live her life. I don't expect her to do things for me though I do for her as the "wiser"  sibling. I become offended by them when they don't behave in my eyes as a "good" elder sibling would. Now the key words here are IN MY EYES! lol!!! It comes down to I have to accept them for who they are, and they also have to accept me for who I am and not tread on me. 

Since many of the things you described about Indian families hit home with my Kenyan family, I would like to pose a question to you:

Thanksgiving is coming up. It had been pre-planned to be held at one of the older BIL's house. SIL and younger BIL (the irresponsible ones that outwardly hate me) will be there. Should we go? If we don't go, what would they most likely think? If we do go, will they be able to hold their tongue for the holiday?...
Also, and this is the most likely situation, if my husband goes and I stay home, what message would this send?

Esh this is difficult!!!!


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## Needhelp911 (Nov 14, 2010)

quirky_girl said:


> Hi Needshelp911
> 
> You make some very good points about the culture differences. However, my husband and his family are from Kenya, a country in Africa. And my husband is the youngest child of 7. SIL is the third to youngest and the only daughter. The SIL and the brother second to youngest act alike, all the other brothers are responsible and care for themselves. The two brothers that are married, are married to Americans, one white woman and one black woman.
> 
> ...



Oh my goodness! I'm so sorry I assumed they were from India! I was trying to find a clue somewhere in your post, and I saw SIL took a trip to India, so I assumed... I also assumed that you didn't do your research on your husbands culture. I am sooo sorry for coming off harsh! It sounds like your husbands family are not open at all to the American culture and they are discouraging him as well. They sound ignorant. Are they Muslim or Christian?

I can't speak for them. I, like you, tried to do research on the family structure in Kenya and their wasn't as much information as I found on India.(like you said). If you were both invited, I think you should both go. Have you been to this type of function in the past?

IMHO Although, the unappreciative SIL & BIL will be there, I think that you should go. If you don't go, this will give them the opportunity to talk badly about you to your husband. I don't know if they will, but from your post I see that SIL is a spoiled, ungrateful, immature brat! SIL & BIL might say that you think you are better then them and thats the reason you didn't go. Or they might tell your husband, she doesn't understand us and so on. He might end up resenting you for it.

I think you should go even though it will be very uncomfortable.  And when you go stand right by your husband, you can also bring a gift for the host, (I read on the internet that bringing a gift to a special occasion or family function is appropriate in Kenya) and if you see SIL & BIL greet them nicely. And that is all. If they are rude or disrespectful then brush them off. Don't let them get to you, because if they are as immature as I think they are, then that is what they want and that is what they will expect from you. But if you carry on happily and give your husband all of your attention, then your husband will see how ungrateful and problematic his brother and sister are. He will see that you are making great effort to be a part of his family. And he will feel proud to be by your side. If he goes alone, they might gain up on him, but having you there will be a force to be reckon with!

Of course the reason for learning about each others culture isn't to change each other. If you can both understand each others culture, and celebrate holidays that are important to Kenyans and holidays that are important to Americans, it can help the both of you understand why one behaves they do.

And you can even tell him, hey I did some research on family culture in Kenya and I wanted to bring a gift. I would like your family to accept me and I want them to because I love you. Or if he's not the type that likes to talk about his culture then you could print out something on family culture in Kenya. Then you can highlight certain parts of the paper you print, and write little notes in the margin, you can put comments like this is sweet, wow so interesting, I love this, and leave it out for him to see.Maybe not so obvious but at least if he sees you are making an effort or hears it from you he will appreciate it. And anytime SIL tries to say, she's not like I thought or she's not like us, or she's different, he will defend you and tell her off. Also, Maybe this will get him to open up and try to learn more about American Culture. 

I know its easier said then done. After the way SIL & BIL behave it makes you want to avoid them or yell at them. But if you try this one last time to make amends or even to just show your husband, look Im your wife, and Ill never let anyone come between us, then he will feel proud and will stand up for you. 

His family could be very defensive.. I read in your post that one BIL married a white woman. Do you think they may be overly defensive because you are white? Im not trying to make it a race thing. But im just wondering if thats the reason why BIL & SIL are so ungrateful. I also read somewhere in your post that either SIL or your husband said I thought you were different? Do you know what he meant by that?
I did read a few articles on white people in Kenya. Some of them said that few Kenyans are resentful towards white people, because when Kenya was colonized by the british, Kenyans were treated ok. When Kenyans would travel to Zimbabwe or South Africa, that is when they would experience racism. It also said that most Kenyans do not have reasons to dislike white people, the only reason some Kenyans would dislike white people over there is because they would think "they stole our land". The same attitude the Native Americans over here have towards white people. Other then that they don't care about race. But I also read an interesting article about Kenyan women, they see white people as being rich. Because over in Kenya most white people have money. The article also said that when going to Kenya you learn to pick up on Kenyans that act like they like you when they don't For instance they will call someone with a lot of money Mzungu.Usually, and mostly, they use this word to describe a white person. In Kenya they will greet a white person by that name. But Kenyans that do not like white people can also use this name in a negative way. So it really depends on the tone.

I found this interesting. I don't know if you could relate to it. But I was thinking maybe SIL and BIL think you are RICH. And thats the reason why she can't believe you kicked her out and why she's so upset that you and her brother won't take care of her... 

Anyway, if you want more information you can try googling white people in Kenya or you can try Family Structure in Kenya

If you end up going to the Thanksgiving Dinner here are a few things I found on the family culture in Kenya. (you probably know most of this info already)


If invited to dinner at a Kenyan’s home, bring pastries, flowers, or sweets for the hostess. In rural areas, gifts of sugar or tea are quite common.

Dining Etiquette

• Kenyans table manners are relatively formal.
• Dining patterns vary tremendously according to ethnicity, location and socio-economic position of the host.
• The best course of action is to behave formally. When is doubt, watch what others are doing and follow their lead.
• Except for formal functions, there is generally not a seating plan. However, there may be a special place for the most honoured guest.
• Guests are expected to wash their hands before and after the meal. In some homes, a washing basin will be brought to the table. If so, hold your hands over the basin while water is poured over them.
• The honoured guest is usually served first, followed by the men, children, and women.
• Servants often bring the courses to individual guests who are expected to take what they want.
• Do not begin eating until the eldest male has been served and started eating.
• It is a good idea to take a small amount the first time the platters are brought so that you may take second helpings when urged.
• Beverages are not generally served with meals since Kenyans think it is impolite to eat and drink at the same time. They are generally served at the completion of the meal.
• It is considered polite to finish everything on your plate, although it is not mandatory.


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## Needhelp911 (Nov 14, 2010)

I also found this:

What are the results of kin assistance? Kayongo-Male and Onyango summarize these well:

The ethic sharing resources within the extended family unit reduces the amount of accumulation of wealth and partially limits the formation of rigid class groupings. The wealthier family members are still expected to assist the poorer members by paying for school fees, providing accommodation for relatives who are at school or seeking work, or by offering small loans for various emergencies.

Aging and Death

In the previous section we noted the ways in which the elderly may be helped by their kin. Mariaa Cattel, writing about the Samia (part Luyia), describes the way in which sons and daughters care for and feed parents too old to work. (1990, p 382). Most often it is the _last-born son_ who cares for the elderly or widowed mother, sometimes the father.

Interesting!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'd go to the dinner. Take the high road.


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Thank you Turnera and Needhelp911. I do believe taking the high road and acting cordial can only make me look good, and them look bad if they crack... 
btw, my husband's family were raised Catholic, however the children do not practice it now - most are not religious at all , esp my husband, but one brother and his wife (the white one) are Morman. Of course the other siblings think this is weird but don't really comment on it much. I could care less what religion those two or anyone practice I'm Christian (Protestant) but not one of those in your face types. 
I was just told by my husband tonight that the BIL who was supposed to host Thanksgiving dinner cannot host it bc there is still construction going on at his house. So I ask whose going to cook, he says you! Yet he does not know how many people or what time they will be over, basically he is his usual blubbering idiot...I swear I'm beginning to think this is not totally a difference of culture, its a matter of this family having the lazy gene. Ugh whatever. I think I should just get this crap catered and eat me some good food without having to rush and worry about if my cooking is good enough. blah I have learned my lesson - never plan anything with these people bc they never come through. I will leave any family get together planning to the other white sister in law since she likes to do it, and sit back and be uninvolved! Its not like I really want to spend "quality" time with these people anyways....

did that sound harsh?


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## Needhelp911 (Nov 14, 2010)

quirky_girl said:


> Thank you Turnera and Needhelp911. I do believe taking the high road and acting cordial can only make me look good, and them look bad if they crack...
> btw, my husband's family were raised Catholic, however the children do not practice it now - most are not religious at all , esp my husband, but one brother and his wife (the white one) are Morman. Of course the other siblings think this is weird but don't really comment on it much. I could care less what religion those two or anyone practice I'm Christian (Protestant) but not one of those in your face types.
> I was just told by my husband tonight that the BIL who was supposed to host Thanksgiving dinner cannot host it bc there is still construction going on at his house. So I ask whose going to cook, he says you! Yet he does not know how many people or what time they will be over, basically he is his usual blubbering idiot...I swear I'm beginning to think this is not totally a difference of culture, its a matter of this family having the lazy gene. Ugh whatever. I think I should just get this crap catered and eat me some good food without having to rush and worry about if my cooking is good enough. blah I have learned my lesson - never plan anything with these people bc they never come through. I will leave any family get together planning to the other white sister in law since she likes to do it, and sit back and be uninvolved! Its not like I really want to spend "quality" time with these people anyways....
> 
> did that sound harsh?


not at all! Your husband sounds just like mine! There are so many times where my husband will tell his family things without asking or confirming with me first. There have been times where his family just pops up at our house, or he'll invite his nieces and nephews over for sleep overs. Then I would find out later that he knew about them coming over for about a week and he didn't mention anything to me at all!! Talk about being unprepared and uncomfortable in my own home!

But I agree with you maybe its not a culture difference at all and the entire family is lazy and expect you to pick up after them. The sister doesn't want to take care of herself, the brother didn't take care of himself as well in the beginning and now they expect you to cook for people that don't appreciate anything you do for them. I wouldn't want to cook for them either. I know this sounds mean but I would probably sabotage the dinner so they wouldn't want me to cook for them ever again! LOL!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

@Needhelp911..I am totally relating to you! Why is it that our husbands don't think it important to tell us stuff like this in advance? I just don't understand...Do they think we will say no, so they just plan it anyways so we can't refuse if we don't know? I'm confused! 

Well, Thanksgiving ended up being okay. I went grocery shopping Wednesday after work and got a ham and planned food for the dinner (I researched getting it catered, but it was too expensive to get it at the last minute.) Well, its good I didn't get it catered!! Wednesday night my husband tells me that, hey (other SIL) is cooking for Thanksgiving so why don't we go over there so you don't have to cook? I say, okay when did you find out about this? because I already bought a ham and stuff? He says, well I just got the call today. ESH! None of his relatives can lead, they are all followers. Idiot followers at that. They are so disorganized they walk around like chickens with their heads cut off half the time. If it weren't for the wives, nothing would ever get planned or ever actually done. And you can't say its a male thing, because the mother and sister are the same way. 

So, we end up going to BIL & his wife's dinner and it was good. What was even better was that his wife's family was there, so there were people to talk to that weren't SIL (the one we had to kick out). It would have been hella awkward if it were just me and those bores. Then the BIL that said he couldn't host because of construction at his house didn't show up, who knows where he went. Maybe he was waiting for someone to tell him where Thanksgiving dinner was at! LOL Well the SIL in question pretty much ignored me the whole time. That was fine, its the way she is. It was good to see my niece (her daughter). My niece had lots of fun. And it was also good to see my other SIL (BIL's wife, the one that cooked and hosted dinner), I don't think she knows anything about us kicking SIL out. The family pretty much ignores this brother and his wife because they do not take any BS. I was a bit surprised they went over there, but with put with the alternative (ie. ME) they went with the other option LOL! I just wish they'd get it together when it comes to stuff like this...oh well. Like I said before, I will not put anything on me, I will not do the thinking and planning for them!


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Sorry for sounding super pissed How can I not let this type of stuff get to me? It always does though I know I shouldn't take it personally....

PS: I hope you all had a very Happy Thanksgiving!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

qg, no offense, but you do seem to have an AWFUL lot of disdain for his family. Do you think they don't recognize that? It's hard to be around someone who thinks you are trailer trash.

I'm not saying you don't have a right to be upset with them, but can you honestly say you really are all that much 'better' than them?


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> qg, no offense, but you do seem to have an AWFUL lot of disdain for his family. Do you think they don't recognize that? It's hard to be around someone who thinks you are trailer trash.
> 
> I'm not saying you don't have a right to be upset with them, but can you honestly say you really are all that much 'better' than them?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

I have a hard time being around them bc they think I'm "trash" or however you want to describe it. One bil & one sil will come around me just to give me the evil eye & talk to my husband about me in Swahili. I've picked up on some stuff & know it's not good. The status quo is that they can point out my flaws, tell me what I need to do, blame me for making my husband "fat" or whatever yet if I do the same to them they cry & say I'm being a b*ch. Why is it ok for me to get picked apart, & not be allowed to defend myself? Of course I have plenty of distain for them now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Needhelp911 (Nov 14, 2010)

quirky_girl said:


> I have a hard time being around them bc they think I'm "trash" or however you want to describe it. One bil & one sil will come around me just to give me the evil eye & talk to my husband about me in Swahili. I've picked up on some stuff & know it's not good. The status quo is that they can point out my flaws, tell me what I need to do, blame me for making my husband "fat" or whatever yet if I do the same to them they cry & say I'm being a b*ch. Why is it ok for me to get picked apart, & not be allowed to defend myself? Of course I have plenty of distain for them now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I agree. They seem very unappreciative. I would feel the same way. I wouldn't want to be around them at all and I would avoid them as much as possible... Thats what Im doing with my husbands family right now. They would talk about me in their language right in front of me. And nothing good was said either. But I was around them for so long that I picked up their language and every time they said something about me I knew exactly what was said. Instead of saying my name they would refer me to "her" in their language so I would never pick it up. But eventually I did. And I was so pissed off that people would act so fake towards me. The thing with my husbands family is they would talk to much crap right in front of me in their language and then smile in my face. I hated it. Now I don't go to their house at all. And they don't invite me either. I think its better this way. We have a son together but I don't bring my son to his family's house because I don't want him to come back home behaving like them. I don't think you are acting like you are better than them at all. They have been rude to you and unappreciative and you don't deserve to be treated that way at all. At first I thought it was a culture thing, but the more you talk about it, its clear that the BIL and SIL are just hateful and want you and your husband to take care of them. And they are bitter so they will do anything to ruin your relationship with him. Ughh.... I don't know if your husband stands up to them, but I know my husband has no balls and would never stand up to his family for me... so that makes the situation even worst, because then I end up annoyed with my own husband... Its a marriage between him and I not everyone he associates himself with and then me.... 

I think sometimes family members need to mind their own business and leave couples alone. For some reason its always a family member trying to cause havoc on someones marriage. Maybe its because they are miserable and want you to be miserable too... And maybe she didnt want to leave your house because like they say, misery loves company.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Or...you can take the more upfront approach of actually calling them out each time they dis you. "Hubby [in front of all of them], your sister just said that I'm trash; are you going to let them talk about me like that?"

And if he says yes, you have your answer: he chooses his family over you and you pack your stuff and leave.


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

I believe that I am at NeedHelp911's point. I just don't think I can interact with his family any longer. The most I can stomach is small talk, and that is all I will do. I will go to gatherings I am invited to for my husband, but I will keep it light and not put myself in potentially embarrassing situations.

I would seriously love the opportunity to call my SIL and BIL out on their BS to my husband. SIL is very sneaky in her disses and confrontations with me. She will only confront me if no one else is around. She will act cool in front of everyone else, then when we are alone she will either stonewall me or gripe at me. She plays mind games and plays the victim. It is next to impossible to prove her wrongdoing. One of he other brother's wives said it best when she said "you may need a recording device for your own sanity" Seriously, my words will get twisted and all of her words will disappear if you hear the story from her.


Her big slip up was her yelling at me about the play-dough that time. I think she thought my husband would not be able to hear from our room. Before that, my husband acted as if I were being mean and picking on her, and that she had no responsibility in the situation. It really bothered me that he would think so low of me, that I would just make things up or deliberately make confrontation. Any confrontation I initiated with her was because of me viewing wrongdoing on her part, wrongdoing that affected me. Basically, I called her out on her BS and no one liked it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Carry a recorder around.


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## quirky_girl (Aug 5, 2010)

lol I'm glad I have room to breathe now. Now that SIL has moved out, all I can do is be done with it. There is nothing I can do to make things better that I haven't already done. I will always be annoyed by the situation when I look back on it, will probably be annoyed my my in-laws in the future. I've gotta say a big thanks to everyone on this forum who lets me vent and has given me the best advice!!!


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