# Excuses Vs Reasons, what is the difference?



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I have been on a couple of threads recently and I find that what some posters will acknowledge as reasons for the affair, other posters view as excuses. So the questions are, What are reasons? What are excuses? How are they different? These are really tough questions, but I hope we can get some feedback. I think it would be of benefit to both WS and BS.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

A good example is how some WS's will say that even during their affair, they still loved their spouse. Is this valid or is it an excuse?
Another one that is talked about frequently, is the "fog". Is there any validity to this or is it an excuse to minimize the damage?


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

There is no such thing as a excuse, but there are always reasons.

The question is will those reasons aid or hurt the ability to reconcile?


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Of course there are reasons for an affair. But the excuse is the affair itself. It's an excuse to be conflict avoidance and entitlement by the WS, whereas addressing the problems in the marriage by communicating them to their partner. 

I can only speak for my situation, but my ex and I had some issues. Mostly due with me being a bit of jerk and serial flirt. Now, I know that's not the worst traits you can have in a Hubby, but I'd be lying if it wasn't a reason and excuse in her head to cheat. 

However, with that being said, cheating is never the answer. NEVER. So the affair is ALL on the WS. Problems in the marriage may be on both. But the affair is all one sided. No excuse for an affair. Ever.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

illwill said:


> There is no such thing as a excuse, but there are always reasons.
> 
> The question is will those reasons aid or hurt the ability to reconcile?


I disagree. Whenever I got caught doing something bad, I made as many excuses as I could, and so do WS's. How many times have we heard alcohol used as an excuse? Or the Mythological "fog"? There are tons of excuses.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Affairs can never be excused. Just because a wayward attempts to make them, does not make them anymore valid in reality.

I can say Santa is at my house right now and hes the one who ate the cookies, but that would not make it a reality, or valid excuse for the missing cookies i ate.

Excuses in this case are likely just lies we must tell ourself and others to justify our acts.

When all that matters is the true reason, which many betrayed spouses never really get.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

TheFlood117 said:


> Of course there are reasons for an affair. But the excuse is the affair itself. It's an excuse to be conflict avoidance and entitlement by the WS, whereas addressing the problems in the marriage by communicating them to their partner.
> 
> I can only speak for my situation, but my ex and I had some issues. Mostly due with me being a bit of jerk and serial flirt. Now, I know that's not the worst traits you can have in a Hubby, but I'd be lying if it wasn't a reason and excuse in her head to cheat.
> 
> However, with that being said, cheating is never the answer. NEVER. So the affair is ALL on the WS. Problems in the marriage may be on both. But the affair is all one sided. No excuse for an affair. Ever.


We're not talking about answers, we are talking about excuses. Such as the idea of an "exit affair". or a "revenge affair".


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## standinginthegap (Jan 16, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> I have been on a couple of threads recently and I find that what some posters will acknowledge as reasons for the affair, other posters view as excuses. So the questions are, What are reasons? What are excuses? How are they different? These are really tough questions, but I hope we can get some feedback. I think it would be of benefit to both WS and BS.


When it comes to A the WS reason is nothing more than an excuses, I think they are one in the same when A are concerned.

Ex: I cheated because you wasn't treating me the way I wanted to be treated so I found somebody who will.

While that may very well be the "reason" it is still an excuse.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> We're not talking about answers, we are talking about excuses. Such as the idea of an "exit affair". or a "revenge affair".


I don't understand. Aren't they all affairs??? 

Those aren't answers. Those are the reasons she told the therapist why she felt the way she did. I was jerk. I flirted way to much with other women and she thought I cheated years ago when she was pregnant. Those are excuses. There is NO excuse for an affair, in my opinion.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

illwill said:


> Affairs can never be excused. Just because a wayward attempts to make them, does not make them anymore valid in reality.
> 
> I can say Santa is at my house right now and hes the one who ate the cookies, but that would not make it a reality, or valid excuse for the missing cookies i ate.
> 
> ...


On the contrary, affairs can and are excused, all of the time. Also, a great many BS's Actually believe the excuses. There are many posters who believe that the "fog" exists. And excuses very rarely have anything to do with facts.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

An excuse is means for one to provide logic, whereas a reason is a means of providing justification. Simple as that.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

standinginthegap said:


> When it comes to A the WS reason is nothing more than an excuses, I think they are one in the same when A are concerned.
> 
> Ex: I cheated because you wasn't treating me the way I wanted to be treated so I found somebody who will.
> 
> While that my very well be the "reason" it is still an excuse.


Sometimes reasons and excuses are the same thing, it's just how and when you use them.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Okay, so the REASON I divorced my ex was because her affair. But was it also an excuse for said divorce???


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

TheFlood117 said:


> I don't understand. Aren't they all affairs???
> 
> Those aren't answers. Those are the reasons she told the therapist why she felt the way she did. I was jerk. I flirted way to much with other women and she thought I cheated years ago when she was pregnant. Those are excuses. There is NO excuse for an affair, in my opinion.


Yes they are, but some of them seem to be more excusable than others. There was a poster who said that he cheated on his wife, because he was going to divorce her anyway.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Pepper123 said:


> An excuse is means for one to provide logic, whereas a reason is a means of providing justification. Simple as that.


 Interesting. And I think , true.


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## standinginthegap (Jan 16, 2014)

illwill said:


> When all that matters is the true reason, which many betrayed spouses never really get.


Good point illwill, but even if the truth was to come out I don't think it would make a difference. It won't take away the heartache, hurt, pain, the many tears that have been cried. 

All in all, the truth in and of itself still would be nothing more than an reason/excuse to try and justify the A.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

TheFlood117 said:


> Okay, so the REASON I divorced my ex was because her affair. But was it also an excuse for said divorce???


No, but it might be considered an excuse for not trying to reconcile. See what I'm getting at?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

standinginthegap said:


> Good point illwill, but even if the truth was to come out I don't think it would make a difference. It won't take away the heartache, hurt, pain, the many tears that have been cried.
> 
> All in all, the truth in and of itself still would be nothing more than an reason/excuse to try and justify the A.


Not true. The truth is what you need to move past the affair, regardless of whether you R or D. And I don't believe that a WS can use the truth to justify anything, nor use it as an excuse..


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> No, but it might be considered an excuse for not trying to reconcile. See what I'm getting at?


Well yeah, naturally. But having an affair and not wanting to reconcile are completely on different ends of the spectrum.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Think about the excuses you were told by your WS after Dday. My wife told me , at least 20, on the phone after I kicked her out.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

TheFlood117 said:


> Well yeah, naturally. But having an affair and not wanting to reconcile are completely on different ends of the spectrum.


I agree, but you can use excuses for either.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> On the contrary, affairs can and are excused, all of the time. Also, a great many BS's Actually believe the excuses. There are many posters who believe that the "fog" exists. And excuses very rarely have anything to do with facts.


Just because you reconcile does not mean you excused the affair.

Excuses only work if people accept them. In that sense you are right.

If a betrayed spouse accepts them then they do become valid. But a betrayed with a clear head would see excuses for what they really are...

Unicorns. They are not real. And in the end they are moot.

This is kind of like the chicken vs the egg.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I think you are wrong, Illwill. I agree with you that for US there is no excuse, but for LOTS of people, there is.
Like my earlier example. There are many people, BS , as well as WS who believe in the "fog", and use it as a reason for all sorts of behavior. Why did I cheat? I was in the fog. Why didn't you confess? I was still foggy. We hear this all of the time, and a LOT of BS's will buy it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I should have quoted you. Sorry about that.



> Another one that is talked about frequently, is the "fog". Is there any validity to this or is it an excuse to minimize the damage?




Don't know how reputable this site is, but I've read pretty much the same thing on other sites. 

Q: Does having sex make people fall in love?
Dr. Fisher: Having sex can trigger love—probably because after orgasm, there’s a peak in dopamine activity. So watch out if you casually bed down with someone—you might unintentionally fall for them.

Q: Why does being in love feel so good?
Dr. Fisher: Because some of the most powerful brain circuits for pleasure are triggered. The main chemical involved is dopamine, which produces feelings of euphoria, energy, sleeplessness, and focused attention on your beloved. Biologically speaking, you’re experiencing something similar to a cocaine high.

Here's the site for further reading. Like I said, I won't believe this like a person would scripture, but it's pretty close to what I've read elsewhere. 

Chemistry - Love, Explained


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Like i said if the betrayed spouse accepts the excuses then they become valid. 

You gave them validity by believing.

When in reality just because you believe them that does not make them real.

The fog is a excuse many betrayed spouses need in order to reconcile. And of course waywards are gonna eat that up.

Many like myself, who divorce dont believe any excuses or the fog. 

Yet most that reconcile do.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Reason = Explanation (accepts blame) or factual logical cause for an occurrence

Ex.: A person was abused so they became an alcoholic.

Excuse = Justification (usually to avoid blame) or explanation with hope of forgiveness or understanding

Ex.: A person was abused so, it's okay if they stay drunk all the time.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

illwill said:


> Like i said if the betrayed spouse accepts the excuses then they become valid.
> 
> You gave them validity by believing.
> 
> ...


I agree with this, in the context of this site. It is true.

The, "fog", does exist, but allowing a WS to tell a BS this and letting the BS believe it is wrong. Simply because the WS must be remorseful. 

In the context of just understanding the chemical processes of the brain, yes, there is a kind of fog and it's very strong. That's why BSs are told to be so harsh. If they truly want their spouse back, they have to be. 

The danger is in how far you push a WS toward insanity. That's what's scary. Some cannot do it, but the BS probably doesn't want them back in those cases.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Been to the dictionary, have we, 2ntnuf? LOL. I agree that part of the difference is in the desire to avoid responsibility or that the act itself (adultery) is questionable. However, I also believe that the only thing"foggy" is the belief in the fog, itself. Just because there are pleasure areas in the brain, doesn't admit to it (the fog) being a valid reason, or existing in real life.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthfully, I liked the thread. It made me look things up, because I wasn't sure either. Thank you.  

I knew about the fog, but the difference between excuse and reason has always been fuzzy. Then again, I am a doormat, so I have an excuse............


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I should have quoted you. Sorry about that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, f**K freewill, f**K morality, if it feels good , do it? I call B*llsh*t. If this were true, then there wouldn't be ANY casual sex, because you would fall in love , every time you f**ked somebody.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Truthfully, I liked the thread. It made me look things up, because I wasn't sure either. Thank you.
> 
> I knew about the fog, but the difference between excuse and reason has always been fuzzy. Then again, I am a doormat, so I have an excuse............


I'm no doormat, but I didn't know , either, so perhaps I'm just a dumba**.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

The more you do, "it", the easier it is to get the high and move on to the next high, because it wears off. It doesn't last. That's why so many break up after an affair. They lose that initial, "high", from the exciting newness of it. Then, reality sets in. 

That's partly why, if a cheater cheats a few times, they want to continue. They get that dopamine high and it feels good. They have to keep getting it. It feels great. 

Think about the reactions of the WS. They sleep in another room. They don't actually sleep much. They are not talking with the BS because they are thinking about the AP. It all ties right in.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Well, at least you have an excuse.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

I do not and never will believe in the fog. 

All the fog is, is your spouse falling in love with someone, while they are married to you. Thats what those chemicals are.

They are aware of what they are doing. How else can they work so hard to cover it up?

I have rarely seen someone divorce a cheater who believes in the fog. And on this site i rarely see someone who reconciles, while not believing in it.

This is a good thread.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

illwill said:


> I do not and never will believe in the fog.
> 
> All the fog is, is your spouse falling in love with someone, while they are married to you. Thats what those chemicals are.
> 
> ...


Whoa there! If you think I'm saying the fog is a legitimate reason to have an affair and deceive a spouse, you are quite mistaken. That is not what I am saying.

They know exactly what they are doing. They are driven after the sexual encounter to desire more of the dopamine high they get from the encounter. New pathways are made in the brain that actually make them remember some of it fondly. It is possible to make new connections with the BS and renew the love of the marriage. It ain't easy, though, as you well know.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Whoa there! If you think I'm saying the fog is a legitimate reason to have an affair and deceive a spouse, you are quite mistaken. That is not what I am saying.
> 
> They know exactly what they are doing. They are driven after the sexual encounter to desire more of the dopamine high they get from the encounter. New pathways are made in the brain that actually make them remember some of it fondly. It is possible to make new connections with the BS and renew the love of the marriage. It ain't easy, though, as you well know.


No. But, i do think the fog takes away much of the accountability.

Those brain chemicals still dont have to be acted upon. We are not animals at the mercy of our desires. 

We have the ability to make moral decisions, even if our brain chemicals and pathways are going crazy.

They can control themselves, they just choose not to.

But, i could be wrong about all this.


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## Emptyshelldad (Apr 29, 2013)

I think the difference is an excuse is what the ws tells you about why they had the affair and reasons are what really caused them to have the affair. 

Ie
Excuse: you didn't give me enough attention
Reason: the ws has shaky self esteem and needs near constant validation. 

Excuse: I didn't feel emotionally supported
Reason: I look to outside sources to fulfill me emotionally and didn't share this with my hubby. 

A lot of the reasons are mismatched or misunderstood love languages. But the ws is a person whom chooses a poor of handling their needs, so the affair is their response to the stress of problem in themselves / marriage. Meaning not everyone in their situation would have reacted in the same manner. They have choices and they chose affair.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

illwill said:


> No. But, i do think the fog takes away much of the accountability.


If you mean it gives them an excuse to try and get out of blame, I agree. That's what I was saying. That's where guys like you come in pushing the BSs to stay on track and not believe it. It's best if the BSs don't let themselves get sucked into that trap. The BSs are hurt so badly, they will believe anything. The WS must take responsibility for their actions. 



illwill said:


> Those brain chemicals still dont have to be acted upon. We are not animals at the mercy of our desires.
> 
> We have the ability to make moral decisions, even if our brain chemicals and pathways are going crazy.


I agree with that. But someone addicted to coke, needs some extra help or "a harder kick in the pants"? Maybe an addict would call it hitting bottom, before they turn around?



illwill said:


> They can control themselves, they just choose not to.
> 
> But, i could be wrong about all this.


Choice is always there. I don't think you are wrong. The only way there is no choice in the absence of imminent threats of physical violence, is when a person is mentally ill or handicapped.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I have no interest in excusing Mrs Wazza's affair, therefore any statement that seems to be about lessening her accountability I don't accept. It was wrong. Nothing will change that. No excuses.

And that includes the fog. It explains a lot of what I saw, so I regard it as real, but that in no way lessens her accountability. She let herself get to the point where the fog took control. She shouldn't have.

I have put a lot of work into understanding the combination of circumstances and emotions that led to the affair, because I needed to have some idea whether it was a once only deal or likely to repeat. So I have some confidence that it will not recur, and if it does I might see it coming. But again, those reasons why it happened help me understand, but in no way excuse her actions.


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## Oldrandwisr (Jun 22, 2013)

Using the affair example in the OP, to me, excuse carries a connotation of not being fully accountable. Reason is the logical, objective cause. 

Excuse - WS gave excuse that problems in marriage caused vulnerability and weakness.

Reason - WS chose to have affair for self gratification rather than work on or end marriage first.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

An excuse is used to justify (I should be excused this behavior because ...), whereas reasons are the motivations (I felt neglected, even after I had many times asked for your attention, ...).


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

In the context of affairs, excuses are specious reasons. I think the real "reason" (driving factor or objective) for most affairs is simply "I liked/wanted the attention." Excuses (specious reasons) include the whole "I felt lonely/unappreciated/depressed" category (revenge affairs are in a class by themselves inasmuch as a pretty specific reason is behind them). Chemical dependency in the form of "the fog" is also a specious reason. At best this is an effect, not a cause.

I agree that in real affairs (including EA) the WS actually falls in love with the AP. We like to think there is a difference between the long-term "real thing" and the disorienting (foglike) infatuation of the affair, but when the WS gets "in the fog" he/she is in love, and it is completely real to them. I have no doubt whatsoever that my W was in love with her EA partner, and this has been a very difficult hurdle to overcome.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I have been on a couple of threads recently and I find that what some posters will acknowledge as reasons for the affair, other posters view as excuses. So the questions are, What are reasons? What are excuses? How are they different? These are really tough questions, but I hope we can get some feedback. I think it would be of benefit to both WS and BS.


It's the same, the reasons are the excuses.. they are also called justifications... 

You can also say 'things that make a person convince themselves that what they are about to do is totally okay and not a horrible choice'


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> A good example is how some WS's will say that even during their affair, they still loved their spouse. Is this valid or is it an excuse?
> Another one that is talked about frequently, is the "fog". Is there any validity to this or is it an excuse to minimize the damage?


"fog" is the list of excuses, reasons and justifications.. and the level to which the wayward believes these things (thickness of the fog)

Here's a list of fog builders...

My husband doesn't love me anymore...

He'll be happier if I'm happy...

Everybody is doing it...

(getting thicker)

He's probably cheating, he always mentions (x) from work...

He's very controlling, I'm a big girl I should be able to do what I want...

It was just a kiss, there's no harm in that...

(visibility is diminishing)

That felt good, if it feels so good, it can't be wrong...

My marriage has been dead for a long time anyway, my husband doesn't excite me like this new guy...

I'm in control, two guys want me and love me, I'm super awesome...

(in deep... visibility 0)


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Philat said:


> In the context of affairs, excuses are specious reasons. I think the real "reason" (driving factor or objective) for most affairs is simply "I liked/wanted the attention." Excuses (specious reasons) include the whole "I felt lonely/unappreciated/depressed" category (revenge affairs are in a class by themselves inasmuch as a pretty specific reason is behind them). Chemical dependency in the form of "the fog" is also a specious reason. At best this is an effect, not a cause.
> 
> I agree that in real affairs (including EA) the WS actually falls in love with the AP. We like to think there is a difference between the long-term "real thing" and the disorienting (foglike) infatuation of the affair, but when the WS gets "in the fog" he/she is in love, and it is completely real to them. I have no doubt whatsoever that my W was in love with her EA partner, and this has been a very difficult hurdle to overcome.


When they come out of the 'fog', that means they now realize that what they had, the 'love' was actually based on lies and bull.. They realize that the bull they were feeding the AP, was also going the other way, they were not only playing the AP, but the AP was playing them.. So love, turns to feeling used and stupid, which both of them were being. Pathetic, stupid desperate human beings, not a good base for a loving relationship.. lies and sneaking. That's why most choose to continue the self delusion until death. They'll spend a lifetime trying to convince the world (and themselves) that it was all for the best.. they made the right choices.


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## Rottdad42 (Nov 26, 2012)

Whether the excuse meets the justification, to cheat then the reasons are made moot. Regardless, if you use both terms as an equal logic. Chicken egg routine. Excuse and a reason are not found. You cheated that's it. I don't care about the rest. We will take what you are using to divorce. I want to be with one who doesn't have that distinction, and doesn't cheat period. All IMHO.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Philat said:


> In the context of affairs, excuses are specious reasons. I think the real "reason" (driving factor or objective) for most affairs is simply "I liked/wanted the attention." Excuses (specious reasons) include the whole "I felt lonely/unappreciated/depressed" category (revenge affairs are in a class by themselves inasmuch as a pretty specific reason is behind them). Chemical dependency in the form of "the fog" is also a specious reason. At best this is an effect, not a cause.
> 
> I agree that in real affairs (including EA) the WS actually falls in love with the AP. We like to think there is a difference between the long-term "real thing" and the disorienting (foglike) infatuation of the affair, but when the WS gets "in the fog" he/she is in love, and it is completely real to them. I have no doubt whatsoever that my W was in love with her EA partner, and this has been a very difficult hurdle to overcome.


In the dark years following the affair, I fell in love with someone else. I did not chose to, and when it happened I was entirely honest and honourable in my handling of it, but it was still something Mrs Wazza found hard to accept, though she accepts it as a consequence of her infidelity.

If that happens, you will understand and it may help you to forgive. But it hurts.

You have to decide whether marriage is "as long as we both shall live" or "as long as we both have mushy feelings" or whatever. The real world is not like the movies.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Wazza said:


> In the dark years following the affair, I fell in love with someone else. I did not chose to, and when it happened I was entirely honest and honourable in my handling of it, but it was still something Mrs Wazza found hard to accept, though she accepts it as a consequence of her infidelity.
> 
> If that happens, you will understand and it may help you to forgive. But it hurts.
> 
> You have to decide whether marriage is "as long as we both shall live" or "as long as we both have mushy feelings" or whatever. The real world is not like the movies.


You dont fall in love by accident. Once its clear you have feelings, how you act is your choice. Exposing yourself to someone you already have feelings for is a clear decision. 

While married, i met several women i could fall for, but i chose to stay away, so the affection would not grow. Thats what you do when you are married.

Many people do this. 

This is why i disagree that everyone can cheat. Some people see the red flags and remove themselves before they are tempted. This act is what seperates the cheaters from the faithful.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

illwill said:


> You dont fall in love by accident. Once its clear you have feelings, how you act is your choice. Exposing yourself to someone you already have feelings for is a clear decision.
> 
> While married, i met several women i could fall for, but i chose to stay away, so the affection would not grow. Thats what you do when you are married.
> 
> ...


This is because you respected your marriage, your wife, and yourself.. I also had chances to get close to attractive females from work, they come around and flirt.. I send out an "I'm happily married" vibe, and that's it.. I shut it down, waaaaaay before it turns into 'love'....

If you fall in love with someone, it's because you made a conscious effort to.. it's not an accident. It happens by spending time together, sharing intimate conversations and moments.. In the case of Wazza, it sounds like he needed it for self validation, perhaps a bit of revenge.. so he *chose *to pursue it.. His wife accepts it as a result of her infidelity, but I doubt she gave him the okay.. so at the end of the day, it's a result of his choices, not her affair..

Having said all that, I can see how he could make those choices.. and why..


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

illwill said:


> You dont fall in love by accident. Once its clear you have feelings, how you act is your choice. Exposing yourself to someone you already have feelings for is a clear decision.
> 
> While married, i met several women i could fall for, but i chose to stay away, so the affection would not grow. Thats what you do when you are married.
> 
> ...


Once I realised I had feelings I took appropriate action. But once I realised I had feelings I was already in love. 

My wife didn't take appropriate action. Her actions were decidedly inappropriate.

I think this means we agree about the underlying principles at work here.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

One man's excuse is another man's reason

A reason is a reply you use when you have time to think about your actions and formulate a plan to get out of it.

An excuse is when don't have time or a plan when you reply.


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## adriana (Dec 21, 2013)

illwill said:


> I do not and never will believe in the fog.
> 
> All the fog is, is your spouse falling in love with someone, while they are married to you. Thats what those chemicals are.
> 
> ...





illwill said:


> But, i do think the fog takes away much of the accountability.
> 
> Those brain chemicals still dont have to be acted upon. We are not animals at the mercy of our desires.
> 
> ...



:iagree: YES and YES!

I have hard time with wrapping my head around concepts like affair fog or compartmentalization. I get an impression that they are just convenient and comforting excuses to make accepting infidelity a bit easier for both; WSs and BSs.

Affair fog? I can comprehend the trill of having an affair, the excitement of meeting someone new. But, those people still function in daily life, go to work, make decisions, and what is the most important, they know that they have to deceive their spouses. It isn't that they don't know what they are doing. 

Compartmentalization? Oh really? A married mother is still a married mother even when she is on a hot rendezvous with her lover. She still remembers birth dates of her children. A cheating, married father, even in the heat of passion with OW, still remembers his children's names and weather on his wedding day. 

Cheaters aren't becoming someone else when they cheat. They just choose to cheat. That's all!


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## adriana (Dec 21, 2013)

illwill said:


> You dont fall in love by accident. Once its clear you have feelings, how you act is your choice. Exposing yourself to someone you already have feelings for is a clear decision.
> 
> While married, i met several women i could fall for, but i chose to stay away, so the affection would not grow. Thats what you do when you are married.
> 
> ...



:iagree: Exactly! I get hit on wherever I go and never cheated on anyone. Cheating is a choice.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

adriana said:


> :iagree: YES and YES!
> 
> I have hard time with wrapping my head around concepts like affair fog or compartmentalization. I get an impression that they are just convenient and comforting excuses to make accepting infidelity a bit easier for both; WSs and BSs.
> 
> ...


Exactly.

There is a guy at my job, who has had and been busted in several affairs. I asked "How the he!! are you still married?". 

He replied, with a grin "The fog is the best thing since sliced bread".


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> On the contrary, affairs can and are excused, all of the time. Also, a great many BS's Actually believe the excuses. There are many posters who believe that the "fog" exists. And excuses very rarely have anything to do with facts.


The "fog" does exist. It is a very real hormonal condition that happens when someone "falls in love." In actuality it is not love but infatuation but it still triggers those biochemical responses in the brain that do indeed result in the "fog." That said, the fog is still NOT an excuse. It may explain why someone is unreasonable or unwilling to acknowledge things. But we as humans have control over our emotions WHEN WE WANT TO. The question is not does the fog exist. The question is why did the WS choose to live in the fog rather than see the situation for what it truly was.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

illwill said:


> This is why i disagree that everyone can cheat. Some people see the red flags and remove themselves before they are tempted. This act is what seperates the cheaters from the faithful.


Illwill, I agree in almost all respects, but I also think that everyone in fact CAN cheat because no one is infallible. That is, there can always come that perfect storm of circumstances in which the otherwise faithful partner, who in all other cases was clear-headed about the red flags and removing themselves, for whatever reason does not.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

I see the "fog" as the state of mind the cheater is in that causes him or her to demonize the BS and re-write marital history in order for the cheater to justify having the affair. At the same time, the cheater also places the AP on a pedestal, and enjoys all the flattery from the AP. 

IMHO, the difference between 'excuses' and 'reasons' is THE UNDERLYING TRUTH. No matter what excuse the WS uses to have the affair, the TRUTH is, that the WS was acting selfishly...lacked self-control...felt entitled and allowed his/ego to control HIM/HER instead of the other way around. 

Another difference between excuses and reasons is that _excuses_ put the onus on the BS while _reasons_ put the onus (and responsibility) on the WS. 

Example: Excuse: "I had the affair because *YOU* weren't giving me enough attention!"
Example: Reason: "I had the affair because *I *was selfish" 

Good subject! :smthumbup:

Vega


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

love=pain said:


> One man's excuse is another man's reason
> 
> A reason is a reply you use when you have time to think about your actions and formulate a plan to get out of it.
> 
> An excuse is when don't have time or a plan when you reply.



I agree. It seems to me that a reason becomes a excuse when the person on the receiving end doesn't think it's good enough, so it then becomes an excuse. In that sense it's completely subjective; I think the difference really lies in the intent of the giver of said reason/excuse. If it's an honest explanation with the intent of providing understanding it's a reason; if it's simply to shut you up or avoid responsibility it's an excuse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrHappyHat (Oct 24, 2012)

An excuse is a reason that removes culpability (blame) for the act.

I'm in alignment with the Dan Savage model for semi-condoned cheating: cheating is only excusable when it's the *LEAST WORST OPTION*.

I could see myself having internally valid reasons for cheating, but they would not be excusable.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Philat said:


> Illwill, I agree in almost all respects, but I also think that everyone in fact CAN cheat because no one is infallible. That is, there can always come that perfect storm of circumstances in which the otherwise faithful partner, who in all other cases was clear-headed about the red flags and removing themselves, for whatever reason does not.


I think people that don't cheat, are aware of this, that it can happen to anyone, and that's why they fear it and respect it and shut it down early, so they never get to the part of the program where this becomes just another excuse.. "couldn't help it, I'm human.. we're not infallible, it happens..." So really, it can't happen to them quite as easily as others, because of the awareness that boys like girls, and they can get close to each other if they allow it... When cheaters get caught, they pretend they didn't know that, they fell in love by accident.. "it just happened".. bull crap... You allowed it to happen, you chose for it to happen. You didn't remove yourself from the situation, take it as disrespect instead of as being hit on etc.. 

I've always done it to protect myself from giving into my urges, and hating myself for giving in to temptations.. not really for my wife, or children, but for selfish reasons.. for me, to keep myself safe.. *my *marriage and family safe, because they are important to *me*...


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> The more you do, "it", the easier it is to get the high and move on to the next high, because it wears off. It doesn't last. That's why so many break up after an affair. They lose that initial, "high", from the exciting newness of it. Then, reality sets in.
> 
> That's partly why, if a cheater cheats a few times, they want to continue. They get that dopamine high and it feels good. They have to keep getting it. It feels great.
> 
> Think about the reactions of the WS. They sleep in another room. They don't actually sleep much. They are not talking with the BS because they are thinking about the AP. It all ties right in.


The problem with the "fog" explanation and your DR"s dopamine theory is , to my mind , 4-fold. 1. Affair sex is rarely casual, especially for women. The emotional quotient is far more important than the f**king. In the vast majority of cases. 2. The comparison between adultery and addiction. An addict cannot control his behavior, and usually will not stop until he either dies or some combination of circumstances forces him to quit, He/she will always be seeking bigger and better highs, more and more often. Statistics prove that those persons who have affairs, rarely repeat, usually don't do it as often, and for shorter duration. (In this I think that the DR. is confusing affair sex with sex addiction) 3. Rarely do WS's really enjoy the affair. Sometimes they will say that they need it, sometimes they say that they have fallen in love with their AP, but it is almost universally not a pleasant walk in the park. 4. The amount of rational thinking and planning involved in conducting the affair and preventing discovery. People who are in some kind of soporific state ( fog) , simply can't do this with any degree of success.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Philat said:


> Illwill, I agree in almost all respects, but I also think that everyone in fact CAN cheat because no one is infallible. That is, there can always come that perfect storm of circumstances in which the otherwise faithful partner, who in all other cases was clear-headed about the red flags and removing themselves, for whatever reason does not.


Maybe. I dont like blanket statements. So, I can see how it could happen. But frankly, for the most part, its another thing cheaters and betrayed spouses say to comfort themselves.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> The problem with the "fog" explanation and your DR"s dopamine theory is , to my mind , 4-fold. 1. Affair sex is rarely casual, especially for women. The emotional quotient is far more important than the f**king. In the vast majority of cases. 2. The comparison between adultery and addiction. An addict cannot control his behavior, and usually will not stop until he either dies or some combination of circumstances forces him to quit, He/she will always be seeking bigger and better highs, more and more often. Statistics prove that those persons who have affairs, rarely repeat, usually don't do it as often, and for shorter duration. (In this I think that the DR. is confusing affair sex with sex addiction) 3. Rarely do WS's really enjoy the affair. Sometimes they will say that they need it, sometimes they say that they have fallen in love with their AP, but it is almost universally not a pleasant walk in the park. 4. The amount of rational thinking and planning involved in conducting the affair and preventing discovery. People who are in some kind of soporific state ( fog) , simply can't do this with any degree of success.


Once more, for the cheap seats. The fog is a bunch of bull sh!t.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Rookie4 said:


> I have been on a couple of threads recently and I find that what some posters will acknowledge as reasons for the affair, other posters view as excuses. So the questions are, What are reasons? What are excuses? How are they different? These are really tough questions, but I hope we can get some feedback. I think it would be of benefit to both WS and BS.


Rookie, I think an *excuse *is an attempt to defend or justify so that you're not "at fault" -- whereas a *reason *is a cause or explanation for an action. Obviously when it comes to affairs, there is no righteous reason. Nonetheless, Loyal Spouses often (and I mean 99.99% of the time) ask "WHY!? WHY did you you do that?" So both Loyals and Disloyals want to know a reason why the affair occurred.

Personally I think the difference here is one of attitude. When a Disloyal says things like "I had the affair because my spouse wasn't giving me attention or affection, and OP did" there's no personal responsibility in that. There's no deep, personal introspection indicating that the Disloyal looked into their own soul to discover their weakness. It's blame...and that would be an excuse. 

On the other hand, when a Disloyal looks at the events leading up to the affair, says things like "Looking back I realize that when XYZ occurred, I felt rejected and hurt, and I carried that resentment with me, and then when ZYX happened it was like a heart killer for me. But now I know that the way you respond to XYZ is due to your personality type and I know to give you some time for the shock to wear off...." I'd say that's closer to reasons. There's someone who is looking at themselves, identifying things that occurred and where their own reaction or assumption went wrong and what they learned and what they can do differently now. 

Finally, this is my own humble opinion of "the fog." No I don't believe it is an actual addiction. No I don't believe it is a valid excuse or reason. But it is a darn good ANALOGY that can help some Loyal Spouse kind of get a glimpse of what it's like. I believe there is some scientific basis to the brain chemistry of infatuation being like an amphetamine rush, and the analogy is a good image of how a person who has been honest and loyal their whole life can suddenly become someone they're not. I think most Loyals wonder "How can that person look like my spouse and be so entirely different? It's like an alien body snatcher!" The fog isn't meant to be either a reason or an excuse--it's meant as an image to help Loyals understand, in the same way that the puzzle and missing pieces is meant as an image for Disloyals to understand why Loyals want and may NEED to know all the details! 

_[In case you aren't familiar with that puzzle analogy, the Disloyal has a puzzle and their affair is the image on the puzzle. They have all the pieces and they see the image, but they don't like the image so they break up the puzzle and then won't give the Loyal any pieces. When the Loyal does get some pieces, it's like the edge pieces...they still can't see the image clearly. And if the Disloyal just gives them a piece here and a piece there...they STILL can't see the image! So the Disloyal has to give the Loyal ALL of the pieces and then the Loyal can put together as much of the image as they need to see. Some want the whole entire image; some want to know what was in the image and once they know, they don't continue filling in every piece--it's enough to know it was adultery.]_

So in conclusion, using "I was in the fog" as an excuse is bull-oney. But the analogy of "the fog" can help a Loyal understand how a person can be one way for a long time and then, like an addict, become so different and even do things to hurt their own loved ones, like an addict. We've all known someone who was a great guy or great gal, and then they got hooked on drugs or became a drunk, and they ended up gradually sliding downhill until they harmed their own families. Thus, it's not a reason (or an excuse) but it does help people say "Oh! It's kind of like that...."


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> The problem with the "fog" explanation and your DR"s dopamine theory is , to my mind , 4-fold. 1. Affair sex is rarely casual, especially for women. The emotional quotient is far more important than the f**king. In the vast majority of cases. 2. The comparison between adultery and addiction. An addict cannot control his behavior, and usually will not stop until he either dies or some combination of circumstances forces him to quit, He/she will always be seeking bigger and better highs, more and more often. Statistics prove that those persons who have affairs, rarely repeat, usually don't do it as often, and for shorter duration. (In this I think that the DR. is confusing affair sex with sex addiction) 3. Rarely do WS's really enjoy the affair. Sometimes they will say that they need it, sometimes they say that they have fallen in love with their AP, but it is almost universally not a pleasant walk in the park. 4. The amount of rational thinking and planning involved in conducting the affair and preventing discovery. People who are in some kind of soporific state ( fog) , simply can't do this with any degree of success.


You're equating the "fog" of the dopamine with incoherence. That's mistaken. The WS is not in any way incoherent. They are energized and feel great from the fog of the dopamine. Neural pathways, new ones, connecting to new memories about someone other than their spouse produce small amounts of this dopamine long after the initial sexual encounter, reinforcing those good feelings about the sex with the AP. 

Remember, the article related the high from the dopamine to cocaine, which is an "upper", not a downer like a sleepiing pill or a pain killer. There is a difference. 

Oh, it's real, but it's not what you understand it to be.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Emptyshelldad said:


> I think the difference is an excuse is what the ws tells you about why they had the affair and reasons are what really caused them to have the affair.
> 
> Ie
> Excuse: you didn't give me enough attention
> ...


I like this one a lot. First comes the excuse. That should be followed up with why that might be a valid excuse... the reasons it might be true. Some of those will be excuses too. So you continue to ask why that mattered. And you keep digging deeper and deeper until you find the deep flaw inside that set them down a path were this ‘solved’ some internal riddle for them.

Once there, you can interrupt that cycle that starts them seeking a solution and give them tools to find those answers in a much healthier way.

You need something to ‘fix’ to secure trust and security again. Not just things to avoid like tequilla shots and flirting. Dig, dig, dig...


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## DarkHoly (Dec 18, 2012)

The difference is contingent upon how gullible you are.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

DarkHoly said:


> The difference is contingent upon how gullible you are.


This is only the case if you don't understand the way the brain functions. 

So, who is the gullible one?

Remember, it's never a reason, just an excuse. Now, go back and read what the difference is or you'll be more confused.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Pepper123 said:


> An excuse is means for one to provide logic, whereas a reason is a means of providing justification. Simple as that.


This is all just semantics.

There are is no reason or excuse or justification for cheating.

There is no theory, argument, or circumstance under which infidelity is a constructive response to what may very well be legitimate complaints.

None. SO there is no point in the semantic debate either.

My spouse won't talk to me... So... Cheating is OK? NO
My spouse won't have sex with me... So... Cheating is OK? NO
My spouse stopped pursuing me... So... Cheating is OK? NO
My spouse is old and miserable... So... Cheating is OK? NO
My spouse cheated on me... So... Cheating is OK? NO

None of this flies... sorry.

It's the same as alcohol :

My spouse won't talk to me... So... Drinking to Excess is OK? NO
My spouse won't have sex with me... So... Drinking to Excessis OK? NO
My spouse stopped pursuing me... So... Drinking to Excessis OK? NO
My spouse is old and miserable... So... Drinking to Excessis OK? NO
My spouse cheated on me... So... Drinking to Excessis OK? NO

Same thing.

I really don't see the point in debating about all this reasons, justifications, excuses.. it's all BS.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

To me there is no difference. A "reason" for an affair is an "excuse". The WS's do try to spin it though. They call it a reason and not an excuse as a way to slip that blame shifting in there, or an attempt to mitigate the damage of the action.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> This is all just semantics.
> 
> There are is no reason or excuse or justification for cheating.
> 
> ...


I was actually being facetious -- I agree there is no reason, justification, excuse, etc. ever. At the end of the day, they are all simply mechanisms for making someone feel less culpable. I believe around these parts we usually refer to that as blameshifting.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

vellocet said:


> To me there is no difference. A "reason" for an affair is an "excuse". The WS's do try to spin it though. They call it a reason and not an excuse as a way to slip that blame shifting in there, or an attempt to mitigate the damage of the action.


People who cheat can and often do have feelings at the time they choose to cheat.

That's fine, and it's healthy to discuss that.

But associating that in any way with the choice to cheat is a big NO NO.

I was feeling sad... SO I cheated = NO

I was feeling sad. YES, that's fine

I was feeling lonely... SO I cheated = NO

I was feeling lonely. YES, that's fine.

If you allow any attempt to associate how the wayward felt when they made a conscious choice to cheat you are allowing them to dismiss, trivialize, or deflect their behavior.

You can't associate their choice, with their feelings. That's the point where the human mind takes action. That's the point they own, no excuses, no explanations, no stories.

Honestly, there is NO explanation for cheating. It's a bad choice and that's all they an say.

Anything else is deflection, trivializing, or dismissive


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> People who cheat can and often do have feelings at the time they choose to cheat.
> 
> That's fine, and it's healthy to discuss that.
> 
> ...


I think there were several other members who stated this same thing.

I agree that there is no reason or excuse that can justify the affair. 

But, the, "fog", of the brain chemicals are what help to make it so difficult to get the WS away from the AP. 

Justifying the affair with reason or excuse is wrong. 

It was a decision, no, "ands, ifs, or buts" about it. 

It's a shame when there are so many different ideas because it confuses the BS and makes their life more miserable.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> People who cheat can and often do have feelings at the time they choose to cheat.
> 
> That's fine, and it's healthy to discuss that.
> 
> ...


Problem is, you leave off the "SO I cheated" part, it doesn't change the fact that its implied.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Problem is, you leave off the "SO I cheated" part, it doesn't change the fact that its implied.


Yup, and that's where the dialog starts.

_Promiscuity is an illegitimate response to what may very well be legitimate complaints.
_


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## Csquare (Jan 14, 2014)

Okay. So cheating is entirely the fault of the WS. We establish that there is no excuse, no reason, no justification for the behavior. Period.

But, does that help the BS heal? Where does s/he go from here?

This argument is akin to "Rape victims are *never* to be blamed for the rape."

I agree the crime is committed by the rapist. However, did the victim put herself in an environment making herself vulnerable to rape? Did she drink 10 shots of vodka, pass out, then wake up to find that she'd been molested? Not her fault she was raped, but she did not protect herself as she could have.

Sometimes, there's nothing she could have done differently. Went to bed, locked her door and windows, someone breaks in and rapes her. But, even them, could she have bought a weapon and learned how to use it?

Sometimes, there is nothing a BS can do to prevent an A. (He's a loving, attentive H and father, good provider, listens to W's grievances and addresses them...). She cheats anyway - maybe there is a fundamental defect in her. But, even so, didn't BS know her character and married her anyway?

Usually, though, BS contributes to cracks in marriage. He can learn from that and grow as a human being - even if he chooses not to R. I would think that would be a far more empowering approach.

The only person you can change is yourself.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I agree that there is no reason or excuse that can justify the affair.
> 
> But, the, "fog", of the brain chemicals are what help to make it so difficult to get the WS away from the AP.


This mythological "fog" does not roll in until AFTER the line's been crossed and choices have been made.

That's how you know you are crossing the line, you can feel the fog rolling in.

Sorry, fog doesn't fly either. That's like blaming your drunkenness for drinking too much.

At some point in the story sobriety was in control, and that is when it all starts.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Csquare said:


> Okay. So cheating is entirely the fault of the WS. We establish that there is no excuse, no reason, no justification for the behavior. Period.


And the affair partner. They both cheat. Both 50-50.

The point is, no blaming the betrayed spouse OR the marriage.

Its the two people in the bed that choose to cheat, not the betrayed spouse who isnt' even there. Nor is it the "marriage" at fault either. Cheating is done by cheaters.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> _Promiscuity is an illegitimate response to what may very well be legitimate complaints.
> _


I like this.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Yup, and that's where the dialog starts.
> 
> _Promiscuity is an illegitimate response to what may very well be legitimate complaints.
> _


I like that line.

And get it. A gf of mine can talk to me about problems in the relationship and I would listen and put in good work if I have feelings for her or love her.

But once she cheats, that which she could have talked to me about now became irrelevant.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Csquare said:


> This argument is akin to "Rape victims are *never* to be blamed for the rape."


I really don't think that's even a close analogy sorry.

Rape is an act of violence with two people, not an act of sexual deception with two conspirators and one unknowing victim.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> This mythological "fog" does not roll in until AFTER the line's been crossed and choices have been made.
> 
> That's how you know you are crossing the line, you can feel the fog rolling in.
> 
> ...


Explain. This makes little sense if you read my post. No, seriously, read it this time. Don't just comment from anger.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> And the affair partner. They both cheat. Both 50-50.
> 
> The point is, no blaming the betrayed spouse OR the marriage.
> 
> Its the two people in the bed that choose to cheat, not the betrayed spouse who isnt' even there. Nor is it the "marriage" at fault either. Cheating is done by cheaters.


The marriage being at fault is such backwards thinking... you weren't nice to me, so I snuck behind your back, and f'd someone else, told them I loved them, lied to you, made you miserable, played mind games with you, made the AP happy, they knew what was going on.... 

If marriage problems are measured on a scale of 1-10, then having an affair to solve those problems, is an 11...


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

vellocet said:


> But once she cheats, that which should could have talked to me about become irrelevant.


Yup, once the spouse stops communicating and starts lying, you have a whole other dynamic going on.

Once the lying starts 

Marriage --> Confidence game

No more husband and wife

Husband + Wife --> Hustler + Hustled

Sad but true...

It's a delicate line, but once you cross it... all those complaints about not contributing to the marriage are overshadowed and amount to nothing.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> I really don't think that's even a close analogy sorry.
> 
> Rape is an act of violence with two people, not an act of sexual deception with two conspirators and one unknowing victim.


I agree the rape thing is a reach.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I'm a former wayward and the reasons that a lot of the BS's on the CWI board were told boggle my mind. I can't speak for all WS's but I think a lot of them feel obligated to come up with a better reason for why they cheated then the truth. Especially the women WS's. 

I guess it just sounds better to say I am "unfulfilled" or even "I don't know". Instead of just admitting you are selfish and that to be honest you thought you could get away with it. IMO waywards that give complicated reasons and shift blame aren't being honest with themselves or their spouses and aren't ready for reconciliation.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

russell28 said:


> If marriage problems are measured on a scale of 1-10, then having an affair to solve those problems, is an 11...


Cheating is an individual problem, not a martial problem.

You don't blame the course cirriculum, the teacher, or the other students when you cheat on an exam do you?

Cheating is a failure at the individual level. Cheating has nothing to do with marriage, it's a character flaw.

Blaming the marriage for your infidelity is akin to blaming your marriage for your gambling problems/drinking problems.

It's a ridiculous suggestion.

Promiscuous behavior is an individual problem. An act that individuals choose when they cant' cope with the stresses of life constructively.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Yup, once the spouse stops communicating and starts lying, you have a whole other dynamic going on.
> 
> Once the lying starts
> 
> ...


So true... 

Any problems you had before the affair, are tiny compared to the problems created by the choice to have an affair, and the affair itself.. Having an affair will not solve your marriage problems, there is a very good chance it will destroy your marriage though.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Cheating is an individual problem, not a martial problem.
> 
> You don't blame the course cirriculum, the teacher, or the other students when you cheat on an exam do you?
> 
> ...


It might not be a marital problem, but it sure does cause problems for the marriage.. much bigger ones than the ones used as 'reasons' to cheat...


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## adriana (Dec 21, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I'm a former wayward and the reasons that a lot of the BS's on the CWI board were told boggle my mind. I can't speak for all WS's but I think a lot of them feel obligated to come up with a better reason for why they cheated then the truth. Especially the women WS's.
> 
> I guess it just sounds better to say I am "unfulfilled" or even "I don't know". Instead of just admitting you are selfish and that to be honest you thought you could get away with it. IMO waywards that give complicated reasons and shift blame aren't being honest with themselves or their spouses and aren't ready for reconciliation.


:iagree: Exactly! Why try to delude one another when the truth is quite simple and makes perfect sense?


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

russell28 said:


> It might not be a marital problem, but it sure does cause problems for the marriage.. much bigger ones than the ones used as 'reasons' to cheat...


So does 

a. alcoholism
b. compulsive gambling
c. compulsive shopping
d. cocaine addiction
e. porn addiction
f. violence
g. promiscuity/infidelity <-- I put it right here, this is where this problem belongs

These are destructive strategies people foolishly use to get through a day. They are short run solutions that create long term problems.

They are in effect not solutions at all, but coping mechanisms for the individual.

Once you pick up one of these guys, you aren't working in a marriage anymore, and can't blame the marriage for the mess that you create either.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

There may be reasons why an affair occurs but those reasons HAVE to point inward otherwise they are in effect excuses.

My spouse wasn't paying enough attention to me.

The next thought should be why did that lead to me having an affair? Were there no other ways I could have addressed that problem?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

bfree said:


> There may be reasons why an affair occurs but those reasons HAVE to point inward otherwise they are in effect excuses.
> 
> My spouse wasn't paying enough attention to me.
> 
> The next thought should be why did that lead to me having an affair? Were there no other ways I could have addressed that problem?


There are reasons for a bad marriage. 

The affair was a decision to stop loving the BS and love the AP. 

There is no excuse that can justify, whether it be the fog or anything else. 

However, simplifying the complicated scientific studies down to there is no excuse, is much easier for most, as evidenced here.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> And the affair partner. They both cheat. Both 50-50.
> 
> The point is, no blaming the betrayed spouse OR the marriage...


...OR the weather, OR your "star sign" OR your lousy childhood, OR 'stress', OR your job, OR the dog, OR even the AP! 

Cheating is a _decision_. It's a decision that's made between (at least) two people. One person can not cheat by themselves. They need a willing _partner_ to do so. 

Vega


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I'm a former wayward and the reasons that a lot of the BS's on the CWI board were told boggle my mind. I can't speak for all WS's but I think a lot of them feel obligated to come up with a better reason for why they cheated then the truth. Especially the women WS's.
> 
> I guess it just sounds better to say I am "unfulfilled" or even "I don't know". Instead of just admitting you are selfish and that to be honest you thought you could get away with it. IMO waywards that give complicated reasons and shift blame aren't being honest with themselves or their spouses and aren't ready for reconciliation.


I think my wife didn't know. It took a while to have any sort of sensible discussion about why, but when we did her initial excuse was post natal depression. I see it as being more complex than that, a perfect storm of circumstances, and yes, part of it was down to personality defects in her. Working all this out remains an ongoing journey.

As a man I can never totally underatand the post natal depression thing, but we can address that by not having any more kids 

I think you have raised an important point. To me, one of the key reasons I could reconcile is that I know my wife to be generally decent and honourable, and for what she did during the affair to be out of character. To be honest, if her moral compass was as simple as "what can I get away with" I would divorce immediately.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

adriana said:


> Why try to delude one another when the truth is quite simple and makes perfect sense?


Because they're not ready to give up the way their AP sees them (and the way they want to see themselves) as this awesome, terrific, wonderful, outstanding, stupendous, mesmerizing, amazing human being instead of the selfish, self-absorbed, self-centered, egotistical, narcissistic, uncaring, insensitive, cruel, cold, inhumane piece of dog sh it that they are! 

Vega


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Like everyone here I am intimately acquainted with that chemical rush when the feeling of attraction is returned. Not my desire but the knowledge that I am desired. It has been a long time since I have felt this but I know what it is like. 

My WS felt this when she hooked up with the snake. The rush happened well before the physical. Both of them tried to write it off (minimise) after the event but the facts speak for themselves. An EA was well underway before the PA (the pinnacle of the chemical rush).

I only give credence to the term "FOG" in the sense that it is a slang word that describes the fact that the cheaters fell for each other. They fell in love/lust. The "FOG" might explain a level of recklessness or poor decision making but it is not an excuse. You have to accept responsibility for your decisions. 

IMO the myriad of excuses from my WS were just a list of the resentments she had built up against me over the years. Depending on the dynamics of any given argument this list might be added to and voiced with greater conviction. But it is all a smokescreen.

It is justification and entitlement equal in magnitude to the true state of your relationship. The fallout of an affair is in fact a measure of the health of your relationship.

Reasons and excuses are the window dressing covering up much deeper issues which have never been dealt with.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

russell28 said:


> So true...
> 
> Any problems you had before the affair, are tiny compared to the problems created by the choice to have an affair, and the affair itself.. Having an affair will not solve your marriage problems, there is a very good chance it will destroy your marriage though.


Spot on. We had massive problems which we both let roll on. She had an affair. After DDay she did what many cheaters do, she vowed unwavering love etc etc etc. I said - "If we had so many problems before, how are we better off now?".


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Horizon said:


> Like everyone here I am intimately acquainted with that chemical rush when the feeling of attraction is returned. Not my desire but the knowledge that I am desired. It has been a long time since I have felt this but I know what it is like.
> 
> My WS felt this when she hooked up with the snake. The rush happened well before the physical. Both of them tried to write it off (minimise) after the event but the facts speak for themselves. An EA was well underway before the PA (the pinnacle of the chemical rush).
> 
> ...


Ha, imagine if everyone that committed a crime was just excused because they were in the fog.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Ha, imagine if everyone that committed a crime was just excused because they were in the fog.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here in NSW Parliament have just introduced the "One punch" Law. Scumbags we out and about on the drink and "Kinghitting" (Coward punching) any innocent punter in the street. The scumbags have been getting soft sentences for being off their chops on drink or drugs (Their "FOG"). No more slaps on the wrist - though I'm sure those weasel lawyers are pulling the legislation apart as we speak.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I think my wife didn't know. It took a while to have any sort of sensible discussion about why, but when we did her initial excuse was post natal depression. I see it as being more complex than that, a perfect storm of circumstances, and yes, part of it was down to personality defects in her. Working all this out remains an ongoing journey.
> 
> As a man I can never totally underatand the post natal depression thing, but we can address that by not having any more kids
> 
> I think you have raised an important point. To me, one of the key reasons I could reconcile is that I know my wife to be generally decent and honourable, and for what she did during the affair to be out of character. To be honest, if her moral compass was as simple as "what can I get away with" I would divorce immediately.


If someone does something it is in thier character. It was always there, and will always be there. The only question is when, and if, they will act upon it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

illwill said:


> If someone does something it is in thier character. It was always there, and will always be there. The only question is when, and if, they will act upon it.


Yes. But there is such a thing as typical behaviour and out of character behaviour.

My wife still has all the flaws that caused the affair. But she has a better idea of when they can dangerous and how to manage them.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Wazza said:


> Yes. But there is such a thing as typical behaviour and out of character behaviour.
> 
> My wife still has all the flaws that caused the affair. But she has a better idea of when they can dangerous and how to manage them.


Yep... Just turn the worm. As the Betrayed, you will exhibit signs of PTSD. That means thing down the line will trigger you giving you a warped perception and emotional ride based on that past tickling your neurons. Because you know this, and those signs of a trigger, you can recognize it and deal with it.

Imagine if you didn't know and just got that emotional rush. You might easily misplace that anxiety and frustration as some sort of intuition that your wife is out to get you again! At which point you start doing things that will pretty much insure she'll "want to get you" before it passes.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Racer said:


> Yep... Just turn the worm. As the Betrayed, you will exhibit signs of PTSD. That means thing down the line will trigger you giving you a warped perception and emotional ride based on that past tickling your neurons. Because you know this, and those signs of a trigger, you can recognize it and deal with it.
> 
> Imagine if you didn't know and just got that emotional rush. You might easily misplace that anxiety and frustration as some sort of intuition that your wife is out to get you again! At which point you start doing things that will pretty much insure she'll "want to get you" before it passes.



Lol...wish that weren't so true.

It's easy for me...24 years out now. I feel for those of you for whom the betrayal is recent. I have not forgotten how that felt.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Wazza said:


> Lol...wish that weren't so true.
> 
> It's easy for me...24 years out now. I feel for those of you for whom the betrayal is recent. I have not forgotten how that felt.


yep.. but you still have to be somewhat careful. My WW's reason started long before me; A rape. When our son was molested, it triggered that old trauma. Her dumb councelor didn't help... sure she helped her work out the molestation. But she didn't help with those old hurts of being helpless and out of control that stayed. 

So she had all that rage, anger and frustration. At that point, she started seeking reasons and painted a target on my forehead. Nothing I did or worked on would let those feelings go for her since she was insisting I and our relationship was the source of this misery inside and I was insisting I wasn't doing anything wrong. 

That was the start; That is when she went looking for all those excuses for why she felt like she did and stuck on those blinders so she'd only look my way. She sought out reasons she should be angry with me... When that's all you are willing to see, that is all you will find particularly if you magnify it all through a microscope. Nice self-fulfilling prophesy of creating a bad marriage just to prove it exists. And all that was a few years before the adultery.

Dig down on the excuses, and you might just find some very old bodies buried down there and forgotten.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Cheating is an individual problem, not a martial problem.
> 
> You don't blame the course cirriculum, the teacher, or the other students when you cheat on an exam do you?
> 
> ...


From the film When Harry Met Sally (quoted from memory):

Bruno Kirby: Infidelity does not destroy a marriage. It's only a symptom that something else is wrong.

Billy Crystal: Oh yeah? Well, that symptom is fvcking my wife!


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

bfree said:


> There may be reasons why an affair occurs but those reasons HAVE to point inward otherwise they are in effect excuses.
> 
> My spouse wasn't paying enough attention to me.
> 
> The next thought should be why did that lead to me having an affair? Were there no other ways I could have addressed that problem?


THIS. This is what I am always trying to say when I talk about this.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I have been on a couple of threads recently and I find that what some posters will acknowledge as reasons for the affair, other posters view as excuses. So the questions are, What are reasons? What are excuses? How are they different? These are really tough questions, but I hope we can get some feedback. I think it would be of benefit to both WS and BS.


I view excuses more like misdirections and not the real why or "reason". When I talk about why I cheated, I am more talking about what was going on in my head. The reasons are internal. The state of the relationship factored in, but only because it was something that had an effect on me and on my world - I am talking about me and my processes and problems. Never do I mean that my partner "made" me or that it was somehow her fault. More just trying to explain what things inside of me looked like at that time, I guess, and where and why I was cracking. That is, again, about my vulnerabilities and flaws. 



Pepper123 said:


> An excuse is means for one to provide logic, whereas a reason is a means of providing justification. Simple as that.


I see this as the reverse - that an excuse is a means of providing justification, and a reason is a means of providing logic.



Rookie4 said:


> A good example is how some WS's will say that even during their affair, they still loved their spouse. Is this valid or is it an excuse?
> Another one that is talked about frequently, is the "fog". Is there any validity to this or is it an excuse to minimize the damage?


I'm one of those people who still loved my partner, even in the middle of everything. (Though if you want, you can say that I didn't feel "in love" with her at that time - because things were really bad between us and there was lots of resentment and anger on both sides.) There was major cognitive dissonance going on. 

I've got it now. I understand. It is very hard, but a year of therapy has helped with appropriate boundaries, recognizing things, and communicating more effectively.

As for the fog, when I read about that, I think about the addiction I had to the feelings I was getting at that time. For me, that was real, and was very hard to give up (which was one of the reasons it persisted). Every time I felt pain, sadness, loneliness - anything bad - I wanted to run to someone for comfort and affirmation because I didn't know how to tolerate distress or soothe myself.

My issues with my relationship were very valid, but the way I responded to those issues was wrong. And no, I DIDN'T think about it or premeditate it. I have since learned better ways to respond, though I still have a ways to go.

Oh, and I see the reason that waywards want to R with their betrayeds once they "wake up" is because they see how their actions factored into the destruction and think that if they can do things right and fix their internal issues, the relationship can work.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Racer said:


> yep.. but you still have to be somewhat careful. My WW's reason started long before me; A rape. When our son was molested, it triggered that old trauma. Her dumb councelor didn't help... sure she helped her work out the molestation. But she didn't help with those old hurts of being helpless and out of control that stayed.
> 
> So she had all that rage, anger and frustration. At that point, she started seeking reasons and painted a target on my forehead. Nothing I did or worked on would let those feelings go for her since she was insisting I and our relationship was the source of this misery inside and I was insisting I wasn't doing anything wrong.
> 
> ...


Sad, I am sorry. 

My wife was much simpler to figure out. And while I don't approve of what she did, I can understand how she came to it.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> This is all just semantics.
> 
> There are is no reason or excuse or justification for cheating.
> 
> ...


Then why are you here? If you think the thread is bu**sh*t, go play someplace else.


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## DeterminedToThrive (Nov 2, 2013)

IMO, there are no excuses and only one reason for an affair, the WS is being selfish, thinking only of themselves and what they want and want to do, with no concern as to the pain and damage it will cause anyone else.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf, I think Affaircare is on to something. the "fog" is a way of explaining the inexplicable .. Like primitive man blamed the Gods for thunder. and lightening. It is a myth used to describe an event to somebody who has not experienced that event. I still think your dopamine thing is hogwash. Regardless of whether it is an upper or downer, you are describing a pleasurable mind altering situation. If this were true we would all be doing it. The emotional response to sex, ANY good sex is pretty much the same. To say that casual sex or affair sex is somehow MORE stimulating would have to be proved to me. Also, if casual sex was so wonderful, the most sexually satisfied people in the world would be the Prostitutes and Porn Stars, because they do casual sex all the time.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Excuses Vs Reasons, what is the difference?*



Rookie4 said:


> 2ntnuf, I think Affaircare is on to something. the "fog" is a way of explaining the inexplicable .. Like primitive man blamed the Gods for thunder. and lightening. It is a myth used to describe an event to somebody who has not experienced that event. I still think your dopamine thing is hogwash. Regardless of whether it is an upper or downer, you are describing a pleasurable mind altering situation. If this were true we would all be doing it. The emotional response to sex, ANY good sex is pretty much the same. To say that casual sex or affair sex is somehow MORE stimulating would have to be proved to me. Also, if casual sex was so wonderful, the most sexually satisfied people in the world would be the Prostitutes and Porn Stars, because they do casual sex all the time.


The dopamine reaction isn't about sex at all. It is a biochemical event stemming from an emotional trigger. It's very similar to an adrenaline rush after a scare or a shock. You see something, adrenaline starts pumping and before you can think logically you react by running away in panic or freezing in place (paralyzed by fear.) When you get a dopamine rush, sex is the conclusion, the outcome of the higher level of dopamine. The trigger is the compliment, the hand holding, the kiss. But like with all things the human mind CAN control the outcome. Sex does NOT have to be the end result if the person CHOOSES a different path.


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## DarkHoly (Dec 18, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> This is only the case if you don't understand the way the brain functions.
> 
> So, who is the gullible one?
> 
> Remember, it's never a reason, just an excuse. Now, go back and read what the difference is or you'll be more confused.


We got ourselves an internet badass here, look out.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> The dopamine reaction isn't about sex at all. It is a biochemical event stemming from an emotional trigger. It's very similar to an adrenaline rush after a scare or a shock. You see something, adrenaline starts pumping and before you can think logically you react by running away in panic or freezing in place (paralyzed by fear.) When you get a dopamine rush, sex is the conclusion, the outcome of the higher level of dopamine. The trigger is the compliment, the hand holding, the kiss. But like with all things the human mind CAN control the outcome. Sex does NOT have to be the end result if the person CHOOSES a different path.


But we are talking about those who DID choose the sex path, aren't we? I mean , we aren't talking about those who didn't have affairs. That is why I don't buy it as such a huge emotional rush. If it were so, everybody would be doing it. Plus, 2ntnuf's Doctor specifically said that this was from Casual sex, and I see no evidence for this line of thought at all. How is casual sex, sexier? If the rush is emotional in nature, then how is it more intense in a casual setting, when there is less emotion? Sounds like he is playing both ends against the middle.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> But we are talking about those who DID choose the sex path, aren't we? I mean , we aren't talking about those who didn't have affairs. That is why I don't buy it as such a huge emotional rush. If it were so, everybody would be doing it. Plus, 2ntnuf's Doctor specifically said that this was from Casual sex, and I see no evidence for this line of thought at all. How is casual sex, sexier? If the rush is emotional in nature, then how is it more intense in a casual setting, when there is less emotion? Sounds like he is playing both ends against the middle.


Like I said, its all about choice. The biomechanics are there. If the will is there as well then they will cheat. The dopamine doesn't make them cheat. They choose to do it. Its just that simple.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

In 2ntnuf's post , her Doctor says to be careful if you have casual sex, because you might fall in love. So the sex comes first, and the emotional involvement is a possible by product, not the other way around. So I think he is very confused, and is equating casual sex , affair sex and sex addiction.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

You can't have it both ways. Either the emotion l comes first, then the sex, or the sex comes first , then the emotion. If the sex comes first, then my analogy about prostitutes is correct. If the emotions come first, then that would explain some of the interest in the affair by the WS, and also why the AP is usually not as emotionally involved. . Sounds to me like another bu**sh*t artist trying to sell books.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> In 2ntnuf's post , her Doctor says to be careful if you have casual sex, because you might fall in love. So the sex comes first, and the emotional involvement is a possible by product, not the other way around. So I think he is very confused, and is equating casual sex , affair sex and sex addiction.


From my understanding he is referring to bonding. If you have sex with someone often enough the biochemical responses can cause you to bond with them even if you had not intended to. But it has to be with the same person and for a period of time. I've never heard of indiscriminate casual sex causing love. When I was single and in my "player" days I had quite a bit of casual sex. Most of the time it was ONS or just a few times. If I had sex with a woman more than that I made sure to space it out specifically because I didn't want to get too attached. Only one time did I start to have serious feelings for one of the women and I made sure to catch myself before it went too far. I simply told her I was too busy to be with her anymore and never contacted her again. So it can happen over a long period of time. I guess it depends on what you consider casual sex.

BTW, the chemical that causes bonding feelings is not dopamine, its oxytocin.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> You can't have it both ways. Either the emotion l comes first, then the sex, or the sex comes first , then the emotion. If the sex comes first, then my analogy about prostitutes is correct. If the emotions come first, then that would explain some of the interest in the affair by the WS, and also why the AP is usually not as emotionally involved. . Sounds to me like another bu**sh*t artist trying to sell books.


Sounds like that because it is like that. These fog definitions sound like elaborate excuses. You dont make money selling truth, you make it selling hope.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Excuses Vs Reasons, what is the difference?*



illwill said:


> Sounds like that because it is like that. These fog definitions sound like elaborate excuses. You dont make money selling truth, you make it selling hope.


Ain't that the truth! Wait...what?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Yep, Illwill, that is why I consign all of these "foggy' notions to the excuses bin. Because that is what they are. It's like TV advertising. The "claims" are the excuses, the "fine print" are the reasons. They claim you will get a zillion miles to the gallon, but they always say "your mileage may vary". That is also why so many BS's believe the excuses, because BS's WANT to believe them, and it helps the WS get out of dodge. Which is why so many of the same tired excuses are used by the WS, in the first place.....because they work. How many times has a BS been told by his WS, "I never meant to hurt you"? It's probably the most used excuse , ever. It works for a LOT of WS's, and it isn't any more true , the 5,000,00th time, than it was the first time it was used.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Yep, Illwill, that is why I consign all of these "foggy' notions to the excuses bin. Because that is what they are. It's like TV advertising. The "claims" are the excuses, the "fine print" are the reasons. They claim you will get a zillion miles to the gallon, but they always say "your mileage may vary". That is also why so many BS's believe the excuses, because BS's WANT to believe them, and it helps the WS get out of dodge. Which is why so many of the same tired excuses are used by the WS, in the first place.....because they work. How many times has a BS been told by his WS, "I never meant to hurt you"? It's probably the most used excuse , ever. It works for a LOT of WS's, and it isn't any more true , the 5,000,00th time, than it was the first time it was used.


I guess it depends what you mean by fog.

I can remember the thrill of first love, when it pemeats your thinking and affects everything you do. And maybe some of what you do is not rational.

My wife was like that at the time of the affair. It was like someone had switched her brain off. She did and said all sorts of things that were quite out of character.

I think some of it may have been hormones, some of it may have been a sense of joy at being irresponsible after a time if considerable pressure, and I imagine some of it was confusion.

I also think many women have romantic notions of love...you meet the soul mate and that's it. So when they find themselves attracted to someone else, it turns their values system upside down. 

I suspect all of these were contributing factors for my wife. I don't mind whether you call it fog, but her thinking around the time of the affair was abnormal for her.

I think this is an important point for reconciliation. I truly believe my wife wants a faithful marriage. She made a huge and painful mistake (or bad choice if you prefer) but it is abnormal. And I am not excusing it, but I don't believe she wants to repeat it. Someone who is prepared to do whatever they can get away with is a different proposition.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza, are you serious? You used the term ABNORMAL and NORMAL to describe the same act, and the same mindset, and you still believe in the fog? IDK about Mrs. Wazza, but You seem to a little "foggy". I've always thought you were a pretty smart guy, and you buy into this?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Wazza, are you serious? You used the term ABNORMAL and NORMAL to describe the same act, and the same mindset, and you still believe in the fog? IDK about Mrs. Wazza, but You seem to a little "foggy". I've always thought you were a pretty smart guy, and you buy into this?


Oops. Typo corrected. 

The affair behaviour and foggy thinking were abnormal. As in out of character for her.

I picked up the word fog on tam. Her thinking was just crazy. Illogical.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

OK, You had me worried there, Pardner.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

To me, the fog can be a valid notion. I see it as love or infatuation, but in the secret, exciting, unrealistic world created by affairs, the world where the two people don't have to deal with the day to day stuff, where they only show their good sides, where there are no house payments or diapers to change.

That being said, I see the fog as an excuse. No one is hopelessly lost in the fog and forced to have an affair. This isn't a reason to me - a reason is an objective cause/effect relationship. The word 'excuse' can be used to connote a valid reason, but it can just as easily not be valid. I don't see the fog as a valid reason. I believe in free will - I suppose it boils down to that.

(As for the fog, the great Soul Mate Shmoopies always captured the idiocy and irreality of the fog well:

PART 1: WH and OW–Our Love is Real | Soul Mate Shmoopies

)


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

There again, anybody is free to believe in the "fog" as they choose, but first realize that you are believing in something for which there is not one single shred of proof. So if you get burnt, it would be self-inflicted.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

If you want to reconcile ignore the fog theory. You better take a nice long look at your wayward, and realize they KNEW what they were doing.

If you still want to try, go for it. Good luck. But dont think for a second the person you are with now, is not the same one that cheated.

The liklihood of that act was always buried deep within them. Even if they did not know it.

This fog bull sh!t opens the door for betrayed spouses to falsely reconcile.

Because it allows you to not see them as they were, and can be again.

People rarely change without hardcore consequences. Anything that lessons that is counter productive.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Fog or no fog, excuses or reasons, reconciliation will not be successful unless the disloyal spouse does some serious self reflection and makes some hard and permanent changes in their attitudes, boundaries and in their life in general. And a strong marriage will not result in the aftermath unless the loyal spouse also does some serious self reflection and realizes that they contributed to the state of the marriage as it was prior to and during the affair.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

illwill said:


> If you want to reconcile ignore the fog theory. You better take a nice long look at your wayward, and realize they KNEW what they were doing.
> 
> If you still want to try, go for it. Good luck. But dont think for a second the person you are with now, is not the same one that cheated.
> 
> ...


I agree that the likelihood of the act was buried deep within them, even if they did not know it. True for all of us I believe.

I also kind of agree that just saying "they were in the fog, they are out if it, all will be ok" is pretty naive. Being cheated on doesn't hurt less because your spouse was in the fog.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I still think your dopamine thing is hogwash. Regardless of whether it is an upper or downer, you are describing a pleasurable mind altering situation. If this were true we would all be doing it.


Dopamine has been factually proven to behave like this. You can't dismiss something proven with an MRI brain scan. lol

And we don't all pursue it because some of us have the maturity to recognize just because it feels good in the moment does not mean it's worthy of pursuit.

Cocaine feels good in the moment.. we aren't all doing it.



Rookie4 said:


> The emotional response to sex, ANY good sex is pretty much the same. To say that casual sex or affair sex is somehow MORE stimulating would have to be proved to me.


Risk and excitement junkies have given you a mountain of evidence, you just don't want to acknowledge it.



Rookie4 said:


> Also, if casual sex was so wonderful, the most sexually satisfied people in the world would be the Prostitutes and Porn Stars, because they do casual sex all the time.


This does not follow no.

The problem is that casual sex may feel good in the moment, but there are aspects to porn stars and prostitutes lives that offset this. Very few women grow up thinking "I want to be a hooker..." Most people have the maturity to realize that's not a worthwhile investment long term.

You have to get your head out of long term and realize that some people just act on the moment, consequences be damned. Some people allow themselves to fixate on the moment and they just tune out anything long term. The future does not exist, there is only now.

I don't know if I would use the term "wonderful"... as this suggests it's better on the whole which is not the case.

But in the moment, if you allow yourself to focus on the moment entirely, it's as intoxicating as cocaine.

And just as destructive.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> There again, anybody is free to believe in the "fog" as they choose, but first realize that you are believing in something for which there is not one single shred of proof. So if you get burnt, it would be self-inflicted.


Dopamine is not a myth. You can dismiss factual evidence that's been proven with MRI brain scans all you want, but the evidence is there nontheless.

There is a mountain of proof.

The "fog" is not a myth, it's a fact.

The problem is some people here are allowing the existence of dopamine to dismiss what one behaves like under it's influence.

Dopamine does affect how you think, but you can work through it.

It's not much different than being drunk.

The fact remains is that at some point, you choose to drink that drink. You pick it up, fully sober.

Some people just refuse to look beyond their own moment.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

The brain chemistry of attraction is certainly not a myth. The "fog" is a metaphor describing the WS's seemingly irrational/senseless/self-destructive actions as seen from the POV of the BS.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Philat said:


> The brain chemistry of attraction is certainly not a myth. The "fog" is a metaphor describing the WS's seemingly irrational/senseless/self-destructive actions as seen from the POV of the BS.


It's not just a point of view. It's dopamine. And it can cloud judgement.

This does not in any way exonerate the wayward from accountability. The "fog" is merely a logical and technical explanation for what is happening in the brain.

Far too many people confuse a simple technical explanation with a reasonable and fair justification.

Dopamine makes it difficult to think straight. But at some point a person was thinking straight enough to get into a situation to trigger dopamine flow to begin with.

Dopamine makes it difficult to act like a mature adult, but not impossible.

We still hold people accountable for their behavior when they are drunk, the same ought to be true for people in this mysterious "fog."


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Allen, You and the "dopamine " crowd can't seem to understand that I'm not saying Dopamine has no effects, I'm saying that it's effects are not conscious altering enough to be an excuse for cheating. I would not equate dopamine to alcohol, or cocaine, by any means.
AS far as the "fog" goes, you say it's a fact... then by all means prove it. I have seen evidence about dopamine, I have never seen evidence about the "fog". Just excuses, and alibis.


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

Q : Excuses Vs Reasons, what is the difference?

A : I believe when we're using excuses, we're simply stating the effects of other elements (other people , brain chemicals , society's laws , ...) on our choices in a way that removes our free will and thus our responsibility. but when we're using reasons, we are stating those effects in a way that does not hinder our ability to choose. so we are acknowledging our responsibility and stand by our choices.

read my signature


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Allen, You and the "dopamine " crowd can't seem to understand that I'm not saying Dopamine has no effects, I'm saying that it's effects are not conscious altering enough to be an excuse for cheating. I would not equate dopamine to alcohol, or cocaine, by any means.
> AS far as the "fog" goes, you say it's a fact... then by all means prove it. I have seen evidence about dopamine, I have never seen evidence about the "fog". Just excuses, and alibis.


I can't prove fog to you. I believe it explains what I observed in my wife. I share that in case it helps anyone else.

I don't accept the fog as an excuse for cheating. There is no excuse for cheating.


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