# I'll tickle your willy tomorrow evening...



## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

I'm not sure why I am writing this....maybe to vent some frustration...maybe to seek some guidance...maybe just for a bit of sympathy...or maybe a bit of all three?

From my posts, you will have learnt that I am in a 'once a month' if I am lucky marriage.
Last night my wife and I were watching a documentary in bed. I was lying on my back, 'propped' up. She complained of a stiff neck and lay across my chest. I was naked (sleep 'au nature') under the duvet. I started massaging her neck and shoulders...she took her t-shirt off (NEVER sleeps 'au nature') and asked me to massage and tickle the rest of her back. I did this willingly for about 30 minutes, by which time it was about 2315hrs. I was getting tired (I have to be up at 0700) so told her that I was tired. She got up, looked at me quizzically and asked if I was going to sleep. 'Yes, I'm tired'...I gave her a 'peck' (she refuses to french kiss)...and turned over. As I turned over she said "I'll tickle your willy tomorrow evening"....I ignored the comment. A minute later she asked if I was going to reply....so I did; "If the only reason you have offered to 'tickle my willy' is because I have tickled and massaged your back tonight, then I'm not interested". She made no comment.

Had she wanted to do something back to me whilst I was doing her back, she had ample opportunity to 'tickle my willy'.....

I am now at work, seething . Thank goodness for TAM!!


----------



## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

I think that you're overreacting.
Women always complain that men can't "read the signs" about when, where and how to make love. If my wife had taken her shirt off and laid across me for a massage, I would have taken that as a sign to go further.
She was obviously enjoying the massage and just allowed that to continue. No problem there.
After you had finished massaging as much as you wanted to, you told her that you were going to sleep and rolled over. That was likely a sign to her that the night was over.
She offered a repayment for the massage later.
I would have taken that rain check and collected at my convenience.
I think you blew it on getting that "tickle".


----------



## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

DanF....many thanks for your quick response! I think you are quite right, I probably have blown my chances. However, its a pride thing...I want my wife to do something to me because she WANTS to, not because she is repaying something.
She took her t-shirt off for ease of access to her back...not her 'breasts' because she doesnt like me going anywhere near them! 
Also, had she wanted to escalate things, then instead of just lying there enjoying what I was doing to her for over half an hour, she could so easily have slipped her hand under the duvet and on to my.....
But she didn't....
I am not going to ask my wife outright if she 'wouldnt mind awfully touching my peenee a bit'... I have been rejected too often.


----------



## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

jezza,
You know your situation better than I do.
If I couldn't french kiss, play with the "girls" or had to beg for some attention to my "boys", I'd be pretty frustrated myself.
However, I am willing to trade services with the wife. SShe'll ask me for a backrub, which I will do anytime, but she'll sweeten the deal with an "all the way" BJ in return.
I'm always for that!


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

That's a woman's way of initiating sex.
She's not going to be as bold as you are.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Now see, this all perspective.

I don't think she was initiating anything. I think it is exactly as jezza called it. She desired non-sexual contact. He did something nice for her, she was obviously aware that he was aroused but chose not to acknowledge that fact with a word or a touch.

She didn't want to have sex ... bet felt like she owed him sex.

And that just sucks, and I wouldn't want it either.

Your story gave me flashbacks. I can remember being in a similar non-sexual situation, and becoming aroused with no expectation of 'game on'. She looked at my erection and then at me like a friggin misbehaving child.

Yeah ... _That_ didn't go over well.


You did the right thing.


----------



## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Thanks Deejo!
However maybe I did miss the 'come on'....I was doing the massaging stuff...the only 'clue' I got was that she took her top off so that I could do her whole back. She just lay there enjoying it and doing absolutely nothing in return. 

Hicks mentioned that maybe she isnt as 'bold' as me....she was lying on me, I was massaging her neck and back, if she did want more she could so easily have started fondling me, but she didn't.

On so many occasions in the past I have massaged her back, and slowly moved round to her butt cheeks and and continued down and round for her to stop me saying something like 'all you ever want is sex'...or if she's being kinder 'I'm not in the mood'. 
I'm fed up with being rejected. If I massage her back and she is ready for more (what *I* might want, need or like doesn't come in to it) then I expect a very clear come on...like her fondling my bits or a 'I'm feeling horny'....


----------



## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Deejo said:


> She didn't want to have sex ... bet felt like she owed him sex.
> 
> And that just sucks, and I wouldn't want it either.


I guess I understand this... you want your woman to want you. I get that. But what is she supposed to do if she does not feel like it but wants to show love to you because YOU want it?


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Taking her shirt off and laying on him and planning to not show desire for him is deliberate cruelty.

And tossing off that comment was acknowledging her negative interactions.

What a turn off. Hostile behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

michzz said:


> Taking her shirt off and laying on him and planning to not show desire for him is deliberate cruelty.


It IS? What is hostile behavior is giving a back rub with a tit-for-tat goal of sex. 

I think once you get stuck in this kind of dynamic, you are ****ed. SOMEONE has to break the tit for tat cycle and learn to just give selflessly.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Yes, to me the context is a sexually deprived marriage.

And she was acting like she didn't realize that pressing her naked breasts on him would be a sexual thing.

That's what's hostile. She knew what his reaction would be. And had no desire for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I guess I understand this... you want your woman to want you. I get that. But what is she supposed to do if she does not feel like it but wants to show love to you because YOU want it?


Just make it look more like desire than a favor 

A smile. A kiss. A smirk. And then go for it.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> It IS? What is hostile behavior is giving a back rub with a tit-for-tat goal of sex.
> 
> I think once you get stuck in this kind of dynamic, you are ****ed. SOMEONE has to break the tit for tat cycle and learn to just give selflessly.


I agree. And if it's the guy ... you have just, despite your good intentions of bridging the gap, unwittingly begun the downward spiral of nice guy syndrome. This DOES establish a 'gate-keeper' mentality.

The guy's best course of action is to do exactly what Jezza did. A stern 'no thank you' to offers of sympathy sex, if proffered from a place of grudging obligation rather than willingness.

That and being emotionally honest with your spouse instead of appearing needy or manipulative - which is how she will interpret your efforts at selfless giving. She may still think you're just being nice to get laid.

"All you want is sex."

That line is like an emotional sucker punch.

No ... all I want is sex with *YOU*. Just you. The woman I love. My wife. I want to have sex with you because of what you mean to me, not just because you've got t!ts and a vajayjay.

The dynamic gets so screwed up.


----------



## Dancing Nancie (Jul 1, 2008)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I guess I understand this... you want your woman to want you. I get that. But what is she supposed to do if she does not feel like it but wants to show love to you because YOU want it?


I may be in the minority here, but when my wife shows me love just because I want it and shows no enthusiasm I call that pity sex and I have no desire for it... It's hard to make love with a partner who is not enthusiastic about doing it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Deejo said:


> I don't think she was initiating anything. I think it is exactly as jezza called it. She desired non-sexual contact.


I agree with this because for many many years, I wanted my back scratched (absolutley loved this & craved it ) and cared not a thing about it going any further . Husband always did it faithfully for me , even when it led to nothing else. Patience of Job again. If he was in a persistent mood & took it a little further going down in between the legs, it usually went somewhere, but half the time he waited for some gesture from me to show I wanted him back, a kiss, a turning over to allow him access to my front. Otherwise he "appeared" content to go to sleep that night & wait till the next time he was scratching & I did showed these things. 

He acted in this way - probably because of how HURT he would have been even thinking I might be doing it "just for him". 

I KNOW his sexual patience was due to envisioning those nights when I came on to him hot & ready. For him, he almost NEEDED to feel desired & wanted. He would still say this today. Nothing else would satisfy, or he would find the act somehow unfullfilling/hollow. 


I don't blame Jezza at all, that would tick me off too!


----------



## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I read that as she did desire some non-sexual contact, but then at the end of it was expecting a come-on and was surprised she didn't get one.

My take was the surprise on you saying you were going to sleep was because she a) expected your advances and b) was disappointed because she would have taken you up on it, thus the offer. She was expecting you to be dominant and take the lead. But I see why you didn't.

Obviously I don't know in depth the dynamic between you two, but is it her "style" to make the first move when she does do it? You might "expect" a very clear come-on, but does she know you expect that? Have you explicitly stated that? Otherwise you might be setting yourself up for disappointment when she was actually in her own way saying she would be up for it.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Moving on to tonight ...
If she makes a move to keep her word, this is good. Take the tickle, and thank her for being true to her word.

If she is content playing gatekeeper. She'll wait for, and expect you to ask. Don't.

My opinion as far as last night goes, is that Jezza could have gone the dominant route and made sex happen ... only to reinforce his wifes already present belief that all he wants is sex.

What he did, was more dominant. It expressed self-control and a boundary regarding sex. Whether she was giving him a veiled invitation or not, he managed the situation. His response to her provided a fraction of the feeling of being consistently rejected. And it sucks.


----------



## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Deejo said:


> I agree. And if it's the guy ... you have just, despite your good intentions of bridging the gap, unwittingly begun the downward spiral of nice guy syndrome. This DOES establish a 'gate-keeper' mentality.
> 
> The guy's best course of action is to do exactly what Jezza did. A stern 'no thank you' to offers of sympathy sex, if proffered from a place of grudging obligation rather than willingness.
> 
> ...


It sure as hell doesn't feel like it to the women whose husbands won't consider THEIR PoV but still think it makes sense to be getting some.



> No ... all I want is sex with *YOU*. Just you. The woman I love. My wife. I want to have sex with you because of what you mean to me, not just because you've got t!ts and a vajayjay.


No all you want FROM ME is sex. How about romance? How about listening to my words and trying to understand them? How about bowling? Discussing parenting? Want me to want you? That's what it takes.



> The dynamic gets so screwed up.


It sure does. But, in my opinion, it takes understanding of BOTH points of view to fix it. It takes her lightening up and not needing to be validated every second. It takes her really understanding the connection that men feel from sex, as well as the rejection that they feel from lack of it. It ALSO takes men understanding that many women need connection FOR sex to take place. They have to come to understand that, since the meaning is different, withholding is not an act of intentional cruelty. It takes recognizing that the boobies belong to ME. They aren't your play things, and my having them out is not intended to tease. Sometimes they are just there.

It does neither any good to get resentful about things that are not intended to be there. 

I really see very little difference, frankly, between sympathy sex and fake it till you can make it. I don't LIKE to give my hubby bjs that much. When I do it, I am not thinking oh baby this is making me so hot. I am thinking, I am so glad I can make him happy. I do it because I love him. Cuz I tell you the taste does nothing to rock my world. How is that different than sympathy sex?


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I really see very little difference, frankly, between sympathy sex and fake it till you can make it. I don't LIKE to give my hubby bjs that much. When I do it, I am not thinking oh baby this is making me so hot. I am thinking, I am so glad I can make him happy. I do it because I love him. Cuz I tell you the taste does nothing to rock my world. How is that different than sympathy sex?


Attitude. Pure and simple.

Said it yourself. You want to make him happy. You love him.

Neither of those figure into the equation of sympathy sex. Sympathy sex is about obligation, guilt, and control.

Fake it til you make it is about making an investment.
You may be hesitant, but you know it will pay dividends. Dividends both in and out of the bedroom.

Sympathy sex is about paying off accrued debt. 
You know you should, but you don't want to and keep putting it off until the pressure or guilt of non-payment catches up. So when you finally do, you don't feel good about it. You resent it.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> It sure as hell doesn't feel like it to the women whose husbands won't consider THEIR PoV but still think it makes sense to be getting some.
> Two way street the husband has a point of view also.
> 
> No all you want FROM ME is sex. How about romance? How about listening to my words and trying to understand them? How about bowling? Discussing parenting? Want me to want you? That's what it takes.
> ...


If when he askes and you say OK if I have to with a sour puss on your face. Then forget it .But if you say sure. do you like this then thats a different story.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

I tell you, when you aren't getting any, pity sex works too you know.

I am not above asking my husband to do something because I need it whether he wants to or not.

At some point, I get frustrated and need something and if I have to ask for it, then I'm going to, I'm not just going to suffer alone.

Maybe this wouldn't work for everyone, but when I need to do it, I do.


----------



## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Wow!:smthumbup: so many diverse replies. Many thanks to you all!
A quick update - both of us went to bed at the same time last night and watched TV...after about 10 minutes my wife said 'good night, gave me a peck, turned her light out and went to sleep.

There was no bad atmosphere...and certainly no sexual atmosphere either. In my heart of hearts I knew she wouldn't 'tickle' me. 

I like and need sex....I so want to be truly intimate with my wife..I love her, I want to make her happy, I want to make her groan with pleasure because of what *I* am doing to her...I remember making a girlfriend many years ago squeal because I was making her feel so good...which in turn made me feel fantastic! Of course I want my wife to want me and to want to give me pleasure because SHE WANTS to...no debts, no I'll only do this if you do that. I guess its called unconditional love, including unconditional sex.

I have my pride...I do not want my wife to have sex with me simply because she feels she ought to because I 'kindly' massaged her back last night...or filled up her car with petrol, or bought her flowers. 
Yes I do all those things willingly because a) I love her b) I want to make her feel good and c) beacuse its part of the marriage 'package'. 
Lots of you say that women like to be cherished, made to be feel wantedm loved etc OUTSIDE of the bedroom....get things right outside the bedroom and things will be right inside the bedroom.

Many of you will also appreciate that you get to the point where you are fed up with having your advances rejected, being accused of only wanting sex, 'putting me under pressure to perform'....so what do you do? Nothing. You don't instigate sex or try to guide a situation towards sex because rejection hurts...you've been hurt so often before the best way not to get hurt is not to instigate. Simple. 
I now need a very clear and definite green light from my wife. 

Had she wanted to take things further the other evening when I was massaging/tickling her back she could have done so easily. My semi erect c*** was under the duvet less than 8 inches from her face....all she had to do was start stroking it (she has never given me oral of any kind)....but no, all she wanted was her back massaged etc. 
I am sure she was relieved that I said I was tired...her comment of 'I'll tickle your willy tomorrow night' was simply an empty gesture to make herself feel better.

Had it been genuine, then last night she could have said something like 'come on darling, I really want to do something to make YOU feel good'....she didn't.

Sorry guys and girls, but I am feeling a bit bitter and pi$$ed off this morning.


----------



## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

Jezza, I have another question for you;
If she doesn't let you touch her boobs, doesn't kiss with the tongue, doesn't do oral, doesn't like sex, why did you marry her? I know that sex isn't everything, but dang, making love is an important part of a marriage. If she's not into *anything*, why stay?
I may sound like a butthead, but if I had a "no sexual contact" order from my wife, we would not be together. I need the love, affection, desire and bonding that goes with making love to my wife.


----------



## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Star....this evening I intend to ask her the following; 'Do you enjoy me making you feel special, loved, cherished, desired'..etc
I am sure her answer will be yes...in which case I will simply reply 'so do I...I wish it happened more often'. 
Whilst I know this isnt a 'direct' approach I think she will get the message....she might then ask why I am asking the question and it will I hope lead to a discussion about our (non existant) sex life. 

DanF - we met 20 years ago and married some 14 years ago. Whilst she was never a rampant rabbit in bed we had sex maybe twice a week. Whilst she certainly wasnt my 'ideal' sexual partner and I wasnt 'happy happy' I certainly wasnt unsatisfied. 
Then children came along and suddenly the children were more important than me (as I think happens in alot of marriages)...sex went out the window...I hoped our sex life would improve as the children got older...it hasn't. 
Because men NEED sex it is constantly on our minds...with women I suspect that once they have had children and fulfilled their 'natural' role in life sex drops off the list. I know thats a bit of a sweeping statement and doesn't apply to all. 
Women can live without sex... Cuddling, hugging, holding hands, being bought flowers, being appreciated is what women like... Men 'like' all of those things too but we also like actual sex...we crave it! 
A marriage is a partnership....mutual respect and mutual participation...a team. I have to accept and respect that my wife won't do oral just as she has to accept that I need and want her sexually...It is quite natural and normal for a healthy male to want to make love to his wife...and vice versa.

Lets see what happens tonight...though one thing is sure; sympathy sex is not on the menu. I'd rather go and 'do it myself'....


----------



## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

Wow, jezza.
When my wife and I first met 30 years ago, we were nuts for each other physically. In our first 5 years of marriage, the only time we didn't have sex is when I was deployed (Navy) or when we were too sore to do again. We did go through periods of less lovemaking and back to more lovemaking as our bodies, jobs, stress, a child, etc moved through our lives. But we never went through a period as dry as your seems to be. I'm not trying to brag, I just don't understand how someone can put lovemaking on such a low back burner.
Read this article - Focus on the Family and see if you can get your wife to read it as well.
It did explain a lot of things about me to me and my wife. Things that I knew, but didn't know how to vocalize.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Bottom line:

If you want her to make meeting your needs more important, the surest way to do so is for you to dial back the importance of meeting hers.

This is not t!t for tat. The point is to set equilibrium. The consequence of bringing things into equilibrium in your case, is that she won't like it ... because the status quo has been you over-compensating while she withdrew. So you will want to lighten up on the making her feel special, loved, cherished, and desired.

Unless of course you enjoy how you are being treated.


----------



## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

DanF - I have just read the article..saved it to Word, enlarged it a bit and printed it! It really IS excellent! Though I think I'm going to be a bit of a chicken and give it to our counsellor to read then give it to my wife....because if it comes from me my wife will simply think 'huh....sex again'....whereas if it comes from our counsellor she might actually read it with an open mind....
Many thanks...really!


----------



## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

Hicks said:


> That's a woman's way of initiating sex.
> She's not going to be as bold as you are.


This is so silly. Women are not all the same and some of us ARE quite bold, with sex drives like 18 year old boys. 
What kind of wife doesn't allow her husband to caress her breasts or kiss her passionately? I would eventually leave my husband if he refused to do these things.
I feel so sorry for the OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Deejo - I HATE it. Have you read the article DanF has suggested above?....it really is spot on. I would be interested to hear what some the lady 'bloggers' on here have to say about it...get a female perspective on it!
So come on ladies!!....have a read (I know its a bit long winded, but go on...!!) - thanks!


----------



## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

jezza said:


> Then children came along and suddenly the children were more important than me (as I think happens in alot of marriages)...sex went out the window...I hoped our sex life would improve as the children got older...it hasn't.
> Because men NEED sex it is constantly on our minds...with women I suspect that once they have had children and fulfilled their 'natural' role in life sex drops off the list.


I certainly dropped my poor husband like a hot rock when our babies were first born. It was not so much that the desire was gone permanently, though I suspect we would have wound up in your spiral if I had not gotten a wake up call. The big question is how to get your wife a wake up call that this is more than just getting laid, that this is REALLY IMPORTANT to you. You are obviously not the only one to have this problem. Yet the stickiest wicket is still how to get that wake up call across. I just don't know. Wish I did.


----------



## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

to the OP, just pull way back (which it sounds like you are), and send the message that you dont need sex, start spending less time on her and her needs. this could be about control on her part. it helped me in a very very similar situation.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Yes, I did read it. Certainly no secret to me. I lived it. Said those words to my ex-wife.

Doesn't matter worth a DAMN ... if your spouse does not feel desire for, or a willingness to please her spouse.

How she feels about her relationship with you is something you do have a tremendous amount of influence over. What you are doing isn't working.

This is why you need the reset. You are over-loving your wife, while tolerating her under-loving you. You're basically rewarding her for putting you last on her list. Stop.

However, from what you have posted, it also sounds rather clear that your wife was never all that sexual in the first place. If twice a week was the high point of your sex life, you will need to decide if that is sufficient for your needs.


----------



## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Sorry for not knowing but what does 'OP' mean???
other Person..??


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

jezza said:


> I have my pride...I do not want my wife to have sex with me simply because she feels she ought to because I 'kindly' massaged her back last night...or filled up her car with petrol, or bought her flowers.


Pride...won't keep you warm at night and won't help you get close to your wife.

Pride...gets in the way and helps keep others at arms length.

Pride...needs to be set aside so that it can be more about "you both" as a husband and wife and less about "you."

Pride...is all about you.

JMHO


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

jezza said:


> Sorry for not knowing but what does 'OP' mean???
> other Person..??


OP = Original Poster, meaning you.


----------



## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

vthomeschoolmom - 'stickiest wicket'....you have to be British!
What was your wake up call?

I think I will give a copy of DanF's Focus on Family to our cousellor to give to my wife....she might actually read it then.

Deejo - thanks! Now I know what OP means! Duh!


----------



## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

jezza said:


> DanF - I have just read the article..saved it to Word, enlarged it a bit and printed it! It really IS excellent! Though I think I'm going to be a bit of a chicken and give it to our counsellor to read then give it to my wife....because if it comes from me my wife will simply think 'huh....sex again'....whereas if it comes from our counsellor she might actually read it with an open mind....
> Many thanks...really!


I'm glad you liked it and I hope it helps.
Anything to help a brother get a little...


----------



## magixz64 (Jan 18, 2011)

I know how you feel, my hubby does that to me often, he will fondle my breasts while in bed and he gets up an leaves to clean the garage or something, leaves me confused and frustrated, we had sex this weekend after a 9 month drought, it sucks!! by the way I wanted to deny the sex just to let him feel how I feel but I was too needy..I was mad at myself later, but in the end I felt a little better.


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jezza said:


> Thanks Deejo!
> However maybe I did miss the 'come on'....I was doing the massaging stuff...the only 'clue' I got was that she took her top off so that I could do her whole back. She just lay there enjoying it and doing absolutely nothing in return.
> 
> Hicks mentioned that maybe she isnt as 'bold' as me....she was lying on me, I was massaging her neck and back, if she did want more she could so easily have started fondling me, but she didn't.
> ...


This is horrible. She knows the effect she is having on you when she ask for a back rub. You have a wife who does not know the full extent of the damage that she does you. She does not understand you as a man, many women do not understand. The statement that "all you think about is sex" has to be countered by you. 

It may help to read information about male sexuality and what men need in marriage to convince you that you are normal. Then, when you speak with your wife and make a plan of action, you are sure that your feelings and reactions are normal and right.

She has to know that she is lucky to have a husband who can still get hard for her. She needs to know that you are absolutely normal. If your wife waved a steak in your face every day while you starved what would your reaction be? 

You would think she was cruel and you would refuse to play her game of taunting you right. I am not saying that she is thinking this concretely but this is how it is from you standpoint. I would put it in the open - expose what is going on to her face. Use what ever analogy you feel would be effective. 

I think no more back rubs should be given for the time being. You need to settle your deep dissatisfaction now. Not to be mean but to give proper honor to what you are going through. This is important, you are not wrong for wanting your wife, she is wrong for not wanting you. You have to point out this reality to her and ask her if she is willing to work on the problem. You don't have to sit around like a starving man having a steak waved in your face


----------



## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Catherine - many thanks for the above. Maybe my wife is one of those people for whom sex is just not important, therefore cannot understand (will not understand) why it is important for me. I truly believe its all about understanding, respect and compromise.

I was going to raise the subject (again) last night but after having spoken to our counsellor last night about the fantastic 'Understanding your Husbands Sexual Needs' that DanF let me in on, we decided that it would be better if our counsellor showed it to my wife...our (female) counsellor isn't 'after sex again'.

I feel very bitter that my wife is pushing me ever closer to being unfaithful...not because I want to but because I am fed up with 'using my right hand'! The thing is, is that I know I would feel very guilty, and angry....and if she ever found out it would be MY fault...nothing to do with her. As so many articles say, men need sex, it is an intergral part of our genetic make up. 

I so hope my wife reads and actually inwardly digests the 'Understanding your Husbands Sexual Needs' article.....


----------



## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

as stated earlier, why dont you ask her if she would mind you seeking sexual fulfillment elsewhere. then she can be happy to not be pressured for sex and your happy getting what you need. i would seriously do this if i was in your shoes


----------



## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

lizzie101 said:


> i totally get you, as i have to beg for sex and when i get it, i feel like it's pity sex, too. we all just want to be wanted. it sucks when you feel like you're not...although, i feel like some kind of freak in here bc i've seen only men complaining about no sex from their women and not the other way around.. guess i'm the only woman with a cold man.


not at all, there are several women on here in the same situation. this is a low drive vs high drive issue, not a gender thing.


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

J Your mention of having your wife read the article made me think of two books that helped my husband and I reconnect. Actually, it helped me understand men and sex in a committed relationship. When we were having problems I avoided sex with my husband. I did not understand the impact on him. These books along with reading post on this and other forums really helped to realize how seriously I hurt him.

"What You Need to Know about the Inner Lives of Men" by Shaunti Christine Feldhahn (Hardcover - Jul 28, 2004) "For Men Only: A Straightforward Guide to the Inner Lives of Women" by Shaunti Feldhahn and Jeff Feldhahn (Hardcover - Apr 3, 2006), I like these books because they are written by a man and woman. I think books by women explaining men are inaccurate in my opinion. 

These really opened my eyes and I pray that it does the same for your wife. You can order on Amazon. I hope you and your wife recover and you don't have to end the marriage. If she cannot connect with you, don't stay. Try your very best but, if after she reads the books and she does not change then you may have to assume that nothing will change her way of thinking. The very best to you


----------



## HelloooNurse (Apr 12, 2010)

I think you have blown this thing way out of proportion.


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

HelloooNurse said:


> I think you have blown this thing way out of proportion.


What do you meant??  Do you think that his emotional distress and mental aguish at not connecting sexually with his wife is no big deal??

Do you think it's "just sex" so it's no big deal? If that's what you think then please don't get married. Sex at frequent enough intervals is vital to the health of the relationship and to the emotional well being of the couple, most especially a man who loves his wife. This is not all about sex, its about the emotional well-being of a human being that makes a very big deal. 

I am not sure what you meant so I may be off base.


----------



## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Catherine - thanks. We are all entitled to our own opinions....however, maybe HelloooNurse is one of the few people (like my wife) for whom sex is simply not important in a relationship. If he/she isn't interested and neither is his/her partner, then its a status quo therefore no problem for them.

I/we are in the vast majority where being in a sexless relationship/marriage IS a problem.


----------



## ARF (Jan 26, 2011)

okeydokie said:


> as stated earlier, why dont you ask her if she would mind you seeking sexual fulfillment elsewhere. then she can be happy to not be pressured for sex and your happy getting what you need. i would seriously do this if i was in your shoes


This is easier for you to say as you are removed from the situation. Remember that this is his wife and he has children with her. Its more about sex in general, rather sex with his wife.

I am in a similar situation as the OP, and this concept isn't even a thought for me.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jezza,
In one sense this has zero to do with sex and certainly nothing to do with "lust". It really is about love and commitment. The point is not that your "W" doesn't think sex is important. 

The entire point - beginning - middle and end is this:
Your "W" is not prioritizing YOUR needs. 

In a healthy marriage - your priorities are by default your partners priorities. Clearly you do lots of stuff because you want to - and you "want to" because it makes your W feel loved. Totally healthy. 

Let me describe a different dynamic. I am the HD partner married to an LD partner. MOST of the sex in our marriage is driven by "my" lust and "her" desire to be a great partner. Of course I have learned how to touch her in a way that slowly gets her in the mood. Because she rarely starts out in the mood. But she "taught" me how to do that because she wants ME to be happy and feel loved. 

And with that dynamic in place the way this works is:
- I can read her really well. When she is tired, sad, anxious or just "off" I make it clear that "sex" is off the table and then go the extra mile to make her feel loved/good. Sometimes that is a massage/back scratch. Others just spooning watching tv.
- When we argue about sex it is most often from each others point of view:
W - What kind of night do you want tonight?
Me - (Realizing that guilt is warring with fatique within her) Lets watch tv and spoon. 
W - It has been months (this is her humor - it never gets past 7 days - and rarely past 5)
Me - I am just exhausted "faux yawn" (me completely extracting the guilt from her) - how about tomorrow darling?

At this point "most" of the time she just says "God I love you". But if she says in a sharp voice "Get undressed" - then all talking stops and we play. 

That said - she fully understands that "in general" sex is not an optional part of marriage. And every once in a while when her drive is especially low, she feels resentful about my higher drive. But that is the "2 percent" the other 98 percent is very positive for both of us. 





jezza said:


> Catherine - thanks. We are all entitled to our own opinions....however, maybe HelloooNurse is one of the few people (like my wife) for whom sex is simply not important in a relationship. If he/she isn't interested and neither is his/her partner, then its a status quo therefore no problem for them.
> 
> I/we are in the vast majority where being in a sexless relationship/marriage IS a problem.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

ARF said:


> This is easier for you to say as you are removed from the situation. Remember that this is his wife and he has children with her. Its more about sex in general, rather sex with his wife.
> 
> I am in a similar situation as the OP, and this concept isn't even a thought for me.


Too bad ... it should be. You're missing the point of how jezza's wife, okey's wife, your wife, and my ex and many, many wives who reject their husband's all perceive the sexual dynamic, whether they have low libido's or not.

Odds are, your wife would be furious if you were to make this request. You are being disrespectful to her and the marriage ...

Right?


But ... she has no intention or desire to have sex with you. Presuming you are attempting to meet her needs, are a good husband, father and provider ... but when you approach her for sex she rejects you ... constantly and consistently.
She is being disrespectful to you and the marriage.

The dynamic is broken.

You can't 'demand' sex ... you look like a whiny 5 year old.

But to continue rewarding your spouse with love, respect, affection and compliance while they ignore you when it comes to intimacy and sex is foolish. It's counter-productive. 

You are reinforcing the notion that you accept and are onboard with how you are being treated.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*actual experience with this*

My W has never sexually starved me in 21 years. That doesn't mean she says "yes" to every request. It does mean that worst case she asks if we can connect tomorrow. That said she IS the LD partner. A few months ago in the heat of an argument she basically said she did not want to continue our sexual relationship. 

I let that sit for 24 hours. Then we went for a long walk without cell phones. Miles from the house I very calmly told her:
- I love you, am committed to you and the marriage
- I don't want you to feel this relentless "pressure" to do something you don't want
- I am not ok being "celibate/near celibate"
- I then explained an option that can only be described as the "lightest" possible version of an open marriage
As expected she:
- Freaked - I got 10 minutes of anger, anxiety and accusations that I was "not" committed. I stayed totally calm and firmly explained this seemed the best option for "her" given where we were. 
- I then got 10-15 minutes of dead silence. Frankly that silence could have lasted an hour or days or if need be weeks. And I would have been ok with that. She knows me. I was done talking, it was time for her to "decide" what SHE wanted. 
- She broke the silence with "I am committed to you and our marriage. I will do whatever it takes to make you happy". 
- I responded in kind. 
- She took me to bed that night and rocked my world (like she usually does). And FWIW I did what I always do - which is make it as much fun for her as possible. 

The following week she aggressively raised this topic a few times. Each time angry/indignant that I could even "consider" what I had suggested. Each time, smiling I replied with: "Darling, we can talk about what "I" said, provided you are willing to discuss "WHY" I said it. "Do you wish to have the entirety of that conversation"? And each time she gave me a devilish smile and changed the subject. 

But I did what I did to preserve our marriage. Because if she went down the path of sexlessness I know with certainty what would happen:
- Every kind/loving gesture I made would be viewed with the unspoken (and toxic) question in her mind. "Is he doing that hoping I will have sex with him"?
- Every unkind act, every argument would be seen as "He is just being a jerk because I am NOT having sex with him"

How can a marriage survive that? It can't. At that point all you have are two people choosing to believe that a piece of paper (marriage certificate) is more important than their happiness, and ultimately their mental and physical health. 

Not on my watch. 



Deejo said:


> Too bad ... it should be. You're missing the point of how jezza's wife, okey's wife, your wife, and my ex and many, many wives who reject their husband's all perceive the sexual dynamic, whether they have low libido's or not.
> 
> Odds are, your wife would be furious if you were to make this request. You are being disrespectful to her and the marriage ...
> 
> ...


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM you did it again -these two post are the best description of the dynamic of a loving relationship between a HD/ LD couple that I have ever read. It describes my relationship with my husband exactly. I am going to print it out to read when I struggle not to let little stupid annoyances get in the way of loving my man. THANK YOU.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM would you be willing to start a thread with these post? I have read so many post from women who are distressed at not being in the mood but love their husband and are asking for help. Perhaps they can adapt their relationship to this. The love is there and the desire to make their husbands happy is there. Those are the two basic eliment the next step is to discuss and explore with their hubby what it would get them warmed up. What do you think?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sure thing. And truly Catherine you are the poster child for a great wife. For someone who was able to get her H to see what she needed while simultaneously working on what he needed. 



Catherine602 said:


> MEM would you be willing to start a thread with these post? I have read so many post from women who are distressed at not being in the mood but love their husband and are asking for help. Perhaps they can adapt their relationship to this. The love is there and the desire to make their husbands happy is there. Those are the two basic eliment the next step is to discuss and explore with their hubby what it would get them warmed up. What do you think?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Wow!! looks like I may have started something here! 
There seems to be lots of wives who simply aren't interested in sex or respect their husbands needs/desires etc....likewise there seem to be alot of husbands (though not as many as wives..!!) who do the same.
Maybe all the sex starved husbands here and all the sex starved wives here should all get together for a big party! Maybe there would be lots of very happy, and exhausted (!!) people there!
Joking aside - for those of us in a sexless marriage, it really isnt a very pleasant place to be atall....there are no 'quick fixes'.

For those of you that are interested and have given me valuable advice and just 'been there', I had a long session with our counsellor yesterday. My wife has her session on Tuesday next week. The counsellor will give her DanF's article to read and talk to her very seriously. No one is perfect...there are things about me that my wife probably doesnt like...maybe her denying me my 'conjugal rights' are a contributory factor..??

Earlier on in this thread a respondent said that my wife taking her t-shirt off was a 'come on'. I'm sure many of you will have heard of a Russian Professor, Pavlov and his experiments with dogs many years ago. Every time he fed his pack of dogs he rang a bell. The dogs began to associate the bell with food. Then he just rang the bell (no sight or smell of food anywhere)...the dogs started salivating and getting all excited....but there was no food. Over time they went back to 'normal' - they got so used to NOT getting food when the bell rang that they lost all interest in the bell. The only time they got excited was when the food was put right under their noses.

Wife lays across me naked (apart from pants) = bell ringing but no food (sex)...The 'bell' now means nothing....the food (sex) has to be put on a plate under my nose! 
I'm starving! I have sexual rickets, beri beri, pelagra etc!!!

I'll update this on Tuesday.... Have a good weekend guys and gals!


----------



## bluesky (Jan 29, 2011)

"I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today"

Here is my take on this.



> She complained of a stiff neck and lay across my chest. I was naked (sleep 'au nature') under the duvet. I started massaging her neck and shoulders


*She did not have a stiff neck. She was obviously initiating sex. She gave the signal, and wanted you to begin initiating. She is uncomfortable with initiating, so the 'stiff neck' is simply an alibi to get things going.*



> ...she took her t-shirt off (NEVER sleeps 'au nature') and asked me to massage and tickle the rest of her back. I did this willingly for about 30 minutes, by which time it was about 2315hrs. I was getting tired (I have to be up at 0700) so told her that I was tired. She got up, looked at me quizzically and asked if I was going to sleep.


*She was shocked that you did not want to initiate sex.*



> 'Yes, I'm tired'...I gave her a 'peck' (she refuses to french kiss)...and turned over. As I turned over she said "I'll tickle your willy tomorrow evening"....


*She knew you were hoping for a BJ, but she did not want to give a BJ. She did not want you to feel disappointed, so she offered a consolation prize. You and I both know that sex TOMORROW is totally meaningless for us. Woman don't think the same as we do.*



> I ignored the comment. A minute later she asked if I was going to reply....so I did; "If the only reason you have offered to 'tickle my willy' is because I have tickled and massaged your back tonight, then I'm not interested". She made no comment.


*This is a positive sign. It means that she is concerned about your feelings. However, at this stage of your relationship there are intimacy issues. I understand your response. However, this will never resolve the problem. The issue is much deeper than individual cuddle sessions. *



> Had she wanted to do something back to me whilst I was doing her back, she had ample opportunity to 'tickle my willy'....


.

*Us men want rewards for doing things. A long back rub should result in a BJ for us. For woman, a long back rub means something different. They want to know that we care enough to make them feel good WITHOUT having to reward us.
A different approach may be....OFFERING to do something with ZERO expectations.*

*The biggest concern/symptom is the lack of kissing. 
French kissing is MORE intimate than sex. 
The fact that your wife does NOT want to do this is a very serious issue. 
The lack of sex is a BYPRODUCT of the core issues. Once you identify and work on this core problem....the intimacy will return.....and a healthy sex life will be the byproduct.*

Without knowing all of your background, I may be completely off base.
I can completely relate to the lack of kissing and sex.
I saw the progression of that....which eventually led to her having an affair.
This is serious stuff here.
It can lead to bad **** if not addressed.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Too bad ... it should be. You're missing the point of how jezza's wife, okey's wife, your wife, and my ex and many, many wives who reject their husband's all perceive the sexual dynamic, whether they have low libido's or not.
> 
> Odds are, your wife would be furious if you were to make this request. You are being disrespectful to her and the marriage ...
> 
> ...


Hmm. Good points. When my x wife started to not want sex, I guess I withdrew and became cold when it came to the hand holding and cuddling and all the emotional stuff she wanted. I voiced my opinion that i thought sex was a normal part of a marriage, but she just wanted to act as though i were a sex maniac for wanting it on a regular basis. She didn't think sex was important to a marriage if one didn't want it. I guess i coulod have continued being cuddly in hopes she would change, but as you say, it would probably been counter productive.


----------



## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Terrible situation. Why do people do this? Your sexual feelings were being deliberately ignored in favor of her "back rub". Why does she feel entitled to non sexual contact from you when she refuses to give you any contact of a sexual nature.

This is a 2 way street. If men have to be in tune to a womans emotional needs women have to be in tune with a mans sexual needs. Otherwise the relationship is one sided and unfair.


----------



## bluesky (Jan 29, 2011)

I disagree.

We can't expect sex from a neck rub.

Woman are not BJ queens...the moment we rub the back of their hair ....that they should just suck us off.

I know that I am guilty of feeling this way...but it does not make it right.


----------



## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Bluesky...In all the 20 years I have known my wife she has NEVER gone anywhere near my bits with her mouth....so forget the BJ theory!
I am about to start a new thread 'Tomorrow night then'....Please read it.
Many good things come out of TAM...people can seek a second opinion, advice or simply let out their frustrations....thank-goodness!


----------



## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

bluesky said:


> I disagree.
> 
> We can't expect sex from a neck rub.
> 
> ...


No, in practice it's impractical and unlikely. But there's nothing wrong about having the desire. That's a problem in a lot of marriages, where the HD partner is made to feel guilty for their desires by the LD partner. Sure, she might not "do that" (which would actually make her abnormal by today's standards) but there's nothing wrong with you WANTING her to do it. A lot.


----------

