# I should not have sex. Should you??



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

this topic was brought up in another thread and I didn't want to threadjack it any more than it already was)

I was mid teens-mid 20s during the 1980s and married in the mid '90s in my early 30s. By today's standards, I should not have had sex. 

If I ever made it to an honest 6' tall it would have been in my mid-upper 20s before spinal compression started, my state-issued ID lists me officially at 5'11. I was of average looks, and while I was lean (skinny actually until my mid 20s) but never true 6-pack abz. And I have always had an average to a little above average income. 

My circle of friends were all of similar height, looks, body composition and incomes. 

Yet for some reason, we all managed to date, maintain relationships and have sex :-O 

By today's internet standards, I should be an INCEL in my mom's basement playing video games with my INCEL and MGTOW buddies but yet we all have homes and families etc. 

At best I should be a Simp or beta provider at best but yet throughout my years I have been in the company of some beautiful and sexy women. At times I have had a sex life that would make porn stars envious. 

How is that? How can that be? Ok OK that was sarcasm. But here is an honest question - Did I and millions of other ordinary average guys get lucky that we cut our teeth in the '80s where people had to actually leave the house and engage in real life with real people (including, 'gulp', girls! :-O )? 

Or are these simps, betas, INCELs, MGTOWs and other basement dwellers using internet lore on women's standards as an excuse to keep playing their video games and living on Hot Pockets?

And a more pertinent question for me personally and those other ordinary, average guys like me - Have we exceeded our window of opportunity from back in the day were social and interpersonal interaction actually mattered and we would be set up for doom and failure on the dating market today where 6' tall and 6-figure income with visable abz are practically a mandatory minimum requirement? 

In other words is internet lore on women's standards bunk and an average guy still has a chance? Or has the internet influenced people's expectations and standards to the point that a sub-6 foot, high 5-figure income male with no abz truly out of the market today? 

Is there anyone else here that should not be having sex or relationships?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I was a nerd back then, and an undistinguished physical specimen. I had little difficulty dating, however, because I wanted to and wasn't afraid to try. I even had attractive dates! And it was even easier dating after leaving my first wife (whom I met in college), perhaps because I was less nerdy by then (around 1999-2001). These days, I see mostly average guys of all ages dating and/or married, just like in the 70s and 80s. Of course, I don't see the guys living in the basement, since I don't frequent any basements. I can't evaluate their issues beyond what I read online.

Anyway, "should" does not enter into it. It's only doing that matters, and that begins with trying.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> this topic was brought up in another thread and I didn't want to threadjack it any more than it already was)
> 
> I was mid teens-mid 20s during the 1980s and married in the mid '90s in my early 30s. By today's standards, I should not have had sex.
> 
> ...


I think you've hit exactly on it!

Sh!t. The 80s were great. We must be about the same age.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

There's a butt for every seat. I think most people have a general idea of what they are looking for, men or women. Here's another side to the coin. One of my college workout buddies had a strange issue. He was in very good shape, we were working 12 pack abs none of these pedestrian 6 packs. Problem he had was his type was a girl with much more meat on her bones so to speak. He often ran into women thinking he was too in shape and since they were not they were uncomfortable with him being ripped. My guess is they assumed he was into them for some fetish or something, when in reality for whatever reason he just liked bigger girls.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I think you are over generalising to extremes. We all have different tastes in what we like in the opposite sex and the majority of relationships still start away from the internet. Even if we meet on line we can meet up very quickly and people of all shapes and sizes still date and get married.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

I was a teenager in the 90's. I kept in touch (through Facebook) with a lot of men who I met when I was in my teens. It's funny but the majority of them were average in looks and height and none of them have had problems finding girlfriends or wives. 

I have never had problems dating. Even though I'm short and went to an all girls catholic school. I didn't consider myself a beauty queen, but I found myself cute enough to attract the opposite sex. I was interested in short or tall men. I really didn't care that much about height. What I really cared about was how good the guy was to me.

My husband is taller than most of his friends but again, none of them have had problems dating or getting married. They make more money than us but they didn't make a lot while dating or when they just got married. I'm sure their wives didn't choose them for their looks or money.

Personally, we don't know any middle aged men living in their mom's basement. Lol!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I think you are over generalising to extremes. We all have different tastes in what we like in the opposite sex and the majority of relationships still start away from the internet. Even if we meet on line we can meet up very quickly and people of all shapes and sizes still date and get married.


Ok but the internet is becoming a bigger and bigger driving force of social and cultural standards.

Relationships may get their foothold off line but much of the initial contact is made online today.

How many female dating profiles/apps begin with, “ if you are not at least 6 feet tall or make 6 figures, do not contact me!”


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> How many female dating profiles/apps begin with, “ if you are not at least 6 feet tall or make 6 figures, do not contact me!”


is this true? Women actually say that? Wow. Shallow much?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Spicy said:


> is this true? Women actually say that? Wow. Shallow much?


Everyone has the right to their own preferences and criteria.

Women can get bombarded with literally hundreds of hits, emails and messages a day on OLD, so they basically have to set some parameters. I get that.

But what I find ironic is throughout my late teens - early 30s, I dated, had a few LTRs, had married women swinging by my house after work and on their way to the store for hook ups and then spent my 40s in the swinging lifestyle,, but yet I literally have NONE of the traits and characteristics that the internet says women have to have in order to date or hook up.


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

I quit online dating years ago when it became clear to me that either I attracted the damaged ones, or, there are so many on there that are desensitised from doing so much dating, it made it difficult to have a 'fresh' start. 

Last 2 relationships (current one included) began by chance encounters in real life. You know, 'old school'!

The more people veer away from the internet for dating the better, although I realise there are exceptions.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> But what I find ironic is throughout my late teens - early 30s, I dated, had a few LTRs, had married women swinging by my house after work and on their way to the store for hook ups and then spent my 40s in the swinging lifestyle,, but yet I literally have NONE of the traits and characteristics that the internet says women have to have in order to date or hook up.


As noted above, I have virtually NONE of the traits and characteristics that the internet, Red Pill, women’s dating profiles and the Manosphere in general say that women require in order to have attraction and desire. 

Now fortunately I have 50+ years of life experience and wisdom, of which 35+ years were without the internet at all, so I do have at least some perspective on how male-female attractions and relationships work. 

But I have concern for the young men and women reaching adulthood today that have grown up with the internet and current dating and sexual lore.

I think a lot of these average looking, 5’10” young men going into trades and technical fields will truly believe that they are simply out of the market and don’t stand a chance.

And I think some of these young women really do believe that they will marry a dashingly handsome, tan, 6’4” professional with multiple degrees making $250k with rock solid 6-pack abz - even though they themselves are overweight, dropped out of community college, work at Walmart, are drunk half the time, have daddy issues and have already screwed half the town looking for Mr Big. 

The question i have now is do both young men and women have unrealistic expectations and distorted view of male-female interaction??

Or is this the new reality and ‘Boomers like me just haven’t caught up to the new reality yet and I am the one with unrealistic expectations in thinking that I may still have a chance even though I don’t meet the current requirements????


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Spicy said:


> is this true? Women actually say that? Wow. Shallow much?


I agree, but I dont think its that many women to be honest.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> As noted above, I have virtually NONE of the traits and characteristics that the internet, Red Pill, women’s dating profiles and the Manosphere in general say that women require in order to have attraction and desire.
> 
> Now fortunately I have 50+ years of life experience and wisdom, of which 35+ years were without the internet at all, so I do have at least some perspective on how male-female attractions and relationships work.
> 
> ...


To be fair I am sure that some young men think they are going to marry a women who looks like the porn stars they see daily. Thankfully most people I think are more sensible and realistic.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I was just talking to my cousin about online dating yesterday. I don't think I would use it myself if I found myself alone at this age and she didn't have anything good to say about her experience on it.

I have never had issues in real life attracting women of all body types and heights.

I seriously doubt that a lot of the 6' requirement online ladies would hesitate long to give me a shot if they could talk to me in person even though I am shy of the magical height by 2".

My earnings are none of their damn business. It strikes me as idiotic that they want that information. I have also never been asked in real life about my finances. I'm sure I have been overlooked a time or three because I wasn't in the right social circles or income brackets but I wouldn't want anything to do with women that lame anyway.

I do believe online dating and the internet in general has been a bad influence on perceptions and expectations.

I have seen some of this IRL over the years as well.

One of my sisters in law was having a conversation with us about what she wanted in a man( she had dated sporadically and has been single for years to this day) and she gave a list of attributes that added up to me only taller! LoL!

She has been obese for years and makes continually poor life decisions. Unrealistic expectations?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> How many female dating profiles/apps begin with, “ if you are not at least 6 feet tall or make 6 figures, do not contact me!”


I mean really this is probably for the better of society. Better genetics in general plus only people who can easily afford to raise a family will end up doing so. Once we perfect genetic engineering we can all agree to allow the short funny looking people to reproduce, maybe there should be some kind of income/net worth requirement for doing so though.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I mean really this is probably for the better of society. Better genetics in general plus only people who can easily afford to raise a family will end up doing so. Once we perfect genetic engineering we can all agree to allow the short funny looking people to reproduce, maybe there should be some kind of income/net worth requirement for doing so though.


LoL!


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

I can't imagine writing something so shallow on my dating profile. I might write that I want a guy who can support himself and that I don't need him to support me but I have no desire to support him. 

As for who should be having sex...maybe I shouldn't. I'm a bit overweight. Even more so now that my doc can't seem to get my asthma controlled so I can't exercise. But I'm with a guy whose also got a bit to lose too. And by overlooking that about each other we have managed to have a wonderful relationship and yes, some awesome sex, ok...a lot of awesome sex.. I see woman making these laundry lists of what they want their next guy to be like...my list is nof very long...funny, considerate, free of addiction, and wants to be with someone like me. I got that and SO much more.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> To be fair I am sure that some young men think they are going to marry a women who looks like the porn stars they see daily. Thankfully most people I think are more sensible and realistic.


This is true. However most boys/young men are put in their place really fast and tend to be aware of their leagues. 

I knew the first day of my freshman year that I would not be getting with the homecoming queen. 

What’s make things a little different for men is that typically as they mature and develop, their market value often increases

By my senior year in high school, I still didn’t have a realistic chance with the actual homecoming queen, but I did with some of the others in her court 😉 

As men develop and become more successful and more socially adept, they often can get with those that look like porn stars. If a man in his 40s is in good shape, has good social skills and a profitable career, it is not unusual for men of that stature to get with women in their 20s. 

Women have different assets and challenges.

A pretty women in her early 20s can get with virtually any man from upper teens to one foot in the grave. 

What skews women’s expectations is a woman that doesn’t smell bad and isn’t morbidly obese can get virtually any man into bed, but that doesn’t mean that he would commit to her or marry her or even date her. 

The overweight, uneducated, minimum wage trainwreck can hook up with the tall, good looking professional executive, but that doesn’t mean he will call the next day.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> this topic was brought up in another thread and I didn't want to threadjack it any more than it already was)
> 
> I was mid teens-mid 20s during the 1980s and married in the mid '90s in my early 30s. By today's standards, I should not have had sex.
> 
> ...


I think at least part of the mindset comes from what people learn on internet dating, which for most people seems to be a pretty negative environment.

But I really believe that it's anxiety and refusal to get out and be social and get out in the world that is at the bottom of the problem with the fearful guys who have given up before they started. It's just too easy to stay in your room these days and not face any challenges or discomfort.

But I spent a long time on another forum and it was constant griping about online dating by everyone pretty much. And of course there are many nuances to that. First and foremost is that hardly anyone is being realistic about who they can get and that most are shooting for the Moon and getting shot down.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

happyhusband0005 said:


> There's a butt for every seat. I think most people have a general idea of what they are looking for, men or women. Here's another side to the coin. One of my college workout buddies had a strange issue. He was in very good shape, we were working 12 pack abs none of these pedestrian 6 packs. Problem he had was his type was a girl with much more meat on her bones so to speak. He often ran into women thinking he was too in shape and since they were not they were uncomfortable with him being ripped. *My guess is they assumed he was into them for some fetish or something*, when in reality for whatever reason he just liked bigger girls.


THIS actually makes perfect sense to ME...and I bolded what I think you don't understand -- I think it was most likely that those women weren't comfortable with him because he was intimidating to them. They most likely couldn't understand WHY he was attracted to them, and felt like it was too great a risk that he would only use them and move on to someone else "better". Also, they may have felt that because he could pick women who were more attractive (in their minds) than they were, they didn't feel like he would see them as special. Not all women want men who have "high market value", or whatever term is used on this site from time to time to describe men who are highly sought after by other women. Some women LIKE feeling safe and secure. For some women, that's the basis of TRUST in the man they choose.

I would NEVER consider being with a man I believed was "out of my league"...I don't want to feel intimidated - I want to feel comfortable to be myself with whomever I am with, and I want to feel treasured for the person I am.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I did pretty well with women over my life ...Attitude and natural mesomorph body type sure helped...

The mostly female driven "experiment" over the last several decades to remove "traditional" male characteristics from male children has failed miserably-and continues to flop......Most of these guys wind up not being able to get out of their own way with women...Add to that the absolute explosion of autism among male children in the last few decades and you have a terrible mix going there.....with none of it appealing on any level...

I actually thought about all this today, as I spent the entire day fixing up and maintaining my house...Minor plumbing job, small electrical fix, some small roof repairs, etc....Add to that the fact that I can just about repair anything mechanical under the sun...Cars, trucks, boats, you name it....And I am really not a unicorn in this respect...Many of my contemporaries are equally adept...try to get any guy under 30 to even replace a headlight bulb in his car....Most can't.. Forget the other stuff...they wouldn't even know where to start....

Point is these are traits most women find very attractive...Maybe the younger ones don't but I haven't heard any of that...heck even if one were capable of hiring and paying someone(I am), its still way more appealing when one has that capability...You are a slave to no one at that point...Fits perfectly with the whole idea of "protector: that women all like to bang on about...

Also bear this in mind...natural levels of testosterone in males has fallen so sharply over the last few decades with some reporting levels in younger men actually less than their fathers and even grandfathers... If you think women can't pick up on that you aren't paying attention...Of course they can...Researchers are kind of stumped as to the reasons why.. I guess now you know why you hear all these stories here and other places of relatively young guys that can't get or keep erections...I never knew how much of a problem it really was until stumbling on forums like these...Wow...is about all I can say...

Meh...at the end of the day, it's their Frankenstein experiment that failed...Let em live with it at this point...I wish them all well...Makes no difference to me, really...But if I had a son instead of a daughter, I can tell you for sure he wouldn't be fed all that crap...


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

LisaDiane said:


> I would NEVER consider being with a man I believed was "out of my league"...I don't want to feel intimidated - I want to feel comfortable to be myself with whomever I am with, and I want to feel treasured for the person I am.


I'm an average looking guy, always at least a little overweight. It always surprised me how many beautiful girls paid attention to me. One of them was a finalist in our state's beauty contest. Not every girl I dated was a beauty queen, but a lot of them were very attractive. To be honest, I did wonder what they saw in me considering how many guys they could have had, but I quit asking and just enjoyed the ride. Not every woman is looking for a six pack, thankfully.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> THIS actually makes perfect sense to ME...and I bolded what I think you don't understand -- I think it was most likely that those women weren't comfortable with him because he was intimidating to them. They most likely couldn't understand WHY he was attracted to them, and felt like it was too great a risk that he would only use them and move on to someone else "better". Also, they may have felt that because he could pick women who were more attractive (in their minds) than they were, they didn't feel like he would see them as special. Not all women want men who have "high market value", or whatever term is used on this site from time to time to describe men who are highly sought after by other women. Some women LIKE feeling safe and secure. For some women, that's the basis of TRUST in the man they choose.
> 
> I would NEVER consider being with a man I believed was "out of my league"...I don't want to feel intimidated - I want to feel comfortable to be myself with whomever I am with, and I want to feel treasured for the person I am.


No I understand that, I have been witness to guys targeting girls below their league thinking it would be an easier hookup, so I can understand why they doubted his intentions. I will say he has stuck with his same type and ended up marrying a bigger girl. They run a MMA and Crossfit gym now and have 5 kids. The first time I met her I knew he was going to marry her. 

Another point of this that is unfortunate is there are probably a lot of guys like my friend who don't go after the type they are most attracted to because they fear being judged by other guys because the women they date are not the societal standard of beauty.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

hamadryad said:


> I did pretty well with women over my life ...Attitude and natural mesomorph body type sure helped...
> 
> The mostly female driven "experiment" over the last several decades to remove "traditional" male characteristics from male children has failed miserably-and continues to flop......Most of these guys wind up not being able to get out of their own way with women...Add to that the absolute explosion of autism among male children in the last few decades and you have a terrible mix going there.....with none of it appealing on any level...
> 
> ...


I agree with much of what you say here. I will point out the the decrease in testosterone levels is not observed only in the younger guys. Study's have shown that the average 60 year old today has 17% lower testosterone levels than a 60 year old 30 years ago. My guess is this phenomenon is created by nutritional issues. Our mass market food supply is total crap today. So much processed junk most meats are grown with obscene amounts of hormones. 

It's been proven pretty clearly that the attempts to reduce masculinity don't work. People trying to raise boys who like to play with dolls instead of trucks as an example frustrate the people attempting this because more often than not the boy doesn't want to play with the doll. 

I would be interested to see some kind of comprehensive study of men who grew up without a strong male role model and how they differ personality wise from men who did. I think of my son, he hates the rare occasion I miss a lacrosse game. Why, because he is an aggressive defender he's big and he likes to set the mood as he calls it by taking a penalty with a huge hit at the beginning of the game so the attackers don't want to run across the middle knowing he might hit them so hard they end up with their helmets on backwards. Mom doesn't like it and will tell him he's too aggressive, I tell him it was a good hit but why did you let the kid get back on his feet, the offense still had the ball. Yes I was very happy when he quit baseball to play lacrosse.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

The internet is full of crap, news at 11.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Spicy said:


> is this true? Women actually say that? Wow. Shallow much?


This is a wonderful disclaimer and every guy should be thanking her for her honesty. Even the well off tall ones.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Or are these simps, betas, INCELs, MGTOWs and other basement dwellers using internet lore on women's standards as an excuse to keep playing their video games and living on Hot Pockets?
> 
> And a more pertinent question for me personally and those other ordinary, average guys like me - Have we exceeded our window of opportunity from back in the day were social and interpersonal interaction actually mattered and we would be set up for doom and failure on the dating market today where 6' tall and 6-figure income with visable abz are practically a mandatory minimum requirement?
> 
> ...


Sorry about starting off so metaphysical, but I want to build to a point.

What is reality? How do we understand it? The best route to understand reality is to model it. So in your question the reality we want to address is inter-sex mating issues. So what is the very simplest model we can construct. Well, there are 4 billion women on this planet and there are 4 billion men (ignore the rounding errors and death rates, etc) so this means that there are 4 billion matched pairs that we can create. Does that model look anything like the world we see? Nope. It though does have one essential truth - the matching process.

Clearly we need more sophistication and layers in a new model. I'm not going to describe the building up process via layers, suffice it to say, that family formation desires, sexual desire, personality matching, pressure from the biological clock, gender imbalances in specific locales, educational, religious and SES factors kick in, etc. The more layers we add the closer the model comes to reflecting reality.

Now to the crux of your question - what the hell has changed over time? Women's attitudes towards sex and towards promiscuity. We're now in a new era. It used to be rare for the average young woman to have a higher partner count than her male sexual partner. Now we're seeing that trend reverse. 

It's always, back to the dawn of humanity, been very easy for women to get sex. In the era before effective birth control, any woman who acted on her urge to get some strange ran the risk of pregnancy. Also, when men guarded their women, a woman would face risk of personal harm or death if she acted on her urge to get some strange. So, external male controls over women have declined, no more fathers and brothers and husbands keeping women on a leash. This didn't mean that cultural controls were abolished Church, community, gossip, peer pressure held women to standards. Keep in mind that we're still in the pre-pill era, so fear of pregnancy also served as a brake on desire. Now comes the Pill. That innovation removes fear of pregnancy from the equation, but we're still left with cultural messaging. It's this cultural messaging which has been under steady attack for more than half a century which is the cause of the reality we see before us today.

Why is it that the hippy counter-culture of free love looks tame by today's standards? That era still had women with lower notch counts than men, more female virgins at young adulthood than male virgins. The hippies were a counter-culture, the vast bulk of the culture didn't subscribe to free love dogma. Then came the coked-up disco era of the 70s and 80s. Freer and looser sexual mores were gaining ground. That was the era of the Moral Majority, there was pushback. there were the sex-ed wars, the abstinence movement, etc. That was a last ditch effort to reverse the trends and it failed. Now the roadblocks were removed. The 90s saw the beginning of a real push focused, not on sexual liberalization (that war had been won), but on female sexual empowerment. This is the key to answering your question. ****-shaming used to be a MAJOR social restraint that women used to control the behavior of their peers. There has been a long war to stigmatize ****-shaming behavior. So, another social tool is removed from the tool box. Now into the new century came the glamorization of slutty behavior, hello Sex in the City, developed by a gay man (LOL).

Promiscuity was repackaged as something glamorous and essential to female personal growth and enlightened state of beingness. This messaging was, of course, filtered down to women and girls of younger ages. So now we're at the stage were physical restraints on female sexuality have long ago been removed, the fear of pregnancy has been removed, and the last bulwark, the social constraints have been so seriously eroded that the war is almost complete and now even young girls know what their life script MUST be.

So let's go back to that very simple model - 4 billion women + 4 billion men = 4 billion couples. Clearly there is something faulty with this model. The core fault is the assumption that there is only a single matching event. This has never been the case. We know from genetic studies that of all the women that have ever lived on this planet that about 80% of them reproduced, we also know that of all of the men who have ever lived on this planet that only about 40% of them have reproduced. Clearly, what falls out from the data is that some men mated with multiple women and other men mated with none, they were genetic dead-ends. That process has played out across time and is simply amplified to historically unprecedented levels today, in the era when all checks on female sexual behavior have been removed. Women are in the drivers seat like never before.

So what is going on in the mating market today that didn't play out as strongly in your youth? This matching game. When you were a young buck there still existed some social controls on female sexual behavior. Women were not wholeheartedly embracing promiscuity as a path towards a higher state of enlightenment. You, as an average dude, had sex with plenty of women. That was also an era when the marriage rate was higher, meaning a lot of men and women were off the market. Correct me if my memory is faulty, but I read some of your posts about your exploits as a player and I believe you mentioned your notch count as below a hundred. There are HS and college girls today who've surpassed you and even more who are on pace, corrected for their age, to pass you by a generous margin. This also means that there are men out there today who are swimming in a sea of poon-tang, beyond the wildest dreams of the players of an earlier era.

So that simplistic one-to-one matching model doesn't work because the key issue at play is how the distribution is shaped. If some dudes get a notch count in the thousands, that's going to leave other dudes as virgins. As more women chase a night with an Alpha, their own notch counts increase (and they become less desirable to certain types of men) and so we see the rise of a new era - women are the more sexually experienced sex, have higher partner counts, the rise of retroactive jealousy within more men, greater pressure for women to lie about their histories and other new social problems which impact the mating market.

It's the distribution element which has changed since your day. For a woman who wants sex, all she needs do is say "yes." A man who wants sex has to work to get it. When you were young, you worked, but you faced more women who were not as eager to accept. Internet dating profiles changed two things, women's own sense of sexual worth and their standards for acceptable men. When you dated, the woman were restricted to a smaller pool of men, so you (no offense) were the best on offer from a limited pool. The mega-player faced the same constraint as you, he too had a limited pool of women, just those in his immediate environment, say that one nightclub. Today's mega-player has FWB arrangements, booty calls, tinder dates for multiple trysts PER DAY. He's taking women out of circulation leaving more guys high and dry. All a woman has to do is say yes. Tinder inboxes show the disparity plain as day.

The key take-away point is the new phenomenon of a larger share of women being more experienced than their men. To get that experience means that they had to be with other men. That other man category is not uniformly distributed, instead it favors the men that women are drawn to and want to lock down via access to them sexually. Then the women get kicked to the curb, rinse and repeat with the same type of guy, then they lower their sights and bless a guy with their favor and he takes them off the market.

https://external-preview.redd.it/bY...bp&s=f0520af2d1d5572e2c6f72a41f3223ef9aa158a3

Here's a bit of data to support my arguments.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> this topic was brought up in another thread and I didn't want to threadjack it any more than it already was)
> 
> I was mid teens-mid 20s during the 1980s and married in the mid '90s in my early 30s. By today's standards, I should not have had sex.
> 
> ...


Your post presents as a weird mix, the nature of your commentary changes over the course of your writing. Just as in the other thread, it's quite easy to spot your original motivation - you're a better man today, and in your youth, than the sissyboys of today, if only they would man up and be like you, then all of their problems would vanish. Then, later in your comment, you move away from your ego and ask some serious questions, coming across as though you actually do wonder if there is something more at play than today's dudes being losers and incels and basement dwellers.

I prefer the more serious side of your personality than the ****-swinging side. Just my 2 cents.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Ok but the internet is becoming a bigger and bigger driving force of social and cultural standards.
> 
> Relationships may get their foothold off line but much of the initial contact is made online today.
> 
> How many female dating profiles/apps begin with, “ if you are not at least 6 feet tall or make 6 figures, do not contact me!”


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Spicy said:


> is this true? Women actually say that? Wow. Shallow much?


There's actually a funny meme out there where a young woman proudly proclaimed that she's a socialist in her dating profile and then said she wasn't interested in responses from any men earning less than $100,000 and less than 6' tall.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Everyone has the right to their own preferences and criteria.
> 
> Women can get bombarded with literally hundreds of hits, emails and messages a day on OLD, so they basically have to set some parameters. I get that.
> 
> But what I find ironic is throughout my late teens - early 30s, I dated, had a few LTRs, had married women swinging by my house after work and on their way to the store for hook ups and then spent my 40s in the swinging lifestyle,, but yet I literally have NONE of the traits and characteristics that the internet says women have to have in order to date or hook up.


You're sounding a lot like the "Old Economy Steve" memes.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> I agree, but I dont think its that many women to be honest.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> My earnings are none of their damn business. It strikes me as idiotic that they want that information. I have also never been asked in real life about my finances. I'm sure I have been overlooked a time or three because I wasn't in the right social circles or income brackets but I wouldn't want anything to do with women that lame anyway.


Here's the thing though, you don't have the power to change the marketplace dynamic, it's the woman who has the power. What you're doing is throwing a fit, taking your marbles, and not playing. There are plenty of other guys who will step up and who meet her criteria and they will engage with her. 

She meets any of those guys, verifies them, dates for a bit, then bed her, then they ghost her and move on to the next woman who has those criteria.

Women don't like the process because they get used. Guys like you don't like the process because you don't want to jump through HER unrealistic hoops. The guys who will jump through her unrealistic hoops will get access to her, use her for sex, and they are, unsurprisingly, quite fine with this game.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

women have always been selective.
pre internet days women hunted for husbands at school, work, introductions
through family, relatives, friends, neighbors. So the pool of men to choose from was
limited.

internet days women are overloaded with requests from men wanting to date
them. women today are just as selective as in the past. however they do not
have to settle as quickly in the past before the internet. 

so as a man's height goes down, his career status is average or less,
income is average or less, looks are average or less he finds himself
getting passed over by the average women. 

now joe average realizes he most likely was not going to get a 10, but
finds himself getting passed over by average women.

the reason women are now having more sex than men is that the top
half of the women are trying to land a better than average man. so it has
become harder for an average man to get laid. then a double death blow
to the men that have no social skills and shy.

as their 30's approach the most of the highly rated men have been
married lowering the quality of the men in the dating pool. this is
when women that are still single start to lower their standards.

Natural for these women to have higher numbers of sex partners
then their husbands because dating was a lot harder for these men
during their 20's.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

notmyjamie said:


> I can't imagine writing something so shallow on my dating profile. I might write that I want a guy who can support himself and that I don't need him to support me but I have no desire to support him.
> 
> As for who should be having sex...maybe I shouldn't. I'm a bit overweight. Even more so now that my doc can't seem to get my asthma controlled so I can't exercise. But I'm with a guy whose also got a bit to lose too. And by overlooking that about each other we have managed to have a wonderful relationship and yes, some awesome sex, ok...a lot of awesome sex.. I see woman making these laundry lists of what they want their next guy to be like...my list is nof very long...funny, considerate, free of addiction, and wants to be with someone like me. I got that and SO much more.


This reminds me of a reddit story from a while back. The husband wanted to help boost his wife's self-esteem, she was quite down about herself of late, so the idiot suggested that they put up Tinder profiles, so that she could see that she was a desirable woman. You can probably already see where this is going to go. They did put up profiles. Her inbox was flooded with male interest. She felt really good about herself. Then she wanted an open marriage . . . . .


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Lance Mannion said:


> Here's the thing though, you don't have the power to change the marketplace dynamic, it's the woman who has the power. What you're doing is throwing a fit, taking your marbles, and not playing. There are plenty of other guys who will step up and who meet her criteria and they will engage with her.
> 
> She meets any of those guys, verifies them, dates for a bit, then bed her, then they ghost her and move on to the next woman who has those criteria.
> 
> Women don't like the process because they get used. Guys like you don't like the process because you don't want to jump through HER unrealistic hoops. The guys who will jump through her unrealistic hoops will get access to her, use her for sex, and they are, unsurprisingly, quite fine with this game.


Well. Your assessment of my "fit" throwing is somewhat off and I stand by my statement.

A woman stupid enough to demand your financial portfolio shouldn't be surprised if she gets treated like the woman for hire that she is.


You're actually very dated with your research.

I could have landed a couple of very well to do women. One became a highly successful business owner by developing her own beauty products and I could have easily become a kept man of a multiple millionairess.

I know you will probably keep repeating the formula you are espousing while dismissing everything contrary to your view as fringe but I lived a far different reality than your formula.

Keep your formula for a security blanket if you must but reality behaves as it will.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> I actually thought about all this today, as I spent the entire day fixing up and maintaining my house...Minor plumbing job, small electrical fix, some small roof repairs, etc....Add to that the fact that I can just about repair anything mechanical under the sun...Cars, trucks, boats, you name it....And I am really not a unicorn in this respect...Many of my contemporaries are equally adept...try to get any guy under 30 to even replace a headlight bulb in his car....Most can't.. Forget the other stuff...they wouldn't even know where to start....


I think that this is an accurate representation but I also think that you're missing a key issue. This complaint applies broadly to almost all criticism of millennials - the faults that are being highlighted almost always come back to the generation who raised those millennials to be as they are. Their fathers didn't take them out and show them how to work on a car or reroof their house, instead those fathers were browbeaten by their feminist wives and bought their sons some dolls to play with and kept up that type of parenting for years thereafter.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

lance, not surprised she got way more hits than her BF.
important fact left out was the level of attractiveness the 
women were that clicked onto her BF page.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Well. Your assessment of my "fit" throwing is somewhat off and I stand by my statement.
> 
> A woman stupid enough to demand your financial portfolio shouldn't be surprised if she gets treated like the woman for hire that she is.
> 
> ...


there are always exceptions to the rule. however reality produces
the numbers that set the rules.

there are women that crass to ask income, and those men that think
that is the way to get a woman. so sad for the both of them.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> Is there anyone else here that should not be having sex or relationships?


Well given that kind of nonsense, my 20 year old full-time (high academic achieving) university student son shouldn't be getting any.

Since he is 5'6", frequently has no income, is still on his learners license circa 30 hours out of 120 hours to go. Plus more notably he has a slight speech impediment, is probably autistic (like his diagnosed younger sister) and is at the very least somewhat quirky.

He is also a keen gamer (mostly console stuff)

That said he does have things going for him, in that he has movie star good looks (he really is especially handsome), he is also very clever, somewhat witty and isn't afraid to put himself out there. Plus he is fit and often has a six pack stomach, not because he goes to the gym and works at it (since he doesn't), it's just because he enjoys some sport.

Yet he manages with no difficulty to get dates with different attractive women, using online apps and in person. He has also had a number of ongoing girlfriends (until he dumped them), plus a sex life (I know this since he has brought one of them home and I've unfortunately heard them at it). He is also aware of red pill stuff and MGTOW and Incels, yet he thinks they are ridiculous and have little clue about women.

So not all young men are finding it difficult.

Then there are three of my male nephews (in their twenties and early thirties), two of them are quite nerdy (both high earning engineers) with all of them probably being autistic. Yet two of them are married and the other is living with his long term sex partner.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Well. Your assessment of my "fit" throwing is somewhat off and I stand by my statement.
> 
> A woman stupid enough to demand your financial portfolio shouldn't be surprised if she gets treated like the woman for hire that she is.
> 
> ...


I have no idea what formula you're talking about. You seem to be modeling your universe based on what you could have done years ago with some woman and then thinking it applies to what is going on today. That's a faulty model.

The accurate model of today is that woman face a higher false positive rate in their mate selection process due to an abundance of choice and an inability to find the signal amidst the noise when it comes to men looking for relationships.

Their sense of self-worth becomes inflated by the abundance of male choice, so with all of that choice, they naturally pick the better quality men. They come to believe that the men they choose want the same from a relationship as what they are searching for. Many of these men give off those signals or simply mirror what they woman wants. This is why they're hitting a higher false positive rate. The women invests some more with the guy, goes to bed with him, then he ghosts. She has no way to distinguish between that fantastic guy who really does want a relationship with her and that fantastic guy who only says he wants a relationship with her. 

The key aspect which is leading her to have problems is her inflated sense of worth on the mating market. She wants those good guys but she never asks herself how she compares to other woman and what she offers that desirable man. Absent that self-realization of her own self-worth, she has no reason to lower her sights, after all, she is getting the attention of men that she desires. Only when she changes her strategy and lowers her sights will she find that her false positive rate declines, more of these men are willing to enter a relationship with her because these men are dealing with scarcer pickings in terms of women compared to the higher value guys. The problem here is that the woman now enters that relationship with the firm belief that she is settling, she's been with lots of guys she desired but could never lockdown. Those guys set her expectation floor. Now she's settled and it's a pebble in her shoe, always irritating her subconscious.

That's what is going on today. You being able to lockdown some beautiful woman 30 years ago has no bearing on today.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Personal said:


> So not all young men are finding it difficult.


Of course not. According to the data I linked in another comment, 30% of men between the ages of 18-30 have not had sex within the past year, this means that 70% of that cohort of men have had sex within the past year. That 70% of men are not the squeaky wheel that we are reading about and worried about. That 30% of men under 30 are not having sex is alarming as hell.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

happyhusband0005 said:


> It's been proven pretty clearly that the attempts to reduce masculinity don't work. People trying to raise boys who like to play with dolls instead of trucks as an example frustrate the people attempting this because more often than not the boy doesn't want to play with the doll.


I had something similar happen with my kids, which I always found interesting!

When they were little, I never cared what they played with or what they wanted to do/be - I just wanted them to feel FREE to be themselves, and whatever that was, would be find with me! So there were times that my boys picked up their younger sister's dolls and played with them, and times my daughter picked up their matchbox cars to play with.

And what was interesting was, they each played with those toys in their own "gendered" way - the boys made the dolls fight or battle or conquer, and my daughter lined the cars up as families, the biggest was the "Daddy" down to the smallest being "the baby", and they did "family" things. I found it SO interesting, because I really had NO input on that for them at all, because I just didn't care. They also didn't watch much TV (because I didn't like them to), and I read stories to them that didn't have defined gender rolls at all, or any expectations.

I don't know what it really means, I just thought it was quite interesting!


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldtruck said:


> now joe average realizes he most likely was not going to get a 10, but
> finds himself getting passed over by average women.
> 
> the reason women are now having more sex than men is that the top
> ...


Exactly on target.

In a nutshell, men marry the women they want, women marry the men they can get.

Men can desire all of those hot 10 women, the pin-ups, instagram models, the supermodels, etc. They know that they have a snowball's chance in hell of getting with any of them, so they preemptively don't bother going for them. What men do is set realistic sights on the woman that they can get, these are the women they desire, that they want. They go after them and eventually get one of those women they want.

Women though play an entirely different game. For women, they have a magic power, a magic box, if you will, which does enable them to get with the exact men that they do desire. They open that magic box and those desired men are right there. That magic box that women possess allows them to get their foot in the door and work on the guy they truly desire to get him locked down in a relationship. However, a guy desired by many women is not so eager to be taken off the market by his present-woman, so he kicks her to the curb and moves on to another woman who has opened her magic box for him.

Eventually women see that they're running out of time, their repeated efforts to woo the men they desire have failed, so now they turn their attention to the men that they can get. Eventually some man comes along and wants her, she gets him, and they're now both taken out of the market.

The trouble for the guy comes years later, after he's provided her with children and a stable domestic life. Her younger days set the standard for the type of man she wants and now she's more free to go back out and start getting the men she wants because she never was truly content with just the man she could get.

This is what happens when female sexuality is unleashed from social and structural control.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I had something similar happen with my kids, which I always found interesting!
> 
> When they were little, I never cared what they played with or what they wanted to do/be - I just wanted them to feel FREE to be themselves, and whatever that was, would be find with me! So there were times that my boys picked up their younger sister's dolls and played with them, and times my daughter picked up their matchbox cars to play with.
> 
> ...


If you're an important person in meat-space, don't say this in pubic. This is what got Larry Summers, the President of Harvard, fired from his job.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I had something similar happen with my kids, which I always found interesting!
> 
> When they were little, I never cared what they played with or what they wanted to do/be - I just wanted them to feel FREE to be themselves, and whatever that was, would be find with me! So there were times that my boys picked up their younger sister's dolls and played with them, and times my daughter picked up their matchbox cars to play with.
> 
> ...


"Borat's" cousin (Simon Baron-Cohen) did some work on this:

_Sexual dimorphism in sociability has been documented in humans. The present study aimed to ascertain whether the sexual dimorphism is a result of biological or socio-cultural differences between the two sexes. 102 human neonates, *who by deﬁnition have not yet been inﬂuenced by social and cultural factors*, were tested to see if there was a difference in looking time at a face (social object) and a mobile (physical-mechanical object). Results showed that the* male infants showed a stronger *_*interest in the physical-mechanical mobile while the female infants showed a stronger interest in the *_*face*. The results of this research clearly demonstrate that sex differences are in part biological in origin. _


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lance Mannion said:


> Sorry about starting off so metaphysical, but I want to build to a point.
> 
> What is reality? How do we understand it? The best route to understand reality is to model it. So in your question the reality we want to address is inter-sex mating issues. So what is the very simplest model we can construct. Well, there are 4 billion women on this planet and there are 4 billion men (ignore the rounding errors and death rates, etc) so this means that there are 4 billion matched pairs that we can create. Does that model look anything like the world we see? Nope. It though does have one essential truth - the matching process.
> 
> ...



You can continue to make this argument, and I will counter that when the "VR" and artificial intelligence becomes fully developed no one will be having sex or getting marriage anyway. I will pale in comparison. Already less and less people do.

Genes will be negotiated for reproduction or maybe you will go to a clinic. The good news is we will all be dead anyway so who cares.

The human race will go to be whatever it becomes.

In the current world date anyone who uses their sexuality to judge their worth or as a currency and you are asking for trouble, man or woman. I suspect the issue with divorce is the type of women who has a very high count generally has one because she is either using it to judge her self worth or she is using it as a currency to get something. (Granted this is not all the time), but in my opinion it is enough that I would tell a young person to stay away, as I would with a guy who does the same. That kind of thinking doesn't work well with marriage and long term relationships. 

This is like that other thread.

People are ****ed up, be very careful, news at 11.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> I had something similar happen with my kids, which I always found interesting!
> 
> When they were little, I never cared what they played with or what they wanted to do/be - I just wanted them to feel FREE to be themselves, and whatever that was, would be find with me! So there were times that my boys picked up their younger sister's dolls and played with them, and times my daughter picked up their matchbox cars to play with.
> 
> ...


There have actually been studies on that.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

sokillme said:


> I suspect the issue with divorce is the type of women who has a very high count generally has one because she is either using it to judge her self worth or she is using it as a currency to get something.


A woman who is acting on some internal process to accumulate a high count likely predicts something about divorce. What happens though when social propaganda encourages women to accumulate a high count. Instead of that high count being solely due to internal issues with women, now more women are in that pool, now there are two types in the pool, and so the causality gets flipped for the 2nd group. 

Internal issue -----> high count -------> marriage ------>internal issue still -------> divorce.
External issue ------> high count -------> marriage -------> ??????? -------->divorce.

Does the high count itself cause problems which lead to divorce? I suspect so because her brain does get rewired to seek pleasure from short-term pairings, her pool of comparison increases, her mate standards increase. All of these derive directly from high count.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldtruck said:


> there are always exceptions to the rule. however reality produces
> the numbers that set the rules.
> 
> there are women that crass to ask income, and those men that think
> that is the way to get a woman. so sad for the both of them.


Yeah. I know there is a lot of humanity that lives down to expectations but we aren't all fated for a cheap over deep existence.

We are beautiful despite our ugly world if we choose to be.

I could have married very physically beautiful women, wealthy women or even a good combination. I was too honest to do either or anything in between until I saw the one I couldn't do without and she wasn't rich or a model but she had my heart from the first second and still does into our third decade since seeing her smile.

There really isn't that accurate a formula to figure us all out. Praise God.

We are just a little too weird and wonderful to fit in a box.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lance Mannion said:


> A woman who is acting on some internal process to accumulate a high count likely predicts something about divorce. What happens though when social propaganda encourages women to accumulate a high count. Instead of that high count being solely due to internal issues with women, now more women are in that pool, now there are two types in the pool, and so the causality gets flipped for the 2nd group.
> 
> Internal issue -----> high count -------> marriage ------>internal issue still -------> divorce.
> External issue ------> high count -------> marriage -------> ??????? -------->divorce.
> ...


I think high-count and increasing divorce rates both come from a common ancestry and that is - because they can. 

Many of the legal and social taboos for both promiscuity and divorce have been rapidly declining in the last few decades. 

Economics plays a big role in that as well.

In days of yore women weren’t able to sleep around because the clock was ticking on when they’d get booted out of daddy’s house and getting fed and a roof over their heads depended on a man taking them in. 

And the common couple couldn’t afford to divorce without both of them being destitute. 

Divorce has always existed in this country but it was often only in the higher classes that could afford it.

Today women have much the same or arguably even more financial opportunities today so they don’t need to be married off by 19 and today the common couple can afford to divorce and there is the social and legal taboos and barriers of generations of the past. 

IMHO female sexuality and couples splitting up at some point before they die is not the aberration or some freak blip on the radar. 
I think it is a step closer to the natural order In recovering from our puritanical roots and Victorian era reverberations. 

To me the high costs and heartaches and damage of divorce tell me one thing, people want to get away that bad.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> To me the high costs and heartaches and damage of divorce tell me one thing, people want to get away that bad.


Actually, I think this only applies to a subset of divorced people, those who embark on a mutually-decided parting of the ways. That's not the majority of divorces. 

Now for those where only one partner wants to split, many of those are due to an outside romantic/sexual interest. The FOG screws up rational decision making. If you poll the departing spouse at that moment, they report that they want out of the marriage and have happiness waiting for them elsewhere. Go back and survey them again 5 years later and 80% of those people who divorced regret their decision. It's not clear from my reading of that study if that 80% was from both spouses or only those who initiated the divorce.

Some people do desperately want to get away and the high price is worth it, but some who desperately want to get away are making a bad decision. I don't see anyway to stop them from making a bad decision though.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Lance Mannion said:


> Actually, I think this only applies to a subset of divorced people, those who embark on a mutually-decided parting of the ways. That's not the majority of divorces.
> 
> Now for those where only one partner wants to split, many of those are due to an outside romantic/sexual interest. The FOG screws up rational decision making. If you poll the departing spouse at that moment, they report that they want out of the marriage and have happiness waiting for them elsewhere. Go back and survey them again 5 years later and 80% of those people who divorced regret their decision. It's not clear from my reading of that study if that 80% was from both spouses or only those who initiated the divorce.
> 
> Some people do desperately want to get away and the high price is worth it, but some who desperately want to get away are making a bad decision. I don't see anyway to stop them from making a bad decision though.


If someone wants to get away that desperately, then it’s not a bad decision on their part.

We may not agree with it and we may not have taken that course of action for ourselves, but if someone is desperate to get away, then they need to get away even if others don’t agree with it.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> If someone wants to get away that desperately, then it’s not a bad decision on their part.
> 
> We may not agree with it and we may not have taken that course of action for ourselves, but if someone is desperate to get away, then they need to get away even if others don’t agree with it.


Agree, but it's a hell of thing. Marriages are far more "invested in" than mere commercial contracts, and no way do we tolerate unilateral abrogation of commercial contracts like we do with marriages and to stick the person who is honoring the contract with a **** sandwich.

Yeah, for the person who leaves, the turmoil is certainly worth it (at the moment, no guarantee down the line), but the one who is left behind, well, they committed their life to a certain path, when they took that path they willing chose to not go down other paths. They invested a lot into a promise and they get no compensation when their life is upended by the spouse breaking the contract.This is an injustice that we allow. We shouldn't allow that injustice, the no-penalty for breaking a contract injustice.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Lance Mannion said:


> Some people do desperately want to get away and the high price is worth it, but some who desperately want to get away are making a bad decision. *I don't see anyway to stop them from making a bad decision though.*


You CAN'T stop them. And sometimes (maybe even most of the time), you SHOULDN'T stop them -- it's called CONSEQUENCES...and people always deserve them (whether good or bad) and they make excellent teachers.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> You CAN'T stop them. And sometimes (maybe even most of the time), you SHOULDN'T stop them -- it's called CONSEQUENCES...and people always deserve them (whether good or bad) and they make excellent teachers.


The problem is that those consequences are, for the most part, falling on the innocents. The residual consequences which fall on the spouse who wants the divorce often come years later and are minor to the hurt and consequences which were inflicted on the innocent parties.


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## maree (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm in my 30s and this isn't my experience at all. Stereotype much? Sure there are some women out there who have high expectations, but not even a majority of them are like you are saying. I know lots of average and even nerdy men who are dating or married....

That said when I was dating I did have a height requirement. I am 5'11" and I like a man my height or taller. Shame on me for having a preference lol. I wonder how many men would request a 2nd date if I was 7' tall? Or weighed 600 lbs? We all have dating preferences or what we find attractive in someone else. Im sure people in the 80s did as well.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lance Mannion said:


> A woman who is acting on some internal process to accumulate a high count likely predicts something about divorce. What happens though when social propaganda encourages women to accumulate a high count. Instead of that high count being solely due to internal issues with women, now more women are in that pool, now there are two types in the pool, and so the causality gets flipped for the 2nd group.
> 
> Internal issue -----> high count -------> marriage ------>internal issue still -------> divorce.
> External issue ------> high count -------> marriage -------> ??????? -------->divorce.
> ...


What is this her brain crap. How do you know what she is thinking, do you have some tech no one else has? It's good enough to say a women like that is an asshole and then not say anything else about her and move on to the next one.

Don't act like men don't propagate and do exactly the same ****. Men evaluate there worth by the amount of women they sleep with. Women evaluate their worth by the amount of men WANT to sleep with them. And ****ty ones game stupid guys who are not smart enough to know it.

Even your Red Pill, which sounds like you espouse, given you wording in these posts, evaluates men by there sex count. A high sex count male is considered an Alpha by there standards. Which is how you can tell it's stupid. It rails against the very thing it uses to evaluate itself on, like a penchant child.

I actually feel sorry for guys who have taken the Red Pill, as it's really just snake oil, even if I am sure some of the techniques work on some very vapid women, or some poor unsuspecting ones.

What everyone misses is Sex is about Intimacy. If you turn it into just like having coffee with someone, and you marry someone who feels the same don't be surprised when your spouse treats it with just as much value, when they really want to do it with someone else, vows or not. I say that for both Men and Women.

The saddest thing about it is that I suspect what most of the Men who took the Red Pill, well really what everyone wants is that intimacy. That connection but they think they will somehow get that with sex. But like a meal at a fast food restaurant in the long run it won't nourish you. Problem is you can't have intimacy if you can't connect emotionally, and where we really have gone wrong is that we haven't taught Boys how to do that. An now we are teaching them that their nature is toxic. (Don't get me started on that ****.)

Still I get really tired of post like this. I sure this read to the women on here, who are ****ing awesome, the same way some 3rd wave feminist post would read to lots of men. Besides what you are talking about here is just awful people, not womenkind. That's the thing, I work with them and frankly all the women I work with I admire. They kick ass at their jobs, and still do most of the work at home as far as I can tell. It's some of the Men I worry about.

Just for once I would like to read on here the equivalent of the female version of this. Maybe as a Man I will start it on behalf of my Wife, Mother, Sisters, all the Women I work with and some of the great posters who I am sure get tired of this.

I would start on how today Men watch and laugh at TV shows, and Movies that basically glorify the worst of their behavior, and in all those movies the "men" are married to the hottest women alive. As far as I can tell the women in those movies are with them because their hearts in the right place. Just once I would like to see a movie where the Father/Husband was competent leader, with the emotional intelligence of more then a 2 year old. No wonder young men struggle, they watch this **** and think all they have to do is have their heart in the right place. Hell I thought that. I wish I knew what I know now. I would have had a much easier time of it.

It's like "Everybody Loves Raymond". Remember that show, it's funny. Used to like it, but the truth is Ray in that show is a straight up Beta POS. Why would any women want to be married to that Lazy, Passive, Momma's boy. I would rather die then be that man. But the show seemed to be from his point of view, yeah the made fun of him, but hey he's Ray and everyone loves him because his hearts in the right place. He is a little boy in my mind. Take care of your ****, that's a Man's job.

You know what an Alpha Man is, it's am Man who leads. I guy who cherishes his wife enough that she doesn't have to remind him to take out the garbage every ****ing time. Who pays more attention to his family then his sports team, or his car or his video games. Who goes to work brings in a paycheck, but makes sure he tries every day to be kind to is wife and emotionally connect with her, then tries to figure out how to blow her mind in bed and tells her he wants to do that to her, often. (Oh and he should lift weights and try to look attractive - Yes the Red Pill says some of this, that's the good part.) Thing is if you do that, if you have that attitude you will find lots of women who want you, under 6 foot tall or not.

And you know even then she may leave you one day, everything in life ends. That's how it works. You will have a better chance she won't if you do that though. Besides that SO ****ING WHAT. We're MEN, we ****ing went to war, and some of us, hopefully most of us, would do it again. If you meet a women that ****s on you, yes you feel the pain but then you get the **** over it and go on to the next one. That's life. What you don't do is be so terrified of it that you have to build up a whole philosophy about it. Your ****ing MEN what's the matter with you. Do what we always do, pick yourself up and start marching again. That is your honor, that is how God made you.

There is more to life then women and relationships anyway. It's important but it's NOT the most important thing, YOUR HONOR IS. There is NO HONER in generalizing a who gender of people because you haven't found one to connect to. Even if that doesn't work out for you for a while you should be well rounded enough that you can handle it.

Hey I guess I did turn this into a the post I was looking for.

Good equal time and all that.


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

sokillme said:


> What is this her brain crap. How do you know what she is thinking, do you have some tech no one else has? It's good enough to say a women like that is an asshole and then not say anything else about her and move on to the next one.
> 
> Don't act like men don't propagate and do exactly the same ****. Men evaluate there worth by the amount of women they sleep with. Women evaluate their worth by the amount of men WANT to sleep with them. And ****ty ones game stupid guys who are not smart enough to know it.
> 
> ...


If I can offer an alternate perspective...

The 'Red Pill', from what I have seen, is something alot of lost men (especially young ones) gravitate to, because it is a support structure that alot of them do not get in regular society.

I'm not sure what videos you have watched, or where your sources of information are from, but I have seen alot of what is out there, and yes, there is some pure crap, but there are also some quite insightful people, who put information out there as tools for men to use to better understand life.

By 'tools' I mean things like busting the Disney Happily Ever After myth that so many have grown up with. Asking men to stop putting women on a pedestal and realise they are human beings with flaws like the rest of us.

Educating men on the legal system as it is presently, and what liabilities there are for men should they get married, have kids or in some cases co-hibitate, so that they can make better informed decisions going forward.

It is also a tool for teaching men to improve themselves (health, finances, qualifications etc.) , not for anyone else's validation but for their own. How can this be a bad thing? There are so many young men out there who lack REAL male guidance, that having this information I would think is vital to improving their self awareness, and of the world around them.

Getting laid, or hooking up, is the last thing that proper 'Red Pill' information offers. It makes men look at what qualities they want in a partner if they choose to go down that path, rather than just eating whatever **** sandwich society believes they should get.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

sokillme said:


> What is this her brain crap. How do you know what she is thinking, do you have some tech no one else has? It's good enough to say a women like that is an asshole and then not say anything else about her and move on to the next one.


Thinking is not some black box operation filled with mystery. Thinking is a neurochemical operation. Have you ever moved from a quiet country location into a big city and noticed the noise of the city? Live in the city and you soon find out that you can tune out much of the noise. Did you consciously THINK and WILL yourself to do that? No, your brain rewired a bit of itself to filter out the noise.

How do you think muscle memory works? Are you thinking and willing yourself to perfect some physical task? No, your brain is rewiring.

How do you think aversion therapy works? Your brain is being rewired to develop an aversion to some thought or behavior.

When you engage in a lot of short-term sex and find the novelty of the experience to be satisfying, then you're rewiring your brain to seek out that novelty.

Please, let's not pretend that humans are rational beings where every act and decision is arrived at through conscious choice. If that was the case, then we'd be living on the planet Vulcan with Spock.



> I actually feel sorry for guys who have taken the Red Pill, as it's really just snake oil, even if I am sure some of the techniques work on some very vapid women, or some unsuspecting women.


This is a nonsensical sentence. You feel sorry for people who do something that works well for them. It can't be snake oil if it delivers the promised outcome. Whatever your beef is, it's not well thought out.



> What everyone misses is Sex is about Intimacy. If you turn it into just like having coffee with someone, and you marry someone who feels the same don't be surprised when your spouse treated it just the same with someone else, when they really want to, vows or not. I say that for both Men and Women.


This is a normative statement. You're arguing about what sex SHOULD be. Your point though does tie directly into my opening remark, "If you turn it into" is exactly the problem, if you train your brain to treat sex as sport and you find pleasure from it, then that's how you've just wired yourself and you're going to run into marital problems due to lack of variety, something that your brain now craves.

As for the difference between men and women, they have different brain structures. Researchers have found that women with many partners have diminished capacity for pair bonding, they didn't find that to be the case for men. Men, they found, develop pair bonding through repeated sexual union with the same women. Incidentally, they also found that men come to find their mate more attractive due to repeated sexual unions. The more he screws her, the better she starts to look for him.



> The saddest thing about it is that I suspect what most of the Men who took the Red Pill, well really what everyone wants is that intimacy. That connection but they thing they will somehow get that with sex. But like a meal at a fast food restaurant in the long run it won't nourish you. Problem is you can't have intimacy if you can't connect emotionally, and where we really have gone wrong is that we haven't taught Boys how to do that. An now we are teaching them that their nature is toxic. (Don't get me started on that ****.)


How do you think men develop feelings of intimacy? It's not some magic feeling which is dropped from the sky. They get it from having sex with their woman. The sex is the vehicle which bonds the man to the woman. So, your argument doesn't make sense as it stands. The Red Pill serves two purposes and two audiences, one group wants to find and bond with a woman, the other group wants to have sex with many women and not bond to them. The latter group who bed many women don't suffer diminished pair bonding. George Clooney and Warren Beatty were massive poon-hounds and they settled down and stayed faithful to their wives. They are like other men, once they committed to a woman, then repeated sex with her started the pair-bonding mechanism within their brains. It's this very process which makes so many FWB relationships prone to becoming something serious where both partners start to "catch feelings." The depth of the woman's feelings is moderated by her partner count, the man's is less impacted.

If Red Pill methods help a man get a woman interested in him and he commits to her, and the methods KEEP her interested, then all good for your agenda of him developing intimacy, right?



> Still I get really tired of post like this. I sure this read to the women on here, who are ****ing awesome, the same way some 3rd wave feminist post would read to lots of men. Besides what you are talking about here is just awful people, not womenkind. That's the thing, I work with them and frankly all the women I work with I admire. They kick ass at their jobs, and still do most of the work at home as far as I can tell. It's some of the Men I worry about.


People are products of their environment, propaganda is a huge shaper of people's attitudes. Take a look at the incredibly rapid change in attitudes towards homosexuality. In the blink of an eye, long held aversion was engineered away by bashing people with propaganda and not letting up. The same propaganda forces are working on changing, unleashing, female sexual behavior. The women today who have daughters entering college were themselves young women in the late 80s and 90s, they thought that they were sexually liberated and modern, and yet when we compare sexual behavior of today's young women to the behavior of their mothers at the same age, aggregated of course, we see a vast difference in behavior in terms of chasing sex, number of partners, etc. You being upset about this because you admire the women you work with is not really a valid critique of what I wrote.



> I would start on how today Men watch and laugh at TV shows, and Movies that basically glorify the worst of their behavior, and in all those movies the "men" are married to the hottest women alive. As far as I can tell the women in those movies are with them because their hearts in the right place. Just once I would like to see a movie where the Father/Husband was competent leader, with the emotional intelligence of more then a 2 year old. No wonder young men to do better, they watch this **** and think all they have to do is have their heart in the right place.


Are you seriously trying to argue that the male buffoons on TV are there to cater to MALE DEMAND for such characterization? Seriously? Seriously? This is all female driven. Women are consumers of TV content more than men, women control the vast majority of consumer spending, so advertising is geared towards women's taste. It's not a coincidence that as women have captured more power for themselves over time that the nature of male characterization on tv has changed. The men depicted on tv in the 50s, when women had less power in society, are far different from the men depicted on tv in 2020.



> It's like "Everybody Loves Raymond". Remember that show, it's funny. Used to like it, but the truth is Ray in that show is a straight up Beta POS. Why would any women want to be married to that Lazy, Passive, Momma's boy. I would rather die then be that man. But the show seemed to be from his point of view, yeah the made fun of him, but hay he's Ray and everyone loves him because his hearts in the right place. He is a little boy in my mind. Take care of your ****, that's a Man's job.


You know, there's a personality type which is quite toxic to be around, this is the person who needs to belittle and demean those around him in order to feel better about himself. What that person is doing is ego enhancement. This is the exact same process we see with women enjoying seeing men portrayed as buffoons and then seeing the contrasting power women come to save the day. It makes the female audience feel good about themselves, by proxy. Heck, this even goes on with anti-Americanism, Canada and European countries love to rag on America in order to make their citizens feel better about their own country. Same thing with a lot of Mid-Eastern criticism of Israel, demean one target in order to feel better about yourself or your country. Same thing with cross-state rivalries and ethnic jokes. All come from the same root.



> You know what an Alpha Man is, it's am Man who leads. I guy who cherishes his wife enough that she doesn't have to remind him to take out the garbage every ****ing time. Who pays more attention to his family then his sports team, or his car or his video games. Who goes to work brings in a paycheck, but makes sure he tries every day to be kind to is wife and emotionally connect with her, then tries to figure out how to blow her mind in bed and tells her he wants to do that to her, often. (Oh and he should lift weights and try to look attractive - Yes the Red Pill says some of this, that's the good part.) Thing is if you do that, if you have that attitude you will find lots of women who want you, under 6 foot tall or not.


I'm going to make a stab in the dark. Taking your definition of Alpha, you are that very Alpha. How'd I do?

Your wishful thinking of what an Alpha SHOULD be is immaterial. We're dealing with testable hypotheses in terms of what attracts women. These guys who are subscribing to red pill material are not going to stick with it if it does not deliver the results. Your wishful belief in what Alphas SHOULD be has been around for a long time and was not delivering the results, it's called Blue Pill thinking and forms the predominant view in how men are socialized in society today. There was a study a while back which found that the men who are "equal partners" and share the housework with the wife, what we've been socialized into aspiring to, had less sex with their wives than the husbands who maintained more traditional behavior in the family and took care of the outside responsibilities like mowing the lawn, cleaning the gutters, etc. Seeing how women are the gatekeepers of sex, this outcome is solely attributable to women's choices and preferences.



> Your ****ing MEN what's the matter with you. Do what we always do, pick yourself up and start marching again. That is your honor, that is how God made you.


What's wrong with the young men? Their fathers were bamboozled and led down the garden path and as a result they've raised their sons wrong, fed them a bunch of misinformation about how the world really works and how women really behave. What are the two moist recommended books to men on this forum? No More Mr. Nice Guy and Married Man's Sex Life Primer. Both work to CORRECT what men were taught by their fathers, their role models. Why are these books even necessary? Because men have been failed by their fathers.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

It was very much touch and go whether I was going to have or even pursue a relationship in my teens or twenties. I was a virgin until almost 21 and probably would have stayed that way until at least my mid twenties if I had not been set up on a blind date. At least on paper I should have done a little better (varsity on one of the two successful boy's sports teams, did well academically, was the designated driver to many places where teenagers were making questionable decisions, etc). The women I went to school with were oddly vocal about how low my expectations should be (live and die alone, a virgin). I'm still not sure what the motivation was for strangers or near strangers to do that.



sokillme said:


> You know what an Alpha Man is, it's am Man who leads. I guy who cherishes his wife enough that she doesn't have to remind him to take out the garbage every ****ing time. Who pays more attention to his family then his sports team, or his car or his video games. Who goes to work brings in a paycheck, but makes sure he tries every day to be kind to is wife and emotionally connect with her, then tries to figure out how to blow her mind in bed and tells her he wants to do that to her, often. (Oh and he should lift weights and try to look attractive - Yes the Red Pill says some of this, that's the good part.) Thing is if you do that, if you have that attitude you will find lots of women who want you, under 6 foot tall or not.


You can do those things and still end up single. Since I'd been conditioned to not expect to be in a relationship, I did my best to check all those boxes. It turns out that doing too much is also a relationship killer apparently.



sokillme said:


> There is more to life then women and relationships anyway. It's important but it's NOT the most important thing, YOUR HONOR IS. There is NO HONER in generalizing a who gender of people because you haven't found one to connect to. Even if that doesn't work out for you for a while you should be well rounded enough that you can handle it.


When I got my first girlfriend at 20 my only real requirement was that she didn't call me names that often and wasn't physically abusive. Even assuming that I'm going to pursue another relationship, I'm gong to be a bit more choosy. It is possible that being in a relationship is better than being single but that is only one possibility. I certainly don't need companionship and given my locality, there's a decent possibility that I'm not going to find it if I looked for it. I've definitely been disabused of the notion that doing what you're "supposed" to do will result in a positive relationship.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> The question i have now is do both young men and women have unrealistic expectations and distorted view of male-female interaction??


How do you expect to get an answer from this crowd? You're fishing in the wrong pond. Even if you interview the youngins, you will still be applying *your* criteria for what constitutes 'unrealistic expectations'. Which would be pretty much irrelevant to those youngins.

You're probably too young to remember when parents cautioned that Rock and Roll was the work of the Devil.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

maree said:


> I'm in my 30s and this isn't my experience at all. Stereotype much? Sure there are some women out there who have high expectations, but not even a majority of them are like you are saying. I know lots of average and even nerdy men who are dating or married....
> 
> That said when I was dating I did have a height requirement. I am 5'11" and I like a man my height or taller. Shame on me for having a preference lol. I wonder how many men would request a 2nd date if I was 7' tall? Or weighed 600 lbs? We all have dating preferences or what we find attractive in someone else. Im sure people in the 80s did as well.


I don't think anyone would argue with a woman that is almost 6' tall looking for a man at least her height.....Heck, most guys shorter(and many even taller) wouldn't be a taker anyway....No disrespect, just my experience....Even Hafthor Bjorrnson's wife is like a tiny peanut...He's a famous actor and strongman that is like 6'10 and 400 plus pounds..I don't think physical requirements by anyone are being criticized...as long as they aren't unrealistic....I guess the only thing I ever noticed over the years is women that think just because they get a lot of male attention that it means they have a lot of market value physically, in the context of a LTR...that's something they have to learn the hard way, unfortunately....Most guys are pretty aware of their league from early in life...

And unfortunately many of those nerdy and below average guys are the same one's that the women go on boards like this one and complain about how they don't have sexual attraction for and why isn't he making more money or why is he playing stupid video games at 40 plus, all while fantasizing about the hunky guy that fixes the car....My question then is why the hell did you pick him for??


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> The problem is that those consequences are, for the most part, falling on the innocents. The residual consequences which fall on the spouse who wants the divorce often come years later and are minor to the hurt and consequences which were inflicted on the innocent parties.


Oh please. Not every person who is the "victim" of their spouse being the one to pull the trigger on a divorce is an "innocent". People want divorces because the relationship isn't working in some fundamental way. Oftentimes the one who wants the divorce had been mistreated for years and has finally had enough.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

it all started so well...  (this thread)


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I dated in the '80s on the continent and it was the best time ever. People actually talked to you...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I am 34 and I have never had problems finding partners. Well, so long as I stay away from online dating.

Having said that, i met my wife on Yahoo personals, and we hit it off talking about our experiences in the military. But dating apps and services have almost driven people to be very shallow. Swipe left or right? They are literally designed to get people to seek out the most "ideal" partner based entirely on their profile picture. 

Leave online dating and the world hasn't seemed to change much. I almost always find meaningful relationships from shared interest groups these days, and those haven't really changed much. Except that it's maybe easier these days to find those shared interest groups, with so many of them all over the internet. 

Lately, I'm usually turning people down because I already have three partners and i only have a limited amount of energy. 

A lot of young people don't seem to understand that because they grew up with all these online dating apps. They were taught that OLD is how you find a partner... 

I have worked with several INCEL's that honestly didn't know that online dating is a good way to find the worst possible matches. They often have a hard time believing me, because "but i get no response when we have the same hobbies listed on our profile!"

They forget that the whole reason they are there is to hook up with what they see as the most ideal partner, they aren't there to share hobbies. 

Usually, after they start participating in various interest groups, it doesn't take them very long to find someone. With shared interest groups, there is a lot higher chance that two people will meet and _enjoy_ every interaction, which leads to more interaction. A far greater chance than enjoying every interaction with someone they met on a dating app. 

It is a real problem, but it's not because women are more picky than men. The problem is that online dating creates an unrealistic impression of the world.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Lol, what's funny is that my girlfriend is actually taller than i am. Our shared interests were ham radio(that's how we met) and electronics.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I dated multiple tall women. My favorite at the time.

But I'm 6'3".


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I dated multiple tall women. My favorite at the time.
> 
> But I'm 6'3".


My brother was 6'4" and one wife was 5'8" (the tallest) and the other 3 were 5'4" and under. I told him to find someone his own size, dammit and quit marrying those damn beauty queens.

I have known many women who had husbands shorter than they. No problem unless the man makes it one.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

6’4” here, wife is 5’4”. To her I guess I was head and shoulders above the rest?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Never particularly fancied tall women... small and perfectly proportioned is my ideal...


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

I hesitate to say things about other generations b/c it sounds judgy and also b/c I don't spend that much time w/ young people. It does seem to me young people put less emphasis on face-to-face relationships, and sex is a F2F. Of course, 50 years ago there weren't that many alternatives to F2F, so it is unsurprising if F2F has diminished a little.

People are marrying later and less often, and that expectation probably affects people's sex lives.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Sorry about starting off so metaphysical, but I want to build to a point.
> 
> What is reality? How do we understand it? The best route to understand reality is to model it. So in your question the reality we want to address is inter-sex mating issues. So what is the very simplest model we can construct. Well, there are 4 billion women on this planet and there are 4 billion men (ignore the rounding errors and death rates, etc) so this means that there are 4 billion matched pairs that we can create. Does that model look anything like the world we see? Nope. It though does have one essential truth - the matching process.
> 
> ...


I really wonder how many men and women here agree with this.

Reading this cr*p felt like a punch in the gut.

You and your proud ego driven words have decimated, gutted, destroyed, abused, my gender.

According to you, young women now a days are looking for:
-promiscuity
-tinder dates per day
-less physical restraints
-less abstinence
-sexual empowerment
-glamourization of slutty behavior
-promiscuity as personal growth
-the driver seat

In the past "Women were not wholeheartedly embracing promiscuity as a path towards a higher state of enlightenment" WTF??? Are you f**** serious? 

Apparently, women think their self worth is what their sexual freedom looks like. Their brains look forward to nothing more than how many d*cks they can shove into their vajayjays.

I wonder what my great grandma, my grandma, my mom, my daughter think of this representation of their gender. 

What the f*** did your mom or other women do to you to feel such hatred and resentment towards young women??

Do you need to suck your thumb and a security blanket to make you less anxious about your repressed sexual fears?

I'm sorry female empowerment hurts YOU. 

Your twisted words have ignored women have brains, women have feelings, women are loyal, women nurture, women care, women are hard working, women have empathy, women help each other, women protect, women are fierce, women are strong, women cry, women bring happiness to other people, women are friends, women are needed in this society, and women have sex....Yes, women have sex and they enjoy it as part of their lives, not as the engine of their lives. 

Your biology lessons forgot about the other chemicals of women's brains. We are beings who are deeply affected by hormonal changes. Those changes are critical during puberty, ovulation, during pregnancy, postpartum, and menopause. This is the fuel of our lives. 

You give your male driven opinion, behind a shield of studies and polls, but our day to day life is not as simple (and ludicrous) as you tell.

I hope my son never feels threatened by a female and I hope my daughter never finds a man who feels threatened by her. 

I dated once a guy who thought women should be restrained (including me.) He broke up with me telling me it was too much for him to live under my shadow (wtf?!?) I ended up isolated and hurt. I promised to myself to never, ever, date someone who felt threatened by me and by what I can do. 

I hope you don't have any daughters.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

All this is why men date, we marry, we fish.

More f'n simple.
😂😂😂


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

people of all kinds of shapes and sizes are still dating and having sex in today's word....


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> As noted above, I have virtually NONE of the traits and characteristics that the internet, Red Pill, women’s dating profiles and the Manosphere in general say that women require in order to have attraction and desire.


or what you find on internet is not exactly what's happening in the real world? by internet standards only model type women would be able to find a man, but somehow that's not the case. People are still getting together


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)




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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

You know what? Frankly, it sounds like bunch of older people complaining about new ways of the world today... ;lol. Do we have any younger posters to tell us if things are really that bad today? Becuase I do not see it when I look around - people are still dating, having sex, enjoying life. I see young couples holding hands, and they are of different height, shape, weight, level of attractiveness.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Sorry about starting off so metaphysical, but I want to build to a point.
> 
> What is reality? How do we understand it? The best route to understand reality is to model it. So in your question the reality we want to address is inter-sex mating issues. So what is the very simplest model we can construct. Well, there are 4 billion women on this planet and there are 4 billion men (ignore the rounding errors and death rates, etc) so this means that there are 4 billion matched pairs that we can create. Does that model look anything like the world we see? Nope. It though does have one essential truth - the matching process.
> 
> ...


You are WAAAAAY over complicating this. Some guys are horrible with women. So some men can't get women. Generally these types of guys share the lack one major thing, self confidence. Thats their problem not the women around them. You're laying blame for the perceived discrepancy in sexual power on women and saying it all has to do with cultural shifts making women more promiscuous. Maybe at the same time women have been empowering themselves a lot of men have become weaker. You also seem to assume guys will bang any woman willing to get naked, this is clearly not true. 

What I take from most of what you have written is women should only be out seeking 1 man to be with but it's fine for men to be out running up the notches on their bed posts. Newsflash, most women like sex, women are free to chose their partners. Some women just like men are not in a place in life where they are looking for a spouse. What does one do, they casually date. Sometimes when women date men they have sex with them. Sometimes a woman will even be out of a relationship but still feel like having sex so she might hookup with a guy once and never talk to him again. Then this same woman might find herself at a point in life that she wants to settle down and get married to a guy that fits what she wants in a husband. Luckily for her there are a lot of good men who will be her type and want her even though she has been with multiple men. Another newsflash she still isn't going to go for the zero confidence 30 year old virgin. No most women who have sex before marriage settles for the guy she marries. 

I think the progress made from women's empowerment is actually a benefit for society. Takes some of the weaker male genes out of the pool. 

And I don't see that the charts and graphs you posted really make any point. OK the one about number of partners and divorce rate is interesting. But what I take from it is women who have had more relationships are probably more confident that they can exit a miserable marriage and look for happiness. The rest were all high school numbers the girls numbers were slightly higher than the boys which can be easily explained by the well known fact that adolescent girls are more mature than boys, a lot of high school boys are just straight goofy. 

I am curious as to how you define promiscuous.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Personal said:


> Well given that kind of nonsense, my 20 year old full-time (high academic achieving) university student son shouldn't be getting any.
> 
> Since he is 5'6", frequently has no income, is still on his learners license circa 30 hours out of 120 hours to go. Plus more notably he has a slight speech impediment, is probably autistic (like his diagnosed younger sister) and is at the very least somewhat quirky.
> 
> ...


Nope according to my 14 year old you can't be a gamer if you play on a console. PC only for true gamers.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

happyhusband0005 said:


> You are WAAAAAY over complicating this. Some guys are horrible with women. So some men can't get women. Generally these types of guys share the lack one major thing, self confidence. Thats their problem not the women around them. You're laying blame for the perceived discrepancy in sexual power on women and saying it all has to do with cultural shifts making women more promiscuous. Maybe at the same time women have been empowering themselves a lot of men have become weaker. You also seem to assume guys will bang any woman willing to get naked, this is clearly not true.
> 
> What I take from most of what you have written is women should only be out seeking 1 man to be with but it's fine for men to be out running up the notches on their bed posts. Newsflash, most women like sex, women are free to chose their partners. Some women just like men are not in a place in life where they are looking for a spouse. What does one do, they casually date. Sometimes when women date men they have sex with them. Sometimes a woman will even be out of a relationship but still feel like having sex so she might hookup with a guy once and never talk to him again. Then this same woman might find herself at a point in life that she wants to settle down and get married to a guy that fits what she wants in a husband. Luckily for her there are a lot of good men who will be her type and want her even though she has been with multiple men. Another newsflash she still isn't going to go for the zero confidence 30 year old virgin. No most women who have sex before marriage settles for the guy she marries.
> 
> ...


Can not love it enough!


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I don't believe those stats about numbers before premarital sex at all. No one gives you their numbers, to begin with. And I can tell you that the 1970s, before any diseases to scare people off from sex, more people were having sex outside of marriage than than any other time in my lifetime, by far. A whole generation of young people we're having casual sex. No not everyone of course, but it is starkly different from how it is the last decades.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't believe those stats about numbers before premarital sex at all. No one gives you their numbers, to begin with. And I can tell you that the 1970s, before any diseases to scare people off from sex, more people were having sex outside of marriage than than any other time in my lifetime, by far. A whole generation of young people we're having casual sex. No not everyone of course, but it is starkly different from how it is the last decades.


Ain't it the truth. 
Loved the 70s and early 80s. Women were plentiful and easily available. 

Probably why women aren't feared by myself and friends I grew up with.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Exactly. 
Now you hear a lot of fearful guys bemoaning that women don't initiate, but they're the same guys who would be quick to judge a woman who was having casual sex. I guess they just want them to magically appear while they're playing video games or watching porn like a pizza delivery person.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Exactly.
> Now you hear a lot of fearful guys bemoaning that women don't initiate, but they're the same guys who would be quick to judge a woman who was having casual sex. I guess they just want them to magically appear while they're playing video games or watching porn like a pizza delivery person.


Isn't there an app for that?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

😂Yeah. I think it's called porn anime.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> this topic was brought up in another thread and I didn't want to threadjack it any more than it already was)
> I was mid teens-mid 20s during the 1980s and married in the mid '90s in my early 30s. By today's standards, I should not have had sex.
> If I ever made it to an honest 6' tall it would have been in my mid-upper 20s before spinal compression started, my state-issued ID lists me officially at 5'11. I was of average looks, and while I was lean (skinny actually until my mid 20s) but never true 6-pack abz. And I have always had an average to a little above average income.
> My circle of friends were all of similar height, looks, body composition and incomes.
> ...


I'm under 6ft, at the annoying 5'11 height where you are 1 fking inch away from minimum height  , I drive an old, but reliable vehicle. I am self-employed but have no degree. I am divorced with a child. I have a cat. I game... on PC! Yet, I somehow had no issues throughout my post-divorce life, whether offline or online dating. Like... da fk?

Not to mention three years ago when I was 31, I snagged myself an 18 year old stunner who to this day still gets hit on every time she's not with me. Who to this day freaks me senseless daily, games with me, and yet, is somehow even more mature than me, because in addition to my inferior qualities I am a man-child! So yeah, I'm in f---ing heaven! Ha! 🤟


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I dated multiple tall women. My favorite at the time.
> 
> But I'm 6'3".


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> You give your male driven opinion, behind a shield of studies and polls, but our day to day life is not as simple (and ludicrous) as you tell.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> I'm under 6ft, at the annoying 5'11 height where you are 1 fking inch away from minimum height  , I drive an old, but reliable vehicle. I am self-employed but have no degree. I am divorced with a child. I have a cat. I game... on PC! Yet, I somehow had no issues throughout my post-divorce life, whether offline or online dating. Like... da fk?
> 
> *Not to mention three years ago when I was 31*, I snagged myself an 18 year old stunner who to this day still gets hit on every time she's not with me. Who to this day freaks me senseless daily, games with me, and yet, is somehow even more mature than me, because in addition to my inferior qualities I am a man-child! So yeah, I'm in f---ing heaven! Ha! 🤟


WAIT a minute...YOU are in your mid-30s...??? WHY did I think you were late-40s...?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Some women need to “feel” like the women in the relationship, some men need to “feel” like the man in the relationship... aka men being taller and bigger, men making more money etc. some people couldn’t care less. 


People have preferences. I don’t think it’s a bad thing to expect your partner to be around where you are... looks wise, $$ wise etc. 

News flash, women like tall men that make good money. Just like men like fit women with nice boobs/butt. This isn’t new. NEEDING it is another thing.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> WAIT a minute...YOU are in your mid-30s...??? WHY did I think you were late-40s...?


Huh? OMG I act that old? 

I would have thought I act like I'm 20s! Or maybe that's me dreaming...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> Huh? OMG I act that old?
> 
> I would have thought I act like I'm 20s! Or maybe that's me dreaming...


Lol!!! It's NOT that...believe me, VERY FEW men post and sound old, especially to women!! 

I think it's from things you've said, but I can't really remember what...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Here is another truth that needs to be said more. Not everyone deserves to have a mate. There is actually a hell of a lot of people who have no business being in romantic relationships. And it has nothing to do with appearance or earning potential. And it ain't the opposite sexes fault. You're "frame" isn't going to fix that.

You guys act like only 6 foot tall guys get married or have good relationships. The average high of most men is 5' 6" I think. Most of them marry, some to very attractive women. It's also a good thing the average height of women is 5' 2".

Maybe start by not acting like having a relationship with a women is some sort of prize to be won. And you know what, if you are not blessed enough to be George Clooney or 6' 2" like most of us, how about you just start talking to women an listening and see if you click with any of them. If you do, take the risk and pursue them and make it plain that you are interested, don't be covert about it to hedge your bets, but in a fun flirty way. And if it turns out she is not interested be happy she told you so as not to waste your time, just move on to the next one. Don't take it to mean there is something wrong with you and don't be angry about it, that is just life. Not everyone clicks. If you do get to date them, test them and see if once you really get to know them if they are good people. Why make it so hard.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> Lol!!! It's NOT that...believe me, VERY FEW men post and sound old, especially to women!!
> 
> *I think it's from things you've said, but I can't really remember what...*


You must let me know and I must never say that one thing ever again!


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> You are WAAAAAY over complicating this. Some guys are horrible with women. So some men can't get women. Generally these types of guys share the lack one major thing, self confidence. Thats their problem not the women around them.


Disagree. These types of men are often referred to as "bare branches" and when society has this demographic group growing in size, it is very destablizing to society. These men without women cause lots of problems and those problems can wash over you and your children and your family and your neighbors.



> What I take from most of what you have written is women should only be out seeking 1 man to be with but it's fine for men to be out running up the notches on their bed posts. Newsflash, most women like sex, women are free to chose their partners.


Women are certainly free to choose their partners and then they're also free to chant :"Where have all of the good men gone?" when they start looking to get married. Choices have consequences.

I want to address that gotchya point that you think you scored, men and women do not operate on identical sexual strategies. Women want particular things from their men, men want particular things from their women. If women were attracted to male virgins, Incels would be featured characters on Sex in the City and all teen dramas. Instead what do we see in these media products targeted at women? We see that the men that women desire are the men that other women desire, meaning the guy who is popular with the girls, the guy who has confidence with the women, the guy who beds the women. All of those women, they validate the worth of the man. No woman is really that comfortable with all of her friends feeling sorry for her because she took on a man that all of her friends reject as someone that they're not interested in. You clinging to this weird notion that men and women must operate on identical selection criteria is distorting your understanding of the reality of what is playing out in inter-sex dynamics.



> Some women just like men are not in a place in life where they are looking for a spouse. What does one do, they casually date.


Sure. Choices though come with consequences. Let me give you an example based on a man. He is a 30+ teacher and he meets a young woman somewhere and they hit it off, date a while and then talk about their histories. He discloses that he's never really been seriously involved with any woman, just a series of short term flings. Turns out that he dated 10 women before he met this one. Also turns out that he started dating each of them when they were 16 and students in his class and dated them until they went off to college. Should this new woman be able to judge this man for his dating history?

When women are single, the operative question should be this - My choice tonight is between this guy or my future husband. If I choose this guy, then this will most likely reduce my pool of future husbands. Which is worth more to me, my short term interest or my long term interest? The very same analysis applies to the guy I used in my example. When he chose to date his underage students, he also chose to accept the long term consequences that future women, those who he wanted to build a life with, would disqualify him as husband-material because of his past choices. He made his bed, now he has to lie in it.



> Sometimes when women date men they have sex with them. Sometimes a woman will even be out of a relationship but still feel like having sex so she might hookup with a guy once and never talk to him again. Then this same woman might find herself at a point in life that she wants to settle down and get married to a guy that fits what she wants in a husband. Luckily for her there are a lot of good men who will be her type and want her even though she has been with multiple men.


What a reassuring fairy tale you have spun. Weird how we are seeing so much angst from women crying out "Where have all of the good men gone?" Seems that there aren't all of these good men waiting at the end of the rainbow after the woman has finished exploring her wild side.

Let's also not overlook that men can make stupid decisions. We just need to pop over into the CWI archives to see how many men's lives are destroyed when they marry the town pump. 



> I think the progress made from women's empowerment is actually a benefit for society. Takes some of the weaker male genes out of the pool.


All of the sociological evidence disagrees with you. Women have evolved a mentality which benefits their evolutionary interest. It is what it is. Look about you, when women exercise political power, or social power, it is for their benefit. This is quite different from men, who exercised their power not for their own aggrandizement but for the benefit of the group. Women's political groups, women's perspectives on the news, women's scholarship, women's schools. Do you think that the NYT has any writers spinning the news as a male-focused news item? Where are the male outreach programs? Women are the majority sex in higher education and they're still pushing women's outreach programs. 

The dichotomy is best illustrated with the issue of war brides. The men of a society join to together to protect the group. Meanwhile, some women are fraternizing with the enemy in order to get some stockings or food or whatever. Why? Because it is in her immediate self-interest to seek favor from the strongest male. Group loyalty? Don't make me laugh. 

Did we see many Afghani or Iraqi "war husbands" being brought back to America by women warriors? Poor goatherders or Taliban (you now the enemy we fought) in the Afghani villages that American women soldiers fell in love with and wanted to take care of?

Economic studies in the West show a massive wealth transfer from men to women. Women organize politically and favor greater social programs to benefit themselves.



> And I don't see that the charts and graphs you posted really make any point. OK the one about number of partners and divorce rate is interesting. But what I take from it is women who have had more relationships are probably more confident that they can exit a miserable marriage and look for happiness.


I have no criticism of your effort to develop alternative hypotheses. Fine. I ask that you test out that hypotheses rather than just find succor from it because it conforms to your ideological view. If you had bothered to test it, you'd have found it falsified from the data that women with fewer partners before marriage correlate to having higher levels of happiness within marriage. It seems that those high count women are less happy in marriage and are seeking happiness elsewhere. Funny how that very dynamic is something I detailed earlier in this thread in my response to Sokillme. Women who rewire their brains to seek constant novelty with new men, find enjoyment from new sexual experiences and crave it, will be more likely to not adapt to the sameness of living with one men, bedding with one man, and so now we come to your hypothesis, they're unhappy in marriage and split in search of greener pastures. For a man looking at this data, that women is a bad bet for marriage. The data hints at something going on. You try to explain the data one way, to put a positive spin on it so that it supports your ideological view, but your spin doesn't work. You can try to come up with an alternative explanation, but you should also test it, and eventually you should let the data and the best hypothesis guide your thinking instead of relying only on propaganda.



> The rest were all high school numbers the girls numbers were slightly higher than the boys which can be easily explained by the well known fact that adolescent girls are more mature than boys, a lot of high school boys are just straight goofy.


Yes, that is AN explanation, but is it THE explanation? Girls have ALWAYS matured in puberty earlier than boys. That fact though doesn't explain why we're suddenly seeing girls becoming sexually active before boys, having more partners than boys. You're pointing to a biological issue, but it's not biology, it's acculturation, something has changed in the culture, we're now seeing girls with 10+ partners dealing with a new boyfriend who is a virgin, this is something, taken as a movement rather than odd one-offs, that is different from the past. Understand my point, sure, in the past there would be occasional situations where an experienced girl would match-up with an inexperienced boy, but that wasn't the common dynamic. The cultural messaging, the propaganda, is designed to promote female promiscuity, to get the girls out there having hook-up sex, taking pride in running up their numbers. 

You know the old trope about notch counts? Ask the man and he will inflate his number in order to win social approval. Ask the woman and she will deflate her number in order to win social approval. Guess what comes out of the woodwork when people are hooked up to lie detectors.



> "Men and women had different answers about their sexual behavior when they thought they had to be truthful," Fisher said.
> 
> This result confirms what Fisher found in an earlier study, back in 2003 - with one important difference.
> 
> ...


Society has changed, even in the past 10 years. WandaJ, in comment #79, remarked that we're all a bunch of old people, essentially out of touch with what is going on, and she's correct. Here's a researcher telling you that there has been massive change in only the last 10 years. What's going on? This type of propaganda is being firehosed at young women:



> Trust me — numbers don’t matter. They have no impact on who that person is.
> But most importantly, no one should make you feel guilty for a decision that’s yours to begin with. It’s your body, it’s your past, it’s ultimately your decision.
> If you want to **** 30 guys at once, do it.
> If you want to meet someone on Tinder just for sex, full steam ahead.
> ...


Trust her, she says. Better to trust science. Here is a study on sexual regrets. I'll give you some of the findings, but they essentially confirm the old death-bed maxim - a woman lying on her deathbed regrets having had sex with some number of men in her past; a man lying on his deathbed regrets missing the opportunities to have sex with some women, of not playing the field. Why do these people have these regrets? Women's regrets have better foundational support than men;s regrets, for the women the regret is about actual experiences, for the men the regret is, essentially, hypothetical. So the propaganda being pushed is directly focused on INCREASING REGRET in women. Who should young women listen to, degenerate propagandists or the accumulated wisdom of more mature women? Clearly, a lot of young women are listening to the advice of degenerate propagandists.

Top 5 Sex-Related Regrets:

Men

Too shy to indicate sexual attraction to someone
Was not more sexually adventurous when young
Was not more sexually adventurous when single
Did not experiment enough sexually
Cheated on past or present partner
Women

Lost virginity to “wrong” partner
Cheated on past or present partner
Relationship progressed “too fast” sexually
Unsafe sex
Sex with a stranger


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Disagree. These types of men are often referred to as "bare branches" and when society has this demographic group growing in size, it is very destablizing to society. These men without women cause lots of problems and those problems can wash over you and your children and your family and your neighbors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have way to much time on your hands.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Here is another truth that needs to be said more. Not everyone deserves to have a mate. There is actually a hell of a lot of people who have no business being in romantic relationships. And it has nothing to do with appearance or earning potential. And it ain't the opposite sexes fault. You're "frame" isn't going to fix that.


Well yeah, but the same can be said of children too. Not everyone deserves being a parent. We tried to find a solution to that once upon a time, coerced sterilization. That experiment didn't turn out too well. Having some authority body deciding who was fit and unfit and then sterilizing the unfit. 

So who is going to be deciding that some people don't deserve to have a mate? How about if someone decides that YOU don't deserve a mate. How are you going to take that news?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Huh? OMG I act that old?
> 
> I would have thought I act like I'm 20s! Or maybe that's me dreaming...


It's only been in the last couple of years where you sound like you're in your late twenties. Before that, you sounded like a snot-nosed bratty teenager. Not that there's anything wrong with snot-nosed bratty teenagers.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Well yeah, but the same can be said of children too. Not everyone deserves being a parent. We tried to find a solution to that once upon a time, coerced sterilization. That experiment didn't turn out too well. Having some authority body deciding who was fit and unfit and then sterilizing the unfit.
> 
> So who is going to be deciding that some people don't deserve to have a mate? How about if someone decides that YOU don't deserve a mate. How are you going to take that news?


The truth is some people shouldn’t parent. Some people shouldn’t get married. That is not the same thing as someone taking that right away. Geez


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> You have way to much time on your hands.


One either has to think for oneself or allow degenerate propagandists to put thoughts in your head.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> One either has to think for oneself or allow degenerate propagandists to put thoughts in your head.


Who cares!! Are you happily married? Then Why worry about single people?


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> The truth is some people shouldn’t parent. Some people shouldn’t get married. That is not the same thing as someone taking that right away. Geez


That's kind of like saying that some days are simply too hot. Yeah OK, it's uncomfortable living through a heat-wave. There's nothing you can do about it, so why bothering complaining.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> Who cares!! Are you happily married? Then Why worry about single people?


I have children I worry about. I want to minimize the damage to them from the sewer culture we have.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> That's kind of like saying that some days are simply too hot. Yeah OK, it's uncomfortable living through a heat-wave. There's nothing you can do about it, so why bothering complaining.


Exactly my point. No one wants their rights taken away from them. It’s facts or life, some people are crappy parents, some crappy spouses, some crappy employers, some crappy people, some crappy kids. Welcome to life.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> I have children I worry about. I want to minimize the damage to them from the sewer culture we have.


Then teach them how a real man should act, how a real man treats women.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Top 5 Sex-Related Regrets:
> 
> Men
> 
> ...


I'm not even going to address what was before that, pseudo socio-psychological philosophy. your view of women is through some imagine you conjured in your mind, that doesn't have much in common with what women really are. We are not statistics, we are living breathing human beings, with our own likes, desires, worries, etc.

But all above points, they are so out of touch with what real women want and like.,,The things on the man's list - 1-4 points - that could be my regrets. But don't worry, I am free woman again and am making up for it now Not looking for a husband at all... done with that.

I do not know any adult woman regreting losing her virginity to the wrong partner. We do not even think about that guy anymore.

Relationship progressed too fast sexually - sometimes it's a problem, sometimes it is not.

Unsafe sex - i would say that should be everybody's worry

you say that women should look for a husband. Why? it is not for everybody


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> Then teach them how a real man should act, how a real man treats women.


We already do, but because our own romantic journey was atypical there is little chance of our kids being able to duplicate it, this means that they have to find their own ways in a society which is unraveling.

Think about how society used to be when women guarded their virtue. Man and woman parked at the lake, making out. He wants to escalate, she wants to hold back. He gets upset. What are his choices? He either accepts her control of pacing or he dumps her. If he dumps her, then what? All other women are like her. 

How does that play out in modern times? If she holds back, he dumps her, swipes on Tinder, and 2 hours later has himself a hot piece of ass. Now she, in order to keep the guy, has to go against her own interest and hop into the sack with him.

Are you saying that to be a real woman a woman must accelerate her pace in regards to sex in order to keep a guy interested?


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> I'm not even going to address what was before that, pseudo socio-psychological philosophy. your view of women is through some imagine you conjured in your mind, that doesn't have much in common with what women really are. We are not statistics, we are living breathing human beings, with our own likes, desires, worries, etc.
> 
> But all above points, they are so out of touch with what real women want and like.,,The things on the man's list - 1-4 points - that could be my regrets. But don't worry, I am free woman again and am making up for it now Not looking for a husband at all... done with that.
> 
> ...


Nope, we're all statistics, we're not all special snowflakes.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> We already do, but because our own romantic journey was atypical there is little chance of our kids being able to duplicate it, this means that they have to find their own ways in a society which is unraveling.
> 
> Think about how society used to be when women guarded their virtue. Man and woman parked at the lake, making out. He wants to escalate, she wants to hold back. He gets upset. What are his choices? He either accepts her control of pacing or he dumps her. If he dumps her, then what? All other women are like her.
> 
> ...


What is wrong with you? Seriously. 

I didn’t say anything about what it means to be a real women. 

You are a walking red flag. I would love to know what the real issue is here and why you care so much if you have a happy loving marriage? Why are you so uncomfortable with the fact that dating today is not like it was decades ago, that women today are not like they were decades ago.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> What is wrong with you? Seriously.
> 
> I didn’t say anything about what it means to be a real women.
> 
> You are a walking red flag. I would love to know what the real issue is here and why you care so much if you have a happy loving marriage? Why are you so uncomfortable with the fact that dating today is not like it was decades ago, that women today are not like they were decades ago.


Why are you so happy that dating today is unlike how dating used to be?

Why is your preference acceptable and my preference is unacceptable? Why do you hate diversity? Have you forgotten that diversity is our strength?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Why are you so happy that dating today is unlike how dating used to be?
> 
> Why is your preference acceptable and my preference is unacceptable? Why do you hate diversity? Have you forgotten that diversity is our strength?


Im not happy or unhappy about dating today. Who cares. My question is why do you care when Your not even dating anymore?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Why are you so happy that dating today is unlike how dating used to be?
> 
> Why is your preference acceptable and my preference is unacceptable? Why do you hate diversity? Have you forgotten that diversity is our strength?


There is a lot of bad things going on in the world. Racism, sexism, pedophilia, child abuse, the state of our economy... you choose to be angry and bear a cross for... the dating scene!?!?!? When your supposedly happily married?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

dating today is easy... it really is. it always has been. people make it hard because they typically want other people to fit into the little boxes that they make for them. who wants to be put in someones box? i certainly dont want to have to fit what some woman expects me to fit. wealthy, strong, fit, tall, blah blah blah. 

and i dont have a box to fit people into either. i would rather get to know people and see if i enjoy my time with them. 

the solution certainly isn't to go back to the old days where people were not free to live as they wish... thats just dumb.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> There is a lot of bad things going on in the world. Racism, sexism, pedophilia, child abuse, the state of our economy... you choose to be angry and bear a cross for... the dating scene!?!?!? When your supposedly happily married?


There is a cycle to life. My kids are going to be entering that dating world. I think it's toxic. I want better for my kids. Don't most parents? How many dads do you think love sending their daughters off to universities where they can have wanton, drunken hook-up sex with frat-boys. Yet they send them off and engage in mental avoidance games to not think about reality. I'm not a passive guy. Why should only degenerates have a voice with respect to changing culture? Why are you so focused on silencing my voice? Respect diversity. Don't be a hater of diversity.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Lance Mannion said:


> There is a cycle to life. My kids are going to be entering that dating world. I think it's toxic. I want better for my kids. Don't most parents? How many dads do you think love sending their daughters off to universities where they can have wanton, drunken hook-up sex with frat-boys. Yet they send them off and engage in mental avoidance games to not think about reality. I'm not a passive guy. Why should only degenerates have a voice with respect to changing culture? Why are you so focused on silencing my voice? Respect diversity. Don't be a hater of diversity.


what makes you think that those of us with daughters are as worried about it as you are?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> There is a cycle to life. My kids are going to be entering that dating world. I think it's toxic. I want better for my kids. Don't most parents? How many dads do you think love sending their daughters off to universities where they can have wanton, drunken hook-up sex with frat-boys. Yet they send them off and engage in mental avoidance games to not think about reality. I'm not a passive guy. Why should only degenerates have a voice with respect to changing culture? Why are you so focused on silencing my voice? Respect diversity. Don't be a hater of diversity.


Because it doesn’t matter what you think. Your kids will make their own choices and there is nothing you can do about it. And guess what? Maybe your kids disagree with you and your views. You can’t blame the world when it’s your kids making the choices.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Disagree. These types of men are often referred to as "bare branches" and when society has this demographic group growing in size, it is very destablizing to society. These men without women cause lots of problems and those problems can wash over you and your children and your family and your neighbors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can write all the novels you want. I think your main problem is you have precisely zero understanding of actual real life women. I don't think I know one women who says, hey that guy is out there banging all kinds of women, thats who I want, yes pre-selection does happen but typically that relates more to relationship potential not a sex related thing. But yes your powers of deduction are superb. If a few different women I know are attracted to me then there is a very good chance other women I don't know will be also. The fact that the "bare branches" can't get a girl has nothing to do with women who don't want them or superior men. It has to do with the guy who can't get the girl, it's his problem and his alone. I am really not worried about those guys causing problems for me or my family. 

Workout, take care of yourself, eat right, develop somethings about yourself that make you somewhat interesting, develop a personal style, get a career. Then you will have an easier time with women. It really is that simple. I mean my 14 year old 8th grader son has been invited to high school parties by girls, he's not Don Juan.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> Because it doesn’t matter what you think. Your kids will make their own choices and there is nothing you can do about it. And guess what? Maybe your kids disagree with you and your views. You can’t blame the world when it’s your kids making the choices.


Can you share with me one thought or position that you have which is in opposition to how a "good person" is defined in these woke times?


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> There is a cycle to life. My kids are going to be entering that dating world. I think it's toxic. I want better for my kids. Don't most parents? How many dads do you think love sending their daughters off to universities where they can have wanton, drunken hook-up sex with frat-boys. Yet they send them off and engage in mental avoidance games to not think about reality. I'm not a passive guy. Why should only degenerates have a voice with respect to changing culture? Why are you so focused on silencing my voice? Respect diversity. Don't be a hater of diversity.


If Drunken hook up sex with frat boys is all your daughter does I would consider yourself lucky. 

Luckily for you, the younger generation men do not care about virginity and the number of men women have sex with.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Can you share with me one thought or position that you have which is in opposition to how a "good person" is defined in these woke times?


This question doesn’t make sense.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

As'laDain said:


> what makes you think that those of us with daughters are as worried about it as you are?


Talking to other mothers and fathers.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> This question doesn’t make sense.


I want to see if you're a person whose thoughts are created for you by others or are a person who can develop positions for yourself even if they are in opposition to what passes for consensus viewpoint.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Lance Mannion said:


> Talking to other mothers and fathers.


and i answered. as a father of a daughter.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Can you share with me one thought or position that you have which is in opposition to how a "good person" is defined in these woke times?


I'm going to ask for @Girl_power , What in the actual F does this even mean.


Lance Mannion said:


> I want to see if you're a person whose thoughts are created for you by others or are a person who can develop positions for yourself even if they are in opposition to what passes for consensus viewpoint.


What exactly is a good person as defined by these woke times.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> Luckily for you, the younger generation men do not care about virginity and the number of men women have sex with.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> I want to see if you're a person whose thoughts are created for you by others or are a person who can develop positions for yourself even if they are in opposition to what passes for consensus viewpoint.


Grow up. Just because someone doesn’t think like you doesn’t mean their thoughts aren’t their own. 

You’re a misogynist. If the thought of your daughter having good drunken fun sex with another keeps you up at night you have problems. 

And btw, I waited till marriage to have sex. It was MY choice. I was the only Christian in my family.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> what makes you think that those of us with daughters are as worried about it as you are?


Maybe a better question is he worried about his son having drunken frat boy sex as well? It's more telling.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Maybe a better question is he worried about his son having drunken frat boy sex as well? It's more telling.


What do you think?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Maybe a better question is he worried about his son having drunken frat boy sex as well? It's more telling.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> View attachment 72986


The data stops in 2015, since then many more places allow gay marriage so seeing the numbers of unmarried men line up pretty well with the percentage of men who are gay it would seem that most straight men have been married by 35.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

the way i see it, it is not my job to even attempt to regulate my children's sex lives. its my job to teach them how to be safe, how to be them, and how to navigate the world. 

which, really means, its my job to teach them to think critically on their own. since the world they will grow up in is not the same as the one i grew up in.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Blondilocks said:


> It's only been in the last couple of years where you sound like you're in your late twenties. Before that, you sounded like a snot-nosed bratty teenager. Not that there's anything wrong with snot-nosed bratty teenagers.


Hahaha oh how I do wish to be young again, though my partner believes despite my years I'm still man-child enough and anymore is too much


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Whao what da, this thread turned into a bible all of a sudden...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> *Hahaha oh how I do wish to be young again, though my partner believes despite my years* I'm still man-child enough and anymore is too much


THERE it is!!!
THOSE are the things you say that made me think you were older!


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> Grow up. Just because someone doesn’t think like you doesn’t mean their thoughts aren’t their own.


Work on your reading comprehension skills. I never said a word about your thinking like me. I asked you if you had any position which is not part of the consensus view, that others would criticize you for.

If you're a liberal, then you might, for instance, say that you think all abortion should be illegal.
If you're a conservative, then you might, for instance, say that universal healthcare and socialized medicine are what is best for the country.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

@Lance Mannion 

 Don't get it

I'm still seeing chaste/lustful romantic/material disloyal/loyal fat/thin tall/short people of all shapes, sizes and genitalia - across all generations from young and old. Just because there's a hookup culture doesn't mean automatically all the youths are gonna join it nor are all the youths going to join a church. 'Tis just my opinion anyway, briefly reading.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

RandomDude said:


> Whao what da, this thread turned into a bible all of a sudden...


It's a bible with charts and graphs. It turns out Jesus would have married Mary Magdalene if she hadn't been out banging all those Chads before she met him.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> The data stops in 2015, since then many more places allow gay marriage so seeing the numbers of unmarried men line up pretty well with the percentage of men who are gay it would seem that most straight men have been married by 35.


Are you innumerate? With homosexual men being about 1% of the male population, they're a rounding error when examining marriage rates. Sheesh.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> THERE it is!!!
> THOSE are the things you say that made me think you were older!



Damn I was hoping it's something else, because that's not something I can easily stop saying! lol


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> Damn I was hoping it's something else, because that's not something I can easily stop saying! lol


It's ok...you fit in perfectly with MY age group then!!! Lol!!!


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

As'laDain said:


> the way i see it, it is not my job to even attempt to regulate my children's sex lives. its my job to teach them how to be safe, how to be them, and how to navigate the world.
> 
> which, really means, its my job to teach them to think critically on their own. since the world they will grow up in is not the same as the one i grew up in.


Every year sees new people entering the porn industry.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Are you innumerate? With homosexual men being about 1% of the male population, they're a rounding error when examining marriage rates. Sheesh.


It's closer to 5 percent. But that includes gay, bisexual and other non hetro.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

RandomDude said:


> @Lance Mannion
> 
> Don't get it
> 
> I'm still seeing chaste/lustful romantic/material disloyal/loyal fat/thin tall/short people of all shapes, sizes and genitalia - across all generations from young and old. Just because there's a hookup culture doesn't mean automatically all the youths are gonna join it nor are all the youths going to join a church. 'Tis just my opinion anyway, briefly reading.


Of course it doesn't mean ALL youth go that way. Trends matter, cultural propaganda matters, why, because of life outcomes, because of effects on society. Choices come with consequences. Hedonism comes with a cost that a lot of people don't like paying when their bill comes due later in life.

Charles Murray wrote about some of this in his book "Coming Apart" and noted that will the upper class is very enthusiastically pushing the libertine world view, they're not really practicing it much themselves, they have stable marriages, lower divorce rates, better educate children with fewer dysfunctions, etc. It is those in the lower classes who embrace the libertinism whose lives are suffering turmoil and dysfunction and this human wreckage is causing a lot of problems for society.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Work on your reading comprehension skills. I never said a word about your thinking like me. I asked you if you had any position which is not part of the consensus view, that others would criticize you for.
> 
> If you're a liberal, then you might, for instance, say that you think all abortion should be illegal.
> If you're a conservative, then you might, for instance, say that universal healthcare and socialized medicine are what is best for the country.


I am a Christian. I waited till marriage to have sex. I am divorced. I believe in abortion. I don’t believe in telling people how to live their life. How I choose to live my life is not what I choose the worlds laws/rules to be. 

I think if you want to wait till marriage to have sex, be barefoot in th kitchen and be subservient to your man that’s awesome. If you want to have tons of animal sex and be a porn star, and make your husband stay home with the kids that’s awesome too. 

Being a good person has nothing to do with the number of sex partners you have, or if you do drugs or watch porn or whatever. A lot of people who make good choices do it because it’s self serving, and it benefits them. It has nothing to do with being a good person. 

It’s like sleeping with other men in your marriage. It’s not about the sex. If we were in an open relationship then the sex with other men doesn’t matter. But if we were in a monogamous marriage, and I slept with other people... it’s the lying, betrayal, deceit that makes it bad.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> It’s like sleeping with other men in your marriage. It’s not about the sex. If we were in an open relationship then the sex with other men doesn’t matter. But if we were in a monogamous marriage, and I slept with other people... it’s the lying, betrayal, deceit that makes it bad.


Yes, it's about the sex.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

@Lance Mannion IS out here fighting the good fight. Meanwhile back at the INCEL clubhouse...


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> @Lance Mannion IS out here fighting the good fight. Meanwhile back at the INCEL clubhouse...


Can't go wrong with a Rodney meme.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Yes, it's about the sex.


No it’s not. Sex in itself isn’t wrong. There are many people who have open marriages.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> How many dads do you think love sending their daughters off to universities where they can have wanton, drunken hook-up sex with frat-boys. Yet they send them off and engage in mental avoidance games to not think about reality.


As a parent with two daughters one from my first marriage and the other from my second (current) marriage. I'm fine with that, since wanton and drunken hook -up sex can be splendid fun for all involved.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Nope, we're all statistics, we're not all special snowflakes.


So why even have this discussion. Let’s just read graphs and statistics, that will explain the world.
You say you worry about young girls entering dating scene with savage young men. But you also seem to fault women for these men behavior, because they too picky.

You criticize other’s points of view but can not take the hit yourself


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> So why even have this discussion. Let’s just read graphs and statistics, that will explain the world.
> You say you worry about young girls entering dating scene with savage young men. But you also seem to fault women for these men behavior, because they too picky.
> 
> You criticize other’s points of view but can not take the hit yourself


What are you talking about, this entire thread is about me taking hits. I don't mind at all. Keep battering away.

Those statistics are important because they move us away from everyone having "their own truth." We see how things play out and the benefits and costs when we aggregate experiences, when we model the behavior and try to find the processes at work.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Personal said:


> As a parent with two daughters one from my first marriage and the other from my second (current) marriage. I'm fine with that, since wanton and drunken hook -up sex can be splendid fun for all involved.


Were we supposed to be doing something else in college?


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> No it’s not. Sex in itself isn’t wrong. There are many people who have open marriages.


How many relationships have exploded from engaging in full CONSENTING threesomes? If there is consent, then why would a relationship be damaged? Because people think they know themselves and they find out that they really don't quite know themselves all that well. They think that they will be fine sitting there on the bed while their partner is screwing/getting screwed, by another, and then they find out that they're freaking out or that some switch in their brain/heart has flipped and they never see their partner the same way again.

So, because so many people understand the process at work with threesomes, regular advice given is that people refrain from embarking on these adventures if they value their relationship. Why though are people giving advice when people like you are saying :"be free" and "do what you want" and such? Where do these people get off believing that saving a relationship is a more valued outcome than getting to experience a threesome?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Every year sees new people entering the porn industry.


Awesome, just like every year people enter the retail industry. And it certainly isn't news, since that's been going on ever since the invention of the Daguerreotype.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> How many relationships have exploded from engaging in full CONSENTING threesomes? If there is consent, then why would a relationship be damaged?


I'm surprised you care, honestly I don't get your desire to want to police other people's sex lives.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> What are you talking about, this entire thread is about me taking hits. I don't mind at all. Keep battering away.
> 
> Those statistics are important because they move us away from everyone having "their own truth." We see how things play out and the benefits and costs when we aggregate experiences, when we model the behavior and try to find the processes at work.


Statistics are important and help us understand world better, the trends etc. however, they do not tell the whole story, because besides being part of statistics, we are also individuals. I think that’s what scews your worldview -you only see it as statistics, while missing the complexity that comes from each of us being different individuals. Yes, all kind of trends have always bern shaping societies, but they were never the whole story of society. The 60s are famous for sex and drugs, but even then there were many people who were mot part of that culture - just one example.
My problem with my girls going to college is not consentual drunk sex . It is fear of rape. I’ve met too many young girls in my work whose lives wrre changed by this.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Personal said:


> I'm surprised you care, honestly I don't get your desire to want to police other people's sex lives.


Save me some time, I don't want to analyze all 3,752 of your comments to see what advice you previously gave to some new member asking whether he should initiate a threesome in his marriage. Well, what did you say or what would you say?


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Charles Murray wrote about some of this in his book "Coming Apart" and noted that will the upper class is very enthusiastically pushing the libertine world view, they're not really practicing it much themselves, they have stable marriages, lower divorce rates, better educate children with fewer dysfunctions, etc. It is those in the lower classes who embrace the libertinism whose lives are suffering turmoil and dysfunction and this human wreckage is causing a lot of problems for society.


Charles Murray, meh. 

Some people are in favor of freedom to divorce, but I think even they encourage others to strive for stable marriages.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> Statistics are important and help us understand world better, the trends etc. however, they do not tell the whole story, because besides being part of statistics, we are also individuals. I think that’s what scews your worldview -you only see it as statistics, while missing the complexity that comes from each of us being different individuals. Yes, all kind of trends have always bern shaping societies, but they were never the whole story of society. The 60s are famous for sex and drugs, but even then there were many people who were mot part of that culture - just one example.
> My problem with my girls going to college is not consentual drunk sex . It is fear of rape. I’ve met too many young girls in my work whose lives wrre changed by this.


If you believe the prevalence of rape on campus is so high, then why send your daughters into that lion's den?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

im curious as to how many peoples relationships have been destroyed byconsentual threesomes as well...

i know a lot more people in real life who have had threesomes than stories found online. and, in real life, i am having hard time thinking of an instance where it blew up the relationship. they either liked it and did it again at some point, didnt like it and decided to try again with someone else, or just decided it wasnt for them. 

usually, the advice is to NOT engage in a threesome when someone isn't ok with it to begin with. otherwise, have at, stay safe, and have fun.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Save me some time, I don't want to analyze all 3,752 of your comments to see what advice you previously gave to some new member asking whether he should initiate a threesome in his marriage. Well, what did you say or what would you say?


But you know, threesome is not a new concept, they just weren’t discussed on open forum. But why do you care about someone elses problems?
Do you have a little controlling issues?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Omg make it stop.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

As'laDain said:


> im curious as to how many peoples relationships have been destroyed byconsentual threesomes as well...
> 
> i know a lot more people in real life who have had threesomes than stories found online. and, in real life, i am having hard time thinking of an instance where it blew up the relationship. they either liked it and did it again at some point, didnt like it and decided to try again with someone else, or just decided it wasnt for them.
> 
> usually, the advice is to NOT engage in a threesome when someone isn't ok with it to begin with. otherwise, have at, stay safe, and have fun.


The clue here is to be found in the infidelity experiences. For the betrayed spouse there are so very many who, intellectually, want to reconcile, they try to engineer that outcome and then when they get what they wished for they find something surprising, their feelings are deadening. On the flipside are the spouses who give the ILYBINILWY speech. Well, why don't they simply change their feelings, after all, they said that they love their spouse, so why don't they just conjure up those in love feelings?

There's stuff going on "under the hood" that can't be controlled by conscious choice. People think they're going to be hunky dory with a threesome, then they see it play out before their very eyes and those "under the hood" processes kick in and something changes in the person.

For your friends, the won the gamble and suffered no, immediate, ill-effects. The point is though it was a gamble, they risked their relationship in order to gain that 3-some experience. Did they know that they were making that gamble?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> If you believe the prevalence of rape on campus is so high, then why send your daughters into that lion's den?


As statistics guy you should know that this is real problem. Way bigger than women enjoying their sex life.

why?Because I can not lock my children in the basement. Because they smart and want to go to college, get degree, earn their own money and be financially independent individuals. You know, kind of why men go to college...

they will for sure will go through special training for girls before going to college - it invlobes not only basic self defence moves, but training in watching your surrounding, recognizing danger, trusting your gut. That’s all I can do, prepare them as much I can and hope for best life for them.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> But you know, threesome is not a new concept, they just weren’t discussed on open forum. But why do you care about someone elses problems?
> Do you have a little controlling issues?


Why do so many woke people care? Why do they constantly try to reform society?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Well, what did you say or what would you say?


I don't recall saying anything, that said my advice would vary depending upon the circumstances shared by the person asking.

So if the person asking is someone who has a healthy attitude towards sex, I would say go for it and have fun. On the other hand if you're asking, I recommend that you don't go there.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> As statistics guy you should know that this is real problem. Way bigger than women enjoying their sex life.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Every year sees new people entering the porn industry.


And how is that related to his or our chikdren?
You raise them right, teach them values and what’s right and wrong, and hope they will make the right choices. But we can not control them.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> How many relationships have exploded from engaging in full CONSENTING threesomes? If there is consent, then why would a relationship be damaged? Because people think they know themselves and they find out that they really don't quite know themselves all that well. They think that they will be fine sitting there on the bed while their partner is screwing/getting screwed, by another, and then they find out that they're freaking out or that some switch in their brain/heart has flipped and they never see their partner the same way again.
> 
> So, because so many people understand the process at work with threesomes, regular advice given is that people refrain from embarking on these adventures if they value their relationship. Why though are people giving advice when people like you are saying :"be free" and "do what you want" and such? Where do these people get off believing that saving a relationship is a more valued outcome than getting to experience a threesome?


Now you've crossed a line. Putting down the threesome, now I know you're just looking to unravel the fabric of modern western civilization.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> View attachment 72987


Assh, “forcible...”. Of course


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> It's ok...you fit in perfectly with MY age group then!!! Lol!!!


Lol think you give me too much credit


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> And how is that related to his or our chikdren?
> You raise them right, teach them values and what’s right and wrong, and hope they will make the right choices. But we can not control them.


"Raising them right" and "teach them values" and "what's right and wrong" are, for the most part, put into your brain by others. We can see changes in values and ideas over time. Once it was right to spank your children. Now it is not. Once it was right to ostracize your homosexual child, now that is wrong. Once is was right to not approve of your child having sex reassignment surgery, now that value is under assault and judges are gagging some parents and preventing them from making their issue public and they're having custody rights taken away from them if they reject this new value.

So my point here is that many people take their values from the zeitgeist of the day, what others have approved, they will adopt as their own. When you say "raise them right" that's not some universal statement where we all recognize what you mean by "raising them right."


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> "Raising them right" and "teach them values" and "what's right and wrong" are, for the most part, put into your brain by others. We can see changes in values and ideas over time. Once it was right to spank your children. Now it is not. Once it was right to ostracize your homosexual child, now that is wrong. Once is was right to not approve of your child having sex reassignment surgery, now that value is under assault and judges are gagging some parents and preventing them from making their issue public and they're having custody rights taken away from them if they reject this new value.
> 
> So my point here is that many people take their values from the zeitgeist of the day, what others have approved, they will adopt as their own. When you say "raise them right" that's not some universal statement where we all recognize what you mean by "raising them right."


You see, be a good person is still universal.
I do accept the fact that my children are of different generation and won’t see many things the way I see them. That’s ok. Doesn’t mean they bed people. 
It seems that you have a problem with accepting the fact that not the whole world follows your rules of life., including (possibly) your children. It keeps coming back to controlling personality.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> "Raising them right" and "teach them values" and "what's right and wrong" are, for the most part, put into your brain by others. We can see changes in values and ideas over time. Once it was right to spank your children. Now it is not. Once it was right to ostracize your homosexual child, now that is wrong. Once is was right to not approve of your child having sex reassignment surgery, now that value is under assault and judges are gagging some parents and preventing them from making their issue public and they're having custody rights taken away from them if they reject this new value.
> 
> So my point here is that many people take their values from the zeitgeist of the day, what others have approved, they will adopt as their own. When you say "raise them right" that's not some universal statement where we all recognize what you mean by "raising them right."


Society has some influence on opinions, but how do you think society adopted the changes you mention if not by individuals rejecting the things "put into their brain by others"?


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Lance Mannion said:


> The clue here is to be found in the infidelity experiences. For the betrayed spouse there are so very many who, intellectually, want to reconcile, they try to engineer that outcome and then when they get what they wished for they find something surprising, their feelings are deadening. On the flipside are the spouses who give the ILYBINILWY speech. Well, why don't they simply change their feelings, after all, they said that they love their spouse, so why don't they just conjure up those in love feelings?
> 
> There's stuff going on "under the hood" that can't be controlled by conscious choice. People think they're going to be hunky dory with a threesome, then they see it play out before their very eyes and those "under the hood" processes kick in and something changes in the person.
> 
> For your friends, the won the gamble and suffered no, immediate, ill-effects. The point is though it was a gamble, they risked their relationship in order to gain that 3-some experience. Did they know that they were making that gamble?


so the clues to the damage caused by threesomes are found in infidelity? so maybe its not about the sex, eh?

threesomes never bothered me at all.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Save me some time, I don't want to analyze all 3,752 of your comments to see what advice you previously gave to some new member asking whether he should initiate a threesome in his marriage. Well, what did you say or what would you say?


The proper advice is think about it as objectively as possible, and take it slow, maybe go to some strip clubs and get some lap dances together to start and see what feelings that brings up. Then as an added buffer do it while away on a trip somewhere. Also if someone has even the slightest apprehension don't.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Whao there now, we aren't all lemmings.










There's still plenty of cultures and lifestyles to choose from, to each their own I say.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Why do so many woke people care? Why do they constantly try to reform society?


Dude, let go of the fear!!! 

Tell me, what are you going to do about your daughter wanting to go to college? What would you do if your children tell you they are gay? What would you do if your child wants to be a woman/man? Do your kids go blindfolded to school? Are they allowed to use the internet? Are they allowed to be themselves?

Your ideas are kind of scary. It's fun and games when you are watching the matrix, but it's kinda creepy when Neo shows up in a marriage forum.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

pastasauce79 said:


> Dude, let go of the fear!!!
> Your ideas are kind of scary. It's fun and games when you are watching the matrix, but it's kinda creepy when Neo shows up in a marriage forum.


🤣 ROTFL


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

On topic, let us go back to discussing how we average joes still manage to get laid despite a strange belief that we aren't 

Not to mention some of us also punching way above our weight!


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> Assh, “forcible...”. Of course


What's the problem?

If you're coming to an understanding of an issue by reading what propagandists have to say, then you're misinformed. Here is an analysis direct from the DOJ - Rape and Sexual Assault Victimization Among College-Age Females, 1995–2013



> For the period 1995–2013, there were no significant differences in the student and nonstudent rates of rape and sexual assault for black non-Hispanics, Hispanics, or persons of other races (table 10). However, among white non-Hispanic females, the rate of victimization was 1.4 times higher for nonstudents (9.2 per 1,000) than for students (6.7 per 1,000). Among female students, the rate of rape and sexual assault was slightly higher for whites (6.7 per 1,000) than for Hispanics (4.5 per 1,000), but did not differ significantly from the rate for blacks (6.4 per 1,000). *The rate of rape and sexual assault was 1.6 times higher for females ages 18 to 19 not enrolled in college* (10.4 per 1,000) than for female students in the same age group (6.6 per 1,000). Among females ages 20 to 21, the rate of victimization was 1.5 times higher for nonstudents (8.9 per 1,000) than students (5.8 per 1,000). There was no significant difference in the rate of rape and sexual assault for students and nonstudents ages 22 to 24.


Understand? Your daughters are safer from a threat of rape when being on campus than if they are not enrolled. Also notice that the claim 1 in 5 college women are raped is completely bogus.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> The proper advice is think about it as objectively as possible, and take it slow, maybe go to some strip clubs and get some lap dances together to start and see what feelings that brings up. Then as an added buffer do it while away on a trip somewhere. Also if someone has even the slightest apprehension don't.


I agree that this is fairly sensible. I'd extend it by analogizing to risk prevention, so something like fire insurance or wearing seat belts in the car. The upshot here is this question - how much is your marriage worth to you and how much risk will you tolerate compared to how much gain you will receive from that 3-some experience.

Your advice provides a means of trying to put some value on how that risk is measured, they're no longer pulling numbers from the air, they're using milder, but somewhat related experiences and gauging how they react.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> What's the problem?
> 
> If you're coming to an understanding of an issue by reading what propagandists have to say, then you're misinformed. Here is an analysis direct from the DOJ - Rape and Sexual Assault Victimization Among College-Age Females, 1995–2013
> 
> ...


It seems that you are more horrified of your daughter enjoying sex with fraternity boys than of the risk of rape. 
again,Because of my work, I am seeing these girls all the time. First raped by some guy, then hushed by the school, adding insult to injury. They often change schools while guy stays. 
You see, these are things that terrify me. Not the fact that other people have different ideas for life.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> It seems that you are more horrified of your daughter enjoying sex with fraternity boys than of the risk of rape.
> again,Because of my work, I am seeing these girls all the time. First raped by some guy, then hushed by the school, adding insult to injury. They often change schools while guy stays.
> You see, these are things that terrify me. Not the fact that other people have different ideas for life.


Seeing how so many universities are eager to convict young men for imaginary rape crimes, I find it out that a real case of rape is being hushed up by any school, and of course the police too. If the school investigated and found the claim unsubstantiated, even by their kangaroo court standards, then something is off.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Holy crap, this thread seems to have gone off the rails.

One of the statistics that I've seen is that roughly 80% of women end up responding to or pursuing the "top" 20% of guys. Assuming that is even a little bit close what would that imply?

Some thoughts: exactly 20% of guys and some smaller percentage of the "bottom" 20% of women in all of OLD would be happy with the situation. Lots and lots of guys would need to send lots and lots of likes and messages to get any attention which makes both the guys sending the messages and the women getting the messages annoyed and frustrated. The "middle" 50% of women are going to be dissatisfied with what they're left with more than likely or they wouldn't be pursuing the top candidates who are likely unattainable. It doesn't _necessarily_ imply female promiscuity but it does say that there's opportunity if they want to.

I don't actually know if this was accurate or not but it is conventional wisdom and widely quoted. Ironically, Freud talked a lot about Penis Envy while in this particular situation lots of guys end up with Vagina Envy.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't believe those stats about numbers before premarital sex at all. No one gives you their numbers, to begin with. And I can tell you that the 1970s, before any diseases to scare people off from sex, more people were having sex outside of marriage than than any other time in my lifetime, by far. A whole generation of young people we're having casual sex. No not everyone of course, but it is starkly different from how it is the last decades.


This barbarian came from the philosophy from the sixties and a hookup in 1970.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Aw, you could be my son.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Aw, you could be my son.


Probably. My mom was 16 in the summer of 70'.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I was 17 in the summer of 70, just graduated high school..


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I was 17 in the summer of 70, just graduated high school..


*



*


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> Whao there now, we aren't all lemmings.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wait...isn't that Donkey Kong...??


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Wait...isn't that Donkey Kong...??


Nope, wrong computing decade... And Donkey Kong didn't blow up into lots of colourful specks


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Damn I was hoping it's something else, because that's not something I can easily stop saying! lol


That's because your partner is a child. You robbed the cradle, man. It looks like you made a good choice - picked someone at your own maturity level.

My BIL's third wife was the lucky charm for him - she taught middle-schoolers for a living.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Blondilocks said:


> That's because your partner is a child. You robbed the cradle, man. It looks like you made a good choice - picked someone at your own maturity level.
> My BIL's third wife was the lucky charm for him - she taught middle-schoolers for a living.


Actually she's beyond my maturity level, I turned out to be the child of the relationship  
So in reality, she robbed me!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Seeing how so many universities are eager to convict young men for imaginary rape crimes, I find it out that a real case of rape is being hushed up by any school, and of course the police too. If the school investigated and found the claim unsubstantiated, even by their kangaroo court standards, then something is off.


Just no. The rape is a problem. The cover up is a problem. In ten year in my work, we did not have even one guy coming and complaining of being accused of rape for no reason. We had dozens of girls who actually were raped. 

What's imaginary is the notion that false rape accusations are the norm. No, they are not. The real rapes are underreported, because of the attitude like yours, dismissive, worrying more about "poor" boys, who are actually doing just fine. The false rape accusations are around 3% (and considering rapes are underreported, that number is even lower).


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> Just no. The rape is a problem. The cover up is a problem. In ten year in my work, we did not have even one guy coming and complaining of being accused of rape for no reason. We had dozens of girls who actually were raped.
> 
> What's imaginary is the notion that false rape accusations are the norm. No, they are not. The real rapes are underreported, because of the attitude like yours, dismissive, worrying more about "poor" boys, who are actually doing just fine. The false rape accusations are around 3% (and considering rapes are underreported, that number is even lower).


Watch it to the end... Just trust me on that.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> Watch it to the end... Just trust me on that.


Thank you for sharing @As'laDain . Right on the money. This guy is always very commond sense and down to earth.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


>


Such a cry baby song.

How about this one, it's all about feelings and sexual freedom.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Why do so many woke people care? Why do they constantly try to reform society?


you are the one who bring the threesome into the discussion. I don't care about threesome, but I also do not care if someone else does it. Not my problem.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> I have children I worry about. I want to minimize the damage to them from the sewer culture we have.


Move to an isolated island then. Problem solved. 

If reality is too hard, too scary, too much, you can always leave.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I honestly think that men are not happy with the women on the market today, and when they can’t get the women they want they go into this red pill, MGTOW nonsense and they get mad and it makes them feel better about themselves to get together with a group of like minded men and blame it on the women and their “high expectations”. 

Because there are women who like these men, but not that type of women they want. It’s the same that goes for women, the ones we really like don’t want us. The problem is, when we don’t accept the ones that like us/ are good for us because they aren’t good enough. It goes both ways. But for some reason men are making a thing about .

Women are not made like they use to me, this is true. But men are not made like they use to be either.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I would love to have the world be a safe place for my daughter to grow up in. I would also love to live in a world that has no need for my chosen profession. But let's be realistic... That will never happen. The best I can do is mitigate risks as much as possible and be the kind of person I wish everyone was. 

I really don't want to have to worry about other people trying to dictate how i live, or dictate to me who i am. I certainly won't try to dictate to my daughter who she is or how she will live. I will teach her to the best of my ability so that she can take care of herself and live as freely as she can. As fully as she can. 

I choose to be who I am, and that works pretty well for me. Now, this is a guess, but i would imagine everyone wants to be able to live their life as they see fit, without judgement. 

But then again, i am also one of the ones that the INCEL types usually use as an example of what's wrong with society. After all, i have three committed partners, and am in the begining phases of an intimate relationship with a 4th lol. It's not fair!

I always get that response. Like I'm taking something away from others by being polyamorous. I usually get this response from people who spend their time trying to control others. My approach is to spend my time trying to empower the people in my life. I want them to feel better _about themselves_ for having known me. I don't want someone to be so devoted to me that they could never think of leaving... I want to see them feel completely free to leave me without guilt or hard feelings. 

I am attracted to those kinds of people, so it just makes sense to me that other people are attracted to those kinds of people as well.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> I honestly think that men are not happy with the women on the market today, and when they can’t get the women they want they go into this red pill, MGTOW nonsense and they get mad and it makes them feel better about themselves to get together with a group of like minded men and blame it on the women and their “high expectations”.
> 
> Because there are women who like these men, but not that type of women they want. It’s the same that goes for women, the ones we really like don’t want us. The problem is, when we don’t accept the ones that like us/ are good for us because they aren’t good enough. It goes both ways. But for some reason men are making a thing about .
> 
> Women are not made like they use to me, this is true. But men are not made like they use to be either.


Isn't it kind of entitled attitude? I want the beauty queen, even though I myself have a beer gut and do not take care of myself. Then the beauty queen rejects him, and he is all offended.
You want to get the best, you need to at least to try be your best.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

WandaJ said:


> Isn't it kind of entitled attitude? I want the beauty queen, even though I myself have a beer gut and do not take care of myself. Then the beauty queen rejects him, and he is all offended.
> You want to get the best, you need to at least to try be your best.


I think this works for attitude as well, because for ME, a man who is "the best" would be someone who enjoys life and makes me laugh and loves sex, because that's what I will bring to HIS life...and that matters more to me than how he looks.
In fact, if he wants to talk to me about things (in a nice way) and have sex every day, he could be 300lbs and I would think he was HOT!!! Lol!


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

WandaJ said:


> Isn't it kind of entitled attitude? I want the beauty queen, even though I myself have a beer gut and do not take care of myself. Then the beauty queen rejects him, and he is all offended.
> You want to get the best, you need to at least to try be your best.


I can’t agree more. I think some people can see every speck in other people’s eye but not the plank in their own. 

And I think entitled is the perfect word for it.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> But then again, i am also one of the ones that the INCEL types usually use as an example of what's wrong with society. After all, i have three committed partners, and am in the begining phases of an intimate relationship with a 4th lol. It's not fair!


But wait...is that really "committed" though...? 

Or are you defining commitment differently than I am...?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

mildly related, but i am a paid member of a MGTOW forum. have been for years. a lot of MGTOW men dont actually have much against women... a lot of them know full well that their bad experience is with the one woman they got burned by. a big part of their problem is the way the government handles things during a divorce. a lot of them ended up having their pay and their kids taken away from them after their spouses cheated and left them. and its the government that is the one that threatens them with violence and incarceration if they dont suck it up and find a way to deal with it... 

so yea, their issue is often more directed at our current legal system than it is towards women. their solution is to just disengage so that it cant be done to them again.

that said, they do often end up with INCEL types trying to get into the forums. they usually get the boot.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> But wait...is that really "committed" though...?
> 
> Or are you defining commitment differently than I am...?


well, i never plan on leaving them, so...

i have been polyamorous for about a decade, and have been married for 12 years. im committed to my wife.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> I think this works for attitude as well, because for ME, a man who is "the best" would be someone who enjoys life and makes me laugh and loves sex, because that's what I will bring to HIS life...and that matters more to me than how he looks.
> In fact, if he wants to talk to me about things (in a nice way) and have sex every day, he could be 300lbs and I would think he was HOT!!! Lol!


yes. Because being at your best is not limited to your body, far from it.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I also think it’s how it makes US feel. Like a lot of people “feel” successful when they make a lot of money. I think when they have a super attractive/“high quality” partner it makes THEM feel good about themselves. So if the women that like you are all short and fat and illiterate it makes you feel bad about yourself. 

So I agree that obviously we want the person to treat us well. But it’s more than that, it’s how we feel about ourselves based off of putting extra meaning towards things like money, our jobs, our partner. (And I am guilty of this too).


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Charles Murray wrote about some of this in his book "Coming Apart" and noted that will the upper class is very enthusiastically pushing the libertine world view, they're not really practicing it much themselves, they have stable marriages, lower divorce rates, better educate children with fewer dysfunctions, etc. It is those in the lower classes who embrace the libertinism whose lives are suffering turmoil and dysfunction and this human wreckage is causing a lot of problems for society


There are a few things you have to recognize. You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? 

Upper class society can push ideas, anyone can, you are pushing your ideas. It's easier said than done, isn't it?

Of course upper class has more freedoms than lower class, that's the advantage of being rich. Poverty is hard to break because you need resources to get out, resources that are not available to you if you are poor. 

Education is very important. Coming from a third world country, I'm disappointed in American education. 

You like polls and surveys. Is standardized testing keeping our kids uneducated? Is this why we are prey for "cultural propaganda"? If you are expecting critical thinking then standardized testing needs to go out the window. There's no standard answer for individual thinking. And, aren't you promoting your own "propaganda" which satisfies your own personal opinions on a social issue? But, YOUR personal opinion is just that, your opinion, nothing more, nothing less. 

What's the goal of your posts? Because Isee you as a hurt, resentful, socially immature male who has an inflated ego walking around with a "better than you" attitude who is terrified of female sexuality. 

What's the deal with you? Do you need an appointment with Sigmund Freud?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Girl_power said:


> I honestly think that men are not happy with the women on the market today, and when they can’t get the women they want they go into this red pill, MGTOW nonsense and they get mad and it makes them feel better about themselves to get together with a group of like minded men and blame it on the women and their “high expectations”.
> 
> Because there are women who like these men, but not that type of women they want. It’s the same that goes for women, the ones we really like don’t want us. The problem is, when we don’t accept the ones that like us/ are good for us because they aren’t good enough. It goes both ways. But for some reason men are making a thing about .
> 
> Women are not made like they use to me, this is true. But men are not made like they use to be either.


I think it's a reaction to not having success, I don't think there is a lot of good information about how to do that and people are too nice. No one is going to say to these men or women, lose some weight, dress better. Stop sharing to much on a first date it makes people uncomfortable. You jokes are corny stop making them. You need to have more to talk about then yourself. Get your nose fixed. Shave your head. You need to look like you can provide a good future so you need a better job, and some roots. Instead they are polite and say, I don't understand it, you seem like a good catch to me. Or they say stupids stuff like "looks are not that important", "It shouldn't matter how much you make", "you're not fat you're curvy", all bull****. Which causes them to get frustrated and angry because they think it's unfair. But lots of times it's - no you are not very good at this and you need to improve. I think most Men can handle that, that is in our wheelhouse. We want to fix the problem, but if you tell us there is no problem then we get angry.

Also the media has spent decades telling men stories about dumpy, loser men with super hot women, because they have a heart of gold. Or even super sweet guys, get the girl because of how nice they are. This is the equivalent to the Disney princess happily ever after thing with girls. I watched Pretty In Pink the other day with my wife. First time I ever saw it. The Ducky character is painful to watch. He is the perfect example of how NOT to make yourself attractive. There is also one moment where he kisses the older friend, and she is really turned on but he is too stupid to even notice. (I want to see the movie where he does, but that is another story.)

Honestly thought it's one of the most realistic depictions of how lots and lots of teenage boy's think, especially if their fathers don't tell them to man up. I could relate a little bit. I was like that in high-school. It took me a while to figure out that I was coming across wrong (20 maybe), it also took some confidence that came with life. I really feel like a lot of these men haven't got there, and they may never.

But this kind of immature thinking is reinforced through media. I think there are some reason for that, one is because of the Victorian values we used to have, I don't believe the culture has really done a good job of explaining what is attractive to women, particularly how women's sexual nature works. Also there is a lot of money to be made in what is attractive to adolescent girls (boy bands and such) so you get a lot of that, this kind of sweet and syrupy stuff. But once you get to adulthood that is not what they are looking for. I honestly think a lot of these guys are still trying to fulfill that role. Again no one talks to them about being too nice. Frankly since the advent of advertising and the realization that teenagers are a good demographic to target disposable spending we have had a very juvenile approach to relationships in general. Much of the media we consume is targeted for that age group. Which in my mind is very different in it's thinking. I think all these mixed signals really hurt a lot of men. Unfortunately that is where they are getting their info from.

I also think the absence of a father or a male role model contributes to problems for both sexes. We don't teach and try to harness men's nature anymore, if it's discussed it's usually vilified. Think about what was expected of Men 70 years ago and what is today? It's very different. I personally think men are like steel, we need to be harder on them not softer. “Iron sharpens iron." That is when they grow and thrive. Give the very high expectations and they rise to them and grow confident be generally happier. 

That stuff would be painful at first but it may change their luck.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

sokillme said:


> I think it's a reaction to not having success, I don't think there is a lot of good information about how to do that and people are too nice. No one is going to say to these men or women, lose some weight, dress better. Stop sharing to much on a first date it makes people uncomfortable. You jokes are corny stop making them. You need to have more to talk about then yourself. Get your nose fixed. Shave your head. You need to look like you can provide a good future so you need a better job, and some roots. Instead they are polite and say, I don't understand it, you seem like a good catch to me. Which causes them to get frustrated and angry.
> 
> That stuff would be painful at first but it may change their luck.


The good friend would say those things. the problem is if you do not have that good friend either.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> I think it's a reaction to not having success, I don't think there is a lot of good information about how to do that and people are too nice. No one is going to say to these men or women, lose some weight, dress better. Stop sharing to much on a first date it makes people uncomfortable. You jokes are corny stop making them. You need to have more to talk about then yourself. Get your nose fixed. Shave your head. You need to look like you can provide a good future so you need a better job, and some roots. Instead they are polite and say, I don't understand it, you seem like a good catch to me. Which causes them to get frustrated and angry.
> 
> That stuff would be painful at first but it may change their luck.


Exactly, today there is no such thing as constructive criticism. If you suggest to an unhealthy obese friend that they stop eating fast food twice a day and go for a walk now and then you're being, judgmental, destroying their self esteem, telling them they shouldn't be happy with who they are. You're just supposed to sit and listen to them complain about how they feel like crap, can't get a date, and the doctor just put them on another med to treat a symptom caused by their obesity, and them tell them how great the seem to be doing.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Exactly, today there is no such thing as constructive criticism. If you suggest to an unhealthy obese friend that they stop eating fast food twice a day and go for a walk now and then you're being, judgmental, destroying their self esteem, telling them they shouldn't be happy with who they are. You're just supposed to sit and listen to them complain about how they feel like crap, can't get a date, and the doctor just put them on another med to treat a symptom caused by their obesity, and them tell them how great the seem to be doing.


that's not really constructive criticism. You think obese friend doesn't know those things? You want to help your friend, get him/her to go for those walks with you. If you really are good friends, than you find a way to talk about it. If you are not good friends, it is not your business to tell them what to do.

Obesity is visible, so everybody not obese thinks they can criticize it . But each of us does things that we should not , but they are not visible to others.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I don't get why it has to be all rocket science really, five words pretty much sums up a universal standard for success and that is simply "be nice but be firm". You don't have be Captain America to score a date either, though it does improve your chances.

If people aren't happy with those in the market well that's fair, find another market. I have to admit that I found much better matches offline than online, though it does take a bit more creativity on how to strike a conversation and/or hit on someone randomly without being a creep, which is what I do. Sometimes you have to improvise, like I did with a love note.

For my partner to this day she keeps the original note with her at all times, it's romantic after all and it's a story to tell when it comes to 'how we met'. Compared to well, 'I met her on a dating site'... no offence.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> I don't get why it has to be all rocket science really, five words pretty much sums up a universal standard for success and that is simply "be nice but be firm". You don't have be Captain America to score a date either, though it does improve your chances.


"be nice but be firm - pretty good summary


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> I don't get why it has to be all rocket science really, five words pretty much sums up a universal standard for success and that is simply "be nice but be firm". You don't have be Captain America to score a date either, though it does improve your chances.
> 
> If people aren't happy with those in the market well that's fair, find another market. I have to admit that I found much better matches offline than online, though it does take a bit more creativity on how to strike a conversation and/or hit on someone randomly without being a creep, which is what I do. Sometimes you have to improvise, like I did with a love note.
> 
> For my partner to this day she keeps the original note with her at all times, it's romantic after all and it's a story to tell when it comes to 'how we met'. Compared to well, 'I met her on a dating site'... no offence.


friend: "how did you meet?"

my wife: "he sent me a message on yahoo personals and then ghosted for five weeks"

me: "we met while i was in the Special Forces Qualifications Course"

my wife: "don't try to church it up..."


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

WandaJ said:


> The good friend would say those things. the problem is if you do not have that good friend either.


People tend to hang with people like themselves. So if they are you good friend they might not see it.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

As'laDain said:


> friend: "how did you meet?"
> my wife: "he sent me a message on yahoo personals and then ghosted for five weeks"
> me: "we met while i was in the Special Forces Qualifications Course"
> my wife: "don't try to church it up..."


 Hahahaha


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

WandaJ said:


> "be nice but be firm - pretty good summary


It is, and I actually learnt it from here many years ago from a forgotten post. Those five words always resonated, echoed, and over the years I realised how deep the meaning actually is.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> I don't get why it has to be all rocket science really, five words pretty much sums up a universal standard for success and that is simply "be nice but be firm". You don't have be Captain America to score a date either, though it does improve your chances.
> 
> If people aren't happy with those in the market well that's fair, find another market. I have to admit that I found much better matches offline than online, though it does take a bit more creativity on how to strike a conversation and/or hit on someone randomly without being a creep, which is what I do. Sometimes you have to improvise, like I did with a love note.
> 
> For my partner to this day she keeps the original note with her at all times, it's romantic after all and it's a story to tell when it comes to 'how we met'. Compared to well, 'I met her on a dating site'... no offence.


To me it's about honor and respect. Be honorable and treat everyone with respect, including yourself.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I think you've hit exactly on it!
> 
> Sh!t. The 80s were great. We must be about the same age.


A truely great decade for music! I am of the MTV generation myself. Back when it was worth watching. Along with Night Trax and Headbangers Ball.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> friend: "how did you meet?"
> 
> my wife: "he sent me a message on yahoo personals and then ghosted for five weeks"
> 
> ...


lol


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> A truely great decade for music! I am of the MTV generation myself. Back when it was worth watching. Along with Night Trax and Headbangers Ball.


I am getting my teenagers hooked up on 80s (and older stuff too


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

WandaJ said:


> that's not really constructive criticism. You think obese friend doesn't know those things? You want to help your friend, get him/her to go for those walks with you. If you really are good friends, than you find a way to talk about it. If you are not good friends, it is not your business to tell them what to do.
> 
> Obesity is visible, so everybody not obese thinks they can criticize it . But each of us does things that we should not , but they are not visible to others.


I would only really address it with a friend if they were constantly complaining about it but never did anything about it. Thats what bugs me, people will sit there and complain about being fat and they have this medical problem and that medical problem and their cholesterol is sky high and on and on. Honestly, If you don't have any intention of fixing the problem don't whine about it. Don't sit at lunch with me telling me that your doctor told you you're at high risk for heart disease and your trying so hard to get healthy while you're eating country fried steak slathered in gravy with 4 biscuits covered in butter washing it down with 3 large cokes. A good friend will get tough love from me, stop being a slob dummy, is what they will likely hear. Though if they are a good friend of mine they would know to expect it. 

It is similar to the INCEL boys living in their parents house at 28 years old working at a car wash 24 hours a week eating junk food and surfing the internet all day then complaining women aren't attracted to them. Self improvement in small steps is easy, a little will power and daily minimal effort is all it takes. Too many people prefer to complain about their problems rather than addressing them.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Exactly, today there is no such thing as constructive criticism. If you suggest to an unhealthy obese friend that they stop eating fast food twice a day and go for a walk now and then you're being, judgmental, destroying their self esteem, telling them they shouldn't be happy with who they are. You're just supposed to sit and listen to them complain about how they feel like crap, can't get a date, and the doctor just put them on another med to treat a symptom caused by their obesity, and them tell them how great the seem to be doing.



Yeah, great self esteem doesn't necessarily make a hot date.

We need to tell kids they are competing. When you date you are competing against others, so you better be on your best. Instead we say, everyone has a soulmate, you deserve to be loved? What a terribly unhealthy message.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

sokillme said:


> Yeah, great self esteem doesn't necessarily make a hot date.
> 
> We need to tell kids they are competing. When you date you are competing against others, so you better be on your best. Instead we say, everyone has a soulmate, you deserve to be loved? What a terribly unhealthy message.


But we also don’t want to put on a good act and pull a bait and switch. We want to encourage people to really be their best, not necessarily “act” their best.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Waaaaah... I'm so out of the loop. I had to google INCEL... 




__





Incel - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org




It's actually a thing!!! Sorry a bit of a late comer to this whole thing... there's even FEMCELs!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

sokillme said:


> Yeah, great self esteem doesn't necessarily make a hot date.
> 
> We need to tell kids they are competing. When you date you are competing against others, so you better be on your best. Instead we say, everyone has a soulmate, you deserve to be loved? What a terribly unhealthy message.


I never believed in soulmates until I met my partner. Yes there is some element of competence you must have, every one has their standards, but you can tick every box and still fall short. 

That was my FWB-turned-GF before my partner, she had every quality I was looking for, but I never loved her. When I ended our relationship after realising that I could never love her (or anyone else romantically) I thought to myself I'm simply too sociopathic for love. Then the fking stars aligned, but truth be told, if I had met my partner when I was even less mature than I am now - like when I was married, she would never have given me a chance in hell.

Soulmates do exist, but you can't sit on your hands either when it comes to making yourself a better person.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Yeah, great self esteem doesn't necessarily make a hot date.
> 
> We need to tell kids they are competing. When you date you are competing against others, so you better be on your best. Instead we say, everyone has a soulmate, you deserve to be loved? What a terribly unhealthy message.


competing? huh. i never thought of myself as competing. when i am depressed or in a bad mood, or worried about what someone else is thinking, i get less attention. when i am enjoying myself, i get a lot of attention. 

my advice is to usually find something fun and share the experience rather than try to compete for someones attention.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

As'laDain said:


> competing? huh. i never thought of myself as competing. when i am depressed or in a bad mood, or worried about what someone else is thinking, i get less attention. when i am enjoying myself, i get a lot of attention.
> 
> my advice is to usually find something fun and share the experience rather than try to compete for somenes attention.


I read it as competence rather than competing


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

oldtruck said:


> women have always been selective.
> pre internet days women hunted for husbands at school, work, introductions
> through family, relatives, friends, neighbors. So the pool of men to choose from was
> limited.
> ...


Those are the ones you say "keep walking, nothing for you here. Go look for you another Fboy im looking for a wife worthy woman"


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Exactly on target.
> 
> In a nutshell, men marry the women they want, women marry the men they can get.
> 
> ...


Hence the more partners she has had tge less satisfied with the one he has now.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> I never believed in soulmates until I met my partner. Yes there is some element of competence you must have, every one has their standards, but you can tick every box and still fall short.
> 
> That was my FWB-turned-GF before my partner, she had every quality I was looking for, but I never loved her. When I ended our relationship after realising that I could never love her (or anyone else romantically) I thought to myself I'm simply too sociopathic for love. Then the fking stars aligned, but truth be told, if I had met my partner when I was even less mature than I am now - like when I was married, she would never have given me a chance in hell.
> 
> Soulmates do exist, but you can't sit on your hands either when it comes to making yourself a better person.


I believe that if soulmates exist, we each have LOTS of them!!!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> well, i never plan on leaving them, so...
> 
> i have been polyamorous for about a decade, and have been married for 12 years. im committed to my wife.


Ah, that makes a little more sense than how I've always defined it...COOL!!!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Divinely Favored said:


> Hence the more partners she has had tge less satisfied with the one he has now.


Do YOU really believe that...??


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> Hence the more partners she has had tge less satisfied with the one he has now.


no, not really


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Divinely Favored said:


> Hence the more partners she has had tge less satisfied with the one he has now.


If that’s true, it would be true for both genders. The more people your with the more you have to compare to. With literally everything, sex, kissing, looks, how they treat you, Job/income etc.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I actually find it that I was more satisfied with every next partner (not that it was that many) - it might be also because I was getting more experienced too, so sex was getting better in general.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> I believe that if soulmates exist, we each have LOTS of them!!!


Heh not for me though, if I did I would have known what love is prior to being 31 yrs of age.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> I never believed in soulmates until I met my partner. Yes there is some element of competence you must have, every one has their standards, but you can tick every box and still fall short.
> 
> That was my FWB-turned-GF before my partner, she had every quality I was looking for, but I never loved her. When I ended our relationship after realising that I could never love her (or anyone else romantically) I thought to myself I'm simply too sociopathic for love. Then the fking stars aligned, but truth be told, if I had met my partner when I was even less mature than I am now - like when I was married, she would never have given me a chance in hell.
> 
> Soulmates do exist, but you can't sit on your hands either when it comes to making yourself a better person.


Let me challenge you on that. You didn't meet anyone you clicked with until you met this women, but that doesn't make her the only one out there. Soulmates mean the only one, I don't believe in that. I think there are a few people out there who you have great chemistry with.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> competing? huh. i never thought of myself as competing. when i am depressed or in a bad mood, or worried about what someone else is thinking, i get less attention. when i am enjoying myself, i get a lot of attention.
> 
> my advice is to usually find something fun and share the experience rather than try to compete for someones attention.


Life is about competing though, there are finite resources, there are finite opportunities. My point is there are no participation trophies unless you ware a celebrity's kid or born very rich and even that doesn't really guarantee success.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

sokillme said:


> Life is about competing though, there are finite resources, there are finite opportunities. My point is there are no participation trophies unless you ware a celebrity's kid or born very rich and even that doesn't really guarantee success.


Or happiness...!!


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> Just no. The rape is a problem. The cover up is a problem. In ten year in my work, we did not have even one guy coming and complaining of being accused of rape for no reason. We had dozens of girls who actually were raped.
> 
> What's imaginary is the notion that false rape accusations are the norm. No, they are not. The real rapes are underreported, because of the attitude like yours, dismissive, worrying more about "poor" boys, who are actually doing just fine. The false rape accusations are around 3% (and considering rapes are underreported, that number is even lower).


Denver police concluded that over 40% of the rape accusations they investigated had been PROVEN false. It's an open question how many of the remaining were false but could not be proven to be so.

In most cases rape is simply a "he said, she said" matter, the physical evidence of sex doesn't prove rape.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Denver police concluded that over 40% of the rape accusations they investigated had been PROVEN false. It's an open question how many of the remaining were false but could not be proven to be so.
> 
> In most cases rape is simply a "he said, she said" matter, the physical evidence of sex doesn't prove rape.


Snd how were they proven false? The guys said so?


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> I honestly think that men are not happy with the women on the market today, and when they can’t get the women they want they go into this red pill, MGTOW nonsense and they get mad and it makes them feel better about themselves to get together with a group of like minded men and blame it on the women and their “high expectations”.
> 
> Because there are women who like these men, but not that type of women they want. It’s the same that goes for women, the ones we really like don’t want us. The problem is, when we don’t accept the ones that like us/ are good for us because they aren’t good enough. It goes both ways. But for some reason men are making a thing about .
> 
> Women are not made like they use to me, this is true. But men are not made like they use to be either.


There's definitely some truth to what you write.

By the time those good women are looking for those MGTOW guys, those guys no longer want them because they're pissed off, they don't want old women who rejected these types of guys when they were both younger. The women spent their youth with the men that they desired, meanwhile those rejected guys had long dry spells and were turned down by a lot of women. Bitterness developed.

A woman's youth is a very prized commodity, and I'm not even talking about just her physical beauty, but her personality too, there is an exuberance to youth, a twinkle in her eye, a sense of adventure and show me the world, and as women get older they tend to get more serious, more jaded, which is to be expected. Those bitter guys never got the best of what those older women had to offer and they make the calculation that it's better for them to do their own thing, thus leaving women wondering "where have all of the good men gone." This is, actually, a pretty new phenomenon. We've never seen so many single men and women in their 30s before. Recall only 50 years ago the mean age of marriage was 20-22.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> Snd how were they proven false? The guys said so?


Come on, if police bought that as a defense during the investigatory stage, then there'd be zero rape arrests. They actually found some evidence because they were investigating in depth, taking witness testimony, etc. so massive holes appeared in the woman's story. For many other accusations there was no evidence of an actual false claim, but also no supporting evidence of rape.

As for your earlier comment about feeling sorry for the guys, yeah, everyone is entitled to the presumption of innocence EVEN when accused of rape.

If I were on a jury I would NEVER convict a man on ONLY a "he said, she said" level of evidence. Beyond a reasonable doubt. If this means that some rapists are not convicted, that's far, far better than convicting an innocent man simply on the basis of a woman who is experiencing regret rape of has some other motive for accusing him of rape.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> Isn't it kind of entitled attitude? I want the beauty queen, even though I myself have a beer gut and do not take care of myself. Then the beauty queen rejects him, and he is all offended.
> You want to get the best, you need to at least to try be your best.


It is an entitled attitude and the guys who hold that attitude can get friendly with Rosie Palmer. 

That attitude though is much rarer among men than women. Women actually have a magic power which allows them to get with those highly desired men, at least they can get a romp in, but then the women get angry when they can't lock that guy down.

In the real world, women are pretty big believers in socialism and the redistributive state, they are big supporters of "fairness" and "equal outcomes." However, when we look at the sexual market place, hooboy, this is where we see women become huge supporters of a form of liberty - let every woman have a shot at capturing that 10-level guy, no way should a 5-level woman have to be stuck with a 5-level guy.

A 5-level guy has no freaking chance with that 10-level woman he desires. A 5-level woman can get with that 10-level guy, but she doesn't have enough on offer to keep that 10-level guy, yet she still feels deeply entitled to have him. 

So this entitled attitude you refer to is, while somewhat present in the male population, predominantly a woman thing.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I think this works for attitude as well, because for ME, a man who is "the best" would be someone who enjoys life and makes me laugh and loves sex, because that's what I will bring to HIS life...and that matters more to me than how he looks.
> In fact, if he wants to talk to me about things (in a nice way) and have sex every day, he could be 300lbs and I would think he was HOT!!! Lol!


I'm not arguing with you here, just want to point out that your preferences means that there is no readily available selection process by which you can weed out candidates. You have to invest time in every eligible man in order to determine if he shows you those qualities. That said, that process of meeting and interacting with new men can be enjoyed in its own right, but that sure does slow down the process of finding that guy you want.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> I also think it’s how it makes US feel. Like a lot of people “feel” successful when they make a lot of money. I think when they have a super attractive/“high quality” partner it makes THEM feel good about themselves. So if the women that like you are all short and fat and illiterate it makes you feel bad about yourself.
> 
> So I agree that obviously we want the person to treat us well. But it’s more than that, it’s how we feel about ourselves based off of putting extra meaning towards things like money, our jobs, our partner. (And I am guilty of this too).


I agree about how that makes them feel good about themselves.

I can only speak from a man's perspective but I can get a very deep level of satisfaction from two mental processes I have about my wife. My love for her and her beauty. I won't write much about the love aspect because every man and woman can generate that deep satisfaction for their own spouse, so that's nothing novel. The beauty thing though is interesting. I can do this with my wife when I think about her, look at her, see her picture, but I also do this when I see a photo of truly beautiful woman. I'm not talking about anything sexual here, just her face. Beauty is really not in the eye of the beholder, it is an objective reality. Good facial symmetry, sparkling eyes, etc. trigger something in my brain, it's like looking at a perfect sunset vista, there is a sense of awe which comes at looking at something beautiful. You can study a beautiful woman's face for a long time and find deep satisfaction from doing that which you can't find by studying an ordinary woman's face. I'm pretty sure that women do the very same with a very handsome man's face, or physique, without it being a sexual thing.

So when a man has a truly beautiful woman on his arm, you bet, he's feeling like a King.

For those of us who are not Greek Gods, we simply have to rely on the wonder of love. Which ain't bad, you know.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> Education is very important. Coming from a third world country, I'm disappointed in American education.


You shouldn't be, it produces some of the best results in the world. Not the top, but close to it. Don't rely on those faulty international surveys, they have deep methodological flaws.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> If you are expecting critical thinking then standardized testing needs to go out the window. There's no standard answer for individual thinking. And, aren't you promoting your own "propaganda" which satisfies your own personal opinions on a social issue? But, YOUR personal opinion is just that, your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.


We can no more teach critical thinking than we can make a lazy man into an industrious man. We can show methods and tools of critical thinking, just like we can show a lazy man how to work efficiently and industriously. Critical thinking is something you do, or don't do, it's a mindset, not really a method.

So, you contrasting critical thinking against standardized tests is a false comparison. We can have both. There is no conflict.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> There's definitely some truth to what you write.
> 
> By the time those good women are looking for those MGTOW guys, those guys no longer want them because they're pissed off, they don't want old women who rejected these types of guys when they were both younger. The women spent their youth with the men that they desired, meanwhile those rejected guys had long dry spells and were turned down by a lot of women. Bitterness developed.
> 
> A woman's youth is a very prized commodity, and I'm not even talking about just her physical beauty, but her personality too, there is an exuberance to youth, a twinkle in her eye, a sense of adventure and show me the world, and as women get older they tend to get more serious, more jaded, which is to be expected. Those bitter guys never got the best of what those older women had to offer and they make the calculation that it's better for them to do their own thing, thus leaving women wondering "where have all of the good men gone." This is, actually, a pretty new phenomenon. We've never seen so many single men and women in their 30s before. Recall only 50 years ago the mean age of marriage was 20-22.


No women wants a MGTOW man.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Lance Mannion said:


> I'm not arguing with you here, just want to point out that your preferences means that there is no readily available selection process by which you can weed out candidates. You have to invest time in every eligible man in order to determine if he shows you those qualities. That said, that process of meeting and interacting with new men can be enjoyed in its own right, but that sure does slow down the process of finding that guy you want.


Well, MAYBE...but I won't really use my intellect to choose a partner, I will use my feelings more (intellect a little, I suppose), so it takes time anyway...especially because at 50yrs old, guys are just LINED UP around the block now that I'm single!!! Lol!

Ok, but in all seriousness, I think it will be easier to find a guy I like with preferences that aren't looks-based, because looks can always be deceiving. The guy I find that I want will just be the first guy I really hit it off with, who thinks I'm special and wants ME too, and who will make it so I can't think of wanting any other guys!!! I don't need to invest time in EVERY eligible man, just one at a time.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Honestly thought it's one of the most realistic depictions of how lots and lots of teenage boy's think, especially if their fathers don't tell them to man up.


I read an excellent analysis that ties to this, it was published in the Wash. Post, written by Mark Bauerlein (a professor of English) and titled "Why Johnny Can't Read."

How teenage boys think is a function of how they are socialized and educated. What's changed over the years is that boys are abandoning reading. The fall-off is quite dramatic, they're just not engaging with books. Bauerlein talks a lot of why this ha happened. Feminists and liberals have captured control of the education bureaucracy and they're really pushing a Youth Literature which is focused on novels where the protagonists are a.) mostly young girls, b.) the protagonist is facing some social dysfunction, an alcoholic parent, molestation, living with a mother who is a prostitute, living with a father who beats the mother, etc. What's been entirely removed from the curriculum are epic stories, stories with male heroes. Bauerlein also referenced research that girls are equally engaged with novels where the protagonist is a boy or a girl. Doesn't really matter to girl readers. Boys though are not so keen on reading books about girl protagonists, they are more enthusiastic about books with boy protagonists. So, given this reality, what to do the educators do? The stick with their decision to feature more girl-focused books, because their ideology of female empowerment is more important than delivering improved educational results.

So, with books removing male hero role-models and boys disengaging from reading, that's one source of socicalization which boys are denied, this means that slack needs to be picked up by other socialization agents, and that's not happening.

I'll add onto Bauerlein's analysis. Look at movies, especially sci-fi. Boys loved Star Wars, so of course they had to create a female lead with Rey. Action figure sales tanked. We have to go back to Harry Potter to find a young boy hero in a movie. So with books and movies taken out of the male socialization game, of course we're raising generations of lost boys.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Exactly, today there is no such thing as constructive criticism. If you suggest to an unhealthy obese friend that they stop eating fast food twice a day and go for a walk now and then you're being, judgmental, destroying their self esteem, telling them they shouldn't be happy with who they are. You're just supposed to sit and listen to them complain about how they feel like crap, can't get a date, and the doctor just put them on another med to treat a symptom caused by their obesity, and them tell them how great the seem to be doing.


For some weird reason we've come to be propagandized into the belief that being judgemental is a bad thing.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> If that’s true, it would be true for both genders. The more people your with the more you have to compare to. With literally everything, sex, kissing, looks, how they treat you, Job/income etc.


Actually not. Men and women are different from each other. You're WANTING the IDEAL to be the same. Kind of like saying that men and women should be equally strong and should be equally able to join the military and be an infantry soldier.

Men bond with women though repeated sexual acts, the repetition of sex also distorts how the man views his woman, she becomes more beautiful to him. The brain is a piece of meat bath in a chemical soup. Perceptions and beliefs are influenced by those chemicals. All one needs do to verify this is to head over to the CWI sub-forum and read tales of WS spouses walking around like zombies, rapidly falling out of love with their spouse, suddenly becoming indifferent, and swooning over some loser they affaired-down with.

Women set benchmarks and expectation of mates and are strongly influenced by past mating choices. There's none of this repeated sex makes the mate better stuff going on.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> So, you contrasting critical thinking against standardized tests is a false comparison. We can have both. There is no conflict.


This is your opinion, though. 

Show me the graphs, the surveys, etc., etc.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> This is your opinion, though.
> 
> Show me the graphs, the surveys, etc., etc.


You're just waving a red cape in front of a bull.


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## Imperfections (Nov 26, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> No women wants a MGTOW man.


She couldn’t have him even if she wanted to...’cos, you know, he will just go ‘their’ own way. I have seen some of those men, wandering about, never asking for directions or anything..just keep going. Their own way. 
(Must be some of the saddest acronyms of the 21st century).


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Imperfections said:


> She couldn’t have him even if she wanted to...’cos, you know, he will just go ‘their’ own way. I have seen some of those men, wandering about, never asking for directions or anything..just keep going. Their own way.
> (Must be some of the saddest acronyms of the 21st century).


I tried to give some directions but they just wouldn’t listen


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

sokillme said:


> Let me challenge you on that. You didn't meet anyone you clicked with until you met this women, but that doesn't make her the only one out there. Soulmates mean the only one, I don't believe in that. I think there are a few people out there who you have great chemistry with.


If so, they are very rare in my case to the point of non existence akin to finding two or more unicorns rather than one. I have a very specific wavelength. Maybe I'm unlucky in that way, but quite frankly, I think I'm already lucky enough


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Imperfections said:


> She couldn’t have him even if she wanted to...’cos, you know, he will just go ‘their’ own way. I have seen some of those men, wandering about, never asking for directions or anything..just keep going. Their own way.
> (Must be some of the saddest acronyms of the 21st century).





Girl_power said:


> I tried to give some directions but they just wouldn’t listen


I personally know of a couple that met by asking for directions. Certainly not MGTOW though, same with INCEL must be an American thing. Never seen anything of that here, but who knows, maybe they are hiding in the basement... but wait, we don't have basements here...


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Imperfections said:


> She couldn’t have him even if she wanted to...’cos, you know, he will just go ‘their’ own way. I have seen some of those men, wandering about, never asking for directions or anything..just keep going. Their own way.
> (Must be some of the saddest acronyms of the 21st century).


In the olden days these guys used to be known as "confirmed bachelors." MGTOW is making a statement with that identifier, it's a political statement though, they don't like the structure of society in regards to customs and laws. A confirmed bachelor is just a guy who likes his own company and has no need of a woman.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> In the olden days these guys used to be known as "confirmed bachelors." MGTOW is making a statement with that identifier, it's a political statement though, they don't like the structure of society in regards to customs and laws. A confirmed bachelor is just a guy who likes his own company and has no need of a woman.


I think that’s great. People choosing how to live their own lives.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> You're just waving a red cape in front of a bull.


Soy "matadora" for a reason... Don't make me bring out the Spanish in me. 

"El matador de almas no mata cien almas; mata una alma sola, cien veces. "


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> In the olden days these guys used to be known as "confirmed bachelors." MGTOW is making a statement with that identifier, it's a political statement though, they don't like the structure of society in regards to customs and laws. A confirmed bachelor is just a guy who likes his own company and has no need of a woman.


Some of what would have been called confirmed bachelors in bygone days are now known as gay. But there are also men who aren't gay but are content to be alone.

I think it is good if people ask themselves what will make them happy and not just do what they think is expected of them. I think many people get married when they're expected to, to whom they're expected to, with unhappy results.

I've heard differing things about MGTOW, if they're just choosing an unconventional path, fine. If they think registering a grievance is going to get them somewhere, good luck.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> If so, they are very rare in my case to the point of non existence akin to finding two or more unicorns rather than one. I have a very specific wavelength. Maybe I'm unlucky in that way, but quite frankly, I think I'm already lucky enough


I think you will be surprised. What if I told you that lots of of soulmates at 30 grow apart at 50. What you are really talking about is chemistry but it's not something that is magical, and that kind of thinking can lead to trouble if you are not careful. It's still something you have to work on. Just don't give your partner too much power over your life, you should never look at them as the one and only.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

sokillme said:


> I think you will be surprised. What if I told you that lots of of soulmates at 30 grow apart at 50. What you are really talking about is chemistry but it's not something that is magical, and that kind of thinking can lead to trouble if you are not careful. It's still something you have to work on. Just don't give your partner too much power over your life, *you should never look at them as the one and only.*


If you're a Christian and you believe in Heaven and Hell and you want to live in God's grace, then this belief-set will induce certain behaviors and attitudes in how your live your life, how you conduct yourself.

If you believe your spouse is your one and only, then you should conduct yourself in your marriage as though you are blessed to be with your spouse and this will likely strengthen the marriage.

If the marriage turns south and you want to pull the plug, this is where I think your advice comes in, don't be scared to because you think that they're your one and only and that you will never find another. Just tell yourself that they weren't your one and only and now you're going to search for that true love.

I have pretty realist views on most matters, but realism really isn't conducive to romance, so sometimes I have to put realism aside and jump into romanticism with both feet, so Fake It Until You Make It.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lance Mannion said:


> I read an excellent analysis that ties to this, it was published in the Wash. Post, written by Mark Bauerlein (a professor of English) and titled "Why Johnny Can't Read."
> 
> How teenage boys think is a function of how they are socialized and educated. What's changed over the years is that boys are abandoning reading. The fall-off is quite dramatic, they're just not engaging with books. Bauerlein talks a lot of why this ha happened. Feminists and liberals have captured control of the education bureaucracy and they're really pushing a Youth Literature which is focused on novels where the protagonists are a.) mostly young girls, b.) the protagonist is facing some social dysfunction, an alcoholic parent, molestation, living with a mother who is a prostitute, living with a father who beats the mother, etc. What's been entirely removed from the curriculum are epic stories, stories with male heroes. Bauerlein also referenced research that girls are equally engaged with novels where the protagonist is a boy or a girl. Doesn't really matter to girl readers. Boys though are not so keen on reading books about girl protagonists, they are more enthusiastic about books with boy protagonists. So, given this reality, what to do the educators do? The stick with their decision to feature more girl-focused books, because their ideology of female empowerment is more important than delivering improved educational results.
> 
> ...


Why are you so passive. Men let this happen not feminists and liberals. Men abdicating our responsibility for cheap sex, and instant gratification, generally being driven by our desires and not what is best for our families and society. By abandoning their role as leaders and fathers (and I don't me bosses, sometimes a leader has to be a servant) . By not holding other men accountable. By abusing our role and taking women and children for granted. For allowing our wives to be our mothers. And all we need to get it back is to start acting like men again. The world is crying out for it. 

But that is through honor and self discipline. The world is set up for us to succeed if we just act like that, it's like rain and the seasons. It's no harder then that. Within a generation everything would be better. 

Seriously you can't be pro man and father and be whining about liberals and feminists. As long as it's the liberals and feminists fault nothing will change.

You know who the biggest hero to a young boy is -- his father. No book or school is ever going to compete with that. A young boy with a strong father can read all about strong female protagonists and not have any trouble with it because he has the best role modal at home if his father is a good one. Yep it's that simple, you don't even need to vote about it.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> Why are you so passive. Men let this happen not feminists and liberals. Men abdicating our responsibility for cheap sex, and instant gratification, generally being driven by our desires and not what is best for our families and society. By abandoning their role as leaders and fathers (and I don't me bosses, sometimes a leader has to be a servant) . By not holding other men accountable. By abusing our role and taking women and children for granted. For allowing our wives to be our mothers. And all we need to get it back is to start acting like men again. The world is crying out for it.
> 
> But that is through honor and self discipline. The world is set up for us to succeed if we just act like that, it's like rain and the seasons. It's no harder then that. Within a generation everything would be better.
> 
> ...


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Why are you so passive. Men let this happen not feminists and liberals. Men abdicating our responsibility for cheap sex, and instant gratification, generally being driven by our desires and not what is best for our families and society. By abandoning their role as leaders and fathers (and I don't me bosses, sometimes a leader has to be a servant) . By not holding other men accountable. By abusing our role and taking women and children for granted. For allowing our wives to be our mothers. And all we need to get it back is to start acting like men again. The world is crying out for it.
> 
> But that is through honor and self discipline. The world is set up for us to succeed if we just act like that, it's like rain and the seasons. It's no harder then that. Within a generation everything would be better.
> 
> ...


Men abdicated. Men also allowed women the right to vote. It's a long sordid history of abdication of power. But they're not abdicating in a vacuum, liberals and feminists are pushing men, they're working on fulfilling their agendas.

I have no idea why you think I'm passive. I'm not in charge of HS curricula, I'm not a Hollywood executive. I control what I can in my companies and in my marriage and in my family and among my social network. I have zero influence in Hollywood or with radical feminist educationalists.

Your whole spiel about fathers being heroes is Tony Robbins level aspirational garbage. Most men lead ordinary lives, doing ordinary things. They're not heroes, they're just responsible men leading by example. You're making the same definitional error that Oprah always made when she began the trend of calling victims heroes. Victims endured their fate. Heroes step up and do something extraordinary. The Mercury 7 astronauts were heroes, Audie Murphy was a hero, Lewis and Clark were heroes, Davy Crocket was a hero. These are the figures which inspire boys to greatness.

Your Hallmark sentiments are good for greeting cards, not for an ideology to guide one's life.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lance Mannion said:


> Men abdicated. Men also allowed women the right to vote. It's a long sordid history of abdication of power. But they're not abdicating in a vacuum, liberals and feminists are pushing men, they're working on fulfilling their agendas.
> 
> I have no idea why you think I'm passive. I'm not in charge of HS curricula, I'm not a Hollywood executive. I control what I can in my companies and in my marriage and in my family and among my social network. I have zero influence in Hollywood or with radical feminist educationalists.
> 
> ...


Really, - the right to vote. I can't believe I even have to say this.

Show me a (normal well adjusted) women with a good husband and she will vote with his best interest in mind because it will be their interest. Show me a daughter who grew up with a good protective but loving father whom she admires and respects and I will show you a women who will consider him when she votes (I also don't have to say well adjusted because she will be). Show me a (normal well adjusted) women with a son and she will fight like hell for him. 95% of all of all the advances that women have had in the past 100 years are things they should have had in the first place. It's to our shame that they had to fight so hard for it. Maybe the difference between you and me is I think women are great, I want them with me as I succeed, I like having them there. I have so many in my life who enrich it and I benefit from them just being around, from their input, from their different take on life. I am not afraid of that, I desire it and use it, I enjoy it.

Are there some ****ty women out there? Yes, does 3rd wave feminism go to far? Sure, but I am not that worried. Both Men and WOMEN will push back against that once they really see what it is. Have Men been abused by women? Hell yeah they have. Just like Women have been abused by Men. So yes there are divorced Mothers who try to separate their kids from their Fathers, but their are Fathers that do the same thing but they may do it by not contributing financially to their kid. One thing I am always stuck by is, why don't the parents being estranged from their kids join forces both women and men. Bet a hell of a lot more would get done. That is the point. God made us to work together, we both bring things to the table that the other doesn't have. Do a lot of unfair things happen to Men that they don't deserve? Of course they happen to everyone. But like Clint Eastwood said - "Deserving has nothing to do with it". That's life man. Don't judge a whole gender on the worst of them. That is what the crazy kind of feminists do.

You talk about fathers and heroes, I can only speak about my own. The older I get the more I am keenly aware he will not be here much longer, and there will be a giant void in my life. Let me tell you about what a hero he was to me. My Dad lettered in collage, made his whole career about sports for the most part. Was a great athlete. I was a kid who was not very big, very average athletically, but was nerdy, into Star Wars, comics stuff like that. My Dad was like, shrug, don't really get it but whatever. Yet he took me every time it came back in the theater. When Empire Strikes Back came out we drove for an hour on that first Friday after he worked all day and stood in line for over an hour because he knew it was very important to my preteen year old self. But he didn't just take me he took me to one of only 5 theaters in the country that had surround sound. So I saw Empire Strikes Back the way it was meant to be seen, unlike 90% of the country on the first real box office night, This was in 1981 when they didn't do this Wednesday night 100 screen stuff. That happened for me because my father took something that didn't care about and he didn't just make it happen, he used his power over my life as the adult and he made happen like he would want if he did care, since I didn't have power to do so. How did he even know the soundtrack was in surround, that was like one of the if not the first film to have that. He must have researched or read about it. Like I said it was a work night and we could have just gone to some rinky-dink theater 10 minutes away like they had back then, (not sure if you are old enough to remember, it wasn't stadium seating let me tell you). That was so ****ing cool that he did that. I look back on my life now and I see so many times he did that. You can have Lewis and Clark, if ****ing Superman was real, I would take my Dad (and I would have even when I was a kid). Give me a man like that any day. Every father has the potential to be that in his kids life.

I don't know how long you have been on this board, but I don't think anyone would say I lack confidence, not that different in real life either. I am that way because of my Father, not my Mother, my Father. She taught me emotional intelligence and empathy. Just as important but he taught me what it was to be a Man. Because he got **** done, but he also was thoughtful, and did stuff like make what he knew was an important day for his preteen son one of his best days, that his son still remembers years later. Thankfully when I hit about 13 I started getting into sports so we had that to bond over, but even if we didn't we would have had something. He would have made sure. If you have a Man like that in your life, if someone tells you masculinity is toxic you want to laugh at them, because that right there, IS masculinity, at it's best it's about using it's power to make things for everyone great, and there damn sure isn't anything toxic about it. It's just as wonderful as a mothers love.

Look I don't even disagree with you about some of the messages coming out of education and Hollywood, I just disagree with how you think you are going to change it. You remind me of the evangelicals I have known who think they are going to change the world back to Christ through the voting box, when the only real way to do that is to be a shining example of his message, that is the best an only thing that they have. Same goes here. I am not trying to insult you, I am really not, but I have to say I think you are on the wrong track. We Men just need to be Men. Which means we take care of our ****, we take care of our families and we lead. Sometimes that means saying no when it's hard and all we are going to get is crap for it, sometimes it means finding one of 5 theaters in the whole country and sacrificing to do so, so the ones we love have great lives AT OUR EXPENSE. That is what we are made to do. We are not going to get any reward for that. And we are always going to get a lot of ****. It won't be easy and we will probably suffer. That is what it is to be a Man. No one says great job, it's just expected. That is not a curse it's an honor. That IS THE REWARD.

Men are just expected to have it together and be great. Whenever they don't people get really upset. That is all you need to know about us. Nothing says what the world really thinks about us then that and there can be no higher complement. If we start doing that again no one is going to complain.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Really, - the right to vote. I can't believe I even have to say this.


You missed the thematic linkage. Women have the right to vote because men gave it to them. If the men of that era had instead stood their ground and said "We men vote for the benefit of our family's interest, not our own, so you women don't need to vote" the women wouldn't have had a democratic method of getting the vote. If this is too sensitive an issue, I can explain the same process in a family. The parents control the finances of the household. The kids decide that they want a say, an equal say, in how the family's money is to be spent. No matter what the kids do, if the parents refuse to give up control, the kids are out of luck. Only if the parents decide to make the kids equal partners in the family's finances will the kids have an equal say.



> Show me a (normal well adjusted) women with a good husband and she will vote with his best interest in mind because it will be their interest. Show me a daughter who grew up with a good protective but loving father whom she admires and respects and I will show you a women who will consider him when she votes (I also don't have to say well adjusted because she will be). Show me a (normal well adjusted) women with a son and she will fight like hell for him. 95% of all of all the advances that women have had in the past 100 years are things they should have had in the first place. It's to our shame that they had to fight so hard for it. Maybe the difference between you and me is I think women are great, I want them with me as I succeed, I like having them there. I have so many in my life who enrich it and I benefit from them just being around, from their input, from their different take on life. I am not afraid of that, I desire it and use it, I enjoy it.


This is bordering very close to the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy. Every instance I could show you of this not being true would garner the response "Well, she's clearly not a normal well adjusted woman."

Single women vote noticeably different from married women, but even that is not an absolute. There are plenty of married women who vote Democrat against the interests of their family, voting to redistribute money from their family to the households of strangers.



> You talk about fathers and heroes, I can only speak about my own.


But you actually shouldn't be doing that. Here's why. Not everyone is like you. This is something that we should all have as one of our first filters when it comes to talking about public policy. Back in the day when welfare was being debated, lots of women were very sympathetic to the plight of single mothers. The opponents, rightly, noted that it would be dangerous to create an incentive system for women to get pregnant in order to receive public benefits. The women in favor of welfare responded "I would never do that. That's unimaginable." Sure, it's unimaginable for a fine civic reforming lady to do that. NOT EVERY WOMAN IS LIKE HER.

Not every father is like your father. What do you tell the young boy whose father is an alcoholic or a wife beater or a convict? Are those fathers heroes to their sons? 

Fathers shouldn't expect a pat on the back and worship from their children for simply doing their duty as a parent. The rewards of parenthood are sufficient, no need to make fathers heroes. Heroes are semi-mythic entities, they serve as models to which young boys can aspire, to reach levels of greatness, to be brave, to be respected, to be a leader of men, to try one's hardest to not just be ordinary. We started this dialog, you and I, about the problems of men and how social institutions and the culture are failing to produce the types of men that used to walk the earth. Well, the way back is through cultural reformation, not through aggrandizing fathers' egos. Boys outgrow their stage of hero worship (troubling that so many adult men love super-hero movies) and become men, but they understand that those heroes they looked up to when younger helped them to dream big. A father is there to guide his son, impart lessons, serve as a role model, but he can't be the mythic hero that the boy dreams of becoming and for one simple reason, most fathers are not mythic heroes, they are not extraordinary men who inspire others to reach for greatness.



> We Men need to just be Men. Which means we take care of our ****, we take care of our families and we lead. Sometimes that means saying no when it's hard and all we are going to get is crap for it, sometimes it means finding one of 3 theaters in the whole country and sacrificing to do so, so the ones we love have great lives AT OUR EXPENSE. That is what we are made to do. We are not going to get any reward for that. That is what it is to be a Man. No one says great job, it's just expected. That is not a curse it's an honor. That IS THE REWARD.


Most every single father who posts on this forum meets your criteria. You see it in almost every story on CWI - the man with the cheating wife wants to find some way to keep his family together because he wants to be their for his kids. Ironically, most of the advice on this forum is betrayed-centric - "divorce in order to repair yourself, your kids will be fine."

The problematic fathers that need their heads knocked together are not visitors here, they're the guys who abandoned their kids. Here, you're preaching to the converted.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Wow, @sokillme , your homage to your father brought tears to my eyes. It's beautiful. Thank you.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

ccpowerslave said:


> 6’4” here, wife is 5’4”. To her I guess I was head and shoulders above the rest?


Exactly! Im 6'05" and wife is 5'03" but we fit together perfectly. Her attitude is like a pit bull so she makes up for height. She calls me Big Daddy and i call her Little Momma.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't believe those stats about numbers before premarital sex at all. No one gives you their numbers, to begin with. And I can tell you that the 1970s, before any diseases to scare people off from sex, more people were having sex outside of marriage than than any other time in my lifetime, by far. A whole generation of young people we're having casual sex. No not everyone of course, but it is starkly different from how it is the last decades.


I would wonder with all the hookup sites now. I bet there is definatelt far more adultry.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> Who cares!! Are you happily married? Then Why worry about single people?


 Because i have 2 sons and the pool of morally decent girls is dismal in todays time.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Life is about competing though, there are finite resources, there are finite opportunities. My point is there are no participation trophies unless you ware a celebrity's kid or born very rich and even that doesn't really guarantee success.


I guess I'm just weird. I'm sure it is a competition, but it seems like the more aware of that fact someone is, the less competitive they become. My wife often has a hard time wrapping her head around the way I end up attracting young women without trying. I usually tell her it is precisely because I am not trying to win anything, I'm just enjoying myself.

It reminds of the old thomas merton quote:

When an archer is shooting for nothing He has all his skill.
If he shoots for a brass buckle
He is already nervous.
If he shoots for a prize of gold
He goes blind
Or sees two targets –
He is out of his mind.

His skill has not changed, But the prize
Divides him. He cares,
He thinks more of winning
Than of shooting –
And the need to win
Drains him of power.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Divinely Favored said:


> Because i have 2 sons and the *pool of morally decent girls is dismal in todays time.*


I'm not so sure this is true, really.....

I grew up as a teen in the early mid 80's..I'd contend that girls back then put out FAR more easily then the girls do today(if I believe my almost 18 year old daughter-and I do)...After HS, it was the club/ cocaine scene and the fun and games just continued...Several girls in my senior year of HS dropped out due to pregnancy while none of my daughters classmates have...

Just because perhaps technology has made it easier, doesn't mean that's actually what's happening...All I know is that if you wanted sex at that time, it really wasn't very hard to find or get...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> Hence the more partners she has had tge less satisfied with the one he has now.


I don't know...

Mrs. Conan had a lot of partners and two marriages before me and then she hit the jack pot!😉


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

sokillme said:


> I think you will be surprised. What if I told you that lots of of soulmates at 30 grow apart at 50. What you are really talking about is chemistry but it's not something that is magical, and that kind of thinking can lead to trouble if you are not careful. It's still something you have to work on. Just don't give your partner too much power over your life, you should never look at them as the one and only.


Not to worry mate - if we grow apart, then it happens. Even though we consider each other soulmates, doesn't mean we take it easy or that we don't have our own challenges. Nor does it include allowing anyone to walk over us, including each other.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

sokillme said:


> Really, - the right to vote. I can't believe I even have to say this.
> 
> Show me a (normal well adjusted) women with a good husband and she will vote with his best interest in mind because it will be their interest. Show me a daughter who grew up with a good protective but loving father whom she admires and respects and I will show you a women who will consider him when she votes (I also don't have to say well adjusted because she will be). Show me a (normal well adjusted) women with a son and she will fight like hell for him. 95% of all of all the advances that women have had in the past 100 years are things they should have had in the first place. It's to our shame that they had to fight so hard for it. Maybe the difference between you and me is I think women are great, I want them with me as I succeed, I like having them there. I have so many in my life who enrich it and I benefit from them just being around, from their input, from their different take on life. I am not afraid of that, I desire it and use it, I enjoy it.
> 
> ...


wow, @sokillme , that was one hell of the great post. Hats down to your dad.

btw - masculinity isn't toxic. Masculinity is awesome. But there is something called toxic masculinity, and that's a separate thing


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Divinely Favored said:


> Hence the more partners she has had tge less satisfied with the one he has now.





WandaJ said:


> no, not really


Right!! Why couldn't this also mean, the more partners someone has (because it's NOT just women who could be unsatisfied after multiple partners), the more they actually value someone special when they finally meet them...?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Right!! Why couldn't this also mean, the more partners someone has (because it's NOT just women who could be unsatisfied after multiple partners), the more they actually value someone special when they finally meet them...?


exactly. Not mentioning, who would take clumsy teenager or not much more who was your first over a man who knows what he is doing?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> I guess I'm just weird. I'm sure it is a competition, but it seems like the more aware of that fact someone is, the less competitive they become. My wife often has a hard time wrapping her head around the way I end up attracting young women without trying. I usually tell her it is precisely because I am not trying to win anything, I'm just enjoying myself.
> 
> It reminds of the old thomas merton quote:
> 
> ...


I mean in the context of dating, you need to understand when you go out on a first date you are competing with all the other guys she could potentially go out on a first date with, so you should present yourself in the best light.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Not everyone is like you


You should follow your own advice. 

P.S. Have you noticed how many posters support your propaganda?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

LisaDiane said:


> Right!! Why couldn't this also mean, the more partners someone has (because it's NOT just women who could be unsatisfied after multiple partners), the more they actually value someone special when they finally meet them...?


Errr, I dunno... I'm not sure the number of partners I had made any difference. But maybe that's just me.

I value my partner now because of who she is and what she means to me. I didn't value the ones in the past because I simply didn't love them. If my partner breaks up with me tomorrow, and I find someone else, my value for her would again also be based on who she is and what she means to me, rather than past experiences.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> No it’s not. Sex in itself isn’t wrong. There are many people who have open marriages.


They are still committing adultry, which is wrong Biblically.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Personal said:


> I'm surprised you care, honestly I don't get your desire to want to police other people's sex lives.


Its not policing...its warning. People destroy marriages with so called good ideas and lustful thoughts.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Eh, it works for us.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> The clue here is to be found in the infidelity experiences. For the betrayed spouse there are so very many who, intellectually, want to reconcile, they try to engineer that outcome and then when they get what they wished for they find something surprising, their feelings are deadening. On the flipside are the spouses who give the ILYBINILWY speech. Well, why don't they simply change their feelings, after all, they said that they love their spouse, so why don't they just conjure up those in love feelings?
> 
> There's stuff going on "under the hood" that can't be controlled by conscious choice. People think they're going to be hunky dory with a threesome, then they see it play out before their very eyes and those "under the hood" processes kick in and something changes in the person.
> 
> For your friends, the won the gamble and suffered no, immediate, ill-effects. The point is though it was a gamble, they risked their relationship in order to gain that 3-some experience. Did they know that they were making that gamble?


Or the spouse that really wanted a 3some them selves plays it up and talks the other spouse into it. Then guess what? Its my turn now to have 2 guys/2 girls now. From my perspective as a man i could not get past seeing some other guy with my wife. Someone may not leave the room.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> I am getting my teenagers hooked up on 80s (and older stuff too


My 20 yr old loves SRV. Taught himself to play and has electric, acustic, semi-hollowbody, base and drums. He was most talented boy and his GF was most talented girl(artistic ability)


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Girl_power said:


> If that’s true, it would be true for both genders. The more people your with the more you have to compare to. With literally everything, sex, kissing, looks, how they treat you, Job/income etc.


It tends not to be same with men. I guess the ability to compartmentalize. Men become more bonded to the one they are having lots of sex with.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

hamadryad said:


> I'm not so sure this is true, really.....
> 
> I grew up as a teen in the early mid 80's..I'd contend that girls back then put out FAR more easily then the girls do today(if I believe my almost 18 year old daughter-and I do)...After HS, it was the club/ cocaine scene and the fun and games just continued...Several girls in my senior year of HS dropped out due to pregnancy while none of my daughters classmates have...
> 
> Just because perhaps technology has made it easier, doesn't mean that's actually what's happening...All I know is that if you wanted sex at that time, it really wasn't very hard to find or get...


The town i work in has 3 HS and the teen pregnancy is up there. Seems there are so many girls seeking love by throwing it out there. The hookups are prevalent around here. My youngest(15) had girls chasing him. He did not have many friends because he said all they wanted to talk about was drinking, drugs and sex. He chose to take online school and will find a girlfriend after graduation when he is in Seminary. Better odds she has not been passed around the boys if she is set on that. There are issues in all decades. Girlfriend i took to prom and broke up with, pulled a train at a party with 4 guys on HS ball team. Boy i dodged a bullet with that one.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Divinely Favored said:


> The town i work in has 3 HS and the teen pregnancy is up there. Seems there are so many girls seeking love by throwing it out there. The hookups are prevalent around here. My youngest(15) had girls chasing him. He did not have many friends because he said all they wanted to talk about was drinking, drugs and sex. He chose to take online school and will find a girlfriend after graduation when he is in Seminary. Better odds she has not been passed around the boys if she is set on that. There are issues in all decades. Girlfriend i took to prom and broke up with, pulled a train at a party with 4 guys on HS ball team. Boy i dodged a bullet with that one.


IDK what's going on in your town, but nationally teen pregnancy has dropped greatly from 1990-2018.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> The town i work in has 3 HS and the teen pregnancy is up there. Seems there are so many girls seeking love by throwing it out there. The hookups are prevalent around here. My youngest(15) had girls chasing him. He did not have many friends because he said all they wanted to talk about was drinking, drugs and sex. He chose to take online school and will find a girlfriend after graduation when he is in Seminary. Better odds she has not been passed around the boys if she is set on that. There are issues in all decades. Girlfriend i took to prom and broke up with, pulled a train at a party with 4 guys on HS ball team. Boy i dodged a bullet with that one.


You know, there are all kinds of kids, same as adults. it's never the whole school like that. in my kids high school there are party kids, of course, quite famous. But my daughter is not part of these circles, she has her own friends, smart, well adjusted. 

You will find what you looking for.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

SpinyNorman said:


> IDK what's going on in your town, but nationally teen pregnancy has dropped greatly from 1990-2018.


The highest school has the farm kids, rolling in the hay ya know!

Pregnancy may be down due to the use of BC i think the the instances of teen sex are still prevalent.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> The highest school has the farm kids, rolling in the hay ya know!
> 
> Pregnancy may be down due to the use of BC i think the the instances of teen sex are still prevalent.


teen sex was always a thing


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> wow, @sokillme , that was one hell of the great post. Hats down to your dad.
> 
> btw - masculinity isn't toxic. Masculinity is awesome. But there is something called toxic masculinity, and that's a separate thing


Toxic masculinity is in the eye of the beholder, defined by their ideology. It's not really "a thing" with universal definition. In this way it's no different that toxic femininity.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Right!! Why couldn't this also mean, the more partners someone has (because it's NOT just women who could be unsatisfied after multiple partners), the more they actually value someone special when they finally meet them...?


Not really. This is a statistical exercise. The odds of you working your way through 30 guys and on meeting the 31st guy you find that he's the best one of the lot are very low. The best of the lot is more likely to be one of the other 30 guys but HE DIDN'T WANT YOU. This now creates the double-whammy, he was the best for you and you're still pining for him because he's "the one that got away."

Your scenario? Could happen, but it's like winning a raffle, odds of 1 in X.

All that said, by the time you get to that 31st dream guy, you've been changed, and ****ed, by 30 other guys. You've suffered multiple disappointments, multiple heartbreaks, perhaps some infidelities and physical abuse if you were unlucky. You've been used up by life, by romance, by relationships. You're likely tired, unenthusiastic, you have your guard up. No matter how great a match he is for you, how good are you for him? Better for him to find a lower mileage woman.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> exactly. Not mentioning, who would take clumsy teenager or not much more who was your first over a man who knows what he is doing?


Because a woman's ability to bond to her man is diminished by the number of men she's been with. Ceterus parisbus, the first loves are the ideal, just make sure you pick a good one.

The clumsy teenager concern only applies to the beginning. Practice makes perfect. The way we have set up age of consent laws pretty much insures that women are always going to have their first with a clumsy teenager.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> You should follow your own advice.
> 
> P.S. Have you noticed how many posters support your propaganda?


What is correct and incorrect is not determined by popular vote. Oh brother, I have my work cut out for me.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> teen sex was always a thing


When's the last time you heard any teen talk about "going steady?" Yeah, teen sex has always been a thing, ALWAYS. What hasn't always been a thing is hook-ups. Teen sex in the past was more associated with ongoing relationships, marriage-in-training.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Not really. This is a statistical exercise. The odds of you working your way through 30 guys and on meeting the 31st guy you find that he's the best one of the lot are very low. The best of the lot is more likely to be one of the other 30 guys but HE DIDN'T WANT YOU. This now creates the double-whammy, he was the best for you and you're still pining for him because he's "the one that got away."
> 
> Your scenario? Could happen, but it's like winning a raffle, odds of 1 in X.
> 
> All that said, by the time you get to that 31st dream guy, you've been changed, and ****ed, by 30 other guys. You've suffered multiple disappointments, multiple heartbreaks, perhaps some infidelities and physical abuse if you were unlucky. You've been used up by life, by romance, by relationships. You're likely tired, unenthusiastic, you have your guard up. No matter how great a match he is for you, how good are you for him? Better for him to find a lower mileage woman.


Bunch of judgmental junk --- pure fictional thoughts.

I'm assuming you think the same of men, right? Women better find a lower mileage man or else he's gonna be used up, tired, and unenthusiastic?!!!!


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> When's the last time you heard any teen talk about "going steady?" Yeah, teen sex has always been a thing, ALWAYS. What hasn't always been a thing is hook-ups. Teen sex in the past was more associated with ongoing relationships, marriage-in-training.


********. I was a teen in the late 80s and there were hook ups galore going on.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Livvie said:


> Bunch of judgmental junk --- pure fictional thoughts.
> 
> I'm assuming you think the same of men, right? Women better find a lower mileage man or else he's gonna be used up, tired, and unenthusiastic?!!!!


Men and women are different from each other. When's the last time you felt the urge to pick up your husband and carry him to the bedroom? When's the last time you had the urge to have your husband do a striptease for you and to put on sexy lingerie for you?

If male virginity was highly desired by women, then Incels would be taking appointments with women like you.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Men and women are different from each other. When's the last time you felt the urge to pick up your husband and carry him to the bedroom? When's the last time you had the urge to have your husband do a striptease for you and to put on sexy lingerie for you?
> 
> If male virginity was highly desired by women, then Incels would be taking appointments with women like you.


You can't even keep your talking points straight.

What does an urge to pick my husband up, have him do a striptease, and put on sexy underwear have to do with the fact that you postulate WOMEN with a sex partner count of 30 are used up and tired but MEN with a sex partner count of 30 are not? 

Ain't got nothing to do it. 

Like I said, what you said is a bunch of derogatory sexist junk.

Oh and by the way. A male striptease is HOT and so is sexy male underwear and I'M NOT THE ONLY WOMAN TO THINK SO.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Livvie said:


> Oh and by the way. A male striptease is HOT and so is sexy male underwear and I'M NOT THE ONLY WOMAN TO THINK SO.


*



*


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Not really. This is a statistical exercise. The odds of you working your way through 30 guys and on meeting the 31st guy you find that he's the best one of the lot are very low. The best of the lot is more likely to be one of the other 30 guys but HE DIDN'T WANT YOU. This now creates the double-whammy, he was the best for you and you're still pining for him because he's "the one that got away."
> 
> Your scenario? Could happen, but it's like winning a raffle, odds of 1 in X.
> 
> All that said, by the time you get to that 31st dream guy, you've been changed, and ****ed, by 30 other guys. You've suffered multiple disappointments, multiple heartbreaks, perhaps some infidelities and physical abuse if you were unlucky. You've been used up by life, by romance, by relationships. You're likely tired, unenthusiastic, you have your guard up. No matter how great a match he is for you, how good are you for him? Better for him to find a lower mileage woman.


So what is the point you are actually trying to make? If a woman waits and never dates and then gets married to her first boyfriend she'll see her husband as the perfect man for her, but if she dated a bunch of guys she wouldn't think the same man wasn't all that great after dating the others. You make A LOT of assumptions and call them near certainties. Maybe the woman dated a bunch of guys because she was the picky one and she finally found the right guy. There are plenty of picky women out there in my experience women are pickier than men. 

And I can't remember, why does this not go both ways and a guy who dates and sleeps with a few dozen women isn't just settling for his eventual wife after all that?

Another thing you don't take into account in your statistical analysis is the fact that with experience in the dating world people's list of must haves and deal breakers for partners tend to change quite a bit. Not a lowering of standards but maybe a woman in her early twenties fresh out of college might put a higher value on the financial status of a partner than she would at 30 if she is herself financially secure on her own. Or intelligence takes on more importance. Lots of things change. 

I just think you have a really twisted view of women have you been cheated on a bunch or something?


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> So what is the point you are actually trying to make? If a woman waits and never dates and then gets married to her first boyfriend she'll see her husband as the perfect man for her, but if she dated a bunch of guys she wouldn't think the same man wasn't all that great after dating the others. You make A LOT of assumptions and call them near certainties. Maybe the woman dated a bunch of guys because she was the picky one and she finally found the right guy. There are plenty of picky women out there in my experience women are pickier than men.
> 
> And I can't remember, why does this not go both ways and a guy who dates and sleeps with a few dozen women isn't just settling for his eventual wife after all that?
> 
> ...


Women bond with men through a DIFFERENT neurological process than men bond with women. We even see this playing out in many instance of male infidelity, the husband loves his wife, he just wanted some stranger. Women generally displace the husband and transfer their bonding to the affair partner.

But in the end what really matters is how men and women make their own preferences known. If men desire low count women, no amount of women's complaining about that is going to change male preferences, men will simply pass on the high count women. Conversely, once women adopt the same preference, then male incels will find themselves in the land of milk and honey and the playas will sit all by their lonesome.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> When's the last time you heard any teen talk about "going steady?" Yeah, teen sex has always been a thing, ALWAYS. What hasn't always been a thing is hook-ups. Teen sex in the past was more associated with ongoing relationships, marriage-in-training.


i really thinks most of these “scary” things are exaggerated by the internetsee a lot of teens around me, and they are nice, polite, hard working students. They are not soulless monsters. The few pregnancies I saw recently were teens who were in commited relationships, not hook ups.

it’s like all other steteotypes: millenials are lazy, baby boomers are crazy, etc.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Because a woman's ability to bond to her man is diminished by the number of men she's been with. Ceterus parisbus, the first loves are the ideal, just make sure you pick a good one.
> 
> The clumsy teenager concern only applies to the beginning. Practice makes perfect. The way we have set up age of consent laws pretty much insures that women are always going to have their first with a clumsy teenager.


Ok, I am Not fan if the world “mansplaining” but if there was ever situation to use it, it is now. 
Are you really explaining to me what I feel, how I feel about men in my life?
This really is not a thing. We do not spend time dreaming about a lover from 20-30 years ago, and dismissing our current man. Frankly, it is the opposite often. All my divorced friends are way happier with their sex lives than they ever been. 
smh


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> Ok, I am Not fan if the world “mansplaining” but if there was ever situation to use it, it is now.
> Are you really explaining to me what I feel, how I feel about men in my life?
> This really is not a thing. We do not spend time dreaming about a lover from 20-30 years ago, and dismissing our current man. Frankly, it is the opposite often. All my divorced friends are way happier with their sex lives than they ever been.
> smh


Compare the incidence of women and men who believe that they have settled for their spouse and you find it to be a very common phenomenon for women and much less so for men. For a woman to believe that she settled, she must have in mind some "better" man that she parted ways with.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Women bond with men through a DIFFERENT neurological process than men bond with women. We even see this playing out in many instance of male infidelity, the husband loves his wife, he just wanted some stranger. Women generally displace the husband and transfer their bonding to the affair partner.
> 
> But in the end what really matters is how men and women make their own preferences known. If men desire low count women, no amount of women's complaining about that is going to change male preferences, men will simply pass on the high count women. Conversely, once women adopt the same preference, then male incels will find themselves in the land of milk and honey and the playas will sit all by their lonesome.


Yes but how people are affected in their relationship by previous sexual experiences is a far cry from infidelity. I wouldn't keep you hopes up for the INCEL guys, there is a reason they can't get a woman. From the examples of those guys I have seen it would require an exceptionally desperate woman to go there.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Never make the mistake of thinking the incels who think they're such "nice guys" actually are.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Yes but how people are affected in their relationship by previous sexual experiences is a far cry from infidelity. I wouldn't keep you hopes up for the INCEL guys, there is a reason they can't get a woman. From the examples of those guys I have seen it would require an exceptionally desperate woman to go there.


But if male virginity is something that will, one day (after the revolution) become prized by women, then those guys are going to be living the life of Riley.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Compare the incidence of women and men who believe that they have settled for their spouse and you find it to be a very common phenomenon for women and much less so for men. For a woman to believe that she settled, she must have in mind some "better" man that she parted ways with.


I don’t know the statistics if it exists at all. You do not have to have “better” man in mind to know you settled. Or made a mistake. Or things simply got broken. 
but what you saying can be really explained after you spent few years on this forum.: men often are clueless (by their own admission here) here that their wife was unhappy. Wife would be asking, begging, pleading for change, improvement and is dismissed as nagging, because guy is perfectly happy in that marriage. So then you have WAW syndrom. 
to summarize, women often see problems before their husbands do. That’s all there is too it.No need for the mysterious better man from the past - quite often it will turn out to be rather man from the future...


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> I don’t know the statistics if it exists at all. You do not have to have “better” man in mind to know you settled. Or made a mistake. Or things simply got broken.
> but what you saying can be really explained after you spent few years on this forum.: men often are clueless (by their own admission here) here that their wife was unhappy. Wife would be asking, begging, pleading for change, improvement and is dismissed as nagging, because guy is perfectly happy in that marriage. So then you have WAW syndrom.
> to summarize, women often see problems before their husbands do. That’s all there is too it.No need for the mysterious better man from the past - quite often it will turn out to be rather man from the future...


I agree with most of what you wrote about the evolution of marriages and WAW. What I'm talking about in terms of settling is knowing "going in" that they're settling. Men too can become disillusioned with a marriage, and think that they "settled" by not marrying some imaginary perfect woman. 

In so much of the commentary here there is a presumption of men and women behaving identically, etc. but no one seems to be questioning why the entire process of WAW doesn't have an identical counterpart for husbands. This suggests to me that most people, deep down, do know that men and women operate on different standards. While some men do plead for their wives to change and do start to disengage and do walkaway, this is not so common that an actual term is devised to describe these men.

The WAW is simply an extension of the common maxim "Men are afraid of commitment, women find it difficult to stay committed."


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> What is correct and incorrect is not determined by popular vote. Oh brother, I have my work cut out for me.


Who or what determines what's important or not???? Cows? Aliens? Nope. 
People determine what's important or not. 

And what do you do with what's correct or incorrect if people don't understand or just don't care? Public opinion and reactions are obviously important otherwise you wouldn't care about "cultural propaganda." I'd say you care a little too much about it! 

You are all over the place! You might be a computing machine but you are not an empathetic person. 

We live in this "damaged" society, but hey, I have had a blast living in it! And many here seemed to have the same experience. 

I can wipe my *ss with your survey results and statistics, while you fix your bowtie crying about the good old days. 

What are you trying to accomplish with all the drama and "armageddon now" kind of posts?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> I agree with most of what you wrote about the evolution of marriages and WAW. What I'm talking about in terms of settling is knowing "going in" that they're settling. Men too can become disillusioned with a marriage, and think that they "settled" by not marrying some imaginary perfect woman.
> 
> In so much of the commentary here there is a presumption of men and women behaving identically, etc. but no one seems to be questioning why the entire process of WAW doesn't have an identical counterpart for husbands. This suggests to me that most people, deep down, do know that men and women operate on different standards. While some men do plead for their wives to change and do start to disengage and do walkaway, this is not so common that an actual term is devised to describe these men.
> 
> The WAW is simply an extension of the common maxim "Men are afraid of commitment, women find it difficult to stay committed."


I have never heard that saying. Don’t think I agree with it. look how many men are leaving their families to go after another woman. I am not sure why you are making it into women’s phenomen. I did not ask for divorce because I can not stay committed, or because I am still thinking abouut some guy from 30 years ago. I asked for divorce because I got fed up with being yelled at, calked names, disrespected. I asked for divorce after years of begging for change. And I gave us another chance, with couple counseling, weekly dates etc. tried for another seven years until now. So no, it is not something that women do lightly. 
women are different in some respects, not so different in others.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> I have never heard that saying. Don’t think I agree with it. look how many men are leaving their families to go after another woman. I am not sure why you are making it into women’s phenomen. I did not ask for divorce because I can not stay committed, or because I am still thinking abouut some guy from 30 years ago. I asked for divorce because I got fed up with being yelled at, calked names, disrespected. I asked for divorce after years of begging for change. And I gave us another chance, with couple counseling, weekly dates etc. tried for another seven years until now. So no, it is not something that women do lightly.
> women are different in some respects, not so different in others.


If you'd like I'll go and find my chart on how relationships bust up. Women pull the plug way more than men and of course I'm sure everyone on this forum knows the divorce filing data. Husbands will stay in a boring and unfulfilling marriage more readily than wives. We can argue about whether that is due to their conviction to honor their vows or just complacency but the end result is that they're still more committed.

I'm not trying to make this about you nor, really, about women, I'm trying to stress that men and women behave differently, have different expectations, have different standards.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> What are you trying to accomplish with all the drama and "armageddon now" kind of posts?


My newfound mission in life is to raise your blood pressure. Cheers.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> *


Sign me up for some "sólo para mujeres" (only for women) show!!!

It's a Mexican "Full Monty" kind of show that has toured, very successfully, through out the Catholic and "machista" Latin América for about a decade!! 





__





Sólo para Mujeres - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> It tends not to be same with men. I guess the ability to compartmentalize. Men become more bonded to the one they are having lots of sex with.


That's a generalization.

I can't speak for men in general and I might have had different experiences than many/most? But I am a man who does not give a wiz about how many men my partner has had. I don't even care about a particularly colorful past like prostitution or porn work as long as pragmatic issues are addressed about leaving the past in the past and making sure the future is secure.

I might be fringe even but I do have an xy combo so you can't just say men feel that way.

Maybe most men do? I don't honestly know.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Lance Mannion said:


> Not really. This is a statistical exercise. The odds of you working your way through 30 guys and on meeting the 31st guy you find that he's the best one of the lot are very low. The best of the lot is more likely to be one of the other 30 guys but HE DIDN'T WANT YOU. This now creates the double-whammy, he was the best for you and you're still pining for him because he's "the one that got away."
> 
> Your scenario? Could happen, but it's like winning a raffle, odds of 1 in X.
> 
> All that said, by the time you get to that 31st dream guy, you've been changed, and ****ed, by 30 other guys. You've suffered multiple disappointments, multiple heartbreaks, perhaps some infidelities and physical abuse if you were unlucky. You've been used up by life, by romance, by relationships. You're likely tired, unenthusiastic, you have your guard up. No matter how great a match he is for you, how good are you for him? Better for him to find a lower mileage woman.


Or.....

She ****ed 30 guys and fell in love with the 31st.

Maybe one of the earlier partners was a super hot stud and absolutely rocked her world sexually but was just an asshat or otherwise came up short in other, very important areas.

Mrs. Conan was somewhere in the sixties for partner count for me. The first time we had sex wasn't very good for either of us and I wouldn't rank it in the top ten.

I did however love her and we worked at it(30 times the first week) tirelessly and got pretty damn good at it together.

Mrs. Conan had very important traits for me and sex had to be worked at.

Sex really isn't the determining factor for a successful relationship at all.

As long as both partners want each other and it is at least satisfying, it's going to be a good match.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> My newfound mission in life is to raise your blood pressure. Cheers.


Oh honey, you are clueless about how to raise my blood pressure. 

You can start with a striptease.

P.S. You can leave your bowtie on.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> That's a generalization.
> 
> I can't speak for men in general and I might have had different experiences than many/most? But I am a man who does not give a wiz about how many men my partner has had. I don't even care about a particularly colorful past like prostitution or porn work as long as pragmatic issues are addressed about leaving the past in the past and making sure the future is secure.
> 
> ...


And there are women who are your counterparts. They continually hook-up with men who beat the crap out of them and treat them like garbage. Why don't these women care about the man's past behavior with other women? They're drawn to something about that type of man, like moths to the light.

I wonder if you're belief is really in support of a self-image you have, one where you see yourself as a strong, self-assured, and confident man who is not threatened by his woman's past. Have you ever actually tested your belief by marrying an ex-prostitute?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

pastasauce79 said:


> Oh honey, you are clueless about how to raise my blood pressure.
> 
> You can start with a striptease.
> 
> P.S. You can leave your bowtie on.


LoL! I'm hesitant to explore where this came from but oh so curious!😋


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> And there are women who are your counterparts. They continually hook-up with men who beat the crap out of them and treat them like garbage. Why don't these women care about the man's past behavior with other women?


I would point out to these women that they ought to be concerned he might repeat his past violence to partners with them. Whereas I don't think Conan needs to be concerned she will repeat her past behavior with him.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Lance Mannion said:


> And there are women who are your counterparts. They continually hook-up with men who beat the crap out of them and treat them like garbage. Why don't these women care about the man's past behavior with other women? They're drawn to something about that type of man, like moths to the light.
> 
> I wonder if you're belief is really in support of a self-image you have, one where you see yourself as a strong, self-assured, and confident man who is not threatened by his woman's past. Have you ever actually tested your belief by marrying an ex-prostitute?


You shouldn't include abuse in partner count.

As far as my self image? I don't know. I didn't originally plan on living to be 30 but Mrs. Conan changed my mind.

I don't really consider a lot of things others seem to but I'm not alone. It wouldn't really matter to me if I was.

I did date an ex porn star. Her past was far more a detrimental obstruction for her than me and we parted ways.

Mrs. Conan never worked as a prostitute as far as I know but she had many partners, was married twice and was cheated on and cheated as well in both marriages. She was also the other woman twice with men in authority over her. Once with a church official who took her virginity and then with her boss when she was a live in nanny.

The only reason I do care about my partner's past is how it has hurt them or is affecting them.

Mrs. Conan was very hurt and ashamed of her past so I cared a great deal about it in that light.

I didn't care at all as far as my interests were concerned.

I have almost always been too arrogant and confident but I'm upfront about it and not self deluded.

Mrs. Conan knew I was arrogant from the start but she will also claim I'm good, if not particularly nice.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Divinely Favored said:


> The highest school has the farm kids, rolling in the hay ya know!
> 
> Pregnancy may be down due to the use of BC i think the the instances of teen sex are still prevalent.


That too is declining according to surveys. "These percentages have gradually declined since 1988"
article on teen sex


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

You're a good person, Conan.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I wouldn't hold my breath.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> LoL! I'm hesitant to explore where this came from but oh so curious!😋


Previously I said, "I can wipe my *ss with your survey results and statistics, while you fix your bowtie crying about the good old days."

I picture him like an old, boring, statistics college professor. The one that wears a brown suit, wire eyeglasses, and a bowtie. Lol!


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. Conan never worked as a prostitute as far as I know but she had many partners, was married twice and was cheated on and cheated as well in both marriages. She was also the other woman twice with men in authority over her. Once with a church official who took her virginity and then with her boss when she was a live in nanny.


The reason I don't subscribe to the view "Once a cheater, always a cheater" is because life is not quite so deterministic. There will be cheaters who only cheat once, regret it and insure that they never do that again.

That said though, the person who overlooks that past behavior is the one taking a risk with their own "wasted years" and heartache. Sometimes the gamble pays off, as in your case, but frequently the past really is the best predictor of the future.

I support women who judge men's past behavior with respect to violence or alcoholic rages or child sex abuse and shut down further dating with those guys. By the same token, I support men judging women for their past behavior. It's up to the man to decide for himself what behavior he wants to judge and what value he wants to assign to the behavior.

Mrs. Conan, no offense, has high risk red flags. Again, none of those red flags is deterministic. Good for you that everything worked out. But it was a risk you took, you recognize that, I hope.



> The only reason I do care about my partner's past is how it has hurt them or is affecting them.


Why though are you not thinking of your own self-interest? Can you really say that a person's past behavior has no predictive value in regards to their future behavior? Or was this simply a case of your emotions for your lady overriding rational concerns?



> I have almost always been too arrogant and confident but I'm upfront about it and not self deluded.
> 
> Mrs. Conan knew I was arrogant from the start but she will also claim I'm good, if not particularly nice.


There's a distinction I'm focusing on with respect to self-confidence and it focuses on the need to maintain an ego, a self-image, and so that need becomes paramount and overrides other concerns.

One can be self-confident and arrogant or one can DECIDE to be self-confident and arrogant. Remember the member "180" who wrote about his post-divorce life in the post entitled "Charade" about how he and his ex-wife could pretend to be madly in love. They enjoyed the feelings they experienced during that charade, but deep down those were not authentic feelings. 

Lots of guys take positions in order to support a self-image they have of themselves. When guys do this the positions that they take are not really the best for themselves, those decisions serve to validate the self-image.

Caveat: Not speaking at all about you, I don't know you, just speaking in generalities. No offense.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> What hasn't always been a thing is hook-ups. Teen sex in the past was more associated with ongoing relationships, marriage-in-training.


Teenage hook-ups have been around for a long time now.

I remember going to lots of parties as a 16 year old in 1987, where plenty of my friends hooked up or otherwise played with other people and sometimes a few different people separately through the night or collectively in group sex.

It was the norm where I lived, and that also included plenty of the girls who went to the Catholic Girls High School. Plus I finger banged and shared oral sex with plenty of girls as well in 1987.

Then when I was 17 I "lost my virginity", and all of that and more remained the norm. With plenty of us sharing sex partners, swapping sex partners, having sex in the same room with friends and on and on etc. When I was 17 I was having sex 3-5x a day usually every day of the week and plenty of my friends both male and female were having lots of sex as well.

We also had older friends buying alcohol for us. Then there were the parents that hosted parties for us where they let us have alcohol and left us alone to do as we pleased. We also got into drinking venues as well, because we weren't carded properly.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> You're a good person, Conan.
> [/QUO Sincere thanks!
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> I'm not trying to make this about you nor, really, about women, I'm trying to stress that men and women behave differently, have different expectations, have different standards.


I would suggest that the behaviors, expectations and standards for either gender are nowhere near as uniform as you seem to believe.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Personal said:


> Teenage hook-ups have been around for a long time now.
> 
> I remember going to lots of parties as a 16 year old in 1987, where plenty of my friends hooked up or otherwise played with other people and sometimes a few different people separately through the night or collectively in group sex.
> 
> ...


I think we're operating on two different definitions of hook-up culture. Random,.one-off, sex acts by teens are a different animal than making these random sex acts a central part of your teen sex life, where partners are a one-offs or drawn from a rotating cast of partners.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

SpinyNorman said:


> I would suggest that the behaviors, expectations and standards for either gender are nowhere near as uniform as you seem to believe.


How many men exhibit a "maternal instinct."


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> How many men exhibit a "maternal instinct."


Depends how you define it, but inasmuch as it hasn't been part of the conversation thus far, it doesn't figure into what you seem to believe.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Lance Mannion said:


> The reason I don't subscribe to the view "Once a cheater, always a cheater" is because life is not quite so deterministic. There will be cheaters who only cheat once, regret it and insure that they never do that again.
> 
> That said though, the person who overlooks that past behavior is the one taking a risk with their own "wasted years" and heartache. Sometimes the gamble pays off, as in your case, but frequently the past really is the best predictor of the future.
> 
> ...


I was a walking red flag as well. We didn't look good on paper.

I might have been as close to a "Son of Anarchy" as anyone you could meet in real life.

I wasn't the guy people picked fights with. I was the guy people were scared of. The police were always pulling me over hoping to find a way to catch "the biggest drug dealer" in the western state.

I walked alone into crouds numbering over one hundred and dispersed them by myself.

When I came back to my hometown with a Bible in hand as well as a wife and children, there was more than one near heart attack and several people had no problem verbalizing their disbelief that I was alive, much less a Christian.

I just wasn't the kind of guy that gets cheated on to put it simply.

I required certain things and I'm always up front about them.

Mrs. Conan and I had a talk after our first date and I told her my requirements and listened to hers.

We agreed and have never broken them.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Random,.one-off, sex acts by teens are a different animal than making these random sex acts a central part of your teen sex life, where partners are a one-offs or drawn from a rotating cast of partners.


Very few of us had steady ongoing boyfriends or girlfriends. Most of the sex was with a varied and occasionally rotating cast of partners.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> I think we're operating on two different definitions of hook-up culture. Random,.one-off, sex acts by teens are a different animal than* making these random sex acts a central part of your teen sex life, where partners are a one-offs or drawn from a rotating cast of partners.*


I'm not sure if by this you are comparing now vs in the past...As a father that has a very close bond with my almost 18 year old daughter, practically none of what you are saying is happening....Maybe it is in some inner city urban areas or in the sticks, but not here...and I grew up not 10 miles from where we live now and socioeconomically things have gotten a bit better ...but not by much..

And that same stuff was happening back when I was her age.....and younger....I can tell you that I had WAY more sex than she has ever had(I wouldn't at all be surprised if she has never had intercourse, although I can't say I truly know), but for absolute sure she wasn't as active as the girls that were hanging around every party or gathering back then...

I think the trend toward less sexual activity and pregnancy has more to do with the empowerment and advancement of younger girls in the workplace and such, so now it's not just that girls think they have to put out to hook a guy's interest so he can take care of her...sex may have been the only tool in her toolbox...That's not the case now...Women/girls don't need to necessarily do that anymore, especially now where they have more lofty career goals and aspirations.....All good news in my boat...😉


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> I'm not sure if by this you are comparing now vs in the past...As a father that has a very close bond with my almost 18 year old daughter, practically none of what you are saying is happening....Maybe it is in some inner city urban areas or in the sticks, but not here...and I grew up not 10 miles from where we live now and socioeconomically things have gotten a bit better ...but not by much..
> 
> And that same stuff was happening back when I was her age.....and younger....I can tell you that I had WAY more sex than she has ever had(I wouldn't at all be surprised if she has never had intercourse, although I can't say I truly know), but for absolute sure she wasn't as active as the girls that were hanging around every party or gathering back then...
> 
> I think the trend toward less sexual activity and pregnancy has more to do with the empowerment and advancement of younger girls in the workplace and such, so now it's not just that girls think they have to put out to hook a guy's interest so he can take care of her...sex may have been the only tool in her toolbox...That's not the case now...Women/girls don't need to necessarily do that anymore, especially now where they have more lofty career goals and aspirations.....All good news in my boat...😉


And yet we're seeing national trends in which teen girls and younger women in their 20s are, on average, accumulating higher partner counts than their same-age male counterparts and more boys and men under the age of 30 reporting zero sexual activity for the last 12 months compared to same-age women (28% of men under age of 30 report zero sex). Every time a woman has heterosexual sex, there has to be a man there, so some men are making out like bandits and other guys are left high and dry.

In the last 10 years there has been a dramatic equalization in partner count, verified by lie detector tests of respondents, and young college women, who only 10 years ago had lower counts, now have equal or higher counts than their same-age male college peers.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> And yet we're seeing national trends in which teen girls and younger women in their 20s are, on average, accumulating higher partner counts than their same-age male counterparts and more boys and men under the age of 30 reporting zero sexual activity for the last 12 months compared to same-age women (28% of men under age of 30 report zero sex). Every time a woman has heterosexual sex, there has to be a man there, so some men are making out like bandits and other guys are left high and dry.
> 
> In the last 10 years there has been a dramatic equalization in partner count, verified by lie detector tests of respondents, and young college women, who only 10 years ago had lower counts, now have equal or higher counts than their same-age male college peers.


Have any citations for all of these claims?? Do you have any kids currently at this age willing to tell you what's actually going on??

Not trying to be argumentative, but I really don't hear any of this out there...Additionally, there are MUCH tighter controls on kids now...then there ever was then....Back in the 80s if you were at a party or out wherever. your parents really had no idea what you were doing, nor could they even find you if they tried...Now parents have a constant line on their kids through the mobile, many install tracking devices and apps. etc..

I dunno...I just don't think its anything like you are making it out to be...No disrespect,


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> Have any citations for all of these claims?? Do you have any kids currently at this age willing to tell you what's actually going on??
> 
> Not trying to be argumentative, but I really don't hear any of this out there...Additionally, there are MUCH tighter controls on kids now...then there ever was then....Back in the 80s if you were at a party or out wherever. your parents really had no idea what you were doing, nor could they even find you if they tried...Now parents have a constant line on their kids through the mobile, many install tracking devices and apps. etc..
> 
> I dunno...I just don't think its anything like you are making it out to be...No disrespect,


I think it was my first post in this thread in which I included many charts to support those claims.

What you hear is not going to be a good indicator of national trends.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

hamadryad said:


> I think the trend toward less sexual activity and pregnancy has more to do with the empowerment and advancement of younger girls in the workplace and such


Plus greater access to contraceptives, and greater access to explicit and detailed sex education and knowledge.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Bunch of judgmental junk --- pure fictional thoughts.
> 
> I'm assuming you think the same of men, right? Women better find a lower mileage man or else he's gonna be used up, tired, and unenthusiastic?!!!!


Or just tired of women in general and untrusting due to the games they play.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Personal said:


> Teenage hook-ups have been around for a long time now.
> 
> I remember going to lots of parties as a 16 year old in 1987, where plenty of my friends hooked up or otherwise played with other people and sometimes a few different people separately through the night or collectively in group sex.
> 
> ...


You remind me of my best friend. He left alot of girls in his wake, wondering why he was a pump and dump. Had 1 or 2 try to come to me after and i was girl i would not touch you with my dog's dik after you were with him. He was after 1 thing only. We were even late for his wedding but it did not stop his playing with other girls on the weekend. After tgey had a baby he would take baby to store because she was a chick magnet, man alone with baby.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> Or just tired of women in general and untrusting due to the games they play.


Say what?

You quoted me-- I was replying to someone who said women with 30 sex partners were tired and unenthusiastic about sex while men with 30 sex partners weren't. Commenting on that poster's silly and sexist assertion that men are better for having more partners and woman aren't.

So....???


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Say what?
> 
> You quoted me-- I was replying to someone who said women with 30 sex partners were tired and unenthusiastic about sex while men with 30 sex partners weren't. Commenting on that poster's silly and sexist assertion that men are better for having more partners and woman aren't.
> 
> So....???


Just saying that guys like me that were looking for LTR got burned from women who were just in it for the fun. The more girls the more i got discourage with women overall. One i was with even tried to loan me to her BFF for a night. I was 23 and had a 35yr old tall brunette come in our bedroom in a black lace teddy with stockings wanting to know if i wanted to stay with her tonight. With GF approval. Being a loyal partner it was a no. Later caught GF with another guy. Should have known a 34yr old redhead nympho divorcee was not interrested long term in a 23yr old new to the market guy. I was just a boytoy to her. She burnt me on redheads. Now i tell my boys to run from gingers.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Divinely Favored said:


> Now i tell my boys to run from gingers.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

In Absentia said:


>


I guess that is the new term for reds according to my 18yr old at the time. I said if they have brown eyes run faster!


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> I think it was my first post in this thread in which I included many charts to support those claims.
> 
> What you hear is not going to be a good indicator of national trends.


Do you have a child(ren) that are in this age group? I guess not...

And if you just google "younger people having less sex" there are literally countless articles outlining this phenomenon...

I dunno, man...The tone of your posts suggests that you are somewhat angry or bitter that women are sexually liberated or perhaps less inhibited, and that somehow makes them "damaged goods",,,, If that's the case, then you should be happy that more women are aspiring to be more than secretaries or hair stylists that need to use sex to allow them to achieve some minimum of existence in this world...

My daughter is consumed with her studies and can't bear it if she doesn't ace everything...Most of the top tier students are in fact girls who probably share the same mindset...Back when I was in HS it wasn't nearly the case...When sex and a pair of tits and vagina is all you have to offer, then it stands to reason that you will be using that at every opportunity,,,,not the case anymore...


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Personal said:


> Plus greater access to contraceptives, and greater access to explicit and detailed sex education and knowledge.


Practically all the sexually active girls back in my day were using the common contraceptives that are available today...I don't know if that is so much the case...I will say that maybe the availability/accessibility of porn may take away some of the mystery of it, but I don't think it had much to do with contraceptives....They were readily available to anyone that wanted or needed it...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> I guess that is the new term for reds according to my 18yr old at the time. I said if they have brown eyes run faster!


 So one woman who had red hair and brown eyes caused you to cast every single woman with red hair and brown eyes in the same category? I think you're doing your sons a disservice.


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## Imperfections (Nov 26, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> Exactly on target.
> 
> In a nutshell, men marry the women they want, women marry the men they can get.
> 
> ...


I am trying to keep up and get a sense where you are coming from but it’s not easy, given the amount of posts in the last few days alone…(perhaps it is Jordan Peterson rehearsing his much awaited comeback? )

The (somewhat disturbing) thing is what you write, is actually not all wrong but how you do it will provoke a lot of people. Essentially (and like Peterson) you seem concerned about the various changes and ’new norms’ our society is experiencing (forgive me for paraphrasing but I was not able to read everything). What doesn’t come as clear is whether you are actually advocating scrapping and going ‘back to basics’ or whether instead, we should tweak and adjust.

You see, no matter what the flaws are of our current societal (Western) norms, they are still A LOT better than during the times when women had no say whatsoever about anything; whether it was their sexuality or anything else (even if men found it easier to get laid…). Everyone is MUCH BETTER OFF not living in those times anymore. It doesn’t mean there aren’t some side effects or new issues arising from some of the changes. Whenever one component of a system changes, other components just need time to adjust. It doesn’t mean that the new adjustment was completely wrong. (I always think it is MUCH safer to adjust, rather than change something entirely. People don’t have the ability to foresee all the possible consequences of a new adjustment even it seems ‘so right’ at the time. And it takes time to arrive at fundamental moral values that will then stand the test of time).

Btw this goes with everything: we don’t want to go back when freedom of speech was forbidden either, it doesn’t mean there aren’t side effects (such as conspiracy theories infecting populations and their beliefs at the moment). Nor does it mean we should scrap freedom of speech. Or respecting other people’s cultures. 

I used to make fun of some aspects of feminism (still do, sometimes). But I also understand why the movement was necessary to begin with. Or racism. It’s basically about balance. And I just want to caution that while your stuff is informative and makes for an interesting read, it is also very one-sided and unfortunately it’s too easy to be misunderstood (and banned as a result).


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> You remind me of my best friend. He left alot of girls in his wake, wondering why he was a pump and dump. Had 1 or 2 try to come to me after and i was girl i would not touch you with my dog's dik after you were with him. He was after 1 thing only. We were even late for his wedding but it did not stop his playing with other girls on the weekend. After tgey had a baby he would take baby to store because she was a chick magnet, man alone with baby.


I don't think I'm like your friend, Since I was describing my friends and the other people we associated with. Now sure I played with different people in the way I describe up into being 17.

Yet part way through being 17 I went all the way with a 16 year old who I married when I was 19 because I got her pregnant (and we did sometimes have sex with friends in the same room etc).. I was with her up through our legal separation pending divorce when I was 20 following her infidelity (I have no problem with non-monogamy, I just won't tolerate cheating). Of which her sadly developing a mental illness contributed to that, as well as both of us not really wanting to be married as well. My ex wife has managed to have a slightly longer lasting relationship and marriage than the 24 years I have had with my wife, although we don't get on I am glad for her.

Part way through our separation, I then started back where I left off as such, and had various one night stands and hook-ups up till my wife asked me out on a date when I was near to turning 25. That said I also had one longish and serious relationship when I was 22-23 and I had a few shorter term relationships as well. I was also the other man on a few brief occasions as well. Although I also turned down more offers of sex/hook-ups and asking out by different women than I said yes to.

I never set out to have one type of relationship over another, I was open to hook ups becoming long term relationships, and potential long term relationships just being friends to play with. I have also never cheated on any of my sexual partners, even in the face of quite a number of very attractive no strings attached offers.

I am also good at sexual relationships, whether they are very brief or ongoing ones. I care about the people I play with, whether it is once, a few times or multiple decades. I didn't leave people wondering, I never misrepresented myself or my intentions, and informed consent has always mattered to me, I treat my sexual partners how I hope to be treated.

I had lots of fun, yet so did the people I shared that fun with, I am still friends with a number of people I played with up to 17 and am also still friends with some people I played with from 21 and up including one woman who I was the other man with. My wife also knows this and has met these people as well and stayed with one of them as well.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I was a walking red flag as well. We didn't look good on paper.
> 
> I might have been as close to a "Son of Anarchy" as anyone you could meet in real life.
> 
> ...


@ConanHub if one day you write an autobiography, I want a signed copy!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> Now i tell my boys to run from gingers.


That's terrible advice. What individuals do is what individuals do.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Personal said:


> That's terrible advice. What individuals do is what individuals do.


I agree. Lol, what's funny is that my wife is a red head with brown eyes, and she is pretty awesome in my book.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> Had 1 or 2 try to come to me after and i was girl i would not touch you with my dog's dik after you were with him.


One thing for sure I certainly don't share your perspective on this.

My third longest ongoing sexual relationship was with a terrific woman, who had been with one of my friends for a brief time before me. I had/have no problem with that at all.

Likewise of all of the women I have been with, I have been fine that most of them weren't virgins before being with me (I even turned down two explicit offers of virginity from different women).

I have had no problem that I have been with women who have been with other men, a few weeks or a week, a few days or a day, an hour or a few hours etc before being with me. That said I hope they had fun and lots of it before me, and likewise I hope they have had lots of fun after me as well.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> @ConanHub if one day you write an autobiography, I want a signed copy!


LoL!

I would have to get creative while writing it.

Maybe after my mom passes if I still have the energy.

Neither of us are who we use to be, thank God, but I won't ever embarrass her or besmirch the loving woman she is now.

Some of it would be pretty entertaining I have to admit.😉


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> LoL!
> 
> I would have to get creative while writing it.
> 
> ...


Write it incognito!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> Write it incognito!


That's an idea.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Divinely Favored said:


> Now i tell my boys to run from gingers.


First time I've heard of gingervitus referred to as an STD.

I hope your boys have an alternate source for good relationship advice.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Dating just wasn't as complicated back in the '80s. I feel kind of bad for young people now. They talk through their phones instead of to each other and it's just... weird. And I can understand young men, fresh out of college, not wanting to marry or father kids, when we live in a society where the legal system is inherently stacked against them.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

pastasauce79 said:


> Previously I said, "I can wipe my *ss with your survey results and statistics, while you fix your bowtie crying about the good old days."
> 
> I picture him like an old, boring, statistics college professor. The one that wears a brown suit, wire eyeglasses, and a bowtie. Lol!


Actually, I picture him to be fairly young and inexperienced with people and relationships (not in a bad way!).


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Dating just wasn't as complicated back in the '80s. I feel kind of bad for young people now. They talk through their phones instead of to each other and it's just... weird. And I can understand young men, fresh out of college, not wanting to marry or father kids, when we live in a society where the legal system is inherently stacked against them.


the marriage is down for both gender. there is the same trend for young women. probably several reasons. they all have seen a lot of divorces around. the other thing many of them are stuck with big college bills and starting family is too expensive. 
My teenage daugther keeps saying she is not getting married ever (that drama age, lol). Based on what she saw going on in our marriage, it is not strange that her opinion of marriage is low.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> Actually, I picture him to be fairly young and inexperienced with people and relationships (not in a bad way!).


I don't think so. He is more complicated that that his posts about his wife, family are smart and emphatic. But he has that gloom idea about the world outside his house that skews the view of the society. I am still trying to figure out how those two things can exist in one person


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> And yet we're seeing national trends in which teen girls and younger women in their 20s are, on average, accumulating higher partner counts than their same-age male counterparts and more boys and men under the age of 30 reporting zero sexual activity for the last 12 months compared to same-age women (28% of men under age of 30 report zero sex). Every time a woman has heterosexual sex, there has to be a man there, so some men are making out like bandits and other guys are left high and dry.
> 
> In the last 10 years there has been a dramatic equalization in partner count, verified by lie detector tests of respondents, and young college women, who only 10 years ago had lower counts, now have equal or higher counts than their same-age male college peers.


But what exactly is wrong with this?

Are those national results from ivy league schools? Private schools? Public schools? 

I want to know how many schools participated and which schools participated.

This country has different cultures in different areas. It wouldn't surprise me if girls are having more sex living at the coast. At the same time, girls who lived in a very conservative and protective family sometimes go wild and college is the place to go crazy. Can you really trust their answers, though? What if they were boasting their answers trying to appear cool?

At this moment, I don't really see it happening to my nieces in college or to my friend's college aged girls. We know the girls are having sex, yes we know that. They have boyfriends. I remember my friend finding a condom in her daughter's drawer. The girl was mortified! Lol!

As a mom of a daughter, I'm not closing my eyes to the reality of my daughter's future sex life. My mom was very "explicit" when it came to sex ed (cucumber and a condom, OMG!) and I appreciated her teachings. On the other hand, my husband and his sister never had the straight talk and they faced some tough realities.

I don't see it as a problem with girls. Guys are obsessed with video games now a days. If they are not playing those stupid games, they are watching tutorials on how to play the game and also recording themselves playing the game. My son watches them all the time and those men are not teenagers. They have millions of followers. 

Are guys not having more sex because they feel intimidated by girls or is it because it's too much work and it's easier to follow the girl on instagram or tiktok or Facebook and fantasize about her? And if this is the case then I'd think this is why women are more aggressive. They are fighting to get the guy's attention!! 

Are you saying now you follow the trends? Because that certainly sounds "propagandish" to me.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Actually, I picture him to be fairly young and inexperienced with people and relationships (not in a bad way!).


He might have a chart to show he's not inexperienced with people and relationships.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Re the thread topic, I thought it was a strange title, but a good thread, certainly not criticizing. 

But my initial thothought was durn, when young I never even considered not having sex as much as possible because the opportunities were right there.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

pastasauce79 said:


> He might have a chart to show he's not inexperienced with people and relationships.


But remember, it's important that one marry a _woman_ who is inexperienced, OR ELSE she'll be used up, tired, unenthusiastic, and liable to cheat.

What a bunch of silly crap.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> the marriage is down for both gender. there is the same trend for young women. probably several reasons. they all have seen a lot of divorces around. the other thing many of them are stuck with big college bills and starting family is too expensive.
> My teenage daugther keeps saying she is not getting married ever (that drama age, lol). Based on what she saw going on in our marriage, it is not strange that her opinion of marriage is low.


The ones in college in my family have all said that 30 is the earliest they would consider getting married, if they marry at all. They can’t imagine why my generation tied themselves down so early in life. I told them it was a much different time then but I don’t disagree with them.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Openminded said:


> The ones in college in my family have all said that 30 is the earliest they would consider getting married, if they marry at all. They can’t imagine why my generation tied themselves down so early in life. I told them it was a much different time then but I don’t disagree with them.


i guess it depends on how we want to live our lives... i got married at 21, and we had our daughter at 22. that means that right about the time i am retiring from the military, my daughter will be old enough to go to college or work on her own, etc. 

so, i will be able to actually retire at the age of 41. if i dont want to, i wont have to ever work again, and i wont have any serious responsibilities. i dont regret starting a family that young at all.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> i guess it depends on how we want to live our lives... i got married at 21, and we had our daughter at 22. that means that right about the time i am retiring from the military, my daughter will be old enough to go to college or work on her own, etc.
> 
> so, i will be able to actually retire at the age of 41. if i dont want to, i wont have to ever work again, and i wont have any serious responsibilities. i dont regret starting a family that young at all.


People in the military have always tended to marry young. That was true for my generation (and all the others before me and I’m sure some still do). It was very common for my generation to marry young and have children young. But the current generation doesn’t think that way and I don’t think that’s a bad idea. It’s true they won’t be free at 43 as I was when my child was in college but maybe their divorce rate won’t be as high. Who knows. That’s yet to be written.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Imperfections said:


> I am trying to keep up and get a sense where you are coming from but it’s not easy, given the amount of posts in the last few days alone…(perhaps it is Jordan Peterson rehearsing his much awaited comeback? )
> 
> The (somewhat disturbing) thing is what you write, is actually not all wrong but how you do it will provoke a lot of people. Essentially (and like Peterson) you seem concerned about the various changes and ’new norms’ our society is experiencing (forgive me for paraphrasing but I was not able to read everything). What doesn’t come as clear is whether you are actually advocating scrapping and going ‘back to basics’ or whether instead, we should tweak and adjust.
> 
> ...


When you discover that the revolution (progress) is now causing more harm than good, then one can be more progressive than one's peers by simply working to undo the harmful progress that has been instituted.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Actually, I picture him to be fairly young and inexperienced with people and relationships (not in a bad way!).


Scene: 14 year old Lance, new enrolled in the School of Engineering, being driven to university every morning by his mother, a professor who works there and being driven back home every evening when she finished her office work. Completely blocked off from the evening social activities of my peers. Lance wondering "How the heck I am going to score with these 18 year old girls?" Lance devises a plan, works the angles, and success starts to arrive. Afternoon Delight. 

That would never happen for someone inexperienced with people. Just sayin.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> the marriage is down for both gender. there is the same trend for young women. probably several reasons. they all have seen a lot of divorces around. the other thing many of them are stuck with big college bills and starting family is too expensive.
> My teenage daugther keeps saying she is not getting married ever (that drama age, lol). Based on what she saw going on in our marriage, it is not strange that her opinion of marriage is low.


What she saw in your marriage, probably, was not some new marital innovation the world had never witnessed before. Conflicts between husbands and wives are as old as marriage, and yet being witness to those conflicts never before seemed to put off children from marrying on their own when they too found the love which warranted a marriage.

We're hearing about a lot of women crying "Where have all of the good men gone?" They're gone for a few reasons, some being central to how "good men" are defined, other reasons having to do with the social zeitgeist, and still others with how woman today are socialized differently from past generations (this is what inspires some men to counsel others to marry foreign women (under the mistaken belief that this is a solution.))


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> He might have a chart to show he's not inexperienced with people and relationships.


You're sassy!


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Openminded said:


> The ones in college in my family have all said that 30 is the earliest they would consider getting married, if they marry at all. They can’t imagine why my generation tied themselves down so early in life. I told them it was a much different time then but I don’t disagree with them.


They're simply products of their culture, helplessly going where the current takes them, spouting off conventional wisdom. In this way they're not much different from the men of the 50-60s who were "Company Men" and engaged in the rat race. Those men just went along with the cultural expectations of that era.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Openminded said:


> People in the military have always tended to marry young. That was true for my generation (and all the others before me and I’m sure some still do). It was very common for my generation to marry young and have children young. But the current generation doesn’t think that way and I don’t think that’s a bad idea. It’s true they won’t be free at 43 as I was when my child was in college but maybe their divorce rate won’t be as high. Who knows. That’s yet to be written.


It is a bad idea because it spells the ruin of a nation. You can't have a healthy society, from a systems POV, if your society needs constant external input. The obvious example to illustrate this is massive deficit spending - the bill will come due one day and then there will be much suffering. The less obvious example is the ever growing need for immigration to keep social welfare schemes semi-functional, but were most immigrants are net drains on the economy, from a net present value calculation. If we can't reproduce ourselves, that's a sign of a sick society. Getting married in your 30s limits your family formation window.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

As'laDain said:


> i guess it depends on how we want to live our lives... i got married at 21, and we had our daughter at 22. that means that right about the time i am retiring from the military, my daughter will be old enough to go to college or work on her own, etc.
> 
> so, i will be able to actually retire at the age of 41. if i dont want to, i wont have to ever work again, and i wont have any serious responsibilities. i dont regret starting a family that young at all.


I would have liked to start my family at an earlier age. I envy you. But I was off my optimum by about 4-6 years, so not that much of a sacrifice.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Divinely Favored said:


> Now i tell my boys to run from gingers.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> We're hearing about a lot of women crying "Where have all of the good men gone?" They're gone for a few reasons, some being central to how "good men" are defined, other reasons having to do with the social zeitgeist, and still others with how woman today are socialized differently from past generations (this is what inspires some men to counsel others to marry foreign women (under the mistaken belief that this is a solution.))


well, I see many men here (including you) complaining about today's women, having to much sex and audicity to know what they want.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Lance Mannion said:


> It is a bad idea because it spells the ruin of a nation. You can't have a healthy society, from a systems POV, if your society needs constant external input. The obvious example to illustrate this is massive deficit spending - the bill will come due one day and then there will be much suffering. The less obvious example is the ever growing need for immigration to keep social welfare schemes semi-functional, but were most immigrants are net drains on the economy, from a net present value calculation. If we can't reproduce ourselves, that's a sign of a sick society. Getting married in your 30s limits your family formation window.


My observation is that the young adults of the current generation don’t care a great deal what the older generations think. Why would they? They think they can do so much better (I would say most of us thought that when we were young). In any event, just as we did, they’re going to do what they want to do. I doubt we’ll see a mass return to the days of 20 year olds marrying as was common for my generation and I’m good with that.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> well, I see many men here (including you) complaining about today's women, having to much sex and audicity to know what they want.


"Know what they want." I'm going to have to see more evidence of that. Going with peer pressure is more like it.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Openminded said:


> My observation is that the young adults of the current generation don’t care a great deal what the older generations think. Why would they? They think they can do so much better (I would say most of us thought that when we were young). In any event, just as we did, they’re going to do what they want to do. I doubt we’ll see a mass return to the days of 20 year olds marrying as was common for my generation and I’m good with that.


They're not going to do what THEY want to do, they'll do what they've been CONDITIONED to do.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> They're simply products of their culture, helplessly going where the current takes them, spouting off conventional wisdom. In this way they're not much different from the men of the 50-60s who were "Company Men" and engaged in the rat race. Those men just went along with the cultural expectations of that era.


You seem to need to disparage or pathologize everyone who doesn't do things your way. This may make you seem smart to some people, but to others it has the opposite effect.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> "Know what they want." I'm going to have to see more evidence of that. Going with peer pressure is more like it.


are you again mansplaining to me my life? How do you know what we really want?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> They're not going to do what THEY want to do, they'll do what they've been CONDITIONED to do.


isn't it a rule with everybody. You think what you want comes from you and you only? we all been conditioned by our upbringing, environement, culture.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> are you again mansplaining to me my life? How do you know what we really want?


How much did you consider these factors earlier in your life?


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Openminded said:


> My observation is that the young adults of the current generation don’t care a great deal what the older generations think. Why would they? They think they can do so much better (I would say most of us thought that when we were young). In any event, just as we did, they’re going to do what they want to do. I doubt we’ll see a mass return to the days of 20 year olds marrying as was common for my generation and I’m good with that.


Marriage has a lot to do w/ perceived economic stability, and a lot of young people don't feel like they're on a career path with any of that.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> isn't it a rule with everybody. You think what you want comes from you and you only? we all been conditioned by our upbringing, environement, culture.


But culture changes. Some Smart Johnny gets some new fangled idea, shares that idea with someone else, they devote a lot of effort to proselytizing that idea, get funding from radical billionaires, the idea takes root because of control of the propaganda organs.

So no, we're not all, influenced by our culture, otherwise those Smart Johnnies would not be coming up with new cultural visions.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

You


Lance Mannion said:


> How much did you consider these factors earlier in your life?
> View attachment 73011





Lance Mannion said:


> How much did you consider these factors earlier in your life?
> View attachment 73011


you looking at the world through numbers, missing people. see the forrest, but no trees. You miss the old world where everything was clear for men, women knew their place and didn't want sex. Does that really scare you so much?


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

SpinyNorman said:


> Marriage has a lot to do w/ perceived economic stability, and a lot of young people don't feel like they're on a career path with any of that.


Yes, I agree. There is a lot more to say about THAT but that discussion would entail engaging in economics and politics and would be a real 100% thread-jack on a forum called Talk About Marriage.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> But culture changes. Some Smart Johnny gets some new fangled idea, shares that idea with someone else, they devote a lot of effort to proselytizing that idea, get funding from radical billionaires, the idea takes root because of control of the propaganda organs.
> 
> So no, we're not all, influenced by our culture, otherwise those Smart Johnnies would not be coming up with new cultural visions.


yes, culture changes. Often for better. You just are not able to accept that today's world is not your youth world. Kind of sign of getting older"") - "When I was young, everything was beautiful"


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> You
> 
> 
> you looking at the world through numbers, missing people. see the forrest, but no trees. You miss the old world where everything was clear for men, women knew their place and didn't want sex. Does that really scare you so much?


Take 1000 individual trees and you have a big forest. The forest is just as real as every individual tree. The forest also influence the micro-environment of each tree. A tree standing alone on a plain has a high risk of being destroyed by a lightening strike, the trees in the forest have lower risk. 

So don't discount the importance of looking at what is happening in the aggregate. I well understand how individual can defy the norm. Both ConanHub and I entered into high risk marriages and beat the odds. That doesn't mean that our individual paths are recommended.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> yes, culture changes. Often for better. You just are not able to accept that today's world is not your youth world. Kind of sign of getting older"") - "When I was young, everything was beautiful"


When people say better they are often confusing categories. They look around and see Smart Phones and Amazon and then believe that the convenience produced by both is a sign of things getting better, but that evidence is orthogonal to the topic, which is the social health of society, where all sorts of metrics are painting a different picture.


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## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

Divinely Favored said:


> Just saying that guys like me that were looking for LTR got burned from women who were just in it for the fun. The more girls the more i got discourage with women overall. One i was with even tried to loan me to her BFF for a night. I was 23 and had a 35yr old tall brunette come in our bedroom in a black lace teddy with stockings wanting to know if i wanted to stay with her tonight. With GF approval. Being a loyal partner it was a no. Later caught GF with another guy. Should have known a 34yr old redhead nympho divorcee was not interrested long term in a 23yr old new to the market guy. I was just a boytoy to her. She burnt me on redheads. Now i tell my boys to run from gingers.


Got lost reading the thread with all the pages of statistics and graphs, but this post caught my attention. Your strength far exceeds mine.

Was married with family at that age, but if had been single would have happily allowed either the redhead ( a "nympho" no less ) or brunette or both to wear me out. Had single friends who encountered similar situations, not a one turned the offer(s) down. 

In defense of the redhead, maybe she was just making up for lost years in a sex-starved marriage.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> Got lost reading the thread with all the pages of statistics and graphs, but this post caught my attention. Your strength far exceeds mine.
> 
> Was married with family at that age, but if had been single would have happily allowed either the redhead ( a "nympho" no less ) or brunette or both to wear me out. Had single friends who encountered similar situations, not a one turned the offer(s) down.
> 
> In defense of the redhead, maybe she was just making up for lost years in a sex-starved marriage.


I suspect that Divinely Flavored was operating under a general rule - "Don't have a threesome in a relationship that you want to keep and protect, only have them in a disposable relationship."


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Take 1000 individual trees and you have a big forest. The forest is just as real as every individual tree. The forest also influence the micro-environment of each tree. A tree standing alone on a plain has a high risk of being destroyed by a lightening strike, the trees in the forest have lower risk.
> 
> So don't discount the importance of looking at what is happening in the aggregate. I well understand how individual can defy the norm. Both ConanHub and I entered into high risk marriages and beat the odds. That doesn't mean that our individual paths are recommended.


I don't discount the importance of the aggregate, I look at both. Numbers tell us about society as a whole, but not about individuals. You seem focused only on aggregate, discounting individual level.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> When people say better they are often confusing categories. They look around and see Smart Phones and Amazon and then believe that the convenience produced by both is a sign of things getting better, but that evidence is orthogonal to the topic, which is the social health of society, where all sorts of metrics are painting a different picture.


I don't mean smartphones to make society better.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> When you discover that the revolution (progress) is now causing more harm than good, then one can be more progressive than one's peers by simply working to undo the harmful progress that has been instituted.


I joke around and stuff, but I really have my personal "unpopular" opinion about the feminist movement. 

We all here understand men and women are different. We understand this, but not as something that can be explained so limited or so simply. It's complicated. Lol! 

What I want to know is what are you doing to undo the harmful progress? Can you give examples of what you are doing?

Maybe this way you can be understood better. 

If you went to college at 14 that means your intelligence is not average, you are very gifted. Now, was your social development on par of your IQ?


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> I don't discount the importance of the aggregate, I look at both. Numbers tell us about society as a whole, but not about individuals. You seem focused only on aggregate, discounting individual level.


Individual stories and successes. There really are not an infinite form of successes. 

You know in high school, kids often want to be individuals, not one of the crowd. The kids who feel this way try to find ways to express their individuality. So what happens? Well, for the girl, she may turn Goth. You know, just like the 100 other girls in her school who are expressing their individuality by dressing Goth. That's not individualism at all. You know what girl is expressing as an individual? The nice middle class, popular girl, who decides to start showing up to school dressing as an Amish Girl. She's the true individual, not the copycat Goth Girls.

What's seen as an individual path is often times no more than just an alternate non-individualized philosophy, aka a counter-culture.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> I joke around and stuff, but I really have my personal "unpopular" opinion about the feminist movement.
> 
> We all here understand men and women are different. We understand this, but not as something that can be explained so limited or so simply. It's complicated. Lol!
> 
> ...


Yes, my social development was never stunted. I could sweet talk the older girls, as I bulked up through puberty I played lacrosse, baseball and rugby. Later I got involved in negotiations and sales when I was with my start-up (it was my partners who were more socially retarded.)

What I do is the more difficult issue. I do what I can where I can, which means my family, my immediate social circle, and personnel policies at my companies. Now I'm raising hackles here.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Lance Mannion said:


> They're not going to do what THEY want to do, they'll do what they've been CONDITIONED to do.


That’s your opinion. Mine is different.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

SpinyNorman said:


> Marriage has a lot to do w/ perceived economic stability, and a lot of young people don't feel like they're on a career path with any of that.


The young adults in my family are currently in college and they definitely don’t feel as optimistic about the world as their parents and grandparents did at their age.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Openminded said:


> The young adults in my family are currently in college and they definitely don’t feel as optimistic about the world as their parents and grandparents did at their age.


That's an economic issue though, not a relationship issue. For both men and women it is cheaper to keep a mate than to attract one. So economic insecurity is not really a good reason to put off marrying until you economically secure.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Lance Mannion said:


> Scene: 14 year old Lance, new enrolled in the School of Engineering, being driven to university every morning by his mother, a professor who works there and being driven back home every evening when she finished her office work. Completely blocked off from the evening social activities of my peers. Lance wondering "How the heck I am going to score with these 18 year old girls?" Lance devises a plan, works the angles, and success starts to arrive. Afternoon Delight.
> 
> That would never happen for someone inexperienced with people. Just sayin.


Lance, Lance, Lance...did you not read my disclaimer in parentheses...?? I was NOT criticizing you at all...and I fully understand that I could be wrong!
(But I think you took my meaning of "inexperienced" incorrectly)


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> What I do is the more difficult issue. I do what I can where I can, which means my family, my immediate social circle, and personnel policies at my companies. Now I'm raising hackles here


Giving examples about what you do with your family or immediate social circle is what I'm curious about. 

It could be we all are doing something similar but we haven't really realized the future impact of those actions. 

Again, can you give an example?


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

pastasauce79 said:


> Giving examples about what you do with your family or immediate social circle is what I'm curious about.
> 
> It could be we all are doing something similar but we haven't really realized the future impact of those actions.
> 
> Again, can you give an example?


I have zero problems with teen sexuality, it was central to both mine and my wife's relationship with each other and was openly acknowledged in our two families. The societal problem I see is with promiscuity because of its destabilizing effects. So a teen girl getting sexual with her "committed" partner, fine. Kids hooking up and racking the partner count up as though in a race with each other, bad.

I have personality quirks. I decided at 19 that I would never give my wife a quick peck, never. Instead of a quick peck, I give her a kiss in which there is time to settle in to it, time to "feel" some emotion well up. The kids see this and ask why I give them little pecks but not mommy. So this brings up the issue of how two people bond together, that a bond between mommy and daddy has to be every day. Same thing with a full body hug, enough time for some feelings (and other things) to well up. Sometimes the kids see me pick up mommy and carry her to the bedroom, they laugh, daddy's going to kiss mommy. My wife and I got lucky with our family of origins and found each other, but I can already see that our kids are not going to be so lucky. That pisses me off.

My concern is probably best illustrated by using the Amish again. Imagine that you're a Amish person and you're living in NYC. It's going to be impossible for you to fully express your Amish ways in an social environment where there are few who think like you. Amish living in Amish country have the critical mass to create their micro culture. 

Now, there are people who think like me on these matters, I don't doubt it, the problem is everyone is dispersed and so for our kids, when they enter the world they're not entering into a culture I support, they're entering into a sewer. In this way we're not much different than immigrants who cling to their old culture and despair at how their kids are being Americanized. The thing of it is though, the immigrant chose to come here, I didn't chose for culture to be transformed into a sewer.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> are you again mansplaining to me my life? How do you know what we really want?


Well I read the book so I know....😉


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## Imperfections (Nov 26, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> I have zero problems with teen sexuality, it was central to both mine and my wife's relationship with each other and was openly acknowledged in our two families. The societal problem I see is with promiscuity because of its destabilizing effects. So a teen girl getting sexual with her "committed" partner, fine. Kids hooking up and racking the partner count up as though in a race with each other, bad.
> 
> I have personality quirks. I decided at 19 that I would never give my wife a quick peck, never. Instead of a quick peck, I give her a kiss in which there is time to settle in to it, time to "feel" some emotion well up. The kids see this and ask why I give them little pecks but not mommy. So this brings up the issue of how two people bond together, that a bond between mommy and daddy has to be every day. Same thing with a full body hug, enough time for some feelings (and other things) to well up. Sometimes the kids see me pick up mommy and carry her to the bedroom, they laugh, daddy's going to kiss mommy. My wife and I got lucky with our family of origins and found each other, but I can already see that our kids are not going to be so lucky. That pisses me off.
> 
> ...


What are you comparing it to? To 20 years ago, when you were dating? I doubt all that much changed wrt promiscuity. Or are you thinking more like 80 years ago? 200 years ago? There was a host of other issues back then. 
One should be concerned with keeping culture (and education) going but some general and nebulous idea of female promiscuity is not that high up on my personal list of concerns...
I’m trying to understand why it is on yours?

The problem with these types of statistics is that these trends have very little relevance on how mine or your daughter might behave. You can’t influence national statistics but you can instill certain values into your off spring. That’s probably good enough. Why does it matter how other people may chose to lead their lives?


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Imperfections said:


> What are you comparing it to? To 20 years ago, when you were dating? I doubt all that much changed wrt promiscuity. Or are you thinking more like 80 years ago? 200 years ago? There was a host of other issues back then.
> One should be concerned with keeping culture (and education) going but some general and nebulous idea of female promiscuity is not that high up on my personal list of concerns...
> I’m trying to understand why it is on yours?
> 
> The problem with these types of statistics is that these trends have very little relevance on how mine or your daughter might behave. You can’t influence national statistics but you can instill certain values into your off spring. That’s probably good enough. Why does it matter how other people may chose to lead their lives?


There's been a drastic change in the last ten years, as measured by study participants being hooked up to lie detectors when giving answers on partner counts. Women in that college category now surpass men. That's a first in history. So yes, it's a change.

Why I am concerned. Higher levels of female depression, higher degree of unhappiness, higher risk of divorce.


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## Imperfections (Nov 26, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> There's been a drastic change in the last ten years, as measured by study participants being hooked up to lie detectors when giving answers on partner counts. Women in that college category now surpass men. That's a first in history. So yes, it's a change.


Which college was that? Is that where Caligula got his Masters? I guess don’t send your daughter there then?



Lance Mannion said:


> Why I am concerned. Higher levels of female depression, higher degree of unhappiness, higher risk of divorce.


This business about higher risk of divorce...You do understand why statistics may show higher levels of divorce recently? It used to be much harder for women to get divorced, due to various factors (religion, society etc).
It doesn’t mean couples were happier. Or even wanted to stay together. 
Maybe what they are showing now is closer to reality: that it is ****ing hard to make it work & remain happy long term.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Imperfections said:


> Which college was that? Is that where Caligula got his Masters? I guess don’t send your daughter there then?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Note age 16-30.


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## Imperfections (Nov 26, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> Note age 16-30.
> View attachment 73014


Well, obviously less guys had vaginal intercourse due to...slight lack of vagina (joking)

But in any case, the lines look quite parallel to me. Isn’t that a good thing? (Where was this measured? Can you link to source?)


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

WandaJ said:


> are you again mansplaining to me my life? How do you know what we really want?


Because he's a MAAAN.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> There's been a drastic change in the last ten years, as measured by study participants being hooked up to lie detectors when giving answers on partner counts. Women in that college category now surpass men. That's a first in history. So yes, it's a change.
> 
> Why I am concerned. Higher levels of female depression, higher degree of unhappiness, higher risk of divorce.


What study? How many people participated? It would have to be one gigantic study of people from all over the country and from different socioeconomic situations,with accurate data from a huge amount of people ten years ago and today. Was it?

Haaaa I think not.

Who says higher partner count is a reason for depression, unhappiness and divorce?? How the F would you even control other variables to know that is the causation?????


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Who says higher partner count is a reason for depression, unhappiness and divorce?? How the F would you even control other variables to know that is the causation?????


Never forget the first law of statistics - correlation does not imply causation.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Cletus said:


> Never forget the first law of statistics - correlation does not imply causation.


There's all sorts of studies on these issues and they converge to the same issues.





__





The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness


Founded in 1920, the NBER is a private, non-profit, non-partisan organization dedicated to conducting economic research and to disseminating research findings among academics, public policy makers, and business professionals.




www.nber.org


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## Imperfections (Nov 26, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> Note age 16-30.
> View attachment 73014


I actually do agree with many of the things you bring up...And even share some of the concerns, as a father (I do think some other concerns are perhaps more important for society as a whole at the moment, like conspiracy theories infecting the world like never before due to social media).
I just don’t quite agree with some of the conclusions...(to dismantle everything we achieved and go back to basics/put women back in the bag and keep their sexuality in check; I’m caricaturing your view point (I think?))

I think what will happen (hopefully) is some sort of return to an equilibrium. Girls will be more careful / selective on average of who they sleep with, more aware of potential risks and pitfalls but they will still have that choice and not be stigmatised by society for such choices, one way or another. IMV this would be further progress. (Rather than dismantling of progress).


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Imperfections said:


> I actually do agree with many of the things you bring up...And even share some of the concerns, as a father (I do think some other concerns are perhaps more important for society as a whole at the moment, like conspiracy theories infecting the world like never before due to social media).
> I just don’t quite agree with some of the conclusions...(to dismantle everything we achieved and go back to basics/put women back in the bag and keep their sexuality in check; I’m caricaturing your view point (I think?))
> 
> I think what will happen (hopefully) is some sort of return to an equilibrium. Girls will be more careful / selective on average of who they sleep with, more aware of potential risks and pitfalls but they will still have that choice and not be stigmatised by society for such choices, one way or another. IMV this would be further progress. (Rather than dismantling of progress).


I look at social phenomena as part of a system through a systems analysis perspective. There are multiple factors in play, pull on one string and you affect another string. That's from a solution point of view. This also works from a revolution point of view, a revolutionary is focused on only ONE revolutionary act but that one revolution, that one social change, has wide-ranging unanticipated effects.

Mostly I'm just bothered that degenerates have captured the commanding heights of media and their propaganda is so effective.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> I look at social phenomena as part of a system through a systems analysis perspective. There are multiple factors in play, pull on one string and you affect another string. That's from a solution point of view. This also works from a revolution point of view, a revolutionary is focused on only ONE revolutionary act but that one revolution, that one social change, has wide-ranging unanticipated effects.
> 
> Mostly I'm just bothered that degenerates have captured the commanding heights of media and their propaganda is so effective.


What propaganda is the media promoting regarding this topic exactly. Just a few examples.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> What propaganda is the media promoting regarding this topic exactly. Just a few examples.


I already linked to one such article earlier in this thread.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> What propaganda is the media promoting regarding this topic exactly. Just a few examples.


Here's another one, this time for Sheryl Sandberg - any woman with that dating history is a woman I purposely avoid. People DO NOT need to put their hand on a hot stove element to LEARN that one shouldn't do that, so there is no actual need for women to go with bad boys in order to learn to stay away from bad boys. This is Sandberg giving license to women to settle for their husbands after they gave the best of themselves to other men. 

Sandberg is an idiot.



> *“When looking for a life partner, my advice to women is date all of them: the bad boys, the cool boys, the commitment-phobic boys, the crazy boys. But do not marry them. The things that make the bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands. When it comes time to settle down, find someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home. These men exist and, trust me, over time, nothing is sexier.”*


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Here's another one, this time for Sheryl Sandberg - any woman with that dating history is a woman I purposely avoid. People DO NOT need to put their hand on a hot stove element to LEARN that one shouldn't do that, so there is no actual need for women to go with bad boys in order to learn to stay away from bad boys. This is Sandberg giving license to women to settle for their husbands after they gave the best of themselves to other men.
> 
> Sandberg is an idiot.


And how many will follow that advise? Just because she says that, doesn’t mean now every woman will go loose. Most people make their own decisions. 
and dating before marriage is a good thing, IMHO. You learn what’s important to you, what’s a no-go, hopefully learn from past mistakes


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> And how many will follow that advise? Just because she says that, doesn’t mean now every woman will go loose. Most people make their own decisions.
> and dating before marriage is a good thing, IMHO. You learn what’s important to you, what’s a no-go, hopefully learn from past mistakes


If every person was a cooly rational "logic engine" then we would not be seeing phenomena like the behavior of a group declining to the level of the worst person. We see this with school busing experiments, we see this with psychology experiments, we see this with GNO.

The propaganda sets the Overton Window, the range of what is acceptable, further, that propaganda gives actual license to behave. This is the entire focus of banning cigarette advertising and limiting the advertising to children of certain child-favored products. Sex and the City fueled copy-cat behavior in women who loved that show.

Not all people, not all women, not all men. 

There's some video from North Korea about the public mourning which took place after their elder leader died. People wailing about how everything was doing to end because the relentless propaganda made that buffoon into a living god. We laugh at how simple they must be to belief that hogwash. We're no damn different, it's just we are being fed a different recipe of ********.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> If every person was a cooly rational "logic engine" then we would not be seeing phenomena like the behavior of a group declining to the level of the worst person. We see this with school busing experiments, we see this with psychology experiments, we see this with GNO.
> 
> The propaganda sets the Overton Window, the range of what is acceptable, further, that propaganda gives actual license to behave. This is the entire focus of banning cigarette advertising and limiting the advertising to children of certain child-favored products. Sex and the City fueled copy-cat behavior in women who loved that show.
> 
> ...


Propaganda is part of humankind. You put here propaganda about women sex life, that fits your agenda. There is propaganda of abstinence only sex education. There is propaganda of victimized men and horrible feminists.
You see? If we don’t like something we can simply call it propaganda and all problems solved


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> Propaganda is part of humankind. You put here propaganda about women sex life, that fits your agenda. There is propaganda of abstinence only sex education. There is propaganda of victimized men and horrible feminists.
> You see? If we don’t like something we can simply call it propaganda and all problems solved


We are living in a society where the social revolutionaries are in control. One of the rationales for lifetime appointment of judges is to isolate them from the ideological battles which take place in every society. It was never intended to put social revolutionaries on the bench and to protect them with lifetime appointments. Pushing agendas under cover of law. 

Same thing with universities and education. I have multiple degrees, so I've been on campus for years. It's not a surprise that one form of political identification correlates to number of degrees. What people miss is that this is exactly how indoctrination works, the longer you spend on being indoctrinated, the more you will believe the indoctrination. It's not as is commonly portrayed, a sign of intelligence. (The GRE data falsifies that claim, the lesser mathematically talented favor more grad study, while the more mathematically talented exit higher education and enter the work force because they have saleable skills.)

The best way to measure the effect of propaganda is to look at life outcomes. We have a whole lot of social metrics, not just those dealing with marriage/relationships, which are moving in the wrong direction and have been for quite a while.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> We are living in a society where the social revolutionaries are in control. One of the rationales for lifetime appointment of judges is to isolate them from the ideological battles which take place in every society. It was never intended to put social revolutionaries on the bench and to protect them with lifetime appointments. Pushing agendas under cover of law.
> 
> Same thing with universities and education. I have multiple degrees, so I've been on campus for years. It's not a surprise that one form of political identification correlates to number of degrees. What people miss is that this is exactly how indoctrination works, the longer you spend on being indoctrinated, the more you will believe the indoctrination. It's not as is commonly portrayed, a sign of intelligence. (The GRE data falsifies that claim, the lesser mathematically talented favor more grad study, while the more mathematically talented exit higher education and enter the work force because they have saleable skills.)
> 
> The best way to measure the effect of propaganda is to look at life outcomes. We have a whole lot of social metrics, not just those dealing with marriage/relationships, which are moving in the wrong direction and have been for quite a while.


Oh well, for me you are the result of propaganda of conservative media.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

WandaJ said:


> Oh well, for me you are the result of propaganda of conservative media.


But conservative media is not proselytizing these viewpoints. I have many issues with conservative media. There's no one in conservative media pointing out that the female equivalent of porn is not romance novels but male attention.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> We are living in a society where the social revolutionaries are in control. One of the rationales for lifetime appointment of judges is to isolate them from the ideological battles which take place in every society. It was never intended to put social revolutionaries on the bench and to protect them with lifetime appointments. Pushing agendas under cover of law.
> 
> Same thing with universities and education. I have multiple degrees, so I've been on campus for years. It's not a surprise that one form of political identification correlates to number of degrees. What people miss is that this is exactly how indoctrination works, the longer you spend on being indoctrinated, the more you will believe the indoctrination. It's not as is commonly portrayed, a sign of intelligence. (The GRE data falsifies that claim, the lesser mathematically talented favor more grad study, while the more mathematically talented exit higher education and enter the work force because they have saleable skills.)
> 
> The best way to measure the effect of propaganda is to look at life outcomes. We have a whole lot of social metrics, not just those dealing with marriage/relationships, which are moving in the wrong direction and have been for quite a while.


I don't know I see what you call propaganda as an effort for a correction from historical propaganda that women were generally inferior to men. So the natural correction to that propaganda is for women to seek equality in all aspects of life, one of which would be sexual freedom. There are a lot of things in history were people like you would be saying ahh you can't believe this crap it's the downfall of society. If you were living in South Carolina in 1860 you might say that about abolishing slavery. Abolishing slavery didn't lead to problems for society. Even after the abolition of slavery women were still considered to be the property of men, a father walking his daughter down the aisle use to represent the transfer of ownership. So when the women's lib movement hit it was a course correction. Is it swinging too far now in extreme instances maybe but IMO generally no.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I don't know I see what you call propaganda as an effort for a correction from historical propaganda that women were generally inferior to men. So the natural correction to that propaganda is for women to seek equality in all aspects of life, one of which would be sexual freedom. There are a lot of things in history were people like you would be saying ahh you can't believe this crap it's the downfall of society. If you were living in South Carolina in 1860 you might say that about abolishing slavery. Abolishing slavery didn't lead to problems for society. Even after the abolition of slavery women were still considered to be the property of men, a father walking his daughter down the aisle use to represent the transfer of ownership. So when the women's lib movement hit it was a course correction. Is it swinging too far now in extreme instances maybe but IMO generally no.


You know what is said about respect "It's not owed to you, you earn it." Well, your whole spiel about women relies on this ideology being imposed on those who reject it by using coercive government.

If we continue on with this conversation then we're getting into politics.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> as measured by study participants being hooked up to lie detectors


Lie detectors don't actually work as advertised, their use is predicated upon buying junk pseudoscience.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Personal said:


> Lie detectors don't actually work as advertised, there use is predicated upon buying junk pseudoscience.


I'll see if I can redirect your information to the researchers. Thanks.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> So one woman who had red hair and brown eyes caused you to cast every single woman with red hair and brown eyes in the same category? I think you're doing your sons a disservice.


90% of the redheads i known personally over the years are wilder than a March hare or unstable. All of the brown eyed people i know are on the wild side. It is not just 1 woman.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Personal said:


> Lie detectors don't actually work as advertised, their use is predicated upon buying junk pseudoscience.


All the folks i have seen take tgem that were deceptive later came clean. My office has over 70 a year done.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> 90% of the redheads i known personally over the years are wilder than a March hare or unstable. All of the brown eyed people i know are on the wild side. It is not just 1 woman.


Brown eyed people are on the wild side??

You know that's about 79% of the world's population, right? Haaaaa!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> All the folks i have seen take tgem that were deceptive later came clean. My office has over 70 a year done.


*The Truth About Lie Detectors (aka Polygraph Tests)* - https://www.apa.org/research/action/polygraph

*Lie Detectors Don’t Work as Advertised and They Never Did* - https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/lie-detectors-dont-work-advertised-and-they-never-did-180961956/

*The Polygraph and Lie Detection (2003) Chapter: 8 Conclusions and Recommendations* - https://www.nap.edu/read/10420/chapter/10

The trouble is it often fails to disclose those who are being deceptive and often erroneously categorises people who are being honest as being deceptive. With the errors tending to be more false positives, so innocent people are identified as guilty, while guilty people are misidentified as innocent.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Brown eyed people are on the wild side??
> 
> You know that's about 79% of the world's population, right? Haaaaa!


Yeah. That is one of the weirder things I've heard.

I was as wild as could be for years and I have green eyes. Mrs. Conan has always been more stable and grounded and has brown.

Some of the wildest women I have ever known had blue eyes....


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Divinely Favored said:


> 90% of the redheads i known personally over the years are wilder than a March hare or unstable. All of the brown eyed people i know are on the wild side. It is not just 1 woman.


That's nothing. Spend some time with women with two ears some day if you really want to enjoy Mr. Toad's Wild Ride.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Lance Mannion said:


> There's been a drastic change in the last ten years, as measured by study participants being hooked up to lie detectors when giving answers on partner counts. Women in that college category now surpass men. That's a first in history. So yes, it's a change.
> 
> *Why I am concerned. Higher levels of female depression, higher degree of unhappiness, higher risk of divorce.*


If this is in fact true, then this is what will cause the women in the next generation to correct what they perceive as mistakes in this (and previous) generations. Are things different now...? YES. But worrying about the demise of all society based on the immorality of youth has been done for THOUSANDS of years!!!

What about THIS quote, can you guess who said this? --
"What is happening to our young
people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They
ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions.
Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
That's from Plato c400BC

Or THIS one, when was this written? --
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond
words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise
[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint"
That's from the 8th century BC (Hesiod)

It is human nature to swing back and forth, and I think it's a great sign of things that people are constantly learning and adjusting and trying to improve and correct wrongs for themselves and others (even if I don't agree with what THEY believe every time).

And I don't know if it's the best thing for humans to have everything always the way they want it to be -- challenge and strife builds character and teaches important lessons! We would never find out about ourselves and grow if we weren't always facing frustrations and fears, and trying to overcome obstacles!!

It's great that you have high ideals and a strong desire to maintain them - just don't feel threatened when they are thwarted or challenged (or your children's ideals are challenged), because that's really the best way to clarify and strengthen what you truly believe.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Divinely Favored said:


> All the folks i have seen take tgem that were deceptive later came clean. My office has over 70 a year done.


So you know that no one who tried to lie got away with it.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Cletus said:


> First time I've heard of gingervitus referred to as an STD.
> 
> I hope your boys have an alternate source for good relationship advice.


Youngest said he will find a GF when he gets to Seminary, oldest 21 has been with GF now fiancee since Sophmore HS. Oldest has had his run ins with redheads also in HS. I liked the girl he was in ShowChoir with. She was good kid.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

SpinyNorman said:


> So you know that no one who tried to lie got away with it.


Had some take meds, etc to try to interfere but it was inconclusive. Poligrapher said they have taken something and client admited when we take them ito lab for UA after poly.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


>


Beautiful family!
Redheads were my kryptonite, now I'm gun shy!


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


>


They all have red means you have a red head gene yourself. My oldest has dark brown hair and red beard. I like redheads just ran into alot that were throwed off so to speak.


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## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> If this is in fact true, then this is what will cause the women in the next generation to correct what they perceive as mistakes in this (and previous) generations.


Other than eugenics, can you think of a liberal cultural innovation that has been rescinded?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Rus47 said:


> Got lost reading the thread with all the pages of statistics and graphs, but this post caught my attention. Your strength far exceeds mine.
> 
> Was married with family at that age, but if had been single would have happily allowed either the redhead ( a "nympho" no less ) or brunette or both to wear me out. Had single friends who encountered similar situations, not a one turned the offer(s) down.
> 
> In defense of the redhead, maybe she was just making up for lost years in a sex-starved marriage.


I was never so sick of sex. I wanted to say cant we just hold each other some times. I felt like a a mule that she was trying to ride in the ground. I was like "You're killin me here!"
She had her box of toys and after a round one night and she was laying there out of breath saying "OMG! Where did you learn to do that!"

....Beginners luck i guess....1st time ever picking up a sex toy....and she thought i was a Jedi yielding a light saber.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Yeah. That is one of the weirder things I've heard.
> 
> I was as wild as could be for years and I have green eyes. Mrs. Conan has always been more stable and grounded and has brown.
> 
> Some of the wildest women I have ever known had blue eyes....


Were they Gingers? 🤔😆


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> Were they Gingers? 🤔😆


Blondes and brunettes but there was a very aggressive red head when I was like 8. 😁


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Divinely Favored said:


> All the folks i have seen take tgem that were deceptive later came clean. My office has over 70 a year done.





Divinely Favored said:


> Had some take meds, etc to try to interfere but it was inconclusive. Poligrapher said they have taken something and client admited when we take them ito lab for UA after poly.


I believe that you caught some people who were being deceptive, but it's not clear that no one succeeded in deceiving the polygrapher.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

SpinyNorman said:


> I believe that you caught some people who were being deceptive, but it's not clear that no one succeeded in deceiving the polygrapher.


May have but hopfully not as they are all rapist or pedophiles.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> Now, there are people who think like me on these matters, I don't doubt it, the problem is everyone is dispersed and so for our kids, when they enter the world they're not entering into a culture I support, they're entering into a sewer. In this way we're not much different than immigrants who cling to their old culture and despair at how their kids are being Americanized. The thing of it is though, the immigrant chose to come here, I didn't chose for culture to be transformed into a sewer.



I think like you in those matters. I'm also the immigrant and the "Amish" girl living in NYC.

I am trying to teach my kids how to successfully navigate and survive in this society. I don't think this society is a sewer. This society is just different, because other societies have other problems which can be, in my opinion, even worse than what's going on here.

I survived leaving my culture. A culture which I love and hate at the same time. My views and opinions weren't popular there (too liberal, maybe?)

Now I'm immersed in a culture where some of my opinions are not popular either. It's hard to find a balance, but not impossible. 

I like where my kids are growing up at. I like their environment. I'm nervous about their future but I'm not feeling hopeless about their generation. I'm trying my hardest for them to find their own balance in life. I hope that's enough for them to make smart decisions. That's all I can ask for. It's their life after all. I can't micromanage them and their surroundings, they have to find their own way.


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