# Is marriage this bad for men?



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

2ntnuff posted this (see below) on another thread. Is this a fair critique of marriage?



> Quote:
> I really enjoyed a discussion that cropped up in the manosphere yesterday starting with the inimitable Dalrock, and slowly expanded by one of his anonymous readers, and then by Hawaiian Libertarian.
> 
> It started with Dalrock’s development of a metaphor of marriage as a dining experience:
> ...


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

When was this posted? I read it (here I believe) a few years ago. I don't see anything wrong with the logic of it.

I wonder why it got to this but the how is govt interference in the family. An example is a lady my wife works with that is divorced. Her kids got a free ride to college because she is a single mother. She cheats with her boyfriend who is married. Her divorce was because her husband cheated and married his new gf.

Making anything easier makes it more likely. No fault divorce has be the death knell of many marriages. Govt acton makes it worse and worse. 

In a subset of our culture, government "help" has led to 80% of their children being born with out a father in the home.

A very distressing trend is that more and more young men are opting out of the high cost of college. The more govt subsidizes colleges here, the more they raise their prices. Compared to the days I went to school, the education dolled out now is mainly political correctness. I had to take four science classes out side my major to graduate. My son has to take one.

Women are now outnumbering men in higher education. Young males are just opting out of liberal run institutions. My son and daughter are doing great so far, but with the leadership we have now, I wonder how bad it can get.

Have you checked out this lady, she has a handle on things most people are furiously hiding from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlvMAS_20K4


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Boy, is she f'ing smart (and sexy).


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Hope jdl watches this.


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Have you checked out this lady, she has a handle on things most people are furiously hiding from. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlvMAS_20K4


Really interesting video on the symptoms of our society, but no solution is offered.

I look at my mom, my grandmothers, my wife's mom and grandmothers, and I cannot say they had happy marriages. On the other hand, their husbands ruled the home and their manhood was fully satisfied!

Society is changing and women today will not put up with this anymore. 

Successful marriages are when the men have adapted to this new reality. They have adapted not by being more female but by staying men and working to the right level. Not by asking a 50/50 marriage but by coming to the table and doing what is required.

I do not believe secure men are going to let women rule the world like I do not believe secure men are not going to share the power with women.

As it has been going since human exists, men are going to fight to pass their DNA down.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Yes, the world has changed. Some American men might be happier if they moved to a poor country and married and made a life there. They could have complete control over their wives, beat her if they are displeased with her, just treat her any old way, and she would probably have to submit. King of the castle and all that.

For everyone who stays, there is adjustment to the new reality. Women are getting more education and making more money. Many have accepted single motherhood and kids raised in daycare as normal. Men do seem optional. And I would urge a woman to consider a man optional if he is not a man of character. And a man of character is the only kind of man a woman should want in her life. That is the kind of man she can count on.

Men are not forced to marry. They are not forced to be in relationships with women. Porn is easily accessible, and some men do not even seem to need a woman.

I am advising my sons to avoid women who put a lot of emphasis on material things. I think they should take their time getting to know a girl, and then live with her for a few years before marrying. They would be wise to be as honest with her as possible, and expect, and be worthy of, transparency from her. 

They need to know their values, their goals, and their expectations, and be upfront about them with women. And they need to be able to end things if they and the women are not in honest agreement, no matter how much they are attracted to one another.

I am telling them the stories I read here about men who pay lifetime alimony to women who stayed home and had affairs. I am going to explain how many men only see their kids on the weekend. And I am always telling them to _look beyond the packaging._ That may be the biggest mistake both men and women make.

But ultimately it will be up to my boys what they decide to do with the info I am giving them. They are going to reap the consequences of their choices. But it is indeed only fair to explain them the rules of the game first.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"As it has been going since human exists, men are going to fight to pass their DNA down."

One doesn't need to get married or support a woman for life in order to pass on a little DNA. An employed Western man doesn't have to fight to pass on his DNA. He just has to quit saying, "no". Finding women to have sex with is the easiest thing in this life. Finding one you can live with is much harder.


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

For a man, passing DNA is not just having sex with any women. It is having the right mother to his children and having the right environment where they grow and blossom.

For a woman it is exactly the same.


----------



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Frankly, it did nothing for me and I felt it was ineffective as a metaphor. No offense to anyone.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The poll of the women on the large dating website considered 80% of the men on the site as below average. Tells you a lot. Men fail to live up to women's romantic expectations. Coincidentally, Mach has previous reported the research that states that women are only attracted to 20% of men.

Jld and Dug,

Have you discussed how likely your sons are to match your success?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> The poll of the women on the large dating website considered 80% of the men on the site as below average. Tells you a lot. Men fail to live up to women's romantic expectations. Coincidentally, Mach has previous reported the research that states that women are only attracted to 20% of men.
> 
> Jld and Dug,
> 
> ...


LW, I am not worried about my sons. They will be fine and they will do what is necessary to get the right girl (assuming they are all heterosexual).

My wife and I are raising our boys to be balanced human beings with good morals. They have inner strength and can adapt. When they leave our home they will be fully equipped to handle this world, women included.

Having a strong mother and an equally strong older sister has been a great influence on them .


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> The poll of the women on the large dating website considered 80% of the men on the site as below average. Tells you a lot. Men fail to live up to women's romantic expectations. Coincidentally, Mach has previous reported the research that states that women are only attracted to 20% of men.
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Women need to look at reality. A man's looks are not what is important. He cannot do much about it anyway, beyond losing weight and working out. 

Women ought to be thinking about what kind of man they would want to be with should they get paralyzed in a car accident, be the victim of a burn incident, or get a terrible cancer. Will she be able to count on him? Will he be good to her? That is what _ought_ to matter. 

I think marriage is serious business. I would never advise basing it on physical attraction. I cannot tell you how _risky_ I think that is.

You know, LW, I get a lot of criticism from men about being "misandrist" , and I am criticized by women for being "misogynist."  I think men and women have responsibilities in marriage. Problem is, women are even touchier than men. Some posts that I have made regarding how I think women could deal with their husbands have gotten some heavy criticism.

And I do think that fundamentally men are the key to marriage. Did you ever read my thread in LTS? MEM's post about Dug yesterday confirmed that to me. And India's comment on how men need to not let women get to them, while still respecting them, is spot on. That is how secure men deal with women.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Jld and Dug,
> 
> Have you discussed how likely your sons are to match your success?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


They have a wonderful role model in their father, LW. I had not even heard of that nice guy phenomenon before stumbling across marriage forums last fall. My boys, or at least the two older ones (the two younger are pretty small) are secure. They know their interests and their boundaries. I am very proud of them. 

You know our boys go to ballet school, right? They are used to dealing with girls. I went in to give something to my son one time, and one girl said something insulting to him, with other girls laughing, right in front of me. I was shocked.

Ds did not even flinch. Just let them say whatever they wanted, did his business with me, and went back to work. Totally unmoved. Reminded me of someone. 

I thought those girls were terribly behaved. I would be embarrassed if my daughter ever acted that way. And maybe this is the sort of thing, on a tiny scale, that the men here are complaining about in women.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I did not see that thread. I agree that the most stable relationships require respect and leadership. I have a couple of friends who just had their first child. They have a good relationship but their dynamic is not like yours. The guy has an irreverant sense of humor and is very kind. He is very sponanteous and social. He is tough. We play acontact sport together. She also plays and is even tougher mentally. She also kind and earnest. She is a leader and I think he defers to her judgment. 

He grew up in a bad neighborhood and worked as a manual laborer. She has a degree of some sort. After they became a couple he started going to university. Was it to raise his status to better match hers? He quit to support his infant daughter.

I would say that in their relationship she is the leader. I think they will be happy. She is not at all bossy. She has had a positive effect on his character. He has become firmer and more serious.

They will never cheat on each other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

