# Why Does the "Non-Fun" Parent Finish Last?



## 827Aug

I realize my children are almost grown, but I've got an issue that's bothering me lately. Since my husband and I began having serious marital problems five years ago, the children seem to be distancing themselves from me even more. Unfortunately, my narcissist husband is largely to blame. He is the "fun" parent in the relationship. I've always had to me the mature, practical parent. That fact was bad enough while we were a family unit. But now that we are divorcing, things seem to be deteriorating.

Since my estranged husband moved out over two years ago, he has not paid any child support. I was okay with that the first year because I earned enough money to support all of us. However, when asked at a court hearing this year about why he hadn't contributed to their support, his answer was interesting. He basically told the court he had contributed--he gave them things they *wanted.*. And some of those things I had said "no" to.

This past year has been horrible both financially and health wise. Our business closed and I have not had an income in over a year. Therefore, I'm very frugal with what money I have. And that's where the latest discord came in. I basically told my two teenage daughters I was majorly cutting the budget. Well, one of them severely lashed out at me three weeks ago and went to her dad's place. Although he doesn't have a job, money seems to appear. So, he takes them out to the movies, restaurants, clothing stores, salon's, etc. Heck, who could blame a couple of teenage girls from choosing him over me? Why is it the parent with money seems to win? School starts in a couple of days and I don't even know if they will be coming back home.

I have basically lost most material things, but "losing" my three children like this is unbearable. My mother keeps telling me they will see what their dad really is one day and their hearts will change. My therapist tells me the same thing. I know one of my brothers went through something similar. Now his grown children see the light, so to speak, and are now close to him. Anyone else going though this?


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## Chris Taylor

Have not gone through a divorce, but did have my kids distance themselves from me for a while because I wasn't the fun guy.

They came back. 

Keep in the back of your mind that they will return with a little more maturity and humility than when they left.


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## 827Aug

Thanks for the encouragement, Chris. I can only hope this happens in my situation. Daily life without them is hard enough, but the holidays are even worse. It's a shame that money and fun go so far in our culture.


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## Crypsys

They are teenagers. They are self-centered, self-absorbed as they should be. It's something we all go through in order to grow as individuals. There will come a time as they mature in which they understand why you were the way you were. They will begin to understand what love and parenting really is. For now though, you will be the bad guy because you place limits. There is not really anything you can do right now. Just hold your head up high and know you are doing the right thing. It will take time, but one day they will realize it too!


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## TNgirl232

Agree with the others. When they are in their 20's (if not sooner) they will realize daddy is buying their love. 

Why won't the courts mandate child support from him?


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## Janie

Stay the course and don't waver. You're doing the right thing for your children. Don't change and definitely don't try to compete with him. Everyone loses if you do.

I have been through this - with my older 2 children (when they were teenagers) completely rejecting me after the divorce and choosing him. They liked the lack of rules and loose spending habits. Didn't take long for them to realize the relationship they had with their father was superficial (still causes problems for them today).

My younger two (now teenagers) seem more aware, but also enjoy the loose spending and lax rules. They seem to know the relationship is superficial. They come to me for things they need or when they need to be heard, and go to him when they want something. 

Each child will realize in their own time - no telling when that will be. It may even take until they become parents themselves. But, if you are doing what you know if right, and are consistent with it, you will have no regrets and you will get them back... someday.


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## 827Aug

Crypsys said:


> They are teenagers. They are self-centered, self-absorbed as they should be. It's something we all go through in order to grow as individuals. There will come a time as they mature in which they understand why you were the way you were. They will begin to understand what love and parenting really is. For now though, you will be the bad guy because you place limits. There is not really anything you can do right now. Just hold your head up high and know you are doing the right thing. It will take time, but one day they will realize it too!


Thanks, Crypsys. I guess this is one of the reasons I pray for patience each day. The waiting part can be agonizing. I have trouble understanding how much is due to them being teenagers and how much is due to this divorce. Apparently I didn't go through this when I was a teenager--my mom and I were best friends.


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## 827Aug

TNgirl232 said:


> Agree with the others. When they are in their 20's (if not sooner) they will realize daddy is buying their love.
> 
> Why won't the courts mandate child support from him?


My son will soon be 21; he went to live with his dad in 2008. The only reason he moved was to be close to the college. He is extremely bright and had several scholarships. However, due to "no fire under his feet" he has lost his scholarships. It's a good thing I prepaid college tuition when all of the children were young. Otherwise he would have nothing now. He still may have nothing--when he goes through that. He should have already graduated.

I got to spend two hours with my son on Christmas Eve and that was with my estranged husband here too. Then he called me on Mother's Day. And that's about all the contact I've had with him. Maybe by the time he is 30 I will see a change for the better.

The courts are practically a joke. And in all honesty, I can't even pursue much legal action on the domestic side until we (estranged husband & me) get a national level contract dispute settled. Contract lawyer says she can do without our "dirty laundry" getting revealed in her case. So, when this contract lawsuit is settled, I will be going back to court for child support and spousal support. But until December it's going to be tough.


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## dblkman

I went (am going) thru the same thing. My ex buys my sons love! Two of my 4 sons are adults and they trust and call me before they call or visit their mother. The reason is they saw thru her farce as they grew up and realized that she is NOT the most responsible person. Let your teen live with their dad for awhile, it will give them a dose of reality. When they are ready to come back do not be hasty in accepting them, sit down with them and make some ground rules with number 1 being "there will be no back and forth between parents just because you get mad".


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## 827Aug

Janie said:


> Stay the course and don't waver. You're doing the right thing for your children. Don't change and definitely don't try to compete with him. Everyone loses if you do.
> 
> I have been through this - with my older 2 children (when they were teenagers) completely rejecting me after the divorce and choosing him. They liked the lack of rules and loose spending habits. Didn't take long for them to realize the relationship they had with their father was superficial (still causes problems for them today).
> 
> My younger two (now teenagers) seem more aware, but also enjoy the loose spending and lax rules. They seem to know the relationship is superficial. They come to me for things they need or when they need to be heard, and go to him when they want something.
> 
> Each child will realize in their own time - no telling when that will be. It may even take until they become parents themselves. But, if you are doing what you know if right, and are consistent with it, you will have no regrets and you will get them back... someday.


Thanks for the encouragement. It's just tough in the meantime. Thank God for my loving family (brothers & their families plus my mother) and plenty of four-legged critters to keep me company.


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## TNgirl232

dblkman said:


> I went (am going) thru the same thing. My ex buys my sons love! Two of my 4 sons are adults and they trust and call me before they call or visit their mother. The reason is they saw thru her farce as they grew up and realized that she is NOT the most responsible person. Let your teen live with their dad for awhile, it will give them a dose of reality. When they are ready to come back do not be hasty in accepting them, sit down with them and make some ground rules with number 1 being "there will be no back and forth between parents just because you get mad".


Amen about the back and forth - I said when I got divorced that if my daughter ever said i want to live with daddy - I would pack her bags and send her. She will be back. I agree that you can't fall into the guilt they are trying to build in that situation. Call their bluff. If you don't they'll use that card every time they don't get their way.


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## 827Aug

dblkman, thanks for the encouragement and advice.


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## turnera

What are you doing to bring income in?


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## 827Aug

Although I have plenty to do, nothing is bringing in income currently. I'm very fortunate I was always a "saver" when times were good. However, that really isn't relevant to my question. Even if I did have plenty of money, I still wouldn't be spoiling the children. That's part of the problem--they were given too much when times were good.


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## turnera

No, I didn't mean that. I just know some ways to bring in extra money, depending on the kind of work you do. I was just going to suggest them if you were interested.

You've already gotten the same advice I would have given - give them time to stop being self-centered teenagers, lol. I remember I hated my mom from about 15 to 23. Then it finally occurred to me all the sacrificing she had done; as a teenager, you rarely see it.

You may want to try writing them letters. That would have made a huge difference to me at their age.


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## 827Aug

turnera said:


> No, I didn't mean that. I just know some ways to bring in extra money, depending on the kind of work you do. I was just going to suggest them if you were interested.


turnera, I'm so sorry to be defensive on this issue. Lately this has been a sensitive issue. Part of the story is that I nearly died last fall. I became very ill (under suspicious circumstances) and spent two weeks on a ventilator. My lungs completely failed and my temperature was so high that the hospital kept ice on me for weeks. In the process I had brain damage. At one point the doctors told my family I would never survive. But I lived and had a lot of mental and physical therapy afterward. I do really well, but I now have limitations. And I'm okay with this. I just get upset when my estranged husband or one of my daughters tells me that I need to find a job--that there is nothing wrong with me!

I really would welcome any suggestions you may have on earning extra income. Lately I've been trying to come up with ideas for a future business. One day when this divorce is final, the court case is over, and bankruptcy is out of the way, I hope to have a new business and a life again. Whatever I end up pursuing is probably going to have to rely on more brain than brawn though.



tunera said:


> You've already gotten the same advice I would have given - give them time to stop being self-centered teenagers, lol. I remember I hated my mom from about 15 to 23. Then it finally occurred to me all the sacrificing she had done; as a teenager, you rarely see it.


Many people tell me this--that teenagers and their parents are supposed to be at odds. It just seems strange to me. My mother and I were best friends when I was in that age group. I guess the relationship between my mother and me was unusual.

Anyway, I do appreciate your input here. I've read many of your posts and see that you have much wisdom.


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## 827Aug

My daughters did come home today. So far everything is okay. I took one of them out driving today. She needed to practice for her driving test. Fortunately she passed the test and now has a regular license. I guess that solves one problem but probably creates other problems.

While out today daughters and I had an interesting conversation. Well, mostly they talked and I listened. Apparently dear ole dad spoiled them while they were at his place. The usual stuff--hair styling at expensive salon (dying too), nice clothes (even the undies from Victoria's Secret), etc. And here we are with no income and filing bankruptcy.:scratchhead: Then one of the daughters went on to tell me how much their dad misses them and how much he enjoys spoiling them. Ummmm K, then they proceed to tell me I shouldn't be demanding any child support out of dad because he buys them all these nice things. Yep, I buy all the necessities and he buys all the frills. How nice! 

Thanks for allowing me to vent everyone!


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## turnera

Are you pointing that out? That you pay for them to live, while all he does is buy 'nice' stuff? They need to hear it from you.


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## 827Aug

Oh, I have brought that to their attention--many times. Both my mother and counselor have told me to let them know the truth. I did keep my mouth shut today though. It was late in the afternoon, and I honestly wasn't up for a fight.

The counselor says she sees a bigger problem though. The estranged husband likes dating girls in their early 20s. He has treated these girlfriends the same way he treats our daughters--Spending a lot of money on them. The counselor says it is "grooming". I don't think the estrange husband will harm our daughters, but I just don't like it. My mother is quite upset about the situation; she brought up another interesting point tonight. She is afraid my daughters are going to have problems with future relationships. What man can ever stack up to dad. Guys in their age group will never be able to compare to good ole Santa Dad. So, now I'm wondering if they will become "sugar babies" hunting older affluent men who will spend money on them. Oh well, guess I will be chatting with the counselor tomorrow.


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## turnera

There's a great website called Daughters.com that covers a lot of things you're probably dealing with.


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## uhaul4mybaggage

My stbxh and i fought a lot over getting things for the boys. I was raised poor, but loved, and i think that it's important for children not to have everything they want, and especially not to just have it handed to them. i wanted to give them chores and teach them to work as part of the family unit, but H disagreed, and so did mother in law. his side of the family has more disposable cash, and they like to spend it. We spent the good part of our marriage liv ing above our means and racking up credit, rolling it into mortgages, and racking up more credit. Now we're both going to b bankrupt, very likely. My son thinks it grows on trees, and gets down if we turn him down for anything. Does not like to help out, though. Unless there is serious coin for minimal work. Makes me really sad, and I hope that I can turn it around before he gets older. when he is visiting with me, I try to get him off the couch and have him help me do dishes or vacuum. I try to avoid paying him every time because I want him to see that family members are supposed to just step up. I point out when I am doing chores and point out that I do them without being asked and cheerfully. scouts has had somewhat of a positive influence in this area, but there is much room for improvement. 
I think I would tell your children that you love them, more than any THING in the world, that you would give them the moon if you could, but you can't, so you will give them your ear, your shoulder, your hand, your heart. And even your foot in their rear, if that's what they need most. They should be old enough to see the value in the beautiful gifts you can give them. Good luck.


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## 827Aug

Thanks, uhaul4mybaggage. I hope things get better for you as well. Things got pretty bad here Friday night and Saturday morning. One of the girls just cannot understand NO and NO MONEY FOR THAT. She has it in her head those two obstacles are up for debate.


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## turnera

They are old enough for you to sit down with them and show them your spreadsheet on expenses. If you don't have one, this is a perfect time to sit down WITH your daughters and have them help you create one - as a family. They'll learn about money, learn about budgeting, and realize what you are up against. Great time also to discuss the difference between what Dad is doing and what YOU are doing.


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## 827Aug

Oh, we have done the budget thing. The counselor and I thought that would be a good idea last year when I no longer got a pay check from our business. The estranged husband continued getting his pay plus the money he embezzled. I also showed my daughters the "proof" of that. Unfortunately, one daughter saw nothing wrong with his behavior. She said he was entitled to do that because HE owned the business. That's not the case--I owned 50% of it. 

So, last night I was trying to go over a few budget items with them once again. Both of them got annoyed and told me there was only one solution--that I get off my lazy butt and get a job. Or that I file for disability. I told them I had already been turned down for disability because I didn't have enough "credits" earned. And that's because I was a SAHM for so many years. They are just having a hard time comprehending that we must live within my means. But I agree, the budgeting process is a valuable tool for many problems.


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## Brewster 59

827Aug said:


> Oh, we have done the budget thing. The counselor and I thought that would be a good idea last year when I no longer got a pay check from our business. The estranged husband continued getting his pay plus the money he embezzled. I also showed my daughters the "proof" of that. Unfortunately, one daughter saw nothing wrong with his behavior. She said he was entitled to do that because HE owned the business. That's not the case--I owned 50% of it.
> 
> So, last night I was trying to go over a few budget items with them once again. Both of them got annoyed and told me there was only one solution--that I get off my lazy butt and get a job. Or that I file for disability. I told them I had already been turned down for disability because I didn't have enough "credits" earned. And that's because I was a SAHM for so many years. They are just having a hard time comprehending that we must live within my means. But I agree, the budgeting process is a valuable tool for many problems.


So where does H get all the cash he burns through? He sounds like a flnancial train wreck. Is their no recourse for the cash he stole from the buisness?


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## OhGeesh

All I can say is maybe Karma is real let's hope it is in your case!! My friend went through the same thing She cheated wanted the divorce, she didn't work, he did.

He paid 42% of his GROSS income to child support, plus 66% of all healthcare, after school care, and had to give the ex wife 1/2 of the assets. Which meant buying her share of the house from her. Now he only gets to see the kids 12 days a month!! How is that fair?

She and her new man are living the fat life while he is flat out broke. She takes the kids to fun places while he can't do anything.

I wish you the best!!


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## 827Aug

Brewster 59 said:


> So where does H get all the cash he burns through? He sounds like a flnancial train wreck. Is their no recourse for the cash he stole from the buisness?


Well, since 2007 the estranged hubby was taking excessive amounts out of the business. It was anywhere from $20K to $30K a month. He flat out blew it. Then when the business closed several months ago, he secretly sold the inventory and kept the proceeds. Plus he now has a high paying job.

He is indeed a train wreck! Some of my earlier posts really go into more detail. The courts really couldn't do anything with his behavior until I filed divorce. That was supposed to have enabled me to go before the judge and get a court order to halt his actions. However, anything like that becomes public record. And there is a much bigger court case (involving a contract dispute) out there which could be jeopardized if some of our "dirty laundry" goes public. I've been between a rock and a hard place for 18 months now.

My lawyers keep assuring me justice will be served in the end. Supposedly all the unequal distributions he took will be added up. They will then be offset against some of the assets we jointly own--or it may mean more spousal support. Right now I'm just trying to hold out until I see some of the "justice" in terms of money. And it's hard because I really don't have much money and my children don't understand any of the situation. But, then I don't want them to choose sides either. As parents, I would like for both of us to be on an equal playing field where the children are concerned.


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## 827Aug

OhGeesh said:


> All I can say is maybe Karma is real let's hope it is in your case!! My friend went through the same thing She cheated wanted the divorce, she didn't work, he did.
> 
> He paid 42% of his GROSS income to child support, plus 66% of all healthcare, after school care, and had to give the ex wife 1/2 of the assets. Which meant buying her share of the house from her. Now he only gets to see the kids 12 days a month!! How is that fair?
> 
> She and her new man are living the fat life while he is flat out broke. She takes the kids to fun places while he can't do anything.
> 
> I wish you the best!!


Thanks Let's hope Karma comes into play. I do feel confident the courts will eventually even the playing field. It's going to take time--and patience on my part though. It's just hard standing on the sidelines watching what my estranged husband is doing. And equally hard enduring the heartbreak of what my family has become.


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## Brewster 59

827Aug said:


> Well, since 2007 the estranged hubby was taking excessive amounts out of the business. It was anywhere from $20K to $30K a month. He flat out blew it. Then when the business closed several months ago, he secretly sold the inventory and kept the proceeds. Plus he now has a high paying job.
> 
> He is indeed a train wreck! Some of my earlier posts really go into more detail. The courts really couldn't do anything with his behavior until I filed divorce. That was supposed to have enabled me to go before the judge and get a court order to halt his actions. However, anything like that becomes public record. And there is a much bigger court case (involving a contract dispute) out there which could be jeopardized if some of our "dirty laundry" goes public. I've been between a rock and a hard place for 18 months now.
> 
> My lawyers keep assuring me justice will be served in the end. Supposedly all the unequal distributions he took will be added up. They will then be offset against some of the assets we jointly own--or it may mean more spousal support. Right now I'm just trying to hold out until I see some of the "justice" in terms of money. And it's hard because I really don't have much money and my children don't understand any of the situation. But, then I don't want them to choose sides either. As parents, I would like for both of us to be on an equal playing field where the children are concerned.


Wow what an ahole H is, well at least sunny days are down the road for you. H might be the one singing the blues in the not so far future.


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## whynotme

I just wanted to chime in with some encouragement, because your post struck me to the heart.

My parents have been divorced for 15 years. I love them both dearly, but I know that if my mother had raised me by herself I would be completely spoiled and no good for this world. 

My Dad used to complain a lot about having to be "the bad guy" all the time, but only as an adult do I understand.

Please, take heart - this is coming from a daughter...when yours are grown they WILL appreciate you. It may take a few years, but they will.

Keep your head up.

-WNM


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## 827Aug

Thanks guys!


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## turnera

Are you guys having some fun for the holidays?


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## 827Aug

turnera said:


> Are you guys having some fun for the holidays?


Actually, I did get to have some fun this weekend. I spent a couple of days with some friends in another state. We went to a really big horse show. The friends were needing help with grooming and coordinating show wardrobes, so I kept busy--and visited with them.

My daughters seemed to have a good time this weekend also. I let them stay here at the house alone. They had their own activities and looked in on my elderly mother who lives nearby. It seems this was a win win weekend for all.

Hope everyone else is having a great holiday weekend as well.


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## hope4us

Hi Aug,
I need your help! I believe that my H is a narcissist, but how do I really know.


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## 827Aug

There's always more to the story.... I originally started this thread back on August 10th. Things had gotten to an all time low then. After the revelation this morning I have even more insight (& disgust). One of my daughters had discarded her old purse on one of the kitchen counter tops. After two weeks of asking nicely for her to either throw it away or take it to her room, I picked it up and was headed to the trash with it. That's when something interesting fell out. It was a ticket to a Broadway show in NYC. That peaked my curiosity, so I looked in the purse. Sure enough, there were copies of airline boarding passes in there too.

I decided to confront my daughters before they left for school. That didn't go well. At first, both of them dropped heads and tried to slink out the front door. Then both of them said I wasn't supposed to know about that trip. And then they got angry because I was snooping. What? Of course, we all know who was behind all of that! Yep, the "fun parent" was back on duty. One daughter said, "Dad just wanted us to all have a nice vacation after what all we've been through....and he had been saving up the money to take us." I point blank told them half of the money was mine anyway--I'm guessing the money came from our inventory he secretly sold. Our house mortgage hasn't been paid in five months, but it was more important to take expensive trips (this wasn't the only one). In other words it is a higher priority to have fun than to put a roof over the childrens' heads.

I was already suspicious about a few tees the girls were wearing anyway. They were " NY" t-shirts. One day while doing the laundry I asked them where those came from. They replied that they came from Wal-Mart. The estranged husband is teaching these children some bad lessons--don't pay bills, lie, steal, and be deceitful. It breaks my heart. 

My husband was taking so much money out of our business every month. Yet, he couldn't pay bills. Some times I wonder if there is money hidden off shore. Things just aren't adding up. One daughter had her phone cut off for two weeks this month because her dad couldn't pay the bill. But, on the other hand, we see these other extravagances. 

I got a call from the estranged husband yesterday telling me he just put a money order for me in the mail. He told me he got paid weekly now, so he would be sending me something weekly. In addition, he said he has hunting a cheaper place to live. That's kind of ironic because I had been in contact with the attorney about spousal support last week. The attorney was planning to get a hearing set up before the judge for temporary support. However, the husband keeps telling me that I will get more out of him, if I leave the lawyers out of it. Huh? I guess I'm supposed to trust him. lol

It's days like this one that so tempt me to pack my daughters' belongings and send them to live with their dad. I'm so tired of living with the deceit and hostilities.


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## turnera

All you can do is keep telling them what you're doing to take care of them.


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## 827Aug

turnera,

I know you are correct. That's what my mother, therapist, and minister all keep telling me too. It's just hard because over time it really makes even a strong person weary. It weighs heavily on my mind that I have two children who will go forth in this world with a character flaw. They have learned from the best--their dad. I feel for those who will face their deceit in the future. That's where I have failed as a mother. I did not instill the virtues of honesty, and integrity.


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## turnera

Well, if you keep talking about the value of those virtues, they WILL listen. And it may make them start to question what they're choosing to do. I would tell them point blank "I know dad is teaching you it's ok to lie, so that you can get to do the things you want to do. But I want you to realize that this is a bad choice moving forward. You can't make it in adulthood by lying to people - it catches up to you, people will start to think of you as liars, and they will choose to avoid you, or treat you accordingly. Not to mention you can get into big trouble. Imagine lying to your boss about why you skipped work, and him finding out - you just lost a job. Imagine lying to your husband about that little trip to the coast you took, thinking it won't hurt him if he doesn't know - when he finds out, you've just labeled yourself as untrustworthy, and you're liable to end up divorced. People don't need to lie to get what they want out of life."

Kids do listen. I give my daughter this kind of speech all the time. She's been at college for a month now, and Best Buy was supposed to let her transfer, but they still haven't got her set up! I've been pushing her to get it taken care of; we're going up there to see her this weekend, and I told her I still hadn't told her dad that they didn't hire her yet, and I hope she has it resolved before we get there. She said we could fib about it; I told her "No, we aren't going to lie - I've already been stretching things by not telling him about it and I feel bad about that (if he found out, he'd be over there yelling at them, making things worse) - but I'm NOT going to lie to him, and neither are you." 

You just have to keep finding ways to reinforce such things. They WILL listen. And they may be bought by him for the time being, but I promise you they'll see it all for what it really is, soon enough. It just may come later, rather than sooner.


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## 827Aug

turnera, you're right. Honesty is an ongoing lesson. My daughters' body language did say a lot this morning. They weren't comfortable when "busted". Maybe there is a conscience in there which will arise to the occasion one day--when their dad quits playing mind games.

I've been debating for a few days whether to precede to court on the spousal support issue. I think this mornings events have helped me decide. The therapist and I have debated this one also because there is an unknown area out there. The estranged husband keeps telling me I will get more out of him if I keep the lawyers out of this. But he lies about everything! My attorney says he prefers a judge's order on the spousal support because the man is a LIAR. The therapist feels the estranged husband is hiding something and really doesn't want the judicial system involved. And therefore, I might get more money if the courts are left out. It seems to be a role of the die. 

After the revelation this morning, i feel the sooner the playing field is equalized the better. Once I have child/spousal support I might can even afford things for the girls. At least the things each parent buys for the girls should be more equal. I guess we'll know if he has money hid some place then. If he does, well, we will still be seeing the extravagance on his part.


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## F-102

I just wonder, what are the kids gonna think of dear old fun dad when the gifts are gone because the man has caught up with him. He doesn't want to be in front of a judge because he's going to be found out, and the only time he will get to see his kids is through a plexiglass partition in a federal prison. That's what happens to embezzlers who mismanage company funds.


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## yogachick

The whole hiding money thing is really disturbing to me. A while ago, I called an attourney regarding a possible divorce with my husband. He is the attourney who handles the most wealthy in town. This man seemed very knowledgeable to me and spent a long time on the phone with me etc. and said to not even worry about my husband hiding money that they had a team of forensic accountants and that it really was pretty difficult to hide money. So I don't get it....did your husband always pay cash for everything or something like that.....something that would stick out as being not normal :scratchhead: 

Anyway, I know his deeds will catch up with him. I hope things continue to get better and better for you (((HUGS)))


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## 827Aug

F-102 said:


> I just wonder, what are the kids gonna think of dear old fun dad when the gifts are gone because the man has caught up with him. He doesn't want to be in front of a judge because he's going to be found out, and the only time he will get to see his kids is through a plexiglass partition in a federal prison. That's what happens to embezzlers who mismanage company funds.


He doesn't have to worry about embezzling charges--and he knows it. This was our family business. Since we are legally married, he basically got away with it. But, as the attorney keeps telling me we don't want him in jail. We need him out working!


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## 827Aug

yogachick said:


> The whole hiding money thing is really disturbing to me. A while ago, I called an attourney regarding a possible divorce with my husband. He is the attourney who handles the most wealthy in town. This man seemed very knowledgeable to me and spent a long time on the phone with me etc. and said to not even worry about my husband hiding money that they had a team of forensic accountants and that it really was pretty difficult to hide money. So I don't get it....did your husband always pay cash for everything or something like that.....something that would stick out as being not normal :scratchhead:
> 
> Anyway, I know his deeds will catch up with him. I hope things continue to get better and better for you (((HUGS)))


Thanks, yogachick. I do have a forensic accountant. Where we are going to run into problems is the fact that he has taking cash from the registers. It was anywhere from $200 to $1500 daily. Of course, the registers didn't balance. However, he blamed it on our cashiers--and that's yet another story! And then he didn't deposit much of the cash. Cash can be very hard to trace. 

The reason he deals in cash is because of several reasons. He is a shopaholic and never has been able to control his spending. Over the course of this saga, he has had several credit cards. He maxed them out and couldn't pay the bills. Therefore, he no longer has a working credit card. Second, he basically has an unusable checking account. He has bounced so many checks; then, fees are tacked on. Cash is basically his only option now. He just can't grasp the concept of expenses must be less than income.


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## yogachick

Cash, that explains it.


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## F-102

Eventually, your kids will grow up and realize that fun dad was never really there for them, he just bought them everything they wanted. C'mon, what teenager wouldn't want that? They then will see the results of his irresponsible ways, and I think that they will see that you gave them far more than Daddy Warbucks ever could.

People ask me when I realized that I was grown up, and I say it was when I woke up in the middle of the night and said to myself: "Oh my god! Dad was right!"


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## Trenton

Aug, happened upon your post and was reminded of Emma Bombeck. I know you'll enjoy this, it was written by her:

We all know that being a Mom is the hardest, most rewarding job on the face of this Earth.

"You don't love me!"

How many times have your kids laid that one on you?

And how many times have you, as a parent, resisted the urge to tell them how much?

Someday, when my children are old enough to understand the logic that motivates a mother, I'll tell them...

I loved you enough to bug you about where you were going, with whom and what time you would get home.

I loved you enough to insist you buy a bike with your own money, which we could afford, and you couldn't.

I loved you enough to be silent and let you discover your hand picked friend was a creep.

I loved you enough to stand over you for two hours while you cleaned your bedroom, a job that would have taken me 15 minutes.

I loved you enough to say, "Yes, you can go to Disney World on Mother's Day."

I loved you enough to let you see anger, disappointment, disgust, and tears in my eyes.

I loved you enough not to make excuses for your lack of respect or your bad manners.

I loved you enough to admit that I was wrong and ask for your forgiveness.

I loved you enough to ignore "what every other mother" did or said.

I loved you enough to let you stumble, fall, hurt, and fail.

I loved you enough to let you assume the responsibility for your own actions, at 6, 10, or 16.

I loved you enough to figure you would lie about the party being chaperoned, but forgave you for it...after discovering I was right.

I loved you enough to shove you off my lap, let go of your hand, be mute to your pleas and insensitive to your demands...so that you had to stand alone.

I loved you enough to accept you for what you are, and not what I wanted you to be.

But most of all, I loved you enough to say no when you hated me for it. That was the hardest part of all.


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## 827Aug

Thanks for sharing Emma Bombeck's wisdom on the subject. Being a mother can definitely be a thankless job at times. It's hard enough under normal situations. But, having "Peter Pan" in the picture really complicates the job.


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## 827Aug

Well, things just don't seem to get any better. My divorce lawyer has been trying to get a court date set for over a month now. However, my estranged husband's lawyer isn't being cooperative. My guess is that the estranged husband hasn't paid his own attorney. That's a strong possibility since he hasn't paid anyone else. Heck I can't even use my answering machine because it stays packed full of messages from angry people wanting money.

Apparently the national level lawsuit is getting dropped too. This darling man didn't pay the contract lawyer. Oh, he said he did. But, he lied once again. No big surprise there either.

I was talking to one of the estranged husband's colleagues a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, he lied to him about some things too. And I had to go make things right with him--another very long story. Anyway, he thinks my estranged husband has lost his mind. He told me he heard he is also probably going to be losing his professional license in this state. One of my brother's sources is saying the same thing too. That's definitely not going to help my case.

So, we've got all of this and *more* going on.....Then, I find out good ole Santa Clause is giving one of our daughters money on her debit card. She wanted some more clothes. She has plenty! But, I wasn't to find out about this latest maneuver either. Even so, all of them had their phones turned off this past week because dear ole dad didn't pay the phone bill again.

I just don't see how anyone can be so irresponsible. The estranged husband's colleague feels that he will be doing some time in jail--and only then will he face reality. I honestly wish it would happen soon! I'm so tired of being the responsible "non-fun" parent. Thanks for allowing me to vent everyone.


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## swedish

Wow, 827Aug. I am sorry to hear this keeps getting dragged out for you. For what it's worth, sounds like Santa won't be able to pull this off forever.


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## 827Aug

I wish! lol My daughters spent the weekend with their dad. As predicted, they returned with a lot of loot--clothes, shoes, purses, etc. However, not a dime was sent for gas money, car insurance, or lunch money. My nose pretty much got rubbed in the fact that dad provides all of the great stuff in life--again.

I did hear from my attorney on Friday. Apparently the hold up on the hearing for temporary spousal support and other issues is due to my estranged husband. My estranged husband's lawyer said he's had no communication with him in over two months--he isn't even returning phone calls. At this point my estranged husband will be subpoenaed to appear. If he doesn't appear, then he will be in contempt of court. My brothers are just glad I'm finally angry enough to do something with him. However, all of this will probably further distance my children from me. It has been a tough balancing act.


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## turnera

827, I wasn't sure about this until now, but I've got to say that I'm about 95% sure that the way you are raising your daughters is missing a very important element: RESPECT.

I may be off, but it sounds to me like you feel guilty and thus let them do and feel and think what they want, and don't call them out on it. I see lots of divorced mothers doing that. 

Do you know what happens? The daughters lose respect for their mothers and grow to resent them. And become even MORE disrespectful.

Seriously, IMO it's time for you to say to your girls: "I am busting my butt to take care of you while your dad gets to play Disney Dad. Now, I don't care what he buys you out of guilt; more power to him, and great for you. But I DO care about the growing air of disrepect the two of you are showing me. I will NOT accept it my MY house while you two are living with me. If he's so great, you're welcome to go live with him and let HIM pay for all your school and medical and activities. But if you stay here with me, you WILL stop disrespecting me. Failure to do so is going to result in loss of privileges or worse. Do we have an understanding?"

You might be surprised at the change.


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## 827Aug

tunera, you are correct--RESPECT is missing in my house. Well, one daughter is respectful. However, the other daughter does manipulate her to some degree. I've never had any respect in my house to be honest. Part of the problem is that the estranged husband has convinced me that the children are "afraid" of me. So in essence I am now afraid to do or say anything to them. And that's part of the damage he has done--something the therapist and I work on. 

My mother and therapist now think I should just tell them to go live with their dad. I may not have any choice soon anyway. The bank will begin foreclosure on this house in December, so I'll have to take refuge with a family member.


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## turnera

They are your CHILDREN, not your friends. It's your job to make them do what they need to do, in order to produce healthy, happy adults. By being afraid of pissing them off, all you are doing is creating future adults who only know how to abuse and manipulate people.

Why on earth are you afraid? You have NOTHING to be afraid of. Are you afraid they won't 'like' you? Here's a big news flash: teenage girls are not SUPPOSED to like their mothers - it's how they move on and out as young adults. This is the period when they start having issues. Expect it. Deal with it.

And set some freakin' rules in your house about respect!


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## 827Aug

Well, I value everyone's opinion. However, I'm not comfortable going into the details of this aspect of my life on a public forum. I do follow my therapist guidance in this area. Right now I'm more interested in getting Santa Dad out of my life, so that I can have a life with my children.


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## turnera

Fine. You don't want to hear this. At least do some research into parenting teenagers. Educate yourself on the most effective ways to bring up teenage girls, especially in divided families. What I'm telling you is exactly what you will read. Maybe if you hear it from the 'experts,' you'll be emboldened to do what is necessary. Good luck.


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## 827Aug

Well, I do believe the playing field is now level. I just returned from court, and the judge was very generous. He basically awarded me half of the estranged husband's pay check. Both the divorce attorney and my therapist think things will improve drastically where the two girls are concerned. Dear ole dad now won't have the money to "buy" them off. It makes both of us equals in the financial arena.


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## turnera

Glad to hear it. It's what he would have been spending to support them, anyway.


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## 827Aug

Well, I should have guessed that wouldn't work either. Dear old Sugar Daddy has completely disregarded the judge's orders. The court order has only been in place two months. Yet, "Dad" is now behind on alimony (which includes child support) by $6,0000.

The divorce lawyer is going to start "contempt of court" paperwork this week. I've been communicating with the therapist how best to minimize the trauma for my daughters. Most likely "Dad" is going to be doing some jail time before this gets resolved. But, in the meantime I have started another tactic (approved by the therapist). Every time my daughters want money for something, I simply tell them I don't have the money. I tell them as soon as "Dad" sends some money I will give them money for "x". But, until then what little money I have must go for food and utilities. Has anyone else had a similar experience--especially when teenagers are involved?


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## turnera

All I know is I was on the receiving end of it. My dad was supposed to pay $100 (yep!) a month for me, back in the 70s. He did pay the $100, as far as I know, but my mom and I survived on lots of pasta and beans. I was laughed at in high school cos I had to wear charity clothes from mom's friends. And I hated my dad for it. He was a freakin' engineer at NASA, and he couldn't afford to buy me a single pair of shoes after he left. And I've hated him for it all my life.


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## 827Aug

turnera, that's really awful your father did that. How old were you when he left? I certainly don't want my children to suffer like that. My estranged husband goes in the other direction. He doesn't care if our children have a roof over their heads or food. He is more interested that they eat out with him, take trips, and enjoy life. In other words, he is winning favor with them. Fortunately, the judge is on to this problem. I think that's why he split his salary equally with me--to have equal footing. Do you think you would have had better feelings had your dad spoiled you--but still did not provide you with the necessities?


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## turnera

I probably would have had better feelings if he had spoiled me, sad to say. He left when I was 12. My brother, 3 years older, took on the role of father, which my father was only too happy to let go of. When I turned 16, his new wife got him to tell me that if I wanted to see him any more, I could come see HIM, since I was now driving.

You can imagine how screwed up I became. When I got married at 21, he couldn't even help me with my $500 dress. It was just all too much work for him.


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## 827Aug

Wow. Your father sounds like a sorry individual. My estranged husband takes his parenting skills in an entirely different direction in that respect.


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## toughparentomaha

Reading these posts is giving me some hope. I am a single parent, as is my boyfriend. My relationship with my ex is civil and we have both gotten on the same page about our son over the years.

My boyfriend, unfortunately, is dealing with what you all go through. His ex has taken my boyfriend to Court 4 times in the last 12 months to claim that his inability to pay off the marital debt as fast as she wants is causing her financial difficulty, 

But, every time, after a Court hearing, she goes out and buys expensive stuff for the kids. Last year they each got smartphones (Droid and iPhone). Last night, she purchased all 3kids iPads. Each got their own. Yet, she constantly complains that she can't afford to help get the oldest car fixed from an accident he had, or buy the kids clothes, or struggles to pay her bills. 

We struggle paycheck to paycheck. The only reason we were able to spend a little money on the kids for Christmas (and all got practical gifts like beds, car emergency kits, clothes, etc) is because I had extra money in my check from working overtime. we have to replace our furnace before next winter and only have 2 working burners on our stove.

My boyfriend wants to be able to give his children the best in life, as do I, but I also firmly believe that we need to teach our kids that most people have nice things because they've worked hard for them. I don't have a phone, car and home because I sat on my butt and let someone else take care of me - I've worked very hard for a lot of years to get what little I have.

It's frustrating!!!


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## 827Aug

Toughparenttomaha, it does sound as though you and your boyfriend are in a tough spot. You may want to start a new thread and post your situation in more detail. I'm sure our community can offer you support and encouragement.

It seems as though some things never change or improve--unfortunately. Sometimes it's the mindset which must change to cope. For my own well-being I finally had to quit "caring" so darn much.


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## turnera

How old are his kids?


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## Bobby5000

You can tell him you are happy to have a reasonable discussion about how money is spent, priorities, etc. However, you need to tell him he will have to pay child support, or you will take appropriate action. Do NOT involve your children in any of the legal issues, and do not ask for their advice. 

You two seemed to have a strange relationship where his childlike behavior compelled you to become more serious and mature, and make him less adult-like.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

I don't know. I stuck to high-quality mental and emotional health at my home and my kids seem to really like it here. They do have 'fun' with their dads but mom is always mom, and the go-to person for personal issues and for basic togetherness. I think it is delivery of these 'services' that actually allows them to go off to dad's house to live it up, so to speak. They do know the difference, and I don't try to compete, we have different things we do here and it is more nuts and bolts and trying to have the kids develop as their own persons. They do talk about issues with their dads and I try to give them tips on relationship building and coping. I try to improve their impact on their dads, how to communicate their needs so that over time, their dads might focus less on fun/competing and more on together time...but guys really do, GENERALLY speaking, have more active relationships than women (GENERALLY speaking) and so it's sort of expected that this would also play out in their relationship with their kids. 

My son loves art and I had him write his own scholarship application for art classes. Their dad also supports 1/2 of their gymnastics and dance, and has the responsibility most weeks of taking them there. 1/2 of their week at summer camp. I applied for a campership for them for some of my 1/2. I get creative about how to provide my 1/2 of what they want to do. My daughter loves clothes...her teacher gave her a whole bunch of them...not sure where they came from! I volunteer a lot and so there are always perks like being able to go to an Indian Pow-Wow, free skiing, free movies, etc. Because I work from home, I'm also able to organize play dates for them, take them to places they enjoy going, make their favorite food, etc. Sometimes it doesn't take $, kids like to be 'spoiled' by being truly listened to and having some of their more basic 'dreams' come true, and finding out that these dreams really aren't so far 'out there' to begin with. I like to get my kids to the point where they 'own' their own dreams.

I'm a Quaker, so I really do stick by my values these days regarding use of funds. I used to try to be more lenient and flexible, but it generally led to trouble, so I learned that I shouldn't waffle on some stuff.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

turnera said:


> All I know is I was on the receiving end of it. My dad was supposed to pay $100 (yep!) a month for me, back in the 70s. He did pay the $100, as far as I know, but my mom and I survived on lots of pasta and beans. I was laughed at in high school cos I had to wear charity clothes from mom's friends. And I hated my dad for it. He was a freakin' engineer at NASA, and he couldn't afford to buy me a single pair of shoes after he left. And I've hated him for it all my life.


I'm sorry.
When I was in high school I got $25 a month from my dad directly for my support. I worked at a grocery store and so could stretch it, also my mom's landlord would take me out once in a while to a diner for a blue plate special and ask me to tell people I was his niece (for propriety, and there was propriety, but we made a white lie so we wouldn't creep any one else out...). I wore basically two sets of clothes but then got a lot of baby sitting jobs and was able to eat there plus learned how to sew. But nobody laughed at me! IMO, people shouldn't judge a kid on their circumstances. Actually, nobody should be judged based on their circumstances. 

I bet your health is pretty good now from not eating junk food but pasta and beans! 

I still wear charity clothes. Some of my nicest dresses were $8, $20, $22 at a thrift store that supports charity. People who donate these dresses know that some of us out in the community who can't afford new, will buy them. AND they keep their mouths shut if that was their dress, UNLESS they are telling you how nice it looks on you, and so-and-so never filled it out quite that way. :rofl:

IMO, money is neutral. You can have quite a bit of it and still not be very well off, and live in fear of losing what you have. You can have very little of it, and still have the things you need, especially if you can not panic and really think about what it is you need, and how you will get it in a wholistic way...and maybe you will even get more than you bargained for - and it will be good!

I really wanted to go to 'camp' this summer. Of course, I'll camp with my friends, but like summer camp. Well, the camp that gave my kids a campership in part, wants volunteers for a weekend work camp. Guess who's going to sign up!?


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## 827Aug

UPDATE

After almost two years of feeling lower than low, and feeling like the inferior parent, the tables have finally turned. Just two years ago I would never have believed the latest events. Many of you, family, and friends kept telling me that my daughters would embrace me as a great parent when they became adults. Well, yesterday was the day.

One of my daughters had been very moody and angry for months. I also noticed that both daughters quit going to visit their dad. After some coaxing, my daughter finally told me what was really bothering her. Apparently she and her sister now see what a complete jerk their dad really is. This particular daughter had always been a "daddy's girl", so she feels so abandoned now. She is taking it very hard.

Sugar Daddy now lives with two women and a young child. Apparently he moved the second woman and child in sometime within the year. That essentially left our son and daughters with no place to stay when visiting. Here it is no one in that household works except for my estranged husband. The woman with the child doesn't even have a car. Daughter says the woman is a piece of trash and looks like a dope head. She has just now gotten custody of her young child (since she proved to the court she had a stable home life for him). Pleeezzz! She also has a 19 year old daughter with a baby that hangs out there most of the time too. Daughter says I wouldn't believe how their dad's place is a revolving door for the trashy people now. Although it's a gated community, she said she didn't feel safe even sleeping there. Mystery solved! No wonder he can't keep up his support payments.

He no longer buys a thing for our daughters. Instead he showers these two women and their children with expensive gifts. He's now the "fun parent" to someone else's children. Although I hate to see my children suffering, I'm glad they finally opened their eyes.


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## turnera

I'm sorry they had to witness it. My dad's betrayal is the deepest wound I've ever felt. I'm glad you're there for them, though.


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## unbelievable

I don't believe the non-fun parent finishes last. I've dealt with this frustration, too because I've always had to be the meanie with the rules. There is comfort in reliability, predictability, and in following someone of character. Sooner or later kids find themselves in trouble. Permissiveness and indifference frequently hang out together. A rock is hard, heavy, and sometimes uncomfortable, but it's also solid, safe, permanent, and reliable. My kids are grown now and they no longer have serious contact with their permissive, buddy-mother. The guy with the rules was also the guy who always had their back. Money and trinkets will never trump devotion for very long.


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## 827Aug

turnera said:


> I'm sorry they had to witness it. My dad's betrayal is the deepest wound I've ever felt. I'm glad you're there for them, though.


Yeah, I assured her I would always be there for her. And if I can't be there, she can always turned to my family. I think the money issue concerns her to a degree too. I've yet to recover enough to work at a regular job. Also, we are scheduled to lose our house next month. Reality has really jolted both girls hard. I never wanted them to see how ugly life can really get.


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## 827Aug

unbelievable said:


> I don't believe the non-fun parent finishes last. I've dealt with this frustration, too because I've always had to be the meanie with the rules. There is comfort in reliability, predictability, and in following someone of character. Sooner or later kids find themselves in trouble. Permissiveness and indifference frequently hang out together. A rock is hard, heavy, and sometimes uncomfortable, but it's also solid, safe, permanent, and reliable. My kids are grown now and they no longer have serious contact with their permissive, buddy-mother. The guy with the rules was also the guy who always had their back. Money and trinkets will never trump devotion for very long.


Glad your children opened their eyes too. It's really hard when the fun parent is winning for years on end though.


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## turnera

I'm so sorry about the house! What are you going to do?


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## 827Aug

I have until the 17th of June to come up with the money. We went to mediation; the bank wouldn't even discuss refinancing. They will swap a piece of land for the house, if I can get a lien removed. I'm bartering with that party now. My attorney cousin is telling me to file bankruptcy this week and drag things out a bit longer. If I don't run out of time, I have a couple of options left.

Worst case scenario is that we move across the road and live with my mother though.


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