# Husband Looking For a Cuddlist on Craigslist



## Phoenixabrams (Nov 13, 2017)

I’m not really sure how to go about this. I recently found a suspicious document on our computer. Here’s some background first... 

My husband and I have been married for 10 years. We’ve had our ups and downs as marriages often do. 

I have a tendency to shut people out when I’m dealing with things. Which is unfair in a relationship. And I’ve really been working on it because it does affect my husband quite deeply when I shut him out. We were already going through a rough patch when my brother died 2 years ago, which caused even more stress and building of walls. And for a while, our sex life was barely existing. And not just that, but our intimacy in general. It got rreeealy bad for a while. 

This next part of the story has already been resolved, but I bring it up because of recent events. So a few years ago, a year before my brother died, my husband broke down and told me that he had gone to a massage parlor after a long traveling work day and it ended up being one of those “happy ending” types. I believe him when he says that he didn’t know going into it. He lived in Utah his whole life and is a really decent person. But after he understood what was happening, he kind of just went with it.... not letting her touch him, but finishing off himself while on the table. Weird, yes, I know. It put a huge strain on our marraige. We became super cold toward each other and took a long time to repair. But we did and the following year was the best of our whole marraige. 

I started opening up about sex in a way that I hadn’t ever done before and our relationship flourished. But I feel like it also opened doors to places I didn’t necessarily want to go. 

We have 2 daughters and a baby boy that passed away a couple of months ago after a lengthy hospital stay. During the end of my pregnancy, I wasn’t feeling very sexy and our sex life took a dip. Then when our baby was born, he had so many health issues, that the stress started to build up again. Plus, we had a 3 month stay in the hospital, which didn’t allow us to have much alone time. Pretty much, our sex life was put on hold for a legitimate reason. 

We’re trying to survive the trauma and heart ache of loosing a child and I feel like we grew closer. But today I found a document on my computer that suggests we weren’t as close as I had thought. This document was a rough draft of a craigslist ad that my husband wrote up for the “casual encounters” section seeking a cuddlist. Im not sure if you know what a cuddlist is... it’s literally a person that cuddles with you. Like touch therapy. No sex involved, but this wasn’t him looking for a certified cuddlist that knows the boundaries of a client/professional relationship, it was asking normal women what they’d charge to cuddle with him. So who’s to say where it would have gone? In the ad, he said he “wasn’t single, but could justify it in his mind”. He set up rules such as “being descreet”, “no sex” but no mention of no kissing, etc., the woman would have to “host”, stuff like that. 

There was also another section (he types up word documents as a rough draft before he sends emails, so that’s what this document is.. a rough draft. It possibly wasn’t event sent) that looked like him responding to someone. In it, he does mention he’s married, but admits to lying to his wife (me) about going to a nude beach. To be honest, I wouldn’t even mind if he had told me, it’s the lie that kills me. We’ve participated in a nude bike ride before and it’s something that we enjoyed together. But this was on his own to blow off some of the stress of what was happening with our baby. Like a mid-life crisis thing. Which, I would understand if he had just told me. We’re kind of weird like that. We watch porn together and fantasize about threesomes and whatnot. So maybe I’ve allowed for some lines to be blurry. He also mentioned “doing lots of things lately that he wouldn’t normally do”. So I have no idea what that is. 

So I guess there’s no actual proof that he committed adultery. Other than the fact that he consciously made the descision to enter into some sort of intimate relationship with someone. Even if he didn’t post the ad. Even if he never actually met with someone, it was still something that he thought long and hard about and did come to a conclusion in his own mind that he could justify it. Would you still consider it a form of infidelity? And all the while, I was spending 24/7 at the hospital with our dying baby. 

I know he needs intimacy, I get that. And I know I can go long amounts of time without giving him what he needs. So am I partly to blame for his to look elsewhere for some kind of intimacy? But am i wrong to be so hurt and feel like he’s lost my trust? Especially since this isn’t the first time (massage parlor). I don’t really know where to go from here. I haven’t confronted him yet, but he definitely knows somethings wrong. He’s a really good person and an incredible dad. I just don’t know if I can fully trust him anymore which is really sad. 

I’d appreciate any kind of advice or input. Thank you.


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## GuacaColey (Sep 19, 2017)

Does he specify if he is looking for a male or female? How is your sex life? Does he have a history of childhood abuse or trauma? 

Answering these questions will help us give better advice. 


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## NickyT (Aug 14, 2017)

I understand withdrawing when you have issues in your life. I do that. One of my daughters is the polar opposite - something is tough in her life and she finds people to sit with, talk to, silently hang out with, cook a meal with, etc. I wish I were like that because what we do strains intimacy, as you are seeing.

Having said all of that, it seems that your husband has giving up on creating a connection with you and has resolved himself to finding the connection and intimacy he needs outside the marriage. While I think strains in a marriage are very normal when there are problems with children, what he is doing is slowly crossing all boundaries. My personal opinion is that lies are like cockroaches. If you find one, that means there are 10 more behind the wall. 

You both need counseling after the death of your child, and I think you also need marriage counseling. You seem to love each other, so I think someone helping you communicate and really hear the needs of the other would have a positive effect on your marriage.

Not sure I have told you anything you don't know....good luck, and I am sorry for the loss of your child.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Phoenixabrams said:


> I’m not really sure how to go about this. I recently found a suspicious document on our computer. Here’s some background first...
> 
> My husband and I have been married for 10 years. We’ve had our ups and downs as marriages often do.
> 
> ...


You have been dealt the worst possible card in life- the death of your child AND YOUR brother.

And you are now having to worry about your husband and the father of your children's --//?

This is abuse in MHO.

Who is taking care of you?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

sandcastle said:


> You have been dealt the worst possible card in life- the death of your child AND YOUR brother.
> 
> And you are now having to worry about your husband and the father of your children's --//?
> 
> ...


All true.

But, she assisted, she delisted.
Delisted herself from the card game, that she insisted.

At least too often.

And she folded the edges, made them unique.
Rolled them back,a bit, them cards.
She stacked the horrible deck given, now dare squeek.

She stacked that deck against the dealer.
That she herself, she hath dealt, she laid them out, he now the stealer?

He made the step, he is captain of his own destiny.
Yet, you gave him the impetus, the chart, that has led to this infamy.

Bring him back to port, back into your' arms.
Or leave him adrift, in his own sea of misery, free of your' lack....of charms.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

This grieving woman finds Craigslist "cuddle" posts sent or not sent-by the father of their dead child?

This is a new low.

Really- bottom feeding scum SOB.

Oh- raised in Utah? 

Yep- they have AMP in Utah!


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Sounds like the problems of lack or sex/intimacy were there long before the child passed and this event just made the marriage in hot water just hotter. Based on her writings, in not hard to conclude that Phoenix balances her problems across the back of her husband and expects him to put his needs aside, withdrawing into his shell until she's ready to come out and be his wife again. (as if he's a toy she just put back in the toybox until she's in the mood to play again. The husband lost a child and suffered the heartache also, coupled with, by her own words, isolating herself in accordance with her moods for the life of the marriage. 
Here's the bottom line Phoenix. If you ain't banging your husband an average of at least twice a week, don't be surprised if he's looking for entertainment elsewhere because from a man's point of view, you ain't giving him a priority. Sex is a litmus test for marriage whether you like it or not. Sometimes bottom feeding scum/SOBs are made and not born. My ex-wife made me among the worst.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

VladDracul said:


> . (as if he's a toy she just put back in the toybox until she's in the mood Sex is a litmus test for marriage whether you like it or not. Sometimes bottom feeding scum/SOBs are made and not born. .


Their child died.
DIED- as in dead but we need to be concerned about **** attention.

Gross.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

VladDracul said:


> Here's the bottom line Phoenix. If you ain't banging your husband an average of at least twice a week, don't be surprised if he's looking for entertainment elsewhere because from a man'/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> This is quite possibly the most DISGUSTING post I've ever read anywhere.
> ...


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

On this Cuddlist.

Oh, my!

How sad. 

Sad that a grown man needs a hug, not a tug.
Not a push and a pull, a clasping, pulsing, push back. 
Dismissing this all, with a disinterested shrug.

All this while lips from a loved one are not, not ever, rather never, pressed against his.

Seems cold, not bold.
At least as I see this unraveling, this being told. 

And later in his own bed, his memories revisited, re-whet.
The pulls and the tugs, his hands do busy, they do abet.

How sad.

Whence from do these men arise.
From were to they come.
From defeat, from despair, this, I surmise.

Not the strength to break free.
They break under the yoke.
And lay prone, under feminine feet, shaded in the dark, under the family tree.

They stick by their promises, their vows, not repairing.
Till the end, till the end of their days.
Never living, never dying, just desparing.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

So sad a "cuddliest" is needed and sought after on CRAIGSLIST.

Their baby dead. But Daddy needs "cuddles" and "banged twice a week".

Tragic.


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## GuacaColey (Sep 19, 2017)

I just find it strange that your DH was looking for a cuddlist on CL. I had to google to see what that was. It seems your DH has a deep longing for physical affection in any form. Is his love language touch? If it is, denying your spouse their greatest need from you is like depriving your marriage of the oxygen it needs.

I am so sorry for what you went through. Please understand I am not blaming you in any way. But grief does crazy things to people and I think @VladDracul did a good job of presenting another side. 

I hope you two can get counseling and cling to one another during these horrible trials you've had instead of retreating and grieving alone. 


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

GuacaColey said:


> I just find it strange that your DH was looking for a cuddlist on CL.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No way- Strange? Cuddliest with a dead child and the wifey is not "banging twice a week"

Strange?

Sick is more like it and then Posters are guilt tripping this grieving mother?

Sick.


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## Slartibartfast (Nov 7, 2017)

..


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Temple Grandin is quite the stretch here.

But- let us ignore the child that died and the absolutely devastated mother... Let's intertwine Temple and Craigslust Cuddilist. Just cause it makes YOU sound super smart.

Ugh.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Moderator note:-*

Folks, this is a tragic, dreadful situation and needs to be resolved by the couple who are involved.

What we do not need is anyone else making personal, snide attacks on other members.

That's not how we roll, on TAM.


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## Slartibartfast (Nov 7, 2017)

..


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

The need is "very deeply embedded" for a mother who has buried her child to not have to deal with Craiglist cuddles and AMP encounters or whatever that pathetic **** needs.

She needs the Father of THEIR dead child to comfort and console her and she absolutely would do the same for him.

Cuddliest? Really? On Craigslust?

How awful for this woman.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> *Moderator note:-*
> 
> Folks, this is a tragic, dreadful situation and needs to be resolved by the couple who are involved.
> 
> ...




Hope this is directed at sandcastle as everyone else seems respectful even if not saying what the op wants to hear. 


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

sandcastle said:


> ...
> 
> She needs the Father of THEIR dead child to comfort and console her and she absolutely would do the same for him.


Except she already said she DOES NOT do the same -- she closes him off. It's not only the mother who grieves when a child dies. From the sounds of what he did, this isn't about sex.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Hope this is directed at sandcastle as everyone else seems respectful even if not saying what the op wants to hear.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Huh?

I guess "banging the husband twice a week' was more helpful than acknowledging the absolute worst pain a person can feel ?

What?

Do you have ANY idea what this woman has gone through?

And then she gets to hear about Jacking off at AMP's and cuddles on craigslist? On top of taking care of her other babies? Temple Grandin is so relevant .

Talk about gaslighting.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Hope this is directed at sandcastle as everyone else seems respectful even if not saying what the op wants to hear.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Personal attack.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

jlg07 said:


> Except she already said she DOES NOT do the same -- she closes him off. It's not only the mother who grieves when a child dies. From the sounds of what he did, this isn't about sex.


Closes him off?

He sounds like such a safe guy when he is not looking for cuddles and AMP encounters.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

sandcastle said:


> Personal attack.




DARVO. 


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> DARVO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol- nice try.


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## GuacaColey (Sep 19, 2017)

sandcastle said:


> Huh?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Do you actually have any advice to contribute other than attacking everyone else's? 




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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

sandcastle said:


> Closes him off?
> 
> He sounds like such a safe guy when he is not looking for cuddles and AMP encounters.


Sandcastle, yes, she clearly said in her first post:
"I have a tendency to shut people out when I’m dealing with things. Which is unfair in a relationship. And I’ve really been working on it because it does affect my husband quite deeply when I shut him out."

and

"I know he needs intimacy, I get that. And I know I can go long amounts of time without giving him what he needs."

so yes, she closes him off, and this was WELL before she found the document, etc.. I am NOT saying the Massage Parlor was fine -- clearly it was not AT ALL. I am NOT saying she should allow this -- just refuting your particular comment that the WIFE was suffering with the loss of the child -- men also suffer when this happens. I was suggesting that IF she was not touching/grieving WITH her husband, he may have felt the need for touch (STILL not acceptable to find it outside the marriage). OP, did your husband ever talk to you about this need for touch/etc.??


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

GuacaColey said:


> Do you actually have any advice to contribute other than attacking everyone else's?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Advice?


1) most important is acknowledging her absolute evisceration losing her child.

Her husband is more concerned with Craiglust Cuddles so he is out. 

Divorce.

I'm sure the longtime posters can chime in about VAR, key loggers, PI, apps for that, polygraph etc.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Read the thread. Yes, Sandcastle wants his thoughts to trump all others...

THings I noticed: She said the guy TOLD her about the massage thing, she didn't find him out. He didn't have to tell her squat.
I think that may be a mitigating factor. He has seemingly implied that's not happening again, and OP seems to believe him (may be foolish, I don't know)

He didn't look for a prostitute, he looked for a cuddle person. His wife found him out. Did he WANT her to? Maybe.

She's admitted to cutting him out of any affection for long periods of time in the past. He apparently wants some damned intimacy. That's not wrong. We haven't heard his side of the story, but OP makes it clear she sees some fault in herself. 

I think it's very possible she could work on giving the dude some intimacy and he may stop looking elsewhere. Then again, he may be a serial cheating scumbag, I don't know.


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## GuacaColey (Sep 19, 2017)

sandcastle said:


> Advice?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Absolutely, 100% agree. Losing a child has to be one of the worst things a human being can face. 

But remember... the husband faced this too. 

You can sit on your high horse and say he was wrong for how he chose to deal with his grief because YOU would never do that. Well good for you. 

But sometimes we don't know what we would do until we are really tested by being put through fiery trials. 

When I come here for advice I don't want to just hear what makes me feel good. I want people who will examine all sides of an issue and present their opinions, because we *don't* know her husbands side. 


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## C3156 (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm with Evinrude, we don't have the whole story, especially the portion from the husband. Everyone wants to point the finger, but without the OP returning with more information, we are all guessing.

Personally I think that both involved with the marriage are looking for consoling with regards to the loss of their child. It sounds as though neither of them is really approaching the other to grieve and work through this time in their lives. Some grief counseling followed by some marriage counseling would probably do wonders for this couple.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

sandcastle said:


> This is quite possibly the most DISGUSTING post I've ever read anywhere.
> 
> This woman buried her child . And needs to "bang her husband at least twice a week " or else.


Why don't you go ahead and declare it "the most disgusting thread", Sandcastle. While you're at it, consider this couple as being two peas in a pod. She retreats into her "things don't suit me so don't you dare bother me" and he searches for action elsewhere when she dosn't give it up. And they've had this MO well before the death of their child. According to Phoenix's own words, its been happening the entire length on the marriage. I don't believe for a minute the husband is less traumatized than the wife but their ain't no way, according to her, he's going to get any comfort from his wife.


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## Slartibartfast (Nov 7, 2017)

..


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

Totally agree with all of you.

Cuddles on Craigslist for both Spouses- she probably needs a different cuddler than he does.

I think UTah has women equivilant of AMP- so yeah! All good in Provo!

And they both need to get"banged twice a week"

By someone.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

sandcastle said:


> Do you have ANY idea what this woman has gone through?


You continue to highlight how the mother has been devastated by the loss of the child. Do you completely discount the likelihood that the father would experience similar pain?

I would not excuse his seeking of intimacy outside the marriage, but I can allow for the likelihood that he feels depressed, angry, crushing loneliness, fear...perhaps even suicidal. His desperation to feel comfort (which the OP admits she is unable to provide) could likely drive an otherwise good man to seek non-sexual relief from someone else. 

It's up to the OP if this is something she can forgive. I doubt I would, but I am very good at comforting my wife so it's not very likely she would need to look outside our marriage to have such needs met.

One thing I see as a fact is that BOTH have extraordinary needs in the face of such a tragedy. It's not only unfair but frankly, it's rather cruel to judge someone so harshly given the extreme circumstances. She has a selfish need to disconnect and build a wall. He has a selfish need to have physical soothing in the form of cuddling. Why is one worthy of sympathy and the other of contempt?


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Phoenixabrams said:


> ....My husband and I have been married for 10 years. We’ve had our ups and downs as marriages often do.
> 
> ...We were already going through a rough patch when my brother died 2 years ago, which caused even more stress and building of walls. And for a while, our sex life was barely existing. And not just that, but our intimacy in general. It got rreeealy bad for a while.
> 
> ...



I few thoughts. First my heart goes out to you and all you have been through. Your H's antics have not lightened your load.

My suggestion to you is for you to forgive your H, get some marriage counseling, maybe later even family counseling to help you & your entire family with the grieving and guilt of loosing a baby.

My suggestion is that you read Chapman's book the 5 Languages of Love and Sue Johnson's book, Hold Me Tight. For many men, Touch is a principal love language and Sue Johnson explains how important touch it to all human beings (and mammals for that matter).

You have been under stress, as has your H. 

Did he cheat on you? Does it matter to you? Really, it is in the past and he probably didn't have intercourse with anyone, nor did he become emotionally attached to anyone. Your family needs to emotionally heal, you can either work to the future and everyone healing, or you can focus on the past.

Between going to a massage parlor and masturbating himself in front of a massuse versus paying someone for a cuddling session, I would be much more concerned about the cuddling session that didn't happen, because there could be emotional attachment.

Were his actions honorable and allow you to question his faithfulness? Not honorable and you would be a fool not to question him. 

It sounds to me like you have enough drama in your life without adding divorce to it, as do your kids and H. Forgive him, but tell him this is a wake up call and that you need to draw some lines in the sand that he will never cross, if he is to remain your H. If he can't live with those boundaries, you may just end up divorcing him.

Then set up counseling with him and you as you could really use some help in setting those boundaries and in discussing the pain you have both caused each other. Again, it sounds like he is a "touch" kind of guy and has real needs for that. If you read the books by Chapman and Johnson you will understand how incredibly important touch is to some people.

Good luck.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Phoenixabrams said:


> *I have a tendency to shut people out when I’m dealing with things. Which is unfair in a relationship.
> 
> Do you think?
> 
> ...



OP, it's obvious that your marriage has major issues. It has major issues before the massage parlor and it's had major issues since. At the root of those issues is your ability to even connect with your husband at all from the sounds of it. A marriage is supposed to be 2 against the world. It sounds bluntly obvious to me, that yours absolutely has not been.

You have seen the power of a relationship that works when 2 people work towards the same goal of happy and healthy relationship. You found it uncomfortable, so you withdrew.

I'm not about to beat around the bush, your husband is a cheater and a serial cheater to make things even worse. There's not much he can do to make himself a bigger dirt bag, and make no mistake he is a dirt bag for his actions.

I can't in good conscience judge him any worse than I judge myself. I am a cheater as well. I had a 3 week EA many years ago. My wife caught me, but I wasn't trying to hide it. She may have gotten her pound of flesh of the 10 or so years that she held it against me, but that doesn't even come close to the daily crucifixion I gave myself for over 15. There's no one that will ever be lower than I am for what I did. Your husband needs to face consequences for his actions. There is no doubt about that. He needs to be held accountable.

Let's not BS each other though. You have no clue what a marriage and a relationship is supposed to be. You have no business being in a relationship with him or anyone else until you realize that it's 2 against the world, not every person for themselves.

With any luck, you will divorce him, as that is the best way to make sure this never happens again. He simply CAN NOT BE TRUSTED.

Make no mistake though, it will be the best thing to happen to him, because then he can find a person that actually cares.

I was jaded as **** about marriage before, but this thread may just take the cake.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> Let's not BS each other though. You have no clue what a marriage and a relationship is supposed to be. You have no business being in a relationship with him or anyone else until you realize that it's 2 against the world, not every person for themselves.
> 
> With any luck, you will divorce him, as that is the best way to make sure this never happens again. He simply CAN NOT BE TRUSTED.


Pretty much dead on point. Both seem too much into themselves, (although the husband is not to defend himself) to give even the minimum of what's required for marriage. And remember,










* = * *Having sex less then 2 times a week*



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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Sue Johnson's book, "Hold Me Tight"
Hold Me Tight | Dr. Sue Johnson

VladDracul I have an OBD-II diagnostic tool. Would that work with regard to your "Check Engine" light above?


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Handy said:


> Sue Johnson's book, "Hold Me Tight"
> Hold Me Tight | Dr. Sue Johnson
> 
> VladDracul I have an OBD-II diagnostic tool. Would that work with regard to your "Check Engine" light above?


It would throw the code022428, "piston/cylinder out of time."








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