# Late night conversation- jealousy



## Annoyed_Hubby

So my wife of 25 years took my kids to a church retreat and I basically learned that my wife “only got three hours sleep” partly a result of a late night personal conversation it sounds like she had a young man who she had earlier described as “tall and good looking“. I mean she told me about the conversation but then later I got angry when I saw he had texted her at 1 am with his name. Her description of the conversation was such that he had offered to pray with our adult daughter who suffered some trauma recently which is I think why they were to correspond via text.

The young man is in his twenties and my wife is late forties. I believe her that their conversation was mostly religious in nature (knowing my wife).

I only got mad after hearing she only got three hours of sleep and seeing the 1 am text and guessing that the conversation could have gone on until possibly 2, 3, or even 4 in the morning- I believe it occurred outside some of the kids cabins/showers.

When I confronted her she made excuses “she couldn’t sleep” and “other people were awake and around” but I find that hard to believe since kids were chaperoned and I’m sure were NOT up and walking around at 1 am. My wife also didn’t know I knew about the 1 am text when she was saying this so I get the feeling she was trying to convince me that this all occurred earlier in the evening. Once I mentioned the 1 am text she then said “oh well that was at the end of our conversation”... sounds to like like she is spinning the truth there.

I guess maybe I’m crazy for being jealous and angry. My wife pointed out that said young man is younger than some our kids (maybe by a year or two tops). She also then started saying she only got three hours sleep because she was in some pain... basically then I just lost my temper because there’s no apology but rather I’m unreasonable and “we were talking about our daughter” and he was “talking about his mom” and “I couldn’t sleep is why I only slept three hours”. I do know that the conversation started when my wife walked out son to the shower house because she didn’t want him going alone.... again, I find a hard time believing that the place is letting a 12 year old shower at midnight even if his mom is there with him.

What do you think?


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## BluesPower

No you are not crazy... At all. 

If you guys are Christian, and you wife engaged in a conversation with a man, what ever age, in the manor that you described, then it is in appropriate, and out of bounds.

It does not matter what they talked about, she is a married woman and it at least has the look of impropriety.

So, your wife is completely and totally out of line and you need to figure out if she is just this ignorant or starting to tread waters that will break up your marriage. 

You have to put a stop to this, and this thinking. This type of thing is how people get on the road to affairs of all kings. 

You are not crazy. 

Others will try to defend her, and you and I both know that there is no defense of these situations. She could have waited, found an actually MALE Pastor to talk to him, or a hundred other things.


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## minimalME

I'm a little confused. What exactly are you upset about?

Your wife is a grown woman, and harrassing her about her bedtime or how much sleep she got makes you sound like her dad.

Are you troubled that she was having a late night, one on one conversation with a man half her age whom she described as attractive?

I'm only going by what you've written, but it comes across like you just want something to be pissed off about, and you seem to have blown this _way_ out of proportion.

You confronted her? She made excuses? She was trying to convince you? She's spinning the truth?

My question would be more along the lines of, why is this your mindset towards your wife? Where has all this emotion come from? Are there other things you're agitated about? Are you annoyed that they all went without you?


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## bobert

So, why haven't you read the texts? It is a huge red flag if the texts were deleted. If that's the case, use a recovery software to get them back.


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## minimalME

Was this a texting conversation? Or an in person conversation that continued later and included texting?

And why is it a red flag to delete texts? I delete texts all the time.

It's one thing to say to a spouse that you think this sort of thing is inappropriate, and you'd prefer it not happen again.

But if she was indeed having a 'religious' conversation, then why should she be expected to gossip and disclose every detail to her husband?



bobert said:


> So, why haven't you read the texts? It is a huge red flag if the texts were deleted. If that's the case, use a recovery software to get them back.


And why were you waiting for an apology?



Annoyed_Hubby said:


> ... basically then I just lost my temper because there’s no apology but rather I’m unreasonable...


I still stand by what I wrote. This seems like a huge overreaction to an isolated incident.


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## bobert

minimalME said:


> And why is it a red flag to delete texts? I delete texts all the time.


It might be normal for you to delete texts. I find that odd because I never delete texts... unless I have something to hide. 

If the OP's wife doesn't usually delete texts but deleted these ones (we still don't know), then that is out of character and a huge red flag.


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## minimalME

I understand, although I think this instant jump to nefarious behavior is disturbing - even if it is out of character for his wife to delete texts.



bobert said:


> If the OP's wife doesn't usually delete texts but deleted these ones (we still don't know), then that is out of character and a huge red flag.


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## Diana7

If she wanted someone to talk to about your daughter then she should have found another woman. If he wanted to talk about his mum, he should have found a guy. At church retreats there are ALWAYS counsellors on hand and also I do wonder why you didnt go with them? 
Having long deep talks with someone of the opposite sex alone late at night in the dark is not a good idea and is asking for trouble.


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## Diana7

bobert said:


> It might be normal for you to delete texts. I find that odd because I never delete texts... unless I have something to hide.
> 
> If the OP's wife doesn't usually delete texts but deleted these ones (we still don't know), then that is out of character and a huge red flag.


I never delete texts either.


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## minimalME

Seriously? You people have every single text that you've ever sent and received on your current phone? 🤨


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## BluesPower

minimalME said:


> I'm a little confused. What exactly are you upset about?
> 
> Your wife is a grown woman, and harrassing her about her bedtime or how much sleep she got makes you sound like her dad.
> 
> Are you troubled that she was having a late night, one on one conversation with a man half her age whom she described as attractive?
> 
> I'm only going by what you've written, but it comes across like you just want something to be pissed off about, and you seem to have blown this _way_ out of proportion.
> 
> You confronted her? She made excuses? She was trying to convince you? She's spinning the truth?
> 
> My question would be more along the lines of, why is this your mindset towards your wife? Where has all this emotion come from? Are there other things you're agitated about? Are you annoyed that they all went without you?


Wow, I am surprised at you? I thought your husband cheated on you. 

Married, Christian people do not hang out with the opposite sex and talk for hours.

It is too easy for something to develop from these types of things. You don't do these things if you are protecting and valuing your marriage. 

Why I was 20 I had sex, great sex with lots of 40 YO women. 

I am stunned….


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## bobert

minimalME said:


> Seriously? You people have every single text that you've ever sent from your current phone? 🤨


Yep. The phone I have right now I got in March 2019 and I have 258 conversations. I very rarely delete anything.


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## Diana7

minimalME said:


> Seriously? You people have every single text that you've ever sent and received on your current phone? 🤨


I maybe delete some about once or twice a year.


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## minimalME

I understand your perspective. I do. And generally speaking, I agree that intimate conversations with the opposite sex are unwise.

But I'm trying to look at the context of this specific situation.

Is this an isolated incident? There are so many questions.

I think expecting someone - anyone - to make perfect decisions in every set of circumstances is unreasonable.

What I'm asking is, why is @Annoyed_Hubby sooo set off by this?

I could be very wrong, but, to me, there has to be more going on than this one conversation.



BluesPower said:


> Married, Christian people do not hang out with the opposite sex and talk for hours.
> 
> It is too easy for something to develop from these types of things. You don't do these things if you are protecting and valuing your marriage.
> 
> Why I was 20 I had sex, great sex with lots of 40 YO women.


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## Diana7

BluesPower said:


> Wow, I am surprised at you? I thought your husband cheated on you.
> 
> Married, Christian people do not hang out with the opposite sex and talk for hours.
> 
> It is too easy for something to develop from these types of things. You don't do these things if you are protecting and valuing your marriage.
> 
> Why I was 20 I had sex, great sex with lots of 40 YO women.
> 
> I am stunned….


Many years ago, the the husband of a lady I know went to Spain to help run a Christian outreach event. They had been married a long time but she stayed home to care for their children. She completely adored him. While there he met a younger woman, was counselling her and got too close, and upon returning to the UK left his wife and children for this woman he had known a week. The family were devastated, no one could believe such a lovely strong Christian would do this, and the ow wasnt a Christian either. He also moved straight in with her as well. He later divorced his wife. 
Yes, it happens. Temptation is everywhere.
We must keep strong boundaries with members of the opposite sex.


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## DownByTheRiver

I delete all texts as soon as I've read them. It's organization and not liking things piling up.

I will just say it's unlikely this very young man is into your wife.


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## minimalME

Thank you! A normal person. 😅



DownByTheRiver said:


> I delete all texts as soon as I've read them. It's organization and not liking things piling up.


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## Annoyed_Hubby

There was only a single text from the guy with his name that I found when looking for directions to pick up when my wife was still asleep.

I suppose my annoyance is:


she’s having a late night personal conversation (who knows how late) with a man while I’m home with kids
I believe she insinuated this conversation happened while she waited for my son in the shower (the fact that he texted her at the conclusion means she was talking until at least 1am). So, given my son is 12 I think the camp would have had him in bed way before 1 am)
I suppose I’m suspicious the conversation went on way past 1 am but at least to 1am and started while my son was showering (I’d guess 11 pm was the start)
I don’t know the young man as he was from out of town and attending
my wife is good at warning our kids about the dangers of being alone with strangers but she does the same and even into the night?
basically I deduce that she was up way later than I thought when later last evening she said she was tired because she only had three hours of sleep.
I’m a little pissed she drove two hours home the next day while only getting three hours sleep.
I sensed she was spinning the story a bit and I think was surprised when I said I saw his text at 1 am. She didn’t delete it or any texts to my knowledge (she probably doesn’t know how)
her and I talked at 11 pm by phone that night and I had understood that she was in her cabin with other ladies for the night (I only wanted to feel like she was safe and settled for the night) since most of the people though religious- I don’t personally know.

Anyway, maybe I’m overreacting... pretty sure she’d be pissed if I were talking to a young lady alone at those hours...


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## BluesPower

minimalME said:


> I understand your perspective. I do. And generally speaking, I agree that intimate conversations with the opposite sex are unwise.
> 
> But I'm trying to look at the context of this specific situation.
> 
> Is this an isolated incident? There are so many questions.
> 
> I think expecting someone - anyone - to make perfect decisions in every set of circumstances is unreasonable.
> 
> What I'm asking is, why is @Annoyed_Hubby sooo set off by this?
> 
> I could be very wrong, but, to me, there has to be more going on than this one conversation.


Wow I am still surprised at you... 

Married people, especially married people, do not have conversations with the opposite sex late into the night, until the morning, and text AFTERWARDS, at all.'

It is not supposed to happen. It des not matter if this is an isolated incident... 

Would it mattered if the was the first time that his wife banged another man, whatever age, and he should not be upset about it. 

What possible justification can any one have for this...


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## SunCMars

It is often something, even when it is nothing.

Especially, when something is always sought.
Especially, when one is imaginative, and a budding detective.

If there is a snotty hanky, it soon becomes a hanky-panky sleeping bag.

Doubt and resentment can soon make, balloon out, a divorce.

I actually agree with _both sides_ of this incident.
Reasonable becomes the more, once more information is revealed.

More data points, please!


_Gwendolyn-_


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## BluesPower

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> There was only a single text from the guy with his name that I found when looking for directions to pick up when my wife was still asleep.
> 
> I suppose my annoyance is:
> 
> 
> she’s having a late night personal conversation (who knows how late) with a man while I’m home with kids
> I believe she insinuated this conversation happened while she waited for my son in the shower (the fact that he texted her at the conclusion means she was talking until at least 1am). So, given my son is 12 I think the camp would have had him in bed way before 1 am)
> I suppose I’m suspicious the conversation went on way past 1 am but at least to 1am and started while my son was showering (I’d guess 11 pm was the start)
> I don’t know the young man as he was from out of town and attending
> my wife is good at warning our kids about the dangers of being alone with strangers but she does the same and even into the night?
> basically I deduce that she was up way later than I thought when later last evening she said she was tired because she only had three hours of sleep.
> I’m a little pissed she drove two hours home the next day while only getting three hours sleep.
> I sensed she was spinning the story a bit and I think was surprised when I said I saw his text at 1 am. She didn’t delete it or any texts to my knowledge (she probably doesn’t know how)
> her and I talked at 11 pm by phone that night and I had understood that she was in her cabin with other ladies for the night (I only wanted to feel like she was safe and settled for the night) since most of the people though religious- I don’t personally know.
> Anyway, maybe I’m overreacting... pretty sure she’d be pissed if I were talking to a young lady alone at those hours...


Brother you have every right to be pissed about this. 

You need to stop being weak about this. This situation is not cool. It is, always the first step to an affair. 

Most of them begin like this. And it does not have to be the same guy, it is about boundaries and breaking them. 

You are not over reacting. Let this go at the peril of your marriage


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## minimalME

Yes, I can tell. Your reactions to my responses are very dramatic.



BluesPower said:


> Wow I am still surprised at you...


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## SunCMars

Both men and women learn to resent, maybe hate, a nagging, cranky spouse.

A COO of a spouse. 

Or, the Controller spouse.
And, add to that, one who is jealous, for not a good reason, uh, no thanks.


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## BluesPower

minimalME said:


> Yes, I can tell. You're reactions to my responses are very dramatic.


I am just surprised that you would say the stuff you are saying about this deal. 

I myself, try to be the same for male and female posters. 

If OP was male, I would say exactly the same thing. 

He would have no business to sit out talking alone with a female, and his wife would be right to be upset. 

Think what you will...


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## SunCMars

BluesPower said:


> It is not supposed to happen. It does not matter if this is an isolated incident...
> 
> Would it mattered if this was the first time that his wife banged another man, whatever age, and he should not be upset about it.
> 
> What possible justification can any one have for this...


 Ah yes, the typical TAM response. 

I agree, this _tall and young and handsome man _is not the sort of person a married lady should ministry with.

We see the signs, over and over, on the mark, and very few of them ended up wrong-headed.

At this point it is speculation and wait and see. 
Being cautious with those you love is good.

A watchful eye should be on the agenda.

Be civil.


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## StarFires

SunCMars said:


> Ah yes, the typical TAM response.
> 
> I agree, this _tall and young and handsome man _is not the sort of person a married lady should ministry with.
> 
> We see the signs, over and over, on the mark, and very few of them ended up wrong-headed.
> 
> At this point it is speculation and wait and see.
> Being cautious with those you love is good.
> 
> A watchful eye should be on the agenda.
> 
> Be civil.



And that's the one and only thing that was required in this situation, instead of somebody so ridiculously acting like, as you accurately put it, the chief operating officer of their spouse.


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## Annoyed_Hubby

For the record I didn’t ask about her bedtime. She was making it a point of having me put kids to bed the next night because she had “three hours sleep”. I was thinking “why was she up all night“? And then the next morning I see a text from the mysterious young man who kept my wife up all night in “ministry”.

I’m even more disgusted today driving back with another lady who was up ALL night with these young male testimony-givers (at least in her case she was talking to them in a group setting). I get the feeling these guys are like rock stars to the holy roller women. This lady hasn’t wanted to say two words during the drive with me (I’m an unholy bastard apparently despite that I’m the one spending my day as chauffeur).


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## minimalME

@Annoyed_Hubby are you a Christian? Just curious.


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## StarFires

And he gets even worse. Yikes.


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## SunCMars

What a few seem to forget is that this is TAM.
Bad doo-doo happens here!


Annoyed_Hubby said:


> For the record I didn’t ask about her bedtime. She was making it a point of having me put kids to bed the next night because she had “three hours sleep”. I was thinking “why was she up all night“? And then the next morning I see a text from the mysterious young man who kept my wife up all night in “ministry”.
> 
> I’m even more disgusted today driving back with another lady who was up ALL night with these young male testimony-givers (at least in her case she was talking to them in a group setting). I get the feeling these guys are like rock stars to the holy roller women. This lady hasn’t wanted to say two words during the drive with me (I’m an unholy bastard apparently despite that I’m the one spending my day as chauffeur).


Laugh it off.

Accept this as good faith.

For you it is ridiculous, for them it is fulfilling and confirming of their faith.

It is a big world. 
There are stranger things. 

Some woman sit around half the day watching bed-hopping soap opera's. 
Hmm.

At least your wife's group are not plotting jihad on their neighbors!

Live life to its fullest. 

Allow others the same courtesy.


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## SunCMars

Once bitter, that bitter lasts for months, maybe years, a lifetime.
It seeps into the bones, the bones give it up, at last to the soil.

I suspect this is not about your wife, but about you and your disillusionment with life and people.


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## SunCMars

Just a thought....

Could it be your wife was grooming, match-making this young man or another for your daughter, or for another young lady? Older ladies are ancient pros at this.

_Lilith-_


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## Annoyed_Hubby

So most ladies here say apologize to her and move on?

I’m probably spewing my anger as I furiously type on my phone during breaks in the drive with poor connectivity. Cooling down... what can I say, testosterone’s a *****.

My wife has given me no reason not to trust her.. I’d better just swallow my anger and play nice... but perhaps keep a watchful eye.

I’m Christian, but a poor one I’m sure.


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## Blondilocks

Well, I can't make heads or tails of the tale. She took the kids to a church retreat and had a late night convo 'in ministry' with a young man while he was home with the kids?

Think we need a map and a timeline.


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## SunCMars

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> So most ladies here say apologize to her and move on?
> 
> I’m probably spewing my anger as I furiously type on my phone during breaks in the drive with poor connectivity. Cooling down... what can I say, testosterone’s a ***.
> 
> My wife has given me no reason not to trust her.. I’d better just swallow my anger and play nice... but perhaps keep a watchful eye.
> 
> *I’m Christian, but a poor one I’m sure.*


Me too!


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## Enigma32

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> My wife has given me no reason not to trust her.. I’d better just swallow my anger and play nice... but perhaps keep a watchful eye.


Your wife has definitely given you reasons not to trust her or you wouldn't be here. Not only is she giving her number out to a random dude but she stays up all night chatting with him.


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## Annoyed_Hubby

So I guess I’ll apologize, keep a watchful eye, and chat up any lady I so desire... especially until late at night and if they share any of my interests. Is that how this is supposed to work? Guess maybe I’ve been too old fashioned...


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## ABHale

Let’s see if I have this right.

Your wife tells you goodnight at 11pm saying she is in for the night.

Then she takes your son to the shower house afterwards. Ok, this is plausible.

Then while your 12 year old is showering, she talks with a twenty something for 2 to 3 hours. Did your son really take a shower for 2-3 hours?

She ends her conversation with the twenty something around 1am and heads back to where she is sleeping.

She received a text from the twenty something at 1am.

******** story! Where was your son during all of this? He didn’t stay in the shower for all that time.

For those that say nothing happened because of the age difference, right. There is a thread on another web site where the 40 something wife hooked up with her 20 something intern on a business trip.

I am not saying your wife cheated but her story is ********.


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## StarFires

Still so very obvious. The fakeness fooled nobody.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> There was only a single text from the guy with his name that I found when looking for directions to pick up when my wife was still asleep.
> 
> I suppose my annoyance is:
> 
> 
> she’s having a late night personal conversation (who knows how late) with a man while I’m home with kids
> I believe she insinuated this conversation happened while she waited for my son in the shower (the fact that he texted her at the conclusion means she was talking until at least 1am). So, given my son is 12 I think the camp would have had him in bed way before 1 am)
> I suppose I’m suspicious the conversation went on way past 1 am but at least to 1am and started while my son was showering (I’d guess 11 pm was the start)
> I don’t know the young man as he was from out of town and attending
> my wife is good at warning our kids about the dangers of being alone with strangers but she does the same and even into the night?
> basically I deduce that she was up way later than I thought when later last evening she said she was tired because she only had three hours of sleep.
> I’m a little pissed she drove two hours home the next day while only getting three hours sleep.
> I sensed she was spinning the story a bit and I think was surprised when I said I saw his text at 1 am. She didn’t delete it or any texts to my knowledge (she probably doesn’t know how)
> her and I talked at 11 pm by phone that night and I had understood that she was in her cabin with other ladies for the night (I only wanted to feel like she was safe and settled for the night) since most of the people though religious- I don’t personally know.
> Anyway, maybe I’m overreacting... pretty sure she’d be pissed if I were talking to a young lady alone at those hours...


Trust your gut. TSAR...that **** ain’t right!


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## sokillme

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> So my wife of 25 years took my kids to a church retreat and I basically learned that my wife “only got three hours sleep” partly a result of a late night personal conversation it sounds like she had a young man who she had earlier described as “tall and good looking“. I mean she told me about the conversation but then later I got angry when I saw he had texted her at 1 am with his name. Her description of the conversation was such that he had offered to pray with our adult daughter who suffered some trauma recently which is I think why they were to correspond via text.
> 
> The young man is in his twenties and my wife is late forties. I believe her that their conversation was mostly religious in nature (knowing my wife).
> 
> I only got mad after hearing she only got three hours of sleep and seeing the 1 am text and guessing that the conversation could have gone on until possibly 2, 3, or even 4 in the morning- I believe it occurred outside some of the kids cabins/showers.
> 
> When I confronted her she made excuses “she couldn’t sleep” and “other people were awake and around” but I find that hard to believe since kids were chaperoned and I’m sure were NOT up and walking around at 1 am. My wife also didn’t know I knew about the 1 am text when she was saying this so I get the feeling she was trying to convince me that this all occurred earlier in the evening. Once I mentioned the 1 am text she then said “oh well that was at the end of our conversation”... sounds to like like she is spinning the truth there.
> 
> I guess maybe I’m crazy for being jealous and angry. My wife pointed out that said young man is younger than some our kids (maybe by a year or two tops). She also then started saying she only got three hours sleep because she was in some pain... basically then I just lost my temper because there’s no apology but rather I’m unreasonable and “we were talking about our daughter” and he was “talking about his mom” and “I couldn’t sleep is why I only slept three hours”. I do know that the conversation started when my wife walked out son to the shower house because she didn’t want him going alone.... again, I find a hard time believing that the place is letting a 12 year old shower at midnight even if his mom is there with him.
> 
> What do you think?


Totally inappropriate.

Nip it in the bud.


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## sokillme

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> For the record I didn’t ask about her bedtime. She was making it a point of having me put kids to bed the next night because she had “three hours sleep”. I was thinking “why was she up all night“? And then the next morning I see a text from the mysterious young man who kept my wife up all night in “ministry”.
> 
> I’m even more disgusted today driving back with another lady who was up ALL night with these young male testimony-givers (at least in her case she was talking to them in a group setting). I get the feeling these guys are like rock stars to the holy roller women. This lady hasn’t wanted to say two words during the drive with me (I’m an unholy bastard apparently despite that I’m the one spending my day as chauffeur).


Go the the next event, bring some guy friends.


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## Beach123

Any info she gave to someone else that wasn’t HER info (meaning about herself) is gossip. Talking to someone else about your daughter’s experience is a betrayal - and not Christian behavior.

it wasn’t for your wife to tell! It is ONLY info for your daughter to tell.

your wife betrayed her own daughter.

with that said - it’s also possible she betrayed you as well.


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## aine

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> So I guess I’ll apologize, keep a watchful eye, and chat up any lady I so desire... especially until late at night and if they share any of my interests. Is that how this is supposed to work? Guess maybe I’ve been too old fashioned...


It is difficult to know based on what you have told us here, alot of which is 'guesswork,' on your behalf. You have worked yourself (and others) into an apparent 'fact based' account of what happened.
Sounds unorthodox people of opposite sexes sitting up late at night but if they are praying it is possible. Though the guy is young enough to be her son?
Where there others there, were your kids around? If there has been no communication since then what is the issue really?
I wonder are you usually very suspicious of your wife, has she given you cause for concern in the past?

You are also "guessing" alot about the timeline, some here are assuming it is fact

_*guessing* that the conversation could have gone on until possibly 2, 3, or even 4 in the morning- I believe it occurred outside some of the kids cabins/showers. _*What do you know as fact?*

Am I right in saying you are drawing conclusions based on a 1 am text? They may have parted company after the kids shower, she may have gone back to her room and could not sleep for (oh I don't know, a number of reasons e.g. the conversation she had about your daughter, the uncomfortable bed, new environment, etc). 
You made yourself sound so altruistic in that you checked to make sure she was settled or you checked cause you are checking up on her? Why? Be honest.
You *confront* her based on rather flimsy evidence too. Do you normally do this? If so, then maybe she has a good reason not to be forthcoming with times, etc. Something else is off here.
If my husband were to interrogate and accuse me like this when i haven't done anything wrong, i would be pissed off. Why is there a lack of trust here? There is something you are not telling us.


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## aine

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> There was only a single text from the guy with his name that I found when looking for directions to pick up when my wife was still asleep.
> 
> I suppose my annoyance is:
> 
> 
> she’s having a late night personal conversation (who knows how late) with a man while I’m home with kids
> YOu agreed for her to go, so now she cannot talk to people of the opposite sex at a church camp?
> I believe she insinuated this conversation happened while she waited for my son in the shower (the fact that he texted her at the conclusion means she was talking until at least 1am). So, given my son is 12 I think the camp would have had him in bed way before 1 am) YOu believe? Either she did or she didn't. It is very unusual or someone to text immediately after a conversation. That is done some time after.
> I suppose I’m suspicious the conversation went on way past 1 am but at least to 1am and started while my son was showering (I’d guess 11 pm was the start) What evidence do you have? The text? That is not evidence. The conversation could have finished much earlier and the guy then texted the info when he had time. You are jumping to conclusions here.
> I don’t know the young man as he was from out of town and attending Ok
> my wife is good at warning our kids about the dangers of being alone with strangers but she does the same and even into the night? Evidence or again your assumptions? They are at a church camp, not like she is in Vegas or out with her work colleagues on the town.
> basically I deduce that she was up way later than I thought when later last evening she said she was tired because she only had three hours of sleep. Again, you deduce, your suppositions, your guessing, see what I mean here? As I said in another post, at this age sometimes it is difficult to sleep if in a new environment, new bed, maybe she was mulling over your daughter's issue. Again, it is unlikely if she was getting hot and heavy she would tell you she had little sleep.
> I’m a little pissed she drove two hours home the next day while only getting three hours sleep. OK fair enough
> I sensed she was spinning the story a bit and I think was surprised when I said I saw his text at 1 am. She didn’t delete it or any texts to my knowledge (she probably doesn’t know how) What exactly made you feel she was spinning the story, the narrative you had already concocted in your head? or some evidence in what she said. Gut is all important for sure but I think you do not have the timeline and are guessing only
> her and I talked at 11 pm by phone that night and I had understood that she was in her cabin with other ladies for the night (I only wanted to feel like she was safe and settled for the night) since most of the people though religious- I don’t personally know.  You understood or assumed? You don't know the people so you assume she will cheat?
> Anyway, maybe I’m overreacting... pretty sure she’d be pissed if I were talking to a young lady alone at those hours...


 What about her value system? Has she ever given you cause to be concerned? Did the 'tall and good looking' do it and send you on the roller coaster of suspicion? I am not buying this at all.

Most here have jumped on 'get her, she is up to something' I believe its is innocent and your have worked yourself into a frenzy with not enough factual evidence.


----------



## Annoyed_Hubby

So when we were both home I went up and halfheartedly apologized (I’m a bad liar and I was still angry). She got angry and said basically how I don’t trust her and how I am always upset over nothing and so I said name one time and she named one time ten years ago when I got angry when she was having a fairly long conversation in front of me with an interesting store clerk. Then I mentioned that she was livid when I had a ten minute chat with a young, pretty door to door saleswoman (a year or two ago ) that was so friendly I couldn’t get away from her... anyway, it’s funny she can be angry about something in the daylight when she’s nearby but then it’s out of line for me to be angry about a late night conversation when I’m not even in the same state. I’ll never know how long it lasted or really how many people were around... I sense if I ask for more details she’ll hit the roof... not worth it.

Well, I can’t win regardless... jealousy is a fool’s errand. Still mad but guess I’ll just keep it to myself.

thanks for the comments.


----------



## ABHale

What you are experiencing is not jealousy, it is an standard your wife holds against you and doesn’t hold herself to.


----------



## ABHale

If you do not work this out with your wife, it will act as a poison in your marriage and destroy it.


----------



## ConanHub

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> There was only a single text from the guy with his name that I found when looking for directions to pick up when my wife was still asleep.
> 
> I suppose my annoyance is:
> 
> 
> she’s having a late night personal conversation (who knows how late) with a man while I’m home with kids
> I believe she insinuated this conversation happened while she waited for my son in the shower (the fact that he texted her at the conclusion means she was talking until at least 1am). So, given my son is 12 I think the camp would have had him in bed way before 1 am)
> I suppose I’m suspicious the conversation went on way past 1 am but at least to 1am and started while my son was showering (I’d guess 11 pm was the start)
> I don’t know the young man as he was from out of town and attending
> my wife is good at warning our kids about the dangers of being alone with strangers but she does the same and even into the night?
> basically I deduce that she was up way later than I thought when later last evening she said she was tired because she only had three hours of sleep.
> I’m a little pissed she drove two hours home the next day while only getting three hours sleep.
> I sensed she was spinning the story a bit and I think was surprised when I said I saw his text at 1 am. She didn’t delete it or any texts to my knowledge (she probably doesn’t know how)
> her and I talked at 11 pm by phone that night and I had understood that she was in her cabin with other ladies for the night (I only wanted to feel like she was safe and settled for the night) since most of the people though religious- I don’t personally know.
> Anyway, maybe I’m overreacting... pretty sure she’d be pissed if I were talking to a young lady alone at those hours...


Call her out on this behavior and her absolute lack of being apologetic for it.

Tell her she better get honest radically with you immediately or this is going to damage your marriage more than it already has.


----------



## ABHale

Things for you to do for you!!!

Eat right

If you are not working out, start doing so. This is a great way to release the anger you are feeling.

Do not bottle your feelings up. This is the worst thing you can do. 

Find a hobby to do, with and without your kids. No wife involvement.

Start seeing your friends a 1-2 times a week.


----------



## Annoyed_Hubby

Starfire made me feel like a jerk (which I am) so I apologized again at bedtime and a third time this morning. My wife did say a quick “love you” in response to mine but really didn’t respond to my apologies. I’m picking up some roses here in a bit (she loves them). I guess I’m the ultimate fool but she’s super adamant that they weren’t alone and kids were showering clear to 1 am and said she had no intention to stay in at 11 pm when we talked because kids had a dance type thing at midnight. I’m sure this is confusing to the story here but may make sense to those who’ve intently read my posts.

I strength train four days per week and have for years so I’m actually more ripped than when we married, for what it’s worth.

My only friends are really only other couples... I don’t really have any men as friends except those that we get together with our families. I’ll think about that and maybe try to get to know some guys at work better.

Thanks... let me have it..


----------



## C.C. says ...

I don’t think what she did was appropriate. It just looks bad. She should’ve been more considerate of your feelings. Don’t fall all over yourself apologizing. Most people just take advantage of a heartfelt apology anyway and ride it till the wheels fall off when they were the ones that were _wrong_ in the first place. Doesn’t your apology now give her the go ahead to ‘counsel’ young men in the middle of the night while you’re sitting around wondering where she’s at? I’ve ‘counseled’ a few younger men in the middle of the night myself. I know how this works.  

Don’t underestimate that taboo thing, yo. Kicks it up a few notches ya know what I’m sayin?


----------



## ConanHub

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> So when we were both home I went up and halfheartedly apologized (I’m a bad liar and I was still angry). She got angry and said basically how I don’t trust her and how I am always upset over nothing and so I said name one time and she named one time ten years ago when I got angry when she was having a fairly long conversation in front of me with an interesting store clerk. Then I mentioned that she was livid when I had a ten minute chat with a young, pretty door to door saleswoman (a year or two ago ) that was so friendly I couldn’t get away from her... anyway, it’s funny she can be angry about something in the daylight when she’s nearby but then it’s out of line for me to be angry about a late night conversation when I’m not even in the same state. I’ll never know how long it lasted or really how many people were around... I sense if I ask for more details she’ll hit the roof... not worth it.
> 
> Well, I can’t win regardless... jealousy is a fool’s errand. Still mad but guess I’ll just keep it to myself.
> 
> thanks for the comments.


Kind of a one sided relationship you have going on there.

Your wife is out of line for a number of reasons.


----------



## ConanHub

I'm out. You already started grovelling.

Good gravy!


----------



## ABHale

You really need to read No More Mr Nice Guy.

Your wife is out of line.

You buying roses show you as weak. She is the one that should be making up with you.

What in the world do you actually get from the relationship? I understand that you love your kids. What does your wife do for you to show her love for you?

So she really with held information that would shed some light on what went on that night. Funny how that worked out in her favor.

Have you talked to your son about how he like the dance that night? I have never been to a dance at a Christian retreat. Social functions yes, never a dance.

Maybe I am projecting but I don’t believe your wife. Why not tell the whole story when she could have. She would have saved a lot of misunderstanding if her story is true.


----------



## sokillme

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> So when we were both home I went up and halfheartedly apologized (I’m a bad liar and I was still angry). She got angry and said basically how I don’t trust her and how I am always upset over nothing and so I said name one time and she named one time ten years ago when I got angry when she was having a fairly long conversation in front of me with an interesting store clerk. Then I mentioned that she was livid when I had a ten minute chat with a young, pretty door to door saleswoman (a year or two ago ) that was so friendly I couldn’t get away from her... anyway, it’s funny she can be angry about something in the daylight when she’s nearby but then it’s out of line for me to be angry about a late night conversation when I’m not even in the same state. I’ll never know how long it lasted or really how many people were around... I sense if I ask for more details she’ll hit the roof... not worth it.
> 
> Well, I can’t win regardless... jealousy is a fool’s errand. Still mad but guess I’ll just keep it to myself.
> 
> thanks for the comments.


Anger is a good way to control someone when you don't want to deal with your own ********.

A married women having late night conversations (even if it's prayer) then texting with a young single guy is inappropriate. Period. Ask her what her pastor would think about it? Most churches have women's and men's studies just for this reason.

I think your wife is full of crap. If it was me I would unemotionally tell her to cut the crap. She knows very well it's inappropriate and she would feel the same way if you did it. Don't use God as an excuse. If she give you a hard time don't get mad, get strong, tell her, look she is your wife, damn right you are jealous, she is your wife and the most important person in your life and she should be happy after years of marriage you still care. Don't be emotional about it but don't back down. Be hard. I wouldn't even argue about it I would say it then I would get in my car and go see a movie or something. I wouldn't answer my phone for the day. Then I would refuse to talk about it again. I would just present it like here are the facts, this is who you married, cut the crap (and you know it's crap) and lets move on. She might be pissed but she will respect that. And probably be very turned on.

Oh and you are aware that she is full of crap.


----------



## bobert

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> she’s super adamant that they weren’t alone and kids were showering clear to 1 am and said she had no intention to stay in at 11 pm when we talked because kids had a dance type thing at midnight. I’m sure this is confusing to the story here but may make sense to those who’ve intently read my posts.


So now she's changing the story? Earlier you said you understood she was settled in her cabin for the night at 11PM. How exactly can "the kids are having a midnight dance" be mistaken for "I'm setting into my cabin for the night with the other ladies"? 

Have you talked to your kids about the trip? Asked them how the dance went, etc. to verify facts that way.


----------



## bobert

And seriously, what Catholic/Christian camp has a dance at midnight? That seems odd.


----------



## MattMatt

Diana7 said:


> If she wanted someone to talk to about your daughter then she should have found another woman. If he wanted to talk about his mum, he should have found a guy. At church retreats there are ALWAYS counsellors on hand and also I do wonder why you didnt go with them?
> Having long deep talks with someone of the opposite sex alone late at night in the dark is not a good idea and is asking for trouble.


I agree with Diana. Under these circumstances there is no way that your wife should have done what she did. And as a member of the Ministry your wife would have known this, so she knowingly broke the Ministry rules. And driving whilst tired is as bad as drunk driving. Some people think it is worse.

@Annoyed_Hubby share this story with your wife:- Hart guilty of Selby train crash deaths


----------



## Beach123

May I ask why YOU apologized when it’s your wife that caused the problem?


----------



## StarFires

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> Starfire made me feel like a jerk (which I am) so I apologized again at bedtime and a third time this morning. My wife did say a quick “love you” in response to mine but really didn’t respond to my apologies. I’m picking up some roses here in a bit (she loves them). I guess I’m the ultimate fool but she’s super adamant that they weren’t alone and kids were showering clear to 1 am and said she had no intention to stay in at 11 pm when we talked because kids had a dance type thing at midnight. I’m sure this is confusing to the story here but may make sense to those who’ve intently read my posts.
> 
> I strength train four days per week and have for years so I’m actually more ripped than when we married, for what it’s worth.
> 
> My only friends are really only other couples... I don’t really have any men as friends except those that we get together with our families. I’ll think about that and maybe try to get to know some guys at work better.
> 
> Thanks... let me have it..


Well GOOD! Because you sure were acting like a jerk. It was clear you were fabricating much of your wife's encounter in your head, trying to piece things together and really just guessing to catch her in a lie. You got angrier with each accusation and each imagined circumstance you dreamed up. You were stoking your own fire and getting angrier by the moment both toward her and here in your forums posts. And you lost your temper at her. As MinimalMe stated, it was a huge overreaction. People were making you angrier, so you started posting like schizophrenia LOL - angry, then calmed down, then angry again. You were out of control. It was all so ridiculous when, being a one-time incident AND admitting that your wife has never given you pause, the only thing required was that you keep your eyes and ears open to see if anything developed. I know and advocate that no one should be implicitly trusted, so keep an eye on her texts, calls, whereabouts, and social media activity. And, since you felt disrespected, then you should bring it to her attention that she created the appearance of impropriety even though other people were around. Ask her not do that again because you felt disrespected.

For the record, I didn't condone your wife's behavior. But I didn't even go there because I was focused on yours, which was equally inappropriate because she's not your child, which is actually much worse because you were continually escalating for no reason except your own imagination running away from you. 

But yes, she was wrong to sit there talking to any man alone for so long at that late hour, no matter his age because people will think what they want, and that is a reflection on her and on you as her husband. Years ago, a friend of mine and I decided to volunteer in the community and picked a homeless shelter. They placed in her with one of the program directors because she liked office work and placed me in food services because I like cooking. One of the rules for the residents of the facility was that they couldn't develop any romantic relationships with each other. So, if a man and woman seemed to be spending too much time together for a number of times, they would have to leave the facility. But not even that shelter would take any action from just one incident. Any one time just let them know they had to watch those two particular people for any more signs of a developing relationship. My friend and I scheduled to volunteer once or twice a week until I moved out of state, but I would go on my scheduled days and sometimes arrive to find people that I had previously enjoyed working with were no longer there because they were made to leave for breaking that rule. Of course I know the unwritten rules of marriage and other romantic relationships, so I know that your wife broke that rule, and that is not okay. It's just that you weren't handling it very well. I also know the signs of abuse, and you were leaning heavily on that border.

I'm really glad you apologized to her although you kind of went overboard - wink wink. Flowers will be a very nice touch, but don't be surprised if she's still reeling from your behavior and needs time to heal and recover. You were aggressive, which is threatening all by itself, and throwing accusations all over the place with your 50 questions. She disrespected you, but you were disrespectful too. The difference is that she wasn't frightening. You were, and that's not okay either.


----------



## C.C. says ...

@Annoyed_Hubby any updates?


----------



## Yeswecan

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> There was only a single text from the guy with his name that I found when looking for directions to pick up when my wife was still asleep.
> 
> I suppose my annoyance is:
> 
> 
> she’s having a late night personal conversation (who knows how late) with a man while I’m home with kids
> I believe she insinuated this conversation happened while she waited for my son in the shower (the fact that he texted her at the conclusion means she was talking until at least 1am). So, given my son is 12 I think the camp would have had him in bed way before 1 am)
> I suppose I’m suspicious the conversation went on way past 1 am but at least to 1am and started while my son was showering (I’d guess 11 pm was the start)
> I don’t know the young man as he was from out of town and attending
> my wife is good at warning our kids about the dangers of being alone with strangers but she does the same and even into the night?
> basically I deduce that she was up way later than I thought when later last evening she said she was tired because she only had three hours of sleep.
> I’m a little pissed she drove two hours home the next day while only getting three hours sleep.
> I sensed she was spinning the story a bit and I think was surprised when I said I saw his text at 1 am. She didn’t delete it or any texts to my knowledge (she probably doesn’t know how)
> her and I talked at 11 pm by phone that night and I had understood that she was in her cabin with other ladies for the night (I only wanted to feel like she was safe and settled for the night) since most of the people though religious- I don’t personally know.
> Anyway, maybe I’m overreacting... pretty sure she’d be pissed if I were talking to a young lady alone at those hours...



The real question here is...why did your W give the person her cell number? Of what purpose would it serve?


----------



## LisaDiane

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> For the record I didn’t ask about her bedtime. She was making it a point of having me put kids to bed the next night because she had “three hours sleep”. I was thinking “why was she up all night“? And then the next morning I see a text from the mysterious young man who kept my wife up all night in “ministry”.
> 
> I’m even more disgusted today driving back with another lady who was up ALL night with these young male testimony-givers (at least in her case she was talking to them in a group setting). I get the feeling these guys are like rock stars to the holy roller women. This lady hasn’t wanted to say two words during the drive with me (I’m an unholy bastard apparently despite that I’m the one spending my day as chauffeur).


So you are driving ALONE with another woman...and I don't care if there are kids in the back of the van, that never stopped anyone from flirting or making suggestive comments or being inappropriate. But I want to point out that YOU are in a van alone for how long with another woman who isn't your wife...?? And maybe if you "trickle out" any details about the drive or anything that was said (because to you it's unimportant), your wife would be in the right to get extremely suspicious and jealous of what she doesn't know, because you can't be trusted, because you are with another woman, right?? Forget any common sense, all that matters is that you are each of the opposite sex and together alone! Would that be a reasonable reaction from your wife?

Also, maybe the woman riding with you hasn't wanted to say two words to you because she's trying to avoid crossing any lines with you, or appearing to cross any lines - because "lines" by their very nature are defined differently by each individual and couple, and HER husband tends to be jealous. So maybe for HER, any friendly conversation shouldn't be allowed unless her husband is present. 

I am NOT saying you are wrong and should apologize...I am NOT saying your wife deserves the benefit of the doubt. But you haven't given us enough information about the situation and your relationship for anyone to make a real educated guess about what was going on. 

Since the woman you rode back with was also talking to young men to counsel, it gives the impression that what your wife did could be expected and typical...so shouldn't be a bid deal. If it was, why didn't you set those boundaries with her before she went...??

What your wife did CAN and HAS lead to marriage-ending consequences for other couples...it's also lead to NOTHING for others. Only YOU know what is important in your own marriage with your own spouse. If SHE wouldn't like you doing that, she shouldn't be doing that either. But she needs to KNOW where your boundaries are (and you should know hers), and then you can negotiate from that point.
No matter what happened, it sounds like you guys might have some communication issues that you should work on.

Whatever happened, I hope it all works out for you!!!


----------



## BluesPower

LisaDiane said:


> So you are driving ALONE with another woman...and I don't care if there are kids in the back of the van, that never stopped anyone from flirting or making suggestive comments or being inappropriate. But I want to point out that YOU are in a van alone for how long with another woman who isn't your wife...?? And maybe if you "trickle out" any details about the drive or anything that was said (because to you it's unimportant), your wife would be in the right to get extremely suspicious and jealous of what she doesn't know, because you can't be trusted, because you are with another woman, right?? Forget any common sense, all that matters is that you are each of the opposite sex and together alone! Would that be a reasonable reaction from your wife?
> 
> Also, maybe the woman riding with you hasn't wanted to say two words to you because she's trying to avoid crossing any lines with you, or appearing to cross any lines - because "lines" by their very nature are defined differently by each individual and couple, and HER husband tends to be jealous. So maybe for HER, any friendly conversation shouldn't be allowed unless her husband is present.
> 
> I am NOT saying you are wrong and should apologize...I am NOT saying your wife deserves the benefit of the doubt. But you haven't given us enough information about the situation and your relationship for anyone to make a real educated guess about what was going on.
> 
> Since the woman you rode back with was also talking to young men to counsel, it gives the impression that what your wife did could be expected and typical...so shouldn't be a bid deal. If it was, why didn't you set those boundaries with her before she went...??
> 
> What your wife did CAN and HAS lead to marriage-ending consequences for other couples...it's also lead to NOTHING for others. Only YOU know what is important in your own marriage with your own spouse. If SHE wouldn't like you doing that, she shouldn't be doing that either. But she needs to KNOW where your boundaries are (and you should know hers), and then you can negotiate from that point.
> No matter what happened, it sounds like you guys might have some communication issues that you should work on.
> 
> Whatever happened, I hope it all works out for you!!!


You know that this is different. 

Kids in the car matters, it is silly to suggest other wise is just silly. 

Why in the world are people taking up for his wife. Christian Married women, or men for that matter, should not, and lots do not, do what his wife did. 

It was inappropriate in just about every way it could be, and the is guessing the they did not have sex, which they probably did not, and hopefully will not.

If you think that in the context of any form of Christian Ministry that this is OK you just don't know what you are talking about. The crux is to SET AN EXAMPLE for others, to avoid the APPEARANCE of any form of impropriety.

This is just really not that hard to understand...


----------



## minimalME

@BluesPower are you a Christian? Did I miss that somewhere?


----------



## LisaDiane

BluesPower said:


> You know that this is different.
> 
> Kids in the car matters, it is silly to suggest other wise is just silly.
> 
> Why in the world are people taking up for his wife. Christian Married women, or men for that matter, should not, and lots do not, do what his wife did.
> 
> It was inappropriate in just about every way it could be, and the is guessing the they did not have sex, which they probably did not, and hopefully will not.
> 
> If you think that in the context of any form of Christian Ministry that this is OK you just don't know what you are talking about. The crux is to SET AN EXAMPLE for others, to avoid the APPEARANCE of any form of impropriety.
> 
> This is just really not that hard to understand...


I know what you are saying, and I agree with you, but I just DID NOT LIKE the way he presented what happened. I didn't like how it sounded unclear and that there was a lack of specific details, and he seemed to be all over the place with his anger about it. I am NOT sticking up for his wife - but I don't trust HIS perception of what happened, and I wanted to post something to make him THINK about that.

And when I read that this woman that he rode with, and then surmised that she wasn't talking to him because she must thing he's a jerk, ALSO talked to guys the same age for the same reason...well, it made me wonder WHY a Christian group is doing a retreat (or whatever it is) where these boundaries are not clear. 

And for the record, my first husband's cousin slid his hand up my thigh while we were driving our kids to his grandmother's house from the aunt's house, with 5 tiny kids laughing and playing and asking both of us questions the whole time...so to me, the texting is less threatening to the marriage than driving together.

I AGREE with you - and I'm really not sure why any "Christian Ministry" would be having older married women mentor younger men like that. Which is another reason I'm not clear on what the heck is going on with his whole story.


----------



## BluesPower

minimalME said:


> @BluesPower are you a Christian? Did I miss that somewhere?


Yes I am, not the best one ever, but yes. 

I was involved in ministry at many levels, and this stuff comes up all the time. You do not do this for all the reasons that you could imagine...

Further, I would have an issue if my Fiancé did this when I was not around. It is the look of the situation. 

I mean, she does not want me to have lunch with my ex GF or really any woman I have slept with, and I really don't blame her. Not that I would cheat, but it looks bad.


----------



## BluesPower

LisaDiane said:


> I know what you are saying, and I agree with you, but I just DID NOT LIKE the way he presented what happened. I didn't like how it sounded unclear and that there was a lack of specific details, and he seemed to be all over the place with his anger about it. I am NOT sticking up for his wife - but I don't trust HIS perception of what happened, and I wanted to post something to make him THINK about that.
> 
> And when I read that this woman that he rode with, and then surmised that she wasn't talking to him because she must thing he's a jerk, ALSO talked to guys the same age for the same reason...well, it made me wonder WHY a Christian group is doing a retreat (or whatever it is) where these boundaries are not clear.
> 
> And for the record, my first husband's cousin slid his hand up my thigh while we were driving our kids to his grandmother's house from the aunt's house, with 5 tiny kids laughing and playing and asking both of us questions the whole time...so to me, the texting is less threatening to the marriage than driving together.
> 
> I AGREE with you - and I'm really not sure why any "Christian Ministry" would be having older married women mentor younger men like that. Which is another reason I'm not clear on what the heck is going on with his whole story.


Look you may be right, I don't know if he was a jerk. 

And I get what you are saying. Let me just say this as well... 

If my Fiancé was camping, and for some reason I was not there, and I found out that she hung out with a guy till who knows when in the morning... WE WOULD HAVE A HUGE PROBLEM. 

It is entirely possible that based on her attitude that I would divorce her, if we were married by then, or breakup with her on the spot. 

And I am not some Neanderthal, when we are out, guys can hit on her or flirt a little, it happens... But this is something different. 

Frankly, If I did the same thing she is liable to cut my man parts off. 

We are not kids, we are not crazy, but we know how this stuff happens. She and I have a responsibility to NOT put ourselves in a vulnerable situation. 

It is called protecting the relationship...


----------



## minimalME

See, this is a surprise_ to me_, because (and please correct me if I'm wrong) what I recall from your posts is how much unmarried sex you've been having. And are currently having. I never, ever would've guessed you're a Christian.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

You come on this thread, lambasting a woman whose life you know nothing about. You take her husband's version of things as flawless truth and shred her up every which way, and yet you're just as guilty of not living out your values.

None of us live them out perfectly. And yet what I'm reading in your posts is that we should be embracing the hightest standard possible. There should be no hint of impropriety, right?

So, it would be nice to see a little more grace and understanding and/or promoting the notion of forgiveness from you. Considering your blatant hypocrisy.

And that goes for any and all Christian posters who think they're above it all.



BluesPower said:


> Yes I am, not the best one ever, but yes.


----------



## BluesPower

minimalME said:


> See, this is a surprise_ to me_, because (and please correct me if I'm wrong) what I recall from your posts is how much unmarried sex you've been having. And are currently having. I never, ever would've guessed you're a Christian.
> 
> Do you see what I'm getting at?
> 
> You come on this thread, lambasting a woman who's life you no nothing about. You take her husband's version of things as flawless truth and shred her up every which way, and yet you're just as guilty of not living out your values.
> 
> None of us live them out perfectly. And yet what I'm reading in your posts is that we should be embracing the hightest standard possible. There should be no hint of impropriety, right?
> 
> So, it would be nice to see a little more grace and understand and/or promoting the notion of forgivingness from you. Considering your blatant hypocrisy.
> 
> And that goes for any and all Christian posters who think they're above it all.


I did not say I was a really good Christian, just that I am one.

And I am the first to say that before my F, I got around, quite a bit. And, technically, I am still having a lot of unmarried sex, just with one woman.

I am also, not in ministry anymore. But I have been there.

So take that for what you will. I am not asking anyone to follow my example. I am not setting myself up to be morally superior. I just believe.

Oh, I just saw the blatant hypocrisy comment. 

So... I guess you are not a Christian then, because one of the first telnets is forgiveness. "All have fallen short of the glory of God." 

My sex or lack of sex has nothing to do with what I would expect in a relationship or marriage. And it has nothing to do with what is considered "Right" and "Wrong" in a ministry setting or a church retreat. 

What this women did was wrong, and it was wrong for a lot of reasons...

I make no apologies for my life, or my decisions, or anything else.


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## Blondilocks

FWIW, I don't get the impression the wife is technically in a ministerial position. It sounds more like fellow parishioners were ministering to one another. What used to be called lending a shoulder to cry on. 

I don't think I would be allowing my children to go on any more of those so-called church retreats. It sounds more like a brain-washing extravaganza.


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## LisaDiane

BluesPower said:


> Look you may be right, I don't know if he was a jerk.
> 
> And I get what you are saying. Let me just say this as well...
> 
> If my Fiancé was camping, and for some reason I was not there, and I found out that she hung out with a guy till who knows when in the morning... WE WOULD HAVE A HUGE PROBLEM.
> 
> It is entirely possible that based on her attitude that I would divorce her, if we were married by then, or breakup with her on the spot.
> 
> And I am not some Neanderthal, when we are out, guys can hit on her or flirt a little, it happens... But this is something different.
> 
> Frankly, If I did the same thing she is liable to cut my man parts off.
> 
> We are not kids, we are not crazy, but we know how this stuff happens. She and I have a responsibility to NOT put ourselves in a vulnerable situation.
> 
> It is called protecting the relationship...


I also think it's great that you guys know those boundaries for eachother, and agree with them!!

For the record, I've spent over an hour at times talking to different friends of my sons' (all in their mid-late 20s) who are having trouble in their lives or with their girlfriends or parents, and I've NEVER had any weird feelings from them, and even if they ever flirted with me, it would be funny and a little creepy. I know it's not like this for alot of people (we have the threads on here to prove it), but for ME, it WOULD be totally innocent and from a place of wanting to help a fellow human in pain (I've also talked to 20-something girls when asked to), and NO threat whatsoever to any man I was in love with. Of course, if he didn't like it, I would never do it.

For me, with SO many of the threads on here that I read...I think of how terribly you guys would roast ME if my husband posted about our problems on here, from HIS view of how things have happened between us (a story that changes, depending on what reaction he's wanting to create in the listener)...so I try to be careful with my initial reaction to whatever I read from random/new posters.


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## StarFires

minimalME said:


> See, this is a surprise_ to me_, because (and please correct me if I'm wrong) what I recall from your posts is how much unmarried sex you've been having. And are currently having. I never, ever would've guessed you're a Christian.
> 
> Do you see what I'm getting at?
> 
> You come on this thread, lambasting a woman who's life you know nothing about. You take her husband's version of things as flawless truth and shred her up every which way, and yet you're just as guilty of not living out your values.
> 
> None of us live them out perfectly. And yet what I'm reading in your posts is that we should be embracing the hightest standard possible. There should be no hint of impropriety, right?
> 
> So, it would be nice to see a little more grace and understanding and/or promoting the notion of forgivingness from you. Considering your blatant hypocrisy.
> 
> And that goes for any and all Christian posters who think they're above it all.


That deserved repeating!


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## seadoug105

Blondilocks said:


> FWIW, I don't get the impression the wife is technically in a ministerial position. It sounds more like fellow parishioners were ministering to one another. What used to be called lending a shoulder to cry on.
> 
> I don't think I would be allowing my children to go on any more of those so-called church retreats. It sounds more like a brain-washing extravaganza.



But would you exchange phone numbers with a young single guy (she described as “tall and good looking“)???

and would it be ok for your husband to do the same?

My wife and I will often have conversation brief or a bit longer with people of the opposite sex. especially while waiting on our kids to finish up. One thing we don’t do is exchange phone numbers!

it creates more questions than answers.... maybe im old fashioned but (with extreme rare exception) exchanging phone numbers with someone of the opposite sex after the “nightly news” starts shouldn’t be done. If you wouldn’t do it in the light of day with peer around you then you don’t do it late at night especially when you (she) could have waited till the light of day and verify.... was this guy really the type of person she would want to have her number....

look at it a different way.... he is lingering around at the boys shower (no info why) strikes up a conversation with a mom exchanges numbers, more than likely gathered other details about her, her family, HER CHILDREN.... as a father of 2 boys around this age (pre-teen/teen).... I don’t trust any adult male older or younger lingering around where boys are showering especially when they don’t have a boy in the shower... regardless of the venue...


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## Annoyed_Hubby

Starfires, you're very perceptive. Even with my poor/angered writing of the "facts" (really my conjecture) but you seemed to figure it out. You're a real credit to this board.

I confirmed that the midnight dance was more of a "music got turned on and kids did some line dances" kind of thing in the lodge which happened to be where the showers were. I also confirmed that after this "dance" a lot of kids ran to the showers (so this would have been like 12:30 am) and there were several showers happening so after being at the camp I can imagine there was a lot of activity at 12:50 am or so when my wife received the text which was just contact info that my wife then shared with my daughter (confirmed this text also). I think my wife was wanting this good young man to get his team to go and pray with my daughter who I mentioned had been through some trauma (this trauma and stress is in some way connected to my excessively angry response- still reeling/crying/angry from the news of this event myself). In sum, the camp/retreat was a little unorthodox in that teenage kids were running around in the middle of the night but it was well supervised.

So I apologized for losing my temper, for jumping to insane conclusions and my wife (kindly) reassured that she would never have talked to this young man alone or even talked to him if he were our age but that she really felt more like a mother to him and thought he could actually help our daughter (he'd been in some trauma in his life which had pushed him back to the church and my daughter is more feeling pushed out of it). This group of young men are actually sort of "on fire" with the faith and are very personable and sort of their thing in life is traveling around and telling people their conversion stories and praying with them. 

So yeah, I'm a big jerk. I heard that my wife only "got three hours of sleep" and had been talking outside the showers with a young man, and saw the text from him when looking for directions to the camp- and I pretty much invented a terrible story in my head- even though I know better. My wife is kind, friendly, and interested and talkative with just about everyone. In my defense, she is also incredibly beautiful and shapely and men everywhere are interested in her- so yeah I tend to go a little crazy when I hear that some man was keeping time with her (every fiber in my body is ready to fight to the death for her... it almost like a physiological response). 

The only thing left is to discuss is how to make this all up to her? I bought roses, made dinner, apologized several times..... maybe some day I'll grow up.


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## Blondilocks

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> Starfires, you're very perceptive. Even with my poor/angered writing of the "facts" (really my conjecture) but you seemed to figure it out. You're a real credit to this board.
> 
> I confirmed that the midnight dance was more of a "music got turned on and kids did some line dances" kind of thing in the lodge which happened to be where the showers were. I also confirmed that after this "dance" a lot of kids ran to the showers (so this would have been like 12:30 am) and there were several showers happening so after being at the camp I can imagine there was a lot of activity at 12:50 am or so when my wife received the text which was just contact info that my wife then shared with my daughter (confirmed this text also). I think my wife was wanting this good young man to get his team to go and pray with my daughter who I mentioned had been through some trauma (this trauma and stress is in some way connected to my excessively angry response- still reeling/crying/angry from the news of this event myself). In sum, the camp/retreat was a little unorthodox in that teenage kids were running around in the middle of the night but it was well supervised.
> 
> So I apologized for losing my temper, for jumping to insane conclusions and my wife (kindly) reassured that she would never have talked to this young man alone or even talked to him if he were our age but that she really felt more like a mother to him and thought he could actually help our daughter (he'd been in some trauma in his life which had pushed him back to the church and my daughter is more feeling pushed out of it). This group of young men are actually sort of "on fire" with the faith and are very personable and sort of their thing in life is traveling around and telling people their conversion stories and praying with them.
> 
> So yeah, I'm a big jerk. I heard that my wife only "got three hours of sleep" and had been talking outside the showers with a young man, and saw the text from him when looking for directions to the camp- and I pretty much invented a terrible story in my head- even though I know better. My wife is kind, friendly, and interested and talkative with just about everyone. In my defense, she is also incredibly beautiful and shapely and men everywhere are interested in her- so yeah I tend to go a little crazy when I hear that some man was keeping time with her (every fiber in my body is ready to fight to the death for her... it almost like a physiological response).
> 
> The only thing left is to discuss is how to make this all up to her? I bought roses, made dinner, apologized several times..... maybe some day I'll grow up.


Welcome to TAM where the smell of burgers being grilled ALWAYS means there is a 3 alarm fire (as long as the person doing the grilling is female).


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## Divinely Favored

DownByTheRiver said:


> I delete all texts as soon as I've read them. It's organization and not liking things piling up.
> 
> I will just say it's unlikely this very young man is into your wife.


He could see her as a MILF.


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## DownByTheRiver

Maybe. I mean, 20-year-olds are perpetually randy....but still hard to see him as a threat.


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## SunCMars

bobert said:


> So now she's changing the story? Earlier you said you understood she was settled in her cabin for the night at 11PM. How exactly can "the kids are having a midnight dance" be mistaken for "I'm setting into my cabin for the night with the other ladies"?
> 
> *Have you talked to your kids about the trip? Asked them how the dance went, etc. to verify facts that way.*


This!!

Perform this conversation with your son away from home. In a calm setting.

Maybe, while sitting, eating hamburgers for lunch, say, at McDonalds or someplace he likes.

And be very calm when asking.

Children are apt to give quick answers (incomplete) to everything, thinking, they themselves 'might' have done something wrong. Plus, those things that do not interest them go over their head.

Keep in mind....

There may have been a dance, the wife's story may match up. But, her whereabouts during all this, may be in question. The other parents may have acted as chaperones for all children present.

This much, I know, if the wife is the wary type, or guilty of anything, she will ask the kid, "What did you and your dad talk about?"




Blondilocks said:


> FWIW, I don't get the impression the wife is technically in a ministerial position. It sounds more like fellow parishioners were ministering to one another. What used to be called lending a shoulder to cry on.
> 
> I don't think I would be allowing my children to go on any more of those so-called church retreats. It sounds more like a brain-washing extravaganza.


I agree, but kids need a counter view point from the ones they receive in public schools, on the street, and on TV.

Ours, is an "_anything goes culture"_ right now. Talking to 3rd graders about sex, condoms, gay and transsexual people.
Uh, no thank you. Too early, make it an 11th grader subject.

*Yes, we are all different. *

There is a big difference between bringing up those huge differences than in '_encouraging this behavior or these thoughts in young people._

Children are confused enough, as it is.

It is called incrementalism. Slowly steering someone (especially kids) from what is most common (not using the charged word, normal).

Our culture is collapsing around our ears.....it seems. 😕


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## SunCMars

DownByTheRiver said:


> Maybe. I mean, 20-year-olds are perpetually randy....but still hard to see him as a threat.


Once a young person has (pleasantly) tasted flesh from a much different era (older) than theirs, they may no longer shy away from it, thinking it too weird. 

They can get emboldened and disrespectful (and vice versa, from the older person). 

Our society is always trying to smash down all of the conventional boundaries.

Good luck with that.


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## ConanHub

Blondilocks said:


> Welcome to TAM where the smell of burgers being grilled ALWAYS means there is a 3 alarm fire (as long as the person doing the grilling is female).


I'm an equal opportunity griller.

I have also been in ministry for decades and this was still a situation worth investigating.

OP has issues aside which didn't help but it doesn't negate the questionable situation the wife was in.


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## aine

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> Starfire made me feel like a jerk (which I am) so I apologized again at bedtime and a third time this morning. My wife did say a quick “love you” in response to mine but really didn’t respond to my apologies. I’m picking up some roses here in a bit (she loves them). I guess I’m the ultimate fool but she’s super adamant that they weren’t alone and kids were showering clear to 1 am and said she had no intention to stay in at 11 pm when we talked because kids had a dance type thing at midnight. I’m sure this is confusing to the story here but may make sense to those who’ve intently read my posts.
> 
> I strength train four days per week and have for years so I’m actually more ripped than when we married, for what it’s worth.
> 
> My only friends are really only other couples... I don’t really have any men as friends except those that we get together with our families. I’ll think about that and maybe try to get to know some guys at work better.
> 
> Thanks... let me have it..


i think the circumstances are not really the issue, the issue is that she shows you disrespect in how she responds. She feels you do not trust her and you feel she is disrespectful. You need to deal with that. If a spouse is concerned about the others feelings then they will explain and be open about it.


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## aine

BluesPower said:


> I did not say I was a really good Christian, just that I am one.
> 
> And I am the first to say that before my F, I got around, quite a bit. And, technically, I am still having a lot of unmarried sex, just with one woman.
> 
> I am also, not in ministry anymore. But I have been there.
> 
> So take that for what you will. I am not asking anyone to follow my example. I am not setting myself up to be morally superior. I just believe.
> 
> Oh, I just saw the blatant hypocrisy comment.
> 
> So... I guess you are not a Christian then, because one of the first telnets is forgiveness. "All have fallen short of the glory of God."
> 
> My sex or lack of sex has nothing to do with what I would expect in a relationship or marriage. And it has nothing to do with what is considered "Right" and "Wrong" in a ministry setting or a church retreat.
> 
> What this women did was wrong, and it was wrong for a lot of reasons...
> 
> I make no apologies for my life, or my decisions, or anything else.



Seriously @BluesPower you are not going to use that one 'all have fallen short of the glory of God." You know that having sex outside of marriage is totally against the Christian faith and simply say ah yay but you know I have a free get out of jail card! 

Romans 6:15-17 _W*hat then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!* *16*Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? *17*But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, *18*and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. _

I like you BP but this is hypocrisy at its best. The OP's wife is blameless based on the facts not on the narrative of the OP which is not facts, just his supposition. Yet you expect women to abide by no talking late to a man rule, bring in the Christian faith yet sleep around, please stop! You have lost all credibility and I have to call you out on this


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## Beach123

You have been weak. You’re wife knows she wasn’t respecting her daughter or you.

she never should have Given her number. She never should have given your daughters info! That’s disrespectful!

work on boundaries! You apologize when you shouldn’t! Your wife has VERY poor boundaries!!! It harms the family dynamics!!! And creates lack of trust!

she Also owes your daughter An apology!

you've got This relationship backwards. Why does your wife hold ALL the power?


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## Davie

minimalME said:


> I'm a little confused. What exactly are you upset about?
> 
> Your wife is a grown woman, and harrassing her about her bedtime or how much sleep she got makes you sound like her dad.
> 
> Are you troubled that she was having a late night, one on one conversation with a man half her age whom she described as attractive?
> 
> I'm only going by what you've written, but it comes across like you just want something to be pissed off about, and you seem to have blown this _way_ out of proportion.
> 
> You confronted her? She made excuses? She was trying to convince you? She's spinning the truth?
> 
> My question would be more along the lines of, why is this your mindset towards your wife? Where has all this emotion come from? Are there other things you're agitated about? Are you annoyed that they all went without you?


WOW no way dude. She is up to no good! Out of respect to you she shouldn’t find comfort from another man In the middle of the night unless that man is you


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## Evinrude58

My take on this. I’ve Read the thread.

the wife didn’t erase the text. Wasn’t trying to cover anything up. I don’t believe she’s guilty of cheating. However, let’s be realistic, she thought he was handsome and
What she did WAS inappropriate.
Her husband would have received far worse if he had a text from a young lady that he said was pretty at 1am.

His wife, rather than alleviating his fears, chose to become angry—- I believe that is the behavior of a guilty conscience, or the attitude of a woman that doesn’t value her spouse enough.

I think he is wrong for apologizing and making nice-nice, because he is most definitely still resentful about it.
Just fuel for another angry outburst.

I think you should sit down and discuss your reasons for displeasure at this incident in a way that you would as a trusting husband.
But it needs to be addressed.

What you are doing OP is creating a precedent where you get angry, your feelings aren’t addressed, and you are expected to come up with numerous apologies or emotions are WITHHELD by your wife as punishment.

It is inappropriate for your wife to be individually counseling a young man period, but in the dark of night, for sure no. To give him her personal phone number—- clearly inappropriate.

The kid may have had zero bad intentions (likely), not your wife (likely).
But the whole thing was inappropriate.

Were this to happen with a young woman and an adult man....... we all know the righteous shouts that would be heard around the gallery would be deafening.

a reasonable conversation should have been had about this. OP, I think you’re scared of your wife, inasmuch as you are aftraid she will withhold affection if you say it do the slightest thing to offend her. I hope I’m wrong.


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## SunCMars

Since this young bud was nipped at the pass, he will now back off from ministering to OP's wife's (and daughters) needs.

We would hope.
We should hope.
Umm..


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## Buffer

I still think she was out of line chatting and texting a young man. 
you couldn’t get away with that. 
buffer


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## SunCMars

When a male spouse, or a manly fiancee ****-blocks his love, we should not admonish his rationale, only his words and actions _if they are excessive._
What is a man's, is his, only if he can 'properly' hold on to it.

Some *women are very independent and dislike any thought of control or any thought of borders (as it affects them).
They will suffer for this way of thinking. 

So shall any who hold them in high esteem.

One should feel wanted and flattered when another fights for you.
Should, is not always the expressed outcome.

.....................................................

*men also, natch..


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## aine

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> Starfire made me feel like a jerk (which I am) so I apologized again at bedtime and a third time this morning. My wife did say a quick “love you” in response to mine but really didn’t respond to my apologies. I’m picking up some roses here in a bit (she loves them). I guess I’m the ultimate fool but she’s super adamant that they weren’t alone and kids were showering clear to 1 am and said she had no intention to stay in at 11 pm when we talked because kids had a dance type thing at midnight. I’m sure this is confusing to the story here but may make sense to those who’ve intently read my posts.
> 
> I strength train four days per week and have for years so I’m actually more ripped than when we married, for what it’s worth.
> 
> My only friends are really only other couples... I don’t really have any men as friends except those that we get together with our families. I’ll think about that and maybe try to get to know some guys at work better.
> 
> Thanks... let me have it..


You sound insecure and you BOTH have poor boundaries. Talk about your respective boundaries. If a husband has an issue with his wife's friendliness etc then there are many ways to approach it without becoming an overbearing bully or green eyed monster. Just talk about boundaries and that you love her and are very protective of your marriage. Presented like that any wife will be willing to engage An interrogation or accusations with any spouse does not work.


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## aine

Divinely Favored said:


> He could see her as a MILF.





Divinely Favored said:


> He could see her as a MILF.


Just drop it, why stoke the fires some more, this is exactly why the OP got into this whirlwind of delusion. Enough!


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## aine

Evinrude58 said:


> My take on this. I’ve Read the thread.
> 
> the wife didn’t erase the text. Wasn’t trying to cover anything up. I don’t believe she’s guilty of cheating. However, let’s be realistic, she thought he was handsome and
> What she did WAS inappropriate.
> Her husband would have received far worse if he had a text from a young lady that he said was pretty at 1am.
> 
> *His wife, rather than alleviating his fears, chose to become angry—- I believe that is the behavior of a guilty conscience, or the attitude of a woman that doesn’t value her spouse enough.*
> 
> I think he is wrong for apologizing and making nice-nice, because he is most definitely still resentful about it.
> Just fuel for another angry outburst.


I think many of the problems in marriage would not occur if spouses treated each other with kindness, understanding and empathy. However, sometimes if one is accused or lorded over on a regular basis it becomes old. I suggest that the OP has some major insecurities to end up inventing this narrative.


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## Young at Heart

Annoyed_Hubby said:


> ....I guess maybe I’m crazy for being jealous and angry. My wife pointed out that said young man is younger than some our kids .......
> 
> What do you think?


I think you have a huge red flag, but you have to ask yourself why you feel so threatened and has she ever done anything to violate your trust. I would keep on eye on her, but you do need to trust her.


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## Divinely Favored

aine said:


> Just drop it, why stoke the fires some more, this is exactly why the OP got into this whirlwind of delusion. Enough!


These posts were from months ago?????or are you just bringing it up again because?


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## aine

Divinely Favored said:


> These posts were from months ago?????or are you just bringing it up again because?


My bad!


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## ciuleandra

jealousy is an inner problem which you should work with. Sometimes I am also jealous (even if there is no why to be...women) but every time I remember that for my father it was soo difficult to handle the theater my mom was doing at each message. So I calm down instantly


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