# Emotional Affair and a Treatise in Meaning



## Physics

First, I would like to thank an innumerable number of people here for the lens they created through countless posts regarding both their own experiences and the advice and opinions they offer when others post, asking for advice. It’s the intellectual equivalent of crowdsourcing and it can be a very powerful tool to channel and direct the mind and emotions in ways that are helpful when looking for the light. 

I’m certain all of us here are intimately familiar with how powerful thoughts and emotions can be in the arena of marriage. In that same vein, these same forces that make marriage and love so profoundly deep and powerful, at least for those lucky enough to experience the depths and heights that a wonderful marriage can bring to life, can, if not harnessed, run away and cloud your thinking when something challenges the relationship. 

In an otherwise fairy tale nineteen year marriage to the most amazing wife in the world, blessed with two wonderful young children, we’ve recently been visited by what, for a time, cast a dark shadow, and here I am, the husband, looking into the state of mind that gave rise to a feeling of betrayal and to the words and actions themselves that animate these feelings. 

We all struggle to some degree, on occasion, to grasp the true meaning of words, and in that way I still struggle to find the proper meaning for where my wife’s mind was in what, using the bluntest of instruments, would be, at minimum, in my opinion, a nascent, budding emotional affair. Obviously, I wouldn’t be here, reaching out to total strangers for help understanding this if I wasn’t grappling with meaning. 

Having spent a great deal of time here on this forum these past few weeks, and having read from as many sources and experiences of members, I’ve come to understand a great deal and feel so much wiser. Still, I’m searching for more and want to find the best way to navigate these feelings. It’s truly a unique, first experience for me where I feel not the master of my thoughts and that’s quite difficult, for me, at least. Plainly spoken, these emotions consume the mind! When you believe you’ve begun to have them settle into a good place, a place where emotions aren’t so dominating, the cycle begins again and the struggle continues. This past night it was a dream, a damned dream that my wife hid something from me that destroyed my rest and left me unable to fall asleep again. Lack of sleep is also good fertilizer for negative emotions, I’ve found. Progress is always made in my mind, even though it may seem the same issues are circulating. Through these movements, we heal the mind and spirit, of this I am certain.

That, of course, doesn’t leave you much to talk about, right? With that I offer you readers some background, if I may. As I’d mentioned, I have, present tense, past tense and future, a great marriage, one certainly envied by many. My life flows through her and hers through mine. She is my everything, and that’s the way it should be. She would never intentionally cause me pain, but that’s also what makes this so damned difficult! I am in pain, and she played a part in that, even if at the time, she, herself was unaware of what this would become.

I desperately wanted to be able to carry all of this emotional pain and work through it, alone, but I couldn’t, and I’m still unsure if it would have been better if I’d been able to. It would come to pass that this has become a pain and struggle that both of us must work through. It became a thing, it became meaning, and I still can’t believe it was only my fertile mind and strong immune system over-reacting to what only I would perceive as a threat in the marriage space. 

Obviously we all have different thresholds for what would constitute some form of betrayal, some incursion by another person, another man or woman into a space that only we may share with our spouses in marriage. There are no universals, but there are common threads, themes, ideas around which we reason. 

With that I ask what is the best way to approach this to allow you people to see into our world a bit and offer some wisdom? The basic nuts and bolts of things as they stand are fairly commonplace, it would seem. My wife reconnects with a friend from back in high school, from some thirty or so years ago. They were very, very close throughout high school. Not boyfriend/girlfriend in the technical, sexual sense, but, knowing my wife, likely a stronger bond than many typical sexual high school romances. Ironically, it was for my birthday, where she wanted me and our kids to see some of the cool tech gear this friend was working on, that we all met at his office. My wife and he had only run into each other once in a blue moon at the grocery store or whatever, in the past. While the kids and I played with his “toys”, they were busy catching up, talking, for the hour or so we were there. 

As an aside, and to provide some possibly useful information, several months prior to this beginning, my wife lost her wonderful father quite suddenly, and she was no doubt still grieving to some degree. They were very close and we miss him very much. Coincidentally, her friend’s mother was dying of cancer, no doubt adding to his emotional burden. 

To make matters worse, three months after this initial meet up and a couple of months after their first three hour lunch, my wife’s mother was also diagnosed with terminal cancer. This was just this past spring and she passed away less than six weeks from diagnosis, one month or so after her friend’s mom had died. 

So, emotional stage setting now done, the fashion of most of these circumstances, even though they’ve run into each other randomly over the years and we all live in the same town, this meeting was a rekindling of their friendship, a positive thing. At least I would have thought. Text messaging between the two of them, sporadic at first, started immediately, but, in hindsight, immediately had an emotional charge. From conversations between my wife and I after that initial group meeting, her friend was at an apparently low point in his life. His marriage failed and ended in a nasty divorce many years back, his mother is dying, he’s lonely and his college age daughter is spending less and less time with him as her life evolves. It was obvious my wife felt terribly for him, really, to the point where she wanted to help him, but how? I don’t recall if it was after this initial meeting with him and our family, or after their first three hour lunch a couple months later, but she actually teared up a bit while talking about how bad she feels for him. She’s a very compassionate, empathetic person, which are wonderful qualities, but when in that same conversation she suggested we have him over to watch an episode of Walking Dead, in all honesty, it made me uncomfortable. Should it have? That never came to pass, but it stuck in my mind, a mental note of sorts. Strangely, the time we spent at his office he seemed anything but in a dark place. He was warm, engaging and quite full of positive energy. People, of course, have their private and public persona. 

I think both men and women have been conditioned to relegate these “uncomfortable” feelings generated when our spouse shows signs of emotional attachment out of the marriage into the “just feeling jealous” territory. We are supposed to trust our spouses, explicitly and implicitly. Where is the line crossed where the uncomfortable feelings become legitimate reasons to address the concern openly? Obviously, this would depend of the relationship and the understandings between spouses. Polyamory couples would have an entirely different understanding than a traditional marriage, and a husband or wife who rages at the thought of the other even looking at an attractive stranger would be at the other end of the spectrum. I suppose if both couples have that understanding, the relationship works and the feelings are legitimate and consistent with the framework and expectations of their marriage contract. 

Where does that leave us? Obviously there’s a spectrum of opinions here, but the best I can do is to give you a glimpse through their texts. The three hour lunches are a black hole. How did I come to get these texts? Well, about five months after their first lunch meeting, they met again for another lunch. Each of these, of course, I was invited to, but declined, not wanting to be getting in the way of them reminiscing about things and catching up. Best, I thought, to also not seem the jealous, untrusting type of husband, so I insisted she go alone. Reading back on one particular text to him after that initial group meet up, she made it clear that the next meeting she wanted to be just the two of them. Yes, could be a relatively insignificant off-the-cuff text/remark, but I believe that it was a window into her emotions and not an intentional effort to exclude me consciously. 

Well, as their three hour lunch at our favorite restaurant progresses, my efforts to text her updates on what I was doing and planning with the kids went unanswered. Initially I was mildly annoyed, no doubt compounded by that little gut feeling that her having a second, long lunch with another man, an ex boyfriend of a sort, was somewhat inappropriate. Multiple texts, calls, pings later, still can’t get her. I know what some of you are thinking. Zero percent chance, really, that much I’m certain. You see, my wife has this bad habit of politely turning the ringer off on her phone so it doesn’t interrupt. In her purse, she can’t feel it vibrate and she can’t hear it. Still, I can’t imagine going three hours myself without checking my phone, just to check it! She wouldn’t either, unless she was totally engrossed in a conversation, a three hour conversation.....with someone, a man, who isn’t me. Three hours is fertile time to talk about more than just trivial, social stuff and what happened in math class three decades ago! It has to be! So, in the midst of my stewing and texting, my texts are popping up on her iMessage at our computer. I click through to view all of her text strings within the app just to see if she had been texting anyhow else and why she would be missing my texts. Of course, near the top of the strings is the texting thread with her friend, which I open, and read, entirely from beginning to end. Needless to say, I was devastated and find many to be inappropriate, both from him and to him. Anyhow, after over three hours, I texted and then called the restaurant owner, a good friend of ours, to tell them to please have one of her staff tell my wife to turn her ringer on! She did, and my wife immediately texted me and apologized for turning her ringer off. Enough said about that and what transpired afterwards. What I’m wondering is how you would react to these texts, within your marriage, from your perspective, given the setting I’ve described. I’ve sanitized them for anything that would betray their anonymity, of course, so I’m not overstepping boundaries myself. I really see no other way to shed light into this as I feel I’m no longer making progress. I’m hoping for some perspective, I guess. Well, here goes. Jump in. Thanks in advance for your insights!

This after the first group/family meet up on 12/15:

12/15 6:13pm
(Friend) So good to see you today. Happy Birthday to (My name). I hope he enjoyed the behind-the-scene tour of my insanity. (SMILE BLUSHING EMOJI)
Your children are beautiful. I look forward to seeing them again soon.

Finally, I am so sorry to hear about your father. I know you were close- as I was with my dad. The trials of this time of our lives can leave us in an unfamiliar place. In a strange way, it is good to know that, as usual, we all have more in common than we think. I really just wanted to give you another big hug, just didn’t seem appropriate with the buzz of the Tesla coil and drone. 

I can’t wait to pick my little one up from school on Wednesday. And I hope you and I can find some more time to speak soon. Have a great evening. Stay Warm. (WINK with HEART KISSES Emoji)

12/16/18 1:05 am
(Wife)- I completely adore and miss you. And I think every time I’ve run into you the last several years, I remember why we were such close friends in high school, and I kick myself for not staying in closer touch after college. (My name) loved his visit with you- thank you so much for taking time out of what must be a crazy schedule to make his birthday special. (Thank you + HEART EYES EMOJI). (Names of our kids) said they definitely loved the Tesla coil the best. 

I totally agree that there is a strange comfort in knowing that others are going through the very same pain and struggle. Sending you huge hugs back and please tell your mom that I send my warmest regards- have only the fondest memories of our high school years together and hanging out at each other’s houses.....and Friendly’s  while our collective parents looked on with pride. 

Hope to meet your sweet girl soon, and I’d love to meet up for lunch or whatever, sometime after the holidays, just you and me, to catch up and just talk. Love to you and yours. (THREE WINK WITH HEART KISS EMOJIS)

12/16/18
(Friend)- Yes, I’d love to catch up, and thank you for the kind words and wishes. They mean a lot to me. Know I feel the same way, and look forward to those moments together, warmly catching up. Hopefully sooner rather than later while the weather is still cold. Peace to you and your family. Lots of love, (wife’s initial). ~M (FLOATING Hearts Emoji)

12/18
(Friend) -Merry Christmas, (Wife’s name). Have a safe and wonderful holiday. - M.

12/22 10:40am
Thanks (Friend)! Same to you! (Blushing Smile Emoji) How’s your mom doing? We (with my mom) were originally planning to go to SF on vacation next week but had to cancel because of mom’s GI problems have not improved. Honestly, I’m kind of thankful about canceling - I just want to camp at home and try to relax a little. (MASSAGE HEAD EMOJI)

(Friend) I know the feeling. Hanging out local this year as well. Hope your mom feels better. My mom is status quo, which basically she is comfortable and getting around a bit. She is a worrier, so minutia gets her nervous even though it may not be anything serious. 

(Wife). My mom is the opposite, hides things from the rest of us, then says “x has been hurting for a week, but I’m not a complainer, so no big deal. (FACE PALM MASSAGE HEAD EMOJI)

12/22/18
(Friend) if I don’t notice first, my mom probably wouldn’t say anything for a week either. Ugh. She’s chosen not to get treatment because she’s comfortable and there’s not much she can do that makes dealing with even little things a challenge. Hang in there, my friend. Give a holler should you ever want to talk. ~Mx 

(Wife). You too. 


1/5/19
(Friend) Happy new year to you and your family. Running to Chicago on Monday. Back on Wednesday. Still look forward to catching up with you. Mx

(Wife). Happy new year (M) and Happy Birthday (tomorrow). Is this 50?!? Can we do lunch next week? I can do any day except Wednesday, 1/9 Friday?
(Friend) Yes, 50 tomorrow. Ugh. Still have the maturity of about 14, so I should ask for your forgiveness ahead of time should I run astray. That said, Friday may be a possibility but I will not know for sure until I return to the office Thursday morning.

1/5/19 8:27pm
(Wife). Young at heart is the best way to be. (BLUSHING SMILE EMOJI) No prob, I’ll pencil it in. Totally fine to cancel up to the last minute, I work from home......

1/11/19 9:01am
(Wife) Hi (Friend)! I’m so sorry, but I can’t make lunch today. Have to manage mom this morning, afternoon. Not even sure you made it home in one piece after your ordeal. . I can do lunch any day next week except Wednesday. Let me know what your schedule is looking like. (HEART EYES EMOJI)

1/11/19 11:30am 
(Friend) Made it home late. Still catching up. Speak soon.

1/14/19 9:18pm
(Friend) Catching up this week. Are you around next? Have to drive (C) (* C is Friend’s daughter, from a prior marriage) back to school on Saturday. Back after that. Look forward to seeing you. Mx

1/14/19 10:39 pm
(Wife). Yup, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday all good for lunch next week. By the way, (husband) is taking the kids to go see the Bridge demolition tomorrow morning. I can’t go. Have to take mom to the doctor. Sounds fun tho. 🙂

1/17/19 3:47pm
(Friend) I watched it on a friend’s video. Always fun to see something blown up. Definitely more valuable than school. I’ve been busy with my mom too. Hang in there. I think of you often. 

1/18/19 11:30am
(Wife). Trying my hardest. It’s been a rough week. 

1/18/19
(Friend) know the feeling. Halfway to (city). Home late tonight. 

1/19/19
(Friend) The little one is back at school safe and sound. Hope you’re staying warm and cozy. See you soon.

2/24/19
(Friend) Miss you. All too easy to get lost in the challenges of the everyday. Would love to catch when you have a few minutes. You’ve been in my thoughts often. I hope your mom is feeling ok.

2/24/19 11:41pm
(Wife)Miss you too! I know exactly how you feel getting lost in the day. Heading to bed now but will check in with you tomorrow to try and get us back on the calendar. Good night. (BLUSHING SMILE EMOJI)

2/25/19 10:19am
(Wife). Free for coffee or lunch this Thursday or Friday?

(Friend) Lunch, Thursday?

(Wife) Yes, you pick the spot. Local would be good. Rather maximize talk time.

2/25/19 (Friend) How about (restaurant)?

(Wife). Sure, never been there. Casual? Business casual?

(Friend) Probably business casual, but I go in jeans and polo. Good food. Quiet.

(Wife) Perfect, 12:30?

(Friend) Perfect, looking forward. 

(Wife). Me too! (BLUSHING SMILE EMOJI)

*Wife and Friend have three hour lunch together* 

2/28/19 4:26pm
(Wife) SO good to catch up with you today. (BLUSHING SMILE EMOJI)
If you ever need an ear to help with your mom’s situation, please don’t hesitate to reach out. Looking forward to having you over soon, maybe with dinner via “fresh go-go”

2/28/19 5:43pm
(Friend) I really enjoyed catching up with you as well. I missed you and felt it strongly this afternoon. I was actually thinking about what to write to you. These are emotional times for both of us and I often find that such strong feelings can easily be displaced into those around us- especially those whom we trust and respect. With that, I hope you understand that I offer the following with the same respect and pure intentions. You are beautiful and I could have hugged you a hundred times today. I hope that makes some sense.  look forward to seeing you again soon. ~M

2/28/19 9:36 pm
(Friend) I hope my comments do not make you uncomfortable. If so, I apologize. There is no subtly hidden message. Just that I’m so thankful for reconnecting with you and really appreciate the opportunity to talk. It’s an emotional time, and mine tend, all too often, to spill out all over the place- not just where, perhaps, they more functionally belong. Then, after having proper “function” best into me for so many years, I’ve learned its definitely worth setting aside some time for pure form. I’m so happy to have shared the rediscovery of yours after so much time. Hope to talk to you soon- welcome of course, the kids and (my name). Great to see you, hang in there, sweet dreams. -M.

2/28/19 (9:15pm)
(Wife) OMG, not uncomfortable at all. In fact, I read your lovely text earlier but didn’t have a chance to reply and was worried you’d be worried that I was uncomfortable if I took too long to reply LOL. The kids just went to bed (they seem to be coming down with something, ugh) and I literally just sat down to reply to you when your second text came through. I completely understand where your heart is and I was honestly going to say the same thing you just said. I’m so thankful to have reconnected with you, especially during this sensitive time for both of us. Your friendship always meant a great deal to me and does even more now. I’m sure we’ll both continue to get caught up in our busy lives, but I hope we’ll both find the time to reconnect as often as possible as we did today. Sending you hundreds of hugs back. (BLUSHING SMILE EMOJI)

3/1/19 9:41 am
(Friend). I’m glad. Please call me should you need anything. In the meantime, know you are in my thoughts. (KISS WINK EMOJI)

3/12/19 9:46 pm
(Friend) Hope you’re finding a little peace. Know that you are in my thoughts. Sweet dreams. (BLUSHING SMILE EMOJI)

3/13/19 7:19 pm
(Wife) crazy early release from school, so no peace today. (MASSAGE HEAD EMOJI) Things with mom are stable, which is a good thing, but our lifestyles are so different, which makes the day to day routine challenging at times. Very trivial stuff, especially compared to what you’re going through right now. How’s your mom holding up? And you?

3/13/19 9:27pm
(Friend) Slow to no slide. She is comfortable, but getting weaker, slowly. At least I can step away - in person, if not in thought- each night. And, even the best kids have their moments. Though I’d trade for them in a heartbeat. Quiet house feels strange. Daughter at Disney world for spring break. 

Let me know if you ever want to break the routine. A daze of routine here as well.
“Good night and good luck” Edward R. Murrow LOL.
Okay, for real this time. “Now not day only shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away. J.R.R. Tolkien 

3/14/19 11:06am
(Wife) totally understand. It’s so hard to work sometimes when the house is noisy, but then I hate it when my family is not around me, making noise. 

I’m glad to hear your mom is comfortable, at least in the relative sense. Keep me posted on her condition, and let me know if I can help with anything. 

3/14/19 
(Friend) Same here. Look forward to seeing you again.

3/23/19 1:34pm
(Friend) Happy Birthday sweetheart! Love you! (KISSING WINKING HEART EMOJI)

3/23/19 3:40 
(Wife) Thank you!!! (THANK YOU + SMILE Emoji)

3/29/19 12:23am
(Wife) I honestly don’t know how to tell you this other than coming out and saying it plainly- I am in complete shock, but my mom
was just diagnosed with stage IV pancreatic cancer. This past Sunday she seemed kind of jaundiced, so we took her to the doctor on Monday. After bloodwork and CT scan, we were told the news on Tuesday. The tumor created a blockage in the bile duct, so we had a stent put in today. I am actually writing you here from the hospital, as we are staying overnight for observation. She is actually in great spirits, viewing the whole thing as a gift since all she’s been wishing for these past 6 months has been to be reunited with my father. I was crushed by the news at first, but am mostly at peace with it. It’s all very surreal, to the point where I’m really wondering if my dad is calling for her. Anyhow, I hope that you’re managing ok and that your mom is still “comfortable” all things considered. We should be back home tomorrow. Will try and connect with you again the next few days.

3/29/19 9:00am
(Friend)
I almost can’t believe what I’m reading. My mother entered the hospital with similar symptoms. Same diagnosis and had a stent put in. The stent made her more comfortable. She was at peace as well, my cousin telling me she missed my dad. My mom took the news similarly, told me she was not sad.

I have no words except that I am here. 
I don’t mind talking if you feel like it. Let me offer hope for peace for you, your mom and your family.
Not sure if it helps, and I’m pretty skeptical on the whole afterlife thing, but, for what it’s worth, my mom is convinced my father is watching over her and waiting for her. She had talked about it for years. She is not religious at all. Notwithstanding, of this she seems sure.
Take care of yourself. I’ve found that’s hard to do during these times. You and your mom
are in my thoughts. Reach out anytime. (WINKING KISSES EMOJI)

3/29/19 4:22pm

(Wife). Got your message, thank you (THANK YOU EMOJI) Both brothers in town this weekend w/ family. Will be in touch again soon. (FLOATING HEARTS EMOJI)

(Friend) No prob, take care of yourself I’m sure it will be good to have everyone together. You know where to find me.

4/6/19 10:16 pm
(Friend) Checking in to see how you are. You and your mom are in my thoughts. 

4/7/19 1:34 am
(Wife) So sweet of you to check in. Just taking things one day at a time. She has no pain or discomfort, but she is definitely slower and weaker than before. Now I completely understand your previous description of how you were managing your mom every day. How is she doing?

4/7/19 2:35 pm
(Friend) Pretty much the same. A little bit weaker, but not suffering. Let me know if you would like to talk. Remember to take care of yourself. It’s hard at times like this. L, M 

4/7/19 5:36pm
(Wife). I know it. Doing my best to get as much sleep as possible whenever possible. Feeling physically and emotionally exhausted these days. Hope you are hanging in there too.

4/7/19 8:01pm
(Friend) Tired today. Just got home. Sleep tight. You are in my thoughts. 

4/17/19 
Friend announces the passing of his mother in an announcement written for all friends and family. 

4/17/19
(Wife) I just tried calling your cell, but got your VM. I was so sad to get your text, it hit me like a ton of bricks this morning. Obviously I knew this would come at some point soon, but I guess it’s really never really real until you see or hear the actual words. My heart is SO with you right now. I will do my best to drop by your home reception tomorrow night to give you a huge hug. Unpredictable, depending on how my mom is doing, but I’ll definitely try to get there. Sending you love and hugs and all the strength I can muster. 

(Friend) I understand. Thank you for all your kind words. I’m here for you as well. Nothing prepares you, but if you want to talk, I will be here. Please wish your mom well. It’s different for everyone and your mom may not want to talk about it, but for your peace of mind, my mom did not suffer and seemed at piece to the end. Love you.

4/18/19 11:03am
(Wife). Thinking of you a lot today. I don’t know how you managed this situation by yourself, but know that you are not alone. I am fully there with you in spirit. I am not going to make it to your house this evening, as I am at the hospital with mom, arrived in ER last night and staying at least for one more night. She had some cognitive disorientation that was truly scary and rang the alarm bell for (husband) and I that we have hit the max limit of our ability to care for her by ourselves, especially with our children at home. From here, we will likely head to some kind of hospice facility. No need to respond right now, I know you’ve got a lot going on today. Just know that I am here, marveling at your strength, sending you nonstop hugs and prayers and love. 

4/20/19 12:23pm
(Wife). Hope you’re doing ok. Maybe even doing something just for you this weekend. (BLUSHING SMILE EMOJI) Let me know when you have some time to chat on the phone. We are still camped out at the hospital, probably discharging on Monday. Have to make some decisions on palliative/hospice care, home vs facility. Would love to get your advice. 

4/20/19 6:41pm

(Friend) Hey (wife’s name). Thank you for such kind words and know that I remain here for you, for anything, as well. I think one of the few good things to come from situations like these is that they remind us, we are not alone. Sure, your family is there, but sometimes it is easy to forget that you can reach outside this inner circle to close friends and loved ones. I don’t call on this network often but am always reassured when I do. Sometimes for just tiny things and sometimes for more. Sometimes very openly and sometimes privately. 

I will be happy to talk to you about your mom and some of the decisions she will have to make. I am driving (daughter) back to (city) tomorrow. We can speak while I’m driving home or anytime Monday. Let me know what works for you. Best to you and your mom. My thoughts are with both of you. M <3

4/20/19 10/30pm

(Wife) It would be great if we could speak tomorrow as we have some decisions to make rather quickly. Please text me when you know what time you’re heading home from (city) and we can connect. Thx (M). 🙏🏻😊

4/21/19 5:46pm
(Friend) Hey (wife’s name). Driving. I’m leaving (city) now. Have to drive to a large dead spot so I can call you at 7:30. 

(Wife ). Sure, my cell is fine, but easier to talk when you get home? 

(Friend) Hi (wife’s name). I got your message. I’ll call you when I get home around 9 9:30.

(Wife). Sounds good.

4/21/19 9:32pm
(Friend) just got home. Give me a call when you are free at my home number.

4/22/19 8:41am
(Friend) Ping me anytime should you want to chat. ~M

(Wife) Thank you, and thank you very much again for last night. A lot to absorb for sure. Everything that has happened the last several months has certainly prompted a lot of reflection about life and the way things play out that none of us can truly understand or explain. When we were hanging out in high school just doing our thing, who knew that at least with respect to our moms would be such parallel universes. Imagine if my mom ends up going to hospice and getting the same room your mom had. Crazy. IDK I think sitting around in a hospital room killing time for days does this to a person. (BLUSHING SMILE EMOJI) ttys

(Friend) Even if your mom decides to remain at home, I would speak with (name) at Hospice house. They are much more knowledgeable regarding the situation. I think she may be able to offer more clarity about what options you and your mom have. 

(Wife) OK, got it. (THUMBS UP EMOJI)

4/23/19 9:44am
(Wife) Just FYI, I met with (name) yesterday and also (name). The setup is phenomenal and OMG they LOVE you and your mom. Hopefully discharging from hospital and heading to (facility) for short-term rehab for couple days. Talk soon. (THANK YOU + BLUSHING SMILE EMOJI)

(Friend) I’m glad. They are good, dedicated people. Ping me anytime you would like to talk or if I can help you in any way. Best to you and your mom.

(Wife). Thanks (M) (MULTIPLE THANK YOU EMOJI)

5/8/19 12:13pm
(Friend) (wife’s name) how are you doing? Just wanted you to know that I’m thinking of you and your mom. (BIG RED HEART EMOJI)
Please let me know if you need anything or just want to talk.

(Wife) OMG, you have uncanny timing. I just sent to some of my mom’s friends: (long, beautifully written announcement of her mom’s passing)
(Wife) Would love to catch up with you very soon, likely after the service/burial as family are in town right now. Much love to you and a million thanks for all the guidance. (THANK YOU + Floating Hearts Emoji)


(Friend) Oh, I’m sorry (wife’s name). I felt I needed to write you now. I’m at work and my thoughts of you were suddenly very strong.
My mom was very private as well, with similar wishes. Please know that I am here and can help should you need anything. I know the next few days will be difficult- both emotionally as well as logistically- strange bedfellows, indeed. The feelings take time to surface and my experience is that they bubble up at unexpected moments. I think this is the way it’s supposed to be. You know I am not a religious person, but the nature of our time together is strongly bound to loss. It is part of all of us and something worth acknowledging, no matter how difficult. None of your mom’s gifts to you and the people she touched travel with her. They are part of you and will be forever and ever. I am still discovering some of my mom even now. I think you will as well. Make sure when the time is right, you spend some time in peace, no matter how brief. I found that is where many of these lessons reside. My experience is that they do not fade with time and that there is no rush.

5/12/19 
(Friend) Happy Mother’s Day, (wife’s name). I’m quite sure your mother is very proud of you. I hope you find some peace today. L,M

5/12/19
(Wife) Thank you, (M). (Floating Heart Emoji) It’s been amazing having you by our side these past several months. I never used to believe in “support groups” but it’s been comforting knowing that someone, especially a trusted friend, who’d just been through the same experience, was there for us. Also received a very sweet text message from (another friend) Thank you for sharing the news with him. Hope you are holding up today- I’m certain your mom is very proud of you as well. (Blushing Smile + Floating Heart Emoji)

6/21/19 7:17am
(Friend) (wife’s name), it’s been a while and I’m just checking in to see how you are doing. I hope you’re ok and finding your way forward. Let me know if you would like to talk. Thinking about you. Love, (M) 

6/24/19 6:02pm
(Wife). Hi (M) We’re good, thanks so much for checking in. It’s been a whirlwind of activity the last month, with mom’s arrangements, notifying her friends, (she has a lot of them and they all like to talk on the phone) catching up with work and (our son’s) graduation from elementary school. We just finished the last activities and now we’re packing for a desperately needed week’s vacation. When we return, I’d love to have you over to just hang out and relax. How are you doing? I hope you’re taking the time to heal too. Any plans for the summer. 

6/25/19 2:04pm
(Friend) Glad you’re alright. I’m ok. Good to have (daughter) home from college although she has been busy. Working my way through probate and busy at work. Otherwise, trying hard to keep life simple for a few months. Have a safe and well deserved vacation. I’m sure all of you could use it. Look forward to seeing you when you get back. MxO

8/8/19
(Wife) Hi (M)! Are you free at all for lunch next week?

8/8/19 7:20pm
(Friend) Definitely!

8/23/19 9:41am
(Friend) Hey, my friend. I hope you are doing ok. I miss you and look forward to getting together. I was going to say the past week was difficult, but, then, you know, it’s a sliding scale. Let me know when you might have some time to get together. (Daughter) just went back to (college) so you definitely have a busier schedule than I do. M (Big Red Heart Emoji)

(Wife). OMG, your ears must have been buzzing. Was literally thinking about you about 10 minutes ago. Last week got crazy so I couldn’t pull it together for lunch. You free for lunch today?

(Friend) unfortunately today is the only day I can’t do.  I have a lunchtime meeting at work. Usually Fridays are good, as are weekends as well. 

(Wife) let me check on tomorrow.

(Friend) Okay 

8/23/19 11:19am
(Wife ) Tomorrow works for me if good for you. Ever been to (restaurant) near (restaurant)?

(Friend). Nope, but sounds good. I’m free anytime. 

(Wife) 1pm?

(Friend) perfect. Can’t wait to see you!

(Wife). Awesome! See you then! (Blushing Smile Emoji)

*3 1/2 hour lunch* 

8/24/19 4:30 pm (This written minutes after my wife texted that she’s on her way home, likely written from his car)
(Friend). Thank you so much for lunch. And thank (husband’s) name for sharing you. 

Um, that came out wrong.  (WINKING HEART KISSES EMOJI) 

Seriously, though, the time we talk really means a lot to me. Something very treasured these days. 

(Wife) LOL  I know what you meant! I completely agree, definitely feeling a little lost these days, but just trying to move forward a day at a time. Stay strong, and please don’t hesitate to touch base anytime. 

*Wife and Friend make plans via group text to meet up at a get together hosted at a mutual high school friend’s parent’s house* 

8/26/19 8:45pm
(Friend) You better come, sweetheart! Can carpool if you don’t bring the fam. Mx

(Friend) I hate group texts. Now my phone will beep every time someone texts (mutual old
high school friend who is having a party). Is that mental? Don’t care 

(Wife) LOL, totally know what you mean. I’ll definitely go. Still trying to figure out the kid situation....

(Wife) Hi (M)! I’m going to be running around a bit before (mutual high school friend’s) thing tonight, so I’ll probably just meet you there instead of carpooling. Promise I’ll be there tho! (handshake emoji + 

(Friend). No prob. Actually, I’m going to be stuck at the office until last minute. I’ll probably run home and shower and head over. (BIG Red Heart Emoji)

(Wife) Perfect, (OK sign Emoji) see you there.

(Friend) Saturday, 8/31/2019
Yesterday was fun catching up. I still enjoy our time together the best.


----------



## skerzoid

It probably ain't there yet but you can see where its headed. It's becoming an emotional affair and they are dating. It will start turning physical eventually. 

If you confront now, she will probably deny. "He's just a close friend." That is the usual excuse. Do not reveal your sources at any time. It will go farther underground.

When you confront, have everything written down that you want to say so that emotion does not distract you. 

Read "Not Just Friends": https://www.shirleyglass.com

We have seen affairs start this way so many times. It's the slippery slope your wife thinks she has handled. 

You are right to be concerned especially with "Sweetheart" thrown in those messages every once in a while.


----------



## sunsetmist

Wondering how she would truly feel if this were you and your female friend? You are wise to recognize the growing EA. 

She sounds like a compassionate soul and will deny it is a problem. However, they are dating and I agree habitual closeness has grown beyond healthy boundaries. 

You and she may need an outside--third party--like a Marriage Counselor--to balance this unacceptable situation. She is doing him no favor by letting him incorporate her into his life. Perhaps he needs a trained grief counselor or pastor to help with coping mechanisms and to remove dangerous emotional attachment.


----------



## MEM2020

A couple suggestions.

One - embrace reality. Reality is your only friend in this situation. 
Two - Your wife may have a wonderful spirit - however it IS housed inside a very hungry human chassis. 

She’s in love with him and not platonically. The very passionate talk of hugging - is merely foreplay or a sort. 

There are lots of ‘tells’ but the biggest were their desire to meet in private and the rapid discussion of the desire for extended physical contact. 

You need to understand that your communication style - won’t work at all for this type situation. 

You need to learn to say what’s true without wrapping it in hundreds or thousands of words of commentary. If it was me, I’d say:

Wife, I never thought about how fast people fall in love, til I saw you two doing it with each other. 

Then SHUT UP and let her talk. Do not tell her how you feel - she isn’t stupid and will instantly understand. 

You need to find out how SHE feels. She may already be gone. I’m not suggesting they’ve even kissed. I doubt they have. 

But if she swears this is all innocent, just do this. In a soft voice say: pupil dilation is involuntary, then lock eye contact and gently put your hands on her shoulders and ask: have you fantasized kissing him, or having sex with him? 

And watch her pupil size while asking and while she answers. 

And FWIW - the angrier she gets the guiltier she is.....






Physics said:


> First, I would like to thank an innumerable number of people here for the lens they created through countless posts regarding both their own experiences and the advice and opinions they offer when others post, asking for advice. It’s the intellectual equivalent of crowdsourcing and it can be a very powerful tool to channel and direct the mind and emotions in ways that are helpful when looking for the light. I’m certain all of us here are intimately familiar with how powerful thoughts and emotions can be in the arena of marriage. In that same vein, these same forces that make marriage and love so profoundly deep and powerful, at least for those lucky enough to experience the depths and heights that a wonderful marriage can bring to life, can, if not harnessed, run away and cloud your thinking when something challenges the relationship.
> In an otherwise fairy tale nineteen year marriage to the most amazing wife in the world, blessed with two wonderful young children, we’ve recently been visited by what, for a time, cast a dark shadow, and here I am, the husband, looking into the state of mind that gave rise to a feeling of betrayal and to the words and actions themselves that animate these feelings. We all struggle to some degree, on occasion, to grasp the true meaning of words and in that way I still struggle to find the proper meaning for where my wife’s mind was in what, using the bluntest of instruments, would be, at minimum, in my opinion, a nascent, budding emotional affair. Obviously, I wouldn’t be here, reaching out to total strangers for help understanding this if I wasn’t grappling with meaning.
> Having spent a great deal of time here on this forum these past few weeks, and having read from as many sources and experiences of members, I’ve come to understand a great deal and feel so much wiser. Still, I’m searching for more and want to find the best way to navigate these feelings. It’s truly a unique, first experience for me where I feel not the master of my thoughts and that’s quite difficult, for me, at least. Plainly spoken, these emotions consume the mind! When you believe you’ve begun to have them settle into a good place, a place where emotions aren’t so dominating, the cycle begins again and the struggle continues. This past night it was a dream, a damned dream that my wife hid something from me that destroyed my rest and left me unable to fall asleep again. Lack of sleep is also good fertilizer for negative emotions, I’ve found. Progress is always made in my mind, even though it may seem the same issues are circulating. Through these movements, we heal the mind and spirit, of this I am certain.
> That, of course, doesn’t leave you much to talk about, right? With that I offer you readers some background, if I may. As I’d mentioned, I have, present tense, past tense and future, a great marriage, one certainly envied by many. My life flows through her and hers through mine. She is my everything, and that’s the way it should be. She would never intentionally cause me pain, but that’s also what makes this so damned difficult! I am in pain, and she played a part in that, even if at the time, she, herself unaware of what it would mean. I desperately wanted to be able to carry all of this emotional pain and work through it, alone, but I couldn’t, and I’m still unsure if it would have been better if I’d been able to. It would come to pass that this has become a pain and struggle that both of us must work through. It became a thing, it became meaning, and I can’t believe it was only my fertile mind and strong immune system over-reacting to what only I would perceive as a threat in the marriage space. Obviously we all have different thresholds for what would constitute some form of betrayal, some incursion by another person, another man or woman into a space that only we may share with our spouses in marriage. There are no universals, but there are common threads, themes, ideas around which we reason.
> With that I ask what is the best way to approach this to allow you people to see into our world a bit and offer some wisdom? The basic nuts and bolts of things as they stand are fairly commonplace, it would seem. My wife reconnects with a friend from back in high school, from some thirty or so years ago. They were very, very close throughout high school. Not boyfriend/girlfriend in the technical, sexual sense, but, knowing my wife, likely a stronger bond than many typical sexual high school romances. Ironically, it was for my birthday, where she wanted me and our kids to see some of the cool tech gear this friend was working on, that we all met at his office. My wife and he had only run into each other once in a blue moon at the grocery store or whatever, in the past. While the kids and I played with his “toys”, they were busy catching up, talking, for the hour or so we were there.
> As an aside, and to provide some possibly useful information, several months prior, my wife lost her wonderful father quite suddenly, and she was no doubt still grieving to some degree. They were very close and we miss him very much. Coincidentally, her friend’s mother was dying of cancer, no doubt adding to his emotional burden. To make matters worse, three months after this initial meet up and a couple of months after their first three hour lunch, my wife’s mother was also diagnosed with terminal cancer. This was just this past spring and she passed away less than six weeks from diagnosis, one month or so after her friend’s mom had died.
> So, emotional stage setting now done, the fashion of most of these circumstances, even though they’ve run into each other randomly over the years and we all live in the same town, this meeting was a rekindling of their friendship, a positive thing. At least I would have thought. Text messaging between the two of them, sporadic at first, started immediately, but, in hindsight, immediately had an emotional charge that, when I discovered them much later, made me uncomfortable. From conversations between my wife and I after that initial group meeting, her friend was at an apparently low point in his life. His marriage failed and ended in a nasty divorce several years back, his mother is dying, he’s lonely and his college age daughter is spending less and less time with him as her life evolves. It was obvious my wife felt terribly for him, really, to the point where she wanted to help him, but how? I don’t recall if it was after this initial meeting with him and our family, or after their first three hour lunch a couple months later, but she actually teared up a bit while talking about how bad she feels for him. She’s a very compassionate, empathetic person, which are wonderful qualities, but when in that same conversation she suggested we have him over to watch an episode of Walking Dead, in all honesty, it made me uncomfortable. Should it have? That never came to pass, but it stuck in my mind, a mental note of sorts. Strangely, the time we spent at his office he seemed anything but in a dark place. He was warm, engaging and quite full of positive energy. People, of course, have their private and public persona.
> I think both men and women have been conditioned to relegate these “uncomfortable” feelings generated when our spouse shows signs of emotional attachment out of the marriage into the “just feeling jealous” territory. We are supposed to trust our spouses, explicitly and implicitly. Where is the line crossed where the uncomfortable feelings become legitimate reasons to address the concern openly? Obviously, this would depend of the relationship and the understandings between spouses. Polyamory couples would have an entirely different understanding than a traditional marriage, and a husband or wife who rages at the thought of the other even looking at an attractive stranger would be at the other end of the spectrum. I suppose if both couples have that understanding, the relationship works and the feelings are legitimate and consistent with the framework and expectations of their marriage contract.
> Where does that leave us? Obviously there’s a spectrum of opinions here, but the best I can do is to give you a glimpse through their texts. The three hour lunches are a black hole. How did I come to get these texts? Well, about five months after their first lunch meeting, they met again for another lunch. Each of these, of course, I was invited to, but declined, not wanting to be getting in the way of them reminiscing about things and catching up. Best, I thought, to also not seem the jealous, untrusting type of husband, so I insisted she go alone. Reading back on one particular text to him after that initial group meet up, she made it clear that the next meeting she wanted to be just the two of them. Yes, could be a relatively insignificant off-the-cuff text/remark, but I believe that it was a window into her emotions and not an intentional effort to exclude me consciously.
> Well, as their three hour lunch at our favorite restaurant progresses, my efforts to text her updates on what I was doing and planning with the kids went unanswered. Initially I was mildly annoyed, no doubt compounded by that little gut feeling that her having a second, long lunch with another man, an ex boyfriend of a sort, was somewhat inappropriate. Multiple texts, calls, pings later, still can’t get her. I know what some of you are thinking. Zero percent chance, really, that much I’m certain. You see, my wife has this bad habit of politely turning the ringer off on her phone so it doesn’t interrupt. In her purse, she can’t feel it vibrate and she can’t hear it. Still, I can’t imagine going three hours myself without checking my phone, just to check it! She wouldn’t either, unless she was totally engrossed in a conversation, a three hour conversation.....with someone, a man, who isn’t me. Three hours is fertile time to talk about more than just trivial, social stuff and what happened in math class three decades ago! It has to be! So, in the midst of my stewing and texting, my texts are popping up on her iMessage at our computer. I click through to view all of her text strings within the app just to see if she had been texting anyhow else and why she would be missing my texts. Of course, near the top of the strings is the texting thread with her friend, which I open, and read, entirely from beginning to end. Needless to say, I was concerned and find many to be inappropriate, both from him and to him. Anyhow, after over three hours, I texted and then called the restaurant owner, a good friend of ours, to tell them to please have one of her staff tell my wife to turn her ringer on! She did, and my wife immediately texted me and apologized for turning her ringer off. Enough said about that and what transpired afterwards. What I’m wondering is how you would react to these texts, within your marriage, from your perspective, given the setting I’ve described. I’ve sanitized them for anything that would betray their anonymity, of course, so I’m not overstepping boundaries myself. I really see no other way to shed light into this as I feel I’m no longer making progress. I’m hoping for some perspective, I guess. Well, here goes. Jump in. Thanks in advance for your insights!
> 
> This after the first group/family meet up on 12/15:
> 
> 12/15 6:13pm
> (Friend) So good to see you today. Happy Birthday to (My name). I hope he enjoyed the behind-the-scene tour of my insanity. 😊
> Your children are beautiful. I look forward to seeing them again soon.
> Finally, I am so sorry to hear about your father. I know you were close- as I was with my dad. The trials of this time of our lives can leave us in an unfamiliar place. In a strange way, it is good to know that, as usual, we all have more in common than we think. I really just wanted to give you another big hug, just didn’t seem appropriate with the buzz of the Tesla coil and drone.
> I can’t wait to pick my little one up from school on Wednesday. And I hope you and I can find some more time to speak soon. Have a great evening. Stay Warm. 😘
> 
> 12/16/18 1:05 am
> 
> (Wife)- I completely adore and miss you. And I think every time I’ve run into you the last several years, I remember why we were such close friends in high school, and I kick myself for not staying in closer touch after college. (My name) loved his visit with you- thank you so much for taking time out of what must be a crazy schedule to make his birthday special. 🙏🏻 😍. (Names of our kids) said they definitely loved the Tesla coil the best. 👍
> I totally agree that there is a strange comfort in knowing that others are going through the very same pain and struggle. Sending you huge hugs back and please tell your mom that I send my warmest regards- have only the fondest memories of our high school years together and hanging out at each other’s houses.....and Friendly’s 😄 while our collective parents looked on with pride.
> Hope to meet your sweet girl soon, and I’d love to meet up for lunch or whatever, sometime after the holidays, just you and me, to catch up and just talk. Love to you and yours. 😘😘😘
> 
> 12/16/18
> (Friend)- Yes, I’d love to catch up, and thank you for the kind words and wishes. They mean a lot to me. Know I feel the same way, and look forward to those moments together, warmly catching up. Hopefully sooner rather than later while the weather is still cold. Peace to you and your family. Lots of love, (wife’s initial). ~M 💕
> 
> 12/18
> (Friend) -Merry Christmas, (Wife’s name). Have a safe and wonderful holiday. - M.
> 
> 12/22 10:40am
> 
> Thanks (Friend)! Same to you! 😊 How’s your mom doing? We (with my mom) were originally planning to go to SF on vacation next week but had to cancel because of mom’s GI problems have not improved. Honestly, I’m kind of thankful about canceling - I just want to camp at home and try to relax a little. 💆‍♀️
> 
> (Friend) I know the feeling. Hanging out local this year as well. Hope your mom feels better. My mom is status quo, which basically she is comfortable and getting around a bit. She is a worrier, so minutia gets her nervous even though it may not be anything serious.
> 
> (Wife). My mom is the opposite, hides things from the rest of us, then says “x has been hurting for a week, but I’m not a complainer, so no big deal. 🏻🏻,🏻
> 
> 12/22/18
> (Friend) if I don’t notice first, my mom probably wouldn’t say anything for a week either. Ugh. She’s chosen not to get treatment because she’s comfortable and there’s not much she can do that makes dealing with even little things a challenge. Hang in there, my friend. Give a holler should you ever want to talk. ~Mx
> 
> (Wife). You too. 🙂
> 
> 
> 1/5/19
> (Friend) Happy new year to you and your family. Running to Chicago on Monday. Back on Wednesday. Still look forward to catching up with you. Mx
> 
> (Wife). Happy new year (M) and Happy Birthday (tomorrow). Is this 50?!? Can we do lunch next week? I can do any day except Wednesday, 1/9 Friday?
> 
> (Friend) Yes, 50 tomorrow. Ugh. Still have the maturity of about 14, so I should ask for your forgiveness ahead of time should I run astray. That said, Friday may be a possibility but I will not know for sure until I return to the office Thursday morning.
> 
> 1/5/19 8:27pm
> (Wife). Young at heart is the best way to be. 😊. No prob, I’ll pencil it in. Totally fine to cancel up to the last minute, I work from home......
> 
> 1/11/19 9:01am
> (Wife) Hi (Friend)! I’m so sorry, but I can’t make lunch today. Have to manage mom this morning, afternoon. Not even sure you made it home in one piece after your ordeal. 😬. I can do lunch any day next week except Wednesday. Let me know what your schedule is looking like. 😍
> 
> 1/11/19 11:30am
> (Friend) Made it home late. Still catching up. Speak soon.
> 
> 1/14/19 9:18pm
> (Friend) Catching up this week. Are you around next? Have to drive (C) (* C is Friend’s daughter, from a prior marriage) back to school on Saturday. Back after that. Look forward to seeing you. Mx
> 
> 1/14/19 10:39 pm
> (Wife). Yup, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday all good for lunch next week. By the way, (husband) is taking the kids to go see the Bridge demolition tomorrow morning. I can’t go. Have to take mom to the doctor. Sounds fun tho. 🙂
> 
> 1/17/19 3:47pm
> (Friend) I watched it on a friend’s video. Always fun to see something blown up. Definitely more valuable than school. I’ve been busy with my mom too. Hang in there. I think of you often.
> 
> 1/18/19 11:30am
> (Wife). Trying my hardest. It’s been a rough week.
> 
> 1/18/19
> (Friend) know the feeling. Halfway to (city). Home late tonight.
> 
> 1/19/19
> (Friend) The little one is back at school safe and sound. Hope you’re staying warm and cozy. See you soon.
> 
> 2/24/19
> (Friend) Miss you. All too easy to get lost in the challenges of the everyday. Would love to catch when you have a few minutes. You’ve been in my thoughts often. I hope your mom is feeling ok.
> 
> 2/24/19 11:41pm
> (Wife)Miss you too! I know exactly how you feel getting lost in the day. Heading to bed now but will check in with you tomorrow to try and get us back on the calendar. Good night. 😊
> 
> 2/25/19 10:19am
> (Wife). Free for coffee or lunch this Thursday or Friday?
> 
> (Friend) Lunch, Thursday?
> 
> (Wife) Yes, you pick the spot. Local would be good. Rather maximize talk time.
> 
> 2/25/19 (Friend) How about (restaurant)?
> 
> (Wife). Sure, never been there. Casual? Business casual?
> 
> (Friend) Probably business casual, but I go in jeans and polo. Good food. Quiet.
> 
> (Wife) Perfect, 12:30?
> 
> (Friend) Perfect, looking forward.
> 
> (Wife). Me too! 😊
> 
> *Wife and Friend have three hour lunch together*
> 
> 2/28/19 4:26pm
> (Wife) SO good to catch up with you today.😊
> If you ever need an ear to help with your mom’s situation, please don’t hesitate to reach out. Looking forward to having you over soon, maybe with dinner via “fresh go-go”
> 
> 2/28/19 5:43pm
> (Friend) I really enjoyed catching up with you as well. I missed you and felt it strongly this afternoon. I was actually thinking about what to write to you. These are emotional times for both of us and I often find that such strong feelings can easily be displaced into those around us- especially those whom we trust and respect. With that, I hope you understand that I offer the following with the same respect and pure intentions. You are beautiful and I could have hugged you a hundred times today. I hope that makes some sense. 🙂 look forward to seeing you again soon. ~M
> 
> 2/28/19 9:36 pm
> (Friend) I hope my comments do not make you uncomfortable. If so, I apologize. There is no subtly hidden message. Just that I’m so thankful for reconnecting with you and really appreciate the opportunity to talk. It’s an emotional time, and mine tend, all too often, to spill out all over the place- not just where, perhaps, they more functionally belong. Then, after having proper “function” best into me for so many years, I’ve learned its definitely worth setting aside some time for pure form. I’m so happy to have shared the rediscovery of yours after so much time. Hope to talk to you soon- welcome of course, the kids and (my name). Great to see you, hang in there, sweet dreams. -M.
> 
> 2/29/19
> 
> (Wife) OMG, not uncomfortable at all. In fact, I read your lovely text earlier but didn’t have a chance to reply and was worried you’d be worried that I was uncomfortable if I took too long to reply LOL. The kids just went to bed (they seem to be coming down with something, ugh) and I literally just sat down to reply to you when your second text came through. I completely understand where your heart is and I was honestly going to say the same thing you just said. I’m so thankful to have reconnected with you, especially during this sensitive time for both of us. Your friendship always meant a great deal to me and does even more now. I’m sure we’ll both continue to get caught up in our busy lives, but I hope we’ll both find the time to reconnect as often as possible as we did today. Sending you hundreds of hugs back. 😊
> 
> 3/1/19 9:41 am
> (Friend). I’m glad. Please call me should you need anything. In the meantime, know you are in my thoughts. 😘
> 
> 3/12/19 9:46 pm
> (Friend) Hope you’re finding a little peace. Know that you are in my thoughts. Sweet dreams. 😊
> 
> 3/13/19 7:19 pm
> (Wife) crazy early release from school, so no peace today. 🏻,🏻 Things with mom are stable, which is a good thing, but our lifestyles are so different, which makes the day to day routine challenging at times. Very trivial stuff, especially compared to what you’re going through right now. How’s your mom holding up? And you?
> 
> 3/13/19 9:27pm
> (Friend) Slow to no slide. She is comfortable, but getting weaker, slowly. At least I can step away - in person, if not in thought- each night. And, even the best kids have their moments. Though I’d trade for them in a heartbeat. Quiet house feels strange. Daughter at Disney world for spring break.
> Let me know if you ever want to break the routine. A daze of routine here as well.
> “Good night and good luck” Edward R. Murrow LOL.
> Okay, for real this time. “Now not day only shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away. J.R.R. Tolkien
> 
> 3/14/19 11:06am
> (Wife) totally understand. It’s so hard to work sometimes when the house is noisy, but then I hate it when my family is not around me, making noise.
> I’m glad to hear your mom is comfortable, at least in the relative sense. Keep me posted on her condition, and let me know if I can help with anything.
> 
> 3/14/19
> (Friend) Same here. Look forward to seeing you again.
> 
> 3/23/19 1:34pm
> (Friend) Happy Birthday sweetheart! Love you! 😘
> 
> 3/23/19 3:40
> (Wife) Thank you!!! 🙏🏻😁
> 
> 3/29/19 12:23am
> (Wife) I honestly don’t know how to tell you this other than coming out and saying it plainly- I am in complete shock, but my mom
> was just diagnosed with stage IV pancreatic cancer. This past Sunday she seemed kind of jaundiced, so we took her to the doctor on Monday. After bloodwork and CT scan, we were told the news on Tuesday. The tumor created a blockage in the bile duct, so we had a stent put in today. I am actually writing you here from the hospital, as we are staying overnight for observation. She is actually in great spirits, viewing the whole thing as a gift since all she’s been wishing for these past 6 months has been to be reunited with my father. I was crushed by the news at first, but am mostly at peace with it. It’s all very surreal, to the point where I’m really wondering if my dad is calling for her. Anyhow, I hope that you’re managing ok and that your mom is still “comfortable” all things considered. We should be back home tomorrow. Will try and connect with you again the next few days.
> 
> 3/29/19 9:00am
> (Friend)
> I almost can’t believe what I’m reading. My mother entered the hospital with similar symptoms. Same diagnosis and had a stent put in. The stent made her more comfortable. She was at peace as well, my cousin telling me she missed my dad. My mom took the news similarly, told me she was not sad.
> I have no words except that I am here.
> I don’t mind talking if you feel like it. Let me offer hope for peace for you, your mom and your family.
> Not sure if it helps, and I’m pretty skeptical on the whole afterlife thing, but, for what it’s worth, my mom is convinced my father is watching over her and waiting for her. She had talked about it for years. She is not religious at all. Notwithstanding, of this she seems sure.
> Take care of yourself. I’ve found that’s hard to do during these times. You and your mom
> are in my thoughts. Reach out anytime. 😘
> 
> 3/29/19 4:22pm
> 
> (Wife). Got your message, thank you 🙏🏻. Both brothers in town this weekend w/ family. Will be in touch again soon. 💕
> 
> (Friend) No prob, take care of yourself I’m sure it will be good to have everyone together. You know where to find me.
> 
> 4/6/19 10:16 pm
> (Friend) Checking in to see how you are. You and your mom are in my thoughts.
> 
> 4/7/19 1:34 am
> (Wife) So sweet of you to check in. Just taking things one day at a time. She has no pain or discomfort, but she is definitely slower and weaker than before. Now I completely understand your previous description of how you were managing your mom every day. How is she doing?
> 
> 4/7/19 2:35 pm
> (Friend) Pretty much the same. A little bit weaker, but not suffering. Let me know if you would like to talk. Remember to take care of yourself. It’s hard at times like this. L, M
> 
> 4/7/19 5:36pm
> (Wife). I know it. Doing my best to get as much sleep as possible whenever possible. Feeling physically and emotionally exhausted these days. Hope you are hanging in there too.
> 
> 4/7/19 8:01pm
> (Friend) Tired today. Just got home. Sleep tight. You are in my thoughts.
> 
> 4/17/19
> Friend announces the passing of his mother in an announcement written for all friends and family.
> 
> 4/17/19
> (Wife) I just tried calling your cell, but got your VM. I was so sad to get your text, it hit me like a ton of bricks this morning. Obviously I knew this would come at some point soon, but I guess it’s really never really real until you see or hear the actual words. My heart is SO with you right now. I will do my best to drop by your home reception tomorrow night to give you a huge hug. Unpredictable, depending on how my mom is doing, but I’ll definitely try to get there. Sending you love and hugs and all the strength I can muster.
> 
> (Friend) I understand. Thank you for all your kind words. I’m here for you as well. Nothing prepares you, but if you want to talk, I will be here. Please wish your mom well. It’s different for everyone and your mom may not want to talk about it, but for your peace of mind, my mom did not suffer and seemed at piece to the end. Love you.
> 
> 4/18/19 11:03am
> (Wife). Thinking of you a lot today. I don’t know how you managed this situation by yourself, but know that you are not alone. I am fully there with you in spirit. I am not going to make it to your house this evening, as I am at the hospital with mom, arrived in ER last night and staying at least for one more night. She had some cognitive disorientation that was truly scary and rang the alarm bell for (husband) and I that we have hit the max limit of our ability to care for her by ourselves, especially with our children at home. From here, we will likely head to some kind of hospice facility. No need to respond right now, I know you’ve got a lot going on today. Just know that I am here, marveling at your strength, sending you nonstop hugs and prayers and love.
> 
> 4/20/19 12:23pm
> (Wife). Hope you’re doing ok. Maybe even doing something just for you this weekend. 😊. Let me know when you have some time to chat on the phone. We are still camped out at the hospital, probably discharging on Monday. Have to make some decisions on palliative/hospice care, home vs facility. Would love to get your advice.
> 
> 4/20/19 6:41pm
> 
> (Friend) Hey (wife’s name). Thank you for such kind words and know that I remain here for you, for anything, as well. I think one of the few good things to come from situations like these is that they remind us, we are not alone. Sure, your family is there, but sometimes it is easy to forget that you can reach outside this inner circle to close friends and loved ones. I don’t call on this network often but am always reassured when I do. Sometimes for just tiny things and sometimes for more. Sometimes very openly and sometimes privately.
> I will be happy to talk to you about your mom and some of the decisions she will have to make. I am driving (daughter) back to (city) tomorrow. We can speak while I’m driving home or anytime Monday. Let me know what works for you. Best to you and your mom. My thoughts are with both of you. M <3
> 
> 4/20/19 10/30pm
> 
> (Wife) It would be great if we could speak tomorrow as we have some decisions to make rather quickly. Please text me when you know what time you’re heading home from (city) and we can connect. Thx (M). 🙏🏻😊
> 
> 4/21/19 5:46pm
> (Friend) Hey (wife’s name). Driving. I’m leaving (city) now. Have to drive to a large dead spot so I can call you at 7:30.
> 
> (Wife ). Sure, my cell is fine, but easier to talk when you get home?
> 
> (Friend) Hi (wife’s name). I got your message. I’ll call you when I get home around 9 9:30.
> 
> (Wife). Sounds good.
> 
> 4/21/19 9:32pm
> (Friend) just got home. Give me a call when you are free at my home number.
> 
> 4/22/19 8:41am
> (Friend) Ping me anytime should you want to chat. ~M
> 
> (Wife) Thank you, and thank you very much again for last night. A lot to absorb for sure. Everything that has happened the last several months has certainly prompted a lot of reflection about life and the way things play out that none of us can truly understand or explain. When we were hanging out in high school just doing our thing, who knew that at least with respect to our moms would be such parallel universes. Imagine if my mom ends up going to hospice and getting the same room your mom had. Crazy. IDK I think sitting around in a hospital room killing time for days does this to a person. 😊 ttys
> 
> (Friend) Even if your mom decides to remain at home, I would speak with (name) at Hospice house. They are much more knowledgeable regarding the situation. I think she may be able to offer more clarity about what options you and your mom have.
> 
> (Wife) OK, got it. 👍
> 
> 4/23/19 9:44am
> (Wife) Just FYI, I met with (name) yesterday and also (name). The setup is phenomenal and OMG they LOVE you and your mom. Hopefully discharging from hospital and heading to (facility) for short-term rehab for couple days. Talk soon. 🙏🏻😊
> 
> (Friend) I’m glad. They are good, dedicated people. Ping me anytime you would like to talk or if I can help you in any way. Best to you and your mom.
> 
> (Wife). Thanks (M) 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
> 
> 5/8/19 12:13pm
> (Friend) (wife’s name) how are you doing? Just wanted you to know that I’m thinking of you and your mom. ❤
> Please let me know if you need anything or just want to talk.
> 
> (Wife) OMG, you have uncanny timing. I just sent to some of my mom’s friends: (long, beautifully written announcement of her mom’s passing)
> (Wife) Would love to catch up with you very soon, likely after the service/burial as family are in town right now. Much love to you and a million thanks for all the guidance. 🙏🏻💕
> 
> 
> (Friend) Oh, I’m sorry (wife’s name). I felt I needed to write you now. I’m at work and my thoughts of you were suddenly very strong.
> My mom was very private as well, with similar wishes. Please know that I am here and can help should you need anything. I know the next few days will be difficult- both emotionally as well as logistically- strange bedfellows, indeed. The feelings take time to surface and my experience is that they bubble up at unexpected moments. I think this is the way it’s supposed to be. You know I am not a religious person, but the nature of our time together is strongly bound to loss. It is part of all of us and something worth acknowledging, no matter how difficult. None of your mom’s gifts to you and the people she touched travel with her. They are part of you and will be forever and ever. I am still discovering some of my mom even now. I think you will as well. Make sure when the time is right, you spend some time in peace, no matter how brief. I found that is where many of these lessons reside. My experience is that they do not fade with time and that there is no rush.
> 
> 5/12/19
> (Friend) Happy Mother’s Day, (wife’s name). I’m quite sure your mother is very proud of you. I hope you find some peace today. L,M
> 
> 5/12/19
> (Wife) Thank you, (M). 💕 It’s been amazing having you by our side these past several months. I never used to believe in “support groups” but it’s been comforting knowing that someone, especially a trusted friend, who’d just been through the same experience, was there for us. Also received a very sweet text message from (another friend) Thank you for sharing the news with him. Hope you are holding up today- I’m certain your mom is very proud of you as well. 😊💕
> 
> 6/21/19 7:17am
> (Friend) (wife’s name), it’s been a while and I’m just checking in to see how you are doing. I hope you’re ok and finding your way forward. Let me know if you would like to talk. Thinking about you. Love, (M)
> 
> 6/24/19 6:02pm
> (Wife). Hi (M) We’re good, thanks so much for checking in. It’s been a whirlwind of activity the last month, with mom’s arrangements, notifying her friends, (she has a lot of them and they all like to talk on the phone) catching up with work and (our son’s) graduation from elementary school. We just finished the last activities and now we’re packing for a desperately needed week’s vacation. When we return, I’d love to have you over to just hang out and relax. How are you doing? I hope you’re taking the time to heal too. Any plans for the summer.
> 
> 6/25/19 2:04pm
> (Friend) Glad you’re alright. I’m ok. Good to have (daughter) home from college although she has been busy. Working my way through probate and busy at work. Otherwise, trying hard to keep life simple for a few months. Have a safe and well deserved vacation. I’m sure all of you could use it. Look forward to seeing you when you get back. MxO
> 
> 8/8/19
> (Wife) Hi (M)! Are you free at all for lunch next week?
> 
> 8/8/19 7:20pm
> (Friend) Definitely!
> 
> 8/23/19 9:41am
> (Friend) Hey, my friend. I hope you are doing ok. I miss you and look forward to getting together. I was going to say the past week was difficult, but, then, you know, it’s a sliding scale. Let me know when you might have some time to get together. (Daughter) just went back to (college) so you definitely have a busier schedule than I do. M ❤
> 
> (Wife). OMG, your ears must have been buzzing. Was literally thinking about you about 10 minutes ago. Last week got crazy so I couldn’t pull it together for lunch. You free for lunch today?
> 
> (Friend) unfortunately today is the only day I can’t do. ☹ I have a lunchtime meeting at work. Usually Fridays are good, as are weekends as well.
> 
> (Wife) let me check on tomorrow.
> 
> (Friend) Okay 😊
> 
> 8/23/19 11:19am
> (Wife ) Tomorrow works for me if good for you. Ever been to (restaurant) near (restaurant)?
> 
> (Friend). Nope, but sounds good. I’m free anytime.
> 
> (Wife) 1pm?
> 
> (Friend) perfect. Can’t wait to see you!
> 
> (Wife). Awesome! See you then! 😊
> 
> *3 1/2 hour lunch*
> 
> 8/24/19 4:30 pm (This written minutes after my wife texted that she’s on her way home, likely written from his car)
> (Friend). Thank you so much for lunch. And thank (husband’s) name for sharing you.
> 
> Um, that came out wrong. 😘
> 
> Seriously, though, the time we talk really means a lot to me. Something very treasured these days.
> 
> (Wife) LOL 😂 I know what you meant! I completely agree, definitely feeling a little lost these days, but just trying to move forward a day at a time. Stay strong, and please don’t hesitate to touch base anytime.
> 
> *Wife and Friend make plans via group text to meet up at a get together hosted at a mutual high school friend’s parent’s house*
> 
> 8/26/19 8:45pm
> (Friend) You better come, sweetheart! Can carpool if you don’t bring the fam. Mx
> 
> (Friend) I hate group texts. Now my phone will beep every time someone texts (mutual old
> high school friend who is having a party). Is that mental? Don’t care 😜
> 
> (Wife) LOL, totally know what you mean. I’ll definitely go. Still trying to figure out the kid situation....
> 
> (Wife) Hi (M)! I’m going to be running around a bit before (mutual high school friend’s) thing tonight, so I’ll probably just meet you there instead of carpooling. Promise I’ll be there tho! 🤝 😂
> 
> (Friend). No prob. Actually, I’m going to be stuck at the office until last minute. I’ll probably run home and shower and head over.❤
> 
> (Wife) Perfect, 👌 see you there.
> 
> (Friend) Saturday, 9/25/2019
> Yesterday was fun catching up. I still enjoy our time together the best.


----------



## Tilted 1

You are seeing some signs, she playing with fire and she's the fuel. Call M and say hey MF, if your lonely get a cat and dog don't contact my wife of my family ever again. And if you get a message to her and I find out we're doing some up close talking and I will the you this we ain't gonna hug. Because l don't give a ratsass about you, or your losses, talk to a counselor. 

And the next time he offers a thought of alone time with your wife , tell him we're meeting for sure. And then show your wife the text you sent him and as her if she would like you to call him in person? And say the same you just texted him! What she does next will tell you alot. Let her know her life was just as good without him since December. And the he her friend wants to take it to the next level, and is playing her. And that you will not play the pick me game, and if your wife needs a friend get her her own dog. No reason for her to go there, unless she bringing the matches! 

Take care of business, don't delay and WIMP OUT!
Stand tall, and show them both your pair is much much larger than his, and will back it up. 

SEMPER FI Man!!


----------



## niceguy47460

You better step in now . Don't wait for it to go any further. It will going physical soon if you don't stop it now . The I love you and hearts and all that is a big red flag .


----------



## OutofRetirement

What do you think your wife thinks about how you've handled it? She knows you have encouraged them initially, now indifferent. A lot of cheating wives in supposed fairytale marriages wind up saying "I didn't think you cared." You have sent that message to your wife.

I agree with others, tell your wife you want to go to the next get-together. I would just leave it at that. If she asks why, tell her you love her and want to know her friends. There shouldn't be secret friends who aren't allowed to see the spouse.

I perused the texts. I didn't see your wife mentioning your fairytale marriage, and very little of you. More talk about them wanting to hug each other and not feeling uncomfortable, than about you or the fairytale marriage.

Does "fairytale" marriage means that you hide your feelings and your wife hide hers, too? If so, then yes, I agree, it's truly a fairytale marriage. Who's lying more, your wife about what's going on with her male friend, or you hiding your feelings about it?

You say you have read a few weeks here. Have you noticed the cheaters revert back to high school? They frequently say about the affair that they feel alive like they haven't since high school, or ever. Your wife likes the attention of an old close male friend. No matter how good your wife's life, marriage, family, kids is, no matter how "fairytale," it is not blissful and exciting most of the time. Maybe it is peaceful contentment most of the time, very stable, very secure, as close to unconditional love as it gets. But an affair, it is strong and intense and blissful. Feels that way while they're in it, anyway. "I miss you so much, I can't stop thinking about you, I want to see you again so bad, when can we?" In this case, "our parents would have wanted us to be together." "I wonder what kind of life we would have had." "My marriage never was that great." "I finally found my soulmate after all these years. Us reconnecting was destiny."

But the affair is dangerous and exciting. Crossing boundaries. Having secrets together. Infatuation. Puppy-love crushes. AN ESCAPE, A FANTASY. I call it the "Affair Bubble" - the outside world like marriage and spouse and kids does not penetrate inside, it is an escape from reality. This is what I see with your wife. The cheaters you read about here, they step over that line within the first month of reconnecting usually. I'm just trying to put that in perspective, your wife does not look like the type who is intentionally stepping over the line. Maybe she never would, but from where I sit, she could go physical any time now. The Shirley Glass book of Not Just Friends really is what your wife is going through. Her and her close male friend is one misstep away from a full-on emotional and physical affair. All of the groundwork is in place, just waiting for one or both to let their guards down for a moment. And once it's on, I think it will be tough to stop.


----------



## dreamer2017

Why would you let this go on so long without confronting her?


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Welcome to TAM, sorry you're having troubles. I perused a bit. 
It's sad there are health issues, much empathy there.

First, kindly, good writing however more paragraphs would parse the focal points and allow more detailed reading.

You'll find much good advice and considerations to ponder here.

Welcome!


----------



## arbitrator

* @Physics ~ I truly believe that in the history of TAM, yours is the longest post to date. Like Ragnar, I think that ways to paragraph your post would make it much easier to research, read, and comprehend!

Having said that, I really don't think that you need the assistance of a GPS to realize where this "platonic relationship" is headed.

With or without marital counseling, if this is allowed to continue, the meeting places will soon change from restaurant and coffee shop venues to local, as well as out-if-town motels!

Ringers on cellphones have to manually exercised. Don't be fooled in the least!

If their private soirée continues, it's only a matter of time before this relationship goes from EA to PA, and deception will come to reign supreme!

Best of luck to you, my friend!*


----------



## 269370

Physics said:


> First, I would like to thank an innumerable number of people here for the lens they created through countless posts regarding both their own experiences and the advice and opinions they offer when others post, asking for advice. It’s the intellectual equivalent of crowdsourcing and it can be a very powerful tool to channel and direct the mind and emotions in ways that are helpful when looking for the light. I’m certain all of us here are intimately familiar with how powerful thoughts and emotions can be in the arena of marriage. In that same vein, these same forces that make marriage and love so profoundly deep and powerful, at least for those lucky enough to experience the depths and heights that a wonderful marriage can bring to life, can, if not harnessed, run away and cloud your thinking when something challenges the relationship.
> In an otherwise fairy tale nineteen year marriage to the most amazing wife in the world, blessed with two wonderful young children, we’ve recently been visited by what, for a time, cast a dark shadow, and here I am, the husband, looking into the state of mind that gave rise to a feeling of betrayal and to the words and actions themselves that animate these feelings. We all struggle to some degree, on occasion, to grasp the true meaning of words and in that way I still struggle to find the proper meaning for where my wife’s mind was in what, using the bluntest of instruments, would be, at minimum, in my opinion, a nascent, budding emotional affair. Obviously, I wouldn’t be here, reaching out to total strangers for help understanding this if I wasn’t grappling with meaning.
> Having spent a great deal of time here on this forum these past few weeks, and having read from as many sources and experiences of members, I’ve come to understand a great deal and feel so much wiser. Still, I’m searching for more and want to find the best way to navigate these feelings. It’s truly a unique, first experience for me where I feel not the master of my thoughts and that’s quite difficult, for me, at least. Plainly spoken, these emotions consume the mind! When you believe you’ve begun to have them settle into a good place, a place where emotions aren’t so dominating, the cycle begins again and the struggle continues. This past night it was a dream, a damned dream that my wife hid something from me that destroyed my rest and left me unable to fall asleep again. Lack of sleep is also good fertilizer for negative emotions, I’ve found. Progress is always made in my mind, even though it may seem the same issues are circulating. Through these movements, we heal the mind and spirit, of this I am certain.
> That, of course, doesn’t leave you much to talk about, right? With that I offer you readers some background, if I may. As I’d mentioned, I have, present tense, past tense and future, a great marriage, one certainly envied by many. My life flows through her and hers through mine. She is my everything, and that’s the way it should be. She would never intentionally cause me pain, but that’s also what makes this so damned difficult! I am in pain, and she played a part in that, even if at the time, she, herself unaware of what it would mean. I desperately wanted to be able to carry all of this emotional pain and work through it, alone, but I couldn’t, and I’m still unsure if it would have been better if I’d been able to. It would come to pass that this has become a pain and struggle that both of us must work through. It became a thing, it became meaning, and I can’t believe it was only my fertile mind and strong immune system over-reacting to what only I would perceive as a threat in the marriage space. Obviously we all have different thresholds for what would constitute some form of betrayal, some incursion by another person, another man or woman into a space that only we may share with our spouses in marriage. There are no universals, but there are common threads, themes, ideas around which we reason.
> With that I ask what is the best way to approach this to allow you people to see into our world a bit and offer some wisdom? The basic nuts and bolts of things as they stand are fairly commonplace, it would seem. My wife reconnects with a friend from back in high school, from some thirty or so years ago. They were very, very close throughout high school. Not boyfriend/girlfriend in the technical, sexual sense, but, knowing my wife, likely a stronger bond than many typical sexual high school romances. Ironically, it was for my birthday, where she wanted me and our kids to see some of the cool tech gear this friend was working on, that we all met at his office. My wife and he had only run into each other once in a blue moon at the grocery store or whatever, in the past. While the kids and I played with his “toys”, they were busy catching up, talking, for the hour or so we were there.
> As an aside, and to provide some possibly useful information, several months prior, my wife lost her wonderful father quite suddenly, and she was no doubt still grieving to some degree. They were very close and we miss him very much. Coincidentally, her friend’s mother was dying of cancer, no doubt adding to his emotional burden. To make matters worse, three months after this initial meet up and a couple of months after their first three hour lunch, my wife’s mother was also diagnosed with terminal cancer. This was just this past spring and she passed away less than six weeks from diagnosis, one month or so after her friend’s mom had died.
> So, emotional stage setting now done, the fashion of most of these circumstances, even though they’ve run into each other randomly over the years and we all live in the same town, this meeting was a rekindling of their friendship, a positive thing. At least I would have thought. Text messaging between the two of them, sporadic at first, started immediately, but, in hindsight, immediately had an emotional charge that, when I discovered them much later, made me uncomfortable. From conversations between my wife and I after that initial group meeting, her friend was at an apparently low point in his life. His marriage failed and ended in a nasty divorce several years back, his mother is dying, he’s lonely and his college age daughter is spending less and less time with him as her life evolves. It was obvious my wife felt terribly for him, really, to the point where she wanted to help him, but how? I don’t recall if it was after this initial meeting with him and our family, or after their first three hour lunch a couple months later, but she actually teared up a bit while talking about how bad she feels for him. She’s a very compassionate, empathetic person, which are wonderful qualities, but when in that same conversation she suggested we have him over to watch an episode of Walking Dead, in all honesty, it made me uncomfortable. Should it have? That never came to pass, but it stuck in my mind, a mental note of sorts. Strangely, the time we spent at his office he seemed anything but in a dark place. He was warm, engaging and quite full of positive energy. People, of course, have their private and public persona.
> I think both men and women have been conditioned to relegate these “uncomfortable” feelings generated when our spouse shows signs of emotional attachment out of the marriage into the “just feeling jealous” territory. We are supposed to trust our spouses, explicitly and implicitly. Where is the line crossed where the uncomfortable feelings become legitimate reasons to address the concern openly? Obviously, this would depend of the relationship and the understandings between spouses. Polyamory couples would have an entirely different understanding than a traditional marriage, and a husband or wife who rages at the thought of the other even looking at an attractive stranger would be at the other end of the spectrum. I suppose if both couples have that understanding, the relationship works and the feelings are legitimate and consistent with the framework and expectations of their marriage contract.
> Where does that leave us? Obviously there’s a spectrum of opinions here, but the best I can do is to give you a glimpse through their texts. The three hour lunches are a black hole. How did I come to get these texts? Well, about five months after their first lunch meeting, they met again for another lunch. Each of these, of course, I was invited to, but declined, not wanting to be getting in the way of them reminiscing about things and catching up. Best, I thought, to also not seem the jealous, untrusting type of husband, so I insisted she go alone. Reading back on one particular text to him after that initial group meet up, she made it clear that the next meeting she wanted to be just the two of them. Yes, could be a relatively insignificant off-the-cuff text/remark, but I believe that it was a window into her emotions and not an intentional effort to exclude me consciously.
> Well, as their three hour lunch at our favorite restaurant progresses, my efforts to text her updates on what I was doing and planning with the kids went unanswered. Initially I was mildly annoyed, no doubt compounded by that little gut feeling that her having a second, long lunch with another man, an ex boyfriend of a sort, was somewhat inappropriate. Multiple texts, calls, pings later, still can’t get her. I know what some of you are thinking. Zero percent chance, really, that much I’m certain. You see, my wife has this bad habit of politely turning the ringer off on her phone so it doesn’t interrupt. In her purse, she can’t feel it vibrate and she can’t hear it. Still, I can’t imagine going three hours myself without checking my phone, just to check it! She wouldn’t either, unless she was totally engrossed in a conversation, a three hour conversation.....with someone, a man, who isn’t me. Three hours is fertile time to talk about more than just trivial, social stuff and what happened in math class three decades ago! It has to be! So, in the midst of my stewing and texting, my texts are popping up on her iMessage at our computer. I click through to view all of her text strings within the app just to see if she had been texting anyhow else and why she would be missing my texts. Of course, near the top of the strings is the texting thread with her friend, which I open, and read, entirely from beginning to end. Needless to say, I was concerned and find many to be inappropriate, both from him and to him. Anyhow, after over three hours, I texted and then called the restaurant owner, a good friend of ours, to tell them to please have one of her staff tell my wife to turn her ringer on! She did, and my wife immediately texted me and apologized for turning her ringer off. Enough said about that and what transpired afterwards. What I’m wondering is how you would react to these texts, within your marriage, from your perspective, given the setting I’ve described. I’ve sanitized them for anything that would betray their anonymity, of course, so I’m not overstepping boundaries myself. I really see no other way to shed light into this as I feel I’m no longer making progress. I’m hoping for some perspective, I guess. Well, here goes. Jump in. Thanks in advance for your insights!
> 
> This after the first group/family meet up on 12/15:
> 
> 12/15 6:13pm
> (Friend) So good to see you today. Happy Birthday to (My name). I hope he enjoyed the behind-the-scene tour of my insanity. 😊
> Your children are beautiful. I look forward to seeing them again soon.
> Finally, I am so sorry to hear about your father. I know you were close- as I was with my dad. The trials of this time of our lives can leave us in an unfamiliar place. In a strange way, it is good to know that, as usual, we all have more in common than we think. I really just wanted to give you another big hug, just didn’t seem appropriate with the buzz of the Tesla coil and drone.
> I can’t wait to pick my little one up from school on Wednesday. And I hope you and I can find some more time to speak soon. Have a great evening. Stay Warm. 😘
> 
> 12/16/18 1:05 am
> 
> (Wife)- I completely adore and miss you. And I think every time I’ve run into you the last several years, I remember why we were such close friends in high school, and I kick myself for not staying in closer touch after college. (My name) loved his visit with you- thank you so much for taking time out of what must be a crazy schedule to make his birthday special. 🙏🏻 😍. (Names of our kids) said they definitely loved the Tesla coil the best. 👍
> I totally agree that there is a strange comfort in knowing that others are going through the very same pain and struggle. Sending you huge hugs back and please tell your mom that I send my warmest regards- have only the fondest memories of our high school years together and hanging out at each other’s houses.....and Friendly’s 😄 while our collective parents looked on with pride.
> Hope to meet your sweet girl soon, and I’d love to meet up for lunch or whatever, sometime after the holidays, just you and me, to catch up and just talk. Love to you and yours. 😘😘😘
> 
> 12/16/18
> (Friend)- Yes, I’d love to catch up, and thank you for the kind words and wishes. They mean a lot to me. Know I feel the same way, and look forward to those moments together, warmly catching up. Hopefully sooner rather than later while the weather is still cold. Peace to you and your family. Lots of love, (wife’s initial). ~M 💕
> 
> 12/18
> (Friend) -Merry Christmas, (Wife’s name). Have a safe and wonderful holiday. - M.
> 
> 12/22 10:40am
> 
> Thanks (Friend)! Same to you! 😊 How’s your mom doing? We (with my mom) were originally planning to go to SF on vacation next week but had to cancel because of mom’s GI problems have not improved. Honestly, I’m kind of thankful about canceling - I just want to camp at home and try to relax a little. 💆‍♀️
> 
> (Friend) I know the feeling. Hanging out local this year as well. Hope your mom feels better. My mom is status quo, which basically she is comfortable and getting around a bit. She is a worrier, so minutia gets her nervous even though it may not be anything serious.
> 
> (Wife). My mom is the opposite, hides things from the rest of us, then says “x has been hurting for a week, but I’m not a complainer, so no big deal. 🏻🏻,🏻
> 
> 12/22/18
> (Friend) if I don’t notice first, my mom probably wouldn’t say anything for a week either. Ugh. She’s chosen not to get treatment because she’s comfortable and there’s not much she can do that makes dealing with even little things a challenge. Hang in there, my friend. Give a holler should you ever want to talk. ~Mx
> 
> (Wife). You too. 🙂
> 
> 
> 1/5/19
> (Friend) Happy new year to you and your family. Running to Chicago on Monday. Back on Wednesday. Still look forward to catching up with you. Mx
> 
> (Wife). Happy new year (M) and Happy Birthday (tomorrow). Is this 50?!? Can we do lunch next week? I can do any day except Wednesday, 1/9 Friday?
> 
> (Friend) Yes, 50 tomorrow. Ugh. Still have the maturity of about 14, so I should ask for your forgiveness ahead of time should I run astray. That said, Friday may be a possibility but I will not know for sure until I return to the office Thursday morning.
> 
> 1/5/19 8:27pm
> (Wife). Young at heart is the best way to be. 😊. No prob, I’ll pencil it in. Totally fine to cancel up to the last minute, I work from home......
> 
> 1/11/19 9:01am
> (Wife) Hi (Friend)! I’m so sorry, but I can’t make lunch today. Have to manage mom this morning, afternoon. Not even sure you made it home in one piece after your ordeal. 😬. I can do lunch any day next week except Wednesday. Let me know what your schedule is looking like. 😍
> 
> 1/11/19 11:30am
> (Friend) Made it home late. Still catching up. Speak soon.
> 
> 1/14/19 9:18pm
> (Friend) Catching up this week. Are you around next? Have to drive (C) (* C is Friend’s daughter, from a prior marriage) back to school on Saturday. Back after that. Look forward to seeing you. Mx
> 
> 1/14/19 10:39 pm
> (Wife). Yup, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday all good for lunch next week. By the way, (husband) is taking the kids to go see the Bridge demolition tomorrow morning. I can’t go. Have to take mom to the doctor. Sounds fun tho. 🙂
> 
> 1/17/19 3:47pm
> (Friend) I watched it on a friend’s video. Always fun to see something blown up. Definitely more valuable than school. I’ve been busy with my mom too. Hang in there. I think of you often.
> 
> 1/18/19 11:30am
> (Wife). Trying my hardest. It’s been a rough week.
> 
> 1/18/19
> (Friend) know the feeling. Halfway to (city). Home late tonight.
> 
> 1/19/19
> (Friend) The little one is back at school safe and sound. Hope you’re staying warm and cozy. See you soon.
> 
> 2/24/19
> (Friend) Miss you. All too easy to get lost in the challenges of the everyday. Would love to catch when you have a few minutes. You’ve been in my thoughts often. I hope your mom is feeling ok.
> 
> 2/24/19 11:41pm
> (Wife)Miss you too! I know exactly how you feel getting lost in the day. Heading to bed now but will check in with you tomorrow to try and get us back on the calendar. Good night. 😊
> 
> 2/25/19 10:19am
> (Wife). Free for coffee or lunch this Thursday or Friday?
> 
> (Friend) Lunch, Thursday?
> 
> (Wife) Yes, you pick the spot. Local would be good. Rather maximize talk time.
> 
> 2/25/19 (Friend) How about (restaurant)?
> 
> (Wife). Sure, never been there. Casual? Business casual?
> 
> (Friend) Probably business casual, but I go in jeans and polo. Good food. Quiet.
> 
> (Wife) Perfect, 12:30?
> 
> (Friend) Perfect, looking forward.
> 
> (Wife). Me too! 😊
> 
> *Wife and Friend have three hour lunch together*
> 
> 2/28/19 4:26pm
> (Wife) SO good to catch up with you today.😊
> If you ever need an ear to help with your mom’s situation, please don’t hesitate to reach out. Looking forward to having you over soon, maybe with dinner via “fresh go-go”
> 
> 2/28/19 5:43pm
> (Friend) I really enjoyed catching up with you as well. I missed you and felt it strongly this afternoon. I was actually thinking about what to write to you. These are emotional times for both of us and I often find that such strong feelings can easily be displaced into those around us- especially those whom we trust and respect. With that, I hope you understand that I offer the following with the same respect and pure intentions. You are beautiful and I could have hugged you a hundred times today. I hope that makes some sense. 🙂 look forward to seeing you again soon. ~M
> 
> 2/28/19 9:36 pm
> (Friend) I hope my comments do not make you uncomfortable. If so, I apologize. There is no subtly hidden message. Just that I’m so thankful for reconnecting with you and really appreciate the opportunity to talk. It’s an emotional time, and mine tend, all too often, to spill out all over the place- not just where, perhaps, they more functionally belong. Then, after having proper “function” best into me for so many years, I’ve learned its definitely worth setting aside some time for pure form. I’m so happy to have shared the rediscovery of yours after so much time. Hope to talk to you soon- welcome of course, the kids and (my name). Great to see you, hang in there, sweet dreams. -M.
> 
> 2/29/19
> 
> (Wife) OMG, not uncomfortable at all. In fact, I read your lovely text earlier but didn’t have a chance to reply and was worried you’d be worried that I was uncomfortable if I took too long to reply LOL. The kids just went to bed (they seem to be coming down with something, ugh) and I literally just sat down to reply to you when your second text came through. I completely understand where your heart is and I was honestly going to say the same thing you just said. I’m so thankful to have reconnected with you, especially during this sensitive time for both of us. Your friendship always meant a great deal to me and does even more now. I’m sure we’ll both continue to get caught up in our busy lives, but I hope we’ll both find the time to reconnect as often as possible as we did today. Sending you hundreds of hugs back. 😊
> 
> 3/1/19 9:41 am
> (Friend). I’m glad. Please call me should you need anything. In the meantime, know you are in my thoughts. 😘
> 
> 3/12/19 9:46 pm
> (Friend) Hope you’re finding a little peace. Know that you are in my thoughts. Sweet dreams. 😊
> 
> 3/13/19 7:19 pm
> (Wife) crazy early release from school, so no peace today. 🏻,🏻 Things with mom are stable, which is a good thing, but our lifestyles are so different, which makes the day to day routine challenging at times. Very trivial stuff, especially compared to what you’re going through right now. How’s your mom holding up? And you?
> 
> 3/13/19 9:27pm
> (Friend) Slow to no slide. She is comfortable, but getting weaker, slowly. At least I can step away - in person, if not in thought- each night. And, even the best kids have their moments. Though I’d trade for them in a heartbeat. Quiet house feels strange. Daughter at Disney world for spring break.
> Let me know if you ever want to break the routine. A daze of routine here as well.
> “Good night and good luck” Edward R. Murrow LOL.
> Okay, for real this time. “Now not day only shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away. J.R.R. Tolkien
> 
> 3/14/19 11:06am
> (Wife) totally understand. It’s so hard to work sometimes when the house is noisy, but then I hate it when my family is not around me, making noise.
> I’m glad to hear your mom is comfortable, at least in the relative sense. Keep me posted on her condition, and let me know if I can help with anything.
> 
> 3/14/19
> (Friend) Same here. Look forward to seeing you again.
> 
> 3/23/19 1:34pm
> (Friend) Happy Birthday sweetheart! Love you! 😘
> 
> 3/23/19 3:40
> (Wife) Thank you!!! 🙏🏻😁
> 
> 3/29/19 12:23am
> (Wife) I honestly don’t know how to tell you this other than coming out and saying it plainly- I am in complete shock, but my mom
> was just diagnosed with stage IV pancreatic cancer. This past Sunday she seemed kind of jaundiced, so we took her to the doctor on Monday. After bloodwork and CT scan, we were told the news on Tuesday. The tumor created a blockage in the bile duct, so we had a stent put in today. I am actually writing you here from the hospital, as we are staying overnight for observation. She is actually in great spirits, viewing the whole thing as a gift since all she’s been wishing for these past 6 months has been to be reunited with my father. I was crushed by the news at first, but am mostly at peace with it. It’s all very surreal, to the point where I’m really wondering if my dad is calling for her. Anyhow, I hope that you’re managing ok and that your mom is still “comfortable” all things considered. We should be back home tomorrow. Will try and connect with you again the next few days.
> 
> 3/29/19 9:00am
> (Friend)
> I almost can’t believe what I’m reading. My mother entered the hospital with similar symptoms. Same diagnosis and had a stent put in. The stent made her more comfortable. She was at peace as well, my cousin telling me she missed my dad. My mom took the news similarly, told me she was not sad.
> I have no words except that I am here.
> I don’t mind talking if you feel like it. Let me offer hope for peace for you, your mom and your family.
> Not sure if it helps, and I’m pretty skeptical on the whole afterlife thing, but, for what it’s worth, my mom is convinced my father is watching over her and waiting for her. She had talked about it for years. She is not religious at all. Notwithstanding, of this she seems sure.
> Take care of yourself. I’ve found that’s hard to do during these times. You and your mom
> are in my thoughts. Reach out anytime. 😘
> 
> 3/29/19 4:22pm
> 
> (Wife). Got your message, thank you 🙏🏻. Both brothers in town this weekend w/ family. Will be in touch again soon. 💕
> 
> (Friend) No prob, take care of yourself I’m sure it will be good to have everyone together. You know where to find me.
> 
> 4/6/19 10:16 pm
> (Friend) Checking in to see how you are. You and your mom are in my thoughts.
> 
> 4/7/19 1:34 am
> (Wife) So sweet of you to check in. Just taking things one day at a time. She has no pain or discomfort, but she is definitely slower and weaker than before. Now I completely understand your previous description of how you were managing your mom every day. How is she doing?
> 
> 4/7/19 2:35 pm
> (Friend) Pretty much the same. A little bit weaker, but not suffering. Let me know if you would like to talk. Remember to take care of yourself. It’s hard at times like this. L, M
> 
> 4/7/19 5:36pm
> (Wife). I know it. Doing my best to get as much sleep as possible whenever possible. Feeling physically and emotionally exhausted these days. Hope you are hanging in there too.
> 
> 4/7/19 8:01pm
> (Friend) Tired today. Just got home. Sleep tight. You are in my thoughts.
> 
> 4/17/19
> Friend announces the passing of his mother in an announcement written for all friends and family.
> 
> 4/17/19
> (Wife) I just tried calling your cell, but got your VM. I was so sad to get your text, it hit me like a ton of bricks this morning. Obviously I knew this would come at some point soon, but I guess it’s really never really real until you see or hear the actual words. My heart is SO with you right now. I will do my best to drop by your home reception tomorrow night to give you a huge hug. Unpredictable, depending on how my mom is doing, but I’ll definitely try to get there. Sending you love and hugs and all the strength I can muster.
> 
> (Friend) I understand. Thank you for all your kind words. I’m here for you as well. Nothing prepares you, but if you want to talk, I will be here. Please wish your mom well. It’s different for everyone and your mom may not want to talk about it, but for your peace of mind, my mom did not suffer and seemed at piece to the end. Love you.
> 
> 4/18/19 11:03am
> (Wife). Thinking of you a lot today. I don’t know how you managed this situation by yourself, but know that you are not alone. I am fully there with you in spirit. I am not going to make it to your house this evening, as I am at the hospital with mom, arrived in ER last night and staying at least for one more night. She had some cognitive disorientation that was truly scary and rang the alarm bell for (husband) and I that we have hit the max limit of our ability to care for her by ourselves, especially with our children at home. From here, we will likely head to some kind of hospice facility. No need to respond right now, I know you’ve got a lot going on today. Just know that I am here, marveling at your strength, sending you nonstop hugs and prayers and love.
> 
> 4/20/19 12:23pm
> (Wife). Hope you’re doing ok. Maybe even doing something just for you this weekend. 😊. Let me know when you have some time to chat on the phone. We are still camped out at the hospital, probably discharging on Monday. Have to make some decisions on palliative/hospice care, home vs facility. Would love to get your advice.
> 
> 4/20/19 6:41pm
> 
> (Friend) Hey (wife’s name). Thank you for such kind words and know that I remain here for you, for anything, as well. I think one of the few good things to come from situations like these is that they remind us, we are not alone. Sure, your family is there, but sometimes it is easy to forget that you can reach outside this inner circle to close friends and loved ones. I don’t call on this network often but am always reassured when I do. Sometimes for just tiny things and sometimes for more. Sometimes very openly and sometimes privately.
> I will be happy to talk to you about your mom and some of the decisions she will have to make. I am driving (daughter) back to (city) tomorrow. We can speak while I’m driving home or anytime Monday. Let me know what works for you. Best to you and your mom. My thoughts are with both of you. M <3
> 
> 4/20/19 10/30pm
> 
> (Wife) It would be great if we could speak tomorrow as we have some decisions to make rather quickly. Please text me when you know what time you’re heading home from (city) and we can connect. Thx (M). 🙏🏻😊
> 
> 4/21/19 5:46pm
> (Friend) Hey (wife’s name). Driving. I’m leaving (city) now. Have to drive to a large dead spot so I can call you at 7:30.
> 
> (Wife ). Sure, my cell is fine, but easier to talk when you get home?
> 
> (Friend) Hi (wife’s name). I got your message. I’ll call you when I get home around 9 9:30.
> 
> (Wife). Sounds good.
> 
> 4/21/19 9:32pm
> (Friend) just got home. Give me a call when you are free at my home number.
> 
> 4/22/19 8:41am
> (Friend) Ping me anytime should you want to chat. ~M
> 
> (Wife) Thank you, and thank you very much again for last night. A lot to absorb for sure. Everything that has happened the last several months has certainly prompted a lot of reflection about life and the way things play out that none of us can truly understand or explain. When we were hanging out in high school just doing our thing, who knew that at least with respect to our moms would be such parallel universes. Imagine if my mom ends up going to hospice and getting the same room your mom had. Crazy. IDK I think sitting around in a hospital room killing time for days does this to a person. 😊 ttys
> 
> (Friend) Even if your mom decides to remain at home, I would speak with (name) at Hospice house. They are much more knowledgeable regarding the situation. I think she may be able to offer more clarity about what options you and your mom have.
> 
> (Wife) OK, got it. 👍
> 
> 4/23/19 9:44am
> (Wife) Just FYI, I met with (name) yesterday and also (name). The setup is phenomenal and OMG they LOVE you and your mom. Hopefully discharging from hospital and heading to (facility) for short-term rehab for couple days. Talk soon. 🙏🏻😊
> 
> (Friend) I’m glad. They are good, dedicated people. Ping me anytime you would like to talk or if I can help you in any way. Best to you and your mom.
> 
> (Wife). Thanks (M) 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
> 
> 5/8/19 12:13pm
> (Friend) (wife’s name) how are you doing? Just wanted you to know that I’m thinking of you and your mom. ❤
> Please let me know if you need anything or just want to talk.
> 
> (Wife) OMG, you have uncanny timing. I just sent to some of my mom’s friends: (long, beautifully written announcement of her mom’s passing)
> (Wife) Would love to catch up with you very soon, likely after the service/burial as family are in town right now. Much love to you and a million thanks for all the guidance. 🙏🏻💕
> 
> 
> (Friend) Oh, I’m sorry (wife’s name). I felt I needed to write you now. I’m at work and my thoughts of you were suddenly very strong.
> My mom was very private as well, with similar wishes. Please know that I am here and can help should you need anything. I know the next few days will be difficult- both emotionally as well as logistically- strange bedfellows, indeed. The feelings take time to surface and my experience is that they bubble up at unexpected moments. I think this is the way it’s supposed to be. You know I am not a religious person, but the nature of our time together is strongly bound to loss. It is part of all of us and something worth acknowledging, no matter how difficult. None of your mom’s gifts to you and the people she touched travel with her. They are part of you and will be forever and ever. I am still discovering some of my mom even now. I think you will as well. Make sure when the time is right, you spend some time in peace, no matter how brief. I found that is where many of these lessons reside. My experience is that they do not fade with time and that there is no rush.
> 
> 5/12/19
> (Friend) Happy Mother’s Day, (wife’s name). I’m quite sure your mother is very proud of you. I hope you find some peace today. L,M
> 
> 5/12/19
> (Wife) Thank you, (M). 💕 It’s been amazing having you by our side these past several months. I never used to believe in “support groups” but it’s been comforting knowing that someone, especially a trusted friend, who’d just been through the same experience, was there for us. Also received a very sweet text message from (another friend) Thank you for sharing the news with him. Hope you are holding up today- I’m certain your mom is very proud of you as well. 😊💕
> 
> 6/21/19 7:17am
> (Friend) (wife’s name), it’s been a while and I’m just checking in to see how you are doing. I hope you’re ok and finding your way forward. Let me know if you would like to talk. Thinking about you. Love, (M)
> 
> 6/24/19 6:02pm
> (Wife). Hi (M) We’re good, thanks so much for checking in. It’s been a whirlwind of activity the last month, with mom’s arrangements, notifying her friends, (she has a lot of them and they all like to talk on the phone) catching up with work and (our son’s) graduation from elementary school. We just finished the last activities and now we’re packing for a desperately needed week’s vacation. When we return, I’d love to have you over to just hang out and relax. How are you doing? I hope you’re taking the time to heal too. Any plans for the summer.
> 
> 6/25/19 2:04pm
> (Friend) Glad you’re alright. I’m ok. Good to have (daughter) home from college although she has been busy. Working my way through probate and busy at work. Otherwise, trying hard to keep life simple for a few months. Have a safe and well deserved vacation. I’m sure all of you could use it. Look forward to seeing you when you get back. MxO
> 
> 8/8/19
> (Wife) Hi (M)! Are you free at all for lunch next week?
> 
> 8/8/19 7:20pm
> (Friend) Definitely!
> 
> 8/23/19 9:41am
> (Friend) Hey, my friend. I hope you are doing ok. I miss you and look forward to getting together. I was going to say the past week was difficult, but, then, you know, it’s a sliding scale. Let me know when you might have some time to get together. (Daughter) just went back to (college) so you definitely have a busier schedule than I do. M ❤
> 
> (Wife). OMG, your ears must have been buzzing. Was literally thinking about you about 10 minutes ago. Last week got crazy so I couldn’t pull it together for lunch. You free for lunch today?
> 
> (Friend) unfortunately today is the only day I can’t do. ☹ I have a lunchtime meeting at work. Usually Fridays are good, as are weekends as well.
> 
> (Wife) let me check on tomorrow.
> 
> (Friend) Okay 😊
> 
> 8/23/19 11:19am
> (Wife ) Tomorrow works for me if good for you. Ever been to (restaurant) near (restaurant)?
> 
> (Friend). Nope, but sounds good. I’m free anytime.
> 
> (Wife) 1pm?
> 
> (Friend) perfect. Can’t wait to see you!
> 
> (Wife). Awesome! See you then! 😊
> 
> *3 1/2 hour lunch*
> 
> 8/24/19 4:30 pm (This written minutes after my wife texted that she’s on her way home, likely written from his car)
> (Friend). Thank you so much for lunch. And thank (husband’s) name for sharing you.
> 
> Um, that came out wrong. 😘
> 
> Seriously, though, the time we talk really means a lot to me. Something very treasured these days.
> 
> (Wife) LOL 😂 I know what you meant! I completely agree, definitely feeling a little lost these days, but just trying to move forward a day at a time. Stay strong, and please don’t hesitate to touch base anytime.
> 
> *Wife and Friend make plans via group text to meet up at a get together hosted at a mutual high school friend’s parent’s house*
> 
> 8/26/19 8:45pm
> (Friend) You better come, sweetheart! Can carpool if you don’t bring the fam. Mx
> 
> (Friend) I hate group texts. Now my phone will beep every time someone texts (mutual old
> high school friend who is having a party). Is that mental? Don’t care 😜
> 
> (Wife) LOL, totally know what you mean. I’ll definitely go. Still trying to figure out the kid situation....
> 
> (Wife) Hi (M)! I’m going to be running around a bit before (mutual high school friend’s) thing tonight, so I’ll probably just meet you there instead of carpooling. Promise I’ll be there tho! 🤝 😂
> 
> (Friend). No prob. Actually, I’m going to be stuck at the office until last minute. I’ll probably run home and shower and head over.❤
> 
> (Wife) Perfect, 👌 see you there.
> 
> (Friend) Saturday, 9/25/2019
> Yesterday was fun catching up. I still enjoy our time together the best.




Difficult this one...I am not sure how I would handle it to be honest.

It’s obviously a tough time for her with the sick mother etc and she needs a friend/someone to confide in.
There are only a few messages that overstep or are very close to the boundary (IMO) But this is also an exceptional situation.

Is it possible she needs a friend and someone to talk/connect to. Obviously she probably does not realise what this is (or might quickly become). Most people wouldn’t. Unless they had it happen to them.

I understand that it might be uncomfortable for you to appear like a snooping, jealous husband.
Maybe I would focus to try and become more involved with her/her emotions in this time as this is what she needs the most. 

It might not be easy, because I she is naturally leaning towards sharing more with her friend than with you (my guess). It is often easier to confide in strangers (something that my wife told me once when a similar thing happened between us, but on a smaller scale) however this phrase stuck with me...and it is maybe true (I’m not sure why it should be the case but it seems to be the case for some reason more often than not. Maybe because you haven’t had time to build up these walls yet with a stranger/you don’t know as well, as you would have with a spouse who knows you very well).

In any case, I think your best bet is to somehow find a way to point out the inappropriateness of it and she will probably deny it but it should still sink into her and she will limit her contact or stop altogether. I don’t think she is aware of how it looks like from your perspective.

This is the kind of thing that is always present, for any couple, at any time. Not always under our control too. It’s good you saw this in time.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dadstartingover

Boundaries boundaries boundaries. If your spouse can't put them up herself, it's time you do for her. Yes, sometimes you have to play the paternal role and give her the proverbial smack on the wrist and say "NO". She's a human, so she's not immune to become emotionally attached to another person.


----------



## Diana7

This is why its a bad idea for married people to go on 'dates' with someone of the opposite sex. This friendship should have been a joint one with you both, never her going alone for a one on one meal or anything else. The way she talks to him and shares with him is what she should be doing with you, not him. 
This is how affairs start, and there is no need for them to hug or for him to tell her she is beautiful and the other things they both say, that is crossing the line. 
Lots of red flags, and while you claim that she would never hurt you, this relationship has gone too far, surely she knows that? 

I would feel very uncomfortable if this was my husband acting the way she is with another woman. She is walking on very thin ice.

I would suggest that you say you would like to go as well the next time they meet. See what her reaction is. After all, she did ask you before. Its possible that she wont bother if you go. She also really needs to stop all the online contact as well.


----------



## MEM2020

These two people are falling in love before our very eyes. 

And the wife’s comments about needing someone to talk to - if I were her husband I would be mortified that she wasn’t bringing that grief about losing a parent - to me. I’d realize that maybe she doesn’t see me as a source of comfort in those type situations.




Diana7 said:


> This is why its a bad idea for married people to go on 'dates' with someone of the opposite sex. This friendship should have been a joint one with you both, never her going alone for a one on one meal or anything else. The way she talks to him and shares with him is what she should be doing with you, not him.
> This is how affairs start, and there is no need for them to hug or for him to tell her she is beautiful and the other things they both say, that is crossing the line.
> Lots of red flags, and while you claim that she would never hurt you, this relationship has gone too far, surely she knows that?
> 
> I would feel very uncomfortable if this was my husband acting the way she is with another woman. She is walking on very thin ice.
> 
> I would suggest that you say you would like to go as well the next time they meet. See what her reaction is. After all, she did ask you before. Its possible that she wont bother if you go. She also really needs to stop all the online contact as well.


----------



## SunCMars

Right now they are loving friends. Way too close.

All marriages have high and low fronts, moving in and out.

At the first sign of a marital storm at your 'place', there will be a tendency for her to seek out his port, in this, her marital low.

At least one other poster has suggested taking this 'friend' aside and reading him the riot act. I would be tempted, very tempted to do it in an angry manner.

Don't!

I do want you to call him out, though.
I caution you not to get angry. It will certainly backfire on you.

Talk to him, man to man, firmly, but calmly. Tell him not to contact your wife again.

Tell him he can make up any excuses he needs as to why. Ask him to not mention that the two of you had a talk.

Believe me, he will know where you are coming from. 

He will be all apologetic. 
Let him be that.

Give him his 'one chance' on being a good friend.....to you.

Tell him that the word is full of good women. 
And that your wife is spoken for.

When talking to him calmly, keep your fists clenched. He will likely pick up on that.



King Brian-


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## FalCod

Given all of the "you must stop this now" stuff, I'm going to give a different perspective. I'm not trivializing this because it clearly has you concerned and you are close to the situation.

First, while this could certainly be going in the wrong direction, it doesn't look like a problem today. The texting frequency is low. When two people are falling in love, they communicate much more frequently than this. It is possible that she's hiding another line of communication, but it doesn't seem like it. 

They have both scrubbed attempts to meet. People desperate to get together usually find excuses, even flimsy ones, to get together. People that are friends are more comfortable letting life get in the way.

So while I don't disagree with those that say that this could develop into something you don't want, I don't think it has yet nor does it seem to be on the verge of doing so.

The part that is more troubling to me is that she seems to be turning to someone other than you for comfort and understanding. Worse, she doesn't mention you much and not in the adoring way that people usually talk about their spouse with others. She not only doesn't seem infatuated with you (understandable at this stage of your lives), she doesn't give any indication that you are at the center of her life.

You could go in guns blazing. You could demand that she put an end to this. It's a gamble because she probably doesn't feel that she has done anything wrong. She could easily end up resentful and you will have done more harm than good.

I think you should focus on rekindling your passion for each other. Don't "rug sweep" this, but don't push her away with wild accusations or harsh demands. You should put your cards on the table. Tell her that you are concerned that she's been struggling with her losses. Tell her that you want to be the one that listens to her vent, holds her when she cries, lifts her up when she is down, and all that stuff. Be open with her about your concerns about her "ex boyfriend" (which is troubling if he is an ex lover rather than just an old friend) but listen to see what she thinks is the best way to handle your concerns. It's much better for you if the approach for dealing with your concerns is something that she supports rather than something you dictate.

That said, she may not respond the way you want. She may have stronger feelings than I sense from the texts. You may be driving her relationship underground. That's a risk you always have to take. A good marriage requires boundaries AND trust. If you ignore either of those, you are headed for trouble.

I hope this works out well for everyone involved.


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## Decorum

Give this a look.
https://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/436183-separated-headed-toward-divorce-wife-wants-divorce-but-i-dont.html
.
.
.


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## sokillme

My friend there is an inevitable truth that if you read on here becomes more then clear. 

Passive men get cheated on. 

I think that is partly because of the same law of nature that causes water to seek it's lowest point if you get my analogy but I also think it's because being passive is very unattractive to women. They like strong men, and that doesn't mean just lifting iron though that also helps.


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## dadstartingover

sokillme said:


> My friend there is an inevitable truth that if you read on here becomes more then clear.
> 
> Passive men get cheated on.
> 
> I think that is partly because of the same law of nature that causes water to seek it's lowest point if you get my analogy but I also think it's because being passive is very unattractive to women. They like strong men, and that doesn't mean just lifting iron though that also helps.


Passive, overly agreeable people get dumped on in all facets of life. The boss will take advantage of you at work, the friends will ask you for help but not be there for you when you need them, and the wife runs off with the sexy pool boy who still lives with his parents. 

It's okay to be the a-hole for a few minutes and cause drama. In the long run, it benefits everyone.


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## Cynthia

I agree that this is not a safe relationship for your marriage.

Has your wife been expressing to you her pain and grief? Have you been comforting her and encouraging her frequently and deliberately? She should be taking this to you, not him and you should be there 100% for her.

How do you feel about the loss of your in-laws? Were you close to them? Are you grieving too?

I remember when my grandparents died. My husband and I were very close to them. They lived a few hours away, so when we visited them, we would stay at their home. When you stay overnight with people often over a period of years, you have a routine and get to really know someone. My husband knew my grandparents deeply and spent a lot of time alone with my grandfather. My grandfather was his best friend. After my grandparents died, we grieved together. 15 years later, we still talk about them and how we miss them especially during certain times.

Your wife needs you right in there with her, grieving with her. Have you been doing that? If not, now is the time to start. She needs to direct her emotional connection to you, not this other man. I recommend you tell her this. It's not your fault this happened and I'm not saying that you weren't there for her. I'm asking if you have been or not to get a better understanding of what's happening here. Even if you haven't been there for her, it's hard to know what to do when she is not connecting with you over this, but is connecting with someone else over it.

Death of a family member is a life altering event. These are the times that husbands and wives grow together and their relationship deepens as they go through the hard times together. But if she's not doing this with you, that needs to change. It's time you spoke to her about that and worked through this together. You have to actively resolve this situation. Don't wait.


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## Physics

dreamer2017 said:


> Why would you let this go on so long without confronting her?


Good question. I suppose the simplest way to say it is, trust. I was also naive and somewhat blind to the reality that allowing multiple long lunches with a man that she had already established something of an emotional bond with years ago was dangerous territory. The texts I only became aware of less than a month ago and that’s when it hit me, that’s when my world began to tremble, when I began to understood what this meant, that it even had a name. I was, to put it mildly, devastated. It rocked me to my core. My wife has never said so much as an unkind thing to me, let alone “done” something like this. For a time, I wanted to believe that it just “happened” to her, to us, that these words, these three hour lunches didn’t “mean” she had allowed someone else, another man, into our private sanctuary. You’d understand my struggle with meaning, language, if you knew that I had a degree in philosophy and concentrated, wrote a thesis on Wittgenstein. Still, the meaning of a word is in the way it is used, and that’s hard to escape here, isn’t it? 
I did confront her, with an emotional torrent the likes of which I wouldn’t have imagined possible. I did not, however, tell her I knew about the texts. I wanted desperately to have HER tell me about them. From her perspective, I was just devastated about the realization that two, three hour lunches and a handful of gut feelings about it meant she had been unfaithful, to me. Even the thought of her having been seen with another man, for a three and a half hour lunch, at our favorite restaurant, horrified me. That’s what we do! I barely slept for days, honestly. She felt unbelievably awful, of course, that I was hurting so badly, but, she maintained that she had really done nothing wrong, per se. It was just lunch and talking and he was just a friend. As you might understand, it made it all the more difficult KNOWING the texts and hearing her insistence that she had done nothing wrong. I think she was aware in the causal sense that she was part of something that, in hindsight, hurt me terribly, but not in a way that she expressed could have been predicted. In other words, she wasn’t responsible for what had happened, just that something had happened and I felt terrible. It was clear to me and her that had she known about how I would react to “just lunches with an old friend” that she would have avoided the situation in the first place. In short, we were both in terrible pain, her feeling my pain, but in a sense it seemed she still couldn’t comprehend why I was so deeply hurt. I wondered if she had so compartmentalized this part of her world, that she herself was in such a state of denial over what “it” really was, that she was, in a sense, honestly confused. 
We did a great deal of talking, emotions and pain, my pain from what I felt was real, and her pain from what was my pain. I wanted her to tell
me what it meant, and I wanted to know. For days this went on, my emotions only being magnified by my poor sleep and angst. I avoided directly asking her for the texts, I wanted her to offer them to me. If I wanted to know what this all meant, clearly she had to know that would offer me something of a window into things, some solace if there was nothing there, and confirmation if there was that I had reason to be concerned. I alluded to this several times in a way that I then knew she was avoiding talking about the texts. In fact, when I finally more or less came out and said it, that I wanted to see them, I could sense the panic in her. Again, this doesn’t answer the question completely where her mind was, whether she at some point acknowledged to herself the inappropriate nature of the texts and the lunches, but it made me distinctly aware that she knew now how hurtful they would be in the context of what she thought was only my feelings towards the lunches. Objectively, the lunches are far less troubling than the texts, I think you would agree.
I didn’t ask for the texts again, and she never offered them up, preferring to avoid the subject. I’m sure she was suffering a great deal of internal conflict, wanting to be honest with me, as she believed she always was, and not wanting to make a bad situation worse. 
When push finally came to shove, and we agreed it was time to see the texts, we sat down and she showed them to me. Scrolling through them, it was painfully clear that she had “curated” them and sanitized/deleted everything that would have proved inappropriate, wrong. Even though at this point I expected her to do that, as she had already been dishonest with me, I thought, about the nature of things, it still crushed my soul. Here was the proof that she lied to me, the only time I believe she has ever done so, absolutely knowingly and with intent. I confronted her almost immediately and accused her of editing and curating them. She outright denied it, but she looked terrified and I felt devastated FOR HER and for me. I told her I had all the texts. She came clean, admitted she deleted texts, and she apologized. For some reason, she wouldn’t really explain why she had done it, instead only admitted they contained things that were “inappropriate”
Interestingly, prior to her discovering that I knew about the texts, I had asked her, hypothetically, if I had been fine with her continued occasional lunches, would she have continued them. She said yes, because they were just friends and nothing was wrong with that, having lunch with a friend. This, even in light of what I had explained I had come to know about how emotional affairs come into existence, she insisted that “we” were different. We don’t follow other people’s conventional rules because we trust each other, she explained. I tried to impress upon her that these things creep up on you, and, at minimum, at least one participant ends up emotionally involved. A bad recipe just at that, even if it’s the “other” man or woman. Our nature is to make emotional attachments, as humans, and it’s even easier to have these run out of control when there is something of a prior depth to the relationship. Virtually everyone agrees that old boyfriends and girlfriends are to be avoided when you’re in a marriage. It’s intuitive! 
That discussion about whether she would have continued contact with him did reveal one little tidbit. She told me that at the end of their last lunch, he hugged her just a little bit too long. Not completely inappropriately, just vaguely so. Well, in light of what they’d been texting to each other, this would only be a natural progression. Even if she had inadvertently used language that wasn’t reflective of her “true” feelings, his reading on it was on target and consistent with any reasonable mind. It obviously wasn’t uncomfortable enough to elicit a verbal or written response and she was willing to meet with him still at that party a week or so later where she wanted to reconnect with another mutual friend from her high school circle. 
So, here I am, trying to sort this all out in my mind and hoping for as much guidance and wisdom from people here who have invested a great deal of time and effort into unpacking all this stuff. I’m struggling to grasp where this situation belongs in the universe of these sorts of things. Hell, even the use of the term “sweetheart” by him to her is worthy of some sort of attention, negative attention! At minimum it would cause a funny look by a husband or wife that is present when used referring to their spouse, right? Yeah, that’d be uncomfortable. Sweetheart.......I couldn’t imagine saying that to another woman when I’m married or even in a committed relationship, or even saying it to a woman who is!


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## 269370

MEM2020 said:


> These two people are falling in love before our very eyes.
> 
> 
> 
> And the wife’s comments about needing someone to talk to - if I were her husband I would be mortified that she wasn’t bringing that grief about losing a parent - to me. I’d realize that maybe she doesn’t see me as a source of comfort in those type situations.




This is not quite as straightforward (IMO) because of the ill parent situation that they have in common. The wife probably feels that he can understand her because he has been through the same. 

I am not sure that as a husband, it is reasonable to expect to fulfil the role for every single need the partner might have...People do go to AA meetings for example (the partner could by this logic also reason: “why go to AA meeting, am I not able to resolve your addictions for you?”). People also have friends and share things they would not necessarily be comfortable sharing with their partner (which some think is not ok, but I’m not so sure).

On the other hand, their flirtations originated from before she found out about the mother’s illness. (And I didn’t understand the business of hugging a 100 times; like, in quick succession? )

Anyway, my worry is that the more the husband flexes, the more it might push her away (at least temporarily). And if he does nothing, it might escalate eventually into something more than somewhat inappropriate. At this point, I think it is better if she ARRIVES at it by herself somehow (with a gentle nudge from the husband).

On the basis of just the messages, this does seem like an inappropriate friendship that could turn into more (but hasn’t, yet).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tilted 1

Look! She denied, she liked, she Compartmentalize, and yet still want to meet him, this has already gone over the edge, if her boundaries are that weak you need to install your on her. Set the framework that is the hard line. And do tell this will not be accepted no longer. 
The reasons- she lied, she discounted, she compartmentalize, she justified it, she hid it, and " AT THE VERY LEAST SHE WANTED!! IT"
Sorry she isn't done it will go underground, sorry you showed her how you gained the info sorry my man.


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## Decorum

Physics said:


> Even if she had inadvertently used language that wasn’t reflective of her “true” feelings, his reading on it was on target and consistent with any reasonable mind.


That's a BIG "even if".

"To thine own self be true", not!!!

But if you are going to gaslight your husband (not to mention quais-outrage, or disingenuous denials), it helps your believability, to lie to yourself first.

This is why infidelity is unlike any other problem in a marriage, because of the disloyalty, deciet, disregard, and disrespect.

It strikes at the very foundation of the relationship itself.

Is she still, "your girl"?


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## 269370

Physics said:


> Good question. I suppose the simplest way to say it is, trust. I was also naive and somewhat blind to the reality that allowing multiple long lunches with a man that she had already established something of an emotional bond with years ago was dangerous territory. The texts I only became aware of less than a month ago and that’s when it hit me, that’s when my world began to tremble, when I began to understood what this meant, that it even had a name. I was, to put it mildly, devastated. It rocked me to my core. My wife has never said so much as an unkind thing to me, let alone “done” something like this. For a time, I wanted to believe that it just “happened” to her, to us, that these words, these three hour lunches didn’t “mean” she had allowed someone else, another man, into our private sanctuary. You’d understand my struggle with meaning, language, if you knew that I had a degree in philosophy and concentrated, wrote a thesis on Wittgenstein. Still, the meaning of a word is in the way it is used, and that’s hard to escape here, isn’t it?
> I did confront her, with an emotional torrent the likes of which I wouldn’t have imagined possible. I did not, however, tell her I knew about the texts. I wanted desperately to have HER tell me about them. From her perspective, I was just devastated about the realization that two, three hour lunches and a handful of gut feelings about it meant she had been unfaithful, to me. Even the thought of her having been seen with another man, for a three and a half hour lunch, at our favorite restaurant, horrified me. That’s what we do! I barely slept for days, honestly. She felt unbelievably awful, of course, that I was hurting so badly, but, she maintained that she had really done nothing wrong, per se. It was just lunch and talking and he was just a friend. As you might understand, it made it all the more difficult KNOWING the texts and hearing her insistence that she had done nothing wrong. I think she was aware in the causal sense that she was part of something that, in hindsight, hurt me terribly, but not in a way that she expressed could have been predicted. In other words, she wasn’t responsible for what had happened, just that something had happened and I felt terrible. It was clear to me and her that had she known about how I would react to “just lunches with an old friend” that she would have avoided the situation in the first place. In short, we were both in terrible pain, her feeling my pain, but in a sense it seemed she still couldn’t comprehend why I was so deeply hurt. I wondered if she had so compartmentalized this part of her world, that she herself was in such a state of denial over what “it” really was, that she was, in a sense, honestly confused.
> We did a great deal of talking, emotions and pain, my pain from what I felt was real, and her pain from what was my pain. I wanted her to tell
> me what it meant, and I wanted to know. For days this went on, my emotions only being magnified by my poor sleep and angst. I avoided directly asking her for the texts, I wanted her to offer them to me. If I wanted to know what this all meant, clearly she had to know that would offer me something of a window into things, some solace if there was nothing there, and confirmation if there was that I had reason to be concerned. I alluded to this several times in a way that I then knew she was avoiding talking about the texts. In fact, when I finally more or less came out and said it, that I wanted to see them, I could sense the panic in her. Again, this doesn’t answer the question completely where her mind was, whether she at some point acknowledged to herself the inappropriate nature of the texts and the lunches, but it made me distinctly aware that she knew now how hurtful they would be in the context of what she thought was only my feelings towards the lunches. Objectively, the lunches are far less troubling than the texts, I think you would agree.
> I didn’t ask for the texts again, and she never offered them up, preferring to avoid the subject. I’m sure she was suffering a great deal of internal conflict, wanting to be honest with me, as she believed she always was, and not wanting to make a bad situation worse.
> When push finally came to shove, and we agreed it was time to see the texts, we sat down and she showed them to me. Scrolling through them, it was painfully clear that she had “curated” them and sanitized/deleted everything that would have proved inappropriate, wrong. Even though at this point I expected her to do that, as she had already been dishonest with me, I thought, about the nature of things, it still crushed my soul. Here was the proof that she lied to me, the only time I believe she has ever done so, absolutely knowingly and with intent. I confronted her almost immediately and accused her of editing and curating them. She outright denied it, but she looked terrified and I felt devastated FOR HER and for me. I told her I had all the texts. She came clean, admitted she deleted texts, and she apologized. For some reason, she wouldn’t really explain why she had done it, instead only admitted they contained things that were “inappropriate”
> Interestingly, prior to her discovering that I knew about the texts, I had asked her, hypothetically, if I had been fine with her continued occasional lunches, would she have continued them. She said yes, because they were just friends and nothing was wrong with that, having lunch with a friend. This, even in light of what I had explained I had come to know about how emotional affairs come into existence, she insisted that “we” were different. We don’t follow other people’s conventional rules because we trust each other, she explained. I tried to impress upon her that these things creep up on you, and, at minimum, at least one participant ends up emotionally involved. A bad recipe just at that, even if it’s the “other” man or woman. Our nature is to make emotional attachments, as humans, and it’s even easier to have these run out of control when there is something of a prior depth to the relationship. Virtually everyone agrees that old boyfriends and girlfriends are to be avoided when you’re in a marriage. It’s intuitive!
> That discussion about whether she would have continued contact with him did reveal one little tidbit. She told me that at the end of their last lunch, he hugged her just a little bit too long. Not completely inappropriately, just vaguely so. Well, in light of what they’d been texting to each other, this would only be a natural progression. Even if she had inadvertently used language that wasn’t reflective of her “true” feelings, his reading on it was on target and consistent with any reasonable mind. It obviously wasn’t uncomfortable enough to elicit a verbal or written response and she was willing to meet with him still at that party a week or so later where she wanted to reconnect with another mutual friend from her high school circle.
> So, here I am, trying to sort this all out in my mind and hoping for as much guidance and wisdom from people here who have invested a great deal of time and effort into unpacking all this stuff. I’m struggling to grasp where this situation belongs in the universe of these sorts of things. Hell, even the use of the term “sweetheart” by him to her is worthy of some sort of attention, negative attention! At minimum it would cause a funny look by a husband or wife that is present when used referring to their spouse, right? Yeah, that’d be uncomfortable. Sweetheart.......I couldn’t imagine saying that to another woman when I’m married or even in a committed relationship, or even saying it to a woman who is!



Ok, I think you have done the right thing by confronting her. Although I am not sure I would have done it in the same way (testing if she would lie/defect/sanitise), but it’s done.

If I can say one thing (and I might be wrong): your picture of the situation might be that all of this happened consciously and in a calculated manner (from her point of view). But in reality, as you say, these things can creep up on you. A polite conversation can sometimes contain inappropriate sentences that look inappropriate with hindsight...but at the time felt fine.
That’s why I think comprehending these types of boundaries, either comes with experience or from education. And since we, in society, normally don’t see anything wrong with talking to the opposite sex about most stuff or even meeting in public places, I do think she probably just didn’t understand what it was slowly turning into...So for your own sanity, try to give her the benefit of the doubt.

I do think that after your conversations, she will see how it looks like from your perspective and distance herself more from her friend.

I would just avoid torturing her for it or looking for stuff that wasn’t there..your imagination will be your worst enemy now as you obviously went through a lot of turmoil yourself over it.

Anyway, I hope she pulls through ok, through this difficult period with her mother etc. These are exceptional circumstances. You guys will come out stronger on the other side.
Best


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tilted 1

QUOTE IMP, I am not sure that as a husband, it is reasonable to expect to fulfil the role for every single need the partner might have..." 
Well then this will redefines marriage to a whole new level. That why the spouse is to be the main source of support and not the very last. Respectfully
I agree to disagree agree.


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## The Middleman

Tilted 1 said:


> You are seeing some signs, she playing with fire and she's the fuel. Call M and say hey MF, if your lonely get a cat and dog don't contact my wife of my family ever again. And if you get a message to her and I find out we're doing some up close talking and I will the you this we ain't gonna hug. Because l don't give a ratsass about you, or your losses, talk to a counselor.
> 
> And the next time he offers a thought of alone time with your wife , tell him we're meeting for sure. And then show your wife the text you sent him and as her if she would like you to call him in person? And say the same you just texted him! What she does next will tell you alot. Let her know her life was just as good without him since December. And the he her friend wants to take it to the next level, and is playing her. And that you will not play the pick me game, and if your wife needs a friend get her her own dog. No reason for her to go there, unless she bringing the matches!
> 
> Take care of business, don't delay and WIMP OUT!
> Stand tall, and show them both your pair is much much larger than his, and will back it up.
> 
> SEMPER FI Man!!


 @*Physics*
The above post is about the best advice you are going to get from anywhere. I read both of your posts, and even though you had the "confrontation", you still need to follow the advice @*Tilted 1* gave, as uncomfortable as it may seem. My gut tells me that she will continue her "relationship" with her "friend" if you are not firm about the need for it to end immediately. Confronting the "friend" is also necessary.

I was in a similar situation to yours, although it seems that your wife is much further down the EA road with her "friend" than my wife was. The link to my situation is here:  https://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/296722-wife-contact-ex.html#post13913554

The point we are all trying to make is that you need to make sure they end their "friendship". Period.


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## 269370

Tilted 1 said:


> QUOTE IMP, I am not sure that as a husband, it is reasonable to expect to fulfil the role for every single need the partner might have..."
> 
> Well then this will redefine marriage to a whole new level. That why the spouse is to be the main source of support and not the very last.
> 
> I agree to disagree agree.



Maybe I wasn’t clear but I am not saying that the husband shouldn’t offer support for any and every issue the wife might have, I am saying that it is not always feasible. The guy went through the same thing with his mother, he offered help with the hospice, talked to people etc..you can see how this had some positive consequences for her and if I could take my ego out of the equation as the husband, I would welcome the help from the outside. 

Still...certain things have been said that she clearly regrets NOW, with hindsight.

If the husband studied philosophy, he probably has an understanding of how the human mind works (or doesn’t, sometimes). We are not computers, we make mistakes. Sometimes the moral compass does not detect or switches on quickly enough and we don’t have enough education when it comes to this particular topic. The term ‘emotional affair’ is something I was also not familiar with. I still think it’s somewhat a misnomer (it’s not an ‘affair’, but maybe an inappropriateness which should still be addressed, but it’s nowhere near the same thing as an actual affair. I know many will disagree). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tilted 1

@Physics said, even in light of what I had explained I had come to know about how emotional affairs come into existence, she insisted that “we” were different. We don’t follow other people’s conventional rules because we trust each other, she explained. 


Yeah, she's a special kind of snowflake.



InMyPrime said, l was also not familiar with. I still think it’s somewhat a misnomer (it’s not an ‘affair’, but maybe an inappropriateness which should still be addressed, but it’s nowhere near the same thing as an actual affair.

Maybe a single word may help " INTEREST" , 

I see a woman this way, before she would sleep with me ever is that she has interest in me, and proves that to me by desire attachment and sex. 

We see things differently but l am not of the younger generation, but of the old traditional one. And you know what l like the old generation much better than the one of the current favor of time. I am not saying that the old day we're without issues, but mostly everyone knew boundaries of what not to cross. 

I am not speaking for anyone but myself.


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## Physics

Thank you for the all helpful insights. I’m one who appreciates the unvarnished truth, if such a thing exists in this arena. It’s always a reflection of our individual experiences and the wisdom they provide us. I really value them, and I’ll try my best to respond to everyone and continue the dialogue. 

Also, apologies for the crazy long posts. Indentations to indicate a new paragraph are lost in the formatting by the forum. A jumbled mess of thoughts on screen it has become! 😱

As one forum member noted, I should make myself more emotionally available to my wife so that she is less likely to seek outside support. I’d like to imagine that I already do that and have always been that for her. That makes this all the more perplexing and troubling. We are truly blessed to be able to spend an incredible amount of time with one another, something we both treasure and tell each other often. We both work from home and our primary focus in life has been kids and our relationship. We’re the couple that constantly holds hands in public. We’ve literally never had what most couples would call a fight, never. Really. 
As another poster had mentioned, nice guys get walked on. Perhaps that’s true, generically. I’d agree to some extent that many women want the rebel type, the hard, masculine exterior with the golden heart and emotional access. Well, that describes me, to a T. I don’t even try, it’s who I am. I’m in fantastic shape, not to brag, just saying that, on the physical side, her friend is quite overweight and not a great looking guy. He’s quite bright, gifted, certainly, but then again, so am I. Both my wife and I would be among the dumb crowd at a Mensa conference, so whatever my deficits are, I can’t imagine objectively where they wouldn’t measure up to him. 

However, we all know that the fertilizer for many of these things is the newness, that buzz around the feeling we get when new emotional connections are being made with someone else. It’s neuro-chemical, it’s human. We’re designed to have it happen to us. Boundaries in our world outside of marriage are supposed to prevent the possibility of getting into that world and now I’m a firm believer in the zero tolerance for alone, “intimate” settings with anyone other than my wife. It’s not about trust, it’s about loving your spouse enough to not engage in risky behavior. 

Another little morsel that my wife briefly mentioned during one of the more emotionally pitched talks we had was that she had never felt like anyone had ever “pursued” her. Reading into this, it seems, she was telling me she never felt attractive. I sensed immediate discomfort that she had expressed this, so I didn’t push for more. I will later as we continue to work through all of this.

I think, especially as we age, hitting middle age, and particularly for women, they begin to feel unattractive. Sure, for many there’s the weight issues, etc, and for some, perhaps they never felt attractive or “pursued” and always wanted to be. Maybe that’s my wife, in her mind. On another thread I read how a wife said her husband’s attraction and nice comments about how she looked “didn’t mean very much” because he has to say those things, as her husband. A terrible thing to think and worse to say! This was in comparison to how she felt when a perfect stranger, on a train in Europe, who was putting the moves on this married woman, felt. Sad, terrible. The poor husband was crushed. 

Perhaps in the hours of conversation he was showering her with compliments. I know the text was rather pregnant with inappropriate things said, extolling her virtues, wanting to hug her, even acknowledging “crossing the line” and possibly making her uncomfortable. She welcomed it, at least in the texts, and offered it back to him.


----------



## OutofRetirement

Your wife still has feelings for him. She is not sorry she did it, but sorry you found out and got hurt. I wouldn't be so sure that this wouldn't relapse at some point. Did she tell him directly why she was ending it? And then he hugged her closely? If so, then I would say she said how much she cared about him but she had to end it because of your feelings. Not because she ended it because she wanted to end it. She was forced, he was told.

I don't believe in forcing anyone, threats, ultimatums. Which can be a fine line when you are truthfully saying "here's my boundary line, beyond that, I don't want to stay."

She disagrees with you about staying friends with him and the 3 1/2-hour lunches. I agree with you, appearances of that in YOUR restaurant, is more than a bit disrespectful to you.

Men and women are both humans, have a lot in common, but we have different bodies, different socializations, and when you read here, there are typical reasons for women and typical reasons for men, both the cheaters and the cheated upon. Has your wife told you why she liked 3-plus hour lunches with him, how it made her feel? Typically it is connection, feeling desired, feeling appreciated, feeling validated, feeling feminine, feeling beautiful, feeling SEXY. I don't see so much of that in the texts, and I wouldn't expect the in-person be much different verbally, but there is body language. Can you make her feel desired, feminine, sexy, beautiful? Sure, but that is mundane by now. It was more special when he said it, because he didn't have to, and wouldn't, unless he really felt it.

Mostly, though, the connection to high school makes one think of being sexy, beautiful, desired by the opposite sex, the ones who you wanted or who wanted you, we tend to remember the good things and not so much the bad. I think "we are different" is a dangerous idea if it means "we are immune" to the tragedies that could befall us. Who ever thinks their marriage will fail on the day of the wedding, though I think everyone knows that a lot of marriages will fail. Just not us, because we are special. Those other ones aren't.

Your wife loved him, she said it multiple times, and this feeling is not going to go away for a while. If ever. They have memories together, both high school, and now. She was forced to end it, or risk her marriage. On the bright side, she chose her marriage. On the bright side, she did keep some significant boundaries in place. I don't consider it an affair, though there was some inappropriateness. Her not wanting you to see the texts, and her deleting some of it, shows she agrees with you about how inappropriate it was.

If this had been an old platonic female friend from high school, would you be upset about the lunches and texts?


----------



## Physics

OutofRetirement said:


> Your wife still has feelings for him. She is not sorry she did it, but sorry you found out and got hurt. I wouldn't be so sure that this wouldn't relapse at some point. Did she tell him directly why she was ending it? And then he hugged her closely? If so, then I would say she said how much she cared about him but she had to end it because of your feelings. Not because she ended it because she wanted to end it. She was forced, he was told.
> 
> I don't believe in forcing anyone, threats, ultimatums. Which can be a fine line when you are truthfully saying "here's my boundary line, beyond that, I don't want to stay."
> 
> She disagrees with you about staying friends with him and the 3 1/2-hour lunches. I agree with you, appearances of that in YOUR restaurant, is more than a bit disrespectful to you.
> 
> Men and women are both humans, have a lot in common, but we have different bodies, different socializations, and when you read here, there are typical reasons for women and typical reasons for men, both the cheaters and the cheated upon. Has your wife told you why she liked 3-plus hour lunches with him, how it made her feel? Typically it is connection, feeling desired, feeling appreciated, feeling validated, feeling feminine, feeling beautiful, feeling SEXY. I don't see so much of that in the texts, and I wouldn't expect the in-person be much different verbally, but there is body language. Can you make her feel desired, feminine, sexy, beautiful? Sure, but that is mundane by now. It was more special when he said it, because he didn't have to, and wouldn't, unless he really felt it.
> 
> Mostly, though, the connection to high school makes one think of being sexy, beautiful, desired by the opposite sex, the ones who you wanted or who wanted you, we tend to remember the good things and not so much the bad. I think "we are different" is a dangerous idea if it means "we are immune" to the tragedies that could befall us. Who ever thinks their marriage will fail on the day of the wedding, though I think everyone knows that a lot of marriages will fail. Just not us, because we are special. Those other ones aren't.
> 
> Your wife loved him, she said it multiple times, and this feeling is not going to go away for a while. If ever. They have memories together, both high school, and now. She was forced to end it, or risk her marriage. On the bright side, she chose her marriage. On the bright side, she did keep some significant boundaries in place. I don't consider it an affair, though there was some inappropriateness. Her not wanting you to see the texts, and her deleting some of it, shows she agrees with you about how inappropriate it was.
> 
> If this had been an old platonic female friend from high school, would you be upset about the lunches and texts?


Yes, I believe you are correct to say that she still has feelings for him, of course. The struggle for me is the continuum, the relative nature of feelings. When the feelings appear to me to be trespassing in a place where they don’t belong or at an amplitude they don’t belong, there in lies the trouble. I have “feelings” for a platonic friend that are greater in amplitude than a stranger, that’s natural, normal, a good thing. 

I don’t, however, tell my platonic friends that I “completely adore them, and miss them” I also don’t use hearts, heart eyes, hearts and kisses, love, in texts to old friends who happen to be female, or old girlfriends for that matter. At a minimum, if I did consider them “just friends” I would worry, a LOT, about it being misunderstood as feelings that are not mine. From the friend “Setting aside some time for pure form” “sweet dreams” “shared the “rediscovery of you” “know you are in my thoughts” 😘

Anyone disagree? Wrong, wrong, wrong. 

A point of housekeeping, she apparently hasn’t told him anything, yet. She’s agreed to cut off all communication until we both determine how to address that end of things. The last “slightly inappropriate hug” was just at the end of their last lunch, that’s all.

As far as what my feelings would have been had it been an old female friend from high school. Well, in all honesty, if it had just been the three hour lunches, with no inappropriate texts, I wouldn’t have had a problem if I’d been offered to come along. If it appeared I was being excluded and that she wanted to be with her friend without me there specifically, that’s a problem, yes. If there had been the same texts, only with a female, it would be less hurtful because her bonds with men are different. It still would have been hard to digest in that she would be allowing another person into an emotional sphere that does not belong in a marriage. In short, it would have still been inappropriate, but possibly less of a threat to the sanctity of marriage. I’m not sure this feeling is entirely consistent, but it’s what I feel.


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## Robert22205

I suggest you both read: Not Just Friends by Dr Shirley Glass.

It’s based on researching couples that experienced infidelity and the ‘conventional’ rules/boundaries that were crossed along the way. After reading this book your wife will have a very difficult time justifying her relationship with the OM (or characterizing your relationship being different because it’s based on ‘trust’). 

You as a husband, can’t compete with the ‘high’ that your wife receives from another man’s fresh/exciting attention. That’s why she should have broke it off with the OM earlier – In order to protect your marriage (and herself from temptation).


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## Robert22205

You are 50% responsible for marriage issues but your wife is 100% responsible for coping with her mid life crisis by permitting/encouraging the OM’s attention. There are many alternative ways to deal with midlife crisis. Do not blame yourself for her inappropriate behavior. 

The OM appears to have been trying to seduce your wife using their family history as a hook to cross boundaries and connect emotionally. At some point your wife realized it (enjoyed being pursued) and was unwilling/unable to break it off (prior to you confronting her). 

IMO you have not over reacted and should take her EA very seriously. 

If the texts were inappropriate, it’s reasonable to assume that much of their recent face to face conversation was also inappropriate. 

Don’t assume that the emotional bond they formed is going to stop or normalize just because you confronted her. 

I suggest that one of the consequences of her deleting texts and lying to you is absolutely NC with the OM. If she disagrees (for any reason), then you have an ongoing affair to deal with.


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## sokillme

dadstartingover said:


> Passive, overly agreeable people get dumped on in all facets of life. The boss will take advantage of you at work, the friends will ask you for help but not be there for you when you need them, and the wife runs off with the sexy pool boy who still lives with his parents.
> 
> It's okay to be the a-hole for a few minutes and cause drama. In the long run, it benefits everyone.


I agree, though you don't have to be an a-hole, respect is expected period.


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## MEM2020

Well done Sir,

Your original post concerned me. Not because of the formatting, but rather because it seemed that you were in the emotional equivalent of a slow motion flat spin. Being disoriented, you became uncertain as to what mattered and what didn’t. Consequently you told us everything. But everything - included so much low value raw data that you might have unintentionally diluted the actual storyline. 

Your subsequent posts were completely different. They showed careful planning, and a determination to accurately assess her frame of mind. They also showed a willingness to have completely unfiltered conversation about her deception, and the aspects of this situation that are most troubling. 

Now for a couple words from our sponsor:
1. What do you say and do when your wife seems sad, depressed or angry? How much of your repertoire is directed at solving / resolving the source of her angst, as opposed to just being calm, present and supportive?

High IQ people aren’t always high EQ people. 

2. What do you do to hit your wife’s dopamine circuits? This matters - because the other man - he IS hitting her dopamine circuits. 

Tensor mathematics is all well and good but when it comes to passion, it’s hard to beat a sense of humor mixed with a high level of empathy. 




Physics said:


> Yes, I believe you are correct to say that she still has feelings for him, of course. The struggle for me is the continuum, the relative nature of feelings. When the feelings appear to me to be trespassing in a place where they don’t belong or at an amplitude they don’t belong, there in lies the trouble. I have “feelings” for a platonic friend that are greater in amplitude than a stranger, that’s natural, normal, a good thing.
> 
> I don’t, however, tell my platonic friends that I “completely adore them, and miss them” I also don’t use hearts, heart eyes, hearts and kisses, love, in texts to old friends who happen to be female, or old girlfriends for that matter. At a minimum, if I did consider them “just friends” I would worry, a LOT, about it being misunderstood as feelings that are not mine. From the friend “Setting aside some time for pure form” “sweet dreams” “shared the “rediscovery of you” “know you are in my thoughts” 😘
> 
> Anyone disagree? Wrong, wrong, wrong.
> 
> A point of housekeeping, she apparently hasn’t told him anything, yet. She’s agreed to cut off all communication until we both determine how to address that end of things. The last “slightly inappropriate hug” was just at the end of their last lunch, that’s all.
> 
> As far as what my feelings would have been had it been an old female friend from high school. Well, in all honesty, if it had just been the three hour lunches, with no inappropriate texts, I wouldn’t have had a problem if I’d been offered to come along. If it appeared I was being excluded and that she wanted to be with her friend without me there specifically, that’s a problem, yes. If there had been the same texts, only with a female, it would be less hurtful because her bonds with men are different. It still would have been hard to digest in that she would be allowing another person into an emotional sphere that does not belong in a marriage. In short, it would have still been inappropriate, but possibly less of a threat to the sanctity of marriage. I’m not sure this feeling is entirely consistent, but it’s what I feel.


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## Marc878

You know what you've got here. 

Just because you now know doesn't mean it'll end if they keep up contact.

You can't make her do a thing but you'd be well advised if she wants to stay in this it will be minus you.

I don't think you signed up for a wife who goes on dates with her boyfriend.

It's not complicated. It is just that simple.


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## Chaparral

Her lying is 100% a huge red flag. How did she explain lying to your face?

31/2 hour lunches aren't just friends they're dates. Were they also drinking?

Not being able to see the emojis (just random digits) I did not see much emotional context.

Did you go to the high school friends party too?

There is almost a one month gap and then this: 

(Friend) Saturday, 9/25/2019
Yesterday was fun catching up. I still enjoy our time together the best.

What is the context here? Another meeting, phone call?

How many calls have they made? Have you checked for "cheating apps" on her phone? Have you also checked emails in additions to the texts?

Most importantly, what did she specifically delete. The deleting and lying takes this directly into adultery. Until I read this I wasn't worried. This however veers into shocking territory.

How is she acting toward you? What has she promised to do about failing her vows and your marriage?


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## Tilted 1

Physics said, ............ it would be less hurtful because her bonds with men are different.

This is the mainframe and root to every issue you wife should end this friendship game, but no credit is due her. Because of her desire of continued contact. 

Stop it now, if she can not end it be her man and do it for her. Permanently and forever.


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## Diana7

Tilted 1 said:


> QUOTE IMP, I am not sure that as a husband, it is reasonable to expect to fulfil the role for every single need the partner might have..."
> Well then this will redefines marriage to a whole new level. That why the spouse is to be the main source of support and not the very last. Respectfully
> I agree to disagree agree.


Also, if one spouse does need a close friend to talk to, then someone of the same sex is appropriate and wont lead to anything wrong.


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## Diana7

On reading all this my thoughts are that she was well aware that this relationship and some of the things that were said and that happened were inappropriate. She was very reluctant to let you see their communication, and lied about them after changing some of them. She lied and deceived you, and that is dangerous. She KNEW that you wouldnt be happy and that she had over stepped the mark. How can we trust if our spouse lies?

One of my boundaries is that I would never have any sort of 'date' with a member of the opposite sex who wasn't a family member. It was foolish of her to keep on seeing him and it was foolish of you to refuse her initial invitation to go with her. 
I am sure she is well aware why you are not happy, and the least she can do is have no more contact and think about setting sensible boundaries in the future. All of us are capable of doing stupid things no matter how strong the marriage seems to be, as she has now shown. Hopefully she will learn from this and make some clear changes.


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## alte Dame

She knows that she was sliding down the slippery slope. She wouldn't have deleted texts otherwise.

I think you have to be firm here. This is an EA already, in my opinion. I'm one of the few women on this thread and it's my take that her language with him is already very intimate. She knows it and tried to hide it from you.

I don't think you can tell her your boundary is that she cuts off contact with him. I think these two would go underground and the relationship would progress. (Hell, she told you she liked to be pursued, so she knows this isn't just a friendship.)

I would insist that she very carefully read 'Not Just Friends,' by Glass. Make it clear that it is absolutely not OK that she continues to hurt you this way. It's not just about her feelings. She has to begin to understand what this does to the betrayed spouse.

Then you both agree that the contact will stop. This isn't a demand that you are forcing on her. Rather, it is a joint decision for the sake of your marriage that you are making after understanding the message of 'Not Just Friends.'

I believe this is already an EA. At the very least, the OM thinks he's in love with your wife. You need clear, firm action. No waffling.

If you can manage to get this far, then you need to agree on transparency and accountability going forward.

Sorry this is happening to you. It is very painful.


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## Physics

Chaparral said:


> Her lying is 100% a huge red flag. How did she explain lying to your face?
> 
> 31/2 hour lunches aren't just friends they're dates. Were they also drinking?
> 
> Not being able to see the emojis (just random digits) I did not see much emotional context.
> 
> Did you go to the high school friends party too?
> 
> There is almost a one month gap and then this:
> 
> (Friend) Saturday, 9/25/2019
> Yesterday was fun catching up. I still enjoy our time together the best.
> 
> What is the context here? Another meeting, phone call?
> 
> How many calls have they made? Have you checked for "cheating apps" on her phone? Have you also checked emails in additions to the texts?
> 
> Most importantly, what did she specifically delete. The deleting and lying takes this directly into adultery. Until I read this I wasn't worried. This however veers into shocking territory.
> 
> How is she acting toward you? What has she promised to do about failing her vows and your marriage?


Sorry for the confusion, the last texting date was incorrect. It was the day after the high school group get together, which was on Friday. I corrected the text string to 8/31/2019. Hope it didn’t cause too much confusion. I did not go to the gathering. 

As for the lying, she didn’t try to explain it, really. She just said she was very sorry, and that it was wrong to have “deleted” texts to deceive me. Deceive is my word, she just said it was wrong. In all honesty, she kind of shut down and I didn’t push her to explain. She really feels she failed me, even said so. She hasn’t been very good at sharing HER feelings, her frame of mind, her thoughts. It’s been lots of raw emotions, lots of tears. I know she’s hurting right now, so for a time, after many hours of tears and soul grinding hurt, we’ve decided to just be “normal” for a time and decompress. I think this is a good way to approach this.

By the way, is anyone else having trouble seeing the emojis in the text string? They certainly add something meaningful to the equation to understand.

As far as emails, no I haven’t looked, but I suspect it was mostly texts, lunches and some phone calls. 

While I agree that the lying about the texts takes it to another level, why do you say this takes it into the “adultery” category? An emotional affair is a form of mental adultery, of course, but I don’t see how the lying moves the needle into the category. It goes to intent, guilty mind, yes. 

I would agree and argued that a 3 hour lunch is a date. Regardless of intent or no intent to specifically cultivate a sexual relationship, spending that much time with a member of the opposite sex and sharing meaningful, deep, important and personal things is what couples do on dates. It is, simply put, the process, the building blocks of emotional connections and is inappropriate, per se.


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## Tilted 1

There from the mouth's of babes ( no pund intended) but females with common knowledge of how women think are getting down to the BRASS TACKS' listen and apply for your own best interest.


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## niceguy47460

The text about the party he was basically telling her not to bring you or the family and she was in total agreement . I think he was hoping she would be alone and could do more than just talk . I would say they may have done more than talk if you didn't go . I would also be worried about them talking on the phone . When they talk on the phone you wouldn't know what would be said and planned .

You also don't know what was talked about for 3 or more hours face to face . Since you confronted her you might want to keep a eye out for texting apps and email . I would be watching the phone bill to . 

These two have got way to close to just stop because you seen the text that she deleted .there may even been text she deleted right after reading and sent . The only way you will know is a text recovery app . Like fonelab . 

Did she act differently after the party ? They have a big connection from when they was younger and they even talked about it in one of the text . About how they hung out at each others house and how there parents was happy about them being together . And your wife even said that she wished they hadn't got disconnected after high school .

You better keep a good watch on the 2 of them . And her knowing where his house is , is a huge red flag she could just go see him when you are not with her .


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## TBT

Physics;19983817By the way said:


> This may help... hexadecimal. https://www.quackit.com/character_sets/emoji/emoji_v3.0/unicode_emoji_v3.0_characters_all.cfm


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## Tilted 1

Physics said :

While I agree that the lying about the texts takes it to another level, why do you say this takes it into the “adultery” category? An emotional affair is a form of mental adultery, of course, but I don’t see how the lying moves the needle into the category. It goes to intent, guilty mind, yes.

Ok Big P, ( friendly) l will give you my take " it's no longer a fantasy for her, she is playing this one out is the difference. And l do hope you mean by normal is your interaction with each other before they had the first lunch. And not a continuation of her treating M like her special friend.


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## Diana7

To add to my post, there is a good book called 'Hedges, loving your marriage enough to protect it'. Its by Jerry B Jenkins. He is a Christian but its applicable to everyone. 

If your wife is so sorry and so sad that she has hurt you, the very least she will want to do is to stop contact with him. If she doesn't then I would see that as a big red flag.


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## Marc878

@Diana7 is 100% correct ^^^^^^


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## Tilted 1

TBT said:


> This may help... hexadecimal. https://www.quackit.com/character_sets/emoji/emoji_v3.0/unicode_emoji_v3.0_characters_all.cfm


This should be a STICKY for sure, Great Job!!


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> Also, if one spouse does need a close friend to talk to, then someone of the same sex is appropriate and wont lead to anything wrong.


You’d be surprised...Have you never seen two women (or more) taking a shower together? For some reason, they all almost invariably end up making each other wet & soapy and clean each other in bald places where no man has gone before, to paraphrase Star Trek!....
Same-sex friendship does not guarantee faithfulness (though it can increase cleanliness). 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Physics

Diana7 said:


> To add to my post, there is a good book called 'Hedges, loving your marriage enough to protect it'. Its by Jerry B Jenkins. He is a Christian but its applicable to everyone.
> 
> If your wife is so sorry and so sad that she has hurt you, the very least she will want to do is to stop contact with him. If she doesn't then I would see that as a big red flag.


She has agreed to never see him again and cease all contact. She un-friended him on Facebook, but they had little to no communication there, apparently. She deleted the text string from her phone because she said she hated seeing his name when she looked at other texts. The only remaining element in play is how to address him, to let him know where this stands. She suggested that she write to him and she was against me meeting with him to discuss this matter. Interestingly, when she talked about writing to him, she sort of summarized the concept that there’s no place for him......at this time. I took that to mean SHE wanted to leave the door open for a future time, but she clarified that it was only to prevent it from being too traumatic for him. As I mentioned, he is apparently not doing well emotionally in general and she thought something too dark, hard and permanent would be too much for him. 

Regardless of the reasoning, it proves further that she cares for him. She’s trying to protect his feelings. I have to admit, it would make me feel terrible if he hurt himself if we could have prevented it by a different approach. I’m just speculating, I really have no idea what his state of mind is. One reading of his texts points to an emotionally manipulative, self-serving man who just wanted to have an emotional and sexual relationship with my wife. The other reading is a conflicted soul, who knew what he was doing trying to have a relationship with my wife, but also had his heart in the appropriate platonic place. In either case, he is responsible for crossing a line with her, many times. I will be planning on addressing that, in the future, in the most constructive way possible. That will involve a face-to-face meeting. It will be uncomfortable, but I want to hear what he has to say. It’s valuable, for me, for my wife, for our marriage.


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## Chaparral

Adultery?

I may be off here by count and can't see the emojis, what were they? Hearts? Others?

Three very,very long lunch dates. (Drinking?) One specifically mentioned that you weren't welcome at!!!!!! 

( My wife went to an after work office gathering and told me I wasn't invited to this one. When she came home a little tipsy about 9:00 PM, I told her the next time I wasn't invited her clothes would be on the front porch in garbage bags. It never happened again.)

She goes to a party of old class mates with him! Talk about a hot date! Why did you not go? Are you not familiar with the term c*** blocking?

She only lets you read her texts after she sanitizes them. Then lies. Straight to your face. She seems to be sorry she hurt you or is she sorry she got caught being pursued and leading the OM on?

Breaking one's vows over another man, putting her interest in him above you, trying to pretend things aren't what they are and lying to try and convince you.

Currently refusing to stop contact and not talking about it is rug sweeping an affair.

That's adultery in my book. The worst part is now you can only believe her if you independently verify what she says and does. That's the bomb she dropped on your lives.

Hope this doesn't seem personal but it is relevant. How was your sex life before, during and after this situation?


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## Robert22205

Does she think she failed you because she lied about deleting the texts or because she had an EA - or both???

You observe she is upset & crying. Don't assume the tears are for you. You know her better than I do and I can't tell from the posts....but usually when someone gets caught in an EA or PA they are initially upset that they got caught (vs how much pain they caused the spouse). 

Remorse for hurting their partner typically comes after they first acknowledge that their behavior was inappropriate.

Your wife said that she viewed your marriage as functioning on a high level of trust that is not restricted by conventional boundaries. 

Therefore, when you discuss the EA further (perhaps when discussing the book "Not Just Friends" ) I suggest you point out that her inappropriate texts, lengthy lunches, and especially the lying & deleting texts severely damaged your trust in her. She needs to take the initiative and do whatever is necessary to restore trust.

Finally, I think you caught the affair before it became physical. IMO (in spite of the tears) you will have to be alert to the possibility that they may go underground or stop for a while and start up again in six months. As a result of her inappropriate behavior, your wife should volunteer to a high level of transparency in her communications as well as her day to day activities (never turn off her phone, gps tracker, and offer passwords).


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## Tilted 1

Physics : . Interestingly, when she talked about writing to him, she sort of summarized the concept that there’s no place for him......at this time. I took that to mean SHE wanted to leave the door open for a future time, but she clarified that it was only to prevent it from being too traumatic for him.

Well friend or not has your wife crumbled because someone had treated her bad yet? No she hasn't.
If she wants the letter fine and dandy you proof read it and if you accept it. You both!! Go and mail it together it leaves no room for error make sure that the address is the correct one.

And yes if course the door is still open, this is blatant in your face. ( A syht sandwich if you may) 

And your concern is applauded makes you a good human being, but damn this is war for your wife, the hell with his traumatic state of mind. 

This is showing you as strong " And see where it gets you your wife accepted your strength" Kinda of awesome isn't it showing strength and without being abusive courage and strength will always take you to new place you never thought you would have to go.


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## Chaparral

Physics said:


> She has agreed to never see him again and cease all contact. She un-friended him on Facebook, but they had little to no communication there, apparently. She deleted the text string from her phone because she said she hated seeing his name when she looked at other texts. The only remaining element in play is how to address him, to let him know where this stands. She suggested that she write to him and she was against me meeting with him to discuss this matter. Interestingly, when she talked about writing to him, she sort of summarized the concept that there’s no place for him......at this time. I took that to mean SHE wanted to leave the door open for a future time, but she clarified that it was only to prevent it from being too traumatic for him. As I mentioned, he is apparently not doing well emotionally in general and she thought something too dark, hard and permanent would be too much for him.
> 
> Regardless of the reasoning, it proves further that she cares for him. She’s trying to protect his feelings. I have to admit, it would make me feel terrible if he hurt himself if we could have prevented it by a different approach. I’m just speculating, I really have no idea what his state of mind is. One reading of his texts points to an emotionally manipulative, self-serving man who just wanted to have an emotional and sexual relationship with my wife. The other reading is a conflicted soul, who knew what he was doing trying to have a relationship with my wife, but also had his heart in the appropriate platonic place. In either case, he is responsible for crossing a line with her, many times. I will be planning on addressing that, in the future, in the most constructive way possible. That will involve a face-to-face meeting. It will be uncomfortable, but I want to hear what he has to say. It’s valuable, for me, for my wife, for our marriage.


No contact is good but you have to watch now. 

Where did you get information about his emotional be so bad? I did not gather that from his texts.


----------



## MEM2020

Heck

If M2 reacted to some other guy in this manner - I’d really want to know if it was mainly the newness factor, or if he was doing stuff with her that she really wished I was doing. 




alte Dame said:


> She knows that she was sliding down the slippery slope. She wouldn't have deleted texts otherwise.
> 
> I think you have to be firm here. This is an EA already, in my opinion. I'm one of the few women on this thread and it's my take that her language with him is already very intimate. She knows it and tried to hide it from you.
> 
> I don't think you can tell her your boundary is that she cuts off contact with him. I think these two would go underground and the relationship would progress. (Hell, she told you she liked to be pursued, so she knows this isn't just a friendship.)
> 
> I would insist that she very carefully read 'Not Just Friends,' by Glass. Make it clear that it is absolutely not OK that she continues to hurt you this way. It's not just about her feelings. She has to begin to understand what this does to the betrayed spouse.
> 
> Then you both agree that the contact will stop. This isn't a demand that you are forcing on her. Rather, it is a joint decision for the sake of your marriage that you are making after understanding the message of 'Not Just Friends.'
> 
> I believe this is already an EA. At the very least, the OM thinks he's in love with your wife. You need clear, firm action. No waffling.
> 
> If you can manage to get this far, then you need to agree on transparency and accountability going forward.
> 
> Sorry this is happening to you. It is very painful.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

@Physics be vigilant. You can’t trust her right now. She knew damn good and well what she was doing. She has feelings for her old chum.
You are the third wheel in your relationship. Tell her if this **** happens again, you will serve divorce papers on her so fast she won’t know what hit her. Sir, you are way to flippant and passive about what transpired. He was trying to leverage you out of the picture, and move in for the kill. If it was me he and I would have a man to man discussion letting him know to stay the **** away from your wife.


----------



## MEM2020

While I completely understand the sentiment expressed below in NLLH’s post - I believe the tone to be warlike. 

Perhaps an alternative delivery style:

Wife, 
If you feel the need to continue pursuing a relation with TheOtherMan, you need to make a clean break by filing for divorce and then go do whatever you choose to do as a single person. Please understand that, if you begin to go that route, as much as I love you, I’m not going to sit here pining for your return. 

Only bad people ‘cake eat’ and confused as you are I need to know that you aren’t going to continue to enjoy the benefits of our marriage while pursuing another man. 





No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> @Physics be vigilant. You can’t trust her right now. She knew damn good and well what she was doing. She has feelings for her old chum.
> You are the third wheel in your relationship. Tell her if this **** happens again, you will serve divorce papers on her so fast she won’t know what hit her. Sir, you are way to flippant and passive about what transpired. He was trying to leverage you out of the picture, and move in for the kill. If it was me he and I would have a man to man discussion letting him know to stay the **** away from your wife.


----------



## Marc878

Physics said:


> She has agreed to never see him again and cease all contact. She un-friended him on Facebook, but they had little to no communication there, apparently. She deleted the text string from her phone because she said she hated seeing his name when she looked at other texts. The only remaining element in play is how to address him, to let him know where this stands. She suggested that she write to him and she was against me meeting with him to discuss this matter. Interestingly, when she talked about writing to him, she sort of summarized the concept that there’s no place for him......at this time. I took that to mean SHE wanted to leave the door open for a future time, but she clarified that it was only to prevent it from being too traumatic for him. As I mentioned, he is apparently not doing well emotionally in general and she thought something too dark, hard and permanent would be too much for him.
> 
> It's best to do a clean, final and permanent break. Does he matter more than you? Id be speaking my thoughts here. It is your marriage too, isn't it?
> 
> Regardless of the reasoning, it proves further that she cares for him. She’s trying to protect his feelings. I have to admit, it would make me feel terrible if he hurt himself if we could have prevented it by a different approach. I’m just speculating, I really have no idea what his state of mind is. One reading of his texts points to an emotionally manipulative, self-serving man who just wanted to have an emotional and sexual relationship with my wife. The other reading is a conflicted soul, who knew what he was doing trying to have a relationship with my wife, but also had his heart in the appropriate platonic place. In either case, he is responsible for crossing a line with her, many times. I will be planning on addressing that, in the future, in the most constructive way possible. That will involve a face-to-face meeting. It will be uncomfortable, but I want to hear what he has to say. It’s valuable, for me, for my wife, for our marriage.


To simplify he knew exactly what he was doing. Although your wife is the bigger problem. She's not that naive either. 

Is he married?


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

MEM2020 said:


> While I completely understand the sentiment expressed below in NLLH’s post - I believe the tone to be warlike.
> 
> Perhaps an alternative delivery style:
> 
> Wife,
> If you feel the need to continue pursuing a relation with TheOtherMan, you need to make a clean break by filing for divorce and then go do whatever you choose to do as a single person. Please understand that, if you begin to go that route, as much as I love you, I’m not going to sit here pining for your return.
> 
> Only bad people ‘cake eat’ and confused as you are I need to know that you aren’t going to continue to enjoy the benefits of our marriage while pursuing another man.


Respectfully, my FWW had a PA four years ago, we are in R. Warlike? Hardly, I prefer to call it strong and forceful. I drove home the point to my wife as she got the message. You cannot be a nice guy in these situations. Damn, the other man was trying to worm his way into her pants, and she was headed in his direction. 

Women respect strength not passivity. I speak from experience sir.:wink2:


----------



## PreRaph

Robert22205 said:


> Does she think she failed you because she lied about deleting the texts or because she had an EA - or both???
> 
> You observe she is upset & crying. Don't assume the tears are for you. .


Precisely. I'd bet my bottom dollar that she's crying for him, not you. It's limerance. She was on a high and now she's facing the gloomy fact of losing the relationship that gave her that high. 

It's a hard pill to swallow but it needs to be swallowed nonetheless if you really want to know where you stand.


----------



## Malaise

Marc878 said:


> To simplify he knew exactly what he was doing. Although your wife is the bigger problem. She's not that naive either.


She knew what she was doing.


----------



## MEM2020

It’s hard to disagree with that. 




No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> Respectfully, my FWW had a PA four years ago, we are in R. Warlike? Hardly, I prefer to call it strong and forceful. I drove home the point to my wife as she got the message. You cannot be a nice guy in these situations. Damn, the other man was trying to worm his way into her pants, and she was headed in his direction.
> 
> Women respect strength not passivity. I speak from experience sir.:wink2:


----------



## Decorum

Physics said:


> She has agreed to never see him again and cease all contact. She un-friended him on Facebook, but they had little to no communication there, apparently. She deleted the text string from her phone because she said she hated seeing his name when she looked at other texts. The only remaining element in play is how to address him, to let him know where this stands. She suggested that she write to him and she was against me meeting with him to discuss this matter. Interestingly, when she talked about writing to him, she sort of summarized the concept that there’s no place for him......at this time. I took that to mean SHE wanted to leave the door open for a future time, but she clarified that it was only to prevent it from being too traumatic for him. As I mentioned, he is apparently not doing well emotionally in general and she thought something too dark, hard and permanent would be too much for him.
> 
> Regardless of the reasoning, it proves further that she cares for him. She’s trying to protect his feelings. I have to admit, it would make me feel terrible if he hurt himself if we could have prevented it by a different approach. I’m just speculating, I really have no idea what his state of mind is. One reading of his texts points to an emotionally manipulative, self-serving man who just wanted to have an emotional and sexual relationship with my wife. The other reading is a conflicted soul, who knew what he was doing trying to have a relationship with my wife, but also had his heart in the appropriate platonic place. In either case, he is responsible for crossing a line with her, many times. I will be planning on addressing that, in the future, in the most constructive way possible. That will involve a face-to-face meeting. It will be uncomfortable, but I want to hear what he has to say. It’s valuable, for me, for my wife, for our marriage.


Be careful about meeting with him, especially with your wife there. 

The few times I have seen this done here it has proved to be more damaging than helpful.

It was not just uncomfortable, but unhealthy. 

One guy looked right past the husband and said, "I thought we were building something here".

In the unlikely event he is even honest about his intentions, or even self aware enough to identify them, his motives don't matter.

You are not married to him, he did not make vows to you.

We normally recommend a no contact letter.
Short and to the point, with no regret, or secret messages about how much he means to her.

"I never meant to cross the line with another man, to have romantic feelings for someone 
else, and endanger my marriage", type stuff.

As a starting point, "My purpose with this communications is to let you know that I am ending all contact with you. Please do not try to contact me in any way. 

I realize I was grieving, needy and vulnerable, and reached out, and crossed some lines that I have always believed in, and respected in my marriage, and others.

I wish you well, and hope you will respect the no contact I am putting in place.

Regards, 
"Notyourgirl""

Short and to the point.

People are designed to meet and mate fairly quickly . If we let someone meet our needs we will likely fall in love with them.

That is why good boundaries are important.
We can become vulnerable. How we handle it is a matter of our character.


----------



## [email protected]

Physics, I'll be candid. You are her Plan B. No, she's in the same place as when you found out. That's what I discern from your posts. The POSOM is her main concern still!


----------



## OutofRetirement

Physics said:


> By the way, is anyone else having trouble seeing the emojis in the text string? They certainly add something meaningful to the equation to understand.


I could not see the emojis. In another post you mentioned emojis expressing hearts, hearts eyes, and hearts and kisses. As you stated, that takes it to another level. It was inappropriate before knowing that, but the emojis are perhaps, to me, the most damning "evidence" that something is romantic. 

Damn emojis.

My wife's texts included "sweet dreams" and plenty of those damn emojis with kisses and hearts.


----------



## SunCMars

Those heart emoji's, umm?

Your wife is one of those rare women whose heart can beat for two men.

His half of her heart's rhythm received the oxygen rich blood, you received the depleted flow.

The OM suckled brightly from her arteries, you were sustained from those depleted lesser veins.

He got the nutrients, you got her left over waste products.

He was kept vibrant, you were merely kept alive.



The Typist I-


----------



## 269370

SunCMars said:


> Those heart emoji's, umm?
> 
> Your wife is one of those rare women whose heart can beat for two men.
> 
> His half of her heart's rhythm received the oxygen rich blood, you received the depleted flow.
> 
> The OM suckled brightly from her arteries, you were sustained from those depleted lesser veins.
> 
> He got the nutrients, you got her left over waste products.
> 
> He was kept vibrant, you were merely kept alive.
> 
> 
> 
> The Typist I-




Who are you, Dracula ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SunCMars

I see this whole thing as a competition for her heart.

Both of you offered up words. Copious words.
The lady likes to talk and listen.

Your's were precise, cool and methodical, droning on, maybe somewhat melodic.

His were warmer, and more basic.

His words squirreled into her heart, your's rattled her cerebrum. 
She likely, instinctively, turns your words off in her mind.

He tickled her frontal temporal lobes. Warmed those parietal knobs of hers.

Your Broca center seems afire, her AP's likely glows warmly, and does not burn her sensibilities.


----------



## OutofRetirement

As you said, the long lunches are like black holes - you don't know what was said. My opinion is that what they talked about was more of the same from the texts. I misunderstood that the hug was a final goodbye hug, but you clarified it was just a goodbye-until-next-time hug because your wife didn't mention it was over.

I think you have a very good handle on what was and is going on. Trust your gut. You have good instincts. We all were blindsided when it first happened, especially those of us who never saw anything similar for 10-plus years and everything else in the marriage was fine.

I agree there is some confusion as to whether this guy is a manipulator who wants to get in her pants or he is a confused individual who is yearning for love in the wrong place. My take is that both your wife and the other man could easily have escalated this much, much sooner, given that your wife opened the door to it early on with inappropriate texts and emojis, and he did the same. Either of them could have furthered the romantic and sexual side of it, but neither did. And you said they never were romantically or sexually together, just good friends, in high school. Yet the texts prove that they were flirting with that line, over and over. The odds were, and are, that they would step over that line to further escalate in the future. As it was, they had reached the point that both of them knew that it was inappropriate, and you would rightfully be hurt if you saw their texts, and likely their lunches. It was more than friends yet not quite a couple. Floating in the couple direction.

I think you should have shown more interest when it first started. At that point, you were invited. I think you not wanting to do a few things that, in retrospect, was important for your wife. You thought that she was like a rock, that she was impenetrable to advances from men, but she was not.

The emojis are a key part of the texts, but also, as much or more, what is NOT in the texts are just as important. There was nothing there about how happy and strong your marriage was, and little about you. 

I suggest that your wife should send a written message to him, that you should see first, ending the relationship with him. The message should say that she and he stepped over the line, she loves you and is in love with you, you are by far the most important person in her life, and she wants no more contact from him ever. Ending with Sincerely, Her Name. Period, the end. No flowery conclusions. Your wife is going to want a book, explaining all the ins and outs of her feelings and fondness and as you have seen already, giving the impression that she is leaving open the door.

I believe your wife will call him or meet with him without you knowing anyway - for "closure" (which never closes anything). Based on what I've seen about similar strong-feeling "affairs," I put the odds at your wife letting him know how she treasures his friendship and how she wishes it could be different and leaving him the impression that someday they might be friends again at about 90%. I put the odds that she will need to re-contact him for some insignificant (to you) reasons several other times beyond that at about 50% (e.g., asking him about his parent, child, the name of some mutual friend she promised to give him, etc.). It may fade away after that if she and he are no longer watering that garden, the flowers will wither away - or they may start watering the garden again, which you will be able to see it. It takes a lot of watering to make the flowers grow.

I would not bother talking with him at all. It is done, and he will tell you that he only wanted a friend. It is a waste of time. He will not know what is going on inside your wife's head. You would get better information by talking with the waiters at your restaurant, though I don't recommend talking with them, either.


----------



## GoldenR

I'm late to this...

Just be prepared, sir...bc if you keep a cheater after they've cheated on you, they'll cheat on you again bc you've shown them they can and you'll not leave. 

And make no mistake...your wife IS a cheater.


----------



## SunCMars

InMyPrime said:


> Who are you, Dracula ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Um....

Mere, descriptive figures of speech, not any desecrating figures from Transylvania.

#MeNeither


----------



## SunCMars

Malaise said:


> She knew what she was doing.


She so loved this new feeling. With him.
Another soul meeting her level of pain.

With sickness and tragedy all about her, he cuddled so nicely her woes.

He distracted her from her troubles, attracted her so as he filled her hope bubbles.

I see this as opportunist behavior on OM's part. 

He found a sick wedge to push you away, the flip side, a sick magnet to draw her in close.


She does possess boundless empathy, but it borders not on Check Slovakia.

Oh yes, this is on her too.

She certainly enjoyed of it, toyed with it, felt the burn, the tug of love.



TT I-


----------



## Diana7

InMyPrime said:


> You’d be surprised...Have you never seen two women (or more) taking a shower together? For some reason, they all almost invariably end up making each other wet & soapy and clean each other in bald places where no man has gone before, to paraphrase Star Trek!....
> Same-sex friendship does not guarantee faithfulness (though it can increase cleanliness).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope never seen 2 women taking a shower together and never known a woman who would want to do that. I have known many who have good friends they confide in.


----------



## Robert22205

This isn't mentioned in your posts. Did she kiss him on the lips when greeting or saying good bye? (not even once?)

I'm sorry but IMO the NC letter (with an open door) is a red flag - their EA is likely to start again in 6 months or later. 
Your wife should agree to notify you of any contact or attempted contact going forward (even if she thinks you'll over react). 

Focus on your wife's actions (not her tears and drama). Her reluctance to make a clean break (by leaving the door open in the future) are 'actions' that reveal her mindset (hoping to resume contact with the OM). In addition, the open door language encourages the OM to try again and again and again .... (and your wife has already shown she's vulnerable to enjoying his attention).

Her focus on the OM's emotional state and reluctance to firmly shut off all contact forever indicates that your wife is still not prioritizing her marriage over the OM. Her concern for the OM overlooks the damage to her marriage (trust) - and pain she caused (and is still causing) her husband. 

In view of her inappropriate behavior (including hiding the extent of their relationship), she needs to understand that her assessment of the OM's emotions is no longer reliable. Her concern for the OM's emotional state was the justification to violate conventional boundaries and embark on her EA. 

It's also a red flag because your wife may use her concern for his emotional state to hide further contact from you.

Plus I suspect she's using 'concern' for his mental health to manipulate/guilt you into being soft with the OM. 

Finally, are either of you guys therapists or medical doctors? Why are you attempting to 'treat' this guy. She should firmly go NC and refer him to a qualified IC. If he's depressed, he needs medical help - not some amateur from his childhood.

I suggest your wife needs IC to address: Why she would risk her marriage and damage her husbands trust? Why she needs this man's attention? And why she was able to deceive you.


----------



## Diana7

Physics said:


> She has agreed to never see him again and cease all contact. She un-friended him on Facebook, but they had little to no communication there, apparently. She deleted the text string from her phone because she said she hated seeing his name when she looked at other texts. The only remaining element in play is how to address him, to let him know where this stands. She suggested that she write to him and she was against me meeting with him to discuss this matter. Interestingly, when she talked about writing to him, she sort of summarized the concept that there’s no place for him......at this time. I took that to mean SHE wanted to leave the door open for a future time, but she clarified that it was only to prevent it from being too traumatic for him. As I mentioned, he is apparently not doing well emotionally in general and she thought something too dark, hard and permanent would be too much for him.
> 
> Regardless of the reasoning, it proves further that she cares for him. She’s trying to protect his feelings. I have to admit, it would make me feel terrible if he hurt himself if we could have prevented it by a different approach. I’m just speculating, I really have no idea what his state of mind is. One reading of his texts points to an emotionally manipulative, self-serving man who just wanted to have an emotional and sexual relationship with my wife. The other reading is a conflicted soul, who knew what he was doing trying to have a relationship with my wife, but also had his heart in the appropriate platonic place. In either case, he is responsible for crossing a line with her, many times. I will be planning on addressing that, in the future, in the most constructive way possible. That will involve a face-to-face meeting. It will be uncomfortable, but I want to hear what he has to say. It’s valuable, for me, for my wife, for our marriage.


I honestly don't understand what your wife is saying. All she needs to do is to say that the relationship over stepped the mark and for that reason she will not be seeing him again or having any contact. That's not cruel, its merely honest. At the moment she is putting him and his feelings before yours. By saying that she cant see him 'at this time', she is keeping things open for future contact and that is unacceptable. Its also giving him false hopes. I wouldn't accept that at all. You need to be able to say what you want her to say and that is that all contact must stop.Period. She still cant seem to see how dangerous the situation was and how much it upset you and risked the marriage. She still seems unrepentant.


----------



## Chaparral

For the amount of time covered, the number of texts was not that high. However, her reaction totally crushes the scales. Even lying about what you did see makes me wonder if there was more. Phone calls, meetings, were all 3 1/2 hours spent in the restaurant, what went on at the party? Did they stay at the party, leave it early?

I don't mean to add fuel to the fire but things do not seem to add up. As is often said here, when things do not add up, you do not have the whole story.

By the way, specifically excluding you from the second lunch is alarming after inviting you to the first date.

Trust your gut feelings.


----------



## Physics

Chaparral said:


> For the amount of time covered, the number of texts was not that high. However, her reaction totally crushes the scales. Even lying about what you did see makes me wonder if there was more. Phone calls, meetings, were all 3 1/2 hours spent in the restaurant, what went on at the party? Did they stay at the party, leave it early?
> 
> I don't mean to add fuel to the fire but things do not seem to add up. As is often said here, when things do not add up, you do not have the whole story.
> 
> By the way, specifically excluding you from the second lunch is alarming after inviting you to the first date.
> 
> Trust your gut feelings.


To clarify, I was never explicitly excluded from any of the lunches or the party. There’s always that vague implication that goes unsaid where the third person who’s not a friend of one of the friends would make the time slightly strained, awkward. Third wheel? For the party, it was only practical that I stay home and stay with the kids as it ran past their bedtime. 

To the assertion that more may have happened at that party, even just judging solely by the last text, where he said he really enjoyed the party but especially liked their alone time (lunches) best, it’s apparent that nothing happened. That and I know, really know, that my wife would never cross that line. I’d bet my life on it. That may sound foolish and naive to people who have been burned and thought the same thing, but I do have a belief to my core that she wouldn’t cross that line. 

Physical lines are easy to see, they’re bright, red lines that nobody can claim ignorance to. One can not deceive ones self into believing a physical affair, that physical boundary, even kissing someone else isn’t crossing the line. 

However, as we are all too familiar with, that slow, easy, natural slide into the emotional realm is a different animal when proper boundaries aren’t well defined in advance. It doesn’t absolve someone of responsibility at some point when it should be obvious, when it IS obvious, that emotional boundaries have been crossed and inappropriate communication and feelings continue. I still struggle with her state of mind, really. 

Contrary to the pessimists here, she really is devastated, truly down to the fibers, that she hurt me and failed me. She’s said it, many times. To a certain extent, I think she wishes at some level to cling to some denial at what the texts and meetings meant, preferring to have them relegated to “just friends” and not rising to the level where a reasonable mind would infer something more inappropriate. In the beginning, before she knew that I knew about the texts, she insisted that she had done nothing wrong. Insisting that she couldn’t apologize to me because she really felt it, really, that she had done nothing wrong. I know the mind is a powerful thing and that accepting that she had done something wrong at that point would have been an admission that would be extremely painful. Perhaps it’s a form of self deception, insulating herself from the pain that admitting “wrong” or “inappropriate” would bring. Has anyone here who has known this from being in her shoes ever experienced this?


----------



## Robert22205

Don't forget to focus on her actions (like proposing to leave the door open for future contact with the OM). As her spouse, it's natural for you to feel sorry for your wife. But don't let yourself be blindsided or feel her self proclaimed remorse is enough consequence for her behavior (and she'll never contact the OM again).


----------



## Tilted 1

Physics said:


> To clarify, I was never explicitly excluded from any of the lunches or the party. There’s always that vague implication that goes unsaid where the third person who’s not a friend of one of the friends would make the time slightly strained, awkward. Third wheel? For the party, it was only practical that I stay home and stay with the kids as it ran past their bedtime.
> 
> To the assertion that more may have happened at that party, even just judging solely by the last text, where he said he really enjoyed the party but especially liked their alone time (lunches) best, it’s apparent that nothing happened. That and I know, really know, that my wife would never cross that line. I’d bet my life on it. That may sound foolish and naive to people who have been burned and thought the same thing, but I do have a belief to my core that she wouldn’t cross that line.
> 
> Physical lines are easy to see, they’re bright, red lines that nobody can claim ignorance to. One can not deceive ones self into believing a physical affair, that physical boundary, even kissing someone else isn’t crossing the line.
> 
> However, as we are all too familiar with, that slow, easy, natural slide into the emotional realm is a different animal when proper boundaries aren’t well defined in advance. It doesn’t absolve someone of responsibility at some point when it should be obvious, when it IS obvious, that emotional boundaries have been crossed and inappropriate communication and feelings continue. I still struggle with her state of mind, really.
> 
> Contrary to the pessimists here, she really is devastated, truly down to the fibers, that she hurt me and failed me. She’s said it, many times. To a certain extent, I think she wishes at some level to cling to some denial at what the texts and meetings meant, preferring to have them relegated to “just friends” and not rising to the level where a reasonable mind would infer something more inappropriate. In the beginning, before she knew that I knew about the texts, she insisted that she had done nothing wrong. Insisting that she couldn’t apologize to me because she really felt it, really, that she had done nothing wrong. I know the mind is a powerful thing and that accepting that she had done something wrong at that point would have been an admission that would be extremely painful. Perhaps it’s a form of self deception, insulating herself from the pain that admitting “wrong” or “inappropriate” would bring. Has anyone here who has known this from being in her shoes ever experienced this?


Big P, as I read your response, denial is still your forefront, mode " She knew she did wrong because of her text before she knew you found out" "and when she changed the text after she knew you found out about the text".Most think that. But it's always starts with "Not my Girl" you can read post after post from betrayed spouses, it's the shock of it all. I know you may truly believe that, but as you have painted the picture with her time line of sorts unfolds a different story. This is why your here, we assist you in keeping your head clear but as with denial we fall back to our default mode. I know it shakes a person to their core, and then we lie to ourselves thinking l really want this just to go away. We know that, but this is the reason why you get the same advice over and over.

It is not to hurt you, but rather to open the eyes of your love for her. Time will continue to pass, and at some point you will make the decision to accept what is said here or not. Holding a loved ones feet to the fire is not pleasant task, but a necessary one. Do find your strength here and apply it. Sometimes what we think is best isn't. You are fighting a good fight but putting her motives above yours is unfair to you. And if she accepts your new boundaries as it comes from your love, she will see it in a different light. If she chooses you over her less than fancy kibble feeder. You need to change and be that guy who is heads above him.

Tilted


----------



## alte Dame

She knows what she has done. She's dancing as fast as she can right now to set things right, but she has created a situation that makes her feel responsible, desperate, and guilty on all fronts.

First, she encouraged and enthusiastically nurtured a relationship with another man.

Second, she let it develop into a personal, intimate relationship that excluded you. The fact that she knows this is illustrated by the deleted texts. She knows. She knew.

Third, her relationship with him is of such a nature now that she feels responsible for him generally and his state of mind specifically.

Fourth, now that she knows you know the extent of what she has been doing, she understands that her primary responsibility is to you.

But, she is deeply conflicted because she feels responsible for him. She knows that the right thing for the marriage is cutting him out, but believes that a decent person wouldn't do that to him.

What she has to understand, in my opinion, is that she has put herself in the position of having to do the cruel thing to him in order to do the right thing by you.

She got herself here. Sometimes we can't feel good about the solutions to problems in our lives. She created this problem and there is no fix to it that doesn't hurt everyone involved. For now, allaying OP's hurt and rebuilding trust with him is paramount. It is a zero sum game that she will have to accept - to do right by her husband means that she does the hard thing with her OM.


----------



## Malaise

This site is littered with posts by people who 'knew' their SOs would never betray them, until they did.


----------



## Robert22205

Your wife's reaction to being exposed is pretty typical: it's damage control.

I recall you posting initially that their relationship 'started' on your birthday. That she suggested you and the kids visit him at his office to see the new technology he's working on (as a treat for you?). During the visit she and the OM stood apart and chatted between themselves.

If there was rare contact prior to your birthday, how was your wife aware of the new technology the OM was currently working on???
Why would the OM be inside her head at all (especially on your birthday)?

Do you know the date of her most recent contact with him prior to your birthday?


----------



## Malaise

alte Dame said:


> She knows what she has done. She's dancing as fast as she can right now to set things right, but she has created a situation that makes her feel responsible, desperate, and guilty on all fronts.
> 
> First, she encouraged and enthusiastically nurtured a relationship with another man.
> 
> Second, she let it develop into a personal, intimate relationship that excluded you. The fact that she knows this is illustrated by the deleted texts. She knows. She knew.
> 
> Third, her relationship with him is of such a nature now that she feels responsible for him generally and his state of mind specifically.
> 
> Fourth, now that she knows you know the extent of what she has been doing, she understands that her primary responsibility is to you.
> 
> But, she is deeply conflicted because she feels responsible for him. She knows that the right thing for the marriage is cutting him out, but believes that a decent person wouldn't do that to him.
> 
> What she has to understand, in my opinion, is that she has put herself in the position of having to do the cruel thing to him in order to do the right thing by you.
> 
> She got herself here. Sometimes we can't feel good about the solutions to problems in our lives. She created this problem and there is no fix to it that doesn't hurt everyone involved. For now, allaying OP's hurt and rebuilding trust with him is paramount. It is a zero sum game that she will have to accept - to do right by her husband means that she does the hard thing with her OM.


Well said.


----------



## 269370

Physics said:


> To clarify, I was never explicitly excluded from any of the lunches or the party. There’s always that vague implication that goes unsaid where the third person who’s not a friend of one of the friends would make the time slightly strained, awkward. Third wheel? For the party, it was only practical that I stay home and stay with the kids as it ran past their bedtime.
> 
> To the assertion that more may have happened at that party, even just judging solely by the last text, where he said he really enjoyed the party but especially liked their alone time (lunches) best, it’s apparent that nothing happened. That and I know, really know, that my wife would never cross that line. I’d bet my life on it. That may sound foolish and naive to people who have been burned and thought the same thing, but I do have a belief to my core that she wouldn’t cross that line.
> 
> Physical lines are easy to see, they’re bright, red lines that nobody can claim ignorance to. One can not deceive ones self into believing a physical affair, that physical boundary, even kissing someone else isn’t crossing the line.
> 
> However, as we are all too familiar with, that slow, easy, natural slide into the emotional realm is a different animal when proper boundaries aren’t well defined in advance. It doesn’t absolve someone of responsibility at some point when it should be obvious, when it IS obvious, that emotional boundaries have been crossed and inappropriate communication and feelings continue. I still struggle with her state of mind, really.
> 
> Contrary to the pessimists here, she really is devastated, truly down to the fibers, that she hurt me and failed me. She’s said it, many times. To a certain extent, I think she wishes at some level to cling to some denial at what the texts and meetings meant, preferring to have them relegated to “just friends” and not rising to the level where a reasonable mind would infer something more inappropriate. In the beginning, before she knew that I knew about the texts, she insisted that she had done nothing wrong. Insisting that she couldn’t apologize to me because she really felt it, really, that she had done nothing wrong. I know the mind is a powerful thing and that accepting that she had done something wrong at that point would have been an admission that would be extremely painful. Perhaps it’s a form of self deception, insulating herself from the pain that admitting “wrong” or “inappropriate” would bring. Has anyone here who has known this from being in her shoes ever experienced this?



I seem to be in the minority here...But I feel you are in danger of deepening yourself into the Anthony Hopkins character (Fracture, if you haven’t seen it, I recommend).

Your wife hasn’t slept with the guy nor made any promises of eternal love in her texts.

Unless you fundamentally disagree with the idea that a woman is allowed to have a friendship with the opposite sex (many do, which is fine and it’s their prerogative but I don’t presume this is something you have actively discussed with her), it is entirely possible that it has only occurred to her how inappropriate some of the texts were, AFTER she looked at them again through YOUR eyes.

Let me offer an alternative view - and I know you are not going to like it, as this thread seems to be more about confirmation on a scenario, that has already been pre-decided.

You are hurt because your wife turned to someone else for comfort during this difficult time for her. As a husband, you have a right to be hurt but let’s call it what it is and not what it isn’t: it isn’t an affair and it isn’t (technically) infidelity. My advice is not to expend your energies to find ways to punish her, but next time to be there for her (I am not saying you weren’t, this time).

It will in the end simply come down to how much punishment will she need to endure from you, in order for you to be able to get over it.

I am not saying you are over-reacting, but I worry, given the responses, that you are going to drive yourself and your marriage more into the ground by assigning intentions and thoughts to her, that she did not (consciously) have at the time. People make mistakes. You are digging into her brain hoping to find something that may not be there. 

It’s most likely very simple: she didn’t think she did anything wrong at the time and acted in good faith, trying to be a good friend and reciprocating the other person’s kindness. There is nothing in the messages that indicate any sexual interest or plans to escape and ride into the sunset together or anything like that.
You are going to drive yourself mad and she will just be miserable for the rest of her life. Be careful.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mickybill

A few thoughts about this situation.

I can't see the emojis so the feelings of the texts could be amplified by kisses, hearts and eggplants. There were a lot of excited "!!!" sort of like high school GF and BF.
He is giving her the attention that makes her feel desired...no offense but maybe you could use less words and more action?

Deleting and editing the texts is like throwing the bag of money and the gun out the car window when the cops turn on the red and blue lights. She wanted to hide the evidence but you know that. And she didn;t know what you know, so she was perfectly willing to lie, and protect her and her x-maybe-future BF.

If you want to, you could check the phone records to see if there were phone calls in addition to the occasional texts. There may be a few dozens or in the case of my XWW a call every day or so on her commute home. I really don't know what they could talk about 30-40 minutes almost everyday, but they did.

I think he is playing the long game, and many years after high school what's another 6-18 months. Given an opening he will wait. And the "not at this time" is that opening. Is she usually trusting and naive? They were both in tough spots with the death of parents, but for some reason she turned towards him instead of you.


----------



## Physics

Is anyone else not seeing emojis? I just manually edited the first couple of text and input a couple of duplicate emojis. The original texts were copy and pasted from iPhone notes.


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## Diana7

Loosing a parent is no excuse to act badly. 
Also I cant see in any of their conversations where he is very depressed or in anyway suicidal. If he needs someone to talk to, presumably he has family or friends other than your wife? if not there are always therapists? He is a big boy and needs to sort his own life out without someone elses wife.
As I see it they were slipping into being far more than friends. Once you get to that point action needs to be taken before it becomes a full blown affair. 

Her keeping the door open is asking for trouble and is actually being far more cruel than telling him that there will be no more contact.


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## Tilted 1

Physics, no I don't just numbers and letters , on my phone maybe see 1/3 of them. And maybe this is why some of us are missing the full intent of them.


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## mickybill

Tilted 1 said:


> Physics, no I don't just numbers and letters , on my phone maybe see 1/3 of them. And maybe this is why some of us are missing the full intent of them.


I can't see them so I just copied about 5 of the emoji number sequences in the texts to google plus the word emoji. Hearts, double hearts, thumbs up, happy laughing face, happy face with hearts for eyes etc. They are flirting. IMO a PA for now...

Of the emojis where hers as flirty as his? Did either one use more emojis that you'd use with a BF or GF rather than "just a friend"? 
Seems like a good reason for her sanitize the texts before she knew she was busted.

Keep an eye out for other ways for them to communicate, like if/when she calls him to explain that you made her cease and desist contact.


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## OutofRetirement

Physics said:


> as we are all too familiar with, that slow, easy, natural slide into the emotional realm is a different animal when proper boundaries aren’t well defined in advance. It doesn’t absolve someone of responsibility at some point when it should be obvious, when it IS obvious, that emotional boundaries have been crossed and inappropriate communication and feelings continue. I still struggle with her state of mind, really.
> 
> Contrary to the pessimists here, she really is devastated, truly down to the fibers, that she hurt me and failed me. She’s said it, many times. To a certain extent, I think she wishes at some level to cling to some denial at what the texts and meetings meant, preferring to have them relegated to “just friends” and not rising to the level where a reasonable mind would infer something more inappropriate. In the beginning, before she knew that I knew about the texts, she insisted that she had done nothing wrong. Insisting that she couldn’t apologize to me because she really felt it, really, that she had done nothing wrong. I know the mind is a powerful thing and that accepting that she had done something wrong at that point would have been an admission that would be extremely painful. _Perhaps it’s a form of self deception, insulating herself from the pain that admitting “wrong” or “inappropriate” would bring._ *Has anyone here who has known this from being in her shoes ever experienced this?*


I think alte Dame is on point.

To answer your question, that is a rose-colored view of it. There really are no positives here, only negatives, in the faithful sense, the lack of infidelity sense. The only positives are that it isn't as bad as most. I had a slightly sprained knee, when I could have had shattered the bone of my leg. That kind of positive.

I have heard women claim it was friendship - many, many times I've heard that. Some of it hits close to home for me. And sometimes - a very few times - that may be true. She refused the texts. She doctored the texts. She could have come clean then, but she did not. You are NEVER going to know how self-deceived she was, or at one point it changed to self-aware, but certainly at that point - the refusing the texts, the doctoring of the texts - she was was lying to your face in order to protect herself and to maintain her over-the-line friendship. Emojis of hearts and kisses are just short of a clothed sexy pic. We know what that means, as do much of the words.

Of course she loves you. That is not in question. She does not want you in pain. She is sorry for that pain, which she caused. She is feeling horrible about her actions now, because she gets NOTHING. She gets you upset, and she doesn't get to keep her fun flirtation. But she enjoyed the flirtation, and she was furthering it along to maintain that status quo. I don't see that she was about to go physical, but when you walk on the tight-rope, you might fall off.

She lied to your face, and then she doctored the texts to purposely deceive you. What about that is self-deception?

One of the main principles in the Cheater's Manual is DENY, DENY, DENY - NEVER TELL THEM THE TRUTH UNLESS THEY HAVE THE EVIDENCE. The cheaters only tell the betrayed what they think the betrayed already know. That is the case in about 95% of these stories, if you've been reading. How is your wife different? She wasn't cheating? Did she think as long as it's not physical, it's not cheating, it's not adultery, it's not infidelity, it's not unfaithfulness? I can agree that is possible for her, but she still knew IT WAS WRONG IN A MARRIAGE. Maybe she considered it the same as if she overspent in the shoe store and she kept her extra shoes in the trunk of her car, and then hid them in the back of the closet, and then when you found them, she said, "I had those a long time, I didn't just buy them."

Here's another Cheater's Manual item - she figured out why she deserved the flirtation. It usually is along the lines of "I've done everything for everyone else, I deserve this one little thing JUST FOR ME."

Read alte Dame's post and take it to heart.

Yes, your wife is crying about how this will affect your marriage, and how she hurt this other guy, and she's still trying to balance the two.


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## Malaise

One could make a case of innocence and naivete on her part until the time came when she sanitized the texts.

At that point she engaged in deception to cover her butt. None of that was self-deception.


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## Robert22205

A husband (or wife) can never compete with the fantasy of what the other man (or OW) provides - and if your wife applies certain boundaries that protect your marriage you shouldn't have to. 

I strongly urge you both to read: "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass. Why? Because then you both can decide for yourselves how to interpret/label her relationship with the OM. 

Based on the posts, she doesn't deserve a life sentence or scarlet letter but she needs to stop with the excuses, accept what she did, and take steps to make sure it never happens again (and ensure you feel safe). 

Do not accept any blame for her decision to continue with (and lie) about her EA until exposed. The notion that she reached out to the OM because you weren't supportive enough is typical wayward thinking - and is a desperate attempt to shift blame to you.


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## alte Dame

Malaise said:


> One could make a case of innocence and naivete on her part until the time came when she sanitized the texts.
> 
> At that point she engaged in deception to cover her butt. None of that was self-deception.


I agree. I've just read the texts with the emojis and it looks even more like an EA. The poster who said this isn't an affair is, in my opinion, defining an affair in a different way. If one reads NJF and has experience with the slide from friends to lovers, I think this case is pretty clear. Not a PA perhaps, but definitely an EA.

She knew she was conducting a relationship in a way that would upset her husband. She hid it because of that. The deceit is key.


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## Tdbo

Robert22205 said:


> A husband (or wife) can never compete with the fantasy of what the other man (or OW) provides - and if your wife applies certain boundaries that protect your marriage you shouldn't have to.
> 
> I strongly urge you both to read: "Not Just Friends" by Dr Shirley Glass. Why? Because then you both can decide for yourselves how to interpret/label her relationship with the OM.
> 
> Based on the posts, she doesn't deserve a life sentence or scarlet letter but she needs to stop with the excuses, accept what she did, and take steps to make sure it never happens again (and ensure you feel safe).
> 
> Do not accept any blame for her decision to continue with (and lie) about her EA until exposed. The notion that she reached out to the OM because you weren't supportive enough is typical wayward thinking - and is a desperate attempt to shift blame to you.



I agree with this.
IMO, this was definitely a mild to moderate EA. She needs to admit she made the mess and accept 100% responsibility for it, she needs to do whatever it takes to clean it up and make you safe in the marriage, and then do whatever she needs to do to make sure that such events never happen again. She needs to come up with the steps, show total transparency in implementing those steps, and totally and permanently remove herself from any communication or event that would result in he communicating and/or hooking up with the OM. The BS about she is concerned about hurting him is garbage. It looks like she created this conundrum, and him getting hurt is solely her fault. HER LOYALTY SHOULD BE TO HER HUSBAND, and if it isn't, the OP has some hard decisions to make. It needs to be made clear to her that there is an urgency to it, and if she wants to remain married, she needs to follow through.
I would also state that since she lied, modified the texts, and did not come clean when confronted, that she has damaged your trust in her. Inform her that until she has repaired that trust deficit that she needs to be totally transparent to you and that she can expect enhanced scrutiny in every way every day, including her devices and whereabouts.
I don't think it has to be a death sentence either, but she needs to feel some pain and consequences for her actions.


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## syhoybenden

Sadly, if this was an EA then, since as a general rule of thumb it is held that women tend to place a much higher value on emotional impact than men would, this does not bode well.

Here at TAM there seems to be a consensus that “A woman gives sex to get love, whereas a man gives love to get sex.”

So, how much did she already invest of that commodity that men value in order to get her heaping helping of that loving feeling?


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## Physics

alte Dame said:


> Malaise said:
> 
> 
> 
> One could make a case of innocence and naivete on her part until the time came when she sanitized the texts.
> 
> At that point she engaged in deception to cover her butt. None of that was self-deception.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I've just read the texts with the emojis and it looks even more like an EA. The poster who said this isn't an affair is, in my opinion, defining an affair in a different way. If one reads NJF and has experience with the slide from friends to lovers, I think this case is pretty clear. Not a PA perhaps, but definitely an EA.
> 
> She knew she was conducting a relationship in a way that would upset her husband. She hid it because of that. The deceit is key.
Click to expand...

I went back and added to the individual texts written descriptions of the type of emoji used. This forum doesn’t have many emoji types available, so I did my best to describe them. I think it adds depth to the understanding of their state of mind, yes. 

As an aside, I made the case to her that even something as mild as calling another man’s wife “sweetheart” (which he did) if it was in front of a husband, would elicit a negative response, or, at minimum a serious look of disapproval.


----------



## skerzoid

InMyPrime said:


> I seem to be in the minority here...But I feel you are in danger of deepening yourself into the Anthony Hopkins character (Fracture, if you haven’t seen it, I recommend).
> 
> Your wife hasn’t slept with the guy nor made any promises of eternal love in her texts.
> 
> *How do you know that they have not done anything? 3hour dates? Where were their cars? *
> 
> Unless you fundamentally disagree with the idea that a woman is allowed to have a friendship with the opposite sex (many do, which is fine and it’s their prerogative but I don’t presume this is something you have actively discussed with her), it is entirely possible that it has only occurred to her how inappropriate some of the texts were, AFTER she looked at them again through YOUR eyes.
> 
> *You are making her seem very naive here, especially if she is on the Mensa scale of intelligence. They were boyfriend/girlfriend in high school. *
> 
> Let me offer an alternative view - and I know you are not going to like it, as this thread seems to be more about confirmation on a scenario, that has already been pre-decided.
> 
> You are hurt because your wife turned to someone else for comfort during this difficult time for her. As a husband, you have a right to be hurt but let’s call it what it is and not what it isn’t: it isn’t an affair and it isn’t (technically) infidelity. My advice is not to expend your energies to find ways to punish her, but next time to be there for her (I am not saying you weren’t, this time).
> 
> *Baloney! If it wasn't an affair, it was certainly headed there at breakneck speed! And how do you define an emotional affair? Many people are more upset with the "Sweetheart" stuff than the touching of genitals.*
> 
> It will in the end simply come down to how much punishment will she need to endure from you, in order for you to be able to get over it.
> 
> *Way to go! Great! Now you make him out to be the emotional abuser! He should be ashamed! Brute! Knuckle dragger!*
> 
> I am not saying you are over-reacting, but I worry, given the responses, that you are going to drive yourself and your marriage more into the ground by assigning intentions and thoughts to her, that she did not (consciously) have at the time. People make mistakes. You are digging into her brain hoping to find something that may not be there.
> 
> *Oh boy! She was so unconscious that she went back and edited content, and then lied to his face about it! They purposely excluded him from their dates!*
> 
> It’s most likely very simple: she didn’t think she did anything wrong at the time and acted in good faith, trying to be a good friend and reciprocating the other person’s kindness. There is nothing in the messages that indicate any sexual interest or plans to escape and ride into the sunset together or anything like that.
> You are going to drive yourself mad and she will just be miserable for the rest of her life. Be careful.
> 
> *Right now she deserves to be miserable. You sound like the lawyer for the defense.  "Non-gender members of the jury, my client is only guilty of being a caring human being who was saving a former boyfriend from hurting himself. She is only guilty of being a compassionate human being."*
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## [email protected]

Physics, like a lot of BSs, your drug of choice is Hopium, and you are an addict. She's playing you.


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## MEM2020

Physics,
ALL material has a melting point. Your perfectly virtuous wife - was overtly lying, deceiving and gas lighting you as soon as she was overwhelmed by the heat of newly kindled passion. 

If we turn that heat up a little more - then what? Stop pretending your wife isn’t constructed out of flesh and blood. Stop it. 

As to your communication style - well I know it all too well. We are looking at your marriage thru a straw. A straw that you are very carefully keeping pointed at the tiny area related to what your wife has done. 

We have zero context, other than that which we overlay atop your narrative based on our collective experience with these type situations. 

Based on the data as presented, I absolutely believe that:
- Your wife has NOT physically betrayed you
- She was falling in love with this other fellow pretty fast and given more time - would have lost her ability to resist his overtures 

As to your very objective comments about - how fit you are - and how not fit he is .....

Well - beware Sir, beware. Many an affair is between two people with greatly differing levels of physical attractiveness.

Half these affairs are novelty driven, alas the OTHER HALF are the result of serious flaws in the marriage. 






Physics said:


> To clarify, I was never explicitly excluded from any of the lunches or the party. There’s always that vague implication that goes unsaid where the third person who’s not a friend of one of the friends would make the time slightly strained, awkward. Third wheel? For the party, it was only practical that I stay home and stay with the kids as it ran past their bedtime.
> 
> To the assertion that more may have happened at that party, even just judging solely by the last text, where he said he really enjoyed the party but especially liked their alone time (lunches) best, it’s apparent that nothing happened. That and I know, really know, that my wife would never cross that line. I’d bet my life on it. That may sound foolish and naive to people who have been burned and thought the same thing, but I do have a belief to my core that she wouldn’t cross that line.
> 
> Physical lines are easy to see, they’re bright, red lines that nobody can claim ignorance to. One can not deceive ones self into believing a physical affair, that physical boundary, even kissing someone else isn’t crossing the line.
> 
> However, as we are all too familiar with, that slow, easy, natural slide into the emotional realm is a different animal when proper boundaries aren’t well defined in advance. It doesn’t absolve someone of responsibility at some point when it should be obvious, when it IS obvious, that emotional boundaries have been crossed and inappropriate communication and feelings continue. I still struggle with her state of mind, really.
> 
> Contrary to the pessimists here, she really is devastated, truly down to the fibers, that she hurt me and failed me. She’s said it, many times. To a certain extent, I think she wishes at some level to cling to some denial at what the texts and meetings meant, preferring to have them relegated to “just friends” and not rising to the level where a reasonable mind would infer something more inappropriate. In the beginning, before she knew that I knew about the texts, she insisted that she had done nothing wrong. Insisting that she couldn’t apologize to me because she really felt it, really, that she had done nothing wrong. I know the mind is a powerful thing and that accepting that she had done something wrong at that point would have been an admission that would be extremely painful. Perhaps it’s a form of self deception, insulating herself from the pain that admitting “wrong” or “inappropriate” would bring. Has anyone here who has known this from being in her shoes ever experienced this?


----------



## Physics

Diana7 said:


> Loosing a parent is no excuse to act badly.
> Also I cant see in any of their conversations where he is very depressed or in anyway suicidal. If he needs someone to talk to, presumably he has family or friends other than your wife? if not there are always therapists? He is a big boy and needs to sort his own life out without someone elses wife.
> As I see it they were slipping into being far more than friends. Once you get to that point action needs to be taken before it becomes a full blown affair.
> 
> Her keeping the door open is asking for trouble and is actually being far more cruel than telling him that there will be no more contact.


 Very early on, either just after that first group/family meeting, or just after their first lunch together, she told me he was very sad, not doing well. This was not solely because his mother was very sick, but the state of his life in general- a bad divorce several years back, loneliness, etc.
What still strikes me in all of this is how quickly her “feelings” for him were rekindled. Her tremendous empathy seemed strangely out of place given the decades of nothing other than the occasional grocery store hello. I suppose this really hammers home to point that many here with lifetimes of wisdom have always said, ex boyfriends/girlfriends really are dangerous territory, even if the relationship was thirty years ago and non-sexual.


----------



## MEM2020

Pixel perfect....




alte Dame said:


> She knows what she has done. She's dancing as fast as she can right now to set things right, but she has created a situation that makes her feel responsible, desperate, and guilty on all fronts.
> 
> First, she encouraged and enthusiastically nurtured a relationship with another man.
> 
> Second, she let it develop into a personal, intimate relationship that excluded you. The fact that she knows this is illustrated by the deleted texts. She knows. She knew.
> 
> Third, her relationship with him is of such a nature now that she feels responsible for him generally and his state of mind specifically.
> 
> Fourth, now that she knows you know the extent of what she has been doing, she understands that her primary responsibility is to you.
> 
> But, she is deeply conflicted because she feels responsible for him. She knows that the right thing for the marriage is cutting him out, but believes that a decent person wouldn't do that to him.
> 
> What she has to understand, in my opinion, is that she has put herself in the position of having to do the cruel thing to him in order to do the right thing by you.
> 
> She got herself here. Sometimes we can't feel good about the solutions to problems in our lives. She created this problem and there is no fix to it that doesn't hurt everyone involved. For now, allaying OP's hurt and rebuilding trust with him is paramount. It is a zero sum game that she will have to accept - to do right by her husband means that she does the hard thing with her OM.


----------



## Robert22205

I agree the emoji's add more support to the notion that it's an EA. It's subjective but IMO the hearts convey/encourage a strong romantic interest.
A 'long' hug and a kiss would be consistent with those imojis.

Did you ask her if you should speak with the restaurant staff to confirm whether they kissed on the lips (however briefly)? 

I think the fact that she responded so quickly to him and that it escalated so quickly is something you two should discuss.
Why? Because it probably was not really about the OM (although their history made it easy for her to justify to herself). 

I suspect she was vulnerable (perhaps mid life crisis ...or other ) and he came along at the right time.
She needs to identify the core 'why' and take measures to prevent it from happening again with someone else.


----------



## Robert22205

I'm sorry but I think you need to question whether the OM's mental state was/is just a convenient excuse to justify contact with him.
Especially since your wife is not trained as a therapist.

Is he being treated by a doctor? Is there any proof?


----------



## Physics

Robert22205 said:


> I agree the emoji's add more support to the notion that it's an EA. It's subjective but IMO the hearts convey/encourage a strong romantic interest.
> A 'long' hug and a kiss would be consistent with those imojis.
> 
> Did you ask her if you should speak with the restaurant staff to confirm whether they kissed on the lips (however briefly)?
> 
> I think the fact that she responded so quickly to him and that it escalated so quickly is something you two should discuss.
> Why? Because it probably was not really about the OM (although their history made it easy for her to justify to herself).
> 
> I suspect she was vulnerable (perhaps mid life crisis ...or other ) and he came along at the right time.
> She needs to identify the core 'why' and take measures to prevent it from happening again with someone else.


Interesting you should bring that up, the mid life crisis. That’s the exact term she used today to describe her life right now. We’ve been talking a great deal, often very emotionally, as you might expect. It’s those moments of openness from her that help me immensely and further the healing process. Although at times it feels the ship, my ship, our ship, is being battered and is completely rudderless, there are moments of time after the storm, after the battle, where calm waters prove the ship can weather the storm. This morning and last night were again immensely difficult, as if I was powerless to resist the pull into the storm. I’m sure those of you who’ve been through something like this know the feeling. Still, we must sail into the storm. The ship will hold.


----------



## Decorum

Physics said:


> What still strikes me in all of this is how quickly her “feelings” for him were rekindled.


Allow me...
At least you can take immeasurable comfort knowing she would never cross a line beyond feelings. :slap:

And investing her time in an inappropriate 
relationship with him.
And hiding it.
And ignoring her vows to forsake all others.
And pinning for him.
And hugging him.
And lying to you.

Absolutely she would never reciprocate a romantic hug or kiss with him.

I would bet your life on it, lol.

Be aware that she may experience a growing dissatisfaction in your marriage hereafter, with increasing bouts of depression and resentment. 

I'm out.


----------



## Physics

Decorum said:


> Physics said:
> 
> 
> 
> What still strikes me in all of this is how quickly her “feelings” for him were rekindled.
> 
> 
> 
> Allow me...
> At least you can take immeasurable comfort knowing she would never cross a line beyond feelings. <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/slap.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Slap" ></a>
> 
> And investing her time in an inappropriate
> relationship with him.
> And hiding it.
> And ignoring her vows to forsake all others.
> And pinning for him.
> And hugging him.
> And lying to you.
> 
> Absolutely she would never reciprocate a romantic hug or kiss with him.
> 
> I would bet your life on it, lol.
> 
> Be aware that she may experience a growing dissatisfaction in your marriage hereafter, with increasing bouts of depression and resentment.
> 
> I'm out.
Click to expand...

Point well taken, thanks. Understandably, all the elements you mentioned were what make this so devastating. Angels are bright still, yet the brightest fell. My vows to her were through sickness and in health and this is a form of sickness she brought upon herself, upon us- a failure of the mind under circumstances in life that challenged her. With great effort, I will, we will be able to untangle the mess. It’s not blind optimism, but dogged determination. I would hope that if I ever failed her in this way, which I cannot currently imagine possible, that she would fight like hell to untangle my mess. I think she would.


----------



## Physics

Among the many points where my wife and I have struggled along the way in this, she remains in the position that she can’t be certain her friend had other, less that virtuous intentions throughout this ordeal. I maintain the position, a default setting of a sort, that men will almost never invest significant time and energy with a woman unless they believe it’s possible to eventually have a physical relationship with them. Even if going into the rekindled friendship his intentions were pure, the likelihood of staying the course in that thinking are vanishingly slim. Even less than remotely possible given his overtures to her, both emotional and physical. “You are beautiful and I could have hugged you a hundred times today”

Obviously, from a legal threshold in civil litigation, we would be well within our rights as the jury to convict with the preponderance of evidence standard, that is, more likely than not. However, in your opinion, not taking into account the three hour lunches, would we the jury convict this man of inappropriate intentions with a standard of beyond a reasonable doubt? Could you, the defense attorney for him, craft a plausible, credible defense to acquit him if the evidence only included the texts? If yes, you believe you could craft a solid defense, would the three hour lunches prove insurmountable with the texts in tow?


----------



## MEM2020

Trying to evaluate the OM and his motives is a nonsensical rabbit trail. 

Your - wife was lying, gas lighting and carefully manipulating the content of her communications with this guy. She absolutely and totally KNEW that their MUTUAL dynamic was a BETRAYAL OF HER VOWS. The two of them together are toxic. 

And here you stand - with a once in a lifetime chance to use the shockwaves to MRI the marriage, and instead you seem to be pursuing an entirely different path. 





Physics said:


> Among the many points where my wife and I have struggled along the way in this, she remains in the position that she can’t be certain her friend had other, less that virtuous intentions throughout this ordeal. I maintain the position, a default setting of a sort, that men will almost never invest significant time and energy with a woman unless they believe it’s possible to eventually have a physical relationship with them. Even if going into the rekindled friendship his intentions were pure, the likelihood of staying the course in that thinking are vanishingly slim. Even less than remotely possible given his overtures to her, both emotional and physical. “You are beautiful and I could have hugged you a hundred times today”
> 
> Obviously, from a legal threshold in civil litigation, we would be well within our rights as the jury to convict with the preponderance of evidence standard, that is, more likely than not. However, in your opinion, not taking into account the three hour lunches, would we the jury convict this man of inappropriate intentions with a standard of beyond a reasonable doubt? Could you, the defense attorney for him, craft a plausible, credible defense to acquit him if the evidence only included the texts? If yes, you believe you could craft a solid defense, would the three hour lunches prove insurmountable with the texts in tow?


----------



## Decorum

Physics said:


> What still strikes me in all of this is how quickly her “feelings” for him were rekindled.


Allow me...
At least you can take immeasurable comfort knowing she would never cross a line beyond feelings. :slap:

And investing her time in an inappropriate 
relationship with him.
And hiding it.
And ignoring her vows to forsake all others.
And pinning for him.
And hugging him.
And lying to you.

Absolutely she would never reciprocate a romantic hug or kiss with him.

I would bet your life on it, lol.

I'm out.


----------



## MEM2020

The only two paths in front of you are:
- The one maximizing ego self protection 
and
- The one maximizing your comprehension of the marriage - AS IT IS EXPERIENCED BY your wife

Fixation on the OM is path one. Asking open ended and scary questions of your wife is path 2. 



Physics said:


> Among the many points where my wife and I have struggled along the way in this, she remains in the position that she can’t be certain her friend had other, less that virtuous intentions throughout this ordeal. I maintain the position, a default setting of a sort, that men will almost never invest significant time and energy with a woman unless they believe it’s possible to eventually have a physical relationship with them. Even if going into the rekindled friendship his intentions were pure, the likelihood of staying the course in that thinking are vanishingly slim. Even less than remotely possible given his overtures to her, both emotional and physical. “You are beautiful and I could have hugged you a hundred times today”
> 
> Obviously, from a legal threshold in civil litigation, we would be well within our rights as the jury to convict with the preponderance of evidence standard, that is, more likely than not. However, in your opinion, not taking into account the three hour lunches, would we the jury convict this man of inappropriate intentions with a standard of beyond a reasonable doubt? Could you, the defense attorney for him, craft a plausible, credible defense to acquit him if the evidence only included the texts? If yes, you believe you could craft a solid defense, would the three hour lunches prove insurmountable with the texts in tow?


----------



## Physics

MEM2020 said:


> Trying to evaluate the OM and his motives is a nonsensical rabbit trail.
> 
> Your - wife was lying, gas lighting and carefully manipulating the content of her communications with this guy. She absolutely and totally KNEW that their MUTUAL dynamic was a BETRAYAL OF HER VOWS. The two of them together are toxic.
> 
> 
> And here you stand - with a once in a lifetime chance to use the shockwaves to MRI the marriage, and instead you seem to be pursuing an entirely different path.


[/QUOTE]

I would agree that for me, yes, it may be a fruitless rabbit hole. However, I think there is some value for my wife to understand this person whom she held and possibly still holds in good regard. I’ve already concluded that he is an interloper and worthy of scorn. He should be ashamed.


----------



## Robert22205

The OM's intentions are not relevant. You guys need to read: Not Just Friends by Dr Glass.

Your wife's continued focus on the OM is a red flag. It's her behavior that risked your marriage, damaged your trust, and hurt you.
The OM owed you nothing.

Why did she comment on his intentions? Is she reluctant to go NC? Is she trying to retain the relationship with the OM by assuming all responsibility?


----------



## Malaise

*I would agree that for me, yes, it may be a fruitless rabbit hole. However, I think there is some value for my wife to understand this person whom she held and possibly still holds in good regard. I’ve already concluded that he is an interloper and worthy of scorn. He should be ashamed.*

The person your wife needs to understand is you, not OM.

She needs to understand that you regard him as a threat to your marriage.

She needs to understand you will not abide with any contact of any kind between them. And what may happen if contact persists.

Seriously, she knows what he's like.


----------



## Robert22205

You're the victim here and are not in any way responsible for her decision to have an EA. 
It's your wife that should be taking the initiative, carrying the load and fighting like hell to untangle this mess and restore trust.

After damaging her marriage, your trust, and hurting you, if she still holds him in high esteem then she is more closely attached (in an irrational way) to him than you realize.

They have supposedly been out of touch for years. Other than him making her feel young again and reminding her of her youth which in turn lead to inappropriate behavior that hurt you ... why would she hold him in high esteem? Why did his marriage fail? Have you talked with his X? Was he a outstanding parent? Is he active in church or other volunteer work?


----------



## Physics

Robert22205 said:


> You're the victim here and are not in any way responsible for her decision to have an EA.
> It's your wife that should be taking the initiative, carrying the load and fighting like hell to untangle this mess and restore trust.
> 
> After damaging her marriage, your trust, and hurting you, if she still holds him in high esteem then she is more closely attached (in an irrational way) to him than you realize.
> 
> They have supposedly been out of touch for years. Other than him making her feel young again and reminding her of her youth which in turn lead to inappropriate behavior that hurt you ... why would she hold him in high esteem? Why did his marriage fail? Have you talked with his X? Was he a outstanding parent? Is he active in church or other volunteer work?


I agree, and thanks for reminding me. I know I’m not responsible for this, that much I’m certain. I’ve always been emotionally available for my wife and like to believe I more than meet her needs in every respect. I still have a hard time believing this is even a thing, that it’s real. The harder I try to find another interpretation, the more real it becomes. I wish I could suddenly know that I built this monster in my own head!!!!


----------



## The Middleman

@Physics
As I read through your posts, I thought of a few questions that I think many here would like a clear answer to. I hope you will take the time to answer them.

You said “Interestingly, when she talked about writing to him, she sort of summarized the concept that there’s no place for him......at this time.” Can you go deeper into exactly what she proposed? Did you accept this, or did you ask your wife to say ‘no place for him ever’? If you objected, what was her reaction? When will the no contact letter be sent and will you be allowed to see it before it goes out and witness the sending?

You said you will confront your wife’s ‘friend’: “That will involve a face-to-face meeting. It will be uncomfortable, but I want to hear what he has to say.” Does your wife know this? If so, what was her reaction. If she doesn’t know it, what do you think her reaction will be? Will you be meeting with him sooner rather than later?

How do you plan on monitoring this situation going forward? There are countless stories here where these relationships go ‘underground’ after the first DDay and confrontation, and ultimately become physical. What is your strategy?


----------



## Decorum

Ok I'm not out.

Does anyone remember the thread, they were a salt and pepper couple. She had an EA in a class she was in. He was a federal agent. They went on to have twins. She posted on here for a while.

Her husband was the one who had them all meet. Her AP made an emotional play for her right in front of her husband.

It took her a while to get over him, if she ever fully did.

She could not say her AP was a bad dude, no matter what.

I could only guess why, but all she could say was, "he was bad for me, because I'm married, but he was not bad.

I think when a woman makes an emotional connection, it is against her nature to see that persons motives as morally dubious in some way. "Of course he wants to have sex with me, we have this amazing connection." "I (unfortunately?) just happen to be married."

Biology trumps cognition.

Maybe start small and try to stand 100 pieces of spaghetti on end.

Physics you are being way to cerebral about this.

E=mc^2 means when a man accelerates Oxytocin to the square of charm he achieves escape velocity. So to speak, and also badly mixing Middle School science class.

So we call it game sometimes, and it works because we are wired that way. If you cannot isolate and identify the inklings of your wiring, you cannot behave independently of them.

The argument of just how naive a girl/woman is regarding a mans intentions rages on every forum.

Your wife is a woman, one who followed the emotional crumbs to this point. What are you hoping to achieve? 

Beyond her understanding how she became vulnerable, and purposing to fortify against it.

I still think the worst is yet to come. The emotional letdown for her could be very hard. Her remorse will wane, then comes the vaccum, and then she will need serious therapy.


----------



## The Middleman

Decorum said:


> Does anyone remember the thread, they were a salt and pepper couple. She had an EA in a class she was in. He was a federal agent. They went on to have twins. She posted on here for a while.
> 
> Her husband was the one who had them all meet. Her AP made an emotional play for her right in front of her husband.
> 
> It took her a while to get over him, if she ever fully did.
> 
> She could not say her AP was a bad dude, no matter what.
> 
> I could only guess why, but all she could say was, "he was bad for me, because I'm married, but he was not bad.


Her name was Annie if I remember correctly. That whole situation was a mess, and even thought her husband was a Federal Agent, he didn’t act forcefully enough either.



Decorum said:


> Physics you are being way to cerebral about this.
> .....
> 
> I still think the worst is yet to come. The emotional letdown for her could be very hard. Her remorse will wane, then comes the vaccum, and then she will need serious therapy.


I could be miss reading @Physics, but I don’t think that this is going to end well at all, if the information we are getting is what is actually happening.


----------



## Marc878

Physics said:


> Very early on, either just after that first group/family meeting, or just after their first lunch together, she told me he was very sad, not doing well. This was not solely because his mother was very sick, but the state of his life in general- a bad divorce several years back, loneliness, etc.
> 
> His dilemmas are not her problem. But these types of connections can escalate extremley quickly. Once they start down that slippery slope it's hard to block the fall to the bottom. Just because you know doesn't mean this is the end of it. Better put your foot down
> 
> What still strikes me in all of this is how quickly her “feelings” for him were rekindled. Her tremendous empathy seemed strangely out of place given the decades of nothing other than the occasional grocery store hello. I suppose this really hammers home to point that many here with lifetimes of wisdom have always said, ex boyfriends/girlfriends really are dangerous territory, even if the relationship was thirty years ago and non-sexual.


You maybe finally getting it. Many think their wives impervious to sexual affairs and I do believe you caught this before it turned into a PA but it was just in the nick of time. This is not uncommon sad to say but a very typical EA. Nothing special here at all.

If you're smart you'll see that she closes that door completely. His hurt feelings, etc are not your wife's concern. He will be back if the door is left open. Bank on that. He's got nothing to lose.

I think I'd say very bluntly. Him or me. You have 2 minutes. Don't regret not standing up and calling it what it is. Your wife knows very well the magnitude of her betrayal (that is what this is).


----------



## Marc878

Physics said:


> Point well taken, thanks. Understandably, all the elements you mentioned were what make this so devastating. Angels are bright still, yet the brightest fell. *My vows to her were through sickness and in health and this is a form of sickness she brought upon herself, upon us-* a failure of the mind under circumstances in life that challenged her. With great effort, I will, we will be able to untangle the mess. It’s not blind optimism, but dogged determination. I would hope that if I ever failed her in this way, which I cannot currently imagine possible, that she would fight like hell to untangle my mess. I think she would.


She wasn't sick and this was no sickness. You're trying to make yourself feel better about your wife having an EA with another man.

Wake up


----------



## jlg07

Physics said:


> I would agree that for me, yes, it may be a fruitless rabbit hole. However, I think there is some value for my wife to understand this person whom she held and possibly still holds in good regard. I’ve already concluded that he is an interloper and worthy of scorn. He should be ashamed.


Physics, really WHO CARES that She understands this person.

SHE is the issue -- SHE is the one who did this to you and your marriage. YES he is a scumbag going after a married woman, but SHE should be thinking of HER mis-steps and wrong doing, not worrying about him.
From the sound of this, she really doesn't get it, and you better make sure she has repercussions from this -- do NOT rug sweep it.


----------



## alte Dame

I have two comments at this point that I'd like to make. They don't necessarily follow one to the other, but they are nonetheless related:

1. If you read here for a while, you note patterns and similarities in the behavior surrounding infidelity. One thing I've noticed for a long time is that people recount how the cheating occurred after the death of a parent. Another observation re waywards is the mid-life crisis.

It's my own observation that the mid-life crisis isn't absolutely related to middle age. Rather, it is related to experience that happens typically around the mid-life years, e.g., the death of a parent; children leaving the nest; the onset of serious illness. These experiences can be jolts to our psyches and make us, often for the first time, confront our mortality. Thus, the shock, soul-searching, confusion, and acting out of the so-called mid-life crisis.

You, OP, have a WW who not just lost a parent, but was bonding with another man over that exact experience.

2. Experience also tells us that men don't invest such immense time and effort in a relationship with a woman without a love/sexual interest. Many women seem oblivious to this, expecting men to think the way they do. Some women pretend not to be aware, but actually know what's happening.

If your WW didn't understand how this was developing at first, she definitely knew as it progressed. I don't think it's credible either for him to say he only had platonic intentions or for her to say that she didn't understand where this was headed.

So, you have two people bonding over a 'mid-life crisis' issue and not at any point calling a halt to it even though they must have known where it was going.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

jlg07 said:


> Physics, really WHO CARES that She understands this person.
> 
> SHE is the issue -- SHE is the one who did this to you and your marriage. YES he is a scumbag going after a married woman, but SHE should be thinking of HER mis-steps and wrong doing, not worrying about him.
> From the sound of this, she really doesn't get it, and you better make sure she has repercussions from this -- do NOT rug sweep it.


This^
If you rugsweep this and blame the OM then that just means you have millions of men to worry about, and you will every time she doesn't answer a text or a grocery trip takes a little longer than usual. If you recognize that the problem is with your wife then you can hopefully get her to see an IC and get her head sorted as to why she let this happen. She is NOT the sweet little naive waif you would like her to be. The sooner you fully recognize that the better off you are. 

p.s. Screw that "at this time" bull****. That is just telling him"Wait until things cool off and my husband stops being vigilant, then we can pick up where we left off." and that is exactly what will happen if you don't nip this in the bud.


----------



## alte Dame

Decorum said:


> Ok I'm not out.
> 
> Does anyone remember the thread, they were a salt and pepper couple. She had an EA in a class she was in. He was a federal agent. They went on to have twins. She posted on here for a while.
> 
> Her husband was the one who had them all meet. Her AP made an emotional play for her right in front of her husband.
> 
> It took her a while to get over him, if she ever fully did.
> 
> She could not say her AP was a bad dude, no matter what.
> 
> I could only guess why, but all she could say was, "he was bad for me, because I'm married, but he was not bad.
> 
> I think when a woman makes an emotional connection, it is against her nature to see that persons motives as morally dubious in some way. "Of course he wants to have sex with me, we have this amazing connection." "I (unfortunately?) just happen to be married."
> 
> Biology trumps cognition.
> 
> Maybe start small and try to stand 100 pieces of spaghetti on end.
> 
> Physics you are being way to cerebral about this.
> 
> E=mc^2 means when a man accelerates Oxytocin to the square of charm he achieves escape velocity. So to speak, and also badly mixing Middle School science class.
> 
> So we call it game sometimes, and it works because we are wired that way. If you cannot isolate and identify the inklings of your wiring, you cannot behave independently of them.
> 
> The argument of just how naive a girl/woman is regarding a mans intentions rages on every forum.
> 
> Your wife is a woman, one who followed the emotional crumbs to this point. What are you hoping to achieve?
> 
> Beyond her understanding how she became vulnerable, and purposing to fortify against it.
> 
> I still think the worst is yet to come. The emotional letdown for her could be very hard. Her remorse will wane, then comes the vaccum, and then she will need serious therapy.


I remember the WW. She was on for a long time and, like you, I remember how she expressed her admiration for and attraction to the OM, as well as her desperate feeling that her BH wasn't emotionally available. The BH was very forceful, I recall, and just smacked down the affair.

So, yes, you can end the A, but the emotional connection can take a long time to die, if it ever does.

And I agree that the worst is yet to come in OP's case. The shock of betrayal typically causes us to scramble to 'fix' it, which means corral the WS and bring things back to 'normal.' Once the dust settles, the BS realizes that the marriage is dramatically changed and there really is no going back to normal. It's a new marriage or none at all.


----------



## Diana7

Physics said:


> Point well taken, thanks. Understandably, all the elements you mentioned were what make this so devastating. Angels are bright still, yet the brightest fell. My vows to her were through sickness and in health and this is a form of sickness she brought upon herself, upon us- a failure of the mind under circumstances in life that challenged her. With great effort, I will, we will be able to untangle the mess. It’s not blind optimism, but dogged determination. I would hope that if I ever failed her in this way, which I cannot currently imagine possible, that she would fight like hell to untangle my mess. I think she would.


No its not a sickness, she chose to see him and carry on seeing him even when she knew that things were crossing the line.


----------



## Robert22205

Once again I'll suggest you both first read: "Not Just Friends" by Dr Glass. Why? because it will provide a solid neutral basis for you two to discuss and untangle this mess. 

However, I agree with Marc878. This isn't an intellectual discussion where you can persuade her to change her behavior with clever philosophical comments (and then she will automatically self correct). Your role must be more than just intellectual. I'm not advocating physical or verbal intimidation (however, it's ok to be angry), but you must be decisive, firm and show zero tolerance for any further contact with the OM (including any reluctance on her part to go NC or her sympathy for the OM's feelings). 

I agree with you that this isn't worth divorcing over (yet) but for you to save your marriage she needs to believe you will divorce her rather than share her with an OM. She needs to believe that there is no middle ground for you (anger helps sell this). Better to confront sooner than later: she must choose the OM or her husband. 

The OM's feelings are not relevant because the only person that should be relevant to your wife is her husband and the father of her children (your pain, your happiness, and you feeling safe from infidelity). If she hurt the OM's feelings (which IMO is nonsense), that's what he gets for playing with a married woman.
The OM must move on and find another source of emotional support other than someone else's wife.


----------



## manfromlamancha

OK a few points ...


First, lets assume that OP's wife was naive to some extent and/or is still questioning whether POSOM's intentions were less than virtuous - it would be very necessary for her to understand the truth about him to protect herself in future by recognising this kind of behaviour. So I agree with Physics needing to make her see and believe that he wanted in her pants as so many men in his shoes would do.


Second, I do not believe that she is as innocent as she pretends to be - there is a level of deceit here that Physics needs to take very seriously. It is probably the hardest thing that he is coping with right now. And this is because she has apparently not displayed this kind of behaviour before. Now that she has crossed over into the realm of deceitful, lying and cheating behaviour, anything is possible as we have seen such behaviour evolve here on TAM even with the most unlikely of spouses. And nearly all of them justify this in their minds. So this needs to be worked on. The speed with which this slippery slope can accelerate things.

Finally, let there be no doubt that the POSOM was well on target to get into her pants and Physics did the right thing to arrest this asap. Now what he needs to do is not let up until not only is the POSOM well out of their lives but also his wife needs to be working on really understanding what happened here and having a very frank and open discussion with Physics hopefully en route to some counselling.


----------



## sunsetmist

IMHO, Physics has not recognized his wife or the inherent possibilities. Why would he? She is acting totally out of character from his frames of reference with her. Both are super intelligent (so are many folks here). However, folks here are more savvy with regard to relationship peculiarities, norms, and outliers.

It is almost as if he is testing the wrong hypothesis. Why should he read wise suggestions of books--he doesn't see the importance? I understand that he wants his old comfortable marriage back and he is just starting to understand that alternatives are likely to be significant. 

IMO his intellect and approach to the problem have interfered with his awareness of his wife's current emotional conundrum. As has been stated his wife's bonding with OM seems to have no known valid antecedent event. This is a missing piece. He makes excuses for or overlooks her lying, deceit, and literal flawed character with regard to this crisis. She seems strangely nescient to the danger involved.

Surely we are uninformed as to the real empathy gap now existing. The empathy gap causes one to underestimate the influence of visceral drives on their decision-making ability. I, too, am wondering if professional therapy now for both would address and ameliorate future negative effects?


----------



## 269370

Physics said:


> Among the many points where my wife and I have struggled along the way in this, she remains in the position that she can’t be certain her friend had other, less that virtuous intentions throughout this ordeal. I maintain the position, a default setting of a sort, that men will almost never invest significant time and energy with a woman unless they believe it’s possible to eventually have a physical relationship with them. Even if going into the rekindled friendship his intentions were pure, the likelihood of staying the course in that thinking are vanishingly slim. Even less than remotely possible given his overtures to her, both emotional and physical. “You are beautiful and I could have hugged you a hundred times today”



It’s my last post on this as I am not sure it’s helpful...But IMO you need to distinguish between what HAS happened and what COULD have happened. It’s the difference between reality and extrapolation.
The above paragraph comes back to the idea whether you think it is reasonable for your wife to have a friendship with the opposite sex or not and what could have happened, if it had continued.
Do you have reasons to doubt that your wife thought it was anything more than friendship? (From HER side, his side is irrelevant).

The biggest issue is the sanitising of messages and that’s where she made the biggest mistake. However it seems to me that the most reasonable explanation is that she re-read the messages with your eyes and thought “oh ****, he might misunderstand the meaning and intent of it all, I better delete it”.

It is still not correct that she sanitised the messages - and it would be the single reason for me to blow up if my wife tried to ‘manage me’ and the situation by being less than 100% transparent if she made a mistake. 

But there is so much extrapolation going on as to what this or that could mean, on this thread, that may distort reality and may be unproductive for you both going forward.

IMO you need to agree on boundaries going forward with regards to friendships with the opposite sex, what is appropriate, what is inappropriate etc. She knows she hurt you and she feels bad about it. You want her to see what a piece of **** he is and IMO not focusing on the right thing. But this process is maybe necessary for you to get there, so I don’t know.

It is a fact of life that these things CAN escalate extremely quickly and that no one is immune to it, even your soul mate. It doesn’t mean people should live in fear but it helps to discuss some sort of rules of conduct and that such possibilities exist.

I don’t know if this will make sense but the partner is not YOU; they don’t walk around throughout life with the constant thought of “how would my husband perceive this? What would he think if I said THAT? What would be HIS reaction if I put my right foot forward instead of my left foot?” Even this in itself could be hurtful but they are an independent human being that have their own perception of things and if that perception deviates from yours significantly, and you find out about it, you have a conflict (obviously).

I am just leaving some room for the possibility of a misunderstanding. Anyway, I hope it resolves itself eventually.
Best

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## manfromlamancha

InMyPrime said:


> It’s my last post on this as I am not sure it’s helpful...But IMO you need to distinguish between what HAS happened and what COULD have happened. It’s the difference between reality and extrapolation.
> The above paragraph comes back to the idea whether you think it is reasonable for your wife to have a friendship with the opposite sex or not and what could have happened, if it had continued.
> Do you have reasons to doubt that your wife thought it was anything more than friendship? (From HER side, his side is irrelevant).
> 
> The biggest issue is the sanitising of messages and that’s where she made the biggest mistake. However it seems to me that the most reasonable explanation is that she re-read the messages with your eyes and thought “oh ****, he might misunderstand the meaning and intent of it all, I better delete it”.
> 
> It is still not correct that she sanitised the messages - and it would be the single reason for me to blow up if my wife tried to ‘manage me’ and the situation by being less than 100% transparent if she made a mistake.
> 
> But there is so much extrapolation going on as to what this or that could mean, on this thread, that may distort reality and may be unproductive for you both going forward.
> 
> IMO you need to agree on boundaries going forward with regards to friendships with the opposite sex, what is appropriate, what is inappropriate etc. She knows she hurt you and she feels bad about it. You want her to see what a piece of **** he is and IMO not focusing on the right thing. But this process is maybe necessary for you to get there, so I don’t know.
> 
> It is a fact of life that these things CAN escalate extremely quickly and that no one is immune to it, even your soul mate. It doesn’t mean people should live in fear but it helps to discuss some sort of rules of conduct and that such possibilities exist.
> 
> I don’t know if this will make sense but the partner is not YOU; they don’t walk around throughout life with the constant thought of “how would my husband perceive this? What would he think if I said THAT? What would be HIS reaction if I put my right foot forward instead of my left foot?” Even this in itself could be hurtful but they are an independent human being that have their own perception of things and if that perception deviates from yours significantly, and you find out about it, you have a conflict (obviously).
> 
> I am just leaving some room for the possibility of a misunderstanding. Anyway, I hope it resolves itself eventually.
> Best
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So just curious - in your opinion is there a possibility that the OM had completely virtuous intentions ?


----------



## 269370

manfromlamancha said:


> So just curious - in your opinion is there a possibility that the OM had completely virtuous intentions ?



We can’t know his thoughts. My personal opinion is that he probably did have feelings for her and may have been conflicted. The hundred hug bit was out of line and he immediately recognised it with a follow up. I didn’t see anything else that was out of line after that. (Some people will perceive the opposite sex friendship as out of line, which IMO is a separate issue worth a discussion).

But this is not the point (what his intentions were). The point is that it is entirely possible that the wife did not see it for what it could have resulted in and I am not sure OP recognises this.

But whatever she does or says, is likely to get rebuffed her with “ah but that’s a typical cheater script”. The board is very skeptical. And probably for good reasons. But to me, this is not ‘cheater script’ it’s just survival mechanism. And she is choosing marriage, as far as I can tell. Is this not good enough?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

.


----------



## Chaparral

Physics said:


> Very early on, either just after that first group/family meeting, or just after their first lunch together, she told me he was very sad, not doing well. This was not solely because his mother was very sick, but the state of his life in general- a bad divorce several years back, loneliness, etc.
> What still strikes me in all of this is how quickly her “feelings” for him were rekindled. Her tremendous empathy seemed strangely out of place given the decades of nothing other than the occasional grocery store hello. I suppose this really hammers home to point that many here with lifetimes of wisdom have always said, ex boyfriends/girlfriends really are dangerous territory, even if the relationship was thirty years ago and non-sexual.


This further points out that they were communicating in other ways besides texting. There are places in the texts that lack continuity.

How do you know they spent the entire time at the restaurant? How do you know they did not meet any other time. How long was the party and how do you know they spent the whole time there? 

I’m not saying they did anything else but the opportunity was there. 

His remark they could carpool if she didn’t bring kids is odd. Why would he leave you out? He offered to come by and pick her up at your house only if she came alone?


----------



## Physics

Chaparral said:


> This further points out that they were communicating in other ways besides texting. There are places in the texts that lack continuity.
> 
> How do you know they spent the entire time at the restaurant? How do you know they did not meet any other time. How long was the party and how do you know they spent the whole time there?
> 
> I’m not saying they did anything else but the opportunity was there.
> 
> His remark they could carpool if she didn’t bring kids is odd. Why would he leave you out? He offered to come by and pick her up at your house only if she came alone?


Yes, I agree, I did find that odd when I read it. We had by that point already started talking about the inappropriate nature of three hour+ lunches with him. She definitely made a conscious choice to avoid “going with him” to the party in his car. Her reasons for not carpooling were fabricated and I knew that at the time.


----------



## Decorum

The Middleman said:


> Her name was Annie if I remember correctly. That whole situation was a mess, and even thought her husband was a Federal Agent, he didn’t act forcefully enough either.
> 
> 
> I could be miss reading @Physics, but I don’t think that this is going to end well at all, if the information we are getting is what is actually happening.


 @AnnieAsh, lol, you are so right, good recall @The Middleman!

That was back when you could still delete your thread, and after looking I think her original thread is gone..

But I have this nagging feeling Middleman just like you said, that he is overlooking something obvious, that will end up biting him in the buttocks.

Honestly I think he is overconfident, and still in the first stage (of denial) of the 5 stages of grief. (Realizing of course that they are not always linear, and often repeat, or manifest concurrently). 

As Annie would say he is in the middle of the bell curve, he just doesn't realize it.


----------



## Diana7

manfromlamancha said:


> So just curious - in your opinion is there a possibility that the OM had completely virtuous intentions ?


I think they both started off as just wanting to reconnect as friends but as happens with so many of these one on one opposite sex situations, they had begun to slip into it being more, and both began to develop inappropriate feelings for each other. 
I don't go along with some here who often seem to blame the man in the situation while portraying the woman as being innocent. Its rarely like that. I think she was aware that things were getting past justa friendship, but she was enjoying it so didn't stop it. 

I hope that she has now agreed with you and cut off contact for good. I hope she sticks to that as well.


----------



## Chaparral

Have you checked the phone bill to see if the number of texts match the number you found? Could texts have been deleted after being read in case you found them? 

Have you checked to see how many calls they made and how long they were? There seems to me that some texts seem to imply there was communication that was not evident by the texts alone. Particularly, the last text.


----------



## Lostinthought61

given recent events you should tell your wife that you thought your marriage was solid but now you are rethinking this and that you need to take some time off and go away for a long weekend by yourself to think. if you do not do this she will be remorseful until this dies down, this mid -crisis feelings will not simply go away...you need reinforce her bad behavior.


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## alte Dame

I think it's very possible that she didn't have romantic feelings for him, but let things escalate nonetheless. If this is the case, then she was doing a balancing act in her head, trying to maintain the friendship while 'managing' her husband.

Even if this is the case, it doesn't really matter. The damage is done. OP will never truly know what her feelings are/were. He likely will never know if it went further than an EA. He is now in for a lifetime of trying hard to rebuild trust, comfort, and sanity. He doesn't really get that yet.

I think they are at the point where both should have IC. The hard work is just beginning for them.


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## Tilted 1

QUOTE IMP: "It is still not correct that she sanitised the messages - and it would be the single reason for me to blow up if my wife tried to ‘manage me’ and the situation by being less than 100% transparent if she made a mistake."

If you Physics doesn't stop rugsweeping he will be the one with the huge crocodile tears. And find the advice he was giving should have been performed. 
And he may not return because of shame. And then have his losses of his children, his "once upon a time in a land far far away ( Life ), " become a self doubter, and incapable decision maker, or a bad one ( procrastinating never making one ), 

It is after all your life, and as as said above by IMP, 

YOU WERE MANAGED!!! you were handled and didn't even see it coming and still being handled.

You have heard from us the wounded with first hand experience and from some fine ladies who tell you exactly why your wife is alluding something different. Normal logic is not going to get your out of this mess. Again if you don't believe in limerence, fear not it will hit you right between the eyes with no warning. This is the time for black and white, hot n cold, day or night, and these are the times of your life how you carve it up will be work no matter what. 

It appears to be in effect already, by starting to be the marital police, end the staging of infidelity for you peace of mind. This may infact be the beginning of the end your wife has made some decisions for you as well. Are you going to be her puppy on the leash. Her "" at this time"" is the first hole in the boat.


----------



## oldtruck

Physics said:


> She has agreed to never see him again and cease all contact. She un-friended him on Facebook, but they had little to no communication there, apparently. She deleted the text string from her phone because she said she hated seeing his name when she looked at other texts. The only remaining element in play is how to address him, to let him know where this stands. She suggested that she write to him and she was against me meeting with him to discuss this matter. Interestingly, when she talked about writing to him, she sort of summarized the concept that there’s no place for him......at this time. I took that to mean SHE wanted to leave the door open for a future time, but she clarified that it was only to prevent it from being too traumatic for him. As I mentioned, he is apparently not doing well emotionally in general and she thought something too dark, hard and permanent would be too much for him.
> 
> Regardless of the reasoning, it proves further that she cares for him. She’s trying to protect his feelings. I have to admit, it would make me feel terrible if he hurt himself if we could have prevented it by a different approach. I’m just speculating, I really have no idea what his state of mind is. One reading of his texts points to an emotionally manipulative, self-serving man who just wanted to have an emotional and sexual relationship with my wife. The other reading is a conflicted soul, who knew what he was doing trying to have a relationship with my wife, but also had his heart in the appropriate platonic place. In either case, he is responsible for crossing a line with her, many times. I will be planning on addressing that, in the future, in the most constructive way possible. That will involve a face-to-face meeting. It will be uncomfortable, but I want to hear what he has to say. It’s valuable, for me, for my wife, for our marriage.


leaving the door open is bad

worse WW placing the OM feelings ahead of the BH


----------



## manfromlamancha

InMyPrime said:


> We can’t know his thoughts. My personal opinion is that he probably did have feelings for her and may have been conflicted. The hundred hug bit was out of line and he immediately recognised it with a follow up. I didn’t see anything else that was out of line after that. (Some people will perceive the opposite sex friendship as out of line, which IMO is a separate issue worth a discussion).
> 
> But this is not the point (what his intentions were). The point is that it is entirely possible that the wife did not see it for what it could have resulted in and I am not sure OP recognises this.
> 
> But whatever she does or says, is likely to get rebuffed her with “ah but that’s a typical cheater script”. The board is very skeptical. And probably for good reasons. But to me, this is not ‘cheater script’ it’s just survival mechanism. And she is choosing marriage, as far as I can tell. Is this not good enough?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it is good enough that she is choosing marriage. 

However, I also think that early on, the OM saw that it could be more and pursued it rather vigorously (as did she to a lesser extent). What I am saying is that she needs to recognise when a man is clearly grooming her and pursuing her. She also needs to recognise when she quotes reasons for it happening such as "I felt that I never got attention from anyone" and "he made me feel attractive again" that these are in fact signs that the grooming is working. Finally she needs to recognise when she is making excuses for this type of man, that in fact he is not a friend of her marriage. This will help her in future which is one of the points I made to OP. FWIW I think she did see what it was becoming but chose to push the boundaries to see how far it went - for the simple reason that it made her feel good.


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## Robert22205

Once again I'll suggest you both first read: "Not Just Friends" by Dr Glass. Why? because it will provide a solid neutral basis for you two to discuss and untangle this mess.

Also your wife would benefit by reading: How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful by Linda MacDonald.

Your wife (... and you too) need to recognize that her regret/shame and the OM's feelings both cumulatively and individually pale in comparison to the pain they caused you (in the short term and particularly the long term). You are the victim here, a loyal husband and a great father - and did nothing to deserve this abusive treatment. 

If you show any tolerance for the EA or too much understanding for her mid life crisis, it will be viewed as weakness on your part and a free pass to continue with the OM or someone else. 

I'm not advocating physical or verbal intimidation (however, it's ok to be angry), but you must be decisive, firm and show zero tolerance for any further contact with the OM (including any reluctance on her part to go NC or her sympathy for the OM's feelings).

I agree with you that this isn't worth divorcing over (yet) but for you to save your marriage she needs to believe you will divorce her rather than share her with an OM. She needs to believe that there is no middle ground for you (anger helps sell this). Better to confront sooner than later: she must choose the OM or her husband.

The OM's feelings are not relevant because the only person that should be relevant to your wife is her husband and the father of her children (your pain, your happiness, and you feeling safe from infidelity). If she hurt the OM's feelings (which IMO is nonsense), that's what he gets for playing with a married woman.
The OM must move on and find another source of emotional support other than someone else's wife.


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## manfromlamancha

Diana7 said:


> I think they both started off as just wanting to reconnect as friends but as happens with so many of these one on one opposite sex situations, they had begun to slip into it being more, and both began to develop inappropriate feelings for each other.
> I don't go along with some here who often seem to blame the man in the situation while portraying the woman as being innocent. Its rarely like that. I think she was aware that things were getting past justa friendship, but she was enjoying it so didn't stop it.
> 
> I hope that she has now agreed with you and cut off contact for good. I hope she sticks to that as well.


I do agree with this which doesnt make the OM innocent in any shape or form. He had less to lose by pursuing this while OP's wife had a lot more to lose but went ahead anyway. I am definitely not saying that she is innocent.


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## Chaparral

Why did the OM get divorced? You need to know if he has cheated on his ex. 

How can you be certain of depths of your wife’s and his relationship in high school? 

Have you checked her Facebook friends threads to see if any pictures or comments were posted about the party?


----------



## Chaparral

By the way you need both of the books listed below. MMSLP is just for you. Do not let your wife see it. NOT JUST FRIENDS is for you both.


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## jlg07

Also, one last thing -- did you expose her? Did you tell your/her family and friends what she did?
You need to blow this up -- THAT is one of the consequences that she needs to face.
Without it, she will NEVER comprehend the depth what she did to you (and still might not anyway), and just think that once you have calmed down, all will be forgotten.


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## alte Dame

One of the factors that we're not discussing much is the effect of the HS relationship.

This OM gave lip service to your marriage, but basically felt like you were a cipher. His relationship with her was forged long before she met you. To him, you weren't even really in the landscape. I think he felt little guilt about pursuing your WW because of this. To him, he has more of an original claim.


----------



## Decorum

manfromlamancha said:


> OK a few points ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Second, I do not believe that she is as innocent as she pretends to be - there is a level of deceit here that Physics needs to take very seriously. It is probably the hardest thing that he is coping with right now. And this is because she has apparently not displayed this kind of behaviour before. Now that she has crossed over into the realm of deceitful, lying and cheating behaviour, anything is possible as we have seen such behaviour evolve here on TAM even with the most unlikely of spouses. And nearly all of them justify this in their minds. So this needs to be worked on. The speed with which this slippery slope can accelerate things.
> 
> Finally, let there be no doubt that the POSOM was well on target to get into her pants and Physics did the right thing to arrest this asap. Now what he needs to do is not let up until not only is the POSOM well out of their lives but also his wife needs to be working on really understanding what happened here and having a very frank and open discussion with Physics hopefully en route to some counselling.


Well said, nothing; from how she navigated the affair, to her lack of honesty, onto her outright deceit and betrayal screams, "I'M INNOCENT!!!", does it?

ETA; I have seen it more that once when a cheating wife counted on her husband's lack of interest in going to events to which he was invited, to further her affair.

I have also seen it more than once, when the husband decided to go and was "uninvited ", or it was changed and no longer included the spouce (queue office xmas party).

This was sometimes enough of a red flag for the husband to begin looking for her affair.


----------



## Physics

[/quote]

I think it is good enough that she is choosing marriage. 

However, I also think that early on, the OM saw that it could be more and pursued it rather vigorously (as did she to a lesser extent). What I am saying is that she needs to recognise when a man is clearly grooming her and pursuing her. She also needs to recognise when she quotes reasons for it happening such as "I felt that I never got attention from anyone" and "he made me feel attractive again" that these are in fact signs that the grooming is working. Finally she needs to recognise when she is making excuses for this type of man, that in fact he is not a friend of her marriage. This will help her in future which is one of the points I made to OP. FWIW I think she did see what it was becoming but chose to push the boundaries to see how far it went - for the simple reason that it made her feel good.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for this, stranger, I believe you are on target. I also think she was well aware of boundaries being crossed, even encouraging him to a great extent, especially after he even acknowledged that he had crossed a boundary and possibly made her uncomfortable. To which, she replied, she was not uncomfortable at all, felt the same way he did. I also think, given his level of intelligence, that this text especially was a trial balloon of sorts, and so was his follow up text when my wife didn’t respond immediately. Perhaps he was thinking he had gone to that level prematurely, and regretted it as a tactical mistake. That prompted the follow up text a couple hours later. Among the entire text series of 2/28/19, this was the most disturbing, honestly. Him making a serious advance and her accepting, encouraging him. Hearts and kisses emojis and emotional whisperings back and forth, let alone multiple three hour lunches, only buttress that this wasn’t simply a poor choice of words or anything marginally appropriate. In fact, she said she had been thinking about his text for hours and was worried that he would worry that she was uncomfortable with what he said because of the long delay in texting him back.


----------



## Spicy

I apologize if someone already asked this, but I am short on time to read, and I am only half way through this thread.

Are you sure she hadn’t *already* sanitized those texts? (As in the ones you found were already hacked way back, deleting the more juicy stuff?)

I am also curious how much time they were spending on the phone and FaceTime.


----------



## Physics

Chaparral said:


> Why did the OM get divorced? You need to know if he has cheated on his ex.
> 
> How can you be certain of depths of your wife’s and his relationship in high school?
> 
> Have you checked her Facebook friends threads to see if any pictures or comments were posted about the party?


No idea why he got divorced, just know that it was seriously ugly. That’s a giant black hole too.
As for Facebook, no, I didn’t check that, but I probably should have. 

As for the depth of their friendship in high school, I’m almost certain there was never anything sexual, but that’s not a prerequisite for emotional attachment. They did a LOT together, he was part of her small inner circle. They even travelled together to compete in a type of science competition as part of a small group from school. I believe it was just four of them. Any way you slice it, they were very close and explains a lot about the immediate comfort level that was achieved.


----------



## Physics

Spicy said:


> I apologize if someone already asked this, but I am short on time to read, and I am only half way through this thread.
> 
> Are you sure she hadn’t *already* sanitized those texts? (As in the ones you found were already hacked way back, deleting the more juicy stuff?)
> 
> I am also curious how much time they were spending on the phone and FaceTime.


100% certain? No, but approaching some very tiny decimals of certainty, yes. My reasoning is that there was enough left there that I found, not what she curated and showed me, that would have also been long ago deleted if that were the mindset. It also wouldn’t “fit” with the nature of the texts that I found. As for phone records, if I lacked support for my thinking that they were behaving inappropriately I would need them. As it is, I don’t feel the need at the moment- three hour lunches and inappropriate texts being enough.


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## Stormguy2018

Physics -

Congrats on nipping this in the bud - finally. Both you and your wife have a long row to hoe - as one poster suggested, you both need IC, then couples C. She has to find out why she let this get so intense. She was in a full-blown EA, ("I adore you") and it was probably only a matter of (a short) time before it became a PA.

Good luck. Keep us up to date.


----------



## dadstartingover

sokillme said:


> I agree, though you don't have to be an a-hole, respect is expected period.


Respect is earned. Passive agreeable people say, "I shouldn't HAVE to say that, they should just KNOW now to treat me like that." It doesn't work that way.


----------



## Chaparral

Quite few posters here have found pictures on Facebook that the wayward spouse didn’t know existed and showed things the spouse would be furious about. Particularly who was really there and how they were behaving, drinking relating to each other etc.

What did your wife delete in the texts? 

If think you are making a serious mistake to not check phone records. It would be informative to find out exactly when they started talking. Especially since they had obviously been friendly before your birthday invite.


----------



## Spicy

Physics said:


> 100% certain? No, but approaching some very tiny decimals of certainty, yes. My reasoning is that there was enough left there that I found, not what she curated and showed me, that would have also been long ago deleted if that were the mindset. It also wouldn’t “fit” with the nature of the texts that I found. As for phone records, if I lacked support for my thinking that they were behaving inappropriately I would need them. As it is, I don’t feel the need at the moment- three hour lunches and inappropriate texts being enough.


Whatever you are comfortable with.

I’m a bit creeped out by this...the text strings to me (without seeing emojis) were so spaced out and not massively damning. 

She is a very smart woman. IF something was/is going on...She would know you would snoop. She would know it would be suspicious to not have _any_ communication via text, so she leaves _some_ for you to find. 

That she is so guiltily about this is the hugest red flag that there is a lot more. Imagine the hours you are apart in a year, and if they were communicating a lot of that. I’m just not so sure. She seems “caught” now, and her reactions seem a bit much if those texts are all that happened over that huge span of time.


----------



## Tilted 1

Yes Fonlab is in order for both the phone and computer. Get the answers.


----------



## Physics

Chaparral said:


> Quite few posters here have found pictures on Facebook that the wayward spouse didn’t know existed and showed things the spouse would be furious about. Particularly who was really there and how they were behaving, drinking relating to each other etc.
> 
> What did your wife delete in the texts?
> 
> If think you are making a serious mistake to not check phone records. It would be informative to find out exactly when they started talking. Especially since they had obviously been friendly before your birthday invite.


She deleted a lot of the texts and ALL of the ones with definite boundary violations. What was left would have been concerning, worth addressing, like a big heart Emoji after he signs off with his initial, or a L, M (Love, M), etc, but nothing to be seriously alarmed about. Her texts to him were thoroughly sanitized, all inappropriate texts deleted in their entirely- many, many missing entire texts and exchanges. Same with texts from him. Most of them were missing entirely because the texts weren’t able to be individually edited for content, only deleted as a whole. What was left was a garbled, incongruent string that was so damned obviously incomplete that it was almost insulting that she thought I’d believe it. 

I went to lie down in bed, to collect my thoughts for for a few minutes, heart literally pounding in my chest. A few minutes later, I asked her if she had deleted or curated the texts, she said no, BUT she said that she might have deleted some to make space on her phone, like she used to do when she didn’t have 256 GB....like a habit, to make space.

I honestly felt terrible for her at that moment, she was panicked and truly terrified. I was, to put it mildly, devastated, crushed that she had lied to me. Salt in the wound. I told her I had seen all the texts, in fact had all the texts all along since their last lunch. She came clean, admitted she deleted some, said it was wrong. So here we are.


----------



## dadstartingover

Physics said:


> She deleted a lot of the texts and ALL of the ones with definite boundary violations. What was left would have been concerning, worth addressing, like a big heart Emoji after he signs off with his initial, or a L, M (Love, M), etc, but nothing to be seriously alarmed about. Her texts to him were thoroughly sanitized, all inappropriate texts deleted in their entirely- many, many missing entire texts and exchanges. Same with texts from him. Most of them were missing entirely because the texts weren’t able to be individually edited for content, only deleted as a whole. What was left was a garbled, incongruent string that was so damned obviously incomplete that it was almost insulting that she thought I’d believe it.
> 
> I went to lie down in bed, to collect my thoughts for for a few minutes, heart literally pounding in my chest. A few minutes later, I asked her if she had deleted or curated the texts, she said no, BUT she said that she might have deleted some to make space on her phone, like she used to do when she didn’t have 256 GB....like a habit, to make space.
> 
> I honestly felt terrible for her at that moment, she was panicked and truly terrified. I was, to put it mildly, devastated, crushed that she had lied to me. Salt in the wound. I told her I had seen all the texts, in fact had all the texts all along since their last lunch. She came clean, admitted she deleted some, said it was wrong. So here we are.


Keep digging. It ain't over, my friend.


----------



## jlg07

Get fonelab, get her phone, and then you can recover all the deleted stuff. You really DO need to do this.
She is trickle truthing you...


----------



## Decorum

Physics said:


> So here we are.


Physics, she will likely see this (i.e. deleting texts, etc.) as protecting herself, you, and your marriage while the significance of her disloyalty escapes her, because that wasn't foremost in her mind as it might have been if she were acting to harm you out of some sense of bitterness or resentment. 

What resentment she had she seems to have channeled into entitlement. 

Nonetheless her disloyalty is breathtaking. 

Physics, having had some time to re-read your replies, I do think you have a good grasp of the situation, and are definitely ahead of the curve for many many betrayed husbands this early on.

There are always twists, turns, and backslides. "we must endeavor to persevere!"


----------



## Physics

Spicy said:


> Whatever you are comfortable with.
> 
> I’m a bit creeped out by this...the text strings to me (without seeing emojis) were so spaced out and not massively damning.
> 
> She is a very smart woman. IF something was/is going on...She would know you would snoop. She would know it would be suspicious to not have _any_ communication via text, so she leaves _some_ for you to find.
> 
> That she is so guiltily about this is the hugest red flag that there is a lot more. Imagine the hours you are apart in a year, and if they were communicating a lot of that. I’m just not so sure. She seems “caught” now, and her reactions seem a bit much if those texts are all that happened over that huge span of time.


The fact that she felt so trusted by me would persuade me that she didn’t feel the need to scrub her texts as they came in. Perhaps in that fog of things, she never even thought about it, I can’t know. As far as the emojis missing in my original post, I assumed they would appear for everyone as they had appeared for me in my copy/paste from notes. Apparently not. This forum doesn’t recognize the vast majority of the emoji codes. So, I went back and verbally “added” the appropriate Emoji where it appeared in the text. It certainly heightens the emotional level in this context. Can anyone here imagine where they would use hearts, blowing kisses, heart eyes, L, Love, with someone who is not their spouse/significant other and have their spouse be totally fine with it? I’d expect a discussion from my wife if I used any of that with my neighbor down the street if I had become “close” to her. Why should it be different if it happens to be an old friend from 30 years ago that she is close with? In other words, it matters not the history of the person you’re exchanging such words or emoticons with, it matters that they are not your husband or wife! If I had walked dogs with a woman, first randomly, same route, on occasion, same time, then intentionally timing it to talk with her, get to know her. Fast forward several months, we become very close friends, have talked for hours and hours. “I completely adore you and I miss you” “I wish we had connected a long time ago, after high school” ...emojis blowing kisses, hearts, etc. NO, NO, NO.


----------



## Malaise

Physics said:


> I honestly felt terrible for her at that moment, she was panicked and truly terrified. I was, to put it mildly, devastated, crushed that she had lied to me. Salt in the wound. I told her I had seen all the texts, in fact had all the texts all along since their last lunch. She came clean, admitted she deleted some, said it was wrong. So here we are.


That's it? Wrong?

If that's the most she can say, and what you'll accept, then buckle up it's going to get bumpy. If she can't own it and admit to more than 'wrong'...


----------



## Robert22205

Can you summarize what issues you two currently agree on (and what is unresolved)? 

Have you ordered any of the books we suggested?

Has she agreed to NC? Has she agreed that there will be no future open door .... or last meeting or call for closure or cards sent once a year or friends on FB?

"She choose marriage". Did she literally say I choose marriage (or you) vs the OM?


----------



## mickybill

Physics said:


> “I completely adore you and I miss you” “I wish we had connected a long time ago, after high school” ...emojis blowing kisses, hearts, etc. NO, NO, NO.


No is right. Your wife is not a naive schoolgirl or an idiot. He is not some stealthy snake predator. They are both playing the same flirty game, advance and retreat. Circle around each other closer and closer. He makes a sexy comment and then backs off just in case she was offended, but no she liked it and want to hug him 100 times back. 

Considering how random the texts are, the chance that many were deleted after she read them is very high. I don't know if you can recover those. Is there a record from the phone co that would tell how many texts were sent? If you have 50 and there are 235 then there's a problem because she dumped then to "save space" FFS this isn;t 1994 texts don't take up space. Maybe there was sexting? 

With a name like Physics and a somewhat analytical mind I think you you are ignoring an important source of proof.
Please don't stick your head in the sand about phone calls. You will find out one of two things.
A. There were very few phone calls between the two of them.
B. There were a lot of phone calls between them.

There's a chance of very bad news or good news, now you just don't know.


----------



## MEM2020

The bit below showed a relentless focus on getting to the truth of what transpired between them. At least - the mechanics of it. Meaning - who said and or did what to whom and when. 

The most difficult aspect of this situation is that you seem to believe that you can vaccinate her from this type situation without even addressing the marriage. At all. Courtesy of TAM I’m frightfully well read on this particular situation. And I can tell you that it is a high risk strategy to point ALL the bright lights in the room on your wife - while interrogating her on the details of her misconduct. 

And each turn of the screw reduces the likelihood of actually having a conversation about how you might improve your marriage. 

And - in the spirit of precision communication.... 

Blame is about allocating moral responsibility. I am not talking about that. I’m talking about the guy who went for a walk in a high crime area at 4 AM and got robbed. Is he to blame. Absolutely not. Did his conduct contribute to the outcome. It absolutely did. 

So - sure - you can drive the marriage towards more of a ‘convent’ model - where the goal is to reduce temptations to nearly zero.

Or - you could apply the same level of determination and high quality analytical skills that you’ve already demonstrated, to try and understand how you two might work together to strengthen your marriage. 

Wife,
Normally someone only falls in love with a third party this fast, if they’re either bored or frustrated with their life partner. This event has made me realize that those are entirely normal emotions. They don’t make you an ungrateful or demanding person. And they don’t make me a bad partner. That said - our individual needs for conversation and quiet time, for touch and sex - are not always in synch. 

If for instance you are bored, that doesn’t necessarily mean that I’m boring. It does however mean that we might benefit from greater variability in what we do. If you are frustrated, for lack of - something. At least tell me what it is. 





Physics said:


> She deleted a lot of the texts and ALL of the ones with definite boundary violations. What was left would have been concerning, worth addressing, like a big heart Emoji after he signs off with his initial, or a L, M (Love, M), etc, but nothing to be seriously alarmed about. Her texts to him were thoroughly sanitized, all inappropriate texts deleted in their entirely- many, many missing entire texts and exchanges. Same with texts from him. Most of them were missing entirely because the texts weren’t able to be individually edited for content, only deleted as a whole. What was left was a garbled, incongruent string that was so damned obviously incomplete that it was almost insulting that she thought I’d believe it.
> 
> I went to lie down in bed, to collect my thoughts for for a few minutes, heart literally pounding in my chest. A few minutes later, I asked her if she had deleted or curated the texts, she said no, BUT she said that she might have deleted some to make space on her phone, like she used to do when she didn’t have 256 GB....like a habit, to make space.
> 
> I honestly felt terrible for her at that moment, she was panicked and truly terrified. I was, to put it mildly, devastated, crushed that she had lied to me. Salt in the wound. I told her I had seen all the texts, in fact had all the texts all along since their last lunch. She came clean, admitted she deleted some, said it was wrong. So here we are.


----------



## Robert22205

I understand why you're not looking or pressing for more information (e.g., phone call volume & dates, all deleted texts & emails, FB likes/photos/comments/imojis). You think you know enough plus you want the pain to stop. 

As you know, you're not the first to walk this path (including the shock that your wife was even capable of this).

Unfortunately, what we don't know often comes back (in exaggerated form) to haunt us months or years from now - and makes it very difficult to trust/heal (only it'll be too late to recover the information). 

I strongly suggest that you make all reasonable efforts to fully investigate the EA while the records/information still exists.


----------



## Physics

Malaise said:


> Physics said:
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly felt terrible for her at that moment, she was panicked and truly terrified. I was, to put it mildly, devastated, crushed that she had lied to me. Salt in the wound. I told her I had seen all the texts, in fact had all the texts all along since their last lunch. She came clean, admitted she deleted some, said it was wrong. So here we are.
> 
> 
> 
> That's it? Wrong?
> 
> If that's the most she can say, and what you'll accept, then buckle up it's going to get bumpy. If she can't own it and admit to more than 'wrong'...
Click to expand...

Taken as an island, yes, that would be totally inadequate given the gravity of this. However, I know she’s hurting terribly over ALL of this, including the deleting and dishonesty about the texts. We’re in the process of scheduling therapy, just waiting to hear back from the therapist. I’m debating what’s best in this case as far as going by myself initially, and having her go by herself initially, then go together, or just go together from the beginning. 

Paradoxically, or perhaps ironically to inject some levity, I actually felt bad about wanting to seek therapy, and I even told my wife this. I had never had any problem, any need, any reason to look outside of our marriage for support. Never in a million years would I have imagined that I would need or could benefit from a therapist. I still don’t understand how that works, but I’m hurting and I’ll try anything to help myself, to help us.


----------



## Robert22205

I think you will be positively surprised about therapy. I too initially dreaded it but learned that a neutral party can facilitate productive discussions of difficult topics (particularly when you both trust the therapist's opinion/advice). 

You are both hurting. Typically each spouse works on themselves first in IC (once, twice or whatever is necessary) then at some point they attend joint sessions to work on the marriage.

Therapists differ in their approach. Some focus more on learning to forgive & move on vs fixing the underlying issues.
Some therapists may be clearly biased in a way that makes you uncomfortable. You'll probably know after the first session.

It's important that you both are comfortable with the therapist. It's very subjective so don't be surprised if the first therapist is not a good fit for one of you.


----------



## MEM2020

Exceptional analysis. 




mickybill said:


> No is right. Your wife is not a naive schoolgirl or an idiot. He is not some stealthy snake predator. They are both playing the same flirty game, advance and retreat. Circle around each other closer and closer. He makes a sexy comment and then backs off just in case she was offended, but no she liked it and want to hug him 100 times back.
> 
> Considering how random the texts are, the chance that many were deleted after she read them is very high. I don't know if you can recover those. Is there a record from the phone co that would tell how many texts were sent? If you have 50 and there are 235 then there's a problem because she dumped then to "save space" FFS this isn;t 1994 texts don't take up space. Maybe there was sexting?
> 
> With a name like Physics and a somewhat analytical mind I think you you are ignoring an important source of proof.
> Please don't stick your head in the sand about phone calls. You will find out one of two things.
> A. There were very few phone calls between the two of them.
> B. There were a lot of phone calls between them.
> 
> There's a chance of very bad news or good news, now you just don't know.


----------



## Tilted 1

Malaise said:


> That's it? Wrong?
> 
> If that's the most she can say, and what you'll accept, then buckle up it's going to get bumpy. If she can't own it and admit to more than 'wrong'...


Exactly!!!!


----------



## re16

You put your wife on pedestal, and you are now recognizing that she perhaps is different than the person you put up there.

Maybe she is changing (mid life crisis), perhaps (more likely) she always had this ability to deceive you within her.

You need to do the basic level reconnaissance: check all deleted texts and review the phone call history. Not doing this only shows your own reservations about being scared of what you might find.

Unfortunately, she won't ever get fully back on that pedestal in your mind, and that is what you are struggling with. Be vary wary of the fact that she tried to leave the door open in her no-contact letter to him.

In these kinds of cases, it is not uncommon to see the wayward spouse, who now feels terrible about herself, go to the person who was making her feel good (that wasn't you).

Be very careful.


----------



## alte Dame

I've said this before, but I think it's possible that this is a one-sided EA. He was pursuing. She was being ingenuously accommodating and responsive. When it becomes obvious that he is interested in an intimate relationship, she 'manages' it because she doesn't want to lose the connection with him. She's not attracted to him that way, but still engages. She manages. She knows the texts are damning and can look to her husband like she is romantically interested in him, so she gets rid of them.

Anyway, it's possible. It's also possible that his feelings were reciprocated. The thing is you will never be 100% sure that you know the truth of it and this is what you have to figure out for yourself. Can you live with never really knowing how she was feeling?

You haven't responded to any of my posts here, OP, so I will reiterate the standard practice:

- Both of you read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass
- Individual counseling for her first. Marriage counseling is an option only after she has individual therapy.


----------



## Tilted 1

Physics said:


> Taken as an island, yes, that would be totally inadequate given the gravity of this. However, I know she’s hurting terribly over ALL of this, including the deleting and dishonesty about the texts. We’re in the process of scheduling therapy, just waiting to hear back from the therapist. I’m debating what’s best in this case as far as going by myself initially, and having her go by herself initially, then go together, or just go together from the beginning.
> 
> Paradoxically, or perhaps ironically to inject some levity, I actually felt bad about wanting to seek therapy, and I even told my wife this. I had never had any problem, any need, any reason to look outside of our marriage for support. Never in a million years would I have imagined that I would need or could benefit from a therapist. I still don’t understand how that works, but I’m hurting and I’ll try anything to help myself, to help us.


Go first and see if that therapist, sets you up as the root cause of her betrayal. If she does get a different one. Otherwise it sets the presidence of it was you that cause this.

I find this to be truthful, of your paradoxically why you are flippant, with all of this advice by those who have walked in your shoes before and sometimes more than once. The next thing is to quit setting yourself up thinking you have a full grasp of the things at present. Your denial steers you wrong and are misplaced and you are drifting in open waters without a oar and rudder. Hurting is not putting your pain in proper prespective at all, your shattered and at a loss of unbelievably surmountable betrayal. This is the reason why you attempt to rationalize this. You are not equipped ( but not a one of us are when this happens to us)

QUOTE: " I’ll try anything to help myself, to help us " 

Then apply some of the advice you have been given. Most of the advice here given has already be proven.


----------



## mickybill

We had MC due to realizing that we were in a bad place in the marriage.
Previously when we would have an argument it went like this:

Her- yada, yada, yada
Me-blah, blah, blah
Her- YADA, YADA, YADA!!!
Me-BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!!!
Both retreat to different rooms with doors slamming.

In MC the therapist wouldn't allow such an abrupt ending...we couldn't run and hide. The therapist said "and then what" "how did that make you feel" "why did you do that" 
We had to sit there for 50 minutes and actually finish a discussion/argument. 

You may benefit from MC because a good therapist won't accept "I was wrong" they will ask her "why is that wrong, did you feel it was wrong when you did it or just today" They dive deeper than you will on your own. Especially because you are very sympathetic to her at this point.


----------



## Tilted 1

The therapist is not to be there to prove who's wrong or who's right, they are there to see if you two can, and give you a chance. Because as l see this right now, you can't.


----------



## 269370

alte Dame said:


> I've said this before, but I think it's possible that this is a one-sided EA. He was pursuing. She was being ingenuously accommodating and responsive. When it becomes obvious that he is interested in an intimate relationship, she 'manages' it because she doesn't want to lose the connection with him. She's not attracted to him that way, but still engages. She manages. She knows the texts are damning and can look to her husband like she is romantically interested in him, so she gets rid of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, it's possible. It's also possible that his feelings were reciprocated. The thing is you will never be 100% sure that you know the truth of it and this is what you have to figure out for yourself. Can you live with never really knowing how she was feeling?



This is my view too. Moreover I believe it is not always possible to verbalise properly (or even know yourself) how one REALLY feels.

At the end of the day, all you can do is judge a person by their actions and not by what they could have been thinking or feeling...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marduk

Having been through an EA, I will tell you that you will likely go on an endless quest for evidence and for truth, and the further you go, the less sure you might be. I mean, for me, I think I got the bulk of it, but I also went a bit batty in the process, and I missed a bit of the point.

The point was that she lied to me.

We argued, went back and forth between my (somewhat) objective view of the facts (based on phone records, text transcripts recovered, all kinds of things) and her view of what she did (she said he called her, when in fact she called him, things like that)...

When none of that really mattered. What mattered is that she lied. What matters is that I couldn't trust her any more. And there wasn't really an answer to that, you know? When she would say stuff like "you should trust me," I would have to answer something like "I can't trust you because you lied to me," or more simply, "I don't think you deserve it."

It took a lot of therapy to get to where she was being honest with me. And yes I had to validate that, but I also had to understand it, and I had to decide: am I going to move past it and give her another shot or not?

I remember to this day, sitting in the therapists office, trying to decide that. Not as in "are you gonna sweep it under the rug" but as in "is it worthwhile to even try?" I decided that the answer was yes, but she had to be 100% honest and transparent from that point on. And she has, and I don't worry about it any more. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is to focus on her honesty. If she's still lying, you can't do anything. She has to decide to be honest. She has to decide to be faithful. And it's hard to tell... because people lie. 

What I did? I said "tell me everything. Tell me a total timeline. I have the data, and I will know if you're lying. If you're honest, I'll try. If you're not, I won't. It's that simple." 

So she took a few days and wrote down everything. Then we talked about everything. And it all matched, more or less. It's on that basis that I tried to start trusting her again.


----------



## *Deidre*

Physics said:


> I agree, and thanks for reminding me. I know I’m not responsible for this, that much I’m certain. I’ve always been emotionally available for my wife and like to believe I more than meet her needs in every respect. I still have a hard time believing this is even a thing, that it’s real. The harder I try to find another interpretation, the more real it becomes. I wish I could suddenly know that I built this monster in my own head!!!!


I'm sorry you're going through this. Something I've noticed with people on here who post about these situations, is they will state'' I've met my spouse's needs...I thought I did...'' The thing is, even if you weren't meeting her needs, it's a character flaw on her part as to what she did. Don't blame yourself for your wife's behavior. She must own it, and if she doesn't 100% own it, your marriage will never work.

Unless you were abusing her, etc...but it sounds like a bored wife who did the wrong thing, because she takes you for granted. That's more like the truth of what happened, here. Yea...she might have ''issues,'' but we all do...lol She's a grown woman who should be able to come to YOU and vent about what might be missing in the marriage, or within herself.

Going to this guy, was not the right approach. And I see her as instigating it, honestly. She says early on ''just you and me,'' when speaking about getting together for lunch.

She's not naive. She's not a child. I hope that if you choose to remain married to her, that she does the heavy lifting to prove to you...that she wants to be married to you. i hope things get better all around, praying for you.


----------



## Physics

re16 said:


> You put your wife on pedestal, and you are now recognizing that she perhaps is different than the person you put up there.
> 
> Maybe she is changing (mid life crisis), perhaps (more likely) she always had this ability to deceive you within her.
> 
> You need to do the basic level reconnaissance: check all deleted texts and review the phone call history. Not doing this only shows your own reservations about being scared of what you might find.
> 
> Unfortunately, she won't ever get fully back on that pedestal in your mind, and that is what you are struggling with. Be vary wary of the fact that she tried to leave the door open in her no-contact letter to him.
> 
> In these kinds of cases, it is not uncommon to see the wayward spouse, who now feels terrible about herself, go to the person who was making her feel good (that wasn't you).
> 
> Be very careful.


In fairness, as she was just telling me what she would tell him, theoretically, she may have just been protecting him from from the reality that it will be never again that she sees him. Also, in all honesty, I’m not certain if this discussion happened before or after I told her I had all the texts. In a way that doesn’t really matter. She was either protecting him by letting him believe that the door might be open in the future, or, her stream of consciousness was such that she wanted to believe it was still possible at some point, perhaps with different boundaries. In other words, she was negotiating in her mind. Both of these scenarios represent an emotional attachment to him that betrays the narrative that they are just friends. If the roles were reversed, I wouldn’t even imagine, even if it had in reality been completely and totally platonic, no texts, no long lunches, expressed a wish or desire to even suggest the possibility of it continuing in the future- even for only the benefit of the other woman. In other words, if my wife had expressed such unimaginable, terrible pain and angst at any relationship with a female, even a totally platonic, have a chat at the gym for five minutes kind of “relationship”, it would have been the end of it, period, no questions, no equivocation. I wouldn’t care even if I disagreed with her reasons.


----------



## *Deidre*

Physics, there's a really great series out right now on HBO called ''The Affair,'' and it might be good for you and your wife to watch it together. It will be very painful for you both, but it might bring healing. It is a really raw look at how an affair (the one in the show got physical) can change things forever in a marriage. I won't tell you anymore, as to not spoil it.  But, it's a really good series that is extremely illuminating as to what happens when an affair hits a marriage. (and how it doesn't only affect the people directly involved)


----------



## re16

Physics said:


> Both of these scenarios *represent an emotional attachment to him that betrays the narrative that they are just friends.* If the roles were reversed, I wouldn’t even imagine, even if it had in reality been completely and totally platonic, no texts, no long lunches, expressed a wish or desire to even suggest the possibility of it continuing in the future- even for only the benefit of the other woman. In other words, if my wife had expressed such unimaginable, terrible pain and angst at any relationship with a female, even a totally platonic, have a chat at the gym for five minutes kind of “relationship”, it would have been the end of it, period, no questions, no equivocation. I wouldn’t care even if I disagreed with her reasons.


I think you hit the nail on the head, they are not just friends. Your description of how you would react if roles were reversed makes complete sense, and the reason she didn't react that way is the emotional fog clouding her judgement. She was trying to think of any scenario where he would not be cut out of her life.

I think you are lucky to have caught this when you did, but you still should do some recon to make sure you have the full story.

I made the mistake of not doing full recon in a similar scenario to yours long ago, then more information surfaced years later, and it was back to square one. Dig deep now, not later.

The questions around this EA will eat you alive for years. You'll end up going over the details again and again.


----------



## Robert22205

Physics, I agree 100% with your post: "In other words, if my wife had expressed such unimaginable, terrible pain and angst at any relationship with a female, even a totally platonic, have a chat at the gym for five minutes kind of “relationship”, it would have been the end of it, period, no questions, no equivocation. I wouldn’t care even if I disagreed with her reasons."


----------



## 269370

Physics said:


> In fairness, as she was just telling me what she would tell him, theoretically, she may have just been protecting him from from the reality that it will be never again that she sees him. Also, in all honesty, I’m not certain if this discussion happened before or after I told her I had all the texts. In a way that doesn’t really matter. She was either protecting him by letting him believe that the door might be open in the future, or, her stream of consciousness was such that she wanted to believe it was still possible at some point, perhaps with different boundaries. In other words, she was negotiating in her mind. Both of these scenarios represent an emotional attachment to him that betrays the narrative that they are just friends.



Not really. You wouldn’t want to say those things to a friend either (that there’s no more contact to be had). Actually, if she did see him as a friend (and thinks he did too), any insinuation that it was something other than friendship, could in her mind trigger the exact same responses (feelings of betrayal). I am not sure this logic works.

Some people hold friendships in higher regard than a love affair...(not sure that makes it better). There simply is no ‘proof’ that it was anything other than friendship, unless new facts come to light.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Chaparral

It could have been completely platonic at first. It’s her actions when confronted that completely belie that possibility. Her actions after your confrontation indicate that what you saw in the texts may not be all there was to this. 

Unfortunately, that’s why everyone here is saying dig deeper. Experience is the best teacher. You may or may not be seeing only the tip of the iceberg. That’s a phrase that is all too common here. You must accept it as a possibility. Trust but verify is also common here . You cannot trust or forgive without the whole story.
If she was in a midlife crisis or bored or whatever doesn’t matter. Everyone is responsible for their own happiness and behavior. She was definitely happy to be going down the road she was on. She was probably in denial about where it was leading but moths are attracted to the flame.

If someone could post a link to the investigation thread you should read it. Be aware that it might just allay some of your fears.

Talking to his ex could be most helpful. What if she dumped him for numerous indiscretions. That’s something you and your wife need to know. He certainly seems to be really good at flirting and innuendo.


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, did you know any of the other people at the party? If they were really friendly or touchy feely would any of them consider letting you know? 

Also, did she steer you into keeping the kids instead of getting a sitter so you could attend?


----------



## Decorum

Marduk said:


> Having been through an EA, I will tell you that you will likely go on an endless quest for evidence and for truth, and the further you go, the less sure you might be. I mean, for me, I think I got the bulk of it, but I also went a bit batty in the process, and I missed a bit of the point.
> 
> The point was that she lied to me.
> 
> We argued, went back and forth between my (somewhat) objective view of the facts (based on phone records, text transcripts recovered, all kinds of things) and her view of what she did (she said he called her, when in fact she called him, things like that)...
> 
> When none of that really mattered. What mattered is that she lied. What matters is that I couldn't trust her any more. And there wasn't really an answer to that, you know? When she would say stuff like "you should trust me," I would have to answer something like "I can't trust you because you lied to me," or more simply, "I don't think you deserve it."
> 
> It took a lot of therapy to get to where she was being honest with me. And yes I had to validate that, but I also had to understand it, and I had to decide: am I going to move past it and give her another shot or not?
> 
> I remember to this day, sitting in the therapists office, trying to decide that. Not as in "are you gonna sweep it under the rug" but as in "is it worthwhile to even try?" I decided that the answer was yes, but she had to be 100% honest and transparent from that point on. And she has, and I don't worry about it any more.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is to focus on her honesty. If she's still lying, you can't do anything. She has to decide to be honest. She has to decide to be faithful. And it's hard to tell... because people lie.
> 
> What I did? I said "tell me everything. Tell me a total timeline. I have the data, and I will know if you're lying. If you're honest, I'll try. If you're not, I won't. It's that simple."
> 
> So she took a few days and wrote down everything. Then we talked about everything. And it all matched, more or less. It's on that basis that I tried to start trusting her again.


Marduk, you have been right in the thick of this, (at least twice), so I'm glad you put it just that way.

I don't see any way around it. It's not rugsweeping.
If there is to be any trust, there must be faith. 

Even in a minuscule amount, validated over time, yes, but that little, dare I call it a leap of faith, has to be there for trust to exist, not to mention grow.

It is up to the other person to show they deserve that trust, after they destroy that benefit of the doubt. Because now there is no doubt, and no trust.


----------



## Physics

Chaparral said:


> Btw, did you know any of the other people at the party? If the were not early friendly or touchy feely would any of them consider letting you know?
> 
> Also, did she steer you into keeping the kids instead of getting a sitter so you could attend?


No, I didn’t know any of the people at the party. There were two former high school friends, at least, if I recall. It was at the house of one of the friends’ parents, a mixed generation get together. 

As to her steering me not to go, I got a vague sense of it, ever so slight, but that could have been because we were both already acutely aware of the issue, minus her awareness of my awareness of the texts. I believe it was something to the effect of me not knowing anyone there. In reality, she was probably concerned about my state of mind regarding M. Who knows. I could have gone, probably should have, in fact, but I was confident she would do her best to avoid him, as was her stated goal. She had apparently promised the other friend, also a member of her inner circle in high school, that she would attend. He had also reached out to her with condolences after her mom passed away. M is friends with him and told him of her passing and likely her illness that preceded it. 

Then again, we also have two kids who would have needed a babysitter, and that’s a truly, extremely rare event for us. We do almost everything as a family, always have.


----------



## Tilted 1

Physics said:


> Then again, we also have two kids who would have needed a babysitter, and that’s a truly, extremely rare event for us. We do almost everything as a family, always have.


In hindsight Physics, that a sitter would have been a small cost from what you are now going through.


----------



## re16

Physics said:


> As to her steering me not to go, I got a vague sense of it, ever so slight, but that could have been because we were both already acutely aware of the issue, *minus her awareness of my awareness of the texts*.


Wait.. you had read the texts before the party? And you still let her go alone knowing he would be there? And then another lunch alone?

Can you clarify the sequence of:

1. Reading the icloud texts between them.
2. Initial confront about OM (without telling her you knew about texts).
3. Party
4. Lunch with "inappropriate" hugging
5. Forcing her to show texts and confronting her about lying / deleting texts.


----------



## Physics

re16 said:


> Physics said:
> 
> 
> 
> As to her steering me not to go, I got a vague sense of it, ever so slight, but that could have been because we were both already acutely aware of the issue, *minus her awareness of my awareness of the texts*.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait.. you had read the texts before the party? And you still let her go alone knowing he would be there? And then another lunch alone?
> 
> Can you clarify the sequence of:
> 
> 1. Reading the icloud texts between them.
> 2. Initial confront about OM (without telling her you knew about texts).
> 3. Party
> 4. Lunch with "inappropriate" hugging
> 5. Forcing her to show texts and confronting her about lying / deleting texts.
Click to expand...

1. 3 hour lunch
2. 3 1/2 hour lunch, with mildly “inappropriate” “uncomfortable” hugging at the end.
3. Discovery of texts, withheld knowledge of them from her. 
4. Confrontation about appropriateness of 3 hour lunches, appearance of impropriety, suggestion that it had to be akin to an emotional affair, feeling hurt that she would have allowed another man emotional access, etc. 
4. Party
5. Insisted that she show texts/confront about lying/deleting texts. I had mentioned wanting to see them a number of times, but never forced the issue. I explained that they would help me to understand everything I could about the nature of their interactions. She, of course, avoided bringing up the subject until I became more persistent. 


I desperately wanted her to come clean and admit the totality of what was going on, and I didn’t want to force her. I wanted her to confess to me, without being coerced. I knew the truth and I knew that she also knew the truth. Hearing her insist that she did “nothing wrong” was hard when I knew it was not the case from the texts alone. 

The party was one week after their last and final lunch. I trusted that at that point, perhaps generically speaking foolishly, she wouldn’t engage with him further. Had I told her I knew about the texts, it would have taken away the opportunity I desperately wanted her to have to come clean, and admit her mistakes. It would have helped to begin restore my trust in her. The party, in my mind, was a risk worth taking. I believe, again, perhaps contrary to some on this forum, that it had not progressed into a physical affair and wouldn’t now that the bubble of her emotional affair was deflating.


----------



## Sparta

I just love when I guy comes on here my wife would not do anything physical with him because I know my wife she doesn’t have it in her to do that. I bet you never thought she wouldn’t have an “EA” bottom line she had an “affair” adults have sex.! don’t be surprised if you dig deep enough It’s going to come out that it was physical. So don’t act naïve and ignorant to what you know deep down inside probably happened. Good luck


----------



## mickybill

Physics said:


> As to her steering me not to go, I got a vague sense of it, ever so slight, but that could have been because we were both already acutely aware of the issue, minus her awareness of my awareness of the texts. I believe it was something to the effect of me not knowing anyone there. In reality, she was probably concerned about my state of mind regarding M.


Not knowing anyone is a BS excuse I bet there were many other spouses at the party.
No, I think she was concerned about having you and M in the same room. It was her state of mind, not yours. 
My XW also introduced me to her AP at a work event. Looking back at it was pretty cruel, but at least it wasn't my birthday...

Start seeing the dots, then connect them. You are a smart man...


----------



## aine

@Physics,

You sound like a logical and intelligent man. Your wife and OM probably didn't start off expecting to become enmeshed but they did.
No man and I repeat NO man ever cultivates a relationship with a woman just for her to be his 'friend.' Some of the stuff he says, points to that 'sweetheart' 'looking forward to seeing her' 'she is beautiful' wanting to hug her etc, it is totally and utterly inappropriate. For you to think or say otherwise is simply splitting hairs. Please call a spade a spade.
Now I understand why you would want to give your wife the benefit of the doubt because it is difficult to face the reality that your wide of almost 20 years would betray you in this way and then lie about it. She lied to protect herself, cheaters ALWAYS do. Remember when your spouse is more concerned with protecting themselves than your pain, that says all you need to know.
If you are in any doubt as to the severity of this, ask your wife one simple question:
If she had found out what you found out and you were engaging with another ex-school mate from your past the same way, how would it make her feel? What would she have done? 
If she refuses to come clear entirely, tell her in the absence of willingness then you can only assume the worse, particularly since she lied when she had the opportunity to come clean. She is no longer your wife in the emotional sense, therefore, she will be treated accordingly.

Do the 180 on her
No more discussion on the marriage
No more physical contact, hugs, intimacy, perhaps sex to meet your physical needs alone
No more discussion on OM, the future, nothing
Ensure you go and live your life, join your clubs, gym, etc. Show her you have a life beyond her and will not tolerate any of this
Go see a lawyer and let her know the jury is out on what you are planning to do.
Go for MC, if she refuses, then you know where you stand.

Your marriage can be saved but she needs to take responsibility and follow through. No more pleading, questioning, etc.
I think it is now time to show her you mean business.


----------



## Physics

aine said:


> @Physics,
> 
> “You sound like a logical and intelligent man. Your wife and OM probably didn't start off expecting to become enmeshed but they did”
> 
> 
> 
> “No man and I repeat NO man ever cultivates a relationship with a woman just for her to be his 'friend.' “
> 
> I could not agree more and said so, to my wife, precisely as you’ve said it. She still claims that she isn’t sure of his motivations entirely. I think she knows that admitting to this would undermine her claim that she had no idea, up until that “mildly uncomfortable hug” that he had other interests besides being “just friends”
> 
> 
> 
> “Some of the stuff he says, points to that 'sweetheart' 'looking forward to seeing her' 'she is beautiful' wanting to hug her etc, it is totally and utterly inappropriate. For you to think or say otherwise is simply splitting hairs. Please call a spade a spade.”
> 
> .
> 
> 
> “Now I understand why you would want to give your wife the benefit of the doubt because it is difficult to face the reality that your wide of almost 20 years would betray you in this way and then lie about it. She lied to protect herself, cheaters ALWAYS do. Remember when your spouse is more concerned with protecting themselves than your pain, that says all you need to know.
> If you are in any doubt as to the severity of this, ask your wife one simple question:
> If she had found out what you found out and you were engaging with another ex-school mate from your past the same way, how would it make her feel? What would she have done? “
> 
> 
> 
> If she refuses to come clear entirely, tell her in the absence of willingness then you can only assume the worse, particularly since she lied when she had the opportunity to come clean.
> Go for MC, if she refuses, then you know where you stand


No, I couldn’t have even imagined it possible that she would do this.

I have and always have called it what it is, totally inappropriate. It’s glaringly so.

“No man and I repeat NO man ever cultivates a relationship with a woman just for her to be his 'friend.' “

I could not agree more and said so, to my wife, precisely as you’ve said it. She still claims that she isn’t sure of his motivations entirely. I think she knows that admitting to this would undermine her claim that she had no idea, up until that “mildly uncomfortable hug” that he had other interests besides being “just friends”

“If you are in any doubt as to the severity of this, ask your wife one simple question:
If she had found out what you found out and you were engaging with another ex-school mate from your past the same way, how would it make her feel? What would she have done? “


I’ve done just that. She’s “not sure how she would react“. That’s what she said. Really.


----------



## Chaparral

Physics said:


> No, I didn’t know any of the people at the party. There were two former high school friends, at least, if I recall. It was at the house of one of the friends’ parents, a mixed generation get together.
> 
> As to her steering me not to go, I got a vague sense of it, ever so slight, but that could have been because we were both already acutely aware of the issue, minus her awareness of my awareness of the texts. I believe it was something to the effect of me not knowing anyone there. In reality, she was probably concerned about my state of mind regarding M. Who knows. I could have gone, probably should have, in fact, but I was confident she would do her best to avoid him, as was her stated goal. She had apparently promised the other friend, also a member of her inner circle in high school, that she would attend. He had also reached out to her with condolences after her mom passed away. M is friends with him and told him of her passing and likely her illness that preceded it.
> 
> Then again, we also have two kids who would have needed a babysitter, and that’s a truly, extremely rare event for us. We do almost everything as a family, always have.


 So date nights are rare between you and your wife? That’s seen a lot here when wives cheat. I’m sure some of the ladies are going to school you on the amount of alone time couples MUST have. Haha


----------



## farsidejunky

Physics said:


> No, I couldn’t have even imagined it possible that she would do this.
> 
> I have and always have called it what it is, totally inappropriate. It’s glaringly so.
> 
> “No man and I repeat NO man ever cultivates a relationship with a woman just for her to be his 'friend.' “
> 
> I could not agree more and said so, to my wife, precisely as you’ve said it. She still claims that she isn’t sure of his motivations entirely. I think she knows that admitting to this would undermine her claim that she had no idea, up until that “mildly uncomfortable hug” that he had other interests besides being “just friends”
> 
> “If you are in any doubt as to the severity of this, ask your wife one simple question:
> If she had found out what you found out and you were engaging with another ex-school mate from your past the same way, how would it make her feel? What would she have done? “
> 
> 
> I’ve done just that. She’s “not sure how she would react“. That’s what she said. Really.


Bovine excrement.

This is a perfect example of cognitive dissonance. 

Her attachment to him prevents her from making sense of how she would feel if she were the betrayed spouse.

She is in much deeper than she is indicating. And @Physics? She knows it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Physics

“ So date nights are rare between you and your wife? That’s seen a lot here when wives cheat. I’m sure some of the ladies are going to school you on the amount of alone time couples MUST have. Haha”

Date nights as they’re commonly understood, where the kids are left at home with a sitter, are virtually non existent and I don’t see a big problem with that. Here’s why. We both work mostly from home, see each other all day long, have breakfast, lunch together, dinner together. We take care of the kids together. We have “dates” at home either when the kids are in school, or after they’re in bed. Although, I have to admit, I prefer the daytime dates, which are far less common, over the night time “dates” with the kids in the house. So, as far as even casual intimate contact, communication, we’re both being well fed. This is not your neglected wife with an overworked, tired, emotionally unavailable husband. Quite the opposite, unless I’m missing something big. It seems that some of these circumstances, these nascent or full blown emotional affairs just happen to people sometimes, even if there’s no vacuum anywhere. We are wired to make close, personal, emotional connections with members of the opposite sex. That’s not to excuse bad behavior, but it explains why bad behavior happens when proper boundaries aren’t in place and awareness isn’t had.


----------



## Tilted 1

Physics said:


> I’ve done just that. She’s “not sure how she would react“. That’s what she said. Really.


The reason is she doesn't want to own it. And if she was truthful she would. She playing the not me in a thousand years mentality.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Physics, is there some reason why you don't want to recover the deleted texts? Is it because you think if you see those texts you'll feel that you have to take action that you don't want to take?


----------



## Physics

Nucking Futs said:


> Physics, is there some reason why you don't want to recover the deleted texts? Is it because you think if you see those texts you'll feel that you have to take action that you don't want to take?


Do you mean do a full forensics analysis on our devices? I have the original texts. The ones she deleted, showing me only the sanitized text string, I had all along.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Physics said:


> Do you mean do a full forensics analysis on our devices? I have the original texts. The ones she deleted, showing me only the sanitized text string, I had all along.


I find this situation very difficult to follow.


----------



## Robert22205

I understand that your wife desperately wants to dismiss this as a harmless flirtation that she had under control - and that it would never have gone to PA.
Ideally she also wants to maintain contact with the OM (or at least preserve the prospect of future contact after you cool down).

However, as a spouse you have the absolute right to feel safe from infidelity. Therefore, it's important how their contact and texts appeared to you. Exposing the EA (and NC) does not automatically make you feel safe. 

I suggest you start a journal (starting on your birthday if that was their most recent contact) to better organize and assign your feelings to specific texts/conversations/activities - and perhaps to help get your IC up to speed. 

A journal will also discourage rewriting history, minimizing and rug sweeping what actually occurred and/or what was discussed between the two of you as their relationship escalated. Case in point: your wife's reluctance to characterize the OM's intentions as romantic or sexual. 

Summarize each physical contact, location and length of time, and your role or why you weren't included. 

For example: where did they meet? (your favorite restaurant), length of time? (just lunch - but it stretched to 3 hours with no call/explanation and she turned off her phone, where were you? (at home with the kids). 

Also, for each face to face meeting summarize each side of your related conversations (e.g., concerns you raised and her response) before and after: 

For example: what you and your wife discussed prior to each meeting (the reason for the meeting, why meet, your concerns) and afterward. 

The Journal should include a summary of each text exchange, who reached out first, the imojis - and in your opinion as her husband: the romantic or sexual suggestion. In addition, summarize your conversation about each text exchange (particularly her justification)

In the context of your marriage, an EA/PA requires certain personality characteristics to take over: selfishness, entitlement, deceitfulness, and a lack of empathy for their spouse. IMO a journal would reflect all of the above. In order for her to fix herself (and restore your trust) she will eventually have to acknowledge those characteristics and then learn to better manage her behavior.


----------



## Chaparral

Physics said:


> Do you mean do a full forensics analysis on our devices? I have the original texts. The ones she deleted, showing me only the sanitized text string, I had all along.


I think what we are thinking of is to make sure she hasn’t deleted any texts before you found this stream you posted. For example
if she deleted texts immediately upon receiving them. Also going back before all this apparently started.

Back before you went to his office particularly. Some kind of communication had to have been made before that. She didn’t just think of that out of the blue. 

Also, you need to check to see how many phone calls between the two of them there were. It’s seems impossible they only text each other. Phone calls a minute or two are one thing long phone calls mean something else. 
You also have to rule out apps that are used to communicate and FaceTime sessions.


----------



## Chaparral

How did you get her texts? Have you always had complete access to her phone, emails, etc.?


----------



## Decorum

Physics said:


> I’ve done just that. She’s “not sure how she would react“. That’s what she said. Really.


Lol, that's what they say when their honest answer would end their marriage.


----------



## Malaise

Physics said:


> I have and always have called it what it is, totally* inappropriate*. It’s glaringly so.
> 
> I think stronger language would be more fitting. Don't be afraid to use it
> 
> I could not agree more and said so, to my wife, precisely as you’ve said it. She still claims that she isn’t sure of his motivations entirely. I think she knows that admitting to this would undermine her claim that she had no idea, up until that “mildly uncomfortable hug” that he had other interests besides being “just friends”
> 
> This is something that should be dealt with in therapy. She's still lying unless she just left the convent and knows nothing of the world.


----------



## re16

I just re-read your first post of the "original texts" you pulled from icloud. There are a few spots that the responses don't seem to make sense in those, like there are definitely some missing.

If you were not logged into the icloud on a 2nd device, if she deleted texts, it would delete across the board. The only way you would have had the true original imessages is if there was an active device (like ipad) logged in the entire time while the texts were coming in.... in that case she would have delete separately on both to get rid of them (which also could have happened).

Another question:

Was it the 3.5 hour lunch (lunch #2) that you called the restaurant and verified she was there?

The below would be alarming if you didn't have verification she was there. Still alarming she was with him in his car "inappropriate hugging" being admitted to.

*3 1/2 hour lunch*

8/24/19 4:30 pm (This written minutes after my wife texted that she’s on her way home, likely written from his car)
(Friend). Thank you so much for lunch.* And thank (husband’s) name for sharing you. *

Usually a wayward admitting to kissing means sex, inappropriate hugging, likely means more than that.... Maybe more happened in the car.


----------



## re16

I redacted the below to the more concerning parts...

"6/24/19 6:02pm
(Wife). ...we’re packing for a desperately needed week’s vacation. When we return, *I’d love to have you over to just hang out and relax.* 
6/25/19 2:04pm
(Friend) ...Have a safe and well deserved vacation. I’m sure all of you could use it. *Look forward to seeing you when you get back.* MxO

8/8/19
(Wife) Hi (M)! Are you free at all for lunch next week?"


Seems really odd to have over a month gap when they were excited to hang out and relax together in early July. There are lots of references to phone calls / voicemails. You really need to see how much they were talking directly and use fonelab to pull any potentially deleted texts beyond what you've seen.

I have a strong feeling the texts you have are the tip of the iceberg. Reading them can be done in a few minutes... while they talked at the lunches for hours and hours and who knows how much on the phone. I think most of what transpired between them is a unknown currently.


----------



## Chaparral

When was she in his car and why? I don’t recall it actually did said that. Same with the hugs. 

From what I have seen the only time you verified she was actually at a restaurant was when you called the restaurant and told her to turn on her phone. Do people actually sit for three hours in a restaurant?


----------



## BluesPower

Help me guys... 

I am trying to read all of this... 

Is OP saying that he does not believe that his wife is having a physical affair with this guy? 

Is anyone agreeing with that? 

Maybe he is just saying that he has not caught them having sex so as far as he knows they are not sleeping together?


----------



## Chaparral

BluesPower said:


> Help me guys...
> 
> I am trying to read all of this...
> 
> Is OP saying that he does not believe that his wife is having a physical affair with this guy?
> 
> Is anyone agreeing with that?
> 
> Maybe he is just saying that he has not caught them having sex so as far as he knows they are not sleeping together?


No evidence of a PA.

It just feels wrong like there are things missing.

It just gets shadier and shadier.


----------



## re16

BluesPower said:


> Help me guys...
> 
> I am trying to read all of this...
> 
> Is OP saying that he does not believe that his wife is having a physical affair with this guy?
> 
> Is anyone agreeing with that?
> 
> Maybe he is just saying that he has not caught them having sex so as far as he knows they are not sleeping together?


Trying to wake him up to the significant probably that it is way more than he thinks it is.

The info he has more holes than swiss cheese. Basic recon- text recovery and phone log review haven't yet happened.


----------



## re16

Chaparral said:


> When was she in his car and why? I don’t recall it actually did said that. Same with the hugs.
> 
> From what I have seen the only time you verified she was actually at a restaurant was when you called the restaurant and told her to turn on her phone. Do people actually sit for three hours in a restaurant?


8/24 @ 4:30 pm per below.

*3 1/2 hour lunch*

8/24/19 4:30 pm (This written minutes after my wife texted that she’s on her way home, *likely written from his car*)


----------



## GoldenR

> However, I know she’s hurting terribly over ALL of this, including the deleting and dishonesty about the texts.


You're minimizing here. Or she is and you're going along with it bc it's the easiest thing to do.

The rest of what i put here is under the whack assumption that she didn't have sex with him. 

Your wife was most definitely going to have sex with this guy and she would have had you not intervened. All you two are addressing is dinners and texting. You need to treat this as if it was a physical affair bc that was where she knew she was headed and she was ok with that. 

She had already weighed the risk and she had decided that yes, the juice was going to be worth the squeeze. She wanted sex with him more than she wanted to not hurt you. 

Sure, once the reality of what she was doing slapped her in the face with you confronting her, she realized how ****ed up what she was doing actually was. Although she still was willing to leave that door open with her NC statement which says that he's still very much important to her and that she still feels emotionally attached to him. Regardless, had you never caught wind of anything, she would have ****ed him. 

Do you two discuss that at all?


----------



## Chaparral

re16 said:


> 8/24 @ 4:30 pm per below.
> 
> *3 1/2 hour lunch*
> 
> 8/24/19 4:30 pm (This written minutes after my wife texted that she’s on her way home, *likely written from his car*)


I remember this but thought it was just an offhand remark. If she was meeting him, there would be no reason for being in the car.


----------



## re16

I'm now convinced we are looking at a premature confront situation (OP didn't have all the info when he confronted, just partial groomed texts).

I understand why he did what he did and confronted at that time, and it was a good move to let her dig a hole by lying about the texts, but she has only admitted to what OP already knew (classic move). Has never actually admitted she did something wrong, only that she didn't mean to hurt OP (classic move). Has avoided no contact because she doesn't want to hurt AP. (also classic).

More recon should have been done, but OP was and is still thinking she was not capable of PA (classic mistake that is ongoing).

I give it a 100% chance they've been in contact often since OP called her out on deleting texts.

Now she knows OP is watching her, so affair is officially underground.

I'd be searching everything, especially her car, for a burner phone.

I would also be questioning the nature of their initial relationship, OP said not an ex-boyfriend - just a close high school friend, but maybe he was an AP way back then to one of her high school boyfriends. The question of whether they had had sex back then didn't seem like it was clearly no.

The rapid re-kindling of emotions seems to me like an ex partner resurfacing.

my 2 cents


----------



## Physics

Chaparral said:


> When was she in his car and why? I don’t recall it actually did said that. Same with the hugs.
> 
> From what I have seen the only time you verified she was actually at a restaurant was when you called the restaurant and told her to turn on her phone. Do people actually sit for three hours in a restaurant?


I’ve no reason to believe she was in his car. She texted me almost immediately after I asked the owner of the restaurant to have an employee remind her to turn her ringer on, check her phone. She was there, in the restaurant. She texted me about 20 minutes or so after the text she sent after being told to turn on her phone, telling me she was coming home. Home is five minutes from the restaurant. I speculated that he had texted from his car, right after he and my wife left the restaurant, because of the time stamp on the text not having been enough time to drive home and text. 
The last “slightly uncomfortable” hug almost certainly happened in the restaurant, but I will inquire.


----------



## Robert22205

Just a note regarding their telephone history.

From reviewing their texts they clearly make reference to talking on the phone.
Particularly after her mom died (which is not at all suspicious) - but also prior to her mom going into the hospital.

My point is (as others have mentioned) that their contact was not limited to just texting and 3 hour lunches.

In order for you to get a full understanding of the frequency & intensity of their relationship as well as to interpret the texts & emojis, I suggest you review the phone logs. You may also observe a level of texting that is not consistent with what you recorded.

The more evidence you compile the more difficult it is for her (or a therapist) to rewrite history, minimize or rug sweep.

Plus it adds to the assurance that 6 months from now you will be satisfied that you know all the details.


----------



## Dragan Jovanovic

OP,why are you still refusing to back up her phone for deleted texts? Use the phonelab pike the other posters tell you,or you hire a profesional to do the job. And sheck her phone bill. Only when you do this you will be one step closer from the truth. And If I were you,I would make her take a polygraph test. Then you will know for sure what realy happened. And pleace,dont make excuses for this,just do it. We are trying to help you,so let us help you!


----------



## mickybill

Have you been able to look at the recent calls list on her phone?
Or see the her phone bill? Or does that not matter since she has broken it off with him for now. He will be back, and it will be up to her to shut him down and tell you, or take it underground.

(Do people still have phone bills, I have been on autopay for years so I don't get a bill)
When I saw my XW phone records there were at least 2x the number of calls to him than to me or her sister. I saw 20 minute calls from her to him, then a 2 minute call from me to her then another 20 minute call to him.

The phone records will not tell you what they said but will tell you how much contact they had.
Have you asked Mrs Physic if the talked on the phone alot? Good question to ask after you have the records to see if she lies again.


----------



## Robert22205

This is a lengthy threat and I apologize in advance if you've answered my question elsewhere.

What date did you first confront her that you were uncomfortable about their relationship (not the texts)?

What date did you two sit down and look at the texts that she had sanitized?

Thanks!


----------



## Marduk

Physics said:


> No, I couldn’t have even imagined it possible that she would do this.
> 
> I have and always have called it what it is, totally inappropriate. It’s glaringly so.
> 
> “No man and I repeat NO man ever cultivates a relationship with a woman just for her to be his 'friend.' “
> 
> I could not agree more and said so, to my wife, precisely as you’ve said it. She still claims that she isn’t sure of his motivations entirely. I think she knows that admitting to this would undermine her claim that she had no idea, up until that “mildly uncomfortable hug” that he had other interests besides being “just friends”
> 
> “If you are in any doubt as to the severity of this, ask your wife one simple question:
> If she had found out what you found out and you were engaging with another ex-school mate from your past the same way, how would it make her feel? What would she have done? “
> 
> 
> I’ve done just that. She’s “not sure how she would react“. That’s what she said. Really.


Your wife is not that naive. 

She knew and understood well what the trajectory of the relationship was. 

She was likely flattered by it, therefore allowed it to progress while telling herself she wasn’t doing anything wrong. 

There’s many mistakes here, but none of them are innocent ones. 

Don’t focus on what he wanted.

Focus on why she wanted it.


----------



## niceguy47460

There maybe text that she deleted right after read or sent . That way if he did find the text the really bad ones would not be seen . You can get phone call list from your carrier . Do a phone recovery app . There is more than you know .


----------



## Physics

An interesting and disturbing development. While doing bit of research this morning, hoping to find the contact info of the guy’s ex-Wife, I found something of a bomb shell which hopefully helps to shatter any illusions my wife has left that this guy is just a sad story, an old friend reaching out for some help and friendship in tough times. No doubt his life has had some difficulty, his mother having also passed away this past spring, but the court case I found told of a scary, dangerous and unstable past. I was aware that he had a protracted legal dispute with a company that he co-founded, him having told the story to my wife about him being a victim. Along those same lines of playing the victim, he had also told her that during his nasty divorce, his wife was so terrible, so unhinged, that she made him take drug tests to have visitation and custody rights with the daughter. This would be consistent with a wife looking for leverage in a nasty divorce, making false accusations, I reasoned. Well, the court order, where he was seeking access to his former company records, told a completely different story. He admitted, in court, to having a serious drug problem. It was found that he had misappropriated tens of thousands in company funds to purchase prescription pain killers over the internet and tried to disguise it as legitimate purchase. He falsified records, threatened other employees, physically tried to prevent a forensic accountant from access, hacked into the company servers, threatened to kill his boss, physically threw things at his boss. He would go on hours long rants about how terrible he was treated. He allegedly threatened to kill his boss and his kids and family. He allegedly had his mother call the ex wife (possibly still married at the time of the call) to arrange them to be killed. Yes, this the mother that just died last spring. This testimony came about the death threats came from the ex wife. I suspect he had manipulated his mother into believing something so terrible that she would entertain to even discuss such an endeavor. I’ve come to believe there’s some serious pathology going on here, not just an ordinary piece of excrement willing to potentially destroy a marriage of his “good friend”.


----------



## Physics

And this was just the memorandum of decision seeking a temporary injunction against the company to give him access to records. This was not the trial where he sued the company for control or whatever, this was just a judges decision in a protracted litigation that referenced the trial record from the past. I’m sure the trial record has even more helpful information. What a mess.


----------



## Robert22205

Do not immediately rush to dump this information on your wife. First, determine how much (if anything) she knew.

Let her take a firm stand based on her insights and feelings toward the OM.

Repeat your reasons for suspecting the OM was a fraud.

It's important that she realize that her judgement was faulty and that she was irrational to overlook any hard evidence and evaluate him based on their HS connection (or how he made her feel, young etc).


----------



## Robert22205

She led him on and based on what you learned about him (he's unstable and views himself a victim in "a life of pain") and may not take rejection kindly. 

Her, you or your kids may be in danger from this POS. 

See your attorney. Perhaps he should be the vehicle to communicate NC. 
Be prepared to get a restraining order.

Based on his escalating emotional dependency and attachment to your wife he will likely try to make face to face contact with her and convince her that his intentions are "pure".


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## Marduk

Physics said:


> And this was just the memorandum of decision seeking a temporary injunction against the company to give him access to records. This was not the trial where he sued the company for control or whatever, this was just a judges decision in a protracted litigation that referenced the trial record from the past. I’m sure the trial record has even more helpful information. What a mess.


Deep down, I bet she knew.


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## Physics

Robert22205 said:


> She led him on and based on what you learned about him (he's unstable and views himself a victim in "a life of pain") and may not take rejection kindly.
> 
> Her, you or your kids may be in danger from this POS.
> 
> See your attorney. Perhaps he should be the vehicle to communicate NC.
> Be prepared to get a restraining order.
> 
> Based on his escalating emotional dependency and attachment to your wife he will likely try to make face to face contact with her and convince her that his intentions are "pure".


Thank you for the advice, all of these elements are being considered. Suffice to say, it would be a mistake of epic proportions for him to go down that road with me. He is well aware that my hobby, interests and primary expertise would make this a very unhealthy pursuit. If I had to guess, he will not go down that road. It’s possible that he’s no longer a drug addict, as these legal issues go back ten years, so he may no longer be so irrational. Additionally, if his primary motivation was to create an emotional and eventual physical relationship, he was certainly being very patient and calculating. The quick approach wouldn’t work with my wife, not a chance. As it seems quite often the case, I don’t believe she was “looking” for anything missing in her marriage with me. Perhaps the vacuum left from the death of her father left her a bit lost, looking to make connections to help make sense of things. Grief causes all sorts of irrational thinking. Rational people go to psychics in search of connecting with the dead, as one example. I believe the death of her father left her in a very fragile, vulnerable state and this guy appeared at the right time, also with a story of death and dying. People in support groups, having in other ways nothing in common, find a bond and comfort through this one, often painful common thread. 
While I hold him responsible, clearly, for his part in what he had to know was risking our marriage, his patience makes sense now. My wife would be worth the effort. She is an amazing person, even now, even though she was headed down a bad road and made mistakes which left us both devastated. 
Is anyone familiar with this type of calculation, this long game of patience? It can’t only ever be just about the sex, right? It’s far easier for him to have bought a prostitute or to have found some piece of trash girlfriend if he only needed to get laid. I suppose, however, at 50 years old now, maybe he’s also looking to relive some of his younger days and my wife gave him the opportunity and fertilized his mind, appearing receptive to his advances. Even a manipulative monster can love his mother and yearn for something.


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## farsidejunky

You are continuing to insist your wife did not have less than honest intentions.

This assumption will be the failed keystone in the eventual collapse of your tactical approach.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## phillybeffandswiss

This is one of the few things that amazes me on this board. Rich, successful, smart, attractive, happy, well adjusted, any combination or separately, people will use the most twisted pretzel logic to minimize their spouses actions and lay full or most of the blame on the affair partner.


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## 269370

Physics said:


> An interesting and disturbing development. While doing bit of research this morning, hoping to find the contact info of the guy’s ex-Wife, I found something of a bomb shell which hopefully helps to shatter any illusions my wife has left that this guy is just a sad story, an old friend reaching out for some help and friendship in tough times. No doubt his life has had some difficulty, his mother having also passed away this past spring, but the court case I found told of a scary, dangerous and unstable past. I was aware that he had a protracted legal dispute with a company that he co-founded, him having told the story to my wife about him being a victim. Along those same lines of playing the victim, he had also told her that during his nasty divorce, his wife was so terrible, so unhinged, that she made him take drug tests to have visitation and custody rights with the daughter. This would be consistent with a wife looking for leverage in a nasty divorce, making false accusations, I reasoned. Well, the court order, where he was seeking access to his former company records, told a completely different story. He admitted, in court, to having a serious drug problem. It was found that he had misappropriated tens of thousands in company funds to purchase prescription pain killers over the internet and tried to disguise it as legitimate purchase. He falsified records, threatened other employees, physically tried to prevent a forensic accountant from access, hacked into the company servers, threatened to kill his boss, physically threw things at his boss. He would go on hours long rants about how terrible he was treated. He allegedly threatened to kill his boss and his kids and family. He allegedly had his mother call the ex wife (possibly still married at the time of the call) to arrange them to be killed. Yes, this the mother that just died last spring. This testimony came about the death threats came from the ex wife. I suspect he had manipulated his mother into believing something so terrible that she would entertain to even discuss such an endeavor. I’ve come to believe there’s some serious pathology going on here, not just an ordinary piece of excrement willing to potentially destroy a marriage of his “good friend”.



Why are you looking for this stuff? This guy should be of no interest to you. 

Your wife has a certain image of him. You are desperately trying to destroy it - I get it. There is an unintended consequence from this that she might get fed up that you are trying to control the narrative so much as to not allow her to even have her own thoughts (how she perceives her life and the people around her). You need to let her arrive at it by herself (that she made mistakes). 
Trouble is, we sometimes treat them like clueless children. They are not. That’s one of the reasons they sometimes stray in the first place btw...



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## 269370

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This is one of the few things that amazes me on this board. Rich, successful, smart, attractive people will use the most twisted pretzel logic to minimize their spouses actions and lay full or most of the blame on the affair partner.



There is otherwise no other way to reconcile. The other guy must appear to take 100% of the blame and be the source of the evil, otherwise reconciliation will not work (in the mind of the betrayed spouse).
I feel it is better (healthier) to accept that we are human and can make mistakes from time to time and forgive that way around, if at all possible.
Also everything is relative. In a way, OP is fortunate to have become aware of it before anything happened.
I think these life lessons are good (for both people involved) for the long term. That way you truly realise and appreciate what you can stand to loose, without actually loosing anything.
Some betrayals would be impossible/very difficult to get over. This is not one of those.


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## Robert22205

I have experience with the long game (a deacon in our church). It's always tough to identify motive: sex, money, ego/power/control/conquest ...maybe even jealousy toward your marriage - or anger at the world. The long game often involves the OM raising himself in your wife's eyes while subtly reducing you (placing a wedge between you and your wife). Seducing your wife away from you would check a lot of those boxes - as is getting her to marry him.

With respect to therapy, I suggest you see the IC first to set up the facts and the reason (the EA) as well as the resulting damage that you are struggling with.
If your wife goes first and speaks through a biased filter of the events, you may spend a lot of time & money setting the record straight. 

I wish you both well.


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## phillybeffandswiss

InMyPrime said:


> There is otherwise no other way to reconcile. The other guy must appear to take 100% of the blame and be the source of the evil, otherwise reconciliation will not work (in the mind of the betrayed spouse).


Nope, we will disagree. The reconciliations I’ve witnessed be successful, here and in my life, have been sustained through truth and acceptance of blame.

No other way is just to absolute and wrong in my experience.


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## re16

What do the phone records show about their calls to each other?


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## Diana7

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This is one of the few things that amazes me on this board. Rich, successful, smart, attractive, happy, well adjusted, any combination or separately, people will use the most twisted pretzel logic to minimize their spouses actions and lay full or most of the blame on the affair partner.


Yes, we see it all the time here and its pretty annoying how blind some people are. The OM is a terrible person while the wife is apparently amazing. :frown2:No, they are both equally responsible and if he is a terrible person for what he did, then she is as well. In fact worse because she was married and he wasn't.


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## Diana7

InMyPrime said:


> There is otherwise no other way to reconcile. The other guy must appear to take 100% of the blame and be the source of the evil, otherwise reconciliation will not work (in the mind of the betrayed spouse).
> I feel it is better (healthier) to accept that we are human and can make mistakes from time to time and forgive that way around, if at all possible.
> Also everything is relative. In a way, OP is fortunate to have become aware of it before anything happened.
> I think these life lessons are good (for both people involved) for the long term. That way you truly realise and appreciate what you can stand to loose, without actually loosing anything.
> Some betrayals would be impossible/very difficult to get over. This is not one of those.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I cant see any other real hope of reconciliation until the BS sees the whole truth about their spouse, stops putting all or most of the blame on the OM, and the spouse who acted badly takes full and complete responsibility for what they did.


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## 269370

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Nope, we will disagree. The reconciliations I’ve witnessed be successful, here and in my life, have been sustained through truth and acceptance of blame.
> 
> No other way is just to absolute and wrong in my experience.



Maybe I didn’t phrase it well but I meant that that appears to be the only way forward to begin the road for reconciliation for the OP (to go shock & awe on the OM). It’s a natural reaction. But it takes two to tango (which follows that I am in agreement with you)...

Also: what is truth? If she truly believes there was nothing more than very close friendship and the OP doesn’t, whose truth is more ‘truthful’?

We are moving into the murky waters of thought crimes...


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## 269370

Yes, the texts are here in black and white as ‘proof’. But there are two types of posters in this thread: those that fundamentally disagree that close friendship between male and female are inappropriate and those that extrapolate that without intervention, it would undoubtedly have moved into a PA.

There’s no one here that actually accepts that intersex friendships can be socially acceptable (dangerous, but acceptable) and those that don’t feel it is fair to judge someone for something that had the potential to happen, yet hasn’t happened yet.



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## phillybeffandswiss

InMyPrime said:


> Maybe I didn’t phrase it well but I meant that that appears to be the only way forward to begin the road for reconciliation for the OP (to go shock & awe on the OM). It’s a natural reaction. But it takes two to tango (which follows that I am in agreement with you)...
> 
> Also: what is truth? If she truly believes there was nothing more than very close friendship and the OP doesn’t, whose truth is more ‘truthful’?
> 
> We are moving into the murky waters of thought crimes...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Gotcha.


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## BluesPower

Physics said:


> Thank you for the advice, all of these elements are being considered. Suffice to say, it would be a mistake of epic proportions for him to go down that road with me. He is well aware that my hobby, interests and primary expertise would make this a very unhealthy pursuit. If I had to guess, he will not go down that road. It’s possible that he’s no longer a drug addict, as these legal issues go back ten years, so he may no longer be so irrational. Additionally, if his primary motivation was to create an emotional and eventual physical relationship, he was certainly being very patient and calculating. The quick approach wouldn’t work with my wife, not a chance. As it seems quite often the case, I don’t believe she was “looking” for anything missing in her marriage with me. Perhaps the vacuum left from the death of her father left her a bit lost, looking to make connections to help make sense of things. Grief causes all sorts of irrational thinking. Rational people go to psychics in search of connecting with the dead, as one example. I believe the death of her father left her in a very fragile, vulnerable state and this guy appeared at the right time, also with a story of death and dying. People in support groups, having in other ways nothing in common, find a bond and comfort through this one, often painful common thread.
> While I hold him responsible, clearly, for his part in what he had to know was risking our marriage, his patience makes sense now. My wife would be worth the effort. She is an amazing person, even now, even though she was headed down a bad road and made mistakes which left us both devastated.
> Is anyone familiar with this type of calculation, this long game of patience? It can’t only ever be just about the sex, right? It’s far easier for him to have bought a prostitute or to have found some piece of trash girlfriend if he only needed to get laid. I suppose, however, at 50 years old now, maybe he’s also looking to relive some of his younger days and my wife gave him the opportunity and fertilized his mind, appearing receptive to his advances. Even a manipulative monster can love his mother and yearn for something.


Can you even read some of the things you write? Do you actually read them? 

Are you reading the things others a writing to you? 

Can you understand that you are PROJECTING feelings and actions on your wife that have no basis in fact? 

Can you understand that you are setting yourself up for such an epic downfall that it is almost unheard of? 

Wake up, please wake up to what you are about to find out at some point in the future... Your thinking is completely and totally wrong headed...


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## niceguy47460

I noticed you asked why the long game . I would say he has always had a big crush on your wife . He was playing the long game because he wanted more than just sex . I would say he wanted your wife to himself . And you out of the picture .


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## Diana7

InMyPrime said:


> Yes, the texts are here in black and white as ‘proof’. But there are two types of posters in this thread: those that fundamentally disagree that close friendship between male and female are inappropriate and those that extrapolate that without intervention, it would undoubtedly have moved into a PA.
> 
> There’s no one here that actually accepts that intersex friendships can be socially acceptable (dangerous, but acceptable) and those that don’t feel it is fair to judge someone for something that had the potential to happen, yet hasn’t happened yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


From what we have been told it had definitely begun to go over appropriate boundaries, and of course she hid much of their communication anyway.


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## Robert22205

Physics ....another tactic used in the long game is intentionally mirroring your wife's emotions (exhaustion, stress, grief, fear, or joy). The OM's texts already reflects some of that. It was easy since they shared grief as well as HS. The net result is that your wife views him as 'getting her' or being very empathetic - which pulls her back for more and more of his attention. It also gives him an opportunity to replace you in her head.

I guess we'll never know what they talked about for those two long lunches (and phone calls) but I bet it included lots of opportunity for him to mirror your wife's emotions.


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## Physics

Diana7 said:


> InMyPrime said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is otherwise no other way to reconcile. The other guy must appear to take 100% of the blame and be the source of the evil, otherwise reconciliation will not work (in the mind of the betrayed spouse).
> I feel it is better (healthier) to accept that we are human and can make mistakes from time to time and forgive that way around, if at all possible.
> Also everything is relative. In a way, OP is fortunate to have become aware of it before anything happened.
> I think these life lessons are good (for both people involved) for the long term. That way you truly realise and appreciate what you can stand to loose, without actually loosing anything.
> Some betrayals would be impossible/very difficult to get over. This is not one of those.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> I cant see any other real hope of reconciliation until the BS sees the whole truth about their spouse, stops putting all or most of the blame on the OM, and the spouse who acted badly takes full and complete responsibility for what they did.
Click to expand...

I’m not putting all or most of the blame on the OM. Far from it, in fact. I only included the recent info about him and my analysis to add another useful layer to understand the totality of the story. As for my wife being an amazing person, yes, she is. One big mistake here, either the emotional affair or lying/curating the texts doesn't destroy 20 years of an amazing relationship. It damages it, it damages the trust, certainly. Understandably, there are levels of deceit, no doubt experienced here by many, that far and away exceed what I’ve recently experienced. I don’t know how it would be possible to hurt more than I’ve hurt with this, but I’d imagine it could be worse having read some of the horrible stories here. 
Just as in criminal justice, we don’t punish theft the same way we punish murder, or even robbery. If reconciliation is possible, it has to have some relationship to the scale of the transgression and, of course, the inclinations and willingness of the marriage partners. I’m sure for some here, by what I’m gathering, they would have gone to DEFCON 5 already. I think most would take a more measured approach and look to heal what’s hurt, mend what’s broken. This thing, whatever label you give it, has been immeasurably painful, for both of us. 

Even taking her current position, that she was genuinely blind to what was going on, didn’t see his intentions, didn’t have any intentions or assign meaning to what she wrote to him, and only now, in hindsight understands that three hour lunches are inappropriate, she takes full responsibility for lying to me about the texts. That alone provides her with what she describes as the biggest mistake of her life. 

Still, that’s not enough, and I’m well entrenched in the camp that believes she was aware of his intentions, and enjoyed his company and texting that she knew I wouldn’t be happy with if I saw- feeling that as long as it didn’t go beyond that, it didn’t conflict with how she believes herself to be. Perhaps a blind spot, a self-deception, I’m not versed in psychology enough to speculate. Cognitive dissonance best describes what I still think she’s experiencing right now. It’s a longer version of the same lie that she told when I first told her I had all the original, unedited, non-curated texts. It made no sense to continue to lie at that point, having been caught red-handed, so to speak, but there she was, for a panicked minute, trying to convince me that she had deleted them randomly, just to save space on her phone.

She still clings to the position that she didn’t know what he wanted, believing he was just behaving as a friend and that her texts to him didn’t “mean” what they seem to mean to everyone else. Even the word “adore” which she used in one text, (I completely adore and miss you) she says means to her how you would use it to a friend- something I guess I would say differently, if I tried to think like her- perhaps, said you’re a really great person, etc. I still can’t imagine using completely adore and miss you to another person, let alone a woman, unless I had very, very strong emotional feelings for them. Beating this horse to death, of course, but has anyone experiences anything like this? With the totality of the texts, and the long lunches, to deny their meaning seems the verbal equivalent of a spouse denying they were physically cheating when you find the condom, the motel receipts, the emails about how great you were last night. It’s really troubling and I’m now convinced there are serious cognitive dissonance issues. So, Friday is our first appointment with the therapist.


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## skerzoid

Physics,

Have you exposed the facts that you found to your wife yet? If so, what was her reaction?

Have you offered to just let her go to be with him? Explained to her that you love her and wish her happiness? Here's a link worth reading to that effect... https://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go.html

Have you visited with a lawyer to find out your rights yet?

Have you implemented the "180" technique yet? Here is a link: https://healinginfidelity.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-180-for-hurt-spouses.html

It is time for you to treat her as a Wayward Wife (WW) and let her see that she is on thin ice as a soon to be ex wife (stbxw).

Time to stop with the cerebral discussions and get caveman. 

She should be terrified of losing you and, in fact, she should be seeing the wheels of justice starting to turn. 

Time for a little Robespierre instead of Montesquieu. Heads should be rolling my intellectual friend.


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## 269370

Physics said:


> I’m not putting all or most of the blame on the OM. Far from it, in fact. I only included the recent info about him and my analysis to add another useful layer to understand the totality of the story. As for my wife being an amazing person, yes, she is. One big mistake here, either the emotional affair or lying/curating the texts doesn't destroy 20 years of an amazing relationship. It damages it, it damages the trust, certainly. Understandably, there are levels of deceit, no doubt experienced here by many, that far and away exceed what I’ve recently experienced. I don’t know how it would be possible to hurt more than I’ve hurt with this, but I’d imagine it could be worse having read some of the horrible stories here.
> Just as in criminal justice, we don’t punish theft the same way we punish murder, or even robbery. If reconciliation is possible, it has to have some relationship to the scale of the transgression and, of course, the inclinations and willingness of the marriage partners. I’m sure for some here, by what I’m gathering, they would have gone to DEFCON 5 already. I think most would take a more measured approach and look to heal what’s hurt, mend what’s broken. This thing, whatever label you give it, has been immeasurably painful, for both of us.
> 
> Even taking her current position, that she was genuinely blind to what was going on, didn’t see his intentions, didn’t have any intentions or assign meaning to what she wrote to him, and only now, in hindsight understands that three hour lunches are inappropriate, she takes full responsibility for lying to me about the texts. That alone provides her with what she describes as the biggest mistake of her life.
> 
> Still, that’s not enough, and I’m well entrenched in the camp that believes she was aware of his intentions, and enjoyed his company and texting that she knew I wouldn’t be happy with if I saw- feeling that as long as it didn’t go beyond that, it didn’t conflict with how she believes herself to be. Perhaps a blind spot, a self-deception, I’m not versed in psychology enough to speculate. Cognitive dissonance best describes what I still think she’s experiencing right now. It’s a longer version of the same lie that she told when I first told her I had all the original, unedited, non-curated texts. It made no sense to continue to lie at that point, having been caught red-handed, so to speak, but there she was, for a panicked minute, trying to convince me that she had deleted them randomly, just to save space on her phone.
> 
> She still clings to the position that she didn’t know what he wanted, believing he was just behaving as a friend and that her texts to him didn’t “mean” what they seem to mean to everyone else. Even the word “adore” which she used in one text, (I completely adore and miss you) she says means to her how you would use it to a friend- something I guess I would say differently, if I tried to think like her- perhaps, said you’re a really great person, etc. I still can’t imagine using completely adore and miss you to another person, let alone a woman, unless I had very, very strong emotional feelings for them. Beating this horse to death, of course, but has anyone experiences anything like this? With the totality of the texts, and the long lunches, to deny their meaning seems the verbal equivalent of a spouse denying they were physically cheating when you find the condom, the motel receipts, the emails about how great you were last night. It’s really troubling and I’m now convinced there are serious cognitive dissonance issues. So, Friday is our first appointment with the therapist.



You two are both very different people (from the descriptions here). You are the analytical type (who would think carefully about every word, before saying it), she is the outgoing/impulsive/playful type. You complement each other and that’s why your marriage worked all those years. But that is also the reason (IMV) why you find it so difficult to see this situation from her perspective. 
Everything you wrote above with how she explains it completely makes sense to me. She is not minimising it, she is saying honestly how she viewed their friendship.

As far as how it can hurt more...Just read some of the threads here. Imagine you discovered tapes both of them having kinky sex in parking lots, back of her car, your marital bed while you were at work, lunch breaks, or wherever. Sending each other private photos. Doing sexual stuff she would never do with you. Saying stuff to him she would never say to you. 
Would it hurt more or less than it is hurting now?
Don’t make yourself crazy. Don’t make this marriage her prison. She’s human. And she seems to love you. 
Don’t really know what else to say to help. Maybe invite him over and make them both have sex, to get it over and done with?  (you know, like homeopathy).
Ok, too early to joke. You’ll get through it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Physics

InMyPrime said:


> You two are both very different people (from the descriptions here). You are the analytical type (who would think carefully about every word, before saying it), she is the outgoing/impulsive/playful type. You complement each other and that’s why your marriage worked all those years. But that is also the reason (IMV) why you find it so difficult to see this situation from her perspective.
> Everything you wrote above with how she explains it completely makes sense to me. She is not minimising it, she is saying honestly how she viewed their friendship.
> 
> As far as how it can hurt more...Just read some of the threads here. Imagine you discovered tapes both of them having kinky sex in parking lots, back of her car, your marital bed while you were at work, lunch breaks, or wherever. Sending each other private photos. Doing sexual stuff she would never do with you. Saying stuff to him she would never say to you.
> Would it hurt more or less than it is hurting now?
> Don’t make yourself crazy. Don’t make this marriage her prison. She’s human. And she seems to love you.
> Don’t really know what else to say to help. Maybe invite him over and make them both have sex, to get it over and done with? <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" ></a> (you know, like homeopathy).
> Ok, too early to joke. You’ll get through it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the levity and analysis. However, she’s not the outgoing, playful, impulsive type at all. She’s more socially outgoing than me in large groups, better at small talk, etc, but she’s not at all the type to be indiscriminate with her words. She measures twice, cuts once....with everything. She’s an extraordinarily conscientious, thoughtful and cautious person. She isn’t by any stretch that natural extrovert, life of the party, socially or ever sexually promiscuous. She never even dated anyone in high school, or even college. Never smoked weed, ever. Never drank until college. Really, honestly. She’s not a risk taker, in words or actions. That said, with all due respect and appreciation for trying, but you’ve missed the ball on this one.


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## Chaparral

You really need to check phone records. There is no reason not to. 

Someone mentioned two three hour lunches. I thought you said three lunches. Then there was the party. Parties I go to include alcohol. Was she tipsy when she came home? 

You were also asked if your sex life changed any during this time period. Did it? Better, worse?


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## 269370

Physics said:


> Thanks for the levity and analysis. However, she’s not the outgoing, playful, impulsive type at all. She’s more socially outgoing than me in large groups, better at small talk, etc, but she’s not at all the type to be indiscriminate with her words. She measures twice, cuts once....with everything. She’s an extraordinarily conscientious, thoughtful and cautious person. She isn’t by any stretch that natural extrovert, life of the party, socially or ever sexually promiscuous. She never even dated anyone in high school, or even college. Never smoked weed, ever. Never drank until college. Really, honestly. She’s not a risk taker, in words or actions. That said, with all due respect and appreciation for trying, but you’ve missed the ball on this one.



Maybe...It’s always hard when you don’t have the input form the second party. 
(I didn’t mean to imply that she might be promiscuous or not careful with her words btw...Just that you both strike me as very different people).

Is it possible she has certain sides to her that she perhaps doesn’t or hasn’t been comfortable sharing with you (as much)? This might be something worth exploring IMO.

When you read the texts, were you not surprised (aside from the context) by the tone with which she was writing them?

You see these are her actual words in the texts and to me, they don’t 100% match your descriptions of her. I don’t get the feel from the texts that she is an introvert or all that cautious, as you described. It might be that she shows more of her introvert side and cautiousness with you because that’s how she feels you would accept her. (Just a guess. I’m sure I’m missing the balls with this one as well).


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## Chaparral

Why do you assume the inappropriate hug was in the restaurant? I would assume it was in the parking lot after he walked her to her car. Had they been having drinks? Did he kiss her or try?


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## farsidejunky

Physics said:


> I’m not putting all or most of the blame on the OM. Far from it, in fact. I only included the recent info about him and my analysis to add another useful layer to understand the totality of the story. As for my wife being an amazing person, yes, she is. One big mistake here, either the emotional affair or lying/curating the texts doesn't destroy 20 years of an amazing relationship. It damages it, it damages the trust, certainly. Understandably, there are levels of deceit, no doubt experienced here by many, that far and away exceed what I’ve recently experienced. I don’t know how it would be possible to hurt more than I’ve hurt with this, but I’d imagine it could be worse having read some of the horrible stories here.
> Just as in criminal justice, we don’t punish theft the same way we punish murder, or even robbery. If reconciliation is possible, it has to have some relationship to the scale of the transgression and, of course, the inclinations and willingness of the marriage partners. I’m sure for some here, by what I’m gathering, they would have gone to DEFCON 5 already. I think most would take a more measured approach and look to heal what’s hurt, mend what’s broken. This thing, whatever label you give it, has been immeasurably painful, for both of us.
> 
> Even taking her current position, that she was genuinely blind to what was going on, didn’t see his intentions, didn’t have any intentions or assign meaning to what she wrote to him, and only now, in hindsight understands that three hour lunches are inappropriate, she takes full responsibility for lying to me about the texts. That alone provides her with what she describes as the biggest mistake of her life.
> 
> Still, that’s not enough, and I’m well entrenched in the camp that believes she was aware of his intentions, and enjoyed his company and texting that she knew I wouldn’t be happy with if I saw- feeling that as long as it didn’t go beyond that, it didn’t conflict with how she believes herself to be. Perhaps a blind spot, a self-deception, I’m not versed in psychology enough to speculate. Cognitive dissonance best describes what I still think she’s experiencing right now. It’s a longer version of the same lie that she told when I first told her I had all the original, unedited, non-curated texts. It made no sense to continue to lie at that point, having been caught red-handed, so to speak, but there she was, for a panicked minute, trying to convince me that she had deleted them randomly, just to save space on her phone.
> 
> She still clings to the position that she didn’t know what he wanted, believing he was just behaving as a friend and that her texts to him didn’t “mean” what they seem to mean to everyone else. Even the word “adore” which she used in one text, (I completely adore and miss you) she says means to her how you would use it to a friend- something I guess I would say differently, if I tried to think like her- perhaps, said you’re a really great person, etc. I still can’t imagine using completely adore and miss you to another person, let alone a woman, unless I had very, very strong emotional feelings for them. Beating this horse to death, of course, but has anyone experiences anything like this? With the totality of the texts, and the long lunches, to deny their meaning seems the verbal equivalent of a spouse denying they were physically cheating when you find the condom, the motel receipts, the emails about how great you were last night. It’s really troubling and I’m now convinced there are serious cognitive dissonance issues. So, Friday is our first appointment with the therapist.


You are falling into the classic trap that she is somehow special or unique.

In short, we see it here ALL THE TIME.

She is a run-of-the-mill wayward with poor boundaries.

Stop trying to find some reason she is special...or unique...or needs some customized treatment...and start treating her exactly how she has behaved: ordinary.

That starts with your effort level coming to a screeching halt.

"Wife, you lied. You deleted messages. You were in physical proximity to him with all of the aforementioned. That means in my mind that this was both physical and emotional, and I will continue to believe it until I see something concrete that says otherwise...besides your word...which has zero credibility now. In short, you broke it...and if you want our marriage to survive, maybe you should find a way to start fixing it."





Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Physics

Chaparral said:


> Why do you assume the inappropriate hug was in the restaurant? I would assume it was in the parking lot after he walked her to her car. Had they been having drinks? Did he kiss her or try?


Indeed, you are correct. I followed up and asked her where they were when the uncomfortable hug happened. It was in the parking lot. I didn’t ask her about whether he tried to kiss her, but at this point, she knows for sure that a failure to mention this and mentioning it now, would be another violation, a lie of omission. Whether he did or not, and I suspect he didn’t, his intentions were and are crystal clear, hug or no hug.


----------



## Robert22205

Has the OM attempted to reach out to her since you confronted her about the texts?


----------



## 269370

I must be going insane...but why on Earth does it matter where they hugged? Or why does it make her a liar by omission?
Isn’t it normal to hug a friend? Were they saying bye to each other? Sometimes friends give a peck on the cheek as well when they meet...Did she mention those?
Do you have friends in the law enforcement? You could request CCTV footage...
Anyway, I hope you find what you are looking for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Malaise

Physics said:


> Thanks for the levity and analysis. However, *she’s not the outgoing, playful, impulsive type at all. * She’s more socially outgoing than me in large groups, better at small talk, etc, but *she’s not at all the type to be indiscriminate with her words.* She measures twice, cuts once....with everything. She’s an extraordinarily conscientious, thoughtful and cautious person. She isn’t by any stretch that natural extrovert, life of the party, socially or ever sexually promiscuous. She never even dated anyone in high school, or even college. Never smoked weed, ever. Never drank until college. Really, honestly. She’s not a risk taker, in words or actions. That said, with all due respect and appreciation for trying, but you’ve missed the ball on this one.


This description of your wife seems, to me at least, to make your wife less innocent.

If she's not impulsive, playful, etc, then what she did was very deliberate.

As I said before, she knew what she was doing.


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## Marc878

The hardest thing a friend of mine had was coming to the reality his xwife was just a typical cheater. Nothing special at all. 

The sad thing is you can thriw most of these episodes in a bag and for the most part they all look the same.


----------



## Music_Man

Physics said:


> Is anyone familiar with this type of calculation, this long game of patience? It can’t only ever be just about the sex, right? It’s far easier for him to have bought a prostitute or to have found some piece of trash girlfriend if he only needed to get laid. I suppose, however, at 50 years old now, maybe he’s also looking to relive some of his younger days and my wife gave him the opportunity and fertilized his mind, appearing receptive to his advances. Even a manipulative monster can love his mother and yearn for something.


The doctor who was my wife's AP (EA) took considerable time- as she was his ultimate prize. Turns out, he was a serial cheater, and had already moved on to another side piece once my W started rejecting his physical advances. I'm fortunate that he stopped doing the things that my W really liked (compliments and flirting) and moved on in for the kill. If he hadn't have skipped a couple of steps, I fear a full-blown PA was eminent. 

Some similarities in the way things started with texting. This guy you're dealing with is definitely out for something more than a piece of ass. He wants to make your wife his own. He certainly had a nice foundation laid, but it seems you caught it- and not a moment too soon. 

Also, as others have mentioned, and take it from someone who once believed as you did- take your wife down off of the pedestal you've place her on. This really is a typical EA that's on its way to becoming a PA. It is what it is, and the sooner you come to the realization that your wife is human with flaws, the better off you will be- AND it will help with continued evidence gathering and seeing this whole thing in a new perspective. 

Stay the course and see this thing through, the right way. Good advice is contained not only in this thread, but others on CWI as well.


----------



## Aspydad

You love your wife deeply - no question. Certainly, she is one of those people that are liked by everyone. She makes other people feel special. But, she is human and has faults - just like the rest of us (and you). Her letting this man enter your life as she did, is the ultimate betrayal. She needed this other man's comfort during a low point in her life - and NOT yours. Physics, your logical mind is trying to protect your Heart (your Gut Feelings) from devastating you - I think we all have this kind of protection mechanism built into us to some extent - but, that is what is happening here. I tell you, you have let this smolder long enough. It is time to confront (and by the way - everything will not be just as before - you will still be devastated) and tell your wife - "if you want to remain married to me - you will cut this other man completely out of your life - NOW!!". Do this in person - and I tell you - when you say this she will see the absolute PAIN in your eyes - she will see the devastation SHE has caused (not the other man - SHE IS AT FAULT!!) Be ready - know your rights - I would say have the divorce papers ready to go - so yes you need to contact lawyer like yesterday. If she hesitates one second - hand her the papers and let her know you are done.


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## re16

Physics

What if you drive together to the parking lot of polygraph testing facility, you imply you've set up an appointment even though you haven't. Tell her any lies on the polygraph and its over, then proceed to ask her direct questions in the car. I guarantee more information will come out.

Its called a parking lot confession and it works.

You need to ask tough questions though and not tip toe around what you might not want to hear.

Did you kiss OM?
Did you have sex with OM?


----------



## The Middleman

re16 said:


> Physics
> 
> What if you drive together to the parking lot of polygraph testing facility, you imply you've set up an appointment even though you haven't. Tell her any lies on the polygraph and its over, then proceed to ask her direct questions in the car. I guarantee more information will come out.
> 
> Its called a parking lot confession and it works.
> 
> You need to ask tough questions though and not tip toe around what you might not want to here.
> 
> Did you kiss OM?
> Did you have sex with OM?


I don’t think @Physics is going to answer hypothetical questions. He doesn’t seem into that. He didn’t answer the ones That I proposed.


----------



## re16

Physics said:


> Just as in criminal justice, we don’t punish theft the same way we punish murder, or even robbery.


This is correct, but one very important caveat, all the evidence is considered to determine what crime has been committed prior to assigning a proper punishment.




Based on TAM standards, you've barely taken step one on evidence gathering. (like running fonelab to recover deleted texts and reviewing the call history with his phone number with your carrier)



It seems like you decided early on that what she did isn't that bad and there is no possible way it could be what some of us think it could it be. We are telling you that you need to dig deeper.

Years later, you will end up replaying all this in your mind and will regret not gathering all the potential evidence now.


----------



## Marduk

farsidejunky said:


> You are falling into the classic trap that she is somehow special or unique.
> 
> In short, we see it here ALL THE TIME.
> 
> She is a run-of-the-mill wayward with poor boundaries.
> 
> Stop trying to find some reason she is special...or unique...or needs some customized treatment...and start treating her exactly how she has behaved: ordinary.
> 
> That starts with your effort level coming to a screeching halt.
> 
> "Wife, you lied. You deleted messages. You were in physical proximity to him with all of the aforementioned. That means in my mind that this was both physical and emotional, and I will continue to believe it until I see something concrete that says otherwise...besides your word...which has zero credibility now. In short, you broke it...and if you want our marriage to survive, maybe you should find a way to start fixing it."


Totally agree, and I suspect - as is typical - that she won't even start taking this seriously or even honestly until she sees him pack his bags and head for the door, even metaphorically.

Sometimes you need to risk a marriage to save a marriage.


----------



## Music_Man

Marduk said:


> Totally agree, and I suspect - as is typical - that she won't even start taking this seriously or even honestly until she sees him pack his bags and head for the door, even metaphorically.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes you need to risk a marriage to save a marriage.


Yep. There are handful of key moments that gave our marriage a chance at true R, but chief among was me not only being willing to pack up and leave, but actually doing it. Seeing is believing. 

OP- Time to stop overanalyzing and start putting action behind your words. Trust those of us that have been there- it's the only way.


----------



## Marduk

Music_Man said:


> Yep. There are handful of key moments that gave our marriage a chance at true R, but chief among was me not only being willing to pack up and leave, but actually doing it. Seeing is believing.
> 
> OP- Time to stop overanalyzing and start putting action behind your words. Trust those of us that have been there- it's the only way.


Many things are easy to debate theoretically. Like when my wife said she’d be just fine with me doing what she was doing. Because it was theoretical. 

Words are theoretical. Actions are real. That’s often when the bluff and bluster and rationalizations can start to fall away. 

It’s hard to debate with a closed door and an empty bed.


----------



## Decorum

farsidejunky said:


> She is a run-of-the-mill wayward with poor boundaries.


Exactly!!!

A gaslighting run-of-the-mill wayward with poor boundaries.

"I was wrong but I did nothing wrong, because I didn't intend on doing anything wrong and that is why I lied to you and tried to hide the inappropriate relationship I was having with him, because it wasn't inappropriate on my side, and I don't believe he meant it to be so on his side, but I understand why you might feel it was, and I promise, promise, promise it will never happen again, and I will spend the rest of my life making it up to you. Honest!!!"

This is the cognitive dissonance between what we are telling Physics, and what she is feeding him. 

/Light switch on!


----------



## MEM2020

Ah yes - the standard male fixation on the mechanics of betrayal. 

Instead of repeating the same conversation again, the one where she pretends she didn’t understand the most basic interaction pattern between human pairs - and you feel aggrieved and gas lit....

Why don’t you ask her: What is it about our marriage, that enabled you to start falling in Love this fast? 

And then - in the frozen silence add: Relax - that’s an US thing, not a YOU thing. And I’m not seeking an advantage, rather trying to understand how our connection seemed to provide so little insulation in this situation.

But don’t walk into the kitchen, unless you are fully prepared to accept the heat, however high it is. 

Right now - your current approach isn’t just failing, it’s likely to create a real adversarial posture. 

Put down the straw and ask her a ballsy open ended question and then gently encourage her to talk. 

The other way to frame it is: what can we do differently so that temptation doesn’t strike so quickly and with such apparent ease....





Physics said:


> I’m not putting all or most of the blame on the OM. Far from it, in fact. I only included the recent info about him and my analysis to add another useful layer to understand the totality of the story. As for my wife being an amazing person, yes, she is. One big mistake here, either the emotional affair or lying/curating the texts doesn't destroy 20 years of an amazing relationship. It damages it, it damages the trust, certainly. Understandably, there are levels of deceit, no doubt experienced here by many, that far and away exceed what I’ve recently experienced. I don’t know how it would be possible to hurt more than I’ve hurt with this, but I’d imagine it could be worse having read some of the horrible stories here.
> Just as in criminal justice, we don’t punish theft the same way we punish murder, or even robbery. If reconciliation is possible, it has to have some relationship to the scale of the transgression and, of course, the inclinations and willingness of the marriage partners. I’m sure for some here, by what I’m gathering, they would have gone to DEFCON 5 already. I think most would take a more measured approach and look to heal what’s hurt, mend what’s broken. This thing, whatever label you give it, has been immeasurably painful, for both of us.
> 
> Even taking her current position, that she was genuinely blind to what was going on, didn’t see his intentions, didn’t have any intentions or assign meaning to what she wrote to him, and only now, in hindsight understands that three hour lunches are inappropriate, she takes full responsibility for lying to me about the texts. That alone provides her with what she describes as the biggest mistake of her life.
> 
> Still, that’s not enough, and I’m well entrenched in the camp that believes she was aware of his intentions, and enjoyed his company and texting that she knew I wouldn’t be happy with if I saw- feeling that as long as it didn’t go beyond that, it didn’t conflict with how she believes herself to be. Perhaps a blind spot, a self-deception, I’m not versed in psychology enough to speculate. Cognitive dissonance best describes what I still think she’s experiencing right now. It’s a longer version of the same lie that she told when I first told her I had all the original, unedited, non-curated texts. It made no sense to continue to lie at that point, having been caught red-handed, so to speak, but there she was, for a panicked minute, trying to convince me that she had deleted them randomly, just to save space on her phone.
> 
> She still clings to the position that she didn’t know what he wanted, believing he was just behaving as a friend and that her texts to him didn’t “mean” what they seem to mean to everyone else. Even the word “adore” which she used in one text, (I completely adore and miss you) she says means to her how you would use it to a friend- something I guess I would say differently, if I tried to think like her- perhaps, said you’re a really great person, etc. I still can’t imagine using completely adore and miss you to another person, let alone a woman, unless I had very, very strong emotional feelings for them. Beating this horse to death, of course, but has anyone experiences anything like this? With the totality of the texts, and the long lunches, to deny their meaning seems the verbal equivalent of a spouse denying they were physically cheating when you find the condom, the motel receipts, the emails about how great you were last night. It’s really troubling and I’m now convinced there are serious cognitive dissonance issues. So, Friday is our first appointment with the therapist.


----------



## [email protected]

Physics, take a look at what MEM2020 posted. If you put the blame on the OM, you are doomed to failure. Your WW betrayed you, not the OM.


----------



## Decorum

Physics said:


> As an aside, and to provide some possibly useful information, several months prior, my wife lost her wonderful father quite suddenly, and she was no doubt still grieving to some degree. They were very close and we miss him very much. Coincidentally, her friend’s mother was dying of cancer, no doubt adding to his emotional burden. To make matters worse, three months after this initial meet up and a couple of months after their first three hour lunch, my wife’s mother was also diagnosed with terminal cancer. This was just this past spring and she passed away less than six weeks from diagnosis, one month or so after her friend’s mom had died.
> 
> So, emotional stage setting now done,





MEM2020 said:


> Ah yes - the standard male fixation on the mechanics of betrayal.
> 
> Instead of repeating the same conversation again, the one where she pretends she didn’t understand the most basic interaction pattern between human pairs - and you feel aggrieved and gas lit....
> 
> Why don’t you ask her: What is it about our marriage, that enabled you to start falling in Love this fast?
> 
> And then - in the frozen silence add: Relax - that’s an US thing, not a YOU thing. And I’m not seeking an advantage, rather trying to understand how our connection seemed to provide so little insulation in this situation.
> 
> But don’t walk into the kitchen, unless you are fully prepared to accept the heat, however high it is.
> 
> Right now - your current approach isn’t just failing, it’s likely to create a real adversarial posture.
> 
> Put down the straw and ask her a ballsy open ended question and then gently encourage her to talk.
> 
> The other way to frame it is: what can we do differently so that temptation doesn’t strike so quickly and with such apparent ease....




I don't agree that there was something wrong or missing from their marriage.

Not at all.

"Change", I think that is the impetus here, and it is one of the most common factors, and you can see it here over and over again.

A new job, an illness, a death of a loved one, a relocation, a new boss, a new friend, etc, and the foundations of a persons life change is an unavoidable paradigm shift. 

And how one responds to it is a matter of character and life experience. 

I think trying to look for something else will only confond the obvious here.

Any one of these can create an emotional vaccum for a woman. She becomes vulnerable, and walks aroung with an lymbic emotional availability, that begs for fulfillment. 

She used poor judgment and handeled it poorly. 

Dont make it more complicated than this.

Farside is right, "run of the mill..."

ETA: and when I use the phrase "how she handled it", I mean the emptiness of the grieving process, the resultant emotional vaccum in her life, and the approach of temptation.


----------



## Robert22205

I agree with the above and point out that this is also a good example of the risks associated with old HS friends reconnecting. 
Even though there’s little to no contact for 30 years there is an immediate sense that they ‘know’ this person. 

Reconnecting stirs up the pleasant carefree feelings of youth (including fantasies of what could have been….) which in turn encourages an inappropriate false sense of familiarity/bonding. Although his voice and smile seem so familiar to her, he’s essentially a stranger that she immediately shares emotional intimacies (her emotional needs) that are ordinarily restricted to a select few trust worthy people (husband, a relative, another woman, or an IC). 

Within two months of reconnecting they agree to set aside conventional boundaries and give each other permission to think & talk as lovers (with the rational that their intentions are pure). 

Add in their grief relating to their parents, and it's easy for her to confuse/explain the high the OM triggers in her by convincing herself that the OM is more empathetic than her husband. At some point between unconsciously graving the youthful high and consciously recognizing his unique (in her head) empathy for sharing her grief, it's very difficult for a husband to compete - and it could be very difficult for her to go NC.


----------



## Robert22205

Physics ...how are you doing? Is your wife still insisting that she did nothing wrong? Has she been in contact with the OM since you exposed the deleted texts?

It's ok to check to just vent your feelings.

Have you guys read some of the books that were recommended (particularly Not Just Friends by Dr Glass)?


----------



## bandit.45

So.... what does a “treatise in meaning”....mean?


----------



## alte Dame

bandit.45 said:


> So.... what does a “treatise in meaning”....mean?


I wondered this, too. The 'treatise' part seems clear given the length of the OP. The 'meaning' could mean a lot of different things, I suppose.


----------



## Physics

Robert22205 said:


> Physics ...how are you doing? Is your wife still insisting that she did nothing wrong? Has she been in contact with the OM since you exposed the deleted texts?
> 
> It's ok to check to just vent your feelings.
> 
> Have you guys read some of the books that were recommended (particularly Not Just Friends by Dr Glass)?


Well, I’m not really sure how we’re doing since I have no benchmark in this arena. It’s new territory for both of us, and it’s a terrible, horrific process to go through. I’ve not slept more than 5 hours in a night in over a month, and that’s with the help of prescription sleep aids which I’d never needed my whole life. It’s trauma, plainly spoken to describe it and the process to get through it, honestly. We went to our first therapy session last Friday and are planning several more this coming week, so that’s a good thing. I like the guy, he’s warm, compassionate and balanced. 
We’ve talked about the book, Not Just Friends, and I’ve been reading a copy online a bit. We’re going to read it together at some point, no doubt. She’s very much aware now the nature of “how” this happens to people, that boundaries should be there in thoughts, words and actions to prevent this from happening again. 
I’m still deeply troubled by how she still claims to have been in such a state of mind throughout this entire trajectory, through their last long lunch, that she never recognized the inappropriateness of the relationship in the context of our marriage. Compartmentalism, cognitive dissonance, can these really make a person so blind? Is the mind protecting itself from reality in order to continue to satisfy the demand for the attention she was getting from the other man? I can understand childhood traumas can be “hidden” by the mind with protection mechanisms, buried, but could this feeling she was getting from him rise to such a degree where the mind can filter things and make possible a defense of not knowing what she meant with her words or what she understood from his? I can’t fathom that this could develop so incredibly rapidly to strip that filter, those boundaries away so quickly. 

I struggle for an analog in my life, reaching back to high school. I had one very close female friend that I never dated or became physical with, but we would talk very often on the phone at length. We were very close, and honestly, I would have welcomed a physical relationship with her. She mostly dated guys from another school, and it never materialized with us. Perhaps she never considered me in that realm, and I never let her know that I would have wanted more. 

Still, I can’t imagine being so transfixed, so hypnotized by our past emotional connections that I wouldn’t recognize boundary violations that are so damned obvious to everyone who has read the texts! It wouldn’t feel right to have HER say “Love you” to me or call me “sweetheart” or “feel me deeply” “stay warm” “missing you” “look forward to the time we spend together, alone” “hope you’re staying warm and cozy” “you’ve been in my thoughts often” “I missed you and felt it strongly this afternoon” “You are beautiful and I could have hugged you a hundred times today”

The list goes on and on, including the inappropriate Emojis. And that’s just what HE said to her, not including what she said back, affirming, enhancing and mirroring his feelings with her words. What she DIDN’T say to him to put the brakes on what was obviously inappropriate and wrong to think about her, to say to her, is equally baffling and inappropriate by itself. I can’t imagine myself staking a claim of unawareness to this, let alone to what I had said if the tables were turned. If a woman is stroking my hair, touching my knee, looking deeply into my eyes, licking her lips, squeezing her thighs together sexually, I’m not going to miss that as a sign that she wants something more from me. I see the language as the equivalent level of obviousness as the physical example above. I still leave the door open, however, for someone with an advanced understanding of the mind to explain these mechanisms.


----------



## Physics

alte Dame said:


> bandit.45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So.... what does a “treatise in meaning”....mean?
> 
> 
> 
> I wondered this, too. The 'treatise' part seems clear given the length of the OP. The 'meaning' could mean a lot of different things, I suppose.
Click to expand...

The treatise in meaning was referencing my struggle between the words and the bridge to the other person’s mind, their intent, their true feelings. Words are windows to the mind.


----------



## 269370

Physics said:


> Well, I’m not really sure how we’re doing since I have no benchmark in this arena. It’s new territory for both of us, and it’s a terrible, horrific process to go through. I’ve not slept more than 5 hours in a night in over a month, and that’s with the help of prescription sleep aids which I’d never needed my whole life. It’s trauma, plainly spoken to describe it and the process to get through it, honestly. We went to our first therapy session last Friday and are planning several more this coming week, so that’s a good thing. I like the guy, he’s warm, compassionate and balanced.
> We’ve talked about the book, Not Just Friends, and I’ve been reading a copy online a bit. We’re going to read it together at some point, no doubt. She’s very much aware now the nature of “how” this happens to people, that boundaries should be there in thoughts, words and actions to prevent this from happening again.
> I’m still deeply troubled by how she still claims to have been in such a state of mind throughout this entire trajectory, through their last long lunch, that she never recognized the inappropriateness of the relationship in the context of our marriage. Compartmentalism, cognitive dissonance, can these really make a person so blind? Is the mind protecting itself from reality in order to continue to satisfy the demand for the attention she was getting from the other man? I can understand childhood traumas can be “hidden” by the mind with protection mechanisms, buried, but could this feeling she was getting from him rise to such a degree where the mind can filter things and make possible a defense of not knowing what she meant with her words or what she understood from his? I can’t fathom that this could develop so incredibly rapidly to strip that filter, those boundaries away so quickly.
> 
> I struggle for an analog in my life, reaching back to high school. I had one very close female friend that I never dated or became physical with, but we would talk very often on the phone at length. We were very close, and honestly, I would have welcomed a physical relationship with her. She mostly dated guys from another school, and it never materialized with us. Perhaps she never considered me in that realm, and I never let her know that I would have wanted more.
> 
> Still, I can’t imagine being so transfixed, so hypnotized by our past emotional connections that I wouldn’t recognize boundary violations that are so damned obvious to everyone who has read the texts! It wouldn’t feel right to have HER say “Love you” to me or call me “sweetheart” or “feel me deeply” “stay warm” “missing you” “look forward to the time we spend together, alone” “hope you’re staying warm and cozy” “you’ve been in my thoughts often” “I missed you and felt it strongly this afternoon” “You are beautiful and I could have hugged you a hundred times today”
> 
> The list goes on and on, including the inappropriate Emojis. And that’s just what HE said to her, not including what she said back, affirming, enhancing and mirroring his feelings with her words. What she DIDN’T say to him to put the brakes on what was obviously inappropriate and wrong to think about her, to say to her, is equally baffling and inappropriate by itself. I can’t imagine myself staking a claim of unawareness to this, let alone to what I had said if the tables were turned. If a woman is stroking my hair, touching my knee, looking deeply into my eyes, licking her lips, squeezing her thighs together sexually, I’m not going to miss that as a sign that she wants something more from me. I see the language as the equivalent level of obviousness as the physical example above. I still leave the door open, however, for someone with an advanced understanding of the mind to explain these mechanisms.



I tried. But you dismiss it...
You are not looking for opinions, you are only accepting opinions that fit your perception (look up confirmation bias). But this happens probably 95% of the time when people come here with a problem. The problem is that it makes it impossible to help them see it from a slightly different POV. They just won’t.

Just as a mental exercise, if the guy was gay (and your wife was a lesbian) and they said the exact same things to each other, what would be your reaction? 
And also: is there anything in the texts that would be completely at odds for a homosexual person to say to another person?

This ‘squeezing her lips’ and ‘licking her thighs’ seems like an apples and oranges comparison...There’s nothing sexual in the texts whatsoever. It’s your mind.

You don’t mention what your wife is saying NOW: what does she want? Does she agree with your perception of things?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mickybill

After the therapy session has she come around, any change in thoughts?
Does she understand now that the OM was out of line?
Does she know that she also was going along with it if not encouraging it, and stopped playing the naive girl card?

"stay warm" “hope you’re staying warm and cozy” “you’ve been in my thoughts often” “I missed you and felt it strongly this afternoon”?" That is love talk not friend talk.


----------



## Marc878

While no marriage is perfect even a supposedly good marriage can have infidelity. 

That's why boundaries are key. Close one on ones (your wife and OM were basically dating, I'm sure you see that now) with the opposite sex is like walking on a ledge. There is always a risk of falling off. If you don't walk on the ledge you can't.

My sister was a very pious person, went to church regularly, taught Sunday school, etc. She ended up getting to close with her boss and the excitement and fantasy overrode her morals and common sense.

Her husband at the time was a very good guy, provided well for the family, etc. everyone thought they had a great marriage. Was it perfect? No but whose is?

Her affair from what I saw was her boundary issue. So this "there had to be a problem in the marriage" that brought on the cheating is BS. I was close to them and this was totally all on her. It's not gender specific either.


----------



## The Middleman

Physics said:


> The treatise in meaning was referencing my struggle between the words and the bridge to the other person’s mind, their intent, their true feelings. Words are windows to the mind.


What is the situation now between your wile and the OM? 

No Contact?
Did the no contact letter go out?
Did you get a chance to see it before it went out?
Can we assume that if you don’t reply, that your wife has not told the OM that their relationship is over?


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## Robert22205

I don't pretend to have an advanced understanding of the your wife's state of mind. But I've been in therapy, read a lot, interacted with people of all ages under a wide variety of circumstances and survived what you are going through. Still it's just my opinion (and if it helps take it).

People are complicated and their motives are a constantly changing daily mix of long & short term. IMO the OM came along at the right time to benefit from and trigger your wife's vulnerability to: aging, regrets from her youth, depression, boredom, over scheduled, not enough 'me' time, feeling unappreciated (the list is endless). There is an endless list of excuses people use to justify their behavior. 

As old HS friends, she starts off feeling too safe and too trusting and it's therefore tempting/easy for her to waive conventional boundaries based on what she remembers about the innocent noble adolescent version of this man. 

Contact with the OM made her feel good (and she wanted more); opportunity was provided by a plausible cover story (childhood friends, grief, the OM needs someone to talk to); she convinced herself that the relationship would not go physical - and she believed you would never know or be hurt (because you trust her so much). 

Unknown to you the husband ... you were competing with:

1 – as an old HS friend, there’s an immediate sense of familiarity and trust – plus the added intoxicating emotion of feeling young and being able to reclaim their youth again (free from the daily adult grind). 

2 – adding to the intoxicating mix of youthful emotions, a perfect storm of emotion suddenly arises where the wife experiences grief related to losing her parents - and the OM is all to ready to insert himself into the role of her: husband, trusted friend, or IC).


----------



## Marc878

No one can compete with a fantasy. That's why bringing reality to the forefront is imperative.


----------



## Robert22205

Physics ...sorry for my long winded opinion above.

IMO: Here's why she felt no guilt or shame until exposed:

Contact with the OM made her feel good (and she wanted more); opportunity was provided by a plausible cover story (childhood friends, grief, the OM needs someone to talk to); she convinced herself that the relationship would not go physical - and she believed you would never know or be hurt.


----------



## Physics

Robert22205 said:


> I don't pretend to have an advanced understanding of the your wife's state of mind. But I've been in therapy, read a lot, interacted with people of all ages under a wide variety of circumstances and survived what you are going through. Still it's just my opinion (and if it helps take it).
> 
> People are complicated and their motives are a constantly changing daily mix of long & short term. IMO the OM came along at the right time to benefit from and trigger your wife's vulnerability to: aging, regrets from her youth, depression, boredom, over scheduled, not enough 'me' time, feeling unappreciated (the list is endless). There is an endless list of excuses people use to justify their behavior.
> 
> As old HS friends, she starts off feeling too safe and too trusting and it's therefore tempting/easy for her to waive conventional boundaries based on what she remembers about the innocent noble adolescent version of this man.
> 
> Contact with the OM made her feel good (and she wanted more); opportunity was provided by a plausible cover story (childhood friends, grief, the OM needs someone to talk to); she convinced herself that the relationship would not go physical - and she believed you would never know or be hurt (because you trust her so much).
> 
> Unknown to you the husband ... you were competing with:
> 
> 1 – as an old HS friend, there’s an immediate sense of familiarity and trust – plus the added intoxicating emotion of feeling young and being able to reclaim their youth again (free from the daily adult grind).
> 
> 2 – adding to the intoxicating mix of youthful emotions, a perfect storm of emotion suddenly arises where the wife experiences grief related to losing her parents - and the OM is all to ready to insert himself into the role of her: husband, trusted friend, or IC).


Thank you, really, for an insightful post that is a great synthesis of many of the ideas circulating here in this thread.


----------



## Physics

The Middleman said:


> Physics said:
> 
> 
> 
> The treatise in meaning was referencing my struggle between the words and the bridge to the other person’s mind, their intent, their true feelings. Words are windows to the mind.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the situation now between your wile and the OM?
> 
> No Contact?
> Did the no contact letter go out?
> Did you get a chance to see it before it went out?
> Can we assume that if you don’t reply, that your wife has not told the OM that their relationship is over?
Click to expand...

She hasn’t told him, yet, but she will. She wanted to, initially, but I wanted to get a handle on things on our end first. He hasn't texted or contacted her since the last text. There will be words with this man, from me and from her.


----------



## niceguy47460

Have you done the text recovery yet


----------



## Robert22205

Can you share what was discussed in therapy? 

Not just for possible input from us - but also to assist other spouses that follow.

Did you and your wife sit next to one another (perhaps holding hands)?


----------



## mickybill

Robert22205 said:


> .
> 
> Did you and your wife sit next to one another (perhaps holding hands)?


FWIW the first MC meeting we sat together on the couch. All the rest she sat on couch, I sat in a chair.
Never really thought of that until now.


----------



## Physics

niceguy47460 said:


> Have you done the text recovery yet


 Yes, I used FoneLab and strangely it shows NO deleted texts, at all. I mean it shows no deleted texts on her phone, from anyone, in the entire search by FoneLab. I even deleted sent her phone a text, deleted it, then scanned again. No deleted texts on her phone. I restarted her phone, scanned again, and same result. No deleted texts. I did a scan of my phone and I had no deleted texts either. None. I deleted some, ran a scan. No deleted texts. Weird. I even tried another data retrieval software and still got no deleted texts. 

Perhaps it’s because only individual texts within the conversation were deleted and not the entire body of texts from the sender? I’m going to experiment more with my phone and try both, deleting entire conversations and more individual texts to see if it picks up on the scan.

Also, strangely, none of his calls were visible on either scan. I found one, two hour phone conversation on the T mobile bill while my mother in law was in the hospital, but nothing after that. He was helping her navigate some hospice issues and relaying his experience with his mother through the process, no doubt, but a two hour conversation gets well into the territory where, given all the other stuff, really bothers me. There’s only so much to talk about before they certainly fell into the realm of emotional support. As an island unto itself, just this alone, wouldn’t cause me grief, but this in combination and context with the totality hits a nerve.


----------



## Physics

Anyone have any idea how accurate these scans are with partial threads deleted or picking up all phone call activity? Seems like a total waste of money, honestly. I was able to pick up lots of other old phone calls, some further back than a year ago, with other people I know she talks to. Other friends of the marriage, etc. Still at issue is how to figure out, other than on the exact evening she admitted to doing it, when and if she deleted any other texts. In other words, I can’t know right now when she deleted what. I even know where she was, and she admitted to it, exactly, when she deleted at least some. I could see the panic when I finally said that I must see any texts very soon. I had, of course, already seen the original thread, but there are weird gaps where she didn’t reply to him at all. She immediately went and deleted texts after I made my demand and a few days, I think, later she showed the curated version to me. 

I’m leaning towards an innocent reason and that she maybe didn’t reply to him and that the scanning software just didn’t work for this purpose of seeing deletions from text threads but not entire thread entries. Any computer people want to chime in here? 

Additionally, she still claims, although now with “less certainty” because she’s been in such turmoil, that she still only carefully looked at any of the texts on Sep 25th, on the computer IMessage where they are stored in original form that I saw, when she was trying to figure out how she could possibly get me to see them from her perspective, as she lived them, as she experienced them. She was and is planning a thought exercise with me to hope that I’ll see it as she sees it, that although in hindsight there are inappropriate things said, she wasn’t aware of them when she lived it.


----------



## Physics

Robert22205 said:


> Can you share what was discussed in therapy?
> 
> Not just for possible input from us - but also to assist other spouses that follow.
> 
> Did you and your wife sit next to one another (perhaps holding hands)?


Well, interesting you’d ask. When we walked into the therapist’s room, he had it set up with two chairs, with a table between. My wife and I, almost immediately, and simultaneously, without even telling each other, requested the table be moved and the chairs pushed together so we could be close and hold hands as we always do. I even became emotional, and am somewhat again as I type this, as we explained this to the therapist.


----------



## 269370

Physics said:


> She was and is planning a thought exercise with me to hope that I’ll see it as she sees it, that although in hindsight there are inappropriate things said, she wasn’t aware of them when she lived it.



That’s....exactly what I have been trying to explain.
All that needs to happen really, is that she says sorry and admits to causing you this pain and you realising that it was not intentional on her part at the time when she maintained the friendship with her guy. And then they (you) lived happily ever after. That’s it.

Adding all these extra layers of intent and what could have happened but didn’t, seems like a big waste of time. Although I completely sympathise that it was painful at the time and maybe a necessary process.

He also helped her through a difficult time (regardless of his intentions). She got something positive out of it (support, not just flattery). I dunno, part of me would be happy for her. But maybe I am weird.
Anyway, I don’t know why I keep coming back to the thread. I have to stop reading it. I keep hoping for a simple resolution & happy ending.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Physics

InMyPrime said:


> Physics said:
> 
> 
> 
> She was and is planning a thought exercise with me to hope that I’ll see it as she sees it, that although in hindsight there are inappropriate things said, she wasn’t aware of them when she lived it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That’s....exactly what I have been trying to explain.
> All that needs to happen really, is that she says sorry and admits to causing you this pain and you realising that it was not intentional on her part at the time when she maintained the friendship with her guy. And then they (you) lived happily ever after. That’s it.
> 
> Adding all these extra layers of intent and what could have happened but didn’t, seems like a big waste of time. Although I completely sympathise that it was painful at the time and maybe a necessary process.
> 
> He also helped her through a difficult time (regardless of his intentions). She got something positive out of it (support, not just flattery). I dunno, part of me would be happy for her. But maybe I am weird.
> Anyway, I don’t know why I keep coming back to the thread. I have to stop reading it. I keep hoping for a simple resolution & happy ending.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

It’s the deception, the lies, the deleting of texts, the failure to acknowledge the true nature of the text exchanges, that’s terribly painful. Emotionally unfaithful or sexually unfaithful spouses do not intend to hurt the other person. They are in the inappropriate relationship for selfish reasons, whether to fill a void that is in a marriage, or just get something different that they desire. It’s rarely “against” the spouse as a direct, willful act to hurt them. Still, it does hurt them terribly because it goes to the core of a marriage- trust and the sacred emotional space where none other than their spouse belongs has been violated.


----------



## The Middleman

Physics said:


> She hasn’t told him, yet, but she will. She wanted to, initially, but I wanted to get a handle on things on our end first. He hasn't texted or contacted her since the last text. There will be words with this man, from me and from her.


I don’t know what your therapist is telling you about this, but I think that putting it off is a mistake. Just my 2 cents.

Has he tried reaching out?


----------



## Marc878

Physics said:


> Anyone have any idea how accurate these scans are with partial threads deleted or picking up all phone call activity? Seems like a total waste of money, honestly. I was able to pick up lots of other old phone calls, some further back than a year ago, with other people I know she talks to. Other friends of the marriage, etc. Still at issue is how to figure out, other than on the exact evening she admitted to doing it, when and if she deleted any other texts. In other words, I can’t know right now when she deleted what. I even know where she was, and she admitted to it, exactly, when she deleted at least some. I could see the panic when I finally said that I must see any texts very soon. I had, of course, already seen the original thread, but there are weird gaps where she didn’t reply to him at all. She immediately went and deleted texts after I made my demand and a few days, I think, later she showed the curated version to me.
> 
> I’m leaning towards an innocent reason and that she maybe didn’t reply to him and that the scanning software just didn’t work for this purpose of seeing deletions from text threads but not entire thread entries. Any computer people want to chime in here?
> 
> *Additionally, she still claims, although now with “less certainty” because she’s been in such turmoil, that she still only carefully looked at any of the texts on Sep 25th, on the computer IMessage where they are stored in original form that I saw, when she was trying to figure out how she could possibly get me to see them from her perspective, as she lived them, as she experienced them. She was and is planning a thought exercise with me to hope that I’ll see it as she sees it, that although in hindsight there are inappropriate things said, she wasn’t aware of them when she lived it.*


Uhhhh, then why delete and hide? Smells like justification. So maybe we can still be friends? Nope, not a chance.


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## Marc878

The Middleman said:


> I don’t know what your therapist is telling you about this, but I think that putting it off is a mistake. Just my 2 cents.
> 
> Has he tried reaching out?


If OM hasn't reached out it would be very odd. I'd bet he was warned using another form if communication not trackable.


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## alte Dame

The shock of this is going to wear off and when it does, you will likely feel much more pain. You won't be able to analyze it rationally and use the situation as a learning experience or example for psychological/philosophical understanding. You will, in other words, no longer have the shock to provide some emotional distance from the reality of what she has done.

In my opinion, she believed they were in a deep friendship and knew that much of how they were interacting was wrong and would hurt you. She had cognitive dissonance here, since she didn't feel like it threatened the marriage, but knew that it somehow threatened the marriage.

Do not underestimate the compartmentalization. She could luxuriate in her oneness with the OM and then go home to her family.

I think this is what you need to confront - she cannot have friendships like this. If she wants that closeness with a man, it must be with you. Period.


----------



## The Middleman

Marc878 said:


> If OM hasn't reached out it would be very odd. I'd bet he was warned using another form if communication not trackable.


I think your correct. I’d be shocked if he didn’t try reaching out, and a warning from her would be the only reason why he wouldn’t.


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## 269370

Physics said:


> It’s the deception, the lies, the deleting of texts, the failure to acknowledge the true nature of the text exchanges, that’s terribly painful. Emotionally unfaithful or sexually unfaithful spouses do not intend to hurt the other person. They are in the inappropriate relationship for selfish reasons, whether to fill a void that is in a marriage, or just get something different that they desire. It’s rarely “against” the spouse as a direct, willful act to hurt them. Still, it does hurt them terribly because it goes to the core of a marriage- trust and the sacred emotional space where none other than their spouse belongs has been violated.




Yes I understand that. I would also be furious about the deleted texts. You have the right to be.

But I really do believe she deleted them not in order to deceive you, but because she looked at them from your perspective and realised that you might attribute a different meaning to them than she herself and she would not be able to make you understand it and the opportunity was there to delete them...

Let’s put it this way: i may be wrong but I don’t think she would have left you if it continued. I think at some point, she would have realised where this was going (if it was continuing down the same path) and engaged her critical thinking and put a stop to it.

I did go roughly through the same thing with my wife; she really believes to this day it was completely innocent and if she had any idea that his intentions were what I said they were, she would never have replied to a single email. It’s the same ‘niceties’, the ‘miss you’ and ‘can’t wait to hear from you’, the hugs and kisses etc etc. Went on for several years. She does talk about me a bit too in those emails (not always in positive light, which kind of sucked, but also sort of confirms her narrative that it was like a diary for her). Anyway, this is not about me.

What can she possibly say to you that would redeem her in your eyes? If she admits to you that she secretly loved him, deep down, she loses. If she continues to insist that she had no idea it was anything more than friendship, she loses too (because you don’t believe her). What would be your ‘best case’ scenario for it to ‘go away’ for you? (Excluding time machine).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Robert22205

I ask the following question because a 'yes' would explain her behavior both before and after being confronted. 

Did you ask your wife how she feels toward the OM? Specifically: Does she love him? BTW: I'm not asking if she'd pick him over you (clearly she's smart and values the benefits of being married to you). Her behavior before and after the confrontation suggests a strong attachment.

Every spouse has a right to feel safe in their marriage. And every spouse has an obligation to conduct themselves in a way that is above suspicion. Your wife not only failed repeatedly over a 9 month period - but failed to break it off when confronted. She refused to stop seeing the OM until confronted a second time with the hard evidence of their flirty texts. 

My understanding is that while in retrospect after exposure she admits the texts were inappropriate - however, in her mind, over the 9 months she wrote and received the texts she did not interpret/intend the romantic/flirty words to actually trigger flirty or romantic feelings. IF so, why use flirty words and terms of endearment? 

Her reluctance may be a defense mechanism to protect her self image; ... or worse, she's attempting to preserve/protect a memory of her relationship (at least in her heart) with the OM as a form of pure love (not subject to conventional boundaries). 

Specifically, deleting the texts, lying to your face, dismissing your concerns when first confronted and immediately making plans to join the OM at a party undermines your right to feel safe from infidelity. She should have broke contact immediately following the first confrontation (because she knew back then that your concerns were valid). Her behavior (after the confrontation) in meeting the OM at the party is strong evidence of a strong emotional attachment for which she was willing to lie to her husband in order to preserve and pursue. 

Some posters raised a valid concern. They typically do not go for a month without communicating.

In view of the nature of their texts, her effort to continue meeting even after confrontation - and what appears to be a strong emotional bond, it would be very surprising for her to just go dark with no explanation to the OM (or for him to not reach out).

Reserve at least a small amount of skepticism that her tears and drama are entirely for you or her shame - but that her regret also includes her feelings toward the OM. 

Extended silence between them screams just the opposite.


----------



## Dragan Jovanovic

OP,why dont you just ask her if she had any sexual contact with him,and tell her that she will be taking a polygraph test so you could verify her words. And then do it. And if it is all like she says,it would be easier for you to go with your life.


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## Robert22205

In response to your FonLab search.

Physics....I don't use an i phone (or FonLab) but I know someone that does.

Can you provide the model of her phone and the texting app she uses?
Does the OM have an i phone?


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## Robert22205

Was there a record of other phone calls on her phone? Were just the calls between the two missing?


----------



## Chaparral

Do you have access to her phone bills?


----------



## Robert22205

Check your private messages.


----------



## SunCMars

Physics said:


> The treatise in meaning was referencing my struggle between the words and the bridge to the other person’s mind, their intent, their true feelings. Words are windows to the mind.


Unless she were an artist with many colorful hues and views available, you can assume that they meant as they were spelled, and impressed upon him.

When the words, dear and love, and miss you, are used as such, believe them at hard face value, oh, not to be taken lightly.

Who says a woman cannot love more than one man?

I suspect the fresher man, the newer smelling one, caught the stronger threads of love, those entangling him to her.
Than, to old you.

When cold, sitting in the sunlight feels good, feels better when shared with another cold feeling soul. She lost herself in the moment, knew it was wrong. It felt good, never-the-less.

Cognitive dissonance, seems such small words for such tall actions.

The new feelings she felt with him were those fresh, hardly those stale and old. 
It brought out this feeling of hers, that love feeling, so comforting, not thought bold.
Cognitive dissonance blurred out those past feelings, those so unhelpful, so drab, this, all told.



The Typist I-


----------



## MEM2020

Physics,
Your post below - is apex communication. When you speak to your wife like this she very likely feels respect and admiration for you. Most people never get here. It hurts too much. 

If you deliver that message in a calm and reassuring tone, as if you are describing a non fatal but serious car accident that happened to other people, you might start to get more transparency from her. 



Physics said:


> It’s the deception, the lies, the deleting of texts, the failure to acknowledge the true nature of the text exchanges, that’s terribly painful. Emotionally unfaithful or sexually unfaithful spouses do not intend to hurt the other person. They are in the inappropriate relationship for selfish reasons, whether to fill a void that is in a marriage, or just get something different that they desire. It’s rarely “against” the spouse as a direct, willful act to hurt them. Still, it does hurt them terribly because it goes to the core of a marriage- trust and the sacred emotional space where none other than their spouse belongs has been violated.


----------



## re16

I think there is a checkbox in fonelab that needs to be checked to pickup deleted messages. Did you go through all the settings?


----------



## Robert22205

How's it going Physics? Can you share what is being discussed in therapy? 
I think it would help others in similar situations. "Just Friends" is a common issue.
Thanks.


----------



## The Middleman

Robert22205 said:


> How's it going Physics? Can you share what is being discussed in therapy?
> I think it would help others in similar situations. "Just Friends" is a common issue.
> Thanks.


He’s posting in SI, getting second opinions.


----------



## Chaparral

The Middleman said:


> He’s posting in SI, getting second opinions.


Physic is not doing well at all. He was hoping SI would convince him it wasn’t that bad. His MC is pitiful. 

Over there not one person can believe it was innocent or even close. 

There is something completely strange going on with Physic. As here, he will not acknowledge any suggestion he get the phone records to see if they were regularly talking or how long they would talk.

And no, he is not being handled with kid gloves.


----------



## Tilted 1

Chaparral said:


> There is something completely strange going on with Physic. As here, he will not acknowledge any suggestion he get the phone records to see if they were regularly talking or how long they would talk.
> 
> And no, he is not being handled with kid gloves.


It called proof, and if he finds it then it becomes real. Sorry Physics... I hear the drums in the background, l know you do to know the battle is coming ever so close. Armour up and pickup the sword.


----------



## Music_Man

Chaparral said:


> Physic is not doing well at all. He was hoping SI would convince him it wasn’t that bad. His MC is pitiful.
> 
> 
> 
> Over there not one person can believe it was innocent or even close.
> 
> 
> 
> There is something completely strange going on with Physic. As here, he will not acknowledge any suggestion he get the phone records to see if they were regularly talking or how long they would talk.
> 
> 
> 
> And no, he is not being handled with kid gloves.


And the longer he waits, the more difficult the evidence gathering will be. I believe he is hoping to get some advice that aligns more with his line of thinking- some reassurance if you will. He's not getting it, and reality is starting to set in. 

For me, I'd have to know. I wish I had been a member of TAM and was getting the advice 7-8 years ago that he's getting now.


----------



## re16

Music_Man said:


> And the longer he waits, the more difficult the evidence gathering will be. I believe he is hoping to get some advice that aligns more with his line of thinking- some reassurance if you will. He's not getting it, and reality is starting to set in.
> 
> For me, I'd have to know. I wish I had been a member of TAM and was getting the advice 7-8 years ago that he's getting now.


Agreed, I identify with a lot of the things Physics is saying, because I was in the same boat long ago. I had put my wife on a pedestal since the beginning, was hopeful she was being truthful about an EA, and I had already decided it wasn't that bad. Just looked for ways to believe my own predetermined worst case.

Instead, I should have been suspicious about a much worse case scenario as soon as I realized she was intentionally deceiving me. I was in the camp of there is no way she could do that. And I was wrong, but only figured it all out years later.

It is a tough pill to swallow to take someone off a pedestal and analyze based solely on facts, especially when you don't yet have all the facts.... which is why it is so important to get all the facts that you possibly can.


----------



## mickybill

Music_Man said:


> For me, I'd have to know. I wish I had been a member of TAM and was getting the advice 7-8 years ago that he's getting now.


I knew nothing...I did everything wrong for a couple months then did a few things right.

I think Mr Physic is thinking hard about finding alternative realities where his wife is not in an EA or PA. Sadly I think he may come around to the truth, at least then he can deal with it.


----------



## re16

I honestly hope Physics is right and it wasn't that bad, but I think that is low percentage chance based on the events and texts we know about.


----------



## The Middleman

Chaparral said:


> Physic is not doing well at all. He was hoping SI would convince him it wasn’t that bad. His MC is pitiful.
> 
> Over there not one person can believe it was innocent or even close.
> 
> There is something completely strange going on with Physic. As here, he will not acknowledge any suggestion he get the phone records to see if they were regularly talking or how long they would talk.
> 
> And no, he is not being handled with kid gloves.


The problem with Physics is that he wants to sit and theorize and pontificate on the reasons why his wife would do such things. Yet, he doesn’t want to get his hands dirty taking the necessary actions to assure that his wife is not still in continued contact with the OM. The no contact letter didn’t go out, like he said it would. He did not confront OM, like he said he would. He is also not willing to do the continued digging, on his own, necessary to get closure on this. His wife still doesn’t get that she was, for all intents and purposes, cheating on Physics. It seems like a pretty sad case all the way around.


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## Diana7

I think that he is like a lot of men, he hates conflict or rocking the boat and would rather it all went away. 

I find this so hard to understand because I am the opposite. I am very honest and would always want complete honesty from a partner. If I felt they weren't being honest I would do what I could to find out. I would want to know what was going on so that I could make decisions as to what the next step was. How can you make any decisions if you have no idea what happened?


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## Robert22205

Physics ...are you ok? Feel free to check in, vent, or just chat. You are not alone.


----------



## Physics

Robert22205 said:


> Physics ...are you ok? Feel free to check in, vent, or just chat. You are not alone.


Yes, thanks Robert, I’m doing better. I haven’t been posting much, just reading what other people have written to understand their experiences in hopes of better understanding my own. It’s a long road, a long road indeed.


----------



## Omzig19

Physics said:


> Yes, thanks Robert, I’m doing better. I haven’t been posting much, just reading what other people have written to understand their experiences in hopes of better understanding my own. It’s a long road, a long road indeed.



HI physics,
im new here and havent read all of the posts on your thread but just wanted to say sorry for what youre going thru. i can see how your wife didnt want to "appear" to blow him off esply during both of their difficult times with losing family members. Thus, the texts continued.
I used to have a handful of best friends that were guys before i got married. i always thought having a friend of the opposite gender was possible. however with 2 of those guys something developed. after that i realized its not possible to be great friends with the opposite gender esply when youre married. my husband was very jealous of these "best friends" of mine and ultimately asked me to give them up (reduce frequency of contact or none at all). 
i realized that whatever i was getting out of those guys i should be getting out of my husband. of course having a same gender friend, i can talk about the girly things, but what would i talk about with a guy that i couldnt talk to my husband about? thats just the type of rlshp i prefer with a spouse (HIM being the best friend).

tho im still in touch with some of my high school college male friends, theres a limit to how far one could interact with them....

i personally dont think your wife is hiding anything more. i think she just got caught up and tested the waters. i think she s faithful but human. i do hope tho she learns that having a male friend just doesnt work....something always ignites and texting is usually where it starts...good luck.


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## Tilted 1

Physics said:


> Yes, thanks Robert, I’m doing better. I haven’t been posting much, just reading what other people have written to understand their experiences in hopes of better understanding my own. It’s a long road, a long road indeed.


Physics, I'm sure it hard to believe still and just look at 9years and all the others. Time heals nothing and your mind will get the best of you, unless you rugsweep this and if you do it will return to haunt you as well. But remember this Cheaters lie lie lie and will gaslight you. Knowing and possibly doing this again, after some time has passed. Why? You know she will rationalize the same way. And blame it on you. Don't forget marriage is 50/50 but cheating is 100% on her.


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