# Robin Williams and Suicide



## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

Hello,

Interesting conversation last night with my wife.

A fox news broadcaster (strangest looking human on earth) Sheppard Smith was talking about Robin Williams killing himself and said something about him being a coward. Felt pretty harsh to say, hours after the news broke. I mentioned this to my wife and I commented that it was a bit harsh and that I empathized with Robin Williams for being in that dark of a place. My wife sorta shrugged it and said its selfish and it is cowardly. She was pretty harsh about it(kinda put me off how she felt about it), while I just felt bad for the guy. Mind you, I'm the opposite of a bleeding heart liberal who feels bad for everything. I just feel bad for people who can't get out of thier own way.

Curious, what are your views on this? And are your views consistent with most people in tough spots (not feeling bad for homeless, or no sympathy for drug addicts etc)?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

depression illness can run so deep that the pain blinds the person into thinking there is no hope or future

I suppose the newsman thought Robin could "just snap out of it"


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

I am sympathetic to Robin Williams. I too went through a VERY dark time in 2013. It was so bad that I was 2 seconds away from just laying in my bed & giving up on everything. The only thing in this world that kept me going was my daughter. She is a toddler & needs me to take care of her. I know for a fact that I would never commit suicide, but I do believe silent suffering is real. I feel so bad for Robin Williams, he couldn't shake the darkness & saw no other way out. Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I am a very empathetic person by nature. However, nothing annoys me more than a person who is a perpetual victim.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

I've always had a hard time sympathizing/empathizing with people who give up whether it's giving up on marriage or giving up on life. While "snap out of it" is pretty trite advice, I am constantly struck by how people almost seem to prefer the comfort of failure to the risk of hope.

The conversations I've had with such people always seem to go something like this:

Them: "I'm unhappy."

Me: "Try this."

T: "Won't work."

M: "How do you know?"

T: "Nothing works."

M: "How about this?"

T: "I can't do that."

M: "Why not?"

T: "Not my style."

After a while you're tempted to hand them a rope.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

JustTired, 

I think I'm in the same camp as you. I've been in dark places, but my daughter's need for a father has snapped me out of it. I've been in such dark places, that without my daughter in my life, I wonder what the outcome would be.

That said, I'm with you about the victim. I'm a big fan of doing, rather than whining and remaining still.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

ladymisato said:


> I've always had a hard time sympathizing/empathizing with people who give up whether it's giving up on marriage or giving up on life. While "snap out of it" is pretty trite advice, I am constantly struck by how people almost seem to prefer the comfort of failure to the risk of hope.
> 
> The conversations I've had with such people always seem to go something like this:
> 
> ...


LOL. I used to try this with my wife. 

I now just offer a "i hear ya".


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

ladymisato said:


> I've always had a hard time sympathizing/empathizing with people who give up whether it's giving up on marriage or giving up on life. While "snap out of it" is pretty trite advice, I am constantly struck by how people almost seem to prefer the comfort of failure to the risk of hope.
> 
> The conversations I've had with such people always seem to go something like this:
> 
> ...


you fail to realize that it's actual brain chemistry that causes depression

would you say the same thing to a person with kidney disease

although progress has made over the years we are still al long way from more effective cures


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

ALMOST, 

I think the examples Ladymisato is giving are softer examples. hating job or feeling fat or feeling tired etc.. 

depression is a different animal.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

BostonBruins32 said:


> ALMOST,
> 
> I think the examples Ladymisato is giving are softer examples. hating job or feeling fat or feeling tired etc..
> 
> depression is a different animal.


it is and unfortunately many people fail to see that difference


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## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

EDIT: I can't post the image I want, because it contains BAD SWEARS and even the original link didn't work because it had a swear in it and the filter broke it.

I feel sad that he felt there was no other option, but also that ignorant fools like that reporter exist thinking that mental illness is somehow not as painful or distressing as physical ones, and that people can just 'get over it'. It makes you feel like you can't talk about how you feel and even afraid of going to seek help because of how people will react to you thinking you are (as they say in the UK) 'mental'. 

Here is the image I wanted to post, it contains the F-word once.

I regularly think about how pointless my life is and wonder about just getting it over with.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I suspect Robin was bipolar. It appears he never publicly said it.

Many bipolars are brilliant & his comedic genius with rapid fire dialogues appear to be manic. The depression lows of bipolar are well documented to be lower than unipolar depression (no mania). Suicide is a symptom when one is in a depressive state & is very common.

My Mother was bipolar & committed suicide during a depressive state at the age of 41 leaving behind 5 young children.

Unless one has experienced the black hole of depression (I have) there is no comprehension on how horrific it is. I didn't want to die but I did want the worst pain I had ever felt to end. Suicide did cross my mind but I never made a plan. If a suicidal person really wants do to the deed & succeed, they do it quietly & secretly so as not to be stopped planning each detail perfectly.

The good news is that there are effective treatments for mental illness. I am of the belief that medication is necessary & works. The right medication coc*tail snapped me out of my depression & I felt alive again. I am stable now & will never get off my meds.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think there's some tendency to imagine that Mr. Williams was depressed _right now_, or depressed _this one time_. The truth is that he'd been battling addictions, depression and mental illness his entire adult life. 

There was an interview on NPR yesterday with a journalist who'd known him for many, many years. The gist was that Mr. Williams, like many great talents, paid a high price for his genius. He was always teetering very close to the edge of insanity. The interviewee had always thought there was a decent chance that his life would end in suicide. If you've ever seen any of Robin Williams's stand-up, then you've seen how truly manic he was capable of being. Truly funny, yes, but also extremely scattered with a whole lot going on in his brain at any one time. And the lows that come with those types of highs can be extreme. People who are wired that way are at a higher risk for lots of unhappy outcomes. Failed relationships because they're just really tough to deal with all the time. Addiction because they self-medicate. Suicide because they're basically running 150 miles per hour, 24/7/365, with addiction issues, a history of failed relationships, and often deep clinical depression. I've known people like that, and it always seems that years of that ping-ponging around in their heads is extremely draining - to the point they just really want it to stop.

I think that it can be hard to extend empathy to people who make choices we ourselves would prefer to imagine we'd never make. It's easy to think we would never kill ourselves. But then, most of us don't deal with the type of illnesses that Mr. Williams had been battling - with varying degrees of success - for the last 40+ years. While I'm sad as someone who enjoyed his talents and heartbroken for his family and friends, I don't judge him harshly. I think he was probably struggling, damaged, and deeply tired of trying to hold it together and just hit his personal wall.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

It would be interesting to see if he was taking any meds. IMO Depression pills are WAY over persciribed to people in US AND around the world. Sure, some need it (no question) but you will never convince me it's a BILLIONS of $$$ industry. Also, know many people that were diagnosed by a doctor with VERY little testing/troubleshooting or trying to resolve it with other means. Pills should LAST RESORT. First it should be diet, physical activity.

I won't even get into the damage and domino effect these pills have on people's health. Many cases, they do more damage than good. 

First and foremost, I believe that anyone should be able to decide to end their life as they please. After all, life of unhappiness is not a life worth living. 

HOWEVER, I think suicide is EXTREMELY selfish thing to do. And I agree with OP's wife and new anchor.

We had # of suicides in our family (2 to be exact) and although I can relate to and understand what these people might have went thru, guess what.........I still think they were extremely selfish.

I've also seen what suicide does to entire families and damage it causes for DECADES to come....and effects of it. But that's something that speaks volumes of the people that allow such event to effect them to the extreme IMO. It's within their control.

The reason why I think it's selfish, is because people that take their life only hurt EVERYONE around them. 

Look, depression is part of EVERYONE's life. Life is a rollercoaster full of ups and downs. I know it gets difficult but one always have to have a hope of brighter future and *reevaluate their current situation.*

When times are rough, I constantly think about what's in bold above. This is important.

There BILLIONS of people on this planet that live in complete poverty and many have no food. Yet they go on, struggle and you would be surprised how many have happy/good life in the end.

I also like to think back to WW2 and the atrocities that people went thru during that time NOT too long ago. Think about all the people that were taken to those camps....many of them knew......and they STILL made the best of what little life they had (some anyways).

Fact that I didn't grow up in US and know what REALITY is like around the world helps as well. Let's face it, I'm RICH by my standards.

All of these things help me deal with depression.

And at the very least, I think about the people I would ruin and hurt if I was to take my life.

Thoughts of ANY suicide go away as fast as they appear. 

Our last suicide in our family had absolutely 0 effect on me......I just thought the person was selfish and messed up for TRYING to hurt so many loved ones. And thankfully no one in the family allowed to be effected by such extreme step.

Truth is, people will be effected by suicide as much as they want to be effected. It can be as little as NOTHING and as big as EVERYTHING and completely ruin people's lives (again, I've seen the 2nd in our family as well). 

Another advice I have for those that struggle or even for those that never dealt with depression.

*NEVER EVER make ANY big life decisions during times of great happiness or sadness.* Wait until things are back to normal and reevaluate/decide.

But I also realize that there are people that have extreme depression and it is extremely difficult as well...

NOTHING is easy in life though. Unfortunately.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I lost a relative to suicide. 
It was horrible. 
Depression is really awful. Really horrible. So is addiction.
Some people see no other way out.
I do not see them as cowards or victors, the people who choose this path. I just see them as people who are so bogged down with nasty feelings inside that they decide this is the best course for them because they see no other solution.

It's very sad.


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

I totally get where Robin was in his life. I am there most of the time and have been for years. Maybe I can put it in perspective a little...

I live in Chattanooga TN. There is a restaurant in Atlanta GA I like going to. (One hundred miles away) If a bicycle was my only mode of transportation, the anticipation of the restaurant experience would not be worth the effort it would take to get there. 

That’s how I view life. He might have looked at it the same way.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

One of the worst things about depression is that it’s an illness that can prevent its own treatment. People often say that someone who is depressed needs to reach out, call a friend, call their doctor and make an appointment. That’s all true but one can have depression so bad, they lay in bed unable to move or even reach for the phone just two feet away. It’s hard to wrap your mind around it if you’ve never experienced it. It’s not a fun place to be. I feel so sorry and sad for the loss of Robin Williams. As an aside, it’s usually the seemingly happiest people that are the most depressed. Owen Wilson, is another comedy actor attempted suicide a couple of years ago.

A friend of mine who was always full of laughter, jokes and the life of the party killed himself two years ago. Nobody would have guessed he was harbouring dark thoughts. When I was a kid, about thirteen when my mom died, I had to live in a group home as I was orphaned and was waiting for a foster home. One of the boys there tried to hang himself in his closet one day. I remember it clearly, he was happy, joking around, laughing and seemed to be in good spirits. Then I heard the screams for help of a staff member who had to hold him up so he wouldn’t asphyxiate from the rope he was hanging on. 

Myself, I have depression. Though save when my mom passed and during my separation don’t suffer from suicidal ideations. However, those two times I certainly did and the thinking is extremely pervasive. I remember fantasizing about where and how I was going to end my life last year. I never told anyone. Partially because I was serious about it, partially because I wasn’t. The pendulum of which only seemed to depend on the day or time of day.

While my kids did give me reason to go on and eventually even seek help (I did get meds from my doctor and admit to being depressed to her and my counselor but never admitted suicidal thoughts to either of them), I do think it’s scary how close I came. There were moments where I “rationalized” that my kids would eventually be okay. “I am okay having lost my own mother young.” (I thought as I contemplated my own suicide and failed to see the irony in my argument – and that her untimely death may have contributed to my life-long bout of depression). “They have their father and extended family and life will go on...” 

Having been there, I am glad I’m here. I don’t believe I will ever try to kill myself but having been close myself, definitely have compassion for those that have done so or tried to do so. Like me, I wish them the help that they need. I don’t think they need further insult as to be called selfish or cowardly.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

DoF said:


> First it should be diet, physical activity.


You of course are entitled to your opinion but it is very dangerous to suggest that a disease with suicide as a symptom can be managed by diet & physical activity.

Have you even been in the dark hole of depression with suicidal thoughts?

I have as noted previously. Prior to the onset of my deep depression, I ate very healthy (125 pounds) & did Jazzercize 5 times a week. I was VERY physically healthy however do to a genetic component predisposed to depression, my brain was NOT healthy, so I became very sick.

I resisted medication until I was near death at age 40 with 2 young children, a job, house & husband.

Finally I dragged my 95 lb. ass (I lost my appetite) to an amazing psychiatrist who prescribed meds to SAVE MY LIFE. It took a while to find the right combination but I finally got my life back. 

I have lived to watch my girls grow up, go to college, get married & I am now enjoying 2 grandbabies. I am stable, happy & love life. I did try to go off the meds about 5 yrs. ago & BAM - the depression came right back.

My brain needs the meds. & I have almost no side effects.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Miss Taken said:


> One of the worst things about depression is that it’s an illness that can prevent its own treatment.



just wanted to stress this part in a most excellent post


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Emerald said:


> *
> Unless one has experienced the black hole of depression (I have) there is no comprehension on how horrific it is*. I didn't want to die but I did want the worst pain I had ever felt to end. Suicide did cross my mind but I never made a plan. If a suicidal person really wants do to the deed & succeed, they do it quietly & secretly so as not to be stopped planning each detail perfectly.


:iagree:

Unless someone has actually experienced this for themselves there really is no way to comprehend where what state someone is in.
Unfortunately it leaves many people's view of suicide/mental illness rather flippant.
Comparing going through a tough time with mental illness is akin to comparing the common cold with Malaria, two very different things.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Emerald said:


> You of course are entitled to your opinion but it is very dangerous to suggest that a disease with suicide as a symptom can be managed by diet & physical activity.
> 
> Have you even been in the dark hole of depression with suicidal thoughts?
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Thank you for this rebuttal. I find that there are a lot of people on TAM who condemn the use of antidepressants/SSRI's and personally, I think it's potentially dangerous advice to give. Granted, some people are not clinically depressed but just sad, hurting or grieving or stressed because of their circumstances. Situational depression and clinical/chronic depression are different animals. Although I do think sometimes a low dose AD for situational depression is still necessary if someone is not coping well having exhausted other therapies.

I know that there are horror stories with certain medications. I myself can't take any hormonal birth control whatsoever. I get every side effect from break-through bleeding, prolonged periods, loss of libido, to weight gain, to hair growing where I don't want it, to mood-swings. I've tried different dosages/combinations of the pill, depo provera, the patch and the ring it doesn't matter at all. 

However, as for my AD medication, there is a good chance I wouldn't be here if I wasn't on it. Diet and exercise is great but it's also just another tool someone can use to help battle their depression but it's not a cure all. Medication is another tool. Like you, I have zero side effects from my depression med. Just an improved quality life for me and a better overall life for me, my kids and my spouse. 



Almostrecovered said:


> just wanted to stress this part in a most excellent post


Thank you!


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Years ago I sat with a lady who was clinically depressed. I tried to comfort her and she just held me for a while and then said "It hurts, doesn't it?" I didn't really get what she meant because I wasn't suffering from depression, but I just said "yes."

Many years later, my brother died at age 43 and I went into a terrible depression for months. It became so bad, it PHYSICALLY hurt. Then I remembered what that woman said to me many years before, and I understood exactly what she meant.

Sometimes we have to go through what others are suffering with before we truly understand. 

A research was conducted some years ago that interviewed people who had suffered debilitating illnesses both mental (like depression) and physical (like cancer) at different times. Much more often than not, the respondents said that going through mental illness was worse than anything physical.


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

BostonBruins32 said:


> JustTired,
> 
> I think I'm in the same camp as you. *I've been in dark places, but my daughter's need for a father has snapped me out of it. I've been in such dark places, that without my daughter in my life, I wonder what the outcome would be.*
> 
> That said, I'm with you about the victim. I'm a big fan of doing, rather than whining and remaining still.


You get it. I look back & don't even want to think about what if my daughter wasn't in my life at that time. She literally was my saving grace.

Thankfully, I am in a much better state mentally & emotionally.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

This is hard. Some people (thankfully) will never know what it's like. 

I ended up in a Mental institution for a while after attempting suicide. They don't know how I survived. I was 15. I wanted to end my life at 15. My mother was abusive and an alcoholic. I didn't even remember my dad at the time because he had not been around at all. I felt so alone and lost. We were so poor that we lived in a house with a bad infestation of roaches and we would usually eat canned food like corn or beans. We received food stamps but my mother traded a lot of them for cash so she could buy her rum. 

The night I decided to overdose, I was sitting on the sofa watching a movie. My mother walked down the hall and into the kitchen. She usually did this to refill her glass. She came into the living room after a few seconds and threw her glass at me. It hit my elbow when I put my arm up to block it. It shattered everywhere. She started screaming at me because the fridge ice maker tab had been left on water instead of ice. So, she got some water in her glass when she first put it under there. That is what set her off. She ordered me to pick up the glass. I did. I went to my room immediately after, but she followed. She wasn't done. She slapped me in the face a few times because I had a look she didn't like and called me a few choice names. This stuff happened almost every single night. 

When you're 15, that is damaging. You think something is wrong with you and that no one loves you. 

So, I overdosed to end it. Immediately after swallowing the last pill, I started to cry so hard. I prayed and prayed that I wouldn't die. I wanted to live, I wanted to know what it felt like to be loved. I wanted to find that. 

2 days later, I woke up in the mental hospital. I stayed there for 2.5 months. The day I was released, I had to attend a funeral for my mother's boyfriend's daughter. She died in a car accident and was 4 months pregnant. That was horrific. 

I am 30 now. Suicide had never crossed my mind again since that day. I have been down...a lot since then. But I will never attempt to take my own life again. I will serve a better purpose. 


This is long, sorry. It just hits home when someone does this because they really have to be feeling so lost and alone. You feel so helpless and you don't see how anything could ever get better. I do feel so bad for him.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Emerald said:


> You of course are entitled to your opinion but it is very dangerous to suggest that a disease with suicide as a symptom can be managed by diet & physical activity.
> 
> Have you even been in the dark hole of depression with suicidal thoughts?
> 
> ...


Can't disagree with anything you said and it sounds like you need/benefited from the meds.

I still don't think the amounts of prescription given out to people by doctors is anywhere CLOSE to what is should be.

Just me though.

Take a look at what the pharma corps did to Japan with Depression pills......


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Miss Taken said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Thank you for this rebuttal. I find that there are a lot of people on TAM who condemn the use of antidepressants/SSRI's and personally, I think it's potentially dangerous advice to give. Granted, some people are not clinically depressed but just sad, hurting or grieving or stressed because of their circumstances. Situational depression and clinical/chronic depression are different animals. Although I do think sometimes a low dose AD for situational depression is still necessary if someone is not coping well having exhausted other therapies.
> 
> ...


Really great to hear!!!


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

DoF said:


> We had # of suicides in our family (2 to be exact) and although I can relate to and understand what these people might have went thru, guess what.........I still think they were extremely selfish.
> 
> I've also seen what suicide does to entire families and damage it causes for DECADES to come....and effects of it. But that's something that speaks volumes of the people that allow such event to effect them to the extreme IMO. *It's within their control.*


You have absolutely no clue; no idea what you're talking about.

You cannot relate, and you do not understand at all.


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## BaxJanson (Apr 4, 2013)

I've been hospitalized after an attempt on my own life. that being said, I agree with Mr. Smith's statement.

Depression is a horrible monster pitting yourself against yourself. I know how it feels to sit there, terrified to move, certain that if you do, it will be only to grab a knife. It CAN only be. Your only options are to either a) kill yourself, or b) wait just a little bit longer before you kill yourself. And continue enduring the agony that is life until you do.

But that being said, even in the darkest pit, one still has that option. To lay down and die in the face of an unstoppable foe - it may be sensible, but it is still cowardly. 

The truth is, that unstoppable foe is still merely a shadow. A lie. As real and as terrifying as it seems - and those are valid feelings in response to it - it will pass. It can be endured. Even when you're certain you can't do it, you can. The thought 'I can't do it anymore' is the lie. It may be hell, it may be scary, it may involve throwing away everything you've ever worked for and exposing yourself to the world as a miserable human being, it may be agony - but it is possible.


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

Sucide is something I have wanted for a long time. I have tried many times over the past 20 years. Three times in the last 17 months. Most recent in June.

I know, someday, I will get it right. The only way I hang on is to tell myself, "I don't have to do it today. I will re-evaluate again tomorrow"


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

lenzi said:


> You have absolutely no clue; no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> You cannot relate, and you do not understand at all.


I was referring to VICTIM'S family, not the person doing suicide.

I can relate because I've been in their shoes!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Rowan said:


> I think there's some tendency to imagine that Mr. Williams was depressed _right now_, or depressed _this one time_. The truth is that he'd been battling addictions, depression and mental illness his entire adult life.
> 
> There was an interview on NPR yesterday with a journalist who'd known him for many, many years. The gist was that Mr. Williams, like many great talents, paid a high price for his genius. He was always teetering very close to the edge of insanity. The interviewee had always thought there was a decent chance that his life would end in suicide. If you've ever seen any of Robin Williams's stand-up, then you've seen how truly manic he was capable of being. Truly funny, yes, but also extremely scattered with a whole lot going on in his brain at any one time. And the lows that come with those types of highs can be extreme. People who are wired that way are at a higher risk for lots of unhappy outcomes. Failed relationships because they're just really tough to deal with all the time. Addiction because they self-medicate. Suicide because they're basically running 150 miles per hour, 24/7/365, with addiction issues, a history of failed relationships, and often deep clinical depression. I've known people like that, and it always seems that years of that ping-ponging around in their heads is extremely draining - to the point they just really want it to stop.
> 
> I think that it can be hard to extend empathy to people who make choices we ourselves would prefer to imagine we'd never make. It's easy to think we would never kill ourselves. But then, most of us don't deal with the type of illnesses that Mr. Williams had been battling - with varying degrees of success - for the last 40+ years. While I'm sad as someone who enjoyed his talents and heartbroken for his family and friends, I don't judge him harshly. I think he was probably struggling, damaged, and deeply tired of trying to hold it together and just hit his personal wall.


 What an excellent post/ summary to explain this..

I have not even turned the news on to hear any commentary on his death as yet.. . your post sheds much light for me... I only feel sadness when someone commits suicide, I do not feel they are a coward..those comments are callous to me. 

It's an act of pure desperation.. to feel there is no hope..and you just want it to end.. I've always heard it said that comedians struggle with more depression over anyone..... I never really understood this..

Yrs ago, we had 2 old brothers who lived across the yard...in their late 70's I'd say... both never married, one died.. I used to bring food over to the surviving brother, felt really bad, he had no one, we'd talk sitting in his kitchen... I remember him asking me one day "Why is God allowing me to live so long?" - I got that he didn't want to go to a nursing home.. not long after, he shot himself in the basement shower stall.. 

Tragic.. he wasn't mentally ill , he was just done living and didn't want to go to a nursing home.. Life is very sad for some.. I don't have the answers.. Outside of mental illness, I can still understand why some might want to end it.. does that make me crazy? I also own the book "Final exit" and don't think Jack Kovorkian was Evil..I also have compassion on some Mercy Killings like the Carol Carr story .... and if I was Terri Schiavo... I'd want to strangle my parents for keeping me alive like that..

I can't say I have ever been depressed...I'm more the type when things are going wrong... I just Bi*ch about it, find someone to listen to all my woes... this calms me down.. and you just hang on till things get better.. always hope..

Though I think finding out I (or a loved one) had cancer or some debilitating disease / quadriplegic or something like that.. could send me there...but I think that's pretty normal...

The opening post asked about the Homeless, things like that.. I do tend to think many of the situations we see people IN - far too often came from bad choices -that grew out of control.. the sad fact is ...when you enter mental illness in some of those, it's almost inevitable.. it's a huge problem for society as a whole.. I sure don't have the answers.. I don't think it would be easy to be married to someone with these problems either.. they have to be very sacrificial in their loving..


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

DoF said:


> I was referring to VICTIM'S family, not the person doing suicide.
> 
> I can relate because I've been in their shoes!


Sorry- I thought when you said they were being selfish and it was within their control that you were talking about the person committing suicide but you were actually referring to the victim's _family_ as being selfish and it being within their control.



DoF said:


> although I can relate to and understand what these people might have went thru, guess what.........I still think they were extremely selfish... But that's something that speaks volumes of the people that allow such event to effect them to the extreme IMO. *It's within their control.*


I don't understand why the victim's family is selfish and how they are expected to be in control of another person's actions?


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

lenzi said:


> I don't understand why the victim's family is selfish and how they are expected to be in control of another person's actions?


I think DOF was talking about the amount of damage and effect a suicide has on the family members is within their control rather than the person who committed suicide.





DoF said:


> I was referring to VICTIM'S family, not the person doing suicide.
> 
> I can relate because I've been in their shoes!


You may be able to relate to a extent but you haven't been in someone Else's shoes.


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## Daisy Etta (Aug 13, 2014)

I am sorry to say that my first thought upon hearing the news was, "maybe he found out his wife was cheating on him". 

There is nothing about his public info which has led me to believe this could be true; in fact I'm not really sure who his current wife even is. The fact that this was my first thought is completely due to the fact that since I found out my husband cheated, I can completely relate to thinking "why even bother with life any more?".

I write this only to illustrate that I understand people can be at a point where it doesn't seem worth it at all. I agree with those here who find the "he was selfish" and "he was weak" comments to be offensive and ignorant.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

I like the old saying that "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem". 

I understand mental health issues and I'm inclined to agree with DOF in that prescription Meds and anti-Depressants do just as much harm as good in these cases.

Honestly, I view it as selfish behavior because I don't believe anything is out of an individual's complete control, save a disease.

Mental health issues and addiction kind of fall into the same category to me. They are treatable if the patient is willing.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Mostlycontent said:


> Mental health issues and addiction kind of fall into the same category to me. They are treatable if the patient is willing.


One of the "positive" things about Robin Williams untimely departure is that it brings attention to the ignorance that is so rampant among the population of our planet.

Not that the ignorance is going to suddenly evaporate, as the above quoted post clearly shows, but at least we can see it, and we can shake our heads and realize that we cannot expect everyone to understand.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

Mostlycontent said:


> Honestly, I view it as selfish behavior because I don't believe anything is out of an individual's complete control, save a disease.


It *IS* a disease in many of these cases. It *IS* out of their control in many cases. There is something wrong in their brains organically speaking. 

People don't understand that because many of these people are high functioning and appear to be well. 

Also, people who have experienced mild depression assume that it is the same as clinical depression. Not at all similar. One is malaise. The other is unrelenting despair and pain. 

It's strange that people understand the diagnosis of post-partum depression or psychosis but not clinical depression. Maybe because they understand that hormone levels are going wild after giving birth? Why is it hard to understand that brain chemicals can go out of whack for other reasons out of one's control?

Check out these quotes from William Styron, author of Sophie's Choice, who battled and survived clinical depression. They give a pretty frightening and vivid description. 

http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1258333-darkness-visible


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Emerald said:


> I suspect Robin was bipolar. It appears he never publicly said it.
> 
> Many bipolars are brilliant & his comedic genius with rapid fire dialogues appear to be manic. The depression lows of bipolar are well documented to be lower than unipolar depression (no mania). Suicide is a symptom when one is in a depressive state & is very common.
> 
> ...


I think you pegged it. 

I think many, if not most, of the game changers throughout history were tormented souls who probably suffered depression and mood disorders. Look at Mozart. He was definitely bi-polar. When a brain is stuffed with that much creativity and genius, some other parts of the brain has to go without. I think that's why he drank so much. He was self medicating. 

Williams was a game changer. He took standup comedy to the next level. He was the best improvisational comedian in history...probably the best that will ever be. And he paid the price for that genius by having a brain that focused on that one talent at the expense of it's other parts. 

Just my layman's view on it.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Also, people who have experienced mild depression assume that it is the same as clinical depression. Not at all similar. One is malaise. The other is unrelenting despair and pain.
> 
> 
> Darkness Visible Quotes by William Styron


Having suffered from both mild and clinical depression, I agree absolutely.

Having been suicidal when younger, I have nothing but sympathy for RW. I know what it is like - and it is hell on earth.

People who take their own lives because of clinical depression are simply not in their right minds (I was not).

Thank God, my uncle and doctor both told me it would pass and I believed them. And they were right.


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## Galt (Dec 30, 2011)

See my new thread, "Did Modern Divorce Law Kill Robin Williams?" in the Politics and Religion forum here!


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

"50-75% of people who attempt suicide will tell someone about their intention." So stop saying that people who commit suicide never talk about it. It's a myth that stems from ignorance.

There's Nothing Selfish About Suicide | Katie Hurley


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Mostlycontent said:


> I like the old saying that "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem".


Invalidating and alienating - in other words, unhelpful at best and harmful or provocative at worst.

How does anyone know how "temporary" anyone else's problems are? Or what they deal with? Or that it's not worth dying to get away from? No one else has the right to decide what someone else should endure (or what the state of their problems are) except for that person.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Almostrecovered said:


> you fail to realize that it's actual brain chemistry that causes depression
> 
> would you say the same thing to a person with kidney disease
> 
> although progress has made over the years we are still al long way from more effective cures


This may sound very harsh, it is not meant that way. Most people who are obese are obese because of lifestyle. There is a a lot suggest a similar thing with depression. However, having visited some places in the USA, I am amazed that more people are not obese as lifestyle not something people have much say in. 

I have seen my brother struggle hard with mental illness and he really struggles. I have seen people be lazy and call it depression. Having seen the contrast with the harsh struggles my brother goes through, I find it badly misplaced.

It will not be easy for everyone.

The other thing I have come to disapprove of is the saying about most people only feel sad whereas I feel depressed. It is dangerous to assume you know what others feel.


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## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

My fish are dead, or: "I don't necessarily want to kill myself, I just want to become dead somehow": Allie Brosh on being depressed and how non-depressed people react.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Someone with a deep enough depression to commit suicide, will not be able to force themselves to get up and do something about it. They will not have the capacity to believe that, anything, will help at all.

Folks can suggest they do this or that. In the moment, with that engaging person there to support and encourage, the depressed might agree and even smile. 

When the depressed person is alone, they will find they do not have the courage or determination to continue to think positively, as they did during the conversation while under the encouraging guidance.

They don't believe anything will help. They believe they've honestly tried everything they can do and nothing has been effective. The physical activity works while it's being performed and for a short period of time(like an hour or two after). 

Then, one little comment, or one thing doesn't go their way. I don't mean anything abnormal. It can be something so innocuous to a person who does not have truly severe depression that they seem like a complainer. 

However, to the truly deeply depressed, that one little thing was one more thing added to the huge pile that has never gone away. 

You see, part of it is the fact that the severely depressed have a hard time letting go of what happened before and looking at each event as one thing unrelated to the others. I imagine a person could disconnect them, but they must work on seeing each event for it's own independence. That's tough to do because it forces the depressed to dwell on the bad experience. It completes a circle of sadness, frustration and longing by attempting to solve the problem. 

The cycle is tough to break.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Indeed, it is tough. People are born with different dispositions and what is overly overcome for some will be difficult for others. However, no-one knows what others are going through and when people claim they are depressed and they know others are just fed-up, I cringe a little.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Mr The Other said:


> This may sound very harsh, it is not meant that way. Most people who are obese are obese because of lifestyle. There is a a lot suggest a similar thing with depression. However, having visited some places in the USA, I am amazed that more people are not obese as lifestyle not something people have much say in.
> 
> I was down, my wife got a bit down. I altered my lifestyle, whereas she described how her depression was chemical so while it was up to me to get out of my depression, there was nothing she could do about hers. Just as someone naturally inclined towards obesity should avoid donuts more, so someone naturally inclined towards depression should avoid a bad lifestyle more. Her Mum had some history and found exercise helped. My wife went for sitting on the sofa and playing on the internet. It did not work well. I went for yoga and meditiation, it helped hugely.
> 
> ...


so I'm bipolar because of my lifestyle and my refusals to change it?

glad you're not my doctor or shrink


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

schizophrenics hear things because of their lifestyle?

the brain is a complicated organ, some conditions stem from outside forces (like child abuse), some conditions simply stem from genetics and imbalanced chemistry

we aren't talking about the run of the mill feeling down kind of feeling that everyone gets at least once a week or more we are talking about a crippling and debilitating disorder


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Someone with a deep enough depression to commit suicide, will not be able to force themselves to get up and do something about it. They will not have the capacity to believe that, anything, will help at all.


:iagree:


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## Finder (Aug 12, 2014)

BostonBruins32 said:


> ALMOST,
> 
> I think the examples Ladymisato is giving are softer examples. hating job or feeling fat or feeling tired etc..
> 
> depression is a different animal.


But a lot of times depression is diagnosed with very little evidence and people just believe it blindly. 

Taking steps to improve your situation makes a big difference but some people just decide that it will never get better while others break out of it with some work. I definitely believe that there many ways to feel better without medication.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

All living organisms are wired for the drive to survive at all costs. Self preservation is the driving instinct to eat, to sleep and even in a round about way to procreate. *We are all hard wired to survive.*

So when something goes wrong and we start thinking death is the better alternative there is clearly a major malfunction in brain chemistry. When the pain of depression is so bad you come to believe that death is a welcome alternative there is something profoundly wrong happening.

Not all depressed people are suicidal. Not all suicides are the result of a long and drawn out depression. When feeling "down" morphs into feeling like death is the best way out having someone suggest therapy or practicing better lifestyle habits, it's like having a heart attack and having someone toss you a baby aspirin and suggesting a brisk walk.

Bipolar people are at a greater risk for suicide, as are teenagers, because of their impulsive nature. This is not to suggest they simply get an idea one second and then impulsively go do it. But to actually take steps to end your own life is generally not a well thought out idea.

Which is why the "wait a minute, give it some time and it will get better" campaign for suicide prevention is so powerful.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Anyone who truly wants insight into depression needs to look at this.

Hyperbole and a Half: Depression Part Two


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

For me, it was twenty minutes. After twenty, I felt better. After forty minutes, I was capable of some...more normal thinking. I do believe there is a short period where all is lost if we don't just ride it out, till that most horrible part passes. 

I do think suicide takes a lot of thinking and planning. I think it takes reason and what looks to the depressed as logical as what Mr. Spock would conclude.

I think it takes quite a bit of courage, too, and I know that's extremely controversial. You will only understand that remark if you have been close to it. 

It takes all the strength you have to do anything during that short period of time. It takes all the courage you can muster. It takes confidence you will complete the job and not end up a vegetable on a machine. It takes will to end it. It takes confidence that those who know you will not be too adversely affected, but will understand. It takes...

That's enough for now.


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

Pink, for the most part I agree with what you said above. In my case though, I have spent months planning and hording pills for the purpose of self elimination. Definitelt not an impulsive situation.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

dormant said:


> I have spent months planning and hording pills for the purpose of self elimination. Definitelt not an impulsive situation.


I guess you didn't share this with your therapist.


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

lenzi said:


> I guess you didn't share this with your therapist.


I told her about it after the fact.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I admit in the past I've been rather harsh about mental illness in general. 

I'm so hardwired to be positive and I've never experienced depression. Even when I left the ex, I was worried, nervous and saddened but not depressed. I, too, thought people should just snap out of it. I watched a friend have an anxiety attack and thought OMG what a freaking wuss - get it together. I just cannot comprehend it. I'm too logical. So what set her off made me think "what's the worst that could happen in this situation?" and it was certainly nothing to panic over so I just didn't get it. 

HOWEVER - I still don't get it but I know it exists whereas before I thought they were just being dramatic. I have listened to a friend with severe clinical depression and to the friend who had the panic attack. And I know they were being truthful about their feelings and experiences. By listening and asking questions I did come to realize that it isn't logical and it's not a choice. I gained a lot of empathy. 

I think for a while I was influenced to a degree by my ex who referred to anyone struggling with things of this nature as "weak units". And I did see them as weak because I just saw these things as something one just powers on through. After gathering more info I understood. 

A person doesn't choose this - they experience it. No amount of logic can help during those moments but some people can learn some coping skills and some medications can help. I can see a huge difference in my depressed friend when she is around people - it really helps her but getting up the energy to go out can be a huge struggle for her. 

Just like noone chooses to be gay, noone chooses to be bipolar or clinically depressed.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I admit in the past I've been rather harsh about mental illness in general.
> 
> I'm so hardwired to be positive and I've never experienced depression. Even when I left the ex, I was worried, nervous and saddened but not depressed. I, too, thought people should just snap out of it. I watched a friend have an anxiety attack and thought OMG what a freaking wuss - get it together. I just cannot comprehend it. I'm too logical. So what set her off made me think "what's the worst that could happen in this situation?" and it was certainly nothing to panic over so I just didn't get it.
> 
> ...


I think the biggest issue with depression pills is that although some people really need it, there is MILLIONS of people that look for an "easy answer" when they get depressed, which happens to EVERYONE in time. So doctors just hand them out left and right and people continue using it long term.

Personally, I think pills should be reserved for extreme/bad cases, not for everyone and their mother.

I do think more people need to accept depression as part of life and deal with it, and doctors should reserve the pills for extreme/bad cases ONLY.

But obviously that doesn't make doctor/pharma any money so they give it to everyone and their mother.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

same can be said for antibiotics and that is now creating superbugs 

the health industry is far from perfect but still leaps and bounds ahead of the majority of alternative treatments and downright quackery


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Almostrecovered said:


> so I'm bipolar because of my lifestyle and my refusals to change it?
> 
> glad you're not my doctor or shrink


No, not at all. I reread my post and it was terribly written, so I will edit it it.

I have seen people have no responsibility for their life and become extremely down. They become unhappy, but take no responsibility and it gets worse. Most of us are lucky enough that we can take control of our mental health. Others, my brother is one, cannot but take full responsibility for what they can control. 

However, there are also people who make themselves ill through lifestyle and demean the term.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Mr The Other said:


> No, not at all. I reread my post and it was terribly written, so I will edit it it.
> 
> I have seen people have no responsibility for their life and become extremely down. They become unhappy, but take no responsibility and it gets worse. Most of us are lucky enough that we can take control of our mental health. Others, my brother is one, cannot but take full responsibility for what they can control.
> 
> However, there are also people who make themselves ill through lifestyle and demean the term.



well I suppose some of that is indeed correct but it becomes a chicken or egg debate to some extent


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

dormant said:


> I told her about it after the fact.


After the fact you told your therapist that you had been planning your death. 

Now think about this for a minute.

Usually, when people are faced with difficult and complicated life altering decisions they think about it from as many different sides as they can, right? 

Should I quit this job? Should I marry this person? Should I buy this house? These are major decisions. So why then, the decision to end your life, do we not seek out expert advice or talk it out with others? 

The depression that leads to suicidal thoughts prevents us from thinking clearly. Maybe on some level we know we're not thinking clearly and that might be why so many suicide attempts are a surprise and shock to those closest to us? The depressed person isn't thinking clearly and they're not thinking clearly because they are depressed.

On some level you must have had enough self preservation instinct left, and thank goodness for that! Planning an exit by hoarding pills does take some forethought, but it also takes time and the more time you gave yourself the more chances you gave yourself to feel better. 

I am reminded of the really freaky movie by M Knight Shamalan...can't remember the name. Some toxin in released into the air by trees and it causes the self preservation instinct to reverse and the people exposed to the toxin immediately begin to kill themselves by whatever means immediately available. Instead if the drive to survive, everyone had a burning need to die.

At 2nt said above, the more time you can give yourself the more your chances of feeling better. And it does get better!


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Almostrecovered said:


> well I suppose some of that is indeed correct but it becomes a chicken or egg debate to some extent


Indeed. Most people with mental illness have had no influence. Some have, but someone who gets lung cancer from smoking or diabetes from their lifestyle is still genuinely suffering. 

There are also people who are determined that others are not really depressed as they are really depressed and others do not matter. It makes it harder for people who are depressed.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I feel sorry for people who are ignorant about mental illness. I don't know specifically what mental battles Robin William's suffered from, cowardly is not what comes to mind. 

I had a cousin who took his life and my oldest son has a pretty severe mental disorder. I will reiterate, I feel sorry for those ignorant of what some people and some families have to endure for a lifetime... There is no cure in most cases, this is a lifetime struggle.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

*Re: Re: Robin Williams and Suicide*



drerio said:


> I feel sorry for people who are ignorant about mental illness. I don't know specifically what mental battles Robin William's suffered from, cowardly is not what comes to mind.
> 
> I had a cousin who took his life and my oldest son has a pretty severe mental disorder. I will reiterate, I feel sorry for those ignorant of what some people and some families have to endure for a lifetime... There is no cure in most cases, this is a lifetime struggle.


Agreed. 

It always shocks me when people say suicide is selfish. As if the ailing person should be forced to battle it out so as not to hurt those around them. If you want to die, you should be allowed to die. I believe most comments stem from a true ignorance of what it feels like to suffer in that way. It really isn't comprehensible for a healthy person who has never experienced anything like it. 

There's a local police officer here who is being hailed as a hero right now, because he came across a man walking a bridge and stopped him from jumping off. Literally the man was standing on the edge and the officer caught him just as he stepped off and dragged him back to safety. "He's a hero, he saved that man's life!". I have no doubt the officer did what he thought was right and had good intentions. But saved him...? No, you dragged him back to suffering. The man wanted to die so badly that he fought the cop and tried to get loose to make it off that bridge, and had to be cuffed and put in a jacket and hauled to the mental facility. He was found to be 100% sober and following treatment for depression. Sometimes even the best and most consistent treatment isn't enough to get a handle on that. If a man has has a will to die, what's so bad about letting it happen? I will never understand.


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

kag123 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> It always shocks me when people say suicide is selfish. As if the ailing person should be forced to battle it out so as not to hurt those around them. If you want to die, you should be allowed to die. I believe most comments stem from a true ignorance of what it feels like to suffer in that way. It really isn't comprehensible for a healthy person who has never experienced anything like it.
> 
> There's a local police officer here who is being hailed as a hero right now, because he came across a man walking a bridge and stopped him from jumping off. Literally the man was standing on the edge and the officer caught him just as he stepped off and dragged him back to safety. "He's a hero, he saved that man's life!". I have no doubt the officer did what he thought was right and had good intentions. But saved him...? No, you dragged him back to suffering. The man wanted to die so badly that he fought the cop and tried to get loose to make it off that bridge, and had to be cuffed and put in a jacket and hauled to the mental facility. He was found to be 100% sober and following treatment for depression. Sometimes even the best and most consistent treatment isn't enough to get a handle on that. If a man has has a will to die, what's so bad about letting it happen? I will never understand.


Frankly, this is something I have wanted for decades. I have no doubt, I will eventualy get it right.

What doesn't help is those people who tell me how wrong it is, how selfish I am. These comments actually push me deeper in the hole I am in. It makes me even more determined to do it.

A lot of days, I don't question my ultimate goal. I only question, if is going to be today or not.


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## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

Tell me if I'm posting too many of these links.

"Selfish".


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

dormant said:


> Frankly, this is something I have wanted for decades. I have no doubt, I will eventualy get it right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I really hope you are able to connect with someone. When I say it is a lifetime struggle, I don't believe those who suffer should do so alone. We all have a responsibility to each other. If you need to talk (write about), please do so. If it is too private feel free to send me a PM. I really hope you have family and friends where you are that can help you daily through your struggle. 

Sending you aloha.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

dormant said:


> Frankly, this is something I have wanted for decades. I have no doubt, I will eventualy get it right.
> 
> What doesn't help is those people who tell me how wrong it is, how selfish I am. These comments actually push me deeper in the hole I am in. It makes me even more determined to do it.
> 
> A lot of days, I don't question my ultimate goal. I only question, if is going to be today or not.


I'm still freakin' here. You can't leave me alone. 

The short stints of happiness, a laugh, the friends who won't let you alone, like mine at TAM, (who I keep coming back for), are worth the effort.

Let yourself give up, and you won't have a chance to have those little times. Some of them are worth the wait. 

It has become easier for me. It's a matter of acceptance, knowledge of how to handle the bad times which grows, a building of friends and activities(like sharing music and personal thoughts, even when they aren't popular), anything that will let others get to know you and maybe, just maybe, you will make a difference in someone else. 

Isn't that really all we can ask for, just to help someone else feel a little better?

Oh, and you are right. This type of exposing thread can be harmful. I'll delete my posts in a little while.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Mental illness is selfish. 
Pretty much all illnesses are selfish, they don't care who's life they destroy or the damage and pain they cause. 
That doesn't mean the person who has the illness is selfish, I don't think many people would go up to someone who has cancer and tell them how selfish they are for having it and what it would do to their family and tell them that if they stop telling themselves they have cancer and making excuses for their liver/lungs or wherever they have cancer it will go away. 
When it comes to mental illness though it seems like a very common response.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

TiggyBlue said:


> Mental illness is selfish.
> Pretty much all illnesses are selfish, they don't care who's life they destroy or the damage and pain they cause.
> That doesn't mean the person who has the illness is selfish, I don't think many people would go up to someone who has cancer and tell them how selfish they are for having it and what it would do to their family and tell them that if they stop telling themselves they have cancer and making excuses for their liver/lungs or wherever they have cancer it will go away.
> When it comes to mental illness though it seems like a very common response.



Exactly.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Keep working on your perspective. It's what will help you the most. Things that happen only matter as much as you let them. 

Work on having more choices. It's the key to happiness.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I'm sure I will catch flak for this but I feel the selfish ones are those who are given the opportunity to reach out but fail to do so. I know that just like a cancer patients, even with the best care by the best oncologist, not all patients survive, but we need to reach out as best we can to help. It is not their fault, they were not being selfish, it sometimes just is what it is. However, I feel we all have a responsibility to listen and care for one another to the best of our abilities. 

I would have preferred that people take this as reflection on those we know afflicted with a mental disorder, to connect with them and reflect upon the larger picture of mental health care.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

dormant said:


> Frankly, this is something I have wanted for decades. I have no doubt, I will eventualy get it right.
> 
> What doesn't help is those people who tell me how wrong it is, how selfish I am. These comments actually push me deeper in the hole I am in. It makes me even more determined to do it.
> 
> A lot of days, I don't question my ultimate goal. I only question, if is going to be today or not.


And as long as the decision is "not today" things will get better. If everyone you ever met said the same thing to you, that it will get better, maybe it might be easier to believe or a little less hard? Maybe every smile you've ever recieved said exactly that? 

No one can really know the pain you feel but everyone can share their belief that no matter how hard this moment is right now, the next moment holds a promise that it will get better.

Have you spoken with your therapist today?


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Have you spoken with your therapist today?


No! I actually had an appointment scheduled for 3:00 today... 12 minutes from now. I cancelled it this morning.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I find B complex vitamins and eating well, staying away from short-lived sweets, trying to keep my weight down, getting enough sleep(extra), and being able to move from one activity to another, all help.

Working on cognitive distortions helps. Talking to a counselor, just to get affirmation on my conclusions or challenges when I'm not thinking clearly, are great help. 

Exercising is good, if you can do it. It's one of the tougher ones because I expect too much and find that I don't have the will to do it consistently. That puts more pressure on me, so I had to let it go.

Each time you accomplish something little, write it down. I even found that writing down the things that bothered me helped me to let them go. Even if just a little, it feels like quite a bit. 

One by one, things have to be done. You have to try not thinking too long about the distant future or what might happen. It's tough to do, but can be accomplished with the right therapist to talk with and bounce ideas off of.


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## cuchulain36 (Jul 8, 2014)

People who kill themselves are suffering from severe depression and mental illness you can't really judge them. I like to say I wouldn't kill myself but you never know, depression is a beast to deal with.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

dormant said:


> No! I actually had an appointment scheduled for 3:00 today... 12 minutes from now. I cancelled it this morning.


Sorry to read this. Today would have been a good day to go. 

Can't say I haven't done it, though. I have learned that pushing myself to go has helped more than hurt.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

dormant said:


> No! I actually had an appointment scheduled for 3:00 today... 12 minutes from now. I cancelled it this morning.



Make an appointment soon, please.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

dormant said:


> No! I actually had an appointment scheduled for 3:00 today... 12 minutes from now. I cancelled it this morning.


If you haven't already rescheduled it, I hope you do so quickly.

In the mean time, find something to laugh about.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

When I missed an appointment, it set me back in my ongoing story, which he actually did keep track of, believe it or not. 

When you go back, you will have lost a little of the momentum you built previously. It can be likened to a snowball rolling down a hill. It gets bigger and has more energy as it goes.

All of that translates to you being able to take more and more of the little comments which no one knows rip you apart inside. You feel stronger and you are. 

You've started to give yourself more choices. You've started healing.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> I find B complex vitamins and eating well, staying away from short-lived sweets, trying to keep my weight down, getting enough sleep(extra), and being able to move from one activity to another, all help.
> 
> Working on cognitive distortions helps. Talking to a counselor, just to get affirmation on my conclusions or challenges when I'm not thinking clearly, are great help.
> 
> ...


Agreed

I think emotion (which is what depression is) has a LOT to do with mental control and thought process. We have ability to control certain aspects of it.

It's no different than managing/controlling dirty thoughts that might come to your brain.......you either go with it and act on it, or you deflect them and carry on as if nothing happened.

Is a person that can't control those thoughts sick? Do we label that as a sickness of some kind? Do we have pills for that?

I realize that it's not as easy as that for those in extreme depression, but one has to keep on trying.......practice......etc.

Life is as great or as horrible as one makes it!

I've also noticed that during the times of depression, often my thoughts drive me deeper into it. So over time I've learned to just think positive and just ignore those thoughts.

I'm FAR from perfect on that end.

Also, DO NOT think of the big picture and take one day at a time. As a parent, thoughts of all the work, child raising ahead of you can be quite devistating to your well being. 

Things WILL work out. Good things happen to good people. 

MOST if NOT ALL of our worries also NEVER EVER happen.

For those that struggle with it, I would highly recommend this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYJdekjiAog


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

And the therapist keeps helping you to restart doing just that. I know I can find it super tough to get myself out of a funk, but he will know how to get me triggered into moving forward.

Once I learn more, I hope to be able to take over, but I am not going to promise myself anything I can't live up to. It's not fair to me.

See what I did there? I stopped from setting myself up, if I fail. It's not a three strikes and you're out thing. It's more like hitting foul balls. After two strikes, you just stay at the plate cause they don't count, and keep hitting them till you get one onto the field. At least you're hitting it, even if thrown out at first or you pop up.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

There is a deep existential depression that overtakes you seemingly out of nowhere. When it comes, there is a sense that the life you cherished is over. You can't see over the hill, and there is a strong sense that everything good about your life will never come back. Not ever.

When my brother died, I had no wife or children, I was alone. What 
centered my existence back then and gave me the sense of who I was, was my original family and the memories we had built up through the years.

When my brother died, I felt that my family as I knew and loved it had also died. All the memories were now meaningless.
Not only meaningless, but painful.

It would never be the same without him. One time during this, I was traveling and looked up at the snow covered mountains and how beautiful they were. But then, I suddenly felt a sorrow so deep and hollow because it reminded me of our family journeys when we were younger. That could never happen again with my brother gone. Not ever.

I felt at times so much in despair that my body would ache and there were all kinds of strange physical manifestations that doctors couldn't explain. I visited one doctor after another and they couldn't help. Oh for sure they saw real symptoms of physical illness. They just didn't know how to deal with it.

I thought about dying, but like most people I just thought about it.
A few times, I began to think about how to do it, but it never went beyond that.

After about 6 months a truly began to heal. After about 9 months I was close to my old self again. I remember finally almost 1 year to the day my brother died, I was with friends and we were out on the town and we got drunk. Someone said a stupid joke, and we all started laughing and I laughed so hard I almost cried. Then, I remembered: I hadn't laughed or even smiled since my brother died.

Oh, how wrong we can be. Since that time, I've had many highs and lows. I've climbed back up the mountain and had the best times of my life. I've been through a series of valleys and peaks, nothing nearly as bad or as long as that dark time.
I'm now married to the best woman I've ever known and I'm amazed at how wonderful life can be.

But when we're in that dark place, we just can't see it. We can't see over that hill. We know it might be there, but we can't see it and we truly believe that this is it, even if logic tells you otherwise.

Someday, this really will be it. Someday, there will be no tomorrows. But in the meantime, life continues to surprise.

R.I.P. Robin


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

This is more than depression. Robin Williams also had been addicted to some pretty heavy stuff over his lifetime. These two things will completely erode one's ability to effectively cope with situations...as some people can perceive a "silver lining" while others cannot see past the dark clouds. People commit suicide when pain exceeds the threshold of coping ability.


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## luv2luv (Mar 28, 2013)

FormerSelf said:


> This is more than depression. Robin Williams also had been addicted to some pretty heavy stuff over his lifetime. These two things will completely erode one's ability to effectively cope with situations...as some people can perceive a "silver lining" while others cannot see past the dark clouds. *People commit suicide when pain exceeds the threshold of coping ability.*


And that's what people don't seem to see. People who commit suicide are in so much pain (whether we think it's real or imaginary) that they would rather not be alive. It's so heartbreakingly sad that people feel so alone and hopeless.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Actually what kills most people is shame.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Most people that are suicidal don't really want to die.

They simply want the worst pain that they have ever felt to stop.

We must also keep in mind that bipolar depression is much worse than unipolar depression. The suicide rate is much higher.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

dormant said:


> Frankly, this is something I have wanted for decades. I have no doubt, I will eventualy get it right.
> 
> What doesn't help is those people who tell me how wrong it is, how selfish I am. These comments actually push me deeper in the hole I am in. It makes me even more determined to do it.
> 
> A lot of days, I don't question my ultimate goal. I only question, if is going to be today or not.


Dormant

As long as you are alive, there is always hope things can improve. 

I have been where you are, so I know what it is like. You have my sympathy and prayers.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I found that forcing yourself to have a life away from TAM, believe it or not, helps to reset my brain a bit. This site is a constant barrage of unhappiness, loneliness, pain and abandonment. It's a great resource filled with great people who are very supportive, but all the emotion can be detrimental to those prone to hopeless thoughts. 

Hope to see a post of yours dormant. Just let us know you are still fighting.


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## Tabitha (Jun 17, 2014)

I'll be interested to hear about whatever medication he was on for his depression....and whether he'd recently had a change in dosage or a change or addition of (added) meds. 

My NON-depressed husband was put on a powerful SSRI anti-depressant about 8 yrs ago for anxiety, and it about ruined our marriage before we figured out last year that it was a side-effect of this drug that caused his personality change and alcohol craving. He pretty much turned into a functional, "occasional" alcoholic just months after starting the med (only in hindsight did we see this). 

Last year after a dose increase then abrupt decrease back down a few months later, it made the craving worse AND his poor judgment got worse along with loss of inhibition. It's what let me to lurk on this site--he started flirting online with old female friends. Those mind-altering meds changed the way he thought--you couldn't even make him see that he was being inappropriate (we'd been married 25 years and he'd never been like this before). Another health incident happened which led us to discovering that this med was responsible for many things in his life, physical and mental, so he started a very slow taper off the med. 

At about 50% off, he felt a fog lift from his brain. At 75% off (where he's hanging out now while he re-learns how to deal with emotions) he says he has more clarity than he's had in years. He can finally NOW see that his antics of last summer were a result of the drug; he's embarrassed and ashamed. 

He still gets alcohol cravings and from time-to-time gives in and has too much. This is really a bad thing right now as he's dealing with withdrawal effects which are amplified by alcohol. The other day, he was kind of dozing in a chair while the alcohol wore off, and he opened his eyes and said "wow, all the sudden I'm just here!" He then suggested I might want to hide the handguns that we have in the bedroom. He said he didn't feel exactly suicidal, but he felt weird enough and worried enough about his sometimes UNCONTROLLABLE thoughts that it was probably a good idea to not have them there. What he doesn't know is that I worried about it earlier on in his withdrawal and had already hidden them. They'll stay hidden until he's off these horrible meds.

I can’t comprehend how a chemical can change your thoughts and make you want to do something that otherwise you wouldn’t want to do because I’ve never been there, but my husband says he now understands it. It’s not about being strong or weak, generous or selfish in personality; it’s about having your brain re-wired by a brain chemical imbalance—either chemically or organically induced—leading you to do something that a “sane” person wouldn’t do.

And on the subject of psych meds—a truly clinically depressed person whose brain is already out of whack, is the only type who should be prescribed these mind-altering meds in order to save their lives! People whose brains are not altered by chemical imbalance usually end up worse off after being on such meds. If they weren’t in mental trouble before going into the drug, they will later on, when trying to get off. Many women go in to the doctor complaining of hot flashes, and before you know it, they’re on anti-depressants. A few years pass and they decide it’s time to come off the med, THEN they’re suffering much more than any menopausal symptom could cause. 

It’s scary and sad that these types of MIND-ALTERING meds are so easily and freely prescribed. I thought the medical creed was supposed to be “first, do no harm”. I wonder which scenario is best: the times a psych med is given to a suicidal person and their life is saved OR the times a psych med is given to a mildly depressed or simply anxious person and their life is then ended by use of these meds.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

BostonBruins32 said:


> Curious, what are your views on this? And are your views consistent with most people in tough spots (not feeling bad for homeless, or no sympathy for drug addicts etc)?


I feel bad for all of the above but sometimes my actions or frustration would make people think that I don't. It's easy to reach out to help people only for them to become dependent upon your help. In other words help isn't always help. I also think it's possible (and common) to feel empathy for someone and also think that they're being selfish or 'fill in the blank'.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

kurt Cobain, Marilyn Monroe, Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison....

Just add Robin's name....

The list continues...


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Pretty good article. There's Nothing Selfish About Suicide | Katie Hurley

Here's a snippet from it.

Suicide is a decision made out of desperation, hopelessness, isolation and loneliness. The black hole that is clinical depression is all-consuming. Feeling like a burden to loved ones, feeling like there is no way out, feeling trapped and feeling isolated are all common among people who suffer from depression.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Zanne said:


> AR, I imagine this very conversation is going on in internet forums, offices, bars, classrooms, etc., as the world tries to understand why such a brilliant person would take his own life.
> 
> For me, I feel sadness for his loneliness; for certainly in that moment you must feel alone.
> 
> ...


My mother has had a long-standing relationship with the cloud of depression. It was at its worst when I was in high school. She spoke with me about Robin Williams' death and said 'Unless someone's been through it, it's really hard to explain what that darkness feels like..' I know she's found her own ways of coping; some days are better than others. She told me that she'd started struggling again. I was surprised as it was only the week before that she told me that she was in a really good place. She said this is what depressed people do - they try to hide it but it's always there and she struggles with feelings of guilt.

Her dialogue was full of things that I felt myself wanting to fix. I know there's nothing helpful or realistic about that. For the most part, I've learned to just listen but then, I'm not a psychologist and become conflicted about being talked at when she could choose to seek further help. I expressed that we needed a new way to communicate about it and she agreed.

I accept her for who she is. She will be honest with how she is. I told her that I love her and to know she can always call me (we live in different states). She promised that if her mind is racing she will call, simply to say she's having a bad day so that I can remind her how loved she is and to hang in there. 

I'm going back to read other posts now to see if there's any wisdom I can gain. I feel empathy for those with depression. I've seen up close how it can debilitate someone. And yet, I've felt the selfishness and frustration that depression brings too. Everything aside, I'm thankful my mother has pulled herself through and I'd hate for anyone to feel so hopeless that they can't see a way out in that moment.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

lenzi said:


> One of the "positive" things about Robin Williams untimely departure is that it brings attention to the ignorance that is so rampant among the population of our planet.
> 
> Not that the ignorance is going to suddenly evaporate, as the above quoted post clearly shows, but at least we can see it, and we can shake our heads and realize that we cannot expect everyone to understand.



I'm sorry but you're just plain wrong. I understand way more about this than you can imagine and certainly more than you on the subject matter. You are the one displaying ignorance as I'd wager you don't know a thing about how to recover from such conditions. I have counseled in this area before and have been around addicts and alcoholics in recovery most of my adult life.

Depression is not a disease. It just isn't and I don't care what mental health wacko calling himself a professional believes. Depression has often been defined as anger turned inward, which makes a lot of sense.

I think depression is certainly a real struggle for some people but it is treatable and can be overcome. Recovery programs are designed for this very purpose and are a viable solution for most struggling in this area. I think Meds are really only necessary for a small percentage as most really don't need it.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

VermisciousKnid said:


> It *IS* a disease in many of these cases. It *IS* out of their control in many cases. There is something wrong in their brains organically speaking.
> 
> People don't understand that because many of these people are high functioning and appear to be well.
> 
> ...



You just made the exact same argument for drug addicts and alcoholics, who have also changed their brain chemistry from years of substance abuse. it can be reversed as I've seen it thousands of times through recovery programs.

Even those that are clinically depressed, manic or bipolar have all had similarly good results working 12 step programs. As you might imagine, many with severe depression are also addicted to other substances so I see all kinds. In fact, I think substance abuse contributes in many ways, or at least exacerbates the problem. Meds are not always the solution. I'm just not one that completely buys the "it's a disease" thing and it can't be controlled because I've seen otherwise when the patient is completely willing to try.

Live in Gratitude and Acceptance, Trust God, and Serve Others.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

soulpotato said:


> Invalidating and alienating - in other words, unhelpful at best and harmful or provocative at worst.
> 
> How does anyone know how "temporary" anyone else's problems are? Or what they deal with? Or that it's not worth dying to get away from? No one else has the right to decide what someone else should endure (or what the state of their problems are) except for that person.



So now you're justifying suicide? That's ignorant and incredibly selfish. How many other people (friends and family members) did Robin Williams' act harm? I'd bet a lot. Most would call that a selfish act that only benefits you (or perceived benefit in this case) and harms many others.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I watched a friend have an anxiety attack and thought OMG what a freaking wuss - get it together. I just cannot comprehend it. I'm too logical. So what set her off made me think "what's the worst that could happen in this situation?" and it was certainly nothing to panic over so I just didn't get it.


My mother suffers anxiety - I don't know whether the anxiety triggers the depression or the other way around. It could be as simple as that she needs to go pay a bill (she does it the old-school way rather than online). Going out to pay a bill can be something that she has to work up the courage to do. She will do it, but it will take up copious amount of mental energy until it's done. It's not about the money or anything other than... anxiety.

Her depression seems to be a spiral of dark thoughts that begin with negative memories of the past and brought to the surface as though they just happened. 

I prefer not to share 'stresses' of my life with her because of this. She said she appreciates this. Thing is, it's for my own benefit more than anything - if something is stressful to me, then having to deal with her anxiety about it simply adds to my own stress. I don't suffer from anxiety or depression. I understand that she doesn't choose her anxiety. I do think she chooses not to seek further help though - and yet, completely understand that depression and anxiety is the very thing that may prevent her from doing so. It's a cycle. She says she has her ways of dealing with it though.

What I need to learn is how to best deal with our interactions. Growing up, I was the only one she would turn to. As a 15 year old, I used to do all the 'fix it' solutions. You're lonely? Go meet people! You're depressed? Go speak to someone! ....until I reached the point of realizing that it wasn't what she needed, both of us ended up frustrated with one another, and it wasn't a healthy dynamic.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

Mr Williams lost his lifetime battle with depression and will be remembered and loved as a comic genius. He is survived by... 


Clinical depression changes your mind. Quiet literally.

The thought process that leads to one taking their own life is logical and sensible. At the time it seems the only reasonable thing to do.


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I found that forcing yourself to have a life away from TAM, believe it or not, helps to reset my brain a bit. This site is a constant barrage of unhappiness, loneliness, pain and abandonment. It's a great resource filled with great people who are very supportive, but all the emotion can be detrimental to those prone to hopeless thoughts.
> 
> Hope to see a post of yours dormant. Just let us know you are still fighting.


I'm still here.


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## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

Mostlycontent said:


> So now you're justifying suicide? That's ignorant and incredibly selfish. How many other people (friends and family members) did Robin Williams' act harm? I'd bet a lot. Most would call that a selfish act that only benefits you (or perceived benefit in this case) and harms many others.


Did you read my link entitled 'Selfish' a few pages back?


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Mostlycontent said:


> So now you're justifying suicide? That's ignorant and incredibly selfish. How many other people (friends and family members) did Robin Williams' act harm? I'd bet a lot. Most would call that a selfish act that only benefits you (or perceived benefit in this case) and harms many others.


At my lowest point, I checked my life insurance and looked into the financial effect for everyone. I was more concerned about that than living.


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## lancaster (Dec 2, 2013)

I have yet to see suicide as cowardly or selfish. It is no more selfish than people wanting children of their own while millions world wide could be adopted.

I think suicide is anything but cowardly. I doubt I would have the balls to hang myself.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

lancaster said:


> I have yet to see suicide as cowardly or selfish. It is no more selfish than people wanting children of their own while millions world wide could be adopted.
> 
> I think suicide is anything but cowardly. *I doubt I would have the balls to hang myself.*


Yep. The fear of having to live with the consequences of a failed attempt is the only thing that keeps me here on a lot of days. I think I'm more of a coward for that reason than I would be if I succeeded in actually ending things.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

dormant said:


> I'm still here.


Great!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

lancaster said:


> I have yet to see suicide as cowardly or selfish.* It is no more selfish than people wanting children of their own while millions world wide could be adopted.*
> 
> I think suicide is anything but cowardly. I doubt I would have the balls to hang myself.


I have always said My wanting my own children was ...well.. *"selfish"*.. we looked into adopting when I couldn't conceive -but the truth was...my heart was not into it... I can buy your line of thinking here.. even if it makes me look bad.

I haven't read all the latest posts but it's all over the news he had early stages of Parkinisons...which can lead to tremors, depression, sleeplessness and dementia, and leave a sufferer bed-bound in a decade...just so very very sad ... 

Parkinson's drugs to blame for Robin Williams' death claims Rob Schneider: 'One of the side effects is suicide!' - The Independent

Williams’ secret battle with Parkinson’s disease | 



> Robin Williams' Parkinson's diagnosis had an impact on his depressed state ... on both a psychological and physiological level -- but it's NOT why he committed suicide ... multiple sources connected to the family tell TMZ.
> 
> We're told ... Robin was struggling emotionally with the diagnosis ... like anyone would. Our sources say Parkinson's was NOT the reason for his depression ... something Robin lived with for years. But we're told the Parkinson's news "exacerbated" his depressed state of mind.
> 
> ...


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

What if he had ALS or stage 4 leukemia?


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Mostlycontent said:


> I'm sorry but you're just plain wrong. I understand way more about this than you can imagine and certainly more than you on the subject matter. You are the one displaying ignorance as I'd wager you don't know a thing about how to recover from such conditions. I have counseled in this area before and have been around addicts and alcoholics in recovery most of my adult life.
> 
> Depression is not a disease. It just isn't and I don't care what mental health wacko calling himself a professional believes.


Right. You're a "counselor" and you know what's right and what's wrong and those silly mental health professionals don't know anything either.

Got it.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Mostlycontent said:


> I'm sorry but you're just plain wrong. I understand way more about this than you can imagine and certainly more than you on the subject matter. You are the one displaying ignorance as I'd wager you don't know a thing about how to recover from such conditions. I have counseled in this area before and have been around addicts and alcoholics in recovery most of my adult life.
> 
> Depression is not a disease. It just isn't and I don't care what mental health wacko calling himself a professional believes. Depression has often been defined as anger turned inward, which makes a lot of sense.


In the sense of using the word disease, true, depression is not classified as a disease. The term associated with the clinical depression is a disorder. Does counseling work? Sure it can, in much the same way chemotherapy can work to battle against cancer. However like cancer which normally requires a c0cktail of drugs, clinical depression often requires a multi-pronged approach, depending on the individual and his/her severity along the spectrum. 

However to assume that somehow depression is not real in the clinical sense, I would have to disagree as would the APA. Current DSM volume 5 places individuals in the larger category of mood disorders:


_Mood Disorders 

Common Characteristics
The disorders in this category include those where the primary symptom is a disturbance in mood. In other words, inappropriate, exaggerated, or limited range of feelings. Everybody gets down sometimes, and everybody experiences a sense of excitement and emotional pleasure. To be diagnosed with a mood disorder, your feelings must be to the extreme. In other words, crying, and/or feeling depressed, suicidal frequently. Or, the opposite extreme, having excessive energy where sleep is not needed for days at a time and during this time the decision making process in significantly hindered.

Disorders in this Category
Bipolar Disorder
Cyclothymic Disorder
Dysthymic Disorder
Major Depressive Disorder_


I do believe what troubles some is that it is not quite like cancer, I get it. It is harder than the definitive diagnosis from a CT scan or an MRI by evidence of a growth (along with histological and biochemical analysis). However, medical research is moving toward making most of these more definitive... As such the language may change toward the disease classification. Even ahead of that time which is not here in all cases, it does not necessarily make it less clinical. So I too am just as skeptical of over diagnosing as I am of suggesting it is all bunk. I would hope that they are able to retrieve tissue and organ samples from Mr. Williams to help us better understand.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Depression most certainly is medical, chemical. Depressive psychotics have different fMRI's than non. There's different chemistry in play. It's no less organic than diabetes.


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