# Please help me...



## Intact27

My Wife told me 2 days ago that she no longer loves me and I'm devastated. We have a 8 year old son together and the thought of leaving them both is killing me. We have been married 9 years...

She has promised me there is no one else involved - it is just a case that she loves me for being the father of our son but there is nothing else there.

I don't know what to do, my stomach is in knots. She has agreed to see a marriage counsellor with me, but if she has made up her mind is there really any point? Will I just be putting off the inevitable and putting myself through more torture?

For the record I have always been and still am completely in love with her.

Please help...


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## Intact27

I'd really appreciate any help and/or advice on this please?

As I said I'm devastated and just don't know what to do.


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## JediG

Well, you're going to counselling, what else can you do?

Just try to make this as painless as possible for your son.


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## Ausflower

I wish you luck, I hope the MC works
Be honest with her, don't be afraid to be vulnerable.


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## Emerald

I'm so sorry.

Did she give you any reasons/explanation as to why she feels this way?


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## KathyBatesel

Intact27 said:


> I don't know what to do, my stomach is in knots. She has agreed to see a marriage counsellor with me, but if she has made up her mind is there really any point? Will I just be putting off the inevitable and putting myself through more torture?
> 
> For the record I have always been and still am completely in love with her.
> 
> Please help...


There isn't enough information here to offer you much feedback to your questions. The fact she's willing to see a MC says she isn't "completely done" with you, but it's also not a guarantee that she'll address problems. If you care to share more details about what immediately triggered her to say this and what built up to that moment, it can help us give you better feedback.


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## Intact27

Thank you for your replies.

I'll try and give some more info but I really don't have too much...

She turned 39 the other day and it all seemed to start after this, I thought it was the case of birthday blues but she has since told me she's been thinking about it for a long time - 6 months or so.

She says she doesn't know who she is anymore - that she just became a wife and mother.

I've always felt happy and our relationship hasn't been abusive in any way - although I probably do have a horrible knack of moaning about small things; mess in the kitchen etc.

I desperately want another chance to put this right. I'm trying desperately to keep it all together for the sake of our son - I am being as nice as I possible can too her - but she is now very distant.

Honestly, it's killing me at the moment.

Thank you all again.


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## anchorwatch

Another MLC. 

Stop acting clingy, it will only drive her further away.

Sorry to be curt. If she wants to know who she is, tell her to look at her drivers licence. All that information is there. 

Why haven't you sensed this coming? 

Who has she been in contact with lately? 

Has she made any new friends?


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## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> Another MLC.
> 
> Stop acting clingy, it will only drive her further away.
> 
> Sorry to be curt. If she wants to know who she is, tell her to look at her drivers licence. All that information is there.
> 
> Why haven't you sensed this coming?
> 
> Who has she been in contact with lately?
> 
> Has she made any new friends?


As far a is know she hasn't been in contact with anyone new recently.

She has promised me there is no other man involved - and I do still trust her.


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## This is me

This is a Mid Life Crisis. Been through this. It is devastating to the unknowning spouse. Heed my words....Do everything to mitigate the damage, for this will very likely pass.

Do not crumble. Learn the 180 and be as strong as you can, mostly for yourself and your child. Patience is the key. Be steadfast and solid, knowing that she may need space and time to get through all of this.

The fact she will do MC is good. You should both do IC also, if possible. It is money well spent if you choose the right Counselors. Make sure you both agree on the MC. Neither one should be going to a MC if they are uncomfortable or sense the C is not pro-marriage. Counselors bring their own history and pain into the room, so ask good questions.

Read "Divorce Remedy or Dovorce Busters". They were very helpful to me.

I wish you well!


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## happyman64

Intact

It takes 2 to have a successful marriage.

If there is no one else involved then all you can do is be honest with each other, get quality counseling and take it from there.

What your wife needs to identify is why is she unhappy and why does she think a Divorce will solve her unhappiness.

Remember this. You cannot change her mind or control her.

So do not get all clingy. Communicate with her. Tell her your feelings and guide her to get help.

I bet you will find out the problem has very little to do with you or the marriage.

Is your wife a selfish person?

Start investigating quietly and see whom else is giving her advice.

Good Luck


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## anchorwatch

You trusted her up to two days ago. Didn't you?


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## This is me

There could be someone else. They will not tell the truth if there is. The other person could be a PA, EA or even a friend who is supporting their wayward thinking. This is very common. Sometimes it is someone who is going through their own break-up and misery loves company.

Be vigilant, snoop, and if you find anyone else in Texts, Emails or other ways, come here for advice before you confront. Mitigate the damage by getting knowledge. Do not react with emotion!!!


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## Intact27

Thanks again for the replies.

I still trust her now and am trying not to be too clingy but its difficult.

She has promised me on a few occasions that there isn't anyone else involved - and frankly I just don't see where she'd get the time to see someone else. She's quite a busy person and we are together every evening.

Someone asked is she is selfish, and honestly she is probably the least selfish person I have ever met.


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## Cubby

I know you trust your wife. So there's no way another man can be involved. We hear that a lot on this forum. The truth is, when a "ILoveYouButI'mNotInLoveWithYou" appears, 9 times out of 10 there's somebody else in the picture.

What you have to do, right now, at the very least, is rule out another man (the "OM"). Does she always have her cell phone with her and does she guard it? Check the cell phone records. You'll have to set up an account with your carrier online to get detailed records. Look for one number she calls a lot. Look at the number of texts. Also check emails thoroughly. This is all easy to do and it has to be done. And make sure you do it without her knowing. If you find something don't confront her until you come here to get advice. You'll get invaluable guidance here.

Nobody believes their wife is capable of cheating, until it happens to them. If there's nobody else involved then it's another issue. But you have to find out.


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## Intact27

Honestly I really appreciate your comments but there's no way I can snoop on her; checking texts etc.


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## Cubby

Intact27 said:


> Thanks again for the replies.
> 
> I still trust her now and am trying not to be too clingy but its difficult.
> 
> *She has promised me on a few occasions that there isn't anyone else involved - and frankly I just don't see where she'd get the time to see someone else. She's quite a busy person and we are together every evening.*
> Someone asked is she is selfish, and honestly she is probably the least selfish person I have ever met.


The bolded part: That's said a lot here. "There's no time for her to have an affair." You're naive if you believe that. There's always time. You can't believe how many betrayed spouses are shocked at how wayward spouses can wedge affair time into their busy day. If there's a desire, they'll find the time. Waywards can be unbelievably resourceful.


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## anchorwatch

Intact27 said:


> Honestly I really appreciate your comments but there's no way I can snoop on her; checking texts etc.


Why?


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## This is me

It took me about a month after hearing the D word after 17 years of a very good marriage. I asked if there was anyone else and she claimed no with confidence, I believed her. 

One day she left her work emails open and sure enough her was a sting of emails with a younger single guy she works with talking about meeting for lunchs. Also emails with her older sister who she works with talking about this guy and how good looking he is. 

This sister never married and has been through many relationships in our 17 year marriage. She was breaking up with one when this all happened.

It took me a while to get up to speed and hindsight has made it very clear that her MLC was supported by a few people who had no interest in our marriage and the damage they were doing to it.

It is your marriage. This may or may not be happening behind your back, but there are many stories of others here on TAM that would suggest you keep your eyes open and don't confront until you get advice here.


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## This is me

Intact27 said:


> Honestly I really appreciate your comments but there's no way I can snoop on her; checking texts etc.


This is what I would have said before the facts came to light.


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## Cubby

Intact27 said:


> Honestly I really appreciate your comments but there's no way I can snoop on her; checking texts etc.


How about what I asked earlier about having her cell phone with her constantly?

Also google this phrase: "Signs my wife is cheating on me" or "how can I tell if my wife is in an affair" or something like that. See how many of them apply to your situation.

The reason I'm stuck on this point is because normally a wife doesn't just out of the blue want to give up on the marriage. Sure sometimes it happens and this might be the case. But usually there's someone else so that's why it's important to dig thoroughly. If there is someone else then the collective braintrust here on this forum will give you great advice on how to blow the affair up.


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## anchorwatch

You came looking for advice to save your marriage. Did you not?

Get your head out of the sand. This is no time for all that personal boundaries crap. You're in a fight to save your marriage and family. 

Trust but verify. Find out where you really stand.

Get the books 'This is me' suggested.


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## Intact27

I will get the books thank you - I also just did the google search and they really don't seem to apply.

Thank you again for all of the replies.


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## anchorwatch

Your dealing with a walk away wife (WAW) in a midlife crises (MLC), that just gave you the ILYBINILWY speech. Google those terms. 

Good luck. 

DivorceBusting.com - Forums powered by UBB.threads™


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## This is me

At a minimum your Wife is going through a MLC. That can lead to cheating. But even if there is no cheating, look at my earliest post. Try to mitigate the damage for your marriage and family. Do not be weak around her, this will only make things worse.


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## Intact27

Wow just googled walk away wife - that pretty much killed off any confidence I had.


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## anchorwatch

Good, now your eyes are opening. 

Get this book too. It's not a sex book. 

Married Man Sex Life 

Read these

How Walkaway Wives Run a Dirty MAP | Married Man Sex Life

Divorce Busting® - Walk-Away Wife Syndrome - Wife Ending Marriage


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## This is me

Intact27 said:


> Wow just googled walk away wife - that pretty much killed off any confidence I had.


I remembering watching the WAW video on Youtube and thinking that this was almost exactly my experience.


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## KathyBatesel

This is me said:


> This is a Mid Life Crisis. Been through this. It is devastating to the unknowning spouse. Heed my words....Do everything to mitigate the damage, for this will very likely pass.
> 
> Do not crumble. Learn the 180 and be as strong as you can, mostly for yourself and your child. Patience is the key. Be steadfast and solid, knowing that she may need space and time to get through all of this.
> 
> The fact she will do MC is good. You should both do IC also, if possible. It is money well spent if you choose the right Counselors. Make sure you both agree on the MC. Neither one should be going to a MC if they are uncomfortable or sense the C is not pro-marriage. Counselors bring their own history and pain into the room, so ask good questions.
> 
> Read "Divorce Remedy or Dovorce Busters". They were very helpful to me.
> 
> I wish you well!


This is what I'm picking up on, too. 

There comes a point in most lives where we look back at the way we once believed we were going to conquer the world and realize that we aren't where we thought we'd be, and we question where we're going next. 

I'd encourage you to talk to her about these things - career goals, marital/family goals, and see if you two can be on the same page or not.


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## Intact27

I honestly believe it could be a mid life crisis too - I have asked her but she says it isn't...

I desperately want to "win" her back and keep our marriage and family together but I must admit I am losing hope and she just seems so distant it makes it very difficult.

Obviously, I am trying to support her without pressuring her but that is difficult because I'm terrified about my future without her. 

I know she has now spoken to her Mother about all of this, whilst I'm glad she has someone to speak too, I'm not convinced its a very good sign for our relationship.


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## anchorwatch

She is not acting in the best interest of you or your family. Stop asking her questions, your not going to get true answers. Don't pressure her or support her. All this makes you look weak and is part of behaviors that are or will drive her away. You can't nice her out of this! That only makes you look repulsive not attractive. You need to look strong. All she needs to know is that your not alright with this but can't control her decisions. If she wishes to leave, you're not begging her back. Continue the reads that were suggested and form a plan. 

180 List - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group


Have you checked your phone logs?


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## Plan 9 from OS

OP, can you clarify for the people posting in your thread about checking up on your wife? Specifically, you can't snoop on your wife or you won't snoop on your wife? If it's the latter, then bear in mind that there really shouldn't be any privacy in a marriage.


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## Intact27

Plan 9 from OS said:


> OP, can you clarify for the people posting in your thread about checking up on your wife? Specifically, you can't snoop on your wife or you won't snoop on your wife? If it's the latter, then bear in mind that there really shouldn't be any privacy in a marriage.


Yes of course. I didn't want to check, but I did.

There have been no strange phone calls, emails or even facebook messages that would leave me to feel she is having an affair.

Of course this stuff can be deleted but I really don't think that is the issue here.


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## Hicks

I would recommend you get a book called the Five Love Languages and read it as soon as possible.

Your mistake as a man is you have not made your wife feel fulfilled, happy and loved.

You may feel that you love her and know that you love her but your actions have not made her feel it and know it. That's what this book is all about.

Getting your wife back will involve understanding what makes her feel loved, happy and fulfilled (i.e. what her emotional needs are in her relationship with you), and you meeting those emotional needs.

I think if you recognize what you have failed to do, and admit that to her, that is the first step. But the worst thing you can do is ask her what her needs are. She wants you to "know her" at such a deep level that this would be a riduculous thing to ask.


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## Tony55

Intact27 said:


> *I desperately want to "win" her back* and keep our marriage and family together but I must admit I am losing hope and she just seems so distant it makes it very difficult.


Intact, there's only one way to win this game, and that's by making moves which you'll perceive as being too risking. You can't *win* her back by presenting yourself as a miserable, humble, scared, crumbling husband, that won't work, I'm 100% sure of this. You best shot is through strength; you must become a wall of strength. Don't sleep in the same room, don't display weakness or pettiness, be cordial to her (not sarcastic though), become aloof, unconcerned, disinterested. You must appear to be unconcerned with her reckless silliness, be indifferent to it, "You have to go? Then go, good luck, I wish you well". She must see you as a rock.

I know this is hard, and I know it scares you to do something that you perceive would drive her away, but believe me, the attitude your displaying to her right now will surly drive her away from you; as you said, "she just seems so distant".

T


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## Intact27

Funnily enough when she first told me she explained what I had done wrong; cruising along, taking her for granted, moaning about silly things, and it was like a light switch went on in my brain. I can see everything I have explained to her that I know and understand, I have also told her that I will make a true dedication to changing...

I'm currently self employed and she told me that, that has been an issue - not knowing where the next pay cheque will come from. I have assured her that I am more than happy for myself and us - for me to close the business and return to full time 9-5 employment.

Unfortunately it still doesn't seem to be enough...


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## the guy

Of course its not enough brother your trying to fugure something out that has nothing to do with you. Your chick is wacked and you can go be the best husbeand in the world right now but she is gone...maybe its "a little to late".

What I can suggest is start working on your self for your self and if your chick wants to come back then great but sooner or latter some chicks going to notice you and want you....then it will be your old lady wanting to work it out again.

So I hope you see Tonys line of thinking....raise that attraction level for your self not for any one eles. Folks around you can only handle the pity party for so long before they start to distance them selves from you.

Until you get up and dust your self off, every one around you, including your wife, will look at you as the guy on the ground getting dusty.

Tony mentions a mind set that shows confidence, and that confidence will look attractive to the poeple around you. And damb straight, Tony is right the sooner you act indifferent towards your chick the sooner she will second guess here choices.

Sure you may have taken her for granted and have shown her an indifference for awhile but I'm not worried about her , I'm worried about you and the puddle of goo you have become.

I think you made it very clear to her were you stand, now it time to make it clear to her you can and will move on with out her...no longer waiting around for her to finish with her boyfri...I mean finish finding her self.


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## This is me

Intact27 said:


> I honestly believe it could be a mid life crisis too - I have asked her but she says it isn't...


Asking if someone thinks they are going through a MLC is like asking a cheater if they are cheating. You would rarely get an honest truthful answer. In their minds everyone else who disagrees with them is the problem. This is why weak friends can actually do more damage by supporting bad behaviors.


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## This is me

Tony55 said:


> Intact, there's only one way to win this game, and that's by making moves which you'll perceive as being too risking. You can't *win* her back by presenting yourself as a miserable, humble, scared, crumbling husband, that won't work, I'm 100% sure of this. You best shot is through strength; you must become a wall of strength. Don't sleep in the same room, don't display weakness or pettiness, be cordial to her (not sarcastic though), become aloof, unconcerned, disinterested. You must appear to be unconcerned with her reckless silliness, be indifferent to it, "You have to go? Then go, good luck, I wish you well". She must see you as a rock.
> 
> I know this is hard, and I know it scares you to do something that you perceive would drive her away, but believe me, the attitude your displaying to her right now will surly drive her away from you; as you said, "she just seems so distant".
> 
> T


This is so true. I remember hearing the D word and falling to pieces, begging, pleading...she was unmoved by my emotion. It only made her more convinced she was right.

Then I saw a video that said do just the opposite. So after a month of pain, I finally concluded I hated to lose her but I needed to accept I might.

I told her, she was right. Our marriage was not working and if she believed she would be happier without me then we should look to make the split. I said this with confidence and unemotional (unlike before). Within a few minutes she was a wreck of tears and pleaded that we spend the day together doing things. 

The tables turned, but it was not over. The fog was still there and took much more time.


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## Intact27

Have to say I am starting to think she's been cheating on me - I have no proof of this it just seems to add up with her recent behaviour.


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## anchorwatch

It's rare someone wakes up one morning and their partner just fell out of love. It means that something was hidden. What is she doing that leads you to suspect it finally? What are you willing to do to prove or disprove it?


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## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> It's rare someone wakes up one morning and their partner just fell out of love. It means that something was hidden. What is she doing that leads you to suspect it finally? What are you willing to do to prove or disprove it?


I noticed a very expensive bottle of perfume in the drawer and its just the physical distance she keeps from me.

I'll do whatever I need to prove or disprove it.


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## Toffer

Intact,

Now go back and re-read some of these earlier posts and do the following:

-Do not ask or accuse her of an affair. She'll only lie to you.
Gather evidence quietly with a VAR in the car and keylogger on the PC
-Get the cell phone records for the past few months and check for alot of texts/calls to 1 or 2 numbers

Good luck!


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## anchorwatch

Check her phone for text and number of text. Compare them with the amount of text/calls on your bill. Look for the most called number or a number used when your not with her. 

Get a few voice activated digital recorders today (VAR). Attach (velcro) one under the seat of her. Put the others around the home where she may use a phone or have company. 

Install a key logger on her computer and put spyware on her cell phone.


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## anchorwatch

Where does she go? Gym, school or other activity? Some cell phone programs have GPS trackers. Use one with that option.

Check her internet/email/Facebook history too.


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## Tony55

The book Anchorwatch suggested, *Divorce Busting*, by Michele Weiner-Davis, (the woman who coined the term "The 180"), is a good place to start. I've never read the book but I studied her site and watched several YouTube videos from her, and she makes a lot of sense.

T


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## Intact27

Well, I've checked and checked and I can say with 100% confidence my wife is not cheating on me.

Unfortunately things have taken a turn for the worse though. After trying really hard last night I admitted defeat and told her I'd get everything sorted ASAP so I could move out.

We started talking about the financial decisions and she broke down like I've never seen her. "I hate myself so much for ruining everything", "if I came back to you it would only be for the money and I can't do that" - she's realised that without me she won't afford the rent on our house which seems to have upset her very dramatically.

Honestly, I have no idea what to do now...


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## This is me

Don't move out! This is a big mistake. 

Secondly, you are not mitigating the damage by...... " I admitted defeat and told her I'd get everything sorted ASAP so I could move out."

It sounds to me like you are making it worse. You need to be the bigger person. Give her room, suggest MC or help, not confontation and financial threats. 

If she is going through a MLC and you want to save your marriage for you and your child, read Divorce Remedy and live it!


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## Intact27

Thanks I appreciate your comments. I'm reading lots of material at the moment.

I've told her countless times that I want to try counselling - we have a session booked for the 8th but she just sees this as a means to a hopeful amicable end...

I haven't made any financial threats - she's worked all that out for herself. I really think in her mind it is now over - she is already talking about bank accounts, how we tell our son etc.

I'm being strong and trying to get on with things - looking for flat etc - not sure that's what I should be doing - but can't really see another way at the moment.


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## Intact27

For the record I have ordered 2 books suggested; Divorce Remedy and 'I love you but I'm not in love with you'.

Could someone clarify please: I'm worried that reading 2 different books will be contradictory and should I try and get my Wife to read these books too?

Also if someone could please tell me how I should behaving/acting now - especially when the conversations turns to finding my own flat etc - I'd really appreciate it.

Thank you.


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## anchorwatch

Follow the methods from this book and site. 

Divorce Busting® - How to Save Your Marriage, Solve Marriage Problems, and Stop Divorce

Act/behave in this manner. These behaviors are from the same method. Enact them now, while you catch up on the books. They will help you. 

180 List - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group

Do not give up with out effort. Divorce doesn't happen quickly. It will be a good while before the courts finally end the marriage. That will give you time. 

When you're done reading Divorce Busting, Get this book from Dr Glover. It will help you a great deal also. 

http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/


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## Intact27

Thanks for the links - I've read about the 180 before - do people really think it can be beneficial? (Not judging at all just curious.)


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## Viseral

Dude! She's leaving you and you're the one moving out? Hell no! Part of your problem is that you're not making your wife feel the consequences of her actions. Man up and make her feel the pain. Plus, this will have the side benefit of making her more attracted to you.

As a man living in western society you're setting yourself up for a world of pain. If you move out of the house, before you know it you'll be paying child support, alimony, half the bank accts, half your retirement fund, etc to a woman who has your kid, lives in the house that you paid for, while she's fu$&ing her new boyfriend. Do not let this happen to you!

She wants out, then show her where the door is.....


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## anchorwatch

Intact27 said:


> Thanks for the links - I've read about the 180 before - do people really think it can be beneficial? (Not judging at all just curious.)


It is one of the most recommend for your situation. It will help you learn how to detach, keep your emotions in check and allow you to think clearly. A side effect will be a cold realization, by your wife, that you are ready and willing to move on without her. 

Ask 'This is me'. He was successful with this method, in your situation. 

Do not leave your home. She must be confronted with the stark reality of her decisions, that she has decided to move on, on her own. This means with out your help. She should see that this has not been thought out well.


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## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> It is one of the most recommend for your situation. It will help you learn how to detach, keep your emotions in check and allow you to think clearly. A side effect will be a cold realization, by your wife, that you are ready and willing to move on without her.
> 
> Ask 'This is me'. He was successful with this method, in your situation.
> 
> Do not leave your home. She must be confronted with the stark reality of her decisions, that she has decided to move on, on her own. This means with out your help. She should see that this has not been thought out well.


Ok thank you. I will give the 180 my absolute best go.


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## happyman64

Stay calm. Reality is starting to hit her.
And do not move out.

If she is pushing you, pack hER a bag and show her the door.

do not mAke any big decisions until after counseling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch

happyman64 said:


> do not mAke any big decisions until after counseling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


HM64 is right. Do not make any life changing decisions while you are in this state. Do not allow her to make them for you either. You almost did that by moving out of the house and leaving your child. If she wants to leave the marriage, she knows where the door is. She doesn't get to decide that she wants the marriage to end, so you have to leave it.


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## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> HM64 is right. Do not make any life changing decisions while you are in this state. Do not allow her to make them for you either. You almost did that by moving out of the house and leaving your child. If she wants to leave the marriage, she knows where the door is. She doesn't get to decide that she wants the marriage to end, so you have to leave it.


Trying very hard not too but it's so difficult. People keep giving me books to read and I'm trying to do everything - but the reality is - I'm the only one do anything...

For the time being I'm trying my hardest to be strong and take it in my stride - but I equally know I could crumple at any point.


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## livinfree

Intact27 said:


> Trying very hard not too but it's so difficult. People keep giving me books to read and I'm trying to do everything - but the reality is - I'm the only one do anything...
> 
> For the time being I'm trying my hardest to be strong and take it in my stride - but I equally know I could crumple at any point.


It is very hard. In my case my WW was all talk and no action. I detached and I am now an emotionless zombie to her, and she's on the virge of a nervous breakdown over her poor choices.

Stay strong, stay home and stay a great father. Journal each day and document everything.


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## Intact27

Well the 180 is not going great. I spent the day with our son yesterday and it just seemed to make me emotional. During the evening I pleaded with her to give it another go in which she replied "I'll think about it" - I'm not confident about it though...

I asked her this evening if she had, had a chance to think about anything and she told me it was far too soon to be asking...

I'm spending far more time by myself as she is with her mum a lot and it just gives me far too much time to think and worry.


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## anchorwatch

Intact, 

If you don't get a grip on yourself first, you'll never get grip on the situation. Don't ask her anything. It is making you look weak to her. Tell her what is going to happen. She longs for a strong figure of a man. This weak behavior is allowing someone else to control your life and your boy's. You need to lead here not fall apart. 

It's time to get some anger in you, at whats she is doing to your family, and some respect back as a man. Hit the weights hard till you hurt, go for a run till your lungs burn. When you falter, get up and do it again. Work it till you get mad at the situation she put you in.

Get to your MD, explain the situation, ask for meds to calm your emotions. Don't be ashamed, you're going through a rough time of it.


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## Intact27

I do agree with this and I am working out.

I got angry with her last night - which is when she said she'd like to think about things.

I was just furious "How can you do this too us - to our family" "You're a strong person but you are being weak for not trying" etc.


----------



## anchorwatch

Intact27 said:


> I do agree with this and I am working out.
> 
> I got angry with her last night - which is when she said she'd like to think about things.
> 
> I was just furious "How can you do this too us - to our family" "You're a strong person but you are being weak for not trying" etc.


Good. You must keep that fire in you or you will have no chance to succeed. Let her see that Alpha male. Let it frighten her that you won't lie down and just take it. Knock her idea of you off balance.


----------



## Intact27

So, my Wife has agreed to talk (and try not to argue) tonight...

Anyone have any pointers with regards to what I should or shouldn't say?

Thank you.


----------



## happyman64

Advice for you.

Shutup. Stop thinking and Stop worrying.

Do a real 180.

And when she talks tonight really shutup and listen to her.

Get the truth. See what her issues are. And try to determine if she is honest with you and herself or in the fog.

Stop shooting yourself in the foot and come back here to use us as a sounding board.

Do not make any decisions on the fly. Just listen to her.


----------



## Intact27

happyman64 said:


> Advice for you.
> 
> Shutup. Stop thinking and Stop worrying.
> 
> Do a real 180.
> 
> And when she talks tonight really shutup and listen to her.
> 
> Get the truth. See what her issues are. And try to determine if she is honest with you and herself or in the fog.
> 
> Stop shooting yourself in the foot and come back here to use us as a sounding board.
> 
> Do not make any decisions on the fly. Just listen to her.


Thanks I will keep all of this in mind...

I know you are right but it is difficult - I am usually a strong man, but constantly feel I have something to say at the moment; things to get off my chest etc. In honesty, I don't think the time of year is helping me at all. It's very depressing.

I will listen, listen and listen tonight.


----------



## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> Thanks I will keep all of this in mind...
> 
> I know you are right but it is difficult - I am usually a strong man, but constantly feel I have something to say at the moment; things to get off my chest etc. In honesty, I don't think the time of year is helping me at all. It's very depressing.
> 
> I will listen, listen and listen tonight.


Take my advice. And if the holidays are making you over emotional then delay the talk.

No woman likes a weepy, emotional, begging man.

So start becoming the strong silent type.

It is really for your own good.

And remember, *You are No One's Plan B!*


----------



## anchorwatch

I agree with HM64. 

Print out, re-read and keep a copy of the 180 on you for guidance. 

Read #33 twice. 

You can't change her, but you can change the way you react towards her. 

PS, Are you still so sure there is no one else? Have you used a VCR yet?


----------



## Intact27

Yep I've checked everything and there's no one else. She's not even been taking great care of her self (appearance wise) - noticed she hasn't shaved her legs recently etc. In my experience people having affairs take care of their appearance and wear nice clothes/underwear etc.

I still want her to give our marriage another go so it will be hard not to argue my case. I understand and will stick to the 180 as best as I possible can - particularly number 33.

I'm not sure for example if it's worth me raising the point that I believe we owe it too our Son to give our marriage another go?

I'll let you know how it all goes and hopefully you'll be kind enough to give me further advice...


----------



## anchorwatch

You can say your willing to go to MC and work on the marriage, but you won't do it alone. If she doesn't wish to give it a go, you won't be a back up plan waiting around for her to decide. You have more respect for yourself than that. 

It is hard to do and she couldn't have pick a worse time of year bring this out. That's why you must work even harder to stay in control of yourself and the situation. Good luck.


----------



## Intact27

Thank you for your advice - I will keep it all in mind and try and stay in control.


----------



## happyman64

Good. Nothing positive comes from anger.

And remember, no change will come until you change.

So focus on you right now.

Just remember to listen.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Obviously, I am trying to support her without pressuring her but that is difficult because *I'm terrified* about my future without her.
> 
> Well the 180 is not going great. I spent the day with our son yesterday and it just seemed to make me emotional. During the evening *I pleaded with her* to give it another go in which she replied "I'll think about it" - I'm not confident about it though...
> 
> Unfortunately things have taken a turn for the worse though. After trying really hard last night *I admitted defeat* and told her I'd get everything sorted ASAP so I could move out.



You are obviously at a GREAT disadvantage. *You need to be A LOT STRONGER.* I know you know that but what are you doing about it?

The 180 seems to be good advice. However, I would like to add some other advice.
In addition to the 180 
*YOU NEED TO PUT A WHOLE LOT OF YOUR EFFORT INTO BUILDING YOURSELF UP. *


There is not much that you can do to change your wife but there is a whole lot that you can do for you. Seek out family, friends, your faith support people. IC, Hobbies, Bucket list, anything and everything that will involve you building you up and NOT focusing on your wife.

It will be very hard but your well being is at stake so go into survival mode. You are way too dependant on your wife for your total emotional life. *Your wife or no other woman is going to be attracted to a person that is not confident or self reliant to an acceptable degree.*

If your wife is going through one of those very tough periods in her life that has her questioning a lot of things then there is not much you can do; especially since she seems to be making you the scapegoat. I think your wife is really twisted in her mind and emotions by what you have written.

Your job is to get yourself stronger for you, your children, and maybe your wife if she ever starts to get out of her twisted mind and emotions.

*What have you been doing to help your emotions and mind?*

*What is your plan to add to your efforts to improve YOUR mind and emotions without you being totally consumed with your wife?*


----------



## Intact27

Well the talk went ok I think. I was unemotional and stayed in control at all times. I did tell my wife that I felt she owed us and our family another chance. I told her she needed to try.

She told me she was trying and if she wasn't she would of "bolted". She said she is trying to get by until the 8 th (our appointment with our counsellor). Se did say she feels at about 70 - 30% - 70% she would like to split up and 30% she can see us staying together. Not sure if that's a good thing or not...

She did tell me she isn't ready for anything physical which includes; kissing, holding hands and obviously sex. She once again stated that she's not in love with me and she doesn't find me attractive... Hard stuff to hear...

I remained calm at all points. She then broke down into tears.
We got into bed and she kissed me on the cheek...

I really don't know what to think at the moment, but somehow I do seem to feel a little better.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Quote of Intact27*
> I was unemotional and stayed in control at all times.
> I remained calm at all points. She then broke down into tears.
> We got into bed and she kissed me on the cheek...
> 
> I really don't know what to think at the moment


*
I do, You showed strength!*


Do you care to answer my question below?

You need to be A LOT STRONGER. 
*I know you know that but what are you doing about it?*


----------



## Intact27

Mr Blunt said:


> *
> I do, You showed strength!*
> 
> 
> Do you care to answer my question below?
> 
> You need to be A LOT STRONGER.
> *I know you know that but what are you doing about it?*


I am being strong. I am exercising, I am going out with friends and most importantly I am laughing again. I feel I need to love myself before she is able too.


----------



## Viseral

Listen man, she said there's a 70% chance she's leaving you? This is not good. And honestly, her putting this to you in these terms has an air of condescension. As if you're suppose to just wait around like a puppy dog awaiting your fate based on her whim. F that man. Call her out on that BS and demand that she either stay or get the hell out.

Also, you have to be prepared to stay in your house at all costs and if she "bolts", then immediately separate the finances. Start making preparations to do that now. 

This is not about being mean, this is about making her feel the consequences of her actions. It's the carrot and the stick.

Continue to focus on manning up. Make the conversion from dud to stud. Go out to bars to pick up chicks and let her know about it. Tell her she's not meeting your needs and since she cut you off sexually that you're seeking other options, as in hooking up with hot chicks.

She won't like this, but tough sh1t. She's the one destroying your family so make her feel the pain. 

There's a great thread in here somewhere by Ronin75 or something like that that you need to read. We walked him all the way through his separation/divorce and convinced him not to leave his home. Can some one provide the link for that please?


----------



## Intact27

Well I appreciate your advice I'm not going to "go out to bars to pick up chicks" - I'm married that may not mean much to her at the moment but it certainly does too me.

Yes 70/30 isn't great odds, but just ten or so days ago I was told "no chance". Of course I don't want to wait round like a puppy dog and I am beginning to be strong. But I won't just jump into bed with over women to prove a point.


----------



## Emerald

Another POV is that she may be depressed.

W/o realizing it is a treatable illness, she may "blame" you as the source of her depression. She may be playing "geographics." If she leaves you, she "thinks" she will be happy.


----------



## Intact27

Emerald said:


> Another POV is that she may be depressed.
> 
> W/o realizing it is a treatable illness, she may "blame" you as the source of her depression. She may be playing "geographics." If she leaves you, she "thinks" she will be happy.


This has crossed my mind and it kind of fits with the lack of physicality and with when it happened. I have asked her if she would see a doctor but she refused. Hoping it may be something our marriage counsilor spots - until then I am making an effort to make her smile a little everyday.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> My Wife told me 2 days ago that she no longer loves me and I'm devastated.


Intact27,

Did your wife actually do anything with regards to her change in feelings or is it all contained in her statement with everything else being the same?


----------



## Intact27

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Intact27,
> 
> Did your wife actually do anything with regards to her change in feelings or is it all contained in her statement with everything else being the same?


Hi there,
sorry but I don't really understand the question...


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> Hi there,
> sorry but I don't really understand the question...


I read through your posts and I'm wondering if I may have missed whatever actions your wife has taken to back up her statement that she no longer loves you. Please elaborate


----------



## Intact27

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I read through your posts and I'm wondering if I may have missed whatever actions your wife has taken to back up her statement that she no longer loves you. Please elaborate


Ah I see... Sorry... That's a hard question actually. She's told me repeatedly that she doesn't love me and doesn't find me attractive, booked marriage counselling with me and asked me to leave a few times as well as stopped all physical contact. She has told her mum and best friend about the situation. Not sure what else there should be to look for really?


----------



## Intact27

Ok, so my wife told me last night that she wanted to work on our marriage - mainly for the benefit of our son.

She said again that she no longer loves me but is trying to have feelings for me... She also said she's not ready for anything physical.

We always had a very physical relationship so I do find this rather odd.

We are seeing our counsellor on the 8th anyone know if they will be able to help with this?

Thanks.


----------



## Intact27

Well my Wife and I are still in the same house - we are trying but it's difficult. She still says she doesn't love me/isn't attracted too me. We give each other the odd hug here and there but other than that there's no physical contact at all...

I've found the trouble with doing the 180 is - a lot of the practices in it are what got me into this mess in the first place. There are things in there which I have wrongly been doing all of our marriage...

I still feel very stuck and very unsure about what to do etc.


----------



## curlysue321

Find out if she really wants to work on things. Counseling isn't going to work if her heart isn't in it. Went to counseling with my exH and we were supposed to be leaving little notes for eachother and he was posting how much he didn't love me on facebook. That's when I decided that counseling was a waste of time.


----------



## Intact27

curlysue321 said:


> Find out if she really wants to work on things. Counseling isn't going to work if her heart isn't in it. Went to counseling with my exH and we were supposed to be leaving little notes for eachother and he was posting how much he didn't love me on facebook. That's when I decided that counseling was a waste of time.


I think she does want to work on things - I have to say I think her main reason is because of our Son, so ultimately I don't know whether that will be enough.

She just seems so confused at the moment.


----------



## anchorwatch

Intact27 said:


> I've found the trouble with doing the 180 is - a lot of the practices in it are what got me into this mess in the first place. There are things in there which I have wrongly been doing all of our marriage...
> 
> I still feel very stuck and very unsure about what to do etc.


What are you saying? Have you care more about yourself without regard to her needs?


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> What are you saying? Have you care more about yourself without regard to her needs?


Well, I'm ashamed to say but looking back I think at too many times I've considered my needs before hers... I obviously deeply regret this now, and only wish i'd figured it out sooner. So many times when she wanted a hug or a kiss I was too "busy" with work and too many times I went out with friends and didn't involve my Wife...

Amazing what all this helps you work out and see...

Last night she finished reading her book in bed, turned off the lamp and hugged me and gave me a peck on my neck. Not sure if this is a positive sign as I don't want to get ahead of myself...

Tonight we are house sitting for a friend - so it'll be interesting to see if anything is said or happens in an unfamiliar environment without children around...


----------



## anchorwatch

It took you 6 pages to admit that. I wish you would have said that earlier. Every time you put your needs over her's or ignore her's she loses love for you. 

I know you've been reading. If you have been putting your needs over her's this is the book you should have read first. "His Needs, Her Needs" by W Harley. It will show you how a real marriage works. Simple ideas and an easy read. 

Here's a link to the basic concepts, take a quick look at them. You may find it reveling. 

Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> It took you 6 pages to admit that. I wish you would have said that earlier. Every time you put your needs over her's or ignore her's she loses love for you.
> 
> I know you've been reading. If you have been putting your needs over her's this is the book you should have read first. "His Needs, Her Needs" by W Harley. It will show you how a real marriage works. Simple ideas and an easy read.
> 
> Here's a link to the basic concepts, take a quick look at them. You may find it reveling.
> 
> Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts


Thank you, I will read it.
Believe it or not it's only now that I've realized what I had been doing. Do you think it's something that is possible to put right?

Thanks again.


----------



## anchorwatch

Intact, 

I do think you have a chance to put this right. Let me tell you, I did somewhat as you did. Then I got the "we're just roommates and I'm going to be moving out" speech. I was devastated. I did some quick research and was recommended two books to read. "The Five Love Languages" and "His Needs, Her Needs" Immediately I saw us in these books and realized all the mistakes we had made over the years. I enacted the methods on my own and with in a short period of time my wife noticed and reciprocated. We are going to celebrate our 38 anniversary this year. It can be done!


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> Intact,
> 
> I do think you have a chance to put this right. Let me tell you, I did somewhat as you did. Then I got the "we're just roommates and I'm going to be moving out" speech. I was devastated. I did some quick research and was recommended two books to read. "The Five Love Languages" and "His Needs, Her Needs" Immediately I saw us in these books and realized all the mistakes we had made over the years. I enacted the methods on my own and with in a short period of time my wife noticed and reciprocated. We are going to celebrate our 38 anniversary this year. It can be done!


Wow! I'm currently reading 'The 5 Love Languages' - this is what has made me realise my mistakes. I realised that my Wifes main love language is 'touch' and too often I pushed her away.

Now of course it's difficult to correct as she doesn't want any physical contact...

Congratulations on your anniversary I only hope my marriage survives this - as knowing what I now know, I firmly believe that our marriage could be wonderful if given the opportunity.


----------



## anchorwatch

Do the reads and keep at it. It took me months to get her to believe this was the future and there was no going back to the old ways. The little things added up, the resentments started to diminish and she allowed me to fill her emotional tank/bank more. Once she started to reap the rewards I was in. Been great ever since. 

Look you have an advantage, she is not moving out and she agrees to MC. Maybe you can open her eyes too. If your wife would listen, explain to her what you've discovered and the ideas presented by the authors. Ask her to take the quiz on the site.

Language Profile | The 5 Love Languages®


----------



## Intact27

Thank you I'll keep all of that in mind.

Not really at a stage yet where I could ask her to take the quiz - as everytime I mention something I've read online she just sneers at it.


----------



## anchorwatch

Her love tank/bank is empty. The sneers and resentment is a defense to keep you away, so you won't take any withdraws. Keep trying to fill her needs anyway she allows, eventually she may drop her guard. (Make dinner, give flowers, look at her and listen when she speaks) It's called Plan A. No arguments or angry outburst either. Keep at it. Good luck at MC.


----------



## Intact27

Right now I'm very confused. Saturday evening she gave me a few cuddles and light kisses on the neck at different times. 

Yesterday I casually said to her "thanks for the cuddles last night I really appreciated them" to which she replied "I only did that because you needed them - I didn't do it for myself".

Ouch. Perhaps I've got all of this wrong...


----------



## MrK

And so it continues. It is 2013 and men still get blindsided that the wife they thought they had an AWESOME marriage to doesn't love them after-all. How as a society are we allowing this to continue? I went through my pre-marriage retreat over 20 years ago. They did it then and they are surely still doing it now. Group hugs, a lot of "it'll get tough, but stick in there." Not WORD ONE, I am POSITIVE, on "there is a MASSIVE chance that your wife is going to fall out of love with you and not tell you until it''s too late. Prepare for shock and awe".

I can understand the OP not knowing this. He's a newbie and hasn't been let in on the secret. But what's the deal with all of you veterans of this site? Making it look like you've never seen this before? "It's an MLC". "She's cheating, so spy". 

She's a walk-away wife. Sorry we don't warn our men (or women either) that it happens. When it does, you have to:

- Implement the 180 (Ignoring the part about them seeing an improvement in you and coming back. It doesn't happen).
- Let her go. Get out of the house. Live your life for you and your son. She's gone. And as my boy JG says, "Nothin's gonna' bring her back".

Sorry. Get used to it. I had to. It takes time and it sucks, but it's the most common ailment on this board. Sorry all of the veterans didn't tell you that. Screw her. She's out of your life. Let this be day one of the new you. Your old life is gone. Please get used to it. For your son, if not for you.


----------



## MrK

Intact27 said:


> Yesterday I casually said to her "thanks for the cuddles last night I really appreciated them" to which she replied "I only did that because you needed them - I didn't do it for myself".
> 
> Ouch. Perhaps I've got all of this wrong...


Ya' think?

Screw her. You don't need that crap. 

180. Learn it. Live it. Love it.


----------



## Intact27

You may well be right Mr K, but I'm not prepared to give up on my marriage yet - even if she is. The absolute best outcome for my Son, is that he remains to live with 2 loving parents.

If there is a 1% chance I can help "repair" this situation then I will cling onto it.


----------



## MrK

Good luck to you. No more crying. No more clinging.


----------



## Intact27

UPDATE:

I understand she wants her space but I rarely seem to see much of her. Today she dropped our child off to school - went to work for 2 hours - then shopping. Got home for 10 minutes then it's time to pick our Son up - and then she goes to her Dad's tonight because it's his Birthday... It is like she's trying to avoid me. 

When does "the need for space" become "avoidance"?

I'm heading to the pub for a couple of hours tonight and will just leave a small note that says "will be back soon x" - as I don't think it's healthy to think that I will always be here when she gets home. I work from home and think that has contributed to her wanting/needing "space".

I asked her today how she felt about tomorrow (it is our first counselling session) - she just replied "I don't know, you?" to which i said "I'm a little nervous, but hoping it will help us".

I understand this will take time - but I just wish she wasn't so cold with me - a little closer - sometimes it feels like I'm not getting anywhere and then I start to panic.

I did ask her today how she would feel about going out on a date with me "I'm not ready for that, there would be too much pressure" she answered.

Very sad.


----------



## Emerald

I believe this marriage can be saved. The facts that include there is nobody else, she is willing to go to MC & she is willing to stay for your son are all good. I believe she is either depressed or going through an early MLC.

I do think you need to back off. When I read your posts, you come off too clingy & needy. I mean no disrespect & am trying to give you a woman's POV.

She thinks she's not in love with you anymore. Imagine a woman (not your wife) that you are dating & you are not sure about your feelings towards her, acting clingy, needy & desparate towards you.

Total turn-off.

Be kind. Be respectful & loving. Give her space.


----------



## Intact27

Emerald said:


> I believe this marriage can be saved. The facts that include there is nobody else, she is willing to go to MC & she is willing to stay for your son are all good. I believe she is either depressed or going through an early MLC.
> 
> I do think you need to back off. When I read your posts, you come off too clingy & needy. I mean no disrespect & am trying to give you a woman's POV.
> 
> She thinks she's not in love with you anymore. Imagine a woman (not your wife) that you are dating & you are not sure about your feelings towards her, acting clingy, needy & desparate towards you.
> 
> Total turn-off.
> 
> Be kind. Be respectful & loving. Give her space.


Do you know what I think you're right I am being too clingy an needy - and it's not really me.

I find it difficult to make an effort and not come across as clingy. When she's been out I try very hard not to ask where she's been/who she's seen etc but it is difficult.

I really crapped out Sat night - as she was house sitting I stayed at home with our Son. I sent her a text that basically said "I know you're with someone else, who is it?" I regretted it instantly. The next day she was rightfully upset as the "one chance she had to get away and think was ruined". 

I'm obviously making more mistakes than i'd like but I'm incredibly hurt and worried - I do realise that isn't the best of excuses.

I told my Wife last night that she is the only one for me and I will stop at nothing to try and repair our marriage. She held my hand for a few seconds which was nice - but it just kind of felt like she was sorry for me...

Thanks again for your comment, it is very nice to get a woman's perspective on all of this.


----------



## Viseral

She's gone. However, you may have a very slight chance to win your wife back if, and only if, you follow this advice originally posted by Machiavelli:

"Do not discuss any of the following with your wife. No announcements, no explanations. Just do.

1. Follow Chap's instructions RIGHT NOW. Download Married Man's Sex Life and read it today. Don't let your wife know about it.

2. Get your gut, measured just under the ribs, down to 32" or smaller. Drop all sugar, HFCS, fruit, soy, potatoes, milk, and grain products (corn, wheat, rye, barley, rice and anything containing them) from your diet.

3. Get your chest, measured at the nipples, up to 42" or greater. Start a weight program today. 3X per week. Concentrate on Squat, Deadlift, Decline Bench Press, Leg Press, Compound Row, Overhead Press. Barbell or Machine. Do one or two sets. Load the weight so you can do 8-12 controlled lifts before you can't do anymore.

4. Change your haircut. It doesn't matter what it is or if you like it. Just change it.

5. Upgrade your wardrobe to that of a guy 10 years younger making 50% more $$.

6. Get hot rod, muscle car, or hog.

7. Start going out solo, just like she does. Don't forewarn. Just hit the door in your new threads and say "I'm going out, don't wait up." No explanation. If she asks to go, tell her she's got 5 minutes to get ready."


----------



## turnera

What have you done to change your marriage? Do you take her out once in a while? Do you stand up to her and say no now and then? Do you also go out with your guy friends at least once a month? Many women often 'fall out of love' with their men because the men become 'domesticated' and are no longer attractive in 'that way.' Read Married Man Sex Life Primer to understand more.


----------



## turnera

Intact27 said:


> Right now I'm very confused. Saturday evening she gave me a few cuddles and light kisses on the neck at different times.
> 
> Yesterday I casually said to her "thanks for the cuddles last night I really appreciated them"


Eh, not sure I'd be talking like that with her right now. It seems weak. SHOW her in as many ways as possible that you care and want her, but don't beg, grovel, plead, or let her walk on you.


----------



## OnTheRocks

90% chance she's involved in an affair of some sort, IMO.


----------



## turnera

Yeah, forgot to add that. Have you checked her phone and email for numbers/names you don't know?


----------



## Intact27

Have checked phone/facebook and emails no obvious signs of anything strange...

Yes, I've always gone out with my friends on a regular basis...

It just seems like she has "emotionally checked out" of our marriage. But she's split in 2 directions because she realises just how much it will hurt our Son if we split up...

We have our first counselling session tomorrow - really hope something positive comes of it, but as each day passes she seems to slip further and further away with just the odd relapse...


----------



## turnera

Is she a SAHM?


----------



## Hicks

Intact27 said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> I understand she wants her space but I rarely seem to see much of her. Today she dropped our child off to school - went to work for 2 hours - then shopping. Got home for 10 minutes then it's time to pick our Son up - and then she goes to her Dad's tonight because it's his Birthday... It is like she's trying to avoid me.
> 
> When does "the need for space" become "avoidance"?
> 
> I'm heading to the pub for a couple of hours tonight and will just leave a small note that says "will be back soon x" - as I don't think it's healthy to think that I will always be here when she gets home. I work from home and think that has contributed to her wanting/needing "space".
> 
> I asked her today how she felt about tomorrow (it is our first counselling session) - she just replied "I don't know, you?" to which i said "I'm a little nervous, but hoping it will help us".
> 
> I understand this will take time - but I just wish she wasn't so cold with me - a little closer - sometimes it feels like I'm not getting anywhere and then I start to panic.
> 
> I did ask her today how she would feel about going out on a date with me "I'm not ready for that, there would be too much pressure" she answered.
> 
> Very sad.


You are making many mistakes.
You are acting too weak and needy. This will drive her away faster than anything else you can do.


----------



## OnTheRocks

Keep digging - VAR under the seat of her car, keylogger on the computer she uses at home, look thru the sent and deleted items in her regular email, watch for a secret email address, search house and car for a burner phone, etc. I was in your shoes in 2011.


----------



## anchorwatch

T, the OP has bee advised from page one to act confident and not clingy. He's having a hard time of it.


----------



## turnera

anchor, sometimes it takes a poster several pages of repetition before they give in and decide to listen.


----------



## anchorwatch

I can see that's true.


----------



## happyman64

Good. Now start listening.

And when you are in counseling really listen to what she says.

And if she clams up. Still listen.

You cant fix her but you can fix yourself.

So that is where you start.


----------



## Intact27

Thanks for the comments. I know I'm being too weak and needy at the moment...

No she isn't a SAHM - she has a job - she works approx 3 days a week. I work from home though which I don't think has helped the situation.


----------



## Intact27

Well she started an argument last night and it didn't end well. She had been cold all day, in the evening when I asked if she was ok she just went off on one.

She kept telling me that she didn't love me, would never love me again and was only going to counselling for me.

Hurtful stuff.

We have our first counselling session in under 2 hours but short of a miracle I'm really not sure what it can do for us at this point.


----------



## Hicks

Horrible move asking your wife if she's ok.


----------



## Viseral

So how'd the counseling session go?


----------



## Intact27

Viseral said:


> So how'd the counseling session go?


Difficult. She said she wanted out but was prepared to try. There were lots of tears.

We have been told we need to communicate better, I also must make her feel appreciated. The counsellor told me that any intimacy is likely to be the last thing to return.

I heard some hard things and it was upsetting.

Our counsellor believes that she may know after 6 sessions if there's likely to be a future - not sure how she can tell this though...

So this week it all has to be about communication, making her feel appreciated and helping more around the house... It seems to be me with everything too do but I was prepared for that...


----------



## turnera

Intact27 said:


> Well she started an argument last night and it didn't end well. She had been cold all day, in the evening when I asked if she was ok she just went off on one.
> 
> She kept telling me that she didn't love me, would never love me again and was only going to counselling for me.


And you should have said: 

"Really? Great! Because I'm tired of living with someone who makes me feel like sh*t. Which one of us is going to see a lawyer tomorrow?"


----------



## turnera

And for God's sake, PLEASE stop asking her if she's ok. That's the absolute worst, neediest, doormatiest thing a man can say to a woman.


----------



## turnera

Intact27 said:


> So this week it all has to be about communication, making her feel appreciated and helping more around the house... It seems to be me with everything too do but I was prepared for that...


 Huh? What about what YOU need? Did MC make this all out to be your fault? Or was this just a patch-up session to keep her from bolting? (i.e. giving her ALL THE POWER)


----------



## OnTheRocks

Affair. Unless there is abuse of some sort, most people don't just jump ship with no liferaft. This is exactly how things went down with my ex - ILYBNILWY, cut off intimacy, agreeing to put lipstick on a pig (go to a MC) because she was "willing to try", etc. I finally managed to discover the real reason, but the marriage had no hope at that point anyway. I do think knowing the truth helped me get over things more quickly, and outing her to her friends and family was cathartic if nothing else.


----------



## Intact27

OnTheRocks said:


> Affair. Unless there is abuse of some sort, most people don't just jump ship with no liferaft. This is exactly how things went down with my ex - ILYBNILWY, cut off intimacy, agreeing to put lipstick on a pig (go to a MC) because she was "willing to try", etc. I finally managed to discover the real reason, but the marriage had no hope at that point anyway. I do think knowing the truth helped me get over things more quickly, and outing her to her friends and family was cathartic if nothing else.


She was physically and sexually abused in her previous marriage. Obviously I can never be 100 percent certain but I don't think there's anyone else.


----------



## turnera

Abuse victims usually seek out destructive behavior because they've internalized the abuse to be about them and what they deserve. If they marry a nice guy, they'll make him out to be bad so they can go out and continue self-destructing.


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> Abuse victims usually seek out destructive behavior because they've internalized the abuse to be about them and what they deserve. If they marry a nice guy, they'll make him out to be bad so they can go out and continue self-destructing.


That makes sense - any ideas/suggestions what may help?


----------



## turnera

Set high bars for what actions she must take and DO NOT BACK DOWN when she scuttles over those boundaries. She MUST experience the consequences of trampling those boundaries. 

In other words, you've have to turn into her dad.

Personally, I would be GONE if she didn't agree to at LEAST weekly therapy for the next full year.


----------



## Viseral

Remember, don't leave your home! She's the one who wants out, so make her deal with the consequences. If you leave, then she gets the kids, the house, and half of everything you ever worked for. Step cautiously into the future my friend and come here for advice.


----------



## Intact27

Viseral said:


> Remember, don't leave your home! She's the one who wants out, so make her deal with the consequences. If you leave, then she gets the kids, the house, and half of everything you ever worked for. Step cautiously into the future my friend and come here for advice.


Thank you.

We are in a rented house, and the chances that either of us could afford it alone are slim unfortunately.


----------



## Intact27

Anyone have any ideas of what I should be looking for as a test to see if she is actually trying? I know that's an odd question but I don't want to ask her how she feels etc. I'm fed up with being weak and teary but if there was some sign that she was actually trying it would make me feel a whole lot better.

Sorry to be so vague...


----------



## Viseral

Yeah, disappear for a night or two without telling her where you're going and see how she reacts. 

Does she call? Does she ask where you were? 

Or does she seem happier that you're gone?

You should get some data from that test.


----------



## turnera

Do the Emotional Needs questionnaire and hand it to her. Tell her you expect her to be meeting your top 5 ENs consistently. At month's end, see if she did.


----------



## MrK

Intact27 said:


> Anyone have any ideas of what I should be looking for as a test to see if she is actually trying?.


Yes. Look to see if she says stuff like this:



Intact27 said:


> She kept telling me that she didn't love me, would never love me again and was only going to counselling for me.


Or this:



Intact27 said:


> everytime I mention something I've read online she just sneers at it.


Maybe this:



Intact27 said:


> Yesterday I casually said to her "thanks for the cuddles last night I really appreciated them" to which she replied "I only did that because you needed them - I didn't do it for myself".


How about...

Well, you get the point.


----------



## curlysue321

I think couseling is worth a try. You will know right away whether she is working hard following the counselor's advice or not. I tried counseling with my exhusband and he was sabotaging the efforts. That is when I knew there was no point and asked him for a divorce.


----------



## Intact27

curlysue321 said:


> I think couseling is worth a try. You will know right away whether she is working hard following the counselor's advice or not. I tried counseling with my exhusband and he was sabotaging the efforts. That is when I knew there was no point and asked him for a divorce.


I know what you mean - but we've only had 1 session and it seems it is me with all of the work too do; communication, help round the house, make her feel appreciated etc so it's difficult - almost like I have nothing to judge.


----------



## Viseral

Is your counselor a woman or a man? You're in the UK right?


----------



## Intact27

Viseral said:


> Is your counselor a woman or a man? You're in the UK right?


It's a woman. In her mid 50s and works for Relate.

Yes we're in the UK.


----------



## Intact27

How do you think the counsellor will be able to "get a rough idea" after 6 sessions if there's likely to be a future? It keeps worrying me that... what will she be looking for? Improvement? But then, what will be classed as improvement?


----------



## MrK

Please don't get your hopes up. They rarely come back. And I've got to think the few that do have a slightly better attitude about it than does your wife.


----------



## anchorwatch

I'd say it would be a lot easier for an experienced professionally trained counselor, who can personally interview you and your wife IRL and get feedback from you two, to sort out your problems and give you proper solutions. That would be better than a bunch of second guessing armatures looking at a one sided panicked and bias page of type on a LCD screen, missing at least half of the facts at hand. IMO

The counselor said it would take up to six weeks to know if the marriage could be saved. That means if it is salvageable continued MC, more work and changes on your part will be in order. If you're questioning and bothered by working at a resolution this early, I suspect change isn't easy for you. 

Since you've been listening to us amateurs for weeks and got no improvement, I'd give the counselor a go for six weeks then decide. What do you have to lose? You'l be no better or worse off. 

Or let me put it in words you may be more familiar with. It's only six bloody weeks to give it a go. Can you do that?


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> I'd say it would be a lot easier for an experienced professionally trained counselor, who can personally interview you and your wife IRL and get feedback from you two, to sort out your problems and give you proper solutions. That would be better than a bunch of second guessing armatures looking at a one sided panicked and bias page of type on a LCD screen, missing at least half of the facts at hand. IMO
> 
> The counselor said it would take up to six weeks to know if the marriage could be saved. That means if it is salvageable continued MC, more work and changes on your part will be in order. If you're questioning and bothered by working at a resolution this early, I suspect change isn't easy for you.
> 
> Since you've been listening to us amateurs for weeks and got no improvement, I'd give the counselor a go for six weeks then decide. What do you have to lose? You'l be no better or worse off.
> 
> Or let me put it in words you may be more familiar with. It's only six bloody weeks to give it a go. Can you do that?


That's exactly what I was intending on doing anyway - i am capable of change and have been doing everything asked off me - communicating better - making her feel appreciated (this is difficult at the moment as she really doesn't do anything for me to appreciate at this point in time) etc.

I guess in an ideal world there'd be something that I could look for along the way that makes me think "yep - she's trying and things are improving".


----------



## anchorwatch

Your looking to chip away at a crack in the dam. It is yet to be determined how strong it is. If it can be broke, the counselor will at least guide you to the weakest points. Keep at it. Good luck.


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> Your looking to chip away at a crack in the dam. It is yet to be determined how strong it is. If it can be broke, the counselor will at least guide you to the weakest points. Keep at it. Good luck.


Yeah I know you're right. Guess it feels odd for me to put so much trust into a stranger (the counsellor).

She did say during our first meeting that she has helped couples recover from seemingly more problematic relationships than ours - she also told me to remain optimistic - which I guess is somewhat of a good sign.


----------



## Intact27

So just had a text from her (still no kiss at the end) asking if I can cook us dinner (she's at work today) so we can eat together later this evening. I'm hoping this is a positive sign (if anything at all).


----------



## Hicks

Intact27 said:


> So just had a text from her (still no kiss at the end) asking if I can cook us dinner (she's at work today) so we can eat together later this evening. I'm hoping this is a positive sign (if anything at all).



Please read and follow my advice. It's not a sign. It's a test. How do you pass the test? Say sure, cook her dinner and tell her some jokes during dinner so it is a positive experience for her. Then STOP and don't try to turn it into anything more than you doing something nice and her experiencing somethig positive.

You have to act independent of your wife. She wants out. There is only one way for her to want back in..... That over a period of time she notices that you are a good choice for her. That her feelings with you are positive. That you value yourself and belive in yourself. This is not a quick fix. 

Here's how you generate negative feelings in your woman: Read all your posts and look at everything you have described that you have done. It's all bad.

You have a choice to make the next iteraction with her (dinner) a good or a bad experience... What are you going to do?


----------



## Hicks

And I can tell you in no more sessions that your wife will not change her mind if you are acting the way you are acting.


----------



## anchorwatch

Just a thought. 

Don't you think your impatience may be driving her further away? 

Have you always been impatient with her?


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> Just a thought.
> 
> Don't you think your impatience may be driving her further away?
> 
> Have you always been impatient with her?


Quite likely - and in fairness I'm trying not to be inpatient with her. I'm also trying to be strong (at least in front of her) and be someone that she likes too be with.

Of course when she leaves it all falls to pot as I'm generally worried sick.


----------



## anchorwatch

I think you've been advised to see your MD for something to take the edge off, enough not to fall apart.


----------



## Kimberley17

OK, you need to hear this as painful as it may be. All you are doing is prolonging the inevitable and making your wife resent you more and more. I was in the same situation where after dealing with my husbands crap for years I fell out of love with him. I did end up having an affair but by that time I was already emotionally checked out. Your wife has told you she no longer loves you or is attracted to you. I don't believe that will ever return from experience. I am now going through a divorce and have two little boys. It's very difficult but staying only for the kids and not showing them a loving relationship will have an affect on them as well. It's time to accept reality and move on. Think about it. Oh, and after my husband realized I was serious about being so unhappy after years of dismissing me he had a "revelation" to change as you did. Sorry to say it's too late. Your wife already doesn't feel the same.


----------



## Intact27

Kimberley17 said:


> OK, you need to hear this as painful as it may be. All you are doing is prolonging the inevitable and making your wife resent you more and more. I was in the same situation where after dealing with my husbands crap for years I fell out of love with him. I did end up having an affair but by that time I was already emotionally checked out. Your wife has told you she no longer loves you or is attracted to you. I don't believe that will ever return from experience. I am now going through a divorce and have two little boys. It's very difficult but staying only for the kids and not showing them a loving relationship will have an affect on them as well. It's time to accept reality and move on. Think about it. Oh, and after my husband realized I was serious about being so unhappy after years of dismissing me he had a "revelation" to change as you did. Sorry to say it's too late. Your wife already doesn't feel the same.


If that's the case then why is she attending marriage counselling and why when i have tried to walk out twice has she tried to stop me? I believe very little that is coming out of her mouth at this point in time.


----------



## Kimberley17

Because she's scared. It's a huge step and a scary one at that. I also attending marriage counseling for many months but the fact that I was no longer in love with my husband or attracted to him made it a waste of time. I asked the counselor how I could get my feelings back and she said by spending time together and reconnecting. Problem was I had no desire to "hang out" with him. She then asked a very life changing question. She asked if I want to spend the rest of my life with him and I realized that I no longer did. I knew then what I had to do out of fairness to my husband. He deserves to be with someone who loves him. I think maybe you should ask your wife that very important question. If she says, "I don't know". It's a no and you'll have your answer. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow. It seems any attempt she is making is for your son and because it's scary to make the decsion as it is so final. She is done. Trust me.


----------



## anchorwatch

Kimberly, Even thought the OP has only found out how she feels, your advice would be not to bother with a few weeks of MC discovery?


----------



## Kimberley17

No, he can definitely go with the MC as there is no rush to divorce, however, he has said he feels he is the only who seems to be trying. I just feel terrible for him having high hopes and in my opinion she seems to be checked out. I mean, once you are no longer physically attracted to your spouse where do you go from there? That is from built up resentment and I'm sure she's been feeling this way for a while (a lot longer than 6 months would be my bet). I suppose it's possible to rekindle the old flame but I just don't see it happeneing from personal experience. Plus, his wife has reiterated time and time again she is no longer in love with him so he doesn't get the wrong idea. She's made it quite clear she agreed to marriage counceling ONLY for her son's benefit. I stand by what I said. She is done and it's sad.


----------



## Intact27

I think you're right in one respect. She has definitely "checked out" but I do feel I owe it to my Son to see if I can manage to get her to "check back in" however slim the chances of that happening may be.


----------



## Kimberley17

I agree and wish you luck! You should walk away knowing you tried everything possible.


----------



## Kimberley17

Another thing that may work is if you leave for a month or so. Let her see what it would be like without you. That will either work in your favor or not but at least you will know. Does your son have any idea something is going on?


----------



## Intact27

I have considered it but really don't want to be the one to leave the family home.

My Son has no idea currently - honestly, when we're not discussing this at home we actually get on very well - especially when our Son is around.


----------



## Emerald

Intact27 said:


> I have considered it but really don't want to be the one to leave the family home.
> 
> My Son has no idea currently - honestly, when we're not discussing this at home we actually get on very well - especially when our Son is around.


I agree that you should not leave the family home. She's unhappy, she leaves. If you leave, again it makes you look weak & her doormat.

Ask your counselor if he/she thinks your wife is depressed. Don't be afraid of your wife's reaction which could be strong denial or feeling insulted. Talk about "geographics" which means your wife feels that by leaving you, she will be happier which doesn't work for the clinically depressed.


----------



## Intact27

I'll try that thanks Emerald.


----------



## Hicks

Kimberly laid it all out for you.
You cannot "get her back" by constantly tugging on her.
Your actions have to be primarily focused on yourself, fewer interactions with her directly... Just demontstrating changes in front of her with the hope that she starts moving back toward you (with no guaranteees).


----------



## Intact27

I don't feel like I am constantly tugging on her - at least not anymore.

One of the things she told the counsellor she needs is more communication - I'm trying to honour that so it is difficult not to talk about these things.

She also told her that she needs to feel more appreciated - this is difficult at the moment because under the current circumstances she's not really doing anything for me.


----------



## Hicks

Intact27 said:


> I don't feel like I am constantly tugging on her - at least not anymore.
> 
> One of the things she told the counsellor she needs is more communication - I'm trying to honour that so it is difficult not to talk about these things.
> 
> She also told her that she needs to feel more appreciated - this is difficult at the moment because under the current circumstances she's not really doing anything for me.


She doesnt want appreciation only for what she does for you.
She wants your appreciation for all she does as a wife and a mother.

If you are not telling her how great of a mother she is, how special she is, how well she does.... Who is?


----------



## Intact27

Hicks said:


> She doesnt want appreciation only for what she does for you.
> She wants your appreciation for all she does as a wife and a mother.
> 
> If you are not telling her how great of a mother she is, how special she is, how well she does.... Who is?


Ok that's a very good point.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> I don't feel like I am constantly tugging on her - at least not anymore.
> 
> One of the things she told the counsellor she needs is more communication - I'm trying to honour that so it is difficult not to talk about these things.


While open communication is good, many women are actually turned off by a man who repeatedly starts discussions about their emotions or the state of the relationship. So you may need to balance being open to communication while not raising the issue yourself (or at least not very often).



> She also told her that she needs to feel more appreciated - this is difficult at the moment because under the current circumstances she's not really doing anything for me.


I believe that you said she works three days a week. What does she do with the rest of the time? If she is tackling things around the house, then a sincere thank you when she does a chore gives you that opportunity. Again, you need balance by not thanking her for everything, while still being on the look out for things.


----------



## Intact27

Yes I agree - that was something the counsellor told me I had to do - take my share of the housework - I always felt I did until my Wife listed everything she does around the house - it embarrassed me quite frankly.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> Yes I agree - that was something the counsellor told me I had to do - take my share of the housework - I always felt I did until my Wife listed everything she does around the house - it embarrassed me quite frankly.


Could you clarify what she does during the day? If she is working three days a week, how many hours is that? How many hours do you work? 

My initial reaction (based on you noting that she worked two hours then spent the rest of the day shopping) is that she should be doing more of the hosue work, but getting a better understanding of available time would help clarify that.


----------



## Intact27

Well I work from home so it's easier for me... 

She works 3 days a week 9-5.30 then 1 morning every other week 9-1.30

She also does some voluntary work at my Sons school (that would of been the 3 hours). She has done too much over the course of our marriage.

She has done all of the cooking, washing, ironing and most of the cleaning... I have started doing a lot more around the house when I get a spare bit of time during the day, and I cooked tea for us tonight... She was nice and chatty just about her day etc.

I also bought her a small gift (just a DVD box set) but she seemed genuinely pleased.

Before anyone says it; I know I should of been doing these things before - and they may well turn out to be too little too late but I have to try.

EDIT: I asked her earlier if she'd like to go for a walk tomorrow and she didn't frown at the idea, just said "yeah that would be nice if the weather is ok"

Also, when I said she went "shopping" I was referring too grocery shopping rather than luxuries... She also mentioned that in counselling - that she'd asked me to go with her to do the grocery shop in the past and I haven't - so it's all been down too her.


----------



## captainkbt

Intact27 said:


> I don't feel like I am constantly tugging on her - at least not anymore.
> 
> One of the things she told the counsellor she needs is more communication - I'm trying to honour that so it is difficult not to talk about these things.
> 
> She also told her that she needs to feel more appreciated - this is difficult at the moment because under the current circumstances she's not really doing anything for me.



Your thread caught my eye because I went through a similar situation with my wife and I know what you are going through. I have read through all these posts and there is some good advice and some bad. 

In reality, if you want this to work or rebound you are going to have to give in to alot and sacrifice. If it is just a midlife crisis or if she really does feel shes lost it for you, you are going to have to do much work to right the ship. My advice....and what worked for me after much research.

A) Research this problem. The fact that you are asking for advice tells me you are on the right path here. You cant make good decisions without good information. And your decision, and her acceptance for MC is great. My wife wanted nothing to do with it. Get the right information and make the right decisions that you can look back at and live with years from now.

B) Give her, and respect the space she needs. She wants nothing to do with you and if you are clingy and demanding it will only push her farther away. Hopefully she will notice your respect and that will give her a positive message and a step in the right direction.

C) BE HAPPY (or at least give that appearance)!! I capitalized that because it is extremely important for her and you. I know it is much easier said than done when you are hurting inside. But trust me, women gravitate towards confidence and positivity. She is not going to notice you again if you are always angry and/or meloncholy.

D) NOTICE things. Capitalized again for importance. Noticing what women like and what makes them tick is a big difficiency among men. Learn these things. What does she enjoy doing? What does she enjoy YOU doing? Learn what that is and foster that no matter how much you hate it. I noticed my wife loves it when I, for no particular reason, do one of her chores around the house for her on my day off while she is at work. She likes quaint lunches at girly restaraunts on weekdays while the kids are at school. I hate that, but do it anyway.....and you better act like its no problem.

E) Complement her on small things or in small ways. Dont over do it or get mushy or deep. Just a "you look nice today" or a "thanks for cooking dinner, its great" ....even if it isnt.

F) Be honest with her when she does want to talk. Tell her what you want and how you feel WITHOUT ACCUSATORY comments. Dont push her into a corner by pointing fingers and assigning blame. If you do need to point out bad behavior or things you dont agree with, put it into terms like "when you do this _____ , if makes me feel like ______ ." If couples can learn how to communicate RESPECTFULLY and with a degree of empathy for each other they have 99.99% of the problems solved. But again, thats usually easier said than done.

G) Always move forward. Regardless of who is at fault, put away the past and and assigning blame to figure out how to positively move forward.

H) And probably the most important....BE ASSERTIVE AND DONT BE HER DOORMAT.
If you have honestly made an effort to work at this relationship, respected her feelings, and made every attempt to put your relationship on a positive footing, she should not still degrade or belittle you. Stand up and be proud of loving your wife and wanting to make things work. And tell her you have no apologies for that, since that is your duty as a loving husband. My wife use to make me feel guilty and ridicule me for wanting to romance and be intimate with her. I finally came to the realization that thats what I was supposed to do and there were millions of women who would give a limb to have that. I told that I loved her more than anything and I would not make any apologies for acting like it.

I) Let her go. If you feel you have done everything you can and know you can be satisfied with your actions even when you look back years from now, then let her go. You cant make someone do something or act in a way they dont want to so dont even try to force it. 

When I did what I described above and when I vocalized my willingness to let her go in the absence of nothing left to do since everything had been attempted strange things started to happen. Human nature is a mysterious thing. We want things to want us and when we feel we have them we tend to feel we dont want them anymore and take them for granted, but when we feel they are slipping away again then we want them again. She started responding like she had fallen in love with me again and its been great ever since. Sure, she needs a little assertiveness to remind her once in a while that I will not be her doormat or punching bag, but dont we all? It takes much work from both.....

Good luck.....


----------



## Intact27

Thanks Captain, that sounds great advice and very much sounds like things I am doing - it's taken me a while to get here and get past the crying, begging mess I was.

I tend to store things now if things really annoy me - ready to mention them in our counselling sessions...

I hope above hope that my marriage gets through this. We still get on well (even though there's no intimacy what so ever) so surely there must be a tiny bit of hope?


----------



## captainkbt

Intact27 said:


> Thanks Captain, that sounds great advice and very much sounds like things I am doing - it's taken me a while to get here and get past the crying, begging mess I was.
> 
> I tend to store things now if things really annoy me - ready to mention them in our counselling sessions...
> 
> I hope above hope that my marriage gets through this. We still get on well (even though there's no intimacy what so ever) so surely there must be a tiny bit of hope?


You will get through it either way. Just make sure your efforts are in a way you can be proud of......that you did everything you can. If it doesnt work, one day you will have to explain to your son what happened. My parents divorced when I was 10. I dont look upon my father in a favorable light for what he put my mother through. 

Good movie to watch...."Fireproof".....


----------



## turnera

Do you know her love languages?

Have you done the Love Buster questionnaire?


----------



## Intact27

I believe her love language is touch - not much I can do about this I'm afraid at the moment


----------



## turnera

There are usually more than one. And you should find out, not just guess. LB questionnaire? EN questionnaire?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> Well I work from home so it's easier for me...
> 
> She works 3 days a week 9-5.30 then 1 morning every other week 9-1.30


So she is working about 30 hours a week. What are your work hours?



> She also does some voluntary work at my Sons school (that would of been the 3 hours). She has done too much over the course of our marriage.


What do you mean by too much?



> She has done all of the cooking, washing, ironing and most of the cleaning... I have started doing a lot more around the house when I get a spare bit of time during the day, and I cooked tea for us tonight... She was nice and chatty just about her day etc.
> 
> I also bought her a small gift (just a DVD box set) but she seemed genuinely pleased.
> 
> Before anyone says it; I know I should of been doing these things before - and they may well turn out to be too little too late but I have to try.


Perhaps. What have your work hours been and how much "free time" do you have during the day? 



> EDIT: I asked her earlier if she'd like to go for a walk tomorrow and she didn't frown at the idea, just said "yeah that would be nice if the weather is ok"
> 
> Also, when I said she went "shopping" I was referring too grocery shopping rather than luxuries... She also mentioned that in counselling - that she'd asked me to go with her to do the grocery shop in the past and I haven't - so it's all been down too her.


If she needs you to spend time with her, doing it while attending to the chores can work really well. I get great time with my wife doing the dishes together. The kids stay scarce and we get time to talk while accomplishing something.


----------



## Intact27

By "too much" I meant that I have let her do too many of the household chores every day...

I work for myself so its fits and starts. I can be very busy, or reasonably quiet.

I have ample time to help out with the housework which i have started doing. (Again, possibly too little too late).


----------



## Viseral

Did you read The Married Man Sex Life yet?

Do it!


----------



## Hicks

The way you find out her love language is Trial and Error.

Do not ask her to read a book fill out a questionare or tell you what you should be doing. Your wife doesn't want to tell you... She wants you to know her... She wants you to figure it out. Or at least try to figure it out. If you try things and cannot discover it then it's appropriate to take it further by asking.

By the way, if she is complaining about your lack fo chores, you are probably looking at "Acts of Service", as one of her love languages.

Captain gave you great, fantastic advice above. Did you see his "D"... Notice Things... That's what you need to do... as well as all the other items he listed. That should be your mode / plan.


----------



## Intact27

Yes after our meeting with the counsellor I very much think acts of service is one of her main love languages... I am working hard on this. No improvements as of yet on her part but we only went to our first marriage counselling session 2 days ago...


----------



## turnera

I often advise people to take the questionnaires 'for' their spouse. You usually know a great deal more than you think you do. The Q's help you focus on what you are and aren't doing, though, so you have a plan.


----------



## turnera

Remember that women are notoriously slow to change their mind. She has to feel safe with you, and that is gone for now. It will take a long time before she feels safe enough to trust you or feel for you.


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> Remember that women are notoriously slow to change their mind. She has to feel safe with you, and that is gone for now. It will take a long time before she feels safe enough to trust you or feel for you.


Yes I do think that's where we are at the moment.

I have started to make the changes I needed to make - there are 3 issues I guess she has with this. 

1. I haven't been doing it very long - so it's hard to gauge.
2. It's simply too little too late.
3. She fears I will slip into my "old ways" and this new me is temporary.


----------



## Hicks

All covered in Captains' post.

There are no guarantees that she will ever come around.

And your list 1,2,3 is very valid...You are right in your thought process. All you can do is stay the course permanently.

And, it will take many months for her to really feel differently, if she ever does. Be patient. Do not constantly look for a big change.

Just do little things and notice if they make a difference to her.. A zillion little things will add up to something big... Process takes time.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> I believe her love language is touch - not much I can do about this I'm afraid at the moment


Then my humble advice is to give your love through gifts. Not over the top extravagant but personal and meaningful. Also, regarding not being able to compliment her on what she is not doing, I'm sure that when you were dating around, you were more than able to compliment women who gave you very little to work with. Bring these old skills back and use them now.


----------



## Intact27

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Then my humble advice is to give your love through gifts. Not over the top extravagant but personal and meaningful. Also, regarding not being able to compliment her on what she is not doing, I'm sure that when you were dating around, you were more than able to compliment women who gave you very little to work with. Bring these old skills back and use them now.


That's very good advice - thank you.


----------



## Intact27

Damned if I do, damned if I don't...

So as discussed with the counsellor I need to do more around the house... Which I have been.

My wife looked at me really upset tonight and said it hurts her that I have done everything around the house because it has shown her that I could live here on my own with our Son without needing her...

I thought it was odd as this is what she asked for... She also told me that she still finds spending time with me difficult and then spoke about how her family are touchy feely (hugs etc) and mine aren't. She said I came too you so many times for a kiss or a cuddle and you constantly pushed me away until I lost interest. She then said that "even if we make it throug this" she's not sure she would ever be able to get that back. I just told her I was sorry she felt like that but if we get that far forward it is something extra counselling could help us with...

It's odd because for the most part everything she was saying was rather negative yet it seemed like quite a positive conversation.

If nothing else at least we are communicating. She did say "it's harder for me to be optimistic because I'm the one who doesn't have feelings for you" I could of gone mad at this, I felt it, but I just listened and kept my mouth shut...

Easier for her... The cheek of it!


----------



## happyman64

Be positive.

Keep encouraging her to interact with you and as a family.

And keep working on you.

No matter what the outcome to your marriage is you will be a better person.

Make it hard for her to give you up!!!


----------



## Intact27

happyman64 said:


> Be positive.
> 
> Keep encouraging her to interact with you and as a family.
> 
> And keep working on you.
> 
> No matter what the outcome to your marriage is you will be a better person.
> 
> Make it hard for her to give you up!!!


Thanks I think that's good advice. I'm under no illusion the only reason she is still here is because of our little family...

As suggested in an earlier post I told her tonight "I'm proud that I'm here working to save my marriage and keep our family together, it's what good husbands do, and I won't apologise for it" she seemed a little taken aback and just sincerely told me "I'm glad you're proud, it's nice to be proud of yourself sometimes".

Odd stuff round here...


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## turnera

Right now, you need to NOT pay attention to anything she says. SHE doesn't know what she means or wants, any more than YOU do. Steady course, do what you know you should be doing, and only dive in to reassess every few weeks.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> My wife looked at me really upset tonight and said it hurts her that I have done everything around the house because it has shown her that I could live here on my own with our Son without needing her...
> 
> She also told me that she still finds spending time with me difficult and then spoke about how her family are touchy feely (hugs etc) and mine aren't. She said I came too you so many times for a kiss or a cuddle and you constantly pushed me away until I lost interest. She then said that "even if we make it throug this" she's not sure she would ever be able to get that back. I just told her I was sorry she felt like that but if we get that far forward it is something extra counselling could help us with...
> 
> "it's harder for me to be optimistic because I'm the one who doesn't have feelings for you" I could of gone mad at this, I felt it, but I just listened and kept my mouth shut...


It is very positive to see her being able to share her internal state with you. And even more positive that you listened and said nothing.

Turn up the affection level with your son. Hug him in the morning and evening and every time you see him. Hold hands, kiss his cheek, tell him you love him at every opportunity. Then watch how this brings your wife right back into the fold


----------



## Intact27

Ten_year_hubby said:


> It is very positive to see her being able to share her internal state with you. And even more positive that you listened and said nothing.
> 
> Turn up the affection level with your son. Hug him in the morning and evening and every time you see him. Hold hands, kiss his cheek, tell him you love him at every opportunity. Then watch how this brings your wife right back into the fold


Really? Could that actually achieve something? I'm pretty affectionate with my son anyway...

And actually this conversation happened after I'd been snuggled up on the sofa with my son.


----------



## Viseral

We're giving intact mixed signals.

My spidey senses are telling me that it's not wise for Intact to be doing things for his wife right now. Kissing her feet is such a turn off.

She wants a man, not a puppy dog. And I believe that counsellor is giving him bad advice too. She sounds like she's spewing out liberal feminist nonsense that the way for men to attract women is to do more things for them. It's not.

Quote from The Married Man Sex Life:

"I also know that apart from your hobbies, pretty much everything else in your life is just another hoop that you have to jump through to get back to having sex with her. When you jump through all of those hoops and the sex just doesn't happen like you think it should, you get hurt...you get angry...but mostly you're confused.

You're confused because you think you're doing the right things for her, because she probably tells you that's what she wants you to do. Then everyone tells you that women are complicated and so hard to understand that a regular guy doesn't really have a hope of figuring them out. 

Then a small army of experts will tell you that your problem is you're not jumping through enough of her hoops! Then when your sex life starts tanking, they all tell you that a declining sex life is normal in marriage.

Sometimes in the middle of all this she can walk out on you, cheat on you or tell you to leave. So while I'm all about getting you laid like tile, there are also serious situations we have to address as well. I'm going to show you how to make the good stuff happen and the bad stuff not happen."


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> Really? Could that actually achieve something? I'm pretty affectionate with my son anyway...
> 
> And actually this conversation happened after I'd been snuggled up on the sofa with my son.


I'm not quite understanding how your wife claims she came to you many times for a kiss or a cuddle and you pushed her away while at the same time you are on the more affectionate side with your son? Were you withholding from your wife? Anyway, I still recommend turning up the affection toward your sun unless you are already over the top. It's one of those things that is hard to overdo.


----------



## Intact27

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I'm not quite understanding how your wife claims she came to you many times for a kiss or a cuddle and you pushed her away while at the same time you are on the more affectionate side with your son? Were you withholding from your wife? Anyway, I still recommend turning up the affection toward your sun unless you are already over the top. It's one of those things that is hard to overdo.


I can't honestly answer that. I remember plenty of times I pushed her away unfortunately. Embarrassingly I think I only ever made physical contact when I was after sex - I'm ashamed to admit that now.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> I can't honestly answer that. I remember plenty of times I pushed her away unfortunately. Embarrassingly I think I only ever made physical contact when I was after sex - I'm ashamed to admit that now.


Have you apologized for your pushing her away and acknowledged the pain you caused? Asked her to forgive you and promised not to do it again?


----------



## turnera

Intact27 said:


> I can't honestly answer that. I remember plenty of times I pushed her away unfortunately. Embarrassingly I think I only ever made physical contact when I was after sex - I'm ashamed to admit that now.


 She REALLY really needs to hear that.

How do you make up for that? Find a million ways to initiate contact that does NOT lead to sex. And I do mean a million. A touch on the shoulder as you squeeze past her in the bathroom. Fix her straggling hair. Hand her something and hold the touch for a second. Just squeeze her shoulders for a second as you leave the room. Stuff that doesn't LEAD anywhere gives her warm fuzzies but also makes her feel safer around you to just be herself and not have it turned into a grabfest. Plus it shows you are not needy and are ok just being around her.


----------



## Intact27

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Have you apologized for your pushing her away and acknowledged the pain you caused? Asked her to forgive you and promised not to do it again?


I have indeed but think it was likely seen as too little too late... Maybe I should apologise again?


----------



## turnera

No, you should instead talk about what you have learned. WHY you would apologize, what you know now that she must have felt, how hard it must have been for her, and why you now won't let it happen again.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> I have indeed but think it was likely seen as too little too late... Maybe I should apologise again?


Ask her directly if she holds this against you. If she says yes, then ask her what you can do to make it up to her and ask her to forgive you. Resolve to make it up to her whether she tells you how or not and make your intent known


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> No, you should instead talk about what you have learned. WHY you would apologize, what you know now that she must have felt, how hard it must have been for her, and why you now won't let it happen again.


I said all this tonight as she rolled over to go to sleep. I also said that I hope one day you will forgive me for it. "I'll try" she said.


----------



## WillPrez

I think you should take canceling form marriage counselor he cal advised you to reconnect with your marriage..


----------



## Intact27

Well she called me "sweetheart" this morning. I'm sure it was probably just a mistake or slip of the tongue, but it felt nice too hear.


----------



## Intact27

Things seems so strange - think I'm having a bit of a down day...

When we're home together we get along well. We talk a lot - about usual rubbish, whats happened in our day as well as our relationship and it all seems to go quite well... But its things like she never calls me during her lunch hour anymore - she always used too - and I just find it a little upsetting.


----------



## Hicks

Stop apologizing. You can't "talk away" everything you ever did wrong. Just know what you did wrong and stop doing it... You acting better over a period of time is the only thing that will matter to her.

Also, stop seeking her approval. You are looking at everything she does to validate whether she still likes / loves / wants you... Huge turn off to her.

You can't afford down days. Understanding your clear path to improvement, working that... That is what needs to give you happiness. Not your wife's approval.


----------



## Intact27

Hicks said:


> Stop apologizing. You can't "talk away" everything you ever did wrong. Just know what you did wrong and stop doing it... You acting better over a period of time is the only thing that will matter to her.
> 
> Also, stop seeking her approval. You are looking at everything she does to validate whether she still likes / loves / wants you... Huge turn off to her.
> 
> You can't afford down days. Understanding your clear path to improvement, working that... That is what needs to give you happiness. Not your wife's approval.


I don't think I've over apologised by any means - there are quite obviously things that I need to apologise for though.


----------



## turnera

But it's better not to do it directly. Instead, work it into a conversation. Helping her do dishes, 'you know, I realize now how many times I just sat on the couch and let you do the dishes every night. I bet that was aggravating, huh?'

See how you apologized without begging?


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> But it's better not to do it directly. Instead, work it into a conversation. Helping her do dishes, 'you know, I realize now how many times I just sat on the couch and let you do the dishes every night. I bet that was aggravating, huh?'
> 
> See how you apologized without begging?


Yes I understand. That's good advice thank you.

Bit of advice if you don't mind: A couple of days ago she told me that she hated how I went out with friends whenever I wanted yet she couldn't afford to buy herself nice clothes etc - again, I'm ashamed but it's true...

Do you think it would be out of order if I bought her a dress that I know she loves - if I make clear it's an apology and not a way of me trying to buy her affection?


----------



## anchorwatch

Intact27 said:


> Do you think it would be out of order if I bought her a dress that I know she loves - *if I make clear it's an apology* and not a way of me trying to buy her affection?


Do it!


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> Do it!


Thank you, I'll order it now.


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## Hicks

I would take her out.. And go shopping, and encourage her to buy clothes... Then tell her how good she looks in them.. And don't hug her or ask her for anything... Let your good deed stand on itself.

If she is shut down to going out shoppoing with you, I would encorage her to go out herself to buy something while you stay home and keep.. 

Buying a gift separeate from clothes that she 'needs' would be a better idea.


----------



## turnera

How do you know it's the one she wants?


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> How do you know it's the one she wants?


It's one by a designer she loves but has never purchased it because of the cost of it. I remember her saying in the past that she would love one of her dresses...


----------



## Intact27

What I don't understand is when we are at home together we get on really well. We laugh, talk and it all seems ok, trouble is she seems to avoid coming home whenever she can - she spends a lot of time at her mums house who lives just down the road - so I know she's there...

Is she avoiding me? Does she need space? Is she confused because we get on so well when we are together?


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## turnera

She feels something...bad when she's around you - so she avoids that feeling. Once she gets there, she realizes it isn't as bad as she imagined.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> Do you think it would be out of order if I bought her a dress that I know she loves - if I make clear it's an apology and not a way of me trying to buy her affection?


I think more gifts and less talk could be very helpful


----------



## turnera

I forget - do you know her love languages? Emotional Needs?


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> She feels something...bad when she's around you - so she avoids that feeling. Once she gets there, she realizes it isn't as bad as she imagined.


I wonder why she feels something bad?


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> I forget - do you know her love languages? Emotional Needs?


I think they are touch and acts of kindness - I am working on both although touch is difficult as she's asked for no contact.


----------



## anchorwatch

From what you describe from her complaints Act of service and Gifts sound like they are up there. But then again you've been keeping all of them from her for a while, so anything now will be an improvement.


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> From what you describe from her complaints Act of service and Gifts sound like their up there. But then again you've been keeping all of them from her for a while, so anything now will be an improvement.


This is very true I'm embarrassed to say


----------



## turnera

Intact27 said:


> I wonder why she feels something bad?


 These can be really subtle. If, say, my husband gets mad on trash day cos they leave trash behind and he's in a bad mood every Thursday when I get home from work...then I don't want to come home on Thursdays.

If my H is a perfectionist and when I cook dinner he comes up behind me and 'fixes' the spices in the spaghetti sauce, it causes me stress, doubt, and harms my self esteem. So I, over time, dread coming home and cooking, because I 'know' I'll have to be in the kitchen while he 'corrects' me. So I dread coming home unless we won't be cooking like that.

The key is to finding out what these subtle things are.


----------



## turnera

Intact27 said:


> I think they are touch and acts of kindness - I am working on both although touch is difficult as she's asked for no contact.


 Have you asked her to fill out a questionnaire yet?


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> Have you asked her to fill out a questionnaire yet?


I really think she would just sneer at that idea at the time being. 

It makes her really mad if I say "I read such and such on the web" regarding our current situation.


----------



## turnera

Then fill it out yourself. Lots of people do. At least then you wouldn't just be flailing all over the place.


----------



## Intact27

I did fill it in and found that touch was her primary followed by acts of kindness.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> I wonder why she feels something bad?


If you routinely turned away from her when she reached out for affection, the sting of these rejections over a period of time may have left her feeling bitter


----------



## Intact27

Ten_year_hubby said:


> If you routinely turned away from her when she reached out for affection, the sting of these rejections over a period of time may have left her feeling bitter


Yes I think this has happened.


----------



## Intact27

I was thinking about this whole "love" thing and I think if I had to break it down I'd say 50% of the love I have for my wife, is love for how she is a mother to our son (if that makes any sense?) that winds me up because I know I've made mistakes in my marriage but the one thing I can proudly say is I have been a fantastic dad...

Surely, women must have some love for their partners from the way they parent their children?


----------



## Intact27

2nd marriage counselling session today and not much change really. My wife still says she is only commited to working on our marriage for the sake of our son which is hard to hear...

The counsellor spoke a lot about love languages and confirmed that hers is touch. Also said my wife needs to find a way to get rid of the anger before we can truly move on.

It's just all so difficult at the moment.

Her new dress has arrived today so I will give her that later and see how she responds.

I think a lot of this hinges on forgiveness. She did say today that she can't forgive me yet, as she can't even forgive herself (for not mentioning things earlier).


The other thing she said today to the counsellor was that she feels exactly the same as she did this time last week... This hurt me, I mean I'm not expecting instant results but I've tried everything and it feels like its gotten me nowhere.


----------



## turnera

It takes a LONG time for a woman's feelings to change. Months, at least.


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> It takes a LONG time for a woman's feelings to change. Months, at least.


I get that, but surely she could have said "things have seemed a little better this week"? I know it will take time and I know I have to prepare for it I just wish there was a magic formula...

Do you think several months then for a woman to start changing her mind?


----------



## turnera

She has no desire to (1) make you feel good or (2) lead you on.


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> She has no desire to (1) make you feel good or (2) lead you on.


Yes I agree, but how do I change that? Is at simple as carry on with what I'm doing and be patient?


----------



## turnera

What books have you read?


----------



## OnTheRocks

Maybe you've stopped groveling, but it still seems like you're still just focusing on kissing her azz. What are you doing to better yourself right now? The odds are probably 1:10 that she will come back to the marriage. Hope for the best, but plan for the worst. 

I still say she's most likely involved in some kind of A. This is all too familiar of a storyline. Are you vigilant on that front?


----------



## turnera

Intact27 said:


> Yes I agree, but how do I change that? Is at simple as carry on with what I'm doing and be patient?


 More like work on YOUR stuff - fill your life with things YOU love, and start loving life more, so that (1) she'll admire how confident you are and want to be with you and (2) even if she doesn't, you are fixing YOUR life so it won't matter so much if she flakes out on you.

Stop wallowing about whether she wants you or not.


----------



## captainkbt

turnera said:


> More like work on YOUR stuff - fill your life with things YOU love, and start loving life more, so that (1) she'll admire how confident you are and want to be with you and (2) even if she doesn't, you are fixing YOUR life so it won't matter so much if she flakes out on you.
> 
> Stop wallowing about whether she wants you or not.


Exactly!!.....great advice.


----------



## Intact27

I am doing all of this stuff - I am being happy and confident - at least in front of her - but it's very difficult to be optimistic when my families well being is evidently hanging by a thread.


----------



## Intact27

In answer to the previous question I have currently read the books 'divorce busting' and 'I love you but I'm not in love with you'


----------



## OnTheRocks

You need to make an effort to stop analyzing and hanging on to her every word. Be cool with her, and work hard on your happiness. Be someone she wants to be with, but also accept the fact that your marriage is probably done, and plan accordingly. 

I know how painful all this is. 1.5 years ago I was right where you are. The loss of my family still hurts, although not nearly as much these days. When I look at my ex now, though, she is repulsive to me as far as relationship material.


----------



## dallasapple

I've read pretty much your whole thread.1st I would like to say I commend you for looking deeper at your marriage and the dynamics of the past to try and understand rather than assuming your wife is "simply" having a MID life crisis and or including an affair.Yes that can happen or be the "reason' a woman falls out of love but definately that is not the pat answer.Many women fall out of love well before mid life for one and 2 many women who do divorce around midlife have been unhappy or out of love for a long time and just stuck it out until the kids were older and for many that is in fact around mid life.

I "think" I'm picking up some things based on your wife's comments .1st in counseling she pretty much said what her love language is or at least main ones..She said she didn't "feel" appreciated and she in a nutshell felt taken for granted over acts of service.Also I picked up on her saying she requested you go shopping with her?(grocerys) she was wanting quality time.For her shopping together was one way to get some of that in .Also the obvious she felt rejected when you were too busy to just hug her and or give her non sexual physical affection .

The need to feel appreciated and admired .Can be verbal or small gifts (as you have seen she was happy to get the CD's ) that tells her you are thinking of her and you felt she "deserved" something for herself just for her.

Here is the issue.What she is stating she "needs" is really in a sense "past tense" and more of the "reasons" she lost her connection with you ..Now the "longing' for those things is dimished or gone because of neglect in those areas.So you trying to do those now its not that its "too little too late" its her "longing" and desiring them is gone so when you do them its almost like "why bother I stopped "needing' those things a long time ago"..I gave up expecting them.She may be wondering "why now"? Why when it doesn't matter anymore?She may and probably does believe that you are only doing those things to get what you want.Not because you genuinely care to make her feel loved and cherished and appreciated.Especially then you make comments like "its hard to appreciate her when she isn't doing much FOR ME to appreciate".As mentioned she wants to be appreciated for many aspects of her "goodness" and hard work and just for her good qualities or talents and attributes and character traits.Not just "what she does for you".Pretty much simply what you like about her or admire what "draws you to her" above the rest of the ladies and it cant just be all about what she "does" for you .

Just like you want to be acknowledged as a "fantastic dad".

I disagree with the stop talking and just "do".You need to do both one of her comments in counseling was lack of communication .She needs to "hear" in your words that you get it .You understand the breakdown see clearly your errors even if not "intentional" to hurt her and validate her needs/desires as normal and important.And you have confidence if given the opportunity you can do better.

Oh on the her getting upset you cleaned the whole house etc.? Thats a balance.She wants to you to help out but not show she is not needed.Again that goes to affirming her and appreciating her.Do more but don't take over her "role".And offer to help when you are free if she is performing a task.Cooking was mentioned...dishes..folding laundrey etc..Thats being supportive and helpful and for her I also believe "quality " time with you ...


----------



## dallasapple

OnTheRocks said:


> You need to make an effort to stop analyzing and hanging on to her every word. Be cool with her, and work hard on your happiness. Be someone she wants to be with, but also accept the fact that your marriage is probably done, and plan accordingly.
> 
> I know how painful all this is. 1.5 years ago I was right where you are. The loss of my family still hurts, although not nearly as much these days. When I look at my ex now, though, she is repulsive to me as far as relationship material.


I don't think he should hang on her every word.But I disagree its "analyzing' to try and understand what she is trying to communicate.Maybe before this she tried and he didn't pay attention enough.And that's why she went numb inside and stopped caring.


----------



## turnera

Ok, then the next book you need to read is Married Man Sex Life Primer (not about sex). It will help you understand what a man's role IS in a marriage, so you can get it back on an even keel.


----------



## dallasapple

> Well she called me "sweetheart" this morning. I'm sure it was probably just a mistake or slip of the tongue, but it felt nice too hear.


That may or may not be code for "keep it up in the direction you are going".That's a term of endearment.You could be reawakening her "good feelings" towards you .(I pray anyway)


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> I've read pretty much your whole thread.1st I would like to say I commend you for looking deeper at your marriage and the dynamics of the past to try and understand rather than assuming your wife is "simply" having a MID life crisis and or including an affair.Yes that can happen or be the "reason' a woman falls out of love but definately that is not the pat answer.Many women fall out of love well before mid life for one and 2 many women who do divorce around midlife have been unhappy or out of love for a long time and just stuck it out until the kids were older and for many that is in fact around mid life.
> 
> I "think" I'm picking up some things based on your wife's comments .1st in counseling she pretty much said what her love language is or at least main ones..She said she didn't "feel" appreciated and she in a nutshell felt taken for granted over acts of service.Also I picked up on her saying she requested you go shopping with her?(grocerys) she was wanting quality time.For her shopping together was one way to get some of that in .Also the obvious she felt rejected when you were too busy to just hug her and or give her non sexual physical affection .
> 
> The need to feel appreciated and admired .Can be verbal or small gifts (as you have seen she was happy to get the CD's ) that tells her you are thinking of her and you felt she "deserved" something for herself just for her.
> 
> Here is the issue.What she is stating she "needs" is really in a sense "past tense" and more of the "reasons" she lost her connection with you ..Now the "longing' for those things is dimished or gone because of neglect in those areas.So you trying to do those now its not that its "too little too late" its her "longing" and desiring them is gone so when you do them its almost like "why bother I stopped "needing' those things a long time ago"..I gave up expecting them.She may be wondering "why now"? Why when it doesn't matter anymore?She may and probably does believe that you are only doing those things to get what you want.Not because you genuinely care to make her feel loved and cherished and appreciated.Especially then you make comments like "its hard to appreciate her when she isn't doing much FOR ME to appreciate".As mentioned she wants to be appreciated for many aspects of her "goodness" and hard work and just for her good qualities or talents and attributes and character traits.Not just "what she does for you".Pretty much simply what you like about her or admire what "draws you to her" above the rest of the ladies and it cant just be all about what she "does" for you .
> 
> Just like you want to be acknowledged as a "fantastic dad".
> 
> I disagree with the stop talking and just "do".You need to do both one of her comments in counseling was lack of communication .She needs to "hear" in your words that you get it .You understand the breakdown see clearly your errors even if not "intentional" to hurt her and validate her needs/desires as normal and important.And you have confidence if given the opportunity you can do better.
> 
> Oh on the her getting upset you cleaned the whole house etc.? Thats a balance.She wants to you to help out but not show she is not needed.Again that goes to affirming her and appreciating her.Do more but don't take over her "role".And offer to help when you are free if she is performing a task.Cooking was mentioned...dishes..folding laundrey etc..Thats being supportive and helpful and for her I also believe "quality " time with you ...


Thank you I really appreciate your advice and the time it must have taken to type this... I think you're quite right and the things I'm doing now aren't necessarily needed by her anymore.

I only hope that if I continue to meet what were her needs it may turn her head enough.

I agree with other posters too in that it is probably very likely my marriage is over - this i obviously find deeply upsetting but I feel I can't give up until it is final.


----------



## dallasapple

> Thank you I really appreciate your advice and the time it must have taken to type this... I think you're quite right and the things I'm doing now aren't necessarily needed by her anymore.
> 
> I only hope that if I continue to meet what were her needs it may turn her head enough.
> 
> I agree with other posters too in that it is probably very likely my marriage is over - this i obviously find deeply upsetting but I feel I can't give up until it is final.


You're welcome.Im one of those its never too late until we are dead kind of people LOL!!(with exceptions).And again I commend you for looking deeper than she's just being a hardcore selfish B*** and I'll "up my game" by showing her I can get all the hot babes I want or packing her suitcase and putting her out.Not every woman is a mean spiteful witch that's just a power monger who wants to control her man.Sometimes we are just truly that hurt even if its from subtle but yet chronic neglect.

You obviously love your wife just made some mistakes for too long I'm rooting for ya'll and praying she will see how much you love her and can get a little "spark" back in there for you that ya'll can fan and build a bonfire together!


----------



## dallasapple

One other thing.As far as "manning it up"..You manned it up IMHO on the first few pages of this thread when you scoffed at the idea of going out and getting "babes"you said 'Im a married man and it may not be important to some but it is to me"..you also said you were "in love with your wife"..Thats a man.Direct confident and honorable.I think I clapped..LOL!!

So that's a hint how to talk to your wife.Its not door matty ..its not groveling..to say Im standing for my marriage and I'm fighting for our relationship..I do NOT want a divorce.because I love you and I;m committed to you that's why I married you in the first place God damn it! :LOL!!I'll survive without you but I don't want to.


----------



## Intact27

Thanks Dallasapple - that's great advice again.

I gave her the dress last night and she absolutely loved it - it bought a tear to her eye.

She gave me 2 long hugs. Later on I made the stupid mistake of asking her if she hugged me because she wanted to. (I could kick myself for that) she just replied "a little bit".


----------



## Intact27

Ok I suspect there is no answer to this, but I'm going to ask anyway...

If a woman sees enoug change in you, how long on average do you think it should take her to start changing her mind about you/your relationship?


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Thanks Dallasapple - that's great advice again.
> 
> I gave her the dress last night and she absolutely loved it - it bought a tear to her eye.
> 
> She gave me 2 long hugs. Later on I made the stupid mistake of asking her if she hugged me because she wanted to. (I could kick myself for that) she just replied "a little bit".


This is great! Good job!


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Ok I suspect there is no answer to this, but I'm going to ask anyway...
> 
> If a woman sees enough change in you, how long on average do you think it should take her to start changing her mind about you/your relationship?


There is absolutely no way to answer that.Every one is different.But she has already gone from "no chance" to "I'll try"(to forgive you) to " a little bit" (that she wanted to hug you ) from "I only did that for you "

Think how long and gradually it took to chip away at her feelings of love for you ? So just think "baby steps" .You know the saying nothing worth having comes easy?


----------



## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> Ok I suspect there is no answer to this, but I'm going to ask anyway...
> 
> If a woman sees enoug change in you, how long on average do you think it should take her to start changing her mind about you/your relationship?


Intact

Thank God you are not a farmer. You would be out front plowing the fields pulling the donkey team and the plow yourself.

Patience.
Patience.
Patience.

Not only will you drive her crazy but you are going to drive yourself crazy.

One day at a time my mn.

HM64


----------



## captainkbt

Intact27 said:


> I am doing all of this stuff - I am being happy and confident - at least in front of her - but it's very difficult to be optimistic when my families well being is evidently hanging by a thread.


No doubt.....no one said it was going to be easy. I think people sometimes lose perspective in how much mental, emotional,and physical work and discipline a relationship really is. Especially when youre the one doing all the work. And there is still no guarantee your efforts will be successful. Good luck.....


----------



## captainkbt

Intact27 said:


> Ok I suspect there is no answer to this, but I'm going to ask anyway...
> 
> If a woman sees enoug change in you, how long on average do you think it should take her to start changing her mind about you/your relationship?


If you really want it to work, this is not something you should be interested in knowing. You just keep doing doing what you have to do to be happy and the relationship positive, press on with the high road, and things will work themselves out. If they dont work out the way you wanted, you will have no regrets and can look in the mirror and be proud about taking the high road and doing everything you could. If they do work out the way you wanted, then you were successful.


----------



## anchorwatch

I'd say everyone is different. It took me months of trying things. 

It worked best when She didn't perceive me as making false changes to manipulate her feelings. That's when I made the changes because I liked what I was doing because it felt good to me. 

Stop asking her "How am I doing"


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> I'd say everyone is different. It took me months of trying things.
> 
> It worked best when She didn't perceive me as making false changes to manipulate her feelings. That's when I made the changes because I liked what I was doing because it felt good to me.
> 
> Stop asking her "How am I doing"


I don't ask her how I'm doing. I realise I may come across as weak but in front if her I'm really not - I think I use this forum to be weak...


----------



## dallasapple

captainkbt said:


> If you really want it to work, this is not something you should be interested in knowing. You just keep doing doing what you have to do to be happy and the relationship positive, press on with the high road, and things will work themselves out. If they dont work out the way you wanted, you will have no regrets and can look in the mirror and be proud about taking the high road and doing everything you could. If they do work out the way you wanted, then you were successful.


I agree its something you needed to change anyway.Its not like once (or if) she comes around you can relax in the sense the work is over.Its kind of like dieting to lose weight.It may take some 6 months to lose 100 lbs other 2 years..Regardless once you reach that goal your eating and excersize habits can't go back to your old ways.So knowing exactly what day or month you hit the goal sure would be nice to know but in the end it really doesn't make any difference to the lifestyle changes you have made to attain the goal.

I just have hope for ya'll because of your attitude and willingness to humble your self and make some changes.And she "seems" somewhat receptive to that in comparison to how she initially told you she felt.At the very least is seems to "want" to love you again.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I don't ask her how I'm doing. I realise I may come across as weak but in front if her I'm really not - I think I use this forum to be weak...


I don't see you as weak.It takes a strong person to be humble.


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> I don't see you as weak.It takes a strong person to be humble.


Thank you. I think in an ideal world she would want to love me - if nothing else but to keep our family together. I can also see how painful all of this is too her.

The changes I have made I intend to stick with - I guess I'm after reassurances that everything will be ok - when it is impossible for any to exist.


----------



## dallasapple

Oh and I also get it that you are using this forum though to vent some of your sadness and have more of a "brave face" on with her.I think you have mentioned that several times.There is nothing wrong with that its called friends and a shoulder to lean on .I'm sure your wife knows you are sad and worried inside or you wouldn't be trying so hard to keep her with you .Its o.k to verbalize that somewhere even if it cant be her right now..


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Thank you. I think in an ideal world she would want to love me - if nothing else but to keep our family together. I can also see how painful all of this is too her.
> 
> The changes I have made I intend to stick with - I guess I'm after reassurances that everything will be ok - when it is impossible for any to exist.


I understand you want her to give you some motivation to have "hope"..Hope is a powerful emotion and driving force it energizes us.Maybe she cant promise anything right now point blank.I think she is giving little "signs" that there is a "glimmer" of hope on her end inside somewhere...Maybe right now you are in the drivers seat to give her hope as she had lost all hope if that makes sense.

hang in there..


----------



## anchorwatch

Intact27 said:


> I don't ask her how I'm doing. I realise I may come across as weak but in front if her I'm really not - I think I use this forum to be weak...


I didn't mean that you asked her directly "How am I doing?" I meant that it can be obvious when you look to her for validation.


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> I didn't mean that you asked her directly "How am I doing?" I meant that it can be obvious when you look to her for validation.


Ah I see what you mean, thank you...

Sometimes I really want to shake her and tell her "look at what you're doing too our family - we could of fixed this!"

Still no point in trying to be anything but positive - at least in front of her.


----------



## Intact27

Well my wife of 9 years has just walked out on me and our son.

No big fight, no argument just the fact that she needs "space" and doesn't think she will ever love me again.

She has gone to her mothers for the night and says she will return tomorrow to talk.

I'm devastated.


----------



## anchorwatch

I know you think it's over, but it's not. It won't be until someone files for divorce and then not until a judge signs off on it. That could take a long time. She will have plenty of up and down moments during that time. Until then, stay the course!!! You can not control her. You can only control yourself. Continue the changes you've made to yourself. You know the reads, make them part of you now and into the future, no matter what she does.


----------



## Intact27

Thank you I appreciate your words but it certainly feels over right now.

She has literally walked out on me and our son - I couldn't even comprehend doing that.


----------



## OnTheRocks

Take notes and keep evidence if you have it. Abandonment will help your custody case.

And confirm she's really at her mother's, if you can.


----------



## anchorwatch

She's stressed, conflicted, scarred, it's all coming to fast and doesn't know what to do. So she's running. That's why you're the one that needs to hold on and show control, as hard as it may be.


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> She's stressed, conflicted, scarred, and doesn't know what to do. So she's running. That's why you're the one that needs to hold on and show control, as hard as it may be.


That makes sense - can I ask, how do you suggest I react tomorrow morning when she comes round to talk?


----------



## anchorwatch

Stay clam and in control of your emotions. Be prepared for what she may say. 

Assuming she can't bring herself to work on the M. I'd tell her I can't control what she thinks or does. I disagree that we or the marriage can't change for the better. I intend to continue to learn and work to improve myself and my family. 

In case she does expose another person. I'd say the same except that I won't tolerate a third party in the marriage. Since that brings a lot more to consider, come back and discuss what you want to do next.

"It ain't over till it's over" Y.B.


----------



## turnera

For one, REFUSE ADAMANTLY to allow her to take your son out of his house. She is free to move out, but your son STAYS IN HIS HOME. Scare the crap out of her. If she tries to take him, you will call the cops. 

Once that is resolved, do NOT beg her to come home. Hear her reasons, repeat them back to her, and ask her what her plans are. Do NOT offer to do anything. This is all on her. Tell her you will be here - for now - ready to talk. Offer to go to MC, IF - IF - she is not seeing another man.


----------



## Intact27

Yes I certainly won't let her leave with my son.

I believe 1 of 2 scenarios will happen tomorrow:

1. She will agree to really try to save our marriage.
2. And I think this is by far the most likely - she will tell me she is moving into her parents house and we need to sit down and tell our son.

Of course I'm guessing all if this from my male perspective so I could have it completely wrong.


----------



## Intact27

I have a feeling she will want us to tell our son tonight. Anyone have any advice? I know we need to be as sensitive as possible but it seems wrong for my son to blame me for anything when she is the walkaway wife.


----------



## turnera

Do NOT worry about who blames whom, ok? That is NOT to be part of your initial conversation with your son. Down the road, you can have that talk. For this first talk, all he wants to know is where he will live, how he will see both of you, how he will get to school, things like that.


----------



## Intact27

She came back today full of the "I will never love you and if I stayed with you it would just be a loveless, sexless marriage"

She has booked herself an emergency appointment with our counsellor (on her own) she goes later today but I'm not expecting anything to change.

I really am devastated.


----------



## Intact27

She says she doesnt know where she's staying tonight - if she stays at home any advice on how I should behave?


----------



## Intact27

I am officially the most confused man on the planet. Just before she left for her counselling session she came over to me and gave me 2 hugs. She said "I'm sorry for doing this too you" to which I replied "don't be sorry, just don't give up" - "I won't she replied" tears rolling down her face...

I wonder if there's something she wants to tell the counseller that she is afraid to tell me?


----------



## anchorwatch

Good retort!


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> Good retort!


Sorry? I don't understand.


----------



## anchorwatch

Intact27 said:


> She said "I'm sorry for doing this too you" to which I replied "*don't be sorry, just don't give up*" - "I won't she replied" tears rolling down her face...


You gave a good response to her apology.


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> You gave a good response to her apology.


Ah I see - thank you. I find her so incredibly hard to judge. One minute she's cold and bitter, and the next she is apologising and hugging me... Heaven knows which wife will return from her counselling session.


----------



## anchorwatch

She's in turmoil. She doesn't know how to resolve the fact that she cares for you at some level, yet she blames you for the situation at the same time. She is at least is going to the counselor to help her through this rough spot today.


----------



## Intact27

That would make sense.

I did think maybe she wants to tell the counseller something which she doesn't have the courage too tell me... An affair maybe?

Really hope this counseller won't just tell her to leave the marriage.


----------



## dallasapple

Yes I think she is very confused but I think we kind of knew that already.Your attention you have given her lately and kindness probably through her off kilter a bit.Maybe she wasn't expecting you to have that reaction either.Our counselor told us one time that change even for the better can feel uncomfortable or scary.We can get oddly comfortable in our dysfunction or unhappiness if its what we know and are used to.Its possible it has something to do with that.She could also feel guilty that you are being so attentive and thoughtful to her and she doesn't still have it in her to give much or anything back to you and she can't stand feeling sorry for you knowing she is the one not willing.(or able)She may just need some time away from you to think.I think you mentioned ya'll are together in the house a lot because you work from home?I think you had mentioned you even thought that could be part of the problem?

Anyway praying for ya'll.


----------



## MrK

Intact27 said:


> I said all this tonight as she rolled over to go to sleep. I also said that I hope one day you will forgive me for it. "I'll try" she said.


I know I should continue reading, but this is really starting to piss me off. It's ALL your fault, huh? 

Your marriage is over (I wish you'd get that through your thick skull), so I'm going to try to save some others. 

Women: when you see yourself falling out of love with your husband, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!!! Warn your daughters that there is a MASSIVE CHANCE this will happen to them and to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!!! 

Men are MORONS! All we know about women are that they are soft and warm and fun to be with. We know NOTHING ELSE. And you put something as important as marriage in a man's life, with something as complicated as a woman, and you REALLY think we won't **** up?

I'm SO over all of these women crying here on this site about "he doesn't see my needs", or "he doesnt understand me", or "his temper is so bad I don;t know if I can take it.

DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!!! 

And stop whinning.


----------



## Intact27

Yes I do work from home so space has been an issue for her - I have said if we make it through this I will look into renting some office space but its hard to do at the moment because if she leaves I will need every spare bit of money.


----------



## MrK

So many veteran posters, so much bad advice.


----------



## anchorwatch

Hey K, You have your ideas others have theirs. If you had so much confidence in them would you really need to knock down others so your's stand up?

BTW, How are you doing at resolving your marriage problems?


----------



## dallasapple

MrK said:


> I know I should continue reading, but this is really starting to piss me off. It's ALL your fault, huh?
> 
> Your marriage is over (I wish you'd get that through your thick skull), so I'm going to try to save some others.
> 
> Women: when you see yourself falling out of love with your husband, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!!! Warn your daughters that there is a MASSIVE CHANCE this will happen to them and to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!!!
> 
> Men are MORONS! All we know about women are that they are soft and warm and fun to be with. We know NOTHING ELSE. And you put something as important as marriage in a man's life, with something as complicated as a woman, and you REALLY think we won't **** up?
> 
> I'm SO over all of these women crying here on this site about "he doesn't see my needs", or "he doesnt understand me", or "his temper is so bad I don;t know if I can take it.
> 
> DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!!!!
> 
> And stop whinning.


Unfortunately too many times a woman(or a man) expresses their distress whatever it is and its dismissed or not taken seriously or you are even mocked and called a nag.Even here you said "stop whining"..well I agree if you are a nit picking needy nag.But sometimes its real and reasonable needs that are being chronically neglected and cries to help make it better as I said even for years are blown off as "your problem not mine" "get over it' I'm happy the way things are" etc....then when some decide I wont accept this many times after there is a complete "disconnect" and they say I'm leaving the spouse says they were "blindsided" and "shocked' that the one they loved just "up and left them" never giving them a chance.

There are women I know that have begged for counseling for years to no avail.I know women(and men) that went to counseling on their own just to try and cope ..Its hogwash for the most part there were no signs and no complaints it was all kept a secret then one day POOF they leave..Or that the unhappy spouse didn't "do something" its just it takes TWO not one.


----------



## Intact27

Well my wife just phoned as she had finished her session.

The counsellor has told her not to talk to me about it and just keep our normal appointment for Tuesday so we can "talk to each other"

Apparently she has told my wife to think everything through over the weekend...

I hate this, I feel like a decision has been made and I will go in there Tuesday and be ambushed.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Well my wife just phoned as she had finished her session.
> 
> The counsellor has told her not to talk to me about it and just keep our normal appointment for Tuesday so we can "talk to each other"
> 
> Apparently she has told my wife to think everything through over the weekend...
> 
> I hate this, I feel like a decision has been made and I will go in there Tuesday and be ambushed.


I don't think its fair either that you are "in the dark" and have no idea what to expect.But then again maybe she hasn't made a concrete decision.Is your wife coming home or ????


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> I don't think its fair either that you are "in the dark" and have no idea what to expect.But then again maybe she hasn't made a concrete decision.Is your wife coming home or ????


Yes, she is on her way home now.

Really don't know how to handle this, I think the worst thing I could do is put pressure on her, but what on earth is going on?


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Yes, she is on her way home now.


Maybe she will open a dialogue.I just find it kind of bizarre I guess you are supposed to chat it up about the weather .But then again I'm one of those get it off my chest and very curious kind of people.


----------



## anchorwatch

Sounds like she is expressing doubt that anything can come of this. The counselor is talking her back from the edge and will discus it all with the two of you next week. You must know that she will have doubts?


----------



## Intact27

Yeah me too. I find it so strange. Like I said I feel as thouim going to be ambushed and told its over when I go there on Tuesday.


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> Sounds like she is expressing doubt that anything can come of this. The counselor is talking her back from the edge and will discus it all with the two of you next week. You must know that she will have doubts?


I understand that she will have many doubts. Perhaps this is what it is happening.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I understand that she will have many doubts. Perhaps this is what it is happening.


Well like I mentioned earlier.Change even for the better can cause one to feel unstable at first.You can have the opposite reaction to it rather than embrace they flee because its confusing.


----------



## Intact27

I just hate the fact that I'm in the dark - am I just meant to worry myself sick until Tuesday?


----------



## anchorwatch

Intact, have you seen your medical doctor for something to help with the anxiety?


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> Intact, have you seen your medical doctor for something to help with the anxiety?


I have an appointment Monday - surely you understand that this seems strange though?


----------



## anchorwatch

There are very few times in life of greater stress. Stress that will hinder one's health and not allow one to mentally achieve their goals. The temporary use of a stress reliever would be called for. It is not a sign of weakness. Speak to your MD about it.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I just hate the fact that I'm in the dark - am I just meant to worry myself sick until Tuesday?


I don't want to tell you the wrong thing to do or say.But I'm tempted to say ..Look I understand how we got to this state at least my end of it which I wholeheartedly regret and am committed to take steps to change.But could you sympathise with the fact I feel like at least I'm due the common courtesy to have any idea what your state of mind is now?Even if its unsure or unsettled?Honestly it feels as if you hold my future in your hands and I'm shut out as to what that is?Maybe try and put your self in my shoes?


----------



## anchorwatch

dallasapple, I disagree. I don't think he should pressure her and that he should wait till MC next week. If she is in conflict and the counselor wants her to take time to calm down, pressure on her now would be counter productive.


----------



## MrK

dallasapple said:


> .Its hogwash for the most part there were no signs and no complaints it was all kept a secret then one day POOF they leave..Or that the unhappy spouse didn't "do something" its just it takes TWO not one.


I NEVER said there were no signs or complaints. I knew EXACTLY what I was doing wrong. I'll bet almost ALL of those men who were blindsided by their wife's admissions of "no love left" knew what they were doing wrong.

But hey. I see where this is going and I'll accept it. Men are wrong, women are right. Good, now we're getting somewhere. So, since the gals have all the answers:

Help.

Us.

Fix.

It.

It's an epidemic and it needs to be fixed. You gals have the answers, fix it. But I would HIGHLY recommend listening to the men who are on the other side to see WHY we **** up so much. You may learn a little bit. "You were wrong, admit it" hasn't helped yet, has it.


----------



## MrK

anchorwatch said:


> Hey K, You have your ideas others have theirs. If you had so much confidence in them would you really need to knock down others so your's stand up?
> 
> BTW, How are you doing at resolving your marriage problems?


My marriage problems suck, thanks for asking. But getting into the spirit of this discussion, I'll say it's because SHE WON'T TALK TO ME ABOUT IT. Still.


----------



## dallasapple

> But hey. I see where this is going and I'll accept it. Men are wrong, women are right. Good, now we're getting somewhere. So, since the gals have all the answers:


I never said such a thing.And the answer is GALS and guys don't ignore your spouses when they express unhappiness that you have anything to do with.Within reason of course.But the bottom line is if that's what you have already done (ignore dismiss not address sweep under the rug) for years sometimes its too late.That's the unfortunate answer for some.

Anyway I don't wish to derail Intact's thread.Everyone here or most are trying to help him or be some source of comfort for him even to just vent his emotions .Its not propper to turn it into a gender debate.Or any debate for that matter.


----------



## dallasapple

anchorwatch said:


> dallasapple, I disagree. I don't think he should pressure her and that he should wait till MC next week. If she is in conflict and the counselor wants her to take time to calm down, pressure on her now would be counter productive.


Well I said I was "tempted" not that is what he should necessarily do .I guess Intact's feelings of anxiety are transferring to me somehow through his words.I wouldn't make a great counselor I'm ringing my hands for him.


----------



## turnera

MrK said:


> I NEVER said there were no signs or complaints. I knew EXACTLY what I was doing wrong. I'll bet almost ALL of those men who were blindsided by their wife's admissions of "no love left" knew what they were doing wrong.
> 
> But hey. I see where this is going and I'll accept it. Men are wrong, women are right. Good, now we're getting somewhere. So, since the gals have all the answers:
> 
> Help.
> 
> Us.
> 
> Fix.
> 
> It.
> 
> It's an epidemic and it needs to be fixed. You gals have the answers, fix it. But I would HIGHLY recommend listening to the men who are on the other side to see WHY we **** up so much. You may learn a little bit. "You were wrong, admit it" hasn't helped yet, has it.


The best advice I can give is to man up, and lead the family. It's what women want, even when they deny it. Read NMMNG, MMSLP, and HOTYN. Read Men Are From Mars so you can understand why you speak different languages and use that knowledge to adapt how you act around her. Start DATING your wife again. If she works, too, make damn sure you're doing half the chores and child-rearing around the house. Compliment her, but never beg, and never ask her if she's mad. 

That should be a good start.


----------



## Intact27

Well it seems the counsellor has today told my wife to start sleeping at her mothers house - I don't understand this - surely this is a massive step backward from being in the same bed? I'm really not happy about it.


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## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> Well it seems the counsellor has today told my wife to start sleeping at her mothers house - I don't understand this - surely this is a massive step backward from being in the same bed? I'm really not happy about it.


If she is going to do that, and not let you know your thinking, I think you need to figure out a couple of things prior to counseling:

1) If she is willing to work on the marriage, how will you respond. What do you need, what are you willing to give, what actions are you taking?

2) If she does not want to work on your marriage, what do you want. Do you want her to reconsider? Do you want her to move out? Do you continue counseling to manage the split?

3) If she is unsure, now what? How long can you live in limbo? What actions do you you need from her, and what are you prepared to do.

This all assumes you are willing to continue working on things. Really think through how you want to precced. Write down questions for each scenario and have them ready for the joint meeting. Put your own thought into this and be as prepared as you can.

I would also recommend not sharing this with your wife at this point. Make it about what you want and can give in this situation.


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## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Well it seems the counsellor has today told my wife to start sleeping at her mothers house - I don't understand this - surely this is a massive step backward from being in the same bed? I'm really not happy about it.


It could be the space she needed ? You have acknowledged that could be a point of friction..

But promise she wont be as "comfortable" at mothers no matter how close they are..Most 30 something yo women don't want to live at their mothers house away from their children and home and yes even estranged spouse for long.But I don't know your wife..

PRAYING!!!


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## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Well it seems the counsellor has today told my wife to start sleeping at her mothers house - I don't understand this - surely this is a massive step backward from being in the same bed? I'm really not happy about it.


Oh the counselor? Your wife could have complained of the needing space thing..????..The counselor suggested ways for her to get space?

Just a guess...


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## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> Well it seems the counsellor has today told my wife to start sleeping at her mothers house - I don't understand this - surely this is a massive step backward from being in the same bed? I'm really not happy about it.


I am always surprised at how many counselors recommend this, I'm really not sure what their strategy is if they even have one. If you have the kid and the house, you are a big winner. Figure out what you need to do if you have to go it on your own. Get yourself a hobby and quit obsessing over your wife


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## turnera

Yep. As long as the kid's with you, let her go find herself. Then, when she realizes that grass is Astroturf, YOU can set the requirements to allow her to come back.


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## Intact27

turnera said:


> Yep. As long as the kid's with you, let her go find herself. Then, when she realizes that grass is Astroturf, YOU can set the requirements to allow her to come back.


Yes our son is with me. Basically she waits until he is asleep, packs a bag and goes to her mums, then comes back in the morning before he wakes up.

I really can't see what good it can do, but I'm biting my tongue until our session together on Tuesday.


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## Intact27

A friend just told me what he thinks has happened...

Basically he thinks my wife turned up to her session and told the counsellor that it was over and she didn't want to work on the marriage so the counsellor told her to take a few evenings away and really think about things...

Kind of makes sense too me, what do you think?


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> A friend just told me what he thinks has happened...
> 
> Basically he thinks my wife turned up to her session and told the counsellor that it was over and she didn't want to work on the marriage so the counsellor told her to take a few evenings away and really think about things...
> 
> Kind of makes sense too me, what do you think?


It could be and I pray she changes her mind.I mean I could see if you were saying she was being ridiculous and you have been a near perfect husband to her or were acting hostile towards her just getting angry and blaming everything on her.Refusing to try and see or understand where she had felt neglected and or rejected.Or said yeah I'm not perfect but what about YOU!!I mean I hear that a lot.

But you saw your errors validating how you contributed to how she feels now ..started turning your self around she should at least try.You said you are even willing to rent an office space so ya'll can have more time apart.I do know for some being together ALLLLLLLLL the time you sort of start to get on each others nerves + there isn't much chance to "build" a desire to see each other well....because you are rarely apart.

Anyway I only know what you have laid out here but from what you have said shes an idiot if she doesn't commit to something like 6 months of trying to work it out and continuing counseling.


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## Intact27

It's all so strange... If she leaves she will literally lose everything - at 39 years old she will have to move into her parents house and only see our son half of the time... Surely if you were about to lose all of that you'd at least try. 

I fear her mind is already made up though and I'm being taken to the counselling session on Tuesday as she's more comfortable telling me in front of the counsellor.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> A friend just told me what he thinks has happened...
> 
> Basically he thinks my wife turned up to her session and told the counsellor that it was over and she didn't want to work on the marriage so the counsellor told her to take a few evenings away and really think about things...
> 
> Kind of makes sense too me, what do you think?


It could be, but it also could be something else. Which is why you need to think through the different options. Consider different things she could tell you then think about how you want to react. Honestly, I would include figuring out your rights if you proceed to divorce. Not that you need to file now, but so that you know as much about what could happen as possible so you can consider everything.

Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. You absolutely do not want to walk into that next counseling session unprepared. You will get blindsided and look weak. 

Remember, even is she says she is done, nothing is done until divorce is final. So if you stay strong and show her that you can move forward without her, even though you don't want to, you have the chance that she will change her mind. Even if you don't, you will put yourself in a better place for you and your kids.

Good luck.


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## Intact27

Well she just told me that she's staying at her mums house again tonight and I told her I thought it was a little unfair that I have no idea what is going on, I also told her that I felt a decision had been made without me knowing. She replied "it's not that, I just have so much to think about, and the counsellor suggested I take some time to myself."

It pisses me off but I just said "ok take as much time as you need, you know where I am if you'd like to talk at any point"


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## turnera

Stop saying that. It's weak and beta and UNATTRACTIVE. She needs to see a man who knows his worth and won't be her backup plan. She has to RESPECT you, to want you. And right now, YOU aren't respecting you, so why should she?

Start saying 'well, guess what? I'm not your fall-back plan. I'm done waiting for you to figure it out. If you can't respect me enough to make a decision and not just count on me to be waiting, I'll make the decision for you. I'll help you pack your stuff. But son stays here. I'll start looking for a day care.'


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## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> Well she just told me that she's staying at her mums house again tonight and I told her I thought it was a little unfair that I have no idea what is going on, I also told her that I felt a decision had been made without me knowing. She replied "it's not that, I just have so much to think about, and the counsellor suggested I take some time to myself."
> 
> It pisses me off but I just said "ok take as much time as you need, you know where I am if you'd like to talk at any point"


And that is all you can do for her.

But in the meantime do something for you and your son.

FIgure out how you will manage on a daily basis without your wife.

Just you and your boy.

Work on a plan for you to get rid of the stress.
Exercise.
Eat healthy.
Make time for your boy on a daily basis so he knows you will not abandon him.

Start taking these things under consideration.

Because your wife has issues. ANd you cannot fix them, only she can.

And they need to be addressed before your marriage can even be worked on.

Because I feel your wife is going to walk away from your marriage.

Stay calm and be strong. Set an example for your boy.

Hm64


----------



## dallasapple

turnera said:


> Stop saying that. It's weak and beta and UNATTRACTIVE. She needs to see a man who knows his worth and won't be her backup plan. She has to RESPECT you, to want you. And right now, YOU aren't respecting you, so why should she?
> 
> Start saying 'well, guess what? I'm not your fall-back plan. I'm done waiting for you to figure it out. If you can't respect me enough to make a decision and not just count on me to be waiting, I'll make the decision for you. I'll help you pack your stuff. But son stays here. I'll start looking for a day care.'


The only thing I will say is it hasn't really been THAT long.Didn't this all start about a month or 6 weeks ago?And after all they have only had one joint counseling session .


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## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> The only thing I will say is it hasn't really been THAT long.Didn't this all start about a month or 6 weeks ago?And after all they have only had one joint counseling session .


It's been 5 weeks and we have had 2 joint sessions together.


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## Intact27

I'm thinking about writing her a letter - not a love letter but a letter of my thoughts about our marriage and family.

I'm guessing everyone thinks this would be a bad idea?


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## dallasapple

> She replied "it's not that, I just have so much to think about, and the counsellor suggested I take some time to myself."


She said its "not that".Maybe she truly needs to get away from you to clear her head and think about what she wants.I mean that is the question right?Does she want to stay married and try and work things out or not? A month ago she had already decided .Now she is rethinking that.


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## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> It's been 5 weeks and we have had 2 joint sessions together.


I stand corrected.


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> She said its "not that".Maybe she truly needs to get away from you to clear her head and think about what she wants.I mean that is the question right?Does she want to stay married and try and work things out or not? A month ago she had already decided .Now she is rethinking that.


The impression I get is that she is deciding whether to work on the marriage or leave. It sounds like she needs to be away from me as being with me adds pressure...

I really don't know which way it will go, but I am fearing and preparing for the worst right now...

What do you think about a letter? Good idea? Bad idea?


----------



## happyman64

Writing her a letter will only push her further away.

I think she already knows how you feel about her.


----------



## Intact27

happyman64 said:


> And that is all you can do for her.
> 
> But in the meantime do something for you and your son.
> 
> FIgure out how you will manage on a daily basis without your wife.
> 
> Just you and your boy.
> 
> Work on a plan for you to get rid of the stress.
> Exercise.
> Eat healthy.
> Make time for your boy on a daily basis so he knows you will not abandon him.
> 
> Start taking these things under consideration.
> 
> Because your wife has issues. ANd you cannot fix them, only she can.
> 
> And they need to be addressed before your marriage can even be worked on.
> 
> *Because I feel your wife is going to walk away from your marriage.*
> 
> Stay calm and be strong. Set an example for your boy.
> 
> Hm64


Can I ask what makes you think that please? I think you're very possibly right but it would be nice too know.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I'm thinking about writing her a letter - not a love letter but a letter of my thoughts about our marriage and family.
> 
> I'm guessing everyone thinks this would be a bad idea?


Write the letter at the very least for yourself as if you are talking to her.I think that is a major part of your frustration you feel "stifled" and can't express to HER your feelings and emotions and she is being pretty silent about hers.Its like a HUGELY magnified silent treatment because it not over some petty argument.Its your marriage and your future .

After you write the letter you could decide if or when to give it to her..


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## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> Write the letter at the very least for yourself as if you are talking to her.I think that is a major part of your frustration you feel "stifled" and can't express to HER your feelings and emotions and she is being pretty silent about hers.Its like a HUGELY magnified silent treatment because it not over some petty argument.Its your marriage and your future .
> 
> After you write the letter you could decide if or when to give it to her..


I have actually roughly written the letter but really don't know whether to give it too her or not...

Even though it's personal perhaps I should put on here, to get some pointers?


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I have actually roughly written the letter but really don't know whether to give it too her or not...
> 
> Even though it's personal perhaps I should put on here, to get some pointers?


I would be more than happy to read the letter and give you my opinion I'm honored to try and help any way I can if at all.


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## turnera

Intact27 said:


> I'm thinking about writing her a letter - not a love letter but a letter of my thoughts about our marriage and family.
> 
> I'm guessing everyone thinks this would be a bad idea?


 Of course it is. She knows you want her. That's what makes it easy to LEAVE you.

A better idea is to let her see you moving on if she won't respect you.

Is she a SAHM? I don't remember.


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## turnera

Intact27 said:


> I have actually roughly written the letter but really don't know whether to give it too her or not...
> 
> Even though it's personal perhaps I should put on here, to get some pointers?


Sure. We'll take out all the beta stuff.


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## Intact27

turnera said:


> Of course it is. She knows you want her. That's what makes it easy to LEAVE you.
> 
> A better idea is to let her see you moving on if she won't respect you.
> 
> Is she a SAHM? I don't remember.


She works 3 days a week but I work from home. We have already agreed that if she gives up on the marriage she walks away from the home. Our son stays with me 4 days a week and with her (at her parents house) the other 3 days.


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## Intact27

Ok, I'll copy the letter I'm THINKING of sending here... let me know thoughts, alterations, scrap it etc...


Dear _______

Please don't see this letter as an exercise to add pressure on you (or begging for that matter). I just wanted the chance – even if it is for the final time - to get my feelings across too you...

I want to start off saying that I know and understand why you are feeling like you are. We have both made mistakes in this marriage and I take full responsibility for my share of them. The changes I am making will continue whatever happens because I want to be a better person for myself and our Son.

I understand why you have needed space to think, I really do but please believe I am trying my best to stop adding pressure onto you and to stop analysing everything... This is difficult for me but I am doing my best...

I realize that you have a massive decision to make and I know that it must be equally difficult for you looking at both choices.

Whatever happens I know the road ahead won't be easy for us. I do genuinely believe that given enough time, effort and commitment we could sort through these dreadful problems and have a loving marriage. I also realise that this must seem very difficult too you at the moment, perhaps even impossible. But I know how strong we both are. I honestly know that I am ready to be the husband you always wanted and deserved. A true partnership between husband and wife. I know it won't be quick and it won't be easy but I am certain we can get there...

I know it must be hard for you too look at (our son) at the moment, because it is for me too. You and (our son) are very much my family and there is nothing I wouldn't do for either of you. It's obviously no shock too you that I very much want to keep our little family together. We have so much left to do... 

If you are willing, and I truly hope you are, I am ready for every tiny bit of hard work, patience and commitment that will be needed for us to do this. If need be I will dedicate every second I have to working on this, and giving you everything you deserve and more.

Finally I want to promise you that my changes are real and they are genuine. I can only imagine it must annoy you because I could of done all of these things before. Please let me assure you that thought crosses my mind all of the time – and I will forever regret it.

I really hope that one day we can look back on this dreadful time together, remembering just how hard it was, but being able to look each other in the eyes and say “it was worth the fight”.

Goodnight 

x


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## dallasapple

turnera said:


> Of course it is. She knows you want her. That's what makes it easy to LEAVE you.
> 
> A better idea is to let her see you moving on if she won't respect you.
> 
> Is she a SAHM? I don't remember.


If he said "leave I don't want you anyway" you think that would make her want to stay"?

I think its more like she needs to know he wants her.But he cant hold her there nor would he try .He wants her there under no other circumstances than her wanting him back any other terms quite frankly are unnacceptable.If she doesn't want him back he will of course be very hurt but he will survive and go on and keep building on his life without her and find happiness and fulfillment without her.But it will be because that's what SHE chose.


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## turnera

Intact27 said:


> She works 3 days a week but I work from home. We have already agreed that if she gives up on the marriage she walks away from the home. Our son stays with me 4 days a week and with her (at her parents house) the other 3 days.


 Then you need to start implementing that - SHE has to go to her mom's for space? Fine. She can start taking care of her son there. Make it uncomfortable for her. It's a big mistake to let her come home and pretend she gets both worlds. SHOW her what her choice would look like. Tell her she can no longer come there and pretend.


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## Intact27

turnera said:


> Then you need to start implementing that - SHE has to go to her mom's for space? Fine. She can start taking care of her son there. Make it uncomfortable for her. It's a big mistake to let her come home and pretend she gets both worlds. SHOW her what her choice would look like. Tell her she can no longer come there and pretend.


She seems so fragile at the moment I honestly think that would drive her away and give her the "easy option"


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## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> She seems so fragile at the moment I honestly think that would drive her away and give her the "easy option"


It would also to me seem vindictive.She hasn't LEFT yet she is only leaving at night and after your son has gone to bed.If she was dead set on leaving you already she wouldn't be sheltering the circumstances currently from your son.She may be (just maybe) sparing him to knowing something that in the end he didn't NEED to know..


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> It would also to me seem vindictive.She hasn't LEFT yet she is only leaving at night and after your son has gone to bed.If she was dead set on leaving you already she wouldn't be sheltering the circumstances currently from your son.She may be (just maybe) sparing him to knowing something that in the end he didn't NEED to know..


Yes possibly. We both always said that once our Son know, there is no going back...

Can i ask what you thought of the letter please?


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## turnera

Dear _______

I am writing so I can explain my feelings.

We have both made mistakes in this marriage and I take full responsibility for my share of them. The changes I am making will continue whatever happens because I want to be a better person for myself and our son.

I am trying to stop adding pressure and analysing everything but it’s difficult to watch your wife tell you she doesn’t know if she wants you, when I know I have been a loyal, loving, steadfast husband and father, which I know you’ve said is what you wanted. So how did that change into what you DIDN’T want?

I believe that given a real commitment from both of us, we could sort through both of our issues and have a loving marriage. I know that I am the husband you always said you wanted and deserved, so we’d need to figure out what changed with you and why that’s no longer true. I know it won't be quick or easy but I am certain we can get there.

I know it must be hard for you to look at (our son) at the moment, because it is for me too, knowing you will be breaking his life in two if you leave. But if you are willing, I am ready for every tiny bit of hard work, patience, and commitment that will be needed for us to fix our communication issues so we both can feel safe in this marriage. 

Finally I want to promise you that my changes are real. And I hope that when we are able to discuss our marriage in a safe and healthy way, we can discuss what further changes both of us need to make so that it’s a good match for both of us. 

I really hope that one day we can look back on this dreadful time together, remembering just how hard it was, but being able to look each other in the eyes and say “it was worth the fight”.


----------



## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> Can I ask what makes you think that please? I think you're very possibly right but it would be nice too know.


Because right now she is only thinking of herself.

And all her decisions are focused solely for her and her benefit only.

You and your son are not in the equation.

I understand how devastating this can be.

But you have to prepare yourself that she is quite possibly ending your marriage.

The key is how you handle it.

Crying, whining or begging her to come back will not work.

And if she tells you she is moving on you will have no choice but to let her go.

If she is not willing to work on the marriage you will have to let her go.

You can express to her that you find her decision horrible, selfish and totally one sided.

But in the end you have to realize that a marriage of one is not a marriage.

ANd all the hope and prayer in the world will not bring her back.

Only she can do that. And you cannot force her into coming back.

HM64


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## anchorwatch

I would not send that letter. She already knows all that. I think you're doing fine with your inter action. She knows that you will work to save the marriage and now it's time for her to decide what she wants to do. You've not made it a week through the MC, let the process proceed.


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## turnera

dallasapple said:


> If he said "leave I don't want you anyway" you think that would make her want to stay"?
> 
> I think its more like she needs to know he wants her.But he cant hold her there nor would he try .He wants her there under no other circumstances than her wanting him back any other terms quite frankly are unnacceptable.If she doesn't want him back he will of course be very hurt but he will survive and go on and keep building on his life without her and find happiness and fulfillment without her.But it will be because that's what SHE chose.


I understand what you're saying. But the reason she's gone is she's lost respect for him (unless she's got eyes for another guy, and that's a whole other story). She needs to see that, yes, he loves her and wants her to stay but no, he won't just sit there and pine away for her and pretend that ALL the marriage's problems are his. If she's just 'out of love,' they need to be in MARRIAGE counseling, not personal counseling, who - true to form - told HER to get out and do what SHE wants. That counselor has no intention or desire to fix the marriage - just make HER feel good at the moment.

I've seen this happen too many times. The wife falls out of love because the man turns beta. She wonders where her 'man' went, when all she has now is this puppy dog. Where's the thrill? Where's the pizazz that caught her in the first place? Where's the confidence, the swagger, the willingness to sweep her away? 

So she goes to therapy, says she feels guilty for not loving her husband any more - because she's confusing no longer having the PEA chemical coursing through her body and brain (which are gone by the fifth year of marriage) with no longer loving him. So he kisses up even more, which makes her sick, and she tells her IC that he makes her sick, so IC tells her go away and find yourself! and so she goes away, and he writes her love letters which make her even MORE sick, until she just gives up.

As opposed to a husband who is an alpha male, who KNOWS his worth, who isn't crumbling because his wife is becoming wishwashy, who tells her he's been a damn good husband and he doesn't understand. He admits that he didn't hear what she asked for, before, but he's now doing it (whatever 'it' is) and he's willing to listen to whatever other complaint she has, and CONSIDER whether he has more changing to do. At the same time, he holds HER accountable and says "I want you more than anything, but I won't turn into something I'm not. If you need a doormat, by all means go out and get one, but I'm doing what you asked, and you still don't know? Then I don't know what else I can do. I love you, I've made the changes, I'm willing to go to MC with you to address any other issues, but I'm not going to beg you to stay, when I know I've been an amazing husband and father."

fwiw, I'm not telling him to get mean and kick her out. He can have these conversations in a loving, concerned way that still shows her he will not beg, he will not just be ok with her pretending to be a family for the next 2 or 3 years while she finds herself. That he wants her, and he'll fight for her, but not in a way that involves him turning into her backup plan while she goes on a search for herself. 

What they REALLY need is a counselor who KNOWS about PEA chemicals and the 7 year itch and how to throw all that crap out and just keep the discussions down to the real stuff like do you really want to be with him or do you want to break up the family?


----------



## Honest opinion

Dear intact 27
I feel so bad for what your going through,you have been trying a lot.nothing in return from her side !!is she worth it??? 
I see how desperate you are to fix the marrage while she seems careless .why keep torturing yourself and trying ,can you sleep with her in same bed knowing she has no feelings for you?? 
Leave her,you should walk away on her and keep your dignity and self respect.you will find someone that deserves you and you'll find love again .
Tell her I am fed up waiting for your mercy to give me a chance of maybe loving me again huh.showing her your not weak and can move on might be the solution to change her mind (as I see you desperat) but if I was you I wouldn't to hell with her.
good luck


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Yes possibly. We both always said that once our Son know, there is no going back...
> 
> Can i ask what you thought of the letter please?


I'm still thinking about it LOL!! It definately tugged at my heart I'm just wondering if it seemed a little too on the pitiful side.

One thing I'm not sure if I like the massive decision part where you you said the choices were "equally difficult" looking at both choices.

I mean are you that bad?Maybe you could add in some of the positive aspects of your union and life together.Things that worked not just the broken parts.Ya know ?Without sounding arrogant or like you are in denial.You had to have many good memories too right?And the goal would be to fix the broken parts while building more good memories.

On this part ?



> I understand why you have needed space to think, I really do but please believe I am trying my best to stop adding pressure onto you and to stop analysing everything... This is difficult for me but I am doing my best...


I would just say I'm under an equal amount of pressure this is why I felt I needed to communicate this to you .

"I understand why you have needed space to think ,I don't wish to add pressure on you..but believe me I'm under an equal amount of pressure not knowing what is going to happen this is why I felt the need to write you this letter"

But then again Intact your letter could be just fine.It just sort of made it sound like she was having to choose between to hell's or something.And the feeling of "um excuse me I don't wish to bother you while you decide my fate " feeling was a little too pitiful....

What do others think?


----------



## dallasapple

turnera said:


> Dear _______
> 
> I am writing so I can explain my feelings.
> 
> We have both made mistakes in this marriage and I take full responsibility for my share of them. The changes I am making will continue whatever happens because I want to be a better person for myself and our son.
> 
> I am trying to stop adding pressure and analysing everything but it’s difficult to watch your wife tell you she doesn’t know if she wants you, when I know I have been a loyal, loving, steadfast husband and father, which I know you’ve said is what you wanted. So how did that change into what you DIDN’T want?
> 
> I believe that given a real commitment from both of us, we could sort through both of our issues and have a loving marriage. I know that I am the husband you always said you wanted and deserved, so we’d need to figure out what changed with you and why that’s no longer true. I know it won't be quick or easy but I am certain we can get there.
> 
> I know it must be hard for you to look at (our son) at the moment, because it is for me too, knowing you will be breaking his life in two if you leave. But if you are willing, I am ready for every tiny bit of hard work, patience, and commitment that will be needed for us to fix our communication issues so we both can feel safe in this marriage.
> 
> Finally I want to promise you that my changes are real. And I hope that when we are able to discuss our marriage in a safe and healthy way, we can discuss what further changes both of us need to make so that it’s a good match for both of us.
> 
> I really hope that one day we can look back on this dreadful time together, remembering just how hard it was, but being able to look each other in the eyes and say “it was worth the fight”.


YEAH..I like this version better.It doesn't make it sound like her choosing your marriage is some dreadful thing by your own admission (being married to you ) that you understand is so difficult to choose.I would add though to make sure that she understands you know the specific areas you need to focus on and are fully prepared to continue committ to working on those areas.


----------



## anchorwatch

I think he should not send that letter bc it looks weak and more clingy. Let us not forget the fact that Intact was the one not to show affection and pushed away his spouse. Now she must decide if he will really change and does she have enough left in her bank to take that chance.


----------



## turnera

I don't think we've talked much at all here about WHY she feels this way, just that she does. And from what I remember, you've been unwilling to check to see if she has indeed met someone else (and spare me the 'I know my wife' crap that 99% of all OTHER men come here with, and then find their wonderful wife was indeed cheating). You haven't talked about what she thought her marriage was like, just that you didn't change enough for her. 

Maybe we need to focus on what this supposed fantasy marriage is supposed to look like to her, so you can come to her with a more realistic discussion.


----------



## turnera

anchorwatch said:


> I think he should not send that letter bc it looks weak and more clingy. Let us not forget the fact that Intact was the one not to show affection and pushed away his spouse. Now she must decide if he will really change and does she have enough left in her bank to take that chance.


 He can do that with her LIVING at her mom's house. OR living at their house. Shuffling between them is a disaster waiting to happen.


----------



## anchorwatch

I agree T. They need to be under the same roof. Hopefully she will only stay away till next MC.


----------



## dallasapple

> I've seen this happen too many times. The wife falls out of love because the man turns beta. She wonders where her 'man' went, when all she has now is this puppy dog. Where's the thrill? Where's the pizazz that caught her in the first place? Where's the confidence, the swagger, the willingness to sweep her away?


But one of her complaints was he rejected her routinely when she reached out for non sexual affection?By his own admission he said he was only physically affectionate when his aim was sex.Also he was going out a lot with his guy friends and spending money on himself to an extent apparrently there was not ever enough for her to get anything for her self.He also said he was ashamed when they wrote down who did what she by far had a lot more on her plate than him and he had the time and opportunity to do more just had let her do it all.

How is that "Beta"?


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> I don't think we've talked much at all here about WHY she feels this way, just that she does. And from what I remember, you've been unwilling to check to see if she has indeed met someone else (and spare me the 'I know my wife' crap that 99% of all OTHER men come here with, and then find their wonderful wife was indeed cheating). You haven't talked about what she thought her marriage was like, just that you didn't change enough for her.
> 
> Maybe we need to focus on what this supposed fantasy marriage is supposed to look like to her, so you can come to her with a more realistic discussion.


I think in a nutshell I pushed her away far too often - both physically and emotionally. (I know I'm guilty of this). Also I have found working from home to be very difficult, so often by the time she got home I was in a foul mood and took it out on her with snarly remarks or coldness. I think I've done it so much over the years that it has got us to where we are at the moment.


----------



## dallasapple

turnera said:


> I don't think we've talked much at all here about WHY she feels this way, just that she does. And from what I remember, you've been unwilling to check to see if she has indeed met someone else (and spare me the 'I know my wife' crap that 99% of all OTHER men come here with, and then find their wonderful wife was indeed cheating). You haven't talked about what she thought her marriage was like, just that you didn't change enough for her.
> 
> Maybe we need to focus on what this supposed fantasy marriage is supposed to look like to her, so you can come to her with a more realistic discussion.


I just listed what I remember he saying above.And that she felt unappreciated too.And he has admitted he totally gets why.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I think in a nutshell I pushed her away far too often - both physically and emotionally. (I know I'm guilty of this). Also I have found working from home to be very difficult, so often by the time she got home I was in a foul mood and took it out on her with snarly remarks or coldness. I think I've done it so much over the years that it has got us to where we are at the moment.


So in a sense it was fairly typical for her to experience you as grouchy and unaffectionate and distant?

I want to know howTurnera classifies that as a "Beta " male that the woman lost respect for who married an alpha? No offense meabt but you seemed to be neither but rather sort of an ass hole .


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> So in a sense it was fairly typical for her to experience you as grouchy and unaffectionate and distant?
> 
> I want to know howTurnera classifies that as a "Beta " male that the woman lost respect for who married an alpha? No offense meabt but you seemed to be neither but rather sort of an ass hole .


I wasn't always an ******* - We had good times - unfortuantely the good times soon became "good moments".

I think I probably was too Alpha at times. Hanging out with friends just being quite typically male.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I wasn't always an ******* - We had good times - unfortuantely the good times soon became "good moments".
> 
> I think I probably was too Alpha at times. Hanging out with friends just being quite typically male.


I didn't mean that you were .Obvioulsy you are not always because I have seen no "hint' of ass hole from you here.

What I meant was it was more often than not or lets say "too often"...


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> I didn't mean that you were .Obvioulsy you are not always because I have seen no "hint' of ass hole from you here.
> 
> What I meant was it was more often than not or lets say "too often"...


Yes absolutely. Far too often.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I wasn't always an ******* - We had good times - unfortuantely the good times soon became "good moments".
> 
> I think I probably was too Alpha at times. Hanging out with friends just being quite typically male.


right Im sure the combination of all you have described left her feeling low on the priority in your life and taken for granted.


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> right Im sure the combination of all you have described left her feeling low on the priority in your life and taken for granted.


Absolutely. This is spot on. I think it has emotionally drained her and made her rather fragile.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Absolutely. This is spot on. I think it has emotionally drained her and made her rather fragile.


She gave more than she got back.Not that it has to be 50/50.But when one person is always the giver ...or the sacrificer giving something up and the other one is more the taker and doesn't give much up it will emotionally bankrupt you.


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> She gave more than she got back.Not that it has to be 50/50.But when one person is always the giver ...or the sacrificer giving something up and the other one is more the taker and doesn't give much up it will emotionally bankrupt you.


Yes, exactly. Unfortunately I found all of this stuff out too late


----------



## turnera

Ok, I take it back then. So let's regroup and see if what you are doing is the right course, as it's now led to her leaving you.

What will you say in MC?


----------



## turnera

Have you read His Needs Her Needs yet?


----------



## Hicks

Do not send any letters.

What you can't understand is your wife will not decide to pick you becuase you say the right thing or tell her the right thing.

She will only pick your marraige over singlehood if she observes and feels that marriage to you will be better than her other choices.

A woman cannot respect a man who gets dumped on as you are and practically begs her to come back.

You have to demstrate that you are a man who values yourself. The first thoughts to put in your head right this minute are all the GOOD THINGS you gain with her walking out of the house and ending this madness... Get happy, live a great life, and turn the tables such that she is the one begging to come back.

Interaction with her is counteproductive unless it is telling her things such have a good night, and if you are planning to return to your marriage please let me know so I can prepare for it.


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> Ok, I take it back then. So let's regroup and see if what you are doing is the right course, as it's now led to her leaving you.
> 
> What will you say in MC?


First thing I will say is that I need to know that there is a commitment from her to work on our relationship - if so she needs to move back home immediately.


----------



## Viseral

Change the locks.


----------



## dallasapple

turnera said:


> Ok, I take it back then. So let's regroup and see if what you are doing is the right course, as it's now led to her leaving you.
> 
> What will you say in MC?


right thats why I hate this new "married an alpha who turned beta" revolution is the automatic default whenever a woman announces she fell out of love..Its automatic MLC and or "shes having an affair" and he must be a pushover doormat wuss that needs to man up and demand what he wants her to do or kick her to the curb.Im sure that happens.But Im tired of it being the assumption.

My first post on this thread is SOMETIMES a woman falls out of love gradually and over the years from some sort of neglect that is chronic or ill treatment and she is the doormat and finally not only cant invest anymore emotionally because she is empty but decides she's not putting up with it anymore as in "done".

Thats why I was IMPRESSED with Intact for seeing past all that "man up " **** and admitting he had much to do with her feeling the way she does and it wasn't because he acted wimpy around her..


----------



## turnera

In all due respect, apple, I've seen the beta male become a problem FAR more often than the in-your-face male, which is why I didn't buy it. And I've been doing this for more than 10 years, so I've seen a hell of a lot of women leave their husbands.


----------



## dallasapple

Viseral said:


> Change the locks.


That's not even legal.Not to mention vindictive retaliation.And I'm sure would be a GREAT example for the 8 yo boy and not the least traumatizing.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> Yes possibly. We both always said that once our Son know, there is no going back...
> 
> Can i ask what you thought of the letter please?


Intact27,

I think you are a well meaning guy but sometimes you are your own worst enemy. I would humbly advise you to practice saying as little as possible, even absolutely nothing, for a while and above all don't say anything in writing or at least don't let her read it.

"No going back"? What are you two talking about?


----------



## dallasapple

turnera said:


> In all due respect, apple, I've seen the beta male become a problem FAR more often than the in-your-face male, which is why I didn't buy it. And I've been doing this for more than 10 years, so I've seen a hell of a lot of women leave their husbands.


With all due respect you made that assumption here and were dead wrong.And I have been cruising marriage forums myself for 8 years.Not to mention the 30 books I have read.People JUMPED on this thread and even suggested he go out and "pick up babes" to show her other women out there would want him.ASSUMING he was wimpy beta male who was being run over by her.

So maybe you have seen it "far more" because you (and others) have assumed that even when the evidence is to the contrary?


----------



## turnera

Not usually.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> First thing I will say is that I need to know that there is a commitment from her to work on our relationship - if so she needs to move back home immediately.


Intact27, this is starting to sound borderline controlling and I'm sure that's not how you mean to be read. We don't need to know anything about her commitment and she doesn't have to do anything immediately for you to demonstrate your commitment to your marriage and work on your contribution good and bad. Work on getting control of your self emotionally. Take stock of your position which is really not all that bad. She will come back when she is ready.


----------



## Intact27

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Intact27, this is starting to sound borderline controlling and I'm sure that's not how you mean to be read. We don't need to know anything about her commitment and she doesn't have to do anything immediately for you to demonstrate your commitment to your marriage and work on your contribution good and bad. Work on getting control of your self emotionally. Take stock of your position which is really not all that bad. She will come back when she is ready.


Thats good advice thank you.


----------



## dallasapple

Also on that note a quick derail here.There are more than 2 reasons a woman will want to divorce.Its not restricted to her proud strong alpha male turned into a sniveling doormat or he is a bully in your face barking rude alpha..there are men who just plainly are distant and uninterested in her..there are addictions ..affairs ...Betas or Alphas can be that way..A beta doesn't equal doormat.just as alpha doesn't equal abusive brute.there is one poster here I noted "Simply Amorous" her husband is a Beta type she said and she loves every inch of him it seems they are perfectly match and there is no inidcation she sees him as a weak doormat that she has no resepect for.This women want alpha is too cookie cutter.So is woman will divorce a beta..


----------



## dallasapple

In fact I picked up Intacts "strenght" right then and there I think page one..He put his FOOT down on that crap and said something to the effect of excuse me? I'm a MARRIED man and my marriage may not be important to others but is sure is to me".Thats not a wimp even if he was beta.


----------



## dallasapple

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Intact27, this is starting to sound borderline controlling and I'm sure that's not how you mean to be read. We don't need to know anything about her commitment and she doesn't have to do anything immediately for you to demonstrate your commitment to your marriage and work on your contribution good and bad. Work on getting control of your self emotionally. Take stock of your position which is really not all that bad. She will come back when she is ready.


At some point maybe not now.But she does need to speak her intentions as to committed. Don't you think? The one foot in and one foot out thing after a point is borderline cruel.Even if she sets conditions on it like what she is and isn't willing to commit to while working on it.But at least my goal is to put effort in trying to save our marriage.Maybe she still wants to spend some nights away.Maybe she isn't ready for a sexual relationship to resume ..but how about a crumb?Like I want our marriage to work out?


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> At some point maybe not now.But she does need to speak her intentions as to committed. Don't you think? The one foot in and one foot out thing after a point is borderline cruel.Even if she sets conditions on it like what she is and isn't willing to commit to while working on it.But at least my goal is to put effort in trying to save our marriage.Maybe she still wants to spend some nights away.Maybe she isn't ready for a sexual relationship to resume ..but how about a crumb?Like I want our marriage to work out?


This is really what I intend on saying to her. I just want to know if she is commited to working on our marriage.

In fact earlier today I said to her "if we get through this I think you should still stay at your Mums once a week" (she is very close too her Mum.) "yeah I might do" was her reply.

I think this is what she is thinking about now - which truthfully is very scary.

We can't work on our marriage as it is now, because we don't see enough of each other.

She just left to go to her Mums now - unfortunately shes also meeting a friend who is going through a nasty divorce... but when she left she came over and hugged me.

I just feel so conflicted. It's easy for people to say I need to get hold of my emotions but its difficult at best when they are being thrown all over the place!


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> This is really what I intend on saying to her. I just want to know if she is commited to working on our marriage.
> 
> In fact earlier today I said to her "if we get through this I think you should still stay at your Mums once a week" (she is very close too her Mum.) "yeah I might do" was her reply.
> 
> I think this is what she is thinking about now - which truthfully is very scary.
> 
> We can't work on our marriage as it is now, because we don't see enough of each other.
> 
> She just left to go to her Mums now - unfortunately shes also meeting a friend who is going through a nasty divorce... but when she left she came over and hugged me.
> 
> I just feel so conflicted. It's easy for people to say I need to get hold of my emotions but its difficult at best when they are being thrown all over the place!


I'm sorry there is a time to hold in our emotions.Like in court LOL..Or out and about in public.But with something like this is not the time.That's what gives people heart attacks and strokes.The stuffing your feelings thing is researched time and again ...it lowers your immune system..it ages you ..and in general wears and tears on you physically.Maybe you should CRY and scream and yell (while she and your son are away) and let it out..Bottling it up again is unhealthy and you will implode or explode trying to do that non stop..

And no matter how others think you are "weak" and "non alpha" just because you express it? I DONT ...you are a human being not a wolf...and under the circumstances MANY unless they are sociopaths would have a LOT of emotions stirring..and feel the need to let them out like a steam pot..


----------



## turnera

Intact27 said:


> This is really what I intend on saying to her. I just want to know if she is commited to working on our marriage.


She has already told you she doesn't KNOW if she is. And that is why she needed space. Bringing it up again will just increase her anxiety and get you nowhere. She needs confident and calm from you. Do what you need to SHOW her you are addressing her concerns. Say NOTHING.


----------



## dallasapple

> It's easy for people to say I need to get hold of my emotions but its difficult at best when they are being thrown all over the place!


Right..like "don't cry too loud at the funeral"..(not that your marriage is dead just an analogy I have actually has someone tell me that)..


----------



## Tall Average Guy

dallasapple said:


> So in a sense it was fairly typical for her to experience you as grouchy and unaffectionate and distant?
> 
> I want to know howTurnera classifies that as a "Beta " male that the woman lost respect for who married an alpha? No offense meabt but you seemed to be neither but rather sort of an ass hole .


Regardless of whether or not he has been beta in the past, being a doormat is not going to help him here. He needs to be strong, admit his faults, show that he has heard, and let her know how he is planning to meet those needs. A doormat is not attractive, but a man who knows what he wants and has a real plan to get there is.

A letter at this point is likely to make things worse. It comes across as whiny, plus she gets to provide her own tone which will not help him.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> First thing I will say is that I need to know that there is a commitment from her to work on our relationship - if so she needs to move back home immediately.


And if she says no? What about is she is still unsure? Or if she wants to end it.

Honestly, you have spent this huge amount of time focused on her, and far too little thinking about yourself. You need to remember one key point:

You can't control her, only you.

So focus on what you want, ideas on how to get there, and what actions you will take. Prepare for as many contingencies as you can, including the best and the worst. Figure out questions you want to ask. Try and anticipate questions she and the counselor will ask and how you want to answer them. This is hard work and you need to do it to be ready. 

Don't demand, but you can ask. If she won't do something, all you can do is figure out where *you* go from there.

That is all you can do.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> In fact earlier today I said to her "if we get through this I think you should still stay at your Mums once a week" (she is very close too her Mum.) "yeah I might do" was her reply.


Can you explain how this is a good idea if your issues are you being too distant from her? You tell her that she should continue the distance?


----------



## dallasapple

Tall Average Guy said:


> Regardless of whether or not he has been beta in the past, being a doormat is not going to help him here. He needs to be strong, admit his faults, show that he has heard, and let her know how he is planning to meet those needs. A doormat is not attractive, but a man who knows what he wants and has a real plan to get there is.
> 
> A letter at this point is likely to make things worse. It comes across as whiny, plus she gets to provide her own tone which will not help him.


I have never suggested once he be a doormat now.Only opposed the suggestion she is wanting to leave him in the first place because he was.(or that being beta (which he is not) = doormat)..

And yes a man who knows what he wants is strong.And he wants her and hes fighting for it.I don't see how that is "doormat" fighting for you marriage.And if you read my post I wasn't in favor of the letter the way he wrote it.


----------



## dallasapple

Tall Average Guy said:


> Can you explain how this is a good idea if your issues are you being too distant from her? You tell her that she should continue the distance?


He can ramp up the closeness when they are physically together which is where they lacked according to him.Physical distance as in not under the same roof wasn't the issue.


----------



## dallasapple

We also don't know his wife..Maybe she is DYING to hear tender words or for him to seem humbled at the thought of losing her?


----------



## dallasapple

Intact,

You know your wife best.In fact we don't know her at all except what you have told us about her.

What are you instincts do you think she would appreciate getting a letter from you that was more humility and sorrow and promise than "braun"? Have you ever written her a letter before talking about your "feelings" including regrets?


----------



## Intact27

I've written letters before - I really don't think she would appreciate a letter full of braun - not at all.

She knows I'm a thinker and when we first got together and married we used to leave letters like this for each other all of the time.

Although, I am worried if I send this she will just look at it as me pressurising her.


----------



## dallasapple

> In fact earlier today I said to her "if we get through this I think you should still stay at your Mums once a week" (she is very close too her Mum.) "yeah I might do" was her reply.


Of course I'm analyzing now..LOL!! but I think that's a GOOD sign.There is the "if we get through this part" that came before her statement..

PLUS that could be part of the solution with being together too much.Ya know?


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I've written letters before - I really don't think she would appreciate a letter full of braun - not at all.
> 
> She knows I'm a thinker and when we first got together and married we used to leave letters like this for each other all of the time.
> 
> Although, I am worried if I send this she will just look at it as me pressurising her.


Well I wouldn't give it too her then was just wondering if she was the letter writing type .Or appreciated them and didn't get many.You did say "used to" ???


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> Of course I'm analyzing now..LOL!! but I think that's a GOOD sign.There is the "if we get through this part" that came before her statement..
> 
> PLUS that could be part of the solution with being together too much.Ya know?


Sorry it was me that said "if we get through this"

Yes, we used to write letters to each other all of the time when we first got married - something else we let slip.

Honestly, I'm not hopeful and I realise I'm clinging on but I just don't have any other choice at the moment.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

dallasapple said:


> He can ramp up the closeness when they are physically together which is where they lacked according to him.Physical distance as in not under the same roof wasn't the issue.


But being physically distant prevents that closeness. It allows her to keep one foot out of the door. He has to committ 100% while she only has to give 86%. I don't see that helping. 

particularly don't see that him suggesting it would be helpful. If she has problems because he has been distant and aloof, how is telling her to spend the night away from him not sending the wrong message?


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Sorry it was me that said "if we get through this"
> 
> Yes, we used to write letters to each other all of the time when we first got married - something else we let slip.
> 
> Honestly, I'm not hopeful and I realise I'm clinging on but I just don't have any other choice at the moment.


I meant her "yeah I might do" statement in response.That means she didn't reject your statement of "if we get through " this statement..


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> I meant her "yeah I might do" statement in response.That means she didn't reject your statement of "if we get through " this statement..


Ah I see what you mean. Jeez I thought I was clinging to straws :smthumbup: thank you though.


----------



## dallasapple

Tall Average Guy said:


> But being physically distant prevents that closeness. It allows her to keep one foot out of the door. He has to committ 100% while she only has to give 86%. I don't see that helping.
> 
> particularly don't see that him suggesting it would be helpful. If she has problems because he has been distant and aloof, how is telling her to spend the night away from him not sending the wrong message?


I guess maybe I'm paying too close attention or reading wrong..ONE of the complicating factors according to Intact is they have too much PHYSICAL time together.As part of the solution he even suggested he get an office outside of home.In retrospect could have more to do with when they were together his sort of nasty mood .Its not he is 100% "committed" to her its he works from home and she is only gone 30 hours a week.That was"pinged" as part of the possible problem too much time under the same roof.


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> I guess maybe I'm paying too close attention or reading wrong..ONE of the complicating factors according to Intact is they have too much PHYSICAL time together.As part of the solution he even suggested he get an office outside of home.In retrospect could have more to do with when they were together his sort of nasty mood .Its not he is 100% "committed" to her its he works from home and she is only gone 30 hours a week.That was"pinged" as part of the possible problem too much time under the same roof.


I agree with you and IF we get through this I think it would help.

But I think it's a massive IF and highly unlikely in all honesty.

She's with her friend tonight who is going through a nasty divorce and currently hates all men - I think that could be very toxic.


----------



## dallasapple

Tall Average Guy said:


> But being physically distant prevents that closeness. It allows her to keep one foot out of the door. He has to committ 100% while she only has to give 86%. I don't see that helping.
> 
> particularly don't see that him suggesting it would be helpful. If she has problems because he has been distant and aloof, how is telling her to spend the night away from him not sending the wrong message?


To clarify ..(Intact correct me if I'm wrong) they were only "seperated" around 30 hours a week..(for work) the point is still a distance developed..(even while together)..So "part" of the problem could have been too much "in your face" time together.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I agree with you and IF we get through this I think it would help.
> 
> But I think it's a massive IF and highly unlikely in all honesty.
> 
> She's with her friend tonight who is going through a nasty divorce and currently hates all men - I think that could be very toxic.


I agree..UNLESS her friends spouse is a real bastard your wife may think ..."my husband didn't treat me like that"..

I can't tell you how many times I have heard the horror stories of women who had husbands who this and that..and I felt fortunate to have my ass hole..


----------



## dallasapple

> She's with her friend tonight who is going through a nasty divorce and currently hates all men - I think that could be very toxic.


And hopefully your wife is smart enough not to blur the lines that her friends husband is you in a different skin..


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

dallasapple said:


> At some point maybe not now.But she does need to speak her intentions as to committed. Don't you think? The one foot in and one foot out thing after a point is borderline cruel.Even if she sets conditions on it like what she is and isn't willing to commit to while working on it.But at least my goal is to put effort in trying to save our marriage.Maybe she still wants to spend some nights away.Maybe she isn't ready for a sexual relationship to resume ..but how about a crumb?Like I want our marriage to work out?


Absolutely. Sex should be restored as soon as possible. Plenty of people have sex without commitment.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

dallasapple said:


> To clarify ..(Intact correct me if I'm wrong) they were only "seperated" around 30 hours a week..(for work) the point is still a distance developed..(even while together)..So "part" of the problem could have been too much "in your face" time together.


But is her 87% in the new normal? 

Because if it is not, then it merely delays them working through things. If they need more away time, then figure that out in the context of their marriage. Getting it by her leaving one night a week does not seem workable. That is my point.

Edit - And maybe that is what works for them. My initial impression is that it is not what they are aiming for.


----------



## dallasapple

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Absolutely. Sex should be restored as soon as possible. Plenty of people have sex without commitment.


 But that's not marriage.Its with no other strings attached."stranger sex"..


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> She's with her friend tonight who is going through a nasty divorce and currently hates all men - I think that could be very toxic.


This is a huge problem. I'm going to appeal to other contributors for ideas how to separate a failing wife from the bad influences of her toxic girlfriend


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

dallasapple said:


> But that's not marriage.Its with no other strings attached."stranger sex"..


This may be. It is not of the op's making but it will surely hold him over for a while


----------



## PM1

Intact27 said:


> First thing I will say is that I need to know that there is a commitment from her to work on our relationship - if so she needs to move back home immediately.


Or what?

Having read all of the alpha vs. potential a##-h### behavior discussion, I still agree that being clingy now is not a good idea. I also think making statements like this, with the potential to be utimatums, is dangerous if you are not truly willing to follow through with any consequences. (I don't think this is a true ultimatum, but there is a component of "if you don't do this, I'll do ???" to it)

What I have not seen in this thread is evidence that Intact has truly accepted the possibility of things not working. To do the 180 (from what I've read on this site) it seems like you have to make yourself comfortable with the possibility of being on your own and making the best of yourself in that scenario. I don't think you've allowed that to fully process. I don't think that means give up by any means, but if you cannot accept that option, and are in denial, it just doesn't seem like you can focus on how to make the best of that possible scenario. 

Perhaps if you were processing the ways to make yourself better under a potential divorce, you'd be obsessing less about her decision and have the patience to let her process a bit herself.

Good luck either way. Lots of good people here to bounce ideas off of.


----------



## Intact27

All of this 180 stuff is so easy for people too say. A lot of the actions of the 180 are what got me in this mess in the first place.

I am making arrangements for me and my son for the likely event that she will leave, but it doesn't mean it's easy and I can simply "detach and move on".

At the moment I'm in limbo waiting for whatever decision she is trying too make. It's very hard to move on under these circumstances. At the moment it's taking everything I've got to drag myself out of bed and put on a happy face in front of her and my son.

At the moment I feel like a criminal awaiting a jury's verdict. It sucks and its not fair but there's simply nothing I can do about it.


----------



## Intact27

My wife just told me that she has told the counsellor that she will give her a decision by Tuesday - whether she wants to fight for our marriage or seperate. I feel like I have 3 days to save my marriage.


----------



## dallasapple

> All of this 180 stuff is so easy for people too say. A lot of the actions of the 180 are what got me in this mess in the first place.


The thing is I saw you post that about 15 pages ago.I don't understand why many don't seem to want to absorb that.And no that doesn't mean now you are supposed to be her doormat.I do agree its important as it always should be to take care of your self physically and emotionally to your best ability if that's part of the 180.Your problem doesn't sound like your wife lost her attraction to you because of your physical shape or being emotionally week and needy .

It would make as much sense for all these sexually starved spouses who are thinking of divorcing to tell the one that is neglecting them to do a 180 on them to get their attention and make them rethink divorce cuz look at what they are going to lose.No what you would tell them is if they don't want to lose their spouse if the love them to apologize ask to be forgiven and attempt to start meeting their needs.Is that weak and being a doormat or groveling ?Or is it addressing the ISSUES and trying to make it right?


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> My wife just told me that she has told the counsellor that she will give her a decision by Tuesday - whether she wants to fight for our marriage or seperate. I feel like I have 3 days to save my marriage.


You have 3 days to continue to behave in a manner that will sway her or convince her she wants to stay and work on ya'll's relationship .


----------



## tryingtobebetter

I would be inclined to tell her that you want to fight for your marriage (if that is the truth) and that she may well need more than three days to realise that you have learned the error of your ways and are fully determined always from now to be the husband she hoped for when she married you.

I believe women often need more time in circumstances like this so she should be prepared to give herself (and you and your son) that time.


----------



## Intact27

Well I'm afraid my wife came home a while ago told me she didn't want to be with anymore and didn't want to be a family.

We told our son together - who is devastated - she packed her bag and has gone.

I feel very hurt now but putting on a brave face for my son.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Well I'm afraid my wife came home a while ago told me she didn't want to be with anymore and didn't want to be a family.
> 
> We told our son together - who is devastated - she packed her bag and has gone.
> 
> I feel very hurt now but putting on a brave face for my son.


What changed?Was there a catalyst I thought she was taking the weekend and was intending on going back to the counselor.((((HUGS)))))


----------



## Intact27

I just don't know what to think at the moment. I mean I would still like my marriage to work but is that even likely now?

How should I act with her now?


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> What changed?Was there a catalyst I thought she was taking the weekend and was intending on going back to the counselor.((((HUGS)))))


She just came back and told me she already knew. The session on Tuesday was a trap. Apparently our counsellor told her to tell me in front of her Tuesday so we could have some separation therapy. I'm fuming about that.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I just don't know what to think at the moment. I mean I would still like my marriage to work but is that even likely now?
> 
> How should I act with her now?



How to act?.This is NOT what I want nor is this what our son needs or wants .Its your choice though I cant force you to want us.Goodbye I hope you find what you are looking for .


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> She just came back and told me she already knew. The session on Tuesday was a trap. Apparently our counsellor told her to tell me in front of her Tuesday so we could have some separation therapy. I'm fuming about that.


What is "separation therapy"?


----------



## dallasapple

Oh and yeah I would file for divorce and ask for custody.She has abandoned you and your son.


----------



## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> She just came back and told me she already knew. The session on Tuesday was a trap. Apparently our counsellor told her to tell me in front of her Tuesday so we could have some separation therapy. I'm fuming about that.


Intact

I knew that was the plan. The separation consult is how the two of you will coparent your son while in the process of Divorce.

So put on a brave face for your boy. And one for yourself as well.

You admitted to turning your wife off for several years earlier so here is what you do.

You fix yourself! 
You get yourself ready for the next stage of your life. 
You get in shape.
You heal your head and your heart.
You learn to be happy and make your own happiness.

The key is to fix yourself so you do not make the same mistakes again in your next relationship. Whether that is with your STBX or a new, better woman.

And remember, you have a boy to take care of. That is your primary responsibility after you!

HM64


----------



## This is me

Intact27 said:


> I agree with you and IF we get through this I think it would help.
> 
> But I think it's a massive IF and highly unlikely in all honesty.
> 
> She's with her friend tonight who is going through a nasty divorce and currently hates all men - I think that could be very toxic.


There she is. The partner in crime. I think early in this thread I shared what was happening which was very similar. MLC and a combination of an EA with a younger coworker and "the sister" who was breaking up with her boyfriend. "The sister" will never marry and is a terrible role model for relationships, a shallow person who's life is very self-centered. She and the EA guy both worked with my wife. Partners and support of the depression called MLC and you are to blame for it.

Like I posted very early the MLC will pass. The way I see it is your wife is in the MLC fog and will eventually start to see it clearer in the future, so your job is to give her space, do not cling, do 180 the best you can, be strong, improve yourself so you look more attractive how ever this ends up. This could go on for months, sometimes years, so patience is the key if you want to have any hope of saving this.

I see you making all the mistakes I made. It took 4 months of seperation, MC & IC for both and even marriage workshops before we got back to the way we were, or close to it. I 180 the best I could and in hindsight see this did help change things.

If you want to save your marriage patience is the key, along with making yourself stronger and willing to accept you might have to move on. Otherwise you might as well just move on.

I feel your pain and wish you well.


----------



## Intact27

I am being strong but it's the hardest thing ever - my Son is sobbing asking why Mummy doesn't want to live with us. How she can just pack a bag and leave is beyond me.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I am being strong but it's the hardest thing ever - my Son is sobbing asking why Mummy doesn't want to live with us. How she can just pack a bag and leave is beyond me.


Comfort your son and tell him Mummy isn't thinking right now but that she is at grandmas?And he will be seeing her she just wont be there everyday..I think you should have her talk to him too.She needs to explain herself .But warn her to not blame you .Its not right to put him in the middle of whatever is going on with ya'll.(moreso than he already is)


----------



## Intact27

I think at the moment is for us to have 50/50 custody and I'm ok with that. But it just breaks your heart...

I just text my wife saying he's devastated and she just replied 

"It's only the first day, I wouldn't do this too him if I didnt think this was the right way forward. I love him you know I do"

How can this be the right way forward?


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I think at the moment is for us to have 50/50 custody and I'm ok with that. But it just breaks your heart...
> 
> I just text my wife saying he's devastated and she just replied
> 
> "It's only the first day, I wouldn't do this too him if I didnt think this was the right way forward. I love him you know I do"
> 
> How can this be the right way forward?


Maybe in her mind she is thinking its the right way forward because once the dust settles she will be better capable (a better mother to him ) away from you .If she believes she can NOT love her sons father .When she said "all it would be is a loveless sexless " relationship.Maybe she knows she can't make you happy ..or lets say you will be miserable and so will she and that cant be good for him.Of course this is complete speculation but I can imagine that could possibly be her line of thinking.


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> Maybe in her mind she is thinking its the right way forward because once the dust settles she will be better capable (a better mother to him ) away from you .If she believes she can NOT love her sons father .When she said "all it would be is a loveless sexless " relationship.Maybe she knows she can't make you happy ..or lets say you will be miserable and so will she and that cant be good for him.Of course this is complete speculation but I can imagine that could possibly be her line of thinking.


Possibly, but the love and sex stuff is why you go to MC - it can be fixed. Not always granted. But this just seems so drastic. It's our anniversary next month too (ouch)


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Possibly, but the love and sex stuff is why you go to MC - it can be fixed. Not always granted. But this just seems so drastic. It's our anniversary next month too (ouch)


Being out of love I have gathered is sort of like depression.At the time there can seem no hope for it to ever go away.(or come back as in love)And we can make drastic decisions.Instead of keeping on trying..Its a "hopelessnes" thing its so hard to fathom its temporary...

And I am so sorry this is happening to your family and my heart goes to you and your little boy and your wife too.I'm mad at her and I don't even know her even though I think I might understand "what " she is thinking.


----------



## tryingtobebetter

I wonder if your wife might find this helpful


The Walkaway Wife Syndrome | Psychology Today


----------



## Intact27

I've looked at the Walkaway Wife stuff before and it does seem to fit - from what I gather they rarely come back...

She just popped round to get some stuff - she's taken her wedding ring off and says her mind has never been so clear.

Its all so hurtful.


----------



## tryingtobebetter

Perhaps ask her to read the article?


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I've looked at the Walkaway Wife stuff before and it does seem to fit - from what I gather they rarely come back...
> 
> She just popped round to get some stuff - she's taken her wedding ring off and says her mind has never been so clear.
> 
> Its all so hurtful.



((((HUGS))))))

Not for revenge but take your wedding ring off too.If you wear one...And if I were you pack most her stuff for her and have it ready so she doesn't have to come around so much..


----------



## Intact27

Thing is I want her to come round  and I'm just not ready yet to take my wedding ring off


----------



## dallasapple

intact27 said:


> thing is i want her to come round  and i'm just not ready yet to take my wedding ring off


o.k...((((hugs))))


----------



## livinfree

*Re: Re: Please help me...*



Intact27 said:


> I am being strong but it's the hardest thing ever - my Son is sobbing asking why Mummy doesn't want to live with us. How she can just pack a bag and leave is beyond me.


That was my breaking point in my situation. My wife unloaded on my 12 year old she didn't love daddy anymore and that she was going to divorce me. Then left him sobbing to call her OM for an hour.

I taped the whole disgusting interaction.

I contacted a lawyer shortly there after and filed for divorce.

Go for broke and journal everything you do with your son, photo document everything. Save all receipts. Tape every conversation with your wife. 

Cover your ass if things go pear shaped.

Get you and your son into family counseling asap.

Be your sons rock of stability.

Take the helm.

Be prepared.


----------



## Intact27

Just sent my wife a text saying "please think about this, it's breaking our sons heart - it would be hard for me too now, but there's nothing I wouldn't try to heal his broken heart"

She just replied with

"I do nothing but think. It is hard and he will be sad. He will settle into it. I promise I will keep thinking over the weekend"

I don't for one minute believe she's still thinking about it though, you wouldn't tell your son about it, and then decide to still think about it.


----------



## Intact27

Well my Wife has just been and packed her stuff. She says it is over and she will never change her mind.

We have even sorted a rota with regards to who and when has our Son.

Her Mum (who she's very close too) just told me even she doesn't understand it... I wish I knew what was going on.


----------



## Intact27

She is so convinced that this absolutely the only way forward. The fact not even her Mum understands it says everything. Her Mum said too me "I don't understand it, but I don't think she's ever coming back"

I do wonder if this could be a midlife crisis.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> Just sent my wife a text saying "please think about this, it's breaking our sons heart - it would be hard for me too now, but there's nothing I wouldn't try to heal his broken heart"
> 
> She just replied with
> 
> "I do nothing but think. It is hard and he will be sad. He will settle into it. I promise I will keep thinking over the weekend"
> 
> I don't for one minute believe she's still thinking about it though, you wouldn't tell your son about it, and then decide to still think about it.


You need to stop this now. You look less and less attractive every time you do this. It is not helping your cause, only confirming in her mind her leaving.

She has made her decision (at least for now), so make it real. Work on you and worry about yourself and your son. You can't control her, so work on what you can control.


----------



## Tryingtobreath

Just read the thread. 

I know you've checked email, calls, etc, but this just screams affair.

Have you tried a VAR or anything more aggressive in finding whether there is an affair going on? Remember, do NOT take her word that there isn't someone else.

Just my 2 cents

In my case my EX wife told me there wasn't anyone else.. and it all seemed sooo believeable. She wasn't the lying type. Turns out she was having an affair for the past 2 years.. right through our engagment and our short 1 year of marriage. I had no idea this was going on.. 20 calls a day for the past year to OM went totally unnoticed by me. My point is is that you just may have ZERO clue this is going on.

Some of the stuff your wife is saying reminds me of what mine was during our breakup.

Hang in there. I know this absolutely is the most devastating thing right now.. There are no words to describe the pain felt.


----------



## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> She is so convinced that this absolutely the only way forward. The fact not even her Mum understands it says everything. Her Mum said too me "I don't understand it, but I don't think she's ever coming back"
> 
> I do wonder if this could be a midlife crisis.


Intact,

It is her crisis to deal with. The fact that your wife would not do any counseling or explain to you or her Mom her real reasons for leaving you and your kid just shows how selfish she is.

It also shows you how lost she is in life.

Be there for your boy.
Take care of yourself.
Heal and find your center. It will take a while but it will happen.

And stop asking yourself or her why she is doing this. Because she has no clue herself.

Be strong.


HM64


----------



## Intact27

happyman64 said:


> Intact,
> 
> It is her crisis to deal with. The fact that your wife would not do any counseling or explain to you or her Mom her real reasons for leaving you and your kid just shows how selfish she is.
> 
> It also shows you how lost she is in life.
> 
> Be there for your boy.
> Take care of yourself.
> Heal and find your center. It will take a while but it will happen.
> 
> And stop asking yourself or her why she is doing this. Because she has no clue herself.
> 
> Be strong.
> 
> 
> HM64


I know this is good advice and I am trying but it's difficult at the moment.

I am going to the "seperation counselling" with her tomorrow just to see if anything comes out. Then we meet again on Thursday to close our joint bank account... It's all so final...

How often does this type of scenario work out? I know my chances of ever rebuilding my family must be very slim.


----------



## This is me

There is no rhyme or reason to how these end up. The Depression of the MLC is something that runs its own course with the individual many factors come into play with how they work through it. Pretty safe to say you should 180 and prepare for a new life without her. If things change, be patient, but it sounds like she is on the track to end it all.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> I know this is good advice and I am trying but it's difficult at the moment.
> 
> I am going to the "seperation counselling" with her tomorrow just to see if anything comes out. Then we meet again on Thursday to close our joint bank account... It's all so final...
> 
> How often does this type of scenario work out? I know my chances of ever rebuilding my family must be very slim.


Frankly, you have given up to much control in this whole situation. In your zeal to love her back into the relationship, everything is now about her and her schedule - when she tells you things, when you talk, when you do things.

That you accept it is not helping you. You look less in her eyes because you are just taking it. Not saying you need to lash out. But you do need to be strong and start taking action.

So consider doing just that. Why do you need to wait until Thursday to close your joint account, and why some special appointment? Do it tomorrow and if she can't go, then do it yourself, with her getting a bank check for half. 

Make this separation as real as possible for her at this point. again, not mean or cruel, but no longer a resource for her to rely on. Be crystal clear that while you are willing to work on the marriage, her moving on means you doing the same and that her choice means you are no longer a team or looking out for her. That is her new full-time job.


----------



## Intact27

It annoys me because my Wife doesn't see the devastation. When she's with our Son she's at her mum and dads house - and that's pretty cool for him and exciting. But when he's with me - he's in the family home and doesn't understand why she won't be here with us.

Every night he is breaking my heart and she can't even see it. She just thinks this is "the only way forward"


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> It annoys me because my Wife doesn't see the devastation. When she's with our Son she's at her mum and dads house - and that's pretty cool for him and exciting. But when he's with me - he's in the family home and doesn't understand why she won't be here with us.
> 
> Every night he is breaking my heart and she can't even see it. She just thinks this is "the only way forward"


Two things:

1) Absolutely don't let her see you complain about this. You can vent here all you want, but you need to show your wife a strong person who is handling the crap that life has thrown at him. 

2) While you don't have to be happy about things, you do need to learn that she is free to make her own choices (and mistakes). You can't control her. It sucks, and your son is paying for it, but you can't do a dang thing about it. I lost a ton of stress when I reached that point about a lot of things in life. It is not easy to do and it will take some time, but keep working at it.


----------



## turnera

You want her back? Really back? Then pack all her shyte, leave it all outside, change the locks, and start going out. You want her to want you? Let her see you out having a BLAST as a single dad - suddenly, the boring whiney husband who begs her to come home is gone and this hot stud replaced him.


----------



## Viseral

turnera said:


> You want her back? Really back? Then pack all her shyte, leave it all outside, change the locks, and start going out. You want her to want you? Let her see you out having a BLAST as a single dad - suddenly, the boring whiney husband who begs her to come home is gone and this hot stud replaced him.


Thank you. Finally some sanity in this whole thread. There has been way way too much touchy feely advice given to Intact here. 

He needed to man up from the beginning so he'd be more attractive in his wife's eyes. Now we've all seen the result of men who are too nice. Women are simply not attracted to it.

Intact, sorry bro, we care about you and your son. Now, for the love of Pete, grieve, then get your game on and man up. Hit the gym, get some new clothes, start going out and dating, set firm boundaries with the women you meet so that they respect you, and take good care of your boy.


----------



## Intact27

Well we went to our last couples counselling today.

She is adamant that this will give her a better life. She can't be with me, doesn't like my attitude and doesn't and won't love me and apparently things have been wrong for a long time and our counsellor suggested that perhaps we were never compatible.


----------



## Intact27

Also the counsellor told me that I had to accept the marriage was now over. Hard stuff to hear.


----------



## Rags

No matter what - follow the advice you've been given - sort yourself out, get fit, be independant.

This serves several purposes, and it works no matter what outcome occurs - you get better.

Your getting better might make her want to reconcile.
It might not. But if it doesn't, it leaves you in a better position - more confident, and healthier, and if/when you start dating again, in a much better place to do so.

There is no down side to that aspect of improving yourself. It's good for YOU, no matter what.


----------



## Intact27

Rags said:


> No matter what - follow the advice you've been given - sort yourself out, get fit, be independant.
> 
> This serves several purposes, and it works no matter what outcome occurs - you get better.
> 
> Your getting better might make her want to reconcile.
> It might not. But if it doesn't, it leaves you in a better position - more confident, and healthier, and if/when you start dating again, in a much better place to do so.
> 
> There is no down side to that aspect of improving yourself. It's good for YOU, no matter what.


I know you're right I'm just hurting at the moment. My wife even said she would like to start dating per men soon.


----------



## Rags

Intact27 said:


> I know you're right I'm just hurting at the moment. My wife even said she would like to start dating per men soon.


I'm sorry you're going through this. Also sorry if I came across a little harsh and unemotional. (I get that sometimes - I tend to focus on practicalities - always looking to solve the problem, rather than empathising.)

It looks like a hideous situation. I hope it gets better for you.


----------



## Intact27

Rags said:


> I'm sorry you're going through this. Also sorry if I came across a little harsh and unemotional. (I get that sometimes - I tend to focus on practicalities - always looking to solve the problem, rather than empathising.)
> 
> It looks like a hideous situation. I hope it gets better for you.


Not at all, I do thank you for your advice - I do know you're right.

I really think her mind is made up and she will never come back.

It feels a bit like I'm mourning the death of someone at the moment.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Not at all, I do thank you for your advice - I do know you're right.
> 
> I really think her mind is made up and she will never come back.
> 
> It feels a bit like I'm mourning the death of someone at the moment.



((((HUGS))))

My understanding divorce can be as stressful or more than a death.

I also agree that her mind is made up and she will never come back for now.She may or may not eventually regret her decision.In the meantime you do need to grieve.You should keep going to counseling and get your little boy into counseling too and start taking steps to move on and adjust to life without her.Try to start getting out and do things you enjoy and I agree with the others as far as excersize and eat right(if you don't already) those are things we all need to be doing anyway.Go do fun things with your son to cheer him up.


----------



## Hicks

When she sees you living a nice life, not caring about her, being a good father.... And when her fantasy does equal her reality, she will likely want to come back.

Let her go to get her back.


----------



## Intact27

Hicks said:


> When she sees you living a nice life, not caring about her, being a good father.... And when her fantasy does equal her reality, she will likely want to come back.
> 
> Let her go to get her back.


I know people say this, but does it actually happen? I always thought it was something people said to make others feel better...

Been doing a bit round the house today and just making it a bit more of a "lads pad" for my Son and I. This actually made me feel a little better - although by tonight I could be an absolute mess again lol


----------



## dallasapple

> He needed to man up from the beginning so he'd be more attractive in his wife's eyes. Now we've all seen the result of men who are too nice. Women are simply not attracted to it.


Have you even read his whole thread? His wife wasn't unattracted to him because he was "too nice"."From the beginning" was nine years ago(at least that's how long they have been married) their relationship didn't start from the date of his first post in this thread.

I think what it is and it happens...by the time she decided she wanted to leave she had been feeling that way for a long time and him being nice to her didn't convince her she should invest emotionally in him again or lets say it didn't inspire the desired feelings.I also don't think jumping up and putting on his best pair of jeans and spiffing up with a new haircut and cologne and running around flirting or "dating" other women ...pretending like she didn't exist in his mind or like'" well if your leaving bye I'm going out" or "locking her out of the house " or any of that would have had a positive outcome only reinforced she doesn't belong with him.


----------



## dallasapple

> I know people say this, but does it actually happen? I always thought it was something people said to make others feel better...


It can happen IF she is entertaining a fantasy.She very well though could also be grounded in reality has an idea whats in store and this is what she wants and she will feel better off without you than with you .


----------



## dallasapple

Hicks said:


> When she sees you living a nice life, not caring about her, being a good father.... And when her fantasy does equal her reality, she will likely want to come back.
> 
> Let her go to get her back.


She could also see him and be happy for him he moved on .The way this is phrased every woman (and man too I suppose?) that decides they want to get a divorce and go on in life without that relationship all regret it and wish they could reverse it .YES that happens but that is not always the case.I have met men and women who divorced and some not only don't want their spouse back their main regret is they should have done it sooner.Or even that they ever married the person in the first place.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> I know people say this, but does it actually happen? I always thought it was something people said to make others feel better...
> 
> Been doing a bit round the house today and just making it a bit more of a "lads pad" for my Son and I. This actually made me feel a little better - although by tonight I could be an absolute mess again lol


Well, it certainly won't if you mope around the house feeling sorry for your self. You may not like my post, but I have to tell you that your posts are filled with self-pity and whining. You lsot your wife and you want to wallow in your misery.

Life sucks. No two ways around it. But you can't control her, only yourself. Learn from your mistakes and become a better person. Whatever mistakes you made in your marriage do not mean you are sentenced to a life of misery. I am sure she made mistakes as well, but I don't see her getting that sentence.

So go and work on making yourself happy. Start up your hobbies. Take your kids out. Go out with friends. Talk to other women. You don't have to jump into dating yet but get comfortable with the idea that you can interact with anyone you want. Look at it as practice on being single.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

dallasapple said:


> She could also see him and be happy for him he moved on .The way this is phrased every woman (and man too I suppose?) that decides they want to get a divorce and go on in life without that relationship all regret it and wish they could reverse it .YES that happens but that is not always the case.I have met men and women who divorced and some not only don't want their spouse back their main regret is they should have done it sooner.Or even that they ever married the person in the first place.


Absolutely. But is he mopes around depressed all day, there is absolutely no way she comes back. So he needs to do this work for himself. If she does come back, he then can decide if he wants to work it out with her. If she does not, he is still better off for it.


----------



## dallasapple

Tall Average Guy said:


> Absolutely. But is he mopes around depressed all day, there is absolutely no way she comes back. So he needs to do this work for himself. If she does come back, he then can decide if he wants to work it out with her. If she does not, he is still better off for it.


I agree but he needs to do that for HIMSELF.Like you said its not a life sentence as in his life is over .I do think however is NORMAL for someone to become depressed that their spouse whom they LOVE has left them as well a he is dealing with the aftermath of the affect on his son.Something would be terribly wrong IMHO if a man or a woman is informed by their spouse they don't love them and want a divorce.And within a few weeks they VACATE the home and it barely phases them.In fact it for me would be an indicator for why their spouse wanted to leave in the first place.I do not think being in SHOCK over something like this and needing a LITTLE time to absorb it is "moping' and "self pity"..


----------



## Tall Average Guy

dallasapple said:


> I agree but he needs to do that for HIMSELF.Like you said its not a life sentence as in his life is over .I do think however is NORMAL for someone to become depressed that their spouse whom they LOVE has left them as well a he is dealing with the aftermath of the affect on his son.Something would be terribly wrong IMHO if a man or a woman is informed by their spouse they don't love them and want a divorce.And within a few weeks they VACATE the home and it barely phases them.In fact it for me would be an indicator for why their spouse wanted to leave in the first place.I do not think being in SHOCK over something like this and needing a LITTLE time to absorb it is "moping' and "self pity"..


If his posts showed anything but that, I would agree. But that is all I see. No anger about her poor treatment of him (and that ambush was piss-poor treatment). No nothing except "whoa is me." If he is depressed, then he needs to get to a doctor to see what he can do.

But part of life is faking it until you can make it. It is a death, and while he can mourn it, the world continues to go around. His child still needs to be cared for. He still needs to separate finances and figure out the divorce arrangements. He still needs to go to work. So taking steps to keep distance between them, finding new things to occupy his time and try his best to start the process of moving on is what he needs to do.


----------



## dallasapple

> No anger about her poor treatment of him (and that ambush was piss-poor treatment). No nothing except "whoa is me." If he is depressed, then he needs to get to a doctor to see what he can do.


He said he wanted to shake her and yell WHY are you doing this.How can you do this to our son even.Besides that anger is an emotion that stems from other emotions.




> Been doing a bit round the house today and just making it a bit more of a "lads pad" for my Son and I. This actually made me feel a little better - although by tonight I could be an absolute mess again lol


He also mentioned this .So he isn't just curled up in a ball completely paralyzed.Its only been a few days since he found out she is leaving and not coming back for Christ sake.Let him catch his breath.Running away from our feelings only DELAYS us experiencing them.

One of the strongest men I know.Ex fighter pilot..later a commercial airline pilot..Husband and father of 3 daughters and grandfather..One of the most "even keeled" calm men I have ever met..Just had an utter and complete nervous breakdown at 70 years old and had to be hospitalized and put on heavy duty drugs because his wife is deteriating slowly from MS.Is he a weak sniveling self pitying man too?Should he get up and go buy a new wardrobe and start meeting new people and having a blast?

As mentioned divorce is very similar to a death .


----------



## Tall Average Guy

dallasapple said:


> He said he wanted to shake her and yell WHY are you doing this.How can you do this to our son even.Besides that anger is an emotion that stems from other emotions.


Fair enough. I missed that, but I still don't see any anger over how he has been treated. 



> He also mentioned this .So he isn't just curled up in a ball completely paralyzed.Its only been a few days since he found out she is leaving and not coming back for Christ sake.Let him catch his breath.Running away from our feelings only DELAYS us experiencing them.


Which is why he needs to do more of it. These activities are good for him. I am recommending that he do that. Not to run away from his feelings but to start processing them. Dwelling on them 24/7 is no more healthy than running away from them. 



> One of the strongest men I know.Ex fighter pilot..later a commercial airline pilot..Husband and father of 3 daughters and grandfather..One of the most "even keeled" calm men I have ever met..Just had an utter and complete nervous breakdown at 70 years old and had to be hospitalized and put on heavy duty drugs because his wife is deteriating slowly from MS.Is he a weak sniveling self pitying man too?Should he get up and go buy a new wardrobe and start meeting new people and having a blast?
> 
> As mentioned divorce is very similar to a death .


No, he is not, and that comparison does not work. But could that break down have been prevented if he had done a bit more for himself. Things like taking short breaks to focus on other things, visiting friends, doing things with his daughters or grandkids. I don't know what occured there, but those things are necessary to help us process grief.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> I know people say this, but does it actually happen? I always thought it was something people said to make others feel better...


In fact, it happens all the time. However, none of us can predict the future. You have a son and a house and you need help. If I were you I would start seriously looking for a new partner as soon as possible like later on today.


----------



## turnera

Intact27 said:


> I know people say this, but does it actually happen? I always thought it was something people said to make others feel better...


It's basic psychology. Man ranking, and all that. We want what we can't have and if someone follows us around like a puppy dog, we grow to detest them. Once you are off and out having a great time, you will once again 'look good' to her. No guarantee, of course, but by then you'll be enjoying yourself so much you probably won't care if she wants you back, you'll have seen how many other women there are out there who will also want you.


----------



## PM1

turnera said:


> It's basic psychology. Man ranking, and all that. We want what we can't have and if someone follows us around like a puppy dog, we grow to detest them. Once you are off and out having a great time, you will once again 'look good' to her. No guarantee, of course, but by then you'll be enjoying yourself so much you probably won't care if she wants you back, you'll have seen how many other women there are out there who will also want you.


It seems to me, and I think someone else touched on it, that the other benefit to this approach is personal healing. If you grieve and get to the healing stage of accepting things and maybe truly being able to move on, you will be following a healthy process whether or not she comes back. 

You're dead on that this sucks. I think it actually speaks well of you that you are upset to lose your marriage. At least on some level you valued it. Good luck moving through this, and best to you and your son. Be strong for him, and gain strength from doing right by him.


----------



## turnera

You're right, PM1. But usually when a woman cheats, a man is so devastated that he instantly loses all self esteem and can't SEE that part of the equation - it becomes all about her, and all about her WANTING him (or not). So it's especially hard to get men to see that they should just focus on themselves, because they've taken the betrayal so personally. So if we can get them to just walk the walk first, the healing shows up soon enough.


----------



## happyman64

Intact

Time to focus on you. Incompatible my @ss!

Let Her Go!

And have a great life. That would be my revenge.

So embrace your new life and take full advantage of it.

I think in a few months you will be in a better place.

HM64


----------



## Intact27

I am trying my best to move on. Its difficult at times. I don't see my boy now until Saturday night - I find that especially hard.

I've made plans though and I am out with friends for the next 3 nights...

Saw my Wife last night and she was so upbeat. She has joined a book club and a new exercise class - she seems to be really enjoying life.


----------



## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> I am trying my best to move on. Its difficult at times. I don't see my boy now until Saturday night - I find that especially hard.
> 
> I've made plans though and I am out with friends for the next 3 nights...
> 
> Saw my Wife last night and she was so upbeat. She has joined a book club and a new exercise class - she seems to be really enjoying life.


You fake it till you make it. You should try it.

And you should be enjoying life too!


----------



## Intact27

happyman64 said:


> You fake it till you make it. You should try it.
> 
> And you should be enjoying life too!


That's exactly what I am doing. I have detached. I don't text or phone my wife unless it is something do with our son. I don't ask where she is, where she is going etc.

At this point I'm very much "faking it" and I don't know if it will do me any good with regards to my marriage but it has to be worth a go.


----------



## Hicks

dallasapple said:


> She could also see him and be happy for him he moved on .The way this is phrased every woman (and man too I suppose?) that decides they want to get a divorce and go on in life without that relationship all regret it and wish they could reverse it .YES that happens but that is not always the case.I have met men and women who divorced and some not only don't want their spouse back their main regret is they should have done it sooner.Or even that they ever married the person in the first place.


Abosultely not implied.
A man has to become the best choice for his wife to return to him. She won't come back unless he is a good option. He has to have the personal confidence and qualities to be that good option. The best way for him to show her what he is made of is to protect and create a great life for his children.
And there are no guarantees to anything. OP's marriage is in dire shape, so he has nothign to lose by leetting go, since there is nothing there.


----------



## turnera

It's not about doing good for your MARRIAGE. It's about what YOU need to heal from the atomic bomb she aimed at you. If you can get to a healthy place where you're ok with or without her, THEN you can consider MAYBE taking her back some day - if she changes.


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> It's not about doing good for your MARRIAGE. It's about what YOU need to heal from the atomic bomb she aimed at you. If you can get to a healthy place where you're ok with or without her, THEN you can consider MAYBE taking her back some day - if she changes.


I do understand this - and I am genuine when I say although I'm faking it I am trying to make my life better fro myself and my Son. However, although it seems fatal, I'm not prepared to give up on the idea of my marriage just yet...


----------



## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> I do understand this - and I am genuine when I say although I'm faking it I am trying to make my life better fro myself and my Son. However, although it seems fatal, I'm not prepared to give up on the idea of my marriage just yet...


Listen to Turnera. She is right. 

You what you need to do to protect yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

Intact27 said:


> I don't see my boy now until Saturday night - I find that especially hard.


If you don't mind my asking, what are the arrangements with your son?


----------



## OnTheRocks

Intact27 said:


> I know you're right I'm just hurting at the moment. My wife even said she would like to start dating *other(?)* men soon.


Probably starting with the one she's been having an affair with. 

Manning up and moving on is for YOU, not your ex. If she happens to have a change of heart later, fine, but don't count on it. You have GOT to stop wallowing for your own good.

I've never seen a thread on here with so much bad advice.


----------



## turnera

You never know. She may see you getting a life and suddenly desire you.

But she will NEVER desire you now, while you stay put and have no life to admire.


----------



## Intact27

Ten_year_hubby said:


> If you don't mind my asking, what are the arrangements with your son?


At the moment we have him 50/50.

I get how reading this thread people could think I'm wallowing - and maybe I am ON HERE. But the truth is, to her I look happy.

I have been and bought new clothes, I am going out tonight with friends. I have decluttered our house and made it a "lads pad" for me and the boy. I do still wear my wedding ring, although she doesn't wear hers. Should I remove it?

- I no longer have contact with her unless it is about our Son


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> At the moment we have him 50/50.
> 
> I get how reading this thread people could think I'm wallowing - and maybe I am ON HERE. But the truth is, to her I look happy.
> 
> I have been and bought new clothes, I am going out tonight with friends. I have decluttered our house and made it a "lads pad" for me and the boy. I do still wear my wedding ring, although she doesn't wear hers. Should I remove it?
> 
> - I no longer have contact with her unless it is about our Son


I just want to say I believe you ...in fact you have stated over and over you are calm and act "O.K" emotionally around her.That you come here to be "weak"(which I disagree you are but still).I really can't understand why people claim you are "wallowing" just because you even friggen want to talk about your feelings over this and you aren't whistling dixie in a daisy field completely over your wife of 9 years in 72 hours..


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> I just want to say I believe you ...in fact you have stated over and over you are calm and act "O.K" emotionally around her.That you come hear to be "weak"(which I disagree you are but still).I really can't understand why people claim you are "wallowing" just because you even friggen want to talk about your feelings over this and you aren't whistling dixie in a daisy field completely over your wife of 9 years in 72 hours..


Thanks I appreciate that...

The truth is through all of this I have had every emotion known to man. An unbelievable sadness, anger, frustration all of it...

I am pretty certain my marriage is over - I am doing my very best to move on but it hurts but I realise it's something I have to do for myself and my boy...

If this is a "walkaway wife" then from what I gather the chances of her coming back are incredibly slim - I do realise this...

I'm pretty certain my Wife will start dating again soon (she could be already as someone suggested) I think she would still be rather secretive to keep up appearances for family and friends etc. If she is it will hurt deeply, but I will put a brave face on and she will not see the hurt.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Thanks I appreciate that...
> 
> The truth is through all of this I have had every emotion known to man. An unbelievable sadness, anger, frustration all of it...
> 
> I am pretty certain my marriage is over - I am doing my very best to move on but it hurts but I realise it's something I have to do for myself and my boy...
> 
> If this is a "walkaway wife" then from what I gather the chances of her coming back are incredibly slim - I do realise this...
> 
> I'm pretty certain my Wife will start dating again soon (she could be already as someone suggested) I think she would still be rather secretive to keep up appearances for family and friends etc. If she is it will hurt deeply, but I will put a brave face on and she will not see the hurt.


My husband cheated on me many years agf course we were married at the time and not even separted..When I found out I lost feeling in my legs became dizzy collapsed on to the ground in a heaping pile of sobs right in front of him.Him seeing the pain he caused me is what he deserved (as if I had any real control over it anyway )..and I have never been ashamed or felt "unbrave" that he saw it.Only human.


----------



## Hicks

Men are wired to rescue a Damsel in distress.

Women are wired to be repulsed by whimpering crying man.


----------



## dallasapple

Hicks said:


> Men are wired to rescue a Damsel in distress.
> 
> Women are wired to be repulsed by whimpering crying man.


There is a difference in a "whimpering crying man" and being overwhelmed at times with raw emotion befitting the circumstances.

And besides that I believe its more to do with "training' than "wiring" or men wouldn't have the ability to feel sadness and cry in the first place(starting as an infant ) or is that a birth defect in some males?

On top of expressing pain (hurt) comes out in the long run in some way including inappropriate or out of proportion anger outburst..But hey its "manly' to scream and curse and punch a wall. thats socially approved of(and understandable).."men will be men"


----------



## dallasapple

Hicks said:


> Men are wired to rescue a Damsel in distress.
> 
> Women are wired to be repulsed by whimpering crying man.


Oh and by the way I'm a woman believe it or not..And I'm repulsed by an emotionless man who is afraid to "cry" for fear his pride might be injured.When we all know good and well unless you are a sociopath its in there just its being stuffed..But hey have a heart attack or wait til you have stuffed it enough and committ suicide.Thats real brave .I guess men are "hard wired" to do that too..


----------



## dallasapple

Knock Knock..

Q: Why do men have tear ducts and the ability to produce tears?

A: Well to wash his eyes out when he is peeling an onion of course!

Silly willy why else would they be HARD WIRED for it?


----------



## Intact27

So my wife just came round the house to pick up a few bits. I have to say she seems really happy, and looks really good. In fact it's quite upsetting how happy she seems.

She asked if I had a good night last night as she knew I went out I just said "yes thanks".

I was pleasant to her but didn't ask what she was doing etc 

She started to tell me about her day at work and I made sure there was plenty of eye contact. As she left she just said "have a good evening"

That's the most upsetting thing though - how happy she seems.


----------



## happyman64

Do not be upset by it. Of course she is happy, she is getting her wish.

Put on a brave face. Keep getting out there yourself.

And make yourself one promise.

THE NEXT WOMAN WILL BE 10x better than her!

That is how your next stage of your life should be......

Better!


----------



## Intact27

happyman64 said:


> Do not be upset by it. Of course she is happy, she is getting her wish.
> 
> Put on a brave face. Keep getting out there yourself.
> 
> And make yourself one promise.
> 
> THE NEXT WOMAN WILL BE 10x better than her!
> 
> That is how your next stage of your life should be......
> 
> Better!


I will keep going out etc and the truth is I'm doing ok... But I really don't understand how she can be that happy with her decision - unless of course she is faking it too.


----------



## happyman64

Stop wasting brain power on her or her happiness. Focus on you.

And if she wants to start dating tell her she should have enough respect for you to wait until the divorce is final.

If she goes out and dates then realize you are seeing the real woman you were married to.

And why does she keep walking in your house?


----------



## Intact27

happyman64 said:


> Stop wasting brain power on her or her happiness. Focus on you.
> 
> And if she wants to start dating tell her she should have enough respect for you to wait until the divorce is final.
> 
> If she goes out and dates then realize you are seeing the real woman you were married to.
> 
> And why does she keep walking in your house?


She comes round quite a lot - she always knocks. Generally pops round to pick things up but she never seems to take a car load - just little bits at a time.


----------



## happyman64

I think you should shed some of your nice guyness.

Pack up all her clothes in hefty trash bags.

Put them in the garage or on the porch

You see Intact. You can give her what she wants. Her freedom. You cannot control her.

But you can do it in your own way. Your actions can say I am no longer the doormat you wipe your feet on. You are a user but I am no longer letting you use me.

It is a choice Intact.

You can be the best parent with her, but that does not mean yOu have to be friends.

It is a choice Intact.


----------



## turnera

Intact27 said:


> She comes round quite a lot - she always knocks. Generally pops round to pick things up but she never seems to take a car load - just little bits at a time.


 Isn't it about time you pack her stuff up and put it in the garage? You want her back? THAT is the #1 way to get her interested again.


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> Isn't it about time you pack her stuff up and put it in the garage? You want her back? THAT is the #1 way to get her interested again.


I could pack the stuff up but I guess I like her popping round.

Why on earth would it get her interested if I pack everything up?


----------



## OnTheRocks

Get some self respect, man! Start hating her guts for destroying your family!


----------



## turnera

Intact27 said:


> I could pack the stuff up but I guess I like her popping round.
> 
> Why on earth would it get her interested if I pack everything up?


 Because you are being DOORMAT to the extreme and that DISGUSTS women.

Women biologically want STRONG men who KNOW what they want and TAKE what they want (think caveman days - it's in our DNA). Women biologically shy away from - and grow to HATE - men who keep their wandering wife's stuff in the house in the hopes that she will 'pop in' now and then, just so he can get a whiff of her perfume.

If she saw you saying 'fine! get lost! I have lots to offer other women who will treat me better' and then going out and having fun WITHOUT HER, suddenly you rise up in the ranks of desire.

She has been feeding her ego by knowing that you are sitting there pining away for her. Amusing, but not attractive.


----------



## janefw

turnera said:


> Because you are being DOORMAT to the extreme and that DISGUSTS women.
> 
> Women biologically want STRONG men who KNOW what they want and TAKE what they want (think caveman days - it's in our DNA). Women biologically shy away from - and grow to HATE - men who keep their wandering wife's stuff in the house in the hopes that she will 'pop in' now and then, just so he can get a whiff of her perfume.
> 
> If she saw you saying 'fine! get lost! I have lots to offer other women who will treat me better' and then going out and having fun WITHOUT HER, suddenly you rise up in the ranks of desire.
> 
> She has been feeding her ego by knowing that you are sitting there pining away for her. Amusing, but not attractive.


Wait a minute. YOU might want a caveman, but not every woman has your same DNA. IME, most women want a man who is strong enough _not _to act like a caveman. 

The OP said in another part of this thread that he has in fact acted like an a$$hole during the marriage. So, if he has become a doormat now, he wasn't one before, and it seems it was his [email protected]@hole-ishness that drove his wife away (his caveman side IOW) and not his current doormat behavior.


----------



## turnera

Come on, I don't mean a club your woman over the head caveman. I mean one who isn't waiting by the door hoping she'll stop by.

I get what you mean about not being an ******* and I never suggested that. I suggested showing her that he will get on with his life if she doesn't want him.


----------



## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> I could pack the stuff up but I guess I like her popping round.
> 
> Why on earth would it get her interested if I pack everything up?


Because that act tells her you are ready to move on. That you no longer need her.

It shows her that you are the man that can walk on his own and think on his own.

Weren't you single when she was first attracted to you?

Well guess what, you do this and it shows her you are ready to be single again.

"Let Her Go"

She will get the message and you need to send it!


----------



## OnTheRocks

I know it sucks - a lot of us have been there - but she is no longer the woman you fell in love with and married. She is creating a different future for herself now. The sooner you accept this, the better off you will be. Be strong and stable, both for yourself and for your son. Whatever she does from here on out is not your problem.


----------



## bizzy79

I have just read this entire thread (over the course of the last couple of days). Wow, what a time you have had.

Despite what some say, I think you have coped very well (especially on the outside anyway) 

You said that you have been going out in the last few days- what kind of things have you been getting up to? Is it things where you can potentially meet new ladies?

I really hope you find happiness, be that with a new future partner, with 'just the boys' (i.e. you and your son) or with a reconciliation with your wife (if you even want that should she want to come back?).


----------



## Intact27

bizzy79 said:


> I have just read this entire thread (over the course of the last couple of days). Wow, what a time you have had.
> 
> Despite what some say, I think you have coped very well (especially on the outside anyway)
> 
> You said that you have been going out in the last few days- what kind of things have you been getting up to? Is it things where you can potentially meet new ladies?
> 
> I really hope you find happiness, be that with a new future partner, with 'just the boys' (i.e. you and your son) or with a reconciliation with your wife (if you even want that should she want to come back?).


Thanks for this. I've just been going out to my local pub with friends on the evening. I'm not ready to meet anyone else just yet and I'd like nothing more than to work things out with my wife.

She "Facebook divorced me today too


----------



## anchorwatch

Sorry Intact, she must have been divorced in her head a long time. Too bad she wasn't respectful enough to give you a bloody six weeks to get there yourself. You may not see it yet, but with all this disrespect with the wedding ring, FB status and wanting to date right off, it will give you reason to dislike her and sort yourself out sooner. I'd wager she's got a dating profile up on the web already. 

Stay strong, you'll get there.


----------



## bizzy79

Intact27 said:


> Thanks for this. I've just been going out to my local pub with friends on the evening. I'm not ready to meet anyone else just yet and I'd like nothing more than to work things out with my wife.
> 
> She "Facebook divorced me today too



Oh I see... Well screw Facebook! Although I have an account I hate it really (has contributed to nearly every problem I have ever had with my wife).

Glad to hear you are getting out...just hope you don't drink toooo heavily if you know what I mean (to forget, or whatever). I do like a drink meself though lol 

Only time will tell if you and your wife can patch things up- but I can see your side of things (and that at the moment, you are 'faking' being happy to her). But it does seem like it may never happen, so getting yourself out there may end up in you feeling better about yourself- and who knows you may meet someone one day!

I did go through something marginally similar to you in 2008, and my wife did only 'leave' for one day before deciding that she did want to come back. But I still have my doubts to this day whether she actually believes that was the right decision or not.

I hope, for your sake, that if she does make an attempt to reconcile- that you are both 100% that it is the right thing to do.

But, whether it does or doesn't happen- make sure you enjoy yourself! This site has made me realise that there some wonderful people out there, even when you feel as low as you have done recently.


----------



## turnera

Intact27 said:


> She "Facebook divorced me today too


 Have some fun with it. Contact everyone who you two share, and make a comment about it - "Geez, I guess she just can't wait to get into Joe's bed, since she's 'divorcing' me on FB. Would have been nice if she'd at least have the dignity to wait til we were legally divorced."


----------



## anchorwatch

turnera said:


> Have some fun with it. Contact everyone who you two share, and make a comment about it - "Geez, I guess she just can't wait to get into Joe's bed, since she's 'divorcing' me on FB. Would have been nice if she'd at least have the dignity to wait til we were legally divorced."


I missed that. There was someone all along.


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> I missed that. There was someone all along.


Have no idea she was still saying that there wasn't anybody but I don't believe much of what comes out of her mouth at the moment.


----------



## Intact27

After I had the message on Facebook I text her saying "nice to see we are ivorced?" She responded by deleting her whole facebook profile - this seems a very odd reaction.


----------



## turnera

She's afraid you're going to tell her friends.


----------



## turnera

All the more reason to tell her friends.


----------



## anchorwatch

She doesn't want you to see whats she's up too. A hint that if she can't do it in front of you.... well you don't have to be told what she's up to.


----------



## bizzy79

Intact27 said:


> After I had the message on Facebook I text her saying "nice to see we are ivorced?" She responded by deleting her whole facebook profile - this seems a very odd reaction.


Are you sure she has deleted it, and not just blocked you?

If you want, I can check for you (PM me a name if you want- just a suggestion).

:scratchhead:


----------



## Intact27

Ok thanks will pm you.


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> All the more reason to tell her friends.


Tell them what?


----------



## bizzy79

Intact27 said:


> Ok thanks will pm you.


I did reply to your pm, but am unsure if it worked 


Anyway, I couldn't find any profiles with the exact name you gave me. But it could be that she has it set up in a strange way so that I couldn't see it. Or, could just be she HAS deleted it!


----------



## Intact27

bizzy79 said:


> I did reply to your pm, but am unsure if it worked
> 
> 
> Anyway, I couldn't find any profiles with the exact name you gave me. But it could be that she has it set up in a strange way so that I couldn't see it. Or, could just be she HAS deleted it!


Thanks - I'm pretty sure she's deleted it which seems a very strange thing to do for someone in this scenario.


----------



## bizzy79

Intact27 said:


> Thanks - I'm pretty sure she's deleted it which seems a very strange thing to do for someone in this scenario.


Yeah I can't quite figure it out. Unless she is going to start a whole new profile. Actually- a friends Ex did this when they split, so could be that I guess? 

Anyway, try not to dwell on it... (easier said that done I know)

Do you have your son this weekend?


----------



## Intact27

bizzy79 said:


> Yeah I can't quite figure it out. Unless she is going to start a whole new profile. Actually- a friends Ex did this when they split, so could be that I guess?
> 
> Anyway, try not to dwell on it... (easier said that done I know)
> 
> Do you have your son this weekend?


Yes I have him from tomorrow evening until Wednesday night.


----------



## bizzy79

Intact27 said:


> Yes I have him from tomorrow evening until Wednesday night.


I hope you dudes have a wonderful weekend!


----------



## OnTheRocks

You can shut your FB account down temporarily without deleting it. My exW disabled hers for some reason for a few weeks right around when our D was final, too. 

+1 there has been someone else all along.


----------



## Intact27

OnTheRocks said:


> You can shut your FB account down temporarily without deleting it. My exW disabled hers for some reason for a few weeks right around when our D was final, too.
> 
> +1 there has been someone else all along.


Yep think you could well be right about there being someone else all along. It would certainly join a lot of the dots. Ie. her need to get out, uncertainty, happy to only see her son 3 nights a week etc.


----------



## turnera

Have you hired a PI?


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> Have you hired a PI?


Can't really afford one and not sure what good it would do now, anyway.


----------



## Ellen Steve

Every marriage needs a little help along the way. After being married for almost forty years, my spouse and I have found that a yearly counseling session will get us on the right track. When you have been with someone for many years you do get bored. This is a given. How often do you change your circle of friends? Your main friend is always there, but outlining friendships change. The same thing happens in marriage. Find a way to rekindle excitement and newness. Teach each other about what you like to do and where you want to go in life. Get to know one another. Let open communication be a part of your life. We have found that if we do something simple like walk the dog, conversation opens up. We generally end up walking home holding hands and feeling warm about each other. This leads to more affection in the bedroom.Relationship Advice For Men


----------



## the guy

@ES, its really hard to do this when there is a third party influencing the marriage.

Until this 3rd person no longer inffects the dynamics of the marriage the marrige is broken. So no contact with an affair partner is so important.

I guess in this case one needs to face the possiblity and investigate to see what exactly is influencing the break down of the marriage. Then take the steps to make such influences inconvienent and uncomfortable to continue,


----------



## Intact27

the guy said:


> @ES, its really hard to do this when there is a third party influencing the marriage.
> 
> Until this 3rd person no longer inffects the dynamics of the marriage the marrige is broken. So no contact with an affair partner is so important.
> 
> I guess in this case one needs to face the possiblity and investigate to see what exactly is influencing the break down of the marriage. Then take the steps to make such influences inconvienent and uncomfortable to continue,


The trouble is now we no longer live together it's impossible for me to find out if there is another man.

I thought for so long there wasn't but it seems to be the only thing that would join all of the dots.

Why else would a woman just leave a home, son and financial comfort and walkaway without trying?


----------



## Intact27

So I am doing a complete 180 on my wife...

She popped round today to drop of our son and she told me that she was going out with her friend tonight and her friends partner was taking her back to her mums house later so she could drink...

Strange thing about this is y wife hasn't drunk in 8 years as she says she hates the feeling of not being in control - why start drinking now?

I am worried about her - I don't think she looked great today at all...

Be interesting to see if my 180s make any difference. I'll be watching closely.


----------



## Intact27

So it seems people were right all along...

I heard yesterday that my wife had been hanging out with some guy who works opposite her - I questioned her about it and she said "I am spending time with him but only as a friend as he understands me and knows what I'm going through" blah blah blah...

An hour later my friend text me telling me he had just seen my wife in a shopping centre holding hands with this idiot.

She of course tells me they held hands but nothing elsenhasever happened. What a crock! 

All the dots finally join together...


----------



## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> So it seems people were right all along...
> 
> I heard yesterday that my wife had been hanging out with some guy who works opposite her - I questioned her about it and she said "I am spending time with him but only as a friend as he understands me and knows what I'm going through" blah blah blah...
> 
> An hour later my friend text me telling me he had just seen my wife in a shopping centre holding hands with this idiot.
> 
> She of course tells me they held hands but nothing elsenhasever happened. What a crock!
> 
> All the dots finally join together...


Sorry Intact.

Your wife is a liar among things now.

Take care of yourself.

I think her relationship with the OM has gone further.


----------



## Intact27

happyman64 said:


> Sorry Intact.
> 
> Your wife is a liar among things now.
> 
> Take care of yourself.
> 
> I think her relationship with the OM has gone further.


Oh I think so too. Her mum told me she never returned home Saturday night. I'm just fed up with her.

I love her so much, but you know what - I deserve better!

I hope this new relationship falls flat on its face and leaves her feeling an ounce of the hurt I feel right now.


----------



## anchorwatch

Well it was an OM all the time. Sorry Intact. Sorry you were played that way by by the person you thought you could trust. It was the trust that blinded you. 

Remember this.

If she couldn't be trusted, she's not worth your love.

The best revenge is living well.


----------



## OnTheRocks

So sorry, Intact. The truth hurts, but it will also help you let go. Expose her to her family and friends.


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> Well it was an OM all the time. Sorry Intact. Sorry you were played that way by by the person you thought you could trust. It was the trust that blinded you.
> 
> Remember this.
> 
> If she couldn't be trusted, she's not worth your love.
> 
> The best revenge is living well.


I absolutely agree with this, but of course it's hard because I love her, and I do feel very jealous at the moment...

Physically she looks drained - which actually made me feel a little better (I know that's bad) but I can't help it...

I wished upon everything that we could have reconciled - as much for our son - but I also felt we could if made each other happy.

Everything she says now is so final - so I just have to get on with my life and eventually hope a woman won't mind taking on a mid thirties single dad with an ex wife who lives around the corner - big ask I know.


----------



## Intact27

OnTheRocks said:


> So sorry, Intact. The truth hurts, but it will also help you let go. Expose her to her family and friends.


I already have done - made me feel a bit better but don't think it will achieve anything else.


----------



## Machiavelli

Intact27 said:


> So it seems people were right all along...
> 
> I heard yesterday that my wife had been hanging out with some guy who works opposite her - I questioned her about it and she said "I am spending time with him but only as a friend as he understands me and knows what I'm going through" blah blah blah...
> 
> An hour later my friend text me telling me he had just seen my wife in a shopping centre holding hands with this idiot.
> 
> She of course tells me they held hands but nothing elsenhasever happened. What a crock!
> 
> All the dots finally join together...


Now, _who_ could have possibly foreseen this development?

Viseris and Turnera called it pages ago.

This is why the first move you make when you get the ILYBINILWY is to conduct a _thorough _investigation of at least a couple of weeks. ILYBINILWY means affair 99.9% of the time.


----------



## Machiavelli

Intact27 said:


> She popped round today to drop of our son and she told me that she was going out with her friend tonight and her friends partner was taking her back to her mums house later so she could drink...
> 
> Strange thing about this is y wife hasn't drunk in 8 years as she says she hates the feeling of not being in control - why start drinking now?.


She needs a little buzz, because she's having her first threesome with toxic friend and her partner?



Intact27 said:


> =Her mum told me she never returned home Saturday night.


And there you have it.


----------



## OnTheRocks

Intact27 said:


> I already have done - made me feel a bit better but don't think it will achieve anything else.


It will let them know that she's a selfish coward, as opposed to the story they no doubt heard from her about how she is this brave woman that found the strength to leave her abusive husband.


----------



## Machiavelli

Intact,

You were given a lot of conflicting advice over the last 6 weeks, a lot of it was clearly wrong. Go back and look at some of the suggestions that were made about a reading list from Viseris and Turnera and you'll see a book called Married Man Sex Life Primer, which you declined to read. Buy it and read it. The author runs Blog | Married Man Sex Lifean excellent blog, read that, too. The current post there is titled "Wife Leaves, Husband Doesn't Cry Long."

Now that you're single again, you need to find out where you are on the Male Socio-Sexual Hierarchy.

Check your Sexual Market Value at this link.

Get your body into the proportions of The Golden Ratio. This shape triggers a sexual response in the woman's limbic system. Cut the grain products, quit beer, shun all sugar, and get a six pack.

And lastly, memorize The Sixteen Commandments.


Once you get your body together, you'll pull chicks. This is especially true since most English guys have underdeveloped upper bodies, due to too much football in the key formative years.

Now, when you start pulling chicks, it'll get back to your STBXW. This will, believe it or not, actually cause jealousy and second thoughts. Eventually, your wife is going to come out of her kinky sex fog (affair sex is always much kinkier than married sex), most likely when she shows up to pick up your son and sees the Swedish blonde twins that are staying over with you, and there is a slight possibility she will try to come back. "Over and done" women do this often enough that you need to think about your response in advance. Just think about all the lying and fooking in the storeroom at work and when she was at her "Mum's" place for months on end over the last year or two, before you even knew there was a problem.

My advice is to forget her and go establish your harem.


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

And you do deserve better Intact so follow Mach's advice.

Also, 38 is not old.


----------



## Intact27

I am getting myself in shape... The thing is - and people will think I'm mad for this - but I'd still very much like to "win" my Wife back.

Am doing the 180/last resort technique at the moment.


----------



## happyman64

The 180 is for you. Not to win her back. Improve yourself.


----------



## Intact27

happyman64 said:


> The 180 is for you. Not to win her back. Improve yourself.


I have improved myself - no doubt about that, but I also need to be honest with myself and admit that I would love to reconcile and bring our family back together.


----------



## happyman64

There is nothing wrong with still loving your wife and wanting to keep the family together.

Just realize that is not your wife's goals at all.

She is walking in the opposite direction.


----------



## Intact27

happyman64 said:


> There is nothing wrong with still loving your wife and wanting to keep the family together.
> 
> Just realize that is not your wife's goals at all.
> 
> She is walking in the opposite direction.


Yes I do understand that. I hope that if my changes are genuine and consistent - given enoug time she may pull a little closer too me.

Surely, deep down, no woman can be happy about splitting up their family and living with their parents?


----------



## anchorwatch

Intact27 said:


> Yes I do understand that. I hope that if my changes are genuine and consistent - given enoug time she may pull a little closer too me.
> 
> Surely, deep down, no woman can be happy about splitting up their family and living with their parents?


I don't see it that way. I think she is very happy. She has her parents and you to baby sit while she enjoys the single life and her new man's company. 

Intact, let me ask you, how often did you romance her and take her out on dates? Will she remember those times fondly. 

Stick to the 180. Do not dwell on her as much as you can. She did not allow you to change. She deceived you.


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> I don't see it that way. I think she is very happy. She has her parents and you to baby sit while she enjoys the single life and her new man's company.
> 
> Intact, let me ask you, how often did you romance her and take her out on dates? Will she remember those times fondly.
> 
> Stick to the 180. Do not dwell on her as much as you can. She did not allow you to change. She deceived you.


We didn't really go out on too many dates if I'm honest.

She did say to me the other night that she remembers the good times very fondly.

Te thing is she obviously has this new man now, but up until then her mum had told me that nights she didn't have our son, she would sit in her room and sob. My wife also told me that so many times she has been really close to knocking on the door and trying to work things out - when she said that I thought there is obviously something holding her back - the other man.


----------



## happyman64

:iagree:

She is not happy with you. How could you compare to OM?

You have kids.
You have bills to pay.
You have a wife.

I bet the OM has no responsibilities.

Your wife is not thinking if ou, the kids or her marriage right now.

Of that I can assure you.......


----------



## Intact27

happyman64 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> She is not happy with you. How could you compare to OM?
> 
> You have kids.
> You have bills to pay.
> You have a wife.
> 
> I bet the OM has no responsibilities.
> 
> Your wife is not thinking if ou, the kids or her marriage right now.
> 
> Of that I can assure you.......


I realise this, but the question is will she ever snap out of it?


----------



## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> I realise this, but the question is will she ever snap out of it?


That is the million dollar question. In time most do.

Some become remorseful, realize they made decisions and wnt to reconcile.

Some become so ashamed they continue to make bad decisions and spiral downward.

And some have strong spouses that "Let them Go" to find themselves or to address their own issues.

Maybe the wayward spouse gets a 2nd chance, maybe not.

You need to be strong. Not let her bad decisions drag you or the kids into her quicksand.

Make your intentions clear and let her know that her decisions have very clear and strong consequences.

Do not be a fool for her....


----------



## Intact27

She just popped round because she had forgot a box - I could tell she had been crying - this all seems so ridiculous.


----------



## anchorwatch

Tell her she needs to pack her things and move them out. 

That way she'll see another part of the reality she's creating. 

Don't let her have ties to your place.


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> Tell her she needs to pack her things and move them out.
> 
> That way she'll see another part of the reality she's creating.
> 
> Don't let her have ties to your place.


She doesn't now - she moved everything out today - just for got that one box.

Why on earth has she been crying though?


----------



## anchorwatch

It's the reality of what she's has done. 

She's got a guilty conscience.


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> It's the reality of what she's has done.
> 
> She's got a guilty conscience.


You think that's what it is? Surely if she felt that guilty she would be heading back, pleading for another chance?


----------



## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> You think that's what it is? Surely if she felt that guilty she would be heading back, pleading for another chance?


It very rarely happens that fast.

Have you told anyone what is really going on? About her "friend"?


----------



## anchorwatch

Intact27 said:


> You think that's what it is? Surely if she felt that guilty she would be heading back, pleading for another chance?


NO!!! 

She only feels she should have done it different. 

Not that she wants back.


----------



## Intact27

happyman64 said:


> It very rarely happens that fast.
> 
> Have you told anyone what is really going on? About her "friend"?


Yes I told her parents and most of her friends.


----------



## anchorwatch

You've been replaced. 

The OM is filling her emotional love tank now. 

She doesn't need that from you, as long as he can fill those needs.

She only needs you to parent her son.

Other than that, you are a reminder of a failed marriage.

Have you seen a solicitor?


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> You've been replaced.
> 
> The OM is filling her emotional love tank now.
> 
> She doesn't need that from you, as long as he can fill those needs.
> 
> She only need you to parent her son.
> 
> Other than that, you are a reminder of a failed marriage.


Yes I understand all this but I still feel she must miss being a family unit. We did everything together - the 3 of us.

Question is how do I replace te OM - or get her to end it with him?


----------



## anchorwatch

Expose, move her out, file for separation/divorce.

Was she exposed t work?

Continue the 180!

That's about it. 

Sorry we cross posted. Have you seen a solicitor?


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> Expose, move her out, file for separation/divorce.
> 
> Was she exposed t work?
> 
> Continue the 180!
> 
> That's about it.
> 
> Sorry we cross posted. Have you seen a solicitor?


I have seen a solicitor but at the moment things are ok as we have 50/50 custody and I have kept our rented house...

Don't know how to expose it at her work - but I'm sure she's already told them. I am doing my 180s but everything I have read says don't mention the divorce if you're trying to get your wife back.


----------



## anchorwatch

I agree. 

It's time to keep to the 180.


----------



## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> I agree.
> 
> It's time to keep to the 180.


I will do - unfortunately I really won't see much of her anymore so it will be very difficult for her to notice any changes.


----------



## Machiavelli

Part of what makes her not be attracted to you is that she thinks you aren't attractive to other women. Women take their attraction cues from other women. Didn't you ever notice when you were single how all the girls are always having to run off to the head together? They're comparing notes to decide which guys are hot and who is not. Once you get your body in shape and start getting major female attention, she'll decide she was wrong (at least momentarily). The best way to get an X back is to be in high demand with women in general. The thing is, it's very normal to be pulling younger, hotter women than your X. And therein lies the rub. Or the rub downs.


----------



## OnTheRocks

180 means you stop caring what she thinks.


----------



## turnera

Intact27 said:


> Question is how do I replace te OM - or get her to end it with him?


 By going out when she has the kids and having an AMAZING life. By posting that life all OVER FB and by telling all your friends how amazing your new life is. By telling her parents that the window is closing because you see that you DO have a great life ahead of you without her, IF she doesn't get her head out of her azz soon (parents' bugging her when they see you fading away can't hurt). By working out and getting fit and healthy. By getting a new wardrobe. By renovating the house to replace the stuff she took (or you never liked) so that if she sees it, she sees you literally moving on from her and her 'stamp' on this house gone.


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> By going out when she has the kids and having an AMAZING life. By posting that life all OVER FB and by telling all your friends how amazing your new life is. By telling her parents that the window is closing because you see that you DO have a great life ahead of you without her, IF she doesn't get her head out of her azz soon (parents' bugging her when they see you fading away can't hurt). By working out and getting fit and healthy. By getting a new wardrobe. By renovating the house to replace the stuff she took (or you never liked) so that if she sees it, she sees you literally moving on from her and her 'stamp' on this house gone.


Thing is I can do this - and I do intend on meeting women - but there's no way she would see it - she deleted her FB so how would she see that other women are interested in me - there is already 1 woman interested - who is younger than my wife.


----------



## OnTheRocks

Maybe that younger woman isn't a selfish, deceitful POS! Move on! Your STBXW clearly has!


----------



## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> Thing is I can do this - and I do intend on meeting women - but there's no way she would see it - she deleted her FB so how would she see that other women are interested in me - there is already 1 woman interested - who is younger than my wife.


Intact.

We will notice the changes on TAM. The younger woman if you decide to enhance that friendship will notice and benefit from your improvement.

You will notice the improvement.

And I will bet you drinks in the future that once she gets over her crappy behavior and compartmentalizes her guilt her FB will be back on......

HM64


----------



## Machiavelli

Intact27 said:


> Thing is I can do this - and I do intend on meeting women - but there's no way she would see it - she deleted her FB so how would she see that other women are interested in me - there is already 1 woman interested - who is younger than my wife.


She'll hear about it. And when she does, she'll wonder how in the hell you could possibly move on from her. She'll be pissed.


----------



## turnera

She'll hear about it. Trust us.


----------



## Intact27

Machiavelli said:


> She'll hear about it. And when she does, she'll wonder how in the hell you could possibly move on from her. She'll be pissed.


Well I've been asked if I'd be interested in drinks by a 24 year old - she's very sexy - so I may schedule a little date with her. At least I live in a very small village so gossip travels incredibly fast.


----------



## Machiavelli

Intact27 said:


> Well I've been asked if I'd be interested in drinks by a 24 year old - she's very sexy - so I may schedule a little date with her. At least* I live in a very small village* so gossip travels incredibly fast.


I figured as much. Get that V torso and it's just the beginning. Higher SMV for you means you can attract higher quality (however you may define that) and younger women. Time is on your side, time is working against your STBXWW.


----------



## Cubby

Machiavelli said:


> I figured as much. Get that V torso and it's just the beginning. Higher SMV for you means you can attract higher quality (however you may define that) and younger women. Time is on your side, time is working against your STBXWW.


His wife is 39. I'm picturing the kind of men she's going to attract. 

Now I'm picturing the 24 year old (and the many others in the early-20s to early 30s who he can date)

Advantage: Intact27.


----------



## Intact27

Cubby said:


> His wife is 39. I'm picturing the kind of men she's going to attract.
> 
> Now I'm picturing the 24 year old (and the many others in the early-20s to early 30s who he can date)
> 
> Advantage: Intact.


Unfortunately the other man seems to be tall, dark, handsome, rather wealthy and divorced.


----------



## Machiavelli

Intact27 said:


> Unfortunately the other man seems to be tall, dark, handsome, rather wealthy and divorced.


Why is that "unfortunately?" You really think he's going to be into her for the long haul with a high SMV? She's just another notch.


----------



## Viseral

Intact27 said:


> Unfortunately the other man seems to be tall, dark, handsome, rather wealthy and divorced.


And there you go. Female Hypergamy at work; aka women being hard-wired to be attracted to comparatively older more dominant men with resources.

Likewise, men are hard wired to be attracted to comparatively younger women with nice figures. 

Go get that 24 year-old hottie and even the playing field.


----------



## Intact27

Machiavelli said:


> Why is that "unfortunately?" You really think he's going to be into her for the long haul with a high SMV? She's just another notch.


This is a good point, however, I do have to say that my wife is pretty hot herself.


----------



## anchorwatch

Intact27 said:


> This is a good point, however, I do have to say that my wife is pretty hot herself.


Apparently the OM noticed. 

That's why you always need to keep that attraction going so her brain produces the chemicals of attraction toward you.

Love Chemical - Love Chemicals and Chemistry of Love

Now stop dwelling on her.


----------



## Bottled Up

Intact27, I'm sorry to read about the unfortunate discovery of your cheating wife. I also noticed a few pages ago you stated a desire to win her back, and I see you still talk rather respectively about her even now.

I need you to listen and listen good... 

Women invest themselves in relationships emotionally, it's how they are programmed by nature. A long course of time has taken place for your wife to essentially transition out of her life with you to throw herself into the arms and pants of another man. You can make all the changes you want via MMSL, but you need to give up on the idea that your stbxw is ever coming back or going to play a part in your future, especially as a result of your changes.

She is now both emotionally and physically attached to another man... there is no way you are going to win that battle against him at this point. The only chance of it happening is if he messes up himself and drives her away... but even at that point if she came running back, you are simply a rebound and not the primary target. You have been a factor of comfort and stability in her life in the past and that has familiarity and she will seek that stability if the waters get rough with OM. But there is no dignity for you in this situation if you were to take her back.

What you need to do is run the MAP, do MMSL, just for yourself, under the agreement with yourself that this is for you and you only, not for your cheating stbxw whom couldn't stay faithful to you on the first go of your relationship. This 24 year old girl checking you out? Damnit man, pick yourself up, pound your chest and say "I'm a hot man and I'm worth this" and then go git er' tiger.

I know there's so much history intertwined with your stbxw, and for that it's hard to let go and grieving is definitely understandable. But at the end of the day, do NOT let your grief turn back into beta weakness and vulnerability that would lead you to make a rash decision like winning your stbxw back, because that is the very decision that would put you right back at square one in all respects.

You are better than her, you deserve more, but only you can get up and brush the dust off and go get it. So get off this keyboard and go date this 24 year old... and any other women out there for that matter. You're a valuable commodity in the dating market for women, you just need to experience it to believe it. So GO! NOW!

Godspeed


----------



## Intact27

Bottled Up said:


> Intact27, I'm sorry to read about the unfortunate discovery of your cheating wife. I also noticed a few pages ago you stated a desire to win her back, and I see you still talk rather respectively about her even now.
> 
> I need you to listen and listen good...
> 
> Women invest themselves in relationships emotionally, it's how they are programmed by nature. A long course of time has taken place for your wife to essentially transition out of her life with you to throw herself into the arms and pants of another man. You can make all the changes you want via MMSL, but you need to give up on the idea that your stbxw is ever coming back or going to play a part in your future, especially as a result of your changes.
> 
> She is now both emotionally and physically attached to another man... there is no way you are going to win that battle against him at this point. The only chance of it happening is if he messes up himself and drives her away... but even at that point if she came running back, you are simply a rebound and not the primary target. You have been a factor of comfort and stability in her life in the past and that has familiarity and she will seek that stability if the waters get rough with OM. But there is no dignity for you in this situation if you were to take her back.
> 
> What you need to do is run the MAP, do MMSL, just for yourself, under the agreement with yourself that this is for you and you only, not for your cheating stbxw whom couldn't stay faithful to you on the first go of your relationship. This 24 year old girl checking you out? Damnit man, pick yourself up, pound your chest and say "I'm a hot man and I'm worth this" and then go git er' tiger.
> 
> I know there's so much history intertwined with your stbxw, and for that it's hard to let go and grieving is definitely understandable. But at the end of the day, do NOT let your grief turn back into beta weakness and vulnerability that would lead you to make a rash decision like winning your stbxw back, because that is the very decision that would put you right back at square one in all respects.
> 
> You are better than her, you deserve more, but only you can get up and brush the dust off and go get it. So get off this keyboard and go date this 24 year old... and any other women out there for that matter. You're a valuable commodity in the dating market for women, you just need to experience it to believe it. So GO! NOW!
> 
> Godspeed


Whilst I understand and agree with what you're saying its difficult because too me it's about more than my wife. Yes, I love her but I am desperate to pull my family back together.

There are cases where the wife returns - I understand that it's not likely but I can't give up all hope just yet.

There will be some now that call me a door mate - and that's fine but essentially I just want to give my son the best possible upbringing he can have - and in my opinion that means the both of us together.


----------



## turnera

More than half of ALL FAMILIES end up in two households, Intact. As much as you WANT what you're saying, you never WERE likely to get it, even when she was acting like a wife. Too many people take these things for granted and statistics show you were more likely to end up divorced than married.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> Whilst I understand and agree with what you're saying its difficult because too me it's about more than my wife. Yes, I love her but I am desperate to pull my family back together.
> 
> There are cases where the wife returns - I understand that it's not likely but I can't give up all hope just yet.
> 
> There will be some now that call me a door mate - and that's fine but essentially I just want to give my son the best possible upbringing he can have - and in my opinion that means the both of us together.


As long as you are desperate, you will fail. She will see that desperation and think even less of you.

No one likes a doormat. You ahve convinced yourself that because of your bad behavior before, you need to martyr yourself to keep the family intact. That is not healthy for you, for your children or your marriage. It is not what she wants, so stop doing it.

You can't control her, only yourself. So work on you and stop worrying about her.


----------



## curious2

Tall Average Guy said:


> *As long as you are desperate, you will fail. She will see that desperation and think even less of you.*
> No one likes a doormat. You ahve convinced yourself that because of your bad behavior before, you need to *martyr yourself to keep the family intact*. * That is not healthy for you, for your children or your marriage. It is not what she wants, so stop doing it.*
> *You can't control her, only yourself. So work on you and stop worrying about her.*


:iagree:
Give your children the gift of a happy, whole, self determined father who values himself. They will be much better off.


----------



## Bottled Up

Intact27 said:


> There will be some now that call me a door mate - and that's fine but essentially I just want to give my son the best possible upbringing he can have - and in my opinion that means the both of us together.


I'm a son of divorce, and guess what? I turned out just fine. Know why? Because I had at least 1 parent who dedicated her life to raising me right by teaching me morals, giving me support, and made sure I felt loved enough. You can provide this guidance for your son without living with a woman pretending to like you while she's off doinking other men.

That's really the life you want for yourself? What are you teaching you son in that situation anyway, that's it's okay to be a weak man who tolerates his wife going out and banging other dudes?

No, what's best for your son is teaching him to have some self-respect and dignity to stand up for himself when he is wronged like you have been. Trust me, he won't be young forever... he'll understand one day that you did the best you could for him, and he won't tolerate the same injustice upon himself.

Doing right for yourself IS doing best for your son. Think about it...


----------



## turnera

Bottled Up said:


> No, what's best for your son is teaching him to have some self-respect and dignity to stand up for himself when he is wronged like you have been. Trust me, he won't be young forever... he'll understand one day that you did the best you could for him, and he won't tolerate the same injustice upon himself.


That's assuming you don't STAY just for him and he realizes you ARE a doormat who expects no romantic love in his life and won't fight for better. Then, HE will become a doormat, because he will become whatever his (same sex) parent is.


----------



## Bottled Up

turnera said:


> That's assuming you don't STAY just for him and he realizes you ARE a doormat who expects no romantic love in his life and won't fight for better. Then, HE will become a doormat, because he will become whatever his (same sex) parent is.


Right, that's what I implied... Turnera just clarified it


----------



## Machiavelli

Intact27 said:


> Whilst I understand and agree with what you're saying its difficult because too me it's about more than my wife. Yes, I love her but I am desperate to pull my family back together.
> 
> There are cases where the wife returns - I understand that it's not likely but I can't give up all hope just yet.
> 
> There will be some now that call me a door mate - and that's fine but essentially *I just want to give my son the best possible upbringing he can have - and in my opinion that means the both of us together.*



Yes, no question that the odds are on the side of the kids from two parent, no divorce households. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like your wife is going to give your son that option. If you can go Alpha like crazy, cutting off all but the most essential and minimal contact with your wife while simultaneously squiring super models around town 3 nights a week, you might be able to pull off a reconciliation. About all you got at this point is the jealousy card, but it usually won't work decisively unless she gets dumped by the OM. That's likely to happen, but not guaranteed, but you have to be perceived as having moved on to your advantage (younger and hotter).

Did you learn anything from the links to the Chateau, Alpha Game Plan, or MMSL?


----------



## curious2

Machiavelli said:


> *Yes, no question that the odds are on the side of the kids from two parent, no divorce households. *Unfortunately, it doesn't look like your wife is going to give your son that option. If you can go Alpha like crazy, cutting off all but the most essential and minimal contact with your wife while simultaneously squiring super models around town 3 nights a week, you might be able to pull off a reconciliation. About all you got at this point is the jealousy card, but it usually won't work decisively unless she gets dumped by the OM. That's likely to happen, but not guaranteed, but you have to be perceived as having moved on to your advantage (younger and hotter).
> 
> Did you learn anything from the links to the Chateau, Alpha Game Plan, or MMSL?


Not when all they see is dysfunction. You do not do your children a service when you withstand it for their sake. More harm then good. They are not deaf, dumb or blind. You are the model for what they will expect and tolerate in their own lives and how they will behave.

Do you really want to perform circus acts for her to want you again? Is that what you want? Will it mean anything if she does come back? Definately work on you but for you not for her.

What this is really about is your refusal to let her go and move on. It is hard and your pain is evident . I'm sorry you are going through this.


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## dgtal

Post that POSOM in cheaterville.com
You dont have the minimal idea who this POS predator home wrecker is. Expose his as$ . She is still your wife. Fight. Bark hard! and laud. Expose to his work place. You should it start your postings in CWI
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dgtal

This is me said:


> This is a Mid Life Crisis. Been through this. It is devastating to the unknowning spouse. Heed my words....Do everything to mitigate the damage, for this will very likely pass.
> 
> Do not crumble. Learn the 180 and be as strong as you can, mostly for yourself and your child. Patience is the key. Be steadfast and solid, knowing that she may need space and time to get through all of this.
> 
> The fact she will do MC is good. You should both do IC also, if possible. It is money well spent if you choose the right Counselors. Make sure you both agree on the MC. Neither one should be going to a MC if they are uncomfortable or sense the C is not pro-marriage. Counselors bring their own history and pain into the room, so ask good questions.
> 
> Read "Divorce Remedy or Dovorce Busters". They were very helpful to me.
> 
> I wish you well!


You were warned from the beginning. And yes this is typical, a women in MLC. I'm going thru the same with my wife of 33 years. After receiving the ILYBINILWY script I discovered not only one but 2 OM's.

In your case she's probably dating more than one OM, who knows. That's a major problem with MLC. They become hungry for attention, not from you but from other men. You can treat her like a queen but yet it is not enough. The only thing that worked for me was to confront the OM's. Both of them played dumb when I stand in front of them to tell them they were busted. One (a married man) told me he didn't knew my wife. Next day I knocked his door and handled the evidences to his wife along with a message to tell his parasite husband to stay away from my wife or consequences would be serious.

The OM#2 (a divorced man) almost sh!t his pants when I pointed my .45 beretta right in his forehead and told him to back off. He was already starting to tell me he didn't know who my W was, BS. I told him I had a cure for amnesia. He walked away and never called my wife again. The OM#1 is in MC with his wife. 

I became an expert throwing monkey wrenches. 

Look, I don't know if you want to save your M. Women in MLC are SCARED of what they are doing. They feel something is wrong with them but they don't realize it. Do never ever mention to them they are going thru MLC. They won't accept this "diagnostic" from their husband. It will backfire on you.

After 4.5 years of this mess we are still married. People say you can not control her, but yet you can "mediate" her behavior by not tolerating inappropriate relationship with whoever they meet at the street (one sign of MLC: talk to strangers).

Women in MLC become an easy prey for predators.

What I'm doing right? I don't know. Maybe surfing the waves with her anti-aging crisis (there is nothing wrong by spending hours in front of a mirror trying to erase the marks of aging). But spending time and money in cosmetics (creams, surgeries, treatments, etc) to look good to other men (and sometime other women too) is not admissible.

I will spend the rest of my life with her because I love her. It won't matter to see her signing the joint income tax papers with a different signature every year (<--another sign of MLC, identity disorientation)

Don't do the 180 if you still want to R.

You will feel comfortable after losing the FEAR of divorce. It will take years. But stay married.

Good luck


----------



## Intact27

The saga continues... I've been sticking pretty well to my 180s - a few slip ups but nothing drastic...

My wife phoned me today - for the first time since she left - she phoned to tell me that she was going out with a group of new friends tonight - one of which was the man she was spotted holding hands with - she wanted me to know as it only seemed fair as she didn't want me receiving a text off someone like last time...

I asked her if she was dating this man, she said no we are just friends - I then asked her if she was going to date this man "I don't know yet" she replied OUCH

All of this just seems so cruel.


----------



## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> The saga continues... I've been sticking pretty well to my 180s - a few slip ups but nothing drastic...
> 
> My wife phoned me today - for the first time since she left - she phoned to tell me that she was going out with a group of new friends tonight - one of which was the man she was spotted holding hands with - she wanted me to know as it only seemed fair as she didn't want me receiving a text off someone like last time...
> 
> I asked her if she was dating this man, she said no we are just friends - I then asked her if she was going to date this man "I don't know yet" she replied OUCH
> 
> All of this just seems so cruel.


Isn't it amazing when you wife, dating and OM in the same sentence Intact.

And just so you know, she s lying to you. They are already dating.......

Time to change it up my man.

And stop talking to her. Go on a date yourself. Even if it is just with friends.


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## Intact27

happyman64 said:


> Isn't it amazing when you wife, dating and OM in the same sentence Intact.
> 
> And just so you know, she s lying to you. They are already dating.......
> 
> Time to change it up my man.
> 
> And stop talking to her. Go on a date yourself. Even if it is just with friends.


Oh I knw they're already dating, and I very much believe that there s already a physical relationship.

Thing is I've been following the 180 divorce busting guide and everything you read there says the left behind spouse should. Not date. That sucks I knw but believe it or not I would still love to reconcile with my wife.


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## happyman64

I understand your desire to R. And go on a date with friends. She does not need to know who you went with.

One more peace of advice.

Tell her you desire no more contact from her because you cannot stand her lies.

That is how you 180 her.

Then go dark.

There are better women out there so keep your mind and options open.


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## Shadow_Nirvana

Intact27, life is cruel. Stop throwing yourself a pity party and start doing whatever you need to do to survive in this cruel world.


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## turnera

Call up some friends and hit a few bars tonight, and buy a few girls some drinks.


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## happyman64

:iagree:

Turnera is right. Go ut and get hit on. Start rebuilding your self esteem.

Your marriage is on hold and you did not get a say in it.

And it would not hurt to Get your mind off of things.


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## Bottled Up

Intact27 said:


> I then asked her if she was going to date this man "I don't know yet" she replied


This is a clear signal she is sending you that she doesn't want you anymore.



Intact27 said:


> Oh I knw they're already dating, and I very much believe that there s already a physical relationship.


You are correct, and this means she has completely moved on from you already. Time to start gathering your self-respect and do the same for yourself... move on from her.



Intact27 said:


> Thing is I've been following the 180 divorce busting guide and everything you read there says the left behind spouse should.


The reason why the 180 isn't working for you is because your wife doesn't care enough about you anymore for the 180 to even have an effect on her. She is already removed from you, so in essence all you're doing is actually making life easier on her to go on escapades with OM because you're actually removing yourself from their secret lives with each other. Before you were an obstacle to them... but with the 180 you are now a non-factor altogether becasue interference from you is of absolutely no concern.



Intact27 said:


> That sucks I knw but believe it or not I would still love to reconcile with my wife.


And this right here is at the core of your every problem with your wife. Your willingness to take back a woman who mistreats you actually communicates to her that you condone her mistreating you. It shows a lack of self-respect and dependency on her, and that is exactly what turns her off... your weakness.


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## Intact27

I have to say here (say what you like about me) but I very much want to "win" my Wife back. I see the strain this puts on our Son and honestly I miss her more than I ever imagined...

I realise I am fighting for this alone, but if nothing else, at least I will be able to look back and reassure myself I did everything I possibly could.

It's difficult at the moment, because of whatever reason she doesn't seem to want to see me at all. I feel like I have lost my very best friend...

I am sticking to my 180s - I look better than I have in years - I am learning to play the guitar, I am getting out with friends and I have become a truly great Dad. Will she notice? I don't know? Will she care? I have no idea...

I am also not making contact with my Wife - I wait for her to contact and then I do not answer straight away. I am making myself unavailable to her...

If (and this is a massive IF) we ever reconciled (I pray we do) I will deal with the infidelity with her then...

I often wonder if she feels guilty about what she has done to our son - I wonder if, like me, she misses us being a family unit...


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## turnera

Sometimes it takes a cheater or a WAW a LONG time to see what the truth really is. I'm talking years. That's why you HAVE to move forward and make a good life for you without her. That way, if she does get her head out of her azz, YOU will have the upper hand if she hints at reconciliation. I've seen many people R after divorce, even. Your job is to make yourself as happy and in control as you can, for you and for your son.


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## Intact27

turnera said:


> Sometimes it takes a cheater or a WAW a LONG time to see what the truth really is. I'm talking years. That's why you HAVE to move forward and make a good life for you without her. That way, if she does get her head out of her azz, YOU will have the upper hand if she hints at reconciliation. I've seen many people R after divorce, even. Your job is to make yourself as happy and in control as you can, for you and for your son.


I agree with you and know you're right.

I am creating the best life I can for me and my son.

I have taken up a lot of new interests, I'm really building my business up and I'm in great shape. These are things I am doing for myself but of course I would very much also like it to have an effect on my R with wife.


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## turnera

You have to stop thinking about how what you do affects her.


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## Intact27

My wife phoned earlier and told me she has filed for divorce - I'm devastated and this all seems to have happened so quickly.


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## turnera

Stay strong. You knew it was coming. Focus on you and your family.


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## Intact27

turnera said:


> Stay strong. You knew it was coming. Focus on you and your family.


Thank you I will do but it was just like another bomb. I don't understand the rush of it all... Also it is yet something else that will upset our son even further.


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## turnera

She's in a hurry to make it 'legal' with her OM. So she can pretend she met him AFTER she filed. So she's got less shame.


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## Intact27

turnera said:


> She's in a hurry to make it 'legal' with her OM. So she can pretend she met him AFTER she filed. So she's got less shame.


Yes this did cross my mind. She popped round to talk about it and I got all of the usual rubbish "only way forward, I don't love you, can't be with you" etc etc.

But she was crying. As she left she hugged me and said "I'm so sorry this is the only way forward".


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## turnera

"I'm so sorry you turned out to be capable of cheating."


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## happyman64

Intact

Focus on you. Focus on your boy.

Your wife is past history by her choice.

In a year you will be thanking her.

Because she has allowed you to get away from her infidelity.

And once you are healed you will be free to find a real woman that loves you more than herself.

*Because your wife is only thinking of herself.*

HM64


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## Viseral

Intact, what are you doing to protect yourself financially? I hope you've separated accounts and have cut her off financially? 

You're wife cheated on you and left you and your son for another man. Don't fund your wife's affair. 

With the legal system in the UK, she will be granted primary custody of the child and will impoverish you with child support and alimony payments.

Don't be fooled. The legal system doesn't care about you. Take action to protect yourself now.


----------



## Intact27

Viseral said:


> Intact, what are you doing to protect yourself financially? I hope you've separated accounts and have cut her off financially?
> 
> You're wife cheated on you and left you and your son for another man. Don't fund your wife's affair.
> 
> With the legal system in the UK, she will be granted primary custody of the child and will impoverish you with child support and alimony payments.
> 
> Don't be fooled. The legal system doesn't care about you. Take action to protect yourself now.


I'm pretty secure in this regards. I have the family home, our son stays with me 4 nights per week and all child tax benefit etc is registered to my name. I have also spoken to a lawyer who is filing a residency order for me, which just means she can't take our son away without written consent from me.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> Yes this did cross my mind. She popped round to talk about it and I got all of the usual rubbish "only way forward, I don't love you, can't be with you" etc etc.
> 
> But she was crying. As she left she hugged me and said "I'm so sorry this is the only way forward".


You really need to stop this. Distance means keeping your distance physically and emotionally. No hugs, hand shakes, or touches. 

I also suggest stop letting her lie to you. When she starts spinning her stories, hold up your hand, and tell her that if she can't be decent enough to tell you the truth, she should not speak at all.

The woman you thought you knew no longer exists (assuming she ever did). She may come back, but until then, you cannot act like she is still around. You have to accept this. Your pain comes from continually be surprised at this, even though she is being very consistent right now.


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## turnera

Agreed. The only way she can possibly stop being a habitual liar in this regard is to get called out on it. What have you got to lose? Nothing. What have you got to gain? A lot.


----------



## Machiavelli

turnera said:


> Call up some friends and hit a few bars tonight, and buy a few girls some drinks.


No. Have the girls buy YOU drinks.


----------



## Machiavelli

Intact, 
Expose and start dating. I'm a broken record, but it's a fact: the best way to get them back (and to keep them, for that matter) is to demonstrate high sex value for other women. Be the village Casanova.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

> You really need to stop this. Distance means keeping your distance physically and emotionally. No hugs, hand shakes, or touches.


I wanted to follow up a bit to explain why I gave this advice. In a sense, your interactions with her are like a drug. You get that high when you talk or touch her, even when it is painful like this. Turning that off will help you think clearly and start healing. But every time you go back to her, you take steps back. In a sense, your NC with her is similar to a NC that you would want your wife to have with the OM - a time to detox so she can get out of the fog. You doing the same lets you get out of the fog about what your wife truly is right now (as opposed to what you think she is).


----------



## Intact27

Tall Average Guy said:


> I wanted to follow up a bit to explain why I gave this advice. In a sense, your interactions with her are like a drug. You get that high when you talk or touch her, even when it is painful like this. Turning that off will help you think clearly and start healing. But every time you go back to her, you take steps back. In a sense, your NC with her is similar to a NC that you would want your wife to have with the OM - a time to detox so she can get out of the fog. You doing the same lets you get out of the fog about what your wife truly is right now (as opposed to what you think she is).


Thanks for this - it all makes sense - I am now distancing myself from her.

Can you explain what 'NC' is please?


----------



## anchorwatch

NC = No Contact

The idea is to only have contact about important child and legal issues and end it. No personal banter. Avoid her calls, text, and presence. Make it so she should have no reason to pop by your home.


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## Intact27

Thanks for clearing this up. Its essentially what I have been doing the last few days (with the exception of the day she dropped the Divorce bomb).

I had to go round last night to see our Son, so I made sure I had all my new clothes on, new cologne etc. We barely spoke but she did tell me to "have a nice night" when I left. I just replied with "will do".


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> Thanks for clearing this up. Its essentially what I have been doing the last few days (with the exception of the day she dropped the Divorce bomb).
> 
> I had to go round last night to see our Son, so I made sure I had all my new clothes on, new cologne etc. We barely spoke but she did tell me to "have a nice night" when I left. I just replied with "will do".


Well done. I understand it is difficult, and I don't want to trivialize how hard it is for you. But keep it up. It will get better.


----------



## bizzy79

I think you are doing very well Intact TBH. Although you are (naturally) missing her, and you still hope that she will return, the fact that you are taking the advice you have received on here is great- so many people would wallow in self pity in this situation.

Just wanted to say "well done"


----------



## Intact27

Tall Average Guy said:


> Well done. I understand it is difficult, and I don't want to trivialize how hard it is for you. But keep it up. It will get better.


Thank you, I do appreciate your advice...

Saw W tonight as she came to pick up the laptop - the only thing on her mind is divorce - she just wants it done ASAP - even if that means I file against her for unreasonable behaviour.


----------



## Intact27

bizzy79 said:


> I think you are doing very well Intact TBH. Although you are (naturally) missing her, and you still hope that she will return, the fact that you are taking the advice you have received on here is great- so many people would wallow in self pity in this situation.
> 
> Just wanted to say "well done"


Thank you I really appreciate this, but I have to admit there has been a lot of self pity. I miss my wife and family dreadfully and it's. a battle every single day.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> Thank you, I do appreciate your advice...
> 
> Saw W tonight as she came to pick up the laptop - the only thing on her mind is divorce - she just wants it done ASAP - even if that means I file against her for unreasonable behaviour.


Consider giving her what she wants. You deserve better than to be treated like this, so move forward with moving on. You can also take advantage of her haste to end things by getting a better custody arrangement. Use that to your advantage.

Yes, it is sad, but you can't change her, so don't try.


----------



## turnera

Ask for the moon while she's in a hurry to get out. Trust me. It won't last.


----------



## dallasapple

turnera said:


> Ask for the moon while she's in a hurry to get out. Trust me. It won't last.


Cheating (is what it would be be) before divorce wont help you.Running around with other women no matter how great a revenge won't prove anything but she is right.Do not listen to anyone that suggest you run around with other women weeks after your wife left .Its disturbing..


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> Ask for the moon while she's in a hurry to get out. Trust me. It won't last.


I agree and I will but what I don't understand is why such a rush to get a divorce etc? It's like she's steam rolling through everything with little regard to the effect it will have on our Son.


----------



## turnera

Cheaters can't think about anyone else. It's part of the process.


----------



## Intact27

turnera said:


> Cheaters can't think about anyone else. It's part of the process.


Oh I get that, and she has thought of nobody but herself since this all came out in December, however, I still don't really understand why there is a rush to divorce - even if she is completely done.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> Oh I get that, and she has thought of nobody but herself since this all came out in December, however, I still don't really understand why there is a rush to divorce - even if she is completely done.


Why not? If you are divorcing, why do you want to draw things out? Why delay?


----------



## Intact27

Tall Average Guy said:


> Why not? If you are divorcing, why do you want to draw things out? Why delay?


From my point of view or hers?

For one reason, our Son hasn't taken any of this very well - telling him we are now divorced is the last thing he needs to hear - it will just confuse him further?

From my point of view? Although I am ready and willing to move on with my life, I don't feel I can close the door completely on reconciling with my Wife.


----------



## dallasapple

Tall Average Guy said:


> Why not? If you are divorcing, why do you want to draw things out? Why delay?


I agree..she isn't fighting for custody ..doesn't sound like much property to divide.

And this is what she wants.You cant make her not want this Intact.Having said that reconscliation after divorce is possible.I know divorced and remarried people.Sounds ridiculous but it happens.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> From my point of view or hers?
> 
> For one reason, our Son hasn't taken any of this very well - telling him we are now divorced is the last thing he needs to hear - it will just confuse him further?
> 
> From my point of view? Although I am ready and willing to move on with my life, I don't feel I can close the door completely on reconciling with my Wife.


Divorce doesn't "close the door" if you and SHE both want to remarry"..Divorce doesn't mean "can never marry again".(to the same person)

And for your son ((((HUGS))) long drawn out wont help him either..He's just plain stuck in the cross fire .Dragging it out will not benefit him..Y'all both being good available parents is what will help him..


----------



## dallasapple

Not to get your hopes up..but I'm a "supposed Christian " LOL!!Anyway my husbands mentor had a lover..he divorced his wife..(of like 20 years) moved to another state..All of it..It was a couple of years..He realized "uh oh" (for lack of better terms).Asked his wife to take him back.She did.they remarried and had been married for the second timeI think another 20 years..LOL!!

My aunt and uncle? Now they take the cake..Married young for about five years ..divorced..still hooking up though ..she gets pregnant..they REMARRY ..and are married for 35 years and guess what ? Get a SECOND divorce!!!

I like my first story better..


----------



## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> Not to get your hopes up..but I'm a "supposed Christian " LOL!!Anyway my husbands mentor had a lover..he divorced his wife..(of like 20 years) moved to another state..All of it..It was a couple of years..He realized "uh oh" (for lack of better terms).Asked his wife to take him back.She did.they remarried and had been married for the second timeI think another 20 years..LOL!!
> 
> My aunt and uncle? Now they take the cake..Married young for about five years ..divorced..still hooking up though ..she gets pregnant..they REMARRY ..and are married for 35 years and guess what ? Get a SECOND divorce!!!
> 
> I like my first story better..


I like the first story best too 

The truth is - I will move on - I have to but a small part of me will always cling onto hope.

I miss my family more than I miss my Wife (if that makes any sense). Sure it will get easier, but my happiest memories in the last decade have all involved the 3 of us together.


----------



## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> I like the first story best too
> 
> The truth is - I will move on - I have to but a small part of me will always cling onto hope.
> 
> I miss my family more than I miss my Wife (if that makes any sense). Sure it will get easier, but my happiest memories in the last decade have all involved the 3 of us together.


((((HUGS)))))

I understand..Your wife is your family..

Sigh..my pray is for ya'll to be reunited .


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## dallasapple

Also just for the record? How much respect and love you have for your wife? Shows to me? What a wonderful father you must be.Your son is blessed.You have handled your self with dignity and concern for your wife and child even if some say she didn't deserve it.You have been human honest and transparent.I'm a stranger on the internet but if it matters I'm impressed with your resolve dedication and professed love for your family and even those seemingly undeserving.


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## Quantmflux

Intact27 said:


> I like the first story best too
> 
> The truth is - I will move on - I have to but a small part of me will always cling onto hope.
> 
> I miss my family more than I miss my Wife (if that makes any sense). Sure it will get easier, but my happiest memories in the last decade have all involved the 3 of us together.


Absolutely nothing wrong with what you're saying here. People *do* survive infidelity and reconcile even when divorce has happened despite what many would want you to believe.

That said, as people have pointed out, *both* parties have to be open to it. For you, that first ship sailed. Your wife is definite in her decision. Maybe that will change, maybe not. Either way you *do* have to deal with the reality of divorce. And you need to deal with it *right now*

That reality, sorry to say, is not place for feelings and emotion. You have to compartmentalize that. Divorce is a legal proceeding and you have to treat it as such. Watch an episode of "Suits" 

Ever watch "Judge Judy"? Dont be the trainwreck that comes to court a mess, keeps interrupting and gets their cased dismissed before they can even lay it out.

You need to be cold and methodical in your approach to the logistics and legal complexities of the divorce. It sucks, but you have to start playing chess.

Your wife wants out. The OM has means (or the illusion of means). Right now she feels safe.

You *need* to use that to push through a fast settlement that *her* lawyer hates and *yours* loves.

BEST case scenario you are remarried to each other in 3 years and none of it matters.

WORST case scenario though you don't want to find your life SHREDDED by a brutal divorce settlement on top of all of the other BS you went through.


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## turnera

Intact27 said:


> Oh I get that, and she has thought of nobody but herself since this all came out in December, however, I still don't really understand why there is a rush to divorce - even if she is completely done.


Why would she want to be in the vicinity of a man she's decided is anathema? Get him out of her life!


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## Tall Average Guy

dallasapple said:


> Divorce doesn't "close the door" if you and SHE both want to remarry"..Divorce doesn't mean "can never marry again".(to the same person)
> 
> And for your son ((((HUGS))) long drawn out wont help him either..He's just plain stuck in the cross fire .Dragging it out will not benefit him..Y'all both being good available parents is what will help him..


Exactly. You can always get remarried. But move forward like you deserve a good life. Use her rush to get married to your advantage by getting a good financial andcustodial settlement. 

Also, I can almost guarantee that you are making it clear to her that you are willing to take her back. Imagine the image you are projecting right now - you are so desparate that you will overlook her cheating and lying because you don't deserve any better. Not exactly an appealing portrait.

So create a more appealing package. Start exercising. Spruce up your wardrobe. Go out with your friends and do some things you may have stopped doing. It is good for your mental health to get away from all this crap, even for a couple hours. Get back to the fun guy you were - not for her, but for you.


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## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> Also just for the record? How much respect and love you have for your wife? Shows to me? What a wonderful father you must be.Your son is blessed.You have handled your self with dignity and concern for your wife and child even if some say she didn't deserve it.You have been human honest and transparent.I'm a stranger on the internet but if it matters I'm impressed with your resolve dedication and professed love for your family and even those seemingly undeserving.


Thank you - this comment really means a lot too me.

I have to examine myself in all of this, and the truth is whilst I've always been a great Dad, Ive not been a great Husband - because I just let things coast along. This doesn't excuse her recent behaviour at all - but I have to admit to myself, and acknowledge that I am partially to blame for the failure of my marriage.

I will move on, but as stated, I will never lose hope because whatever is going on now - I love her dearly, and I honestly believe if given the opportunity we could be happy together.


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## Machiavelli

Intact27 said:


> Oh I get that, and she has thought of nobody but herself since this all came out in December, however, I still don't really understand why there is a rush to divorce - even if she is completely done.


Basically, it's a combination of her out of control desire to have kinky sex with others and "toxic shame" for having kinky sex with others. It doesn't matter if OM#1 is out of the picture or not, once somebody goes down this road, it's hard to stop due to that feedback loop.


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## Intact27

Bit of an update...

Arranged to meet my Wife yesterday to discuss some problems our Son is having with the set up.

She told me that she does have feelings for this other man but nothing's happened yet (obviously don't believe this)

She said at the moment she is heavily conflicted with working on our marriage or not. She says if she came back it would only be because of our Son as she doesn't have any feelings for me...

She also stated that she is desperate to have any feelings of love or hope that would make her want to work on our marriage with me. She said she can not simply come back for the sake of our son.

She did tell me she was thinking of things and would keep communication open - but she also warned me to not get my hopes up... She was very sad through out and hugged me as she left.


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## happyman64

Intact27 said:


> Bit of an update...
> 
> Arranged to meet my Wife yesterday to discuss some problems our Son is having with the set up.
> 
> She told me that she does have feelings for this other man but nothing's happened yet (obviously don't believe this)
> 
> She said at the moment she is heavily conflicted with working on our marriage or not. She says if she came back it would only be because of our Son as she doesn't have any feelings for me...
> 
> She also stated that she is desperate to have any feelings of love or hope that would make her want to work on our marriage with me. She said she can not simply come back for the sake of our son.
> 
> She did tell me she was thinking of things and would keep communication open - but she also warned me to not get my hopes up... She was very sad through out and hugged me as she left.


Intact your wife is lying to you.

As long as the OM is in the picture she will not have any feelings for you.

That shows she has no desire to work on the marriage.

You know what you have to do.

Why? Because you deserve better.

So go find better.

HM64


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## anchorwatch

Intact27, 

She is lying. 

How do you know? Only believe what she does. 

What does she do? She goes with the OM.

While she worked with the OM. They became a couple. You were too late to realize that. 

She kept it from you until OM look like a viable option for her. Even now she keeps you on the emotional hook to fall back on if the bad boy doesn't work out. Do you want that kind of person?

I'm sorry, you have misjudged her character. She will be a poor role model for your son. You must show you son that this is not how people treat one another, by example. Cut her out of your life.


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## Tall Average Guy

Intact27 said:


> Bit of an update...
> 
> Arranged to meet my Wife yesterday to discuss some problems our Son is having with the set up.
> 
> She told me that she does have feelings for this other man but nothing's happened yet (obviously don't believe this)


I agree on the lying. One thing you should do is that when she starts in on this, hold you hand up and tell her you deserve enough respect for her not to lie about this, so you rather she just not say anything.



> She said at the moment she is heavily conflicted with working on our marriage or not. She says if she came back it would only be because of our Son as she doesn't have any feelings for me...
> 
> She also stated that she is desperate to have any feelings of love or hope that would make her want to work on our marriage with me. She said she can not simply come back for the sake of our son.
> 
> She did tell me she was thinking of things and would keep communication open - but she also warned me to not get my hopes up... She was very sad through out and hugged me as she left.


Stop hugging (Go back to my earlier post on why you need to stop that). She is manipulating you (even if unintentionally) so that she can feel good about all this. She is probably hoping you can be friends, that way she still gets to keep part of you while she has the OM. She knows what she is doing to your family and trying to get you to be okay with it. Don't let her. She is causing pain and needs to know that. She absolutely needs to know what she is losing. 

I would say that you don't want her back if it is only for your son. You are willing to work on the marriage, but since she is involved with the other man, you need to move forward with the divorce.


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## Intact27

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree on the lying. One thing you should do is that when she starts in on this, hold you hand up and tell her you deserve enough respect for her not to lie about this, so you rather she just not say anything.
> 
> 
> 
> Stop hugging (Go back to my earlier post on why you need to stop that). She is manipulating you (even if unintentionally) so that she can feel good about all this. She is probably hoping you can be friends, that way she still gets to keep part of you while she has the OM. She knows what she is doing to your family and trying to get you to be okay with it. Don't let her. She is causing pain and needs to know that. She absolutely needs to know what she is losing.
> 
> I would say that you don't want her back if it is only for your son. You are willing to work on the marriage, but since she is involved with the other man, you need to move forward with the divorce.


I did actually tell her yesterday that if she is not prepared to work on our marriage then I am not prepared to be her friend. I told her I will no longer care, worry or love her. That she will be eliminated out of my life. Actually it seemed to take her back a little bit.


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## anchorwatch

Have you told her you don't believe the her story about the OM? 

That she has been deceitful?

Or do you?


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## Intact27

No I told her I didn't believe it. She just told me "I do have feelings for him, but nothings happened, if I loved you I wouldn't have feelings for anyone else"

Typical affair spiel to be honest.


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## anchorwatch

Intact27 said:


> No I told her I didn't believe it. She just told me "I do have feelings for him, but nothings happened, if I loved you I wouldn't have feelings for anyone else"
> 
> *She's lying, plenty has happened. Adults that have those feelings have sex.*
> 
> Typical affair spiel to be honest.
> 
> *Absolutely correct!!!*


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## Intact27

Update

Still no movement regarding our marriage, my wife continues to tell me it's over etc etc.

Unfortunately I had news yesterday that my dad only has days to live. I'm very upset as we are very close - and to make matters worse the only person I want to comfort me, is the person who is no longer in my life - my wife.


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## turnera

I'm so sorry.


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## anchorwatch

Intact27 said:


> Update
> 
> Still no movement regarding our marriage, my wife continues to tell me it's over etc etc.
> 
> Unfortunately I had news yesterday that my dad only has days to live. I'm very upset as we are very close - and to make matters worse the only person I want to comfort me, is the person who is no longer in my life - my wife.


Sorry to hear about your Dad, Intact. I know how hard that is. Hope you can spend what time he has left with him. Prayers to you and your family.

As far as your STBX, these are the times when the selfishness of what she has done is magnified.


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## Intact27

anchorwatch said:


> Sorry to hear about your Dad, Intact. I know hard that is. Hope you can spend what time he has left with him. Prayers to you and your family.
> 
> As far as your STBX, these are the times when the selfishness of what she has done is magnified.


You're right it is magnified.

She was very close to my dad, I told her the news via text but she doesn't seem to care. S either she really doesn't care or she is the worlds greatest actress.


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## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Update
> 
> Still no movement regarding our marriage, my wife continues to tell me it's over etc etc.
> 
> Unfortunately I had news yesterday that my dad only has days to live. I'm very upset as we are very close - and to make matters worse the only person I want to comfort me, is the person who is no longer in my life - my wife.



((((HUGS))))

Im so sorry about your dad..I know that doesn't help but I am anyway.

MY prayers with you and your family.


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## Intact27

Unfortunately my Dad passed away in the early hours of this morning. The last thing he said to me was how important family is and I should never give up on mine.

In about 2 hours time my wife I are going to tell our son. I'm so emotional. The only person I want by my side to help me through this is my Wife but she told me yesterday before he died "I know I've made the right decision because your dad is dying and it's not made me want to come back and it's not made me care about you" such hurtful comments.


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## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Unfortunately my Dad passed away in the early hours of this morning. The last thing he said to me was how important family is and I should never give up on mine.
> 
> In about 2 hours time my wife I are going to tell our son. I'm so emotional. The only person I want by my side to help me through this is my Wife but she told me yesterday before he died "I know I've made the right decision because your dad is dying and it's not made me want to come back and it's not made me care about you" such hurtful comments.


Oh man Intact I'm so sorry..(((CRYING))).

At this point I would like to call your wife a mean evil name for her callousness but I will refrain as I don't think it would help.

For what its worth I care about you and what you are going through and your little boy as much as a internet friend can.

My thoughts and prayers with you .(((((HUGS)))))


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## Intact27

dallasapple said:


> Oh man Intact I'm so sorry..(((CRYING))).
> 
> At this point I would like to call your wife a mean evil name for her callousness but I will refrain as I don't think it would help.
> 
> For what its worth I care about you and what you are going through and your little boy as much as a internet friend can.
> 
> My thoughts and prayers with you .(((((HUGS)))))


Tank you Dallas - that means a lot.


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## dallasapple

intact27 said:


> tank you dallas - that means a lot.



((((hugs)))))


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## turnera

I'm so sorry.


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## dallasapple

One more thing too.I would LOVE to get a chance to speak to your wife.It would be for ME though because I doubt she would "hear me" but I could get it off my chest.I only got "your side of the story" but your side of the story revealed to me ?Honest and raw feelings and I think she is a fool..You have a heart of repentance and devotion no matter what she has to forgive and you IMHO are more "worthy" of not being "dumped" which is what she did.I think she is a damn fool and that's not even including what your son goes through.Maybe I'm "off" but I "read" your love for her and your humbleness and that's "worth more" than gold .

Sorry if thats too gushy just want you to know I'm not on a witch hunt after her and I know you cant just "replace" her so easily because I see "hear" that you truly love her..I wish she could "see" that too..


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## happyman64

Intact

Very sorry about your Dad.

Focus on the family during this Imelda of mourning and deal with your wife later.

HM64


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## OnTheRocks

Very sorry for your loss. Use your wife's heartless response to harden your feelings towards her. She is not someone you need in your life.


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## Zing

I feel so so so so sorry for you dear man... there are not many threads I'm subscribed to on here, but I've always come back to read updates on yours (though never commented here)...your dad's passing away made it impossible for me to keep quiet....My sincerest deepest condolences to you....

It's strange how sometimes total strangers on the internet are able to reach out and understand one better then someone who is supposed to be a 'soulmate'...I'm having a lump in my throat as I type this...
I wouldn't even say things like what your wife said to a person I HATED, let alone a person I was (supposed to be) in love with....she was supposed to be close to your dad - at least to honour that relationship, she should have been there with him...with you...at least to comfort you...at least to say 'Even if we are not meant to be together, I just wanted to let you know things will be ok' 

Well...better NOT to have such a disinterested...mean...heartless person by one's side and retain one's dignity than the other way around... btw, what do her parents have to say about her behaviour...


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## Decorum

My deepest sympathies Intact.


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## gbonham77

just let her go .. she is heartless


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## terrence4159

just read you thread omg so sorry about your dad.

go cut throat on your divorce, go full custody show no mercy she would if she could, her last comments are proof


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## anchorwatch

Just saw your post, Intact. 

My prayers and condolences to you and your family.


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## Jonesey

Hi!

Sorry to hear.Just wanted to offer my prayers and condolences to you and your family.


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## Viseral

Really sorry man. I also went through a divorce and losing my father at the same time so I know how you must feel.

We'll be thinking about you. Be good to yourself.


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## karole

So sorry Intact. I have been keeping up with your thread. There are threads on this board that just pull at your heart strings and yours is one of those threads. I agree with the posters who suggest going for full custody, etc. Your wife is heartless and deserves whatever karma she gets. I hope the anger stage gets to you soon so that you will finally tell your wife to jump in a deep lake while holding a cement block.


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## Shoshannah

Intact27 said:


> Unfortunately my Dad passed away in the early hours of this morning. The last thing he said to me was how important family is and I should never give up on mine.
> 
> In about 2 hours time my wife I are going to tell our son. I'm so emotional. The only person I want by my side to help me through this is my Wife but she told me yesterday before he died "I know I've made the right decision because your dad is dying and it's not made me want to come back and it's not made me care about you" such hurtful comments.


 Your wife sounds heartless and cold. I would think that would be a turn off. Use this time to be with your family and son. The more independent you can be from her, the more she may respect you. You are afraid to lose your family, very natural. It's counter-intuitive, but she will not want to be with you anymore unless you can show her real strength and that you don't care what she does. I know you are trying to do that.


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## livinfree

Feeling for you, to a much smaller extent. This past summer during my ex's EA my grandmother passed away.

I grieved alone and later asked my ex why she didn't even hug me. She said she didn't want to give me hope.

I found out later she had been crying to her best friend about not being there for her OM while his grandmother was in the hospital.

Detaching is extremely hard, when your fever for her breaks you will realize these things chew at your soul.

Document and journal every positive thing you do with you family. Documenting is a small investment that pays off big.


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## livinfree

*Re: Re: Please help me...*



Tall Average Guy said:


> Exactly. You can always get remarried. But move forward like you deserve a good life. Use her rush to get married to your advantage by getting a good financial andcustodial settlement.


This.

You have a small window of opportunity to seize all with both hands while she is busy and pining for the OM. 

Do not give her time to think or collaborate, strike while the passion is hot.


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## Intact27

Just thought I'd give an update as people on this forum were very good too me.

Basically after my dads death I have completely given up on our marriage. I felt that I could get past an affair but I know the fact she wasn't there for me when my dad died is a huge deal breaker for me.

She continues to see OM and tells anyone that will listen how special he makes her feel, how happy she is etc etc.

My relationship with my Son has never been better - we are closer than ever - meanwhile her relationship with our son is at an all time low. He swears at her, plays her up and blames her for all that has gone on. I think he always will.

I of course, still miss and love my wife, but the truth is I deserve better and one day I will find it.

My friends have been amazing and have been a great comfort too me. In fact at my dads funeral, I walked into the church and the first people I saw was a row of 6 of my friends - people who had never met my dad but were there for me. These are true friends.

I do hope that one day my wife looks back full of regret - it may seem petty but I would look at that as some kind of victory.

I want to send a massive thank you to everyone on here who offered me advice and support. Whilst I went through the most difficult time of my life - I never walked alone.


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## headingthere

Intact, you still don't walk alone. There are so many people here who care for you and want the best for you. I expect you will get a slew of replies now that you have updated, all of us rooting for you as you recover from the devastation. {{hugs}}. I hope you continue to see that light at the end of the tunnel, and FEEL the strength as you move on.


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## happyman64

Intact

Focus on you. Continue to love your son.

Those are your priorities.

Did you ever file for " unreasonable behavior "?

Because if I was you I would want your wife out of the picture and relegated to Ex status as soon as possible.

You do realize she is not worthy of your friendship at all.

The best revenge is a life lived well.

So you and your boy should go live that life.

I am glad you are surrounded by your friends. 

HM64


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## Intact27

Thanks headingthere and happyman.

I haven't filed yet as the idea of divorce was something that really upset our son. He has last too much recently and doesn't deserve any more pain.

Having said that after 6 months I will be filing - not for unreasonable behaviour but for infidelity.


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## happyman64

Good for you Intact.

Keep us posted and Godspeed.


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## anchorwatch

Glad you're moving on Intact, you deserve better. You are better. She is what she is, selfish. Your son will learn commitment from you. Bravo.

Best wishes to you and your son.


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## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Just thought I'd give an update as people on this forum were very good too me.
> 
> Basically after my dads death I have completely given up on our marriage. I felt that I could get past an affair but I know the fact she wasn't there for me when my dad died is a huge deal breaker for me.
> 
> She continues to see OM and tells anyone that will listen how special he makes her feel, how happy she is etc etc.
> 
> My relationship with my Son has never been better - we are closer than ever - meanwhile her relationship with our son is at an all time low. He swears at her, plays her up and blames her for all that has gone on. I think he always will.
> 
> I of course, still miss and love my wife, but the truth is I deserve better and one day I will find it.
> 
> My friends have been amazing and have been a great comfort too me. In fact at my dads funeral, I walked into the church and the first people I saw was a row of 6 of my friends - people who had never met my dad but were there for me. These are true friends.
> 
> I do hope that one day my wife looks back full of regret - it may seem petty but I would look at that as some kind of victory.
> 
> I want to send a massive thank you to everyone on here who offered me advice and support. Whilst I went through the most difficult time of my life - I never walked alone.


I'm so glad you are keeping in touch.I think about you and your little boy and have always prayed for ya'll.Its wonderful that you are seeing the blessings and gifts in the darker times..that is a testament to you .You are a wonderful example for your son I'm sure many others who know you .Including me You have a wonderful heart.

(((((HUGS)))))))


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## Intact27

Thank you anchorwatch and dallasapple your words have always meant a lot.


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## dallasapple

Intact27 said:


> Thank you anchorwatch and dallasapple your words have always meant a lot.


 Your welcome and So have yours. And thank you for sharing your circumstances and heart with us during your hardest times.Its a pleasure knowing you ..I'm looking forward to happier days and times too that you get to share with us..Milestones.. triumphs and victories.:smthumbup:


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## Zing

Thank you for keeping us posted...there are many many good people out there in this world like yourself...unfortunately to balance the scales there turn out to be bad/negative people too....

Doesn't the fact that her son's turned so hateful of her make her cringe... God...it's terrible how far lust can hinder sensibility...

I was so glad to read that your friends are there for you...

Wish you all the best... and hope you and your son have happy times ahead...down the line, I hope you find true love again...


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