# Women reveal the REAL reasons they avoid sex with their partners



## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Interesting comments from women as to why they do not want to engage in sex with their partners...while some our understandable others are just sad. 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6139187/Women-reveal-avoid-sex-partners.html


Women from around the world revealed why they avoid sex with their partners 
Many claimed they no longer feel attracted to their significant other
Others shared concerns over their partner being too rough in bed

So i ask you all in sexless marriage...are these the reasons you hear?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

The hive mind concept always makes me chuckle. I'm so thankful when random women I've never met tell me exactly how I feel lol


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> The hive mind concept always makes me chuckle. I'm so thankful when random women I've never met tell me exactly how I feel lol


When men do that (or anything that even smells like it to a recipient), it's denounced as 'mansplaining.'

You mean women do that to each other? What's that called?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> The hive mind concept always makes me chuckle. I'm so thankful when random women I've never met tell me exactly how I feel lol


Why do you interpret that as anything other than them saying how they feel? Did you read it? No one is trying to tell anyone how to feel.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Do you really think these are the reasons given?

I would opine that a majority of the time, there is a level of dishonesty (from both the LD and the HD) over different things.

The LD not wanting to admit they are no longer attracted to their partner...or the HD saying that the LD always loves sex and O's every time...because the consequences of either is likely (mis)perceived as the end of their union.


Lostinthought61 said:


> Interesting comments from women as to why they do not want to engage in sex with their partners...while some our understandable others are just sad.
> 
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6139187/Women-reveal-avoid-sex-partners.html
> 
> ...


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## StuckInLove (Jun 6, 2017)

I find it interesting that many (most?) of those statements were about boyfriends, not husbands. I wonder if that is a factor. I would think that in MOST situations (not all), a husband is a person a woman feels more comfortable with and has worked through more of the difficulties of sex with him, vs a boyfriend who may feel like the whole situation is temporary. I know this isn't a universal blanket assessment, but I simply wonder if it's a factor.

As with most situations in a relationship, married or not, open communication is key. Not only is it important to communicate, but it's even more important to feel like you CAN communicate. I really wonder how many relationships are in turmoil simply because one party wants to communicate, but feels like they can't/shouldn't/are afraid to. I'm very lucky in this area, my W and I share everything and it's glorious.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

WoW, most of those obstacles could be overcome with open communication. We claim to want honesty but often don't allow people to be honest without them receiving harsh backlash. Maybe we need to push for more communication skills along with sex-ed.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

I bet the ones that are too tired were having wild monkey sex when they first met. They just need to be honest...they aren't attracted to their mates anymore.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Do you really think these are the reasons given?
> 
> I would opine that a majority of the time, there is a level of dishonesty (from both the LD and the HD) over different things.
> 
> ...


Reasons are nothing more than excuses from the truth.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

The reasons we hear would not include any of the reasons that might risk the marriage, so Rule those ones about not liking men, looking to start an affair, and so on.

Of the remaining reasons, the only one I hear is I'm tired. 

Some reasons not mentioned that would more likely relate to older women might be 
- It should be the man that initiates. I'm just waiting for him.
- That stuff is for kids, we have matured past that.
- My physiological problems (or my husbands problems) make sex a lot of work without enough reward.
- I don't want to get undressed just so we can get dressed again.

Some fairly ridiculous reasons that I still don't believe.
> 12 years ago he forgot to put out the trash . . . .
> I can't feel feminine with a man that isn't a full foot taller than me.
> He doesn't do his share of Child care, dishes, cooking, laundry . . . . . .

Some ridiculous reasons that I do believe (sadly)
Beer breath
Body odor
Nasty toenails, facial hair, body hair, crooked teeth . . . .


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

And how many of these women have the integrity and honesty to either end the relationship or do something about the problem (or leave if their attempts have failed?). It appears that none of those in the article do. Why is that?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> The reasons we hear would not include any of the reasons that might risk the marriage, so Rule those ones about not liking men, looking to start an affair, and so on.
> 
> Of the remaining reasons, the only one I hear is I'm tired.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's ridiculous for sex to be reduced due to not doing your share of life maintenance/child care, dishes, laundry, etc. If you start really resenting your partner because they aren't...well, partnering with you in life's chores, it's logical that sex might fall off. Who wants to have sex with a guy who sits back and lets you do it all??

Why is it sad someone could be put off by bad breath, really nasty toenails? 

I've seen some man feet in public in sandals that were completely, totally disgusting, I had to look away. I'm not talking structure, I'm talking unkept ****ing disgusting toenails. Totally preventable.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> And how many of these women have the integrity and honesty to either end the relationship or do something about the problem (or leave if their attempts have failed?). It appears that none of those in the article do. Why is that?


 I vote for selfishness

For, as evidenced by the post above my, some women make their men earne sex or see sex as some kind of currency they can use to extract whatever they want.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> I vote for selfishness
> 
> For, as evidenced by the post above my, some women make their men earne sex or see sex as some kind of currency they can use to extract whatever they want.


You are probably correct that it's selfishness. No doubt some of them cheat - again out of selfishness. And some of their partners probably cheat on them - out of selfishness and a sense of entitlement at being constantly rejected sexually, yet used for other things. It all just encourages an increasingly messy, unhealthy situation.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Why do so many of you decide that they must be lying or making crap up? Because women are crazy?? 

I stopped wanting sex with XH1 because sex with him sucked. It was ZERO fun and all about him. Add to that the fact that he ignored me most of the time, showed NO affection, had anger issues, drank too much, and let his hygiene go. He would actually come to bed grungy from work, wearing the shirt he wore to work, and he worked in a dirty shop with metal all day. What about this would make any woman WANT to have sex with him?? I decided I was never having sex with him (or any other man) again. There was no discussing this with him, because he couldnt handle being told anything negative or possibly critical of him, no matter how you tried to spin it. 

With XH2, we actually had good, enjoyable sex, for the most of our marriage. It took me a while to figure out why over time, my desire for him died. Well, he was the most critical person I ever knew.. he nitpicked me, insulted me, micromanaged me, put me down, criticized me constantly. Even when we were having regular sex, he pissed and moaned that we never had sex! (huh?? what??) He hated everything and everybody, especially women. Also when it came to sex, he got to the point that all he would do would be get into bed and grab my breast and shove his hand in my crotch. Wow, what a turn-on. I never came to the "never again" conclusion with him that I did my first husband, I fought myself for a long time trying to figure this out, assuming something was wrong with me.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Livvie said:


> I don't think it's ridiculous for sex to be reduced due to not doing your share of life maintenance/child care, dishes, laundry, etc. If you start really resenting your partner because they aren't...well, partnering with you in life's chores, it's logical that sex might fall off. Who wants to have sex with a guy who sits back and lets you do it all??
> 
> Why is it sad someone could be put off by bad breath, really nasty toenails?
> 
> I've seen some man feet in public in sandals that were completely, totally disgusting, I had to look away. I'm not talking structure, I'm talking unkept ****ing disgusting toenails. Totally preventable.


It is sad that a partner doesn't care enough to manage their breath before bed. As to the toenails. If it isn't structural, how is it totally preventable? I mean I trim my toenails before they start ripping my socks. But I don't buff or polish.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think it's ridiculous for sex to be reduced due to not doing your share of life maintenance/child care, dishes, laundry, etc. If you start really resenting your partner because they aren't...well, partnering with you in life's chores, it's logical that sex might fall off. Who wants to have sex with a guy who sits back and lets you do it all??
> ...


Hi, I don't have high standards in this area at all (I have never once in my life had a manicure or pedicure and the last time I painted my nails I was 16). I'm talking about talon like toe nails, jagged, and like...black with grime and grunge.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

A Daily Mail article, probably very well researched, good sampling of women representative of the female population, etc NOT!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

aine said:


> A Daily Mail article, probably very well researched, good sampling of women representative of the female population, etc NOT!


quoting Whisper... :laugh:


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

*Badsanta's Real Reason Why a Wife Refuses Sex*

1) It is just a sh¡t test just to see if the husband can keep his sh¡t together like a real man. If he complains = FAIL. If he is OK with it = FAIL. If he suddenly does something super romantic that reinforces a strong emotional connection in the relationship = PASS (wait he only did that because I refused sex = FAIL!)!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

badsanta said:


> *Badsanta's Real Reason Why a Wife Refuses Sex*
> 
> 1) It is just a sh¡t test just to see if the husband can keep his sh¡t together like a real man. If he complains = FAIL. If he is OK with it = FAIL. If he suddenly does something super romantic that reinforces a strong emotional connection in the relationship = *WUSS* (wait he only did that because I refused sex = FAIL!)!


Fixed that for you. :wink2:

So, basically, there is no way to "win" at this "game"? Aside from leaving and upgrading?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Fixed that for you. :wink2:
> 
> So, basically, there is no way to "win" at this "game"? Aside from leaving and upgrading?


Kindof...

In my opinion it is a manifestation of a woman's low self esteem which causes her to feel as if she is just being used for sex. 

YES the stereotypical male will perhaps use sex to try and reconnect with a spouse when the emotional connection has been disrupted. This will make things worse and validate a woman's low self esteem that her man does not make much of an effort to connect emotionally. A self fulfilling prophecy if you will. 

It is not a game and it can not be won. The only thing a man can do is to try and help improve his spouse's self esteem. Doing so may be counterintuitive as it may require validating a wife's false reasons of low self esteem. For example...

"I am overweight! - We can work on that together as I am too!"

If I were to disagree, she would get upset and accuse me of lying for the purpose of trying to manipulate her for more sex. If I validate her fears and transform them into a letting her know that I care about her... it seems to help.

Then when it comes to sex, I actually try to be confident and play hard to get. And OMG I am so bad at that it makes my wife laugh and giggle. Then she will taunt me to prove that I am not being honest by me pretending to be hard to get... and then one thing leads to another! 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Even if you just look at the attached article, there are LOTS of different reasons - its almost as if women were not all one person. 

I don't really see a pattern in the article, which includes "too tired" and "husband is a selfish lover" and " I have a low libido".

I expect all of these are true in some cases. Not sure what to conclude from this except "there are lots of different reasons some women don't want sex".


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Even if you just look at the attached article, there are LOTS of different reasons - its almost as if women were not all one person.
> 
> I don't really see a pattern in the article, which includes "too tired" and "husband is a selfish lover" and " I have a low libido".
> 
> I expect all of these are true in some cases. Not sure what to conclude from this except "there are lots of different reasons some women don't want sex".



Women are not all one person??? Stop saying things like that… you'll scare them


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Kindof...
> 
> In my opinion it is a manifestation of a woman's low self esteem which causes her to feel as if she is just being used for sex.
> 
> ...


:slap:

Sorry, but I really can't comprehend your relationship dynamic. Why is it bad for your wife to feel like she is being used for sex? Isn't that part of the deal...that you are a team that takes care of meeting each other's needs? Or is it a one sided relationship where you meet her needs and she decides which of your needs are important enough for her to deal with when she feels like it? 

Regarding your example about her being fat. Why not just agree with her? She knows she's fat, you know she's fat, I'm sure everyone that sees her knows the same thing, so why not just be direct and honest about it? How about saying, "yes babe, you're fat, but I still love you. So you can either be happy with your body or you can take action and change it, but you don't get to use it as an excuse to refuse having sex with me. If you're going to do that then I am not going to want to be around you." 

I know you have your relationship dynamic figured out to a point that you can live with it and someone like me (an outsider to your marriage) can't really understand what is going on. However, at it's core my best interpretation is that you are just a poor negotiator. She offered a crappy sex life and you accepted it, and it came with very strange terms for you to negotiate for sexual crumbs. If you were a better negotiator you wouldn't be in this situation because you wouldn't have accepted those terms, so she would either meet your terms or you'd end the relationship. 

I think at the core of women refusing sex is simply that they don't want to do it for whatever reason they have. All people, men and women, have the right to not have sex with a partner for any reason assuming they are willing to accept the natural consequences that go with it (e.g. unhappy spouse initiating divorce). Assuming the article was correct with their reasons, the fact remains that WHY someone doesn't want to have sex is really irrelevant because them choosing that action means that there are underlying serious issues in the relationship that need to be resolved or the relationship needs to end.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

It is funny, some women complain that they feel like they are used for sex. Some men complain because they feel like they aren't used for sex. Isn't that the whole reason that there are men and women in the first place?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Bananapeel said:


> :slap:
> 
> Sorry, but I really can't comprehend your relationship dynamic. Why is it bad for your wife to feel like she is being used for sex? Isn't that part of the deal...that you are a team that takes care of meeting each other's needs? Or is it a one sided relationship where you meet her needs and she decides which of your needs are important enough for her to deal with when she feels like it?


Intimacy in our relationship is not a negotiated arrangement of give and take. Instead it is a mutually "shared" exchange in which we enjoy celebrating our union. When that works there is no, "you do this for me and then I'll do this for you." Things just happen naturally and are mutually enjoyable. ...but admittedly that does not always work and we have to regress back to give and take to get a spark back going. 

When my wife claims she felt "used" it was in relation of her feeling my arousal was solely attributed to porn and I needed the use of a vagina nearby to satisfy an urge, and she just happened to be it since we were married. The reason she felt that way was because of low self esteem and low self image that had her convinced that it was not possible for me to be attracted to her anymore. Any claims I made to the contrary she then thought were lies for the purpose of me trying to manipulate her so that I could just use her for more sex. ...once I understood that what was going on, I have worked on her self confidence and that problem has been solved. My problem now if anything is that my wife now has become too confident, but I am not complaining about that!

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

badsanta said:


> It is not a game and it can not be won. The only thing a man can do is to try and help improve his spouse's self esteem. Doing so may be counterintuitive as it may require validating a wife's false reasons of low self esteem. For example...
> 
> "I am overweight! - We can work on that together as I am too!"
> 
> ...


Haha, I tried that line once and then she got pissed that I agreed she needed to lose weight. Its one of those things where you are Donkey F*ked either way. If I hear that again, I'm faking a seizure.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I think women decide to refuse sex for three basic reasons:

1. Personal issues - selfishness, self-esteem, prior shame over sex, etc.

2. Medical issues - hormone issues, menopausal symptoms, pain, chronic condition, etc.

3. Relational issues - an abusive spouse, an absent spouse, a really crappy spouse

Thing is, I think that MOST of the time it is a version of number one, while the women themselves OVER-use the number 3 category. Because let's be honest, a woman CAN address pretty much anything in numbers 1 and 2 if she wants to. Number 3 is more about how her spouse acts, so of course she will choose that one if she is okay with the sexless status quo.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> It is sad that a partner doesn't care enough to manage their breath before bed. As to the toenails. If it isn't structural, how is it totally preventable? I mean I trim my toenails before they start ripping my socks. But I don't buff or polish.


I just tell my Fiance to go use some mouthwash if her breath stinks and she starts kissing on me. If mine stinks, I expect she will do the same. 

As for toenails, yea mine are probably ugly. Can't do anything about it, so eff it. I'm a man, and not gonna start getting pedi's.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I think women decide to refuse sex for three basic reasons:
> 
> 1. Personal issues - selfishness, self-esteem, prior shame over sex, etc.
> 
> ...


What about the all to common they aren't attracted to him anymore (whether she admits it or not), though he may be a perfectly nice, good-humoured fellow...Does that fall into #1 or #3.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I think if he's an ass it's probably 3. Other than that I'd think 1.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> What about the all to common they aren't attracted to him anymore (whether she admits it or not), though he may be a perfectly nice, good-humoured fellow...Does that fall into #1 or #3.


Seeking simple answers to complex issues is never helpful. What does "admitting" she is not attracted to him anymore look like? How is that done with loving kindness? When I did it, it was ignored. The people who think their wives (husbands...) are sitting home making up reasons and excuses not to have sex because they are evil, selfish, awful people never stop to think what that even means. So you really feel you are married to an evil, selfish, awful person and that would be ok if s/he just ****ed you enthusiastically? It makes no sense.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Seeking simple answers to complex issues is never helpful. What does "admitting" she is not attracted to him anymore look like? How is that done with loving kindness? When I did it, it was ignored. The people who think their wives (husbands...) are sitting home making up reasons and excuses not to have sex because they are evil, selfish, awful people never stop to think what that even means. So you really feel you are married to an evil, selfish, awful person and that would be ok if s/he just ****ed you enthusiastically? It makes no sense.


I'm not saying they are evil or awful person. But I do wonder, if a woman no longer finds her husband attractive, but not because he's an ass, but maybe the opposite. A nice guy, does his fare share around the house, generally supportive, good tempered, but his wife just isn't into him anymore, even if they were once all over each other. Is that her being selfish or just one of those relationship issues where its time to throw in the towel?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I'm not saying they are evil or awful person. But I do wonder, if a woman no longer finds her husband attractive, but not because he's an ass, but maybe the opposite. A nice guy, does his fare share around the house, generally supportive, good tempered, but his wife just isn't into him anymore, even if they were once all over each other. Is that her being selfish or just one of those relationship issues where its time to throw in the towel?


It would be pure speculation. I have often thought that it would be enlightening as hell to have the wives from sexless marriages post their PoV. Alas, they don't. The nice guy, does fair share thing is just one element of marriage. The Nice Guy thing is another story. Not an ass is a pretty low bar. The idea of doing one's fair share has always made me want to slap someone. What the hell does that have to do with sex? Nothing until a partner doesn't. It is part of being a grown up. And wanting or needing pats on the back for being a grown up cohabitant of a domicile and being a parent is just yucky. But that is just relationship entry point. It has nothing to do with being sexy. Being fun and engaging...


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

personofinterest said:


> I think women decide to refuse sex for three basic reasons:
> 
> 1. Personal issues - selfishness, self-esteem, prior shame over sex, etc.
> 
> ...


Mega LIKE.
Nice breakdown. It is a much better list than the article. 

Now that thing about using a 3 to hide a 1, If we could just spot it early, we would have a better chance of salvage. In other words doing more dishes doesn't work, because #1 is still there.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> As to the toenails. If it isn't structural, how is it totally preventable? I mean I trim my toenails before they start ripping my socks. But I don't buff or polish.


The irony of someone named 'Mr. Nail' seeking proper nail hygiene guidance LOL


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I have a working theory, (as an old, short, fat man) that all people are attractive. But, that does not mean that all people are attracted to them. The reasons, may be shallow, selfish, prideful or on the other hand strong, healthy, safe. Attraction does change over time. The change in the level of attraction is not always due to the object of attraction changing. It is as likely that the attracted person has changed.

So to address @UpsideDownWorld11 's question. It could be one selfish, poor boundaries, or it could be 3 Lazy uncaring unsupportive spouse. And based on my experience with my SSRI it could be medical.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

. duplicate post


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> It would be pure speculation. I have often thought that it would be enlightening as hell to have the wives from sexless marriages post their PoV. Alas, they don't. The nice guy, does fair share thing is just one element of marriage. The Nice Guy thing is another story. Not an ass is a pretty low bar. The idea of doing one's fair share has always made me want to slap someone. What the hell does that have to do with sex? Nothing until a partner doesn't. It is part of being a grown up. And wanting or needing pats on the back for being a grown up cohabitant of a domicile and being a parent is just yucky. But that is just relationship entry point. It has nothing to do with being sexy. Being fun and engaging...


It could be he once was 'hunting' his wife and being sexy, fun and engaging. Then married, the dating stopped b/c the husband doesn't see the need for splurging unneccesarily with a mortgage and kids, unless its a special occasion. The urge to 'hunt' was put on the back-burner and the sexy, fun and engaging stopped and with it her attraction. But he still wants to have sex with her, because he has testosterone raging through his system, but she ain't having it. In short, he was alpha before marriage, now he's beta and that doesn't do it for her anymore. 

Then all the male commenters throw stones at him to stop being such a beta p*ssy and up his game or throw his wife out.

That's what I see over and over with guys that come here in sexless marriages or with a cheating wife (or both).


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

BigDigg said:


> The irony of someone named 'Mr. Nail' seeking proper nail hygiene guidance LOL


Funny.
from time to time it is a good idea to google your screen names just in case. A while ago I found that there is or was a male nail salon. Looked pretty good with the huge overstuffed leather chairs. 
As to my own nails, well I'm diabetic so my toes get a cleaning and inspection every day.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> It could be he once was 'hunting' his wife and being sexy, fun and engaging. Then married, the dating stopped b/c the husband doesn't see the need for splurging unneccesarily with a mortgage and kids, unless its a special occasion. The urge to 'hunt' was put on the back-burner and the sexy, fun and engaging stopped and with it her attraction. But he still wants to have sex with her, because he has testosterone raging through his system, but she ain't having it. In short, he was alpha before marriage, now he's beta and that doesn't do it for her anymore.
> 
> Then all the male commenters throw stones at him to stop being such a beta p*ssy and up his game or throw his wife out.
> 
> That's what I see over and over with guys that come here in sexless marriages or with a cheating wife (or both).


And the answer is? Let's say that the wife is not the one wanting more sex. That seems fair enough. The guy wants it. He stops doing the things to get it. So he should just want not to be sexy but still "get" sex. I mean. Blech. Do you have a suggestion to make? Don't game up. Don't be fun and sexy. Cuz you don't wanna. Fair. But the result is no sex. Pretty also fair. Throw his wife out does not make a great deal of sense since it seems she is not the one with the problem. He can do the serial monogamy thing where its all NRE till he gets complacent again, rinse and repeat.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Honestly, I think the beta thing is overblown. Most of the people who go and on about it seem to be using the woman who betrayed them as an excuse to be an ass.

I doubt many women are going to suddenly want their husbands more if he becomes an arrogant jackass.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> Funny.
> from time to time it is a good idea to google your screen names just in case. A while ago I found that there is or was a male nail salon. Looked pretty good with the huge overstuffed leather chairs.
> As to my own nails, well I'm diabetic so my toes get a cleaning and inspection every day.


It's a thing I guess...but maybe more common than you think. When Dwayne Wade (basketball star for those that don't know) was playing for my team he lived in my town and was often seen (by my wife and others) getting a pedi at the local place. A lot of athletes do that I guess but maybe makes sense given how important their feet are to them and the abuse they take.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > I think women decide to refuse sex for three basic reasons:
> ...


My opinion? If you're abusive or never there or a cheater, etc. It's probably #3.

If she says it's 3 and cites dishes and laundry, shes using 3 to hide 1.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Honestly, I think the beta thing is overblown. Most of the people who go and on about it seem to be using the woman who betrayed them as an excuse to be an ass.
> 
> I doubt many women are going to suddenly want their husbands more if he becomes an arrogant jackass.


The words are totally wrong. I agree. But when I hear "beta" I substitute passive, whiny man. I want seeeeex pleeeaaase. We're maaaarrriied. Often someone with a crap social life outside of home, and generally not much fun. When I hear "alpha" I substitute confident, fun, engaging, self motivated person who generally has a social life. ymmv.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly, I think the beta thing is overblown. Most of the people who go and on about it seem to be using the woman who betrayed them as an excuse to be an ass.
> ...


Oh I think your definitions make more sense.

But them.obsessed with it talk and in a way that sounds like:
Arrogant ass =alpha
Everyone not like me=beta


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Oh I think your definitions make more sense.
> 
> But them.obsessed with it talk and in a way that sounds like:
> Arrogant ass =alpha
> Everyone not like me=beta


I won't lie. I do think that just because someone says they aren't an arrogant ass does not make it so.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> I think women decide to refuse sex for three basic reasons:
> 
> 1. Personal issues - selfishness, self-esteem, prior shame over sex, etc.
> 
> ...


I don't agree with #3 at all. This is what many people use as a go to with an I'm not that bad attitude. For myself, I don't want to have sex with someone who holds the bar as low as "not crappy" in the spouse department.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Well, as a man, I wouldnt want to be with a woman who seriously thinks dirty dishes are a valid reason to withhold sex.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It would be very interesting, but its difficult to do. 

We do sometimes have posts from women who have lost interest in sex due to some issue with their partner. Often these are for completely valid reasons - they partners have become undesirable in some way that most people would recognize. 

Women who think that their partners are great in general, but who just don't want sex are not likely to post. Partly because many don't see there as being a problem to post about ( we have a great sex life, we had sex twice last month) , or because they know that their loss of interest is irrational and they don't want to be attacked. 

Who would post: My husband has a good paying, high status job, is physically attractive and fit. Flies airplanes, climbs mountains, and does charity work to help poor children. His friends think he's great and other women tell me how lucky I am to have him. He is a talented lover who will do whatever I like in bed. I just don't feel like sex with him.....

In general we only see one side of stories here - it just how things naturally work. 




NobodySpecial said:


> It would be pure speculation. I have often thought that it would be enlightening as hell to have the wives from sexless marriages post their PoV. Alas, they don't. The nice guy, does fair share thing is just one element of marriage. The Nice Guy thing is another story. Not an ass is a pretty low bar. The idea of doing one's fair share has always made me want to slap someone. What the hell does that have to do with sex? Nothing until a partner doesn't. It is part of being a grown up. And wanting or needing pats on the back for being a grown up cohabitant of a domicile and being a parent is just yucky. But that is just relationship entry point. It has nothing to do with being sexy. Being fun and engaging...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Who would post: My husband has a good paying, high status job, is physically attractive and fit. Flies airplanes, climbs mountains, and does charity work to help poor children. His friends think he's great and other women tell me how lucky I am to have him. He is a talented lover who will do whatever I like in bed. I just don't feel like sex with him.....


Because that situation does not exist. It is a nice fantasy that guys have in their heads. But it does not exist.

That is why I thought it would be enlightening to hear from the wives of the husbands doing the complaining. I would bet a dollar that the reasons and so-called excuses have been uttered before. And landed on deaf ears. I mean it's like life and marriage exists in 2 boxes for them [sex] and [everything else] where everything else is great (for them). This is not real life.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The problem is that no one seems to agree on what "alpha" and "beta" mean and that makes conversation impossible. 

For some, "alpha" means the sum of everything good. Talented, brave, self sacrificing when necessary, loving, loyal, etc etc. And "beta" means weak, selfish, whiny, useless. 

In that case, sure of course women don't want sex with beta.

Other people use alpha / beta to indicate the tradeoff between someone who values self over others, vs someone who values others over self. Alphas are "leaders" but leaders need to be willing to gain power at the cost to others. In this view, either extreme is bad, an extreme alpha is controlling and selfish, an extreme beta is a weak doormat. In this view, people need to balance the two traits. 

Unless people agree on terms, the whole alpha / beta thing is just confusing.




NobodySpecial said:


> The words are totally wrong. I agree. But when I hear "beta" I substitute passive, whiny man. I want seeeeex pleeeaaase. We're maaaarrriied. Often someone with a crap social life outside of home, and generally not much fun. When I hear "alpha" I substitute confident, fun, engaging, self motivated person who generally has a social life. ymmv.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> The problem is that no one seems to agree on what "alpha" and "beta" mean and that makes conversation impossible.
> 
> For some, "alpha" means the sum of everything good. Talented, brave, self sacrificing when necessary, loving, loyal, etc etc. And "beta" means weak, selfish, whiny, useless.
> 
> ...


The words are useless. I mean ... the definition of alpha actually IS Uhtred.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> Because that situation does not exist. It is a nice fantasy that guys have in their heads. But it does not exist.


Bull.

It may not be common, but it most certainly does exist. 

And to be clear, this is not a gender war post. There are guys out there with hot, funny, engaging, active, ready&willing wives who are still cheating or fapping to porn.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The Uhtred of the Saxon tales is one of the example "alphas". 

He is obviously sexy and desirable. OTOH, if you have read the stories, he is also a violent murderer. Someone like that could not live in modern society. He is in a world where physical prowess in battle, and physical courage are vital to success. (it also helps to have the author on your side...).

Still he is a nice prototype for one version of alpha. 







NobodySpecial said:


> The words are useless. I mean ... the definition of alpha actually IS Uhtred.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Bull.
> 
> It may not be common, but it most certainly does exist.
> 
> And to be clear, this is not a gender war post. There are guys out there with hot, funny, engaging, active, ready&willing wives who are still cheating or fapping to porn.


<Shrug> On another note, I thought fapping specifically referred to the activity of a man using his hand. Is this not correct?


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> <Shrug> On another note, I thought fapping specifically referred to the activity of a man using his hand. Is this not correct?


That's my understanding as well. 

Which goes to the heart of my point. Just as it's easy to say a healthy wife would not avoid sex with an attractive, supportive husband, its be equally easy to say a man with a hot and willing wife would never substitute porn . But we know that's not the case.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That's my understanding as well.
> 
> Which goes to the heart of my point. Just as it's easy to say *a healthy wife would not avoid sex with an attractive, supportive husband*, its be equally easy to say a man with a hot and willing wife would never substitute porn . But we know that's not the case.


Well, since I never said that, we are good.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> Well, since I never said that, we are good.


That seemed to be what you were implying in response to Uhtreds post. I assumed we weren't all taking his description of a hypothetical sexless man completely literally. He was to some degree exaggerating for effect. But the whole thrust of his post was that there are wonderful and attractive men who's wives don't want frequent sex. (And these are exactly the ones who don't post here).

To which you responded "that situation does not exist." Which sounds a lot like you are saying there are no attractive husbands being denied sex. Is that not what you were saying? If not, could you clarify what you actually were saying?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

uhtred said:


> The problem is that no one seems to agree on what "alpha" and "beta" mean and that makes conversation impossible.
> 
> For some, "alpha" means the sum of everything good. Talented, brave, self sacrificing when necessary, loving, loyal, etc etc. And "beta" means weak, selfish, whiny, useless.
> 
> ...


https://therationalmale.com/2012/02/21/defining-alpha/

https://therationalmale.com/2011/10/20/alpha/


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Seeking simple answers to complex issues is never helpful. What does "admitting" she is not attracted to him anymore look like? How is that done with loving kindness? When I did it, it was ignored. The people who think their wives (husbands...) are sitting home making up reasons and excuses not to have sex because they are evil, selfish, awful people never stop to think what that even means. So you really feel you are married to an evil, selfish, awful person and that would be ok if s/he just ****ed you enthusiastically? It makes no sense.


How is that done? She tells him the truth. You don't wine me and dine me like you did before. You don't go to the gym like you did before. You have lost some of your hair. Sorry to have to admit this, but I don't find you as attractive as I did before. If you want to have more sex, and I know you do, you need to up your game. I want to want you more. I want us to have more sex. I know it is important to you and I want to be there for you. But I simply can't unless you hit the gym and get more fit and more muscular and take me out to dinner on Saturday night even though that puts a crimp in our weekly budget.

And would everything be OK if my evil selfish wife was more enthusiastic about having sex with me? Maybe not totally OK, but a darn sight better and highly likely to be much more tolerable long term. Look, by definition we are talking about guys who are willing to compromise. Guys who wouldn't stand to be married to someone they consider selfish already left before we got to this point. So, among the guys who tolerated a lack of sex for a considerable time and stayed? Yes, their wife being enthusiastic about sex would probably make a huge difference to the guy even if he suspects he was played.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Because that situation does not exist. It is a nice fantasy that guys have in their heads. But it does not exist.
> 
> That is why I thought it would be enlightening to hear from the wives of the husbands doing the complaining. I would bet a dollar that the reasons and so-called excuses have been uttered before. And landed on deaf ears. I mean it's like life and marriage exists in 2 boxes for them [sex] and [everything else] where everything else is great (for them). This is not real life.


I do think that the "real" reason in many cases is lack of attraction. The sex is lousy. The guy is not all that physically attractive. Nothing in the sex or the guy's body does anything for her.

The guy can have a great job and help with housework and be a fabulous co-parent and have friends and a social life but he is a dud in bed. No more, no less. But more than enough for his wife to lose interest in having sex with him. I think THAT is real life.

Then you add in the women who have been raped / abused / molested / harassed who have a negative association with sex. Between those two reasons, you have a bunch of guys who can be decent husbands outside the bedroom but who are not going to inspire any sexual interest from their wife.

The guy's who are duds in the bedroom and physically weak can do something to improve themselves. The guy's who are partnered with someone who needs to overcome PTSD can't do much except be supportive if their wife chooses to work on her demons. But the first thing the wife needs to do is be honest with her husband about which "box" he is curled up in.

My wife is stuck with a husband who earns far less than she thought he would when they first got married. But so far she isn't willing to leave over it. Or get a job that maximizes her own income to help augment what i make. So she doesn't get to spend as much as she would like. She might think that is not fair to her. Some guy might think it is "unfair" that he has to hit the gym, get fit, and build muscle to "earn" sex from his wife. But that is life and if he isn't willing to leave over it, then he can either hit the gym or settle for less sex. Not his wife's fault. Not something she is doing to him. Just the natural consequences of his choice.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Holdingontoit said:


> How is that done? She tells him the truth. You don't wine me and dine me like you did before. You don't go to the gym like you did before. You have lost some of your hair. Sorry to have to admit this, but I don't find you as attractive as I did before. If you want to have more sex, and I know you do, you need to up your game. I want to want you more. I want us to have more sex. I know it is important to you and I want to be there for you. But I simply can't unless you hit the gym and get more fit and more muscular and take me out to dinner on Saturday night even though that puts a crimp in our weekly budget.
> 
> And would everything be OK if my evil selfish wife was more enthusiastic about having sex with me? Maybe not totally OK, but a darn sight better and highly likely to be much more tolerable long term. Look, by definition we are talking about guys who are willing to compromise. Guys who wouldn't stand to be married to someone they consider selfish already left before we got to this point. So, among the guys who tolerated a lack of sex for a considerable time and stayed? Yes, their wife being enthusiastic about sex would probably make a huge difference to the guy even if he suspects he was played.


I think the more likely outcome is the wife divorce him or finds an affair partner (or both). Its easier to blindside someone than tell them they don't get their motor going anymore. Kind of effed up.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> The reasons we hear would not include any of the reasons that might risk the marriage, so Rule those ones about not liking men, looking to start an affair, and so on.
> 
> Some ridiculous reasons that I do believe (sadly)
> Beer breath
> ...


To me these reasons would be enough for me to go sleep in the spare room. I definitely would not be near enough for sex with him. Part of my criteria for choosing/accepting him was because he does not drink or smoke so does not have to take extra care to reduce the smells of these two. Now my friend Jane's husband does smoke and Jane likes him smoking. She says it calms him down. Each to their own.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> I do think that the "real" reason in many cases is lack of attraction. The sex is lousy. The guy is not all that physically attractive. Nothing in the sex or the guy's body does anything for her.


 @Holdingontoit did you know that as we age that the human body creates organically natural instagram-like image filters to help us see our spouse extremely youthful and attractive? Pay attention to this photo... scientist imaged the retina of a 60 year old woman staring at her 75 year old husband and here is what he looks like to her without her wearing prescription glasses:










Now of course we can easily correct this by having the woman put on her glasses, but that is not what nature intended. I guess modern technology has created a problem.... Here is the same guy but with her wearing her glasses:










Regards, 
Badsanta


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

BigDigg said:


> It's a thing I guess...but maybe more common than you think. When Dwayne Wade (basketball star for those that don't know) was playing for my team he lived in my town and was often seen (by my wife and others) getting a pedi at the local place. A lot of athletes do that I guess but maybe makes sense given how important their feet are to them and the abuse they take.


Yeah, right.

He is there to get his feet played with and sexually date/score with the little people who fall over over professional athletes.

One cannot score if one does not go where ladies rest their cases.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Why do you say that doesn't exist when some people here are in roughly that situation. I'm not at all saying that it is the most common situation, but there are some women (and some men) who just don't want sex. 



NobodySpecial said:


> Because that situation does not exist. It is a nice fantasy that guys have in their heads. But it does not exist.
> 
> That is why I thought it would be enlightening to hear from the wives of the husbands doing the complaining. I would bet a dollar that the reasons and so-called excuses have been uttered before. And landed on deaf ears. I mean it's like life and marriage exists in 2 boxes for them [sex] and [everything else] where everything else is great (for them). This is not real life.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I quote from the "defining alpha" link
_Personally I believe Alpha-ness can, and does, have a concrete, objective definition. The problem arises when anyone asserts that they can definitively outline Alpha traits when it conflicts with the subjectiveness and ego-investments of those who define it personally for themselves. So we get a wide variety of what makes a man Alpha – he’s the guy of high moral character, princely ambition and integrity, as well as the self-important cad banging his wife and “their” girlfriend. They are BOTH Alpha. Thus I would propose that while certainly contextual, objective Alpha-ness is NOT exclusive to social status or personal integrity, but rather an attitude of expressly manifested traits. These can be innate or learned, but the definition is not dependent on moral grounds (or a lack of). A scoundrel and a champion can be equally Alpha or Beta in their own psyche’s._

If you read carefully you will see that neither that or the other paragraphs contains an actual definition. It just talks a lot about what alpha isn't. 




UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> https://therationalmale.com/2012/02/21/defining-alpha/
> 
> https://therationalmale.com/2011/10/20/alpha/


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

The people who have caused most of the problem with term "alpha" are the ones who use it to erroneously describe their own overblown and overbearing egos.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

"Alpha" and "Beta" take on individual definitions depending upon one's experience.

If a guy is unsuccessful with dating and women in general, he likely will describe himself as "beta", even though he may be quite constitutionally strong, a sacrificial husband, a hard worker, a good "provider"....all the things which make women want to marry him. 

However, the very same women who want to, and do, marry him, tell him "...you're not the kind of guy women go for...." when it comes to sexuality, while they make comments in "code" to each other about other guys who are successful at dating and get laid on the first date, in ways they would never, ever make comments about the husbands they married because of his "other qualities" which are "more important".....to them.....

This guy will judge himself a "beta", and the ones his wife makes comments about an "alpha". At least, that is a more palatable understanding, than his wife is a self-interested, shallow, who-cares-about-you con artist who should have never accepted his proposal, and if she did make this mistake, take responsibility and ownership of it, rather than playing a decades-long game of sexual avoidance except when "necessary" to "keep" him.

The REAL reason why she avoids sex is that she "is just not that into" him...... except, of course, when she wants a baby.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are entire discussion boards for people who do not feel sexual desire under conditions where most people would. I assume that they are not all lying. 

Clearly some people are sexually attracted to the opposite gender, or to the same gender, or to both genders. Why is it strange that some would be attracted to neither?

This is not one-size-fits-all. There are many reasons people don't want sex in their relationships. I don't see any reason to think that it follows a simple pattern.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

It's fine to be asexual......

Until you marry someone SEXUAL and expect them to do without


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

75 posts and nary a mention of culture or family of origin...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

john117 said:


> 75 posts and nary a mention of culture or family of origin...


I consider that #1


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agreed - but asexual is a rather new concept, I think many didn't realize that their were not usual. 



personofinterest said:


> It's fine to be asexual......
> 
> Until you marry someone SEXUAL and expect them to do without


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I can see how it might be possible for a woman not to realize her lack of desire for sex was unusual. I find it almost impossible to believe that a man would not know it was weird for him not to need or want sex.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

badsanta said:


> @Holdingontoit did you know that as we age that the human body creates organically natural instagram-like image filters to help us see our spouse extremely youthful and attractive? Pay attention to this photo... scientist imaged the retina of a 60 year old woman staring at her 75 year old husband and here is what he looks like to her without her wearing prescription glasses:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Different ears and different eyebrows and he turned into Ray Liotta. Those are some GLASSES!


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> I can see how it might be possible for a woman not to realize her lack of desire for sex was unusual. I find it almost impossible to believe that a man would not know it was weird for him not to need or want sex.




Divorced one. They are out there. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Divorced one. They are out there.


Please tell us you had him eartipped by the humane society so that others can easily recognize that he is not among the reproductive population before you released him back into the wild?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Please tell us you had him eartipped by the humane society so that others can easily recognize that he is not among the reproductive population before you released him back into the wild?


I think they need more than eartipping... and the women... :laugh:


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I see how it can happen. 

Starts with a girl raised by old fashioned parents who constantly warn them about how "boys just want one thing".

The the see lots of articles about how" over-sexed" our media has become, and how sex is just "used to sell things".

Throw in a dash of "Disney romance" where the princess may look longingly at the prince or even give him a kiss after he's slayed a a few dragons, but the clothes stay on. Same for many romances aimed at younger people - they date, they kiss......then the scene fades and its next morning. 

In a sense its like being in a political bubble - its easy to find information that supports what you believe. In the case of an asexual woman, that is backed up by her own lack of desire which she assumes is completely normal for women. 


Its less common, but I think men can fall into the same category. They don't believe that all this sex on tv and all these strange things like .... "oral sex" are something real people do. Its just porn-sex. Real people have missionary position sex once in a while until they have a baby. 


Especially with modern communication, its possible to find material to support pretty much any point of view you might have. 





personofinterest said:


> I can see how it might be possible for a woman not to realize her lack of desire for sex was unusual. I find it almost impossible to believe that a man would not know it was weird for him not to need or want sex.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Please tell us you had him eartipped by the humane society so that others can easily recognize that he is not among the reproductive population before you released him back into the wild?




Haha. I wish I could have tagged him. He started dating a lady shortly after I moved out and she seems nice (creeped her on FB). She looks a lot like me and we share similar hobbies. She appears very kind, upbeat and outgoing. Shouldn’t take long for him to suck the happy out of her. lol 

I feel bad for her getting involved in his mess but it isn’t my business. She seems smart so I hope she figures it out before she gets too emotionally invested. 

But then again, perhaps she isn’t into sex either. You never know. Supposedly there is someone for everyone. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Divorced one. They are out there.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh believe me, me too. But I still cannot believe he actually thought no sex was normal.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

uhtred said:


> I quote from the "defining alpha" link
> _Personally I believe Alpha-ness can, and does, have a concrete, objective definition. The problem arises when anyone asserts that they can definitively outline Alpha traits when it conflicts with the subjectiveness and ego-investments of those who define it personally for themselves. So we get a wide variety of what makes a man Alpha – he’s the guy of high moral character, princely ambition and integrity, as well as the self-important cad banging his wife and “their” girlfriend. They are BOTH Alpha. Thus I would propose that while certainly contextual, objective Alpha-ness is NOT exclusive to social status or personal integrity, but rather an attitude of expressly manifested traits. These can be innate or learned, but the definition is not dependent on moral grounds (or a lack of). A scoundrel and a champion can be equally Alpha or Beta in their own psyche’s._
> 
> If you read carefully you will see that neither that or the other paragraphs contains an actual definition. It just talks a lot about what alpha isn't.


Check out the second link and he pinpoints an example of 'Alpha'. https://therationalmale.com/2011/10/20/alpha/

_Alpha is mindset, not a demographic._

_Alpha is as Alpha does, it isn’t what we say it is. There are noble Alphas and there are scoundrel Alphas, the difference is all in how they apply themselves. There’s a tendency to approach every “Alpha” argument from what a guy thinks is righteousness; ergo, his personal definition of Alpha is what appeals best to his sense of virtue. He earned his Alpha cred, played by the rules, and by God people (women) should respect that. However, the sad truth is that prisons are full of Alpha males who simply channeled their drive toward destructive and anti-social endeavors. There are plenty of examples of indifferent ******* Alphas who you wouldn’t say are upstanding moral leaders at all, yet women will literally kill each other (or themselves) in order to bang them because they exude a natural Alpha-ness. Just as Corey does here. There are Alpha drug dealing gang leaders, and there are Alpha husbands, fathers and leaders of industry. It’s all in the application. Genghis Khan was Alpha as ****, and a leader-of-men, but probably would be on most people’s ********* list for that era. _

I don't think there is a simple definition, its somewhere between Leaders of Men and Societal Scumbags. If I were to pinpoint a characteristic, I would say it likely follows people who are slightly narcissistic and many who have an IDGAF attitude.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> I would say it likely follows people who are *slightly narcissistic and many who have an IDGAF attitude*.


And this is the issue. Many women will be attracted to a man who is confident. But no healthy healthy woman wants to spend long term time with the bolded. Of course, if the so-called-alphas goal is to nail as many chicks as he can, maybe that doesn't matter. But if he actually wants a real relationship with a good, healthy woman....maybe the jackassery isn't the way to go 

It's been my experience that a lot of people who beat the alpha drum on forums combine the above bolded with a healthy dislike of females in general based on "Barbra who hurt me years ago."

That isn;t alpha, that's just a need for counseling lol


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agree that Genghis Kahn was alpha by any reasonable definition. Interestingly he also raped vast numbers of women - suggesting that he was not himself all that attractive to women. He was a very effective leader, but one of the worst human beings in history.

"Alpha" seems to imply self-confidence. Beyond that though, there seems to be a huge variation in how people interpret it. Some alphas are leaders, some are in prison. Some leaders are not alpha - so I don't see how that correlates. Some alphas are selfish, some selfless. Is the alpha the foot soldier running into battle, or the general who ordered him to go to battle? Is he the manager that sacrifices his employees to move up the chain, or the manager who protects the people who work for him to the detriment of his own career? Is he loyal to women, or does he drop them as soon as they fail to satisfy him? Is he a skilled negotiator who convinces people do to do what is needed, or does he work by threats? Does he have the self confidence to drive a compact car, or does he drive a truck with big knobbly tires so that everyone knows how rough and tough he is? Does he hold is wife's purse because he isn't concerned that someone will think he is a "girl" or "p-whipped", or does he refuse to hold her purse because that isn't something a "man" does?






UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Check out the second link and he pinpoints an example of 'Alpha'. https://therationalmale.com/2011/10/20/alpha/
> 
> _Alpha is mindset, not a demographic._
> 
> ...


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Agree that Genghis Kahn was alpha by any reasonable definition. Interestingly he also raped vast numbers of women - suggesting that he was not himself all that attractive to women. He was a very effective leader, but one of the worst human beings in history.
> 
> "Alpha" seems to imply self-confidence. Beyond that though, there seems to be a huge variation in how people interpret it. Some alphas are leaders, some are in prison. Some leaders are not alpha - so I don't see how that correlates. Some alphas are selfish, some selfless. Is the alpha the foot soldier running into battle, or the general who ordered him to go to battle? Is he the manager that sacrifices his employees to move up the chain, or the manager who protects the people who work for him to the detriment of his own career? Is he loyal to women, or does he drop them as soon as they fail to satisfy him? Is he a skilled negotiator who convinces people do to do what is needed, or does he work by threats? Does he have the self confidence to drive a compact car, or does he drive a truck with big knobbly tires so that everyone knows how rough and tough he is? Does he hold is wife's purse because he isn't concerned that someone will think he is a "girl" or "p-whipped", or does he refuse to hold her purse because that isn't something a "man" does?


These are excellent questions. I think anytime you have lessened your character, you have also become less alpha


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

uhtred said:


> I quote from the "defining alpha" link
> _Personally I believe Alpha-ness can, and does, have a concrete, objective definition. The problem arises when anyone asserts that they can definitively outline Alpha traits when it conflicts with the subjectiveness and ego-investments of those who define it personally for themselves. So we get a wide variety of what makes a man Alpha – he’s the guy of high moral character, princely ambition and integrity, as well as the self-important cad banging his wife and “their” girlfriend. They are BOTH Alpha. Thus I would propose that while certainly contextual, objective Alpha-ness is NOT exclusive to social status or personal integrity, but rather an attitude of expressly manifested traits. These can be innate or learned, but the definition is not dependent on moral grounds (or a lack of). A scoundrel and a champion can be equally Alpha or Beta in their own psyche’s._
> 
> If you read carefully you will see that neither that or the other paragraphs contains an actual definition. It just talks a lot about what alpha isn't.





uhtred said:


> Agree that Genghis Kahn was alpha by any reasonable definition. Interestingly he also raped vast numbers of women - suggesting that he was not himself all that attractive to women. He was a very effective leader, but one of the worst human beings in history.
> 
> "Alpha" seems to imply self-confidence. Beyond that though, there seems to be a huge variation in how people interpret it. Some alphas are leaders, some are in prison. Some leaders are not alpha - so I don't see how that correlates. Some alphas are selfish, some selfless. Is the alpha the foot soldier running into battle, or the general who ordered him to go to battle? Is he the manager that sacrifices his employees to move up the chain, or the manager who protects the people who work for him to the detriment of his own career? Is he loyal to women, or does he drop them as soon as they fail to satisfy him? Is he a skilled negotiator who convinces people do to do what is needed, or does he work by threats? Does he have the self confidence to drive a compact car, or does he drive a truck with big knobbly tires so that everyone knows how rough and tough he is? Does he hold is wife's purse because he isn't concerned that someone will think he is a "girl" or "p-whipped", or does he refuse to hold her purse because that isn't something a "man" does?


Yes but you are imposing morality onto Alpha. That has nothing to do with what is alpha. You can be a total trash of a human being and be Alpha. You can be an upstanding human being and be alpha. Its amoral and all about application. So, I think he can be all those examples you listed above when its in his *self-interest* to do so. Its not about the car you drive or position you hold, its not about doing or not doing something because it appears too beta. But, I really don't see an Alpha holding a woman's purse for any conceivable reason, only because he has no self-interest in doing so.

Of course, we are talking about pure Alpha. Most of us have some Beta in us, that is required to maintain jobs and relationships.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I think they need more than eartipping... and the women...


RFID works well...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's 2018. People still believe in the alpha beta bull****?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

john117 said:


> It's 2018. People still believe in the alpha beta bull****?


Millions of men wanting to get laid more do!


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

uhtred said:


> "Alpha" seems to imply self-confidence.


Yes, self confidence is an attribute which identifies "alpha"..... and, it is an attribute which is gained by experience. 

A guy who has had 15 girlfriends by the age of 20 is likely to be extremely self-confident. He will bang another 25 chicks before age 35.

A guy who couldn't make out in a *****house with a $100 bill is not likely to be self-confident at all, even at age 35, because he will most likely be married to a woman who doesn't want sex with him because he's not self-confident. He will have had one or two one-night stands, and once-per-month duty sex since marriage.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Of course, we are talking about pure Alpha. Most of us have some Beta in us, that is required to maintain jobs and relationships.


Of course, this statement reflects morality too. It implies that pure alpha thinks only of himself, making some beta necessary to function in a society.

I would posit that a man who only thinks of himself is not that way because he is alpha, but because he is a jerk 

Although it DOES explain why men on forums how only think of themselves and describe treating women like crap assume that means they are alpha.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Millions of men wanting to get laid more do!


And here is the distinction. Men who base their worth on how much lay they get will buy heavily into this, along with RedPill, PUA, etc.

Men whose goal is a healthy long term relationship will understand that the above philosophies aren't as valuable as the bedpost-notch guy thinks they are


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Doesn't that make an alpha selfish and self serving - which isn't typically attractive to women?

You don't see an alpha holding a woman purse while she steps onto a rocking boat at a dock so that she has both hands free to avoid falling? Or holding it because she she needs a free hand to unlock a car door, or to get an umbrella out in the rain or put on a heavy coat? What if she is tired from climbing all the steps in an Italian hill town? Or you are in a city where drive by motor-scooter purse slash / grabs are common - sometimes badly injuring the person holding the purse. 





UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Yes but you are imposing morality onto Alpha. That has nothing to do with what is alpha. You can be a total trash of a human being and be Alpha. You can be an upstanding human being and be alpha. Its amoral and all about application. So, I think he can be all those examples you listed above when its in his *self-interest* to do so. Its not about the car you drive or position you hold, its not about doing or not doing something because it appears too beta. But, I really don't see an Alpha holding a woman's purse for any conceivable reason, only because he has no self-interest in doing so.
> 
> Of course, we are talking about pure Alpha. Most of us have some Beta in us, that is required to maintain jobs and relationships.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Is alpha really about getting laid? Getting laid is easy - a simple financial transaction will get you an evening with a young beautiful woman in just about any major city on the planet. Or if you prefer a long term contract. If getting laid is the goal, why go to all this other work.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Millions of men wanting to get laid more do!


Keep believing then


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"Yes, self confidence is an attribute which identifies "alpha"..... and, it is an attribute which is gained by experience. "

In wolves, perhaps.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Is alpha really about getting laid? Getting laid is easy - a simple financial transaction will get you an evening with a young beautiful woman in just about any major city on the planet. Or if you prefer a long term contract. If getting laid is the goal, why go to all this other work.


Well, if you want a prostitute and a shot at prison time, then by all means... Or you can learn game and get laid regularly with a variety of women without unloading $200-$500 a night.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

personofinterest said:


> And here is the distinction. Men who base their worth on how much lay they get will buy heavily into this, along with RedPill, PUA, etc.
> 
> Men whose goal is a healthy long term relationship will understand that the above philosophies aren't as valuable as the bedpost-notch guy thinks they are


Actually ... the men in long term, healthy, sexually active relationships intrinsically understand *a set* of the philosophies outlined in those concepts are extraordinarily valuable. Trust me. 


I pretty much default to this now; pay attention to what someone DOES that is or isn't attractive. What they talk about doing or not doing behavior-wise doesn't much matter.

I had a wife that developed a straight up sexual aversion to me. The thought of holding hands made her cringe. Some of her reasons for not wanting sex were valid and health related. But at the end of the day none of that mattered once she lost attraction.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Your odds of going to prison for hiring an escort are tiny in most of the world. For some strange reason politicians aren't big fans of imprisoning people who pay for high end call girls. I wonder why.......


So its $1K for a nice evening. Seems like an alpha would man-up and get a job that could easily support that. 



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well, if you want a prostitute and a shot at prison time, then by all means... Or you can learn game and get laid regularly with a variety of women without unloading $200-$500 a night.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I don't want this thread that is refined around distinct reasons that women choose to avoid sex, to get derailed into an Alpha/Beta, Redpill, Game, back and forth. It is certainly related, but probably best served by creating a separate thread in Men's Club. Plenty of folks here that can address those questions with personal experience.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Doesn't that make an alpha selfish and self serving - which isn't typically attractive to women?



Are we talking about relationship material or f-king material? Thats the distinction. I think you have to have a decent amount of beta qualities to be able to have a healthy relationship, atleast in this day and age (maybe not in cavemen times) otherwise its likely you will have a large power imbalance.

As far as PUA types, they are selfish and self serving and it comes off as cocky, but obviously they have lots of sex with lots of women. That seems to be their short terms goals and it works for them. Many eventually move on to a serious relationship and get in touch with their inner beta.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Your odds of going to prison for hiring an escort are tiny in most of the world. For some strange reason politicians aren't big fans of imprisoning people who pay for high end call girls. I wonder why.......
> 
> 
> So its $1K for a nice evening. Seems like an alpha would man-up and get a job that could easily support that.


Yea, but I think you can understand the difference between getting a woman to want to have sex with you versus paying a woman to have sex with you. These men want to hunt.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

The more I read about the aforementioned these men, the less impressed I am with them LO

Deejo's post about the alpha type traits that are retained in a relationship makes sense to me. My husband is what I would consider an alpha in that he is confident, assertive, masculine, and instinctively leads our relationship. However, he is not an arrogant a** who makes sure he puts me in my place and tells me how it's gonna be.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Hmm. To me PUA type tricks are similar to paying for sex. Both are ways to get women who wouldn't normally want sex with you to want it. (in one case due to lucrative financial compensation). 

I can see though how PUA is a sort of game and some people might enjoy it for the sake of the game. 



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Yea, but I think you can understand the difference between getting a woman to want to have sex with you versus paying a woman to have sex with you. These men want to hunt.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm not sure its actually off topic. There are a number of men who believe that when a woman doesn't want sex with her partner, it is because he is not "alpha" enough ,and needs to "man up" etc.

I don't agree with that but it is a commonly held opinion and so seems worth discussing. 

But maybe the thread has just run out of juice. Other than the people who believe it has to do with alpha-related stuff, I haven't seen any real pattern.




Deejo said:


> I don't want this thread that is refined around distinct reasons that women choose to avoid sex, to get derailed into an Alpha/Beta, Redpill, Game, back and forth. It is certainly related, but probably best served by creating a separate thread in Men's Club. Plenty of folks here that can address those questions with personal experience.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I agree that referencing lack of particular behaviors or the abundance of undesirable behavior is certainly in alignment with why some women's sexual desire diminishes or vanishes. 

Just throwing out my piece that if folks want to discuss whether Alpha/Man-up stuff has any validity in and of itself, or what it consists of, that discussion would be better served on it's own.

No harm, no foul for the time being.


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## msrv23 (Jul 14, 2017)

.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Haha. I wish I could have tagged him. He started dating a lady shortly after I moved out and she seems nice (creeped her on FB). She looks a lot like me and we share similar hobbies. *She appears very kind, upbeat and outgoing. Shouldn’t take long for him to suck the happy out of her. lol
> 
> I feel bad for her getting involved in his mess but it isn’t my business. She seems smart so I hope she figures it out before she gets too emotionally invested. *
> 
> But then again, perhaps she isn’t into sex either. You never know. Supposedly there is someone for everyone. k



Did you at least leave a few clues behind in the house for her? Like a journal or something stashed in a sewing room with your inner most thoughts...


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Did you at least leave a few clues behind in the house for her? Like a journal or something stashed in a sewing room with your inner most thoughts...




Well the house got sold so...

Maybe I should just send her an anonymous link to TAM with my user name 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Well the house got sold so...
> 
> Maybe I should just send her an anonymous link to TAM with my user name
> 
> ...




Now that I think about it, I should have put a sticky note on his Viagra script saying it’s probably out of date. Don’t bother buying more 🤣


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

I often think that people who are in relationships under 5 years or so and are having good sex aren't really qualified to give advice on what it takes to maintain good sex in a marriage. Any decent relationship can maintain good intimacy at the beginning. If it's not good, then the relationship won't last anyway. But after 7, 10, 20 years, what it takes to maintain good sex changes a lot. The natural, effortless, passionate sex you had at the beginning *will* fade as the relationship progresses. If your relationship is still at the early stages, then the state of the intimacy at that time isn't completely indicative of what it will be later on.

We sometimes see that here when people get divorced and then are raving about the sex they are having in their months-old relationship. It's to be expected that the sex in a new relationship is at a completely different level than the previous multi-decade relationship. But if they expect that same level to continue as the relationship progresses, they will likely be once again disappointed.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

wilson said:


> I often think that people who are in relationships under 5 years or so and are having good sex aren't really qualified to give advice on what it takes to maintain good sex in a marriage. Any decent relationship can maintain good intimacy at the beginning. If it's not good, then the relationship won't last anyway. But after 7, 10, 20 years, what it takes to maintain good sex changes a lot. The natural, effortless, passionate sex you had at the beginning *will* fade as the relationship progresses. If your relationship is still at the early stages, then the state of the intimacy at that time isn't completely indicative of what it will be later on.
> 
> We sometimes see that here when people get divorced and then are raving about the sex they are having in their months-old relationship. It's to be expected that the sex in a new relationship is at a completely different level than the previous multi-decade relationship. But if they expect that same level to continue as the relationship progresses, they will likely be once again disappointed.


We also see here people who get divorced and are talking about their good sex life now that they NEVER HAD even at the beginning of their previous relationship, it was never all that hot. They chose differently the second time around.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Livvie said:


> We also see here people who get divorced and are talking about their good sex life now that they NEVER HAD even at the beginning of their previous relationship, it was never all that hot. They chose differently the second time around.


If they're comparing the sex in the 2 relationships at the same point in time in the 2 relationships, then that's a valid comparison. If someone had bad sex from the beginning in their 1st relationship, then it's a great sign that their 2nd relationship has good sex. But that person should keep in mind that it may have little or no bearing on how the sex is after decades with their partner. Especially after coming off of a relationship where they had was bad sex. They may falsely assume that since the sex is good in the new relationship, it will always be just as good. It might be, but things might also change.

The easiest way for someone to have a lifetime of awesome sex is to go from relationship to relationship. The sex is always great at first, and when it fades or doesn't meet your requirements, break up and move to a new relationship. But the cost is that it's unlikely you'll have a life-long relationship with anyone.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Livvie said:


> We also see here people who get divorced and are talking about their good sex life now that they NEVER HAD even at the beginning of their previous relationship, it was never all that hot. They chose differently the second time around.


Yet second marriages fail even more so than first marriages...

Regardless, we know better next time around, or so we think.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

john117 said:


> Regardless, we know better next time around, or so we think.


That, right there. For sure.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

john117 said:


> Yet second marriages fail even more so than first marriages...
> 
> Regardless, we know better next time around, or so we think.


One factor in the failure is that the person has already been through all the headaches from before. When it's your first time, you are eternally hopeful that things will work out and you keep trying year after year before giving up. If the same problems crop up in your second relationship, you're probably a lot less likely or motivated to go through all that futile effort to fix things.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

wilson said:


> I often think that people who are in relationships under 5 years or so and are having good sex aren't really qualified to give advice on what it takes to maintain good sex in a marriage. Any decent relationship can maintain good intimacy at the beginning. If it's not good, then the relationship won't last anyway. But after 7, 10, 20 years, what it takes to maintain good sex changes a lot. The natural, effortless, passionate sex you had at the beginning *will* fade as the relationship progresses. If your relationship is still at the early stages, then the state of the intimacy at that time isn't completely indicative of what it will be later on.
> 
> We sometimes see that here when people get divorced and then are raving about the sex they are having in their months-old relationship. It's to be expected that the sex in a new relationship is at a completely different level than the previous multi-decade relationship. But if they expect that same level to continue as the relationship progresses, they will likely be once again disappointed.


Well I'm 22+ years in with my current ongoing long term sexual relationship (19+ years married), and I still enjoy natural, effortless and passionate sex. That is more varied than it was at the beginning, while being at a similar high frequency as it has always been throughout this relationship.

I expected that I would enjoy the same level to continue as this sexual relationship progresses, and have unsurprisingly not been disappointed that it has.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

wilson said:


> One factor in the failure is that the person has already been through all the headaches from before. When it's your first time, you are eternally hopeful that things will work out and you keep trying year after year before giving up. If the same problems crop up in your second relationship, you're probably a lot less likely or motivated to go through all that futile effort to fix things.


I'm on my second marriage (her first) and it has done far better than my first. Which saw my ex-wife and I separated just before our first wedding anniversary and divorced a little over a year later after that. I wasn't inclined then to keep trying when I thought it was not worth my effort. And am still not inclined to do the same today if I again find myself in a marriage that I consider not worth the effort.

In my experience a great marriage comes very easily, bad marriages are the ones that are hard work.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If a great marriage came easy, we wouldn't have a staggering divorce rate... 

Ten years ago I might have said the same thing. Not today. The key to a great marriage is to not marry a super achiever who can't spell the word "compromise"... Non achievers occasionally are like that too, but by and large not so great marriages often have different socioeconomic conditions than great ones.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

john117 said:


> If a great marriage came easy, we wouldn't have a staggering divorce rate...


Of course a great marriage comes easily. If ones marriage requires lots of effort and work to make it tenable, then it is evident one is in the wrong marriage or they're doing it wrong.

It's how one can tell the difference between them both.



john117 said:


> Ten years ago I might have said the same thing. Not today. The key to a great marriage is to not marry a super achiever who can't spell the word "compromise"... Non achievers occasionally are like that too, but by and large not so great marriages often have different socioeconomic conditions than great ones.


My wife is a super achiever, educated and accomplished who rarely compromises. While I am accomplished at what I do as well and am for the most part also relentless and unyielding. Elsewhere you carry on about family of origin, cultural, ethnic differences and the like. Yet my wife comes from a different culture, has a different first language and all the things that you have cited in the past, yet our marriage is great.

One big difference though is there has been no mental illness, or Aspergers in my marriage, which must make a big difference in terms of outcome.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You forget the amount of luck involved. And the crystal ball.

See, for 25 years we were like that too. But at age 50 or so, a perfect storm happened. 

I do find the part about cultural compatibility difficult to believe especially with wide variety between the cultures. Norway and Germany is a bit different than Estonia and Turkmenistan... It works up to a point, but it's not the cakewalk most people think it is. No wonder divorce rates are higher. 

Glad it worked out for you.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> You forget the amount of luck involved. And the crystal ball.
> 
> See, for 25 years we were like that too. But at age 50 or so, a perfect storm happened.
> 
> ...


My wife and myself come from 2 different European countries... one in Northern Europe (wife), one in Southern Europe (myself). When I was young, I firmly believed that cultural differences could be easily overcome. And we did this for 15 years. Then, when the marriage got difficult, the cultural and social differences became more apparent. I can't explain this. But the socio-cultural gap became a lot bigger. I guess when you are having a difficult time with your partner, everything about yourself/partner gets amplified, even little things like refusing to eat your dinner at 5pm... :smile2:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well in Uzbekistan the national sport is horseback soccer using a goat's head for a ball (*) try topping that Tom Brady 

I mean, prior to meeting her I had no idea WTF her country is on the map, let alone local culture and such... Or time with family to observe dynamics. 

(*) I think it's Uzbekistan maybe I got my goat's mixed up.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

john117 said:


> Well in Uzbekistan the national sport is horseback soccer using a goat's head for a ball (*) try topping that Tom Brady
> 
> I mean, prior to meeting her I had no idea WTF her country is on the map, let alone local culture and such... Or time with family to observe dynamics.
> 
> *(*) I think it's Uzbekistan maybe I got my goat's mixed up.*




Too funny! Thanks for the laugh.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Maybe NCAA should add this as a division I team sport... Who cares about Ohio State or Auburn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzkashi

Thing is, cultural artifacts may creep up decades into a marriage. My dear s-wife had no issue sacking up with me in grad school, but if her daughter pulled the same thing today, she's likely to end up as the football in Buzkashi...

Not to mention attitudes towards sex or affection later in life or in general for SOME cultures. Between family and culture, it's a powder keg for very brave or very lucky people.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

john117 said:


> You forget the amount of luck involved. And the crystal ball.


Not at all, random good or bad happenstance plays a significant factor. as well.

As to the crystal ball, meh. That's what high-order interpersonal skills are for.



john117 said:


> See, for 25 years we were like that too. But at age 50 or so, a perfect storm happened.


We're very close to 50 and know things can change significantly without warning. Both of us have had to face our own mortality and imminent potential extinction very viscerally on a few occasions. With plenty of other challenges along the way.

So for us, everyday may be the last, we're okay that we're replaceable and we aren't forever, though we may see one or each of our ends.



john117 said:


> I do find the part about cultural compatibility difficult to believe especially with wide variety between the cultures. Norway and Germany is a bit different than Estonia and Turkmenistan... It works up to a point, but it's not the cakewalk most people think it is. No wonder divorce rates are higher.


The thing is my wife is quite different from her family. So culture of origin is significant in how different she is from whence she came.

On the other hand I will grant you this, her siblings are closer to what you refer. The thing is though, there would be no way I would have ever chosen to be with people like them.

In that respect I am like my wife, in that I don't fit with my family at all even when I was a child. If I were like my family, my wife would avoid me like the plague. If she were like hers, I would avoid her just the same.

Not everyone fits into their own culture of origin very well at all.



john117 said:


> Glad it worked out for you.


Thanks, I'm glad you and your s-wife got to enjoy the many good years that you did share together. That things changed significantly after all that time, doesn't negate what you both got to share and create together.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

When I read that, I think, "ah, compatibility..."?! The more compatible, the less often compromise is necessary. It's very tough to find that combination. We don't want to show each other our true selves and lose out on something. Better to lose out than to win in those instances.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Compatibility is tricky. We humans have what are called population stereotypes, which are essentially expectations of how basic things should work. Ie to turn on a light you move the wall switch UP or to advance you rotate clockwise.

Relationships are the same. Your partner and you have a lot of things discussed but many more unsaid.

Culture differences make those expectations very difficult to manage. Did you discuss dating rules for your future children when you were planning to get married? Nope. 

This is where the cultural divide gets ugly. Or the socioeconomic one. You expect when the nest is empty to sell and downsize. Nope. Because in Turkmenistan or WTF nobody downsized...


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I dont know what it is with the alpha-v- beta distinction being made on the thread in relation to getting or not getting sex. 
All men are made unique and every man will not attract every women, etc, so much of this is superfluous.

To me (and probably many other women) men who only think about their junk and with their junk are not alpha at all, they are small minded little selfish boys. 
A real man is attractive in many ways. What is a real man to me?
A real man is one who is physically, morally and spiritually disciplined. A man who commits to those in his life, whether its his wife, family or even friends and does right by them. A real man is authentic, not just putting on a show to the world by flexing his muscles, putting notches on his bedpost, etc. A real man knows who he is and has spent time working on the inner as well as the outer and is comfortable with who he is.

There are many reasons why wives don't want sex with their men. Some may be to do with the woman but some are to do with the man himself. 
Many men stop working on attracting their wives, they want to get to the destination asap, they put in little effort to court their wives, and moan about it when they have to. That is off putting because if a wife is not worth the effort and its just 'wam bam thank you mam' then why should she bother. Some here mentioned lack of personal hygiene, that is another example of not putting in the effort. Just because you have a wife doesn't mean sex ought to be available on tap.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Now that I think about it, I should have put a sticky note on his Viagra script saying it’s probably out of date. Don’t bother buying more 🤣


Well... no sticky note should be needed there as that should be self explanatory! 



> Oh, what is this? Hmmm Viagra... yes I can see why he would have this after what happened the other night. Wish he would have just told me he needs these for anything to happen ...wait a minute, this bottle is full and they expired over five years ago and it says "no refills." WTF!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> There are entire discussion boards for people who do not feel sexual desire under conditions where most people would. I assume that they are not all lying.
> 
> Clearly some people are sexually attracted to the opposite gender, or to the same gender, or to both genders. Why is it strange that some would be attracted to neither?


Or attracted in a manner that is significantly limited by feelings such that a checklist of to dos cannot achieve said attraction and desire.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Who cares about Ohio State or Auburn.


This made me smile a lot


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I vote for selfishness
> 
> For, as evidenced by the post above my, some women make their men earne sex or see sex as some kind of currency they can use to extract whatever they want.


Ugh. This is a very cynical view of women. PEOPLE have different personalities, most certainly. Because that part is true, then it could be deducted that there are some mean people who use sex as currency. But, JEEZ, to have the viewpoint that women in general would do that is completely false. Sexual behaviors are a whole lot more complex than that because PEOPLE are a whole lot more complex than that. There are tons of reasons a person would either want or not want to have sex. The bottom line is that no one should be having sex against their will for any reason.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Ugh. This is a very cynical view of women. PEOPLE have different personalities, most certainly. Because that part is true, then it could be deducted that there are some mean people who use sex as currency. But, JEEZ, to have the viewpoint that women in general would do that is completely false. Sexual behaviors are a whole lot more complex than that because PEOPLE are a whole lot more complex than that. There are tons of reasons a person would either want or not want to have sex. The bottom line is that no one should be having sex against their will for any reason.


First of all, the whole "sex against their will thing" is an eye=roller. In no way did I even imply that.

Sex really ISN'T as complex as that.

If you love your spouse, you want to meet their needs, and you are physically able, you will have sex with your spouse. It's really that simple.

I don't like vacuuming. My spouse likes a clean floor. I vacuum. Some men don't like mundane pinterest conversations. Their wives love to craft. So they have mundane pinterest conversations.

If a husband is terrible, (and by terrible I mean more than socks on the floor or watching too much football), that is one thing. But in most normal marriages, there really ISN'T a valid reason to deny your spouse the one intimate need they cannot get anywhere else.

We can do the smokescreen dance all we want, but if you don't want to have sex - don't get married.

I realize women who want to reap the benefits of marriage without having to take care of their husbands don't like that. But that is really on them.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> First of all, the whole "sex against their will thing" is an eye=roller. In no way did I even imply that.
> 
> Sex really ISN'T as complex as that.
> 
> ...


Sex is nowhere near the same as vacuuming. NOT. AT. ALL. So, bad analogy.

And sex isn't about "taking care of" - sex is a mutually enjoyable activity that both people consent to. Saying that a woman who "really loves her husband" would be willing to "take care of him" is 1960s misogynist thinking...along with the attitude that women need to be taken care of by their husbands financially and therefore, somehow, the exchange is for her to engage in sex with a guy who is taking care of her. 

It's not an exchange of tasks. 

And, yes it IS complex for women. If you were open to educating yourself about women's bodies and sexuality, you would distance yourself from your stated archaic ways of thinking. THIS kind of thinking is what turns women OFF.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

LOL don't tell me to educate myself. I spent nearly two decades doing that in my sexless marriage. I AM a woman.

You and I have been round this block before and we don't agree. You think withholding is fine, I don't.

You won't convince me depriving a spouse is okay, and I won't convince you that the need for sex is valid.

So I bow out of this little dance.

LOL...educate myself.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Who would post: My husband has a good paying, high status job, is physically attractive and fit. Flies airplanes, climbs mountains, and does charity work to help poor children. His friends think he's great and other women tell me how lucky I am to have him. He is a talented lover who will do whatever I like in bed. I just don't feel like sex with him.....





NobodySpecial said:


> Because that situation does not exist. It is a nice fantasy that guys have in their heads. But it does not exist.


If I remember correctly, your own situation once was similar to what @uhtred posted (then again, maybe my recall is faulty).

I thought the basics were, long ago, that your husband wasn't happy with the sex (frequency, enthusiasm?) and made this clear to you.

I believe it had to do mostly with FOO issues.

Then, your husband worked well with you to improve the situation.

If this is so, weren't you not having a good sex life with and then started having a good sex life with the same man, with the same qualities?


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> LOL don't tell me to educate myself. I spent nearly two decades doing that in my sexless marriage. I AM a woman.
> 
> You and I have been round this block before and we don't agree. You think withholding is fine, I don't.
> 
> ...


Good grief - how on earth did you get from me saying that sex should be consensual to your perception that I'm saying that I feel "withholding" is okay? People who viciously withhold sex to be mean to another person is highly different than two people allowing each other to consent.

If you are familiar with me, then you may also have read that I was also in a sexless marriage - which I got out of - which is the way to deal with a sexless marriage when all other avenues have been explored.

If you want to view sex as currency, then have at it. I encourage women to do what they want for themselves out of their own desire - not because they feel they are supposed to "take care of" their man. Healthy sex is an expression by two people who want to be together sexually. Prostitutes get paid to take care of - women with low self-esteem obligate themselves to take care of - but women who are awake and aware have moved past the 60s and have leveled the playing field. If you disagree with that, then, yes, we think differently.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Good grief - how on earth did you get from me saying that sex should be consensual to your perception that I'm saying that I feel "withholding" is okay? People who viciously withhold sex to be mean to another person is highly different than two people allowing each other to consent.
> 
> If you are familiar with me, then you may also have read that I was also in a sexless marriage - which I got out of - which is the way to deal with a sexless marriage when all other avenues have been explored.
> 
> If you want to view sex as currency, then have at it. I encourage women to do what they want for themselves out of their own desire - not because they feel they are supposed to "take care of" their man. Healthy sex is an expression by two people who want to be together sexually. Prostitutes get paid to take care of - women with low self-esteem obligate themselves to take care of - but women who are awake and aware have moved past the 60s and have leveled the playing field. If you disagree with that, then, yes, we think differently.


You completely misread my original post and then went from there. I think women who view sex as currency are WRONG. I think holding sex hostage because of socks on the floor or not enough flowers is WRONG. And this thread is not about consent, so I don't even know where that comes in....This is about the reasons women give for withholding sex.

And my view is that unless something dire is going on in the relationship or the woman has a real medical issue....it almost always boils down to plain old selfishness on her part. It was pretty clear to everyone else what I meant, so I'm not sure how you came to your conclusions.

You seem to misread everything I write, even when everyone else understands what I am saying.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> Well in Uzbekistan the national sport is horseback soccer using a goat's head for a ball (*) try topping that Tom Brady
> 
> I mean, prior to meeting her I had no idea WTF her country is on the map, let alone local culture and such... Or time with family to observe dynamics.
> 
> (*) I think it's Uzbekistan maybe I got my goat's mixed up.


Buzkashi ..it means goat pulling in Persian.

This sport begun among the nomadic Turkic peoples who came from farther north and east spreading westward from China and Mongolia between the 10th and 15th centuries in a centuries-long series of migrations that ended only in the 1930s. From Scythian times until recent decades, buzkashi has remained a legacy of that bygone era.

During the rule of the Taliban regime, Buzkashi was banned in Afghanistan, as the Taliban considered the game immoral. After the Taliban regime was ousted, the game resumed being played.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> You completely misread my original post and then went from there. I think women who view sex as currency are WRONG. I think holding sex hostage because of socks on the floor or not enough flowers is WRONG. And this thread is not about consent, so I don't even know where that comes in....This is about the reasons women give for withholding sex.
> 
> And my view is that unless something dire is going on in the relationship or the woman has a real medical issue....it almost always boils down to plain old selfishness on her part. It was pretty clear to everyone else what I meant, so I'm not sure how you came to your conclusions.
> 
> You seem to misread everything I write, even when everyone else understands what I am saying.


"it almost always boils down to plain old selfishness on her part."

This is generalization, which is a fallacy of logic. A woman who doesn't want to have sex is somehow being characterized in the original post as withholding sex - like, she doesn't want it so that means something must be wrong with her. 

I say sex boils down to consent. You either want to or you don't want to at any given time. That's where the connection is between consent that is somehow being termed: withholding. A woman who doesn't want to have sex may have any number of reasons so jumping to the conclusion that it must be because she's being selfish doesn't take other reasons into account. I vehemently disagree with you that "it almost always boils down to plain old selfishness on her part." Way to shame a woman who doesn't consent.

Sexual behavior is complex and I offer into evidence the mountain ranges full of sex literature, advice counseling, medical interventions and sex assistance (aka porn) that exists. If it was simple, no one would have a need for any of this.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Sex is nowhere near the same as vacuuming. NOT. AT. ALL. So, bad analogy.
> 
> And sex isn't about "taking care of" - sex is a mutually enjoyable activity that both people consent to. Saying that a woman who "really loves her husband" would be willing to "take care of him" is 1960s misogynist thinking...along with the attitude that women need to be taken care of by their husbands financially and therefore, somehow, the exchange is for her to engage in sex with a guy who is taking care of her.
> 
> ...


If you love your spouse then you will put out even on those occassions when one of you is tired, stressed or has one of those random headaches. This goes for men and women. More than likely, once it gets rolling, the one that wasn't into it is then suddenly on board. Well, from my experience.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> I say sex boils down to consent. You either want to or you don't want to at any given time. That's where the connection is between consent that is somehow being termed: withholding. A woman who doesn't want to have sex may have any number of reasons so jumping to the conclusion that it must be because she's being selfish doesn't take other reasons into account. I vehemently disagree with you that "it almost always boils down to plain old selfishness on her part." Way to shame a woman who doesn't consent.
> 
> Sexual behavior is complex and I offer into evidence the mountain ranges full of sex literature, advice counseling, medical interventions and sex assistance (aka porn) that exists. If it was simple, no one would have a need for any of this.


I strongly agree with this. I feel there is too much advice posted from people who assume that lack of sex means withholding. "Withholding" would imply that the person wants sex, but is holding back for a manipulative purpose. That is rarely the case. It's much more likely that the person just doesn't feel like having sex for a multitude of complex reasons.

However, I would add that the person isn't off the hook because they don't feel like sex. Since they are in a marriage, which presumably they want to last, they should have some internal motivation to fix the problem. If their attitude is "I don't feel like it so I'm not going to do it. It's up to you to change my mind.", then they are putting their marriage in jeopardy. If there is an explicit reason, such as bad hygiene, they should work towards a solution. If they just lost their desire, then they should do some serious introspection to understand why that is and how they can change it. Most often the marriage is killed by the LD person being apathetic about fixing the problem rather than the HD person not making enough of an effort.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> "it almost always boils down to plain old selfishness on her part."
> 
> This is generalization, which is a fallacy of logic. A woman who doesn't want to have sex is somehow being characterized in the original post as withholding sex - like, she doesn't want it so that means something must be wrong with her.
> 
> ...


It is apparent we both dealt with our sexless marriages in different ways. I finally understood after years of trying to be perfect that it really WASN'T me. You spent a lot of time researching the justification for refusing your spouse sex. When I use the word withhold, I am not referring to a night when a spouse feels bad or just can't do it. I am referring to a pattern of rejection and refusal over a long period of time.

And yeah....someone who withholds sex repeatedly over a long period of time either needs some kind of medical intervention or they are probably being selfish. 

And I make no apology for "shaming" a woman who denies her partner repeatedly. She SHOULD be shamed of such behavior.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> It is apparent we both dealt with our sexless marriages in different ways. I finally understood after years of trying to be perfect that it really WASN'T me. You spent a lot of time researching the justification for refusing your spouse sex. When I use the word withhold, I am not referring to a night when a spouse feels bad or just can't do it. I am referring to a pattern of rejection and refusal over a long period of time.
> 
> And yeah....someone who withholds sex repeatedly over a long period of time either needs some kind of medical intervention or they are probably being selfish.
> 
> And I make no apology for "shaming" a woman who denies her partner repeatedly. She SHOULD be shamed of such behavior.


The reality (male or female), if someone doesn't want to have sex with their spouse they absolutely WILL find reasons not to (some possibly legitimate while others not so much or based more of selfishness).


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> "it almost always boils down to plain old selfishness on her part."
> 
> This is generalization, which is a fallacy of logic. A woman who doesn't want to have sex is somehow being characterized in the original post as withholding sex - like, she doesn't want it so that means something must be wrong with her.
> 
> ...


But sexual interaction between loving spouses does not have to be complex. 

Complex while dating, yes.

Complex after being married 10, 20, 30 more years, between loving spouses, no.

Important it's done right, according to that nights mood, yes.

Complex when waking up the other spouse in the middle of the night for sex, no.

The "complex" card can be over played.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> "it almost always boils down to plain old selfishness on her part."
> 
> This is generalization, which is a fallacy of logic. A woman who doesn't want to have sex is somehow being characterized in the original post as withholding sex - like, she doesn't want it so that means something must be wrong with her.


It does not matter if it is a woman or a man. It is VASTLY easier to categorize someone who is on the other side of the sexless divide as selfish than take a real look at the myriad of factors that can and do impact sexuality. POI does this very often.



> I say sex boils down to consent.


Yuck. I hope it is not that simplisitic in a marriage. Consent basically means permission.


> You either want to or you don't want to at any given time.


That dynamic is simple compared to the more common dynamic of one partner not wanting the other at ANY or nearly any time.


> That's where the connection is between consent that is somehow being termed: withholding. A woman who doesn't want to have sex may have any number of reasons so jumping to the conclusion that it must be because she's being selfish doesn't take other reasons into account. I vehemently disagree with you that "it almost always boils down to plain old selfishness on her part." Way to shame a woman who doesn't consent.


Or in her case, her ex husband.



> Sexual behavior is complex and I offer into evidence the mountain ranges full of sex literature, advice counseling, medical interventions and sex assistance (aka porn) that exists. If it was simple, no one would have a need for any of this.


Ayuh.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

LOL

I don't even know what to say.

Anyhoo.....if you don't want to and don't plan to have sex with your partner and sex is important to them, be unselfish enough to set them free.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Well...

There are reasons and there are excuses. Even when there are valid reasons, failing to address those reasons is selfish, it at least ignorant.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> LOL
> 
> I don't even know what to say.
> 
> Anyhoo.....if you don't want to and don't plan to have sex with your partner and sex is important to them, be unselfish enough to set them free.


I suppose you could sum up any activity that way. If you don't want to vacation at the beach with your partner and vacationing at the beach is important to them, be unselfish and set them free? Why is it the other guy's responsibility to do the free setting? Why not the person not going to the beach?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I suppose you could sum up any activity that way. If you don't want to vacation at the beach with your partner and vacationing at the beach is important to them, be unselfish and set them free? Why is it the other guy's responsibility to do the free setting? Why not the person not going to the beach?


Because only a bonehead gets married thinking that sex will not be part of the deal. It's like taking out a loan with a bank when you know you don't have a job or any resources but lying on the application. It's like having a baby and then whining that the baby is hungry and needs changing.

Sexual intimacy is a pretty foundational part of marriage. If you marry a normal man thinking you can just shut off sex once you get him....you've basically lied. If you do not care about your spouse's needs - you are not a good spouse.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it. I get that we women should unite against the penis or whatever, but sex is a part of marriage that is exclusive. I want conversation? I can call my best girlfriends. I want recreation? I can shop or go to movies or hike with my girlfriends. I want a clean house? I can hire a maid.

I cannot have sex with anyone else unless I want to commit adultery.

A spouse who withholds sex is holding the other person hostage. 

I am not sure if women are really this obtuse, or if they are just stubborn. How is it okay to deprive your spouse for months and years on end of the intimacy that only YOU can give them?????


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

FWIW, what I posted isn't much of an exaggeration from my real situation. I think that if most women were married to me, in the situation my wife and I are in, most would be happy to have regular sex. My wife doesn't. I don't think she is selfish, or evil, or controlling. I think she does not desire sex under conditions where most women would.

Most women are not married to "perfect" men, but most enjoy regular sex if their husbands are generally good men and if they love each other. For most women (and men) in a marriage the bar for sex is not all that high. (Some people of course do not rise to that bar, but I think that in general most do). 






Buddy400 said:


> If I remember correctly, your own situation once was similar to what @uhtred posted (then again, maybe my recall is faulty).
> 
> I thought the basics were, long ago, that your husband wasn't happy with the sex (frequency, enthusiasm?) and made this clear to you.
> 
> ...


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> It is apparent we both dealt with our sexless marriages in different ways. I finally understood after years of trying to be perfect that it really WASN'T me. You spent a lot of time researching the justification for refusing your spouse sex. When I use the word withhold, I am not referring to a night when a spouse feels bad or just can't do it. I am referring to a pattern of rejection and refusal over a long period of time.
> 
> And yeah....someone who withholds sex repeatedly over a long period of time either needs some kind of medical intervention or they are probably being selfish.
> 
> And I make no apology for "shaming" a woman who denies her partner repeatedly. She SHOULD be shamed of such behavior.


No, a woman need never shame herself for denying sex to a partner. There are plenty of actions to take - but shaming herself is not one of them.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Whatever. I'm not going to debate someone who is clearly in favor of withholding. Or who just likes to argue for the sake of being right and proving someone else wrong.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If you love your spouse then you will put out even on those occassions when one of you is tired, stressed or has one of those random headaches. This goes for men and women. More than likely, once it gets rolling, the one that wasn't into it is then suddenly on board. Well, from my experience.


If you love your spouse, you will put out no matter what - NOPE. You can love a person and not feel like you are *putting out* - which is a term in and of itself that implies a chore.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Whatever. I'm not going to debate someone who is clearly in favor of withholding. Or who just likes to argue for the sake of being right and proving someone else wrong.


Here's what I'm in favor of: a person consenting and WANTING to have sex - which is not the same as evil, hateful, mean, spiteful withholding. 

Women who may be reading this thread: You have a right to have sex when you want to and not out of any feeling of obligation or competition or fear of losing your man or being shamed because you aren't performing up to standards set by other women who are not you.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

What a bunch of histrionica do about nothing. In none of my post have I said women do not have a right to say no or women are required to have sex every time it strikes the man's fancy. You're just pulling krapp out of the air now. The bottom line is this, no one should feel forced or obligated to have 6. On the flip side of that coin, if you are constantly refusing the spouse you promised to love and cherish, maybe you need to ask yourself why.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

happiness27 said:


> Here's what I'm in favor of: a person consenting and WANTING to have sex - which is not the same as evil, hateful, mean, spiteful withholding.
> 
> *Women* who may be reading this thread: *You have a right to have sex when you want to* and not out of any feeling of obligation or competition or fear of losing your man or being shamed because you aren't performing up to standards set by other women who are not you.


*Unless your spouse doesn't want to.* Then you have the right to divorce, or the right to adulterate, or the right to masturbate. What you don't have a right to is freedom from the consequences of those actions. The same, of course, applies to *Men*.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > Here's what I'm in favor of: a person consenting and WANTING to have sex - which is not the same as evil, hateful, mean, spiteful withholding.
> ...


 Exactly. Prove your point by exercising your God-given right to say no to the spouse you claim to love every freaking night if you want to. Hit, put a padlock on the bedroom door and wear a chastity belt. Do that for years

Just don't be surprised when you are frustrated and hurt spouse hand you divorce papers and finds someone who actually knows how to love them in the way they need to be loved

But by all means, wave the flag of refusal and protect your right to deny your spouse lol


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> What a bunch of histrionica do about nothing. In none of my post have I said women do not have a right to say no or women are required to have sex every time it strikes the man's fancy. You're just pulling krapp out of the air now. The bottom line is this, no one should feel forced or obligated to have 6. On the flip side of that coin, if you are constantly refusing the spouse you promised to love and cherish, maybe you need to ask yourself why.


Agree. 

It's the way things are phrased that can put pressure on a woman to not be comfortable with her choices.

If a woman doesn't want to have sex at some given time, she doesn't want to have sex. To phrase it as a *refusal* to have sex flips the narrative and makes it sound like she is doing something TO HIM when, in fact, she is honoring what she wants for HERSELF. Thank God I'm married to someone who gets that.

I have sex when I want to have sex. I stop having sex sometimes in the middle of having sex if I feel like it. I do what I want during sex and don't do what I don't want. This is the agreement between my spouse and me. We are both adult survivors of sex abuse. We both understand how sex can be used as a weapon. Consent and desire are important - far more important that making sacrifices for "the spouse you promised to love and cherish"

Sometimes "love and cherish" involves respectful, loving contact that may or may not include sex. MOST OF ALL, though, it means consent. And both people understanding that not wanting to have sex isn't rejection of the other spouse - but more about regaining personal power over our own bodies.

Plenty of people have had sexual experiences that didn't go well and people, in general, have tons of life experiences built into their personalities that are reflected in how they approach sex. 

So, that's PART of why I'm saying that sex is complex.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> *Unless your spouse doesn't want to.* Then you have the right to divorce, or the right to adulterate, or the right to masturbate. What you don't have a right to is freedom from the consequences of those actions. The same, of course, applies to *Men*.


Of course.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Last night at about 3:00 in the morning, I felt my husband's hands start roaming. I could tell he was ready because we were spooning if you catch my drift lol. I was tired and my sinuses had given me a sick headache. I needed a good night's sleep because I knew today was going to be stressful during a meeting this morning. So I rolled over and gave him a kiss and asked if I could take a rain check for tonight. I told him why. He kissed me back and said sure and held me in his arms until I fell to sleep again. We both understand that sometimes it just isn't going to happen. However, I won't be doing that to him again tonight and again tomorrow night and again the next night and again the next night…. all the while reaping the benefits that he brings to the table in our marriage. I understand that we women need to have autonomy when it comes to sex and our bodies. But I don't and don't want to understand a woman or a man Continually says no to their partner's advances. I don't think people who have had healthy sex lives or people who don't have a great day for 6 can understand exactly how soul crushing it is to live like that period touch is my primary love language and sex is an integral part of how I express and feel love. To spend those years with a man who felt it was not important and therefore I shouldn't need it while at the same time hardly ever touching me was a deep pain that rivals any affair anyone could ever have. I still have nightmares where I am begging someone to reach out to me. Thankfully my husband understands me enough to know how deep that need is.

I am not really sure what is to be gained by using a 6 thread to advocate saying no.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Well...
> 
> There are reasons and there are excuses. Even when there are valid reasons, failing to address those reasons is selfish, it at least ignorant.


Sometimes, "failure to address those reasons" is fear. And fear is a really powerful emotion. People do all kinds of self-preserving actions to protect themselves from feeling what they consider emotions too dangerous to experience. 

If you were to say "but feeling those is the path out of the fear" - you would be right. But I've got a spouse who fought to the very bitter end to protect himself from feeling so many things. It was nothing short of hell to walk through that with him. He fought it every step of the way. It took us years and relentless conversations - thousands of them. Both of us were very broken.

Our 25th anniversary song was Broken Road.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Last night at about 3:00 in the morning, I felt my husband's hands start roaming. I could tell he was ready because we were spooning if you catch my drift lol. I was tired and my sinuses had given me a sick headache. I needed a good night's sleep because I knew today was going to be stressful during a meeting this morning. So I rolled over and gave him a kiss and asked if I could take a rain check for tonight. I told him why. He kissed me back and said sure and held me in his arms until I fell to sleep again. We both understand that sometimes it just isn't going to happen. However, I won't be doing that to him again tonight and again tomorrow night and again the next night and again the next night…. all the while reaping the benefits that he brings to the table in our marriage. I understand that we women need to have autonomy when it comes to sex and our bodies. But I don't and don't want to understand a woman or a man Continually says no to their partner's advances. I don't think people who have had healthy sex lives or people who don't have a great day for 6 can understand exactly how soul crushing it is to live like that period touch is my primary love language and sex is an integral part of how I express and feel love. To spend those years with a man who felt it was not important and therefore I shouldn't need it while at the same time hardly ever touching me was a deep pain that rivals any affair anyone could ever have. I still have nightmares where I am begging someone to reach out to me. Thankfully my husband understands me enough to know how deep that need is.
> 
> I am not really sure what is to be gained by using a 6 thread to advocate saying no.


You and I have had the same experience. 

So, where is the disagreement? 

No one is advocating saying no night after night after night in a hateful vindictive way.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

If you read the article linked in the original post of this thread, it is not talking about the occasion old headache or tiredness or grudge from a fight earlier in the evening. It is concerning repeated avoidance of sex. So continually talking about how a woman ought to occasion only be able to say no is not the topic of the article. The article is talking about repeated avoidance of sex by women. That is why I am talking about repeated avoidance and denial of sex. No one on this thread would deny the fact that every once in a while someone is probably going to say no, and that is no big deal. You seem obsessed with a woman having the right to say no when she doesn't feel like it. That's not what the article was about. The article was about women who purposely avoid sex.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I partially agree. 

I think anyone has the absolute right to turn down sex whenever they want for any reason they want. At the same time I think anyone has the absolute right to leave a relationship if they are unhappy with their sex life (or for any other reason) as long as they abide by applicable laws regarding support money. 






happiness27 said:


> Here's what I'm in favor of: a person consenting and WANTING to have sex - which is not the same as evil, hateful, mean, spiteful withholding.
> 
> Women who may be reading this thread: You have a right to have sex when you want to and not out of any feeling of obligation or competition or fear of losing your man or being shamed because you aren't performing up to standards set by other women who are not you.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think pretty much everyone believes it is reasonable and normal to sometimes turn your partner down for sex. (if anyone disagrees, please say so). The issue here is when turning them down becomes the norm, rather than occasional, and when there is not clear underlying physical cause. 








happiness27 said:


> You and I have had the same experience.
> 
> So, where is the disagreement?
> 
> No one is advocating saying no night after night after night in a hateful vindictive way.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I partially agree.
> 
> I think anyone has the absolute right to turn down sex whenever they want for any reason they want. At the same time I think anyone has the absolute right to leave a relationship if they are unhappy with their sex life (or for any other reason) as long as they abide by applicable laws regarding support money.


Agree.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I think pretty much everyone believes it is reasonable and normal to sometimes turn your partner down for sex. (if anyone disagrees, please say so). The issue here is when turning them down becomes the norm, rather than occasional, and when there is not clear underlying physical cause.


Certainly. I've been in this position with a previous marriage and after nine years of trying (there were MANY things wrong with the marriage), and attempting counseling, countless attempts at conversations, it was best to end it. He ended up, after a few years, in a marriage with someone he seemed happier with and I certainly did also. 

It was kind of weird for me, at first, being in a later marriage where my husband wanted to have sex a lot after being in a marriage where the opposite was true. It still takes a lot of conversations for people to really open up to each other, especially when one is very closed off. But when the willingness and commitment is there, that can really make all the difference.

I do think that if a person isn't honest with their significant other, there's going to be big problems. These memes in the article about women's reasons for not wanting to have sex - some of them were pretty simple to talk about. Other reasons were pretty serious - like the one who preferred women to men - that one was a very serious issue that should be immediately revealed.

For my husband and I - an awful lot of our issues over the years stemmed from CSA issues that were very hard to talk about. His issues triggered mine and vice versa. We would never have made it together if we hadn't kept talking.

For the partner of a spouse who doesn't want sex very often or at all, it's just this impermeable wall he or she is looking at if their partner is afraid or unwilling for other reasons to discuss what is going on. One of my girlfriends went 8 years without sex while married to a lovely man who finally revealed he was gay.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Sometimes, "failure to address those reasons" is fear. And fear is a really powerful emotion. People do all kinds of self-preserving actions to protect themselves from feeling what they consider emotions too dangerous to experience.
> 
> If you were to say "but feeling those is the path out of the fear" - you would be right. But I've got a spouse who fought to the very bitter end to protect himself from feeling so many things. It was nothing short of hell to walk through that with him. He fought it every step of the way. It took us years and relentless conversations - thousands of them. Both of us were very broken.
> 
> Our 25th anniversary song was Broken Road.


Yes, fear can be the most powerful of all. Thanks for a very meaningful response.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agreed

Sometimes the person who doesn't want sex doesn't know themselves why they do not. I'm pretty sure its that way with my wife. She thinks she wants sex - in the future - but never now. I think she expects to want it in romantic situations and really doesn't understand why she doesn't actually want it. 

I don't think she is gay (though its of course possible) but more that she is just naturally very low libido. 




happiness27 said:


> Certainly. I've been in this position with a previous marriage and after nine years of trying (there were MANY things wrong with the marriage), and attempting counseling, countless attempts at conversations, it was best to end it. He ended up, after a few years, in a marriage with someone he seemed happier with and I certainly did also.
> 
> It was kind of weird for me, at first, being in a later marriage where my husband wanted to have sex a lot after being in a marriage where the opposite was true. It still takes a lot of conversations for people to really open up to each other, especially when one is very closed off. But when the willingness and commitment is there, that can really make all the difference.
> 
> ...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Folks that have had this experience are fully aware of what it looks like ... and it can be difficult to convey to those who have not. As stated, virtually everyone gets turned down sometimes.

Where it becomes truly dysfunctional is when the interpersonal dynamic with your spouse actually *purposefully, and by design* takes shape looking not for ways to connect and be intimate, but instead framing those feelings and ANY subtext that may lead to those feelings in the worst light possible. It becomes a dynamic looking for ways to avoid intimacy, or display offense to their partner that even the slightest form of intimacy or connection then creates a precursor for sex.

Basically, it's like pushing a self-destruct button, that takes a really, really, long time to detonate. It's a progressive condition in the case of those who look for complete avoidance of sex.

I'll also point out, this isn't exclusive to women. Men do it too.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I remember suggesting the above theory years ago when I came to TAM.... Coined it 'stupid' or 'evil', with quotes indicating it's neither, just placeholders. I furthermore theorized that these two are the boundaries and the closer one is to 'stupid' the easier it was to fix. Needless to say it was not received well. 

I also theorized about "resistive desire", which basically means that not only there's no desire but actively there's resistance against desire what Deejo identified above as well.

But the last part... Remember my term for it? Self preservation neuron deficiency... 

Darn. This would make an awesome Journal of the APA submission...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

john117 said:


> I remember suggesting the above theory years ago when I came to TAM.... Coined it 'stupid' or 'evil', with quotes indicating it's neither, just placeholders. I furthermore theorized that these two are the boundaries and the closer one is to 'stupid' the easier it was to fix. Needless to say it was not received well.


Well it's certainly no secret that even the collective dynamic of the board can certainly shift ... as it most certainly has in my tenure.
It can be easy to paint the dynamic as simply sour grapes on the part of the one being shut down. 



john117 said:


> I also theorized about "resistive desire", which basically means that not only there's no desire but actively there's resistance against desire what Deejo identified above as well.
> 
> But the last part... Remember my term for it? Self preservation neuron deficiency...
> 
> Darn. This would make an awesome Journal of the APA submission...


TED Talk! Both sex, and it's absence, sells.


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## Where there's a will (Feb 10, 2014)

Marriage without sex is an empty experience. If a partner is consistently avoiding sex in an otherwise relatively uncomplicated marriage it reveals that their desire has gone out of the marriage. Its very easy to throw all sorts of excuses into the mix for not wanting to engage in sex on a regular basis but they are a cover for conveying the fact that they just dont want the level of relationship that they once signed up for.It really is quite straight forward. The problem is that by the time this change happens a tangled web of other factors has been created that means others will get hurt by the divorce. Marriage is from the outset based on sexual desire, if it dies for one partner and they really dont have that desire anymore the powerhouse of the marriage has gone and it is adrift to be wrecked on whatever rocks it encounters.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

There are many reasons and this is true. Mine was rather unusual, or maybe not... my wife said to me recently that she felt hounded and that my behaviour put her off sex with me. Basically, we were having sex twice a month, at most. After 2 weeks, I was very eager. My wife wasn't. After I got rejected a few times, I started getting angry about it. My wife hated it and she withdrew even more, until we reached an impasse. Note that she didn't communicate this to me. She would only say that it would take her ages to recover once I got angry. Ok, this was clear enough, but I didn't understand why she wouldn't sacrifice 5 minutes of her life once a month to make me happy? I just didn't understand. So I withdrew too and we lost the connection. We nearly got it back in the last few months, but I was kidding myself.

I know I handled it badly, but do I have to bear all the responsibility for the marriage going wrong? Was I such a horrible man? Were my expectations too high? I still don't know to this day. I only wanted to have sex with my wife once in a while. My wife says that for her sex with me is a "bad place" and she doesn't want to go back to it ever again. I wonder how unusual this is... or if it's very common...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

The interesting thing is, we'd all have reasons for the things we do. Even people who have affairs have reasons that they had affairs. What we have to look at is the big picture and ask this question, is my reason for repeatedly bowing out of the most intimate act of marriage physically a reason that excuses the pain it causes my partner? Because there are all sorts of things we may have good reasons to do that we know will cause other people pay. That may not be a very meaningful response, whatever the heck that means, but it's a question worth asking if you love your spouse. And no, I did not say if you love your spouse you will always put out. But I am saying if you consistently choose not to engage your spouse in sexual intimacy, you need to understand that you are hurting the person you love. Is that something you really think you are entitled to do just because you can list some reasons?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> The interesting thing is, we'd all have reasons for the things we do. Even people who have affairs have reasons that they had affairs. What we have to look at is the big picture and ask this question, is my reason for repeatedly bowing out of the most intimate act of marriage physically a reason that excuses the pain it causes my partner? Because there are all sorts of things we may have good reasons to do that we know will cause other people pay. That may not be a very meaningful response, whatever the heck that means, but it's a question worth asking if you love your spouse. And no, I did not say if you love your spouse you will always put out. *But I am saying if you consistently choose not to engage your spouse in sexual intimacy, you need to understand that you are hurting the person you love. Is that something you really think you are entitled to do just because you can list some reasons?*


Per the bolded, and I think really the bigger question, if you are purposely denying your spouse sex (not on occasion, but constant rejection), why not just end the relationship??? I think this hits on exactly what you are saying, not ending the relationship in a case like this is pure selfishness. You don't want to be intimate with your spouse but maybe drag them along because you don't want to lose the others things in the relationship (i.e. looking out for your own self interests)... That is not to say the other person doesn't have some responsibility as well for getting out of the relationship, but trying to justify your actions (or really lack of actions) due to a long line of excuses is pitiful. 

The above also assumes that when you entered the relationship, sex was a healthy aspect of (vs those who enter relationships where there are sex issues from the start).


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Because only a bonehead gets married thinking that sex will not be part of the deal. It's like taking out a loan with a bank when you know you don't have a job or any resources but lying on the application. It's like having a baby and then whining that the baby is hungry and needs changing.
> 
> Sexual intimacy is a pretty foundational part of marriage. If you marry a normal man thinking you can just shut off sex once you get him....you've basically lied. If you do not care about your spouse's needs - you are not a good spouse.
> 
> I don't know how much clearer I can make it. I get that we women should unite against the penis or whatever, but sex is a part of marriage that is exclusive. I want conversation? I can call my best girlfriends. I want recreation? I can shop or go to movies or hike with my girlfriends. I want a clean house? I can hire a maid.


It is not a penis thing. I love penises. I love a lot of men that are attached to them. It is empathetically and intellectually lazy to simply condemn people who do not want to have sex for whatever reasons as selfish jerks.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"It is not a penis thing. I love penises. I love a lot of men that are attached to them. It is empathetically and intellectually lazy to simply condemn people who do not want to have sex for whatever reasons as selfish jerks"

When I asked my husband for a rain chick 2 nights ago because I was so tired and had a sinus headache, I was not being a selfish jerk. Several months ago when my husband had some pretty badd back pain and asked for a rain check, he was not being a selfish jerk.

Right yeah, when my ex husband avoided me, found excuses, prepped me starting at 5 o'clock in the evening talking about how stressed he was, and refused me for months and even years, he was being a selfish jerk. Yeah, he was. And when he refused counseling, made excuses in the eventual counseling, enjoyed all the efforts I made to be perfect and still didn't touch me, he was being a selfish jerk

So I do not think a spouse who occasionly turns down advances is a selfish jerk. But I believe every spouse, man or woman, who knowingly deprives their partner for months and sometimes even years is a selfish jerk. And I do not care one bit if my posts make them uncomfortable. They need to be uncomfortable.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

And the same old women can follow me all over the forum basically smacking my years of pain in the face all they want to. My mind and heart will never change on this subject. Never


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> But I am saying if you consistently choose not to engage your spouse in sexual intimacy, you need to understand that you are hurting the person you love. Is that something you really think you are entitled to do just because you can list some reasons?


Well, this was my wife's attitude... it's my body and I do whatever I like with it. If that meant not engaging in any sexual activity for a long time, then she was entitled to. And she wouldn't understand why I was upset.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > But I am saying if you consistently choose not to engage your spouse in sexual intimacy, you need to understand that you are hurting the person you love. Is that something you really think you are entitled to do just because you can list some reasons?
> ...


 Well apparently your wife is in good company. Apparently she is all enlightened and evolved and self aware, and you and I are just stupid lol


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

See, this is where you have an opportunity.

Opening the pickle jar? 

Listening to her vent about her day? 

Moving something heavy?

"You have clearly stated 'my body, my choice' is the measuring stick for our relationship. No means no, right?"


In Absentia said:


> Well, this was my wife's attitude... it's my body and I do whatever I like with it. If that meant not engaging in any sexual activity for a long time, then she was entitled to. And she wouldn't understand why I was upset.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> And the same old women can follow me all over the forum basically smacking my years of pain in the face all they want to. My mind and heart will never change on this subject. Never


We are interested in the same threads. Get over yourself. For my part, I hope someone can get use out of different PoV. I recognize your closed mind as the armor it it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Well, this was my wife's attitude... it's my body and I do whatever I like with it. If that meant not engaging in any sexual activity for a long time, then she was entitled to. And she wouldn't understand why I was upset.


Would you not say she is entitled to it? There must be good things in marriage for her. She has given you a pass. Just not the pass you want. What do you do with that?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> See, this is where you have an opportunity.
> 
> Opening the pickle jar?
> 
> ...


What's good for the goose is good for the gander. And the other way around.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Would you not say she is entitled to it? There must be good things in marriage for her. She has given you a pass. Just not the pass you want. What do you do with that?


Of course she is entitled... why get married then? We are talking sex once or twice a month... even that was too much effort and she was entitled to say no. Which is fine. But don't expect me not to be a tad upset about it and leave in the long term. We did have different concepts of marriage and I get it. But I want to pursue mine, so this is what I'm doing with my "pass".


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> What's good for the goose is good for the gander. And the other way around.


I'm past all that. At the end of the day, you reap what you sow... and it goes both ways.


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## bikermehound (Mar 24, 2017)

hi so what are you going to do get back to me have the same problem

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> I'm past all that. At the end of the day, you reap what you sow... and it goes both ways.


Yup.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> And the same old women can follow me all over the forum basically smacking my years of pain in the face all they want to. *My mind and heart will never change on this subject. Never*


What do you have to lose by considering that you might be wrong?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Double post, see below.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

@happiness27,

I say this partially in jest, partially serious, and kind if opportunistically because your post opened the door 😋.

You stated a W could have multiple reasons for saying No when approached for a sexual encounter. 

Would you help by listing the reasons?
A good list is always helpful. 

😎😎😃😃
Tx,

RR


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> What do you have to lose by considering that you might be wrong?


Because I already spent over a decade of my previous marriage believing I was wrong. Believing if I were worthy, my ex would have wanted to touch me. Believing it was my fault I was continually rejected. That if I were nicer, if I were prettier, if I cleaned the house better, if I made more money, if I were more like X or Y....he would want me. I took all the blame and burden of his continual refusal and neglect, excusing every rejection. I even shamed myself for seeing sex as important - maybe I was just weird and a freak. If I didn't want it we wouldn't have conflict, so I tried to de-sexualize myself.

I spent years believing the lie that I was to blame and that he was perfectly within his rights to just reject me and intimacy out of hand. I even defended him when people probed. I defended him to my counselor.

But you know what? It wasn't me. It wasn't about dress size or lack of matching socks on a Tuesday or anything else. He rejected me and was fine with it because sex didn't matter to him, and even though it mattered to ME,* I *didn't matter enough for him to care.

And he was wrong. And IT was wrong.

And if people could pause in their defense of rejection long enough to say, "You know what, you're right, it IS wrong to hurt and deny your spouse continually," I might not be so triggered.

Instead we dig our heels in and proclaim the right of women everywhere to refuse to touch their husbands (or vice versa).

That is what it feels like.

So yes, there was a lot of harm in considering how wrong I might be.

Would it kill people to be kind?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> I'm past all that. At the end of the day, you reap what you sow... and it goes both ways.


While I can totally understand having this attitude, it probably is not productive towards fixing the relationship. It is likely to build more resentment and harden the resentment so it's harder to get past. If the couple has the attitude of "you aren't meeting my needs, so I'm not going to meet yours", then they should probably just get divorced. It is extremely unlikely that the LD person is going to regain desire and interest in sex if their partner is acting resentful and spiteful. What may happen is that they resolve themselves to duty sex where they turn off their mind and just try to get through it because they are fearful about losing the marriage. They may also start to see the advantage of divorce since it will be a way to end the resentment and pressure about sex.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Because I already spent over a decade of my previous marriage believing I was wrong. Believing if I were worthy, my ex would have wanted to touch me. Believing it was my fault I was continually rejected. That if I were nicer, if I were prettier, if I cleaned the house better, if I made more money, if I were more like X or Y....he would want me. I took all the blame and burden of his continual refusal and neglect, excusing every rejection. I even shamed myself for seeing sex as important - maybe I was just weird and a freak. If I didn't want it we wouldn't have conflict, so I tried to de-sexualize myself.
> 
> I spent years believing the lie that I was to blame and that he was perfectly within his rights to just reject me and intimacy out of hand. I even defended him when people probed. I defended him to my counselor.
> 
> ...


If he didn't want to have sex with you, what would you have liked him to do differently?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Because I already spent over a decade of my previous marriage believing I was wrong. Believing if I were worthy, my ex would have wanted to touch me. Believing it was my fault I was continually rejected. That if I were nicer, if I were prettier, if I cleaned the house better, if I made more money, if I were more like X or Y....he would want me. I took all the blame and burden of his continual refusal and neglect, excusing every rejection. I even shamed myself for seeing sex as important - maybe I was just weird and a freak. If I didn't want it we wouldn't have conflict, so I tried to de-sexualize myself.
> 
> I spent years believing the lie that I was to blame and that he was perfectly within his rights to just reject me and intimacy out of hand. I even defended him when people probed. I defended him to my counselor.
> 
> ...


I am sorry you experienced this. But the unfortunate truth may be that neither of you was "wrong". Just not right for each other. I agree it is wrong to hurt your spouse. But the REASON may not be being a selfish jerk. There are worlds of possibility. What continues to baffle is why pulling the plug would be the other's responsibility whether or not they want to continue the marriage as is. Why is it selfish for that person to do it rather than the person who is having this significant need unmet?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

"I am not doing it TO you. I am doing it FOR me."


In Absentia said:


> I'm past all that. At the end of the day, you reap what you sow... and it goes both ways.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> @happiness27,
> 
> I say this partially in jest, partially serious, and kind if opportunistically because your post opened the door 😋.
> 
> ...


go on mumsnet and search husband and sex and you will find lots of posts like "my husband is pestering me for sex and we had sex 2 weeks ago!" Real eye opener. But they are entitled to, of course... :laugh:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Would it kill people to be kind?


If you mean, by be kind, agree with you, then it would not be in other people's best interest for people to post agreement. I don't think anyone fails to feel bad about how awful that must have been. That does not mean we agree on your conclusions.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

wilson said:


> While I can totally understand having this attitude, it probably is not productive towards fixing the relationship. It is likely to build more resentment and harden the resentment so it's harder to get past. If the couple has the attitude of "you aren't meeting my needs, so I'm not going to meet yours", then they should probably just get divorced. It is extremely unlikely that the LD person is going to regain desire and interest in sex if their partner is acting resentful and spiteful. What may happen is that they resolve themselves to duty sex where they turn off their mind and just try to get through it because they are fearful about losing the marriage. They may also start to see the advantage of divorce since it will be a way to end the resentment and pressure about sex.


You are correct... in fact, the marriage has gone wrong... but not because I stopped meeting my wife's needs, on the contrary.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> "I am not doing it TO you. I am doing it FOR me."
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


It doesn't really make any difference now, unfortunately... or fortunately. :laugh:


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> go on mumsnet and search husband and sex and you will find lots of posts like "my husband is pestering me for sex and we had sex 2 weeks ago!" Real eye opener. But they are entitled to, of course... :laugh:


And just out of curiosity, if someone says there are reasons, like they know the reasons, I think it's only expected that one asks for said reasons. 

😁 I don't think we'll get a list but hey, maybe someone will start it. 


I believe in giving a person an opportunity to state or do things if they say they know something or say they can perform something. 

In my household kids were taught be careful what you say, if you say well I could of done that - they're called on it.

Good lessons in the business world as well as in personal lives.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> And just out of curiosity, if someone says there are reasons, like they know the reasons, I think it's only expected that one asks for said reasons.
> 
> 😁 I don't think we'll get a list but hey, maybe someone will start it.
> 
> ...



I agree, but, like you, I don't think we will get a list... :grin2:


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Mr. Nail said:
> 
> 
> > *Unless your spouse doesn't want to.* Then you have the right to divorce, or the right to adulterate, or the right to masturbate. What you don't have a right to is freedom from the consequences of those actions. The same, of course, applies to *Men*.
> ...


Marriage is not for you then.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> FWIW, what I posted isn't much of an exaggeration from my real situation. I think that if most women were married to me, in the situation my wife and I are in, most would be happy to have regular sex. My wife doesn't. I don't think she is selfish, or evil, or controlling. I think she does not desire sex under conditions where most women would.
> 
> Most women are not married to "perfect" men, but most enjoy regular sex if their husbands are generally good men and if they love each other. For most women (and men) in a marriage the bar for sex is not all that high. (Some people of course do not rise to that bar, but I think that in general most do).


I've read many stories about women who say that their husband is wonderful, attractive, whatever and they feel that they "should" want to have sex with him but just don't. They don't like that they feel this way and wish (at least for the sake of their marriage) that they did.

In fact, that's pretty much the target market for addyi.

So, I don't agree with those who believe that, if the wife doesn't want to have sex with her husband, it's always the fault of the husband (or, that there's something the husband could do about it).


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I've read many stories about women who say that their husband is wonderful, attractive, whatever and they feel that they "should" want to have sex with him but just don't. They don't like that they feel this way and wish (at least for the sake of their marriage) that they did.
> 
> In fact, that's pretty much the target market for addyi.
> 
> So, I don't agree with those who believe that, if the wife doesn't want to have sex with her husband, it's always the fault of the husband (or, that there's something the husband could do about it).


I thought this was all a fantasy that didn't exist 

Actually never heard of addyi, I thought it was some sort of abbreviation for infidelity lol.
@uhtred - I am not entirely familiar with your situation. It sounds like your Wife is aware of your unhappiness with your sex life. Has she actually worked with you to address, or is it just "This is who I am so deal with it"?


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> I've read many stories about women who say that their husband is wonderful, attractive, whatever and they feel that they "should" want to have sex with him but just don't. They don't like that they feel this way and wish (at least for the sake of their marriage) that they did.
> 
> In fact, that's pretty much the target market for addyi.
> 
> So, I don't agree with those who believe that, if the wife doesn't want to have sex with her husband, it's always the fault of the husband (or, that there's something the husband could do about it).


I experienced ZERO sex drive for a few days after quitting weed. There was nothing my wife could do that would have changed that feeling so I can now understand how that feels to someone. I love my wife and wanted to be horny for her but that just wasn't happening. Of course, once my dopamine levels came back up, I was my normal walking hardon again. Maybe Addyi can help some of those who want help. I hope so.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> ...
> 
> So, I don't agree with those who believe that, if the wife doesn't want to have sex with her husband, *it's always the fault of the husband (or, that there's something the husband could do about it)*.


This is the most frustrating thing about posting in the SIM sub-forum and even the other forums of TAM. There is this hyper focus on fault. The suggestion that a person seeking a change DO something is not an expression of fault. The person who is not having a problem sure as heck isn't going to do anything.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is the most frustrating thing about posting in the SIM sub-forum and even the other forums of TAM. There is this hyper focus on fault. The suggestion that a person seeking a change DO something is not an expression of fault. The person who is not having a problem sure as heck isn't going to do anything.


Instead of PM'ing you to tell you that your compassion, empathy and open mindedness are one of the reasons I enjoy this site, I will just make it know here. :toast:


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is the most frustrating thing about posting in the SIM sub-forum and even the other forums of TAM. There is this hyper focus on fault. The suggestion that a person seeking a change DO something is not an expression of fault. The person who is not having a problem sure as heck isn't going to do anything.


I don't even understand how someone can think its OK to be married and refuse to have sex... Its kind of package deal, you know if I'm buying a car I expect the steering wheel to be included in the base package. Common Sense. Only excuse I can think of is when you are so old and wrinkly, you both gross each other out.

But for all of those not with one foot in the grave, if there is no sex, there is really no marriage. You might as well get divorced, sell the house, get an adjoining town home and be best friends if that is all that is left. Then get your strange elsewhere.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I don't even understand how someone can think its OK to be married and refuse to have sex... Its kind of package deal, you know if I'm buying a car I expect the steering wheel to be included in the base package. Common Sense. Only excuse I can think of is when you are so old and wrinkly, you both gross each other out.
> 
> But for all of those not with one foot in the grave, if there is no sex, there is really no marriage. You might as well get divorced, sell the house, get an adjoining town home and be best friends if that is all that is left. Then get your strange elsewhere.


I can't understand how a person can think it is OK to be married and fail in any number of realms of partnership. Yet they do.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Instead of PM'ing you to tell you that your compassion, empathy and open mindedness are one of the reasons I enjoy this site, I will just make it know here. :toast:


Daw. Aren't you sweet.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> If he didn't want to have sex with you, what would you have liked him to do differently?



In the human element of just that base sense of....justice? Right? I don't know....

I would want the one who broke the contract to take the hit. No one who is sane gets married thinking they will not have sex. No one. No....they don't.

So if you marry someone knowing sex doesn't really matter to you, and it becomes apparent that your indifference and refusal is hurting your spouse......then since YOU broke the vow/contract/inherent promise...YOU take the action. You messed it up, you clean it up.

Because leaving is hard. Because we all know that unless your spouse beat you or cheated on you, most people are going to judge the one who leaves. Look at that annoying stat men like to throw around about who initiates most divorce. Since women leave more women MUST be worse! That's just an example.

So....I am suffering and emotionally shredded because the man who said he loved me and vowed to cherish me won't touch me for years no matter how perfect I try to be. And this is MARRIAGE. Normal people understand that marriage involves sex.

So I am already wrecked and just....devastated by years of rejection and neglect. AND it's also on me to pull the plug and be the bad guy and face all the judgment.

Just like I think the cheater is the one who should leave the house because they are the one who wrecked the marriage.....I think the one who acts in a way that they don't want to keep the spoken AND inherent vows and promises, they need to take the hit of leaving.

I know....I know.....I KNOW

But it is not fair to suffer years of agony and THEN be the bad one who left, when you are the one who tried everything while your spouse sat fat and happy because they had their needs met just fine.

I get that that isn't how life works. I even get that it may not be healthy. What I DON'T get is that it would be so hard to at least understand.

Here's a news flash: for many of us, when we are hurting, we don't need to be told how wrong we are or have someone play devil's advocate. We are bleeding. We need someone with a touch and a band-aid, not a lecture on why we shouldn't be bleeding and how other people bleed differently.

That is why the sexless marriage is so hard. Because 99% of outside support consists of "People shouldn't be forced to have sex," "What are YOU doing wrong to make you not sexworthy," and "this shouldn't be so important."


What would I have had him do differently? Take my kids out of the equation, and I would have had him say he was asexual or possibly gay and NOT ask me to marry him and act like he loved me. I didn't get married to split bills with a roommate. I think he did....and so he'd have a nurse.

I know I am taking over this thread. But I think people who keep being glib about things need a full color poster picture of what it does to a person to endure YEARS of this. It's not something you should say "yeah but you're wrong" as the go ot response when it is obvious someone is hurting.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is the most frustrating thing about posting in the SIM sub-forum and even the other forums of TAM. There is this hyper focus on fault. The suggestion that a person seeking a change DO something is not an expression of fault. The person who is not having a problem sure as heck isn't going to do anything.


I was using the word 'fault' as an indication of whether or not there was anything the person with the problem could do on their own to improve the situation.

Sometimes, there isn't.

Of course, this doesn't mean that the person with the problem should do nothing. 

They should point out to their partner that a problem exists, offer their assistance in finding a solution and point out what the consequences of not improving the situation might be.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

wilson said:


> While I can totally understand having this attitude, it probably is not productive towards fixing the relationship. It is likely to build more resentment and harden the resentment so it's harder to get past. If the couple has the attitude of "you aren't meeting my needs, so I'm not going to meet yours", then they should probably just get divorced. It is extremely unlikely that the LD person is going to regain desire and interest in sex if their partner is acting resentful and spiteful. What may happen is that they resolve themselves to duty sex where they turn off their mind and just try to get through it because they are fearful about losing the marriage. They may also start to see the advantage of divorce since it will be a way to end the resentment and pressure about sex.


This is what you do when you have no further hope of improving the situation and mostly are just looking to avoid building additional resentment.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> In the human element of just that base sense of....justice? Right? I don't know....
> 
> I would want the one who broke the contract to take the hit. No one who is sane gets married thinking they will not have sex. No one. No....they don't.
> 
> ...


What would I have liked for my husband to have done differently? I could weigh in here also.

It wasn't just about the lack of sex - it was that he was a complete A-hole to me...putdowns, shaming (for wanting sex), a total shredding of anything regarding my self-esteem and abilities to have a brain or do anything competently.

He clearly did not like me - but, then again, he treated everyone around him with disdain. 

So, it wasn't just one, narrow issue of no-sex and everything else was Mr. Nice Guy. Not at all. 

I stayed waaaaay too long - nine years. I believed all of the things he said to me, about me...until I got a job outside the home (I was raising three young children during those nine years) and found out that other people out in the rest of the world didn't think I was a complete dolt...that I was actually very smart and aced my classes at college. 

In my relationship, the lack of sex wasn't *the* problem - it was a symptom of much bigger problems. 

The lack of communication killed the relationship. 

Out of that experience, I realized that communication was key - and that any relationship I had after that would need to involve honest, open communication. 

And that open, honest communication is as rare as diamonds, apparently.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> What would I have liked for my husband to have done differently?
> 
> It wasn't just about the lack of sex - it was that he was a complete A-hole to me...putdowns, shaming (for wanting sex), a total shredding of anything regarding my self-esteem and abilities to have a brain or do anything competently.
> 
> ...


Thinking aloud....do you think people who went through what you did have a hard time forgiving themselves for not getting out sooner?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> And that open, honest communication is as rare as diamonds, apparently.


And sometimes....

It just doesn't effing matter.

Because I was as clear and honest and direct as I could possibly have been. 

And He. Didn't. Care.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Thinking aloud....do you think people who went through what you did have a hard time forgiving themselves for not getting out sooner?


Well, I don't know what other people think. I felt I COULDN'T - because I had three small children...so I guess I can empathize with people who are not wanting to break up a family where there are children, especially small children, involved. 

You kind of try for the not-so-bad days and get through them and it keeps you hooked a little, even if it's just hanging by a thread.

I threatened many times to leave - even put his stuff in suitcases and put them outside the door. Then I'd realize, "Hey, you're living 800 miles away from your primary family with no where to go, no job, no college, two (at that time) kids 2 and 3 years old - how are you going to survive?" 

If it was a man in the position I was in - much of the same thinking likely occurs. How is he going to survive financially while paying child support (or being the main caregiver) for the children? Divorce is a really big decision that isn't just leaving...it tears people up in so many other ways.

And if you think it's over a lack of a sex life, it's not hard to think that the lack of sex pales in comparison to the destruction of a family unit. So...you try harder because, the stakes for leaving are high.

I'm guessing that, as I'm writing this, this might be a familiar dilemma for people who are in marriages that are badly in need of repair. Marriage counseling is not cheap, either, so if a couple invests in it, it dang well better work and be worth it.

To get back to your question, though, of leaving sooner - not so easy to answer. I had three (and my only) children from that marriage. I wouldn't trade that for anything. So, to take a more philosophical approach, one could be grateful for the lessons learned rather than bitter about the experiences.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Honestly, I do not feel guilt for staying. I had 2 young kids as well, and for much of that time I was the breadwinner and the one who had insurance benefits (with a husband who needed them). I don't feel guilty about "not trying hard enough" or for "quitting on the marriage." I tried HARD and did pretty much everything one could do short of a brain and emotional transplant or something.

I don't really feel gult for leaving...except when I do. I don't feel guilt because I think I did something bad. I feel guilt because I know it caused my kids some pain, and I know it caused him pain. And yes, it was painful for me too. I know his family felt hurt. Mine didn't feel much hurt - they were long past tired of him, and I DIDN'T talk to them about our problems. They saw enough themselves.

I feel guilt for what staying married did to me and to my kids. My kids are very certain they never want to marry. My daughter, who has some emotional problems, did not fare well the last few years of our marriage, even though I tried to maintain a calm status quo. My children's relationship with their father suffered because of how they saw him treat me. I became somewhat reclusive at times, and I know that affected my kids socially at crucial times. You know, can't have friends over because Mommy is so depressed and just doesn't have the energy. I feel like I failed my faith in some ways because you know, GOOD Christians stay married no matter what.

But I know that inside, part of me hasn't let myself off the hook. I know it because in threads like this I am still CRYING OUT to be heard and have someone be willing to tell me that my hurt was real, that my hurt was NOT excusable, and that yes, he WAS wrong when he refused and rejected me for all those years.

Because he was. It wasn't just about compatibility. I know we all like this modern "your truth and my truth and nobody is every wrong" claptrap. But when your spouse is sobbing, depressed, anxious, lonely, starving, and you KNOW YOU hold the key to that lock and refuse to use it....it's wrong. It just is.

I grew up with parents who I dearly love but who just didn't HEAR me. And no matter what I tried, my ex WOULDN'T HEAR me. And when a bunch of strangers see the pain laid out there and still WON'T HEAR....it triggers me horribly.

All it would take when I am on that spiral is for one lone voice to say "your pain was real, and I'm sorry" without a "BUT"...and something inside my soul would quiet.

Just one.

I get it. People who have moved on and are magnanimous enough to okay sexlessness are better than me, less "bitter" than me, righter than me.

I still want to hear that one voice.

And I know I won't.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I was using the word 'fault' as an indication of whether or not there was anything the person with the problem could do on their own to improve the situation.
> 
> Sometimes, there isn't.


Of course.



> Of course, this doesn't mean that the person with the problem should do nothing.
> 
> They should point out to their partner that a problem exists, offer their assistance in finding a solution and point out what the consequences of not improving the situation might be.


That is one of several possible actions one can take.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I just figured out the cycle...

I wanted intimacy and touch from my ex so very badly. And he KNEW that was what I wanted and needed. And the clearer I made it, the more convinced I was that he knew.

He knew, he watched my become sadder and sadder....and he chose to leave me dangling. The more I declared my need the more determined he seemed to keep it from me. It was almost like a passive aggressive "the more you ask the more I will deny" struggle at times.

And so every time I find myself in a scenario where I KNOW someone knows what i need, want, ask, mean....and they become more and more determined to do the opposite or worse, ignore it altogether, the more I am taken back to that completely helpless and powerless place.

I keep thinking, "I couldn't find a way to MAKE him see then, but I can make myself heard now."

And when I finally realize I can't - because someone has purposely determined not to hear because they are not going to "play my game" or whatever.....

I realize that, in the end, I am still completely powerless.

And that sucks.

So the question is whether I finally wave the white flag and just go where I AM heard.....or do I keep at it, hoping that maybe.....


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

happiness27 said:


> Here's what I'm in favor of: a person consenting and WANTING to have sex - which is not the same as evil, hateful, mean, spiteful withholding.
> 
> Women who may be reading this thread: You have a right to have sex when you want to and not out of any feeling of obligation or competition or fear of losing your man or being shamed because you aren't performing up to standards set by other women who are not you.





Mr. Nail said:


> *Unless your spouse doesn't want to.* Then you have the right to divorce, or the right to adulterate, or the right to masturbate. What you don't have a right to is freedom from the consequences of those actions. The same, of course, applies to *Men*.





UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Marriage is not for you then.


Several pages have passed and I'm not really sure who the comment from Upside Down World is addressed to. But, the comment earned a response so here it is.

I'm not sure that marriage is not for me so much as, I am no longer for marriage. The mess I'm living in has changed me into a person not interested in, Not capable of, Not available for marriage. And yet, it's not even _technically_ sexless yet.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Well, I don't know what other people think. I felt I COULDN'T - because I had three small children...so I guess I can empathize with people who are not wanting to break up a family where there are children, especially small children, involved.
> 
> You kind of try for the not-so-bad days and get through them and it keeps you hooked a little, even if it's just hanging by a thread.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to give such an insightful reply. 

The bolded part is where I hope that others can turn their effort.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its a combination. She knows I'm unhappy. She thinks I want more sex than is reasonable, but wants to make things better. I think she wants / expects to want more sex under the right conditions, but when those conditions happen, finds that she doesn't actually want sex at that time and tries to come up with a reason why she doesn't. 

So she will plan a romantic trip, hint at having sex in the evenings. But when it happens, she just doesn't feel like it. Doesn't know why, just doesn't - which she describes as feeling "tired" or "ill" or something 




EllisRedding said:


> I thought this was all a fantasy that didn't exist
> 
> Actually never heard of addyi, I thought it was some sort of abbreviation for infidelity lol.
> 
> @uhtred - I am not entirely familiar with your situation. It sounds like your Wife is aware of your unhappiness with your sex life. Has she actually worked with you to address, or is it just "This is who I am so deal with it"?


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I just figured out the cycle...
> 
> I wanted intimacy and touch from my ex so very badly. And he KNEW that was what I wanted and needed. And the clearer I made it, the more convinced I was that he knew.
> 
> ...


You aren't powerless. You have the power to let it go but you haven't allowed yourself to do so. It almost seems that you want to punish yourself for how it hurt others that were affected. Trading pain for pain will do nothing but rob you of some happiness. 

it may be a sin to divorce but it's done...repent, ask forgiveness that WILL be granted to you and don't do that again. ACCEPT that forgiveness and then offer it to others. You carrying around this baggage limits the amount of love you are able to give others when this hurt occupies so much of your mind. Jesus has offered you forgiveness and love. TAKE IT! Share it! 

Quit rejecting God's love and forgiveness.........you don't have the authority to judge and punish yourself.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> And sometimes....
> 
> It just doesn't effing matter.
> 
> ...


Yeah. Same here - in that marriage.

But it mattered for THIS one (the one I've been in for 28 years, having left the former)


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I am very grateful for my amazing children. I am grateful for the things I learned about relationships and expectations and what's important during my marriage. I definitely learned better communication skills because I had to. I and learned a few badd habits as well. There were lots and lots of things to learn. And I met my current husband after that experience when I was ready to. I don't think it would have worked 10 years earlier or 15 years earlier. Romans 8:28 is definitely true for me.

While I still trigger with pain at times remembering how acute those feelings of rejection were, I think my weakness is now or not so much about my marriage as it was. I think that I have never really let go of the baggage from the relationship I used to have with my mother and the dynamic of communication I had with my ex husband. They both had very particular personality traits, very particular styles of communication, and very particular reactions and responses during conflict. Any time I encounter someone who exhibits the same type of trades that my ex husband does and my mother used to, I get trapped in that same cycle of trying very very hard to be heard and acknowledged in an environment where hearing an acknowlegement is just not ever going to happen no matter how I phrase my communication. What I need to learn is to look for those signs early in my interactions so that I can loove away from those interactions before I become triggered and begin a spiral. In other words, I cannot change how they choose to respond to me. But I can change how I engage and when I decide to stop engaging.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I just figured out the cycle...
> 
> I wanted intimacy and touch from my ex so very badly. And he KNEW that was what I wanted and needed. And the clearer I made it, the more convinced I was that he knew.
> 
> ...



I can feel your desperation. It's very real because I was there too. Like you are dying inside and you can't get rid of that feeling. Absolutely horrible. And your wife telling you: sorry, it's not going to change. This is the way it is... WTF?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I'm glad you were able to take something from that desperate post, in absentia.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

uhtred said:


> Its a combination. She knows I'm unhappy. She thinks I want more sex than is reasonable, but wants to make things better. I think she wants / expects to want more sex under the right conditions, but when those conditions happen, finds that she doesn't actually want sex at that time and tries to come up with a reason why she doesn't.
> 
> So she will plan a romantic trip, hint at having sex in the evenings. But when it happens, she just doesn't feel like it. Doesn't know why, just doesn't - which she describes as feeling "tired" or "ill" or something


I guess the question though, in the instances you mentioned where she hints at sex, when the time comes does she actually reject you in one way or the other? Is it where she may not be in the mood at that moment but once things get started she is ok and actually enjoys it, or does she just avoid it altogether? IDK, to some extent I do think there is a bit of cruel/selfishness if she is leading you on into thinking you will be having sex knowing full well that she will put the brakes on when the time comes.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I'm glad you were able to take something from that desperate post, in absentia.


well, it's something I'm trying to forget, to be honest. It's sad my marriage has broken down, but at least I won't be in that situation again. And we have beautiful kids, so I just need to concentrate on that.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> I guess the question though, in the instances you mentioned where she hints at sex, when the time comes does she actually reject you in one way or the other? Is it where she may not be in the mood at that moment but once things get started she is ok and actually enjoys it, or does she just avoid it altogether? IDK, to some extent I do think there is a bit of cruel/selfishness if she is leading you on into thinking you will be having sex knowing full well that she will put the brakes on when the time comes.


My wife was like that. She had to make a concerted effort to get herself in the mood or even contemplate sex. It was all in her head. Once she was aroused, it was very good. But she found very difficult to want sex. In fact, apart from the very beginning, she only initiated twice in over 25 years of marriage... even before she started taking ADs, she had turned into a very low desire spouse. Not sure... I guess we had had our kids, so sex was something not particularly important... and she swore it wasn't because of me.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

If it is all in my head, then I actually have the advantage. Because since adults can practice control over their thinking, I can choose to direct my mind in a sexual manner. So women who use the I have to get my mind in the right setting excuse are actually kind of ridiculous. Because you can choose how you think.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

In Absentia said:


> My wife was like that. She had to make a concerted effort to get herself in the mood or even contemplate sex. It was all in her head. Once she was aroused, it was very good. But she found very difficult to want sex. In fact, apart from the very beginning, she only initiated twice in over 25 years of marriage... even before she started taking ADs, she had turned into a very low desire spouse. Not sure... I guess we had had our kids, so sex was something not particularly important... and she swore it wasn't because of me.


Yeah, I think to some extent this goes along the lines of Responsive Desire. To me it is one thing if maybe your SO isn't in the mood (at least in terms of initiating) but once things get going they are good to go and can enjoy it. On the other hand, if the SO constantly rejects or even if they go along with but don't enjoy it, then there are clearly other issues that need to be addressed.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Yeah, I think to some extent this goes along the lines of Responsive Desire. To me it is one thing if maybe your SO isn't in the mood (at least in terms of initiating) but once things get going they are good to go and can enjoy it. On the other hand, if the SO constantly rejects or even if they go along with but don't enjoy it, then there are clearly other issues that need to be addressed.


For me was a mix of rejection and acceptance with enjoyment... so I got a very mixed message there, which I could never understand... hey, we are talking about sex twice a month at the most, and when you get rejected you had to wait another 2 weeks so she could recover from me being an ass, which in turn is not very attractive and putting off and so the cycle perpetuates itself ad infinitum... :smile2:


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes she actually rejects with an apology saying she is "too tired" / "not feeling well", or something similar. Occasionally I'll get a "I'm really tired, but if you want I can try..." which is not exactly the most appealing concept. 

I doubt its intentional - its been a long time since I paid any attention to comments about sex at some point in the future. 





EllisRedding said:


> I guess the question though, in the instances you mentioned where she hints at sex, when the time comes does she actually reject you in one way or the other? Is it where she may not be in the mood at that moment but once things get started she is ok and actually enjoys it, or does she just avoid it altogether? IDK, to some extent I do think there is a bit of cruel/selfishness if she is leading you on into thinking you will be having sex knowing full well that she will put the brakes on when the time comes.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Yes she actually rejects with an apology saying she is "too tired" / "not feeling well", or something similar. Occasionally I'll get a "I'm really tired, but if you want I can try..." which is not exactly the most appealing concept.
> 
> I doubt its intentional - its been a long time since I paid any attention to comments about sex at some point in the future.



I've had my wife falling asleep in the cuddling/spooning first stage... which is fair enough, but you do feel a bit like a complete failure... :laugh:


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Yes she actually rejects with an apology saying she is "too tired" / "not feeling well", or something similar. Occasionally I'll get a "I'm really tired, but if you want I can try..." which is not exactly the most appealing concept.
> 
> I doubt its intentional - its been a long time since I paid any attention to comments about sex at some point in the future.


One of the later times my ex and I talked about sex, his solution was, "Since I never think about sex and you do, just let me know when you need it and I'll be there for you." Not exactly what a woman wants to hear, but okay.

Thing is...I apparently had a "tell." On the days where I was thinking I might ask, he seemed to "know." So as soon as I got home or he got home he'd be sure to talk a lot about how tired he was, how stressful work was (when he was working), how he didn't feel good, how he was looking forward to going to bed early to get some rest, yada yada yada.

Now the ultra stubborn wold say that I still should have asked and not played his game. But I say he was either setting up his inevitable rejection, or it would be a "chore." For example, one time I DID go ahead and make my desires clear. He moaned about being tired a couple of more times and became engrossed in television, so I went on to bed. He came to bed about a half hour later, and rubbed my back. I told him it really was okay if he was tired and that I was almost asleep anyway so he didn't have to worry about it or feel bad. He got irritated and snapped, "Well, I've already taken the PILL now!" And for the predictable "maybe he avoided sex because of ED" remarks...no. He didn't have trouble with that. They were samples he would use to speed up the process when he really didn't want to but I did.

Yeah....

We ended up having sex that night since he had taken the pill. He immediately got up and unpaused his TV show, and I rolled over and cried myself to sleep.

That was 3 or 4 years before we divorced. We only had sex a couple more times after that.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

personofinterest said:


> Yeah....
> 
> We ended up having sex that night since he had taken the pill. He immediately got up and unpaused his TV show, and I rolled over and cried myself to sleep.
> 
> That was 3 or 4 years before we divorced. We only had sex a couple more times after that.


That sounds pretty familiar. I stopped initiating years ago because the man must initiate rule was overruled by the "You're pressuring me" rule. I think I could handle sexlessness now, what I cant handle is the constant avoidance, and the refusal to engage in conversation. 

Looking forward to sleeping alone for the next three nights.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> One of the later times my ex and I talked about sex, his solution was, "Since I never think about sex and you do, just let me know when you need it and I'll be there for you." Not exactly what a woman wants to hear, but okay.
> 
> Thing is...I apparently had a "tell." On the days where I was thinking I might ask, he seemed to "know." So as soon as I got home or he got home he'd be sure to talk a lot about how tired he was, how stressful work was (when he was working), how he didn't feel good, how he was looking forward to going to bed early to get some rest, yada yada yada.
> 
> ...


My wife once complained that the sex had to be spontaneous... then she said she had to get into it mentally and she had to tell me when she was ready...:scratchhead::scratchhead:

But like your husband, she could anticipate the times I would want sex and she came up with an excuse... incredibly soul destroying and nothing you can do about it. I gave up in the end. Mission accomplished!


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

In Absentia said:


> My wife once complained that the sex had to be spontaneous... then she said she had to get into it mentally and she had to tell me when she was ready...:scratchhead::scratchhead:
> 
> But like your husband, she could anticipate the times I would want sex and she came up with an excuse... incredibly soul destroying and nothing you can do about it. I gave up in the end. Mission accomplished!


What I found out, and maybe I read into it too much, is that my W either consciously or subconsciously let it be known when she wasn't in the mood, almost preemptively regardless of whether or not she thought I might be. There would be times where it seemed like she would go out of her way to let it be known how tired she was. Other times it would be clear when we were cuddled up watching TV (i.e. would keep a little more space b/w us, etc...).


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> What I found out, and maybe I read into it too much, is that my W either consciously or subconsciously let it be known when she wasn't in the mood, almost preemptively regardless of whether or not she thought I might be. There would be times where it seemed like she would go out of her way to let it be known how tired she was. Other times it would be clear when we were cuddled up watching TV (i.e. would keep a little more space b/w us, etc...).


yep, sounds very familiar... but after one month waiting... :|


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> One of the later times my ex and I talked about sex, his solution was, "Since I never think about sex and you do, just let me know when you need it and I'll be there for you." Not exactly what a woman wants to hear, but okay.
> 
> Thing is...I apparently had a "tell." On the days where I was thinking I might ask, he seemed to "know." So as soon as I got home or he got home he'd be sure to talk a lot about how tired he was, how stressful work was (when he was working), how he didn't feel good, how he was looking forward to going to bed early to get some rest, yada yada yada.
> 
> ...


As easy as it is to get wound up about the women who avoid sex, I find situations like this doubly irritating.

I believe any man who lands a sexual woman has nothing short of an absolute moral obligation to tend to her accordingly.

Why the hell capture one of these elusive unicorns if you're not going to tend to her care and feeding? 

Incomprehensible.


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## bikermehound (Mar 24, 2017)

ok so with all this being said ,what is everyone doing to cope with the problem,finding a side piece

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> As easy as it is to get wound up about the women who avoid sex, I find situations like this doubly irritating.
> 
> I believe any man who lands a sexual woman has nothing short of an absolute moral obligation to tend to her accordingly.
> 
> ...


Its not that rare. Most of the time, they had a great sex life when they were dating...close to daily. Then the sex dwindles after marriage to a couple times a week and then goes to nothing after kids. Usually, the man does a fairly good job of fking it up all by themselves by getting friend-zoned by their own wife, then its too late. 

Unless it was a case where your wife was never sexual, in that case, you should have picked better.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

bikermehound said:


> ok so with all this being said ,what is everyone doing to cope with the problem,finding a side piece
> 
> sent from my sm-n920p using tapatalk


w. T. F.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

bikermehound said:


> ok so with all this being said ,what is everyone doing to cope with the problem,finding a side piece
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


Not if they have character


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> If it is all in my head, then I actually have the advantage. Because since adults can practice control over their thinking, I can choose to direct my mind in a sexual manner. So women who use the I have to get my mind in the right setting excuse are actually kind of ridiculous. Because you can choose how you think.


I am one of those women who needs to have my head in the game mentally before engaging in sex. I compare it to a light switch or toggle switch. I am not like that. I can't just quickly turn my thoughts from the 137 windows I have open in my head to "Oh, you want sex now, so I'm going to just switch off all this other stuff." I admire other people who can do that and I certainly wish I could. 

I wouldn't dismiss a woman who said this as "ridiculous" - I think that couples who listen to each other and learn how the other operates and work together on this will find better success, love and respect together. 

But telling a woman she's ridiculous for not being able to control her mind better is like trying to give a cat a bath.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"But telling a woman she's ridiculous for not being able to control her mind better is like trying to give a cat a bath."

Our 20+ pounder cat gets scheduled monthly baths. He doesn't like it but knows it's good for his stunning white fur.

There's a lesson there


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

I think my personal experience with sex within a relationship is that there are many things that are going on in a relationship and within individuals - and that sex is one of the ways that other issues within the relationship or individual become symptomatic. 

I don't really feel like having sex with someone with whom I have other issues or if I have a personal issue. That may not be the case for others - for others, they may be able to set aside anything else that is going on in the relationship or within themselves and have sex without any interference. 

If you are one of the lucky ones who can separate personal and relationship discomforts and have sex regardless, I admire your ability greatly. I wish I could be like you. 

But if you are one of those lucky people, just know that you are indeed lucky - and that for others, that isn't the case. Telling them to be more like you would be the same as if they were to tell you to be more like them. 

I think people need to agree on a set of ground rules, then a commitment, then a plan of action should either of these be threatened. What those ground rules are and what the plan of action is would vary depending on the couple's agreement.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

john117 said:


> "But telling a woman she's ridiculous for not being able to control her mind better is like trying to give a cat a bath."
> 
> Our 20+ pounder cat gets scheduled monthly baths. He doesn't like it but knows it's good for his stunning white fur.
> 
> There's a lesson there


Sounds like the cat gets handed off to someone else for the bath...is that the lesson?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> I am one of those women who needs to have my head in the game mentally before engaging in sex. I compare it to a light switch or toggle switch. I am not like that. I can't just quickly turn my thoughts from the 137 windows I have open in my head to "Oh, you want sex now, so I'm going to just switch off all this other stuff." I admire other people who can do that and I certainly wish I could.
> ...
> But telling a woman she's ridiculous for not being able to control her mind better is like trying to give a cat a bath.


I agree that many women are like this. I'm not talking about you specifically, just this situation in general. The behavior is that women like this often expect their husbands to do all the work for clearing her mind. The fact that he wants sex on a regular basis seems to be met with surprise and resistance. "What?!? You want sex on a random Saturday? But it's not a birthday/anniversary/holiday! You know I only think about it at that time!"

While I can totally understand and agree that women's minds work like this, it doesn't mean they are off the hook. They should also understand this, and take steps necessary so that there isn't so much to clear out. But rather than take those steps, the more common reaction is to push back and reject sex altogether. Dropping hints often backfires, as mentioned above. If he indicates he might want sex, she comes up with more impediments (e.g. I'm tired) rather than beginning the process of clearing and relaxing her mind if that's what's needed.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

happiness27 said:


> I am one of those women who needs to have my head in the game mentally before engaging in sex. I compare it to a light switch or toggle switch. I am not like that. I can't just quickly turn my thoughts from the 137 windows I have open in my head to "Oh, you want sex now, so I'm going to just switch off all this other stuff." I admire other people who can do that and I certainly wish I could.
> 
> I wouldn't dismiss a woman who said this as "ridiculous" - I think that couples who listen to each other and learn how the other operates and work together on this will find better success, love and respect together.
> 
> But telling a woman she's ridiculous for not being able to control her mind better is like trying to give a cat a bath.


I wonder though, if your head is not in the game at the start, does that mean you are incapable of having sex (or maybe better put, having sex and still enjoying it)? What I mean by this, there seems to be this idea (at least the impression that I get), especially for guys, that if they are initiating sex it must be purely because they are a hornball ready for some action. I can think of plenty of times I initiated with my W where I wasn't necessarily in the mood or my mind was elsewhere. Maybe b/c of that it wasn't as mindblowing, but I never thought to myself afterwards "Oh man, wish I hadn't done that". It was still enjoyable, brought my W and I closer together, maybe it helped get some of those things off my mind, etc... I do wonder how many people just simply dismiss sex with their SO purely because they are not in the mood at that exact moment (to me, making it much more complex than it needs to be).


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> But telling a woman she's ridiculous for not being able to control her mind better is like trying to give a cat a bath.


I thought that was when you tell a woman to calm down 

It can't happen instantly of course. I can't downshift that fast either. If I am in the middle of something and someone tries to pull my attention instantly away, it annoys me. I tend to hyperfocus.

BUT the point is that since sex is about the mind for her (this theoretical her), that means she CAN turn her mind toward sex if she has the desire. Not on a dime, but it CAN be done.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

wilson said:


> I agree that many women are like this. I'm not talking about you specifically, just this situation in general. The behavior is that women like this often expect their husbands to do all the work for clearing her mind. The fact that he wants sex on a regular basis seems to be met with surprise and resistance. "What?!? You want sex on a random Saturday? But it's not a birthday/anniversary/holiday! You know I only think about it at that time!"
> 
> While I can totally understand and agree that women's minds work like this, it doesn't mean they are off the hook. They should also understand this, and take steps necessary so that there isn't so much to clear out. But rather than take those steps, the more common reaction is to push back and reject sex altogether. Dropping hints often backfires, as mentioned above. If he indicates he might want sex, she comes up with more impediments (e.g. I'm tired) rather than beginning the process of clearing and relaxing her mind if that's what's needed.


If a couple is incompatible - if either one thinks so - and has truly tried, then deciding to part ways is a viable option at some point.

But either person in a marriage does get to decide what to do with their bodies. And they also get to decide with whom to do that.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I thought that was when you tell a woman to calm down
> 
> It can't happen instantly of course. I can't downshift that fast either. If I am in the middle of something and someone tries to pull my attention instantly away, it annoys me. I tend to hyperfocus.
> 
> BUT the point is that since sex is about the mind for her (this theoretical her), that means she CAN turn her mind toward sex if she has the desire. Not on a dime, but it CAN be done.


I agree, certainly. 

I get aggravated with myself because I am constantly THINKING about so many different things. My husband can easily switch gears on a dime. 

Frankly, I'm envious that he can do that.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I don't want to have sex with someone who mistreats me either. That is why, in the end, I stopped even wanting sex with my ex husband. However, I knew this wasn't how marriage was supposed to be, and there were so many other problems and so much water under the bridge.....staying because at least I didn't want him to touch me anymore wasn't an option.

But the things my husband did (and didn't do to me) were profound and ongoing. I didn't turn off my libido because there were dishes in the sink or because he asked if I had PMS without tact. These were real, hurtful, long term problems.

There seems to be this idea that anyone who thinks a married person should be able to expect some modicum of sexual intimacy is some raving sex lunatic who doesn't care about other people's bodies and has no feelings, only lusts.

It's rather insulting, especially on top of all the other stuff, aka the refusal to hear others.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I think my personal experience with sex within a relationship is that there are many things that are going on in a relationship and within individuals - and that sex is one of the ways that other issues within the relationship or individual become symptomatic.
> 
> I don't really feel like having sex with someone with whom I have other issues or if I have a personal issue. That may not be the case for others - for others, they may be able to set aside anything else that is going on in the relationship or within themselves and have sex without any interference.
> 
> ...


If one is too mad about the disagreement on what color to paint the kitchen, that's a problem. 

I'm assuming H27 is talking about important issues. But there again, adults can or at least have the capacity to, separate most disagreements from being a reason to not be intimate. 

Then there are those who use any excuse at all to withhold sex. That's an immature person playing games.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Then there are those who use any excuse at all to withhold sex. That's an immature person playing games.


Yes! THAT is what I am talking about. I would never pretend that all people who withhold sex are like this.

But the refusal to admit the TRUTH that these people DO exist is just baffling.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

happiness27 said:


> Sounds like the cat gets handed off to someone else for the bath...is that the lesson?


Nope. We wash him. The only way the groomer will handle him is if sedated.

Hmm. Another lesson


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I don't want to have sex with someone who mistreats me either. That is why, in the end, I stopped even wanting sex with my ex husband. However, I knew this wasn't how marriage was supposed to be, and there were so many other problems and so much water under the bridge.....staying because at least I didn't want him to touch me anymore wasn't an option.
> 
> But the things my husband did (and didn't do to me) were profound and ongoing. I didn't turn off my libido because there were dishes in the sink or because he asked if I had PMS without tact. These were real, hurtful, long term problems.
> 
> ...


Agree - my ex once said to me, when I sidled up to him for sex that I was a "ball-buster" - whatever the F that means. The hateful comments were near-constant. His message to me, in general, was that I was a ***** for initiating sex. 

I once read a new book from the library and when I was done, I excitedly showed him the book and suggested that he'd love it. His response was: "Why would I want to read anything that YOU like?"

The book was: "Jaws"


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Oh my goodness, H27...that just breaks my heart.  Ugh

I am VERY glad you found a good man to love you in the end.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Agree - my ex once said to me, when I sidled up to him for sex that I was a "ball-buster" - whatever the F that means. The hateful comments were near-constant. His message to me, in general, was that I was a ***** for initiating sex.
> 
> I once read a new book from the library and when I was done, I excitedly showed him the book and suggested that he'd love it. His response was: "Why would I want to read anything that YOU like?"
> 
> The book was: "Jaws"


Wow. I've unfortunately witnessed that terminology before, but it was always used as a a derogatory term for a wife who was making unreasonable demands while denying sex.

I've _never_ heard it used where sex itself was considered the unreasonable demand. Damn!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I do wonder how many people just simply dismiss sex with their SO purely because they are not in the mood at that exact moment (to me, making it much more complex than it needs to be).


I always wonder the same thing.

Many people insist that sex should only be had if both parties want to have sex at the same time. If this means that they're both spontaneously ready at the same time, then this seems unlikely to occur very often.

If they mean that both people should be *willing to give sex a try* at the same time, that's more likely to work.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> I always wonder the same thing.
> 
> Many people insist that sex should only be had if both parties want to have sex at the same time. If this means that they're both spontaneously ready at the same time, then this seems unlikely to occur very often.
> 
> If they mean that both people should be *willing to give sex a try* at the same time, that's more likely to work.


Even though I groused about lack of sex through much of my marriage, there have been a good number of when my wife has initiated. Ironically, she has an uncanny ability to initiate when sex is the furthest thing from my mind.

I never failed to rise to the occasion.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Yes! THAT is what I am talking about. I would never pretend that all people who withhold sex are like this.
> 
> But the refusal to admit the TRUTH that these people DO exist is just baffling.


They do, certainly.

What I was too young and immature to deal with was being able to navigate a sex conversation with my first husband. He constantly reminded me (he was 13 years my senior) that he was college educated and I was not - that anything I did was below standard (he was a former Marine captain) and that any conversation I wanted to have with him about our relationship was pointless since I should *know* without asking what was on his mind. It was maddening. 

What I found out after I finally told him I wanted a divorce and we went to a couple of lame counseling sessions (where he took up the entire session telling the therapist what an incompetent I was), was that he had been abused by his own mother who tormented him as a 2-3 year old for crying by berating him for wanting her attention. The way I've described that is putting it mildly. She did some pretty horrible things to him. She was lashing out at him in lieu of his father who apparently had cheated on her. When his father tried to come by and visit, she forced her two boys to pick up rocks and throw them at their father to drive him away.

When I say that I believe that people have issues for which sexual issues become a symptom, this is merely one small example of the myriad of individual experiences people have in their lives that they bring into their own adult relationships. 

As young as I was and as unwilling as HE was to do anything about the issues (he was a psych major, go figure) - leaving was the safest choice for both of us. 

I actually do understand that there are reasons for staying in a relationship and reasons for leaving a relationship. But because of my own personal experiences in relationships, I completely advocate for openness and honesty in a relationship. If that's missing, the relationship will be broken from the start. People HAVE to be able to talk to each other and listen to each other with an intent to become closer and more intimate.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Wow. I've unfortunately witnessed that terminology before, but it was always used as a a derogatory term for a wife who was making unreasonable demands while denying sex.
> 
> I've _never_ heard it used where sex itself was considered the unreasonable demand. Damn!


Right - I did not know what it meant (hey, this was the 1970s, no internet/google), but I was only 19. You know what, I still don't think I know what it means. Is it what you said above?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That's really awful.

Part of it is very familiar. On a recent anniversary trip to Venice, (trip ended in Venice) we got to this spectacular hotel room, view of the canal, lots of mirrors, gigantic antique 4-poster bed. I saw her glance at the bed and then start talking about how tired she was. I hadn't said anything. (Then we went out for a several hour walk...)

I stopped asking for sex a long time ago. After a year went by where I was rejected every single time I gave up




personofinterest said:


> One of the later times my ex and I talked about sex, his solution was, "Since I never think about sex and you do, just let me know when you need it and I'll be there for you." Not exactly what a woman wants to hear, but okay.
> 
> Thing is...I apparently had a "tell." On the days where I was thinking I might ask, he seemed to "know." So as soon as I got home or he got home he'd be sure to talk a lot about how tired he was, how stressful work was (when he was working), how he didn't feel good, how he was looking forward to going to bed early to get some rest, yada yada yada.
> 
> ...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I so appreciate who my husband is and how he takes care of me and how he shows love to me now. I do not know if I would have understood just how much I have to be thankful for today had I not experienced such a painful marriage before period not to get religious, but it's kind of like those people who grow up in the church and never really do anything wrong except maybe stealing a pin from the bank lol. They sort of don't understand that they need God's grace because they already think they are good. It's only when we really fall flat on our faces that we understood just how great a gift grace and mercy he is. Like I said, I know that's religious but it is an analogy I thought of period so if nothing else, my crapy lonely marriage makes me appreciate my wonderful current husband even more.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> As easy as it is to get wound up about the women who avoid sex, I find situations like this doubly irritating.
> 
> I believe any man who lands a sexual woman has nothing short of an absolute moral obligation to tend to her accordingly.
> 
> ...


They're neither elusive or unicorns, I've been married to two of them and have been in sexual relationships with other ones as well.

Sexual women are dime a dozen.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Personal said:


> They're neither elusive or unicorns, I've been married to two of them and have been in sexual relationships with other ones as well.
> 
> Sexual women are dime a dozen.


I've seen both sides of this. While there are plenty of sexual women, there are plenty who are not. There are also plenty who are not, but might be with a different man. I think you may have been lucky, or perhaps have an innate (and enviable!) ability to choose the consistently sexual ones.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Personal said:


> They're neither elusive or unicorns, I've been married to two of them and have been in sexual relationships with other ones as well.
> 
> Sexual women are dime a dozen.


Good luck finding one in suburbia USA.... It's all about the minivan and PTO... In enlightened parts of the country maybe.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

john117 said:


> Personal said:
> 
> 
> > They're neither elusive or unicorns, I've been married to two of them and have been in sexual relationships with other ones as well.
> ...


Pray tell....what are these enlightened parts of the country?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Pray tell....what are these enlightened parts of the country?


I don't think there is such a thing, really. I've encountered prudes in the supposed sexual meccas, and wild things in the supposedly prudish Bible Belt. Maybe the odds are slanted by region, but the discerning consumer can find the real thing almost anywhere.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Pray tell....what are these enlightened parts of the country?


I'd say the coasts, large urban centers... If you're expecting to find your unicorn in Topeka or Muncie or Louisville... 

I've lived in both coasts, the south, and now the rust belt. The coasts would be your best bet unless you're 60 almost like me and start doing the rounds at the local retirement homes 

It's a numbers game. No guarantees, but having the right attitudes helps. Age too. Live downtown anywhere in a cool high-rise and there's plenty of women to go around. Move in the burbs, lots of women too, but different things for different people.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Right - I did not know what it meant (hey, this was the 1970s, no internet/google), but I was only 19. You know what, I still don't think I know what it means. Is it what you said above?


Mostly.

It came to be used for any woman who gives any kind of a hard time to a man. It often was used to describe a hardnosed female boss by men who were bitter about working for a woman.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Personal said:


> They're neither elusive or unicorns, I've been married to two of them and have been in sexual relationships with other ones as well.
> 
> Sexual women are dime a dozen.


In the short term, absolutely. I have no doubt that it's common that most women are very sexual in the first X years of the relationship. I'm sure many of us here have experienced that ourselves. The rarer women are those who continue to maintain their need for sex as the decades go on. Those would be the unicorns.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

wilson said:


> In the short term, absolutely. I have no doubt that it's common that most women are very sexual in the first X years of the relationship. I'm sure many of us here have experienced that ourselves. The rarer women are those who continue to maintain their need for sex as the decades go on. Those would be the unicorns.


Then, I have been married to two unicorns. I think that making sex more about bonding and intimacy vs penis/orgasm goal oriented is the reason for that.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> wilson said:
> 
> 
> > In the short term, absolutely. I have no doubt that it's common that most women are very sexual in the first X years of the relationship. I'm sure many of us here have experienced that ourselves. The rarer women are those who continue to maintain their need for sex as the decades go on. Those would be the unicorns.
> ...


Piggly Wighly, maybe YOU are the commondenominator. Maybe it boils down to the kind of husband you are and the way you feel about women..


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

wilson said:


> In the short term, absolutely. I have no doubt that it's common that most women are very sexual in the first X years of the relationship. I'm sure many of us here have experienced that ourselves. The rarer women are those who continue to maintain their need for sex as the decades go on. Those would be the unicorns.


As the decades go on, my wife is still a sexually wanton and highly lustful animal as are plenty of our friends.

I remember being at my Primary School reunion a few years ago when a guy I went to school with, said he has hardly had sex through his more than two decade marriage. This shocked me and all of the women, who were part of our group. Since all of us related how much we loved frequent sex, with our similar relationship length spouses. We all found it quite bizarre, that his wife didn't want sex all the time.

A few years ago my wife and I lived in a small isolated rural town, where we learned much to our surprise that amongst the many women my wife befriended. We were rare as a married couple in that we both still shared a great deal of enthusiastic sex. It turned out a lot of the women were highly desirous of sex, yet for the most part they were married to men who would rather drink with their mates than have sex with them. Plus on the rare occasion their husbands or partners wanted to have sex with them, they often couldn't get it up and or were crap at sex. That said there was also a high proportion of men, who were withholding sex, from women who wanted sex as well.

As to our other friends, we know plenty of women in their 40s to the early 70s, who love sex and enjoy sex as they have always done.

In my experience women tend to be highly lustful, wanton and very carnal animals with a very deep well of sexual desire. Women are generally highly sexual beings at any age, which is finally being noted in more recent studies on women's sexuality.

Unicorns, pfft...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Yep, I have several friends who still have the fire, and my parents kept at it until Dad was no longer able, just a few years ago. They have been married 58 years.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Did it ever occur to you that maybe she feels the distance and wants to close it quickly?

What better way...


Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Even though I groused about lack of sex through much of my marriage, there have been a good number of when my wife has initiated. Ironically, she has an uncanny ability to initiate when sex is the furthest thing from my mind.
> 
> I never failed to rise to the occasion.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Piggly Wighly, maybe YOU are the commondenominator. Maybe it boils down to the kind of husband you are and the way you feel about women..


hmmm...to accept what you are saying, I would proffer that maybe I am the unicorn. That's not to say that I am any good once we get to the bedroom but I do think I am pretty good at moving women to an environment that allows them to comfortably express their sexualness in the way that is most comfortable to them. I often think men push women to express their sexualness in the man's way. This seems to make her feel pressure and insecurity. My penis can't operate under those conditions so I don't know why we expect women to. 

It is my belief that women are, on average, as sexual as men barring any hormonal issues. We men tend to concentrate on learning how to be a rockstar in the bedroom but don't spend nearly enough time on researching how to market tickets to the concert. That is just my opinion based on my own experiences with dating and marriage.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"In my experience women tend to be highly lustful, wanton and very carnal animals with a very deep well of sexual desire. Women are generally highly sexual beings at any age, which is finally being noted in more recent studies on women's sexuality."

Social Sciences guy says...

Subject to cultural constraints. The above would be par for the course in many countries, not so in others.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> hmmm...to accept what you are saying, I would proffer that maybe I am the unicorn. That's not to say that I am any good once we get to the bedroom but I do think I am pretty good at moving women to an environment that allows them to comfortably express their sexualness in the way that is most comfortable to them. I often think men push women to express their sexualness in the man's way. This seems to make her feel pressure and insecurity. My penis can't operate under those conditions so I don't know why we expect women to.
> 
> It is my belief that women are, on average, as sexual as men barring any hormonal issues. We men tend to concentrate on learning how to be a rockstar in the bedroom but don't spend nearly enough time on researching how to market tickets to the concert. That is just my opinion based on my own experiences with dating and marriage.


I was mainly referring to how you probably treat your wife and view your wife, along with how you view women in general.

I am VERY sexual - VERY. And I can tell you that a man who seems cynical about womankind would dry up my faucet in a millisecond. We women can spot that crap a mile away


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Did it ever occur to you that maybe she feels the distance and wants to close it quickly?
> 
> What better way...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Certainly. And, I think she got an extra rush from having the "power" to overcome my resistance. There was an extra special gleam in her eye in some of those instances. Made it extra fun.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

john117 said:


> "In my experience women tend to be highly lustful, wanton and very carnal animals with a very deep well of sexual desire. Women are generally highly sexual beings at any age, which is finally being noted in more recent studies on women's sexuality."
> 
> Social Sciences guy says...
> 
> Subject to cultural constraints. The above would be par for the course in many countries, not so in others.


I disagree. People do lots of things cultural constraints would disallow. Expressing their sexual nature is only a matter of them feeling safe and respected to do so. The few times I have dabbled sexually with a gal from a different culture turned out the same. She felt safe and respected to be her natural sexual self. You are the Social Sciences guy and I admit that I might be wrong which is why I said I disagree, not "you are wrong".


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

PigglyWiggly said:


> It is my belief that women are, on average, as sexual as men barring any hormonal issues. We men tend to concentrate on learning how to be a rockstar in the bedroom but don't spend nearly enough time on researching how to market tickets to the concert. That is just my opinion based on my own experiences with dating and marriage.


And hormonal issues are _very _common. 

But I do like your rock concert analogy. An excellent way of describing that phenomenon.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I feel for women who have to deal with the issues of menopause and such. I had a terrible time in my 30's, but once I had a hysterectomy courtesy of the Big C, that was solved. And while I wish people would turn the air down to 65 everywhere I go, I haven't had to deal with most of the change of life ailments.

The good thing is that there are MANY medical and holistic remedies for that, so any woman who actually wants to can deal with many of these symptoms.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> I feel for women who have to deal with the issues of menopause and such. I had a terrible time in my 30's, but once I had a hysterectomy courtesy of the Big C, that was solved. And while I wish people would turn the air down to 65 everywhere I go, I haven't had to deal with most of the change of life ailments.
> 
> The good thing is that there are MANY medical and holistic remedies for that, so any woman who actually wants to can deal with many of these symptoms.


Indeed. My wife has done a _fantastic _amount of research (most docs are pretty ignorant in this area) and it is bearing wonderful fruit at this time.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

PigglyWiggly said:


> I disagree. People do lots of things cultural constraints would disallow. Expressing their sexual nature is only a matter of them feeling safe and respected to do so. The few times I have dabbled sexually with a gal from a different culture turned out the same. She felt safe and respected to be her natural sexual self. You are the Social Sciences guy and I admit that I might be wrong which is why I said I disagree, not "you are wrong".


Social Sciences guy furthermore says...

First, a single example of a single "different culture" is hardly proof. I dated 3 Asian women in a row in college. One is about as sexual as my lawnmower. Never married, no dating life to speak of. We're still FB friends and keep in touch.

#2 was a rather adventuresome older (and bluntly speaking) rather clueless young woman that used her sexuality as a means to an end. Got her thru grad school, and allowed her to get married with a really good (and technically supreme) guy who helped her get along in her career. She's mid 60s now and looks amazing. We keep in touch as well, great friend.

Third is Dr. J2. She was a lot more active in the first couple decades, but as it happens to many ethnics she started going back to her roots after 50. 

But look at sexual attitudes surveys and such for different cultures. On the average, you're more lucky to hit it on with a person from X than from Y. You may find strange data points here and there but at large numbers they smooth out.

Which what social sciences is all about.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

john117 said:


> Social Sciences guy furthermore says...
> 
> First, a single example of a single "different culture" is hardly proof. I dated 3 Asian women in a row in college. One is about as sexual as my lawnmower. Never married, no dating life to speak of. We're still FB friends and keep in touch.
> 
> ...


John I said *The few times I have dabbled sexually with a gal from a different culture turned out the same
* I didn't mean that I had sex with one gal a few times but a few gals from a different culture. I communicated that thought poorly and apologize for the confusion. I will concede that you are probably right though that hasn't been my experience. I think there's a sexual beast waiting to be unleashed in women of all cultures, they just need the right environment. Again, you are probably right and I am responding out of cognitive bias.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Indeed. My wife has done a _fantastic _amount of research (most docs are pretty ignorant in this area) and it is bearing wonderful fruit at this time.


I hope "wonderful fruit" is your twig and berries


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Social Sciences guy furthermore says...

If all of these dalliances were in a controlled environment and not within the constraints of a committed relationship, all bets are off.

There's one country I'm familiar with - the asexual chick was from there - that had a novel practice. Two guys and two gals would get a 2 bedroom apartment and the gals get one bedroom... Then they pair up for the duration. The guys were often upperclassmen in the same major as the gals. After 3 or 4 years they graduate and go home their own way.

I was blown away. I dated her for a while and as an outsider it was nearly impossible to get to the inner circle. They dated in swarms. 1 on 1 dates? The devil. I did a few and realized the futility. 

I can't extrapolate from my experience but there's common behaviors. Like my s-wife. Thanks to Islam, they're not into PDA or such, not her, not the dozens of couples I know. Older? Pfeh. Great looking women in their 50s and such, ignoring and being ignored by their spouses. 

Sexuality is very culture dependent. There are false alerts - the fact that college coeds wear skimpy outfits to class means it's freaking Louisiana, not means they're out to get laid ..

Even within a culture... German women in Hamburg vs Hanover? Whop da Doo...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Bottom line, women are individuals. We can neither dismiss culture nor cling to it as THE explanation for something good or unpleasant.

That's why I asked about magical places. I KNEW your answer would be east coast, west coast, big cities.,

That isnt always true.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> I always wonder the same thing.
> 
> Many people insist that sex should only be had if both parties want to have sex at the same time. If this means that they're both spontaneously ready at the same time, then this seems unlikely to occur very often.
> 
> If they mean that both people should be *willing to give sex a try* at the same time, that's more likely to work.


I have to give a positive example here. W and I are very active sexually but on top of that during the middle of the day yesterday when I was in the middle of something, W opened the door to the porch and advised she expects me in bed, she'll be naked in five minutes, my presence and enthusiasm are required.....I saved the docs I was working on, and we all got nekkid. Three times for her before we showered to go out to a Birthday dinner. 

There's no reason to say no barring severe medical issues.

Right now I have a wrist splint for four weeks due to breaking a wrist bone last week. But still had at it.

Life is good when both participate. 
&#55357;&#56845;&#55357;&#56845;&#55357;&#56845;&#55357;&#56845;


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

wilson said:


> In the short term, absolutely. I have no doubt that it's common that most women are very sexual in the first X years of the relationship. I'm sure many of us here have experienced that ourselves. The rarer women are those who continue to maintain their need for sex as the decades go on. Those would be the unicorns.


I would not say that such women are unicorns, but agree otherwise for several reasons.

One, what's new and fresh always has that thrill factor that more established relationships generally lack.

Two, there are women out there who are "meh" to sex, or even averse to it. Yet they understand that without providing sex, they are likely to remain single. So they suck it up and provide until it's too off-putting, then stop

Three, women just don't seem to be as capable as men at compartmentalizing life difficulties and being "in the moment" for sex. I can (and have) get up early to clean and cook, have a rough and long day at work, come home and do more work, and still be up for sex. I think most men are similar, and most ladies can't set those stressors aside.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I think a part of the mismatch is that most men find most women attractive enough to have sex with, whereas most women find a much smaller percentage of men attractive. So there are far more mismatches where the man is hot for his partner but the woman is not hot for him than mismatches in the opposite direction.

And I think the compartmentalizing is also a big part of it. It seems more women than men simply cannot relax when there are items left open on their mental "to do" list. And I think more women than men need to be relaxed and feel comfortable and secure before they can enjoy sex. Lots of factors which, unfortunately for both genders, tend to all "nudge" in the same direction.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

DTO said:


> Three, women just don't seem to be as capable as men at compartmentalizing life difficulties and being "in the moment" for sex. I can (and have) get up early to clean and cook, have a rough and long day at work, come home and do more work, and still be up for sex. I think most men are similar, and most ladies can't set those stressors aside.


While this comment feeds into the stereotype that all men are ready to go all the time... in my opinion this observation is more so about hormone cycles. Your typical woman on a certain day of the month can have a rough day and then some. After coming home to screaming kids and throw up on the floor, she will be up for sex. Problem is that the guy thinks it is because he did something right that day for it to happen that way and credits himself for being an awesome partner not realizing that it was all just a monthly hormonal cycle. 

Meanwhile a man's hormones are just in a constant state of production for reproduction. The more time that passes without an orgasmic release, the more the hormonal urges build. To the point that it can be a rough day and then some. At the end of the day he is still ready for sex because he thinks he is a manly man. Nope it is just hormones building up, and this happens at a faster rate than compared to the hormone cycles of most females. 



> Honey let's have sex? Not now babe as I just finished shedding the lining of my testicles out my urethra so I am a bit tender and have a headache. We can snuggle and you just rub my back if that is OK?



Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> And I think the compartmentalizing is also a big part of it. It seems more women than men simply cannot relax when there are items left open on their mental "to do" list. And I think more women than men need to be relaxed and feel comfortable and secure before they can enjoy sex. Lots of factors which, unfortunately for both genders, tend to all "nudge" in the same direction.


That reminds me that there are a few things on my wife's "to do" list that only I am able to do and she has been nagging me about them. 
@Holdingontoit thanks for the reminder! 

Badsanta


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I'm glad my husband has never called me a unicorn. If he did, I would know which sites he has been on, and that alone would make me not want to have sex with him lol
#mantantrums


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Whatever the reason, the phenomenon is what it is - ladies more than men don't innately prioritize sex over day-to-day life circumstances. That it doesn't happen every single day doesn't make my statement untrue.

Most men would not be happy with once a month; that level of frequency is close to what is considered a sexless marriage. Since parents to school-aged children are always going to be scrambling due to multiple demands on their time, a lady expecting to just wait for the mood to happen is going to have a bad marriage.



badsanta said:


> While this comment feeds into the stereotype that all men are ready to go all the time... in my opinion this observation is more so about hormone cycles. Your typical woman on a certain day of the month can have a rough day and then some. After coming home to screaming kids and throw up on the floor, she will be up for sex. Problem is that the guy thinks it is because he did something right that day for it to happen that way and credits himself for being an awesome partner not realizing that it was all just a monthly hormonal cycle.
> 
> Meanwhile a man's hormones are just in a constant state of production for reproduction. The more time that passes without an orgasmic release, the more the hormonal urges build. To the point that it can be a rough day and then some. At the end of the day he is still ready for sex because he thinks he is a manly man. Nope it is just hormones building up, and this happens at a faster rate than compared to the hormone cycles of most females.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Bottom line, women are individuals. We can neither dismiss culture nor cling to it as THE explanation for something good or unpleasant.
> 
> That's why I asked about magical places. I KNEW your answer would be east coast, west coast, big cities.,
> 
> That isnt always true.


Social Sciences guy says...

You can't say much about individual women, men, cats, raccoons.. 

But when you're comparing populations, any and all aggregated behaviors are valid starting points. Whether physical, economic, social, or anything else.

Where this gets you in trouble is when you (not you you, you) misread the population cues.

Case in point. When I was a lowly Masters student in the Deep South there were a few compatriots also grad students. They were teaching basic science courses to 18 year old young women and men. My buddies saw the Coeds decked out in low cut shorts and tight t-shirts and showing miles of legs and smiling and all that and immediately theorized the Coeds were "easy targets" and started fishing. Mind y'all, we were the last state to go drinking age 21. My buddies spent (suffered) countless hours going to Country and Western bars with some of the Coeds only to find out that's not how it works... 

Anyhow...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Are you aware of how condescending the whole social sciences guy schtick sounds?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> I'm glad my husband has never called me a unicorn. If he did, I would know which sites he has been on, and that alone would make me not want to have sex with him lol
> #mantantrums


Social Sciences guy furthermore says...

Compared to the rest of your group you may actually be a unicorn. All it takes is a couple of outliers in anything. 

The unicorn level depends on many things. In suburbia USA, most women are married and past a certain age and socioeconomic level, they're competing with possible replacements so... Not likely to play frigid if there's a lot at steak. And by a lot I mean McMansion, private schools, exotic vacations, Euro SUV...I spent years taking the girls to one of the top dermatologists in the country right here. His clients were nearly all unicorn to be's. 

Move a few towns over and it's a different country. Rampant divorce, and not so much emphasis on, as DD would put it, historic preservation.

Social Sciences is your friend.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think that when scientists speak Ex Cathedra (I love the term, usually used for Popes speaking with infallibility), they should do so with great care to provide the sort of references appropriate to a publication, or be speaking on a topic where they have detailed professional knowledge. (and are willing to risk their reputations on their statements).

Otherwise its fine for scientists to proclaim their opinions, as long as they are not indicating that "science says". 






personofinterest said:


> Are you aware of how condescending the whole social sciences guy schtick sounds?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I think that when scientists speak Ex Cathedra (I love the term, usually used for Popes speaking with infallibility), they should do so with great care to provide the sort of references appropriate to a publication, or be speaking on a topic where they have detailed professional knowledge. (and are willing to risk their reputations on their statements).
> 
> Otherwise its fine for scientists to proclaim their opinions, as long as they are not indicating that "science says".


I don't know about His Holyness but with a doctorate in psychology I've suffered thru enough statistics courses to know the difference between individuals and populations .

I do have great professional experience on the very subject, as I spend a fair amount of time analyzing population data... And my professional reputation has been built on that.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

DTO said:


> Whatever the reason, the phenomenon is what it is - *ladies more than men don't innately prioritize sex over day-to-day life circumstances.* That it doesn't happen every single day doesn't make my statement untrue.
> 
> *Most men would not be happy* with once a month; that level of frequency is close to what is considered a sexless marriage. Since parents to school-aged children are always going to be scrambling due to multiple demands on their time, a lady expecting to just wait for the mood to happen is going to have a bad marriage.


 @DTO perhaps these women you speak of do not like prioritizing things that their men complain about.

Generally speaking a woman with a hormonal cycle with a tendency to make her spontaneously aroused only once a month is often very willing to be sexually receptive much more frequently than once a month. This would be because women generally do enjoy pleasing their husbands and in turn often have a libido that actually responds quite well to that... until he complains that it is not enough and makes her feel inadequate. 

This is perhaps why female moderators on this forum often cite that the number one reason that a woman avoids sex with a partner is because of harbored resentment. No woman will want to please a man that is unhappy and complains to her that she is sexually never enough to please him. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, statistics is hard, and I think its the most difficult in social sciences where there are all sorts of prior assumptions, biases and correlations in the data that require great care to get a correct answer. Worse, there is a lot of internal and external bias on what answers are "acceptable". (No one other than an astrophysicist is going to get excited over whether Lambda has changed in the last few billion years, but give people some statistics on how groups of people behave, and there can be chaos).

That said, are there studies showing that "In suburbia USA, most women are married and past a certain age and socioeconomic level, they're competing with possible replacements so... Not likely to play frigid if there's a lot at steak. " Are there studies showing that older and higher socioeconomic status are less likely to be "frigid" which I suppose means turn their partners down for sex more often. 

It sounds plausible, but seems to make a number of assumptions, in particular that higher socioeconomic status women put more effort into keeping their husbands. That isn't obvious to me since lower income women are likely to be left in much more desperate situations after a divorce, than are wealthier women.


Any studies support this? I'm not a social scientist so I haven't looked at this at all. 





john117 said:


> I don't know about His Holyness but with a doctorate in psychology I've suffered thru enough statistics courses to know the difference between individuals and populations .
> 
> I do have great professional experience on the very subject, as I spend a fair amount of time analyzing population data... And my professional reputation has been built on that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Look at a few different numbers between rich suburbs and working class neighborhoods...

- marriage rates
- divorce rates
- working adults in household
- incomes
- marital status
- education levels

By using those you can identify patterns and correlations. I had the benefit (?) Of being in the PTO for 15 years thru two kids, and there were some rather entertaining numbers there (divorced parent rates in elementary, middle, and high school being one). 

Or, look at sex by country. More interesting numbers. One or two studies don't always represent reality, but when every study says Japanese men and women have less sex than, say, Italians, it's fairly likely to be accurate. 

But that's populations. Individuals may or may not take after their populations. And so on.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> I think a part of the mismatch is that *most men find most women attractive enough to have sex with, whereas most women find a much smaller percentage of men attractive. * So there are far more mismatches where the man is hot for his partner but the woman is not hot for him than mismatches in the opposite direction.
> 
> And I think the compartmentalizing is also a big part of it. It seems more women than men simply cannot relax when there are items left open on their mental "to do" list. And I think more women than men need to be relaxed and feel comfortable and secure before they can enjoy sex. Lots of factors which, unfortunately for both genders, tend to all "nudge" in the same direction.


Not sure I agree with the bolded considering the males are the more visual of the species?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> I think that when scientists speak Ex Cathedra (I love the term, usually used for Popes speaking with infallibility), they should do so with great care to provide the sort of references appropriate to a publication, or be speaking on a topic where they have detailed professional knowledge. (and are willing to risk their reputations on their statements).
> 
> Otherwise its fine for scientists to proclaim their opinions, as long as they are not indicating that "science says".


It's not about quoting studies for me. It's about how that whole "social sciences guy says" thing sounds like:

Neener neener, I know better than you do!

It's just annoying.

And you would think that someone versed in psychology would understanding how off-putting it is, especially after about the 10th time it is done.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Are divorce rates higher or lower in wealthy neighborhoods? I see to competing effects in what you wrote: I think you are claiming that wealthy men have more opportunities, but also that wives of wealthy men put more effort into keeping their husbands. Which way do you predict the overall effect goes?

Not too surprising that income correlates with wealthy areas :wink2:

I could see number of working adults going both ways - low income families may need multiple incomes to get by. Wealthy families may be more likely to have a single high-income earner.




john117 said:


> Look at a few different numbers between rich suburbs and working class neighborhoods...
> 
> - marriage rates
> - divorce rates
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> It's not about quoting studies for me. It's about how that whole "social sciences guy says" thing sounds like:
> 
> Neener neener, I know better than you do!
> 
> ...


Social Sciences guy furthermore says...

I'm sorry y'all feel put off about my comments... But reality says that at the end of the day, think about the message and not about the messenger.

Statistics is a very difficult subject to understand for most mortals. Whole sectors of the economy exist because humans suck at it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Is social sciences guy familiar with the term.passive aggressive......or humility?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Are divorce rates higher or lower in wealthy neighborhoods? I see to competing effects in what you wrote: I think you are claiming that wealthy men have more opportunities, but also that wives of wealthy men put more effort into keeping their husbands. Which way do you predict the overall effect goes?
> 
> Not too surprising that income correlates with wealthy areas :wink2:
> 
> I could see number of working adults going both ways - low income families may need multiple incomes to get by. Wealthy families may be more likely to have a single high-income earner.


There are definitely cross correlations in there. That's why number of wage earners and income and things like house price or size are important. 

To this day, the most mind-blowing fact about living in McMansion land wasn't what people make, typically low mid to upper mid six figures. It was what they were doing to make this money.

A lot are typical high earners, docs, lawyers... But a lot were like WTF how do you make this money doing that... and the arm candy wives that go along. Dr. J2 was one of a handful of working women out of 300 McMansion homes. 

I oughta retire and do some research on this... Very entertaining subject.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Is social sciences guy familiar with the term.passive aggressive......or humility?


I'm just your friendly neighborhood data analysis guy... Humility, is that for basements? Better check my humility-stat...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

john117 said:


> I'm just your *friendly neighborhood data analysis guy*... Humility, is that for basements? Better check my humility-stat...


So basically you are the Mr. Rogers of data analysis


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

aine said:


> Not sure I agree with the bolded considering the males are the more visual of the species?


Alternate way of expressing what he said, most men are attracted to, on a physical level, a fairly high percentage of women in general and those same most men would be highly UNLIKELY to marry a women they were not "hot" for.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

McMansions can vary in price a LOT across the country. $1M will buy you a fantastic house on several acres with a waterfront along a beautiful river in some areas, and a small run-down condo in others.

What sorts of jobs surprised you?

There is also some significant bias in looking at McMansions - since people who buy those are more likely to care about status symbols. The wealthy people I know don't have particularly high status houses - and have been married for a very long time. 




john117 said:


> There are definitely cross correlations in there. That's why number of wage earners and income and things like house price or size are important.
> 
> To this day, the most mind-blowing fact about living in McMansion land wasn't what people make, typically low mid to upper mid six figures. It was what they were doing to make this money.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

People say a lot of things, but I'm not seeing a lot of data to back it up. My environment is probably unusual, but none of my wealthier friends have especially "hot" wives - no trophies etc. My friends and I are mostly in our 50s, and none of us has divorced to upgrade to a newer model. Also in some cases its the women who are the high earners. 




anonmd said:


> Alternate way of expressing what he said, most men are attracted to, on a physical level, a fairly high percentage of women in general and those same most men would be highly UNLIKELY to marry a women they were not "hot" for.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> So basically you are the Mr. Rogers of data analysis


Unfortunately. I met my wife in a graduate statistics class .


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Around here a million will buy you an 8000 SQ ft 6 bedroom 4 car garage in an acre... Suburb in the rust belt. 90% stay at home mom, 5% dual income, 5% singles in my neighborhood. Few divorces, but tons of work to avoid being upgraded. 

What they do... Mostly executives, a few small business owners. My next door neighbor was the state manager for Sears. Another was a manager for a big credit card processing center. And so on. One high earning woman with token husband. I get her mail once a week because our mailman is a bit too sloppy. Exotic vacations, shopping, and so on. She's a corporate lawyer. Long hours, size 18, but I'd be willing to bet my lawnmower she's too busy for sex, family....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Best neighbor ever. CEO of a health care related company that was public for a while. Drove the company to the ground (under a dollar share price from $10-15 when he took over). Gets bought out by a big insurance company, gets a few million dollars golden parachute. Sues for more, gets suit tossed. 

His wife (trophy) told us he's a family man that had to live next to work to avoid long commute and spend time with his family. So, I noticed the guy would indeed be home at 5 pm daily. Not very CEO of him. He'd change clothes, load the golf clubs in the BMW 8 series convertible, and off to play golf with his buddies. 

We did have some adultery, but for the most part a lot less than I thought.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

aine said:


> Not sure I agree with the bolded considering the males are the more visual of the species?


Most of the studies of online dating services support what I posted. When asked to rate men on attractiveness, women rate 80% of men as having less than median physical attractiveness and only 20% of men as average or better. Whereas men rated roughly 50% of the women as being above or below average.

On the other hand, women are more likely to be willing to date a man they find unattractive. Whereas men tend not to do so. So your comment could be based on who women will date. Mine is based on whether they date someone they think is "hot". Often women date someone they don't find particularly "hot". One of several reasons why there is an endless supply of source material for Talk About Marriage. :wink2:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The whole attractive thing assumes choice. After a certain age choice is irrelevant because you ain't got a whole lot of choices. 

The 80/20 rule works well when you're a 20something in your first job and have as many choices as you care for. After 50 if you're male and loaded you have some choices depending on where you live and what you're looking for. After 55 it gets uglier. Next year I'll be 60. I can so see myself single and dating .

The Trump Tower apartment dd2 lives in is a microcosm of reality. It's a large complex with 3 different demographic groups. 

- grad students & medical students
- 20somethings working
- silverhairs working

The first group is the untouchables. A few seem to have paired up with others, most are single.

The second group is so damned good looking I wish I had a time machine in the lab. If anyone 40+ is thinking about trying out, good luck with that. 

The third group is more interesting. Most are single and working, because of circumstances. Many look good for their age - our own Dr J2 certainly does - but the chance of finding a mature sex kitten in that demographic... I wouldn't count on it.

It takes a leap of faith to assume that a mid late 50s woman that is single by circumstances will have time and energy to devote to wild enthusiastic anything... A few maybe, but not a lot. 

It's easy to be in a good relationship and a stable job and expect those who aren't are doing it wrong or look for unicorns etc. You've been dumped by partner and employer, and all you need is sleep to last another day working with people much younger. 

Those who do find someone able and willing have to go thru the chemistry and skeletons in the closet screening process. Not fun. 

I don't know really. Nobody does. It's not as hard as I said it is, but it ain't a whole lot easier either.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

What was surprising? What sort of "upgrading" were people doing?

Its a surprisingly different culture from where I live. Among friends, only 2 are divorced, one just now (at the wife's request) the other a while ago, I don't know the story. No trophy wives. No obvious attempts at upgrades either through clothes / surgery. A few nice cars, but nothing more than maybe 20% of combined yearly income. Lots of interesting vacations. A couple of private pilots, one race-car driver. Married couples typically close in age, and (now that we are in our 50s) married for a long time. Not many kids. Most dress like college students. 








john117 said:


> Around here a million will buy you an 8000 SQ ft 6 bedroom 4 car garage in an acre... Suburb in the rust belt. 90% stay at home mom, 5% dual income, 5% singles in my neighborhood. Few divorces, but tons of work to avoid being upgraded.
> 
> What they do... Mostly executives, a few small business owners. My next door neighbor was the state manager for Sears. Another was a manager for a big credit card processing center. And so on. One high earning woman with token husband. I get her mail once a week because our mailman is a bit too sloppy. Exotic vacations, shopping, and so on. She's a corporate lawyer. Long hours, size 18, but I'd be willing to bet my lawnmower she's too busy for sex, family....


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> What was surprising? What sort of "upgrading" were people doing?
> 
> Its a surprisingly different culture from where I live. Among friends, only 2 are divorced, one just now (at the wife's request) the other a while ago, I don't know the story. No trophy wives. No obvious attempts at upgrades either through clothes / surgery. A few nice cars, but nothing more than maybe 20% of combined yearly income. Lots of interesting vacations. A couple of private pilots, one race-car driver. Married couples typically close in age, and (now that we are in our 50s) married for a long time. Not many kids. Most dress like college students.


In my friend circles (40-60) I mostly know and or have known some engineers, academics, teachers, barristers, politicians, artists, gallery directors, librarians, journalists, authors, publishers, television and movie actors/actresses, a radio personality, government bureaucrats, airline and executive pilots, intelligence professionals, defence members both enlisted and officers, a few farmers, plus an investment banker.

What uhtred has describes in the post quoted above and another previously, is similar to the people I know. A lot of what @john117 often relates, seems like an alien world to me.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Self selection at it's finest. Trendy American suburb with fairly narrow socioeconomic conditions and equally narrow mindsets.

It's alien to me as well after living here for 3 decades.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> Around here a million will buy you an 8000 SQ ft 6 bedroom 4 car garage in an acre... Suburb in the rust belt. 90% stay at home mom, 5% dual income, 5% singles in my neighborhood. Few divorces, but tons of work to avoid being upgraded.
> 
> What they do... Mostly executives, a few small business owners. My next door neighbor was the state manager for Sears. Another was a manager for a big credit card processing center. And so on. One high earning woman with token husband. I get her mail once a week because our mailman is a bit too sloppy. Exotic vacations, shopping, and so on. She's a corporate lawyer. Long hours, size 18, but I'd be willing to bet my lawnmower she's too busy for sex, family....


Like they say it’s all about location.
Eight thousand square feet on an acre of land for a million?
Don’t ever move to where I live in MA.
As for divorce,my gf and me are the only unmarried couple in the estate and also the youngest by at least twenty years.
Most of the neighbors are CEO level or corporate lawyers and I don’t think there has been a divorce since I moved in about six years ago.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Not MA. I lived in Cambridge for a while. Think any wealthy suburb of a large metro area in the rust belt. It's quite common.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Isn't Cambridge mostly a high priced college town? (that isn't a negative btw). 
@john117 what sort of area were you describing earlier with the upgrades, and women trying hard to avoid being traded in? Was this a mostly rural area? You description is just so different from anything I've experienced.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Isn't Cambridge mostly a high priced college town? (that isn't a negative btw).
> 
> @john117 what sort of area were you describing earlier with the upgrades, and women trying hard to avoid being traded in? Was this a mostly rural area? You description is just so different from anything I've experienced.


Rust belt, South, Southwest, Southeast... Basically anything outside Northeast and west coast. Take any large city 1+M population, and you'll find the burb that has the (*) money. Kansas City has Overland Park, Chicago has Naperville or Schaumburg, Detroit has Rochester, Columbus has Dublin, and so on. 

(*) New money. Not old money. And not seven figures Long Island type places for rich New Yorkers...

The south has even more because of lower costs. In most of those a McMansion of 5000-8000 SQ ft on .5 to 1 acre is around 1 M to 1.5 M. 

The coasts have distorted property values but even when people have money and land they don't overbuild. Portland OR was a good example. I spent a couple of months there and was amazed. 

The demographics for such places are people in their 40s to early 50s, kids, professionals, top schools in the state, and so on. Fairly well "segregated" via many ways.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

john117 said:


> Rust belt, South, Southwest, Southeast... Basically anything outside Northeast and west coast. Take any large city 1+M population, and you'll find the burb that has the (*) money. Kansas City has Overland Park, Chicago has Naperville or Schaumburg, Detroit has Rochester, Columbus has Dublin, and so on.
> 
> (*) New money. Not old money. And not seven figures Long Island type places for rich New Yorkers...
> 
> ...


A 5000SQ house would cost around 1M in the areas you describe? Sounds more than I would expect since a 5000SQ in the burbs (Long Island, etc...) would go for approx that much (as long as you aren't talking about property right on the coast or a few select towns).


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> A 5000SQ house would cost around 1M in the areas you describe? Sounds more than I would expect since a 5000SQ in the burbs (Long Island, etc...) would go for approx that much (as long as you aren't talking about property right on the coast or a few select towns).


I live about twenty minutes drive from Boston,for a house the size you are talking about you need another zero on your million.A few miles from me there is a house for sale for eighteen and a half million,it’s about fifteen thousand square feet or so and it’s on four acres.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Andy1001 said:


> I live about twenty minutes drive from Boston,for a house the size you are talking about you need another zero on your million.A few miles from me there is a house for sale for eighteen and a half million,it’s about fifteen thousand square feet or so and it’s on four acres.


Yeah, but also depends on the area. Where i live you can get a house at 5000SQ feet for a million or just under. 15 minutes away the same house could cost 10 million plus. I also happen to live in one of the most expensive real estate markets which is why I was a little surprised at Johns figures for I am guessing South/Midwest


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

LOL

I have lived in the Southeast all my life. Interacted with a large number of people in 4 states. Nah....there is no plastic surgery/trophy wife/upgrade trend down here. Maybe if you are talking about parts of Texas. But not in the actually southeast...no matter how many "guys" insist it is so.

The house talk is blowing my mind though. I live in a city with a really good school system and various amenities. Hubby and I are considering a house, and we want to stay under 200K. That will get us 3-4 bedrooms, 2-2.5 baths, 2000 square feet, and 1/2 or so acre.

I cannot fathom spending a million dollars.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> LOL
> 
> I have lived in the Southeast all my life. Interacted with a large number of people in 4 states. Nah....there is no plastic surgery/trophy wife/upgrade trend down here. Maybe if you are talking about parts of Texas. But not in the actually southeast...no matter how many "guys" insist it is so.
> 
> ...


Yeah, unfortunately where I live, you will probably need to spend 400-500k for that type of house, with a nice $10k + in property taxes a year.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Realestate values vary all over the map. In Silicon Valley, you can't get a condo for less than a million and anything you would call a house would be >$2M. In Manhattan, a brownstone is millions. 

Of course those areas have far higher-paying job opportunities than there are in less expensive parts of the country. Whether the pay is worth it to live in a far tinier house is a personal decision.

I haven't lived in that many different cultural part of the US, so I've never seen the traditional "trophy wives", plastic surgery, etc etc that some people have observed. 

An old college friend of mine owns his own biz-jet, and is still married to the woman he dated in college 35 years ago. (She is a very nice person, but at 55, unlikely to be considered a "trophy wife"). This is the sort of guy who gives millions a year to charity, and hosts parties that look like something out of a Hollywood movie, so he certainly could afford a trophy wife if he wanted one. It appears he actually loves his wife. 








personofinterest said:


> LOL
> 
> I have lived in the Southeast all my life. Interacted with a large number of people in 4 states. Nah....there is no plastic surgery/trophy wife/upgrade trend down here. Maybe if you are talking about parts of Texas. But not in the actually southeast...no matter how many "guys" insist it is so.
> 
> ...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

EllisRedding said:


> Yeah, unfortunately where I live, you will probably need to spend 400-500k for that type of house, with a nice $10k + in property taxes a year.


Property taxes in our state are pretty low....which explains why some things aren't so great. We just tried to pass a certain millage tax for schools. It would have raised the taxes of someone with 200K home 100 dollars per year. It was voted down. 

I dun raised my younguns and I ain't payin fer nobody else's!


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> Yeah, unfortunately where I live, you will probably need to spend 400-500k for that type of house, with a nice $10k + in property taxes a year.


When my parents died everything was shared between my brother and me.They lived in Edinburgh but still kept an apartment in Manhattan.
I got the apt and my brother got the house in Scotland.I never sold it and I let various relatives from Europe stay there for a few months at a time.
Last year I was offered half a million.
For the three parking spaces in the parking lot underneath.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Andy1001 said:


> When my parents died everything was shared between my brother and me.They lived in Edinburgh but still kept an apartment in Manhattan.
> I got the apt and my brother got the house in Scotland.I never sold it and I let various relatives from Europe stay there for a few months at a time.
> Last year I was offered half a million.
> For the three parking spaces in the parking lot underneath.



WOW

I love Edinburgh.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> WOW
> 
> I love Edinburgh.


I’m getting married next month.
In Edinburgh lol.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Andy1001 said:


> I’m getting married next month.
> In Edinburgh lol.


CONGRATULATIONS!

That will be a beautiful place to get married.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Andy1001 said:


> When my parents died everything was shared between my brother and me.They lived in Edinburgh but still kept an apartment in Manhattan.
> I got the apt and my brother got the house in Scotland.I never sold it and I let various relatives from Europe stay there for a few months at a time.
> Last year I was offered half a million.
> For the three parking spaces in the parking lot underneath.


Congrats on getting 500k for your Brother!


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> Congrats on getting 500k for your Brother!


The parking lot is in Manhattan lol.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> A 5000SQ house would cost around 1M in the areas you describe? Sounds more than I would expect since a 5000SQ in the burbs (Long Island, etc...) would go for approx that much (as long as you aren't talking about property right on the coast or a few select towns).


Depends on what goes in and how big of a lot. SQ feet aren't really what drives prices, it's amenities and materials.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> Depends on what goes in and how big of a lot. SQ feet aren't really what drives prices, it's amenities and materials.


Don’t forget the property taxes,around here some of the homeowners are paying six figure sums.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Andy1001 said:


> Don’t forget the property taxes,around here some of the homeowners are paying six figure sums.


The homes by me where they are paying 6 figure property taxes would be the multi million homes though (guessing in excess of $3mm). I get choked up every six months when I pay my property taxes :banghead:


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> The homes by me where they are paying 6 figure property taxes would be the multi million homes though (guessing in excess of $3mm). I get choked up every six months when I pay my property taxes :banghead:


This is because property taxes here this year are $12.73 per thousand dollars value.
The house I live in would be considered very odd by most people,it is on four levels but two are subterranean and it was built as a project to utilize state of the art technology.Its a long story why I built it but I was after signing the biggest deal of my life and with various tax breaks it didn’t cost nearly as much as it should have.Uncle Sam was very generous back then.
The area I live in is regularly voted the most expensive place to live in Massachusetts and because the actual living space in my house is twenty two thousand square feet I pay a ****ing fortune in property tax.And for almost four years I lived on my own.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

In some places the money is all in the land. Often an old house decreases the value of the lot due to the tear-down cost. 



john117 said:


> Depends on what goes in and how big of a lot. SQ feet aren't really what drives prices, it's amenities and materials.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Bottom line. 

Socioeconomic conditions vary wildly and this greatly impacts availability of women . Who would have thought.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> LOL
> 
> I have lived in the Southeast all my life. Interacted with a large number of people in 4 states. Nah....there is no plastic surgery/trophy wife/upgrade trend down here. Maybe if you are talking about parts of Texas. But not in the actually southeast...no matter how many "guys" insist it is so.
> 
> ...


It's all what you're used to. Here in Seattle, a million might get you a nothing-special condo of 500-600 sq ft or so. To get a ritzy condo, you'd have to multiply that $1 million many times.

I see the nipped-and-tucked, stay-at-home housewives in my suburb, near Microsoft ground zero, meeting their expensive personal trainers or tennis coaches or hair colorists, frantically trying to hold back time. Many hot yoga places and cosmetic dentistry clinics and Pilates studios. You have to do it, or else hubby might run off with some young thing from Marketing.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That is so strange. I'm in an area that I would expect to be culturally very similar but I don't see anything like that. I wonder why it is different?

There are yoga places and gyms, but I don't see any of that desperation that you describe. As I mentioned earlier, my friends, many of whom are high tech workers, with fairly high incomes, are generally content with their long term spouses. 




2020hindsight said:


> It's all what you're used to. Here in Seattle, a million might get you a nothing-special condo of 500-600 sq ft or so. To get a ritzy condo, you'd have to multiply that $1 million many times.
> 
> I see the nipped-and-tucked, stay-at-home housewives in my suburb, near Microsoft ground zero, meeting their expensive personal trainers or tennis coaches or hair colorists, frantically trying to hold back time. Many hot yoga places and cosmetic dentistry clinics and Pilates studios. You have to do it, or else hubby might run off with some young thing from Marketing.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

2020hindsight said:


> It's all what you're used to. Here in Seattle, a million might get you a nothing-special condo of 500-600 sq ft or so. To get a ritzy condo, you'd have to multiply that $1 million many times.
> 
> I see the nipped-and-tucked, stay-at-home housewives in my suburb, near Microsoft ground zero, meeting their expensive personal trainers or tennis coaches or hair colorists, frantically trying to hold back time. Many hot yoga places and cosmetic dentistry clinics and Pilates studios. You have to do it, or else hubby might run off with some young thing from Marketing.


A couple of years ago due to unforeseen circumstances I ended up owning a health studio that was going bust.After a fairly small investment in new equipment and hiring the best person I could get to manage it (a former Olympian) the place took off.
It’s those stay at home housewives who turned it into a business making seven figure profit annually.
So don’t knock them!😁😁😁


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There's money in looks. The dermatologist my girls saw for acne etc was a two doc practice in the early 90s and a massive building doing mostly aesthetics today.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

john117 said:


> There's money in looks. The dermatologist my girls saw for acne etc was a two doc practice in the early 90s and a massive building doing mostly aesthetics today.


Heck, even plain old dermatology is lucrative. Now with all the wraps and masks and shots and deep this and that....MONEY

Did your daughters take accutane? That stuff is POTENT


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Yeah, one did accutane for a year covered by insurance back then, and went from Manuel Noriega skin to Kim Kardashian... Literally she was a walking advertisment . The other did laser treatment for rosacia (?)... Similar results.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

uhtred said:


> That is so strange. I'm in an area that I would expect to be culturally very similar but I don't see anything like that. I wonder why it is different?
> 
> There are yoga places and gyms, but I don't see any of that desperation that you describe. As I mentioned earlier, my friends, many of whom are high tech workers, with fairly high incomes, are generally content with their long term spouses.


These husbands aren't "high tech workers"--they're VPs of Marketing, corporate counsel, VPs of Engineering, Directors of Product Development or R&D, venture capitalists, and the like. 

These guys can look at what the other movers and shakers have in the way of a (trophy) wife, and if their wife doesn't measure up, she's history. Hence the motivation on the part of the wives to bring their A-game, whatever that takes.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I wonder if anyone has done a study of the various sub-cultures in the US. Why do doctors behave so differently from engineers, or scientists, or corporate managers? You could imagine National Geographic reporters trying to make contact with these various closed cultures. 



2020hindsight said:


> These husbands aren't "high tech workers"--they're VPs of Marketing, corporate counsel, VPs of Engineering, Directors of Product Development or R&D, venture capitalists, and the like.
> 
> These guys can look at what the other movers and shakers have in the way of a (trophy) wife, and if their wife doesn't measure up, she's history. Hence the motivation on the part of the wives to bring their A-game, whatever that takes.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

personofinterest said:


> The house talk is blowing my mind though. I live in a city with a really good school system and various amenities. Hubby and I are considering a house, and we want to stay under 200K. That will get us 3-4 bedrooms, 2-2.5 baths, 2000 square feet, and 1/2 or so acre.


That housing cost would be a dream for me. I'd pay around triple that out here, and that's way out in suburbia.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> First of all, the whole "sex against their will thing" is an eye=roller. In no way did I even imply that.
> 
> Sex really ISN'T as complex as that.
> 
> ...



Ah please, I do agree that partners must please one another, but please, do not reduce intercourse between two loving adults as synonymous with vacuuming! If the vacuum pipe must be inserted into his rectum in order to get the job done, then maybe one can say they are comparable. This is so reductionist.


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## bikermehound (Mar 24, 2017)

john117 i get the message but the other half does not so i am kinda at a cross roads on what to do 

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

aine said:


> Ah please, I do agree that partners must please one another, but please, do not reduce intercourse between two loving adults as synonymous with vacuuming! If the vacuum pipe must be inserted into his rectum in order to get the job done, then maybe one can say they are comparable. This is so reductionist.


Wow.... :|

Truisms can be 'way' overstated.
Certainly can be brutal.

Killing a fly with a sledge hammer works.
Is over doing fly killing.

The point made over powers the missive.


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