# Younger people and marriage



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

This topic is being discussed elsewhere, but I thought I'd start a thread here in the Lounge, too...because the other thread is attempting to focus only on why men are not getting married as young, instead of just focused on why PEOPLE are not getting married as young.

I have two adult kids. One got married young, the other is 28 and never married. I wish the one who got married young would not have.

In fact, all of my friends who have kids between 18 - 25 shudder and lament if their kids announce to them that they are getting married. We all pull in and say to each other "ugh, what a pity they can't wait a bit longer so they know themselves better".

I was married the first time at age 20.

I know it was a mistake (for me) to get married that young.

My kid who is not married is male. Not only has he never once mentioned the urge to get married (he talks about it like it is something he "might do one day" and implies it would be 10 years from now or so)....he also has never had any girlfriend suggest or imply she would like to get married. They are young and having fun and sometimes are committed and monogamous, but the young women he has relationships with are in no hurry to get married, obviously.

I know many other young people besides my two kids, and I'm seeing similar with them.

What I do NOT see is young women lamenting that there's no one left to marry. This is make believe drama people have invented.

So I just don't see what the big deal is, and in fact, I see it as progressive thinking to not get married young.

Ikaika posted a great link in the other thread, which I will dig up and post here for those interested in some stats (that were not derived from bogus nonsense).

Thoughts by anyone else?


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

Nearly all of my friends have gotten married young. It's CRAZY. Most are having babies now too.

In my circle, the couple of girls left unmarried that are in their early - mid twenties are lamenting that they are going to be old maids. Pssh.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think you are of a certain religion that encourages young marriages, right CW? Are these friends also part of that religion? Am just curious if the religious ideals are part of the decision to marry so young for you and your friends.


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## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think you are of a certain religion that encourages young marriages, right CW? Are these friends also part of that religion? Am just curious if the religious ideals are part of the decision to marry so young for you and your friends.


No. Christians. Which had nothing to do with the early marriages. 

Just crazy circle of friends I guess. One or two got married, and then suddenly everyone did. I've went to 5 weddings this summer!

That said I do have some friends in their 30s which have never been on dates before as well. Other end of the spectrum.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I wonder if it is a matter of people who are friends tend to have the same values and attitudes, so it would make sense that they do similar things.

Do you regret getting married so young, CW?


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I agree FW.

For every young man that does't want to marry there is a young woman that doesn't want too as well. The whole bachelor nation is not credible as it implies that it is just men opting out of marriage earlier. I posted stats in one of the other threads to show the number of marriages has not changed dramatically at all in Aus, it is the delayed ages that is changing but the overall number of marriages has only dropped by 3.5%. at the same time the % of LTA, Living Together Apart relationships has more than made up for the decrease in traditional marriages.

It is a beat up by men that are struggling with the fact that many young women are seeking more out of life than the old traditional SAHW lifestyle. It is these very men that want a SAHW who then get all twisted if it ends and they have to divide marital assets claiming the money/assets all belong to the wage earner.

Ele has posted numerous times that alimony is relevant in 15% of cases in America and decreasing (we do not have alimony in Aus) yet if you listen the some of the posters here you would think that all men in America pay alimony and are sent to hell after divorce. There is a theme seen here that only paid work is of value and those that do unpaid work should not get any assets built up during a marriage.

I have children of both genders, I hope all 3 of mine wait till they are older before marriage (if at all) but I will support whatever decisions they make. Everyone going into a marriage should do so with their eyes wide open but if it does end then I hope I have raised them well enough to not become the bitter types you see here.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

My 28 year old daughter got married last year. My 25 year old daughter just dumped her LD/video game playing live in BF.

My 28 year old's circle of friends have all caught the marriage bug and by this fall they will all be married.

My 25 year old daughter has one friend who got married two years ago, and divorced this year. The friend is bat sh!t crazy with men and their circle of friends think her H is much better off. They have another friend in their circle who is also BSC and absolutely stunning looking. So far, she hasn't been able to keep a BF for more than a year. This tells me young men are not being blinded by a pretty face and are looking deeper. That is a VERY good thing IMO!

I got married young and neither my husband nor I would recommend it to our kids and so far 2 out of 3 are listening. The 3rd doesn't really count since she's still in HS.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

It's hugely dependent on where you are. 

FW and I live in the same metropolitan area, but ~30 miles apart. My neighborhood is rural. My daughter is 22. A very large chunk of her high school graduating class is now married, several with children. These are the ones who did not go to college, whose intent was to become housewives and mothers. These were the more traditional conservative and religious types, or like my next door neighbor's daughter, the ones who had no other realistic future (sorry, but that's a cold hard fact for some). 

The other group went on to college and are pursuing careers and higher learning. This bunch is not married, and is not looking to get married any time soon.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

FW I am guessing this is going to be a boring thread. Not many people are going to disagree with you. Now people CAN choose not to marry young. So they do. Or don't.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cletus said:


> It's hugely dependent on where you are.
> 
> FW and I live in the same metropolitan area, but ~30 miles apart. My neighborhood is rural. My daughter is 22. A very large chunk of her high school graduating class is now married, several with children. These are the ones who did not go to college, whose intent was to become housewives and mothers. These were the more traditional conservative and religious types, or like my next door neighbor's daughter, the ones who had no other realistic future (sorry, but that's a cold hard fact for some).
> 
> The other group went on to college and are pursuing careers and higher learning. This bunch is not married, and is not looking to get married any time soon.


Interesting, because my daughter is the one who married young, and she is also the one who went to college (and she now owns her own business).

But like you said, there's quite a difference in demographic in the 30 miles between us.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> There is a theme seen here that only paid work is of value and those that do unpaid work should not get any assets built up during a marriage.


Holland...actually you've said this now in 2 threads and its completely false.

The argument about asset equity gains being split in marriage dissolution isn't at issue and never has been. In almost every state, both the marital home (which is usually split in its entirety, state dependent) and equity gains in assets are split in half. Both partners are eligible for that split and it is perfectly fair and reasonable.

What's at issue is ALIMONY. Alimony is a payment made after divorce by the higher earning spouse to the lower earning spouse...often spouses who didn't bother to work during the marriage. This is not income earned during the marital contract...its money earned AFTER the contract is dissolved.

And unless there's some severe extenuating circumstances (ie, illness)...no divorced person should be a slave to a no or low-earning ex-spouse after they're divorced.

If you are married and you are a dependent on your spouse that dependency should only last during the marriage contract and you assume the risk of that arrangement....not the working spouse. Choices come with risk.

Its just like if I made a highly risky investment and a year later, that investment goes bad...I can't whine and get my money back. 

If you make a risky choice in marriage by being a financial dependent and not getting educated, keeping your skills fresh and/or working and your marriage goes belly-up, then you need to own the consequences of that choice. 

15% alimony awards is wayyyy too high...and the other obfuscation in your post is the child support tables which are often based on a non-working spouse that earns $0. That's bull...income should be imputed to non-working spouses after divorce at least at minimum wage because BOTH spouses have an obligation to support their children....not just the higher earner.

If you're going to make an argument...at least have an honest premise. I have yet to see one post suggesting that assets gained in a marriage should not be equally split...that's complete nonsense.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> FW I am guessing this is going to be a boring thread. Not many people are going to disagree with you. Now people CAN choose not to marry young. So they do. Or don't.


Quite possibly it will be a boring thread. 

That's ok too, because people who don't want to bother getting on the other thread might drop by....and it will be nice to hear from them.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> If you're going to make an argument...at least have an honest premise. I have yet to see one post suggesting that assets gained in a marriage should not be equally split...that's complete nonsense.


She's talking about the men (and some women) who frequently post random, unsubstantiated claims about how "women always take men to the cleaners in divorce". 

As you said, I agree that the division of assets is usually fair.

It is a lot of men who keep claiming otherwise and their story seems to always be about how they, and only they, will be the ones who are worse off after a divorce. When the reality is, both spouses are usually worse off by a bit or a lot, depending, at least at first.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

FW,
It's strange to be on the same side of an issue as you. I also see it as a general trend rather than a specific gender problem. On the other thread I talked about my son. Perhaps I'll bring up my daughters here.

I think that when we say people are waiting untill they are older to get married or that they are avoiding marriage that we are ignoring the facts. Committed cohabitational relationship with children doesn't count as marriage to the statistician, but it is in effect the same relationship as marriage. In fact when I look around my community the divorce rate is pretty similar as well. These younger people are not exploring themselves or establishing their carrers. They are not determining sexual compatibility or any of the other reasons for putting off marriage. They are married without the paper. At about the same age as their parents got married. 

Well there is a start on my thoughts.
MN


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> And unless there's some severe extenuating circumstances (ie, illness)...no divorced person should be a slave to a no or low-earning ex-spouse after they're divorced.


I gotta disagree. 

When WE decided that my wife would be a SAHM for the sake of our children, we guaranteed that she would incur a 15 year hole in her resume that other workers would not have. As a teacher, she was smart, and kept her teaching certificate current so that she was able to eventually return.

But not without some difficulty. Employers prefer employees who can display a record of "what have you done for me lately". A decade and a half out of the workforce paints you with a big brush of automatic suspicion as to your ability.

That spouse may need a hand up to find a job, take classes, burnish credentials, and become fully employable once again. This is a cost that rightly falls on the spouse who remained fully employed - otherwise, you have institutionalized a wage and employability tax on each and every SAHM.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> FW,
> They are married without the paper. At about the same age as their parents got married.
> 
> Well there is a start on my thoughts.
> MN


Both my son and daughter are in long term unmarried cohabitation relationships as well. My son has had a total of 2 girlfriends in his 23 years, and my daughter 4 or 5 boyfriends, and only the latest is sexual. 

They are de facto living the same life I was living as a married man at their age.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It's awesome that young people aren't shamed for living together before marriage anymore. (Except in certain religious circles).


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I discussed this topic with my mid-30 something, never married son this evening. He told me that it's his experience that young women tend to be as career focused as their male counterparts, and in no hurry whatsoever to settle down and get married. Many of his never married friends have also noticed this trend, so it would appear that choosing to marry later in life is not gender specific.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

I grew up in a mostly rural area, and I would say the majority of my classmates and friends waited to get married. Some did, of course, marry right out of high school. But most did not. Most of us went on to college, even those of us who are more traditional, conservstive, religious types. I was 24 when my husband and I married. He was 19. I had already graduated from college, but he was in his last month of high school. He did end up going to school after we married, though, even after our first child was born.

Two of my closest friends were 23 and 25 when they married. This was after she finished college, and maybe him, too. I can't remember if he was finished or not because I know he became a pastor, but unsure when he graduated.

I don't know. I think many were waiting to marry even in my generation (I will be 40 next month), but it does seem many more are waiting, or not even bothering with getting married, now. FWIW, I will be sure to tell my kids the pros and cons of marrying young. I can't say older people are more mature because there are PLENTY my age who are less mature than my husband was at 19. Looking at my own children... if they were older, and allowing for personal growth, of course... my oldest I would not even question if he married young. My daughter, maybe. But my youngest boy... smh. I would worry. Anyway, I don't think much about the age, once they are adults. It is their maturity level. If they are as mature as my husband was at 19, I wouldn't question them. But if they are like my 32 year old sister, I would question, and certainly advise against it... even at 30.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Bugged said:


> It's also true that apparently in Europe half of the people between 18 and 30 still live with their parents so...


I heard recently that this isn't a problem of young people being too lazy or video game addicted to support themselves, either. It is accepted and even encouraged. It is a way the parents continue to help the child and usually, the child is also helping the parents.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> *Holland...actually you've said this now in 2 threads and its completely false.*
> 
> The argument about asset equity gains being split in marriage dissolution isn't at issue and never has been. In almost every state, both the marital home (which is usually split in its entirety, state dependent) and equity gains in assets are split in half. Both partners are eligible for that split and it is perfectly fair and reasonable.
> 
> ...


There have been many posts over the years here where men have stated that they won't get divorced or are twisted about their divorce because of having to give away half their marital assets, that there have been many mentions of this, if you have not read them then fine but this attitude has been stated often on TAM.

Alimony as a subject is of no relevance to me, I live in a different world but was merely stating that as a person that has no former experience with alimony, reading here would make you think that men in America ALL paid it for the rest of their lives. It was interesting to read Eles recent posts about the real picture with alimony and shared care.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> But not without some difficulty. Employers prefer employees who can display a record of "what have you done for me lately". A decade and a half out of the workforce paints you with a big brush of automatic suspicion as to your ability.


Exactly and that's the risk you take. Adult decisions have a adult consequences. And SAHP parents need to realize that the decision to stay home comes with a high degree of uncertainty for them and their children....its literally dangerous. Its no coincidence that divorced SAHP and their children are one of the biggest poverty stricken groups in the country...and its going to get worse with the new laws.



> That spouse may need a hand up to find a job, take classes, burnish credentials, and become fully employable once again. This is a cost that rightly falls on the spouse who remained fully employed - otherwise, you have institutionalized a wage and employability tax on each and every SAHM.


Totally disagree. The burden of the working spouse only lasts during the contractual obligation. 

By your argument, the SAHP should have to continue to come over to the working spouse's house after divorce to clean the ex-spouse's house and cook their meals because they now have the burden of those tasks and haven't done it in a while. It doesn't work that way.

And by the way, I'm not the only one who sees it this way...the court is coming around to it too. Alimony laws are changing because the courts are starting to expect adults to be self-sufficient. It cannot happen soon enough. Its shameful and encourages an entitlement mentality where irresponsible adults think its ok to sponge from working people.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> There have been many posts over the years here where men have stated that they won't get divorced or are twisted about their divorce because of having to give away half their marital assets, that there have been many mentions of this, if you have not read them then fine but this attitude has been stated often on TAM.


The formulas for dividing equity gains in marital assets is very cut and dry. The complaints that I've seen are about alimony and child support tables and are very justified. 

There are a lot of payers who've worked their whole lives and had the bad judgment to support a non-working spouse not realizing that after the marriage got dissolved, they were going to be living on barely enough money to put a roof over their heads due to the income disparity.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> *The formulas for dividing equity gains in marital assets is very cut and dry.* The complaints that I've seen are about alimony and child support tables and are very justified.
> 
> There are a lot of payers who've worked their whole lives and had the bad judgment to support a non-working spouse not realizing that after the marriage got dissolved, they were going to be living on barely enough money to put a roof over their heads due to the income disparity.


Yes they are and on a whole (in Aus) I totally agree with the standard formula used, it is generally equitable. But that is not what you accused me of.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> But that is not what you accused me of.


I don't remember accusing you of anything. What I said was that the complaint is about alimony and high child support tables that working payers are forced to pay to non-working payees....not about equity splits. Those complaints are very valid.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> I don't remember accusing you of anything. What I said was that the complaint is about alimony and high child support tables that working payers are forced to pay to non-working payees....not about equity splits. Those complaints are very valid.


Child support can be paid to working custodial parents too, not just SAH parents. The amount is determined by the income and expense of both parents and the needs of the children. If the father earns less or has more time with the children or both, the mother pays the child support. I don't see how that is unfair.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I met my wife at 20 and married her at 24. No regrets.

My friends all took more time. My youngest has a good probability of marrying his current gf. They are both 20 and I give them maybe 5 years or less before they make it official.

They are considering moving in together.

I love them both and if they ask, I will tell them some pros and cons of moving in together.

They are pretty confident and both have very good concepts of what they want in a relationship.

My oldest son is 27 and definitely not ready for a steady relationship much less marriage. He knows it though and is content where he is at until he is more prepared for marriage.

He definitely wants to be married with children but just isn't ready yet.

I love both my sons and think they are both right about their own situation.

As to a general trend? I can't say I really care.

Unless someone is claiming Christianity, then I will talk theology with them until they run away! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> I don't remember accusing you of anything. What I said was that the complaint is about alimony and high child support tables that working payers are forced to pay to non-working payees....not about equity splits. Those complaints are very valid.





> Quote:
> There is a theme seen here that only paid work is of value and those that do unpaid work should not get any assets built up during a marriage.
> _*Holland...actually you've said this now in 2 threads and its completely false.*_


You accused me of making false claims. Refer to my statement that *There is a theme seen here that only paid work is of value and those that do unpaid work should not get any assets built up during a marriage.* I stand by it and have seen many posts here by men that having to divide marital assets is wrong, some even stay in bad marriages because they don't want to lose what they see as theirs and theirs alone because they were the ones in paid work. 

Just because you have never read posts by members that state they think marital assets are theirs because they were the ones in paid work, does not mean that it has not been said numerous times.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Child support can be paid to working custodial parents too, not just SAH parents. The amount is determined by the income and expense of both parents and the needs of the children. If the father earns less or has more time with the children or both, the mother pays the child support. I don't see how that is unfair.


Its not...reasonable child support with income disparity is fair if it benefits the child.

As I said...child support tables should never be calculated based on an income of $0 for a previous SAHP...an income should be imputed at least at minimum wage for an uneducated person or commiserate to their educational level for others.

The fact of the matter is that things change after divorce. 

Two working spouses move from living on two incomes to one. Previously SAHP now have a responsibility to support themselves and their children and both have a responsibility to clean, cook, and manage separate residences.

SAHPs aren't special and don't deserve special treatment because they made an adult decision to take a HUGE risk to themselves and their children to not be self-sufficient. Working people don't get special treatment either. Working people that lived on two salaries now live on one and manage their own homes.

The day a SAHP is ordered to go over and clean the house of an ex-spouse after divorce is the day I'll agree with alimony laws. 

Considering that most alimony is awarded to women, I consider it highly insulting and embarrassing to my gender. It basically insinuates that grown women get special treatment for making irresponsible choices for both themselves and their children...and don't have to own the consequences for those decisions.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Its not...reasonable child support with income disparity is fair if it benefits the child.
> 
> As I said...child support tables should never be calculated based on an income of $0 for a previous SAHP...an income should be imputed at least at minimum wage for an uneducated person or commiserate to their educational level for others.
> 
> ...


Not going to comment on the alimony part but I totally disagree that making the choice to be a SAHP is an irresponsible choice. It is often both partners that want a parent at home to raise the children.

Do you have kids? Do you have any concept of how much is involved in raising them? I have 3 teens and they take even more looking after in different ways now. I do approx 2 plus hours of driving a day just for school and after school classes. Especially in the last 2 years of Secondary mine want their parents around for support, help, food and more food. We are a two household family and their dad now works more from home so he can also accommodate the kids needs better. When he is away for work or my work schedule is for early starts we swap our time with them so they can have as much support as they need.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Not going to comment on the alimony part but I totally disagree that making the choice to be a SAHP is an irresponsible choice. It is often both partners that want a parent at home to raise the children.


Not all SAHPs are irresponsible...one of my best friends is a single SAHP right now. She saved money for the 4 years she's planning to stay home, she has a phD...she's able to work if she absolutely has to. 

I stayed home for a year with my 1st child...I did the same thing. As a mother, it is/was my duty to ensure that I could take care of my child if something happened to my then husband.

Being a SAHP isn't necessarily an irresponsible choice...being a SAHP that ends up in the middle of divorce that can't even feed their kids without handouts from the stbx is. There's one of these on this forum around once a day. 



> Do you have kids? Do you have any concept of how much is involved in raising them? I have 3 teens and they take even more looking after in different ways now.


I have two daughters. One adult and one in her teens and I worked full-time and work travelled raising them....didn't have a maid either.

I never said kids weren't work but if you make the decision to have them than you sign up for the task. In addition, you should sign up for their care in the event of ANY eventuality including divorce.

I get really irritated when I see SAHPs in the middle of a divorce who can't manage basic finances because they're completely dependent on an ex-spouse who doesn't give a rat's butt about them or their kids...and its usually women in this position. And society coddles this type of behavior instead of pointing out the obvious...bad choices and zero planning has disastrous consequences.

By the way, my mom had 5 kids and worked full-time until she was in her 60's.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> SAHPs aren't special and don't deserve special treatment because they made an adult decision to take a HUGE risk to themselves and their children to not be self-sufficient. Working people don't get special treatment either.


Some of us think that raising children is a HUGE responsibility that warrants that risk. 

I might just as easily say that the working spouse assumes a large risk that he will have to pay alimony should he divorce. Nothing wrong with spreading the risk around a little bit, especially when the working spouse knows that he is in the far superior position come divorce proceedings.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Some of us think that raising children is a HUGE responsibility that warrants that risk.


And there's nothing wrong with taking risks in life as long as you *own* the consequences. That's simply adulthood.




> I might just as easily say that the working spouse assumes a large risk that he will have to pay alimony should he divorce. Nothing wrong with spreading the risk around a little bit, especially when the working spouse knows that he is in the far superior position come divorce proceedings.


The problem is that the onus has been traditionally only on the working spouse. And its damaging particularly to my gender. Its a reality that there are a huge portion of divorcing/divorced women and their children living in poverty because they don't plan well for these eventualities....which are a very real possibility. 

The burden on the working spouse is that during marriage, they bear the sole financial burden...that's the price they pay. In addition, due to likely income disparity, they'll also end up paying offset CS which is a fair risk because children should be taken care of. 

However, alimony only benefits the non-working spouse and their life after the marriage contracts ends should be their responsibility alone.

What's really amusing is that about a month I read a thread on a similar forum where a SAH dad was complaining about not getting alimony and there were a number of women that jumped down his throat about "putting on his big boy pants" and how he should "man up and get a real job." 

By the way, are you for the ex-spouse receiving alimony having a court order against them to come and clean the other ex-spouses house or cook their meals?


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

My daughter is 20 and she's friends and acquaintances with a few girls her age that have already married. They are all LDS and went off to Utah after high school to find their husbands, lol. My daughter thinks it's crazy to get married so young. Her main group of friends are going to school and want to establish careers before even thinking about marriage. They are dating and do want to have a significant other though.

I have to be honest, I'm kind of on the fence about living together before marriage. Of the divorced couples I know, most of them lived together first, so I don't think it helps in most cases.

My husband and I were both 25 when we got married. That was around the age of all of our friends too so I agree that we are probably influenced by our peer group. Same with kids. We all waited until about 29-30 to start having kids. 

This issue about men not marrying or "where are all the men" has been a scare tactic for decades now. I remember it the 80's. When was it when they tried to scare women with the statistic about a women in her 30's was more likely to be killed by a terrorist than marry, was it the 90's?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> So I just don't see what the big deal is, and in fact, I see it as progressive thinking to not get married young.


I normally like to disagree with you out of principle (and sometimes fun), but I strongly agree with you in this.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Being a SAHP isn't necessarily an irresponsible choice...being a SAHP that ends up in the middle of divorce that can't even feed their kids without handouts from the stbx is.


Morning Enigma,

That's your opinion and I can see where you are coming from. You are also correct in saying many live in poverty after divorce.

Our marriage is a little odd, I think. 

Prior to children we laid out a plan in case of divorce. I'm a somewhat traditional man when it came to our marriage. Keep in mind we're on the older side.

My wife was a stay at home Mom and that's what we agreed to. We were both wanting someone to stay home full time and had a handful of kids. More than most. 

Our agreement in case of divorce was; She will continue to look after the children and be a SAHM until the kids were well into their teens. I would give up all of our assets, house, car, furniture, savings, everything and would continue to split my cheque with her accordingly. It was her that needed that support so the children would be cared for properly. 1/2 my cheque and no debt would be plenty. 1/2 of my cheque would be enough for me. It would be impossible for me to look after them full time due to my job. 

I take my responsibility as a Father very seriously and this is what* I *wanted to do in case of divorce. My children come first and the feelings toward my potential X second, if it came to that. We separated once for a 1/2 year and that's exactly what I did.

Call me crazy, but my kids come first!

ETA: I've encouraged all of my children to live with a potential marriage partner for a minimum of three years before tying the knot.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I can not frown upon young marriages or I would would be putting down my own choices or saying I regret.. 

I think it all depends on the maturity level of the couple , how responsible they are with money, working, how compatible they are in future dreams, how they resolve conflict is huge.. do they REALLY Know themselves enough... what brings them fulfillment , do they have a vision to sacrifice for -when it is needed..... also not to expect everything to run smoothly.. having money for a torrential downpour when things go wrong.... can save stress by the bucket loads..

My husband was ready/ willing to marry me at 18.. when I came home from a date & my step Mom had my bedroom on the porch. I was to move out and never come back (her words to me)... it was just their belief.. at 18.. you are on your own... not really personal.. 

But I wasn't ready JUST YET..... I didn't want something like that to be rushed.. but I was 3 yrs later - I felt so strongly about the TIMING being right....when the Pastor asked me what scriptures to use in his talking.. One of those I chose was *the Seasons*.. "a time to be born, a time to die....a time to plant, a time to reap...a time to embrace".. etc... This was OUR TIME.. everything was just falling into place...there was a grand peace about it.. I was so excited.. anticipating..one of the happiest days of our lives... 

Looking back.. I wonder if some sitting in the pews when he was reading the seasons were thinking " What...is this a funeral?" .. those scriptures are common at deaths... NOT Weddings ! Silly me..


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

T&T said:


> My wife was a stay at home Mom and that's what we agreed to. We were both wanting someone to stay home full time and had a handful of kids. More than most.
> 
> Our agreement in case of divorce was; She will continue to look after the children and be a SAHM until the kids were well into their teens. I would give up all of our assets, house, car, furniture, savings, everything and would continue to split my cheque with her accordingly. It was her that needed that support so the children would be cared for properly. 1/2 my cheque and no debt would be plenty. 1/2 of my cheque would be enough for me. It would be impossible for me to look after them full time due to my job.
> 
> ...


 We never talked about divorce prior.. it's a good idea to do though - seriously!...covering all basis is very responsible planning .. with the realities of our day..

My husband is another like yourself T&T.. the kids come 1st...he feels strongly as a man to protect and provide for his family.. that's just how he is wired.. THIS brings him fulfillment to Be there, give to us.. . he has always preferred me to stay home.. when I worked around his schedule to watch our son. he missed our time together , was always telling me I didn't have to work....( at that time I wanted a WHOPPER down payment for a country home so I wouldn't quit).... I've always had his support..even in that.. I so greatly appreciated his attitude.. 

Money wise, he has allowed me to handle every dime.. He knows I can not waste money & I loathe being in any sort of debt.. we have never taken out a loan in our marriage other than our house/ property which we paid off in 7 yrs (cutting the original mortgage in half)... 

We're not rich by others standards but we've always done very well -on his income being overwhelmingly primary over the years.. 

He has commented (jokingly)...if I ever left him, he might as well shoot himself in the head with as many kids as we have. .. but hes not at all worried about this.. Him & the kids are my life..


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> This topic is being discussed elsewhere, but I thought I'd start a thread here in the Lounge, too...because the other thread is attempting to focus only on why men are not getting married as young, instead of just focused on why PEOPLE are not getting married as young.
> 
> I have two adult kids. One got married young, the other is 28 and never married. I wish the one who got married young would not have.
> 
> ...


I can't speak to young women but I know most of my female friends and family who are either divorced OR never married and hit 30 and beyond complain almost non stop about how no guys want to commit anymore. Now that is just not something I hear from my single or divorced Guy friends around the same age. I share this belief that women under thirty have an advantage in the dating market where over thirty it's an advantage for men. Not an across the board experience shared by everyone but men and women who seem to want to find marriage do so and get married before thirty. Those who wait or get divorced don't seem as eager, men, to get remarried vs all my divorced female friends and family who declare they want to.

In the other thread I posted that I think the reason Men and Women are choosing not to get married outright for probably a lot of reasons and not always the same. But one reason I think is universal for men and women is that they see and come from divorced households. They see no good example of a family unit and think of divorce as "no big deal". If you are entering into a marriage where the word commitment is just something you say vs something you actually believe in that could really lead to problems down the road.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

I got married young and I have no regrets. 

There are certain things I wish could have been handled better and that my husband would have behaved differently, but I don't regret anything or want a different life. There is no right way or wrong way to go about these things and there are pros and cons to each choice of when to marry. 

I know it's not common in the area I live to get married young, as most in this area wait to get married, but my husband and I didn't want to wait any longer. I got married right out of college, while most of my friends went on to either get their Master's degree or were more focused on their career. Only a couple of my friends are also married. I was the first in the group to have a baby, but I am slowly seeing others get married and have children, too. The ones who don't want to get married or see it as a very far off option are from divorced families themselves, which I think has a very big impact on their decision. My parents have been married for over 30 years and I know I've learned a lot from their marriage. 

I'm a SAHM mom now and really enjoy it. I'm really happy with the way things have gone in my life.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> I can't speak to young women but I know most of my female friends and family who are either divorced OR never married and hit 30 and beyond complain almost non stop about how no guys want to commit anymore. Now that is just not something I hear from my single or divorced Guy friends around the same age.


I only know 3 people (closely) who have never married. 2 men and 1 woman. All 3 are now about age 50.

All 3 have had more than one long term relationship, just not marriage.

The woman just wants a great relationship, doesn't care if it is marriage or not. She is not talking about it constantly. She has a great attitude and I'm sure love will find her (again). She never wanted children.

The 2 men both wanted children and they are the ones who are lamenting their fate. They are both good guys...both have good jobs, fun hobbies, interesting lives. 

Though one is/was a bad boy type and blew through his 20's and 30's without thinking of commitment (though he did have some LTRs). By the time he was in his 40's, he wanted to settle down and have a family but hasn't met any women who feel the same and are a good match for him.

The other guy - not a bad boy, just a great guy. Also had LTRs but no one who mutually wanted to marry him (he did ask a couple and was engaged for awhile but she left him).

I do have one other example...a guy...a family member...also about 50...never married, but mainly due to a major disability. He would have loved to be married and have kids, but his disability is more than most women can deal with. He is sad his life turned out this way, obviously. 

Because I know these people personally, I just won't buy in to the idea that unmarried women are the only ones lamenting about not finding a husband. Having heard it first hand from men, I know they also want to couple up and feel the loss when they don't. These are just men I know well, I know many others as acquaintances who are in the same boat.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

You know, @Anonymous07 I agree with you. My parents were married at 20 and 23 (almost 24), and were married for 40 years before mom passed away last year. One of my sisters married at 19 and divorced after 10 years of marriage because of his cheating. She has since remarried a man who is 9 years younger than she is. They have been married 7 years. My other sister married 7 years ago at the age of 25. They divorced 5 years later because he was cheating. She remarried last year... also to a younger man. He's 24, I think? 

And then, there's me. I was 24, almost 25 when I got married. My husband was 18, almost 19, and was in his last month of high school. Yes, you read that right. He finished high school, a married man. We have been married 15 years and I don't regret that we married as young as we were. The only thing I have ever suggested I would wait for was getting pregnant when I did. But, even that I wouldn't change. 

In the end, I have to say that I will counsel my children on the pros and cons of marrying young vs waiting. And, although I will likely get backlash from some here, I will counsel _against_ cohabitation before marriage. Yes, this is a "religious thing" and I feel strongly about it. But, ultimately, it is their decision. And I will respect their choices, even if I don't agree with them. That doesn't mean I will allow them to share a bed under my roof, if unmarried, though.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

People who want to marry will find each other. People who want to be part of the hookup culture will find each other. People who are in the hookup culture, but are looking for a spouse will be confused and write articles about how there aren't any marriageable men or women anymore.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> People who want to marry will find each other. People who want to be part of the hookup culture will find each other. People who are in the hookup culture, but are looking for a spouse will be confused and write articles about how there aren't any marriageable men or women anymore.


I sort of agree...but honestly, there is a very big spectrum between "dating" and "hook up culture". I don't really see why people tend to put other people in the "hook up culture" box so often. A lot of people may end up dating many people over the years, but they are doing so in hopes of finding a mate.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I sort of agree...but honestly, there is a very big spectrum between "dating" and "hook up culture". I don't really see why people tend to put other people in the "hook up culture" box so often. A lot of people may end up dating many people over the years, but they are doing so in hopes of finding a mate.


Agree. Dating and Hookup are not the same thing. I do think a lot of confusion about why women can't find men they want to marry, and vice versa, comes from looking in the wrong place. 

If you want someone to settle down with, Tinder isn't your best bet. But to someone on the "youthful" side, Tinder may be the only way they're equipped to find companionship. 

So instead of striking up a conversation with that nice looking gal at the bookstore who's reading your favorite philosopher, they go through a constant stream of throwaway relationships and end up deciding "maybe that's all there is out there".

I think it has less to do with extended adolescence and more to do with an evolution in the way we communicate with each other.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> I think it has less to do with extended adolescence and more to do with an evolution in the way we communicate with each other.


Right, and there is no reason to assume that "our way" or "our parents' way" would be better for these young people than "their way".

They are finding their way, paving their way, developing their way. They don't need us wringing our hands and clutching our pearls about what they are doing or how they are doing it.

If anything, we should all be looking at ourselves instead and figure out how to solve our own problem that we created for ourselves. We should also celebrate our own victories and triumphs. 

In my case, I consider my very best triumph is that I raised 2 excellent kids who are great people and are happy in life.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I only know 3 people (closely) who have never married. 2 men and 1 woman. All 3 are now about age 50.
> 
> All 3 have had more than one long term relationship, just not marriage.
> 
> ...


Guess we just know very different people then. I couldn't think of a single guy friend who is publicly announcing they want a LTR or Marriage and on the other hand couldn't think of a single female, friend or family member who wasn't publicly claiming they want one. Just different circles I guess. 

I was often the rare bird because I did want a relationship just not a marriage necessarily. I have never been a "sleep with every woman" can kinda guy


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yep, different circles. So there's really no reason to assume the people you know about represent "the reality of the situation" anymore than the people I know about.

I did not mention the many women I know who don't want marriage and aren't looking for it, could care less either way, are in LTR's and/or living with someone and happy like that...these women factor in to the "reasons" people don't get married until later now, too.

There really isn't a one-sided all male revolt against marriage like some of the guys want to think there is. It is both men and women who either want or don't want to get married, for their individual reasons. The new trend of getting married later in life (or never married) is being chosen by both men and women.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

In my circle of friends, there has been a recent spate of weddings. All were couples that had been together for 15+ years, some with children, some without.

My SO and I are now at 17 years, but not married, no plans to.

I guess some people just take a little longer than others to commit? :scratchhead:


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> We never talked about divorce prior.. it's a good idea to do though - seriously!...covering all basis is very responsible planning .. with the realities of our day..
> 
> My husband is another like yourself T&T.. the kids come 1st...he feels strongly as a man to protect and provide for his family.. that's just how he is wired.. THIS brings him fulfillment to Be there, give to us.. . he has always preferred me to stay home.. when I worked around his schedule to watch our son. he missed our time together , was always telling me I didn't have to work....( at that time I wanted a WHOPPER down payment for a country home so I wouldn't quit).... I've always had his support..even in that.. I so greatly appreciated his attitude..
> 
> ...


I am very much like your H. I'm curious SA, did he have a good mentor? His Father? I can't say enough about mine and am a very lucky man to have him in my life.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Our agreement in case of divorce was; She will continue to look after the children and be a SAHM until the kids were well into their teens. I would give up all of our assets, house, car, furniture, savings, everything and would continue to split my cheque with her accordingly. It was her that needed that support so the children would be cared for properly. 1/2 my cheque and no debt would be plenty. 1/2 of my cheque would be enough for me. It would be impossible for me to look after them full time due to my job.
> 
> I take my responsibility as a Father very seriously and this is what I wanted to do in case of divorce. My children come first and the feelings toward my potential X second, if it came to that. We separated once for a 1/2 year and that's exactly what I did.
> 
> Call me crazy, but my kids come first!


Well, that's my point...you have a plan.

A lot of SAHPs don't. Then during messy marriage problems...they're screwed and take zero responsibility for their not planning and blame it all on the working spouse. 

By the way, if you're going to make these agreements, you need a clear pre-nup...and even then, sometimes prenups can be challenged so you both need ILA.

I take my responsibility as a mother very seriously also...that's why I've always made sure that I was in a position where I could afford to take care of them.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Well, that's my point...you have a plan.
> 
> A lot of SAHPs don't. Then during messy marriage problems...they're screwed and take zero responsibility for their not planning and blame it all on the working spouse.
> 
> ...


She had my word (a promise) and that's all she needed. I have a reputation for being respectable to those who know me. It's extremely important to me and she's was/is well aware of that. 

She also knows how having children and Fathering them was/is extremely important to me. There's no way in hell I would let down my kids in any way, shape, or form!


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> She had my word (a promise) and that's all she needed. I have a reputation for being respectable to those who know me. It's extremely important to me and she's was/is well aware of that.
> 
> She also knows how having children and Fathering them was/is extremely important to me. There's no way in hell I would let down my kids in any way, shape, or form!


Unfortunately not all SAHP can rely on the word of their spouses during a separation.

On this forum, there's always a SAHP whining about how their husband is cheating or has left them and they don't have any money to keep a roof over their head and feed their kids. A lot of them have done zero to prepare for marital breakdown and their kids suffer for it. Its very common.

Part of the process of having kids means taking responsibility for their care in every eventuality...particularly one that happens 50% of the time.

What's interesting is that the court is recognizing the fact that adults should be self-sufficient also and alimony laws are starting to get very strict and limited. Europe did the same thing and is ahead of us in eliminating alimony in many countries and expecting adults to be self-sufficient.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Well, that's my point...you have a plan.
> 
> A lot of SAHPs don't. Then during messy marriage problems...they're screwed and take zero responsibility for their not planning and blame it all on the working spouse.
> 
> ...


A lot of people do have plans and those plans don't turn out as expected. It is great you are all organised and things have gone as you planned but you are seriously lacking in an understanding of the reality of some people lives.

One of the biggest post divorce/ child support issues here are the (mostly) men that intentionally decrease income after divorce to avoid child support. From low to very high income earners they are doing it in numbers. Men that were once earning good money $250k plus per year that all of a sudden earn 1/4 of that for tax purposes.

Or my sisters ex that is a teacher (she is a fully employed, always has been, nurse) as soon as they split he went down to 2 days per week and even though their agreement is 50/50 shared care (which is very common here) he simply doesn't have the kids. So she works full time, pretty much has the kids full time, gets no CS and has to deal with a complete ****head for the rest of her parenting years.

I know plenty of educated, hard working women that post divorce have got the bad end of the deal. It is not just SAHP that have to be prepared, everyone does. No one is smarter than the next person in any of this.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Unfortunately not all SAHP can rely on the word of their spouses during a separation.
> 
> On this forum, there's always a SAHP whining about how their husband is cheating or has left them and they don't have any money to keep a roof over their head and feed their kids. A lot of them have done zero to prepare for marital breakdown and their kids suffer for it. Its very common.
> 
> ...


I understand that and agree with you, EG. I said we were odd. 

I have very strong beliefs. I have no idea where they came from but hold myself to a very high standard, for whatever reason...It's taxing sometimes.

If anyone deserves a firing squad, it's a "dead beat dad"


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

T&T said:


> She had my word (a promise) and that's all she needed. I have a reputation for being respectable to those who know me. It's extremely important to me and she's was/is well aware of that.
> 
> She also knows how having children and Fathering them was/is extremely important to me. There's no way in hell I would let down my kids in any way, shape, or form!


Kudos to you. You sound like my ex, a very good man, one that I still trust and consider a good man.

We had no Lawyers involved in our divorce, made our own agreement and have stuck to it. After 5 years we still have one investment property together (sold off 3 in the last 4 years) and we trust each other.

When we divorced I felt no need to not trust him however I was very wary in case he repartnered while we still had a financial connection, new partners on the scene can be a problem especially when big money is involved.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Holland said:


> Kudos to you. You sound like my ex, a very good man, one that I still trust and consider a good man.
> 
> We had no Lawyers involved in our divorce, made our own agreement and have stuck to it. After 5 years we still have one investment property together (sold off 3 in the last 4 years) and we trust each other.
> 
> When we divorced I felt no need to not trust him however I was very wary in case he repartnered while we still had a financial connection, new partners on the scene can be a problem especially when big money is involved.


My X and I did the same, Holland. No courts, just "my word" She was a piece of work, but I still held up my end of the bargain. 

Why did you divorce, if you don't mind me asking?


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> but you are seriously lacking in an understanding of the reality of some people lives.


Actually, I understand reality quite well.

The reality is that there's a 50% divorce rate.



> I know plenty of educated, hard working women that post divorce have got the bad end of the deal. It is not just SAHP that have to be prepared, everyone does. No one is smarter than the next person in any of this.


If you can't understand the difference between an educated, working person having less income after divorce and an unskilled, un-networked, non-working spouse having zero income after divorce unless they're giving hand-outs from a judge...I certainly have no other means to clarify it to you.

Look up the statistics on the poverty rate of ex-SAHP and their kids. 



> One of the biggest post divorce/ child support issues here are the (mostly) men that intentionally decrease income after divorce to avoid child support. From low to very high income earners they are doing it in numbers. Men that were once earning good money $250k plus per year that all of a sudden earn 1/4 of that for tax purposes.


If you're trying to suggest that there are men that take action to financially screw their ex-spouses and kids during divorce, you'll get no argument from me.

That's why you have to prepare for it and be ready to rely on yourself....not for you but FOR YOUR CHILDREN.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> If anyone deserves a firing squad, it's a "dead beat dad"


I don't care for dead-beat dads but I also have zero respect for a SAHM who hasn't bothered to plan enough to be able to feed and house her kids in the event of a marital breakdown.

In both cases, with parents like this...the kids suffer for their lack of parenting.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> I don't care for dead-beat dads but I also have zero respect for a SAHM who hasn't bothered to plan enough to be able to feed and house her kids in the event of a marital breakdown.
> 
> In both cases, with parents like this...the kids suffer for their lack of parenting.


It _should_ be about the children but that's not the way it goes a lot of the time. Emotions get in the way...Downright hatred sometimes between the couple and the kids get stuck in the middle.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

T&T said:


> My X and I did the same, Holland. No courts, just "my word" She was a piece of work, but I still held up my end of the bargain.
> 
> Why did you divorce, if you don't mind me asking?


Well luckily I would never say my ex was a piece of work, I have always had a thing for what I consider good, honorable men 

Anyway we were together for just on 20 years, short version is that the marriage was passionless/sexless (not my choice) and I just could not live the marriage that his parents modeled to him, the till death do us part type. I stuck it out for the kids for as long as I could but then realised that we were modeling the same type of marriage that his parents had, to our kids, so I pulled the pin. It was not because he isn't a good man but because our marriage was dead inside. Turned out to be the best thing for both of us. I have since re partnered, ex and I have remained friends and co parent our kids better than many married couples.

We share the financial responsibility for our kids, do 50/50 shared care and attend all kids functions together as a family. We are what I would say is a real modern family, we have Christmas etc together with my family, he only has a sister left now but if she is in our Country then she is included, my partner and his kids, an all in, mixed up type of family we are  It works incredible well for us but yes it takes really grown up people to achieve this.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> It is great you are all organised and things have gone as you planned but you are seriously lacking in an understanding of the reality of some people lives.


By the way, I got divorced after over 20 years of marriage...have raised one child to adulthood and paid her over half of her university tuition by myself during the divorce....and I had another pre-teen at the time also that I had huge legal costs due to a custody battle. And I can ensure you, that wasn't what I planned. So I'm pretty sure I live in the real world. 

I would agree that I'm organized though. I love my kids and will always do my best to make sure they're taken care of. I take my role as a mother seriously....my kids are worth it.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

T&T said:


> It _should_ be about the children but that's not the way it goes a lot of the time. Emotions get in the way...Downright hatred sometimes between the couple and the kids get stuck in the middle.


Yep and no amount of pre planning can avoid this. It takes two good people to have a healthy relationship in divorce, ones that have the best interests of the kids at heart.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Holland said:


> Well luckily I would never say my ex was a piece of work, I have always had a thing for what I consider good, honorable men
> 
> Anyway we were together for just on 20 years, short version is that the marriage was passionless/sexless (not my choice) and I just could not live the marriage that his parents modeled to him, the till death do us part type. I stuck it out for the kids for as long as I could but then realised that we were modeling the same type of marriage that his parents had, to our kids, so I pulled the pin. It was not because he isn't a good man but because our marriage was dead inside. Turned out to be the best thing for both of us. I have since re partnered, ex and I have remained friends and co parent our kids better than many married couples.
> 
> We share the financial responsibility for our kids, do 50/50 shared care and attend all kids functions together as a family. We are what I would say is a real modern family, we have Christmas etc together with my family, he only has a sister left now but if she is in our Country then she is included, my partner and his kids, an all in, mixed up type of family we are  It works incredible well for us but yes it takes really grown up people to achieve this.


It's refreshing to hear that people can put their differences behind them for the greater good! Most often it doesn't happen...

Kudos to you!


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

T&T said:


> It's refreshing to hear that people can put their differences behind them for the greater good! Most often it doesn't happen...
> 
> Kudos to you!


Thank you  The first 12 months were incredibly difficult but once we got past the pain and the desire both of us have to put the kids first then we got on a good path.

But to the topic at hand...... ultimately I don't really mind what age my kids choose to marry (if at all) but more importantly I hope they look more closely at what marriage really is and take their parents lives as an example of the types of things to consider.

I think maturity is more important than age. I was married late 20's and very immature (still am at 48), I look at my kids and they have more maturity than I ever had at their ages.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Holland said:


> Thank you  The first 12 months were incredibly difficult but once we got past the pain and the desire both of us have to put the kids first then we got on a good path.
> 
> But to the topic at hand...... ultimately I don't really mind what age my kids choose to marry (if at all) but more importantly I hope they look more closely at what marriage really is and take their parents lives as an example of the types of things to consider.
> 
> I think maturity is more important than age. I was married late 20's and very immature (still am at 48), I look at my kids and they have more maturity than I ever had at their ages.


I don't care when they choose to marry. But, I do suggest they live together for 3 years to get to know the person better. Probably, due to my first divorce. I must admit, I'd be disappointed if they stayed single the rest of their lives. I like Grandkids!!  

Unless, one or more were gay/lesbian. 

I don't consider living together single. In my mind, it's a commitment just like marriage.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I'm all for people living together, it is hard to really know another person until you spend 24/7 with them.

In Aussie though you are considered defacto after 12 months of living together and the legal implications are the same as marriage so it is very important that they understand the legalities/responsibilities etc of marriage whether they are or aren't.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Holland said:


> I'm all for people living together, it is hard to really know another person until you spend 24/7 with them.
> 
> In Aussie though you are considered defacto after 12 months of living together and the legal implications are the same as marriage so it is very important that they understand the legalities/responsibilities etc of marriage whether they are or aren't.


It's the same here, but generally, couples don't go down that road.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

T&T said:


> I don't care when they choose to marry. But, I do suggest they live together for 3 years to get to know the person better. Probably, due to my first divorce. I must admit, I'd be disappointed if they stayed single the rest of their lives. I like Grandkids!!


Why so, when it's been pretty convincingly shown that co-habitation is a poor predictor of marital longevity? 

I'm not arguing against it, but it doesn't seem to serve any purpose beyond the simple pleasure of living together that would make me recommend it to the unmarried.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

T&T said:


> It's the same here, but generally, couples don't go down that road.


What do you mean exactly? Here there is no choice, you live together then you are considered the same as married from a legal POV regardless of a piece of paper or not. 

So if you advise your kids to live together for 3 years before marriage and they split up in that time what happens legally?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

T&T said:


> It's the same here, but generally, couples don't go down that road.


Where is this? Here, cohabitation is just that - cohabitation. They aren't considered de facto married. There are no added benefits, etc. It is just two people who are living together.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Where is this? Here, cohabitation is just that - cohabitation. They aren't considered de facto married. There are no added benefits, etc. It is just two people who are living together.


Are you in the US?

States that do recognize common law marriage include the following: Alabama, Colorado, District of Columbia, Georgia (if created prior to 1997), Idaho (if created before 1996), Iowa, Kansas, Montana, New Hampshire (for inheritance purposes only), Ohio (if created prior to 10/1991), Oklahoma, Pennsylvania (if created before 9/2003), Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas and Utah. Same-sex relationships or marriages are never recognized as common law.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Why so, when it's been pretty convincingly shown that co-habitation is a poor predictor of marital longevity?
> 
> I'm not arguing against it, but it doesn't seem to serve any purpose beyond the simple pleasure of living together that would make me recommend it to the unmarried.


Hi Cletus,

Maybe, because they don't have a Father who is on their ass about what a HUGE commitment it is? 0 

In my mind it does serve a purpose. Dating, spending time together doesn't bring out the "real" person. Living together is a different ball of wax.

How many times has the wife beater been labeled as the "nicest guy on earth" at work? Plenty...


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Are you in the US?
> 
> States that do recognize common law marriage include the following: Alabama, Colorado, District of Columbia, Georgia (if created prior to 1997), Idaho (if created before 1996), Iowa, Kansas, Montana, New Hampshire (for inheritance purposes only), Ohio (if created prior to 10/1991), Oklahoma, Pennsylvania (if created before 9/2003), Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas and Utah. Same-sex relationships or marriages are never recognized as common law.


I am in the US. My state does not recognize common law. I live in Michigan.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

T&T said:


> Hi Cletus,
> 
> Maybe, because they don't have a Father who is on their ass about what a HUGE commitment it is? 0
> 
> ...


Ok, so it's not a good predictor of a positive outcome (that has been determined empirically), but it might be a good diviner of a negative outcome. 

That follows my suggestion to always sleep with your prospective mate before marriage. You may not be able to determine the future of your sex life, but you can sure as hell determine your compatibility in the here and now.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Holland said:


> What do you mean exactly? Here there is no choice, you live together then you are considered the same as married from a legal POV regardless of a piece of paper or not.
> 
> So if you advise your kids to live together for 3 years before marriage and they split up in that time what happens legally?


Generally, no one bothers with the laws or courts if they separate. It's an unwritten rule for the most part. It is possible they would be held accountable, but rarely happens from what I've seen and experienced.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Ok, so it's not a good predictor of a positive outcome (that has been determined empirically), but it might be a good diviner of a negative outcome.
> 
> *That follows my suggestion to always sleep with your prospective mate before marriage.* You may not be able to determine the future of your sex life, but you can sure as hell determine your compatibility in the here and now.


In my mind, it wouldn't make any sense not to. But, I do respect other peoples ways.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

T&T said:


> Generally, no one bothers with the laws or courts if they separate. It's an unwritten rule for the most part. It is possible they would be held accountable, but rarely happens from what I've seen and experienced.


I really have no clue what defactos tend to do here in regard to post separation but legally they are as accountable and vulnerable as married couples. My kids are by birth right well off financially so my advice to them will always be to protect themselves with a Binding Financial Agreement if the choose to co habitate or marry. 

What happens in The US if people have children but are defacto and then separate? Here the obligations are the same as if legally married.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Holland said:


> I really have no clue what defactos tend to do here in regard to post separation but legally they are as accountable and vulnerable as married couples. My kids are by birth right well off financially so my advice to them will always be to protect themselves with a Binding Financial Agreement if the choose to co habitate or marry.
> 
> What happens in The US if people have children but are defacto and then separate? Here the obligations are the same as if legally married.


I don't know what happens in the USA. The laws are the same here. I'm in Canada and if children are involved you are held 100% accountable, single - living together - or married and rightly so! 

I also recommend they don't have children until legally married after the "trial run"


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

T&T said:


> I am very much like your H. I'm curious SA, did he have a good mentor? His Father? I can't say enough about mine and am a very lucky man to have him in my life.


His Father was a very giving man.. he was loved by ALL..he had many friends.. who stuck by him like a brother....we run into them in town.. and always a story....

I can't say his parents marriage was as close as ours.. they had 1 major contention ..her hoarding.. this drove him OUT OF THE HOUSE- so he hung out with his friends a lot ....I think this was about the only thing they fought about!... though they stuck it out till the end.. bickering over her Junk.. I had to tie my mouth shut around her cause she would get mad at him, venting to me.... and I'd be thinking...he is too lenient with her ...

Both wonderful parents though.. very loving to their kids.. It was his Father who opened up their home to me ...when he learned I was living in a camper in someone's back yard -- he told my husband.. "She can't do that.. go get her, she's living here !"... 

It wasn't my father who helped me buy my 1st car.. it was HIS FATHER.. ..I wasn't used to this sort of generosity growing up... I paid him back very quickly.. they found me a big old Buick (we called it the tank) when I was 16, shortly after getting my 1st job.... 

I hold his dad in the highest regard.. Yes.. Miss that man.. he died on Easter day about 9 yrs ago now...one of the 2 times I seen my husband cry -out of loss, was at his dad's funeral.

It's a very warm feeling to feel this way about a parent.. the sad thing for me is.. I feel this way MORE about his family than I do my own.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> You know, @Anonymous07 I agree with you. My parents were married at 20 and 23 (almost 24), and were married for 40 years before mom passed away last year. One of my sisters married at 19 and divorced after 10 years of marriage because of his cheating. She has since remarried a man who is 9 years younger than she is. They have been married 7 years. My other sister married 7 years ago at the age of 25. They divorced 5 years later because he was cheating. She remarried last year... also to a younger man. He's 24, I think?
> 
> And then, there's me. I was 24, almost 25 when I got married. My husband was 18, almost 19, and was in his last month of high school. Yes, you read that right. He finished high school, a married man. We have been married 15 years and I don't regret that we married as young as we were. The only thing I have ever suggested I would wait for was getting pregnant when I did. But, even that I wouldn't change.
> 
> In the end, I have to say that I will counsel my children on the pros and cons of marrying young vs waiting. And, although I will likely get backlash from some here, I will counsel _against_ cohabitation before marriage. Yes, this is a "religious thing" and I feel strongly about it. But, ultimately, it is their decision. And I will respect their choices, even if I don't agree with them. That doesn't mean I will allow them to share a bed under my roof, if unmarried, though.


My parents married at 23 and celebrated their wedding anniversary this month of 33 years. I got married at 22 and graduated with my bachelor's degree 8 months pregnant with our first child. My husband is older than I am and we met in college, dating for 3 years prior to marriage. We did not live together prior to marriage. I have no regrets. I know my MIL and FIL got married young at 21 and 25, and have celebrated 37 years of marriage. 

I've seen people get married young and people wait to get married. Waiting does not guarantee you anything. There are pros and cons to both, which I thought about. I know quite a few people who waited to get married and I know of at least a few couples who are already divorced. It's going to always be about the individual couple and how compatible they are and how they work things out. The marriages that last are ones where the couple work together to make it work. Every couple has highs and lows. 

All I want for my son is for him to be happy and healthy. I want him to find someone who treats him well and will always love him. If they want to marry young, they can do that. It is his life and his decision. I just want him to think all of it through and then make the best choice for the future he/his spouse wants.


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