# What was she thinking.



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Last night I had a few drinks with some relatives, one of them owns a bar and despite the current restrictions a few of us met up. It was all men, no ladies present. And it’s in Ireland, I’m here at the moment.
At the end it was just one of my cousins and me left, he has stayed in my place in NY with his girlfriend and I considered both of them friends as well as him being my cousin.
He has just broken up with his Fiancée and it has caused a **** storm of epic proportions. She cheated but there’s a lot more to the story. He probably hasn’t told anyone else what really happened but he told me. 
I’m going to call them John and Ann. They are both thirty, met as teenagers in school and almost immediately they were inseparable. When I used to visit Ireland my cousin was always with Ann and she really was accepted as part of the family. Her parents are good friends of John’s family too.
When she was twenty and in college Ann got really sick and eventually she was diagnosed with cervical cancer. The treatment was successful but her and Johns plans for marriage had to be postponed. John stuck by her and attended as many of her medical appointments and chemotherapy sessions as possible, she also had surgery and he was with her every step of the way.
It took a long time but eventually she was able to go back and finish college and everything seemed to be ok.
Then she was involved in a road crash which left her in hospital for almost two years with serious injuries including broken limbs and spinal cord damage from which eventually she had to learn how to walk again.
But she recovered gradually and again John stuck by her and after a long time they started making wedding plans again.
Three weeks ago Ann went to a friends wedding on her own. All functions involving large groups are being strictly managed and the wedding was limited to fifty people, so no plus ones. After the wedding there was a disco and then the guests who weren’t staying overnight started to leave but Ann didn’t. John called to her parents house the following morning (Ann lives at home) and she wasn’t there, she arrived in a taxi and when she seen John she just ran up to her bedroom. John followed her up and she blurted out that she had slept with one of the groomsmen after the wedding.
She tried to explain herself by saying that with all her scarring from the different surgeries she needed to feel that she was still an attractive woman and capable of attracting a man. She said she wasn’t convinced that John wasn’t staying with her out of obligation or whether he still saw her as a desirable woman and she needed to prove something to herself. She said she felt nothing but disgust during and after the sex but she wanted him to know the truth. She didn’t ask him to forgive her and she handed him her engagement ring which she *hadn’t *worn to the wedding. 
John told her they were finished and she had broken his heart. 
The family is in uproar about him breaking up with Ann and he hasn’t told anyone about her cheating, in fact he has refused to discuss it with anyone except his parents and now with me. The general consensus is that he broke up with her because of worries about future medical issues and her inability to have children because of her injuries. 
He didn’t ask for advice and I didn’t offer any but he asked me for my opinion and I said I’d have to think about it. 
Opinions?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

John is a Saint, but not a Martyr.

Ann did what she did to unload John, she was repeatedly broken on the outside and inside.
And she suffered some sort of brain damage.
Believe me.

She did not like all the doting and concern that he showed her. She wanted her independence.
This thinking from a damaged mind.

John's parents will eventually tell the truth to the others, leaving John, a tolerated outsider, looking in.

I had a friend who got in a terrible car crash, I was in the back seat but not when he hit a stone wall.

I got tossed out of the car when he first hit a utility pole with his high powered 1957 Buick.

My friend was never the same after that. He went from extremely friendly to erratic, to short tempered, ugh, just angry all the time.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

People come up with all sorts of reasons to cheat. Her reasoning could be true, sure wouldn't be the first person to feel like that. But it can also be hard to step out of the caregiver/patient type role once you're in it. She also could have felt like a burden and wanted to let him go for his sake, etc. Who knows. She didn't wear her engagement ring to the wedding, so unless that's normal for her, she obviously planned for it to happen. Whether it's what she said or it was more of an exit affair, only she knows. 

Personally, I don't think there is a need to shout from the rooftop what she did but I would also clarify why I left. It doesn't have to be detailed, just a simple "actually, she cheated" would do and the rest is no one's business. Or he can just tell people they are wrong about their assumption is and to mind their own business.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Her reasons are ********. They show how little she values John.

Her not being able to have children and possible future medical issues are all legitimate reasons not to marry. 

Does John not want anyone to know? He wants your opinion on what - her cheating, him calling off the marriage, what? It's good he found out now as divorce in Ireland is a *****.

Now Ann can add cheater to those scars which she fears will turn off men.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I do think that he needs to tell close family and close friends at least. 
The fact that she didnt wear her engagement ring to the wedding shows that she was looking for someone from the start, and she found him. Very sad but the excuses are just that, excuses, we here have heard them all before.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Her reasons are ******. They show how little she values John.
> 
> Her not being able to have children and possible future medical issues are all legitimate reasons not to marry.
> 
> ...


If I was reading this post and it was written by someone else I would be equally cynical believe me. But when you know the people involved it’s a bit different.
And besides all the emotional feelings there’s also a financial situation and this is why John asked me for my opinion. There’s a business that both of them share a fifty percent interest in and guess who the other fifty percent is owned by. John paid his share with money he inherited (another story) but Ann’s share was paid for by her parents and they probably had to borrow the money. Because of covid the business is in limbo so there’s no income coming in and this of course means that Ann has no way of paying her loan back.
It’s a ****ing ****show and if it was anyone else I would just let them sort it out themselves, in fact I would see it as an opportunity but I can’t treat family like I would treat anyone else.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Not quite the same experience, yet my ex-wife cheated on me at a party while I was away. Followed by her confessing her betrayal with considerable guilt, very quickly upon my return. Absent her confession I wouldn't have known about what she did.

Anyway like your cousin, I ended our relationship almost immediately and except for telling my closest friend at the time I told no one about what she had done.

So as a consequence of telling no one else, I was considered the bad guy for ending our marriage with no cause. Yet I felt it wasn't there business and also felt embarrassed by what she had done to me.

Given that John hasn't told everyone what she has done, he should know he will always be considered the bad guy by many. Although even if he did share what she did. There would still be people who think he is the bad guy in this, considering what she has been through. And I say this since my ex-wife became mentally ill after our marriage (it runs in her family), yet I ended it because of her infidelity.

I will also add that he may get some pressure to reconcile with her, especially since he hasn't disclosed her infidelity. Of which from my own experience, I encourage him not to go down that path. Given he stuck by her through so much, yet she still betrayed him.

Since I briefly (2 weeks of a few dates) went down that path and felt more hatred for my ex-wife as a consequence. While I also felt disgusted with myself for putting my **** inside her after what she had done. Especially since she went running to the other guy, immediately after I ended things in the first instance.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Oh wow, how awful! After all he'd done for her, and the way he stuck by her no matter what...wow.

I do think he should tell the truth if asked why he ended it. Just "she slept with someone else" is enough. No need for more detail. 

As for the business side of things, he owes her nor her parents a darn thing. Business is business, he needs to do what he needs to do.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@Andy1001 I think it is possible that she was bored with him. She might have decided to do something really bad in order for him to break the engagement so that she didn't have to. Either having sex or confessing to s fictitious one night stand.

After all, she knew how he would react.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@Andy1001 who set the wedding at only 50 guests?

Also was it in Northern Ireland or Eire? There is a reason why this is relevant.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> If I was reading this post and it was written by someone else I would be equally cynical believe me. But when you know the people involved it’s a bit different.
> And besides all the emotional feelings there’s also a financial situation and this is why John asked me for my opinion. There’s a business that both of them share a fifty percent interest in and guess who the other fifty percent is owned by. John paid his share with money he inherited (another story) but Ann’s share was paid for by her parents and they probably had to borrow the money. Because of covid the business is in limbo so there’s no income coming in and this of course means that Ann has no way of paying her loan back.
> It’s a ****ing ****show and if it was anyone else I would just let them sort it out themselves, in fact I would see it as an opportunity but I can’t treat family like I would treat anyone else.


So, I don't think the business dealings should have any bearing on the fact that he should tell his family what she did.
As for the "paid by the parents" well, the fact that SHE has no way of paying back her parents -- NOT John's issue at all now. These are always risks of losing money when you run a business.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> @Andy1001 who set the wedding at only 50 guests?


Covid regulations have set some very strict rules regarding large gatherings, weddings, funerals etc. The rules have gotten worse in the last week or so and now the fifty people max includes hotel staff!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

He is a magnitude too good for this emotionally retarded wench.

What a loser. Tell him to invest time in a human this time.

What a lame excuse she tried...


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> He is a magnitude too good for this emotionally retarded wench.
> 
> What a loser. Tell him to invest time in a human this time.
> 
> What a lame excuse she tried...


How’s it going buddy, thanks for replying. 
It’s like I said to @Blondilocks, it’s different when you know the people involved. 
If this happened ten years ago I would just say to John tough ****, go and get laid and forget about Ann. 
But these are my friends.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> How’s it going buddy, thanks for replying.
> It’s like I said to @Blondilocks, it’s different when you know the people involved.
> If this happened ten years ago I would just say to John tough ****, go and get laid and forget about Ann.
> But these are my friends.


I think aquaintance is the best the cheater can hope for. She is worthless as a mate and, friendship or not, you know it.

I do think she should get help to fix her overwhelming malfunction but she is only good for a cheap piece of ass for a horny groomsman right now.

Your man deserves far more. He is a truly good man.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> Last night I had a few drinks with some relatives, one of them owns a bar and despite the current restrictions a few of us met up. It was all men, no ladies present. And it’s in Ireland, I’m here at the moment.
> At the end it was just one of my cousins and me left, he has stayed in my place in NY with his girlfriend and I considered both of them friends as well as him being my cousin.
> He has just broken up with his Fiancée and it has caused a **** storm of epic proportions. She cheated but there’s a lot more to the story. He probably hasn’t told anyone else what really happened but he told me.
> I’m going to call them John and Ann. They are both thirty, met as teenagers in school and almost immediately they were inseparable. When I used to visit Ireland my cousin was always with Ann and she really was accepted as part of the family. Her parents are good friends of John’s family too.
> ...


Who cares what she was thinking. What is he thinking not telling everyone. Like I always say, the Knight in shining armor is killed for the damsel, it's the Prince who gets the girl. Andy you have read on here long enough you know how this goes. I mean why are we even assuming this is her first time? This was probably planned out for a long time, she probably knew this guy longer then he knows too. She was selfish, that doesn't just start out of the blue. Hard luck doesn't make someone a cheater, poor character does. If he hadn't caught her he would have never known. She is just a common ordinary cheater, like all the rest, she was thinking what he doesn't know won't hurt him. He gave it more then enough, she doesn't love him the way he will need a wife too. Bottom line he needs to tell everyone the truth and he can do better. There is no point to giving loyalty to someone isn't loyal.

Seriously Andy you have been on this site almost as long as I have, you have read all the stories. If these people weren't your friends what would you say? Your friend is making the right decision don't do anything to change that. He will have a much better life without her. They are not even married yet, this should be one of the happiest times in their relationship and she willingly planed to go **** some guy to make herself feel good. She failed, and is not good wife material, your friend dumping her on the spot show how much character he has. Is this a good choice for someone to be with the rest of his life. Particularly when he has been so good to her? He can do better. Help reinforce his decision. That guy is to be admired.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Personal said:


> Not quite the same experience, yet my ex-wife cheated on me at a party while I was away. Followed by her confessing her betrayal with considerable guilt, very quickly upon my return. Absent her confession I wouldn't have known about what she did.
> 
> Anyway like your cousin, I ended our relationship almost immediately and except for telling my closest friend at the time I told no one about what she had done.
> 
> ...


Why didn't you just tell everyone?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I don't know that everyone needs to know but some do.

He is a man that most should aspire to be like in loyalty and love.

No one should be treating him like a villain.

It is very telling that the side piece for a ****ing groomsman isn't setting the record straight and accepting responsibility for her behavior.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Over and over and over, guys who are overly protective of the women they are with get cheated on. It's like water is wet. As soon as you start to worship your girl and treat her more like a thing that needs to be protected then a living an breathing person you end up in very deep trouble.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

She went to that wedding with the intention of cheating, which is why she left her ring at home. Also, I've never heard of any wedding where +1's were forbidden. Who even goes to weddings alone? 

I'm going to guess that what she did was no secret at the wedding and she only confessed before the rumors spread back to her fiance. I also think that's why she came to him acting like she was disgusted by the whole thing. If that were true, she could have backed out at any time. She did not. 

In answer to your question, I think she is a self-centered POS. If her fiance stood by her through all of her hardships and he did so loyally, this is how he is repaid for it? This woman disgusts me. Your buddy should get far away from her.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> She went to that wedding with the intention of cheating, which is why she left her ring at home. Also, *I've never heard of any wedding where +1's were forbidden. Who even goes to weddings alone?*


Pre Covid, almost no one. These days, there are restrictions to numbers, so you have to be ruthless when making guest lists.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> Also, I've never heard of any wedding where +1's were forbidden.


I lived in the UK for 20 years. I was there during the time that my ex's friends and family were getting married. They have this habit of writing the invitees' name on the invitation card to make it clear that not everyone in the household is invited. My ex's cousin was getting married. They sent one invitation to my exMIL's house with her name, all 3 kids' name and my name. My exBIL had been living with his gf for about 5 years at that point, visiting exMIL fairly regularly and she still wasn't invited.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Well, Andy, that's a bit of a pickle you've gotten yourself into. You know what you have to do - you and John have to talk to her parents and sort out the financials. You can probably afford to take on the debt and then you'll own 75% of the business and John will own 25% - that is if John even wants to continue the business. Please tell me the business isn't the bar.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> @Andy1001 who set the wedding at only 50 guests?
> 
> Also was it in Northern Ireland or Eire? There is a reason why this is relevant.


Sorry @MattMatt I just noticed the second part of your question. This all happened in Southern Ireland.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Well, Andy, that's a bit of a pickle you've gotten yourself into. You know what you have to do - you and John have to talk to her parents and sort out the financials. You can probably afford to take on the debt and then you'll own 75% of the business and John will own 25% - that is if John even wants to continue the business. Please tell me the business isn't the bar.


You told me before that I’m very observant. You’re not too bad yourself lol. 
Yes it’s the bar, but because of the covid regulations its been closed since March and only opened up again last week.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> You told me before that I’m very observant. You’re not too bad yourself lol.
> Yes it’s the bar, but because of the covid regulations its been closed since March and only opened up again last week.


Can everybody keep their heads sorted?

Keep business and personal separate?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Was the bar a thriving enterprise before the shutdown or was it just limping along? You have some serious contemplation to do. It is said that charity begins at home; but, dang man, do you want to be bankrolling your cousin for the rest of your life?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Was the bar a thriving enterprise before the shutdown or was it just limping along? You have some serious contemplation to do. It is said that charity begins at home; but, dang man, do you want to be bankrolling your cousin for the rest of your life?


The bar was very successful and when we bought it we got a great deal. Even as things stand we could sell it for more than we paid for it. 
I broke a very important rule when I invested, I always warn people never to go into business with family. The annoying thing is both John and Ann really worked hard to keep the place going, sometimes seven days a week. 
I intended to sell them my share in the future anyway because I don’t want to have anything to do with running the place.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> If I was reading this post and it was written by someone else I would be equally cynical believe me. But when you know the people involved it’s a bit different.
> And besides all the emotional feelings there’s also a financial situation and this is why John asked me for my opinion. There’s a business that both of them share a fifty percent interest in and guess who the other fifty percent is owned by. John paid his share with money he inherited (another story) but Ann’s share was paid for by her parents and they probably had to borrow the money. Because of covid the business is in limbo so there’s no income coming in and this of course means that Ann has no way of paying her loan back.
> It’s a ****ing ****show and if it was anyone else I would just let them sort it out themselves, in fact I would see it as an opportunity but I can’t treat family like I would treat anyone else.


Sorry for not picking up the gist of what your predicament was.

Mrs. C and I have been having a mini war about our oldest and I wasn't getting everything.

It is a ****storm financially.

How is your cousin sitting?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> @Andy1001 I think it is possible that she was bored with him. She might have decided to do something really bad in order for him to break the engagement so that she didn't have to. Either having sex or confessing to s fictitious one night stand.
> 
> After all, she knew how he would react.


Good opinion.

The pressure of life, especially 2020, the year of Hell, added mightily to her anxiety.

People on TAM only see her cheating. They see her as an ungrateful lady who threw everything away for another man's ****. It doesn't happen this way. As Matt and others pointed out this was an exit affair. She needed to do something horrible to get away from John.....who would not leave otherwise!

I have more to add to this, on anxiety....some of this anxiety can come from outside sources.

Such that, most are troubled, mentally from those unpleasant aspects. In her case they had to be HARD aspects.
Umm.

In Ann's case, she was slammed HARD, both physically and mentally. 

Life came at her cruelly.

In the end, it damaged her body from (cancer), and her body from the car wreck. 
Likely, her mind, also.

The car wreck may have been her fault, somehow, (say, her not being alert), or life just came at her and slammed her, it not being her fault, at all

_Or, this accident was a suicide attempt?_

I won't bore any of you, anymore with this!

Ann is a troubled woman. I hope she recovers from this.

*Most people look at life through a microscope, or binoculars, at a small area.
Yes.*

I hope her private crap storm ends, peacefully.
_I doubt it. She is in for a rough ride.


King Brian-_


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Don't know... she's been through a lot... maybe what she says it's true. I would forgive her. But then I'm a push over kind of guy...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Don't know... she's been through a lot... maybe what she says it's true. I would forgive her. But then I'm a push over kind of guy...


What about the next time she wants some validation? 

Working with a spouse sounds like a grand plan until the 24/7 togetherness starts to grate on their nerves and they start to feel like a cornered animal. And, working in a bar would afford ample opportunity to look for greener pastures.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I still can't get over the cliches.

A groomsman after a wedding?

Needing to feel attractive and getting validation from some strange?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> What about the next time she wants some validation?


Only one more chance...


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

Andy, you know them both well, but we don't always know everything that goes on in other's relationships/behind closed doors.

Your mate sounds like an honourable man, that loves from a perspective of idealism... It is a shame that many look upon that as something to take advantage of, or find it to be confining, and not valued for what it represents. 

At a primal level, perhaps he wasn't 'floating her boat'. This isn't said in a callous way, but rather because he has spent so much time by her side helping her, looking after her above and beyond, that her 'base' attraction to him was MIA.

Maybe something just clicked in her head. She had been through alot (and he has too of course) and wasn't in her right mind. The not wearing her ring to a wedding does raise alarm bells to it being pre-emptive. Adults know what can go on at weddings when there are single people around and all happy happy vibes. 

At the end of the day, what she was 'thinking' is miniscule, compared to what she _did_


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I went back and read Andy's opening post. I recommend everyone do this.

She contracted cervical cancer and beat that back...so far. 
(Cancer often returns in another part of your body).

She got in a road crash and she spent 2 years in the hospital and had to learn how to stand and walk again. 

When she cheated, she said she needed to find out if she was still sexually attractive.
Ask yourself, why did she say that, more, why did she feel this way?

Did John _not_ show her physical affection and love during the last 2-3 years? 
Did she think John was stepping out on her during this time period?

Did he not reassure her of her attractiveness?
From her response, it sounds like no.

I know, she could not stand or walk and any love making had to be done 'carefully',_ if at all,_ _initially_.
He could have given her plenty of deep kisses and massages, at some point later.

I am *not* totally excusing her behavior, but I am willing to give her a 'break' from further punishment.

Sounds she did this from a point of anger, of desperation, of self destruction, that cutting....... her cutting off those close.

I sniffed Andy's post, I smelled no spite anywhere. 
However, I do suspect it played a part in her thinking.

She came home flustered, ran up stairs and says "I did it, I cheated on you!"
Not wearing her engagement ring, she planned on doing this.

I vote *spite* and destructive behavior as her leading reasons for cheating. 
She had some reason for getting back at John. A good reason or not, she had one.

She was at her ropes end and she acted out foolishly and in a self destructive manner.

Not all humans are rational creatures.

John is somehow implicated in this. 
From the outside, he seemed the perfect fiancee. 
Was he?

Only he and Ann, know the truth.

No, John should not re-engage Ann.
Too much bad JuJu surrounding the two.

Some power beyond these two do not want them together.
Umm.


_Gwendolyn-_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> I went back and read Andy's opening post. I recommend everyone do this.
> 
> She contracted cervical cancer and beat that back...so far.
> (Cancer often returns in another part of your body).
> ...


Lots of speculation.

I definitely think she has a screw loose as well as being a loose screw but who loosened said screw besides the obviously handy man groomsman?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Life is short... for some who face things that could shorten it further, they panic and such panic often isn't pretty.

Sadly she walked her fear alone instead of sharing where both could have made compassionate decisions.

She chose without him, and while painful she saved a lot of future pain... at least for him.

Her suffering may last much longer than his...


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Even WITH the speculation, NO excuse to go bang someone else-- and yes it was planned with her leaving off her engagement ring.
John should make sure that ring STAYS off of her finger (at least his ring). To do all that he did and stand by her through all of this and THIS is how she repays him?

Come on Andy, you know this is flat out wrong.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> I went back and read Andy's opening post. I recommend everyone do this.
> 
> She contracted cervical cancer and beat that back...so far.
> (Cancer often returns in another part of your body).
> ...


If all the tragedy in her life caused her to act out and destroy the primary relationship in her life that is very very sad. However, really the question for John is what will his life be. Seems he has wisely decided his life will be diminished. It's a sunk cost, time to move on. Truthfully they are not married, and there are no kids. The advice in this circumstance is almost always to move on. An he was giving up a lot to be with her, perfectly willing to do that. But now it's probably just not worth it anymore.

Oh - And this -



> Did John not show her physical affection and love during the last 2-3 years? Did she think John was stepping out on her during this time period? Did he not reassure her of her attractiveness? From her response, it sounds like no


This is classic blame shifting. John is not responsible for her cheating.

The idea that him separating his life from her from cheating is "punishment" Is a joke. But that kind of entitled thinking is a good example of what leads to cheating. Let's translate. She had a hard life he didn't kiss her enough, so no wonder she cheated, and really she shouldn't be punished for that, John should just shut up and get over it. (All of this assumed by you with no evidence) If he was only a better guy) meanwhile he was willing to forgo having kids to be with her and stood by her for years. You act like he didn't have to sacrifice his physical relationship to be with her as well. 



> She had some reason for getting back at John. A good reason or not, she had one.


Everyone has their reasons.



> John is somehow implicated in this.
> From the outside, he seemed the perfect fiancee.
> Was he?


That's the bar for not cheating with you huh? Is anyone the perfect anything?



> Some power beyond these two do not want them together.


It's outside forces huh? Not her choices.

You can't be serious with this post.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> If all the tragedy in her life caused her to act out and destroy the primary relationship in her life that is very very sad. However, really the question for John is what will his life be. Seems he has wisely decided his life will be diminished. It's a sunk cost, time to move on. Truthfully they are not married, and there are no kids. The advice in this circumstance is almost always to move on. An he was giving up a lot to be with her, perfectly willing to do that. But now it's probably just not worth it anymore.
> 
> Oh - And this -
> 
> ...


I am 'almost' always serious in my posts.

In this one....Yessir.

The blame shifting theorem was necessary to determine just what it is that caused her to crash....again, mentally, as shown by her cheating.

There is a 'reason' for everything....everything. Sometime there is a root cause.
With humans it is usually more than one cause.

If you had read clearly you would have noted my disclaimer, she is morally wrong per societal norms, she cheated, John did not. 

She acted unwisely.
She should have dumped John, rather than cheating on him.
She did not, she wanted to make a point to him, and create this horrible outcome.

I believe she is not her own person, and she is subject to ill wind...

*You are not the forgiving type, most aren't. *

I am only trying to find out the why of this tragedy, not throw stones. 

Anyone can rock, pitch.
Umm.

My views on outer forces impinging on/in human dealings is not a popular one, no doubt about it!

It opens me up to ridicule. 
Ask me if I care!

I do care, but not much, never did.

I am just another _directed _voice for reasons not entirely my own.

You sir, sound the broken record on infidelity.
You are far from being alone.

Me, I stand far apart from common thinking. 

Yea, my problem, and yes, made yours, by my posting.


Are Dee- and others in my head.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

To answer a few points raised. 
Ann wasn’t drunk at the wedding and she never claimed to be. 
The car crash *was* an accident. 
She was technically still living with her parents but spent most nights with John in his apartment over the bar.
I don’t know what their sex life was like and I don’t know how long they didn’t have sex for during and after the time Ann got hurt. I do know that John was very careful not to let her over exert herself when she was back on her feet after the accident and maybe as has been suggested she started resenting him. 
As far as being with each other 24/7, because the bar was closed John was working for his Dad so he was out all day. 
John is adamant that the relationship is over and I believe him. He’s not the saint that people may think he is but he is a stand up guy who will never tolerate Ann cheating on him. 
He only told me what happened because I backed him and Ann financially when the opportunity to buy the bar arose. 
I feel really bad about this, for both of them.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> I feel really bad about this, *for both* of them.


That is good, and, so do I.

For _my_ feeling this way, some were angered at my responses.

They _only_ see the cheating.

Cheating is bad, it can be a symptom of mental imbalance, sometimes, merely, that flat-out selfishness.

...............................................................................................................................

One of my first memorable readings on TAM was _Weltschmertz_'s sad thread.

His wife went out of town (in England) and secretly met up with her horrible ex-boyfriend. She denied having sex with him but did admit to kissing.

I suggested to OP to forgive her...
She too, was a broken woman.

_[?]-_


----------



## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

This is especially difficult because John and Ann are your family, friends and business associates. You will likely be around them off and on for many years.

It may be a matter of semantics, but IMO she broke up with him--did something she knew would end the relationship and handed him the ring--not he broke up with her. I think he should privately say to his dad that she cheated and he would discuss it no further. Of course, dad would tell mom and so forth.

We could guess why forever--to me perhaps she wanted to have sex with someone else (were they one and onlys?), she may have thought she had more feelings for him as a brother than boyfriend after all this time--something selfish---------or she knew she could possibly not have children and acted in a selfless way--knowing he would again stand by her unless she did the unthinkable. Self-esteem/attractiveness questions seem the most shallow of possibilities. Why would she plan to hurt him so if she loved him? She knew the ramifications financially, relationship wise, emotionally, etc. This came out of the blue--was their marriage imminent?

I would guess your opinion carries a lot of weight and is the same here as advice and you were wise to respond the way you did--three weeks ago. If you remain neutralish, you will be comfortable with whatever ensues.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

jlg07 said:


> He should have divorced her BEFORE he did this.


Now I DO agree with you in this one.

He should have divorced her much much sooner. 

He is a good man but he is also a clueless, socially naive and awkward computer nerd. 

All his friends and family warned him to stay away from her and even HER friends warned him not to marry her. The dumb arse did it anyway. 

So yes, he should have divorced her before banging the bridesmaid. He should have divorced her upon returning home. 

Heck, he should have divorced her the day after their wedding the way she treated him at the wedding party and the wedding night.


----------



## Violet28 (Oct 4, 2018)

Sad for him but likely a blessing in disguise. He's used to protecting her so that's probably why he's not telling anyone about her cheating. You have to wonder if they'd have stayed together if she'd never gotten sick.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I'm sure he isn't a saint but he is tried and true through hardship and proven his love and loyalty.

Good, solid traits that are sometimes hard to come by.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

@Andy1001 

Do Ann's parents know what is going on?

Ann needs some help of some sort.

Regardless of what was motivating her, she did something very destructive to herself and everyone close to her.

She could use some sort of professional help and keeping a lid on everything could result in continuing destructive behavior and possibly worse than she has already done.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> @Andy1001
> 
> Do Ann's parents know what is going on?
> 
> ...


If an adult male scores some tail at a wedding do we run to his parents and say that he needs professional help? 

Is this part of a double standard where female sexuality is always on the edge of being suspected of some kind of pathology?


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I echo that sentiment, Conan. I think Ann is at risk of spiralling downwards and likely in need of support. Some may suggest ‘why care?’ ...but Andy, you know them as full and faulty people who you obviously care for, and in this scenario, I also feel for them both. And likely in part because of you being good with them, Andy.

I have no other words to offer. It just seems like a crappy scenario for everyone.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> If an adult male scores some tail at a wedding do we run to his parents and say that he needs professional help?
> 
> Is this part of a double standard where female sexuality is always on the edge of being suspected of some kind of pathology?


No. This is my opinion based on over two decades of helping people do to being in ministry and working hand in hand with authorities and medical professionals of all kinds.

This girl isn't one of your swinger friends and her pattern of life indicates a very real possibility of serious mental and/or emotional health problems do to a very eradic and destructive choice.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> Is this part of a double standard where female sexuality is always on the edge of being suspected of some kind of pathology?


No, I don’t think it is. Instead, to me it is considering Andy’s view of them combined with some immaturity and knocks in life. It is not justifying her actions. It does give perspective for empathy though. No one is excusing the behaviour; simply considering ‘what was she thinking’... and my own speculation is this is a woman who has been broken, faced some stuff that many young people don’t, and her man adopted a part-carer role. There’s different ways that can go, depending on maturity, upbringing, self-worth, and such. Anyway, the more I think on this scenario, the more I really feel for them both.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

heartsbeating said:


> I echo that sentiment, Conan. I think Ann is at risk of spiralling downwards and likely in need of support. Some may suggest ‘why care?’ ...but Andy, you know them as full and faulty people who you obviously care for, and in this scenario, I also feel for them both. And likely in part because of you being good with them, Andy.
> 
> I have no other words to offer. It just seems like a crappy scenario for everyone.


I'm actually a hard ass with my own friends when they do something stupid but after I give them a good hard correction, I'm there for them.

If this girl was my friend, I would have chewed her out and then helped her anyway I could.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It does look like this was her way to end the relationship. Why she chose this way is the $64,000 question.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

That's a tough situation Andi, I'm sorry. I think the only person who can answer the question is Ann. It's possible she resents all his support throughout her medical problems. It sounds stupid on the surface but if she wanted to give up and he wouldn't let her and she's now depressed, etc she might blame him for her state of mind. It wouldn't be the first time I've heard that story. 

As far as the bar goes, I guess it's up to you how you want to handle it? Could you guys just make her a silent partner?


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

notmyjamie said:


> That's a tough situation Andi, I'm sorry. I think the only person who can answer the question is Ann. It's possible she resents all his support throughout her medical problems. It sounds stupid on the surface but if she wanted to give up and he wouldn't let her and she's now depressed, etc she might blame him for her state of mind. It wouldn't be the first time I've heard that story.
> 
> As far as the bar goes, I guess it's up to you how you want to handle it? Could you guys just make her a silent partner?


I’m the silent partner, hardly anyone besides both families know that I bankrolled the bar. Any time I’ve been in there even with other family members, the fact that I own half of the place has never been mentioned and this is at my insistence. 
When we bought the place we agreed that if things didn’t work out for either party then the other party would get first refusal at the original purchase price. This was my way of making sure that they could buy my share anytime and I wouldn’t be looking to make a profit.
I’m getting a sinking feeling in my gut that before this year is out I’m going to own a bar.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not necessarily saying you are wrong. You may be right in the money and she may have a hitch in her gitalong that needs some attention.
> 
> But what I am saying is any time we think a woman’s sexuality is dipping into the pathological, we need to ask ourselves if we would think a male doing the same thing was having mental issues or some form of illness or dysfunction.
> 
> ...


That being said, her BF has every right to dump her azz. 

If he doesn’t want to be with someone who gets drunk and bangs some dashing dude in a tux because she has some insecurities and wants some validation on a weekend away from home, that is his prerogative and IMHO that is responsible in his part. 

But sleazy and distasteful behavior is not always pathological behavior. 

You have to look at it in the context of the rest of their behaviors in other areas of their lives.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not necessarily saying you are wrong. You may be right in the money and she may have a hitch in her gitalong that needs some attention.
> 
> But what I am saying is any time we think a woman’s sexuality is dipping into the pathological, we need to ask ourselves if we would think a male doing the same thing was having mental issues or some form of illness or dysfunction.
> 
> ...


I'm very up to date on female sexuality and regardless, men still aren't women.

Needles to say, this woman isn't a good time girl and this is erratic and destructive behavior.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I'm very up to date on female sexuality and regardless, men still aren't women.
> 
> Needles to say, this woman isn't a good time girl and this is erratic and destructive behavior.


That may be true. 

But she hasn’t had a weekend away from the doting BF in a long time and maybe she wanted to be a good time girl for a weekend. 

I think it comes down to what has the higher standard of evidence. 

If one is going to assert that an adult woman is having mental issues that requires parental intervention and professional help - that requires a higher standard of evidence than a chick out of town partying it up and hitting it with some handsome dude. 

When you hear clippity clop clippity clop coming down the street, one should think of horses before they think zebras. 

If one is going to say a gal is nutso requiring intervention, you would need more evidence and a show a bigger pattern of inappropriate and irresponsible behavior that getting down with some horny dude on a partying weekend away from home and away from her doting BF. 

The higher burden of proof falls on showing pathology than a drunken girl at a party behaving badly.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> That may be true.
> 
> But she hasn’t had a weekend away from the doting BF in a long time and maybe she wanted to be a good time girl for a weekend.
> 
> ...


I think you are out of touch on this one based on my experience and this girls history.

Where was it noted she was drunk?

She also took her ring off beforehand.

She inflicted a lot of destruction on herself and those close to her.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I think you are out of touch on this one based on my experience and this girls history.
> 
> Where was it noted she was drunk?
> 
> ...





ConanHub said:


> I think you are out of touch on this one based on my experience and this girls history.
> 
> Where was it noted she was drunk?
> 
> ...


If she wasn’t drunk and she didn’t wear her ring, that further illustrates my point that this was mindful behavior.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> That may be true.
> 
> But she hasn’t had a weekend away from the doting BF in a long time and maybe she wanted to be a good time girl for a weekend.
> 
> ...


It was specifically stated that Ann was not *drunk* at the party. Therefore your remark about "_The higher burden of proof falls on showing pathology than a drunken girl at a party behaving badly_" is totally irrelevant to this thread, because she wasn't drunk.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Moderator note:* I just had to clear up some threadjacking, so no more threadjacks, please.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> It was specifically stated that Ann was not *drunk* at the party. Therefore your remark about "_The higher burden of proof falls on showing pathology than a drunken girl at a party behaving badly_" is totally irrelevant to this thread, because she wasn't drunk.


Ok I stand corrected on the drinking.

But to me that just shows further evidence of mindful and purposeful behavior vs irrational and out of control behavior requiring professional intervention.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

It's clear she's been through some trauma. A woman finding out she may never be able to have children usually has some emotional upset and trauma from that. Add in her accident and all that entailed and she's ripe for some serious emotional problems. Add in that she just threw away her LTR and it's not such a stretch to say she might need some professional counseling to make sure she is okay.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

IIRC, she found out nearly a decade ago that she would not be able to have children.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Blondilocks said:


> IIRC, she found out nearly a decade ago that she would not be able to have children.


That means nothing...some people bury their feelings about things very deeply...but not deep enough. They always resurface. Just ask my exH who buried his homosexuality for 25 years...until it came unburied and exploded our marriage.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

So my take --- they do need to worry about her as she took SUCH a destructive way to sabotage her own life.
If she wanted to stop the engagement, etc., she could have just discussed with John.
Instead, she took one of the most destructive ways to "move on" from this relationship. Has NOTHiNG to do with her being a party girl for a weekend/female sexualtiy or not -- it's the WAY she choose to do this (and yes she CHOSE to do this in this particular fashion).


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> IIRC, she found out nearly a decade ago that she would not be able to have children.


and for some people that just gives them the green flag to do what they want because they know they won’t get knocked up.


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## Nailhead (Sep 21, 2020)

I liken this sad tale to a wife's reply to her H that just said she is the most beautiful woman in the world. The W reply,"You're my H. You are supposed to think that." This woman used the same reply for her LTR who has seen her as beautiful through it all. But he is supposed to because he is going to be her H one day. What he feels about her looks is invalidated as a result. OM advances validate her beauty. Sad really.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> I am 'almost' always serious in my posts.
> 
> In this one....Yessir.
> 
> ...


You say "She acted unwisely.", no she acted with malice, or at least blatant disregard of his emotional and physical well being. That is a lot worse then unwise. She didn't dump John because she didn't want to. She just wanted to screw the other guy have him not find out and see how she felt about it.

It seems you mistake for forgiving with obfuscating the truth. Your right I am not that type. Nothing good comes out of not clearly saying the truth, just because it's less harsh.

Your post shows a lack of empathy and indeed blame for John, who is the victim in this. It's not common on the board, but it's sure is common in society.

I feel bad for what happened to her but not in this case. Everyone has tragedy in their life. Some worse then others. None of it is an excuse to abuse others. Or act terribly disloyal to the one who has shown you the most loyalty.

Nope she did this to herself and caused a huge amount of collateral damage. It should also be noted she hasn't taken the time to correct any of her families misconceptions about John dumping her. I think her choices show who she really is. 

Again shows her character. Now maybe it's from the results of her tragedies, or maybe it's her character. I tend to think it's the latter, character is character and tends to show up sooner or later.

Maybe without she tragedies she would have done it sooner. Now that is pure speculations but everyone else is doing that on this thread, and all to her positive, lets even it up with some negative (since we are all pretty much making it up anyway.)

Bottom line is it's for the best, she is just not mature enough to be married to anyone. And that has nothing to do with John, who is lucky he got out when he did.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

notmyjamie said:


> It's clear she's been through some trauma. A woman finding out she may never be able to have children usually has some emotional upset and trauma from that. Add in her accident and all that entailed and she's ripe for some serious emotional problems. Add in that she just threw away her LTR and it's not such a stretch to say she might need some professional counseling to make sure she is okay.


You may be correct.

But often times the need for counseling comes down to whether the person in question is experiencing distress or angst and are truly wanting to change their behavior or not. 

Yes, she came home and made the tearful confession to the BF and told the story of needing validation and assurance she was still a desirable woman etc.

But for all we know, the moment he was gone her eyes were dry and she was calling her girlfriends and telling them what a hot hunk this other guy was and how many head spinning O’s she had. 

You (and some others) are taking the assumption that her behavior was out of control and maladaptive because it threatened a steady relationship with a caregiving partner. 

It’s certainly possible that that is the case. 

But it’s also possible she was a chick out of town that met some hunk and was in the market for some D. 

There were probably some mutual friends at the wedding that may have had suspicions of them hooking up and so she needed a cover story when she got back. 

My point to all I said above is if one is going to claim a more complex explanation, one is going to need a greater amount of evidence to support that claim. 

A chick partying it up out of town and meeting up with some stud and taking her chances is a much simpler explanation than some complex journey of infertility and trauma and mental issues needing parental notification and professional intervention. 

Nothing being presented thus far indicates this was any kind of involuntary or compulsive out of control behavior requiring professional intervention. 

If anything, what has been presented thus far sounds quite methodical.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> You say "She acted unwisely.", no she acted with malice, or at least blatant disregard of his emotional and physical well being. That is a lot worse then unwise. She didn't dump John because she didn't want to. She just wanted to screw the other guy have him not find out and see how she felt about it.
> 
> It seems you mistake for forgiving with obfuscating the truth. Your right I am not that type. Nothing good comes out of not clearly saying the truth, just because it's less harsh.
> 
> Your post shows a lack of empathy and indeed blame for John, who is the victim in this. It's not common on the board, but it's sure is common in society.


Sorry SKM, I still feel sorry for both of them.
That is empathy.

You missed that, or chose to ignore that.

Did I blame the victim?

Without more facts, I* properly *cannot.
Everything I wrote is conjecture.

I said John needs to separate from Ann, forever.

BTW, I do agree with much that you write.
.................................................................................................

When a person relishes poking a cat, he will eventually get his face scratched.
Did John poke Ann?

No cat I know will scratch your face without provocation.

................................................................................................

The vast majority on TAM agree that cheating is always wrong.
The cheater is always wrong.

*I buy into this.*

But, cheating does not, in itself, _always_ make you the Devil.

You are that harsh and bitter dude that thinks it does.
I accept your take and position, you afford me no quarter.

Um, not even a penny!

Have a nice day!


_Are Dee-_


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Until Andy opens up, and outs every fact about Ann and John that he knows and supposes, we are left, making up stories, even excuses.

Thanks a lot, Andy!!!

Grrrr!


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Only Ann knows what she was thinking and feeling. Only she knows if she is remorseful or even regretful.

Andy is a gentleman and won't be spilling the beans about two people he loves.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I'm sure he isn't a saint but he is tried and true through hardship and proven his love and loyalty.
> 
> Good, solid traits that are sometimes hard to come by.


Yes, that is the narrative....
As presented.

And, if true, your words also ring, true blue.

At this point, we know not,_ "The rest of the Story"_.

Nothing new, we almost always hear only from the original posters (OP's).

In their opening threads, a good few men and women paint themselves as partially to blame.
They are immediately corrected, and talked out of this mindset.

For any closure to occur, Andy needs to hear Ann's side of the relationship and to pass it on to us.
From her, or from someone close to her.

Am I holding my breath?

Hupp, ummmm!
Urrry..



_Are Dee-_


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Only Ann knows what she was thinking and feeling. Only she knows if she is remorseful or even regretful.
> 
> Andy is a gentleman and won't be spilling the beans about two people he loves.


Oooowaw!

I am sticking out my very old and wizened Leprechaun tongue!😜


_Gwendolyn-_


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> Yes, that is the narrative....
> As presented.
> 
> And, if true, your words also ring, true blue.
> ...


I see you have another headmate. It must be getting a little crowded in there.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> I see you have another headmate. It must be getting a little crowded in there.


Huh?

You are not up to date with our Tales.


_Are Dee-_


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> You may be correct.
> 
> But often times the need for counseling comes down to whether the person in question is experiencing distress or angst and are truly wanting to change their behavior or not.
> 
> ...



I agree...I was simply backing up Conan's assertion that she MAY need some help. Maybe she's just a selfish ***** too. I don't know, because I don't know her. Either scenerio is not outside the realm of possibilities.That's all I meant...he was not wrong that the possibility exists that she may need counseling.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> Yes, that is the narrative....
> As presented.
> 
> And, if true, your words also ring, true blue.
> ...


Thats fabrication on your part sir.

😉

We can imagine anything can't we?

I'm working with facts given.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

notmyjamie said:


> I agree...I was simply backing up Conan's assertion that she MAY need some help. Maybe she's just a selfish *** too. I don't know, because I don't know her. Either scenerio is not outside the realm of possibilities.That's all I meant...he was not wrong that the possibility exists that she may need counseling.


I agree, she should seek out help if she needs it. Maybe this was a breakdown.

If this was intentional on her part to force a brake up with him think how cold that is. He is loyal with her through lots of thin, and then instead of saying she wants to move on she cowardly and heartlessly abuses him to get him to leave her. If it were another kind of abuse, it would be like not wanting to break up with your girlfriend so you punch her in the face and hope she goes away. Despicable.

Eventually this world is going to catch up with the fact that infidelity is abuse, plain and simple. 

I can't look at this as a tragedy from her point of view. And from his, he is better off really, in the long run. Though he will suffer now.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

sokillme said:


> I agree, she should seek out help if she needs it. Maybe this was a breakdown.
> 
> If this was intentional on her part to force a brake up with him think how cold that is. He is loyal with her through lots of thin, and then instead of saying she wants to move on she cowardly and heartlessly abuses him to get him to leave her. If it were another kind of abuse, it would be like not wanting to break up with your girlfriend so you punch her in the face and hope she goes away. Despicable.
> 
> ...


Agree he is better off going and finding someone who will appreciate his devotion and loyalty. I feel for him as a part of him must feel like a sucker for standing by her side and supporting her through all that **** just to get dumped on in the end. But he has nothing to be ashamed of, she does.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> Three weeks ago Ann went to a friends wedding on her own. All functions involving large groups are being strictly managed and the wedding was limited to fifty people, so no plus ones. After the wedding there was a disco and then the guests who weren’t staying overnight started to leave but Ann didn’t. John called to her parents house the following morning (Ann lives at home) and she wasn’t there, she arrived in a taxi and when she seen John she just ran up to her bedroom. *John followed her up and she blurted out that she had slept with one of the groomsmen after the wedding.*


Oh fk no, out she goes. Period



> She tried to explain herself by saying that with all her scarring from the different surgeries she needed to feel that she was still an attractive woman and capable of attracting a man.


Hahahahhahahahahhahahahahah 



> She said she wasn’t convinced that John wasn’t staying with her out of obligation or whether he still saw her as a desirable woman and she needed to prove something to herself. She said she felt nothing but disgust during and after the sex but she wanted him to know the truth. She didn’t ask him to forgive her and she handed him her engagement ring which she *hadn’t *worn to the wedding. *John told her they were finished and she had broken his heart.*


Good boy.



> The family is in uproar about him breaking up with Ann and he hasn’t told anyone about her cheating, in fact he has refused to discuss it with anyone except his parents and now with me. The general consensus is that he broke up with her because of worries about future medical issues and her inability to have children because of her injuries.
> He didn’t ask for advice and I didn’t offer any but he asked me for my opinion and I said I’d have to think about it.
> Opinions?


Expose her. Expose everything. Fking s--t has it coming, no reason to take the bullet for the sk--k


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Also, surprisingly disappointed with the responses thus far, why are some people trying to validate Ann? There is simply no reason to cheat, period. There are plenty of honest options available to people who simply aren't ready to commit to a relationship.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> Also, surprisingly disappointed with the responses thus far, why are some people trying to validate Ann? There is simply no reason to cheat, period. There are plenty of honest options available to people who simply aren't ready to commit to a relationship.


Saying she needs counseling doesn't validate what she did...in fact it shows she is screwed up and needs help. There is NO valid reason for cheating so if you do, you must be damaged in some way. At least that's how I see it.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

notmyjamie said:


> Saying she needs counseling doesn't validate what she did...in fact it shows she is screwed up and needs help. There is NO valid reason for cheating so if you do, you must be damaged in some way. At least that's how I see it.


Yeah fair enough but at this point if I was John after I kicked her out of my life my care factor for her would be zilch and wouldn't give two ****s if she got counselling or what not.


----------



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

RandomDude said:


> Yeah fair enough but at this point if I was John after I kicked her out of my life my care factor for her would be zilch and wouldn't give two ****s if she got counselling or what not.


and I wouldn't blame you at all. But Andy is concerned about her as he knows her very well so we were giving a different sort of advice than the usual we give here on TAM.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

notmyjamie said:


> Saying she needs counseling doesn't validate what she did...in fact it shows she is screwed up and needs help. There is NO valid reason for cheating so if you do, you must be damaged in some way. At least that's how I see it.


If she feels she is out of control and doing things that are not in her best interests and she is sincerely concerned with her behavior, then I would agree that professional help would be in order.

And if she is showing a pattern or reckless and irresponsible behavior, then I would agree that her family should perhaps intervene.

But nothing said thus far has indicated anything but a chick out on the town away from her BF and scoring some D when she had an opportunity. 

The reason I brought up the double standard is if the roles roles were reversed and this was a guy, virtually everyone would have chalked it up to him being an A-hole and everyone would have advised her to kick him to the curb and not look back. 

No one would have suggested contacting his parents. No one would have urged him to seek professional help. No one would have given grace for having fertility issues or self esteem issues due to trauma etc. 

When a woman shows sexual behavior that threatens a relationship, people are quick to chalk it up to mental issues and daddy issues and emotional instability etc. they see it as something that needs treatment rather than bad behavior.

Often times the H or BF is subtly encouraged to not make snap judgments and get her help before making any definitive decisions.

But if a guy does it, he’s simply an A-hole and the W or GF is implored to dump him.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> If she feels she is out of control and doing things that are not in her best interests and she is sincerely concerned with her behavior, then I would agree that professional help would be in order.
> 
> And if she is showing a pattern or reckless and irresponsible behavior, then I would agree that her family should perhaps intervene.
> 
> ...


As I said in a previous post...it could be that she has a problem OR it could be that she's just a *****. In my opinion the same holds true of a man who cheats...he has some emotional issues that need sorting out with a professional OR he's a bastard. To me it's the same for both sexes.
. 
Having said that, I'd agree with you that for the most part that is how people look at things. Men sure do get a bad rap...I feel for you guys.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

notmyjamie said:


> and I wouldn't blame you at all. But Andy is concerned about her as he knows her very well so we were giving a different sort of advice than the usual we give here on TAM.


Understood.

I would cut off a friend for that, but I am more vindictive than most I guess. One thing that bothers me is how his cousin is taking the full blame for the breakup, that I cant abide with even if I didnt want to nuke his fiancee's world.

Hell if i was even to consider still having such a woman as a friend I would make her expose her infidelity and start again on a honest footing otherwise why would I have someone so untrustworthy within my circle?


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

He has protected her for years and he continues to try to do so by not exposing her infidelity. He likely cannot believe the reality of the situation.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sunsetmist said:


> He has protected her for years and he continues to try to do so by not exposing her infidelity. He likely cannot believe the reality of the situation.


It’s not uncommon for BS’s to conceal the WS’s infidelity because they are afraid it will make them appear inadequate or somehow less than. 

In this instance he may feel he would appear the fool that he spent so much time and effort on her and in one night out of town she finds some hunk to hook up with. I’m sure he feels a good dose of humiliation and emasculation as well as anger and heartbreak.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> It’s not uncommon for BS’s to conceal the WS’s infidelity because they are afraid it will make them appear inadequate or somehow less than.
> 
> In this instance he may feel he would appear the fool that he spent so much time and effort on her and in one night out of town she finds some hunk to hook up with. I’m sure he feels a good dose of humiliation and emasculation as well as anger and heartbreak.


Yes it is devastating all the more reason he needs to relief himself of the weight of his fiancee's lie so his family can actually help him heal instead of judging him as a man dumping a wounded bird. Humiliation and emasculation are temporary, lies are permanent until revealed.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Quote:



Andy1001 said:


> The general consensus is that he broke up with her because of worries about future medical issues and her inability to have children because of her injuries.


Good heavens the restraint on this man!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It's Ireland. Probably every person within a ten village perimeter knows the details by now.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> It's Ireland. Probably every person within a ten village perimeter knows the details by now.


Probably many people at the wedding and from there it spreads out to everyone, pretty much.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> Probably many people at the wedding and from there it spreads out to everyone, pretty much.


Which is probably one of the reasons she made the quick confession. She probably figured word would get out.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Or she was told "if you don't tell him, I will."

However I recall there was a member of TAM who said that she wanted out of her marriage so she deliberately allowed her husband to catch her in the marital bed because she knew her husband well enough to know that he would not be able to forgive her, so would divorce her.

However she hadn't counted on how devastated her husband would be, which might be the case here.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> Or she was told "if you don't tell him, I will."
> 
> However I recall there was a member of TAM who said that she wanted out of her marriage so she deliberately allowed her husband to catch her in the marital bed because she knew her husband well enough to know that he would not be able to forgive her, so would divorce her.
> 
> However she hadn't counted on how devastated her husband would be, which might be the case here.


Those are all possibilities.

But it’s also possible she may have figured he would quickly forgive her and rugsweep (which he still might).

He has been such a caretaker and stood by her side through so much, she could have easily figured she could hook up with some dude and then cry and let the tears flow and he would feel sorry for her and try that much harder to sooth and validate her. 

Lord knows we’ve plenty of guys like that here before.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Andy1001 said:


> She didn’t ask him to forgive her and she handed him her engagement ring which she *hadn’t *worn to the wedding.
> John told her they were finished and she had broken his heart.


It does sound more like she broke it off with him. I mean, yes, there's the infidelity but _she_ handed him her ring. Unless it's just the way you have written this, Andy, to keep it concise; even though he told her they were finished. Or perhaps mutual declaration was therefore made between them.

I may have missed this - but what sort of opinion was he asking you for? Related to the relationship, himself, or the business, or all of this?

What is your opinion and have you spoken with Ann? What has your wife made of this?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Why has he not destroyed her? Because he still loves her, but cannot deal with what she has done..

However, it's possible that she might have done it in a misguided attempt to give him his freedom from a scarred, physical wreck so he could find a "real, undamaged woman?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

heartsbeating said:


> It does sound more like she broke it off with him. I mean, yes, there's the infidelity but _she_ handed him her ring. Unless it's just the way you have written this, Andy, to keep it concise; even though he told her they were finished. Or perhaps mutual declaration was therefore made between them.
> 
> I may have missed this - but what sort of opinion was he asking you for? Related to the relationship, himself, or the business, or all of this?
> 
> What is your opinion and have you spoken with Ann? What has your wife made of this?


And life goes on.

He was saved from a horrible M. In a screwy way but that's the take away.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Tmi, sorry.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Andy, if the business is worth that much more, can't YOU sell it? I know it will look like a profit on THEIR work, but if you really don't want it, and can't find others to invest, what are your choices? If you feel THAT bad, then give Ann and John a % of any profit you make....


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