# Husband not sure I can move on after his affair



## so_conflicted

Hi Newbie here, I apologize in advance if I don't use/know all the right acronyms.

My husband of 14 years told me about 6 months ago that he was unhappy and felt like he just needed to be on his own, after I made a comment about if he ever smoked pot (which had recently become legal in our state) that he could expect a divorce. I was kidding about the divorce part, but the comment hit him pretty hard as another attempt at me controlling one more aspect of his life. I have to admit that I am a very controlling person and have been extremely jealous, especially early in our marriage about him spending time away from the family, even with my own brother. He has told me throughout our marriage that I make him feel like he is always "walking on eggshells or on his tippy-toes" I control the money which is also an issue. He is by far the main earner in our family, I was a SAHM for 8 years and now that I work he makes about 5 times what I do. He has always been welcome to be part of our finances but only shows interest for brief periods and they goes back to me doing everything. 

About 2 months ago, I found (by accident, I've always trusted him) phone records of my husband texting a number very frequently, but only times that he was away from home, never on the weekend. When I confronted him he admitted that it was a female colleague and that he had been confiding in about our marriage being in trouble. When I asked if he was having an affair he said only texting but that it could be considered an emotional affair. I asked him to stop that immediately as long as we are still married I felt that was inappropriate. We had a huge talk about how he feels. He said that he has never been on his own. He moved in with me right out of his parents house and we were married with a child by the time he was 23. He feels like his parents controlled everything about his life then he went to me controlling everything about his life. He feels that at 38 years old he's never done anything on his own terms. So after a long discussion we decided to try to work on our marriage and I would try to be less controlling. Besides, financially it would be very difficult on us to separate. We both said we would pay off bills and see where our feelings were in a few months and decide then if we should separate. Things started to get REALLY good! We were getting along great, he starting talking about our future again and said things to me like "were working through this" when I bring the issue of where we were headed. I was trying very hard to be more relaxed about everything and not make him feel like he had to report to me.
Fast forward to this weekend. I couldn't stand it anymore, I had to ask if he was still close with this woman or if the "friendship" had fizzled after the texting had stoppped. He told me "We work together and she's a great person who was there for me, I didn't cut her off as a friend" He said that he didn't want to end the friendship because that's all they are at this point. I told him didn't like that and we both went to bed upset.
The next morning I started up with questions again and he finally confessed that back when they were texting all the time it had escalated into a PA. They met at her place for "lunch" several times. He said that once I confronted him about the texts and we started working on things he ended it immediately out of extreme guilt for doing that to me because I was being so amazing at home and had really changed after our talk. He says the only reason he did it was because when the PA started he thought our marriage was virtually over at that point. BTW he cried and apologized and said that I don't deserve what he did. He knows that it's "all on him" and "I screwed up"
I am devastated. He started packing as soon as he admitted it. I stopped him and said "arent we going to work this out" he said that he assumed I would never want to based on previous comments i've made about infidelityI've always said that if he ever cheated we would be over no questions asked. But now that it's actually happened, I do want to work this out, and told him so. He was COMPLETELY shocked. However, he isn't sure that with my controlling ways that he wants to because he thinks I will never forgive him or let it go and that we will spend the rest of our lives miserable with me hanging this over his head and him walking on egg shells again. He said he is split, half wants to stay and work it out but the other half thinks it's impossible for me to get past what he did. He said maybe this relationship is too broken. I told him I am already changing based on the way things have been going recently (before he admitted the affair) and that I want to be less controlling from this point forward.
He swears the affair is over but wants to still be friends with her at the office only, just like his is with anyone he works with male or female. He says they've been plutonic since I confronted him on the texting and he ended things physically and that it's been working fine strictly as friends and she has no problem with that. He said he's even told her how great things were going between us.
What do I do? Do I work on this even though he said he would try but is unsure? He said that today at work he is going to tell her that he admitted it to me and remind her that they are only friends and that he is focused on working on our marriage. I don't want to give up but if I tell him I need him to give me access to everything (which I already have except his work email) he's going to feel like he's back on eggshells. I told him that when it comes to her he deserves to be on eggshells. But the only way to fix our marriage is for me to loosen the control I've had over him but that couldn't come at a worse time now that I know he cheated. Help please!


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## rrrbbbttt

1. He cannot be friends with her.
2. He has to write a NC letter.
3. He needs to find a new job away from her.
4. Your controlling attitude is not a reason for an affair.
5. Do you want to live life without the knowledge that your husband is faithful to you. His actions require you to now checkup on him.


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## highwood

This will never ever work with them still seeing each other at work. Do the 180 on him..he sounds like he wants to keep her around in case you guys do not work out.

If you allow him to keep in contact with her you are losing all of your dignity in order to keep this guy in your life.

I do not buy that she is okay with him working on his marriage..give me a friggin break. She is involved with him, she probably has feelings for him, she would not give up that easily..this is probably a ploy that they thought up so you would think that they are over each other.


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## so_conflicted

I agree that my control issues are not a reason for an affair. He says they are the reason he told me months before the affair began that he wants to be on his own. I must say that he mentioned wanting out once or twice before during our 14 years together and I always listened and went back to controlling everything. He says the affair happened because he thought the marriage was over because he wanted out and didn't think I would/could ever change based on the past. Then when I did change he felt guilty, ended the affair and wanted to try to work on things until now when he admitted the affair and thinks that I will never get past it.
I'm scared that he won't give up the friendship since he is already so conflicted about us having a real chance at working through this as it is. He has periodically looked for a new job before (because he wanted to) but always changed his mind because he has such great benefits at his current employer. BTW she has only been with the company for under a year so the decision to stay was not based on her.
I like the idea of a letter. I asked him for a promise that it was over and that it would never happen again which he gave me, but putting it in writing somehow makes it more real.


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## calmwinds

"He swears the affair is over but wants to still be friends with her at the office only, just like his is with anyone he works with male or female"

Ask him if he made a habit of sticking his spare parts into everyone else at the office, too.


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## badmemory

I hate to tell you this OP, but if he thinks you were controlling before, he ain't seen nothing yet, if you do what you should do.

My take is that he's playing you. He's using your "controlling" to blame shift for his PA and to avoid rightful consequences after he's been caught. Don't fall for it.

He can't continue to work with her, period. You can give him a reasonable amount of time to work out which one of them leaves the job; but it has to be one of them. In the mean time, no contact. None. Including a no contact letter to her that you review.

That has to come first, before anything else. If he refuses, do the 180 on him (find the link), let him leave this time, and file for D. If he later complies and you still want to R, then you can consider delaying the D, but move toward it as if it was inevitable.

If he stops all contact with her, does the NC letter and agrees to one of them leaving the job, check back here for further advice.

Sorry you're here, but you've come to the right place.


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## so_conflicted

He said she was fine with being friends because she didn't want to be a home wrecker, too late! Here's something I forgot to mention, when he was packing up immediately after admitting. I asked where he would go and he said that she said that she has a 2 bdrm apt and that she told him that if things ever got bad he could stay there temporarily, even in the spare room if he wanted. He kept swearing that they are only friends now and that he doesn't feel right cutting her out of his life completely because she was there for him when we were having a hard time and that they can and are friends. I'm sick over this. 
He also said that NO ONE at work knows about this and that when they go to work events (the company sponsors a monthly off-site thing, like bowling or baseballs games etc. which he sends me the company invitation email to confirm that it is a company event) that they don't hang out together they don't want anyone to know what they've done.
I'm afraid to lose him because of our children because of finances, and because I love him. I worry that if I push these ultimatums/demands that I will lose him because of his fear of control from they way I've been all these years that he was honest.


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## cledus_snow

you're being given good advice.

the only thing i can ad is, you must be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it. these demands/ultimatums you speak of(he cannot be friends with her, NC letter, find a new job) are necessary to break up the affair. 




> He also said that *NO ONE at work knows about this* and that when they go to work events (the company sponsors a monthly off-site thing, like bowling or baseballs games etc. which he sends me the company invitation email to confirm that it is a company event) *that they don't hang out together* they don't want anyone to know what they've done.


i'm not so sure about this.


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## so_conflicted

Thank you for the advice everyone. My husband actually told me to sleep on it and tell him in a day or two if I really thought I could get past this. 
I think I will have to give him these demands and let the chips fall where they may, but I am so scared to death. I don't want to put my kids through this, I don't want to face everyone I know and have to admit a failed marriage, which I know I contributed to (although I know I in no way caused this affair) through my control issues. I want to take this pothole and turn it around into a successful happy marriage. I just want to fix us, not give him demands that I KNOW will break us for good.
I actually love my life as it is, with the exception of this sickening affair. I guess I'm just not good at letting go even if I should. I am so sad right now, knowing what I have to do and what the likely result will be.


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## highwood

My H had an EA (not even a PA) with a woman who lived in another country overseas and even with her not even being close to where we live this has been difficult for me..in your situation with him seeing her every day, yikes..all i can say is you are in for a very rough road ahead. 

I am sorry you are here but this is going to be hell for you. I think right now you are in a "desperate to save marriage" fog. Once that wears off you will wonder how you could compromise your dignity. Believe me your paranoia and anger will only grow with time.

Right now you are acting out of desperation and your H knows it...I suspect give it a couple of months and he will be back in her bed and they will be laughing about how they fooled you into thinking they were just friends now.


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## so_conflicted

I know that you all are giving great advice and I would probably give the same advice to a friend. I am just so scared right now of losing everything I know about my life and trying to convince myself that this can be saved. But deep down I know that it is extremely unlikely that he will cut off all communication with her and quit his job (or ask her to.) I think I just need a little bit of time with this. The admission just happened yesterday and as highwood said, I probably am in a "desperate to save marriage fog" 
I just can't get myself to give up on us yet. I hope the fog will lift soon or that he'll decide he wants "us" enough to do everything in his power to save our marriage.


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## barbados

highwood said:


> This will never ever work with them still seeing each other at work.


:iagree:

He (or she) must find another job ASAP. If they see each other every day at work, the A will not end !


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## mg2977

First, I am so sorry you are here. This is the club no one wants to join. I do not have the expertise that many of the other posters have, but if you look for my thread (click on my name), you will see I am/have dealt with a PA affair between my H and a subordinate. 

First, I know you are scared and in shock, but now is the time to be the Alpha in this situation. You need to show him you will not put up with this and the fact that he was so willing to leave and stay with her is very telling. He wants you to not give him any demands, that way he can still be a cake eater. 

I would not believe the A is over nor would I believe that the OW does not want to be a home wrecker, trust me she does not care about you or your children. Cheaters are selfish! Just imagine that she has been disparaging you, your habits, your marriage for months now and your husband has allowed it (that is the ultimate insult/hurt), she has probably done everything in her power to separate you two, but he has let her. She sees you as Enemy No.1 and wants you out of the picture, so she can have your H to herself. 

So if this is a workplace affair, is there a policy against co-workers engaging is sexual relationships? Does the OW have a boyfriend? I think you need to give your H strict boundaries asap (NC, NC letter, look for a new job, complete transparency etc) and if he refuses, either separate or file for divorce. 

I would also expose the A to your families, very close friends of the marriage and his workplace. If you do not expose, he will later tell people you are divorcing bc you are too controlling - he is already setting this scenario up. Basically, he may be setting up the scenario that you were having marital issues, the OW was just someone he could confide in, then when you separate or D, all of a sudden he will be dating her and will tell people that their close friendship led them to "fall in love". Also if you attempt to R, be prepared for him to give you minimal effort, then say (again) you will never get over the A, so the marriage is over and then he will feel justified in his involvement with the OW bc hey he tried to fix his marriage, but it was all your fault bc you were controlling and could not get over it. He may set himself up to be the victim and your the perpetrator. So expose! 

If you are going to D, you may not want to cause him trouble at work, but if you want any hope of R, you need to expose especially at work. Some might think it is too much, but talk to a lawyer (without telling your H), file for D, expose at his office, then serve your H with D papers when he is at work. I would also possibly subpoena the OW (serve her at their office as well) bc that would not only put a kink in their fantasy land by outing them at work, but also if he thinks or does move in with her and has spent money on her that may be considered in your financial settlement should you divorce. If your H has given her money this could be seen a dissipation of marital assets or possibly marital waste. A lawyer in your jurisdiction would tell you more. Remember just because you file for D, does not mean you are D.

I think that possibly the more aggressive you are and if you take charge, the more likely you may recover your marriage. I made a lot of mistakes in the beginning and one of my regrets is not being more aggressive when I first suspected. Your marriage can survive a job loss or embarrassment, but it will not survive infidelity! 

I am in D proceedings now, but I do not regret making my H and OW uncomfortable at all considering the abuse I endured from them.

Oh and I am sure everyone at their workplace knows, your H just is either telling you that or he may be like my H, so delusional that he believes people do not know.


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## so_conflicted

sorry to seem so naive, but with the no contact....
Is that a letter he gives OW or is that a letter/agreement he gives me?
Also, I tried to find the 180 without much luck, will someone give me a link or a brief description?
Thank you


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## badmemory

so_conflicted said:


> Thank you for the advice everyone. My husband actually told me to sleep on it and tell him in a day or two if I really thought I could get past this.
> I think I will have to give him these demands and let the chips fall where they may, but I am so scared to death. I don't want to put my kids through this, I don't want to face everyone I know and have to admit a failed marriage, which I know I contributed to (although I know I in no way caused this affair) through my control issues. *I want to take this pothole and turn it around into a successful happy marriage. I just want to fix us, not give him demands that I KNOW will break us for good.*
> I actually love my life as it is, with the exception of this sickening affair. I guess I'm just not good at letting go even if I should. I am so sad right now, knowing what I have to do and what the likely result will be.


conflicted,

You have a chance to save your marriage, but your husband has to demonstrate remorse with his every action. He has shown that he can't be trusted, so right now, you'll have to judge that remorse on what he does, not what he says. He needs to understand that he must do the heavy lifting if there is to be R. No blame shifting, open communication about it anytime you want to talk about it. Total transparency with all his communication devices and accountability for his time away from you. 

He MUST have strong consequences in order for you to judge that remorse. If he agrees to the job changes, that's your starting point. But I'll repeat, he can't be in a position to see her at all, much less everyday.

You also need to expose the A, to your family, his family, and if this OM has a husband or boyfriend, to him. He won't like it, but that's part of showing his remorse. He definitely won't like it if you report his affair to his work place. That's something that you can hold in your hip pocket for now. Obviously, him getting fired won't help you if you go through a D, but don't take anything off the table right now. You're fighting for your marriage.

Exposure will make it all the more unlikely that the affair will continue once it's brought to the light of day, so that is an important part of those consequences.

You have to show him a strong resolve. Don't allow him to rug sweep this. I and many others have been where you're at. Some of this advice may seem counter-intuitive right now because you're in a fog of your own, but don't back down. I'll also repeat what another poster offered. *You have to be willing to end your marriage to have a chance to save it.*

Keep posting.


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## cledus_snow

both of you have to be on the same page in regards to the NC letter. it makes no sense if you send it, while your husband is still pursuing this woman. i seriously don't know how this is gonna work if they still work together. 

your husband is still "on the fence" in regards to your marriage. you need to knock him off it before you follow through with your NC demands.


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## so_conflicted

Should I even ask him how the "talk" with her about him focusing on saving our marriage went today or just assume it's all going to lies if he doesn't agree to the NC letter, stopping all contact and one of them switching jobs ASAP?
BTW she is only 23 and at her first "real" job, if she is the loser I've made her out to be in my mind, maybe she'll move on to someone else at the company if H stops giving her his attention? They work for a very large company with multiple buildings on a large campus. Is a transfer enough to kill an affair or does it require a new employer entirely?
Our finances at very tight and we are finally at the point where we are getting close to having some breathing room and I just don't see how we can afford attorneys. We just aren't there yet. We might have to stay together at least until July just to survive separately financially speaking.


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## badmemory

so_conflicted said:


> sorry to seem so naive, but with the no contact....
> Is that a letter he gives OW or is that a letter/agreement he gives me?
> Also, I tried to find the 180 without much luck, will someone give me a link or a brief description?
> Thank you


He writes a no contact letter to her that you review and mail yourself. No sentimentality, just to the point. There should be a sample of one in the newbies link. 

The 180 is very important for you if he doesn't agree to your requirements. Mainly it's for you, as a way to help you detach; but sometimes it has the added benefit of giving the CS an added dose of reality and waking them up. I'll try to find a link for you.


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## Calibre12

Expose it. Exposure is light to the roach affair. The faster you do it, the better, like on Cheaterville or She's a Homewrecker, etc. Expose her, even anonymously, as if you are a friend of your own, since you are still married to him. His behavior and reactions will give you the answers you need and will send her running (like a roach). The woman is a homewrecker. Your husband was under your control, now he is under hers. He is a "follower" type of guy, not the leader type. Just an observation, not a criticism. Conveniently, she has a two in one bedroom apt. Ludicrous! So his clothes will sleep in the spare bedroom, I'm sure.

You are an amazing woman! I greatly admire your self control.


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## happyman64

So-Conflicted

You are being given good advice and your H's affair is on him.



> I'm afraid to lose him because of our children because of finances, and because I love him. I worry that if I push these ultimatums/demands that I will lose him because of his fear of control from they way I've been all these years that he was honest.


And you have every right to feel this way. He has valid issues and so do you.

But nothing you did gave him the right to cheat so be aware of that.

JMO but did you tell him that you appreciated him being honest with you about the A.... That might actually shock him and get him to think even higher of you.

ANd if you love him like you said above tell him that too. 

You have every right to enforce boundaries in your relationship. *But he has to be mature to understand that good boundaries are what make marriages strong and what makes good marriages long!!!*


Good Luck

HM64


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## badmemory

The 180:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.


2 things to think about if you do this:

1) You have to do the 180 list NOT to be manipulative but because it's the right thing to do for you. You have to heal from this experience. You have to back off for your own sanity now. You have to have a plan and know that you will be a better person with or without them after all is said and done -- that you will live and learn and move on no matter what. So you have to be geniune when you follow these ideas, rather than faking it and being insincere because your only goal is to get them back. That's not what you want to do. Having a certain person as our spouse is not a need, it's a want. When I wrote down a list of all the definite needs in my life, I realized that almost everything beyond food, clothing and shelter is a want. 10 seconds after I looked at the list, I stopped making decisions based on emotion. That's when I realized that my wanting to have her was causing me to beg and plead for her to come back. That was driving her away more so I stopped doing it immediately. In doing my own version of the 180 list I could tell nearly an immediate change in her behavior.

2) Realize that when your spouse sees your new attitude they are very likely to be a little jealous or at least have some curiosity about what's going on in your life to cause this change. However, they very well may react the same way towards you for some time (especially if they read books or go to message boards also). REALIZE that this tactic can also work simultaneously on you if the spouse begins to likewise. Be aware of it and plan to have your own feelings of jealousy and curiosity in advance. However, like with #1 above, if you're doing the 180 list to better yourself and everyone involved, then it will matter less what they are doing.


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## sandc

You may be controlling but he sounds slightly manipulative.

You've already gotten some great advice. Here are some other insights.

He wanted to move out to give himself more time to see her. He doesn't want to go NC with her because the affair is still ongoing. The things that will kill the affair may kill your finances too so not sure about how to advise there. 

At a minimum he has to write the NC letter and give it to you to proof-read. He has to leave his job and look for another. If he won't quit or look for another job you could always threaten to inform his HR department. He is putting the company at risk by his actions. She could sue them for sexual harassment. Best case is they would fire her and put your husband in a dead-end job if you exposed to HR.

You could expose to friends and family. This helps put pressure on him to stop.

If you can't do those things then I agree that the 180 would be a good step. This helps him understand what it is he's losing. It also means you need to quit being controlling. Only talk about the kids, no idle-chit chat, and you start going out and doing things too. Not marriage endangering things, just fun things for you.


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## badmemory

so_conflicted said:


> *Should I even ask him how the "talk" with her about him focusing on saving our marriage went today or just assume it's all going to lies if he doesn't agree to the NC letter, stopping all contact and one of them switching jobs ASAP?*
> BTW she is only 23 and at her first "real" job, if she is the loser I've made her out to be in my mind, maybe she'll move on to someone else at the company if H stops giving her his attention? They work for a very large company with multiple buildings on a large campus. Is a transfer enough to kill an affair or does it require a new employer entirely?
> Our finances at very tight and we are finally at the point where we are getting close to having some breathing room and I just don't see how we can afford attorneys. We just aren't there yet. We might have to stay together at least until July just to survive separately financially speaking.


Your priority, and now his, is that contact ends immediately. He needs to do something to at least avoid that contact at work until a permanent solution comes about. If he agrees, ask him what that will be. His conversations with her do nothing toward that end, and are in fact - continued contact. That's something you shouldn't be accepting.


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## so_conflicted

I actually had never heard of the 180 until today, but did something VERY similar to it on my own after I discovered the texts. I got his attention for sure! That's when he ended the PA (which I may be stupid but I actually believe, although I am fairly confident the EA is still going full force) and then began to talk about us working through things instead of ending things once we were financially stable. He liked the new, laid back, happy me. I liked the new me! I had planned to continue down that path but had to verify that they were no longer having an EA (which was what I thought the extent of it was) when he finally admitted that there had been a PA that he ended when I did the 180.

So, what now.... I've gotten so much good advice but my head is sort of spinning from the last 24 hours. 
Do I give the list of demands first? 
Do I go back to the 180 before I list my demands (I've been pretty down and needy since he admitted yesterday)?
Do I expose? How? 
I know if I expose him our marriage is over. He can withstand the humiliation of people knowing what he did, I think, but he won't want to stay with me if I do that to him. He'll be too angry. HR won't care. Work affairs/relationships happen all the time at his company. Many of them are legitimate, honest relationships that develop into marriage and the company has no problem with it. 
I appreciate all the advice, so much! I just don't know which order to follow it in. Everyone seems to be saying pretty much the same thing but with a slightly different focus.


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## so_conflicted

LanieB,

Yes! He said that things were over between them, they are now just friends but that she said her door was open if he ever needed a place to crash. I said "so, you want to be with her?" he said no that it was over, "we are only friends now, I even told her how good things have been going at home" but he also said that if he did move in with her temporarily because we were over, he could see how it could easily go back to what it was when they were texting/PA. 
I just can't get my head around all of this! I feel positive about working it out and being strong and giving him demands and the 180 one minute and then I go back to feeling scared, helpless and needy the next and wanting to do anything not to let this marriage go. UGH! Please tell me you all have been on this emotional roller coaster and that I am not as weak as I feel right now.


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## alte Dame

First of all, the two of them are not over - to them, they are star-crossed lovers living a sad romance where your H is sacrificing for his marriage. They see each other every day and are 'special friends.'

I would bet that he wanted to sleep with her and decided conveniently that your controlling ways were just at that point too much for him to bear. So, it's not your controlling that drove the poor man into his lover's arms, but his desire to have sex with her that suddenly made your terrible personality trait impossible.

If they are working together, your M can't recover. If he leaves and goes to 'crash' with her, your M is done.

I would tell him that you have done your homework about recovering from infidelity and the first rule is no contact between the affair partners. This isn't you being controlling; this is standard, expert advice. I would also say that if he can't agree to that and goes to live with her, then you are done. 

I know you are scared, but there is unfortunately not much you can do about that. He has been involved with another woman. You can't make that fact go away. Your best shot at recovering your M is to demand NC and do a 180 to help yourself. You then deal with his response the best you can.


----------



## highwood

alte Dame said:


> First of all, the two of them are not over - to them, they are star-crossed lovers living a sad romance where your H is sacrificing for his marriage. They see each other every day and are 'special friends.'
> 
> I would bet that he wanted to sleep with her and decided conveniently that your controlling ways were just at that point too much for him to bear. So, it's not your controlling that drove the poor man into his lover's arms, but his desire to have sex with her that suddenly made your terrible personality trait impossible.
> 
> If they are working together, your M can't recover. If he leaves and goes to 'crash' with her, your M is done.
> 
> I would tell him that you have done your homework about recovering from infidelity and the first rule is no contact between the affair partners. This isn't you being controlling; this is standard, expert advice. I would also say that if he can't agree to that and goes to live with her, then you are done.
> 
> I know you are scared, but there is unfortunately not much you can do about that. He has been involved with another woman. You can't make that fact go away. Your best shot at recovering your M is to demand NC and do a 180 to help yourself. You then deal with his response the best you can.


I agree I think there is something naughty about going behind the BS's back...I think it just adds to the excitement of it for them. Believe me if your H was to leave you for this woman very quickly that would wear off and then the OW would be the controlling *****.


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## sandc

so_conflicted said:


> I actually had never heard of the 180 until today, but did something VERY similar to it on my own after I discovered the texts. I got his attention for sure! That's when he ended the PA (which I may be stupid but I actually believe, although I am fairly confident the EA is still going full force) and then began to talk about us working through things instead of ending things once we were financially stable. He liked the new, laid back, happy me. I liked the new me! I had planned to continue down that path but had to verify that they were no longer having an EA (which was what I thought the extent of it was) when he finally admitted that there had been a PA that he ended when I did the 180.
> 
> So, what now.... I've gotten so much good advice but my head is sort of spinning from the last 24 hours.
> Do I give the list of demands first?
> Do I go back to the 180 before I list my demands (I've been pretty down and needy since he admitted yesterday)?
> Do I expose? How?
> I know if I expose him our marriage is over. He can withstand the humiliation of people knowing what he did, I think, but he won't want to stay with me if I do that to him. He'll be too angry. HR won't care. Work affairs/relationships happen all the time at his company. Many of them are legitimate, honest relationships that develop into marriage and the company has no problem with it.
> I appreciate all the advice, so much! I just don't know which order to follow it in. Everyone seems to be saying pretty much the same thing but with a slightly different focus.


If you expose and he walks, then that's pretty much your answer as to where your marriage is at. Exposure is really only one of the effective ways of ending the affair.

You think HR won't care? Send them a certified letter informing them that your husband is having an affair with another employee and that you will be contacting an attorney for a possible alienation of affection lawsuit. They really don't want drama. I work at a newspaper and people get fired for affairs here. 

Lastly, one of the maxims of TAM is, you have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it. We know you want to save your marriage, but he has to think you'll be just fine without him.


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## so_conflicted

Thank you. I am going to confront him and demand the NC tonight when he gets home and start the 180, assuming he doesn't decide to just walk out. 
I agree that the OW would lose her excitement appeal quickly if he were to go live with her. I think she would bore of him quickly too, she's 23 and he's almost 40 with two kids (one who is in high school and this home wrecker just finished college!) and a mountain of debt.
I honestly feel that he truly craves independence and this affair made him feel like he was "his own man" (his favorite phrase) and the secrecy made it all the more exciting. I think the chances of them having something long term are zilch but it doesn't mean that he won't go to her if he doesn't want to accept the NC from me to get what what he needs physically and otherwise in the short term. He really needs a lot of control over his own life right now, I know it from everything he says and does.....but how do I give him what he needs and salvage our marriage at the same time? Is that even possible?


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## Remains

We have all (at least most of us) been on your emotional rollercoaster. It stinks! Your head will clear at some point between 3 weeks and 3 months. Hold on in there.

I think yours is a particularly difficult position due to the nature of your admitted controlling, and his, at times, wishes to end the marriage. I think the standard TAM advice needs to be toned down a little for your situation. I believe you still need the essence of it, just to be done in a slightly different way. 

All the things you need to do, which you have been given advice on so far, need to be delivered a little more sensitively. You still need to stand firm on what you need, absolutely stand firm, but done in such a way that makes it more his decision (i.e. Not just an excuse to say that you are controlling him again), if he wants to save the marriage and the better version of you. Does he want this, can he do some changing, can he take charge rather than just moan at you for being controlling?

Such as, 'in order for me to be able to continue working on myself and be able to be less controlling, which has now been made impossible due to you having an affair, I need certain things in place so that I can relax and move forward with us. But you need to accept these things as a consequence of the affair rather than my need to control you. Will you?'. And then put your needs down with him, and go through them with him in a way that he can separate the 2. 

Consequence of affair = change of job, no contact, honesty about where he is and what he is doing. Controlling, or less of it, means he takes more charge of finances, of taking care of his family rather than leaving you to do it all alone. Whatever it is that he feels controlled by, there needs to be some compromise. But....do not compromise on what is needed as consequences of his affair. He needs to know this from the outset. 

Read some books together. Not just friends by Shirley Glass is always recommended. Getting over/past the affair by William J Harvey (did I get that title and author right?) is another. 

I am not so sure the 180 is appropriate here, unless he digs his heals in on the consequences of the affair and him owning up to the fact that he was in the wrong, NOT you. 

Finally, the less needy you are, the more he will work at this. This translates into, you have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it. Show him the fact that you want to continue in the new you, but you can only do that if he puts in the same amount of effort to deal with the consequences of his stupid and damaging affair. If not, then he is free to walk. But you may not be there once he changes his mind...i.e. when she ditches him.


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## walkonmars

alte Dame said:


> First of all, the two of them are not over - to them, they are star-crossed lovers living a sad romance where your H is sacrificing for his marriage. They see each other every day and are 'special friends.'
> 
> I would bet that he wanted to sleep with her and decided conveniently that your controlling ways were just at that point too much for him to bear. So, it's not your controlling that drove the poor man into his lover's arms, but his desire to have sex with her that suddenly made your terrible personality trait impossible.
> 
> If they are working together, your M can't recover. If he leaves and goes to 'crash' with her, your M is done.
> 
> I would tell him that you have done your homework about recovering from infidelity and the first rule is no contact between the affair partners. This isn't you being controlling; this is standard, expert advice. I would also say that if he can't agree to that and goes to live with her, then you are done.
> 
> I know you are scared, but there is unfortunately not much you can do about that. He has been involved with another woman. You can't make that fact go away. Your best shot at recovering your M is to demand NC and do a 180 to help yourself. You then deal with his response the best you can.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:
Expert advice. Tough to swallow, but it must be done if you have any hope of reigning in this husband of yours who has turned into a manipulator of the first order.

He's itching to get back w her. If you don't act decisively now he will continue to dismantle your marriage bit by bit.

Bite the bullet. It's the only way. He must dump her - find another job if he must.


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## walkonmars

It's not a bad idea to see a family law atty too. Find out what his responsibilities are/will be in case of a divorce. 

One other thing, don't let him talk you into a trial separation. It's a free pass to fulfill his little fantasy while keeping you in the background. We call it eating cake.


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## so_conflicted

remains,
I agree that maybe because I've always made him feel under the microscope maybe I need to be slightly gentler about this, but not compromise on issues that surround OW. 
When I was doing a 180 he loved it! He loved that I wasn't so curious about everything, I was upbeat, I did my own thing but wasn't angry or upset with him for doing his. I want to do that again, but not about OW, I need to him to cut off all contact with her. When I asked for that (ending all contact) when he first admitted the PA yesterday he said "we are on the same team at work, I'm supposed to act like a school kid and pretend she's invisible unless it's strictly work related?" I agreed with him that would be extremely awkward, but I never thought to go so far as to ask him to switch jobs. That's huge and I think even more than the NC that will be the thing he scoffs at and ultimately ends the M. I honestly think he wants his freedom more than he wants me/our marriage (he has said he still wants to very involved with our girls and plans to still drive them to school daily etc.) I think if I make it easy for him to make M work he'll give it a go, if I make it hard he's out. He's just had enough of the control and this OW gives him a quick way out with her offer of a place to stay and favors on top of that.

So scared how my kids will take this, H and I get along VERY well, hardly ever argue and are normally very affectionate. This is going to blindside them BIGTIME, everyone thinks we are deliriously happy, which for the most part we were (I guess H wasn't completely but he sure did seem happy most of the time and always made references to how spoiled he was by me and how he got teased by his friends that they were going to be there to swoop in if he was ever stupid enough to leave or if he died. It's been a long running joke)
But back to the kids, this is going to turn their world upside down. They have no idea that anything has ever been off in our M and they will have to explain to friends who will be equally confused and move out of the only home they've ever know and adjust to being broke all the time. UGH, I hate that I might have to see them go through that.


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## sandc

You could just let him have his open marriage. Let him do whatever he wants.

I agree that you are in a horrible spot but you simply can't let this go on.


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## Acabado

If he can transfer there's no need to quit the job actually. This is just my opinion on it.
What really matters is NC must be for real. There's no such a this as to "stay friends" with the AP. Deep down he knows it's ridiculous, unacceptable. It goes beyond the risk of relinking the whole affair, it's the complete ongoing displayal of disrespect.

NC
Transparence
Full disclosure
Remorse, commitment.


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## alte Dame

It really appears from what you say that he was happy with your M until he met the OW & then suddenly you're way too controlling and he wants to be his own man. I think he is rewriting your marital history and he wants to be her man. I'm so sorry, but his behavior is not at all unique.

We all say 'no contact.' Unfortunately, you don't have a chance without it. There's always a chance that with him gone and you doing a 180, he will see what he is losing. If he stays and works closely on the same team with her, he won't be returning to your M as a full partner at all. He will probably just continue the A.

Also, you probably don't have the full truth about the A. Please remember that.


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## carpenoctem

He says you drove him to an affair (with a nicer, less controlling woman), by your controlling nature.

Now, if you and he must recover from the affair, as part of that process, you will have to do a lot of things (spy on, monitor, & verify) which under normal circumstances will be considered ‘controlling’, intrusive and even inculpatory.

*Which will in turn give more credence to his original complaint / rationalization – that you are controlling.*

*Damned if you don’t, damned if you do.*

A conundrum that perhaps an MC can unravel a little (basically because your husband might not deem what is ‘permitted’ by an MC as ‘controlling’ as per your inherent nature).



Wanting to keep it under wraps, wanting to be friends with her still, etc., usually indicates continuation by another game.

Him still working in the same office with her – you might as well send in a spare bed. When he reduces the degree of passion by 2, she will increase it by 4. And vice versa. It might in fact add to the taboo excitement.



Didn’t read all posts, so if this is repetitive, I apologize.


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## Remains

I think that because the marriage was so good, I agree, he is most likely rewriting your history somewhat. I was coming from the standpoint that it seemed you were saying that he has been on the verge of leaving several times over the years.

You do have to stand firm though. There are certain things that are absolutely necessary to combat an affair, and NC is one of the most fundamental. Staying 'friends' is not, NOT, an option. 

You need to be totally firm with him. Does he want this marriage? Is he prepared to do what's necessary? 

If the answers are yes, then move forward with putting things on place. If he is unsure, tell him he needs to be sure because you cannot do this alone....he had the affair, not you.

I would also remind him that if he leaves, you will assume he is leaving you for her. And that result won't be a pretty one. If he leaves, you will get on with the rest of your life without him. He won't have a choice to move on with you anymore. You do really need to show him the consequences for him to really believe them. This is serious, and needs to be treated as such.


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## LongWalk

So_conflicted, you have arrived at a good understanding of your situation rather quickly. As Zugswang articulated it, part of the problem is that killing the affair and becoming less controlling pull you in opposite directions.

Your husband is getting 23-year-old pvssy and that has got to be an enormous trip for his almost 40-year-old ego. If it were with a colleague closer in age and life experience, you’d dealing with some more real competitive threat. This woman a Disneyland ride. He’ll resent being jerked off.

She is making him feel that his value on the reproductive market is great. Cool that you can see that the ride won’t last. He probably knows it, too. Will he feel on top of the world if D becomes reality? The financial pressure alone could cause erectile dysfunction. 

As far as leading goes, he is not really leading much now. This young woman is probably letting him decide a lot of things in their relationship, but these are only related to the affair, e.g.,, where and how they have sex. She probably does not want to become Dad’s girlfriend in the eyes of your children. Being step mom is even more unpalatable.

Your husband is going to be a wreck when the consequences become apparent to him.

Trying to restore intimacy will be hard. Did your sex life drop off suddenly when the A started?

NC is must. Would you consider meeting this woman face to face to calmly spell out how this situation is going to suck for everyone? She should look for a new job asap. Your husband should state that in the NC letter.

Ask your H if you can bring men home to have sex with you, just to make it fair.

Your husband does have to be more controlling of his life in a responsible way. Tell him you shouldn't have to do all the work of reconciliation. He has to lead the way.


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## Foolish1

> I know if I expose him our marriage is over. He can withstand the humiliation of people knowing what he did, I think, but he won't want to stay with me if I do that to him. He'll be too angry.


I thought this too, but it was not true in my case. My H got a bit upset but not much. And he is very, very against bringing people into our troubles. Try to frame the exposure that you're helping your marriage and him. In the message I sent his family I strongly pointed out that we both contributed to the many problems in our marriage, and I wanted to work it out but knew it couldn't survive with a third person in the mix. I ended by saying I didn't expect their support for me personally, but just wanted them to support him. This may be risky if you don't have a good relationship with his family, but it worked for me.

Things may or may not work out if you expose, there is uncertainty. There is no uncertainty if you don't expose though ... it is guaranteed not to work.



so_conflicted said:


> UGH! Please tell me you all have been on this emotional roller coaster and that I am not as weak as I feel right now.


This is very normal. You have to be strong to deal with this. I still break down most days and I'm 3 months out from my H having a short EA. It's tough! Just take the advice here and do the best you can, don't beat yourself up, just keep moving forward.


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## BetrayedAgain7

alte Dame said:


> First of all, the two of them are not over - to them, they are star-crossed lovers living a sad romance where your H is sacrificing for his marriage. They see each other every day and are 'special friends.'
> 
> I would bet that he wanted to sleep with her and decided conveniently that your controlling ways were just at that point too much for him to bear. So, it's not your controlling that drove the poor man into his lover's arms, but his desire to have sex with her that suddenly made your terrible personality trait impossible.
> 
> If they are working together, your M can't recover. If he leaves and goes to 'crash' with her, your M is done.
> 
> I would tell him that you have done your homework about recovering from infidelity and the first rule is no contact between the affair partners. This isn't you being controlling; this is standard, expert advice. I would also say that if he can't agree to that and goes to live with her, then you are done.
> 
> I know you are scared, but there is unfortunately not much you can do about that. He has been involved with another woman. You can't make that fact go away. Your best shot at recovering your M is to demand NC and do a 180 to help yourself. You then deal with his response the best you can.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: 
This is a good post. I am new here, but have been reading this forum for days because your (OP) and my situation is uncannily similar and I'm just about crazy with indecision. This thread is helping me into the clear light; this post in particular.
Thank you!


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## mg2977

I do not know you but I really think your H's issue with you being controlling is only rewriting your marital history as from what you said until the OW came along he did not complain about this. This is so similar to my story in the beginning.

Also keep in mind that OW is telling him you are controlling. Trust me she is feeding him such lies about what a bad wife you are, how you are too controlling, etc., and if he is a "follower" type of a guy he believes every word she says. My H's OW thinks I am evil, refers to me as the "C***, constantly bashes me bc we had a cleaning lady every 2 weeks (so I am lazy), told my H I was a gold digger bc he made more money than me, told him I was stealing from him etc etc and he believes every word she says. But at this point I do not think you should argue against what he or OW says about you (at least not to your H), bc I think it will only drive him further away or he will think you are being "controlling".

So expose this affair to your family and the workplace. I exposed bc I never wanted their co workers talking about me and feeling bad for me bc I had no idea what was going on. So instead I was real quiet and then blew it up. While exposure is not about revenge, I would be lying to say that I did not get some fleeting satisfaction that my H and OW were scrambling at work worried about their jobs and reputations bc their boss was furious. 

So start the 180 bc if you start the 180 you will seem even less controlling and it will help you start to heal. 

Good luck - this is an uphill battle you may not win. But if you lose your H to this POS OW then you really have not lost much. But watch how happy he will be when he loses big financially if you D, if you really want to bother him tell him in a calm way -you hope she is worth half of what you both have plus alimony and child support.


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## so_conflicted

UPDATE:
So when H got home, he was in a great mood. I told him we had to talk. He was happy to do so, which is unusual he's never been a big talker. I first asked how the talk went with OW telling her that he admitted to me and about being strictly friends (he had said that the affair was completely over but occasionally she would say something flirty) and he wanted her to be clear that they were going to behave like they do with all other colleagues. He said that she felt terrible and kept apologizing saying "I hope she doesn't think I caused this" He seemed very proud of himself for doing this and happy that we were going to move forward to work on our M.
Then I told him that I need him to have NC with the OW and a letter stating so. He was quiet and shocked and said "I don't see how that's even possible unless I quit my job" I told him that I agreed and that was the advice I've been given that either he or the OW needs to transfer or quit. He was speechless and said I don't know what to do. He has been with his company for 13 years and has excellent benefits and 5 weeks vacation every year. He said he really doesn't want to switch jobs, so I told him to ask her to leave. 
I also told him what many of you have said that makes a lot of sense. He thinks no one at the office knows or suspects what they've been up to. I told him that there is no way that people haven't noticed they way the looked at each other, the times they walk off to the vending machine alone, etc. He thought for a second and said "I guess you're probably right, they might have suspected something back in Feb when PA was happening, but I ended all of that, on my own." I think it was an eye opener to him that people know and I mentioned that everyone is most likely watching their every move to try to confirm their suspicions. I know he doesn't like gossip especially negative gossip about him. 
He said he would write the letter, asked how it worked and I explained it to him. He is going to write it tonight, and I will proof read and send it. He wanted to know what to do if she won't leave the dept or company entirely because he said he really doesn't want to quit. SIDE NOTE: our younger daughter has a medical condition that require a VERY expensive medication that is nearly $3,000/month but with his current insurance we pay only under $100/month. Most insurance companies do not have this amazing coverage, which is completely valid and honest reason for him to stay with his current employer.
He promises and swears that it's OVER and has been since February and that they have been able to maintain a friendship and nothing more but that he would do the NC letter to end even that part of it. He asked that if she wouldn't leave the company if NC would be enough. 
I want to trust him so badly and as stupid as I probably seem, I do believe him and feel like he is genuine about being done with her and their past has passed. He didn't protest at all about the NC only about the job change on his part. I told him to embarrass her by telling her that he has realized that everyone in the office knows or suspects and maybe that will motivate her to leave.
Am I stupid to try to make this work with just the NC in place if neither of them leave the job? H is pretty set on him not leaving and I don't know what she'll do with the request for her to leave.
H also said that he is scared to turn his world upside down (new job) because he might do all that it things still not work between us. And he'll be miserable at the new job AND D. When we discussed team events like go-karting and baseball games he said he could skip all those (which is was so impressed with because those are his favorite things about the company and always have been) but then I realized that if he misses out on all the things he enjoys because of her or my demands he will be resentful because he has only started doing those things in the last couple years because of my jealously and hatefulness in the past when he would come home. 
I want him to do those things because they are group events (not just him and OW) and I have proof of that but I if she doesn't leave can they both be part of the same team and have NC? He said that he will completely avoid her and always been on the other side of the group all day everyday. The hiccup of course is if she stays there will be a few circumstances where they genuinely need to talk about something that is purely business. He asked "What do I do then?" I told him he has to do his job and he would have to talk to her. I just want her to leave!
Sorry for the long ramble. Thanks for reading and thank you for all the advice. H agreeing to NC and the letter has made me feel better but I really want her to quit the job so that contact never has to occur at all even out of necessity.
Help!


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## highwood

I just do not see how it can work with the both of them still seeing each other all the time...

I am curious have you confronted her...because honestly I would be chomping at the bit to do that if I was you? For her to act all innocent and I am not trying to be a home wrecker..I don't buy it.


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## so_conflicted

No, I have not confronted her in any way. We have never had any contact at all. H asked if the NC letter was to come from me or him and didn't seem to really care if it was to be from me so I don't think he would mind that much if I did make contact. I did make it clear that the NC letter is to come from him.
She seems to be thoroughly convinced that he was on the brink of leaving the M and that she was just there for him, not that she was in any way the cause.
I am concerned too that if she won't leave the job that they can never truly end things that it will either be an EA or revert back to a full blown PA. H swears that he they have been nothing more than friends since he chose to end it on his own in February and that that is working without either one of them wanting more. He said to prove he wants to make M work he will do NC even though he says that it's already to the point where she is just like every other person in the office.
He is (or always has been) someone who hates lying and gets so stressed out by trying to keep up with even the tiniest lie (like calling in sick to spend a day together etc.). That actually was only of my clues that something was off once I found the texts. He hadn't been sleeping at all, he would toss and turn all night and we even went to a dr appt together to try to get his some help sleeping. He said it was on his mind all day everyday and he was always so stressed and uptight knowing that he was keeping this from me. He said he never wanted me to find out because things had started going so well between us but he couldn't take the guilt, stress and lying anymore. 
I am going to see what happens with the NC letter and see if she chooses to leave the job. If not, I don't know what I'll do


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## badmemory

so_conflicted said:


> I think even more than the NC that will be the thing he scoffs at and ultimately ends the M. I honestly think he wants his freedom more than he wants me/our marriage (he has said he still wants to very involved with our girls and plans to still drive them to school daily etc.) I think if I make it easy for him to make M work he'll give it a go, if I make it hard he's out. He's just had enough of the control and this OW gives him a quick way out with her offer of a place to stay and favors on top of that.


conflicted,

You have to get beyond the affair first, before you can start working on the marriage. You can't do both at the same time. That's just the way it is and he'll have to accept it if he wants to save this.

You can consider telling him that you take responsibility for your part of the marital problems, but not his affair. That you will commit to improving your issues and working with him to make a better marriage. But you can't do that until he ends contact permanently and then demonstrates that he is remorseful about what he has done. And part of that remorse is accepting that there are always consequences for cheating.

If he balks about the exposure, tell him that you won't apologize for trying to save you marriage.

Hope things went OK last night. Give us an update when you can.


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## so_conflicted

badmemory,

I thought about exposure and mentioned it to him and he was shocked and said "ho will that help? you don't even like me to talk to people about how much money I make but I should tell them I had an affair?" I told him that keep it from happening again because all eyes are on them. Then I sort of went into the 'they actually already know or suspect anyway' so they are already watching you. He seemed to doubt that at first until I gave examples and then started to agree that they probably did suspect something back in February. His realization that they already know, is that enough of an exposure to kill anything that might be left? I get the feeling it might be for her, she seems very concerned about what others think about her.


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## alte Dame

She can't act innocent. This wasn't an EA that can be spun to be 'just friends.' They had sex multiple times.

OK, OP, I think you made great progress and your H sounds very much like he wants to work with you. Do the NC letter and then ask him to do some research with you on how to proceed with his job. Tell him that every situation is different and you should be informed and smart about what you do next. Tell him to calm down about his job, that you two will come to a solution together & then get to work reading together. We all understand completely how difficult these challenges are when an A happens, so it can take a bit of time to figure out what to do. 

I suggest two books to start, that you read together, digest and discuss:

1. 'Not Just Friends' by Shirley Glass - this is about EA's but will have a lot of good information for you about workplace A's.

2. 'His Needs/Her Needs' by W. Harley, Jr. - This is a great book to read together to affair-proof a marriage.

Take it one step at a time. The OW is a very young homewrecker, so have confidence that she's not a long-term prospect, but together with your H has already done a lot of damage and can do more. You don't know what they are saying to one another when they are alone, so stay as pragmatic as you can.


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## mg2977

I agree with LanieB, it is really strange that he is so readily willing to do the NC letter and that fact that he admitted people probably know. I also do not believe that an A is ever over if the two people work together. I have seen it happen only once and that was when the OW moved on to a different target, it does not happen bc a WH ends the affair himself. 

I know you want to believe him but be careful. Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear from him ever! 

Its almost like he is agreeing with you, just so you do not expose or blow up his fantasy land anymore. I still think you should expose this or if you do not want to rock the boat right now, you could send his NC letter, sit back and watch what happens and then at the first sign that something is off then you expose. 

You need to make this as uncomfortable as possible for them, fvck up their fantasy world. I know you do not want a D and I do not believe you should threaten this, but I think you need to be prepared to file for D if he is still in the A. Also if you file for D and name her or subpoena her, I think she will head for the hills bc she is 23 and most 23 year old girls would be scared off by this. 

Also I would not contact her. Not worth your time, energy or dignity. OW is beneath you do not engage her! She will either patronize you or berate you and your self esteem does not need this. Nothing good will come from it. 

Do you know anyone at his office that may tell you if something suspicious is going on? 

As far as about you talking with him about exposure, stop. No more talk about this with him bc it gives him and OW time to craft a story to depict you as the crazy, jealous W. So back off talking about exposure, in fact you may want to tell him you are so embarrassed you would never expose or something so he believes you will not expose. The whole point of expose is not revenge but you cannot tell him you are doing it, you just do it. Also the more private a person your H is the better exposure may work bc he will not want his reputation tarnished. My H was very private and he was furious bc everyone thought he was the "golden boy" with the perfect wife and life". 

I still would implement the 180 despite his promises to do NC etc. Read the books people recommended.

I hope your H is being truthful and this A is over, but you need to be prepared with a plan just in case. It is so overwhelming, so please take care of yourself right now.


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## badmemory

so_conflicted said:


> No, I have not confronted her in any way. We have never had any contact at all. H asked if the NC letter was to come from me or him and didn't seem to really care if it was to be from me so I don't think he would mind that much if I did make contact. I did make it clear that the NC letter is to come from him.
> She seems to be thoroughly convinced that he was on the brink of leaving the M and that she was just there for him, not that she was in any way the cause.
> I am concerned too that if she won't leave the job that they can never truly end things that it will either be an EA or revert back to a full blown PA. H swears that he they have been nothing more than friends since he chose to end it on his own in February and that that is working without either one of them wanting more. He said to prove he wants to make M work he will do NC even though he says that it's already to the point where she is just like every other person in the office.
> He is (or always has been) someone who hates lying and gets so stressed out by trying to keep up with even the tiniest lie (like calling in sick to spend a day together etc.). That actually was only of my clues that something was off once I found the texts. He hadn't been sleeping at all, he would toss and turn all night and we even went to a dr appt together to try to get his some help sleeping. He said it was on his mind all day everyday and he was always so stressed and uptight knowing that he was keeping this from me. He said he never wanted me to find out because things had started going so well between us but he couldn't take the guilt, stress and lying anymore.
> I am going to see what happens with the NC letter and see if she chooses to leave the job. If not, I don't know what I'll do


Well, right now you are at a crossroads. You've read all the advice about the necessity of ending contact. You know that can't happen if they work together, no matter what he tells you. Remember his actions, not words, are what you should rely on.

I would put this on his back. He created this mess and it's his job to figure out how to work out the job situation. You could consider giving him a short period of time to work it out, with a deadline; and that he tell you what his plan is to minimize that contact in the interim. But even that is very risky.

If you haven't exposed yet, you need to do it ASAP. That will make it more difficult for the A to continue, but only that.

I'm sorry. I know how difficult this decision is. But ultimately, if you accept them continuing to work together, I and many others will tell you that this is a decision that one day soon, you may regret tremendously.


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## so_conflicted

He said that during the talk he told her to stop apologizing and that she didn't do anything and I said "she had sex with a married man!" he said "I know but I'M the married one" 

he takes responsibility for what he's done as far as the affair but is convinced that it's over and they can work together without contact and nothing will ever happen again. He seems so honest and said he will tell me anytime they HAVE to talk about a work issue and will tell me if she ever tries to talk to him that is not work related. He said he will tell me everything when it comes to her. 
I told him the #1 main goal is for there to NC in any way ever again. That once that happens we can start rebuilding. He said that he accepts that and the letter will let her know how he's feeling. 
I do worry that even if the letter is sent that he could continue a friendship with her and just tell her that I asked him to send it..... 
I don't think he would do that, but then again, I never thought he would cheat.


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## highwood

Yes, they can seem so honest and truthful can't they. I bought that as well...H would look at me right in the eyes and say nothing is going on, I am done with that crap, etc. etc. and I bought it, he sounded so sincere. ONly to discover months later the he was still in contact with her. 

I feel sad for you because I know you are desperate to save your marriage...I get that! It is a scary and uncertain time..but also understand that one day the fear and desperation will turn to anger and resentment and you will think why the **** did I take the blame for what he did and why did I put up with it?

I suspect that you have not disclosed this to any of your family or his family as well.


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## so_conflicted

Maybe his NC letter should state that if she doesn't leave that I will expose. I would think that would scare her off pretty quickly. She's young and has virtually no time invested in this job but still appears to care about what people think of her quite a bit. I can't imagine she'd want to stay with everyone knowing what she did with a married man....not to mention that all of these people I would expose to, know me making the situation even uglier


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## so_conflicted

Highwood, 
you are correct I have not told anyone but the people on this board. I am too ashamed and humiliated. Also, I fear that if I tell family or friends, they will never forgive him and get past this even if we do.


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## badmemory

so_conflicted said:


> badmemory,
> 
> I thought about exposure and mentioned it to him and he was shocked and said "ho will that help? you don't even like me to talk to people about how much money I make but I should tell them I had an affair?" I told him that keep it from happening again because all eyes are on them. Then I sort of went into the 'they actually already know or suspect anyway' so they are already watching you. He seemed to doubt that at first until I gave examples and then started to agree that they probably did suspect something back in February. His realization that they already know, is that enough of an exposure to kill anything that might be left? I get the feeling it might be for her, she seems very concerned about what others think about her.


I agree with the other poster who said that exposure is something you just do - without telling the CS. You don't discuss it or threaten it. If we neglected to mention that to you before, we should have.

You don't have to expose them at work; yet. That can remain in your prospective arsenal. But his family and your family should know about it.


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## highwood

The best thing I did was expose H's EA to our adult son...I honestly think that was the catalyst that got him out of the fog and made him realize what an idiot he was being just to boost his ego. The embarrasment and shame he felt was a good thing for him to experience.

As well all of his siblings..his brother and sisters knew as well..he was so embarrassed that it took him months and months to face them. OBviously if any cheater had their way nobody would know what they did...of course but sorry in my case it was fool me once shame on me fool me twice shame on you.


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## badmemory

so_conflicted said:


> Highwood,
> you are correct I have not told anyone but the people on this board. I am too ashamed and humiliated. Also, I fear that if I tell family or friends, they will never forgive him and get past this even if we do.


conflicted,

Be careful. You are on the verge of rug sweeping this affair. Don't be afraid to expose him.


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## so_conflicted

I am more comfortable with exposing to family that at his workplace because I will get support and won't come across as the bitter spouse who is just telling to get revenge. 
Should we tell our daughters? They are 11 and 14. Their Daddy is their hero and this information would change their opinion of him forever. He might try to explain his actions as being unhappy and thinking we were destined for D and that's why it happened. The older one would at least get that no matter how unhappy you don't cheat. The younger one might accept the excuse. Are they too young? 
Do I tell his/my family or should I have him do it with me present? I feel like he should have to admit it, not me be the tattle tale telling everyone what he's done to me.


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## mg2977

Fear is your worst enemy in this situation. Remember that do not be afraid to lose anything including your M. 

All this advise is easier said than done but it really is your only hope.

Do not tell him any ideas or plans you get from TAM (do not even tell him about TAM) or from anyone. Sorry to say but you never reveal your battle plan to the enemy and if your H is in an A, he is not your ally. So never reveal your plan or your sources of information.

Expose to his family not as revenge but as "H is having an A and I really would like your support to help my M". If he will admit the A to your families that would be good, but be prepared for him to refuse. If he does refuse, you still expose to them. The purpose also of exposure is to prevent your H from telling lies about how your control issues ruined the marriage, he will still tell these lies but at least now people know he is a cheater. Do you have any mutual "friends of the marriage" that may help you? You need support from friends and family right now. 

I still say expose at work if it becomes necessary. Who cares if people think you are bitter - you are not bitter and you are not looking to make friends here. 

Oh and if you do expose be prepared for him to deny, deny. My STBEXH did this and even now when I see someone and confirm the rumor they are shocked, but now think even worse of my STBEXH bc they are aware not only of the A but also all his lies. 

Be careful with what you believe, if anything that he tells you. He is thinking only of himself and OW, not you.


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## highwood

so_conflicted said:


> Highwood,
> you are correct I have not told anyone but the people on this board. I am too ashamed and humiliated. Also, I fear that if I tell family or friends, they will never forgive him and get past this even if we do.


That makes me sad...you should not feel ashamed or humiliated that is for your H to live with those feelings. I would implement the 180 and stay strong.


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## badmemory

so_conflicted said:


> I am more comfortable with exposing to family that at his workplace because I will get support and won't come across as the bitter spouse who is just telling to get revenge.
> Should we tell our daughters? They are 11 and 14. Their Daddy is their hero and this information would change their opinion of him forever. He might try to explain his actions as being unhappy and thinking we were destined for D and that's why it happened. The older one would at least get that no matter how unhappy you don't cheat. The younger one might accept the excuse. Are they too young?
> Do I tell his/my family or should I have him do it with me present? I feel like he should have to admit it, not me be the tattle tale telling everyone what he's done to me.


You'll get a varying range of opinions on this board about about exposing to younger children. My opinion is that they should be told only if you wind up divorcing. And then, only in an age appropriate way - leaving out the unnecessary details.

For grown or almost grown children, I think yes - in any circumstance.


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## highwood

Affairs that consist of both physical and emotional components are truly the most difficult to "get over". I still think sadly the OP is in for a long hard emotional road ahead of her.


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## highwood

badmemory said:


> You'll get a varying range of opinions on this board about about exposing to younger children. My opinion is that they should be told only if you wind up divorcing. And then, only in an age appropriate way - leaving out the unnecessary details.
> 
> For grown or almost grown children, I think yes - in any circumstance.


:iagree:


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## badmemory

In regards to telling his family or yours; It would be preferable for him to volunteer to do it, but you need to be there to make sure the truth is not slanted.


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## alte Dame

He had a PA. Expose to his family and your family. It's important to bring it out into the light. Hold on exposing at work - keep this for yourself for later. Hold on saying anything to your children. They are not extremely young, but they are not yet grown.

Your H was convinced that you would leave him if you knew he had sex with another woman. You say he was surprised that you would consider working it out. Once you told him that, he seems to have been relieved and started to commit. Now, you have to take all this with a huge grain of salt. He has been lying to you and continues to do so. I repeat - you don't know the details and extent of their sex and you don't know what they say to one another and you don't really know whether it is over.

That all being said - I would proceed with the family exposure and then I would tell him you want to work with him as a united front to repair your marriage. Read the two books I mentioned above, in the order I mentioned & do it together. This will impress upon him the need for NC - it will come from experts and you won't have to be the one to 'nag' about it.

- 'Not Just Friends' by Glass
- 'His Needs/Her Needs' by Harley

So - expose to adult family members and close friends & get to work actively discussing how you proceed post affair with NC, etc. Read the books - together. Schedule time to do it. Tell him you are researching this and are trying to be pro-active and constructive. Keep your eyes wide open. Remember that they lie.

Have hope, be realistic, move forward with the knowledge that you want your marriage but you will survive if he remains unfaithful and you have to split up.


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## so_conflicted

I am going to see if he will expose to family, we do a lot together and there are plenty of opportunities for this to happen, but I would like for him to be the one to do it (with me present, of course)
I know he will ask me what the point of exposing to family is. I know he wants to just move forward and put the past behind us and focus on fixing not dredging up what he did. Honestly I don't know if the family knowing will have any affect on whether or not it could happen again. He may see it as a situation where he thinks "they already think I'm a jerk so if it happens again oh well, they already hate me" I just don't see it as a deterrent. I know his mother, a devout Catholic will be devastated, but once that damage is done he may not worry about what she would think if he were to start it up again. She can be very pushy with him and may just push him away from the M by giving him even more demands than I am. He gets very annoyed when she won't drop a subject and I can see her hanging on tho this one forever until he just tunes her out and her opinion of him doesn't matter.
I think he will feel shame and embarrassment but I don't think it will have any bearing on things if he were to consider doing it again.


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## alte Dame

It is normal to argue against the tools that you need to use to deal with this. It can seem counterintuitive & not relevant to your specific, 'very special' circumstances.

These tools work, however. Keeping this just between you is impossible. After all, the OW actually knows more than you know, so it's not just between the two of you.

Exposure brings it out into the light and helps tremendously to break the affair fog for the cheating spouse. You need to break this fog. Exposure also puts other eyes on the WS.

Tell him that you should follow the recommended therapy for dealing with his A. Exposure is critical. Please download Shirley Glass's book and begin to read. Flying by the seat of your pants will steer you in the wrong direction. Mark my words that you will regret rugsweeping. You will regret that in very short order.


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## highwood

so_conflicted said:


> I am going to see if he will expose to family, we do a lot together and there are plenty of opportunities for this to happen, but I would like for him to be the one to do it (with me present, of course)
> I know he will ask me what the point of exposing to family is. I know he wants to just move forward and put the past behind us and focus on fixing not dredging up what he did. Honestly I don't know if the family knowing will have any affect on whether or not it could happen again. He may see it as a situation where he thinks "they already think I'm a jerk so if it happens again oh well, they already hate me" I just don't see it as a deterrent. I know his mother, a devout Catholic will be devastated, but once that damage is done he may not worry about what she would think if he were to start it up again. She can be very pushy with him and may just push him away from the M by giving him even more demands than I am. He gets very annoyed when she won't drop a subject and I can see her hanging on tho this one forever until he just tunes her out and her opinion of him doesn't matter.
> I think he will feel shame and embarrassment but I don't think it will have any bearing on things if he were to consider doing it again.


One day OP you will realize that all this rug sweeping and saving the marriage at the expense of your dignity will come and bite you in the ass. It always does. 

I think you are taking on alot of the blame yourself that is why you are okay with not exposing. You are fearful of a life with out him...I think you mentioned finances so you are staying because you might have to get a job, or if you already have one, work two jobs, etc. etc. Right now you are staying and letting him deal the cards out of fear. I think this is why they say that alot of women will tend to put up with cheating more so than men will because women do stay because of finances or they think I am turning 40 or 50 or 60 and no one else will want me. Very sad...


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## badmemory

It's fairly common thinking here that without significant negative consequences, a CS is much more likely to repeat their behavior. In theory, it should make them think twice, if they can expect to receive them again - if there is a next time.

Nor, once you are out of the BS fog, do you want to look back and have regrets for not doing everything possible to judge how remorseful he is. Accepting exposure is one more way for him to "demonstrate" that remorse.


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## mg2977

Ok, the other posters are so right, the advice seems counter intuitive but it is your only chance. So expose, expose, expose!

Exposing to his family may not have any effect on him, but if you do not do it, how will you ever know? Do not think of or even worry about the excuses he will give you against exposing, he does not get to make the rules bc he is the cheater. 

Also by exposing the A, you will gain people to aid in the emotional support you will need b/c you have not even started to process the wide range of emotions you will experience. 

I also felt like exposure empowered me bc my H's A and his OW were his "dirty little secret" he wanted no one to know about, so by exposing and gaining people's support I felt better. And I was no longer going to enable a cheater's lies.


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## highwood

mg2977 said:


> Ok, the other posters are so right, the advice seems counter intuitive but it is your only chance. So expose, expose, expose!
> 
> Exposing to his family may not have any effect on him, but if you do not do it, how will you ever know? Do not think of or even worry about the excuses he will give you against exposing, he does not get to make the rules bc he is the cheater.
> 
> Also by exposing the A, you will gain people to aid in the emotional support you will need b/c you have not even started to process the wide range of emotions you will experience.
> 
> I also felt like exposure empowered me bc my H's A and his OW were his "dirty little secret" he wanted no one to know about, so by exposing and gaining people's support I felt better. And I was no longer going to enable a cheater's lies.


I agree...that is one thing I found that I had alot of support and it makes you feel good. 

Of course the WS wants no one to know...I doubt there are many WS's who want everyone to know what they have been up to. If my H had his way only he and I would have ever known what he was up to. I remember him saying well this is no one elses business it is between you and I ...yeah right!

Sorry but my attitude is you make a fool out of me again behind my back by cheating..you will pay big time. I still have emails/access to the websites of the dating sites he signed up for, etc. etc. and I will not hesitate to show any one including his family. ( I am sure his elderly mother will like the profile he set up on one site in which he is looking for no strings attached sex...the one site called **** buddies).


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## mg2977

Totally agree with everything highwood said. Your H wants no one to know about his "dirty little secret" and if you do not expose you are therefore enabling his A. Do not enable the A.

Oh and my STBEXH still refuses to admit he is having an A to his parents, even though they totally believe and support me 100%. He tried to lie to them after I exposed but the truth kept coming out and now that he admitted the A to me, his family continues to support me. Now he just refuses to speak with them and has cut off anyone that refuses to believe his lies or will not put up with his lies. 

But there was no way I was keeping his secret for him. The WS does you know favors by having the A, so in my opinion you owe them no favors in keeping their secrets.


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## happyman64

So Conflicted

I think you are doing well. And asking for your families help (yours and his) to assist as you and your H work to reconcile is ok.

You do not want them to beat him up but encourage him to work on the issues like an adult would do.

I do think it is positive that your H felt he could come to you and tell you about the Affair. That means he still wants you and the marriage in my mind.

I agree with Alte Dame. Do not expose at work yet. I would not jeapoardize his job or your families medical benefits.

Your 1st steps have been very good.

Take it one day at a time and stay positive.

Keep encouraging your H to do the right thing.

HM64


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## highwood

I agree leave the work thing alone but I would expose it to his family and your family and honestly if it was me, I would let his OW know what I think of her..but that's just me.

Always remember preserve your dignity and self respect as no marriage is worth having none of those things.


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## LongWalk

so_conflicted said:


> I am going to see if he will expose to family, we do a lot together and there are plenty of opportunities for this to happen, but I would like for him to be the one to do it (with me present, of course)
> I know he will ask me what the point of exposing to family is. I know he wants to just move forward and put the past behind us and focus on fixing not dredging up what he did. Honestly I don't know if the family knowing will have any affect on whether or not it could happen again. He may see it as a situation where he thinks "they already think I'm a jerk so if it happens again oh well, they already hate me" I just don't see it as a deterrent. I know his mother, a devout Catholic will be devastated, but once that damage is done he may not worry about what she would think if he were to start it up again. She can be very pushy with him and may just push him away from the M by giving him even more demands than I am. He gets very annoyed when she won't drop a subject and I can see her hanging on tho this one forever until he just tunes her out and her opinion of him doesn't matter.
> I think he will feel shame and embarrassment but I don't think it will have any bearing on things if he were to consider doing it again.


Family can have a very strong reaction to cheating. My uncle, professor and department chair, went abroad on sabbatical and hooked up with some woman researcher. My aunt, also a professor, divorced him. He married the lover. The children all grown by that time never accepted that woman, who continuously bombarded extended family with emails and letters to try and get accepted into the gang (hardly worth it, haha).

He died a few years ago but I still get crap from her even today from time to time. I only met her once or twice. He even left her pretty much everything in his will, which was written on the back of paper napkin.

"He was probably sex drunk at the time," my cousin said.

Family may be unforgiving. I guess you need to know them to guess how they will react.

The idea that he will have to face your daughters about this someday is probably causing the lower section of his bowel to clench up.

There is nothing to stop you from requesting a letter from your husband, admitting everything (and you can preface the letter before he writes it), to say that if he cheats again you will have the option of turning the letter over to whomever you see fit.

At this point you cannot even promise not to D, and he seems to understand that.

As far as your marital issues go, you can certainly agree to work on them, with the understanding that those problems did not justify his affair.

I don't know how many other TAM threads you have read, but it is interesting that quite a large percentage of men have trouble with mind movies and doubts about their sexual adequacy. It seems that women don't dwell on this as much.


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## so_conflicted

I will try to get him to expose to family but I'm just not convinced that someone like him who hates confrontation wouldn't feel I was doing it just to make him jump through hoops to torture him with no real gain for doing so, other than appeasing me. I think he will see it as me making him "pay for" what he did by humiliating himself to our family.


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## confused4322

I am new to this forum and yours was the first post I read. It is really ironic how similar your story sounds like mine. It would almost read the exact same. I am so sorry that you are having to go through this. I am about 4 months from D-day and I can tell you this it wasn't easy getting to the final d-day. My spouse also worked with her and told me the exact same thing your husband tells you. He kept telling me that I would never get past it and they can just be friends. I think he convinced himself that this was true and it gave him a reason to continue the affair because he thought his marriage was over anyways (actually this is what he told me after the affair finally ended). I didn't realize at the time that as long as he worked with her it would never end, but I guess part of me wanted to believe him. I wish now that I would have kicked him out and he could have opened up his eyes sooner. Only after I eventually gave him a choice his family or her did he quit his job and have no further contact with her. I guess my advice is that you need to realize sooner that as long as he has contact with her it is never going to stop. I also know the feeling of not wanting to help push him away because you want to keep your family and life together so badly. However, looking back now I only wish I would have been stronger and not let him continue his affair while still keeping his family.


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## so_conflicted

confused4322,
I appreciate you sharing your story. Sounds very similar, so did your H choose the family or her? My H was up most of the night saying he didn't know what to do. He finally said that he would write the letter start the NC but he was not willing to switch jobs. He hoped that she would but if she didn't then he would just leave because he wasn't going to go to a job where he was unhappy and potentially have us not work out and then be unhappy in that area of his life too. Basically making the job switch for nothing because our M failed anyway. 
At this point I am just waiting to see his NC letter and see if they both will stick to it. I hope she will leave the job, but who knows. I am willing to give it a little time, but everyone here keeps telling me to act swiftly. I just don't want to go to the extreme if something more mild will work.
I know he's proven to be a liar with this A but I feel like it really is over and that being with her now is more trouble than it's worth now that I know and am making demands and "on his tail" verifying everything he says.


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## sandc

I may be way off-base here but have you considered talking to the OW? You have his side of the story. She has his side of the story. Maybe a conversation with her would be an eye-opener for her. Just don't be too angry with her until you know what he's told her. Besides, she didn't exchange vows with you, HE did. YOU telling her to please stay away from your husband may have far more effect than him saying. You can always hint that you will expose to HR if she can't stay away from him. I know you said the company is tolerant of affairs (I'm still not sure I believe that) but she may not be aware of the company's tolerance and therefore worry about her job.


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## so_conflicted

I keep going back and forth about talking to OW. Realistically, she doesn't owe me anything...explanation, promise to stay away or otherwise. I definitely think I could scare her into NC at least temporarily, if she wasn't respecting H letter or if they were continuing contact behind my back. I just don't know how H would respond to that. Would it make me look like the psycho wife making threats to expose the OW?


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## sandc

Well, I don't think it would be psycho to just have a conversation with her. WHEN you're ready. For all you know, he was pursuing her. Point is, both of you only have his word for what was said. Don't do it if you feel it will turn you psycho. Your mental well-being is more important at this point.


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## so_conflicted

So I feel like I've made a couple big initial steps and kind of getting varying advice as to where to go from here. I am definitely going to do a 180 no matter what. That had very positive results, so for now....
Do I:
Wait and see if NC/letter are enough?
Expose to family?
Expose to work?
Contact OW?


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## badmemory

so_conflicted said:


> confused4322,
> I appreciate you sharing your story. Sounds very similar, so did your H choose the family or her? My H was up most of the night saying he didn't know what to do. *He finally said that he would write the letter start the NC but he was not willing to switch jobs.* He hoped that she would but if she didn't then he would just leave because he wasn't going to go to a job where he was unhappy and potentially have us not work out and then be unhappy in that area of his life too. Basically making the job switch for nothing because our M failed anyway.
> At this point I am just waiting to see his NC letter and see if they both will stick to it. I hope she will leave the job, but who knows. I am willing to give it a little time, but everyone here keeps telling me to act swiftly. I just don't want to go to the extreme if something more mild will work.
> I know he's proven to be a liar with this A but I feel like it really is over and that being with her now is more trouble than it's worth now that I know and am making demands and "on his tail" verifying everything he says.


He's simply telling you that his job is more important to him than your marriage. 

He didn't even say he would "try" to find another job; didn't say he would try to arrange a transfer; didn't say I'll find a way to get her to leave; didn't offer up that he'll find "some" way to end contact. Honest to a fault? Maybe. Or maybe he's just not very smart in hiding his lack of remorse. 

Bottom line - whether she leaves or not, he's already admitted it.


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## badmemory

so_conflicted said:


> So I feel like I've made a couple big initial steps and kind of getting varying advice as to where to go from here. I am definitely going to do a 180 no matter what. That had very positive results, so for now....
> Do I:
> Wait and see if NC/letter are enough?
> Expose to family?
> Expose to work?
> Contact OW?


You remember that "expose at work" trump card I suggested you keep in your back pocket?

If he doesn't end the contact at work, that's when I would play it - without telling him. Whether you stay with him or not.


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## LongWalk

Have you ever met her before? Seen pictures of her on FB?


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## so_conflicted

I think he's clinging to the job because it's the only guaranteed source of happiness for him. He has always loved working there since he started 13 years ago. We need the medical benefits the company offers. 
He did consider switching to another team/building etc. all night last night but he finally decided, what's the point of doing that if it just makes him unhappy in that area of his life or if our M fails and then he's unhappy with everything in his life. The enjoyment he gets from his job is a sure thing and everything else is not. He's afraid to give up the only thing he knows is working right now, which sucks but I actually understand where he's coming from. He said he is going to encourage her to leave in the letter (we'll see tonight after he writes it) but said "I can't make her quit. What if she doesn't, then what?"


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## highwood

I am curious how will you know that they are not continuing on..you do not work in the same place so how will you know for sure that their interactions are completely business related?


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## highwood

As well do not give the OW any credit for feeling terrible about being a homewrecker....one thing about the OW is that they think that they are all that because wow I am stealing another woman's man, I must be all that..when in reality it is so not true. They are nothing but second best and somebody else's trash that they did not want.

I can't think of anybody that has lower self worth/respect/esteem than somebody who chooses to be an OW/OM.


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## so_conflicted

highwood,
You have an excellent point. I have no way of knowing at all. It is simply his word, which he has proven can mean nothing.
All I can do is go with my intuition and try to trust with eyes wide open, but I have no way of knowing anything at all. I should bring this up to H.
The only thing I could do is try to contact one of his female colleagues that has been at the company forever and has close contact to H and tell her the whole story and ask her to keep an eye on him. She's been through D 2 or 3 times, she might actually help me, but honestly I don't know her all that well.
I definitely am willing to use the expose at work card if I ever find out that it's still going on and then we are over, no matter what because I will know that he can't and won't ever change. 
I stupidly feel like everyone screws up (some much worse than others) and that everyone deserves a second chance to prove then can be a better person.
I have never seen/met her. I looked for a facebook profile and couldn't find one. The only thing I found was a linked in profile without a pic. Long ago H mentioned her when she was first hired (because there aren't a lot of women at his company) and I asked if she was pretty and he said "no not really she's an engineer so I guess she's kind of a nerdy cute?" 
I keep saying this and I'm sure all of you are rolling your eyes at how wet behind the ears I am but I really do believe it's over and H won't go back to the affair mainly because of the drama it will cause everyone and he absolutely hates drama. With a passion.
Maybe soon my own fog will lift, but I can't shake the feeling that this is a done deal and he is being honest about things. So sorry to disappoint. I hope I don't live to regret this trust I'm giving him, but I think that if I gave up after the first (albeit HUGE) mistake that I would always regret that I didn't give my M a fighting chance.


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## badmemory

so_conflicted said:


> I think he's clinging to the job because it's the only guaranteed source of happiness for him. He has always loved working there since he started 13 years ago. We need the medical benefits the company offers.
> He did consider switching to another team/building etc. all night last night but he finally decided, what's the point of doing that if it just makes him unhappy in that area of his life or if our M fails and then he's unhappy with everything in his life. The enjoyment he gets from his job is a sure thing and everything else is not. He's afraid to give up the only thing he knows is working right now, which sucks but I actually understand where he's coming from. He said he is going to encourage her to leave in the letter (we'll see tonight after he writes it) but said "I can't make her quit. What if she doesn't, then what?"


conflicted,

I won't beat this dead horse any more, I promise. But you're rationalizing. Of course jobs are important. But in the grand scheme of things they shouldn't be as important as breaking up his marriage and family, potentially losing custody of his two children, and all the financial/emotional repercussions that follow.

He should at the very least, come up with a plan to affect this no contact; rather than throw his hands up in the air and say "what can I do?".


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## Busy Accountant

I'm sorry you are here conflicted. 

Your name says it all. You have a lot going on in your mind right now. The folks on here know what they are talking about. I did not have the benefits of TAM when I was going through my situation, but I basically did the right thing. Point is, if anything is going to work, the 180 is going to do it. I'm going to suggest something that is even more difficult than all the advice so far....and that is...take a zen moment and settle your mind! I am sensing that you feel some urgency to act and to get it perfectly right. Many of the issues that you site here are not immediate. Also, you don't have all the information you need to make informed decisions. For example, your finances, your (daughter's I think) medical needs, etc belong on a separate list than your issues around your controlling personality or your H's needs to be himself. When I found out about my H's 3 EA's I sorted out my emotional issues from my fears around finances. I had decided to see a therapist to sort out my feelings and how my actions would affect my kids, one specifically about to graduate from high school and go away to college. Then I was going to see an attorney about the financial piece, college costs, healthcare for the kids and me. I had already called the attorney and was setting cash aside for the consultation fee. What happened afterward is not relevant here, but H and I are 15 months in R and doing quite well. What resources do you have to help you sort out some of these issues? The controlling personality and your H's need to feel more free are for long-term marital counseling. I see 2 real immediate issues right now; are you willing to remain in a marriage with the doubts and stresses around OW? Yes or No. If you stay in the marriage as it is right now, that "everything is fine on the outside" life is going to erode quickly. So the second issue is whether you want to model this kind of relationship as healthy for your children. Yes or NO. Once you answer those two issues, the rest is how to...and that is what these great people here can help you with. They can also help with the emotional roller coaster ride that you are on. I know, you didn't buy the ticket, but you are locked in now. 

Now, my next topic is for down the road...you'll know if and when the time is right.....

My daughter is 23 and a recent college graduate. She is at an interview for her first "real" job as I type. She is bright, beautiful, great personality and she has NO BUSINESS "being there" for a 39 year old man with two kids (one with a serious medical condition), a wife and a mortgage!!!! My daughter would have NOTHING to contribute to that narrative. She was ticketed because she forgot to renew her car license, she can't get auto repairs without consulting her father, she has no clue how to use a screwdriver, she has an emotional breakdown if her friends forget to tell her when and where the next social gathering is and she's finally paying attention to that "dry clean only" tag in her clothes. Point is, your H's comments about OW reveal how deep in the fog he is. "She's a great person" (oh really now?)...."she was there for him" (she provided a distraction from reality)....."she has no problem being platonic friends" (how nice of her to approve...she has NO VOTE) (don't get me started on putting her emotional needs head of yours)..... "he doesn't feel right cutting her out of his life" (and what about boinking a 23 year old instead of fighting for his marriage and his children felt wrong) and my favorite "she doesn't want to be a home wrecker" (that ship done sailed!!) She had NO regard for your family....imagine the level of selfishness and immaturity she was engaging in when she thought her "friendship" with your H was more important than the emotional stability of HIS children. She doesn't care about your H one bit, but he thinks she does. Once my H started to come out of the fog our R was catapulted when I asked him to look around his home, to gaze at his children and even the dogs, and then I pointed out to him that he was about to give it all up for a desperate 40-something divorcee who just needed some attention, a self-absorbed soccer mom princess who had an emotional breakdown every time she stubbed her toe, and finally by feeding the ego of a woman who by all accounts consumed as much ego each day as I do my morning Starbucks.

By the way, I'm not sure if it was mentioned here, but your H has very low self esteem.

Best to you. Stay strong.


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## highwood

so_conflicted said:


> highwood,
> You have an excellent point. I have no way of knowing at all. It is simply his word, which he has proven can mean nothing.
> All I can do is go with my intuition and try to trust with eyes wide open, but I have no way of knowing anything at all. I should bring this up to H.
> The only thing I could do is try to contact one of his female colleagues that has been at the company forever and has close contact to H and tell her the whole story and ask her to keep an eye on him. She's been through D 2 or 3 times, she might actually help me, but honestly I don't know her all that well.
> I definitely am willing to use the expose at work card if I ever find out that it's still going on and then we are over, no matter what because I will know that he can't and won't ever change.
> I stupidly feel like everyone screws up (some much worse than others) and that everyone deserves a second chance to prove then can be a better person.
> I have never seen/met her. I looked for a facebook profile and couldn't find one. The only thing I found was a linked in profile without a pic. Long ago H mentioned her when she was first hired (because there aren't a lot of women at his company) and I asked if she was pretty and he said "no not really she's an engineer so I guess she's kind of a nerdy cute?"
> I keep saying this and I'm sure all of you are rolling your eyes at how wet behind the ears I am but I really do believe it's over and H won't go back to the affair mainly because of the drama it will cause everyone and he absolutely hates drama. With a passion.
> Maybe soon my own fog will lift, but I can't shake the feeling that this is a done deal and he is being honest about things. So sorry to disappoint. I hope I don't live to regret this trust I'm giving him, but I think that if I gave up after the first (albeit HUGE) mistake that I would always regret that I didn't give my M a fighting chance.


If you can trust that gal at work then go for it...the only thing is what if she says something to somebody else and so on. Workplace is a great breeding ground for gossip.

I hope that he is being honest with you and has truly learned a lesson from this. Do what you think is best..if you truly want to save this marriage then do it but at the same time be cautious and aware at all times. Please keep updating here and if the worst case scenario happens just in case we are all here for advice and support. Take care


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## so_conflicted

I agree with the low self esteem part. He has made comments for years about all the things he wished he'd done. Like join the military, had his own bank account, learn to play an instrument, stuck with skateboarding (i guess he was pretty good back in the day)
I agree that this 23 year old has nothing to offer short of excitement and an ego boost that he can score young tail. They have work in common but he hates talking about work outside of the office. She fed his ego as you said about your H. She is too young, self-absorbed and immature to have respect for our our marriage, kids or even herself. she knows what she is A HOMEWRECKER but is trying to fool herself into thinking the marriage was over. But ultimately, he was the married one, he did go to her apt when she invited him for "lunch", he is the one who had the most to lose.
I definitely need a zen moment. I can try to escape to my bedroom before H comes home and while the kids do their homework. I can't get this out of my head for even one minute. I do feel like I need to act soon before it does get swept under the rug, but I'm not sure how far to take things. I need to see what happens with the NC and letter, although I never will really know what is truly happening unless H tells he (assuming he's honest) or if I try to get a colleague of his to spy for me.


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## alte Dame

There is another poster here, daisygirl41, whose H had an EA>PA, went into false R, left the house to live with the OW & then came home begging for forgiveness. He worked with the OW. The poster accepted him back and they are a year into R. He still works with the OW, so it can be done. Check out her threads. It could help.


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## highwood

So conflicted...your gut will guide you thru this process. Your H will have to accept that now more than ever you will be vigilant about things. The trust is gone and he has to work to repair that.


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## highwood

alte Dame said:


> There is another poster here, daisygirl41, whose H had an EA>PA, went into false R, left the house to live with the OW & then came home begging for forgiveness. He worked with the OW. The poster accepted him back and they are a year into R. He still works with the OW, so it can be done. Check out her threads. It could help.


I concur with Alte Dames post about Daisy41..I just went back and read some of her posts..I think they will help you greatly. Sounds like they have been in R for about a year now and her husband still works with the OW. Some great info for you!


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## confused4322

I just want to say that my husband done the same thing. He sounded totally confused about what he wanted to do and also refused to quit his job. As long as she is still in the picture he will stay confused. If you have ever heard of the affair "fog" he won't be able to get out till there is no contact. After that it still may take a little while, but eventually he will see the whole picture.


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## LongWalk

so_conflicted said:


> highwood,
> You have an excellent point. I have no way of knowing at all. It is simply his word, which he has proven can mean nothing.
> All I can do is go with my intuition and try to trust with eyes wide open, but I have no way of knowing anything at all. I should bring this up to H.
> The only thing I could do is try to contact one of his female colleagues that has been at the company forever and has close contact to H and tell her the whole story and ask her to keep an eye on him. She's been through D 2 or 3 times, she might actually help me, but honestly I don't know her all that well.
> I definitely am willing to use the expose at work card if I ever find out that it's still going on and then we are over, no matter what because I will know that he can't and won't ever change.
> I stupidly feel like everyone screws up (some much worse than others) and that everyone deserves a second chance to prove then can be a better person.
> I have never seen/met her. I looked for a facebook profile and couldn't find one. The only thing I found was a linked in profile without a pic. You should request to be linked to her. If your husband comes back and is pissy, you'll know she went and talked to him and he doesn't really have NC in operation.Long ago H mentioned her when she was first hired (because there aren't a lot of women at his company) and I asked if she was pretty and he said "no not really she's an engineer so I guess she's kind of a nerdy cute?" If she's not very pretty, she may be lapping up the attention from your H.
> I keep saying this and I'm sure all of you are rolling your eyes at how wet behind the ears I am but I really do believe it's over and H won't go back to the affair mainly because of the drama it will cause everyone and he absolutely hates drama. With a passion.
> Maybe soon my own fog will lift, but I can't shake the feeling that this is a done deal and he is being honest about things. So sorry to disappoint. I hope I don't live to regret this trust I'm giving him, but I think that if I gave up after the first (albeit HUGE) mistake that I would always regret that I didn't give my M a fighting chance.


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## Busy Accountant

Conflicted

You sound exhausted, understandably so.

Take a few days to rest as best you can, then take a look at the threads here regarding ways to track H. A GPS will let you know if he "lunches" at her place, etc. See what you may be able to use to "trust but verify".

If you believe him, then there is something else you need to do, and yep, I'd do this pretty quickly.....maybe sometime next week. Find an MC for the two of you and truly start to evaluate your marriage with the goal of making it better. Some of the things he always wanted to do, can still be done! What about joining the military appealed to him? How can he get that given his currently life situation? OK, he might not be able to skateboard, but can he help with local competitions? How can you support him? In the meantime, he owes you the same support in recovering from this trauma. You both may need IC as well. Invest in your future! Conflicted, you two are still quite young and you are going to be empty nesters with a lot of living left to do! The person who invigorates H the most is the one who supports his dreams. OW will have NOTHING on you if you two can pull this off! Don't back down.


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## highwood

I think too for DaisyGirl who posted just very recently...as her H still works with his OW..that she is still struggling a year later. So it can be done but it is still not easy. I don't know how she does it honestly.

In my situation H's OW is across the ocean and a year later I still have many moments where I still get so angry and still feel so hurt about what he did. If he worked with her and saw her every day, honestly I would probably not be with him because my paranoia would be thru the roof...anytime he said I have to stay late or anything like that I would probably fly down the highway to check if his vehicle was really at work. I would be a mess....and honestly I probably would not be able to function very well because I would be consumed with paranoia and wondering..did he see her today, did they talk, etc. etc.

That is what I think will await you..everyday you will be wondering did they talk, etc. etc.


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## confused4322

I forgot to add that yes we are still together and it is a struggle everyday. I think that him not quitting sooner and me allowing him to stay here during all of this (yes while he was still sleeping with her and lying behind my back) has made it even harder. I think I have even more resentment that he kept doing it, yet still staying here with his family. When I was in your position I was holding on to the hope that he would choose his family and now I mad because we never should have been considered a choice. So my advice to you would be don't let him continue to hurt you, but your kids as well. My daughters are both teenagers and they knew it was going on. There was no way to hide, although I wish there had been. You have to know that you deserve more and I can see that I did and they did as well now. So if he does leave and don't come back that would be better than trying to make him stay. Even if you contact his family it to me would still feel like he would be just trying to do the right thing and not what he really wanted and you will always question that.


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## highwood

confused4322 said:


> I forgot to add that yes we are still together and it is a struggle everyday. I think that him not quitting sooner and me allowing him to stay here during all of this (yes while he was still sleeping with her and lying behind my back) has made it even harder. I think I have even more resentment that he kept doing it, yet still staying here with his family. When I was in your position I was holding on to the hope that he would choose his family and now I mad because we never should have been considered a choice. So my advice to you would be don't let him continue to hurt you, but your kids as well. My daughters are both teenagers and they knew it was going on. There was no way to hide, although I wish there had been. You have to know that you deserve more and I can see that I did and they did as well now. So if he does leave and don't come back that would be better than trying to make him stay. Even if you contact his family it to me would still feel like he would be just trying to do the right thing and not what he really wanted and you will always question that.


I like what you said..sometimes us as the BS are so grateful that they chose to stay with us..when in reality they should be grateful that we chose to keep them around. 

I still shudder when after DD#2 I said in MC that I am glad that he gave me a second chance..WTF? He should have been saying that to me..that just shows you how when you are in that frame of mind you will do or say anything just to keep the person around. 

And like you said I was the one that he was married to, we had known each other for 23 years at that point...of course he should have chosen me over some desperate immigrant who wanted a better life in Canada, someone he only knew for 6 weeks.


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## so_conflicted

I just got a text from him saying that his day has been absolutely miserable and that we need to talk tonight. I'm assuming that this first day of NC (although he hasn't written the letter yet) has been harder than he imagined.
I am so scared but I am pretty sure the talk he wants to have is either that 
1. he is done with the M because he isn't willing to meet my demands or 
2. that he has decided to quit his job because NC is too difficult HIGHLY DOUBT IT'S THIS ONE
he has himself totally convinced that life is better as a free man. I can't make him see otherwise. He just has to try it out and see for himself. Maybe he's right and he will be happy. I just don't know. I'll try to update after the talk or tomorrow.


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## highwood

Yes, please let us know...stay strong. YOU can have a great life with or without him


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## Remains

Don't try and second guess what he wants to talk about (impossible!). Your mind will be on overdrive. 

But, do stay strong. Think of yourself as Thor, a mighty warrior, an amazingly forceful and unbeatable Boudicea. Know you are better on your own than with a man who wants to treat you 2nd, 3rd rate. And hopefully with this mindset you will be ready for 'battle' and prepared for anything. Remaining strong, calm, resourceful, and no pushover for any shi*ty actions at your expense.

You are the unbeatable warrior princess with armour made from that which no man has ever seen! 

You can always crumble later when out of sight.

Maybe he just wants to tell you he is an arse! I doubt it though.


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## walkonmars

Don't let him talk you into a "trial separation" - that's cheat-speak for permission to play house with the young gal while you remain safely in the background tending to the kids. 

He's either in or he's out. He gets a choice but you have a say in the "out" say too.


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## so_conflicted

Thanks everyone. I am in full blown panic mode right now waiting for him to get home so we can "talk" I can't stop thinking of what he's going to say. I'm pretty sure I know, but waiting and thinking and thinking and thinking just suck! I want so badly for him to say he's going to leave his job to ensure NC but deep down I just can't convince myself that he will actually say he's willing to do that. 
I am so scared, I know I am not responsible for what he did but I feel so guilty that my kids lives are going to be turned upside down. I finally broke down and told a good friend everything and she told me that HE turned their lives upside down, but that realization doesn't make it any easier for them to go through.
How do I get through this? More important, how do I stay strong enough to help my girls get through this without falling apart myself?
I just know he's going to come home and say that he's done and that he's leaving. I feel like such a loser and a faliure


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## walkonmars

Panic is understandable. Be as strong as you can be. 

Listen more than you talk. Don't make any promises or commitments until your emotions are more settled.


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## sandc

so_conflicted said:


> Thanks everyone. I am in full blown panic mode right now waiting for him to get home so we can "talk" I can't stop thinking of what he's going to say. I'm pretty sure I know, but waiting and thinking and thinking and thinking just suck! I want so badly for him to say he's going to leave his job to ensure NC but deep down I just can't convince myself that he will actually say he's willing to do that.
> I am so scared, I know I am not responsible for what he did but I feel so guilty that my kids lives are going to be turned upside down. I finally broke down and told a good friend everything and she told me that HE turned their lives upside down, but that realization doesn't make it any easier for them to go through.
> How do I get through this? More important, how do I stay strong enough to help my girls get through this without falling apart myself?
> I just know he's going to come home and say that he's done and that he's leaving. I feel like such a loser and a faliure


YOU ARE NOT A LOSER! 

:nono: :nono: :nono:


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## cledus_snow

the only other thing i'd like to add is, i think your husband is one selfish SOB. 

i'd tell him to shut the f*ck up and quit the b1tchin' n moanin'. i wanted to be a pro athlete but it didn't work out that way. doesn't mean i'm gonna blow up my family by chasing young tail for an ego boost. i have responsibilities to people in my life. get over youself a$$hole!


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## so_conflicted

So here's the update...
We talked and he said he doesn't want to try. He said he felt that way months ago , before the A when he told me he just wanted to be on his own and that I talked him into trying at that point and he just doesn't want to. It took everything I had in me to just respond with "Ok, I know I deserve someone who wants to be with me." He agreed with me and we basically had a civilized talk about what to tell the girls and when we would plan to actually move out/sell the house and how to start dividing bills etc.
It was all very calm and even though I was dying inside knowing that he doesn't want me, I tried to act like I was fine with it. I did break down a couple times but it was brief.
We told the kids and they took it better than expected until they asked why we were splitting up. They are both pretty angry with H because he told them "I was a bad boy and I cheated" but he did it with a smirk on his face! I told him that this is not a funny matter and he said "I know, it's not at all" I don't think he was trying to be an a-hole I think he was really embarrassed to talk about sex with our children, but still it was awful for them to see him smirking about it. They had lots of questions in general not just about the A. but the first question after he admitted the A was to me, the youngest said "Why don't you just forgive him?" I was honest and told her that I wanted to but both people have to want to work through it to rebuild the trust.
Later in the evening our 11 year old lost it. sobbing that she didn't want to move and that she just wanted us all to always be a family and that nothing would even be good again etc. It was horrible I completely lost it and tried to tell her that we both love her and always will be there for her etc. I am so worried about how hard this is going to be on her. Our 14 year old just seemed pissed after he admission. I tried to get her to talk but all she said is "It just proves what I already knew about boys, they're stupid" I hope she doesn't stay bitter toward men for too long. I reminded her that H had been a good husband and father for 15 years and that there are a lot of terrific men out there.
We are telling our families this weekend.
This morning I am just sad and still hoping that somehow he'll change his mind before our official move out date (July 1) and he will want to do all the work it takes to fix our M but I know that's just desperate wishful thinking, which I am NOT sharing with the kids, I don't want to give them false hope. Doing a 180 just in case.
Just when I think I've reached the deepest pain I've ever known it just starts to hurt worse.


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## highwood

Sorry to hear that! It is painful and you will feel sad for a while but....slowly very slowly each day you will being to feel a little better. This will be hard on your kids..I admire your ability to remind your kids about what kind of a dad he was for all those years.

Definently continue to do the 180. 

I do wonder if the NC thing is what pushed him...I wonder if they still want to see each other but realize if that is the case there is only a 3% chance of them ever working out. Even less with the age difference...no way a 23 year old will want to hang out with a 40 year old for very long. I suspect your H over time will regret what he was done and do not be surprised if he tries to come crawling back but by that point you will have moved on. That is my prediction.

I am sorry for the pain you are experiencing.

Can I recommend for you to do lots of reading as well..both self help as well as fiction...I started reading Danielle Steele novels and I found her books to be very inspirational. I read one of hers recently about a woman whose H leaves her for a younger woman and it is so painful for her (I cried when she was going thru all the emotional stuff because all of us BS's can relate to the pain) but...she eventually comes to peace with it slowly and moves on and has some very interesting experiences and finds love again. 

Private message me if you want.


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## maincourse99

He is so selfish. Hurting your children (and you) to chase young women is deplorable, and even though he may have been a "good husband and father" for 15 years, he's no longer that man.

Remember, you can only control yourself. You are now the responsible adult here, don't be afraid to get to a psychiatrist if your anxiety to be more than you can handle, or if you have trouble sleeping. They can prescribe something to get you through the rough spots.

You need to be strong for your kids. I've been through a very similar situation and now my ex works 7 nights a week and has very little to do with our daughter. I thought she was a better person than that, but when they go down this road, expect the worst. 

I wish you all the best.


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## LongWalk

Sorry for you and your girls. Much earlier when you wrote:



> I'm afraid to lose him because of our children because of finances, and because I love him. I worry that if I push these ultimatums/demands that I will lose him because of his fear of control from they way I've been all these years that he was honest.


I couldn't help but think that your priorities accurately listed in order of importance: (1) children (2) finances = order = stability (3) love for him. He probably sensed that.

The 23-year-old, unless they have some really unusual and terrific connection, will not last long. What do they even have to talk about?

Do the 180. There is not a lot of hope to stop D but you'll recover.

My two daughters were younger than yours when my ex and I split but they survived divorce. Encourage to you stbx to be a good dad, praise him for it even if you feel like tickling him with an icepick.


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## mg2977

I am so sorry and I know the pain is just unbearable. Please take it easy on yourself and try to do one thing everyday just for you and that will make you smile (even if that smile only lasts a few seconds).

Your H threw a good life away all bc of his selfish desires and he may not realize it now but someday it will hit him and he will have to live with himself. And by then you will not even care how he feels bc you will have moved on to better things. 

I know you said you told one of your good friends and that is important as you need people to lean on right now. You may also be surprised when you start telling people, how many people are truly going to support you and want to help, even people you never thought of as good friends (one of my STBEXH's friends took me out the day I served my D papers and had to basically hold me up bc I was so distraught). For the rest of my life I am indebted to some very wonderful people who stood by me and supported me every step of the way. So just remember there are good people out there that love you and will be there for you. 

I agree with the other posters that your H is in for a rude awakening with this OW and I believe his fantasy will crash and burn sooner rather than later. She is 23 and somehow I really do not see them having that much in common or that her friends are really going to want to hang out with a 40 year old man with 2 kids. Your H is living in rainbow and unicorn land, but nothing you say will make him wake up, but your actions (the 180 etc.) may.

Start the 180, take care of yourself and your girls. Let yourself cry, scream whatever just do not do it in front of your H. You are stronger than you think you are and have handled yourself well. You and your girls deserve better and you will be ok. You will have a good life, maybe a different life than you planned to have but you will be better off. 

Good luck, stay strong and you may want to call your doctor if you need something to help with sleepless nights and the anxiety you will experience.


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## badmemory

conflicted,

I'm very sorry for your pain. But you sound like you're a strong woman and I'm sure you'll get through this. Focus on yourself and your children. Contact an attorney, your doctor (for meds) and think about getting some IC.

My impression is that his story is just a cover-up. Perhaps he was unhappy in the marriage; but don't believe this isn't all about his affair with the POSOW. I believe he was looking for an exit partner and found one.

If you truly have thoughts about wanting to R with him, please think twice about that. But whether you want to or not, the strategy is the same. Do the 180, and don't ever waiver on your requirements for no contact, transparency, etc., should he try to come crawling back - assuming you would still want to R.

I know you're hurt but you should also be angry. Channel that anger into resolve. Use the 180 to detach and start working on yourself.

Best of luck and keep us updated.


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## alte Dame

I'm sorry for your pain. Please do the 180 to help yourself.

FWIW, I need to say that these behaviors follow extremely similar patterns. Your H's behavior tells us that most likely this OW showed up at work and he got infatuated. Once he was hooked, he started to find (sub)conscious reasons for wanting out of your marriage. So, he believes that he wants to leave you & gives himself tacit permission to cheat. He still wants the OW and definitely didn't want NC, so now he will be free to follow up with her. She is a young woman, though, and it won't work out for them. He will by that time be split up from his family and see that his independent life has all of the pitfalls that his married life had, but now he has to see his kids on 'his days.'

That's the script, OP. I'm sorry that you're playing your part in it. Do the 180. Protect your heart as much as you can from here on out. Good luck.


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## so_conflicted

I agree with all of you that this fantasy of being Mr. independent is far better than what the reality of it will be. 
He was pretty angry this morning wanting to know why we had to tell the kids what he did. He said now they will see him as "the bad guy" and their relationship is damaged and he can't be the kind of dad he wants to be because they are angry with him. 
We started with the "we're splitting up because things just aren't working" talk. After the talk the girls went upstairs and kept asking each other why and then came and asked me why. They needed to know what caused this. 
I tried to explain to H this morning that it's the fact the he doesn't want to stay and fix this that they are angry about. They feel like he doesn't care, even if they weren't told about the A they would be angry that he just wants out. 
I can't imagine ho hurt they would be if they knew how much he's chomping at the bit to get back with her. 
Last night I said "we aren't moving on with other people until we are in separate households right and he had a puzzled look and said "Um, well if we both agree that this is over why do we need to do that?" I explained that it would be hard on the kids. Also, he said he was wants to work through this separation pleasantly but if things get to be miserable he will just leave immediately. I asked where he would go and of course it's to OW's SPARE bedroom (yeah right) I told him just walking out on the kids would be so damaging and going to OW place would make it that much worse. He didn't seem to understand why the kids would hate him for that if we all knew the M was over. 
Ugh! So now I'm trying to get the kids to forgive his indifference about breaking up the family so he doesn't abandon them before we have everything divided/sold and new place to live etc.
How dare he have the nerve to be mad at me because I felt that they had a right to know, they would be mad even if they didn't know about the A.


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## alte Dame

You have to know that he is leaving FOR HER. Not because of problems with you. He thinks that saying the marriage is over is a green light for him to get back to her - and even if they stopped having sex for a while, they never stopped the A.

He will stay in the house with you and be together with her. Do you want that? If it's over, kick him out. Let him go to her and see what his new life is like with a 23-yo. It won't last long. If it does, he will be defying the odds in a big way.

Please restart the 180 for your own mental health.


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## Busy Accountant

I'm very sorry Conflicted.

I took a look at your earlier posts. Your H was telling you that YOU couldn't deal with his A and he was quick to leave. Bottom line, he wanted to end the M but was prodding you to do it! H is a manipulative coward. It doesn't feel like it now, but you have achieved your first victory by making HIM make the big decision and be responsible and accountable for HIS actions.

July 1 is a long time away. I wonder if its too long for you to face him every day. What anguish! Its also prolonging the inevitable for your girls. It seems your timing is based on finances. Conflicted, you are WORTH the investment it may take to have him out the door way earlier than that. Let his mama deal with him. He clearly has the emotional maturity of an 18 year old. That's why the 23 year old seems so attractive. Do not "hope" that he's going to come to his senses prior to July 1 and work on the marriage. He has some growing up to do. He has to do that alone.

Consider all the resources you are going to need in the coming months. Be good to yourself. You are already accepting a lot of blame here. Invest in some IC for yourself. You need to sort out fact from fiction. You will also gain insight around your control issues. Work toward your own peace of mind. Also, talk to a school counselor about your situation. They may be able to suggest books, etc for you to read to help your girls. They can also recommend a good IC for them. There are two reasons for IC for your girls. Obviously, they will need help in dealing with this. The second reason (and I have personal experience in this) is that their IC will be a comfort to you. You will know someone has your back with respect to the emotional well being of your girls. In the coming months, on those days when you just can't be strong, you'll know someone else is looking out for them.

Finally, the smirk was unforgivable.

There are more people pulling for you on here than you realize. Continue to look to TAM for support.


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## BK23

This is terrible. What a callous bastard. You deserve so much better. Expose to everyone. Expose to his work. Put her up on cheaterville. No matter what BS narrative she and your husband have cooked up, she is a home-wrecking *****, and he is a cheating prick.


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## highwood

I always see these older guys and they end up getting married to a younger woman and having children and you can tell that they are probably thinking this is exahusting why did I do this? I think once as the wow I am hot I got a young chick thing wears off reality sets in and it is like what have I done???


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## sandc

So, so sorry you're going through this. I agree with those who have predicted that this will not last. I just hope you've moved on by then. I know you feel rejected and hurt and frustrated but please remember, this isn't about you it's about him. There are plenty of men out there that want you. Don't pin your self-esteem on the fact that a cheater doesn't want you. You don't want a cheater either do you?

Really?? He didn't want to look like a bad guy in front of the kids. Well.... then don't be a bad guy! It really is that easy!

He is still very much in the fog. The fog will bust one day when she is tired of the novelty of an older man and wants someone her own age. He will have to eventually settle for a woman that is of far lower quality than you. This is only after going through several painful breakups for him. I don't understand him, I don't ever want to date again!


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## highwood

OMG your H is such an ass! Wait until they start getting on each others nerves...that will happen pretty quickly! What an idiot they both are! Trash deserves trash!


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## sandc

highwood said:


> I always see these older guys and they end up getting married to a younger woman and having children and you can tell that they are probably thinking this is exahusting why did I do this? I think once as the wow I am hot I got a young chick thing wears off reality sets in and it is like what have I done???


I doubt they will marry. I think he was just a fun fling for her and possibly still is. She will tire of him and trade him in for a younger model.


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## highwood

sandc said:


> I doubt they will marry. I think he was just a fun fling for her and possibly still is. She will tire of him and trade him in for a younger model.


No, they will not marry! Plus even if they did relationshiops that start as affairs only have a 3% chance of working out..pretty risky! Plus add the age difference in there...This guy is taking a huge risk! He will regret it! So will his OW...she is just as trashy!


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## LongWalk

> I can't imagine how hurt they would be if they knew how much he's chomping at the bit to get back with her. Good thing you're going protect them from this ugly truth
> Last night I said "we aren't moving on with other people until we are in separate households right and he had a puzzled look and said "Um, well if we both agree that this is over why do we need to do that?" From his point of view you are just trying to delay his gratification out of spite.I explained that it would be hard on the kids. His priorities are probably job, her, kids, self and you and of course himself instead of the commas
> Also, he said he was wants to work through this separation pleasantly but if things get to be miserable he will just leave immediately. I asked where he would go and of course it's to OW's SPARE bedroom (yeah right) I told him just walking out on the kids would be so damaging and going to OW place would make it that much worse. He didn't seem to understand why the kids would hate him for that if we all knew the M was over. You should point out to him that if believes OW is going to be part of his life in the long term, he ought to plan to introduce her properly. The way he is doing it now will make your daughters hate her. They don't need to deal with evil stepmother scene.
> Ugh! So now I'm trying to get the kids to forgive his indifference about breaking up the family so he doesn't abandon them before we have everything divided/sold and new place to live etc.
> How dare he have the nerve to be mad at me because I felt that they had a right to know, they would be mad even if they didn't know about the A.You had to tell them sooner or later. It was his choice.


Would you consider asking to meet her so that the three of you could talk about how your daughters can best be protected? Although you have every reason to dislike her, it would be good to know if you are dealing with an otherwise sane and reasonable person who has made a foolish choice in getting involved with your H, or some unstable, needy individual who is going harm your children due to her low emotional intelligence.


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## so_conflicted

I know there's no way he would marry her. He has said he will never marry again so it would take something/someone pretty exceptional to get him to feel differently. I know she isn't that.
I know the A is the reason he is leaving, he wants to start it up again, big time! It was exciting and new. His complaints about the marriage made him feel justified in committing the biggest betrayal in a M. The story about wanting out might have a shred of truth but never enough to motivate him to do anything until OW came along. It's all because of his desire for her, but I am positive their "fling" is sure to disappoint in short order. 
I just hate that this is tearing the kids up that he is just fine with busting up the family. They are extremely disappointed in him and feel like they really don't matter to him.


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## sandc

I believe the term is "exit affair". So sorry. I wish I had something to offer here but I have nothing other than sympathy. If you're a Christian I could pray for you if you like.


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## Foolish1

Did you expose to your families yet? With his attitude my goal would be to get him out of the house ASAP.

I'm so sorry you (and your daughters) are going through this. Like others though, I really do think you'll be better off in the long run. Please don't beat yourself up over the bad things you did in the marriage. I'm sure he did just as many bad things and this doesn't include the A. At least all your crap was out in the open and he had the full story to make his decision.


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## Busy Accountant

"He was pretty angry this morning wanting to know why we had to tell the kids what he did. He said now they will see him as "the bad guy" and their relationship is damaged and he can't be the kind of dad he wants to be because they are angry with him. "
He already isn't the kind of dad he wants to be. If he doesn't want to accept the blame then it would land on YOU!

"Also, he said he was wants to work through this separation pleasantly but if things get to be miserable he will just leave immediately. I asked where he would go and of course it's to OW's SPARE bedroom (yeah right)" This is the school-aged equivalent of taking your ball and going home if you don't like the results of the game.....except he has two...until you surgically remove them during D. It may not be a bluff about OW's apartment, but he is using that threat to control you.

You need to find out of you are a fault or no-fault state. Solidify your evidence. Let him spill his guts to family about his A. It may be useful to you in the future.

Also, you may want to remind him that OW better be using birth control. It is NOT beyond the realm of possibility that she will get pregnant in order to cement their relationship. I've seen it happen with early 20-somethings......class mates of my daughter's. Tell him to picture life with 4 kids.....your two, the 23 year old, and a brand spankin' new baby!


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## Acabado

Good riddance. Tell him to grab the rest of the trash with him.
At the first trace of this affair continuing you should kick him out. No flaunting, rubbing it with utter disrespect. Don't fear anything.


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## walkonmars

Believe this if you believe nothing else: If she hadn't joined his work firm you wouldn't be having the kind of problems you're having. The problems HE sees are through the lens that exists between the young girls thighs. 

It's not your job to excuse his behavior to his children. You don't have to be vindictive but don't sugar coat the truth. The truth is that 
He
Is 
Leaving 
You 
For 
HER. case closed. 

See an atty at once. Protect yourself and your kids financially. Start the 180 (bottom of my post).


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## so_conflicted

He had a vasectomy about 10 years ago, so no new babies in his future which is even more liberating for him, NO CONSEQUENCES! Their company is medical and they really push blood donation and he had the nerve to tell me that he is also a regular blood donor and since they screen for everything every time he knows she is completely free of any type of STD. Wow, am I supposed to be happy for them?
We are exposing to our family this weekend. He said he has no problem telling them what he did, he is willing to take responsibility for it.
I would ask him to leave sooner, but financially we need a bonus that he has coming as well as to sell his useless little convertible car. Besides, I can't bear to tell the kids that by kicking him out I basically shoved him into OW bed, because he has no other place to go. His mother is going to be devastated and furious and never drop it so he would never go to her place. She is sweet but tends to ride him pretty hard about little things so this will be off the charts.
My youngest broke down saying she doesn't want to leave the only home she's ever known. The only way I can afford to stay in our house if if H mom comes to live with me and the girls and pay me what she pays currently for her appt. We have a very good relationship and she love the girls and I could see her really wanting to be there to help them through this. But I think in time it could get weird if I eventually wanted to move on with another man down the road. H could even move into her 1 bdrm apt and take over the rent there! Any thoughts? I just want to make this as smooth as possible for my kids.


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## walkonmars

talk to a lawyer. He may have to pony up for the mortgage payment to keep his kids standard of living. Don't cave in to his moping about not being able to afford it. 

Since he's moving in with her, he's saving money - unless of course if he is going to pay her rent - which is something you should know. 

Don't make him any promises. Push for all you can get to maintain your kids standard of living. He owes them that!


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## mg2977

I completely agree that if she had not started working with your H, you would not be having the problems you are having. He is using his "unhappiness" in the marriage as an excuse because he wants to take no responsibility for deciding having sex with a 23 year old girl is why he chose to destroy his family. 

So I would first expose the A, to your family and his workplace. I know it seems good that he is willing to tell his family but I would be leery of what he intends to tell them. He probably intends to tell them that you have both been unhappy/having marital issues and this separation/D was a long time coming. He may admit the A, but it will not be that he had an A and his marriage is over, it will be he was so unhappy and you were so controlling that he met someone/had an A and while it was wrong for him to cheat, it just solidified to him that your marriage was over (this is all bull**** please know this). So maybe you want to preempt his "version" of the events. 

I know you do not want to expose at work because of money and medical insurance issues, but I may still consider it. 

Also you need to consult with a D attorney asap, know your rights, possibly file for D (this does not mean its over yet). Nothing will break up their happy fantasy land like this reality, including if he moves out with OW, then you should look for temporary orders for alimony & child support and a court order stating what bills he is responsible for. Also if he moves in with OW and is helping pay rent, that may be considered marital waste (of your money) and that could help you later on in a possible D settlement. So you need to speak with an attorney (do not tell H what you are doing) asap. Oh and you could serve your H divorce papers at work (slight exposure without putting his job at risk). 

I say now is the time to start playing hardball with him. He wants the 23 year old, let him go to her! You may think you are pushing him into the OW's bed (which technically you are) but by living with her some reality will begin to invade their fantasy land. I would even offer to help him pack and deliver his stuff to her apartment (I did offer this, but STBEX refused to move in with his OW at that time). Just because he moves out does not mean he has no financial responsibilities to you, your girls and your home. Oh and no 23 year old is going to want some 40 year old boyfriend who has no money bc he has alimony/child support obligations and marital debt, especially if this effects her fun. 

Also do not tell him much, if anything about your plans or what you are thinking. Only listen to him, gather any evidence you need and then you just sit back and watch the circus unfold. Also remember do not take anything he may say to you seriously because he is/has rewritten your marital history. 

From personal experience, I believe it will be healthier for you and the girls if he does leave. It will allow you space to start to heal. I may be wrong, this is just my opinion, as it is the worst feeling in the world to see your H pack an overnight bag to go stay with OW or to know that he is not home because he is sleeping at her place. 

Just remember you and your girls will be ok. Do the 180, try to show him no emotion and act like you are moving on (even when you feel dead inside). Tell yourself you will be ok and this is not your fault!!


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## alte Dame

He has been putting this on you all along. As others have said, make no mistake - he is leaving his family to go be with a 23-yo homewrecker. That is the reality. You sound like you get that, so don't cave and start to question yourself.

He will spin the same story to all and sundry. Keep your story simple and stick to it:

"My H met a 23-yo girl at work and decided she was what he wanted. He started sleeping with her secretly before he asked me for a divorce."

Take zero responsibility for his behavior when you talk to the family. If they start to go off on that, you say, 'we all have our problems. You don't solve them by having affairs.'

Acabado said it is time to have 'no fear.' This is it! No fear.

Find a way to get him out of the house. Let him go to her and sink his own ship with his reputation at work and with his family. Believe me, the chip on his shoulder will begin to fall off soon enough as his self-esteem sinks lower and lower.

When one WH here was faced with the ultimate consequences of his A, he tellingly cried, 'I am not a scumbag!' Your H won't like what he has become. He may be smirking now, but that won't last.

No fear.


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## LongWalk

You're sounding strong. Hang in there
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## walkonmars

Great advice mg2977. 

Expose the affair to their work. You can do it casually - call up HR and ask them how long your kids can remain on his health insurance. Then ask if his "relationship" with the OW will affect any of his insurances. 

Or you can just write a letter and ask about their non-fraternization policy. (This is the time of year big companies remind their employees that such policies exist and must be acknowledged by email signature - so it will be fresh on the HR dept mind)

Talk to a lawyer ASAP - don't say anything to your husband about any of this. This is a war plan for you. Don't let your battle plans out. 

You can be sure he will cite "marriage problems we both agree we have" as the cause of the breakup. Don't let that happen. He's not anywhere near as 'sweet' as you think. Conniving. Yes. Sweet. No


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## so_conflicted

H says that he wants to be on his own and that staying with the OW is only an option if he needs to get out ASAP, because we do not have the $ at the moment for a deposit, first month rent etc. until his bonus comes. He says he never has any intention of staying there long term it is only out of a immediate need. He mentioned that he would be saving up while he was there until he could get out on his own, so I get the impression he wouldn't be paying her rent but he hasn't explicitly said that.
I agree I need to know my rights but I can't afford an attorney. I will look for free consultations and see what advice they can give me. Also, my mom has an attorney friend who is handling my brother's child support case for a flat rate. I might have to expose to her early to see if that attorney might be able to help me for a small fee or consult for free about my rights.


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## sandc

so_conflicted said:


> He had a vasectomy about 10 years ago, so no new babies in his future which is even more liberating for him, NO CONSEQUENCES! Their company is medical and they really push blood donation and he had the nerve to tell me that he is also a regular blood donor and since they screen for everything every time he knows she is completely free of any type of STD. Wow, am I supposed to be happy for them?


Really?? What kind of medical company allows employees to view each other's blood work? He doesn't know squat. If he is assuming she is clean because he is still clean he may just have a shock coming in six months or so. You should get yourself tested just in case.


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## sandc

so_conflicted said:


> H says that he wants to be on his own and that staying with the OW is only an option if he needs to get out ASAP, because we do not have the $ at the moment for a deposit, first month rent etc. until his bonus comes. He says he never has any intention of staying there long term it is only out of a immediate need. He mentioned that he would be saving up while he was there until he could get out on his own, so I get the impression he wouldn't be paying her rent but he hasn't explicitly said that.
> I agree I need to know my rights but I can't afford an attorney. I will look for free consultations and see what advice they can give me. Also, my mom has an attorney friend who is handling my brother's child support case for a flat rate. I might have to expose to her early to see if that attorney might be able to help me for a small fee or consult for free about my rights.


Just about any atty will give you a free consult.


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## walkonmars

His excuse for staying with the OW is pure bulsh!t. PURE. 

He could stay on a friend's couch. He could stay with his mom or at extended stay hotel. Motel 6 etc. 

Don't believe a word he says - he's in a hormonal fog. He needs to get a fix of the co-worker, and I'm sure she's happy to "be there" for him. 

180 = cold shoulder about anything but kids/finances/legal stuff. His plans are his plans. Don't buy ANYthing he says. 

strength!


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## Acabado

so_conflicted said:


> H says that he wants to be on his own and that staying with the OW is only an option if he needs to get out ASAP, because we do not have the $ at the moment for a deposit, first month rent etc. until his bonus comes. He says he never has any intention of staying there long term it is only out of a immediate need. He mentioned that he would be saving up while he was there until he could get out on his own, so I get the impression he wouldn't be paying her rent but he hasn't explicitly said that.
> I agree I need to know my rights but I can't afford an attorney. I will look for free consultations and see what advice they can give me. Also, my mom has an attorney friend who is handling my brother's child support case for a flat rate. I might have to expose to her early to see if that attorney might be able to help me for a small fee or consult for free about my rights.


Bull. He can seek another place to land.
Utter, complete bull.
Let me translate it: he's bulling you, I will keep having my affair anyway, if you don't like I'll move in with her and I will blame it on you.
He's in a place where he doesn't care about anyone but his immediate gratification.


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## Acabado

walkonmars told it better than me.


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## alte Dame

You need to start shifting how you process what he says.

He has been lying. He is lying still. He has been doing this to get what he wants, which is the OW and a blameless exit from your marriage.

If he says that staying in the OW's apartment is just a practical decision -> lying again.

Your H is good at gaslighting you and blameshifting. You want to believe his rationales, but they are NOT TRUE. He is paving the way to her door and he is trying to do it without looking like the bad guy. You are the fall person for this. He is perfectly happy to make you look bad so that he doesn't have to.

Maintain your pride. Find a way to get him out of the house. Expose at work without telling him you are doing it.


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## walkonmars

Acabado said:


> walkonmars told it better than me.


Nobody says it better than you Acabado! No one.


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## so_conflicted

The fact that she is a regular donor means that she passes the blood screen regularly. He went off her word for that. 
I know he can go elsewhere but all of you are right he won't he wants to be with OW. MY greatest fear is that once he goes, without something legal in place his money goes with him. If he just decides to not do the right thing and support me or the kids until a court order is in place we will be absolutely broke. I feel like I can't send him out until I have something stating what he is obligated by law to provide. He will not break the law, jail is his GREATEST fear. But without legal docs, who knows if he'll do the right thing?


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## Busy Accountant

" Besides, I can't bear to tell the kids that by kicking him out I basically shoved him into OW bed, because he has no other place to go."

First of all, I"m not sure your daughters are mature enough to grasp that concept. They are reeling from enough information already.

Second, by forcing him out, you are NOT shoving him into OW's bed!!!!!!! Are you telling me that he TRULY has nowhere else to go? First of all, he could go to his mother's...he doesn't WANT to...he has no other family??? no friends??? Perhaps you can get a refrigerator-sized box for the back yard! YOU ARE BEING MANIPULATED BY THAT ARGUMENT! Kick him out. Its his first experience in true independence! Theoretically he would move OUT of OW"s place on July 1st. If he doesn't his entire decision is on him. I'll place a bet that he stays.

Conflicted, I'm starting to wonder about your control issues.....he has way more control over you than you realize. Things may not be as they seem. Sounds like H has been exploiting your perception of yourself for a long time.

Regardless of his confidence in his lover's cleanliness, get an STD test. Provide him with the results, then let him know you have no further interest in stories of his bodily fluids, blood or otherwise. Glad there will be no more babies.


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## badmemory

Living with his mother is a bad idea. Yes of course it will get awkward at some point, but below are a couple of other reasons. 

You'd have to assume that everything you do or say - he'll know about, perhaps things that would give him an advantage in divorce proceedings; as well as the things you do to protect yourself, your children or your assets. Blood is thicker than water.

It may send him the message that you're not moving forward with your life and will remain his plan B back-up. That will not motivate him to R, if that's what you still want.

Just food for thought.


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## Busy Accountant

Wow - I type too slow and really shouldn't take calls in the midst of replying! Exact same observations from multiple sources.

Conflicted, absorb what you have read. Take a zen moment.


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## badmemory

so_conflicted said:


> The fact that she is a regular donor means that she passes the blood screen regularly. He went off her word for that.
> I know he can go elsewhere but all of you are right he won't he wants to be with OW. MY greatest fear is that once he goes, without something legal in place his money goes with him. If he just decides to not do the right thing and support me or the kids until a court order is in place we will be absolutely broke. *I feel like I can't send him out until I have something stating what he is obligated by law to provide. He will not break the law, jail is his GREATEST fear. But without legal docs, who knows if he'll do the right thing?*


That's why it's important for you to see an attorney ASAP.


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## walkonmars

so_conflicted said:


> The fact that she is a regular donor means that she passes the blood screen regularly. He went off her word for that.
> I know he can go elsewhere but all of you are right he won't he wants to be with OW. MY greatest fear is that once he goes, without something legal in place his money goes with him. If he just decides to not do the right thing and support me or the kids until a court order is in place we will be absolutely broke. I feel like I can't send him out until I have something stating what he is obligated by law to provide. He will not break the law, jail is his GREATEST fear. But without legal docs, who knows if he'll do the right thing?


A lawyer can put a freeze on his assets if you fear he'll abscond with the finances. See one immediately. Job #1 even before trying to break up the affair is to protect your kids. Get to a lawyer. 

If he winds up broke then guess what? HE needs to get a 2nd job delivering pizza - it will fulfill his dream of making it on his own rather than "making it with... " well, you know!


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## alte Dame

Busy Accountant said:


> Conflicted, I'm starting to wonder about your control issues.....he has way more control over you than you realize. Things may not be as they seem. Sounds like H has been exploiting your perception of yourself for a long time.


My thoughts, as well.

You're the controlling one?

He's so obviously manipulative. And then he says you are too controlling? Well, it takes one to know one.

Don't let him control this process anymore. Please, get a legal consult right away so that you can have your financial security settled. Do it asap so that you can feel OK getting him out of the house.


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## mg2977

I really like walkonmars advice about calling HR and asking if his relationship with OW will effect any of his insurances. To expand on this - if your H has a 401K or life insurance policy through work, you could ask if he has changed the beneficiary of these to the OW bc they are now in a relationship. If you do this he will be mad BUT WHO CARES, TOO BAD FOR HIM!! 

And as walkonmars stated say nothing to your H about anything!! Unfortunately he is the enemy and you never give your enemy your battle plan. 

Expose to your mother and go see that attorney bc honestly at this point you cannot afford not to see a lawyer. Even if there is a consultation fee, it will be a small price to pay. Bc he will cry poor, but trust me if OW wants something he will find the money (I think my STBXH bought his OW $1000 shoes etc), so just watch him carefully. 

All his BS about living with her temporarily is BS, he is gaslighting you. Every time your H opens his mouth the only thing that comes out are lies. Oh and do not agree to let him take any money or spend any money bc you do not know where it is going. When I started playing hardball with money to my STBXH, like refusing to pay for things out of our savings bc he was spending like a drunken sailor and I started to think he wanted money for an apartment with OW, he went ballistic and would yell about having no money etc. I would simply tell him too bad, not without a written agreement from the lawyers and that I was so sorry the D was expensive but he should have thought about that before he slipped and put his private parts in OW. 

At this point you owe your H nothing. I would start exposing to your friends as well as family bc I cannot stress enough how much emotional support you are going to need. 

Oh and the STD test line he fed you - no. Get yourself tested asap. 

Oh, your worry about needing something legally binding before he leaves, is a good idea but even if he goes a court can still order him (after his move out) to pay. I do not know where you live, but where I am from it is called "temporary orders" for alimony, child support etc. I had to deal with this months ago bc of my D. 

You hold more power than you think you do, bc he has financial obligations to you and your family - remember that. He can try to bully you all he wants (and he is) but never back down to a bully. 

So do not engage him, 180, tell him none of your ideas/plans, speak only of the kids. Oh and do not cook for him or do his laundry anymore. He wants to be single, he needs to learn how to be single. 

I really think this is going to crash sooner than you think (especially if he goes to live with her).


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## badmemory

mg2977 said:


> To expand on this - if your H has a 401K or life insurance policy through work, you could ask if he has changed the beneficiary of these to the OW bc they are now in a relationship. If you do this he will be mad BUT WHO CARES, TOO BAD FOR HIM!!


Not to nitpick, but legally he can't remove you as beneficiary on his 401-k without your authorization - as long as you're married.


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## mg2977

badmemory - you are totally right about 401K, I typed too fast, as I really meant any profit sharing plans etc


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## karole

Expose at their work place! You take the initiative and go ahead and tell everyone - before he has a chance to sugar coat his version.


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## walkonmars

badmemory said:


> Not to nitpick, but legally he can't remove you as beneficiary on his 401-k without your authorization - as long as you're married.


True, but the objective is to informally out him to HR. Asking if the OW 'could be made the beneficiary without the wife's consent' is merely a ploy. It may not go further in HR than the clerk that answers the question but she could request an answer in writing from the head of HR. 

The most direct way would be to just inquire about the non-frat policy from the head of HR. 

Either way the grapevine will be at work and *maybe* result in public shaming and pressure on both lovers to stop their shenanigans.


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## so_conflicted

It's a huge global company with over 2,000 people at his location calling HR unfortunately won't get the grapevine started, they won't even know who is he beyond his employee #


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## Busy Accountant

Tread cautiously on outing at work. I know the reasons why, but at this point, are you truly interested in busting up the A? Guarantee, its going to end on its own. H is going to be outed all over the place, family and friends. I would consult with an attorney before you out at work, including the roles, responsibilities and reporting structure of H and POSOW. You want to preserve his earning capacity and his access to good health insurance. With the age and experience difference here, there may be fodder for sexual harassment claims on the part of the poor innocent slvt. She may panic or go for revenge as this all comes crashing down.


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## highwood

I think the best thing she can do is get an attorney on her side....someone that will ensure that this jerk can't just shuck his duties.


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## MattMatt

rrrbbbttt said:


> 1. He cannot be friends with her.
> 2. He has to write a NC letter.
> 3. He needs to find a new job away from her.
> 4. Your controlling attitude is not a reason for an affair.
> 5. Do you want to live life without the knowledge that your husband is faithful to you. His actions require you to now checkup on him.


I knew I could never be just friends again with my AP partner. So I wrote her a 'nice' but firm NC letter.


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## daggeredheart

Ok listen.....I'm going to repeat what many above have said and you are not going to think it makes sense because you are in a state of panic and fear......trust trust trust that it works. 

You bring in the boom and the funk-- what is that you say? 

180 hard.... like fast and furious style. What does this accomplish? Your dignity, your sense of self worth, you ability to control your emotions and to lesson interactions with him that would only deepen your wound right now. 

I know what your thinking before you can say it....."but shouldn't I interact with him to show him I can meet his needs, shower him with love and that I'm the one he should choose?" Nope Nope Nope. 

Again, he mentions control because he's manipulating you into being afraid to demand that he honor his vow or he'll leave you. You must not be that controlling for him to manage a EA/PA and even had time to go to her place for lunches......pffft he's gaslighting. 


Triangles-----affairs need them like a fire needs oxygen. Quickest way to kill it, expose and remove yourself. Then he has to rely on only her to fill his emotional needs and the void you leave becomes this gaping black hole but he won't see or feel that until you check out and let him experience that. 

It can seem counterproductive to pull back but interacting, begging or trying to prove your value to him will be pointless and actually push him into her arms....assuming you still even want him back once your shock wears off. 

Sorry you are going through this....it sucks.


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## so_conflicted

More conflicted than ever. Last night was absolutely normal. He came home greeted myself and the girls like nothing had changed. Went directly to apologize to my oldest for what he'd done (he had already apologized to the younger one in the morning) We all ate dinner together and had our normal "how was your day" roundtable discussion. 
In order for him to move out (without going to OW place) we agreed he needs to sell his extra car. To have cash for deposit, first month rent, etc. When he told me Tues that he didn't want to work on M he said he would but the car on Craiglslist that night. I checked this morning and it's still not listed. In order for the kids and I to stay in the house (big fat mortgage) an option I thought of was for his mom to come live with the girls and I. Last night he said he really liked the idea and that we should mention it to her tonight. 
I know how stupid I sound, but I still love him and hope he decides to meet my demands for R and hope that these things like not selling the house mean he's have doubts about his decision to end our M.
I am doing bigtime 180 and he's definitely noticed. He sent me a text today reminding me about a work event after work (I did see the email from the company so I know it's legit...but that doesn't mean that OW won't be there or that that is actually where he's going to be this evening) that he'd be late but still able to pick our daughter up from gymnastics. I just replied with ok and cooly reminded him about our others daughter confirmation tomorrow. He replied with a "Already had it on my calendar, but thank you for the reminder " 
What's with the smiley face? I am so confused but I think he is too. He seems to love our family life, but I'm guessing as soon as he walks out the door it OW that has his heart. I just don't know what to think. I know I probably seem like a fool, but I really do want to try to make this work.


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## BK23

This really stinks. Good on you with the 180, keep it up. Does your husband have a history of lacking empathy? I know you have a strong impulse to keep your family together, but he doesn't sound at all worthy of you. I know he has constructed a narrative--which you have adopted--that you are controlling, and he is the poor put upon husband. From what I have read here, which albeit it a small window into your world, that narrative is BS. This man is cold and manipulative.

PS--better to downgrade houses than live with your ex's mother. This is universally true.


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## so_conflicted

I don't want her to love with us forever, but I think if we could do that for 6 month or a year...long enough for him to realize how unrealistic his fantasy of being on his own was then it would be so much easier to R and so much less disruption for the kids.
He isn't an empathetic person in general. Not cruel, but usually thinks that people reap what they sow kind of personality.
I do have control issue which have improved over the years but he just can't let go of the stuff from 10-12 years ago where I clearly was to blame. I KNOW that what he did is 100% on him and that no matter my issues there is never an excuse to cheat. 
I want to try to keep the house as long as possible in case there is a chance for R in the next year. If at that point he really is blissfully happy being alone then I'll know I was wrong and he found what he had been missing all along and be ready to move on and let the house go and find something smaller and more affordable for myself and the girls.


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## karole

Your husband is most likely agreeable to your MIL moving in because he will have someone to keep an eye on you and and report to him your day-to-day activities. Are you okay with that?


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## so_conflicted

I understand your comment completely. I honestly think she will be beyond disappointed in him and do everything in her power to support me and the girls. She is not the type to report to him, especially after what he's done. She could change, but I have no concerns about her doing that at all. She is a very moral person and I think would do anything in her power to try to help us R


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## Racer

so_conflicted said:


> She is a very moral person and I think would do anything in her power to try to help us R


Which is the problem. If he leaves, you need to be distancing and moving on with your life. Having someone there giving you 'looks' and questions you when you begin to make choices that are in your best interest without regard to your stbxh (her son) is going to undermine you. Think of it this way; How far would you go to protect your own child's interest versus what others want? 

I see it as inviting yourself into a limbo... While he will be out dating and enjoying his single life knowing his mother isn't going to put up with you doing the same without saying a word or passing a negative judgment.


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## Acabado

Sorry but I think you should take a more hard stance and start the divorce procedings ASAP. He needs to understand he's burning the bridge forever and this should be your same mindset.
In the same line, I undertstand the financial dificulties but I believe having MIL at home is a bad idea. You need to move on with your life. As a matter of fact you need to plan a way of not being financialy dependent on him mid/long term.


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## so_conflicted

Racer,
you have a very valid point it might make moving on harder when I am basically waiting for him to come to his senses keep the status quo all the while knowing in my heart he is free and taking full advantage of that. I have no interest in moving on anytime soon with another person, I am too broken and I know it's not in the best interest of my kids, not would I even know where to start! I work with all women and in a school where the vast majority of parents are married. Anyway, I don't even have the slightest interest in that but it would kill me to wait while he is free sowing his wild oats so to speak...that's a big pill to swallow. Gosh, never really considered that when thinking about R that I would have to not only forgive the affair but anything that happened while we were living apart. Wow, that thought just caused an instant knot in my gut and tears in my eyes. I HATE this! Just lost hope for a future all over again


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## sandc

If you let your MIL move in, your H knows he will always have a way back to you. He needs to realize what he's losing. If he screws this up now, you are gone forever. Right now he knows he can have you back in an instant. Which, he can, right? He'll go make tender love to her, tell her how much he loves her, how they are soul-mates, and you'll take him right back.

Right?


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## so_conflicted

I'm going to list the car myself and once I have the cash hire the attorney that I spoke with yesterday and file. Maybe if I get that ball rolling, he'll see that I'm not waiting for him anymore and that will clear the fog before he ever gets out on his own to ruin our chances for R even more.
Maybe the actual serving of papers will have some profound effect on him? Make what he's giving up absolutely real.


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## LongWalk

Acabado said:


> Sorry but I think you should take a more hard stance and start the divorce procedings ASAP. He needs to understand he's burning the bridge forever and this should be your same mindset.
> In the same line, I undertstand the financial dificulties but I believe having MIL at home is a bad idea. You need to move on with your life. As a matter of fact you need to plan a way of not being financialy dependent on him mid/long term.


:iagree: Pushing for D in conjunction with 180 will bring everything forward faster. Being forced to sell his car is a good reminder.

If he is inviting you to accompany him to the company event, go. The fact that he is cheating on you with a colleague will create considerable dissonance and force him to rethink his situation.

Having your MIL replace him is wrong. From a psychological point of view he is taking his responsibilities as a mate and passing them to his mother. It might be a good strategy for wild animals to preserve their DNA, but for the sake of civilization (your M) it is not good. Having his mother there might assuage his conscience but it will also weaken the bond that you have. After all, you don't want to have ask his mother to leave so that he can return. What mess.


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## so_conflicted

Ok,so far everyone that has chimed in agrees that the MIL is a bad idea. Even my youngest who is the one most upset about moving said that maybe she shouldn't move in with us. So sad to let go of the only home our family has even lived in. It is the concrete, physical representation of what we were as a family for all these years.
Longwalk:
No I wasn't invited. Spouses never really are since it's company sponsored. I know the events are real I seen the whole email thread every time they have one. But, like I said before it doesn't mean that he stays at the company event the whole time or even goes at all...could just be the perfect excuse to get a night out with her elsewhere. He usually has vivid details about the events, but then again, he's now shown me that he is capable of being a pretty convincing liar.


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## alte Dame

Keep your eyes on the prize, which is you and your kids' welfare:

- No to MIL moving in - this only gives him comfortable knowledge that his domestic front is being taken care of and that you stay domestic, i.e., that when he leaves you are the mother not the newly freed and available, attractive, sexy option for another man.

- Keep up the 180 in a VERY serious way. This gives you strength for yourself no matter what and makes you very attractive not just to him, but to any other man.

- Get your ducks in line for D. Show him that you are not waffling on this, not begging, not hoping - even if you are desperately hoping, no showing him that.

- Remember always that he is with a 23-yo OW. The chances of this backfiring on him are huge.

- Remember that he is dredging up very old news to justify his A. Do your best not to accept this. Try not to go along with the excuses. If he hadn't met her, dollars to donuts he wouldn't want to leave you.


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## so_conflicted

alte Dame,

Everything you're saying makes so much sense. 

I think as hard as it will be to sell the family home it's what has to be done.

The 180 actually does make me feel a little better, empowered (as much as possible right now anyway) in a small way

I want to scare him back to reality by filing D, but you hit the nail on the head, I AM desperately hoping he'll change his mind and do anything to win us back. He used to be such an amazing man...Why is it that I can only remember the good times and he can only remember the bad? I just don't want him to get D papers and think "Yea, that was easy! See, we all wanted the same thing. I didn't ruin my M or my family, she wanted it too. She's even the one that filed!"

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that the 23 year old won't last for long, is she gonna take her forty year old boyfriend clubbing with her? Gross

I know that we had minor problems, but you're right they never were enough to even seek counseling over until OW came along. Now suddenly M isn't worth saving? BS

I'm going to lit the car this afternoon. Not sure if I should send the calls to his cell or mine? I honestly don't know much about the car and sending the calls to his phone will definitely catch him by surprise!
Can't hire the attorney until that car sells though, don't have the $ for his retainer. Good news is, if the D is agreeable/uncontested as far as term of custody, child support and maintenance there won't be any additional attny fees beyond the retainer! One positive thing about H is he hates confrontation and seems to just want this to be over.


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## alte Dame

He is rewriting your marital history to justify his A. I know this hurts, but please try to remember this.

He has now in his mind jumped the remaining hurdles to get to the OW. He has forced you to agree to a separation that allows him to cheat. It's out in the open with the kids. He's happy! He has permission!

Now you give yourself permission to take the steps you need to take. Keep talking to us and keep doing the 180. If you can do it, you will get stronger and more in control as each day passes. Control. That's the key. Take the control of your life out of his hands.


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## sandc

I believe the standard advice in this situation is pack his stuff in garbage bags and have it sent to OW's house. Or just leave it on the front lawn. If she is his decision, then to her he goes.


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## mg2977

File for D asap! 

I know you are worried about your H being glad you filed for D etc., and even if this is his initial reaction, it does not mean it won't hit him sometime. The day I told my H that I knew the D papers were all he wanted for Christmas (served him mid-December) and that I wanted this embarrassment of a marriage over, his face just dropped. Granted my H did not end his A then (nor do I believe he has ended it now), but I know those words got to him b/c every time I say "I want this embarrassment of a marriage over", he gets upset (or at least acts upset). 

Oh and by you filing for D shows you are in control and he is not going to dictate the terms of this anymore. Why wait for him to divorce you that gives him the power over the situation and I think will be even more crushing to you. Oh and I cried all the way home after filing my D papers, but I knew I had no choice. 

So stay strong, show him you are not Plan B and you are moving on. Remember the quickest way to get him back (if at all) is to let him go. I even told my H go to her bc far be it from me to stand in the way of true love and if they were soul mates and love conquered all , then enjoy! Mind you I would say this stuff in a strong way and then be so upset later but he was never going to see me cry. 

And the 23 year old will tire of him real soon! 

Stay strong. You will get through this one way or another, we all will.


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## so_conflicted

Anyone here in Colorado with recommendations for an attorney? Also anyone with experience with spousal maintenance in Colorado? H makes 80% of the income, so we are very out of balance and in order to survive financially I would need maintenance on top of child support.
Is there a calculation for that and how long does it typically last?


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## mg2977

so conflicted,

I am not in Colorado, but my STBXH makes 75% of the income so I am in a similar circumstance and could petition the court for temporary alimony/maintenance(I do not have children so no child support) while the D was pending. 

Then we could either settled out of court on an agreed upon amount of maintenance and for how long I can receive it and then the D will be final. 

However I have not had to do that yet, as my H has been very generous and has not given me any issues in regards to what I need to pay household bills. At first he was playing games with money, but has since stopped and it has made things less anxious for the time being. 

You could call the local bar association or ask around from family and friends if they have any recommendations for D attorneys.

Good luck


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## LongWalk

re: his vasectomy
It is not certain that he will be pleased that he cannot have children with her. She may not be anxious to have children now but in future she may want them. One chance he has to bind her closer is to impregnate her but reverse vasectomies are probably not cheap and his insurance may not cover that elective procedure.


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## highwood

so_conflicted said:


> alte Dame,
> 
> Everything you're saying makes so much sense.
> 
> I think as hard as it will be to sell the family home it's what has to be done.
> 
> The 180 actually does make me feel a little better, empowered (as much as possible right now anyway) in a small way
> 
> I want to scare him back to reality by filing D, but you hit the nail on the head, I AM desperately hoping he'll change his mind and do anything to win us back. He used to be such an amazing man...Why is it that I can only remember the good times and he can only remember the bad? I just don't want him to get D papers and think "Yea, that was easy! See, we all wanted the same thing. I didn't ruin my M or my family, she wanted it too. She's even the one that filed!"
> 
> Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that the 23 year old won't last for long, is she gonna take her forty year old boyfriend clubbing with her? Gross
> 
> I know that we had minor problems, but you're right they never were enough to even seek counseling over until OW came along. Now suddenly M isn't worth saving? BS
> 
> I'm going to lit the car this afternoon. Not sure if I should send the calls to his cell or mine? I honestly don't know much about the car and sending the calls to his phone will definitely catch him by surprise!
> Can't hire the attorney until that car sells though, don't have the $ for his retainer. Good news is, if the D is agreeable/uncontested as far as term of custody, child support and maintenance there won't be any additional attny fees beyond the retainer! One positive thing about H is he hates confrontation and seems to just want this to be over.


YOur comment about why it is you remember the good times and he the bad..really hit home with me...that is what happened when H was in his affair fog....I would bring up all the good things we did as a family and he would always be yeah but...and then say something negative. 

I truly think that is because of the fog and the fact that they are trying to justify what they are doing by cheating.

I suspect that everyone who goes thru this experiences that...

All I can say is you are doing good...stay strong!


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## alte Dame

Colorado Divorce FAQs | divorcenet.com


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## so_conflicted

I would actually be more surprised if he had another child than I was he he admitted he had A. He is so into this freedom thing and constantly mentions how he is so glad our kids are bigger and how exhausting kids and babies are (when we babysit my nephew)
I am not at all concerned about that possibility. This A would have to actually turn out to be his soul mate/love of a lifetime for him to even give it the slightest consideration. 
I really think this is all based on the excitement of the secrecy and that she's young and "forbidden" because he's married etc. I honestly don't think either one has much to offer the other outside of a good f*#K. 
How can I still love him so much after what he's done to me and our girls? I really wish I could hate him. I would make what I have to do so much easier.


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## BK23

trust me. Give it time and the hate will come in abundance.


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## daggeredheart

He's 40 and she's 23....oh stick a pin in this...it's going to be done real quick. 


She's practically a kid herself......there is no way she would have given him the time of day outside of the joint career choice..... you won't have to hold your breath too long but these "family dinners" need to end because it's giving him the best of both worlds. 

It's harsh but you live like he is dead....if he's dead he can't come to dinner, shopping, text you w smiles....etc ...... you can't help him "ease" into this new life. You throw it at him hard like a jug of ice water on the head.....welcome to reality party animal....


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## sandc

daggeredheart said:


> He's 40 and she's 23....oh stick a pin in this...it's going to be done real quick.
> 
> 
> She's practically a kid herself......there is no way she would have given him the time of day outside of the joint career choice..... you won't have to hold your breath too long but these "family dinners" need to end because it's giving him the best of both worlds.
> 
> It's harsh but you live like he is dead....if he's dead he can't come to dinner, shopping, text you w smiles....etc ...... you can't help him "ease" into this new life. You throw it at him hard like a jug of ice water on the head.....welcome to reality party animal....


I'm sorry I can only 'like' this once. :smthumbup:


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## carmen ohio

so_conflicted said:


> Anyone here in Colorado with recommendations for an attorney? Also anyone with experience with spousal maintenance in Colorado? H makes 80% of the income, so we are very out of balance and in order to survive financially I would need maintenance on top of child support.
> Is there a calculation for that and how long does it typically last?


so_conflicted,

Definitely get a good divorce attorney to advise you -- the sooner the better -- and then let him know what he is in for in terms of child support, alimony and property division. That should give him something to think about.

Do a Google search: "matrimonial attorneys colordo"

The tougher you make it for him now (always with a warm smile on your face, of course), the greater the chance that he will snap out of his fantasy.

Be strong for you kids.


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## so_conflicted

Thank you. You're right, I am still numb and in denial. 
I have contacted another D attorney and will consult w/ her tomorrow. I like the idea of letting him know what I learned and what that means for him. It's funny, my brother has been in a terrible custody battle for years and H always says "I told him, it's cheaper to keep her" meaning that my brother should have just stayed with his Ex rather than go through the hundreds of thousands of dollars on attorneys fees. Yet somehow, I don't think that H has stopped to think that "being out on his own" is going to mean a big financial hit for him. I know he's done the child support calculation (which isn't much $) but I have a strong suspicion that he is completely overlooking maintenance due to the huge discrepancy in our incomes. That part could really hurt. Even with child support, there is no way I can support my kids without moving them to a low income neighborhood and even that would be a stretch to make ends meet. My salary and the child support combines would equal exactly half of his net pay. Yet I would have myself and two kids to support, while he only has himself...can't imagine that's gonna fly with the courts. Kids come first, at least that's what I'm hoping


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## karole

After you talk with the attorney, don't sugarcoat anything to your husband. He probably is thinking to himself that you wouldn't go after alimony. You let him know you will be asking for everything the court allows. Your husband needs to realize (as I've read on this board many times) that his new life will not be all unicorns and rainbows


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## daggeredheart

When your done getting your battle plan together and taking care of all the legal sides of this horrible experience he has caused you, you need to emotionally prepare for the roller coaster of when he wants to come back because it's going to happen and probably sooner than you expect. 

This stage is like being a long tailed cat in a room full of rockers. The next stage is "crazy time". 



Not to get too far ahead but that's when the real drama lies.


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## LongWalk

re: the smirk
He probably didn't mean to smirk. He was telling his daughters something terrible and want to make it lighter. He might even has wished that he could tell them that he was happy with the 23-year-old the result was smirk. That may be part of the reason he came apologizing to them.

Just sell the car. Get the lawyer and 180. You think you want him back but in a few months time, you may not be able to stand the sight of him.


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## just got it 55

daggeredheart said:


> He's 40 and she's 23....oh stick a pin in this...it's going to be done real quick.
> 
> 
> She's practically a kid herself......there is no way she would have given him the time of day outside of the joint career choice..... you won't have to hold your breath too long but these "family dinners" need to end because it's giving him the best of both worlds.
> 
> It's harsh but you live like he is dead....if he's dead he can't come to dinner, shopping, text you w smiles....etc ...... you can't help him "ease" into this new life. You throw it at him hard like a jug of ice water on the head.....welcome to reality party animal....


 Can he handle a 23 year old child with high maintenance ? I bet plenty she is very high That will ware out and old quick they can’t FVCK 24/7

Hang in there you will be in control soon just listen to the advice here


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## LongWalk

Yes, ice water. Dinner is ok. Let him make it and do the dishes. Be civil at dinner but introduce distance. Let him feel that you are moving away emotionally. No hugs or kisses. Maybe you can shake his hand firmly and say goodbye as if it were some sort business going down the drain
_Posted via Mobile Device_

He still lacks insight. You respect his surrender to biological imperative. How would it feel for him if you had 18 year old guys. He has not considered that.


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## so_conflicted

Check In....

I had to take a little time away to get my head together. Here's an update on things since my last post. I'll try to make it short...

Exposed H to his mother, he flipped out and walked out, on the night of our daughters confirmation. He packed his things while we were at the ceremony and drove off only to start sobbing and speed back to the church to catch the tail end of things and join us at the reception. 
The next morning h was online looking for jobs and we talked a lot over the weekend about trying to work things out. Monday he verbal told OW NC and said she was agreeable. I also told him I needed all passwords accounts etc. he agreed. Tuesday he called me at work saying that he doesn't want to switch jobs, and really only felt sad on Friday about losing the kids and that was the primary reason he wanted to R. He said he realizes that he should want to R with me not to stay with the kids and that he wanted out. When he came home I told him he needed to pack up. He was shocked and cried a little and accused me of keeping the kids from him. I told him that wasn't the case and that he needed to leave to work in the morning and not come back unless we scheduled a time for him to pick up more of his things. I made it clear that he can't be a single man by day and family man by night. He thought he'd be a cake eater until we paid all our bills off! coming home every night and playing family while still being her friend at work and me acting like nothing ever happened and not checking up on him ever.
He cried a lot thins morning, which was reassuring to me that he still has a little bit of a heart even if it was only about having less time with the kids. Then later today I got a call from our cell carrier that he was trying to remove his line from the family plan and start his own plan. Since I'm the account holder they needed my permission. I guess he's over it and making arrangements to be on his own.
I am still heartbroken but I realize that he will never realize what he's giving up until he's on his own and can see first hand that being on his own is the utopia he's imagined it to be.
He's going to his mom's for now, and she came by last night to let me know that she was going to try to talk sense into him while he's with her. I don't really think she should be involved, but I can't really stop her from talking to her son.


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## maincourse99

_I am still heartbroken but I realize that he will never realize what he's giving up until he's on his own and can see first hand that being on his own is the utopia he's imagined it to be.
_

I think you meant NOT the Utopia. You're handling this the right way IMO. You have to let him go, he might come to his senses, or not. 

But either way, you can begin the healing process. I wish you the best.


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## so_conflicted

Yes, you are correct! I meant NOT the utopia he imagined.

I just felt that even though if felt good in a sick sort of way to have him home and pretend everything was normal...it was just postponing the healing process for myself and the kids. Also, he would never ever feel true remorse or come to his senses if he was able to have the best of both worlds. He still may not come to his senses or it might be too late if he ever does but at least we now have the chance to move forward and start caring for ourselves (me and the girls) and finding our strength rather than wallowing in the weakness of clinging to someone who doesn't want me


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## BK23

so_conflicted said:


> Yes, you are correct! I meant NOT the utopia he imagined.
> 
> I just felt that even though if felt good in a sick sort of way to have him home and pretend everything was normal...it was just postponing the healing process for myself and the kids. Also, he would never ever feel true remorse or come to his senses if he was able to have the best of both worlds. He still may not come to his senses or it might be too late if he ever does but at least we now have the chance to move forward and start caring for ourselves (me and the girls) and finding our strength rather than wallowing in the weakness of clinging to someone who doesn't want me


This is still very early, but I think you are handling things perfectly. By the time he comes crawling back--this may or may not happen, but I suspect it will--you may no longer have any interest in his return.


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## MattMatt

Sometimes people choke on their cake. 

There's a special manoeuvre you can try when you see a cake eater choking. It us the run away manoeuvre! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## so_conflicted

Well, he is a cake eater no more. I feel a bit of relief just in taking the power from him by me making the decision for him to get out. Thankfully my girls are old enough to understand and support my decision. My 14 yr old said "I think you did the right thing. He shouldn't be here, he wasn't a good husband to you because of what he did. You deserve someone who is going to love you as hard as you love him" "he'll still be our dad, he's good at that, but he doesn't deserve you, he was spoiled and couldn't even see it."
Kind of scary when your child can see things more clearly than you can. So lucky to have such an amazing daughter. Time to focus on the positive things in my life and stop giving energy to the negative. Time for things to be all about me and my girls....wasted too much energy on him


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## sandc

You done good. Now sit back and wait until he begs to come home. I don't give it long.


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## Busy Accountant

Bravo Conflicted!

I am so impressed with how far you have come in a very short time. You are sounding stronger with each post you make. Decisive.

I love the affirmation you are getting from your daughter. I'm sure that was way more powerful than anything any of us could have said!

Keep it up and keep in touch for encouragement!


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## LongWalk

By the time he finishes screwing things up, you probably won't want him anymore. He will have pissed on your respect for him too long. R will be miserable.


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## alte Dame

You're very strong for having made this decision. I admire this strength and hope you will maintain your position. I think most people on this thread have felt that the 23-yo gf fantasy is just that, a fantasy. Who knows, though? He will have to play it out to its natural end. You, on the other hand, have to start living your life for yourself and your kids. Forward focus, as they say. There will be many ups and downs, I'm sure. Keep checking in here if you can - we're all here to offer support.


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## so_conflicted

H says that OW and him are only friends at this point and I believe him, but who knows how long that will hold true. 
Now that he is out I guess I shouldn't care what he does but I really hope that all the pain and trouble this A has caused will have tainted any interest in rekindling the A with OW. Only time will tell I guess.
I feel pathetic but I still hope he will realize what he's giving up in me and will fight for me and do anything to win me back. I am working on letting go of that fantasy and come to the realization that things will never be the same between us but it's hard to let your dream of a life with someone just die.
I guess time will fix this too. I know I'm doing the right thing but it doesn't mean it feels good. I feel very alone and empty. Having a weak moment, obviously.


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## happyman64

SC

You are doing great. I know inside it does not feel like it but he has to make his choices.

As bad as they are.

And you have to hold him to his decisions otherwise he is still with you for all the wrong reasons.

Let his Mom talk to him.

She also knows her son is an idiot.

Stay strong. And do not let him eat his cake.

You deserve better and you will find better even if it does not include him.


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## LongWalk

so_conflicted said:


> H says that OW and him are only friends at this point and I believe him, but who knows how long that will hold true. It's hard to know how deep her emotional involvement is. If she is in love with him, then she will be hanging on for a while yet.
> Now that he is out I guess I shouldn't care what he does but I really hope that all the pain and trouble this A has caused will have tainted any interest in rekindling the A with OW. Only time will tell I guess. Before he used to stay in her "extra" bedroom, where is he now?
> I feel pathetic but I still hope he will realize what he's giving up in me and will fight for me and do anything to win me back. I am working on letting go of that fantasy and come to the realization that things will never be the same between us but it's hard to let your dream of a life with someone just die.
> I guess time will fix this too. *I know I'm doing the right thing but it doesn't mean it feels good.* Good for you I feel very alone and empty. Having a weak moment, obviously.


You have powerful means to bring him back, but back is no longer to what was before. So now he has to choose between a wife who no longer sees him in the same way and lover who probably doesn't see him in the same way either. I gather she must have some doubt about his character, since he has not loved enough to make a break.

He is the object of desire by two women, but the moment he settles on one, then he will lose some of his appeal. His real worth now depends on his core. He needs to define his sense of self worth on more than the two of you.

I imagine it as a conversation within him. He has to go beyond asking himself which woman do I want and which life to I want, to asking what sort of person am I and what should I do to respect myself.

If he gets back together with you just because he was a fish on a line who always wanted to escape but was spent and had no choice but to be lifted into the boat, then he will not have chosen you. And that will taint your life, unless he comes to understand that.

Would you want him to have sex with him now? Pity sex would, I guess repulse you?

Could he want you in way that would restore affection between you?

How long has it been since you felt that was making love to you with his whole being?

At any rate he must be out in the cold for a while.


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## Busy Accountant

Hi Conflicted

I'm sorry you had a bad night. Honestly, there's many more of those to come. Focus on those words of that wise 14 year old. You have just set an example of how your two daughters should be treated by future boyfriends and their husbands. They are learning from you.

As for OW, I am starting to think she is just a prop.  You have said that H said NC to her and "she is agreeable". Then he says that they are just friends, and you believe him. What happened to NC? You are on your own rollercoaster with H right now, I suggest you get off the one he's on with OW. It's nice of her to be "agreeable" to stop messing in you marriage. Now its time for you to take control of that situation. IMO, tell H you really don't want to hear about OW's status. Other than a true NC, and he's nowhere near that, his and OW's status (and whether she is "agreeable") is irrelevant to you. OW entered YOUR life uninvited, regardless of the fact that it was your H that brought her to you. Its time you get rid of her for good. Make the decision that she is out of her life. She is a nobody. The only decision is whether your H is going to be part of your life. You need to make that one simple fact clear to him. OW is out. Now, how about you?

Second, I wonder if this is about OW at all? Your H continues to exhibit very immature and controlling behavior. He wants to be a good dad, then storms out the night of your daughter's confirmation. He blames you for the drama he has caused. Conflicted, even if he turns his back on OW, I wonder if you should take him back in his current condition. This man needs to grow up. You need to heal. Then the two of you can look at each other and the life you started with a clear vision and see if you want to continue. Regardless of his status with OW, it seems to me that there were dynamics in your marriage that need to be addressed. During one of your stronger moments, reflect on whether you actually want to live the way you have been living. Think about it, if you could start all over again, would you even date this guy knowing what you know?

Take this time alone to reflect on how life should look. Now that a curtain has been pulled back on the marriage you had, it may not be as good as you thought. He may not be what you thought he was. He is the pathetic one, not you.


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## so_conflicted

First, I have to say that I am so grateful to all of you for your support and honest advice. 
Last night was H first night out of the house, he stayed at his mom's. He sent the girls a goodnight text saying that he loves them. That meant so much to them (and me, their well being is my priority) to know he was thinking of them.
I agree with everyone here that he has a lot of soul searching to do and figure out what kind of person he is and if he's ok with being that guy or if he wants to make changes within himself for himself. He seems very very lost right now and completely consumed with HIS wants and "needs"
I know life will never be the same either together or apart, but maybe that's a good thing as someone pointed out maybe the M wasn't as good as I thought it was.
H will come over tomorrow morning while the kids are in school to get the remainder of his things. It's also our younger daughter's birthday so she begged for us BOTH to take her to lunch. We agreed, so I will have to put on a happy face and pretend that H didn't cause me the greatest hurt I've ever known and try to choke down a bite or two.


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## Busy Accountant

Order the chicken noodle soup. There were some days that was all I could handle.


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## so_conflicted

talked to H yesterday after the cell carrier called asking if he could remove his line from my account. I asked him if we could take a week or so to cool down and get our heads together before we start dismantling our former life. He agreed and said that the cell phone was the only thing he was doing for now. Well today I dscover that he canceled our netflix account. I don't care at all about netflix, it the lying that bothers me so much! Why couldn't he have said he was (or already had) canceled that account. I makes me wonder what else he is lying about and why? Netflix is so insignificant, why lie about it? He knows I don't even care to watch movies more than once in a great while. 

Any insight as to why he continues to lie about stuff that there's no reason to lie about? This is just making me sick wondering what else he is up to on the sly!
I feel betrayed all over again


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## phillybeffandswiss

so_conflicted said:


> Any insight as to why he continues to lie about stuff that there's no reason to lie about? This is just making me sick wondering what else he is up to on the sly!
> I feel betrayed all over again


It is a habit like many other things. You keep it up, it becomes second nature. He's probably lied so much it is now his first instinct even when it is unnecessary.


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## Acabado

so_conflicted said:


> Any insight as to why he continues to lie about stuff that there's no reason to lie about? This is just making me sick wondering what else he is up to on the sly!
> I feel betrayed all over again


Passive agresive ways to control? It really doesn't matter anyway.

What really matter is he more than willing to keep lying to you. He's not trustworthy. So don't believe a single word from his mouth. Don't believe he won't go there if it suits him.

You see? He has this narrative in his head that you was controling him, being an obstacle to his happiness since ages. So he will take care of him and no one else from now on. Don't trust him.


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## so_conflicted

So I got through H coming over while the kids were at school to pack the majority of his things (he is staying with his mom so didn't take any furniture)
Then we had lunch with our daughter for her birthday and went to her field day. We were pleasant and it went well, considering. Later that day he sent me a text asking if our daughter won any more ribbons after he left field day...he left because it was raining and he wasn't prepared for freezing weather. I thought that was a lame reason for texting me...why didn't he just as her?

Then he sent me a text yesterday saying "Wasn't sure if I should or not...Figure I'll text you and you can just let me know. So anyway...Have a great Mother's day." I guess he's wondering if it's ok to wish me a happy mothers day? I just replied with "thanks"
Today he sent me another text but it was strictly about transporting the kids to school. I just replied with an "ok"
I feel like he is trying to keep one foot in the door with these texts so I am trying to limit contact without being a jerk. I see any point in being rude. 
I am still hoping he comes to his senses and comes crawling back begging me to give him another chance offering to do anything and everything to win me back. Haha I know that's not bound to happen yet or maybe never will. I just still find myself needing that reassurance that I am wanted/needed and that he realizes his mistake.
I feel a tiny bit stronger each day and more confident that the kids and I will be alright even if he never comes to his senses. Just can't wait for the weak moments to stop coming so regularly.
I still often wonder if he's seeing OW again. At the time I told him to get out he said they had cut off everything but friendship as of late February. I believe him (I know I know, he's an expert liar) but not that he's out what's to stop them from starting up again? Why do I still care? How do I stop caring what he's doing every minute of every day?


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## alte Dame

The 180 is hard at first, but it gets easier and can really help you:

The Healing Heart: The 180


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## so_conflicted

I am definitely doing 180, but now that he's out of the house I'm not sure that it's as obvious to him. Because of our children and various end of the school year events we will see each other several times over the next two weeks. I plan to do 180 in full force. I'm sure he will notice, I know he did when we were together for the birthday lunch/filed day but he didn't really seem to care. It's almost like he like it that way. Although, he did send me a needless text that evening....so maybe it did effect him?


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## alte Dame

Please continue the 180 JUST for you. It shouldn't have anything to do with how he will react. It's really for your own strength and healing. It helps you channel your thoughts in a healthier direction for your future so that, whatever happens, you will be stronger and more confident and more at peace with yourself.


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## LongWalk

So Con you are doing the right by 180. Keep going
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## so_conflicted

alte Dame:
That is a very good point! I do feel better when I am doing it and sometimes I even start to believe that I am going to be just fine and that his betrayal isn't killing me inside. It's actually a nice break from the thoughts that creep into my mind the rest of the time. Gotta get better at doing 180 even when he isn't around so that it becomes who I am and how I feel rather than an act.


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## so_conflicted

Update time!
Feeling hopeful today, although I don't really know why, but I'm grateful for the reprieve from the sadness and doubt! Last night was our daughters tennis banquet and he obsessed all day about what to wear (he called twice and text once) I had to take humor that his life has gotten so pathetic that something so minor is all he has to occupy his time. The banquet was ok. I did make a comment to him when our daughter ditched us to sit with her friends saying "Oh great" because I'd be stuck with him...
he text later that he it was awkward because of my comment. although once we were seated we found people to chat with and I had a great time. He however could not let go of my comment, sucks for him! He had always said during our marriage that I held grudges, but last night it dawned on me that he can't let things go. He had his entire night ruined over one comment. I had a great time once we started socializing with other people. I mentioned that he is actually the one who hangs on to things like in our M he let things brew, couldn't (or wouldn't) let them go and wouldn't bring them up until he was at his breaking point. Which is what got us here! He actually seemed to listen and find some truth in my revelation and say that he would start today with a clean slate (our other daughter has a music performance tonight) we'll just see if he's given it anymore thought since last night.
I'm just so glad to have the happiness that I am feeling today!
I am starting to realize that he isn't the good guy I believed he was. He's lost and is behaving like an irresponsible teenager, NOT attractive. I'm not even looking forward to seeing him tonight, which is the first time I've felt this way since he left.


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## so_conflicted

One more thing.....
On a less positive note. He has a "free consultation" with an attorney today. He said he just wants to know his rights and how the whole separation/divorce process works so he knows what to expect and what the steps are and what he is required to pay etc. I am a little worried that this attorney will try to talk him out of what we've agreed upon in an effort to gain a client. I guess I'll find out tonight.....


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## LongWalk

so_conflicted said:


> Update time!
> Feeling hopeful today, although I don't really know why, but I'm grateful for the reprieve from the sadness and doubt! Last night was our daughters tennis banquet and he obsessed all day about what to wear (he called twice and text once) I had to take humor that his life has gotten so pathetic that something so minor is all he has to occupy his time. The banquet was ok. I did make a comment to him when our daughter ditched us to sit with her friends saying "Oh great" because I'd be stuck with him...
> he text later that he it was awkward because of my comment. although once we were seated we found people to chat with and I had a great time. He however could not let go of my comment, sucks for him! He had always said during our marriage that I held grudges, but last night it dawned on me that he can't let things go. He had his entire night ruined over one comment. I had a great time once we started socializing with other people. I mentioned that he is actually the one who hangs on to things like in our M he let things brew, couldn't (or wouldn't) let them go and wouldn't bring them up until he was at his breaking point. Which is what got us here! He actually seemed to listen and find some truth in my revelation and say that he would start today with a clean slate (our other daughter has a music performance tonight) we'll just see if he's given it anymore thought since last night.
> *I'm just so glad to have the happiness that I am feeling today!
> I am starting to realize that he isn't the good guy I believed he was. He's lost and is behaving like an irresponsible teenager, NOT attractive. I'm not even looking forward to seeing him tonight, which is the first time I've felt this way since he left*.


After Dday he tried to keep eating the cake. Family and lover, he wanted it all. He was ready to trample you to keep doing it, but you stood up to him. It was the only way.

As a husband you may now write him off as total loss. Can he become a good exH. That remains to be seen.


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## Busy Accountant

"He however could not let go of my comment, sucks for him! He had always said during our marriage that I held grudges, but last night it dawned on me that he can't let things go."

Bravo Conflicted!

I hope tonight goes just as well.

Keep in touch.


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## so_conflicted

There might be an ever so slight break in the the fog that H is under. This weekend after a nice talk about how "I am not out to destroy him, because I am working to be a better person than that.." 
H called asking to talk. He wanted to know if the initial offer for him to stay with the same company (2,000+ employees) but transfer to another team in another building was still on the table from DD. I told him I really didn't know but I would entertain the thought if an opportunity came up.
At our daughters meet my family basically ignored him and he was miserable and my brother actually sent him a text while we were all together saying that he was disappointed and mad but that he wouldn't act on his feelings because he wouldn't risk his life by doing something to H.
Then last night at our daughter meet he said "I just want to propose an idea to you. DON'T answer now, think about it, sleep on it and let me know. Remember how when I was considering R I put my resume out and got several matches out of state?...Would you be willing to move and start over, clean slate, I'll give you all my passwords and we start fresh?"
I haven't yet answered him, but a couple of thought cam eot mind right off the bat:
1. moving would cause me to pay the price because I would also have to switch jobs
2. the kids would pay for his A by having to leave all their friends and switch schools
3. Is he proposing this because it would take something this drastic to get OW out of his system?
4. Does he want to move to not have to face the uphill battle of getting my family to also forgive him?


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## just got it 55

so_conflicted said:


> There might be an ever so slight break in the the fog that H is under. This weekend after a nice talk about how "I am not out to destroy him, because I am working to be a better person than that.."
> H called asking to talk. He wanted to know if the initial offer for him to stay with the same company (2,000+ employees) but transfer to another team in another building was still on the table from DD. I told him I really didn't know but I would entertain the thought if an opportunity came up.
> At our daughters meet my family basically ignored him and he was miserable and my brother actually sent him a text while we were all together saying that he was disappointed and mad but that he wouldn't act on his feelings because he wouldn't risk his life by doing something to H.
> Then last night at our daughter meet he said "I just want to propose an idea to you. DON'T answer now, think about it, sleep on it and let me know. Remember how when I was considering R I put my resume out and got several matches out of state?...Would you be willing to move and start over, clean slate, I'll give you all my passwords and we start fresh?"
> I haven't yet answered him, but a couple of thought cam eot mind right off the bat:
> 1. moving would cause me to pay the price because I would also have to switch jobs
> 2. the kids would pay for his A by having to leave all their friends and switch schools
> 3. Is he proposing this because it would take something this drastic to get OW out of his system?
> 4. Does he want to move to not have to face the uphill battle of getting my family to also forgive him?


Survey says ...................................................


All Four
Your Call


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## sandc

so_conflicted said:


> There might be an ever so slight break in the the fog that H is under. This weekend after a nice talk about how "I am not out to destroy him, because I am working to be a better person than that.."
> H called asking to talk. He wanted to know if the initial offer for him to stay with the same company (2,000+ employees) but transfer to another team in another building was still on the table from DD. I told him I really didn't know but I would entertain the thought if an opportunity came up.
> At our daughters meet my family basically ignored him and he was miserable and my brother actually sent him a text while we were all together saying that he was disappointed and mad but that he wouldn't act on his feelings because he wouldn't risk his life by doing something to H.
> Then last night at our daughter meet he said "I just want to propose an idea to you. DON'T answer now, think about it, sleep on it and let me know. Remember how when I was considering R I put my resume out and got several matches out of state?...Would you be willing to move and start over, clean slate, I'll give you all my passwords and we start fresh?"
> I haven't yet answered him, but a couple of thought cam eot mind right off the bat:
> 1. moving would cause me to pay the price because I would also have to switch jobs
> 2. the kids would pay for his A by having to leave all their friends and switch schools
> 3. Is he proposing this because it would take something this drastic to get OW out of his system?
> 4. Does he want to move to not have to face the uphill battle of getting my family to also forgive him?


If it were me I wouldn't move. He broke it, he can fix it. But he's got to want to. 

Keep doing the 180. It sounds like there is trouble in your H's paradise. Don't answer him until 
1. You've decided on all 4 points
2. He's begging and pleading for you to talk to him
3. You're damn good and ready to talk to him.

Your terms, hon. YOUR terms.


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## Busy Accountant

Some thoughts from afar.....

1. Your H had a lot of issues with your M. I question his motivation. Is this latest move because he loves YOU, or because he's getting tired of his mom?

2. Seems like a drastic move for the family. It really hasn't been that much time yet. Some folks have taken that bold of a step, but it sure seems like they gave it way more thought than he has.

3. The move would have to be part of a way bigger plan of rebuilding. What other plan does he have to rebuild your M other than "starting fresh"?

4. Is he just running away from his problem (s)? If so, I bet they follow you both to your new place.

Here's the tell tale sign. If you say no, or not now, or wait..will he pout or work on another solution? That will tell you how serious he is and how much he has grown. 

Its a step in the right direction..but a baby step. I just don't think its been enough time.


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## LongWalk

Sandc is right: you are in the driver's seat. Moving is a lot of trouble. If you want him back – and do you now? Do you want to be in the same bed with him? Do you want him touching you? – you give counter proposal.

1. No move (no running away)
2. He comes home, but there is no guarantee that R will succeed
3. You will go to MC
4. He will apologize for the affair, take full responsibility as precondition. He will answer any questions you have now and in the future.
5. He will apologize to your family, including the daughter who is old enough to understand the betrayal
6. He will work to gain back his self respect, he will learn to be partner in your marriage. When he feels you are controlling him he must assert himself in a positive fashion that lifts your relationship. He cannot be afraid of you or an underling in your marriage. He has to work to be someone that you admire.
7. On your side you will immediately restore intimacy and take joy in your sex life so that your marriage has a positive side for the both of you.
8. If things are working between you, you will lobby hard for his acceptance back into your family. If he is strong and good to you and your children, you will defend him with everything you have.
9. You will start your R with his apology. Following that you will declare that you love each other and are going make a real attempt at R

also, he has to forgive himself and you must forgive him, too, but where in the list that fits, I don't know.


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## so_conflicted

I have to respond to busy accountant:
I have the same concern...I am not convinced he wants to come back to ME. I think he wants his whole life back (the house, the kids, the routine) and I am a small part of that but I don't think being back with me is the driving force in his behavior. I agree that he needs more time. I need for him to fight for our marriage and our life together, right? Not just get the M back because he likes all the rest of the "life" I think moving is running away and I want to fix things not run from them. I'm pretty sure these type of problems don't stay behind. He has to want me. I feel like he isn't there yet because he's convinced himself I'm the bad guy and also if he were at that point (of wanting/needing me) he's definitely not at the point to make himself vulnerable and admit it for fear of being rejected after what he's done. 

I also agree that he needs counseling whether we try R or not but I will not even consider R without us at least going to MC. I refuse to relive this nightmare again and that could happen if we don't resolve the underlying issues in our M.

Good test, if he balks at my need for him to prove that he wants ME or at me not wanting to move across the country, he isn't ready to do the work. If he keeps trying and offering options maybe it's progress?


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## walkonmars

Yup - he's asking you to consider a major disruption to you (and your financial security - such as it is), your daughters' social life and educational progress, and your support system.... For What? 

An outside chance that he will "come around in due time"? IMO the risk is too great for such a weak prospect. 

Consider also that you will be far more dependent on him in a new place where you will know no-one but he will have his work support system. You will feel isolated if he doesn't actually and fully reconcile. 

Only you can decide if it's worth it to you. But in your shoes, I would discuss any potential move with the kids - they're old enough.


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## so_conflicted

I'm not giving him an answer until he asks for one. He can be the one to sit and ponder what I'm thinking for a change. 

I have no interest in moving. He hasn't proven to me that I can trust him or that our marriage is even close to strong enough to handle the stress of a major move. I think it's his attempt to seem gallant, look how far I'm willing to go to fix this, etc. when in reality we'd all be paying the price and it's just running away.
One daughter is open to moving, only because she is an adventure seeker, not to get the family back together. The older daughter won't even consider moving.
I'm staying put where I have family, friends and a job. I feel like I have so much on my plate emotionally I just don't have the energy to make a major move on top of everything else.
I'm just going to "test" him with my response to this proposal and see how he reacts. My guess is that he's not ready to do the work and will just throw his hands in the air (again)


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## alte Dame

I wouldn't jump on this at all, but it sounds like he's feeling some real heat, some real regret perhaps.

I would strategize if I were you. I would tell him that you will think about it - it's a big change after all. I wouldn't give him any conditions right away, just tell him you will give it some thought.

Then, I would continue the 180 as much as possible to regain your own strength and self-esteem. As you feel stronger, you'll be in a much better place to judge whether you'd be willing to move.

These are small steps, but I think he's starting to take them. You can't know whether it's about you as much as his entire life as he knows it, but time may tell you that.


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## LongWalk

You're taking the right approach
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Busy Accountant

Your thought process is correct Conflicted. 

Regret - Sadness over something that has happened or been done.

Remorse - Deep regret or guilt for a wrong committed.

He may be feeling some "regret" but remorse is different. The regret may be about the choices in his life. The remorse will be about you. Do you see any remorse?


Take a look back at this entire thread. See how far you have come.


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## LongWalk

You need to turn the spit a few more times wlhile fanning the coals
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## so_conflicted

I think he is on the right path, but not where I need him to be yet. 

He hasn't asked for an answer to the moving proposal, so I'm not sure if he's just going to wait for me to bring it up or if he's giving me more time or if he's had a change of heart, who knows? I definitely know that is not something I will do.

I don't think I've seen remorse. He has said he regrets "crossing the line" with OW and that he is sorry and that he will tell me sorry as many times as I need to hear it, but that's about it. I really still don't get the feeling that he's missing his wife or our love....I feel like he's missing the whole package which includes me but M should be only about him and I, right?

I need to talk to him about this weekend at some point. He asked to have the girls for a night or two. I'm a little nervous/anxious to see if he brings R up while we are making those arrangements.


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## LongWalk

Write him a simple mail to say.

"Moving is not a solution. Our old life no longer exists. What do you want in the future? What actions will help you reach your goals?"

Good father is a minimum that he should be striving for. Does he want you? That is the question you are asking yourself. He has put himself in the position that he has to woo you back and you know him well enough to know whether he is faking just so that he can be comfortable in his old life, which no longer exists, which is why he wants to run away.


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## so_conflicted

This roller coaster of emotions is killing me! I feel strong one moment and weak and needy the next! Right now I am really just wanting to talk to him or see him. Doing everything to not email or text him and ask for him to come by tonight to talk about the plans for this weekend and talk to him about his proposal to move. I keep telling myself that I have to be strong and not contact him but these weak moments SUCK! I hate when I feel needy, especially for someone who did this to me. But when I start to see a glimmer of hope for R I start to feel the love in my heart spring back to life. I know that not contacting him is part of 180 and the way to go to show him what he's missing, but when these moments hit, I feel like I'm the one missing out too. UGH! I just need to keep busy so I don't call or text him and let this mood pass.


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## sandc

That's why you have us. Text us instead.


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## so_conflicted

Thanks sandc! It is such a reassuring feeling to know I can just spill my feelings here in the safety of this group without consequences when all I want to do is run to him. He's been my rock for 15 years and I have to recognize that at least for the time being (maybe forever) he no longer holds that place in my life. 

It's hard acting in a way that is so opposite of what I'm actually feeling. I feel like such a fraud putting on an act for the person I am condemning for being dishonest and acting around me. I know they are completely different but I still feel like I am not being truthful to him or true to my heart. While I feel this way, I also KNOW with certainty that this is the right thing to do. As my handle states so conflicted


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## LongWalk

Your mind has reigned in your heart for good reason and you know it. If you see him, he may sense it in spite of your "hard" exterior.

Do you usually wear perfume? The next time you meet, wear a little scent to complement your severe look. Might agitate his soul a little.


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## alte Dame

I think when the WS walks out, we can become so desperate to have things be 'alright' again, that we forget about the infidelity.

He may have been your rock for many years, but he chose to be that for another woman in the last year. Try to remember that in the final analysis, you have to be your own rock. It's hard, I know, but you can't control him. You can only control yourself.


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## so_conflicted

Longwalk, I love the idea of perfume! Except I don't usually wear it, only a few times a year. So wearing it could either A) make him think I did it for him or B) make him very very curious.

Had a breakdown at Kaiser yesterday while getting my blood drawn to test for STD's and HIV thanks to this awful A. I was so totally embarrassed but the tech was so nice. I apologized for bursting into tears and told him why I was having these awful tests and he said "I'm so sorry, but you're very pretty and you'll find someone who will treat you right." What a nice guy, restores my faith that there are decent men out there.

Well, I've almost made it through my day without contacting him, YEA! Once I'm off work and being Mommy I'm too busy to really think about him too much. Besides there are much better things to distract me once I'm home with my girls. Thanks for all the help!


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## BK23

so_conflicted said:


> Longwalk, I love the idea of perfume! Except I don't usually wear it, only a few times a year. So wearing it could either A) make him think I did it for him or B) make him very very curious.
> 
> Had a breakdown at Kaiser yesterday while getting my blood drawn to test for STD's and HIV thanks to this awful A. I was so totally embarrassed but the tech was so nice. I apologized for bursting into tears and told him why I was having these awful tests and he said "I'm so sorry, but you're very pretty and you'll find someone who will treat you right." What a nice guy, restores my faith that there are decent men out there.
> 
> Well, I've almost made it through my day without contacting him, YEA! Once I'm off work and being Mommy I'm too busy to really think about him too much. Besides there are much better things to distract me once I'm home with my girls. Thanks for all the help!


Hang in there! You're doing better than most would given these crappy circumstances.


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## daggeredheart

I think everyone can relate to that need....wanting to reach out and communicate with the WS as a means to self soothe. Much is made about the addiction of affairs but that goes for spouses as well. We had routines, habits, lives entwined and its hard to go cold turkey.

You are doing great even when it feels like you are falling apart.


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## LongWalk

so_conflicted said:


> Longwalk, I love the idea of perfume! Except I don't usually wear it, only a few times a year. So wearing it could either A) make him think I did it for him or B) make him very very curious.
> 
> Had a breakdown at Kaiser yesterday while getting my blood drawn to test for STD's and HIV thanks to this awful A. HIV is not highly contagious so I wouldn't worry about it.I was so totally embarrassed but the tech was so nice. I apologized for bursting into tears and told him why I was having these awful tests and he said "I'm so sorry, but you're very pretty and you'll find someone who will treat you right." What a nice guy, restores my faith that there are decent men out there.Sounds like it wasn't the first time he had to comfort someone; the fact that you were attractive made it easier for him, haha.
> 
> Men aren't all decent. I am one, I ought to know, but we have a desire to be good as well. Keep to your 180 and he may realize he wasn't trying hard enough.
> 
> Well, I've almost made it through my day without contacting him, YEA! Once I'm off work and being Mommy I'm too busy to really think about him too much. Besides there are much better things to distract me once I'm home with my girls. Thanks for all the help!


Rooting for you.

Random musing: Today I had lunch with buddy hadn't seen him for many months but I heard his wife many years had left him. She moved all the furniture out this morning. One son was refusing to go her new place. The eldest boy, 16, has begun smoking dope.

The guy had lost a lot of weight. He was completely frazzled. His wife, they are both writers, became religious and made great money with books about her faith, surpassing him in earnings. She inherited oodles of money some years ago. Her dissatisfaction just grew and grew – guess it's a Christian virtue – so I imagine his marriage has been sex free for at least a few years.

All he can can think about in his new single dad loneliness is having sex. So, we are shallow in the way we seek affirmation. Anyway, he is in far worse shape than you are. Worse than your husband, too.

re: perfume
Just put enough on to cause the fine hairs of his subconscious to prickle. If he has really broken of the A, he may fall in love with you again. The more aloof you are, the more likely it is to happen.


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## so_conflicted

longwalk,

I am glad to hear that I am doing better than some, but I feel terrible for your friend. I definitely have my moments where I feel the way I imagine he does. I also have lost weight to the point where family is commenting because I was already average/thin to begin with. The weight will come back in time, I consider that the least of my worries.
I am being weary from the effort it takes daily to clear my mind of thoughts of him and my future (will it be with him or not?) and what he's done and the financial impact of all of this blah blah blah......
I just need a vacation from my brain!
A friend suggested journaling to get the thoughts out of my head temporarily. I need to give it a try.
I feel my motivation for wanting to R changing as time passes. It started strictly as a need for his love and for his companionship. Now I feel it changing to being more of a need for financial security, as terrible as that sounds. He has a very good income and mine is weak, at best. I know if we R our kids will not have to take on significant debt for college and we will be very comfortable once we get this debt under control, which will happen quickly with our incomes combined living under one roof. I feel bad for thinking this way, but I guess this is the place for me to bare my true feelings. Don't get me wrong, I still want him to love me and want to spend his life with me without a doubt but I realize that is a want and financial security is a need. I realize that he will have to pay spousal maint and child support but I am 39 and those funds are short lived in the grand scheme of things.


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## LongWalk

I understand how you feel. There are some marriages in which one or both of the spouses feel indifference, loathing or contempt, rather than love or hate. Sometimes there is a weird mixture that is changing. But it is possible to give your heart to the other. And it literally feels that way, it's feeling from the chest. There is a kind of surrender.

There was one poster on TAM who got word that his ex was dying of cancer. He had not seen her for 5 or 6 years, but he cancelled a date with a new woman, explaining that he was going to say goodbye, and travelled to the hospital.

"Who are you?" asked the nurse, and then let him in when explained.

She was unconscious. Held her hand and spoke to her. He thought that he felt a slight squeeze of her hand and the gathering of some tears. He wanted very much to believe that she had heard him.

So, for sure you and your husband both know that you could both surrender your hearts to each other again. There might be real joy in it. Or it might all go sour again in a day, or a week or a year. The problem for you now is that for a while you were the one who ached more for the surrender. Now perhaps power has shifted and he is the more needy one.

But this tugging back and forth deadens love because as you observe it is the consequences of divorce that are bothering you both. He was shocked that people, notably his own daughter, would turn against him. He felt social pressure; you feel economic. Neither are directly the language of love.

His desire to start somewhere new is all about social stigma. He is being cowardly. Your calculations are practical instead of romantic. It is not prostitution but it grimy to think your sex appeal peaked sometime ago and you cannot easily find a better man to replace him. It is brave of you to admit it. But it makes you feel worse than when you loved him despite his betrayal.

But your 180 is heightening everything for you both emotionally, so I can imagine a reconciliation that could restore your love is still possible, but as time goes by on, the hope of R based on love must become fainter. It sucks.

This if of course why I thought of perfume and why you found it almost worth doing.


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## Busy Accountant

Hey Conflicted

I wrote a letter, never to be sent to one of the OW's. I said it all. It helped a lot because everytime I started ruminating about her, I would just look back at the letter. It was all there. That way, I could take it back out of my mind and decide to think about it at a better time. Sometimes, at the end of my workday I would just read it aloud with noone else around. 

However you do it, writing, I think, helps. It forces you to organize your thoughts rather than having them just swirl around your head at will.

Now, on one of your finanicial concerns...your daughters' college. Have you talked to your attorney about this? Years ago, before any of our problems, my H and I set money aside in a state program for tuition. The ownership is technically in our kids' names rather than ours. Funny thing, at the time, I thought to myself, if anything happens between us, our kids will at least be able to go to school. Anyway, you may be able to fund something now that grows as they age. Hopefully your attorney can give you suggestions.


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## so_conflicted

Had to call H tonight to make sure he was alright with me having my brother show the car we are selling. I just assumed it would be fine but now with the heat between them, I felt like I needed to be sure it was alright just to cover myself. He was fine with it. Easy pleasant conversation about the car, the kids spending time with him this weekend and him driving the youngest to school tomorrow, all business. At the end I said "ok, so that's it, unless you have anything else to cover?" He just said "nope, cant think of anything"

I am SOOOO confused, not that it's a new feeling these days, but what about his proposal to move our family across the country?!?! Did he forget he asked me to think about that? Did he change his mind? Was he afraid to ask? Did he know my answer?(based on knowing me so well for so long) WTF?


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## so_conflicted

LongWalk said:


> I understand how you feel. There are some marriages in which one or both of the spouses feel indifference, loathing or contempt, rather than love or hate. Sometimes there is a weird mixture that is changing. But it is possible to give your heart to the other. And it literally feels that way, it's feeling from the chest. There is a kind of surrender.
> 
> There was one poster on TAM who got word that his ex was dying of cancer. He had not seen her for 5 or 6 years, but he cancelled a date with a new woman, explaining that he was going to say goodbye, and travelled to the hospital.
> 
> "Who are you?" asked the nurse, and then let him in when explained.
> 
> She was unconscious. Held her hand and spoke to her. He thought that he felt a slight squeeze of her hand and the gathering of some tears. He wanted very much to believe that she had heard him.
> 
> So, for sure you and your husband both know that you could both surrender your hearts to each other again. There might be real joy in it. Or it might all go sour again in a day, or a week or a year. The problem for you now is that for a while you were the one who ached more for the surrender. Now perhaps power has shifted and he is the more needy one.I thought that might be happening but after tonight convo I got the feeling that he was doing just fine without me. Is he giving me the 180 right back? Is he really ok without me? Was he just acting like he was ok?
> 
> But this tugging back and forth deadens love because as you observe it is the consequences of divorce that are bothering you both. He was shocked that people, notably his own daughter, would turn against him. He felt social pressure; you feel economic. Neither are directly the language of love.
> 
> His desire to start somewhere new is all about social stigma. He is being cowardly. Your calculations are practical instead of romantic. It is not prostitution but it grimy to think your sex appeal peaked sometime ago and you cannot easily find a better man to replace him. It is brave of you to admit it. But it makes you feel worse than when you loved him despite his betrayal.
> 
> But your 180 is heightening everything for you both emotionally, so I can imagine a reconciliation that could restore your love is still possible, but as time goes by on, the hope of R based on love must become fainter. It sucks. I am getting really anxious to just know what my path is and get on with it! If we're over for good I just need to know it but something keeps pulling at me telling me not to be so hasty, ugh!
> 
> This if of course why I thought of perfume and why you found it almost worth doing.


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## so_conflicted

Busy Accountant said:


> Hey Conflicted
> 
> 
> However you do it, writing, I think, helps. It forces you to organize your thoughts rather than having them just swirl around your head at will. I am going to start a journal tonight. Might let my mind take some time off, if I know I can always come back to those thoughts once they're saved in writing
> 
> Now, on one of your finanicial concerns...your daughters' college. Have you talked to your attorney about this? Years ago, before any of our problems, my H and I set money aside in a state program for tuition. The ownership is technically in our kids' names rather than ours. Funny thing, at the time, I thought to myself, if anything happens between us, our kids will at least be able to go to school. Anyway, you may be able to fund something now that grows as they age. Hopefully your attorney can give you suggestions.


 I will have to address this with an attorney. unfortunately we weren't good planners and didn't set aside funds for our kids education early on, guess it was one of those things we always thought we'd do "tomorrow"


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## LongWalk

If you went to MC, could you be more open yet preserve your 180? You can ask your H to go to MC even for divorce. I mean don't MC's try to keep divorce discussions civil?

If you are doing a 180 but you feel weak about it, do you think it shows to him?


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## so_conflicted

I 180 has him totally confused. I think he is suspicious as to why I'm not fuming mad and wanting to destroy him and why I seem so at peace with everything that's happening.
I just explain it to him when he questions my niceness as I am growing into a better person who doesn't waste energy on vengeance. I want to be proud of my actions and the way I handle pain and betrayal. I want to use this experience to set a good example for my girls. He has said (last weekend) "Part of me is sitting here thinking that I'd like to be part of this new family" 

I think he doesn't trust that my behavior is real (vs and act) and that as soon as he lets his guard down or says he wants to R I am going to morph into this raging lunatic. I think he's actually waiting to see if this "new me" sticks because it is so different from the me he has known all these years. I don't think he sees me as doing a weak 180, he's too confused and doesn't know what to make of my behavior. But his comment makes me think that he finds it as least remotely enticing. He also said "I wish you had been like this all along, I guess you're that much better for the next guy even if it isn't me."


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## LongWalk

so_conflicted said:


> I 180 has him totally confused. I think he is suspicious as to why I'm not fuming mad and wanting to destroy him and why I seem so at peace with everything that's happening.
> I just explain it to him when he questions my niceness as I am growing into a better person who doesn't waste energy on vengeance. I want to be proud of my actions and the way I handle pain and betrayal. I want to use this experience to set a good example for my girls. He has said (last weekend) "Part of me is sitting here thinking that I'd like to be part of this new family"
> 
> I think he doesn't trust that my behavior is real (vs and act) and that as soon as he lets his guard down or says he wants to R I am going to morph into this raging lunatic. I think he's actually waiting to see if this "new me" sticks because it is so different from the me he has known all these years. I don't think he sees me as doing a weak 180, he's too confused and doesn't know what to make of my behavior. But his comment makes me think that he finds it as least remotely enticing. He also said "I wish you had been like this all along, I guess you're that much better for the next guy even if it isn't me."


Brilliant. And you should have replied that you will even be better in bed.

Of course anger and the desire for revenge are difficult to sustain. They are not healthy emotions. It is important to show self respect. People with strong self esteem feel less need to take revenge, although I am not saying revenge is not warranted or right at times.

So, what perfume did you wear?

Also, you are not acting. The change is real. Moreover, if commits to your family again, he will drop all the talk of moving. It will seem like a waste of energy when he should be working to repair and improve the most important relations in his life. This is still an if, though.

Keep going.


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## so_conflicted

For some reason (I actually a little worried and so is my counselor) I have only felt angry once during this whole process. I have a feeling it will come but so far it's only been confusion sadness and fear. I really do want to be this strong, confident person, I like the way I feel when I'm acting that way. I really think he is so scared to trust my behavior that he can't even think straight. Haha He knows what he wants but now I am not what he thought I was so he confused. It's definitely hard to put the blame on me for his unhappiness when I am so darn easy to get along with!

We talked over the phone but next time I see him I'll give the perfume a shot!

Anyway,


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## Busy Accountant

Conflicted

You and your H are both on roller coasters. His comments of "part of him wanting to be part of this new family" then not mentioning the move is his ride. Don't let him push you into the seat next to him and lock you in. You have your own coaster to ride. What I am saying, is to try (as best you can) to not analyze every comment he makes. It will drive you nuts.

Here's what I see even with his comment about the "new family". Did he have any part of making that new family? He just wants to jump in not paying the price?

Conflicted, do you have a clear or even blurry picture of what it would take to allow H the honor of returning to you?

I just don't to see you get sucked into his charms.


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## so_conflicted

Conflicted, do you have a clear or even blurry picture of what it would take to allow H the honor of returning to you?

I do know at least the bare minimum it would take for me to agree to try R
1. MC
2. switch jobs (still not sure if a transfer within the company would be enough for me)
3. NC letter
4. transparency without resentment
5. A genuine desire to be with ME, not just have his life/routine/comfort back


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## LongWalk

Number 5 is all that matters if you can read him. That doesn't mean the other elements are not important but they are secondary. Moreover, if 5 is true, the others will follow to the degree they are necessary.

You should read Gut Punch's thread.


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## Remains

Sc, I am so pleased to read the way you have taken control of this situation (positive control that is! I also agree with a previous poster that maybe it is your husband using that word to manipulate you as opposed to it being genuinely truthful). I posted at the beginning and have only just come back, the change in you is wonderful to see. I think a lot of BS's could learn from your strong actions. 

You are doing a great 180 and I do think that there is a good chance he will eventually show some strong signs of wanting to come back. They seem to be just beginning from what you describe. 

And yes, your 180 is probably confusing him. His actions, when they seem cool to you or like he is not bothered, don't forget he has his pride too....'well if she is being like that then she is obviously not bothered and so I won't show that I am bothered' kind of thing. Ya know, when kids spit their dummies out and throw all their toys out of the pram. 

Also, some of his comments seem to be testing the water. So try not to get too confused by them! Though his more recent comments, also testing the water I imagine, are more tainted with a second thoughts and regret kind of scenario. Keep it up! Things, from what I read, are really going your way and your behaviour is making that happen. I hope you get the result you want. And I believe that whatever the result, you will tackle it well. Well done!


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## alte Dame

We become so integrated with our spouses that we forget what it was like before we met them, when we were perfectly happy as individuals.

The 180 helps to break the dependence on the spouse and build back the individual self that we sacrificed during the marriage. 

I think this can be good whether you reconcile or divorce. You need to feel that you are OK on your own, which you are. You really are.

And perhaps he is starting to realize that the dynamic that he didn't like in your marriage might have something to do with him, not just you.

Try to take one day at a time, if you can. Keep up with the 180 and make that your challenge for the day. Try not to second-guess his feelings as much. The point of the 180 is to help you help yourself.


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## so_conflicted

Yesterday H and I took youngest daughter to a psychiatrist for depression, recommend by her therapist. I mentioned in the "intake" interview portion when she asked about major life changes that H has moved out and that our daughter is aware that he had an A. After the appt H FLIPPED OUT. He was so angry and said "I knew I was right! People don't change! You proved I was right, that you will ALWAYS hang this over my head!" I explained that the psych's job is to help our daughter and if she doesn't know everything that's on her plate how can she help her deal with it. He said that I did it on purpose to hang it over his head and that I will tell anyone who will listen. I reminded him that I haven't told anyone (except for this board) and he reminded me that I have told my mom, brother and sister in law. I told him that they are my support system and that I need them, but I have not said a word to anyone else. He was still furious so I reminded him that if I truly wanted to hang this over his head, I have access to all of his colleagues via facebook, email or phone and yet I haven't done that. this is his favorite excuse for walking away from our family to say that I will always hold it over him. I haven't once and I didn't plan to in the future, but now I am rethinking it.
He also said "sorry I keep going back and forth, suggesting ideas that I later decide I really don't want to do, that wasn't right and I apologize. I really do want to be on my own." 

So after school he dropped youngest off at home I told him what a POS he is and that his rock bottom is coming big time. Funny thing is he is totally delusional about the pain he's caused and what karma he's in for. 
Apparently in the carpool line a teenage girl rear ended him, totally minor, you have to be looking for the damage to see it. So as he's explaining what happened he says "I better be in for a lot of good karma, I didn't ask for her insurance or anything, I just told her it was ok" I just burst out laughing and said "You think you deserve good karma? You have a SH*T STORM of bad karma headed you way any day now!"

After I reminded/lectured him about how lost he is and how much he hurt everyone and how he's eventually going to have to face what he's done and who he is...can't live in selfish fantasy land forever I told him that I don't want any contact with him. The girls are big enough that he can make arrangements through them, they both have phones. I told him I don't want him to call, text or email unless it is an absolute emergency with the kids. He seemed slightly surprised and said "OK, that's fine but there are a few things we will have to talk about...like when the car sells.." I just reminded him that our contact will be only out of absolute necessity and reminded him that he said he doesn't want a relationship with me (by he saying he wants to be on his own) so he doesn't get to text, call and email me anymore.
Last night the younger daughter slept over at his mom's place with him, but the older didn't want to go. This morning he took both to the movies and then going to lunch and the oldest will come back and younger will stay the night again tonight. Wonder if "family" activities without me there feels off to him?

I just can't understand why it is that while he's the one who screwed up, I am the one willing to try to forgive and fix this and he's the one saying (more or less) no thanks, I don't want you. He's wanting me to prove that I won't hold it over him, when he should be proving that he's going to change and fix things? He should be begging for another chance not thinking about if I can change enough to not make it miserable for him to come back. 
How did my life even get to this point?I feel so unwanted, even a screw up, cheater, lost soul doesn't want a life with me....
Sorry. Not fishing for sympathy, I know most of you have been in my shoes, just getting those thoughts out of my head by venting them here.


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## alte Dame

so_conflicted said:


> How did my life even get to this point?I feel so unwanted, even a screw up, cheater, lost soul doesn't want a life with me....


Your H doesn't sound like he knows what he wants.

The more you follow the 180, the more clear-headed you will be about your own value. He has treated you badly and you don't deserve it.

There is a poster here who went through terrible times with infidelity and says that he got through the feelings of 'unwantedness' by repeating the mantra, 'I deserve good things.' And you do deserve good things.


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## LongWalk

I don't think you can argue sense into him. Just keep with 180. The absolutely no emailing and no calling will just create communication problems. Be practical.

Accept communication that relates to the children. Do not respond to communications that rub you the wrong way. Do not dignify them with an answer.

The list of 5 minimum demands you had was quite reasonable. Can't remember if you are going to MC. But if you are, there you could say that you want him to express unreserved affection and love for you. Did you ever give him the article about the reaction of BS, so that he can understand what you are going through. It's been pasted on TAM hundreds of times. If he reads it, he'll know why rugsweeping is not good.

Present him with D papers. There is nothing to prevent you from adding a note to say that there is nothing to prevent him from working to repair the situation. He has to do the work.


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## so_conflicted

The last few days have been really rough. It seems like I am losing him all over again now that I have cut off communication with him. I feel so sad most of the day and like there is a piece of me missing all the time. Everything reminds me of him and the family we used to be.

I want so badly for him to wake up from this fog and see how great our family was and that being alone isn't the fantasy land he thinks it's going to be. I worry though that as I miss him ever-so-slightly less each day the same will happen with him, rather than him missing me more each day and realizing what he's giving up. then there's the always present emotion of feeling like an idiot for missing and longing for the person who betrayed me. I just can't seem to find the shut off switch to stop the love I've had for him for 15 years!

The pain actually has become physical at certain times lately. Shortness of breath and a mild pain in my chest. Go to IC again tomorrow and I will mention it. 

Not ready for D, I am still hopeful the fog will break and he will want to R. Please don't blast me....just being honest about where I'm at in this process. 

I think ceasing all communication might be a hindrance, but for the short term it's summer and the kids things are over for the most part so I am just giving him the opportunity to be without me in every sense and see if that brings anything to the surface for him. If not, then I guess it's one more piece of evidence that he's not ever going to fight to get me and our M back. Might just be giving him proof that he's right about being alone but I'm hoping it will do the opposite and works in my favor.

Then there's the question of pride....What if he wants me back but doesn't want to approach me with it because he's gone back and forth so often and because he has been so insistent that he knows he wants to be alone? I guess it just boils down to what matter more, right? Me or his pride?

How do i stop feeling so sad, every single thing in my life feels like a trigger.


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## daggeredheart

I want to share with you a story because you remind me so much of my cousin. 

She was married twenty years, had two girls (pre-teens). The full life, active in her community, lived on a tropical island and very content with the one exception that she wished her spouse was more affectionate. One day he dropped the bomb that he was gay..... and there is no reconciliation from that. 

She was devastated and going through many of the emotions you expressed here yet without any hope of rebuilding because of his "news"..... She never felt like she could over come this. Cried every day and sunk to the bottom. I was so worried for her. 

Would you believe that yesterday she posted a picture of herself on a beautiful hike with the caption of....." I can't believe a year ago I was crying my eyes out"...look how far I've come. 

Her ex husband is still gay, the bills are still piling up, the girls still are teens and all that entails but she has started healing when she never thought she would.....she smiles, laughs goes to parties and actually has a boyfriend although she knows it probably won't turn into a serious relationship but the point is she is in a place she never imagined......joy! 

Not every divorce has a happy ending but smiles do find a way to come back with time.


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## so_conflicted

daggeredheart said:


> Not every divorce has a happy ending but smiles do find a way to come back with time.


I was thinking that while the girls and I were camping this past weekend with my family. We go on this same trip every year and it felt so wrong without H there, but at one point I did think to myself "Next year when we come here I know I will be in a better place...either he'll be here again with us, or I will have come to accept life without him, without the pain I feel today"

I just can't bring myself to accept D just yet. Everyone who knows us has said some variation of: " it might take some time but he's going to figure it out, sooner or later he's going to come to his senses, once his "vacation period" is over he's going to realize what he's missing etc." Given that everyone seems to share the same thought and I want to R I can't bring myself to file for D right now.


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## alte Dame

There are two different, conflicting sayings. Both of them strike a chord with people, even though they appear to be saying the opposite thing:

"Absence makes the heart grow fonder."

"Out of sight, out of mind."

You are hoping that the first will be true, but are afraid that your 180 will simply create the effect of the second.

People are telling you that he will come to his senses because that actually happens quite often. As you know, however, it also can happen that he is happy with his independence and never really looks back.

He controls what he does. Nothing you do short of chaining him up can guarantee that he stays by your side, so you have to go with controlling what you do for yourself.

You know, there are theories in biology that posit 'survival of the species' motivations for almost all of human behavior. In this POV, the purpose of heartbreak - the actual pain, emotional and physical, that we experience - is to protect the nuclear family so that children can survive to adulthood and reproduce themselves. Heartbreak is definitely an effect that can achieve its aim, but is far from foolproof. When the family in fact breaks up, the biological reflexes of heartbreak begin to fade. This happens because the heartbroken person has other survival mechanisms.

So...you will survive. You don't need us to tell you that, but we can tell you to keep reminding yourself of it. The heartache will lessen. You will be stronger.

Right now, you can't know what he will do, but you can try to do what you need to in order to start healing for yourself. That means trying to let go of the daily contact that keeps the heartbreak effect so active and alive. Keep loosening the bonds by using the 180. He is going to do what he is going to do. You take care of yourself.


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## LongWalk

alte Dame said:


> There are two different, conflicting sayings. Both of them strike a chord with people, even though they appear to be saying the opposite thing:
> 
> "Absence makes the heart grow fonder."
> 
> "Out of sight, out of mind."
> 
> You are hoping that the first will be true, but are afraid that your 180 will simply create the effect of the second.
> 
> People are telling you that he will come to his senses because that actually happens quite often. As you know, however, it also can happen that he is happy with his independence and never really looks back.
> 
> He controls what he does. Nothing you do short of chaining him up can guarantee that he stays by your side, so you have to go with controlling what you do for yourself.
> 
> You know, there are theories in biology that posit 'survival of the species' motivations for almost all of human behavior. In this POV, the purpose of heartbreak - the actual pain, emotional and physical, that we experience - is to protect the nuclear family so that children can survive to adulthood and reproduce themselves. Heartbreak is definitely an effect that can achieve its aim, but is far from foolproof. When the family in fact breaks up, the biological reflexes of heartbreak begin to fade. This happens because the heartbroken person has other survival mechanisms.
> 
> So...you will survive. You don't need us to tell you that, but we can tell you to keep reminding yourself of it. The heartache will lessen. You will be stronger.
> 
> Right now, you can't know what he will do, but you can try to do what you need to in order to start healing for yourself. That means trying to let go of the daily contact that keeps the heartbreak effect so active and alive. Keep loosening the bonds by using the 180. He is going to do what he is going to do. You take care of yourself.


:iagree: The original 180 had some impact. And at that moment when power had shifted you laid out 5 conditions for R. Today when things don't look good, your hard line has crumbled. Point 5 of your list was the essential element: you wanted him to love you.

Now are you thinking that you would like to remain married so that you could win back his love over time? But remember without respect, how likely is that love to come back?


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## so_conflicted

I am just not ready to make that leap of ending things for good. At least not right now. He hasn't been pushing for it either (unless he's working on it behind my back) So, we both seem to be a holding pattern for right now just being apart and seeing how we feel. I know I shouldn't give him the option of trying out "being on his own" but I still want to R.

I know I will get to that point to have the strength to take the steps to make it final, right now I just want to see if the complete lack of contact with me has any effect and breaks the fog. I feel like if I file D he will never try to R. He will just accept that I want it to be over, and that he deserves it for what he did. He's not one to fight, he hates confrontation even when fighting is in his best interest. The ONLY time I have ever seen him argue or confront someone was about our kids.


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## walkonmars

You have it in you to get through this. We all do. We just need to courage to find it - but it's there. You will survive and thrive.


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## so_conflicted

Just a random question...
For those of you who have been the BS, what has it taken to break the fog or what finally brought on reality for WS?
Did they just wake up one day? Was it being served with D papers? Was there a major life event that triggered it like losing a loved one (other than BS) or a car accident? I'm sure there are many different answers but I am just curious if it it typically takes something drastic or if they tend to just figure it out one day.

The sadness seems to be gone so far today (but it's still early) for some reason filing for D is occupying most of my thoughts. I think filing would be a good start to protecting myself and kids and it would definitely send a message to H. But I'm still just not sure if I'm ready to go there yet, but the fact that it's on my mind as a possibility in the future feels like progress. I guess I don't think I'm quite strong enough for the blow of his response (to being served) which is most likely to be appreciating/accepting the D rather than working for R. I feel like his easy acceptance would break me all over again.


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## daggeredheart

Fog- I think it depends on the depth of the affair and the type of affair. In a exit affair, nothing will "break" it because that partner is looking for a way out of the marraige. 

In my case it was kicking him out and telling him he could "go to her"...reality was she was in Iran and logistically impossible. 2nd, their big plan was to "wait" for each other until she could leave her country in a year and half so WS thought he would get a studio apartment and be content chatting online for the duration......well that lasted about four days before he realized that he was a fool. 

He was cake eating....have a real life with me (family, physical touch, actives and a history together) and with her he was getting the ego boosting, newness and enjoying that discovering stage everyone goes through in the beginning of a romance. Once I took that away he was left w the chatting and that wasn't fulfilling enough. 


In my first marriage it was a different outcome.....I caught ex cheating in the 8th year of marriage with a co-worker. I did everything wrong...heck I was only 27 years old but I begged and pleaded, tried to change to be everything he said she was and compromised my principles in a effort to keep him. What a mistake but I dodged a bullet and I see that now. 

Ex H picked her and although he did try to play both women for a bit we ended up divorcing ( I filed) and they are married now and have been for many years.....and I feel overjoyed because it set me free. 


I think one of the differences is proximity..and the type of affair. If they think it's love etc. It also takes about two years for infatuation to fade. I believe "His Needs, Her Needs" by Dr. Harley address how meeting needs helps break the "fog" 

Ask yourself this, do you want his fog to break because you really want him back or you just want your bruised ego to feel better...think hard on that.


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## Remains

For me, I think his OW ditching him, and time, was the thing that made the fog lift. I realise this doesn't help you, but I think time is the key. 

BTW he has never told me she ditched him. I don't think I have the real story.

And hang in there. You are doing great. I think if your husband really wants you he will make it clear. He knows that you want him, he knows you don't want to split, and so if he wants that door opening again he has some chance that you have not changed your mind yet. He probably doesn't feel he wants the marriage back, otherwise he would be trying. He is probably though, highly likely, confused and changing his mind back and forth a lot. Just keep strong and let him come to the decision on his own. Best of luck.


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## Remains

And yes, me not wanting the relationship any longer made him want it more. At DD he was not prepared to put any effort in. Now, with help from my giving up along the way on a frequent basis, he has gradually given more and more of what he 1st refused. And he has gone from giving grudgingly to freely giving and wanting to do so.


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## so_conflicted

Daggeredheart,
As with most, I assume our situation is not clear cut. I think the A was combination of an exit affair and infatuation/comfort. He had mentioned never being on his own a few times throughout the M so I think he's always felt like he missed out of some right of passage or something. Also, as these feelings of wanting to be on his own grew OW was his shoulder to cry on and he developed feelings for her based on the nurturing she provided. I honestly believe that A has completely ended and they are platonic (because they have to communicate professionally) at this point. Although his feelings for may not have faded completely. I think the fallout from the A has left him with a bad taste in his mouth where she is concerned.

I think being on his own is something he needs to do, because he feels like he missed out but I am 99% sure he won't find fulfillment in it. He is the type of person that loves to be loved. He thrives on being taken care of and likes routine and the comfort it brings. I truly believe that once he gets this "being on his own" bug out of his system he is going to realize that it isn't really what he wanted for his life, it was just something he wanted to experience. He genuinely is the type that thrives on family life.
I think him going back and forth is him facing his own feelings about wanting to try being alone vs what he wants in life long term. 
As far as my bruised ego, yes I would love to know that he really did miss me and really would do anything to be with me again. However, I still constantly think about having a future with him and all the experiences I want to have, so it's deeper than just mending my ego. I really do want a life with him, if he is wanting a life with me and willing to prove it. I am not interested in talking him into R. His heart has to be in it.
Remains, 
I am trying to make it seem as if I am losing interest in our M by cutting off contact to hopefully find myself in your situation where he is wanting it more and giving freely. It's only been 4 days and no sign so far, but as you said it takes time. My heart isn't patient.


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## carmen ohio

Dear s_c,

Let me make a few observations:



so_conflicted said:


> Daggeredheart,
> As with most, I assume our situation is not clear cut. I think the A was combination of an exit affair and infatuation/comfort. He had mentioned never being on his own a few times throughout the M so I think he's always felt like he missed out of some right of passage or something. Also, as these feelings of wanting to be on his own grew OW was his shoulder to cry on and he developed feelings for her based on the nurturing she provided. I honestly believe that A has completely ended and they are platonic (because they have to communicate professionally) at this point. Although his feelings for may not have faded completely. I think the fallout from the A has left him with a bad taste in his mouth where she is concerned.
> 
> *I think being on his own is something he needs to do, because he feels like he missed out but I am 99% sure he won't find fulfillment in it. He is the type of person that loves to be loved. He thrives on being taken care of and likes routine and the comfort it brings. I truly believe that once he gets this "being on his own" bug out of his system he is going to realize that it isn't really what he wanted for his life, it was just something he wanted to experience. He genuinely is the type that thrives on family life.*
> *I think him going back and forth is him facing his own feelings about wanting to try being alone vs what he wants in life long term. [You may be right, in which case the question is, how long will it take for him to realize this and how long are you prepared to wait? Or you may be wrong and, the longer he is on his own, the less inclined he becomes to seek reconciliation, in which case you would be better off trying to snap him out of his funk before that happens.]*
> As far as my bruised ego, yes I would love to know that he really did miss me and really would do anything to be with me again. However, I still constantly think about having a future with him and all the experiences I want to have, so it's deeper than just mending my ego. *I really do want a life with him, if he is wanting a life with me and willing to prove it. I am not interested in talking him into R. His heart has to be in it. [This is absolutely right. The desire to reconcile has to come from him and be strong if your marriage is to have any chance of becoming the kind of marriage that you want. Again, the question is, what is the best way learn what he wants -- give him time or give him an ultimatum.]*
> Remains,
> I am trying to make it seem as if I am losing interest in our M by cutting off contact to hopefully find myself in your situation where he is wanting it more and giving freely. *It's only been 4 days and no sign so far, but as you said it takes time. My heart isn't patient.[Actually, you are an amazingly patient person and extremely insightful and level headed to boot. I can't help but think what a fool your WH is to risk losing you.]*


In the end, it is for you to decide how to proceed. For what it's worth, if it were me, I would only rely on the 180 for a little longer and, if he didn't beg soon for another chance, would serve him with divorce papers. I just have a feeling that that may be what it will take to snap him back into reality.

Wishing you grace and discernment.


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## PamJ

so_conflicted said:


> Just a random question...
> For those of you who have been the BS, what has it taken to break the fog or what finally brought on reality for WS?"
> 
> In our case my H woke up when he saw how hurt I was when I realized the extent of their 2nd time around affair. When I knew he had been trickling out info just a little at a time as I found things, as they do, but kept digging and found out he had fallen back into, or really pursued the OW full tilt in his online affair for the 2nd time.
> 
> I was not crying or yelling or enraged, I was just so hurt that I was numb. I realized there was nothing i could do to get through to him. I knew I would just have to let him go, send him away or whatever it would take to end this torture I was going through.
> 
> Prior to this he was still not admitting all, just whatever I had seen. He didn't know anything I asked him, especially 'why?'. He claimed no knowledge of things I couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt or downplayed what I did see, still in that state of deny everything.
> 
> He said the look on my face was what did it for him. He realized how badly this hurt me which somehow he hadn't seen before. He said he never wanted to do that to me again and has been doing everything to make sure he never does.
> 
> So far, so good.


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## cpacan

so_conflicted said:


> Just a random question...
> For those of you who have been the BS, what has it taken to break the fog or what finally brought on reality for WS?
> Did they just wake up one day? Was it being served with D papers? Was there a major life event that triggered it like losing a loved one (other than BS) or a car accident? I'm sure there are many different answers but I am just curious if it it typically takes something drastic or if they tend to just figure it out one day.


My wife made a turnaround when she realized two things:

1. I was finally prepared to leave her, and willing to follow through when I presented my NUTS to her in a very calm and controlled manner.

2. She realized that I was more than capable of finding a replacement for her - younger, pretty and smart women.

We're not there yet, but this week she came a bit closer, when she told me that she was aware of the fact that I might leave her, and that she had decided to become a different person. Now she just needs to convince me and tell me how it's gonna happen. Baby steps in the right direction.

I don't know how much it will take to make your husband see that for himself, but a very serious talk, make it visible through your actions that you will manage without him, divorce papers - all are good options.


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## LongWalk

Cpacan, you're from Denmark. Are there forums like this in Danish? Do you think is better than those in your native language?

Do you come here because you use English a lot at work and it feels easy to be bicultural online?

Do you think the OP should be more direct with her husband?


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## cpacan

LongWalk said:


> Cpacan, you're from Denmark. Are there forums like this in Danish? Do you think is better than those in your native language?
> 
> Do you come here because you use English a lot at work and it feels easy to be bicultural online?
> 
> Do you think the OP should be more direct with her husband?


No forums like this one in danish. I've managed to find 2-3 subforums, dormant more or less (1, 2 or maybe 3 posts a week). I really like TAM and the support from the posters I interact with frequently, and I'm very happy about the support I have received and still get when I have bad days or challenges myself. TAM, well the people here, has often been a mental life saver for me.

I don't post as much as I would like to, simply because it takes more time for me to post in english - it's hard to express my true feelings, life experience and the insight that I have gained the last few years in english, even though I use english language on a daily basis.

I would like to put some effort into your last question, because I really think it's the key for So_conflicted - but I'll need get back later (it's work day now) and explain why I think so, based on my own painfull and hard learned experiences.


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## cpacan

As promised, here are some additional thought of mine. I apologize in advance if my post sounds a bit harsh; understand that my words come from a good heart, and that I wish the very best for you.

I just re-read the thread and one thing stick out: Conflicted, you tend to use the word “should” a lot. You also write a lot about what might be going on inside your husband’s head. I understand it, been there, done that.

You are struggling with a potential breakup that you didn’t ask for, but I really think you need to think about this. He is self-absorbed, he is only living his own life watching out for his own interests. You, on the other hand, are trying to get into his head and live his life. Well, while his over there, and you are over there, who’s living YOUR life??

You try to apply the 180 which is a practical DIY-guide on how-to-detach, but your heart isn’t in it. I think you use it to try to manipulate your husband back into the relationship, and I think he has called you out on it. It’s not going to work.

I fought like a mad man myself during the first 8-12 months past D-day. I worked on myself, changed for the better, I tried to shower her with love, I was angry, I was sad – emotions all over the place. She didn’t move one inch. She even tried to get in “friendly” touch with OM a couple of times, and I was furious. Nothing seemed to help and I didn’t know what to do, until I finally reached a point where I was totally exhausted from the fight to win her back. I just couldn’t do it anymore. I downloaded divorce forms and saved them to disc. I went through the papers preparing myself to fill them out. I even researched the topic “Kids from divorced families”. I was absolutely ready to terminate our marriage, throughout my body and soul. It was a choice had to make; would I rather lose my mind than lose my marriage.

The next day I told her that I finally understood that I can’t MAKE her do or think anything, MAKE her love me, so I had made up my mind and written down my criteria for continuing our relationship. She read them and asked if she could think about it. Next morning she came back and said that they were fair except for one thing, she wouldn’t live like a Muslim female with any contact to other males. I agreed to that as long as the conversations were not on a personal level.

The single most important of my terms were, that I would not accept one small or large lie about anything at any time – it’s a deal breaker. And she does not to this day doubt that I mean it, deadly seriously, which I do.

You need to get to a place where you are absolutely confident, that if he doesn’t want to be with you, that you can and will let him go. He has to want it himself and if you are truly there, he will sense it and make up his mind. If he chooses not to come back, you are ready to move on. And if does come back, he knows exactly where your boundaries are, and you can start to rebuild. There’s a saying here at TAM, “The one who needs the marriage the least is the one in control”. I think those are very wise words, though I don’t quite like the concept of one spouse being in control.

My wife has told me recently, that it didn’t ever occur to her, that she might lose me in the process. She said: “I knew you were there, I took you for granted. I have decided not to do that anymore.” Like I mentioned earlier, now she just needs to show me how she’s going to control that dormant wayward shadow side of hers. Then we’re good.

In hindsight – I should have made her leave immediately after D-day, and the process might have been easier.

Conflicted; I wish you all the best, remember it’s all in your head – take your own life back.


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## LongWalk

CPAcan, that is very interesting. In fact, I thought much the same as you. SC, if you will allow me, I will write a letter that formulates what I think you have been thinking, and what CPAcan seems to suggest about being honest about rather than manipulative.

Also, I think you have appeal to his masculine pride. His fear of control. One of the obstacles to R may be his fear of his future status, i.e., lower than before the affair.

SC, I am from the US but live in the same part of the world as CPAcan, so you are getting Scandinavian consulting from two guys. 

CPAcan, jag var i Copenhamn nyligen. En fin stad. Min dotter blir 18 snart och planerar resa ditt med skolkompisär i augusti.


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## LongWalk

Based on what you have been posting, I tried to imagine what sort of letter you might write him. Could go something like this?

Dear estranged husband,

Neither of us knows what the other is thinking and feeling, in part because our problems have cut us adrift. Sometimes the wind and waves seem to push us closer, other times farther away. I do not know where you are. Let me explain where I am.

You walk into a room. But you cannot remember why because you suddenly see me. I am entwined with a man. Imagine that. You are frozen, cannot move, cannot breath. Imagine that I am so into him that I do not even notice your presence. You do not exist. You stand and gaze, unbelieving. Suddenly I see you. The other sees you, too, separates and flees in fear, apologizing to avoid violence. It is like a bad comic about cheating. Only this real.

I am wet but not from you. I am so ashamed I want to cover myself from your eyes. The same eyes that have seen me naked so many times and so naturally. The situation is strange and horrible. Our thoughts cannot keep up with our feelings. We don’t even feel that we are in our bodies.

That scene, regardless of the state of our marriage is or was in, would be an injury to your soul; it would feel like a physical blow.

I am living with such scenes in my imagination. Only it is you with her. The images are not even real but I cannot erase them. So, they are real. They fill me with self-doubt. There are only two things that can make the pain bearable. One is to leave you and heal myself. The other is receive an overflow of your love and affection.

Divorce is in some ways very easy. It is a set of rules to put an end to a marriage. We will be helped by lawyers and judges. They will assist us to dissolve us. Outsiders, though, cannot save our marriage. Only you and I can do that.

If I chase you now, I will hate myself. I will be no use to you as a wife or lover. Because you chose another over me, you have to woo me. You have to caress me anew. You have work to connect our hearts. It must be some combination of action and words on your part. I cannot define it exactly. It is up to you to discover and invent. You are the man who either wants or doesn’t want his woman. It will take time. You will have to repeat yourself and console me again when the sadness creeps up. I will need reassurance. I will ask you questions. I will make demands. There is not even a guarantee that reconciliation will succeed.

I know that you would fight to defend our children without hesitation. That is a consolation. That good character you have. But will you fight for me? Your hesitation hurts me. It causes new pain. New doubts. You must know your own heart. You must be a man and take the risk.

Divorce will hurt us economically. It will cause us discomfort and pain. In the end, I will survive divorce if that is my fate because it is my responsibility to my children and myself. I do not how I will bear up but I will. People talk about being friends after divorce. I don’t know. It is not something I yearn to work on.

As far as parenting goes, I will always work to support your role a parent. I owe that to our children, regardless what becomes of us a couple. You will always have your children. Even if our marriage dies, it will have given us them, for which we should be grateful. We do not need to stay in a loveless marriage for our children. That would be no kindness to them.

I understand why you thought about us leaving our home to start somewhere else. That has no attraction for me at all. if we leave, you will not have to court me. I will have no chance to be shy and hopeful around you. You will not have to win me. I would just have to sacrifice even more. I would have to accept your affair and take whatever came. Would you do that if you had walked in and saw me with another?

People, as in people in our family, are not for your affair. They are no longer friendly to you. That might seem like an unbearable situation, but don’t forget if you are my husband and you make me feel loved and wanted, I will defend you from anyone. That is what a woman should do........

SC, I don’t if you should write such a letter. I simply tried to combine what I remember of your posts. Like CPA, I think you need to express your weakness in an attractive way, rather than hiding it behind a 180 that is full of holes. Take this idea for what is worth.


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## so_conflicted

Longwalk, thank you for the letter! I think it was very true to my thoughts and feelings. I definitely am considering giving it to him. Currently, he is respecting my wishes to not have contact. So I would have to go back on my request and I don't want to seem wishy washy like I am still longing for him (which of course I am)

I like that your letter brings up divorce so freely because I have such a hard time speaking those words in person, so I don't think he sees it as much of a threat. I actually asked him very shortly after Dday to hold off on filing for awhile until we had clear heads. I think he believes he has all the control there.

I still believe that he is in the fog and has no understanding of what he has done to the kids and I emotionally. I think even if I screamed it at him he still wouldn't hear it. I think your letter would be ideal if there was at least a light break in the fog.


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## so_conflicted

H sent a text about 40 minutes ago asking if I had a minute to talk. I replied for him to call me at home. He called and telling me that since I had asked him to inform me of any financial changes he makes; he wanted to let me know that he has opened his own checking account and talked to payroll at work and they will deposit $100 of his paycheck into his personal account every payday until we have temporary orders in place. Reminder: He is living with his mom and I am still paying all the bills (with our combined incomes) so he has virtually no need for any money. I'm actually curious what he is going to use $50 a week on. Guess that's irrelevant. He sounded very proud of himself for doing this, not arrogant but proud like a child would be for cleaning their room without being asked. Like he is relishing "being on his own"

He also mentioned his upcoming bonus as an opportunity to separate financially since the car does not seem to be selling. I told him I would have to look at the numbers because I believe the amount of the car vs the amount of the bonus to be very different.

I am sad that instead of the fog breaking he is just moving right along with starting his own life. I was very calm on the phone and acted slightly uninterested. But now that we are off the phone I am just heartbroken all over again. Why can't I just let him go? 

My kids are pretty aware of the situation and the both think it's going to take quite a while for the fog to break the younger thinks he'll just accept his mistake and live with it once he realizes what he's lost and the other thinks he'll try to come back but it will be too late.

I know this is all on him, but I just can't shake the thought of "why has this happened to me? I was a good wife, I loved him with all my heart, why is he so determined to live a life without me?"


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## LongWalk

I cannot answer about the fog because that is something that only you can feel or detect. The letter is not "mine". Every sentiment relates to something you wrote earlier, I only combined them.

Of course, I don't know how so-called mind movies work for women. But even if men are more upset about the sex and emotions while women are more upset about emotions and sex. The order is a detail since these things are so closely related.

For sure, men who think they are only having sex, can fall in love to their surprize.


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## happyman64

> I know this is all on him, but I just can't shake the thought of "why has this happened to me? I was a good wife, I loved him with all my heart, why is he so determined to live a life without me?"


It has nothing to do with you!

It is all about him....

Realize that. Accept it. Ignore him except for the kids and the finances.

Let Mr Selfish go. Because until you truly do he will not realize what he has lost, and you cannot move on.

And that is what you need to do right now. Move on.

Because when he sees you moving full steam ahead without him he will know what loss really feels like.

Stop crying about him moving on. I know it hurts.

But let him do some crying for a change. Take more control and let him go.


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## LongWalk

so_conflicted said:


> H sent a text about 40 minutes ago asking if I had a minute to talk. I replied for him to call me at home. He called and telling me that since I had asked him to inform me of any financial changes he makes; he wanted to let me know that he has opened his own checking account and talked to payroll at work and they will deposit $100 of his paycheck into his personal account every payday until we have temporary orders in place. Reminder: He is living with his mom and I am still paying all the bills (with our combined incomes) so he has virtually no need for any money. I'm actually curious what he is going to use $50 a week on. Guess that's irrelevant. He sounded very proud of himself for doing this, not arrogant but proud like a child would be for cleaning their room without being asked. Like he is relishing "being on his own"
> 
> He also mentioned his upcoming bonus as an opportunity to separate financially since the car does not seem to be selling. I told him I would have to look at the numbers because I believe the amount of the car vs the amount of the bonus to be very different.
> 
> I am sad that instead of the fog breaking he is just moving right along with starting his own life. I was very calm on the phone and acted slightly uninterested. But now that we are off the phone I am just heartbroken all over again. Why can't I just let him go?
> 
> My kids are pretty aware of the situation and the both think it's going to take quite a while for the fog to break the younger thinks he'll just accept his mistake and live with it once he realizes what he's lost and the other thinks he'll try to come back but it will be too late.
> 
> I know this is all on him, but I just can't shake the thought of "why has this happened to me? I was a good wife, I loved him with all my heart, why is he so determined to live a life without me?"


Well, this is why CPA and I don't think time is on your side. As for the fog, what do you mean? Is he in love with her or simply feeling free. You mentioned at the beginning that he is tired of being controlled by you. The fact that you calculate his auto and money situation is a bit controlling. It maybe something that has irritated him for a long time.

He may not fully see the vulnerable feminine side of you. So it is a very fragile situation for R. Being on his own is forcing him to be more self confident. He may be feeling hurt but more masculine, the captain of own ship. What you want him to do is apply that masculinity to you in self confident way. That would turn you on. But he has 1) see that 2) believe in it 3) dare to do it.

Maybe you should PM Turnera or Diawali (have they been on your thread? They are smart. Maybe CPA will reply tomorrow.

p.s. The fact that he is calling to get your opinion suggests he still seeks your approval.


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## so_conflicted

I have mixed feelings about time and how it plays into my situation. If I try to rush R he will h will never get to experience being on his own and will always feel like he missed that "amazing" (in his mind) part of life that everyone else got to have. I think that will land us right back where we are. I think he needs to see that the grass isn't greener being all alone, but that takes time. He's still in vacation mode enjoy the freedom from responsibility but while having no one to question his choices.

I do think that cutting off contact has pushed him father away than when I was being nice to him and we were talking freely. While that was happening he was at least waffling about coming back or not. Now it's my guess he sees me as the cold bit*h he wants to paint me as to make his decision easier to live with.

How do I make myself vulnerable so that he can be masculine toward me while still showing that I am ok without him?


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## LongWalk

That was what the letter was about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## so_conflicted

Here's the letter I plan to give H tomorrow when I see him at our daughters gymnastics meet. Thoughts/comments appreciated:

I feel compelled to explain my request that we not text/email/call one another at this time. I have not minimized communication with you as a way to punish you, be difficult or prove a point. I assure you there isn’t malice or spite involved. I am simply looking to spare my feelings, minimize confusion and uncertainty.
Since you moved out, I have received many mixed signals regarding your interest in our future. It seems to change every few days from considering working on rebuilding the marriage (exploring options etc.) to having no interest in anything but being on your own. 
Your indecision and wavering feelings have been the source of a lot of pain and confusion and I find it easier to limit our contact until you are 100% committed to your position. At that point, it may be possible for you and me to resume communication again. I expect this will be a slow process and time, along with thoughtful introspection will guide us to our true feelings about what is undoubtedly best for each of us. Until then, I wanted you to know where I stand and the genuine reason I requested you communicate with the girls.


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## LongWalk

Too much explanation. There is nothing emotionally direct in this that will inspire him. All it says is that your 180 is fake. Hardly the right message, given that intellectually you know your marriage could fail.

Ask Machiavelli if he can read your thread. He is insightful.

Your conundrum is that you see the more masculine assertive side of your husband coming out, but a way that is destructive to your marriage. You can read your husband well and often control his decision making. You don't want to return to that relationship because is not entirely satisfying to either of you.

Perhaps you would even like him to be more of a decision maker in your marriage? Would you like him to be more dominant/ creative in your sex life.

In short, you would like him to do the following:

1) look you in the eye and say he is sorry about the A
2) say that running away was stupid, that he is going fix things
3) still looking you in the eye, you want him to close the distance between you and initiate sex. Not pity sex, but real passion. So that you feel like he is your alpha dude
4) your children are surprized to find him home. In front of you he looks them in the eye and says I have not been a good husband or father recently but that is over. I am back. Tell me about your hurt and disappointment. We are going forward as family. And everybody's feelings count, but first yours.
5) he follows through on these promises
6) he reaches out to your family
7) your sex life just gets better. He is lifting weights.
8) you communicate better; he knows how to say no to you to maintain his sense of wellbeing. Is more of a decision maker. 

This could only happen if he gained insight and wanted it happen. But how? There are books that outline these things. I don't know if speaking about his in MC would work. Can't make things worse.

It would be terrible to do a bad R by rewarding negative behavior, i.e., if marriage is struggling, he should go out and mess around to win power in the relationship.

Leaving the subject of marriage and looking at business communication, we see that companies want to engage customers in a discourse that leads to a decision to buy the company's products. The message should have a "call to action".

You want your husband to act. Your messages have to have a call to action.


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## so_conflicted

Here's a version that is a little softer. He already knows where I stand, I'm sure of that. He also knows what I need from him in order to R, so I think reminding him when he hasn't even decided if he wants R would be premature at this point. My goal is to not give him anything to support the idea of impossible woman he is trying so hard to convince himself I am. When I cut off contact I'm pretty sure (in his mind) I confirmed the story he's selling himself. By explaining that I cut off the communication to spare my heart it will be harder to sell himself the lie. My goal is for him to understand why I did it and that the door is still open but only when he is 100% certain that is what he wants. Here it is:

I am writing you this letter because I am compelled to explain my request that we not text/email/call one another. I have not minimized communication with you as a way to punish or hurt you, be difficult or prove a point. It is my goal to never behave vindictively or set that kind of example for our girls. I assure you there isn’t malice or spite involved, I just wouldn’t do that. I have grown so much this past six months and am simply looking to spare my feelings, minimize confusion and uncertainty; nothing more.
Since you moved out, I have received many mixed signals regarding your interest in our future. It seems to change every few days from considering working on rebuilding our marriage (our long heartfelt discussions, possibility of marriage counseling, exploring options, etc.) to having no interest in anything but being on your own. 
Your indecision and wavering feelings have been the source of a lot of pain and confusion for me and in order to protect my heart I need to limit our contact until you are 100% committed to your position. At that point, I feel it may be possible for you and me to resume communication. I expect that for you and I alike, the healing, unabridged forgiveness, toward ourselves and one another and understanding will be a process. I am confident that thoughtful introspection will allow us to uncover our true feelings about what is undoubtedly best for each of us in the future and what will bring true, long standing happiness. Until then, I wanted you to know my thoughts and the genuine reason I requested you communicate primarily with the girls.


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## LongWalk

Married Man Sex Life Primer is the book that is recommended. Maybe you can buy a copy for your husband. I have not read it but the essential message is that successful relationships must be in tune with our psychological makeup. 

The letter you wrote is very guarded. It is not at all like the things you write in your TAM posts. It wouldn't move me at all if I were in your husband's position.

Your husband got an ego high off of the 23-year-old. Because it was at work and because home became hell, he ended it. He wanted to come home on his terms, without giving you 100% remorse. Now he is conflicted. Should he strike out and make a new life or cave in to all of your demands and be an eternal beta male in an unhappy marriage.

He doesn't see that he can be more of an alpha male in a new marriage with you. If he is 100% remorseful, you are ready to have some new dynamic in your relationship. You feel that he can be this man that you want him to be, but you cannot instruct in all the details because that wouldn't be very spontaneous or genuine.

I do not know how this can be done.

Maybe Mach will offer an opinion or CPAcan. Warlock. Turnera is good. Stella Moon. PM them and ask them to read your thread.


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## alte Dame

I think if you need to write something, it should be short, honest, and to the point. Something like:

"Dear X,

I love you and miss you and would be very happy if you decided that you felt that way about me. I know that you are at best conflicted right now and this is very painful for me. I need to guard my own heart, which is why I have asked for minimal communications. I hope you will understand my needs as I try to understand yours.

Love,
Y"


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## LongWalk

SC, here is what Machiavelli said. He is very well versed in the psychology of reproduction. One betrayed husband said that his son had just left home for college, then his wife began the affair. Mach said that it was a stepson that his wife had from a previous relationship, and the man replied yes how did you know? The man even said it was "creepy".

For Mach it was an educated guess that the woman had married the man to be provider and once the son was an adult, she became unfaithful

What Mach writes about your situation may seem "cold", but I think it is worth some thought. 

Quote:


> Originally Posted by LongWalk
> Husband has been a bit of beta guy. Meets way younger woman at work and has an affair. Moves out.


This is very Alpha. Younger woman, way alpha. Once WH gets his own place and move's out of Mama's, he's going to be in hog heaven as he gets the full player experience with a parade of young women. See, a woman's SMV drops fairly precipitously at 33, which is why she starts maxing out in libido (T). Her time is coming to an end and Mother Nature wants her getting plowed and planted often. At the same time, men are just starting a steep climb in SMV that will peak at age 40-45, despite the fact their libidos (T) have been in slight decline since 25. WH is getting more female attention than ever and, as a result, more confidence with women and otherwise. His Delta/Gamma behaviors, which caused his wife to have to wear the pants, are waning.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by LongWalk
> Wife wants him back.


Of course. With other women interested in her WH, his sex rank increases. He's more desirable than ever. Not to the BW's rational mind, but to her limbic attraction, and that's what's in the driver's seat.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by LongWalk
> She knows that she wants a more masculine, more alpha version of him to woo her. Can she encourage his masculinity from afar.
> 
> Should she give him one of the books you recommend?


It probably won't work as *he does not have personal integrity*. Those books/sites are designed to help Beta/Delta/Gamma men to add enough alpha traits to keep their wives from going after somebody else when they get the 7 year itch. This guy has added so much alpha on his own, that he has no interest in keeping his wife other than as a member of his harem, which he is clearly willing to do.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by LongWalk
> Can the sort of advice you give men be given to them through BS?


Probably not. The vast majority of "cheating" men stop extracurricular activities, at least temporarily, when caught. They value the marriage, but enjoy hot sex which is no longer on offer at home. *They have no intention of putting the outside women in the place of the wife. Women, though, tend to blow up the marriage and leave when caught.*

*Probably the best thing the wive here can hope for is that the pain she inflicts upon him through family court will be enough to make him give up and come home. Plus, it's likely that he will revert to Delta/Gamma at some future point.*

Men are polygynous and women are hypergamous. That's the bottom line difference and why advice aimed at BHs won't generally work for BWs.


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## LongWalk

alte Dame said:


> I think if you need to write something, it should be short, honest, and to the point. Something like:
> 
> "Dear X,
> 
> I love you and miss you and would be very happy if you decided that you felt that way about me. I know that you are at best conflicted right now and this is very painful for me. I need to guard my own heart, which is why I have asked for minimal communications. I hope you will understand my needs as I try to understand yours.
> 
> Love,
> Y"


:iagree: Alte Dame is right.

And even shorter. 

Dear X,

In our bed there is an empty spot where you used to sleep. I wish that you missed me but fear you do not. I need to guard my heart, which is why I do not want you calling.

The prospect of divorce saddens me. If you have a change of heart, I hope that you will speak.

Love,

Y


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## LongWalk

I think Mach's point about personal integrity is important.


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## Remains

SC, I agree that your letter is too long, I also think that it is quite cold. You say your husband knows you want to R, but you do need to reitterate that in a subtle way so that he still sees there is an opening rather than a cold closed door. People change, and he would probably see no continued wish for R in your letter. That your thoughts on R had changed.

I thought the 1st paragraph was good and should end before the 'Since you moved out.....' part. Everything that followed was based on his indecision and that you want 100% commitment in his decision whichever way it goes. This leaves you, and more importantly him, no room for manoeuvre. 

I think alte dame gave the best example for what you should write. I think this would give him food for thought. It explains why you want no contact and makes it clear you love him and want a life with him, but also tells him you are not begging him back but are trying to understand him with a subtle wish to move on, with or without him. This is a vulnerable and loving letter, but is also strong and accepting. You are not crumbling without him, not one hint of bitter or long winded explanations. This short letter will make him think more than you realise in my opinion.


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## cpacan

*Sv: Husband not sure I can move on after his affair*

A short comment from me. I think the letters are nice, keyword being "nice".
I think your husband might read it as "she will wait for me forever while I test ride other options".
Where are you in all this? If I may suggest a small exercise, try to express what you want now and in the future, with absolutely no mention of your husband. It worked wonders for me, and I think my wife noticed that as well.


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## cpacan

I agree that Alte Dames suggestion is short and clear, to the bone, I could still wish, though, that were some kind of indication that Conflicted has a life on her own and that she will move on wether he joins her or not. A bit too passive to my taste, it's hard to explain - just don't take the waiting position.


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## LongWalk

cpacan, you mean she would allow him to cast himself in the role of the person sharing the future together?

I think this is correct. He should chase. SC has to give him a glimpse of her passion, something to set him off after her.

At this point his life is in shambles, living with his mother and being without his children. His desire for the good things of his old life is all very well but it says nothing about his desire for SC as woman.

In many TAM threads there is discussion about the A sex. Was it good or not? There is sometimes a desire to console the BS with the thought it wasn't better than sex with them. You even read implausible stories about R in which the husband maintains that he suffered ED in all three hook up attempts. The wife buys this as the basis for R.

SC needs to feel competitive. She may be ready for hysterical bonding. On the other hand, maybe she doesn't even want him to touch her. Understandably she doesn't want to surrender her heart to him if he doesn't feel genuine remorse.

How strange people are. It isn't enough to have food and shelter, concrete objects, to be satisfied. Why are feelings that may or may not exist be so important for our lives?


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## Remains

How about alte dame's letter with an ending of:

'I hope you find the happiness you seek, I will find mine also, whether it is with or without you. 

I may or may not be here for you if you ever come to a desire to save your marriage. Each day that goes by is a day I miss you less. Right now I want to save our marriage, but tomorrow is another day'.


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## so_conflicted

So here is what I actually gave him. He read it immediately but did not give any type or response or reaction. We talked tonight about the car we are selling (i have a serious buyer coming tomorrow and I need he to either sign off on the title now or be present for the sale) He didn't mention the letter I gave him. Appreciate your feedback on the letter:

Neither of us knows what the other is thinking and feeling. Sometimes circumstances seem to be pushing us closer, other times farther away. I do not know where you are. Let me explain where I am.

I am writing you this letter because I am compelled to explain my request that we not text/email/call one another. I have not minimized communication with you as a way to punish or hurt you, be difficult or prove a point. It is my goal to never behave vindictively or set that kind of example for our girls. I assure you there isn’t malice or spite involved, in any way. I have grown so much this past six months and am simply looking to spare my feelings, minimize confusion and uncertainty; nothing more.
Since you moved out, I have received many mixed signals regarding your interest in our future. It seems to change every few days from considering working on rebuilding our marriage (our long heartfelt discussions, possibility of marriage counseling, exploring options, etc.) to having no interest in anything but being on your own. 
Your indecision and wavering feelings have been the source of a lot of pain and confusion for me and in order to protect my heart I need to limit our contact until you are 100% committed to your position. At that point, I feel it may be possible for you and me to resume communication. I expect that for you and I alike, the healing, unabridged forgiveness, toward ourselves and one another and understanding will be a process. I am confident that thoughtful introspection will allow us to uncover our true feelings about what is undoubtedly best for each of us in the future and what will bring true, long standing happiness. 
I know that you would fight to defend our children without hesitation. But will you fight for me and our marriage? You must know your own heart. You must be the man I know you are and take the risk, if your love is still there. If you do, we will work to redefine our roles and renew our marriage as an impenetrable partnership. Establish ourselves as equals, a team on all fronts with mutual respect for the others opinions and value. Put the rings back on, take control of our finances together, plan that trip to Disney World and so much more.

People, as in people in our family, are disappointed by your affair. They are no longer friendly to you. That might seem like an unbearable situation, but don’t forget if you are my husband and you make me feel loved and wanted, I will defend you from anyone. That is what a wife should do.

Just little bit of what I’m thinking and experiencing these days……


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## carmen ohio

It's a beautiful letter, s_c. Heartfelt and hopeful but not shying away from the issue.


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## so_conflicted

I didn't really get any response from the letter, not that it really asked for one but I thought he might at least say something.

Last night when we were showing the car to a potential buyer, we had a decent chat. I know he misses me, but I guess not enough. He said things like "so since we are acting like we are together because don't want his buyer to know that you and the girls are living alone, now is my chance!" I asked "chance for what, to grab my ass?" he replied with a huge grin "yeah and stuff" He didn't actually try anything of the sort but the fact that he was thinking it lets me know that he is still attracted to me and misses the affection we used to shower each other with. He also said he had been thinking something but wasn't gonna say it so to break the tension I said "What that I'm beautiful?" and he just laughed and said "You are drop dead gorgeous and you know it, I've always told you how beautiful you are." I told him I was only teasing but it was nice to hear. 
He also said that if he could stay in his current position at work that would open up a whole new discussion but he's just not willing to switch jobs. I said "so you miss the family life?" he said "Well duh, who wouldn't, of course I do" He said he always wanted to be married but it didn't turn out the way he thought. 

The desperate side of me wants to call him and tell him he can stay at the job and lets try again. The smart side of me says that if I do that he will lose respect for me.

I did ask if he was still seeing OW he said "we are good friends" I asked if they were having a relationship and he said "we are good friends, there's not reason not to be friends since we aren't together. But down the road I could see something possibly happening.....but she is pretty young so that probably wouldn't work. Besides she's the reason I'm getting divorced" I just replied with "yeah, can't imagine her saying 'Hi mom and dad, meet my forty year old boyfriend' he just laughed

He said that he knows and agrees that I have every reason not to trust him after what he did but he can't live with someone who doesn't trust him, so there's no way this can work. He doesn't want to live under the microscope because he feels like that's how he's spent the last 15 years. I reminded him that in the beginning of the M that was true but the last few years have been very different and that he's living with ghost of my old behavior and convincing himself that will return to justify not trying to R and walking away.


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## sandc

If it were me I wouldn't be engaging him in any small talk or any "life" talk. You are not going to be friends. You can be married or you can go your separate ways, only meeting to discuss children's matters. Just keep it all business. Don't fish for compliments. In fact, at this point don't let him think there is any coming back from this. If being on his own is what he wants, that's what he gets. But YOU want a loving man in your life. Make sure he knows that he will be replaced.

Anyway, just my opinion.


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## walkonmars

My cynical side tells me he's just trying to be a nice guy. At the very best, he's fishing to see if you'll cave in and accept that he'll remain friends with the girl and be granted blanket trust. He knows that financially, he's not going to do well. 

You are right to not give in. I know you want him back - but you need to have a real and committed spouse - not a guy who wants to re-live his youth by chasing after a teeny-bopper. 

Keep your cards close to your vest. Get busy with that lawyer. The sooner he sees that life won't be a bowl of cherries he may rethink his position. 


stay dark and keep 180 in play


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## so_conflicted

He keeps saying that he doesn't want either of us to waste money on lawyers. I told him that I don't even know what to ask for and he said that mediators will help us. I don't buy it. I told him that it didn't matter much to me because most of what I'm hearing from divorced women is that their H had to pay a big portion of their attorneys fees when the income is so lopsided. He said he would give me the house and not ask for a penny of the equity whenever I choose to sell it if he could keep the 401k. I told him that everyone who has been through this is confident that I will get the house AND half the 401K. He said that I was threatening him by saying those things. I told him I was just letting him know what I will be asking for and what I'm likely to get based on what attorneys have told me. He said "I know I'm going to be broke, but eventually child support and alimony will run out. Besides I'm not worried about you supporting yourself, you are going to make the most amazing kick a$$ wife to the next guy, I know you'll be fine"

I told him that I wasn't worried about finding another man that was already not a problem., but then said "nevermind you don't need to know any of that" He quickly asked "What? someone from work is interested in you? I said no way, not at work...just had a guy ask me for my number after a nice conversation at a party" he didn't respond. BTW, I didn't give the guy my number but I wish I had because he was in my shoes 12 years ago and had a lot of good advice.


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## sandc

So he's counting on not paying you any alimony. What a wiener. Sorry, I know you love the guy but I think you'll do better elsewhere. You'll be so shocked when you find out what a healthy relationship is like. Look at my avatar. Those are happy people who don't cheat on eachother, don't need space, like spending time with one another, looking forward to growing old together. You can have that too.


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## so_conflicted

No, he's planning on paying alimony, he just knows that it is not a permanent situation. He said he expects to be broke for at least the next five years. Within 5 years the oldest and 8 years both kids will be old enough for him to not have to pay child support and I'm sure he'll try to do the minimum when it comes to alimony. He mentioned once that the alimony isn't fixed for the duration that his friend told him it decreases every year or two. I don't know anything about it. Anyone know what to expect as far as length of time he will have to pay alimony from a 14 year marriage?


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## just got it 55

sandc said:


> So he's counting on not paying you any alimony. What a wiener. Sorry, I know you love the guy but I think you'll do better elsewhere. You'll be so shocked when you find out what a healthy relationship is like. Look at my avatar. Those are happy people who don't cheat on eachother, don't need space, like spending time with one another, looking forward to growing old together. You can have that too.


Cute Couple


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## walkonmars

When I read your description of his requests re lawyers and money I kept checking my back pocket to ensure my wallet was still there. He doesn't engender faith. Not at all. 

You are right. It's more than likely that he'll need to maintain your kids standard of living as much as possible and to disrupt their lives as little as possible. That means CS and maintaining the home until they're of age. 

Go for all you can - with a smile on your face. Don't let him browbeat you into settling for less than you deserve. He is hinting that you should settle for far less because you'll find someone else. 

Naw-aw. Not at all. Do see a lawyer. Let your husband know that one of you has to look out for the welfare of your kids. And it's fallen to you to do that in his absence.


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## walkonmars

so_conflicted said:


> No, he's planning on paying alimony, he just knows that it is not a permanent situation. He said he expects to be broke for at least the next five years. Within 5 years the oldest and 8 years both kids will be old enough for him to not have to pay child support and I'm sure he'll try to do the minimum when it comes to alimony. He mentioned once that the alimony isn't fixed for the duration that his friend told him it decreases every year or two. I don't know anything about it. Anyone know what to expect as far as length of time he will have to pay alimony from a 14 year marriage?


This is the very reason you need a SHARK atty. Don't be pennywise and pound foolish when it comes to this. Believe me, regardless of how much he smiles while he talks to you - he ain't lookin' out for your welfare - or his kids. Get that shark.


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## LongWalk

SC, you gave it your best shot. He should be bending over backwards to fix things but he has written your marriage off. You offered him passion but he didn't have the courage to try.

The discussion about the terms of divorce show that that is what has bothered him most of all. Get everything you have a right to and be done with him.

Sorry for you but life goes on.


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## sandc

Depends on what state you live in. For instance, in California the duration of support depends on a “rule of thumb.” For marriages that lasted less than ten years, the length of support will equal one half of the time. So for a marriage that lasted 8 years, support will have to be provided for 4 years.

If you are married for longer than 10 years, the lesser earning spouse will receive alimony for as long as he or she needs to, as long as the other spouse is able to pay.

So says a blog I was reading.


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## sandc

walkonmars said:


> This is the very reason you need a SHARK atty. Don't be pennywise and pound foolish when it comes to this. Believe me, regardless of how much he smiles while he talks to you - he ain't lookin' out for your welfare - or his kids. Get that shark.


If he was concerned about your welfare, he'd come home.


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## carmen ohio

so_conflicted said:


> I didn't really get any response from the letter, not that it really asked for one but I thought he might at least say something.
> 
> Last night when we were showing the car to a potential buyer, we had a decent chat. I know he misses me, but I guess not enough. He said things like "so since we are acting like we are together because don't want his buyer to know that you and the girls are living alone, now is my chance!" I asked "chance for what, to grab my ass?" he replied with a huge grin "yeah and stuff" *He didn't actually try anything of the sort but the fact that he was thinking it lets me know that he is still attracted to me and misses the affection we used to shower each other with. He also said he had been thinking something but wasn't gonna say it so to break the tension I said "What that I'm beautiful?" and he just laughed and said "You are drop dead gorgeous and you know it, I've always told you how beautiful you are." I told him I was only teasing but it was nice to hear. *
> He also said that if he could stay in his current position at work that would open up a whole new discussion but he's just not willing to switch jobs. *I said "so you miss the family life?" he said "Well duh, who wouldn't, of course I do" He said he always wanted to be married but it didn't turn out the way he thought. *
> 
> *The desperate side of me wants to call him and tell him he can stay at the job and lets try again. The smart side of me says that if I do that he will lose respect for me.*
> 
> *I did ask if he was still seeing OW he said "we are good friends" I asked if they were having a relationship and he said "we are good friends, there's not reason not to be friends since we aren't together. But down the road I could see something possibly happening.....but she is pretty young so that probably wouldn't work. Besides she's the reason I'm getting divorced"* I just replied with "yeah, can't imagine her saying 'Hi mom and dad, meet my forty year old boyfriend' he just laughed
> 
> *He said that he knows and agrees that I have every reason not to trust him after what he did but he can't live with someone who doesn't trust him, so there's no way this can work. He doesn't want to live under the microscope because he feels like that's how he's spent the last 15 years. I reminded him that in the beginning of the M that was true but the last few years have been very different and that he's living with ghost of my old behavior and convincing himself that will return to justify not trying to R and walking away.*


Dear s_c,

It seems pretty clear that your WH is fence-sitting: he's hoping that something will develop with the OW while keeping you in play in case it doesn't. He may not even realize that this is what he's doing, but he's doing it just the same. I know you love him and want him back but I think the time is coming soon when you are going to have to make the decision to move on without him.

Frankly, I can't fathom why he cannot see how foolish he is behaving but, for some reason (perhaps the ones you've described), he can't. His comment, "she's the reason I'm getting divorced," floors me and tells me that nothing short of being served divorce papers is going to get his attention. (I greatly admire the aplomb with which you handled it, joking about him being her 40 year-old boyfriend.)

Think about how long you are willing to let him slide: a month, six months, a year? I can't imagine this can go on longer than that, can you?


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## so_conflicted

The part that confuses me is that he thinks I'll make a great wife to someone else? WTF? Why doesn't he want me to be a great wife to him?
If we do D, which it's looking more and more that it will end that way I will get the attorney my brother has been fighting against (he has been in a custody case for years) this lady fights and wins everything for her client. Even some of the craziest stuff (which I'm not trying to go for more than I need or deserve) she gets the court to side with her on. She has a big retainer, but I can borrow or use a credit card of I have to and hopefully get the court to order that he pay a portion of her fees.

My deadline is the October 1. If something hasn't changed for the better, I will file D. D takes 90 days here and that would allow me to make a fresh start at the new year. Assuming he doesn't fight and drag it out past the 90 days.


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## walkonmars

Well you seem to have the patience of Job. Go ahead and wait until Oct but please (please, please) for you own benefit see this lady atty for a consultation NOW. It may be a free consultation, and it will preclude him from retaining her himself. 

Tell this atty your entire situation and your plans. She may have insight into nuances in your state laws that you need to be aware of. Don't delay on this.


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## so_conflicted

I did a phone consultation with her a few weeks ago, it was great, the next step is a face to face consultation. I will wait a little bit for that. H already has an attorney picked out. I actually called him when I found the number on H's phone right after DDay. He sounds like a nice easy going guy, but I wouldn't want him on my side, seems a little too laid back and possibly lazy. But who knows maybe he's a fighter. I just keep hoping he'll come to his senses but so far it seems like he's pulling farther away. EVERYONE who knows him (beside my youngest daughter) is confident that he'll figure out that he's an idiot and come back offering to do whatever it takes. I'm not so sure. That's part of the reason for delaying D.


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## walkonmars

It's a given that he's preparing well - getting advice from his friend who has gone through this, consulting with a lawyer etc. I'm fairly certain they've told him to be cordial with you and to not flaunt his gf in your face in order to keep you at bay. 

He's manipulating you - or attempting to do so. You need to keep this in mind. He seems to be playing games with you.


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## sandc

walkonmars said:


> It's a given that he's preparing well - getting advice from his friend who has gone through this, consulting with a lawyer etc. I'm fairly certain they've told him to be cordial with you and to not flaunt his gf in your face in order to keep you at bay.
> 
> He's manipulating you - or attempting to do so. You need to keep this in mind. He seems to be playing games with you.


*For the love of God, read this, and read it again!*


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## so_conflicted

I agree he is fence-sitting, he's keeping me on the line with little hints at a possible R but not ever committing to it. Meanwhile enjoying the reprieve from responsibility to his wife (he is still supporting us financially)
He asked me to please please let him know if I decided to get an atty. I told him I was going to hold off. I think if things don't change before my deadline I might just have him served. That's one way to let him know I got an atty, right? Obviously, I;mm feeling strong right now, just dreading when the next wave of missing him is going to hit. It would all be so easy if I didn't love him anymore.


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## Acabado

so_conflicted said:


> EVERYONE who knows him (beside my youngest daughter) is confident that he'll figure out that he's an idiot and come back offering to do whatever it takes. I'm not so sure. That's part of the reason for delaying D.


I don't know if it's possible. He's still fully engaged in the affair (refused to call it more than "good friends, admited it won't go anywhere...) and sounds ver, very detached.
Anyway.. he's not going to snap out if this if you keep having chats like yesterdays. You claimed youself trying the 180 route. You are not.

Another topic. if he's talking to a lawyer already I don't get how you have this October deadline. Hope you cover your basis well.

He's not only fencesitting and playing games but clearly cake eating. He admited it.


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## carmen ohio

so_conflicted said:


> I agree he is fence-sitting, he's keeping me on the line with little hints at a possible R but not ever committing to it. Meanwhile enjoying the reprieve from responsibility to his wife (he is still supporting us financially)
> He asked me to please please let him know if I decided to get an atty. I told him I was going to hold off. I think if things don't change before my deadline I might just have him served. That's one way to let him know I got an atty, right? Obviously, I;mm feeling strong right now, just dreading when the next wave of missing him is going to hit. It would all be so easy if I didn't love him anymore.


s_c,

If you truly want to save your marriage, it might actually be better to start divorce proceedings now, while you still love him. In a few months, your love may turn to anger and possibly even hate. If you divorce him then and he finally comes crawling back, you may no longer want him.

IMO, it's better to act sooner rather than later -- so that both parties are motivated to fix the marriage if the wayward partner comes to his or her senses.

Your decision, of course.


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## alte Dame

Your H is feeling his oats after feeling 'controlled' for years. He had a really young woman willing to have an affair with him and this gave him confidence and courage and his own type of swagger, it seems.

He feels justified in his actions and sees the OW not just as a potentially viable option, but as a sign that he doesn't have to stay in a marriage where he feels under your thumb. He now believes he has choices - if she is too young, she nonetheless has proved that he can have other women take him seriously.

So, he's full of himself. He doesn't have remorse for his affair. He thinks you brought it on yourself. He won't cut off contact for this reason. He thinks, 'Why should I torpedo my career when I'm not guaranteed happiness in this marriage?'

People are saying that he will come home because the grass often isn't greener on the other side. But, sometimes it is.

I still think you should religiously follow the 180 and get your ducks in line for a divorce. Take care of yourself. When he comes down from his high of over-confidence, he could want to come home. You can't count on that, though, and if you have gone on with your life, he will see you attracting other men, which you will do.


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## so_conflicted

Well, everyone has given me a lot of food for thought as far as when to start the D process. I was hoping that things would change before we had to take that drastic step. I don't think D papers will snap him out of it, if anything it will be time. I think he is loving the freedom and its all still new like a vacation. If he even does come to his senses it will be from the realization that life alone is lonely and that he had a lots of love that he willingly gave up. My brother predicts winter time when all he does is go to work in the dark come home in the dark, doesn't go anywhere because of the cold and spends every night in front of the TV all alone. That may never happen if H renews things with OW or someone completely new...

alte Dame, you hit the nail on the head with this one. He's said something very similar:
'Why should I torpedo my career when I'm not guaranteed happiness in this marriage?' 

He has convinced himself that he will be unhappy either way but being on his own is a finite period of unhappiness as a result of being broke where going back to the M could be lifelong misery if he is always being scrutinized


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## LongWalk

Divorce will concentrate his mind. You are making the mistake of allowing him to feel that he is dumping you. When he says you will make someone a good wife he means that he can find a better one than you. The 23-year-old has whetted his appetite for more romantic adventure. Mach said D court pain is the best way to get him back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## so_conflicted

Starting to realize that even if he were to come back right now, he is no where near what I would need. He is not at all ready or willing to do all the work it would take to make this a happy M. The fact that he is unwilling to switch jobs, go to MC should be enough of a sign. It's just that I am still struggling with letting the "plan" go. All the things we had planned to do together in the future now will never happen. I actually mentioned this to him in another conversation and he said "you'll find someone to do all those things with" 

He's not coming back, not for a very long time, if ever. I just have to let that idea sit for a bit before I take the next step. Once I am comfortable with that reality I know what I need to do. Guess I'm starting to move out of grieving and into something else.


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## karole

I'm so sorry, SC, you deserve so much better than this man.


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## LongWalk

SC, you are brave and smart. Your husband's brains were scrambled by OW. Your love for him will fade faster than you think
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## so_conflicted

Thank you everyone for being kind yet honest and wise when I was in my own little cloud. It feels refreshing to start accepting reality rather than wishing for a different one. Still stings, but I feel a little less needy and a lot more ready to face the future now that I'm facing the truth and not waiting around hoping for him to make the right choice. 

I think I still need a little time to act on this reality but I'll get there one step at a time. Might ready to file in a couple of weeks. Doesn't get more real than that


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## LongWalk

How old were you when you met? Do you feel too old to start another family?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## so_conflicted

I was 24, he was 22 when we met. I am turning 40 this fall, and would love to marry again. I am the kind of person that likes knowing that I have someone to come home to, someone to take to that work event, someone to spend my weekend with etc. I do not have any interest in having any more children. I love that my kids are older and fairly independent. I would not in any way want to go back to diapers and car seats. I really would not even be interested in a boyfriend or future spouse with children of his own unless they were grown and out of the house. I am done with the little kid phase of my life. I get that fix by working in education.


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## LongWalk

> I do not have any interest in having any more children.


I do not think you and your husband are going to get back together, but what if he said he wanted to try and have another child, with you?


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## so_conflicted

He would NEVER say that. He had a vasectomy because he doesn't want more children. He constantly brought up how happy he is that our kids are older and how exhausting young children are and that he's so glad to be done with that phase. 
I am positive he will not have any more children unless someone in his future already has some of her own that she brings to the relationship, which would be interesting. He's a great dad but can only handle other people's children is small doses.


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## LongWalk

I had forgotten about the vasectomy. Yes, he could not forge a stronger relationship with the OW because of that. Well, that is one positive aspect. You do not have to worry about him having children with another woman and spending money on them. Your children will remain his only offspring.


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## LongWalk

Did you find Machiavelli's analysis interesting? He predicted R would not happen based purely on biological facts. It is very cold to look at things like that but frighteningly accurate.


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## so_conflicted

I thought Mach's comments were interesting. However, sex has never been an issue for us. H used to comment about how good it was after being together for so long and how he probably got it more than most married men. The alpha issue is definitely present with us, but that also has an emotional component that is tied to his ego. That was more key than anything sexual. 

Today is feeling like another strong day so far. I still feel like D is the right option and that he isn't having any thoughts of coming back to me and doing the work necessary. I think I am finally starting to develop a trace of anger. I am looking forward to the future a little more and starting to envision it without H and not feeling devastated by those thoughts.

One thing that still stings is my naked finger. I often can't bare the look or feel of it. I've been wearing other rings on that finger just to soothe my pain, but at the same time I feel like I should leave my finger naked to show the world that I am moving on from him. Any tips on the ring issue? Not sure why it hurts to see my finger bare, but it does.


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## LongWalk

Hard situation but you are confronting it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio

so_conflicted said:


> . . . One thing that still stings is my naked finger. I often can't bare the look or feel of it. I've been wearing other rings on that finger just to soothe my pain, but at the same time I feel like I should leave my finger naked to show the world that I am moving on from him. Any tips on the ring issue? Not sure why it hurts to see my finger bare, but it does.


s_c, get yourself some really sexy gloves and a new wardrobe to match. Once you start getting "looks," you'll soon forget all about the missing ring.


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## Openminded

It was difficult when I took my ring off after all those years but I got over it. You will too. It's just another adjustment we have to make on the road to recovery.


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## so_conflicted

Today was a really good day, feeling comfortable with my new future. H did call to tell me that he is having all of his paycheck direct deposited into his personal account and will transfer over what I need. Also that he is not going to give me all of his bonus as he previously agreed, he said it would be 50/50. I reminded him that I am supporting 3 people here and he is supporting himself only without any expenses since he's living with his mother. He said that we could discuss the percentage but he was definitely keeping his share and wanted to use the $ to get a jump start on the bills he'd be taking.
So I got on the phone and am meeting with one of the lawyers I spoke to one the phone a month ago, next week. I called the other lawyer I spoke with, who seemed tougher (but also more expensive) but had to leave a message.
I am getting worried that he has all the control of the money and could leave us high and dry until I get temporary orders in place. Most bills (including the house) are in his name and he can't touch my measly paycheck, but he still could really make things hard for us.
I'm ready to start playing hardball now!


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## walkonmars

Now yer gettin'it!

His plan all along has been to smile on you face and say the right things but in the end, he has plans you know nothing about. Play your cards close to your vest. Oh, and be sure to act with confidence in his presence. 

NO CHIT CHAT. Be cordial but businesslike


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## so_conflicted

He's been pretty open and honest abut his plans, sometimes it feels like he's telling me just to gloat about the power he has because he makes 80% of our combined income. 
I think he's smart enough to not do anything too drastic for fear of getting screwed when we go to court, but then again I thought he was an honest faithful man. I am getting really anxious to get orders in place, his greatest fear in life is jail, so I know once there's an order he won't go against that.


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## LongWalk

Employ the shark. There is no need to show his wallet any mercy. Be polite yet distant. If this is a game if reproductive monopoly, you are forcing him to sell the houses and hotels. Let him pursue strange with earnings from the utilities.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## so_conflicted

I am actually excited to get D underway now that H is no longer feeling any trace of guilt and is only going to give the girls and I what he is required to give, when he's required to give it. He was being so generous before when he was feeling a little bit bad.

The male atty I'm meeting with next week represents my brother and my brother feels that he is aggressive, I didn't get that vibe on the phone. However he did sounds very well versed on D. Hopefully I'll get a better feel when we meet in person. He has a lower retainer and hourly rate.

The female atty I left the msg for is really tough, but a bit of a "paper mill" tends to go to the court for anything and everything she thinks there might be a shot at. Sometimes they stick. She is the atty my brother has been fighting against and she's gotten some pretty outlandish things through the system. I would love to retain her but I am fearful that she will go crazy and run up $20k+ in fees on me. I'm sure I am being naive, but does an atty have to get the clients approval before she files or prepares items on the clients behalf? I am just looking for a basic divorce from an atty who knows everything I am entitled to and will fight to get it for me if necessary. I really don't need her to get creative at my expense.

The girls and I are going on a road trip with my mom over the weekend. I am looking forward to the time away, the house is clean, my brother will come stay with the dogs... but we will be seeing family (my aunt, my mothers aunts and my cousin) and everyone is going to want to know where H is because we always did everything as a family. I think now that D is eminent I should just start telling people but I am dreading it. I worry that the looks of pity will bring me to tears every time I have to tell the story. These aren't close relatives, so I am debating whether I should even tell them at all.


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## alte Dame

Please tell them. Exposure is a very good thing. It's the truth after all.

And the dread that you feel about pity is unjustified, in my opinion. Don't mistake compassion, caring, support and indignation on your behalf for pity. People know who the bad actor is and people know that this can happen to anyone. You're the one who can hold her head up. Your H can't do that unless he actively lies to himself.


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## so_conflicted

I probably will tell them, not as exposure because they are not close relatives and hardly know H. The just know him as the nice friendly guy I married long ago. It won't affect him in any way that they know. In fact he will never even have the knowledge that they know. 
My aunt was cheated on by her husband. When my cousin was about 9 years old he came out and admitted that he had been having a long term A and had an 8 year old son from the relationship. My aunt and cousin were devastated, I remember a long term depression (like years) and my cousin not talking to her dad for a very long time. They will sympathize but I hope me telling them won't open old wounds.


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## karole

SC, you need to go with the shark lawyer. I have a feeling that your husband will not be very nice or very generous when it comes down to it. You can request in your divorce petition that your husband be responsible for your attorney's fees. Does not mean you would get it, but it never hurts to ask. Discuss it with the attorney. You need to prepare yourself to do whatever necessary to secure a future for you and your girls. Good luck to you!

Hope you have a great weekend with your family.


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## LongWalk

There aren't so many close relationships in modern society. People will be less interested in your life than you think. That is why marriage is so important and the disappointment so profound. I think people feel bad about it. They fall into three classes: those who have experienced it, will experience or those who will remain married and not all of those are happy either.

If your husband jacks you around too much, besides putting the lawyer on his butt, you can always surprize him as well.

Tell him you him you think you're pregnant, and then after after he starts stuttering, laugh and say only kidding. Maybe its not your style but it would fit with your new emotional state of breaking free.

Although you feel your salary is low, your work has worth. Don't belittle your profession even if society does. That is a mistake for which America is paying.


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## alte Dame

so_conflicted said:


> I probably will tell them, not as exposure because they are not close relatives and hardly know H. The just know him as the nice friendly guy I married long ago. It won't affect him in any way that they know. In fact he will never even have the knowledge that they know.
> My aunt was cheated on by her husband. When my cousin was about 9 years old he came out and admitted that he had been having a long term A and had an 8 year old son from the relationship. My aunt and cousin were devastated, I remember a long term depression (like years) and my cousin not talking to her dad for a very long time. They will sympathize but I hope me telling them won't open old wounds.


Ugh. What people do to the ones they say they love. Yes, I can see why you're hesitant. Maybe you can just tell them that your H has been having an A with a 23-yo and now you are looking at divorce & leave it at that. The basics and bare minimum. So sorry.


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## so_conflicted

I want the shark but coming up with the $5k up front is the problem. I don't have it, even when the car sells, I will only have a portion of it and the atty does not accept credit cards. My family doesn't have money to lend either.


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## LongWalk

Can you go to the bank? Do you have a 401 that you can use as collateral?


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## carmen ohio

so_conflicted said:


> . . . The male atty I'm meeting with next week represents my brother and my brother feels that he is aggressive, I didn't get that vibe on the phone. However he did sounds very well versed on D. Hopefully I'll get a better feel when we meet in person. *He has a lower retainer and hourly rate.*
> 
> The female atty I left the msg for is really tough, but a bit of a "paper mill" tends to go to the court for anything and everything she thinks there might be a shot at. Sometimes they stick. She is the atty my brother has been fighting against and she's gotten some pretty outlandish things through the system. I would love to retain her but* I am fearful that she will go crazy and run up $20k+ in fees on me. *I'm sure I am being naive, but *does an atty have to get the clients approval before she files or prepares items on the clients behalf?* I am just looking for a basic divorce from an atty who knows everything I am entitled to and will fight to get it for me if necessary. I really don't need her to get creative at my expense . . .





so_conflicted said:


> *I want the shark but coming up with the $5k up front is the problem.* I don't have it, even when the car sells, I will only have a portion of it and the atty does not accept credit cards. My family doesn't have money to lend either.


Dear s_c,

The level of an attorney's fees are not always a good indication of his or her professional competence. Moreover, "aggressiveness" is not necessarily something you should want from your lawyer.

Ideally, your lawyer should be (1) well-versed on the relevant law and local practices, (2) very familiar with court procedures and the judges, (3) someone who takes the time to listen to you to learn what you want, (4) able to advise you on what you can reasonably hope to get, (5) responsive to you and diligent in pursuing your interests (i.e., answers your calls promptly, gets things done when he or she promises to, doesn't ask for numerous hearing date extensions, comes up with creative solutions to problems in a timely manner, etc.) and (6) is an effective advocate in dealings with the other side's attorney and with the court.

A favorable personal recommendation from someone you trust is a good indication of a lawyer's abilities. Lawyers that operate a "paper mill" are generally to be avoided because it suggests less than individualized service.

In answer to your question, yes, your lawyer should not file anything unless he or she has your permission to do so. However, as a practical matter, since you are not an attorney, you will have to rely largely on your lawyer's advice as to what to file. If you're concerned about the cost, better to make a special fee arrangement, e.g., that the lawyer will prepare the papers for a set fee, that you will be charged no more than a specified amount for all work between filing and any hearings, that you will be charged a specified amount per court hearing, etc.

Finally, you say you don't have much money but I gather from some of your posts that this is because your WH is controlling the money. If the two of you have savings, then your attorney should be able to help you gain access to a portion of them for purposes of covering your legal fees. Any marital assets (e.g., savings accounts, stocks, real estate, etc.) belong equally to the both of you and your WH cannot restrict your access to these to prevent you from obtaining effective legal representation. Again, talk to your lawyer about this.

Hope this helps.


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## so_conflicted

Whoa, WH's mood swings are giving me whiplash! One minute he's threatening to have his paycheck go into his own acct and transfer over what we "need" and the next he is nice and wanting to talk through everything and be fair?!?

Had a great trip, exposed WH to everyone and got lots of love and support. Was able to put the whole A and looming D out of my mind for decent stretches of time which was AMAZING.

Called WH when I got back to discuss several items about the kids. He was friendly and kind and very curious about my life. He wanted to know who watched the dogs while we were gone and if I had told family (whom he NEVER ever sees, wouldn't recognize them if he tried) and offered to take a day off work so we could meet the buyer for the car. You all were right! Once I genuinely started to move on, he sensed it and it has changed him ever so slightly. I don't have any illusions that he has changed his mind about being on his own or being the kind of man I want and need. I just recognized the tiniest baby step toward realizing what he's giving up and that he no longer has the control to keep me as plan B. Now he's the one trying to put on a show...during our conversation he said "I actually thought about you today because I had to sign up for two different pot-lucks......" BS! we have been a couple for nearly 16 years! You couldn't go a day without thinking about me even if you tried! Our break-up is too new and our lives have been intertwined for too long for him to not think about me. Nice try, I don't believe you're as "moved-on" as you pretend to be. It was refreshing to catch him trying to act that way because I know it's so false. 
I am feeling more confident everyday about being on my own and that I will be ok without him. I meet with the male atty today and am hoping that will provide me with even more hope in going forward with the D.


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## LongWalk

Good for you SC! You know him well. If he turns over a new leaf, you'll know it when happens. No point in hoping for it. What will be will be.


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## so_conflicted

No longer hoping for a future with him. If he miraculously changes (which it would be a miracle based on everything he said and done over the last six weeks) he would have to spend major time and energy trying to convince me to try. 

Don't think that will happen so I'm going to just work on making my life as happy as it can be. Wish me luck at the atty office!


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## walkonmars

Good for you and good luck. 

Try to keep the chit-chat to the barest essentials. Kids, finances, legal issues. No more reminiscing about the old days etc. Just respond with "hmm" and change the topic to essentials or just tell him to call back when you have more time to talk (you never will). 

Don't be snide or vindictive. Be cordial, as you would with a grocery check-out clerk. He is no longer privy to your personal business.


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## cpacan

*Sv: Husband not sure I can move on after his affair*

Good to hear you are doing so well, SC. Stay strong.


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## highwood

so_conflicted said:


> Whoa, WH's mood swings are giving me whiplash! One minute he's threatening to have his paycheck go into his own acct and transfer over what we "need" and the next he is nice and wanting to talk through everything and be fair?!?
> 
> Had a great trip, exposed WH to everyone and got lots of love and support. Was able to put the whole A and looming D out of my mind for decent stretches of time which was AMAZING.
> 
> Called WH when I got back to discuss several items about the kids. He was friendly and kind and very curious about my life. He wanted to know who watched the dogs while we were gone and if I had told family (whom he NEVER ever sees, wouldn't recognize them if he tried) and offered to take a day off work so we could meet the buyer for the car. You all were right! Once I genuinely started to move on, he sensed it and it has changed him ever so slightly. I don't have any illusions that he has changed his mind about being on his own or being the kind of man I want and need. I just recognized the tiniest baby step toward realizing what he's giving up and that he no longer has the control to keep me as plan B. Now he's the one trying to put on a show...during our conversation he said "I actually thought about you today because I had to sign up for two different pot-lucks......" BS! we have been a couple for nearly 16 years! You couldn't go a day without thinking about me even if you tried! Our break-up is too new and our lives have been intertwined for too long for him to not think about me. Nice try, I don't believe you're as "moved-on" as you pretend to be. It was refreshing to catch him trying to act that way because I know it's so false.
> I am feeling more confident everyday about being on my own and that I will be ok without him. I meet with the male atty today and am hoping that will provide me with even more hope in going forward with the D.


I think this is a great example to show others who are dealing with it how the pain does slowly go away and you can move on. That is one thing I have come to realize is that when people divorce or a spouse dies unexpectedly and as painful as it is slowly it gets better and love will be found again! I see it all the time. What a difference in attitude from your first posts to now


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## so_conflicted

I liked the atty, he definitely knew his stuff and was confident that I would not only get child support but alimony for a set term with a weak possibility of permanent maint.
He also had a fee arrangement for an uncontested divorce that I can afford. He did say that if he contests things (which our situation is so typical there's not much to argue) we can try to get WH to be responsible for a large portion of my atty fees.

Now to sell that car tomorrow and get the ball rolling next week! Excited and scared but deep down know this is what I have to do, for myself and for my girls.


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## walkonmars

You are doing great! I knew you would. 

You have a good heart and it shows in your posts.


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## alte Dame

Good luck!

Confident, polite 180 with the WH. Forward march for you. I know it's hard, but you sound much better. Good for you!


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## LongWalk

SC, where are you?
Don't disappear on us.


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## so_conflicted

Wow! Time definitely got away from me. I thought I would check in and update for those of you who were so helpful to me in the early days. You all definitely know your stuff!

I really started focusing on healing and finding the positive in my life vs fixating on what I had lost. I started feeling really good and was having fun with friends. I even went on a few dates and one of them went really well. I started seeing him regularly and enjoying how if feels to be valued and special. At a banquet for our daughter WH and I were having a conversation and he asked if I was seeing anyone. I was honest and he asked a few questions about the new guy and I answered honestly. 
The next day WH shows up on my door step on his knees with roses crying hysterically. He said he realized his mistake and would do anything to fix what he had done. He would switch jobs do the NC and go to counseling etc. He begged for hours. 
I felt bad to see him in such pain because I remember being in his shoes a few months earlier, but nothing inside me wanted to hold him or comfort him or take him back. I was as kind as I could be but made it clear that I couldn't trust him and wouldn't be interested in spending my life being his warden.
That happened over a month ago and he has given up begging but still mentions that he would like to get back together if I'd give him the chance. I am just done, I forgiven and can be kind to him but I have no interest in a relationship with him.
Things with the new guy may have some influence but only in a positive way to show me that I can find someone who treats me the way I deserve. He seems to be a great guy and I enjoy our time together, but I have no expectations.


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## alte Dame

It's amazing what a little time away to work on ourselves does for us, isn't it? This is such a common story that it's sad. The broken trust makes you stronger and him weaker. The WS's don't understand this at the time - they feel that they have the upper hand and the world on a string. This allows them to continue to hurt the BS well after the A and Dday.

I'm so glad that you're feeling better and stronger. Has he stopped seeing the OW? It sounds like you don't care much either way. Where are you in your divorce?


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## Truthseeker1

so_conflicted said:


> Wow! Time definitely got away from me. I thought I would check in and update for those of you who were so helpful to me in the early days. You all definitely know your stuff!
> 
> I really started focusing on healing and finding the positive in my life vs fixating on what I had lost. I started feeling really good and was having fun with friends. I even went on a few dates and one of them went really well. I started seeing him regularly and enjoying how if feels to be valued and special. At a banquet for our daughter WH and I were having a conversation and he asked if I was seeing anyone. I was honest and he asked a few questions about the new guy and I answered honestly.
> The next day WH shows up on my door step on his knees with roses crying hysterically. He said he realized his mistake and would do anything to fix what he had done. He would switch jobs do the NC and go to counseling etc. He begged for hours.
> I felt bad to see him in such pain because I remember being in his shoes a few months earlier, but nothing inside me wanted to hold him or comfort him or take him back. I was as kind as I could be but made it clear that I couldn't trust him and wouldn't be interested in spending my life being his warden.
> That happened over a month ago and he has given up begging but still mentions that he would like to get back together if I'd give him the chance. I am just done, I forgiven and can be kind to him but I have no interest in a relationship with him.
> Things with the new guy may have some influence but only in a positive way *to show me that I can find someone who treats me the way I deserve*. He seems to be a great guy and I enjoy our time together, but I have no expectations.



The are words that a lot of BS should read over and over again...good luck on your new adventure.


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## so_conflicted

I filed for divorce the very beginning of July and it will be final mid-October. Things have been going smoothly for the most part. WH has held up to our agreement for maintenance until everything is final and has not hired an attorney for himself and paid half of my attorney fees.


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## just got it 55

just got it 55 said:


> Can he handle a 23 year old child with high maintenance ? I bet plenty she is very high That will ware out and old quick they can’t FVCK 24/7
> 
> Hang in there you will be in control soon just listen to the advice here


Glad to say I told :smthumbup:you so


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## LongWalk

You did a good job of getting your emotions under control. 

Remember when we talked about you wearing some perfume to catch your husband's attention? Well, it seems the best perfume was imaginary smell of you and another man making love.

You must admit that when he started questioning you about the relationship, you didn't exactly know how it would effect you to be open about it, but you sensed that telling him would not reopen your wounds. And with each question he asked you discovered your strength.

He wanted to know whether you were sleeping with the guy. The sexual jealousy part of it was bad for him. But he probably could not sleep all night, thinking that emotionally you were gone and he was replaceable.

Worst of all, since you were honest, you told him that you were not a young naive girl, and hence you were not heaping monstrous expectations on the new guy or relationship. Very healthy thinking on your part, but devastating for him because his rekindled unrequited love for you is burned hot and bright but it was just light shining in the cool darkness as far you were concerned. 

He probably realizes he'll never have a love like yours again, not at this point in life.

Are you still living in the same house? How are your children coping?


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## life101

so_conflicted said:


> Wow! Time definitely got away from me. I thought I would check in and update for those of you who were so helpful to me in the early days. You all definitely know your stuff!
> 
> I really started focusing on healing and finding the positive in my life vs fixating on what I had lost. I started feeling really good and was having fun with friends. I even went on a few dates and one of them went really well. I started seeing him regularly and enjoying how if feels to be valued and special. At a banquet for our daughter WH and I were having a conversation and he asked if I was seeing anyone. I was honest and he asked a few questions about the new guy and I answered honestly.
> The next day WH shows up on my door step on his knees with roses crying hysterically. He said he realized his mistake and would do anything to fix what he had done. He would switch jobs do the NC and go to counseling etc. He begged for hours.
> I felt bad to see him in such pain because I remember being in his shoes a few months earlier, but nothing inside me wanted to hold him or comfort him or take him back. I was as kind as I could be but made it clear that I couldn't trust him and wouldn't be interested in spending my life being his warden.
> That happened over a month ago and he has given up begging but still mentions that he would like to get back together if I'd give him the chance. I am just done, I forgiven and can be kind to him but I have no interest in a relationship with him.
> Things with the new guy may have some influence but only in a positive way to show me that I can find someone who treats me the way I deserve. He seems to be a great guy and I enjoy our time together, but I have no expectations.


Good job. Really proud of you as a BS. :smthumbup:


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## so_conflicted

Life has been really good. Not perfect, of course but I'm realistic ha ha.
My girls and I are still in the same house and should be able to stay here for the next several years. They are adjusting well, with a few steps back here and there. They are now willing to see their dad on his weekends, although they typically ask to cut it short and never request to see him. He hasn't made a considerable effort to see them either. He says it's because he doesn't want to force things, which could be true but I have to admit I tend to think it's his selfishness that determines his behavior.
I am still seeing the guy I met a few months back. He's a good guy and I have strong feelings for him but he has his own baggage. I never realized how much harder it would be to date at this point in my life. Everyone has lived so much and has had their own joys and struggles and heartaches that challenge future relationships. I still do not have any expectations for this relationship. I am completely willing to just let it take it's course. Although, since this is a safe place to confess my thoughts.... I do sometimes secretly wish/hope that he wants to marry me, not because I'm dying to get married again but because it would be nice to know that someone out there loves me that much that they would promise their life to me and for me to do the same.
My XWH has moved into a town home (vs. an apt) with his mom, the house is completely empty of his things. We have had our ups and downs but it has been peaceful for the most part. There have been a few lingering moments of pain but mainly just indifference toward him. 
I would like to say that I'm happier today than I was a year ago, but I don't know if that's true....I am happy despite how much my life has changed but I don't know that could go so far as to say happier. I think that will come in time as I grow in confidence that I can indeed handle life as a single mom.


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## alte Dame

Thanks for the positive update. I'm glad that things have settled down for you. I think the kind of validation you're talking about is very understandable & something we all feel.

Best of luck going forward & check in whenever the urge strikes.


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## LongWalk

I missed this update, but better late than never. I am happy that you managed to cut through the jungle grass to discover what had been hidden from you. Your husband was very superficial. I can understand him going for a 23-year-old woman. The young body and the naive conversations, it was all intoxicating. Like Coke to a 4 year old. It was a big ego boost.

But when he came down from the love buzz, why didn't your daughters come to mind? Even now he should be busting his butt to repair his relationship with them. Since you are indifferent to him, you probably would be happy to see him step up as a dad.

He sucks. You should tell him to work harder at it. 

Don't get married just for the sake of it. Examine the quality of the relationship. Keep that alive. Whether or not you have to marry is not so important. Does your boyfriend meet your daughters? Do they interact well?

Remember when you even considered wearing perfume to get your husband back? What a loser.


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## carpenoctem

yes. you are wearing a new perfume all right.

in the conventional sense, it is called *wisdom.* and it is really attractive.

best of luck.

*may beautiful things happen to you, lady.

if they don't, you already have acquired the wisdom to see beauty in the little things in life.*



you and your girls, will do fine. that's what my gut tells me.


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