# How my marriage changed - and not for the better



## EW2022 (5 mo ago)

After a brief intro in the new members intro section, I'm going to start chronicaling the journey of how we got to where we're stuck. It's a long story - sweet, sad, depressing, joyful. And there are a lot of factors I'll try to explain. First, in the new members intro, I joked about sexless marriage. Advice to leave for someone who will give me sex is a non-starter. A major part of the problem is mine and is medical, though how we got to this point involves actions of both of us. So if your answer is "All problems solved by D", save your typing please. It's going to take a while to go through the saga, so I'll start with the early phases of our marriage.

We met in the spring semester of my senior year; by July, we knew we wanted to get married, which we did in December. That was 41 years ago. Hasty, and despite our problems, I don't regret making that somewhat rash decision. I completed my MS while she worked, then we went to another university where I did my PhD, and she did her BS and MS - all degrees for both of us are in engineering. We got great job offers and moved; we've lived in SE Texas ever since (33 years now).

The first difficulties came when we tried to start a family - first was a miscarriage, then fertility assist, and we had our first son. Nothing like infertility treatments to take spontaneity out of romance! So new dynamic - she wanted to be "super mom" as well as "super engineer" at work. And as is usual, I felt that I was low on her priority list. Second was full IVF, and she was bedridden in the hospital for weeks before an emergency C-section. Lower on the list. Also, complications ended ability to have more. It took a long while for her to recover, and with also 2 young kids, romance just wasn't in the cards very often. 

I'm going to have to pause here - got an urgent matter to attend to, plus it gives you all a chance to either ask for more or tell me I'm wasting electrons. And there IS a lot more. I'll try to complete the saga this evening after dinner.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

EW2022 said:


> After a brief intro in the new members intro section, I'm going to start chronicaling the journey of how we got to where we're stuck. It's a long story - sweet, sad, depressing, joyful. And there are a lot of factors I'll try to explain. First, in the new members intro, I joked about sexless marriage. Advice to leave for someone who will give me sex is a non-starter. A major part of the problem is mine and is medical, though how we got to this point involves actions of both of us. So if your answer is "All problems solved by D", save your typing please. It's going to take a while to go through the saga, so I'll start with the early phases of our marriage.
> 
> We met in the spring semester of my senior year; by July, we knew we wanted to get married, which we did in December. That was 41 years ago. Hasty, and despite our problems, I don't regret making that somewhat rash decision. I completed my MS while she worked, then we went to another university where I did my PhD, and she did her BS and MS - all degrees for both of us are in engineering. We got great job offers and moved; we've lived in SE Texas ever since (33 years now).
> 
> ...


I think I understand. Both my wife and I are type A's. However, our problem started just shy of 40 years of marriage after our children left for successful lives on their own. I was 60 and my wife was almost a year younger. He told me she had no sexual desire for me and would never have sex with me again.

After a while and a lot of thinking and introspection, I made a promise to myself. I promised myself that I would be in a loving sexual relationship with a woman by a certain milestone birthday. Then after reading a lot of self-help relationship books, I figured out that if I didn't learn from my mistakes and change myself, that I would likely end up in another failed relationship after I divorce my wife. It was at this point that I decided I would read everything that I could about relationships and create a much better me that would be attractive to other women. Because I still loved my wife, I decided that I would try to save our marriage. If I could great, if not, well at least I tried and I would have perfected new techniques with my wife in trying to get a woman to fall in love with me.

Long story short, three books really helped me. Two books are really mostly the same but from different perspectives. Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy and M.W. Davis the Sex Starved Marriage. They both suggest that you Get a Life, which is code words for becoming a more integrated, masculine man, who is proud of himself and his accomplishments. Glover also talks about how many many are too codependent on their wives and need their approval, which is an absolute turn off to most women. 

Glover also points out that most nice guys are into covert contracts, when do do stupid things in their minds like say, "if I do the laundry, my wife will have sex with me." Unfortunately they haven't share this with their wife. They do more laundry, the wife thinks, "it is about time" and nothing changes. The Nice Guy then doubles down and tries harder by doing the laundry, the dishes, and vacuuming. She thinks, "Great he understands I work too hard." If she catches on to what he is doing she just laughs at him.

Davis also points out the art of the 180. This is where you change the dynamic in the marriage. I like to think of it as the Monty Python, "and now for something completely different" approach. Let's say your wife enjoys getting in arguments with your over the lack of sex. You can change your own behavior so you don't get angry and you don't argue with her. If you are good at this then she will soon learn that the method she had for "punching your hot button" no longer works. At this point she has to change the way she treats you. She gets to decide what she will do different. If you like the different approach, giver her positive feed back. If you don't like it try and different 180 until you get a positive result. When you get positive results, then you can fine tune with lesser 180's until you get a full course correction you like.

The third book was Chapman's 5 Love Languages. I learned my wife's love languages were Acts of Service and Quality Time, while mine were Touch and Words of Affirmation (Praise). When I wanted to tell my wife I loved her I would touch her or tell her how proud I was of her. She would tell me to stop pawing at her body to get in her pants and to stop trying to butter her up to get in her pants. That was an earth shattering revelation. All the time we had been fighting, she kept showing my her love for me by performing acts of service (hot homemade meals for dinner each night when I came home) and quality time by sitting around the dinner table talking. 

I started to communicate in her languages of love and she started to feel loved and cherished. I also worked hard on Getting a Life, which included loosing weight, getting in shape and taking up hobbies I had dropped shortly after we were married (long distance running-half marathons, mountain climbing, shooting sports, long distance bicycling-centuries or 100 mile rides). I became quite proud of my accomplishments as a 60+ year old man. I even took a first place for my age class in a major endurance run. I dress better. Her friends started to complement her on the hot husband she had.

At the same time I kept reading relationship books. Eventually she asked what was going on. I said that I was really hurting with the lack of sex and that we should start marriage counseling with a board certified sex therapist. She agreed.

The sex therapist provided us with all kinds of educational and exercises: Sensate focus exercises, Sinclair Institute better sex videos, readings from various books, Yes/No/Maybe list to cause us to talk about sexual acts or things we had never talked about, Ways of discussing difficult topics like sex, sex toys and role playing. The Sex Therapist was incredible had had a number of talk shows, and advice columns. 

One day she finally asked my wife, what she thought would happen if we never had sex again. My wife avoided answering the the ST would not allow that. Ultimately, my wife said she thought we might divorce. The ST praised my wife and said that in her experience in counseling hundreds of couples, my wife was correct we would likely divorce. Then came the deer in the headlights moment. The ST asked if I had ever thought about divorce. I said yes, I had looked up the divorce laws in our state and found out how long it would take between filing the papers and having the divorce finalized. I also said that I had promised myself that by my 62nd birthday, that I would be in a loving and sexual relationship with a woman. That I wanted that woman to be my wife, but if my wife couldn't, I would divorce her and find someone else who could give me what I needed. I was absolutely serious and I would do anything I could to save our marriage.

The ST recovered first and said that was a reasonable and fair approach and it gave my wife time to figure out what she wanted. The ST told my wife that she now had to decide whether she wanted to be divorced or not, but she had time to figure it out and make changes if she didn't.

Next the ST help me define what a loving sexual relationship looked like in front of my wife. The ST then asked if my wife and ever done those things with me. My wife said yes earlier in our marriage. The ST told her then that our problem was cured; my wife was physically capable of giving me a loving sexual relationship, if she wanted to. It was now up to my wife as to whether she wanted to be divorced or not and that she had a husband who wanted to rebuild their marriage.

My wife with more counseling, ultimately committed herself to rebuilding our marriage. That was over ten years ago. And yes we have sex about twice a week, and I feel deeply emotionally connected to my wife.

Good luck, your mileage may differ.


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## EW2022 (5 mo ago)

And - here we go with the rest of the story.
Wife became super-mom. My perception (and this is only my perception, not necessarily reality) was that her priority list was 1) work, 2-4) kids, 5) church stuff (she's quite active), 6) ailing father, 7) me. Sex - almost totally stopped. She was up later and later in the evenings, and she'd get up very early. I'm a light sleeper, and if I get sleep-deprived, I'm not fun to be around. We ended up in separate bedrooms just so we could exist peacefully. At this point, my medical problems started - hormones were so far out of whack that several doctors were totally confused, and nothing was working. Intimacy ground to a halt. 
Now things went really south. At work, I had an asshat of a boss, and work was no longer fun. I felt no support from wife (too busy with higher priorities). With no support network, I sank into a severe clinical depression. Severe. Not me saying "Gosh, I'm bummed." Clinical, honest-to-goodness 'why am I even here' depression. Close to the abyss. I got help, and pulled myself back - meanwhile, wife wasn't giving me support - my counselor said it's because a) she was busy running the household, b) she felt that I'd abandoned her emotionally, and c) she had no idea what was going on or how to help. 
Then the day I'll never forget - she'd occasionally come down to 'my' bedroom on a weekend for a little fun. One day she said that she doesn't like coming down here because all I want is intimacy. That was hurtful, because at that point, without medical help, I couldn't perform. So I wasn't initiating. It hurt so bad that I haven't initiated anything since.
My counselor helped me realize I had to take care of myself - so I decided I needed to feel better about myself. Exercise, a better diet, a few better shirts and ties for work - and my wife accused me of having an affair! Parish priest helped convince her that no, I wasn't (I understand why - red flags everywhere, but when proven wrong, she never apologized for the accusation.)
At work, she's a manager. Often, I feel like she treats me like her employees - she's the boss around the house and don't question anything she says or does. "I'm sorry" or "I made a mistake" are not in her vocabulary.
I've kept up counseling for myself. Wife - a few sessions, then stopped. She had to set up MC sessions because her schedule was more constrained than mine. She did a few, then stopped. We used the same counselor (I signed permission for our counselor to talk to wife about anything I discussed - that's how serious I am about trying to heal this relationship!) Per counselor, my love language is touch, followed closely by affirmation. Hers is acts of service, and she shows love by gifts. So those don't line up at all.
Right now, we're roommates and partners in the business of running our household. (Though I often feel treated as the junior partner.) I know we could be more. But I don't see signs that she's trying - her priority list certainly seems to not have changed.
Leaving - not an option. (Religion, for one. Second, I doubt I could physically satisfy a new partner.

Not sure if anyone can relate, has any similar experiences, has any advice, or anything like that. I just need to get this off my chest. IC can only help me; if wife won't schedule for MC, that's not going to help, either.


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## EW2022 (5 mo ago)

To clarify a couple of things - sex itself is far less important to me than physical touch. Cuddling as we go to sleep would put a smile on my face for a week. Second, my wife is very, very good at her job. Others in my office have commented that based on how I talk, she must be amazing. Third, I'm in a great office now and love my work, so I get affirmation there at least. Fourth, due to my hormones 'flipping' (I'm very low T, high E- and nothing has helped, even injections), my counselor said it's not surprising that I'm more intuitive and 'feeling' - that's a biochemical effect of E. Meanwhile my wife has (due to engineering job?) become Spock.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Op a very sad story all around. I feel sad for you not getting your needs met and I feel sad for your wife who is trying to be the be all and end all to everyone, it must be exhausting. Is she the main breadwinner for the family? Just wondered. Women's roles have evolved so much in the last 60 years plus but the basic human needs for men and women have not. Being a career women, mother, wife, daughter etc it is inevitable something has to give. I see in so many families women taking on the majority of household responsibilities, child rearing, working to earn money, the marriage suffers. Perhaps those who are happiest are those who do much less and are more available to their husbands, it sounds sexists for sure but the expectations on women nowadays is worse than it has ever been. Something ends up giving and it is either the marriage or the career. I will get brickbats for this but when a woman is stretched to the limit, sex is the last thing on her mind. Sad but true.


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## DoctorManhattan (Jan 22, 2019)

EW2022: Thank you for sharing. I agree with Young At Heart's approach.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I’d work on sleeping in the same room to start. 

My wife stays up very late sometimes however I am not a light sleeper at all. I sleep with the TV on loud because my ears ring from tinnitus. It took my wife a long time to get used to the TV being on like that but she did eventually.

I’d recommend an inverse approach for you. Try earplugs and an eye cover. Get a sleep number bed with a split mattress (or equivalent) so you won’t feel the mattress move when she gets in. I have one of these but mainly because she likes harder beds than I do.

Another suggestion which may help is lifting heavy weights. First this should make you more tired. It can also increase your testosterone production, but mainly in this case you want to become physically exhausted.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

EW2022 said:


> To clarify a couple of things - sex itself is far less important to me than physical touch. Cuddling as we go to sleep would put a smile on my face for a week. Second, my wife is very, very good at her job. Others in my office have commented that based on how I talk, she must be amazing. Third, I'm in a great office now and love my work, so I get affirmation there at least. Fourth, due to my hormones 'flipping' (I'm very low T, high E- and nothing has helped, even injections), my counselor said it's not surprising that I'm more intuitive and 'feeling' - that's a biochemical effect of E. Meanwhile my wife has (due to engineering job?) become Spock.


You need an AI to get the E back in line. I took letrozole, take it sparingly. I went from E being 10x what it should to single digit. I use T compounded cream. My T level is over 1200. 

I 2nd the books above. Your life was a rerun of mine. No More Mr Nice Guy (NMMNG)and Married Man Sex Life Primer(MMSLP) showed me I was going about it all wrong. Those books saved my marriage. I was about to hit eject with 2 kids under 7. Wife had become super mom and forgot hubby existed as anything other than a sexual nuisance to get pissy at. 

I practically worshiped the ground she walked on. When we met she was 27 and could have been a PB centerfold, I was a 24yr old big ole country boy. I felt I struck it rich, after kids....maybe she was fools gold. 

Women do not get hot over a guy they boss around. If she is a leader, you have to be a bigger leader. Woman does not get hot for a subordinate.

The NMMNG is a free download, read it like yesterday! Make the change! Get your T up and take an aromatase inhibitor(AI) to stop your yellow fat from converting your T into E. Lift heavy things and work on abs. Lean torso muscle burns the most calories. Cut out carbs as much as possible....protein and vegetables. 

I quit seeking intimacy with my wife and dropped 60 lbs and buffed up. The attitude change scared the **** out of her. I got some push back...what is wrong with you, you look sick,blah,blah,blah. 

Fact I was no longer whining about sex and intimacy, she knew there was issue but I was not talking. She thought I was already gone...out the door. I had one foot out and was about to hit the ground running and looking damn good to the ladies. It was her last change to get with my game or I was going to file divorce. 

Sex 3x month with nothing but *****ing and complaining about every thing I touched in between was not cutting it for me. I was touch and words of affirmation, so basically I was in the desert with no water or shade. 

I quit being a beta boy taking her **** and started throwing it right back when she tried to fling it. Is an alpha male, which is typically what makes the girls panties wet, going to tolerate BS from his woman? Hell no! Once I took my wife down off the pedestal and she was no longer the center of my universe, I made the change that was needed for her to see me as a man that is a leader. A woman does not feel safe with a guy she can push around......


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## EW2022 (5 mo ago)

Divinely Favored said:


> You need an AI to get the E back in line. I took letrozole, take it sparingly. I went from E being 10x what it should to single digit. I use T compounded cream. My T level is over 1200.
> 
> I was touch and words of affirmation, so basically I was in the desert with no water or shade.


Believe me, my GP and endocrinologist tried AI and even T shots. For over 10 years, we tried everything under the sun. No joy.

I'm the same - touch and words of affirmation. I don't think wife even recognizes those. Odd thing, though - in the last 2 years, she spent over 5+ months away from home (not all at once) helping her mom and ailing father. The difference to me in the household? Nada - unless I did some housework project and texted her a pic, which she got all excited about. I do projects around the house, as I should, but I'm not going down the path of acting like a trained circus monkey doing tricks hoping for some type of treat. (My counselor agrees with my sentiment on that.)

I'm married, but lonely, even when she's in the house. I learned from the time she was away that I could live perfectly fine by myself - though I'd prefer not to.


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## EW2022 (5 mo ago)

aine said:


> I feel sad for your wife who is trying to be the be all and end all to everyone, it must be exhausting. Is she the main breadwinner for the family?


No, we earn about the same. There IS a difference in our 'rank', though - I hate managing people; she loves it. So she got promoted to a higher 'rank' than me. Does that affect her respect for me? No idea. She takes after her dad - who was a type A+++ personality - I think he quit working 6 months after he was buried. Work is her top priority. She is often not home before 7 pm, and if she is, she's on her work computer for a couple of hours. She spends weekend time on her work computer.

I know what some of you are thinking - extended work hours are a red flag for an A. Possible? Yes. Probable? No, I can track her phone any time I want. She doesn't 'guard' it - I know the passcode and her computer logins, and I sometimes have to use her phone so I can see activity. No, not an A; just a work-a-holic.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

EW2022 said:


> Believe me, my GP and endocrinologist tried AI and even T shots. For over 10 years, we tried everything under the sun. No joy.
> 
> I'm the same - touch and words of affirmation. I don't think wife even recognizes those. Odd thing, though - in the last 2 years, she spent over 5+ months away from home (not all at once) helping her mom and ailing father. The difference to me in the household? Nada - unless I did some housework project and texted her a pic, which she got all excited about. I do projects around the house, as I should, but I'm not going down the path of acting like a trained circus monkey doing tricks hoping for some type of treat. (My counselor agrees with my sentiment on that.)
> 
> I'm married, but lonely, even when she's in the house. I learned from the time she was away that I could live perfectly fine by myself - though I'd prefer not to.


No change? That makes no sense. Were they doing them together? If you are injecting T-cyphenate at least 1cc x week, your T levels will rise, they have to, no way around it. I had to cut back as I was over 1400 taking .5 cc 2x week.

Go to a urologist. Something is off with them, maybe they are afraid of HRT and do not really know a whole lot about it. My GP will not prescribe it.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

EW2022 said:


> .....I'm the same -* touch and words of affirmation.* I don't think wife even recognizes those.
> 
> .........*I'm married, but lonely, even when she's in the house*. I learned from the time she was *away that I could live perfectly fine by myself - though I'd prefer not to.*





EW2022 said:


> No, we earn about the same. There IS a difference in our 'rank', though - I hate managing people; she loves it. So she got promoted to a higher 'rank' than me. Does that affect her respect for me? No idea. She takes after *her dad - who was a type A+++ personality* - I think he quit working 6 months after he was buried. Work is her top priority. She is often not home before 7 pm, and if she is, she's on her work computer for a couple of hours. She spends weekend time on her work computer.
> 
> I know what some of you are thinking - extended work hours are a red flag for an A. Possible? Yes. Probable? No, I can track her phone any time I want. She doesn't 'guard' it - I know the passcode and her computer logins, and I sometimes have to use her phone so I can see activity. *No, not an A; just a work-a-holic.*


A few thoughts to talk over with your counselor. First, finding touch and words of affirmation. For me, some of the ways I found touch when I was into my heavy exercise and training routine were with legitimate deep tissue massage. No shady inappropriate massage parlors, but ones that accepted checks and credit cards. Another interesting way I got touch was self massage with a foam roller and a step aerobics class. In the class the instructor in the stretching always had us hug ourselves when doing arm stretches. You might figure out ways to get the touch you need. In Chapman's book, the touch language does not involve sex.

I realize that she didn't prioritize joint marriage counseling and she didn't schedule herself to attend, but maybe it might be a good time to talk to her again about marriage counseling. If you do talk to the counselor about Sensate Focus exercises. Cornell University Senstate Focus primer
It would be another way for you to get the touch that you need. Sue Johnson's book Hold Me Tight is a good explanation you could try to get your wife to read that would explain how important touch is to all humans, in fact all mammals.

As to the affirmation, you sound like you get that at work. Also seek affirmations as part of your Get A Life activities. My wife was shocked when I got a first in age class in a long distance run and completed a 100 mile bike ride. She also viewed me much differently when I took up "more manly" sports (target shooting, mountain climbing) and achieved notice among my peers. Have you tried a sport that is "out of character" for what she thinks of you or her mental image of you? Look around and think about her image of you and something that would break that image. One of the things I did was in my training for different sports, I involved my children, who were older at the time. Even young children can be part of any training. If running get a running stroller if the kids are small. If bicycling get a bike infant trailer. If they are older just have them go on light work out days.

The above are ways you can try to get more of what you need to be happy as you "* I could live perfectly fine by myself."*

Now as to her dad being a workaholic, it is not surprising that she is also one. Talk to your counselor about that. Often people see parents as their role models for marriage. Her parents may not have shown her what a good marriage would look like. Talk to your counselor about that and if there is anything you can do to help show her what a loving relationship looks like. Maybe there are some movies the two of you can see, some books she can read, a theater show, etc. Again, what would probably help the most is to try to get her back into therapy.

The final suggestion to talk over with your counselor is to try to do something so dramatic that it will force a change in the dynamic of your marriage in the hope that it improves things. If you can be perfectly fine by yourself, but you prefer not to, why don't you tell your wife that. Then ask for a trial separation for say 6 continuous months. Move out, find an apartment and let her find out if she prefers to live apart or with you. You said she was gone for over 5 months although not continuously. If she is really as workaholic as you say, you probably are pretty important to her life and without you she would have to devote much more time to the house and its upkeep. If she wants you back, you can insist on marriage counseling. I suspect she will want you back, but it is a risk.

Good luck to you.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

EW2022 said:


> To clarify a couple of things - sex itself is far less important to me than physical touch...Fourth, due to my hormones 'flipping' (I'm very low T, high E- and nothing has helped, even injections), my counselor said it's not surprising that I'm more intuitive and 'feeling' - that's a biochemical effect of E. Meanwhile my wife has (due to engineering job?) become Spock.


What caused the hormone "flip"? I'm dealing with my hormones right now as well. Do you know what your leutenizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) levels are? Other hormones? Do you have physical damage to testicles or other glands producing the hormones in the loop?

LH and FSH tell your body to produce testosterone. SHBG is used to transport testosterone since it doesn't mix with water (blood) and is not willing to easily give it up. My SHBG is over the top and I'm wondering whether that prevents TRT from being successful.

How low is your testosterone? The endo and urologist are not able to tell me where the limit is, but if bio available testosterone is low enough we experience all the symptoms of menopause including over the top emotions, fatigue, lack of libido and performance issues, which would not be helping your situation.

I spent most of 2020 medically castrate and am still recovering two years after treatment.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Julie's Husband said:


> What caused the hormone "flip"? I'm dealing with my hormones right now as well. Do you know what your leutenizing hormone (LH), follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) levels are? Other hormones? Do you have physical damage to testicles or other glands producing the hormones in the loop?
> 
> LH and FSH tell your body to produce testosterone. SHBG is used to transport testosterone since it doesn't mix with water (blood) and is not willing to easily give it up. My SHBG is over the top and I'm wondering whether that prevents TRT from being successful.
> 
> ...


Yes SHBG ties up the T where it can't be used. Take 5000iu D3 2x day and pregnenolone 2x day to help correct that. 

My urologist wants my T levels around 1200. 

Here are ranges.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

Divinely Favored said:


> Yes SHBG ties up the T where it can't be used. Take 5000iu D3 2x day and pregnenolone 2x day to help correct that.


My urologist doesn't give a crap where any of these levels are. My SHBG is around 90 and last check the LH and FSH were over the top.

What is the dosage of pregnenolone? I understand it also promotes estrogen. Reason for the flip?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

My Dr said take 25 mg of fast acting. Do not get extended release. I took it 2x day for a week, then every AM. He had to start HRT due to low T at 34, I started at 37. He looks like a body builder now. Have to get T up and E down or working out does nothing. Before T injections I could lift like crazy and hardly any muscle gain or fat loss. Fat was turning T into E.

I read the pregnenalone and D3 is supposed to help break up the SHBG and free up the T for use.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> My Dr said take 25 mg of fast acting. Do not get extended release. I took it 2x day for a week, then every AM. He had to start HRT due to low T at 34, I started at 37. He looks like a body builder now. Have to get T up and E down or working out does nothing. Before T injections I could lift like crazy and hardly any muscle gain or fat loss. Fat was turning T into E.
> 
> I read the pregnenalone and D3 is supposed to help break up the SHBG and free up the T for use.


I now use compounded bioidentical Testosterone cream. No more needles. Works great!

Last lab was July 2022.

Total T 1402
Free T. 441
SHBG. 17

Dr. said if I feel good at that level fine. If not, drop down a click on the dispenser. I feel great for 50 and I can look at weights and gain muscle.lol


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

That free testosterone is pretty high.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> I think I understand. Both my wife and I are type A's. However, our problem started just shy of 40 years of marriage after our children left for successful lives on their own. I was 60 and my wife was almost a year younger. He told me she had no sexual desire for me and would never have sex with me again.
> 
> After a while and a lot of thinking and introspection, I made a promise to myself. I promised myself that I would be in a loving sexual relationship with a woman by a certain milestone birthday. Then after reading a lot of self-help relationship books, I figured out that if I didn't learn from my mistakes and change myself, that I would likely end up in another failed relationship after I divorce my wife. It was at this point that I decided I would read everything that I could about relationships and create a much better me that would be attractive to other women. Because I still loved my wife, I decided that I would try to save our marriage. If I could great, if not, well at least I tried and I would have perfected new techniques with my wife in trying to get a woman to fall in love with me.
> 
> ...


This is awesome.
Can I ask, why did the breakdown of sex happen?
Did you or your wife discover the "reason" why sex stopped? I know this is more than likely waaay more complex than you leaving the tolet seat up.

I applaud your efforts in correcting you situation.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Julie's Husband said:


> That free testosterone is pretty high.


Used to be lower before I started taking 10,000iu of D3 daily to help break up the SHBG. I have started cutting the PM T application to lower my # to closer to 1200.

Good side effect of D3 supplements is I rarely ever get sick. Can't remember last time I had cold or flu.

There is no flu season, there is a vitamin D deficiency season.


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## EW2022 (5 mo ago)

In the last ten years (tested at least quarterly, often monthly), the highest T has been is 210. The HIGHEST.
It usually averages around 50, but has been as low as 19. 
E - should be under 50 (for men); mine averages about 120. All other hormones are normal-ish.

That's what I mean by 'flipped'. Docs have tried everything imaginable, with no luck. I've given up - it was getting too expensive to keep getting tested and trying new combinations of stuff, some of which had unpleasant side effects.

(A story which would be amusing if it wasn't me - several years ago, I did a set of blood tests. The lab called my doc to get me to go back to get my bloodwork redone - there had been some mixup of samples. My T - 22. E - 150. They were convinced they had mixed up my sample with that of a female. Repeat test confirmed there was no mixup. Sad.)

Turns out to be not a problem. Wife told me she doesn't like sex, my hormones have destroyed my libido. It's not sex I miss - it's touch. Her coming up and hugging me from behind while I cook. Sitting beside me cuddling watching a movie. Things like that.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

So an unhappy sexless marriage yet you state you won’t end the marriage.

I’m not sure there is any advice to give since you stated firmly you aren’t changing anything significant.

why do you intend to stay while unhappy?


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## EW2022 (5 mo ago)

Beach123 said:


> So an unhappy sexless marriage yet you state you won’t end the marriage.
> 
> I’m not sure there is any advice to give since you stated firmly you aren’t changing anything significant.
> 
> why do you intend to stay while unhappy?


I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. Maybe because it's at least familiar and so, while emotionally painful, it's less risky than ending it and trying to take a risk of being brutally rejected by some women? In HS and college, I had 3 or 4 dates - total. I got rejected so many times I almost gave up. What was the point of putting myself through yet another painful rejection? I didn't try asking very often. Gun-shy, I guess. Lonely as hell, but most of the time, the pain of loneliness could be dulled somewhat by hobbies to the point it was less than the pain of rejection. So yeah, I got issues going WAY back. (For one, how much rejection would YOU feel if your mother once said that she and your dad didn't want a second son - me - but wanted a daughter instead so they'd have one boy and one girl and be done?)

I don't know what advice anyone can give. Maybe I'm hoping to hear someone's success story that has a nugget of wisdom that might work? Maybe I just need to vent? Maybe I need to see enough 'failures to rekindle the flame' that it gets through my thick skull that this is a Quihotian quest and I'm doing nothing but tilting at windmills. Maybe I'm a hopeless f'ing basket case that should just give up completely. I don't know. I do know that a lot of counseling hasn't given me any answers but has helped my counselor buy a new Mercedes! (that's a joke - sort of).


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Well I left a looong term marriage more than 15 years ago and never regretted a minute of it.

life is too short to stay while not being appreciated and being mistreated.

life is just too short.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

EW2022 said:


> Turns out to be not a problem. Wife told me she doesn't like sex, my hormones have destroyed my libido. It's not sex I miss - it's touch. Her coming up and hugging me from behind while I cook. Sitting beside me cuddling watching a movie. Things like that.


I agree about the touch. Having a caring lover can help a lot.

I spent most of 2020 castrate, NO libido. Total T <12 ng/dl. In other words too low to measure. I remained sexually active the entire time I was castrate with my wife's help. She is physically unable to have intercourse, but we had fun learning about how castrate men go about having sex. Did some pretty hot stuff.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

EW2022 said:


> In the last ten years (tested at least quarterly, often monthly), the highest T has been is 210. The HIGHEST.
> It usually averages around 50, but has been as low as 19.
> E - should be under 50 (for men); mine averages about 120. All other hormones are normal-ish.
> 
> ...


It makes no sense if they were giving you T injections, they either did not know what the hell they were doing or they were not giving you the right dosage. That can be the only explanation. They were not doing something right. Hell when I started HRT my level was at 223 and I was a zombie. I could not function. Get home from work if I did not fall asleep on way home, I crashed in recliner until bed time. My e was over 100. Started letrozole daily with 1ml of 200mg/ml Testosterone cyphanate weekly. E dropped to single digit, T went to 1250. If they are injecting the correct dose, your T has no choice but to go up. Me thinks they did not know their crap.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

snerg said:


> This is awesome.
> Can I ask, *why did the breakdown of sex happen?*
> Did you or your wife discover the "reason" why sex stopped? I know this is more than likely waaay more complex than you leaving the tolet seat up.
> 
> I applaud your efforts in correcting you situation.


I think it was a combination of (1) empty nest, (2) getting her doctorate at 60 and feeling she was superior, (3) one of our son's getting married and her being second fidel to his wife in his eyes, (4) her sexual inhibitions, (5) her body self image, (6) not believing old people had sex, (7) low libido versus my higher libido, (8) my having let myself go physically, (9) her contemplating retirement, when I wasn't ready to retire yet, and (10) her totally not understanding my needs (she once asked if I would really have divorced her over something a unimportant as sex....I told her sex was very important to me and yes I would have and intended to if she hadn't changed herself).

Thank you. I loved her very much, she was the mother of our children, and I was committed to our marriage until is was legally over.

Actually, upon reflection, I was a big part of the problem. I didn't understand her love languages, as she started to grow and change (doctorate, empty nest, realization oldest son was starting his own family, concern over retirement and what she would do) I didn't actively step forward and communicate with her about the changes, her fears, and how we can change our lives together. Also as she drifted away, I became more clingy and codependent. 

I was part of the problem. It was not until I had cured my part and made her feel loved and cherished that she was interested in being with me. I think she subconsciously was trying to create emotional distance between us so she could explore a new life on her own....but she liked the life she had and didn't want to give that up either.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

EW2022 said:


> I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. Maybe because it's at least familiar and so, while emotionally painful, it's less risky than ending it and trying to take a risk of being brutally rejected by some women? In HS and college, I had 3 or 4 dates - total. I got rejected so many times I almost gave up. What was the point of putting myself through yet another painful rejection? I didn't try asking very often. Gun-shy, I guess. Lonely as hell, but most of the time, the pain of loneliness could be dulled somewhat by hobbies to the point it was less than the pain of rejection. So yeah, I got issues going WAY back. (For one, how much rejection would YOU feel if your mother once said that she and your dad didn't want a second son - me - but wanted a daughter instead so they'd have one boy and one girl and be done?)
> 
> I don't know what advice anyone can give. Maybe I'm hoping to hear someone's success story that has a nugget of wisdom that might work? Maybe I just need to vent? Maybe I need to see enough 'failures to rekindle the flame' that it gets through my thick skull that this is a Quihotian quest and I'm doing nothing but tilting at windmills. Maybe I'm a hopeless f'ing basket case that should just give up completely. I don't know. I do know that a lot of counseling hasn't given me any answers but has helped my counselor buy a new Mercedes! (that's a joke - sort of).


Why are you here? What is your desired end state?

Are you just looking for a testicular cancer support group cry session? (Fight Club reference if you’re not familiar)
Do you just want us to validate your misery while you continue your pity party but do nothing to improve your situation?

Or do you actually want to take ownership of your situation and improve it?


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

Young at Heart said:


> A few thoughts to talk over with your counselor. First, finding touch and words of affirmation. For me, some of the ways I found touch when I was into my heavy exercise and training routine were with legitimate deep tissue massage. No shady inappropriate massage parlors, but ones that accepted checks and credit cards. Another interesting way I got touch was self massage with a foam roller and a step aerobics class. In the class the instructor in the stretching always had us hug ourselves when doing arm stretches. You might figure out ways to get the touch you need. In Chapman's book, the touch language does not involve sex.


Interesting. I have a ton of hangups and inhibitions. Some were giving me grief in dealing with cancer treatment emotions. Top of the list are inhibition against touching or being touched. I have aversion to being pampered. Many stories there, but bottom line is that I need to learn how to accept non sexual touch.

Like you, I turned to serious, non sexual full body Swedish massage. I decided it was time to desensitize and took advantage of temporarily having lower libido. 

As I told my massage therapist, Jacqueline, on the last visit, massage is something I would never have contemplated in the past, but I think I am becoming addicted to being pampered.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

So what you’ve really stated is that you intend to stay stuck… stuck being miserable from your own choices.
Dude, we can’t help you with that.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Julie's Husband said:


> .........Many stories there, but bottom line is that I need to learn how to accept non sexual touch.
> 
> Like you, I turned to serious, non sexual full body Swedish massage. I decided it was time to desensitize and took advantage of temporarily having lower libido.
> 
> As I told my massage therapist, Jacqueline, on the last visit, massage is something I would never have contemplated in the past, but I think I am becoming addicted to being pampered.


I am glad you have found massage helpful. 

Sue Johnson has a great book Hold Me Tight on how important touch is to people. 

In many cultures touching or the "laying on of hands" is a ritual healing method. Yes touch is that important.


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## EW2022 (5 mo ago)

First, I was hoping for something other than "Me Tarzan" red-pill chest-thumping harping about increasingly dominating the relationship. I was hoping for some tips or ideas of things people had successfully done to re-awaken romance and (sexual or not) physical affection after the kids moved away. Second - my doctors are competent - part of a very reputable (world-wide) clinic. Best guess - possibly an auto-immune-like response of my body which is destroying T, and I have some reaction to the best AIs, so I'm limited in what I can use without risk of anaphalaxis. In the obviously limited space to discuss this, I didn't expound on the reams of data from my physical records, and I didn't expect such strong doubts of the competence of my physicans.
Third, and possibly most important, I was hoping to hear from people who had decided to transition a low-affection marriage into being roommates - what are the problem areas? What are the pitfalls? What are the 'ground rules' that seemed to work? Or did people try, and find it was too stressful or awkward and ended up with a D?


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## DaringGreatly (7 mo ago)

Hi EW2022.

I saw your post and came out from lurkerville because your story is quite similar to mine. I think I'm your wife from another life LOL..
I'm new to posting and I'm not technical so don't know how to quote without all of The text appearing so I will just type.

You say your wife had you as her last priority beneath job, kids, church and you are last.
That after fertility treatment your wife became supermom and you were left till last. I'm pretty sure my husband would have similar complaints. 

We also had to endure fertility treatment and you are spot on, it kills the romance and passion.

Like your wife I'm an acts of service person. 

I did exactly what your wife did. I worked superhard at my job (hoping my husband would notice and be impressed), I became supermom (hoping that my husband would be proud of me), I juggled finances and took on more responsibilities than I probably should have, but instead of my husband thinking I was awesome and giving me love and appreciation and being proud of me he grew distant.

I suspect that like you he thought I was putting him last when all I ever wanted was to impress him and show him how 'all in' I was on our life together. He was never last in my eyes. Everything I was doing I was doing for him and us. 

Until I read your post. I could never understand why the harder I worked and struggled for my marriage and my family the colder my husband became.

This is our home together and our children we are raising and I wanted him to impressed by me but I suspect like in your wife's case it backfired spectacularly.

I might not be of much help to you but your post has certainly helped me and I will certainly be trying to show my husband more of the kind of intimacy you describe. Watching more movies together, spontaneous shows of affection... Do you have any other suggestions?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

DaringGreatly said:


> Hi EW2022.
> 
> I saw your post and came out from lurkerville because your story is quite similar to mine. I think I'm your wife from another life LOL..
> I'm new to posting and I'm not technical so don't know how to quote without all of The text appearing so I will just type.
> ...


It was like that with my marriage, almost came to divorce. I was feeling totally alone and unloved and last on her list. Finally broke and started communicating the good, bad and ugly truth.

Now my wife treats me like her king, I show her she is my queen. We are each other's priority. My core needs from her are physical intimacy and words of affirmation. I am a guy that if we are together, we are touching or holding hands. Basically, to feel loved I need regular physical intimacy and praise/adoration.(probably same with large portion of males)..knowing she is happy and trusts me and my lead/ability. Makes a man feel like the quarterback with his own personal cheer leader.


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## EW2022 (5 mo ago)

DaringGreatly said:


> I did exactly what your wife did. I worked superhard at my job (hoping my husband would notice and be impressed), I became supermom (hoping that my husband would be proud of me), I juggled finances and took on more responsibilities than I probably should have, but instead of my husband thinking I was awesome and giving me love and appreciation and being proud of me he grew distant.
> 
> I suspect that like you he thought I was putting him last when all I ever wanted was to impress him and show him how 'all in' I was on our life together. He was never last in my eyes. Everything I was doing I was doing for him and us.
> 
> ...


My counselor noted that there is a line of women who, when the last child left home, are surprised when their husband leaves as well - mostly because the wife's priority has been the children and the husband has given up hope of ever again being a priority. The key thing she told me is that it is important to remember "you were a couple before you became parents".

When I'm cooking, my wife used to come up behind me and hug me from behind - for no reason except that she knew I liked a little affectionate touch. I miss those types of things. Everyone has some type of affectionate (non-intimate) touch they like. Don't stop giving those. When the kids are older, make sure your bedtime aligns with that of your husband - even if the kids need homework help. (You'll have to carefully budget your time.) Ask him to help with 'kid chores' (which he can help with most things except breast-feeding!) and use the 'saved' time to make more time for him.

To me, it wasn't one big thing that halted. It was a lot of little things that just slowly faded away until I felt unimportant. My problem is I don't know how to 'recover and repair' our relationship that's badly damaged, but I do know what things I started to miss as we drifted apart that finally left me with the feeling that it was hopeless.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

EW2022 said:


> My problem is I don't know how to 'recover and repair' our relationship that's badly damaged, but I do know what things I started to miss as we drifted apart that finally left me with the feeling that it was hopeless.


If you want your situation to improve, you need to be willing to stand up and take control of your situation.
Stop being passive and start leading your wife in your marriage. Women respect strength and leadership, they despise weakness.
I’m not saying that you’ve been weak (maybe you have, maybe you haven’t) but you certainly seem to be passive and resigned to the fate of a sad passionless marriage.
You are in control of your situation and you can change it if you choose to.

The first thing you need to do is make a decision as to whether or not you will passively accept a sad, passionless, unfulfilling marriage or not.
You need to decide whether you’re just looking for martyrdom and validation for your misery, or if you actually want to improve your life. Because a crappy marriage is a crappy life.

You are responsible for being the leader in your marriage. That means setting the tone of your interactions and relationship, as well as being attractive and not being unattractive as a man and a husband.
Tell your wife what you expect out of your relationship together and then start behaving as such. Be playful, be flirtatious, tease her with a smile. Don’t expect her to respond right away, consider it practice.

Start doing things that make you more attractive, and stop doing things that make you unattractive.

You said you’re in decent shape, so doesn’t seem like there’s a major problem with that.
Be more flirty and charming and fun.
Show more confidence and leadership.

Recognize it you’re acting whiny, needy, etc. and stop doing it. Keep doing your hobbies and activities and create your own life..

Above all, this is for you, not for her.
If she asks what’s going on with you, just tell her I’m not willing to have a non-passionate, roommate marriage so we’re going to start changing that now.
I realized I haven’t been leading in this and I’ve decided to change that as well.

Start being affectionate and initiating physically but don’t act butthurt when she declines. Be consistent and don’t neglect any of this, give it 6 months. If she doesn’t start responding at that point, you need clearly tell her that you won’t settle for a platonic roommate marriage, and if that is all she is willing/ capable of, then it’s time to divorce. And you need to be serious, this can’t be a bluff.

You have to be willing to lose your marriage if you want any hope of reestablishing a romantic, sexual, fulfilling marriage.

She may come around, or she may not. But after 6 months of the above, you’ll be in a much better position either way.

That’s the only approach that’s likely to yield you any results. It may or may not bring your wife back around, but you’ll end up a hell of a lot better than where you are now either way.

But per your earlier post, I suspect this isn’t the guidance you’re looking for. Probably too chest thumping, Tarzan, red pillish for you.


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## EW2022 (5 mo ago)

DudeInProgress said:


> If you want your situation to improve, you need to be willing to stand up and take control of your situation.
> Stop being passive and start leading your wife in your marriage. Women respect strength and leadership, they despise weakness.
> I’m not saying that you’ve been weak (maybe you have, maybe you haven’t) but you certainly seem to be passive and resigned to the fate of a sad passionless marriage.
> You are in control of your situation and you can change it if you choose to.
> ...


I am very aware that this has sounded whiney. I know the standard 'take charge, risk losing your marriage to save it' red pill stuff. Believe me, I've tried that and more over the last many years. Nothing has changed, except she gets more and more focused on her job. Something upsets her, focus on job. Kid moves away, focus more on job. Even though I have zero confidence around women (very long story), I got more social and flirty. She focused more on job, while kids accused me of cheating. So I think I'm at the point of giving up. D? Why, if we can establish ourselves as only roommates? There are some financial benefits right now, and with my medical issues, there's no point of me putting myself in the market for other women - it'd be platonic, and then I'd have to worry about being cheated on. (Besides, I made a promise to my father on his death-bed many years ago to not repeat some mistakes. He may be gone, but I gave him my word.)

If she wants to control things, reward me with 'affection kibbles' if I do a project she wants done, screw that. I'm not a trained circus monkey. I do projects I want to do, work on MY hobbies when I want to, while she often teleworks late into the evenings. (There was a circumstance where she might have lost her job in the Covid mess - that was the most emotionally upset I've seen her in years! Told me a lot about her priorities!) If I'm doing a project (like putting in a garden with some tropical fruit trees, bananas, etc - which was a lot of fun) - she can help if she wants - with the understanding that I'm in charge of the project. (Got a different half-finished project in the back yard - she tried to take control, I said screw that and went to one of my hobbies instead, and she couldn't finish it without me.) So no, I don't let her push me around (it's a "choose your battles" strategy). But I'm emotionally exhausted and almost checked out; I'm tired of being the one trying to improve things. I think she's starting to realize that I'm emotionally detaching; whether it makes any difference or not is still a big unknown.

If I had to retire and she wanted to continue working, I'd be fine with moving myself to my ultimate retirement location and she could stay here at her job - I don't need much more space than a small house, or even a 'silver twinkie' (Airstream trailer), with a big, heated workshop/garage, and I'd be happy. At this point, I'm trying to find ways to get a 'least bad' solution that I can live with given the constraints - like how to be 'just roommates' and complete the emotional detachment.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

EW2022 said:


> I am very aware that this has sounded whiney. I know the standard 'take charge, risk losing your marriage to save it' red pill stuff. Believe me, I've tried that and more over the last many years. Nothing has changed, except she gets more and more focused on her job. Something upsets her, focus on job. Kid moves away, focus more on job. Even though I have zero confidence around women (very long story), I got more social and flirty. She focused more on job, while kids accused me of cheating. So I think I'm at the point of giving up. D? Why, if we can establish ourselves as only roommates? There are some financial benefits right now, and with my medical issues, there's no point of me putting myself in the market for other women - it'd be platonic, and then I'd have to worry about being cheated on. (Besides, I made a promise to my father on his death-bed many years ago to not repeat some mistakes. He may be gone, but I gave him my word.)
> 
> If she wants to control things, reward me with 'affection kibbles' if I do a project she wants done, screw that. I'm not a trained circus monkey. I do projects I want to do, work on MY hobbies when I want to, while she often teleworks late into the evenings. (There was a circumstance where she might have lost her job in the Covid mess - that was the most emotionally upset I've seen her in years! Told me a lot about her priorities!) If I'm doing a project (like putting in a garden with some tropical fruit trees, bananas, etc - which was a lot of fun) - she can help if she wants - with the understanding that I'm in charge of the project. (Got a different half-finished project in the back yard - she tried to take control, I said screw that and went to one of my hobbies instead, and she couldn't finish it without me.) So no, I don't let her push me around (it's a "choose your battles" strategy). But I'm emotionally exhausted and almost checked out; I'm tired of being the one trying to improve things. I think she's starting to realize that I'm emotionally detaching; whether it makes any difference or not is still a big unknown.
> 
> If I had to retire and she wanted to continue working, I'd be fine with moving myself to my ultimate retirement location and she could stay here at her job - I don't need much more space than a small house, or even a 'silver twinkie' (Airstream trailer), with a big, heated workshop/garage, and I'd be happy. At this point, I'm trying to find ways to get a 'least bad' solution that I can live with given the constraints - like how to be 'just roommates' and complete the emotional detachment.


If you really have been doing all these things, consistently, over the course of 6 to 12 months - and nothing has changed with your wife - then nothing is ever going to change with your wife. 
It’s time to divorce, there’s nothing more you can do. Other than trying to live with a sad, pathetic, sexless, passionless, loveless marriage.

At this point you know what you need to do (and it’s not finding ways to tolerate the intolerable), you just need to have enough strength, courage and self-respect to do it.


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