# Messy daughter- Leave it or fight?



## Bellavista

My almost 15yo daughter is a very untidy & disorganised person. I am the complete opposite. She is the youngest of our 5 children by a few years.

I have given up on her having a tidy room all of the time, but at least a couple of times a week, I do ask her to clean it up & put away the washing I put just inside her door.

Her answer is usually, I will do it later, rarely does without being asked again, or, why do I have to tidy it, my room will only get messy again?

My reasons for wanting her room tidy, which I have conveyed to her:

1. Her father & I work hard to provide the things she has, I would like them to be respected & not thrown on the floor & trampled all over.
2. We are paying for the whole house, including her room, therefore I have the right to ask for it to be cleaned.
3. You can't go through like only doing what you want to.

We have tried monetary rewards & withholding of same, to no lasting avail. We have tried reasoning with her, but she simply is not a tidy person.
I have concluded I will never turn her into a tidy, organised person (she is my MIL all over), but ...

Is it wrong for us to insist that she keep her room in a reasonable state & will I be doing her lasting harm by insisting on this?

This is not really an issue I have had with the others as numbers 3b & 4g are like me, numbers 1b & 2b would clean their rooms when asked (& being boys did not have as much stuff as the girls)


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## lamaga

Well, you only have some much emotional capital to spend fighting with a teen -- do you really want to spend it on this? It's going to make your relationship one of constant struggle and strife -- which means that when a real problem arises, you're not going to have a position of strength from which to address it. I'd just insist that she keeps the common areas clean of her stuff, and keeps her door closed. If she can't find her things, or if they get ruined from being on the floor, then she can replace them with her own money or do without, but otherwise, I wouldn't make WWIII out of this. Just my two cents.


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## Chris Taylor

1. Her father & I work hard to provide the things she has, I would like them to be respected & not thrown on the floor & trampled all over.

Then stop providing. Simple as that. If she needs something, the price of that something is a clean room. No need to argue about it.

2. We are paying for the whole house, including her room, therefore I have the right to ask for it to be cleaned.

To a degree, yes. But everyone has their private space and should be able to do with it as they wish to a degree. Dirty plates that attract mice and ants? No. Clothes on the floor. Not a big deal.

3. You can't go through like only doing what you want to.

True. But in reality she will eventually learn. Like when she realizes her favorite jeans that she wants to put on are at the bottom of the dirty laundry pile in her room. Or she steps on her phone because it was under a towel.


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## SunnyT

And don't do her laundry. At 15, who wants to go in her gross room and "find" dirty clothes? 

My girls got ridiculous at the middle school age. I said I'd wash clothing that made it to the hamper in the laundry room. Theirs didn't. Eventually, I sent a note to their teacher about them possibly looking unkempt and explained my position... The girls got the message, and I've never washed their laundry since. 

So, like lamaga said.... choose your battles wisely. On the other hand, you do not have to go out of your way to make it easier for her to be a slob. I think slobs SHOULD suffer the consequences of making it harder on themselves than it should be. People who do not put things away should have the headache all by themselves of finding or retrieving their own belongings.

I don't think you are doing her lasting harm, most of us were nagged by parents for one reason or another, and slobs know at some level that they are a slob. But it is fighting a losing battle.... better to make HER suffer the consequences.


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## jenniferswe

this sounds like every teenager that ever existed. she will grow out of it.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

at 15 she is old enough to do her own laundry.

i agree with the others. her area, not that big of a deal.
if she wants to have people over, you can stipulate she can if her area is clean.


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## rj700

If she is not sloppy around the rest of the house, then count your blessings. At 15 she needs a space of her own. Yes, it is your house, you pay, etc., etc. But she needs to assert or feel like she has control over part of her life. Give her that space.


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## Bellavista

I will try to lighten up on her. As she herself points out, she is not doing drugs & she is not out whoring (her words) & she is passing at school. I should be grateful the only issue is her messiness.
Thanks guys


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## Gaia

lmao sorry but if it were my 15 yr old.. I guarantee you that child would be cleaning her room spotless! I guess I'm just meaner then the other parents here... but I wouldn't tolerate that. She may not be doing drugs or whoring.. but I sure as heck wouldn't have her be lazy either!


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## FirstYearDown

I am not a parent, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Kids today are too spoiled and lazy. When I was 15, I was doing laundry and ironing for SIX people. If my room was not kept clean, I would receive a tongue lashing.

Although my parents were abusive, they instilled a work ethic and cleanliness in me that I will always be grateful for. I don't advocate being too strict, but I do think that parents need to stop being so indulgent. Fifteen is more than old enough to expect a child to keep their room clean.


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## Bellavista

Our children have all been raised with the 'You don't work, you don't eat' mentality. The older ones do joke around now that when they left home, the first thing they did was buy a hamburger without having to spend all day cleaning the yard.
We were a lot stricter with the older ones, I think we have just lost some of the fight with the youngest.


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## Hope1964

I will never understand why parents choose to fight with their kids about their rooms. It makes no sense to me. If you've taught them how to clean, then they KNOW it's messy. It's their room, their stuff - why pick that battle? 

And why do we suddenly think our kids owe us for the roof over their heads when they reach a certain age? Do we look at our infants and think about everything they owe us? No. So why do our teens owe us? If we've done our job as a parent, they know what we do for them. Reminding them at every turn is guaranteed to make them resent what we've done for them, not appreciate it.

The trick is to get them to WANT to keep their rooms clean, if you can. You can just tell them matter of factly that they can't have guests when their room is messy. It doesn't have to be a battle. And if they choose to not have guests then that's fine. Let them have their messy room. Just make sure they know it's THEIR choice.

Giving kids choices rather than ultimatums goes a long way towards building mutual respect.


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## arbitrator

I'm sorry, but it's all in the discipline! Like their dad, my two college aged sons like their rooms cleaned and organized. They were brought up to clean them, and not properly doing so got them either fastly grounded or financially unrewarded. They learned extremely quickly.

Conversely, STBXW's kids are much like the ones described earlier in this post, only far worse. She or her kids dad obviously didn't believe in discipline and their kids would absolutely tear their rooms up and the rest of the house to hell and back. They would not discipline their kids, still rewarded them with allowances, and if they lost something, they would simply just go out and buy them newer items. Her kids were spoiled rotten and were so generally unclean that their filth would absolutely make a buzzard puke! STBXW would just deal with it by simply pulling their door shut on it!

And today, as young adults, they're even far worse!

I would greatly think that cleanliness and tidiness definitely starts with parental "discipline!"


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## bribrius

to get mine to clean her room recently, i had to take away her her laptop, take away her ds, take away her kindle, then i took away her tv, then i grounded her to the house and family (no friends), restricted her cellphone, limited her to only family activities, made her stay home from girl scouts, came close to pulling her out of her martial arts but didnt, threatened to put all her stuff in trash bags or have a flea market with it.

and finally... when i told her i would put a lock on her door and lock her out of her own room and make her sleep in the hallway (wife was shocked when i said this) she whined i couldnt like a spoiled brat leftwinger socialists but finally cleaned it. She knew at that point i had finally had it, and come hell or highwater i would take her bedroom completly away.
i hate being the disciplinarian and my wifes always jumps in because she thinks "im too hard on the kids" but i had about had it with the entire thing at that point. 
The room was finally cleaned a few days ago.


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## Hope1964

bribrius said:


> to get mine to clean her room recently, i had to take away her her laptop, take away her ds, take away her kindle, then i took away her tv, then i grounded her to the house and family (no friends), restricted her cellphone, limited her to only family activities, made her stay home from girl scouts, came close to pulling her out of her martial arts but didnt, threatened to put all her stuff in trash bags or have a flea market with it.
> 
> and finally... when i told her i would put a lock on her door and lock her out of her own room and make her sleep in the hallway (wife was shocked when i said this) she whined i couldnt like a spoiled brat leftwinger socialists but finally cleaned it. She knew at that point i had finally had it, and come hell or highwater i would take her bedroom completly away.
> i hate being the disciplinarian and my wifes always jumps in because she thinks "im too hard on the kids" but i had about had it with the entire thing at that point.
> The room was finally cleaned a few days ago.


Holy crap, seriously?? To me, this is bordering on child abuse. Treating anyone, your child or not, with this much disrespect is horrible 

Why the heck is it so important that she have a clean room? If it's that important to you, then YOU should clean it. You could have cleaned it ten times over with the energy you expended doing what you did to her.


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## arbitrator

Hope1964 said:


> Holy crap, seriously?? To me, this is bordering on child abuse. Treating anyone, your child or not, with this much disrespect is horrible
> 
> Why the heck is it so important that she have a clean room? If it's that important to you, then YOU should clean it. You could have cleaned it ten times over with the energy you expended doing what you did to her.


I'm sorry, but not making them clean their room shirks at making them responsible adults. Plain and simple! After all, what's the inherent lesson in letting them create and then live in their own squallor? Who really benefits from that?


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## bribrius

Hope1964 said:


> Holy crap, seriously?? To me, this is bordering on child abuse. Treating anyone, your child or not, with this much disrespect is horrible
> 
> Why the heck is it so important that she have a clean room? If it's that important to you, then YOU should clean it. You could have cleaned it ten times over with the energy you expended doing what you did to her.


my job is to raise her. I think the fact it took such extremes to finally get her to do it shows she is obviously too spoiled. I probably should have been more careful of who her friends were and never put her in public school as well. About the only thing i might have done right is keeping her in martial arts all these years so she at least got some discipline there where apparently she wasnt getting enough at home. Hoping it is partly the age too, and she might snap out of it.


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## Hope1964

If you've raised them properly, they won't WANT to live in their own squalor.

If you have to force them to do everything YOU want them to, all that's teaching them is that you're a bully.


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## Hope1964

bribrius said:


> my job is to raise her. I think the fact it took such extremes to finally get her to do it shows she is obviously too spoiled.


I think it just shows that you've been forcing her to comply all her life and she's finally had enough.

And I ask again, WHY is it so important that their room is clean? Who is it really benefiting? Are you going to follow her to work and MAKE her clean her office too??


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## bribrius

Hope1964 said:


> I think it just shows that you've been forcing her to comply all her life and she's finally had enough.
> 
> And I ask again, WHY is it so important that their room is clean? Who is it really benefiting? Are you going to follow her to work and MAKE her clean her office too??


you must be kidding.

if she cant be responsible for cleaning up after herself and respecting her things she is going to make a sad adult.


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## lamaga

bribrius said:


> she is going to make a sad adult.


Without years of therapy? Quite likely.


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## Hope1964

You are COMPLETELY missing my point. You are abusing your kids and forcing them to comply to your will. What the heck is THAT teaching them?!?!

It is not YOUR JOB to MAKE your kids do things. It is your job to show them why they should choose to do certain things and be a certain way. Right now you're teaching them that they should do these things because otherwise you'll bully them. When they're on their own and don't have the threat hanging over them, what do you think is going to happen?? 

Maybe you're one of those parents that will continue to exert control over them after they leave home by threatening them with taking away your affection or something. I don't know. I just really, really feel sorry for your kids.


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## Hope1964

And I ask AGAIN - WHY is it so important that her room be clean??????????????????????????????????????????


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## bribrius

Hope1964 said:


> You are COMPLETELY missing my point. You are abusing your kids and forcing them to comply to your will. What the heck is THAT teaching them?!?!
> 
> It is not YOUR JOB to MAKE your kids do things. It is your job to show them why they should choose to do certain things and be a certain way. Right now you're teaching them that they should do these things because otherwise you'll bully them. When they're on their own and don't have the threat hanging over them, what do you think is going to happen??
> 
> Maybe you're one of those parents that will continue to exert control over them after they leave home by threatening them with taking away your affection or something. I don't know. I just really, really feel sorry for your kids.


Dont. And i really dont care what your opinion is. Nor will i listen to your input. You are wasting your time. Go raise your own kids.


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## Hope1964

Of course you don't want to listen to what I have to say.

And my kids are all raised, thanks 

You don't have an answer as to why your daughters room needs to be clean, do you?


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## lamaga

Hope1964 said:


> You don't have an answer as to why your daughters room needs to be clean, do you?


Because he SAID so, Hope! What other reason does any typical 12th-century dad need?


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## Hope1964

lamaga said:


> Because he SAID so, Hope! What other reason does any typical 12th-century dad need?


Of course - silly me. It's so OBVIOUS.


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## SadSamIAm

Who sets the rules of the house? The parent or the child?

There is no other reason to clean the room other than that is one of the rules that was set by the parent. 

Just like why does a child need to be home at a certain time? Why do they need to say 'please' and 'thank-you'? Why can't they just take the pill and have sex whenever they want?

These are all things that parents do to try to help their children become responsible adults. 

I personally don't really care if my child's room is clean. But I know it bothers my wife. It is her rule, and the children need to respect the rules of the parents.


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## bribrius

SadSamIAm said:


> Who sets the rules of the house? The parent or the child?
> 
> There is no other reason to clean the room other than that is one of the rules that was set by the parent.
> 
> Just like why does a child need to be home at a certain time? Why do they need to say 'please' and 'thank-you'? Why can't they just take the pill and have sex whenever they want?
> 
> These are all things that parents do to try to help their children become responsible adults.
> 
> I personally don't really care if my child's room is clean. But I know it bothers my wife. It is her rule, and the children need to respect the rules of the parents.


My wife wants her room clean too, but lacks the follow through. So she tells her to clean it and our daughter blows her off. She will threaten a punishment and our daughter will blow her off because she knows my wife doesn't have the heart to follow through she feels bad. I basically go down a checklist of what im taking away. It is up to our daughter if she wants to go clean it or keep losing things.
I am simililar with her school grades, she does well i pay her so she has blow money. She has a allowance and stock account/bank account i put money in to teach her about how it works but she isnt allowed to just go blow that. She maintains honoroll she at least dont lose anything. She drops below that she knows she is quickly losing other activities and spending more time cracking the books. So far she has kept her grades up and done well.
She does well in martial arts (she does some tournaments, belt testing etc.she likes to compete) i reward her too. Bring her somewhere or let her do something fun. She has to practice though, which i encourage and do it with her so i encourage that way as well. But if she doesnt do well and put the work in she gets no extras from that. She has done well in martial arts. (another thing about her room is she has lots of weapons in it from martial arts, sword, kamas, sticks etc.)
She wanted a icecream a couple weeks ago and i told her if she wanted it she had to walk eight miles with me. I wanted to see if she would. She did it so she cant be too far spoiled.
Good time to talk with her and check up on how she as doing as well.


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## costa200

I'm a teacher and i can say that without a doubt, kids who are taught to do things and take responsibilities regarding themselves are better students 9/10.

Whenever i have to speak to underachieving students their parents always come with that "we do everything for them" line. Well, doing everything for them is part of the problem. 

The logic that if the parents are trying really hard they should reciprocate is not understood by teens. 



> Because he SAID so, Hope! What other reason does any typical 12th-century dad need?


Yeah... Well i see the results of that Laissez-faire attitude regarding kids all day long. Conducting themselves like they answer to nobody. Usually it leads to bad things. And this is me, having to spend more time with them than their parents and actually having to worry more about them than their supposed parents.

And more importantly, all the parents of these "free for all" kids think their kids are some hot stuff, when they are just spoiled brats.

You don't get to decide if your child is an amazing genius. Society will do that for you. And generally it will not agree.




> You don't have an answer as to why your daughters room needs to be clean, do you?


Health reasons? Parents not wanting their home to look like a homeless shelter? And yes, because the parents want it so is enough. It's their home, their money and until the child is a responsible adult they have the power of decision. The child is not an adult and should not be treated as such until they act like one.



> I am simililar with her school grades, she does well i pay her so she has blow money. She has a allowance and stock account/bank account i put money in to teach her about how it works but she isnt allowed to just go blow that. She maintains honoroll she at least dont lose anything. She drops below that she knows she is quickly losing other activities and spending more time cracking the books. So far she has kept her grades up and done well.


Thank you for being a responsible parent. I'm pretty sure her teachers appreciate it and she will also thank you later, although right now she may hate your guts sometimes.


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## golfergirl

My 20 year old daughter came home from school last summer and flung every article of clothing around her room. After a week of warning her and being blown off, I packed every article of her clothing in garbage bags and hid them. When she had time, we sorted and organized her clothes. She still laughs about it but was quite upset at first (to my amusement).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## costa200

golfergirl said:


> My 20 year old daughter came home from school last summer and flung every article of clothing around her room. After a week of warning her and being blown off, I packed every article of her clothing in garbage bags and hid them. When she had time, we sorted and organized her clothes. She still laughs about it but was quite upset at first (to my amusement).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like my sister... She does that sort of thing and my mother sometimes makes her stuff go away. When she asks about it my mother says something along the lines of "i don't remember where i put it".


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## FirstYearDown

My mother once left a note on my bed:

"CLEAN UP THIS F***ING ROOM."

:lol::lol:

I did as she asked and then we had a good laugh about her loving memo.


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## Bellavista

It would be good if all kids were like my 20yo son. he is so fussy with his home office he has his own bottles of cleaner lined up with cloths, as well as his own vacuum.
He will make someone a good wife one day...


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## Gaia

lmao there are men out there that clean and make great husbands too. Being a neat freak isn't just a woman thing... your daughter and son are proving that when compared eh? lol


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## CLucas976

I find some of this funny.

My mom drove me up a freaking wall all through school and my step dad was a tyrant with his discipline.

My room has always been a mess. When I decide I want to clean it, I do.

I know what I have and have not worn, I know where I put everything, no one could go into my room and find anything unless they're me, and that's just how my bedroom has always been, even when I lived on my own. When I get tired of it, or want to get rid of things, I clean it.

I got and an advanced regents, graduated with honors from college, keep a job, keep my work area clean, kept the rest of the house area clean (except towards the end when I was insanely depressed, and sleeping, drinking myself to sleep, or working) Keep my animals groomed. I function just fine.

No drugs, no whoring, just a messy bedroom. I adore my fancy things, take excellent care of them. 

It just seems funny to me that there is so much said about what happens to a teenager who has a messy room here. I mean really, I function fully as an adult, pay my bills, take care of things just fine, and moved out of home at 18 and worked my way through college. I wasn't spoiled, everyone hated my parents. I get things done, I'm the only one in my family to graduate highschool..If anything the strict parenting I dealt with, made me less motivated to do anything because it was like that one poster because "they" said so, and "they" did so much for me etc etc.

worry about the rest of your house, don't replace what gets broken from your kids mess, and ask her to do her own laundry and shut her door. I honestly don't remember when my mom stopped doing my laundry for me, I was still in elementary school. sheesh.


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## Hope1964

I know. I don't get it either, all this anecdotal 'evidence' that if we don't MAKE our kids do things, they won't be responsible adults. My kids are all on their own, they have clean houses (cleaner than mine actually), hold down jobs, etc. They aren't perfect but who is? I didn't raise them to do what I say just because I say so - that's nuts. Give them a reason, they're MUCH more likely to WANT to do it and continue to do it when they're older.

And what kind of a reason is 'because its a rule'??? WHY is it a rule? Rules should be a result of something, something logical, such as if you speed you're more likely to kill someone, therefore there's a speed limit. What logical reason is there for your kid keeping their room clean to your standards? Making her clean it is sending the message that you think she's incompetent to make her own decision about when it needs cleaning.

Incidentally, my kids all had 'messy' rooms growing up. I didn't harass them to clean them. Nothing ever caught fire or grew uncontrollably from a dirty dish. They actually decided ON THEIR OWN that they needed to keep things at least that clean. And I quit doing their laundry for them when they were old enough to bring it to me and learn to use the machine. I would tell them when I was doing laundry and that if they had anything they wanted me to throw in to bring it. I would do it and put it (unfolded) on their bed. That was it.

Things in our house were chaotic, relaxed, fun, stressful and everything else that having three teens entails. But we never had battles about cleanliness. Life is WAY too short for that kind of nonsense.

And don't even get me started on forcing your kids to get good grades. That just smacks of totalitarianism. The public school system should be a tool that parents use in the education of their kids, not the be all and end all of education that it has become.


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## CLucas976

"And don't even get me started on forcing your kids to get good grades. That just smacks of totalitarianism. The public school system should be a tool that parents use in the education of their kids, not the be all and end all of education that it has become. "

I will never forget the time I brought home an 85 as my grade for a quarter. I was pleased with all my quarter reports and showed them to my mom. 

Her response was, "you want me to be happy about this? an 85 just shows me that you could do better, and you just slacked off. I want to see that you're actually working hard."

I'm pretty certain that was meant to motivate me to strive for better, but I can tell you it did the total opposite. I'm not saying low grades should be ignored, but sometimes it helps to look at parenting from your kids perspective too. Not because life is full of rainbows and butterflies, but because well rounded kids come from well rounded parenting.


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## costa200

> And don't even get me started on forcing your kids to get good grades. That just smacks of totalitarianism.


Oh brother... Yes, every action to try and get your kid to perform must be equated to a political system... Thing is, i don't run a democracy at home. You better bet that it's full on dictatorial, only with two rulers, me and wife. 

Oh, and in the classroom, same thing. Full on "dear leader" like in North Korea. Kids love it 

Really, they do, because apparently these days they are happy with any attention they can get. Parents don't have rules for them to follow and they get this as their parents not caring for them (weird, but that's how they operate). They see me teaching proper classroom behavior as a sort of affection. Specially because i take time to explain why their behavior is unacceptable.


You don't see the need to keep a clean room because you never minded much. It wasn't important for you. What if you wanted to have a clean house from top to bottom? Would you then not push them too?

If you didn't use cleaning the room i'm pretty sure you used other types of responsibilization to try and teach your kids that it's not all fun and games. Think a bit, what did you do to teach your kids that lazying around the TV/videogames all day when there were other obligations to do wasn't acceptable.



> The public school system should be a tool that parents use in the education of their kids, not the be all and end all of education that it has become.


I think you're totally mistaken about the objective of a public school system. It's not about it being a tool to teach kids as much as it is a mechanism to create a competent workforce to feed the capitalist machine. 

That's why there are grades. We are basically using numbers to signify the level of mental ability of kids. This allows future employers to have a measure of their skills before they hire them. If it was not of this connection between school and economic enterprise there would not be a need for grades.

And the big thing is, when you don't push your kids to do better other parents will. In this system it means your kids will be handicapped. They can still find jobs and all but they will have certain paths in life barred. 

Just look at the stereotypic asian that lives in the west. Successful, well employed, strong financial assets... 

Why? Because the parents, due to their culture, push kids much more. And yes, it's hard work to do it. But you're doing it to make it possible for your kid to choose a path in life, any path in life, instead of being limited to whatever paths don't require good grades. 



> I will never forget the time I brought home an 85 as my grade for a quarter. I was pleased with all my quarter reports and showed them to my mom.
> 
> Her response was, "you want me to be happy about this? an 85 just shows me that you could do better, and you just slacked off. I want to see that you're actually working hard."


That's a silly mistake many parents do. To compliment on a good result is much more effective than downplaying it.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

I found as an adult that my need for having things clean and organized sometimes didn't serve me very well. For instance, I had trouble focusing on work unless I knew all my 'chores' were done around the house. I also tended to obsess over details when I was doing data analysis, and thus could have to put in extra hours because of being overly conscientious about having stuff documented, etc. I also didn't get out as much as I would have liked and probably didn't have visitors over as much because I thought my house wasn't up to snuff. How dumb was that? Fortunately your daughter won't have these issues. If she goes away to college she won't have any trouble dealing with a large amount of stuff in a small amount of space and she will forget about having the designer dorm room or apartment and get on with all of the activities that form life. I was a complete slob as a kid, then went through a long period of needing to be organized, and now have had to learn how to live a bit like a slob again, for my own good. Be careful what you wish for! 

I have a daughter who is 8 and she is like me when I was younger...her brother is the exact opposite, very tidy and neat and organized (but has a lot of 'stuff' he collects here and there...) When my daughter's room starts bugging me, I spend about an hour cleaning it up. Otherwise I don't expect her to change her temperament much. Human beings are really not designed to live in this modern life and have so much STUFF. Failure to recognize stuff is kind of a good thing, it means that she is maladaptive to something modern that is probably, given our natural resources and the economy, a passing fad - abundance. Maybe when she grows up a bit more she will become a minimalist and not overburden herself with stuff. Never say never. I've been known to put masking tape on the floor to mark the walkways and just to push anything in the walkways out of them. Just a safety thing at night. In case of fire or other need to evacuate or to be rescued.


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## Hope1964

costa200 said:


> what did you do to teach your kids that lazying around the TV/videogames all day when there were other obligations to do wasn't acceptable.


I let them experience the consequences. And with my daughter, I took her out of school in grade nine and let her homeschool herself. She spent a few months doing nothing but playing video games, then suddenly she started actually learning things - wait for it - ALL ON HER OWN, because she WANTED to. She had been conditioned for 9 years to have learning spoon fed to her, and didn't know HOW to teach herself until she decided she was bored with staying up all night and playing video games and sleeping the days away.

As for asians being an example for us, well, I want my kids to be happy. If that means high power careers and having too much money, I hope they achieve that. I'm sure they will, if they want to. If happiness for them is living in a yurt and growing their own food and never washing their hair, then I want that for them too. 

Kids do need boundaries, but they don't need them shoved down their throats. Treating them like subjects rather than valuable members of the family doesn't get the results I want. 

If I wanted a clean house, they would be expected to do their part, not because I forced them to, but because they actually wanted to. The trick is to make them want to.


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## Gaia

Not sure if all of us are on the same page here as far as what we consider messy or not but I will put this. I would require my kids to keep their rooms clean no matter what age they are. So long as they still live with me and my H they will be required to do chores and keep their bedrooms clean. Now by clean ... this is what I mean.


1. No food or crumbs scattered everywhere 
2. No dirty dishes left in the room
3. If they have snacks and drinks... the empty cans, bottles, bags, ect will not be allowed to be strewn all over the room or tucked under the beds. 
4. Their clothes can be set in a pile, in a hamper, and if they are old enough.. such as in their teens.. they will be required to do their own laundry or at least bring it to the laundry room. 

These would be the rules I would set and the reason being it does teach them responsibility as adults. They don't have to have the room perfectly organized or clutter free in the case of having "Stuff" but I will require it not be a dumpster. For one..... dirty laundry stinks.. we all know that.. and food and drink left out everywhere.. yes that attracts unwanted bugs and rodents. Now.. in case of them having their area.. I would like to point out this. When renting an apartment.. sure it's your area but ultimately it doesn't belong to you. You pay to stay there and alot of apartments I've ever been in do require the area to be kept clean. They do have inspections every so and so months and if someone fails said inspection.. well they get evicted because the landlords will not tolerate their building being kept in unsanitary conditions. Clutter is one thing.... a trash bin is another. The same concept goes for a teen in their parents house imo. They may have their area but that doesn't mean they can do whatever they please with it since it ultimately does not belong to them. Now if that makes me a mean parent or a tyrant.. so be it but like i said.. there are rules set by society that every person is required to follow regardless of where they stay or how old they are. I really don't think it unreasonable to require your teen to keep the room clean. Now if they want it cluttered with their precious items.. well fine .. just so long as it's clean. Now when they move out and have a place of their own, they can do whatever they damn well please as.. like i stated in another thread.. they are on their own. While they are living with me however .. i will be trying my damn hardest to teach them good morals, behaviors, how to be responsible, ect. Now I'm not one of those parents that demand they do something because "I said so" I actually sit my kids down and explain WHY mommy wants them to do this or that. Sure my kids aren't in their teen years yet ... not even in double digit years but they aren't stupid either and do understand when things are explained to them. Right now.. of course.. I do all the cleaning.. and they choose to help me when they see me cleaning. I do applaud and encourage them when they do this and they love it. Yes I know... in the teens they will probably not enjoy it like they do now.. but i do hope with me giving them encouragement and telling them how proud it makes me that they will be motivated to keep doing it. They have actually started to clean up on their own now.. just because and like i said.. i encourage them to do it and give them praise for it.


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## costa200

> As for asians being an example for us, well, I want my kids to be happy. If that means high power careers and having too much money, I hope they achieve that. I'm sure they will, if they want to. If happiness for them is living in a yurt and growing their own food and never washing their hair, then I want that for them too.


I totally get that. The thing is, what if they decide that happiness is being a medical doctor and their grades aren't high enough to get in? Do you see where i'm coming from? A kid with good school results can chose to become a street bum if he wants to. A kid with not so good grades can't become a doctor just because he decides to because it will be next to impossible. 



> I let them experience the consequences. And with my daughter, I took her out of school in grade nine and let her homeschool herself. She spent a few months doing nothing but playing video games, then suddenly she started actually learning things - wait for it - ALL ON HER OWN, because she WANTED to. She had been conditioned for 9 years to have learning spoon fed to her, and didn't know HOW to teach herself until she decided she was bored with staying up all night and playing video games and sleeping the days away.


Have you read on the Montessori education method? It's very similar to what you did with your daughter. The results are mixed. Some kids excel at that environment but others are utter failures. It seems that the results are more extreme. Great students came out of it but also total zeros. 

It's one of my favorite case studies. It shows something i've known since my school days. For a good student there is no need for formal classes. But many students would amount to nothing after years in that situation.

Lucky for you your daughter started studying. What would you have done if she hadn't?


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## Gaia

Hope1964 said:


> If I wanted a clean house, they would be expected to do their part, not because I forced them to, but because they actually wanted to. The trick is to make them want to.


I agree with this.. hence why i encourage my kids and praise them for good behavior and deeds now. I actually do want them to WANT to do these things.. rather then feeling they HAVE to. Of course i do also teach them if they do bad things... they will get bad consequences for it. Such as... if my son hits his sister with a toy.. that toy gets confiscated and he goes to time out for about 15 minutes or until he cools down. Once he's cooled down.. i require him to give his sister a kiss or hug to show he is sorry.. and he does. Same goes for his sister.


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## golfergirl

In my case - we were in process of listing house and had showings with little or no notice.
Also, my daughter proved she could keep a clean home. She agreed to it as a condition to live at home rent-free for the summer. 
I don't think it harms kids to be taught to be tidy. And rules do suck. 
I don't think most people are talking 'hospital corners'. More like tidy, covers thrown over bed and no food or plates.
And if clean laundry is strewn all over with dirty, they get mixed up and you're rewashing clean. It was getting ridiculous.
With water bill at $100 a month, I trump my right to not be wasteful, vs. Her 'right' to her own space, as an adult, living for free in my home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bellavista

I do wonder at times if this daughter think that items cease to exist if they are in drawers or cupboards. She likes to have everything where she can see it. Some of the issue has been solved by getting her a set of bookshelves that she can stack things on, but her method of cleaning her room is still to pick everything off the floor & out it on the desk or dresser. My MIL is the same, her kitchen bench is covered in things.
Thankfully there is no issue with food or dishes in the rooms, if the kids really feel the need to eat in their rooms, they do bring the plates back out to the kitchen straight away, as well, each of them has to empty their bins once a week at a minimum.
the 2 things I have always been big on with my kids is consequences, either good or bad & developing independance. I am raising them to be fully functional adults.


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## FirstYearDown

Gaia said:


> lmao there are men out there that clean and make great husbands too. Being a neat freak isn't just a woman thing... your daughter and son are proving that when compared eh? lol



:iagree::iagree:
My husband is very neat. Neatest man I have ever been with.


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## Hope1964

costa200 said:


> I totally get that. The thing is, what if they decide that happiness is being a medical doctor and their grades aren't high enough to get in? Do you see where i'm coming from? A kid with good school results can chose to become a street bum if he wants to. A kid with not so good grades can't become a doctor just because he decides to because it will be next to impossible.


I guess that I figure if someone who failed at school wants to become a doctor, there's no reason they couldn't. It would just take a lot more time and effort for them than for a kid who got good grades. I would far rather have a doctor who had to really earn their MD than one who was conditioned to get good grades from the time they were 4. IMO good grades do not = being a good doctor.




costa200 said:


> Have you read on the Montessori education method? It's very similar to what you did with your daughter. The results are mixed. Some kids excel at that environment but others are utter failures. It seems that the results are more extreme. Great students came out of it but also total zeros.
> 
> It's one of my favorite case studies. It shows something i've known since my school days. For a good student there is no need for formal classes. But many students would amount to nothing after years in that situation.
> 
> Lucky for you your daughter started studying. What would you have done if she hadn't?


I've heard bits and pieces about Montessori but am not really familiar with the method.

I really think that many students have just given up and that, if they were allowed to pursue their own education from an early age, they'd be far better at it than they are after attending school. Formal schooling is a product of the industrial age born of the necessity of educating the masses, and I don't think that the focus is always on the best education for each child, but rather on pumpin' 'em out in a lot of cases. Some kids are lucky enough to get a certain teacher that they click with, or be the type of learner that learns despite the system, but I really think alternatives are better for a lot of kids.

If my daughter hadn't started learning? I really don't know what I'd have done. I never really considered that possibility. I kinda knew she WOULD I guess. I probably wouldn't have done anything though. I myself quit school in grade 11 and was out for 5 years to party and live it up, until at 21 I decided I wanted to get an education, and went back to high school as a mature adult, did correspondence, got my high school (won scholarships too) and then went on to get a BSc from university. 100% on my own. I could have been a doctor, too. So I would have probably figured that she would do something similar when she was ready.

I also don't think a lot of kids are ready for university at age 17-18 - I fully support those who want to take a break and not just plunge right into it after high school. Those 5 years were a huge part of making me who I am today.


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## lamaga

I do support a break before college for those students who need it and can afford it. The "gap year" is a great tradition that I wish would catch on here in the US, especially if it's spent in international travel or service activities and not just hanging out with your old high school buddies.

But I do have some quibbles with the rest of your post, Hope. If you don't have good grades in high school, you aren't going to get into a good college, and if you don't have good grades in college, you're not going to get into med school, period. It's not a matter of "working harder" -- you aren't going to get in, or you'll end up in one of those fly-by-night schools in Grenada.

It's completely appropriate to question the extent to which grades truly determine intelligence and talent, but it's also wise to remember that we live in the system in which we live.


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## Hope1964

Why can't you? The system has ways around it. The marks you had in high school aren't going to count much if you upgrade and get better ones, or if you're 45 and decide to do it, or if you transfer from another program. Maybe it's different here, I don't know, but most if not all university entrance requirements are a lot more flexible than people know.


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## costa200

> really think that many students have just given up and that, if they were allowed to pursue their own education from an early age, they'd be far better at it than they are after attending school. Formal schooling is a product of the industrial age born of the necessity of educating the masses, and I don't think that the focus is always on the best education for each child, but rather on pumpin' 'em out in a lot of cases. Some kids are lucky enough to get a certain teacher that they click with, or be the type of learner that learns despite the system, but I really think alternatives are better for a lot of kids.


Totally agree. 



> If my daughter hadn't started learning? I really don't know what I'd have done. I never really considered that possibility. I kinda knew she WOULD I guess. I probably wouldn't have done anything though. I myself quit school in grade 11 and was out for 5 years to party and live it up, until at 21 I decided I wanted to get an education, and went back to high school as a mature adult, did correspondence, got my high school (won scholarships too) and then went on to get a BSc from university. 100% on my own. I could have been a doctor, too. So I would have probably figured that she would do something similar when she was ready.


Was a risky gamble there wasn't it. I've seen similar situations end up rather poorly. I remember a case of a kid that dropped out in the 9th grade and spent some 6 years doing absolutely nothing until his father had enough and gave him the squeeze. 



> I also don't think a lot of kids are ready for university at age 17-18 - I fully support those who want to take a break and not just plunge right into it after high school. Those 5 years were a huge part of making me who I am today.


Not everyone can afford that. I know i couldn't. In those 5 years my degree would be done and over. 



> I guess that I figure if someone who failed at school wants to become a doctor, there's no reason they couldn't. It would just take a lot more time and effort for them than for a kid who got good grades. I would far rather have a doctor who had to really earn their MD than one who was conditioned to get good grades from the time they were 4. IMO good grades do not = being a good doctor.


Take note that I did not say a kid with good grades should become an MD. What i said was that he can if he wants it. 



> Why can't you? The system has ways around it. The marks you had in high school aren't going to count much if you upgrade and get better ones, or if you're 45 and decide to do it, or if you transfer from another program. Maybe it's different here, I don't know, but most if not all university entrance requirements are a lot more flexible than people know.


That's a lot of wasted time. An MD needs about a decade of studying/training to fully reach the high point of his trade. If you add that to upgrading grades (re-doing it really) what do you get? A person that takes a huge amount of time before he/she gets where he/she wants to be. To the point that we are talking about middle age (40-50) by the time he/she is finally established. 

All of that could be avoided with a little effort at the right time. 

And i'm not even factoring in evident problems to get there (who is paying for all that, inability to get a real family of his/her own etc.).

And why? Because kids can be a little happier doing their own thing for a while? I think they can do whatever they want when they are making the money they want to make, on their own time.



> I've heard bits and pieces about Montessori but am not really familiar with the method.


You really should, i think you would like it a lot.


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