# DDay +2



## TryingToManup (Oct 26, 2012)

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this forum. I've been reading on hear for the past two days now, and it's been helpful thus far.

Here's my story so far.

First is the back story. Been married to my wife for almost 14 years now. We've had our share of ups and downs in our relationship. I've done my share of damage to it by lying about stupid things, for example... We both used to smoke, but when my wife got pregnant with our daughter she was able to quit cold turkey and never look back. I on the other hand had a lot of difficulty quitting. Instead of seeking help I made a horrible choice and lied about quitting while sneaking cigarettes. I was caught and lied about it to her face (another bad choice on my part). My bad choices continued as I did this same thing several more times. I know that each time I did it I caused severe damage to the trust that my wife had in me. However, I am now smoke free and have been so for almost 3 years now.

This is pretty much the extent of my wrongdoing. I can freely and honestly say that I have NEVER cheated on my wife as I take my marriage vows very seriously, and I love her to the utmost.

My wife on the other..... Approximately 2 years ago I caught my wife in an EA that was on the verge of becoming a PA. In all honesty it may have already become a PA but I never saw any real proof of that. I have done my best to forgive my wife for her infidelity. (Of note is that upon first discovering it and confronting her with it we ended up in a False R, and she went underground with it, but I discovered it again and confronted her and we moved on from there).

However, I am now, approximately 2 years later, faced with this situation again. I confronted my wife 2 days ago. Again she did the denial dance until I showed her evidence that she couldn't explain away. (Text with one of her girlfriends where she was discussing how she was seeing someone else behind my back).

At this point I was angry, emotional, shouting, basically doing everything wrong, but as any of you who have been through this yourselves know it is extremely difficult to maintain a level head after you've been hurt like this.

Anyway, I have been reading lots on here and I began to really listen and follow advice. I have done a lot of introspection and have come to the conclusion that I am a good person, an excellent father, and a loyal and devoted husband. I am worth more than the way I've been treated. That being said it is still very difficult for me to play the part of confident Alpha male as I am and have always been "Mr. Nice Guy".

However, even with my "Nice Guy" tendencies I did manage to realize that I don't have to live in Limbo anymore. So I confronted my wife about all of this again. This time I was able to maintain a calm and level head, and I expressed to her that I am not going to be treated this way and that I have had enough. I explained to her that I wanted out of the marriage. She began the verbal attacks and the yelling and all of that. meanwhile I remained calm and in control of myself, even though I was a mess internally. 

Later that evening she said that maybe we could work things out. Now, because I love my wife and I'm a softie it was very hard to prevent myself from grabbing her and holding her and telling her that everything would be all right, but I was able to maintain my control. I told her point blank that if that is really what she wanted then she would need to do everything in her power to rebuild the trust that she destroyed. I told her that she would have to have NC with the OM and that she would have to be completely transparent. I made it clear that it was her decision on whether or not she was willing to do that I could care less which route she chose.

Finally, before I was about to go to bed, she came to me crying up a storm, saying that she really does want to fix things. She sets her computer down on the coffee table and says that she is going NC with the OM and that she is giving me all her accounts and passwords and full access to her phone, etc.

Before I continue on, here's a side note. The day that I confronted my WW and told her that I am finished with this, I exposed the EA to my parents, siblings, her mother and sister, and the OMW. If I knew how/where to contact the OMs workplace, I would expose it to them as well. I'm sure that would make his life very uncomfortable if not extremely difficult as he is currently working as a government contractor with high level security clearance and from personal experience I can attest that jobs of that nature/level do not look kindly on any blemish upon your moral character.

Anyway, back to the main points. I am having a very difficult time with all of this at this point, once again due to how much I love my wife and my natural tendency to give in to her. It's almost textbook some of the things she is saying to me about the transparency that she is supposed to be giving me. Example: "I'm not saying I'm gonna change out my passwords and lock you out, but I don't have to feel good not having privacy." Also, I have not put any keylogger type programs/devices on her computer so I do not know if she has really given me ALL of her accounts. It is always possible that she has other secret accounts that she can use for communication. Additionally, she could always delete texts or FB msgs, emails before I've ever had a chance to log in and see them, so she could easily cover her tracks that way.

I do, however, have one very good source of information that right now is going to help in solving my dilema. On our cellphone bill website I am able to log into our account. From there I can see all of the calls she has made and received, including the dates/times/length of call/phone number called/etc. This is one of the reasons I was able to catch her. I can also see the number of text msgs that she has sent/received during the billing period, and all of these things update regularly. Basically, if I called her right now and spoke to her for a couple minutes and sent her a text right now, then within about 15 to 20 minutes, those things would show up on our cellphone account.

Now here's my current plan. I have already spoken with a lawyer to get my ducks in a row in case things look like they may go south. Last night, prior to going to bed, I verified the current status of her phone calls/texts. She had no calls that were of note and she had exactly 800 texts during this current billing cycle. This morning at work, at around 10:30am I checked it again. Just prior to that my wife and I had texted back and forth a total of 5 times. She sent me 3 texts and I sent her 2. Therefore, this will show up on in the online account as 5 text msgs to/from her phone. So she should have had a total of 805 when I looked at it. Her total was 856. Now this is not in itself damning evidence as these texts may all be innocent one between her and her mother or a friend. But here is where a little thinking comes in.

I will be leaving work in about 45 minutes to head for home. Before I leave I'm going to check the account one last time to get the current number. Upon arriving at home I am going to look at her phone to see how many text msgs she has on it that are between the time I looked on the account last night when there were only 800, and the time I look before I head home. For arguments sake lets say that the number stays at 856, and I know that 5 of them are between her and I. that leaves 51 text msgs unnaccounted for. When I look at her phone, if I don't find 51 text msgs still on her phone during the previously mentioned time frame, then I will know that she has been deleting text msgs so that I cannot see them. 

If that is the case my next move will be to play along like nothing is wrong, and on Monday morning I will then be contacting my lawyer to set things in motion. I do know somewhat how to read my wife and based on the things that I've seen thus far, she is still reeling some from the hit of exposure that occurred when I confronted her. From what my lawyer has said, if I said "lets go" on Monday, he and I will sit down and draft up an agreement for division of assets/custody/etc, that is favorable for both parties, but ensures that I don't get screwed in anyway shape or form. Once that is ready I will hit her with it, along with any further evidence of her lying that I am able to dig up, and she will most likely sign it right then and there.

If she doesn't then my lawyer says we can be ready to file right then, because the first to file typically has an advantage.

Now if she is truly repentant and wants a True R, then she won't have deleted any texts, etc. If she is deceiving me yet again, then it is better to move on with my life.

Please feel free to post any advice you may have or ask any questions about things as I am an open book and want to share my experience with others and continue myself to learn from the experience of those who have gone before me.

Thank you.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

Seems like you got a plan, stick to it. 

Much harder said than done, but STICK TO IT.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

Well, very....difficult to understand. 

Now, the text could be to her friends, family, etc. to explain some things possibly that she couldn't do over the phone. My wife would call me when I was out of the house (BH like you) and leave voice mails. Couldn't understand a word she said. 

But, I will tell you right now, I think your marriage is circling the drain. 

She has cheated twice now. 

I will tell you this:
Fool me once, shame on you. 
Fool me twice, shame on me. 
Fool me three time, why the #%& can't I leave you!?!

Now, you need to start verifying everything, and I think you did a good job. But I wonder if she has another fake email adress setup to talk with the OM. Because I am willing to bet she is. So get a key logger, and I would suggest figuring it all out. 

Next, expose the affair to the OM's wife, girlfriend, parents, work, anywhere! Ruin his life!!! Because I love karma. Until it decides to hurt me....

Now, why did you lie about your smoking? I wonder if she possibly felt resentful you couldn't tell her about it. Then again, gives her zero right to cheat on you. 

Now, pull a 180!
Means, you don't talk with her, you don't call her, you don't text her, she has to initiate all conversations/calls/texts, everything. It means ZERO affection. ZERO deep conversations. ZERO anything! You need to pull away from her. Because I think you are going to get hurt again. And if you think I am jaded because I am BH, well, I am reconciling. So I am a realist. 

And you better start making more demands. Like, where did she meet the OM? Her job? Time for a career change. 

But honestly, until you know what you want, we can only give you so much advice. 

But if she didn't delete the text, we can help you out. 

If she did, well, we got several people that can help you out. 

BTW, if you can afford it, I have a sneaky suspusion that she'll try to take you to the cleaners. So what you want to do, is meet with all the high powered divorce lawyers in the area, that way if she does try to, she can't get a shark lawyer that will take you down. She'll have to settle for a lesser one, while you got a good one. 

But hopefully it doesn't come to that.


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## ShootMePlz! (Oct 5, 2008)

Are you equating "I am seeing someone behind my husbands back" to just an EA?


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

What if her 51 messages were between her and a friend who she was talking to about relationship issues? Would she delete those? I know I would. I delete almost all of my messages except the ones I want to keep for whatever reason just because I dont like my phone all cluttered up. 

What Im saying is that its hard to know whether she is talking to someone she shouldnt be just by you checking the number of texts. I dont know what carrier you have but you can go to the carrier and ask for a list of the numbers that texts were sent to and where they came from. It takes a couple of weeks but if you are on the account you just fill out the paperwork and they will send it to you.

Might be something to think about rather then assume that she is texting OM.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

What if, because of exposure she's contacted the OM to 'sign-off'? Of if he's contacted her to see if the damage is irreparable? 

If so, that wouldn't account for 50+ texts. But then again, it could be questions/comments from the people you've exposed. Don't jump to conclusions too quickly. 

I have to hand it to you. You've taken good steps so far.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

There's any number of ways your wife can communicate with the OM using her smartphone. There's specific texting apps like Textnow, or game apps like words with friends that support chatting. I'm just saying to to feel any confidence just because you can verify the number of text messages. 

She could also have a cheap burner phone that you know nothing about.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

LetDownNTX said:


> What if her 51 messages were between her and a friend who she was talking to about relationship issues? Would she delete those? I know I would. I delete almost all of my messages except the ones I want to keep for whatever reason just because I dont like my phone all cluttered up.
> 
> What Im saying is that its hard to know whether she is talking to someone she shouldnt be just by you checking the number of texts. I dont know what carrier you have but you can go to the carrier and ask for a list of the numbers that texts were sent to and where they came from. It takes a couple of weeks but if you are on the account you just fill out the paperwork and they will send it to you.
> 
> Might be something to think about rather then assume that she is texting OM.


Except if his conditions are full transparency, then her right to delete texts would be null and void. She needs to show him everything so that he can eventually learn to trust her again.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

Kasler said:


> Seems like you got a plan, stick to it.
> 
> Much harder said than done, but STICK TO IT.


I agree....just keep moving foreward. 








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

I would definitely key log her

also don't forget about the possibility of her having a burner phone


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I think you have an utterly reasonable plan and I support you in sticking with it. 

Complete transparency means not only do I "let you" have my passwords and whatnot, but also that I do not hide things from you, and clearly she is still trying to hide something.... just not sure what. 

I think you are on the right track. Either she can innocently show and reveal to you what happened, or file. You are being 100% reasonable.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Toffer said:


> I would definitely key log her
> 
> also don't forget about the possibility of her having a burner phone


I'm going to play devil's advocate here and state my thoughts. I'm not experienced with dealing with infidelity, but I'm experienced in being married. In almost every case it seems like a spouse can detect infidelity in its early stages. IMHO, it seems clear that no cheating spouse can maintain a facade consistently, and there are always "tells" that can show infidelity taking place. Becoming a clandestine operative makes sense if you live in a state here documenting infidelity can aid your divorce case. However, in no-fault states, it seems like an extra step that has minimal upside based on the amount of time needed to gather enough evidence to satisfy your need to know. It seems like many people will run their stings and will actually give the spouse enough rope to cheat for 2 or 3 extra months that they cannot get back. It doesn't make sense to me.

My thoughts are that it makes more sense to continue watching her like a hawk and checking her electronic communication devices and accounts. However, when a spouse who is supposed to be in recovery with you starts to put up more red flags like changing passwords, unaccounted for time or basically not making the BS their #1 concern - It would instantly tell me that something is off, that the WS is not fully into R and that the BS simply needs to pull the trigger.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

get tested for STDs


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Bride of Frank said:


> I guess I'm an old fart but I can't imagine sending 50 plus texts in a day, not to any one person, and not even if you add up all my friends together. Not 50 plus emails, or 50 plus phone calls either.
> .


LOL guess I'm an old fart too!
We're having bad weather today and my son's been texting me "all day" so after reading your post I counted our texts (plus two automatic severe flooding texts) and totaled 10. !!!

So much for 'texting all day!


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Well done, but don't yield after you drop the hammer. Stick to the plan. You know what "seeing" means in the context of "I'm seeing another man" right?

Keep shedding your "Nice Guy" persona. You don't want it around when you get out of this relationship and you become available. Even though this one is probably not going to make it, read MMSL just to get the general idea. It will be invaluable, even in future casual relationships as well as you next, and hopefully successful, marriage.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

boogie110 said:


> Hmmm - sounds to me you should be on the considering divorce or divorcing thread. It's really amazing to me how quickly so many on this forum say divorce, attorney, etc. I just shake my head all the time. Yes, of course, STD testing is the right thing to do. Yes, of course, a quick meeting with an attorney is good. But to say, if she doesn't do this right now it's a go with my attorney is just beyond what coping with infidelity is about, in my opinion.
> 
> Why was counseling never considered? Have you done extensive counseling? So quick to do this divorce thing after being so happy one moment, etc. just shows that you really must never have been that happy to have a chance again anyway. So good luck with the divorce and the new posting on divorce thread - not the coping with infidelity thread.
> 
> So I know I sound harsh, but I am doing the work --- the coping with infidelity work - I am going to counseling, my WH is going to therapy, we are going to groups. Now, don't get me wrong - in a year I may be on the divorce thread, but until then, I am at least doing the work. I just don't see too much work going on with this thread... Good luck. You asked for advice, after all.


While there are some similarities of behavior of men and women involved in covering up illicit sexual affairs, i.e. burner phones, gaslighting, crotch shaving, etc, the path to recovery, which may or may not be reconciliation, is somewhat divergent for men and women. Anything less than a hardassed approach to an adulterous wife is usually seen by her as a sign of BH weakness at best or, at worse, tacit acceptance of wittol status.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You should visit doccool dot com and read about cheating wives and games they play upon discovery, because while I commend you for dealing with this directly, you are playing the game at a simple level, while your wife is experienced at hiding it and taking it underground.

And now, I don't believe it was only an EA. the message you cite shows it is clearly an ongoing PA


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You should visit doccool dot com and read about cheating wives and games they play upon discovery, because while I commend you for dealing with this directly, you are playing the game at a simple level, while your wife is experienced at hiding it and taking it underground.

And now, I don't believe it was only an EA. the message you cite shows it is clearly an ongoing PA


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Not sure if it's the same in USA, but in the UK a long text counts as several texts and on the bill it might show up as, say, 5 texts to one number when in fact it appears as one text to the sender/receiver.

This means that the one text to you may appear as 2 or more texts on a bill so simply totting up the number of texts can be very misleading.

You might already know this, but I didn't when I started checking on my WW. 

Of course, it all depends on how your bill is broken down and so on but I thought I'd mention it just in case.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

"(Text with one of her girlfriends where she was discussing how she was seeing someone else behind my back)."

That's so far into being unacceptable that I wouldn't even fool with the texts at this point. But you're in the right frame of mind, so, 'keep calm and carry on'. 

Note to Boogie: Someone can be in a divorce and still need support coping with the infidelity they were subjected to.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

TryingToManup said:


> When I look at her phone, if I don't find 51 text msgs still on her phone during the previously mentioned time frame, then I will know that she has been deleting text msgs so that I cannot see them. If that is the case my next move will be to play along like nothing is wrong, and on Monday morning I will then be contacting my lawyer to set things in motion.


To me, this is counterproductive. If you are trying to save the marriage, you have to understand it's hard for a cheater to just stop cold turkey. VERY hard. So it's possible he contacted her and she went back into a flurry. This CAN be stopped, but you'll have to be her warden for a few weeks, as she weans herself off of him.

I say it's counterproductive because you'll KNOW she texted 50 times and yet you say you won't say anything, just file. Why don't you instead TELL her that you KNOW she texted 50 times and then deleted them, and ask 'what gives?'

If you're filing anyway, who cares if she figures out how you know. But telling her point blank gives you more force with which to confront her.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> Now if she is truly repentant and wants a True R, then she won't have deleted any texts


Did you explained her clearly that boundarie about deleting texts? I can garantee you unless you explain exactly what means transparence to an already reluctant wayward she will get away with whatever gaslighting explanation she can came up at the moment.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Good plan overall.

If the texts are deleted, confront her on it immediately.

Girlfriends with whom she discusses her adulterous affairs must be cut out of both of your lives; in many respects, these girlfriends are worse for your marriage than the other man; they lend her support, tell her she's right for cheating, and help cover up for her.

Not a good sign that she is whining about a lack of privacy when she should be grateful you are giving her another chance. Any discussion of your relationship should be between her and you, not her girlfriends with whom she discussed her adulterous affairs.


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## TryingToManup (Oct 26, 2012)

I want to thank everyone for all of your advice and support. And I do mean ALL of it, even the stuff that is horribly difficult for me to hear.

I also want to post an update on my current situation and discuss a few things so that I can hopefully get some more insight from those that are here.

Just a short while ago I read through a thread originally started by DWM that was titled..."Am I a chump or a d1ckhead. I need help either way." I noticed a lot of parallels between his relationship with his WW and my relationship with mine. His wife complained of him being controlling. Based on the discussion on that thread it seems that she believed him to be so because he was responsible for maintaining the finances and she couldn't just go and buy whatever it was she wanted at any time.

Here's the parallel. I have been the sole bread winner in our family for almost my entire 14 year marriage, with the exception of a total of about 8 months, which was not all in one shot. Additionally, I was always the one resposible for maintaining our budget, which wasn't always easy. My wife has, and even admits to having, a shopping problem. Basically, my wife has spent us into a huge amount of debt and in the past I have become quite angry with her. For example: Several times in the past I have come home from work and my wife is sitting there with a mountain of stuff that we don't need. When she finally admits to how much she spent it would typically end up being upwards of $300.00 USD. Now this might not seem like much to some people, but when you only have $50.00 left in your account to pay for gas and groceries for the next 2 weeks because your wife went on a shopping bender it is pretty financially devestating. And she did this on a semi-regular basis, and as is probably predicatable, I would get upset about it and ask her things like what she was thinking, etc. I also want to make things clear here that I have never hit my wife, and by her own admission I have never even called her a bad name. She on the other had has done both to me.

Basically, it seems to me that, like DWM and his situation, my wife has painted me as a vicious controlling husband, because I would rather pay the mortgage than let her buy more clothes. (btw, she has a walk-in closet that is STUFFED).

One further thing that I want to bring up before I end this particular post. My wife is Bi-polar. She is currently on medication which seemed to be doing ok for her. At least it is the best combination of meds that we've found for her so far. She also suffers from PTSD because her father was an alcoholic/drug addict who abused her in every way that you can think of up until he left when she was 15. She has sporadically gone to therapy over the course of her life, but never anything really long term and she has never truly dealt with the issues from her childhood. This in itself may be part of the problem, but it is still not an excuse. It is also why, IMO, why she cannot seem to maintain relationships with friends. Myself and others have noticed that once the superficial part of an initial friendship with my wife starts to move into a deeper level of friendship, then my wife's friends pretty much dump her. All of this we believe to be because she puts on a front of happy-go-lucky-person. Once she begins to open up to you then she never has anything positive to say, ABOUT ANYTHING. We have also noticed that the way she interprets things is almost always negatively. For example: If you say something to her that you mean in a loving helpful way, but it contradicts her thoughts, then she takes it as an attack on her.

Anyway, I'm continuing to ramble, I guess I needed to vent a lot. I hope that some of this will give some more insight into my situation. Also, if there is any questions that you would like answers to in order to help you understand things, please ask them and I will do my best to answer them.

Thank you.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Since she has no close or lasting friendships, dropping the friend who supported and knew about the affair is totally acceptable. 

Even if the friend was inside arguing with her to dump the guy (and you didn't sound like it was anything like that), she choose a side and it wasn't you.

I don't care about bipolar. I don't care about your smoking. I don't care about who handles the finances.

Unless you are a horrible controlling ass, or was withholding sex and affection, if you beat her or were addicted to Schedule I drugs, she really had no reason to cheat.

tunera is correct. Going cold turkey is hard. If she deleted texts, and you havent' discussed it before tell her she is not allowed to touch the delete button on any of her communications. (You need a key logger. Don't share that information with her)

So A contact or two should be dealt with...severely. But dealt with.

I would wait a week or so and go to her work and demand she open her purse and her desk. I'd also search her car for a burner phone. Be nice about it, but she's broken the trust and if she can't expose anything, anytime, she's not trustworthy. 

This is not so much to discover a phone (though that's a nice bonus, as it is to send her a message. "I will go anywhere and check anything I want to and if you don't comply, don't let the door hit you on the way out."

If she feels she CAN'T cheat, she won't cheat. This is putting the fear of God into her.
)
Granted, if you find a burner phone, use it to call your lawyer (it will save the time to give her the number.


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## TryingToManup (Oct 26, 2012)

Thanks JCD. I feel the same way about the bipolar/smoking/finances/etc. I don't think any of it is an excuse for cheating. I mean here is a good example. My WW has been withholding sex from me for a very long time. It is not non-existant, but lets just say that I'm lucky if I get it once a month. This has been going on for a long time, probably 5 years or so. Which, therefore, wouldn't surprise me if there were more or longer affairs that have been occurring during all that time.

Anyway, the point is that she has been withholding sex from me for a long time. I have therefore, felt unwanted for a long time. I also travel about half of the year for work, both within the US and Internationally. Because of this I have had many opportunities to cheat on my WW and she would have been non the wiser. But GUESS WHAT. I CHOSE to remain faithful to my spouse. So IMO that means to me that if someone in my position could make the choice to honor their vows. There is NO excuse for ANYONE to break them. I mean, seriously. If the marriage is that bad for her then she should have said either...."I want to get help and work on this together."....or...."This is not going to work for me so I'll see ya later." The other options just aren't acceptable to me.

Also, to Boogie. I do see your point, and I am not completely against a R. I am more than willing to put forth the effort that is necessary to repair our marriage, but I am not going to do it unless she takes full responsibility for her actions and becomes an open book. I deserve that much after what she did. I do agree with you that it is probably heading for a divorce and that I should (eventually) be posting on there, but I also agree with the poster that said that even someone in my position who is most likely going to get a divorce does need help in coping with the infidelity that occurred. And believe me, I am an emotional wreck inside and do need support.

On another note. The WW and I have 3 counseling sessions set up this week so that we can "interview" different MCs to see which one would be right for us. I am hoping that we can R and that the MC will be of great help, however I still remain skeptical as to her motivations and her commitment to fixing things.


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## travellover (Aug 6, 2012)

PBear said:


> There's any number of ways your wife can communicate with the OM using her smartphone. There's specific texting apps like Textnow, or game apps like words with friends that support chatting. I'm just saying to to feel any confidence just because you can verify the number of text messages.
> 
> She could also have a cheap burner phone that you know nothing about.
> 
> ...


PBear is 100% right. I confronted my husband several months ago based on cell phone calls and texts. He took his EA/PA underground while telling me that it was harmless flirting. Yesterday morning I caught my husband creating a new email. This is a man who barely types. I got ahold of his phone this morning (almost never happens) and found the Talk app on his phone. I had never heard of this app, but it allows the person to have free texting, chats, etc. which do not show up on our cell phone bill. I also saw that he was looking at women seeking men on craigslist. I wish you well.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I want you to turn this around. It's not about who you are as a husband and what things she can drag out of the closet (I'm sure you could triple the amount of things you had on HER, if you wanted to). That never works. That puts you in separate camps and, given her mental state, that will NEVER ever work. 

It's not about that. It's about what you NEED in a marriage. Not what SHE needs. What you need. This has to be about you, ok? You need to present to her what you NEED and see if she's willing to be that provider. She NEEDS to see, as well, that you are willing to walk away if she isn't meeting you half way.

And she's free to do the same thing, show you what SHE needs - and then you meet in the middle and see if a compromise is possible. If it isn't, then you need to accept that and go your separate ways.

You only get one life. Lots of people marry and start families for all the wrong reasons nowadays and lots of people END those relationships out of necessity. 

Please don't use 'love' as a reason to stay in a harmful marriage. If you can BOTH get what you need out this, stay. If you can't, call it a day and move on to find - now that you're more mature and experienced and wise - someone who's a better fit. Don't waste the years you get on this planet in a doomed relationship.

Now, am I saying yours is doomed? Of course not. Only you can tell. But you need to approach this logically. Emotion doesn't pay your mortgage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

travellover said:


> PBear is 100% right. I confronted my husband several months ago based on cell phone calls and texts. He took his EA/PA underground while telling me that it was harmless flirting. Yesterday morning I caught my husband creating a new email. This is a man who barely types. I got ahold of his phone this morning (almost never happens) and found the Talk app on his phone. I had never heard of this app, but it allows the person to have free texting, chats, etc. which do not show up on our cell phone bill. I also saw that he was looking at women seeking men on craigslist. I wish you well.


 I hope you're kicking him out, to his friend's couch. Let him EARN his way back. By learning to respect you and treasure what he took for granted.


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## Link182 (May 25, 2012)

At work myself, but trying to squeak in my experience. Don't know you, don't know your wife, but your situation sounds very similar to my own and so I wanted to share.

Assume that pretty much everything she tells you is a lie. If you haven't already follow the advice about the digital voice recorder, and spyware for your wife's computer and phone. If she has a "smart phone" or Blackberry she can easily have a secret email address or use video chat from the phone to connect with her AP as mine did. On the cell bill you will only see data used, key on anything over 1000kb used and see if those match up with times you are away or asleep.

I too am a "softie" and my perception of who my wife was and what she was capable of doing even after D-day were way off. Cheaters will lie right to you and you will want with all your heart to believe that they are sincere, my experience is and most will tell you here that they are accomplished liars and minimalizers. You can threaten her all you want, but until you are prepared to lose your marriage and she believes it, assume she is lieing to you. The "Fog" is the most sickening, evil, dark thing I have ever seen. 

It's sounds as though you are on the right path, you are stronger than I was at the point you are at. Execute your plan and begin to see yourself as single, that is the only hope if you plan on R. I admit I skimmed your posts a bit, but I must be quick at work.

Listen to the advice you get here, even if it hurts and you say to yourself as I did..."no, not my wife...". Yes, your wife. I wish I could do something more than this to help with the pain you must feel. I remember, it is awful.


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## Link182 (May 25, 2012)

Also, don't believe for a second that she won't lie right to the face of a MC during sessions, mine did. Her excuse for wanting to stop going is that now she would have to face two people she had lied to, tough beans! Verify everything, because in the end you need to decide whether to stay or go, and since you are emotional, but still the only rational person in your marriage you have to have that information.

Rambling a bit now, but I hope that helps.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

TryingToManup said:


> she is going NC with the OM and that she is giving me all her accounts and passwords and full access to her phone, etc.
> 
> I exposed the EA to my parents, siblings, her mother and sister, and the OMW.
> 
> ...


Keylog the computer. Put a voice-activated recorder under the seat of her car with some heavy-duty velcro. Monitor for a few weeks to ensure no contact is and remains in place.

*Were the texts deleted? Or were they still on the phone?*

Is she still no contact with the other man?

Is she still whining about lack of privacy? Is she still letting you look at her phone and accounts?

What effect has the exposure had on your wife? Has it helped?

Is she still in contact with the toxic girlfriend?

Is she saying she's sorry and being nice to you or is she not apologizing and being distant?

What was the content of the messages between her and other man? Sexual - expressing sexual desire? Emotional - expressing love? Do you know for sure that they did or did not have sex? Does that matter to you?

What does your current sex life compare to how it's been throughout your marriage?

Based on your last post, it does not seem that your wife is showing you that she is all that sorry - at least you don't mention it.

Also would like to point out that like drugs and alcohol, many get a "high" off of the emotional infatuation of new relationships. The same is true of shopping - many report having an "elated" feeling when going on a shopping "binge."


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## TryingToManup (Oct 26, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> Keylog the computer. Put a voice-activated recorder under the seat of her car with some heavy-duty velcro. Monitor for a few weeks to ensure no contact is and remains in place.
> 
> *Were the texts deleted? Or were they still on the phone?*
> 
> ...


Ok, to answer your questions.

1. The texts were indeed deleted. (Big Red Flag)
2. She still "lets" me look at her phone and her accounts but she definitely whines about her lack of privacy.
3. At first the Exposure really ****ed her up. She was all over the place emotionally. She still is to some extent, but now she is being more authoritative and is attempting to take some of her control back. She has been very much trying to guilt me/insult me by her comments and body language into feeling horrible and into assuming some of the blame for her infidelity. I do have to admit that she is extremely good at this and I have been having a very difficult time not falling into the trap.
4. Toxic girlfriend is still in the picture too. Also, and this is a big one and its something that I am going to be confronting her on very soon. The OM is still her Friend on FB. If he is not removed from her account within the next 4 days I will have to end things with her as it clearly shows that she is not truly willing to R.
5. Sometimes she says that she's sorry, but other times she is still distant and plays games.
6. EA or PA doesn't matter as far as the fact that either is still betrayal, but yes is would (emotionally for me) make it worse if they actually had sex. Oh and BTW, I have discovered that they never had sex "in person" but they did have phone sex/sexting/pic-mail.
7. Sex is basically the same. Non-existent.

Hope that answered all of your questions.

P.S. In the 4th answer I mentioned that I would give it 4 days for her to remove the OM as a friend from FB. The reason is because we have 3 therapy sessions over then next 4 days and I want to confront/discuss this with her in the presence of a Marriage Therapist to see what he/she says about her still having him as a Friend on FB.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

TryingToManup said:


> Ok, to answer your questions.
> 
> 1. The texts were indeed deleted. (Big Red Flag)
> 2. She still "lets" me look at her phone and her accounts but she definitely whines about her lack of privacy.
> ...


your name is fitting! you are doing a poor job of manning up.

ask your self if a man would put up with a wife that treats him the way your wife treats you.

why would you want to be with this woman?

you think they only had phone sex......come on you know better. trust your gut do what you have to do. it won't be easy but real men pull up their boot srtaps when the going get tough they just get going. kick the crazy bi*ch to the curb and move on with the rest of your life holding your head high! will you make mistakes ....sure you will we all do but in the end you will be much better off with out her!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Trying, I'm having a hard time seeing in your posts anything you are doing to 'man up.' Perhaps you can point me to changes you have made?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Think of it this way instead. Make her do it RIGHT NOW and then she has three sessions with the counselor to whine at him and have him take YOUR side (he should. If he doesn't, find a new counselor)

Also during counseling, you need to address the toxic friend. Keep HER on the defensive. Why is she with someone who would approve of your cheating. Did she ever telll you to stop. Did she cover for you etc.

I personally would not want to touch her for some time.

And when your testicles do drop, you'll find yourself marching away from this woman. But until they do, enjoy the drama.

What about money etc? Cut her off.


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## TryingToManup (Oct 26, 2012)

All of you are correct on this and I fully accept that I am indeed STILL not manning up. I am going to take the advice. When I get home from work today I am going to confront her with the whole --still friends with him on FB-- thing. I am going to tell her that since we have the counselling sessions scheduled this week that I will go to them, but I expect her to remove him from her account and to be able to discuss everything about this at all of our therapy sessions.

I am also going to stop on my way home and get a key logger. I will then tell her that it is going to be installed on her computer and that all the "deleting" of msgs needs to be stopped.

I am also going to be speaking to my lawyer again tomorrow to have him start paperwork so that everything is ready to be filed in the event that my STBxW decides that she's not going to fully invest herself in repairing the damage she's caused.

If I don't see all of these things in place as expected, then by the end of the week I will tell my lawyer to file as soon as everything is in order.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

TryingToManup said:


> All of you are correct on this and I fully accept that I am indeed STILL not manning up. I am going to take the advice. When I get home from work today I am going to confront her with the whole --still friends with him on FB-- thing. I am going to tell her that since we have the counselling sessions scheduled this week that I will go to them, but I expect her to remove him from her account and to be able to discuss everything about this at all of our therapy sessions.
> 
> I am also going to stop on my way home and get a key logger. I will then tell her that it is going to be installed on her computer and that all the "deleting" of msgs needs to be stopped.
> 
> ...


If the 3 therapy sessions are prepaid I guess go but what's the point if it's a false r?


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## TryingToManup (Oct 26, 2012)

All of the Therapy Sessions are actually free. I get up to 6 free sessions through my insurance so it's no financial loss.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

She has been denying you sex and chasing after others, soooo disrespectful and cold.
It seems she really does not desire you.
Will you be content with a no sex marriage again?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TryingToManup (Oct 26, 2012)

To Decorum....

NO I WILL NOT.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

TryingToManup said:


> To Decorum....
> 
> NO I WILL NOT.


You put up with it before. And she thinks that is 'normal'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Woman cannot pretend about desire very long (a couple years max usually). She may be an enthusiastic partner when she thinks her "crib" is on the line, how will you know if it will last past that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

TryingToManup said:


> To Decorum....
> 
> NO I WILL NOT.


 Make sure this is topic #1 at your therapy sessions. Do NOT let this get swept under the rug.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

TryingToManup said:


> I am also going to stop on my way home and get a key logger. I will then tell her that it is going to be installed on her computer and that all the "deleting" of msgs needs to be stopped.


Hmmm, I've never seen this advised, but you know your marriage best. Typically, we advise that you install it WITHOUT you telling her, so that you can SEE if she is deleting. If you tell her up front, before she is really remorseful and ready to prove herself to you, all you do is teach her to go underground.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

TryingToManup said:


> Ok, to answer your questions.
> 
> 1. The texts were indeed deleted. (Big Red Flag)
> 2. She still "lets" me look at her phone and her accounts but she definitely whines about her lack of privacy.
> ...


The quality of counselors varies quite a bit, and quite a few posters on this forum have had counselors who were totally sympathetic to the cheater and "blamed" the betrayed spouse for not meeting the cheater's needs. So I don't have a lot of confidence that counseling will help. 

Even some of the cheaters who post here will tell you that they had to straighten out the counselor and tell the counselor that it was they, the cheaters, who were at fault, and to ask the counselor to stop laying blame on the betrayed spouse. What I'm saying is that if your cheater is not willing to accept blame going in to counseling, it's not likely the counselor is going to put blame on her for the affair. More likely is that the counselor will try to blame you both equally for her affair, using the logic that she wouldn't cheat if you were meeting her needs.

Most drastic changes in the cheater's attitude behavior come when finally faced with the hard consequences of cheating - losing their marriage - or when they realize the affair partner is not a viable option.

You yourself have stated how much you always have given in to her in the past. Believe me, she is very, very well aware that you always have done whatever she wanted you to. It is ingrained in her thinking that it is in your nature to cave into her manipulations and let her have her way. 

She likely has lost a lot of respect for you if you have let her get off easy with very unreasonable behavior in the past. When she acts very unreasonably, she knows darn well how unreasonable she is being, but she keeps up a front to make you think that she thinks that she actually believes she is in the right, even when she knows without a doubt that she is in the wrong. 

When you give in to her unreasonable demands, she loses respect for you and considers you a doormat. If you have good qualities, she knows about those, too, but trust me that she does not like it at all when you are such a pushover.

*What did you do when you found the texts were deleted?* Did you confront her about it? If so, what did she say? If not, why not?

I posted this in another thread, but I think a lot of it also applies to you.

Force the issue with your wife. Tell her you're done waiting for her to quit contact with the other man. You're her husband; she took vows with you; if she doesn't want you, if she wants to continue to rub it in your face by remaining friends with the other man with whom she exchanged sexual message, pack up her stuff, load up the car, and offer to drop her off at the other man's house. Tell her you love her and want to improve yourself and want to improve your marriage, but there's no way you're going to be anyone's backup plan. Either she commits to you and the marriage or she can get the heck out and go live with the other man. Wish her all the happiness in the world. Then call the other man and tell him you've got his soulmate all packed up and ready to go, you'll be over in a few to drop her off with all her baggage.

If your wife does choose to commit to the marriage, she agrees to give up all contact with the other man now and forever, handwrite a no contact letter to the other man, and give you complete transparency of all her communication devices and accounts, and never delete any messages again. The "no contact" letter should state how horribly ashamed she is of her behavior and how terrible she feels for risking losing you, who she loves more than anything in the world, and that if other man ever attempts to contact her in any way, shape, or form, she will file harassment charges against him. The letter should not contain any terms of endearment, it begins with "to" and ends with "signed" and has only the info above, no "sorry it didn't work out" or anything of the like. If she can't agree to this, proceed as stated above and file for divorce.

Give her any other conditions you want. If you want a sexual relationship with your wife, make it a condition of your reconciliation. This is NOT an unreasonable condition for a marriage.

If you want her to have no contact with the friend who is toxic and encourages your wife to have affairs, then make that a condition as well. This is NOT an unreasonable condition either - that she cease contact with a person who is working against the marriage. Let your wife know that in your eyes either your wife is for the marriage or against it. If your wife is for it, then she will not associate with a person who is against it. Can you imagine a parent who would associate with someone who was telling them to disown their child? Well, it's the same thing with a friend who is telling your wife to cheat on her husband. If she loved you, she would not stand for it.

Divorce is a long process. You can always stop it if your wife comes to her senses. If not, you save yourself months and months of pain and unhappiness, which ends in a bad result anyway.

If your wife does not want to meet your conditions and work on the marriage, start moving on with your life. Stop engaging with her as your wife, and start engaging with her as your soon-to-be-ex-wife. Be pleasant, but not romantic. Talk to her only as needed to discuss the divorce settlement, finances, and issues related to the kids. If you are financing her affair in any way, stop. Provide housing, clothing, food - but you don't have to pay for any means she uses to cheat on you.

If you want to save your marriage, you have to be willing to lose it. You cannot "nice" your wife out of her affair.

If she tries to accuse you of being controlling, tell her that you cannot and have not controlled her, you only can control yourself and what you are willing to accept in a marriage and what you are not, and you definitely are not willing to accept her remaining in contact or remaining friends with the other man. Tell her she must block him on facebook and remove him from her contacts.

If she keeps whining about "privacy," tell her privacy is for the bathroom, everything else is secrecy. If she is not cheating on you, then why would she care if you have her passwords or look at her messages. What could possibly be there that a spouse shouldn't be able to see? 

If you've been a pushover for a long time, your wife might need to be brought right to the brink before she decides you really are standing your ground this time. Then again, she might not care about getting divorced. She might only want the marriage if you are willing to pay for all her stuff and let her have her way. It's your choice if you want a marriage like that.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

turnera said:


> Hmmm, I've never seen this advised, but you know your marriage best. Typically, we advise that you install it WITHOUT you telling her, so that you can SEE if she is deleting. If you tell her up front, before she is really remorseful and ready to prove herself to you, all you do is teach her to go underground.


I agree with this. Don't tell her you are keylogging, it defeats the purpose and she will just not use this method to communicate.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

> If she tries to accuse you of being controlling, tell her that you cannot and have not controlled her, you only can control yourself and what you are willing to accept in a marriage and what you are not, and you definitely are not willing to accept her remaining in contact or remaining friends with the other man. Tell her she must block him on facebook and remove him from her contacts.


"If I could control you, you'd be having sex with me and never have cheated on this man in the first place. So you can stow that excuse."


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## flyfishdoc (Oct 21, 2012)

I am at D Day plus 7....go nuclear as it is the only option
Told all her friends/family/priest/adult children
Yes, I know you are on an emotional roller coaster but WTF would you still want her? YOLO
Now is the time to inflict your will on your adversary
The battle is won by he who gets there first with the most


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## flyfishdoc (Oct 21, 2012)

oh, i almost forgot...if you are trying to man up listen to Eminem's '25 to Life". it will keep you in the right frame of mind


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I say f all that and just respect yourself enough to move on away from the wretched woman!

don't tell her anything just file the papers. and get divorced .....and I will bet when you do she dose a complete turn around. then you can still decide to go your merry way!


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## FryFish (Sep 18, 2012)

Dont tell her about the keylogger...


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

FryFish said:


> Dont tell her about the keylogger...


She'll say "whew! Thanks for the warning." as she wonders how much a burner phone costs.


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