# Cheating and Empathy



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Sometimes when I read posts (on CWI and other forums) written by the WS I will notice how defensive some of them can be about their actions. Some of them come on these forums not wanting to be “judged”, and even today, I read about someone who actually wanted the BS to have EMPATHY for him, as if HE was the ‘victim’! Yet, empathy for his partner was the LAST thing on his mind when he cheated. 

To me, asking for empathy--or anything else-- without having FIRST given it, is the WORST display of arrogance there is, especially when it comes to infidelity.

Some say that people cheat because of "low self-esteem", yet I see that it takes a certain amount of _excessive_ pride (albeit subtle) in order to cheat. 

So what do you think? Do they cheat because of low self-esteem or 'high' self-esteem?

Vega


----------



## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Vega said:


> Sometimes when I read posts (on CWI and other forums) written by the WS I will notice how defensive some of them can be about their actions. Some of them come on these forums not wanting to be “judged”, and even today, I read about someone who actually wanted the BS to have EMPATHY for him, as if HE was the ‘victim’! Yet, empathy for his partner was the LAST thing on his mind when he cheated.
> 
> To me, asking for empathy--or anything else-- without having FIRST given it, is the WORST display of arrogance there is, especially when it comes to infidelity.
> 
> ...


I think it's low self esteem. Instead of high self esteem - maybe it's more of an ego thing. People with huge ego's and low self esteem will cheat as a way to feed their ego. People with a lot of self-esteem would not tend to cheat, in my opinion. If they're secure with themselves, they won't need external validation.

Now the empathy thing is really interesting. My stbxw has absolutely NO ability to empathize. She's always been this way. The most terrible thing could happen to somebody and my wife will feign concern and then forget about it. She has absolutely no ability to put herself in other's shoes. I think this is typical of the cheater's mindset: Ultra selfish with no ability to process the hurt they are causing for others. A complete lack of empathy.

It's a type of sociopathy. On the spectrum of sociopathic behaviour you can have serial killers at the far extreme and cheating spouses on the other. They're all sociopaths just to different degrees.


----------



## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

It's more than just low self-esteem that causes the WS to stray. You've also got to recognize emotional intelligence or the ability to read others, and the emotional maturity which is what cheaters like to run away from. It's more likely they cheat knowing it's hurting their spouse but then develop coping techniques to keep from feeling bad, and then later develop stress induced illnesses because of this OR leave. 

Either way this grandiose sense of self doesn't last because even they deep down know they are hurting themselves to experience a sense of pleasure and validations. Why else do you think they feel better initially after leaving the BS and then go through the same depression months later leading them to more affairs of a want to reconcile. 

Give it time man, pride falls before age everytime.


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Cedarman said:


> I think it's low self esteem. Instead of high self esteem - maybe it's more of an ego thing. I agree. I think I considered ego and self-esteem to be one in the same. As I read your post, it occurred to me that one can 'feed' the other. People with huge ego's and low self esteem will cheat as a way to feed their ego. Yes! This is my experience with my ex... People with a lot of self-esteem would not tend to cheat, in my opinion. If they're secure with themselves, they won't need external validation.It's funny. My ex once told me that he didn't think I had a ego. I told him that I have one just like EVERYONE has one. But I keep mine in 'check' so it doesn't lead me to do something I'd consider to be "wrong".
> 
> Now the empathy thing is really interesting. My stbxw has absolutely NO ability to empathize. She's always been this way. The most terrible thing could happen to somebody and my wife will feign concern and then forget about it. She has absolutely no ability to put herself in other's shoes. I think this is typical of the cheater's mindset: Ultra selfish with no ability to process the hurt they are causing for others. A complete lack of empathy.I guess one could say that a lack of empathy is a 'red flag' BEFORE cheating.
> 
> It's a type of sociopathy. On the spectrum of sociopathic behaviour you can have serial killers at the far extreme and cheating spouses on the other. They're all sociopaths just to different degrees.


----------



## Kaya62003 (Jan 8, 2013)

Vega said:


> Sometimes when I read posts (on CWI and other forums) written by the WS I will notice how defensive some of them can be about their actions. Some of them come on these forums not wanting to be “judged”, and even today, I read about someone who actually wanted the BS to have EMPATHY for him, as if HE was the ‘victim’! Yet, empathy for his partner was the LAST thing on his mind when he cheated.
> 
> To me, asking for empathy--or anything else-- without having FIRST given it, is the WORST display of arrogance there is, especially when it comes to infidelity.
> 
> ...


I don't think they have "high self-esteem" with that said, I don't think people who cheat think of anything but "themselves". I believe they are very self absorbed. Not all cheaters, but a vast majority do not care until they are caught...and some don't care even after that. 

In the movie "Take the Waltz" Sarah Silverman tells the cheating sister-in-law "there will always be a gap in the world, we don't drive ourselves crazy trying to fill it". And that made so much sense to me. I think cheaters feel entitled, are self absorbed, and like something is "missing" in their lives. 

I for one, am very capable of feeling remorse and empathy. I hate when I feel that I have wronged someone. I will do anything and everything to right my wrongs. However, I don't think "cheaters" are capable of feeling empathy. I feel they want to reason with themselves that their actions are justified. Because again they are self absorbed...they only think of their needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

"Society" does a few things to facilitate cheating at the various levels. Despite divorce being available, cheating is sanctioned because "the other spouse must not be taking care of business."

And at the levels of "inappropriate" or "EA", the BP is told that they are jealous and insecure. It's only lately that it's been identified that partners can be "emotionally unfaithful" and that can be at least as damaging if not more to the original relationship.


----------



## ChknNoodleSoup (Oct 20, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> "Society" does a few things to facilitate cheating at the various levels. Despite divorce being available, cheating is sanctioned because "the other spouse must not be taking care of business."
> 
> And at the levels of "inappropriate" or "EA", the BP is told that they are jealous and insecure. It's only lately that it's been identified that partners can be "emotionally unfaithful" and that can be at least as damaging if not more to the original relationship.


I agree with this. And yes I think low self-esteem because in my case, my stbx and I were always family minded people. We had little respect for cheaters. Which is why he needed to validate his cheating by 'proving' he didn't love me and hasn't for a while and I needed to 'let him go.' If he regarded himself highly he's never let a woman who thinks it's cool to flirt with married men near him. He was never the type.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Cheaters have lots of empathy.

Just not for you. 

They reserve it for the AP, just like they do everything else.


----------



## Kaya62003 (Jan 8, 2013)

ChknNoodleSoup said:


> I agree with this. And yes I think low self-esteem because in my case, my stbx and I were always family minded people. We had little respect for cheaters. Which is why he needed to validate his cheating by 'proving' he didn't love me and hasn't for a while and I needed to 'let him go.' If he regarded himself highly he's never let a woman who thinks it's cool to flirt with married men near him. He was never the type.


My STBXH had the nerve to judge a mutual friend of ours affair. He spoke of how rotten she was blah blah blah blah... He also spoke poorly of my daughters best friends mother for having an affair. My 15 year old daughter pointed that one out. I think that is when she lost a vast majority of respect for him (among the lies and betrayal of course)....

It amazes me!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

staystrong said:


> Cheaters have lots of empathy.
> 
> Just not for you.
> 
> They reserve it for the AP, just like they do everything else.


so true. When my fiance started to turn away from his EA, she accused him of leading her on. And he said to me, nearly a year after the fact he felt guilty about that. I asked him, did you think that you were leading me on?

Also, during that time the EA offered to dump the other guy that she was dating, because if there were a chance between fiance and her, she wouldn't want to lead him on.

Fiance and she were talking about me constantly, or texting in any case, but no empathy in my direction.

I find it interesting how the priorities get misplaced.


----------



## Leading Man (Dec 11, 2012)

I always considered my wife to have extreme amounts of empathy. While we were dating we went to a night club that had a band playing. She noticed a stroller near the stage with an infant in it. This baby was crying hysterically because it was so loud and the mother just stood there enjoying the music. My wife gave this mother a strong piece of her mind and the mother and baby immediately left. I complimented her on her actions and felt this was an attribute I liked in her. 
However I do think people can have a healthy amount of empathy AND be extremely selfish.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Leading Man said:


> I always considered my wife to have extreme amounts of empathy. While we were dating we went to a night club that had a band playing. She noticed a stroller near the stage with an infant in it. This baby was crying hysterically because it was so loud and the mother just stood there enjoying the music. My wife gave this mother a strong piece of her mind and the mother and baby immediately left. I complimented her on her actions and felt this was an attribute I liked in her.
> However I do think people can have a healthy amount of empathy AND be extremely selfish.


Yeah, let's not be snowed over by those who are so ready to be kind wait staff but ever so dismissive to family and friends. Sorry, yes, I agree you should not be rude to people whose job it is to be nice to you, but I get really annoyed by these same people who can't be bothered showing respect et al to the people with whom they have had a longer history.


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Leading Man said:


> I always considered my wife to have extreme amounts of empathy. While we were dating we went to a night club that had a band playing. She noticed a stroller near the stage with an infant in it. This baby was crying hysterically because it was so loud and the mother just stood there enjoying the music. My wife gave this mother a strong piece of her mind and the mother and baby immediately left. I complimented her on her actions and felt this was an attribute I liked in her.
> However I do think people can have a healthy amount of empathy AND be extremely selfish.


Hmm...not so sure if that was about EMPATHY. Some narcissists have, what seems to be, empathy for children (babies) and animals because they're 'defenseless'. But once a child had the ability to walk, all of that so-called 'empathy' went out the window...

Vega


----------



## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Yep...I went thru this as well...on DD#1 I was practically begging WS to give us another chance. That "I" would look at doing IC so I could be a better wife. I just get chills thinking about it. I can't believe how I acted...in desperation.

What bothers me the most is I think it gave WS almost in a way permission that he was justified to find someone else because he was not happy. Understand though that the tides have changed and he no longer thinks that nor do I subscribe to that same mentality that I had back on that day.


----------



## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

I think a lot of WS who come here to post and get advice are simply not prepared for people who are not in their land of unicorns and rainbows. To them, the sun is shining and the "don't judge me" attitude is so thick they can't see past their own noses.

My wife, who had a long term affair, is a teacher. By definition she stands in front of a classroom and holds them in the palm of her hand. I've seen her do it many times. She's had so many students who write her years after they've left school to say how lucky they were to learn from her.

But she's one of the shyest people you'd ever meet. She's always had a very low self-esteem. I wish I had really seen that. I mean, I knew it...but I didn't know it. That created this ego feed driven affair. Pure ego.

Only when I caught her red handed and slammed the ever living F out of her (figuratively!) was she able to see through her idiotic, self induced haze.

Pure ego. Low self-esteem.


----------



## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Low self esteem. It has always plagued my former WW. Insecurity and low self esteem. A deadly combo for someone who is weak willed and emotionally immature. DEADLY. And I learned there's not a f*cking thing I can do about it - security and self esteem have to come from within a person. External validation is nothing but a bandaid. Albeit an addictive one.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

C-man said:


> Now the empathy thing is really interesting. My stbxw has absolutely NO ability to empathize. She's always been this way. The most terrible thing could happen to somebody and my wife will feign concern and then forget about it. She has absolutely no ability to put herself in other's shoes. I think this is typical of the cheater's mindset: Ultra selfish with no ability to process the hurt they are causing for others. A complete lack of empathy.
> 
> It's a type of sociopathy. On the spectrum of sociopathic behaviour you can have serial killers at the far extreme and cheating spouses on the other. They're all sociopaths just to different degrees.


Not necessarily. Lack of empathy is something wich come along a variety of issues. If we are to talk about Personality Disorders and related issues lack of empathy is in all of them; APD, NPD, BPD, HPD, even extreme Passive Agressive people... self focus and inability to care of peoples fellings come in all kind of flawors.


----------



## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> Low self esteem. It has always plagued my former WW. Insecurity and low self esteem. A deadly combo for someone who is weak willed and emotionally immature. DEADLY. And I learned there's not a f*cking thing I can do about it - security and self esteem have to come from within a person. External validation is nothing but a bandaid. Albeit an addictive one.


That sums up my DW very well. I'd add in exceedingly poor ethical boundaries professionally and lack of respect for marital unions as well. She has been the OW twice (claims to be unwitting for one of those), DS once. I looked past the first two because she was young and in a bad place emotionally, but now my perspective has changed and I think her lack of respect for marriage has been evident for about half her life. 

I always thought MrsM was empathetic but there are people who can fake that. Its absolutely 100% clear she had no ability to empathize with me. She knew I'd been crushed by a cheating wife before- in fact, she was a shoulder I leaned on during that difficult time. She submarined me in a four months FalseR and escalated her affair to full vaginal penetration. She gave her POSOM his fantasy of nailing her in the theatre's sound booth- this after she'd revealed his fantasy and I'd told her how much it crushed me to think of them doing that. Zero empathy. 

Does a cheater throw away empathy, ignore it? Did they ever have it to begin with? Can they gain the ability to empathize back? CAN WE KNOW???


----------



## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

All WS are sociopaths and lack empathy and have either low or inflated self esteem? 

What about the WS who think, I try to be a pretty good husband/wife. Why does my spouse ignore me, disregard me or just seem to hate me? 

I think my situation is slightly different than some WS here because I truly do have a BS at home who would love it if I accepted his neglect and lies and left him alone. 

I don't think I'm a sociopath or a narcissist...and I'd say I have a healthy amount of self worth. Don't think I'm God's gift to the planet heh.


----------



## Link182 (May 25, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> Low self esteem. It has always plagued my former WW. Insecurity and low self esteem. A deadly combo for someone who is weak willed and emotionally immature. DEADLY. And I learned there's not a f*cking thing I can do about it - security and self esteem have to come from within a person. External validation is nothing but a bandaid. Albeit an addictive one.


:iagree:

I almost broke my hands clapping for this one. This could be the spot on description I would write for my WW.


----------



## thegatewalker (Apr 29, 2012)

*Re: Re: Cheating and Empathy*



Vega said:


> Sometimes when I read posts (on CWI and other forums) written by the WS I will notice how defensive some of them can be about their actions. Some of them come on these forums not wanting to be “judged”, and even today, I read about someone who actually wanted the BS to have EMPATHY for him, as if HE was the ‘victim’! Yet, empathy for his partner was the LAST thing on his mind when he cheated.
> 
> To me, asking for empathy--or anything else-- without having FIRST given it, is the WORST display of arrogance there is, especially when it comes to infidelity.
> 
> ...


Well most cheat because of a problem they can't deal with or will not deal with. I would have to say that most would be low self-esteem. Reguardless of that if you can't be loyal and not cheat don't get upset when you get a bad reaction and no one feeling any empathy for you. Hello you cheated and clearly are not sorry about it nor do you actully see what you did own your part.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

My former cheating wife is very empathic. 
She never lacked self steem to the point to seek on her own external validation. 
She jut got intoxicated with the atention OM gave her at a low point in her life, dropped the boundaries and couln't help herself.
It happens.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Vega said:


> Sometimes when I read posts (on CWI and other forums) written by the WS I will notice how defensive some of them can be about their actions. Some of them come on these forums not wanting to be “judged”, and even today, I read about someone who actually wanted the BS to have EMPATHY for him, as if HE was the ‘victim’! Yet, empathy for his partner was the LAST thing on his mind when he cheated.
> 
> To me, asking for empathy--or anything else-- without having FIRST given it, is the WORST display of arrogance there is, especially when it comes to infidelity.
> 
> ...


Vega, my wife had an affair. This left me hurting, broken and crushed. Did I have low self-esteem? At that point I had no self-esteem. And helped by too much alcohol, I had a revenge affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> Low self esteem. It has always plagued my former WW. Insecurity and low self esteem. A deadly combo for someone who is weak willed and emotionally immature. DEADLY. And I learned there's not a f*cking thing I can do about it - security and self esteem have to come from within a person. External validation is nothing but a bandaid. Albeit an addictive one.



Yeah, maybe immature and low self esteem, but professionally, my exH went on to bigger and better things like partnership and million pound bonuses.

I don't think anyone should get comfortable thinking that WS's are necessarily losers. They could be opportunists. Understanding this might help some before they even get involved.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

People with low self esteem cheat. 
People with high self esteem cheat.

They cheat because...

People like to feel good. 
People like novelty. 
Attention feels good. 
Novelty attention feels better.

Welcome to the slippery slope.
Watch your step.


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Kaya62003 said:


> In the movie "Take the Waltz" Sarah Silverman tells the cheating sister-in-law "there will always be a gap in the world, we don't drive ourselves crazy trying to fill it". And that made so much sense to me. I think cheaters feel entitled, are self absorbed, and like something is "missing" in their lives.


I loved that line. I loved too, that the implication was that although Sarah's character had relapsed, she was more "sober" in her view of the world than her stbxSIL.


----------



## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Empathy can't be faked but sympathy can be. That's how you know the difference, it feels fake when they are in their "fog", living their fake lives with their fake APs, in your reality. I believe WSs and APs are very shallow human beings living in all the trappings of novelty and opportunism. Excitement rules their world and they need it at any cost. That's why, as the stats say, most WS/AP relationships crash and burn. BSs keep the illicit relationship exciting. Once the BS is removed, they have to face each other and it's all downhill from there. If it "appears" otherwise, it's the fake dynamic duo keeping up fake appearances.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

DrMathias said:


> That sums up my DW very well. I'd add in exceedingly poor ethical boundaries professionally and lack of respect for marital unions as well. She has been the OW twice (claims to be unwitting for one of those), DS once. I looked past the first two because she was young and in a bad place emotionally, but now my perspective has changed and I think her lack of respect for marriage has been evident for about half her life.
> 
> I always thought MrsM was empathetic but there are people who can fake that. Its absolutely 100% clear she had no ability to empathize with me. She knew I'd been crushed by a cheating wife before- in fact, she was a shoulder I leaned on during that difficult time. She submarined me in a four months FalseR and escalated her affair to full vaginal penetration. She gave her POSOM his fantasy of nailing her in the theatre's sound booth- this after she'd revealed his fantasy and I'd told her how much it crushed me to think of them doing that. Zero empathy.
> 
> Does a cheater throw away empathy, ignore it? Did they ever have it to begin with? Can they gain the ability to empathize back? CAN WE KNOW???


Actually, I can imagine someone having such a disjointed mind that they could cheat on their husband/wife whilst at the same time having empathy for their injured spouse but in a different compartment of their mind.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Actually, I can imagine someone having such a disjointed mind that they could cheat on their husband/wife whilst at the same time having empathy for their injured spouse but in a different compartment of their mind.


As a recovering alcoholic. 
People does it all the time. It's not they have no empathy, it's there're other things which possess more power. They can empathetic, just not enough to overcome the other driving force. Being pulled in opposite directions is not nice. I call it being broken. 
Happens all the time.


----------



## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

WS want to be felt sorry for. 

Because think about it:
They realize their life could come crashing down around them, and the only person they have to blame is themself. 
Yet they don't want to do that. Most people that are a WS don't want to think that they are horrible person, capable of ruining a person's life whom they supposedly loved and cared for. Worse yet, ruining their children's lives. 

Therefore, they come here, hoping for empathy from other people, who will say that love will conquer all, and that they can keep their spouse, and that things will probably get better. 
Then when reality slaps them in the face, they feel worse. 

Or the WS is giant tool and doesn't give a rat's ass about how others feel, and carries on doing what they do best. But I don't think we have those types of WS on this site. We just have their BS on this site. 
Well, their BS and every once in a while, their kids.


----------



## Quantmflux (Feb 6, 2013)

IMO a WS the comes on here is different than a WS that would tell a BS to go F themselves (the "sociopath" variety potentially)

Someone who comes on here, IMO, recognizes their own guilt on some level. That makes most people super uncomfortable (realizing they are guilty) and for many a wall will go up. It's a defensive thing; no one likes to be beaten down and not everyone has the ability to lay themselves naked in front of a crowd and trust that people will cut them some slack.

I think it is always wrong to paint people with a broad brush. Not every BS is purely a victim and not every WS is a monster. Also, not every person who has lied and betrayed a trust is an irredeemable sociopath a few steps removed from a serial killer.

Betrayal is a brutal thing (I've been there) and someone who has been betrayed has every right to whatever course of action is right for them including immediately walking out, no forgiveness.

Some betrayers deserve the worst because they really *are* borderline sociopaths. These folks are purely toxic. Others, though, may have succumbed to weakness and got caught up in a hurtful period of selfishness. Doesn't excuse it in the slightest, but it also doesn't make them less than human.

I suspect that many of the ones who would put themselves out there and have the balls to post here are probably the latter. I dont think these folks, deep down, are expecting sympathy... I think thats a defense mechanism to protect themselves from their own shame. Its a kind of denial.


----------



## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

If the WS had empathy for their BS, they never would have cheated in the first place. The would know that THEY wouldn't like it if their BS cheated on THEM. 

But I don't think that cheaters either have enough self-awarenes to know how THEY would feel if the BS cheated on THEM, or enough enough self-control to use those UGLY feelings (the ones they would have if they knew that their spouse was cheating on THEM) as a catalyst to STOP themselves from doing so.

Vega


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Vega said:


> If the WS had empathy for their BS, they never would have cheated in the first place. The would know that THEY wouldn't like it if their BS cheated on THEM.


This is false, sorry. You are mistaken selfishness (we all are selfish) with empathy.


----------



## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

I think I found the best possible explaination for the lack of empathy in this article, The Next Guy: Did your Ex-Girlfriend or Ex-Wife Downgrade? | Shrink4Men

Why are cheaters not sorry? Because for one that would require taking responsibility for their actions wich is a mature decision, and two the AP helps shelter them from said responsibilities by enabling them to persue instant gratification 

*"She wanted to act like a spoiled 16yo again, so she found a man who would enable her."

"He wanted to drink like a fish so he found a bar fly who enables him."*

or 

*"She wanted endless attention from me and I couldn't give it to her all the time and still keep a job, so she built a fan club for an imaginary life on FB and then started sleeping with her top fans."

"He wanted to feel special for remaining unemployed and watching tv all day while I supported him, so he started having an affair with a woman who would mother him."*

You want closure and answers that don't seem like you did something to deserve this. You're not going to get it! Why would an addict apologize for getting high during a binge? Instead you're more likely to get blamed and shamed for everything so they don't have to feel responsible. Even after the affair is over they're most likely not going to own up for a while, unless they feel abandoned and even then I would take it with a grain of salt and wait for the "but" and the other shoe to drop.

The best advice I ever got was from a widow who told me to forgive her for stupidly throwing away a good man, and to keep working on myself to benefit the next woman I meet. Good advice!


----------



## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I frankly ignore the stupid request to not judge cheaters why shouldn't we? They're a cheater and as such quite deserving of being judged.


----------



## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

I supposed when my husband was judging me with the OW, so she could judge if she should spread her legs, I dont dare judge them...:sleeping:


----------

