# Are my future husband's female friendships appropriate?



## Ahiru (Jun 1, 2011)

We are a couple in our 20's, have known each other 4-5 years, and been a couple for about 2 years. We are best friends, super compatible, and happy together. We've known we wanted to be married since the beginning of our relationship. But issues keep coming up about his female friends that cause me a lot of pain and put strain on our relationship, and I'm very confused. Are these friendships appropriate in our case? Should we be doing something differently?

This is my first relationship, so a lot of my feelings are new and confusing. However, I have come to a few firm conclusions about myself. I am not an insecure, jealous, or controlling person. I also trust completely that he would never cheat or intend anything unfaithful. I want him to be able to have female friends if that's possible. I want to add to his life, not take away from it. I would feel bad if he had to give up any friendships, especially his old high school friendships from before we met.

Here is what I have come up with.


Pros for him having female friends:

-He grew up among sisters, and has always maintained friendships with females because he feels more comfortable with it.
-He prefers female friends because he's found that they make better friends. Male friends seem to care more about his entertainment value than anything deeper.
-He doesn't consider it a friendship unless there is considerable depth to the relationship. Anything else is just acquaintanceship, which doesn't interest him.
-He's not in it for his ego (to be flattered by female attention), he just seeks meaningful platonic friendships, which are easier for him to find in females.
-The first thing he tells new female friends when he meets them is that he is in a happy relationship, he is looking for a platonic friend only, and if that is not her intention too, they can't be friends.


Cons for him having female friends:

-He doesn't have a good sense of appropriate boundaries, or why they should exist. He treats and is treated by his female friends exactly the same as a romantic partner, except that there is no holding hands/kissing/sex. There are no other physical or emotional boundaries.
-We have tried to put some boundaries in place to see if it helps, with little success. They feel so unnatural to him, he forgets how to act, and why he should act that way. He simply doesn't pick up on all the subtleties (even the UNsubtleties) that should prompt boundaries.
-He is very caring and generous by nature, which is wonderful, but often causes female friends to become too dependent on him. He discusses deep personal topics with female friends, offers a lot of advice, helps them with their problems, and serves as a shoulder to cry on. He says that women often confide and vent to him about their personal problems, especially their current relationships or exes. He is also often asked to help them move, fix their belongings, escort them or pick them up from dangerous areas. These things have no deeper meaning to him than just being nice. So he often finds himself in female friendships where he is much more important to her than she is to him.
-He's really innocent. He is oblivious to flirtation and other signs of sexual or romantic interest unless they are very, and I mean VERY, overt. He does not catch hints. He does not read between lines. He does not pick up clues. He doesn't realize a woman is interested or developing interest unless she makes it very obvious, usually an actual verbal confession. Two separate times as a teenager, two different girls have "broken up" with him while he had no idea they were even a couple. He is utterly clueless, and knows this about himself.
-He has female friends from before we met, but also new female friends from after the start of our relationship. None of these female friends have made any attempt to befriend me, even after he continually suggests that they befriend me. I have also tried to make opportunities for them to talk to me. I would like to be friends with them. Our only mutual female friends are ones I knew first, or ones we both met before we were in a relationship.
-He has been actively, and independently, seeking new female friends throughout our relationship. He doesn't try to keep me from these friends or hide them in any way, but it is nearly impossible for me to physically go hang out with them or bring them to our place, for reasons beyond our control right now.
-I am positive that at least some of his female friends have feelings for him. He rarely believes me when I try to warn him that his "friend" doesn't fit the proper role of a friend anymore, even though my suspicions have been dramatically revealed correct before, which makes me feel like my input is being invalidated and unfairly dismissed.
-I am hurt by this perpetual situation. The lack of boundaries does bother me a great deal. It doesn't seem proper. The physical closeness and contact just seems wrong to me. He has successfully toned that down a great deal with his newer friends because he recognized that it gives female friends the wrong idea. But he reverts right back to his old ways when he sees his old friends, out of habit and their reinforcement. The emotional intimacy also seems very inappropriate. And the exclusivity especially bothers me. I feel like our relationship is not being honored and respected, by both him and his female friends.
-I am worried for the female friends, because if they do have feelings for him, the closeness of their friendship will continue to give the friends false hope that they have a chance together. He is unintentionally leading them on, wasting their time, and even breaking their hearts. He is naive to believe he can prevent someone from falling for him just by stating a "happily engaged" disclaimer the first time they ever speak.

There is much more to say, but I would talk forever if I didn't pace myself. Any opinions so far would be much appreciated.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

If you want this in your life, marry it. He is showing you who he is. Trying to change him or talk him out of who he is will not work. My view is intimate freindships with the opposite sex have no place in marriage.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

He is an affair waiting to happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rob774 (Sep 27, 2010)

ClipClop said:


> He is an affair waiting to happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How so? He hasn't done anything wrong. 

To the OP... you pretty much described me, with the difference being that i do see when a woman is flirting, those i keep at a distance. But i have a bunch of gal pals, who use me as a shoulder to cry on. My wife knows about these women, some have friended her. The biggest concern i have hear is that these women don't seem interested in you. To me, that's a huge RED FLAG. I've had gal pals go out of their way to befriend my wife, just showing that nothing is being kept in secret, and they are not mysterious. 

But on your future hubby's part, until he actual does something that violates your trust, i don't see this being a big issue. Yes, boundaries should be present in a marriage, but these connections were already made prior to your marriage, and as logn as they aren't inappropriate in the grand scheme of things, i don't see it as an issue. Tread carefully on how you approach this one. You will come of as jealous and insecure if you botch the way you handle this.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

She said he is innocent and essentially doesn't see that some I'd these women have feelings for him. So imo one day something will start out innocently enough, say she is distraught over something, hugging leads to kissing, kissing leads to sex.

Why a man would put himself in harms way and risk his marriage I will never know. Everyone thinks they are incapable of cheating until it just happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

ClipClop said:


> She said he is innocent and essentially doesn't see that some I'd these women have feelings for him. So imo one day something will start out innocently enough, say she is distraught over something, hugging leads to kissing, kissing leads to sex.
> 
> Why a man would put himself in harms way and risk his marriage I will never know. Everyone thinks they are incapable of cheating until it just happens.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Bitter much?


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Hardly. The same goes for women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ahiru (Jun 1, 2011)

Thank you for your responses so far. Please do explain why you have these opinions, if you haven't, because it would help. I will also show this thread to future hubby when we're done, and it helps him to see as many viewpoints and ways of explaining as possible. He wants to make his own thread as well from his own point of view. We are both committed to working on this.

Yes, I agree that there are huge red flags here. I should have noted, I have had plenty of conversations with him about ALL of this, and more, throughout our whole relationship. I must say that he is wonderful. Our conversations are always about understanding the other, and not about defending a side. He never gets defensive, but he does fail to understand at times. Every time I bring up all of these things, he simply asks me, "What should I do?" I just didn't know what to tell him. He is willing to give up female friendships. He puts up no argument. I'm most important to him. He says he has never thought of his friendships this way before, and if what I'm saying is really how it is, it makes him not want to have female friends. It really freaks him out!

But I have felt bad about perhaps asking him to give up female friendships, because I feel like it would be punishing him when he did nothing wrong. His last relationship was with a very insecure, jealous, controlling woman. He was used to hearing these things from her and assumed it was because she was messed up. But now that he's hearing it from me, someone who is the polar opposite of his last relationship, and also reading it from other sources I've been sharing with him lately, he is understanding it differently.

I was also unsure of why I had a problem with these friendships, and didn't want to take action until I understood my own feelings. We both came into this relationship being very naive about relationships. We both thought that as long as there is no physical affair, nothing else one does could possibly be wrong (and now I am a little ahead of him in learning differently). But that's why I was very confused as to why I was having hurt feelings over these relationships if I wasn't, in fact, insecure. In which case I shouldn't be controlling him to ease my own insecurities. However, I have finally come to the conclusion that it's not about jealousy or distrust, it is more about honoring the exclusive commitment we have made to each other as partners, upholding decorum, and not unintentionally hurting these female friends who are getting wrong ideas. And I agree that no one is immune from cheating, so it is also about protecting our future from unanticipated threats. I'm just not feeling threatened right now because, from what I've heard of these women, they are no competition at all. I am a pretty awesome girlfriend if I do say so. But it's true, we are at risk if this keep going on.

Please send more opinions, you are all being very helpful.


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## Rob774 (Sep 27, 2010)

ClipClop said:


> *She said he is innocent and essentially doesn't see that some I'd these women have feelings for him. So imo one day something will start out innocently enough, say she is distraught over something, hugging leads to kissing, kissing leads to sex.*Why a man would put himself in harms way and risk his marriage I will never know. Everyone thinks they are incapable of cheating until it just happens.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Perhaps, but this actually helps his argument. IF these actions don't phase him... then it won't lead to sex. 

Everyman doesn't take advantage of an opportunity, just because it presents himself. I could right a book on this.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

You said it yourself: he doesn't know how to have appropriate boundaries w/ these females, the females have made no effort to befriend you, and your gut is prob right about them having feelings for him.

Don't marry him.


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

Being unaware males someone more vulnerable becausethey don't recognize danger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadieBrown (Mar 16, 2011)

Ahiru said:


> We are a couple in our 20's, have known each other 4-5 years, and been a couple for about 2 years. We are best friends, super compatible, and happy together. We've known we wanted to be married since the beginning of our relationship. But issues keep coming up about his female friends that cause me a lot of pain and put strain on our relationship, and I'm very confused. Are these friendships appropriate in our case? Should we be doing something differently?
> 
> This is my first relationship, so a lot of my feelings are new and confusing. However, I have come to a few firm conclusions about myself. I am not an insecure, jealous, or controlling person. I also trust completely that he would never cheat or intend anything unfaithful. I want him to be able to have female friends if that's possible. I want to add to his life, not take away from it. I would feel bad if he had to give up any friendships, especially his old high school friendships from before we met.
> 
> ...


If you were talking about one or maybe two close long time female friends it _might_ be a different issue, but your post makes it seem as if your boyfriend collects female friends the way most men collect power tools or baseball cards. 

Does your boyfriend have any male friends, or is it only female?

Have you ever sat home alone while he was out with one or more of the female friends?


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

I would not marry someone who was not mature enough to make the boundaries clear.

You will end up hurt, and even if he never has a PA it sounds like he has very intimate relationships with these women and shares things that I believe should be only shared between a husband and a wife.


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## SadieBrown (Mar 16, 2011)

Ahiru said:


> However, I have finally come to the conclusion that it's not about jealousy or distrust, it is more about honoring the exclusive commitment we have made to each other as partners, upholding decorum, and not unintentionally hurting these female friends who are getting wrong ideas.Exactly, I'm glad you understand all that. And I agree that no one is immune from cheating, so it is also about protecting our future from unanticipated threats. Good, I'm glad you realize that, granted some people are a lot more immune than others, but I think the best you can get is 99% immuneI'm just not feeling threatened right now because, from what I've heard of these women, they are no competition at all. I am a pretty awesome girlfriend if I do say so.Don't get to smug and comfortable, have you seen the woman Arnold cheated on Maria with?? I'm just saying. . . .
> and what do you mean by "what I've heard of these women"? What have you heard about them and from who? But it's true, we are at risk if this keep going on.
> 
> Please send more opinions, you are all being very helpful.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You have a problem with these relationships because you are normal. You have to admit to yourself that if your boyfriend was truly committed to you he would drop friendships with other women, no questions asked. He would not only be willing but happy to do this for you, if he were committed to you. Please consider this.


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## Ahiru (Jun 1, 2011)

Rob774 and ClipClop make excellent opposing points. If the woman's actions don't phase him, it won't lead to sex. If he's not feeling anything, he's not going to do anything. However, maybe he is fooling himself. He has told me before that he could never have an affair because if he feels himself starting to have feelings, he knows how to turn those feelings off. I believe he thinks that's true, but I don't believe it's actually true. I don't think people can decide what feelings they have. They instead need to avoid situations that could cause those feelings. If that's the case, then what he's doing is very dangerous.

To those saying don't marry him: Is that the only option? I think there is far too much good about this relationship not to at least work on solving this problem before calling it quits. If I am only just now figuring some of these things out, why can't he? We are both willing to learn, and are mature in other important ways. I'm not convinced we can't resolve this.

I know he is willing to give up the friendships, no questions asked. I assume he is also happy to do it for me, though I will need to ask to confirm. But keep in mind it has been me telling him NOT to end the friendships all this time, because I wasn't sure it was the solution. Do you guys think it is the solution then?


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## TotoWeRNotInKansasAnymore (Apr 7, 2011)

Those bad friendship apples are not gender specific. Male or female you must pick out those with ulterior motives who do not need to be in your life. I have many more male friends and some I “must” trust with my life. I have a few female friends which I could confidently state I would trust in those same circumstances. Many others would probably panic and run the other way.


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## Ahiru (Jun 1, 2011)

SadieBrown said:


> _I don't think this is necessarily the case, I'm a female with a male best friend. He has always been there for me, I get long better with males for the most part because I have found that females can be to self centered and petty. Yes, you're right, it is certainly possible to have a meaningful male friendship. He has one now, and his best friend growing up was male. My point was just that he has simply had little luck with males, and much more luck with females, so he figures it's easier just to look for females.
> 
> Really, most adults are able to grasp the concept that appropriate boundaries exist to prevent misunderstands and to avoid giving out the wrong signals. Yes, he's clearly not "most adults."  He's only realizing this now. Maybe it had to do with a previous controlling relationship, which misled him to believe that only insecure people demand boundaries. And if I had to guess as to why he never had them before that, it was probably because of his female friends. They didn't have boundaries either. Maybe they all had feelings for him and enjoyed the lack of normal boundaries, which got him believing it was normal. Not to mention it was high school. High school is all ABOUT pushing boundaries.
> 
> ...


I've been left home for him to have a purely social visit with another woman once or twice at the beginning of our relationship. But that has stopped happening. Other times he's been away from me with other women was when he went back home twice to visit his family across the country (where his old friends also live), and when he actually has non-social reasons to be at the place where the female friends are, which has been the case for some time. For example, he would do odd jobs to help us with money, and some of these female friends came from things like that. He once agreed to give flute lessons to a little girl at her home, and made friends with her single mom. He told me they had several things in common, and they would have talks. She was one of the women I was particularly sure had feelings for him. I remember telling him so, and teasing him that she just wanted a daddy for her kids. He didn't take me seriously, but she apparently ended up making a drunken phone call to him out of the blue one day, sobbing that he was cheating on her "friend-love" towards him, that all she ever wanted from him was honesty, and more frightening nonsense. He told her to never contact him again and hung up. So yes, it is just a little exasperating to me that things have to get THAT bad before he catches on. And I do wish he would believe me, but how can you make someone see something that they just don't see?

To your other post, I didn't mean it as smugness, just thought I'd throw in some silliness.  You are right, it is a risk, and complacence is dangerous. I hear about these women from him, and from whatever I see them post on his facebook if they're on it. I've met one of them a few times. A couple of them have spoken to me over the internet. It's quite true that I know little about them and there's a lot I could be wrong about. But apparently I pick up enough to predict things like that single mom.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Ahiru said:


> To those saying don't marry him: Is that the only option?


Absoltely not. It's just that, me personally, I wouldn't marry a man who, as you stated, treats his female friends the same way he treats his romantic partner.

That is a huge red flag to me.

The bottom line is that his friendships with these females are inappropriate to you therefore taht is what ou need to figure out the resolution to. If you have talked with him about it and nothing changes, you need to decide what you want to do.

Whichever way you decide, I wish you luck.


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## Ahiru (Jun 1, 2011)

Hicks said:


> You have a problem with these relationships because you are normal. You have to admit to yourself that if your boyfriend was truly committed to you he would drop friendships with other women, no questions asked. He would not only be willing but happy to do this for you, if he were committed to you. Please consider this.


I just asked him about whether he would be happy to do it. He said he would be sad to lose a friend, but happy to do it for me to better our relationship. And added that friends like that come and go throughout life anyhow, so it's not even so much of a loss.


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## SadieBrown (Mar 16, 2011)

Ahiru said:


> To those saying don't marry him: Is that the only option? I think there is far too much good about this relationship not to at least work on solving this problem before calling it quits. If I am only just now figuring some of these things out, why can't he? We are both willing to learn, and are mature in other important ways. I'm not convinced we can't resolve this. Okay, so don't call it quits just yet - but do not marry him until this is resolved to your satisfaction. Getting married with doubts and with issues that the two of you can't resolve is NOT the way to start married life.
> 
> I know he is willing to give up the friendships,then why hasn't he since he knows this is causing conflict between the two of you? no questions asked. I assume he is also happy to do it for me, though I will need to ask to confirm. But keep in mind it has been me telling him NOT to end the friendships all this time, because I wasn't sure it was the solution.Why have you been telling him not to end the friendships since it is causing you problems? If he had a male friend that, for what ever reason, was causing conflict in your relationship would you have problems with asking him to end that friendship? I think part of your problem is you don't want to be seen as insecure. I think a lot of women will put up with this behavior from men because they don't want to come off as clingy or insecure. I say stop worrying about it and if it is what you want then ask him to give up the friendships. Do you guys think it is the solution then?I think it will help some of the conflict in the relationship. But I think the real solution is for your boyfriend and you to work on your communications skills and boundary setting and then practice sticking to those boundaries. Your boyfriend needs to ask himself why it is so important to him to have so many female friends. I don't buy that he is just more at ease with females because of his sisters. I come from a large family where the sisters far outnumbered the brothers. I didn't see my two brothers becoming more comfortable with females than males. In face it seemed to make them seek out more male friends and do more manly stuff.


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## SadieBrown (Mar 16, 2011)

Ahiru said:


> I just asked him about whether he would be happy to do it. He said he would be sad to lose a friend, but happy to do it for me to better our relationship. And added that friends like that come and go throughout life anyhow, so it's not even so much of a loss.



So, he doesn't consider giving up these female friends as 'much of a loss', so why hasn't he done it already to make you happy?

Oh, and about how friends like this come and go - does that mean he plans on obtaining more female friends in the future.

I think the two of you need counseling. You need to understand why you had such a hard time standing up and asking him to give up the female friends - and he needs to understand why it is so important to him to surround himself with adoring females.

BTW, I have to ask, you said the two of you were friends for two years before you started dating, so did he have a girlfriend during those two years?


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## Ahiru (Jun 1, 2011)

SadieBrown said:


> Okay, so don't call it quits just yet - but do not marry him until this is resolved to your satisfaction. Getting married with doubts and with issues that the two of you can't resolve is NOT the way to start married life. Agreed.
> 
> Why have you been telling him not to end the friendships since it is causing you problems? If he had a male friend that, for what ever reason, was causing conflict in your relationship would you have problems with asking him to end that friendship? I think part of your problem is you don't want to be seen as insecure. I think a lot of women will put up with this behavior from men because they don't want to come off as clingy or insecure. I say stop worrying about it and if it is what you want then ask him to give up the friendships. Because I was naive and confused, and wasn't sure the relationships were the problems. I wasn't worried that I'd be seen as insecure, but rather that I truly WAS insecure. It took me this long to realize it wasn't insecurity, it was just that the relationships were crossing necessary boundaries. I didn't understand that boundaries were a necessary thing, but now I do. I'd certainly prefer not to be seen as insecure for enforcing boundaries, but if I know it's the right thing for the relationship, how I'm seen by others is not important. I just wasn't sure it WAS the right thing.
> 
> ...


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## Ahiru (Jun 1, 2011)

SadieBrown said:


> So, he doesn't consider giving up these female friends as 'much of a loss', so why hasn't he done it already to make you happy?
> 
> Oh, and about how friends like this come and go - does that mean he plans on obtaining more female friends in the future.
> 
> ...


Because I told him not to. He would say, "Well, I guess I should stop having female friends then," and I said no. So he did exactly as I asked.

I will have to ask for clarification on what he meant by that.

It would be awesome if we could get counseling. We're broke though. I guess that's why I'm here. I already do understand why I didn't want him to give up the female friends. As for his part, I guess I can't speak for him completely, because I only know what he's told me, I can't read his mind. Counseling would probably help us communicate more effectively at the very least.

Yes, while we were friends, he had a girlfriend. I was friends with her too.


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## SadieBrown (Mar 16, 2011)

Ahiru said:


> Because I told him not to. He would say, "Well, I guess I should stop having female friends then," and I said no. So he did exactly as I asked.
> 
> I will have to ask for clarification on what he meant by that.
> 
> ...


You know sometimes it is not so much what you say as it is the _way_ in which you say it. So when he said "Well, I guess I should stop having female friends then,". . . did he say it in a 'I want you to be happy and if that is what it takes then that is what I will do' kind of way. . . . . .or did he say it in a kind of 'well if you are going to keep *****in about it and bringing it up every five minutes then fine I will give them up' kind of way. 

There are state and locally run government agencies where you can get free counseling. 
And a lot of larger churches will offer counseling at little to no charge, I guess how you feel about religion determines if you want to go that route. Actually I do know of some churches that have contacted with counseling agencies to provide counseling on a 'sliding fee' scale and those agencies are usually pretty good about keeping religion out of it. 

So while you were the friend and he had another girlfriend how was he with you? Did he act as if you were a romantic partner and did he confide in you about things he should have discussed with this girlfriend at that time?


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## Ahiru (Jun 1, 2011)

SadieBrown said:


> You know sometimes it is not so much what you say as it is the _way_ in which you say it. So when he said "Well, I guess I should stop having female friends then,". . . did he say it in a 'I want you to be happy and if that is what it takes then that is what I will do' kind of way. . . . . .or did he say it in a kind of 'well if you are going to keep *****in about it and bringing it up every five minutes then fine I will give them up' kind of way.
> 
> There are state and locally run government agencies where you can get free counseling.
> And a lot of larger churches will offer counseling at little to no charge, I guess how you feel about religion determines if you want to go that route. Actually I do know of some churches that have contacted with counseling agencies to provide counseling on a 'sliding fee' scale and those agencies are usually pretty good about keeping religion out of it.
> ...


Oh, definitely in the "I want to make you happy" way. He has never been argumentative about anything I ask of him. That is one of the very things that made me unsure of myself, because in the past, he has been one to accept unfair treatment from others and not stand up for himself (for example, some of the treatment by his ex was abusive, but he put up with it for a long time). I didn't know if many of the things I could've asked of him were fair to HIM, so I decided not to ask them until I figured that out. As I have started to figure some of it out, I am making it clear to him what is acceptable to me. I am interested in doing the right thing, not to be confused with being a pushover just because I won't make demands until I know they're reasonable.

I'd be all for counseling if we can find a free, nonreligious one. We can't afford more than free. 

Yes, while he had the girlfriend, I have now realized that my friendship with him was nothing less than emotional cheating. As I've mentioned, he and I used to be under the delusion that as long as there was no physical affair, nothing else we did could possibly be wrong. We both thought she was just being insecure when she was threatened by every female he so much as had in his range of vision (literally). Although he and I never expressed any feelings for each other than platonic ones during that time (he says he didn't have feelings, but I did have feelings), and we did not hold hands/kiss/have sex, we did have physical contact that wasn't proper, and deep emotional discussions. At times he secretly confided things to me about his relationship problems, looking for advice on how he could fix them, knowing that she wanted to keep those problems private. I erroneously thought I was doing nothing wrong because I wasn't trying to cheat with him or mess up their relationship. I have to believe they would've broken up even if he wasn't friends with me and other females, because their personalities were incompatible and each wanted something completely opposite out of life, not to mention some of her behavior was indeed abusive to him. But our behavior was wrong. I should not have had such a close friendship with him while he was in a relationship, especially because I developed feelings for him, period. Since realizing how inappropriate that behavior was, I have sent her an apology letter for the part I played. He is going to do the same.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Ahiru said:


> Oh, definitely in the "I want to make you happy" way. He has never been argumentative about anything I ask of him. That is one of the very things that made me unsure of myself, because in the past, he has been one to accept unfair treatment from others and not stand up for himself (for example, some of the treatment by his ex was abusive, but he put up with it for a long time). I didn't know if many of the things I could've asked of him were fair to HIM, so I decided not to ask them until I figured that out. As I have started to figure some of it out, I am making it clear to him what is acceptable to me. I am interested in doing the right thing, not to be confused with being a pushover just because I won't make demands until I know they're reasonable.
> 
> I'd be all for counseling if we can find a free, nonreligious one. We can't afford more than free.
> 
> Yes, while he had the girlfriend, I have now realized that my friendship with him was nothing less than emotional cheating. As I've mentioned, he and I used to be under the delusion that as long as there was no physical affair, nothing else we did could possibly be wrong. We both thought she was just being insecure when she was threatened by every female he so much as had in his range of vision (literally). Although he and I never expressed any feelings for each other than platonic ones during that time (he says he didn't have feelings, but I did have feelings), and we did not hold hands/kiss/have sex, we did have physical contact that wasn't proper, and deep emotional discussions. At times he secretly confided things to me about his relationship problems, looking for advice on how he could fix them, knowing that she wanted to keep those problems private. I erroneously thought I was doing nothing wrong because I wasn't trying to cheat with him or mess up their relationship. I have to believe they would've broken up even if he wasn't friends with me and other females, because their personalities were incompatible and each wanted something completely opposite out of life, not to mention some of her behavior was indeed abusive to him. But our behavior was wrong. I should not have had such a close friendship with him while he was in a relationship, especially because I developed feelings for him, period. Since realizing how inappropriate that behavior was, I have sent her an apology letter for the part I played. He is going to do the same.


That's not the point. Cheat with me cheat on me - comes to mind. Clueless as he claims to be, he can move forward romantically with someone he claims to be just a friend. These other girls are you 
a few years ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadieBrown (Mar 16, 2011)

golfergirl said:


> That's not the point. Cheat with me cheat on me - comes to mind. Clueless as he claims to be, he can move forward romantically with someone he claims to be just a friend. These other girls are you
> a few years ago.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

That is why I asked if he had a girlfriend during the time you were friends with him. You know that he is perfectly capable of having an emtionial affair that leads to something else. He did it with you. That is why his having female friends bothers you.


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## marilee (Jul 24, 2009)

You seem like a very intelligent, thoughtful, nice person. I think you already know that this relationship has future heartache written all over it. 

Your boyfriend has a knight in shining armor complex and a complete lack of appropriate relationship boundaries. He is like the poster child for the guy who will end up having multiple emotional affairs without ever "meaning" for them to happen. 

Marriage can be hard sometimes. When your future husband has such lax boundaries and multiple extremely close female friends who he can easily turn to to complain about his wife - that's incredibly dangerous. One little problem in your marriage and he will end up feeling closer to one of the other women than he does to you. 

Be very careful about moving forward with this guy. I wouldn't. 

My husband shares your boyfriends boundary issues and, despite what I thought was a relatively happy marriage, ended up having an emotional affair that he didn't even RECOGNIZE as an emotional affair until it was almost too late. And by the time he realized that he had let things get out of hand it was REALLY out of hand, lots of strong feelings. It's almost worse when they "don't mean it" or are "innocent". Because then it "just happened" and there is no accountability and no way to prevent it from happening again. It's awful, trust me on this.


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## Ahiru (Jun 1, 2011)

I appreciate and agree with your comments. I was coming to the same conclusions, but wanted some second opinions to confirm I was on the right track - and for him to read as well, because it has been helping him understand better by hearing this from more and more people.

He has definitely been realizing over the course of the last few months that these close relationships are inappropriate, and understanding why, and we continue to talk about it and take advantage of other resources. We had a long discussion about it last night, and I found out that he's not close with any of his female friends right now. He hasn't seen any of them or spoken more than a few sentences of small talk in weeks and weeks, and looking back, there are no signs he's not being honest. Plus he's never lied or hid things from me before, ever.

When I posted here, I realize I spoke as if nothing had let up, and these friendships were in full force with no sign of pulling back, but it turns out that's not accurate. So I think my guy deserves more credit for taking initiative.  I just wanted to portray the situation how it was at its worst, because if it's been established that it's possible to get that bad, I think it's important to consider future worst case scenarios that could arise from this precedent.

As of now, he is going to immediately sever his friendships with two of the women that I am sure have feelings for him, and he says he believes me. He agrees with me that these women are not even his friends anyway, because if they develop feelings for him, they cease to be friends. He doesn't want that in his life, or needlessly complicating our life together. He's already drifted apart from any other of the new female friends he had on this side of the country. The only reason those two women weren't completely out of his life is because they kept initiating contact while he was all but ignoring them. So he's going to make things clear to them.

He is not going to make any more new female friends. If we should be successful in implementing proper boundaries, then at that point, we will both start making new friends together. He's not going to look for them independently anymore.

As for his old female friends, I think the emotional boundaries are proper and I'm not concerned. The one friend who I mentioned was crossing way over the line: emotional boundaries are stable, he has untagged himself from any of her facebook photos with her that are improper to display, and we will be working on the physical boundaries for use the next time he happens to see her (she is moving to a different state nowhere near us or his family, so I can't foresee them coming across each other for any reason any time soon). We discussed her behavior last night. I don't know her, so at worst, she has feelings and doesn't want us together, and at best, she's very immature. She's the only one of his old friends that has never been engaged or married; apparently she's had bad luck in love. So I think she has a maturity issue, and could be why she doesn't have or respect boundaries. She just doesn't understand why they're there. She's still acting like she did in high school, not realizing that this behavior has no place in adulthood among people in committed relationships. We are in agreement that even if the best case scenario is true, and she is simply immature, if her behavior is causing strain on our relationship, she is not a good friend and should not be in our lives until she can respect us to our satisfaction.

We will continue to learn together (we are not planning a wedding any time soon, in case people were concerned that I was going to jump into marriage without resolving these things). And we both feel much better now that we've come to some solid conclusions and taken action. We feel closer and I am even feeling extra affection from him. 

I have great hope that this issue will be fully resolved and I believe I will not regret moving forward with him. As much as I have written about the negatives in our relationship, I could write 100 times more about all of the positives. I honestly feel very lucky to have a relationship this wonderful. And the reason I believe we have a really good chance and these issues aren't going to ruin us is because he is making the changes because he wants to, not because I told him to. He wants these changes for himself, as well as for us. He believes this is an issue of his maturity, and sees this as not only bettering our relationship, but as a long overdue opportunity for personal growth. He thinks he should've learned these things a long time ago, if not for some unique circumstances in his past that enforced different ideas of what was acceptable. He is getting it now.

Thank you all for your honesty and thoroughness, you have been very helpful. I hope this conversation helps someone else going through something similar.


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## Locard (May 26, 2011)

As a general rule of thumb, someone who can only manage to get along with members of the opposite sex is someone I would not gamble a relationship with.

I'm pretty sure that there must be plenty of exceptions to this, somewhere, I just wouldn't be the one to test the hypothesis.


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