# Opposite Sex Friends?



## CharlotteMcdougall

My husband and I have a rule about opposite sex friends in our marriage. We permit each other to have them, as long as the opposite sex friend is an old pal or homosexual. We do not allow each other to make new opposite sex friends or have ex-partners as friends. There is just too much potential for lines to be crossed.

Some might say that we both are insecure or controlling, but our rule works for us. I have one dear male friend who is gay. I met him in high school and we were each other's first kiss. There is absolutely no sexual tension between us because my male friend isn't attracted to women. My husband and my gay friend have a great rapport. My gay friend once exclaimed to my husband how beautiful I was. My husband deadpanned him with: "_Whatever, light loafers. Changing your mind are you?_" :rofl::rofl: Both of the boys laughed until they cried after that. 

How do you handle opposite sex friends in your marriage?


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## over20

You are very wise. I feel a spouse should NOT have any opposite sex friends period. (your situation with your HS friend is a rare one) A married couple, I feel, should have married couple friends, (boundaries also have to be established within these friendships also), or same sex friends only. Just my thoughts.

Great Topic!!


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## The Middleman

No opposite sex friends in our relationship ... period! Never has been, never will be.


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## tacoma

We don't really have any.

I've met very few women who wanted a genuine friendship with me.
It was always a way to ease into something romantic for them.
My wife feels the same way about male friends

I wouldn't have a problem with her having a male friend if everything was on the up & up.

Meaning he and she were comfortable being around me together.

I must confess I'd be more observant of how they acted with each other than I would a same sex friendship but it's not a deal breaker


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## ConanHub

We don't allow exes. We can have opposite sex friends but they have to be friends with us as a couple. We aren't supposed to be alone with opposite sex friends unless it is important, like an emergency. We communicate a lot and take each others concerns seriously. If one of us doesn't like something it is off the table until we agree.


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## Philat

It's a sore point with us. My W by her own admission likes male attention, has had male friends throughout our marriage. Many of them became orbiters, at least one landed. Only relatively recently has the idea of boundaries and recognizing when they are being crossed taken root in her awareness.

I have had a few female friends over the years, all through work. My W met almost all of them. Nothing to report.


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## Wolf1974

I have a few opposite sex friends. She has two guy friends one is gay as I understand it....both live in another state so I have yet to meet them. As for my three friends who are female she has met all of them and is FB friends with them so all good.

The first girlfriend I had, after divorce, couldn't handle that I had a female friend so we ended our relationship. So long as nothing is hidden then it should be all good.


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## Sandfly

tacoma said:


> I've met very few women who wanted a genuine friendship with me.
> It was always a way to ease into something romantic for them.


Yes... Often, If we want to be their buddy, they suspect us of wanting more, when some of us don't value the Vagina above all things.

If _they _start acting like a cat that wants feeding, then they come on so strong and crazy that we have to get rid of them. Looking back on some relationships/dates I've been on, I could puke over the manipulative 'friending' tactics they employed.


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## alexm

To each their own. We both have some, but we're never alone with our respective single (or married) opposite sex friends, at least not on purpose. But with us, it's an unspoken rule. If we actually had to say to one another "I don't want you being with so-and-so when I'm not there". that just wouldn't be cool. Some things are better left unsaid, and if you have to go there, then something's wrong, imo.

Besides, I'm not so sure that being friends with another married couple is any less "dangerous" than being friends with a single person of the opposite sex. Attraction is attraction, and judging by many threads here, the word "married" means jack squat to a lot of people. Two people could still spark up something on the side, married or not. Just my opinion, though. Either way can be dangerous with the wrong people. Just have to trust your partner.


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## over20

Really good point Sandfly!

:iagree:


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## Sandfly

Thanks, pal!

I'm sure it happens the other way too, in fact, I watch men interacting with women as a hobby, and some of it is sooooooo pathetic.

However, I think the 'friending' female doesn't receive a proportionately appropriate amount of negative attention.


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## over20

alexm said:


> To each their own. We both have some, but we're never alone with our respective single (or married) opposite sex friends, at least not on purpose. But with us, it's an unspoken rule. If we actually had to say to one another "I don't want you being with so-and-so when I'm not there". that just wouldn't be cool. Some things are better left unsaid, and if you have to go there, then something's wrong, imo.
> 
> Besides, I'm not so sure that being friends with another married couple is any less "dangerous" than being friends with a single person of the opposite sex. Attraction is attraction, and judging by many threads here, the word "married" means jack squat to a lot of people. Two people could still spark up something on the side, married or not. Just my opinion, though. Either way can be dangerous with the wrong people. Just have to trust your partner.



Good point! Dh and I have a huge group of married couples and families that all go camping throughout the summer. After spending so much time and sharing a lot of good memories and company, one can start to be attracted to another married spouse. It did happen to me. One of our close married male friends asked me to have an affair with him.... we were really close to the couple, we have known them for 10 yrs., our kids go to the same school and are all friends. I had thought he was attractive and fun, but when he propositioned me...I started to have feelings for him and I was very confused....I was guilt ridden and told my husband....My dh thanked me for being honest.....he didn't blame me or shame me....My Dh confronted our friend and sadly we have had to lessen our time with the whole group of friends A LOT. It was said, there are about 12 couples and all their kids that we have had to back away from. It was worth it though to resist being put in a tempting situation.


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## Philat

over20 said:


> Good point! Dh and I have a huge group of married couples and families that all go camping throughout the summer. After spending so much time and sharing a lot of good memories and company, one can start to be attracted to another married spouse. It did happen to me. One of our close married male friends asked me to have an affair with him.... we were really close to the couple, we have known them for 10 yrs., our kids go to the same school and are all friends. I had thought he was attractive and fun, but when he propositioned me...I started to have feelings for him and I was very confused....I was guilt ridden and told my husband....My dh thanked me for being honest.....he didn't blame me or shame me....My Dh confronted our friend and sadly we have had to lessen our time with the whole group of friends A LOT. It was said, there are about 12 couples and all their kids that we have had to back away from. It was worth it though to resist being put in a tempting situation.


Good work maintaining boundaries in a social environment that can be quite threatening to them.


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## over20

Philat said:


> Good work maintaining boundaries in a social environment that can be quite threatening to them.


Thank you Philat....it was very, very difficult. We were very, very close with them...It messed with my mind and then started to go to my heart...when my heart started to get confused I knew I couldn't handle it anymore and told DH my feelings...I knew I had to bring the situation from the dark to the light....It's hard cause you never know how one would react in a situation like that till it happens..


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## CharlotteMcdougall

Philat said:


> It's a sore point with us. My W by her own admission likes male attention, has had male friends throughout our marriage. Many of them became orbiters, at least one landed. Only relatively recently has the idea of boundaries and recognizing when they are being crossed taken root in her awareness.
> 
> I have had a few female friends over the years, all through work. My W met almost all of them. Nothing to report.


Every woman likes male attention to some degree. However, it is not right for a married woman to encourage it. I will admit to feeling flattered if a handsome man asks me out, but I always politely decline the offer.


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## CharlotteMcdougall

over20 said:


> Good point! Dh and I have a huge group of married couples and families that all go camping throughout the summer. After spending so much time and sharing a lot of good memories and company, one can start to be attracted to another married spouse. It did happen to me. One of our close married male friends asked me to have an affair with him.... we were really close to the couple, we have known them for 10 yrs., our kids go to the same school and are all friends. I had thought he was attractive and fun, but when he propositioned me...I started to have feelings for him and I was very confused....I was guilt ridden and told my husband....My dh thanked me for being honest.....he didn't blame me or shame me....My Dh confronted our friend and sadly we have had to lessen our time with the whole group of friends A LOT. It was said, there are about 12 couples and all their kids that we have had to back away from. It was worth it though to resist being put in a tempting situation.


Your husband is more diplomatic than mine. If I told DH that a friend's husband propositioned me, that man would be bleeding and bruised.


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## Philat

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> Every woman likes male attention to some degree. However, it is not right for a married woman to encourage it. I will admit to feeling flattered if a handsome man asks me out, but I always politely decline the offer.


Does it regularly happen that you, a married woman, gets asked out? How does that happen?


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## over20

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> Your husband is more diplomatic than mine. If I told DH that a friend's husband propositioned me, that man would be bleeding and bruised.


My DH did....he told him to "Go F yourself and stay away from wife". My husband was not going to assault another person and have himself put in jail.....that is a low move when you have a family to support...See ,the other guy is a cowardly cop.


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## CharlotteMcdougall

Philat said:


> Does it regularly happen that you, a married woman, gets asked out? How does that happen?


I wouldn't say it occurs regularly but it does happen often enough for me to take notice. It has happened on public transit, in office buildings, during a girls night out and while shopping.


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## JCD

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> My husband and I have a rule about opposite sex friends in our marriage. We permit each other to have them, as long as the opposite sex friend is an old pal or homosexual. We do not allow each other to make new opposite sex friends or have ex-partners as friends. There is just too much potential for lines to be crossed.
> 
> Some might say that we both are insecure or controlling, but our rule works for us. I have one dear male friend who is gay. I met him in high school and we were each other's first kiss. There is absolutely no sexual tension between us because my male friend isn't attracted to women. My husband and my gay friend have a great rapport. My gay friend once exclaimed to my husband how beautiful I was. My husband deadpanned him with: "_Whatever, light loafers. Changing your mind are you?_" :rofl::rofl: Both of the boys laughed until they cried after that.
> 
> How do you handle opposite sex friends in your marriage?


Only be friends with MARRIED people and be friends to both. Maybe I 'click' more with the woman, but I NEVER disrespect the man or force her to make choices.


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## CharlotteMcdougall

over20 said:


> My DH did....he told him to "Go F yourself and stay away from wife". *My husband was not going to assault another person and have himself put in jail.....that is a low move when you have a family to support*...See ,the other guy is a cowardly cop.


Not every man who assaults another gets put in jail. 

It would all depend on whether on law enforcement was called.

Thank you though. :smthumbup:


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## over20

charlottemcdougall said:


> not every man who assaults another gets put in jail.
> 
> It would all depend on whether on law enforcement was called.
> 
> Thank you though. :smthumbup:


i just listed that the guy was a cop!!!!!!!! My husband is not a hot head that would beat up someone. Yes, he was pissed and let the friend/cop know about it. My husband can scare the living you know what out of a man without laying a hand on him.


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## frusdil

I don't think it's necessary to "ban" friendships. I wouldn't be ok with my husband forbidding me to do something...and would never stand for it. He's not my father. And Vice versa of course.

There are obviously different things that need to be considered in an opposite sex friendship, that don't apply in same sex friendships, but it's a bit over the top to ban them altogether.

My husband and I were talking about this very subject not long ago...we're lucky we tend to agree on all the big things, and neither of us would put ourselves in a situation where something inappropriate could happen.

He has a married couple as long time friends...like 25 years...long before he met me. If he was to go to a movie with the wife, I honestly wouldn't have a problem with it, and I don't think her husband would either (my hubby and the wife are both sci-fi freaks, I hate sci-fi, lol). I wouldn't however, be comfortable if he met a new woman friend, and went to a movie with her (not that he would, just saying how I feel, and yes, I know I'm contradicting myself, lol).

The only ex we have in our lives is his ex wife, and that's only because of their daughter.


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## Horizon

We never discussed it, my WS had always had male work colleague friends she knew before me - but I always felt uncomfortable when my WS (wayward spouse) would greet some men she had worked with with "hello gorgeous". She was a bit flirtatious. On the other hand I realised that i was prone to jealousy - nothing heavy; probably healthy jealousy really.

Fast fwd to a year out from discovering her affair and, after a lot of research, I learned that my WS had very poor boundaries with other work colleagues besides the POS she f**ked. Only in the last week I unearthed a very graphic conversation she had with a younger bloke prior to her affair (not the same man).

It was apparently the norm with them to discuss sex so graphically - including my WS discussing her fantasy f**kbuddy and then at the end saying it was all made up (funny how the fantasy details matched her affair partner). 

I have not spoken about this other work colleague to my WS, nor her attempt to contact her ex-husband. But certainly it fills in the puzzle just that much more - the other life she was leading.

My attitude is that opposite sex friends are OK - but only a trusting relationship makes it OK.


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## RClawson

Here is my "pat" answer for the 100th time on this site. I have many female friends. I have never had nor thought of having an inappropriate relationship with any of them. The majority of them are married. Why does it work? Because they know I respect them and they respect my wife and my family. 

You know some of this has to do with the type of individual that you associate with. I am very selective of the individuals that I am closely associated with and I cannot think of a soul that I am close with that is a cheater. 

Last summer I had lunch with one of my dearest friends. She has a beautiful family and I have always admired her. Halfway through lunch she confided that she was having marital issues. Her husband is aloof and communicates poorly. She has really struggled with social media and all of the "creeps from the past" who come out of the woodwork and try play you in your time of weakness. My heart aches for her and her family. Thanks to what I have learned here I was able to help her clarify some things and encourage her to not give up. 

After I thought about what a blessing she has been in my life. She like many of my female friends are like the sisters I never had. You know part of my nice guy make up has always been extremely respectful of women. I have always had very clear boundary's so having OS friends has never come close to being an issue.


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## NextTimeAround

Our relationship was tested in the beginning as my fiance had the unclear relationship with his "just a friend" ex. He has completely excised her from his / our life.

So it got me thinking, what do I look out for for both of us:

1. Constant or even just frequent messaging.
2. Invitations issued which suggest that one of us is not welcomed.
3. Greater concern and prioritisation for the "friend" than for your partner. 
4. The "friend" giving relationship advice. It doesn't matter whether the advice appears to be supportive of the other partner. The mere fact that the "friend" gets involved is danger sign. IT means you won't be able to control when the "friend" will start badmouthing your partner and advising you to get rid of him / her.
5. Anyone who acts as if their friendship is separate and "has nothing to do with the marriage." I've been told that before.


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## Theseus

over20 said:


> You are very wise. I feel a spouse should NOT have any opposite sex friends period.



That's an incredibly narrow point of view. 

And what if your spouse is bisexual? Then he/she cannot have *any* friends at all??


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## AliceA

DH is my best friend. Ever since we've been married I haven't talked to anyone more than I've talked to him. He knows most of the thoughts running through my head (probably more than he wanted to know, lol) and if I were to ever start thinking that I wanted to tell a friend something rather than DH, it would be a sure sign I needed to put some distance between the friend and myself.

When I was a young woman in a long term relationship (not DH), I cheated by kissing a mutual friend while out clubbing, drunk as a skunk. I wasn't particularly happy in my relationship. I felt incredibly guilty and horrible over it. To be honest though, at this stage of my life I don't regret doing it as it gave me first hand experience of what that trap feels like and how it can develop. I've since had a friend who cheated on her husband in the same way, kissing a 'mutual friend' while drunk, being led into it by the 'understanding, kind, sympathetic' guy who would 'never treat you like that' and thinks your SO doesn't realise how 'lucky he is' to have you, blah blah blah, load of crap to get into your pants. If I'd been there I would've been able to tell her exactly how that was going to turn out. Thankfully her DH forgave her and they got past it.


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## Holland

I have never been in a relationship where I did not trust my partner, have never been cheated on blah blah. 
Personally I find it easy to have clear boundaries but not have to resort to "banning" opp sex friends, it seems very controlling and/or immature to me.

My ex husband and I are friends and co parents. My partner has no issue with me spending family time with the ex and the kids or even having coffee with the ex alone.

I refuse to live a life that is so over controlled, far easier to associate with decent people than to be constantly worried about what your partner is or isn't doing.


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## JCD

Theseus said:


> That's an incredibly narrow point of view.
> 
> And what if your spouse is bisexual? Then he/she cannot have *any* friends at all??



I wouldn't be married to someone bisexual.


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## Theseus

JCD said:


> I wouldn't be married to someone bisexual.


That just avoids the question instead of answering it. What if your wife didn't realize she was bi until after you were married? You wouldn't let her have any male or female friends?


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## Married but Happy

I agree with Holland. We both have a variety of opposite sex friends, new, old, exes, gay, straight. They are all good people - we don't associate with any who aren't. We have good boundaries, excellent communication, and trust. We'd rather deal with any issues that arise (none so far) than live in fear of a possible issue.


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## browneyes74

I have friends of the opposite sex. There has never been an issue. In fact, my becoming friends with the husband has led me to getting some great girlfriends in the wives! 

And then my guyfriends would get put out! B/c they felt I was their sounding board, and then I become both.. 

I agree with RClawson.. It's about boundaries.. And respect. 

I find that sad that you can't have any new friends of the opposite sex.. I work in a male dominated field. So, I would have NO work friends essentially, if I followed that rule.. And if all the men shunned me at work b/c I am a divorced woman, b/c their wives didn't allow it.. Well, I think that would be sad as well.. 

I think people just need to be very careful about who they associate with.. People with honor and integrity.. I learned that lesson the hard way, with my Xhusband and my ex-friend.. 

So.. having been someone that had her friend cheat with her husband, I don't think the fault lies in all friends, or all husbands, but THAT particular friend, and THAT particular husband. And THIS time, I'm going to find a partner that shares the same integrity and honor and values self-respect that I do.. And yes, I cut that friend off as well..


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## ScarletBegonias

The only male friends I have are actually DH's friends from childhood.The only time I see or speak to them is when they come over to hang out w/DH.

I trust DH to have female friends even though he doesn't have any.I don't trust myself to have male friends though.I still don't have a firm enough grasp on my BPD issues to enable me to have male friends.Just the facts of my life. I have boundary problems when I'm triggered.


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## Omego

I think it should happen naturally -- by this I mean the "banning" of other-sex friends. It doesn't have to be a deliberate rule or imposed constraint.

At a certain age, most people are married or in a relationship, spending time with their SOs. So why then, the need to spend time with someone from the opposite sex, one on one? With work, children, or whatever else, time is already at a premium, so I just don't understand this.

There's a difference between socializing at work with colleagues. I would consider those relationships to be simple acquaintance relationships. What I can't fathom is going out after work with a male colleague or making plans to do something non-work related, sharing personal information, confiding in him, etc. To me this would feel wrong. 
My H doesn't do this either with female colleagues. What good can come of it? I have female friends to share things with. My H has male friends/ and/or colleagues to drink beer with and do sports with (he doesn't talk that much anyway).


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## Caribbean Man

Theseus said:


> That just avoids the question instead of answering it. What if your wife didn't realize she was bi until after you were married? You wouldn't let her have any male or female friends?



Lol,

If my wife " suddenly" discovers that she's bisexual after marriage then why would I want to remain married to her?

If your wife" discovers" that she's lesbian , or asexual after marriage would you stay married to her?

Every couple has the right to draw their own boundaries for _their_ marriage.

Not you or any other person.

Having a certain boundary that reflects their realities doesn't automatically make them " narrow minded."

Belief in open marriages doesn't make you more " open minded " or " tolerant." Just means that you have no problem with another person having sex with your spouse.
That's all.
Belief in a closed marriage doesn't make you " narrow minded." Just means that you and your partner choose to have sex with each other exclusively, without bringing a third , fourth , fifth or the entire football team in your bedroom.

Simple as that.


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## Caribbean Man

Sandfly said:


> I'm sure it happens the other way too, in fact,* I watch men interacting with women as a hobby, and some of it is sooooooo pathetic.*


:iagree::rofl:


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## john117

The insecurity-o-meter just maxed out. I have lots of female friends, many married, and there seems to be no issue from any side... 

My wife has far fewer friends so that takes care of that, she does socialize with her colleagues for the most part.


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## struggle

I'm anti opposite sex friends. I think it depends on the situation though and what I would see as red flag behavior. 

If they were old friends from school and still maintained contact and hung out once in a blue moon, I don't see a problem with that. Or if they've been friends for awhile, and she's married and he knows the spouse well too and has spent time with both of them, then I don't see myself having a problem with that either depending on how they maintain their friendship.

"New" friends? No.... not ok. Single and ready to mingle friends....no.

I just know how girls are. They are keeping that line open on your man "just in case"....if they're not outright trying to steal him. Or sometimes they just want a man to flirt with or get some attention. 

I just had a conversation with a girlfriend (who has a bf) who was talking about how hot her guy "friend" is. And that if something ever happened with her and her bf, she would totally hit him up, she's just keeping that little chain there to keep him sniffing around. 

After my 1st XH cheated I've maintained a no-insecurity clause on my relationships. I'm very clear in the beginning how I feel about it, and if I tell him something makes me feel insecure with his interactions with the opposite sex, and he doesn't want to change it, I'm out. I never want to feel that pain again so I play no games with that.


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## catfan

My partner had a good friend for years, in time she turned to be his FWB for 4 years. Then he met me online. Their relationship was so blurred, even when we were getting serious. This matter messed up our relationship, it still does, even when he is not in contact with her anymore. 
By this mess, no other female wil be ever be his close friend, as long as he is with me. He screwed me too bad with his FWB...


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## Theseus

Caribbean Man said:


> Lol,
> 
> If my wife " suddenly" discovers that she's bisexual after marriage then why would I want to remain married to her?


CM, are you serious? If she was faithful, why wouldn't you remain married to her? Bisexual does not mean someone is a cheater or promiscuous. 




> _If your wife" discovers" that she's lesbian , or asexual after marriage would you stay married to her?_


Those are very different situations, because it would likely result in a sexless marriage. But if both partners were asexual or happy with a sexless marriage, then that would be fine for them. 



> _Belief in open marriages doesn't make you more " open minded " or " tolerant." Just means that you have no problem with another person having sex with your spouse.
> That's all._


*Whoa!!* :redcard: I know you love the soapbox, but let's don't go off-topic and derail this thread. This has nothing to do with open marriages or anything like that.


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## Caribbean Man

Theseus said:


> CM, are you serious? If she was faithful, why wouldn't you remain married to her? Bisexual does not mean someone is a cheater or promiscuous.
> 
> Yes, but it could mean that she could also * discover* later on that she's fully lesbian. I married a heterosexual woman , with the idea that she would remain heterosexual. If she changes then that's a dealbreaker for me.
> 
> 
> Those are very different situations, because it would likely result in a sexless marriage. But if both partners were asexual or happy with a sexless marriage, then that would be fine for them.
> 
> Nope.
> And that's the point. Bisexuality is usually a buffer zone or the _scotoma_ between heterosexual and fully gay.
> Fully gay means no sex for the heterosexual partner.
> 
> 
> 
> *Whoa!!* :redcard: I know you love the soapbox, but let's don't go off-topic and derail this thread. This has nothing to do with open marriages or anything like that.
> 
> No problem. As long as you keep off your soapbox too.


The idea is that people make their boundaries to suit their relationships , and what they're comfortable with.


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## CharlotteMcdougall

over20 said:


> i just listed that the guy was a cop!!!!!!!! My husband is not a hot head that would beat up someone. Yes, he was pissed and let the friend/cop know about it. My husband can scare the living you know what out of a man without laying a hand on him.


My husband is a quiet and introverted man; very calm and steady. 

His height and authoritative low voice tends to keep people from messing with him or me. 

However, there are some situations where he would have no qualms about getting physical. Someone propositioning his wife for an affair would make my husband see all shades of red and strike out. Swearing wouldn't be enough for my husband. 

I don't think this makes my husband a "hothead".


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## CharlotteMcdougall

frusdil said:


> I don't think it's necessary to "ban" friendships. I wouldn't be ok with my husband forbidding me to do something...and would never stand for it. He's not my father. And Vice versa of course.
> 
> There are obviously different things that need to be considered in an opposite sex friendship, that don't apply in same sex friendships, but it's a bit over the top to ban them altogether.
> 
> My husband and I were talking about this very subject not long ago...we're lucky we tend to agree on all the big things, and neither of us would put ourselves in a situation where something inappropriate could happen.
> 
> _He has a married couple as long time friends...like 25 years...long before he met me. If he was to go to a movie with the wife, I honestly wouldn't have a problem with it, and I don't think her husband would either (my hubby and the wife are both sci-fi freaks, I hate sci-fi, lol). I wouldn't however, be comfortable if he met a new woman friend, and went to a movie with her (not that he would, just saying how I feel, and yes, I know I'm contradicting myself, lol)._
> 
> The only ex we have in our lives is his ex wife, and that's only because of their daughter.


My husband would have absolutely no problem with me having a male friend whom I knew for a long time. I mentioned my gay friend as an example.


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## CharlotteMcdougall

browneyes74 said:


> I have friends of the opposite sex. There has never been an issue. In fact, my becoming friends with the husband has led me to getting some great girlfriends in the wives!
> 
> And then my guyfriends would get put out! B/c they felt I was their sounding board, and then I become both..
> 
> I agree with RClawson.. It's about boundaries.. And respect.
> 
> I find that sad that you can't have any new friends of the opposite sex.. I work in a male dominated field. So, I would have NO work friends essentially, if I followed that rule.. And if all the men shunned me at work b/c I am a divorced woman, b/c their wives didn't allow it.. Well, I think that would be sad as well..
> 
> I think people just need to be very careful about who they associate with.. People with honor and integrity.. I learned that lesson the hard way, with my Xhusband and my ex-friend..
> 
> So.. having been someone that had her friend cheat with her husband, I don't think the fault lies in all friends, or all husbands, but THAT particular friend, and THAT particular husband. And THIS time, I'm going to find a partner that shares the same integrity and honor and values self-respect that I do.. And yes, I cut that friend off as well..


I think it is sad that you can't accept that some couples have boundaries that you may not agree with. 

There are far sadder things in the world than a couple making an agreement that works for them.


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## CharlotteMcdougall

ScarletBegonias said:


> The only male friends I have are actually DH's friends from childhood.The only time I see or speak to them is when they come over to hang out w/DH.
> 
> I trust DH to have female friends even though he doesn't have any.I don't trust myself to have male friends though.I still don't have a firm enough grasp on my BPD issues to enable me to have male friends.Just the facts of my life. I have boundary problems when I'm triggered.


You are very strong and self aware. It takes courage to admit that your issues are not healed enough to be able to do certain things. I admire that a great deal. :smthumbup:


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

Caribbean Man said:


> Lol,
> 
> If my wife " suddenly" discovers that she's bisexual after marriage then why would I want to remain married to her?
> 
> If your wife" discovers" that she's lesbian , or asexual after marriage would you stay married to her?
> 
> *Every couple has the right to draw their own boundaries for their marriage.*
> 
> Not you or any other person.
> 
> Having a certain boundary that reflects their realities doesn't automatically make them " narrow minded."
> 
> Belief in open marriages doesn't make you more " open minded " or " tolerant." Just means that you have no problem with another person having sex with your spouse.
> That's all.
> Belief in a closed marriage doesn't make you " narrow minded." Just means that you and your partner choose to have sex with each other exclusively, without bringing a third , fourth , fifth or the entire football team in your bedroom.
> 
> Simple as that.


:iagree: :iagree: Thank you! 

I am noticing that those who accuse others of being insecure, narrow minded, immature etc for not allowing opposite sex friends are the only ones taking shots. 

What could be more narrow minded and immature than that kind of behavior? Mature adults can own their beliefs without being needlessly hostile to others. 

I didn't post this thread to start a flame war.


----------



## BostonBruins32

opposite sex friends. haha. age old battle ive had with wife. 

her opposite sex friends (90% old school) consist of guys she dated for a short while, guys that have crushes on her and some that are truly just pals. The funniest thing I see about opposite sex friends (notable on facebook) is that they are more present during trying times in current relationship. They are more present when said woman is single. I also notice funny things on facebook like my wife's guy "friends" only comment on posts she make that are unrelated to me or her family life. If its a photo of her, they comment. If its a photo of her and myself, no comment.

Opposite sex friends. LOL. such a funny concept ,as it is the biggest smear of bullshiv 90% of the time.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> You are very strong and self aware. It takes courage to admit that your issues are not healed enough to be able to do certain things. I admire that a great deal. :smthumbup:


Thank you


----------



## BostonBruins32

ScarletBegonias said:


> Thank you


scarlet, could you elaborate on BPD and guy friends? 

i sincerely think there is something to this with my wife..


----------



## ScarletBegonias

BostonBruins32 said:


> scarlet, could you elaborate on BPD and guy friends?
> 
> i sincerely think there is something to this with my wife..


I'd love to but I don't want to hijack the thread.It would probably be helpful to you to venture into the mental health portion of the site.There are tons of BPD threads there that may contain some information about boundaries related to the bpd'er.


----------



## TAM2013

Not wanting to share your Mrs with other men does not make you insecure. It makes you a proper man because you know how proper men think. Proper men sniff around other women for one reason and one reason only.

Feminized men don't think like real men, don't get the intentions of real men, don't view other women like real men do and hence don't see the implications from either side.

No exceptions unless the friends are lesbian or gay. None.


----------



## BostonBruins32

the easiest way to look at it is like this:

Why do most opposite sex friends stop hanging out once one of them is in a relationship? Answer this and focus on the majority.


----------



## over20

Theseus said:


> That's an incredibly narrow point of view.
> 
> And what if your spouse is bisexual? Then he/she cannot have *any* friends at all??


I only answered as a hetero female married to a hetero male. I feel the OP's marriage is the same unless she mentions otherwise. Having a bisexual spouse would certainly be of a different nature. The dynamics of the marriage would not be the same. I am not familiar with that kind of relationship.

Respectfully said, I am allowed to have my POV and you yours.


----------



## over20

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> My husband is a quiet and introverted man; very calm and steady.
> 
> His height and authoritative low voice tends to keep people from messing with him or me.
> 
> However, there are some situations where he would have no qualms about getting physical. Someone propositioning his wife for an affair would make my husband see all shades of red and strike out. Swearing wouldn't be enough for my husband.
> 
> I don't think this makes my husband a "hothead".




Touche...but there is more than one way to handle a situation.


This topic reminds me of the other threads named "Can men and women be friends".....


----------



## Wolf1974

I agree with you over20. People have varying opinions on this and so long as it's you and your spouse on the same page then it's no issues.

I don't personally choose my friends based on gender....and never will. My best friend is a woman. We hang out from time to time and all is good. I introduced her to her husband and care deeply for her and her new family. I even became ordained to marry them last year. So my x girlfriend wanted me to get rid of her....why? She is like a sister to me and I refused and gladly showed my x GF the door.

My current GF loves my friend and they also hang out. So for us this is a non issue. Everyone is allowed their own boundaries


----------



## Wolf1974

BostonBruins32 said:


> the easiest way to look at it is like this:
> 
> Why do most opposite sex friends stop hanging out once one of them is in a relationship? Answer this and focus on the majority.


I have experienced this from both a male and a female friend. They became involved with a relationship and poof they were gone. Never talk anymore. Never hang out. Nothing. Basically close friends to Facebook friends in an instant. And that's where I keep them. 

Friends are useless when you can't count on them or if you are used to entertain them when they are single....sorry not interested. So with my male friend once his relationship ended he wanted to come back and hang out with us again....ummm nope not happening. If my female friend ever tried same this same thing.


----------



## jaharthur

TAM2013 said:


> Not wanting to share your Mrs with other men does not make you insecure. It makes you a proper man because you know how proper men think. Proper men sniff around other women for one reason and one reason only.
> 
> Feminized men don't think like real men, don't get the intentions of real men, don't view other women like real men do and hence don't see the implications from either side.
> 
> No exceptions unless the friends are lesbian or gay. None.


Who said anything about "sharing" one's wife? In my circles, proper men have respect for other women as people rather than as potential sex partners.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

BostonBruins32 said:


> the easiest way to look at it is like this:
> 
> Why do most opposite sex friends stop hanging out once one of them is in a relationship? Answer this and focus on the majority.


Quite often, new partners get jealous and the coupled friend rightfully chooses their new partner over their friend. 

It happened to me. I dated a guy for about three months when I was 19. We stayed friends for nearly ten years until he met his now wife. Our friendship made her uncomfortable, even though it was strictly platonic. 

My friend chose his then girlfriend over our long friendship. Though I miss him, I understand and respect his decision. I stay away.


----------



## Wolf1974

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> Quite often, new partners get jealous and the coupled friend rightfully chooses their new partner over their friend.
> 
> It happened to me. I dated a guy for about three months when I was 19. We stayed friends for nearly ten years until he met his now wife. Our friendship made her uncomfortable, even though it was strictly platonic.
> 
> My friend chose his then girlfriend over our long friendship. Though I miss him, I understand and* respect his decision*. I stay away.


 
May I ask why you do? I get that things evolve. When single and I hang out with my friends we often spend a lot of time together and once inside a relationship the majority of my time is spent with my significant other as do they. But I have never completely give up a friendship just because I have a GF. Would never occur to me to do so. Yes the time spent together is lessened and we do more couple things, like double date, but to completely stay away I wouldn't do. And of the two friends who did that to me I don't respect their friendship more than just Facebook acquaintances at this point. Just curious


----------



## Theseus

Caribbean Man said:


> Yes, but it could mean that she could also * discover* later on that she's fully lesbian. I married a heterosexual woman , with the idea that she would remain heterosexual. If she changes then that's a dealbreaker for me.


CM, normally you are a level-headed guy, but just *WOW*. That is the craziest thing I have ever heard you say. 

Let me see if I get this straight. Let's assume your wife has always been faithful to you and she promises she fully intends to stay that way. And one day she confides to you that she found herself unexpectedly attracted to one of her female friends. Your response would be to hand her divorce papers? Are you serious???

Yes, you can set whatever boundaries work for you, but good luck getting a divorce with that one. Simply being attracted to someone or being bisexual is not a basis for divorce, unless you live in a no-fault state (or country). 

And if you did stay with her, good luck trying to tell her she can't have any friends, male or female. My point here is that sooner or later married couples simply have to let go of the leash and trust one another, because temptation will always be out there in many forms.


----------



## NextTimeAround

REgarding bisexuality, I take that to mean that when one "discovers" that they are bi, they are actually acting upon that discovery. IF you were already in an exclusive relationship with that person, and that new ripple was visited upon........ then by my reckoning, they are actually cheating........

Is there anybody out there who says "hi, honey, I think I'm bisexual even though I have not tested it yet. We're good still, aren't we?"


----------



## nuclearnightmare

over20 said:


> Good point! Dh and I have a huge group of married couples and families that all go camping throughout the summer. After spending so much time and sharing a lot of good memories and company, one can start to be attracted to another married spouse. It did happen to me. One of our close married male friends asked me to have an affair with him.... we were really close to the couple, we have known them for 10 yrs., our kids go to the same school and are all friends. I had thought he was attractive and fun, but when he propositioned me...I started to have feelings for him and I was very confused....I was guilt ridden and told my husband....My dh thanked me for being honest.....he didn't blame me or shame me....My Dh confronted our friend and sadly we have had to lessen our time with the whole group of friends A LOT. It was said, there are about 12 couples and all their kids that we have had to back away from. It was worth it though to resist being put in a tempting situation.


over:

very interesting account. one thing I'm curious about is why did his proposition prompt you to have feeklings for him? was your marriage struggling at the time?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> I wouldn't say it occurs regularly but it does happen often enough for me to take notice. It has happened on public transit, in office buildings, during a girls night out and while shopping.


do non-strangers ask you out? i.e. people that know you're married....


----------



## tacoma

Wolf1974 said:


> May I ask why you do?


You didn't ask me but I'm gonna answer anyway.



While I don't necessarily have a problem with my wife having male friends Ex lovers are a hard boundary in our relationship.

This is due to the fact that an intimate relationship with an Ex is only a phone call away.

There is no fear of rejection, there is no time spent getting to know each other, and it's common knowledge that a physical attraction is already present.
Also and most seriously there is already some sort of emotional connection there no matter how small.

This makes friendship with an Ex far more dangerous than a typical friendship.


----------



## tacoma

NextTimeAround said:


> REgarding bisexuality, I take that to mean that when one "discovers" that they are bi, they are actually acting upon that discovery. IF you were already in an exclusive relationship with that person, and that new ripple was visited upon........ then by my reckoning, they are actually cheating........
> 
> Is there anybody out there who says "hi, honey, I think I'm bisexual even though I have not tested it yet. We're good still, aren't we?"


Yes, actually it's happened quite often if my lurking relationship forums is any indication.


----------



## Wolf1974

tacoma said:


> You didn't ask me but I'm gonna answer anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> While I don't necessarily have a problem with my wife having male friends Ex lovers are a hard boundary in our relationship.
> 
> This is due to the fact that an intimate relationship with an Ex is only a phone call away.
> 
> There is no fear of rejection, there is no time spent getting to know each other, and it's common knowledge that a physical attraction is already present.
> Also and most seriously there is already some sort of emotional connection there no matter how small.
> 
> This makes friendship with an Ex far more dangerous than a typical friendship.


Ahh well I can get the x lover thing. I don't keep x's as friends. They are x's for a reason. Maybe that was her case. She said she dated but not necessarily that they were lovers so I didn't want to assume.


----------



## alexm

Caribbean Man said:


> Lol,
> 
> If my wife " suddenly" discovers that she's bisexual after marriage then why would I want to remain married to her?
> 
> If your wife" discovers" that she's lesbian , or asexual after marriage would you stay married to her?


You realize bisexual and lesbian are two entirely different things, right?

If your wife decides she's a lesbian, then well, duh. She's going to be the one giving you papers, not the other way around.

If she figures out she's bisexual, so what? It doesn't mean she'll act on it, any more than if she would go sleep with another man. Why this seems to mean you suddenly wouldn't trust her is strange. Would you just be scared that the possible cheating partners pool just doubled?

If she loves you, and is attracted to you, then what's the problem? She can be attracted to other men, as she likely is (but doesn't act upon it), but she can't be attracted to women? (and still not act on it). What?

So if you were bisexual, would you not marry, simply because you don't think bisexual people should (or can...) settle down with somebody, regardless of sexual orientation?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there's a bisexual, and happily married, woman on TAM, who does not cheat on her husband with other women.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Theseus said:


> And if did stay with her, good luck trying to tell her she can't have any friends, male or female. My point here is that sooner or later married couples simply have to let go of the leash and trust one another, because temptation will always be out there in many forms.


Um NO.

It's not called a leash. Only animals live on leashes.
It's called " boundaries" and it's what defines a relationship.

A boundary is what makes it improper for a elder brother to have a shower with his younger sister or touch her in a sexual way.

A boundary is what helps married people to have clear defined rules regarding each other's behaviour , and helps minimize misunderstanding. It is not meant to keep anybody from temptation but to help each person hold themselves accountable to a mutually agreed upon standard or ideal.
Trust cannot replace a boundary , because trust can't define a relationship.
Every relationship is defined by it's boundaries even open marriages, polyamorus relationships and swinger lifestyle relationships.

Good luck on your open marriage and lack of boundaries.


----------



## richie33

I have female friends for 20 plus years. When I met my wife we all became friends. I am friends with their husbands as well. Never been a issue.


----------



## Caribbean Man

alexm said:


> You realize bisexual and lesbian are two entirely different things, right?
> 
> If your wife decides she's a lesbian, then well, duh. She's going to be the one giving you papers, not the other way around.
> 
> If she figures out she's bisexual, so what? It doesn't mean she'll act on it, any more than if she would go sleep with another man. Why this seems to mean you suddenly wouldn't trust her is strange. Would you just be scared that the possible cheating partners pool just doubled?
> 
> If she loves you, and is attracted to you, then what's the problem? She can be attracted to other men, as she likely is (but doesn't act upon it), but she can't be attracted to women? (and still not act on it). What?
> 
> So if you were bisexual, would you not marry, simply because you don't think bisexual people should (or can...) settle down with somebody, regardless of sexual orientation?
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there's a bisexual, and happily married, woman on TAM, who does not cheat on her husband with other women.


Yeah.

And I'm also happily married to a heterosexual woman who doesn't cheat on me.
Have been for almost two decades...


Does that count?

Or are you saying my marriage would have been better and guaranteed immune to affairs if she was bisexual?


----------



## NextTimeAround

If my partner told me he just discovered that he is bi, I would start considering my exit strategy.

If he had told me that he ws bi before we agreed to exclusivity, I would not have agreed to it.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> So if you were bisexual, would you not marry, simply because you don't think bisexual people should (or can...) settle down with somebody, regardless of sexual orientation?


I have a couple of bisexual (female) friends. One broke the heart of a lesbian friend of mine. The other one, I never of her dating anyone regularly.

I have no desire to create laws against them. I just don't want to date and marry a bisexual man.


----------



## Caribbean Man

NextTimeAround said:


> If my partner told me he just discovered that he is bi, I would start considering my exit strategy.
> 
> If he had told me that he ws bi before we agreed to exclusivity, I would not have agreed to it.


It's as simple as that.
Last time I checked people were getting divorced for much less things than that.

Lol,those guys amuse me with their gibberish.
I'm not interested in their snake oil.


----------



## alexm

Caribbean Man said:


> Or are you saying my marriage would have been better and guaranteed immune to affairs if she was bisexual?


I'm trying to figure out why you think your marriage would be DIFFERENT.


----------



## Caribbean Man

alexm said:


> I'm trying to figure out why you think your marriage would be DIFFERENT.


Because the dynamics in a bisexual relationship are DIFFERENT.

Statistics show that bisexual partners in _both_ heterosexual and gay relationships are more likely to become domestic violence victims because of jealousy.

Does that make sense to you?


----------



## Theseus

NextTimeAround said:


> Is there anybody out there who says "hi, honey, I think I'm bisexual even though I have not tested it yet. We're good still, aren't we?"


Yes, I had a girlfriend in college who said basically that same thing. She once insisted she wasn't the slightest bit attracted to women, then one day out of the blue, she told me she was attracted to a new friend of hers. So what? I didn't dump her for being honest. And I sure as hell wasn't going to tell her to stop seeing her friend (who wasn't into girls herself). 

BTW, she never cheated on me.


----------



## Sandfly

Interesting thread.

I must confess, I don't want any girlfriend to have any male friends, but this comes from solid experience, that

MEN can't be trusted around other 'friends' partners. Not alone, anyway.

However, as a person who personally would never ever try to take a woman off a friend, I struggle to know why most men don't have this code written into their DNA like I do.

And my conclusion is this:

They are hypnotised by the power of Vagina, whereas I see the veejay merely as the conduit to a woman's soul, which is the thing I am interested in. Or was interested in, until recently. Poor me, I know.


----------



## Theseus

Caribbean Man said:


> Um NO.
> 
> It's not called a leash. Only animals live on leashes.
> It's called " boundaries" and it's what defines a relationship.


And when a boundary treats the partner like someone you can't trust, then it's more like a leash. You may be happy living like that, but I wouldn't. 

And BTW, you avoided my question. 



> _Good luck on your open marriage and lack of boundaries._


This isn't the first thread you've pulled this stunt. FYI: I'm not in an open marriage, I've never been in an open marriage and I will *POLITELY BUT FIRMLY* request that you drop this obsession you have and stop repeating that *LIE* every single time you respond to my comments. Understand?  

You want to know about my marriage? You can ask me outside this thread. Don't hijack this one.


----------



## RClawson

This thread has a bit more depth than most like it that are posted here. I think one of the reasons I have no issues with female friends and my wife has none with me having them is because she knows me and the type of people I associate with. A good portion of my professional history involved working in businesses dominated by females. If I had not fostered deeper friendships in those jobs I would have failed professionally. Keep this in mind as well becuase there were many women at those workplaces who I could have never been friends with nor would I have wanted to. I did not trust them and who knows maybe I did not trust myself and knew better.

I also recognize that some individuals recognize that they may need to have limits on associations for various reasons and I respect that as well. I do believe that having a friendship with someone you have had a physical relationship with while in a relationship with someone else or after you are married is just plain disrespectful.


----------



## AliceA

One thing out of all this that has me raising an eyebrow is the idea that a woman will suddenly, after many years of marriage, decide she's bisexual. "Oh wow, she's so pretty, for some inexplicable reason I suddenly want to date her after living my whole life up to this point seeing many beautiful woman and never thinking that". Er, riiiiight.

Sounds like a load of BS hypothesizing. You don't *suddenly* turn bisexual. If you're bisexual, you always have been, therefore, you weren't truthful when stating you were heterosexual.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Theseus said:


> And when a boundary treats the partner like someone you can't trust, then it's more like a leash. You may be happy living like that, but I wouldn't.


Well there you have it Theseus!


You just implied that our marriage boundaries , [ although I haven't even stated our boundaries on this thread] treats our partners like someone we can't trust , so it's more like a leash.

You've mounted your soapbox.

Now quite a few people on this thread have admitted that they have no problem with their spouse having opposite sex friends , just as long as it wasn't exes.
You clearly stated that, such a boundary is too restrictive and they should drop those boundaries.

In other words , you are saying that they should encourage their partners to form relationships without boundaries with past boyfriends / girlfriends.

Clearly, without boundaries , the relationship would become sexual, because a boundary says that there shouldn't be any sex. 
You also said that you won't be happy living in a relationship where there are boundaries. 
If your marriage has no boundaries and you have no problem with your wife hanging out with past boyfriends , random stranger or any other man, and she is free to form any type of relationship she wishes with them, sexual or otherwise, isn't that an open marriage?

What am I missing here?


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

Wolf1974 said:


> May I ask why you do? I get that things evolve. When single and I hang out with my friends we often spend a lot of time together and once inside a relationship the majority of my time is spent with my significant other as do they. But I have never completely give up a friendship just because I have a GF. Would never occur to me to do so. Yes the time spent together is lessened and we do more couple things, like double date, but to completely stay away I wouldn't do. And of the two friends who did that to me I don't respect their friendship more than just Facebook acquaintances at this point. Just curious


What you're saying makes complete sense. Not every man is like you though.

I respect my former friend's decision because I want him to be happy and enjoy his relationship. Since I care about him, that means respecting his boundaries. 

It's sad. I would have loved to attend his wedding as a dear friend and offer my congratulations. Alas, that wasn't in the cards. All I can do is let go with love and wish my friend all the best. I have joyous memories of good times that I can keep for the rest of my days.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

nuclearnightmare said:


> do non-strangers ask you out? i.e. people that know you're married....


Well, even strangers can tell that I am married because of the rings on my left hand. When I remind them of this, I am often told "I don't care." or "What your husband doesn't know won't hurt him." These comments disgust me because it shows such a lack of respect for marriage. 

I have had acquaintances seem friendly at first and then make overtly sexual comments. 

When I was single, I ran the other way if I met a man and he was married. No matter what sob story they gave me I would always walk away.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

tacoma said:


> You didn't ask me but I'm gonna answer anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> While I don't necessarily have a problem with my wife having male friends Ex lovers are a hard boundary in our relationship.
> 
> This is due to the fact that an intimate relationship with an Ex is only a phone call away.
> 
> There is no fear of rejection, there is no time spent getting to know each other, and it's common knowledge that a physical attraction is already present.
> Also and most seriously there is already some sort of emotional connection there no matter how small.
> 
> This makes friendship with an Ex far more dangerous than a typical friendship.


My friend and I never slept together during the short time we were dating. We were friends much long than we were a couple. 
It was a very innocent college romance. 

When we were friends, we offered hugs and cuddles to each other when one of us had our heart broken. There was no sexual touching or even kisses. Honestly, we were like brother and sister.


----------



## Sandfly

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> My friend and I never slept together during the short time we were dating. We were friends much long than we were a couple.
> It was a very innocent college romance.
> 
> When we were friends, we offered hugs and cuddles to each other when one of us had our heart broken. There was no sexual touching or even kisses. Honestly, we were like brother and sister.


Doesn't mean HE didn't want to shag you.

The fact that he never made any move however, makes me suspect that he is one of the famous few fellows with a moral code, so I think you're right about him being a good egg.


----------



## alexm

Caribbean Man said:


> Because the dynamics in a bisexual relationship are DIFFERENT.
> 
> Statistics show that bisexual partners in _both_ heterosexual and gay relationships are more likely to become domestic violence victims because of jealousy.
> 
> Does that make sense to you?


Now I'm just trying to find out why you're being an *******, in addition to why any of that would have a bearing on your relationship.

If you love somebody, you love somebody. If you trust them, you trust them. Whether they like men, women, or both. What's the difference?

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and assume (you know what they say...) that you are Christian? Homophobic? Both? Or just very conservative?


----------



## John Lee

My wife and I started dating young and both had typical liberal attitudes (I mean open, btw, not trying to talk politics here) about opposite sex friendships. We both learned the hard way that it almost never can work, even when "this one is different." There's one exception for my wife -- the guy is unattractive, has some mental health issues, and seems almost asexual, and they bond around a common interest, and I just feel no sense of any "threat" from him. I had a professional friend for a while who was a very unattractive lesbian. Those are the only opposite sex friends that have worked for us.

At work there are several very attractive young women and I'm very reserved with them. I try to avoid situations where we're chatting alone, and I keep conversation polite. It took some maturity and self-discipline to get to the point where I could do that.


----------



## over20

nuclearnightmare said:


> over:
> 
> very interesting account. one thing I'm curious about is why did his proposition prompt you to have feeklings for him? was your marriage struggling at the time?


Thank you. Yes, my DH works very long hours in a hospital. I was very lonely.We did not see each other very much. I liked this other man because we all, including his wife, have been friends for over 10 years....he was fun, cute and personable. I did NOT ever think about him in any other way until he came on to me. I struggled really bad with feelings...like do I or don't I....I was so plagued by guilt...I confessed it to DH....I was so ashamed to have feelings for another....but it can happen.

Dh and my marriage is in a lot better place...we have learned how to become more transparent with setting up better boundaries.


----------



## over20

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> Well, even strangers can tell that I am married because of the rings on my left hand. When I remind them of this, I am often told "I don't care." or "What your husband doesn't know won't hurt him." These comments disgust me because it shows such a lack of respect for marriage.
> 
> I have had acquaintances seem friendly at first and then make overtly sexual comments.
> 
> When I was single, I ran the other way if I met a man and he was married. No matter what sob story they gave me I would always walk away.



I understand...OP...I have had men try to pick me up at red lights and on the dang freeway.....some men do not care...and some men even try harder with a married woman.


----------



## Theseus

Caribbean Man said:


> Now quite a few people on this thread have admitted that they have no problem with their spouse having opposite sex friends , just as long as it wasn't exes.
> You clearly stated that, such a boundary is too restrictive and they should drop those boundaries.


No, actually I was responding to Over20, who said she doesn't believe in allowing any OS friends at all. I just said that was a very narrow point of view. 




> _You also said that you won't be happy living in a relationship where there are boundaries._


I just think some boundaries are horribly excessive for a healthy relationship, inlcuding a restriction on simply having OS friends. No one is condoning sleeping with them.


----------



## over20

My POV is mine which is allowed and yours is yours, neither one of us has to conform.


----------



## John Lee

Theseus said:


> And when a boundary treats the partner like someone you can't trust, then it's more like a leash. You may be happy living like that, but I wouldn't.


I don't see how it's anything like a "leash" if both partners agree about it. Maybe it's more like a "recognition of human nature." I have the rule for myself, not just for my wife. I just see it as a product of me having been on earth long enough to know what tends to happen between women and men who spend time alone together. I don't mean "I can't help but sleep with them" I mean feelings develop, and those feelings start interfering with your marriage.


----------



## lonelyhusband321

I really hate chick flicks, but there is an exchange in "When Harry Met Sally" that pretty much sums it ALL up.

Men are men and women are women. There are WAY too many simple exchanges that can VERY easily wind up with sexual overtones.

NO opposite sex friends is the only policy that would be completely foolproof. That policy would have saved a great number of marriages, I'd bet!

I don't remember the statistics exactly (the stats that I looked up when my marriage crashed and I first started here), but as I recall something like 70% of affairs started as "friends". Not a good stat for OS friendships!


----------



## alexm

over20 said:


> My POV is mine which is allowed and yours is yours, neither one of us has to conform.


I know this wasn't in response to me, but this is how I feel, too.

I think different couples have different boundaries, and that's okay. My ex wife had too many male friends, and that didn't end well. My current wife has some, but she doesn't interact with them without me. And I didn't have to ask her to do that.

I'm comfortable with it with my wife. I wasn't comfortable with it with my ex wife.


----------



## over20

Theseus said:


> No, actually I was responding to Over20, who said she doesn't believe in allowing any OS friends at all. I just said that was a very narrow point of view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just think some boundaries are horribly excessive for a healthy relationship, inlcuding a restriction on simply having OS friends. No one is condoning sleeping with them.


I am allowed to have my POV and you yours.....what works for you is great as well as mine.....you think I have a narrow POV and I think you have a WPOV...to each there own.


----------



## Wolf1974

lonelyhusband321 said:


> I really hate chick flicks, but there is an exchange in "When Harry Met Sally" that pretty much sums it ALL up.
> 
> Men are men and women are women. There are WAY too many simple exchanges that can VERY easily wind up with sexual overtones.
> 
> NO opposite sex friends is the only policy that would be completely foolproof. That policy would have saved a great number of marriages, I'd bet!


I get what your saying but disagree with its application. No such thing as full proof. My x wife and I both had opposite sex friends. She cheated with a co worker so it made no difference what friends we had. Even if you did have a hard and fast rule, no opposite sex friends, you can't say no opposite sex co workers ....least most of us can't 

From my own perspective people who cheat are of low character and values. Only full proof way is to avoid those people. The real secret is figuring who they are which I am terrible at personally.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

Sandfly said:


> Doesn't mean HE didn't want to shag you.
> 
> The fact that he never made any move however, makes me suspect that he is one of the famous few fellows with a moral code, so I think you're right about him being a good egg.


He told me that he wanted to save himself for marriage. Even though that pained me (He was a muscular and HANDSOME young man.) I tried to show respect for his wishes. I even went to church with him.  Oh, the things we do when we are young and insecure. I knew I wasn't Christian but I desperately wanted to be for my friend. We did plenty of kissing though.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

over20 said:


> Thank you. Yes, my DH works very long hours in a hospital. I was very lonely.We did not see each other very much. I liked this other man because we all, including his wife, have been friends for over 10 years....he was fun, cute and personable. I did NOT ever think about him in any other way until he came on to me. I struggled really bad with feelings...like do I or don't I....I was so plagued by guilt...I confessed it to DH....I was so ashamed to have feelings for another....but it can happen.
> 
> Dh and my marriage is in a lot better place...we have learned how to become more transparent with setting up better boundaries.


Wow. Very honest, direct. I'm glad you got past that and bolstered your marriage.


----------



## alexm

Wolf1974 said:


> I get what your saying but disagree with its application. No such thing as full proof. My x wife and I both had opposite sex friends. She cheated with a co worker so it made no difference what friends we had. Even if you did have a hard and fast rule, no opposite sex friends, you can't say no opposite sex co workers ....least most of us can't
> 
> From my own perspective people who cheat are of low character and values. Only full proof way is to avoid those people. The real secret is figuring who they are which I am terrible at personally.


While I agree in principle with this, it's not necessarily physical cheating that some people are worried about, I think.

If you develop close relationships with people of the opposite sex, it can be just as damaging to your relationship. I understand where people who are against this are coming from. Things don't necessarily have to happen physically for there to be any damage done. I personally would not like my wife to develop feelings for one of my friends, which CAN happen if they're around enough. Even if nothing comes from it, the fact that two people could even view somebody in a more than friendly light isn't good.

The story posted a few pages back about the couple whose other couple friend propositioned her for an affair shows this can happen. She didn't see it coming, and when he inquired about this, it left her head spinning and she was confused. This wasn't a single guy who did this. He was a married friend of the couple.

IMO, this isn't enough to ban friendships - but that's my opinion. As you stated, it can happen at work, too. You can't force your spouse to work with only people of the same sex.

My opinion, as much as some of you will hate me for saying, is that some folks will cheat no matter what. They just have to be given the opportunity, or the reason. And they will find the opportunity somewhere else, no matter what you "ban" in a relationship. No same sex friends? No problem. We can have married friends, and maybe one of them is up for an affair. I have co-workers, one of them might hit on me.

Some folks (like the poster of the story above), will not, and will end up doing the right thing when presented with the opportunity. Therefore, there's not really anything one can do to prevent this. I honestly believe that. Well, other than being a loving, supportive and caring partner. But even then, it can happen.

So in the end, making all these rules is foolish, imo. Do not take this as me saying you are a fool if you feel you need to do this. What I AM saying, is that making these rules is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Removing only one of dozens of daily opportunities is not going to prevent your spouse from doing something if they want to.


----------



## over20

nuclearnightmare said:


> Wow. Very honest, direct. I'm glad you got past that and bolstered your marriage.


Thank you.......I felt like crap...but my Dh was sooooo happy that I came to HIM to confess my weakness...I truly think that made a difference in how my DH reacted to the OM......


----------



## Wolf1974

over20 said:


> Thank you.......I felt like crap...but my Dh was sooooo happy that I came to HIM to confess my weakness...I truly think that made a difference in how my DH reacted to the OM......


Why would you think you are weak??? You were tempted.....we all have been......but you then made the choice to say no. I call that strong


----------



## AliceA

over20 said:


> Thank you.......I felt like crap...but my Dh was sooooo happy that I came to HIM to confess my weakness...I truly think that made a difference in how my DH reacted to the OM......


I agree that you did very well to admit to yourself that you couldn't deal with that situation on your own and then talk to your Dh about it. I think that he was very wise not to run off half ****ed and start throwing punches, lol. It's romantic for some to have their husbands beat people up, but I personally respect those who act with self control.


----------



## over20

Thank you....I just felt like I should have had better walls built up before that kind of temptation was offered......I WAS the type of person that judged other's for this very kind of thing. I hate myself now for judging men and women who struggle with temptation.


----------



## over20

It so very hard to foresee the circumstances that can lead to this kind of situation......I have learned how to bestow much mercy to people, that struggle with sexual temptation....husbands and wives alike.


----------



## AliceA

over20 said:


> Thank you....I just felt like I should have had better walls built up before that kind of temptation was offered......I WAS the type of person that judged other's for this very kind of thing. I hate myself now for judging men and women who struggle with temptation.


That's where people make mistakes I think, with the belief that they can control every emotion, that they are 'above' temptation. No one is above it, we can do our best to limit our exposure to it, and sometimes even with clear 'boundaries' and knowledge of how situations like these can develop, we can still be caught unawares.

The fact is, it's what you do once you realise you're in that situation that really matters, because we can't control everything that happens to us, but we can control our choices once it does happen.

This is where people who believe that only 'bad' people will cheat are weaker than those who accept human nature, because when they are placed in a situation, they don't have the 'awareness' to see it.


----------



## over20

Very wise insight.........


----------



## over20

Blue Pill or Red Pill? said:


> I won't allow my wife to have any male friends. I think most females are too emotional to be able to handle the boundaries.
> 
> All a guy has to do is compliment her a few times and all of a sudden they think he cares about her.


That could very well happen if your wife is not being fed at home.


----------



## Holland

Blue Pill or Red Pill? said:


> I won't allow my wife to have any male friends. I think most females are too emotional to be able to handle the boundaries.
> 
> All a guy has to do is compliment her a few times and all of a sudden they think he cares about her.


Only the stupid ones, but going by your user name you only sort out the stupid women.

I "won't allow" my partner to have sex or an EA but he is a big boy and can have female friends as well as work with them. I am also able to control myself around men, shock horror some of us have morals without having to be told what to do.


----------



## over20

Holland said:


> Only the stupid ones, but going by your user name you only sort out the stupid women.
> 
> I "won't allow" my partner to have sex or an EA but he is a big boy and can have female friends as well as work with them. I am also able to control myself around men, shock horror some of us have morals without having to be told what to do.


Do not judge his post...he has every right to post his POV as well as you do.....fair is fair


----------



## Holland

over20 said:


> Do not judge his post...he has every right to post his POV as well as you do.....fair is fair


Yeah but you think it is OK for him to insult most women saying they are not smart enough to think or control themselves. 

What's your stake in it all O20, you are being very *Frank *about this.


----------



## over20

Holland said:


> Only the stupid ones, but going by your user name you only sort out the stupid women.
> 
> I "won't allow" my partner to have sex or an EA but he is a big boy and can have female friends as well as work with them. I am also able to control myself around men, shock horror some of us have morals without having to be told what to do.


Holland he is allowed to his views as you are yours....


----------



## Holland

It is not up to you to say who has what rights on an online forum.


----------



## over20

Holland said:


> Yeah but you think it is OK for him to insult most women saying they are not smart enough to think or control themselves.
> 
> What's your stake in it all O20, you are being very *Frank *about this.


I will put this on the table...most women do not like me because I am very pro male...I am very tired of the sex wars, I am tired of the nazi feminists agenda......I do not male bash...All that being said....I do have the intelligence to say that men and women will usually disagree on this topic.......mostly because women DO NOT UNDERSTAND MALE SEXUALITY.


----------



## over20

Holland said:


> It is not up to you to say who has what rights on an online forum.


I don't make the rules.....this is a very public internet forum and we are all welcome here...the good, bad and ugly.


----------



## Holland

over20 said:


> I will put this on the table...most women do not like me because I am very pro male...I am very tired of the sex wars, I am tired of the nazi feminists agenda......I do not male bash...All that being said....I do have the intelligence to say that men and women will usually disagree on this topic.......mostly because women DO NOT UNDERSTAND MALE SEXUALITY.


Totally disagree with you. Even in this little thread there are both men/women supporting both sides and disagreeing with the other side. It is not all of one gender having a specific POV. People disagree, it is not a gender specific topic.

And you may be surprised that many women DO understand male sexuality but are also able to set up their own boundaries and stick to them with the need for a man to control their behaviour.


----------



## John Lee

"Blue Pill or Red Pill" is almost certainly the same guy as Redpill, who was just banned. Obnoxious troll.


----------



## over20

Holland said:


> Totally disagree with you. Even in this little thread there are both men/women supporting both sides and disagreeing with the other side. It is not all of one gender having a specific POV. People disagree, it is not a gender specific topic.
> 
> And you may be surprised that many women DO understand male sexuality but are also able to set up their own boundaries and stick to them with the need for a man to control their behaviour.


What do you mean by a man to have to control their behavior?......


----------



## AliceA

Blue Pill or Red Pill? said:


> I won't allow my wife to have any male friends. I think most females are too emotional to be able to handle the boundaries.
> 
> All a guy has to do is compliment her a few times and all of a sudden they think he cares about her.


I know this'll be a shock, but I think you're old enough now to be told... men have emotions too, unless they're a psychopath of course.

How anyone could like your post is beyond me.


----------



## over20

Holland said:


> Totally disagree with you. Even in this little thread there are both men/women supporting both sides and disagreeing with the other side. It is not all of one gender having a specific POV. People disagree, it is not a gender specific topic.
> 
> And you may be surprised that many women DO understand male sexuality but are also able to set up their own boundaries and stick to them with the need for a man to control their behaviour.


Once again...we all can agree do disagree...there is no harm in ending an argument on a fair note.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

TAM stories learned met that most cheating is NOT done by opposite sex friends as mentioned in this thread.

It is most of the time a person not in the normal friend zone.

The neighbor, the coworker, the boss, the client, the gym coach, the co exerciser, the masseur, the co parents at school, the student, the teacher. That's were the danger comes from.

So yeah, people can have opposite friends i.m.o., but new friends always need to be looked into by the spouse. And monitored for how a new relation develops. Once in the 'old friend' group there can be trust, has to be trust.

But no boundary will prevent everybody from everything.


----------



## Theseus

lonelyhusband321 said:


> NO opposite sex friends is the only policy that would be completely foolproof. That policy would have saved a great number of marriages, I'd bet!





Blue Pill or Red Pill? said:


> I won't allow my wife to have any male friends. I think most females are too emotional to be able to handle the boundaries.


OK, this may shock both of you, but since up to *60%* of women are attracted to other women, a policy of no male friends is hardly "foolproof". The only foolproof method would be to ban your wife from having any friends at all! 


More women experimenting with bisexuality - Health - Sexual health | NBC News

Bad Dads May Have Led to Women's Hetero-flexibility | LiveScience

Why Are So Many Girls Lesbian or Bisexual? | Psychology Today

More than half of women are bi-curious and attracted to other women | Mail Online


----------



## AliceA

Theseus said:


> OK, this may shock both of you, but since up to *60%* of women are attracted to other women, a policy of no male friends is hardly "foolproof". The only foolproof method would be to ban your wife from having any friends at all!
> 
> 
> More women experimenting with bisexuality - Health - Sexual health | NBC News
> 
> Bad Dads May Have Led to Women's Hetero-flexibility | LiveScience
> 
> Why Are So Many Girls Lesbian or Bisexual? | Psychology Today
> 
> More than half of women are bi-curious and attracted to other women | Mail Online


Well, just from the titles:

1) A married woman would be cheating if experimenting with bisexuality without the knowledge and approval of her partner

2) A married woman doesn't suddenly wake up one day and think, "I had a bad dad, I think I'm going to be bisexual"

3) So many girls being bisexual or lesbian doesn't mean a happily married woman is suddenly going to turn into one

4) If they're attracted to women then they were always attracted to women


----------



## NextTimeAround

See_Listen_Love said:


> TAM stories learned met that most cheating is NOT done by opposite sex friends as mentioned in this thread.
> 
> It is most of the time a person not in the normal friend zone.
> 
> The neighbor, the coworker, the boss, the client, the gym coach, *the co exerciser*, the masseur, *the co parents at school, *the student, the teacher. That's were the danger comes from.
> 
> So yeah, people can have opposite friends i.m.o., but new friends always need to be looked into by the spouse. And monitored for how a new relation develops. Once in the 'old friend' group there can be trust, has to be trust.
> 
> But no boundary will prevent everybody from everything.


and you don't call those a form of friendship.

The cover of "friendship" is great. Call someone, anyone "just a friend" and most likely you will have disarmed your partner. You'll be able to hang out with him / her and your partner won't or at least feels that they shouldn't get worried because after all, they're JUST friends.

Stop and think about how often and how many different meanings the word "friend" has.

And let's be honest with ourselves, there are a few things that we would not mind our partner doing with a same sex friend, like taking a trip just the two of them. But Are you going to let your wife do that with her male BFF?


----------



## TAM2013

jaharthur said:


> Who said anything about "sharing" one's wife? In my circles, proper men have respect for other women as people rather than as potential sex partners.


I respect them as people and I respect there needs to be distance. It's showing more disrespect to string them along and it's extremely disrespectful to your own woman.

That is of course assuming your own woman is playing fair. If she ain't, give her a taste of her own medicine. They really don't like that.


----------



## Caribbean Man

alexm said:


> Now I'm just trying to find out why you're being an *******, in addition to why any of that would have a bearing on your relationship.
> 
> If you love somebody, you love somebody. If you trust them, you trust them. Whether they like men, women, or both. What's the difference?
> 
> I'm going to go out on a limb here, and assume (you know what they say...) that you are Christian? Homophobic? Both? Or just very conservative?


Oh really?

So let's apply the same rule to your situation.

You loved your ex wife but she had sex with multiple men. That changed the dynamic of your relationship so you divorced her. You didn't want to be married to someone who was having sex with other men beside you.
Did that make you a Christian , Homophobic or a Conservative?
How about a self righteous liberal ?
Does divorcing your partner for changing into something you are not prepared to accept , which alters the dynamics of the relationship make you narrow minded?

But you divorced you first wife , didn't you?
So how does that make you a loving open minded liberal and me a narrow minded homophobic conservative Christian ?

Sounds hypocritical to me.

You divorced you wife because she had changed into a different person which changed the dynamics of your marriage.
I will divorce my wife if she changed into a different person which changes the dynamics of our marriage.

I'm sure you love your ex wife and I love my wife.

In case you still don't get it ,
Your hypothesis is out of sync with my reality. I don't live in that type of world where " love " forces people to accept other peoples preferences without any regard to their own happiness.

But hey, if that works for your present relationship Alex , then I'm liberal enough , and I fully support your freedom of choice.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Theseus said:


> OK, this may shock both of you, but since up to *60%* of women are attracted to other women, a policy of no male friends is hardly "foolproof". The only foolproof method would be to ban your wife from having any friends at all!
> 
> 
> More women experimenting with bisexuality - Health - Sexual health | NBC News
> 
> Bad Dads May Have Led to Women's Hetero-flexibility | LiveScience
> 
> Why Are So Many Girls Lesbian or Bisexual? | Psychology Today
> 
> More than half of women are bi-curious and attracted to other women | Mail Online


Theseus, 

You are a Christian, you would be familiar with the term exegesis.
There is a word , Eisegesis that the antonym to Exegesis .

Your logic is eisegetical.

One bit of advice .

Whenever you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.


----------



## Caribbean Man

breeze said:


> Well, just from the titles:
> 
> 1) A married woman would be cheating if experimenting with bisexuality without the knowledge and approval of her partner
> 
> 2) A married woman doesn't suddenly wake up one day and think, "I had a bad dad, I'm think I'm going to be bisexual"
> 
> 3) So many girls being bisexual or lesbian doesn't mean a happily married woman is suddenly going to turn into one
> 
> 4) If they're attracted to women then they were always attracted to women



Just wanted to say that I like your signature.

I've looked at a few of Thomas Sowell's discussions on Youtube and I think he is a brilliant free thinker.
Most of his theories on economics , gender and race are historically accurate , based in fact and sound logic.

I'm presently thinking of ordering his book, " _Economic Facts and Fallacies "_ and " _Intellectuals and Race_."


----------



## Theseus

Caribbean Man said:


> Theseus,
> 
> You are a Christian, you would be familiar with the term exegesis.
> There is a word , Eisegesis that the antonym to Exegesis .
> 
> Your logic is eisegetical.


CM, do you have anything to say in this thread that is actually related to the topic at hand? This isn't a religious discussion.

If you disagree with the links I provided, either give us some reasons why, or drop it. That's how adults debate. 



> One bit of advice .
> 
> Whenever you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.


One bit of advice.

This isn't poker, so you can't win arguments here by bluffing. Next time, present a coherent argument instead.


----------



## Theseus

breeze said:


> Well, just from the titles:
> 
> 1) A married woman would be cheating if experimenting with bisexuality without the knowledge and approval of her partner
> 
> 2) A married woman doesn't suddenly wake up one day and think, "I had a bad dad, I'm think I'm going to be bisexual"
> 
> 3) So many girls being bisexual or lesbian doesn't mean a happily married woman is suddenly going to turn into one
> 
> 4) If they're attracted to women then they were always attracted to women


Except for #4 (many people do change their sexual preferences over time), that's all true, but irrelevant to the point I was making.

The point is, if you ban your wife from opposite sex friends you have no guarantee she won't cheat with a female friend. So if you feel so strongly about it, you need to ban all friends period! 

With men, you might be safe. Male sexuality is far less fluid, and they overwhelmingly tend to be straight or gay, with very few truly bisexual.

Or you could, you know, just trust your partner.


----------



## Jellybeans

over20 said:


> I don't make the rules.....this is a very public internet forum and we are all welcome here...the good, bad and ugly.


No. Trolls are not welcome here. He/It is a troll that keeps coming back with new names and getting banned for it. Hardly original. But maybe you think that's cool.


----------



## over20

Jellybeans said:


> No. Trolls are not welcome here. He/It is a troll that keeps coming back with new names and getting banned for it. Hardly original. But maybe you think that's cool.


I don't think it is cool. I could care less but it does bring out the best and worst in the members here on TAM as to how we respond to a troll and it's topic presented.


----------



## BostonBruins32

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> Quite often, new partners get jealous and the coupled friend rightfully chooses their new partner over their friend.
> 
> It happened to me. I dated a guy for about three months when I was 19. We stayed friends for nearly ten years until he met his now wife. Our friendship made her uncomfortable, even though it was strictly platonic.
> 
> My friend chose his then girlfriend over our long friendship. Though I miss him, I understand and respect his decision. I stay away.


I wish my wife understood that. She still insists on keeping her ex within reaching distance (facebook friends with occassional talk) despite the fact that they were together for 2 years, over 11 years ago. And we have been together 11 years and her ex has been with his now wife for 10 years. 

I see it alot. The only thing I can think of is that these exes are contingency plans. Yep I sound pessimistic, but I think if you research it a bit, wayward spouses or unhappy spouses will turn to exes first when they reach outside thier marriage for emotional or physica intimacy. Its far easier to remember the good ole days if you are going through a rough patch in the current days.


----------



## Jellybeans

over20 said:


> I could care less but it does bring out the best and worst in the members here on TAM as to how we respond to a troll and it's topic presented.


But you apparently did not know it was a troll. So what you are saying is nonsensical. 

Some trolls come here to bait. And it works... til they get hit with a fly switch hitter.

Baiting is so déclassé.


----------



## AliceA

Theseus said:


> Except for #4 (many people do change their sexual preferences over time), that's all true, but irrelevant to the point I was making.
> 
> The point is, if you ban your wife from opposite sex friends you have no guarantee she won't cheat with a female friend. So if you feel so strongly about it, you need to ban all friends period!
> 
> With men, you might be safe. Male sexuality is far less fluid, and they overwhelmingly tend to be straight or gay, with very few truly bisexual.
> 
> Or you could, you know, just trust your partner.


There are no guarantees with anything, boundaries or no boundaries. If someone wants to 'ban' their wife from having male friends, (good luck to them if that's not what she wants too), are you really going to say, "well, you HAVE to ban female friends too then!". If you're trying to point out that it's wrong, then trying to back it up with more blanket banning is a little counter productive don't you think?

I think you were trying to make a point to CM that you didn't agree with his thoughts on how he'd react if his wife changed her sexuality. You're trying to tell someone they are wrong for how they *think* they'd react in a hypothetical situation which I've been trying to point out is fairly unlikely to start with. Maybe it's just me, but I see this as a little ridiculous tbh.


----------



## Jellybeans

BostonBruins32 said:


> I wish my wife understood that. She still insists on keeping her ex within reaching distance (facebook friends with occassional talk) despite the fact that they were together for 2 years, over 11 years ago. A


Yeah that would annoy me, too. Is she cool with you being pals with your exes?

Opposite sex friend is one thing; past romantic lovers... tread carefully!


----------



## over20

I agree with you. True, I still can't notice a troll right away. The OP is not a troll though.


----------



## lovelygirl

I'm not against OSF (as long as there are healthy boundaries and as long as it works for both parties) but I wonder what could two OSF have in common that makes them spend so much time together that it becomes uncomfortable for the SO, unless there are feelings involved and an EA is in the air. 

I am single and I don't spend a considerable amount of time with an OSF unless there's an interest beyond friendship. 
What is there to talk about with an OSF? (if it's just pure friendship) 
Pure OSF don't need to meet each other on daily basis. I'm okay with meeting maybe once or twice a year to catch up on the new stuff but what's the point of meeting so often? 

Going out as a group/several couples would be more appropriate and more fun, IMHO.


----------



## Jellybeans

John Lee said:


> "Blue Pill or Red Pill" is almost certainly the same guy as Redpill, who was just banned. Obnoxious troll.


Not even original! :rofl:



Holland said:


> And you may be surprised that many women DO understand male sexuality but are also able to set up their own boundaries and stick to them with the need for a man to control their behaviour.


:iagree:

Womenz can haz boundaries.


----------



## AliceA

Adding to my point previously, if we're going to use as an argument for having opposite sex friends the fact that a person can change their sexuality, therefore that would mean same sex friends should also be out, then we could also argue that because some people get into bestiality, that all animals should be out. Some people even commit incest, so all family should be out. May as well add to that all things people *may* become sexually interested in, therefore all phallic shaped objects are out. Somehow this method for arguing the point against boundaries for opposite sex friends just doesn't seem to work for me.


----------



## TAM2013

BostonBruins32 said:


> I wish my wife understood that. She still insists on keeping her ex within reaching distance (facebook friends with occassional talk) despite the fact that they were together for 2 years, over 11 years ago. And we have been together 11 years and her ex has been with his now wife for 10 years.


I'd have nipped that one right in the bud, mate. He's an orbiting chump. A c0ck in a jar. Validation for them both. It sounds horrible because it is.

Seriously, contact his wife. See if you two can't have a little thing going on of your own. Tell your wife outright what you're up to and rub her nose right in it. She's disrespecting you first, so you should come back at her double hard. You'll get his back up, as well.


----------



## BostonBruins32

Jellybeans said:


> Yeah that would annoy me, too. Is she cool with you being pals with your exes?
> 
> Opposite sex friend is one thing; past romantic lovers... tread carefully!


I cut my exes years ago. exes for a reason. dont need to chat with someone who I had sex with not named my wife.

I do know my wife has said she would be uncomfortable with it, because in the early part of our relationship, I struggled choosing between which to stay with. This struggle lasted probably a few months, so my wife (whom i obviously chose) was hurt by it.


----------



## alexm

Caribbean Man said:


> Oh really?
> 
> So let's apply the same rule to your situation.
> 
> You loved your ex wife but she had sex with multiple men. That changed the dynamic of your relationship so you divorced her. You didn't want to be married to someone who was having sex with other men beside you.
> Did that make you a Christian , Homophobic or a Conservative?
> How about a self righteous liberal ?
> Does divorcing your partner for changing into something you are not prepared to accept , which alters the dynamics of the relationship make you narrow minded?
> 
> But you divorced you first wife , didn't you?
> So how does that make you a loving open minded liberal and me a narrow minded homophobic conservative Christian ?
> 
> Sounds hypocritical to me.
> 
> You divorced you wife because she had changed into a different person which changed the dynamics of your marriage.
> I will divorce my wife if she changed into a different person which changes the dynamics of our marriage.
> 
> I'm sure you love your ex wife and I love my wife.
> 
> In case you still don't get it ,
> Your hypothesis is out of sync with my reality. I don't live in that type of world where " love " forces people to accept other peoples preferences without any regard to their own happiness.
> 
> But hey, if that works for your present relationship Alex , then I'm liberal enough , and I fully support your freedom of choice.


Aw, come on man. My ex wife cheating isn't the same as your/my wife realizing she's attracted to women.

My ex wife would have cheated on me no matter what rules I lay down. That's my point.

I could have kept her from having male friends, sure. But I couldn't keep her from the gym, or going to the store, or from being on the internet - all places where she met guys.

re: your (or my) wife realizing she's bisexual - that's a different argument. I am trying to understand your mindset behind why this would automatically constitute divorce, that's all. My only conclusion is that you think it's "wrong" for somebody to be attracted to the same sex.

If your wife declared that she's attracted to women as well as men, so what? She's still the same woman you married (and trust). I don't understand why you think that would be a deal breaker. If she's into men and men only, you trust her to not cheat on you. But if she's into both, you wouldn't?

Now that line of thinking shows me that it's not your wife you wouldn't trust, rather that it's the lifestyle (glbt) that makes you raise an eyebrow.

As an aside, CM, you really need to stop with the snarky comments in, and at the end of your posts. The "do you understand now?" and "in case you don't get it" etc. When you are writing your posts and you include language like that, it comes across as you being frustrated and "above everybody else". We all know how intelligent you are, and you don't have to talk to people who disagree with you as though they are lesser. You have your (rather conservative) views on subjects, and that's totally fine. I disagree with a lot of it, and that's fine, too. Life would be boring if we all saw eye to eye. But there's never a need to essentially finish your posts with what amounts to "shut up dummy, I'm smarter than you".


----------



## Caribbean Man

Theseus said:


> CM, do you have anything to say in this thread that is actually related to the topic at hand? This isn't a religious discussion.
> 
> If you disagree with the links I provided, either give us some reasons why, or drop it. That's how adults debate.
> 
> 
> 
> One bit of advice.
> 
> This isn't poker, so you can't win arguments here by bluffing. Next time, present a coherent argument instead.


Well I just thought I'd use a term that you , being a bible quoting Christian would understand , and maybe you would have taken a closer look at your arguments.

So here goes.
Definition of EISEGESIS

: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) *by reading into it one's own ideas* — compare exegesis.

In other words ,using confirmatory bias in a debate.

Confirmatory bias is simply allowing your feelings, beliefs and perception to cloud your view in spite of the obvious realities.

So here's an example.

If a man is sexually attracted to young under age girls or boys , in spite of the fact that sex with them is illegal, he would vehemently argue that such a law is illogical , prohibitive and impractical. He would argue from a scientific point of view that even our closest descendants , the monkeys , have sex with their young , to support his bias for paedophilla.

Your bisexual argument is nothing but a red herring in this discussion, statistics et al.

So here's a direct question;

Do you have a preference for open marriages?

Do you think that your preference for open marriages can influence your perception of the necessity of proper marital boundaries in monogamous marriages ?


----------



## Caribbean Man

alexm said:


> Aw, come on man. My ex wife cheating isn't the same as your/my wife realizing she's attracted to women.
> 
> My ex wife would have cheated on me no matter what rules I lay down. That's my point.
> 
> I could have kept her from having male friends, sure. But I couldn't keep her from the gym, or going to the store, or from being on the internet - all places where she met guys.
> 
> re: your (or my) wife realizing she's bisexual - that's a different argument. I am trying to understand your mindset behind why this would automatically constitute divorce, that's all. My only conclusion is that you think it's "wrong" for somebody to be attracted to the same sex.
> 
> If your wife declared that she's attracted to women as well as men, so what? She's still the same woman you married (and trust). I don't understand why you think that would be a deal breaker. If she's into men and men only, you trust her to not cheat on you. But if she's into both, you wouldn't?
> 
> Now that line of thinking shows me that it's not your wife you wouldn't trust, rather that it's the lifestyle (glbt) that makes you raise an eyebrow.
> 
> As an aside, CM, you really need to stop with the snarky comments in, and at the end of your posts. The "do you understand now?" and "in case you don't get it" etc. When you are writing your posts and you include language like that, it comes across as you being frustrated and "above everybody else". We all know how intelligent you are, and you don't have to talk to people who disagree with you as though they are lesser. You have your (rather conservative) views on subjects, and that's totally fine. I disagree with a lot of it, and that's fine, too. Life would be boring if we all saw eye to eye. But there's never a need to essentially finish your posts with what amounts to "shut up dummy, I'm smarter than you".


Alex,

You're trying to change the argument by shifting the goalposts, and then trying to play the victim role.

I laid out an analogy that showed CLEAR PARALLELS in your case and my response to your hypothesis.
Then you say you disagree that they are not the same because you FEEL that I'm homophobic.
Is a person is racist because they prefer to be married to someone of their own race?
Then how does a heterosexual person preferring to be married to a heterosexual partner make them homophobic?

Logic Fail. 

You keep trying to project your own improper motives to my arguments.


----------



## alexm

Caribbean Man said:


> Alex,
> 
> You're trying to change the argument by shifting the goalposts, and then trying to play the victim role.
> 
> I laid out an analogy that showed CLEAR PARALLELS in your case and my response to your hypothesis.
> Then you say you disagree that they are not the same because you FEEL that I'm homophobic.
> You keep trying to project your own improper motives to my arguments.


This thread is (was?) about opposite sex friends. Somebody brought up the possibility of being bisexual (rightly or wrongly). You came in and stated that if your wife was to announce she liked women as well, you'd divorce. I asked why. You said because it would change the dynamic. I asked why. You have not responded. Instead, you pointed out that my ex wife cheated on me, and she had opposite sex friends. I didn't disagree, but I pointed out that she met men elsewhere. She met her current husband on the internet.

My statement through all of this was that it's really dependant on the people involved as to whether OSF are okay or not, and either argument is valid.

You brought bisexuality as grounds for divorce into this and haven't expanded any further than "it would change the dynamic". I asked you valid questions that I would like to know your answer to, and NOT so I can debunk them and attempt to make you look bad.

There's no such thing as a healthy discussion with you here. It ALWAYS ends up with you being sarcastic, talking down to people, and the little eye roll emoticon. It's pointless. It's like you randomly choose a topic to jump into and debate until you "win".


----------



## NextTimeAround

alexm said:


> This thread is (was?) about opposite sex friends. Somebody brought up the possibility of being bisexual (rightly or wrongly). You came in and stated that if your wife was to announce she liked women as well, you'd divorce. I asked why. You said because it would change the dynamic. I asked why. You have not responded. Instead, you pointed out that my ex wife cheated on me, and she had opposite sex friends. I didn't disagree, but I pointed out that she met men elsewhere. She met her current husband on the internet.
> 
> My statement through all of this was that it's really dependant on the people involved as to whether OSF are okay or not, and either argument is valid.
> 
> You brought bisexuality as grounds for divorce into this and haven't expanded any further than "it would change the dynamic". I asked you valid questions that I would like to know your answer to, and NOT so I can debunk them and attempt to make you look bad.
> 
> There's no such thing as a healthy discussion with you here. It ALWAYS ends up with you being sarcastic, talking down to people, and the little eye roll emoticon. It's pointless. It's like you randomly choose a topic to jump into and debate until you "win".



and what is the point of all your vitriol?


----------



## lovelygirl

I still don't get why divorcing someone over their sexuality is wrong.
If I found out my husband was gay, I would divorce him. What's wrong with that?

I think I would do the same if I found out he was bi. I wouldn't look at him the same way.

I agree with CM, it would change the dynamic in our relationship/marriage.


----------



## Caribbean Man

alexm said:


> You brought bisexuality as grounds for divorce into this and haven't expanded any further than "it would change the dynamic". I asked you valid questions that I would like to know your answer to, and NOT so I can debunk them and attempt to make you look bad.
> 
> There's no such thing as a healthy discussion with you here. It ALWAYS ends up with you being sarcastic, talking down to people, and the little eye roll emoticon. It's pointless. It's like you randomly choose a topic to jump into and debate until you "win".


Lol,

You forgot to mention the part where you said I was being an *******, and where you went out on a limb and suggested that I was Homophobic, Christian and Conservative.

Of course I don't think that you said those things to make me look bad, homophobic conservative Christians are good people that are well respected in the USA.

I * get* what you're saying, I really do!

You just wanted " _understand my position better_."

Lol,
Sorry about the misunderstanding!


----------



## ScarletBegonias

lovelygirl said:


> I still don't get why divorcing someone over their sexuality is wrong.
> If I found out my husband was gay, I would divorce him. What's wrong with that?
> 
> I think I would do the same if I found out he was bi. I wouldn't look at him the same way.


I'd like to believe I'd rise above things and still feel the same about my husband.But I know I wouldn't.It would eat at me and I'd end up divorcing him in the end if he said he was bi.  

If he came out as gay,what would be the point in remaining married? I'd still be his close friend if he wanted that but why would he even want to stay married if my parts aren't what he's into ya know?


----------



## NextTimeAround

lovelygirl said:


> I'm not against OSF (as long as there are healthy boundaries and as long as it works for both parties) but I wonder what could two OSF have in common that makes them spend so much time together that it becomes uncomfortable for the SO, unless there are feelings involved and an EA is in the air.
> 
> I am single and I don't spend a considerable amount of time with an OSF unless there's an interest beyond friendship.
> What is there to talk about with an OSF? (if it's just pure friendship)
> Pure OSF don't need to meet each other on daily basis. I'm okay with meeting maybe once or twice a year to catch up on the new stuff but what's the point of meeting so often?
> 
> Going out as a group/several couples would be more appropriate and more fun, IMHO.



This is the problem with our society, the word "friend" has lots of meanings. And friendships have a lot of different looks.

This is why I list the things that I would not want to happen between my partner and another female. If they can observe all that and still be friends, well, then that's ok.

My fiance had a just friend ex. I never met her but:

1. My fiance shared some intimate information about us with her.
2. She gave him relationship advice, including to drop me.
3. OF course since I never met her, that means they went out together without offering me a choice.
4. HE was more generous with her, this is one example of someone prioritising a third party over their spouse / partner.

After he told me about her, I know they went to a couple of concerts together. Not because he told me but because she always "liked" the concerts that he mentioned on his wall that I didn't go to with him.

She had a dinner party that she invited me to. He never told me about it. We were together the night of the party so I know he didn't go.

another 4 months went by before I raised the issue with him. I don't think they saw each other during that time, but they were in touch circling around each about possibilities to get together.

I decided that if he met up with her again, then our relationship would not be significantly different from an FB or FWB. So why should I limit myself to him? Which is exactly how I put it to him. and then unwound her from his life.

She just came across as someone who would not back down. She was used to his getting his credit card out for her and her friends.... as evidenced by a same day invitation (in the afternoon no less) to her b-day party and a text message at 11pm (closing time for the pubs, you know) with the exact words"Why didn't you come?"

I don't plan to be exclusive in a relationship to a man who is happy playing a wimp and getting his chain yanked by one or more other women. And then these same women will have the nerve to treat you like some insignificant accessory to the relationship........

so this points to another aspect of OSFs, and that is they go wrong quite often because there is a certain type of woman who pursues them.


----------



## Caribbean Man

ScarletBegonias said:


> I'd like to believe I'd rise above things and still feel the same about my husband.But I know I wouldn't.It would eat at me and I'd end up divorcing him in the end if he said he was bi.
> 
> If he came out as gay,what would be the point in remaining married? I'd still be his close friend if he wanted that but why would he even want to stay married if my parts aren't what he's into ya know?



It's as ssimple as that.

The dynamics in th relationship has changed , and it's to _your _disadvantage.

As to why anyone would force someone to stay in a marriage where the person has drastically changed into something that affects them negatively , puzzles me.

That isn't love.


----------



## TAM2013

NextTimeAround said:


> I don't plan to exclusive in a relationship to a man who is happy playing a wimp and getting chain yanked by one or more other women.


This is more like it!


----------



## lovelygirl

NextTimeAround said:


> This is the problem with our society, the word "friend" has lots of meanings. And friendships have a lot of different looks.
> 
> This is why I list the things that I would not want to happen between my partner and another female. If they can observe all that and still be friends, well, then that's ok.
> 
> My fiance had a just friend ex. I never met her but:
> 
> 1. My fiance shared some intimate information about us with her.
> 2. She gave him relationship advice, including to drop me.
> 3. OF course since I never met her, that means they went out together without offering me a choice.
> 4. HE was more generous with her, this is one example of someone prioritising a third party over their spouse / partner.
> 
> After he told me about her, I know they went to a couple of concerts together. Not because he told me but because she always "liked" the concerts that he mentioned on his wall that I didn't go to with him.
> 
> She had a dinner party that she invited me to. He never told me about it. We were together the night of the party so I know he didn't go.
> 
> another 4 months went by before I raised the issue with him. I don't think they saw each other during that time, but they were in touch circling around each about possibilities to get together.
> 
> I decided that if he met up with her again, then our relationship would not be significantly different from an FB or FWB. So why should I limit myself to him? Which is exactly how I put it to him. and then unwound her from his life.
> 
> She just came across as someone who would not back down. She was used to his getting his credit card out for her and her friends.... as evidenced by a same day invitation (in the afternoon no less) to her b-day party and a text message at 11pm (closing time for the pubs, you know) with the exact words"Why didn't you come?"
> 
> I don't plan to be exclusive in a relationship to a man who is happy playing a wimp and getting his chain yanked by one or more other women. And then these same women will have the nerve to treat you like some insignificant accessory to the relationship........
> 
> so this points to another aspect of OSFs, and that is they go wrong quite often because there is a certain type of woman who pursues them.


You've been tolerating him and been putting up with a lot.
I wonder why he's still your fiance. 
He excluded you from all the events with her and that was WAY UNFAIR! 
I guess he was going through an EA? 

I remember your story. 

I had a VERY close OSF who used to tell me very intimate details of his and his past gfs/current gf (depending on the time of speaking). I knew everything about his past/current relationship and it was something a bit uncomfortable. 

Nonetheless, I KNEW he felt some sort of sexual attraction for me and I felt the same way about it. 
We ended up in bed after 7 years of close friendship.


----------



## Wolf1974

BostonBruins32 said:


> I cut my exes years ago. exes for a reason. dont need to chat with someone who I had sex with not named my wife.
> 
> I do know my wife has said she would be uncomfortable with it, because in the early part of our relationship, I struggled choosing between which to stay with. This struggle lasted probably a few months, so my wife (whom i obviously chose) was hurt by it.


I gotcha....hear and agree with you but we aren't talking about our x lovers being in out lives...just opposite sex friends. I wouldn't have an x's in my life either as I agree with you they are x's for a reason. I also wouldn't want my GF to be hanging out with any of her x's either. But just someone who she has always just had a friendship with, no problem. 

It's seems that as we go on this thread, other than the bisexual departure, this has become about 2 different things. Opposite sex friends which some people are ok with and some aren't and x lovers, who I don't think is smart to have in your life at all. But I have one friends who does that as well. Talks to her x husband and x finance all the time. Her husband isn't bothered by it but would be a definite deal breaker for me


----------



## lovelygirl

Wolf1974 said:


> But I have one friends who does that as well. Talks to her x husband and x finance all the time. *Her husband isn't bothered *by it but would be a definite deal breaker for me


I'm amazed by the amount of very low boundaries and very high level of disrespect some people allow in their marriage/relationship.


----------



## Wolf1974

lovelygirl said:


> I'm amazed by the amount of very low boundaries and very high level of disrespect some people allow in their marriage/relationship.


Well you and me both. At her 40th was a huge birthday party and the number of people in that room who knew her intimately went off one hand. I couldn't be ok with that but her husband is so I respect his right to be comfortable with it......was interesting though


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

*Really?!*

I am glad that this thread has grown. However, I am dismayed at the amount of hijacking that has occurred.

The subject of this thread was *opposite sex friends in a marriage,* NOT having a gay or bisexual spouse. I don't even understand why that topic was brought up! If you want to talk about discovering a spouse is not straight, please start another thread and debate it there. Kindly refrain from hijacking *my *thread. That request is completely reasonable no? I did not expect this to become pages and pages and pages of arguing and putting other people down. :wtf:

I am a new member and I thought TAM was supposed to be a supportive space. In the short time that I have been here, I have been the target of harassment and projection. I have also had a thread taken off topic with people looking for a fight. This does not give me the best impression of TAM. 

I may need to have a moderator look at this thread as I am sure some rules have been broken several times.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

lovelygirl said:


> I'm amazed by the amount of very low boundaries and very high level of disrespect some people allow in their marriage/relationship.


:iagree::iagree: What I find even more amazing is the level of vitriol for people who have certain boundaries.


----------



## Jellybeans

*Re: Really?!*



CharlotteMcdougall said:


> I am glad that this thread has grown. However, I am dismayed at the amount of hijacking that has occurred.
> 
> The subject of this thread was *opposite sex friends in a marriage,* NOT having a gay or bisexual spouse. I don't even understand why that topic was brought up! If you want to talk about discovering a spouse is not straight, please start another thread and debate it there. Kindly refrain from hijacking *my *thread. That request is completely reasonable no? I did not expect this to become pages and pages and pages of arguing and putting other people down. :wtf:
> 
> I am a new member and I thought TAM was supposed to be a supportive space. In the short time that I have been here, I have been the target of harassment and projection. I have also had a thread taken off topic with people looking for a fight. *This does not give me the best impression of TAM. *
> 
> I may need to have a moderator look at this thread as I am sure some rules have been broken several times.


TAM Land isn't for everyone, I guess. Your thread is not the first that has been derailed. Many threads do end up going the way of other related issues. Your thread is also not the first Opposite Sex Friends on TAM (it's been done about 200 times on TAM). It is a topic that always brings out great conversation and various viewpoints. I realize you are new at TAM, your profile indicates that you joined only this month, so perhaps you aren't well-versed in how the climate is here, but this is hardly anything new. 

Besides the the troll that entered your thread, it's been pretty kosher here. Not everyone is going to agree in threads, in fact that is what makes TAM kind of fun. Differing opinions.

It's like that Katy Perry song "We fight, we break up. We kiss, we make up."


----------



## DoF

Agreed with most here. No opposite sex friends allowed.

Nothing to do with trust, it's simply not appropriate and disrespectful towards a loved one. It also creates unnecessary risk.

Also there is the whole thing of "can men ever be friends with a woman that they don't want to sleep with".

I have never seen that to be a case with any of my friends/people I've known over the years.

I'm also glad my wife realized this early on in our relationship.

As others have said, friend is a STRONG word and many people in our society have different opinions/importance of that word.

Acquaintances/co workers is a completely different story. That's simply going to happen no matter what.


----------



## John Lee

I think it bespeaks immaturity to be unable to understand the difference between having self-imposed boundaries and having someone else "control" you.

When I say I don't have opposite sex friends, I don't mean that I never have conversations with women, or that I don't have any women that I consider "friends" (for example, old college friends we keep in touch with, other parents I know who are part of couples we are friends with, etc.) But what I don't do is engage in any kind of intimate one-on-one relationship with women other than my wife -- no going for coffee together, no long deep conversations alone, etc. Those are the things that tend to lead to emotions developing beyond "friendship." It has nothing to do with "trust" it has to do with understanding the nature of feelings -- you can't control them, you can only deprive them of the soil in which they're likely to grow.


----------



## Jellybeans

It's all about boundaries.


----------



## Caribbean Man

*Re: Really?!*



CharlotteMcdougall said:


> I am glad that this thread has grown. However, I am dismayed at the amount of hijacking that has occurred.
> 
> The subject of this thread was *opposite sex friends in a marriage,* NOT having a gay or bisexual spouse. I don't even understand why that topic was brought up! If you want to talk about discovering a spouse is not straight, please start another thread and debate it there. Kindly refrain from hijacking *my *thread. That request is completely reasonable no? I did not expect this to become pages and pages and pages of arguing and putting other people down. :wtf:
> 
> I am a new member and I thought TAM was supposed to be a supportive space. In the short time that I have been here, I have been the target of harassment and projection. I have also had a thread taken off topic with people looking for a fight. This does not give me the best impression of TAM.
> 
> I may need to have a moderator look at this thread as I am sure some rules have been broken several times.



I apologize for my part in the derailment of your thread.
I think that no matter how many times we've had this discussion on TAM it is always an appropriate and relevant one!
So I'm glad you started it and hope we can continue discussing it.

I am sorry for my contribution to the thread hijack.


----------



## Theseus

breeze said:


> Adding to my point previously, if we're going to use as an argument against having opposite sex friends the fact that a person can change their sexuality, therefore that would mean same sex friends should also be out, then we could also argue that because some people get into bestiality, that all animals should be out. Some people even commit incest, so all family should be out. May as well add to that all things people *may* become sexually interested in, therefore all phallic shaped objects are out. Somehow this method for arguing the point against boundaries for opposite sex friends just doesn't seem to work for me.


:lol: 

Curious why it doesn't work for you, since ironically you are now explaining MY argument very well! (although we could do without your sarcastic mention of phallic objects). Now maybe you start to see how ludicrous these bannings are. Personally, I think trust is the better option. 

Let's say you married someone who can't possibly be faithful. From reading this forum for awhile (and other sources) here is my unscientific estimate on who they would cheat with:

30% chance they will cheat with an acquaintance (usually someone they met online)
20% chance they will cheat with a co-worker
20% chance they will cheat with family member (BIL, FIL, cousin, etc)
20% chance they will cheat with a opposite sex friend 
10% chance they will cheat with a same sex friend
@1% chance they will "cheat" by molesting your children. 

So you really want to go with what is *likely* to happen? Then blocking your spouse from Internet and cell phone use and not allowing them to have a job would be FAR more useful boundary in keeping your marriage adultery free than banning OS friends. In fact, you will have to keep an eye on your own family members too!

While this might work in a place like Saudi Arabia, that doesn't mean it's a healthy way to live.


----------



## owl6118

*Re: Really?!*



CharlotteMcdougall said:


> The subject of this thread was *opposite sex friends in a marriage,* ... .


OK, I'll play, but I want to state this as clearly as I possibly can:

I do not think I am typical in this one area, and I do not hold myself out as an example to anyone about this.

Alles klar, Herr Kommisar?

I am a straight married man. However, all my life from adolescence onward, the overwhleming majority of my friends have been women. I just connect better with them. I find them more interesting conversationalists. I enjoy their company. My friendship life is, to a first order of approximation, one big mess 'o opposite sex friendships.

BUT, and this is a huge BUT, I also have a very strong sense of boundaries. Until I started reading in TAM, I didn't really know what they were or how they worked, they were unconscious. But I now realize there is actually a huge list. Since I entered my relationship with my wife:

1. No lunches alone with female workmates. Groups of three or more. And anyway, I usually lunch alone at my desk.

2. Don't do happy hour or after-work socializing.

3. No long phone calls. In fact, any phone call is rare and is usually limited to setting up a social calendar engagement.

4. No discussing issues in my marriage with female friends, no matter how long I've known them or how dear they are to me. The first rule of marriage club is, you do not talk smack about your marriage, at least not to other women.

5. Much higher level of scrutiny and care with making dead sure friendships with the handful of still-single women are firmly platonic. 

6. No secret friends. My wife knows all these woman, in most cases has for going on 30 years, as we were all friends together back to college. She is as close or closer to many of them than I am. Any female friendships I have added since our marriage, she is included in, though sometimes she chooses not to pursue anything more than an acquaintanceship for lack of common interests. 


And there are a lot more rules I suppose that I haven't thought of. But really, the list of rules is not the point. What is the point is that I love the friendship of women, BUT, I am also about the most loyal spouse on the planet. All my life, my desire was to bond with one special someone. I didn't enjoy dating, I never enjoyed playing the field.  The idea of betraying the woman I have promised my life loyalty to horrifies me. My entire sense of empathy recoils from the very thought. And I let those feelings rule my behavior and judgement.

My wife is OK with all this. It helps that she is, quite possibly, the most grounded and least jealous woman on the planet.

But you know what? It is not a two-way street. I am not equally comfortable with her having intense male friendships--because I am a guy and I damn well know how most guys are hard-wired, even if they botched that step on me personally on the assembly line. Luckily, she doesn't really have any, and doesn't feel any lack.

Hypocritical much? Sure! But this our life and our marriage in the real world, not law or philosophy class. Not everything has to be mirror image logically consistent, as long as it works, and we are both in a place of comfort and security and trust.

Again--I do not recommend this or advocate it. I guess I am just noting that humans fall on a bell curve, and on this one issue, I am the outlier.


----------



## owl6118

lovelygirl said:


> I'm amazed by the amount of very low boundaries and very high level of disrespect some people allow in their marriage/relationship.


Not everyone is wired the same way. Behavior that is profoundly disrespectful in one marriage may not be in another. You can see my experience in a different post I just made.

Loose analogy: I'm an alcoholic. I can't drink. Period. Unless I want to destroy myself and my marriage and harm everyone I love, of course.

Doesn't follow that others can't drink or that it's necessarily disrespectful if they do. And circling back again, it also doesn't follow that because most people drink responsibly, I can too. 

It's a life an death issue for those of us wired one way, no big deal for the huge majority wired the other way.


----------



## owl6118

Sorry to thread barrage, but one last thought occurred to me (sorry again, but this is, to me, a VERY interesting subject):

I suspect the reason I am comfortable with my female friends, and my wife is also comfortable with my having female friends, is that neither of us are relying on my virtue to keep things on the up and up.

Virtue, somehow, would imply that it was adherence to a code of conduct out of abstract love of right living that keeps things on the level.

It isn't. 

It's that I am really just pretty uxorious, and really just not interested in affairs, EA or PA or otherwise. I'm just---not. And my wife knows me well enough to know that its true.

I think what she really trusts is my 100% reliable ability to not be interested in what I am not, in fact, interested in: a list which includes NASCAR, knitting, most television, and EAs and PAs.


----------



## John Lee

owl6118 said:


> I think what she really trusts is my 100% reliable ability to not be interested in what I am not, in fact, interested in: a list which includes NASCAR, knitting, most television, and EAs and PAs.


EAs are not an "interest" -- they tend to sneak up on you. That's why boundaries are important. It sounds like you have some, which is good.


----------



## owl6118

John Lee said:


> EAs are not an "interest" -- they tend to sneak up on you. That's why boundaries are important. It sounds like you have some, which is good.


You're right. I am oversimplifying.

The boundaries come from another place: empathy. I have always had a lot of it. I know a lot of men who do, actually, though God knows we don't TALK about it.

When anything even tilts one degree toward the slippery slope, my empathy starts yelling at me, making me feel in advance the hurt I know my wife would feel. Instant boundary stiffener.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Caribbean Man said:


> Well I just thought I'd use a term that you , being a bible quoting Christian would understand ,
> 
> Quite a derogatory remark...
> 
> 
> and maybe you would have taken a closer look at your arguments.
> 
> Would not harm you either CM.
> 
> 
> So here goes.
> Definition of EISEGESIS
> 
> : the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas — compare exegesis.
> 
> In other words ,using confirmatory bias in a debate.
> 
> Confirmatory bias is simply allowing your feelings, beliefs and perception to cloud your view in spite of the obvious realities.
> 
> So here's an example.
> 
> ....


So here is my example: 

Nothing less than total history of mankind with a couple of exceptions...

Because

Everybody is forming his perceived 'objective' reality based on feelings, beliefs and existing perceptions.


Everybody is uttering in speech or writing about objective reality with:

a mix of his perceived 'objective' reality
AND 
strategies for reaching his or her (probably compulsory) goals and targets.


Some of us try to look for better ways of thinking, I know you do, but most even don't try.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

*Re: Really?!*



Jellybeans said:


> TAM Land isn't for everyone, I guess. Your thread is not the first that has been derailed. Many threads do end up going the way of other related issues. Your thread is also not the first Opposite Sex Friends on TAM (it's been done about 200 times on TAM). It is a topic that always brings out great conversation and various viewpoints. I realize you are new at TAM, your profile indicates that you joined only this month, so perhaps you aren't well-versed in how the climate is here, but this is hardly anything new.
> 
> Besides the the troll that entered your thread, it's been pretty kosher here. Not everyone is going to agree in threads, in fact that is what makes TAM kind of fun. Differing opinions.
> 
> It's like that Katy Perry song "We fight, we break up. We kiss, we make up."


When did I express any displeasure with people disagreeing? :scratchhead: I have an issue with needless arguing and insults. This should be completely understandable. 

Just because something has happened before, it doesn't make it right.  I don't care if this is not the first thread about opposite sex friends. That is not the point. I was very clear about what disturbed me about the direction this thread has taken. I am sorry if you felt that my concerns were unimportant.


----------



## Jellybeans

I never said I felt your concerns were unimportant. I was responding to what you wrote. This is hardly anything new that happens here. I know you're new but this is kinda how it flows here. Open forum and all that jazz.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

*Re: Really?!*



owl6118 said:


> OK, I'll play, but I want to state this as clearly as I possibly can:
> 
> I do not think I am typical in this one area, and I do not hold myself out as an example to anyone about this.
> 
> Alles klar, Herr Kommisar?
> 
> I am a straight married man. However, all my life from adolescence onward, the overwhleming majority of my friends have been women. I just connect better with them. I find them more interesting conversationalists. I enjoy their company. My friendship life is, to a first order of approximation, one big mess 'o opposite sex friendships.
> 
> BUT, and this is a huge BUT, I also have a very strong sense of boundaries. Until I started reading in TAM, I didn't really know what they were or how they worked, they were unconscious. But I now realize there is actually a huge list. Since I entered my relationship with my wife:
> 
> 1. No lunches alone with female workmates. Groups of three or more. And anyway, I usually lunch alone at my desk.
> 
> 2. Don't do happy hour or after-work socializing.
> 
> 3. No long phone calls. In fact, any phone call is rare and is usually limited to setting up a social calendar engagement.
> 
> 4. No discussing issues in my marriage with female friends, no matter how long I've known them or how dear they are to me. The first rule of marriage club is, you do not talk smack about your marriage, at least not to other women.
> 
> 5. Much higher level of scrutiny and care with making dead sure friendships with the handful of still-single women are firmly platonic.
> 
> 6. No secret friends. My wife knows all these woman, in most cases has for going on 30 years, as we were all friends together back to college. She is as close or closer to many of them than I am. Any female friendships I have added since our marriage, she is included in, though sometimes she chooses not to pursue anything more than an acquaintanceship for lack of common interests.
> 
> 
> And there are a lot more rules I suppose that I haven't thought of. But really, the list of rules is not the point. What is the point is that I love the friendship of women, BUT, I am also about the most loyal spouse on the planet. All my life, my desire was to bond with one special someone. I didn't enjoy dating, I never enjoyed playing the field. The idea of betraying the woman I have promised my life loyalty to horrifies me. My entire sense of empathy recoils from the very thought. And I let those feelings rule my behavior and judgement.
> 
> My wife is OK with all this. It helps that she is, quite possibly, the most grounded and least jealous woman on the planet.
> 
> But you know what? It is not a two-way street. I am not equally comfortable with her having intense male friendships--because I am a guy and I damn well know how most guys are hard-wired, even if they botched that step on me personally on the assembly line. Luckily, she doesn't really have any, and doesn't feel any lack.
> 
> Hypocritical much? Sure! But this our life and our marriage in the real world, not law or philosophy class. Not everything has to be mirror image logically consistent, as long as it works, and we are both in a place of comfort and security and trust.
> 
> Again--I do not recommend this or advocate it. I guess I am just noting that humans fall on a bell curve, and on this one issue, I am the outlier.


I think you approach your opposite sex friendships in a manner which is very respectful to your marriage. :smthumbup:

We all have boundaries and agreements in our marriages that others may not understand or agree to. I get a lot of flack from women for taking my husband's name, as well as considering his feelings when planning my social life. I realize that some of them are just bitter about being single. 

I hate it when my husband asks me not to do something and then turns around and does what he has asked me not to do. Fortunately, my husband sees why that kind of behavior is unacceptable.

If my husband had new female friends who were not lesbians, I would be angry because he has asked me not to have new straight male friends. We try to be as equitable as possible.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

Jellybeans said:


> I never said I felt your concerns were unimportant. I was responding to what you wrote. This is hardly anything new that happens here. I know you're new but this is kinda how it flows here. Open forum and all that jazz.


I understand that you did not say that my concerns were not important. However, it appears that the message expressed in your posts is "Hey, you're not the first. Who cares?" It's hard to tell because we cannot see or hear each other. Ah, the joys of online communication.

I'm not sure if this is how it flows on TAM because I have read threads about banned members and noted how the moderators responded. This shows that there is some kind of monitoring and structure here. I know that trolls are to be expected on an open forum, as well as people who insist on breaking explicitly stated rules. 

I enjoy disagreeing because it leads to debate, which is always interesting. I just don't see why it needs to become a fight which goes on for pages and pages. Also, while I agree that it can be hard to stay on topic, it is in bad form to purposely derail someone else's thread out of a need to win an argument.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

owl6118 said:


> Sorry to thread barrage, but one last thought occurred to me (sorry again, but this is, to me, a VERY interesting subject):
> 
> I suspect the reason I am comfortable with my female friends, and my wife is also comfortable with my having female friends, is that neither of us are relying on my virtue to keep things on the up and up.
> 
> Virtue, somehow, would imply that it was adherence to a code of conduct out of abstract love of right living that keeps things on the level.
> 
> It isn't.
> 
> It's that I am really just pretty uxorious, and really just not interested in affairs, EA or PA or otherwise. I'm just---not. And my wife knows me well enough to know that its true.
> 
> *I think what she really trusts is my 100% reliable ability to not be interested in what I am not, in fact, interested in: a list which includes NASCAR, knitting, most television, and EAs and PAs.*


:lol::lol: Hilarious. 

No need to apologize.


----------



## Jellybeans

CharlotteMcdougall said:


> I'm not sure if this is how it flows on TAM because I have read threads about banned members and noted how the moderators responded. This shows that there is some kind of monitoring and structure here.


Bannings happen because of BAD news. Like the troll that got blitzed (again) in this thread. 



CharlotteMcdougall said:


> Also, while I agree that it can be hard to stay on topic, it is in bad form to purposely derail someone else's thread out of a need to win an argument.


TAM may be a struggle for you then. Because it happens and often. Just saying. 

Anyway I have nothing further to say except for:

BOUNDARIES! That's how I feel about this topic. And you all are doing a great job of debating. Hee.


----------



## owl6118

*Re: Really?!*



CharlotteMcdougall said:


> .
> 
> If my husband had new female friends who were not lesbians, I would be angry because he has asked me not to have new straight male friends. We try to be as equitable as possible.


It will be interesting if and when this comes up in our marriage. Strangely, it hasn't yet. 

But maybe it's not so strange when I think about it. After college, I can't really think of a single new good male friend qua friend my future wife made. She dated men, but didn't accumulate new male friends (other than accepting her formerly single female friends' husbands into her life as they arrived on the scene). I by contrast never really stopped adding female friends to my extended circle. A lot became her friends too through my introduction.

Since we got together, each of us has really just kept on acting in character.

But if she does make a new, close male friend in the future--well, we'll have something to work out. I might need her to really carefully assure me that she's thought through her boundaries.


----------



## alexm

lovelygirl said:


> I still don't get why divorcing someone over their sexuality is wrong.
> If I found out my husband was gay, I would divorce him. What's wrong with that?
> 
> I think I would do the same if I found out he was bi. I wouldn't look at him the same way.
> 
> I agree with CM, it would change the dynamic in our relationship/marriage.


I'm simply trying to find out WHY it would change the dynamic, that's all.

I've posited that if my wife "realized" she liked women as well, I wouldn't stop loving, or trusting her. If she still felt the same way about me, which I would have no reason to think she wouldn't, then what's the difference?

She's either going to cheat on me, or she isn't. I fail to see why it makes a difference if she likes men and women, or just men.

That is all. Nobody has been able to articulate a response to this. I'm sure there is one, but everybody on CM's "side", including the man (the legend) himself, just repeat the same stuff and basically tell the rest of us to shut up and move along.

ps. who said it was "wrong"? God forbid somebody ask people - who have not clarified their response with anything more than "because it's what I believe" - a question...


----------



## DoF

alexm said:


> I'm simply trying to find out WHY it would change the dynamic, that's all.
> 
> I've posited that if my wife "realized" she liked women as well, I wouldn't stop loving, or trusting her. If she still felt the same way about me, which I would have no reason to think she wouldn't, then what's the difference?


I don't see anything wrong with above as long as both parties agree.

If you both accept it and are willing to share, what's the problem?


----------



## owl6118

alexm said:


> I'm simply trying to find out WHY it would change the dynamic, that's all.
> 
> I've posited that if my wife "realized" she liked women as well, I wouldn't stop loving, or trusting her. If she still felt the same way about me, which I would have no reason to think she wouldn't, then what's the difference?


Well, for me, it would mean there was something simply hugely important to her identity that I was, and have always been, completely ignorant of. And that would be traumatic. I am sure it would unleash a flood of insecurity. Because clearly, the actual person is different from the person I thought I knew better than anyone. The fact of the bisexuality might or might not make a difference. The fact that I simply DID NOT KNOW my wife the way I thought I did sure as heck would.


----------



## alexm

Caribbean Man said:


> Lol,
> 
> You forgot to mention the part where you said I was being an *******, and where you went out on a limb and suggested that I was Homophobic, Christian and Conservative.
> 
> Of course I don't think that you said those things to make me look bad, homophobic conservative Christians are good people that are well respected in the USA.
> 
> I * get* what you're saying, I really do!
> 
> You just wanted " _understand my position better_."
> 
> Lol,
> Sorry about the misunderstanding!


Sigh.

Here I go, sinking to your level, sucked in yet again... 

In case you didn't see it, I was making assumptions, much like how you do, Caribbean Man. You make assumptions on people here all the time. You have a few favorite targets. It's all well and good when the man himself does it, but nobody else is allowed to do it, lest we be called out, in your typical sarcastic manner, for utilizing the same "tactics" you do.

You have your followers here (and for good reason), and you know that when somebody (me. Theseus.) disagree with you, some folks will have your back.

Here's a neat point. I don't believe I've ever said something is right or wrong here, unless it's clearly obvious. Even this subject I've stated that I see both ways, yet I still give my 2 cents, as OP requested. You, do not generally see things like that. You are black and white. It is, or it isn't. It's right or it's wrong.

That's all well and good. You're not alone in that manner of thinking here.

Where you differ is that you revel in the chaos you more often than not cause. I am to blame, as is Theseus, because we keep falling for your garbage. So I guess that proves I AM dumb.

But that's the thing I don't get with you - what do you get out of this place? I haven't found a single thread, including your first ones, in which you came here for a specific reason. Most, if not all of us Tam'ers came here because we had specific issues we needed help with. Some of us stick around because we're still dealing with it, or simply because we've found a "home".

You, I don't get. It's like a weird hobby you have or something. Don't get me wrong, you contribute here, that can't be debated. But you also cause chaos and spark little flame wars amongst the people you don't like. Your contribution to this thread is exactly zilch, and there are many other threads that you poke your head into, drop a deuce, and sit back and watch. Just because some folks here think you're the bees knees doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make your treatment of those who cross your path okay. But you continue to get likes on your posts or people who mirror your sentiments, and that feeds your ego or something.

This is an internet message board. Period. Above and beyond that, this is a place for people who are hurting, or need help, to come - I was/am among them. You don't make people like me feel welcome. And there are others - others apart from your "usual suspects".

It confuses me to no end why, when this place exists solely to help others with their marriage related issues, that you would resort to generally being a **** to some of them. Maybe some of them deserve it, I don't know. But what did I do? You don't like the fact that I disagree with you? You don't like HOW I disagree with you? You don't like that I call you out on occasion? All I have ever said to you, in any thread, including this one, is asking you to expand upon whatever reply you may have made that I find differing from my own opinion. I don't believe I have ever said "CM, you are wrong, and you're an idiot". I have debated, sure, but it always always ends up with you talking to me like you have in this thread.

If you require this in your life to make you happy, then okay. All good. We all need... something. But I'm a good guy, and you make me feel like I'm a complete idiot for even being here, let alone putting my 2 cents in on various threads.

So, you're the king of the hill. I'm just a peon. This is your board, you win. See you around.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

alexm said:


> I'm simply trying to find out WHY it would change the dynamic, that's all.
> 
> I've posited that if my wife "realized" she liked women as well, I wouldn't stop loving, or trusting her. If she still felt the same way about me, which I would have no reason to think she wouldn't, then what's the difference?


If my DH said he was bisexual my trust in him would involuntarily lapse just enough for me to always wonder if he was wishing he could have me but also have a man on the side to fulfill that attraction.Right now,I know what I'm dealing with and that I can meet his needs 100%.If he announces he's into dudes too...well I can't keep up with that or meet that need.

ETA and to tie it in with the OP,it would become way too weird for me to know he's into men and hangs out with men. I'd still trust him around females bc like I said,I know I've got him on lock when it comes to having his needs met on the female side of the fence. But I'd always wonder w/the men. I couldn't handle it.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

over20 said:


> Thank you....I just felt like I should have had better walls built up before that kind of temptation was offered......I WAS the type of person that judged other's for this very kind of thing. I hate myself now for judging men and women who struggle with temptation.


over20:

well I have another question for you, which looks like will be posted on page 13. I can also see fights involving you starting on page 8-9..so i hope you're still around to answer it. 

your husband must have had two concerns when you first talked with him:

1. WTF with the married guy/his friend asking you to have sex with him. e.g. how to deal with him etc

2. concerned that you had feelings for this guy

if it was me then I'd find #2 a lot more tough than #1 'Rejuvenating' a marriage is a lot easier said than done. what did you guys do? how did you approach it?


----------



## alexm

ScarletBegonias said:


> If my DH said he was bisexual my trust in him would involuntarily lapse just enough for me to always wonder if he was wishing he could have me but also have a man on the side to fulfill that attraction.Right now,I know what I'm dealing with and that I can meet his needs 100%.If he announces he's into dudes too...well I can't keep up with that or meet that need.
> 
> ETA and to tie it in with the OP,it would become way too weird for me to know he's into men and hangs out with men. I'd still trust him around females bc like I said,I know I've got him on lock when it comes to having his needs met on the female side of the fence. But I'd always wonder w/the men. I couldn't handle it.


Thank you for that response, I appreciate it 

I get it now. Actually I kind of got it before, to be honest. I'm sure I'd have a hard time with that kind of news coming from my wife, but my first reaction wouldn't be "divorce". That was more the question I was looking for a reply to.

OP, genuinely sorry for my part in the hijack as well. The arguments are silly, and I apologize for taking part in something I can't stand myself when I'm reading through other threads.

Please don't take it to mean that anybody here is belittling your original topic. Sometimes these things go off in different directions. It's common on any internet message board, not just this one


----------



## nuclearnightmare

lovelygirl said:


> I'm amazed by the amount of very low boundaries and very high level of disrespect some people allow in their marriage/relationship.


Ithink its important to think about the main reason for boundaries in an M. yes there's some preventative effect against cheating I think, but the main issue is respect IMO. a spouse that spends a lot of one-on-one time or in incessant communication electronically with a OSF is giving a lot of emotional energy to that person...certain amount of bonding can occurr, and that is energy, time and bonding the other spouse thinks should belong top them and them alone. so for me even if cheating didn't seem like much of a probability I would still feel serioussly slighted...'dissed' if my wife had a OSF. she would feel the same regarding me. 

have never thought about the bisexual issue. The problem there is that same sex friends are very important throughout a person's life - to their emotional health etc. those should not be turned off and/or new ones should be started.
So - sorry - I got no policy to offer on the bisexual thing! :scratchhead:


----------



## AliceA

Theseus said:


> :lol:
> 
> Curious why it doesn't work for you, since ironically you are now explaining MY argument very well! (although we could do without your sarcastic mention of phallic objects). Now maybe you start to see how ludicrous these bannings are. Personally, I think trust is the better option.


I'll just ignore the percentages since they are made up on the spot. 

My point was that if you were going to argue that point then if you followed through, it becomes ridiculous. If your point cannot be followed through to it's conclusion without seeming idiotic, then it shouldn't be used. Better off finding better ways to argue your point. 

And as for the hijacking stuff by the OP, the whole thing was brought up as an argument for having opposite sex friends. I don't agree that the argument should be used, but regardless, if you don't like how people think, don't ask them what they think. lol


----------



## Theseus

owl6118 said:


> I am sure it would unleash a flood of insecurity. Because clearly, the actual person is different from the person I thought I knew better than anyone. The fact of the bisexuality might or might not make a difference. The fact that I simply DID NOT KNOW my wife the way I thought I did sure as heck would.





ScarletBegonias said:


> ETA and to tie it in with the OP,it would become way too weird for me to know he's into men and hangs out with men. I'd still trust him around females bc like I said,I know I've got him on lock when it comes to having his needs met on the female side of the fence. But I'd always wonder w/the men. I couldn't handle it.


Wow, I guess this will deserve a thread of it's own. So both of you would leave a bisexual spouse because it would make you insecure.

People change over time, it's especially common with women. It happened to one long-term girlfriend of mine. You should be flexible enough to deal with the changes and work them out, not resort to divorce. But that's just my 2 cents.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Theseus said:


> Wow, I guess this will deserve a thread of it's own. So both of you would leave a bisexual spouse because it would make you insecure.
> 
> People change over time, it's especially common with women. It happened to one long-term girlfriend of mine. You should be flexible enough to deal with the changes and work them out, not resort to divorce. But that's just my 2 cents.


I totally appreciate your view on this. I'm a very flexible person but I do have limits. This happens to be one of those limits. I don't think it's up to anyone else to tell me how flexible I should be when it comes to my life and my marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## owl6118

Theseus said:


> Wow, I guess this will deserve a thread of it's own. So both of you would leave a bisexual spouse because it would make you insecure.


I didn't say anything about leaving.


----------



## AliceA

Theseus said:


> Wow, I guess this will deserve a thread of it's own. So both of you would leave a bisexual spouse because it would make you insecure.
> 
> People change over time, it's especially common with women. It happened to one long-term girlfriend of mine. You should be flexible enough to deal with the changes and work them out, not resort to divorce. But that's just my 2 cents.


Makes you wonder how many people have stated they would leave their spouse if their spouse cheated on them but ended up staying when it happened. Probably many.

It's not all that common among anyone I've ever known to *change* sexual orientation (try once, and she was still very young). If you're dating in college etc, yeah, probably normal these days for that age group of people to be experimenting, but you're trying to apply the argument to people who've been married for many years. Trying to apply the argument to me or my DH would be utterly pointless. As pointless as trying to apply it to my grandmother. At a certain point, it really just becomes a pointless argument.

Edit: Note I said *change*, not *admit*.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Theseus said:


> Wow, I guess this will deserve a thread of it's own. So both of you would leave a bisexual spouse because it would make you insecure.
> 
> I wish people would stop thinking that if the throw the "I" word around, people will feel intimidated. To move on to get what you want is not being insecure. It's being secure, secure that you will get what you want.
> 
> 
> People change over time, it's especially common with women. It happened to one long-term girlfriend of mine. I don't know about this.
> 
> You should be flexible enough to deal with the changes and work them out, not resort to divorce. Don't tell other people how to live.
> 
> But that's just my 2 cents. well, you said it first.


^^^


----------



## Caribbean Man

NextTimeAround said:


> _I wish people would stop thinking that if the throw the "I" word around, people will feel intimidated. To move on to get what you want is not being insecure. It's being secure, secure that you will get what you want._


:iagree:

Accusing a partner of being insecure when they have very legitimate concerns is a manipulative , bullying tactic used mostly by narcissists , and people who see themselves as superior in relationships.


----------



## Theseus

NextTimeAround said:


> Don't tell other people how to live.




So you are saying we shouldn't give advice in an advice forum. WTF?

I didn't demand anyone do anything, I just gave my own advice. You see, that's how an open discussion forum like this works. People discuss their problems here, other people give discussions and feedback. You've done it and I've done it. And so has everyone else here. 

So don't feign outrage over a made up issue. Not only is that ridiculous, but it's a waste of our time.


----------



## Theseus

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Accusing a partner of being insecure when they have very legitimate concerns is a manipulative , bullying tactic used mostly by narcissists , and people who see themselves as superior in relationships.


Except that I didn't do that. Read the quotes again. The two people I responded to *ADMITTED* that they were insecure over this issue. I was only responding to them.

CM, constantly assuming bad faith of other members here and making inflammatory statements like that isn't helpful in this forum.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Theseus said:


> Except that I didn't do that. Read the quotes again. The two people I responded to *ADMITTED* that they were insecure over this issue. I was only responding to them.
> 
> CM, constantly assuming bad faith of other members here and making inflammatory statements like that isn't helpful in this forum.


And where in my post did I say that you, Theseus said that?

What part of my post referred to ANY part of your post or even made reference to your name?

If you read my post , I said accusing a PARTNER .
Clearly I was referring to relationships as was the poster I quoted from.

Looks like somebody else is assuming bad faith eh?

But I don't think he's man enough to apologize.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Caribbean Man said:


> But I don't think he's man enough to apologize.


----------



## ConanHub

Theseus... This thread asked couples what boundaries worked in their relationships with opposite sex friends. I have been in a successful relationship for 22 years and shared my marriage boundaries, so did many others in long term successful relationships. You came on and started picking and criticizing.

How about sharing your success story with your bi-sexual wife of decades who has private time with all her ex lovers with no boundaries?

You brought these points up so I'm going to assume you have a long term successful relationship under these circumstances? How about you share your success and happiness instead of critique aimed at others?

Love to hear your story......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man

ConanHub said:


> Theseus... This thread asked couples what boundaries worked in their relationships with opposite sex friends. I have been in a successful relationship for 22 years and shared my marriage boundaries, so did many others in long term successful relationships. You came on and started picking and criticizing.
> 
> How about sharing your success story with your bi-sexual wife of decades who has private time with all her ex lovers with no boundaries?
> 
> You brought these points up so I'm going to assume you have a long term successful relationship under these circumstances? How about you share your success and happiness instead of critique aimed at others?
> 
> Love to hear your story......
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've already asked him about his boundaries on this thread ,but he refused to even share it or say if it has any effect on his objections.

Everyone already know my boundaries, I did an entire thread on this same subject about one year ago here:

Another Look At Opposite Sex Friends In Marriage.

Interestingly enough, he was _also _on that thread , doing the same thing he's doing on this one...


----------



## owl6118

Theseus said:


> Except that I didn't do that. Read the quotes again. The two people I responded to *ADMITTED* that they were insecure over this issue. I was only responding to them.


Courteously, no.

First, I did not "admit" to being insecure about her hypothetical bisexuality. I "admitted" that I would likely feel insecure because I would feel as if I did not know my partner at all as well as I thought I did. 

Second, I positively did not mention one word about leaving her--that was your conclusion about what I would do to resolve my hypothetical insecurity, that you incorrectly attributed to me.

I have a sharp dislike of having other people's thoughts attributed to me, especially the thought that I would ever leave my wife, so I hope you'll understand when I decline to engage with your hypothetical any further.


----------



## Theseus

Caribbean Man said:


> And where in my post did I say that you, Theseus said that?
> 
> What part of my post referred to ANY part of your post or even made reference to your name?
> 
> If you read my post , I said accusing a PARTNER .
> Clearly I was referring to relationships as was the poster I quoted from.
> 
> Looks like somebody else is assuming bad faith eh?
> 
> But I don't think he's man enough to apologize.


CM, are you serious? OK.... Calm down and actually look at these two posts again. 

1. NextTimeAround responded to *MY* post, and criticized me.

2. Then you responded to him, quoted him, and even held up a emoticon sign saying you agree! 

So if you were not addressing me, you sure have a strange way of showing it! It's just by coincidence that you quoted him at that moment? hmmmm. Maybe you did intend that, but that would mean you just wrote random stuff about insecurity without looking at what the conversation was about.

So are you "man enough to apologize"?


----------



## Theseus

ConanHub said:


> Theseus... This thread asked couples what boundaries worked in their relationships with opposite sex friends. I have been in a successful relationship for 22 years and shared my marriage boundaries


Congratulations. 



> _You came on and started picking and criticizing._


If by "pick and criticize", you mean me calling out people for their baiting and rude behavior, yes I've done plenty of that. 



> _How about sharing your success story with your bi-sexual wife of decades who has private time with all her ex lovers with no boundaries?_


That would be hard to do, since my wife has never told me she is bisexual, she has no other lovers, and we have plenty of boundaries. 



> _You brought these points up so I'm going to assume you have a long term successful relationship under these circumstances? How about you share your success and happiness instead of critique aimed at others?_


I actually have shared our story privately with certain members of this forum. I may do sometime in a separate thread, but this one has been hijacked enough already. Besides, your request is just dripping with sarcasm.


----------



## Theseus

owl6118 said:


> Courteously, no.
> 
> First, I did not "admit" to being insecure about her hypothetical bisexuality. I "admitted" that I would likely feel insecure because I would feel as if I did not know my partner at all as well as I thought I did.



So "being insecure" is different from "feeling insecure"? Are you serious? It looks like you are backpedaling by splitting hairs in the extreme. 

Your exact words were: "I am sure it would unleash a flood of insecurity". 

How else is someone supposed to translate that, other than by assuming you believe you would be insecure about it?



> _Second, I positively did not mention one word about leaving her--that was your conclusion about what I would do to resolve my hypothetical insecurity, that you incorrectly attributed to me._


Fair enough. You are correct. I quoted both you and Scarlett together for brevity, and she said she would leave her spouse, but you did not. I should have been more careful about that.


----------



## owl6118

Theseus said:


> So "being insecure" is different from "feeling insecure"? Are you serious? It looks like you are backpedaling by splitting hairs in the extreme.
> 
> Your exact words were: "I am sure it would unleash a flood of insecurity". .


The point I was trying to make had nothing to do with splitting hairs between being and feeling. The point is this:

You state that I said I was insecure about the hypothetical bisexuality.

I actually said, clearly I thought, that I would feel insecure becuase I would have learned I did not know my wife as well as I thought I did.

These are not the same thing.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Theseus said:


> CM, are you serious? OK.... Calm down and actually look at these two posts again.
> 
> 1. NextTimeAround responded to *MY* post, and criticized me.
> 
> 2. Then you responded to him, quoted him, and even held up a emoticon sign saying you agree!
> 
> So if you were not addressing me, you sure have a strange way of showing it! It's just by coincidence that you quoted him at that moment? hmmmm. Maybe you did intend that, but that would mean you just wrote random stuff about insecurity without looking at what the conversation was about.
> 
> So are you "man enough to apologize"?


Theseus,

Your profound logic and superior intellect yet again,astounds me!

I honestly though I was making a general statement about people in relationships. So I must have gotten it wrong.

Never knew it was possible to address a third party source directly by addressing a statement made by an independent second party.

Stupid me!

Lol, not only would I apologize on my behalf, but on the behalf of everyone on this thread who obviously misunderstood what you were trying to tell us.

Proceed!

BTW, the poster NextTimeAround is a female , at least she implied that in this thread. However you said that she's a man, so again you must be right. For this too,I apologize.


----------



## Headspin

opposite sex friends ?

God this was the bane of my life, my marriage 

The one real aspect that I was wrong / got wrong in as big a way as possible 

The strongest part of my stbx personality is the charisma, the effervescence, the bubbly personality that is attractive to all she meets men and woman. Always has bucketful of friends but of course that includes men always around, always looking, always sniffing for that one positive vibe of encouragement.

Being popular, charismatic, flirty was very natural and easy for her, to have exes to have many opposite sex friends and of course much of it was innocent but...

I felt guilty about laying down a boundary that would in any way stop her from enjoying such a fulfilling part of her life.

More fool me because she relied upon that good naturedness from me to allow her a life where there were no boundaries. All I wanted was for her to fulfill herself as a person in as positive as way as possible

With serial infidelity she proceeded to rip me our children and other marriages to shreds 

Without a second thought 

(As some have mentioned TAM has opened up my eyes completely to my folly) If only I had found this place much sooner 

Cant believe I was such an idiot to not get this, to not see this - a fundamental aspect of marriage that needs to be ironed out right from the start



...........Never again


----------



## Wolf1974

Headspin said:


> opposite sex friends ?
> 
> God this was the bane of my life, my marriage
> 
> The one real aspect that I was wrong / got wrong in as big a way as possible
> 
> The strongest part of my stbx personality is the charisma, the effervescence, the bubbly personality that is attractive to all she meets men and woman. Always has bucketful of friends but of course that includes men always around, always looking, always sniffing for that one positive vibe of encouragement.
> 
> Being popular, charismatic, flirty was very natural and easy for her, to have exes to have many opposite sex friends and of course much of it was innocent but...
> 
> I felt guilty about laying down a boundary that would in any way stop her from enjoying such a fulfilling part of her life.
> 
> More fool me because she relied upon that good naturedness from me to allow her a life where there were no boundaries. All I wanted was for her to fulfill herself as a person in as positive as way as possible
> 
> With serial infidelity she proceeded to rip me our children and other marriages to shreds
> 
> Without a second thought
> 
> (As some have mentioned TAM has opened up my eyes completely to my folly) If only I had found this place much sooner
> 
> Cant believe I was such an idiot to not get this, to not see this - a fundamental aspect of marriage that needs to be ironed out right from the start
> 
> 
> 
> ...........Never again


Ok but have to ask. So are you saying that had you the power in your marriage to say no opposite sex friends then you wife would have never cheated?


----------



## Caribbean Man

There is a flawed thinking on this thread and I see it many times when these types of conversations come up.

Human beings aren't rational. We are rationalizing animals.

A lot of our decisions aren't rational or based on sound logic because we have this thing call emotions. Our decisions are almost always influenced by our emotions. Sometimes we are emotionally tired, upset , afraid, insecure, jealous , happy, sad, and the list goes on.
Anyone who says their emotions don't affect their cognitive function is fooling themselves.
Love is a feeling, not a rational thought.

People don't cheat simply because they're scum. People cheat because they _rationalize_ that they're entitled to , and _feel_ to themselves that they would never get caught.

Marriage is just like any other system we operate within, it is a construct. No system can function at optimum without boundaries.

The legal system is a construct with very strict boundaries. If there were no boundaries , then our legal system would cease to exist.

But aren't people rational and morally superior enough to do the right thing without having thousands of laws [ boundaries] and the threat of incarceration hanging over their heads?

I dunno, the evidence seems to suggest otherwise. Our courthouses are always filled , and there's always a backlog of cases.

The same can be applied to boundaries in marriage.

Just like sometimes morally upright and just people might break the law and get into trouble , sometimes in marriage , otherwise morally upright and just people , fall get into situations and they inevitably , cheat.
The evidence suggest that we aren't as rational as some think we are.
We love to rationalize, hence the need for boundaries.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Wolf1974 said:


> Ok but have to ask. So are you saying that had you the power in your marriage to say no opposite sex friends then you wife would have never cheated?


Maybe it would not stop his wife from cheating, but boundaries provide an early warning system so that you are not left blindesided (if you don't want to be).


----------



## tacoma

Caribbean Man said:


> Human beings aren't rational. We are rationalizing animals.
> 
> A lot of our decisions aren't rational or based on sound logic because we have this thing call emotions. Our decisions are almost always influenced by our emotions. Sometimes we are emotionally tired, upset , afraid, insecure, jealous , happy, sad, and the list goes on.
> Anyone who says their emotions don't affect their cognitive function is fooling themselves.
> Love is a feeling, not a rational thought.


This is why I don't have female friends.
I know the saying goes "Men can't be friends with women because they want to sleep with them" but I see it work both ways.

I have rarely had any woman attempt to befriend me who didn't have other ideas tucked away somewhere in her head.

I make a habit of staying out of situations that can cause this trouble and opposite sex friends are one of those situations.

Is this because I'm weak?
I don't think so, I've turned down opportunities that I would have killed for were I single so I think my emotional/mental state is pretty strong BUT.....I'm taking no chances with the health of my marriage and family.

I'm just not going there.


----------



## Theseus

Caribbean Man said:


> Theseus,
> 
> Your profound logic and superior intellect yet again,astounds me!


Is that really necessary?




> _I honestly though I was making a general statement about people in relationships. So I must have gotten it wrong.
> 
> Never knew it was possible to address a third party source directly by addressing a statement made by an independent second party._


That is all nonsense. NextTimeAround addressed me, and you said you agreed. So it's pretty natural that someone would assume your very next sentence was addressed to me. That's all. 



> _BTW, the poster NextTimeAround is a female , at least she implied that in this thread. However you said that she's a man, so again you must be right. For this too,I apologize._


Red herring. Her gender was not part of my discussion and not germane to the topic at hand.


----------



## ConanHub

Theseus said:


> Congratulations.
> 
> 
> 
> If by "pick and criticize", you mean me calling out people for their baiting and rude behavior, yes I've done plenty of that.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be hard to do, since my wife has never told me she is bisexual, she has no other lovers, and we have plenty of boundaries.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually have shared our story privately with certain members of this forum. I may do sometime in a separate thread, but this one has been hijacked enough already. Besides, your request is just dripping with sarcasm.


It Is absolutely sarcastic Because you gave no examples of your own And started critiquing Others who had.

Then you bring up Hypothetical situations That you yourself are not experiencing And neither is anyone who is posting. You are starting an argument were none exist. On top of that you yourself are not sharing your boundaries. Until you decide to show and tell Maybe you should pack up your argument hat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Theseus

ConanHub said:


> It Is absolutely sarcastic Because you gave no examples of your own And started critiquing Others who had.
> 
> Then you bring up Hypothetical situations That you yourself are not experiencing And neither is anyone who is posting. You are starting an argument were none exist. On top of that you yourself are not sharing your boundaries. Until you decide to show and tell Maybe you should pack up your argument hat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



So in other words, you tried to bait me into bringing my personal life into this discussion, I refused, so now your panties are in a bunch. Very mature.

News flash: It's not up to you to decide who can post here and who cannot. 

BTW, your description of my posts here is greatly flawed. I recommend you go back in this thread and actually read them.


----------



## alexm

Headspin said:


> opposite sex friends ?
> 
> God this was the bane of my life, my marriage
> 
> The one real aspect that I was wrong / got wrong in as big a way as possible
> 
> The strongest part of my stbx personality is the charisma, the effervescence, the bubbly personality that is attractive to all she meets men and woman. Always has bucketful of friends but of course that includes men always around, always looking, always sniffing for that one positive vibe of encouragement.
> 
> Being popular, charismatic, flirty was very natural and easy for her, to have exes to have many opposite sex friends and of course much of it was innocent but...
> 
> I felt guilty about laying down a boundary that would in any way stop her from enjoying such a fulfilling part of her life.
> 
> More fool me because she relied upon that good naturedness from me to allow her a life where there were no boundaries. All I wanted was for her to fulfill herself as a person in as positive as way as possible
> 
> With serial infidelity she proceeded to rip me our children and other marriages to shreds
> 
> Without a second thought
> 
> (As some have mentioned TAM has opened up my eyes completely to my folly) If only I had found this place much sooner
> 
> Cant believe I was such an idiot to not get this, to not see this - a fundamental aspect of marriage that needs to be ironed out right from the start
> 
> 
> 
> ...........Never again


I respectfully disagree - not that it's not right for YOU, but just in very general terms. To use a term I already used in this thread, it's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

In MY opinion, this decision about OSF is completely dependant upon you and your partner and the relationship you have with one another.

I was pretty much exactly like you with my ex wife, and I got burned too. But the way I see it is that that was on her, not on me allowing her to have OSFs.

Certainly it's not in our best interests to tempt fate like that, however I am of the firm belief that these people will do what they like no matter what rules one lays down. I could have been alpha male and put my foot down about what I do and don't expect in my relationship - she still would have found a way around it. By not creating those specific boundaries, I simply made it easier for her. As I said earlier, the man she ultimately left me for, and married, she met on the internet, rather innocuously as well. She wasn't trolling or anything. That's not really something I could have demanded she not do - talk to people online who share a common interest. Much like some of you here make friends with people of the opposite sex, it's innocent, but things can turn on a dime even if that wasn't one's intention from the start.

It happens, it will happen, and there's not a whole lot anybody can do to protect oneself from it. A cheater will cheat no matter what. That's not to say we should allow our spouses to go out on a Friday night with an OSF or anything, but the bottom line is, if he/she is going to cheat, they're going to cheat. At work, at the coffee shop, online, at the gym, whatever. It'll happen if they want it to.

Had I started off my relationship with my current wife like that, she would have told me where to stick it. She knows what my boundaries are (there was an incident with a co-worker a few years back, which both I and her dealt with), however there was never any need for a proper discussion on what I expect from her in terms of friendships, etc.

In essence, I am coming from the same ordeal as you are, however I did not decide that any future woman I dated would be told what she can and can't do. Basically, if it was like that from the beginning, that woman wouldn't have been for me. I wouldn't have asked her to stop it, I would have let her go, and if she needed a reason, I would have told her straight up that our boundaries were not the same. I would much rather not have to tell somebody this kind of thing and expect them to change, because the truth is, they likely wouldn't, and they'd eventually resent you for even asking it.

It's not a whole lot different than mismatched sexual desire, imo. If it's obvious you're not a match from the beginning, then see ya later, it ain't gonna change long term. If it pops it's head up later on, then there's an issue in the relationship. My ex wife didn't have male friends until she lost 50lbs, discovered the gym, and realized she liked getting hit on. Before that, she used to tell guys where to go just for looking at her, and she thought men were dirtbags for ogling other women.

Use your experience with the ex in order to choose your future partner(s) more carefully, rather than use it to draw lines in the sand, know what I mean? It really is very much dependant on one's partner, rather than black and white.


----------



## Wolf1974

NextTimeAround said:


> Maybe it would not stop his wife from cheating, but boundaries provide an early warning system so that you are not left blindesided (if you don't want to be).


so where do the boundaries stop? No opposite sex co-workers, mailman, people at the gym, grocery store. Certainly never any guys night out of girls night out unless they just stay in all night.
The boundaries are defined by the couple and I have no issue with whatever a couple comes up with. If anyone feels it's not ok to have opposite sex friends great for them. I have them and wouldn't give them up.

But it would seem that some think that having boundaries eliminate all temptation but that's impossible. Someone who is going to cheat will find a way to cheat is bottom line. My x had several opposite sex friends. She cheated with a coworker and not one of them.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

Wolf1974 said:


> so where do the boundaries stop? No opposite sex co-workers, mailman, people at the gym, grocery store. Certainly never any guys night out of girls night out unless they just stay in all night.
> The boundaries are defined by the couple and I have no issue with whatever a couple comes up with. If anyone feels it's not ok to have opposite sex friends great for them. I have them and wouldn't give them up.
> 
> But it would seem that some think that having boundaries eliminate all temptation but that's impossible. Someone who is going to cheat will find a way to cheat is bottom line. My x had several opposite sex friends. She cheated with a coworker and not one of them.


Temptation can never be completely eliminated.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

Theseus said:


> Wow, I guess this will deserve a thread of it's own. So both of you would leave a bisexual spouse because it would make you insecure.
> 
> People change over time, it's especially common with women. It happened to one long-term girlfriend of mine. You should be flexible enough to deal with the changes and work them out, not resort to divorce. But that's just my 2 cents.


You cannot tell people what they _should _accept in their relationships. That is a very personal decision. 

I'm not sure why the whole "bisexual spouse" issue is so sensitive for you. 

Are people required to accept a spouse who has discovered that he/she is bisexual? :scratchhead:


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Caribbean Man said:


> And where in my post did I say that you, Theseus said that?
> 
> What part of my post referred to ANY part of your post or even made reference to your name?
> 
> If you read my post , I said accusing a PARTNER .
> Clearly I was referring to relationships as was the poster I quoted from.
> 
> Looks like somebody else is assuming bad faith eh?
> 
> *But I don't think he's man enough to apologize*.


hmm...

You realize that in the real world you are challenging someone to an exchange of manual conversations, right?

It is said that in internet threads it takes only so long for people to to want to kill eachother. I have seen forums like that, I thought TAM was an exception.

I think you should at least apologize for this remark. It could do no harm to become more friendly anyway.


----------



## CharlotteMcdougall

See_Listen_Love said:


> hmm...
> 
> You realize that in the real world you are challenging someone to an exchange of manual conversations, right?
> 
> It is said that in internet threads it takes only so long for people to to want to kill eachother. *I have seen forums like that, I thought TAM was an exception.*
> 
> I think you should at least apologize for this remark. It could do no harm to become more friendly anyway.


Me too.


----------



## Headspin

Wolf1974 said:


> Ok but have to ask. So are you saying that had you the power in your marriage to say no opposite sex friends then you wife would have never cheated?



Hi Wolf

Well no, my view is she would have cheated anyway BUT had I found this place 8 years ago I'd have definitely been of the mind set I now have and my laying down boundaries about same sex friends exes etc etc would have either resulted in her trying a lot harder to remain faithful or in realizing she couldn't have been honest and we'd have divorced

Result ? no wasted years and although hurt of course I would have at least had a lot more respect for the great years we DID actually have but now of course I look back on a serial cheat adulterer who made our lives a complete lie, destroyed repeatedly _from choice_ her husband, her children and other marriages for which I'll never have a slither of respect for her till the day I die.

Those decisions are obviously her fault entirely but I enabled this by trying not to clip the wings of somebody who's happiness depended on being able to fly.

Had I been more acutely aware of the danger of same sex friends exes etc I'd have nailed boundaries firmly down. She'd have tried to remain in them and would have very likely found she couldn't and I'd never have gone on to accept one infidelity after another in the hope we'd get everything back to the often brilliant time it was before

I'd have given her one free card but have given her the bullet if it happened again. I didn't do that and that is because I never said NO men friends unless they are gay and therefor not a threat

I disagree with a few about how I go about my next relationship because if any woman who says she loves me does not respect my wishes in this aspect that she has no exes or 'real' men friends then if that means I stay single for ever then I'll be happier with that than waiting for the inevitable time when I hear the 

love you but am not in love etc etc 
my needs are not being met 
you made me
I'm sorry BUT 
Ooo sorry but he understands me,
You made me work part time ....etc etc 

and the rest of the cheating bullsh!t script that we all often hear.

This is a really difficult area to manage in a marriage because nobody wants to be the relationship 'police' with people they love and who loves them but for me I can see I was dealing with somebody who if you gave a green light to just went smashing through it. Very difficulty for somebody like me to accept a new woman saying "yes but you can trust _*me*_ not to do that" whilst I have had two relationships over 20 odd years that did have that


----------



## Headspin

alexm said:


> I respectfully disagree - not that it's not right for YOU, but just in very general terms. To use a term I already used in this thread, it's cutting off your nose to spite your face.
> 
> In MY opinion, this decision about OSF is completely dependant upon you and your partner and the relationship you have with one another.
> 
> I was pretty much exactly like you with my ex wife, and I got burned too. But the way I see it is that that was on her, not on me allowing her to have OSFs.
> 
> Certainly it's not in our best interests to tempt fate like that, however I am of the firm belief that these people will do what they like no matter what rules one lays down. I could have been alpha male and put my foot down about what I do and don't expect in my relationship - she still would have found a way around it. By not creating those specific boundaries, I simply made it easier for her. As I said earlier, the man she ultimately left me for, and married, she met on the internet, rather innocuously as well. She wasn't trolling or anything. That's not really something I could have demanded she not do - talk to people online who share a common interest. Much like some of you here make friends with people of the opposite sex, it's innocent, but things can turn on a dime even if that wasn't one's intention from the start.
> 
> It happens, it will happen, and there's not a whole lot anybody can do to protect oneself from it. A cheater will cheat no matter what. That's not to say we should allow our spouses to go out on a Friday night with an OSF or anything, but the bottom line is, if he/she is going to cheat, they're going to cheat. At work, at the coffee shop, online, at the gym, whatever. It'll happen if they want it to.
> 
> Had I started off my relationship with my current wife like that, she would have told me where to stick it. She knows what my boundaries are (there was an incident with a co-worker a few years back, which both I and her dealt with), however there was never any need for a proper discussion on what I expect from her in terms of friendships, etc.
> 
> In essence, I am coming from the same ordeal as you are, however I did not decide that any future woman I dated would be told what she can and can't do. Basically, if it was like that from the beginning, that woman wouldn't have been for me. I wouldn't have asked her to stop it, I would have let her go, and if she needed a reason, I would have told her straight up that our boundaries were not the same. I would much rather not have to tell somebody this kind of thing and expect them to change, because the truth is, they likely wouldn't, and they'd eventually resent you for even asking it.
> 
> It's not a whole lot different than mismatched sexual desire, imo. If it's obvious you're not a match from the beginning, then see ya later, it ain't gonna change long term. If it pops it's head up later on, then there's an issue in the relationship. My ex wife didn't have male friends until she lost 50lbs, discovered the gym, and realized she liked getting hit on. Before that, she used to tell guys where to go just for looking at her, and she thought men were dirtbags for ogling other women.
> 
> Use your experience with the ex in order to choose your future partner(s) more carefully, rather than use it to draw lines in the sand, know what I mean? It really is very much dependant on one's partner, rather than black and white.


Actually I don't think we really disagree. 

It all obviously depends upon what you as a couple are like the chemistry etc etc but mstbx is weak - if you raise your voice she jumps and actually listens to you!, but you're afraid to raise your voice for fearing rocking the boat so she effectively had the power. Had I manned up, laid down the law about what she could do or not do in respect of other men she'd have buckled down probably for a while or she'd have gone. I gave her the opportunity to do 'the easy' the middle bit to cake eat have the easy home life whilst eating lolly and knowing what I now know from here and other experiences I know that I was one thousand percent wrong to deal with it like did 

I wont ever make that mistake again. 

It's rule one for me now 

You have any exes on the scene? kiss them goodbye permanently (unless tied in with kids) 
You have any single men friends or men in 'troubled' relationships then kiss them goodbye too


----------



## Caribbean Man

See_Listen_Love said:


> hmm...
> 
> You realize that in the real world you are challenging someone to an exchange of manual conversations, right?
> 
> It is said that in internet threads it takes only so long for people to to want to kill eachother. I have seen forums like that, I thought TAM was an exception.
> 
> I think you should at least apologize for this remark. It could do no harm to become more friendly anyway.


Hmmm,:scratchhead:

Have a nice day.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Headspin said:


> *I wont ever make that mistake again.
> *
> *It's rule one for me now *
> 
> You have any exes on the scene? kiss them goodbye permanently (unless tied in with kids)
> You have any single men friends or men in 'troubled' relationships then kiss them goodbye too


And I think that's what a few people on the thread are missing. People make their boundaries because of past experiences , and also because of what the see going on around them .
Each persons boundary would be different based on their own experience.


----------



## Caribbean Man

tacoma said:


> This is why I don't have female friends.
> I know the saying goes "Men can't be friends with women because they want to sleep with them" but I see it work both ways.
> 
> I have rarely had any woman attempt to befriend me who didn't have other ideas tucked away somewhere in her head.
> 
> I make a habit of staying out of situations that can cause this trouble and opposite sex friends are one of those situations.
> 
> Is this because I'm weak?
> I don't think so, I've turned down opportunities that I would have killed for were I single so I think my emotional/mental state is pretty strong BUT.....I'm taking no chances with the health of my marriage and family.
> 
> I'm just not going there.


Well you and I are different in this regard.
But I fully understand , and agree with your stance because it's your experience.

I've had similar experiences with women , but I tend to select my friends carefully.

Both my wife and I do have opposite sex friends , but we also have certain strict conditions. One of them is that we both listen to each other's feelings and concerns over those friends ,and we both have veto power over each other's opposite sex friends.

Also , our friends are friends of our marriage, so we do group stuff together lots of times , and they are married too.
For eg , I have a female friend who travels a lot. But she a fashionista , every time she travels , she shops and returns with clothing and stuff for my wife. Whenever my wife travels, she purchases souvenirs and stuff especially for her. Lol, she doesn't buy any gifts for me , here's the purpose of our friendship. She helps me a lot with my business and goes out of her way to do so. I do the same for her. We exchange favours and in terms of business , we don't compete against each other , even though we are in the same type of business. That's what makes friends , we have a certain level of respect between each other.

However , my wife and I don't have exes as friends.

So the rule is simple.
If she uncomfortable about anything with one of my friend , no matter how irrational it sounds to me , I drop the activity with that friend or drop the friend.
I have the same veto power over hers.
We put each other's feeling above our friends.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Theseus said:


> So in other words, you tried to bait me into bringing my personal life into this discussion, I refused, so now your panties are in a bunch. Very mature.



Nobody's baiting anybody to post details of their personal life ,Theseus.
In any event , you have already posted details of your personal life on TAM before , so what's with the conspiracy theory?

The OP asked for us to post about our PERSONAL LIFE in this thread.

Everyone else has posted about their life and you've only had negative comments to make about theirs. 

Why can't you post about yours and let others comment?


----------



## NextTimeAround

Theseus said:


> Is that really necessary?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is all nonsense. NextTimeAround addressed me, and you said you agreed. So it's pretty natural that someone would assume your very next sentence was addressed to me. That's all.
> 
> 
> 
> *Red herring. Her gender was not part of my discussion and not germane to the topic at hand*.


Subconsciously, it is. Society in general are more tolerant to the idea of women getting close and close enough to be erotic. Maybe there are some stats out there that support a husband being less concerned that their wife is bi as opposed to a woman being concerned that her husband is bi.

Yes, I've read these things that say that bi is not 50/50. Someone can be only 10% bi. But I think on TAM we all agree that there are no gradations to cheating. My husband sleeping with one of his man friends just once is as bad as my husband sleeping with a female friend just once.

I suppose just like it's been tested that when a man is asked" would you have sex with a random woman" many of them answer yes because they are only thinking about the sex and that the only women that exist in their universe are hot women.

When women are asked the question "would you have sex with a random man" most women will say no because the existence of undesirable who want to have sex with them is very real.

Theseus, perhaps you're in the man group if you were asked "would you mind if you're wife "discovered" that she was bi, so much so that she needed to warn you, I mean tell you." 

So the type of man who would say yes to this is most likely thinking of hot steaming FFM sex where his wife would lead the way. That would be great if that's what you want and that's what you got. But you may have also opened a Pandora's box to which your bi wife may simply say when you want to put the breaks on things "I thought you thought it was hot that I am bi ......"

As a woman, I would be putting a lid on that box Day 1.


----------



## Caribbean Man

NextTimeAround said:


> Theseus, perhaps you're in the man group if you were asked "would you mind if you're wife "discovered" that she was bi, so much so that she needed to warn you, I mean tell you."
> 
> *So the type of man who would say yes to this is most likely thinking of hot steaming FFM sex where his wife would lead the way. That would be great if that's what you want and that's what you got.*


Or maybe even a MMF or just might be fantasizing about his wife having sex with another man.

Mostly men seem to have that type of fantasy.

Those that have that type of fantasy, tend to believe that it is a way to prove that they are strong and secure in their relationship, by allowing their wives to have sex with other men. 

Their belief is that people who are against their own spouses having sex with other people are insecure.

I think everyone is entitled to their own beliefs as I have stated numerous times on this thread. 
But I don't think it's right to judge others based on your own little kink or fantasy.

There are a few other people on TAM with open marriages or relationships and I never see them calling others who prefer closed relationships insecure. I know this as a matter of fact because I did a thread on the subject and quite a few came out and said so. I don't condemn them because that's _their_ marital arrangement and boundaries.


----------



## Wolf1974

Headspin said:


> Hi Wolf
> 
> Well no, my view is she would have cheated anyway BUT had I found this place 8 years ago I'd have definitely been of the mind set I now have and my laying down boundaries about same sex friends exes etc etc would have either resulted in her trying a lot harder to remain faithful or in realizing she couldn't have been honest and we'd have divorced
> 
> Result ? no wasted years and although hurt of course I would have at least had a lot more respect for the great years we DID actually have but now of course I look back on a serial cheat adulterer who made our lives a complete lie, destroyed repeatedly _from choice_ her husband, her children and other marriages for which I'll never have a slither of respect for her till the day I die.
> 
> Those decisions are obviously her fault entirely but I enabled this by trying not to clip the wings of somebody who's happiness depended on being able to fly.
> 
> Had I been more acutely aware of the danger of same sex friends exes etc I'd have nailed boundaries firmly down. She'd have tried to remain in them and would have very likely found she couldn't and I'd never have gone on to accept one infidelity after another in the hope we'd get everything back to the often brilliant time it was before
> 
> I'd have given her one free card but have given her the bullet if it happened again. I didn't do that and that is because I never said NO men friends unless they are gay and therefor not a threat
> 
> I disagree with a few about how I go about my next relationship because if any woman who says she loves me does not respect my wishes in this aspect that she has no exes or 'real' men friends then if that means I stay single for ever then I'll be happier with that than waiting for the inevitable time when I hear the
> 
> love you but am not in love etc etc
> my needs are not being met
> you made me
> I'm sorry BUT
> Ooo sorry but he understands me,
> You made me work part time ....etc etc
> 
> and the rest of the cheating bullsh!t script that we all often hear.
> 
> This is a really difficult area to manage in a marriage because nobody wants to be the relationship 'police' with people they love and who loves them but for me I can see I was dealing with somebody who if you gave a green light to just went smashing through it. Very difficulty for somebody like me to accept a new woman saying "yes but you can trust _*me*_ not to do that" whilst I have had two relationships over 20 odd years that did have that


Gotcha and I appreciate you sharing. Your x cheated with friends and mine with a guy she met at work for a month. Sounds like the one area we both can agree on is that we need to choose better women in the future.


----------



## krismimo

For us we have opposite sex friends but were usually always together. And my hubby has one or two that he has known since he was a kid and they are pretty respectful, I have a few but not many. And then there are other married couples we friends with as well. I'm pretty lucky if my husband feels that someone is being weird or inappropiate he cuts them off distance himself and he tells me what happened. I do the same. It shows we TRUST each other. The thing is everyone has free will I don't care what rules we all make people will either choose to respect and live by them or not.


----------



## over20

nuclearnightmare said:


> over20:
> 
> well I have another question for you, which looks like will be posted on page 13. I can also see fights involving you starting on page 8-9..so i hope you're still around to answer it.
> 
> your husband must have had two concerns when you first talked with him:
> 
> 1. WTF with the married guy/his friend asking you to have sex with him. e.g. how to deal with him etc
> 
> 2. concerned that you had feelings for this guy
> 
> if it was me then I'd find #2 a lot more tough than #1 'Rejuvenating' a marriage is a lot easier said than done. what did you guys do? how did you approach it?



Yes, number 2 was more difficult. We did go to MC a couple of times. We never saw each other. My husband was always gone, he is a bit of a workaholic. I knew this when I married him. I love him and adore him but missed him so much.

I had to tell Dh why I liked this guy. Dh was ashamed at himself and me. I will be brutally honest. I loved the offer. Those flattery feelings are very addictive. I have been married over 20 yrs (hence over 20), have had 4 kids and it just felt good to be wanted by another man....sounds really bad I know but I am being honest. The fact that we were really close to the other couple and loved them like family added gas to the fire. 

Dh and I really became closer. I had to tell him where I was vulnerable..I had to be an open book. He also shared with me how he struggles with women. I felt like such trash for a long time. It has made us stronger though. I used to judge people very harshly on this topic and now being so humbled, I show mercy and compassion.....it has been a long road 

Thank you for not judging me


----------



## star2916

***Accusing a partner of being insecure when they have very legitimate concerns is a manipulative , bullying tactic used mostly by narcissists , and people who see themselves as superior in relationships.****

I have to agree 1000000xxx


----------



## Roselyn

No opposite sex friends for either of us. Too much risk to temptations with opposite sex friends. We don't have other couple friends either, just attend work-related functions where we'll socialize with couples. Otherwise, we're too busy at work & doing chores at home. We prefer to entertain each other when we get home from jobs.


----------



## Coco2014

Wolf1974 said:


> so where do the boundaries stop? No opposite sex co-workers, mailman, people at the gym, grocery store. Certainly never any guys night out of girls night out unless they just stay in all night.
> The boundaries are defined by the couple and I have no issue with whatever a couple comes up with. If anyone feels it's not ok to have opposite sex friends great for them. I have them and wouldn't give them up.
> 
> But it would seem that some think that having boundaries eliminate all temptation but that's impossible. Someone who is going to cheat will find a way to cheat is bottom line. My x had several opposite sex friends. She cheated with a coworker and not one of them.


I bet your X's coworker became her friend first, then became her lover. He just did not stay in the friend zone very long before it went further and you caught her. Only series cheater will cheat no matter what. Most people cheated just because there opportunities and they were not able to resist the temptation. It could happen to anybody.


----------



## Wolf1974

Coco2014 said:


> I bet your X's coworker became her friend first, then became her lover. He just did not stay in the friend zone very long before it went further and you caught her. Only series cheater will cheat no matter what. Most people cheated just because there opportunities and they were not able to resist the temptation. It could happen to anybody.


she is a serial cheater. She has cheated on every relationship she has had. 

And I disagree it can happen to anybody. I have several female friends. Never slept with a one and never cheated . What I do agree with is we all have temptations. But In the end we all make a decision. Some for the better and some for the worse but they are our decisions none the less.


----------



## 20yrsofmarriage

There's no way I'm reading this whole thread but I noticed that everyone on the first page is banned. Geez the shelf life for posts here don't have expiration dates I see!


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Wolf1974 said:


> she is a serial cheater. She has cheated on every relationship she has had.
> 
> And I disagree it can happen to anybody. I have several female friends. Never slept with a one and never cheated . What I do agree with is we all have temptations. But In the end we all make a decision. Some for the better and some for the worse but they are our decisions none the less.


What actually is talked about is the structure of sinning. In Christian literature there are tons of books written on the subject. Everybody sins, that is for sure, and seldom a person is able to withstand the ultimate temptation.

Almost all people sin if they think they can get away with it, that is the sad truth I think...

For 99%, OK I give you that, 97% of us, it is just a matter of circumstances.

The percentage comes from people I know that really would rather die than commit certain conscious sins. I really do not think that is more than a couple of people on every hundred. They are the ones that would die on the stake for beliefs.


----------



## Coco2014

Wolf1974 said:


> she is a serial cheater. She has cheated on every relationship she has had.
> 
> And I disagree it can happen to anybody. I have several female friends. Never slept with a one and never cheated . What I do agree with is we all have temptations. But In the end we all make a decision. Some for the better and some for the worse but they are our decisions none the less.


I don't mean everybody will cheat with their Opposite sex friends. I mean the temptation is there for everybody and everybody could have the moments to be vulnerable.


----------



## Coco2014

See_Listen_Love said:


> Everybody sins, that is for sure, and seldom a person is able to withstand the ultimate temptation.
> 
> Almost all people sin if they think they can get away with it, that is the sad truth I think...
> 
> For 99%, OK I give you that, 97% of us, it is just a matter of circumstances.
> 
> The percentage comes from people I know that really would rather die than commit certain conscious sins. I really do not think that is more than a couple of people on every hundred. They are the ones that would die on the stake for beliefs.


I 100% agree. It primarily depends on the circumstances, not on the individual people. It is not about trust somebody or not, it is all about respect human nature. People who think only bad people cheat, or as long as they have moral they will not cheat no matter what...they haven't seen enough.

Only series cheater will cheat no matter what is the circumstance. But most people who did cheat are not series cheaters.


----------



## 20yrsofmarriage

We moved to a state where an old high school friend lives who happens to be a male. We ( meaning he and a few high school friends that make their way thru) get together once or twice a yr and go out. Been married twenty yrs and I've never cheated. I've had men at work flirt with me, guys at the store, or just out in public,and I just brushed it off. I could have had a one night stand affair at any of those times if I wanted to, however I've never been tempted in those situations bc there was no connection. However with my old HS friend the thought was there and it scared the crap out of me.

One time we all went out ( hubby trusts me and didn't join) and my friend drank too much and was getting a little touchy with me. I just ignored it, but all night I wondered "what if". Temptation is only tempting if there is something there. I'm not tempted by some strange man approaching me, whether he's fine or not. However someone who I have history with, and that history was fun and care free... Yea temptation. I would never hang out with him alone or put myself in a position where it would be hard to walk away, but I recognize those feelings that are there.

I've seen ppl in happy marriages cheat, so I always laugh when ppl say it could never happen!! I'm so anti cheating, can't stand to hear about it, been faithfully married 20 yrs (not all happy) and can proudly say I haven't done it. But I'm only human and people make mistakes. I'd hope I'm strong enough to never ever cheat, but that's where boundaries come in to prevent such things!


----------



## Wolf1974

See_Listen_Love said:


> What actually is talked about is the structure of sinning. In Christian literature there are tons of books written on the subject. Everybody sins, that is for sure, and seldom a person is able to withstand the ultimate temptation.
> 
> Almost all people sin if they think they can get away with it, that is the sad truth I think...
> 
> For 99%, OK I give you that, 97% of us, it is just a matter of circumstances.
> 
> The percentage comes from people I know that really would rather die than commit certain conscious sins. I really do not think that is more than a couple of people on every hundred. They are the ones that would die on the stake for beliefs.


Well if that's your world then I can't refute that. In mine it's less often. I would guess that maybe 60-70% would cheat if they thought they could totally get away with it? Course just speculation. I was never one of those people and when I promise to do something I follow through .


----------



## Wolf1974

Coco2014 said:


> I don't mean everybody will cheat with their Opposite sex friends. I mean the temptation is there for everybody and everybody could have the moments to be vulnerable.


Yeah I got that and as I stated earlier in the thread we all come from our past experiences. My x didn't cheat on me with a male friend...and she had several but rather a co-worker she barely knew. So I still don't have problems with opposite sex friends. I have several female friends I will occasionally even have lunch with or hike with alone and my GF has a few male friends as well. Was never an issue for either of us and she has met all my friends and always invited to hang with us. And often does. She even will do things with them without me lol.

Now had my x cheated with a male friend of ours you bet I would have a different viewpoint on the matter. But not how mine played out. We are all walking products of our past.


----------



## TRy

Wolf1974 said:


> Yeah I got that and as I stated earlier in the thread we all come from our past experiences. My x didn't cheat on me with a male friend...and she had several but rather a co-worker she barely knew. So I still don't have problems with opposite sex friends.


 Here is the rub. All friends start out as people that you barely know. The fact that your marriage had boundaries that allowed for opposite sex friends, is what allowed the co-worker easy access into your wife's life as he successfully tried to seduced her. If your boundaries say that she can have opposite sex friends that are not friends of the marriage, and that are not governed by special opposite sex friend boundaries, then he was able to win her over without crossing any of your boundaries at first. If you go to sites that tell you how to steal another man's woman, the number one thing that they tell you to do is to approach them first as a friend; they tell you that few women will leave their man for a stranger, so you must first put effort into getting to know them before seducing them. Your boundaries allowed that.


----------



## Wolf1974

TRy said:


> Here is the rub. All friends start out as people that you barely know. The fact that your marriage had boundaries that allowed for opposite sex friends, is what allowed the co-worker easy access into your wife's life as he successfully tried to seduced her. If your boundaries say that she can have opposite sex friends that are not friends of the marriage, and that are not governed by special opposite sex friend boundaries, then he was able to win her over without crossing any of your boundaries at first. If you go to sites that tell you how to steal another man's woman, the number one thing that they tell you to do is to approach them first as a friend; they tell you that few women will leave their man for a stranger, so you must first put effort into getting to know them before seducing them. *Your boundaries allowed that.*


Yep and always will. I refuse to control a woman by saying you are not allowed to work and if you do you're not allowed to talk to members of the opposite sex.....cause well that's just silly and controlling. My x didn't cheat because of a friendship, and I use the term loosely cause she barley knew the guy, she cheated because she is a cheater. Just that ......a no character cheater. Plenty of men work with women and don't screw them. Plenty of women work with men and don't screw them either. But cheaters are going to cheat. I have had several temptations in life and my career and never cheated. You either have character or you don't. Women get hit on at the grocery store, the mall, the gym and on and on.

So I just have a boundry that I wont date some who cheated in the past. I glossed over that little gem from my x and bought when she said she learned from it and would never do that again So I just don't date them and have stuck to that conviction and its paid off in the 3 years since my divorce.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Wolf1974 said:


> Yep and always will. I refuse to control a woman by saying you are not allowed to work and if you do you're not allowed to talk to members of the opposite sex.....cause well that's just silly and controlling.





> So I still don't have problems with opposite sex friends. I have several female friends I will occasionally even have lunch with or hike with alone and my GF has a few male friends as well. Was never an issue for either of us and she has met all my friends and always invited to hang with us. And often does. She even will do things with them without me lol.


There is a world of space between these two way's of dealing with it. The second one is asking for trouble in my opinion. 

You can have the boundary of no lunches/diners/hanging out alone with someone of the other sex. That is not being controlling, just acknowledging the 'Not just friends' themes.


----------



## Coco2014

When the OSF is very unattractive, I believe they are real friends. And the spouse normally is comfortable with it since cannot sense a threat.


----------



## DoF

Coco2014 said:


> When the OSF is very unattractive, I believe they are real friends. And the spouse normally is comfortable with it since cannot sense a threat.


So what you are saying is "it's ok to have an ugly opposite sex friend".

Good luck finding a guy with one.....most man will NOT be friends with someone they wouldn't bang (better believe it).

ENTIRE FOUNDATION of men/female friendship is based on that.

And now you see the reason why I believe men/females cannot be "real/true" friends.


----------



## DoF

Wolf1974 said:


> Yep and always will. I refuse to control a woman by saying you are not allowed to work and if you do you're not allowed to talk to members of the opposite sex.....cause well that's just silly and controlling.


I will have to stop you there.

You can label it "silly or controlling" but the labels really don't mean a thing.

It comes down to person's expectations/beliefs etc on the subject.

For example:

Person A (let's assume they are swingers) - there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with my loved one being intimate with other people.

Person B (let's assume they are mono) - sleeping with other people is completely out of the question.

B can be very easily "labelled" as controlling. Who the hell are they to tell you what to do what not to do.

Again, it ALL goes back to THE PERSON and THEIR EXPECTATIONS/BELIEFS etc.

And no, I don't think asking your loved one to not befriend members of opposite sex is controlling AT ALL. We are talking BASIC HUMAN NATURE. 2 members of opposite sex (regardless of how strong/self control/will they might have not to cheat) WILL develop feelings for one another IN TIME. In some way/shape or form. More time invested, more closer the relationship etc.

NOW, you add the fact that most men will not be "friends" with an unattractive woman......and fact that LIFE/MARRIAGE/RELATIONSHIP throws all kinds of problems/twist that can VERY easily sway you from "100% faithful" to "ehh, he is ****ed up and this guy is right here".....and your beloved "friend" supporting you.

It's a recipe for disaster.

I tend to think of opposite sex friends as Facebook. You simply don't know what you are getting into. it will lead you down road you never thought existed/imagined.....and you often won't realize it until it's too late.

It's risky, bring 0 value to life and simply inappropriate and disrespectful towards your partner/marriage.

Mind you, I might have a VERY different opinion on above if I didn't witness/see what I've seen with MOST men. And also if many women weren't so naive to above fact/or assumed it.

:scratchhead:


----------



## Married but Happy

If you feel your SO has trouble with boundaries or common sense, you may want to negotiate some rules with them. Otherwise, I'm in favor of trust and open communication.

Even with rules, if someone wants to violate them, they will, especially if they are unreasonable or overly restrictive. And they will hide it, even if there is nothing improper going on. You can't control someone else - only yourself. You can enforce consequences, however.


----------



## DoF

Married but Happy said:


> If you feel your SO has trouble with boundaries or common sense, you may want to negotiate some rules with them. Otherwise, I'm in favor of trust and open communication.
> 
> Even with rules, if someone wants to violate them, they will, especially if they are unreasonable or overly restrictive. And they will hide it, even if there is nothing improper going on. You can't control someone else - only yourself. You can enforce consequences, however.


As long as we agree that by enforcing/communicating consequences........you are, indirectly controlling them.



You see, ANYTHING has pros and cons. It's how you look at it is what matters.

Many will look at your paragraph and think "these are great things to have to keep a good relationship/communication going in a healthy marriage"

And SOME, will look at it and say "it's CONTROLLING, you are a dictator etc".

It's important to remember that your partner usually means no harm and is simply trying to help. Be optimistic and happy vs down/negative.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Coco2014 said:


> When the OSF is very unattractive, I believe they are real friends. And the spouse normally is comfortable with it since cannot sense a threat.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My husband's just a friend ex is self described as 50 pounds overweight. In one of her e-mails to him, she psycho babbled about how "her weight doesn't define her" and that "she knows that she is not the prettiest one in the bunch." 

Still, my husband put up with her verbal abuse, called her "his only friend in London" (he had been living in London for 18 months by then). 

My husband's first tactic was to play down everything. He didn't find her friends all that interesting, he told me. And guess what? She even told him that her current boyfriend was better in bed with her than he was. 

SO, WHY ON EARTH _*WOULD*_ YOU WANT TO REMAIN FRIENDS WITH HER?

Coco, if you heard stuff like that from your partner, would you believe that the OSF was "safe"?


----------



## Married but Happy

I said nothing about communicating consequences beforehand. I do believe in making my perspective and values known, and someone can figure out for themselves what the consequences could be for various actions that I would consider harmful. Since we've discussed our views extensively, and set no rules other than doing our best to maintain good communication, I don't think there's anything controlling in that.

If something were done that violated my values, I'd then decide what response I'd make, depending on the circumstances. That's responsive, not prescriptive or controlling. I probably should not have said "enforce consequences" when I meant that I would choose what I'd do and do it - consequences, but not rule based. They are free to do whatever they feel is best for them, knowing I'll do what's best for me.


----------



## Coco2014

NextTimeAround said:


> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My husband's just a friend ex is self described as 50 pounds overweight. In one of her e-mails to him, she psycho babbled about how "her weight doesn't define her" and that "she knows that she is not the prettiest one in the bunch."
> 
> Still, my husband put up with her verbal abuse, called her "his only friend in London" (he had been living in London for 18 months by then).
> 
> My husband's first tactic was to play down everything. He didn't find her friends all that interesting, he told me. And guess what? She even told him that her current boyfriend was better in bed with her than he was.
> 
> SO, WHY ON EARTH _*WOULD*_ YOU WANT TO REMAIN FRIENDS WITH HER?
> 
> Coco, if you heard stuff like that from your partner, would you believe that the OSF was "safe"?


Did you tell him to cut her off? What did he say?

On other forums, I have heard some similar complaining from women that their spouses have close OSF. For example, one woman said her husband’s close female friend would call him frequently after work. They went to a lot of occasions together- sometimes with the wife, sometimes without the wife. This really bothered her and she told her husband about it. They had been to marriage counselor for a couple of years for this issue and her husband still insisted keeping his close female friend. 

When you have a situation like this, the husband’s behavior has announced what kind of person he is. I don’t care what they say. What kind of crap they pull out: like “we are just friends” “she is like a sister to me”. His ACTION tells you that he is that kind of person that he will value his OSF above his wife’s feelings. Their OSF is more important than family. 

When you know what kind of person he is, then the ball is in your park. It is time for the wife to make a decision: live with it or leave it? You cannot change him; the only person you can change is yourself. You accept it or emotionally detach from him, then eventually leave him. Let him be with someone who will buy “him and his OSF” the whole package.


----------



## Coco2014

In most cases, when men and women are real friends, it is either one of them is gay or one of them is very unattractive. If one feels the other one is attractive, then they are not “Just friends”. 

When married people have OSF, you need to handle it with extra caution and with respect to your spouse. Just the fact that this topic will always cause heated debate indicates that opposite sex friendship is much more complicated and delicate than same sex friendship. 

For those married people who would spend a lot of one-on-one time with their OSF, confide in their OSF, go to their OSF to meet their emotional needs, and claim they are “ Just friends”, I think they are either really naive to think they are moral superman that they can fight temptation constantly and will always win, or , they just enjoy the attention and fun, just to make daily life more entertaining.


----------



## Wolf1974

DoF said:


> I will have to stop you there.
> 
> You can label it "silly or controlling" but the labels really don't mean a thing.
> 
> It comes down to person's expectations/beliefs etc on the subject.
> 
> For example:
> 
> Person A (let's assume they are swingers) - there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with my loved one being intimate with other people.
> 
> Person B (let's assume they are mono) - sleeping with other people is completely out of the question.
> 
> B can be very easily "labelled" as controlling. Who the hell are they to tell you what to do what not to do.
> 
> Again, it ALL goes back to THE PERSON and THEIR EXPECTATIONS/BELIEFS etc.
> 
> And no, I don't think asking your loved one to not befriend members of opposite sex is controlling AT ALL. We are talking BASIC HUMAN NATURE. 2 members of opposite sex (regardless of how strong/self control/will they might have not to cheat) WILL develop feelings for one another IN TIME. In some way/shape or form. More time invested, more closer the relationship etc.
> 
> NOW, you add the fact that most men will not be "friends" with an unattractive woman......and fact that LIFE/MARRIAGE/RELATIONSHIP throws all kinds of problems/twist that can VERY easily sway you from "100% faithful" to "ehh, he is ****ed up and this guy is right here".....and your beloved "friend" supporting you.
> 
> It's a recipe for disaster.
> 
> I tend to think of opposite sex friends as Facebook. You simply don't know what you are getting into. it will lead you down road you never thought existed/imagined.....and you often won't realize it until it's too late.
> 
> It's risky, bring 0 value to life and simply inappropriate and disrespectful towards your partner/marriage.
> 
> Mind you, I might have a VERY different opinion on above if I didn't witness/see what I've seen with MOST men. And also if many women weren't so naive to above fact/or assumed it.
> 
> :scratchhead:


And that's your opinion DOF and I respect it, but I don't agree with it. That's not been my experience nor my perspective. Opposite sex friends have never been an issue for me. Not that my GF has them or that I do. I know where the line is and don't cross it and she does the same. If she does she is gone.

I also won't give up my friends, male or female, for my GF. I cherish my friendships and don't make/have many because I hold them also to high standards as I hold myself. So those that have been there for me aren't gettitng dumped because of someone I'm dating. That was an issue one time with a girl I was seeing and the ultimatum was thrown down and so she had to go.

Some people have problems with opposite sex friends and that's ok by me so long as both people are ok with whatever rules they establish in the confines of the relationship. Same with those who aren't ok with opposite sex friends. I harbor nothing against the girl that wanted me to dump my best friend cause she was a woman. What I do harbor resentment for is that she pretended to be ok with it for 6 months until it finally exploded and became a big thing. That could have all been avoided


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## Wolf1974

Coco2014 said:


> I don't mean everybody will cheat with their Opposite sex friends. I mean the temptation is there for everybody and everybody could have the moments to be vulnerable.


That only limits one of the many temptations we have in life. Actually I have been propositioned at bars, at work, and hit on several times in the gym. None of my opposite sex friends ever hit on me or tried to seduce me. If they did I would be done with them for sure. And I'm surely not attracted to them. If I was I would have asked them out years ago lol


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## Wolf1974

DoF said:


> As long as we agree that by enforcing/communicating consequences........you are, indirectly controlling them.
> 
> 
> 
> You see, ANYTHING has pros and cons. It's how you look at it is what matters.
> 
> Many will look at your paragraph and think "these are great things to have to keep a good relationship/communication going in a healthy marriage"
> 
> And SOME, will look at it and say "it's CONTROLLING, you are a dictator etc".
> 
> It's important to remember that your partner usually means no harm and is simply trying to help. Be optimistic and happy vs down/negative.


in life all we can really control is ourselves. So I told my x when we were in pre marital counseling like a lifetime ago that the absolute one deal breaker I had was no cheating. I was scared she would cheat on me but not smart enought to realize she would. She knew 100% that was a deal breaker. She didn't care and did it anyway. 

If I had been able to actually control her she wouldn't have done that because that's what control means. No amount of pressure or consequences steered Her from the path. She made her decision and I stuck by mine to leave because what I did was the only thing I can really control.


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## DoF

Wolf1974 said:


> And that's your opinion DOF and I respect it, but I don't agree with it. That's not been my experience nor my perspective. Opposite sex friends have never been an issue for me. Not that my GF has them or that I do. I know where the line is and don't cross it and she does the same. If she does she is gone.
> 
> I also won't give up my friends, male or female, for my GF. I cherish my friendships and don't make/have many because I hold them also to high standards as I hold myself. So those that have been there for me aren't gettitng dumped because of someone I'm dating. That was an issue one time with a girl I was seeing and the ultimatum was thrown down and so she had to go.
> 
> Some people have problems with opposite sex friends and that's ok by me so long as both people are ok with whatever rules they establish in the confines of the relationship. Same with those who aren't ok with opposite sex friends. I harbor nothing against the girl that wanted me to dump my best friend cause she was a woman. What I do harbor resentment for is that she pretended to be ok with it for 6 months until it finally exploded and became a big thing. That could have all been avoided


You know what I say, whatever floats that boat! 

Can't really disagree with anything you said above.


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## Coco2014

Wolf1974 said:


> in life all we can really control is ourselves. So I told my x when we were in pre marital counseling like a lifetime ago that the absolute one deal breaker I had was no cheating. I was scared she would cheat on me but not smart enought to realize she would. She knew 100% that was a deal breaker. She didn't care and did it anyway.
> 
> If I had been able to actually control her she wouldn't have done that because that's what control means. No amount of pressure or consequences steered Her from the path. She made her decision and I stuck by mine to leave because what I did was the only thing I can really control.


If she is a series cheater, then it was not she did not care, nor she made the decision to cheat, it was out of her control. At least that was my understanding of series cheaters by seeing and hearing so many stories. It was part of their character, it was in them, it was like a personality disorder. They could not help but keep cheating, even they are aware of the consequence. They are just not committed relationship materials.


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## AliceA

I've never dictated to anyone I've dated who they could and couldn't be friends with. I've never asked them to dump a friend. I haven't always liked their friends and that just resulted in me declining invitations to spend time with those particular people; my choice.

If DH had had a female best friend when we met (and he sort of did, but she is his sister), not related, I would've steered clear. Just an instinct of self preservation. Yet I do not agree in trying to tell your spouse who they can be friends with.

This is the difference between controlling behaviour and boundaries I think. I didn't go into a relationship and expect someone to change in order to stay within my boundaries. I found a person who was naturally within them from the get go.


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