# Someone send Thumos over here.



## sokillme

Someone will know who I am talking about. That guy needs a reality check and some good advice, not this wishy-washy **** he is getting.

That is all.


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## RebuildingMe

I’ve been kicked from SI but I wish I could, brother. I believed she resisted, then failed a polly. Nothing worse then seeing someone wallow in indecisiveness. Been there, done that.


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## sokillme

Poor guy. Someone need to introduce him to his wife. His real wife, not what he is still wishing she would be, or more like wishing she was not.


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## RebuildingMe

Smoking the hopium pipe gets some people through. However, it’s a shame when they are to scared to come to the other side. I read a lot of posts still, but almost none on infidelity anymore. It’s like someone released me from my death sentence. A call from the governor. I couldn’t be happier.


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## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Someone will know who I am talking about. That guy needs a reality check and some good advice, not this wishy-washy **** he is getting.
> 
> That is all.


This is Thumos. Yes, the actual one from SI, not a sock puppet. You have no way of knowing that, obviously, other than tells like the way I write. Anyway, let the 2x4’s commence.


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## Affaircare

Hi @Thumos ... welcome to TAM! 

It seems like some folks know you from SI, but I don't, so would you mind giving us a quick summary of your situation? I'll go do research and read up over there, but still...this is your space over here on TAM, so tell us what's going on!


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## Thumos

Oh dear lord, where to begin? I’ll try to provide a summary.

First here’s a long SI thread i’m pretty sure anyone can read: SurvivingInfidelity.com - General Forum

Married for 24 years, dated for three years exclusively (I hope? I think?) before our marriage. So we’ve been together for more than 25 years. I’ve never been unfaithful or strayed in any way. Just her. 

Back in 2016, my wife had a three-month EA and PA with a married friend of ours, a father of another child at our youngest child’s school (my wife at first tried to minimize this as a 6-week affair, but the text and phone call records indicate it was a 3-month affair). 

They had unprotected sex in our home when I was out of town for a business trip. She also insists this was the one and only time and that she never provided him with oral or anything else — don’t they all say this sh*t? 

She refused to let me see the texts between them. There was lots of heavy petting, deep kissing, and secret meet ups in cars, at her work and elsewhere. “Dates” involving our kids. Just last fall, I learned from her that she’d brought OM over to our house for dinner almost “playing house” several times during the affair while I was out of town. 

My wife went on hard mode gaslighting me During the affair, which included her convincing me for a time that I’d falsely accused her and her invoking an in-home separation. I finally gathered enough evidence via VAR. 

I still have to see the POSOM several times a month (sometimes several times in a week) All over the town we live. We still live in the same home. 

Last fall, I laid down ultimatums and got her to go to IC, as well as provide a written timelines and submit to a polygraph. Doing the polygraph and the drama leading up to it was a ****show.

She failed the polygraph. Definitive fail according to the examiner. I didn’t get a parking lot confession.

Since then, I’ve been focused on paying down our debt - also dealt with a heart attack scare in the winter brought on by stress (my heart is fine by the way). Pandemic etc has led to being in a kind of stasis, but I’m looking at my options and thinking quite clearly now. 

That’s where we are.


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## Tatsuhiko

Thumos, I think your wife is full of crap. The real her is the one that degraded you, manipulated you, and gaslighted you. The wife you see now is the one that wants to keep up appearances and is play-acting the part of remorseful wife.

You need to put your own happiness first. There are a million great women out there. Don't sit around hoping things will get better while you waste valuable time finding a real wife.


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## jlg07

SO I haven't yet read your SI posts. BUT, why are YOU paying down both of your debt? I HOPE you are LEGALLY separated, so that anything SHE incurs doesn't become your responsibility.
I am guessing that you will D her (not sure, you didn't say). If that's the case, your commingled debt would be split BETWEEN you, so why are YOU doing all the paying?
I DO hope that you have consulted lawyers to find out what you could expect financially, custody, etc. If not, WHY NOT? I am NOT saying you need to D but I think the more information you have, the better you can create a plan for YOUR and your kids.


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## Thor

Welcome, sorry you are here.

Yes, talk to an atty asap. There are things you could do which torpedo your future, and likewise smart things which protect your future.


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## PassThis

> She refused to let me see the texts between them.
> 
> my wife at first tried to minimize this as a 6-week affair, but the text and phone call records indicate it was a 3-month affair
> 
> she’d brought OM over to our house for dinner almost “playing house” several times during the affair while I was out of town
> 
> My wife went on hard mode gaslighting me
> 
> She failed the polygraph


Those actions (by themselves) are really pretty damn bad, and you have only discovered the tip of the iceberg of infidelity.

Based solely on that information that you have disclosed on this site, your wife has outrageously cheated on you, and has compounded that betrayal exponentially by lying to you (more than) blatantly. She has betrayed you and your children. You do not indicate that she has shown ANY remorse or done anything to indicate that she is even committed to the marriage going forward. What are her "whys"?

A marriage (which she has totally destroyed) has to be based upon a foundation of trust (which she has totally destroyed). I respectfully suggest: 1) get out of limbo, 2) file immediately for divorce, and 3) start a grey rock level 180 process. Your wife seems to be just waiting you out in hopes of your rug-sweeping her bad acts and "just letting it go", and/or she is just waiting for another man to come her way. Has she gone completely NC with her AP? Have you stop funding her by separating your finances? Have you disclosed her infidelity to her and your families, friends, AP's spouse, etc.? How has she indicated that she will fix herself, help you and your family to heal, and become a remorseful FWW for the rest of her life? If she can't convincingly express those thoughts with you, you should help her out of her limbo and on down the road. You are a truly intelligent, thoughtful man (based on your SI posts). Please act accordingly, and do so swiftly, and decisively. I hope that you get out of infidelity soon, and that (if you want her to) your wife recognizes how horribly she has treated you and her children, how she is risking the loss of everything that is valuable in her world, that she has to own what she has done, and then prove that she understands what she has done to those who truly love her. 

Please find your rage, but act on it unemotionally, with coldness and indifference.


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## Thumos

Ok a couple of things:

1. It’s our debt together. I played a nice role in helping to accumulate it. She’s not a big spender and never has been. 

2. I want to pay it off together. I don’t want to walk away with half of this debt. I want to walk away with zero of it. 

3. Two debt-free divorced parents is going to be a helluva lot healthier for everyone, including our kids. 

4. She and I make almost the same level of income. We’re doing well. She actually is probably going to make more than me this year. 

5. If I had divorced her 3.5 years ago, that wouldn’t have been the case, she made quite a bit less, and I’d probably be paying alimony and child support Now. I dont’ regret staying and trying to work on reconciliation. It allowed me calm down and get some things straight and I can say I really tried.

5a. Now we have one kid out of the nest, and only one kid is now a dependent. Now that she makes as much or more than me, alimony is less likely, 50/50 custody split is much more likely, child support isn’t an issue With a 50/50 split where I live, etc. 

6. No I haven’t seen an atty yet - that’s the only thing I haven’t done, really At this point.

7. I’m inclined to think that both the person I’m seeing now and the person who gaslighted me and betrayed me are BOTH the real woman I’m married to. It’s possible to sustain “love bombing” for awhile, but difficult to do for more than 3 years in my view. She hasn’t love bombed — and while everything she did was horrible, along with dragging her feet on transparency and the polygraph et — she’s also done a lot (as she should have done). 

8. I’m not defending her, I just tend to be somewhat objective about this more than I used to (it’s probably one thing that has kept me engaged in the marriage tbh And maybe that’s a deficit on my part). I don’t like being one of those anonymous posters who provides everyone a one-sided view. Maybe it’s my professional background.


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## OddOne

Tbh, I think 36yearsgone aka "The Masochistic Christian" is in more of a need of a reality check than Thumos is. But then, I'm virtually certain 36 is a lost cause. Oh well. Hope his virtuousness continues to sustain him.


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## Thumos

PassThis said:


> Based solely on that information that you have disclosed on this site, your wife has outrageously cheated on you, and has compounded that betrayal exponentially by lying to you (more than) blatantly. She has betrayed you and your children. You do not indicate that she has shown ANY remorse or done anything to indicate that she is even committed to the marriage going forward. What are her "whys"?


It’s a little daunting to have to recreate all the information from my SI thread, so I’ll just let it suffice to say that she has shown what many consider to be remorseful behavior and has done many things over and above what even “remorseful” spouses do. This is over and against her other behaviors and words. The two sets of facts conflict with each other, like a person really at war with themselves. I think a lot of posters at SI find my situation with her confounding bc she doesn't line up with the usual suspects very well. 

We discussed it in detail on SI and most of the posters, both BS and WS, many of whom were leaning toward divorce, had a consensus that many of the things she did consistently lined up with the actions of a remorseful spouse. 

She’s also done and said a lot of ****ty things in the first year after DDay, really gobsmacking statements that would make the neck hairs stand up here, I suspect. That she later retracted. For example, she tried to say I was "sexually immature" because I couldn't understand that it was just "meaningless sex" with her AP. Or she said once that the texts were "private." Just a sample. 

And she’s done a lot to emphasize the clear suspicion she’s not being fully truthful and transparent by burying evidence, dragging her feet on the polygraph, failing the polygraph and more. 

I'm not blind to any of these facts. 

I'll also say that weirdly -- there's a possibility she's telling the truth now, and she insists she is. Which would be truly tragic. Why is this possible, and perhaps even probable? Because while it was a three month affair: 

1. The first 5-6 weeks were much more of a "not just friends" situation with an escalation of phone calls and lengthy convos. 
2. Her schedule is pretty tightly circumscribed. We live and work in the same suburb. There weren't THAT many opportunities for them to get up to no good. 
3. I became suspicious early on and while I didn't "get the goods" until December, she was dealing with a husband who was already freaking out and beside himself all through November. In one of the convos I captured, the AP is worried and very nervous bc he knows I'm suspicious and he can't figure out how I've been able to track down certain information.

So there's a chance she's telling the truth. Of course what I know is awful enough. In truth, in some ways I allowed myself to be cajoled into staying and once a certain amount of time passed, I reached that plain of lethal flatness phase where a BH feels "obligated" in some ways to try to reconcile. 

Now, I don't regret staying for many of the reasons I already outlined. But I also want to be truthful here: I have prayed occasionally for a mulligan, like I catch her up to no good again, so I can just walk with a "clean conscience."


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## Thumos

OddOne said:


> Tbh, I think 36yearsgone aka "The Masochistic Christian" is in more of a need of a reality check than Thumos is. But then, I'm virtually certain 36 is a lost cause. Oh well. Hope his virtuousness continues to sustain him.


I have to agree with this. I feel terrible for him. His wife actually hit him on the head the other day accusing HIM of being unfaithful, and now he may have a detached retina as a result. So physical abuse on top of mental and emotional and psychological abuse. I'm a Christian, too, and frankly I think that plays into far too many "false R" situations. I think unfortunately many evangelical circles have gone over to the "feminist" side of things and are leaving men out in the cold when it comes to dealing with female infidelity.


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## Thumos

*Has she gone completely NC with her AP? *

Yes, I haven't monitored her in about two years - but the danger of reigniting is so low as to be non-existent.

*Have you stop funding her by separating your finances? *

No we're still married, we are not separated and ostensibly working on reconciliation. There would be no reason to do that other than if I had announced I was done reconciling. We went through the multi-week Retrouvaille this spring (which I did find helpful for a variety of reasons).

*Have you disclosed her infidelity to her and your families, friends, AP's spouse, etc.? *

Yes. But not to my family. I felt it was important to not drag my family into it if I decided to R. Would just make it harder. As far as all of our friends? No. Several of my close friends know. None of our "couple friends" know.

*Please find your rage*. 

No problem there. I found it so well I had a false heart attack scare earlier this year. My stepfather was an abusive rageaholic. I am very dubious of giving into rage. I spend a lot of time in the iron temple working it out of my body.


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## Thumos

*You need to put your own happiness first. There are a million great women out there. Don't sit around hoping things will get better while you waste valuable time finding a real wife. *

I do know this. I've been lucky the past couple of years to receive lots of female attention, which certainly alleviates that early feeling of emasculation and not being "Worthy" Maybe it's a "silver fox" thing I've got going. In any case, while I haven't acted on any of it, there are clearly lots of women in their 20s, 30s and 40s who find me attractive, and I likewise find them attractive. I know that the clock is ticking. I'll be 50 this year.


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## lucy999

Thumos said:


> For example, she tried to say I was "sexually immature" because I couldn't understand that it was just "meaningless sex" with her AP. Or she said once that the texts were "private." Just a sample.
> 
> And she’s done a lot to emphasize the clear suspicion she’s not being fully truthful and transparent by burying evidence, dragging her feet on the polygraph, failing the polygraph and more.
> 
> . . . .
> 
> So there's a chance she's telling the truth. feels "obligated" in some ways to try to reconcile.
> 
> . . . .
> 
> But I also want to be truthful here: I have prayed occasionally for a mulligan, like I catch her up to no good again, so I can just walk with a "clean conscience."


Chump Lady would have a field day with the first paragraph I've quoted. Have you checked out her blog? Her mantra is, Leave a Cheater gain a life. I urge you to do some reading there.

Sir, you'd be foolish to believe one syllable that comes out of your wife's mouth. Cheaters lie. I know you listed a myriad of reasons why you think she could be telling the truth now. It'd be an exercise in futility to believe her. She failed the poly. You will never get the full truth. 

Help me understand your desire to walk away with a clean conscience? What did you do? She's the one that cheated. I don't understand.

It's okay to leave. You know this, right?


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## Affaircare

@Thumos, 

Oh boy am I glad you're here! Just to introduce myself (waving hello), my exH cheated on me in my first marriage; I am a former wandering spouse in my second marriage (and I earned the "former")--my second husband passed away in Sept. 2017; and I'm now happily remarried since Memorial Day last year! I am in my late 50's so although we may not be the same age, we're at least close enough to have some understanding of the complexities of children leaving the nest, etc. I am a Christian lady and strive to live my life according to what we're taught in the scriptures. 

So as a former wandering spouse, I'll tell you the first thing that REALLY struck me when I read through your thread on SI was the fact that you mentioned that (quote) "_She read 'How to Help Your Spouse' but labeled it as 'guilt tripping'_ " and that when you try to talk to her about how that book is 'guilt-trippy' (quote) "_...things get very emotional and very slippery. They say something that stupefies you and you kind of sit there and you’re not sure you heard it right but then you try to folo up and the DARVO begins._"

When I had my affair in my second marriage, I did not respond perfectly. My Dear Hubby found out, and he immediately contacted the OM and said, "She is MY WIFE and if you think I'm going to let her go without a fight, you are sadly mistaken." Then he packed my clothes into some luggage, drove me to the train/bus station and essentially said, "Pick. I pray that you'll choose to come home with me, because that's what I hope for, but you are free to go if that is your choice. But know this: if you do choose to go, the door to me will be closed forever. You will never walk back through that door at home." Now, my Dear Hubby was a man who followed up his words with actions--his words and actions MATCHED, so I knew that he meant it! I chose him. And with much effort we did truly recover and renew our marriage. 

He also made me go NC, and at the time my brain knew that was the way to end it and the right thing to do, but in the moment I didn't want to do it. Still, part of recovery and renewing yourself is exactly doing what you KNOW is right regardless of "feelings." I struggled at first, but yeah, after a little while I was as fully committed to NC as he was. I closed all the avenues we had communicated, went NC with all of the "friends" who knew of OM and I as a couple, and basically went with no social media or email or electronics for several months while we rebuilt. And maybe the SECOND thing I did was that I went to every single person, in our family, our kids, our friends, our neighbors...everybody...and told them what I had done, that it was me and my choice, and that it was not Dear Hubby and they shouldn't hold him accountable. There is a very good reason for this: HONESTY. 

The biggest change that has to happen to a person who was formerly unfaithful and they are wanting to become faithful is that they have to begin living entirely differently: HONESTLY. That means that there isn't a mask or image for some people (friends, neighbors, etc.) and a whole different person under the mask at home. That means personal responsibility, as in sure, my Dear Hubby had some traits that hurt me and made an environment in the marriage that was hurful before my adultery, but the adultery is MINE and MINE ALONE. I could have chosen a lot of different ways to get the message across that X or Y were truly hurting our marriage--but it was my choice and my decision to cheat. It was reflective of ME and the condition of MY HEART.

And part of that reflection is that I did have an image for the outside world, and a whole other image for family, and a whole other image for friends, etc. I was not authentic. I was being dishonest to everyone. So a huge part of the healing after infidelity has to do with being HONEST. Well...if she read 'How to Help Your Spouse' and thought it was guilt-trippy, that sounds to me like she hasn't fully accepted responsibility for what she chose to do. Now you may think "Oh but she has. She says X, Y, and Z" but again, look at her actions. 

See, part 1 of recovery after infidelity is learning to live Honestly...and part 2 is rebuilding trust. And you know how you build trust? It's pretty easy--behave in a trustWORTHY way. What's trustWORTHY? When words and actions MATCH. When she says X, Y, and Z but does A, B, and C...her words and actions aren't matching. And to be specific, she says she is remorseful and will do anything...and her actions are Denying what she did, Attacking you, and Reversing Victim and Offender! That is not the action of remorse!

So it sounds to me as if there is GOOD REASON why you don't feel trust and you don't feel recovered. You haven't recovered! Even with all the IC and weekend, those things may be good for you as an individual, but for the marriage to recover and renew a) she just has to start living HONESTLY (which to my mind would include going to the family and humbly, honestly confessing what she did) and b) she has to follow up her "words" with clear and distinct "actions" that match (not "checking boxes off a list of things to do" but rather "when I say I want to help you recover, I will listen to what you say you need and what the book says you need, humble myself that I feel like I'm eating crow but kind of deserve it, and act the same as what I say!").


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## She'sStillGotIt

I haven't been over to that simp pit in a long time, but I'm guessing, as usual, the fools over on SI are doing their damndest to DELUDE yet another of the sheep who were foolish enough to wander into their pasture over there. 

Glad you came here, Thumos. Reading over there gives me a freakin' migraine.

*



She failed the polygraph. Definitive fail according to the examiner. I didn’t get a parking lot confession.

Click to expand...

*Of COURSE she failed it. Cheaters are notorious liars and they have one job when they get caught - and Job #1 is *damage control. *That's accomplished by lying, denying, minimizing, gaslighting, _more_ lying, _more _denying, and a whole lot of empty promises she made about how she'd cut off contact with lover boy and everything else.

I'm guessing, like most cheaters, she also put on a big dog and pony show for you on D-Day, calling lover boy and informing him their affair was over, that she loves you, and she never wants to hear from him again. Of course, the very first second she got away from you, she contacted him and told him what was going on and apologized for that call she was forced to make.

Cheaters are the most PREDICTABLE people on the planet.

So let me guess - the misguided sheep over on SI have probably told you that all you have to do is drag her lying, gaslighting ass to "therapy" and all will be right with the world. They do love their hopium pipe over there.

The bottom line is that this remorseless LYING cheater has been lying through her teeth to you for 4 years running. In essence, you've bellied up to the counter at the S***t Sandwich Cafe for 4 years now. Why on earth WOULD you waste another day on this witch? Because the deluded fools on SI have likely promised you a Unicorn Ending in Lollypop Land if you can just get her to go to IC? They are so out of touch wtih reality over there.

Do yourself a favor. Go see your lawyer tomorrow morning.


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## Thumos

lucy999 said:


> Chump Lady would have a field day with the first paragraph I've quoted. Have you checked out her blog? Her mantra is, Leave a Cheater gain a life. I urge you to do some reading there.
> 
> Sir, you'd be foolish to believe one syllable that comes out of your wife's mouth. Cheaters lie. I know you listed a myriad of reasons why you think she could be telling the truth now. It'd be an exercise in futility to believe her. She failed the poly. You will never get the full truth.
> 
> Help me understand your desire to walk away with a clean conscience? What did you do? She's the one that cheated. I don't understand.
> 
> It's okay to leave. You know this, right?


I read Chump Lady’s blog regularly and have read her book twice.

the clean conscience is more about my kids and the clear empirical evidence for what divorce does to kids long term success and wellbeing


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## Thumos

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I'm guessing, like most cheaters, she also put on a big dog and pony show for you on D-Day, calling lover boy and informing him their affair was over, that she loves you, and she never wants to hear from him again. Of course, the very first second she got away from you, she contacted him and told him what was going on and apologized for that call she was forced to make


well not quite. She sent a text in my presence and blocked his number, the text first said “my husband knows about our emotional affair” and then I made her change that to “my husband knows everything. You are now blocked. Do not contact me again.” Even tho I didn’t know everything and she was still trying to sell an EA only — at least I had the presence of mind to do this. Keep in mind I hadn’t read anything at all on how to handle cheaters other than reading about how to use VARs. Then I made her call her sister and her mom and tell them that very night. In my presence.

of course you’re right and she could have circled back around, and easily unblocked him. she could also have gotten a burner phone. I looked hard but never found one.


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## Thumos

She'sStillGotIt said:


> So let me guess - the misguided sheep over on SI have probably told you that all you have to do is drag her lying, gaslighting ass to "therapy" and all will be right with the world. They do love their hopium pipe over there.


No not quite this either. there’s a lot of debate actually and quite a few people pushing me to drop the hopium pipe - a lot of people seem to think I’ve given it my all and that she’s not being truthful and there’s not much to work with.


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## Thumos

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Because the deluded fools on SI have likely promised you a Unicorn Ending in Lollypop Land if you can just get her to go to IC? They are so out of touch wtih reality over there


 Well yes some of them have. Many of them have said R is a long painful road with no guarantees. Also the couples at Retrouvaille who run it have all been thru hell and back and all seem to love each other. I just always wondered if the husbands in the female infidelity situations were settling. I don’t want to settle. So during Retrouvaille which lasts weeks my doubts were profound.

someone asked what I meant about a “clean conscience” - as a Christian you would understand the weight one feels if you feel you’re having a hard time forgiving. Or if you’re sitting next to your wife praying at retrouvaille but a part of you is just doubting you’ll ever get past it.


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## lucy999

Thumos said:


> I read Chump Lady’s blog regularly and have read her book twice.
> 
> the clean conscience is more about my kids and the clear empirical evidence for what divorce does to kids long term success and wellbeing


Then you know from Chump Lady that it's better to have two happy homes than one unhappy home. ETA: or, one "sane" parent--you.

And your children--one is out of the nest and one is about to be, yes? So we're not talking about young children, right? Surely you're not having them decide for you? To stay?


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## jlg07

Thumos, you know FORGIVING does not mean FORGETTING. You can forgive, but that doesn't mean you have to stay with her.


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## Thumos

lucy999 said:


> Then you know from Chump Lady that it's better to have two happy homes than one unhappy home. ETA: or, one "sane" parent--you.


This is a nice sentiment but it does whistle past the Graveyard of some pretty overwhelming evidence that says otherwise.


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## Thumos

jlg07 said:


> Thumos, you know FORGIVING does not mean FORGETTING. You can forgive, but that doesn't mean you have to stay with her.


I do know that, yes and I’ve had that conversation with myself many times. I’m not confusing forgiving with staying. And I’m not sure I’ve forgiven her anyway. I think I mostly have but if there’s still resentment and anger and doubt that doesn’t seem forgiving.


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## Thumos

lucy999 said:


> your children--one is out of the nest and one is about to be, yes? So we're not talking about young children, right? Surely you're not having them decide for you? To stay?


One is 10 going into 5th grade. The other just graduated from high school and is going into college. apparently research shows 10/11 is the WORST age for parents to divorce for kids. I didn’t know this three years ago obviously.


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## OutofRetirement

Thumos said:


> Well yes some of them have. Many of them have said *R is a long painful road with no guarantees*.


You are four years in. You already know.



Thumos said:


> the *couples at Retrouvaille who run it have all been thru hell and back and all seem to love each other.*


It reminds me of one of those infomercials at 3am telling me how to be a millionaire by buying and selling foreclosed real estate. Buy my special system and you too can be a millionaire!!!! Easy peasy.



Thumos said:


> *sitting next to your wife praying*


While she's sitting there thinking in her head how to keep lying.



Thumos said:


> quite a few people pushing me to *drop the hopium pipe* - a lot of people seem to think I’ve given it my all and that she’s not being truthful and there’s not much to work with.


From my experience, everyone can see this except the one inhaling the hopium. Eventually they figure it out. Or not. Life goes on. It is only your happiness, no one else's. You get to decide. I personally think hopium should be legal in all states. At least for medical purposes.


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## MattMatt

@Thumos Welcome to TAM. We will be here for you, you'll be aware from SI that some people are against any idea of reconciliation, others are in favour of it. Some, like me, think it can be possible in some cases, but not others.


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## Thumos

I think it’s possible to reconcile. I’m becoming increasingly skeptical it can be all that deep or satisfying as some people try to sell it. I think these cases of “stronger, better” bionic marriages must be exceedingly rare. How can something so toxic make anything better? At the same time I think divorce is likely equally as painful, certainly more impoverishing and more than likely bad for children in most cases. So it’s truly the horns of a dilemma for people like me. I think that accounts for POLF more than anything else.


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## faithfulman

Thumos said:


> Ok a couple of things:
> 
> 1. It’s our debt together. I played a nice role in helping to accumulate it. She’s not a big spender and never has been.
> 
> 2. I want to pay it off together. I don’t want to walk away with half of this debt. I want to walk away with zero of it.
> 
> 3. Two debt-free divorced parents is going to be a helluva lot healthier for everyone, including our kids.


@Thumos - how are you? We've posted on many of the same threads, and while we don't agree on everything, and your religious point of view is different from mine, we tend to agree about lying cheaters and what the steps are to deal with them.

And I was worried about you bud, when you disappeared for a while, I'm glad you're okay!

My question to you is: When is Thumos gonna follow Thumos' advice?

Your advice to betrayed spouses, particularly betrayed husbands is very different from your actions as far as I can tell.

And that's okay, saying what is right is much more difficult than doing what is right.

But at a certain point, and I think you reached this conclusion around the polygraph time, you have to know your wife will always protect her selfish interests at your expense.

Just try following Thumos' advice. That guy knows what is up!

***

I always say it's easy for anonymous internet posters to divorce other people's spouses, but in real life, it's much harder.

Having said that, your wife has crossed pretty much every line for which you have advised others to walk away.

I think your list of reasons for staying are pretty much rationalizations to avoid "ripping off the bandaid" , and I get it.

It's scary. IT WILL HURT. But isn't this drawn-out hurt worse?

The reasons/rationalizations I quoted above are pretty flimsy. You can't divorce your still-lying, cheating, screwing another man in your bed wife because you want to pay off debt?

Ask Thumos what advice he would give you about that.

Be well Thumos, welcome to Talk About Marriage brother.

So


----------



## Thumos

faithfulman said:


> Your advice to betrayed spouses, particularly betrayed husbands is very different from your actions as far as I can tell.
> 
> And that's okay, saying what is right is much more difficult than doing what is right


 Very insightful and true - most of the time that hardcore advice is for newly betrayed men. It gets murky years out and I’m trying to spare them that pain.


----------



## Thumos

faithfulman said:


> screwing another man in your bed


for the record she passed this part of the polygraph — Which ironically makes her failure on the other part all the more telling



faithfulman said:


> Ask Thumos what advice he would give you abou


Great advice


----------



## faithfulman

Thumos said:


> for the record she passed this part of the polygraph — Which ironically makes her failure on the other part all the more telling


Maybe she passed that part because she was being technical: We didn't actually do it "in the bed".


----------



## Thumos

faithfulman said:


> Maybe she passed that part because she was being technical: We didn't actually do it "in the bed".


It was carefully worded by the examiner. Anywhere in or near the bedroom etc. I can’t remember the wording but he really covered it well. It doesn’t matter. She had unprotected sex with him in our home.


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## Lostinthought61

Thumbs I am curious, if you were to tell your wife that for you to agree to reconcile that you want to explore leveling the playing field and have an open affair in front of her with some one, how would she take that?....not revenge just a 3 month hall pass


----------



## Thumos

Lostinthought61 said:


> not revenge just a 3 month hall pass


Not well. I actually brought this up once in a cruel way I can do, Obviously not serious. The look on her face was interesting. a few times she’s accused me of revenge cheating which I haven’t done. and she’s gotten jealous of female colleagues as well. And she has gotten jealous about female attention I receive in general. A few weeks ago we were at a bar/restaurant with another couple. I started talking about a Netflix series and the restaurant Mgr overheard me - very attractive early 30s. She started wanting to talk to me, started ordering me drinks she wanted me to try, until it became uncomfortable for even our couple friends, and they started joking about it. I kept trying to involve my WW and the other couple in the convo but the Mgr wasn’t having it and kept asking when we would be back. I don’t encourage and I wasn’t flirting - just sitting there. Anyway. I think she’s pretty well aware I could be dating another woman in about 20 minutes if we split.


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## Lostinthought61

Thumos that is because there can only be one cheater in the family and clearly she took that spot. Frankly that kind of attitude would just put another nail in the coffin of your marriage....if I were you why would you even care if you make her jealous...I say talk to whoever you want she lost any say. 
Never reward bad behavior.


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## oldshirt

Thumos said:


> This is a nice sentiment but it does whistle past the Graveyard of some pretty overwhelming evidence that says otherwise.


No the evidence does NOT say otherwise. 

The evidence says that children are harmed by abuse, neglect, abandonment, alcoholism/drug abuse and living in an environment of chronic hostility and turmoil. 

There is nothing that says that kids are damaged by two loving and supportive parents that happen to live in two separate houses. 

Now will the church or the marriage counselor who makes his/her living trying to keep couples coming back for more sessions be able to cite statistics showing that children of divorced parents have more problems than healthy two-parent homes? Probably. But we have to understand that a lot of those things that do impact children were likely happening in the home around the time of the divorces so yes, their grades probably did reflect the turmoil and disruption at the time. 

Show me the statistics of divorced families a year or two out where both parents are loving and supportive and are involved in their kids lives and things have settled down to where each parent is happier and at peace with their new life going forward. 

So unless you are planning on abusing or abandoning or neglecting your kids or turning into a fallen down drunk in their presence, you are hard pressed to use damage to children as your excuse. 

And if your kids are young adults and upper teens, then you are just using them as your excuse and justification to martyr yourself and that is not fair to them.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Oh dear lord, where to begin? I’ll try to provide a summary.
> 
> First here’s a long SI thread i’m pretty sure anyone can read: SurvivingInfidelity.com - General Forum
> 
> Married for 24 years, dated for three years exclusively (I hope? I think?) before our marriage. So we’ve been together for more than 25 years. I’ve never been unfaithful or strayed in any way. Just her.
> 
> Back in 2016, my wife had a three-month EA and PA with a married friend of ours, a father of another child at our youngest child’s school (my wife at first tried to minimize this as a 6-week affair, but the text and phone call records indicate it was a 3-month affair).
> 
> They had unprotected sex in our home when I was out of town for a business trip. She also insists this was the one and only time and that she never provided him with oral or anything else — don’t they all say this sh*t?
> 
> She refused to let me see the texts between them. There was lots of heavy petting, deep kissing, and secret meet ups in cars, at her work and elsewhere. “Dates” involving our kids. Just last fall, I learned from her that she’d brought OM over to our house for dinner almost “playing house” several times during the affair while I was out of town.
> 
> My wife went on hard mode gaslighting me During the affair, which included her convincing me for a time that I’d falsely accused her and her invoking an in-home separation. I finally gathered enough evidence via VAR.
> 
> I still have to see the POSOM several times a month (sometimes several times in a week) All over the town we live. We still live in the same home.
> 
> Last fall, I laid down ultimatums and got her to go to IC, as well as provide a written timelines and submit to a polygraph. Doing the polygraph and the drama leading up to it was a ****show.
> 
> She failed the polygraph. Definitive fail according to the examiner. I didn’t get a parking lot confession.
> 
> Since then, I’ve been focused on paying down our debt - also dealt with a heart attack scare in the winter brought on by stress (my heart is fine by the way). Pandemic etc has led to being in a kind of stasis, but I’m looking at my options and thinking quite clearly now.
> 
> That’s where we are.



DUDE!!!

So I am the guy who called you here, nice to meet you. Yes I am long winded! Since I got you here I feel I have some right to be. Bare with me. 

Whoever it is who tipped you off thank you, ah but how do we know it's you? I will go with the premise that it is.

OK so this place ain't like SI so be prepared. I would post like this to you on SI but I was banned because tough love is not allowed, which is why you see people posting over and over about how unhappy they are living in dead marriages. I hate to say it but you seem like one of those people. So many people struggling so hard for so little. It's tragic. Stay here a while and you will start to see that. To this sites credit we speak plain harsh truth here without fear of being banned for it.

Understand though I called you because it pains me to see you suffering so. Everything I am about to say is coming from someone who wants to help you stop and live a full rich life. What every good Man or I should say good person deserves. But unlike some people I could give a **** about your marriage, that **** is over. It ended when your wife cheated, you need to come to terms with that. My posts are always about the person posting, the marriage almost always ends up being immaterial. If the person heals or gets their head on straight the marriage usual sorts itself out. Too many people concentrate on the marriage. Marriage is dead, murdered by the cheater.

So I haven't read anything on this post yet, but I have read your excruciating posts on the other site. So much pain, you know where it is coming from and who causes it but you refuse to move away from it. Why?

What are you doing man? Just **** already, get off the F'n pot. You want to be done but you just can't get yourself to pull the trigger. Let's talk about that.

So I have to say it's my observation that guys like you don't get that their wives love them like furniture. (Rough I know but true). You are an affectation to her life. The house, the car, the kids, the loving hard working husband. But you are not a living and breathing person with feelings that she crushed. I mean no offense but some of the reason guys like you seem stuck is because you don't see your wife's, you are stuck seeing them like the girl they dated all those years ago. Thing is she has shown you she is not that girl if she even was. Come on man you know this. Lots of guys like you don't want to have to face the pain of seeing their wives for who they really are.

Let me show you what I mean. Ever notice that she frames all her responses about the affair about how it affected her life. How she doesn't want to be that person, how dare you leave and end the marriage, like she didn't kill it already. How SHE doesn't want to have to talk about it She doesn't want to have too feel pain buy writing a timeline. How you are moving her couch around (sorry I couldn't help it). I'm telling you! SHE stabbed YOU in the back and She doesn't want to have to feel pain??!!

People who truly love other people don't do that when they do something terrible to them. The fight hard to make amends. They face their consequences and try to restore they honor. They love the person so much they want with all their heart to make it right, painful or not. There are some good posters on SI who are trying to do that. Not your wife. They also don't have affairs like she did but I digress. Again you are like a couch. One of the general rules that should be obvious but isn't is that people who have affairs don't love their partners. And people who get cheated on have a hard time accepting that fact. They just don't love you. It sucks but it's true. Doesn't mean someone else won't.

Let's try an experiment. I dare you to ask her how she thinks you feel? What she thinks she did to you emotionally when she cheated? What she thinks you lost? How it changed you. See if she struggles. You would think she has been thinking about it. Ask her how she is trying to fix it. I guarantee you she will get angry with that last one. Again you are moving her couch. I dare you to ask those questions and report back. She is supposedly another one of these so called Christian women too right? Ask her what Jesus would have her do to heal you? I bet that won't go over well. Ask her how she is going to teach your daughter how not to follow in her footsteps? All things that a true penitent person would be really thinking about. It's my contention that your wife is really not a nice person and a terrible wife.

Speaking of that is it the Christian thing, because if it is you have Biblical justification to leave. Let me know because I can give you scripture and verse. Remember in the old testament you wouldn't even be able to stay married to your wife, she would have been stoned to death by Gods command. This is what I don't get. In the old testament God wouldn't have allowed you to stay married but somehow Christians think you have to stay married now? When Christ himself specifically gave you an out in scripture, the one that is always quoted about how God hates divorce. Yes God does hate divorce, but he executed those who commit adultery. The mercy now is he no longer requires capital punishment. You are commanded to forgive and you should for your own benefit but forgiving is not staying. Where is your wife's Christianity in all this. Faith without works is dead. Your wife seems to be an unrepentant cheater.

OK next hard thing. (You can stop an get a snack if you need a break) . So I'm sorry I have to write this but it has to be said.

There is no way there was not sex and a lot of it. Adults in lust have sex. That is probably where she failed on the poly. She brought the guy into your home, yet she has shame enough not to have sex? One of my questions to you is this, with someone who frames the whole aftermath around herself and who brings the guy to your home parading him around, why do you suspect this is this women's only affair? She basically committed scorched earth and is still lying to you. Is it wise to believe a word she say? I think you really don't see your wife for who she is.

Lets talk about your kids. You need to stop worrying about the short term, your kids will adapt, they will have their lives and move on that is what is going to happen anyway. That is what you do. They will be less involved with your life, going away to school and getting married. Besides you have to think about what are you teaching them? Are you teaching them not to put up with crap like you tell people in your posts over and over? Heaven forbid they get cheated on would you want them to follow your example? Judging from your posting I say not. Also once they get cheated on, and everybody does (lets hope it before they are married, but then again they may stay with the cheater and eventually marry them following the example you are setting), once that happens they will understand. Your daughter is young. It's OK for her to be sad about he end of the marriage, tell her you respect that and you are sad too but your wife ended the marriage when she had sex with the another man. Tell her that too. Show your daughter courage and self respect. Be the kind of man you would want her to marry. Half the kids alive today live with divorced parents. She will be proud of you later as long as you leave and act with dignity.

When I see people like you who are kind of stuck in this endless circle of misery it's clear to me that part of the misery is the dissonance. They want a time machine to go back to what they thought they had before, but they will never get it if they stay. They want their spouse to be someone who they don't have the ability to be and have no desire to be if they could. They won't get it if they stay. They want to avoid having to face reality. They don't want to believe who they married and that they just plain made a mistake. But they are living reality. This is the dissonance, and the pain. It's like an emotional Chinese finger trap. The only way you can get any of those things is to give up. Give up on the person you are with and find someone else.

The affair causes you pain because you love your wife. But love is a terrible reason to be married if it's the only one. Trust me the only way the pain goes away is when the love dies. Lots of people divorce. Life goes on. Besides everything in this world dies, your marriage would have anyway from old age or sickness. She just killed it before that. There are SO MANY good women out there and so many people go on to live happy lives. This is what YOU want, your posts to others speak this.

Again that is the other thing I don't get. Man you spend all of your time reading about infidelity and telling people to get out of it. Your posts over and over are about leaving. You know this, it's what you believe in your heart. Look I get it, ****s scary. Leaving the girl I proposed to and who cheated on me was the scariest thing I ever did. But it was also my greatest act of courage. Isn't it time to find your. Isn't it time to admit your done? At least move out.

It's a hell of a thing to spend the rest of your life with someone who doesn't love you and who shows you over and over that fact. You deserve better. But that this point you know enough, the only reason why you are in this situation is because of you.

Read this and tell me again how divorce is equally painful.  You should particularly pay attention to River Rat's story. He was stuck like you. Compare that to the people in the reconciliation section of the SI. I know, I know a wonderful place, how orwelian. It's the saddest place on the web. Your current address.


You can do this man!


----------



## sokillme

> I just always wondered if the husbands in the female infidelity situations were settling. I don’t want to settle.


Seriously your wife ****ing had sex in your house and emotionally tortured you dude. She refuses to tell you the truth and you have to see the guy all the time. HOW CAN THAT NOT BE SETTLING? You wonder if you are settling (smacks head). First off everyone who stays with someone who cheats on them is settling. But at least some cheaters try to make it easier. I mean you can't do better? You are better off alone.

Your wife reads exactly like a narcissist and what your wife did and what you are saying she is don't work together. Just some more of the dissonance I am talking about. I bet she cheated on you before. Maybe not sex but emotionally.

I guess if you want to stay for money. Hell I would just divorce and live together to you pay the dept off. At last you can prepare for what's next. I can't imagine staying with someone who treated me the father of her kids so poorly for money.

Again you get what you accept, but you sure as hell are settling.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I have to agree with this. I feel terrible for him. His wife actually hit him on the head the other day accusing HIM of being unfaithful, and now he may have a detached retina as a result. So physical abuse on top of mental and emotional and psychological abuse. I'm a Christian, too, and frankly I think that plays into far too many "false R" situations. I think unfortunately many evangelical circles have gone over to the "feminist" side of things and are leaving men out in the cold when it comes to dealing with female infidelity.


That dude is exactly where he wants to be and where he feels most comfortable. He is manipulating all you posters because part of his MO is he thrives off the attention from the drama. That is his drug. You guys all play into that over there. Again you need to start seeing things for what they are. People who allow themselves to be repeatedly abused don't do it if they don't get something out of it. That is how human nature works. 

Oh and AHGuy reads fake to me. It has too many of the trigger points. Next thing you know his kid won't be his.


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## sokillme

Be real your heart attack scare was not about rage. It was about you not dealing with reality. If anything the rage is really with yourself. You basically say you looked at the guys at Retrouvaille like they were suckers in one of your posts. Dude?

I suspect you like to think of yourself as a man of honor. Staying is going against that fact. It's going against everything you believe in and it may just kill you. Accept who you are and what you truly believe. Come out of the darkness!


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## sokillme

One more thing before I go to bed. Take her phone and check her app usage. I wonder if there might be an app on there used a lot that you don't recognize.


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## She'sStillGotIt

Thumos said:


> *well not quite. She sent a text in my presence and blocked his number, the text first said “my husband knows about our emotional affair”*


Did I say cheaters are NOTHING if not predictable? This one is a damned walking cliche.

*



...and then I made her change that to “my husband knows everything. You are now blocked. Do not contact me again.”

Click to expand...

*You could have made her text the book "War and Peace" and it STILL would have meant nothing. No matter what she texted to him, she was fully planning on aplogizing to him for the nasty texts she sent, and she also needed to fill him in on the boatload of LIES she'd told you so that they would both have the same story should you contact him looking for information. I told you - cheaters are NOTHING if not predicable.

Come on Thumos, it's time to take the blinders off.

_*



...of course you’re right and she could have circled back around, and easily unblocked him. she could also have gotten a burner phone. I looked hard but never found one.

Click to expand...

*_LOL...she *could* have snuck behind your back and contacted him again, and continued her affair? *COULD* have? But just because this paragon of virtue managed to work harder at not being caught a 2nd time and beause you couldn't find anything, that means she likely didn't do it?

Damn. I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. And all the excuses you continually use throughout this thread to justify clinging to this remorseless liar like she's your lifeline are just sad and pitiful at this point.

Jesus, they really dragged you through the *Delusion Pond *over on SI, didn't they? They'll send their flying monkies after you soon enough if they sense your delusion is starting to slip.... 🐵🐵🐵


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## sokillme

Well I hope we don't chase him off. Coming here from SI is like being in Vegas and going from a Donny and Marie show to Don Rickles. Dated joke but makes the point.


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## Thumos

sokillme said:


> One more thing before I go to bed. Take her phone and check her app usage. I wonder if there might be an app on there used a lot that you don't recognize.


Thanks for all the replies. Reading through but may not be able to respond today.

You didn’t chase away. Busy job!


----------



## Thumos

She'sStillGotIt said:


> No matter what she texted to him, she was fully planning on aplogizing to him for the nasty texts she sent, and she also needed to fill him in on the boatload of LIES she'd told you so that they would both have the same story should you contact him looking for information. I told you - cheaters are NOTHING if not predicable.


Actually I know this is pretty much the case because she would later say in the months after D-Day “if you had only let me talk to him” — this was mostly in reference to the issue of our two young children being best friends at the time. I don’t know what she had in mind - as someone on SI said, did she think she could set up a Google calendar so the two boys could have play dates without anyone crossing the streams? One of the worst aspects of the affair was having to tell my young child no repeatedly on play dates with his friend Without much of an explanation.


----------



## lucy999

Thumos said:


> One of the worst aspects of the affair was having to tell my young child no repeatedly on play dates with his friend Without much of an explanation.


That job should've gone to your wife.


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## sokillme

Your wife is a peach. A really wonderful person. Shesh man what possible benefit could that person have to your life.

Like so many cheaters she really has not emotional awareness of what she has done. It's why she could do it and why are are wasting your time with her. You are not going to get the happy ending with her because the problem is more then her actions, it's her nature.

In all the post you have written I don't think I have ever genuinely seen any sign of the horrors of what she has done to another person, her primary person, the person she promised to honor, presumably love, the father of her children. Never once. 

Again everything in her life is built around how it effects her. You are all like actors in the play that is her life. This is a classic Narcissist.


----------



## Thumos

She'sStillGotIt said:


> LOL...she *could* have snuck behind your back and contacted him again, and continued her affair? *COULD* have? But just because this paragon of virtue managed to work harder at not being caught a 2nd time and beause you couldn't find anything, that means she likely didn't do it?


Let’s distinguish between possibilities and probabilities. It is possible my WW is still unfaithful. It’s not probable. That’s not denial, that’s cold-eyed realism.

Do you guys have the impression I don’t know what‘s up here and that I’ve got some kind of illusions? For crying out loud, I’m planning to divorce her. Is that not clear? I had an appt with an atty before the heart scare, put that on hold and changed course bc I decided I wanted to pay off debt. Me. My decision. Because it‘s what I want. Not her decision.

If I had done what the crowd here recommends 3 years ago I’d be in a much worse situation financially and otherwise. Now I have a child leaving the nest, and the ability to establish favorable divorce Terms. I don’t know what’s confusing about this.

As for trying to convince me an affair is ongoing?

Really think it is extremely unlikely that the affair continued. I’m not naive on this front. I do random pop ins on her all the time to “bring her a Coke” etc. I also will occasionally change my plans at the last minute by canceling an out of trip town or rescheduling a meeting in town, “oh I had to reschedule, let’s grab a drink” so there’s no rhyme or reason to my schedule. There’s very little she can anticipate. I don’t share my schedule with her. And there isn’t any rhyme or reason - Because of what I do, it’s pretty haphazard because I telecommute and am home and only 2 miles away from her business. So i might be home, I might be working at the coffee shop across the street from her office, I might be ”in the city” for a meeting, or I might not be. You can never tell.

Her daily schedule, on the other hand, is pretty tightly circumscribed, and she is pretty much locked down in one place all day long. I also have access to this schedule and can cross check it. She can’t just get up and leave. Most of the shuttling of kids and so forth is left to me for that reason. She works with her sister who was devastated and angry with her. Her sister has been an ally of mine and a confidant until recently with the polygraph. If the affair had continued after D-Day, I would have found about it most likely. I cannot imagine my SIL would be consenting to allowing an affair to continue in her own state of mind feeling betrayed by her sister, but again it’s possible.

I’m not trying to make it sound like I’m babysitting her all the time. I’m not. It’s just that things are organically ”baked in” a way that would make it harder for her to do that. The reason she was able to have an affair before in these circumstances is because I was naive and trusting. I never thought my sweet, Christian wife would do such a thing.

I know with a reasonable degree of certainty my SIL would not tolerate the OM coming to the workplace like before when she considered him a friend who was just there as a client. She would also know my WW’s comings and goings.

If it was continuing she’d have to be a master superspy at this point. She is at home with me every evening. There have been a handful of GNO with a group of friends who don’t know about it and wouldn’t approve (and I’ve actually been along for those nights in any case bc she wanted me to go for accountability). There have not been many, if any, opportunities for her to continue. I realize burner phones are extremely hard to locate. I haven’t monitored with a VAR since the affair, but I’ve thought about doing it recently just as a check in.

I‘m willing to concede that she may have circled back around with him in the early days of shock but his OBS also knew at that point and my WW’s mother knew, my SIL knew. The affair was exposed.

The affair went on Before all of that because I’d never seen what infidelity looks like before. We have a tight community. Now I know. Also I was suspicious almost immediately but it just took a little time to get the evidence. I still travel for work (although not since the pandemic) but I’ve also taken care of things on that front while I’m away.

Additionally, my older child was suspicious when it was going on and confided to a friend about it. I don’t fault my older child who was only turning 15 at the time. My older child is not naive for her age now, either, and went through a period of being very angry with her mother. if my WW were doing suspicious things while I was gone from the home, again I would most likely know about it.

Sure, my WW could have learned how to take affairs ‘underground’ but the chance of physical contact is extremely low. I’ve thought about potential blind spots for me. I feel like those have been addressed. There’s no popping out to the corner store at 11 at night like we read in other threads.

So the chances of them having anything more than text/phone contact (on a burner phone, not on her phone which I have access to) are slim, but I suppose it’s possible. The chances of physical contact are even slimmer. So then we’re left with .. what an underground affair continuing for an additional 3 years via text On a burner phone? It seems unlikely.

My MIL has been a strong ally and has continued to support me and has not circled the wagons. She was also suspicious of my WW and has expressed several times how she wished she‘d said something to me or told her daughter to get her head on straight. She didn’t and regrets it. Now, of course, she’s keyed in as well. Again, a tight familial community. If she had seen something, it is unlilkey at this point she would be looking the other way.

She only once “scolded“ Me after taking my WW to the ER last fall, and then immediately apologized and was mortified a few days later when I sat her down over coffee and laid out all the gory details. She obviously has an interest in keeping the family together, but has been nothing but supportive of me and has said whatever I decide I’ll always be welcome in her home. She’s actually a dream MIL and always has been. I actually know this isn’t ******** because of how she treated one of her other son in law’s whose marriage broke up. She was nothing but kind to him and had him over constantly for dinners without the daughter (her step daughter in that case). I’m not trying to make my MIL sound like a saint, but she’s really been an incredible bulwark for me the past several years And that has not changed. I know others have bad experiences with in-laws circling the Wagons around their daughter. I have not.


----------



## Thumos

lucy999 said:


> That job should've gone to your wife.


It did. Sorry if I wasn’t more clear about that.


----------



## Thumos

Also my WW sat down with our oldest child and talked to that child about the affair. She didn’t go into all the details but made it clear it was a physical affair, that she had devastated me and endangered the family and was now going to work on the marriage. The child knows who the OM is and how long it went on.

Look, I Have the feeling when I share that kind of context you guys are under the impression I’m trying to do a “look what she did“ in the plus column of the ledger. I’m not. What I am doing, however, is trying to provide the most complete picture I can with context. I feel like so often these threads on SI, here at TAM (which I have read regularly so it’s not l like I just strolled into Studio 54 for the first time or something), and elsewhere devolve into various camps pushing their own agendas. And in not getting a really complete picture from an anonymous poster like me, so I strive to be “fair” in the sense of a reporter trying to be objective and report the facts.

I’m not pro R or pro D. I’m in limbo trying to decide the best thing to do for my kids and my long term happiness — And when to do it.

And also, yes, this is really Thumos. It’s me.


----------



## Divinely Favored

RebuildingMe said:


> I’ve been kicked from SI but I wish I could, brother. I believed she resisted, then failed a polly. Nothing worse then seeing someone wallow in indecisiveness. Been there, done that.


You too. They kicked me off in 2014 and still cant get on it. One of their WW misconstrued something i said and had a meltdown from triggering from past gang rape. She was spewing some vile stuff. Never got to explain she misunderstood what i said. We both were booted.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> One more thing before I go to bed. Take her phone and check her app usage. I wonder if there might be an app on there used a lot that you don't recognize.


This is a great suggestion. I’ve done this before and came up with nada. I pick up her phone at random times all the time and read through her messages and facebook feed and look at her phone calls. This is on demand whenever I want. 

I also did a thorough search several times for a burner phone in all the usual places. The only place I cant look is her own office. She may have it there. She could also be an agent for Al Qaeda. And how easy is it to set up dummy email accounts, social media accounts and use anonymous texting apps and then delete them and re-install them. The cat and mouse game can get pretty endless. I could chase after all of that stuff forever. I pretty much have stopped doing that earlier last year.


----------



## Thumos

Divinely Favored said:


> You too. They kicked me off in 2014 and still cant get on it. One of their WW misconstrued something i said and had a meltdown from triggering from past gang rape. She was spewing some vile stuff. Never got to explain she misunderstood what i said. We both were booted.


They do a pretty aggressive job of policing BH’s but not WW’s and certainly not BW’s. It’s a double standard.


----------



## lucy999

If you don't mind my asking, generally, how long before you're debt-free?


----------



## Thumos

This was posted on SI today to me in a thread — lest readers here at TAM believe people at SI are wishy washy. Some are. Some Aren’t. People are complicated. 

“Thumos, I have never thought that your wife is a safe candidate for reconciliation. She is still lying to you. You know it, she knows it, and SI knows it, which is why she's so angry to see you here. She thought that your absence meant that she was going to be able to rugsweep everything that happened and move forward with a clean slate. She's afraid of the destructive power of a bunch of strangers on the internet, because she feels you can be swayed by outside opinion, and the only viewpoint she can afford to have swaying you is her own.“


----------



## Thumos

lucy999 said:


> If you don't mind my asking, generally, how long before you're debt-free?


3 months give or take. We won’t be mortgage free but otherwise yes.


----------



## lucy999

Thumos said:


> 3 months give or take. We won’t be mortgage free but otherwise yes.


Wow. That's not long. Good for you. Wish I could say the same.

So will papers be drawn up shortly after that?


----------



## RandomDude

sokillme said:


> OK so this place ain't like SI so be prepared. I would post like this to you on SI but I was banned because tough love is not allowed, which is why you see people posting over and over about how unhappy they are living in dead marriages.


Lol
Hahahahaha


----------



## sokillme

To respond this is really such an awful story. How someone could do that to another human being I will never know.



> Let’s distinguish between possibilities and probabilities. It is possible my WW is still unfaithful. It’s not probable. That’s not denial, that’s cold-eyed realism.
> 
> Do you guys have the impression I don’t know what‘s up here and that I’ve got some kind of illusions? For crying out loud, I’m planning to divorce her. Is that not clear? I had an appt with an atty before the heart scare, put that on hold and changed course bc I decided I wanted to pay off debt. Me. My decision. Because it‘s what I want. Not her decision.


You have an ongoing post on SI - *"Feeling Stuck in Anger/Plain of Lethal Flatness Phase*" That certainly doesn't sound like someone who is divorcing to me. You read like you are very much conflicted.



> If I had done what the crowd here recommends 3 years ago I’d be in a much worse situation financially and otherwise. Now I have a child leaving the nest, and the ability to establish favorable divorce Terms. I don’t know what’s confusing about this.


Might not have had the heart scare though. I mean you act like going to the Hospital for stress related issues is not a very serious thing. What are you doing to your heart and your body while you pay off your debt. I mean it's your life.



> As for trying to convince me an affair is ongoing?
> 
> Really think it is extremely unlikely that the affair continued. I’m not naive on this front. I do random pop ins on her all the time to “bring her a Coke” etc. I also will occasionally change my plans at the last minute by canceling an out of trip town or rescheduling a meeting in town, “oh I had to reschedule, let’s grab a drink” so there’s no rhyme or reason to my schedule. There’s very little she can anticipate. I don’t share my schedule with her. And there isn’t any rhyme or reason - Because of what I do, it’s pretty haphazard because I telecommute and am home and only 2 miles away from her business. So i might be home, I might be working at the coffee shop across the street from her office, I might be ”in the city” for a meeting, or I might not be. You can never tell.
> 
> Her daily schedule, on the other hand, is pretty tightly circumscribed, and she is pretty much locked down in one place all day long. I also have access to this schedule and can cross check it. She can’t just get up and leave. Most of the shuttling of kids and so forth is left to me for that reason. She works with her sister who was devastated and angry with her. Her sister has been an ally of mine and a confidant until recently with the polygraph. If the affair had continued after D-Day, I would have found about it most likely. I cannot imagine my SIL would be consenting to allowing an affair to continue in her own state of mind feeling betrayed by her sister, but again it’s possible.
> 
> I’m not trying to make it sound like I’m babysitting her all the time. I’m not. It’s just that things are organically ”baked in” a way that would make it harder for her to do that. The reason she was able to have an affair before in these circumstances is because I was naive and trusting. I never thought my sweet, Christian wife would do such a thing.
> 
> I know with a reasonable degree of certainty my SIL would not tolerate the OM coming to the workplace like before when she considered him a friend who was just there as a client. She would also know my WW’s comings and goings.
> 
> If it was continuing she’d have to be a master superspy at this point. She is at home with me every evening. There have been a handful of GNO with a group of friends who don’t know about it and wouldn’t approve (and I’ve actually been along for those nights in any case bc she wanted me to go for accountability). There have not been many, if any, opportunities for her to continue. I realize burner phones are extremely hard to locate. I haven’t monitored with a VAR since the affair, but I’ve thought about doing it recently just as a check in.
> 
> I‘m willing to concede that she may have circled back around with him in the early days of shock but his OBS also knew at that point and my WW’s mother knew, my SIL knew. The affair was exposed.
> 
> The affair went on Before all of that because I’d never seen what infidelity looks like before. We have a tight community. Now I know. Also I was suspicious almost immediately but it just took a little time to get the evidence. I still travel for work (although not since the pandemic) but I’ve also taken care of things on that front while I’m away.
> 
> Additionally, my older child was suspicious when it was going on and confided to a friend about it. I don’t fault my older child who was only turning 15 at the time. My older child is not naive for her age now, either, and went through a period of being very angry with her mother. if my WW were doing suspicious things while I was gone from the home, again I would most likely know about it.
> 
> Sure, my WW could have learned how to take affairs ‘underground’ but the chance of physical contact is extremely low. I’ve thought about potential blind spots for me. I feel like those have been addressed. There’s no popping out to the corner store at 11 at night like we read in other threads.
> 
> So the chances of them having anything more than text/phone contact (on a burner phone, not on her phone which I have access to) are slim, but I suppose it’s possible. The chances of physical contact are even slimmer. So then we’re left with .. what an underground affair continuing for an additional 3 years via text On a burner phone? It seems unlikely.
> 
> My MIL has been a strong ally and has continued to support me and has not circled the wagons. She was also suspicious of my WW and has expressed several times how she wished she‘d said something to me or told her daughter to get her head on straight. She didn’t and regrets it. Now, of course, she’s keyed in as well. Again, a tight familial community. If she had seen something, it is unlilkey at this point she would be looking the other way.
> 
> She only once “scolded“ Me after taking my WW to the ER last fall, and then immediately apologized and was mortified a few days later when I sat her down over coffee and laid out all the gory details. She obviously has an interest in keeping the family together, but has been nothing but supportive of me and has said whatever I decide I’ll always be welcome in her home. She’s actually a dream MIL and always has been. I actually know this isn’t ******** because of how she treated one of her other son in law’s whose marriage broke up. She was nothing but kind to him and had him over constantly for dinners without the daughter (her step daughter in that case). I’m not trying to make my MIL sound like a saint, but she’s really been an incredible bulwark for me the past several years And that has not changed. I know others have bad experiences with in-laws circling the Wagons around their daughter. I have not.


First off you would not be the first person to get cheated on and say "there is no way they would do it again" then have it happen again. As I said before from all that you write she seems like just the type. In fact when you divorce I suspect it will be easy for her to move on.

Besides that what IS SO telling in this response is there is really no information about any remorse on her part. It's all a series of checks and balances that you have in place to monitor her activity. Again like all your other posts. I mean was she ever a good wife? Why does she even bother, it seems so clear that she really doesn't love you. Is it all about saving face and keeping financially secure. Does she have any shame? Does she know you are divorcing? Again do you think she has any emotional understanding of what she has done to you and her family?

The other thing is your kids. Not what will divorce do to them but what will staying do. Again I bring up the idea what happens when they are cheated on. Well at least until now you have established a pattern of your wife's abuse with no clear consequences. Will your your kids cheat because she learned this? Will your kids lose faith in the institution of marriage like so many have. Will they have problems trusting since they were given a example of blatant dishonesty by there own mother in their own family life? Will they stay with the cheater? What are you teaching them?

The question really is what is your marriage now, you have one foot out the door, nether one of you seems to really respect the other, at least in your case losing all respect for her makes sense. She should be kissing your feet. Let me tell you if you don't think that makes a difference it does. I am very close with this guy who married a women whose parents had a functional unaffectionate working marriage. Essentially they stayed together for the kids. As he tells it she his wife struggles greatly with intimacy, it was never patterned for her. She thinks marriage is only about hard work and partnership, but there is no touching or sharing or any of the intimacy stuff that makes it worth it. He is very close to divorce as she is basically trying to learn how to do this because it is unintuitive to her. He is very unhappy, and she is lost and knows it. The worst thing is the her Father divorced his wife after the kids left just like you did. Now he is very happy in normal affectionate relationship which could have been a model for her when she was still impressionable. Damage was done though. She never had a normal marriage modeled for her. They are both good people but their marriage probably won't survive.

You will never convince me that staying in a dysfunctional marriage is good for the kids and that includes one that is just emotionally indifferent. Coming from someone whose parents divorced when he was young and who has had a pretty good life. I am closer to my parents then any of my friends. It was hard at times but life is hard. The key was my parents both loved me and took an active interest. It didn't matter who was sleeping in the room next door. At this point you could have been in a healthy marriage with a good person showing your kids what they should strive for. Instead they see a lying wife who pretty much got away with it, and a very hurt father waiting for them to grow up. They probably know you are going to leave which means they also know you are only staying in this situation for them. Yeah that is NOT better. 

I hope you follow through with your plan. Somehow I am doubtful none of your posts on the other site are this emphatic.


----------



## Thumos

lucy999 said:


> will papers be drawn up shortly after that?


That’s my plan. Probably closer to the end of the first semester for my daughter. I’m fairly confident she will moving out of the house at the end of her first semester of college, and will not feel as “tied” and more adult. This would seem to make it somewhat easier, I hope.

There’s also the pandemic to consider. And possible additional lockdowns. If that hasn’t entered into anyone’s equations, I would recommend that it should. Exactly who’s the realist here?

And to others: Hell yes, I’m conflicted. If you’re not conflicted after Nearly 25 years of marriage and what you thought was bldg a life together, something is wrong with you.

Being conflicted and sad about divorce is not the same as not moving forward with it.

yes, you can read my ongoing thread on SI. It’s posted at the top of this thread, too. The link is right there in one of the first posts I made here. Yes, I’m conflicted. No ****.

We discussed divorce after her failed polygraph. Then the heart attack scare happened almost right after. So yes, she knows divorce is on the table. I also referred to this in my last post on that thread. I’m being somewhat circumspect about it bc she does read there and may have read my posts.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> First off you would not be the first person to get cheated on and say "there is no way they would do it again" then have it happen again. As I said before from all that you write she seems like just the type. In fact when you divorce I suspect it will be easy for her to move on.


I understand, but I don’t think I said “there‘s no way she would do it again.” I said it’s possible, but not probable and in fact unlikely.

Yes, she’s an attractive woman, especially for her age approaching 50. She looks easily no older than 40. I have no doubt she’ll move on. I’m no slouch myself. I’m not pedestalizing her and know I am attractive to women, so I’m not feeling insecure.

I do feel terrified about the very clear empirical data that is out there About what divorce does to kids — and speaking of denial, anyone who doesn’t acknowledge THIS is definitely in denial. The data on this is pretty voluminous. I don’t have time to GTS for you, but check around. There has been some recent research about divorce in younger years being less harmful. Also some research but not much indicating that yes, possiblly divorce is not as traumatic if both parents do a good job co-parenting. 

Guess which age is the worst from a research standpoint? 10/11. The age of my youngest. So yeah. Kids tend to blame themselves at that age and take on the guilt.

Thing is, our household is not dysfunctional day to day. I’m living here, so I can say with a high degree of reliability. So it will be a shock to the system, especially for my youngest.

There’s also a lot of evidence about the need for a father (nota bene, not two mommies, just sayin’). Again denying empirical evidence won’t win any points with me on this.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> I mean was she ever a good wife?


I have been asking myself this a lot lately. Good prompt.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I understand, but I don’t think I said “there‘s no way she would do it again.” I said it’s possible, but not probable and in fact unlikely.
> 
> Yes, she’s an attractive woman, especially for her age approaching 50. She looks easily no older than 40. I have no doubt she’ll move on. I’m no slouch myself. I’m not pedestalizing her and know I am attractive to women, so I’m not feeling insecure.
> 
> I do feel terrified about the very clear empirical data that is out there About what divorce does to kids — and speaking of denial, anyone who doesn’t acknowledge Is definitely in denial. There’s also a lot of evidence about the need for a father (nota bene, not two mommies, just sayin’). Again denying empirical evidence won’t win any points with me on this.


Wait if you divorce you are not their Father anymore? When did that rule come into place? Seriously I spent every weekend and once a week with my Dad. I still learned all my work ethic, how to be assertive, how to flirt and charm girls I was interested in from him. You know the important stuff. We also became much closer because of it. Instead of my Mom doing everything he was now cooking me dinner (usually hamburgers) waking me up to go to school. Things that made us much closer. Every weekend was us time, not him working an me with my Mom or my friends. We are so close to this day in a lot of ways I would call him my best friend. Some of my very deepest conversations were with him, even today. Now that he is older we talk about him not being there and how much I appreciate him. Even when I was just out of high school when I first started driving when you would think I would be breaking away. He gave me a key and I would be out late with friends on Friday, let myself in and we would have breakfast (OK maybe lunch for him) the next morning. I had a wonderful father even though he lived 10 mins away. You are never going to convince me I lost anything. Nah I gained. I am closer then most.

I am going to post my last post again because I changed and added a lot and the thing about modeling the marriage is important.

The other thing is your kids. Not what will divorce do to them but what will staying do. Again I bring up the idea what happens when they are cheated on. Well at least until now you have established a pattern of your wife's abuse with no clear consequences. Will your your kids cheat because she learned this? Will your kids lose faith in the institution of marriage like so many have. Will they have problems trusting since they were given a example of blatant dishonesty by there own mother in their own family life? Will they stay with the cheater? What are you teaching them?

The question really is what is your marriage now, you have one foot out the door, nether one of you seems to really respect the other, at least in your case losing all respect for her makes sense. She should be kissing your feet. Let me tell you if you don't think that makes a difference it does. I am very close with this guy who married a women whose parents had a functional unaffectionate working marriage. Essentially they stayed together for the kids. As he tells it she his wife struggles greatly with intimacy, it was never patterned for her. She thinks marriage is only about hard work and partnership, but there is no touching or sharing or any of the intimacy stuff that makes it worth it. He is very close to divorce as she is basically trying to learn how to do this because it is unintuitive to her. He is very unhappy, and she is lost and knows it. The worst thing is the her Father divorced his wife after the kids left just like you did. Now he is very happy in normal affectionate relationship which could have been a model for her when she was still impressionable. Damage was done though. She never had a normal marriage modeled for her. They are both good people but their marriage probably won't survive.

You will never convince me that staying in a dysfunctional marriage is good for the kids and that includes one that is just emotionally indifferent. Coming from someone whose parents divorced when he was young and who has had a pretty good life. I am closer to my parents then any of my friends. It was hard at times but life is hard. The key was my parents both loved me and took an active interest. It didn't matter who was sleeping in the room next door. At this point you could have been in a healthy marriage with a good person showing your kids what they should strive for. Instead they see a lying wife who pretty much got away with it, and a very hurt father waiting for them to grow up. They probably know you are going to leave which means they also know you are only staying in this situation for them. Yeah that is NOT better.


----------



## RandomDude

Thumos said:


> I do feel terrified about the very clear empirical data that is out there About what divorce does to kids — and speaking of denial, anyone who doesn’t acknowledge Is definitely in denial. There’s also a lot of evidence about the need for a father (nota bene, not two mommies, just sayin’). Again denying empirical evidence won’t win any points with me on this.


I'm from divorced parents, so is my own child. However I have a very solid coparenting arrangement with my ex.

My now girlfriend's family well, they are still together in a toxic loveless relationship that effects children just as much as divorce does, if not more so.


----------



## Thumos

RandomDude said:


> I'm from divorced parents, so is my own child. However I have a very solid coparenting arrangement with my ex.


That’s great, but I’m talking about the difference between empirical data and anecdotal evidence. The data typically does not lie. It’s a bit like saying “hey I was a kid with no father and I turned out fine” (in fact this is me). But the data suggests I’m an outlier and had a few key episodes in my childhood that probably meant the difference between the school-to-prison pipeline and the productive citizen I am now.


----------



## sokillme

RandomDude said:


> I'm from divorced parents, so is my own child. However I have a very solid coparenting arrangement with my ex.
> 
> My now girlfriend's family well, they are still together in a toxic loveless relationship that effects children just as much as divorce does, if not more so.


Yeah my wife's parents fight all the time generally always tension and dramas. My divorced parent cooperate and now get together on holidays for my sisters, me and the Grand Kids. New wife and all. It's easy to tell who made the right decision.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> That’s great, but I’m talking about the difference between empirical data and anecdotal evidence. The data typically does not lie. It’s a bit like saying “hey I was a kid with no father and I turned out fine” (in fact this is me). But the data suggests I’m an outlier and had a few key episodes in my childhood that probably meant the difference between the school-to-prison pipeline and the productive citizen I am now.


YOU'RE NOT DYING DUDE! You don't have to live in the same house all the time to be a father. Hell what about soldiers and service people whose job keeps them away. Do those kids not have Fathers?


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Wait if you divorce you are not their Father anymore?


No I was using the father example as a point about how empirical data on these topics is reliable and does not lie


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> No I was using the father example as a point about how empirical data on these topics is reliable and does not lie


Like this?


----------



## lucy999

Listen, it kind of feels like I'm haranguing you but I promise I'm not. I'm just really curious about your outlook and plan when your wife's actions and naugahyde remorse have been so egregious. If you want me to stop,just say the word. I don't want you to feel unwelcome here. That's the last thing I want.

Have you thought about what kind of role model you are being to your two girls, staying in a marriage where your spouse cheated? Would you want that for them?


----------



## Affaircare

@Thumos 

#1 -- I think you may have missed my post because you haven't responded to it. Would you mind?

#2 -- I'm going to write to you as if you and MrsT are going to attempt R, because you've stayed for 4 years. I get it--it may have taken you this long to process it all--but after 4 years, I don't honestly suspect you'll D because you are renewing your Christian faith and you are pretty clear you don't want to harm your children. 

Assuming you and MrsT to work on real recovery, it is not your job to be the Monitor Police. I think it is reasonable, as a spouse in a healthy marriage, to periodically notice WHERE your spouse is, WHO they are with, and WHAT they are doing, as well as noting whether the words and actions are matching (Are they where they say they're going to be? Are they doing what they said they'd be doing and not leaving out anything? Are they with who they say they'll be with and not leaving anyone out?). What is not reasonable is for one spouse to consistently not have words and actions match, and have the other spouse constantly needing to "monitor" their spouse in order to "make them" stop doing XYZ. Trying to take the position of Monitor Police is unhealthy, is controlling, and is not going to build trust. 

Instead that should be MrsT's job. Remember, I'm speaking to you from the point of view of a former WS. YOU can not "make" her be faithful, "make" her learn about herself and grow, or "make" her be a good wife! If she is sincere in wanting to "do what it takes" to recover the marriage, there first needs to be acceptance that she is responsible for the damage she caused AND ANY REPAIR THAT SHE NEEDS TO PARTICIPATE IN! That's not guilting her--that is accepting reality! The natural consequence of adultery is losing the marriage (and because of that...losing the family and lifestyle), so the fact that you've not allowed her to experience the natural consequence is a BIG DARN GIFT, and she needs to see it that way. You can't "make" her see it that way, but the way you can tell if you're on the road to recovery or not is by seeing MrsT take the reigns and SHOW YOU that she is monitoring herself. So...she might walk in the room and just randomly hand you her phone. She might sit beside you and say, "Hey let me show you an email or social media--which one do you pick?" She might take a photo when she gets where she said she was going to be (proof)...take a photo with those attending (proof)...set up "Share location" on her phone etc. The idea is that SHE is taking the initiative to be OPEN TO YOU and SHARE ALL OF HERSELF with you, even the things that she fears may make you angry or may cause trouble. 

Does this make sense?

If you see her policing herself, that is evidence that she is changing and that recover is possible. If you do not see her policing her own self, then that means she's trying to rugsweep. And this is my concern: rugsweeping is not recovering. Rugsweeping is like sticking your head in the sand...all the issues and wounds and destruction are still there, but they are just unaddressed. 

Recovery = willing to be uncomfortable but one-by-one addressing all the issues within herself that resulted in justifying adultery. 
Rugsweeping = unwilling to do anything outside the comfort zone, unwilling to face the issues within herself, unwilling to take personal responsibility for choosing to be unfaithful.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Like this?


Sorry I’m not following you. You mean “like this” as in the topic of infidelity? The data on infidelity is all over the place and “Dirty” at least in my experience. Really the only good source of info is anecdotal like here at TAM or SI or in threads on Chump Lady. But are those really good sources? The information provided is very self selecting. It’s mostly people who are pissed off and floundering in pain, like me. For example, we almost never hear from those with great reconciliations because they don’t have any reasons to really write.


----------



## Thumos

lucy999 said:


> If you want me to stop,just say the word. I don't want you to feel unwelcome here. That's the last thing I want.


I don’t want anyone to stop. I’m not offended. I may get a little prickly but that doesn’t mean I find it unhelpful


----------



## Thumos

Affaircare said:


> So it sounds to me as if there is GOOD REASON why you don't feel trust and you don't feel recovered. You haven't recovered! Even with all the IC and weekend, those things may be good for you as an individual, but for the marriage to recover and renew a) she just has to start living HONESTLY (which to my mind would include going to the family and humbly, honestly confessing what she did) and b) she has to follow up her "words" with clear and distinct "actions" that match (not "checking boxes off a list of things to do" but rather "when I say I want to help you recover, I will listen to what you say you need and what the book says you need, humble myself that I feel like I'm eating crow but kind of deserve it, and act the same as what I say!").


I hadn’t thought about the aspect of her going to my family before you brought it up. I’ve always left my family out of it bc I thought it would make it harder to reconcile if they knew. 

her family knows.


----------



## Affaircare

By the way, @Thumos -- being debt-free is just wise. It sounds like you are in the process of setting yourself up so that it's just as clean a break as is possible: you go your way, she goes hers, and you both remain equal co-parents.


----------



## Thumos

Affaircare said:


> after 4 years, I don't honestly suspect you'll D because you are renewing your Christian faith and you are pretty clear you don't want to harm your children.


I would not be as sure as you about that. I wrote out a divorce letter to her about a week ago (Haven’t shared that yet obviouslY). I’m looking at our debt and calculating how quickly we can be free of it. My plan is that we’d both each have our own car payments to take care of, but nothing else. We can sell the house easily since we’ve done work on it. And it has a nice big backyard and a pool. So we’d each walk away with a chunk of equity from that. Since she makes as much as me (and possibly more This year) she should get no alimony. 50/50 split on one kid is no child support in my state.

Yes, my faith has been renewed (it suffered the past couple of years). But as someone else here pointed out the New Testament is quite clear on adultery and marriage.

I do think it will harm my children - I do think divorce causes harm. So does staying in a miserable relationship. I’m conflicted, no doubt. But at some point I’m going to have **** or get off the pot. If I cant feel that real reconciliation is possible, then living a half life is not going to cut it for me long-term.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Sorry I’m not following you. You mean “like this” as in the topic of infidelity? The data on infidelity is all over the place and “Dirty” at least in my experience. Really the only good source of info is anecdotal like here at TAM or SI or in threads on Chump Lady. But are those really good sources? The information provided is very self selecting. It’s mostly people who are pissed off and floundering in pain, like me. For example, we almost never hear from those with great reconciliations because they don’t have any reasons to really write.


Did you follow the link?


----------



## Thumos

Affaircare said:


> She might take a photo when she gets where she said she was going to be (proof)...take a photo with those attending (proof)...set up "Share location" on her phone etc.


She does this. We also have Life 360 and she is on that as well. She also sends me pictures if she’s going somewhere to confirm. She started doing that early on without my asking. Same with sharing on the phone. The phone is open to me whenever I want it. She also checks in throughout the day via text and always lets me know if she‘s going somewhere, like to leave to pick up a soft drink or something. And I can watch her in real time. This is all reassuring, of course, but as others have pointed out she could be a super spy and conducting an affair still. I doubt it.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Did you follow the link?


Ah interesting. So I just read. Did you note this key paragraph? “Apparently when marital conflict is muted, children are often unprepared when told about the upcoming divorce. They are surprised, perhaps even terrified, by the news. In addition, children from high-discord families may experience the divorce as a welcome relief from their parents' fighting.”

We are on the ”muted” end of the spectrum with a high functioning household. I know that sounds strange, but it’s true. Just this last weekend we had an entire household of nieces and nephews and my siblings and their spouses. None of these people have a clue. Our couple friends will be devastated by the news. 

The divorce will come as a shock to everyone: my younger child, our close friends, my family. They will all be blindsided by it. 

Also, that 15 percent number. Hoo boy. That’s A LOT. I’m surprised Scientific American minimized that so much. That’s big. That’s a lot of kids with fallout.


----------



## lucy999

Thumos said:


> I wrote out a divorce letter to her about a week ago.


Did you give it to her? What was her reaction? Has her demeanor changed since then?


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I would not be as sure as you about that. I wrote out a divorce letter to her about a week ago. I’m looking at our debt and calculating how quickly we can be free of it. My plan is that we’d both each have our own car payments to take care of, but nothing else. We can sell the house easily since we’ve done work on it. And it has a nice big backyard and a pool. So we’d each walk away with a chunk of equity from that. Since she makes as much as me (and possibly more This year) she should get no alimony. 50/50 split on one kid is no child support in my state.
> 
> Yes, my faith has been renewed (it suffered the past couple of years). But as someone else here pointed out the New Testament is quite clear on adultery and marriage.
> 
> I do think it will harm my children - I do think divorce causes harm. So does staying in a miserable relationship. I’m conflicted, no doubt. But at some point I’m going to have **** or get off the pot. If I cant feel that real reconciliation is possible, then living a half life is not going to cut it for me long-term.


Dude you are going to have to trust to God's mercy with your kids. He doesn't want you to stay in a suffering marriage but he doesn't want your kids to suffer as well. If you believe then you believe he has input. I know my Mom prayed long and hard that it wouldn't affect me too much and I don't think it did, at least not in anyway that I think it wouldn't have been worse if they stayed together.

How do you know all of us calling you out on this isn't meant to be. 

What does your wife think about any of this? I mean she caused this? Does she even believe in God? It's amazing how many people can claim to be following Christ and then act the total opposite with no shame.


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## Thumos

Affaircare said:


> being debt-free is just wise. It sounds like you are in the process of setting yourself up so that it's just as clean a break as is possible: you go your way, she goes hers, and you both remain equal co-parents.


That’s the idea. I want to minimize trauma for my youngest as much as possible and ensure that as little changes materially for my youngest and for my oldest (now entering college). If I can manage that, and it’s a smooth amicable parting, and we’re not impoverished and we’re functioning as good parents, that minimizes the damage.


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## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Does she even believe in God? It's amazing how many people can claim to be following Christ and then act the total opposite with no shame.


My WW has had a complicated relationship with God based on being abandoned by her father at a young age. Like as in basically completely abandoned. She has found more faith as an adult, somewhat, although never as “fervent” as me — and she is Now gravitating now toward Catholicism after Retrouvaille. She is thinking of converting. I want that for her.


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## Thumos

lucy999 said:


> Did you give it to her? What was her reaction? Has her demeanor changed since then?


No I didn’t. I wouldn’t share that with her until I’m ready to file. In the letter I request an amicable mediation, 50/50, no alimony. My point was I’d never done that until now. Literally I had never written out “here’s why I want a divorce. I want a divorce. Here’s what I think that should look like.” I’m not just ****ing around here.

But no, I think that would be a stupid thing to do to share now. We’ve discussed divorce several times. I feel if I tip my hand too early, however, then I’m looking down the barrel of her filing on me without the amicable parting and clean break I think we all need.


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## Thumos

Hopefully I’ve responded here adequately. Gotta work now. Be back later tonight to catch up. Keep ‘em coming!


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## Thumos

You all should see the SI thread here where they are also discussing my case. This is wayward spouses answering questions and several have weighed in. It doesn’t look all that much different from what is being said here: SurvivingInfidelity.com - General Forum

I don’t really understand where the SI ”wish-washy” reputation came in. Maybe that was in the past? If anything, people there have been giving a cold hard dose of reality for awhile. There are some people on SI who are “reconciliation” no matter what, but in my experience you seem to get a balanced view there.


----------



## Affaircare

Thumos said:


> Ah interesting. So I just read. Did you note this key paragraph? “Apparently when marital conflict is muted, children are often unprepared when told about the upcoming divorce. They are surprised, perhaps even terrified, by the news. In addition, children from high-discord families may experience the divorce as a welcome relief from their parents' fighting.”
> 
> We are on the ”muted” end of the spectrum with a high functioning household. I know that sounds strange, but it’s true. *Just this last weekend we had an entire household of nieces and nephews and my siblings and their spouses. None of these people have a clue. Our couple friends will be devastated by the news.
> 
> The divorce will come as a shock to everyone: my younger child, our close friends, my family. They will all be blindsided by it.*
> 
> Also, that 15 percent number. Hoo boy. That’s A LOT. I’m surprised Scientific American minimized that so much. That’s big. That’s a lot of kids with fallout.


See the part up above that I bolded? ALL of that is essentially dishonesty. All along, these people (nieces, nephews, siblings, spouses, couple friends, your family) have been living a lie and not knowing it, and this is EXACTLY what I was talking about when I said that part of what would need to happen if you care to R is to learn to live HONESTLY. 

See for the past four years, all those people have been viewing her (and you to some degree) as someone who she is not. And I'm not saying this to demean her or punish, as some WS's will accuse, but rather because it is the truth. Living in the truth means you are living authentically and allowing other to see who you truly are: you're transparent. This way, both of you have been living a lie: wife is faithful...we are the ideal couple...everything is fine. That's all lies! So @Thumos if I were to suggest anything, it would be to begin the process of living HONESTLY. I am not sure what your wife will think--she may not go along with the process because she wants to hide what she did and if possible make you look like the bad guy. But whether you D or R, living honestly is mentally and spiritually healthy. Do not hide who you are. Be afraid, sure, but be HONEST.


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## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Ah interesting. So I just read. Did you note this key paragraph? “Apparently when marital conflict is muted, children are often unprepared when told about the upcoming divorce. They are surprised, perhaps even terrified, by the news. In addition, children from high-discord families may experience the divorce as a welcome relief from their parents' fighting.”
> 
> We are on the ”muted” end of the spectrum with a high functioning household. I know that sounds strange, but it’s true. Just this last weekend we had an entire household of nieces and nephews and my siblings and their spouses. None of these people have a clue. Our couple friends will be devastated by the news.
> 
> The divorce will come as a shock to everyone: my younger child, our close friends, my family. They will all be blindsided by it.
> 
> Also, that 15 percent number. Hoo boy. That’s A LOT. I’m surprised Scientific American minimized that so much. That’s big. That’s a lot of kids with fallout.


OK I have some experience with this too. I found out the day my Dad left. That was NOT good. I would much rather have been given a little heads up. I was also younger then your kids. I think you need to treat them like adults in this fashion though. I have said the divorce was good for me but finding out that way was emphatically not. I think it made me more fearful in my life then I should have been. Feeling unsafe, waiting for the next shoe to drop so to say.

Given my experience I would suggest you get them used to the fact that you are going to divorce. They know intellectually that their Mom cheated so you don't have that challenge.

I think you should understand that it is going to be painful for everyone at first and you may even feel guilty, but I believe the lessen you are teach them will be more important then staying together. I think it is actually a better thing.

Still you will need to acknowledge their pain and mourning and remember kids don't always handle that in the best way. Same with adults.

It's very important that they understand that because their Mom cheated you are unable to stay with her, and all of this is the very grave consequences of HER actions.

I think you should also be honest and tell them how much you are suffering and how you feel she has done very little to help with that because at the end of the day she just isn't truthful. You can no longer continue when you know she hasn't told you the truth. Truth is important in marriage.

But it should be stated, because it is a good learning lesson, that even if she did everything right it may have still ended. Again THAT is a consequence of HER cheating.

If they say you should do otherwise or should forgive I think you can say you are working on forgiving but it's hard to forgive if you don't know what it is you are forgiving, still even if you forgive it doesn't mean you have to stay together.

Just continue to remind them this is the consequence of their Mom's action and her continuing dishonesty. 

That you understand their pain and morning that you are too and have for a while. If you believe your wife has been a good Mother tell them so. 

Let them know that it doesn't change how much you both love them and will always be in their life.

The day you leave. Call your kids more then once. Tell them that you love them and are not going away. You intend to be a big part of their life (This right here would have been the best thing my Dad could have done.) He did DO that in the end but at the time I didn't know that at the time and was unsure.

Finally for everyone else, it's long past the time for you to be a martyr for your insincere wife. You need to SAY that your wife had an affair and you are getting divorced. Their is no shame in that, actually people will respect that. Don't have to say more and you don't have to do it emotionally but if you don't all your friends will probably assume you cheated since you are leaving. 

DO NOT take responsibility or the blame for her sin. That is just wrong. Just like I suggest you tell the kids these are her consequences.


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## Thumos

Affaircare said:


> begin the process of living HONESTLY. I am not sure what your wife will think--she may not go along with the process because she wants to hide what she did and if possible make you look like the bad guy.


And what does this mean in practical terms in your view? Start outing the affair to our couple friends and tell my family? That would seem to be a bad idea before divorce. 

To sokillme’s point, I have no intention of taking the burden of her sin. I will tell everyone I know when the time is right. I won‘t into gory details - Just: “She was unfaithful to me four years ago, we tried to work through it, but at the end of the day she was not transparent with me and It was obvious we didn’t have the basis for real reconciliation -- so I needed to move on.”


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## Thumos

I do like the idea of giving my kids a runway for this. My oldest already knows its a possibility so when the time is right she will be given a heads up. 

My youngest will require a different kind of preparation, but I think what you suggest is very healthy. 

The idea of springing this on them makes me Feel like vomiting when I picture it. 

Everyone else will just have to deal with the shock.


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## Affaircare

@Thumos, 

If you have determined in your heart that you are going to D, then yes. Maybe slowly, one at a time. It doesn't have to be together either, and I most definitely would not do the "well we grew apart..." b.s. You could keep it short and sweet, but one-by-one tell people that your wife had an affair, gaslit you for __ amount of time, failed a polygraph, and now you two are just waiting for a few financial things to line up at which point you will be divorcing her. 

She doesn't have to agree and she doesn't have to "approve" what you tell people either, but I would encourage keeping it very short and factual and non-disparaging. She committed adultery, this is not something you can live with, you tried, and you have made the decision to divorce. The end. 

[NOTE TO SELF: If you go the "we grew apart..." route or "we couldn't get along..." it sends the kids a message that it's okay to quit a relationship the minute they run into trouble. Nah, we don't want that. There's a real reason for this: a difference of morals and values that is so deep that it's irreconcilable.]

Start with whoever you find most comfortable, but bear in mind that it won't be easy to tell anyone. There is never a good time to bear bad news. So just pick one, tell them, be honest, and keep working down the list, and include your children on that list. It will get back to them, and you want them to hear it from you and be able to ask you questions before they "hear it on the grapevine."


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## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I do like the idea of giving my kids a runway for this. My oldest already knows its a possibility so when the time is right she will be given a heads up.


Yes DO THAT. The being shocked was the worst part of the whole thing for me. Had the greatest affect I believe.


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## Thumos

Affaircare said:


> NOTE TO SELF: If you go the "we grew apart..." route or "we couldn't get along..." it sends the kids a message that it's okay to quit a relationship the minute they run into trouble. Nah, we don't want that. There's a real reason for this: a difference of morals and values that is so deep that it's irreconcilable.]


I won’t be doing that. I have to think about what to say to the 10 year old, but it won’t be that. This isn‘t happening tomorrow or anything either. I’ve got some time to think.

My best stab at it is to say something like “mom had a boyfriend outside our marriage back when you were in the 1st grade. It was wrong, she knew it was wrong, and we’ve been trying to work on it since then. Unfortunately a lot of times working on these kinds of things just doesn’t Help. Dad has been hurt by this, and the best thing is for mom and dad to be separate from each other and lead happy lives on our own — and we will be a better mom And dad to you because of that. You didn’t cause any of this, and there’s nothing you can do to fix It. What you need to do is focus on being the Happiest, and healthiest and best kid you can be. Mom and I both love you very much, your mom is a very good mother, and we’re both going to be here for you every step of the way As you grow up.”


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## sokillme

Thumos said:


> You all should see the SI thread here where they are also discussing my case. This is wayward spouses answering questions and several have weighed in. It doesn’t look all that much different from what is being said here: SurvivingInfidelity.com - General Forum
> 
> I don’t really understand where the SI ”wish-washy” reputation came in. Maybe that was in the past? If anything, people there have been giving a cold hard dose of reality for awhile. There are some people on SI who are “reconciliation” no matter what, but in my experience you seem to get a balanced view there.


That post doesn't read like someone ready to divorce. Just saying.

_*hikingout*_ my be the best example of a repentant WS out there besides our Aftercare here on this board. Walloped has been on here lots too I think I called him here just like you. We tried to give him the hard sale but he passed unfortunately. He will get there though.

I think _*MrsWalloped*_ is trying but she she seems very passive in her own actions. Frankly all WS show a low levels of empathy and thoughtfulness when it comes to putting themselves in other peoples shoes. They are entirely to self focused. Even when trying to make it better lots of times it is in a self focused context.

Lots of us read over there. I lot of us came from there when we were banned. Many of us have had our own experiences and I think reading has really helped me come to terms with how this happens and what to be aware of. I feel like I have the tools to be much more aware of the signs, the red flags.

As you probably know there are only like 5 stories, with just some changing parts and antidotes. They all follow the same pattern. There is only really one very rare reconciliation story. I mean I don't think there is any if you ask me. I will never love anyone enough to let them do that to me and even talk to me again let alone be with me.

As far as SI goes, about 90% of the post on the R board need to be answered like this. Why would you ever think this is going to get better. You are married to an asshole. Either accept it or move on. But if you did that people would stop posting, hence when I did that I was immediately banned. I do that here all the time.

What is the ******** about waiting 6 months. Like AHGUY, if he was real which he is not, his wife brought him over to fix her lovers heat. He need 6 months to figure out that he should not be married to that asshole. If she tries to kill him is it 3 months? I mean lets not be stupid. It's demeaning to stay with someone who treats you like that even if they are the most repentant.

Some advice on these sites is actually immoral in my mind. If we go with the premise that adultery is abuse, which most people on SI do. A lot of people consider it like a rape in the sense that you take away your spouses personal and lots of time sexual agency when you have an affair. You put their health in danger. And you know there are post where people were raped and they say the adultery was worse so it's at least not a stretch.

So going with that premise that it is abuse then rampant and extreme abuse always warrants separation, at the very least it's immoral to be impartial about that. Hell some actually cheer for people to stay together. Let me ask you is it morally right for a women to stay with her husband who beats her up and puts her in the hospital. Or her boyfriend who rapes her? Would telling someone to wait 6 months and think about it be morally good advice?

Frankly some marriages are an abomination. They demean the people in the marriage and the institution of marriage itself. It's morally wrong for them to continue. No one of principle should be advising anything else.

Even you. It's SO CLEAR from us on the other side that your life is going to be SO MUCH better when you move on. I suspect this selfishness is a common pattern of your wife in all aspects of your marriage. You just don't have any other experience. You are going to be one of these people who comes back and says I wish I had did this sooner.

Given those opinions does it make more sense that I think SI is wishy washy?

By the way notice the latest twist in *AHGuy *story, now his wife is to busy when she begged for a meeting to ask for forgiveness. It's almost like that thread was written to get a rise out of people and drive traffic. Not that that would ever happen.


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## sokillme

If SI is Mary Tyler Moore, TAM is Rhoda.


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## Thumos

sokillme said:


> There is only really one very rare reconciliation story. I mean I don't think there is any if you ask me.


Yes, I’ve increasingly concluded something close to this but a bit different. I think that somewhere between 10-15 cases of infidelity have marriages where reconciliation feels “whole” and real. The rest, no. That’s why we have a 50 percent divorce rate. Most of those divorces are from infidelity as opposed to addictions or abuse. Right after DDay I was just desperate to hold on, then HB started and I got very confused for a while. I can’t remember when the real anger set in but when It did, I started to see reconciliation as rarity. 

I think about two years ago I started to become increasingly suspicious of the “stronger, better” rhetoric of what Chump Lady refers to as the “reconciliation-industrial complex.” 

About a year ago, I started posting on SI — and here we are.


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## Thumos

I fell for the “wait six months“ thing. Lots of people were telling me that. Don’t make a rash decision. There‘s no Hurry. I don’t know where that comes from. I think if more people got advice right away to end it quickly there would a lot more swift action and probably a lot less infidelity to be honest. It would become a cultural pattern that if you screw around, your marriage ends in a flash. People would know that and it would be more of a deterrent. There’s just far too much sugarcoating and acceptance of it. 

There is definitely a part of me that wishes I had acted swiftly back in December of ‘16 and just ended it. I had nothing informing my decisions at the time of DDay - no SI, nothing. I had read one post about how to set up a VAR and that was it. i was on my own. I did some things Right by exposing, and other things that landed me in limbo. However, like I said before, looking back on it, my financial situation and my situation relative to the divorce would be a lot different than it is likely to be now.


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## Thumos

sokillme said:


> By the way notice the latest twist in *AHGuy *story, now his wife is to busy when she begged for a meeting to ask for forgiveness. It's almost like that thread was written to get a rise out of people and drive traffic. Not that that would ever happen.


I’ve been wondering about the AHGuy thread since you brought it up. I’m always more credulous about infidelity narratives because they are so bizarre in reality. My own circumstance is pretty bizarre, but I’m not making it up. So I’m always willing to cut people a break and say “wow, this sounds like a novel, but I felt that sense of unreality in my own case, too.”


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## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Yes, I’ve increasingly concluded something close to this but a bit different. I think that somewhere between 10-15 cases of infidelity have marriages where reconciliation feels “whole” and real. The rest, no. That’s why we have a 50 percent divorce rate. Most of those divorces are from infidelity as opposed to addictions or abuse.


It's he same thing. Infidelity IS addiction and abuse. 

Now I should say I DO think the drunken one night stand kind of affair that is confessed the next morning is survivable but even in those cases I think the potential of the marriage will always be diminished.

15% may SAY they have a marriage that feels whole, but 14.5% are lying. Hell you are on the mind movie post. First of all you have to have deal the humiliation of being married to the person who did that to you. Even if they change to the point where you know they get it and are proud of them, you still you can't tell me you have a great marriage when trying to do what most would agree should be one of the most important, intimate and fun parts of marriage repeatedly causes you to relive trauma. I mean cut the crap.

NO they don't have a whole marriage They may have a better one when it's compared to what was an even worse marriage before but it's not a great one. Not a marriage that they would have picked going it. I mean maybe the WS might because they have now worked on themselves and there spouse is much more attentive because they are scared they will be cheated on again. Besides lots of these people are broken and are starting to heal, but you can't tell me that most BS don't think I wish I had a time machine, a lot. Most WS are just not that deep and certainly not capable of unselfish love. Even the good ones struggle at it. So I am sure they think it's all fixed and better. Like some spilled milk or something. I mean that's the level of concern they show their spouse when they cheat. Again the spouse is an affectation, not a living breathing human. 



Thumos said:


> Right after DDay I was just desperate to hold on, then HB started and I got very confused for a while. I can’t remember when the real anger set in but when It did, I started to see reconciliation as rarity.
> 
> I think about two years ago I started to become increasingly suspicious of the “stronger, better” rhetoric of what Chump Lady refers to as the “reconciliation-industrial complex.”
> 
> About a year ago, I started posting on SI — and here we are.


So you were not on SI when this first happened? That is where SI is good. Helping people right afterwords, but then they fall of the rails That site does exactly what it's title is, it helps people "survive" infidelity. I think we try to help people escape it. 

SI not all bad though, the WS board is really the best place for a cheater to be if they want to try to fix it. As long as *Hikingout*, *carpenoctem *and a few others continue to post there. carpenoctem is probably the one who really gets it the most of all the WS. He is a member here too but hasn't posted in a while. Chump Lady is a member here too. She is going God's work rescuing lots of people from a miserable life trying to reanimate a very long dead corpse. 

So not being on SI explains a lot of why you are where you are. One common story is the guy like you who is desperate to get his wife back but as time goes on realizes he made a bad deal. For lots of people they just want to go back to the way it was before. For some it takes years to accept that will never happen. Some never do but they don't get the life back either way. In my mind the pain is going to be there either way too. It's like the band aid analogy. You can rip it off and feel all the pain very intensely for a short time or you can spend years feeling the pain in prolonged less intense increments. You are going to have to feel all of it either way though.

Does your wife ever talk about what she did in the context of doing it to you or her kids? Like does she get that she broke up her family when she cheated? What did she say to the divorce letter?

She is not going to like you telling everyone that she cheated. Look out I don't think she is going to be as amenable as you think. Maybe her family will keep her in life but that would be very unusual. Almost always at the end of the day blood is thicker then water.

You better watch yourself.


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## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Infidelity IS addiction and abuse.


Ok, I was making a distinction with substance/alcohol addiction and physical abuse. “The 3 As” - But yes, I agree that infidelity is a form of rape.


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## Thumos

sokillme said:


> So you were not on SI when this first happened? That is where SI is good. Helping people right afterwords, but then they fall of the rails


No I was not. It’s all a blur. I think I read maybe one or two posts there. The only post I really remember reading during her affair was a “standard evidence post” that taught you how to set up a VAR. This was after I’d already hacked her phone account and after I’d already confronted her with phone records (that’s when she managed to convince me for a few weeks that I’d falsely accused her). I think that VAR post might have been here. In any case, I didn’t start posting and asking for advice until last August.


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## Thumos

sokillme said:


> still you can't tell me you have a great marriage when trying to do what most would agree should be one of the most important, intimate and fun parts of marriage repeatedly causes you to relive trauma. I mean cut the crap.


Absolutely right.


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## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Does your wife ever talk about what she did in the context of doing it to you or her kids? Like does she get that she broke up her family when she cheated?


Yes, she does. A variety of responses ranging from “What kind of dumb ***** would do that to her family?” (Saying this about herself) to things like “If I could erase it all I would, and I certainly would never hurt you or our children in that way again. An affair is an extremely selfish, immature, destructive act.”

I haven’t given her that letter. I wrote that for me. It’s a divorce letter announcing that we’re getting a divorce. We’re not gettting a divorce yet, so I wouldn’t give Her the letter now. It’s an important step for me, however. It make it tangible.


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## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Almost always at the end of the day blood is thicker then water.


Her family already knows. Like I said they’ve been supportive -
I’m under no illusions this continues once I announce we’re divorcing. I think my SIL will be angry and blame me for not forgiving. She has a hard distinguishing forgiveness from reconciliation and has always mixed the two. I think my MIL will be hurt, but less angry, but also probably not wanting to talk to me for awhile - or maybe ever.

I do want to say I probably have had a unique experience with a supportive mother in law. When my WW failed the poly she called her mom and told her it said she was lying. My MIL brusquely said “well did you? Are you?” and didn’t talk to her for more than a week after that. So it’s not like my wife has been getting warm fuzzies from her sister and mother throughout this. Both of them feel betrayed by her too.


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## Thumos

sokillme said:


> they say you should do otherwise or should forgive I think you can say you are working on forgiving but it's hard to forgive if you don't know what it is you are forgiving, still even if you forgive it doesn't mean you have to stay together.


I have thought about this and will probably say something like this to my older child: “I hope nothing like this ever happens to you. But if it does happen I want you to know I will support you whether you decide to divorce or stay with someone who betrays you. I just ask that you show me, your father, the same support for my decision to divorce.”


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## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I’ve been wondering about the AHGuy thread since you brought it up. I’m always more credulous about infidelity narratives because they are so bizarre in reality. My own circumstance is pretty bizarre, but I’m not making it up. So I’m always willing to cut people a break and say “wow, this sounds like a novel, but I felt that sense of unreality in my own case, too.”


Assuming your wives responses to all this are what you write it doesn't seem that unrealistic. Seriously your wife sounds like a narcissist.


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## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Yes, she does. A variety of responses ranging from “What kind of dumb *** would do that to her family?” (Saying this about herself) to things like “If I could erase it all I would, and I certainly would never hurt you or our children in that way again. An affair is an extremely selfish, immature, destructive act.”
> 
> I haven’t given her that letter. I wrote that for me. It’s a divorce letter announcing that we’re getting a divorce. We’re not gettting a divorce yet, so I wouldn’t give Her the letter now. It’s an important step for me, however. It make it tangible.


Don't give it to her. Are you going to tell her stuff she doesn't already know? I mean the letter might shake her up but unfortunately I think this is your wife, she is a women who could have an affair in the house you helped pay for, and then tell you how awful it is that YOU are breaking up your family. She just doesn't care about you the way a wife should care about her husband. She doesn't cherish you or her family.

Why are you wasting time giving her a letter like she will even get it. Just tell her you are divorcing her and move on.

Here is the thing man, you are going to meet a good women one day and realize what a waste this all was. She doesn't have the stuff to get it.


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## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Her family already knows. Like I said they’ve been supportive -
> I’m under no illusions this continues once I announce we’re divorcing. I think my SIL will be angry and blame me for not forgiving. She has a hard distinguishing forgiveness from reconciliation and has always mixed the two. I think my MIL will be hurt, but less angry, but also probably not wanting to talk to me for awhile - or maybe ever.
> 
> I do want to say I probably have had a unique experience with a supportive mother in law. When my WW failed the poly she called her mom and told her it said she was lying. My MIL brusquely said “well did you? Are you?” and didn’t talk to her for more than a week after that. So it’s not like my wife has been getting warm fuzzies from her sister and mother throughout this. Both of them feel betrayed by her too.


Well your MIL has done more then most would, she has at lest tacitly acknowledged that her daughter is awful (to put it nicely), but you can't expect more then that. I mean she gave birth to the women. Everyone will move on. You will see them at weddings and things and you will both have a melancholy acknowledgement about what could have been and what was for a while that's about all. Everyone will have moved on. This is how this works, the out for you is not in everyone feeling sad about what happened or your wife feeling miserable. She is just not deep enough to get it. No, the out is in you meeting someone else who is better so you don't care anymore.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I have thought about this and will probably say something like this to my older child: “I hope nothing like this ever happens to you. But if it does happen I want you to know I will support you whether you decide to divorce or stay with someone who betrays you. I just ask that you show me, your father, the same support for my decision to divorce.”


Dude tell your daughter to dump the asshole. I mean COME ON. No one should spend the rest of their life on someone who treated them like dirt. It's just demeaning, raise your daughter to have more self respect like that. Raise her to set the bar high and expect honesty and fidelity at a minimum. She will have a much better life. Life is not dependent on one person whoever they are, it's more dependent on honor. Have honor and self respect and lots and lots of people will follow.

Why would you support your daughter wasting her life on someone who cheated.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Raise her to set the bar high and expect honesty and fidelity at a minimum.


Wow I’m increasingly glad I came here. Thanks for the 2x4! I mean it.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Are you going to tell her stuff she doesn't already know?


Nope, it’s all things she already knows.


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## jlg07

Thumos said:


> Ah interesting. So I just read. Did you note this key paragraph? “Apparently when marital conflict is muted, children are often unprepared when told about the upcoming divorce. They are surprised, perhaps even terrified, by the news. In addition, children from high-discord families may experience the divorce as a welcome relief from their parents' fighting.”
> 
> We are on the ”muted” end of the spectrum with a high functioning household. I know that sounds strange, but it’s true. Just this last weekend we had an entire household of nieces and nephews and my siblings and their spouses. None of these people have a clue. Our couple friends will be devastated by the news.
> 
> The divorce will come as a shock to everyone: my younger child, our close friends, my family. They will all be blindsided by it.
> 
> Also, that 15 percent number. Hoo boy. That’s A LOT. I’m surprised Scientific American minimized that so much. That’s big. That’s a lot of kids with fallout.


So, maybe you should be dropping hints if not outright telling your family that there are problems. You need to talk with your youngest as well and indicate things aren't so great with Mom. Just start laying the ground work now to prevent that shock. Dropping a bomb on them, especially your child after all this time isn't the best idea. One thing -- you need to be clear as to WHY this is happening. Do not protect your wife from the repercussions of her actions.


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## Thumos

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Of COURSE she failed it. Cheaters are notorious liars and they have one job when they get caught - and Job #1 is *damage control. *That's accomplished by lying, denying, minimizing, gaslighting, _more_ lying, _more _denying, and a whole lot of empty promises she made about how she'd cut off contact with lover boy and everything else.


There’s a bit about her failed polygraph that I’ve shared at SI that I thought I’d share here. I’ll outline it briefly. When I revisit this, it makes me cringe about my own weakness just recounting it. I feel like you guys are helping to deprogram me on some things. I felt like SI did and is doing that as well, but the more blunt talk here also helps. Here goes:

1. This started in August of 2019 when I first came to SI to post for the first time. I was feeling desperate and stuck and I poured out my grief and anger In what became a pretty lengthy thread.

2. At that time, I gave my wife a series of ultimatums: do an STD test (symbolic at this stage but whatevs), Start writing a narrative timeline and give it to me, Submit to a polygraph, sign up with an IC who specializes in betrayal trauma. 

3. Over several weeks in late August through mid-September, she began "stepping up" or so I thought. She began by getting the STD test. Then she started writing her timeline, then she signed up for IC and had her first appointment in late September 2019.

4. During this time period she was very clear about agreeing to the polygraph. She went so far as to explicitly say at this time that she wanted me to set the appointment up when I’m ready, as she said she was aware of stories where WW’s and WH’s have tried to manipulate that process.

5. After her first IC appointment, she began steadily backing away from the commitment to do the poly -- at first mentioning that the IC partners no longer did polys themselves. 

6. Over the next several weeks we went on vacation and I had additional work travel, so no poly was scheduled. Then in late October, she began using the fact that our IC's did not do polys anymore themselves as a reason to delegitimize. 

7. I knocked that out from under her by just asking my IC straight up if they had a problem with it. No, he said, and handed me the card of a reputable poly examiner. In late October 2019, I wrote on SI that "She is trying to use our therapists as a way to object, opting for the disclosure process instead. However, I have been clear about a “both/and” approach for the disclosure and poly — and the therapists have no objection to this (they simply don’t use polys themselves)."

8. Then in early November 2019, "things took a strange turn," when my WW had her panic attack at the therapist's office after I'd texted her I was calling the poly examiner to discuss an appointment. 

9. That night after her ER visit, She began using the panic attack as a reason to refuse the polygraph. I told her no one was forcing her to do it, but if she couldn‘t bring herself to do this simple thing for me, then we needed to separate. She said 'you’re going to blow our marriage up over this?!' And then proceeded to DARVO me. Why was I doing this to her? Etc. Also saying that she’s done everything else I’ve asked so why am I drawing a line in the sand here?

10. I agreed to wait for the polygraph until after the disclosure process 2-hour session had been held. Because of the way our IC's conduct this, advance appointments with each of our IC's were necessary to prepare.

10a. Around this time, I saw the AP again for the first time that fall at a school program. I was triggered something awful by it. 

11. Then in mid-December we had the 2-hour disclosure In which she read her timeline to me. As expected, no major new information, but a few interesting details I'd never heard Before. 

12. I then said right before Christmas I was ready to schedule the poly and I got a response: “I'm unsure about that and will have to think about it." My response was no polygraph, no marriage. 

13. She did the poly but it was surrounded by drama in which she tried to criticize the examiner’s credentials, tried to manipulate the questions, begged and wailed and stalled. Finally he got a result and it was definitive that she failed on the question of “sex more than one time.” She passed on the question of “sex in our bedroom” - these were carefully worded by the examiner to cover all the contingencies and wiggle room a wayward might try to get away with. 

So I know beyond a reasonable doubt that she’s lying about the extent of sex during the affair (aren’t they always) and that she manipulated a three month drama after I’d already waited three years asking for a polygraph on and off.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Wow I’m increasingly glad I came here. Thanks for the 2x4! I mean it.


Yep. 

You need to be listening to that advice too my friend. Everyone deserves that, after all what are relationships about if not that. 

By the way notice who showed up on the fake thread? I will give you a hint, he is seen as the all time poster, but lots of people swear he is fake too. I'm telling you something fishy.


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## jlg07

Thumos said:


> I fell for the “wait six months“ thing. Lots of people were telling me that. Don’t make a rash decision. There‘s no Hurry. I don’t know where that comes from. I think if more people got advice right away to end it quickly there would a lot more swift action and probably a lot less infidelity to be honest. It would become a cultural pattern that if you screw around, your marriage ends in a flash. People would know that and it would be more of a deterrent. There’s just far too much sugarcoating and acceptance of it.
> 
> There is definitely a part of me that wishes I had acted swiftly back in December of ‘16 and just ended it. I had nothing informing my decisions at the time of DDay - no SI, nothing. I had read one post about how to set up a VAR and that was it. i was on my own. I did some things Right by exposing, and other things that landed me in limbo. However, like I said before, looking back on it, my financial situation and my situation relative to the divorce would be a lot different than it is likely to be now.


Look. no issues on what you did -- everyone does things at their own pace, and hind-site is 20-20. You seem to have now taken your time to really get your plan together, you know how you will be affected financially, custody, etc. -- this takes a lot of the fear of the unknown away that you probably had back right after D-day. No matter what people say HERE or on SI, this stuff is a life-changing event and should not be taken lightly or with a flippant "just divorce her" attitude. Do what YOU need to do for your own peace of mind, for the life of your children, and then take it from there.


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## sokillme

Let me just ask you, what do you think it is your wife brings to your life now going forward just as a wife, not a mother or a partner, a wife? Not your history, just right now going forward? If you stay what will the quality of your life be? Will it be better if you are out of debt but stuck with facing emotional bankruptcy?

*Thumos, *let me tell you something. You didn't do anything wrong to deserve this. You didn't fail. Her affair is not a reflection of you, it's only a reflection of your poor character. Maybe you weren't a perfect husband but no one is. I am sure she was not a perfect wife and you didn't cheat, hell she cheated now and you still haven't, you fought with all you had to keep the marriage even though she hasn't. Which is much more then she deserves, and other men would give her. Seems to me you were a pretty good husband. That is something to be proud of and that you can take with you to someone else.

Everything and I mean everything in this life ends. That is life. It's OK. The game was rigged. You didn't have a chance. A chance would have been her telling you she was unhappy and allowing you chance to fix it. Honestly I think lots of time the supposed unhappiness is really just boredom and entitlement anyway. You never got that chance. Sometimes in life you play the game to the best of your ability but you lose, that is no reflection on you. She didn't give you a chance. So you lose, but don't hang on after the game is over for days and days. There is another game out there. Pick yourself up dust yourself off and go on!

Dude you seem like an honorable guy. I am sure you would have never conceived that she would do this, because YOU would never do this. All us honorable people feel that way. This is the reaction of all of us when it happens the first time. But at the end of the day it happened. That is life. It is really not deeper then she wanted to do it and she could. It's that ****ty. She will have to live with her own dishonor.

But you can be that honorable person for someone else. There are just as many honorable women out there stunned by being cheated on like we were. You can go out there an find one. You can look at that person and feel the pride you once did. You can be vulnerable again and not feel like you let yourself down afterwords. You can have sex and know that this new women is present and with you because she wants to be. You can spend the rest of your life with plan A. You can have the dream still, but it's not going to be with this wife. This right now is what you will have with the women you are married to.

Thing is, someone else really may be better even if there was no cheating. You know your wife is a proven selfish liar and a cheater, that doesn't happen in a vacuum. Character is character. It reflected in the large decisions and the small ones.

Let it go. Stop worrying about any of this just accept it. She did it because she wanted to and she could. You are never going to understand any more then that anyway and you don't need to. People do ****ty things, you don't need to understand you need to stay the hell away from those people. Accept that then put it in your past and move on. You have your whole life in front of you, stop looking behind. 

You are doing nothing wrong by leaving. Christ says so, everyone who is reasonable says so. It's OK man. You gave it your best shot, she FUBARed it. Find your courage and go in peace.


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## sokillme

Thumos said:


> There’s a bit about her failed polygraph that I’ve shared at SI that I thought I’d share here. I’ll outline it briefly. When I revisit this, it makes me cringe about my own weakness just recounting it. I feel like you guys are helping to deprogram me on some things. I felt like SI did and is doing that as well, but the more blunt talk here also helps. Here goes:
> 
> 1. This started in August of 2019 when I first came to SI to post for the first time. I was feeling desperate and stuck and I poured out my grief and anger In what became a pretty lengthy thread.
> 
> 2. At that time, I gave my wife a series of ultimatums: do an STD test (symbolic at this stage but whatevs), Start writing a narrative timeline and give it to me, Submit to a polygraph, sign up with an IC who specializes in betrayal trauma.
> 
> 3. Over several weeks in late August through mid-September, she began "stepping up" or so I thought. She began by getting the STD test. Then she started writing her timeline, then she signed up for IC and had her first appointment in late September 2019.
> 
> 4. During this time period she was very clear about agreeing to the polygraph. She went so far as to explicitly say at this time that she wanted me to set the appointment up when I’m ready, as she said she was aware of stories where WW’s and WH’s have tried to manipulate that process.
> 
> 5. After her first IC appointment, she began steadily backing away from the commitment to do the poly -- at first mentioning that the IC partners no longer did polys themselves.
> 
> 6. Over the next several weeks we went on vacation and I had additional work travel, so no poly was scheduled. Then in late October, she began using the fact that our IC's did not do polys anymore themselves as a reason to delegitimize.
> 
> 7. I knocked that out from under her by just asking my IC straight up if they had a problem with it. No, he said, and handed me the card of a reputable poly examiner. In late October 2019, I wrote on SI that "She is trying to use our therapists as a way to object, opting for the disclosure process instead. However, I have been clear about a “both/and” approach for the disclosure and poly — and the therapists have no objection to this (they simply don’t use polys themselves)."
> 
> 8. Then in early November 2019, "things took a strange turn," when my WW had her panic attack at the therapist's office after I'd texted her I was calling the poly examiner to discuss an appointment.
> 
> 9. That night after her ER visit, She began using the panic attack as a reason to refuse the polygraph. I told her no one was forcing her to do it, but if she couldn‘t bring herself to do this simple thing for me, then we needed to separate. She said 'you’re going to blow our marriage up over this?!' And then proceeded to DARVO me. Why was I doing this to her? Etc. Also saying that she’s done everything else I’ve asked so why am I drawing a line in the sand here?
> 
> 10. I agreed to wait for the polygraph until after the disclosure process 2-hour session had been held. Because of the way our IC's conduct this, advance appointments with each of our IC's were necessary to prepare.
> 
> 10a. Around this time, I saw the AP again for the first time that fall at a school program. I was triggered something awful by it.
> 
> 11. Then in mid-December we had the 2-hour disclosure In which she read her timeline to me. As expected, no major new information, but a few interesting details I'd never heard Before.
> 
> 12. I then said right before Christmas I was ready to schedule the poly and I got a response: “I'm unsure about that and will have to think about it." My response was no polygraph, no marriage.
> 
> 13. She did the poly but it was surrounded by drama in which she tried to criticize the examiner’s credentials, tried to manipulate the questions, begged and wailed and stalled. Finally he got a result and it was definitive that she failed on the question of “sex more than one time.” She passed on the question of “sex in our bedroom” - these were carefully worded by the examiner to cover all the contingencies and wiggle room a wayward might try to get away with.
> 
> So I know beyond a reasonable doubt that she’s lying about the extent of sex during the affair (aren’t they always) and that she manipulated a three month drama after I’d already waited three years asking for a polygraph on and off.


Occam's razor she is lying. Period. I mean it's not that hard right? If this wasn't someone you had a history with, if you were posting on your own thread like you do on others what would YOU say?

What were your poly questions again?

Did you ask about the past?

Man read my post above. This is all in the past, just move on from her and let this all go. If you do eventually you can stop caring and being consumed by this.


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## Thumos

sokillme said:


> By the way notice who showed up on the fake thread? I will give you a hint, he is seen as the all time poster, but lots of people swear he is fake too. I'm telling you something fishy.


Wow, just saw that. Very interesting. I only know of him bc someone sent me his thread. When I read it, it all seemed awfully pat and not “messy” like real life situation, like someone vicariously trying to relive it the way he hoped he had done it. he almost never posts in my experience - at least in the year I’ve been on there. So you’re right - seems fishy.


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## sokillme

Seems to be a lot of that going on lately. I mean a survey about confessing to cheating? People have too much time on there hands. I just try to give the best advice and even if it's fake maybe someone else will get something from it. 

I mean how do we know you is you?

Did you read my link I posted in the first message I sent you, the HOF? SG is in there. But I agree he might be fake. I don't think it matters. I wonder if we will get an update. Last I heard his ex tried to commit suicide and that brought him back to at least talking to her.


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## Buffer

Hi brother, so the D will go ahead, fair enough. Both parties have to be onboard for R to work. Some betrayals just can’t be over looked. The saying the truth will set you free. Your WW wasn’t truthful. Remorseful but not fully truthful.
one day at a time
buffer


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## bobert

Your wife clearly isn't a candidate for reconciliation, and no, you are not four years into reconciling. You are four years into a bunch of lies, hiding, and the _illusion_ of "doing things right" and being remorseful. So remorseful she won't even tell you what actually happened and fails polygraphs 🙄 All the stuff she's doing right really doesn't mean **** when she's still lying. You should have handed her divorce papers right then and there. Granted, I didn't do a poly so grain of salt I guess. 

One of my kids is 11, he has definitely been more affected by the situation than his two younger siblings. I'd suggest getting yours into therapy, if you haven't already.


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## Thumos

sokillme said:


> What were your poly questions again?


Two questions 

one about sex more than once, one about whether sex happened in or near our bedroom

she failed sex more than once and passed on sex in our bedroom.

did not ask about the past

accuracy goes down with additional question so I wanted to keep it short

it was considered a “definitive fail”


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## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Two questions
> 
> one about sex more than once, one about whether sex happened in or near our bedroom
> 
> she failed sex more than once and passed on sex in our bedroom.
> 
> did not ask about the past
> 
> accuracy goes down with additional question so I wanted to keep it short
> 
> it was considered a “definitive fail”


I know you know they had more sex. You can't post like you do and not know. There is not a doubt in your mind.

My friend all of this is not about what you don't know but what you don't want to accept. Your wife cheated on you in the worst way and has been lying to you for 4 years. That's a monstrous thing and very hard to take. I know it makes you very very sad that she can be this person, but this doesn't have to be the rest of your life.

A person who loves someone doesn't allow them to suffer for years for their own ego's sake. Specifically when they know they did wrong. This is the most painful thing I am going to write to you, but you need to accept it. Your wife doesn't love you. Not in the way a wife should love her Husband and the Father of her children. She may love her life, but you the person she just doesn't love. 

Dude I am telling you that doesn't mean someone else won't. 

Give up man, it's OK. Lose the battle to win the war.


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## pastasauce79

Thumos said:


> I won’t be doing that. I have to think about what to say to the 10 year old, but it won’t be that. This isn‘t happening tomorrow or anything either. I’ve got some time to think.
> 
> My best stab at it is to say something like “mom had a boyfriend outside our marriage back when you were in the 1st grade. It was wrong, she knew it was wrong, and we’ve been trying to work on it since then. Unfortunately a lot of times working on these kinds of things just doesn’t Help. Dad has been hurt by this, and the best thing is for mom and dad to be separate from each other and lead happy lives on our own — and we will be a better mom And dad to you because of that. You didn’t cause any of this, and there’s nothing you can do to fix It. What you need to do is focus on being the Happiest, and healthiest and best kid you can be. Mom and I both love you very much, your mom is a very good mother, and we’re both going to be here for you every step of the way As you grow up.”


I think this is really good. 

I don't know your son, but I have an 11 year old son and he knows a lot of things that have left me speechless sometimes.

Don't underestimate your son's knowledge of what's going on around him. He knows something has been going on at home. He knows what divorce is. If he goes to school with other kids he's around kids who have divorced parents, kids living with grandparents, or kids with parents in the military, even kids living in dysfunctional environments. Don't underestimate your son's knowledge of family dynamics.

I understand kids go through a lot of transition during that age; they are about to finish elementary school and some are about to start middle school. Their bodies start changing and that brings a lot of emotional changes as well. 

I feel this stage is difficult for parents too. For me, I see my baby growing up and becoming an independent little man. He wants to hang out with his friends more often, PDA are not welcomed anymore, lol! He wants to fit in. He wants to solve problems on his own. For me it's hard to let go of the needy kid image. 

I think it's very good the way you want to tell him. Maybe you can take him out for the day to do something just you and him and tell him about the divorce. Kids at that age worry about changes in their environment. They don't want to change schools, they want to keep their friends, etc. I don't know your plans for the future but this is something to consider as well. 

You seem very worried about your son, but if you are an involved dad and always there to support your child, I think he will be ok. I think kids who have problems after a divorce are the ones who didn't have their parents support. My niece and nephew are proof of this. 

Good luck with your plans! I think you're doing a good job by getting all your ducks in a row before getting a divorce.


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## Thumos

Thanks for all the kind words and continuing advice. Please keep it coming. I’ll be out pocket today with work stuff but will check in later. Thanks again.


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## bandit.45

That's a good way to tell your son.


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## sokillme

I personally would want to avoid taking him to somewhere that he cherishes because you don't want to associate that place with a bad memory. I would have something planned tell him first and then let him decide what to do if he wants to go out, or be alone or whatever. I always thought giving something like candy to brake bad news seem contrived and really kind seems like you are minimizing the seriousness of the news. Hey I know you broke your arm and are in a lot of pain but here is a piece of cake to make it feel better. That just shows you don't get how much pain I am in. Better something like - I know you are in a lot of pain, but I am with you and we are going to get this thing fixed.

I would say something like this -

_Son I know how disappointing you must be, and how this may worry you. Believe me I am disappointed too, I loved your mother and wanted nothing more for us to be together, but understand, we can be disappointed together. I love you, and I promise you that even though we can't have the life we both wanted YOU AND I are going to have a great life together. I am NOT leaving you. I will ALWAYS be with you, and I am SURE your mom would say the same thing (if you are.)_

I suspect you might get a lot of questions about why you can just stay and work it out. -

_Son believe me I tried for years, but your Mom refused to do the things I needed her to to help me. At the end of the day it was just too painful. I am not asking you to understand that pain, I hope you never have to. I am asking you to believe me. I have never lied to you before. It's just too painful for me to stay in this situation. It's part of the reason I had that health scare. I am asking you to love me enough to accept that, and even if you are mad about that, please forgive me.

Also I know it feels like it but it doesn't mean you, your sister, I and even your Mom can't have just as happy a life. It will hurt for a while and you may always be sad about this, but unfortunately as you grow you will learn a lot of life is like this. There are many great and wonderful things in store for your life. You are going to be just fine._

My parents saying that to me would have made it much easier I think. I am basically paraphrasing what happened in the aftermath. This is pretty much what I would have say to my 7 year old self if I could speak to him.


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## Affaircare

Hey @Thumos , 

Here's a thread you may find of interest, and I suspect a person here on TAM who could be of assistance:









A fake persona is more than just lying


I encountered this with my ex-wife. I called it her "Susie Creamcheese" persona. To her family, friends, and coworkers she presented herself as this wholesome and "proper"person who would never harm a fly nor betray her husband. She kept that illusion going with me too. It took me years to...




www.talkaboutmarriage.com





Now I'm not saying that your situation is EXACTLY the same, but there are some similarities in your WW showing one face to "the world" (couple friends, your family, even your youngest), and a whole other face privately (to you and to herself). In fact the face she showed you is even different than the face she shows herself aka "who she really is"! 

True and real remorse and recovery starts on a foundation of HONESTY and that includes being transparent enough to let others see you for who you authentically are, rather than continuing facades due to shame or embarrassment. 

Anyway...just a reference for your own personal growth and understanding.


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## oldtruck

Thumos said:


> I won’t be doing that. I have to think about what to say to the 10 year old, but it won’t be that. This isn‘t happening tomorrow or anything either. I’ve got some time to think.
> 
> My best stab at it is to say something like “mom had a boyfriend outside our marriage back when you were in the 1st grade. It was wrong, she knew it was wrong, and we’ve been trying to work on it since then. Unfortunately a lot of times working on these kinds of things just doesn’t Help. Dad has been hurt by this, and the best thing is for mom and dad to be separate from each other and lead happy lives on our own — and we will be a better mom And dad to you because of that. You didn’t cause any of this, and there’s nothing you can do to fix It. What you need to do is focus on being the Happiest, and healthiest and best kid you can be. Mom and I both love you very much, your mom is a very good mother, and we’re both going to be here for you every step of the way As you grow up.”


married people do not have BF/GF and go on dates with them.
well mom had a BF and went on dates with him. The OM's 
name is *____*. What mom did has been know to be called
cheating, having an affair, infidelity.

Plain simple truth.
No details.
No whitewashing, putting a spin on things, 
lying by omission, trickle truthing.


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## OutofRetirement

Thumos said:


> I fell for the “wait six months“ thing. Lots of people were telling me that. Don’t make a rash decision. There‘s no Hurry. I don’t know where that comes from.


Follow the money. Infidelity is rampant. From my experience, most betrayeds are easily deceived and manipulated (missing huge red flags, once caught in a long-term affair "it was only emotional, it was only holding hands, it was only a hug, it was only once, it was only twice, ad infinitum). I personally have no doubt that most people who produce those scam informercials at 3am are cheaters and most people who buy it are betrayeds. It's only money. From the gullible to the fraudster. From the betrayed to the cheater. How does the "wait six months" thing comes from? There is a whole infidelity industrial complex that has arose around "reconciliation." I'm sure you've read enough, you can publish and your back cover. How much money have you invested so far, counseling, seminars, publications, etc.? That's why.

SI was started by a cheater and her husband. That's why they protect the cheaters so much. It was built on cheaters to save marriages. That was the purpose.

SurvivingInfidelity.com Founder On How She Got Caught Cheating


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## Thumos

OutofRetirement said:


> How much money have you invested so far, counseling, seminars, publications, etc.? That's why.


Not that much frankly. Thankfully. The most was on Retrouvaille and I found it helpful for reasons both having to do with infidelity and not.


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## sokillme

Man if you read SI and this site you think there was a pandemic of raging sex addicted wives who are secret prostitutes. It's almost like those stories would get clicks or something. I mean I guess it's possible but like it's every other story now. Damn.


----------



## Thumos

Actually I think there is a pandemic of female infidelity raging across the West, particularly the United States. So you’re seeing just that play out anecdotally on sites like SI. There are lot more “I just found out my wife is having an affair” posts over there than anything else, seems like.

There’s been a rash of stories In the mass media the past couple of years glorifying female-centric polyamory and open marriages as a societal good. And articles pushing the **** fetish, which can’t be nearly as widespread as the articles make it seem.

One of the worst examples of this genre was a sickening New York magazine article entitled “What Open Marriage Taught One Man About Feminism.” The article is this near parody of a soy boy husband sitting at home waiting for his wife to get home from one of her sexual excursions. It’s really something, look it up. But that sort of thing has been everywhere the past few years.

Then books pushing the idea that women “find themselves” and “grow” from the experience of infidelity (Esther Perel, Eat. Pray. Love, The Madwoman in The Volvo) - A couple of these books were birthed as cover Stories at highbrow culture magazines like the Atlantic.

On SI itself, there’s a genuine legitimate poster who has been struggling with what to do with his cheating late 30s wife who tried to push the notion of her feminist wokeness on him as a justification for her infidelity. Really. Of course he didn’t buy it, and not even the real feminists were buying it, but he was mugged by the reality of it and realized himself — as a left-leaning coastal atheist — just how badly this stuff has penetrated into the mass consciousness, and how it had infected his family.

He discovered a rat’s nest of her female friends and siblings who were ALL cheating and all supporting each other. He outed them and exposed the affairs — and it’s epic.

And that’s to say nothing of an increasing trend of dalliances on GNO and “girl trips” to the Caribbean and the like.

It’s rampant.

The old surveys showing incredibly low numbers of WW are not accurate. I‘d say it’s much more likely that female infidelity is at parity with male infidelity, if not a greater problem.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Actually I think there is a pandemic of female infidelity raging across the West, particularly the United States. So you’re seeing just that play out anecdotally on sites like SI. There are lot more “I just found out my wife is having an affair” posts over there than anything else, seems like.
> 
> There’s been a rash of stories In the mass media the past couple of years glorifying female-centric polyamory and open marriages as a societal good. And articles pushing the **** fetish, which can’t be nearly as widespread as the articles make it seem.
> 
> One of the worst examples of this genre was a sickening New York magazine article entitled “What Open Marriage Taught One Man About Feminism.” The article is this near parody of a soy boy husband sitting at home waiting for his wife to get home from one of her sexual excursions. It’s really something, look it up. But that sort of thing has been everywhere the past few years.
> 
> Then books pushing the idea that women “find themselves” and “grow” from the experience of infidelity (Esther Perel, Eat. Pray. Love, The Madwoman in The Volvo) - A couple of these books were birthed as cover Stories at highbrow culture magazines like the Atlantic.
> 
> On SI itself, there’s a genuine legitimate poster who has been struggling with what to do with his cheating late 30s wife who tried to push the notion of her feminist wokeness on him as a justification for her infidelity. Really. Of course he didn’t buy it, and not even the real feminists were buying it, but he was mugged by the reality of it and realized himself — as a left-leaning coastal atheist — just how badly this stuff has penetrated into the mass consciousness, and how it had infected his family.
> 
> He discovered a rat’s nest of her female friends and siblings who were ALL cheating and all supporting each other. He outed them and exposed the affairs — and it’s epic.
> 
> And that’s to say nothing of an increasing trend of dalliances on GNO and “girl trips” to the Caribbean and the like.
> 
> It’s rampant.
> 
> The old surveys showing incredibly low numbers of WW are not accurate. I‘d say it’s much more likely that female infidelity is at parity with male infidelity, if not a greater problem.


I think there are a rash of newspaper and website editors who know how to get clicks. Outrage sells. Oh and I say 90% of opinion writers have some sort of personality disorder such as narcissism. It's like rampant. But if you want outrageous articles hire outrageous people.

Infidelity has always been around. There has always been a justification. Look at the Bible verses I just posted. 3000 years ago it was just the same. Oh and I suspect it's about 45% men and 35% women now a days, maybe higher. That is a hell of a lot of people. Emotional affairs you can reverse the genders. I think there needs to be a lot less stigma on divorce honestly. Divorce is a much kinder option then infidelity.

What is that thread you talked about. I think I remember it, did he divorce the asshole?

I actually find the week indecisive people who stay more shocking. Especially how common it is in men but then again I believe the type of women who cheats in such a cruel way purposely picks that kind of man. It's a symbiotic relationship. He facilitates her lifestyle. It's like the human version of the female insect that mates with the male and then eats him.

The type of guy who would dump her as soon as she cheated wouldn't have put up with her ******** long enough to get married in the first place. Actually that guy spots what kind of women she is right away and uses her to have fun. But he is not crazy enough to marry her. He plays on all her insecurities and addictive needs just like her affair partner does, but he isn't silly enough to try to marry her and make her a wife. This is why these women fall all over for those types of guys, they know they will never get them. It feeds what they believe in themselves, reinforces all their insecurities. They love the power that these men give off. I am often struck why people try to keep holding on the the idea that the marriage is sacred when the spouse obviously didn't think so. I mean the guys who end up treating these cheaters as desposable like their affair partners did end up with their wives falling all over themselves for them. Because the problem is in their nature. It's just the husbands don't understand it. The affair partners do.

Personally I have never met one person who revels in adultery at least not to me, but then I am pretty open about how that is crap. Now I have meet guys who cheat and have been cheated on, but I have never met some who celebrated it. Of course it goes on but sometimes I think that if we were to meet a lot of these people who post these stories in person they would be what my Grandma used to call poor old souls. Not these fabulous dynamic people we tend to see in our heads.

That is not to say assholes like that don't exist I mean it's clear they do just read the adultery site on Reddit. That to me is where those people are most honest. Which is again why you don't stay when you are purposely cheated on ever, particularly if its for an extended period. If you want to get a clear idea what the person who cheated on you's mindset was read that board. That is the closest you will get. It's painful but it's eye opening. This is who they are.

Divorce your wife.

Though I would just add that.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> you want to get a clear idea what the person who cheated on you's mindset was read that board. That is the closest you will get. It's painful but it's eye opening. This is who they are.


I have read it. It’s painful. I mainly have read for tips on their “OPSEC”


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I have read it. It’s painful. I mainly have read for tips on their “OPSEC”


I really fell bad about saying this, but she deleted her text for a reason my friend.


----------



## Personal

Thumos said:


> I have read it. It’s painful. I mainly have read for tips on their “OPSEC”


Decades ago my ex-wife cheated on me, unlike your wife she admitted doing it almost immediately afterwards. In response though, I ended our marital relationship almost immediately.

That said I think it's funny you mention OPSEC. Since it reminded me of a time when I carried that laminated piece of paper shown below, on my person often day-to-day in a former profession.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Kind of late in the game but I verified Thumos via pm on SI.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> I really fell bad about saying this, but she deleted her text for a reason my friend.


Well don’t worry you’re not telling me something I didn’t know 😂 - those with nothing to hide, hide nothing.

she refused to turn the phone over for forensic recovery, then went and got a new phone.

what else is there to say about that?

At one point in the first 6 mos after DDAY she told me the texts between them were private when I brought it up.

the MC we saw at the beginning the first year told her not to share the texts and said I shouldn’t read them. Natch.

she also later DARVO’d me by saying if I’d really wanted the phone I should have been more forceful about it.


----------



## RandomDude

Thumos said:


> Well don’t worry you’re not telling me something I didn’t know 😂 - those with nothing to hide, hide nothing.
> she refused to turn the phone over for forensic recovery, then went and got a new phone.
> what else is there to say about that?
> At one point in the first 6 mos after DDAY she told me the texts between them were private when I brought it up.
> the MC we saw at the beginning the first year told her not to share the texts and said I shouldn’t read them. Natch.
> she also later DARVO’d me by saying if I’d really wanted the phone I should have been more forceful about it.


Exactly, hell if someone messages me I tell my girlfriend to read it and tell me what it says and vice versa. If either of us start snatching it away, neither of us would let it slide.

Sadly it seems this sort of standard with transparency is considered too controlling with most people.


----------



## Thumos

Well.

I just had a wake up call on another thread here. A bit of an epiphany you might say.

So look, SI may be “wishy washy” but I’ve never seen anyone over there defend ****ty wayward thinking or behavior like I’ve seen around here the past few days. If Chump Lady is an active member here I can’t see how she stomachs it because it goes against everything she stands for.

pro tip: ****ty amoral thinking and bad ethics aren’t “diverse” opinions - they are just ****ty amoral thinking and bad ethics.

defending ****ty amoral thinking and bad ethics is what cheaters specialize in. Looking the other way and calling it “diverse” is what chumps do. I may be caught in limbo with my WW but she sure as **** knows where I stand on her choices and behavior. 

I got called out bc I told those pushing for rugsweeping to take their bad ethics somewhere else where it matches up with their bad ethics - like Reddit’s adultery forum.

I got called out for “inappropriate” content bc I pushed back on a poster’s laughable and vile Insidious agenda to advocate for the obviously stupid **** fetish.

in short, while there are obviously some really good people here, This place also seems to be crawling with moral reprobates.

Thanks for the invite and you’ve all helped clarify my thinking a lot in this thread. So I don’t want to appear unappreciative. It’s been helpful.

but overall from what I’ve seen on other threads, this place is kind of a cess pool - I’m out.

It has been bracing but I feel like I need a shower now.

peace and thanks again


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> Well.
> 
> I just had a wake up call on another thread here. A bit of an epiphany you might say.
> 
> So look, SI may be “wishy washy” but I’ve never seen anyone over there defend ****ty wayward thinking or behavior like I’ve seen around here the past few days. If Chump Lady is an active member here I can’t see how she stomachs it because it goes against everything she stands for.
> 
> pro tip: ****ty amoral thinking and bad ethics aren’t “diverse” opinions - they are just ****ty amoral thinking and bad ethics.
> 
> defending **ty amoral thinking and bad ethics is what cheaters specialize in. Looking the other way and calling it “diverse” is what chumps do. I may be caught in limbo with my WW but she sure as ** knows where I stand on her choices and behavior.
> 
> I got called out bc I told those pushing for rugsweeping to take their bad ethics somewhere else where it matches up with their bad ethics - like Reddit’s adultery forum.
> 
> I got called out for “inappropriate” content bc I pushed back on a poster’s laughable and vile Insidious agenda to advocate for the obviously stupid **** fetish.
> 
> in short, while there are obviously some really good people here, This place also seems to be crawling with moral reprobates.
> 
> Thanks for the invite and you’ve all helped clarify my thinking a lot in this thread. So I don’t want to appear unappreciative. It’s been helpful.
> 
> but overall from what I’ve seen on other threads, this place is kind of a cess pool - I’m out.
> 
> It has been bracing but I feel like I need a shower now.
> 
> peace and thanks again


Was that I your thread? I have not read every page. 

If someone was defending as WW on TAM, then I would like to read it. 

Most of the time we get criticized for being too hard on waywards and scaring them off. 

I guess I will have to go back a read what was said... 

I wish you would not leave...


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> Was that I your thread? I have not read every page.


Different thread. 

This thread has been great. Very helpful. Thanks again.


----------



## TAMAT

Thumos,

When and if you talk to your children about the divorce and the affair ask your children if they saw anything they kept secret from you. From experience when I was young I remember other kids talking about fishy things one of their parents did and it was always wispered. 

Your children should not have to harbor guilt for not telling you.

In the euphoria of an affair parents will lose their sense of responsibility. My daugher seemed on the verge of calling out my W one time but backed off.

I suspect this could have something to do with a much much younger girl who had a crush on my W when they went to the same church together. Weirdly my W made some effort to make that girl friends with my D.


----------



## EleGirl

Thumos said:


> Last fall, I laid down ultimatums and got her to go to IC, as well as provide a written timelines and submit to a polygraph. Doing the polygraph and the drama leading up to it was a ****show.
> 
> She failed the polygraph. Definitive fail according to the examiner. I didn’t get a parking lot confession.


If you don't mind sharing, how many questions were in the polygraph test?


----------



## TAMAT

Thumos,

How was your sex life with the WW pre, during , HB, and post-HB?

When you refer to OM with the WW perhaps refer to him as Marys Husband or Little Bobbies Dad.

How does your WW feel about the OM now.

What consequences have befallen the OM, given your circumstances I think I would have told OMW she has one year to divorce the OM.


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> Different thread.
> 
> This thread has been great. Very helpful. Thanks again.


Wow what typos from me. Sorry. 

I am glad I miss understood...


----------



## Thumos

TAMAT said:


> How was your sex life with the WW pre, during , HB, and post-HB?


1. Our sex life was always good and quite active and consistent. We had a few newborn/baby sex droughts, of course, but that's it. During the affair we had sex but I knew something was very wrong. I got a little of the starfish/rigid treatment, although I've always been able to make her O.. After D-Day we commenced HB like bunnies. It was good even though I had times when the mind movies came in. Post HB, we still have good sex but it's not as frequent. She initiates often. I hardly ever initiate. I still have mind movies although not as intense.

2 .That's great advice on the OM. I'm going to stop calling him by his name and start calling him "____'s father"

3. My WW has claimed all along that this was a casual fling and that she had no real emotional connection to him. On the other hand, she also asserted that the emotional feelz/kibbles he gave her were "like no other man, ever." and she said the sex they had one time was "meaningless sex." Those are direct quote.

4. I'm a little confused by your suggestion. Why would his wife comply with a demand from me that she divorce him? He's had no real consequences as far as I can tell. It's pretty clear his wife set up a series of demands for him to meet, including building a new luxury custom home for them. OM used his daddy's money for this on land his daddy owns. So she stuck around for the brand new house and lifestyle.

5. OMW and I have communicated on this a little bit. I did not reach out and tell her right away but only later. Another mistake I made. She didn't want to talk about it much, only to say she was moving on, that I didn't deserve it and she hoped I would be okay. She never answered any of my questions about whether what my wife was telling was true, but why would she? After all, I hadn't done her the courtesy of reaching out to her right away. I sat on it bc OMW can be a little vindictive and I was worried about what she might do vis a vis my son and her son, etc.


----------



## Thumos

EleGirl said:


> If you don't mind sharing, how many questions were in the polygraph test?


I only did two. After talking it through with the examiner he recommended no more than 3 for accuracy's sake. It was whittled down to 2 questions. He phrased them carefully but basically they covered:

1. Sex more than once during the affair?
2. Did sex happen anywhere near or in the bedroom area?

She passed the 2nd question and failed the first question.

I can't remember the percentage of accuracy they assign for 2 questions, but it's above 90 percent.


----------



## Thumos

I will keep posting here on this thread, but I think I'll lay off the other threads. I'm beyond disappointed at the atmosphere of amoral and wayward thinking in some of them.


----------



## OutofRetirement

If a few anons bother you so much, how did you stay with your wife for 4 years given the little bit you've even shared here about what she's said and done?


----------



## Thumos

OutofRetirement said:


> If a few anons bother you so much, how did you stay with your wife for 4 years given the little bit you've even shared here about what she's said and done?


It’s the tacit endorsement of wayward amorality that bothers me not the existence of individuals who can’t be faithful to their spouses. Actually their existence does bother me, but I understand it’s part of a fallen world. In any case, staying with a wayward spouse is not the same thing as endorsing their failed ethics. Not even close. Especially if one stays for financial reasons, children, etc. It’s easy to recommend that someone without kids or many Finanacial entanglements in a younger marriage divorce after infidelity — and that should almost always happen in my view. It’s a much thornier challenge with nearly a quarter of a century, but I’m working it out in any case to sever that relationship.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Well don’t worry you’re not telling me something I didn’t know 😂 - those with nothing to hide, hide nothing.
> 
> she refused to turn the phone over for forensic recovery, then went and got a new phone.
> 
> what else is there to say about that?
> 
> At one point in the first 6 mos after DDAY she told me the texts between them were private when I brought it up.
> 
> the MC we saw at the beginning the first year told her not to share the texts and said I shouldn’t read them. Natch.
> 
> she also later DARVO’d me by saying if I’d really wanted the phone I should have been more forceful about it.


If you divorce call the marriage counselor and ask for your money back. Actually you should tell your wife her initial reaction is why you are getting divorced and maybe she will tell them.

But at this point you know it's a waste to go to MC in the first year anyway. Almost always does more damage then good.


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> It’s the tacit endorsement of wayward amorality that bothers me not the existence of individuals who can’t be faithful to their spouses. Actually their existence does bother me, but I understand it’s part of a fallen world. In any case, staying with a wayward spouse is not the same thing as endorsing their failed ethics. Not even close. Especially if one stays for financial reasons, children, etc. It’s easy to recommend that someone without kids or many Finanacial entanglements in a younger marriage divorce after infidelity — and that should almost always happen in my view. It’s a much thornier challenge with nearly a quarter of a century, but I’m working it out in any case to sever that relationship.


I get that your thinking HAS changed some, I get that your wife seems to "Think" everything is OK, I get that you are confused. 

But I just want you to think about this. Initially I tried to say with my ex, and she had a host of problems, not just her infidelity, but brother, in your case I just don't think it will get better, and I think SHE thinks she has you by the balls. 

It is not good for kids to be around anything toxic. I know you think they don't know, they do at some level. 

I thought I was doing the right thing, staying with my wife, keeping the family together, I was not. 

Yeah they turned out OK, but they knew what I was going thorough was not right. I did them no favors. 

I got lucky. 

It is not worth it, everyone says that it is, it is not, not for you, not for your kids. 

Not trying to bash you, just saying...


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> But at this point you know it's a waste to go to MC in the first year anyway. Almost always does more damage then good.


Unfortunately I didn’t know that at the time, and I don’t believe my WW did either. We had to learn the hard way.


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> I thought I was doing the right thing, staying with my wife, keeping the family together, I was not.


I know and I’m working this out.

To your point about her thought process, I do think my WW thinks her vagina is magic. And in some ways it is. She’s a very attractive woman, no doubt. But the magic has diminished A LOT the past year. On top of everything else, the drama of the past year with her really killed off any affection or trust I had left for her. I’m not saying I hate her. Not at all. As I’ve alluded to, Retrouvaille helped to begin to restore my faith, which took body blow after body blow after D-Day. Overall I’m in a MUCH better headspace than one year ago (and certainly than six months ago when I had the heart attack scare brought on by all of the stress).

That’s one of the reasons I actually don’t regret staying. I’ll be in a better financial positions, one of our kids is out of the nest now, and I’m in a healthier spiritual and psychological space than I would have been had I walked away right after D-Day. That’s not the case for everyone. It’s the case for me.

That said, as some one else pointed out, I never would have had the heart attack scare (probably) if I had left nearly 3.5 years ago. I could second guess Myself until I go crazy.


----------



## RebuildingMe

Thumos said:


> I know and I’m working this out.
> 
> To your point about her thought process, I do think my WW thinks her vagina is magic. And in some ways it is. She’s a very attractive woman, no doubt. But the magic has diminished A LOT the past year. On top of everything else, the drama of the past year with her really killed off any affection or trust I had left for her. I’m not saying I hate her. Not at all. As I’ve alluded to, Retrouvaille helped to begin to restore my faith, which took body blow after body blow after D-Day. Overall I’m in a MUCH better headspace than one year ago (and certainly than six months ago when I had the heart attack scare brought on by all of the stress).
> 
> That’s one of the reasons I actually don’t regret staying. I’ll be in a better financial positions, one of our kids is out of the nest now, and I’m in a healthier spiritual and psychological space than I would have been had I walked away right after D-Day. That’s not the case for everyone. It’s the case for me.
> 
> That said, as some one else pointed out, I never would have had the heart attack scare (probably) if I had left nearly 3.5 years ago. I could second guess Myself until I go crazy.


I’ve read this over and over again in your posts. You seem to feel that giving up your prime years of life is a fair trade off for money and how your ‘almost adult’ kids are going to be happier you stayed. This is false narrative you are believing. However, I think you tell yourself this as a justification for staying.

Believe me, I’ve been there. I was cheated on a month before you were. I wasted three years of my life searching, reading and going down rabbit holes at 2am while my stbx was fast asleep. True clarity didn’t come to me until after the divorce was filed. Now I know I wasted three good years of my life. I hope you find that clarity someday as you are well on your way to wasting far more years.


----------



## Thumos

RebuildingMe said:


> I’ve read this over and over again in your posts. You seem to feel that giving up your prime years of life is a fair trade off for money and how your ‘almost adult’ kids are going to be happier you stayed. This is false narrative you are believing. However, I think you tell yourself this as a justification for staying.
> 
> Believe me, I’ve been there. I was cheated on a month before you were. I wasted three years of my life searching, reading and going down rabbit holes at 2am while my stbx was fast asleep. True clarity didn’t come to me until after the divorce was filed. Now I know I wasted three good years of my life. I hope you find that clarity someday as you are well on your way to wasting far more years.


Sounds familiar - Were there kids involved In the marriage that just ended?

I take this just happened within the last 6-9 months - if so how are the kids now?

Big house to sell? Mortgage? Other entangled finances? 

Did you just wake up one day and file? Or plan ahead a bit?


----------



## TAMAT

Thumos,

You wrote, *There was lots of heavy petting, deep kissing, and secret meet ups in cars, at her work and elsewhere. *

Does she think this was not sex? I suspect this is also a redefinition my W uses.

Did passionate kissing come back or was that lost for you, I can say that it was lost for me after OM1 I thought I could give her enough love to revive it but it never came back.

This does not sound like meaningless sex, although perhaps the sex she has with you is equally meaningless to her.

I'm not in favor of your divorcing btw for the same reasons you are, however knowing your spouse is lying by omission to you for years or decades is no way to live. I think you can recover but only with a self emptying confession by your WW. Proverbs "an honest answer is like a kiss on the lips"


----------



## TAMAT

Thumos,

Is there an outside chance the OM would confess to you?

Offer him peace for the truth, or for not exposing his name widely.

Did he have other affairs you can expose, perhaps the other BHs can do your work for you.


----------



## sokillme

TAMAT said:


> Thumos,
> 
> You wrote, *There was lots of heavy petting, deep kissing, and secret meet ups in cars, at her work and elsewhere. *
> 
> Does she think this was not sex? I suspect this is also a redefinition my W uses.
> 
> Did passionate kissing come back or was that lost for you, I can say that it was lost for me after OM1 I thought I could give her enough love to revive it but it never came back.
> 
> This does not sound like meaningless sex, although perhaps the sex she has with you is equally meaningless to her.
> 
> I'm not in favor of your divorcing btw for the same reasons you are, however knowing your spouse is lying by omission to you for years or decades is no way to live. I think you can recover but only with a self emptying confession by your WW. Proverbs "an honest answer is like a kiss on the lips"


You should never have to write a 1 next to OM. 😳 OM should be enough to lead to XW.

You are not in favor of divorcing and you have a 1 implying there is a 2, is there a 3?


----------



## Thumos

TAMAT said:


> Is there an outside chance the OM would confess to you?
> 
> Offer him peace for the truth, or for not exposing his name widely.


I have no desire to offer him anything or to give him a chance to lie to my face.

Actually OM had an affair with his current wife ( the OBS ) when she was married to another man. He stole her from her husband. Or I guess more accrurate to say they are two cheaters meant for each other.

That’s One reason why I didn’t spend a lot of time contacting her or pressing her for Details of what she might know, comparing notes etc. She cheated with OM before he turned around and betrayed her with — so two philanderers and what did she expect?

I surmise this is why OBS also was willing to demand the new McMansion etc. she’s quite materialistic so this was an opportunity to get her hooks into OM’s daddy’s money.

I hate being surrounded by all this filth. It’s like trying to be a somewhat virtuous man in Sodom or Gomorrah. I swear sometimes it feels like the fall of the Roman Empire in this nation. And maybe it is.


----------



## Thumos

RebuildingMe said:


> almost adult’ kids


A 10 year old is not anywhere near an almost adult.

the other one is legally an adult sure

and we do give up some of our ability to just do whatever we want as parents. I’m not a Baby Boomer. That was how they operated. Most destructive generation ever.

whatever feels good do it ain’t my motto


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I have no desire to offer him anything or to give him a chance to lie to my face.
> 
> Actually OM had an affair with his current wife ( the OBS ) when she was married to another man. He stole her from her husband. Or I guess more accrurate to say they are two cheaters meant for each other.
> 
> That’s One reason why I didn’t spend a lot of time contacting her or pressing her for Details of what she might know, comparing notes etc. She cheated with OM before he turned around and betrayed her with — so two philanderers and what did she expect?
> 
> I surmise this is why OBS also was willing to demand the new McMansion etc. she’s quite materialistic so this was an opportunity to get her hooks into OM’s daddy’s money.
> 
> I hate being surrounded by all this filth. It’s like trying to be a somewhat virtuous man in Sodom or Gomorrah. I swear sometimes it feels like the fall of the Roman Empire in this nation. And maybe it is.


Is it.

Your wife is lot's wife though. I mean your not surrounded you married to one of them.

Did you know that before you let them in your social circle?


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> A 10 year old is not anywhere near an almost adult.
> 
> the other one is legally an adult sure
> 
> and we do give up some of our ability to just do whatever we want as parents. I’m not a Baby Boomer. That was how they operated. Most destructive generation ever.
> 
> whatever feels good do it ain’t my motto


I know you won't believe it, but this stuff is not true. Your kids seeing you TRULY happy without their mother would be better for them. 

I am a late baby boomer, and there is no way we are destructive as a generation. As a matter of fact lots of people would say that permissive parenting and helicopter parenting of the subsequent generation and the emasculation of men it the most destructive generation that the US has ever seen. 

And that was not our motto. 

You can believe that you are sacrificing yourself for your kids, but they don't see it that way. When they grow up they will model what you have done. Some of the kids in this situation think they sacrificed their happy child hood for some miserable cheating parents. 

I know I won't convince you, sometime it think people have to live through this and then YEARS later, they come to realize that the assholes at TAM were right all along.

I hope you get it figured out and you are happy...


----------



## OutofRetirement

Thumos said:


> It’s the tacit endorsement of wayward amorality that bothers me not the existence of individuals who can’t be faithful to their spouses.


What? Your wife did not endorse wayward amorality? Please. It seems she is still endorsing it "tacitly."

What? The other people here you are so bothered by don't have finances and children and long marriages?

This is what it looks like to me - you have one standard for other people and a different standard for yourself, but you can find very fine distinctions to say why what you are doing/saying is acceptable but others similarly situated is not.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Did you know that before you let them in your social circle?


Definitely not. I am (or was) too trusting - no I only found this out later by digging around


----------



## Thumos

OutofRetirement said:


> What? Your wife did not endorse wayward amorality? Please. It seems she is still endorsing it "tacitly."


I agree. And more than tacitly on her part. One could argue I’m the tacit one by staying with her - but I think everyone would agree (even when they don’t agree with my staying with her) that my reasons have nothing at all do with endorsing and cheering on adultery ethics. You can certainly argue you disagree with my reasons or don’t find them valid. But you can’t argue that I find adultery a societal good.

I’m in palpable pain over her decisions and her actions are a moral horror. And that’s the case EVERY SINGLE TIME with infidelity.

And everyone of us knows this.

It’s why only a tiny fraction of the general public when surveyed tries to even defend adultery - six percent or less. It’s because of the law written on our hearts, the moral law. The natural law.

so I’m what you’ve quoted (and I think you know this but chose to elude for some reason) I’m talking about people on a forum cheering the same sort of Wayward thinking that leads to and exacerbated the consequences of infidelity — and then bizarrely inveighing against anyone who tries to get that woman to see reason.They’ve tried to convince her over and over (not very convincingly and increasingly weakly) she should keep digging that hole and maybe she will succeed in keeping her deep dark secret buried.

As if that will solve anything. As if her husband will be better off in any metaphysical or physical sense by her keeping up the charade and remaining in a marriage based on false pretenses.

so look I think we can talk and chew gum at the same time here.

I think we can talk about my situation on this thread and we can make the case for why I need to get off high center here and take action for my well-being. Fine. Great. I didn’t come here because I anticipated you would all pat me on the back and say everything was okay. I knew the 2x4s would be 2x6s instead. I read the opening. I saw the “invite”

But we can also say resoundingly (I hope) that a group of people who are trying to convince a lady to do exactly the WRONG thing are also WRONG. Making value judgements is not sanctimonious and it’s not what Jesus was talking about when he said “Judge not lest you be judged” so don’t even go there with me. Making value judgements is a part of your God-given mind, or if you’re an atheist a brain that seems to be pinnacle of what our material reality is capable of producing randomly.

Hopefully you’re not going to sit there and tell me on the one hand I need to divorce my wife but on the other hand “well maybe this lady over here can just continue to lie to herself and her husband.”

Really? No. Come on, now


----------



## Thumos

OutofRetirement said:


> What? The other people here you are so bothered by don't have finances and children and long marriages?


Actually I asked a previous poster here what his situation was bc I genuinely wanted to know. I think those are perfectly legit questions for someone like me trying to make one of the most important decisions of his life.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Your wife is lot's wife though. I mean your not surrounded you married to one of them.


Actually lot’s wife is probably me - the person who is attached to what was and looks back and is stuck in limbo (immobilized as a pillar of salt).


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I agree. And more than tacitly on her part. One could argue I’m the tacit one by staying with her - but I think everyone would agree (even when they don’t agree with my staying with her) that my reasons have nothing at all do with endorsing and cheering on adultery ethics. You can certainly argue you disagree with my reasons or don’t find them valid. But you can’t argue that I find adultery a societal good.
> 
> I’m in palpable pain over her decisions and her actions are a moral horror. And that’s the case EVERY SINGLE TIME with infidelity.
> 
> And everyone of us knows this.
> 
> It’s why only a tiny fraction of the general public when surveyed tries to even defend adultery - six percent or less. It’s because of the law written on our hearts, the moral law. The natural law.
> 
> so I’m what you’ve quoted (and I think you know this but chose to elude for some reason) I’m talking about people on a forum cheering the same sort of Wayward thinking that leads to and exacerbated the consequences of infidelity — and then bizarrely inveighing against anyone who tries to get that woman to see reason.They’ve tried to convince her over and over (not very convincingly and increasingly weakly) she should keep digging that hole and maybe she will succeed in keeping her deep dark secret buried.
> 
> As if that will solve anything. As if her husband will be better off in any metaphysical or physical sense by keeping up the charade.
> 
> so look I think we can talk and chew gum at the same time here.
> 
> I think we can talk about my situation on this thread and we can make the case for why I need to get off high center here and take action for my well-being. Fine. Great. I didn’t come here because I anticipated you would all pat me on the back and say everything was okay. I knew the 2x4s would be 2x6s instead. I read the opening. I saw the “invite”
> 
> But we can also say resoundingly (I hope) that a group of people who are trying to convince a lady to do exactly the WRONG thing are also WRONG. Making value judgements is not sanctimonious and it’s not what Jesus was talking about when he said “Judge not lest you be judged” so don’t even go there with me. Making value judgements is a part of your God-given mind, or if you’re an atheist a brain that seems to be pinnacle of what our material reality is capable of producing randomly.
> 
> Hopefully you’re not going to sit there and tell me on the one hand I need to divorce my wife but on the hand “well maybe this lady over here can just continue to lie to herself and her husband.”
> 
> Really? No. Come on, now


I don't know, I think don't overestimate the human race. Ever hear the song "Me and Mrs Jones"? First of all you being a Christian have been taught that man has a sinful nature. I wouldn't look for consensus but especially on a message board. Besides that you are never going to get one, if that is what you are looking for you are going to be disappointed, in life. I say get to the point where YOUR OWN yes is yes and YOUR OWN no is no, and you don't give a **** about anyone else. I don't care what your morals are, I care what my morals are, particularly someone on a discussion board. I am the one who has to hold myself accountable. That doesn't mean I am not going to say that you are going to hurt other people, hell yeah I will call people out but if you don't believe me so what. I know I am right anyway. 

Actually a better take is to assess, see if you need improvement and then make your choice, but if you know you are right who gives I **** if people think differently. Argue your point.

I mean maybe that is part of the problem. Perhaps in the same way, a lot of this has been not wanting to accept who your wife is, in the sense that she is still the women who did that monsterous thing and hasn't really did much to change that, like you say, like Lot's wife yearning for something that is bad for you. Look everyone on here knows my Dad cheated. I love him as much as I can, but I am not blind to who he is. I know when push comes to shove who he is going to pick, it ain't me. It is what it is. If I need someone to go that far to bat for me I am going to pick someone else, when I was young my Mom. As an adult various people including my wife. And I am damn glad I am not married to him because that would suck. Having an authentic life is not just about being yourself, it's about being realistic about others even if you love them.

It is pretty common for BS to really refuse to see their spouses for the people they are. I think it's because seeing who they are means seeing the bad choices you are making. It's about giving up on the dream. Most if not all of the time the choice to stay with a cheating spouse is an emotional one (baring finances), not going to put the kids in there because I just don't believe kids can't do fine in divorce. Particularly because I am one. Logic and reason don't work in reconciliation. The other end of that coin is once you really "emotionally" accept who they are it's not so hard to give up because you realize you are probably better off. It's addition by subtraction. Not saying it's easy.

One other thing I think you might want to accept is that after 4 years you are in pain still because you choose to stay. Not saying you made an informed choice. Unfortunately not a lot of people tell you the truth about it. The truth is choosing to stay emotionally is choosing to stay in pain. You can divorce or stay married, but if you stay emotionally attached, the pain doesn't go away. You may learn to live with it but it's there. Anyone who says otherwise is lying. It absolutely goes away when you leave. The act of leaving and taking your agency and self respect back starts the process.

That paragraph should be locked at the top of every infidelity board because that is the first thing anyone who is cheated on should know.


----------



## RebuildingMe

Thumos said:


> Sounds familiar - Were there kids involved In the marriage that just ended?
> 
> I take this just happened within the last 6-9 months - if so how are the kids now?
> 
> Big house to sell? Mortgage? Other entangled finances?
> 
> Did you just wake up one day and file? Or plan ahead a bit?


I have 8 year old twins. We filed in December. She is buying me out of the house. We can’t agree on custody or child support. I’ve been out of the house. I see my kids 9 nights out of 28 as a temporary agreement. If I can’t get a few more nights, we will have a custody trial. No child support has been award yet. She makes about 10k more than I do a year, but combined we make about 300k. 
My life is so much better. My relationship with my kids is so much stronger. I waited about 6 months to start dating. She dated right away. I’ve met about 10 women, been on dates, have had sex, blow jobs, etc. Its all been great getting to know different people. I’ve been with the same one now for about 6 weeks. I kinda like this one. Lol.

We have a lot of finances to work out, but most are a matter of law. She’s worth more than me, so she will be hurt financially. She will be sharing more of her 401k and state funded pension. I have an investment condo that is separate property, so she knows she ain’t getting that.

I was booted off of SI like a year ago. I used to post there pretty often. Too many weak minded men who wallow in their misery. Too many “I don’t get the sex the AP got”. They will never feel better until they LEAVE their crappy marriages. They never will. I know your story. Your timeline is the same as mine. Glad you are here now. Hit me up if you want to chat.

BTW, just for background, stbx cheated with an ex bf she remained ‘friends’ with our entire 12 marriage. I didn’t find out about him until election night, 2016 when I walked in on her, naked, having phone sex with him. Did the whole VAR, investigation, contacting his wife, etc. Now, it’s really no longer a thought in my head. I literally saved my life getting out of my marriage. I hope you can someday also. Good luck brother.


----------



## RebuildingMe

Thumos said:


> A 10 year old is not anywhere near an almost adult.
> 
> the other one is legally an adult sure
> 
> and we do give up some of our ability to just do whatever we want as parents. I’m not a Baby Boomer. That was how they operated. Most destructive generation ever.
> 
> whatever feels good do it ain’t my motto


My bad, I thought your youngest was a teenager. Mine are young. However, I’m not sacrificing my life for theirs. Just the opposite, actually. My relationship with them is so much better because they see a happy daddy and mommy no longer interferes with our relationship.


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos,

I don't want to thread jack, unless you allow it. What is your opinion of the 36yearsgone situation over at SI? I find it incredibly sad.


----------



## Thumos

Haven’t followed it much except I told him that the retinal detachment could easily have been caused by his WW hitting him. I can’t understand why someone would put up with physical abuse on top of infidelity


----------



## sokillme

Something is very wrong in that situation and infidelity is only one of the symptoms. I doubt it just started in the last few years.

I mean but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it's not just the WS that is broken in a lot of these situations.


----------



## Galabar01

My "diagnosis" is that he is afraid to leave his wife (and couching his decision in religion).


----------



## sokillme

Dudes right were he wants to be. It's not like he doesn't know who she is.


----------



## sokillme

Honestly after reading post after post of ineffectual men I have to say they are just as toxic as their cheating wives. You get treated the way you allow.


----------



## RebuildingMe

sokillme said:


> Honestly after reading post after post of ineffectual men I have to say they are just as toxic as their cheating wives. You get treated the way you allow.


It’s not just the weak men over at SI. The women allow two, three, four chances and they still don’t file. Although, I would suspect that a great deal of these cases involve SAHM’s that have allowed them selfs to get ‘stuck’ over the years.

Neanderthal is my new hero. Waited, refused to eat the **** sandwich and filed. Because WW’s are generally treated like princesses on the wayward forum, Neanderthal is getting chased off.


----------



## BluesPower

RebuildingMe said:


> It’s not just the weak men over at SI. The women allow two, three, four chances and they still don’t file. Although, I would suspect that a great deal of these cases involve SAHM’s that have allowed them selfs to get ‘stuck’ over the years.
> 
> Neanderthal is my new hero. Waited, refused to eat the **** sandwich and filed. Because WW’s are generally treated like princesses on the wayward forum, Neanderthal is getting chased off.


But you know N and his situation, I just think he has issues. 

I mean, if you want to divorce, then just do it. Don't self flagellate about how terrible you are and string everyone alone. 

I thought when his wife pulled her head out she really pulled it out. I was actually for giving her a chance myself and I almost never say that. 

But him beating himself up and bla bla bla, dude just file and move on or don't. 

I feel differently about that one.


----------



## sokillme

RebuildingMe said:


> It’s not just the weak men over at SI. The women allow two, three, four chances and they still don’t file. Although, I would suspect that a great deal of these cases involve SAHM’s that have allowed them selfs to get ‘stuck’ over the years.
> 
> Neanderthal is my new hero. Waited, refused to eat the **** sandwich and filed. Because WW’s are generally treated like princesses on the wayward forum, Neanderthal is getting chased off.


Yeah then he found out OM was a maintenance man in the same apartment complex they lived in years before the cheating supposedly started. Unsurprisingly he now thinks she may have been cheating the whole time. Want's to DNA test his kid. Everyone gave him a hard time, um no she lied to the board for months why would anyone believe a word this women says, just because she is sad now? Or because she is defiant, like she wasn't defiant before? 

No way character is character, seem more then a coincidence. You mean to tell me she didn't know that already? Why didn't she say something?


----------



## BluesPower

sokillme said:


> Yeah then he found out OM was a maintenance man in the same apartment complex they lived in years before the cheating supposedly started. Unsurprisingly he now thinks she may have been cheating the whole time. Want's to DNA test his kid. Everyone gave him a hard time, um no she lied to the board for months why would anyone believe a word this women says, just because she is sad now? Or because she is defiant, like she wasn't defiant before?
> 
> No way character is character, seem more then a coincidence. You mean to tell me she didn't know that already? Why didn't she say something?


Yeah those are some of the issues I think. For me, my Fiancé lived in a nice complex and she had no idea who the Maintenance guys were. Now granted, it does look funny to an extent. 

But I just did not get that impression. If she is lying and she was screwing that guy that early in the marriage, then she tops the list of horrible WW's on SI. 

But I did not buy that part at all. And he had the opportunity to POLY her and do a DNA test, and he did neither. 

All I am saying is, he was so wishy washy the way that he decided about all of it. Maybe she was screwing the guy the whole time, but I would have done the poly and DNA test. 

But who know???


----------



## Thumos

RebuildingMe said:


> Because WW’s are generally treated like princesses on the wayward forum, Neanderthal is getting chased off.


Interesting I did not know this. How are they chasing him off?


----------



## Galabar01

sokillme said:


> Yeah then he found out OM was a maintenance man in the same apartment complex they lived in years before the cheating supposedly started. Unsurprisingly he now thinks she may have been cheating the whole time. Want's to DNA test his kid. Everyone gave him a hard time, um no she lied to the board for months why would anyone believe a word this women says, just because she is sad now? Or because she is defiant, like she wasn't defiant before?
> 
> No way character is character, seem more then a coincidence. You mean to tell me she didn't know that already? Why didn't she say something?


I found this to be the most surprising. Usually, the advice would be to do exactly what he wants to do.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

I think all betrayed should thank their OMs, not for banging their wives, but exposing them as the trash they are, before they wasted any more years of their life.

Most of them figure it out eventually, the others spend the rest of their lives whining over in Reconciliation section of SI. Their own Purgatory. I guess that's something. There seems to be no shortage of them until they eventually wind up in the Divorce section and finally trickle off the board forever. Then you know they found peace or a hot blonde atleast!


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Yeah then he found out OM was a maintenance man in the same apartment complex they lived in years before the cheating supposedly started. Unsurprisingly he now thinks she may have been cheating the whole time. Want's to DNA test his kid.


Quite a coincidence. And now there’s absolute silence on her thread about it. Really fascinating. This is the equivalent of a little mini-scandal for SI since this has been one of the most talked about couples on that site for quite some time. And this revelation is a plot reversal that calls into question almost everything N thought he knew about his WW “LD”


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Quite a coincidence. And now there’s absolute silence on her thread about it. Really fascinating. This is the equivalent of a little mini-scandal for SI since this has been one of the most talked about couples on that site for quite some time. And this revelation is a plot reversal that calls into question almost everything N thought he knew about his WW “LD”


Does it though, she lied to everyone on the board when everyone was telling her she was lying for almost 6 months until the poly. She has a difficult relationship with the truth. She was just as defiant about it then as she is now. I wouldn't believe her as far as I could throw her.

I am more inclined to believe where there is smoke there is fire. 

Also this would not be the first time this happened. It might not be her, but some people are just sociopaths.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> I am more inclined to believe where there is smoke there is fire.


I am too. I just asked and she responded she did not know anyone other than one other couple at the complex at the time. 

That said, She also says N has a paternity test and can administer it any time he wants and that she’s also offered to take a second polygraph on the point of whether she knew AP at the time they lived there. My impression is they live in a relatively small town. Life can offer up some pretty bizarre coincidences, a fact I am well aware of as a former journalist.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I am too. I just asked and she responded she did not know anyone other than one other couple at the complex at the time.
> 
> That said, She also says N has a paternity test and can administer it any time he wants and that she’s also offered to take a second polygraph on the point of whether she knew AP at the time they lived there. My impression is they live in a relatively small town. Life can offer up some pretty bizarre coincidences, a fact I am well aware of as a former journalist.


And it never came up why they were having an affair? I mean talk about small world.


----------



## RebuildingMe

Why should N poly if he’s D? LD is in no way a safe candidate for R, most aren’t. I know N has his own issues from the beginning of the M and the drinking, etc. however, I for one am glad he’s running. LD is coddled over there and it makes me vomit in my mouth. N should be DNA’g his daughter tomorrow. N suggests paternity and all the “former” WW’s jump to her defense? Disgusting...


----------



## sokillme

I would get a paternity test though that is for sure. Given that she lied for months would anyone be surprised if the kid isn't his? I wouldn't. I mean the incredulousness of people over there is ridiculous.


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos, what is your long-term game plan? I know you feel stuck. I guess the question is, how do you get the truth? If the truth isn't forthcoming, how do you get the strength to leave?


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> Quite a coincidence. And now there’s absolute silence on her thread about it. Really fascinating. This is the equivalent of a little mini-scandal for SI since this has been one of the most talked about couples on that site for quite some time. And this revelation is a plot reversal that calls into question almost everything N thought he knew about his WW “LD”


@sokillme and @Thumos,

Do you guys really think she was banging this guy before?

I just want to say that N had the opportunity for another poly and a DNA for the kids.

I don't think I believe this one. The other thing about N, is like I said, the dude has issues. Big deep depressive and anger issues.

He was so combative on his thread. And I don't for a second think that he did not have anything to be pissed about. But dude if you are that upset, and I get it, then just divorce an year ago.

I just don't think she is that devious but I could be completely wrong.


----------



## BluesPower

sokillme said:


> And it never came up why they were having an affair? I mean talk about small world.


What are you saying with this one?

She met the dude at school I thought, she was a teacher and he was a teacher or something. That part was typical affair as far as I can tell.


----------



## RebuildingMe

BluesPower said:


> What are you saying with this one?
> 
> She met the dude at school I thought, she was a teacher and he was a teacher or something. That part was typical affair as far as I can tell.


Is she (LD) the one that brought her daughter to his house as a play date while she was banging the OM? I might be getting confused.

Thermos, sorry for the T/J. This has morphed into a discussion of SI stories, because on SI, we’d be banned for telling it like it is.


----------



## BluesPower

RebuildingMe said:


> Is she (LD) the one that brought her daughter to his house as a play date while she was banging the OM? I might be getting confused.
> 
> Thermos, sorry for the T/J. This has morphed into a discussion of SI stories, because on SI, we’d be banned for telling it like it is.


No that one was IAMTRASH... 

Not that LD was any kind of angel but that one was really bad... Worse than normal....


----------



## Thumos

RebuildingMe said:


> hy should N poly if he’s D?


If he wants to know whether she is lying about knowing the AP at the time, which would indicate the affair had gone on for much longer. From his own posts, this seems to be his bone of contention. Regardless, N also has a paternity test and can administer it whenever he wants.


----------



## sokillme

BluesPower said:


> What are you saying with this one?
> 
> She met the dude at school I thought, she was a teacher and he was a teacher or something. That part was typical affair as far as I can tell.


So to answer my thoughts about both of your posts.

I don't think he needs a poly because they are divorced. remember she already had one parking lot confession. And yes he sounds like he was a crap husband, and he may have cheated before, I have yet to find the post about this revelation everyone is talking about. Something happened. They also opened their marriage and he broke the rules. And then there was the fact that he was an alcoholic. Yeah kind of a **** husband.

I think I was more annoyed but the the fact that everyone is dismissing this other "coincidence".

I think the dude she was cheating with was a parent who "happened" to join an after school program or something. She is a teacher. So the maintenance man who lives next door who you don't know "happens" to join this program and THEN you have an long term affair?

That to me is a stretch.

Still then you have this long term affair and the fact that you live in the same building never comes up? I mean it's possible but with her history of lying it seems just as possible that they had had a much longer affair and the club was just a ruse so they could spend time together easier.

Assuming the child is his I don't think it matters anymore, it's like death by guy or knife. Your still dead.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Regardless, N also has a paternity test and can administer it whenever he wants.


And it should at this point. That women and the truth seem to be estranged.


----------



## Thumos

Galabar01 said:


> Thumos, what is your long-term game plan? I know you feel stuck. I guess the question is, how do you get the truth? If the truth isn't forthcoming, how do you get the strength to leave?


Not as stuck as my original thread at SI would imply (certainly I felt very stuck last year when I started it) - I’m not as much a reconciliation addict hopelessly puffing on the hopium, it’s just that I am a VERY stubborn man. Everyone who knows me says the same thing: intense, passionate, smart as hell, stubborn. So if there was a way to save my family I wanted to find it and leave no stone unturned. But of course I’d never been down this path and I didn’t know what to expect - who would, really? It’s uncharted territory unless you’ve been cheated on before.

All that is to say I’ve found the strength to leave. My greatest fear all along has been what happens to my kids. It’s very clear to me and to my WW that had it not been for our children, I would have separated without hesitation immediately in 2016. I didn’t, I thought I knew better, I thought I was stronger than men who leave with kids involved. I was wrong.

yesterday I had a lengthy de-escalated conversation with my WW about separation and a mediated divorce. I know some would not pursue this strategy. You’re not here with me in my house in my shoes. She isn’t a lunatic and she already knew where this was headed in any case. In December right after the failed poly she knew I wanted a divorce. The heart scare and pandemic lockdowns stretched things out and she probably assumed that had calmed the waters. I made it clear yesterday it had not. So none of this is news to her. All along the past couple of years we have discussed the very real possibility of divorce and have discussed mediation.

I believe she will honor this.

My plan is as I have said - finish paying off our debt, and then pursue mediation with a 50/50 split of our youngest. I think we will be ready to do that in 3-4 mos meaning we could have this wrapped up by the end of the year (could).

she is of course still holding out hope. She sent a note to our betrayal trauma IC partners requesting a copy of the timeline. They had retained it after I read it thru several times and asked many questions —in this way they seek to avoid rumination, which I agree is unhealthy. this gesture is fine as far as it goes but it accomplishes nothing functionally. Because in our discussion yesterday I made it clear her behavior last fall was the final nail - it was the fact that she had dragged her feet for 3 years in giving me the timeline, rather than the timeline itself, that was the larger issue.

regardless, that’s where I am. I’m No longer trying to convince her of anything or in having anymore detailed convos about it

I had been reaching this conclusion the past several weeks, and arrived at this conclusion several days before I began posting her me at TAM. if you look at my SI thread you will see I started actively posting again there two weeks ago. I provided a lengthy update there on July 16 after months of not posting and it reflects the same thoughts I’m expressing here in a lengthier format.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> I think the dude she was cheating with was a parent who "happened" to join an after school program or something.


If memory serves OM was a parent of one of her students. This sounds like a plausible basis for starting an affair.


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> Not as stuck as my original thread at SI would imply (certainly I felt very stuck last year when I started it) - I’m not as much a reconciliation addict hopelessly puffing on the hopium, it’s just that I am a VERY stubborn man. Everyone who knows me says the same thing: intense, passionate, smart as hell, stubborn. So if there was a way to save my family I wanted to find it and leave no stone unturned. But of course I’d never been down this path and I didn’t know what to expect - who would, really? It’s uncharted territory unless you’ve been cheated on before.
> 
> All that is to say I’ve found the strength to leave. My greatest fear all along has been what happens to my kids. It’s very clear to me and to my WW that had it not been for our children, I would have separated without hesitation immediately in 2016. I didn’t, I thought I knew better, I thought I was stronger than men who leave with kids involved. I was wrong.
> 
> yesterday I had a lengthy de-escalated conversation with my WW about separation and a mediated divorce. I know some would not pursue this strategy. You’re not here with me in my house in my shoes. She isn’t a lunatic and she already knew where this was headed in any case. In December right after the failed poly she knew I wanted a divorce. The heart scare and pandemic lockdowns stretched things out and she probably assumed that had calmed the waters. I made it clear yesterday it had not. So none of this is news to her. All along the past couple of years we have discussed the very real possibility of divorce and have discussed mediation.
> 
> I believe she will honor this.
> 
> My plan is as I have said - finish paying off our debt, and then pursue mediation with a 50/50 split of our youngest. I think we will be ready to do that in 3-4 mos meaning we could have this wrapped up by the end of the year (could).
> 
> she is of course still holding out hope. She sent a note to our betrayal trauma IC partners requesting a copy of the timeline. They had retained it after I read it thru several times and asked many questions —in this way they seek to avoid rumination, which I agree is unhealthy. this gesture is fine as far as it goes but it accomplishes nothing functionally. Because in our discussion yesterday I made it clear her behavior last fall was the final nail - it was the fact that she had dragged her feet for 3 years in giving me the timeline, rather than the timeline itself, that was the larger issue.
> 
> regardless, that’s where I am. I’m No longer trying to convince her of anything or in having anymore detailed convos about it
> 
> I had been reaching this conclusion the past several weeks, and arrived at this conclusion several days before I began posting her me at TAM. if you look at my SI thread you will see I started actively posting again there two weeks ago. I provided a lengthy update there on July 16 after months of not posting and it reflects the same thoughts I’m expressing here in a lengthier format.


Your first two paragraphs are so much like me, it make me sick to think I was like that, not offense. 

I actually kept it together until the kids were done and I had a stroke. I was such a fool. I actually could have died. 

I came out of the stroke unscathed but staying with her, and the cheating was not even the worst part, that really damaged me a lot. 

I am so glad that you are getting out. You knew and know she is lying and has been for 4 years. 

My question to you, and you may not have an answer for it, why is she still lying. 

What purpose does it serve... what good do it do? Just what does she think she will gain from it???


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> If memory serves OM was a parent of one of her students. This sounds like a plausible basis for starting an affair.


I agree it is, but the one I lead down is too.


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> My question to you, and you may not have an answer for it, why is she still lying.


I can only assume her self image is very tied up in this. She’s already said on numerous occasions she wishes she’d never admitted she had sex with him at all. I had no proof of that, see, only that an affair happened. She couldn’t do anything about the proof I had but for a short time tried to convince me it was only an emotional affair. She finally confessed to the sex about a week after DDAY. Who knows what happened. Im sure her hand was forced in some way. Like most female cheaters, she was in damage control mode from day one. She doesn’t want the shame attached to my knowing she willingly invited another man into our home. So I can only assume there’s more that is more sordid that she believes would completely immolate whatever shred of affection I have left for her. It’s hard to conclude anything else


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I thought I was stronger than men who leave with kids involved. I was wrong.


And IMO this is where you still not thinking clearly about this. You are not leaving your kid, if you do I will be the first to condemn you. You are choosing not to live with him every day that's it.

Stay emotionally present with him, if anything be more present. Call him text him, learn or continue to know what is going on in his life, don't take no for an answer. Making the effort is where this will all hinge. Make sure he knows you love him and want to be involved with him. If gets annoyed tell him it's because you love him. He will get over it, and 20 years from now he will be fiercely loyal to you. He will do fine, and besides it's your kid, I can't imagine anything better then this.

This is my Dad and I, using the avenues available in the 80s. Again I look back on those times when we would just hang out as some of the best times in my life. I wouldn't trade them for anything. I have told him that many times too, we have both said as much, laughing about it. Today I have absolutely NO feelings that he left me AT ALL. I am just very very grateful at how much he wanted to be involved with me, even though he had some serious moral failings, he didn't fail me. And in your case you don't have those failings. You can show him the difference.

One day you will tell him the whole story, and he is going to say to you. I appreciate that you tried, but I understand and wouldn't have wanted you to stay on my account. As I have told my Mother I am glad she didn't try to stay for me. You are going to tell your kids the story as adults and they are going to admire you for sticking up for yourself, like I admire my Mother. Instead of being the guy everyone feels bad for you are going to be the guy that they want to be or marry. Trust me on this, YOU KNOW I an right because you feel the SAME way. Trust that your kids will too.

Finally you didn't leave him his Mother did, period. She left all of you. Please to GOD stop taking responsibly even if it's passively. Your wife destroyed your family, you did everything in your power to save it. Your wife left your family, you stayed as long as humanly possible. You are not the villain in this story, you are the hero. And the story isn't over you are in the middle of the book. This is the end of act two, or the end of the Empire Strikes Back. But there is another movie coming out. You still got all of Jedi left.

This is all on your wife. Stop being a martyr and protecting her. That is NOT being strong. Your kid's don't need to see an indecisive parent or one who is projecting guilt. They need to see a Man who acts with honor and integrity, like as is expected. 

Dude just accept that this is who you are and be proud of it already. Your wife cheated on you and you dumped her ass. **** YEAH YOU DID! THAT is what a strong man does.

Start acting like the hero of the story already because you are!


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> I can only assume her self image is very tied up in this. She’s already said on numerous occasions she wishes she’d never admitted she had sex with him at all. I had no proof of that, see, only that an affair happened. She couldn’t do anything about the proof I had but for a short time tried to convince me it was only an emotional affair. She finally confessed to the sex about a week after DDAY. Who knows what happened. Im sure her hand was forced in some way. Like most female cheaters, she was in damage control mode from day one. She doesn’t want the shame attached to my knowing she willingly invited another man into our home. So I can only assume there’s more that is more sordid that she believes would completely immolate whatever shred of affection I have left for her. It’s hard to conclude anything else


Brother, THERE WAS MORE you know it and everyone knows it. 

I don't understand why you have any shred of affection for her now.

You should not, but I am hoping at some point it will pass.


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> I can only assume her self image is very tied up in this. She’s already said on numerous occasions she wishes she’d never admitted she had sex with him at all. I had no proof of that, see, only that an affair happened. She couldn’t do anything about the proof I had but for a short time tried to convince me it was only an emotional affair. She finally confessed to the sex about a week after DDAY. Who knows what happened. Im sure her hand was forced in some way. Like most female cheaters, she was in damage control mode from day one. She doesn’t want the shame attached to my knowing she willingly invited another man into our home. So I can only assume there’s more that is more sordid that she believes would completely immolate whatever shred of affection I have left for her. It’s hard to conclude anything else


Brother, THERE WAS MORE you know it and everyone knows it. 

I don't understand why you have any shred of affection for her now.

You should not, but I am hoping at some point it will pass.


----------



## sokillme

Loyalty, that is what this is all about and what the long lasting lesson will be for your kids. You need to decide what you believe. 

Is loyalty about the bed you sleep in every night or the people you let into that bed. 

I grew up learning that loyalty had nothing to do with living with a person but if you follow through with your promises, if you protect the people you love. If you protect them even from the worst of yourself. Finally that loyalty is earned and no one is entitled to it, therefore it's precious and need to be honored and protected. It's precious because once you lose it, it never comes back like it once was. Also it's precious in the fact that yours needs to be hard earned not freely given. That is a part of valuing ones self. Hard lessons but lessons that teach you how to be a good person and have good long lasting loyal friends, how to live with honor. It is the foundation of every relationship in your life. It informs your actions and allows you to be proud of yourself. That has been a great difference in my life. 

But I don't need to say all this because I know you feel the same way. Man I get having your son not have his father in the house all the time is a really hard thing for you to accept, but that paragraph I wrote above is SO MUCH MORE important. His understand and acting in this way is going to shape what type of man he is. If he is a man of honor or not. It's generational. 

What has your wife taught your kids so far? By extension what have you been teaching them for the last 3 years? What will you teach them going forward? How will those lessons serve them in their life?

I can only use myself as the example but. My father cheated and they separated from the age of 7 and divorced. My Mom faced that with stoic dignity, but she never allowed that to be acceptable. even passively. Look how I write about this. Look what she taught me.


----------



## Affaircare

@Thumos,

Speaking from the point of view of a former WW, I have to agree with @sokillme 's post--YOU did not kill this marriage or destroy the family. See this is yet another deflection that is very typical of cheaters (that's why I call them the DISLOYAL spouse), because in real life, you may not have been a perfect husband or father, but you were not only willing to work on your flaws, but also to do actions rather than just giving lip service. By contrast, your WW did the actual actions of committing adultery, DARVO for years, smoke and mirrors, gaslighting, lying outright, and deflecting. The natural consequence of the choice to commit adultery is that the marriage is destroyed utterly and the family unit is damaged beyond repair. 

Now, at any time she could have chosen to recognize her actions of adultery were wrong, and stop. At any time after she was discovered, she could have chosen to recognize that lying was wrong, and stop. At any time she could have chosen to look in the mirror and recognize that DARVO and gaslighting are very literally marriage killers and and were wrong, and stop. But for four years now she consciously has chosen to commit adultery, to blameshift, to gaslight, to DARVO, and to continue being dishonest. It is HER ACTIONS and the natural consequences of those actions that have killed the family--not you. 

All you have done is to formally and in a court of law acknowledge the truth of what HER ACTIONS did. She took a sledgehammer to the family and the marriage, and by divorcing you are saying "Yes, the destruction caused by the sledgehammer is too extensive to repair." The end. 

Do not let her blameshift you on this one. Do not be confused. Be CLEAR. YOU are accepting the damage SHE did and continues to do to this day. That's not to say she is a "bad" person, but really at any time in the last four years, she could have made the choice to stop defending herself and attacking you, and instead do the hard work of changing her own inner self and align her own inner values with honesty and loyalty and commitment. You've given her PLENTY of time to make that choice and act on it (not out of regret at what her choices will cost her, but out of genuine, authentic remorse). She chose NOT to do that. Okay...


----------



## Thumos

Affaircare said:


> All you have done is to formally and in a court of law acknowledge the truth of what HER ACTIONS did. She took a sledgehammer to the family and the marriage, and by divorcing you are saying "Yes, the destruction caused by the sledgehammer is too extensive to repair." The end.


I haven't done that yet, but I'm going to.


----------



## BluesPower

Affaircare said:


> @Thumos
> That's not to say she is a "bad" person, but really at any time in the last four years, she could have made the choice to stop defending herself and attacking you, and instead do the hard work of changing her own inner self and align her own inner values with honesty and loyalty and commitment. You've given her PLENTY of time to make that choice and act on it (not out of regret at what her choices will cost her, but out of genuine, authentic remorse). She chose NOT to do that. Okay...


No, AC, at this stage and for the last 4 years, she is a bad person. And frankly she has always been bad person. 

I know that T does not want to believe it but it is the truth... SHE HAS and continues to lie for FOUR YEARS. 

A good person does not do that...


----------



## sokillme

Well she certainly isn't a very moral person, in the sense that she hasn't made the choice to prioritize her own suffering over someone else's. And she just is a terrible spouse.


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos, I'm sorry to hear all that, but also pleased to hear that you have a path forward.

It's perplexing that your wife wouldn't give you the information you need. Maybe the actually divorce papers will jolt her memory (but, at this point, it doesn't look like it).

Good luck. Also, please promise us all that, if your wife hits you in the head and causes a retinal detachment, you'll leave right away...


----------



## sokillme

Is it really perplexing that someone who would have sex with someone else in their marriage home (sorry to be blunt Thumos.) would continue to choose themselves and hide details when to not do so would be very difficult?

His wife is selfish, and on top of that she is a coward. Also giving him what he wanted would be admitting it.

It's what allows her to cheat in the first place. The whole thing is a problem of character.


----------



## Thumos

Galabar01 said:


> It's perplexing that your wife wouldn't give you the information you need. Maybe the actually divorce papers will jolt her memory (but, at this point, it doesn't look like it).


Or it won't and she won't share any additional detail. There's an additonal possibility that she's tragically told me the truth at this point but engaged in behaviors that did everything possible to send me the opposite message. Either way, it doesn't really matter at this point, because even if she's telling me the truth, her behavior is that of someone who didn't want to be transparent in any case. So I have the trauma of the initial betrayal to contend with, along with the toxic gaslighting that was wrapped up in that -- along with the behavior after D-Day including up to last December. Remember even up until last December her instinct was to DARVO and accuse me of breaking up the family because of my insistence on a poly.


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos said:


> Or it won't and she won't share any additional detail. There's an additonal possibility that she's tragically told me the truth at this point but engaged in behaviors that did everything possible to send me the opposite message. Either way, it doesn't really matter at this point, because even if she's telling me the truth, her behavior is that of someone who didn't want to be transparent in any case. So I have the trauma of the initial betrayal to contend with, along with the toxic gaslighting that was wrapped up in that -- along with the behavior after D-Day including up to last December. Remember even up until last December her instinct was to DARVO and accuse me of breaking up the family because of my insistence on a poly.


Please don't take any of what I said to mean that you should "take her back." I think you are making the right decision. You are a saint (or, as you said, stubborn) to have stuck around for this long.


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> I actually kept it together until the kids were done and I had a stroke. I was such a fool. I actually could have died.


It was a false heart attack scare in January after the failed poly in December that finally sunk in for me. 

Of course, by then, I had been told I'd had a heart attack and was focused on learning what was wrong with my heart. I felt I need to focus on that above all else. As it turns out, nothing. No heart attack. Heart is just fine. However my BP is elevated and has been since DDAY. It took awhile to get all the tests and find out my heart was fine.

Regardless, it became abundantly clear to me in January that if I continued down the path I'm on, it would kill me. sooner rather than later. All of us who've mostly been through our 40s and approaching our 50s have no illusions about mortality -- but we don't want to die before we've enjoyed grandkids either. 

Right after I got the "all clear" in early March on my heart, and started walking and lifting weights again, the lockdowns hit. So my clarity of thinking about this was strong, but the timing was terrible. 

I elected to put things on hold. I decided several weeks ago, I'd waited long enough and I resurfaced on SI to say that. And now here I am. 

So now it's put one foot in front of the other until I'm free and clear.


----------



## Galabar01

It is interesting. I saw your recent posts (before mentioning that you were going to divorce). You seemed like someone who was out of infidelity, but I obviously thought you were still in it at the time. Now I get it...


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> It was a false heart attack scare in January after the failed poly in December that finally sunk in for me.
> 
> Of course, by then, I had been told I'd had a heart attack and was focused on learning what was wrong with my heart. I felt I need to focus on that above all else. As it turns out, nothing. No heart attack. Heart is just fine. However my BP is elevated and has been since DDAY. It took awhile to get all the tests and find out my heart was fine.
> 
> Regardless, it became abundantly clear to me in January that if I continued down the path I'm on, it would kill me. sooner rather than later. All of us who've mostly been through our 40s and approaching our 50s have no illusions about mortality -- but we don't want to die before we've enjoyed grandkids either.
> 
> Right after I got the "all clear" in early March on my heart, and started walking and lifting weights again, the lockdowns hit. So my clarity of thinking about this was strong, but the timing was terrible.
> 
> I elected to put things on hold. I decided several weeks ago, I'd waited long enough and I resurfaced on SI to say that. And now here I am.
> 
> So now it's put one foot in front of the other until I'm free and clear.


I really am proud of you. 

Nothing like almost dying to really wake you up. 

You are right, it is time for this to be over. 

I do what to warn you about a couple of things. 
1) Nice guys get screwed over, esp in a divorce. 
2) She may really try and come at you, love bomb you, tell you that the two of you can work it out.
3) after the about does not work, they get nasty, really really nasty. If you think her affair blew you away, just wait until you see them do this. It will really freak you out. 

Don't fall of any of the above crap, she had had 4 years to do the right thing, she is not going to do the right thing. 

Hell I would not really be surprised if she was still seeing him, or someone else, who really knows?

Stay strong...


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> 1) Nice guys get screwed over, esp in a divorce.
> 2) She may really try and come at you, love bomb you, tell you that the two of you can work it out.
> 3) after the about does not work, they get nasty, really really nasty. If you think her affair blew you away, just wait until you see them do this. It will really freak you out.


1. I know this, but I am hoping for a mediated decree. If we can do it amicably it would be so much easier on our family. 

Absent that, how else would I handle it? we have been discussing this on and off since December. If I file on her, it gets pretty nasty very fast that way. 

2. I'm prepared for this and know she will do it. This has been her pattern. 

3. I'm also prepared for this. I guess.

When I say I'm prepared I mean I'm emotionally prepared. I'm not tactically prepared. I don't know any other way to do this than to try for a de-escalated mediated process that is quick and clean. Who wouldn't want that?

Any thoughts advice on what I need to be doing to be tactically and strategically prepared for it to turn nasty?


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> Hell I would not really be surprised if she was still seeing him, or someone else, who really knows?


This is doubtful. Really, if you knew the situation you wouldn't think that. It's possible, but highly unlikely. I know plenty of betrayed spouses have been shocked and surprised when they found out the betrayal continued. But that doesn't happen all the time. Sometimes the so-called reconciliation attempt runs its course and the marriage dissolves.


----------



## Thumos

To be clear, I did not almost die. After continuing chest pains for a few weeks, I went into see my family doc and I was told after an EKG that I'd had a heart attack. Whatever was going on it was clear I was in bad shape. I did a stress test, CT scan and ultrasound with a cardiologist and he determined I had no heart attack at all and that was a false result from the EKG. However, he wants me to lose weight (working on it) and my BP has been elevated since D-Day (was never high before). I had nearly constant high BP and anxiety during the 6 weeks of her affair that I suspected and was doing detective work and it never really went back to normal. 

So while I didn't die, what the experience did do for me was to provide a "close enough" brush with death -- or the prospect of it -- to snap me out of my stupor.


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> 1. I know this, but I am hoping for a mediated decree. If we can do it amicably it would be so much easier on our family.
> 
> Absent that, how else would I handle it? we have been discussing this on and off since December. If I file on her, it gets pretty nasty very fast that way.
> 
> 2. I'm prepared for this and know she will do it. This has been her pattern.
> 
> 3. I'm also prepared for this. I guess.
> 
> When I say I'm prepared I mean I'm emotionally prepared. I'm not tactically prepared. I don't know any other way to do this than to try for a de-escalated mediated process that is quick and clean. Who wouldn't want that?
> 
> Any thoughts advice on what I need to be doing to be tactically and strategically prepared for it to turn nasty?


1) have you guys talked numbers yet??? Brother the odd, the overwhelming odds, are that it will get ugly. 

If it goes south, get hard and do it quick. That means being NOT NICE. It means going to trial, and even if you are in a no fault state, proving infidelity can have SOME affect on alimony and other things. 

Plus, if you got to trial she really gets publicly shamed, which is exactly what she deserves no matter what YOU think. 

She ****ed you over during the affair and for 4 years after, you need a decent/good deal or nuke her... 

3) No you are not prepared for it. But you need to try and be hard and strong, way stronger than you have been so far, no offense... 

Let me give you an example, the weekend before my ex was going to get her papers, she knew they were coming... She did everything she could do to get me to hit her, so she could use that in the divorce. She was in my face, the whole bit. I did not bite for a second. 

I just went to my Current GF's house and chilled. 

Be ready...


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> She did everything she could do to get me to hit her, so she could use that in the divorce. She was in my face, the whole bit. I did not bite for a second.


I have taken steps to address this piece but would prefer not to address it in this thread.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> To be clear, I did not almost die. After continuing chest pains for a few weeks, I went into see my family doc and I was told after an EKG that I'd had a heart attack. Whatever was going on it was clear I was in bad shape. I did a stress test, CT scan and ultrasound with a cardiologist and he determined I had no heart attack at all and that was a false result from the EKG. However, he wants me to lose weight (working on it) and my BP has been elevated since D-Day (was never high before). I had nearly constant high BP and anxiety during the 6 weeks of her affair that I suspected and was doing detective work and it never really went back to normal.
> 
> So while I didn't die, what the experience did do for me was to provide a "close enough" brush with death -- or the prospect of it -- to snap me out of my stupor.


What's she doing during all this? Is she in the room? I mean she had to know she is the cause of all this.


----------



## BluesPower

sokillme said:


> What's she doing during all this? Is she in the room? I mean she had to know she is the cause of all this.


Oh, she wanted to "take care of him" after she failed her poly that took 3 years to get her to take.

Mine, she came to the hospital wasted, I had to have her removed by security...


----------



## sokillme

> Mine, she came to the hospital wasted, I have to have her removed by security...


 - I just go back to what I always say - R is about some people working so hard for so little.

So I see on our little thread _*Newlifeisgreat *_spoke some truth. He writes like one of us. Are you on here dude?

Thurmos if you can you should list Adultery as the reason for the divorce. At least give the next guy ah heads up about what he is getting into. If he checks. I think I might, and if adultery was listed you can bet damn sure there would be a discussion about it.


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> Oh, she wanted to "take care of him" after she failed her poly that took 3 years to get her to take.


True. That's what she said. She also said her actions were the cause of it. To answer sokillme's question, she was with me at every appointment. She also pulled some strings with some of her clients to get me to the top of the list quickly with one of the top cardiologists in the area where we live. Otherwise I would have had to wait much longer to see him.

She also offered a post-nup agreement as a kind of "pre divorce settlement." But I never followed through on that bc I started to find out more and more that made me question how viable they are and enforceable where I live. The answer is, not very.

Someone said something really insightful during that time I was dealing with the heart scare. They said that "This limbo is continuing because Thumos is allowing it to happen, but at this point they are both watching the play from the puppeteer's pov (They just both pretend to not see the strings)."


----------



## RebuildingMe

BluesPower said:


> 1) have you guys talked numbers yet??? Brother the odd, the overwhelming odds, are that it will get ugly.
> 
> If it goes south, get hard and do it quick. That means being NOT NICE. It means going to trial, and even if you are in a no fault state, proving infidelity can have SOME affect on alimony and other things.
> 
> Plus, if you got to trial she really gets publicly shamed, which is exactly what she deserves no matter what YOU think.
> 
> She ****ed you over during the affair and for 4 years after, you need a decent/good deal or nuke her...
> 
> 3) No you are not prepared for it. But you need to try and be hard and strong, way stronger than you have been so far, no offense...
> 
> Let me give you an example, the weekend before my ex was going to get her papers, she knew they were coming... She did everything she could do to get me to hit her, so she could use that in the divorce. She was in my face, the whole bit. I did not bite for a second.
> 
> I just went to my Current GF's house and chilled.
> 
> Be ready...


My ex called the cops on me six times in three weeks trying to get me arrested and leave the house. She turned the entire marriage around to make herself, the cheater, appear to the the victim. Believe this T, the likelihood that your divorce is amicable is slim to none.


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> True. That's what she said. She also said her actions were the cause of it. To answer sokillme's question, she was with me at every appointment. She also pulled some strings with some of her clients to get me to the top of the list quickly with one of the top cardiologists in the area where we live. Otherwise I would have had to wait much longer to see him.
> 
> She also offered a post-nup agreement as a kind of "pre divorce settlement." But I never followed through on that bc I started to find out more and more that made me question how viable they are and enforceable where I live. The answer is, not very.
> 
> Someone said something really insightful during that time I was dealing with the heart scare. They said that "This limbo is continuing because Thumos is allowing it to happen, but at this point they are both watching the play from the puppeteer's pov (They just both pretend to not see the strings)."


T, I want you to think about this. 

How sick is your first paragraph. After, as far as she knew, she almost killed you with her affair, and her lying, the of course pulled strings to get you the to "Best" doc. 

THEN STILL lies to you to this very day. Four ****ing years... 

I think she wanted to save you so she could continue to torture you. 

My god that is just sick...


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> How sick is your first paragraph. After, as far as she knew, she almost killed you with her affair, and her lying, the of course pulled strings to get you the to "Best" doc.


I mean, I have thought about it. Do you think I'm in denial? I'm not. I'm just giving you the whole story. I'm kind of a "just the facts" person along with my own analysis, so if there's a relevant detail I think worth mentioning, I'm going to mention it. I can't help it, really. It's how I was trained professionally.


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> I think she wanted to save you so she could continue to torture you.
> 
> My god that is just sick...


I do know this person and you don't. I'm not in the business of defending her or white knighting for her. I also don't believe it serves my own or anyone else's interests in the situation to portray her in an unrealistic light as some Hollywood super villain right up there with Loki or something. You undermine your case with people like me when you do that.

Next you'll be telling me she's been harboring the Tesseract, and she's about to launch an attack across the Bifrost.

I mean, really.

Really.

No, really.

Look fellas, I am just not going to agree that every adulterer is an irredeemable person. First it's not what I believe. It's not what the ultimate Authority has to say on the matter. If I believed that I'd be someone else and you'd be talking to a different person. I don't think you'd like that alternate version of me.

It also doesn't mean I stay with her. Don't get confused. Let's keep the eye on the ball here. I don't have to hate her in order to healthily detach and move on. In fact, it's much better if I don't. I have no interest in being an angry, embittered man in my 50s. Sorry, I just don't. My God, do I want to end up like N over there at SI? Absolutely not.

It's also not what we say about all sorts of transgressions. And we have plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest that throughout human history lots of human beings have overcome their transgressions and are more than the sum of them. In fact, it's this simplistic logic of ascribing evil to everything and everyone that the rioters are using to tear down statues of our Founders. So I'd say knock it off.

Lastly, it's just absurd. It weakens your case and my case. It makes betrayeds look psychotic if we label basically half the population as irredeemable and ascribe motives to them that seem to come out of some novel or something. Yes, half the population. The best and more recent estimates of infidelity put it much closer to half of all relationships and marriage, meaning if you know two married couples, at least one of those four people is or is about to be an adulterer.

If you think all of those people in the human race are irredeemable psycho super villains, then we are all well and truly f***ed.

No, people are complex. You have no idea what her motives were in trying to get me in to see a cardiologist quickly, and neither do I. I'm not her sugar daddy. We earn about the same.

I can forgive and I can also move on. I can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I've read all sorts of horror stories about infidelity and there's a big spectrum. Oversimplifying does no one favors. There are some truly evil sociopaths carrying out adultery -- and there also some broken, screwed up people doing it.

So no, I don't believe my wife was carrying out a master plan to tie me up in a red room in a basement somewhere where she could keep torturing me for her reprisal as the Marquis de Sade.

I will push back hard if y'all go all cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs on me here like I've seen on other threads. I don't mind the 2x4's if they are realistic 2x4's, but let's keep it real.


----------



## Galabar01

BluesPower said:


> ...
> I think she wanted to save you so she could continue to torture you.
> ...


I think she wanted to save you because of why other cheaters do it -- to have her cake and eat it too, to monkey branch safely, maybe to assauge her regret, maybe because she really is remoresful. Who knows... She doesn't sound like an evil genius with a master plan. However, she also doesn't sound like wife material...


----------



## sokillme

First of all I was the one who introduced the Movie motif here and it's Star Wars on this thread.

Besides that for the purposes of this story you are the hero and she is the villain.

Now I never said she was irredeemable, though you got to try, she really isn't. I just don't think she is very nice person or a good wife. But that doesn't mean she can't change. Beside we all deserve second chances, it doesn't mean anyone should stay with a cheater though. To me in most cases the damage is too great. But again to each his own. 

I think you are the right track, indifference is the way to go, though pity may be better. 

Let's be honest, you wife is a ****.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> First of all I was the one who introduced the Movie motif here and it's Star Wars on this thread.


I can't stick with one franchise. You'll find I'm chock full of cinematic references


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I can't stick with one franchise. You'll find I'm chock full of cinematic references


End game was good. "On you left cap". Gives me goosebumps just writing it. How they made all those characters work is amazing.


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> I do know this person and you don't. I'm not in the business of defending her or white knighting for her. I also don't believe it serves my own or anyone else's interests in the situation to portray her in an unrealistic light as some Hollywood super villain right up there with Loki or something. You undermine your case with people like me when you do that.
> 
> Next you'll be telling me she's been harboring the Tesseract, and she's about to launch an attack across the Bifrost.
> 
> I mean, really.
> 
> Really.
> 
> No, really.
> 
> Look fellas, I am just not going to agree that every adulterer is an irredeemable person. First it's not what I believe. It's not what the ultimate Authority has to say on the matter. If I believed that I'd be someone else and you'd be talking to a different person. I don't think you'd like that alternate version of me.
> 
> It also doesn't mean I stay with her. Don't get confused. Let's keep the eye on the ball here. I don't have to hate her in order to healthily detach and move on. In fact, it's much better if I don't. I have no interest in being an angry, embittered man in my 50s. Sorry, I just don't. My God, do I want to end up like N over there at SI? Absolutely not.
> 
> It's also not what we say about all sorts of transgressions. And we have plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest that throughout human history lots of human beings have overcome their transgressions and are more than the sum of them. In fact, it's this simplistic logic of ascribing evil to everything and everyone that the rioters are using to tear down statues of our Founders. So I'd say knock it off.
> 
> Lastly, it's just absurd. It weakens your case and my case. It makes betrayeds look psychotic if we label basically half the population as irredeemable and ascribe motives to them that seem to come out of some novel or something. Yes, half the population. The best and more recent estimates of infidelity put it much closer to half of all relationships and marriage, meaning if you know two married couples, at least one of those four people is or is about to be an adulterer.
> 
> If you think all of those people in the human race are irredeemable psycho super villains, then we are all well and truly f***ed.
> 
> No, people are complex. You have no idea what her motives were in trying to get me in to see a cardiologist quickly, and neither do I. I'm not her sugar daddy. We earn about the same.
> 
> I can forgive and I can also move on. I can walk and chew gum at the same time.
> 
> I've read all sorts of horror stories about infidelity and there's a big spectrum. Oversimplifying does no one favors. There are some truly evil sociopaths carrying out adultery -- and there also some broken, screwed up people doing it.
> 
> So no, I don't believe my wife was carrying out a master plan to tie me up in a red room in a basement somewhere where she could keep torturing me for her reprisal as the Marquis de Sade.
> 
> I will push back hard if y'all go all cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs on me here like I've seen on other threads. I don't mind the 2x4's if they are realistic 2x4's, but let's keep it real.


Ok, your thread... 

Tell me this... if she is not so bad, why has she done this to you for 4 years? Could you answer me that? 

There is not any part of you that thinks what she has done is EVIL? Not a part?

I guess I will never understand why some people feel the way that do. 

I will leave you be. 

I really hope that you really stay strong and keep moving forward.


----------



## lucy999

Thumos said:


> Any thoughts advice on what I need to be doing to be tactically and strategically prepared for it to turn nasty?


Yes. Forgive me if I've missed it, but I saw early on here that you haven't even consulted with an attorney yet. If that's correct, I urge you to get appointments lined up now. Get that ball rolling. Do not delay, especially with the pandemic. In my state, the courts are just now opening up and that's only for emergency things like PFAs and child issues.

If it turns nasty, the lawyer will be ready. That's what you pay him/her for. Choose wisely. Get a pitbull of an attorney. You may think it's overkill, but I assure you, it's better to be prepared than not. We are talking about the rest of your life here. If you really want to cover your bases, consult with the big players in your area--even if you don't retain them, they can't represent your wife because it'd be a conflict of interest.

If you can get a mediator, fantastic. I'll readily admit I'm not a fan of mediation but my issues lie with more of the qualifications of some lukewarm mediators I've come across. You may be mandated to mediate first due to state court budget issues. That's how my state is, anyway.


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> she is not so bad, why has she done this to you for 4 years? Could you answer me that?


I didn’t say that. I said it was absurd to assume her support for me during the heart scare was part of some master plan to torture me


----------



## Thumos

lucy999 said:


> Yes. Forgive me if I've missed it, but I saw early on here that you haven't even consulted with an attorney yet. If that's correct, I urge you to get appointments lined up now. Get that ball rolling. Do not delay, especially with the pandemic. In my state, the courts are just now opening up and that's only for emergency things like PFAs and child issues.


See now this what I’m talking about. Tangible advice. I hadn’t thought about the backlog. And no I haven’t consulted yet


----------



## Nucking Futs

Thumos said:


> I didn’t say that. I said it was absurd to assume her support for me during the heart scare was part of some master plan to torture me


I don't think you should rule this out until you've checked the toilet for sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads. You have to be realistic here.


----------



## Thumos

I’m loving the movie references


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> There is not any part of you that thinks what she has done is EVIL? Not a part?


Of course it is evil. It is an evil act specifically prohibited in a simple set of ten rules of what to avoid.


----------



## Buffer

Morning Thumos
Sorry but I am Thor, nah just kidding being ex Navy Superman?
Can I ask how WW or STBX took the news that D is on the cards after the discussion the other day?
Did she think it was all beer and roses?

Buffer


----------



## Thumos

Buffer said:


> Can I ask how WW or STBX took the news that D is on the cards after the discussion the other day?


She’s sad. I haven’t seen any type of odd, hostile or off behavior. I know some WW’s act out in scary ways. But not all of them do. I guess only time will tell.
Also she’s under no illusions I’m happy or have been happy.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Thumos said:


> Not as stuck as my original thread at SI would imply (certainly I felt very stuck last year when I started it) - I’m not as much a reconciliation addict hopelessly puffing on the hopium, it’s just that I am a VERY stubborn man. Everyone who knows me says the same thing: intense, passionate, smart as hell, stubborn. So if there was a way to save my family I wanted to find it and leave no stone unturned. But of course I’d never been down this path and I didn’t know what to expect - who would, really? It’s uncharted territory unless you’ve been cheated on before.
> 
> All that is to say I’ve found the strength to leave. My greatest fear all along has been what happens to my kids. It’s very clear to me and to my WW that had it not been for our children, I would have separated without hesitation immediately in 2016. I didn’t, I thought I knew better, I thought I was stronger than men who leave with kids involved. I was wrong.


You sound a lot like me. I had to make sure I was leaving no stone unturned, give my ex way too many second chances, just because I am a thorough and stubborn kind of person. If my marriage was going to die, it wasn't going to be because I didn't try to save it with everything I had.

Unfortunately, marriage isn't some group project that can still succeed if one of the people has to do the bulk of the work while others goof off. Much like yours, my ex didn't bring much enthusiasm or effort to the project after being the one to completely sabotage it in the first place. Finally, I reached that point of knowing I had tried everything, but there was nothing salvageable left.

My two kids were very young at the time. My ex was around so little during the affair, and I ended up with majority custody and I kept the house, so nothing much changed in their lives. Now, they don't even remember a time when their parents were together.

I wish I had some suggestions for you about telling them gently. All I can think of is to make sure they understand, as you said, they didn't cause this, there is nothing they can do to fix it, and cheating is wrong and it kills marriages. But a key thing is to remember that this makes them feel like they have no control over a major event in their lives. They will want to know specifics, like where will they live, what having two homes will look like, what else has to change. Be prepared with answers: instead of telling them "I don't know" and increasing their feeling of instability, assure them that "you will take turns living with each of us, we will house-hunt together and find one we like, we will stay in this neighbourhood so you keep your friends and stay at the same school."


----------



## Thumos

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Much like yours, my ex didn't bring much enthusiasm or effort to the project after being the one to completely sabotage it in the first place.


You would have had to read my longer thread at SI to know this but the confounding thing about my WW to myself and a lot of people there is that she has upped her game in the wife department on every front — except for true transparency about the affair.

As some widely observed she’s doing everything she can to be the model wife going forward but still seemingly protecting the cocoon of intimacy around the affair itself by destroying texts and foot dragging on things like a timeline. Then she failed the poly.

It’s a strange dichotomy one doesn’t see very often. Usually if they are that focused on putting a shield of non transparency up that also plays out I their behavior going forward. They will tyoically be checked out and apathetic. It has not with my wife. she’s thought to be a very odd case by many — including many waywards who’ve worked on reconciliation. love bombing would account for some of her behavior if it weren’t consistent, but typically love bombing is very hard for a wayward to sustain for a long period of time if they are not feeling it genuinely.


----------



## Thumos

Hopeful Cynic said:


> you will take turns living with each of us, we will house-hunt together and find one we like, we will stay in this neighbourhood so you keep your friends and stay at the same school."


Great advice


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Thumos said:


> Or it won't and she won't share any additional detail. There's an additonal possibility that she's tragically told me the truth at this point but engaged in behaviors that did everything possible to send me the opposite message. Either way, it doesn't really matter at this point, because even if she's telling me the truth, her behavior is that of someone who didn't want to be transparent in any case. So I have the trauma of the initial betrayal to contend with, along with the toxic gaslighting that was wrapped up in that -- along with the behavior after D-Day including up to last December. Remember even up until last December her instinct was to DARVO and accuse me of breaking up the family because of my insistence on a poly.


I agree. What she has to say is irrelevant at this point. Whether it's finally truth or more manipulative lies now doesn't change anything about how she treated you for the past few years. Anyone capable of doing that is not a good person to stay married to. Your closure is not finding out the ultimate truth of what happened. Your closure is accepting that you can no longer trust her, and can't stay married to someone you can't trust.

I honestly don't think any marriage can be stronger after infidelity, except maybe if it's a single instance and the cheater comes clean immediately and never tries to be deceptive about it. How often does THAT happen? The deception and manipulation of the betrayal is far worse than the act of adultery itself.

The problem is that upon receiving a shock, like learning that your spouse cheated, our brains misfire. We spend time in limbo, baffled and confused, trying to relate reality with our false vision of reality. The five stages of grief completely apply, and the first one is disbelief. And cheaters WANT to keep us in that phase as long as possible. They work hard with more lies to do so. We all come out of disbelief at various rates, based on our individual personalities, how manipulative our cheaters are, our life circumstances, and the advice we stumble upon.

So, accept that you are proceeding at your own individualized pace, and be forgiving of yourself. So many of us look back and wonder why we took so long, but that's because the pain has receded so we now see clearly what we couldn't then. It's why we're quick with the advice; we hope to spare you some of the pain we experienced. But you can't skip steps.

Now, though, you can take those steps towards divorce. Consult attorneys. Find out the process. Number crunch settlement estimates. The role of emotions is finished. Now comes simple math.


----------



## Affaircare

@Thumos ,

#1 I still don't think of your STBXW as "a bad person." Okay sure she did some actions that were morally wrong, and she kept it up for years and to some degree continues to this day. That might make her a bad spouse (in that she's not that good at it), but a bad person. I don't know. More like a flawed person, I think. It sounds like she has some issues she could work through if she chose to do so--she just chooses not to do so. Yes, a person's actions do define them to a degree, but I guess I have compassion for her.

#2 It always amazes me when people here on TAM go off on these tangents that are build purely on guesses and steam. LOL Where does some of this stuff even come from? 

#3 You asked for suggestions. Here's my thoughts: 

Begin now to gather some necessary paperwork such as bank statements, house appraisal, property taxes (for the value of the house), and tax documents. In addition you may need stuff like birth certificates, marriage licenses and whatnot. Some of those you may be able to lay your hands on--others you may have to send away for a certified copy. So do that now. 

Begin to document. Right now you say stuff like "Well she did *_ for a couple months" to which all she'd have to say is "It was for one day!" and it would be "he said/she said" and not be provable in a court of law. Instead, buy a Daytimer type calendar and begin now to document what happened and on what dates--like as if they were appointments. Continue to document NOW when things come up relating to the divorce, such as "Discussed dividing the assets tonight" or "Agreed on 50/50 legal custody." If there is a fight, document what was the cause of the argument, if there was abuse or DARVO, and how it ended. Then if something comes up in court "she did __* for a couple months" you can turn in your Daytimer calendar as a document which is evidence in a court of law. Your point PROVEN!

Begin now to figure out how to split finances and bills. Like...take the joint account, split it 50/50, each open your own bank account, each redirect your paychecks to your accounts....she pays ABC, you pay XYZ bills. Maybe just start to sketch out how you'd like to start the ball rolling and then when the two of you start to talk, you'll have an idea already. 

Look up the divorce laws in your state and READ THEM YOURSELF. No one knows yourself, your situation and your case better than you do, so know the laws so you know how they might apply to you. Knowledge is power, and you can help your lawyer. If you don't know where to find them, I can give you a link. 

There ya go--some practical advice.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Thumos said:


> You would have had to read my longer thread at SI to know this but the confounding thing about my WW to myself and a lot of people there is that she has upped her game in the wife department on every front — except for true transparency about the affair.
> 
> As some widely observed she’s doing everything she can to be the model wife going forward but still seemingly protecting the cocoon of intimacy around the affair itself by destroying texts and foot dragging on things like a timeline. Then she failed the poly.
> 
> It’s a strange dichotomy one doesn’t see very often. Usually if they are that focused on putting a shield of non transparency up that also plays out I their behavior going forward. They will tyoically be checked out and apathetic. It has not with my wife. she’s thought to be a very odd case by many — including many waywards who’ve worked on reconciliation. love bombing would account for some of her behavior if it weren’t consistent, but typically love bombing is very hard for a wayward to sustain for a long period of time if they are not feeling it genuinely.


I don't mean the group project of "the marriage." I meant the group project of "affair recovery." She may have been a model wife for a normal marriage, but she was not doing ANY work towards repairing the marriage from the damage her cheating caused, and was in fact actively causing more damage with ongoing lies. The rest of her wife behaviour is irrelevant. The powerpoint deck might look amazing, but the data is made-up.

I can see how that must have been hard on you. It looked on the surface as though you had everything you could want in a wife. She just came with bonus lies and complete lack of understanding of the pain she caused. But think about it: her behaviour came from a place of selfishness, the same one that led to her cheating. She was the model wife in an attempt to convince you not to kick her out. She was the model wife so you'd feel like there was more reason to keep her than dump her. She was the model wife so she wouldn't have to be divorced. She was the model wife so you'd look like an idiot to your circle if you left her.

But honestly, someone capable of cheating does not truly love you, or perhaps even understand love at all. They might be convinced they do, but someone who loves you does not deliberately hurt you like that. It's more that they love how you make them feel, how much you bring to their life, how nice it is to have a second income, a second parent, a second opinion, a second set of hands around.


----------



## Thumos

Galabar01 said:


> She doesn't sound like an evil genius with a master plan. However, she also doesn't sound like wife material...


Really good way of putting it. You said in 2 sentences what it took me dozens to get around to


----------



## Thumos

Hopeful Cynic said:


> She may have been a model wife for a normal marriage, but she was not doing ANY work towards repairing the marriage from the damage her cheating caused, and was in fact actively causing more damage with ongoing lies. The rest of her wife behaviour is irrelevant. The powerpoint deck might look amazing, but the data is made-up.


Wise - very wise set of observations - And exactly why I ended up in painful limbo! Because the facts on the ground didn’t match up with all the “positive press” if you will. The headline didn’t match the story.

this is very helpful because you’ve hit the Nail on the head in terms of something I’ve been trying to articulate for a looooong time to myself and others. Why I’ve been so torn asunder and indecisive, yet feeling flat and crushed and angry and grief stricken. And in physical pain.

And frankly you may be right about our circle of friends. I’m reasonably confident I’m going to guest star as “the unforgiving husband.” This is the least of my worries tho. I do a lot of visualizing what this looks like, including picturing myself in a crappy apartment and driving a rust bucket. These visualizations don’t cause me fear / they make me feel free.

I can make new friends and my best friends aren’t couple friends anyhow. They are my friends.

I also know I bring so much into her life, way more than good things she’s brought into mine (aside from absolutely beautiful babies of course) - can’t thank her enough for that. I’m the bon vivant, the charmer, the intellectual, the storyteller, the gourmet cook, the masculine musclehead, the one who thinks of fun things to do and places to go, the initiator and dominator in the bedroom and more. I can bring all of that to another woman.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> She’s sad. I haven’t seen any type of odd, hostile or off behavior. I know some WW’s act out in scary ways. But not all of them do. I guess only time will tell.
> Also she’s under no illusions I’m happy or have been happy.


Honestly I don't these people care all that much, at last not like faithful people do. I mean they try to put in the effort but a part of her is probably relieved. I mean lets be honest if they really loved you or know how to love would they treat their BS like that? 

Again it's like you are a couch or a car, you are just an affectation to their life, but when that affectation gets to difficult to keep around it's time to move on to a new one. This is why hoping they will have some epiphany or beg to fix things it really just a fairy tail. They are just not that deep and they don't care that much. If they did they wouldn't do it in the first place.


----------



## oldtruck

Thumos said:


> You would have had to read my longer thread at SI to know this but the confounding thing about my WW to myself and a lot of people there is that she has upped her game in the wife department on every front — except for true transparency about the affair.
> 
> As some widely observed she’s doing everything she can to be the model wife going forward but still seemingly protecting the cocoon of intimacy around the affair itself by destroying texts and foot dragging on things like a timeline. Then she failed the poly.
> 
> It’s a strange dichotomy one doesn’t see very often. Usually if they are that focused on putting a shield of non transparency up that also plays out I their behavior going forward. They will tyoically be checked out and apathetic. It has not with my wife. she’s thought to be a very odd case by many — including many waywards who’ve worked on reconciliation. love bombing would account for some of her behavior if it weren’t consistent, but typically love bombing is very hard for a wayward to sustain for a long period of time if they are not feeling it genuinely.


your WW is doing everything to save her marriage and family.
however her fear of what would happen and the pain she would feel with
her telling you the whole affair story keeps her from telling you.
this fear is so great it paralyses from saying those words.


----------



## sokillme

So she is not really doing everything then. She is doing everything but being brave.


----------



## RebuildingMe

Thumos, you say your wife is not an evil person. That may be true. However, you will see her true side during the D. I’d be curious to see if your view on her changes during this process. I’m guessing it will, and not in a positive way. Be prepared.


----------



## Thumos

RebuildingMe said:


> Thumos, you say your wife is not an evil person. That may be true. However, you will see her true side during the D. I’d be curious to see if your view on her changes during this process. I’m guessing it will, and not in a positive way. Be prepared.


That’s a good point - only time will tell


----------



## Thumos

I just posted this in another forum and thought it was important for my own thought process here: 

Far too many people tend to misuse this passage, especially those who encourage rug-sweeping: "He said to them, ‘Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so’” 

The "hardness of the heart" phrase has often been misapplied toward the aggrieved and betrayed party in the marriage. In other words, people interpret it as "oh the betrayed spouse has a hardened heart so Jesus is allowing them to divorce, but he's doing it begrudgingly."

But what Jesus was actually talking about here in using the phrase "hardness of your hearts" was the general condition of brokenness of the world after the Fall, not exclusively or specifically the "hardness of the heart" of a betrayed husband or betrayed spouse.

He meant clearly that divorce is not only permissible in cases of infidelity but probably preferable -- grace extended to betrayed spouses when sin has torn asunder the marital union. This helps those who are victimized heal from the harmful effects of sin. 

Jesus is saying that if there were no condition of fallenness ("hardness of hearts") then relationships would not face adultery, and there would be no need for divorce ('from the beginning, it was not so").

John Calvin (and I am not a Calvinist) put it accurately and succinctly when he said, "as the wickedness of men could not be restrained in any other way, He (God) applied what was the most admissible remedy." 

That is to say, divorce in the cases of infidelity.

And by the way, from the perspective of a Christian, this is the case with most of human affairs. Imperfect remedies applied in a fallen world, but the best remedies available under the circumstances.


----------



## BluesPower

You are doing a good job on that thread BTW... Poor guy...


----------



## Thumos

Another item I posted elsewhere that is useful to think about: 

Julia Cameron is a writer who tries to help creative people get unstuck — and years ago, she came up with a list of qualities for identifying “crazymakers,” toxic people who bring you down, sap your life energy and keep you from being your best.
She wasn’t talking about adulterers per se but the list certainly applies. 

Ask yourself, in light of your WS’s affair, as well as the toxic behavior and lack of empathy most of us witnessed both during and after the affair, whether your WS meets many of these descriptions.

If they do, then you’re dealing with a crazymaker, full stop. Cameron’s advice is to essentially hard 180, grey rock and otherwise distance crazymakers from your life: 

“1. Crazymakers break deals and destroy schedules. They show up hours late for an appointment (if at all) and expect to be waited on hand and foot. They invite you out for lunch, order the most expensive thing on the menu and then expect you to foot the bill.

2. Crazymakers expect special treatment. They suffer a wide panoply of mysterious ailments that require care and attention whenever you have a deadline looming. The Crazymaker cooks her own special meal in a house full of hungry children – and does nothing to feed the kids. In fact, they care little for anyone else outside of themselves.

3. Crazymakers discount your reality. No matter how important your deadline or how critical your work trajectory at the moment, Crazymakers will violate your needs. Crazymakers are the people who call you at midnight or 6:00 am saying, “I know you asked me not to call you at this time, but…” or “I know you’re on a deadline” they say, “but this will only take a minute.” YOUR minute.

4. Crazymakers spend your time and money. If they borrow your car, they return it late with an empty tank. Their travel arrangements always cost you time and money. They demand to be met in the middle of your workday at an airport miles from town saying, “I didn’t bring money for a taxi”.

5. Crazymakers triangulate those they deal with. Because Crazymakers thrive on energy (your energy), they set people against one another in order to maintain their own position of power. From this position, they can feed most directly on the negative energies they stir up.

6. Crazymakers are expert blamers. Nothing that goes wrong is ever their fault.

7. Crazymakers create dramas-but seldom where they belong. They are often blocked creatives themselves. Witnessing others express their creativity makes them feel jealous and threatened. It makes them even more dramatic- at your expense. Devoted to their own agendas, Crazymakers impose this agenda on others. In other words, whatever matters to you becomes trivialized into a mere backdrop for the crazymakers’s personal plight.

8. Crazymakers hate schedules- except their own. In the hands of a Crazymaker, time is a primary tool for abuse. If you claim a certain block of time as your own, your crazymaker will find a way to fight you for that time, to mysteriously need things (meaning you) just when you need time alone to focus on the task at hand.

9. Crazymakers hate order. Chaos serves their purposes. When you begin to establish a space that serves you and your creativity, your Crazymaker will abruptly invade that space with their mess.

10. Crazymakers deny that they are Crazymakers. They will always try to convince you that YOU are the one that’s crazy.

11. Crazymakers drive you Crazy. (My #1. Rule is If it doesn’t feel good, don’t do it. If someone in your life is making you crazy run far away and fast…)”

Seems pretty straightforward right? 

Food for thought.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I just posted this in another forum and thought it was important for my own thought process here:
> 
> Far too many people tend to misuse this passage, especially those who encourage rug-sweeping: "He said to them, ‘Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so’”
> 
> The "hardness of the heart" phrase has often been misapplied toward the aggrieved and betrayed party in the marriage. In other words, people interpret it as "oh the betrayed spouse has a hardened heart so Jesus is allowing them to divorce, but he's doing it begrudgingly."
> 
> But what Jesus was actually talking about here in using the phrase "hardness of your hearts" was the general condition of brokenness of the world after the Fall, not exclusively or specifically the "hardness of the heart" of a betrayed husband or betrayed spouse.
> 
> He meant clearly that divorce is not only permissible in cases of infidelity but probably preferable -- grace extended to betrayed spouses when sin has torn asunder the marital union. This helps those who are victimized heal from the harmful effects of sin.
> 
> Jesus is saying that if there were no condition of fallenness ("hardness of hearts") then relationships would not face adultery, and there would be no need for divorce ('from the beginning, it was not so").
> 
> John Calvin (and I am not a Calvinist) put it accurately and succinctly when he said, "as the wickedness of men could not be restrained in any other way, He (God) applied what was the most admissible remedy."
> 
> That is to say, divorce in the cases of infidelity.
> 
> And by the way, from the perspective of a Christian, this is the case with most of human affairs. Imperfect remedies applied in a fallen world, but the best remedies available under the circumstances.


OK so to get religious for a sec.

This is good stuff but I personally don't think it's needed to be discussed because there is no context about infidelity in that verse at all. Remember when Jesus spoke those words if you committed infidelity you were supposed to be put to death. Which is why there is no context, under the conditions that they lived in, when that discussion was had there was no need to discuss infidelity and continuation of a marriage because it was just taken for granted that infidelity meant death. It's like having a discussion about what dinner you are going to have on Friday with an inmate who is going to be executed on Wednesday. What would be the point of even putting that in the discussion.

Hence the verse doesn't say anything about infidelity even though it is interpreted that way. I used to think why didn't it just say infidelity after all that is what everyone thinks. Also because it doesn't specifically say infidelity the _R at all cost _Christians use this as to justify their position (he never said infidelity is grounds for divorce specifically). Wrong, the reason it doesn't specifically say infidelity is because, like I said, in the context of the time you didn't get the choice to divorce someone for infidelity, they were put to death. You were widowed and free to move on, but you were not allowed to stay married. And don't give me this, well that wasn't always followed. A lot of the law wasn't always followed hell lots of the bible is God angry that the law wasn't followed. That didn't mean the law wasn't God's intention. The same yesterday, today and forever remember.

Now you can use the "first stone" scripture and story as a call to mercy, and understand that is what God wishes, and I agree. But not throwing the stone does not mean staying in a marriage. 

My feeling is the word is sexual immorality and not adultery because it's a much broader and simpler standard. This gives a much broader context and less restrictive reason for permissible divorce, because sexual immorality is a very very hard thing to live with in marriage. God knows this so just like he is merciful to those who commit adultery he is also merciful to people trapped in marriages where there is sexually abuse. Any kind of sexual sin, which I would include, porn use, withholding sex, marital rape. divorce is biblically justified. So of course that includes Adultery.

Look God is not a nice guy. He is a merciful and just Guy, but he ain't nice. 

The bible is very clear about how unwise to stay in a marriage where there is adultery, and all you have to do is look at the fact that for most of the time under the law God specifically and actively didn't give you a choice. He commanded that the marriage end in the most corporal way.

Now that is not your typical feel good message that your American church's like to sell.

Besides that staying with a cheater is mostly soul crushing and unhealthy. Period. You don't need the bible to tell you that.


----------



## Affaircare

@Thumos @sokillme

So while we are talking biblical thoughts, I'll share the one that absolutely drives me bonkers--when christians quote only part of Malachi 2:16 AND quote it out of context. They'll quote this part " “For I hate divorce,” says the Lord, the God of Israel" and then stop there, saying that God hates divorce. Well...He does. He'd prefer fidelity and commitment, but look at the context of that verse!
_
"This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the Lord with tears, with [your own] weeping and sighing, because the Lord no longer regards your offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. But you say, “Why [does He reject it]?” Because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously. Yet she is your marriage companion and the wife of your covenant [made by your vows]. But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit. And what did that one do while seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. “For I hate divorce,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “and him who covers his garment with wrong and violence,” says the Lord of hosts. “Therefore keep watch on your spirit, so that you do not deal treacherously [with your wife].”_

Big difference, huh? The whole portion is addressed to the priests of Israel who were dealing treacherously and putting off wives left and right...and then coming to the altar with fake crocodile tears! And the prophet tells them that the Lord rejects their fake show because He sees their hearts and how they deal with their families in private. He sees them making vows and breaking them, bringing pain and violence to the people the priest had promised to protect (his family)! The Lord HATES when people act like that--breaking vows, not guarding themselves against temptation, dealing treacherously, putting away the wife they made a promise to protect, breaking up their families. And He says "keep a watch on your own self so you don't act unfaithfully." He does not say "If your spouse treats you treacherously, I hate it when you divorce." I'd say, if anything, the message here in Malachi is that your words and your actions should match (your inner man and your outer man) and you should be FAITHFUL and honor promises, and protecting of those in your family. What the Lord hates is people who act one way in private, and then put on a big show in front of others. Don't just "act" honest in front of others--BE ACTUALLY HONEST!


----------



## Thumos

My other favorite that has been misused the past decade or so in evangelical circles is the example of Hosea’s wife. She was a ***** and serial cheater and Hosea was commanded To take her back time after time. This is often used by pastors as a beautiful story of forgiveness to pressure husbands to do likewise. The problem is that isn’t the point of the Biblical story at all. It wasn’t a pattern of behavior to emulate. The prophets were commanded to do any number of whacked out things (like stroll naked through a city) and no one tries to make a case to emulate them. Same thing here. This was God demonstrating how He was willing to take back an unfaithful people over and over. He wasn’t commanding all husbands to take back a cheating *****. But that is how it gets used today. I think it’s good for Christian men to be armed with this stuff so they don’t get blindsided. I see that the internet censors are editing out a word that is used in the Bible to describe prostitutes. I used the word bc that’s what the Scripture uses not because it’s a profanity; it certainly isn’t.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> My other favorite that has been misused the past decade or so in evangelical circles is the example of Hosea’s wife. She was a *** and serial cheater and Hosea was commanded To take her back time after time. This is often used by pastors as a beautiful story of forgiveness to pressure husbands to do likewise. The problem is that isn’t the point of the Biblical story at all. It wasn’t a pattern of behavior to emulate. The prophets were commanded to do any number of whacked out things (like stroll naked through a city) and no one tries to make a case to emulate them. Same thing here. This was God demonstrating how He was willing to take back an unfaithful people over and over. He wasn’t commanding all husbands to take back a cheating ***. But that is how it gets used today. I think it’s good for Christian men to be armed with this stuff so they don’t get blindsided. I see that the internet censors are editing out a word that is used in the Bible to describe prostitutes. I used the word bc that’s what the Scripture uses not because it’s a profanity; it certainly isn’t.


Yeah that was meant to be symbol of God's relationship with his people. It wasn't a life guide for marriage. 

Yeah I noticed today it even censors words in private messages. 

Crazy.


----------



## sokillme

Wrong thread


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

sokillme said:


> _*So she is not really doing everything then. She is doing everything but being brave.*_



She's doing DAMAGE CONTROL.

That's Job #1 for every cheater if they want to avoid being kicked out the front door (where they belong).


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Thumos said:


> “1. Crazymakers break deals and destroy schedules. They show up hours late for an appointment (if at all) and expect to be waited on hand and foot. They invite you out for lunch, order the most expensive thing on the menu and then expect you to foot the bill.
> 
> 2. Crazymakers expect special treatment. They suffer a wide panoply of mysterious ailments that require care and attention whenever you have a deadline looming. The Crazymaker cooks her own special meal in a house full of hungry children – and does nothing to feed the kids. In fact, they care little for anyone else outside of themselves.
> 
> 3. Crazymakers discount your reality. No matter how important your deadline or how critical your work trajectory at the moment, Crazymakers will violate your needs. Crazymakers are the people who call you at midnight or 6:00 am saying, “I know you asked me not to call you at this time, but…” or “I know you’re on a deadline” they say, “but this will only take a minute.” YOUR minute.
> 
> 4. Crazymakers spend your time and money. If they borrow your car, they return it late with an empty tank. Their travel arrangements always cost you time and money. They demand to be met in the middle of your workday at an airport miles from town saying, “I didn’t bring money for a taxi”.
> 
> 5. Crazymakers triangulate those they deal with. Because Crazymakers thrive on energy (your energy), they set people against one another in order to maintain their own position of power. From this position, they can feed most directly on the negative energies they stir up.
> 
> 6. Crazymakers are expert blamers. Nothing that goes wrong is ever their fault.
> 
> 7. Crazymakers create dramas-but seldom where they belong. They are often blocked creatives themselves. Witnessing others express their creativity makes them feel jealous and threatened. It makes them even more dramatic- at your expense. Devoted to their own agendas, Crazymakers impose this agenda on others. In other words, whatever matters to you becomes trivialized into a mere backdrop for the crazymakers’s personal plight.
> 
> 8. Crazymakers hate schedules- except their own. In the hands of a Crazymaker, time is a primary tool for abuse. If you claim a certain block of time as your own, your crazymaker will find a way to fight you for that time, to mysteriously need things (meaning you) just when you need time alone to focus on the task at hand.
> 
> 9. Crazymakers hate order. Chaos serves their purposes. When you begin to establish a space that serves you and your creativity, your Crazymaker will abruptly invade that space with their mess.
> 
> 10. Crazymakers deny that they are Crazymakers. They will always try to convince you that YOU are the one that’s crazy.
> 
> 11. Crazymakers drive you Crazy. (My #1. Rule is If it doesn’t feel good, don’t do it. If someone in your life is making you crazy run far away and fast…)”


I don't like her word crazymaker. Why not just say self-centred, selfish, or entitled? Then half the list could be condensed. It also has a lot of overlap with narcissism. I do like the idea of a list of behaviours to help people recognize such people better.

Like:

1) Anything that goes wrong is someone else's fault, not theirs. They blameshift.
2) They lack consideration for other people. They don't share. They are habitually late because they don't care about making people wait for them.
3) They take advantage of other people. They take the last cookie without offering it to anyone. They don't bring a contribution to a potluck but eat anyway. They borrow money and rarely pay it back. 
4) They are rude to service people (waitstaff, clerks, etc), especially over mistakes. They tip miserly, if at all.
5) They leave messes for other people to tidy up. They don't put their shopping cart away. They litter.
6) They expect other people to drop what they are doing and help them.
7) They lie easily if it gets them what they want.
8) If they do display generosity, it is for the admiration, or to make people feel indebted to them.
9) They prioritize their needs over others, even those they profess to love.
10) They treat those close to them (family, children, close friends) as accessories or possessions, not people.
11) They have no sense of reciprocity. If someone does them a favour, it is their due, not something that needs repaying.
12) To build themselves up, they tear others down instead of working on themselves.

Anyways, this is mostly off topic now, but I do take these lists and look back and realize that my ex hit many of these points, but I never realized it until the marriage was over. They are so good at charming you to not notice these things.

These realizations have definitely helped me fix my picker though, in the event of meeting someone new! I know there are good people out there, and hopefully I'll be able to recognize one. Thumos, you sound like a catch, so I'm sure, once you heal, you'll find someone of good character. Don't let the fear of being alone hold you stuck in limbo, because single life is so much better than being married to someone you can't trust, and other loyal, people are out there.


----------



## BruceBanner

BluesPower said:


> You are doing a good job on that thread BTW... Poor guy...


What thread are you talking about?


----------



## Thumos

She'sStillGotIt said:


> She's doing DAMAGE CONTROL.


Correct and I can see it


----------



## Thumos

Maybe TMI but here’s an epiphany. So I’m a man, obvs, and I like sex. A lot. I have a high drive. So when my WW initiates I’m not going to say no. She initiates all the time now.

so why am I bringing this up? Because today she told me in the morning she wanted to take a quick break in the afternoon to come home (I telecommute) to have an “afternoon delight.” She did so. We commenced. It all went down in less than 50 minutes (she works not far from our house).

what was the epiphany? it dawned on me right before she came home today that she would have easily been able to arrange for the same sort of breaks during her affair. I hadnt thought of it before bc normally our encounters are longer than that. And it is true that she has a tightly circumscribed schedule during the day with back to back all thru the day. But I didn’t have access to her schedule during the affair. And I realized how easy it would have been for her to arrange these same kinds of sessions with her AP during the affair.

She’s been able to convince me until now that there weren’t that many times for them to be together — and she’s not lying about this, so there is some built in “authenticity” to the claim — and so her “one time” sex story has held.

Until now. when I watched her arrange her day to squeeze it in.

I’m also no dummy so I don’t need lectures about p***y bombing. I know what’s going on.


----------



## Thumos

BruceBanner said:


> What thread are you talking about?


He’s talking about a thread on SI where some are trying to convince a betrayed husband rugsweep a two year affair and go back with his wife.

sorry we are crossing the streams here and we are messing with the TAM/SI space-time continuum. Someone had to do it!


----------



## Thumos

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Why not just say self-centred, selfish, or entitled?


I for one like the crazymaker frame bc of some childhood history but the point is well taken. I think it’s a good starting point for shaking people up and really getting them to identify that, yeah, their own cheating spouse probably hits on a lot of these


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> He’s talking about a thread on SI where some are trying to convince a betrayed husband rugsweep a two year affair and go back with his wife.
> 
> sorry we are crossing the streams here and we are messing with the TAM/SI space-time continuum. Someone had to do it!












Yeah, I already did it so I get the credit. (I am also spidey in that picture)


I wonder what your wife would say if you brought up the whole schedule thing? Sad thing is you will never know and even if she is telling the truth at this point it won't matter. Just thinking your wife could do that is so pathetic and tragic. The good news is one day you won't care.


----------



## Thumos

One day soon, hopefully.


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos said:


> ...
> Because today she told me in the morning she wanted to take a quick break in the afternoon to come home (I telecommute) to have an “afternoon delight.” She did so. We commenced. It all went down in less than 50 minutes (she works not far from our house).
> ...


Sounds like she's a pro at fitting in the "afternoon delight" into her schedule.

RickRoll


----------



## BruceBanner

Thumos said:


> He’s talking about a thread on SI where some are trying to convince a betrayed husband rugsweep a two year affair and go back with his wife.
> 
> sorry we are crossing the streams here and we are messing with the TAM/SI space-time continuum. Someone had to do it!


Do you have a link to this thread?


----------



## Tron

BruceBanner said:


> Do you have a link to this thread?











SurvivingInfidelity.com - General Forum


Surviving infidelity support forums for those affected by infidelity and cheating




www.survivinginfidelity.com


----------



## sokillme

Now it's time to send _*Maximusdecimus*_ over here.

He is getting some **** advice as usual. The biggest part of healing is choosing to heal. So typical. Biggest part of healing is cutting out the cancer.


----------



## faithfulman

@Thumos - did your wife show "afternoon delight" level of sexual interest in you prior to your finding out about her affair?

And I am not referring to the early days of your relationship, but in the years prior leading up to and the time coinciding with her affair.


----------



## Thumos

faithfulman said:


> did your wife show "afternoon delight" level of sexual interest in you prior to your finding out about her affair


Did we set up afternoon delight sessions before the affair? No. And not during the affair for sure. 

That said, both of us have healthy libidos, and there has been no DB in the marriage other than a few short-lived occasions. 

During the affair, I was getting not-quite starfish sex, but pretty close. She says that was because she felt guilty. 

She also invoked an in-home separation during the affair for about two weeks -- a time period when she had me convinced I had falsely accused her of having an inappropriate relationship with the OM.


----------



## faithfulman

Well, you know how those "Do men get to say they won't settle for 'less-than' levels of sex after the wife has given it away to another man" threads that we have both participated on?

Many participants coming from a female perspective have said no, you can't ask for "the good sex" as a requirement of reconciliation because it makes you a coercive rapist, others have said that no, you can't ask for the good sex, you should only get the sex that your wife "authentically" wants to give you, and so on.

I am of the opinion that after the affair, the betrayed man (or betrayed woman for that matter) gets to set whatever standard they want for the relationship to continue, across a whole host of behaviors and other matters, not the least of which is the kind, frequency, and quality of sex. Mind you, either party is at liberty to refuse!

But having said that, the "authenticity" angle does bother me in the real-life execution of sex and any other of the requirements.

If the partner is only stepping up because they have to, it has the potential to make the betrayed feel "less than" - and that applies to all of the requirements, like communication, honesty, etc.

But sex is "special" because it is one of the main things that is so personal and should not be shared outside of the relationship.

So, in my long-winded way of asking, does your new world of "afternoon delight" feel authentic to you? Is she only doing it to keep you hooked? Does it in any way assuage your hurt, other than the short endorphin-induced time period after coitus?

Do you feel that if she could opt out of the newer, more enthusiastic version of sex, that she would - is she only getting to this level with you because she knows that is what is expected/required?

***

I am putting this poorly, but you're an astute guy and I want to know how you feel about the authenticity of your "new wife".


----------



## BluesPower

faithfulman said:


> Well, you know how those "Do men get to say they won't settle for 'less-than' levels of sex after the wife has given it away to another man" threads that we have both participated on?
> 
> Many participants coming from a female perspective have said no, you can't ask for "the good sex" as a requirement of reconciliation because it makes you a coercive rapist, others have said that no, you can't ask for the good sex, you should only get the sex that your wife "authentically" wants to give you, and so on.
> 
> I am of the opinion that after the affair, the betrayed man (or betrayed woman for that matter) gets to set whatever standard they want for the relationship to continue, across a whole host of behaviors and other matters, not the least of which is the kind, frequency, and quality of sex. Mind you, either party is at liberty to refuse!
> 
> But having said that, the "authenticity" angle does bother me in the real-life execution of sex and any other of the requirements.
> 
> If the partner is only stepping up because they have to, it has the potential to make the betrayed feel "less than" - and that applies to all of the requirements, like communication, honesty, etc.
> 
> But sex is "special" because it is one of the main things that is so personal and should not be shared outside of the relationship.
> 
> So, in my long-winded way of asking, does your new world of "afternoon delight" feel authentic to you? Is she only doing it to keep you hooked? Does it in any way assuage your hurt, other than the short endorphin-induced time period after coitus?
> 
> Do you feel that if she could opt out of the newer, more enthusiastic version of sex, that she would - is she only getting to this level with you because she knows that is what is expected/required?
> 
> ***
> 
> I am putting this poorly, but you're an astute guy and I want to know how you feel about the authenticity of your "new wife".


Well you know that she lied about everything and failed a poly, right. 

So he is divorcing her, he says, so I don't know if it matters. It is an interesting question.


----------



## Thumos

faithfulman said:


> So, in my long-winded way of asking, does your new world of "afternoon delight" feel authentic to you? Is she only doing it to keep you hooked? Does it in any way assuage your hurt, other than the short endorphin-induced time period after coitus?
> 
> Do you feel that if she could opt out of the newer, more enthusiastic version of sex, that she would - is she only getting to this level with you because she knows that is what is expected/required?


It’s a complex set of questions I’ll try to answer as best as I can:

I think my WW’s libido is high and I think her physical desire for me is high. I am not being arrogant just realistic. We both look younger than our years and she is very tuned in for how often I get pings from younger women. This happens quite a bit. That “demonstrated value” probably drives her libido for me even more. I was getting these pings before the affair it’s just that I don’t think I really noticed them much. That’s one thing that has changed. Add to that she broke our pair bond and I think there’s mate guarding on her part in play here as well.

I don’t think this phenomenon is all that uncommon. One hears all the time about WW’s who are insanely jealous of the “exclusivity” of their husbands for themselves.

I think she is doing it to keep me hooked into her with brain chemical/hormonal high tied to her emotionally. Probably subconsciously seeking to repair the pair bond. I think she’s doing it for herself to satisfy her own physical desire for me and for release. And I think on another level she’s doing it for my pleasure. All three at once.

to answer your question about me: it helps and it doesn’t. It’s a temporary pain pill but it also comes with mind movies (tho not as much anymore). for instance yesterday I had this realization about her schedule and it almost killed the mood for me but I wanted it and forged ahead.

I don’t think she would opt out only bc I don’t think she can - not out of some obligation but bc I genuinely think she needs it. And she needs the whole thing from me. I don’t know why and I don’t know why this is, especially in the wake if being unfaithful to me in our own home.

The frequency is basically that of an open spigot. On demand. Whenever as long as I’m in the mood.

I realize that is incredibly complex. But it would be difficult I believe for her to sustain this level for more than 3 years if she was doing it out of a sense or obligation rather than her own desire. The consistency and frequency is there now for more than 1,000 days. That’s a pretty long time for someone if they feel it’s “what’s required” in my view.


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> It’s a complex set of questions I’ll try to answer as best as I can:
> 
> I think my WW’s libido is high and I think her physical desire for me is high. I am not being arrogant just realistic. We both look younger than our years and she is very tuned in for how often I get pings from younger women. This happens quite a bit. That “demonstrated value” probably drives her libido for me even more. I was getting these pings before the affair it’s just that I don’t think I really noticed them much. That’s one thing that has changed. Add to that she broke our pair bond and I think there’s mate guarding on her part in play here as well.
> 
> I think she is doing it to keep me hooked into her with brain chemical/hormonal high tied to her emotionally. Probably subconsciously seeking to repair the pair bond. I think she’s doing it for herself to satisfy her own physical desire for me and for release. And I think on another level she’s doing it for my pleasure. All three at once.
> 
> to answer your question about me: it helps and it doesn’t. It’s a temporary pain pill but it also comes with mind movies (tho not as much anymore). for instance yesterday I had this realization about her schedule and it almost killed the mood for me but I wanted it and forged ahead.
> 
> I don’t think she would opt out only bc I don’t think she can - not out of some obligation but bc I genuinely think she needs it. And she needs the whole thing from me. I realize that is incredibly complex. But it would be difficult I believe for her to sustain this level for more than 3 years if she was doing it out of a sense or obligation rather than her own desire.


That is kind of a good answer. 

What is strange is this. She seems to at least not mind having sex with you. Probably enjoys it a lot. So yeah, cool. 

Then why does she continue to lie to you, I mean how bad could what she is hiding really be? 

She knows that if she really wanted to be with you, and save her marriage... If she told you the truth, that you would probably work it out. 

I mean, you get that it does not make any sense, right? She already knows she is getting divorced and yet she still lies about all of it as far as I can tell.

It just makes no sense...


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> I mean, you get that it does not make any sense, right? She already knows she is getting divorced and yet she still lies about all of it as far as I can tell.
> 
> It just makes no sense...


That’s precisely why I’m confused and probably among a number of factors that has kept me in limbo. and that’s why I’ve said many people at SI are confounded by the situation as well. she has admitted that her words and behaviors Post DDAY only enhanced my suspicions but that now she’s told me everything and that if she made up a story about “more sex” it would be simply more lies and wouldn’t hold up to scrutiny bc it would not be true.

I’ve said before, there is a possibility that tragically she is now telling the truth.

I’m not saying our situation is “special” but in this regard it does seem unique and plays against type.

she may also fear if she tells me more we will be done. I’ve been all over the map on this with her. Sometimes I’ve said if she were still lying I would be done. Other times I’ve extended an olive branch and said if I get the whole story we can see what we have to work with.

lastly she there’s the possibility that she’s holding out bc the additonal truth is really toxic and would be a final dealbreaker. In that case it would serve her interests to die on that hill.

but I don’t know why she’d want to be with someone she can tell is steadily and more quickly than ever drifting away from her.


----------



## Thumos

Some of what we are doing here is what Chump Lady warns is an endless and fruitless chase - “untangling the skein of their f***edupedness” - speculating as to her whys gives me a real headache.

but I can tell based on my own experience is why I’m such a relentless and stern advocate for maintaining that infidelity mostly happens in good marriages. Adultery so often takes a good marriage that could have been great and turns it automatically into a bad marriage. The school of thought that maintains the marriage must have been bad I think misses some critical facts: half of all marriages end in divorce. Are we to say half of all marriages are bad? If so we’d be conceding that marriage is a fundamentally flawed institution and perhaps it is. But I think the more subtle take is that most of that 50 percent were good marriages that could have been better. And most of that 50 percent were breakups caused by infidelity. thus most infidelity happens in good marriages.


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> That’s precisely why I’m confused and probably among a number of factors that has kept me in limbo. and that’s why I’ve said many people at SI are confounded by the situation as well. she has admitted that her words and behaviors Post DDAY only enhanced my suspicions but that now she’s told me everything and that if she made up a story about “more sex” it would be simply more lies and wouldn’t hold up to scrutiny bc it would not be true.
> 
> I’ve said before, there is a possibility that tragically she is now telling the truth.
> 
> I’m not saying our situation is “special” but in this regard it does seem unique and plays against type.
> 
> she may also fear if she tells me more we will be done. I’ve been all over the map on this with her. Sometimes I’ve said if she were still lying I would be done. Other times I’ve extended an olive branch and said if I get the whole story we can see what we have to work with.
> 
> lastly she there’s the possibility that she’s holding out bc the additonal truth is really toxic and would be a final dealbreaker. In that case it would serve her interests to die on that hill.
> 
> but I don’t know why she’d want to be with someone she can tell is steadily and more quickly than ever drifting away from her.


Look, I have read most of your stuff. You and everyone here and there know, KNOW, that she is lying. 

I mean she failed a poly for goodness sakes. 

I don't by that unless there is some phycological thing going on that NO ONE can understand. 

So I think you can let yourself off the hook and get out of limbo. 

We all know that we cannot change other people. 

Oddly enough, my ex lied to me about something, knew that I knew she was lying and has never told the truth about it. 

So maybe it is not uncommon. Who really knows. I just hope that you stay strong and get out of this whole thing. 

I have to tell you that when this is over, life is good. My ex stopped bothering me the minute the deal was done. 

This part really seems off though...


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> Some of what we are doing here is what Chump Lady warns is an endless and fruitless chase - “untangling the skein of their f***edupedness” - speculating as to her whys gives me a real headache.
> 
> but I can tell based on my own experience is why I’m such a relentless and stern advocate for maintaining that infidelity mostly happens in good marriages. Adultery so often takes a good marriage that could have been great and turns it automatically into a bad marriage. The school of thought that maintains the marriage must have been bad I think misses some critical facts: half of all marriages end in divorce. Are we to say half of all marriages are bad? If so we’d be conceding that marriage is a fundamentally flawed institution and perhaps it is. But I think the more subtle take is that most of that 50 percent were good marriages that could have been better. And most of that 50 percent were breakups caused by infidelity. thus most infidelity happens in good marriages.


 I agree with this. The problem is that NO ONE knows the actual numbers and we may never. 

People lie about this stuff, the state of the marriage, infidelity, and a host of other things. So we really don't know what the REAL numbers are. 

Is it 1/2 or all marriages have infidelity? Is it that half of all marriages end in divorce? Is it half of all marriages that have infidelity end in divorce.

I have seen all the numbers thrown around, I just really wonder what they really are.


----------



## Thumos

It bothers me so much too, BluesPower. I wish I could get to the bottom of it — not out of spite but just so there’s not a lingering mystery. And better closure for us. Sadly I may just have to live with that.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> She also invoked an in-home separation during the affair for about two weeks -- a time period when she had me convinced I had falsely accused her of having an inappropriate relationship with the OM.


What a peach.


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> It bothers me so much too, BluesPower. I wish I could get to the bottom of it — not out of spite but just so there’s not a lingering mystery. And better closure for us. Sadly I may just have to live with that.


Sadly, I think she will, based on what we have seen, take it to the grave. 

And you may just have to live with that.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> It’s a complex set of questions I’ll try to answer as best as I can:
> 
> I think my WW’s libido is high and I think her physical desire for me is high. I am not being arrogant just realistic. We both look younger than our years and she is very tuned in for how often I get pings from younger women. This happens quite a bit. That “demonstrated value” probably drives her libido for me even more. I was getting these pings before the affair it’s just that I don’t think I really noticed them much. That’s one thing that has changed. Add to that she broke our pair bond and I think there’s mate guarding on her part in play here as well.


Or could it be that there is no real reason for you to be loyal to her, and she was not. People tend to project, and by all rights your marriage is now open.




Thumos said:


> I don’t think this phenomenon is all that uncommon. One hears all the time about WW’s who are insanely jealous of the “exclusivity” of their husbands for themselves.
> 
> I think she is doing it to keep me hooked into her with brain chemical/hormonal high tied to her emotionally. Probably subconsciously seeking to repair the pair bond. I think she’s doing it for herself to satisfy her own physical desire for me and for release. And I think on another level she’s doing it for my pleasure. All three at once.
> 
> to answer your question about me: it helps and it doesn’t. It’s a temporary pain pill but it also comes with mind movies (tho not as much anymore). for instance yesterday I had this realization about her schedule and it almost killed the mood for me but I wanted it and forged ahead.
> 
> I don’t think she would opt out only bc I don’t think she can - not out of some obligation but bc I genuinely think she needs it. And she needs the whole thing from me. I don’t know why and I don’t know why this is, especially in the wake if being unfaithful to me in our own home.
> 
> The frequency is basically that of an open spigot. On demand. Whenever as long as I’m in the mood.
> 
> I realize that is incredibly complex. But it would be difficult I believe for her to sustain this level for more than 3 years if she was doing it out of a sense or obligation rather than her own desire. The consistency and frequency is there now for more than 1,000 days. That’s a pretty long time for someone if they feel it’s “what’s required” in my view.



I think she knows you are leaving, or at least can sense it and is P-bombing you because she thinks that will make you change your mind. You say so yourself you are detaching, and you have had serious discussion about divorce.

Is it a real coincidence that she is now scheduling sex, (by the way assuming this was her MO doing the affair is a bet I would take). She is also writing you notes and generally being contrite?

A big confession is incoming as well. Read WaitedToLong's threads his wife did the same thing. 

I hope you don't fall for it. Your wife is duplicitous, and you still don't see it.

Just when there was a light at the end of your tunnel I see she is pulling you back in. 

Hopefully you got her in time and you don't waste a few more years.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> People tend to project, and by all rights your marriage is now open.


You mean you think she might still be carrying on outside the marriage?


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Just when there was a light at the end of your tunnel I see she is pulling you back in.


I don’t think so but we will see I guess. If you’re right and she’s willing to give me the truth, I’m not sure what harm opening a dialogue does. It would cut the gordian’s knot of all my confusion the last 3.5 years and that would be a very good thing indeed


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> I don’t think so but we will see I guess. If you’re right and she’s willing to give me the truth, I’m not sure what harm opening a dialogue does. It would cut the gordian’s knot of all my confusion the last 3.5 years and that would be a very good thing indeed


Well would it? 3.5 years. Would it really help?

And how would you know if it was the truth? Would you poly her again.

Her note she left, here is what I think, and I could be completely wrong: I think she thinks you will not divorce her.

And from her perspective she has not been served by you... I think she thinks she will keep her secrets, secrets with her OM, and you will accept it.

I get that you have talked to her, but she does not believe it...

I had this same type of thing with my ex. When it was done, she had the audacity to get pissed off because I was spending the weekends and the GF I had at the time...

I mean she was really pissed off. I have several stories like that. I just looked at her like she was crazy, well because she was...


----------



## oldtruck

Thumos said:


> Maybe TMI but here’s an epiphany. So I’m a man, obvs, and I like sex. A lot. I have a high drive. So when my WW initiates I’m not going to say no. She initiates all the time now.
> 
> so why am I bringing this up? Because today she told me in the morning she wanted to take a quick break in the afternoon to come home (I telecommute) to have an “afternoon delight.” She did so. We commenced. It all went down in less than 50 minutes (she works not far from our house).
> 
> what was the epiphany? it dawned on me right before she came home today that she would have easily been able to arrange for the same sort of breaks during her affair. I hadnt thought of it before bc normally our encounters are longer than that. And it is true that she has a tightly circumscribed schedule during the day with back to back all thru the day. But I didn’t have access to her schedule during the affair. And I realized how easy it would have been for her to arrange these same kinds of sessions with her AP during the affair.
> 
> She’s been able to convince me until now that there weren’t that many times for them to be together — and she’s not lying about this, so there is some built in “authenticity” to the claim — and so her “one time” sex story has held.
> 
> Until now. when I watched her arrange her day to squeeze it in.
> 
> I’m also no dummy so I don’t need lectures about p***y bombing. I know what’s going on.


this ability to schedule for sex needs to be discussed with your WW and her PA


----------



## sokillme

Dude for someone who post so much wisdom in other peoples thread, it crazy how you just don't see your wife. I guess you are too close.

Your wife likes sex, OK, and she likes it with you. Lots of people do, so if it takes having a lot of sex with you to get you to change your mind she will do it. She is no dummy and she is certainly worldly wise, she had an affair remember. This is no innocent Christian saint. She know how guys work. Sex has never been your problem, accept when she was ****ing someone else. 

I mean you are not seriously believing her sudden change of heart has anything to do with her love for you right?

Your wife is cold, calculated and selfish. Your problem is your wife has always picked herself to the point that as far as she knew you could have been dying and she still didn't tell you the truth. Didn't make a dent. 

The problem is your wife is never going to get the magnitude of what she did because of she incapable of it, something is off. As I keep saying you are a affectation to her life. 

I don't get it, it's like you refuse to see that you are done. Your posts in other thread say it. They know it. Staying with this women will kill you because it goes against everything you believe including about yourself. 

For the first time in years you have started to feel better, that is no coincidence, it's because you came here (enough with the BS that you had made up your mind). You are still posting on SI like you haven't. Nope you came here, and you started to get right. You started to detach and feel better. 

Then she P bombed you, wrote you a nice note an you are waffling. 

Do you really think this sudden change is because she found some compassion and love for you? Or is it because you are leaving?

One more time because I hope if will finally sink in. 

*As far as she knew you she wrecked you enough that you damaged your heart possibly killing you in the process and there was NO notes about telling the truth, and being open. No afternoon delights. Nope. None. Nada. Only now when your talks and your demeanor says you are done, when there is no denying that it's over. Only when she feels the point of least resistance is to tell the truth. When that is the option the hurts her the least, finally she start to change. *

And sadly you are still questioning if leaving is the right choice. 

Your problem is you are wasting time an you deserve better.


----------



## BluesPower

sokillme said:


> Dude for someone who post so much wisdom in other peoples thread, it crazy how you just don't see your wife. I guess you are too close.
> 
> Your wife likes sex, OK, and she likes it with you. Lots of people do, so if it takes having a lot of sex with you to get you to change your mind she will do it. She is no dummy and she is certainly worldly wise, she had an affair remember. This is no innocent Christian saint. She know how guys work. Sex has never been your problem, accept when she was ****ing someone else.
> 
> I mean you are not seriously believing her sudden change of heart has anything to do with her love for you right?
> 
> Your wife is cold, calculated and selfish. Your problem is your wife has always picked herself to the point that as far as she knew you could have been dying and she still didn't tell you the truth. Didn't make a dent.
> 
> The problem is your wife is never going to get the magnitude of what she did because of she incapable of it, something is off. As I keep saying you are a affectation to her life.
> 
> I don't get it, it's like you refuse to see that you are done. Your posts in other thread say it. They know it. Staying with this women will kill you because it goes against everything you believe including about yourself.
> 
> For the first time in years you have started to feel better, that is no coincidence, it's because you came here (enough with the BS that you had made up your mind). You are still posting on SI like you haven't. Nope you came here, and you started to get right. You started to detach and feel better.
> 
> Then she P bombed you, wrote you a nice note an you are waffling.
> 
> Do you really think this sudden change is because she found some compassion and love for you? Or is it because you are leaving?
> 
> One more time because I hope if will finally sink in.
> 
> *As far as she knew you she wrecked you enough that you damaged your heart possibly killing you in the process and there was NO notes about telling the truth, and being open. No afternoon delights. Nope. None. Nada. Only now when your talks and your demeanor says you are done, when there is no denying that it's over. Only when she feels the point of least resistance is to tell the truth. When that is the option the hurts her the least, finally she start to change. *
> 
> And sadly you are still questioning if leaving is the right choice.
> 
> Your problem is you are wasting time an you deserve better.


Come on SKM, even for me, I think this is too harsh. 

I think he knows that he waited too long to even do the POLY, and then she failed, and he STILL thinks well maybe she is telling the truth. 

He knows, I know he has doubts. 

Hey, right as I was filing, Ex asked for one more chance and I said yes. How stupid is that. I still cannot believe I did that. 

Let's hope he is getting there...


----------



## Thumos

oldtruck said:


> this ability to schedule for sex needs to be discussed with your WW and her PA


Could you elaborate? PA - not familiar with that acronym.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> You mean you think she might still be carrying on outside the marriage?


I think she knows you have every right to, and it worries her. Oh and don't mistakenly believe it's because she suddenly loves you so much and it would cause her pain to see you with another women. Nope she doesn't care she had sex with another man, this is not about fidelity. Sexual fidelity is not a sacred spiritual bond to her, it's about getting off. She proved it when she threw yours away like some old jacket. Stop making the mistake of projecting how you feel to how she does. 

Nope Like ever other decision she has made since the affair this is purely a case of staying in control of her resources. Her life is built around you, she is older and divorce is going to suck, much more for her then you. She needs to keep you because change is hard, it was for you when she cheated. You had no choice in it. It will be for her if you divorce her, the difference is you have honor enough to give her warning. 

You don't need to know how many times or what she did if you start to believe who she is. It won't matter anymore because you will accept it doesn't matter 100 times or 10, the potential for 100 was there even if it was 10. This is one of those things where you think if you only understand you will be free. Nope your only freedom is in loving someone else. Trust me on this.

It took you a while but you came to the conclusion that "she did it because she could and she wanted to". Same with this, it's not what she did but who she is. The issue has always really been about her nature, and the potential that that nature brings.


----------



## sokillme

BluesPower said:


> Come on SKM, even for me, I think this is too harsh.
> 
> I think he knows that he waited too long to even do the POLY, and then she failed, and he STILL thinks well maybe she is telling the truth.
> 
> He knows, I know he has doubts.
> 
> Hey, right as I was filing, Ex asked for one more chance and I said yes. How stupid is that. I still cannot believe I did that.
> 
> Let's hope he is getting there...


Go read his post on SI. Dudes waffling. 

It's sad to watch. He was so close.


----------



## sokillme

His wife is doing the base minimum that all WS do when the end is near, and it seems he is falling for it.

I care about this dude. I called him here, I'm ****ing emotionally invested. And he is going to waste more time.


----------



## Thumos

Okay fellas, let's straigthen a few things out:

1. Doubts? Of course! I think that's obvious, and I'm all about being transparent. Of course I have doubts. That's why I landed in limbo for 3.5 years. All I can tell you is I FEEL I have more clarity on this than ever before. And you wonderful people are responsible for that, yes, you were a MAJOR catalyst, although I was already on that trajectory. You can look at that first new post in July on my SI thread and know I was already headed in this direction.

2. The truth? Of course I don't think she's telling the truth, now come on. It's just the way I've been trained professionally, I can't help but examine all angles and offer them up as possibilities. Is it possible she's telling the truth? Yes. Is it probable? No. Know the difference in my line of thinking. Now, that said, I'll be honest that I get very firm on feeling she is NOT telling the truth and then I come on sites like this and I'm asked why she is such a puzzle wrapped in an enigma, and that makes me doubt if I really know what the hell is going on here. But most days most of the day if you quizzed me, I'd say yeah she's lying because w, x, y, z and so on.

3. Will it help to know more? Yeah, I don't know. Maybe. Probably. I hope. You're asking a guy who's in the thick fog of confusion and pain to speculate on stuff that hasn't happened yet. Hypotheticals stacked on top of more hypotheticals. Anyway, I think it will help. Would that be the end of the story? If there was more and she said that's it, I think I would let it go at that. Because that would be at that juncture just continuing to pull on a never-ending strand.

4. Sokillme, do you really think I'm all that confused at this point? I'm not. I'm not ready to divorce her tomorrow, I think I've already made that clear, but I am ready to divorce her. I've talked to other people in person that I trust about it. I have high hopes for an amicable divorce, although people here at TAM are warning me to be careful about her getting nasty. I get it. I have made that clear here too. I don't know what else to do at this stage. Opening a dialogue with her doesn't seem fraught with peril for me. I know how I feel. Are you worried she's a necromancer or something and that by talking to her more, I'll be hypnotized? I mean, I suppose it could happen.

5. Waffling. No. I wanted to share that note she sent on my other SI thread bc I wanted to get some crowdsourced reaction of the sort that AHGuy just got on his WW's note. It helps to have other people weigh in bc they can see what I can't see. Get it? I can share it here, too, if y'all want.

6. Afternoon delight? You realize this was the source of another epiphany for why she is lying right? So whatever you fear might have been the outcome, it just made me doubt her more. That's why I wrote about that epiphany here, because I was like "Oh crap. This was pretty easy for her to arrange, it was fast, it was smooth for her to fit into her tight schedule, and she's telling me nothing like this happened in the affair? And I'm supposed to believe that now?" So it had the opposite impact for what I suppose she intended (although give the girl some credit, she did also just want to get her rocks off).

7. Waited to long? Abso-frickin-lutely! It's been the source of so much self recrimination I can't even tell you! That it took me 3 years to finally put my foot down and demand she write something down on a stupid piece of paper? That I demanded a polygraph and she would only do so on the point of me walking out right then and there? How do you think I feel about all of that? It's like being in a psy-op.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Go read his post on SI. Dudes waffling.
> 
> It's sad to watch. He was so close.


Nope. What I said there is what I said here. We've had a lengthy discussion about divorce. She reacted with the note I posted. I wanted reaction to it. 

But I have to tell you you guys are scaring me a little bit and I feel in over my head. My plan the past several months was to work on paying down our debt to get free and clear and then work out a mediated divorce with 50/50 custody of our youngest and otherwise split assets straight down the middle. She makes the same (and maybe more this year) than me, so alimony should not be an issue. Our oldest is 18 so now an adult. 

Now I feel like you guys are telling me I need to be ready to go to war. They're saying the same thing over there. Are there not examples where this far out from DDay when things have slowed way down that an amicable divorce can be had? 

Is that not a noble goal? Is that not an attainable goal? I'm feeling kinda desperate about that. I do not want a nasty divorce that traumatizes my kids.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> Stop making the mistake of projecting how you feel to how she does.


Holy crap. I feel pretty stupid that this hasn't occurred to me before. I'm totally serious.

Someone else on another thread on TAM said something about that I was projecting and now I think this is what they were talking about.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> I care about this dude. I called him her, I'm ****ing emotionally invested. And he is going to waste more time.


Now come on. How am I wasting more time? You know I can't pull the trigger on this tomorrow.


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos said:


> ...
> During the affair, I was getting not-quite starfish sex, but pretty close. She says that was because she felt guilty.
> ...


Guilty that she was cheating on you or guilty that she was cheating on the AP?


----------



## Thumos

Galabar01 said:


> Guilty that she was cheating on you or guilty that she was cheating on the AP?


Yeah, I have never been able to get a clear answer on that. I told her point blank she was doing it bc she was being loyal to AP, but she denied it. She said she felt guilt she was cheating on me.


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos, I think I missed this -- how did your wife explain the polygraph failure? What was the fallout from that?


----------



## faithfulman

sokillme said:


> Or could it be that there is no real reason for you to be loyal to her, and she was not. People tend to project, and by all rights your marriage is now open.





Thumos said:


> You mean you think she might still be carrying on outside the marriage?


No, I think what Sokillme is saying, and if he is saying what I think he is, I agree with it.

Even though it is outside of SI orthodoxy, the way I feel is: "Once a tree is cut down, it is cut down. You can't cut down a tree twice."

When your wife screwed another man etc. she cut down the tree of your marriage. She broke the vow. If you decided to have a relationship with another woman, it is not a "revenge affair" it's that the tree of your marriage has been cut down. The contract is broken.

If you decide to reconcile, then have an affair to mess your wife over, it's a revenge affair and definitely wrong.

But philosophically I think that once someone has cheated on their partner - what do they think will happen? The marriage will go back to the same strong tree? Stronger? No! They cut down the tree! The tree is weak! A strong breeze might break it again.

That is why I think cheating is usually the end of the road, whether or not the couple stays together. The tree is cut down.


----------



## Galabar01

I agree with BluesPower -- she doesn't think you'll divorce her. She is not forthcoming with the truth because she thinks it isn't necessary.

You need to make it necessary. If you had served divorce papers 3.5 years ago, if you serve divorce papers now, she will finally have an incentive to tell you everything.

This has gone on for years. Why would she think you are serious now? Show her you are serious. File those papers. They can always be pulled back at some point in the future.


----------



## Thumos

Galabar01 said:


> Thumos, I think I missed this -- how did your wife explain the polygraph failure? What was the fallout from that?


Oh man, that is quite the sh*tshow. First, you have to know that my WW does in fact suffer from generalized anxiety disorder. This has been diagnosed in the past. But she's never been on medication for it - not severe enough. 

Throughout the fall of last year she promised to do a polygraph after giving me a timeline. She dragged out this promise. And by November, I'd had enough and texted her one day to say I was scheduling it. As a result, she had a panic attack and went to the ER. I was actually on the phone with the poly examiner scheduling the poly when my MIL texted me to tell me she was taking my WW to the ER. Now, the odd detail about this is that they took her to an ER 30 minutes away from where she was at the time of the panic attack. Read into that what you will.

That night, she was on some light sedative and I told her I would still be scheduling the poly. She blew up at me and said "you're going to blow up our marriage over this?" I answered, "no you already did that, I'm just trying to see if there's anything to salvage." 

My take is that my wife did in fact suffer a legitimate panic attack. But it was because she knew she was going to fail the poly and she knew she was lying to me and it was all crashing in. And conveniently the panic attack provided her with a pretext for failing the poly. 

She did the poly. She failed. Definitive fail. 90 percent chance. The examiner said he had not seen such a clear result in some time.

The morning after the failed poly -- on Christmas Eve -- early in the morning my wife woke me and we talked. I was very blunt with her and cold and told her she was a liar (actually iI quietly said "f'ing liar") and that I didn't feel I could reconcile with her until our unless she decided to be truthful. During this conversation she, as many predicted, tried to lay the failure at the feet of her anxiety. 

She also herself floated the idea of taking the poly a second time. Later in the afternoon, I called her bluff, and said I'd take her up on that offer but I would only give her two weeks to move forward with a second poly with a new examiner. I'd even let her pick the examiner. She got a deer in the headlights look and suddenly backpedaled away from the idea, after bringing it up herself earlier in the day.

After that, something in me really snapped, died, whatever. It was never the same. I was ready to go to an attorney and then I found out I'd had a heart attack a short time later (that turned out not to be true; my heart is fine, thankfully). But obviously the stress of the entire thing just sent me over the edge physically.

Getting through all the heart tests took more than two months and then pandemic lockdowns started. With the end of the world and all that, I decided it was a sh*tty time to spring divorce on my kids and I decided to put everything on hold. 

And now here we are.


----------



## sokillme

My friend think about what happened in the last few days with her, and pretend it's not you, what would you say to someone who posted what you did on SI? Given your history? She had 4 years, and a death scare to write you that letter. Hell a good person writes that letter as soon as the hormones die down from that affair, when they realize the damage they did to someone they love.

It took you being done for her to get off her ass and do it. 

You are comparing your wife to Hikingout, a women who has consistently posted every day on SI trying to warn of the dangers of Adultery, continuously says how humiliated she is by what she did. I believe Hikingout means what she wrote you over there, but all evidence points to the fact that your wife is nothing like her, unfortunately.

Your wife has had four years, and up until a year ago was down right hostile to you, trying to bully you and shame you for wanting to divorce her, after she **** some dude in your living room. She tried to shame you! She is nothing like Hikingout,

This is not - my God what have I done to the one I love what do I do to fix it. It's - My God he doesn't love me anymore what do I need to do to make him stay. 

Besides - Know ones self. Look how you post, you are never going to have a happy life with this women. It's just not going to happen. 

You are wasting time. 

If you want to have some afternoon delight I say go for it have fun. But think like your wife for once, she deserves it. Take your emotion out of it. It's a fling, it means nothing. It's only sex it means nothing. Let her catch fellings, maybe it will bread some empathy in her. Enjoy it and then leave.


----------



## Thumos

faithfulman said:


> When your wife screwed another man etc. she cut down the tree of your marriage. She broke the vow. If you decided to have a relationship with another woman, it is not a "revenge affair" it's that the tree of your marriage has been cut down. The contract is broken.


This is precisely how I feel and almost exactly how I've described it. I am a traditionalist. She is my one and only. I was never an incel and had plenty of casual date type girlfriends in college. Just no sex. Being a traditional old school man was important to me. My vows were incredibly important to me. 

[SIDENOTE By way of explanation: I have always been a traditionalist from a young age, and I realize this makes me kind of a freaky counterculturalist. In some ways, especially after my wife's infidelity, I feel pretty foolish about it. But I became a Reagan Republican at age 10 when he was elected (when I was 9 I was watching Nightline and growing increasingly frustrated by the Iran Hostage Crisis and wondering why Jimmy Carter was dithering). My family were all Roosevelt Democrats. They thought I was weird. 😂]

Anyway, I have told her she already divorced me when she decided to step outside our marriage.


----------



## Galabar01

Thanks for the details. Yeah, again, it just seems like she won't tell you the truth unless she has to. I don't want to repeat myself, but maybe it needs to be repeated -- you'll only (maybe) get the truth if you file for divorce. I really don't see any other way with her.

...and I'm sorry about your situation.


----------



## faithfulman

Thumos said:


> This is precisely how I feel and almost exactly how I've described it. I am a traditionalist. She is my one and only. I was never an incel and had plenty of casual date type girlfriends in college. Just no sex. Being a traditional old school man was important to me. My vows were incredibly important to me.
> 
> [SIDENOTE By way of explanation: I have always been a traditionalist from a young age, and I realize this makes me kind of a freaky counterculturalist. In some ways, especially after my wife's infidelity, I feel pretty foolish about it. But I became a Reagan Republican at age 10 when he was elected (when I was 9 I was watching Nightline and growing increasingly frustrated by the Iran Hostage Crisis and wondering why Jimmy Carter was dithering). My family were all Roosevelt Democrats. They thought I was weird. 😂]
> 
> Anyway, I have told her she already divorced me when she decided to step outside our marriage.


Well bud, we are close in age. I am definitely not a Reagan Republican, and I am not religious at all. Most people don't think of me as a traditionalist.

But I place extreme value on loyalty, trust, character, and morals. I don't think these come from a book (though it may offer guidance), I think you need to know right from wrong from your own heart, soul, and spine.

I think religion and politics divide us on the TV, but when I meet people in real life all across America I vibe with others who are like me in that we have a moral code we try to live by even though our codes may not be exactly the same.

Anyway, once you cut down the tree, the tree is cut down!


----------



## Thumos

Galabar01 said:


> This has gone on for years. Why would she think you are serious now? Show her you are serious. File those papers. They can always be pulled back at some point in the future.


ok but I'm getting contradictory advice here. Several people on this thread told me to go ahead and lay down some bread crumbs leading up to divorce, especially rather than springing it on my kids one fine day. They said that would be traumatic which I want to avoid. My youngest has NO IDEA this is coming. None. 

In fact, it was explicitly said that I would be best to prepare my youngest. How do you guys think that works? I talk to my youngest and swear him to secrecy or something, let him carry that around until I'm ready to file? No. The only that works is if I'm honest with my WW too. You think she hasn't known this is coming? We talked about it in December. We walked about it least four times over the past six months. I wasn't going to do it when the lockdowns were happening. No way.


----------



## Livvie

Breadcrumbs bad idea. Just when you do pull the trigger on the divorce, tell him right away.


----------



## sokillme

Look I want to say it again because it's really important that you get this. 

You are never ever going to know what she did. No matter what she tells you she is a proven liar and has hid the truth for years even when she thought it was killing you. You would be foolish to believe her. 

The only way for that not to drive you crazy is to understand it from who she is. Meaning she may have done it 100 times or 10 times. The amount of times doesn't matter, it's the fact that she did it whenever she wanted, so on one day she may have done it 5 and on the other 0. Do you get what I am saying?

Once is enough, you don't need to know the details, the thing that destroyed your marriage when you really get down to it is NOT the sex in the living room, or the type of sex that they had that you didn't. It's that the person who professed to love, cherish, honor and to protect you threw all that away to have sex with someone else at all.

See what I am getting at, whether they did it 100 times or 10 is really all about opportunity. So assume when they had the opportunity they did it, because that is what people do when they are in the early parts of an exciting relationship. And just knowing that **** is enough. **** that and **** them.

That is the basic truth, just like_ - they did it because they want to and can_. They do it as many times as opportunity gave them, that is really all you need to know.


----------



## Galabar01

Who is recommending breadcrumbs rather than filing? Even over in SI, they generally recommend filing right away to put the fear of God into the WS.


----------



## Thumos

Galabar01 said:


> Who is recommending breadcrumbs rather than filing? Even over in SI, they generally recommend filing right away to put the fear of God into the WS.


I don't know if breadcrumbs is the right word, but I had the impression from several posters a few pages back that I would be wise to walk up to this a little bit with my youngest. That and I'm not ready to do it. I haven't met with an attorney at all, and I have been focused on paying down our debt. It's important to me that this debt be paid off. I don't want it lingering after divorce for either one of us.

So until that is done, why would I go out and preemptively file? And why would I do that if she and I have discussed a mediated divorce? Wouldn't it be better to ask her to go with me to meet a mediator for a preliminary meeting? 

I mean, look, I really have no clue how this works. I've been married one time in my life and I never familiarized myself with divorce laws. I didn't think I would ever need to.


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos said:


> I don't know if breadcrumbs is the right word, ...


I see where you are coming from. However, I think the "shock and awe" of a divorce filing might be what you need. As for debt, there is no reason why that can't be included in the divorce settlement. That shouldn't be a reason to delay anything.

My advice would be to move forward and get out of limbo. I don't think the soft path through mediation is going to get your wife to open up. There is a small chance you get the truth with papers being laid in front of her. I think there is a 0% chance with mediation (you are just going to boil the frog (your wife)).

Also, I think you can still (eventually) go the mediated route, even if you file divorce papers. I think it is worth a shot. It is maybe your only shot to get the truth...


----------



## Thumos

Galabar01 said:


> Also, I think you can still (eventually) go the mediated route, even if you file divorce papers. I think it is worth a shot. It is maybe your only shot to get the truth...


That's another question to add to my list for a mtg with atty.


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos said:


> That's another question to add to my list for a mtg with atty.


Yes, get that initial consultation done ASAP. Find out your options. We idiots on the Internet may not be giving you the best legal advice... 

I think, after that first meeting with an attorney, things will seem less "scary" and you'll have a much better idea of how to proceed.


----------



## Thumos

I'm also going to ask about a therapeutic separation agreement, which would then give us an egg timer for when a mediated settlement would be finalized. My understanding is it is or can be legally binding if the spouses agree, but is different from a trial separation -- and allows the betrayed to move out of the home without giving up property rights etc. It also prevent wayward from filing for D preemptively or at least that would be my hope based on what others here have warned about WW's going ballistic. 

The home has been a nightmare trigger for me these 3.5 years. Normally, the wayward would move out of the home, but in the case where the betrayal happened in the home, it is recommended for the betrayed to be out and away. This would be a relief and a sojourn for me while the rest of the details then could be worked out. 

My final thought is that a therapeutic separation could be framed somewhat differently for the kids and allow us to walk up to the idea of divorce without the shock and awe approach. 

I think the time for shock and awe has passed, frankly. If I was going to do that, it should have happened in early 2017.

I would also think this type of therapeutic separation would protect me from the false DV scenario we always hear about, since I wouldn't be in the home. 

I don't know if anyone has any thoughts on this or has heard of one.


----------



## Galabar01

If you feel that you have made up your mind and you don't need the truth, this sounds like a very reasonable approach. If you are convinced that you need a divorce, this might be the best way. If you still want to try to save things and get the truth, shock and awe might still work. However, now that I think about it, and if I were you, just heading into that good-morrow as easily as possible might be for the best.

That being said, make sure you get 100% of what is coming to you in the divorce. Don't give away anything to appease your wife. You don't need to be screwed over again. She doesn't deserve anything from you besides the minimum that the state mandates (and maybe less than that if you can get away with it).


----------



## sokillme

I hope your posts here reflect your attitude more then your post there, at least in your own threads.

So I am generally good about this stuff so lets see if I can predict this one.

In the next week or so you are going to get some really painful truth I suspect. Be ready. Continue to detach. Like someone else said on the other thread, this will be her last Hail Mary. I suspect you may even be in shock afterwards. Don't allow that to change your mind.

Whatever she did, it is a reflection of her character and not you. Don't let her get your hopes up by now suddenly giving a ****. She is giving a **** because it's her last chance.

Remember if you hadn't forced her hand a year ago she would still be saying to you - "you gonna break up our marriage for this?"

Translation.

"You gonna end our marriage just because I ****ed your friend, my son's friends father in our living room of the house we raised our children in?"

I mean can you imagine the coldness of such a statement? That right their is the window into her soul. That's not, "it's too painful to talk about" or even "I don't remember", that is quit bothering me with this trivial **** can't we just get on with our lives. And it's years after the fact when she had time to really sit with what she did and feel remorse an shame.

Affectation



> an effort to appear to have a quality not really or fully possessed; the pretense of actual possession: an affectation of interest in art; affectation of great wealth.
> conspicuous artificiality of manner or appearance; effort to attract notice by pretense, assumption, or any assumed peculiarity.
> a trait, action, or expression characterized by such artificiality: a man of a thousand affectations.


Unfortunately this is best describes how WS see their partners or anyone else really besides themselves. It's more about pretenses then reality. It's how you can do such a thing and without shame try to bully your spouse into accepting it 3 years later.

Be warned.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Thumos said:


> Some of what we are doing here is what Chump Lady warns is an endless and fruitless chase - “untangling the skein of their f***edupedness” - speculating as to her whys gives me a real headache.
> 
> but I can tell based on my own experience is why I’m such a relentless and stern advocate for maintaining that infidelity mostly happens in good marriages. Adultery so often takes a good marriage that could have been great and turns it automatically into a bad marriage. The school of thought that maintains the marriage must have been bad I think misses some critical facts: half of all marriages end in divorce. Are we to say half of all marriages are bad? If so we’d be conceding that marriage is a fundamentally flawed institution and perhaps it is. But I think the more subtle take is that most of that 50 percent were good marriages that could have been better. And most of that 50 percent were breakups caused by infidelity. thus most infidelity happens in good marriages.


I think most marriages are merely adequate, not good, and certainly not great. People get married for selfish reasons. People are a lot more selfish and entitled than they used to be, I think. That means a lot more marriages involve a selfish person. People are also more habituated to instant gratification. So when selfish people want something they can't get in their marriage, or find something they dislike about their marriage, they don't put in the work to change things. They look for shortcuts. They look for the easy way out. Why work on improving your marriage or helping your partner, if you can find someone out there willing to do it for less effort from you?


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Thumos said:


> ok but I'm getting contradictory advice here. Several people on this thread told me to go ahead and lay down some bread crumbs leading up to divorce, especially rather than springing it on my kids one fine day. They said that would be traumatic which I want to avoid. My youngest has NO IDEA this is coming. None.
> 
> In fact, it was explicitly said that I would be best to prepare my youngest. How do you guys think that works? I talk to my youngest and swear him to secrecy or something, let him carry that around until I'm ready to file? No. The only that works is if I'm honest with my WW too. You think she hasn't known this is coming? We talked about it in December. We walked about it least four times over the past six months. I wasn't going to do it when the lockdowns were happening. No way.


The most important thing is to be honest with your kids. No matter how old they are. Don't try to manipulate them or ask them to keep secrets! Just let them see your sadness, let them see you distancing yourself from your wife, let them see you sleep in separate bedrooms, and not be affectionate any more. Tell them that their mother did a bad thing a few years ago, she had a boyfriend, and that you worked really hard since then, but the marriage isn't going to survive it. But you will always be their father no matter what happens.

If you are working on any part of the process, let them see it. Tell them you have lawyer and bank appointments to figure things out. Let them see you in control of the situation. Take them househunting with you.

It's not about manipulating them with breadcrumbs. It's about age-appropriate transparency.


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> In the next week or so you are going to get some really painful truth I suspect. Be ready. Continue to detach. Like someone else said on the other thread, this will be her last Hail Mary. I suspect you may even be in shock afterwards. Don't allow that to change your mind.


I don’t know. A lot of people said this before the poly. it didn’t happen.

I guess I will find out. I’m pretty worn out with the whole situation and pretty cynical.

also I don’t see a lot of daylight between what I’m posting on SI and here. It’s all but identical.

this is from my last post there:

“_Bottom line: She can read here if she wants. She's isn't going to gain some major new insights. I told her how I felt about wanting a divorce. That's where I'm at._”


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Thumos said:


> I don't know if breadcrumbs is the right word, but I had the impression from several posters a few pages back that I would be wise to walk up to this a little bit with my youngest. That and I'm not ready to do it. I haven't met with an attorney at all, and I have been focused on paying down our debt. It's important to me that this debt be paid off. I don't want it lingering after divorce for either one of us.
> 
> So until that is done, why would I go out and preemptively file? And why would I do that if she and I have discussed a mediated divorce? Wouldn't it be better to ask her to go with me to meet a mediator for a preliminary meeting?
> 
> I mean, look, I really have no clue how this works. I've been married one time in my life and I never familiarized myself with divorce laws. I didn't think I would ever need to.


Marriage is the only contract you enter into with no clear understanding of the terms.

We all started that way at one point. And you won't be able to get specific advice from here, because divorce laws can vary so much from place to place. So consult a bunch of lawyers, find one that meshes well with you, and let them advise you on how to proceed. They'll tell you when filing is appropriate. They'll tell you what paperwork is important to have. Gather it up ahead of time before it mysteriously vanishes. Especially anything relating to your ex. Just because you consult a lawyer one day does not mean you are filing the next. But gathering information about the process is critical to your preparation. You may even find there are advantages to not paying down the debt. Who knows yet?

And yes, there are many horror stories about initially friendly ex-spouses turning nasty after the divorce process starts. Think about it. At one point, you never would have expected your wife to cheat. So now, you must acknowledge that you don't actually know what to expect from her in this divorce. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, as they say.

People can get selfish about custody, and treat the kids like possessions they don't want to share. Money issues blow up like crazy - people would rather spend every last cent fighting and give it all to lawyers than let their ex get one penny. People go into denial. Delay delay delay for years by not providing key documentation. Hide assets. Make false domestic violence claims to try to get an edge in the process. The person who wants the house might damage it to drop the value so they can afford it. Or if the house has to go on the market, they might hold up the process of getting it ready so they can live in it as long as possible. Etc.

Your wife has already shown you she can cheat and lie and manipulate you to get what she wants. Right now what she wants is to avoid a divorce. She's already trying to bribe you to stay with surprise sex. I would not be surprised if she put up a huge fight to do whatever she can to prevent divorce from going smoothly.

My divorce was probably as amicable as they come, considering there was infidelity involved. My ex even WANTED out. It still took around three years. We did a month of mediation to build an agreement we could live with, and then we each had to get legal advice. The lawyers managed to extend the process, and bill us accordingly, all by nitpicking over the legalese of the document, and trying to convince each of us we could do better.

So even if you think your wife would be collaborative, that might change once lawyers get involved.


----------



## Thumos

faithfulman said:


> But I place extreme value on loyalty, trust, character, and morals. I don't think these come from a book (though it may offer guidance),


Doesn’t come from a book but from a higher metaphysical reality we can barely comprehend as finite beings. The book is just a guide for us. But I grok your point.


----------



## Affaircare

@Thumos

UGH! So much to cover and so little time!

#1 - You know how it was an epiphany that your WW slipped in "afternoon delight" and it was easy to fit it in, and all-of-a-sudden you realized like scales had fallen off of your eyes that "Holy Smoke it would have been this easy to do it with AP too!"? Well let me give you another epiphany that is going to blow your mind: you will NEVER, EVER be able to figure this out as long as you keep thinking about it logically and reasonably, because I can tell you with 100% conviction that while a person is actively involved in an affair AND as long afterward as they continue in that foggy, self-centered style of thinking, there is no common sense or logic to it. You keep trying to look for reason (Why is she doing <blank>? What reason does she have for saying <blank>?) and thinking there will be some reasonable reason that will make you understand like "OH! What THAT'S why she did that! Ah ha!" But in real life, being a wayward is completely illogical. I can say that because I was one, and trust me, I'm as logical a female as you'll ever meet, and I lost my ever-loving mind! Now I don't mean I was insane or mentally ill, but it just was not "reasonable." In fact, everything about adultery is very UNreasonable! So note to self: stop looking for reasonableness in crazytown. She is not thinking logically. 

#2 - If the day ever comes that she does become a person suitable for reconciliation, you will be able to tell. Usually there is some life-changing event like a death in the family, a medical scare, a car accident--something that is a deep "come to Jesus" moment that CHANGES the inner core of the person, and it's not an instantaneous change, but it will be obvious that the fog is CLEARING. Usually, after the life-changing event, the person WANTS to change and be better, and they'll head straight to therapy or support groups or something to become a better person ON THEIR OWN BECAUSE THEY WANT TO! For example, some of the unreasonableness you have now will start to change to more and more and more REASON. There will be a clear DIFFERENCE in the person, and as an example, you would see her start to comprehend that her actions didn't "wound" you (from which you can heal....) but rather they "KILLED" you (can't come back from the dead). You'd see her act in a way that helps your triggers because she has compassion for what she put you through! Etc. If there has not been a life-changing event, then it is right and reasonable to continue to think that she has not changed and will continue "as is." 

#3 You asked:


> I'm also going to ask about a therapeutic separation agreement, which would then give us an egg timer for when a mediated settlement would be finalized. My understanding is it is or can be legally binding if the spouses agree, but is different from a trial separation -- and allows the betrayed to move out of the home without giving up property rights etc. It also prevent wayward from filing for D preemptively or at least that would be my hope based on what others here have warned about WW's going ballistic.


Okay to clarify terms: a therapeutic separation is like a healing separation or a trial separation, in that it's for a specifice timeframe and an agreement between the two to work on XYZ while they live apart ... in your case in order to achieve certain goals before divorce while living apart. There is no legal ability to enforce anything. You can write up an agreement "We agree to do this and that" but if one spouse chooses to just ignore it, there's nothing you can do. Since you'd still be legally married, just living apart, the law of property rights, etc. would be as if you are married.

A legal separation would mean the two live apart, and there are court orders that say "while you live apart, Spouse A does A or pays for A...Spouse B does B and pays for B" and there is a legal ability to enforce it if one spouse acts contemptuously because a court ordered it. 

Finally, I don't know of ANY separation that can prevent a spouse from pre-emptively filing for divorce. @Thumos, essentially you'd have to believe the promise of a person who has spent the last four years destructively lying to you to the point that your marriage is destroyed...and giving you the wisest advice I know to give, I would not advise believing the "agreement" of a known fraudster. In fact, I would say to trust just the opposite: that whatever is agreed on, you can depend on that agreement to be a lie. I don't have a trust issue--I trust 100% in her dishonesty. What I DON'T trust (reasonably) is her honesty!



> The home has been a nightmare trigger for me these 3.5 years. Normally, the wayward would move out of the home, but in the case where the betrayal happened in the home, it is recommended for the betrayed to be out and away. This would be a relief and a sojourn for me while the rest of the details then could be worked out.


Then I would recommend a separation (let's just call it that), and you agree to move out of the marital house for your own personal recovery, and you agree to continue XYZ bills and pay down the debts, and you agree to 50/50 custody and nothing less...and then have that read by an attorney and legalized in court. I would recommend doing that immediately. 



> My final thought is that a therapeutic separation could be framed somewhat differently for the kids and allow us to walk up to the idea of divorce without the shock and awe approach.


Okay--that seems potentially reasonable. Pursue separation then. The only distinction I'd make is making sure there is some legal piece to it, because if she does decide to get nasty and not live up to her promise, if there is something legal, it can be "enforced" by the courts. This way it's not YOU "being unreasonable" and expecting her to live up to her promise--it is SOCIETY telling her that she is expected to do as she promised.


----------



## Tobyboy

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Marriage is the only contract you enter into with no clear understanding of the terms.
> 
> We all started that way at one point. And you won't be able to get specific advice from here, because divorce laws can vary so much from place to place. So consult a bunch of lawyers, find one that meshes well with you, and let them advise you on how to proceed. They'll tell you when filing is appropriate. They'll tell you what paperwork is important to have. Gather it up ahead of time before it mysteriously vanishes. Especially anything relating to your ex. Just because you consult a lawyer one day does not mean you are filing the next. But gathering information about the process is critical to your preparation. You may even find there are advantages to not paying down the debt. Who knows yet?
> 
> And yes, there are many horror stories about initially friendly ex-spouses turning nasty after the divorce process starts. Think about it. At one point, you never would have expected your wife to cheat. So now, you must acknowledge that you don't actually know what to expect from her in this divorce. Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst, as they say.
> 
> People can get selfish about custody, and treat the kids like possessions they don't want to share. Money issues blow up like crazy - people would rather spend every last cent fighting and give it all to lawyers than let their ex get one penny. People go into denial. Delay delay delay for years by not providing key documentation. Hide assets. Make false domestic violence claims to try to get an edge in the process. The person who wants the house might damage it to drop the value so they can afford it. Or if the house has to go on the market, they might hold up the process of getting it ready so they can live in it as long as possible. Etc.


You know there’s also one other thing that happens a lot when a bs decides to D his WW. The WW accepts it and declares herself free to do whatever she wants! Going out with “friends” to bars, clubs, GNO, till early mornings. Neglecting kids, house, responsibilities...

T, you think you can handle seeing your stbxw stumbling in at 9am after being dropped off down the block by some dude?


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I don’t know. A lot of people said this before the poly. it didn’t happen.
> 
> I guess I will find out. I’m pretty worn out with the whole situation and pretty cynical.
> 
> also I don’t see a lot of daylight between what I’m posting on SI and here. It’s all but identical.
> 
> this is from my last post there:
> 
> “_Bottom line: She can read here if she wants. She's isn't going to gain some major new insights. I told her how I felt about wanting a divorce. That's where I'm at._”


Post the letter.


----------



## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> @Thumos
> 
> UGH! So much to cover and so little time!
> 
> #1 - You know how it was an epiphany that your WW slipped in "afternoon delight" and it was easy to fit it in, and all-of-a-sudden you realized like scales had fallen off of your eyes that "Holy Smoke it would have been this easy to do it with AP too!"? Well let me give you another epiphany that is going to blow your mind: you will NEVER, EVER be able to figure this out as long as you keep thinking about it logically and reasonably, because I can tell you with 100% conviction that while a person is actively involved in an affair AND as long afterward as they continue in that foggy, self-centered style of thinking, there is no common sense or logic to it. You keep trying to look for reason (Why is she doing <blank>? What reason does she have for saying <blank>?) and thinking there will be some reasonable reason that will make you understand like "OH! What THAT'S why she did that! Ah ha!" But in real life, being a wayward is completely illogical. I can say that because I was one, and trust me, I'm as logical a female as you'll ever meet, and I lost my ever-loving mind! Now I don't mean I was insane or mentally ill, but it just was not "reasonable." In fact, everything about adultery is very UNreasonable! So note to self: stop looking for reasonableness in crazytown. She is not thinking logically.
> 
> #2 - If the day ever comes that she does become a person suitable for reconciliation, you will be able to tell. Usually there is some life-changing event like a death in the family, a medical scare, a car accident--something that is a deep "come to Jesus" moment that CHANGES the inner core of the person, and it's not an instantaneous change, but it will be obvious that the fog is CLEARING. Usually, after the life-changing event, the person WANTS to change and be better, and they'll head straight to therapy or support groups or something to become a better person ON THEIR OWN BECAUSE THEY WANT TO! For example, some of the unreasonableness you have now will start to change to more and more and more REASON. There will be a clear DIFFERENCE in the person, and as an example, you would see her start to comprehend that her actions didn't "wound" you (from which you can heal....) but rather they "KILLED" you (can't come back from the dead). You'd see her act in a way that helps your triggers because she has compassion for what she put you through! Etc. If there has not been a life-changing event, then it is right and reasonable to continue to think that she has not changed and will continue "as is."
> 
> #3 You asked:
> 
> 
> Okay to clarify terms: a therapeutic separation is like a healing separation or a trial separation, in that it's for a specifice timeframe and an agreement between the two to work on XYZ while they live apart ... in your case in order to achieve certain goals before divorce while living apart. There is no legal ability to enforce anything. You can write up an agreement "We agree to do this and that" but if one spouse chooses to just ignore it, there's nothing you can do. Since you'd still be legally married, just living apart, the law of property rights, etc. would be as if you are married.
> 
> A legal separation would mean the two live apart, and there are court orders that say "while you live apart, Spouse A does A or pays for A...Spouse B does B and pays for B" and there is a legal ability to enforce it if one spouse acts contemptuously because a court ordered it.
> 
> Finally, I don't know of ANY separation that can prevent a spouse from pre-emptively filing for divorce. @Thumos, essentially you'd have to believe the promise of a person who has spent the last four years destructively lying to you to the point that your marriage is destroyed...and giving you the wisest advice I know to give, I would not advise believing the "agreement" of a known fraudster. In fact, I would say to trust just the opposite: that whatever is agreed on, you can depend on that agreement to be a lie. I don't have a trust issue--I trust 100% in her dishonesty. What I DON'T trust (reasonably) is her honesty!
> 
> 
> 
> Then I would recommend a separation (let's just call it that), and you agree to move out of the marital house for your own personal recovery, and you agree to continue XYZ bills and pay down the debts, and you agree to 50/50 custody and nothing less...and then have that read by an attorney and legalized in court. I would recommend doing that immediately.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay--that seems potentially reasonable. Pursue separation then. The only distinction I'd make is making sure there is some legal piece to it, because if she does decide to get nasty and not live up to her promise, if there is something legal, it can be "enforced" by the courts. This way it's not YOU "being unreasonable" and expecting her to live up to her promise--it is SOCIETY telling her that she is expected to do as she promised.


AC, I agree about there not being logic involved but if you read some of the cruel things she did to him I think that shows her heart. I mean read the first page of that thread, I really believe this women is a narcissist of the worst order. I don't think she has the ability to get it and 3 years with all the anecdotes he has written about proves it.


----------



## Thumos

Sokillme asked me to post my wife’s message to me from yesterday.

This came after we talked at length earlier this week about my desire to separate and divorce.

I will say this is not sudden or completely new. She’s written a number of things like this over the past few years. So it’s not like she had a sudden epiphany - this is important to know bc some may have the impression she is hitting the panic button. That may be but probably this letter from her isn’t indicative of that.

Here it is:

“_Can we carve out time this evening to talk about how you were feeling this morning? I know we just talked all night and I know nothing has changed. My expectation is not to solve. That’s not what I mean. If you want to talk about exactly the same things that’s fine. Or different things. I welcome your suggestion that we get back into dialoguing as well.

We need to be done with rug sweeping (which is exactly what you said. I need to be done with moving on each day as if I’m not seeing the excruciating pain on your face like this morning. When I see it and I feel it, it needs to be talked about. Over & over again. You need that freedom and deserve the expectation that I’m willing to have as many conversations as long as needed. It hangs heavy in the air and feels suffocating. 

Not that talking is going to magically “solve” anything but if it gives you a certain period of time where you feel “release” and “relief” from your pain that’s my goal. My expectations are realistic and specific as to the end game here. You’ve made it very clear and I appreciate your honesty. 

Even through your pain & anguish you are being honest with me and protective of my feelings in that you are not sugar coating how you see our future. It’s a gift I do not deserve and it is precious to me that you still have enough respect for me to be brutally honest. I have to get to work now. I hope your day is productive and calm. I love you._”


----------



## Thumos

Tobyboy said:


> You know there’s also one other thing that happens a lot when a bs decides to D his WW. The WW accepts it and declares herself free to do whatever she wants! Going out with “friends” to bars, clubs, GNO, till early mornings. Neglecting kids, house, responsibilities...
> 
> T, you think you can handle seeing your stbxw stumbling in at 9am after being dropped off down the block by some dude?


Yes. I mean if she goes down that path it just accelerates the process and I would document and lean in and push for primary or sole custody.

I think she sees herself as too “mature” psychologically to do that but I’ve been proven wrong before


----------



## Divinely Favored

Galabar01 said:


> Sounds like she's a pro at fitting in the "afternoon delight" into her schedule.
> 
> RickRoll


Probably why failed poly?


----------



## RebuildingMe

Thumos said:


> I'm also going to ask about a therapeutic separation agreement, which would then give us an egg timer for when a mediated settlement would be finalized. My understanding is it is or can be legally binding if the spouses agree, but is different from a trial separation -- and allows the betrayed to move out of the home without giving up property rights etc. It also prevent wayward from filing for D preemptively or at least that would be my hope based on what others here have warned about WW's going ballistic.
> 
> The home has been a nightmare trigger for me these 3.5 years. Normally, the wayward would move out of the home, but in the case where the betrayal happened in the home, it is recommended for the betrayed to be out and away. This would be a relief and a sojourn for me while the rest of the details then could be worked out.
> 
> My final thought is that a therapeutic separation could be framed somewhat differently for the kids and allow us to walk up to the idea of divorce without the shock and awe approach.
> 
> I think the time for shock and awe has passed, frankly. If I was going to do that, it should have happened in early 2017.
> 
> I would also think this type of therapeutic separation would protect me from the false DV scenario we always hear about, since I wouldn't be in the home.
> 
> I don't know if anyone has any thoughts on this or has heard of one.


I moved out of our marital home only after we signed a “pendente lite” stipulation. This way, my actions have no affect on the outcome of custody or marital property. I had to get out of the house for my own sanity and safety. Now I look like the ‘good guy’ to the court for doing so and protecting the kids from more arguments between mom and dad. So you can get out too, without fear of jeopardizing your assets. Just do it right. Also, I know you want an amicable divorce through mediation, we all do. Just know that just because someone agrees to mediation, either party can opt out at any time for any reason. Just be prepared for the worst. Even though you see it as 50/50 custody, no alimony and an even split of the assets, even if the law is on your side, I *guarantee *she sees it differently. That disconnect is what causes the divorce to become, more often then not, contentious. You’re not even factoring in the ‘vindictiveness, scorned wife’ role she will play because you ended the marriage. That will crop up also, especially after she speaks to her female friends about what a sht*ty husband you were all these years.


----------



## sokillme

So the letter doesn't say much. She is open to talk. Sounds like her words are basically mirroring your own. I think your plan to separate makes sense. At some point if you are going to do this you are gonna need to look forward, and stop looking back. Really I know it feels like it, but looking back isn't going to make the pain go away. It is obviously still there as she mentions it. 

Even if you had a brain scan and knew exactly all the things that happened that isn't going to make this better. In fact it works like a rash, you think that scratching it makes the itch goes away but it's temporary and it is worse afterwords. You really do know enough. 

She did because she could and she wanted too.
Her personal pleasure was more important to her them you or your family, and pretty much still has been.
They did it as many times as opportunity and desire let them but once was enough.

That is probably the best you are going to get, and trust me this is enough.

Dude there is a great life awaiting you. There is peace of mind, hope, joy, contentment. But it's not in looking behind, it's in having hope for your future.

Your wife is not the only women in the world. The world is full of very good ones. 

Continue to give yourself the courage to have hope for your future. 

Look it happened, it was terrible, but 3 years or mourning is enough.


----------



## Thumos

1. Pedente lite is great practical advice. Had not heard of this before.

2. I'm also talking separately to someone who did a therapeutic separation agreement to avoid a charge of abandonment. His situation was a lot worse than mine and his wife had conducted a year-long affair.

3. I do have several witnesses where's she said if we divorced, she would not seek alimony. I'm not sure that matters and I don't expect this forum to provide me with legal advice, but it's an interesting data point. I would think it would be difficult to seek alimony considering that.

3a. Also she makes the same income as me and may in fact make more this year. Nota bene she DID NOT make as much as me 3 years ago. So in that sense, I feel vindicated for sticking it out. Where I live, if it's a 50/50 custody split there is no child support. There would be no empirical basis for a judge to grant anything but a 50/50 split.

4.


sokillme said:


> Dude there is a great life awaiting you. There is peace of mind, hope, joy, contentment. But it's not in looking behind, it's in having hope for your future.
> 
> Your wife is not the only women in the world. The world is full of very good ones.
> 
> Continue to give yourself the courage to have hope for your future.
> 
> Look it happened, it was terrible, but 3 years or mourning is enough.



Thank you sokillme. Great pick me up and I needed it this morning. I do know (or sense) that I will be much better off physically and mentally being on my own. For one thing I won't be in the home where all this happened. I won't have to see the POSOM on a regular basis (the chances of the affair rekindling are slim to none - the OM has too much to lose financially at this stage). I just had to see him again yesterday driving around town, and of course I triggered hard.

And regardless of whether she loves me or I love her, I won't have to be around the human source of all of my pain 24/7.

I know there are plenty of quality women out there. I've already met them. I know I could set up at least one or two dates almost immediately if I wanted to. I'm not sure I will right away. As you say I've been processing this for 3 years, but some time to be in solitude and also focus on being a good dad would probably serve me well.


----------



## Thumos

Divinely Favored said:


> Probably why failed poly?


Maybe. Who knows.

There are a lot of possibilities about why she failed the poly on the sex question. The mind can develop an endlessly spooling movie reel of possibilities. One other tangible possibility is that she accepted his invitation to come to an empty townhouse his daddy owns on a certain night in question. I have slowly sussed this out. She denies it, but it seems likely.

As sokillme pointed out below, I've really been torturing myself for three years about this for no good reason. It's unlikely I'll ever get the real story. I think that's ChumpLady's point - that at some point you gotta cut your losses in this kind of thing and stop choosing to be entangled with a disordered person who would do this to you in the first place.

By the way I've read ChumpLady's book twice so it's not new information for me. As you can tell, I'm a bit of a paralysis by analysis personality as well as a perfectionist. Two really bad qualities for getting trapped in limbo.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> 1. Pedente lite is great practical advice. Had not heard of this before.
> 
> 2. I'm also talking separately to someone who did a therapeutic separation agreement to avoid a charge of abandonment. His situation was a lot worse than mine and his wife had conducted a year-long affair.
> 
> 3. I do have several witnesses where's she said if we divorced, she would not seek alimony. I'm not sure that matters and I don't expect this forum to provide me with legal advice, but it's an interesting data point. I would think it would be difficult to seek alimony considering that.
> 
> 3a. Also she makes the same income as me and may in fact make more this year. Nota bene she DID NOT make as much as me 3 years ago. So in that sense, I feel vindicated for sticking it out. Where I live, if it's a 50/50 custody split there is no child support. There would be no empirical basis for a judge to grant anything but a 50/50 split.
> 
> 4.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you sokillme. Great pick me up and I needed it this morning. I do know (or sense) that I will be much better off physically and mentally being on my own. For one thing I won't be in the home where all this happened. I won't have to see the POSOM on a regular basis (the chances of the affair rekindling are slim to none - the OM has too much to lose financially at this stage). I just had to see him again yesterday driving around town, and of course I triggered hard.
> 
> And regardless of whether she loves me or I love her, I won't have to be around the human source of all of my pain 24/7.
> 
> I know there are plenty of quality women out there. I've already met them. I know I could set up at least one or two dates almost immediately if I wanted to. I'm not sure I will right away. As you say I've been processing this for 3 years, but some time to be in solitude and also focus on being a good dad would probably serve me well.



You want to know a shock. There is going to come a point where you see that guy and it won't cause pain or even trigger you. Now you will want to punch him in his face but you won't feel a sense of loss like something was stolen from you. At that point you will accept that your wife is who she is and it would have happened eventually.

I don't think you should run out and date if you don't want. It make sense to get adjusted to your new life. See what that brings you. It's OK to believe it might be something really great you know. Stranger things have happened. 

Peace will be enough. And I promise you will get that.


----------



## RebuildingMe

Thumos, I’m really pulling for you through off of this. I was you up until a year ago. Filed in December. It’s hell on earth, but thinking about infidelity is no longer an issue. Like someone just wiped it from my brain. I’ve got my life back. I’m enjoy myself again. I’m happy. I’ve got my friends back, my income back and I have a gf whom I enjoy spending time with who never cheated on me. I hope you get your clarity soon brother.


----------



## BluesPower

RebuildingMe said:


> Thumos, I’m really pulling for you through off of this. I was you up until a year ago. Filed in December. It’s hell on earth, but thinking about infidelity is no longer an issue. Like someone just wiped it from my brain. I’ve got my life back. I’m enjoy myself again. I’m happy. I’ve got my friends back, my income back and I have a gf whom I enjoy spending time with who never cheated on me. I hope you get your clarity soon brother.


Amen brother. People just don't realize this fact. When you divorce them, you just don't care anymore who she is screwing, who she screwed, how many times, none of that. 

You just don't care. That is a great place to be...


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

Thumos said:


> 3. I do have several witnesses where's she said if we divorced, she would not seek alimony. I'm not sure that matters and I don't expect this forum to provide me with legal advice, but it's an interesting data point. I would think it would be difficult to seek alimony considering that.


Her chatter is not anything close to a binding signature on a legal document. There are lots of precedents and legal guidelines about who gets or doesn't get alimony, and what she mentioned socially doesn't have anything to do with it.



Thumos said:


> 3a. Also she makes the same income as me and may in fact make more this year. Nota bene she DID NOT make as much as me 3 years ago. So in that sense, I feel vindicated for sticking it out. Where I live, if it's a 50/50 custody split there is no child support. There would be no empirical basis for a judge to grant anything but a 50/50 split.


Her making the same money as you, or more, is the key factor about if she can get alimony or not. Document her income - make copies of her pay and tax info before you lose access to it. Be prepared for her to drop her hours ("oh, I'm under so much stress, I can't work full time anymore") or even quit entirely, to make her income seem smaller.

I'm curious - is she putting the same amount of effort into paying down the debt as you are right now? You realize that if she's spending her income on herself, and you're spending yours on joint debt, you aren't doing yourself any favours.


----------



## Livvie

If you two earn the same amount and share custody 50/50 then there probably will be no spousal or child support. There would be no reason for it.


----------



## RebuildingMe

Livvie said:


> If you two earn the same amount and share custody 50/50 then there probably will be no spousal or child support. There would be no reason for it.


Unfortunately, not in NY. Spousal support goes by income, so yes. However, child goes to the parent that gets residential custody, even if that parent makes more money than the other and the visitation is 50/50.


----------



## farsidejunky

Thumos said:


> Maybe. Who knows.
> 
> There are a lot of possibilities about why she failed the poly on the sex question. The mind can develop an endlessly spooling movie reel of possibilities. One other tangible possibility is that she accepted his invitation to come to an empty townhouse his daddy owns on a certain night in question. I have slowly sussed this out. She denies it, but it seems likely.
> 
> As sokillme pointed out below, I've really been torturing myself for three years about this for no good reason. It's unlikely I'll ever get the real story. I think that's ChumpLady's point - that at some point you gotta cut your losses in this kind of thing and stop choosing to be entangled with a disordered person who would do this to you in the first place.
> 
> By the way I've read ChumpLady's book twice so it's not new information for me. As you can tell, I'm a bit of a paralysis by analysis personality as well as a perfectionist. Two really bad qualities for getting trapped in limbo.


Damn, Thumos. Nearly half way to a thousand posts in less than two weeks over here, and really nothing has changed since the post-poly conversation with your WW.

I think what is most frustrating for posters both here and SI was your lack of willingness to place the onus of reconciliation on her, rather than you carrying it. In other words, if your wife were truly remorseful, she would be willing to crawl a mile through broken glass bathed in saltwater to earn your trust. Those seem to be the only reconciliations that not only survive, but actually thrive. 

But let's face it: you have no idea if she would do so because you weren't willing to make her do so. Rather, you have gone through some modicum of threats and saber rattling. And her response to those threats has been to complain that the glass shards will cut her, and that the saltwater will burn. You have to hand it to her: she knows how to work you.

Notice the phrasing: "will". "Will"...because she won't. Or maybe it's "can't", but in this situation, it matters little. They are synonymous. 

This leads us to what we (including you) all know: she ain't worth it. 

So what is really left in all of this? Sure, you are paying down debts, getting your ducks in a row, etc.

You have to understand, however, why one would be reasonably skeptical of what you are now doing given this has been a 3 1/2 year debacle. Count me among them.

Frankly, Thumos, I still hear fear from you. I posted something similar to you in SI some time ago. Until and unless you address your fear, little will change. Furthermore, you will never truly have healthy levels pride and self love until you are willing to make the hard, yet necessary choices despite your fear. 

Love yourself enough to refuse to tolerate the intolerable. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Thumos

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I'm curious - is she putting the same amount of effort into paying down the debt as you are right now? You realize that if she's spending her income on herself, and you're spending yours on joint debt, you aren't doing yourself any favours.


Yes she is. We are being very aggressive with it.


----------



## Livvie

RebuildingMe said:


> Unfortunately, not in NY. Spousal support goes by income, so yes. However, child goes to the parent that gets residential custody, even if that parent makes more money than the other and the visitation is 50/50.


That's insane.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Yes she is. We are being very aggressive with it.


I think she knows the writing is on the wall. Don't be surprised that she detaches very quickly. In a sense she detached a long time ago.

Loyalty is never a WS's thing.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Galabar01 said:


> Who is recommending breadcrumbs rather than filing? Even over in SI, they generally recommend filing right away to put the fear of God into the WS.


Yeah, but they only recommend that as a ploy in the hopes of making the cheater finally and miraculously "come out of that magical fog" and realize they're about to lose their spouse. It's just another 11th hour Hail Mary pass by the desperate.

If your marriage has gotten to the point where you have to 'scare' your spouse into wanting to be with you, just pull the friggen plug already.


----------



## Galabar01

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Yeah, but they only recommend that as a ploy in the hopes of making the cheater finally and miraculously "come out of that magical fog" and realize they're about to lose their spouse. It's just another 11th hour Hail Mary pass by the desperate.
> 
> If your marriage has gotten to the point where you have to 'scare' your spouse into wanting to be with you, just pull the friggen plug already.


From what I've seen and read, the immediate "shock and awe" divorce filers have the best result. They either instantly snap their WS out of the fog or get a favorable divorce settlement.


----------



## sokillme

But what is their motivation to be with you, love or fear. How can you base a marriage on fear.


----------



## Thumos

Coming back up for air. Busy day. I’ll try to respond soon.


----------



## Galabar01

sokillme said:


> But what is their motivation to be with you, love or fear. How can you base a marriage on fear.


I think, for the most part, it is putting the fact that they are about to lose their marriage right in front of their face. The spouse doesn't do the "pick me" dance. There is no long, drawn out process where the WS can stay in the fog. This seems to be remarkably successful. Over at SI, you can see the results plainly. For the BSs who are strong enough and self-assured enough to not take any ****, the results (reconciliation or divorce) seem to be much better. For the weaker BSs, it is almost always a train wreck.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Galabar01 said:


> _*From what I've seen and read, the immediate "shock and awe" divorce filers have the best result. They either instantly snap their WS out of the fog or get a favorable divorce settlement.*_


LOL, yeah, that's the nonsense they feed the sheep over in 'Stepford' at the SI website. 🤪🤪

The "fog" - every cheater's *Get Out of Jail Free* card. Blaming their **** behavior on the "fog" takes some of the heat right off their shoulders. Apparently, this mystical, magical "fog" envelopes a cheater when he or she is minding their own business and reading the Bible. Suddenly, they're no longer able to make rational decisions and will do things they'd normally NEVER do and they'll have fake feelings for an affair partner because according to the brain trust over there in Stepford, it's simply impossible for a cheater to love their affair partner.  

It's painfully obvious that BS's want very badly to believe "fog" exists. Let's face it, folks - if the "fog" *isn't* really a thing, then a BS has to face the truth and accept the fact that their cheater made every single decision on his or her OWN steam, and that they chose to disrespect their BS over and over and over because it benefitted them and allowed them to have *what they wanted* on the side. And a lot of the time, the cheater forms an emotional bond to their affair partner that can certainly be very real - but believing it's not real and just the "fog" makes it less hurtful for a BS to accept and easier to take the lying cheater back if they believe that nonsense.

See how that works?

A divorce doesn't make a cheater "snap out" of any magical fog. It makes them realize they've run out of time and their spouse isn't going to allow their ******** anymore and is pulling the plug. When faced with losing half their assets, becoming a part-time parent, and living on their own and having to be dependent only on *themselves*, most cheaters DO start behaving more rationally again. 

But that's not because some mystical fog has suddenly "broken" - that's all about SELF PRESERVATION for the cheater.

"Fog" my ass.

Delusional. Absolutely delusional.


----------



## lucy999

Double post


----------



## lucy999

Thumos said:


> Wouldn't it be better to ask her to go with me to meet a mediator for a preliminary meeting?


That's a big ol NOPE from me, sir. 

I know this sounds dramatic and I don't mean for it to sound this way. But she is your enemy. You wouldn't ask your enemy to come with you to a war planning meeting, would you? 

You can't trust her. You need someone on YOUR side. Leave her out of it!


----------



## sokillme

lucy999 said:


> That's a big ol NOPE from me, sir.
> 
> I know this sounds dramatic and I don't mean for it to sound this way. But she is your enemy. You wouldn't ask your enemy to come with you to a war planning meeting, would you?
> 
> You can't trust her. You need someone on YOUR side. Leave her out of it!


I agree, from an outside perspective, some of the things she has said to you betray her true nature and feelings for you. She is not to be trusted.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

lucy999 said:


> That's a big ol NOPE from me, sir.
> 
> I know this sounds dramatic and I don't mean for it to sound this way. But she is your enemy. You wouldn't ask your enemy to come with you to a war planning meeting, would you?
> 
> You can't trust her. You need someone on YOUR side. Leave her out of it!


Mediation is great if two people have the same destination in mind (divorce) and just want a neutral party to help them understand family law and negotiate terms.

It's a lot less useful if one person is trying to fight the process. That could be out of selfishness (they don't want to share the marriage assets or the children), punitive anger (they hate you and want you to suffer so they'll give you as little as possible and try to bleed you dry), or denial (they drag it out in hopes you'll change your mind about divorce). Then, it can be an expensive waste of time, and emotional torture to endure.

But it's not always easy to tell what kind of ex you have and if mediation will work until you begin the divorce process. Your wife is still under the assumption the marriage is going to survive if she works hard enough and pumps you full of enough sex endorphins, from the sound of it. You don't know how she'll react once she understands she's headed for divorce. At one point, you didn't think she'd ever cheat. You need to accept that you are no longer able to accurately predict her behaviour, and prepare for the worst.

I had to get my mind wrapped around that sort of behaviour. People would assure me my ex would never do something (hurt the kids, cheat on taxes, whatever), but I had to just look them in the eye and remind them that they would once have said my ex would never cheat. The truth is, once your spouse cheats, you are NO LONGER able to say with any assurance what they would or wouldn't do. Part of the ego-whammy of infidelity - the betrayed feels like they are no longer a good judge of character of anybody.


----------



## Galabar01

She'sStillGotIt said:


> LOL, yeah, that's the nonsense they feed the sheep over in 'Stepford' at the SI website. 🤪🤪
> 
> The "fog" - every cheater's *Get Out of Jail Free* card. Blaming their **** behavior on the "fog" takes some of the heat right off their shoulders. Apparently, this mystical, magical "fog" envelopes a cheater when he or she is minding their own business and reading the Bible. Suddenly, they're no longer able to make rational decisions and will do things they'd normally NEVER do and they'll have fake feelings for an affair partner because according to the brain trust over there in Stepford, it's simply impossible for a cheater to love their affair partner.
> 
> It's painfully obvious that BS's want very badly to believe "fog" exists. Let's face it, folks - if the "fog" *isn't* really a thing, then a BS has to face the truth and accept the fact that their cheater made every single decision on his or her OWN steam, and that they chose to disrespect their BS over and over and over because it benefitted them and allowed them to have *what they wanted* on the side. And a lot of the time, the cheater forms an emotional bond to their affair partner that can certainly be very real - but believing it's not real and just the "fog" makes it less hurtful for a BS to accept and easier to take the lying cheater back if they believe that nonsense.
> 
> See how that works?
> 
> A divorce doesn't make a cheater "snap out" of any magical fog. It makes them realize they've run out of time and their spouse isn't going to allow their ******** anymore and is pulling the plug. When faced with losing half their assets, becoming a part-time parent, and living on their own and having to be dependent only on *themselves*, most cheaters DO start behaving more rationally again.
> 
> But that's not because some mystical fog has suddenly "broken" - that's all about SELF PRESERVATION for the cheater.
> 
> "Fog" my ass.
> 
> Delusional. Absolutely delusional.


I think you took multiple paragraphs to mostly agree with me. 😁

Whatever you call it, whether it be "fog" or a realization that "**** is real," filling tends to work and usually brings the best results.


----------



## Thumos

I do intend to reply to more recent posts soon. Work is keeping me pretty busy.


----------



## faithfulman

@Thumos - read around your last 5 posts on the big thread on SI JFO. 

you really should start applying that advice to your own life. 

It's not too late.


----------



## sokillme

OK got another one -

_*jlarson*_

Stuck in the SI limbo. Talking about how this is the best he can do, and he knows it's never gonna get better. This of course will be reinforced by those who never left for it to get better. No it won't bet better if you stay. It does get better if you leave. It actually goes away if you leave.

Post like that are the absolute worst. If you are miserable and think about it every day 4 years later, the only person responsible about where you are in life is YOU. Sadly you can only say that here. 

Wish someone would send him here.

Seriously send that dude here!


----------



## sokillme

faithfulman said:


> @Thumos - read around your last 5 posts on the big thread on SI JFO.
> 
> you really should start applying that advice to your own life.
> 
> It's not too late.


Are you the same guy on SI?


----------



## Thumos

I told her definitively about four hours ago I want a divorce. no ifs ands or buts. “I want a divorce.” I feel better than I have in years. I understand the warnings of what I’m about to deal with. I’m not naive.

I will try to update more tomorrow. I have several big projects all coming to bear this week making it difficult to post.


----------



## Buffer

Well done and strength to you. This is what you wanted.
Buffer


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos said:


> I told her definitively about four hours ago I want a divorce. no ifs ands or buts. “I want a divorce.” I feel better than I have in years. I understand the warnings of what I’m about to deal with. I’m not naive.
> 
> I will try to update more tomorrow. I have several big projects all coming to bear this week making it difficult to post.


Given some of your SI posts, I was going to respond with a "physician, heal thyself" post. However, it looks like you don't need it...

I think most folks misunderstood where you were. You tried to explain about the heart condition, covid, etc., but I don't think folks actually recognized your resolve...


----------



## BluesPower

sokillme said:


> OK got another one -
> 
> _*jlarson*_
> 
> Stuck in the SI limbo. Talking about how this is the best he can do, and he knows it's never gonna get better. This of course will be reinforced by those who never left for it to get better. No it won't bet better if you stay. It does get better if you leave. It actually goes away if you leave.
> 
> Post like that are the absolute worst. If you are miserable and think about it every day 4 years later, the only person responsible about where you are in life is YOU. Sadly you can only say that here.
> 
> Wish someone would send him here.
> 
> Seriously send that dude here!


Yes that is a sad one. Why in the world be "Reconciled" is beyond me.

And he is wondering 4 years LATER why he is not really happy.

Poor guy...

And SKM, he is going to stay there for the rest of his life. He thinks he is doing God' work.


----------



## lucy999

Thumos said:


> I told her definitively about four hours ago I want a divorce. no ifs ands or buts. “I want a divorce.” I feel better than I have in years.


Congratulations on removing that **** sandwich from your plate. I'm glad you feel better. You so deserve it.


----------



## Thumos

Sorry for the long delay in posting. My posting is going to be limited this week. As I said, several projects coming to bear all at once. Short update: I feel firm and good about my decision. Not overjoyed, because who would celebrate this? I don't. But I feel good. Not bad. I slept like a baby last night.

To the comment above, yes I believe people misunderstood both my tendency to have diarrhea of the keyboard and my delay as dithering. The thing is, I tend to process and think through writing. I always have. I can write and write and write. And I do. I used to do it for a living. And I write for myself all the time. So you're watching my mind process things as I write. It's a very useful way of thinking through thorny problems and I recommend it to anyone. The more you do it, the more fluent you will be. 

Anyway, I think people sometimes mistake thoughtfulness and a careful precise process of reasoning for dithering. It's not. As far as the delay, I did keep outlining for folks my careful reasoning on this, and it hasn't changed. I think people for some reason mistook my delay during the heart scare and the pandemic lockdowns as excuses. All I can say is I wasn't about to add stress to my heart by initiating a divorce proceeding. And I'd have to be some real kind of **** bird to divorce someone (including a wayward spouse) with kids involved in the middle of a global pandemic that crashed the US economy. 

Those were the facts on the ground this spring. I'm a big boy and can make adult decisions. 

I'm not getting divorced tomorrow. It takes awhile. 

But I am firm and resolved for the path forward and I feel great about it.

So here's an interesting detail: Had a busy and very enjoyable family weekend. Lots of fun activities with my extended family and my nuclear family. And at the same time, I also knew that I was going to tell her I wanted a divorce. I didn't know when until last night. This weekend, I also had a number of dreams -- all of them about divorce. Not a single one of these was a bad dream. Not a single one. They were all neutral to positive. They were never "fantasy dreams" about how great it was going to be. Just a running them that was resolved that it was the right thing to do. And that my burdens were easing dramatically. In one dream, I took a new job and my boss was an older woman, wise about the world. She learned of my situation and took me aside in the dream and firmly said, "I know you've been struggling. I need you to be effective. This is the right thing to do for your health and sanity. You know what to do."

I woke up feeling rested and refreshed after that dream.

I suppose the precipitating event last night was my youngest had a zoom call with his friend the OM’s child. I was working and my youngest came to tell me and said it was fun talking to said friend. And I said great and I was glad he got to do that. I can assume everyone here can think about what this is like, how triggering it is and how I only want the best for my son in spite of my own feelings. 

And then he started asking for the thousandth time why his friend can never come over -- and he said “I really want to know." It was a very adult moment for him and right then and there I wanted to tell him exactly why, to level with him, to treat him with respect. I was completely unprepared and said that his mom and I would both talk to him about it. He said “so *_* can never come over?” And tears started welling up in his eyes. I said gently “no he can’t” and then he said “you’re being selfish.”

Dagger to the heart. 

I have a great relationship with my son. He was upset and rightfully so in the moment, trying to process something that makes no sense with only the grid of a 10 year old to rely on. Spoiler alert: Later he and I sat on the couch together and watched a Marvel movie and he laid there with his head in my lap. He's a boy on the verge of becoming a man, trying to figure out the world. 

When he said that me, in that moment right then I realized how my WW had just put me In this awful untenable position -- no matter what she regret she feels now. And that she simply hadn't done the work to address this. So a few moments later, I took my WW back in our bedroom and told her I no longer want to be placed in this position, it is completely confusing to our son, totally unfair to me, and now he’s at an age where we can’t paper over it.

And then without even thinking about it it just came out “and I want a divorce.” I didn't know I was going to say it until I said it. 

As far as my WW's reaction to this, she was sad, resigned, cried. But there were no hysterics. No begging. We talked about the situation for awhile. She said it wasn't what she wanted, but she understood.

I slept like a baby last night. She didn't. I hope that doesn't make me sound cold. I'm not reveling in this. I just feel sure of what I'm doing.

This morning, she wanted to pray with me (if I can ask commenters here to refrain from speculating on the genuineness of this, I'd appreciate it). I do believe her renewed faith over the past year has been genuine, and I'm glad for her on this front.

That said, she also said some things this morning that only strengthened my resolve. It was nothing profound, just little niggling details that reveal she is still stuck in that "regret vs remorse" limbo that I no longer want to be a part of.

I know that many many people have been burned in the divorce process by a wayward spouse who already betrayed them. I'm not naive. I also know that there's a tendency to read things into a situation based on what an anonymous poster like myself has provided that just aren't accurate. I am watching and waiting to see how my WW reacts, what she does. 

I know it's not how everyone would do it, but I'm going to arrange for a family lawyer consult and ask her to go along with me. I want to be above board and amicable. It's the only way I know how to be. If it burns me, or if she turns hostile, so be it. I'll deal with it as it comes. 

I'm resolved. I'm moving forward.

That's all for now. I'll be back later for sure.


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> Yes that is a sad one. Why in the world be "Reconciled" is beyond me.
> 
> And he is wondering 4 years LATER why he is not really happy.
> 
> Poor guy...
> 
> And SKM, he is going to stay there for the rest of his life. He thinks he is doing God' work.


This guy has SO MANY similarities with my own situation it's astonishing really. Like was something in the ether 4 years ago that led to WW's cheating with their BH's friends and screwing them in their homes? It's really eerie how it lines up. He's in denial. I came to SI last year in desperate pain at not quite the 3 year mark. I didn't think I was in reconciliation, but I wanted to see if there was a way to get there. I needed time to process.

I do want to say to people here at TAM that are reflexively anti-SI, you should rethink this. I feel like I got mostly very good advice over there. I can't think of many who tried to push me to reconcile or rugsweep (in fact I can't think of anyone over there who encouraged rugsweeping and they told me point blank that's what I was doing). 

I also feel like I've gotten good advice here at TAM (i also think I've gotten some less good advice here to be candid - some folks who reflexively in the camp of "all waywards are sociopaths"). 

But overall the two websites balanced each other out nicely. And they aren't what I've relied on in any case. I've gotten IC, I've talked to pastors, I've talked relentlessly to friends. I've journaled and prayed. 

I think it has worked out so far exactly as God intended. 

As far as this guy jlarson he's basically in a very painful limbo and he doesn't recognize it as such. When I came to SI last year, I COMPLETELY recognized the state I was in, that I was deeply unhappy, and that I needed to figure out what to do with one of the most momentous decisions in my life. Jlarson hasn't even reached that stage yet. He came on SI yesterday to tell everyone about the lessons he's learned and how he thinks this state of affairs is acceptable. So he needs a kick in the pants, in my view.


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> This guy has SO MANY similarities with my own situation it's astonishing really. Like was something in the ether 4 years ago that led to WW's cheating with their BH's friends and screwing them in their homes? It's really eerie how it lines up. He's in denial. I came to SI last year in desperate pain at not quite the 3 year mark. I didn't think I was in reconciliation, but I wanted to see if there was a way to get there. I needed time to process.
> 
> I do want to say to people here at TAM that are reflexively anti-SI, you should rethink this. I feel like I got mostly very good advice over there. I can't think of many who tried to push me to reconcile or rugsweep (in fact I can't think of anyone over there who encouraged rugsweeping and they told me point blank that's what I was doing).
> 
> I also feel like I've gotten good advice here at TAM (i also think I've gotten some less good advice here to be candid - some folks who reflexively in the camp of "all waywards are sociopaths").
> 
> But overall the two websites balanced each other out nicely. And they aren't what I've relied on in any case. I've gotten IC, I've talked to pastors, I've talked relentlessly to friends. I've journaled and prayed.
> 
> I think it has worked out so far exactly as God intended.
> 
> As far as this guy jlarson he's basically in a very painful limbo and he doesn't recognize it as such. When I came to SI last year, I COMPLETELY recognized the state I was in, that I was deeply unhappy, and that I needed to figure out what to do with one of the most momentous decisions in my life. Jlarson hasn't even reached that stage yet. He came on SI yesterday to tell everyone about the lessons he's learned and how he thinks this state of affairs is acceptable. So he needs a kick in the pants, in my view.


Those of us that bash SI I think have good reason. 

They don't really like the truth. If you really read what is said on some of those threads. It is just silly. 

I think they lean WAY to much toward Reconciliation, in the worst of circumstances. They push the wrong "Christian" narrative. 

In truth, except for the FEW, VERY FEW, truly happy and reconciled people there, and you have to wonder how happy they really are, I believe most people are better off divorcing.

And, some of the guides and mods are just silly, sorry but they are. 

Look at people like RIO, is he truly happy? His wife, was done with him, bored with him sexually in every way, and he was pushed to reconcile in my opinion. He is pragmatic about it. But she kept him on a starvation diet and banged her AP 3 TIMES A DAY. 

I think he thinks he is as happy as he will be. I think he wishes he had divorced. There are plenty of other examples. 

Not tying to be argumentative just debating a little. 

Like you T, I think your mind was made up when you got here, but I would hope we could have pushed you to divorce sooner, and I know you were processing. It may have made no difference. 

I kind of wish you could have made your mind up before the Medical Scare. You know it was stress, but ask yourself this, how far were you away from a real Heart Attack, was anyone able to answer that? I am not sure any of us really know when that stuff happens. 

I had a stroke, and it woke me up to my life and what I was doing, and how crazy it way. I am glad for it now, but when it happened, I was scared ****less. Changed my life.

I think outwardly you still project to much "Goodness" onto your wife. She never deserved it. I know you don't see it. And maybe never will. 

Of course I could be wrong about all of this, so who really knows...


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> This guy has SO MANY similarities with my own situation it's astonishing really. Like was something in the ether 4 years ago that led to WW's cheating with their BH's friends and screwing them in their homes? It's really eerie how it lines up. He's in denial. I came to SI last year in desperate pain at not quite the 3 year mark. I didn't think I was in reconciliation, but I wanted to see if there was a way to get there. I needed time to process.
> 
> I do want to say to people here at TAM that are reflexively anti-SI, you should rethink this. I feel like I got mostly very good advice over there. I can't think of many who tried to push me to reconcile or rugsweep (in fact I can't think of anyone over there who encouraged rugsweeping and they told me point blank that's what I was doing).
> 
> ....
> 
> As far as this guy jlarson he's basically in a very painful limbo and he doesn't recognize it as such. When I came to SI last year, I COMPLETELY recognized the state I was in, that I was deeply unhappy, and that I needed to figure out what to do with one of the most momentous decisions in my life. Jlarson hasn't even reached that stage yet. He came on SI yesterday to tell everyone about the lessons he's learned and how he thinks this state of affairs is acceptable. So he needs a kick in the pants, in my view.


We do KICK IN THE PANTS a hell of a lot better then SI.


----------



## OddOne

Honestly, once I get the sense early on that someone is speaking kumbaya-esque navel gazing gibberish, or if I perceive him or her to be a condescending prick, etc., I tend to skip over what they say from then on. I also have a short attention span to begin with.


----------



## sokillme

BluesPower said:


> Those of us that bash SI I think have good reason.
> 
> They don't really like the truth. If you really read what is said on some of those threads. It is just silly.
> 
> I think they lean WAY to much toward Reconciliation, in the worst of circumstances. They push the wrong "Christian" narrative.
> 
> In truth, except for the FEW, VERY FEW, truly happy and reconciled people there, and you have to wonder how happy they really are, I believe most people are better off divorcing.
> 
> And, some of the guides and mods are just silly, sorry but they are.
> 
> Look at people like RIO, is he truly happy? His wife, was done with him, bored with him sexually in every way, and he was pushed to reconcile in my opinion. He is pragmatic about it. But she kept him on a starvation diet and banged her AP 3 TIMES A DAY.
> 
> I think he thinks he is as happy as he will be. I think he wishes he had divorced. There are plenty of other examples.
> 
> Not tying to be argumentative just debating a little.
> 
> Like you T, I think your mind was made up when you got here, but I would hope we could have pushed you to divorce sooner, and I know you were processing. It may have made no difference.
> 
> I kind of wish you could have made your mind up before the Medical Scare. You know it was stress, but ask yourself this, how far were you away from a real Heart Attack, was anyone able to answer that? I am not sure any of us really know when that stuff happens.
> 
> I had a stroke, and it woke me up to my life and what I was doing, and how crazy it way. I am glad for it now, but when it happened, I was scared ****less. Changed my life.
> 
> I think outwardly you still project to much "Goodness" onto your wife. She never deserved it. I know you don't see it. And maybe never will.
> 
> Of course I could be wrong about all of this, so who really knows...



The biggest lie that is spoken all the time at SI is that no matter what it doesn't get better and you are stuck with it. In the vast majority of cases that is a damnable lie. If you stay in the vast majority of cases as far as I can tell, yes you do think about it every day. You are haunted by it. That part is true.

But if you leave - you get better eventually. You don't wake up and it's the first thing on your mind. You don't feel stuck, you don't questions yourself. You are free. You gain your pride back. You have a new potential in your life. And most importantly the dream of having a really good marriage with a faithful partner with all the "specialness" that brings is still a potential in your life.

The reason why so many say that over there is because they are like the blind leading the blind. How can you say it's both the same when you leave if you have never left. They have not context of which to speak from. 

You know how I know that -

*Anyone who left and divorced who post on here, here are 4 questions -*

Did your life get better?
Do you think you made the right choice?
How often do you think about the affair?
How much pain does that cause you?

Mr Thumos is already starting to experience the same thing.


----------



## BluesPower

sokillme said:


> The biggest lie that is spoken all the time at SI is that no matter what it doesn't get better and you are stuck with it. In the vast majority of cases that is a damnable lie. If you stay in the vast majority of cases as far as I can tell, yes you do think about it every day. You are haunted by it. That part is true.
> 
> But if you leave - you get better eventually. You don't wake up and it's the first thing on your mind. You don't feel stuck, you don't questions yourself. You are free. You gain your pride back. You have a new potential in your life. And most importantly the dream of having a really good marriage with a faithful partner with all the "specialness" that brings is still a potential in your life.
> 
> The reason why so many say that over there is because they are like the blind leading the blind. How can you say it's both the same when you leave if you have never left. They have not context of which to speak from.
> 
> You know how I know that -
> 
> *Anyone who left and divorced who post on here, here are 4 questions -*
> 
> Did your life get better?
> Do you think you made the right choice?
> How often do you think about the affair?
> How much pain does that cause you?
> 
> Mr Thumos is already starting to experience the same thing.


All good points...

I can tell you that, I don't even think about my ex wife at all, hardly ever.

I kind of get pissed off when I have to talk to her, because I was pretending she did not exist.

Yeah, divorce def get you over that stuff, all of it...


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> In truth, except for the FEW, VERY FEW, truly happy and reconciled people there, and you have to wonder how happy they really are, I believe most people are better off divorcing.
> 
> And, some of the guides and mods are just silly, sorry but they are.
> 
> Look at people like RIO, is he truly happy? His wife, was done with him, bored with him sexually in every way, and he was pushed to reconcile in my opinion. He is pragmatic about it. But she kept him on a starvation diet and banged her AP 3 TIMES A DAY.


I do agree with this. Good assessment. I just think there are a LOT of people on SI who aren't pushing for reconciliation at all. I got good insight from quite a few of them. There are WW's on my thread saying essentially, "she doesn't get it. you need to think about getting out."


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> You know it was stress, but ask yourself this, how far were you away from a real Heart Attack, was anyone able to answer that?


according to the docs, very far. Very healthy heart. I do have elevated BP the past few years and that is 100 percent tied back to the stress of her affair and the aftermath. 

But my heart thank God is very strong and clean as a whistle. 

The heart scare was completely related to two things: a miscalibrated CPAP and some extended apneaic episodes (also helped cause elevated BP) and the stress of the stupid extended drama around the polygraph. I got a bad EKG reading from my family doc (it happens) that spit out an automatic result of heart attack. It was 100 percent wrong. 

Now that said, the great thing about the heart scare was that it was a HUGE wake up call. HUGE. That I needed to live my life differently on all fronts. I've gained some weight I don't need, I was drinking more than I should have to self-medicate and so on. All that crap needed to come to screeching halt. 

And yes, TAM has absolutely been a catalyst. I was probably already 98 percent there. TAM gave me the additional 2 percent. You're probably right that getting to D earlier would have been better but given my own knowledge of my own personality, I'm not so sure. I'm stubbron and often have to feel like I've given everything on the field 110 percent before I can call it.


----------



## BluesPower

Thumos said:


> I do agree with this. Good assessment. I just think there are a LOT of people on SI who aren't pushing for reconciliation at all. I got good insight from quite a few of them. There are WW's on my thread saying essentially, "she doesn't get it. you need to think about getting out."


T, check a PM from the other place...


----------



## Thumos

OddOne said:


> Honestly, once I get the sense early on that someone is speaking kumbaya-esque navel gazing gibberish, or if I perceive him or her to be a condescending prick, etc., I tend to skip over what they say from then on. I also have a short attention span to begin with.


There are a couple of posters on SI that the condescending prick label fits perfectly. I can think of a few. Heck, I may resemble that remark myself


----------



## Thumos

sokillme said:


> But if you leave - you get better eventually. You don't wake up and it's the first thing on your mind. You don't feel stuck, you don't questions yourself. You are free. You gain your pride back. You have a new potential in your life. And most importantly the dream of having a really good marriage with a faithful partner with all the "specialness" that brings is still a potential in your life.


I'm already having this experience.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I'm already having this experience.


Man you have no idea what's coming. I want you to post on here the day when you suddenly realize this horrible cloud that covered every part of your life, that has been your constant companion in your case that last 4 years is completely gone. Gone to the point that you didn't remember that you were supposed to remember. That's the moment. When you know that you got yourself back, your entire self. You are free. It's glorious and now that you have decide to move it will inevitably happen to you.

I think that is is why most of us post on here, because we all believed that this "friend" that had been our constant companion was something we going to have to live with. We learned it's not, and now we are like the guys on the dock pulling those desperately swimming to survive to the shore.


----------



## Affaircare

I don't mean to threadjack, but @sokillme asked four questions that I thought were very intriguing, and since I've been both betrayed (divorced) and disloyal (reconciled), I thought I'd be in an unique position to opine on these:

1) Did your life get better?
Betrayed (divorce)--absolutely 100% yes, my life went from abused to valued, from feeling trapped to freedom. I didn't realize it at the time, but it was the kindest thing exH ever did for me. I grew by leaps and bounds.
Disloyal (reconcile)--100% yes. Strange isn't it? Our lives got better together because we both actually did the hard work, and didn't blame each other. That's super rare! So even though Dear Hubby got ill and eventually passed, we had maybe a decade of very happy, close, loving marriage...because we did the work to build that. 

2) Do you think you made the right choice?
Betrayed (divorce)--100% yes. I'm a lot like you @Thumos--I write to breathe, and I journaled for YEARS to process what happened and document for myself that I had left no stone unturned. But once I did file, it was like making a decision and never looking in the rear view mirror. I think it took a total of 120 days.
Disloyal (reconcile)--100% yes...moreso if that were possible. I grew to understand what marriage truly is and what commitment means, and we grew together in a healthy, loving way. Dear Hubby was a hero to offer that gift, and he was worth the effort to reconcile.

3) How often do you think about the affair?
Betrayed (divorce)--I mostly only think of my exH's affair(s) to write here on TAM, but I would say "on the occasion." I surely don't dwell on them anymore nor feel triggered at all.
Disloyal (reconcile)--I think about my affair on a daily basis. I constantly and continuously guard myself against my own weaknesses. I regret it every single day. But I can also say I don't go around moping and sighing. I just stay vigilant and careful.

4) How much pain does that cause you?
Betrayed (divorce)--OMG if you only knew. My exH had many affairs and it turned out it was not a faithful person, and I never knew! Then again, I was living with rose-colored glasses (shrug). At the time it caused me a TON of pain...now, two marriages later...I'd say none. It is my past, nothing more.
Disloyal (reconcile)--I'll be honest, I still feel, inside my own self, privately, a sense of sorrow and shame that I behaved as I did. I can't believe I sank so low. But I did, and it is also my past. I wouldn't say it's pain so much as sadness that motivates me to never go that route again and be a better version of me. 

Now, I took a minute to answer these questions because I'm about 18 years from my betrayed/divorce and about 13 years from my disloyal/reconciliation. I thought it might be eye-opening to see what some years can do when looking back on events. I did not divorce quickly--from DDay to filing was two years I think, and I left no stone unturned trying to save it. But now, almost 20 years later, I think back on it without one twinge and think of it as one of the best growth periods of my life. My own affair I definitely mourn more deeply, but even that I keep reminding myself is NOT who I am anymore, and it was forgiven a long time ago. Divorcing is not a decision I regret one bit; and neither was reconciling when done right.


----------



## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> I don't mean to threadjack, but @sokillme asked four questions that I thought were very intriguing, and since I've been both betrayed (divorced) and disloyal (reconciled), I thought I'd be in an unique position to opine on these:
> 
> 1) Did your life get better?
> Betrayed (divorce)--absolutely 100% yes, my life went from abused to valued, from feeling trapped to freedom. I didn't realize it at the time, but it was the kindest thing exH ever did for me. I grew by leaps and bounds.
> Disloyal (reconcile)--100% yes. Strange isn't it? Our lives got better together because we both actually did the hard work, and didn't blame each other. That's super rare! So even though Dear Hubby got ill and eventually passed, we had maybe a decade of very happy, close, loving marriage...because we did the work to build that.
> 
> 2) Do you think you made the right choice?
> Betrayed (divorce)--100% yes. I'm a lot like you @Thumos--I write to breathe, and I journaled for YEARS to process what happened and document for myself that I had left no stone unturned. But once I did file, it was like making a decision and never looking in the rear view mirror. I think it took a total of 120 days.
> Disloyal (reconcile)--100% yes...moreso if that were possible. I grew to understand what marriage truly is and what commitment means, and we grew together in a healthy, loving way. Dear Hubby was a hero to offer that gift, and he was worth the effort to reconcile.
> 
> 3) How often do you think about the affair?
> Betrayed (divorce)--I mostly only think of my exH's affair(s) to write here on TAM, but I would say "on the occasion." I surely don't dwell on them anymore nor feel triggered at all.
> Disloyal (reconcile)--I think about my affair on a daily basis. I constantly and continuously guard myself against my own weaknesses. I regret it every single day. But I can also say I don't go around moping and sighing. I just stay vigilant and careful.
> 
> 4) How much pain does that cause you?
> Betrayed (divorce)--OMG if you only knew. My exH had many affairs and it turned out it was not a faithful person, and I never knew! Then again, I was living with rose-colored glasses (shrug). At the time it caused me a TON of pain...now, two marriages later...I'd say none. It is my past, nothing more.
> Disloyal (reconcile)--I'll be honest, I still feel, inside my own self, privately, a sense of sorrow and shame that I behaved as I did. I can't believe I sank so low. But I did, and it is also my past. I wouldn't say it's pain so much as sadness that motivates me to never go that route again and be a better version of me.
> 
> Now, I took a minute to answer these questions because I'm about 18 years from my betrayed/divorce and about 13 years from my disloyal/reconciliation. I thought it might be eye-opening to see what some years can do when looking back on events. I did not divorce quickly--from DDay to filing was two years I think, and I left no stone unturned trying to save it. But now, almost 20 years later, I think back on it without one twinge and think of it as one of the best growth periods of my life. My own affair I definitely mourn more deeply, but even that I keep reminding myself is NOT who I am anymore, and it was forgiven a long time ago. Divorcing is not a decision I regret one bit; and neither was reconciling when done right.


This is great, I have no doubt about what you say, I also think this is a great perspective from a truly repentant WS. But I also think without a doubt the WS gets a much better end of the deal when people R. This was really meant for those who were cheated on and divorced. Though as you know I have no problem with you answering as I hold you with the highest respect.


----------



## Affaircare

I think that's the unique thing about this: as a truly repentant WS I'd agree with you, and it's why I make the attempt to point out that 
a) yep, technically "it can happen" but truly--look how long I've been here on TAM (like ten years) and in all that time I can think of literally two more maybe whom I'd call truly repentant. The rest of the WSs regret that they have to pay any kind of consequence and are actively trying to avoid that--not humbly admitting they deserve it. Thus, I like to point out the WS :bsflag:
b) I agree that WSs get the better end of the deal! The natural consequence of adultery is losing the family, the marriage, and half of everything! Anything else is a gift beyond description!
c) I thought it would be an interesting perspective to consider the differences (if any) of being a BS and divorcing...and being a WS and truly reconciling. In @Thumos ' instance I 100% agree and concur that he is making the right choice and gave it every possible opportunity to have been a reconciliation if she had only chosen to get honest and live transparently. She didn't choose that and he is on the road to recovery! 100% I believe he'll look back on this like I look back on my own divorce: with head held high that he did all he could and with complete conviction that he did what was best for him and his family.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

sokillme said:


> *Anyone who left and divorced who post on here, here are 4 questions -*
> 
> Did your life get better?
> Do you think you made the right choice?
> How often do you think about the affair?
> How much pain does that cause you?


I feel like this should be its own thread, but I'm going to answer anyway.

Life got immensely better. No longer being stabbed in the back by the person who swore to have my back? Priceless. Single parenting, financial woes, any of the sequelae are worth not trying to rely on someone unreliable.

For me there was no other choice but divorce. My ex would not stop cheating, and didn't seem to care how much it hurt me. I could not stay married to that kind of cruelty.

We share children and do exchanges in person, so I can't help but be reminded now and then. Sometimes questions like this come up, too. So it's several times a week, I guess. Once the kids are launched, I expect that to decrease.

It doesn't hurt anymore. It's just an awful part of my life that's behind me. Occasionally, something will happen that could be considered a trigger, but all that happens is a minor tinge of melancholy, I guess, that my life isn't where I had once envisioned it. I suspect if I remarried, that wouldn't even happen at all either.


----------



## sokillme

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I feel like this should be its own thread, but I'm going to answer anyway.


OK I added one more, please feel free to move your answers there.









Anyone who was cheated on and divorced here are 5 questions.


How long after the affair did you decided to end it? Did your life get better after you did? Do you think you made the right choice? How often do you think about the affair? How much pain does that cause you?




www.talkaboutmarriage.com


----------



## farsidejunky

Thumos said:


> Sorry for the long delay in posting. My posting is going to be limited this week. As I said, several projects coming to bear all at once. Short update: I feel firm and good about my decision. Not overjoyed, because who would celebrate this? I don't. But I feel good. Not bad. I slept like a baby last night.
> 
> To the comment above, yes I believe people misunderstood both my tendency to have diarrhea of the keyboard and my delay as dithering. The thing is, I tend to process and think through writing. I always have. I can write and write and write. And I do. I used to do it for a living. And I write for myself all the time. So you're watching my mind process things as I write. It's a very useful way of thinking through thorny problems and I recommend it to anyone. The more you do it, the more fluent you will be.
> 
> Anyway, I think people sometimes mistake thoughtfulness and a careful precise process of reasoning for dithering. It's not. As far as the delay, I did keep outlining for folks my careful reasoning on this, and it hasn't changed. I think people for some reason mistook my delay during the heart scare and the pandemic lockdowns as excuses. All I can say is I wasn't about to add stress to my heart by initiating a divorce proceeding. And I'd have to be some real kind of **** bird to divorce someone (including a wayward spouse) with kids involved in the middle of a global pandemic that crashed the US economy.
> 
> Those were the facts on the ground this spring. I'm a big boy and can make adult decisions.
> 
> I'm not getting divorced tomorrow. It takes awhile.
> 
> But I am firm and resolved for the path forward and I feel great about it.
> 
> So here's an interesting detail: Had a busy and very enjoyable family weekend. Lots of fun activities with my extended family and my nuclear family. And at the same time, I also knew that I was going to tell her I wanted a divorce. I didn't know when until last night. This weekend, I also had a number of dreams -- all of them about divorce. Not a single one of these was a bad dream. Not a single one. They were all neutral to positive. They were never "fantasy dreams" about how great it was going to be. Just a running them that was resolved that it was the right thing to do. And that my burdens were easing dramatically. In one dream, I took a new job and my boss was an older woman, wise about the world. She learned of my situation and took me aside in the dream and firmly said, "I know you've been struggling. I need you to be effective. This is the right thing to do for your health and sanity. You know what to do."
> 
> I woke up feeling rested and refreshed after that dream.
> 
> I suppose the precipitating event last night was my youngest had a zoom call with his friend the OM’s child. I was working and my youngest came to tell me and said it was fun talking to said friend. And I said great and I was glad he got to do that. I can assume everyone here can think about what this is like, how triggering it is and how I only want the best for my son in spite of my own feelings.
> 
> And then he started asking for the thousandth time why his friend can never come over -- and he said “I really want to know." It was a very adult moment for him and right then and there I wanted to tell him exactly why, to level with him, to treat him with respect. I was completely unprepared and said that his mom and I would both talk to him about it. He said “so *_* can never come over?” And tears started welling up in his eyes. I said gently “no he can’t” and then he said “you’re being selfish.”
> 
> Dagger to the heart.
> 
> I have a great relationship with my son. He was upset and rightfully so in the moment, trying to process something that makes no sense with only the grid of a 10 year old to rely on. Spoiler alert: Later he and I sat on the couch together and watched a Marvel movie and he laid there with his head in my lap. He's a boy on the verge of becoming a man, trying to figure out the world.
> 
> When he said that me, in that moment right then I realized how my WW had just put me In this awful untenable position -- no matter what she regret she feels now. And that she simply hadn't done the work to address this. So a few moments later, I took my WW back in our bedroom and told her I no longer want to be placed in this position, it is completely confusing to our son, totally unfair to me, and now he’s at an age where we can’t paper over it.
> 
> And then without even thinking about it it just came out “and I want a divorce.” I didn't know I was going to say it until I said it.
> 
> As far as my WW's reaction to this, she was sad, resigned, cried. But there were no hysterics. No begging. We talked about the situation for awhile. She said it wasn't what she wanted, but she understood.
> 
> I slept like a baby last night. She didn't. I hope that doesn't make me sound cold. I'm not reveling in this. I just feel sure of what I'm doing.
> 
> This morning, she wanted to pray with me (if I can ask commenters here to refrain from speculating on the genuineness of this, I'd appreciate it). I do believe her renewed faith over the past year has been genuine, and I'm glad for her on this front.
> 
> That said, she also said some things this morning that only strengthened my resolve. It was nothing profound, just little niggling details that reveal she is still stuck in that "regret vs remorse" limbo that I no longer want to be a part of.
> 
> I know that many many people have been burned in the divorce process by a wayward spouse who already betrayed them. I'm not naive. I also know that there's a tendency to read things into a situation based on what an anonymous poster like myself has provided that just aren't accurate. I am watching and waiting to see how my WW reacts, what she does.
> 
> I know it's not how everyone would do it, but I'm going to arrange for a family lawyer consult and ask her to go along with me. I want to be above board and amicable. It's the only way I know how to be. If it burns me, or if she turns hostile, so be it. I'll deal with it as it comes.
> 
> I'm resolved. I'm moving forward.
> 
> That's all for now. I'll be back later for sure.


Damn, Thumos. Your son's pain is palpable from this distance. What a terrible situation she has placed the two of you in.

Count me as part of the crowd that saw "too much talk". That said, I am glad I was wrong. 

That fact that you want it to be over without trying to "stick it to her" may be the single reason you had to take so much time to work through things. 

In other words, what was once a curse may turn out to be a blessing. 



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## faithfulman

@Thumos - if you read some of the recent posts from the current big JFO thread on SI, you'll see why some posters here have certain feeling about SI being a place that is too soft on cheaters.

I don't entirely agree with that opinion, but you rarely see posters at TAM advising betrayed spouses to eat a **** sandwich and smile.


----------



## BluesPower

faithfulman said:


> @Thumos - if you read some of the posts from the current big JFO thread on SI, you'll see why we posters here have certain feeling about SI being a place that is too soft on cheaters.
> 
> I don't entirely agree with that opinion, but you rarely see posters at TAM advising betrayed spouses to eat a **** sandwich and smile.


Yes that is an exact example of what most of us are talking about. 

That thread you are talking about is horrible. I mean lets just say that the affair was ONLY 2 year long, OK. But the cuckolding of the OP is just horrible. 

Dude, just working his butt off, providing and she does that, for that long. 

My bet and we may never find out, it was longer or the was someone/others before that one. 

That woman is just really horrible. And the dolts at the other place are telling him to be nice to her???? WTF? 

REALLY, what is wrong with people....


----------



## sokillme

Yeah when are the people who said she was doing well and on the right track going to apologize now that it is so obvious that she is still FOS. I mean it's one thing to be naive to human nature but to get cheated on and still be that naive, it has to be a willful choice. But I suspect this is why a lot of them R, they are just not that bright. I know that is harsh but what else can you say? I mean if you have your head in your ass you can't see clearly enough to give others direction.

How about her - She will never divorce, she didn't divorce before when she was unhappy and she won't now. No you ****ing tried to humiliate your husband and **** him, but nope can't divorce. The stigma over divorce has to end. I mean it's OK to do despicable evil but you can't divorce?!

Sometime I wonder how the worlds is in such a state, then I read these thread and think, oh. 

God help us.


----------



## BluesPower

sokillme said:


> Yeah when are the people who said she was doing well and on the right track going to apologize now that it is so obvious that she is still FOS. I mean it's one thing to be naive to human nature but to get cheated on and still be that naive, it has to be a willful choice. But I suspect this is why a lot of them R, they are just not that bright. I know that is harsh but what else can you say? I mean if you have your head in your ass you can't see clearly enough to give others direction.
> 
> How about her - She will never divorce, she didn't divorce before when she was unhappy and she won't now. No you **ing tried to humiliate your husband and ** him, but nope can't divorce. The stigma over divorce has to end. I mean it's OK to do despicable evil but you can't divorce?!
> 
> Sometime I wonder how the worlds is in such a state, then I read these thread and think, oh.
> 
> God help us.


I am hoping that he exposes in detail, to church people, and the "wonderful pastor" that has been counseling her. That guy is a buffoon. Like most of them are. I just wish I could see their face if he did that. 

Then the other one, Larson, bless his heart, he just cannot figure out why he is unhappy reconciling with an unremorseful cheater. He just cannot figure it out. 

I am not even going to try on that one, I just feel bad for him. He will figure it our in several more years of living in misery. 

Those to threads are just horrible.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

sokillme said:


> *Anyone who left and divorced who post on here, here are 4 questions -*
> 
> Did your life get better?
> Do you think you made the right choice?
> How often do you think about the affair?
> How much pain does that cause you?
> 
> Mr Thumos is already starting to experience the same thing.


It got way better, but of course I fell off a ****ing cliff and hit every sharp rock on the way down, so not that surprising.

I don't know how much of a choice it was since it was mutual...she was checked out so she cheated, I was checked out once I found out she was cheating... The marriage was over after that, there was only one choice.

Hardly ever.

Absolutely none.

I really don't know how someone can move past infidelity with a partner, especially men. I felt like she ripped my balls off and put them through a dicer. I don't know how you get rid of that feeling, no matter how many hours of counselling (and why should I be forced into counseling because she ****ed up?).I don't know what would be worse, other knowing I stayed or myself living with it. No ***** is worth that mind ****.


----------



## sokillme

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> It got way better, but of course I fell off a ****ing cliff and hit every sharp rock on the way down, so not that surprising.
> 
> I don't know how much of a choice it was since it was mutual...she was checked out so she cheated, I was checked out once I found out she was cheating... The marriage was over after that, there was only one choice.
> 
> Hardly ever.
> 
> Absolutely none.
> 
> I really don't know how someone can move past infidelity with a partner, especially men. I felt like she ripped my balls off and put them through a dicer. I don't know how you get rid of that feeling, no matter how many hours of counselling (and why should I be forced into counseling because she *ed up?).I don't know what would be worse, other knowing I stayed or myself living with it. No ** is worth that mind ****.


You should post this in the thread I started on the thinking of divorce section.


----------



## Thumos

Yeah in particular, faithfulman, with the AHGuy thread. It's just gobsmacking that anyone is still trying to push for R in his case. Really amazing. 

And then there's jlarson coming back after 4 years (sounds familiar) to tell everyone the "lessons" he's learned about reconciliation - which basically amounts to "I'm extremely unhappy and would like nothing more than for her to cheat again so we can end it." That thread was a great eye opener for me and more confirmation I'm on the right track!

It's almost like the more people on SI who are giving straight talk, which I think is increasing, the more you see the reconcilation at all costs crowd pushing back harder over there.


----------



## Thumos

BluesPower said:


> Dude, just working his butt off, providing and she does that, for that long.
> 
> My bet and we may never find out, it was longer or the was someone/others before that one.
> 
> That woman is just really horrible. And the dolts at the other place are telling him to be nice to her???? WTF?


Just amazing. I'm astounded at the duplicity of some of the posters over there. 

He's mentioned several times that he's getting a lot of insight from my posts, so I hope I'm helping and it looks like I'm cutting through the noise over there. 

I did tell him today that while he should maintain a hard 180/gray rock attitude with her, there's no need to be intentionally cruel. I think it's important to walk away with head held high and values intact. 

That's what I'm trying to do with my own WW. It's far better for the kids that way. They'll know exactly why we broke up anyway.


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos, you are doing good work over there.

Now that AHGuy is on the right track, maybe you can save *36yearsgone.*


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I did tell him today that while he should maintain a hard 180/gray rock attitude with her, there's no need to be intentionally cruel. I think it's important to walk away with head held high and values intact.
> 
> That's what I'm trying to do with my own WW. It's far better for the kids that way. They'll know exactly why we broke up anyway.


The word is clinical.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Galabar01 said:


> Thumos, you are doing good work over there.
> 
> Now that AHGuy is on the right track, maybe you can save *36yearsgone.*


Trying to help that guy is a frustrating way to kill some time.


----------



## OddOne

Wondering who in their right mind would actually want to read that book he's supposedly writing.


----------



## OddOne

Thumos said:


> There are a couple of posters on SI that the condescending prick label fits perfectly. I can think of a few. Heck, I may resemble that remark myself


Mostly thinking of people like OwningItNow. He or she seems to love implying to BS's they are wrong headed for having regret over having tried to reconcile. They just need to try more counseling is all.


----------



## Thumos

Nucking Futs said:


> Trying to help that guy is a frustrating way to kill some time.


AHGuy is in shock and wants to get better. I don’t think 36yearsgone does. it seems to go beyond his wife’s infidelity.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> AHGuy is in shock and wants to get better. I don’t think 36yearsgone does. it seems to go beyond his wife’s infidelity.


If that guy is even real then he is right where he wants to be. He reminds me of the cartoon character with the beautiful women who's response to everything is "Yes Dear". Even in the 40s these guys existed.


----------



## lucy999

Thumos said:


> AHGuy is in shock and wants to get better. I don’t think 36yearsgone does. it seems to go beyond his wife’s infidelity.


I do hope you use your powers for good around here and over at SI. You could help a lot of people.


----------



## RebuildingMe

OddOne said:


> Wondering who in their right mind would actually want to read that book he's supposedly writing.


I’m sure is a fiction book, just like his life.


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos, just a note, and I'm not a lawyer, but I think courts can/will adjust child support at any time if the wife goes back to court. So, I don't think you can rely on a child support amount that is agreed upon during the divorce. Lawyers, please correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Thumos

Galabar01 said:


> Thumos, just a note, and I'm not a lawyer, but I think courts can/will adjust child support at any time if the wife goes back to court. So, I don't think you can rely on a child support amount that is agreed upon during the divorce. Lawyers, please correct me if I'm wrong.


Yeah unfortunately I've heard this same thing. In my own state there's a pretty tightly circumscribed formula as I'm sure is the case in most places. I certainly don't want my own one dependent kid living in squalor half the time, but the chances of that are nil, and I just think the way child support is structured is generally ridiculous for middle class families and wealthier. 

Anyway, let it ride. I want out. I want my freedom.


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos said:


> Yeah unfortunately I've heard this same thing. In my own state there's a pretty tightly circumscribed formula as I'm sure is the case in most places. I certainly don't want my own one dependent kid living in squalor half the time, but the chances of that are nil, and I just think the way child support is structured is generally ridiculous for middle class families and wealthier.
> 
> Anyway, let it ride. I want out. I want my freedom.


My though is that agreeing to anything less than the state mandated child support amount might not fly (in the short or long term). Instead, like I think you mentioned, you should focus more on the asset split and alimony, which, I think, would be harder to modify.

I'm just imagining your wife saying to the judge "your honor, I agreed to the reduced child support, but find that it isn't enough to take care of my child," and the judge simply setting it to the state mandated amount (or the divorce judge not allowing the reduced amount in the first place).


----------



## jsmart

I really feel bad for AH guy. I’m assuming his lack of action has been because he’s in shock. Most of the info he has was given by the OBS. 

He hasn’t even had a one on one sit down like many have recommended. Instead he sends a notes that Steven wrote edited with the new found info that this was affair number 3 for POS.

That new info really rocked his WW. Just like Wallop’s WW, she had to verify that what they had was special but she learnedthe same thing. They were nothing. Funny thing is both of these WWs were virgin wives to virgin husbands. which to me is so beautiful. But they both through it away for wealthier men.

I would bet my next mortgage payment that AH guy’s WW was just as wanton. These type of WWs enthusiastically give the POS everything on their sexual menu. With her affair lasting at least 2 years, she took it much further than Wallop’s did. Openly Discussing sexually cutting BH off, plotting divorce when youngest was 18, and the cherry on top, having her BH drive 2 hours make their love nest comfortable and joking with POS about it, referring to her BH as a good tech. I’m sorry but that last one is unforgivable.


----------



## Thumos

My WW is my one and only. This was thrown in my face like it meant nothing. Once I let that sink in I really had no other choice but to move toward divorce. 

I may have already said this, but a friend of mine was talking to me this week (and this person is divorced) and they said "a year from now, or less, you're going to look back at this and wonder why you put up with it all in the first place."

And yes, I agree with you that AHGuy's WW had to have given the AP the full sexual menu. It just stands to reason. He probably only knows a fraction of it. What he knows is enough and I really hope he takes action now and doesn't delay.


----------



## Thumos

jsmart said:


> That new info really rocked his WW. Just like Wallop’s WW, she had to verify that what they had was special but she learnedthe same thing. They were nothing. Funny thing is both of these WWs were virgin wives to virgin husbands. which to me is so beautiful. But they both through it away for wealthier men.


Because hypergamy.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> Because hypergamy.


Let's not act like men don't do this just as much. It has nothing to do with a person's genitals.

Men have been cheating in far greater numbers for centuries, and leaving their wives for younger firmer women too. Now the only reason it was more men then women in the past is because of the greater risk for women before birth control, and the social stigma they faced But it just makes sense as those thinks go away so does the disparity. Besides it was probably always pretty close. Just wait until this DNA thing becomes more used. I bet we find 20% or more kids in the past history have different DNA then their listed fathers.

Gender has no monopoly on ****tyness. The fairer sex stuff is sexiest ********.

Here is the deal, I think 75% of affairs happen because one spouse gets bored. As terrible as that sounds. Then something exciting comes along they go for it because they can. But it's also a mistake to presume that any of these virgin wives cared about being with only one person. It was only circumstance that made it that way because they married very young. If they hadn't it's not like they wouldn't have just had sex with lots of guys, until the right one came along. Their priority when they were young was the Disney dream of getting married and living happily ever after. Then some 15 years later they did all that and are bored out of their minds.

I may have already said this on this thread but it's a mistake to think they cared about this one on only person like it's some holy thing that they will miss. Which is why it's also a mistake for a BS to feel like this precious thing that they both understood they had together was discarded because the AP was too irresistible. Nah, it was always just sex to the WS, and they decided they wanted to do it with someone else now. That is literally the amount of thought that they ever put into it. Like cooking dinner. So the BS didn't lose anything precious he lost his allusions.

To understand cheaters the thing you must always understand is their morals are morals of convenience not conviction.


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos said:


> My WW is my one and only. ...
> 
> I may have already said this, but a friend of mine was talking to me this week (and this person is divorced) and they said "a year from now, or less, you're going to look back at this and wonder why you put up with it all in the first place."
> ...


Thumos, you are going to find that you are in the driver's seat when you start dating again. A successful man at your age will have his pick of women. For me, I really only find women my age or a little older attractive. However, you are going to find a smörgåsbord of choices. My advice would be to be very picky. You will be the prize and the women will need to compete. Take your time and sift through all the options until you find exactly what you are looking for. 

Note that you are at the peak in the graph below:



Redirect Notice


----------



## Galabar01

By the way, I love the cauterizing truth that is Thumos over at SI.


----------



## Galabar01

Women online daters peak at age 18. Men peak at 50.


Both men and women tend to shoot for partners who are out of their league.




www.marketwatch.com


----------



## jsmart

Thumos said:


> *My WW is my one and only. This was thrown in my face like it meant nothing.* Once I let that sink in I really had no other choice but to move toward divorce.
> 
> I may have already said this, but a friend of mine was talking to me this week (and this person is divorced) and they said "a year from now, or less, you're going to look back at this and wonder why you put up with it all in the first place."
> 
> And yes, I agree with you that *AHGuy's WW had to have given the AP the full sexual menu.* It just stands to reason. He probably only knows a fraction of it. What he knows is enough and I really hope he takes action now and doesn't delay.


I notice that WWs that were virgin wives do NOT value the specialness that their BHs held for their wives. Women on average don't really value a virgin man but the opposite is not true. Most men feel that having a wife who has not known another man, is like have a precious gem but unfortunately feminism has convinced women that they should adopt stereotypical male behavior. 

We know AHGuy's WW was totally in love with her POS by the fact that she practically sexually cut her BH off. Going from 3 times a week to twice a month. Ouch! What leads me to believe that mr money bags was getting everything on the sexual menu is the type of man he was. A wealthy guy that went after what he wanted. 

Future faking is the best way to get a WW to really turn up the heat in the bedroom She was trying to win POS away from his BW but those of us who have spent years on these boards have read enough to know that WHs rarely leave for the OW. Now WWs on the other hand, most would leave if the man is willing. So many have to go back to plan b.


----------



## Galabar01

Thumos, when will you be getting the to an attorney?


----------



## sokillme

jsmart said:


> I notice that WWs that were virgin wives do NOT value the specialness that their BHs held for their wives. Women on average don't really value a virgin man but the opposite is not true. Most men feel that having a wife who has not known another man, is like have a precious gem but unfortunately feminism has convinced women that they should adopt stereotypical male behavior.
> 
> We know AHGuy's WW was totally in love with her POS by the fact that she practically sexually cut her BH off. Going from 3 times a week to twice a month. Ouch! What leads me to believe that mr money bags was getting everything on the sexual menu is the type of man he was. A wealthy guy that went after what he wanted.
> 
> Future faking is the best way to get a WW to really turn up the heat in the bedroom She was trying to win POS away from his BW but those of us who have spent years on these boards have read enough to know that WHs rarely leave for the OW. Now WWs on the other hand, most would leave if the man is willing. So many have to go back to plan b.


Translation people who have affairs are assholes who set themselves up to be used and/or abuse people and until they change that mindset that is what they are useful for. 

Following this line of thinking it is very evident that when it comes to stories like this the the OM is the one who understands this the best. He knows exactly what his affair partners nature is and her value to his life, and he knows exactly what he is a user and what he is doing. In fact most men have at least met these men and been subject to their mostly vulgar discussions about their mistresses. How they think of them exactly like toys to add to their collection. That brag about it without any shame either. It seems incomprehesable to them that there are a lot of men like me who think of them like vermin. Both the OM and the WW have a black hole where their self esteem. He chooses to fill it up by sexual conquest. Women like WWs are the easiest targets. Dudes like this guys don't want to have to compete with other men directly. They are bottom feeders, looking for scraps from others. This is not to say that some WW are not exactly like this as well but I think it's rare. There are WW who are well aware of their role and perfectly happy to fulfill it for attention. This wouldn't even be a terrible thing if shallow people like this didn't bring innocent people into their attention junkie lifestyle.

Most WW are completely delusional about their role in this mans life or even their value in general, though you think it would be common sense. It's obviously not because it always comes to such a great shock to them after the whole thing is over. In 99% of the cases and 100% of the case like AHGuy's thread there is no White Picket fence at the end, and that should be pretty clear from the beginning. If he didn't leave he wife yet, he ain't going to. Nope it's just the standard run of the mill affair. She provides some alternative sex at the expense of some easy lies in the form of ego boosting. But let me tell you, the OM is chirping with his guy friends about what a **** she is, and all manor of sexual things he was able to get her to do. That's harsh but I worked in a private member golf club locker room in my teens, where there was a bar and this was a topic of discussion more then you would expect, and it was a common source of laughter by half the men their, the other half would find some excuse to leave. (Again don't shoot the messenger, ask any man and he will tell you he has been around that conversation.) The husband was looked upon with pity but also experiencing the inevitable consequences of being silly enough to marry a women like her. (Again just telling you like I heard it.) Basically she was nothing more then a POA to this guy. What she doesn't understand is once her husband is done with her finding a stable decent man "sucker" 10,15,20 years older then whens she first did is going to be a hell of a lot harder. 

What's even more interesting is that the BH also seems to have no idea who his wife is or her nature. It always seems like a shock to him is well. Again the AM understands her nature 100x more then her husband does. Often even after the fact though, which makes me think some of this is willfully so. I mean look at some off the advice people give after being cheated on multiple times. I'm sorry but some people are just stupid. His wife is the women that most guys understand is way too friendly at parties. The one who the more emotionally sophisticated (manipulative) guys relegate to plan B at those parties after they strike out with the women they are really after. The kind of women they know how to play. The women whose stays with the so call Bad Boy which really means she doesn't have enough self esteem to expect more and cries about it. 

In these cases I think some times people get married so young that it's too early for these patterns to solidify and they do during the marriage themselves. Which may explain why both people in the marriage seem so shocked by consequences and aftermaths that most people could see a mile away from. The OM being an outsider is always feeling around and he hits on the OW who is often times is inexperienced to understand who he is. But that is no excuse, she knows it's wrong. 

In other situations this is the inevitable consequence of the Nice Guy finally getting the girl who always dates the bad boys. She is ready for kids and thinks he will make a stable father and provider. She just reverts back to her old pattern because she is bored, or what her husband provides is no longer her priority. Or maybe she never changed she was just really good at hiding it, and the BH was really out of touch with reality. Again sometimes willfully so. 

Hell even after it all comes to light, there are still guys who refuse to see it. 

Now that is some really cynical stuff I just wrote. I know it. But that is probably the closest description of the reality of the situation then you will get on most of these boards. Any one who cheats or is cheating would be wise to understand it.


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## Thumos

Galabar01 said:


> Thumos, when will you be getting the to an attorney?


I'm trying to decide between getting my own atty, going to a mediator with my wife, or doing a third party service (which is the cheapest option). I've never been divorced before. It's a lot to take in. I started filling out the child support calculator in my state last night. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I talked to someone who used a third party service in an infidelity situation. They got 50/50 custody, split assets evenly and are paying a small amount of child support. The whole thing cost $500. I'm not poor, but not wealthy. Saving money and doing it clean would be preferable.


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## Galabar01

Thumos said:


> I'm trying to decide between getting my own atty, going to a mediator with my wife, or doing a third party service (which is the cheapest option). I've never been divorced before. It's a lot to take in. I started filling out the child support calculator in my state last night. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I talked to someone who used a third party service in an infidelity situation. They got 50/50 custody, split assets evenly and are paying a small amount of child support. The whole thing cost $500. I'm not poor, but not wealthy. Saving money and doing it clean would be preferable.


Maybe an initial consultation with your own attorney to get a ballpark idea of what to expect?


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## TAMAT

jsmart, wrote... *She was trying to win POS away from his BW but those of us who have spent years on these boards have read enough to know that WHs rarely leave for the OW. *

The OM knows the damage an affair does to a WW and oddly enough does not want damaged goods. This seems to be more true for women from stable relationships with decent and honest husbands. 

It must be the most shocking feeling in the world when a WW realizes the OM was a massive liar, his word is meaningless and she has no way back.


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## Thumos

I know a couple of attys and judges. Divorce attys make a mint out of extending out divorce fights for billable hours. So I'm a bit skeptical of divorce attys and wonder if a consult is just a way for them to get their hooks into you.

It seems they might be a bit like the reverse of marital counselors - both with a vested interest in dragging something out. MC's want to "save the marriage" and spend years doing it. Divorce attys want to get as many billable hours out of the divorce process as they can - kinda like the interminable "Jarndyce & Jarndyce" in Bleak House.


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## jsmart

TAMAT said:


> jsmart, wrote... *She was trying to win POS away from his BW but those of us who have spent years on these boards have read enough to know that WHs rarely leave for the OW.
> 
> The OM knows the damage an affair does to a WW and oddly enough does not want damaged goods.* This seems to be more true for women from stable relationships with decent and honest husbands.
> 
> It must be the most shocking feeling in the world when a WW realizes the OM was a massive liar, his word is meaningless and she has no way back.


Most OM instinctively know that a WW is not a woman you wife up. They will future fake to keep the porn level sex going but when push comes to shove, most will choose their BWs. Even the ones that end up getting divorce, would rather get a new woman than to wife up a woman willing to abandon her marriage and family. There are countless threads on LS to prove that out. 

of course there are exceptions of men who are willing to dump their BW and family for another man’s WW but it’s not common.

After the carnage of an affair, WWs that thought they were going to run off with OM but instead find out they were just cheap ass, are damaged goods. They have detached from their BH, so they can’t be remorseful, they’re poor mothers because their minds are consumed by OM. That last point is also on view through countless threads of WWs pining away and even admitting being distracted from their own kids. 
Now tell me, who in there right mind is going to R with a WW who’s broken hearted for OM? A woman who would jump at the chance to run off with OM, even after he exposed his true self.


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## sokillme

jsmart said:


> Most OM instinctively know that a WW is not a woman you wife up. They will future fake to keep the porn level sex going but when push comes to shove, most will choose their BWs. Even the ones that end up getting divorce, would rather get a new woman than to wife up a woman willing to abandon her marriage and family. There are countless threads on LS to prove that out.
> 
> of course there are exceptions of men who are willing to dump their BW and family for another man’s WW but it’s not common.
> 
> After the carnage of an affair, WWs that thought they were going to run off with OM but instead find out they were just cheap ass, are damaged goods. They have detached from their BH, so they can’t be remorseful, they’re poor mothers because their minds are consumed by OM. That last point is also on view through countless threads of WWs pining away and even admitting being distracted from their own kids.
> Now tell me, who in there right mind is going to R with a WW who’s broken hearted for OM? A woman who would jump at the chance to run off with OM, even after he exposed his true self.


BW's are cheaper and that is how these guys think. Never mistake it's some kind of loyalty. They have only one loyalty, themselves.


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## Galabar01

Thumos said:


> I know a couple of attys and judges. Divorce attys make a mint out of extending out divorce fights for billable hours. So I'm a bit skeptical of divorce attys and wonder if a consult is just a way for them to get their hooks into you.
> 
> It seems they might be a bit like the reverse of marital counselors - both with a vested interest in dragging something out. MC's want to "save the marriage" and spend years doing it. Divorce attys want to get as many billable hours out of the divorce process as they can - kinda like the interminable "Jarndyce & Jarndyce" in Bleak House.


I think a couple of hours of an attorney's time would be worth it, just to make sure you aren't making any mistakes.


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## jlg07

I agree with @Galacar01 -- just use them to get the plan together, vet what YOU want to do. You don't need to do everything through them, but it may be good to have them "just in case"


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## QuickerPickerUpper

Unnecessary thread jack  apologies @Thumos


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## Affaircare

I do not want to enter into a WW bashing contest here. Our goal, first and foremost on this thread, is helping @Thumos. But I will say that having been a person who had a very abusive childhood and first marriage, I concur with one thing: that is not an excuse for acting poorly in adulthood. Okay...yes...it would explain how you got to this ****ty place but speaking as a survivor, when the day comes that you're an adult, you have to say "Man, I am a mess. I'm not seeing things straight. I need to get in some counseling and take care of myself cuz my parents didn't do that for me." So in a summary, I agree that as an adult, you are personally responsible to recognize you need help AND to do the hard work to fix your own self (with therapy). Continuing to blame a bad childhood, in my opinion, is not a reason...it's an excuse to continue to behave poorly. Now what it does do, for me, is that I can have some compassion to the point of say that I "get" why it is difficult or painful or hard... You know, I can see the human being in a WW. But in simple terms, they are personally responsible to recognize they are broke and make the effort to fix.

Now...on to @Thumos ! You wrote:


> I'm trying to decide between getting my own atty, going to a mediator with my wife, or doing a third party service (which is the cheapest option). I've never been divorced before. It's a lot to take in. I started filling out the child support calculator in my state last night. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I talked to someone who used a third party service in an infidelity situation. They got 50/50 custody, split assets evenly and are paying a small amount of child support. The whole thing cost $500. I'm not poor, but not wealthy. Saving money and doing it clean would be preferable.


A lot of this answer depends on your WW. If she's willing to be even close to reasonable, I would recommend agreeing one whatever you can agree on, going to a mediator to see if they can talk some sense into you both, and then each having an attorney review it. To my mind, "close to reasonable" means that you both realize and accept that BOTH OF YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE SOMETHING THAT IS DEEPLY PRECIOUS TO YOU. You may think that custody is the hill to die on and in real life you don't want to not have your kids half the time...but that's not realistic. You are going to lose half of the time you currently have with your children that is deeply precious to you. She may think that her lifestyle is the hill to die on and she doesn't want to get less than she thinks she deserves. Well...she is going to lose half of her lifestyle because the two of you together have a lot more earning power than just her by herself. 

Now, if she is willing to list all the assets AND DEBTS, and take her fair share of both but also give you your fair share of both...if she is willing to work out something that is close to what the kids prefer AND 50/50...if she is willing to give up X to get Y and you're willing to let her have Y to keep X....then agree to what you can agree on before you see any attorney. I mean, you're not stupid, @Thumos and neither is she. If you run real numbers in the calculator, and you read the divorce laws in your state, and she is offering something that is pretty fair and not too far off, that you feel you can work with, then I say agree to what you can. There are going to be some things you just can NOT agree on--not necessarily out of nastiness but because you both want it or because you see it one way and she sees the same law another way. Okay agree to put those aside and let a mediator help you on those. Try to keep those to a minimum and what'll happen is that the mediator will say "Alright, the law is applied this way and usually the judges do it like this *__ and _*" and that's where you get some interpretation and someone who knows the judges and how they usually rule. So that's realism--not always but often you can ask the mediator, "Okay so how would YOU negotiate this?" and they'll say "Give this and Get that." 

My first H cheated on me. I tried for 2 years to save the marriage and he didn't want to stop cheating, so we divorced. We did not co-petition but only because he refused to agree on Child Support. We worked out custody (50/50 legal and kids "home based" with me and visited him whenever they wanted). We literally split holidays down the middle. I was an able-bodied person, and even though we were married 15 years I agreed to not go for alimony and just make my own money (and let him make his). But we had 2 kids and I thought it was reasonable to have CS to contribute to his children--he did not. We went to a mediator who told him "I plugged in the numbers and you'll own $1000 per month." I agree to $800 and he paid for kids' sports (football and baseball...fees and uniforms and gear). He agreed and we were done. Filled it all out and we each had an attorney we trusted review it. I filed, he was served, he responded by agreeing to it, and we were divorced in 120 days. Cost was for an hour of mediator and whatever we paid our attorney to review it.


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## QuickerPickerUpper

Double post. See what happens when I thread Jack?


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## QuickerPickerUpper

That thread Jack just extended the conversation, which did take the focus off @Thumos  better to stop before continuing. I still enjoy your posts @Affaircare


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## Thumos

I'm still here, extraordinarily busy with work right now. I tend to hyper focus, so I need to do that this week with my job. So posting from me will be light this week. I appreciate everyone's insights. Keep it coming.


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## She'sStillGotIt

*


sokillme said:



Here is the deal, I think 75% of affairs happen because one spouse gets bored. As terrible as that sounds. Then something exciting comes along they go for it because they can.

Click to expand...

*I have *always* said this is the reason most people cheat - because it's exciting, because they get sexual variety (and sex!) , and because they CAN. All the nonsense justifiations therapists pull out of their asses for why someone cheated is SUCH a crock of crap. But I think those nonsense reasons therapists dream up are REALLY more for the BS to help them self soothe because otherwise, they'd have to accept that their cheater did it because they WANTED to and because the opportunity arose.

Oh no - a BS can't have that! It's *much* better and easier to accept their cheater's behavior if they believe that it was due to "FOO issues" or "depression" (they're using that one alot, lately) or "neglect" or "abuse" as a child, and for the serial cheaters out there, a phony diagnosis of him being a "sex addict." They'll dream up excuses for cheaters as long as your insurance company is paying them the $200 per session most are NOT worth.

I have YET to *ever* read a post where a therapist said that the cheater cheated because he's a horny pig who had the opportunity fall in his lap. Not ONCE.


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## lucy999

Caveat: I work in the legal field so I am heavily biased.

Most consultations with lawyers are free. I think it'd be foolish not to at least explore the lawyer route to get an idea.

Sure, there are some unscrupulous lawyers out there, like there are unscrupulous people in every profession. Doctors, car salespeople, politicians, police officers, CPAs . . .

Listen, there will never be a shortage of people divorcing. Divorce lawyers will never have to worry about where their next vacation home is coming from. They don't have to chase money--money comes to them in droves. Lawyers make good money for good reason. And by your own admission, you aren't wealthy. A lawyer won't be interested in bleeding you dry. 

This whole thing could turn on a dime over a couch. I've seen it happen! 

You wouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight. You need to be prepared. At least consult with a lawyer. And even if it does cost you, it won't be much. Well worth the small expense. I think you'll quickly find you _could_ be in way over your head if things go sour. 

A consultation doesn't mean you have to do anything with a lawyer. You're merely gathering facts and information.


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## Thumos

Good advice and I'm working on it. I have a list of several recommendations in front of me.


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## Galabar01

She'sStillGotIt said:


> ...a crock of crap...


I think you should copyright that... 😁


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## lucy999

One Eighty said:


> As an attorney who used to do divorces, a lot, I can tell you that it is very rare to get a divorce consultation for free.
> 
> . . . .
> 
> So you will have to pay for a consultation. It will be a couple hundred dollars. The best couple hundred you ever spent though.


Thank you for setting me straight!


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## Asterix

@Thumos , It's been a while. How are you holding up?


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## Megaforce

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I have *always* said this is the reason most people cheat - because it's exciting, because they get sexual variety (and sex!) , and because they CAN. All the nonsense justifiations therapists pull out of their asses for why someone cheated is SUCH a crock of crap. But I think those nonsense reasons therapists dream up are REALLY more for the BS to help them self soothe because otherwise, they'd have to accept that their cheater did it because they WANTED to and because the opportunity arose.
> 
> Oh no - a BS can't have that! It's *much* better and easier to accept their cheater's behavior if they believe that it was due to "FOO issues" or "depression" (they're using that one alot, lately) or "neglect" or "abuse" as a child, and for the serial cheaters out there, a phony diagnosis of him being a "sex addict." They'll dream up excuses for cheaters as long as your insurance company is paying them the $200 per session most are NOT worth.
> 
> I have YET to *ever* read a post where a therapist said that the cheater cheated because he's a horny pig who had the opportunity fall in his lap. Not ONCE.


Any particular reason just the male pronoun is used here?


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## Blondilocks

Megaforce said:


> Any particular reason just the male pronoun is used here?


It is two years later and I'm just guessing here; but, I would say it is because the poster is female and her pig of a husband habitually cheated on her. But what do I know?


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## SunCMars

Thumos said:


> This is Thumos. Yes, the actual one from SI, not a sock puppet. You have no way of knowing that, obviously, other than tells like the way I write. Anyway, let the 2x4’s commence.


Yes you write well, aber, your do not spiel well.

All those smooth words, yet leave you in a rough spot.

Your wells are dried up, leaving you thirsty for that comforting well-being that we all desire.

I am a Sock Puppet, one known, with some, begrudged.



_Are Dee-_


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## Megaforce

Thumos said:


> Let’s distinguish between possibilities and probabilities. It is possible my WW is still unfaithful. It’s not probable. That’s not denial, that’s cold-eyed realism.
> 
> Do you guys have the impression I don’t know what‘s up here and that I’ve got some kind of illusions? For crying out loud, I’m planning to divorce her. Is that not clear? I had an appt with an atty before the heart scare, put that on hold and changed course bc I decided I wanted to pay off debt. Me. My decision. Because it‘s what I want. Not her decision.
> 
> If I had done what the crowd here recommends 3 years ago I’d be in a much worse situation financially and otherwise. Now I have a child leaving the nest, and the ability to establish favorable divorce Terms. I don’t know what’s confusing about this.
> 
> As for trying to convince me an affair is ongoing?
> 
> Really think it is extremely unlikely that the affair continued. I’m not naive on this front. I do random pop ins on her all the time to “bring her a Coke” etc. I also will occasionally change my plans at the last minute by canceling an out of trip town or rescheduling a meeting in town, “oh I had to reschedule, let’s grab a drink” so there’s no rhyme or reason to my schedule. There’s very little she can anticipate. I don’t share my schedule with her. And there isn’t any rhyme or reason - Because of what I do, it’s pretty haphazard because I telecommute and am home and only 2 miles away from her business. So i might be home, I might be working at the coffee shop across the street from her office, I might be ”in the city” for a meeting, or I might not be. You can never tell.
> 
> Her daily schedule, on the other hand, is pretty tightly circumscribed, and she is pretty much locked down in one place all day long. I also have access to this schedule and can cross check it. She can’t just get up and leave. Most of the shuttling of kids and so forth is left to me for that reason. She works with her sister who was devastated and angry with her. Her sister has been an ally of mine and a confidant until recently with the polygraph. If the affair had continued after D-Day, I would have found about it most likely. I cannot imagine my SIL would be consenting to allowing an affair to continue in her own state of mind feeling betrayed by her sister, but again it’s possible.
> 
> I’m not trying to make it sound like I’m babysitting her all the time. I’m not. It’s just that things are organically ”baked in” a way that would make it harder for her to do that. The reason she was able to have an affair before in these circumstances is because I was naive and trusting. I never thought my sweet, Christian wife would do such a thing.
> 
> I know with a reasonable degree of certainty my SIL would not tolerate the OM coming to the workplace like before when she considered him a friend who was just there as a client. She would also know my WW’s comings and goings.
> 
> If it was continuing she’d have to be a master superspy at this point. She is at home with me every evening. There have been a handful of GNO with a group of friends who don’t know about it and wouldn’t approve (and I’ve actually been along for those nights in any case bc she wanted me to go for accountability). There have not been many, if any, opportunities for her to continue. I realize burner phones are extremely hard to locate. I haven’t monitored with a VAR since the affair, but I’ve thought about doing it recently just as a check in.
> 
> I‘m willing to concede that she may have circled back around with him in the early days of shock but his OBS also knew at that point and my WW’s mother knew, my SIL knew. The affair was exposed.
> 
> The affair went on Before all of that because I’d never seen what infidelity looks like before. We have a tight community. Now I know. Also I was suspicious almost immediately but it just took a little time to get the evidence. I still travel for work (although not since the pandemic) but I’ve also taken care of things on that front while I’m away.
> 
> Additionally, my older child was suspicious when it was going on and confided to a friend about it. I don’t fault my older child who was only turning 15 at the time. My older child is not naive for her age now, either, and went through a period of being very angry with her mother. if my WW were doing suspicious things while I was gone from the home, again I would most likely know about it.
> 
> Sure, my WW could have learned how to take affairs ‘underground’ but the chance of physical contact is extremely low. I’ve thought about potential blind spots for me. I feel like those have been addressed. There’s no popping out to the corner store at 11 at night like we read in other threads.
> 
> So the chances of them having anything more than text/phone contact (on a burner phone, not on her phone which I have access to) are slim, but I suppose it’s possible. The chances of physical contact are even slimmer. So then we’re left with .. what an underground affair continuing for an additional 3 years via text On a burner phone? It seems unlikely.
> 
> My MIL has been a strong ally and has continued to support me and has not circled the wagons. She was also suspicious of my WW and has expressed several times how she wished she‘d said something to me or told her daughter to get her head on straight. She didn’t and regrets it. Now, of course, she’s keyed in as well. Again, a tight familial community. If she had seen something, it is unlilkey at this point she would be looking the other way.
> 
> She only once “scolded“ Me after taking my WW to the ER last fall, and then immediately apologized and was mortified a few days later when I sat her down over coffee and laid out all the gory details. She obviously has an interest in keeping the family together, but has been nothing but supportive of me and has said whatever I decide I’ll always be welcome in her home. She’s actually a dream MIL and always has been. I actually know this isn’t ****** because of how she treated one of her other son in law’s whose marriage broke up. She was nothing but kind to him and had him over constantly for dinners without the daughter (her step daughter in that case). I’m not trying to make my MIL sound like a saint, but she’s really been an incredible bulwark for me the past several years And that has not changed. I know others have bad experiences with in-laws circling the Wagons around their daughter. I have not.


If you are divorcing her( which I endorse. The woman is a true miscreant. ), why bother with all these measures to interfere with her cheating again?


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## Megaforce

Thumos said:


> No I was not. It’s all a blur. I think I read maybe one or two posts there. The only post I really remember reading during her affair was a “standard evidence post” that taught you how to set up a VAR. This was after I’d already hacked her phone account and after I’d already confronted her with phone records (that’s when she managed to convince me for a few weeks that I’d falsely accused her). I think that VAR post might have been here. In any case, I didn’t start posting and asking for advice until last August.


I hate when they do the " falsely accused " bit. Very common, though, and it gives one some insight into exactly what type person he is dealing with.


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## Megaforce

So, did this guy pull the trigger and divorce? I always marveled at how adamant he was in advising others yet how he just kept spinning his wheels.


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## RebuildingMe

Megaforce said:


> So, did this guy pull the trigger and divorce? I always marveled at how adamant he was in advising others yet how he just kept spinning his wheels.


No, wheels are still spinning and will be for the rest of his life, unfortunately.


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## Marc878

Thumos said:


> I have to agree with this. I feel terrible for him. His wife actually hit him on the head the other day accusing HIM of being unfaithful, and now he may have a detached retina as a result. So physical abuse on top of mental and emotional and psychological abuse. I'm a Christian, too, and frankly I think that plays into far too many "false R" situations. I think unfortunately many evangelical circles have gone over to the "feminist" side of things and are leaving men out in the cold when it comes to dealing with female infidelity.





Thumos said:


> I have to agree with this. I feel terrible for him. His wife actually hit him on the head the other day accusing HIM of being unfaithful, and now he may have a detached retina as a result. So physical abuse on top of mental and emotional and psychological abuse. I'm a Christian, too, and frankly I think that plays into far too many "false R" situations. I think unfortunately many evangelical circles have gone over to the "feminist" side of things and are leaving men out in the cold when it comes to dealing with female infidelity.


Nope, some use any excuse not to make a decision. It’s a choice he’s making.


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## Marc878

Thumos said:


> I think it’s possible to reconcile. I’m becoming increasingly skeptical it can be all that deep or satisfying as some people try to sell it. I think these cases of “stronger, better” bionic marriages must be exceedingly rare. How can something so toxic make anything better? At the same time I think divorce is likely equally as painful, certainly more impoverishing and more than likely bad for children in most cases. So it’s truly the horns of a dilemma for people like me. I think that accounts for POLF more than anything else.


The thing I’ve seen is repeated infidelity is not uncommon. There are periods of time you see one a week or more. I guess if you don’t mind being cheated on it’s ok?


----------

