# Not sure if we should try again?



## MarriedMom88 (Jul 25, 2013)

Nearly two years ago I left my husband for being abusive. He was sick (depression and anxiety) and took longer than he should have to get help. It was only when I said I was done and wanted to leave, after years of trying to get him to go to the doctor, that he decided to go, and even then called and harassed me/threatened. 

Two years later, he has slept with another woman and had the bachelor life, since I have our son with me, but says he wants us back. He lives in the UK and I moved back to the US. My son is fairly young so it didn't effect him moving so far away, and he gets to see his father a few times a year (on average, 3 - i have sole custody.) 

He says he has changed, and has never stopped trying to get us back together, but it would have to be over there which I am not sure if I am comfortable with seeing as though I have no support what-so-ever and am completely dependent on him as the house etc. is in his name. He guilts me saying he feels bad for our son and how he will be missing out and how we could have made things work etc. etc.

I have said I want a divorce multiple times and he has agreed then always pulls back and says things like he wishes I would think about it etc. and pushes the divorce back more and more. Sometimes we argue and he can be cruel, or sometimes he can be nice - but I wonder if its just to get us back. I remember the good times, but I also remember the bad - and they were horrific. 

I know people are capable of change, but I don't know if he has changed, and I am not comfortable putting myself out there to find out. I got out once, who knows if I'd be so lucky again. But I still feel guilty for our son and am not sure if I am making a mistake or not, if he has actually changed. 

He said he would move here but it would have to be after he knows we could work it out etc. but in the past said he would move to the US and never did - what he says and does are usually different. But I also know I can't live in the past. Its just a big risk, in my opinion.

I don't want my son to miss out on his father and mother together or have him brought up in an unhealthy environment if us together became a war-zone and feel like I can't get out again. I'm a good mom to my son and he is a very happy boy. I just don't want him to miss out.

Am I doing the right thing by wanting a divorce? Sometimes I miss the good times, and I feel sad and wish we could start over, but trying again wouldn't be a fresh start. And even with marriage counselling I feel as if too much has happened, been apart too long and we have changed from who we once were. 

I don't know what to do. And if I am doing the right thing by wanting the divorce, why do I feel so guilty?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MarriedMom88 said:


> I remember the good times, but I also remember the bad - and they were horrific.


MM, welcome to the TAM forum. When you say the bad times were "horrific," just what is it you are referring to? What form did the abuse take? I suggest that, before moving your son back to the UK, you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to find out what it is that you and your son have been dealing with. If your H has strong traits of a personality disorder, for example, there is very little chance he will improve substantially.

I also suggest you take a look at my description of BPD traits to see if most of them sound very familiar. It is in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you. Take care, MM.


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## MarriedMom88 (Jul 25, 2013)

he was diagnosed with depression and anxiety disorder, but has spoke about suicide a few times, how he had it all planned out etc. not sure if he said it to guilt me or not, but before i left he was physically abusive, mentally, emotionally. controlling. 

i couldn't look at someone without him getting angry, a cashier etc. or someone look at me. i remember for example once we were at a restaurant and he got angry a woman looked at me, the whole ride home he went on about how i must be a lesbian. i only had contact with my family through the internet and he would always think i am up to something on there, thought i cheated on him all the time, with the mail man, accused me of sleeping with his dad as if he wasn't the father of our son etc. it was ridiculous. 

i was a stay at home mom because at the time we were better off getting help from the government and me watching our son rather than paying for daycare, we would of been more out of pocket with the type of job i could get - so i would stay and clean the house and cook etc. and he would get angry i didn't work, said all the stress was on him. but he'd book holidays for himself to go away with his cousin or stuff non-family related which bothered me. 

he had this stare, a scary stare and i remember waking up and he'd be staring at me. used to say he could make me disappear etc. i ended up in a womens shelter before coming home. there were a lot of bad moments. i remember my son, only a year old, coming up holding my leg trying to be between us, wouldn't let him touch me because he saw how he acted. 

he kicked us out of the house in the rain, my son and i. punched walls and kicked down gates, pulled a knife on me etc. 

he says he was sick and now he is better, he is on medication now but i think hes better because he gets sleep now (our son still and has always been a bad sleeper, and sleeps with me in bed.) and because he has no drama. he didn't take care of our son at all, even when i had to shower it was the end of the world if he had to watch him for 5 minutes and he'd cry for me the whole time. he has never hurt our son, but still - i don't think he tells his doctor all how he feels (but he claims he feels suicidal because we are over here and he misses our son.)

but that also makes me think the only reason he wants to be with me is to be near our son, what would stop him from getting that way again? i think disorders run in his family, his uncle has had 2 breakdowns, bad ones where he was institutionalized. drinking doesn't help, or stress and right now he is stress free. 

if i stick up for myself he says i am moaning at him and there's only so much i can take. 

wow, listing all that stuff made me feel a whole lot less guilty. 

i don't think hes bipolar, i am just not sure whats wrong with him. he used to tell me to go away because he felt he was going to kill someone and he didn't want it to be me. he says he was sick and is better now but who really knows? 

we used to not be able to leave the house without him thinking people were always talking about him or looking at him etc. hes paranoid. its just stressful and my son and i are happy over here. but he has this way of making me feel guilty, and like if i just gave him the chance everything would be great again.

but my son and i are happy where we are, and he comes with his mother for supervised visits 2-3 times a year and brings our son to disney land etc. and its quality time together, whereas when we lived together he'd go in the room, shut the door and if our son cried for him.. he'd get angry. he took us for granted, said we ruined his life, then said he regrets it now. 

but i am a good mom and my little boy is the best thing thats ever happened to me, and to feel i am making him miss out on something hurts me. like i said, hes happy here. i don't know why i feel guilty about it sometimes. i guess my husband knows how to get to me.


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## Spinner (Jul 26, 2013)

My god... I would have fled the country too! I can't believe you're even considering getting back together with him! For the safety of you and your child, run the other way! Even if he is a wonderful father and husband on his medication, what if he decides he doesn't need it anymore? My advice is if you're happy enough being apart from him, keep it that way. Don't let him guilt you into putting yourself back into a bad situation.


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## MarriedMom88 (Jul 25, 2013)

When I think about pros and cons, I don't want to be with him. But I also don't want to hurt him. And he claims I string him along, but I have been saying get a divorce, its not going to work, its been too long, we don't get along etc. for a long time and he always says okay I will get a divorce and won't mention it again then turns around and says I think you should think about things, when we are good we're great. Usually when he drinks he gets emotional and calls up crying etc. usually guilts me just about every single day and it is tiring to deal with. I tell him not to call unless its regarding our son and he just doesn't listen. He makes me feel like its my fault, but I'm not stringing him along, I wouldn't do that - he is stringing himself along and it just makes me feel bad.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

NO. DONT DO IT. Do not go back to this abuser. Its time to stop talking about how you want a divorce and just FILE. Quit discussing it, he can obviously easily manipulate you. You dont need his permission to divorce him.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

My brother died of schizophrenia. My father was a psychiatrist and made me work in his office when I was a teen. Mental illness I have seen. Since you have already gotten away from him your choice is clearer. End the marriage, unless you are prepared to live a life of uncertainty. Tragedy is one very real possibility.

Ask yourself honestly what might be broken inside of you that caused you to be attracted to him. Perhaps you did not see what was coming. But perhaps you did and were drawn to it.

Once you are divorced there is nothing to stop you from taking some holiday in the UK so that your child can see more of him. This assumes he functioning. No drinking while with your son is a condition.

What sort of life do you have in the US. Can you work? Study? Are you exercising? Eating right? Are you isolated? What does your family do to help you?

Here is a song for you.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

You have some pretty strong reservations there, that you are considering setting aside because you feel guilty that your son is not in a two parent home (though you admit that he was too young to be much disturbed by the change), because your husband claims that he has changed, and because you are uncertain whether asking for a divorce is something that is the right thing to do.

I want you to stop and think about the reasons why you are entertaining the possibility of reconciliation, mainly because it sounds like this relationship has not met your own standards of fix-ability, yet. You should not discount your intuitive sense of what is going on, here. 

Horrific is a strong word. He has treated you and your son badly, he has taken off to see if the grass is greener on the other side, and now, having discovered that it isn't, he wants you back. However, he only wants you back on his terms, living on his home field and in his world, willing only to think about the possibility of coming to you if you give him certain guarantees or assurances. You're not back together yet and he is already controlling the dynamics under which he expects you to grant his wish, without any consideration of whether or not you want to, whether or not this would be a good idea, or whether or not this would have a different outcome. Additionally, this is not a response to hitting rock bottom or realizing that he has lost you, but a response to things not being what he expected. 

If you go back to him now, in this circumstance or situation, abandoning your newly established life in order to make a new one with him, you reward him for his behavior and you also demonstrate that what he is now offering you is good enough for you to erase everything you have made for yourself because the happiness his presence can provide you is greater; he will expect you to erase yourself over and over again and he will tell you that it is a privilege for you to do so, as evidenced by the fact that you took him up on his offer when there was no apparent benefit to you or your son. Having an abusive father around is worse than having no father. 

You have mentioned physical abuse. That means that he has crossed the line beyond equality, beyond pushy behavior, beyond passive aggression, beyond intimidation, beyond control, beyond manipulation, and properly and wholly into physical abuse; once that line is crossed, a new threshold is established and it is difficult for "normal" to be so many paces backward in the realm of respect. He has hit you and you have accepted it; for you to go back to him now, when he has not even realized the harm he has caused you, would be a bad idea. What if the horrific behavior extends onward to your son? It isn't "just" name calling or domination (which is quite bad already), but full on physical abuse. You have no reason at all to assume that it will not reach your son in these formative years or later when he is bored of the change and diversion you both have provided him and goes looking to create more drama. Your son will be older and this time, he will remember the damage and be damaged, in turn, just like you. 

If you have gotten to a point where things are horrific and you have got actual physical abuse and you have actually left him and started a new life as a result of that behavior (which was probably very difficult and brave of you to do), then you absolutely cannot go back -- at least not unless you see real, demonstrable, evident change (and I don't advocate that you do so, even still, if there has been physical abuse because the escalation is already apparent and it is coupled with threats which means it will continue to escalate). Given that he is already trying to control the conditions of a reconciliation that he is attempting to initiate and which you are already uncertain that you want to invite, he has NOT changed his ways.

You say, yourself, that your son is not bothered by not being in a two parent home and that he has a relationship with his father. This distance is probably the healthiest way for him to have a relationship with his father that does not devolve into abuse, in my opinion. Being far away means he only sees him sometimes; it is easy to be good and kind and fun and loving sometimes -- at least, it is easier than being so all the time, and, so, the chances that he will get to an abusive stage are possibly reduced. I have nothing to back that up except my own opinion, but, it's how I see the situation. Why disturb his entire life without reason? If your ex husband wanted to be in your life more, he could prove it. If he wanted to be in your son's life more, he could prove it. If he were repentant, he would try to meet you both on terms that didn't upset into chaos your lives just for his own convenience. You gain nothing for your son by doing this, so let this guilt go. You're actually doing better for your son by creating a safer environment in which he might actually learn from the few positives that your abusive ex demonstrates.

Your other reason is just that your ex is saying that he has changed. You have reservations because you don't see change. Your intuition is telling you that this isn't what it seems. His word and his actions haven't proven their alliance yet, to you. So, the part of you that said "get the heck out of this marriage" is still trying to protect you. Don't ignore your voice just because his voice is more assertive. He says, "I've changed". Your voice says, "I doubt that very much." But the part of you that's making the decision isn't your voice but the part of you that wants to give the benefit of the doubt and that is more receptive to his voice than your own; that part of you is unhealthy because it is giving him the power to make decisions in your life, people pleasing, hoping, etc -- being rooted in nostalgia and hope for goodness doesn't make it a good mediator for this discussion. That voice needs to be reminded that he abused you and you left him. That voice needs to be told that it can't listen to your ex's voice unless the platform is the right one -- and, it isn't. No change is apparent.

You are wondering if it's the right thing to do. That's a part of you that's permission seeking. You need only ask yourself for the permission to grant your own needs and thoughts priority. By choosing NOT to upset your whole life and move yourself and son to a new country where you will have no support to live with a man that you do not trust who has actually treated you badly and dangerously in the past, you are not denying your ex anything except the right to demand what he wants on his own terms -- and that isn't something you should be giving an abuser (or, ex-abuser if his claims of change are true) anyway because it is power that isn't equal and he will be tempted to abuse it again. You have to be strong enough to stand as an equal, to say, "my opinion matters as much as yours does"; your uncertainty about the situation almost seems to be saying "do I have the right to go by my own needs instead of his?" And, to that question, I say, "Yes, absolutely. Do not deny your needs and understanding for someone who has not proven worthy of the sacrifice. Privilege will only corrupt a person further."

It was hard for you to leave him, but you did. You have no reason to go back to him now except his wish that you do so. You have no reason to believe it would be different this time and you have a feeling that it could be worse; I say this because you mention that you have no support or resources there and that means you are wary enough to realize that you will need support if things go wrong again. You would be dependent upon him. You see, already, that he is being controlling; nothing has changed.

Now, if there is a part of you that wonders if he has changed and wants to know, then consider testing him on your own ground instead of on his. Let him talk to you and to your son on a regular basis; let him show you that he is in some kind of anger management therapy; let him show you that this is not just a passing fancy; and let yourself have time to evaluate his behavior with regard to you both. I do not think that you should go back to him. I do think that if you are afraid of these doubts, that you should look at his actions. I also think that if you want a divorce, then you should ask for one and not worry that you will need his permission for it. Trust me, that will be hard enough to go through without hoping to seek his permission in addition to the rest. 

You left. Trust the person who made that choice. Get into a counseling program or see a therapist if you have not done so. If you are even considering making this decision, give yourself at least 3 months of therapy first, before making a decision. Someone who has been physically violent and who is making threats and who is so controlling that he accuses you of being involved with others just because someone else is looking at you (that's not even you looking at someone, that's describing behavior that you have no control over) is very, very likely to escalate that behavior into harm against you and against your son. Don't go back to that. Save your son from it, if you have no concern for yourself or no fear for yourself. You deserve better than to be abused. Stay away.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

I just read your second post, this one I'm quoting, and my advice -- DO NOT GO BACK -- just became an emphatic enough feeling that I wanted to type it in all caps.

Look at these things you've mentioned here:



MarriedMom88 said:


> he was physically abusive, mentally, emotionally. controlling.
> 
> i couldn't look at someone without him getting angry,
> 
> ...


These things are indications that you are in danger and that your son is, too. Especially disturbing is the scary stare and those creepy statements. (I know what that one is like.) It's a sign that something is not right with your ex, a sign that he is not to be trusted. He is letting you know with his actions that you are not safe with him. If your ex cared about you, he would probably couple those moments with, "no, you shouldn't trust anyone, not even me" (which is something I understand, too; my husband wasn't physically abusive, but he was a master at intimidation, for which he'd later apologize; you don't mention any apologies or gifts of penance or anything).



MarriedMom88 said:


> he says he was sick and now he is better, he is on medication now but i think hes better because he gets sleep now (our son still and has always been a bad sleeper, and sleeps with me in bed.) and because he has no drama.


That kind of behavior doesn't go away without serious therapy, if at all. It isn't possible that he is just magically better now, medication or not. His lack of drama helps him be steady and better? What happens when the stress of family life makes drama appear? He will go back to being sick, again.



MarriedMom88 said:


> he didn't take care of our son at all, even when i had to shower it was the end of the world if he had to watch him for 5 minutes and he'd cry for me the whole time. he has never hurt our son, but still - i don't think he tells his doctor all how he feels (but he claims he feels suicidal because we are over here and he misses our son.)


Those are excuses he makes so that he doesn't have to own his own behavior and correct it. Bad sign. Plus, if one of the reasons you have to consider his request is that he might be near his son, consider how your son's life will be affected by a man who can't be bothered to care for him. What if you die and your son is left with this neglectful father; would your son survive?



MarriedMom88 said:


> i think disorders run in his family, his uncle has had 2 breakdowns, bad ones where he was institutionalized. drinking doesn't help, or stress and right now he is stress free.


Well, when stress enters the picture -- as it must with family life -- this other image will become more familiar to you. Consider that, carefully.




MarriedMom88 said:


> if i stick up for myself he says i am moaning at him and there's only so much i can take.


He can't tolerate you sticking up for yourself. Hmm. Well, if there's only so much he can take, then don't poke the bear. Leave him across the pond. What happens when you don't want to be submissive, silent, and punching-bag-like -- what happens when his tolerance runs out? 





MarriedMom88 said:


> he used to tell me to go away because he felt he was going to kill someone and he didn't want it to be me. he says he was sick and is better now but who really knows?


He is straight-up telling you that you cannot trust him. Believe him when he says that. I understand this kind of statement, too; he is showing you something of his real self, the self that he is contending with every day and that might just poke through the neat candy coating when stress fractures weaken it. This is not something that just "gets better". He hasn't shown that he has done anything to change it.




MarriedMom88 said:


> we used to not be able to leave the house without him thinking people were always talking about him or looking at him etc. hes paranoid. its just stressful and my son and i are happy over here. but he has this way of making me feel guilty, and like if i just gave him the chance everything would be great again.


Paranoia like this is very dangerous. How long before you are no longer on his side? How long before he turns the tables and believes you are among those who have plotted his downfall; the homicidal rage that will result will terrify you, especially because you haven't done anything to deserve it.

He is hoping that if he can get you to believe that this chance would redeem him, that it will. It won't. You believing in his being better will not make him better. When you and your son arrive, and he is not magically better, not only will this stuff all return, but it will magnify because he will resent you for not making it all go away with your presence and you will get a lot more of this darkness directed toward you. It will get way worse than before and it will do so really fast.



MarriedMom88 said:


> but my son and i are happy where we are, and he comes with his mother for supervised visits 2-3 times a year and brings our son to disney land etc. and its quality time together, whereas when we lived together he'd go in the room, shut the door and if our son cried for him.. he'd get angry. he took us for granted, said we ruined his life, then said he regrets it now.


Well, which do you think there will be more of, if you guys go back? The disneyland fun or the crying and anger?

If you think he regrets it and wants more time to be a better father, maybe you guys can work out a plan for twice as many visits in a year (still supervised). 



MarriedMom88 said:


> but i am a good mom and my little boy is the best thing thats ever happened to me, and to feel i am making him miss out on something hurts me. like i said, hes happy here. i don't know why i feel guilty about it sometimes. i guess my husband knows how to get to me.


You are NOT making him miss out on anything. The thing you think he will be missing out on will NOT be found if you go back. Instead, you will be taking away this good experience and replacing it with one that endangers you and your son. 

Of course he knows how to get to you, he has had time to practice and prepare and he is on the offense; you've defending yourself and also trying to figure things out while he has got it figured out and is acting on it for his benefit. That voice in you that is acknowledging both good and bad knows that a magical transformation by pill or by absence is not possible. No pill can transform him. No absence can snap him out of it. Has he even realized the extent of his bad behavior?

Having read this second post, having noted the sections that most troubled me, I want to say to you that you would be making a very big mistake by going back to him. Let him go through this low feeling without using you and your son as a crutch; going back would enable him to get distracted and not deal with the issues he's facing in therapy. Let him go through this sad and awful feeling he is having because if he gets through it and comes out on the other side, there is a chance that he will start breaking the bad habits, but that chance will be taken away if you go now and enable his weakness and it will also endanger you and your son.

Please be strong. File for divorce if you want one. Stay separated if you prefer. But be very careful. I wouldn't trust a man who is staring at you in a scary intense way and commenting that he could make you disappear and doing so while you're not really listening; you're not the audience for that revelation, he himself is the audience and he is realizing that he is capable of causing you harm and death -- how long before your son wakes up the object of that intimidation glare?

Tell your husband that you two moving back is not happening. Tell him to go through the dark feelings and get his act together. Tell him that what you can offer is the opportunity for more visits and maybe some supervised phone calls or skype chats. Tell him to stay in therapy and tell yourself to do so, as well (trust me, it helps). And do NOT go back to the very real likelihood of fatal violence.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Oh, also. If you care about him, that's okay. You can continue to care about him and even love him -- just do it from afar. You don't want to be destroyed by standing too close. Feelings and actions are not the same thing. You can feel whatever you feel, but when you make decisions, make them based on logic and rational thought so that those actions can be directed in a way that feelings, naturally, cannot.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

He pulled a knife on you. End of discussion.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Three votes to zero for staying away from him.


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