# Interesting Article Suicide Shame Men



## LBHmidwest (Jan 3, 2014)

How are shaming men for weakness and suicide connected?insideMAN

Just an excerpt

The increasing problem of male suicide has been in the news a lot in recent weeks. Across all the articles that have been written on the subject, one word keeps re-appearing: “shame”.

For example, we hear that men feel ashamed of expressing their emotions and we are reassured that there should be no shame in experiencing depression. Shame is mentioned often but rarely is it properly examined. Shame, by its very nature, is something that we do not want to discuss. As a man who is recovering from mental health problems and who has struggled with suicidal thoughts in the past, I have had to face up to shame and discuss it in detail. It has been a painful and at time’s frightening process but one that has been key to my recovery.

I think that we, as a society, need to start having a discussion about shame and the dark places that it can lead to when people’s feelings of shame get out of control. When we look at the problem of male suicide and men’s mental health in general, we need to look at how our society sets up young men to experience potentially unmanageable levels of shame and we need to work together to build a society where this is no longer the case...


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Tried it once... nearly 30 years ago. What was important to me then is not important to me now but...

I can still feel that grip like it was yesterday.

Depression is like a thief in the night.. before you know it... it has you.

LBH.... we kind of know each other already from the boards..... did article on it three years ago.

Be glad to send you the link.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

This was in the article...



> Our society has, quite rightly, spent much time and effort sending girls and women the message that they can be strong, capable and successful. We have, however missed the fact that we have kept on sending boys and men the messages that they must *always *be strong, capable and successful.
> 
> The first of these messages is helpful and empowering, the second is potentially disastrous since it sets boys up from a very young age to have unrealistic expectations of themselves which can lead them to feel unhealthy levels of shame when they are unable to live up to those expectations. And this shame will be reinforced by those around them. Boys will be bullied if they are not always strong, men will be dismissed as “losers” if they are not always capable and successful.


 I agree with what is said here... good article .



> Psychologists will tell you that a key tool in combatting unhealthy shame is empathy. Empathy is when people understand your pain, accept you as you are and help to create an environment in which you can learn to accept yourself and realize that you are ok despite your imperfections.


Brene Brown is the Shame, Empathy, vulnerability" researcher. I was watching one of her videos a couple weeks ago.... and something stood out ... a husband came up to her after one of her talks.. and asked her point blank WHY she doesn't speak to men..

 Listening to Shame - Ted Talk - Brene Brown 

In the video..


> *16:22*
> For men, shame is not a bunch of competing, conflicting expectations. Shame is one, do not be perceived as what? Weak. I did not interview men for the first four years of my study.* It wasn't until a man looked at me after a book signing, and said, "I love what say about shame, I'm curious why you didn't mention men." And I said, "I don't study men." And he said, "That's convenient."*
> 
> *16:52*
> ...





















In this video* >>* Healing Shame  ...she speaks of shame and WOMEN..starting around 3:40 ...she mentions how she didn't speak of men, that encounter (above).....

Back to the subject at hand.. the article spoke how women use that phrase "the fragile male ego"... I believe I understand where you are coming from.. I touched on this in my last thread.. on Understanding the Male Ego ...My intentions using this phrase is likely not what you think....it's true...I see it on this forum all the time.. 

Far too often men can not openly show *too much* vulnerability / "negative emotions" as women will , sometimes instantly loose attraction for them...or see them as weak, pathetic, whiny little boys... 

I believe, us as wives, have a profound effect on our men, with our encouragement, our RESPECT, validation & love...if the man has LET US IN, and we didn't shut him down with our disfavor.. but have shown understanding......we have more power to heal, and build UP than we realize... Men too, need a safe place to land....this is part of our role as wives. But I say this cautiously... depending on the woman.. many will never be able to fully open up & show that soft side, a weaker vulnerability.. they have been there, done that.. and learned their lesson....so they go it alone...

When men get depressed.. they often feel they have to go it alone, then they find a vice, an outlet -often times not healthy...drinking, numbing.. anything to take away the pain..... we have a son who I felt needed counseling after a bad breakup / betrayal by a good friend...he downright refused. He will not open himself up to help like that.. too much Pride I guess.. The statistics of men killing themselves are much higher over women.. because of this shame...it's very unfortunate.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This was in the article...
> 
> I agree with what is said here... good article .
> 
> ...


Right as usual. I have never been suicidal but I have been depressed after my X wife cheated. And I had to go at it alone. Drinking and women were my only comfort. What I really needed was to talk to someone but no one is available for that except professionals and that's not a condoned thing in my industry. Until I hit rock bottom and realized I had to go and did. It helped just to vent.

In my entire life I have only felt completely open with one woman, my X. She used my vulnerability against me and hurt me with it. I doubt I will ever be that vulnerable with one person again. In my life I have found very unhealthy ways to cope with this need by never revealing all of myself to one single person. I guess somewhere deep down I hope I can find someone one day that can be trusted with and want to know the real me but that just seems a bit of an impossibility from where I stand today


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Wolf.... I can relate to what you said. We were Clint Eastwood.... unemotional, trained to exploit other's

weaknesses. My pop taught me it's best to tell a girl you think you see a serious future with... "a deep dark

secret" that no one can know. When / if the schit hits the fan.... see what they do. Each time.... my XW and my last g/f

told my mom this secret. Thing was.... mom already knew it. With the g/f... it was at the end so it just 

solidified my judgment to break things off with her. The XW... it was told about five years before DDay.

I "somewhat" trusted her up until that point (about things that are kept -in house-) but after that.... never did again.

In hindsight.... it was one of the early bricks added to The Wall.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SimplyA.... I can relate to your son's reaction. I knew a guy... friend of a friend.. he dated this girl (HS

sweethearts) and after HS she wanted to keep him at arm's length but date other guys. She did a number on him....

She finally dumped him and I told the friend -I feel his pain, I've been there- and he said he wanted this guy

to maybe hang out with us sometime, to get him out of the house. Maybe a week went by.....

he got drunk, played their song, shot himself. He was 19. I really never knew this guy.. but it bothered me

for a long time. Back in the summer '97, before I met my future XW, party at the lake. 

Some girl was either checking me out or the guy beside me.... a girl came by, told us her name... it rang a bell

but I couldn't place it. The other guy asked her maiden name.... then I remembered.

I left the party.... I was afraid of what I would have said to her "if" she was checking me out.

One story that tore me up was one I studied in 2010.... Phoebe Prince

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Phoebe_Prince


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Right as usual. I have never been suicidal but I have been depressed after my X wife cheated. And I had to go at it alone. Drinking and women were my only comfort. What I really needed was to talk to someone but no one is available for that except professionals and that's not a condoned thing in my industry. Until I hit rock bottom and realized I had to go and did. It helped just to vent.
> 
> In my entire life I have only felt completely open with one woman, my X. She used my vulnerability against me and hurt me with it. I doubt I will ever be that vulnerable with one person again. In my life I have found very unhealthy ways to cope with this need by never revealing all of myself to one single person. I guess somewhere deep down I hope I can find someone one day that can be trusted with and want to know the real me but that just seems a bit of an impossibility from where I stand today


That's tough to hear, but completely understandable. I think that a great many men feel much the same. "If other people think I'm not perfect, that's one thing; but they're not going to hear it from me."

Everyone loves to admire men with great accomplishments, or great abilities. Some deserve every bit of that admiration. Some accumulate it by walking over the backs of others, and failing to accept routine, but more important responsibilities.

Meanwhile, many men proudly accept responsibility and uphold it even when they've been shorted and taken advantage of. Too bad that same pride can make them go it alone.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

This is why I constantly argue when men and women try to say we are soooooo different. There are differences, but more and more studies are proving the alleged emotional and sexual gap is smaller than perceived, basically societal and not gender based.

SimplyAmorous that was an awesome post and I wish both genders understood the truth.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

@SimplyAmorous

:smnotworthy:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*UO*



Chuck71 said:


> SimplyA.... I can relate to your son's reaction. I knew a guy... friend of a friend.. he dated this girl (HS
> 
> sweethearts) and after HS she wanted to keep him at arm's length but date other guys. She did a number on him....
> 
> ...


 I was worried about this for a time myself.. .. my heart was bleeding for our son in the aftermath... Similar situation ...1st loves, he thought it would last forever, she did too!...almost made it to 4 yrs... the worst part... it was one of his friends he thought so da** highly of...he was helping out as a Youth group leader too ...this was the double dagger... this guy had the gall (& this still pi**es me off) to come to our sons's Graduation party...showing off doing the human flag pole..








.... that night, he's sitting in our kitchen talking to me.. laughing with our daughter ..some of our conversation was almost a precursor to what was to come....*HE KNEW*... 

He spoke how "all things happen for a reason"... "sometimes people learn hard lessons in life".....he started receiving texts around 1:00 am....*it was HER*... he's answering my son's GF right in front of me!! ...while sharing, eating with us...

Bombs were going off in my head.. but I held my tongue.. I woke my husband up that night told him she was going to break up... a heaviness came over me very strong the next day.. I cried, couldn't stop for what he was about to face..... 4 days later.. she texted me , wanted to make sure he wasn't alone.. she was breaking up..

For a time..I had to restrain myself from sending his Judas Grad $$ back ....how dare he came to our son's party [email protected]#... then they both treated him like a discarded piece of trash..... 

Husband worked with 3 guys who killed themselves over women.. I worked for a lady whose 1st BF did it... these things are ever in the back of my mind..having 5 sons... 

Days before his Grad party....she posted a pic on FB ... our son is holding her in the lake...Quote ...."I'm with this guy - he's my world" .... :wtf: was that ...

Looking back.. I want to throw UP !







We can't trust anything that comes out of people's mouth's... it's meaningless... 

Ya know.. I even took her side over my own son ... I was fooled into believing her gushing ... but truth is...son DID screw up, wasn't giving her enough time, attention (Flag pole boy was there )... but don't go on praising & mushing -when your heart is pining for another man.. what fakery [email protected]# ... She gave him a written note on his Grad day saying she loved him so much (ready to puke again)... so proud of him, that he'd have to accept her as his gift for now & that she'd give him his gift after vacation... 

His gift... a dagger to the







... taking his friends hand.. it's almost like she wanted to stick the blade in deeper...twist it.. move it around a little.. (Oh she waited 2 weeks to make that official )...










I've never been betrayed like this in love... yet I feel I've felt a measure of it watching our sons go through 1st love break ups.. (3rd son took it very hard too)...I guess he threw himself into dark music , grew an attitude of "I don't give a F*** " to overcome.. he did open up to me AFTER THE FACT.. not during... he's got a harder shell now.. he was tender before he got his heart broken.. 

Back to latest son's heart break....the night he seen those 2 together for the 1st time....he was visibly shaken, all those memories they shared hitting him.. he was raging inside.. he couldn't even speak to his friends when we were out for pizza.. (it didn't help she & he were there too in another booth)... he wasn't the same person.. we had to return him to college that night.... all I could do was pray... 

Thankfully he had this angel (the girl he rebounded with) & her caring family there for him..she was afraid to leave him alone one night.. they did talk for 6 hrs the next day... they are just friends now...she was HURT but very mature in just wanting the best for him.... I owe this family so much.. 

It seems he stepped out of the darkness... I found it a balancing act to be there for him.. but not speak on these things, allowing him to bring them up..if he felt... which he did open up some - and we talked deeply one day in the hallway.. one day with a car door opened.... I aimed to give him something to look forward to, ..his friends a Godsend during this time.. a couple of them girls who always had a thing for him....telling him he has girls lined up.. the confidence boost surely helped during this time..

Some of their words one night...snapped him out of his FUNK... he had a turning point, I felt this as he shared about it...he was here a week ago..... laughing, talking about his guy friends, their antics.. his old self shining through.. he's been working out daily.. showing us his muscles..I am feeling the worst is past.... 

But when I hear stories LIKE what you shared.. I want to scream!! Having sons.. and it seems the more sensitive type.. I need to care about these issues !! Our boys are not the user type...who fck 'em & leave 'em.. 

I hate to say they may be better off to be made of steel .. but better yet to still have heart but be resilient when life hands us the gift of betrayal.. learn from it.. He DID make mistakes.. 

Truth is.. Flag pole guy was more mature.. a little older, had a truck, a construction job...and didn't play League of Legends...

Yep he learned a hard lesson on this one ! 



> for a long time. Back in the summer '97, before I met my future XW, party at the lake.
> 
> Some girl was either checking me out or the guy beside me.... a girl came by, told us her name... it rang a bell
> 
> ...


 the difficult part about this is... we can't really blame someone -if another takes their life.. the injustice of it is so ugly....we almost need to blame ...what do we do with it...I would not want any of this on my conscience. It matters how we treat people.. Breakups will happen.. these can be done ethically.. it's when betrayal is involved.. how this rips to the core... son's story is so minimal - though not to him at his tender age.. compared to the blatant acts of betrayal shared on this forum, sometimes in one's own bed - with a best friend !!..


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I watched a high school friend stab himself to death at a party when I was about sixteen. His girlfriend had dumped him just a few weeks after his mom had walked out on the family. Right there. In front of about thirty high schoolers. He took a steak knife and shoved it in his heart. 

Glory days.....


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> I watched a high school friend stab himself to death at a party when I was about sixteen. His girlfriend had dumped him just a few weeks after his mom had walked out on the family. Right there. In front of about thirty high schoolers. He took a steak knife and shoved it in his heart.
> 
> Glory days.....


This truly sad. Goes to what I have thought many times about how our society fails men. The expectation of suck it up buttercup being the only thing a guy should feel. No where to turn, no one to talk to. Men are taught to deal with the physical pain but never the emotional. Probably why my X cheating hit me so hard. No one to talk to. We have to do better with young men. I have no sons but I would tell you something if I did I would encourage them to make and hold female friends. Hopefully so they can learn to communicate about stuff.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> This truly sad. Goes to what I have thought many times about how our society fails men. The expectation of suck it up buttercup being the only thing a guy should feel. No where to turn, no one to talk to. Men are taught to deal with the physical pain but never the emotional. Probably why my X cheating hit me so hard. No one to talk to. We have to do better with young men. I have no sons but I would tell you something if I did *I would encourage them to make and hold female friends.* Hopefully so they can learn to communicate about stuff.


I think talking to their dad or older brothers would be better. That is what I would advise my four sons, anyway.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

bandit.45 said:


> I watched a high school friend stab himself to death at a party when I was about sixteen. His girlfriend had dumped him just a few weeks after his mom had walked out on the family. Right there. In front of about thirty high schoolers. He took a steak knife and shoved it in his heart.
> 
> Glory days.....


 I can't imagine witnessing something like this Bandit, at such a young age.. this had to have haunted everyone for some time..

I am always curious of someone's mental make up in hearing these stories.. it gives us some comfort to write them off as JUST CRAZY ...but I've come to the realization that even those one would never expect, HAD EVERYTHING TO LIVE FOR... it's no guarantee...

I posted this on a suicide thread recently ...


> It doesn't matter who we THINK will do it or who wouldn't , that it's just "drama in the making".... many a family member/ friend has been wrong on this account... those with outgoing fun personalities have still taken their lives.. all it takes is an aggressively impulsive moment climaxing in a hopeless mind.....a moment they would take back, but it's too late... as a loved one.. we need to do all we can to reach them.. to show we care, that they are not alone..
> 
> According to this article ... Why Men Commit Suicide: The Three Warning Signs Most People Miss -
> 
> ...


There were other male suicides I knew...when I hear of it , I always ask "Was it over a woman?" Though not always... my 1st introduction to suicide was around my 13th Birthday...an Aunt's husband killed himself, recently he lost his job... he was a rather violent depressive man though...he calls her up, says what he was going to do.. she was next door.. heard the shot.. she ran over there & seen his brains spattered ...his body still shaking I guess. 

A 90 yr old neighbor shot himself in his basement shower stall not wanting to go to a nursing home...He would say things to me about "Why doesn't God take me home?"...I used to visit him & bring food sometimes. 

This was a tragic story...I believe Public shaming pushed this man to his breaking point....Family man, Church goer, fine reputation, adult children on their own...in his 50's... his wife left...he was devastated, lost, struggling... one day driving down the road, some teen on a lawn mower was on the road, he almost wrecked into him.. I guess he got out & shook the kid or something, lost control momentarily.... 

Someone decided to put his picture in the local newspaper over this incident.....this pushed him over the edge... within days.. he gets up at the break of dawn, drives to a nearby secluded walking trail in our area....calls 911, gives the location that someone shot themselves & put a gun in his mouth. 

So Tragic.. I can't imagine the outrage if I was a family member... it was a friend of a friend, he blamed the newspaper for his death, telling me his story.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I think talking to their dad or older brothers would be better. That is what I would advise my four sons, anyway.


That's great for your sons but that is NOT the available option in most American households


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I read that a minister exposed during that affair hookup site outage committed suicide.

Actually, some other men committed suicide from having that known about them, too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> That's great for your sons but that is NOT the available option in most American households


I think older, wiser men are available in communities. These young men would have to look or be directed to them, but they are there.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I think older, wiser men are available in communities. These young men would have to look or be directed to them, but they are there.


You think this based on what? No where when I looked for them. But as per my original post I agree that this is what we need to strive for but it just doesn't exist here and now


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> You think this based on what? No where when I looked for them. But as per my original post I agree that this is what we need to strive for but it just doesn't exist here and now


My neighbor does this. He more or less "adopted" a young man. Has really been like a dad to him. 

I have also heard of men at churches counseling and basically discipling younger men.
@farsidejunky, are you involved in something like this through your church?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Also, Wolf, Dug has had young men reach out to him on a personal level at work. Work can be a good source of contacts, too.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I've been reading on this subject ...well.. a lot lately... so let me ramble some...

Went to a Rock concert weeks ago, seen Breaking Benjamin.... went for Shinedown but BB stole the show.... so I get on you tube & start listening to interviews & such, come to learn the lead singer was a loner , was bullied in high school, he was suicidal for years ..at one point he wanted to drink himself to death.. ... Listening to their music.. it is DARK, brooding...songs like "Dear Agony".."Bury me alive"...(I should be ashamed I love this group maybe -but oh well- they ROCK!)... you'd think these would cause suicide ...but they also speak to a segment of misunderstood teens...

Found this confession  about a 14 yr old girl attending a Catholic school , struggling with being gay - who attributed Breaking Benjamins music to saving her life... I was touched reading this... Her story, too about being shamed when we are rejected, despised to the standards of our social group, their expectations...feeling alone, no one understands ...










Religious upbringings can DO a # of us in this respect... which this is something I need to work out within myself as I gravitate more so to people of with some sort of faith.. moral code to live by.. that it matters how we live & treat others, this is not a small thing to me or insignificant.. 

I have an older book entitled  Shame and Grace: Healing the Shame We Don't Deserve .......it speaks of "*Social Shame -the pain of rejection*"... 

"Long before modern psychologists came along to discover it, ancient philosophers were curious about the shadow of shame that darkened the lives of so many people. What most interested them was the shame we felt when we were disgraced in the eyes of our own people"... "Only people who are members of a community ever feel it.. and only a community that cares for it's members can effectively make them feel it."... 

This is the paradox of all true communities : "the closer knit and caring a community is, the more cruel it's shaming can be" ...it also said "Shame is the dark side to what we extol as family values".. This book was written by a Christian but wasn't afraid to speak the heart of it ... 

Compare his book with Atheist Dr. Darrel Ray , author of The God Virus, How Religion Infects Our Lives and Culture... I am not sure where I personally stand...but interested in reading all sides of the shame paradox. (I just ordered one of his books, but not this one.)

In "Shame & Grace" , author Lewis Smedes speaks of 3 ways we experience shame:



> *1.* We experience shame if another person despises us as if we were nothing but objects to use instead of persons to love.
> 
> *2*. We feel shame if we are despised and rejected by our own group.
> 
> *3*. We feel shame when our group is despised & rejected by another group.


******


Was listening to this You tube discussion yesterday...

*>>* Men's Shame  ...Everyone in the Recovery Community knows that SHAME is the ultimate driver in addiction and relapse...

At 9:46.. it speaks how we SHOULD be ashamed when we do terrible horrible things..."Look ...there are things you should be ashamed of...if one of you comes over to one of my cats, kills them, breaks their neck, you should be ashamed of that.. that's a terrible thing you did......it's terrible immoral behavior "..."but the vast majority of things we are ashamed are not even close to braking the neck of a cat"... 

He finds it hard to convince people to not be ashamed...


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> My neighbor does this. He more or less "adopted" a young man. Has really been like a dad to him.
> 
> I have also heard of men at churches counseling and basically discipling younger men.
> 
> @farsidejunky, are you involved in something like this through your church?


Again far removed from the rest of the world this is a very small. Your neighbor isn't available for all. This can happen sure but again my experience as a man, in need of support, and actively seeking it from friends, family, colleagues is the reality I see others face over and over. It's just not there but it does need to be. I eventually had to pay for counseling just to talk to someone. 

Last thing I would ever, and I do mean ever, do is get my sons involved in church. That's the last place I want them learning morality. And why would someone be disciplining at a church? Since when did asking for help require a response of disciplin


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think questioning the values of our culture could help, too. Not everyone is going to be rich or good looking. Neither of those is necessary for a happy life.

Learning to appreciate what we have, and not focusing on what we do not have, goes far towards making us feel happy, imo.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

We don't have a ministry for it. Our church is so small that we are limited on the ministries we can do.

I would love for it to happen though.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Again far removed from the rest of the world this is a very small. Your neighbor isn't available for all. This can happen sure but again my experience as a man, in need of support, and actively seeking it from friends, family, colleagues is the reality I see others face over and over. It's just not there but it does need to be. I eventually had to pay for counseling just to talk to someone.
> 
> Last thing I would ever, and I do mean ever, do is get my sons involved in church. That's the last place I want them learning morality. And why would someone be disciplining at a church? Since when did asking for help require a response of disciplin


Not discipline, Wolf. *Discipling.*
@farsidejunky Could you explain what this might mean?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Again far removed from the rest of the world this is a very small. Your neighbor isn't available for all. This can happen sure but again my experience as a man, in need of support, and actively seeking it from friends, family, colleagues is the reality I see others face over and over. It's just not there but it does need to be. I eventually had to pay for counseling just to talk to someone.
> 
> Last thing I would ever, and I do mean ever, do is get my sons involved in church. That's the last place I want them learning morality. And why would someone be disciplining at a church? Since when did asking for help require a response of disciplin


Who disciplines in church?

We don't.

I suppose there are others that do, but it won't happen in the doors of our church under my watch.

It is sad that your experiences in life had led you to believe that church is the last place your sons could or should receive support. I am sorry for that, brother.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Who disciplines in church?
> 
> We don't.
> 
> ...


That had much to do with my divorce and the church who chose to support my X, the cheater , and not me. 

My career has also tainted me from it I admit.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Not discipline, Wolf. *Discipling.*
> 
> @farsidejunky Could you explain what this might mean?


Ahh misunderstood what you meant :smile2:

but 100% absolutely not


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Ahh misunderstood what you meant :smile2:
> 
> but 100% absolutely not


Okay, then.

But realize you can always go in with the attitude of, "Take what works for you, and leave the rest."


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Discipleship is essentially mentoring. 

Of course, we can't just call it that...lol. Most people hang out...we have fellowship. 

We are weird...lol...but we love folks without judgement so that makes it okay.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Okay, then.
> 
> But realize you can always go in with the attitude of, "Take what *works* for you, and leave the rest."


None of it works for me. I find much of organized religion disingenuous at best. I was highly involved 35 years in it. Always gave never asked. When I did no one was there. 

This was a highly personal experience for me. And I don't fault others who go and believe. But it is not for me and I won't take my children any longer. Just a personal choice and I have been happier for it honestly.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Now back to Brene Brown, the Shame Researcher..







even if she conveniently has left men out, focusing on us women...I'm glad that husband confronted her frankly. 

She has explained the different between Shame & Guilt *>>*  Healing Shame

I will lay some of this out here.... (my notes)....

She says "Shame is like a full body heart emotion"...

Shame is "the intensely painful feeling or belief that we are flawed & somehow inadequate , and unworthy of connection."



> * Shame*:
> 
> *1.* We all Have it
> *2.* We don't talk about it
> ...


*Shame can not survive empathy.
*

Being Empathic is about connecting with your experience , even if you haven't experienced it .. you can relate by saying "I know Greif, I know rage, I know shame, I know fear".. I can connect to what it is you're feeling & express that back..
(26:47) 

She says we shouldn't feel ashamed.. but only guilty.... Shame is highly correlated with addiction, depression, eating disorders, violence, bullying and aggression.

Because SHAME corrodes the part of us that believes we can change. So to shame someone into changing is like saying to them " You are horrible & worthless and not capable of change -get better". 



> *Difference between Shame & Guilt...*
> 
> *1.* Shame is "I am bad " -focusing on self
> *2.* Guilt is "I DID something Bad"... focusing on behavior.


Brene is a BIG FAN of GUILT!

Guilt is ...When you hold something you've done or failed to do up against what you want to be , it doesn't feel good. 

But what we know is -when people make amends or change behaviors or apologize , authentically, Guilt is the motivator for that.. we rarely see shame. 

Interviewer asks : * What does Vulnerablity have to do with all of this ?*

Connection as the thing that gives purpose & meaning to life .. on the one end you have SHAME and on the other end you have EMPATHY...-what moves us between these is Vulnerablity. 

Vulnerability is about how do we sit with uncertainty ? How do we sit with fear? if you can figure out who you are when backed into vulnerability , it’s one of the greatest gifts you can give yourself & those who love you".

Self esteem came up.. not a strong correlation.. she explained.. *we THINK self esteem* , it's a cognitive function "who am I, what are my strengths, limitations = self concept).. but *we FEEL SHAME* ..

Shame is not a thinking emotion, it's a feeling emotion, no matter what your self esteem is - we are vulnerable to shame.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> That had much to do with my divorce and the church who chose to support my X, the cheater , and not me.
> 
> My career has also tainted me from it I admit.


There should not have been sides chosen. Sometimes people piss me off...

What career if you don't mind me asking?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> There should not have been sides chosen. Sometimes people piss me off...
> 
> What career if you don't mind me asking?


law enforcement


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think humility is a good antidote to shame.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

farsidejunky said:


> It is sad that your experiences in life had led you to believe that church is the last place your sons could or should receive support. I am sorry for that, brother.


 Something I have seen in life over & over .... and how can we chastise anyone -*given their personal experience*... @Wolf1974 was deeply betrayed by his fellow church members.. effectively they embraced a law breaker, against their own morals, while ignoring his pain...one thing is for sure.. people will let you down! 

I've seen similar things play out ...it's shocking to me .. Even with the person who has done wrong.. a decent Church will take them both aside.. listen to their story , follow up with the well being of both.. not taking sides... so wrong. 

We learn , for self preservation, to not "throw our pearls before swine"...sometimes swine is in the church , unfortunate to say.. but also is some darn good people.. it's like anywhere else.. 

Such experiences leave a very bitter taste in our mouths, to "never again".. it affects our perceptions...

I can't judge anyone for this.. one thing Brene Talks about....we need to be very very careful who we let in...most are not worthy to hear our story, our vulnerability...... she describes it like a Marble Jar.. in building trust...


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SimplyA..... 5 boys..... WOW! My stepson, before he got with the wrong crowd around the age of 19,

was a great kid. No trouble at all until.... he had his heart broken. I will never forget the look in his eyes,

he would always come to me when anything happened but.... a broken heart, he went to his mom.

I completely understood. 

The girl I mentioned previously... she's known around town for her bedpost skills but that's about it.

Twice D.... three kids. She "offers up" all she knows. Karma did come about 20 years after the guy's death

(2012)... she admitted to a few people that guy was the only one that ever truly loved her.

She will carry that cross to the day she dies. 

My 1st love broke my heart back in '90 (actually two separate times) but it prepared me for my

2nd love. We dated three solid years and off n on for two. She broke my heart the first time in '94,

I broke hers in '95 and '96. All of this prepared me for my Window Cork... my now XW.

WC cut deeper than any (15+ years) but the pain was brief.... my first signature quote sums it up.

But what leads you to a cliff today usually washed off the one's back years later.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> That had much to do with my divorce and the church who chose to support my X, the cheater , and not me.
> 
> My career has also tainted me from it I admit.


WTF? ....... Is this in your back story? If it isn't could you elaborate?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Wolf.... I share your view of organized religion. I grew up in a town that had a church and a bank on virtually every corner. My parents (mostly mom) wanted to go to this certain church back in the early 80's. This was when mom n pop were having a "very rough stretch." Pop went.... and he later said, he felt "something." What stopped him in his tracks was the people he saw there. The very same people who stole money, cheated on their spouse, exploited others, paid people off.... were the ones singing praises and who they wanted pop to fellowship with. This did not sit well with him. He never returned to church and died a bit over a decade later.

Pop warned me about "money churches" but never said which were which. He wanted me to find out for myself. I continued to attend the church as an early-mid teen. Cliques started and I too.... noticed certain people who went. They would always say -hi hows you doin- being I was spitting image of pop. But the same people who pop did business with.... and drank with... yes they would give you a ride home from baseball practice if you needed it but would... sell pop up the river for $500 and if mom or me had to go too.... so be it.

I went back to church after the surgery but I guess.... three years later. It was the same and being a bit older, I saw it all too fast. That was the last time I have stepped into a money church unless someone invited me and I told my true thoughts on it going in. Started going to a country church a bit later with 2nd love. Pastor asked me if I drank. I said I do sometimes (I was in college) and he told me what a sin it was... while smoking a cigarette after service. 2nd love and I had heated debates about hypocrites. 

It would be nice to be a part of a church family. I've never been part of one. I feel my best chance is a small country church... where money is not placed before God and family. Many of these small country churches though... are 90% two or three families and if you are an outsider... well, good luck. Even the ones who marry into it... are treated different. Not my game... and I don't mind saying it.

I went to a non-denominational church by invite from a friend of a friend after DDay. Strong words.... helpful comments.... and the preacher was an ex biker. He was the first person who talked "to me" and not "through me" in a church. I thought this might be something! I attended but what set me adrift was one of the deacons telling me about all the hatred they have for the LBGT community. Why have them come when they will burn etc.... To me that was not for him to decide, nor me, nor the pastor.

I would be happy to go a bit deeper if any one wants me to. Just don't want to T/J, even if it's really not a complete one.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Chuck71 said:


> SimplyA..... 5 boys..... WOW! My stepson, before he got with the wrong crowd around the age of 19,
> 
> was a great kid. No trouble at all until.... he had his heart broken. I will never forget the look in his eyes,
> 
> ...


 I think many downplay how strongly / emotionally a young man may feel in love.. yeah maybe it's stupid.. shouldn't have fallen... I don't know that anything we do could stop these feelings.. "hooked on a feeling.. high on believing".. and all that.. 

Our son broke down at the neighbors...talking to the Mom & 2 of their girls (dear friends)... they shared with me about that after the fact...he played that song When I Was Your Man  to them.. this was when he was determined to get her back.. the ANGER wasn't set in yet.. maybe "bargaining"...(all those stages of grief one must muddle through)... the younger girl, she's 12, never seen a guy cry like that, she felt so bad for him, she told me.. 

I guess it was good he could do that in front of them.. They do love him! 



> The girl I mentioned previously... she's known around town for her bedpost skills but that's about it.
> 
> Twice D.... three kids. She "offers up" all she knows. Karma did come about 20 years after the guy's death
> 
> ...


 This is so very very tragic.. I even feel bad for her.. Ya know.. this COULD have happened to me... I broke up with my husband, gave his ring back for a very short time , since he was the only guy I ever dated (met him at 15)..... my Grandmother, my dearest mentor, was always telling me to not marry the 1st guy who came along....to "play the field" (she didn't mean sex!)... 

I went out with another (I was very honest)...but quickly realized I missed my best friend... he was my forever.. it was something I felt I needed to explore ...find my "peace"...he probably should have told me to hit the road.. but he waited... 

Looking back.. I really didn't realize how MUCH this hurt him, he was emotionally devastated... so I have learned, opening this up ...the darkest time in his life..(though he didn't have suicidal thoughts..I asked).... had this happened to me ... I would have never EVER forgiven myself [email protected]#$ , it would have ruined my life.. 

He treated me like GOLD before I did that.. I was a stupid immature girl.. 

One thing I promised...I was waiting for the man who married me -to give my all.. I only kissed that other guy.. he did trust how strongly I felt on that.. We even had that guy come to our wedding.. he wasn't a threat in any way.. 

My husband doesn't like me bringing up that time in our lives....our story is very beautiful, 1st loves.. here we are 33 yrs later.. still going strong... but my actions back then took a Hit on him... that I wasn't fully grasping.. it may have even played into our early dynamics.. he feared if he pushed for sex.. I might leave. In this way.. I very much regret being so stupid & selfish. 



> My 1st love broke my heart back in '90 (actually two separate times) but it prepared me for my
> 
> 2nd love. We dated three solid years and off n on for two. She broke my heart the first time in '94,
> 
> ...


you've really been through it Chuck71 ...like that song ...


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