# Can men tell me what happened here?



## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

I know women go through this kind of story a lot, but I like to think I am an intelligent woman (35) who runs a company and is a good judge of character (normally!). I get asked out _a lot,_ but am really selective, trying to only choose men who seem compatible and also honest, kind and good people.

I met a man through online dating (41). We both have very busy careers and similar backgrounds / objectives so on paper this was a great match. 

We talked for a couple of weeks over text / telephone and then had a brief coffee date to meet, which went very well. He said many, many times how beautiful I was and how much he liked things about me (my confidence, fun nature, sweetness). 

We progressed to a second date lunch date, which went very well with the first kiss and hand holding and he seemed very much besotted and I began to warm to him because he seemed very humble, kind and honest. 

We progressed to a third date, dinner this time, which went really wonderfully. Lots of kissing and talking and feeling warm and happy.

Throughout this time, I'd say he was very attentive, consistent, kind, gentlemanly and seemed to have a lovely and caring disposition. 

The fourth date, which we had last week, was dinner at my place (all I could manage with my schedule that day) and he arrived with flowers and wine and we had a really great evening. We properly talked over that night, revealed a lot about ourselves and out past (he had a horrible marriage and he seemed to be very much still quite upset and angry about it) and I felt over that night we became really emotionally intimate.

We slept together that night, and I think he enjoyed the sex because we did it multiple times, and again multiple times in the morning. He stayed for most of the next day, and we talked a lot more, cuddled, kissed and it felt definitely like the start of a relationship.

Then he left and messaged me shortly afterwards to say he enjoyed the time he spent with me and thought the sex was amazing but he just could not "do" a relationship and he felt I deserved one.

I'm not sure what to think or feel about this, he definitely made out he was growing a relationship with me, so I am confused. if he didn't like me, why did he spend so much time on me, and if the sex was disappointing, why did he keep doing it?

I haven't been with a man for a year, due to being selective and wanting to meet someone right, and that night we had such a wonderful, close and intimate time and it felt very clear he was loving the time he was spending with me from his words and actions so I am very confused about why he suddenly doesn't want to see me again.

I also feel a bit violated! It makes me feel almost ill when I think this person had that intimacy with me (emotionally and physically) and he treated me like I was invisible afterwards.

Why does a man behave like this?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Because despite him meeting such a wonderful woman who he was really starting to get attached to, his ex had damaged him far more than he has acknowledged and he really is not yet in a place mentally where he can risk being vulnerable enough to give himself the chance of finding love again.

He may never be in that place, emotionally.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Sophie55 said:


> I know women go through this kind of story a lot, but I like to think I am an intelligent woman (35) who runs a company and is a good judge of character (normally!). I get asked out _a lot,_ but am really selective, trying to only choose men who seem compatible and also honest, kind and good people.
> 
> I met a man through online dating (41). We both have very busy careers and similar backgrounds / objectives so on paper this was a great match.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately you came into contact with a player and once he slept with you he moved on.The only reason he hung on so long was his age,if he had been fifteen years younger he wouldn't have waited so long for sex.There is not much you can do here other than put it behind you and move on.
At least the sex was good.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*What you have encountered, @Sophie55 ~ is greatly what I would fear myself of becoming!

Although at least I truly believe that my conscience could never allow me to ever lead a woman on!

It was, however, within his psychological makeup! But the sad thing is that he will probably repeat this act many times over in order to get to that next elusive piece that he's so ardently pursuing!

Guys like him give honest, sincere men everywhere a bad name!*


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

My advice might not be agreeable to you, and I'm a woman, so feel free to disregard, but if you are truly looking for a committed relationship, don't have sex so early on. There are unfortunately many men out there like the one you dated, who may either be players, damaged, carring great baggage, etc. 

I dated several like your guy, and because I was very adamant about wanting a RELATIONSHIP, I would not have sex until we dated for 3 months. Many of them, even the most mature seeming and romantic, dropped like flies. 

Many posters here, especially men, think 3 months is rediculous, I'm sure, however those were my personal boundaries. I love sex, but I also know that I only want it with a man who truly wants me and to give up the cookie early would send a message I didn't want to send. 

IMO, having sex early on shows with actions that you'll go against your own words when you tell men that you're selectively looking for a committed relationship. They'll think twice about your seriousness and put you in the "fun woman" box. You want to be in the "marrying kind" box. 

I know there are many posters here who had sex early on, married, and are happy, but they are the outliers IMO, especially in this day and age. My current husband and I waited, because we both wanted the relationship to blossom and succeed on its own merit. When we had sex the first time, it was mind blowing and has been that way since. 

So in summary, I think that you need to respect what you can offer to a man more than you currently are. Protect it, and a man who is right for you will emerge. Any man can tell you you're beautiful and say the right things, but if you don't give enough time to really tell from his actions if he's as noble as he seems, then you're only making things easier for him and unfair to you. 

All the best.


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

I'm not so sure I would label the guy as a player, my thoughts were more of an emotionally unavailable man. I don't think a player is going to quit after a night of great sex, he's going to want to keep tapping that until something else comes along. 

OP I think it was entirely possible the guy went into it with the right intentions, but when things developed into what could be an actual relationship he freaked out. Dating was easy, no strings and you walk away at any time, but once that emotional connection is made things change, now there's expectations, commitments and obligations, there's the time necessary, the planning, the compromising. It was fun to wine and dine you, but he doesn't want to have to do that all the time, that takes energy he doesn't have or isn't willing to give. 

I recognize myself in your post, in my head I keep thinking I want to be in a relationship, but when it comes down to it I'm not willing to give of myself what is needed in a relationship. It took me awhile to recognize this in myself, and I hurt a few women along the way, that's one of the reasons I haven't been on an actual date in three years. I love women and miss a woman's company, but know I will just end up hurting them.

Sophie55 I know my answer doesn't make you feel any better, I know you still feel played, and the guy certainly could have intentionally played you, or he could just be screwed up and is afraid of a good thing.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> Unfortunately you came into contact with a player and once he slept with you he moved on.The only reason he hung on so long was his age,if he had been fifteen years younger he wouldn't have waited so long for sex.There is not much you can do here other than put it behind you and move on.
> At least the sex was good.


That's also a possibility.

Though do players care enough about what other people think of them to offer an apology as to why the relationship will go no further?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Satya said:


> My advice might not be agreeable to you, and I'm a woman, so feel free to disregard, but if you are truly looking for a committed relationship, don't have sex so early on. There are unfortunately many men out there like the one you dated, who may either be players, damaged, carring great baggage, etc.
> 
> I dated several like your guy, and because I was very adamant about wanting a RELATIONSHIP, I would not have sex until we dated for 3 months. Many of them, even the most mature seeming and romantic, dropped like flies.
> 
> ...


Three months, filled with getting to know each other, going out on fun dates, meals, etc? Yeah, I could see that as being a good idea.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Thank you to everybody for the responses.

I think that in my head it just felt like none of the normal rules seemed to follow in this situation because I understand that sometimes a person won't find you attractive or sometimes they won't like you or sometimes they don't want a relationship and sometimes they just want sex; and normally if any of those things are true, you can read it to a strong degree from their actions and body language and behavior. When someone does something like this it makes me feel quite vulnerable in dating because he didn't act or reveal any of those things.

Satya you are quite right of course, I realise "making a man wait" is a way to ascertain his character and intentions and you're right on so many levels about this. Being honest, I'd gone a long time without sex or affection (I am quite selective with dating and also afraid of being hurt or used) and I'd had some wine and it felt right. My gut was wrong on this one because at no point did I anticipate any possibility of this happening with this particular man. On the upside, he revealed his poor character to me early in. I love sex too, but it's amazing how quickly a sensible woman can feel cheap when something like this happens and I don't like the way it's made me feel.

Cooper, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your words there. It's strange because people say words like "player" but I am a big believer that underneath it all, most human being just want the same thing - to love and be loved - and when men (or women) act like this I so often think it's fear that prevents them from acting normally. I mean, he wasted a month of my time, yes, but also a month of his own. There's easier ways to get sex, especially for a handsome 41 year old doctor with his own practice, so part of me believes he was at least playing at the fantasy of having a relationship and maybe wasn't up to the job. 

His past relationship history, which he actually divulged in full that night, is pretty sad. He married his first girlfriend right out of college and ended up trapped for 16 years in a marriage with someone who sounded like a really bad bully. This guy came across as very weak / not assertive, and what he described to me sounded like pretty high level emotional abuse. He still seemed very shaken and he is only two years out from that divorce that cost him 80% of his assets and she now won't let him see his young children. Actually the day he left here he was going to see his children for the first time in months because she was obstructing contact. He did seem honestly really upset and he mentioned that he was worried about feeling "trapped" or "controlled" again so maybe it is easier for him to feel safety in freedom and without attachment to anyone who can potentially harm him that way again.

So maybe, yes, he enjoyed the idea of me, but the reality of what it would mean was too hard. I felt mostly quite sad for him because I know we had a good time, that he was happy because he didn't want to leave and he missed out really here on knowing a woman who liked him for himself and would have been kind and loving towards him which he has never experienced.

He might have played me, but he lost out too. I don't think anyone gets real satisfaction or happiness from behaving like this.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Sophie55 said:


> Thank you to everybody for the responses.
> 
> I think that in my head it just felt like none of the normal rules seemed to follow in this situation because I understand that sometimes a person won't find you attractive or sometimes they won't like you or sometimes they don't want a relationship and sometimes they just want sex; and normally if any of those things are true, you can read it to a strong degree from their actions and body language and behavior. When someone does something like this it makes me feel quite vulnerable in dating because he didn't act or reveal any of those things.
> 
> ...


Oh. Likely scenario, he mentioned to his abusive bully ex that he was seeing someone and she said: "Drop her, or you'll never see your children again."

So he did what he was told.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> That's also a possibility.
> 
> Though do players care enough about what other people think of them to offer an apology as to why the relationship will go no further?


When I made my original post I didn't know the guy was a doctor.I have mentioned this before but when I was single and in the dating game there were two types of people I refused to date.Doctors and nurses.
As for your question would he apologise afterwards for running.Of course he would,the op is even now excusing his behaviour,he doesn't want her telling women what a bastard he really is.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

maybe hes still married!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

chillymorn69 said:


> maybe hes still married!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Without reading other replies (yet), my guess is that he's being honest, and just isn't ready.

You mentioned he discussed his previous marriage and still seemed upset and angry about it. That's all you need to know about that. 4th date, and he's talking angrily about his ex-wife. Ouch.

The other likelihood is that he is/was looking to have a pretty casual relationship - but doesn't quite know how to go about it. Hence the "dating". He got home that day, and realized that he was well on his way to an actual relationship.

I wouldn't say that he was only looking to get laid, but that's a possibility, too. And perhaps he thought he was going about it the 'right' way (without being a player or a dog) because that's the only way he knows how.

But when that happened, and he had a little time to reflect, he may have thought "oh ****, I've just started an actual relationship here".

Honestly, it sucks for you, but it is what it is. At the very least, it sounds like he treated you well, and you had a few good dates. I can see how you would feel taken advantage of or a little violated, but I don't get the impression that was his goal - just to bed you.

At the end of the day, consider it a blessing. I wouldn't want to date someone who was still vocally angry at their ex partner. That implies they still have feelings of some sort for them. I was angry at my ex wife for a long time, but I never once let it seep into my relationship with my now-wife. I never talked about her, discussed her in any way. She was a non-entity in my relationship.



Sophie55 said:


> I know women go through this kind of story a lot, but I like to think I am an intelligent woman (35) who runs a company and is a good judge of character (normally!). I get asked out _a lot,_ but am really selective, trying to only choose men who seem compatible and also honest, kind and good people.
> 
> I met a man through online dating (41). We both have very busy careers and similar backgrounds / objectives so on paper this was a great match.
> 
> ...


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

When I was dating I thought 3 months was ridiculous. I thought waiting 3 dates was unreasonable. But I am a man and I was genuinely looking for a relationship, a permanent relationship. 

It did not dawn on me a woman might not be looking for the same, so I saw no reason to wait. I don't think I ever met a woman who wasn't looking for a permanent relationship. Yeah, I'm sure there's some out there, whatever. 

I'm a lot older now. I've realized men are terrible. You have to do something to weed out the players. It's too bad you have to give up your freedoms and fun to do that. 

Good luck.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

The still married thing did occur to me  but I don't think so as he invited me to his house.

I do think he had some issues, was clear from the way he was talking that his view of relationships is not necessarily positive; whereas mine is very positive so there was a mismatch there. 

What I suppose made me feel so bad was the element of rejection. Nobody likes that feeling.

I can understand men want the sex and all that, and I know in this case his physical attraction was very high and he was eagerly anticipating sleeping with me, but we all want to feel like there's more to us, and this made me feel very cheap.

I could almost understand having a few drinks and ending up in bed together and realising it was a mistake and getting the heck out of there, but the part where I felt we bonded mentally and emotionally hurt me actually quite a lot. You don't expect a guy to bring the flowers and look so nervous and hold your hand and talk to you all night about hopes and dreams and the past and future if it's a "hit and run".

I think I just truly believed it was something.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

From what I have heard, that describes a player exactly. That's exactly how they operate. 

You need to expect it.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

alexm said:


> Without reading other replies (yet), my guess is that he's being honest, and just isn't ready.
> 
> You mentioned he discussed his previous marriage and still seemed upset and angry about it. That's all you need to know about that. 4th date, and he's talking angrily about his ex-wife. Ouch.
> 
> ...


That sounds the most likely scenario so far. Thank you. It did feel, to be honest, like we started a relationship that night and for me that felt wonderful / exciting and for him obviously the opposite. 

As someone said earlier, I guess if someone is a player and has great sex they want to at least keep having it until something new comes along. 
I do think the sex was crazily good and from his response and the ability at age 41 to have in 9 times in 12 hours he obviously enjoyed it too - but in this case instead of wanting more after putting in all the ground work, he ran for the hills because it felt too much like a relationship.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Sophie55 said:


> His past relationship history, which he actually divulged in full that night, is pretty sad. He married his first girlfriend right out of college and ended up trapped for 16 years in a marriage with someone who sounded like a really bad bully. This guy came across as very weak / not assertive, and what he described to me sounded like pretty high level emotional abuse. He still seemed very shaken and he is only two years out from that divorce that cost him 80% of his assets and she now won't let him see his young children. Actually the day he left here he was going to see his children for the first time in months because she was obstructing contact. He did seem honestly really upset and he mentioned that he was worried about feeling "trapped" or "controlled" again so maybe it is easier for him to feel safety in freedom and without attachment to anyone who can potentially harm him that way again.
> .


This scares a ton of strong men, not just weak and possibly abused ones. I was in line with Cooper's assessment and more so now. He told you all of this before sex right? I know some are going to push the cheater and player angle, but I could see fear driving him away. I mean some of the other examples, I'm not saying they are wrong, come from posters own personal past experiences. Our past colors who we are and sometimes it steers us in the wrong direction.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Sophie55 said:


> Being honest, I'd gone a long time without sex or affection (I am quite selective with dating and also afraid of being hurt or used) and I'd had some wine and it felt right. My gut was wrong on this one because *at no point did I anticipate any possibility of this happening with this particular man.*


 @Sophie55, I think everyone here can appreciate your honesty and I find you to be very mature. I will point out though, that inviting a man to your house is a bro code word for sex. Many, many women do not understand this. I hope the TAM men will back me up. In any case, you should be wary of this as you date on the future. No man was allowed near my home until we had a very solidified level of trust. You need to be more conscious of your safety.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

By the way, a husband of a cousin of mine preyed on Mary in a very similar way once. It's what they do. 

Charm, smooth talker, pushes all the sympathy buttons, long talks, lots of kissing, from what I heard. Mary is a special snowflake so what do I know, but hey, that was long ago. 

Expect it.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

WilliamM said:


> When I was dating I thought 3 months was ridiculous. I thought waiting 3 dates was unreasonable. But I am a man and I was genuinely looking for a relationship, a permanent relationship.
> 
> It did not dawn on me a woman might not be looking for the same, so I saw no reason to wait. I don't think I ever met a woman who wasn't looking for a permanent relationship. Yeah, I'm sure there's some out there, whatever.
> 
> ...



Thanks William. Honestly, if I had the choice, I prefer to have sex early. I think it's more natural to just go with what feels right and because it's a HUGE part of the relationship I also want to establish that it works before I get to know someone. Unfortunately - you're right. Facts are you do need to weed out the wheat from the chaff a little and waiting a while before sex makes sense. 

I can't say I want a relationship, I just want a relationship with the right guy. I want it all to feel right, to work for me and make my life better and be fun and exciting and it's not that easy to find. If men wanted to have sex but ALSO get to know you, that would be awesome, but I wonder if the online dating culture has made that impossible. Sometimes they are just so spoiled for choice they are looking for the next, best thing the entire time and they could meet the absolute perfect woman but don't take the time to get to know her.

I dislike playing games, and with-holding sex always felt like that to me. Maybe I need to change and wise-up


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

For the major majority of men, It's Bro Code for "there might be a chance, don't screw it up."
For those terrible men you alluded to when you said "safety" it is 100% sex whether you want to or not.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I guess when I say wanted a relationship, I meant open to the possibility. Or at least not at a point where I knew I didn't want to pursue a long term relationship. 

Like that.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Making a man wait 3 months doesn't put you in the marriage box, it puts you in the gate keeper / game player box. That's why good men dropped like flies. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> This scares a ton of strong men, not just weak and possibly abused ones. I was in line with Cooper's assessment and more so now. He told you all of this before sex right? I know some are going to push the cheater and player angle, but I could see fear driving him away. I mean some of the other examples, I'm not saying they are wrong, come from posters own personal past experiences. Our past colors who we are and sometimes it steers us in the wrong direction.


No, this was the post-sex conversation. I knew he'd been unhappily married, but I am dating 40 year old men and they were ALL unhappily married right?!! or most. 

I do ask for relationship history early on and his story was: married out of college, divorced after 15 years, he was unhappy in the marriage and in the two years since the divorce he had dated a few women and had two serious relationships. to me that sounded relatively rounded.

What he divulged after the sex was much more intimate, details of an ex wife who was diagnosed with borderline personality. He's a doctor, so that's not an armchair diagnosis. Him being afraid to come home and parking his car around the corner on his way home wishing he didn't have to go back there because all she did was attack him. Her demanding to see his phone and track his every move. Him hating her but not knowing what to do and eventually running away. What came across as weak, wasn't his fears, but his reaction to those. He didn't sound like a guy who stood up for himself or what was right. I was surprised by how little effort he seemed to put into seeing his children, as his fear of the ex wife seemed more prevalent than his desire to be a father.

He has a son with ASD, and so do I. I felt quite sad for his son, with a father who doesn't see him and a BPD mother he really needs his father to fight for him and protect him. I guess to me that sounded like weakness of character. 

In terms of the "relationships" he had described having since then, something was also a bit off. He gave reasons for the breakups that didn't follow logically. Like "well she wanted to buy a house and w couldn't agree on what to buy so I left". I said to him at the time, "well if you're in love you work that stuff out, sounds like you weren't that attached" and he said he wasn't. He said actually he didn't think he'd ever actually genuinely been properly in love and he mentioned feeling that relationships were traps and he didn't like being needed.

All this came after sex, but he was being so open with me and so unguarded that it actually warmed me to him.

He seemed genuinely upset, like you could see he was getting animated talking about it. I did think at the time that sounded bad, but I am a very warm and calm person and as a young widow, I know all about pain and grief and seeing it in others kind of makes me feel more interested in knowing them.

I remember just thinking we'd be a great match. I am strong and independent and very caring and loving and I felt he needed that. He was very gentle and kind and intelligent and I need that. We have similar children. We have similar careers and levels of education. We laughed a lot at the same stuff and we're both pretty childish - we were playing such fun games. 

Overall I feel we both missed out!


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

It really appears to me the man is jaded from his first disaster of a marriage. He is not ready to try again. In other words, the man has enough on his plate with xw and children he is not able to see that adding in Sophie to the debacle is not fair to her. In short, he will not be in the relationship 100% because of the noise he is hearing all day from xw. He did state he could give Sophie the relationship she deserves.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

It is either he was a player or he was genuine about being hurt. I have been the hurt guy and freaked out when things felt too serious quickly and bolted. It's really hard to know which it is. I am going with the hurt guy though based on a few details of your story but it doesn't matter it ended the same .

This unfortunately is just a part of dating. More disappointments than successes. Don't let one bad experience change who or what you are. Throwing an arbitrary number on how long to wait for sex may just push away good guys as well. Sorry no easy answers. Men go through this stuff as well. Dating is not for the feint of heart


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Three months, filled with getting to know each other, going out on fun dates, meals, etc? Yeah, I could see that as being a good idea.


I could see it as a deal breaker. I think sex is crucial to a romantic relationship and have zero desire to become emotionally attached to someone before I know we're sexually compatible. Not to mention, I'd interpret no sex for a month or more as a serious lack of real interest/attraction.

Casual dating? Whatever. Looking for serious? I want to know we are compatible ASAP. If we aren't, I want move on and continue the search.



MattMatt said:


> Oh. Likely scenario, he mentioned to his abusive bully ex that he was seeing someone and she said: "Drop her, or you'll never see your children again."
> 
> So he did what he was told.


If he's too much of a puss or too disinterested to enforce his parental rights, she made a lucky escape.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

@Satya - I'll back you up. If I invite a woman to my house or go to her house I pretty much know we're going to sleep together because the environment is setup for that to happen. 

Sophie, I want to present another idea. Maybe it was you that were not reading him correctly and that scared him off. A lot of guys are not comfortable when a woman is thinking that it is a developing relationship after only 4 dates, even if there was sex involved. Even if you didn't directly say it, there is usually a lot of non-verbal cues that indicate that one person is wanting to develop things faster than the other person is comfortable with. A better long term strategy with guys that are slow movers would have been to just hang out and have fun with him and see if something developed, without having any expectations of your own. Personally, it takes me at least 6 months of dating to decide if I want to move beyond casual with a woman. However, if during that 6 months the woman is pushing hard for a relationship and it's obvious we aren't moving at the same speed I will stop seeing her and find someone else that is more in sync with my relationship speed.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> I could see it as a deal breaker. I think sex is crucial to a romantic relationship and have zero desire to become emotionally attached to someone before I know we're sexually compatible. Not to mention, I'd interpret no sex for a month or more as a serious lack of real interest/attraction.
> 
> Casual dating? Whatever. Looking for serious? I want to know we are compatible ASAP. If we aren't, I want move on and continue the search.


My BIL who is divorced and dating said after the 3rd date if nothing sexually is happening he moves on. Hmmmm....maybe why he is single. :|


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Yeswecan said:


> It really appears to me the man is jaded from his first disaster of a marriage. He is not ready to try again. In other words, the man has enough on his plate with xw and children he is not able to see that adding in Sophie to the debacle is not fair to her. In short, he will not be in the relationship 100% because of the noise he is hearing all day from xw. He did state he could give Sophie the relationship she deserves.


I'd like to think that was true.

One thing we talked about that night was me. My family, my life, my son. He probably got more of a glimpse into who I am and he saw photos of me, my life and saw me as a human being.

I also talked to him a lot about the death of my husband 4 years ago, and during that conversation he was holding my hand and it wasn't easy for me to share / open up on that level but it felt right and I felt like he really cared.

This made me feel even more bad about the dumping, but i'd like to think he felt I deserved better, rather than that he sat through all that and didn't like me!!!


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Outline dating is really skeptical. You'll run into lots of players. I think you let the relationship get physical and progress way too fast. If you decide to continue outline dating, slow things way down even if things seem to be going real good. The players will get bored and move on, leaving you those who are legitimately interested in you.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Wolf1974 said:


> It is either he was a player or he was genuine about being hurt. I have been the hurt guy and freaked out when things felt too serious quickly and bolted. It's really hard to know which it is. I am going with the hurt guy though based on a few details of your story but it doesn't matter it ended the same .
> 
> This unfortunately is just a part of dating. More disappointments than successes. Don't let one bad experience change who or what you are. Throwing an arbitrary number on how long to wait for sex may just push away good guys as well. Sorry no easy answers. Men go through this stuff as well. Dating is not for the feint of heart


 
The part I was more worried about was that at there was something wrong with me / being with me wasn't as nice as his imagination said it would be and it's knocked my confidence a bit!


If he's a player or scared of being hurt, I guess that's easier for me to live with because it doesn't feel quite as personal. Like I don't want to feel like the girl who was only worth sex once and you need a better one for a relationship.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Making a man wait 3 months doesn't put you in the marriage box, it puts you in the gate keeper / game player box. That's why good men dropped like flies.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Gate keeper, I can agree with. Can you elaborate on the game playing? That I don't understand.

And I'll never know if they were good men in general, maybe they were, but they weren't good for me. This is what OP needs to be clear on with her own version of boundaries.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Sophie55 said:


> The part I was more worried about was that at there was something wrong with me / being with me wasn't as nice as his imagination said it would be and it's knocked my confidence a bit!
> 
> 
> If he's a player or scared of being hurt, I guess that's easier for me to live with because it doesn't feel quite as personal. Like I don't want to feel like the girl who was only worth sex once and you need a better one for a relationship.


Nah I have been with those who were essentially one night stands even though it was drawn out over a few dates, they don't play out this way. This is very very very unlikely about you and all about him.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Satya said:


> Gate keeper, I can agree with. Can you elaborate on the game playing? That I don't understand.


I know you didn't ask me but I agree with his sentiment. To me placing a rule on when we have sex, whatever arbitrary number you come up with, screams controlling , manipulative, and using sex as a tool. 

I am all for people moving slow or at their own pace just not hard and fast timelines imposed.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> I know you didn't ask me but I agree with his sentiment. To me placing a rule on when we have sex, whatever arbitrary number you come up with, screams controlling , manipulative, and using sex as a tool.
> 
> I am all for people moving slow or at their own pace just not hard and fast timelines imposed.


OK, that helps. Thanks. 

Perhaps my 3 month requirement I think of as less of a hard deadline and more of a guideline, for me. It's not like I'd say, "I won't have sex with you untili 3 months", rather I'd up front state that it takes me a while to feel ready and if at any time he thinks things are moving too slowly he can take his leave with no hard feelings and no further bother from me.

I was pretty crystal clear with every man I dated and they were independent and free to leave if it's not what they wanted. I had amazing fun during my dating experience overall and my dates appeared to as well. 

I do not need to or want to control anyone, so personally I don't agree with the controlling part because that's simply not where I come from. However, I can see how it might be interpreted that way.

Eta: sorry to t/j, back to OP...


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Wolf1974 said:


> To me placing a rule on when we have sex, whatever arbitrary number you come up with, screams controlling , manipulative, and using sex as a tool.


this is how I have always felt, but now I don't know.

I never want to feel humiliated and used again, but also don't want to game play. 

I try and have honest conversations with people but it is very difficult when they lie!


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Yeswecan said:


> My BIL who is divorced and dating said after the 3rd date if nothing sexually is happening he moves on. Hmmmm....maybe why he is single. :|


Being female it may be different. I don't think I've ever been on a 4th date without sex. I've had a total of 6 serious marriage proposals​ and 2 offers to live together in a marriage lite situation. 

When DH and I had our first date we made out. 2nd date we got down to underthings. I was sexually frustrated and wondering WTF. If he hadn't put out on our 3rd date, I would have assumed he was either LD or just not into me and there wouldn't have been a 4th date or a marriage and family.



Sophie55 said:


> I also talked to him a lot about the death of my husband 4 years ago


 Some people don't want to "compete" with the memory of a deceased spouse.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

Sophie55 said:


> I know women go through this kind of story a lot, but I like to think I am an intelligent woman (35) who runs a company and is a good judge of character (normally!). I get asked out _a lot,_ but am really selective, trying to only choose men who seem compatible and also honest, kind and good people.
> 
> I met a man through online dating (41). We both have very busy careers and similar backgrounds / objectives so on paper this was a great match.
> 
> ...


Maybe he was genuine and was not ready and started to get scared or maybe he just wanted sex you may never know but I guess at least he messaged you and didn't just ignore you, not a reflection of you at all either way it is his issue.

I am ALMOST divorced and its not been as traumatic as his Marriage/Divorce sounded but the thought of jumping into a serious relationship and trusting someone again is pretty terrifying, I would be open to some light dating and just hanging out and having fun and some companionship but if it progressed too fast for me or I felt like the other person wanted more than that initially I think I would pull back also just to not hurt someone else..


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Dating sure is harder than it used to be!


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

Sophie55 said:


> That sounds the most likely scenario so far. Thank you. It did feel, to be honest, like we started a relationship that night and for me that felt wonderful / exciting and for him obviously the opposite.
> 
> As someone said earlier, I guess if someone is a player and has great sex they want to at least keep having it until something new comes along.
> I do think the sex was crazily good and from his response and the ability at age 41 to have in 9 times in 12 hours he obviously enjoyed it too - but in this case instead of wanting more after putting in all the ground work, he ran for the hills because it felt too much like a relationship.


Yikes! Maybe he ran out of his years supply of Viagra!!


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I'm a man, and as stated I thought sex on the second date was right back when I was dating. But I have to say I can't see how a woman wanting to wait can be interpreted as controlling.

She wants to control her own body, I suppose. I like to think if a girl I was interested in had said she would like to have sex but wanted to wait to make sure I wasn't playing games with her that I would have been fine with that.

I'm certain I would not have seen it as controlling. 

It may have made her more intriguing. As long as she didn't say she just wasn't interested in sex.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

WilliamM said:


> I'm a man, and as stated I thought sex on the second date was right back when I was dating. But I have to say I can't see how a woman wanting to wait can be interpreted as controlling.
> 
> She wants to control her own body, I suppose. I like to think if a girl I was interested in had said she would like to have sex but wanted to wait to make sure I wasn't playing games with her that I would have been fine with that.
> 
> ...


Controlling? I agree...not controlling. I would venture a guess some see sex as just sex. Others require an emotional connection before consideration of sex. The OP here had an emotional connection. My BIL dated one chick just one day and received oral after the date was done. She never returned. It was just sex or a thank you BJ. Who knows. I know this...I would not be looking for a second date from that chick. How many thank you's has she completed on all the previous dates before my BIL?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I wouldn't worry about that, it sounded like you both enjoyed it. 

It could be as simple as his being a player. He could also be emotionally damaged by his previous relationship and got frightened off by getting too close.

It could also be that he enjoyed being with you, that there was no *plan* to have sex, it was something both of you desired and enjoyed. Afterwards though when he was thinking more clearly he may have realized that you were not compatible in the long term. 

A woman I dated long ago was like that. We got along very well, had great sex, and enjoyed each other's company. We just were not compatible long term. She broke up with me - but I completely understood that it was for the best for both of us. 






Sophie55 said:


> The part I was more worried about was that at there was something wrong with me / being with me wasn't as nice as his imagination said it would be and it's knocked my confidence a bit!
> 
> 
> If he's a player or scared of being hurt, I guess that's easier for me to live with because it doesn't feel quite as personal. Like I don't want to feel like the girl who was only worth sex once and you need a better one for a relationship.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Yeah, I think that's it. I felt strong attraction and emotional connection.

We had a talk and I said to him I was fine with having sex early as it's a good gauge of chemistry and it felt right, if you enjoy it and the time together you do it again and then see what progresses. We agreed on the basics beforehand so he could have been more honest but maybe his brain wasn't doing the thinking. 

He seemed practically frothing at the mouth, so maybe it was the sex motivating him to spend time with me.

I had sex with my husband in the hallway of hotel on the day we met. We ended up married.

I usually wait until I feel trust / comfortable / connection and sometimes that's longer, sometimes shorter. I do feel like I am in two minds on this sex issue. I don't want to have to "motivate" a man to spend time and get to know me by witholding sex like he is a child. I'd prefer a more mature/ emotionally worthy man who didn't make that necessary in the first place but like you all said maybe this is not the real world.

I am 1000% sure if I hadn't had sex with him that night we'd be having a 5th date, but then maybe I am glad I didn't invest further in him.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I wouldn't worry about that, it sounded like you both enjoyed it.
> 
> It could be as simple as his being a player. He could also be emotionally damaged by his previous relationship and got frightened off by getting too close.
> 
> ...


I'm certain he had a plan to have sex that night. He said he'd not been able to think of anything else the past few days. I do think his thinking was affected by the amount he wanted to have sex with me. I actually don't think I have ever seen a human being look or seem more excited to sleep with me. His eyes were like saucers on every date, he wanted to touch me at every opportunity, even my fingers. He took the wrong exit on the way to see me and had to detour 20 minutes because he'd said he was just so excited.

strange man, no question.

I came away from the date feeling he was way more into me than I was to him, but definitely feeling warmth and connection. the whole thing shocked me.

Maybe it was my caesarian scar or something like that!! or my morning no-makeup face. My son says this is the stuff of horror movies.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Sophie55 said:


> I know women go through this kind of story a lot, but I like to think I am an intelligent woman (35) who runs a company and is a good judge of character (normally!). I get asked out _a lot,_ but am really selective, trying to only choose men who seem compatible and also honest, kind and good people.
> 
> I met a man through online dating (41). We both have very busy careers and similar backgrounds / objectives so on paper this was a great match.
> 
> ...


You said, "he had a horrible marriage and he seemed to be very much still quite upset and angry about it"

Key word was STILL. He is hurting. He is out trying to find a way to not hurt. He found you. 

Stay cordial. Tell him you had a great time. That you are there to talk to if he likes and you realize he isn't ready for a relationship. Maybe in time he will be. If you guys hit it off as well as you say (I think you can trust your gut), then he might be calling in a few days/weeks.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

Sounds to me that once you had sex, his feelings for you became stronger and this scared him. He pulled away because he is afraid to be that close to a woman again. The more he cares about you, the more vulnerable he feels.

It sucks for both of you, but try not to personalize it. It's not your scars or your morning breath. There are a lot of people walking around with deep emotional wounds lurking below the surface. You may have found one. Don't let that get you down.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Sophie55 said:


> Why does a man behave like this?


He probably is only looking to sleep around with various women or he has recently become more serious with another lady that he is dating.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

No way to know for sure, but I think its very unlikely. 

He may just have realized that he wasn't ready for anything permanent. Difficult to know. 



Sophie55 said:


> snip
> 
> Maybe it was my caesarian scar or something like that!! or my morning no-makeup face. My son says this is the stuff of horror movies.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Nobody here knows this man's state of mind. Yes, he could be a player, a wounded man getting over a bad marriage. He could even just be someone who doesn't want a relationship and didn't know it until this one was hatching.

I would not say he was using you for sex. I think you enjoyed yourself so that's not really fair.

Your intent was to not have sex unless the potential for a relationship was there. And it was.

He deciding to not pursue things is no reflection on you, your desirability, nada.

Chalk it up to dating in 2017.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Sophie55 said:


> I'm certain he had a plan to have sex that night. He said he'd not been able to think of anything else the past few days. I do think his thinking was affected by the amount he wanted to have sex with me. I actually don't think I have ever seen a human being look or seem more excited to sleep with me. His eyes were like saucers on every date, he wanted to touch me at every opportunity, even my fingers. He took the wrong exit on the way to see me and had to detour 20 minutes because he'd said he was just so excited.
> 
> strange man, no question.
> 
> ...


It's good to see you are starting to see some humour in this situation.I think this goes back to the old adage that women see sex more emotionally than men.You placed a lot more significance on it than he did.
One thing has struck me though.You had sex nine times in less than twelve hours.Somehow I don't think his sex life has been as rationed as you were led to believe.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Sophie,

Sorry this happened to you, but the guy is a used car salesman and a liar, guys like that like to play the victim to get sympathy from women they are trying to bed. 

They make up stories about how they suffered in previous relationships to establish a common bond with their prey and make an effort to appear like the perfect man. This also gives them an out when they dump you as it wasn't his fault he gets to blame it on prior relationships. 

He can't even admit to the horrible thing he did to you.

Guys like this are basically con men, the con standing for confidence, hes a smaller version of Bernard Madoff.

Do the world a favor track him down and castrate him.

Tamat


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> Outline dating is really skeptical. You'll run into lots of players. I think you let the relationship get physical and progress way too fast. If you decide to continue outline dating, slow things way down even if things seem to be going real good. The players will get bored and move on, leaving you those who are legitimately interested in you.


:iagree:

Great advice, OP, especially if you're looking for a committed relationship.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

What other people have said about this guy sounds plausible to me.

As a woman, regarding sex, if I were dating again, I would want to have sex with the guy I am progressively spending more time with sooner rather than later.

I think too many women get hung up on the thought that men can only use women for sex. When there are a whole lot of things they can use a woman for.

With the guy who did not like giving oral sex, I am convinced that he was looking for a beard. Outside of the bedroom, every body thought he was such a great catch.

Even with my husband, he was avoiding sex with me at one point. I think he was trying to decide between me and his so called friend. Had he dumped me, he could have at least "well, at least I wasn't using you for sex." Even though he was using me, taking up my time and so on for some other reason.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

You've all made me feel better  Less rejected / defective.

I am still not clear in my head on the best time to have sex with someone new or how to weed out or guess someone is going to do this to me again. Maybe I need to have a think and work out what that stage is! 

It's not that I want a relationship with every man, just the potential. If I like him enough to want to have sex, then it means there's potential for me. I understand men have a different view 

I am quite soft / impulsive / gullible which doesn't help.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

I recommend waiting until you're in a loving, committed relationship, if that's what you want. This gives you time to decide if he is someone you want a relationship with and like JB said, it weeds out the guys just patiently waiting for hookup. 

Have you tried meetup groups based on activities you enjoy, instead of dating sites?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Some men become players because they are emotionally shallow, selfish and manipulative a-holes. They care only about their own gratification. 

Then there are men who started out as good decent guys who really wanted long term relationships. They played the field for a while, found women they wanted to settle down with, and got married. But for many of them marriage did not work out and they ended up getting left by their wives or getting cheated on. Sometimes when this happens it can turn an otherwise good man into a flake. He is injured and broken, but the drive for sex and emotional connection is still there, so he satisfies that by going out and snagging women. But once he snags one, the fear sets in and he sees a replay of his broken marriage happening all over again...so he bails. 

I'm thinking this is what happened with OP's boyfriend. The heat was too much and he wasn't ready emotionally to commit to her. And once he couldn't, he probably felt ashamed and unworthy, much like he did when his marriage foundered. It's a vicious cycle. 

Some guys are born players, and some become players by emotional necessity.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I wouldn't worry about how sex affects the situation. It's about whom you are having sex with. It's possible his guy was talking to multiple people and maybe felt guilty or just didn't know how to handle the situation. I have to imagine that, if it were just about the sex, he'd keep you stringing along. Especially after all night and morning sex...


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Sophie55 said:


> You've all made me feel better  Less rejected / defective.
> 
> I am still not clear in my head on the best time to have sex with someone new or how to weed out or guess someone is going to do this to me again. Maybe I need to have a think and work out what that stage is!
> 
> ...


Have sex when YOU want to have sex. 
Don't have sex because you think he wants it. 
Don't have sex because you are worried that he might not call you again if you don't.

Have sex when YOU want it. That way if things don't work out, you won't feel used. He might though!!!


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

I don't think I could decide I wanted a committed relationship with someone before I'd had sex. It's a huggge part of it for me. I don't want mediocre or lacklustre sex for the rest of my life.

As for the other stuff, I'd love to meet men in other ways but admittedly it's hard. I own and run a company in the fashion industry and all the men I meet are gay. I am a single Mother and between those two things I don't really have time to devote to extra curricular activities. I can carve out space in my life for a relationship, if I meet the right guy, but to be honest most days I am racing around trying to get everything done.

I do miss having someone, but to be completely honest, right now I'd settle for someone I liked for a casual relationship where we had one date and week and great sex and anything too much about the long term future is a bit much for me unless I knew someone VERY well. Sorry if that sound really cold, but when you have an ASD child, a company and lost a husband so young it's difficult to feel like you'd change your life around for just anybody.

I miss sex, affection, adult company over a glass of wine and a move and someone to take with me on business trips and all that. Like Elizabeth Bennett said "“I am determined that nothing but the deepest love could ever induce me into matrimony". That's how I feel


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Sophie55 said:


> I don't think I could decide I wanted a committed relationship with someone before I'd had sex. It's a huggge part of it for me. I don't want mediocre or lacklustre sex for the rest of my life.
> 
> As for the other stuff, I'd love to meet men in other ways but admittedly it's hard. I own and run a company in the fashion industry and all the men I meet are gay. I am a single Mother and between those two things I don't really have time to devote to extra curricular activities. I can carve out space in my life for a relationship, if I meet the right guy, but to be honest most days I am racing around trying to get everything done.
> 
> ...


You are preaching to the single parent choir. I look at it like this, I'll have sex with someone whom I think there is potential for a relationship. That usually knocks out the first and probably the second date. I think you managed your situation well, and sometimes you end up with a dud. Do not beat yourself up about this.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Sophie55 said:


> I don't think I could decide I wanted a committed relationship with someone before I'd had sex. It's a huggge part of it for me. I don't want mediocre or lacklustre sex for the rest of my life.
> 
> In that case, I'd give it at least 60 days. By that point, you'll know if it is headed that way or not, and you can go from there.
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> That's also a possibility.
> 
> Though do players care enough about what other people think of them to offer an apology as to why the relationship will go no further?


Yes, there are players who will give some sort of apology and sob story about why they cannot possibility continue a relationship after they have had sex.

While it could be true that this guy is too damaged and just freaked out after such an intimate date, it's more likely that he's just a player. Any woman who has dated much runs into these sorts of players. Once the get sex, they are gone. Their entire goal is the chase and sex - one time sex.

I agree with the 3 months rule because 99% of players will not wait that long.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chillymorn69 said:


> maybe hes still married!


Yea, like my ex, the doctor, when he was out dating during our marriage. I know that he was not telling some of the women that he was married with a child. I found some letters that made this clear.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Yea, like my ex, the doctor, when he was out dating during our marriage. I know that he was not telling some of the women that he was married with a child. I found some letters that made this clear.


That's awful. I'm glad for you that you've moved on without him.

This makes another good case for waiting until you know someone better. I'd also caution the OP about being too obvious about your lack of time when meeting dates. I think women who don't expect much time and attention from a guy they're dating/sleeping with can also set themselves up for attracting men who are living a secret second life. I know an attractive, successful woman in her 30s who dated a guy long-distance for over a year before finding out that he was married with a new baby. She noticed a tan line on his ring finger while they were in bed. Living on opposite coasts and her busy career made it ideal for him.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Sure Jessica, it's good advice, but time wise I could probably carve out a night a week for a social activity and go a year without meeting anyone date-worthy. Men in my age bracket who I am attracted to are hard to come by, I am sure online dating is a full of jerks but it is also an efficient way to at least meet people when you're time-short.

All of that said, you're totally right and these guys have 5 - 6 nights a week home alone to spend trawling women and for people like me, a night away from my kid is a big deal. I try not to give my time away so easily because that's also valuable to me. 

I really do miss sex so badly, and the affection side of things, but also don't enjoy having it with a guy that turns out to be a jerk, so I can't look back on this and feel positive. 

Hopefully, anyway, the right guy will come along and I will get better at navigating all this.

With hindsight, I think if I'd made this guy wait for sex for there months he would have romanced me for three months and done the same thing. It was just how he was. Anyone who romances you for a month, has a wonderful night with great sex with you and runs was probably going to do it after two months or three months. I guess all that would have ended differently was that maybe I'd have avoided sex with him. He still would have wasted my precious time though!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Sophie55 said:


> That sounds the most likely scenario so far. Thank you. It did feel, to be honest, like we started a relationship that night and for me that felt wonderful / exciting and for him obviously the opposite.
> 
> As someone said earlier, I guess if someone is a player and has great sex they want to at least keep having it until something new comes along.
> I do think the sex was crazily good and from his response and the ability at age 41 to have in 9 times in 12 hours he obviously enjoyed it too - but in this case instead of wanting more after putting in all the ground work, he ran for the hills because it felt too much like a relationship.


If he is a player, that date not only led to great sex. It also led to a level of non-sexual intimacy that a player will seek to avoid. Players want sex, not non-sexual intimacy. So, he ended your ‘relationship’ because it had become intimate on a level that he does not want to engage in.

Plus, you might not be the only woman he is seeing and having great sex with.

I don’t think it does you a lot of good trying to guess why he did what he did. Accept his actions at face value. You gave him a lot during that date, not just sex, but a lot on non-sexual intimacy. You let him very close. And his reaction was to reject you. Just accept that at face value.

When I was younger, my friends and I dated a lot. I saw a lot of guys do this to my friends who let the relationship turn to sex quickly. It’s so common that we used to joke to not have sex with the guy because clearly sex makes men evaporate, disappear.

Accept his actions at face value. He does not want a relationship with you. He was wrong to let things get to the point they did and then split. Either way you know now that this is not a guy to have a relationship with. 

Stop trying to second guess all this.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

My feeling is that dating should be fun and not goal oriented. Go out with people who's company you enjoy and not those that you don't

Do what you feel like when you feel like it. If you feel like sex at a particular time, then go for it. If not, don't. If you both enjoy the sex, then no one is being used. 

You will eventually find someone where you both continue to enjoy your time together and things will naturally move towards a long term relationship.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> That's awful. I'm glad for you that you've moved on without him.
> 
> This makes another good case for waiting until you know someone better. I'd also caution the OP about being too obvious about your lack of time when meeting dates. I think women who don't expect much time and attention from a guy they're dating/sleeping with can also set themselves up for attracting men who are living a secret second life. I know an attractive, successful woman in her 30s who dated a guy long-distance for over a year before finding out that he was married with a new baby. She noticed a tan line on his ring finger while they were in bed. Living on opposite coasts and her busy career made it ideal for him.


I am also sorry Eligirl 

When I very first started online dating I met a man who catfished me for several months. He came to me on the end of my grief over my husband's death and provided a comfort / emotional support and affection to me and I did notice he behaved strangely but he always had an explanation. After many months I found out he was:

a) married
b) had another woman he also lived with and she was pregnant
c) neither of these women knew about the other one 
d) the name he gave me was not real and neither were any of the details of his life.

In ALL my time dating these past few years, this guy was 100% the one I was most emotionally close to, and the closest I came to being in love and he was lying to me the entire time about basically everything. 

There is nothing so strange as the lengths people go to in order to fulfil their own selfish needs at the expense of others.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

Sophie55 said:


> I don't think I could decide I wanted a committed relationship with someone before I'd had sex. It's a huggge part of it for me. I don't want mediocre or lacklustre sex for the rest of my life.
> 
> As for the other stuff, I'd love to meet men in other ways but admittedly it's hard. I own and run a company in the fashion industry and all the men I meet are gay. I am a single Mother and between those two things I don't really have time to devote to extra curricular activities. I can carve out space in my life for a relationship, if I meet the right guy, but to be honest most days I am racing around trying to get everything done.
> 
> ...


Sounds like he missed out then and Bailed too quickly, you will find someone better to share your time with :smile2:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Sophie55 said:


> Thanks William. Honestly, if I had the choice, I prefer to have sex early. I think it's more natural to just go with what feels right and because it's a HUGE part of the relationship I also want to establish that it works before I get to know someone. Unfortunately - you're right. Facts are you do need to weed out the wheat from the chaff a little and waiting a while before sex makes sense.
> 
> I can't say I want a relationship, I just want a relationship with the right guy. I want it all to feel right, to work for me and make my life better and be fun and exciting and it's not that easy to find. If men wanted to have sex but ALSO get to know you, that would be awesome, but I wonder if the online dating culture has made that impossible. Sometimes they are just so spoiled for choice they are looking for the next, best thing the entire time and they could meet the absolute perfect woman but don't take the time to get to know her.
> 
> *I dislike playing games, and with-holding sex always felt like that to me. Maybe I need to change and wise-up*


I don't think that waiting about 3 months to have sex is a game and it's not withholding sex. It's simply a woman protecting herself. We all should have boundaries. This is a healthy boundary.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Sophie55 said:


> Sure Jessica, it's good advice, but time wise I could probably carve out a night a week for a social activity and go a year without meeting anyone date-worthy. Men in my age bracket who I am attracted to are hard to come by, I am sure online dating is a full of jerks but it is also an efficient way to at least meet people when you're time-short.
> 
> If you pick the right co-ed group, I bet you'd meet someone sooner than a year. What about a fitness group? Do you like to run, or do crossfit? You could get the exercise AND meet guys at the same time. Are you looking for a guy in his 40s-50s? Are you in a populated area?
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Making a man wait 3 months doesn't put you in the marriage box, it puts you in the gate keeper / game player box. That's why good men dropped like flies.


I find the 3 date rule ridiculous. On one had some of the guys here say that if they don't get sex by the 3rd date they dump her. And on the other hand they want a woman women a low number of sexual partners.

I thought that sex was suppose to be something special. Having sex with every guy who a woman as 3 dates with would up a woman's number of sex partners quite a bit.

After 3 dates, a woman does not know a guy well enough to share things like her bank balance. But you expect her to have sex with you, the most intimate thing a person can do?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I maybe the contrarian here, but it wouldn't be the first time. OP, the sex you had was consensual. You were not used, you wanted it just as much as he did. So the first thing you need to do is get over "feeling violated". As others have said, this may just be a case of this guy getting in to deep too soon and it spooked him out. I know as a guy I have been there before. Rather than feel like a victim, why not try to learn from the experience and think about what lesson you can take from it. Maybe, just maybe, you jumped in too hard and too fast yourself. Hence your disappointment that the relationship fell apart after 4 dates? So, you might hold back emotionally the next time before diving in head first? Maybe you just needed laid yourself, and now you are feeling the guilt that many women are conditioned to feel (such as by those women on TAM who scold you for not waiting 90 days and giving it away too early). I don't know it is for you to decide. For you to figure it out. You can either play the victim and look for sympathy or you can accept what happened and learn from it. Given that you seem to be in control of your life in other ways. I am betting you will end up fine. Don't succumb to the "**** shaming" other women like to visit upon their sisters. Sex is a gift from God, enjoy it when you can and don't feel guilty about it.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Sophie55 said:


> I am also sorry Eligirl
> 
> When I very first started online dating I met a man who catfished me for several months. He came to me on the end of my grief over my husband's death and provided a comfort / emotional support and affection to me and I did notice he behaved strangely but he always had an explanation. After many months I found out he was:
> 
> ...


Did you meet with him in person? To me, this is where high expectations and strong personal boundaries come in. This guy was a predator. I bet he knew you were short on time and distracted with the demands of raising a child with ASD and a full-time career. He knew you had no one screening him. 

It's certainly not your fault, nor is it your fault this guy ran off quickly after sex. I do want to give you the perspective that you need protections in place, which is why group settings and other women to help screen on your behalf, or at least check out the guy first before you get involved, can be so helpful.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

All true Jessica.

I think in my mid thirties I am probably looking for a guy in his early 40s who already has kids (I don't want more). I don't think I'd date a guy in his 50s because I act a lot younger than I am most of the time. I am looking for that elusive, 40 year old, solvent, mentally stable, non-emotionally-broken dude. It's like the unicorn  Like you say..I am sure love will find me.

I am actually even not adverse to a hookup to be honest, but just in the basis that it's agreed, rather than I feel hoodwinked.

If it makes sense, remember that scene in Pretty Woman where she gets all dressed up for the races and Stucky tries to pay her for sex? Ha, it's kind of like that. Casual sex I can live with - but it really angered me that someone got it from me on the pretences of something else. I'd like it to be my decision, not to feel manipulated and foolish.

Yeah, dating when I was younger was easier, but I think that back then I just spent more time with men and had more single friends. I met met through friends or at work and it was just nicer. the only time men ever tried to get me into bed was in a bar, not over dinner, so times have changed now. Also...sorry to say...a lot of men in the dating pool at this age are definitely a little damaged. There's not quite so much innocence on either side.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

Sophie55 said:


> I
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So basically, you had a series of dates, you invited him to your house, you had consensual sex with him repeatedly, he stayed the night and left in the morning.

You feel violated!?!? 
You are veering dangerously into "if I regret it the next day it was rape" victimhood attention-seeking nonsense thinking.

You were horny. You were attracted to him (good looking, high status as a doctor) and you invited him into your home for the express purposes of having sex with him. 

Unless you got yourself drunk you were consenting to everything.

It doesn't sound like you had made explicit your requirements around the relationship before you banged him. You didn't have any future dates planned, you didn't have any verbal agreements on exclusivity or explicit expectations of future behaviors discussed.

It sounds like you had some hopes in your head that you didn't actually discuss with him before you had sex. Which means you valued the certainty of getting laid, over the risk of having some discussion about relationship and future first, and him turning you down and you not getting to have sex with him.


So you had some fun dates with an attractive high status guy that ended in good sex, exactly as you wanted. I don't think you should be complaining too much. Next time maybe decide in your head what you really want before you have sex.

A specific tactical move for you next time would be to first have solid plans for something the following weekend (tickets to summer festival, theater etc.) when you invite the guy over for sex. 

So you then get to sleep with the guy with the explicit knowledge that you're both expecting to hang out together again for another future date.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Did you meet with him in person? To me, this is where high expectations and strong personal boundaries come in. This guy was a predator. I bet he knew you were short on time and distracted with the demands of raising a child with ASD and a full-time career. He knew you had no one screening him.
> 
> It's certainly not your fault, nor is it your fault this guy ran off quickly after sex. I do want to give you the perspective that you need protections in place, which is why group settings and other women to help screen on your behalf, or at least check out the guy first before you get involved, can be so helpful.


Oh yes, we met in person. He knew I was grieving and probably saw that vulnerability that made me a target. He was so clever about it, even making up stories of his own recent tragic losses to make me feel close to him. I only found out by accident when he sent me a text message which was a screenshot of our conversation (like, here's what you said earlier) and I noticed he had me in his phone as "Sophie <insert his name>" as if he was reminding himself of the name he used on me. I then got suspicious and called his office and was told no one by that name ever worked there. I then traced his phone number and email using Spokeo and found a few pictures of his dogs on an image site but with a different name. I then googled that name and found the "real" him, complete with wife! He literally made up an entire life and fake identity complete with linkedin, facebook, everything. The lengths he went to were really shocking!

So I am careful now. but obviously even that doesn't help.

Last summer I dated a guy for 3 months and it was all going well. He invited me on vacation with him and I couldn't go due to childcare and he took someone else! The whole dating thing is CRAZY. People seem so nice, but there's so many genuinely terrible people out there.

I have met some nice ones too though, and made friends along the way.

One thing I find about the ones who are nice /serious is that they always want to meet my friends and go to family events with me. the ones who are going to cheat /act badly are always trying to avoid that.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

MartinBeck said:


> So basically, you had a series of dates, you invited him to your house, you had consensual sex with him repeatedly, he stayed the night and left in the morning.
> 
> You feel violated!?!?
> You are veering dangerously into "if I regret it the next day it was rape" victimhood attention-seeking nonsense thinking.
> ...



Mmm...not sure I agree with you there.

If you went to buy a car tomorrow and they took you on a test drive and it was all amazing with leather seats and you bought the car only to find when it arrived it had a different engine and holes in the seats, you might have bought the car but you did so under the impression you were getting one thing and you got another. 

If I had known his mindset, I wouldn't have had sex with him, and while I leave room for people to change their mind or get scared, I do also think responsible adults have an obligation to be transparent with people they have sex with to enable them to make healthy emotional choices for themselves.

Speaking plainly, he's a doctor, he's handsome, he's tall, he's rich - if he wants casual sex go to a bar and find someone else who wants the same. I was expressly clear with this guy I _didn't _want casual sex, so if he didn't want a to pursue the possibility of dating and relationships he (a) should get off the dating site and (b) shouldn't date and (c) shouldn't have sex with people like me who are genuinely looking.

I accept some responsibility for trusting in someone I barely knew, but at the end of the day if I had known the truth I wouldn't have done it and from a moral perspective I am dubious about the practice of misleading others in order to get anything, much less something as intimate as sex. So yes, that was a violation for me.

you can't just go around saying and doing whatever, sleeping with nice women and running and then saying she got what she deserved. good people are mean to be better than that!


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Sophie55 said:


> Oh yes, we met in person. He knew I was grieving and probably saw that vulnerability that made me a target. He was so clever about it, even making up stories of his own recent tragic losses to make me feel close to him. I only found out by accident when he sent me a text message which was a screenshot of our conversation (like, here's what you said earlier) and I noticed he had me in his phone as "Sophie <insert his name>" as if he was reminding himself of the name he used on me. I then got suspicious and called his office and was told no one by that name ever worked there. I then traced his phone number and email using Spokeo and found a few pictures of his dogs on an image site but with a different name. I then googled that name and found the "real" him, complete with wife! He literally made up an entire life and fake identity complete with linkedin, facebook, everything. The lengths he went to were really shocking!
> 
> So I am careful now. but obviously even that doesn't help.
> 
> ...


WOW- unbelievable. :surprise:

Sounds like you're on the right track with noticing that nice guys are interested in joining you for events with friends. I'm sure you will meet the right person, it just takes time. Good for you for investigating that jerk when your gut told you something was off.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Sophie,

Given the large number of women this guy has done this to please get tested for STDs.

Tamat


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

MartinBeck said:


> So basically, you had a series of dates, you invited him to your house, you had consensual sex with him repeatedly, he stayed the night and left in the morning.
> 
> You feel violated!?!?
> You are veering dangerously into "if I regret it the next day it was rape" victimhood attention-seeking nonsense thinking.
> ...


Her post didn't read this way to me at all. Many women would feel used if a guy who was showing interest in them for a month stopped right after having sex. In no way does she have to pretend to be cool with this- (most but not all) women would not be. 

Most-but-not-all women do not have sex to relieve an urge. We feel desire for a man who we feel an emotional connection with, despite what online porn stars have led many men to believe. The horny woman who wants nothing more than to get laid is not reality, even though many of us LOVE having fun with men we are emotionally connected to.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I find the 3 date rule ridiculous. On one had some of the guys here say that if they don't get sex by the 3rd date they dump her. And on the other hand they want a woman women a low number of sexual partners.
> 
> I thought that sex was suppose to be something special. Having sex with every guy who a woman as 3 dates with would up a woman's number of sex partners quite a bit.
> 
> After 3 dates, a woman does not know a guy well enough to share things like her bank balance. But you expect her to have sex with you, the most intimate thing a person can do?


I think the vast majority of people know if they want to sleep with someone after the first or second date. If it hasn't happened by the 3rd or 4th date then the list of possible reasons is pretty short and mostly bad, so I figure you're mostly wasting time with anything beyond that.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

I think all we have to do is read the OP's first post to see why many women would choose to hold out longer than 3-4 dates, even if she did feel enough of an attraction to want to. 

And to me, any guy who is willing to drop a quality woman because she won't have sex with him by the 3rd date is not a keeper.

Most women look for quality in a partner, and that is often demonstrated by how much care and interest he shows her. I can list quite a few gorgeous women who married not-as-physically-attractive men because they met her needs for intimate conversation, affection, and companionship. Sex is often NOT a top need for most women the way it is for a lot of men.

Men and women are different.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> I don't think that waiting about 3 months to have sex is a game and it's not withholding sex. It's simply a woman protecting herself. We all should have boundaries. This is a healthy boundary.


While I agree with you in theory this probably won't work in the OP's favor. The really great guys have lots of other opportunities to pick from and won't wait around for her. It's a simple supply/demand curve. Instead she should just make sure that she doesn't do things that she might regret. 

I'm in the "great guy" category and I can vouch for there being lots of choices. It's a total flip from being in your 20's when the women have the upper hand.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Is it this...???

FOR MOST WOMEN

I like his personality + I find him physically attractive = I want to sleep with him, spend time with him and get to know him with the potential of a relationship growing.

FOR MOST MEN

I find her physically attractive = I want to sleep with her

If it's that, then I think I am getting it wrong because I am assuming that because a man REALLY wants to sleep with me /talk to me / spend time with me that it means he is seeing the same potential for a relationship as me, when he might have already clawed me out as fling material!


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Jessica38 said:


> I think all we have to do is read the OP's first post to see why many women would choose to hold out longer than 4 dates.
> 
> And to me, any guy who is willing to drop a quality woman because she won't have sex with him by the 3rd date is not a keeper.


The guy won't know if the woman is a keeper that early in the relationship so he's not risking anything. He'll just know whether he enjoys spending time with her, whether they have chemistry, and whether he is/isn't getting laid. Plus, the really great guys don't think that the boundaries apply to them (because they are used to women being so into them that they don't actually enforce those boundaries). Just sayin'....


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> While I agree with you in theory this probably won't work in the OP's favor. The really great guys have lots of other opportunities to pick from and won't wait around for her. It's a simple supply/demand curve. Instead she should just make sure that she doesn't do things that she might regret.
> 
> I'm in the "great guy" category and I can vouch for there being lots of choices. It's a total flip from being in your 20's when the women have the upper hand.


All the more reason to wait, IMO. Who wants to be 1 of several a guy is banging in a week? :scratchhead:

I'd much rather wait for a guy to show me he wants to date exclusively, which is likely NOT going to happen after 3 dates if he's in such high demand. 

Let the other women relieve his urge.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> While I agree with you in theory this probably won't work in the OP's favor. The really great guys have lots of other opportunities to pick from and won't wait around for her. It's a simple supply/demand curve. Instead she should just make sure that she doesn't do things that she might regret.
> 
> I'm in the "great guy" category and I can vouch for there being lots of choices. It's a total flip from being in your 20's when the women have the upper hand.


That's how I think it is too.

Do you find because there is so much choice you feel less inclined to invest in one woman?

And when you do choose to actually pursue a relationship with one woman when there's so much choice, what is it that makes that choice for you?


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Sophie55 said:


> Is it this...???
> 
> FOR MOST WOMEN
> 
> ...


I wouldn't generalize. There's no hard and fast rule. I know guys that jump head first into relationships, others that avoid them, and everything in between. All that it means is that you and the Dr. were not on the same page with your relationship goals.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> I wouldn't generalize. There's no hard and fast rule. I know guys that jump head first into relationships, others that avoid them, and everything in between. All that it means is that you and the Dr. were not on the same page with your relationship goals.



Yah, I get that. My goal was to find someone regular, to get off online dating and have someone to spend Saturday night with. He wasn't actually looking for that so it diminished my chances from the get-go


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

I used to argue the three date rule or on to the next if no action.

as a more mature man I feel different.I mean I wouldn't refuse a woman that wants to get busy but I wouldn't push it either. I don't think I would have a time frame for it when it happens it happens. obviously there a limit I ain't going to wait a year.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> I don't think that waiting about 3 months to have sex is a game and it's not withholding sex. It's simply a woman protecting herself. We all should have boundaries. This is a healthy boundary.


To Sophie55

When I started dating Mary she had waited 11 months while I had another girlfriend. So we knew each other almost a year.

However, even with that had she felt the need to wait in order to be sure I wasn't trying to just use her I am sure I would not have considered it a game. Just be open about why you are doing it, and I would hope, expect, any reasonable guy would be fine with the decision. He definitely should not think you are playing a game. I just can't see a problem as long as he knows the reason you want to wait is to protect yourself and not because you are some dried up prune who just doesn't want to do it.

Hey, remember that edging thread? He could imagine you getting hotter and hotter, wetter and wetter, so randy for him, but waiting so you can be sure he isn't some flake.

I just think that's a pretty cool image. Not a game. Fun. Well, it should be considered fun. I would consider it fun.

Edit: I have always enjoyed challenges though. Being tested is fun. If she had said she was horny for me, but wanted to test me to be sure I was Mr. Right, wow would I have been up for that. I guess some people think I am a bit crazy in how much fun I think being tested is.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Jessica38 said:


> All the more reason to wait, IMO. Who wants to be 1 of several a guy is banging in a week? :scratchhead:
> 
> I'd much rather wait for a guy to show me he wants to date exclusively, which is likely NOT going to happen after 3 dates if he's in such high demand.
> 
> Let the other women relieve his urge.


Not necessarily true that he's dating multiples in a week just because he has the opportunity. I know it's hard for me to agree to exclusivity with a woman early in a relationship, but I only date one at a time regardless of whether we are "exclusive" or not. But, if we aren't having hot sex pretty quickly then I just figure we lack chemistry and I lose interest. 



Sophie55 said:


> That's how I think it is too.
> 
> Do you find because there is so much choice you feel less inclined to invest in one woman?
> 
> And when you do choose to actually pursue a relationship with one woman when there's so much choice, what is it that makes that choice for you?


I'm not less inclined to invest in a woman. It just means I move slowly and take my time deciding whether I want a relationship with them. It also means that I'm not afraid to end a relationship if I don't think I'll be satisfied with it. 

I look for a woman that I can have fun and be myself with, and one that is willing to let the relationship unfold at its natural speed. I don't worry about the sex aspect because it's always plentiful and good since I don't date people that I don't have a lot of chemistry with.

EDIT: I should have mentioned that for a guy to commit you have to be the right woman at the right time. The right woman at the wrong time or the wrong woman at the right time makes it unlikely that he'll want a relationship with you. So don't fault yourself because you can't control those things in him.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Sophie55 said:


> You've all made me feel better  Less rejected / defective.
> 
> I am still not clear in my head on the best time to have sex with someone new or how to weed out or guess someone is going to do this to me again. Maybe I need to have a think and work out what that stage is!
> 
> ...


Don't overthink it.

You had sex with your husband in the hallway of a hotel the night you met. That worked out pretty well! You waited a month to have sex with this guy - it didn't work out. Goes to show there's no real formula for any of this.

Just have sex when you feel you want to have sex with someone, it's that simple. Sometimes it'll work out, sometimes it won't. Don't sweat it. Sex is obviously important to you, in terms of matching up with someone, so it's all part of the dating landscape.

At the end of the day, nobody escapes dating without being hurt. We've all been played by people (men and women alike), we've all been dumped or rejected, many have been cheated on, etc etc etc. You can't protect yourself from any of this, unfortunately. You can minimize the chances of it happening, to be sure, but that usually comes at a cost. In some cases, potentially losing out on 'good' matches.

When it comes to dating, there's no good, or right, way to do it. You like somebody, you go out with them. If you have fun, you do it again. If you want to progress to sex, progress to sex. If you don't, then don't.

I guess the only rule I can think of when it comes to dating is to not do anything if you feel pressure to do it, or if you think it's necessary, or "time". If it doesn't feel right, don't. If it does, then do it.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Wow, I want to emphasize that no one here is s--t - shaming the OP! 

We are sharing reasons why we believe she may be hurting. IME most of my women friends who have had similar experiences moved rather fast. The power of observation tells me that once they slowed down, they were finding more compatible men and were happier. 

She has her own set of boundaries, no one is jamming them down her throat, but offering opinions. She's free to ignore or take them on board. 

If she chooses to have sex in 2 dates, 4, 10, or 50, it's her choice. I think that earlier @MJJEAN made an interesting point about sex being important to her for vetting a date (hope I got that right). I never thought of vetting in that way but it makes sense as it's a priority for her. It sounds like it's important to @Sophie55 as well. If you care about sex then you want a good sexual partner. For me, the strong emotional connection and trust over time makes for better sex than without such a connection. Difference of opinion based on different boundaries and priorities.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

It has been mentioned several times that dating is hard. Or harder than it was when you were younger. It isn't hard or harder than it was, it is just that now you know more and so the choices we make are more involved than when we were younger. There is also that element of "shot clock" ticking off in our heads. Where we imagine we have to score (not talking about sexually scoring here) because we aren't getting any younger, whereas when we were younger we imagined we would never get old. If one goes into thinking dating is harder, it becomes a chore. And chores are generally done as quickly as possible in order the cross that of our lists. Rather I would suggest that you look at dating as an adventure, an opportunity to explore and learn.
Yep you will meet some real turds out there, but guess what those turds exist whether you meet them or not. All you can do is learn from them.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Yeah, Sophie55 sounds like a great person to me.

I feel sorry she ended up feeling hurt. I just want her to know whatever strategy she may adapt, is probably a good strategy.


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

I can't believe all the dating rules people play by! Sophia55 you did everything the way you wanted, met a guy, had a few nice dates, made a connection, had sex. It's unfortunate it didn't work out the way you wanted, but that doesn't mean that suddenly you need to start following some rule book or wondering if you did something wrong. Next time if you feel like sleeping with the guy go ahead and sleep with him, you're a grown ass woman and sex is fun, you should enjoy it! If you don't want to sleep with him so soon then don't, if he heads for the hills so be it, if he sticks around OK then. You just need to keep your eyes open and go with what feels right.

Every dating scenario is different, just like every person you date is different. Sometimes things work out the way you want, sometimes they don't, it doesn't necessarily mean anyone was right or wrong, good or bad, it can simply be not the right thing at that moment in life. 

At least you ended your one year sex drought, that had to be fun! lol (I still can't get over doing it nine times, sure makes me feel inadequate)


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Ynot said:


> It has been mentioned several times that dating is hard. Or harder than it was when you were younger. It isn't hard or harder than it was, it is just that now you know more and so the choices we make are more involved than when we were younger. There is also that element of "shot clock" ticking off in our heads. Where we imagine we have to score (not talking about sexually scoring here) because we aren't getting any younger, whereas when we were younger we imagined we would never get old. If one goes into thinking dating is harder, it becomes a chore. And chores are generally done as quickly as possible in order the cross that of our lists. Rather I would suggest that you look at dating as an adventure, an opportunity to explore and learn.
> Yep you will meet some real turds out there, but guess what those turds exist whether you meet them or not. All you can do is learn from them.


Both my BIL and bother are in the dating scene post divorce. Both have horror stories. Serial daters, drunks, no shows, lunatics. When I listen to them chatter back and forth I'm glad I'm not having to do the same. My brother has a good relationship gong now. Almost a year. My BIL gets about 3 weeks and dumped.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think the vast majority of people know if they want to sleep with someone after the first or second date. If it hasn't happened by the 3rd or 4th date then the list of possible reasons is pretty short and mostly bad, so I figure you're mostly wasting time with anything beyond that.


Finding someone sexually attractive is not one dimensional, at least not for me. And I think not for a lot of women, and probably a lot of men. 

There is a basic sexual attraction that must exist. But there is more beyond that, a lot more. It takes a while to find out about a person.

You can have whatever rules you want in dating. Just as I can have whatever rules I want. 

Like Satya said in one of her posts, the 3-month thing is not a hard and fast rule. It’s more of a guideline that I need to know the guy enough to trust that he’s not just playing me.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Bananapeel said:


> While I agree with you in theory this probably won't work in the OP's favor. The really great guys have lots of other opportunities to pick from and won't wait around for her. It's a simple supply/demand curve. Instead she should just make sure that she doesn't do things that she might regret.
> 
> I'm in the "great guy" category and I can vouch for there being lots of choices. It's a total flip from being in your 20's when the women have the upper hand.


Quality women also have lots of choices. They can keep their own boundaries and still find a quality man who will honor her boundaries.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Interesting Ele. That's not what I've heard from the women I date or my single female friends. They seem to think there is a major shortage of quality guys. But maybe it has to do with what women vs men view as quality.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Andy1001 said:


> Unfortunately you came into contact with a player and once he slept with you he moved on.The only reason he hung on so long was his age,if he had been fifteen years younger he wouldn't have waited so long for sex.There is not much you can do here other than put it behind you and move on.
> At least the sex was good.


Unless other information is revealed, I doubt that he is a "player." Player's don't hang around for 4 dates to hook up. They F and leave as quickly as possible.

My interpretation is that she scared him and triggered some commitment phobia. She said he was still angry about a former bad marriage. I would wager he started to think about her as a long term partner as someone who was marriage material and he said to himself, I am not ready for this, I have to heal myself first before I can marry again.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

I do think the dating pool is weighted a bit differently aged 40 compared to age 20.

For a start you tend to meet less people because so many are married off / have children so you're not doing so many of those activities where you're meeting people, and when you do meet them many have a lot of baggage and issues.

I did find it easier in my 20s.

I have a theory that a large portion of the great men got married and stayed married -not to say all the divorced ones are stinkers but I think statistically there's a higher incidence of them.

I read in an article on attachment theory that people fall into three categories 

(a) anxious attachers (clingy, need someone, fall in love quickly)
(b) secure attachers (normal emotionally)
(c) avoidant attachers (people who fear intimacy and behave in ways to avoid it)

And the article said that in the age bracket I am in, a lot of people fall into category (c) because the first two categories are more likely to have formed good marriages and stayed married, and the latter is more likely to have never married or gotten divorced. I also read people can become category C following a bad marriage or divorce.

I come across a lot of this avoidant behavior dating men in their early 40s. they chase you, desire you, want to have you and a relationship and the moment reality sets in their fear-system activates and they knowingly or unknowingly act in ways to reduce intimacy. Like not calling you after a few great dates, or flirting with someone new on Tinder or avoiding meeting your friends etc. Ultimately their behavior is not conducive to growing a real bond and attachment because on some subconscious level that is a fearful prospect for them.

In many cases, apparently they are so entrenched in this behavior they don't even know they are doing it.

It's happened to me on 4 or 5 separate occasions in the last 3 years that I have been dating someone and all has been going well, and then after a particularly intimate date the guy has disappeared on me. On ALL those occasions, the guy came back 2 weeks or even a year later and told me he really liked me but he had panicked.

I have one guy who did that to me two years ago and I reacted pretty calmly when he pulled the "I don't want a relationship" card on me, and we became friends. We still go for drinks, and he has asked me out again several times and tried for another chance but it was too late. He was a good guy, but I scared him,

I think I can be a bit "scary" like that because if I like someone I totally show it, I cuddle them and I am affectionate and I want to see them and speak to them. I play no games at all, heart totally on sleeve and that can really scare the heck out of men who have fears like this.

Maybe this doctor loved the chase and then when he had me he panicked. 
I don't think they are even aware they do it.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Quality women also have lots of choices. They can keep their own boundaries and still find a quality man who will honor her boundaries.


Based on what I see IRL among the single/divorced women I know, this is 100% true. We have a male friend who is good looking, owns a successful business, and is a catch. He said it is difficult to find a quality woman who enjoys working out and living a healthy lifestyle. He lives in a populated area too. 

He did meet someone like-minded and once he did, he held onto her. They are still going strong and again, he's a great guy who likely had plenty of options. He treats her really well too, from what I've seen in the time we've spent with them.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> Both my BIL and bother are in the dating scene post divorce. Both have horror stories. Serial daters, drunks, no shows, lunatics. When I listen to them chatter back and forth I'm glad I'm not having to do the same. My brother has a good relationship gong now. Almost a year. My BIL gets about 3 weeks and dumped.


Yeah, like none of that ever happened when you were 17? Two things come to mind here. First the only real difference is that now you are aware of those things. Secondly, it sounds like your brother and BIL need to look at the women they are going out with. In the end, we get to decide who we go out. Just because they keep picking losers doesn't make it bad. 
I guess I don't understand the mentality that thinks we are not allowed to make mistakes. If we see some one we must become involved with them. If we sleep with them we must have an LTR.
There are several sayings that come to mind. "It is always darkest before dawn" and "For every high there is a low" are two. All the "duds" we go thru make all of the 'good' dates worthwhile, even more so.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@Sophie55 Here's a PS 

Please do get checked out for STDs, even if he did use condoms.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

Sophie55 said:


> I was expressly clear with this guy I _didn't _want casual sex, so if he didn't want a to pursue the possibility of dating and relationships he (a) should get off the dating site and (b) shouldn't date and (c) shouldn't have sex with people like me who are genuinely looking.




Really? Did you have this conversation before you slept with him, and did he make any real promises that he broke? That wasn't clear from your post.

Or did you maybe think this and hope for it in your head, but not want to risk him saying no so you didn't really get clear expectations and relationship status confirmed by him before you slept with him?

It should be ok for you to admit to yourself that you actually really wanted to sleep with him and were afraid of pushing him for commitment before you landed him in bed.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> @Sophie55 Here's a PS
> 
> Please do get checked out for STDs, even if he did use condoms.


He's a doctor....you think so? Surely he's careful


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

Cooper said:


> I can't believe all the dating rules people play by! Sophia55 you did everything the way you wanted, met a guy, had a few nice dates, made a connection, had sex. It's unfortunate it didn't work out the way you wanted, but that doesn't mean that suddenly you need to start following some rule book or wondering if you did something wrong. Next time if you feel like sleeping with the guy go ahead and sleep with him, you're a grown ass woman and sex is fun, you should enjoy it! If you don't want to sleep with him so soon then don't, if he heads for the hills so be it, if he sticks around OK then. You just need to keep your eyes open and go with what feels right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Exactly!!


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I had a similar thing happen to me. Dated a girl for a month, we had sex, she wigged out and wanted to back off a bit. I'd assume the sex was bad, but we went at it all night long. I think some people just get in over here heads and don't realize the **** storm they can cause.

Don't let it affect your future behavior. Do whatever it is that feels right for you.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Sophie55 said:


> this is how I have always felt, but now I don't know.
> 
> I never want to feel humiliated and used again, but also don't want to game play.
> 
> I try and have honest conversations with people but it is very difficult when they lie!


You have to try and get past this though. You will set YOURSELF up for failure if you blame all men for what one did. Same as my story. My x cheated on me but how would it be fair to blame all women for that? Not all women cheat. 

Instead I recognize some do and move slow. Follow gut instincts. At some level relationships are about risk. If you don't take risk you'll never get to the reward.

Take a break from dating for a few weeks. Dating frustrated only amps the frustration. We have all been there

Good luck to you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Sophie55 said:


> He's a doctor....you think so? Surely he's careful


Doctors are not all careful, they can be rather cavalier in their attitudes.

I take it from your reply that you had unprotected sex?

If so, please do not trust to luck. Get tested, please.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

MattMatt said:


> @Sophie55 Here's a PS
> 
> Please do get checked out for STDs, even if he did use condoms.





Sophie55 said:


> He's a doctor....you think so? Surely he's careful


Um, I just about spit out my drink reading this.

Get tested for STDs. 

Trust nothing anyone says about their lack of exposure. Trust a medical test. Be wise about your health.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

MartinBeck said:


> Really? Did you have this conversation before you slept with him, and did he make any real promises that he broke? That wasn't clear from your post.
> 
> Or did you maybe think this and hope for it in your head, but not want to risk him saying no so you didn't really get clear expectations and relationship status confirmed by him before you slept with him?
> 
> It should be ok for you to admit to yourself that you actually really wanted to sleep with him and were afraid of pushing him for commitment before you landed him in bed.


Not overtly. 

In actions though, he acted like he wanted a relationship. Like by being on a dating site and his profile saying he wanted to meet new friends and maybe more. Like telling me he thought he'd found the perfect girl. Like texting goodmorning every day and goodnight every night and many times throughout the day. Calling to see how my day went. Asking every question about me and my thoughts on stuff. Sharing intimate information and asking about mine. Bringing me flowers. 

I can't explain this very easily, but if you were with me on that date, and saw how sweet it was and all the handholding and snuggling up you'd have thought the guy wanted something more than a one night stand. 

I'm not stupid, I don't invent things in my head, I carefully monitor people's actions /words and all that and I think he behaved in a way that made me feel it was going somewhere and the feeling was mutual.

He had also already asked me on the next date before we had sex. He'd said "next time let's go..." and I said "you're already planning next time?" and he said "of course".

I have had a fair bit of sex and a fair few dates and this was probably the most surprised I have been to find someone wasn't interested in me. I thought the opposite. Not to say I haven't been played before - I have - but the guy didn't snuggle up to me for 14 hours, laughing and stroking my hair and telling me about his childhood.

I wanted to sleep with him if I was going to see him again, I didn't want to sleep with him if it was the last time I'd ever see him. 

Que sera, I was wrong. I don't harbour the guy any ill will.

I honestly wasn't afraid of pushing him for commitment, from the way he was acting I felt that was being freely given to me. I didn't get any sense whatsoever from the guy that he was interested in anything but definitely dating me more. It felt like a given to me, and if I misread that then he has odd ways of communicating how he feels.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> Doctors are not all careful, they can be rather cavalier in their attitudes.
> 
> I take it from your reply that you had unprotected sex?
> 
> If so, please do not trust to luck. Get tested, please.



Yes  I know I am clear - been tested and not had sex in a year.

He told me he hadn't had sex for months and was clear  

I believed him because he's a doctor - and quite a well-known doctor - all over the internet and all that


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You can't get inside someone else's head to know why they did what they did. 

I'm sorry it didn't work out, but I think that will often happen dating until you run into the right person. There may be no fault here at all - things didn't work out, doesn't really matter why.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Bananapeel said:


> While I agree with you in theory this probably won't work in the OP's favor. The really great guys have lots of other opportunities to pick from and won't wait around for her. It's a simple supply/demand curve. Instead she should just make sure that she doesn't do things that she might regret.
> 
> *I'm in the "great guy" category and I can vouch for there being lots of choices. It's a total flip from being in your 20's when the women have the upper hand*.


A lot of women believe that because you can get "it" so easily, they will be the one to pique your interest by being a challenge.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Sophie55 said:


> Yes  I know I am clear - been tested and not had sex in a year.
> 
> He told me he hadn't had sex for months and was clear
> 
> I believed him because he's a doctor - and quite a well-known doctor - all over the internet and all that


He might not be a real doctor or he could have lied about being clear.

Get to an STD clinic and get tested, please.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

He's definitely a real doctor, he's all over the internet etc. Medical articles and he's in the press and stuff.

I will get checked though, because he probably has a more active sex life than he made out.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Sophie55 said:


> He's definitely a real doctor, he's all over the internet etc. Medical articles and he's in the press and stuff.
> 
> I will get checked though, because he probably has a more active sex life than he made out.


Probably.

Have you checked him out on Linkedin? I wonder if he might be more married than he made out, too?


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## Colt_blue (Apr 4, 2017)

I am of the opinion that this is one of the players, and a very experienced one. 

I subscribe to the no sex until in a relationship rule. I don't know how long it takes until we are in a relationship. Whatever long it takes, but it definitely doesn't take 3 dates.

I dated online when I was 41-42 and I went out with over 30 men, I wasn't about to sleep with everyone, or most of them or even a third of them. I've been with my current partner for 3 years now, I met him online and yes, we waited 3 months before having sex. Getting married this July. Like I said, it wasn't a timeline I imposed artificially and he didn't push either, by month 3 we were clearly serious. I had another relationship and before that and it didn't work out, I slept with that guy after about one month, but we were seeing each other more often than my current FI and that guy did push a bit.

If you want to avoid feeling this way, wait until you get to know the person really well. This guy wasn't realtionship material anyway, sex or no sex, someone who's bitter about the ex that way should normally be left alone, he's a time waster.

I am for casual sex, when I know it's casual and I want it to be casual. What I wanted to avoid the most while dating was feeling duped by dishonest men. If it's clear we are having casual sex and we are on the same page I'd feel fine. I'm sure that if you wanted to have casual sex and the guy was honest about it and sex was great, you wouldn't have any issues afterwards.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Just to expand a bit on timeline thing I didn't have time to state earlier. 

Timelines as guidelines are fine just not hard a fast rules. I have been in this situation once where I was interested in a woman and by her claims she was interested in me. As we hit about date 5 or 6 sex was seeming the inevitable. Then I got hit with the 3 month rule, wherever that rule came from, and we were in week three. She stated she was scared of moving too quickly and wanted things slower. I didnt really know how to process this as it was a first for me. My initial reaction was ok maybe I read her wrong and she isn't as interested in me as I am in her. For me sex = exclusive and we were stuck in this limbo so to speak. Still I liked her and wanted to keep seeing her so we agreed to go slow and just date. I certainly respected her opinion on the matter

I also went back to dating others. The why is because while I respected her decision I didn't want to wait months and months for this to finally reveal if we would would become a couple or not. Course the inevitable came and she found out I was dating another so we ended it. I think we both walked away feeling maybe we weren't as important to the other as we thought we were. 

I think this is an area where compatible partners find one another and we just weren't that


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

Sophie55 said:


> Not overtly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So it was a mix of you being hot for him and being DTF and hearing what you wanted to hear, and maybe him being misleading about his intentions to some greater or lesser extent. 

Would you still have slept with him if he had said he wasn't ready for a commitment, or to be exclusive?

Would you be interested in sleeping with him again in a casual "we have good sexual chemistry, let's see each other every few weeks when we have the time and feel the urge" level of relationship?

Honestly, It is weird that he seemed serious about a relationship and then dumped you. If he's an attractive high status doctor in his early 40s and he has any social skills and game he can get laid easily. 

You were a lot of work and time for a one night pump and dump. (Although you're gorgeous and worth it, of course!)


Much harder question for you, and I'm really not trying to be nasty with this: Any sense that he went over to your place serious about the relationship but then after sleeping over, anything that could have given him second thoughts in the morning? Scars, physical abnormalities? House cleanliness issues, hoarding, too many cats? Bad interactions with your kids or anyone else in the house? Hard push from you on locking him down for commitment in the morning?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

/


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

/


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

He's not famous or a celebrity but he's well known in the medical community for being an expert on a specific subject so he's got a lot of press, but nothing the public would recognise. I always google people to make sure their story matches their picture etc. after being catfished once before.

HOWEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I came across him on Tinder this morning, new profile because he'd been on there last month listed as 41 and this time he listed himself as 36!!!!!!!! He actually looks 46 / 47 in real life so maybe he lied to me about his age too. I remember thinking he looked much older than 41.

So CLEARLY, on there to pick up women (and younger women too). Clearly a complete player, and I was taken by one of the best because boy did he have me believing he was sweet. A whole month to get me into bed. What a complete loser this guy is.

The scariest thing of all...I was so shocked, taken aback that I accidentally swiped right on him and we matched!!!!! So some time in the last 24 hours (my profile was hidden until yesterday) he saw me and swiped right on me. WEIRD.

did he not remember he'd ALREADY played me?

Really disgusted by this guy


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Sophie55 said:


> He's not famous or a celebrity but he's well known in the medical community for being an expert on a specific subject so he's got a lot of press, but nothing the public would recognise. I always google people to make sure their story matches their picture etc. after being catfished once before.
> 
> HOWEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


Sophie55, I'm sorry you discovered that. All you can do is learn from the experience.

Maybe take a small break to recuperate, but don't give up on dating. There are good men out there that meet your boundaries. I found one and after 12 years of no dating after my father passed, my mom found one. He won't come flying through the window like superman, but I do believe he's out there. 

I know you really don't want to hear it again, but please follow the previous advice and get STD tested. You need to be your own best friend right now, and a good friend is one who will tell you what you don't want to hear, but need to hear.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Well, I'm glad you discovered that. And I hope you don't think I mean to be negative. Knowledge is power. And, actually I think it'll help you shove it aside.

Be well.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Oh totally William.

Before I thought I'd lost a chance with a great guy and maybe there was something wrong with me.

Now I feel like I sideswiped a complete jerk and won't give him another thought.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Just be thankful he isn't the doctor for you or a relative.

Is he really that doctor or just a look alike?


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Its' definitely him. strange that if he's going to pull this on women he gives his real name!


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Starting to think maybe his marriage sucked and ended because he's a *********....

I've seen too many men who are players crying about their crazy mean ex's and how they can't see their kids, etc, when the reality is the ex was only reacting to piss poor treatment ( cheating, lying, neglect, and more) and the player has been "too busy" to spend regular time with the kids.


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## Colt_blue (Apr 4, 2017)

Aha! So now it's clear! You can figure out how old he really is if you find his CV online, based on his college graduation year. If he's so famous in his field, it means he is established, which, in turn, means he's no spring chicken.

Yes, consider this a lesson learned. Men who are strangers, their words don't mean much until they prove it with action and the time put in. You have to watch for both: words and actions and it all have to be genuine. Be weary of men who lay it on thick immediately.

Regarding the "rule" about the first sexual encounter with a partner, you don't tell men you have x rule or y rule. You just show. I never told men I have any kind of rule, but my demeanor was telling them whatever I had to say. With men, early on, the less said the better. You don't say "I only have sex in serious relationships" and then invite them to your house or go to theirs. I made this mistake in my early dating days and I was shocked that the guy jumped me and then got butthurt when I wasn't down for it. I didn't know. Always keep dates public.

It's also better to not go into too much personal "deep feelings" talk until later on. After you meet someone 3-4 times it's still too early for that kind of stuff. If a guy comes with that early, he either has some issues, so let him go, or he's trying to speed up the emotional connection beyond what's appropriate, so he can get to the connection below the belt faster. 

You have to be careful, but yes, there are good men out there and it is true you just need one. When you find him, it'll all be worth it! I hated dating with my whole being, but it was really worth it and I'd do it again if I had to start over.

I hope you find love really soon!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

You could always report him to the medical authorities.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

He graduated medical school in 1999 according to his surgery bio - so I guess he told me the truth about his age. Geez, he looked OLD. Especially naked. Like a plucked chicken.

Anyhoo, What a ***** obviously. 

I really hope I find love soon too - thanks all - not going to let it get me down. The internet is rife with these kinds of men and I will just get better at it over time.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Colt_blue said:


> Regarding the "rule" about the first sexual encounter with a partner, you don't tell men you have x rule or y rule. You just show. I never told men I have any kind of rule, but my demeanor was telling them whatever I had to say. With men, early on, the less said the better. You don't say "I only have sex in serious relationships" and then invite them to your house or go to theirs. *I made this mistake in my early dating days and I was shocked that the guy jumped me and then got butthurt when I wasn't down for it.* I didn't know. Always keep dates public.
> 
> It's also better to not go into too much personal "deep feelings" talk until later on. After you meet someone 3-4 times it's still too early for that kind of stuff. If a guy comes with that early, he either has some issues, so let him go, or he's trying to speed up the emotional connection beyond what's appropriate, so he can get to the connection below the belt faster.
> 
> ...


I've even seen discussions online on what to do if a guy asks to use your bathroom after taking you home.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't understand the equivocation of the sex you had with this man with casual sex. Too me, casual sex involves no strings attached, meet and bang, wham-bam-thank you ma'am situation. In this case you had a series of dates and interchanges which lead up to the sex itself. Who knows? It may have just been a case of the reality of the event overwhelming the fantasy that lead to it. I am not shaming you or blaming you, but you are the one who is equating this with casual sex and being used and violated. Your choices lead to this taking place. You were not raped, you were not used. Heck the guy was a doctor, for all you know he had been paged while he was with you. Perhaps he is so dedicated to his career, that he felt conflicted about missing a page while being otherwise engaged, freaked out about and said no more!
Also, please don't fall into the "every time you have sex you are going to get an STD" mindset. The actual chances of getting an STD are less than that of getting in a car accident. I am not saying it can't happen, just that it is highly unlikely


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> You could always report him to the medical authorities.



For what? Going on a series of dates with a woman? Having sex with a woman? What is she going to report? Doctors aren't anybody special, why would you possibly suggest she waste the time of "medical authorities" by reporting a relationship that didn't pan out when they have real life actual cases of doctors and nurses actually killing people thru malpractice?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Ynot said:


> I don't understand the equivocation of the sex you had with this man with casual sex. Too me, casual sex involves no strings attached, meet and bang, wham-bam-thank you ma'am situation. In this case you had a series of dates and interchanges which lead up to the sex itself. Who knows? It may have just been a case of the reality of the event overwhelming the fantasy that lead to it. I am not shaming you or blaming you, but you are the one who is equating this with casual sex and being used and violated. Your choices lead to this taking place. You were not raped, you were not used. Heck the guy was a doctor, for all you know he had been paged while he was with you. Perhaps he is so dedicated to his career, that he felt conflicted about missing a page while being otherwise engaged, freaked out about and said no more!
> Also, please don't fall into the "every time you have sex you are going to get an STD" mindset. The actual chances of getting an STD are less than that of getting in a car accident. I am not saying it can't happen, just that it is highly unlikely


The other thought to have here is, what if after the dinner he left immediately, early morning you know. @Sophia55, how would you have felt then?

The "use" of sex in a relationship is so all over the place, especially at beginning. Guys using women as beards. People dating someone to make another person jealous. Women wanting withhold sex to appear as a challenge ... and so on. You have to decide which side you would rather err on if you make a mistake about the timing of the first time.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Wait, you're looking for a serious relationship on Tinder???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Wait, you're looking for a serious relationship on Tinder???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I met my husband at a goth club/bar. 

My dear friend met her H playing Yahoo spades or hearts.. can't remember which.

Two friends met their respective spouses on Adult Friend Finder.

One married online buddy met her H on a dog forum.

Another online buddy and his wife met on Craigslist.

Sometimes, love can be found in unlikely places.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Sophie55 said:


> He graduated medical school in 1999 according to his surgery bio - so I guess he told me the truth about his age. Geez, he looked OLD. Especially naked. Like a plucked chicken.
> 
> Anyhoo, What a ***** obviously.
> 
> I really hope I find love soon too - thanks all - not going to let it get me down. The internet is rife with these kinds of men and I will just get better at it over time.


Number one rule of dating as stated earlier.
No ****ing doctors!!!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Sophie55 said:


> He graduated medical school in 1999 according to his surgery bio - so I guess he told me the truth about his age. Geez, he looked OLD. Especially naked. Like a plucked chicken.
> 
> Anyhoo, What a ***** obviously.
> 
> I really hope I find love soon too - thanks all - not going to let it get me down. The internet is rife with these kinds of men and I will just get better at it over time.



Please don't tell us he has small equipment as well.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Wait, you're looking for a serious relationship on Tinder???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




OP has a very difficult time acknowledging to herself that she highly values sex with an attractive man.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> I've even seen discussions online on what to do if a guy asks to use your bathroom after taking you home.


So what do you do if a guy asks to use your bath room when he takes you home? Tell him to go down the street to the gas station?

Or tell him that your plumbing is all backed up and the floor is flooded? LOL


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Hey

Just to respond @WorkingOnMe I look on a variety of different sites. The worst Catfish / nightmare I had was on Match so I think all dating sites are going to have good and bad. I work in the bridal industry and promise you - 1 in 5 of the brides I am fitting for her dress met the fiance on Tinder. 
@NextTimeAround - yes he did have a small penis. Sex was good anyway but it was pretty small, well below average.
@MartinBeck- My first attraction to a man is his brain. If he's really educated and has a good job I tend to get interested. That's just as shallow maybe as looks, but then I feel like a big part of my ideal relationship is going to be talking about things and I want someone on my intellectual level. Actually looks are a very low priority for me. I don't mind a chubby guy or a guy who's not traditionally attractive as long as he is smart, funny, interesting and treats me nicely. Six packs / traditionally "handsome" men actually turn me off a bit. Celebrity crush? Mark Ruffalo! I love sex though, but I enjoy having it with someone I feel emotionally connected. I don't have a hard time admitting anything to myself  For me, I regret this sex definitely because the emotional connection was falsified. Sex is an intimate experience, you know? You're meant to share it with someone you like, respect, admire. If you find out you were wrong on all those things it causes a feeling of Yuk. this is hard for a man to understand, but to put it in perspective, imagine you'd just shared an intimate kissing session with a gorgeous woman and then found out it was a dude. This is how women feel when the man turns out to be different in character /emotions to what we believed. We don't say "oh well, sex was great", we feel violated because the person was pretending to be something their not to trick us into giving something we would not have given if we had known


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> Starting to think maybe his marriage sucked and ended because he's a *********....
> 
> I've seen too many men who are players crying about their crazy mean ex's and how they can't see their kids, etc, when the reality is the ex was only reacting to piss poor treatment ( cheating, lying, neglect, and more) and the player has been "too busy" to spend regular time with the kids.


YES!!! Every single divorced man I've met claims that their ex is "bat**** crazy." There must be a lot of crazy women out there, yet they never seem crazy at all to me when I talk to them.

Must be necessary self-talk to keep their fragile egos from crumbling.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> So what do you do if a guy asks to use your bath room when he takes you home? Tell him to go down the street to the gas station?
> 
> Or tell him that your plumbing is all backed up and the floor is flooded? LOL


The only usable solution that I recall is for dating someone regularly who has a habit of asking to use your bathroom. That is, to make an example of using the bathroom while out and just before making the departure. If the guy doesn't use the restroom on his own, you could -- as discreetly as possible - ask him if he needs to use it, too.

This was a message board of very uptight, some of whom were determined "to not have sex" (which of course is not the same as "to remain a virgin) until they got married.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I think your indignation is a little disingenuous. You experienced a pump and dump on a hookup app. It's not like this was eharmony or similar. Tinder, Craigslist, AFF, you have to expect these sites to result in this. Sure, I'll admit that love can happen and people get married from hookups. But to get all hurt when it doesn't happen? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Disingenuous? As in...insincere?

Let me ask you something..if you had a daughter and she dated a man for a month, and he seemed like a great guy, got her flowers, did all the right things and treated her really well and then they had sex and he dumped her right after by text message saying he didn't want a relationship and she found him the next day with a dishonest profile lying about his age - would her being hurt be "disingenuous"?

I think it's honestly bizarre that some people think women should expect so little of men that lying / trickery to get sex under false pretences is fine. It's not fine. Sex is not a cup of coffee. That's the only person I slept with in a year, and now I have that memory forever and have to go and get tested for STDs.

Saying I somehow should have seen it coming because we met on Tinder is on the same lines of saying a woman in a short skirt deserves to get raped. 

The truth is that sex is one of the most intimate and loving and personal acts that we can share with another person, and we have a right to know who we are sharing it with. It's a crime to lie about practically anything else - you can't falsely sell a car or even a bit of furniture, you can't change the terms you agreed on with an employee, you can't advertise anything unless it's truthful.

I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting a bit more from people. If my expectations were as low as yours I don't think I'd ever want to date again.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Possibly @Sophie55, you may be disappointed with yourself since you pride yourself on being selective and being a good selector.

I like Monday morning quarterbacking, perhaps, you could think of some of the red flags that you ignored while dating him.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Sure, I am disappointed with myself for that reason also.


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## Colt_blue (Apr 4, 2017)

Sophie55 said:


> Disingenuous? As in...insincere?
> 
> Let me ask you something..if you had a daughter and she dated a man for a month, and he seemed like a great guy, got her flowers, did all the right things and treated her really well and then they had sex and he dumped her right after by text message saying he didn't want a relationship and she found him the next day with a dishonest profile lying about his age - would her being hurt be "disingenuous"?
> 
> ...


I know exactly and 100% how you feel. Don't try to explain it too much, there will be some people who will try to justify this type of behavior and/or blame you for it. You won't be able to convince them that this type of behavior is wrong in any way.

Yes, if that happened I'd be mad at myself. This is what I was afraid of more than anything else when I was dating.

In fact, the guy I had a short relationship with before I met my current FI (on match), duped me as well. Just to give you an example on how men can do a lot of things, and players can come in various disguises. So this one guy I dated, totally had a plan to date someone just for the summer. He dated me from May until September and he planned it that way all along. On the surface, he did all the right things so I shouldn't have been upset that I didn't see it coming. But in fact, he did a few things that were red flags that I chose to ignore. He told me he loved me after 1 month, he kept bringing up marriage (like a carrot), he slipped things like "ah, this is what summer is for " (making out with a woman on a picturesque trail-and other comments like that- e.g. I won't break your heart...yet hahaha- people tell you who they are in conversation, they let it slip) etc. But more importantly, this guy had never had a long term relationship in his 40s and jumped from job to job. So it was on me. I didn't feel too bad only because by the time he dumped me I had decided I didn't think he was a good match, but I would have ended it a bit later, I was at a point where I had that realization. And he couldn't get it up at all, so I thought no way I can live like that all of my life. Sex was exceptionally bad, if we could even call that sex. Also, at that time, I said, a fling like that is what I needed also, I was tired of the one and done dates. But the guy totally lied, future faked and all the stuff that comes with it. He wanted to finally settle down blah blah blah all the BS. He was disingenuous and a neutral observer would have seen it from miles away.

I suggest your read a few dating books: You lost him at hello by Jess McCann for example.


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## ne9907 (Jul 17, 2013)

He is an *******. When I was dating, if a man spoke **** about the ex, I would not go out with him again. 

Chalk him up as an ******* and move forward. Forget about him. Don't waste your energy on this guy.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

ne9907 said:


> He is an *******. When I was dating, if a man spoke **** about the ex, I would not go out with him again.
> 
> Chalk him up as an ******* and move forward. Forget about him. Don't waste your energy on this guy.


That is one big red flag. I get suspicious of anyone who makes sweeping negative remarks about someone else, no matter what the relationship is / was.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Sophie55 said:


> Sure, I am disappointed with myself for that reason also.


Ok, so learn a lesson and move on. Stop playing the victim, I am not blaming you, but I am sure when you stop to think about there were some obvious signs you chose to ignore.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> YES!!! Every single divorced man I've met claims that their ex is "bat**** crazy." There must be a lot of crazy women out there, yet they never seem crazy at all to me when I talk to them.
> 
> Must be necessary self-talk to keep their fragile egos from crumbling.


Maybe that is because you weren't the target of their craziness? That is a pretty wide brush you have used to paint "every single divorced man" as having a crumbling fragile ego.
OTOH, it might also speak to the caliber of men you are meeting. As for me, yeah, personally I think my ex was bat-**** cray - she could have had ME but threw it all away for who knows what. I happen to think I am a gift from God any woman should be more than happy to have my attention. So for me, when someone rejects that I can only imagine that they have to be bat **** crazy. I am sure from her perspective I was the bat **** crazy one, since I could not conform to her expectations. Every person has their own perspective, perhaps a little empathy would change yours?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Oh, I hate this...too, in addition, also.

I feel so bad for you. However, you do not need pity. You need to get your per-spectacles on. 

Were you violated? No, not at all.

Why? Only you and he knows anything about this incident.

He was polite, he was a gentlemen throughout the courtship. He wooed you properly, he made love to you properly.

The problem is you. Or so it seem, on the surface of your pride.

Actually, there is no 'problem' with you at all. You value yourself highly. Good for you. Keep it up.

Let's put your size 6.5 shoe on your "other" cute foot....

What if you were the one that decided that he is not the one for you? Initially, you thought he was perfect. His actions and words were fine.

But the chemistry fizzled. And, being an honorable and prideful women, you broke it off with him.

Did you use him? No, not at all. You gave the relationship a fair trial. You must do this, go through this.
...........................................................................................................................................................................

Yes, you laid naked in bed with him. He touched everything and had his hands and mouth everywhere on you.
When you now stand naked in front of a full length mirror, is there anything missing, out of place, damaged, bruised?

No, you are the same beautiful lady. And now you have a memory that cannot be replaced by a fantasy. You enjoyed your short time with him.
Relish the good part of it. There is no real downside...other then you still have residual feelings for him. If you did not have feelings for him you would not have slept with him.

Do not stop being intimate with men. Continue with your discriminate actions. Get close to 'only' those men who meet your standards. Same as before.

You think you have lost something...I dare say you have won something....In your twilight years, this incident will make you smile. Some warm feeling will still re-kindle.

Luv ya Dear...best of luck...good hunting!


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Ynot said:


> Maybe that is because you weren't the target of their craziness? That is a pretty wide brush you have used to paint "every single divorced man" as having a crumbling fragile ego.
> OTOH, it might also speak to the caliber of men you are meeting. As for me, yeah, personally I think my ex was bat-**** cray - she could have had ME but threw it all away for who knows what. I happen to think I am a gift from God any woman should be more than happy to have my attention. So for me, when someone rejects that I can only imagine that they have to be bat **** crazy. I am sure from her perspective I was the bat **** crazy one, since I could not conform to her expectations. Every person has their own perspective, perhaps a little empathy would change yours?


My husband hears it too from guys we thought split amicably. Sorry, no compassion here for blaming their D on the mother of their children, who apparently "went crazy."

Granted, we don't hang around tons of divorced men, but the ones we do know or meet and talk to long enough to say "sorry to hear..." ends up in a diatribe of how "crazy" the ex is. 

I do have empathy for people who got the wrong end of the stick or married the wrong person, and I certainly have empathy for the children involved. But I wish more people could own up to it and say "yeah, we both made mistakes and I'm committed to learning from them."

I think married or not, if you're not learning, you're not moving forward.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

_Assuming_ he's not married and got cold feet about stepping into an affair, my first instinct is that he is still scarred and is scared to death about relationships and he liked you so much that it scared him away. 

That said, telling you so in a text instead of face to face tells you all you need to know about him.


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

Sophie55 said:


> He graduated medical school in 1999 according to his surgery bio - so I guess he told me the truth about his age. Geez, he looked OLD. Especially naked. Like a plucked chicken.
> 
> Anyhoo, What a ***** obviously.
> 
> I really hope I find love soon too - thanks all - not going to let it get me down. The internet is rife with these kinds of men and I will just get better at it over time.


If he graduated from med school in 1999, he would be at least 43 years old. Med school is 4 years past undergrad and 8 years since high school. So he most likely finished high school in 1991 at age 18. 26 years since high school + 18 = 43. If he took longer in med school with some specialty, he could be older than 43. 

So... he most likely lied to you about being 41 and is most definitely fudging his current age of 36 on tinder. Jeez lieing a year or 2 but he seems to be lieing by a decade or more now!

Enter his name or address at this site and check. Narrow it by state or age to find him. You may find all kins of stuff about him.

https://www.truepeoplesearch.com/results?name=John Doe


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

Andy1001 said:


> Unfortunately you came into contact with a player and once he slept with you he moved on.The only reason he hung on so long was his age,if he had been fifteen years younger he wouldn't have waited so long for sex.There is not much you can do here other than put it behind you and move on.
> At least the sex was good.


 This is not it at all. if what you said were true. He would have just left her hanging with out a word.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

ladybird said:


> This is not it at all. if what you said were true. He would have just left her hanging with out a word.


Read the rest of the thread and then I'll expect your apology.lol.😜😜


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> Unfortunately you came into contact with a player and once he slept with you he moved on.The only reason he hung on so long was his age,if he had been fifteen years younger he wouldn't have waited so long for sex.There is not much you can do here other than put it behind you and move on.
> At least the sex was good.


This, totally agree.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Abc123wife said:


> If he graduated from med school in 1999, he would be at least 43 years old. Med school is 4 years past undergrad and 8 years since high school. So he most likely finished high school in 1991 at age 18. 26 years since high school + 18 = 43. If he took longer in med school with some specialty, he could be older than 43.
> 
> So... he most likely lied to you about being 41 and is most definitely fudging his current age of 36 on tinder. Jeez lieing a year or 2 but he seems to be lieing by a decade or more now!
> 
> ...


Well, he could be a Doogie Howser type.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Would you be getting tested for STDs right now if you and he were still seeing each other?

Do STDs some how know that you aren't seeing him any more and so now they are more likely to infect you?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> My husband hears it too from guys we thought split amicably. Sorry, no compassion here for blaming their D on the mother of their children, who apparently "went crazy."
> 
> Granted, we don't hang around tons of divorced men, but the ones we do know or meet and talk to long enough to say "sorry to hear..." ends up in a diatribe of how "crazy" the ex is.
> 
> ...


While I agree with the "if you're not learning, you're not moving forward" sentiment, I think you are jumping the gun here. So these guys are all recently divorced, hence the "sorry to hear..." comment. Perhaps they haven't had time to process what happened? And again it is not a ton of men just the ones you know and meet. You make the assumption that they split amicably, and then have no empathy for them "blaming the mother of their children" as if being a mother somehow leaves the woman faultless. Sorry, but if you have been thru it, then you might have a little empathy because accepting blame (as we see right here on this thread) doesn't happen overnight. Maybe you should speak to some of those guys a few years down the road.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

@Ynot, you're not going to convince me to show empathy for men who claim their ex's are "crazy," when they were perfectly healthy enough to have married them and started a family with them. 

Having children with a woman should earn her at least the decency to not accuse her of mental illness in public, if only for the reason that it could be very hurtful if it got back to their children. Certainly, I agree that having children does not make a woman blameless....but why do so many men feel the need to blame their ex's for being "crazy" when in most instances, it takes 2 to break up a family? I could see expressing facts, like she was unfaithful, and that's why the marriage ended (and he'd have my empathy for sure), but to claim she's "crazy?" No one buys it, unless they're recently divorced too.

I guess the flip-side is some ex's claim he's narcissistic...and in both cases, I'd say let a professional make that diagnosis. I'd like to meet one recently divorced guy who doesn't claim his wife is "f'ing crazy."


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> @Ynot, you're not going to convince me to show empathy for men who claim their ex's are "crazy," when they were perfectly healthy enough to have married them and started a family with them.
> 
> Having children with a woman should earn her at least the decency to not accuse her of mental illness in public, if only for the reason that it could be very hurtful if it got back to their children. Certainly, I agree that having children does not make a woman blameless....but why do so many men feel the need to blame their ex's for being "crazy" when in most instances, it takes 2 to break up a family? I could see expressing facts, like she was unfaithful, and that's why the marriage ended, but to claim she's "crazy?" No one buys it, unless they're recently divorced too.
> 
> I guess the flip-side is some ex's claim he's narcissistic...and in both cases, I'd say let a professional make that diagnosis. I'd like to meet one recently divorced guy who doesn't claim his wife is "f'ing crazy."


Obviously, not you have already made up your mind. You do know people change? People try to be something they aren't and people sometimes succeed, but eventually the truth comes out. For instance, the thread we now find ourselves on... the OP thought this guy was A-Ok, to use your words, "healthy" enough to invite into her home and have sex with, in fact. But guess what? He wasn't, so here we are.
OTOH, hand some here would say cheating is a sign of craziness, and a few more would say not wanting to have sex on at least a semi-regular basis is craziness. Also, some guys might say she went "crazy" precisely because she cheated on him. Rather than go into all the sordid details, it might just be easier to say she went nuts. For whatever reason.
Perhaps the guy thinks that having children with her should earn him at least the decency to NOT have her do whatever she did? Even if that entailed leaving him. You like to leave out the part about him having children with her but for some reason have a double standard when it comes to women.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

A bit of a surprising development here and I thought I'd share because I started the thread to ask what happened and I think I now have an answer.

As I said, he had a new Tinder profile with himself younger and I was pretty angry about being played. My little sister came over last night for some wine and to give me a hug and tell me to stay positive and I told her about the Tinder profile. My sister is a lesbian (not relevant but ha ha!) and she's also on tinder (although looking for the ladies) but anyway, we switched her to "looking for men" and she matched him with the intention of finding out how much of a liar he is and calling him out on it. A revenge match I guess.

Wasn't as expected though and the conversation was actually strange. He opened up to her with all the same intros as he did to me, all the same lines about looking for the right girl (I was nearly sick in my mouth sitting there reading this) and said he was divorced and it was a bad divorce but he was pretty succinct. Then we asked him about his last date and he said it was a few days ago but he'd felt no spark and that most of the dates he'd had in the past year were not good. Then we asked him about the last time he had sex (curious to see if he lied!!)

So this is what he said..

He went on for about 4 pages, really rambling, really verbal about it. He said he'd recently met a girl and really liked her, got on great with her and that he had sex with her a week ago and he said the sex with her was amazing and that they'd been awake all night and done it 8 times (weird that he shared this with a new potential date but ok). He said though that the problem was that she had an autistic child (I do but he's extremely high functioning and older and not looking for a Dad!) and that she was a widow and he'd been worried that with no Father that a relationship with her would have meant being responsible for the child and "stepping up to the plate" and he said he worried if things went wrong then he'd be letting both the girl and her child down and he didn't want to do that to a child and felt unable to take the risk. He said she was a nice girl though and he'd felt bad about it all but that he'd lost his head for a while because she was so pretty and he didn't think it through beforehand.

So maybe not such a jerk quite after all (although still kind of) but by the way he went on for honestly 4 pages it sure sounded like he was hung up on it because not what you'd normally do when hitting on a new girl.

Pretty sad about that really, but maybe dodged a bullet. But good to have an answer!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

turnera said:


> _Assuming_ he's not married and got cold feet about stepping into an affair, my first instinct is that he is still scarred and is scared to death about relationships and he liked you so much that it scared him away.
> 
> That said, telling you so in a text instead of face to face tells you all you need to know about him.


Yes...

And to you, Dear, No! But only because I like saying no to you! :grin2:

It tells me one of two things.

1) He had "great" respect for her. He cannot look her in the eye and tell her that this relationship is not going to work for him. He cannot face the pain in her reaction.
Yes, he is wimpy....but kindly...overly kind {in his mind,only, *not hers!!*}. *He too, feels guilt. A lot of guilt.* He is not a rat, *but he did bite her.*issed:issed:issed:

She did not get to "learn" from this ending. Or, learn enough or learn what went wrong. This is not "closure", this is cruel. By doing this, he made her feel used. Had he simply said, "I like you very much, but I can see that this relationship is not going to work for me". "There is nothing wrong with you, you are wonderful, it is me that has issues". Had he said that, the pain would have been lessened. And her hatred of him [and herself] would have been lessened.

I can jump up and down all day and say that she *should not feel "thus". But "she" does*. And no one can change her feelings, only she can. When the heart is wounded, it simply is, just that, wounded. Why, is another subject.

2) He got what he wanted. *He needed to see that he "still" had IT.* To see if he was desirable, could get a good women.....he used her. He politely used her. Not good.

I believe it was the first reason, hence my [No!] to Turnera.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Sophie55 said:


> So this is what he said..
> 
> He went on for about 4 pages, really rambling, really verbal about it. He said he'd recently met a girl and really liked her, got on great with her and that he had sex with her a week ago and he said the sex with her was amazing
> So maybe not such a jerk quite after all.
> ...


Ah!

You have been snookered.....yet again. But now I have opened the door [for you] on his bare butt. I exposed his back-room wanking and sniveling. He gave you good reasons for his walk-away behavior. 

He KNEW who he was opening up to on TINDER. That is why he wrote four stinking pages.

And yes, he is still a wimp. A kindly wimp who spared you the truth. Spared you the truth but never removed the blade in your heart...until NOW!


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

I wondered if he knew who he was opening up to on Tinder but I don't think he did. He was trying to meet my sister actually and asking what her body was like! Creepy! 

Definitely a wimp though


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm not dating, but if I were, I'd have no compulsions to doing any background checking up on him to make sure he's not a creep.

Oh well, at least you had a great couple of days out of it!


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

So I called it correctly. 

He was into you and something happened when he slept over that spooked him and he chose to run.

Very sorry for that he is rejecting you because of your child. Best that it ended sooner rather then later, though.

And obviously understand that you wouldn't want a FWB setup with the guy knowing that.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Yes you called it correctly. I guess he did like me/ find me attractive but not enough to take a risk on a relationship that might remind him of previous issues or give him more responsibility than he was comfortable with.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Jessica38 said:


> YES!!! Every single divorced man I've met claims that their ex is "bat**** crazy." There must be a lot of crazy women out there, yet they never seem crazy at all to me when I talk to them.
> 
> Must be necessary self-talk to keep their fragile egos from crumbling.


As the saying goes - All women are crazy, but they are only crazy because their men made them that way. >


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

One thing that does stand out with hindsight that I thought was strange is that he didn't mention he had children until quite late. I mean, when you ask a guy about himself and he says his age, job, marital status, likes and dislikes and at no point did he mention he had kids until I asked. When I said I had a child he said "oh, ok, I can make that work", which again was a weird response.

When he did talk about them there was something lacking. One word answers, no feeling of pride, no mention of their names and ages. I found this odd looking back. Most people, especially guys, are so all over talking about their kids and being proud and happy. I remember when he was talking about custody and issues around his children that I felt a flash or irritation.

My Mom had a crazy mother, seriously crazy and he father was weak and more scared of the Mom than anything so he kind of just left his kids and never saw them. He ran away basically when they were young and then he died a couple of years ago and my Mom didn't feel anything. I got the picture this guy was THAT kind of a guy.

He seemed more interested in chasing women than trying to see his kids. I think in the long terms as that unravelled I could not have dated someone like that.

Maybe some issues there because I think he felt guilt and preferred to push it out of his mind.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not sure if this will apply to you, but I always tell people to find things to do that they love, join clubs or groups - I don't care, bowling, dancing, Toastmasters, whatever, and just make friends with everyone you meet. Get to know people there, male and female. You'll see people of the opposite sex in their 'natural habitat,' i.e. NOT just trying to impress somebody. You'll be able to get to know someone for real, good and bad, and see if they're the kind of person you'd want to know better.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Ynot said:


> Yeah, like none of that ever happened when you were 17? Two things come to mind here. First the only real difference is that now you are aware of those things. Secondly, it sounds like your brother and BIL need to look at the women they are going out with. In the end, we get to decide who we go out. Just because they keep picking losers doesn't make it bad.
> I guess I don't understand the mentality that thinks we are not allowed to make mistakes. If we see some one we must become involved with them. If we sleep with them we must have an LTR.
> There are several sayings that come to mind. "It is always darkest before dawn" and "For every high there is a low" are two. All the "duds" we go thru make all of the 'good' dates worthwhile, even more so.


When I was 17 as well as my brother 3 years older than I...there was no internet dating connecting us to a plethora of crazy.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> When I was 17 as well as my brother 3 years older than I...there was no internet dating connecting us to a plethora of crazy.


No, no internet dating but there were still personals in the various newspapers, clubs and all sorts of other means to connect to a plethora of crazy. I am not saying today is not different in some ways than the past, but the reality "craziness" is not something new.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

turnera said:


> Not sure if this will apply to you, but I always tell people to find things to do that they love, join clubs or groups - I don't care, bowling, dancing, Toastmasters, whatever, and just make friends with everyone you meet. Get to know people there, male and female. You'll see people of the opposite sex in their 'natural habitat,' i.e. NOT just trying to impress somebody. You'll be able to get to know someone for real, good and bad, and see if they're the kind of person you'd want to know better.


I met my husband at a meetup activity.

Due to my advanced age, 50, I knew I would never get picked up in any guy's search results. My husband assumed that I was the same age as he -- 10 years younger...... and the rest is history.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

turnera said:


> I'm not dating, but if I were, I'd have no compulsions to doing any background checking up on him to make sure he's not a creep.
> 
> Oh well, at least *you had a great couple of days out of it!*


 @turnera

*Cha-Ching !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

A cloaked "like" from one of the Red Queens advisors. Be careful. She brooks no insubordination from anyone. Keep it up and your head will be on the chopping block.
As mine is.

I will take *"any echoed"* compliment from you. At one time you were very generous with them [for me].
................................................................................................................................................
*Until * ............

I was transformed into a Red Dog by King Brian.

The same King who hides under the Red Queens skirt. And pleasures her...often and at her command.

I have been set free of Red Dog.....

My days are limited. Unduly so.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

It is my opinion that the guy just wasn't ready to move on. It happened to me just like you described except I was the guy "not ready." I enjoyed sexual relations a couple of times and I suppose the women may have felt "used." BUT, I was honest with them and never once did I feel like I was using them. I was trying to make an honest effort to move forward and be open but it just wasn't happening. Some women I never slept with just because it didn't play out that way and that's ok. The sleeping together part is really inconsequential to the scenerio. I just wasn't ready for another relationship. OP, don't take what happened to you personally. I really don't think you were played. Guard yourself as you see fit but don't become jaded just because of this one experience.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> YES!!! Every single divorced man I've met claims that their ex is "bat**** crazy." There must be a lot of crazy women out there, yet they never seem crazy at all to me when I talk to them.
> 
> Must be necessary self-talk to keep their fragile egos from crumbling.


I want to state that many people (women or men) are able to manage themselves just fine in public. It would be crazy to assume that they acted like raving lunatics when at the grocery store or whatnot. My ex was great when we were out together. When we left I often got an earful about how I said something wrong, I was flirting or staring at someone or blah blah blah.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Ynot said:


> No, no internet dating but there were still personals in the various newspapers, clubs and all sorts of other means to connect to a plethora of crazy. I am not saying today is not different in some ways than the past, but the reality "craziness" is not something new.


Concur


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Herschel said:


> I want to state that many people (women or men) are able to manage themselves just fine in public. It would be crazy to assume that they acted like raving lunatics when at the grocery store or whatnot. My ex was great when we were out together. When we left I often got an earful about how I said something wrong, I was flirting or staring at someone or blah blah blah.


If they are able to carry on normal conversations with others and behave in mentally healthy ways, than chances are they are not crazy. 

Like Bananapeel said, and I just heard Dr. Harley say on Marriage Builders Radio, often intelligent women who are not crazy at all can't stop themselves from criticizing their husbands for things that happened years ago in the marriage. It's often due to resentment, which is a marriage-killer. A woman who acts nuts only around her husband often behaves that way because he has or is in fact doing things that deeply bother her and her emotions are telling her to do anything she can to repel him, to look as unattractive as possible to him to get her away from him.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> If they are able to carry on normal conversations with others and behave in mentally healthy ways, than chances are they are not crazy.


Are you a psychologist? What do you really know if it? Do some research. Most people are functioning active adults. My ex is likely BDP. She has limited capabilities in terms of managing her emotional state. She often would put on a false front that was used for other people. She knew of this and she actually justified it by thinking ALL people do this. "Their representative" is how she would put it. I bought into it for a couple of years. You'd like her just fine if you met her. Don't marry her though.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Sophie55 said:


> One thing that does stand out with hindsight that I thought was strange is that he didn't mention he had children until quite late. I mean, when you ask a guy about himself and he says his age, job, marital status, likes and dislikes and at no point did he mention he had kids until I asked. When I said I had a child he said "oh, ok, I can make that work", which again was a weird response.
> 
> When he did talk about them there was something lacking. One word answers, no feeling of pride, no mention of their names and ages. I found this odd looking back. Most people, especially guys, are so all over talking about their kids and being proud and happy. I remember when he was talking about custody and issues around his children that I felt a flash or irritation.
> 
> ...


Did you google search him and his facebook? I always do research on whomever I am dating to make sure all the facts line up. I still got screwed (figuratively and literally), but at least I saw she wasn't specifically lying about herself.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Herschel said:


> Are you a psychologist? What do you really know if it? Do some research. Most people are functioning active adults. My ex is likely BDP. She has limited capabilities in terms of managing her emotional state. She often would put on a false front that was used for other people. She knew of this and she actually justified it by thinking ALL people do this. "Their representative" is how she would put it. I bought into it for a couple of years. You'd like her just fine if you met her. Don't marry her though.


Has your ex been diagnosed with BPD by a licensed clinical psych? Are you a licensed clinical psych who is qualified to make such a diagnosis for your ex?

I am not a licensed psych (though I have an undergrad degree in psych and work with psychologists), but Dr. Harley is a licensed clinical psych with a PhD who has been practicing for decades, and what I wrote is exactly what he expressed on his radio show today- that women often act in ways their husbands label as crazy when in fact, they are not at all. Their emotions are causing them to repel their husbands because they are unable to let go of the resentment for actions that have deeply hurt them.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Jessica38 said:


> If they are able to carry on normal conversations with others and behave in mentally healthy ways, than chances are they are not crazy.
> 
> Like Bananapeel said, and I just heard Dr. Harley say on Marriage Builders Radio, often intelligent women who are not crazy at all can't stop themselves from criticizing their husbands for things that happened years ago in the marriage. *It's often due to resentment, which is a marriage-killer. *A woman who acts nuts only around her husband often behaves that way because he has or is in fact doing things that deeply bother her and her emotions are telling her to do anything she can to repel him, to look as unattractive as possible to him to get her away from him.


The other way to look at it is that in long-term relationships, the hurt and other types of transgressions become cumulative .... to the point that what may look like a small thing to a third party is viewed as the "thin side of the wedge" to someone more experienced in their partner's maneuvers / manipulations. 

I always think about how when I was young(er) / naive / inexperienced and so things like women calling /contacting my husband to make social plans when they included me was no big deal. Now, I know that it is a big deal and it needs to be shut down immediately.

That's what experience will do for you.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> Has your ex been diagnosed with BPD by a licensed clinical psych? Are you a licensed clinical psych who is qualified to make such a diagnosis for your ex?
> 
> I am not a licensed psych (though I have an undergrad degree in psych and work with psychologists), but Dr. Harley is a licensed clinical psych with a PhD who has been practicing for decades, and what I wrote is exactly what he expressed on his radio show today.


No, she isn't, because she wouldn't go when I told her I'd go with her and support her. How could she be, it makes no sense. A lot of people practice for decades and come up with all sorts of ideas. I am not even saying he is wrong. Maybe my situation is different? Given that her daughter often tells me how she is now the brunt of the emotional outburts and that I'm the only sane one in her life, well, that is two different perspectives. However, enough about me. My point was that, just because there are instances, doesn't mean that's all the cases. You painted with a broad brush...


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

NextTimeAround said:


> I met my husband at a meetup activity.
> 
> Due to my advanced age, 50, I knew I would never get picked up in any guy's search results. My husband assumed that I was the same age as he -- 10 years younger...... and the rest is history.


I love this! Needing to hear nice positive stories. It's tempting to me, even being late 30s to sometimes feel too old. I know I m still young but you start to get that feeling of time marching on.

I think I will definitely try and be more social outside of work and family life to meet new people. even if I don't meet a man maybe it will help some way to assuage a little bit of the loneliness and starvation of adult company!


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

Sophie55 said:


> One thing that does stand out with hindsight that I thought was strange is that he didn't mention he had children until quite late. I mean, when you ask a guy about himself and he says his age, job, marital status, likes and dislikes and at no point did he mention he had kids until I asked. When I said I had a child he said "oh, ok, I can make that work", which again was a weird response.
> 
> When he did talk about them there was something lacking. One word answers, no feeling of pride, no mention of their names and ages. I found this odd looking back. Most people, especially guys, are so all over talking about their kids and being proud and happy. I remember when he was talking about custody and issues around his children that I felt a flash or irritation.
> 
> ...



It sounds like this guy is into just short term relationships, you know the fun chase and excitement of the possibilities. But then realities set in or he thinks about the long term and gets scared, so he then moves on. If he isn't even mentioning his kids, then he doesn't want long term commitments. It doesn't sound like he has much comittment to even them! How many kids does he have? How old are they?

Did he mention his kids to your sister? 

It would be funny to get your sister to drag him along for a month of messaging, getting his hopes up, and then maybe one date (him taking her to fancy restaurant and not letting him physically close at all). Then she could message him that she just isn't into him physically, that he looks quite a bit older then his profile indicated, and she doesn't like the thought of getting involved with a guy with kids.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Herschel said:


> No, she isn't, because she wouldn't go when I told her I'd go with her and support her. How could she be, it makes no sense. A lot of people practice for decades and come up with all sorts of ideas. I am not even saying he is wrong. Maybe my situation is different? Given that her daughter often tells me how she is now the brunt of the emotional outburts and that I'm the only sane one in her life, well, that is two different perspectives. However, enough about me. My point was that, just because there are instances, doesn't mean that's all the cases. You painted with a broad brush...


Understood. For the record, I do know that BPD is a very difficult diagnosis to live with, and you have my sympathy for dealing with that in your marriage. Good for you for staying in contact with her daughter and being a solid person in her life..

I only painted with a broad brush because I hear it so often from divorced men, that their Ex was "crazy," when I think divorced spouses need to realize that if she was only crazy with you, you likely had something to do with that. We all act crazy when we feel disrespected, neglected, criticized, etc. often enough. And women ARE often more emotional so it's easy to watch women get upset and point the finger, when in reality, most divorces are the result of two people who made mistakes in the marriage.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Herschel said:


> Did you google search him and his facebook? I always do research on whomever I am dating to make sure all the facts line up. I still got screwed (figuratively and literally), but at least I saw she wasn't specifically lying about herself.


Yes but there was nothing about his children anywhere. I did find his ex wife's FB but not his. He didn't seem to be on there, but I found him in other places in a professional capacity.

I do google, sometimes you don't get all the info


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Abc123wife said:


> It sounds like this guy is into just short term relationships, you know the fun chase and excitement of the possibilities. But then realities set in or he thinks about the long term and gets scared, so he then moves on. If he isn't even mentioning his kids, then he doesn't want long term commitments. It doesn't sound like he has much comittment to even them! How many kids does he have? How old are they?
> 
> Did he mention his kids to your sister?
> 
> It would be funny to get your sister to drag him along for a month of messaging, getting his hopes up, and then maybe one date (him taking her to fancy restaurant and not letting him physically close at all). Then she could message him that she just isn't into him physically, that he looks quite a bit older then his profile indicated, and she doesn't like the thought of getting involved with a guy with kids.


He has two or three children I think he said, but he was so vague I didn't really grasp it. I know he has a son the same age as my son and both have Aspergers. I do remember saying to him on the last date that if his ex wife truly had BPD then he needed to provide a loving and stable support system to his son rather than just walking away because it was difficult, because Aspie kids (especially teens) really need this! He looked embarrassed and said "I know, my parents tell me the same thing". Maybe I spoke out of line but he really peed me off by not seeming to care about his kids enough. My son is SO sensitive and Aspie kids have it hard - they need it good at home to feel safe.

no, no mention of kids to my sister!!! I got her to totally ham it up and say she was looking for marriage and children quickly and he said he was fine with that! Was so funny, he was so fully of crap it was unbelievable. Total smooth talker.

He is still messaging my sister. We're discussing whether she should block or not. she think she should book a date with him and then stand him up and send a message saying "sorry, I saw you and you looked nothing like your pictures". I felt that was cruel and revenge is not my style. But I still laughed at the idea. 

I think I will tell her to block him now. I only did it to get answers and I got those. Don't want to become one of those vindictive women. I am sure his jerkness will bite him in the backside without my help.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

As a side note my sister says men like him make her glad she's a lesbian 

Not that her love life is simpler, but for sure, women just do not pretend to be someone completely different to get laid.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Sophie55 said:


> As a side note my sister says men like him make her glad she's a lesbian
> 
> Not that her love life is simpler, but for sure, women just do not pretend to be someone completely different to get laid.


No, they do that to get married...


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Herschel said:


> No, they do that to get married...


Made me laugh. 

Maybe for some women, not so for me  

I guess just like the male equivalent, only applies to a percentage that spoil life for the rest of us


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sophie55 said:


> He has two or three children I think he said, but he was so vague I didn't really grasp it. I know he has a son the same age as my son and both have Aspergers. I do remember saying to him on the last date that if his ex wife truly had BPD then he needed to provide a loving and stable support system to his son rather than just walking away because it was difficult, because Aspie kids (especially teens) really need this! He looked embarrassed and said "I know, my parents tell me the same thing". Maybe I spoke out of line but he really peed me off by not seeming to care about his kids enough. My son is SO sensitive and Aspie kids have it hard - they need it good at home to feel safe.
> 
> no, no mention of kids to my sister!!! I got her to totally ham it up and say she was looking for marriage and children quickly and he said he was fine with that! Was so funny, he was so fully of crap it was unbelievable. Total smooth talker.
> 
> ...


I've read that sometimes players will pretend to have similar backgrounds as yours so as to be easier to pick up women. It struck me that you said his son had Aspergers; would he have already known that about you before he offered his story up?


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

turnera said:


> I've read that sometimes players will pretend to have similar backgrounds as yours so as to be easier to pick up women. It struck me that you said his son had Aspergers; would he have already known that about you before he offered his story up?


Yes I told him I had an Aspie son and his age and he said "same as my son".

True, he might have lied about that. Who knows!


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

Funny update though (I know I shouldn't laugh) but throughout the day, my sister, in an effort to break off communication with this guy has gone through the online dating version of "How To Lose a Guy in 10 Days" just revealing increasing problems trying to get him to go away, including:

Really bad spelling and use of no punctuation and all caps
Ranting about exes and saying she still loves her ex
Saying men always use her for sex
Saying her ex is "psycho" and stalks her
Saying she liked to cut herself to escape pain
Saying she had an eating disorder
Saying she wanted to find a man to take care of her
Saying she was not currently working due to mental health problems
Saying she had problems with past relationships due to insane jealousy and insecurity
Saying she was looking to get married and have a baby within 1 year.
Saying she has some emotional problems she is working on in therapy

All through all this he still wants to date her!!! He just keeps saying "that's not a problem for me"

So here he is trying to play this girl who for all he knows has serious mental health issues. The guy is total pond scum and would play anything that moved.

She's going to have to just block him because he is really desperate. Such a loser. Yuk!


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Herschel said:


> Are you a psychologist? What do you really know if it? Do some research. Most people are functioning active adults. My ex is likely BDP. She has limited capabilities in terms of managing her emotional state. She often would put on a false front that was used for other people. She knew of this and she actually justified it by thinking ALL people do this. "Their representative" is how she would put it. I bought into it for a couple of years. You'd like her just fine if you met her. Don't marry her though.


You are so wrong here. If you had children with this woman, then she couldn't possibly be crazy (according the poster you were responding to)
I totally understand where you are coming from though. Many would say my ex was a saint, altruistic, vivacious, outgoing, personable and she was on the surface. But like you any time we were alone, no matter what I did was never good enough, I never made enough, I wasn't (pick whatever) enough. I was a failure not deserving of basic human decency. It wasn't always so, the change took a while but I still bought into for quite a few years. Was she crazy? I dunno, but a lot of people that knew us thought she had to be to do what she did.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Ynot said:


> You are so wrong here. If you had children with this woman, then she couldn't possibly be crazy (according the poster you were responding to)
> I totally understand where you are coming from though. *Many would say my ex was a saint, altruistic, vivacious, outgoing, personable and she was on the surface. But like you any time we were alone, no matter what I did was never good enough, I never made enough, I wasn't (pick whatever) enough.* I was a failure not deserving of basic human decency. It wasn't always so, the change took a while but I still bought into for quite a few years. Was she crazy? I dunno, but a lot of people that knew us thought she had to be to do what she did.


Sounds like my mother.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Ynot said:


> You are so wrong here. If you had children with this woman, then she couldn't possibly be crazy (according the poster you were responding to)
> 
> Uh, no...what I said was that she was mentally healthy enough for you to marry and have children with, but suddenly after you divorced she's "crazy?" And I also said that the mother of your children does not deserve to be labeled as "crazy" by you in public, unless she's a threat to herself and/or others, in which case, I'm certain you had her evaluated for the court, because you wouldn't want your children in custody of such a mentally disabled person, right?
> 
> ...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Sophie55 said:


> I love this! Needing to hear nice positive stories. It's tempting to me, even being late 30s to sometimes feel too old.


You have nothing to fear. A woman who takes good care of herself gets sexier as she gets older. Older women are better at conversation, smarter, much more interesting to engage with, tend to not be as shallow and superficial as younger women, and are way better in bed than younger women. A mature woman knows what she wants in bed and isn't afraid to ask for it. :grin2:


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> You have nothing to fear. A woman who takes good care of herself gets sexier as she gets older. Older women are better at conversation, smarter, much more interesting to engage with, tend to not be as shallow and superficial as younger women, and are way better in bed than younger women. A mature woman knows what she wants in bed and isn't afraid to ask for it. :grin2:


and will also be up to date on the icons of the time.......

back when my husband was still FB friends with his so called friend, he just had to mention to me how she wrote on her FB wall that on a train ride she met the lead singer of a fairly popular 80s band. Who the hell are they she asks on her wall? For my husband, it was another reminder of how little they had in common.


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## Sophie55 (May 19, 2017)

NextTimeAround said:


> and will also be up to date on the icons of the time.......
> 
> back when my husband was still FB friends with his so called friend, he just had to mention to me how she wrote on her FB wall that on a train ride she met the lead singer of a fairly popular 80s band. Who the hell are they she asks on her wall? For my husband, it was another reminder of how little they had in common.


After a looooooot of pressure I dated a 28 year old last year for a few months. He was just always asking me out so I agreed in the end. After about two months of enjoying all the fun and sweetness he invited me to a party at his house and they were drinking out of plastic cups and he had room mates. So funny. I felt like the Mom. 

Anyway...! Was a fun experience and he was sweet but I prefer men my own age so we have stuff in common


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Sophie55 said:


> After a looooooot of pressure I dated a 28 year old last year for a few months. He was just always asking me out so I agreed in the end. After about two months of enjoying all the fun and sweetness he invited me to a party at his house and they were drinking out of plastic cups and he had room mates. So funny. I felt like the Mom.
> 
> Anyway...! Was a fun experience and he was sweet but I prefer men my own age so we have stuff in common


Yeah but I bet you pounced on him. Bet ya did.....:grin2:


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah but I bet you pounced on him. Bet ya did.....:grin2:


Lol, not alllll *older women* are cougars
Not that there's anything wrong with that.....:grin2:


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah but I bet you pounced on him. Bet ya did.....:grin2:




Sophie I think it would do you a world of good to spend the night with this "kid"on an occasional as-needed basis.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Don't Panic said:


> Lol, not alllll *older women* are cougars
> Not that there's anything wrong with that.....:grin2:


You're right. 

Some are cougars...some are lionesses...some are cheetahs....some are tigers....


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> You're right.
> 
> Some are cougars...some are lionesses...some are cheetahs....some are tigers....


Although Sophie really isn't quite old enough to be any of the above. She is only in her 30's


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

@Ynot, I think it's time to move on and stop with the T/J. 
@Sophie55, sorry for getting into a side-issue on your thread. I have no doubt that you'll meet someone better. Honestly, it sounds like you dodged a bullet with the Dr. I still can't believe how much he told your sister!


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