# lied about debt before marriage



## lou198

I am 33 and she is 26. The issue here is she wasn't honest about CC debt before we got engaged. She lied about $14k in credit card debt before we got engaged. We then purchased a car that was outside our budget for her due to this lie. I found out the debt she had and she owned up to it. My main concern is will this behavior continue? I am anal when it comes to finances and I abhor credit card debt for frivolous purchases and finding this out has me extremely upset. I am purchasing my home, I have $25k in student loans, I was upfront about that and don't carry a balance for a car loan or credit card balance.I am seriously thinking about calling off the engagement, because I don't want to live in debt or above my means. My question is should I run for the hills early as this is a sign of more things to come? Or should I try to work things out?

She would prefer a $20k wedding and getting a new home after our future kids get bigger. I just don't know if our financial perspectives are too far apart to see eye to eye for our future choices. Did any one that's currently married have any solid advice here? Did your spouse change to become a saver or did the behavior worsen?


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## Duguesclin

Financial harmony is certainly important. She should not have lied to you. But the past is the past and what is important is what she and you do next.

I would encourage you to resolve this conflict. Understand why she lied to you, but also analyze whether you contributed to that lie. You seem pretty stern on this subject and she may have felt scared.

You will have many conflict throughout your married life. It is important to learn how to resolve them. It is unrealistic to be 100% aligned when you get married.

If you cannot change then I would strongly advise you to not get married.


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## Mr.Fisty

Talk about your issues, and perhaps have separate finances as a couple. Have a joint account for bills, groceries, etccetera. See if she can work on her issues, but it is a bad sign already if she is dishonest. Remember when talking, be calm, cool, and collective. Don't talk in a accusatory tone. State your feelings on the issues. When arguing and shouting, people get defensive and your message will not get through.


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## lou198

Thanks and I totally get your points. I am just concerned with remedying the behavior. Do you think this frivolous spending continues with most spouses?


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## jld

I would not marry that girl. Lying about finances is serious, to me.

I would urge you to call it off. Give her a year or two to prove herself. Then you can put it back on if you want.


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## jld

lou198 said:


> Thanks and I totally get your points. I am just concerned with remedying the behavior. Do you think this frivolous spending continues with most spouses?


It could. Do you want to take the risk?


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## PBear

How long have you dated before getting engaged?

C


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## lou198

We haven't dated very long. About 18 months now. Engaged for 6 months. I also am like why lie. Her answer was that she works hard and should be able to get the vehicle she wants. I am thinking, " I work hard and drive an older vehicle that is paid for because I have responsibilities".

She has essentially committed 5yrs of $300+ car payments with significant cc debt left unpaid. It just doesn't make good sense in my opinion. As a man I am expected to provide for our family with someone I now consider to be selfish and unrealistic.


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## lou198

Please excuse me for venting a little bit, but I really love her, and the situation is still very fresh. I do recognize that you cannot pay bills or save for retirement with love alone. 
I was considering requesting instead of having her dad spend $20k on a wedding maybe have a smaller wedding for $10k, use $10k for cc balances. Then reviewing our credit reports together 2x's a year, to ensure we are both not hiding debt and are exercising good financial decision making. 

Am I pushing the boundaries or asking too much here? I just want to start off right and have our discretionary income go to savings, 401k, or increasing our quality of life. I don't wanna seem like an as#!*le.

If she ever piled up debt like that after marriage I wouldn't wanna continue in the marriage. Is that wrong to say?


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## unbelievable

Anyone who thinks that starting life together with $39K of unsecured debt, probably another $30K in car loan debt ($69K) and expects a $20K ring ($89K) of debt, has little understanding or interest in finances. She's talking about buying a house. Not just a house, but a new house and you two already have what amounts to a mortgage. I would postpone the marriage talk and start talking about truly important matters like honesty, security, debt, communication, teamwork, and personal responsibility. What would be the point of getting married if both of you have to work two jobs to pay for trinkets? When would you spend time together? If spending time together is most important, the debt has to go. I wouldn't be buying a new car with a woman who wasn't yet my wife.


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## jld

Listen to your own posts. You know what you need to do.

Did she ever take responsibility for lying to you? How could you stand to be married to a liar?

Okay, sorry if that sounds harsh. I just think honesty is critical in marriage.


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## Mr.Fisty

lou198 said:


> Please excuse me for venting a little bit, but I really love her, and the situation is still very fresh. I do recognize that you cannot pay bills or save for retirement with love alone.
> I was considering requesting instead of having her dad spend $20k on a wedding maybe have a smaller wedding for $10k, use $10k for cc balances. Then reviewing our credit reports together 2x's a year, to ensure we are both not hiding debt and are exercising good financial decision making.
> 
> Am I pushing the boundaries or asking too much here? I just want to start off right and have our discretionary income go to savings, 401k, or increasing our quality of life. I don't wanna seem like an as#!*le.
> 
> If she ever piled up debt like that after marriage I wouldn't wanna continue in the marriage. Is that wrong to say?




That is one of your boundaries. If it is a deal breaker, then you should not be marrying her. Love is never enough,. If she really does have a spending habit, you will only breed resentment. Learn to compromise on the issue, and create a separate saving account if you have too. Protect that saving account from her just in case things don't work out. if you purchase a house, keep it as a separate property. Buy something you can afford on your own.


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## Duguesclin

Unless she is pregnant, you should wait to get married, and there is nothing wrong to seem like an a**h0le.

You need to clear the air before you marry her.


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## PBear

First off, I'd suggest doing your own research on how matrimonial debt might affect you in the future. Keeping your finances "separate" might not protect you. 

Second, tell her you'd like to take a financial program like David Ramsey 's course. See how she responds to the class. 

I do think she'll have trouble dropping the "entitled" attitude. Better to figure it out now. 

C


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## lou198

I may have explained a couple things wrong. I have a mortgage currently. I was in the process of creating a budget for the both of us going forward. She withheld her credit card debt when I inquired, so she purchased a car that was above her means financially. She didn't save anything so I gave her the down payment. I am not liable for the vehicle loan. She did this while we were engaged. If for any reason we were married and I lost my job, we would exhaust my savings with her vehicle payments, utilities, credit card debt, my school loans, and a mortgage. At minimum we would need close to $12k in case if such an emergency.


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## jld

Financial discord is one of the top reasons for getting divorced. Unless she is committed to living within your means, I would not consider marriage.

Why are you in a rush to get married?


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## lou198

She did take responsibility for lying, but I found the debts out on my own. She didn't sit me down and spill her guts. She claims she hadn't had much experience regarding how to handle her finances. I can forgive her, but now I have to tighten our budget to include $15k in credit card debt while she drives this $20k vehicle around. It feels to me as if I am paying 80% of the necessities while she is living above her means. Even if I fully forgive her in one way or another I will be assisting in paying off debt I didn't create. At a minimum it will take 3yrs of a reduced budget to zero these balances out.

Do you think the request to reduce the wedding budget From $20k to $10k and use the other $10k for credit cards is realistic, or am I overstepping my boundaries?


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## lou198

I am not in a huge rush but at 33 I would like to start a family and not be too old to enjoy my kids.


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## jld

Maybe I am strict, but I think her not being open and honest with you is a huge red flag. I am also worried about her financial values.

Lou, some people do change their financial stripes. But it is not usually without having to suffer some penalty first.

Have you presented all this info to her, and asked her what her solution is?

Lou, there are so many nice girls out there. Why do you want to be with one who may be a financial liability?


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## Duguesclin

lou198 said:


> She did take responsibility for lying, but I found the debts out on my own. She didn't sit me down and spill her guts. She claims she hadn't had much experience regarding how to handle her finances. I can forgive her, but now I have to tighten our budget to include $15k in credit card debt while she drives this $20k vehicle around. It feels to me as if I am paying 80% of the necessities while she is living above her means. Even if I fully forgive her in one way or another I will be assisting in paying off debt I didn't create. At a minimum it will take 3yrs of a reduced budget to zero these balances out.
> 
> Do you think the request to reduce the wedding budget From $20k to $10k and use the other $10k for credit cards is realistic, or am I overstepping my boundaries?


Tell her you want to get married in front of a judge and not spend the $20k all together. You see what she says. 

If she says she deserves a big wedding, you will know what her priorities are.


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## jld

That is a good idea. Instead of a wedding, she got a car.


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## lou198

You're right, but I am smitten with her. I did fall in love with what was misinformation though. If she would of told me about Her frivolous spending I probably wouldn't have proposed.
I will take your advice and see if she is willing to forgo the expensive wedding and see what sort of response I get.


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## Duguesclin

lou198 said:


> You're right, but I am smitten with her. I did fall in love with what was misinformation though. If she would of told me about Her frivolous spending I probably wouldn't have proposed.
> I will take your advice and see if she is willing to forgo the expensive wedding and see what sort of response I get.


Well, don't be too cheap, offer to take her out for a nice dinner after the justice of the peace .


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## PBear

I was referring to future debts. If she gets additional credit cards after you're married, you may be liable for them, even if you think your finances are separate. 

Has she been self-sufficient in the past? Or always dependent on someone else, like mom and dad? 

C


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## lou198

She has always been dependent on mom and dad.I have been self sufficient since 18. She tells me all this stuff she would like to buy, and I am thinking first you don't need that and second who in the hell is going to pay for that. Lol, maybe it is different generation I am a gen Xer and she is a millenial.


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## jld

lou198 said:


> She has always been dependent on mom and dad.I have been self sufficient since 18. She tells me all this stuff she would like to buy, and I am thinking first you don't need that and second who in the hell is going to pay for that. Lol, maybe it is different generation I am a gen Xer and she is a millenial.


You have the right values, Lou. 

Set some boundaries and enforce them. I just hate to see a nice guy get totally messed with financially.


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## lou198

After I showed her our shared budget , I told her if she were to rent an apartment and pay for utilities alone with the debt she has she would be unable to afford it or be scraping by paycheck to paycheck. She played with the figures and realized I was accurate.


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## lou198

Thanx jld, 
I just fear 5 years down the road we are married and I find a shoebox with cc receipts for $30k because she started shopping again. I would call it quits and that isn't what marriage is about.


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## jld

lou198 said:


> Thanx jld,
> I just fear 5 years down the road we are married and I find a shoebox with cc receipts for $30k because she started shopping again. I would call it quits and that isn't what marriage is about.


You are right to be scared. And what choice would you realistically have but divorce, and there would probably be kids then. Yikes.


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## skype

What is her family of origin like? Our son was dating a woman who refused to live within her means. Her FOO had declared bankruptcy twice, and she never learned to be careful with her money. 

Our son did not want to face the truth about her spending, but she finally went too far when she lied to him about what she was doing with the money that he was giving her for her cell phone and car insurance bills. It was a very painful lesson for him.

I do not think people who lie about their spending can change easily. Perhaps you can test her willingness to change by creating a budget and monitoring her spending for several months.

If she recognizes that she has a problem and is willing to let you help her, then I would consider going ahead with the marriage. Over-spending is like any other addiction; people need outside help to deal it.

You can also judge her willingness to change by how defensive she is when you discuss this topic with her.


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## Akinaura

Coming from a reformed shopaholic (well, more like spending therapy), you can actually teach people like her to be better about their money...and it will stick if the other person truly cares about you.

When I married my husband, I hid $15k worth of bad debt from him. We didn't have a big fancy wedding, it was the judge who married us (I still laugh, we got married in the jail 'cause that's where the magistrate was located, LOL). But my husband tightened his belt, and helped me pay off all of that debt within the year by pinching pennies from God knows where.

It was rough the first couple of years, but nowadays, he's the one asking ME how much money we have. I'm in charge of all the bills, play money, and things that are needed for daily living. I'm the one that crunched the numbers to make sure we could afford to get a mortgage AND start our own business. Yeah, our wallets will be tight for a few years, but we do have 5 year goals.

All that said, you can do it if you really put the work into it. I also agree that if this is a deal breaker for you, hold your ground on it. Love is an emotion that can easily change. Boundaries and deal breakers can't.


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## happy as a clam

Run for the hills!!! Her little white lies, sense of entitlement (through debt) and financial deceit will only get worse.

Besides, she LIED to you. For a long time. Do you really want to marry a LIAR???


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## happy as a clam

lou198 said:


> Thanx jld,
> I just fear 5 years down the road we are married and *I find a shoebox with cc receipts for $30k because she started shopping again.* I would call it quits and that isn't what marriage is about.


Well, this isn't very far-fetched. My love-of-my-life SO was in this EXACT predicament when he was married to his wife (and mother of his children) for 17 years.

Upon filing for divorce, he discovered she had *SIXTEEN* credit cards  totaling $67,000 that SHE had taken out unbeknownst to him!!!

Imagine thinking you have all this equity in your home, only to find out that much of it will have to be used to pay off CREDIT CARD DEBT!

Run as fast as you can...


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## unbelievable

lou198 said:


> She did take responsibility for lying, but I found the debts out on my own. She didn't sit me down and spill her guts. She claims she hadn't had much experience regarding how to handle her finances. I can forgive her, but now I have to tighten our budget to include $15k in credit card debt while she drives this $20k vehicle around. It feels to me as if I am paying 80% of the necessities while she is living above her means. Even if I fully forgive her in one way or another I will be assisting in paying off debt I didn't create. At a minimum it will take 3yrs of a reduced budget to zero these balances out.
> 
> Do you think the request to reduce the wedding budget From $20k to $10k and use the other $10k for credit cards is realistic, or am I overstepping my boundaries?


Getting caught isn't the same thing as accepting responsibility. Making excuses (I was never taught to manage money) isn't accepting responsibility. Even if she attended public school to the 2nd grade, she learned how to subtract. One doesn't need an Economics degree to understand that they can't spend more than they earn. That's not an education problem, it's a values and character problem. She apparently values stuff more than honesty, independence, and you. Her debt reduction plan was apparently to marry you and satisfy her obligations with your sweat and time. If she was serious about being a life partner, she'd give up the new car, get a second job, quit even thinking about a $20K ring or a new home, and she'd make that debt disappear. The OP could prove himself by paying off or seriously knocking down that student loan debt. If they both aren't committed enough to pay off debt before the marriage they aren't committed enough to be in a marriage.


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## EleGirl

Do you have a marriage date set? If so, when is it?

You said that “We then purchased a car”. Are you on the car loan? Or did she purchase a car?

How did you find out about her $14K credit card debt?

You are purchasing your house. Will it be her house after you marry? What will she be contributing to the house payments?

This is an opportunity to find out if the two of you can work through a major crisis. 

The two of you must be on the same page about finances. If not it will seriously harm your marriage. While some married couples their finances separate, it’s not usually a good idea. When you are married, generally her debt is your debt and vice versa. She has legal claim to any cash in your accounts and vice versa. I believe that it’s best to run your marital finances in a way that reflects the marriage/family law in your state. 

It’s a bad sign that she lied to you. But you found out and it raises a very important issue that the two of you did not property address before becoming engaged.

I am a strong believer that with today’s financial environment, when couple becomes engaged they should each share their credit reports with each other. This is something that should be shared and discussed BEFORE you decide to get married. The two of you should be putting together your joint financial plan now that you are engaged… a 1 year plan, 5 year, 10 year… . If you two cannot do these things, then don’t get married.

I suggest at you two work through the books and material I’ll list below. Come up with your plan. Remember that you cannot dictate how your finances are run. How your joint income is spent and saved is a joint decision. She has as much say as you do.

What you consider frivolous purchases might not be frivolous purchases to her. There has to be negotiation. (I don’t know what she spent money on that you think is frivolous.)

There are some books and websites that I think would help you:
“Smart Couples Finish Rich” – read this one first with her because it gives good, easy to understand examples of how frivolous spending ruins your financial future.

Then look at this website:

Dave Ramsey Homepage - daveramsey.com - daveramsey.com

Is she wants a 20K wedding, while I think it’s wasteful, she should be able to have it IF SHE has the money for it. But sounds like she does not have that kind of money to blow. Are her parents paying or are you two? During all that financial planning, your wedding budget will be an important topic. Debt for a wedding is a BAD way to go. You will most likely need to negotiate a less expensive wedding. 

On the topic of her wanting a bigger house when your children are older, there is nothing wrong with that. She has the right to a desire like this. A lot of couples do this. They start out in smaller home. Once they have kids, they sell the smaller home and buy a larger one. When the kids are gone, they sell the larger home and move into a home for their retirement. It makes perfect sense. It’s also a good way to build assets. The “Smart Couples Finish Rich” book talks about how to make this happen. 

The idea that if show follows what the book says to do will mean that she can have her dream house when the kids get old could be the bargaining chip you use to get her to make and follow a plan with you.


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## EleGirl

lou198 said:


> Please excuse me for venting a little bit, but I really love her, and the situation is still very fresh. I do recognize that you cannot pay bills or save for retirement with love alone.
> I was considering requesting instead of having her dad spend $20k on a wedding maybe have a smaller wedding for $10k, use $10k for cc balances. Then reviewing our credit reports together 2x's a year, to ensure we are both not hiding debt and are exercising good financial decision making.
> 
> Am I pushing the boundaries or asking too much here? I just want to start off right and have our discretionary income go to savings, 401k, or increasing our quality of life. I don't wanna seem like an as#!*le.
> 
> If she ever piled up debt like that after marriage I wouldn't wanna continue in the marriage. Is that wrong to say?


If her father will help pay off her CC bills, that would be a great wedding gift. 

A smart wedding planner can make $10K look like $20K

It's not too much to ask to review your credit reports 2xs a year. As long as both of you put your reports up for mutual review.

It's ok to have the attitude that if she creates excessive debt while you are married, you will not stay married. That's called you having a boundary. You need to tell her this loud and clear.


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## EleGirl

lou198 said:


> I may have explained a couple things wrong. I have a mortgage currently. *I was in the process of creating a budget for the both of us going forward.* She withheld her credit card debt when I inquired, so she purchased a car that was above her means financially. She didn't save anything so I gave her the down payment. I am not liable for the vehicle loan. She did this while we were engaged. If for any reason we were married and I lost my job, we would exhaust my savings with her vehicle payments, utilities, credit card debt, my school loans, and a mortgage. At minimum we would need close to $12k in case if such an emergency.


I see part of the problem here. YOU were planning and making a budget. It will not work if you make a budget/plan. She has to be equally involved and have equal input.


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## JustHer

I am sorry for your situation, it is difficult when you are planning a wedding and have things like this pop up. As another poster said though, finances is one of the top reasons for divorce, so I would take this very seriously. 

First, I would have a credit check done on her and find out exactly how much and to whom she has debt out to.

Second, I would ask her to trade in her car for a cheaper one. If she isn't willing to tighten in the belt to pay off her own debt, then she isn't considering how her debt will affect you.

Third, I would postpone the wedding until she makes a budget and pays down some of her debt and shows that she is going to be pro active in taking care of this. And I would continue to check with updated credit checks.

Forth, I would not ask her dad to pay her debts. Is she is to learn to live withing her and your means, she needs to pay them off herself. If she gets her debts payed down on her own, then let dad throw a wedding if he wants. But only if she pays off her debts first.

Once that gets done, then I would make a budget for the future with her and a bigger house and 20K ring is out.

Good luck...


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## unbelievable

lou198 said:


> I may have explained a couple things wrong. I have a mortgage currently. I was in the process of creating a budget for the both of us going forward. She withheld her credit card debt when I inquired, so she purchased a car that was above her means financially. She didn't save anything so I gave her the down payment. I am not liable for the vehicle loan. She did this while we were engaged. If for any reason we were married and I lost my job, we would exhaust my savings with her vehicle payments, utilities, credit card debt, my school loans, and a mortgage. At minimum we would need close to $12k in case if such an emergency.


One person doesn't make a couple's budget. A couple has to make a couple's budget. Either both are on board or one is the enemy of the other.


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## unbelievable

You and your fiance are poor. Between her debt, your debt, and the new car, you would need about $60K to make it to "broke". Poor people don't wear $20K rings and they don't need $20K weddings. I would urge you to avoid falling into the trap of pretending to be wealthy when you are so not. Neither you nor your fiance' need to impress anyone with your stuff but you will need to eat, pay bills on time, probably pay for kids (and they aren't cheap). I would prefer to appear poor but be wealthy than to appear wealthy while actually being in worse financial shape than any homeless person.


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## lou198

I own my home now. I am paying mortgage payments on it. I am not on her car loan. Even before we got engaged I requested to know her monthly expenses. I disclosed all of my monthly obligations, she didn't inform me about the credit card balances. I requested to know what sort of car would work for a joint budget. We haven't set a date for the wedding yet.


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## toonaive

Resolve this before you get married. I repeat. RESOLVE THIS BEFORE YOU GET MARRIED!! Put off the wedding if you have to. BTW, dont waste that kind of money on a wedding. 20K? seriously.


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## lou198

Also I wouldn't say I am poor, with the equity in my home I could consolidate my student loans and be debt free other than the mortgage. I definitely agree with your believes-unbelievable, live below your means and be comfortable financially


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## lou198

Elegirl- Thanks for your response, it is very informative and has some good ideas. I am not sure if we would put her on the home loan. I haven't looked into the tax benefits or pros and cons of adding her to the home. Her father offered to pay for the wedding, she initially stated that we should pay for it alone. I would prefer if that $ were applied to the CC debt and have a smaller wedding. I know everyone is correct in saying make sure we are on the same page or it can be a dealbreaker. It's like I want to get over it and move on, but this huge balance still needs to be paid off. I don't wanna start our life union paying off CC debt. I also don't want to use my hard earned money to pay off debts she created before she met me.


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## Feeling-Lonely

Definitely a red flag. 
I agree with posters above get her give up the expensive car and instead pay her debt. Credit car debt in my opinion is a red flag itself. Unless it is some kind of emergency (health or otherwise) credit card debt is not acceptable.


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## AliceA

I was friends with a married couple who seemed to get along, but one day the husband was telling me about their never ending issues with her spending whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted. She had no concept of sticking to a budget and nor did she care. It was his problem basically. I told him I thought he should involve her in the budgeting process, even get her to manage paying all the bills to try and make her feel responsible for her spending but he'd already given up. He just worked longer hours to try and cover all their expenses. 

They had three children together and are now getting a divorce. I don't think money was the only factor, but the stress about not being on the same page with spending, him having to work so much overtime just made the foundations of their marriage crumble. When a big issue came along, instead of being able to communicate and work through it, it all fell in a heap.

I also think she should sell the car and drive something much cheaper. She should also clear her debt before the wedding and be made responsible for sticking to the budget. Hand her the responsibility and see how it goes imo. Throw her in the deep end. My BIL did this to my sister who could never save a cent and she's now better at sticking to a budget than he is. I can't believe how much she has changed.


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## lou198

We talked about selling the car and purchasing something less expensive. She isnt willing to get rid of the car, she considers it embarassing. She says she would rather tough it out and also doesnt want to ask her father for the wedding $ as a semi- wedding gift, because we aren't married. These are not good signs, I told her to think it over.


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## PBear

Is she willing to cut back on the wedding? 

C


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## ricky15100

She sounds like a lovely little princess


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## jld

Well, what _did_ she offer to do?


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## lou198

She hasn't offered to do anything, other than see if she can get a loan from family to reduce the interest rates. She would still be responsible for the principal amount just at a lower rate. The car in my opinion should go back. It was purchased under false pretenses and individually she cannot afford it. She claims to be in love with the car, but I think she just is accustomed to feeling entitled. I want to correct this behavior immediately, but I don't know how to.


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## jld

Well, surely you've had _some_ ideas come to mind. 

What would you tell a friend that found himself in the same situation you're in?


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## PBear

*Re: Re: lied about debt before marriage*



lou198 said:


> She hasn't offered to do anything, other than see if she can get a loan from family to reduce the interest rates. She would still be responsible for the principal amount just at a lower rate. The car in my opinion should go back. It was purchased under false pretenses and individually she cannot afford it. She claims to be in love with the car, but I think she just is accustomed to feeling entitled. I want to correct this behavior immediately, but I don't know how to.


Is she your child, or a prospective life partner? 

C


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## jld

PBear said:


> Is she your child, or a prospective life partner?
> 
> C


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## skype

Lou:
She gave you her answer--she is not willing to change her behavior. Now you have to decide if you want to marry a person who refuses to live within her means.


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## Jung_admirer

lou198 said:


> She hasn't offered to do anything, other than see if she can get a loan from family to reduce the interest rates. She would still be responsible for the principal amount just at a lower rate. The car in my opinion should go back. It was purchased under false pretenses and individually she cannot afford it. She claims to be in love with the car, but I think she just is accustomed to feeling entitled. I want to correct this behavior immediately, but I don't know how to.


Work with her on a budget for the next 3-5 years. Give her 12 months to show she can stick to her financial commitments. I suggest there may be a great many things you should discuss together before marrying. Perhaps start here: 
Questions to Ask a Prospective Partner


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## lou198

Budget for he next 3-5 yrs isnt fair to me. I will end up paying for expenses for her. After all of the advice provided i think the best option is to sale the car. Any other way she is still living above her means and will maintain that sense of entitlement.


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## jld

lou198 said:


> Budget for he next 3-5 yrs isnt fair to me. I will end up paying for expenses for her. After all of the advice provided i think the best option is to sale the car. Any other way she is still living above her means and will maintain that sense of entitlement.


How does your taking this decision empower her to make wiser decisions in the future?


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## Observer

Listen to folks here man, all of us have been married and know what that entails. Money and sex are two huge areas couple fight about. You want to make sure you enter into this eternal bond on the same sheet of music, or believe you me, years from now you will be on these forums with much different problems. Is this your first love? If not, you should understand you can find another woman to love who also is like minded. Chances for a successful marrigae increase significantly when that's the case.


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## lou198

I believe she will have to realize you have to make sound financial decisions in order to live a responsible life. You cannot mislead the person you love and expect them to pay for your deception. I will not tighten my belt to pay for her unnecessary purchases. She will be empowered to live within her means going forward because she knows you can't have everything you want at the expense of others. I want her mainly to understand that we have to make decisions that are best for us a unit.


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## lou198

Thanks Observer, the main thing is I am pretty sure she doesn't have a clear and cut ideology when it comes to money. I am trying to determine if she wants to reduce unnecessary spending or continue her behavior. She isn't in denial about shopping when she is emotional to make herself feel better. She says she wants to do better, but I believe it starts with selling the car and getting something affordable. So far she is unwilling to do that, though.


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## jld

lou198 said:


> Thanks Observer, the main thing is I am pretty sure she doesn't have a clear and cut ideology when it comes to money. I am trying to determine if she wants to reduce unnecessary spending or continue her behavior. She isn't in denial about shopping when she is emotional to make herself feel better. She says she wants to do better, but I believe it starts with selling the car and getting something affordable. So far she is unwilling to do that, though.


And what does that tell you that you may not want to hear?


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## Observer

lou198 said:


> I believe she will have to realize you have to make sound financial decisions in order to live a responsible life. You cannot mislead the person you love and expect them to pay for your deception. I will not tighten my belt to pay for her unnecessary purchases. She will be empowered to live within her means going forward because she knows you can't have everything you want at the expense of others. I want her mainly to understand that we have to make decisions that are best for us a unit.


And if her actions suggest she does not believe as you do, what then? Actions speak louder than words. Careful not to force the situation either, either you are of like mind, or you're not. You have done well it sounds, very responsible. Use that brain that got you to where you are...think. If you proceed, I would 100% seperate fincances so you don't have to deal with the frustration of dealing with her spending. Let her manage her own budget and bills so she can see that spending more than your bring in simply does not work.


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## jld

And who pays for the lessons while she's learning, Observer?


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## PBear

You're treating her as a child, and this is how your relationship will flow. She isn't seeing the issue with what she's done. 

And like I mentioned before... Separate finances, once married, may not protect you. Debts incurred during marriage, regardless of whose name is on them, are often the responsibility of both partners. 

C


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## tonedef

When you said she said she works hard and technically deserves that car, and other ways of accumalating cc debt to live beyond her means sounds like entitlement issues- which is a personality problem not financial problem. Just something to consider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lou198

I am trying to treat her as an adult and let her make a sound decision. I dont believe you can 100% seperate bills. You are either contributing to the solution or the problem. When we want our next house and she cant go on the loan it affects both of us. In theory it sounds fine , in practice it seems problematic. I will not be taken advantage of.


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## PBear

It seems to me that you're telling her what she needs to do, and her only "decision" is to go along with it. Just based on what you're posting here... 

C


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## skype

Make sure she understands that this is a firm boundary for you, otherwise she will continue to try to skate out of being responsible with money. You have to take some action to demonstrate your concern about this. Words alone are not enough. She may believe she can charm you into paying her bills.


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## jld

If you were my son, I would be all over you to stop this engagement until she demonstrated financial responsibility. Actions, coming from her own heart.


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## EleGirl

lou198 said:


> We talked about selling the car and purchasing something less expensive. She isnt willing to get rid of the car, she considers it embarassing. She says she would rather tough it out and also doesnt want to ask her father for the wedding $ as a semi- wedding gift, because we aren't married. These are not good signs, I told her to think it over.


She is right that asking for the money from her father at this point might not be right. It's the wedding money. You two are not married. The money is not spent until the wedding.

Now the money would go to her and not be a wedding gift. It would be from father to daughter. She could do that.


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## EleGirl

lou198 said:


> Budget for he next 3-5 yrs isnt fair to me. I will end up paying for expenses for her. After all of the advice provided i think the best option is to sale the car. Any other way she is still living above her means and will maintain that sense of entitlement.


This makes no sense. Everyone should have a budget that looks out to the next 3-5 years. Make the budge from today, 1 year, 2 years, 5 years. Then get her input. Show her that the car does not computer.

Then give her up to a week for her to think about it and for her to come up with solutions, ideas.


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## EleGirl

lou198 said:


> I believe she will have to realize you have to make sound financial decisions in order to live a responsible life. You cannot mislead the person you love and expect them to pay for your deception. I will not tighten my belt to pay for her unnecessary purchases. She will be empowered to live within her means going forward because she knows you can't have everything you want at the expense of others. I want her mainly to understand that we have to make decisions that are best for us a unit.


I agree with is with one caveat, she has as much say in what's right for you as you do.

She thinks that the car is necessary. You think it's not. Neither of you will budge. You are both hard headed. with your joint income you can make the car payments. She can get a loan from family to reduce the interest rate which means reducing the payment.

I'm not saying that she is right or that you are right. What I'm saying is that the two of you are not compatible. 

In marriage there is not "your income" and "her income", it's marital income. You will not be paying for her car, the two of you will pay for it out of marital income. This has not dawned on you yet.

Are the two of you living together?


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## EleGirl

lou198 said:


> Thanks Observer, the main thing is I am pretty sure she doesn't have a clear and cut ideology when it comes to money. I am trying to determine if she wants to reduce unnecessary spending or continue her behavior. She isn't in denial about shopping when she is emotional to make herself feel better. She says she wants to do better, but I believe it starts with selling the car and getting something affordable. So far she is unwilling to do that, though.


Your fiancé is going from her father's house to living with you. She has not had the chance yet to learn to be independent and how to handle finances.

It was suggested to you that you sit down with her, go through education on finances (Smart Couples Finish Rich and the Ramsey stuff). This way the two of you learn together and work together to manage your finances together. It was suggested that you BOTH work on a multi year budget.

Your response is that you cannot work on a multi year budget. Then you ignore/skip the entire part about her needing to learn more. Instead you sit her down and tell her she has to get rid fo the car.

I she was my daughter, I'd tell her to leave you. Why? Because you were given solid advice which you have blown off. You don't want to work as a team, you want to make all financial decisions and tell her what to do. Almost anyone would dig in their heels with the way you are approaching her.

She was wrong for not telling you about her cc debit. She was wrong to buy a car that she cannot afford.

But, if your goal is to see if she can grow, learn and mature, you are going about this all wrong.


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## EleGirl

Observer said:


> And if her actions suggest she does not believe as you do, what then? Actions speak louder than words. Careful not to force the situation either, either you are of like mind, or you're not. You have done well it sounds, very responsible. Use that brain that got you to where you are...think. If you proceed, I would 100% seperate fincances so you don't have to deal with the frustration of dealing with her spending. Let her manage her own budget and bills so she can see that spending more than your bring in simply does not work.


Separating finances will not work. Legally they are responsible for the bills the other makes.


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## Observer

EleGirl said:


> Separating finances will not work. Legally they are responsible for the bills the other makes.


Yes of course, I meant to teach her a lesson. She sounds very young and maybe has not had experience managing things.


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## sh987

lou198 said:


> We talked about selling the car and purchasing something less expensive. *She isnt willing to get rid of the car, she considers it embarassing.* She says she would rather tough it out and also doesnt want to ask her father for the wedding $ as a semi- wedding gift, because we aren't married. These are not good signs, I told her to think it over.


When I was a kid, I used to hear my mother say the same things over and over again. It was variations of

-I deserve to have that.
-I can't buy that, it's beneath me.
-I have a right to nice clothes.

Etc, etc, etc. Small problem with those things? We were very very poor, and her spending habits ensured that we remained poor. Did you ever see "Everybody Hates Chris", where the mother is described as being a "ghetto snob"? That's my mother. She's doing ok, financially speaking right now, but she's living on her inheritance. When she's burned through it in a year or two, she'll be back to wondering she's in the same bad shape with her bank account.

My brother grew up and married a woman with exactly the same mindset. Living in overdraft, getting furniture at the rent-to-own, going on vacation 2 or 3 times per year, buying a car which was way out of their price range, etc, was a way of life for them. He enabled her in his ways, by never complaining or stopping her from spending the money before it was put towards bills.

And even with the bankruptcy looming, she was giving $50 at the church every week, because she didn't want people to think they were poor. When he finally opened up to me about the state of their finances, she was humiliated, and told him they had to leave town now that knew the two of them (along with their daughter) were broke.

To me (and others are free to disagree) it's a dangerous thing to hear the attitude of "I deserve". I don't know what my wife and I deserve, but I sure as hell know what we can afford.

I would be VERY leery as things are right now, if I were you.



Oh, and yes: my brother did have to eventually declare bankruptcy.


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## unbelievable

lou198 said:


> Also I wouldn't say I am poor, with the equity in my home I could consolidate my student loans and be debt free other than the mortgage. I definitely agree with your believes-unbelievable, live below your means and be comfortable financially


Ok, you have "equity" in a home which can disappear at the whims of the market. Even if you tapped into it and paid off these other loans, you'd be only moving your debt from an unsecured position to a secured one. You'd still owe the money. It'd be like selling 99% of your home back to the bank and paying them rent. You can put makeup on it but you have debt and too much of it to be talking about $20K rings and other trinkets of the truly wealthy. I drive an old car and my wife's ring isn't going to set any tongues wagging or make flashbulbs go off. Still, we owe almost nothing on the house and we have enough cash in various stock accounts to pay off the house and still live a few years without stress or drama even if I lost my job tomorrow. If you think your stuff is worth something, go to a yard sale and see all the crap people slaved for and just had to have, going for pennies on the dollar.


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## Anenome

lou198 said:


> Do you think the request to reduce the wedding budget From $20k to $10k and use the other $10k for credit cards is realistic, or am I overstepping my boundaries?


Definitly overstepping your boundaries. I don't think it's your place to suggest how her parents spend their money. If they want to spend $20k on a wedding, that's their choice and may be what they want to spend it on. They may feel very differently about spending their money on paying off her credit card debt. Acting as if the $20k budgeted for the wedding is yours or even hers to spend differently is inappropriate. If they were spending $10k on the wedding instead, maybe they would expect to keep the $10k not spent in their bank account.

Not to mention, doing so would only reinforce to her that someone will bail her out of her poor financial decisions. She needs to know what it feels like to pay off her own debt or she will not appreciate the downside to accumulating it. You're looking for a quick fix, but it's better that she learn this lesson sooner than later.

Suggest postponing marriage until she proves that she can dig herself out of this mess. Right now, it's not looking good that she honestly cares to (red flag).

I'm frugal and financially minded, too, so I get where you are coming from.


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## lou198

I do pay all the bills except about $400 per month for groceries and a few utilities. When we made the budget it was to evaluate what our monthly expenses would be like in our married future. I am concerned because I would handle the finances. After her father gives me her hand I want to feel comfortable in being able to provide for my family. If anything happened to my job we could not survive very long on my 6 months of reserves. She has little to no savings and could afford only to pay her bills and not our joint financial obligations. This is scary to me and I don't want to live like that.


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## lou198

It seems like yeah I may be harsh saying the right thing to do is sell the car and purchase something you can afford. To make sure the CC debt is reduced to a manageable amount. I am telling her this not only as her loving fiance but I would tell it to any one that was living significantly above their means. I thought requesting cash from the parents as a wedding gift was overstepping my boundaries so I won't do that. She said she would pick up a second job, but I don't wanna have a fiance that is never around because she is working 60 hours a week. That solution is non-sensical to me. I want someone to share my life with not a wife that's not home cause she is breaking her back to pay interest charges.


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## JustHer

I agree with a lot of what Eli said.

In addition to that, and I didn't read through it all so if I am repeating - ignore it, you need to be careful that this, or any other issue, doesn't turn your relationship into a child-parent one.

Because of the age difference, it would be easy for you to take on the roll of a parent and start treating her as a child. This is a big no no and will guarantee a failed marriage. She will put up with it for a while, but after a few years she will rebel as a teen does from their parents and that will be the end.

It also appears that you are willing to take an easy out by letting her dad pay her debts. I commend her for not asking her father for the money.

The best thing is to put the ball in her court, let her know how you feel, what your expectations are when it comes to a partnership, and let her choose. If she chooses not to be responsible, then you have your answer.

Life is full of choices and sometimes we have to make the one we don't want to because it is the right one.


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## JustHer

lou198 said:


> It seems like yeah I may be harsh saying the right thing to do is sell the car and purchase something you can afford. To make sure the CC debt is reduced to a manageable amount. I am telling her this not only as her loving fiance but I would tell it to any one that was living significantly above their means. I thought requesting cash from the parents as a wedding gift was overstepping my boundaries so I won't do that. *She said she would pick up a second job, but I don't wanna have a fiance that is never around because she is working 60 hours a week. That solution is non-sensical to me. *I want someone to share my life with not a wife that's not home cause she is breaking her back to pay interest charges.


You can't have it both ways. You either let her fix this and treat her like an adult, or you interfere and end up controlling her choices in life.

Let her work 60 hours if that is what it takes. She will learn the value of money and responsibility and you will not become the gate keeper and sole decision maker (parent)


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## jld

The problem is you two don't have the same financial values. 

Personally, I think you have the right ones. To me, you either need for her to conform to yours or to call off the engagement.

I realize I sound pretty rigid about this. I just think if you are planning to take on financial responsibility for the family, then your values need to rule.

There are so many nice girls out there. Why don't you find one who already shares your values? Your future would be so much more peaceful.

My husband put down some pretty rigid financial rules at the beginning of our relationship. I just accepted them as a condition of being with him. 

Sure, we have not had new cars and it took a while before we could afford to remodel our home. But we have financial peace of mind. One less possible stressor and source of conflict in a marriage.


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## Duguesclin

Before she decides to start working 60 hours a week, she needs to get the spending under control. I agree that you should not necessarily control what she does, but she needs to demonstrate she can stay within her means. Once she has demonstrated that, a plan can be put together to get the $14k debt down.

It is like a tank of water that is leaking. You first fix the leak, then you work on filling the tank back up. Starting filling up the tank (working 60 hours) before it is fixed (overspending) does not address the problem.

I have not read all the post so ignore this point if it has already been mentioned. But, for the car, I would forget selling it. I doubt that she will be much ahead, simply because you lose 15% to 30% of the value of the car just for buying it.


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## lou198

I did offer her some books to read on finance and discuss a personal as well as a joint budget. I will be glad to research the references you listed. I just don't see how the car stays and for me to be ok with it. One way or another I am contributing to an unnecessary debt with the addition of the CC balances. It is putting her in a position where she couldn't sustain herself without me. We aren't married yet and those decisions before hand that will add stress to our marriage need to be remedied. I personally cannot accept the behavior and keeping the car one way or another says what you did was permissible, cause that payment will be made for the next 58 months.


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## lou198

After listening to everyone I am pretty much decided. If she is willing to get out of the car and reduce her CC debts then that is acceptable for me. Accepting the CC debt as well as adding new debt is not. The dishonesty played a bigger role in my decision. I also don't think it's fair for her father or myself to bail her out. I will be glad to have her take time to come up with any reasonable additional solutions. I know she is younger and growing and she needs love, advice, and support from me. I cannot support that decision making that piled on more debt and feel I have to rectify this matter completely. I will also dedicate myself to ensuring we are on the same page financially, but if we cannot start off right, then marriage is out of the question for me.


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## Duguesclin

You can make the car a matter of principle between you and your girlfriend. But money wise it just does not make any sense. 

How a bad decision can be fixed by another bad one. You want to show her good financial decision making. I am sorry, but telling her to get rid of the car and buy a used one does not make any long term financial sense.


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## lou198

Guess for me the car was a matter if principle. It said to me that she would keep believe living beyond her means was acceptable and for me it isn't. She decided to keep her car and move back in with her parents. I am heartbroken but maybe it is best for the long run. I would have bought her a car cash if she agreed to pay off the CC debt, but she didn't want to be embarrassed with selling the car...


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## jld

I think what has happened is for the best, Lou. 

Is the break up for good, or are you still going to date?


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## NotLikeYou

lou198 said:


> Guess for me the car was a matter if principle. It said to me that she would keep believe living beyond her means was acceptable and for me it isn't. She decided to keep her car and move back in with her parents. *I am heartbroken but maybe it is best for the long run.* I would have bought her a car cash if she agreed to pay off the CC debt, but she didn't want to be embarrassed with selling the car...


lou198, you're still young, at 33.

And while you seem to have a good head on your shoulders with respect to finances and saving money, you are kind of clueless about relationships.

Because you have NO FREAKING IDEA what kind of bullet you are in the process of dodging.

One of the horrifying things about marriage is that if the other person wants to run up debt, they can (either spouse). And then both spouses become responsible for that debt. Except that then you get divorced and as the man, you get all the debt after all. And she gets all your stuff, but that's a topic for, like 6 billion other threads, and don't I sound whiney!

Now, you mention multiple times a worst-case scenario. You lose your job, and you would burn through your savings in 6 months.

You lack imagination.

Pretend you're 40+, with a couple of kids by this woman, and she has kept you from living on much of a budget, just by nickel and dime-ing you to death. And THEN you lose your job. And then you discover that she took out a payday loan on her new car, and you missed it in the 25 pages of details on the credit report. And somehow over the years, you still only have a 6 month reserve. And she's been doing Domestic Engineering, rather than working a job outside the house that brings in money......

Now stop being heart broken and thank your lucky stars that you found out how she really is now, rather than later!


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## lou198

I don't know I have a hole in my heart right now, other than the significant debt burden on she is a great girl. She was supposed to be my wife, I am crushed, but I guess I have my principles. Who knows I am lost right now...


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## lou198

After hearing that possibility NoT like you, I chuckled. It helped to warm me up a bit. I just love her and wish she was willing to not be so materialistic. She literally chose the car. I said I will buy you a car for cash, we knock out a majority of the CC balances in 18 months and then buy the car you want. She just couldn't let it go, so she packed her things and left me. I am gonna make a stiff drink and go to bed .


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## Openminded

Yes, it would be wonderful if she were not so materialistic but she is and it's much better to find that out sooner rather than later. Financial issues cause many divorces.


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## EleGirl

lou198 said:


> After hearing that possibility NoT like you, I chuckled. It helped to warm me up a bit. I just love her and wish she was willing to not be so materialistic. She literally chose the car. I said I will buy you a car for cash, we knock out a majority of the CC balances in 18 months and then buy the car you want. She just couldn't let it go, so she packed her things and left me. I am gonna make a stiff drink and go to bed .


Wait... you offered for her to sell the new car, you buy her a cheaper car cash, then replace it with another new car in 18 months... so she can get the exact same new car but a newer model in 18 months?

How much will she lose selling a new car right now?

Seem to me that it might be a wash, or close to a wash, if you put the money on her CC debt, then pay it off the remainder in 18-24 months, it's a better decision.

It sounds like your point is to teach her a lesson having her get rid of the new car. It's your way or the high way. She chose the high way. It's very likely that she chose it as much because of the "your way or the high way" attitude.

You gave her books on finances. That's no how it's done. The two of you study them together to build a mutual understanding.

It is completely possible that she could learn how to manage her money. She has never been on her own so this is all new to her. But you insist that its' all on your terms.

You have a basic misunderstanding of marriage. In this day and age a father does not give a 26 year old, college educated, woman away to you to marry. That is only symbolic. You wife should be your equal partner. You made it clear to her that you do not see her as an equal partner.


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## lou198

Elegirl... When does one say this decision is not best for our partnership. $30k debt load with $1k in your savings account. As her husband I am responsible for protecting and providing. I am not responsible for taking care of whimsical desires. If we are going to be married we have to make sound decisions together. The car is not new so we didn't take a huge depreciation hit, we would most likely be able to pay off the loan entirely. This would allow her to put a significant amount of money to reduce the higher interest credit card debt. Keeping the car in my opinion says that living above your means is ok. Even if you work your ass of to pay interest charges for things you don't need. It doesn't make sense to me.


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## Duguesclin

She left really fast. I am amazed. At least she made her decision quickly and has helped you greatly in your decision process. I am sure you are hurt but it is a clean cut.

For the next one, you should try to make a better assessment and show your cards quickly.

Good luck.


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## shalom_82

My husband and I have only been together for just under 3 years, and I'm chiming in here because before me, he was with his ex for 20+years and had a similar (possibly worse) issue. Shortly after he committed to her, she came clean about a recent bankruptcy! They were planning to buy a house together and combine their finances in other ways, so she had to come clean. 

He still held resentment about the issue 20 years later. Money issues came up several times throughout their relationship. Examples: She passed up and/or quit good-paying jobs on at least 2 occasions that he shared with me. She faked having cancer long after it went into remission! (How does someone get away with that?) She intentionally crashed a car that he bought for her in order to justify not going back to work after the cancer. She sold the diamond out of her engagement ring in order to buy weight loss stuff! 

The stories are just crazy and I feel so bad for him. He was mad at her for obvious reasons, and mad at himself for putting up with it time after time, when he could have just walked away at the beginning. I think it got harder and harder to walk away as the years went by and he just chose to suffer.


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## Hopeful Cynic

I know it hurts because you are losing the dream of what you thought you could have. But luckily for you, you found out that the dream wasn't reality before you made a commitment and you had the right reaction.

Your marriage was going to have several awful things going into it.

First, your (ex)fiancee was dishonest with you. You just can't base a marriage on anything but openness and honesty! If she was willing to lie about her finances, what else might she conceal from you to get her way or avoid your disapproval?

Second, you two simply weren't financially compatible, which is also very important for a marriage. She wanted to be a pampered princess bride, and you wanted a sensible, equal partner.

Third, she wouldn't give up the car when you discussed it, so she demonstrated that her materialistic side was greater than her respect for you, or admitting she made a mistake. Before marriage was a good time to learn that she valued the car and her image more than she valued you and financial security.

Maybe she'll come to her senses and mature and apologize to you, and you can try again, or maybe she'll find some other rich sucker to date. Or maybe you'll find a sensible woman who values you for more than your paycheck and is willing to be an equal partner in marriage finances. 33 is not old, but it sounds like your (ex)fiancee was too young for you.

You got lucky!


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## EleGirl

lou198 said:


> Elegirl... When does one say this decision is not best for our partnership. $30k debt load with $1k in your savings account. As her husband I am responsible for protecting and providing. I am not responsible for taking care of whimsical desires. If we are going to be married we have to make sound decisions together. The car is not new so we didn't take a huge depreciation hit, we would most likely be able to pay off the loan entirely. This would allow her to put a significant amount of money to reduce the higher interest credit card debt. Keeping the car in my opinion says that living above your means is ok. Even if you work your ass of to pay interest charges for things you don't need. It doesn't make sense to me.


You have every right to decide not to marry someone who is brining a lot of debt into the marriage and who lied about it. That's not want I'm talking about.

Your entire approach to this is like you are the father and she is the child. Marriage is between partners. She has the responsibility to fix her own mistakes, and in doing that she needs to do it in her own way... not with you ordering her to do it your way.

There is the possibility that she could learn with the two of you working together as equal partners, but you are not interested in that. 

With the way this was handled, she made the right choice in leaving.


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## Roselyn

You dodged this bullet. I'm a woman, married ongoing 35 years. When my husband and I planned to be married, we put all our assets and debts on the table. I mean physical statements and bank accounts. We planned our wedding (a formal one/formal dinner/open bar for 50 people) and paid for it ourselves, so that neither set of parents will blow our budget. When we married, we paid off all our debts within the month.

Fast forward, we still have our cars from college years (before we married), paid for home, two investment rental houses (all paid for), and 5 college degrees. We are both career people and elected to have no children. We are debt free and financially stressed free. It is liberating to be debt free. I am 56 years old and my husband 59. We plan to ride off in the sunset at a very old age (we hope).

Pick your spouse wisely. It can make heaven or hell for you on earth. My best wishes to you.


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## jld

Roselyn said:


> Pick your spouse wisely. It can make heaven or hell for you on earth.


Truth.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

I'm going to be odd man (woman) out here and probably get crucified in the process, but...here goes.

I have been married 30 years in January and I am the spender and my husband is the saver in our relationship. It has always been this way and at our age, is not changing anytime soon.

I love my husband, but his cheapness has made me resentful on more than one occasion, especially since I've been the "majority" bread winner (made more $$), than he for about the last 20 years of our marriage. 

I don't gamble, I'm not into expensive jewelry or designer clothing. But, I do like to shop on occasion and I make enough of my own money that I should not have to be questioned about each penny I spend. I'm my husband's wife, not his child, and will not be treated as such.

I did get us into debt at one time and we paid if off, and I have been more careful since, but do I use credit cards? Yep. Do I pretty much buy what I want? Yep. And I make absolutely no excuses for it. I've worked damn hard for everything I've earned and that I possess, sometimes working up to three jobs, including while I was on active duty, before I retired.

I have never-ever once questioned what my husband has purchased, even if I didn't agree with it. And I expect the same.

A few years back we decided to set up separate accounts. It was actually a relief for me, because then I wouldn't have to explain when I spent money. His military retirement/disability goes into a separate account that doesn't even have my name on it and I'm okay with that. We then have another account where my military retirement, disability, and post-retirement income goes. I pay ALL the monthly expenses out of my account. Mortgage, credit cards, insurance, food, gas, etc. He pays any major expenses (if we owe taxes, repairs to house, cars, anything major).

I do not consult with him on what I spend and vice versa. Anything he wants for himself comes out of his account and anything I want for myself comes out of mine. I am spending MY money only on myself, not at dime of it is his. This way I'm not looking over my shoulder when I'm paying all the bills and spending anything left over because it is money I've earned myself.

This is probably for the best, because as someone who has lived with someone obsessed over money, I can attest that it's just as miserable being on the other side and having each and every purchase questioned, etc. She would have eventually resented you and you her for the same reasons (her inability to spend her money and your inability to not control all of it).

I wish you the best, but it sounds like this was the best outcome, not only for you, but for her also.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

lou198 said:


> After listening to everyone I am pretty much decided. If she is willing to get out of the car and reduce her CC debts then that is acceptable for me. Accepting the CC debt as well as adding new debt is not. The dishonesty played a bigger role in my decision. I also don't think it's fair for her father or myself to bail her out. I will be glad to have her take time to come up with any reasonable additional solutions. I know she is younger and growing and she needs love, advice, and support from me. I cannot support that decision making that piled on more debt and feel I have to rectify this matter completely. I will also dedicate myself to ensuring we are on the same page financially, but if we cannot start off right, then marriage is out of the question for me.


I really hate to say this, but am going to anyway.

Reading this one post - you sound exactly like you are her Dad and not a man who loves and wants to marry her. The minute you set rules and boundaries in order for you to accept someone as your wife - is the minute I would run out the door, you wouldn't need to.

Seriously...all I can do is shake my head.


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## lou198

I don't intend to sound like her father. In my opinion people let love and the idea of love allow them to tolerate behavior they shouldn't. Love is not going to stop your wages from being garnished, your home from being foreclosed, or you car from being repossessed. Love doesn't stop physical/verbal abuse, cheating, or gambling issues. You either put your foot down or continue to get walked over. I will not be walked over for love or the idea of love. I feel if she loves me she will do the right thing. If not she can live with her decisions.


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## lou198

I am not her father nor do I claim to be. If I am going to share my life with someone and depend on them to make sound decisions, then what I am asking I don't believe is way over the top. Would you would be okay with starting a family with a man that has $30k in debt with very little savings and lied to you about it? Would you say love alone is going to get us out of that situation? Love may make you strong and give you the drive and will to succeed, but sound decision making resolves the problem that got you there and ensures you don't make the same mistake again. From Dad,


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## lou198

So you believe keeping the car is acceptable in this situation. It doesn't scream to you that buying things that you cannot afford is ok. Even if you work 60 hrs a week and don't spend time with your spouse or family to pay for them?


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## Roselyn

I believe that you are making the right decision for you. I speak for myself. I would not marry anyone who is financially irresponsible. Your girlfriend is financially irresponsible. I have two brothers whose wives are financially irresponsible. The marriages are filled with drama and other types of woes because of their behaviors. Money woes can lead to all types of undesirable behaviors. 

You have a good head on your shoulders. Keep it!


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## jld

Lila said:


> If that is how she wants to handle her debt then that's on her. The point I, as well as some of the others, are trying to make is that you should not try to solve your ex's debt issues. She got herself into that mess and she should be the one to get herself out. If working 60 hours is how she's going to do it, then so be it. All you can do is a) you accept her working 2 jobs for a while to get out of debt or b) you separate from her because you don't see a way to sustain a relationship with her working so many hours. That's it. The problem is that you were trying to force her to fix things your way. That's not how it works.
> 
> Making financial decisions on her behalf, as well thought out and responsible as they might be, will never teach her financial responsibility. Had she stayed with you and gone ahead with your "suggestion" to sell the car, you would be dealing with another similar situation a few years down the road. She will not have learned her lesson.
> 
> FWIW, it's probably for the best that you won't be marrying her. You are now free to find a more financial compatible woman.


I hear what you're saying, Lila. But sometimes we can learn better habits from a partner, if we can listen to them.

I think if this gal could've listened to Lou, she could have seen a more realistic way of managing money. I don't think she was trying to see things from his pov. And if he was going to take financial responsibility for her in the future, the least she could do is consider his perspective.

It has been interesting to hear different views here. I appreciate your and Ele's speaking up.


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## EleGirl

lou198 said:


> So you believe keeping the car is acceptable in this situation. It doesn't scream to you that buying things that you cannot afford is ok. Even if you work 60 hrs a week and don't spend time with your spouse or family to pay for them?


You had an opportunity to work out work together no this. There is a very good chance that she can learn how to handle money very well. I told you about a book and a website that could help teach her and help the two of you negotiate a budget and a solution. Instead you handed her a book and told her that she has to get ride the car and do things your way.

You two might have decided to move your wedding out some until she pays down her debt. There are other solutions than the one you insist on.

If the two of you had read and worked through the material, she just might have gotten the big picture and come to a point of view closer to yours. 

But you took a different route, your way or the highway, right then and there.


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## EleGirl

jld said:


> I hear what you're saying, Lila. But sometimes we can learn better habits from a partner, if we can listen to them.
> 
> I think if this gal could've listened to Lou, she could have seen a more realistic way of managing money. I don't think she was trying to see things from his pov. And if he was going to take financial responsibility for her in the future, the least she could do is consider his perspective.


Did he listen to her? No. Did he give her an opportunity to solve HER problem herself? No.

He could have taken the route of them both working together on learning about how to manage money and how to do it as a team. 

It would not have hurt one iota to giver her say a month to read the book and website with him. And to give her a bit of time for all this to sink into her head.



jld said:


> It has been interesting to hear different views here. I appreciate your and Ele's speaking up.


I agree that if she did not learn and did not pay off her debt, then she's not a good candidate for marriage.

But the OP said that she is the love of his life. Surely he could have given her a month or two to learn and work this out.


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## jld

For me, I am really scared of financial problems. My visceral reaction was for him to run away from this woman. I think I would just not want to be with someone who did not bring financially conservative habits to the table, on their own. So I projected that.

And I am sure that limits my ability to be objective on this topic.


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## EleGirl

jld said:


> For me, I am really scared of financial problems. My visceral reaction was for him to run away from this woman. I think I would just not want to be with someone who did not bring financially conservative habits to the table, on their own. So I projected that.
> 
> And I am sure that limits my ability to be objective on this topic.


I too would not marry someone who just spent and drove up bills. 

But she is young and has never been on her own. So I think there is room for her to learn. If she can learn to be more careful with money and he can learn to be a partner and not act like her father, then things might have worked out.

Plus, it's the way he delivered the my way or the high way message.


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## lou198

I did listen Elegirl. Maybe I shouldn't have said love of my life. I felt like she was the love of my life because of who she pretended to be. She was pretending to be everything I would want in a wife. I fell in love with someone I thought was honest, trustworthy, responsible, and like minded. In all honesty I am not looking for someone to fix I want the major stuff to be out of the way or at least somewhat agreeable. Finances, intimacy, religious views, future goals, parenthood, and love of family are my non-negotiables. You think that is asking too much?


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## jld

I don't.

Are you doing okay, emotionally, with her rejection of you? You sound amazingly good for someone who just lost his girlfriend.


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## lou198

I am trying to get stronger everyday, but the way I sound is not how I feel. I feel like the woman that kept me warm every night and was here to give me love and support is gone. I feel lonely, upset, and afraid I may not find someone. I just sound strong to mask my hurt and sorrow. My family loves her, we were supposed to have a family together. I don't wanna start over, and now I am gonna wanna see financial statements and a credit report. Thanks for your advice and support, lonely days ahead for now.


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## Roselyn

Take dancing lessons. Women like men who can dance. You won't be alone for long. Successful people are attracted to people like them. Be a success and write your own ending. My best to you.


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## jld

lou198 said:


> I am trying to get stronger everyday, but the way I sound is not how I feel. I feel like the woman that kept me warm every night and was here to give me love and support is gone. I feel lonely, upset, and afraid I may not find someone. I just sound strong to mask my hurt and sorrow. My family loves her, we were supposed to have a family together. I don't wanna start over, and now I am gonna wanna see financial statements and a credit report. Thanks for your advice and support, lonely days ahead for now.


Do you want to amend your stand, and offer to work with her, like Ele suggested?


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## shalom_82

Lou, I relate to you in that when I perceive that my partner is making a decision that is hurting him, then I try to intervene and "help." 

I take the push back to be rejection of my love and to be disrespect. I'm not sure if you do that too as you haven't said it, but that's what I do.

When I do this in my marriage, my husband reacts very strongly in a way that sometimes frightens me. He feels like I am trying to bully and dominate him, when all I'm doing is trying to help him find a solution that will be beneficial to him. And of course, I have my own interests at heart too, and that of our relationship and our daughter. 

In response, he calls me self righteous. For me, it's very painful to have someone "reject" my help/love.


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## NewToHeartBreak

OP You did the right thing by yourself so just take a deep breath and move on. 

As others have said to make it work you would have had to be supportive of how she wanted to solve her problem. 60 hours/week when you don't have kids leaves plenty of time to spend together particularly if 40 of them your working anyway. 84 hour/week or one partner working away is a different story. The fact that you didn't support her doing this to me shows you really didn't want to marry her. I to can't stand attitudes of entitlement so understand why you couldn't. Chin up there are 3 billion other women in the world.


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## ButtPunch

OP

Hats off to you. I see so many codependent fixers here on TAM. You sir are refreshing. 

Never alter your principles in order to keep a woman.


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## NotLikeYou

lou198 said:


> I am trying to get stronger everyday, but the way I sound is not how I feel. I feel like the woman that kept me warm every night and was here to give me love and support is gone. I feel lonely, upset, and afraid I may not find someone. I just sound strong to mask my hurt and sorrow. My family loves her, we were supposed to have a family together. I don't wanna start over, and now *I am gonna wanna see financial statements and a credit report.* Thanks for your advice and support, lonely days ahead for now.


Ahem.

Lou, I tip my hat to you for your fiscal prudence. And you also get respect for sticking to your principles.

I'm not going to tell you to compromise those principles.

But I will tell you that being so focused and obsessed with the numbers will make you unsuitable for future potential partners.

No woman worth having is going to submit financial statements and a credit report for your inspection. I'm not saying that there are no women who will do this, just that the ones who will do it won't be worth having. 

So I have a suggestion for you.

Budget, save, and plan tightly enough to cover for you, a frugal wife, and a couple of kids. Add 20% for unforeseen costs, and see how tightly you'll have to cinch up your belt.

Then, go find a nice girl who can live frugally.

Figure on the girl bringing "other stuff" to the table, like "good cook," "great conversation," good mother," "doesn't spend thousands of dollars on jewelry," and more qualities of that nature.

If she happens to have a job and can save some money, that's icing on the cake.

Life is something that happens while we're making plans. If I found myself in your predicament, I would be worried that I was going to have an awesome plan that lead to a dreary life. I hope you don't end up there.


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## jld

NotLikeYou said:


> Ahem.
> 
> Lou, I tip my hat to you for your fiscal prudence. And you also get respect for sticking to your principles.
> 
> I'm not going to tell you to compromise those principles.
> 
> But I will tell you that being so focused and obsessed with the numbers will make you unsuitable for future potential partners.
> 
> *No woman worth having is going to submit financial statements and a credit report for your inspection. I'm not saying that there are no women who will do this, just that the ones who will do it won't be worth having. *
> 
> So I have a suggestion for you.
> 
> Budget, save, and plan tightly enough to cover for you, a frugal wife, and a couple of kids. Add 20% for unforeseen costs, and see how tightly you'll have to cinch up your belt.
> 
> Then, go find a nice girl who can live frugally.
> 
> Figure on the girl bringing "other stuff" to the table, like "good cook," "great conversation," good mother," "doesn't spend thousands of dollars on jewelry," and more qualities of that nature.
> 
> If she happens to have a job and can save some money, that's icing on the cake.
> 
> Life is something that happens while we're making plans. If I found myself in your predicament, I would be worried that I was going to have an awesome plan that lead to a dreary life. I hope you don't end up there.


He may just be speaking out of emotion here, NLY. He may back off from this. Or as my husband suggested, he should provide them to her, too. 

He felt deceived by her and was shocked she walked away. She probably did not realize the extent to which financial issues were important to him, and felt he was controlling.

*If you can't be demanding before marriage, when can you be?*

I think being as transparent as possible is the best way to find out you're with the right person. Either can walk away at any time pretty easily before marriage. It's a lot harder afterwards.


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## NotLikeYou

I certainly hope that lou is speaking in the heat of the moment.

The point I wanted to emphasize is that you can take anything too far, and I think that needing that level of financial investigation into a potential spouse is too far.

Well, let me clarify that.

It's not up to me or anyone else what lou will need for peace of mind and security in a relationship. That's for him to determine, and it's right for him irregardless of anyone else's opinion.

The problem is finding a partner who will go along with it. Because just as it may be right for lou to want to see financial documents, it's every bit as right for the women being asked to provide a full financial disclosure to not feel comfortable or right with the request.

My opinion is that, if lou sticks to his guns on this, he will be shooting himself in the foot, because I don't think many women will accede to his request.

The ones who do will be coldly focused on the bottom line. They'll want to see HIS, too, to make sure he meets their criteria of a suitable provider. They'll marry him for money, rather than love. 

Don't get me wrong- I think lou's gf did him wrong, and he did right by sticking to his guns in this case.

The financial aspects of marriage are very important to him.

Given the weight that he assigns to that aspect of things, I am of the opinion that his best bet for getting the life he wants is to plan on being the sole provider, and budget accordingly. Then he can enter a new relationship from a position of strength and confidence, and if it works out that his future spouse contributes financially, he's ahead of the game (even more than he will be by staying within budget).


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## jld

From what I've read of his posts, he does plan on being the sole provider.

I think he was pretty shocked to hear about her unexpected debt. Let's give him a few weeks to settle down. Maybe he and his girlfriend will work things out.


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## lou198

I don't think it is asking to much to review each others credit report together. I would never request something from my wife I am not willing to do myself. She can review my credit standing and report as well as I can review hers. The key here is that all debt is out in the open and we ensure that we aren't hiding huge sums of debt, private credit cards, or other financial obligations that can affect our marriage. I don't think that is asking too much. I think couples should sit down and do it together before marriage after what happened with me.


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## lou198

We have decided to date each other and see if we can figure things out. I do still really want her to rid herself of that expensive vehicle, but only time will tell. We are currently reading smart couples finish rich and attempting to not completely ruin our holiday season with our frustrations with each other. By the way Happy Holidays to all, thanks for your viewpoints.


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## luvinhim

lou, i just read this entire thread and I agree with you on some
issues. I believe you did the right thing to bring this up and let your fiance know how you felt. she needs to be accountable for her decisions. but older men who fall in love and marry young girls. well....you are getting a young immature girl who
has not lived life yet. she is going to make silly mistakes.

i did. i married when i was 23 years old and my husband expected me to become a mature mother, wife, finaicial counselor overnignt. well years of heart ache occured, because
he wanted to be my father and tell me what to do. i did not
want to be treated like a child and it ruined the beginning of our marriage. the time when we should be in honeymoon stage we were fighting for ground. He wanted an obedient wife and I wanted to be treated like an adult.

I understand that you do not want to be responsible for purchases you did not make....and you shouldn't, but she
needs to make her own decision and she needs to figure this out with a little encouragement from you.

yes, you will be the man and responsible for your family, but she is an adult and will resent you over the years.

take a break from each other, let her think about her choices and give her time to deal with some of the things on her plate.


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## MEM2020

Lou,
I love and share your philosophy but your tactics are likely to backfire with most folks. 

Let's start with what really happened. She didn't conceal the CC debt because she was afraid you'd break up with her. 

She concealed it because she wanted that car and knew you wouldn't help her buy it if you had the full picture. That's a whole different type of deceit. It values the car over core relationship trust.

That said, I don't understand why you were so afraid to ask her to fund the car via the wedding budget.

The conversation a healthy couple has goes like this:
- I need to know that going forward you won't place lifestyle choices ahead of trust. And part of me believing that you are committed to making amends, is you solving this debt/income problem. 
- You have a few options: 
1. Fund most or all of the car using the wedding budget
2. Defer the wedding until you've paid for the car
3. Accelerate this process by looking for a higher paying job
4. Some other solution that is 'real' 

You seemed to fixate on the one solution you liked. And then you played brinksmanship over that single solution. That's not smart. 

I do think you ought to end it if you cannot find a mutually agreeable solution. But it's not loving for you to dictate what the solution is. 

As a quick point of reference:
- Fund half from the wedding budget (10K)
- Fund 1/4 from her working overtime (at 20 hours a week she will earn 5K in 3-6 months)

And YOU fund the final 1/4 because your on her team. That's right. If she solves 3/4 of this you show your appreciation by being generous. 

That said - my crystal ball tells me that any reduction in wedding budget needs to be accompanied by a detailed wedding plan. If you don't do THAT, you'll be fighting over scope creep in the wedding for the 6 month lead up to your marriage. 

You may be strongly attached to the idea that she should fully fund this because it was her mistake. You'll self describe this as 'a matter of fairness'. 

But marriage is inherently unfair. You mentioned wanting children. So let's talk about the fairness of that process:
- You get to come - hard and often
- She gets morning sickness, stretch marks, and labor

Marriage has to be overall fair, but it isn't typically transactionally equal. 






lou198 said:


> We have decided to date each other and see if we can figure things out. I do still really want her to rid herself of that expensive vehicle, but only time will tell. We are currently reading smart couples finish rich and attempting to not completely ruin our holiday season with our frustrations with each other. By the way Happy Holidays to all, thanks for your viewpoints.


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## lou198

Thanks for your insight Mem11363; the complication is I can't see any validation for paying for a car that she cannot afford. Their are plenty of other vehicles that will get you to and from work that are safe reliable and economic. I don't want my fiance/spouse enslaving themselves to pay for something they don't need. It isn't logical in my opinion to buy things you cannot afford. My wife and I will not live like that. That is why I took such a hard stance. This will not be a recurring issue and my actions and principles are unwavering regarding that. I wouldn't seem like such an arse* if I would have known the truth about the financial picture from the beginning. Now it's too late and I won't budge on my perspective. My actions will not convey that I believe it is agreeable to by things outside of our budget when we cannot pay bills or invest first.


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## lou198

Also the wedding budget was going to come from her father, I didn't think it was fair to ask him for that to be applied to her debts. I also will not be buying a car for her anymore. She moved out, I am alone and have to reserve my finances for emergencies and such. Right now I am not in a good place mentally or emotionally, but life is a rollercoaster full of ups and downs. The sun does eventually come out and shine again.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

lou198 said:


> I don't intend to sound like her father. In my opinion people let love and the idea of love allow them to tolerate behavior they shouldn't. Love is not going to stop your wages from being garnished, your home from being foreclosed, or you car from being repossessed. Love doesn't stop physical/verbal abuse, cheating, or gambling issues. You either put your foot down or continue to get walked over. I will not be walked over for love or the idea of love. I feel if she loves me she will do the right thing. If not she can live with her decisions.


And I'm sure YOU and YOUR MONEY will be very happy together. If you're looking for Ms Perfect, then you're going to be alone for a long time. My husband married me "knowing" I was a spender and he was a saver. He married someone who was real and had faults, not a princess on a pedestal.


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## jacko jack

Dear Lou

My wife lied about CC debt and other debts before and after marriage, run for the hills unless you can place very tight boundaries on her spending. Spendalholics are never satisfied just one more purchase, does she refer to purhases bought together as hers. My advice would be beware of a life of debt.


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## Roselyn

MariedWifeInLove: Post your story. It would be interesting to read how you and your husband resolved your differences on your outlook about finances. Do post your age and your husband's and how long both of you have been married.


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## tripad

happy as a clam said:


> Run for the hills!!! Her little white lies, sense of  entitlement (through debt) and financial deceit will only get worse.
> 
> Besides, she LIED to you. For a long time. Do you really want to marry a LIAR???


read my other post about what my ex H and his family did to me n how it had broken up my family for my children .

you don't want that to happen to you


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## tripad

jacko jack said:


> Dear Lou
> 
> My wife lied about CC debt and other debts before and after marriage, run for the hills unless you can place very tight boundaries on her spending. Spendalholics are never satisfied just one more purchase, does she refer to purhases bought together as hers. My advice would be beware of a life of debt.


read what happened to jacko 

these big spenders while in debt have serious issues within them , it is not jus about that few thousands dollars ,

or the next few tens of thousands 

or the next few hundreds of thousands .

I think my ex H has probably childhood neglect , maybe narcissistic personality disorder 

run

find another decent lady to have children with and who has same values


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## tripad

Roselyn said:


> MariedWifeInLove: Post your story. It would be interesting to read how you and your husband resolved your differences on your outlook about finances. Do post your age and your husband's and how long both of you have been married.


I will be interested to know too .

maybe the H is posting here right now asking for solutions


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## DanaS

EleGirl said:


> Did he listen to her? No. Did he give her an opportunity to solve HER problem herself? No.
> 
> He could have taken the route of them both working together on learning about how to manage money and how to do it as a team.


But he already knows how to manage money, she doesn't, so why should it be his problem? She should be able to have enough smarts to figure it out on her own.


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## tech-novelist

Considering that financial problems are even more damaging to marriage than sexual problems, it's hard for me to imagine how anyone could fault someone for wanting to know everything about their potential spouse's financial situation before tying the knot.


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## Jeffyboy

Lying about that kind of debt is tantamount to cheating IMO. Big red flag. Very hard for people to change. Imagine how this looks if it continues 20 years down the road...do you really want to live that?


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## Woodchuck

She dosn't have a clue about managing money....My wife's niece had the choice of a home or a fancy wedding....After 18 years, she is the main breadwinner, and lives in a hovel. Her husband has probably worked 6 years total as a cable installer, and other low paying jobs. She is a paralegal and makes very little....But she had one wonderful wedding day....RED FLAG DUDE....


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## EleGirl

DanaS said:


> But he already knows how to manage money, she doesn't, so why should it be his problem? She should be able to have enough smarts to figure it out on her own.


If they stayed together, then they need to learn to handle finances together. 

She needs to learn how to handle finances. And they both need to learn to do it as a team.

In a situation like this, I'd call it team building.

But if I recall, he broke up with her so it's not an issue in this relationship anymore.


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