# Who's right??



## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

We are now in couseling because my H had a secret 18 month relationship with a person that is close to our daughter's age. He is extremely remorseful and has vowed to do anything that I need, except for one thing. He will NOT admit that this was indeed an emotional affair.

He will not bend . He says this was an innappropriate relationship because he hid it. He admits what he did was very very wrong hence the reason for his confession. He says as far as he is concerned an emotional affair MUST have some romance implied or in some form and that he is therefore NOT GUILTY. He says because there was no physical contact, not even a hug and no desire to do so, he did not cheat.

I NEED for him to admit this. I really need him to admit this because since I have been told, I am suffering from depression and serious emotional turmoil. If he is right, where does that leave me? Our marriage before this was very good and mostly problem free and most certainly did not have any trust issues.

What do you think? BTW, my counselor agrees with him.

Story for those who are interested....

My husband confessed to an inappropriate relationship with a person almost our older daughter's age. I've already told my story here. He says because we chose abortion almost 30 years ago, when this person came up to him and asked him advice about her boyfriend, he felt guilty for our deed (she is the age our child would have been), realized she was a stripper, felt sorry for her and helped her get out of this lifestyle.

I have some text records, all bank statements etc and so far things have checked out that there was no PA. She lives 3 states away, he ended there by himself because he has relatives and also his ill mother who recently passed away. They have seen each other 3 or 4 times during his 18 month relationship but were in contact via text and some phone conversations. He also sent her money twice for some type of medical certification program.

He confessed 8 months ago and our lives have turned upside. He is thoroughly shocked that divorce is a real possibility. So we are trying to save this marriage though I am unsure if I can get past this.


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## Just Joe (May 26, 2014)

Did you talk to the stripper?


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

So what did they converse about, the weather? Or maybe her job? I'm, sure her being a stripper had absolutely nothing to do with anything. 

That being said, i guess it depends on your what your definition of an "EA" is. I never really thought about it until my wife had one. Sounds to me though like he's going with the "you can't prove it, so i ain't confessing" strategy. Serve him and see what happens.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

He CAN or NOT call it anything he wants---what he was doing was having an EA---this girl---CERTAINLY is not a friend of the family/friend of the mge----so to have a heavy 1 1/2 yr go around with a single younger woman---IS AN EA

By the way---I WOULD DUMP YOUR COUNSELOR---THAT PERSON IS A BIGGER IDIOT THAN YOUR H----how did that counselor get a license----maybe he/she bought it at the grocery store

I do not know what you want out of all of this---but your H DID INDEED HAVE AN A---and any accountability/consequences/boundaries set in place MUST BE BASED ON HIM HAVING HAD AN A

No matter what do not let him wiggle out of this---if he slides out with no consequences/boundaries/accountability---he WILL KNOW HE GOT AWAY WITH HIS A THIS TIME, AND HE WILL CHEAT AGAIN


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

did he...ah...see her 'work'.

she probably told that sob story to every sucker that she met, and had money coming in from a bunch of old guys looking to be friends with a hot stripper.

so is a chump and his con artist an EA?


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

Tell him when you leave him it may or may not be a divorce.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

ReidWright said:


> did he...ah...see her 'work'.
> 
> she probably told that sob story to every sucker that she met, and had money coming in from a bunch of old guys looking to be friends with a hot stripper.
> 
> so is a chump and his con artist an EA?


He really did help her get her certification as medical assistant. She started the program years ago, before she my my husband and was not able to complete due to her personal problems. I not only spoke with he but I had things checked out. She has offered to meet with me but I am still debating whether I should meet with her. She claims my husband saved her life.

So basically these things have been verified, but I still believe it was an EA.


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

My ex was the same way, if they didn't have sex then it wasn't an affair. If it wasn't, then why did you work so hard to hide it?


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

ReidWright said:


> did he...ah...see her 'work'.
> 
> she probably told that sob story to every sucker that she met, and had money coming in from a bunch of old guys looking to be friends with a hot stripper.
> 
> so is a chump and his con artist an EA?


No, he has never seen her work. They met around 2pm one weekend at a sports bar when he was on a 2 day trip to visit his terminally ill mother. I usually handle all money matters but at the time he gave her money, I was seriously ill myself so he took money without my being aware. I have since ordered all bank statement and everything pans out. He has agreed to a polygraph.

Although I am stunned that he behave this way, I do believe he is now telling the truth. He does not travel or go anywhere except to this state a couple times a year. We have been married 27 yrs and have never had any trust issues.

She is definitely not hot!!!!! She seems quite pathetic.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

I would take her up on her offer to meet. Hear what she had to say.

But. It was an inappropriate relationship. Whether romance or sex or anything else was involved- it was inappropriate. Did he consult with you "honey I met this young lady, she needs some help, blah blah blah blah?" Nope. He hid it all from you. And he sent her money? Family money?? Gah!!!!

I agree with the poster above. He was a mark she saw coming. Sure meet with her, hear what she has to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

nickgtg said:


> My ex was the same way, if they didn't have sex then it wasn't an affair. If it wasn't, then why did you work so hard to hide it?


I totally agree with you. He says he hid it because he was certain I would not have approved (No S**t)!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Have him try the EA quiz by Dr. Shirley Glass, the go-to expert on EA's. She wrote 'Not Just Friends.'

Dr. Shirley Glass - Quiz: Has Your Friendship Become an Emotional Affair?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Why don't you find yourself a nice young male "friend" to help out and see how he feels about it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

Samantha36 said:


> She is definitely not hot!!!!! She seems quite pathetic.


did you see her? or did she send him pictures?

if she was a stripper, she probably has some looks

of course, maybe she lied about being a stripper too

Maybe it was just a friendship, but would he go out of his way to talk to and send money to a troubled young man?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ReidWright said:


> did you see her? or did she send him pictures?
> 
> if she was a stripper, she probably has some looks
> 
> ...


I don't know, i've known some ugly strippers. You know, different strokes for different folks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

You need to remember that when it comes to affairs looks don't matter to some. How many times have you read where the spouse "affaired down?"


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

ReidWright said:


> did you see her? or did she send him pictures?
> 
> if she was a stripper, she probably has some looks
> 
> ...


I asked him that very question - he states that as a father of 1 son and 3 daughters, he only felt sorry for her and would not of cared so much about a troubled young man. He claims he just kept imagining one of our daughters in trouble and hoping that someone would have been able to help them.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Why don't you find yourself a nice young male "friend" to help out and see how he feels about it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

May I ask how much money he sent her? And if that amount created an undue burden on the household?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

ReidWright said:


> did you see her? or did she send him pictures?
> 
> if she was a stripper, she probably has some looks
> 
> ...



She never sent my H any pictures or suggestive texts. I saw her pictures from her FB pages and she is unattractive. From the texts that were able to be dug up, conversations were regarding her problem life of wanting to get away from stripping and drinking, weather and sports teams. The first few months after he met her they communicated about twice a month, then I became seriously ill and they began communicating much more. His reason for the uptick in communication was because he was terrified about my illness and had no one to talk to.

You see my H is a bit of an awkward quiet communicator and doesn't have many friends, so to say I was shocked is an understatement.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> May I ask how much money he sent her? And if that amount created an undue burden on the household?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE
> 
> He sent her money twice totaling about $2000 to help with completing her certification and a move out of her mother and stepfather's home.
> ...


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Your reaction is typical of your gut telling you that there is more.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

That's a lot of money. Maybe not life changing money, but a lot of money.

There is no questing he is/was emotionally attached to her. Probably not sexually attracted to her, but emotional. Especially if he was discussing intimate aspects of his life with her.

I hope his motives were that he was truly trying to help the girl, no strings attached. Still, for $2000 you should have been at minimum aware of this and ideally involved in the decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Thorburn said:


> Your reaction is typical of your gut telling you that there is more.



I really don't think there is more as this situation has been investigated. However my gut tells me that perhaps there IS something mentally wrong with my H. This is completely out of character. When I ask him over and over why he didn't stop sooner he claims he wanted to see her on her feet. He confessed the day she tried to friend him on FB and he didn't accept. I had absolutely no clue.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

You need him to admit he had an emotional investment in this woman (girl) in order to be convinced that he really gets why it hurt you. Sounds like the only thing he will admit is that you would not approve, but it doesn't sound like he really understands why.

BTW, I agree wholeheartedly with jnj_express: your counselor is a moron.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Usually when you feel like someone isn't telling you the truth then they're not. He didn't tell you about her for a reason. He's found a technicality in that he has no emotional attachment. Okay if that's true then he kept her secret because he wanted to screw her and you would get in the way of his "knight in shining armor" angle.

Hey it's a disaster diverted in the sense she just used him for money. But if you think he wasn't trying to sleep with her then he'll get off easy. IMO respectfully


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Samantha36 said:


> We are now in couseling because my H had a secret 18 month relationship with a person that is close to our daughter's age. He is extremely remorseful and has vowed to do anything that I need, except for one thing. He will NOT admit that this was indeed an emotional affair.
> 
> He will not bend . He says this was an innappropriate relationship because he hid it. He admits what he did was very very wrong hence the reason for his confession. He says as far as he is concerned an emotional affair MUST have some romance implied or in some form and that he is therefore NOT GUILTY. He says because there was no physical contact, not even a hug and no desire to do so, he did not cheat.
> 
> ...


Your counsellor is


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Philat said:


> You need him to admit he had an emotional investment in this woman (girl) in order to be convinced that he really gets why it hurt you. Sounds like the only thing he will admit is that you would not approve, but it doesn't sound like he really understands why.
> 
> BTW, I agree wholeheartedly with jnj_express: your counselor is a moron.


I think he may admit to an "emotional investment". 

He says he understands that he has betrayed me by his lies and deceit. He is trying very very hard but I think he is having an extremely difficult time forgiving himself for his (according to him) stupid decisions. If he catches me crying he too will fall apart because he says he always knew he would tell me but never ever expected that this would have cause so much hurt. My H has spent his entire life being caring and truthful, a value that we have modeled for our children. Why oh why - especially since it's been confirmed that it was not physical.

Sounds silly but I think it would have been less difficult to digest if sex was involved. At least I would have been able to blame sex as clouding his judgement. BTW this person never implied or offered sex.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

I would think it is definitely an EA. In fact, I suggest va 60 to 90 day trial separation and see if you want to continue the marriage at all.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Now during this time he was experiencing a lot of stress and disrespect from his boss. Many sleepless nights for us both as we discussed what he can do to get out of this situation. He is well compensated so finding a new job has proven difficult. 

He has now been diagnosed with depression and prescribed some rx.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Samantha36 said:


> Now during this time he was experiencing a lot of stress and disrespect from his boss. Many sleepless nights for us both as we discussed what he can do to get out of this situation. He is well compensated so finding a new job has proven difficult.
> 
> He has now been diagnosed with depression and prescribed some rx.


So?

It's STILL an EA.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Samantha36 said:


> My husband confessed to an inappropriate relationship with a person almost our older daughter's age. I've already told my story here. He says *because we chose abortion almost 30 years ago*, when this person came up to him and asked him advice about her boyfriend, he felt guilty for our deed (she is the age our child would have been), realized she was a stripper, felt sorry for her and helped her get out of this lifestyle.


He felt the need to play savior, secretly, because of choosing an abortion 30 years ago? Do you think that could be true, or is he reaching for rationalizations for his behavior?

Has he addressed this 30-year-old guilt in therapy?


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

norajane said:


> He felt the need to play savior, secretly, because of choosing an abortion 30 years ago? Do you think that could be true, or is he reaching for rationalizations for his behavior?
> 
> Has he addressed this 30-year-old guilt in therapy?


This is being addressed in therapy. Also throughout our 30 yrs together he has often express his guilt for what was done. I never understood why he felt so guilty even so many years later as he wanted to get married but I am the one who made the choice.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Samantha36 said:


> This is being addressed in therapy. Also throughout our 30 yrs together he has often express his guilt for what was done. I never understood why he felt so guilty even so many years later as he wanted to get married but I am the one who made the choice.


Maybe he blames you, but doesn't come out and say so. Maybe that's why he didn't tell you about this woman.


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

Umm, can anyone here see what was really going on. 

This story is as old as time. PA-LEEZE.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Rugs said:


> Umm, can anyone here see what was really going on.
> 
> This story is as old as time. PA-LEEZE.


Let's see. trickle truth? blame shifting? justifying?


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

alte Dame said:


> Have him try the EA quiz by Dr. Shirley Glass, the go-to expert on EA's. She wrote 'Not Just Friends.'
> 
> Dr. Shirley Glass - Quiz: Has Your Friendship Become an Emotional Affair?


Scored a 1 - just friends but cautioned that may be on slippery slope. I just ordered the book.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm wondering if you would have caught him instead of him confessing and if you had told him no more contact with her, would he been able to do it?

You could ask him that and see what he says. It might tell you a lot. If he was able to just cut her off, then I might (might!) believe his story.


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

Samantha36 said:


> Scored a 1 - just friends but cautioned that may be on slippery slope. I just ordered the book.


He took the test in front of you? I would say just go with the opposite of every answer he gave, which puts him at a 7 I believe, which is an EA.

Your gut is telling you to worry for a reason.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Samantha36 said:


> Scored a 1 - just friends but cautioned that may be on slippery slope. I just ordered the book.


LOL. My wife tried this crap and then I answered with the text exchange I found. Funny how the score skyrocketed.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

soccermom2three said:


> I'm wondering if you would have caught him instead of him confessing and if you had told him no more contact with her, would he been able to do it?
> 
> You could ask him that and see what he says. It might tell you a lot. If he was able to just cut her off, then I might (might!) believe his story.


Just asked him and he says the minute he saw how hurt and angry I was he would have stopped immediately. I just don't understand how he could possibly have thought that I would not have hit the roof. 

He made the decision to NC and then confessed to me. After I was told, I called her. She agreed to NC, apologized, and ask to meet so she can reexplain it to me. Says when I see and speak to her in person I will see that my H was a father figure and nothing more. Her mother even called me to apologize for her. Twisted situation in that her mother knew of her being a stripper yet the mothers boyfriend feels that she the AP needs to give him sexual perks. 

Interestingly, I have all my H passwords and such yet this happened right under my nose because I didn't suspect a thing.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Samantha36 said:


> Just asked him and he says the minute he saw how hurt and angry I was he would have stopped immediately. I just don't understand how he could possibly have thought that I would not have hit the roof.
> 
> He made the decision to NC and then confessed to me. After I was told, I called her. She agreed to NC, apologized, and ask to meet so she can reexplain it to me. Says when I see and speak to her in person I will see that my H was a father figure and nothing more. Her mother even called me to apologize for her. Twisted situation in that her mother knew of her being a stripper yet the mothers boyfriend feels that she the AP needs to give him sexual perks.
> 
> Interestingly, I have all my H passwords and such yet this happened right under my nose because I didn't suspect a thing.


Except he already knew you'd be hurt and angry and did it anyway. That's why he hid it.
Just sayin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

He swears and cries that he knew I would be a "little angry" when he told me but says he had NO IDEA just HOW angry and life altering this would become.

And though we are each in MC and IC I am still having a very very hard time with this. Even though I know he is remorseful and hasn't seen her in a year I just can't seem to get over this betrayal. We both agree our marriage was very good, enjoyed each other's company, and were each other's best friend but but but he did do these very awful deeds.

I have been betrayed as a child, physically and emotional abused so this has become monumental. I do believe this was a friendship and for peace of mind had some investigations done and everything panned out. He keeps reminding me that I became very ill during his "affair" yet he took such good and loving care of me. So he has begged and begged that I give him a chance.

I do have a lawyer and will see how things go. Just unsure if I can get through this......


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Samantha36 said:


> I do have a lawyer and will see how things go. Just unsure if I can get through this......


You can, but how soon and with how much effort depends to a large extent on your H's willingness to own the consequences of his actions. Reading and understanding Not Just Friends would be a good start on his part.

I can't help but notice his circular reasoning: He has claimed the only inappropriate thing about this "friendship" was that he hid it from you, and the reason he hid it was because he knew you'd be upset, and he knew you'd be upset because...... it was inappropriate?

To be honest, it sounds from your description that deep down he "gets it" but is reluctant to face himself directly with the realization that he did something very harmful to his marriage. My W was the same way: she could not face the reality that she "did something wrong."


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

If he has otherwise been a good husband and father for all these years then a lot is at stake here. 

He shows remorse, he is very upset when you cry, he feels depressed about it. I assume he feels terrible about lying about the money he gave her? Does he admit it was wrong? 

He may find the term EA hard to handle because is contains the word affair. And he felt he was not having an affair. 

I would speak to the girl and have a list of questions prepared to ask her beforehand. Ask her if he said he loved her, if he pushed to meet with her, what they would talk about on the phone. 

Strippers are good at using men as marks. They can tell an excellent sob story and often have multiple men giving them money. And the men get nothing for it, because they fall for these girls hard luck stories. 

What he did was stupid, and he enjoyed playing the hero, but it was not malicious. 

Have you ever caught him lying about money before? Has he any history of lying? Is he a good person in the community? 

If he is telling the truth and you love each other then I think you have an excellent shot at saving your marriage. If you can find a way to put it down to a stupid chapter in your marriage and find a way to put it behind you........in time of course.

He made a very stupid choice, but is trying to work on resolving it.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

indiecat said:


> If he has otherwise been a good husband and father for all these years then a lot is at stake here.
> 
> He shows remorse, he is very upset when you cry, he feels depressed about it. I assume he feels terrible about lying about the money he gave her? Does he admit it was wrong?
> 
> ...


He admits that he was very very wrong for all he has done including giving her money. When I spoke to this woman she assures me that though he did see her, he has never even implied a sexual relationship and the word love was not mentioned by either of them. Now that she works for a group of doctors, when I became ill, the texts at the time were mostly about her asking the doctors for advice on my condition (wtf???).

We had a very good marriage and no major problems. We don't lie to each other, he has been a great father and our kids are well rounded and are doing quite well. One of my biggest dilemma was outing him because he has a great reputation in our community and is well respected - especially by family. We both agree that whichever direction that I choose, our children will never know the details. We know our children well and this would crush them.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

So why would it crush your children if it's no big deal as he says? It sounds to me like he's very much in damage control right now. He knew you'd be mad so he hid it, but he didn't think you'd be that mad, he thought he could get away with it but if you did find out he could cry about how he'd taken care of you and didn't realize what big deal it was, but please don't tell your children because it will crush them even though it's not a big deal and he had no idea you'd be so upset. And please don't tell anyone else because he has a reputation, even though he was only helping a stripper get out of that life, which should really elevate his community standing because it was a good deed on his part and no big deal. See the logic flaws? 

The fact is that he knew what he was doing was bullsh!t and figured you wouldn't find out. Period. Would he be ok if you helped out a nice male friend? I bet not, so he's full of sh!t. Now he's in full damage control mode. Doesn't mean you guys can't get past it but let's call a spade a spade.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> So why would it crush your children if it's no big deal as he says? It sounds to me like he's very much in damage control right now. He knew you'd be mad so he hid it, but he didn't think you'd be that mad, he thought he could get away with it but if you did find out he could cry about how he'd taken care of you and didn't realize what big deal it was, but please don't tell your children because it will crush them even though it's not a big deal and he had no idea you'd be so upset. And please don't tell anyone else because he has a reputation, even though he was only helping a stripper get out of that life, which should really elevate his community standing because it was a good deed on his part and no big deal. See the logic flaws?
> 
> The fact is that he knew what he was doing was bullsh!t and figured you wouldn't find out. Period. Would he be ok if you helped out a nice male friend? I bet not, so he's full of sh!t. Now he's in full damage control mode. Doesn't mean you guys can't get past it but let's call a spade a spade.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It would crush our mostly grown children because they know their father as someone who is trustworthy and very honest. He taught them right from wrong yet he admittedly has done this awful thing wrapped in continuous lies. I made the decision not to tell them and I wanted to (no matter what happens) preserve his relationship with the offspring - as he has been a great father to them and loves them. Having serious conflict between him and them would cause in addition to what I am already going through, an extreme amount of stress FOR ME. I guess it is self-preservation on my part.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I wasn't suggesting you should tell your children; if you feel it's best then don't. I was just pointing out the logic fail in the reasons for not telling them vs his argument that it'snot a big deal and he had no idea you'd be so mad. He did know it was a big deal and didn't think you'd find out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I wasn't suggesting you should tell your children; if you feel it's best then don't. I was just pointing out the logic fail in the reasons for not telling them vs his argument that it'snot a big deal and he had no idea you'd be so bad. He did know it was a big deal and didn't think you'd find out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see what you're saying. But he chose to tell me even though I had no suspicions. Of course lots of things have been going through my mind, one of which perhaps he should not have told me. I just CANNOT wrap my head around the fact that this was hidden from me. After close to 30 yrs, I thought I knew this person :scratchhead:.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You are hurt because he BETRAYED you. He broke your heart with the betrayal. Even if the truth gods could assure you that it wasn't physical and that his feelings weren't deep, romantic ones, it would still be a betrayal of your bond together. And that hurts. It is like a bomb thrown into the marriage.

He has taken the EA short test and given himself a 1. This is probably the result of wishful thinking and fudging on his part. Now he needs to read the book and start accepting that a secret relationship with a young stripper, a relationship that he willfully hid, is not an innocent friendship. Not when he has a wife at home.

And we've all already noted the almost certainty of trickle truth. Even if it never went physical or the correspondence seems innocent, he is trickle-truthing about his own feelings and motivations. You know this and it is driving you nuts. He needs to come out of CYA mode and be honest with himself and with you about the strength of his feelings about this OW.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

alte Dame said:


> You are hurt because he BETRAYED you. He broke your heart with the betrayal. Even if the truth gods could assure you that it wasn't physical and that his feelings weren't deep, romantic ones, it would still be a betrayal of your bond together. And that hurts. It is like a bomb thrown into the marriage.
> 
> He has taken the EA short test and given himself a 1. This is probably the result of wishful thinking and fudging on his part. Now he needs to read the book and start accepting that a secret relationship with a young stripper, a relationship that he willfully hid, is not an innocent friendship. Not when he has a wife at home.
> 
> And we've all already noted the almost certainty of trickle truth. Even if it never went physical or the correspondence seems innocent, he is trickle-truthing about his own feelings and motivations. You know this and it is driving you nuts. He needs to come out of CYA mode and be honest with himself and with you about the strength of his feelings about this OW.



Oh my goodness!! You understand me completely. I have told him over and over that if he admitted to me that he had feelings for her it would be much easier for us to get through this. No matter what, he has stood firm in saying that he nor she had ANY romantic feelings for each other.

And yes you are right it is driving me crazy and I think I am losing my mind. And even when he is being faced with losing this marriage, even though we are both crying, he still will not admit feelings other than that of a concerned "father". I am despairing as I don't think this can work... Perhaps a new counselor is in order.


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## Reluctant_Doubter (Apr 11, 2013)

Samantha36 said:


> Oh my goodness!! You understand me completely. I have told him over and over that if he admitted to me that he had feelings for her it would be much easier for us to get through this.


You are both so right. My wife refuses to admit that time she spent alone with another man I have never met, and without my knowledge, was an EA.

Irrespective of how harmless the circumstances or how innocent the friendship, why can't they "get" that hiding a relationship outside of the marriage is crossing a boundary and a BIG red flag.

She has still failed to explain that relationship in a way that makes sense to me and allows me to move on. She has not related it to problems in our relationship nor given any reasons understandable to me for never disclosing it (until discovered).

You are so right. If she could just own up to attraction - even if unrequited (as I believe it was as the other man was never secret about it and his own wife was fully informed) - then it would help me rationalize it, forgive and move on.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

remember, you are dealing with a STRIPPER. these are women who use sex to extract money from men, and if they ask for their name, they wont remember it an hour later. see what i'm getting at? she isn't going to cut her own throat. its like "stripper code" that is, you don't snitch about the men that are feeding you.

so the million dollar question is did your husband sleep with this piece of work? hard to say, just be prepared for the fact that you will NEVER know the truth. can you live with that? too me the red flag is that communication spiked up when you were ill. 

sorry to be blunt. just my opinion. hope you can get through this whatever you decide. but your life has just changed forever.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

At the end of the day, it takes 2 willing participants to make something work. When it comes to marriage and long committed relationships, or reconciliation, in addition to being willing, the 2 participants must also be dedicated to making the relationship/marriage/reconciliation the top priority. 

If you need, and that word is important, if you need him to admit to this being an emotional affair, and he is unwilling to do it, the "who is right" question doesn't even matter. You have a need, and he is unwilling to fulfill it. 

Is there a compromise in this for you? From the point of view of a fBS I would have a tough time if something as basic and unimportant as the title one assigns to a deed that both parties agree was wrong is such a major impasse for a fWS.

This was obviously outside the boundaries of your marriage, and using the child you both chose to abort as a justification for these actions is kind of nauseating for me. If he was open and honest with you from the start this would be a non issue, but he chose to keep it a secret, why? *Because it felt good to do it.* Your feelings were not a consideration. What does your counselor have to say about that?

BTW I had initial sessions with 4 counselors before I found a good one, and all of the ones I went to before settling on one were vetted by research and were all counselors with over 10 years in the field. I always recommend IC first, then MC with the same counselor you choose for your own counseling(not all are comfortable doing that, you have to ask in advance)


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Paladin said:


> Is there a compromise in this for you? From the point of view of a fBS I would have a tough time if something as basic and unimportant as the title one assigns to a deed that both parties agree was wrong is such a major impasse for a fWS.


I am sorry but these days I sometimes have a hard time understanding. Can you please reexplain this to me?


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Samantha36 said:


> I am sorry but these days I sometimes have a hard time understanding. Can you please reexplain this to me?


I think he is being an ass for not doing such a basic thing for you, you need to consider leaving him if he is unable to meet such basic needs. Both of you agree that it was wrong, why does it matter what that is called<to him>? I can understand why you want him to admit that it was an Emotional affair, I was a betrayed spouse at one point in time and know how important those distinctions can be. I would have had an almost impossible time reconciling with my spouse if she took the position your husband is taking.

I hope thats a bit better, text is inadequate sometimes.

edit:

This just occurred to me, would he have the same problem if you said that it was a "non-physical affair?" Is it the word "emotional" that he is hung up on, or the word "affair?" If its the latter (affair) than he is not accepting responsibility fr his actions and you two have a major problem to resolve.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Paladin said:


> This was obviously outside the boundaries of your marriage, and using the child you both chose to abort as a justification for these actions is kind of nauseating for me. If he was open and honest with you from the start this would be a non issue, but he chose to keep it a secret, why? *Because it felt good to do it.* Your feelings were not a consideration. What does your counselor have to say about that?


My counselor and my husband has definitely stated that my feelings were not taken into consideration. All agree, H included that his actions were unbelievably selfish, self-centered, and wrong. These things are not in dispute however still he will not own up to this being an affair.

He begs and begs for forgiveness but will not own up.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Okay, we just spoke again.....

He says he is 100% guilty of everthing except the "affair" part. He says he will NOT confess to a crime he did not commit. He says if he gave a child something some candy that he wasn't supposed to have he is guilty of that and will take punishment. He says he will not agree to having molested that child - period.

Says it is important to him because he has not touched another woman in 30yrs and an affair biblically or otherwise implies some type of romantic feeling and/or touch.

So this is what I am dealing with now.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Samantha36 said:


> .... however still he will not own up to this being an affair.
> 
> He begs and begs for forgiveness but will not own up.


I am so sorry you find yourself in this situation. My read on this matches yours, he is unwilling to own it, and is not remorseful. He feels that his delusion that this woman was/is in anyway a representation of the child you did not have is a justification for his actions. That point of view is dysfunctional. My spouse was genuinely remorseful from the start. She confessed, and from that point forward, went above and beyond to help me heal and move on.

The counselor you are seeing can not possibly be supportive of your husbands viewpoint about this issue, if that counselor is, you need to seek a second opinion.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Paladin said:


> I
> This just occurred to me, would he have the same problem if you said that it was a "non-physical affair?" Is it the word "emotional" that he is hung up on, or the word "affair?" If its the latter (affair) than he is not accepting responsibility fr his actions and you two have a major problem to resolve.


He objects to the word "affair".


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Is this just semantics? Maybe he just has a narrower understanding of the word than you do. How about "inappropriate emotional relationship?" If you do not believe he is hiding any facts about this relationship then maybe you can get past his hang-up about the word (which he seems to think equals adultery).

You counselor, if he/she was worth a damn, ought to have picked up on this.


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

Samantha36 said:


> Oh my goodness!! You understand me completely. I have told him over and over that if he admitted to me that he had feelings for her it would be much easier for us to get through this. No matter what, he has stood firm in saying that he nor she had ANY romantic feelings for each other.
> 
> And yes you are right it is driving me crazy and I think I am losing my mind. And even when he is being faced with losing this marriage, even though we are both crying, he still will not admit feelings other than that of a concerned "father". I am despairing as I don't think this can work... Perhaps a new counselor is in order.


Maybe it's actually........the truth?

It sounds like to me like your husband is tortured over that abortion - which I think is a big, big deal - and has some other major stresses (e.g., his job, others?). He didn't tell you about this because he feared the jump - that has, in fact, happened - that there is no way this thing could be anything other than an affair. There are times when I won't talk about something that happened at work, or at the gym, simply because it involved a female my wife doesn't know. (FTR, this fear was established long before my EA, my wife admitted, she never liked hearing about me doing anything with a female, whether or not she knew her, frankly).

Is it possible for people to restate all of this, with a male as the charity case, in their mind, and know for sure that the husband isn't telling the truth? And go all the way back to, the aborted child was a son. This is definitely unusual, no doubt, but it sounds to me more like, a deep psychological guilt drove this guy to feel the need to help this girl, and he didn't tell his wife because he knew it was weird, and that it would just look like, "oh, you're banging a stripper!"


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Paladin said:


> I am so sorry you find yourself in this situation. My read on this matches yours,* he is unwilling to own it, and is not remorseful.* He feels that his delusion that this woman was/is in anyway a representation of the child you did not have is a justification for his actions. That point of view is dysfunctional. My spouse was genuinely remorseful from the start. She confessed, and from that point forward, went above and beyond to help me heal and move on.
> 
> The counselor you are seeing can not possibly be supportive of your husbands viewpoint about this issue, if that counselor is, you need to seek a second opinion.


No remorse = no successful reconciliation


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Samantha36 said:


> I see what you're saying. *But he chose to tell me even though I had no suspicions. *Of course lots of things have been going through my mind, one of which perhaps he should not have told me. I just CANNOT wrap my head around the fact that this was hidden from me. After close to 30 yrs, I thought I knew this person :scratchhead:.


Or did he choose to tell you due to the OW going to expose him herself to you?

He seems pretty h3ll bent on damage control. Most infidelity stories I read where the WS is on super damage control is b/c way more happened than the BS knows about.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

vi_bride04 said:


> Or did he choose to tell you due to the OW going to expose him herself to you?
> 
> He seems pretty h3ll bent on damage control. Most infidelity stories I read where the WS is on super damage control is b/c way more happened than the BS knows about.


This may or may not be true...

When my husband decided to tell me (according to both of them), she agreed to NC but told him NOT TO TELL ME. She told him and me that she knew it would be devastating because she is/was a stripper and I would never believe it was a friendship.

Keep in mind she lives 3 states away and has physically seen her 3 or 4 times in those 18 months. He was in that state because his mother was very ill and has sinced passed away. 

He says he chose to tell me because he absolutely knew what he was doing was wrong.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

My thoughts as a man, who is a BS, whose wife had a strong EA.

I think your husband had no intentions for this young lady, nor did he love her, or have a crush of any kind.

However, during the process, I do believe the fact she was a young female added a bit of intrigue and maybe even a "what if" fantasy for him. He didn't have any emotional attachment, but the interaction likely excited him just a tiny bit. Enough to keep it going. But he never would have acted on it, and never had "feelings" for her.

Then, at some point, he went, "what the hell am I doing?" I think he did this realizing what it might look like to others/you.

My point is it sounds like your husband is an honorable man, who tried to help a young lady with her problems. It excited him just a tinge, but he never was going to be unfaithful in any way. 

In fact, being unfaithful in any way goes completely against his moral code for himself, so "admitting" to anything that has the big A word will never happen. He just doesn't see himself as CAPABLE of having an affair of any kind, nor did he intend to have one. I can totally put myself in his shoes. And I'm a BS.

So you will have to decide if him calling this relationship an "emotional affair" instead of an "inappropriate relationship" is necessary for you to stay with him. 

Given all the work he is doing, the fact he is admitting fault, that all your facts check out, do you really want to blow up your otherwise perfectly good marriage over a formality on a word choice? He's admitting he was wrong. To me it sounds like you just want to hold that particular word over his head. And he won't accept that. I do not blame him for his position.

I think you need to step back and look at the bigger picture of this.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

Philat said:


> Is this just semantics? Maybe he just has a narrower understanding of the word than you do. How about *"inappropriate emotional relationship?" * If you do not believe he is hiding any facts about this relationship then maybe you can get past his hang-up about the word (which he seems to think equals adultery).
> 
> You counselor, if he/she was worth a damn, ought to have picked up on this.


Going against the grain of most other posters here but I think you hit it on the head, Philat. He knows he did something wrong. He has shown all kinds of remorse and seems to be torn up over the immense disruption this is causing his marriage. There was deception in hiding the relationship and it sounds like all parties involved agree on this. If OP truly believes him when he says that there was no physical intimacy AT ALL and he truly believes himself that he had no romantic/sexual interest in her AT ALL and was only trying to help what he perceived to be a poor, wayward young woman whom he felt very sorry for and this was compounded by guilt over a previous abortion, then I can see how he is stuck on the word *affair*. 

In my mind, an affair (whether physical or emotional) is when a spouse is seeking fulfillment of some sort from someone outside of the marriage of something that only the spouse should be able to provide. Sexual intimacy. Romantic commitment. Intimate support. 

I'm probably a little different from most other posters in this thread in that I have never been cheated on nor have I cheated. I guess I'm not as jaded as I should or could be. But I can see a line between affair and inappropriate relationship.

Believe me when I say that I sympathize with the OP and I fully agree that the husband went out of bounds and was inappropriate. And maybe the only reason that he confessed to OP was because he felt his feelings turning in a direction that scared him and he decided to stop everything dead in its tracks. Either way, he was wrong. Was he throw away 27 years of solid marriage, great father, all-around great guy wrong? I would say no. But in the end, its up to OP.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> My thoughts as a man, who is a BS, whose wife had a strong EA.
> 
> I think your husband had no intentions for this young lady, nor did he love her, or have a crush of any kind.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Samantha36 said:


> This is being addressed in therapy. Also throughout our 30 yrs together he has often express his guilt for what was done. I never understood why he felt so guilty even so many years later as he wanted to get married but I am the one who made the choice.


Is it possible? Repressed guilt for not being able to save the child, repressed anger for the choice you made. I agree your DH made some poor choices, but try to listen with a compassionate heart. The consequences you indicated strike the right balance for this betrayal. Ask your DH to explain why this will never happen again. He has to understand what this relationship activated in himself in order to establish a boundary to prevent a reoccurrence. Kindest Regards-
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

If his critical issue with owning up to what he has done is the actual word 'affair,' then don't use the word. Just use the most basic definition of the word when you describe what he did: He betrayed you with another woman.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

Samantha36 said:


> I have told him over and over that if he admitted to me that he had feelings for her it would be much easier for us to get through this. No matter what, he has stood firm in saying that he nor she had ANY romantic feelings for each other.


Isn't it at least a possibility that this is the truth, that he does not have any feelings for her. What does he do then, lie about that so you can get past it?

The only thing you know for sure and can prove is that he gave her money, had a friendship and hid it because you wouldn't understand and approve (which he was 100% completely correct about). He had two choices at that point; honor the feelings he knew you would have or do what he did. He chose wrong. Be mad about that. Stop being mad about all of the other hypothetical elements that you have no idea whether they are correct or not.

If you can't do that, then by all means allow his error in judgement blow up a 27 year marriage.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Zatol Ugot? said:


> In my mind, an affair (whether physical or emotional) is when a spouse is seeking fulfillment of some sort from someone outside of the marriage of something that only the spouse should be able to provide. Sexual intimacy. Romantic commitment. Intimate support.
> 
> I'm probably a little different from most other posters in this thread in that I have never been cheated on nor have I cheated. I guess I'm not as jaded as I should or could be. But I can see a line between affair and inappropriate relationship.


So her husband seeking closure for his feelings about the abortion of their child outside of his marriage to his wife somehow falls outside of this definition?

Its hard sometimes to figure out why there is such a difference in tone when a female is posting this vs when a male is posting this 

a male posts about his wife having a secret 18 moth relationship with a young male stripper and refusing to call it an affair would have the 2x4 crowd in here in an instant calling his spouse a wh*re

Soon as the tables are flipped, he is just a man who is wracked with guilt and is sorry for what he did, she should just move on and cut the guy a break.

What gives TAM?


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Paulination said:


> If you can't do that, then by all means allow his error in judgement blow up a 27 year marriage.


Eating that third hamburger and dealing with heartburn for the rest of the night is an error in judgement. Drinking the extra free margarita then projectile vomiting on the bar tender is an error in judgement. Doing something you knew full well to be wrong for 18 months does not seem to fit the definition, unless he is the ultimate slow learner, but she would not be posting here if that was the case. 

His inability to call it an affair is a huge problem, and saying that she is in any way "allowing" her marriage to blow up is off base and unfair. If he brought this to her attention at the very start, there would not have been any "error in judgement" to begin with, and whatever issues they had in their marriage could have been worked on without the added burden of this massive betrayal/breach of healthy marital boundaries.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

alte Dame said:


> If his critical issue with owning up to what he has done is the actual word 'affair,' then don't use the word. Just use the most basic definition of the word when you describe what he did: He betrayed you with another woman.


Thank you! We have now both agree that "he betrayed me with another woman" is acceptable.

He says he will continue doing everything and anything to earn back trust. I had him see the posts and though he already knew the magnitude of what he's done, it also help for him to see it written by others. Thanks again.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Paulination said:


> Isn't it at least a possibility that this is the truth, that he does not have any feelings for her. What does he do then, lie about that so you can get past it?
> 
> The only thing you know for sure and can prove is that he gave her money, had a friendship and hid it because you wouldn't understand and approve (which he was 100% completely correct about). He had two choices at that point; honor the feelings he knew you would have or do what he did. He chose wrong. Be mad about that. Stop being mad about all of the other hypothetical elements that you have no idea whether they are correct or not.
> 
> If you can't do that, then by all means allow his error in judgement blow up a 27 year marriage.


Okay, I now understand and agree with this. Lots of work ahead of us though. Thank you.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Paladin said:


> So her husband seeking closure for his feelings about the abortion of their child outside of his marriage to his wife somehow falls outside of this definition?
> 
> Its hard sometimes to figure out why there is such a difference in tone when a female is posting this vs when a male is posting this
> 
> ...


This is pretty typical unfortunately. Can you imagine the screaming if she was giving him marital money, which by definition belongs to the husband since he's the only one that ever works, as evidenced by the choirs of "cut off her money" chanted when a wife misbehaves?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Well I will say this - it seems as if it is tickle truth to me. My former spouse went out and got involved with a coworker and then led about it the whole time - telling everyone including her kids it was a figment of their imagination. Went through one son's HS graduation - disaster. Then finally get through oldest son's graduation from university this year and she FINALLY admits 30 months after she had the affair that "my fooling around had NOTHING to do with your behaviour in the marriage!" Wow...30 months! It takes some people that long to come to a realization as to what they are doing! Too little, too late. I feel good she finally realized it - but point being to this thread - the husband may think he did nothing wrong but truth is if he is feeling guilty he KNOWS he did something wrong...call it whatever..but he knows it is wrong - which would make me suspicious.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

bigtone128 said:


> Well I will say this - it seems as if it is tickle truth to me. My former spouse went out and got involved with a coworker and then led about it the whole time - telling everyone including her kids it was a figment of their imagination. Went through one son's HS graduation - disaster. Then finally get through oldest son's graduation from university this year and she FINALLY admits 30 months after she had the affair that "my fooling around had NOTHING to do with your behaviour in the marriage!" Wow...30 months! It takes some people that long to come to a realization as to what they are doing! Too little, too late. I feel good she finally realized it - but point being to this thread - the husband may think he did nothing wrong but truth is if he is feeling guilty he KNOWS he did something wrong...call it whatever..but he knows it is wrong - which would make me suspicious.


He is very aware that he did a lot wrong, which is the reason he confessed as I had no suspicions. He admits as a poster suggested that "he betrayed me with another woman".

He knew during his relationship with her and after he confessed that what he had been doing was wrong - very very wrong. This has caused him to lose an enormous amount of weight and experience many a sleepless night all due to the realization that not only is divorce an option, but that this is ALL HIS DOING. 

In his fits and crying sessions, I hear him repeating over and over "I can't believe I caused this".


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Samantha36 said:


> He is very aware that he did a lot wrong, which is the reason he confessed as I had no suspicions. He admits as a poster suggested that "he betrayed me with a woman".


You're getting there but it's like pulling teeth.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Philat said:


> You're getting there but it's like pulling teeth.


:iagree:


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Samantha, I glad there has been some progress. I think it was a good idea to have him read the posts here.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi Samantha

Are you OK with "he betrayed you with a woman"?


My situation is a bit similar to yours. 2 1/2 years ago I discovered that my H was engaged in 3 "inappropriate relationships" with other women. The longest of them was 2 1/2 years. Like you, these were non-sexual and to the best of my knowledge he never discussed "feelings" with them, although I clearly saw signs of infatuation on the part of my H and the OW's. My H saw them as professional friendships although he was clearly filling emotional voids that he should have addressed with me. These relationships did harm our marriage, no doubt. I was clear that they had no place in our marriage, and yes, I was willing to divorce over them. After I confronted H, he insisted they were "just friends" but it was the MC that defined them as EA's after the first appointment with him. Two weeks later, H acknowledged that they were in fact affairs and that he had in fact been "attracted" to these women. I let him know that the healing was going to be on MY terms, not his.

I tell you this because I believe that your H is attempting to minimize the impact of this relationship on you by not calling it an affair. Despite the fact that your H claims to be remorseful, he refuses to give you a word...affair. He should be doing everything in his power to heal you, yet he is holding onto a sense of self-righteousness in characterizing what he has done. Let's review.

Trust - he knowingly and willfully misled you for 18 months about the fact that another woman was in his life. SHE knew it was wrong as well since she asked him not to tell you about it after he requested NC. 

Boundaries - he picked up a stripper in a bar and formed a relationship with her. Even if he had simply talked to her one evening, it should have ended at that. Instead, they maintained contact. There had to be some attraction.

Judgment - He actually thought this was a good idea?

He infact did harm the marriage, even if you did not suspect anything. All of the emotional support that he gave to this woman was rightfully yours and your children's. Lets not even start on the $2000! When I read that he gave her money in an earlier post, I figured a few $100....$2000!?

Blameshifting - H's issues with the abortion feel a bit like blameshifting to me. I understand that he had some strong emotions and he had an opportunity to build intimacy with you by sharing them and giving you the opportunity to work through them with him. Instead, he chose to replace you with a relationship with OW. Like it or not, sex or no sex, when you replace your spouse with another person, its an affair. 

Samantha, based on my experience, you are setting yourself up for failure if you and H do not agree on the nature of this relationship. It has already been 8 months and you are still deeply troubled over this. You have not yet begun to heal, heck, it sounds like you are still fighting for the fact that you should be hurt at all. You are negotiating the right to have justified emotions about this situation. 

You and your H need to be prepared to deal with all of the fallout that comes from an affair, triggers, anger, sorrow, the whole emotional rollercoaster. Even in a good R (and yes, my H and I have R'd), three years from now, you may have a strong emotional episode and you H need to stand by you and take it like a man. He can't minimize it and he already is. Sounds like he's not up to the task of R.

Understand that if your marriage fails, its your H that threw it away, not you.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Busy Accountant said:


> I tell you this because I believe that your H is attempting to minimize the impact of this relationship on you by not calling it an affair. *Despite the fact that your H claims to be remorseful, he refuses to give you a word...affair. He should be doing everything in his power to heal you, yet he is holding onto a sense of self-righteousness in characterizing what he has done. *


:iagree:


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Okay folks pls help me.....

Is this normal? I am already upset, he in turn knows that he is completely responsible for this. So he cries and cries, barely eats, has gained only 5 of the 40 pounds he's lost and is a diabetic. I try to get through to him but he is unconsolable.. His counselor has told him to "man up" but he seems unable to get it together. He repeats over and over that he can't believe that he's done this. Over and over and over....

I ask him to explain what he's done thinking perhaps of a confession but he just states that he cannot believe he is capable of causing me so much pain. He was prescribed antidepressants yet has not filled them. We seriously thought that after the investigation has proven that he was telling the truth, after obtaining phone and bank records, things would have calmed down but I AM still upset. Still upset because I was betrayed for absolutely no reason other them H being unbelievably selfish. 

I know some will say I am overreacting but to have him do this - a person who when we were broke college students would put his last $5 in the ATM so I can withdraw it on the other side of town - this is the person who has betrayed me.

In the meantime, I am afraid for him. Now even though I too am suffering, I suffer more seeing him in this condition. I CANNOT help appearing upset, so him knowing this cause him to attempt to comfort me and then fall apart. Heck even when I am not crying, if I look for him he is crying. Prior to this, I have never seen this man cry, not even when a car slammed through our home at the end of the cul de sac. We thought 2 of our kids were underneath the car but thank God they were spared and uninjured.

My question: If I were to leave, I am certain that he would crumble or maybe even take his life. If I stay, how do I deal with this? So what am I to do, We love each other and up until this have never harmed or lied to each other. What to do and dreading yet another night of crying for us both.....

How can I stop this pain??????


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Have him see a psychiatrist and start anti depressants. Sertraline(Zoloft) at 75-100mg per day is a good starting dose on a safe well known SSRI. Make sure the psychiatrist you see knows what they are doing. Most anti depressants need to be scaled up slowly, so in order to lets say hit 75mg, he would need to start at 25mg for 14 days, then 50 for 7, then 75, and thats really fast, he will have trouble sticking with it if he starts any faster as it can cause massive fatigue and other issues.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> My thoughts as a man, who is a BS, whose wife had a strong EA.
> 
> I think your husband had no intentions for this young lady, nor did he love her, or have a crush of any kind.
> 
> ...


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Samantha

You love your husband and it is clear he loves you.

You have a husband that is compassionate towards others.

Did he lie? Yes.

Did he give money to another person in need without discussing it with you? Yes.

So figure out why he lied. Get to the root of his issues. And have him work hard to fix them so you both can communicate honestly with each other.

Stop contemplating divorce. You don't divorce when two people love each other. You work hard together to fix the problems.

Good Luck, keep fighting for your marriage and I hope your H fights for you.

And knock that lying streak right out of him.

HM
(A father of 3 girls so I understand why he did what he did but disagree how he went about doing it!!!).


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Samantha36 said:


> Okay folks pls help me.....
> 
> Is this normal? I am already upset, he in turn knows that he is completely responsible for this. So he cries and cries, barely eats, has gained only 5 of the 40 pounds he's lost and is a diabetic. I try to get through to him but he is unconsolable.. His counselor has told him to "man up" but he seems unable to get it together. He repeats over and over that he can't believe that he's done this. Over and over and over....
> 
> ...


I think you two both just need some time to weather the storm. 

And REALIZE that won't happen overnight. 

He has done what he can and proven himself. You have done your best to understand. Now you need to be patient.

Relax. Go to the movies together. Go on a hike. Do things you enjoy doing together. Time will begin to heal you both. 

You have not rugswept this. It's been dealt with pretty thoroughly it seems. So now, my advice would be to begin doing "normal" or "happy" things together and be patient.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

I, too, dont see this as an EA in terms of your husband wanting to be unfaithful sexually.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Often, someone who cries and barely eats can be told over and over again: you have depression, it's an actual medical condition for which you need medication, you've been given a prescription, and you need to start medication, but the person keeps crying and not eating.

He can hear the information but accepting it something else entirely.

There's a stigma associated with "depression." Who wants to admit to having THAT? 

There's a stigma associated with the word "affair." Shirley Glass says that *"if the relationship is an open book, it is probably a friendship. When attempts are made to hide feelings or interactions, the friendship is becoming something else."* The relationship may not have progressed to the level that your husband claims it would "NEVER" have gone to. But keeping it secret for 18 months certainly left a door open for him, a door for an OPPORTUNITY with a STRIPPER. He can deny this to you and most importantly, to himself, all day long, but if he had been helping a MAN for 18 months, with no potential for an eventual OPPORTUNITY of something more, would it have stayed a secret? Not likely.

This is the infamous slippery slope of emotional affairs. He is denying it because he has compartmentalized it. He has walled off this part of his thinking so far that he can't even access it himself. It's too awful even for HIM to go there. But some dark part of him wanted to at least keep that POSSIBILITY open - THAT'S why this was kept a secret from you for so long. There is no other explanation for "helping someone get on their feet" in secret, unless it might POSSIBLY, MAYBE (but it wouldn't be his fault, of course - the stripper vixen would have had to seduce him) turned sexual at some point.

He is denying this because he can't face this awful truth himself. On some level, there was a small glimmer of naughty hope that it might go this way. There is no other reason for him to keep her a secret from you or to engage in FINANCIAL INFIDELITY (spend thousands of dollars without consulting you).

(Even now he should be able to admit to the financial infidelity - this is a commonly accepted term for spending large amounts without consulting your spouse - which would be a start in terms of getting him to come around in his thinking about this whole thing.)

Stigma keeps a lot of people from facing hard truths. A good counselor can help. You don't have one, apparently.

I recommend the National Registry of Marriage Friendly Therapists:
Marriage Friendly Therapists

Make sure the therapist has experience working with couples dealing with infidelity


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

hopefulgirl said:


> There's a stigma associated with the word "affair." Shirley Glass says that *"if the relationship is an open book, it is probably a friendship. When attempts are made to hide feelings or interactions, the friendship is becoming something else."* The relationship may not have progressed to the level that your husband claims it would "NEVER" have gone to. But keeping it secret for 18 months certainly left a door open for him, a door for an OPPORTUNITY with a STRIPPER. He can deny this to you and most importantly, to himself, all day long, but if he had been helping a MAN for 18 months, with no potential for an eventual OPPORTUNITY of something more, would it have stayed a secret? Not likely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He was going to tell me after 8 months (still bad, I know) but I became very very ill, almost died , so then he couldn't tell me.

Unfortunately for me, during the time I was ill, instead of ending the relationship, claiming he had no one to talk to, they began texting even more. Prior to my becoming ill their contacts were sporadic.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Samantha36 said:


> He was going to tell me after 8 months (still bad, I know) but I became very very ill, almost died , so then he couldn't tell me.
> 
> Unfortunately for me, during the time I was ill, instead of ending the relationship, claiming he had no one to talk to, they began texting even more. Prior to my becoming their contacts were sporadic.


8 months of secrecy is 8 months too long. Again, would he have kept it a secret from you if he'd been helping a MAN? Someone who was NOT a stripper? This had slippery slope written all over it. 

There was no reason to keep it a secret EXCEPT for the fact that it was naughty because she was a stripper and this COULD possibly, maybe go sexual some day if she turned all vixen on him and MADE him be bad. It wouldn't be his fault then. She would make a move on him, it would come out of nowhere, he wasn't thinking about that AT ALL. See? He wasn't PLANNING it. This is how he's managing his guilt, by walling this wishful thinking off with such thick cement dungeon bricks that he can even deny it himself.

What other explanation is there for hiding the relationship with this girl from you? If you've both helped people financially TOGETHER before, there's no reason for him to hide this unless there's a potential sexual angle to it.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Samantha

You have a great capacity to love your H, and, when the time is right, forgive him.

Your H is focused on himself rather than you. That is why you are having a hard time moving forward. That's the way depression is though. Is there a history of depression in his family? Your H did not ask for depression or his diabetes. Right now his mental and physical health may take priority over your healing. I know, that sucks. There were times after Dday for me that other issues with my family needed more attention than my healing. I was broken inside and just wanted to crumble into the fetal position and scream "Does anyone understand that its MY turn to have a crisis!' And still, I put one foot in front of the other and pushed forward. It demonstrates one of the basic principles around here...that BS's are the strong ones in R. The weight of the entire marriage at times rests on their shoulders.

Perhaps you can give your H assurance for a certain period of time (6 months?) that you will not entertain divorce so that both of you can get your feet on the ground. I would not let it go on indefinitely though, minimizing and burying your feelings does not work over the long haul. Trust me, I tried. However your assurances should come with a set of conditions.
1. Your H take every measure available to care for himself both mentally and physically. That means taking his anti-depressants and caring for his diabetes and any other things that you are concerned about.
2. H participates fully in MC and IC with a counselor you both agree upon. Your counselor needs to have compassion for the spot both of you are in.
3. H agrees to educate himself on affairs, whether he agrees it was or not. NJF gave me a lot of insight that I did not get from MC. I read it over a year after Dday, but I still found it helpful. There may be other resources that you find. H needs to agree to read whatever you tell him to.
4. There may be other things you come up with, perhaps some small jester that begins to heal you. I was able to get nightly foot rubs from my H for months!

Its important that your H read NJF's. Maybe you should put a second copy on order. Glass takes a very compassionate approach with WS's. A "good people do bad things" approach. Samantha, your H sounds like a good person whose selfishness overrode his deeper character. It sounds like you know that about him and when the time is right, you may be able to forgive his actions. The problem is, right now, you H is not able to forgive himself.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

hopefulgirl said:


> 8 months of secrecy is 8 months too long. Again, would he have kept it a secret from you if he'd been helping a MAN? Someone who was NOT a stripper? This had slippery slope written all over it.
> 
> There was no reason to keep it a secret EXCEPT for the fact that it was naughty because she was a stripper and this COULD possibly, maybe go sexual some day if she turned all vixen on him and MADE him be bad. It wouldn't be his fault then. She would make a move on him, it would come out of nowhere, he wasn't thinking about that AT ALL. See? He wasn't PLANNING it. This is how he's managing his guilt, by walling this wishful thinking off with such thick cement dungeon bricks that he can even deny it himself.
> 
> What other explanation is there for hiding the relationship with this girl from you? If you've both helped people financially TOGETHER before, there's no reason for him to hide this unless there's a potential sexual angle to it.


Agreed, secrets always bad.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

The problem here....is that he kept it a secret.

Had he told you from the beginning who he met, why he felt the need to help her, and then helped her, would that have been different?

People hide what they know is wrong. If he was so "noble", why the secrets?

Lies and secrets damage a marriage more than any act, imo.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

hopefulgirl said:


> There's a stigma associated with "depression." Who wants to admit to having THAT?
> 
> There's a stigma associated with the word "affair." Shirley Glass says that *"if the relationship is an open book, it is probably a friendship. When attempts are made to hide feelings or interactions, the friendship is becoming something else."* He can *deny* this to you and *most importantly*, to *himself*, all day long, but if he had been helping a MAN for 18 months, with no potential for an eventual OPPORTUNITY of something more, would it have stayed a secret? Not likely.
> 
> ...


Wow, this is great insight and advice, I wish I could click like more than once. OP should really read this entire reply and discuss it with a counselor.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Not much sleep last night but with all the great advice I've received, today seems just a bit more doable - thank you all.

On a lighter note, I don't think my husband would have slept with her, though for my peace of mind I needed to have things checked out....

But how to say this politely? She was not only unattractive, she also has ... a deformity. Iow she has a lazy eye. I was under the impression that all strippers were hot and beautiful eye candy (pun intended), but I guess I was wrong.

Having said that, she does have a very seductive appearance, but I can see why money wasn't being raked in during her career of choice. Except of course money from my husband!

Yes I know I am angry and catty, but it is what it is and does not erase the deeply hurtful fact that my H chose to have a year and a half relationship with her in secret.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Lazy eye - glass eye - missing a finger or two - do you really think that when men are looking at strippers, they really pay that much attention to THOSE parts of them?


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

hopefulgirl said:


> Lazy eye - glass eye - missing a finger or two - do you really think that when men are looking at strippers, they really pay that much attention to THOSE parts of them?


Funny and so true.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

hopefulgirl said:


> Lazy eye - glass eye - missing a finger or two - do you really think that when men are looking at strippers, they really pay that much attention to THOSE parts of them?



Well, yes. Yes, of course.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

> Originally Posted by *hopefulgirl *
> Lazy eye - glass eye - missing a finger or two - do you really think that when men are looking at strippers, they really pay that much attention to THOSE parts of them?





aug said:


> Well, yes. Yes, of course.


:rofl::lol:


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Samantha36 said:


> He was going to tell me after 8 months (still bad, I know) but I became very very ill, almost died , so then he couldn't tell me.
> 
> *Unfortunately for me, during the time I was ill, instead of ending the relationship, claiming he had no one to talk to, they began texting even more. Prior to my becoming ill their contacts were sporadic*.


This seals the word affair for me...if it still matters. Your H's narrative of the relationship was that he was trying to help her change her life. Usually when one encounters challenges in their personal life, their "charitable" work goes down, not up. So, clearly there was more to this relationship than just benevolence on the part of your H. Did he seriously have no one else to talk to? Or is OW simply who he chose to talk to?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I don't think it was an affair based, if what you have described is the truth. 

I think it's a mid life crisis. It was an escape from the stress of life. We all have our escapes. A man feeling bad about work wants to be "good" at something.

I think he needs professional help. And you have to judge whether or not he is healing himself or not. You can't make him do it. And if he doesn't heal himself, particpate in putting himself in a mental state where he can be your husband, then I would suggest divorce. It's sad that it may make it worse, but you have to look at him like he is an alocolic. He has to stop and it's up to him to stop, and loved ones cannot get dragged into the vortex.

You could possibly help by things ... if he says "I can't believe I caused this"... you respond by "What are you going to do to get past it?".... Always look to the future.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

that_girl said:


> The problem here....is that he kept it a secret.
> 
> Had he told you from the beginning who he met, why he felt the need to help her, and then helped her, would that have been different?
> 
> ...


I thought about this again and have changed my mind. No I don't think it would have made a difference if he told me because I would not have been comfortable with helping her - even together - so this proposal would have been rejected. We live 3 states away and don't visit often so I would really feel uncomfortable because I wouldn't know at the time if she were being truthful. After all we hadn't yet developed a "friendship". You know, the whole stripper lying thing.....

Unless we met her together, I would always wonder why my husband was talking to her in the first place. And if we were together, she probably would not have approached us both.

As an aside, I am still surprised that this encounter happened in a family sports bar in the middle of the day. And of course the fact thay I encouraged him to go watch the game. Yes, this has been proven. He mother was ill, I booked him a last minute flight, he is youngest of 6, no brothers, his sisters were fighting about who knows what. He was distraught over his mother and overwhelmed by his sisters. He LOVES sports and catching a game at the local family sports bar/restaurant (together, alone, or with the kids - never a problem) at home has been done for many years. So I said, "your Mom is now resting comfortably, why don't you go and find a place to catch this game....." Famous last words. Out of the frying pan into the fire.

H now says he will never set foot inside any sports bar. Whatever!?


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Busy Accountant said:


> This seals the word affair for me...if it still matters. Your H's narrative of the relationship was that he was trying to help her change her life. Usually when one encounters challenges in their personal life, their "charitable" work goes down, not up. So, clearly there was more to this relationship than just benevolence on the part of your H. Did he seriously have no one else to talk to? Or is OW simply who he chose to talk to?


I guess he chose to talk to the OW.

We are opposites in that I have many friends and he has very few. When I asked him why not one of his two male friends, he said that talking to someone far away and never having to deal with them again in person was easier then having to explain all his personal problems to people he is close to. I never understood this line of thinking. He doesn't usually confide in his friends because he says that after the problems are resolved, you still have to deal with them rehashing the same thing.

Now we were able to get most of the text, and none were sexual, mostly her problems and when I became ill, my illness.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

As to your anger and cattiness....go for it! Most AP's are pathetic, if they weren't pathetic, they wouldn't be AP's! Your ego has taken quite a hit and so far, you have had little help from H in putting it back together. Its going to take a long time, and you will likely have to look at each small detail of this relationship, and at every angle. One of my H's AP's said that she had "been successful at everything she tried"...except being a human being!!! I ripped every one of my H's OW's to shreds in his eyes. 

Many WS's "affair down". Sounds like your H did. Affairs are not about attractiveness, they are about how the AP makes the WS feel about themselves. Sounds like your H was in a Knight in Shining Armor (KISA)/Damsel in Distress (DID) relationship. They are quite common in affairs.

I've seen it here on TAM and it was also true in my H's case that the AP's are nothing like what the WS's would normally find attractive in their "other" life. Samantha, my H viewed forgetting to put the garage door down as a character flaw. BUT, his co-worker OW!!! First, H and most other management people were against hiring her to being with, the president of the company did it anyway. When she got there, it quickly became evident that she was incompetent and lied about her depth of knowledge in the field. Normally, H would have turned his back on someone who does this. Not with OW! He came to her rescue and comforted her as she struggle to understand her position right up until the day she was fired. It gets better, they found out that she had falsified company documents, but H continued his relationship with her, letting her cry on his shoulder about how "broken and bruised" she was, the fact that she had her H had to downsize after getting fired and he was her biggest cheerleader as she set up a new business, doing EXACTLY what she failed at when she worked with him. So, this incompetent boob got a pass on all of her faults because she was a MASTER at blowing smoke up my H's a$$. 

I only saw one conversation between them, but it went something like this:

Her: How are you? I hope you are well.
Him: I am great, but how are YOU? Just remember, you are awesome.
Her: You are awesomer.
Him: You are awesomest.
Her: You are awesome infinity.

(Puke). (By the way, they were both in their 50's.)

Just keep working and processing the information you have until you can come up with a narrative about this affair that makes sense, including your H's motives. Right now, he may truly feel it was about the abortion, but I suspect it was way deeper than that.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Busy Accountant said:


> As to your anger and cattiness....go for it! Most AP's are pathetic, if they weren't pathetic, they wouldn't be AP's! Your ego has taken quite a hit and so far, you have had little help from H in putting it back together. Its going to take a long time, and you will likely have to look at each small detail of this relationship, and at every angle. One of my H's AP's said that she had "been successful at everything she tried"...except being a human being!!! I ripped every one of my H's OW's to shreds in his eyes.
> 
> 
> Her: How are you? I hope you are well.
> ...


Oh my this almost made me PUKE! Really, when we (my attorney and I) hired a PI, I didn't sleep for many nights dreading what was going to be discovered. Thank God text were not sexual or lovey dovey. I wouldn't know what to do.....

If only WS knew what they were causing in their spouses. I am not taking mental illness off the table for my H. As this is waaaaay out of character AND doesn't make sense not even to him. To think he had no idea HOW devastating this would be to the both of us. I just don't get it.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Busy Accountant said:


> Her: How are you? I hope you are well.
> Him: I am great, but how are YOU? Just remember, you are awesome.
> Her: You are awesomer.
> Him: You are awesomest.
> Her: You are awesome infinity.


:lol: Puking and laughing at the same time is hard.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Philat said:


> :lol: Puking and laughing at the same time is hard.


WATCH OUT! It may come out your nose!


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Hicks said:


> I don't think it was an affair based, if what you have described is the truth.
> 
> I think it's a mid life crisis. It was an escape from the stress of life. We all have our escapes. A man feeling bad about work wants to be "good" at something.
> 
> ...


That what our "good" counselor said, that he was being terrorized at work and needed an escape and made very poor choices.

Thank you for this advice as to how I can respond when he goes into these "fits". But really when he gets into the zone where he repeats himself, I sometimes cannot get through to him - as if he can't hear me. He has even passed out a few times. This scares me as we have never experienced this before. 

Really this problem seems at times insurmountable but I guess I will take one day at a time.

We will seek more medical or mental health advice.


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

So basically, your husband had a secret friend. There was no language in the texts that could be construed as romantic / sexual / off-color / insulting to you / insulting to your marriage? Basically they could have been with a guy friend, but they were with some stripper he met in a bar.

hmmm...I still can't see why he's so upset (crying/lossing weight), unless he's just making a show of throwing himself on his sword to appease you. 

you sure he didn't delete any fishy texts? were there any gaps in the time between texts?

I thought you asked him to take a polygraph, whatever happened with that?


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

> Originally Posted by *Busy Accountant *
> Her: How are you? I hope you are well.
> Him: I am great, but how are YOU? Just remember, you are awesome.
> Her: You are awesomer.
> ...


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

O.M.G.

Seriously, people, laughing has to win out over puking here.

Barf factor - huge. But really, the gagging passes quickly.

This is *TOO* funny!!

This couldn't be better if you made it up. :smthumbup:

Is there an *"Affair Text Message Hall Of Shame"* this can go in??


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## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

Paladin said:


> So her husband seeking closure for his feelings about the abortion of their child outside of his marriage to his wife somehow falls outside of this definition?
> 
> Its hard sometimes to figure out why there is such a difference in tone when a female is posting this vs when a male is posting this
> 
> ...


I heards a term, I believe it's called "false equivalence" or something? The basic idea is, as you've done, we draw these fictious lines between two situations, and declare them equal in circumstance, and then just draw a broken line between the results. You can't just say, "if the tables were turned, everyone would react differently," like it is a fact, and then posit, "why is that?" Yes, IF your supposition were true, then the "why" would be interesting, but it is a capricious assumption. If we truly restarted this thread, and flipped all the genders, are you sure that's how it would go? Can you realistically even do that? E.G., is a man's guilt over aborting a daughter, considering the dad doesn't personally go through the act of the abortion, and considering the dynamic of father v. daughter, really equivalent, or comparable to a mother aborting a son?

It is a VERY complex discussion, that can't be summed up simply as "if this were different, here's how it'd turn out," and crying hypocrisy (which is what it seemed your implication was).


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

ReidWright said:


> So basically, your husband had a secret friend. There was no language in the texts that could be construed as romantic / sexual / off-color / insulting to you / insulting to your marriage? Basically they could have been with a guy friend, but they were with some stripper he met in a bar.
> 
> hmmm...I still can't see why he's so upset (crying/lossing weight), unless he's just making a show of throwing himself on his sword to appease you.
> 
> ...


He is very upset with himself because (according to him) he had no clue that his secret friendship would have caused such extreme turmoil. If he sees me crying he will immediately fall apart crying and telling me over and over, he can't believe he is the one making me so sad. He says that he loves me and has spent his life loving and protecting me that he would have never ever done anything to cause such sadness. And to think that I may choose leave him is unbearable to him. 

As to the polygraph, he had agreed to take one, but I haven't really done anything towards that. All text and bank records checked out. I was pretty confident about bank statements as I handle all family finances but was nervous about the texts. There were no emails sent. 

There were gaps at the beginning because they were not yet too friendly. When I became ill, inexplicably they began texting more, H claiming he had no one to talk to.

His reason was because he now had to take time off from work, his boss became an even bigger jerk. His mother was dying, he was terrified of what was going on with me and (according to him) had no one to talk to. She by then was working for a group of drs so she was asking her drs advice about my condition!!?? And texting their suggestions to my H.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

hopefulgirl said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> O.M.G.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

This is my honest take on all of this..

I think your husband is a slow dater.. I was like that long ago. 

Basically he is the kind of guy that likes someone but doesn't have the courage to tell them, so he just does nice thing for them until they figure it out. Then he hopes that the other person makes some sort of move. 

I literally had a woman tell me she likes me.. I answered back I like you too. She then had to say NO I really like you.. Then asked a friend of mine who was their to explain it to me. I just wasn't getting it. We never dated btw and another friend of mine ended up marrying her. 

Nonetheless, I do think he liked her but where someone might get to having sex or expressing some sort of real emotions in a few days or even weeks takes your husband MUCH LONGER.. 

But unfortunately for him, you caught him "Early on" so to speak.

Look I can tell you from personal experience. I caught my wife looking to cheat at least 3 times before her last real known affair which ended our marriage.. 

First time month before we were married she was searching someone online.. I don't have a clue if they ever met. Just rug swept it. 

Second time I caught her a few weeks before they were going to meet. It was hard time for me because it was during the 9/11 attacks in NYC.. So I was dealing with 20 hour work days and this.. I found the hotel they were going to meet in and the cloths she was going to wear..

Third time was her emailing an old boyfriend that she actually broke up with to go out with me. I asked her out and she said yes but needed time to break up with her current boyfriend the right way. I waited I think a bit over a month or at least a month.. 

The fourth and final time was just an utter disaster.. 

I do think there were other instances in between though. There is a instance I sort of found out from my mom that my deceased brother seen, but it is of course sketchy now. Nutshell he seen her with someone in the street or in a car.. He might have confronted her, or just made her aware that he seen her.. I don't know.. 

But nonetheless each one was painful, but I always relied on the fact that I never seen her be physical with someone and I was at least much happier knowing it was a EA and not a PA. 

Having been through both I can tell you the PA is much worse.. It might be a no brainer for some, but I am sure that a few will say "No, the EA is the same".. I disagree, Knowing my Ex wanted to suck someones d1ck is just not the same as actually doing it. But whatever.. 

In the end I think you beat him up over this a lot when you guys are alone and him being the type of man he is, just took it way too deep. Again like your past experiences make you go over the top a bit with this. I think that him being called out and seeing what could have happened if he really got caught is making him snap as well. 

Again I am not making light of this. You have a right to be upset and he does have to man up.. 

But you guys *( THE BOTH OF YOU ) * need to decide what you both want out of this. 

Trust me I wanted to kill myself and I had the easy means of doing it, but of course I didn't *( otherwise this is a ghost typing this stuff * spooky*)*. 

He will get over this stuff but I'm telling you that YOU might have to be the bigger person and just suck it up.. Some people are just not that strong for certain things.. 

Look I thought I was until I found out I wasn't. I fought hand to hand against a man with a knife.. I chased men across roof top buildings. I ran towards gun shot as others ran away. 

But nothing, absolutely nothing prepared me for what my Ex wife did. I just didn't see the treachery in my own home.. I just never expected her to be like this and treat me like she did. I get chest pains just recalling it now, 2 years later.. 

You don't think my current Girlfriend doesn't have to deal with my sh1t and nonsense caused by that trauma ? Sadly she does.. After it is all said and done, I thank whomever that she has more common sense then I do when it comes to these sorts of things. I am glad she loves me no matter how crazy I get and trust me I pushed her to her limits and beyond. I can be a real a$$hole when I want to.

So my point again. I think you have done enough investigative work to satisfy your need to know nothing really happen. Your husband spoke to you, this girl spoke to you, Her mom spoke to you. 

I think right now YOU need to be stronger for the both of you and your marriage. You can only hope that one day in the years to come he will turn around and cry one last time and tell you thank you for carrying him through these tough times.. 

I can tell you there will come a time where you will just let this go and move on with your marriage. It just happens one day where you settle in and accept they love you and they made a mistake. Eventually you just internalize some stuff because of your insecurities. 

For me unfortunately after doing that several times its a bit like PTSD.. I was right and didn't go with my instincts.. 

Lessons learned in life right ? 
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

So my simple straight forward suggestion.

Let it go.. Try to minimize it and suck it up.. Be the bigger person here.. You need to carry the weight this time around. It sucks, but it is what it is.. Its cold hard facts and reality, he can't do it.. Maybe he is stronger at other things, but just not this right now.. 

In the end just read all your posts in this thread, they are pretty circular saying the same things. 

And yes the therapist sucks get a new one. I've been through a few and I think I found the right one this time. I needed someone more straight forward and that cut through all the BS..


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Samantha36 said:


> He is very upset with himself because (according to him) he had *no clue that his secret friendship would have caused such extreme turmoil*....
> 
> ...When I became ill, inexplicably they began texting more, H *claiming he had no one to talk to*.
> 
> His reason was because he now had to take time off from work, his boss became an even bigger jerk. His mother was dying, he was terrified of what was going on with me and (according to him) had *no one to talk to*.


These things all point to someone who has poor coping skills and who is very much in denial about a lot of things.

When you have a secret friendship with a stripper for a year and a half and you give her $2k without telling your wife, you claim you have "no clue" it will cause extreme turmoil? What planet is he living on?

When your wife becomes ill or your mother is dying, there are doctors and nurses and hospice professionals who are ALL available to you - chaplains and clergy people, if you are religious - you simply have to ask them. And yes, talking to your own friends about your problems is something most people learn how to do - his finding that difficult is something he needs to work on. And a counselor is an obviously good choice if you need to unburden about your sick wife, dying mother, and jerk of a boss - COMPARED TO A STRIPPER.

My husband started out in a KISA (knight in shining armor) situation too. Sure, HE wasn't intending to have sex with her either. They never INTEND for that, in the beginning. But if the younger person (they're always younger, aren't they?) should happen to be someone who has expressed loneliness, or there is mention of a sexual yearning, or something somehow starts to cross a line - that slippery slope helps things along. The secrecy is all part of THAT game. It could never go there if not for the DECEIT of it all. Your husband SET THAT UP. WITH A STRIPPER. And he had given her a LOT of money. So if under these clandestine circumstances he did NOT have a secret fantasy of her coming on to him, it would be VERY surprising. Why else keep this from you?

Depression may be a clue as to why his thinking is more clouded than usual, but the results are the same. Doing all these things behind your back with a stripper had something to do with sex, even if he hadn't had sex with her YET. He is just in denial about it, even to himself. To absolve himself of the guilt.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Oh one more thing - and I understand it doesn't really make a difference... Just to show how bizarre this is.....


The OW has a serious boyfriend and the boyfriend knows about my H. This is the boyfriend she was seeking advice about when she first met my husband. So I guess I was the only one out of the loop.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Hardtohandle said:


> This is my honest take on all of this..
> 
> I think your husband is a slow dater.. I was like that long ago.
> 
> ...



Thank you, I understand this and will make all effort to be strong. It still sucks that I didn't get to experience any of the fun yet my H is now weak and in need. Therefore, I will try to let it go and be the stronger one. You make sense, so will try my best.

Oh how I wish people would foresee the consequences of their actions!


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

He was going behind YOUR back, meeting with her for a year and a half. Giving her marital assets without your knowledge. Do you think he would think it oh so "wrong" for the stripper to do things with your husband behind the BOYFRIEND'S back?

No, the existence of a boyfriend makes no difference. Your husband may think it means he would NEVER have tried anything because she was "spoken for" - but that doesn't eliminate a deep dark secret fantasy that SHE might try to put her arms around him one day....


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

hopefulgirl said:


> He was going behind YOUR back, meeting with her for a year and a half. Giving her marital assets without your knowledge. Do you think he would think it oh so "wrong" for the stripper to do things with your husband behind the BOYFRIEND'S back?
> 
> No, the existence of a boyfriend makes no difference. Your husband may think it means he would NEVER have tried anything because she was "spoken for" - but that doesn't eliminate a deep dark secret fantasy that SHE might try to put her arms around him one day....


Yuck!


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Samantha36 said:


> Thank you, I understand this and will make all effort to be strong. It still sucks that I didn't get to experience any of the fun yet my H is now weak and in need. Therefore, I will try to let it go and be the stronger one.


I respectfully disagree with this approach. Not with trauma. Letting it go doesn't work. (It only works if you have ice powers - yes, a Frozen reference.) You have a LONG road ahead of you. A lot of healing to do (refer to Glass' book - she describes trauma recovery very well). It's it's not going to be easy. Just because there was no PA doesn't make it something you can "minimize," though your husband would like you to. Your husband was deceiving you for a year and a half, and he committed financial infidelity with this woman to the tune of $2k. This WAS an emotional affair even if he can't call it that yet. I DO agree with the "slow dating" idea - I really think that's a very good way to conceptualize what was going on here, though he can't admit it to himself. 

He was actually deceiving himself, which is why there is this battle over semantics - you need a therapist who specializes in infidelity. Your husband may not come around right away, but a big part of your recovery is going to depend on his ability to grow in terms of empathy. He will have to have greater understanding of how this has wounded you. But in his current state, it's clear that understanding is not likely to come any time soon. He needs treatment for his depression, and you need a really good MC. But you don't have to settle for accepting that he's never going to "get it." Maybe not right now, but don't let him off the hook indefinitely or you two will never be close. Repairing your marriage requires emotional intimacy, and he must be able to "get" the pain he's put you through in order for you two to have a bond that's true and strong on the other side of this.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> He was going behind YOUR back, meeting with her for a year and a half. Giving her marital assets without your knowledge. Do you think he would think it oh so "wrong" for the stripper to do things with your husband behind the BOYFRIEND'S back?
> 
> No, the existence of a boyfriend makes no difference. Your husband may think it means he would NEVER have tried anything because she was "spoken for" - but that doesn't eliminate a deep dark secret fantasy that SHE might try to put her arms around him one day....


As much as it sucks. If nothing happen, nothing happen. There is no fantasy.. Until he admits it.. 

You have to work with the facts here.. Not what we might think could have happen.. 

He screwed up Yes.. But how many people find the hotel receipt in their spouse pants pocket after the fact.. Which makes it worse. At least to me.

Yea we can speculate but we shouldn't be pumping the OPs head with stuff that never happen. 

Again I speak from my own personal experiences of stringing things together that have no reason to be strung together.. I've built a case upon fantasy, mixed up emotions and insecurities with my current G.F. 

I can honestly tell you I fight everyday with the notion that women are nothing but liars.. Its all BS and they just like men and even worse.. If my Exwife could do the things she did to me and even my kids, anyone can do it. 

Fortunately I can still rationalize and tell myself stop being so stupid and yes there are days the stupid side wins over.

I truly failed to believe or accept that someone could love me again.. Those types of thoughts cause nothing but trouble.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

The problem is that this isn't a situation where "nothing happened." It sounds like sex probably didn't happen. 

But a husband met secretly for *a year and a half* with a woman - a stripper, no less - who was not his wife. He confided in a woman who was not his wife. He got emotional support from a woman who was not his wife (when he claims, despite having friends of his own, that had "no one else to talk to"). He gave $2k of marital assets to a woman who was not his wife. These things were all done with INTENT to deceive and KEEP all of this SECRET from his wife. This is far from innocent, and this is not "nothing." This is an emotional affair, and it's betrayal, and it hurts like hell.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> The problem is that this isn't a situation where "nothing happened." It sounds like sex probably didn't happen.
> 
> But a husband met secretly for *a year and a half* with a woman - a stripper, no less - who was not his wife. He confided in a woman who was not his wife. He got emotional support from a woman who was not his wife (when he claims, despite having friends of his own, that had "no one else to talk to"). He gave $2k of marital assets to a woman who was not his wife. These things were all done with INTENT to deceive and KEEP all of this SECRET from his wife. This is far from innocent, and this is not "nothing." This is an emotional affair, and it's betrayal, and it hurts like hell.


:iagree: Nailed it.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> The problem is that this isn't a situation where "nothing happened." It sounds like sex probably didn't happen.
> 
> But a husband met secretly for *a year and a half* with a woman - a stripper, no less - who was not his wife. He confided in a woman who was not his wife. He got emotional support from a woman who was not his wife (when he claims, despite having friends of his own, that had "no one else to talk to"). He gave $2k of marital assets to a woman who was not his wife. These things were all done with INTENT to deceive and KEEP all of this SECRET from his wife. This is far from innocent, and this is not "nothing." This is an emotional affair, and it's betrayal, and it hurts like hell.


Again probably didn't happen.. 

Unless he breaks down and admits to sex or Samantha36 finds proof then it didn't happen.. 

I yet have to hear him trickle truth anything related to only kissing her to lead me in another direction..

It doesn't matter she is a *Stripper*, last I recalled it wasn't illegal to be a stripper in many states.. 

This story wouldn't change if she was a register girl for Walmart would it ? 

I don't personally know any strippers or have any on speed dial or anything like that but I have met a few from friends that dated them and from women I knew that had stripper friends.. Yea they might have had some issues but I've come to learn who doesn't now a days.. Further even they admitted knowing women who also stripped and took in extra money for sex ( aka prostitution ). But then again I know cops who have been arrested and lost their jobs.. 

But being a stripper does not automatically mean your a hooker. Just like being a cop doesn't mean you eat donuts all the time.


He wasn't with her for a year and a half, they met several times during a year and a half.. Again never having sex..

If anything we can blame her husband for being a dimwitted. 

Yes what he did was wrong.. No arguments, hand down.. 

But going by what Samantha36 is saying, if he could be at the point he could kill himself if she left.. I think he has gotten some religion in him. 

I can only go by what Samantha36 says.. 

No sex and he feels remorseful to the point of possible suicide.. 

He fvcked up and just wants to keep beating himself up over it.. 

Samantha36 either needs to roll the dice and leave him and see what happens or fix her marriage.. 

I think at this point if she said honey if you eat this magic sh1t off the floor it will fix everything for us. I am sure he would gobble it up like there was not tomorrow and without hesitation.. 

Heck I didn't have the affair and I would have done exactly that for my Ex-wife.. I wanted to fix my marriage at that time.. I didn't see my Ex was doing me a favor.. 

Back then I was at ground zero, today I am 20,000 feet above the scene looking down..

If this man feels this guilty about what he did, then he clearly does not at this time have the muscle to do the heavy lifting in this relationship.. Samantha36 is going to have to do the work here and hope for the best..

Honestly anyway, when you get down to it. It is on Samantha36 shoulders anyways.. I mean what does her husband have to do ? Just be transparent and be loving and take the verbal beating she is going to give him when she has a trigger.. It seems he was transparent long before this in many areas of their lives.. It seems he was and is very loving.. Samantha36 yet has to complain about their marriage or their relationship.. 

Again like myself I can relate because the marriage was good with no issues, that is what throws you for a loop when you get broadsided like this.. Because to you everything was fine.. No issues.. So why should this happen ?.. Who knows.. 

So in the end Samantha36 is going to need to think for him and her because right now he is lacking any common sense.. 

Again hopefully months down the line he will realize what a great woman he has for helping through all of this and understanding what an a$$ he is and was still willing to stay with him.

These are the things you do for a family. You make sacrifices you would not normally make. You make choices you normally wouldn't.. That is the whole point of being a family.. 

You don't throw away a marriage for something like this.. At least for what I am reading here..


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Samantha36 said:


> I thought about this again and have changed my mind. No I don't think it would have made a difference if he told me because I would not have been comfortable with helping her - even together - so this proposal would have been rejected.


exactly the point we were trying to make when talking about this angle of it. Had he brought it to your attention, this would have stopped dead in its tracks and you would not be spending time fixing the damage this caused in addition to all the other issues that were there before he did this.



Samantha36 said:


> ...mother was ill, I booked him a last minute flight, he is youngest of 6, no brothers, his sisters were fighting about who knows what. He was distraught over his mother and overwhelmed by his sisters. He LOVES sports and catching a game at the local family sports bar/restaurant (together, alone, or with the kids - never a problem) at home has been done for many years.


Again, and as much as some people want to deny it, if the gender roles were reversed, the quoted text would be hammered at as justification for an EA with some insisting that sex was involved.

At the end of the day, he chose a strangers company over yours, and kept it hidden from you. I constantly get the feeling that he is trying to make this about himself and not you.




Samantha36 said:


> ...I guess I was the only one out of the loop.


That is the core of the issue. As tempting as it is for some to blame this on a mid-life crisis, a tortured soul (lets not forget that terminating a pregnancy involves both spouses, and she was emotionally impacted by the event as well, yet she did not choose to confide in a stranger about it and keep it hidden from her husband), or whatever other excuses people are throwing around. 

His inability to *actually* admit and accept his responsibility for his actions, and that is a very different thing from him saying he has done so, is a major problem.

The pathology of it is certainly understandable, but does not change the facts. The OP was deeply hurt by his actions, his actions were way out of line for a person in a marriage, the OP needs certain things from him to heal and move forward in order to fix the rest of the marriage, and he is unwilling to do that for her at the moment.

Sam,

Seeking out a different counselor and having him see a psychiatrist to get on some anti-depressants are all priority actions IMO. Do keep us posted when you can.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Hardtohandle said:


> As much as it sucks. If nothing happen, nothing happen. There is no fantasy.


Sure there is a fantasy. I am going to apologize to Samantha because this is going to be succinct.
You said facts cool I agree:
He fantasized it was his aborted daughter.
He fantasized money would absolve him of his guilt and grief.
He fantasized he was saving the unborn daughter.

The repercussions? He lied and now she has fantasies, but they are negative and called "mind movies" on TAM. No, all fantasies are not positive.

Yes, stripping isn't illegal. The negative stigma attached to them isn't illegal either. Should we stereotype? Nope. Should we profile? Nope. Has the message been passed that strippers are hookers? Yep. Nope, it doesn't mean all, but people will believe the worst, when things are hidden for over a year with a sudden confession.

I think this issue would be less, if her profession was different.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

I'm not taking it quite as far as phillybeffandswiss suggests many people do because I do not believe all strippers are hookers, but let's face it - stripping is all about getting people sexually aroused, and lap dances (which I don't think all strippers do - though never having gone into a strip club I can't say for sure) would fall into the category of doing work in the "sex industry." 

So her line of work becomes an issue because it takes place in a sexually charged environment, and she is a person who is known to be comfortable taking off all of her clothes - THESE are almost certainly things that contributed to his decision not to tell Samantha about her initially and why he CONTINUED to keep this relationship a secret from her. 

All of his justifications about not having someone to talk to are just ridiculous - who is he trying to kid? He was doing a Knight In Shining Armor (KISA) routine with a stripper. Yes, there is no "evidence" (so far) that he had a secret hope she'd make a move, but giving her money and confiding in her about his worries are all evidence of being a "slow dater" (great term, by the way) - this was an emotional affair that he was keeping secret ON PURPOSE. 

The secret hope, I believe, was that at some point she'd see his furrowed brow and think, "oh, you poor man - I hate to see you worry so - I think I may know how to ease your mind...." Blech. He knew she was a stripper and her clothes come off easily and that definitely DID figure into why he didn't tell Samantha - just in CASE they might come off one day for him! There is just no other reason for him NOT to tell her about this woman.

As for her being the same age as the child who was aborted and he was "saving her" - I think that's a red herring. The baby could have been a boy. This is as lame as the idea that he had nobody to talk to when the man has friends of his own. He is trying as hard as he can to bend his brain in all sorts of directions to avoid that place where the truth lies: he was emotionally involved with this girl and was secretly hoping for more, but because he is racked with guilt (and that much is a GOOD thing) it didn't get that far.

Because of his depression, I was reminded of one of the situations Shirley Glass describes in her book - people who turn to affairs because they are "running on empty." She says that the "drive toward excitement can mask underlying depression, numbness, or emptiness." She also says, "People who are running on empty may unconsciously seek an adrenaline high as a way to escape from an internal void or external stressors. An affair can provide an oasis in the midst of an arid desert or a refuge in a stormy sea. The quest for extramarital excitement can be an attempt to 'fix' an internal problem, such as boredom, low self-esteem, or existential angst."

I do think he sounds like an emotional wreck who needs medication and who isn't capable of much insight in the near term. Which makes it that much tougher on Samantha


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> I'm not taking it quite as far as phillybeffandswiss suggests many people do because I do not believe all strippers are hookers, but let's face it - stripping is all about getting people sexually aroused, and lap dances (which I don't think all strippers do - though never having gone into a strip club I can't say for sure) would fall into the category of doing work in the "sex industry
> 
> So her line of work becomes an issue because it takes place in a sexually charged environment, and she is a person who is known to be comfortable taking off all of her clothes - THESE are almost certainly things that contributed to his decision not to tell Samantha about her initially and why he CONTINUED to keep this relationship a secret from her.


This is exactly what I said, buy I used less words. Yes, I even said "not all."
LOL.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

How are you doing Samantha?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

"In time" is with in a few weeks or months. She's having problems because it was basically a year and a half. Almost the same length of time as my wife's EA. I do scoff at the people saying "you have decades why ruin it over this?" She isn't being helped, that is why and it is that simple. Sometimes I wonder if my wife is sincere, but she admits it was wrong when I have a bad day. No, she didn't at first, but she read Shirley Glass, she fudged her test, we sat down and I answered the questions using her texts and she realized how bad it looked to me. She realized it didn't matter if she believed he was really "just a friend," if she wanted the marriage to continue she had to swallow her pride. Yes, I do believe she thinks they were just friends and it isn't as bad as I think. She no longer relates that position to me with her actions or words.

I understand why it is eating her up, even with proof and his words. As the betrayed, you start nitpicking:
Days.
Your wok schedule.
Over time. 
Missing time. 
Unrecognized phone numbers.
Random Emails.
Etc.

I've learn to let most of it go, but it does surface. The thing is, my wife shows remorse and doesn't do the crap this idiot does. It is insidious and when you don't accept blame, it makes it worse.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

jj123456 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> The problem you have, is asking yourself, would this have gone further if OW had initiated it?
> 
> ...


Thank you! 

After seeing the texts, I feel certain it would not have gone beyond platonic friends even if she initiated it. However, the secrets and deceit is what is driving me up the walls.

My H is shocked absolutely shocked of the damages he's caused.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

We've had a few reasonable days and some nights where we actually got some sleep!

My IC has suggested that I let my H's IC know what is going on. She feels that he may be incapable or resistant to letting his counselor know exactly what is going on with his mental and physical health.

I will take the advice given regarding my easing up on the condition that he gets his diabetes under control, start eating, filling the rx for antidepressants, and whatever else his physician feels he needs.

I read and reread the advice given and have decided to be the stronger one here. I will for now do the "heavy lifting" and hope for the best. I know he loves me and I know he didn't touch her, so will work from there. Still am extremely hurt and depressed but as I have already stated, you folks have been a tremendous help in giving me some clarity.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Well then, good luck. Just remember, you can let it go, but do not feel guilty because he ruined your trust. You'll have some bad day, but they'll lessen.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Another thing....

If this wasn't so sad, it would be funny

One of the first thing my H said regarding this is that though he knew what he was doing was wrong, he likened it to " Big Brother" program. He has done this program for years with middle school boys. He meets with them during lunch and talks to them and encourages them and also provide some financial support. There is an option for meeting the families if both sides agree and we have done that a few times.

So he says to me 8 months ago, that though he knew secrets were wrong, he justified it on his mind that it was just like the big brother program.

Huh???????? 

BTW, Due to reasons having nothing to do with what H has done, we will no longer participate in this program. Topic for another day.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Samantha36 said:


> After seeing the texts, I feel certain it would not have gone beyond platonic friends even if she initiated it. However, the secrets and deceit is what is driving me up the walls.
> 
> My H is shocked absolutely shocked of the damages he's caused.


Here's the thing about EA's: the slippery slope is SLIPPERY. You may feel certain it would not have gone beyond platonic, and even your husband says he "feels" certain, but again you have to come back to the secrecy question. If there was nothing to hide, WHY ON EARTH hide it from you?? Because there was that sexual "tinge" to the whole thing - a very iffy, vague, hidden even from himself because he felt so guilty (that's compartmentalizing), exciting possibility that at some point it COULD cross a line.

My husband is horrified that he let his helping the OW cross over into talking to her about personal things and then crossing further still to having sex with her. He thought he'd NEVER do something like that - just like your husband. 

Never say never....

Though he was already dealing with some health issues, my H experienced some added physical symptoms after D-Day - the stress and anxiety and guilt can make someone prone to physical manifestations of the mental anguish. Which is good, in that you know someone really feels badly about what they've done when they suffer in this way. But what I'm suggesting is that your distressed husband may also be struggling with the fact that he STILL hasn't faced the truth about this "slow dating" situation - his deceit and keeping all this from you was most likely because of the "down the road potential sex" aspect of this. 

Is there any other realistic explanation for his keeping his gradually deepening relationship with her a secret from you? (As well as giving her a LOT of money?)

His health - physical and mental - will be affected if he can't be honest with himself, and with you. The health and healing of your marriage will be affected as well - not to mention YOUR healing, which is no small part of this! A good MC who KNOWS about infidelity, his getting treatment for his depression, and his reading Shirley Glass' book will help. Yes, you need to be the strong one for now, but I think both of you will eventually need to face the slippery slope aspect of this, how his deceitful behavior for a year and a half was a serious threat to your marriage, and the true reason behind his keeping the relationship and the financial infidelity from you.


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## Busy Accountant (Mar 15, 2013)

Hi Samantha

Even after 2.5 years in R, I still find insight into my own situation. I think the concept of "slow dater" is a strong possibility with my husband as well. Almost fits him to a T. There are other reasons I believe that my H's affairs did not turn sexual. First, all three OW's were out of town so the A's were conducted via email, text and phone. HE saw one OW occasionally, and another only twice in a year and a half. The third, he was never in her presence. To the best of my knowledge there was never any "sexting" although there was flirting. There was clear infatuation, but never any direct discussions of feelings. I think that a slow dater would have a difficult time turning a "friendship" into something more when they are not in person. 

Also, with an EA, there is an emotional narrative that goes along with the affair. There are thoughts about the relationship itself, and both parties to the affair. It could be that the narrative excludes sex at the onset. For my H, he had two of the three women so high up on pedestals that moving the relationship to a sexual one would actually debase them. I see this as a real possibility with your H. His view of OW as a stand in for a daughter likely kept him at arms length for a while. But in all cases, it only lasts for a while. As Hopeful says, its a slippery slope. Had your H and my H continued into to a sexual affair, their likely response would have been "it just happened" as if they had no control over the outcome. Yet, they had been setting up the affair for a long time. Take a look on Youtube at Mark Sanford's confession. Notice his description of his relationship with his AP.

I have read your other threads. I know that you have a nagging feeling about OW's intentions. I think her attempt at friending your H on Facebook is the smoking gun. Why would she do this after 18 months of secrecy? She clearly knew that the relationship spelt trouble for your H because she asked him not to disclose it to you once he requested NC. She was trying to "out" him, Samantha. And, your H's confession may not have been motivated by the "right thing to do" rather by his fear that he was about to be discovered.

Finally, your H's focus has been on what his intentions were. He didn't "intend" to hurt you. He didn't anticipate the hurt it would cause. Its continuing to deflect responsibility. At some point, he has to deal with what happened, not what he intended to happen. Take this position outside of the affair for a minute. If one of your children drove the family car 60 mph in a 35 and smashed it into a brick wall (no injuries of course) would you or he accept "I didn't intend to smash up the car". The answer of course is no, you would not let him/her off on their intentions, rather the actions themselves. I have found during my R that to draw a parallel outside of the affair is an effective way to look at a point with less emotion. This may be helpful for you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Yeah. A platonic friendship. Until one day you find yourself about to have unprotected, PIV sex with your "friend" and you think: OMG! :wtf: am I doing? 

And yes, I know this from my own experience.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Busy Accountant said:


> Finally, your H's focus has been on what his intentions were. He didn't "intend" to hurt you. He *didn't anticipate the hurt it would cause*. Its *continuing to deflect responsibility*. At some point, he has to deal with what happened, not what he intended to happen. Take this position outside of the affair for a minute. If one of your children *drove the family car 60 mph in a 35 and smashed it into a brick wall* (no injuries of course) would you or he accept "I didn't intend to smash up the car". The answer of course is no, you would not let him/her off on their intentions, rather the actions themselves. I have found during my R that to draw a parallel outside of the affair is an effective way to look at a point with less emotion. This may be helpful for you.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

My concern for you after reading your posts is that he is now made this all about him. Crying, not eating? It sounds like he's deflecting R away from your hurt and healing to him.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

soccermom2three said:


> My concern for you after reading your posts is that he is now made this all about him. Crying, not eating? It sounds like he's deflecting R away from your hurt and healing to him.


Quite possibly. 

Or that he realises he acted like a complete idiot and has wrecked everything that he valued and hurt people he cared about.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Not to make excuses, but the deflection may not be intentional: mental health issues can complicate these situations. My husband falls into that category, so I understand how that works. I want to be clear that I don't see a mental health diagnosis as an excuse. But it can be a pre-existing thing, or it can be brought on or exacerbated by the stress of guilt, and seeing the pain in a BS. 

In a way, there's something to be said for post D-Day "suffering" because it indicates a conscience and an awareness that you've done something really wrong - even if your awareness was pretty sucky before that point. 

In Samantha's husband's case, I think he still lacks a lot in the awareness department, but he's at least he's been hit smack in the face with the part about how horrendously destructive his behavior was. He realizes now that what he did could have completely destroyed his marriage, and if not for the kind and understanding nature of his wife, he could be in the middle of divorce proceedings now.

I don't wish mental health problems on anybody - it was hard to see my husband getting worse before his affair, and he made the mistake of weaning himself off his medication on his own (which is when it went physical; I don't think that's a coincidence), and it's hard to see him when he still has difficult days (even back on medication, he's not 100%). I've had to be the strong one at times during our R, too, so I know it's not fair. Life isn't.

But like Samantha's husband, there's a lot more to him than the affair: my H has done a LOT of good in his life, for me, for family, and for many, many people beyond our family. My H's affair was totally out of character. It was an anomaly, and even he is horrified by what he did. 

Our road is rough, for sure, but we've been proud of them before for being good men who have done many good things. When they betray us AND have mental health problems, it's a real test. But if they show remorse and take their medication and do the work, and if there is a lot of love, there is hope for healing.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

So we made it through another week.....

H has appts in 2 weeks with mental health person and his general physician. We are both in IC and MC.

Question - It has been almost 9 months since H confessed. If H is doing what he can (remorseful, apologetic, transparent, loving etc) yet I still am in the exact place I was 9 months ago, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN??

If nothing is improving within me, and crying and despairing has not lessened, would a separation be more helpful, IOW would these horrible feelings go away?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

It means that the focus has been on him and his feelings, and the fact that he hasn't taken full responsibility for what this was and the fact that there was secrecy and fantasy surrounding it. You don't trust that this won't happen again. Seriously, he's crying and not eating so you have to tiptoe around him for fear of upsetting him. At some point the focus has to be on you.

And some people just simply can't move past a trust breach, maybe you're one of them. It doesn't mean your marriage is over but it could mean you'll just never look at him the same and will never trust him completely.

A separation might be helpful if for no other reason than you won't have to tiptoe around his feelings, but expect him to go to pieces because everything is still about him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I also think the focus has been far too much on him. He can't truly face what he did - witness the emotional breakdowns and necessity for semantic baby steps.

In my opinion, when he can man up enough to be able to admit that what he did wasn't, at its core, altruistic AND that he has always in his heart of hearts known that it wasn't altruistic, then he might be able to move forward. 

And once he has done that, then you might be able to move forward as well.

People here get stuck in limbo when they don't have the truth. There are many kinds of truth. You may feel like you have some truth about WHAT he did, but he can't be honest about WHY he did it. He can't be honest to himself and definitely not to you.

People don't want to think of themselves as bad people. Your WH sounds tortured by the reality of this potential self-image. No matter how he slices it, though, he betrayed you and your marriage. He needs to take a cleansing breath, admit it deep in his soul, and accept that your future is now uncertain because of it. If he starts really owning not just what he has done, but why he did it, you might be able to focus on your own reactions and feelings.

Just my .02.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

And if my H really had a fantasy of it becoming physical then that now further disturbs me.

She does not fit the image of a stripper. She is not only unattractive, she also, from speaking with her sound childish with a low IQ. H confirms this and claims that's why he felt sorry for her. 

So if he liked her that way, what does that say about his attraction towards me as she would be my opposite.

Not sure how to say this, but my H loves a good looking and intelligent woman. She cannot possibly be that person.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Your husband has manipulated you to the position of bad guy who needs to take care of him the victim. He precipitated this crisis and he continues doing so. He continues to be selfish and has cleverly taken the focus from his need to atone making you care for him. 

I think being strong for him is exactly what you have been doing for 9 months. That's why you are stuck. He is not helping you heal. How much longer should you give to him? Better yet, why are you taking care of him? Time to change. You need to take care of yourself first. 

The person who is your husband now is a selfish, cruel and manipulative drama queen. He has done something deceptive and making you pay. He has abandoned you when you need him the most. You have to decide if you want to buy his deception or not. 

Separation sounds like a good self-protective move. Take yourself out of the drama which is not of you doing. Let him hit rock bottom. Maybe he will see how selfish he is and how much his self-destruction further hurts you. You can stay with this new selfish unrepentant man who delights in causing turmoil or not. 

That's how I see it. You are being blackmailed by his threats of virtual suicide. Take control of you own healing your husband does not care enough to do it. Tell him to get himself together. When he proves to you he deserves your love and is ready to truly admit his many transgressions, he can seek you out. His transgression include the emotional blackmail and stubborn refusal to atone. 

Stop taking care of him. He will pick up the slack when his manipulation stops working.


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

Samantha36 said:


> She does not fit the image of a stripper. She is not only unattractive, she also, from speaking with her sound childish with a low IQ. H confirms this and claims that's why he felt sorry for her.
> 
> So if he liked her that way, what does that say about his attraction towards me as she would be my opposite.
> 
> Not sure how to say this, but my H loves a good looking and intelligent woman. She cannot possibly be that person.


But still, someone paid her to take her clothes off, there must be something there. Maybe you've only seen her casual photos, not when she's all made up.

maybe her youth made up for her unattractiveness. or he was getting off on the secrecy of it. or she was the only opportunity he had (probably not a lot of young girls willing to talk to the old man, right?)

if you still can't get passed that your husband had a secret non-sexual friend, maybe it's just because you still don't believe him.

get him that polygraph. $500 can buy some peace of mind, maybe put some questions to rest for good.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

People are attracted to all sorts of people. Affairing down seems to be the norm rather than the exception.

But let's say for the sake of argument that he would never have been attracted to her physically. He was nonetheless attracted to her in other ways, certainly enough to carry on an emotional affair with her secretly for a not insignificant amount of time. This puts her in competition with you for his emotions and heart. This is a betrayal that he consciously decided to pursue.

If he can't own this without having an ongoing existential crisis, then he has a very unrealistic image of himself. He did this thing. He lied and broke his vows. He did not forsake all others. What he did was so serious that he may have killed his marriage. He broke your heart.

Just because someone doesn't act on the physical end of an affair, doesn't mean he can't betray at a relationship-threatening level.

If he can stop the denial, you would at least have some common understanding to move forward with. You don't have that & you are stuck.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Re: Who's right??*



Samantha36 said:


> And if my H really had a fantasy of it becoming physical then that now further disturbs me.
> 
> She does not fit the image of a stripper. She is not only unattractive, she also, from speaking with her sound childish with a low IQ. H confirms this and claims that's why he felt sorry for her.
> 
> ...


It is unfortunately very common for betrayed spouses to play the "compare the OM/OW to me" game. All it does is drive you crazy. The fact that this girl is stupid and unattractive probably signaled that she was easy pickings to your husband. She could have been 4 foot 2 inches tall with one arm and no teeth, the fact that she was forbidden fruit is what drove the attraction. 

As far as you being unable to move forward, others here have mentioned, and I agree, the main reason is your husband making this about him, and not you. You are responsible for trying to heal as much as you can on your own, but that task is impossible if your husband does not take responsibility for what he did. We have talked about the difference between saying you own it, and actually owning it. You will make progress by leaps and bounds if he actually does what is required of him to reconcile with you. Once he has his mental health appointments out of the way, and he starts taking medication, you need to shift focus to yourself and make sure your needs are being addressed.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

9 months? You know why, you feel he is still holding something back and his actions aren't helping. This is why people say they need to do the heavy lifting. You are doing everything he requested, you are trying to come to terms with his actions, you are going to counseling and he seems to be doing the exact opposite.

I know some see the crying as guilt, I see it as pouting and trying eschew talking with you fully about the issue. I bet you back off when he stops eating, starts crying and withdraws? You might have to treat him like a child. When my kids pulled that crap, they went to bed with out supper, didn't watch TV and missed whatever the rest of the family was doing. It rarely lasted more than an hour, unless my wife freaked out. She eventually learned to let them pout. It pretty much completely stopped.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

ReidWright said:


> But still, someone paid her to take her clothes off, there must be something there. Maybe you've only seen her casual photos, not when she's all made up.
> 
> maybe her youth made up for her unattractiveness. or he was getting off on the secrecy of it. or she was the only opportunity he had (probably not a lot of young girls willing to talk to the old man, right?)
> 
> ...


I do believe it was non-sexual and he has been investigated. But I just cannot get past his masterful acting in behaving as normal as can be while he was hiding a secret relationship. I can't seem to look at him the same way.

I bet if our marriage was troubled this would be easier to accept. But we both agree that our marriage was very good. That is of course till I found out.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Has he started on the medication? That can take a few weeks to kick in.

The problem is that while he may be "working on" figuring out why he kept this from you, he hasn't faced it and "owned" it yet. As I've said before, there is NO good reason for him to keep an 18 month relationship with a stripper secret from you EXCEPT for the sexual tinge to it, the (yes maybe remote, but it was there) possibility of sex down the line, slow dater that he is. And when someone is depressed, they are even more likely to "affair down" so the affair partner is far less attractive and/or intelligent than the spouse - this is common even in the absence of depression, but the lowered self-esteem makes the low standards even more likely. (And do not waste any time comparing yourself to her; this whole thing is ALL about deficits in HIM, and nothing at ALL about YOU, who he is damn lucky to have in his life!!)

Hard to say how much of his not facing the truth is because he can't (untreated mental health issues) and how much is because he won't (as alte Dame put it, "People don't want to think of themselves as bad people"). Yes, emotionally he's a mess, and you've been more than kind and understanding and patient, but your patience, understandably, is wearing thin. When do you get your turn to be the focus, to be taken care of? After all, YOU'RE the wounded party here!!

I think that separations generally tend to serve as a stepping stone to divorce. An overnight at a hotel or a weekend away, however - a "break" for you - is something different; it would be a chance to get away from his drama, because his focus is so much on himself and his mental mess. You might feel refreshed if you took some time to not worry about housework and taking care of him and his needs - just pamper yourself and be in different surroundings, where people are polite to you and you can relax, maybe read or shop, whatever. Take care of yourself - you deserve it.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

Wow, lots of great advice to think on.

I am trying to understand. He has accepted blame for everything he has done. He has apologize profusely. He realizes this may spell the end of our marriage. We have also agree that as a poster suggested that "he betrayed me with another woman".

So if these things are done but I am still stuck, what to do next? As in what ought the next step be? In other words, the suggestions have been to take care of myself. How do I do that? 

Should I ask him to move out?


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

hopefulgirl said:


> Has he started on the medication? That can take a few weeks to kick in.
> 
> The problem is that while he may be "working on" figuring out why he kept this from you, he hasn't faced it and "owned" it yet. As I've said before, there is NO good reason for him to keep an 18 month relationship with a stripper secret from you EXCEPT for the sexual tinge to it, the (yes maybe remote, but it was there) possibility of sex down the line, slow dater that he is. And when someone is depressed, they are even more likely to "affair down" so the affair partner is far less attractive and/or intelligent than the spouse - this is common even in the absence of depression, but the lowered self-esteem makes the low standards even more likely. (And do not waste any time comparing yourself to her; this whole thing is ALL about deficits in HIM, and nothing at ALL about YOU, who he is damn lucky to have in his life!!)
> 
> ...


No he hasn't started his medication yet. He has appts in 2 weeks because the prescription antidepressant he got was from a doctor that has not even met him. And because I lost it 

You have some really good suggestions.

There are two things I have learned from this is - 

A). Must always be vigilant. I thought after so many years of peace, we would never ever have had to entertain this type of crisis.

B). I owe a debt of gratitude to people I have never met - thank you all.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Besides the words that come out of his mouth, how has he shown with actions he is remorseful? Feeling sorry for himself doesn't count


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

vi_bride04 said:


> Besides the words that come out of his mouth, how has he shown with actions he is remorseful? Feeling sorry for himself doesn't count



I don't know how else. I mean he was a great husband for many years, so he is continuing behaving that way and paying extra attention to me and basically doing anything I ask. Other than that I don't know what else he should be doing.

And as far as being transparent, he always was but unfortunately for me, I wasn't paying attention. Now I do. 

Oh, he has asked repeatedly for us to go away together but I haven't been able to bring myself to do that yet. And I don't want him to touch me....other than maybe a friendly hug.

Any suggestions?


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

And though he takes 100% responsibility for what he's done, he does believe his job situation is the great contributor. He is looking for another job. He's had one interview that he claimed went very well but they ultimately went with someone else. So still seeking new employment.

Perhaps once he is on medication he might interview better.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Samantha36 said:


> But I just cannot get past his masterful acting in behaving as normal as can be while he was hiding a secret relationship.


Could this be key? He is obviously extremely good at having his cake and eating it, too. When he wanted to, the act was perfect. He was just the 'normal' him throughout the A.

And now suddenly his heart is out there on his sleeve. He is overcome with honest emotion. But this time it isn't acting. Or is it? How can you really tell?

I think the more convincing the deception, the deeper the trust issues go.

Try to think of what he would have to do to reset your trust meter, even a little.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

alte Dame said:


> Could this be key? He is obviously extremely good at having his cake and eating it, too. When he wanted to, the act was perfect. He was just the 'normal' him throughout the A.
> 
> And now suddenly his heart is out there on his sleeve. He is overcome with honest emotion. But this time it isn't acting. Or is it? How can you really tell?
> 
> ...



That's the thing, I just don't know what else he can do to have so I can move in a positive direction. I do not believe he is acting at all. He is really overcome with grief with the realization of what he has done. I do believe he is sincere in his remorse and breakdowns. I do believe he would never ever repeat such deception. I know never say never!

That's why I know this problem here is mine. Just don't know how to stop this constant emotional turmoil. I would like to be able to function again. 

Just wondering if moving on would stop what I am feeling.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Samantha36 said:


> That's the thing, I just don't know what else he can do to have so I can move in a positive direction. I do not believe he is acting at all. He is really overcome with grief with the realization of what he has done. I do believe he is sincere in his remorse and breakdowns. I do believe he would never ever repeat such deception. I know never say never!
> 
> That's why I know this problem here is mine. Just don't know how to stop this constant emotional turmoil. I would like to be able to function again.
> 
> Just wondering if moving on would stop what I am feeling.


My suggestion is to take 2 weeks to do other things in your life. Regular things. Things away from TAM - which, I know, is a trigger for staying in a dark place. TAM can be helpful, but also keep you from moving forward.

A marriage this long and successful deserves time for consideration. Give it that time - take a break from putting pressure on yourself for making any decisions. 

Dive into a hobby - see friends, etc for awhile. Don't talk about the issue for 2 weeks. Then revisit and regroup.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Samantha36 said:


> Just wondering if moving on would stop what I am feeling.


No, it really doesn't stop what you're feeling. You're stuck with the pain, until time and focusing elsewhere, and better life experiences to replace the bad memories, does its work.

Moving on can potentially make you feel better because he's no longer in your life as a reminder. But it's not like you're going to forget about this instantly. And, I don't recall how long you've been married, but it's not like you're going to forget him and his role in your life, either. He just won't be there for you to _see _and deal with on a daily basis.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

norajane said:


> No, it really doesn't stop what you're feeling. You're stuck with the pain, until time and focusing elsewhere, and better life experiences to replace the bad memories, does its work.
> 
> Moving on can potentially make you feel better because he's no longer in your life as a reminder. But it's not like you're going to forget about this instantly. And, I don't recall how long you've been married, but it's not like you're going to forget him and his role in your life, either. He just won't be there for you to _see _and deal with on a daily basis.


Married 27 yrs.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Samantha36 said:


> Married 27 yrs.


Well, in that case, I'd tell you that sometimes people screw up, even the best of people. We're all human, and sometimes we screw up, sometimes really badly. Weigh your 27 years together against this screw up, and consider whether you want to do the hard work to reconcile or whether you want to start over with someone else (or no one else). Neither path is an easy one. It just depends on whether you can't stand him anymore, or whether you can't stand the idea of being without him even more.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> Could this be key? He is obviously extremely good at having his cake and eating it, too. When he wanted to, the act was perfect. He was just the 'normal' him throughout the A.
> 
> And now suddenly his heart is out there on his sleeve. He is overcome with honest emotion. But this time it isn't acting. Or is it? How can you really tell?
> 
> ...


He acted normal because he was being normal. He did not realise he was having an affair, and is still in denial, somewhat, about that.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> He acted normal because he was being normal. He did not realise he was having an affair, and is still in denial, somewhat, about that.


But.....he knew he was doing something wrong, thus the secrecy, so is that normal?

Anyway, one tool that I often find useful is to ask yourself where you see your life 5 years from now. If what you envisage is a healed, happy life with your WH, then try to make some peace with that and work towards it. If you don't see yourself that way, well, that's perhaps a cue to begin thinking practically about the alternatives.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> But.....he knew he was doing something wrong, thus the secrecy, so is that normal?
> 
> Anyway, one tool that I often find useful is to ask yourself where you see your life 5 years from now. If what you envisage is a healed, happy life with your WH, then try to make some peace with that and work towards it. If you don't see yourself that way, well, that's perhaps a cue to begin thinking practically about the alternatives.


Knowing something is wrong and knowing your spouse would be upset about it are two different things.

My wife knew I was having an affair (a revenge affair, true) way, *way* before I knew I was having an affair. Sounds weird? Yes, but it's perfectly true.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Re: Who's right??*



Samantha36 said:


> And though he takes 100% responsibility for what he's done, he does believe his job situation is the great contributor...


It has been said a few times in this thread, taking full responsibility for betrayal, and simply saying you are doing so, are two very different things. If I was to restate what you wrote, and I was a DS, it would sound like this:

"I know I messed up BUT.....<job stress, etc etc etc justification>"

I would be called out on that in an instance. 

It does sound like you need some space, so maybe go do something fun for a few days, like a spa or something. Once he is medicated, revisit the issue.


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## 129362 (Apr 8, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> Knowing something is wrong and knowing your spouse would be upset about it are two different things.
> 
> My wife knew I was having an affair (a revenge affair, true) way, *way* before I knew I was having an affair. Sounds weird? Yes, but it's perfectly true.


This is exactly what H has been saying these months. Over and over that he knew what he was doing was wrong, no doubt about that, but didn't know I would be so upset.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Samantha36 said:


> This is exactly what H has been saying these months. Over and over that he knew what he was doing was wrong, no doubt about that, but didn't know I would be so upset.


I came to the realisation that I was having an affair right at the moment when I was about to have unprotected PIV sex with the OW.

I didn't have sex with her, by the way.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Regardless of how man years you have been married, for every relevant positive comment mentioned there is an equally relevant negative one. 

Take a break from TAM, so you can stop feeling like a Yo-Yo.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Samantha36 said:


> This is exactly what H has been saying these months. Over and over that he knew what he was doing was wrong, no doubt about that, but didn't know I would be so upset.


Him not knowing the depth of the devastation his actions would cause you may have been true at the time he started the relationship with this woman, many truly remorseful fWS are shocked when they realize these things too, but his continued unwillingness to fully acknowledge and accept how much this hurt you, and his role in helping you fix it, is not something that can be excused or justified. 

If it stands this way, it will be at least in some part rug sweeping and you will be exponentially more likely to have a repeat of this, or something similar, at some point in the future.

Even if at his very core he does not understand why you feel the way that you do, his stated desire to reconcile with you and save the marriage should give him the ability to accept how you feel at face value and do what you need to heal and move forward.

Right now, from what you have told us, that includes accepting that this was an affair, anything short of that at this point in time will not help you. Now given all that, you may come to a point where you will not need that from him, but the longer this takes to fix, the more likely the possibility of resentment setting in becomes. Resentment is poison to a relationship, and usually a terminal one to an attempt at R.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

He needs to *really* accept 100% responsibility.

No ifs, no buts.


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