# So now I have evidence of EA, next?



## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

Next is the confrontation. At this point, am I simply making a request, or rather, demand that all contact be terminated?

I'm guessing that it isn't going to be that simple...I'm almost positive further measures will have to be taken, so at this point I should not be saying anything along the lines of "or else I'm leaving."

I just feel like that is an empty demand... "I want you to stop seeing/contacting this other person."

I feel like she will be thinking "or what?" To which I am not ready to say "or else I'm leaving." 

How can this demand hold any weight?

Before I had definite evidence, I did have some major red flags to create suspicion. I have posted that already. At that point I essentially did confront my wife asking how I am supposed to trust her being friends with another man when all of these things look bad? I do have a lot of reasons to believe she did in fact simply want a friendship with this other man, but clearly the other man is interested in more. So because I did have a lot of reason to believe that and I had no definite evidence I simply requested her honesty with me and to think about what situation she is putting herself into, whether it was appropriate or not.

It is now at that unacceptable level and now I am going to put my foot down.

Any other insight/advice?


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Honestly, I if she says "or what?" I would tell HER to leave. She is the one being inappropriate. BUT definately wait for someone who has more insight into this type of stuff than I do. Best of luck to you though and I would definately start thinking about what if you have to seperate banking accounts, just in case.


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

I feel like I would rather tell her "or I'll leave" because I feel like she would just go over to his place because I don't know where else she would go. We live in an apartment so it isn't like I'm leaving an asset (if you are thinking about strategy in case of a divorce)

She also makes slightly more money than me so it's not like I am supporting any kind of affair either...there haven't been any unusual expenses


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

I keep hoping affaircare of turnera come in to give you some better insight, and I bet one of them will be in here soon. Do you have a plan of what you are going to say? I got that you want to tell her that all contact has to stop. What about telling her that " all contact has to stop between you and _____. Then we are need to fill out these questionnaires from marriage builders and see a counselor. " Would that be something you would see as reasonable and acceptable??


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## makaveli (Jul 8, 2010)

I just went through the same thing and maybe a little more but I don't know your whole story. The real question is...do you love her enough to want to work through this...if you do then you have a rough road ahead of you but any marriage/relationship can work through anything. What I did (not suggesting you do) was gave her a ultimatum. I told her it's either this other guy or me and I was dead serious and told her what is going to happen if I leave her. It's hard to deal with something like this because they get an emotional attatchment to this other person and it's like that feeling when you two first met...it's exciting to talk to this other person because it's something new. If you have concrete evidence then confront her about it and let her know she is caught. She might get mad..which is the common behavior..but stand your ground. If she truely loves you then she should be able to drop this friend no matter what. There is no reason your woman should be going to another man for companionship...that's what you are there for. Something that you will have to prepare yourself with is that she might continue to try and find different ways to contact this guy. If that happens then take it to the next level and contact her family or someone that has influence on her and tell them what is going on. They might try talking some sense into her or maybe she will be embarassed for herself. I got sneaky and checked phone bills, set up digital voice recorders in the house and her car (which I found out more then I wanted to find out by doing that), and just checking up on her every once in a while. The thing that is most important in your relationship is trust and if it's broken then it's hard to get back. So if she is willing to work with you after she is caught, she is the one that will have to be at your mercy. She needs to be able to let you look through her phone/emails whenever you want. There should be no secrets because secrets just continue to prevent trust from coming back. Like I said, you have a long road ahead of you and I hope I helped. Good luck bud and remember no one deserves to be going through this no matter what!


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

Let me first say that last night I confronted her that I knew according to call logs that she was up late at night talking to him, she said he calls her. I have been reading her texts, which is where the evidence comes from. There has been a lot of flirting but the final straw was this exchange after a late night conversation

him: "Keep toying with that idea!"

her: "It was a fun thought but I should go to bed... There is no way I will make it til 530!" (He was driving back late from out of town)

him:"prolly closer to 445"

her: "wow you must be driving way over the speed limit  sorry if I excited you for nothing"

him: "no traffic in chi"

her: "uh huh. Well you probably will want to go to bed when you get back anyways."

him: "nope... "

her: "it is thoughts like that that will get me in trouble one of these days... I should go to bed"

So this is the script I kind of built last night trying to fall asleep (writing this out will help me prepare for d-day, tonight, so there may be some more details in it than anyone here understands...):

"I have an idea to solve some of our issues, I would like you to show me your text exchanges with Brandon." (this would be to 'alleviate my suspicions')

She is surely going to refuse.

"That only further confirms what I'm about to say. I have evidence that your relationship with Brandon has become inappropriate. I extended you a tremendous amount of trust in letting you maintain a friendship with another man. You have lied to me, omitted information, and have completely broken my trust. Given what your relationship has become, you are going to completely break off all contact with him. You had my trust, and you ruined it. We cannot work on our marriage with Brandon in the picture, and I can no longer trust you to have any interaction with him. I think our relationship has greatly improved since you opened up to me about what was wrong. I am working very hard on this relationship by giving you more freedom and space, but you are using that space to spend time with Brandon. You have even been pushing away your own friends to choose to spend time with him as well."

more? less?


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

I don't know if I would start placing blame right at that point. I would just take out that one sentence. And finish with " whatever needs you are getting met by him I want to meet for you".


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

makaveli said:


> I just went through the same thing and maybe a little more but I don't know your whole story. The real question is...do you love her enough to want to work through this...if you do then you have a rough road ahead of you but any marriage/relationship can work through anything.
> 
> I definitely want our marriage to work. The hardest part of all of this was for the 4 years before we got married, it was a nearly perfect relationship, pure bliss. Then we got married, the next six months I could definitely feel her disconnecting. The last few months I've been dealing with this Brandon character and finally getting her to communicate the issues she has been having (which I have since been eliminating and our marriage has somewhat revitalized. The sick part is, I read in one of her texts, she feels like "our relationship (talking about me and her) has been getting better since we've (Brandon and her) been friends" So she is giving their friendship the credit for my work on improving myself and our marriage...
> 
> ...


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

DawnD said:


> I don't know if I would start placing blame right at that point. I would just take out that one sentence. And finish with " whatever needs you are getting met by him I want to meet for you".


Do you mean the "this is your fault line"? Rereading that, it doesn't sound like I intended it. I meant that the reason they can't be friends anymore is her fault, she crossed lines there.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

Right, but it will be too easy for her to mininterpret at that point. It is going to be a very emotional conversation. So if you can leave out any sentence using the word "fault" it would probably be better for now. Not saying you don't have to tell her she was being inappropriate, but just that one word probably will only make it worse right now.


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## jessi (Feb 11, 2009)

I think that you ask her for no contact with Brandon and then expose her to her family and friends and that you need their help in keeping her responsible to your marriage, asking for time apart to find herself is just her affair babble to have free time to communicate with Brandon.....I think what she is doing is not appropriate in a marriage and it certainly in not respecting or loving you. Is it?
Tell her you love her and want to work things out so both of you are happy......
Tell you can do this with a 3 person in your relationship.......
Don't move out, let her feel all the brunt of her decisions.....
Stand your ground, tell her you understand if this is the path she wants to take and move on with the OM......
Then you will know at least if she goes what the OM intent really is, he may run when he thinks he has to fill her every need now....
Don't do any blaming, don't take on any blame yourself, stick to the facts and the expectations for now, see where her head is at.
Remember everything she says is Fog Babble and it is all based on lies and cheating and entitlement......
Follow the Plan here and the advice from the vets, they have saved a few marriages from farther damage then your marriage.
Listen, Learn and follow their steps on recovering your marriage


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

MrRomantic~

Sorry I'm so late to the game. I'm just coming onto work and will be here in just a bit to answer more fully! I think about 1/2 hour and I'll write to you first, okay?


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

That would be great


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

MrRomantic said:


> Next is the confrontation. At this point, am I simply making a request, or rather, demand that all contact be terminated?
> 
> I'm guessing that it isn't going to be that simple...I'm almost positive further measures will have to be taken, so at this point I should not be saying anything along the lines of "or else I'm leaving."


Now that you've gathered enough evidence to prove to yourself that your sense that "something's not right" is trustworthy, the next step is indeed confrontation. This does not mean that you would be "confrontational" with your spouse but rather speak to her directly, face-to-face, alone and be clear and concise about it. The idea is this: give her a chance to know she's caught, you know, and you're asking her privately to stop doing what she knows is wrong and return to the marriage. This is her chance to keep it between you and her and do the right thing. 

So you don't argue, scream, invalidate or be confrontational. You just say something along the line of: "I have discovered proof that you and Brandon have crossed the line from friendship to emotional connection and flirting. This is not hearsay but I have seen it with my own eyes. When we married, we both made a promise to forsake all others and I know you have not forsaken all others for me. I do realize that there were many ways in which I extinguished love in our marriage and I do very much love you. I'm willing to work on our marriage and end those things I did that hurt you, and I'm asking you to join me in committing to making OUR relationship loving again. So tonight I come to you and ask that you end the adultery by ending all contact with Brandon, allowing me access to your online accounts so I can verify your honesty, and promising to working on our marriage with me."

Do you see how it's a STATEMENT (not so much a demand)? And do you see how you indicate that you know you contributed and you're willing to work on yourself to change it? But likewise you don't beg or use euphemisms--it IS adultery and you call it that. You also don't act weak, but rather you present it as if you are worth better, you know she can give you better, and ask for a re-commitment to doing better together!



> I just feel like that is an empty demand... "I want you to stop seeing/contacting this other person."
> 
> I feel like she will be thinking "or what?" To which I am not ready to say "or else I'm leaving."
> 
> How can this demand hold any weight?


Ah! Well see above. You aren't making a demand--that would be you attempting to control her. You are making a respectful request. Hey, any human, in the right conditions, can make a mistake--even one this big. Any human could be vulnerable to someone pursuing them, admiring them, appreciating them, and complimenting them especially when they aren't getting that at home and they ARE getting Love Extinguishers! So she made a mistake and you're approaching her with self-respect intact and respectfully asking her to stop doing what she knows is wrong (namely: cheating). She is completely free to decide to stop and it would be just between you and her, and you two could begin recovering--or she is completely free to decide to continue and experience the consequences of that choice. 

If you were to present it like "I want you to stop seeing this person" it would be as if you are the parent, she is the child, and you are controlling her. The natural response to that would be "Or what? You gonna make me?" So you present it as facts, you know she's cheating and have evidence, you know you made some mistakes that contributed to the vulnerability, you're willing to work to fix it...and then ASK HER TO DO SO ALSO. In addition, if it does become "...or what?" the teeth of the request is this: "You are on notice that I do intend to honor my vow to you. I will do everything in my power to end the affair and stand for this marriage. I will not just stand aside and make it easy for you to replace me with some other man. And I will not stand in the way and fix things for you but rather I WILL allow you to experience the natural consequences of your choice to continue to cheat."



> Before I had definite evidence, I did have some major red flags to create suspicion. I have posted that already. At that point I essentially did confront my wife asking how I am supposed to trust her being friends with another man when all of these things look bad? I do have a lot of reasons to believe she did in fact simply want a friendship with this other man, but clearly the other man is interested in more. So because I did have a lot of reason to believe that and I had no definite evidence I simply requested her honesty with me and to think about what situation she is putting herself into, whether it was appropriate or not.
> 
> It is now at that unacceptable level and now I am going to put my foot down.
> 
> Any other insight/advice?


Yes one more insight. Do not move out. I would suggest either staying at home or if anything, making her move out and here's why. Staying at home is best because in order to continue her affair, she would have to do so basically while you watch. Now I won't kid you--staying at home while your wife is cheating is NOT for the faint-hearted and it will be very hard to not yell and do other Love Extinguishers....but if you have the fortitude to stay, by your actions let her know that you will NOT make it easy for her to be unfaithful. On the other hand, if it becomes more blatant, if she wants to leave the marriage and go to someone else--you stay put and make her do all the packing and work. Allow her to experience the consequence of choosing to leave which means that SHE has to actually leave. She has to find another place (even if it is with the OM). Okay? Get it?

So stay if you can...if you can not, she is the one who leaves not you. Don't make this easy on her--if she is determined to have an affair, make cheating hard by being right there!


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

Thank you, very concise but packs a punch

We have always known eachothers passwords for all accounts. I have recently been monitoring these things without her knowledge...clearly my suspicions were correct. Should I even bring up saying that I will be monitoring her? Or continue to do so on my own?

By definition, is it really adultery if no sex has taken place? While i don't want to sugar coat it, I don't want to exaggerate it either.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

1) I wouldn't bring up that you were monitoring her nor necessarily bring up the exact evidence that you have. Just word it in such a way that you KNOW and you have proof--it's not just you being paranoid. Make sense? It is highly likely that she will say one of two things (or both): "You are making a mountain out of a molehill. You're crazy--you're paranoid" or "How DARE you snoop into my things and violate my privacy!" If you have showed her the evidence, she would likely then do what she can to cut off that method of snooping (like adding a password) and the privacy thing is just her way of trying to deflect the blame from HER adultery onto your rightful looking at your spouse's texts. 

2) Regarding whether it is or is not adultery since there hasn't been sex. First, I suspect there may be some cyber sexting going on or close to it...and second, my definition of fidelity does not involve swapping bodily fluids. Here my definition: What Is An Affair?. For the peanut gallery following along, here's the definition: _...being UN-faithful--having an affair--might rather accurately be defined as "acting in a way so that affection and loyalty are not committed and dedicated to a private person to whom loyalty is due; not adhering to promises (vows)."_ So you tell me, Mr. Romantic. Has she dedicated 100% of her affection and loyalty to YOU? Has she adhered to her vows to forsake ALL OTHERS? If not, then it is unfaithfulness, infidelity and cheating. Adultery may involve bodily fluids, but in this instance it surely is emotional adultery because adultery means "an unfaithful act committed against a marriage partner."


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Not sure if I'm right or wrong, but I tend to use the word "Unfaithful" to avoid the "I haven't slept with anyone" argument, because that's not exactly the point.

I tend to think Unfaithful is a strong enough word that covers a lot of territory.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Yep good point NiceGuy. "Unfaithful" "infidelity" "affair" and "cheating" can all tend to work that way...whereas usually "adultery" usually brings to mind sex. 

So yep--go with unfaithful or infidelity. That completely works because it's true.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I can't improve much. I would suggest that you explain to her just exactly what an Emotional Affair is. Many, many people don't 'see' it because nothing physical has happened. Explain to her that she has become dependent on contacting him to get thrills of some sort, that she is telling him things that she would NOT say in FRONT OF YOU, that she is HIDING this contact from you, and that men VERY OFTEN get into just such a situation so that they can get you into BED. Tell her you don't think she has any such plans, but you KNOW what guys think of. Tell her that his plan is most certainly to go physical with her; arm her with information on how to 'spot' Brandon working his way into her pants (that kind of conversation, asking for pictures, asking her for suggestive talk...).

I would also pay Brandon a visit, without telling her you are going to do it. A lot of times guys like him will run for the hills when the EA is at this stage, and the husband shows up.


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

turnera said:


> I would also pay Brandon a visit, without telling her you are going to do it. A lot of times guys like him will run for the hills when the EA is at this stage, and the husband shows up.



I definitely intend to after I make my request of my wife to cut contact.

I have met the guy before a couple of times actually. We all happen to work for the same company as a matter of fact. This won't be too big of an issue, she had no interaction at all with him work related. He actually works at a different location, but is sometimes at our location for meetings and arranges to stop by her office and see her.

He seems like a really quiet and...gentle guy...thats the only way i can describe him i guess. He is kind of like me in the "nice guy" sort of way. That is the weird part, it's not like she is looking for a different type of guy... I don't see anything he has to offer that I don't already offer...except that new exciting feeling.

I really think confronting him on this just might scare him away :rofl:sorry, the imagery right now is priceless


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

So you have your plan, right? Confront her tonight that you know the truth. Ask her to stop the affair and if she voluntarily agrees, then you don't need to contact the pastor and Brandon and everyone. Start thinking now though of the ONE PERSON whom you would call if she does not agree. Is there one person who is like a mentor to her whom she would NOT want to have find out she is having an affair? Often it is a parent, pastor or employer, but not always. Could be a best friend. 

So work the plan!

Confront tonight
If needed, you would Disclose tomorrow to one person, and the two of you would ask her to stop again.
If needed, the night after that would be full on Exposure to everyone...including Brandon and your employer.


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> So you have your plan, right? Confront her tonight that you know the truth. Ask her to stop the affair and if she voluntarily agrees, then you don't need to contact the pastor and Brandon and everyone. Start thinking now though of the ONE PERSON whom you would call if she does not agree. Is there one person who is like a mentor to her whom she would NOT want to have find out she is having an affair? Often it is a parent, pastor or employer, but not always. Could be a best friend.
> 
> So work the plan!
> 
> ...


Well I did it. I very calmly went through a script that was kind of a mix between what I originally posted and what affaircare said. She never really confirmed that she would cut off all contact but I made it very clear that I will not allow their relationship to go on. She admitted I was a good husband and that we as a couple have been improving lately. She said the problem isn't between us, it's with herself. I can respect that and told her she needs to discover what makes her happy, as long as it doesn't involve Brandon. I'm going to continue to improve myself as an individual as well as part of the marriage. I guess we we see if she continues to contact him. I am going to pay Brandon a visit tomorrow and make it clear he is not to contact my wife. I think that is all I can plan for for now. Please pray for us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good job!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> Well I did it. I very calmly went through a script that was kind of a mix between what I originally posted and what affaircare said. She never really confirmed that she would cut off all contact but I made it very clear that *I will not allow their relationship to go on.*


Sooooo...you're going to do what? Control her and "make" her be a faithful, loving wife? MrRomantic, I hope what you mean here is that she is free to decide for herself what she is or is not going to choose, but you have a boundary around yourself that you will only accept an honest, faithful partner in your life. You can not make her stop this relationship, but you can decide for yourself what you will and will not accept, and you can step aside so she experiences the consequences of her choices. 



> She admitted I was a good husband and that we as a couple have been improving lately. She said the problem isn't between us, it's with herself. I can respect that and told her she needs to discover what makes her happy, as long as it doesn't involve Brandon. I'm going to continue to improve myself as an individual as well as part of the marriage.


This all sounds really nice but did she agree to write a No Contact Letter and never, ever contact Brandon again? Did she agree to let you send the No Contact Letter? If not, I will bet you a billion dollars that this is all psychobabble talk to throw you off track for a few days. She can pacify you with a few promises, not really have to do anything different, and then continue her affair again as before. This is nothing but non-confrontational avoidance. So do not be deceived. 



> I guess we we see if she continues to contact him. I am going to pay Brandon a visit tomorrow and make it clear he is not to contact my wife. I think that is all I can plan for for now. Please pray for us.


You know you always have our prayers, but please don't be disrespected like this if she doesn't agree to write the No Contact Letter. If she will not agree, then what she's REALLY doing is looking for a more secretive way to communicate with him so you can't "trace it"....that's all. So don't be placated. In order for this to be real, she has to actually do the work and do it voluntarily. The No Contact Letter is a non-negotiable. All that "working on herself to be a better person stuff" is nice if contact has ENDED!!


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> Sooooo...you're going to do what? Control her and "make" her be a faithful, loving wife? MrRomantic, I hope what you mean here is that she is free to decide for herself what she is or is not going to choose, but you have a boundary around yourself that you will only accept an honest, faithful partner in your life. You can not make her stop this relationship, but you can decide for yourself what you will and will not accept, and you can step aside so she experiences the consequences of her choices.
> 
> I never made any comments that I am going to control her. The message I made prevalent was that in order for our relationship to grow and prosper, Brandon cannot be in the picture.
> 
> ...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Missed a huge point here, MrRomantic!!!

Affaircare wrote:



> This all sounds really nice but did she agree to write a No Contact Letter and never, ever contact Brandon again? Did she agree to let you send the No Contact Letter? If not, I will bet you a billion dollars that this is all psychobabble talk to throw you off track for a few days. She can pacify you with a few promises, not really have to do anything different, and then continue her affair again as before.


You objected by replying...



> I personally don't like the idea of making my wife sign a contract. If she didn't take our marriage vows seriously, what the heck is a piece of paper I write up going to do? We are adults here. If she is unwilling to cut contact, I am going to move on. I will still follow the seven steps but I don't like the contract idea.


There was never any mention of a contract at all in her post. Ever. No contracts are mentioned, hinted at, required, or advised. 

What Affaircare wrote was No Contact, not ContRact. There is an 'R' missing there, but the implication is about as far away from a contract as East is from West.

She is talking about a NO *CONTACT *letter. 

Contact is when you are in communication with someone.

This letter is a letter written (to Brandon) in this instance, telling him that she will never talk to or see him again.

There is NO *contract* involved in this.

Here is an article explaining why NO CONTACT is so important.

Here are some sample letters. 

If you take the time to read a couple, you'll see that in no way is there any contractual language, nor are these shaped in the form of a contract.

By the way, we have a great deal of experience in healing marriages and in ending affairs. The no contact requirement is one especially helpful healing tool. It tends to end attempts at contact by the Other Person, and shifts focus onto the marriage. It is also a reassuring salve that YOU (the Loyal Spouse) will have - you mail it, you verify it's contents. It helps you as well as her.



----------------
Now playing: The Grateful Dead - To Lay Me Down
via FoxyTunes


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I am a very intelligent person and she is as far from sneaky as you can get. I will find out eventually if they are contacting each other. And when I do, it will make my decision easy. As cold as this may sound, I am only 23, no kids, no joint assets, I am attractive, and I know any woman would be lucky to have me. I will not put up with a cheating spouse. I do love her very much, but I dont deserve to deal with this. I will put forth only so much effort. I am definitely staying on my toes though.


Is there any particular reason why you are even bothering to work on this marriage?


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Is there any particular reason why you are even bothering to work on this marriage?


First and foremost I do love her. She is a very good match for me in all aspects. The first four years we were together were incredible. Things started to go downhill after Brandon came into the picture. I don't want to simply throw away everything we've done together and the relationship we built just because she is getting swept up into the excitement of the affair. We otherwise had/have a great relationship...just need to get rid of the thorn in our side right now. 

Are you implying that with so little at stake, why bother?


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> First and foremost I do love her. She is a very good match for me in all aspects.


This was what I was hoping to hear. The previous post did not give that impression at all.



> The first four years we were together were incredible. Things started to go downhill after Brandon came into the picture. I don't want to simply throw away everything we've done together and the relationship we built just because she is getting swept up into the excitement of the affair. We otherwise had/have a great relationship...just need to get rid of the thorn in our side right now.


Affairs do not happen 'just like that.' In all the time I've spent working with this issue, I have yet to find that. Not saying it won't happen, just haven't seen it yet. Affairs normally occur when there is an unaddressed problem at home, the answer to which seems to be found in the Other Person. 

When you say 'we have had a wonderful relationship' I'd like to suggest that this view is very often the Loyal Spouse's notion. The Disloyal spouse tends to have a different view. Even veiled in fog as is usually the case, there is a grain of truth in the issues that the Disloyal brings to the table. Something was wrong, she either a) tried to talk to you about it (and you didn't listen) or b) simply shut down, didn't say anything and was swept away when someone came along that seemed to offer the solution.

Either way, 'Brandon' is not the issue. 'Brandon' could be anyone - and it is my guess that unless the heart of the problem is found and addressed, you are in for another affair. 

The steps to a recovered marriage are two-fold:

1) End the affair (what you are working on now) - and which INCLUDES absolutely no contact with 'Brandon'

2) Fixing the problem that created the perception that an affair could solve....



> Are you implying that with so little at stake, why bother?


Actually, no. What I am implying is that with all of your obvious perfections (young, good looking, available) - what is to keep you married? [Note - and, actually, I meant that as a semi serious aside - you came across a bit strong there...] What concerns me most, however, is your comment: "... I will put forth only so much effort..." That is quite possibly a hint at the reason why this affair is occurring in the first place...NO way to tell without some careful listening to your wife.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Pete's right; there was something going on at home where she wasn't getting all her top Emotional Needs met, or else you were doing something to Love Bust her. Now, it's not your fault that she didn't tell you. But to say your marriage was wonderful, if not for Brandon...BIG mistake and you'll likely never recover your marriage with that attitude. 

Right now you need to stand strong against the affair, BUT you need a LOT of humility, to address what you did that contributed to the situation at home.

Did we recommend His Needs Her Needs yet? Make sure you read it.


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

That is the problem with trying to get relationship help on a messageboard....you only get part of the picture, the part I spend time typing up.

I am confident that the first four years were blissful for her as well. When we started discussing some relationship problems we were having, she agreed. We both realized something had changed in the relationship that was now making it not so pleasant. It took a couple different times talking for me finally to realize what might be the issue. So what you don't realize is that we (especially me) have been working on the problems that do exist. I didn't mean that this affair just popped up, something was wrong at home and that pushed her to spend time apart from me, just so happened that this is when Brandon entered the picture, and things went from there.

This is a post I made about some of our issues in another thread:


> REVELATION!
> 
> Since getting married, we have both noticed the gradual disappearance of that “in love” feeling. I understood that was expected but it appeared my wife did not. We struggled for a while in our relationship trying to learn how to love each other. This was not too difficult for me. All along in our relationship, I had been doing everything I could think of to show my love for her. I was not feeling any love returned to me. We both had read The Five Love Languages because it appeared that no matter what I did, I wasn’t making her happy and it appeared she didn’t know how to show me love either.
> 
> ...


So we are actively working on our marriage. In talking last night, she agreed that she felt things were getting better between us. We have been spending more time apart which has been good for us. We used to spend all our free time together and that isn't healthy for any relationship.

I don't think you understand how much effort I have put into this relationship. That is what causes me to say "I will only put forth so much effort." It isn't that I haven't tried it is that I have tried extremely hard. If it appears that she doesn't want to put any effort into our relationship then I recognize it just isn't something I want to be part of.

And as far as my statement about being "perfect" goes, I have come to find in my research about relationships that I was needy and dependent on my wife. I think it is something healthy for me and our relationship to realize that she is not "The One." This allowed me, when I found out about the affair, to keep my composure and realize it isn't the end of the world. I was able to better evaluate and work on the marriage. It is also important for my wife to see that I am not needy and dependent. It allows for her to better respect me and not take me or our relationship for granted.

I have every intention of staying committed to making our marriage work, but I will not be disrespected and walked all over. I have my limits, as should everyone.


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

I just emailed her The Purpose of No Contact


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

Is this the same MRRomantic from Sex in Marriage? I thought you had issues with her saying all you thought about was sex and that you were in a phase of not initiating etc... are you the same man? If so, I have more context now.

If not, the "blissful" years you had may have only been blissful to you... at least part of that time she was feeling love busted or emotionally unfulfilled or put upon in some detrimental way. She may have even tried talking to you about it, but even a simple "everything is fine" comment can sway a spouse from trying to communicate their disatisfaction. Actually, some never want to bc they dont want to rock the boat... not realizing its worse in the long run not to.

Anyway, for her to be pursuing this kind of contact with another man says that there is more going on then thinking simply you think about sex too much... that may be code for her trying to say "I dont think you love me" or "you arent right for me". Straying is generally a symptom of something wrong going on already, possibly for years. It may not be what you think either. You will need to listen to her needs requests too.


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

toolate said:


> Is this the same MRRomantic from Sex in Marriage? I thought you had issues with her saying all you thought about was sex and that you were in a phase of not initiating etc... are you the same man? If so, I have more context now.
> 
> That is me
> 
> ...


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## kenmoore14217 (Apr 8, 2010)

I think you are trying and I think you are listening as well. I like your outlook about the whole doormat thing also. Good luck my friend. Just MHO.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't think we are judging you. We're just trying to get you to make sure you are looking at all angles. Too often we see only our viewpoint and vilify the partner, while all along, they are walking around thinking THEIR thoughts and feeling THEIR feelings, just like you are. As soon as you get into their head, so as to give them a reason to want to please you, you have better results. That's all.


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

I do appreciate the advice that has been given. Thank you for all the good comments. 

She responded to my emailing her The Purpose of No Contact. She responded "you are under the assumption that I am having an affair. I am not."

I then emailed her this:


> What is emotional cheating?
> This type of affair is often characterized by:
> •	Inappropriate emotional intimacy. The partner being unfaithful may spend inappropriate or excessive time with someone of the opposite or same gender (time not shared with the faithful partner). He or she may confide more in their new “friend” than in their partner and may share more intimate emotional feelings and secrets with their new partner than with their existing spouse. Any time that an individual invests more emotionally into a relationship with someone besides their partner the existing partnership may suffer.
> •	Deception and secrecy. Those involved may not tell their partners about the amount of time they spend with each other. An individual involved in this type of affair may, for example, tell his or her spouse that they are doing other activities when they are really meeting with someone else. Or the unfaithful spouse may exclude any mention of the other person while discussing the day’s activities to conceal the rendezvous. Even if no physical intimacy occurs, the deception clearly shows that those involved believe they are doing something wrong that undermines the existing relationship. In other words, if there was really no harm in meeting with a friend, both parties would feel comfortable telling their partners the truth about where they are meeting and what they are discussing.
> ...


I don't think she understands what an emotional affair is and that it is as harmful to our relationship as a physical one.

Clearly she didn't take what I said to heart last night, she has been emailing him this morning...oh well, i didnt really think she would end all contact then and there...on to the next step...

Last night when I went on a run she sent him a message saying "I have officially been banned from seeing/talking to you" He responded "Oh no!!! I am definitely not alright with that. Does that mean we aren't hanging out wed?" She didn't respond to that

This morning she started an email conversation
her "I am so mad right now..."
him "I could tell. Anything I can do to make it better?"
her "Has he tried to talk to you?"
him "i don't think so" (I haven't...yet)

Is there a good script for talking to him? Things I should focus on? Clearly my wife hasn't committed to cutting off conversation with him yet...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MR,
You cannot stop this on the "supply side" as your W has an infinite number of men to cheat with. You can ONLY stop this on the "buy side" - by stopping her desire to cheat. 

You talk a good game about boundaries. Now is time to actually show that you have some. This is not about feeling fear - everyone in your situation feels fear. Everyone. This is about managing YOUR emotions and YOUR behavior. 

Your W does not respect you. It really is that simple. In almost all cases "over loving" kills two things: sexual desire AND respect

If you really DO have boundaries assert them. Stop talking and start "doing". She doesn't care that she is hurting your feelings. 

I don't care what anyone else says - a HARD boundary means you are willing to end the relationship if it is violated. If you are willing to tolerate her continuing to be unfaithful - you don't have a HARD boundary there and she will keep walking all over you. 

It is easy to focus on the other guy - but he didn't make vows with you. 



MrRomantic said:


> I do appreciate the advice that has been given. Thank you for all the good comments.
> 
> She responded to my emailing her The Purpose of No Contact. She responded "you are under the assumption that I am having an affair. I am not."
> 
> ...


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> MR,
> You cannot stop this on the "supply side" as your W has an infinite number of men to cheat with. You can ONLY stop this on the "buy side" - by stopping her desire to cheat.
> 
> You talk a good game about boundaries. Now is time to actually show that you have some. This is not about feeling fear - everyone in your situation feels fear. Everyone. This is about managing YOUR emotions and YOUR behavior.
> ...



What kind of boundaries are you talking about? I just confronted her last night about this, its not like I'm letting her walk all over me. I did set boundaries last night. She knows I am not ok with her having anything to do with Brandon. I know she is furious at me right now, but I'm not backing down on this. It is likely going to drive their relationship underground....


Another question, if my wife hasn't yet accepted that their relationship is inappropriate, it certainly wouldn't do any good to ask her to write him a no contact letter would it? Even if she did, I know she would just be doing it to make me happy, it wouldn't be an honest letter.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Another question, if my wife hasn't yet accepted that their relationship is inappropriate, it certainly wouldn't do any good to ask her to write him a no contact letter would it? Even if she did, I know she would just be doing it to make me happy, it wouldn't be an honest letter.


There are two phases to recovery in a marriage:

1) Ending the affair.
2) Working on the marriage.

There is no point to writing a no contact letter until she agrees to end the affair. At this point you should be working on the 7 steps of ending the affair, not trying to work on your marriage.

Consider this: she is having an affair, even if she denies it. So step one:

Gather evidence. Save it somewhere safe. Keep texts, emails, photos, anything. Once you have some evidence:

Confront her. Request that she stop the affair, and begin work on the marriage with you. Show her _copies_ of the evidence. Don't try to convince her or argue with her or plead or threaten. Just STATE the request, and leave it at that. Nothing more.

That puts her on the defensive, and you on the track to working _for_ your marriage. 

And now to address the way you dismiss things people bring up:

Toolate wrote (something I alluded to earlier):



> If not, the "blissful" years you had may have only been blissful to you... at least part of that time she was feeling love busted or emotionally unfulfilled or put upon in some detrimental way. She may have even tried talking to you about it, but even a simple "everything is fine" comment can sway a spouse from trying to communicate their disatisfaction. Actually, some never want to bc they dont want to rock the boat... not realizing its worse in the long run not to.


Which you dismissed:



> What's your point? I can't change the past, but I can work on the future. She hasn't always been one to communicate, and we're working on that.


The POINT is that this is an essential problem that happens in MOST marriages with affair problems, and dismissing it means that you are missing the key element in what happened to you. True you cannot change the past - no one asked you to. But the past is a great teacher. People who refuse to learn from the past repeat the same mistakes over and over and over and over. And the point is: you believe those years were blissful. Our argument is that they may have started that way - but somewhere along the way things went south FOR HER, while you went on blissfully assuming everything was ok - because she didn't get through to you that there was a problem. And now the problem has gotten big enough for even you to notice. 

Almost all Loyal Spouses have a dreamy image of the past - and the affair is usually a rude 'wake up' call.

At your age people do not listen to others (you believe you have all the answers), but I am hoping you will become the exception to the rule and hear what we are trying to tell you. We can help you save your marriage - but you need to hear what we are saying.

Some things to note with your dismissal. If your wife has NOT felt this 'bliss' which you attribute to her (remember that it is very easy to assume what someone else thinks) then it would be advisable for you to find out what is wrong. 

You say that she hasn't always been the one to communicate. That comes as no surprise at all. You are very quick to dismiss things people write on this thread - I'll bet she is even more dismissed. The way you answer things on here shows a rather strong tendency to refuse to consider what other people say - you pick the things in their statements you like and simply ignore, or deny the rest. 

As long as you do that, you are not seeking help or advice: you are looking for statements that coincide with your own as validation for your opinions. And your marriage will fall apart if you keep that up. Of course you'll feel justified because your wife simply wouldn't stop her affair - until you are older and you think back over your life. We're trying to help you avoid that.

Your wife has found someone that fills a need that you are not filling. Probably he actually listens to her. Whatever it is, until you begin to show that you recognize where you were wrong and she sees changes, all the threats and 'boundaries' you are 'setting' come across as control, not love.

As for your 'boundaries' - what are they?


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> There are two phases to recovery in a marriage:
> 
> 1) Ending the affair.
> 2) Working on the marriage.
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She's 'figuring it out' with Brandon.

Remember, I did tell you to explain to her what an emotional affair is, because most EA people don't look at it as an affair.

Point out:
You talk to him when I am not around.
You don't show me what you say to him.
You wouldn't say what you say to him if he were sitting here WITH us.
That is cheating on me.


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

turnera said:


> She's 'figuring it out' with Brandon.
> 
> Remember, I did tell you to explain to her what an emotional affair is, because most EA people don't look at it as an affair.
> 
> ...


Did you see my post (#37) I


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I wrote:



> That puts her on the defensive, and you on the track to working for your marriage.


you asked:



> How is putting her on the defensive good for the relationship? I certainly agree she is on the defensive now, but I don't see why that is a good thing.


In regard to the affair, she will have to find ways to defend it - to explain why it is acceptable and justified. And in making those claims, she (and you) will begin to understand more of what needs to occur in your marriage in order for it to become healthy. 

The alternative is for her to go on the offense.How would that help your marriage?



> It sounds like you are missing the point that I am working on making things better. I am actively working on figuring out her love extinguishers and eliminating them. Isn't the fact that I'm seeking out advice here helping to show you that I am trying to figure out what went wrong? I am aware of certain things in the past that may have started this ball rolling, at those are the things I am working on. I'm not ignorant of the past, I just dont like being challenged by someone pretty much telling me, no, you wife was not blissful during those years. I was there, they were not.


While I understand that it is uncomfortable to have people disagree with you, it is a useful tool: you disagree with a statement, and then look for concrete evidence to prove that you are right. 

And until you become less defensive, you won't make much progress. You include contradictions in your defense, which means that you have not clearly looked at the past yet: 

1) you claim things were blissful (definition: blissful - completely happy and contented) 

and then you write: 

2) I am aware of certain things in the past that may have started this ball rolling.

You cannot have both. Bliss means COMPLETELY happy and content - and yet there are 'things' that 'may' have started the ball rolling. 

This means that it was not bliss. It may have been nice - and, as had been pointed out, things most likely were better for you than for her (this is NORMAL for the Loyal Spouse.) 

So when someone challenges you on the idea that up until the Other Man shows up, things were blissful, you get defensive and claim 'I was there, they were not' - implying that 'they' were wrong - which means that you and your wife were 'completely happy and contented' - and yet "...I am aware of certain things in the past that may have started this ball rolling, at those are the things I am working on...." 

The point is that you (along with 99.99% of all other Loyal Spouses who have discovered an affair) have a dream image of the past. I've been there, I know how that feels, what you are thinking. I was certain the past was wonderful - and then found out that my idea was wrong - and that things weren't all daisies and buttercups.



> I resent the fact that you find me so dismissive. I have read and thought about all of the comments posted here. They are something I'm keeping in mind, but I don't necessarily agree with everyone's OPINIONS. I am certainly not dismissive of my wife and I don't think you have the right to say that. You don't know that.


I've read your other threads - I've seen how you relate to your wife. You come across quite often as being hardly aware that she even has independent thoughts. You act surprised when she doesn't do something you assumed she would do. How do you think that makes her feel? Somewhat like you don't bother to consider her thoughts, feelings, opinions? Dismissing something means immediately flying to a defensive stance, using words like 'so what?,' etc. instead of actively considering the statement and then showing real proof that it is wrong. 

Of course no one expects you to follow all the advice on this board. You'd have to be schizoid to do that! But we do hope that you will _consider_ it before you decide to ignore it. You wrote:



> Isn't the fact that I'm seeking out advice here helping to show you that I am trying to figure out what went wrong?


Not in the slightest. For all I know, you are looking for verbiage that coincides with your presuppositions and using that as validation. I don't come on here to validate anyone: I argue in defense of marriage. My arguments are _designed_ to get at the presuppositions a person has, to challenge them, to make sure they are correct and moral - and if there are errors - to create new presuppositions which set a basis for a new way of approaching a marriage - an entirely different way of being married - one that works and creates trust, is honorable, and may even be conducive to happiness.



> I cannot make my wife talk, correct? So last night, when I confronted her about having an emotional affair with Brandon, I asked that she cut all contact and that we work together to improve our marriage and bring it back to life. I admitted the errors I have made in our relationship and emphasized that since we last had a deep discussion, I have been working hard on what was a problem. We both agree that things have gotten better. I told her that I want to continue to work on things between us and provider her with any needs that are not being filled. Her response was that there isn't a problem BETWEEN us, that it is a problem with her, some personal issues she needs to work on. She didn't tell me more about that. So I am being very open to letting her express what she needs from me and what is wrong. She is telling me that there isn't anything I can do, that its just something she has to figure out on her own, her own personal issues. I am very open to listening to her, it is her choice whether to talk to me or not, so I also resent the fact that you think I don't listen to my wife.


Again, I am going by what you've written - I cannot know anything other than the data you've presented. This paragraph is an entirely new set of data. If you actually did talk to your wife in this fashion, I'd say you are communicating with her. But this is not the stuff I've read on your other threads. So my challenge is to become the listener you suddenly claim you are. 

On the other hand, isn't it a bit ironic that you give no hint of being such a great listener until someone points out that it looks like you aren't hearing your wife - based upon all the things you've said? 

Again, I urge you to drop the defensive posture - people on this board are not generally a threat to you. What is said _normally_ s designed to get to the heart of the matter, to cut away anything that may be stopping you from getting what you want, and in some of our cases, to help your marriage. 

As for the actual discussion that went on between you: you are hearing _Disloyal Dizziness_ - 'its not you, its me,' etc. Hear it, acknowledge it, but remember that it is FOG talk -not the real thing. That will come later. Instead, keep on looking at her needs, and infinitely more important - stop all Love Extinguishers. No love can be built, no healing can be done, till those end (whatever they are.)



> Right now, I feel that my only boundary is that she not become emotionally or physically involved with another man. I am not too demanding of a person, I just want my wife to remain loyal to me and to discuss problems with me so that we can work on them.


That is a boundary you are placing on her - in other words, a form of control. That is not YOUR boundary - and it will not work. It is totally understandable what you want! In fact, that would be a healthy marriage. The goal is to get to that point. Your boundaries must be fences you place around yourself: places beyond which you will not step, things that protect you. You can't place boundaries on others without causing trouble.

Now, since you have evidence stored away, and have confronted her, respectfully requesting that the affair stop (respectfully, right?) - and things have not changed - then: you need to move to the next step, right?

Go to one authority figure that she considers wise counsel (pastor, preacher, parent, etc.) Show them the evidence and ask that they help you. 

----------------
Now playing: The Clovers - Love Potion No. 9
via FoxyTunes


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

I understand confronting a spouse about an EA, as I did the same thing and my husband was in the same denial about it... got very angry actually. I basically had to let go of trusting him bc it was the only way I could accept that I have no control over the decisions he makes in re: to another woman. He is going to do what he is going to do. I hope you dont have to go in that direction bc its not healthy for the marriage. I hope what you say is true and you are both working on things... hopefully they are the things that will help. Sometimes, however, we cant see the things that we need to be working on so we work on the things we THINK we need to work on and they are the wrong things. Sometimes just simplifying by means of sitting down and writing out what would a happy marriage look like to you and she does the same... not a story about it, but concrete things that you would like your spouse to do... such as "I know our marriage is good again when I see this..." and list specific things off. Using those words may help stay away from "I know our marriage will be good again when you stop doing this..." which is so easy to go to.

Im not trying to dismiss you or tell you you are in left field, I want to help you with what I have learned. I have been on both sides of this, so I can see it from both angles.

The really frustrating part which I can hear in your post, literally... is that you know its not appropriate for the marriage, and why cant she see that? Then, if she cant see it with him, she ownt see it with others... get my point? I went through that as well bc my husband totally missed it (or told me that anyway). 

Also, I confronted her as well... you shouldnt need to go there. As was said by others... its your wife that you need to deal with. I went to the OW for reasons like yours... my husband wasnt listening or believing me, so I felt I had to step in. I wish I hadnt bc it doesnt make it feel like an honest effort on my husbands part anymore bc of it... I dont feel he truely would stop another one bc he truely still wont recognize it. Maybe you should go through the harder short term route to get the better long term results that I didnt do. Good luck..

I agree with T-pete... go to authority figure and ask for help... rather than going to the OM.


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

I will totally admit I am feeling defensive about all of this. It did feel like I was blindsided by this whole affair. I cried my eyes out when I first found out. At that point i started doing tons of research but its so hard to find what seems to be the right answer...every situation has so many variables in it.

I am thankful for the advice and support and for all that i have learned from this place. I feel better armed to create an environment for a successful marriage.


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## NotJustMe (Jun 24, 2010)

MrRomantic said:


> I feel better armed to create an environment for a successful marriage.


This is good, but you are getting ahead of yourself. You cannot even begin to create such an environment while the affair continues, and believe me, the steps you will most likely need to take before she chooses to end it are not going to feel to you at all like you are working to create this type of environment. Strap in, you are in for one hell of a ride, and it is going to be a much longer trip than you think...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I will totally admit I am feeling defensive about all of this. It did feel like I was blindsided by this whole affair. I cried my eyes out when I first found out. At that point i started doing tons of research but its so hard to find what seems to be the right answer...every situation has so many variables in it.


I can most certainly empathize with you there - I've been in your shoes, and it does blindside you. It takes some time for the sparks, bluebirds, and planets rotating around your head from the blow to clear before you can start to work.

Remember to take this ONE STEP at a time, and one PHASE at a time. You are in phase one: end the affair. Don't jump to phase two (preparing the marriage) too quickly - it will set you up for more disappointment!


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## MrRomantic (Jun 14, 2010)

What am I supposed to do in the meantime as I work to end this affair? Am I supposed to go about life with my wife as if nothing happened? Like tonight when I get home from work, should I just give her space or suggest doing somethign fun?

and I'm not supposed to work on our marriage until all contact has ended? That isn't really appealing for her to leave an exciting affair to come back to a boring marriage.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

MrRomantic said:


> What am I supposed to do in the meantime as I work to end this affair? Am I supposed to go about life with my wife as if nothing happened? Like tonight when I get home from work, should I just give her space or suggest doing somethign fun?


It's time to do a Plan A (see Step 5, Carrot & Stick on our website) - be the best husband you can be - no love busters, no love extinguishers. *Do this while you follow all the other steps -do it for the rest of your life...* Do fun stuff! Make life enjoyable. What you want is to create an environment where she sees what she will be leaving if she chooses to continue the affair. Do NOT enable the affair - that's a boundary you can set (I won't help you destroy our marriage) - but DO show her love, honor, etc. 



> and I'm not supposed to work on our marriage until all contact has ended? That isn't really appealing for her to leave an exciting affair to come back to a boring marriage.


Its not that you aren't supposed to work on the marriage - its that you CANNOT - because the marriage is made up of the two of you, and unless she is involved, the MARRIAGE can't be fixed. Instead, focus on YOU, on working on bettering yourself, on ending anything you may have been doing that was harming your relationship. In essence: make sure YOU aren't to blame for any wrong choices made in the marriage - leave that up to her. And there is a huge likelihood that she will also begin to choose the right ones - once she sees that whatever troubles there were are going away. It takes time, but there is hope.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

One more thing before I forget - a bit of encouragement. I am over twice your age. My first experience with infidelity came at about the same age as you - my ex wife 'fell in love with' the next door neighbor, moved in with him and left me entirely. If I had had the resource that you have here on this site (and marriagebuilders.com) I could have been spared over 20 (nearly 30) years of subsequent trouble until I figured out what to do about it. You have come to a great place: learn all you can - it will do you a WORLD of good.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Remember, Plan A (no LBs and meet ENs) while NOT accepting affair behavior in YOUR home.


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## Lostagainea (Aug 28, 2012)

I find this to be an incredibly informative post, I was just curious if there were any updates on this situation?


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