# I think it's time



## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

I've been over in the "considering divorce" forum but have decided to make the leap to this one. I think that it's time for me to let go. Been married 15 yrs, I think our marriage was good for a few years, then kids arrived and I ignored a lot of things, took on more and more, became the housewife i never wanted to be in the first place, all because of my own issues and co-dependency, inability to honor myself. 

When we met I liked how he was a stable guy, but had dreams of doing cool things, travelling, not living a status quo life. This was very important to me. 

He was very happy with this and I was ok in the SAHM role for awhile, we (I) had decided that I wanted my kids to be raised by me and not another person. Then got back to my career part time and started to really have good success in my work and began to really find out who I am, gain confidence in my abilities, etc. The result of this, was my wanting to step back from all of the household work and parenting work, which my husband did not participate in at all, since he was working 12 hour days. I found this was not possible because there was too much to do and I became resentful. Again not communicating with him, and he not with me. Now in retrospect I realize that he thought this was a great relationship because this is what he grew up with. Disconnected parents who don't really like each other but stay together regardless, and I grew up with a deadbeat dad so was willing to just take on everything, do everything (including house repairs, mowing lawns, painting, electrical work, on top of all of the regular household stuff) . 

THen he lost his job and I thought "GREAT!" In my mind the reason we had not done any of these interesting things we'd talked about years before was because he was working hard to bring in the bacon and I was working hard to be a good wife. So I thought this was finally his opportunity to go back to school, find his passion etc. He had a friend who had started a business and I thought maybe he'd want to join forces with this guy. He had a year severance from work. I was happy for him. But that is not what happened. Instead he spent his time watching podcasts, and going to the apple store. I told myself maybe he was burnt out and needed a break... ok. I tried to give him time. I tried to be supportive in helping him get connected with his friend with the biz, but he was not interested, and took no initiative. 

We talked at one point about opening a company together but I realized that this would be very bad because then I'd have to be his leader at home and at work, and I couldn't do it. After 18 months of him not really looking for work, or being the 'non status quo' guy he'd talked about ... I came to the realization that this was all talk. That maybe he wanted to be this guy but he was paralyzed with inaction. I convinced him to go to my leadership/career coach, but he never made an appt. So I called her and asked her to make an appt with him. Stupid I know. But I was grasping at straws. After a few months she told me "he's stuck in the merging lane and can't get onto the highway". Good analogy. Our entire marriage has been like this, I make appointments for him for things he won't take initiative on, he goes, then he talks about how great this all is. But he doesn't take the initiative himself. 

My frustration was rising. I had taken on another part time job in order to pay the bills, a job I didn't really like but the pay was good. I was burning the candle at both ends and he, though was not working and not looking for work had taken over maybe 20% of the household and childcare duties. So I was working now full time, and taking care of the house etc... while he met friends for coffee, watched podcasts etc. I was spending hours trying to find him interesting jobs to apply for since I am more internet savvy than him. I know... typical co-dependent behavior. Something I am learning to stop doing through my own therapy. 

I lost it finally as we came upon 2 full years of unemployment and inaction. Told him we wanted different things in life. It had become clear to me that he was not willing and not interested in anything other than what he had, and I was looking for possibilities. He was looking for stability. He asked me to go for MC with him. I went once to see his counsellor in MC. We agreed to give it a year. That was last April. Then my counsellor suggested we try counselling with her because if we'd agreed to stay together a year, we needed to try to make the relationship work. So we've been doing that, but honestly our MC session have become sessions for him which I attend. Since he is getting nowhere with his therapist. 

We have fixed a lot with regards to parenting... but our relationship is non-existent. Though I think he thinks it's all fine. I have realized I don't like spending time with him, there's nothing to say, our conversations go nowhere. Though we've been doing therapy for almost a year, when I ask him how he feels I get the same answer each time. "I'm ok" ... end of conversation. 

I think I've passed the hurdle of being scared to make the move. I feel like there is no other choice at this point. It's been too many years of feeling crappy, it's too much work because if I don't make an effort to the fix the relationship, he doesn't. That's always been how it's been and now I've backed off and am taking care of myself, getting back to exercising, feeling strong in my body and healthy, pursuing more interests and taking care of myself the way I need to be taken care of. 

He has stopped his counselling since December, has not gone. Today he's seeing my counsellor, the one we've been doing MC with. Because she told us we were wasting our time in MC... because he keeps talking about how he needs to take initiative but doesn't, and every time we go he tells her the same thing with where he is at. He now has a job, and the MC has helped us to communicate better so he is now doing A LOT more than he was around the house. But it's too little too late for me. My heart is gone. 

I need to move on and I think he needs to as well. I think he will be happier with someone who is happy with the "stability" he can provide. I know I will be happier with more freedom, and I know our children will be happier to see us happy.

The question I have is for those with children... how did the talk go with your kids, how was the first few months of separation?


----------



## Pictureless (May 21, 2013)

Sounds like you have your mind made up already.

The economy is tough right now and it's difficult for anyone to do a career change, no matter how old they are.



> When we met I liked how he was a stable guy, but had dreams of doing cool things, travelling, not living a status quo life. *This was very important to me.*


When he was bringing home the bacon you were not happy. You're not happy now. Did you marry him for the right reasons?

Why aren't you happy?


----------



## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Keenwa said:


> The question I have is for those with children... how did the talk go with your kids, how was the first few months of separation?



It sucked.


----------



## IronWine29 (Dec 31, 2013)

It sounds like you put a lot of effort into making the marriage work. You can't fix other people. They have to want to fix themselves.

Have you told him yet?

How old are your kids?

I'm sure you have seen this elsewhere, but make sure they know that you both love them, and that will never change, and that the divorce is not their fault. Repeat that early & often.

Boys will take it differently. They may be angry and act out. Anger = sorrow and fear. 

If your H is agreeable, take them to counseling.

Give them as much structure and regular order as you can, even if he doesn't.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

When a person looses a good job it can shatter there self image. You were trying to help him find work, get him motiviated, yet from how you wrote your posting how you tried to motivate or help just reinforced his own failure image. Its not a matter of being paralyzed with inaction but the fear of failure again which creates the inaction. 

Long term unemployment can really play with a persons self image etc. They get into the funk of it and it just becomes a way of life. My stbx lost a very good job several years ago, she took a great deal of pride in that job. I tried many things you did, don’t push it, she will get motivated, try and offer going back to school, starting business.

What I thought I was doing was trying to put her in a position to succeed yet she took it as me mounting pressure on her, controlling her, my career was doing well, she started to resent that. 

He now has a job, he is putting more effort into home life and now you say its too little too late. You want freedom to be happy, yet you have no clue if you will find any happiness. You make assumptions that he will be more happy with someone else. Have you asked him? Every couple starts off not wanting to live the status quo yet real life always gets in the way. Don’t take it the wrong way but quit making assumption about how he will be happier, the kids will be happier and you will be happier. How?

I do agree the MC isn’t working but it has helped with some items yet the two of you seem to have different agendas. Have you tried to make an effort in the marriage, yes. Has it been in many different directions and not worked, yes. In order to chase some of the dreams you have you need stability. Between job situations, marriage problems and the usual headaches of life on top of that, it’s the one thing you haven’t had, stability.


----------



## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

IronWine29 said:


> It sounds like you put a lot of effort into making the marriage work. You can't fix other people. They have to want to fix themselves.
> 
> Have you told him yet?


Yup told him last May… but we haven't talked recently about it. Not sure what he thinks these days. 



> How old are your kids?


8 and 12



> I'm sure you have seen this elsewhere, but make sure they know that you both love them, and that will never change, and that the divorce is not their fault. Repeat that early & often.
> 
> Boys will take it differently. They may be angry and act out. Anger = sorrow and fear.
> 
> ...


Thanks.


----------



## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

honcho said:


> When a person looses a good job it can shatter there self image. You were trying to help him find work, get him motiviated, yet from how you wrote your posting how you tried to motivate or help just reinforced his own failure image. Its not a matter of being paralyzed with inaction but the fear of failure again which creates the inaction.
> 
> Long term unemployment can really play with a persons self image etc. They get into the funk of it and it just becomes a way of life. My stbx lost a very good job several years ago, she took a great deal of pride in that job. I tried many things you did, don’t push it, she will get motivated, try and offer going back to school, starting business.
> 
> What I thought I was doing was trying to put her in a position to succeed yet she took it as me mounting pressure on her, controlling her, my career was doing well, she started to resent that.


yeah.. I can see that now. Especially since in our relationship I am the one with initiative and he follows, trying to please… 
I don't think he was aware of any of this, but maybe he was… likely deep down he was. 



> He now has a job, he is putting more effort into home life and now you say its too little too late. You want freedom to be happy, yet you have no clue if you will find any happiness. You make assumptions that he will be more happy with someone else. Have you asked him?


Yup. He's convinced he wants to stay married to me. I'm quite sure I will find happiness. I am happy in my career, my friends, my life, everything except my marriage. 



> Every couple starts off not wanting to live the status quo yet real life always gets in the way. Don’t take it the wrong way but quit making assumption about how he will be happier, the kids will be happier and you will be happier. How?


well it's been years. We've been living like room mates, there is nothing else, no relationship beyond co-parenting. We are friends, but there's no sex, no attraction no interest what so ever. He has never in 16 years planned a "date" for us, or anything for that matter, even though I've said this is important to me. He does not have friends, or hobbies, just his family. I know lots of women might say "FANTASTIC"… I guess it's hard to explain in a forum like this and you only get tidbits of information so it's hard to get an understanding. 




> I do agree the MC isn’t working but it has helped with some items yet the two of you seem to have different agendas. Have you tried to make an effort in the marriage, yes. Has it been in many different directions and not worked, yes. In order to chase some of the dreams you have you need stability. Between job situations, marriage problems and the usual headaches of life on top of that, it’s the one thing you haven’t had, stability.



Well we've had too much stability in my opinion. Or maybe I mean lethargy, boredom and lack of movement. I take responsibility for my role in this, completely. I have not been clear in communicating that I don't want to live in the same place, house, for the next 40 years. That is not how I want to live. I totally get that we can get bogged down with "life". But I'm ready for change.


----------



## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

Pictureless said:


> When he was bringing home the bacon you were not happy. You're not happy now. Did you marry him for the right reasons?
> 
> Why aren't you happy?


Do we ever marry for the "right reasons"? My therapist says you choose a partner based on wounding qualities of your parents and healing qualities… I chose him because he was stable and kind. I was happy for awhile.. him bringing in the bacon, me being molly housekeeper, diaper wiper. I grew up in a pretty crazy environment and I loved the stability, financial and otherwise that we had/have. It was a huge weight off of my back. 

I am sad because we don't have a relationship as a couple, we don't talk about anything other than kids, if I ask him how he feels, he doesn't know. There is no romance, no nothing. I don't need to get the comments from people saying that I must be delusional to think that love and marriage is endless bliss. Of course… I know. I've been living in a scheisshouse for nearly 5 years. I'm not a moron. I've been married for 15 years… I've made it work, it has almost killed me. I don't know too many happy couples I tell you. 

As for us, we have no common interests, we don't laugh together, or cry together. We do nothing together except eat dinners and a movie maybe twice/year. There is no man/woman relationship. Only co-parenting and friendship. If all I want is friendship and help around the house, I'd be better to have a friend live with me or have a housekeeper. 

I was accepting it for years and now I've decided I don't want to accept it. I want to be with someone who can give me a compliment once in a while, "hey honey, you look beautiful today"… or anything… other than "did you pack the kids' lunches"?

I know the people who are staunchly into marriage being a contract and a commitment will flame me, but I believe life is too short to live it in a state of lethargy and general crappiness. I don't believe that life is about sucking up your feelings in order to get through the day, or keep your family together. I think unhappy parents make unhappy kids and I'm just wondering how the hell to get through this.


----------



## IronWine29 (Dec 31, 2013)

Keenwa said:


> I know the people who are staunchly into marriage being a contract and a commitment will flame me, but I believe life is too short to live it in a state of lethargy and general crappiness. I don't believe that life is about sucking up your feelings in order to get through the day, or keep your family together. I think unhappy parents make unhappy kids and I'm just wondering how the hell to get through this.


I think its best to try to make the marriage work. But that takes a solid commitment from both partners. If your H is not willing or able to put in the work, then divorcing may be for the best. If you told him in May and it hasn't lit a fire under his rear, then it sounds like he's already checked out and is waiting for you to take the initiative. Sound familiar?

If you can split amicably, it will be better for the children. Have you thought about custody arrangements?

Take care of yourself. Take care of the kids. You will find that you may be a better parent because you are more aware of their needs.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

It's a bit more insidious than that.

Most people have no clue what would actually make them happy.

So, they blame their partner.

It's a formula for a second - or third - bigger disaster.


----------



## IronWine29 (Dec 31, 2013)

You're right, Conrad. In my case, I blamed my ex for my unhappiness, and she blamed me for hers. But I made the best of what I considered a bad situation and grew as a person. When I started to be happier, she blamed me for that, too.

But I was also willing -- too willing, I think you would say -- to try to fix the marriage. She was not. At a certain point, you have to say enough, and move on. 

I still haven't figured out the happiness thing. But I'm not blaming her anymore.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

IronWine29 said:


> You're right, Conrad. In my case, I blamed my ex for my unhappiness, and she blamed me for hers. But I made the best of what I considered a bad situation and grew as a person. When I started to be happier, she blamed me for that, too.
> 
> But I was also willing -- too willing, I think you would say -- to try to fix the marriage. She was not. At a certain point, you have to say enough, and move on.
> 
> I still haven't figured out the happiness thing. But I'm not blaming her anymore.


Happiness is a daily decision.

It's under your complete control.


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

How old are your kids Keenwa?


----------



## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Happiness is a daily decision.
> 
> It's under your complete control.


Staying in the marriage, as it exists, will not make you happy. 

Neither will divorcing and gaining freedom to find another. 

My XW thought this way and she is the unhappiest person I know. 

It has nothing to do with me or anyone else but herself.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Its not stability you have had, unemployment and marital issues have done nothing but create and atmostphere of tension and stress whether you believe it or not. You said the magic words in your post BOREDOM. It happens in each and every single marriage and is probably the root of the majority of divorces.

By ending the marriage will you be happy, short term probably. You will do things the world is a new place, you want excitement. Long term is quite another matter. If you want a divorce, nothing we say will change your mind and maybe it is the best solution. Only two people in the world really have to make that decision and that’s you and your husband. 

You complain that you have to run the show, he is too laid back. Maybe he is just tired of the constant conflict or second guessing and now just agrees to everything because its easier. Before you make decisions based on what you want, try to really understand the other side. Look at it from his perspective completely it may give you some insight because I don’t think you have.

I think long term your chasing a “happiness” you will never find. Short term yes. You have convinced yourself he is the problem to your unhappiness so he must go. Maybe it is true, as you wrote, we only get pieces of a life on these forums. But happiness is completely a state of mind, there is no way to prove or disprove we tell ourselves we are or aren’t. 

The old saying careful what you wish for…you might get it


----------



## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

Give the MC a good long try, and IC. 
Do you tell him how miserable you are with the lack of intimacy?
A trial separation could be considered, you may just find you miss each other if you take break for a month or two.


----------



## Pictureless (May 21, 2013)

Keenwa said:


> Do we ever marry for the "right reasons"?


I can't speak for others, but I promised the rest of my life to my wife for the task of one another, for the sake of one another, until death do us apart.

I did it knowing we were two imperfect people, committing to the sanctifying work of expressing self-sacrificial love to each other, so that we both could become the best possible people together; while knowing full well that neither of us could ever reach this goal without each other.


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I hate posting advice on threads like this, because what I've tried hasn't worked for me. BUT, it was worth trying, and it'll buy you time even if it doesn't work.

There are a few pretty immutable truths about repairing dead marriages, and one is that it takes one month of good behavior to recover for every three (or was it four?) months of bad behavior. So, start by asking yourself how long you've been unhappy. Divide that by 3 or 4 and that's how long you'll have to be doing things right before you can really evaluate if it's worked.

In the meanwhile, work on yourself as though you're 100% responsible for the problems in your marriage. Stop thinking about what your H is doing wrong and what he isn't doing that he should be doing. He should be doing the same thing.

It's HARD. But, either way, you and the kids will benefit. Maybe you two will grow into different people who are ready to start a new marriage together. Maybe you'll realize that the marriage will never work, but at least you'll be better, stronger people, ready to put your kids first. And you'll surely be less likely to end up in some god-awful rebound relationship with a guy who turns out to be a child molester.

I've been miserable for about 5 years and working my butt off for 1. So far no improvement, and my H doesn't give a [email protected] about the marriage yet, but I'm gonna give it another year. Who knows! 

To lay all my cards on the table, I'm a firm believer that for the most part, kids benefit from a 2-parent home. If there are no kids, I'm all for divorce without all the work first.


----------



## IronWine29 (Dec 31, 2013)

From my POV, the problem here is that only one person sees a problem, and she has made a long-term, good faith effort to bring it to her partner's attention.

Allow me to stipulate:
(1) I am still angry.
(2) Divorce did not bring me happiness.
(3) What I tried failed miserably.
(4) My advice is free, and you get what you pay for. You likely will be better off listening to someone else.

The relationship that you describe with your H sounds sterile and loveless, not stable. He sounds like he is in denial.

Children benefit from a 2 parent home, but they can sense when there is something amiss. Your decision will affect them and their ability to form stable, long term relationships. That cuts both ways.

If you have an otherwise friendly relationship, there is no rush. Take your time. A trial separation would be a good first step.

One thing to prepare yourself for is his reaction. He may finally "get it."

Another is your own reaction. You are very likely, almost certainly, going to have regrets.

Beyond that, being a single parent is the hardest thing I have ever done. My situation was very different from yours, however, and I do not now have a friendly relationship with my ex, nor can I expect her to act in the best interests of my children.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

IronWine29 said:


> From my POV, the problem here is that only one person sees a problem, and she has made a long-term, good faith effort to bring it to her partner's attention.
> 
> Allow me to stipulate:
> (1) I am still angry.
> ...


I would only ask what she does when he doesn't listen?


----------



## IronWine29 (Dec 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I would only ask what she does when he doesn't listen?


Why would it matter to him what she does at this point?

He has seen the light on parenting issues.

He doesn't appear to listen to _anyone_ about the marriage. 

He's gone Bartleby on her.


----------



## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

okay you sound like my ex...I was taking my PhD. and got messed around and was not able to finish...my self esteem took a big hit and I was expecting her to be there for me. Is that not what being a mate is? Your post sounds self-centered and all about you and I wish you the best with ALL the wonderful men out there...the grass is always greener..NOT! My ex left me for a dude she thought was great and left me for all those wonderful guys out there and guess what? She is begging for me back and suffers deep regret over the family she threw under the bus...Society does not value a selfish b***h. Good luck....when your husband gets his crap together, he will remember how you treated him. It will be too late then. Good luck!


----------



## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

oh yea, the lack of intimacy...lets talk about that....I said to my ex on numerous occasions.."Do you honesty believe I want to get hot and horny with you, after you making me feel like a loser throughout the day?" I lost desire in her NOT because of her but because the way she constantly made me feel. She would brag about other men all the time and always run me down. Well do not expect me again to desire you - I was almost grateful when she left - she took with her all the negative attitudes and self-entitlement with her. She thought the world was waiting for her...now she is alone. Good riddance.


----------



## IronWine29 (Dec 31, 2013)

Maybe you should look for differences between your story and hers instead. You might learn something.


----------



## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

bigtone128 said:


> okay you sound like my ex...I was taking my PhD. and got messed around and was not able to finish...my self esteem took a big hit and I was expecting her to be there for me. Is that not what being a mate is? Your post sounds self-centered and all about you and I wish you the best with ALL the wonderful men out there...the grass is always greener..NOT! My ex left me for a dude she thought was great and left me for all those wonderful guys out there and guess what? She is begging for me back and suffers deep regret over the family she threw under the bus...Society does not value a selfish b***h. Good luck....when your husband gets his crap together, he will remember how you treated him. It will be too late then. Good luck!


sorry big tone, you are completely off the mark. I take total responsibility for my part in what has become a loveless, disconnected, marriage. We are both conflict avoidant and while I tried in my way to tell him I needed him to take initiative for things, help me out, plan dates for us etc, he never did. I know that I wasn't communicating in a way that he "heard me". The losing the job part was the cherry on the top of a lot of other problems. I worked a crappy job I hated for 2 years to support the family while he sat and watched podcasts, and I did it, I thought at the time, (for the first year anyhow)… to support him and his process. 

I am not blaming him for the marriage falling apart, but I do need him to participate in fixing it. I cannot do it alone.


----------



## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Okay - but did you have an affair....if so, all bets are off. Any moral authority you had is gone at that point!


----------



## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

Conrad said:


> It's a bit more insidious than that.
> 
> Most people have no clue what would actually make them happy.
> 
> ...


I have no illusions about life being a bowl of cherries. I do not blame, him but at some point when you are trying to push the ball uphill and the person who is supposed to be your partner is just standing watching you, you get tired and feel like giving up. 

I believe a marriage needs to be a partnership first. Being roommates who can work out logistics over kids etc is not a marriage in my opinion. At present, everything we are doing we can do living in a separated situation, because between us, there is nothing. I am not some kind of disillusioned nitwit who is looking for "excitement" or more "fun". I am simply looking to live with a partner who is my partner, who actually is attracted to me as a woman, and to whom I am attracted to as a man. I'm not saying it has to be absolutely fantastic all the time, I am not disillusioned as to what marriage is. (I HAVE been married 15 years after all). I want to have something more than  a business relationship with my partner because if that's all it is… schlepping kids around town and being cordial to each other… I can do that living alone. 

That's all I'm saying. I have been in counselling since April… we have done MC for the last 6 months or so… and while I am learning a lot about myself and finding my happiness… on the marriage front not much is changing, mostly because he acknowledges that he is stuck on the sidelines, knows he needs to take initiative but just "can't"… Our MC has recommended we stop MC until he is able to be more connected to himself and his emotions.


----------



## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

bigtone128 said:


> Okay - but did you have an affair....if so, all bets are off. Any moral authority you had is gone at that point!


Nope. no affair. Just reached my breaking point with a disconnected husband who doesn't seem to think we need to have a man/woman relationship to be married, and I disagree. I had been sucking it up for years, and then decided I was done with sucking it up.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

honcho said:


> By ending the marriage will you be happy, short term probably. You will do things the world is a new place, you want excitement. Long term is quite another matter.


I completely disagree with this, and completely support your decision to leave a platonic, soul-killing marriage. Being married without intimacy, without a connection, without playfulness and attraction, without sex, is equal to "no marriage" in my opinion.

I left my soul-killing, hopeless marriage more than 3 years ago, and it was the *best decision I ever made.* For everyone.

I found short-term happiness, and I have definitely found long-term happiness.

No one here can tell you what to do, but you already know in your heart what to do.


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Conrad said:


> It's a bit more insidious than that.
> 
> Most people have no clue what would actually make them happy.
> 
> ...


Only you will know what makes you happy, and I think you are already doing a great deal of that. Friends, a job you like, your children. You sound like you know where you want to go. It's a big decision, but I think once you get away from the negative in your life you will indeed be happier.

Consider all the people who focus on what they don't like. Their job, the government, their in-laws, etc., etc. The more they focus on it, the less happy they get. No one ever found happiness focusing on the things they don't like!


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

bigtone128 said:


> Okay - but did you have an affair....if so, all bets are off. Any moral authority you had is gone at that point!


I have found that many on TAM assume that if a spouse is unhappy, then there must be an affair. Of course, it happens a lot, but I have found that many people haven't cheated. They just want something that their spouse can't give. But the more we beg for it, ask for it, go to MC for it, the more power we give to the other person. 

See! He (or she) must still love me because he (or she) keeps trying to make it work. I think these spouses who don't do anything, who answer "I don't know" to any question that goes deeper than what's for dinner are secretly using their lack of action as a means of power. How can you say that you've tried to make it work when you've never been able to get off the starting block with your spouse? But therein is the trick. You won't ever get past Go, and you need to accept that it's ok that you never did. Well, the two of you never did.

I do NOT buy into this crap about "just change yourself and he'll see how much better things are and he will change, too." Really? That's like saying, "If I always do the dishes, maybe he'll get the hint and do them half the time." Uh, no. He'll look at you and say to himself, "hey! what a great thing she always does the dishes and I never have to! glad for that and hope it never changes!"

That rambled a bit, but I hope you can find encouragement from that. Stay strong and good luck!


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Ceegee said:


> Staying in the marriage, as it exists, will not make you happy.
> 
> Neither will divorcing and gaining freedom to find another.
> 
> ...


Which is exactly *why* leaving and divorcing her h will make keenwa happy. She states that she is happy in her career, happy with her friends, happy with her kids, happy with her life, happy with everything except her marriage! Keenwa can be happy alone or in a new relationship if/when she decides to have one!

Leaving my STBX was the BEST move I've made in decades! It is very heartening to wake up happy and full of interest and anticipation for the day/week ahead!! So different from being buried-alive in a dead relationship. 

Best wishes in 2014 to you, keenwa, and to your kids. You're right, an unhappy intact family fosters unhappy kids!


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

bigtone128 said:


> okay you sound like my ex...I was taking my PhD. and got messed around and was not able to finish...my self esteem took a big hit and I was expecting her to be there for me. Is that not what being a mate is? Your post sounds self-centered and all about you and I wish you the best with ALL the wonderful men out there...the grass is always greener..NOT! My ex left me for a dude she thought was great and left me for all those wonderful guys out there and guess what? She is begging for me back and suffers deep regret over the family she threw under the bus...Society does not value a selfish b***h. Good luck....when your husband gets his crap together, he will remember how you treated him. It will be too late then. Good luck!


She's not your ex, so stop beating her up.


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

happy as a clam said:


> I completely disagree with this, and completely support your decision to leave a platonic, soul-killing marriage. Being married without intimacy, without a connection, without playfulness and attraction, without sex, is equal to "no marriage" in my opinion.
> 
> I left my soul-killing, hopeless marriage more than 3 years ago, and it was the *best decision I ever made.* For everyone.
> 
> ...


I find it interesting that so few women on TAM regret their divorce. There's lots of men on here ready to call women all kinds of mean names for wanting a divorce, but the women seem ready to support each other. 

Good for you, HaaC. Glad to hear you found happiness.


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

ebp123 said:


> I find it interesting that so few women on TAM regret their divorce.


I see this IRL too. The women I know work their butts off, put up with drinking, drug use, men who hemorrhage money, cheat, and men who verbally, physically, and emotionally abuse them. When they finally get the strength to leave, they look years younger, smile more (well, the ones who didn't get all the teeth busted out of their mouths smile more), and feel so much happier. I don't know any women IRL who regret getting divorced.


----------



## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

Thanks all for your comments. It is nice to hear from others who have been through it and are not ridden with hate, resentment and anger for their partners. But I guess the comments from those who are are helpful as well as it reminds me that I am not there. I have no hate for him or animosity. We are two nice people who walked down a path together, and now one of us wants to say good bye but the other does not so much. One of the biggest reasons I wanted kids with him was because I didn't want my kids to have a deadbeat dad, and they don't. He is a great guy, kind and loving to his kids. But doesn't mean we need to stay together just because of this. 




ebp123 said:


> I do NOT buy into this crap about "just change yourself and he'll see how much better things are and he will change, too." Really? That's like saying, "If I always do the dishes, maybe he'll get the hint and do them half the time." Uh, no. He'll look at you and say to himself, "hey! what a great thing she always does the dishes and I never have to! glad for that and hope it never changes!"
> 
> That rambled a bit, but I hope you can find encouragement from that. Stay strong and good luck!


I did this for years, you know that stupid quote "be the change you want to see".. instead what it became was exactly that, him telling me he thought he was supporting me because he thought I liked doing all that crap... uh.... nope. "I thought you liked planning all the dates,, the vacations, the trips, the kids activities," the list is endless.... I was co-dependent because I took it all on and became the "manager of the house".... because of my own insecurities at the time. 

The only way to change a relationship is to communicate clearly what you need and want and either the person says yes or they say no. Only thing is if someone is not willing to meet you where you want to be met, whether it's in conversation, in connection, in whatever... you are left feeling empty. I like that quote "relationships are for a reason, a season or a lifetime". Not all marriages are for a lifetime and to force them into this simply because you signed a "contract", is to make yourself a smidgeon of who you really are. 

I agree it's a fine line, running away from problems teaches us nothing either, but if we have worked at the problem, and tried many angles to change something and it does not change, we get to a point where in order to grow and learn and develop we need to let go, or we can accept stagnation in ourselves, and our relationships, and simply live out our days breathing in and out with someone beside us we do not even get a charge from.


----------



## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

ebp123 said:


> I have found that many on TAM assume that if a spouse is unhappy, then there must be an affair. Of course, it happens a lot, but I have found that many people haven't cheated. They just want something that their spouse can't give. But the more we beg for it, ask for it, go to MC for it, the more power we give to the other person.
> 
> See! He (or she) must still love me because he (or she) keeps trying to make it work. I think these spouses who don't do anything, who answer "I don't know" to any question that goes deeper than what's for dinner are secretly using their lack of action as a means of power. How can you say that you've tried to make it work when you've never been able to get off the starting block with your spouse? But therein is the trick. You won't ever get past Go, and you need to accept that it's ok that you never did. Well, the two of you never did.


Yeah I fell into this trap. The potential seeing trap. Seeing potential in him, feeling like if he could just get out of his little cage he's put himself in, the one where he doesn't talk about anything. The "guy thing". But now I'm beginning to see that he doesn't want to go deeper. I made the mistake of thinking that he did, he just was too bunged up to talk about anything other than daily logistics. That was my mistake. You can't change someone. Just because I don't understand how someone could life a life without talking about how they feel about anything doesn't mean that they'd like to do this. Some people really are happy living the way they do. 


He is really content to live this kind of life and that is really OK... just not with me. I accepted it for years because I chalked it up to "this is the way guys are". But now it's not that I don't think they are, it's just that I don't see a reason for living with someone that I can only talk business with. Friends, sure... partner/marriage? naw... I'd rather live alone if all I can do with my partner is talk shop. At least when I go to bed I can sleep in my own room, in my own space, without earplugs for the snoring etc.


----------



## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

northernlights said:


> How old are your kids Keenwa?


12 and 8


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

northernlights said:


> I see this IRL too. The women I know work their butts off, put up with drinking, drug use, men who hemorrhage money, cheat, and men who verbally, physically, and emotionally abuse them. When they finally get the strength to leave, they look years younger, smile more (well, the ones who didn't get all the teeth busted out of their mouths smile more), and feel so much happier. I don't know any women IRL who regret getting divorced.


I know one. She and her H were both so nice that they couldn't find it in themselves to talk about what wasn't working. That, to me, is an exception. If they had only had the courage to talk about what wasn't working, I am confident they would still be married. Neither did and one was unfaithful. This was an old school relationship - each is in their late 60s now.


----------



## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Okay - I have not been getting updates - just perused the comments and let me say first - the grass is not always greener. 
Now before someone says "Not all situation are the same." Okay - if so, why come on a site where people have all different experiences and ask for advice and then diss it when you do not like it. Might be the reason one is in the situation they are in to begin with. 
I will say I have watched dissatisfied spouses go on and on about how unhappy there were with their spouses and then left them - start dating and figure out 2 years don the road - the unhappiness was inside of THEM NOT their spouse. NO ONE person can make me happy or unhappy - THAT, my friends, is my job to me. All I am doing is alerting this poster to the fact that she has already made decisions which hurt her spouse and if she leaves it will have permanent effects. And before someone does ANYTHING permanently - THEY SHOULD BE CAREFUL BECAUSE THERE IS NO TURNING BACK! 
Enabling someone in their unhappiness is something I do not think is healthy. Happiness lies within.....
Dollars to donuts - the next person will have as many, if not, more issues. I am not drinking the Kool-Aid you are selling.


----------



## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

bigtone128 said:


> I will say I have watched dissatisfied spouses go on and on about how unhappy there were with their spouses and then left them - start dating and figure out 2 years don the road - *the unhappiness was inside of THEM NOT their spouse. NO ONE person can make me happy or unhappy* - THAT, my friends, is my job to me. All I am doing is alerting this poster to the fact that she has already made decisions which hurt her spouse and if she leaves it will have permanent effects. And before someone does ANYTHING permanently - THEY SHOULD BE CAREFUL BECAUSE THERE IS NO TURNING BACK!


I agree completely, great post.


----------



## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Keenwa, you sound like you know what you want. What is wrong with divorce everyone?

Thread after thread after thread here someone says, "if they were so unhappy, why didn't they divorce?" 

Now Keenwa is being blamed for wanting a divorce. ??

I don't understand. It sounds like she is totally happy with her life but not with her husband. No affair......just wants out.....

Seems reasonable to me to not want to live unhappily married.


----------



## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Rugs said:


> Keenwa, you sound like you know what you want. What is wrong with divorce everyone?
> 
> Thread after thread after thread here someone says, "if they were so unhappy, why didn't they divorce?"
> 
> ...


Please read my comments above....happiness/unhappiness lies within NOT on the actions of another. I do believe in most wedding vows there is that part about "for better or worse"? 
Or did you really mean "Until I really do not like what I am seeing and feeling and would like to explore greener pastures?"

I thought about this tonight and I was hoping someone reply so I could share this experience with them...I went through something similar NOT when I was married but when I was dating. I dated a girl for 3.5 years and loved her but was "bored" in the relationship and thought "I could do better" so I went out and explored greener pastures. After dating my STBX for year and moving in with her - similar problems and issues arose in the next relationship because* I* was the same person and *I* elicited the same responses in the people *I *was with. Hard lesson. 

I lost and hurt someone who really did not deserve it - she was okay. It was me. Her only fault was loving me. I was not even married - add children and other families to the mix...cmon think about it! The wreckage that will be left behind will (as my friend says) last generations.

Think...that is all I am asking.


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I see your point bigtone, and I agree that happiness comes from within. But cultivating your own personal happiness sometimes means getting away from people who, for whatever reason, try to suck the life from you. I don't think you'd disagree, for example, that a woman who's being beaten by her husband needs to be away from him to be a happier person. Or the woman who's married to a passive-aggressive spouse, who is constantly being punished for a crime she didn't know she committed. A new relationship isn't going to make you happy (long-term), but a bad relationship can and will suck you dry if you don't change it or leave it.

I do think keenwa should exhaust her options before divorcing. But bored isn't the same as unhappy, and even though she hasn't articulated well in this post why she's unhappy, I don't think it's fair to assume that her unhappiness is really unrecognized boredom.

Keenwa, I do think you should set aside six months for personal therapy so that you're sure you understand the motivations for you behavior. It could be that you're replaying some kind of harmful behavior you learned as a child, and that there is in fact a better way to approach your situation than divorce. And if there's not, at least you'll be that much more ready to be a strong mother to your children while they process the divorce.


----------



## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Fair enough and good statements but the argument people try to push is an extreme one of abuse and I did not see evidence of that in any of the posts made.


----------



## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Keenwa said:


> Thanks all for your comments. It is nice to hear from others who have been through it and are not ridden with hate, resentment and anger for their partners. But I guess the comments from those who are are helpful as well as it reminds me that I am not there. I have no hate for him or animosity. We are two nice people who walked down a path together, and now one of us wants to say good bye but the other does not so much. One of the biggest reasons I wanted kids with him was because I didn't want my kids to have a deadbeat dad, and they don't. He is a great guy, kind and loving to his kids. But doesn't mean we need to stay together just because of this.
> 
> I did this for years, you know that stupid quote "be the change you want to see".. instead what it became was exactly that, him telling me he thought he was supporting me because he thought I liked doing all that crap... uh.... nope. "I thought you liked planning all the dates,, the vacations, the trips, the kids activities," the list is endless.... I was co-dependent because I took it all on and became the "manager of the house".... because of my own insecurities at the time.
> 
> ...


I relate to your situation a lot Keenwa. I also ended up doing everything for my X. I ran 90% of the business that was HIS dream, worked full time at my job, couldn't get him to help me around the house, made all his doctor appts (had to remind him when they were too), paid the bills, planned trips and nothing I did was ever good enough. When I'd ask him to help he'd either say 'ok' and just not do it, or just argue. So I took it all upon my myself to get things done. Am I screaming co-dependent yet?  I wish I would've gotten into counseling way sooner. 

It sounds like you have given this a lot of time and effort to make things better in your marriage. Your decision is not a hasty one. 

I liked this:


Keenwa said:


> I like that quote "relationships are for a reason, a season or a lifetime". Not all marriages are for a lifetime and to force them into this simply because you signed a "contract", is to make yourself a smidgeon of who you really are.


----------



## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

Struggle, thanks so much for your comments. There is no one to blame but ourselves. We are still together... it is better in the sense that I am tired of fighting and tired of feeling like crap so I took my counsellors advice and am fixing myself from within... not worrying about "us"... I have come to realize that the change I want to see happening with regards to "us" is dependant on myself but also on him. The change I want to see in myself is only dependent on me, and THAT... I can change now. 

So I'm working on it. Still haven't achieved a great balance but I work on it everyday. 

At lease my H and I are good friends, and we have always both been respectful towards each other. 





struggle said:


> I relate to your situation a lot Keenwa. I also ended up doing everything for my X. I ran 90% of the business that was HIS dream, worked full time at my job, couldn't get him to help me around the house, made all his doctor appts (had to remind him when they were too), paid the bills, planned trips and nothing I did was ever good enough. When I'd ask him to help he'd either say 'ok' and just not do it, or just argue. So I took it all upon my myself to get things done. Am I screaming co-dependent yet?  I wish I would've gotten into counseling way sooner.
> 
> It sounds like you have given this a lot of time and effort to make things better in your marriage. Your decision is not a hasty one.
> 
> I liked this:


----------



## Midlifeturmoil (Dec 30, 2013)

I too commend you for working hard on yourself and your marriage. Giving your husband every opportunity to join you in the effort. You did sign a contract...with someone else. It appears that the person you dated and married is long gone, and this other person is someone you likely never would have married in the first place. 

It is good that you feel contentment and happiness with aspects of your life beyond your marriage. So on balance, you are happy within.

"Happiness comes from within" I see this used time and time again on here convincing people to stay in dead relationships. In many cases, the fact that you have worked on "within" for months or years is ignored...like in your case. If all you had to do was change your mindset, your "within" to be happy in your marriage, then you could be happily married to anyone.

Act happy in your marriage and you will be happy in your marriage. Fake it till you make it. Certainly you have to start there. But you don't have to stay there.


----------

