# Why 80 percent of divorces filed by women explained.



## jlcrome

I've been brainstorming this and my conclusion is it's part of evolution. Ever since the beginning of mankind "men" were known for being "hunters and gatherers" while the women stayed at the cave rubbing two sticks together to start a fire getting supper ready. Now fast foward 1.6 million years later not much has changed. Men are known for their "breadwinning" abilities and women tend to the needs of the house. The 60's revolution came along bingo!! No-fault divorce, feminism, fair pay, women's rights coming out of the wood works. Now women don't need "A MAN" she needs a partner a teammate a friend that will listen......sigh. Men nowdays just can't keep up with evolution the end.


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## arbitrator

*Yeah! She sure as hell never rubbed sticks to start a fire, unless it was some other man's stick!*


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## Prodigal

jlcrome said:


> No-fault divorce, feminism, fair pay, women's rights coming out of the wood works. Now women don't need "A MAN" she needs a partner a teammate a friend that will listen......sigh. Men nowdays just can't keep up with evolution the end.


Uh, yeah, okay. So women should work low or menial paying jobs. If they do the same work as a man, they shouldn't get "fair" pay. And what is wrong with a woman wanting a teammate and friend who will listen? Perhaps you should read about John Adams. His wife, Abigail, was his touchstone. Reading their correspondence is an eye opener. And guess what? It happened in the 18th century - go figure! 

Maybe just keeping women barefoot, pregnant, and uneducated will keep them from seeking divorce. And, from a woman and feminist to boot, let us hope we have evolved past your mindset. Seriously.


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## FeministInPink

jlcrome said:


> I've been brainstorming this and my conclusion is it's part of evolution. Ever since the beginning of mankind "men" were known for being "hunters and gatherers" while the women stayed at the cave rubbing two sticks together to start a fire getting supper ready. Now fast foward 1.6 million years later not much has changed. Men are known for their "breadwinning" abilities and women tend to the needs of the house. The 60's revolution came along bingo!! No-fault divorce, feminism, fair pay, women's rights coming out of the wood works. Now women don't need "A MAN" *she needs a partner a teammate a friend that will listen*......sigh. Men nowdays just can't keep up with evolution the end.


And really, is this SO HARD?

I think it's more that women aren't stuck in bad (and sometimes abusive) relationships anymore; they have the ability to get out (divorce) and support themselves. For centuries, men could get away with hitting their wives and sleeping around. The wives didn't like it, but there wasn't anything they could do--they were stuck. But we don't have to put up with that crap anymore, thanks to the 60s revolution. The men who are evolved and are capable of healthy relationships are the ones who stay married, assuming that they are married to a similar female.


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## Lukedog

Times have changed. Not ALL men are know for their breadwinning abilities. If all men had that capability then all women COULD stay home and be homemakers and raise children. 

Times have changed. Homes are more costlier ( even the smallest of them ). Men need a vehicle to go back and forth to work in order to make those BIG BUCKS so they can bring home the bacon so the little woman can fry it up in the pan (good grief...you would think that through evolution men would have learned to cook that bacon too)! You now have to pay to maintain those homes....Utilities are astronomical ( not all of those homes have a fireplace where the little woman can rub two sticks together to make a fire)! Oh....and taxes! You have to pay taxes. Not only for the "great white hunter" of the household but now for the wife, the kids, the dog ( and the t- rex in the back yard)!

Now with evolution has come inflation. Incomes have NOT kept up with the cost of living. So, the little woman is either asked or it is expected that she work to bring in extra income so the family can afford to live, eat and get an education ( cuz let's face it, if you are both now working you can't really home school your kids, and your paying school taxes so you might as well send them to public school )!

So, with both of you now working, is it so much to ask that the "man of the house" now "man up" and be more of a partner for his little woman? Whats wrong with Taking on a little more responsibility for the household chores? The cooking? The cleaning? Helping with the children? Automobile maintenance? Paying the bills? I really don't understand why that is such a problem for some men out there. I'm not saying ALL men.....but some. 

Evolution? I think the cavewoman back then was just as tired of being taken advantage of, taken for granted, ignored, berated, not heard (and let's not forget the extreme sexual disadvantages she endured) as she is now. She just has a bigger voice now!


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## As'laDain

jlcrome said:


> I've been brainstorming this and my conclusion is it's part of evolution. Ever since the beginning of mankind "men" were known for being "hunters and gatherers" while the women stayed at the cave rubbing two sticks together to start a fire getting supper ready. Now fast foward 1.6 million years later not much has changed. Men are known for their "breadwinning" abilities and women tend to the needs of the house. The 60's revolution came along bingo!! No-fault divorce, feminism, fair pay, women's rights coming out of the wood works. Now women don't need "A MAN" she needs a partner a teammate a friend that will listen......sigh. Men nowdays just can't keep up with evolution the end.


um... yeah, um....

weak sauce.


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## Satya

Well, like nature's operated for billions of years, I guess that we'll just have to *evolve* to meet current times or just die off...


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## MJJEAN

Huh. I always thought women filed for the divorce because in most households it's the women who do the paperwork, organize appointments, etc.


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## EllisRedding

arbitrator said:


> *Yeah! She sure as hell never rubbed sticks to start a fire, unless it was some other man's stick!*


Rubbing a man's stick, I would think a fire would be the last thing to come out of it unless it is something like this:


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## Ynot

I have said it before and I have been pilloried for it, but we are in the midst of a societal revolution which many refuse to recognize let alone try to understand. So many aspects of "normalcy" are being changed due to advances in our technologies. Our day to day thinking has not been able to keep up with it. Rather than attempt to understand it, we blame the changes on this or that. Never bothering to make the effort to understand that this or that didn't happen in a vacuum, but were themselves a result of the advances taking place.
Women file for divorce because they are being liberated from the roles formerly imposed upon them by a society that has since changed dramatically. Men are being "victimized" from the standpoint that they are losing the privileges they formerly enjoyed from that same society.
Rather than sit and cry in their beers, men would be better off recognizing and adapting to the new reality. That is not to say men should allow themselves to be emasculated. But rather we need to rethink what "success" means today and change our thinking on how to achieve it, than to lament the loss of our former way of life.


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## arbitrator

EllisRedding said:


> Rubbing a man's stick, I would think a fire would be the last thing to come out of it unless it is something like this:


*Trust me! If a strange and willing skank wants to rub "men's sticks," she would undoubtedly evoke "fire!" 

Of one kind or another!

And if you don't necessarily believe that, then just ask my RSXW!*


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## username77

Women do a lot better in divorce, they're awarded custody 90% of the time. Whoever is awarded custody typically gets the marital home, and receives support (alimony and/or child support) from the other spouse. If women got shafted like men they wouldn't be so quick to file. It's really simple to figure out, it's a a result of the biased courts against men.

If a woman was looking at losing her kids, home, incurring massive debt, living in a 1 bedroom dump rental, and handing her ex half her pay for the next 18 years, she would think long and hard before filing.


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## Livvie

username77 said:


> Women do a lot better in divorce, they're awarded custody 90% of the time. Whoever is awarded custody typically gets the marital home, and receives support (alimony and/or child support) from the other spouse. If women got shafted like men they wouldn't be so quick to file. It's really simple to figure out, it's a a result of the biased courts against men.
> 
> If a woman was looking at losing her kids, home, incurring massive debt, living in a 1 bedroom dump rental, and handing her ex half her pay for the next 18 years, she would think long and hard before filing.


It really irritates me to hear broad generalization like this. It really depends on the state you live in. In my state you have to be a really really really bad parent to not get 50/50 custody. Child support is done by calculation, and only until child graduates from high school. Spousal support is mainly just rehabilitative if one partner stayed home to take care of kids for a long time. One spouse can keep marital property, sure, but only if they earn a salary great enough to pay the mortgage on their own and after splitting equity with the other partner. 

A way to avoid paying any support is to manage your relationship/marriage so that you are with sometime who also has a job and could support themselves in the event of a divorce.


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## dadstartingover

LOL... you kicked the hornet's nest with this one, jlcrome.

If you want to dig deeper into the divorce numbers game, chew on this one: For all divorces, the rate at which the woman files is anywhere from 70 - 80%, depending on the study. But what if the woman has a university degree? In those cases, the woman files NINETY percent of the time. Wow.

So, what is going on here? I think it's simple.

A lot of men throw the 1950's out there as this Shangri-La of marriage past. Woman stays at home. Man goes out and earns money. They both provide for the family unit in their own way. Divorce levels much lower as a result. Okay... Sounds simple enough, but why did the woman hang around then and not now?

She didn't have a choice! If she has her an "eat pray love" moment and decides "Wow, this relationship is not fulfilling in any way" and files for divorce, she will be:

1. Shamed by her community
2. Left broke and jobless with no means for caring for herself or her kids

So she's in the shackles of a ****ty marriage because of her peer group, her kids and her lack of job prospects. That sucks. 

Then the pill was introduced. Don't want kids? No problem. Enjoy the spoils of casual sex with no worries.

Then there was a push to get more women in universities. Now we have more women graduating with degrees... moreso than men, actually. Give women an opening and they will run with it and excel. 

Then we tell women that they have every avenue to work hard and attain high level, high-powered positions in the workplace. Now we have women making more money than ever, and in many cases more than their spouse (are they happier? Well... that's a whole different story)

So, knowing all of this... how have men evolved their "game" to accommodate the new playing field? Many haven't. "I work and pay bills, dammit. That's what my grandpa/dad did." is the mantra of the boring dad on the couch doing nothing. Sorry, that just ain't gonna cut it these days.

Ironically, you have guys that have responded and swung the pendulum in the other direction. "I'll stay home with the kids, change the diapers, do the housework, help with homework, pick up the dry cleaning, run the errands, etc". Guess what the reaction is? An even higher rate of divorce. As much as women may say they like that dynamic, the statistics don't bear it out.


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## Ynot

dadstartingover said:


> LOL... you kicked the hornet's nest with this one, jlcrome.
> 
> If you want to dig deeper into the divorce numbers game, chew on this one: For all divorces, the rate at which the woman files is anywhere from 70 - 80%, depending on the study. But what if the woman has a university degree? In those cases, the woman files NINETY percent of the time. Wow.
> 
> So, what is going on here? I think it's simple.
> 
> A lot of men throw the 1950's out there as this Shangri-La of marriage past. Woman stays at home. Man goes out and earns money. They both provide for the family unit in their own way. Divorce levels much lower as a result. Okay... Sounds simple enough, but why did the woman hang around then and not now?
> 
> She didn't have a choice! If she has her an "eat pray love" moment and decides "Wow, this relationship is not fulfilling in any way" and files for divorce, she will be:
> 
> 1. Shamed by her community
> 2. Left broke and jobless with no means for caring for herself or her kids
> 
> So she's in the shackles of a ****ty marriage because of her peer group, her kids and her lack of job prospects. That sucks.
> 
> Then the pill was introduced. Don't want kids? No problem. Enjoy the spoils of casual sex with no worries.
> 
> Then there was a push to get more women in universities. Now we have more women graduating with degrees... moreso than men, actually. Give women an opening and they will run with it and excel.
> 
> Then we tell women that they have every avenue to work hard and attain high level, high-powered positions in the workplace. Now we have women making more money than ever, and in many cases more than their spouse (are they happier? Well... that's a whole different story)
> 
> So, knowing all of this... how have men evolved their "game" to accommodate the new playing field? Many haven't. "I work and pay bills, dammit. That's what my grandpa/dad did." is the mantra of the boring dad on the couch doing nothing. Sorry, that just ain't gonna cut it these days.
> 
> Ironically, you have guys that have responded and swung the pendulum in the other direction. "I'll stay home with the kids, change the diapers, do the housework, help with homework, pick up the dry cleaning, run the errands, etc". Guess what the reaction is? An even higher rate of divorce. As much as women may say they like that dynamic, the statistics don't bear it out.


Not arguing with you, but what dynamic do women not like? The SAHD dynamic or everything else?
I tend to agree with everything that you have said, except I would argue that most of the divorces that have taken place from longer term marriages (based on the 1950's model) are a result of women actually embracing the new dynamics as opposed to being proof that they don't. 
Simply put women have many many more opportunities than they ever had in the past. I think in many cases it is that women have decided they need to explore those absent the imposed constraints of a marriage they entered into at a different point in their lives.
I also agree that way too many men have simply refused to adapt to reality and continue to fall back into the old time thinking of "supposed", as in marriage is supposed to last forever, she is supposed to do this and I am supposed to do that type of thinking.


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## dadstartingover

Ynot said:


> Not arguing with you, but what dynamic do women not like? The SAHD dynamic or everything else?


The million dollar question. It seems to be flippant and sexist to say "Women want it all"... but the data keeps coming back to that conclusion. In fact, if you talk to women that are very high up in corporate ranks and ask them to dish out advice to women looking to work their way up, you'll often hear "Ladies... you can't have it all." 

Case in point: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/07/why-pepsico-ceo-indra-k-nooyi-cant-have-it-all/373750/

They want to be a great mom. They want a strong partner. They want somebody who does their share of work. They want to excel in the workplace. They want a spouse who is as successful and just as ambitious as them (more success and more ambition is preferable). They want a manly man. They want a soft man. 

Something has to give.


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## She'sStillGotIt

dadstartingover said:


> If you want to dig deeper into the divorce numbers game, chew on this one: For all divorces, the rate at which the woman files is anywhere from 70 - 80%, depending on the study. But what if the woman has a university degree? In those cases, the woman files NINETY percent of the time. Wow.


Oh come on, now. Don't go infusing *fact *and *reality* into the same cliche whining some men have done for years. Their silly little argument that all women stay home and they're the breadwinners is a pile of horse ****. More women work than ever - and get stuck doing everything at home on TOP of it.

No wonder so many women initiate divorce. For a lot of them, it's nothing more than a life of servitude to some lazy ass, self-entitled douche bag.

Yeah, I went there.


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## Cletus

Ynot said:


> Rather than sit and cry in their beers, men would be better off recognizing and adapting to the new reality.


I want to know where all these hand-wringing, beer-sobbing, sad sack men are. Aside from a few internet trolls and red pill asshats, I'm not meeting them in real life. All of the men I know, from my highly educated and successful peers down to the high school grads working in construction from my rural neighborhood seem to be adapting and getting on in life just fine.


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## Cletus

It should be noted too that the divorce rate is dropping, that somewhere around 70% of first time marriages today last 15 years or more, and that higher education levels and later marriages for both partners correlate highly with marital success.

Focusing on the doom and gloom scenarios is to miss the actual real improvements to the state of marriage today.


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## sokillme

Well 80% file for divorce but when 50% of them cheat maybe lots of those men are lucky. 

You hear all the time their are no men, men don't want to get married, but then it seems when the women get married they are not happy anyway and divorce. So many good men get cheated on. Maybe these women shouldn't get married either. Why do that want to I wonder. Is it just because it's something they think they need to do? Do they thing it will make them perpetually happy? Do they think it will solve their problems? None of that is true. So of course they will be disappointed. Think how entitled the climate of today's young adults were raised under. Generally they were protected from sacrifice, hard work, failure, even introspection. But all those things are necessary to have a healthy marriage. Marriage is like growing a garden, you have to go out every day and pick out the weeds, both people do. Again seems to be a foreign concept. (That is both sexes by the way). 

I am of the opinion that marriage and postmodernism don't go together. For one thing the focus of most people in today's world is me, me, me. Once in marriage it needs to be us, us, us. If you have never done that it's hard to understand how to do that. Marriage is really about you giving to your partner, not about your partner giving to you. You can ask for stuff and I think you should, intimacy, emotional protection and nurturing, financial support, but if that is the reason why you married there are going to be times when your spouse lets you down, because they are human. It's your job to say, look you are letting me down, and if your spouse really believes that they are married to you because they are giving themselves to you, or this is about us, then they will step up or change. Most people don't see it that way. They see marriage like a service that their spouse provides for them. 

You can't have a happy life if only you are the priority. But that seems to be the predominant message. 

Sexbots, and VR are going to pretty much make marriage a rare thing I think anyway.


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## username77

Livvie said:


> It really irritates me to hear broad generalization like this. It really depends on the state you live in. In my state you have to be a really really really bad parent to not get 50/50 custody.



Generalizations typically exist because they're more or less true.

https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications/2016/demo/P60-255.pdf

Only 17% of fathers are awarded custodial parent rights



Livvie said:


> Child support is done by calculation, and only until child graduates from high school.


Again child support is given to the custodial parent, overwhelmingly women, even though men and women work outside the home nearly even now. In most states child support is paid well past 18 unless the child has become fully emancipated like joining the military or married. If they're working and living at home or going to college, trade school, etc... Child support is still paid (in most states), in some up until the "child" is 25!



Livvie said:


> Spousal support is mainly just rehabilitative if one partner stayed home to take care of kids for a long time.


This isn't' true. Women are the ones awarded alimony 97% of the time, even though men don't out-earn women by 97%, or even close to that.



> Of the 400,000 people in the United States receiving post-divorce spousal maintenance, just 3 percent were men, according to Census figures. Yet 40 percent of households are headed by female breadwinners -- suggesting that hundreds of thousands of men are eligible for alimony, yet don't receive


https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmajohnson/2014/11/20/why-do-so-few-men-get-alimony/#43b17ef454b9

Now that even a tiny fraction of women are forced to pay alimony there's a huge push to reform it now that women are near equal bread-winners.



Livvie said:


> One spouse can keep marital property, sure, but only if they earn a salary great enough to pay the mortgage on their own and after splitting equity with the other partner.


Again not true, many times the man is ordered to contribute to the maintenance of the home, even pay the mortgage on top of standard child support.




Livvie said:


> A way to avoid paying any support is to manage your relationship/marriage so that you are with sometime who also has a job and could support themselves in the event of a divorce.


Still no guarantee you won't be kicked out of your home, awarded minor visitation, paying through the nose in alimony, and lose all your property.

Fact is men stand to lose a lot more, women stand to gain a lot more in a divorce. If you made it 100% equal or women were in men's position you would see those % of women filing numbers drop significantly.


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## Ynot

Cletus said:


> I want to know where all these hand-wringing, beer-sobbing, sad sack men are. Aside from a few internet trolls and red pill asshats, I'm not meeting them in real life. All of the men I know, from my highly educated and successful peers down to the high school grads working in construction from my rural neighborhood seem to be adapting and getting on in life just fine.


Just look around this place. There plenty of bitter angry guys who still imagine all of the things marriage is supposed to be. Then get all upset when reality strikes.


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## Ynot

Cletus said:


> It should be noted too that the divorce rate is dropping, that somewhere around 70% of first time marriages today last 15 years or more, and that higher education levels and later marriages for both partners correlate highly with marital success.
> 
> Focusing on the doom and gloom scenarios is to miss the actual real improvements to the state of marriage today.


No one is focusing on doom and gloom. But if you want to use statistics, while over the divorce rate is falling. The rate for gray divorces has more than doubled. Also more young people are NOT marrying at all. So when those relationships fail, their numbers are not included in divorce statistics.
The OP posted an article that upwards of 80% of divorces are filed by women. There is no "doom and gloom" thinking involved in analyzing those numbers.
The state of marriage is the same as it ever was, however the need for marriage has changed dramatically.


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## AmICrazy43

I have to chime in here as well. I'm not sure what's going on today but something is definitely going on. 

The two women I've had relationships with over the last four years had very similar stories. They were both married long term, one 17 years and one for 15 years. They both initiated the divorce because they were no longer "attracted" to their husbands and wanted to date (have sex) with other men. They both suggested having an open relationship and both of these men resoundingly said "NO". Neither of these men wanted to divorce and tried to work on the marriage but it was too late for them. 

Both of these women went on sexual sprees and thought they were having the time of their lives. Both have children. One of them now regrets her decision. She feels that her actions have really messed up her child (now almost 20). She never found the man she was "looking" for and knows that all of her "fun" experiences were not only not worth the cost of leaving a good man (made great money, was never abusive, great father, good husband) and breaking up her family but that those "fun" experiences were really not fun at all.

The other woman (my more recent relationship which is now over) is not at that point of regret (although I think it's creeping in).

One common theme between the two was that they both wanted to have sex with other men because they felt bored and were no longer attracted to their husbands. They wanted to travel (more), go out to dinner more, do more activities, road trips, etc... The second woman's husband actually did all of the travel stuff but it was still not enough, so boredom...

Only based on my experiences and that of my friends I see some common themes. A man can never be enough. I'm not saying this is the rule of thumb here, just based on my immediate experiences. I feel that a lot of woman today need more than one man (and I've talked to quite a few women about this and they agree) to satisfy them. I don't mean that in a sexual way, just a way of life type of way. It's like they need to play Mr. Potato Head game to build the "perfect" man. Here is a partial break down:
- One for sex
- One for travel
- One for bars/restaurants
- One to be a positive role mode/father figure for the kids
- One to participate in activities or school events with the kids
- One to be irresponsible and party/drink with
- One that makes GREAT money to go on vacations 2 or 3 times a year with mini trips in between
- One that makes his life all about her
- One that is handy to help with their house or car
- One where he understands her busy work and custody schedule and adjust his schedule to fit hers

And finally, once all of these things are met, it's STILL not enough.

I just spoke with a friend last night. He lives with his GF (a few years now). She told him that he needed to make more money. He took on an overtime shift recently. She then told him that he works too much and doesn't see him enough and that she wants to use the extra money he made to go to Costa Rica. You just can't have it both ways. More money or more time? Time is money. I've also been told I need to make more money. I've been told I need to change my hair, my wardrobe, my way of life, my career...of course, this was not a problem in the beginning, it started about the half way point of the relationship.

I'm not trying to come off as someone that is bitter against women. I'm not. I'm just giving my experiences (and there have been more than two women that I've met in my life) and I see a lot of the same behavior. I'm not just talking about women I've dated. Friends, friends of friends or family members etc... So I don't know if it's a grass is greener mentality or a cake eater mentality. 90% of the men I know have always tried to work on their relationships and never even thought about straying. They've always seemed to put their partner first and try to work on any problems in the relationship.

Well, I'm ranting here and I'm sure I will get picked apart, but it's just my 2 cents. Again, I'm not bitter or even angry.


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## Cooper

Ynot said:


> I have said it before and I have been pilloried for it, but we are in the midst of a societal revolution which many refuse to recognize let alone try to understand. So many aspects of "normalcy" are being changed due to advances in our technologies. Our day to day thinking has not been able to keep up with it. Rather than attempt to understand it, we blame the changes on this or that. Never bothering to make the effort to understand that this or that didn't happen in a vacuum, but were themselves a result of the advances taking place.
> Women file for divorce because they are being liberated from the roles formerly imposed upon them by a society that has since changed dramatically. Men are being "victimized" from the standpoint that they are losing the privileges they formerly enjoyed from that same society.
> Rather than sit and cry in their beers, men would be better off recognizing and adapting to the new reality. That is not to say men should allow themselves to be emasculated. But rather we need to rethink what "success" means today and change our thinking on how to achieve it, than to lament the loss of our former way of life.


Along that same philosophical theme I have also said many times that women are evolving into the more dominant gender in advanced societies. Women are taking full advantage of all the resources now made available and are positioning to be the political and professional leaders now and in the future. Women are no longer living in the shadow of man, they are a force to be recognized and frankly appreciated or they will push you out of their way. So sure, more women are filing for divorces......because they can.


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## Jeffyboy

It may be because the legal systems favors women who divorce so they're more incentivized to do so financially. We're still using divorce laws based on when women didn't work. The legal system hasn't caught up to today's world.


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## sokillme

AmICrazy43 said:


> I have to chime in here as well. I'm not sure what's going on today but something is definitely going on.
> 
> The two women I've had relationships with over the last four years had very similar stories. They were both married long term, one 17 years and one for 15 years. They both initiated the divorce because they were no longer "attracted" to their husbands and wanted to date (have sex) with other men. They both suggested having an open relationship and both of these men resoundingly said "NO". Neither of these men wanted to divorce and tried to work on the marriage but it was too late for them.
> 
> Both of these women went on sexual sprees and thought they were having the time of their lives. Both have children. One of them now regrets her decision. She feels that her actions have really messed up her child (now almost 20). She never found the man she was "looking" for and knows that all of her "fun" experiences were not only not worth the cost of leaving a good man (made great money, was never abusive, great father, good husband) and breaking up her family but that those "fun" experiences were really not fun at all.
> 
> The other woman (my more recent relationship which is now over) is not at that point of regret (although I think it's creeping in).
> 
> One common theme between the two was that they both wanted to have sex with other men because they felt bored and were no longer attracted to their husbands. They wanted to travel (more), go out to dinner more, do more activities, road trips, etc... The second woman's husband actually did all of the travel stuff but it was still not enough, so boredom...
> 
> Only based on my experiences and that of my friends I see some common themes. A man can never be enough. I'm not saying this is the rule of thumb here, just based on my immediate experiences. I feel that a lot of woman today need more than one man (and I've talked to quite a few women about this and they agree) to satisfy them. I don't mean that in a sexual way, just a way of life type of way. It's like they need to play Mr. Potato Head game to build the "perfect" man. Here is a partial break down:
> - One for sex
> - One for travel
> - One for bars/restaurants
> - One to be a positive role mode/father figure for the kids
> - One to participate in activities or school events with the kids
> - One to be irresponsible and party/drink with
> - One that makes GREAT money to go on vacations 2 or 3 times a year with mini trips in between
> - One that makes his life all about her
> - One that is handy to help with their house or car
> - One where he understands her busy work and custody schedule and adjust his schedule to fit hers
> 
> And finally, once all of these things are met, it's STILL not enough.
> 
> I just spoke with a friend last night. He lives with his GF (a few years now). She told him that he needed to make more money. He took on an overtime shift recently. She then told him that he works too much and doesn't see him enough and that she wants to use the extra money he made to go to Costa Rica. You just can't have it both ways. More money or more time? Time is money. I've also been told I need to make more money. I've been told I need to change my hair, my wardrobe, my way of life, my career...of course, this was not a problem in the beginning, it started about the half way point of the relationship.
> 
> I'm not trying to come off as someone that is bitter against women. I'm not. I'm just giving my experiences (and there have been more than two women that I've met in my life) and I see a lot of the same behavior. I'm not just talking about women I've dated. Friends, friends of friends or family members etc... So I don't know if it's a grass is greener mentality or a cake eater mentality. 90% of the men I know have always tried to work on their relationships and never even thought about straying. They've always seemed to put their partner first and try to work on any problems in the relationship.
> 
> Well, I'm ranting here and I'm sure I will get picked apart, but it's just my 2 cents. Again, I'm not bitter or even angry.


I wonder if you met those types of women because you were looking for the same. Meaning you met women whose priority was lots of sex because that was your priority at the time. Like older women on tinder are going to be the kind who would leave good men for sex. I also wonder if porn contributes to this as well. I think women can get the wrong impression of how sex is from porn just like men. 

The danger in this is almost any women can find a man to have sex with them, so in this case the playing field is not even at all. If your wife wants to open the marriage it means she will be having lots of sex and you will be having a lot less most of the time.

The end game for these women is not good one though. Eventually they will want commitment again, but the guys who want to commit will be married still and the guys who wanted to have sex will have moved on.


----------



## Ynot

Jeffyboy said:


> It may be because the legal systems favors women who divorce so they're more incentivized to do so financially. We're still using divorce laws based on when women didn't work. The legal system hasn't caught up to today's world.


Very true. Perhaps when it does, we will see more men filing and the numbers will even out more. I think like most issues there is a pendulum swing, eventually the action/reaction energy will dissipate and we will reach some sort of equilibrium. 
For the moment, women have more choices. Society and its laws, as well as many men, have not adapted to the increased options that women have now. Eventually law will catch up. Hopefully the thinking of men will evolve as well.


----------



## sokillme

Cooper said:


> Along that same philosophical theme I have also said many times that women are evolving into the more dominant gender in advanced societies. Women are taking full advantage of all the resources now made available and are positioning to be the political and professional leaders now and in the future. Women are no longer living in the shadow of man, they are a force to be recognized and frankly appreciated or they will push you out of their way. So sure, more women are filing for divorces......because they can.


I think the elimination of sex as one of the driving force for men will change a lot of things. And technology is going to eliminate it, it already has with the availability of porn in some respects, and you see lots of men are choosing not to get married. Just wait until you can have a completely realistic experience of sex with whomever you can design. How will anyone compete with that. Not saying this is a good thing.


----------



## SunCMars

jlcrome said:


> I've been brainstorming this and my conclusion is it's part of evolution. Ever since the beginning of mankind "men" were known for being "hunters and gatherers" while the women stayed at the cave rubbing two sticks together to start a fire getting supper ready. Now fast foward 1.6 million years later not much has changed. Men are known for their "breadwinning" abilities and women tend to the needs of the house. The 60's revolution came along bingo!! No-fault divorce, feminism, fair pay, women's rights coming out of the wood works. Now women don't need "A MAN" she needs a partner *a teammate a friend that will listen.*.....sigh. Men nowdays just can't keep up with evolution the end.


Yes, this...

And 'listen' does not mean to 'hear', it means to 'obey'.


----------



## AmICrazy43

sokillme said:


> The danger in this is almost any women can find a man to have sex with them, so in this case the playing field is not even at all. If your wife wants to open the marriage it means she will be having lots of sex and you will be having a lot less most of the time.
> 
> The end game for these women is not good one though. Eventually they will want commitment again, but the guys who want to commit will be married still and the guys who wanted to have sex will have moved on.


I totally agree. I was just about to say the same thing as your second paragraph (it wasn't there when I first read your post). You are exactly right because at that point these women ask, "where are all the good guys?". Well, like you said, they either found a good woman or know enough to stay away from these types of women.


----------



## SunCMars

sokillme said:


> I wonder if you met those types of women because you were looking for the same. Meaning you met women whose priority was lots of sex because that was your priority at the time. Like older women on tinder are going to be the kind who would leave good men for sex. I also wonder if porn contributes to this as well. I think women can get the wrong impression of how sex is from porn just like men.
> 
> The danger in this is almost any women can find a man to have sex with them, so in this case the playing field is not even at all. If your wife wants to open the marriage it means she will be having lots of sex and you will be having a lot less most of the time.
> 
> The end game for these women is not good one though. *Eventually they will want commitment again,* but the guys who want to commit will be married still and the guys who wanted to have sex will have moved on.


"Eventually they will want commitment again".

Says who?
Is that a fact or a wish?


----------



## Cletus

Ynot said:


> Just look around this place. There plenty of bitter angry guys who still imagine all of the things marriage is supposed to be. Then get all upset when reality strikes.


Looking here for dissatisfied men is akin to looking for drunks in a bar. 

But is it an epidemic in the non-selection biased real world? The internet has done nothing if not bring great visibility to all manner of problems, real, imagined, and inflated.


----------



## Ynot

Cletus said:


> Looking here for dissatisfied men is akin to looking for drunks in a bar.
> 
> But is it an epidemic in the non-selection biased real world? The internet has done nothing if not bring great visibility to all manner of problems, real, imagined, and inflated.


So is the fact that upwards of 80% of divorces are filed by women real imagined or just inflated?
Then you wanted evidence that hand-wringing, beer-sobbing, sad sack men actually exist. I pointed out one place they did and now you dismiss that as self-selection. So are these men real, imagined or just inflated?
Truly it appears as though you are just being argumentative for the sake of argument


----------



## sokillme

AmICrazy43 said:


> I totally agree. I was just about to say the same thing as your second paragraph (it wasn't there when I first read your post). You are exactly right because at that point these women ask, "where are all the good guys?". Well, like you said, they either found a good woman or know enough to stay away from these types of women.


Here is the problem with the media's stories and the idea of where are all the good guys. The assumption is there are all these good women that would be perfect choices to marry. As shown by my post about 50% of women cheat, and your experience a lot of these women are bad choices to marry. The problem might not be there are so many men that won't marry as much as their are a lot of women who are not worth marrying. Frankly finding a good long term mate is a very hard thing to do for both sexes, and if you don't find one YOU SHOULD NOT GET MARRIED. 

I wonder if the women you described you were dating understand that actually THEY were the problem in their marriage. There attitude is why they probably should never be married again, and probably were bad choices in the first place. It's amazing they would tell you this as and any smart man would basically only choose them to have fun sex with at that point. Which is probably at least 50% of most single guys reason for dating anyway. Finding a man to have sex with you if you are a women is easy, but so is the bond of the relationship. 

Just shows that they still don't get it. If loyalty isn't a part of your understanding of marriage, you are going to eventually fail in your marriage. Again it's not like these men they were married to were withholding sex, it's just that the wives got bored. But no spouse man or women can compete with that, so if that is your priority you might as well just stay single and brake up once the newness wheres off. Again problem with that is as you get older it gets harder to find. Generally older people who have been through lots of relationships are like that because they have emotional problems or problems having relationships. These women have now put themselves in that pool. Good luck with that.


----------



## Cletus

Ynot said:


> So is the fact that upwards of 80% of divorces are filed by women real imagined or just inflated?
> Then you wanted evidence that hand-wringing, beer-sobbing, sad sack men actually exist. I pointed out one place they did and now you dismiss that as self-selection. So are these men real, imagined or just inflated?
> Truly it appears as though you are just being argumentative for the sake of argument


Don't get in a lather. It's just a conversation. We can work things out :smile2:

I assume the statistic is valid. Over much of the 20th century, 60% of divorces were initiated by women, 70% in states with no fault. The majority of divorces have been initiated by women for a long time now; this just seems to be a continuation of a long established trend. 


It's not the point to which I was referring. I was discussing the follow on conversation about the apparent sea change in marriage and divorce and the implications for men - some in this thread, some spread around the forum in other conversations, but for which I have personally seen little evidence for in my peers or those of my millennial children or their friends.


----------



## AmICrazy43

sokillme said:


> Here is the problem with the media's stories and the idea of where are all the good guys. The assumption is there are all these good women that would be perfect choices to marry. As shown by my post about 50% of women cheat, and your experience a lot of these women are bad choices to marry. The problem might not be there are so many men that won't marry as much as their are a lot of women who are not worth marrying. Frankly finding a good long term mate is a very hard thing to do for both sexes, and if you don't find one YOU SHOULD NOT GET MARRIED.
> 
> I wonder if the women you described you were dating understand that actually THEY were the problem in their marriage. There attitude is why they probably should never be married again, and probably were bad choices in the first place. It's amazing they would tell you this as and any smart man would basically only choose them to have fun sex with at that point. Which is probably at least 50% of most single guys reason for dating anyway. Finding a man to have sex with you if you are a women is easy, but so is the bond of the relationship.
> 
> Just shows that they still don't get it. If loyalty isn't a part of your understanding of marriage, you are going to eventually fail in your marriage. Again it's not like these men they were married to were withholding sex, it's just that they got bored. But no spouse man or women can compete with that, so if that is your priority you might as well just stay single and brake up once the newness wheres off. Again problem with that is as you get older it gets harder to find. Generally older people who have been through lots of relationships are like that because they have emotional problems or problems having relationships. These women have now put themselves in that pool. Good luck with that.


Again, totally agree and well said!


----------



## Ynot

Cletus said:


> Don't get in a lather. It's just a conversation. We can work things out :smile2:
> 
> I assume the statistic is valid. Over much of the 20th century, 60% of divorces were initiated by women, 70% in states with no fault. The majority of divorces have been initiated by women for a long time now; this just seems to be a continuation of a long established trend.
> 
> 
> It's not the point to which I was referring. I was discussing the follow on conversation about the apparent sea change in marriage and divorce and the implications for men - some in this thread, some spread around the forum in other conversations, but for which I have personally seen little evidence for in my peers or those of my millennial children or their friends.


I am not in a lather, I was asking you a few follow up questions. Now a few more.

What sea changes in marriage and divorce are you referring to? The drop in marriage rates? The time when people are getting married? The number of divorces?

My position is that there was a big uptick in divorces due to the fact that many marriages were formed under prior conditions. As those conditions have changed, many of those prior arrangements changed along with them. The sea change was not in marriage and divorce but rather in the conditions in which they were formed.
There is no denying that technological change is increasing at an ever increasing rate. 100 years ago we did not have cell phones, cheap reliable transportation to anywhere in the world, the internet did not exist and scads of other things which are today part of our day to day life. 
All of those advances brought tremendous pressure on institutions such as marriage which had been developed in an earlier time. That institution and the thoughts and assumptions that go with it have been slow to evolve to meet the demands of contemporary life. One result of that delay was the explosion in divorce rates. Other results include a decrease in the number of marriages, an increase in "living together" and an increase in the average age in which people marry.
So yes, we are living in a period of sea change. However I do not confuse the effect with the cause.


----------



## Red Sonja

sokillme said:


> Just shows that they still don't get it. If loyalty isn't a part of your understanding of marriage, you are going to eventually fail in your marriage. *Again it's not like these men they were married to were withholding sex, it's just that they got bored.* But no spouse man or women can compete with that, so if that is your priority you might as well just stay single and brake up once the newness wheres off. Again problem with that is as you get older it gets harder to find. Generally older people who have been through lots of relationships are like that because they have emotional problems or problems having relationships. These women have now put themselves in that pool. Good luck with that.


Yes, men do withhold sex in relationships and, they do it at the same rate as women. Men and women also cheat at (almost) equal rates. Read the studies.

Postulate all you want however it's best to postulate based on _facts_.


----------



## Ynot

Red Sonja said:


> Yes, men do withhold sex in relationships and, they do it at the same rate as women. Men and women also cheat at (almost) equal rates. Read the studies.
> 
> Postulate all you want however it's best to postulate based on _facts_.


I agree with you. The problem is that the postulation has nothing to do with facts and everything to do with beliefs. In this case the belief of what marriage is supposed to be as opposed to the fact of what it actually is.
Some people think that taking part in some sort of ritualistic act and then renaming a relationship a marriage changes everything.


----------



## MovingForward

AmICrazy43 said:


> I have to chime in here as well. I'm not sure what's going on today but something is definitely going on.
> 
> The two women I've had relationships with over the last four years had very similar stories. They were both married long term, one 17 years and one for 15 years. They both initiated the divorce because they were no longer "attracted" to their husbands and wanted to date (have sex) with other men. They both suggested having an open relationship and both of these men resoundingly said "NO". Neither of these men wanted to divorce and tried to work on the marriage but it was too late for them.
> 
> Both of these women went on sexual sprees and thought they were having the time of their lives. Both have children. One of them now regrets her decision. She feels that her actions have really messed up her child (now almost 20). She never found the man she was "looking" for and knows that all of her "fun" experiences were not only not worth the cost of leaving a good man (made great money, was never abusive, great father, good husband) and breaking up her family but that those "fun" experiences were really not fun at all.
> 
> The other woman (my more recent relationship which is now over) is not at that point of regret (although I think it's creeping in).
> 
> One common theme between the two was that they both wanted to have sex with other men because they felt bored and were no longer attracted to their husbands. They wanted to travel (more), go out to dinner more, do more activities, road trips, etc... The second woman's husband actually did all of the travel stuff but it was still not enough, so boredom...
> 
> Only based on my experiences and that of my friends I see some common themes. A man can never be enough. I'm not saying this is the rule of thumb here, just based on my immediate experiences. I feel that a lot of woman today need more than one man (and I've talked to quite a few women about this and they agree) to satisfy them. I don't mean that in a sexual way, just a way of life type of way. It's like they need to play Mr. Potato Head game to build the "perfect" man. Here is a partial break down:
> - One for sex
> - One for travel
> - One for bars/restaurants
> - One to be a positive role mode/father figure for the kids
> - One to participate in activities or school events with the kids
> - One to be irresponsible and party/drink with
> - One that makes GREAT money to go on vacations 2 or 3 times a year with mini trips in between
> - One that makes his life all about her
> - One that is handy to help with their house or car
> - One where he understands her busy work and custody schedule and adjust his schedule to fit hers
> 
> And finally, once all of these things are met, it's STILL not enough.
> 
> I just spoke with a friend last night. He lives with his GF (a few years now). She told him that he needed to make more money. He took on an overtime shift recently. She then told him that he works too much and doesn't see him enough and that she wants to use the extra money he made to go to Costa Rica. You just can't have it both ways. More money or more time? Time is money. I've also been told I need to make more money. I've been told I need to change my hair, my wardrobe, my way of life, my career...of course, this was not a problem in the beginning, it started about the half way point of the relationship.
> 
> I'm not trying to come off as someone that is bitter against women. I'm not. I'm just giving my experiences (and there have been more than two women that I've met in my life) and I see a lot of the same behavior. I'm not just talking about women I've dated. Friends, friends of friends or family members etc... So I don't know if it's a grass is greener mentality or a cake eater mentality. 90% of the men I know have always tried to work on their relationships and never even thought about straying. They've always seemed to put their partner first and try to work on any problems in the relationship.
> 
> Well, I'm ranting here and I'm sure I will get picked apart, but it's just my 2 cents. Again, I'm not bitter or even angry.


My XW wanted to be SAHM so quit her Job against what I wanted, hated it and could not manage it, I ended up picking up all the child care, over 50% cooking and cleaning because her day was so tough and had to earn a lot to cover all the spending she wanted to do but............... dont work late because that ruins her social life and her day was so tough and she needs a social life so has to get out the house. She did well in the Divorce and is currently being looked after by another guy(affair partner) while receiving a very healthy CS and Alimony payment from me and having plenty of free time since she only has the kids 50% of the time and frequently uses Babysitters.


----------



## AmICrazy43

MovingForward said:


> My XW wanted to be SAHM so quit her Job against what I wanted, hated it and could not manage it, I ended up picking up all the child care, over 50% cooking and cleaning because her day was so tough and had to earn a lot to cover all the spending she wanted to do but............... dont work late because that ruins her social life and her day was so tough and she needs a social life so has to get out the house. She did well in the Divorce and is currently being looked after by another guy(affair partner) while receiving a very healthy CS and Alimony payment from me and having plenty of free time since she only has the kids 50% of the time and frequently uses Babysitters.


Unfortunately, this happens all too frequently. One of the things with the last woman I was in a relationship with was along the lines of being looked after by another guy (me). Just as a note, this was not an affair type of deal, I would never do something like that. She was separated for a while before I met her.

My point is, she likes to travel and go out as often as she can. She bought a house that she can't afford. Her ex pays her $1000 per month in CS. It basically pays most of her mortgage. When her kids need something, say sneakers, she usually makes him pay for it. Isn't that why he's paying her money per month??? No, that money is used on her, not her kids. 

She kept wanting me to move in with her, I adamantly said no. Now, she's really not a bad person, but she certainly did have an interest in my finances. I honestly felt like she wanted me to move so that I would contribute financially to her household. As it stands now, when I would go over there when the kids were there I would go grocery shopping and buy food and cook the food for what amounted to four people (me, her and the kids). This happened weekly for over a year and half. I don't think that gesture was ever reciprocated unto me. Glad I said no.


----------



## Red Sonja

Ynot said:


> The problem is that the postulation has nothing to do with facts and everything to do with beliefs.


Yup, there is a lot of _that _going on in this thread.


----------



## AmICrazy43

As a follow up to my previous post I can give another example. I'm 43 now but when I was 22 I was in what ended up being a 12 year relationship. I remember being 22 and didn't have much money. I had just started working in construction and was dating the boss's daughter. We had been dating for a while and she always wanted to go out to eat. I would have rather cooked together but that's neither here nor there. So, I remember her wanting to go out to a restaurant and she was being PA about things at that time and I wanted to make her happy (I thought that was what I was supposed to do). What did I do? Well, I had a coin jar. I emptied it out and got on my hands and knees (with her watching) and counted out the change that I had. This happened on two occasions. I took her out to eat and she was happy.

Now, here is the interesting part. I was pretty broke at that time and I found out that she had saved up...ready for this...20K! So, she wanted to go out to eat, have me take her and have me pay for it with the change that I had when the entire time she had a whopping 20K in her bank account. I was floored when I found that part out.

Now, I don't want to say how many women I've dated and before anyone says, "well, it must be you because you seem to gravitate towards women that behave that way", let me just say this...I've met enough women and they all exhibit the same qualities, unfortunately. Not only me but plenty of other men I've met on jobs, friends or friends of friends, etc... Again, something very wrong is happening in today's society and it seems that no one is really very happy in their relationships.


----------



## NextTimeAround

username77 said:


> Women do a lot better in divorce, they're awarded custody 90% of the time. Whoever is awarded custody typically gets the marital home, and receives support (alimony and/or child support) from the other spouse. If women got shafted like men they wouldn't be so quick to file. It's really simple to figure out, it's a a result of the biased courts against men.
> 
> If a woman was looking at losing her kids, home, incurring massive debt, living in a 1 bedroom dump rental, and handing her ex half her pay for the next 18 years, she would think long and hard before filing.


It would be interesting to see a survey on how these families divided worked out.

When I look at my sister's situation:

1. She paid off his student loans that allowed him to become a medical doctor (ie a high paying profession)
2. He used the household budget to finance his mistress's nursing education.
3. When he started an office of his own, he minimized his salary and maximized that of his mistress to minimize his child support payments.
4. He wasn't into visitation; his mistress now wife was not either. the girls stopped going.

I do have sympathy for men whose wife had an affair and yet he still has to support her as the mother of his children. I think if the father wants custody and he is the faithful spouse, he should automatically get it.


----------



## Red Sonja

AmICrazy43 said:


> *Glad I said no*.


And that is the bottom line, you have a choice to say "no" when anyone wants to freeload off your coin.

The problem in our society is an apparent increase in entitlement attitudes ... I don't want to have to work, I want someone else's money and labor, I don't want to be responsible for myself ... both _men and women _do this in may ways.

The other problem are those people who don't say "no" to these entitled people.


----------



## Cletus

Ynot said:


> My position is that there was a big uptick in divorces due to the fact that many marriages were formed under prior conditions.


To what uptick are you referring? Attached is the graph of 144 years of per capita marriage and divorce in the US. The only really significant events in the marriage/divorce rates are WWII, The Great Depression, and the social revolution of the 1960s. 

Modern marriage and divorce rates are following trends that started between 1970 and 1980, and have don nothing other than follow a more-or-less linear trajectory for the last 40 years. Both marriages and divorces are substantially down.



> 100 years ago we did not have cell phones, cheap reliable transportation to anywhere in the world, the internet did not exist and scads of other things which are today part of our day to day life.


Yet there does not seem to be any indicator in the marriage or divorce rates that the information age has been responsible for any noticeable change that wasn't already a long established trend. If anything, the divorce rate takes a pretty big nosedive around the year 2000. 



> All of those advances brought tremendous pressure on institutions such as marriage which had been developed in an earlier time. That institution and the thoughts and assumptions that go with it have been slow to evolve to meet the demands of contemporary life. One result of that delay was the explosion in divorce rates.


What explosion in divorce rates? The divorce rate now is only slightly higher than it was in 1955. There was a big uptick post-WWII and a slower one at the beginning of the 70s, and nothing but decline since 1980.



> Other results include a decrease in the number of marriages, an increase in "living together" and an increase in the average age in which people marry.


Yes, these are ongoing trends. But since they seem to date to well before the information age, I'm hard pressed to find any causality. I'd be more inclined to blame the social change of the Cold War era. 

6 out of 10 adults who have never been married still say they want to get married one day. The same percentage says the reason that they haven't yet married is because they haven't found the right person or they are not financially stable - not that they don't agree with the concept. 

As U.S. marriage rate hovers at 50%, education gap in marital status widens | Pew Research Center 

Now I'm not saying that you're absolutely wrong - only that I need more convincing. The data doesn't seem to support the hypothesis unless you're pushing the start of the information age back to about 1980.


----------



## Ynot

Cletus said:


> To what uptick are you referring? Attached is the graph of 144 years of per capita marriage and divorce in the US. The only really significant events in the marriage/divorce rates are WWII, The Great Depression, and the social revolution of the 1960s.
> 
> Modern marriage and divorce rates are following trends that started between 1970 and 1980, and have don nothing other than follow a more-or-less linear trajectory for the last 40 years. Both marriages and divorces are substantially down.
> 
> 
> 
> Yet there does not seem to be any indicator in the marriage or divorce rates that the information age has been responsible for any noticeable change that wasn't already a long established trend. If anything, the divorce rate takes a pretty big nosedive around the year 2000.
> 
> 
> 
> What explosion in divorce rates? The divorce rate now is only slightly higher than it was in 1955. There was a big uptick post-WWII and a slower one at the beginning of the 70s, and nothing but decline since 1980.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, these are ongoing trends. But since they seem to date to well before the information age, I'm hard pressed to find any causality. I'd be more inclined to blame the social change of the Cold War era.
> 
> 6 out of 10 adults who have never been married still say they want to get married one day. The same percentage says the reason that they haven't yet married is because they haven't found the right person or they are not financially stable - not that they don't agree with the concept.
> 
> As U.S. marriage rate hovers at 50%, education gap in marital status widens | Pew Research Center
> 
> Now I'm not saying that you're absolutely wrong - only that I need more convincing. The data doesn't seem to support the hypothesis unless you're pushing the start of the information age back to about 1980.


Um, I couldn't use better data to make my case. If you don't recognize a decline to 50% from 72% as a drastic decline (78% decrease) in the number of people who are married, I simply do not know what to tell you. Similarly if you cannot understand that an increase in the divorce rate from somewhere around 2 to over 5 in a 20 year period of time is not drastic, I also do not know what to tell you. But its your data, so who am I to say?
FTR, no one said anything about the information age, those were just a few examples. There have been way more than those few advances. Things like birth control methods, anti-depressants, medical advances, to name a few that also contributed.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Cletus said:


> Don't get in a lather. It's just a conversation. *We can work things out* :smile2:
> 
> I assume the statistic is valid. Over much of the 20th century, 60% of divorces were initiated by women, 70% in states with no fault. The majority of divorces have been initiated by women for a long time now; this just seems to be a continuation of a long established trend.
> 
> 
> It's not the point to which I was referring. I was discussing the follow on conversation about the apparent sea change in marriage and divorce and the implications for men - some in this thread, some spread around the forum in other conversations, but for which I have personally seen little evidence for in my peers or those of my millennial children or their friends.


Here's a song for you:


----------



## Cletus

Ynot said:


> Um, I couldn't use better data to make my case.


When you said ...



Ynot said:


> There is no denying that technological change is increasing at an ever increasing rate. 100 years ago we did not have cell phones, cheap reliable transportation to anywhere in the world, the internet did not exist and scads of other things which are today part of our day to day life.


... I inferred you to be in the camp that seems to be blaming recent - as in _very_ recent - sociological changes on the marriage and divorce rates.

You are taking a longer view of the problem than that, so I have no objection. Something 50 years ago clearly started us on a downward marriage trend that has not yet bottomed out, if it ever does. We are not in disagreement. 

Back to the topic at hand - I'm a man. It doesn't surprise me at all that 80% of divorces are started by women. Not one bit. I don't think I'm stabbing my gender in the back when I say that we are responsible for more than our share of the **** in this world.


----------



## Cletus

NextTimeAround said:


> Here's a song for you:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uznnHd5thXE


Can't listen to the song at work, but am I to guess that you're promoting a cover of a Beatle's tune by Stevie Wonder? 

That's blasphemy in any religion.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Cletus said:


> Can't listen to the song at work, but am I to guess that you're promoting a cover of a Beatle's tune by Stevie Wonder?
> 
> That's blasphemy in any religion.


Cletus, I'm sure we can work it out. :nerd:


----------



## sokillme

Red Sonja said:


> Yes, men do withhold sex in relationships and, they do it at the same rate as women. Men and women also cheat at (almost) equal rates. Read the studies.
> 
> Postulate all you want however it's best to postulate based on _facts_.


Never said otherwise, you tend to do this a lot. Just cause I say one gender does something doesn't mean that I am saying another does not.


----------



## sokillme

AmICrazy43 said:


> Unfortunately, this happens all too frequently. One of the things with the last woman I was in a relationship with was along the lines of being looked after by another guy (me). Just as a note, this was not an affair type of deal, I would never do something like that. She was separated for a while before I met her.
> 
> My point is, she likes to travel and go out as often as she can. She bought a house that she can't afford. Her ex pays her $1000 per month in CS. It basically pays most of her mortgage. When her kids need something, say sneakers, she usually makes him pay for it. Isn't that why he's paying her money per month??? No, that money is used on her, not her kids.
> 
> She kept wanting me to move in with her, I adamantly said no. Now, she's really not a bad person, but she certainly did have an interest in my finances. I honestly felt like she wanted me to move so that I would contribute financially to her household. As it stands now, when I would go over there when the kids were there I would go grocery shopping and buy food and cook the food for what amounted to four people (me, her and the kids). This happened weekly for over a year and half. I don't think that gesture was ever reciprocated unto me. Glad I said no.


And this would be a good example of why there is a shortage of men. In the sense of what is the incentive for you to marry? Between you and her husband you have gotten the best deal, her husband invested much more in her and basically all he got out of it was the kids (which granted may still make him the winner) however then if you look it from what most men's primary want from a relationship, which a lot of guys would say is sex you get the best return on your investment I am sure. I am not saying this is right or even nice, but from a logical point of view it is what it is. 

Now I am sure she would come on here and say her ex was crap, but then maybe she wouldn't. You seem to be saying she has told you so, she was just used to him. 

Again I don't know if post modern society and marriage go together.


----------



## sokillme

Red Sonja said:


> Yup, there is a lot of _that _going on in this thread.


We are having a philosophical conversation, which means there is a lot of postulation, that is how it works. Why are you so sensitive about it?


----------



## Ynot

Cletus said:


> When you said ...
> 
> 
> 
> ... I inferred you to be in the camp that seems to be blaming recent - as in _very_ recent - sociological changes on the marriage and divorce rates.
> 
> You are taking a longer view of the problem than that, so I have no objection. Something 50 years ago clearly started us on a downward marriage trend that has not yet bottomed out, if it ever does. We are not in disagreement.
> 
> Back to the topic at hand - I'm a man. It doesn't surprise me at all that 80% of divorces are started by women. Not one bit. I don't think I'm stabbing my gender in the back when I say that we are responsible for more than our share of the **** in this world.


I do not share the short term view either. But I think the fact that both the marriage trend and the divorce trend are declining are very much related to societal changes that are increasing in velocity as time progresses. 
People (all people) have access to much more information than every before (so that from that standpoint the information age is influencing the trends). All of that previously, much more difficult to access information has lead many to delay or otherwise not marry at all, whereas in the past they may have married out of expectation or duty. Many of those marriages that would have taken place years ago, are now no longer occurring. The relationships may be failing at the same rate, but those failing are no longer showing up as a divorce.
But in general, people have greater knowledge and more choices than ever before. SO they may be making more intelligent decisions.
Now back to the topic at hand, while I agree we are responsible for our share of stuff in the world, I doubt very seriously it approaches 80%. I think that many of the changes that are and have taken place have benefitted women. Women are the intended beneficiaries of some of those changes and have in general done a better job of embracing those changes. There is a good percentage of men who simply refuse to acknowledge that the world they live in today is very different than the world they were born into or the one they were married in.


----------



## sokillme

NextTimeAround said:


> It would be interesting to see a survey on how these families divided worked out.
> 
> When I look at my sister's situation:
> 
> 1. She paid off his student loans that allowed him to become a medical doctor (ie a high paying profession)
> 2. He used the household budget to finance his mistress's nursing education.
> 3. When he started an office of his own, he minimized his salary and maximized that of his mistress to minimize his child support payments.
> 4. He wasn't into visitation; his mistress now wife was not either. the girls stopped going.
> 
> I do have sympathy for men whose wife had an affair and yet he still has to support her as the mother of his children. I think if the father wants custody and he is the faithful spouse, he should automatically get it.


See I just see this as half the population of men and women are *******s. I really and truly believe that. The problems is for some reason the *******s always seem to find a way to marry the non-*******s. They basically hide their nature to do it too.


----------



## Cletus

NextTimeAround said:


> Cletus, I'm sure we can work it out. :nerd:


No, I'm pretty sure it's over.


----------



## MJJEAN

Ynot said:


> So is the fact that upwards of 80% of divorces are filed by women real imagined or just inflated?


I filed for my divorce. I am a woman and part of the stats. Why did I file? Because my ex wasn't going to do it. That simple. We'd been living separately for 2 years, both involved with and living with new partners, and the marriage existed on paper only. ExH didn't want to be the one to file because filing costs money. He'd have left the marriage on paper only forever if I hadn't filed.

My friend, Cr, was the one to file for her first divorce. Why? Because her husband had disappeared for a year. He literally said "I'm going to the store, want anything?" and never come back. The family car was found at a bus station 2 days later. So, she filed in order to sever their relationship legally and get child support and custody established because she had 3 kids under 10. She filed for her 2nd divorce when her 2nd husband became an abusive alcoholic who pulled a gun on her. (She now has a LTP who is awesome, but no plans to ever marry again.)

My friend, Ca, filed for her divorce in self defense, literally. Her husband of 24 years lost his mind and started beating her. I don't mean he hit her, I mean he beat her. (She's also now with a great LTP and has no plans to marry)

Oh, then there is the divorce(s) filed by Cs. She married her first husband, divorced him when she caught him cheating with half their apartment complex. Married her 2nd husband, divorced him when he got into a bar brawl and police chase (in her car) while out on a date with his mistress. He was charged with felony assault with intent, fleeing and evading, reckless driving, endangerment, and more! While he was in jail, she filed. (She is deceased. She remarried her 2nd husband when he got out of jail. He stabbed her to death 8 years ago today while they were at a hotel on their honeymoon.)

My friend, T, filed for her divorce because her husband wouldn't get a job for over a year and then took off out of state to live with his family, leaving her holding the legal bag. (She's also living with a LTP and has no plans to marry)

My buddy, D, filed for her divorce when her husband left right after their child graduated high school to move in with his mistress of 11 years. (Last I heard, she spiraled down hard and is with some jerk up north)

So, yeah, the numbers say women file. What the numbers aren't telling us is the why behind it.


----------



## naiveonedave

MJJEAN said:


> I filed for my divorce. I am a woman and part of the stats. Why did I file? Because my ex wasn't going to do it. That simple. We'd been living separately for 2 years, both involved with and living with new partners, and the marriage existed on paper only. ExH didn't want to be the one to file because filing costs money. He'd have left the marriage on paper only forever if I hadn't filed.
> 
> My friend, Cr, was the one to file for her first divorce. Why? Because her husband had disappeared for a year. He literally said "I'm going to the store, want anything?" and never come back. The family car was found at a bus station 2 days later. So, she filed in order to sever their relationship legally and get child support and custody established because she had 3 kids under 10. She filed for her 2nd divorce when her 2nd husband became an abusive alcoholic who pulled a gun on her. (She now has a LTP who is awesome, but no plans to ever marry again.)
> 
> My friend, Ca, filed for her divorce in self defense, literally. Her husband of 24 years lost his mind and started beating her. I don't mean he hit her, I mean he beat her. (She's also now with a great LTP and has no plans to marry)
> 
> Oh, then there is the divorce(s) filed by Cs. She married her first husband, divorced him when she caught him cheating with half their apartment complex. Married her 2nd husband, divorced him when he got into a bar brawl and police chase (in her car) while out on a date with his mistress. He was charged with felony assault with intent, fleeing and evading, reckless driving, endangerment, and more! While he was in jail, she filed. (She is deceased. She remarried her 2nd husband when he got out of jail. He stabbed her to death 8 years ago today while they were at a hotel on their honeymoon.)
> 
> My friend, T, filed for her divorce because her husband wouldn't get a job for over a year and then took off out of state to live with his family, leaving her holding the legal bag. (She's also living with a LTP and has no plans to marry)
> 
> My buddy, D, filed for her divorce when her husband left right after their child graduated high school to move in with his mistress of 11 years. (Last I heard, she spiraled down hard and is with some jerk up north)
> 
> So, yeah, the numbers say women file. What the numbers aren't telling us is the why behind it.


I would easily say that your friends reasons are incredibly valid, but only occur to 10-20% of the population. that leaves a lot of D's for not as good of reasons.


----------



## musicftw07

sokillme said:


> Red Sonja said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, there is a lot of _that _going on in this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> We are having a philosophical conversation, which means there is a lot of postulation, that is how it works. Why are you so sensitive about it?
Click to expand...

I'm not picking on Red Sonja at all with my comment below, just making an observation about women in general.

Women no longer wish to be treated as "the fairer sex", because it promotes sexism. I totally get it. But I do believe they still wish to be perceived as "the fairer sex". In other words, women aren't capable of doing anything seriously malicious, or those who are constitute the vast minority. Women don't hurt others, especially men, for personal gain. Women don't use others for personal gain. Women are incapable of being selfish, entitled, or narcissistic. But those that are, well... That's a very small number. And those women are only that way because a man made her that way.

This is how I perceive the narrative to be. And I think most women, in general, have a subconscious instinct to promote that narrative. We're just seeing a manifestation of that.

In reality, I tend to think that the stratification of good people vs bad people is pretty much identical regardless of gender. A few winners and a whole lot of losers, gender notwithstanding.

As such, I don't think for one second that 80% of all men are not marriage material. Women themselves have to be playing a role with numbers that high. And yes, as a man, it's a deterrent for marriage. A simple cost/benefit analysis demonstrates that.


----------



## Cletus

MJJEAN said:


> My friend, Cr, was the one to file for her first divorce. ...
> 
> My friend, Ca, filed for her divorce in self defense, ...
> 
> Oh, then there is the divorce(s) filed by Cs. ...
> 
> My friend, T, filed for her divorce ...
> 
> My buddy, D, ...


We need to talk about the people with whom you're hanging out.


----------



## sadandlonely5

"YOU’RE RIGHT, GUYS—YOU CAN’T MAKE WOMEN HAPPY

unhappy wife
(Image/Moldova Christina)

A common complaint among married men is feeling like their wives are always complaining about something—that they’re never happy for long and that nothing he does ever seems to be good enough for her.

I remember feeling that way for a few years before spending the final 18 months of my marriage sleeping in the guest room until she finally left for good.

I’m a pretty nice guy and most people seem to like me, and because of that, I always believed and acted as if she was the one with the problem.

I know how frustrating it feels to exchange your bachelorhood for a lifelong commitment to love someone else, only to be told over and over again that you’re doing it wrong.

I know how much it hurts to want your spouse to want you back when they clearly don’t.

I know what it feels like to want to die when they move out and choose some ******* stranger over you after a dozen years together.

Those are honest and real feelings I experienced in the months between her driving away permanently with our preschool-aged son in the backseat, and a court magistrate nullifying our marriage.

Because I hadn’t yet learned the critical life lesson that we can’t and shouldn’t always trust ourselves, I was confident that my interpretation of my marriage and wife’s choice was accurate. That, for whatever my marital shortcomings and mistakes might have been, in the final analysis she was MORE wrong for quitting on our family.

After all, I was happy being married to her. If she would have just stopped finding stuff to get pissed about, it would have been awesome.

But she was hard to please. She was ungrateful. She was the one with the problem.

It’s Not Your Fault, Guys—No One Taught Us Differently

The notion that “girls are crazy” or that women are “stuck-up *****es” or “hard to understand” or “always finding something new to complain about,” isn’t something me and my friends invented. We heard men and older boys and TV telling us these things.

Collectively, men are FAR from innocent victims in all this. But I have no doubt that MOST guys grew up believing this narrative—because situations with crying girlfriends, angry mothers, and stories from their guy friends about their experiences with girls/women seemed to reinforce these beliefs.

That girls/women are too emotional.

That they’re crazy and irrational.

Thought exercise: If you honestly believe a person you’re talking to is capable of temporary moments of insanity where they become hyper-emotional and their judgment becomes clouded to the point where they’re “wrong” or “misjudging” a situation, how do you handle a disagreement with them?

Most guys are set up from childhood to not only believe (as most everyone does) that our first-person experiences and emotional interpretations of them are a reliable guide for determining right and wrong, but many of us also believe that our girlfriends and wives are WRONG when they react emotionally to something we say or do, and during arguments.

I thought my wife frequently overreacted to something she was upset about.

I left a dirty dish by the sink, and she decided she wanted to argue about it. I thought it was irrational to elevate a dirty dish to a marriage problem.

And because I believed my wife to be irrational, I believed she was wrong.

Because I believed she was wrong, I was never really motivated to change.

She’s the one with the problem.

The Danger of Not Recognizing the Difference Between “Trying to Make Her Happy” and “Not Hurting Her”

A lot of people read my most-popular articles—either “She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes by the Sink” or “An Open Letter to ****ty Husbands”—and sometimes afterward men will tell me what a stupid dumbass moron I am because of whatever I wrote.

They think I’m advocating for men to start selling out and doing whatever they can to placate their wives so she won’t want to leave. To “make her happy.” They think I wrote that all men are ****s who deserve to be left and all women are victims who never make mistakes in their marriages.

I recognize these guys right away now—the ones still wearing the blinders they inherited from childhood. The ones that taught them that women are often crazy and wrong. The ones that might have even taught them that men are somehow better than women.

They confuse my message of “Stop hurting her” with “Do whatever the little missus wants and worship her no matter what,” and it’s sad because they and their families will inevitably suffer for it, but it makes sense to me because maybe I would have had a similar reaction back when I was still blaming everything on my wife.

…

Let the record show that this isn’t intended to be gender-specific. This dysfunctional conversation/argument dynamic can just as easily exist in a role-reversal scenario in relationships that look differently than mine did. But this is generally the kind of relationship I see and hear about most, and the kind I lived through.

The one where husbands and wives get caught in a Man vs. Woman vortex, and slowly hurt one another repeatedly for many years until their marriage fails.

Not from any one moment. In isolation, none of these past arguments seemed like a big deal as they were happening. Certainly not marriage-enders.

None of these moments were scary enough to trip the emergency alarms. Marriages have fights! You just get over it and move on! No big deal!

Until one day the pile of No-Big-Deal arguments gets so big that the floor collapses beneath you, and everything falls apart.

Most marriages don’t end because of something big and dramatic like a gunshot or bomb explosion.

Most marriages end from bleeding out after being paper cut to death. One, even 10, paper cuts aren’t that scary. But after tens of thousands, maybe you bleed so much that you die.

The #1 Thing That Ends Relationships

I believe, when you strip away all of the bull**** and psychobabble, that one idea sums up why more than half of all relationships fail:

Men frequently demonstrate an inability or unwillingness to recognize the pain they cause their wives or girlfriends and then fail to intentionally adjust the behavior to stop hurting them.

Empathy can often be hard for people to exhibit when we don’t relate to nor understand what someone else is going through.

His wife is telling him that something he is doing HURTS her—not unlike him punching her in the face or stabbing her with a knife.

Only the smallest percentage of men would ever actually punch or stab the woman he loves. The VAST majority of men take seriously their role as “protector,” regardless of whether his wife or girlfriend needs protecting.

“I would never hurt you,” men say to their wives or girlfriends.

He says it over and over again, and believes it with all of his heart. He’s being totally serious and genuine.

This situation his wife or girlfriend is describing during this most recent silly argument is too ridiculous to be taken seriously.

She’s overreacting again. Making a federal case out of something that doesn’t matter. She’s saying this HURTS her? No way.

I don’t care when she leaves a piece of laundry on the bedroom floor, so how could it HURT her when I do it?

I don’t care whether she gives me a gift for our wedding anniversary, so how could it HURT her when I forget to do it?

I don’t care when she forgets something at the grocery store, so how could it HURT her when I do it?

I don’t care about Valentine’s Day and think it’s stupid that people make a big deal out of it, so how could it HURT her when I don’t agree to treat the day the same way she wants to?

I felt like my wife was getting lightly hit with a pillow but responding emotionally as if I was swinging a bat at her.

And I thought that was CRAZY.

I thought she was wrong.

I thought she was hard to please.

I thought she was acting like an ungrateful ***** for acting like nothing I did was good enough for her.

…

My wife thought I was either hurting her on purpose, or cared so little about her that I was refusing to change any of my behaviors that might help her.

When you tell someone that something within their control is HURTING you, and they not only demonstrate an unwillingness to stop, but also are telling you that you’re too dumb, too crazy, too WRONG to know what’s real and not real—what do you do?

Stay calm?

Put on a happy face and pretend everything is okay?

Decide to carry on as an intimate partner to the person who hurts you more than anyone else, and seems unwilling to stop?

…

Bad news, guys: You CAN’T make your wife or girlfriend happy no matter how hard you try. Not because they’re hard to please, but because all people must make peace with themselves before they can ever feel content and comfortable in their own skin. Until then, we’re all just fumbling around in the dark breaking ****.

But you CAN stop hurting her when she says “Hey. When you do that, it hurts me.” You can stop hurting her by treating her as if she’s insane for feeling hurt by something just because that same thing might not hurt you. You can stop hurting her by continuing to do whatever the thing is that she says is hurting her because you don’t respect her enough or take her seriously enough to eliminate the pain-causing behavior.

I’d like to see what happens when a sad and angry wife or girlfriend tells her husband or boyfriend about something that’s hurting her, and instead of telling her she’s dumb and crazy, he apologizes sincerely, and moves forward giving his best effort to not let that happen again.

I want to know how many of THOSE wives and girlfriends go “looking for something else to complain about.” I want to know how many of THOSE husbands and boyfriends feel disrespected and mistreated by a wife who never makes him feel like he’s good enough.

When you reduce your wife or girlfriend to a stupid, nagging ***** while she’s privately bleeding from hundreds of papercuts you’ve already forgotten about and never apologized for, maybe it makes sense for her to try a dramatic, emotional outburst to get your attention.

When you dismiss her plea for help repeatedly, maybe it makes sense for her to remove herself from the relationship in order to preserve her health and wellbeing.

And just maybe, when you take responsibility for the pain you might have accidentally caused, respect your partner enough to listen and believe her when she tells you about it, and LOVE her enough to make sure the painful thing stops happening—just maybe that’s where marital peace and healing live.

Just maybe that’s how you get to ‘Til death do us part.

I wouldn’t know, because I never actually considered that I might be wrong about her, and that I was not only capable of hurting her, but that I actually was.

I wouldn’t know, because I never actually took any responsibility during our marriage for hurting my wife. I never apologized, then followed it up with a behavioral change that would allow her to trust me again.

I wouldn’t know, because my marriage and family fell apart despite my insistence that nothing was wrong. My marriage and family fell apart long before I ever developed the humility necessary to ask the right questions.

If my wife repeatedly hurt me and every time I told her about it she blew me off and told me I could expect her to keep doing so, would I really agree to stay in the marriage?

Is it possible that the same situation can hurt one person, and not another?

If I was hurting my wife and she couldn’t trust me or feel safe with me anymore because I told her a hundred times that she was crazy and mistaken instead of believing her, wasn’t she SMART and WISE to reluctantly end our marriage?

It took many years, but the truth eventually hit me hard.

I’m not divorced because my wife was hard to please or that she felt I was never good enough for her. I’m divorced because when my wife told me something was wrong, I treated her like a second-class mental patient and all but promised to never change.

Sometimes I wonder what might have happened had I not.

Instead of wondering, maybe you can actually find out.

Isn’t she worth it? Aren’t you?”

www - mustbethistalltoride .com (I can’t post links yet)


----------



## 269370

MJJEAN said:


> I filed for my divorce. I am a woman and part of the stats. Why did I file? Because my ex wasn't going to do it. That simple. We'd been living separately for 2 years, both involved with and living with new partners, and the marriage existed on paper only. ExH didn't want to be the one to file because filing costs money. He'd have left the marriage on paper only forever if I hadn't filed.
> 
> My friend, Cr, was the one to file for her first divorce. Why? Because her husband had disappeared for a year. He literally said "I'm going to the store, want anything?" and never come back. The family car was found at a bus station 2 days later. So, she filed in order to sever their relationship legally and get child support and custody established because she had 3 kids under 10. She filed for her 2nd divorce when her 2nd husband became an abusive alcoholic who pulled a gun on her. (She now has a LTP who is awesome, but no plans to ever marry again.)
> 
> My friend, Ca, filed for her divorce in self defense, literally. Her husband of 24 years lost his mind and started beating her. I don't mean he hit her, I mean he beat her. (She's also now with a great LTP and has no plans to marry)
> 
> Oh, then there is the divorce(s) filed by Cs. She married her first husband, divorced him when she caught him cheating with half their apartment complex. Married her 2nd husband, divorced him when he got into a bar brawl and police chase (in her car) while out on a date with his mistress. He was charged with felony assault with intent, fleeing and evading, reckless driving, endangerment, and more! While he was in jail, she filed. (She is deceased. She remarried her 2nd husband when he got out of jail. He stabbed her to death 8 years ago today while they were at a hotel on their honeymoon.)
> 
> My friend, T, filed for her divorce because her husband wouldn't get a job for over a year and then took off out of state to live with his family, leaving her holding the legal bag. (She's also living with a LTP and has no plans to marry)
> 
> My buddy, D, filed for her divorce when her husband left right after their child graduated high school to move in with his mistress of 11 years. (Last I heard, she spiraled down hard and is with some jerk up north)
> 
> So, yeah, the numbers say women file. What the numbers aren't telling us is the why behind it.


But have you heard the ex-husbands' sides?


----------



## 269370

Maybe men don't file for divorce as much (aside from the financial aspects) because deep down their are still 'good momma's boys'; too afraid to do something wrong or 'rebellious'. Girls tend to have no trouble being rebellious. Maybe I say this because I have 3 small kids but only after two of my sons were born was I able to understand that many men, never really grow up properly. I see same traits in grown men as I see in my 4 year old.


----------



## musicftw07

inmyprime said:


> Maybe men don't file for divorce as much (aside from the financial aspects) because deep down their are still 'good momma's boys'; too afraid to do something wrong or 'rebellious'. Girls tend to have no trouble being rebellious. Maybe I say this because I have 3 small kids but only after two of my sons were born was I able to understand that many men, never really grow up properly. I see same traits in grown men as I see in my 4 year old.


Eh... Not completely. My daughter is 10 and isn't rebellious at all. My nieces are also not rebellious. One of my nephews, though... And I went through a large rebellious phase in my teens. I'm surprised my parents survived!

I do partially agree, in that men can have a skewed perspective of what relationships and marriage with women are like based upon their mother's influence. Mothers tend to want their sons to love them first and the most, so love interests can be viewed as a threat. (I speak from experience on that one.) I also think mothers can give their sons bad advice regarding dealings with females. Mothers are an authority figure, and I think they sometimes impart the expectation that all females need to be viewed as such. And a doormat is born. Or, they claim that women like sensitive men and raise them that way. While it may be partially true, the general consensus I've learned is that women still want MEN, not females with penises.


----------



## MJJEAN

naiveonedave said:


> I would easily say that your friends reasons are incredibly valid, but only occur to 10-20% of the population. that leaves a lot of D's for not as good of reasons.


I can go on. I know more women who were abused, cheated on repeatedly, and abandoned when they filed. I also know 1 woman responsible for 6 divorce filings. She keeps picking losers and then acting surprised they're losers...



Cletus said:


> We need to talk about the people with whom you're hanging out.


Eh, what ya gonna do? A lot of my examples are people I've been close to since we were in High School and the others are family, so I'm just kind of stuck with them.



inmyprime said:


> But have you heard the ex-husbands' sides?


Lord help me, I was there for a lot of it.

I think I was about 30 or so before I started realizing some of my experiences aren't exactly normal elsewhere. I'm middle aged, my friends and family are interesting people, and I have some stories, rofl.


----------



## AmICrazy43

sokillme said:


> And this would be a good example of why there is a shortage of men. In the sense of what is the incentive for you to marry? Between you and her husband you have gotten the best deal, her husband invested much more in her and basically all he got out of it was the kids (which granted may still make him the winner) however then if you look it from what most men's primary want from a relationship, which a lot of guys would say is sex you get the best return on your investment I am sure. I am not saying this is right or even nice, but from a logical point of view it is what it is.
> 
> *Now I am sure she would come on here and say her ex was crap*, but then maybe she wouldn't. You seem to be saying she has told you so, she was just used to him.
> 
> Again I don't know if post modern society and marriage go together.


No, actually both of the women I mentioned didn't really have any bad things to say about their ex's. They just needed more in terms of going out and wanted guys they were (more) attracted too. That's the kicker in all of this. In hindsight, one of them anyway, realizes that she got everything from her ex which is part of why she now regrets leaving him.


----------



## VibrantWings

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Oh come on, now. Don't go infusing *fact *and *reality* into the same cliche whining some men have done for years. Their silly little argument that all women stay home and they're the breadwinners is a pile of horse ****. More women work than ever - and get stuck doing everything at home on TOP of it.
> 
> No wonder so many women initiate divorce. For a lot of them, it's nothing more than a life of servitude to some lazy ass, self-entitled douche bag.
> 
> Yeah, I went there.





Ynot said:


> Just look around this place. There plenty of bitter angry guys who still imagine all of the things marriage is supposed to be. Then get all upset when reality strikes.





Ynot said:


> I agree with you. The problem is that the postulation has nothing to do with facts and everything to do with beliefs. In this case the belief of what marriage is supposed to be as opposed to the fact of what it actually is.
> Some people think that taking part in some sort of ritualistic act and then renaming a relationship a marriage changes everything.



Amen to all of this 

My life is MUCH MUCH MUCH easier not being married anymore. I'm a hard worker, always looking for a way to "get ahead" and improve not only my life but that of everyone around me. Marriage was a ball and chain that was causing me to drown. It's never been a shocker that I filed for divorce...the shocking part was how long it took me to do it. 

I didn't divorce him because I wanted to **** other men.....going back into the dating pool sucks. I didn't divorce him for money- I brought home the bacon....sometimes more than him. His ass was never willing to fry it or wash the pan. I didn't like my daughters seeing me let myself being treated the way I was. 

Sometimes you get tired of the bull****. I found myself thinking: Do I want to spend the next 14 years like I just spent the last 14 years? Guess what a catalyst that was.... 

It's been my experience that the majority of people hold the idea of marriage as something sacred/worth working/fighting for....and most people have GOOD reasons to divorce.


----------



## Fozzy

arbitrator said:


> *Yeah! She sure as hell never rubbed sticks to start a fire, unless it was some other man's stick!*


I don't even know what you mean by this, but I still laughed my ass off.


----------



## sokillme

AmICrazy43 said:


> No, actually both of the women I mentioned didn't really have any bad things to say about their ex's. They just needed more in terms of going out and wanted guys they were (more) attracted too. That's the kicker in all of this. In hindsight, one of them anyway, realizes that she got everything from her ex which is part of why she now regrets leaving him.


So this is the equivalent of the guy who divorces his wife to go date younger women or whatever. The difference is 30 years ago a women wouldn't be able to do this as cultural pressure would be too hard on her. Now she is empowering herself and there are articles written about how great it is that she is getting what she wants. Whatever life goes on. I wonder what happened to their husbands. Probably some other women who blew of their first husband because they were bored now are married to them.

At least they didn't cheat, or so they tell you.


----------



## sokillme

I wonder if some of this is not just that men are built and told to just tough out a bad situation. We are supposed to just grin and bear it, not show any emotion or weakness. Where as women will leave. I think that is a mistake by us. I mean I can't tell you how many threads I read by men where they wives finally cheat on them but they have been treating them like garbage for years, and they guys still want them back. I would have been long gone. So maybe it's not so much men are bad at marriage as much as we are socially conditioned to stay in bad marriages as we are supposed to be strong and think we are doing so by just taking it.


----------



## Betrayedone

Prodigal said:


> Uh, yeah, okay. So women should work low or menial paying jobs. If they do the same work as a man, they shouldn't get "fair" pay. And what is wrong with a woman wanting a teammate and friend who will listen? Perhaps you should read about John Adams. His wife, Abigail, was his touchstone. Reading their correspondence is an eye opener. And guess what? It happened in the 18th century - go figure!
> 
> Maybe just keeping women barefoot, pregnant, and uneducated will keep them from seeking divorce. And, from a woman and feminist to boot, let us hope we have evolved past your mindset. Seriously.


A little touchy? Are we?


----------



## Betrayedone

This thread is lame.......on both sides.......One thing is has brought to light for me is I certainly don't want a radical feminist in my life.......


----------



## AmICrazy43

Betrayedone said:


> This thread is lame.......on both sides.......One thing is has brought to light for me is I certainly don't want a radical feminist in my life.......


Very wise. Apparently, if you don't cook and clean the dishes you will be served divorce papers!!


----------



## ConanHub

jlcrome said:


> I've been brainstorming this and my conclusion is it's part of evolution. Ever since the beginning of mankind "men" were known for being "hunters and gatherers" while the women stayed at the cave rubbing two sticks together to start a fire getting supper ready. Now fast foward 1.6 million years later not much has changed. Men are known for their "breadwinning" abilities and women tend to the needs of the house. The 60's revolution came along bingo!! No-fault divorce, feminism, fair pay, women's rights coming out of the wood works. Now women don't need "A MAN" she needs a partner a teammate a friend that will listen......sigh. Men nowdays just can't keep up with evolution the end.


Glad I skipped the whole evolution bull**** train.

I'm a knuckle dragging barbarian that barely knows how to use a toilet and have had women offering themselves on silver platters to me since I was 15.

Oh, I'm also married to a woman who leapt into my bed about 8 hours after meeting me.

I saw her, smiled, she smiled back and I asked her out and she said yes. No conversation or high end discussions. She has been sharing my bed for over 26 years now and is lying next to me this moment.:grin2:

Yes. Very glad I skipped all that evolution bull****. Doesn't sound very satisfying.:wink2:


----------



## MrsHolland

Weak men make excuses and refuse to take responsibility for where they end up in life. Weak isn't sexy.


----------



## ConanHub

AmICrazy43 said:


> As a follow up to my previous post I can give another example. I'm 43 now but when I was 22 I was in what ended up being a 12 year relationship. I remember being 22 and didn't have much money. I had just started working in construction and was dating the boss's daughter. We had been dating for a while and she always wanted to go out to eat. I would have rather cooked together but that's neither here nor there. So, I remember her wanting to go out to a restaurant and she was being PA about things at that time and I wanted to make her happy (I thought that was what I was supposed to do). What did I do? Well, I had a coin jar. I emptied it out and got on my hands and knees (with her watching) and counted out the change that I had. This happened on two occasions. I took her out to eat and she was happy.
> 
> Now, here is the interesting part. I was pretty broke at that time and I found out that she had saved up...ready for this...20K! So, she wanted to go out to eat, have me take her and have me pay for it with the change that I had when the entire time she had a whopping 20K in her bank account. I was floored when I found that part out.
> 
> Now, I don't want to say how many women I've dated and before anyone says, "well, it must be you because you seem to gravitate towards women that behave that way", let me just say this...I've met enough women and they all exhibit the same qualities, unfortunately. Not only me but plenty of other men I've met on jobs, friends or friends of friends, etc... Again, something very wrong is happening in today's society and it seems that no one is really very happy in their relationships.


I'm positive that your examples are happening but would argue that they aren't happening everywhere to everyone.

Women have generally spent far more of their resources on me than vice versa. The only woman I have really spent anything on is my wife and she treats me every chance she gets.

I have also never tried to figure women out or change myself to please them.

I have always listened more than I talk with women unless I get on a geeky subject so maybe they find that endearing but I just haven't seen women behaving like you are giving examples of, wide spread anyway.


----------



## ConanHub

P.S. While I've been burning brain cells on TAM, Mrs. Conan has been ogling my nether regions, "handling" things she finds interesting and posing so I can appreciate her finer "assets".

In other words, she isn't taking no for an answer tonight.

See you later my more evolved brothers.

Duty calls!😉


----------



## Red Sonja

sokillme said:


> Never said otherwise, you tend to do this a lot. Just cause I say one gender does something doesn't mean that I am saying another does not.


*In the context of this thread's subject matter ... nope, not buying it.*




sokillme said:


> We are having a philosophical conversation, which means there is a lot of postulation, that is how it works. Why are you so sensitive about it?


*I object to postulation based on personal belief that contradicts known facts. Most rational people do.*




musicftw07 said:


> In other words, women aren't capable of doing anything seriously malicious, or those who are constitute the vast minority. Women don't hurt others, especially men, for personal gain. Women don't use others for personal gain. Women are incapable of being selfish, entitled, or narcissistic. But those that are, well... That's a very small number. And those women are only that way because a man made her that way.


*No, just no ... I cannot believe you stated something so ridiculous. *


----------



## EleGirl

musicftw07 said:


> This is how I perceive the narrative to be. And I think most women, in general, have a subconscious instinct to promote that narrative. We're just seeing a manifestation of that.
> 
> In reality, I tend to think that the stratification of good people vs bad people is pretty much identical regardless of gender. A few winners and a whole lot of losers, gender notwithstanding.
> 
> *As such, I don't think for one second that 80% of all men are not marriage material.* Women themselves have to be playing a role with numbers that high. And yes, as a man, it's a deterrent for marriage. A simple cost/benefit analysis demonstrates that.


No one is claiming that 80% of all men are not marriage material. 

Popular culture states that about 50% of marriages end in divorce. In reality about 29% of all marriages end in divorce. That stats are also that about 70% of divorces are filed by women. So it's 70% of about 29% of marriage in which women file for divorce.

The person who files for divorce is not always the one who caused the marital breakdown. Though I believe that when most marriages end, both people have contributed significantly to the breakdown of the marriage. 

Usually the one who files for divorce is the one who feels that they need to protection of a divorce... like maybe child support.


----------



## EleGirl

Just one more of the many many threads on TAM for men to bad mouth women. It's pretty sad.


----------



## arbitrator

MrsHolland said:


> Weak men make excuses and refuse to take responsibility for where they end up in life. Weak isn't sexy.


*Bully and overbearing women, as well as unfaithful women, are not sexy either!

And that goes for men, too!*


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> Just one more of the many many threads on TAM for men to bad mouth women. It's pretty sad.


Why don't you start a post about crappy men. I will be happy to join that one too. God knows their are plenty of them as well. 0


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> Why don't you start a post about crappy men. I will be happy to join that one too. God knows their are plenty of them as well. 0


I don't see a need to start threads about crappy men. There are about as many crappy men and there are crappy women. What's the point of going on about crappy people (men or women) in general?

According to this thread I'm a crappy woman because I have filed for divorce. Shame on me. I should be stayed because I'm a woman and clearly all men are so much better than women... even if they were crappy men, they were clearly better than me because I'm a woman. Just read this thread. Shoot, we could also read all the other threads on TAM in which men bash women in general. One is started about every other day.


----------



## RussellHarper

Yeah! True.


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> I don't see a need to start threads about crappy men. There are about as many crappy men and there are crappy women. What's the point of going on about crappy people (men or women) in general?
> 
> According to this thread I'm a crappy woman because I have filed for divorce. Shame on me. I should be stayed with just because I'm a woman and clearly all men are so much better than women... even if they were crappy men, they were clearly better than me because I'm a woman. Just read this thread. Shoot, we could also read all the other threads on TAM in which men bash women in general. One is started about every other day.


Well as everyone who reads here know I am completely against divorce. 0

Ele, just take it from the source. You also have some residual feelings from your experience from being married to crappy men too. No one here is saying all women or all men are bad. I actually don't know any women personally who are like some of the ones I have commented on. I also don't know very meany crappy men either.


----------



## Wolf1974

sokillme said:


> Well as everyone who reads here know I am completely against divorce. 0
> 
> Ele, just take it from the source. You also have some residual feelings from your experience from being married to crappy men too. No one here is saying all women or all men are bad. I actually don't know any women personally who are like some of the ones I have commented on. I also don't know very meany crappy men either.


This is my take as well. I don’t know many crazy or crappy men and women. But I do know in every case of my social circle it was the women who filed for divorce. And some for damn good reasons I might add. In my case my x filed and I didn’t want to divorce. Then I discovered she was cheating, exposed her, thier relationship ended, and then she wanted to pull the divorce and I pushed it. Had I discovered the affair first I would have filed.

Women likely do file 80% of the time but that doesn’t mean they are 80%responsible for the current divorce rate. I bet that’s more 50/50. Personally thInk way too many people get married to serve their own needs. And then divorce for the same self service.


----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> I wonder if some of this is not just that men are built and told to just tough out a bad situation. We are supposed to just grin and bear it, not show any emotion or weakness. Where as women will leave. I think that is a mistake by us. I mean I can't tell you how many threads I read by men where they wives finally cheat on them but they have been treating them like garbage for years, and they guys still want them back. I would have been long gone. So maybe it's not so much men are bad at marriage as much as we are socially conditioned to stay in bad marriages as we are supposed to be strong and think we are doing so by just taking it.




BJs. Lots of BJs. It really is the answer to everything. I’m not kidding. If I don’t engage in some sort of sexual activity with wife every few days, i begin to walk around and feel like a wounded tiger. Everything sucks (apart from wife, when she doesn’t feel like sucking), the world is unfair, I don’t feel like doing anything around the house and anything wife says or does is the most hurtful thing I ever heard.

After Sex: even if she just hurt me with a knife previously, I will have absolutely no recollection what the **** it was we were arguing about. I feel warm and fuzzy, happy with life and myself and think wife is The Bestest, ever.

I want to throw up how primitive I’m.
I wonder how aware women are of this? 80% aware or less?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Red Sonja

inmyprime said:


> BJs. Lots of BJs. It really is the answer to everything. I’m not kidding. If I don’t engage in some sort of sexual activity with wife every few days, i begin to walk around and feel like a wounded tiger. Everything sucks (apart from wife, when she doesn’t feel like sucking), the world is unfair, I don’t feel like doing anything around the house and anything wife says or does is the most hurtful thing I ever heard.


:rofl: That advice doesn't help those of us who have spouses that turn down BJ's (or any sexual contact) ... like my exH for example. Just sayin'.


----------



## MJJEAN

EleGirl said:


> Popular culture states that about 50% of marriages end in divorce. In reality about 29% of all marriages end in divorce. That stats are also that about 70% of divorces are filed by women. So it's 70% of about 29% of marriage in which women file for divorce.


Last I checked there are many counties across the country who do not report marriage and divorce stats at all. Lack of personnel/funding to compile and report. Since we know certain areas are hotbeds of divorce and certain areas seem to have longer lasting marriages, this lack of total information makes a difference.

Also, there are those who skew the numbers by being married and divorced multiple times. X% of marriages end in divorce. People assume X% of marriages are Woman A and Man A. They don't take into account that Woman A may have married and divorced 6 times in 15 years.



sokillme said:


> I wonder if some of this is not just that men are built and told to just tough out a bad situation. We are supposed to just grin and bear it, not show any emotion or weakness. Where as women will leave. I think that is a mistake by us. I mean I can't tell you how many threads I read by men where they wives finally cheat on them but they have been treating them like garbage for years, and they guys still want them back. I would have been long gone. So maybe it's not so much men are bad at marriage as much as we are socially conditioned to stay in bad marriages as we are supposed to be strong and think we are doing so by just taking it.


Maybe it's a regional or generational thing, but where I grew up _everyone_ was supposed to suck it up, tough it out, and not show emotion or weakness for fear of losing the respect of family and peers.


----------



## sokillme

Red Sonja said:


> :rofl: That advice doesn't help those of us who have spouses that turn down BJ's (or any sexual contact) ... like my exH for example. Just sayin'.


I hope you divorced him. :laugh:


----------



## Blondilocks

EllisRedding said:


> Rubbing a man's stick, I would think a fire would be the last thing to come out of it unless it is something like this:


Good going, Ellis. You just crapped all over The Doors.:grin2:


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

AmICrazy43 said:


> Very wise. Apparently, if you don't cook and clean the dishes you will be served divorce papers!!


Reading comprehension, much?

The argument is that MANY women are working full time jobs and some bring home more money than their husbands! Yet these same women are *also* stuck with the lion's share of the domestic chores at home and the child-rearing on TOP of it. There are way too many lazy, self-entitled husbands who think it's their birthright to lay on the couch or play their lame-ass video games for hours while their wives are busting their asses every night getting dinner, dealing with the kids, and doing the thousands of other daily chores to keep a household in order - and she's doing this *after* having also worked a full day just like her self-entitled husband. 

So many men want to spew the 'equal rights' argument when it benefits them - women paying 50% of the bill out on dates or working and splitting the household bills 50/50. They have NO problem loving the benefits of that.

But then suddenly, they suffer from a horrible bout of "amnesia" about equality when it comes to doing their SHARE of the work at home. Suddenly, that 'equality' argument that came in _*so*_ handy before when it befitted them seems to go right out the window when they want to revert back to their thinking that they aren't required to do a damned thing because it's 'women's work.' 

How very convenient.:wink2:

Can we say "hypocrites?' 

Why yes, yes we can.


----------



## Ynot

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Reading comprehension, much?
> 
> The argument is that MANY women are working full time jobs and some bring home more money than their husbands! Yet these same women are *also* stuck with the lion's share of the domestic chores at home and the child-rearing on TOP of it. There are way too many lazy, self-entitled husbands who think it's their birthright to lay on the couch or play their lame-ass video games for hours while their wives are busting their asses every night getting dinner, dealing with the kids, and doing the thousands of other daily chores to keep a household in order - and she's doing this *after* having also worked a full day just like her self-entitled husband.
> 
> So many men want to spew the 'equal rights' argument when it benefits them - women paying 50% of the bill out on dates or working and splitting the household bills 50/50. They have NO problem loving the benefits of that.
> 
> But then suddenly, they suffer from a horrible bout of "amnesia" about equality when it comes to doing their SHARE of the work at home. Suddenly, that 'equality' argument that came in _*so*_ handy before when it befitted them seems to go right out the window when they want to revert back to their thinking that they aren't required to do a damned thing because it's 'women's work.'
> 
> How very convenient.:wink2:
> 
> Can we say "hypocrites?'
> 
> Why yes, yes we can.


Can we say "projecting"?

Why yes, yes we can!

Your posts are as ludicrous as the ones you are replying to. Not all men, not even the majority, are like as you posted, just as not all women, not even the majority are the way they are characterized in those other posts.
You are projecting your particular experiences unto all men, just as those guys are doing to all women. Neither side is right, and both do more damage than good.


----------



## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> BJs. Lots of BJs. It really is the answer to everything. I’m not kidding. If I don’t engage in some sort of sexual activity with wife every few days, i begin to walk around and feel like a wounded tiger. Everything sucks (apart from wife, when she doesn’t feel like sucking), the world is unfair, I don’t feel like doing anything around the house and anything wife says or does is the most hurtful thing I ever heard.
> 
> After Sex: even if she just hurt me with a knife previously, I will have absolutely no recollection what the **** it was we were arguing about. I feel warm and fuzzy, happy with life and myself and think wife is The Bestest, ever.
> 
> I want to throw up how primitive I’m.
> I wonder how aware women are of this? 80% aware or less?


I can tell you from experience that there are plenty of men for whom lots of sex and just about daily bj's do nothing to keep them happy in marriage and nothing to keep them from cheating.


----------



## 269370

EleGirl said:


> I can tell you from experience that there are plenty of men for whom lots of sex and just about daily bj's do nothing to keep them happy in marriage and nothing to keep them from cheating.


Maybe if those husbands decided to cheat with guys....:scratchhead: Otherwise I don't understand it. Like, at all.


----------



## AmICrazy43

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Reading comprehension, much?
> 
> The argument is that MANY women are working full time jobs and some bring home more money than their husbands! Yet these same women are *also* stuck with the lion's share of the domestic chores at home and the child-rearing on TOP of it. There are way too many lazy, self-entitled husbands who think it's their birthright to lay on the couch or play their lame-ass video games for hours while their wives are busting their asses every night getting dinner, dealing with the kids, and doing the thousands of other daily chores to keep a household in order - and she's doing this *after* having also worked a full day just like her self-entitled husband.
> 
> So many men want to spew the 'equal rights' argument when it benefits them - women paying 50% of the bill out on dates or working and splitting the household bills 50/50. They have NO problem loving the benefits of that.
> 
> But then suddenly, they suffer from a horrible bout of "amnesia" about equality when it comes to doing their SHARE of the work at home. Suddenly, that 'equality' argument that came in _*so*_ handy before when it befitted them seems to go right out the window when they want to revert back to their thinking that they aren't required to do a damned thing because it's 'women's work.'
> 
> How very convenient.:wink2:
> 
> Can we say "hypocrites?'
> 
> Why yes, yes we can.


My reading comprehension is just fine, thank you very much.

I'm editing my reply because that wasn't even your post that I was referring to. But hey, feel free to hurl more insults 

I will add this. If that's how the man was when a woman married him it actually goes back to the crux of the problem. If a woman marries a man with those characteristics she knows EXACTLY what she is getting. Did she think she could change him? Train him? She expected more (which is basically the basis of this thread) and when she didn't get what she wanted she drops the hammer on him and the family. A woman invites that type of man into her life, starts a family with him, and then when he doesn't do what she wants or expects she uninvites him from her life and breaks up the family. It's really a reflection on the person (man or woman...yes, I'm including men in this one too...gasp!) making bad life decisions and trying to blame someone other than themselves.


----------



## Ynot

inmyprime said:


> Maybe if those husbands decided to cheat with guys....:scratchhead: Otherwise I don't understand it. Like, at all.


Because cheating usually as little to do with sex. While it sometimes involves a sexual act(s). It is more typically a result of some unmet emotional need. A daily BJ, fills very few unmet emotional needs for most people.


----------



## 269370

Ynot said:


> Because cheating usually as little to do with sex. While it sometimes involves a sexual act(s). It is more typically a result of some unmet emotional need. A daily BJ, fills very few unmet emotional needs for most people.


For women maybe (not ALL women, but most women require emotional connection to feel happy/loved). For men, typically sexual need is highly correlated with emotional need. It's in fact almost interchangeable. After sex, I feel emotionally MUCH better  And from friends (and especially this website), I know I am not the only neanderthal who feels this way.

The typical formula is like this: wife has kids. Sex goes down the drain. Husband begins to resent wife (because men hate asking for sex. Woman is supposed to just...know when he's horny. Though she doesn't). Wife feels husband is cold, can't be arsed to do anything and is not supportive. Then either of them are at high risk of cheating or live miserably ever after. It's nobody's fault. It's just what happens. Unless people are aware of these risks, are good at communicating and are highly empathetic towards each other. 
They should teach this in schools. Together with how bees mate.

Desire for sex with your partner is a very underrated glue that holds a couple together. Some seem to be ashamed to admit it because the brain says that it can't be that simple. For men, it certainly can and is (a lot of the time). 

Here's a little experiment:
Take an average guy and not have sex with him for 6 months or so. See how quickly the **** hits the fan.
You got yourself a ticking spunk bomb waiting to detonate.

Of course this is a generalisation and many other things can go wrong. But for majority of couples (50%+) this is what tends to happen.


----------



## Buddy400

inmyprime said:


> The typical formula is like this: wife has kids. Sex goes down the drain. Husband begins to resent wife (because men hate asking for sex. Woman is supposed to just...know when he's horny. Though she doesn't). Wife feels husband is cold, can't be arsed to do anything and is not supportive. Then either of them are at high risk of cheating or live miserably ever after. *It's nobody's fault. It's just what happens. Unless people are aware of these risks, are good at communicating and are highly empathetic towards each other. *
> 
> They should teach this in schools.


This needs to be taught in parenting classes.


----------



## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> Maybe if those husbands decided to cheat with guys....:scratchhead: Otherwise I don't understand it. Like, at all.


No, those husbands decided to cheat with other women. The fact is that the idea that lots of enthusiastic monkey sex and bj's will keep a husband happy, treating you right and faithful it not true for a fairly large portion of men.


----------



## EleGirl

Ynot said:


> Because cheating usually as little to do with sex. While it sometimes involves a sexual act(s). It is more typically a result of some unmet emotional need. A daily BJ, fills very few unmet emotional needs for most people.


I agree. And some people who emotional needs that no one person can meet. 

A serial cheater is most likely a person who has a hole so big in their emotional needs bucket that nothing fills it. So they just keep looking for others out side of marriage to keep trying to fill their endless needs.


----------



## musicftw07

EleGirl said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is how I perceive the narrative to be. And I think most women, in general, have a subconscious instinct to promote that narrative. We're just seeing a manifestation of that.
> 
> In reality, I tend to think that the stratification of good people vs bad people is pretty much identical regardless of gender. A few winners and a whole lot of losers, gender notwithstanding.
> 
> *As such, I don't think for one second that 80% of all men are not marriage material.* Women themselves have to be playing a role with numbers that high. And yes, as a man, it's a deterrent for marriage. A simple cost/benefit analysis demonstrates that.
> 
> 
> 
> No one is claiming that 80% of all men are not marriage material....
> 
> Usually the one who files for divorce is the one who feels that they need to protection of a divorce... like maybe child support.
Click to expand...

I have heard the argument from women many, many times that if women are initiating 80% of the divorces, then clearly 80% of all married men aren't worthy.

It may not have been spoken here, but it's definitely spoken.

It is also telling that divorce is protection and for child support, according to your claim. Naturally, women would have an incentive to keep the paradigm of men paying.

Please understand, in no way am I calling you out personally. I'm speaking in the aggregate. Individual opinions mean nothing when compared to what large groups advocate and actually vote for. NOW would never endorse a nationwide 50/50 default federal law.


----------



## AmICrazy43

musicftw07 said:


> I have heard the argument from women many, many times that if women are initiating 80% of the divorces, then clearly 80% of all married men aren't worthy.
> 
> It may not have been spoken here, but it's definitely spoken.
> 
> It is also telling that divorce is protection and for child support, according to your claim. Naturally, women would have an incentive to keep the paradigm of men paying.
> 
> Please understand, in no way am I calling you out personally. I'm speaking in the aggregate. Individual opinions mean nothing when compared to what large groups advocate and actually vote for. NOW would never endorse a nationwide 50/50 default federal law.


If all of those men are not marriage material then what does that say about the women that decided to marry them? What does that say about their choice in men? And, after divorce, when men find out that said woman made such bad choices why would those "good men" even think about getting into a relationship with such a women? Serious question.


----------



## musicftw07

Red Sonja said:


> *No, just no ... I cannot believe you stated something so ridiculous. *


So you admit that some women can be selfish, narcissistic, and greedy of their own accord? That they can intentionally use men for their own personal gain? That they are this way due to their own lack of morals? And that they can use the legal system to do just that? (Please note the use of the word SOME, not ALL.)

And that men understanding and being aware of this simple fact is not misogynistic, it's just prudent?

If women initiating divorce 80% of the time doesn't mean that 80% of all married men are unworthy of marriage as Ele claims, then clearly there is a significant number of worthy men still being divorced.

That is the crux of the issue. It is not unreasonable to take precautions as a result. A huge part of success is risk management.


----------



## 269370

EleGirl said:


> No, those husbands decided to cheat with other women. The fact is that the idea that lots of enthusiastic monkey sex and bj's will keep a husband happy, treating you right and faithful it not true for a fairly large portion of men.



Not the ones who are not happy with their sex life 
The problem is that men and women don’t always want and expect the same thing from a marriage. That’s where the disconnect happens.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## musicftw07

AmICrazy43 said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard the argument from women many, many times that if women are initiating 80% of the divorces, then clearly 80% of all married men aren't worthy.
> 
> It may not have been spoken here, but it's definitely spoken.
> 
> It is also telling that divorce is protection and for child support, according to your claim. Naturally, women would have an incentive to keep the paradigm of men paying.
> 
> Please understand, in no way am I calling you out personally. I'm speaking in the aggregate. Individual opinions mean nothing when compared to what large groups advocate and actually vote for. NOW would never endorse a nationwide 50/50 default federal law.
> 
> 
> 
> If all of those men are not marriage material then what does that say about the women that decided to marry them? What does that say about their choice in men? And, after divorce, when men find out that said woman made such bad choices why would those "good men" even think about getting into a relationship with such a women? Serious question.
Click to expand...

Very good questions all around, and I think they illustrate failings on the part of both sexes.

If those men are not marriage material, then that tells me women (in the aggregate) make poor choices when it comes to men; or that their reasons for marriage were disingenuous; or that they're fickle. Possibly a combination of all three, in some cases.

As for the men who go back for more, they are just as guilty. They too make poor choices. They could be desperate; they believe that their "niceness" is enough to keep a partner; they could have low self-esteem. Or again, possibly a combination of all three.

This thread is specifically about the 80% statistic, so I'm trying to keep on topic regarding that. But a thread about the mistakes man make in dating and marriage could be very enlightening. Lord knows I've made my share.


----------



## Prodigal

Betrayedone said:


> A little touchy? Are we?


Uh, you don't know me very well, do you? Nah, I'm not touchy. You think this is touchy? Go visit the Politics and Religion forum. It gets downright rowdy. And I LIKE rowdy.

P.S. - If you don't like what I have to say or my delivery, that's okay. Hit that "ignore" button. It's your friend. Seriously.


----------



## tech-novelist

username77 said:


> Women do a lot better in divorce, they're awarded custody 90% of the time. Whoever is awarded custody typically gets the marital home, and receives support (alimony and/or child support) from the other spouse. If women got shafted like men they wouldn't be so quick to file. It's really simple to figure out, it's a a result of the biased courts against men.
> 
> If a woman was looking at losing her kids, home, incurring massive debt, living in a 1 bedroom dump rental, and handing her ex half her pay for the next 18 years, she would think long and hard before filing.


Of course we don't know this is correct, but I suggest an experiment so we can find out for sure.

Just reverse all the bias so that women get the treatment that men get today, and see what happens! >


----------



## AmICrazy43

musicftw07 said:


> Very good questions all around, and I think they illustrate failings on the part of both sexes.
> 
> If those men are not marriage material, then that tells me women (in the aggregate) make poor choices when it comes to men; or that their reasons for marriage were disingenuous; or that they're fickle. Possibly a combination of all three, in some cases.
> 
> As for the men who go back for more, they are just as guilty. They too make poor choices. They could be desperate; they believe that their "niceness" is enough to keep a partner; they could have low self-esteem. Or again, possibly a combination of all three.
> 
> *This thread is specifically about the 80% statistic, so I'm trying to keep on topic regarding that. But a thread about the mistakes man make in dating and marriage could be very enlightening. Lord knows I've made my share.*


Great post! Very succinct, but I think that this is the conundrum. A chicken and the egg type of scenario. Is it that the "nice" guys get involved with the wrong women who want more than the man can give and then get kicked to the curb? Or is it that the woman chose the wrong "bad boy" guy and he then gets kicked to the curb? Even if the "nice" guys chose the wrong woman, why is it the woman that initiates the divorce? Based on the statistic of 80% it would seem evident that it is in fact the women that are making the wrong choices since they are the ones that make the decision to end the marriage.

I used to think that this was a very circular argument, but I'm starting to lean towards a catalyst. I don't care if I get flamed for this but two words stick out in my mind when it comes to the "modern day" woman..."selfish and entitled". Men are getting screwed and abused ad nauseam by not only women but as others have pointed out, by the system as well. 

Based on my experiences and others, I have the red pill in my mouth and I am raising a glass of water.


----------



## 269370

EleGirl said:


> No, those husbands decided to cheat with other women. The fact is that the idea that lots of enthusiastic monkey sex and bj's will keep a husband happy, treating you right and faithful it not true for a fairly large portion of men.




Maybe we are talking about different things. 
The majority of men aren’t ‘serial cheaters’. They just want to have sex more than their wives do. The kind of men you are describing are not the majority. For those, you are right, no ungodly amount of BJs is going to help much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FrenchFry

AmICrazy43 said:


> Based on my experiences and others, I have the red pill in my mouth and I am raising a glass of water.


Might as well go full MGTOW! Drink up.


----------



## tech-novelist

Cooper said:


> Along that same philosophical theme I have also said many times that women are evolving into the more dominant gender in advanced societies. Women are taking full advantage of all the resources now made available and are positioning to be the political and professional leaders now and in the future. Women are no longer living in the shadow of man, they are a force to be recognized and frankly appreciated or they will push you out of their way. So sure, more women are filing for divorces......because they can.


That will work until civilization collapses because men, who still do 90% of the necessary work in society, stop trying to succeed because there is no point.


----------



## musicftw07

AmICrazy43 said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Very good questions all around, and I think they illustrate failings on the part of both sexes.
> 
> If those men are not marriage material, then that tells me women (in the aggregate) make poor choices when it comes to men; or that their reasons for marriage were disingenuous; or that they're fickle. Possibly a combination of all three, in some cases.
> 
> As for the men who go back for more, they are just as guilty. They too make poor choices. They could be desperate; they believe that their "niceness" is enough to keep a partner; they could have low self-esteem. Or again, possibly a combination of all three.
> 
> *This thread is specifically about the 80% statistic, so I'm trying to keep on topic regarding that. But a thread about the mistakes man make in dating and marriage could be very enlightening. Lord knows I've made my share.*
> 
> 
> 
> Great post! Very succinct, but I think that this is the conundrum. A chicken and the egg type of scenario. Is it that the "nice" guys get involved with the wrong women who want more than the man can give and then get kicked to the curb? Or is it that the woman chose the wrong "bad boy" guy and he then gets kicked to the curb? Even if the "nice" guys chose the wrong woman, why is it the woman that initiates the divorce? Based on the statistic of 80% it would seem evident that it is in fact the women that are making the wrong choices since they are the ones that make the decision to end the marriage.
> 
> I used to think that this was a very circular argument, but I'm starting to lean towards a catalyst. I don't care if I get flamed for this but two words stick out in my mind when it comes to the "modern day" woman..."selfish and entitled". Men are getting screwed and abused ad nauseam by not only women but as others have pointed out, by the system as well.
> 
> Based on my experiences and others, I have the red pill in my mouth and I am raising a glass of water.
Click to expand...

I think both nice guys choose the wrong woman and women choose the wrong bad boy. Both happen, and I would guess in fairly equal numbers. The blame there is most likely universal.

Women file more because divorce laws favor them. I really do believe it's that simple. A woman in this very thread stated that divorce offers protection and child support. I believe it's prudent to accept that claim and its implications at face value. And that is why women file 80% of the time. They know, in the aggregate, that by and large they will get resources for doing so.

I too take a small dose of red pill each day, but I would caution against too much. It's one thing to be aware of objective risk; it's entirely another to use emotion to demonize an entire group of people. I look at how organizations that represent groups of people vote. I have nothing against individual feminists (my girlfriend is a feminist, and I love her to death) but I will criticize the National Organization of Women for it's political activism against men without reservation.


----------



## AmICrazy43

FrenchFry said:


> Might as well go full MGTOW! Drink up.


I'm very close to that. Seriously. Been learning a lot lately and it makes a lot of sense!! :toast:


----------



## AmICrazy43

musicftw07 said:


> I think both nice guys choose the wrong woman and women choose the wrong bad boy. Both happen, and I would guess in fairly equal numbers. The blame there is most likely universal.
> 
> Women file more because divorce laws favor them. I really do believe it's that simple. A woman in this very thread stated that divorce offers protection and child support. I believe it's prudent to accept that claim and its implications at face value. And that is why women file 80% of the time. They know, in the aggregate, that by and large they will get resources for doing so.
> 
> I too take a small dose of red pill each day, but I would caution against too much. It's one thing to be aware of objective risk; it's entirely another to use emotion to demonize an entire group of people. I look at how organizations that represent groups of people vote. I have nothing against individual feminists (my girlfriend is a feminist, and I love her to death) but I will criticize the National Organization of Women for it's political activism against men without reservation.


The way I view the red pill and MGTOW has nothing to do with hating women in any way, shape, or form. I totally respect women as I do any other human being. I just don't want to be in a relationship with any of them at this point, lol!


----------



## musicftw07

FrenchFry said:


> AmICrazy43 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Based on my experiences and others, I have the red pill in my mouth and I am raising a glass of water.
> 
> 
> 
> Might as well go full MGTOW! Drink up.
Click to expand...

MGTOW as a lifestyle choice changed my life immeasurably for the better. No question.

MGTOW as a political and social movement is massively regressive. I have better things to do with my emotional energy than to hate and sulk, and I recognize that I am a part of society, not separate from it.

Any idea can be taken to the extreme.


----------



## musicftw07

AmICrazy43 said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think both nice guys choose the wrong woman and women choose the wrong bad boy. Both happen, and I would guess in fairly equal numbers. The blame there is most likely universal.
> 
> Women file more because divorce laws favor them. I really do believe it's that simple. A woman in this very thread stated that divorce offers protection and child support. I believe it's prudent to accept that claim and its implications at face value. And that is why women file 80% of the time. They know, in the aggregate, that by and large they will get resources for doing so.
> 
> I too take a small dose of red pill each day, but I would caution against too much. It's one thing to be aware of objective risk; it's entirely another to use emotion to demonize an entire group of people. I look at how organizations that represent groups of people vote. I have nothing against individual feminists (my girlfriend is a feminist, and I love her to death) but I will criticize the National Organization of Women for it's political activism against men without reservation.
> 
> 
> 
> The way I view the red pill and MGTOW has nothing to do with hating women in any way, shape, or form. I totally respect women as I do any other human being. I just don't want to be in a relationship with any of them at this point, lol!
Click to expand...

Okay cool. This I 100% endorse. I lived that way for over two years, and loved every minute of it! My income skyrocketed, my relationship with my daughter got way better, my savings grew substantially, and my career took off.

There is a great deal of benefit to focus on one's self-improvement. That's where I think MGTOW really shines.


----------



## AmICrazy43

musicftw07 said:


> MGTOW as a lifestyle choice changed my life immeasurably for the better. No question.
> 
> MGTOW as a political and social movement is massively regressive. I have better things to do with my emotional energy than to hate and sulk, and I recognize that I am a part of society, not separate from it.
> 
> Any idea can be taken to the extreme.



You totally nailed it! That's where I am heading now and I view it the same way you do. In fact, I think you have embraced what MGTOW is actually supposed to be about. I don't think of MGTOW in a political or social way whatsoever. It's a life choice and it's as simple as that. We'll still get criticized for it because people (women) can't handle the idea of MGTOW. If it's my choice, let me be and that's it.


----------



## FrenchFry

AmICrazy43 said:


> You totally nailed it! That's where I am heading now and I view it the same way you do. In fact, I think you have embraced what MGTOW is actually supposed to be about. I don't think of MGTOW in a political or social way whatsoever. It's a life choice and it's as simple as that. We'll still get criticized for it because people (women) can't handle the idea of MGTOW. If it's my choice, let me be and that's it.


Actually, I'm cool with it as a) I'm married b)I've reproduced c) The more people stay the hell away from me, the better!


----------



## musicftw07

AmICrazy43 said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> MGTOW as a lifestyle choice changed my life immeasurably for the better. No question.
> 
> MGTOW as a political and social movement is massively regressive. I have better things to do with my emotional energy than to hate and sulk, and I recognize that I am a part of society, not separate from it.
> 
> Any idea can be taken to the extreme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You totally nailed it! That's where I am heading now and I view it the same way you do. In fact, I think you have embraced what MGTOW is actually supposed to be about. I don't think of MGTOW in a political or social way whatsoever. It's a life choice and it's as simple as that. We'll still get criticized for it because people (women) can't handle the idea of MGTOW. If it's my choice, let me be and that's it.
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree!

Yes, I have discovered that some women really dislike the idea of MGTOW; that a man being comfortable in his own skin and with his own presence, no female required, is practically blasphemous.

I tend to think that women in the aggregate know they have a financial incentive to promote and engage in marriage. A man saying "No thanks, it's not worth the risk to me" destroys that incentive.

I also think that child bearing plays a large role. Women, by and large, want children. They need a man to do it. And by and large, any sperm will do. I think that's one factor (but by no means all) why divorce is so common after children. The man has done what she needed him to do, so he's shown the door.

Full disclosure: all signs point to me gladly marrying my girlfriend someday, and I've been through the terrible divorce court system. I say this because, for the first time in my life, I chose my partner WELL. ? I will still advocate that marriage can be a good thing, but only provided both people choose their partner well.

MGTOW will cause you to be highly selective. Which is a very, very good thing.


----------



## AmICrazy43

musicftw07 said:


> I absolutely agree!
> 
> Yes, I have discovered that some women really dislike the idea of MGTOW; that a man being comfortable in his own skin and with his own presence, no female required, is practically blasphemous.
> 
> I tend to think that women in the aggregate know they have a financial incentive to promote and engage in marriage. A man saying "No thanks, it's not worth the risk to me" destroys that incentive.
> 
> I also think that child bearing plays a large role. Women, by and large, want children. They need a man to do it. And by and large, any sperm will do. I think that's one factor (but by no means all) why divorce is so common after children. The man has done what she needed him to do, so he's shown the door.
> 
> Full disclosure: all signs point to me gladly marrying my girlfriend someday, and I've been through the terrible divorce court system. I say this because, for the first time in my life, I chose my partner WELL. ? I will still advocate that marriage can be a good thing, but only provided both people choose their partner well.
> 
> MGTOW will cause you to be highly selective. Which is a very, very good thing.


Again, great post! I agree that MGTOW allows men to be more selective. It opens men's eyes. I think most men can easily be overcome with infatuation for a woman that really "does it" for him and he will cast aside all of the red flags and wind up in a bad situation. Women have it much easier when it comes to finding "potential" partners because we all know what men's primary priority is...and as such women have many more choices when it comes to choosing a partner. So, while women have more options a lot of men get scared that they will not find someone and will "settle". Men have to learn that we do NOT have to settle. Once we get it, we will find a great woman that is perfect for us. That's how I see it anyway.


----------



## AmICrazy43

FrenchFry said:


> Actually, I'm cool with it as a) I'm married b)I've reproduced c) The more people stay the hell away from me, the better!


That's great! Sounds like you've made some great choices, are confident in yourself, and have found a fantastic partner in your life.

As an introvert with social anxiety, I def want people to stay the hell away from me!! :-D


----------



## Red Sonja

musicftw07 said:


> So you admit that some women can be selfish, narcissistic, and greedy of their own accord? That they can intentionally use men for their own personal gain? That they are this way due to their own lack of morals? And that they can use the legal system to do just that? (Please note the use of the word SOME, not ALL.)


*Of course ... there are immoral, disordered people of both genders ... and, that fact has nothing to do with the divorce rate or who initiates divorce.*




AmICrazy43 said:


> If all of those men are not marriage material then what does that say about the women that decided to marry them? *What does that say about their choice in men?*


*Not much, since there is no such thing as a "marriage material secret decoder ring" to weed out the personality disordered people.*


----------



## musicftw07

Hell, I'm an extrovert and I want people stay the hell away from me. lol


----------



## AmICrazy43

*Not much, since there is no such thing as a "marriage material secret decoder ring" to weed out the personality disordered people.*[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but unless you get married within 6 months of meeting someone you know what you're getting into. There is no secret decoder ring needed.


----------



## musicftw07

Red Sonja said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you admit that some women can be selfish, narcissistic, and greedy of their own accord? That they can intentionally use men for their own personal gain? That they are this way due to their own lack of morals? And that they can use the legal system to do just that? (Please note the use of the word SOME, not ALL.)
> 
> 
> 
> *Of course ... there are immoral, disordered people of both genders ... and, that fact has nothing to do with the divorce rate or who initiates divorce.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AmICrazy43 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If all of those men are not marriage material then what does that say about the women that decided to marry them? *What does that say about their choice in men?*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Not much, since there is no such thing as a "marriage material secret decoder ring" to weed out the personality disordered people.*
Click to expand...

It's not a coincidence that divorce favors women and that women initiate the vast majority of divorces. Your post feels like you're asserting that it is.

ETA: 80% of all married men are not all personality disordered. That is an incredibly ludicrous statement.


----------



## AmICrazy43

musicftw07 said:


> Hell, I'm an extrovert and I want people stay the hell away from me. lol


Lol!


----------



## Red Sonja

AmICrazy43 said:


> *Not much, since there is no such thing as a "marriage material secret decoder ring" to weed out the personality disordered people.*
> 
> I'm sorry, but unless you get married within 6 months of meeting someone you know what you're getting into. There is no secret decoder ring needed.


So, you can spot a Covert Narcissist or intelligent psychopath when they are in seduction/hoover mode? These types fool seasoned psychologists. Better get your decoder ring polished.


----------



## AmICrazy43

Red Sonja said:


> So, you can spot a Covert Narcissist or intelligent psychopath when they are in seduction/hoover mode? These types fool seasoned psychologists. Better get your decoder ring polished.


So you're saying that 80% of men are covert narcissists or psychopaths and that's why women finally divorce them?


----------



## Red Sonja

musicftw07 said:


> It's not a coincidence that divorce favors women and that women initiate the vast majority of divorces. Your post feels like you're asserting that it is.
> 
> ETA: 80% of all married men are not all personality disordered. That is an incredibly ludicrous statement.


Don't put words in my mouth please. For the record, the experts agree that 10% of the general population can be classified as "highly narcissistic" (to include clinical NPD). That's 1 in 10 people that are capable of serious malice and destruction if you are unlucky enough to marry them.


----------



## Ynot

inmyprime said:


> For women maybe (not ALL women, but most women require emotional connection to feel happy/loved). For men, typically sexual need is highly correlated with emotional need. It's in fact almost interchangeable. After sex, I feel emotionally MUCH better  And from friends (and especially this website), I know I am not the only neanderthal who feels this way.
> 
> The typical formula is like this: wife has kids. Sex goes down the drain. Husband begins to resent wife (because men hate asking for sex. Woman is supposed to just...know when he's horny. Though she doesn't). Wife feels husband is cold, can't be arsed to do anything and is not supportive. Then either of them are at high risk of cheating or live miserably ever after. It's nobody's fault. It's just what happens. Unless people are aware of these risks, are good at communicating and are highly empathetic towards each other.
> They should teach this in schools. Together with how bees mate.
> 
> Desire for sex with your partner is a very underrated glue that holds a couple together. Some seem to be ashamed to admit it because the brain says that it can't be that simple. For men, it certainly can and is (a lot of the time).
> 
> Here's a little experiment:
> Take an average guy and not have sex with him for 6 months or so. See how quickly the **** hits the fan.
> You got yourself a ticking spunk bomb waiting to detonate.
> 
> Of course this is a generalisation and many other things can go wrong. But for majority of couples (50%+) this is what tends to happen.


I am a guy. I was in a largely sexless marriage and I can tell you that a perfunctory daily BJ would not have made me feel any closer to my wife. Sexless marriages typically have issues that are far deeper than just not having sex. The sexlessness is simply another symptom of much larger issues of incompatibility.

You have made a large, sweeping generalization based upon your own stunted development. I can tell you that I am NOT a Neanderthal. My desire for my wife extended beyond the simple need of sexual release. If that is the extent of your needs I feel sorry for your wife. And for you. Grow up. There is more to a marriage than BJs.


----------



## musicftw07

Red Sonja said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a coincidence that divorce favors women and that women initiate the vast majority of divorces. Your post feels like you're asserting that it is.
> 
> ETA: 80% of all married men are not all personality disordered. That is an incredibly ludicrous statement.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't put words in my mouth please. For the record, the experts agree that 10% of the general population can be classified as "highly narcissistic" (to include clinical NPD). That's 1 in 10 people that are capable of serious malice and destruction if you are unlucky enough to marry them.
Click to expand...

Then make your assertions more clearly. This thread is about why women file for 80% of divorces. You submitted an argument that women can't determine if a man is personality disordered or not. It stands to reason that that is your argument as to why.

If you are now saying that is not the reason why, then why make that assertion in the first place?


----------



## AmICrazy43

Red Sonja said:


> Don't put words in my mouth please. For the record, the experts agree that 10% of the general population can be classified as "highly narcissistic" (to include clinical NPD). That's 1 in 10 people that are capable of serious malice and destruction if you are unlucky enough to marry them.


10% of the general population you say. How many of those people get married? How many get divorced? How many are men and how many are women? Do you want to drop the percentage in the thread title down to 78%? Stay on topic please.

:grin2:


----------



## Ynot

musicftw07 said:


> I have heard the argument from women many, many times that if women are initiating 80% of the divorces, then clearly 80% of all married men aren't worthy.
> 
> It may not have been spoken here, but it's definitely spoken.
> 
> It is also telling that divorce is protection and for child support, according to your claim. Naturally, women would have an incentive to keep the paradigm of men paying.
> 
> Please understand, in no way am I calling you out personally. I'm speaking in the aggregate. Individual opinions mean nothing when compared to what large groups advocate and actually vote for. NOW would never endorse a nationwide 50/50 default federal law.


I am pretty sure that if you have taken basic math you should understand as it has been explained to you before. I will quote it here for you:

"Popular culture states that about 50% of marriages end in divorce. In reality about 29% of all marriages end in divorce. That stats are also that about 70% of divorces are filed by women. So it's 70% of about 29% of marriage in which women file for divorce."

So if you use just these statistics (and make the large and unsubstantiated assumption that every single one of the men in divorces filed by women are completely 100% faultless) then the math goes as follows:

29% of marriages X 70% filed by women = 20.3% of married men aren't worthy. Again that is making the huge, unproven and irrational assumption that every single one of those men who women filed from divorce from aren't worthy. Your argument is so flawed as to laughable. I really wish you take some time to consider reality and perhaps take a basic math class if need be.


----------



## musicftw07

Ynot said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have heard the argument from women many, many times that if women are initiating 80% of the divorces, then clearly 80% of all married men aren't worthy.
> 
> It may not have been spoken here, but it's definitely spoken.
> 
> It is also telling that divorce is protection and for child support, according to your claim. Naturally, women would have an incentive to keep the paradigm of men paying.
> 
> Please understand, in no way am I calling you out personally. I'm speaking in the aggregate. Individual opinions mean nothing when compared to what large groups advocate and actually vote for. NOW would never endorse a nationwide 50/50 default federal law.
> 
> 
> 
> I am pretty sure that if you have taken basic math you should understand as it has been explained to you before. I will quote it here for you:
> 
> "Popular culture states that about 50% of marriages end in divorce. In reality about 29% of all marriages end in divorce. That stats are also that about 70% of divorces are filed by women. So it's 70% of about 29% of marriage in which women file for divorce."
> 
> So if you use just these statistics (and make the large and unsubstantiated assumption that every single one of the men in divorces filed by women are completely 100% faultless) then the math goes as follows:
> 
> 29% of marriages X 70% filed by women = 20.3% of married men aren't worthy. Again that is making the huge, unproven and irrational assumption that every single one of those men who women filed from divorce from aren't worthy. Your argument is so flawed as to laughable. I really wish you take some time to consider reality and perhaps take a basic math class if need be.
Click to expand...

Source.

ETA: I will admit I chose my words poorly. 80% of divorces does not equal 80% of all marriages, as divorce is a subset of marriage.

However, let's take 70% as the number instead of 80%. That is still absurdly high.


----------



## AmICrazy43

Ynot said:


> I am pretty sure that if you have taken basic math you should understand as it has been explained to you before. I will quote it here for you:
> 
> "Popular culture states that about 50% of marriages end in divorce. In reality about 29% of all marriages end in divorce. That stats are also that about 70% of divorces are filed by women. So it's 70% of about 29% of marriage in which women file for divorce."
> 
> So if you use just these statistics (and make the large and unsubstantiated assumption that every single one of the men in divorces filed by women are completely 100% faultless) then the math goes as follows:
> 
> 29% of marriages X 70% filed by women = 20.3% of married men aren't worthy. Again that is making the huge, unproven and irrational assumption that every single one of those men who women filed from divorce from aren't worthy. Your argument is so flawed as to laughable. I really wish you take some time to consider reality and perhaps take a basic math class if need be.


You make some really good posts but I think you're missing the point a bit here. It doesn't matter what percentage of marriages end in divorce. As the the thread title states 80% of all divorces are initiated by women. The only thing you're saying here that is different is that you believe it's 70% rather than 80% of the time. This is about percentages and in actuality, if you look at the numbers you presented, your math is wrong. This is about percentages and that doesn't change. "29% of marriages X 70% filed by women" is incorrect to apply to your formula. It's percentage based. I see where you are going but you over complicated it. The percentage is still the same (either 80% 0r 70% depending on the source). That part doesn't change.

It's about divorces not about the total number of marriages. It doesn't matter what percentage of marriages end in divorce, it's about the percentage of divorces that occur that are initiated by women. Hope that clears things up a bit.


----------



## Ynot

musicftw07 said:


> Source.


Source for what? Basic math?

For God's sake use the OP's statistics then, the math still does not favor your idiotic conclusion that 80% of men are not worthy.
Since you seem to have problems with basic math, again I will do the calculations for you:

50% divorce rate x 80% filed by women = 40% of men who are not worthy. And again this is making the very large, totally unsubstantiated and completely irrational assumption that 100% of the men who were filed on were completely and totally faultless.

40% is WAAAAYYYY less than 80%.


----------



## 269370

Ynot said:


> I am a guy. I was in a largely sexless marriage and I can tell you that a perfunctory daily BJ would not have made me feel any closer to my wife. Sexless marriages typically have issues that are far deeper than just not having sex. The sexlessness is simply another symptom of much larger issues of incompatibility.
> 
> You have made a large, sweeping generalization based upon your own stunted development. I can tell you that I am NOT a Neanderthal. My desire for my wife extended beyond the simple need of sexual release. If that is the extent of your needs I feel sorry for your wife. And for you. Grow up. There is more to a marriage than BJs.


Yes of course, there is also anal...

Look, I clearly said that this was the majority (50% and up) and I made it clear that I was not speaking for ALL men out there. And don't get hung up on BJs. I meant any sexual activity that establishes a connection with the partner. For some it's sex, for others it can be BJs (some women consider BJs a more intimate activity than sex). 

Are we reading the same board? Every other post from a guy is about how he wished his wife would have more sex with him.
You may fall outside those 50% however you did mention 'sexless marriage'. I don't know your story but perhaps you can link to it so I can read what the problem was. I am always interested in anyone's stories that fall outside the bell curve.

I used to think relationships are complicated from men's point of view (not ALL men, but the majority). Now that I have finally grown up, I realise that the cure can be quite simple. However if you want to dress it up and put lipstick onto the problem, be my guest :wink2:


----------



## AmICrazy43

Ynot said:


> Source for what? Basic math?
> 
> For God's sake use the OP's statistics then, the math still does not favor your idiotic conclusion that 80% of men are not worthy.
> Since you seem to have problems with basic math, again I will do the calculations for you:
> 
> 50% divorce rate x 80% filed by women = 40% of men who are not worthy. And again this is making the very large, totally unsubstantiated and completely irrational assumption that 100% of the men who were filed on were completely and totally faultless.
> 
> 40% is WAAAAYYYY less than 80%.


Ah! I had to re-read the post you quoted. I get your point now. My bad.


----------



## Ynot

AmICrazy43 said:


> You make some really good posts but I think you're missing the point a bit here. It doesn't matter what percentage of marriages end in divorce. As the the thread title states 80% of all divorces are initiated by women. The only thing you're saying here that is different is that you believe it's 70% rather than 80% of the time. This is about percentages and in actuality, if you look at the numbers you presented, your math is wrong. This is about percentages and that doesn't change. "29% of marriages X 70% filed by women" is incorrect to apply to your formula. It's percentage based. I see where you are going but you over complicated it. The percentage is still the same (either 80% 0r 70% depending on the source). That part doesn't change.


No I am not missing any point. But YOU are drawing irrational conclusions out of thin air based on what? The assumption that every single one of those men who were filed on was completely and totally faultless.
Grow up and look at reality. In almost every instance there is more thane enough blame to go around.
The fact that you are willing to make the assumption that everyone of those 80% of men who are filed on are completely blameless, tells me that you probably have never taken the time to consider your own part in your own life.
You do not need a movement like MGTOW to "allow" you to make a choice, you always have a choice. So your choice is either to grow and learn from your experience so that YOU do not make the same mistake twice or to become bitter and angry and make gross generalizations about all women.


----------



## musicftw07

Ynot said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Source.
> 
> 
> 
> Source for what? Basic math?
> 
> For God's sake use the OP's statistics then, the math still does not favor your idiotic conclusion that 80% of men are not worthy.
> Since you seem to have problems with basic math, again I will do the calculations for you:
> 
> 50% divorce rate x 80% filed by women = 40% of men who are not worthy. And again this is making the very large, totally unsubstantiated and completely irrational assumption that 100% of the men who were filed on were completely and totally faultless.
> 
> 40% is WAAAAYYYY less than 80%.
Click to expand...

Source = post a link that substantiates your quoted numbers.

I've already stated I chose my woods poorly. You are correct, 80% of men being unworthy is incorrect, as not every marriage ends in divorce.

Now back up your numbers. Provide a link that shows the study done that corroborates your claim. I looked at the OP, and there is no link there.


----------



## AmICrazy43

Ynot said:


> No I am not missing any point. But YOU are drawing irrational conclusions out of thin air based on what? The assumption that every single one of those men who were filed on was completely and totally faultless.
> Grow up and look at reality. In almost every instance there is more thane enough blame to go around.
> The fact that you are willing to make the assumption that everyone of those 80% of men who are filed on are completely blameless, tells me that you probably have never taken the time to consider your own part in your own life.
> *You do not need a movement like MGTOW to "allow" you to make a choice, you always have a choice.* So your choice is either to grow and learn from your experience so that YOU do not make the same mistake twice or to become bitter and angry and make gross generalizations about all women.


I think you're still missing the point of this thread. No amount of math is going to help you with that. You can skew your numbers to make this thread into something that it isn't all you want but the FACT does not change.

70 t0 80% of filed divorces are initiated by women. You can't dispute that.

That means that 70 to 80% of women made what they consider to be a bad decision. Take some percentage off of that to accommodate for the narcissistic and psychopathic men that got married and you are still left with a large number. Basic math...

As to the bold, MGTOW is a choice based on just that. You just don't get it...


----------



## Ynot

inmyprime said:


> Yes of course, there is also anal...
> 
> Look, I clearly said that this was the majority (50% and up) and I made it clear that I was not speaking for ALL men out there. And don't get hung up on BJs. I meant any sexual activity that establishes a connection with the partner. For some it's sex, for others it can be BJs (some women consider BJs a more intimate activity than sex).
> 
> Are we reading the same board? Every other post from a guy is about how he wished his wife would have more sex with him.
> You may fall outside those 50% however you did mention 'sexless marriage'. I don't know your story but perhaps you can link to it so I can read what the problem was. I am always interested in anyone's stories that fall outside the bell curve.
> 
> I used to think relationships are complicated from men's point of view (not ALL men, but the majority). Now that I have finally grown up, I realise that the cure can be quite simple. However if you want to dress it up and put lipstick onto the problem, be my guest :wink2:


Wow, you have grown up? It sounds like you have regressed into the mind of a preteen boy. Relationships are NOT simple. There are two moving parts, both have which have a variety of wants, needs and desires, all of which change daily. If all you need is a daily BJ, knock yourself out. But you are far from the norm, or way outside the Bell curve if you will.


----------



## musicftw07

Ynot said:


> You do not need a movement like MGTOW


Aaaand there it is.

As long as you're throwing out insults, you clearly need reading comprehension skills. I posted earlier that I think MGTOW men who are bitter and misogynistic are regressive, and I urged others to not be that way. I clearly stated that I find value in the lifestyle of self-improvement, not wasting emotional energy being bitter or hateful. I also stated to be cautious with the red pill in order to not become that way.

I also stated that odds are very high I'm going to marry my girlfriend someday.

I clearly don't subscribe to the attitudes with which you are labeling me.

If you get twisted up by the fact that I question why women initiate the vast majority of divorces, that's on you.

And if you don't like what I have to say, click the Ignore button.


----------



## Ynot

AmICrazy43 said:


> I think you're still missing the point of this thread. No amount of math is going to help you with that. You can skew your numbers to make this thread into something that it isn't all you want but the FACT does not change.
> 
> 70 t0 80% of filed divorces are initiated by women. You can't dispute that.
> 
> That means that 70 to 80% of women made what they consider to be a bad decision. Take some percentage off of that to accommodate for the narcissistic and psychopathic men that got married and you are still left with a large number. Basic math...
> 
> As to the bold, MGTOW is a choice based on just that. You just don't get it...


First off, my use of math was to correct the irrational assertion that you made that 80% of men are not worthy because some woman divorces them. I am not "skewing" any numbers. Do the math on whatever figures you want and you cannot draw the illogical conclusion that 80% of men are unworthy.
Second off, I have never denied that most divorces are filed by women, so I have no clue what you are talking about me disputing that. In fact, right here on this very thread I have written extensively about it - based on facts and reality, not some hand selected factoids and poorly understood half truths spoon fed to me by some movement
Thirdly, that doesn't mean that 70% to 80% made a bad decision, it just means that 70% to 80% chose to file for divorce FOR WHATEVER REASON they decided to. Despite your apparent black and white thinking, people change as do their wants, needs and desires. That doesn't mean anyone made a wrong decision, nor does it mean that anyone is not worthy. It simply means that the marriage that may have formerly met their needs, now no longer does so.
Finally, you can chalk up whatever you want to some movement, but the reality is THAT YOU ALREADY HAD A CHOICE, you do not need a movement, whether it be NOW, MGTOW, MoveOn, Occupy Wall Street or the Tea Party to "allow" you to make a choice. Because you ALREADY have a choice! To say someone or something "allows" you to do something is to give up your own self.


----------



## AmICrazy43

musicftw07 said:


> Aaaand there it is.
> 
> As long as you're throwing out insults, you clearly need reading comprehension skills. I posted earlier that I think MGTOW men who are bitter and misogynistic are regressive, and I urged others to not be that way. I clearly stated that I find value in the lifestyle of self-improvement, not wasting emotional energy being bitter or hateful. I also stated to be cautious with the red pill in order to not become that way.
> 
> I also stated that odds are very high I'm going to marry my girlfriend someday.
> 
> I clearly don't subscribe to the attitudes with which you are labeling me.
> 
> If you get twisted up by the fact that I question why women initiate the vast majority of divorces, that's on you.
> 
> And if you don't like what I have to say, click the Ignore button.



This! Very well stated. I too feel that MGTOW is a tool to better oneself, not to bitter oneself. This is where most people that don't understand what MGTOW is get confused, defensive, and down right aggressive. 

For anyone thinking about going MGTOW (raises hand), this poster has nailed it and epitomized what it is all about. MGTOW is not about hate or misogyny in any way, shape, or form.

Thanks for posting this musicftw07!


----------



## 269370

Ynot said:


> Wow, you have grown up? It sounds like you have regressed into the mind of a preteen boy. Relationships are NOT simple. There are two moving parts, both have which have a variety of wants, needs and desires, all of which change daily. If all you need is a daily BJ, knock yourself out. But you are far from the norm, or way outside the Bell curve if you will.



You are still going on about BJs....I mentioned them symbolically, how many times...

I don’t think you understand where I’m coming from: if it can be made clear to women that majority of men would appreciate regular sexual interaction and initiation, I believe it would solve MANY problems in a marriage. Not all the problems but many problems that men complain about, including here on these boards. 
I can see how the humorous way in which I write can seem offensive and imbecilic so feel free to ignore me if you are offended. I appreciate some on here are ‘delicate souls’, with many ‘moving parts’, other than the penile parts. Which is fine.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## AmICrazy43

Ynot said:


> First off, my use of math was to correct the irrational assertion that you made that 80% of men are not worthy because some woman divorces them. I am not "skewing" any numbers. Do the math on whatever figures you want and you cannot draw the illogical conclusion that 80% of men are unworthy.
> Second off, I have never denied that most divorces are filed by women, so I have no clue what you are talking about me disputing that. In fact, right here on this very thread I have written extensively about it - based on facts and reality, not some hand selected factoids and poorly understood half truths spoon fed to me by some movement
> Thirdly, that doesn't mean that 70% to 80% made a bad decision, it just means that 70% to 80% chose to file for divorce FOR WHATEVER REASON they decided to. Despite your apparent black and white thinking, people change as do their wants, needs and desires. That doesn't mean anyone made a wrong decision, nor does it mean that anyone is not worthy. It simply means that the marriage that may have formerly met their needs, now no longer does so.
> Finally, you can chalk up whatever you want to some movement, but the reality is THAT YOU ALREADY HAD A CHOICE, you do not need a movement, whether it be NOW, MGTOW, MoveOn, Occupy Wall Street or the Tea Party to "allow" you to make a choice. Because you ALREADY have a choice! To say someone or something "allows" you to do something is to give up your own self.


First off, I didn't make that assertion. And, the poster that did corrected himself to that point.

Second off, you seem really hell bent about a "movement".

Thirdly, it does mean they made a bad decision. It's apparent that you can't wrap your head around this. And, it goes both way for men AND women. Yes, it appears based on the MATH that people's needs, wants, and desires do change and when it comes to divorces it appears that 70 to 80% of the time it's the women's wants, needs, and desires are what changes. Again, basic math...

Finally, people do have a choice. I know what I choose. I choose to not be with people that have made bad choices in their life. I'm not sorry if that offends you.


----------



## musicftw07

Ynot said:


> AmICrazy43 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're still missing the point of this thread. No amount of math is going to help you with that. You can skew your numbers to make this thread into something that it isn't all you want but the FACT does not change.
> 
> 70 t0 80% of filed divorces are initiated by women. You can't dispute that.
> 
> That means that 70 to 80% of women made what they consider to be a bad decision. Take some percentage off of that to accommodate for the narcissistic and psychopathic men that got married and you are still left with a large number. Basic math...
> 
> As to the bold, MGTOW is a choice based on just that. You just don't get it...
> 
> 
> 
> First off, my use of math was to correct the irrational assertion that you made that 80% of men are not worthy because some woman divorces them. I am not "skewing" any numbers. Do the math on whatever figures you want and you cannot draw the illogical conclusion that 80% of men are unworthy.
> Second off, I have never denied that most divorces are filed by women, so I have no clue what you are talking about me disputing that. In fact, right here on this very thread I have written extensively about it - based on facts and reality, not some hand selected factoids and poorly understood half truths spoon fed to me by some movement
> Thirdly, that doesn't mean that 70% to 80% made a bad decision, it just means that 70% to 80% chose to file for divorce FOR WHATEVER REASON they decided to. Despite your apparent black and white thinking, people change as do their wants, needs and desires. That doesn't mean anyone made a wrong decision, nor does it mean that anyone is not worthy. It simply means that the marriage that may have formerly met their needs, now no longer does so.
> Finally, you can chalk up whatever you want to some movement, but the reality is THAT YOU ALREADY HAD A CHOICE, you do not need a movement, whether it be NOW, MGTOW, MoveOn, Occupy Wall Street or the Tea Party to "allow" you to make a choice. Because you ALREADY have a choice! To say someone or something "allows" you to do something is to give up your own self.
Click to expand...

Step down from the ledge.

It's not up to you to determine what I need and/or want. That is my choice. What is important is that, whatever I may choose to do in this life, I am happy.

And I can say, in this moment, I am 100% happy with who I am, where I am going, and the choices I am making.

Again, if that gets your underwear twisted in a knot, that's on YOU. And your state of mind is of no concern to me.


----------



## Ynot

musicftw07 said:


> Aaaand there it is.
> 
> As long as you're throwing out insults, you clearly need reading comprehension skills. I posted earlier that I think MGTOW men who are bitter and misogynistic are regressive, and I urged others to not be that way. I clearly stated that I find value in the lifestyle of self-improvement, not wasting emotional energy being bitter or hateful. I also stated to be cautious with the red pill in order to not become that way.
> 
> I also stated that odds are very high I'm going to marry my girlfriend someday.
> 
> I clearly don't subscribe to the attitudes with which you are labeling me.
> 
> If you get twisted up by the fact that I question why women initiate the vast majority of divorces, that's on you.
> 
> And if you don't like what I have to say, click the Ignore button.


Speaking of comprehension skills...
#1 I was NOT responding to you aaand,
#2 the entire statement was: You do not need a movement like MGTOW *to "allow" you to make a choice
*
Look if you want to cede control of your life over to someone else have at it. You will only end up doing what you are doing here, which is to blame others for your own shortcomings. 
I don't ignore people, that is what cowards do. I enjoy engaging people who hold irrational opinions. They like to go down rabbit holes to escape the light of day


----------



## musicftw07

Ynot said:


> musicftw07 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aaaand there it is.
> 
> As long as you're throwing out insults, you clearly need reading comprehension skills. I posted earlier that I think MGTOW men who are bitter and misogynistic are regressive, and I urged others to not be that way. I clearly stated that I find value in the lifestyle of self-improvement, not wasting emotional energy being bitter or hateful. I also stated to be cautious with the red pill in order to not become that way.
> 
> I also stated that odds are very high I'm going to marry my girlfriend someday.
> 
> I clearly don't subscribe to the attitudes with which you are labeling me.
> 
> If you get twisted up by the fact that I question why women initiate the vast majority of divorces, that's on you.
> 
> And if you don't like what I have to say, click the Ignore button.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of comprehension skills...
> #1 I was NOT responding to you aaand,
> #2 the entire statement was: You do not need a movement like MGTOW *to "allow" you to make a choice
> *
> Look if you want to cede control of your life over to someone else have at it. You will only end up doing what you are doing here, which is to blame others for your own shortcomings.
> I don't ignore people, that is what cowards do. I enjoy engaging people who hold irrational opinions. They like to go down rabbit holes to escape the light of day
Click to expand...

Making snap judgments about people you don't know is generally considered to be a negative trait. Just putting that out there.

If all you've got are personal attacks, then I'm not interested in further discourse. Should you decide to engage in honest debate instead of ad hominem, I may reconsider.

Have a good day, sir.


----------



## Blondilocks

AmICrazy43 said:


> I think you're still missing the point of this thread. No amount of math is going to help you with that. You can skew your numbers to make this thread into something that it isn't all you want but the FACT does not change.
> 
> 70 t0 80% of filed divorces are initiated by women. You can't dispute that.
> 
> That means that 70 to 80% of women made what they consider to be a bad decision. Take some percentage off of that to accommodate for the narcissistic and psychopathic men that got married and you are still left with a large number. Basic math...
> 
> As to the bold, MGTOW is a choice based on just that. You just don't get it...


Pardon my interrupting the pissing contest going on; but, women don't necessarily think they made a bad decision when they decided to marry their spouse or when they decided to divorce him. They file for divorce because they are unhappy with the current state of their union.

Carry on.


----------



## Red Sonja

I agree with @Ynot that both @musicftw07 and @AmICrazy43 desperately need classes in math and reading comprehension skills. It’s like herding cats trying to have a discussion with these two.

Good luck with that.


----------



## sokillme

What is interesting to me is when their are posts about men who don't pay child support. Men who have affairs on their wives. Men who don't bother to raise their own children. (Which I welcome and think we should have more of, I love bashing *******s, it's fun). But when their are such posts I never fell compelled to come on here and advocate for men in general because of it. I just think yeah lot of men suck. 

However whenever their is a story about women who suck, inevitably their will always be one or two people (because it can be men or women) who come on here and post the arbitrary "Men do it too" or "Not all women do it" or "Why do you hate all women!"

I am curious why that is? It's like amazingly consistent. Like do you folks feel compelled to defend the honor of all women? Maybe men do this to and I don't realize. 

Like even if a poster says something ignorant which sometimes they do, instead of saying, poster what you said was ignorant (which I am all for by the way) there will be a post about how TAM is full of chauvinists. Personally I think you could call us grumpy *******s, but I don't think it is gender based. We are more like Hockey fans as apposed to Baseball fans. 

Personally I think that most people of both genders (that "both" will probably get me in trouble I'm sure) have a hard time having empathy for the other. I think empathy is a hard thing for people in general, and even more so for people in the social media age. Typing and screens seem impersonal and that is like 50% of how all communication is done. 

Anyway the truth is both sexes suck. There is probably about 40% of each who are even capable of having a decent long lasting relationship and not screwing it up. But we could all do with a little more grace for everyone, at least the ones who are trying. 

For instance @EleGirl every time I hear about how terrible your ex husbands were to you I think, you never had a chance (and that is not your fault). But I think probably 90% of all the male posters on this board would have been better husbands to you then these guys because at least they would have worked. That just makes me sad because you got stuck with what me and I am sure most of the other male posters on this board would consider the worst of what a man should be. 
@Red Sonja if you were willing to do that for you husband and he always turned you down, I think how tragic. Their are so many posts from men who would run through walls to have a wife who was like that. It's a shame you were with a man who didn't appreciate it. 

Anyway, whatever.


----------



## AmICrazy43

Blondilocks said:


> Pardon my interrupting the pissing contest going on; but, women don't necessarily think they made a bad decision when they decided to marry their spouse or when they decided to divorce him. They file for divorce because they are unhappy with the current state of their union.
> 
> Carry on.


I think your point is valid. They don't "think" they made a bad decision at the time but for whatever reason it was a bad decision and then they divorce them. You're missing the point, but that's expected


----------



## musicftw07

Red Sonja said:


> I agree with @Ynot that both @musicftw07 and @AmICrazy43 desperately need classes in math and reading comprehension skills. It’s like herding cats trying to have a discussion with these two.
> 
> Good luck with that.


Attack the argument, not the person. Pick apart everything I have to say. Challenge my convictions. Convince me with logic.

I've stated it's a concern that 70% - 80% of all divorces are initiated by women. You clearly disagree. Tell me why.

If you'd rather attack me personally, then tell me that right now so I'm not wasting my time with you.


----------



## AmICrazy43

Red Sonja said:


> I agree with @Ynot that both @musicftw07 and @AmICrazy43 desperately need classes in math and reading comprehension skills. It’s like herding cats trying to have a discussion with these two.
> 
> Good luck with that.


And more insults. Thanks!


----------



## Blondilocks

AmICrazy43 said:


> I think your point is valid. They don't "think" they made a bad decision at the time but for whatever reason it was a bad decision and then they divorce them. You're missing the point, but that's expected


Seeing as you are bent on thinking in terms of black and white to suit your agenda; I contend you are missing the point, but that's expected.


----------



## musicftw07

Blondilocks said:


> AmICrazy43 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you're still missing the point of this thread. No amount of math is going to help you with that. You can skew your numbers to make this thread into something that it isn't all you want but the FACT does not change.
> 
> 70 t0 80% of filed divorces are initiated by women. You can't dispute that.
> 
> That means that 70 to 80% of women made what they consider to be a bad decision. Take some percentage off of that to accommodate for the narcissistic and psychopathic men that got married and you are still left with a large number. Basic math...
> 
> As to the bold, MGTOW is a choice based on just that. You just don't get it...
> 
> 
> 
> Pardon my interrupting the pissing contest going on; but, women don't necessarily think they made a bad decision when they decided to marry their spouse or when they decided to divorce him. They file for divorce because they are unhappy with the current state of their union.
> 
> Carry on.
Click to expand...

Exactly. They file because they are unhappy with the current state of their union. That is indisputable.

As a man, consequences of that are losing my child, child support, loss of assets...

That is a concern for me. What I haven't heard yet is a convincing argument of why it shouldn't be.


----------



## 269370

Urrgh. This must be one of the worst threads ever...Can we go back to BJs please? And how to want to give them between 70-80% of the time? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

AmICrazy43 said:


> I think your point is valid. They don't "think" they made a bad decision at the time but for whatever reason it was a bad decision and then they divorce them. You're missing the point, but that's expected


So you think it is valid that the wife could be unhappy, but couldn't it be just as valid that the husband is just as unhappy but just doesn't pull the trigger? Maybe (to run through a few theories) we are better or more able to live with being emotionally unhappy longer? We think we have to culturally? We don't expect as much from marriage as our wives do? 

I mean don't confuse causality. All the 80% means is that 80% of women are the ones to call it. It doesn't mean that the man wasn't the greatest husband in the world. It also doesn't mean she wasn't justified in her calling it because he was an ass. Also after reading on here and other boards, where the cheating is like 50-50, or other kinds of abuse I would argue maybe 50% of those marriages should be called and whoever did is a hero. Divorce isn't always a bad thing sometimes it's salvation, and that could be true for either sex. 

Plus have you seen all the men on these boards who pine away for wives who are complete garbage? Those guys don't divorce even though any sane person would. And shockingly at least to my mind when I started reading, there is a hell of a lot of guys like this. Guys try to nice them back women who cheat on them over and over. Finally their abusive wife moves on to the next putz. If anything this study says to me, a person who feels the % of bad spouses is pretty equal when it comes to gender, that men put up with way to much crap way too long and they should bail much quicker. So lets work on getting that number to more like 50-50! > If they do the chances of paying for alimony and such are much smaller too.


----------



## AmICrazy43

Blondilocks said:


> Seeing as you are bent on thinking in terms of black and white to suit your agenda; I contend you are missing the point, but that's expected.


Another pejorative post...wrong.


----------



## 269370

sokillme said:


> So you think it is valid that the wife could be unhappy, but couldn't it be just as valid that the husband is just as unhappy but just doesn't pull the trigger? Maybe (to run through a few theories) we are better or more able to live with being emotionally unhappy longer? We think we have to culturally? We don't expect as much from marriage as our wives do?
> 
> I mean don't confuse causality. All the 80% means is that 80% of women are the ones to call it. It doesn't mean that the man wasn't the greatest husband in the world. It also doesn't mean she wasn't justified in her calling it because he was an ass. Also after reading on here and other boards, where the cheating is like 50-50, or other kinds of abuse I would argue maybe 50% of those marriages should be called and whoever did is a hero. Divorce isn't always a bad thing sometimes it's salvation, and that could be true for either sex.
> 
> Plus have you seen all the men on these boards who pine away for wives who are complete garbage? Those guys don't divorce even though any sane person would. And shockingly at least to my mind when I started reading, there is a hell of a lot of guys like this. Guys try to nice them back women who cheat on them over and over. Finally their abusive wife moves on to the next putz. If anything this study says to me, a person who feels the % of bad spouses is pretty equal when it comes to gender, that men put up with way to much crap way too long and they should bail much quicker. So lets work on getting that number to more like 50-50! > If they do the chances of paying for alimony and such are much smaller too.



Isn’t there simply a lack of financial motivation for the man to file for divorce in many cases? I read that it’s more advantageous for women to file.
I think in UK, it’s all 50/50. So I gave all my money to wife, so that in case she divorces me, I will be getting half of all her assets! (Which were mine to begin with but hopefully I will not remember this later).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Red Sonja

musicftw07 said:


> Attack the argument, not the person. Pick apart everything I have to say. Challenge my convictions. Convince me with logic.
> 
> I've stated it's a concern that 70% - 80% of all divorces are initiated by women. You clearly disagree. Tell me why.
> 
> If you'd rather *attack me personally*, then tell me that right now so I'm not wasting my time with you.





AmICrazy43 said:


> And more *insults*. Thanks!


*Pot meet kettle.*


@Ynot, myself and others have tried to use facts and logic toward your "arguments" to no effect. @Ynot was even patient enough to go through the math for you. Both of you appear to read posts (mine and others) and see words and conclusions that are not there and you seem to prefer sweeping generalizations and opinion over hard facts. And so, there is no "logical argument" possible in this situation. Perhaps the subject is too emotionally charged for you? IDK.

I see that one of you just insulted @Blondilocks :slap:

Peace, just continue "going your own way".


----------



## AmICrazy43

sokillme said:


> So you think it is valid that the wife could be unhappy, but couldn't it be just as valid that the husband is just as unhappy but just doesn't pull the trigger? Maybe (to run through a few theories) we are better or more able to live with being emotionally unhappy longer? We think we have to culturally? We don't expect as much from marriage as our wives do?
> 
> I mean don't confuse causality. All the 80% means is that 80% of women are the ones to call it. It doesn't mean that the man wasn't the greatest husband in the world. It also doesn't mean she wasn't justified in her calling it because he was an ass. Also after reading on here and other boards, where the cheating is like 50-50, or other kinds of abuse I would argue maybe 50% of those marriages should be called and whoever did is a hero. Divorce isn't always a bad thing sometimes it's salvation, and that could be true for either sex.
> 
> Plus have you seen all the men on these boards who pine away for wives who are complete garbage? Those guys don't divorce even though any sane person would. And shockingly at least to my mind when I started reading, there is a hell of a lot of guys like this. Guys try to nice them back women who cheat on them over and over. Finally their abusive wife moves on to the next putz. If anything this study says to me, a person who feels the % of bad spouses is pretty equal when it comes to gender, that men put up with way to much crap way too long and they should bail much quicker. So lets work on getting that number to more like 50-50! > If they do the chances of paying for alimony and such are much smaller too.


You make great points but it also validates a lot of what has been said in this thread. The system is stacked against men. Men have a lot to lose by divorcing.

In your last paragraph, you're right, there are a lot of bad women out there, just as there are bad men. I think the point is two fold: The system is against men AND people know who they married, made a commitment and when things don't go their way or their needs aren't met they divorce. These people didn't marry a stranger. They knew what they were getting into. Since women initiate at such a higher rate, they must have "settled" and thought the other person would change or their needs and expectations were raised and the man couldn't meet that criteria. I don't have the answer, only the evidence.


----------



## AmICrazy43

Red Sonja said:


> *Pot meet kettle.*
> 
> 
> @Ynot, myself and others have tried to use facts and logic toward your "arguments" to no effect. @Ynot was even patient enough to go through the math for you. Both of you appear to read posts (mine and others) and see words and conclusions that are not there and you seem to prefer sweeping generalizations and opinion over hard facts. And so, there is no "logical argument" possible in this situation. Perhaps the subject is too emotionally charged for you? IDK.
> 
> *I see that one of you just insulted @Blondilocks :slap:*
> 
> Peace, just continue "going your own way".


Talk about pot meet kettle. No one insulted Blondilocks, it was the other way around :slap:


----------



## ConanHub

I'm trying to recall threads by women bashing on bad behavior in men, sweeping with a broad brush, and I'm having trouble remembering any?


----------



## masterclicker

I cannot say that I have read this entire thread, so not sure if this has been discussed here, but I have read that there is a growing trend for divorces among the senior segment of the population. I believe women are overwhelmingly the initiators in that demographic as well. It was revealed that many of these older women divorcing their husbands just reached a state in their marriages where they no longer had children at home to be concerned about, no longer had any romantic feelings for their husbands, and they felt their remaining years of their lives were not going to be spent without happiness. (would like to see some follow up study on them to see if they have found happiness or ended up regretting their decision) Are there any studies on divorce trends in other age groups?


----------



## sokillme

ConanHub said:


> I'm trying to recall threads by women bashing on bad behavior in men, sweeping with a broad brush, and I'm having trouble remembering any?


Lets start one if only so we have one to reference. :grin2:


----------



## Rick Blaine

Kurt Vonnegut wrote a novel entitled "Venus on the Half Shell." In this novel and intergalactic traveler finds immortality and hooks up with a lovely android. Together they fall in love and wander the galaxy having adventures and misadventures. 10,000 years or so into the novel, the android leaves the space traveler. The traveler asks her, "Don't you love me?" She replies, "Yes, I love you. But I am so sick of you I can't stand to spend another day with you." Or something like that. 

Vonnegut was onto something about our nature. That 70-80% of women who bail out on their marriages ain't some odd coincidence or aberration. The data don't lie. Women are wired differently from men, and they are more likely to be a renter in a relationship then men. The statistics bear this out. Not a comfortable truth for some of you, but the truth nonetheless. In a world where a wife can just walk away and either support herself or count on the court system to for the husband to support her, she will do it. Divorce is not a taboo. No one is judged. 

Of course we're not talking about 80% of all women. We are talking about 80% of women in marriages that end in divorce, roughly half of all marriages.


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> What is interesting to me is when their are posts about men who don't pay child support. Men who have affairs on their wives. Men who don't bother to raise their own children. (Which I welcome and think we should have more of, I love bashing *******s, it's fun). But when their are such posts I never fell compelled to come on here and advocate for men in general because of it. I just think yeah lot of men suck.


When there are threads on TAM of men talking about their wife’s affair, or her acting out of control crazy (BPD anyone?) and other bad behavior, typically about half the posters on the threads are women sticking up for the man and telling him that his wife is in the wrong.

This thread is not about a specific case. This thread is about all women who file for divorce, no matter how justified many of them might be. There are posts on this thread, cheered on by most of the men on this thread talking about their believe that women in general are not very good people.

There is a difference between individual cases and bashing and entire gender with a broad brush.



sokillme said:


> However whenever their is a story about women who suck, inevitably their will always be one or two people (because it can be men or women) who come on here and post the arbitrary "Men do it too" or "Not all women do it" or "Why do you hate all women!"


When there is a thread, like this one, that bashes and entire gender, yes, people will be offended. Note that there are not threads on TAM similar to this one bashing all men. Why? Ask the women on TAM why they don’t post such threads… mostly I think because the women know it’s just nonsense to bash an entire gender for the actions of a subset of the gender. 


sokillme said:


> I am curious why that is? It's like amazingly consistent. Like do you folks feel compelled to defend the honor of all women? Maybe men do this to and I don't realize.


No, again, it’s because the threads where you might stand up for some woman against her husband who mistreat her addresses her husband specifically. It’s not a thread like this on iwht the intent to get men to bad mouth women as a whole. Tell me, why do a good number of men on TAM feel such a need to bash most, if not all women, almost constantly in threads like this one?


sokillme said:


> Like even if a poster says something ignorant which sometimes they do, instead of saying, poster what you said was ignorant (which I am all for by the way) there will be a post about how TAM is full of chauvinists. Personally I think you could call us grumpy *******s, but I don't think it is gender based. We are more like Hockey fans as apposed to Baseball fans.


Again, we are talking about a thread that is bashing most, or all women.


sokillme said:


> Personally I think that most people of both genders (that "both" will probably get me in trouble I'm sure) have a hard time having empathy for the other. I think empathy is a hard thing for people in general, and even more so for people in the social media age. Typing and screens seem impersonal and that is like 50% of how all communication is done.
> 
> ]Anyway the truth is both sexes suck. There is probably about 40% of each who are even capable of having a decent long lasting relationship and not screwing it up. But we could all do with a little more grace for everyone, at least the ones who are trying.


That’s right, a large portion of BOTH sexes suck. So why the need for a thread that paints most, or all women badly as many of the posts on this thread do.

The original question is a valid on…. Why is it that about 70% (not 80%) of divorces are filed by women? But the posts that talk about how most, or all women, are just bad selfish, self centered, etc, etc are out of hand.


sokillme said:


> For instance @EleGirl every time I hear about how terrible your ex husbands were to you I think, you never had a chance (and that is not your fault). But I think probably 90% of all the male posters on this board would have been better husbands to you then these guys because at least they would have worked. That just makes me sad because you got stuck with what me and I am sure most of the other male posters on this board would consider the worst of what a man should be.


Yes, I got the raw end of the stick when it came to marriage. A lot of men and women do in marriage. But, if there is one thing that TAM has taught me is that somehow, I came out of some horrid situation and at least I do not bash all men for what my husbands did. I know that they and they alone own their bad behavior.


sokillme said:


> @Red Sonja if you were willing to do that for you husband and he always turned you down, I think how tragic. Their are so many posts from men who would run through walls to have a wife who was like that. It's a shame you were with a man who didn't appreciate it.


Keep in mind that men are as likely to withhold sex as women are. The difference that society generally only is supportive of men when their wives withhold sex. Women are only now starting to get their voices heard on this topic. It’s not usual at all.


----------



## EleGirl

Rick Blaine said:


> Kurt Vonnegut wrote a novel entitled "Venus on the Half Shell." In this novel and intergalactic traveler finds immortality and hooks up with a lovely android. Together they fall in love and wander the galaxy having adventures and misadventures. 10,000 years or so into the novel, the android leaves the space traveler. The traveler asks her, "Don't you love me?" She replies, "Yes, I love you. But I am so sick of you I can't stand to spend another day with you." Or something like that.
> 
> Vonnegut was onto something about our nature. That 70-80% of women who bail out on their marriages ain't some odd coincidence or aberration. The data don't lie. Women are wired differently from men, and they are more likely to be a renter in a relationship then men. The statistics bear this out. Not a comfortable truth for some of you, but the truth nonetheless. In a world where a wife can just walk away and either support herself or count on the court system to for the husband to support her, she will do it. Divorce is not a taboo. No one is judged.
> 
> Of course we're not talking about 80% of all women. We are talking about 80% of women in marriages that end in divorce, roughly half of all marriages.


Yes, of course and all women who divorce do it for frivolous reasons... we just get tired of the guys and leave. It could not possibly because they were cheating, or violent, or any other of a long list of things that break up marriages. Of course not... we all just get bored.


----------



## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> I'm trying to recall threads by women bashing on bad behavior in men, sweeping with a broad brush, and I'm having trouble remembering any?


There was ONE a few years ago, before I became a mod. I recall the thread because it was ridiculous and got very swift reactions from almost everyone. The women replying to the thread jumped down her throat, me included, and told her that she was way out of line. The thread was locked by the mods and she was banned.

I do not recall any other thread on TAM that just a bash fest of men in general. Not like this thread and the almost constant female bashing threads that we see on TAM.


----------



## EleGirl

masterclicker said:


> I cannot say that I have read this entire thread, so not sure if this has been discussed here, but I have read that there is a *growing trend for divorces among the senior segment of the population.* I believe women are overwhelmingly the initiators in that demographic as well. It was revealed that many of these older women divorcing their husbands just reached a state in their marriages where they no longer had children at home to be concerned about, no longer had any romantic feelings for their husbands, and they felt their remaining years of their lives were not going to be spent without happiness. (would like to see some follow up study on them to see if they have found happiness or ended up regretting their decision) Are there any studies on divorce trends in other age groups?


Apparently the most divorces among seniors are mostly for those who are in second (3rd, etc) marriages who have been married for less than 10 years. So, not it's not mostly women whose children have left and are not in empty nest marriages. 

The risk of divorce for adults ages 50 and older is also higher among those who have been married for a shorter time. For example, among adults 50 and older who had been married for less than 10 years, the divorce rate was 21 people per 1,000 married persons in 2015. By contrast, the divorce rate is 13 people per 1,000 married persons for adults ages 50 and older who had been married for 20 to 29 years. This is largely connected to remarriages being less stable than first marriages. In fact, most adults in this group who have been married less than 20 years were in their second or higher marriage."


Divorce rates up for Americans 50 and older, led by Baby Boomers | Pew Research Center


----------



## EleGirl

AmICrazy43 said:


> You make great points but it also validates a lot of what has been said in this thread. The system is stacked against men. Men have a lot to lose by divorcing.
> 
> In your last paragraph, you're right, there are a lot of bad women out there, just as there are bad men. I think the point is two fold: The system is against men AND people know who they married, made a commitment and when things don't go their way or their needs aren't met they divorce. These people didn't marry a stranger. They knew what they were getting into. Since women initiate at such a higher rate, they must have "settled" and thought the other person would change or their needs and expectations were raised and the man couldn't meet that criteria. I don't have the answer, only the evidence.


So you are saying that all the men on TAM who married women who cheated on them knew when they married the women that they were lying cheats but married them anyway? So if the men then filed for divorce because their wife cheated, they are just selfish men for filing for divorce when they mad a commitment to these women knowing full well what the women were like? Really?


----------



## EleGirl

AmICrazy43 said:


> I think you're still missing the point of this thread. No amount of math is going to help you with that. You can skew your numbers to make this thread into something that it isn't all you want but the FACT does not change.
> 
> 70 t0 80% of filed divorces are initiated by women. You can't dispute that.
> 
> That means that 70 to 80% of women made what they consider to be a bad decision. Take some percentage off of that to accommodate for the narcissistic and psychopathic men that got married and you are still left with a large number. Basic math...


You are apparently math challenged. Ynot is correct. Read the following post of his until it sinks in. 



Ynot said:


> I am pretty sure that if you have taken basic math you should understand as it has been explained to you before. I will quote it here for you:
> 
> "Popular culture states that about 50% of marriages end in divorce. In reality about 29% of all marriages end in divorce. That stats are also that about 70% of divorces are filed by women. So it's 70% of about 29% of marriage in which women file for divorce."
> 
> So if you use just these statistics (and make the large and unsubstantiated assumption that every single one of the men in divorces filed by women are completely 100% faultless) then the math goes as follows:
> 
> *29% of marriages X 70% filed by women = 20.3% of married men aren't worthy. Again that is making the huge, unproven and irrational assumption that every single one of those men who women filed from divorce from aren't worthy. Your argument is so flawed as to laughable. I really wish you take some time to consider reality and perhaps take a basic math class if need be.*


----------



## EleGirl

Here is some info from Physciatry Today.


"Some new data about divorce and non-marital breakups contains an unexpected finding, and I think it underscores the fact that we're in the midst of an ongoing evolution in what people want and seek in their romantic relationships. The study, based on a survey of over 2000 heterosexual couples, found that women initiated nearly 70% of all divorces. Yet there was no significant difference between the percentage of breakups initiated by women and men in non-marriage relationships.

How to explain? I find that these data are consistent with what I and others have seen clinically. When men and women seek couples therapy and then subsequently divorce; or, when either partner seeks individual therapy about a marriage conflict that ends in divorce, it’s often the woman who expresses more overt conflict and dissatisfaction about the state of the marriage. On the other hand, the man is more likely to report feeling troubled by his wife’s dissatisfaction, but pretty much “OK” with the way things are; he's content to just lope along as time passes.

In contrast, I find that younger couples – who are more likely to form non-marital but committed relationships — experience more egalitarian partnerships to begin with. When their relationship crumbles beyond repair, both experience that disintegration. Both are equally likely to address it – and part, if it can’t be healed. 

These clinical observations are consistent with what the study’s lead author, Michael Rosenfeld, suggests — that women may be more likely to initiate divorces because the married women reported lower levels of relationship quality than married men. In contrast, women and men in non-marital relationships reported equal levels of relationship quality. Rosenfeld said his results support the feminist assertion that some women experience heterosexual marriage as oppressive or uncomfortable.

He adds, “I think that marriage as an institution has been a little bit slow to catch up with expectations for gender equality. Wives still take their husbands’ surnames, and are sometimes pressured to do so. Husbands still expect their wives to do the bulk of the housework and the bulk of the childcare. On the other hand, I think that non-marital relationships lack the historical baggage and expectations of marriage, which makes the non-marital relationships more flexible and therefore more adaptable to modern expectations, including women’s expectations for more gender equality.”​
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...omen-initiate-divorce-much-more-men-heres-why


----------



## EleGirl

And here's another good article for those who want to talk about the topic and not just bash women.


Divorce rates up for Americans 50 and older, led by Baby Boomers | Pew Research Center


----------



## Andy1001

EleGirl said:


> Yes, of course and all women who divorce do it for frivolous reasons... we just get tired of the guys and leave. It could not possibly because they were cheating, or violent, or any other of a long list of things that break up marriages. Of course not... we all just get bord.


You spelt bored wrong.
Is that grounds for divorce?


----------



## EleGirl

Andy1001 said:


> You spelt bored wrong.
> Is that grounds for divorce?


English is my 3rd language. Sometimes I have problems with English spelling.

If you want to file for divorce go for it. It's a no-fault forum. Though I won't bother to respond. >


----------



## Andy1001

EleGirl said:


> English is my 3rd language. Sometimes I have problems with English spelling.
> 
> If you want to file for divorce go for it. It's a no-fault forum. Though I won't bother to respond. >


English is my first and only language and I sometimes have problems with spelling!
I just blame the iPhone or iPad.


----------



## 269370

Andy1001 said:


> English is my first and only language and I sometimes have problems with spelling!
> 
> I just blame the iPhone or iPad.



Why are there no threads bashing iPhone and iPads?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cooper

inmyprime said:


> Why are there no threads bashing iPhone and iPads?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is a very good question, and I think a valid topic for discussion sense many people have more of a relationship with their devices than their significant other!


----------



## 269370

Cooper said:


> That is a very good question, and I think a valid topic for discussion sense many people have more of a relationship with their devices than their significant other!


My iphone has been acting all cold and distant and is withholding sex from me. Not cool at all.


----------



## Andy1001

inmyprime said:


> My iphone has been acting all cold and distant and is withholding sex from me. Not cool at all.


Serves you right.Were you searching for the Samsung galaxy S8 on your iPhone?
iPhones have feelings too you know.


----------



## ConanHub

sokillme said:


> Lets start one if only so we have one to reference. :grin2:


You so bad! LOL!>


----------



## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> There was ONE a few years ago, before I became a mod. I recall the thread because it was ridiculous and got very swift reactions from almost everyone. The women replying to the thread jumped down her throat, me included, and told her that she was way out of line. The thread was locked by the mods and she was banned.
> 
> I do not recall any other thread on TAM that just a bash fest of men in general. Not like this thread and the almost constant female bashing threads that we see on TAM.


Interesting dynamic but I'm probably too lazy to explore the reasons.


----------



## Ynot

I think many of the objections of the He-Man Woman Haters Club has been addressed, but I would just like to add, that they seem equally confused about someone being offended by their short sightedness and someone being amused at it. FTR, since many of them appear to be extremely dense and unable to comprehend even simple math, I was and remain amused by their binary thinking of "men good, women bad, therefore MGTOW"


----------



## AmICrazy43

Ynot said:


> I think many of the objections of the He-Man Woman Haters Club has been addressed, but I would just like to add, that they seem equally confused about someone being offended by their short sightedness and someone being amused at it. FTR, since many of them appear to be extremely dense and unable to comprehend even simple math, I was and remain amused by their binary thinking of "men good, women bad, therefore MGTOW"


Unbelievable, seriously, just unbelievable. All you and a couple of other posters are doing is insulting people. You and a couple of other posters are changing the argument and cherry picking pieces of certain posts to suit your new argument because you don't like what the other posters are saying. Instead of listening to them and talking to them you move the bar.

You keep talking about basic math. I and another poster didn't understand where you were going with that at first but then we understood that you were not talking about divorces but all marriages. Your point wasn't even about women initiating marriages but was about x % of bad people. 

I love how "you can't read" has come up as well. It's ironic when a post gets cherry picked and follow up posts or previous posts are ignored. It's also ironic when someone goes off topic and then says that other posters can't read.

Honestly, this seems typical. The men have brought up an issue and then the women swoop in, change the argument to something completely different, bring in reasons that are not applicable to the thread, hurl insults and then they wonder why men want nothing to do with them. You are getting your wish ladies, more and more men want nothing to do with you or your circular arguments.


----------



## Ynot

AmICrazy43 said:


> Unbelievable, seriously, just unbelievable. All you and a couple of other posters are doing is insulting people. You and a couple of other posters are changing the argument and cherry picking pieces of certain posts to suit your new argument because you don't like what the other posters are saying. Instead of listening to them and talking to them you move the bar.
> If you feel insulted it is only because you refuse to understand what is being expressed to you. The "cherry picking" you refer to has been to point out the flaws in your assumptions, ie 80% of men are not worthy of marriage because 80% of divorces are filed by women"
> You keep talking about basic math. I and another poster didn't understand where you were going with that at first but then we understood that you were not talking about divorces but all marriages. Your point wasn't even about women initiating marriages but was about x % of bad people.
> As I have pointed out in many posts, I have addresses the issues of why women are more likely to file ad nauseum earlier in this thread, but then you and your cohort entered with your flawed thinking based on your lack of understanding or inability to communicate properly
> I love how "you can't read" has come up as well. It's ironic when a post gets cherry picked and follow up posts or previous posts are ignored. It's also ironic when someone goes off topic and then says that other posters can't read.
> That is because that is exactly what has been done. I use simple math, someone wants to argue about the numbers used, so I used the number they wanted. They still wanted to argue about something else like the source of those number. So his numbers were assumed to be correct when he used them, but when I used them they were wrong or required sourcing. The same poster quoted half a statement as "evidence" of my bias. So yeah, cherry picking took place, except it wasn't by those who responded to you
> Honestly, this seems typical. The men have brought up an issue and then the women swoop in, change the argument to something completely different, bring in reasons that are not applicable to the thread, hurl insults and then they wonder why men want nothing to do with them. You are getting your wish ladies, more and more men want nothing to do with you or your circular arguments.


And here again, we see an example of your flawed thinking "this seems typical". The only thing that has been typical in this whole thread has been your assumptions of "men good/women bad", despite numerous attempts to communicate to you that there are bad players on both sides, there is blame on both sides, the only thing you want is validation that men (and by extension, you) are blameless and that women just make bad decisions and therefore it is all their fault.
Please, for your own sake, take sometime to consider that divorces are not filed simply because women made a bad mistake. There are specific reasons, which have been explained in detail throughout this thread. You are only setting yourself up for more hurt, perhaps of a different kind than you have already experienced, by holding this attitude that you have.


----------



## AmICrazy43

Ynot said:


> And here again, we see an example of your flawed thinking "this seems typical". The only thing that has been typical in this whole thread has been your assumptions of "men good/women bad", despite numerous attempts to communicate to you that there are bad players on both sides, there is blame on both sides, the only thing you want is validation that men (and by extension, you) are blameless and that women just make bad decisions and therefore it is all their fault.
> Please, for your own sake, take sometime to consider that divorces are not filed simply because women made a bad mistake. There are specific reasons, which have been explained in detail throughout this thread. You are only setting yourself up for more hurt, perhaps of a different kind than you have already experienced, by holding this attitude that you have.


I'm sorry, but all you are doing is twisting stuff around. I'm not going to go over it again. Even in one of your paragraph replies to my paragraph you got it wrong and twisted things. IT'S RIGHT THERE FOR YOU TO READ!! RIGHT THERE!

Anyway, I'm done. I'm going to enjoy the day.


----------



## Blondilocks

You fellas who are trying to pin every divorce on the fact that women make bad decisions on their choices of mate so you'll have an excuse to not have a serious relationship, again, need to realize that you don't need an excuse. Seriously! 

You're not children. If you don't like broccoli - you don't have to eat it. You don't need to conjure up some questionable statistic to justify your dislike of broccoli - just don't buy it and don't eat it. The world will continue to rotate and you and the females in your orbit will be much happier.


----------



## VibrantWings

Betrayedone said:


> This thread is lame.......on both sides.......One thing is has brought to light for me is I certainly don't want a radical feminist in my life.......


Good choice. I doubt they would want you around either. 



AmICrazy43 said:


> Very wise. Apparently, if you don't cook and clean the dishes you will be served divorce papers!!


Apparently if you act like a spoiled teenager who wants a mother to pick up after him, perhaps you shouldn't have gotten married to being with. *shrugs*

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that some people do other people big favors to marry them. My bad....


----------



## StillSearching

Prodigal said:


> Uh, yeah, okay. So women should work low or menial paying jobs. If they do the same work as a man, *they shouldn't get "fair" pay*. And what is wrong with a woman wanting a teammate and friend who will listen? Perhaps you should read about John Adams. His wife, Abigail, was his touchstone. Reading their correspondence is an eye opener. And guess what? It happened in the 18th century - go figure!
> 
> Maybe just keeping women barefoot, pregnant, and uneducated will keep them from seeking divorce. And, from a woman and feminist to boot, let us hope we have evolved past your mindset. Seriously.


Fair pay is what you are worth. Period.
If you are talking about equality of outcome. That is never a good idea. History shows that is only available in socialism or communism. You want that? Innocent people die by the millions.


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## turnera

My DD27 is an overachiever. She told me the other day that she and her fiance talked about the future and, since he doesn't like his job and she loves hers (research), and because she knows she would never be happy staying at home, he's going to be the SAHD. We'll see what happens.


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## Rowan

My husband didn't file for divorce because he's both lazy and selfish. He liked being married. He enjoyed being the respectable family man. He liked having a wife who was successful and active in the community. He liked having someone to manage all the stuff that makes up real life - housework, childcare, entertaining, family and social obligations - and a second income. He liked having an enthusiastic and active sex life. He would, and did, proclaim himself happily married. 

He also liked shagging other women on the regular. Why give up all the perks of a marriage and have to do all that work for yourself, when you can stay married and have as much strange on the side as you'd like? It was the best of both worlds. Why would he ever voluntarily give that up?

I filed as soon as I found out about the serial cheating. He would never have filed. Why would he, when there was so much cake for the eating?


----------



## Rowan

turnera said:


> My DD27 is an overachiever. She told me the other day that she and her fiance talked about the future and, since he doesn't like his job and she loves hers (research), and because she knows she would never be happy staying at home, he's going to be the SAHD. We'll see what happens.



That can be a very difficult dynamic to navigate happily for both partners in the long-term. I wish them luck with it.


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## EllisRedding

Rowan said:


> That can be a very difficult dynamic to navigate happily for both partners in the long-term. I wish them luck with it.


Do you think it will be a difficult dynamic where one partner is a SAH (regardless of who), or in this case where the guy specifically agreed to be the SAHD? I only know 1 SAHD, and since that has typically not been the norm, it is hard to gauge how well it has worked vs the more traditional SAHM.


----------



## Prodigal

StillSearching said:


> Fair pay is what you are worth. Period.
> If you are talking about equality of outcome. That is never a good idea. History shows that is only available in socialism or communism. You want that? Innocent people die by the millions.


What the hell are you talking about????

This is a discussion about the percentage of women who file for divorce, according to the OP. NOT the death of millions. Get a grip, okay? And that Ignore feature is your friend. Use it.


----------



## Rowan

EllisRedding said:


> Do you think it will be a difficult dynamic where one partner is a SAH (regardless of who), or in this case where the guy specifically agreed to be the SAHD? I only know 1 SAHD, and since that has typically not been the norm, it is hard to gauge how well it has worked vs the more traditional SAHM.


I think it may be somewhat easier in the case of a SAHW/M. I think society as a whole is less welcoming and accommodating of the SAHH/D dynamic. So that, I think, is more prone to external pressures than the more traditional wife-at-home format. 

Honestly, though, I think either partner staying home can be fraught with issues. There's a very strong tendency, in my experience, for the partner who works outside the home to underestimate and devalue the contributions of the stay-at-home partner. That can, and often does, lead to a loss of respect for that partner which can cause building resentment on both sides. There's a power imbalance that's very tough for many people to deal with in healthy ways. It's easy to fall into patterns that are relationship killers. 

I think having one parent stay at home can be workable, but only if both partners are not just willing, but actually _enthusiastic_ about it. And then, only if they're informed and aware of the realities of that lifestyle choice for both partners and for their relationship.

Me? I would never be a SAHM. From the brief stints I was at home during pregnancy and with an ill newborn, I found it isolating and depressing and know I'm not cut out for it full-time. I also would never again work from home, unless my partner did as well.


----------



## EllisRedding

Rowan said:


> I think it may be somewhat easier in the case of a SAHW/M. I think society as a whole is less welcoming and accommodating of the SAHH/D dynamic. So that, I think, is more prone to external pressures than the more traditional wife-at-home format.
> 
> Honestly, though, I think either partner staying home can be fraught with issues. There's a very strong tendency, in my experience, for the partner who works outside the home to underestimate and devalue the contributions of the stay-at-home partner. That can, and often does, lead to a loss of respect for that partner which can cause building resentment on both sides. There's a power imbalance that's very tough for many people to deal with in healthy ways. It's easy to fall into patterns that are relationship killers.
> 
> I think having one parent stay at home can be workable, but only if both partners are not just willing, but actually _enthusiastic_ about it. And then, only if they're informed and aware of the realities of that lifestyle choice for both partners and for their relationship.
> 
> Me? I would never be a SAHM. From the brief stints I was at home during pregnancy and with an ill newborn, I found it isolating and depressing and know I'm not cut out for it full-time. I also would never again work from home, unless my partner did as well.


I would say fortunately in my case we have had success in the SAHM arena, but do agree that there could be a slew of issues (in the same regard though, issues could present themselves on the other side with both parents working when it is not needed). 

I am interested in the SAHD scenario (not for me lol), not necessarily how society views it, but how the W ultimately views it. Does it sound good on paper but in practice does it cause other issues (loss of attraction, etc...). In general, there is a lot to talk about before one of the parents decides to become a SAH, but is it a bigger risk to a relationship if the SAH is a male? 

FYI - don't mean to sidetrack this thread.


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## TooNice

In my situation, I knew my marriage was not great. But I didn't think it was over. When he told me he wanted a divorce, I refused to be the one to file. When I learned that our marriage had been a joke for at least the last 7 years of it, I continued to insist that he file. He had kept me in the marriage to feed his narcissism and so we could still be the perfect little family in the eyes of everyone around us. 

It was a small thing in the grand scheme of things, but I wanted the onus to be on him. Even if no one else really knows or cares who took the paperwork to the courthouse, I know. And I would do it that way again in a heartbeat.


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## TooNice

dalv said:


> fear


?


----------



## Camper292000

EllisRedding said:


> I would say fortunately in my case we have had success in the SAHM arena, but do agree that there could be a slew of issues (in the same regard though, issues could present themselves on the other side with both parents working when it is not needed).
> 
> I am interested in the SAHD scenario (not for me lol), not necessarily how society views it, but how the W ultimately views it. Does it sound good on paper but in practice does it cause other issues (loss of attraction, etc...). In general, there is a lot to talk about before one of the parents decides to become a SAH, but is it a bigger risk to a relationship if the SAH is a male?
> 
> FYI - don't mean to sidetrack this thread.


For us it wasn't necessarily a decision just how life and job loss in starting a new business from home worked out. I was a stay-at-home dad the last 3-4 years of the marriage and I understood I was giving up a roll but I also had... confidence that it wasn't worthy roll. We had three young daughters. Very quickly became a power imbalance. I wasn't allowed to have a debit card during that time and couldn't handle the criticism after grocery shopping or some decisions I made. I think she lost a lot of respect for me but I also think that happened before that.

I loved it and it was the best time being with the kids and doing all this little things but as far as the marriage goes it was hell. And it was not fun at all going to school events where there's 20 or 30 mom and you feel like the odd one out. Of course they want to know she was bad-mouthing me behind my back.

We're divorced now and either the courts are that biosource a female or her lawyer was such a good liar. Everything's going her way from a fabricated schedule to supposedly friends and church members lying in affidavits. It went badly for me what all I needed was a few months to temporary support to get on my feet.

Yes I asked for the divorce and she said no she did not want one. Then she turned around and had me served. It was a very bad time but now that things are settling out at least I don't have to live with the fact. She does. (and blames me).


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

username77 said:


> Women do a lot better in divorce, they're awarded custody 90% of the time. Whoever is awarded custody typically gets the marital home, and receives support (alimony and/or child support) from the other spouse. If women got shafted like men they wouldn't be so quick to file. It's really simple to figure out, it's a a result of the biased courts against men.
> 
> If a woman was looking at losing her kids, home, incurring massive debt, living in a 1 bedroom dump rental, and handing her ex half her pay for the next 18 years, she would think long and hard before filing.


Most divorced couples are getting 50/50 custody nowadays. If the woman is being given "90%" custody, it's because the father doesn't have the means to parent his kids 3.5 days out of the week, or he doesn't WANT to parent them half the week. Or, he's been proven to be an unfit parent, or, he simply doesn't feel he'd be able to do as good as job as the mother. When my ex-husband and I divorced 25 years ago, he said to me right out, "I'm not looking for shared custody. You take much better care of our son than I ever could, so I think it's best he be with you as the primary parent, I pay you child support every month, and I see him on the schedule we worked out earlier." And it worked fabulously for us until my son left for college.

Secondly, there are a lot of women working now, and some of them make as much if not MORE than their husbands, so this assumption that a man is going to be bled dry while his wife lives it up in the marital home, charging up a storm at Bloomingdale's and spending the rest of her day eating bon bons is ludicrous. Generally, it's STILL the woman who sacrifices her career to stay home with the kids when a couple decides one parent will stay home to raise them. So while the husband continues building his career - and worth - in the market and advances forward over the years, the stay at home parent is losing ground in the job market every day and eventually becomes pretty much unmarketable. In those cases, TEMPORARY alimony is justified and often ordered while the stay at home parent scrambles to find a way to suddenly become financially independent in a market that likely no longer wants them. It happens ALL the time.

The OP isn't even stating correct stats. Women initiate divorce approximately 68-70% of the time, not 80. But as I've seen over the course of my lifetime and read for more years than I can count, most men simply don't have the gonads to do it themselves. They'll stay in a miserable marriage and STILL fight to stay in it when the topic of divorce comes up. I think a big part of it is inertia, because they don't welcome the change that would come with it. They have no desire and no idea how to be on their own and have to fend for themselves without someone else to do it for them. In most households, the wives do the overwhelming majority of the work - cleaning, cooking, laundry, appointment setting, child-rearing, bill paying, keeping everyone's life running on schedule. Sorry, but that's just the way it really is. And a good lot of these 'miserable' husbands are more than happy to lay on their asses and let their wives run the show - while *****ing about how miserable they are, of course.

The difference here is, women have the guts to get up and make a divorce happen when they're done with a crappy marriage. But a lot of men lack the gonads to do it and THAT'S why more women initiate divorce. It ain't rocket science. For some men, "it's cheaper to keep her." For others, they simply don't want to be on their own and need a mommy to cater to them so a divorce is out of the question. For some, divorce is testament of failure in their eyes and they don't want to be seen as a failure. And for some, change of any kind frightens them.

It's also been statistically proven that a woman's standard of living goes *DOWN *in the event of a divorce, while a man's goes up. 

So if women are initiating divorce 68-70% of the time, it's likely because they're the ones used to making the effort to get things done, and this is yet just another example of them doing that.



Rowan said:


> My husband didn't file for divorce because he's both lazy and selfish. He liked being married. He enjoyed being the respectable family man. He liked having a wife who was successful and active in the community. He liked having someone to manage all the stuff that makes up real life - housework, childcare, entertaining, family and social obligations - and a second income. He liked having an enthusiastic and active sex life. He would, and did, proclaim himself happily married.


LOL!! This is *exactly* the point I was making above. I read this post by Rowan AFTER I posted the above.


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## personofinterest

> My husband didn't file for divorce because he's both lazy and selfish. He liked being married. He enjoyed being the respectable family man. He liked having a wife who was successful and active in the community. He liked having someone to manage all the stuff that makes up real life


Yep. My ex was fine with a passive, sexless, dead, invisible marriage. He had dinner every night, clean laundry, and had the marriage box checked. He NEVER would have filed for D.

I mean, women make the vast majority of their children's doctor's appointments too. Does that mean they are the ones making the kids sick?

I admittedly didn't read the whole thread because I forgot my BP meds today and don't want to have a stroke. And I'm not even a feminist lol


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## Talker67

arbitrator said:


> *Yeah! She sure as hell never rubbed sticks to start a fire, unless it was some other man's stick!*


 That WOULD BE playing with fire


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## Talker67

i can not help but wonder how many of those 80% women, once divorced, have buyer's remorse and find that single parenting is a hell of a lot harder to do than they thought it would be. Sometime minor slights or transgressions get blown way out of proportion. Couple that with media article after media article urging women to divorce....and it seems like a lot of women may be making hasty decisions.


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## Jeffyboy

I think part of the answer is that there's no social stigma to getting divorced nowadays. There are no checks and balances anymore.


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## musicftw07

Talker67 said:


> i can not help but wonder how many of those 80% women, once divorced, have buyer's remorse and find that single parenting is a hell of a lot harder to do than they thought it would be. Sometime minor slights or transgressions get blown way out of proportion. Couple that with media article after media article urging women to divorce....and it seems like a lot of women may be making hasty decisions.


My XWW has hinted at some buyer's remorse. About a year ago she admitted she wasn't a very good partner, but said she was glad we had a child together. I NOPEd the hell out of that conversation. More recently she bought a house with her latest Beau two blocks away from my house. I told her that was creepy. Sure said I need to get over my hatred of her. I said I didn't hate her, it's that I didn't trust her. She has been trying to be "more trustworthy" lately. Lol This after more than six years of being split.

Funny thing is, I was going to file first. I had almost all the paperwork filled out and was trying to include her in the process. She dragged her heels so she could file first. (If I had known about TAM back then, I would have just filled and been done with it.) Didn't bother me, that saved me the $300 filing fee.

She also seems to have an obsession with my girlfriend. My GF is stalked online by a lot of different alias profiles on various platforms. None of this happened until after my XWW met my GF. It's sad, really. I flat out told my XWW that all I desired was her absence. I don't think it's sunk in yet.

I'm very wary of marriage. I'm not saying I wouldn't do it, but if I do then I'd do it very carefully. The fact that women file the vast majority of divorces is not lost on me, and it's something to consider when making a decision.

What gets me is when women get angry that it can be a deterrent. Actions have consequences.


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## personofinterest

Talker67 said:


> i can not help but wonder how many of those 80% women, once divorced, have buyer's remorse and find that single parenting is a hell of a lot harder to do than they thought it would be. Sometime minor slights or transgressions get blown way out of proportion. Couple that with media article after media article urging women to divorce....and it seems like a lot of women may be making hasty decisions.


It took me years to make my decision, and even then it was a hard one to make. And years without sex coupled with neglect and no security were definitely not blown out of proportion. However, I knew that when I pulled the trigger, I would be seen as "the one who ended the marriage," even though he had been ending it with slow death for over a decade. There are definitely terrible women out there, but a man would do well not to assume that if she pulled the trigger, she must have been the lazy one.


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## Apexmale

"Most divorced couples are getting 50/50 custody nowadays. If the woman is being given "90%" custody, it's because the father doesn't have the means to parent his kids 3.5 days out of the week, or he doesn't WANT to parent them half the week. Or, he's been proven to be an unfit parent, or, he simply doesn't feel he'd be able to do as good as job as the mother. "

I hadnt seen such misinformation posted within this forum in a long time. That is a broad generalization for just having had the expwrience of one marriage.

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## She'sStillGotIt

Apexmale said:


> "Most divorced couples are getting 50/50 custody nowadays. If the woman is being given "90%" custody, it's because the father doesn't have the means to parent his kids 3.5 days out of the week, or he doesn't WANT to parent them half the week. Or, he's been proven to be an unfit parent, or, he simply doesn't feel he'd be able to do as good as job as the mother. "
> 
> I hadnt seen such misinformation posted within this forum in a long time. That is a broad generalization for just having had the expwrience of one marriage.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


First of all, you have no idea how many times I've been married.

Secondly, it's NOT 'misinformation' - it's very common to now get 50/50 custody in today's world. I stand by my post. As stated, the only reason(s) a man wouldn't be considered for 50/50 custody is if he doesn't want it due to work/distance restrictions, if he doesn't want it because he's not equipped to care for his kids on a 50/50 basis, or if for some reason, he's deemed unfit to father them 50% of the time. I'm not talking about acrimonious divorces in 'at fault' states where a spouse can really do some damage to the other with enough money for a shark of a lawyer and enough desire to eviscerate her husband. I'm talking about the general population living in no-fault states. 

And for the record, some states have even passed laws to make shared custody (50/50) the *default*.

You should probably do a little reading and research before foolishly calling people out. Just sayin'.


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## Apexmale

She'sStillGotIt said:


> First of all, you have no idea how many times I've been married.
> 
> Secondly, it's NOT 'misinformation' - it's very common to now get 50/50 custody in today's world. I stand by my post. As stated, the only reason(s) a man wouldn't be considered for 50/50 custody is if he doesn't want it due to work/distance restrictions, if he doesn't want it because he's not equipped to care for his kids on a 50/50 basis, or if for some reason, he's deemed unfit to father them 50% of the time. I'm not talking about acrimonious divorces in 'at fault' states where a spouse can really do some damage to the other with enough money for a shark of a lawyer and enough desire to eviscerate her husband. I'm talking about the general population living in no-fault states.
> 
> And for the record, some states have even passed laws to make shared custody (50/50) the *default*.
> 
> You should probably do a little reading and research before foolishly calling people out. Just sayin'.


There are ZERO states that rule fathers as the custodial parent over ruling the mother the custodial parent. There are ZERO states that rule 50/50 equal and shared parenting over the mother as the custodial parent. 

Additionally, I'm an editor for both the Americans for Equal and Shared Parenting as well as an editor for The Fathers' Rights Movement which represents over half a million members collectively. Statistics is precisely my area. 

We pull court dockets from states and every county, to every judge to compile their performance data and NONE, issue more fathers or shared custody more than they do to giving mothers custodial status. Its done so that there is a winner and a loser in court and to create continued litigation among parties. Its also done due the archaic laws than were designes to give women Social Security welfare. Judges and lawyers get paid by continuing litigation in the same way doctors dont want a healthy society, there is no money in it.

Secondly, shared parenting isnt awarded because states get paid by the federal government to create and collect child support. Fatherlessness in America isnt the result of fathers walking out of the lives of their children or not wanting to parents, its the result of family courts resorting to a standard possession order to creat Social Security incentive pay to the states. Your husband might be the exception, he might have had good reason to split on everyone but your generalization is skewed.

Please read a book before talking about fathers.

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## Apexmale

She'sStillGotIt said:


> First of all, you have no idea how many times I've been married.
> 
> Secondly, it's NOT 'misinformation' - it's very common to now get 50/50 custody in today's world. I stand by my post. As stated, the only reason(s) a man wouldn't be considered for 50/50 custody is if he doesn't want it due to work/distance restrictions, if he doesn't want it because he's not equipped to care for his kids on a 50/50 basis, or if for some reason, he's deemed unfit to father them 50% of the time. I'm not talking about acrimonious divorces in 'at fault' states where a spouse can really do some damage to the other with enough money for a shark of a lawyer and enough desire to eviscerate her husband. I'm talking about the general population living in no-fault states.
> 
> And for the record, some states have even passed laws to make shared custody (50/50) the *default*.
> 
> You should probably do a little reading and research before foolishly calling people out. Just sayin'.


Also, ZERO states have passed 50/50 equal and shared parenting. Z. E. R. O.

Please don't lie to the TAM membership. Thanks.

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## Ynot

Apexmale said:


> Also, ZERO states have passed 50/50 equal and shared parenting. Z. E. R. O.
> 
> Please don't lie to the TAM membership. Thanks.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I have a friend who similarly collects data locally and his statistics are right in line with your own. In the vast majority of cases the wife is given custody of the children and awarded child support even in cases where the wife makes more than the husband.
As I said earlier, it would be interesting to see if we see an increase in the number of men filing for divorces once these archaic laws are revisited.
As it stands now, a woman (while anyone can, the facts show it is 70 to 80% of women who do)can divorce with no cause, then be awarded custody and support. In some cases it behooves them to file. Few men are willing or able to take that kind of hit. In many ways current support and custody rules serve the same purpose as those "for cause" divorce requirements of the past. Only this time it is the men who are forced to remain married out of fear of loosing everything.


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## Apexmale

Ynot said:


> I have a friend who similarly collects data locally and his statistics are right in line with your own. In the vast majority of cases the wife is given custody of the children and awarded child support even in cases where the wife makes more than the husband.
> As I said earlier, it would be interesting to see if we see an increase in the number of men filing for divorces once these archaic laws are revisited.
> As it stands now, a woman (while anyone can, the facts show it is 70 to 80% of women who do)can divorce with no cause, then be awarded custody and support. In some cases it behooves them to file. Few men are willing or able to take that kind of hit. In many ways current support and custody rules serve the same purpose as those "for cause" divorce requirements of the past. Only this time it is the men who are forced to remain married out of fear of loosing everything.


Child support isn't in the child's best interest, it's in the states best interest.

In Texas, the state collects $10-$12 dollars from the federal government for every dollar collected in child support. BIG incentive to continue following the Social Security Welfare laws and leave them untouched for decades. Everytime a Congressman tries repealing Social Security Title IV-D, women's groups and family law attorneys pump MILLIONS in opposing campaign lobbying efforts.

50/50 legislation is difficult to pass because it threatens to disrupt the obvious financial benefits it provides. They forgot long ago, family law should have remained in favor of children. The government would rather maintain it's Social Security welfare program than to support 50/50 parenting which requires responsibility from both fit parents to their children. 

The biggest opponents to 50/50 shared parenting are family law attorneys and womens group. Why do you suppose?

The states profits would nosedive with 50/50 shared parenting and so would the family law attorney industry. Both would lose tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars. 

The issue is getting bigger as the number of actual marriages plummets, divorces skyrocket, and more and more children are born out of wedlock or pass through family court during divorce or seperation. Whether family law attorneys or womens groups like it or not, 50/50 shared parenting legislation is coming and some of it's biggest leadership supporters are mothers.

It's whats best for children.









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## Ynot

Most people totally underestimate the size of the family law industry in this country. When my ex decided to leave, she suggested a dissolution. She had a friend who gave her the name of an attorney. He wanted $5000 plus filing fees to file an already agreed upon dissolution of marriage (we had no children to argue about, no child support, she did not ask for spousal support and the few assets we had, we had already agreed on how to divvy them up). I looked it up, we could have filed ourselves for only the filing fees with no attorneys involved. She wanted an attorney involved so I found a local one who charged us $1500 including filing fees. It is a racket and one few people actually are aware of.


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## Red Sonja

Apexmale said:


> Also, ZERO states have passed 50/50 equal and shared parenting. Z. E. R. O.
> 
> Please don't lie to the TAM membership. Thanks.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


ShesStillGotIt and you are talking about different things. You are speaking of laws, she is speaking of custody settlements that happen IRL.

She is not a liar. I live in CA and most spouses have 50/50 arrangements unless the child is an infant, in that case it becomes 50/50 once the child reaches a certain age.

I don't understand how a mandatory 50/50 law would be wise or fair to children because there are cases where one spouse or the other is not fit to parent for various reasons.


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## Apexmale

Red Sonja said:


> ShesStillGotIt and you are talking about different things. You are speaking of laws, she is speaking of custody settlements that happen IRL.
> 
> She is not a liar. I live in CA and most spouses have 50/50 arrangements unless the child is an infant, in that case it becomes 50/50 once the child reaches a certain age.
> 
> I don't understand how a mandatory 50/50 law would be wise or fair to children because there are cases where one spouse or the other is not fit to parent for various reasons.


We arent talking about mandatory 50/50 shared parenting. We are talking about walking into family court with equality and the presumption of being a fit parent. 50/50 shared parenting serves best with only fit parents. And why would a particular parent have parenting protection to a child based on gender alone? 

Zero states have legislation that guarantees shared parenting. Zero states grant custody more often to fathers than to mothers. The information I'm seeing put out (presumably by two mothers) is that somehow decades of statistics proving custody disparity and gender discrimination in court somehow loses their validity when two individual mothers claim 50/50 is the new norm.

Fatherless homes are destructive to children and do not work. Opponents of family law reform come out to do exactly what you are doing... arguing against reality and facts.

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## Red Sonja

Sigh ... I am not arguing facts of law rather I am stating the real life custody outcomes in my state that I have observed over the last 10 years or so.

Or, if you have the time, you can read on TAM and find that most divorced people here have 50/50 custody of their children.



Apexmale said:


> We arent talking about mandatory 50/50 shared parenting. We are talking about walking into family court with equality and the presumption of being a fit parent. 50/50 shared parenting serves best with only fit parents. And why would a particular parent have parenting protection to a child based on gender alone?
> 
> Zero states have legislation that guarantees shared parenting. Zero states grant custody more often to fathers than to mothers. The information I'm seeing put out (presumably by two mothers) is that somehow decades of statistics proving custody disparity and gender discrimination in court somehow loses their validity when two individual mothers claim 50/50 is the new norm.
> 
> Fatherless homes are destructive to children and do not work. Opponents of family law reform come out to do exactly what you are doing... arguing against reality and facts.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## johnnywalker

Who knows...


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## turnera

You should really listen to this:
'Incels': The Movement Behind The Toronto Attack | NPR Illinois


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## EleGirl

Ynot said:


> Most people totally underestimate the size of the family law industry in this country. When my ex decided to leave, she suggested a dissolution. She had a friend who gave her the name of an attorney. He wanted $5000 plus filing fees to file an already agreed upon dissolution of marriage (we had no children to argue about, no child support, she did not ask for spousal support and the few assets we had, we had already agreed on how to divvy them up). I looked it up, we could have filed ourselves for only the filing fees with no attorneys involved. She wanted an attorney involved so I found a local one who charged us $1500 including filing fees. It is a racket and one few people actually are aware of.


My divorce in 2012 cost me $135 filing fee. We agreed on everything. The kids were out of high school and we had no children together. I did the paperwork. The judge signed it within 7 days of filing.


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## LuvMyLady

username77 said:


> Women do a lot better in divorce, they're awarded custody 90% of the time. Whoever is awarded custody typically gets the marital home, and receives support (alimony and/or child support) from the other spouse. If women got shafted like men they wouldn't be so quick to file. It's really simple to figure out, it's a a result of the biased courts against men.
> 
> If a woman was looking at* losing her kids, home, incurring massive debt, living in a 1 bedroom dump rental, and handing her ex half her pay for the next 18 years*, she would think long and hard before filing.


Bingo!
The reason men stick it out is because they have FAR more to lose. And I would be willing to bet 80% of the "80%" were not being physically abused by their husbands either. Whose fault is it? It's the stupid society we live in. Government, the Media, even churches inadvertently are set up to destroy the home. Instead of bringing husband and wife together, it only divides.


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## NobodySpecial

LuvMyLady said:


> Bingo!
> The reason men stick it out is because they have FAR more to lose. And I would be willing to bet 80% of the "80%" were not being physically abused by their husbands either. Whose fault is it? It's the stupid society we live in. Government, the Media, even churches inadvertently are set up to destroy the home. Instead of bringing husband and wife together, it only divides.


Cuz THAT is what we need. A government, media and churches that hold the bar as low as not being physically abused. I wish I could sign up to go back THERE. Not.


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