# Boundaries and Codependency



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Doing some reflecting on my codependency and boundaries, I'd like to bounce some stuff off some other people.

So as a people pleaser I tend to do things out of obligation. I probably went a little far on the spectrum but I tried making a conscious decision not to do anything that I really didn't want to do in my last relationship.

One time I was at my girlfriend's house and I was sitting on her couch. We were getting ready to leave in about 10-15 minutes and I was relaxed and feeling good. She said, "Hey before we go can you move these chairs upstairs?"

For whatever reason I really didn't feel like it, and so I told her, "I don't really feel like it to be honest. Maybe later?"

She got really mad about that and I saw some validity in her comments. Basically her response was that she couldn't understand why I wouldn't want to help her and that I was being selfish. That sometimes being in a relationship means doing things you don't necessarily WANT to do but you do it anyway.

Now the last part is kind of hogwash to me, because there were clearly times in the relationship before and after that where I was clearly doing something that I didn't really want to do, but did it because I wanted to please my partner (ie dishes, taking out trash, etc.). However, at this specific moment in time, my desire to not move the chairs outstripped my desire to please her.

So I ask you people of TAM, how do you feel about this? Was my refusal to move the chairs a problem? Should I have done it even though I didn't want to? Am I just immature? Was this a crossing of my personal boundary that should have been a red flag?


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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

No because you said maybe later, what was the urgency in moving them right when you were getting ready to leave?

I just don't see a problem with telling later you would do it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

COguy said:


> So I ask you people of TAM, how do you feel about this? Was my refusal to move the chairs a problem? Should I have done it even though I didn't want to? Am I just immature? Was this a crossing of my personal boundary that should have been a red flag?


My personal position, and of course it's just mine, is that a refusal to do a simple task nicely requested needs a better defense than "I don't want to" before you say no - unless of course the requests are constant and never take your feelings into consideration.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Lostme said:


> No because you said maybe later


This!

If you had said "no" just because then I'd have to agree with her.

But you acknowledged the task just not on HER time table. Your time is equally valuable.

She's the one being selfish unless she can provide a valid reason why its an emergency.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I am on the opposite end. There have been occasions where I didn't want to do something perceived as simple. Unless you are being vindictive or making it a habit, it is alright to say no.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

I was at my ex-girlfriends house one time and we had to leave her house in 15 mins to be somewhere. I was ready and she was still getting ready. So while I waited she asked me to, "wash her dishes". Mind you they were not from a meal we had together but her own. I told her flat out "no". She flipped out and I was appalled. Never in my life would I have a guest in my house and ask them to start doing my choirs. She can wash her own dishes when we got back or the next day. There was no emergency reason they needed to be done or why I had to do them. She was crazy and that's why we broke up but the point is without boundaries you're just doormat she will eventually lose respect for.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

It's a fine line between helpful and doormat. I don't mind being helpful but once it feels one sided or uncessary nope.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> I was at my ex-girlfriends house one time and we had to leave her house in 15 mins to be somewhere. I was ready and she was still getting ready. So while I waited she asked me to, "wash her dishes". Mind you they were not from a meal we had together but her own. I told her flat out "no". She flipped out and I was appalled. Never in my life would I have a guest in my house and ask them to start doing my choirs. She can wash her own dishes when we got back or the next day. There was no emergency reason they needed to be done or why I had to do them. She was crazy and that's why we broke up but the point is without boundaries you're just doormat she will eventually lose respect for.


Lol 

Umm no


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

You mentioned on another thread that the frequency and quality of sex had dropped with your girlfriend. Is this the same gf? If so, could there be a correlation between you losing interest in doing things to please her (i.e. moving her chairs) and her doing things to please you? 

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Lila said:


> You mentioned on another thread that the frequency and quality of sex had dropped with your girlfriend. Is this the same gf? If so, could there be a correlation between you losing interest in doing things to please her (i.e. moving her chairs) and her doing things to please you?
> 
> Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


Negative. This was early in the relationship when things were still steamy. And to counter your notion I actually did much more for her later in the relationship as I slipped back into more codependent tendencies.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Interesting......maybe your relationship has run it's course? 

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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

That's an interesting story @COguy , and @BetrayedDad 's story backs up my feeling about it. Your refusal was not the thing to worry about. Her reaction was the thing you should have been thinking about. Many people (my Dad was one) have a list of things that must be done before they can do something. It's almost an obsession or Compulsion. Doing the chairs or dishes later wasn't an option in their psyche. Now you can get sucked into their crazy and accept every list they can create, or you can learn to understand their obsession and anticipate them, or you can refuse to participate in the circus. 

There are some possible ways to interpret this:
It was a S*** test and for once you passed.
She saw you weren't busy and she was and she automatically tried to balance the scale.
She failed to complete the tasks on her list before you arrived and wanted you to make up the difference.
She had planned to get a Man to do the heavy lifting Job. She saved it for you. When you didn't do it she had to re evaluate if you fit into her ideal of a Man.

It's long in the past now. Will this kind of behavior in the near future improve the relationship? Is there a better way to Hold onto your 
N.U.Ts? Can you be independent and still do Chores you don't like? Is independence attractive to her?


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Lila said:


> Interesting......maybe your relationship has run it's course?
> 
> Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


Well we broke up...so yes?


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> That's an interesting story @COguy , and @BetrayedDad 's story backs up my feeling about it. Your refusal was not the thing to worry about. Her reaction was the thing you should have been thinking about. Many people (my Dad was one) have a list of things that must be done before they can do something. It's almost an obsession or Compulsion. Doing the chairs or dishes later wasn't an option in their psyche. Now you can get sucked into their crazy and accept every list they can create, or you can learn to understand their obsession and anticipate them, or you can refuse to participate in the circus.
> 
> There are some possible ways to interpret this:
> It was a S*** test and for once you passed.
> ...


She was definitely controlling. This was just one example I have a few others in a similar vain, but basically if she had something in her mind and it didn't happen she would get angry. I'm trying to figure out why I am attracted to people like this, it's clear that it's my issue.

In this specific instance the chairs were heavy and so she was expecting me to help her with them. Which ordinarily wouldn't have been a problem but at that moment I really wasn't interested and I guess I chose that hill to die on as I was trying to make a conscious effort not to do things out of obligation. Honestly not really sure where the balance is. As someone who struggles with codependency I feel like I should error on the side of not doing something as opposed to sucking it up.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

If she needs you to do something for her so she can get some "fix", or fulfill a responsibility of hers regularly so she can take care of an addiction, then yes, it would be codependent for you to enable her. 

If it's just a matter of her needing something because she can't do it herself, then helping her is not codependent.

Still, it's up to you when, where and who you help. It's also up to you what you want to do and whether you are capable or not. 

There are different ways of saying no. It depends on the situation. There is nothing wrong with saying no when you need to do that. 

It's doormat policy when you decide you will do things to keep her from ever getting angry or to get something without prior discussion and agreement with the one you are helping.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

COguy said:


> Well we broke up...so yes?


On one hand this is sad but on the other, it's a good thing. It may sound cliche but you two were not compatible. You didn't waste too much time on someone who isn't right for you. 

With regards to balancing Co dependency with boundaries.....that's a tough one to answer because boundaries are so personal. They are usually something that's important to you and carry great weight over your happiness and well-being. 

The danger is in making EVERYTHING a boundary. You run the risk of becoming inflexible and difficult. The question you need to ask yourself is whether or not your current list of boundaries positively affect your happiness or well being? Of course the other side of that coin is to ask yourself whether or not you're doing so much for others that it's negatively affecting your happiness and well-being . Definitely a balancing act. 

Sent from mobile using Tapatalk


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

COguy said:


> Doing some reflecting on my codependency and boundaries, I'd like to bounce some stuff off some other people. ...
> 
> One time I was at my girlfriend's house and I was sitting on her couch. We were getting ready to leave in about 10-15 minutes and I was relaxed and feeling good. She said, "Hey before we go can you move these chairs upstairs?"
> 
> ...


 @COguy

Here is a sort of easy way to tell if it's codependence/boundary stuff. Okay first, a boundary is about what YOU will accept in your life, not controlling the other person. You are just controlling you and yourself! 

So when a girlfriend asks you to do something, it should be a REQUEST. By definition, a request means that you are free to say "no" without being punished. If you are "punished" for saying "no" then it is not a request--it is a DEMAND. Demands are controlling. 

So...

GF: "Hey before we go can you move these chairs upstairs?"
You: "I don't really feel like it to be honest. Maybe later?"
GF: "Hmmm...I need to do it before 4pm because I have XXX coming over. Would you do it before then?"
You: "No"
GF: "Okay. Then I need to take some time to move them now before we go. I don't really want to do it either, but I want them moved before 4pm so I'll do it!" 

See that's a healthy response. SHE wants them moved... not you. If she wants it, she can do it. She can request your help, but you are free to say yes or no. And yep, being in a relationship does mean that sometimes you do things you "don't want to do" because pleasing your other person is a bigger priority than doing "what you want to do." 

But FORCING someone to do what YOU want to do WHEN you want to do it...is controlling. And I suspect one of your boundaries is:

"I will not allow a person who is controlling to become an intimate in my life."


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> It's doormat policy when you decide you will do things to keep her from ever getting angry


That's definitely where I've been. Finding myself doing things just to stop a fight from happening. Just so I wouldn't have to deal with the anger or frustration. That's the only reason I would have ended up moving the chairs, so I didn't have to deal with the anger. And after moving them I would have been resentful about it.

Now that I think about it I think I clearly expressed that to her when she started getting upset. She didn't really care. So maybe that's my answer...

Though I struggle to think of a situation with a woman where when asking someone to do something like that they wouldn't get pissed if you said no. Is that a fair assumption or do I have a screwed up view?


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> @COguy
> 
> Here is a sort of easy way to tell if it's codependence/boundary stuff. Okay first, a boundary is about what YOU will accept in your life, not controlling the other person. You are just controlling you and yourself!
> 
> ...


Thank you that was very insightful. I remember multiple times saying something exactly like that to her. "You aren't really asking, you're demanding."

Unfortunately I'm not good at enforcing that boundary. There were some red flags regarding this behavior and I chose to ignore it. I guess that's what makes me codependent.....


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Screwed up view. Have you ever experienced saying no to a woman and anger doesn't happen?


Not me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

COguy said:


> That's definitely where I've been. Finding myself doing things just to stop a fight from happening. Just so I wouldn't have to deal with the anger or frustration. That's the only reason I would have ended up moving the chairs, so I didn't have to deal with the anger. And after moving them I would have been resentful about it.
> 
> Now that I think about it I think I clearly expressed that to her when she started getting upset. She didn't really care. So maybe that's my answer...
> 
> Though I struggle to think of a situation with a woman where when asking someone to do something like that they wouldn't get pissed if you said no. Is that a fair assumption or do I have a screwed up view?


I don't have to do something I don't want to do. I don't have to agree with her opinions about who I am or why I said no. 

There are consequences with everything. You'll have to decide what you can live with.

I think valuing yourself more will help you to see that what she feels is more about her than you. If that is anger, there is something within her that causes that instead of a response like @Affaircare gave you an example of. 

I think that when a partner/spouse attempts to use your emotions to control you, it's emotional abuse. 

One thing to remember is that nobody can fill all your needs. Don't place your happiness in someone else's hands. Live your life the way that makes you happy without being harmful to yourself and others. 

It may take some experimentation to figure out how and what to do. It's a lifetime of exploration and can be looked at as an adventure. 

Life is short. Live well.

Doing these things without neglecting a loved one is a bit of a challenge. It's doable and just needs some communication and a loving relationship to work out the details and compromises. 

If you communicated as you posted, I think you did well. Don't let worry and second guessing challenge your confidence that you can and will do better each time you have to say no. 

I think you did well.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

COguy said:


> Doing some reflecting on my codependency and boundaries, I'd like to bounce some stuff off some other people.
> 
> So as a people pleaser I tend to do things out of obligation. I probably went a little far on the spectrum but I tried making a conscious decision not to do anything that I really didn't want to do in my last relationship.
> 
> ...


You failed the "am I attractive and impressive enough to get a man slave test"

You could always agree with her argument, move the chairs, then ask for a BJ. This is show if the argument was a true point she was raising or a spoilt privileged person used to having others fulfill her whims just because she asked.
personally I'd shift the chairs 'cause I'm an overly helpful person - just like I come here and give advice for almost nothing.... now about that BJ (in reciprocation for the advice...)


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

IF you were really helpful, you'd give yourself a BJ to help him out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

This was a simple request.

If a stranger asked me to move some chairs I would do it.

It is not about being imposed on, but rather part of being civil.

I too, have a Big Ego. It primarily feeds off itself; is too big to hide with a rug.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Herschel said:


> IF you were really helpful, you'd give yourself a BJ to help him out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not as young and flexible as I used to be.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

SunCMars said:


> This was a simple request.
> 
> If a stranger asked me to move some chairs I would do it.
> 
> ...


Except they are in a relationship so it is no longer a simple request any more than a quick BJ is (doesn't take long, isn't much of a mess, no clothing removal needed, they're already in private ...and a lot more fun than moving chairs)


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

COguy said:


> One time I was at my girlfriend's house and I was sitting on her couch. We were getting ready to leave in about 10-15 minutes and I was relaxed and feeling good. She said, "Hey before we go can you move these chairs upstairs?"
> 
> For whatever reason I really didn't feel like it, and so I told her, "I don't really feel like it to be honest. Maybe later?"
> 
> She got really mad about that and I saw some validity in her comments.


Moving furniture 15 minutes before you are going out the door? 

Nope, that is *not *a reasonable request. Your offer of doing it later was more than considerate.

Her getting mad about it and arguing/lecturing? Over-the-top unreasonable, *red-flag*.

If it was me, this incident would be the end of the relationship.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

COguy said:


> She was definitely controlling. This was just one example I have a few others in a similar vain, but basically if she had something in her mind and it didn't happen she would get angry. I'm trying to figure out why I am attracted to people like this, it's clear that it's my issue.


Have you read Getting The Love You Want? That's what it's about - how you're attracted to certain kinds of people and how to change it. The first half of the book, anyway.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Red Sonja said:


> If it was me, this incident would be the end of the relationship.


Damn. Glad I'm not in a relationship with you.

Scratch that. I would have probably done something to end it long, long ago if the bar is this low.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Now you can get sucked into their crazy and accept every list they can create, or you can learn to understand their obsession and anticipate them, or you can refuse to participate in the circus.


Option 3: NEVER participate in the circus. Once you get sucked in, it's ALL over. Like feeding the pigeons, they become dependent on you to live and in return you just get sh!t on. Don't feed the pigeons!


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm in a hurry this morning so I won't quote properly. I kind of got lost trying to say what Red Sonia said so succinctly. It has nothing to do with the chairs. it has to do with being in a relationship that includes punishment. French Fry asked CO Guy if he had ever said No where it didn't lead to anger. I believe he hasn't. Mostly because he rarely says No. But when I read the original post, I thought, My wife would not blow up the house over a No. I say no all of the time. but more often I say, "No, I don't want to do that, but, for you I will." When I do just say no, she will either do it without me, or decide it doesn't really have to be done, or done now, or find someone else to do it. This is the difference between me and her brothers (all younger). They will take her punishments, I don't. That is all the independence she needed to be attracted.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> @COguy
> 
> 
> So when a girlfriend asks you to do something, it should be a REQUEST. By definition, a request means that you are free to say "no" without being punished. If you are "punished" for saying "no" then it is not a request--it is a DEMAND. Demands are controlling.


QFT.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Damn. Glad I'm not in a relationship with you.
> 
> Scratch that. I would have probably done something to end it long, long ago if the bar is this low.


Well @Cletus, if you are the type to get *angry and lecture *me when I decline to do something *exactly when you want it done* and, don't apologize for your outburst later ... then yes you should be glad you are not *dating *me.

Angry outbursts (sans apology or repeatedly occurring) are not acceptable behavior in adults.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

COguy said:


> That's definitely where I've been. Finding myself doing things just to stop a fight from happening....
> 
> Though I struggle to think of a situation with a woman where when asking someone to do something like that they wouldn't get pissed if you said no. Is that a fair assumption or do I have a screwed up view?


Hi @COguy, 

That's a screwed up view (in my personal opinion). 

*First*, you decide ahead of time if something is going to "make her mad" or not--so the lady in your life doesn't even have a chance to choose to do better or to show her better self. Now I do get it--a pattern emerges so that you have some accuracy with predicting, but you choose to WITHHOLD your true thoughts and feelings based on something that hasn't happened yet. I would suggest that you practice being transparent with the True You...and letting the lady in your life choose how she'll interact with the True You. 

So how's this look in real life? You get dressed up to go out--not a tux, but you look and smell GOOD! She has a few minutes to go and says "Will you move those chairs upstairs before we go?" You think "Oh shyte if I say no she'll be mad" but in real life you just got fancy and don't want to! You share the TRUE YOU and tell her "No babe. I just got dressed for the party. I'll do it when we get back, will that work?' She then has the opportunity to choose to be her old self and get mad, or choose to try something else and manipulate, or choose to grow as a human being and respond better! She chooses to share her TRUE SELF and says: "Oh wow that really won't. Listen I'm feeling kind of angry because it feels like you don't really care that the chairs are too heavy for me and hurt me. Is that what you meant?" You hear the thing about how heavy the chairs are and remember she hurt herself trying to move one! Yikes you didn't intend for her to feel that way! You stay with your True Self but offer a compromise you would be willing to do: "No that is not what I meant at all. Listen, how about if we both take 5 right now and both move them together. Then you can finish getting ready and I can dust myself off (lol)." See??


*Second*, I will agree with you that in the USA this day and age, many women act entitled and self-centered, and thus a large number would get mad if someone DARED to say "no" to them. But the whole point of dating someone is to find out if they are like that, and if they are... "NEXT!" 

There are some attributes that are maturity-related and if you find a lady who's pretty excellent but she still has some growing up to do because she's young--okay that's fairly acceptable. But other attributes are basic requirements for a healthy relationship, and if those attributes are missing, there just isn't hope of them growing out of that! I would say that if someone is unable to admit they are wrong on the occasion... "NEXT!" And if someone is unable to hear "no" without flying into a rage... "NEXT!" 

Seriously. Just be patient and if you find someone who can admit they were wrong (now and then) and can hear 'no' and continue to compromise in good faith--hey that's a keeper!


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Thank you for your post @Affaircare. Great stuff!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Affaircare said:


> There are some attributes that are maturity-related and if you find a lady who's pretty excellent but she still has some growing up to do because she's young--okay that's fairly acceptable. But other attributes are basic requirements for a healthy relationship, and if those attributes are missing, there just isn't hope of them growing out of that! I would say that if someone is unable to admit they are wrong on the occasion... "NEXT!" And if someone is unable to hear "no" without flying into a rage... "NEXT!"
> 
> Seriously. Just be patient and if you find someone who can admit they were wrong (now and then) and can hear 'no' and continue to compromise in good faith--hey that's a keeper!


This is TRUTH..







..Look for these things... there are plenty of opportunities to TEST this... Reading your opening post.. my 1st thought was .. you need this book !!!

>> Boundaries: When to Say Yes, When to Say No-To Take Control of Your Life 

I bought this book back in my 20's.. I LIKE to get along with people.. I don't particularly care for people to be irritated with me.. but on the other hand. I wouldn't enjoy being used, taken for granted or when people think they can "get something out of you" when it should be their responsibility..... there is always a balance here we need to find.. and when we lean towards being a "People pleaser".. what ends up happening is.. people use us AND we become resentful for doing TOO MUCH ...things we never wanted to do in the 1st place...like "how did we get hog tied into this mess !"

I had a GF who I felt was pushing the bar a little more than I cared for....I'd watch her 2 sons a lot.. our boys all friends, she'd watch my kids too on occasion... but there would be times she expected things from me that I didn't feel was "my place".. things I'd never ask someone that -if it was me... 

Silly example... but it was during reading this Book... and I KNEW to expect a REACTION when we stand up for our boundaries...

She brings her son over our house at 8pm , then calls me to make sure he gets a bath an hour later... I remember thinking she had him ALL day .. this should have been done.. I said something and she reacted angrily... saying "well... let him stink then".. 

I was like WHOOOAAA.... Ok... it's not always pretty when we stand up for ourselves.. 

Since reading that book.. I had a new handle on assessing what I SHOULD feel guilty about.. and when someone is asking TOO MUCH from me.. and NO.. I shouldn't take any guilt.. regardless of how they respond.. it's a great book !!

In the situation you gave.. it was reasonable for you to not do it at that second.. but offer that you would ... We should be careful how we ask things of others too.. be willing to help ourselves.. this goes a long way... I bet you are one that probably does @COguy !

About the book...



> Having clear boundaries is essential to a healthy, balanced lifestyle. A boundary is a personal property line that marks those things for which we are responsible. In other words, boundaries define who we are and who we are not. Boundaries impact all areas of our lives:
> 
> *Physical boundaries* help us determine who may touch us and under what circumstances --
> 
> ...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

COguy said:


> Doing some reflecting on my codependency and boundaries, I'd like to bounce some stuff off some other people.
> 
> So as a people pleaser I tend to do things out of obligation. I probably went a little far on the spectrum but I tried making a conscious decision not to do anything that I really didn't want to do in my last relationship.
> 
> ...


I get where you are coming from and have similar issues.

My experience has been that at first you have to draw a pretty hard line and just say if I don't want to do it, I'm not going to do it.

When you grow more confident that you can refuse whenever you want, it becomes a bit easier to be more flexible without questioning whether you're doing it for the right reasons.

In my case, if I get the sense that my wife thinks she is ordering me to do something, I stop right there.

For me, there's really only two categories: (1) stuff I actually want to do because I think it's the right thing to do and (2) stuff that I'm cool with doing as a straight up gift.

as soon as it becomes an obligation and I don't think it's necessary, I'm like, nope.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

COguy said:


> That's definitely where I've been. Finding myself doing things just to stop a fight from happening. Just so I wouldn't have to deal with the anger or frustration. That's the only reason I would have ended up moving the chairs, so I didn't have to deal with the anger. And after moving them I would have been resentful about it.
> 
> Now that I think about it I think I clearly expressed that to her when she started getting upset. She didn't really care. So maybe that's my answer...
> 
> Though I struggle to think of a situation with a woman where when asking someone to do something like that they wouldn't get pissed if you said no. Is that a fair assumption or do I have a screwed up view?


yeah, man, I've been there.

Basically, you just have to accept that her anger is her issue.

f- it.


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

I think the million dollar question is why are you attracted to women like this? Sounds like you are observing a pattern here.

I was listening to John Tesh Radio (Don't judge. I have a long commute.  ) the other day, and he said something to the effect that some study showed the personality trait in wives that led to highest sexual frequency and sexual satisfaction in a marriage was agreeableness on the part of the wife. Who knows if it's true or not, but it is definitely something to think about when chasing after some high maintenance princess type. You get more "action" with the laid back gals.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Ms. GP said:


> I think the million dollar question is why are you attracted to women like this? Sounds like you are observing a pattern here.
> 
> I was listening to John Tesh Radio (Don't judge. I have a long commute.  ) the other day, and he said something to the effect that some study showed the personality trait in wives that led to highest sexual frequency and sexual satisfaction in a marriage was agreeableness on the part of the wife. Who knows if it's true or not, but it is definitely something to think about when chasing after some high maintenance princess type. You get more "action" with the laid back gals.


Yeah I clearly recognize the pattern...recognized it before this relationship actually. Actually stopping myself is a different story. Very difficult to undo these reflexive emotional behaviors....I'd love a laid back girl but haven't found one yet LOL. Worried that something in my subconscious is turning them off and attracting the crazies. I need some sort of life coach to spy on my dates.


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

Mabye you are attracting the crazies. Mabye not. I have had to do some "pruning" of some high maintenance crazy female friendships over the years. What I noticed was they handed out a lot of verbal affirmation in the beginning (my love language btw) and me not not having the highest self esteem at the time fell for it. They also were very quick to tell their whole life stories. I didn't realize that this was a huge red flag for someone with crappy boundaries. Once I tried to assert my feelings, I was met with anger and manipulation. I've gotten better over the years of spotting it more quickly and cutting people like that out, which in turn leaves room and time for they really good friends.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My IC told me to write out a list of 'rights.' As in "I deserve not to be lied to." Write out the list, keep it in your wallet, read it often, and whenever you catch a woman (or a friend or a family member) doing it to you, point it out to them, tell them you need a break, and leave.


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

turnera said:


> My IC told me to write out a list of 'rights.' As in "I deserve not to be lied to." Write out the list, keep it in your wallet, read it often, and whenever you catch a woman (or a friend or a family member) doing it to you, point it out to them, tell them you need a break, and leave.


That's a good idea. Or mabye create a mantra like, "No, is a complete sentence. If anyone does not accept that right away, from that point on, they are trying to control me."


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

No is an acceptable response.

I think saying, 'No but I'm happy to move the chairs when we get back' states what you are willing to offer in response to her request.

Just as you may be learning to say no, she may not be used to people saying no to her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And it also doesn't hurt to say WHY you don't want to do it right now.


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

I feel like I am going to be the odd one out. But should "no" be an acceptable answer? Well it's always acceptable But, at least from my point of view, I would be hurt if I made a reasonable request of someone I was in a relationship with and they said no. 

Of course, if I requested my boyfriend move some chairs in a few minutes, I would do it if they were small wouldn't take much time to do and wouldn't mess up his clothes. Would I accept the "no"? Well what else can I do. But it would do damage. 

Of course, it also depends on why "no" is being said. Is it because you still have your own thing to do? In my mind, that would be reasonable. That would be setting a reasonable boundary. But if you were sitting on the couch doing much of nothing and you were asked to do a small task...well saying "no" would feel mean to me. And I would think less of you. Of course I don't like door mats, but I am also not willing to be in a relationship with someone who resents going out of his way for me.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> Screwed up view. Have you ever experienced saying no to a woman and anger doesn't happen?


I can't even imagine getting angry just because someone said no to me ....

Maybe if that's all they ever said. But then I wouldn't be in a relationship with them.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

COguy said:


> Doing some reflecting on my codependency and boundaries, I'd like to bounce some stuff off some other people.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't typically do dishes or help my wife clean the house, etc to please her. And, we don't teach our boys that is the reason to pitch in. I do these things, my boys, my wife carries out such task because they have to get done. It's a tribal effort to make the mess, it's a tribal effort to clean it up. 

I don't know the chair situation completely but I think you may be over thinking her motive as well as your own. It would have been better to say "ok, but if we do this together, we can get it done faster". 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Randy2 (Jul 19, 2016)

If there is a trend of co-dependency in you or your relationship, I feel it's important to be careful about how you approach that trend within a relationship. 
Moving the chairs may have been the straw that broke the camel's back.
Better next time to deal with that overloaded camel's back much earlier in the relationship. 
Or move the chairs, and the next day start a conversation with "I am conflicted about agreeing or saying No when you ask me things like yesterday's 'move the chairs'. Let's talk about that for a few minutes."


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

BlueWoman said:


> I feel like I am going to be the odd one out. But should "no" be an acceptable answer? Well it's always acceptable But, at least from my point of view, I would be hurt if I made a reasonable request of someone I was in a relationship with and they said no.
> 
> Of course, if I requested my boyfriend move some chairs in a few minutes, I would do it if they were small wouldn't take much time to do and wouldn't mess up his clothes. Would I accept the "no"? Well what else can I do. But it would do damage.
> 
> Of course, it also depends on why "no" is being said. Is it because you still have your own thing to do? In my mind, that would be reasonable. That would be setting a reasonable boundary. But if you were sitting on the couch doing much of nothing and you were asked to do a small task...well saying "no" would feel mean to me. And I would think less of you. Of course I don't like door mats, but I am also not willing to be in a relationship with someone who resents going out of his way for me.


It really just depends on the overall dynamic.

For example, if EVERY time you saw your husband/BF sitting on the couch you asked him to do something and then gave him attitude if he said "no" or "not now," then there would be an issue.

Or, if it was something you were perfectly capable of doing yourself, it would be an issue.

It's really about mutual respect. If you demonstrate respect for your SO's time an individual autonomy, then it's reasonable to expect that they will do you favors from time to time.

If you're not respectful, then you shouldn't expect favors. They're called favors for a reason.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I think an interesting thought experiment for the ladies would be to imagine if your husband/BF came home and started saying, "Hey sweetie, can you cook us dinner? Looks like you're just sitting on the couch."

The average woman would throw a fit.

And yet, the average women would probably think it's totally fine to lob a demand at her husband whenever she sees him sitting on the couch.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think the idea is that they are equally capable of cooking dinner. It may be easier, even much easier, for him to transport chairs.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

are the chairs made of lead?

is a woman incapable of lifting a chair?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I think these are Boundary issues. I do not think they are codependency issues. Look up some threads by @SimplyAmorous. I do believe she did some on the topic. Hell, I could be mistaken. I'm thinking of how to say no. I think you feel guilty when you say no. I think this comes from something in your youth. You'll want to explore that with a good counselor. I like phd level psychologists.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> I will agree with you that in the USA this day and age, many women act entitled and self-centered, and thus a large number would get mad if someone DARED to say "no" to them.


Part of me doesn't even blame them. Too many chivalrous guys putting them on grandiose pedestals most of their lives because they are taught that's what romance is.


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

"Excuse me, sir? I'm way too short to reach these boxes on the top shelf. Would you mind getting one down for me?"
"Sure, no problem. Here you are."
"Thank you!" (She walksa away thinking... Such a gentleman and he's handsome, too. Wonder if he's single...)

Same scene, different response:

"Excuse me, sir? I'm way too short to reach these boxes on the top shelf. Would you mind getting one down for me?"
"Uh, no. Don't feel like it right now."
"Wow. Ok." (She walks off thinking... Wow. What a selfish prick!)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Begin again said:


> "Excuse me, sir? I'm way too short to reach these boxes on the top shelf. Would you mind getting one down for me?"
> "Sure, no problem. Here you are."
> "Thank you!" (She walksa away thinking... Such a gentleman and he's handsome, too. Wonder if he's single...)
> 
> ...



LOL what is your point with this?


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

COguy said:


> LOL what is your point with this?


To make you feel guilty about not moving the stupid chairs!!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> are the chairs made of lead?
> 
> is a woman incapable of lifting a chair?


It is a deposit in her emotional bank account. If the economy is running properly, it should earn some interest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

COguy said:


> LOL what is your point with this?


Lol! You really need me to tell you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

jld said:


> It is a deposit in her emotional bank account. If the economy is running properly, it should earn some interest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




If there is no "interest" acrued, what is the return policy or resale value?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> If there is no "interest" acrued, what is the return policy or resale value?


In keeping (loosely) with the banking theme . . . I am not sure there is any deposit insurance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

jld said:


> In keeping (loosely) with the banking theme . . . I am not sure there is any deposit insurance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think he is better off having great boundaries than doing things for nothing, but her whim. This love bank thing is great if one wants to do those things because they make themselves happy. If someone is doing these things for his SO because she says so, and he is getting nothing in return, he is losing her respect.

If he does these for her at her whim, she may even look at it like he is trying to barter for sex. 

I don't think it's as simple as just doing what she asks.

ETA: I believe he was dressed to go out. Wasn't he? I'm pretty certain she knew that. My personal opinion is she was testing him to see if she could get him to play lap dog. Not cool. He's better off without her. There's no reason to require the chair to be moved upstairs immediately.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Begin again said:


> "Excuse me, sir? I'm way too short to reach these boxes on the top shelf. Would you mind getting one down for me?"
> "Sure, no problem. Here you are."
> "Thank you!" (She walksa away thinking... Such a gentleman and he's handsome, too. Wonder if he's single...)
> 
> ...


I think this is what she _really_ thought:

"Excuse me, you there, doing nothing. Can you get your a$$ in gear and be useful? Can you bring these chairs upstairs, please?"
"Uh, no, I don't feel like it right now."
"Wow. OK, stay a parasite to this world. But it is not going to be on me! Bye!"


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Ms. GP said:


> To make you feel guilty about not moving the stupid chairs!!


He should feel guilty.


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> He should feel guilty.


We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I think it's not really about the chairs to the OP, it's about his partner's reaction to him setting a boundary. One "no" to a seemingly simple request does not a "parasite" make. Ideally, the situation could have opened up a dialogue about his fears of his kindness being mistaken for weakness and being taken advantage of, but that is a difficult almost impossible task when one's partner is pouting and being passive aggressive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Ms. GP said:


> We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I think it's not really about the chairs to the OP, it's about his partner's reaction to him setting a boundary. One "no" to a seemingly simple request does not a "parasite" make. Ideally, the situation could have opened up a dialogue about his fears of his kindness being mistaken for weakness and being taken advantage of, but that is a difficult almost impossible task when one's partner is pouting and being passive aggressive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


QFT.


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

A good example from my life today. Both my husband and I have had long exhausting weeks at work. I'm off work today. While I've done some tidying up around the house today, the thought of cooking dinner is less than appealing. I expressed this to my husband and told him I would suck it up and not be mad if it was important to him but I just wasn't feeling it. He didn't care one bit. Said to meet him at our son's practice and we would all go out to eat. (Talk about a love bank deposit!)

I don't want my husband to associate me and coming home with a never ending "to do" list. He works his butt off btw (we both do) I tell him all the time to take a nap or play basketball with his buddies. I want our home to be his "soft place to land". Most of the "stuff" can wait anyways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

I came across this quote today and thought of this thread 
"..Essentially codependency, as I see it, is feeling somebody else’s feelings more than your own, looking towards caretaking in order to stay safe yourself, putting the focus on the environment and keeping the environment happy without a sense of ‘you’ or ‘me’ being a part of the environment."

When a person is trying to break out of this kind of mental construct they need to be able to say no, and like OP did, say it nicely and with consideration to the fact that they are willing to do it later. 
The article is here: http://www.codependencynomore.com/session22/

I hope that helps someone.


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## tigerlily99 (Nov 21, 2015)

Here is another great quote:
"My single biggest piece of advice for any codependent person is first to realize that is not a life sentence; it is not who you are. Codependency is only an adaptation that you developed as a child so that you could survive in very difficult circumstances. You learned it, and you can unlearn it. It is not a life sentence. And I would strongly recommend that you deal with it, because if you don’t it could destroy your life."

http://www.codependencynomore.com/session21/

I hope that you are getting help to move through your tendency toward codependency and becoming the healthy whole person you were meant to be.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

turnera said:


> And it also doesn't hurt to say WHY you don't want to do it right now.


I asked something of my husband. I felt (and admitted) it was a big favor but told him I was asking this of him because I felt nervous/anxious. He said no, told me his plans instead, and that he needed to know I could manage this thing by myself. He instead suggested a solution to help me out.

We understood where each other was coming from. On the day, he texted and asked how I was going and I told him I was all good, thanks to his suggestion! A good result in my book.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Exactly. The communication was there. That's really all it takes.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Ms. GP said:


> That's a good idea. Or mabye create a mantra like, "No, is a complete sentence. If anyone does not accept that right away, from that point on, they are trying to control me."


Merely because someone possess free will and _can _refuse, doesn't mean they should, or that it's right of them to refuse.

So I would disagree with that mantra. Because it fosters the belief that someone can, and should, do whatever they want, whenever they want, without reproach or repercussion. That their desire is king, rather than doing what's right. Not that you meant your post to be an absolute.


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

BioFury said:


> Merely because someone possess free will and _can _refuse, doesn't mean they should, or that it's right of them to refuse.
> 
> So I would disagree with that mantra. Because it fosters the belief that someone can, and should, do whatever they want, whenever they want, without reproach or repercussion. That their desire is king, rather than doing what's right. Not that you meant your post to be an absolute.


You're absolutely right. I was not referring to an absolute truth. I mostly use that mantra when dealing with pushy sale's people trying to sell me something I don't want to buy. However, I do believe most people have more "free will" than they realize. People, myself included, do things out of guilt and become resentful when the outcome isn't as appreciated as we would like. We put another brick in the wall of resentment.

The fact is no woman wants to be married to an overgrown man child and no man wants an entitled princess, and I think we react and test each other out of fear. When some simple communication could prevent a lot of relationship discord.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Ms. GP said:


> You're absolutely right. I was not referring to an absolute truth. I mostly use that mantra when dealing with pushy sale's people trying to sell me something I don't want to buy. However, I do believe most people have more "free will" than they realize. People, myself included, do things out of guilt and become resentful when the outcome isn't as appreciated as we would like. We put another brick in the wall of resentment.
> 
> The fact is no woman wants to be married to an overgrown man child and no man wants an entitled princess, and I think we react and test each other out of fear. When some simple communication could prevent a lot of relationship discord.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Most of the people I run into have too much free will. They believe that merely because they want to do something, gives them the right to do it. Or believe it, or whatever. And they get mad and resentful toward anyone who tries to "control them", or tell them that they're wrong.

But I agree, communication is severely lacking in a lot of relationships. If only people were more honest and forthright about their thoughts and feelings, a lot of drama and pain could be avoided.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

BioFury said:


> That their desire is king, rather than doing what's right. Not that you meant your post to be an absolute.


Ok so two people in a neutral situation, taking out the trash for example. You want it done, I don't want to do it. If I don't do it, my desire is king and I'm selfish. If I do do it, your desire is king and you're selfish. And yet the paradigm is that the person who doesn't do the thing is being selfish and the other person is being reasonable.

This is the crux of the problem as I see. The cliche of the nagging wife, where everything she asks is reasonable and so her nagging is reasonable. If the guy doesn't do everything she wants he's lazy/uncaring/selfish, etc.

I'm hopeful from other people's posts on here, that some people respect their partners feelings enough that they can accept a no without getting offended or angry. Assuming both people like and want to help their partner, there's no reason for the pettiness IMO.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

This is a little different, as it's for a couple living together and both working full time, but what I always recommend is that you get a poster board and write out a list of all chores that have to be done - from getting the mail to scrubbing the toilet. You sit down together and you start putting your initials by what you'd like to be responsible for. And you go through the list, until all things are accounted for. Of course the things you 'don't mind' the most will be chosen first, and the worst jobs will be accounted for last, but they WILL be accounted for - that's compromise. And then the two of you sign it, agreeing to be responsible for those things. Then if an issue comes up, you pull out the chart and say didn't you agree to do this? Here it is. And then you have another discussion about why it's not getting done and seeing if you need to take another look at the chores and maybe make some changes, now that you know what the jobs really entail. And you compromise again.

But as for your situation, I'm fully on board with how you handled it, except that you probably could have said WHY you didn't want to at that moment, so that she didn't have to fill in the gap with her OPINION on why you said no.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

COguy said:


> Ok so two people in a neutral situation, taking out the trash for example. You want it done, I don't want to do it. If I don't do it, my desire is king and I'm selfish. If I do do it, your desire is king and you're selfish. And yet the paradigm is that the person who doesn't do the thing is being selfish and the other person is being reasonable.
> 
> This is the crux of the problem as I see. The cliche of the nagging wife, where everything she asks is reasonable and so her nagging is reasonable. If the guy doesn't do everything she wants he's lazy/uncaring/selfish, etc.
> 
> I'm hopeful from other people's posts on here, that some people respect their partners feelings enough that they can accept a no without getting offended or angry. Assuming both people like and want to help their partner, there's no reason for the pettiness IMO.


She gave you a simple request: could you please help me move some chairs? But rather than have a feeling of chivalry, or consider that they might be heavy, and difficult for her to lift, or just that you would be happy to help her, you said "nope". 

If I was her, that would have been the end of our romantic relationship. Your action communicated selfishness, and complete apathy to her needs and well-being. Her getting upset about it was out of line, but your actions were just as unacceptable.

A relationship is about serving your partner. The reason marriages fail is because one person or the other starts being selfish. Starts valuing their own desires and needs above those of their partner. When both people put the needs of their mate ahead of their own, you're in a contest of generosity. A never ending cycle of giving.

A spouse should be able to refuse to do something, no doubt. But not for the petty reason of "I don't want to". What do you mean, you don't want to? I don't want to go to work, does that mean I shouldn't go?

If "I don't want to" is the only reason you have, then you should willingly submit to her desire. Or if for some reason it's a major "I don't want to", then you should suggest a compromise. But I guess the big thing that you're missing, is that you do this out of love. You do it because you care, and want the other person to be happy.


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

In that specific case, as the GF I would feel you're playing some sort of power struggle. It's not a difficult, stinky, or grueling task. Move something from point A to point B; ie pass the ketchup. And the answer is "no, maybe later"? That answer would be fairly surprising and confusing. But why?? I can get up and grab the ketchup myself, but it's easier for you! And, the "maybe later" would only make it worse, as I'd be thinking Great! Now I have to keep this on my mind, and remind you again later if I want it done, since you're likely gonna forget since it's such a SMALL task. Might as well do it myself, thanks for nothing.

I think it's great you're recognizing you have boundary issues and are trying to create boundaries, but maybe have a conversation with your GF before testing it out suddenly? I mean it definitely felt like you were saying "no" not to her request, but to a bigger issue she wasn't aware of, so then both parties are left feeling wronged.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Let's not forget that she asked it 15 minutes before they were to leave, he'd already gotten ready to leave, she wasn't going to USE the chairs until at least when they got back, moving them may have caused him to get sweaty or dirty, and it's not his house anyway!

Now, I agree, you help a woman with heavy or awkward things. And what was missing was him saying "hey, I'm really just relaxed and ready to go right now. Do you mind if I do then when we get back?" and she SHOULD have then said, 'hey, no, it's no big deal, that would be great.'

He never said he had no intention of moving them; just not that moment.

But saying no is new to COGuy and he's a little rusty at doing it right, lol.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

turnera said:


> Let's not forget that she asked it 15 minutes before they were to leave, he'd already gotten ready to leave, she wasn't going to USE the chairs until at least when they got back, moving them may have caused him to get sweaty or dirty, and it's not his house anyway!
> 
> Now, I agree, you help a woman with heavy or awkward things. And what was missing was him saying "hey, I'm really just relaxed and ready to go right now. Do you mind if I do then when we get back?" and she SHOULD have then said, 'hey, no, it's no big deal, that would be great.'
> 
> ...


Yes "Could I help you with it when we get back?" would have been an appropriate response. But that's not what he communicated. He basically told her to jump off a cliff.

I'm not familiar with the "past COGuy", but the balls to stand up for yourself and say "no" is typically only something you need when dealing with people who push boundaries. Salesmen, customers, mother-in-laws, etc. There's nothing healthy about saying "no" just because you can, or merely want to. That's selfishness.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BioFury said:


> Yes "Could I help you with it when we get back?" would have been an appropriate response. But that's not what he communicated. He basically told her to jump off a cliff.
> 
> I'm not familiar with the "past COGuy", but the balls to stand up for yourself and say "no" is typically only something you need when dealing with people who push boundaries. Salesmen, customers, mother-in-laws, etc. There's nothing healthy about saying "no" just because you can, or merely want to. That's selfishness.


No, he said 


> For whatever reason I really didn't feel like it, and so I told her, "I don't really feel like it to be honest. Maybe later?"


No jumping off a cliff, and he DID (1) say he didn't feel like it and (2) offer to do it later. He just didn't go as far as I suggested he do by explaining WHY he didn't feel like it atm. 

SHE is the one to TOOK it as telling to jump off a cliff.

There is absolutely valid reasons to say no to your spouse, let alone your girlfriend/boyfriend. Just because you're in a relationship it doesn't mean you now have to do everything they tell you to. That's just codependency.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

turnera said:


> No, he said
> 
> No jumping off a cliff, and he DID (1) say he didn't feel like it and (2) offer to do it later. He just didn't go as far as I suggested he do by explaining WHY he didn't feel like it atm.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, his answer was not as bad as I remembered. But still not ideal. 

Doing something you don't feel like doing, for someone you care about, is not codependency, it's love. Yes, when you're in an unhealthy relationship with a nut job, you're gonna have to say no to them a lot. But not when you're in a healthy relationship.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Bullshyte. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you have to do everything they say. Sure, you may WANT to do a lot for them. But you are in NO way obligated to do so. And besides, in this case, they were only dating.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

And, she wasn't very nice to him generally.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

I don't really feel like defending myself anymore but I was in a relationship where the other person didn't respect my feelings on matters such as these. To the point where I felt like I was being taken for granted and not appreciated (this was communicated). I don't feel like my thoughts on what I wanted to do mattered. She wanted something done, that was it in her mind. She was controlling.

That's the kind of people I get with...So no it wasn't a healthy relationship from that standpoint.

I'm sure if she had said "That's fine, I'll find another way to handle it, go ahead and relax." I probably would have immediately gotten off my ass and done it.

But Turnera is right, I suck at saying no and need some practice. Clearly in this case what I should have done is made it known much earlier that I was feeling unappreciated and didn't feel respected by her actions, and that it was making me not want to do things for her. That way the chairs aren't the start of a conversation but the end of one.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

turnera said:


> Bullshyte. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you have to do everything they say. Sure, you may WANT to do a lot for them. But you are in NO way obligated to do so. And besides, in this case, they were only dating.


When did I say that you were obligated? I didn't. Loving someone is about wanting to serve them, not being forced to.

Actually, I would argue that in marriage, you are obligated. When a couple gets married, they swear to love and care for the other person till death. You are thus obligated to fulfill your vow.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

But it doesn't mean you always have to do it on the other person's timetable or suffer their wrath.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

@COguy,

Check out those book links I posted. They will help you. I think, it's not only that you have little practice, but there is a bit of a conscience issue. Those books will help. 

You see, if you don't feel bad about saying no, once in a while, then you will have a tendency to give replies that roll off the tongue a little easier and are well thought out. 

You don't have to explain your life away, either. You don't owe her that. There has to be at least some trust there. 

Respect doesn't require you to tell her everything in your mind. Read, it will help.

Added: If you are with this woman now, I'd think twice about anything long term. Keep looking.


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