# An ugly truth?



## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

We see a lot of men in really bad situations on this forum. 
Some can be helped, and are willing to do the work and the hard things to take control of themselves and their situation, to improve themselves and their outcomes, whether they remain married or not. 

But many (probably the majority) are not. So many are either too wrapped up in flawed mental models or ineffective mindsets to understand / accept the reality of their situation - or too weak and unwilling / incapable of taking action to fix or leave their bad situation. 
So they just wallow in their indecision, weakness and victimhood.
And posters here often tell them things like “you deserve better than this” and “you can do better” or similar. And we often push them to manifest some dignity and self-respect.

But it occurred to me that maybe reality is a bit more Darwinian than that. 
Maybe there is a percentage of men who actually can’t or won’t do better, and maybe their crappy situation IS what they deserve. 
Like respect, self-respect is earned, and maybe they’ve never done anything to earn it. Maybe they’re just not capable of it.
Maybe they never developed any inherent dignity within themselves.
Maybe the reality is that there is a significant percentage of men out there who are just less competent, less dignified, less valuable as men. 

My general instinct has always been to believe that every human being is capable of being more, being better, being strong and competent, being respectable, if they choose to. And I’ve seen the foolish become wise and the weak become strong, and it’s a beautiful thing.
But maybe that doesn’t apply to everyone. And maybe there’s just a (seemingly growing) portion of men who are just inherently substandard and incapable as men.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

DudeInProgress said:


> We see a lot of men in really bad situations on this forum.
> Some can be helped, and are willing to do the work and the hard things to take control of themselves and their situation, to improve themselves and their outcomes, whether they remain married or not.
> 
> But many (probably the majority) are not. So many are either too wrapped up in flawed mental models or ineffective mindsets to understand / accept the reality of their situation - or too weak and unwilling / incapable of taking action to fix or leave their bad situation.
> ...


They have a fear of being alone and what they have, as poor as it might be, is better than being alone in their minds.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

The average Western male has been beaten down so much that he will accept almost anything. I get it. I'm well above average in many ways but I've been there myself. You go on a dating site without knowing how horrible it is, just to be ignored by at least 90%+ of the female population. You can't talk to women at work, the gym, or almost anywhere else because that's seen as evil, catcalling, patriarchal behavior. If you have any real problems in life, you can't count on anyone to stand with you and help you with them. You can't even talk about them. If that guy, and trust me, that is MANY guys these days, finds a woman that will at least keep him company, even if she treats him rather poorly and almost openly cheats on him...he is going to be tempted to stick around. What alternative does he have? Start OLD back up and get ignored by all women ever? At least with his cheating wife/GF he can maybe pretend in his head that she cares about him.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

There was a guy on here yesterday talking about how his girlfriend and himself got on a train and for the entire seventy five minute journey his girlfriend (of two months) ignored him and talked to two other men in a language that the op didn’t understand.
When they got off the train he dumped her and he got a lot of people here telling him that he was wrong. Telling him that he should have communicated to her that he was lonely and could they speak English (which they could incidentally) so that he could join in her conversation. Also telling him she didn’t understand that her behaviour was inappropriate and he needed to explain. 
If your girlfriend doesn’t understand why you would be pissed because she ignored you to talk to strange men then the only communication she needed was what she got.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Every situation is different and you can't generalise.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> Every situation is different and you can't generalise.


Not all situations are different though. If another cuckold thread gets posted as a first post I guarantee I can cut and paste answers from previous posts that exactly fit.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Not all situations are different though. If another cuckold thread gets posted as a first post I guarantee I can cut and paste answers from previous posts that exactly fit.


The general situation can be the same, but there can be several root causes.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

If someone treats you like crap it’s very poor behaviour on their part.
If you put up with it or try to find some reason/excuse for them treating you this way then that’s down to you. And you deserve all you get.


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## plastow (Jan 4, 2022)

DudeInProgress said:


> We see a lot of men in really bad situations on this forum.
> Some can be helped, and are willing to do the work and the hard things to take control of themselves and their situation, to improve themselves and their outcomes, whether they remain married or not.
> 
> But many (probably the majority) are not. So many are either too wrapped up in flawed mental models or ineffective mindsets to understand / accept the reality of their situation - or too weak and unwilling / incapable of taking action to fix or leave their bad situation.
> ...


this is maybe a result of womens emancipation and increasing aggression against all men have stood for through the ages.its like a pendulum,first men had all the power now its swinging away and many men are now confused and trying to understand their place in the new age of women.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> And maybe there’s just a (seemingly growing) portion of men who are just inherently substandard and incapable as men.





Enigma32 said:


> The average Western male has been beaten down so much that he will accept almost anything.


This IMO is a "feature" of the "developed" western world, the USA in particular. Any population is a continuum, so of course there is a portion of men who would be "substandard" and "incapable". Mostly because they were never taught or mentored by a confident male as they were maturing. I have no idea what percentage of the population that portion amounts to. None of the men I have contact with are in that portion. I suspect it may be an attribute of the younger generations but don't know. None of my younger relatives have any problems with the opposite sex, their romantic lives are very successful and they aren't "beaten down" at all.

Maybe this site automatically selects the portion you are talking about. I mean what confident man would be writing to internet strangers asking if he ought to let his "wife" go bang some strangers while he watches? I think the vast majority of males, confident or not, would just tell her to go bang all she could find on her own time and file for divorce yesterday.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> This IMO is a "feature" of the "developed" western world, the USA in particular. Any population is a continuum, so of course there is a portion of men who would be "substandard" and "incapable". Mostly because they were never taught or mentored by a confident male as they were maturing. I have no idea what percentage of the population that portion amounts to. None of the men I have contact with are in that portion. I suspect it may be an attribute of the younger generations but don't know. None of my younger relatives have any problems with the opposite sex, their romantic lives are very successful and they aren't "beaten down" at all.
> 
> Maybe this site automatically selects the portion you are talking about. I mean what confident man would be writing to internet strangers asking if he ought to let his "wife" go bang some strangers while he watches? I think the vast majority of males, confident or not, would just tell her to go bang all she could find on her own time and file for divorce yesterday.


I would say that almost 70% of men in the US are lost


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> I would say that almost 70% of men in the US are lost


That may be true, idk. But how much has that changed? Men were always spread across a spectrum of leaders and followers, weak and strong. I don't think we have a good way of telling how much is a recent phenomenon and how much is historically normal.

Having said that, I do believe this is a “feature” of the modern world and the wooseification pendulum has swung, and is still getting worse.

Add one more point...we’re on a relationship board where people bring their problems. Our visibility to the doormats of the world is maybe skewed? I hope?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> That may be true, idk. But how much has that changed? Men were always spread across a spectrum of leaders and followers, weak and strong. I don't think we have a good way of telling how much is a recent phenomenon and how much is historically normal.
> 
> Having said that, I do believe this is a “feature” of the modern world and the wooseification pendulum has swung, and is still getting worse.
> 
> Add one more point...we’re on a relationship board where people bring their problems. Our visibility to the doormats of the world is maybe skewed? I hope?


You may be right about our visibility being skewed but I can say that most of my friends and colleagues have issues too. So maybe it isn't that far off.


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

Men are often blindsided by divorce or a breakup. And then our DNA kicks in and tells us we can fix it..meanwhile the woman is usually done at that point. So some men resort to anything…begging, crying, open marriages, other compromises..to try and save the relationship. That’s why so many end up on this site…looking for help and hope.

I think the demasculinization of men and the feminine movement have done more to harm marriages than anything. Sure that won’t sit well with some, but I firmly believe it.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

SCDad01 said:


> I think the demasculinization of men and the feminine movement have done more to harm marriages than anything. Sure that won’t sit well with some, but I firmly believe it.


Truth.

Not to say the feminine movements have been all bad, just thinking of what it is now? H to the No.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

DudeInProgress said:


> We see a lot of men in really bad situations on this forum.
> Some can be helped, and are willing to do the work and the hard things to take control of themselves and their situation, to improve themselves and their outcomes, whether they remain married or not.
> 
> But many (probably the majority) are not. So many are either too wrapped up in flawed mental models or ineffective mindsets to understand / accept the reality of their situation - or too weak and unwilling / incapable of taking action to fix or leave their bad situation.
> ...


I have a friend (Roger) who for the last 30 years has complained to people about how badly his wife treats him.
Everything that went wrong and was wrong in his life he`d blame his wife.
He used to tell me, one day he`ll drive off into the sunset and be gone. I used to believe him and say, don`t do that. Took me years to realise that was all BS.
Another time one of our mutual friends (Terry) told Roger`s wife to show more respect towards her husband. When Roger found out he told Terry, how dare you speak to my wife like that and fell out with him.
Then over the years after listening to Roger gripe about his wife, it began to get boring and wear me down and so these days I only contact him rarely by email.
He married in 1982 and today he is 76 years old and still with her, they do not have children together, his wife has 2 children from a previous marriage and he complains about them too.
There are men that actually like to be dominated (simps) and in-fact their wives become substitute mothers.
He used to tell me, can`t do this or that today because his wife wants him to do something else.
These guys enjoy the poor me and crave for sympathy, I describe giving a semblance of being the long and suffering expecting others to feel pity for them.
In my mind these type of men are weak and pathetic and deserve the women they get, because we only get treated the way we let people treat us.
No sympathy for these guys and best avoided.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> The general situation can be the same, but there can be several root causes.


Agreed. But several root causes don't equate to the statement all situations are different. 

Now I'm pulling your chain a bit granted. 🙂


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## nospam99 (Apr 26, 2018)

I don't post much. But this one struck enough of a nerve that I thought I'd share my story.

My ex (33 year relationship, 28 year marriage, 11 year separation, 5 year divorce 'negotiation', still lawyered up about her mismanagement of (three) kids' trust funds) was 'non-supportive' from the start and got significantly worse every time there was a outside stressor on the family. We 'stayed together (through the separation) for the sake of the kids' and I have no regrets about that. Living in the New York Feminist Socialist Republic, she got half of my savings in excess of hers in the divorce. Given her lack of contribution to the family, unfair to me. But the 'ugly truth' is that 'no fault' divorce laws are what they are. I justify my 'sticking with it' through the stressful years as the benefit it accrued for my children. I was happier living alone during the separation and happier now to be divorced instead of married to her.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> They have a fear of being alone and what they have, as poor as it might be, is better than being alone in their minds.


I suppose a lot of people are a victim of inertia. The easiest thing to do when faced with a problem is nothing. Roof leaks, put a bucket under it. Wife cheats, make excuses for her. If they were adventuresome they would wonder what would life be like after dumping their problem. From a lot of the men writing in here wondering if she has an AP, when it is obvious to all of these internet strangers that she has had at least one for years, they can't see their life would actually be better with a dog instead of "married" to a cheating woman. A dog is faithful and loves unconditionally.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

*


Gregory Chaucery said:



They have a fear of being alone and what they have, as poor as it might be, is better than being alone in their minds.

Click to expand...

*Sad but true. Some the weakest ones actually need to be told when to come in out of the rain.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

DudeInProgress said:


> We see a lot of men in really bad situations on this forum.
> Some can be helped, and are willing to do the work and the hard things to take control of themselves and their situation, to improve themselves and their outcomes, whether they remain married or not.
> 
> But many (probably the majority) are not. So many are either too wrapped up in flawed mental models or ineffective mindsets to understand / accept the reality of their situation - or too weak and unwilling / incapable of taking action to fix or leave their bad situation.
> ...


It's a personality thing. Guys who suck it up and accept the abuse at home are probably like that in life in general. Some people are incapable of dealing with conflict and tough situations in general, they're everywhere. I think you're spot on about it being darwinian. 

And I see a lot of rumbling in media and on the internet about men being toxic blah blah blah. Some men are douchebags, some women think all men are douchebags. And some men a good quality strong men, and a whole lot of mature women still prefer the strong confident man. 

I do think some boys are being raised to conform to this new ultra-sensitive model man. Some guys act all soft and mushy because they think thats what girls like. Some girls look for those soft mushy guys. I think many girls college age will date a bunch of those soft boys and come to the epiphany that thats not what they're attracted to and at the same time meet some stronger men and realize a man can being strong and confident and take charge and still be a good and kind person. It's societal over correction. 

Watching my son and his friends I definitely have more optimism than others. But their fathers and mothers are trying to raise real men, not the new twitter approved brand of man.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Agreed. But several root causes don't equate to the statement all situations are different.
> 
> Now I'm pulling your chain a bit granted. 🙂


They are different because the end result will be different. Taken as whole, every situation is different, end-to-end.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> We see a lot of men in really bad situations on this forum.
> Some can be helped, and are willing to do the work and the hard things to take control of themselves and their situation, to improve themselves and their outcomes, whether they remain married or not.
> 
> But many (probably the majority) are not. So many are either too wrapped up in flawed mental models or ineffective mindsets to understand / accept the reality of their situation - or too weak and unwilling / incapable of taking action to fix or leave their bad situation.
> ...


Can’t say I disagree with your assessment. 

I was there myself - but this place helped me and now I’m in a much situation than I was before. No matter what happens in my life now, I know it will be better than the broken marriage I have left. I can guarantee that there is no way I would have pushed for something better in my life if I didn’t come here and learn. I would still be married to a selfish person and dying a slow, painful death. No question. 


You may be right. Maybe some people can’t be saved. But does that mean we stop trying? What if the next person that comes here is like me and can be saved? What if he/she is ignored? It’s sorta like how the laws are written. It’s tough to put away criminals and they can get off due to technicalities - but the laws are written that way so that we avoid putting innocent people in prison. 

Lastly, what we need to do is help the next generation of folks. That’s my main goal. I know most of us here are parents. I’m tired of the way the western world works these days. Im going to make sure that my two kids do not grow up to be terrible like the typical modern day person. Im definitely going to show them the way that doesn’t go towards feminism and victimhood.


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## moon7 (May 5, 2013)

DudeInProgress said:


> Maybe there is a percentage of men who actually can’t or won’t do better, and maybe their crappy situation IS what they deserve.


^^^ THIS is so true for many life dramas. For many men and women.

Not to mention we only get a franction of their own version of facts, not the entire drama, nuances, misunderstandings and on and on, behind it and that culminated there.



DudeInProgress said:


> And I’ve seen the foolish become wise and the weak become strong, and it’s a beautiful thing.


The contrary is true too. The good one corrupted is a daily occurrence. 

A person's personality can develop up or down (vide: 12 Layers of Personality study).


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> But it occurred to me that maybe reality is a bit more Darwinian than that.


I have wondered if this is a feature of decadence. That our society has aged past its best by date, gone off the rails of what worked for successful societies over eons of human existence.

For sure, when a majority of males become unable or unwilling to be men, there are plenty of aggressive confident males elsewhere in the world to fill the vacuum. Decadent Societies have been conquered by the more robust invaders throughout history. And the victors will wipe all of the PC BS away without a trace.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Andy1001 said:


> There was a guy on here yesterday talking about how his girlfriend and himself got on a train and for the entire seventy five minute journey his girlfriend (of two months) ignored him and talked to two other men in a language that the op didn’t understand.
> When they got off the train he dumped her and he got a lot of people here telling him that he was wrong. Telling him that he should have communicated to her that he was lonely and could they speak English (which they could incidentally) so that he could join in her conversation. Also telling him she didn’t understand that her behaviour was inappropriate and he needed to explain.
> If your girlfriend doesn’t understand why you would be pissed because she ignored you to talk to strange men then the only communication she needed was what she got.


Yes but in that thread, he went silent and just hopped on his phone. He should have spoken up immediately and set the expectations. If she still didn’t comply, then cut her loose.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I agree about the men that first show up on TAM. Weak, indecisive and passive. However, I also believe that the few men that divorce become more aware of their behaviors and what they will and will not tolerate. There’s a lot more information readily available for those men that have had their balls cut off. I’d like to think _these_ men find their balls again.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

RebuildingMe said:


> Yes but in that thread, he went silent and just hopped on his phone. He should have spoken up immediately and set the expectations. If she still didn’t comply, then cut her loose.


Your missing my point. The fact that he would have to do this is ridiculous.
As I’m writing I see you’ve added another post, would you not think that prevention is better than cure?
If men didn’t take this crap in the first place these entitled b’s would soon learn their lesson.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Andy1001 said:


> Your missing my point. The fact that he would have to do this is ridiculous.
> As I’m writing I see you’ve added another post, would you not think that prevention is better than cure?
> If men didn’t take this crap in the first place these entitled b’s would soon learn their lesson.


I think for things like this, expectations should be made clear first. Maybe he has before? I don’t know. It’s different then finding out your girl is cheating. That’s an immediate dismissal.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DudeInProgress said:


> We see a lot of men in really bad situations on this forum.
> Some can be helped, and are willing to do the work and the hard things to take control of themselves and their situation, to improve themselves and their outcomes, whether they remain married or not.
> 
> But many (probably the majority) are not. So many are either too wrapped up in flawed mental models or ineffective mindsets to understand / accept the reality of their situation - or too weak and unwilling / incapable of taking action to fix or leave their bad situation.
> ...


I can't help but be optimistic and a bit idealistic when it comes to developing and growing but I have to admit your assessment is probably correct far more than I want it to be.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Not to come off as promoting promiscuity but the percentage of men not having (or never have had) sex is really alarming. That alone is a huge Red Flag.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

RebuildingMe said:


> I think for things like this, expectations should be made clear first. Maybe he has before? I don’t know. It’s different then finding out your girl is cheating. That’s an immediate dismissal.


I guess it depends on the guy. I wouldn't have even finished the trip with her and started a conversation with someone else.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Not to come off as promoting promiscuity but the percentage of men not having (or never have had) sex is really alarming. That alone is a huge Red Flag.


The dating site Hinge released some stats that say 80% of the women using the app filter by height, requiring a guy to be 6'. So that means 80% of the women are only willing to date 14% of the population. That doesn't even factor in other traits she may use to weed out men. Ye old 80/20 rule all the Red Pill guys talk about, but it seems to be getting worse.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> The dating site Hinge released some stats that say 80% of the women using the app filter by height, requiring a guy to be 6'. So that means 80% of the women are only willing to date 14% of the population. That doesn't even factor in other traits she may use to weed out men. Ye old 80/20 rule all the Red Pill guys talk about, but it seems to be getting worse.


As a significantly sub-6 foot dude, it was never a problem for me. A limiting factor, sure. But I managed to do well enough In high school and college, prior to marrying my objectively very attractive wife.
Of course, my dating days were back in the 90s, prior to the prevalence of online dating.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

DudeInProgress said:


> As a significantly sub-6 foot dude, it was never a problem for me. A limiting factor, sure. But I managed to do well enough In high school and college, prior to marrying my objectively very attractive wife.
> Of course, my dating days were back in the 90s, prior to the prevalence of online dating.


Same, minus some dating droughts here and there. I'd say some sub 6' guys might have better luck meeting ladies in person, but the current climate in the USA tells men never to talk to women in public. Also, they probably spend a lot of time trying and failing to talk to women online, which has probably done a number on their confidence all around. I still remember my last foray into OLD maybe 3 years ago where I only got a reply maybe 10% of the time I sent out a message. Out of all those replies, many of them were just time wasters, so I only got 2 actual dates in months of trying. To the rest of women, I was completely invisible, and I am not even a bad looking guy...just average. That sort of thing does something to these guys. Bet on it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> The dating site Hinge released some stats that say 80% of the women using the app filter by height, requiring a guy to be 6'. So that means 80% of the women are only willing to date 14% of the population. That doesn't even factor in other traits she may use to weed out men. Ye old 80/20 rule all the Red Pill guys talk about, but it seems to be getting worse.


OLD is definitely a weird subworld that I hope doesn't indicate the future.

I'm not sure how much social media and OLD are contributing to male celibacy but if they are large culprits, they need to be ignored and done away with.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> OLD is definitely a weird subworld that I hope doesn't indicate the future.
> 
> I'm not sure how much social media and OLD are contributing to male celibacy but if they are large culprits, they need to be ignored and done away with.


OLD has gone from something fringe back in my younger days, to the norm today. It's considered impolite to talk to women almost anywhere else, so men use OLD or social media to do it. And if you see how that goes for most of them, you can start to understand "the ugly truth" this thread is all about.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> OLD has gone from something fringe back in my younger days, to the norm today. It's considered impolite to talk to women almost anywhere else, so men use OLD or social media to do it. And if you see how that goes for most of them, you can start to understand "the ugly truth" this thread is all about.


I don’t know, I am married and I still talk to women out in public. I’m not sure it’s as hard as you’re making it out to be.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DudeInProgress said:


> I don’t know, I am married and I still talk to women out in public. I’m not sure it’s as hard as you’re making it out to be.


I'm not trying to assume what it's like for everyone but I could be pretty successful at dating in real life if I had to these days.

I got my haircut today and probably could have had a good shot with a couple of the stylists for dinner. 🙂


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## CrapMan (7 mo ago)

I like this phrase:
"wooseification pendulum has swung"


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

DudeInProgress said:


> We see a lot of men in really bad situations on this forum.
> Some can be helped, and are willing to do the work and the hard things to take control of themselves and their situation, to improve themselves and their outcomes, whether they remain married or not.
> 
> But many (probably the majority) are not. So many are either too wrapped up in flawed mental models or ineffective mindsets to understand / accept the reality of their situation - or too weak and unwilling / incapable of taking action to fix or leave their bad situation.
> ...


First I think that every man should be made to read Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy. I think that the discussion about men being raised by women since the industrial age and in the process being taught that pleasing women is how to be happy is at the core of this topic. Once upon a time, boys went out with their fathers to learn what it meant to be a "man."

I also think that in addition to being trained to become co-dependent upon women, modern men are very afraid of the unknown and ill prepared emotionally to be independent and self confident.

As someone who hired lots of people, I saw far to many "men/boys" who said give me a job and I will work hard for you. I wanted them to tell me that they know what they want to do, have a career that they are dedicated to and that they intend to pursue that career and bring value to the company. Far too many men/boys view life as being given a job rather than building a career. They treat their lives the same way. Give me a life and a wife so I can be happy, I have no idea what I want and have no intention of fighting for what I want.

The other problem I see over and over again, is the lack of "family." Let me explain what I mean. I have helped nieces and nephews get jobs, advised them on life crisis, and I have helped godsons and goddaughters. I have further been their to support my children with remodeling their houses via physical labor and with money. The concept of family and helping family succeed is no longer as strong as it once was. I remember growing up and on vacations my parents would travel by car to the houses of relatives and they would visit and stay overnight at the relatives home. Today that is really uncommon. You might while driving in the area stop for lunch at a restaurant, but that is about the extent of the visit.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

gameopoly5 said:


> There are men that actually like to be dominated (simps) and in-fact their wives become substitute mothers.
> He used to tell me, can`t do this or that today because his wife wants him to do something else.


Yeah. There are many people, both men and women, who basically see a spouse as a kind of parent. And like it that way. They never have to grow up. It can work, but usually it causes a lot of problems. 



Enigma32 said:


> It's considered impolite to talk to women almost anywhere else,


This was always the case. I'm kind of glad to see it returning. In Victorian times, for example, it was the worst possible social offence for a man to speak to a woman to whom he had not been formally introduced. And I see the woke culture gradually taking us back towards those victorian social codes, which to me is a good thing. Of course our new version of it will be different from the old one, times move on.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Enigma32 said:


> The dating site Hinge released some stats that say 80% of the women using the app filter by height, requiring a guy to be 6'. So that means 80% of the women are only willing to date 14% of the population. That doesn't even factor in other traits she may use to weed out men. Ye old 80/20 rule all the Red Pill guys talk about, but it seems to be getting worse.


But see, that is 80% of the women using that app. What are attributes of women using an ap to try to get a date? So maybe 80% of THOSE women require a man to be over 6' before they will date them. Maybe 80% of the men using the ap will only date women with D cups or larger weighing less than 130 lb. People can want whatever, but unless 80% of the opposite gender meets the criteria it ain't gonna happen.

I had never even heard of "red pill" until visited TAM. Had to look it up to find out what that was all about. Rather astounding. I don't believe any of it. Never met any man irl who did. At the end of the day the average man and average woman are well "average". And both genders ultimately end up living average lives. Most people didn't select their mate using an ap.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Enigma32 said:


> he current climate in the USA tells men never to talk to women in public. Also, they probably spend a lot of time trying and failing to talk to women online, which has probably done a number on their confidence all around.


Seriously?!? Men can't talk to women in public? My young male relatives spend all of their time doing exactly that. In the hallways at school, in the malls, at the 4bucks coffee place, in the park, where ever. And my older divorced male friends and relatives spend all of their time chatting up women where ever.

If they are "talking" with women online, they are barking up the wrong tree IMO.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> Seriously?!? Men can't talk to women in public? My young male relatives spend all of their time doing exactly that. In the hallways at school, in the malls, at the 4bucks coffee place, in the park, where ever. And my older divorced male friends and relatives spend all of their time chatting up women where ever.
> 
> If they are "talking" with women online, they are barking up the wrong tree IMO.


Actually, he is correct. In most cases there is an element of danger in even approaching a woman, especially in certain scenarios. It's not worth losing what you have worked hard for just to chat up some woman who may be an angry feminist.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Ok. I only know about friends and relatives, never observed any “risk”. Heck, have been in grocery store buying food for camping trip with divorced friend. He asked a woman in produce section about best strategy for selecting melons. They yakked so much I told him I would wait for him in the car. He wasn't arrested.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> Actually, he is correct. In most cases there is an element of danger in even approaching a woman, especially in certain scenarios. It's not worth losing what you have worked hard for just to chat up some woman who may be an angry feminist.


Element of danger in even approaching a woman? Is she the woman with the dragons in Game of Thrones?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> You may be right. Maybe some people can’t be saved. But does that mean we stop trying? What if the next person that comes here is like me and can be saved?


I think the important thing is to be exposed to ideas.

There are a lot of ideas out there and some of them I started hearing as a young man.

In college I remember a friend of mine got married. I was at his apartment and his wife was making dinner and we were smoking cigars on his balcony. He had a jar of pennies there and I asked him what that was about. He said his grandpa told him if you put a penny in it every time you have sex the first year you’re married, you’ll never take all of them out if you take one out every time after the first year. Note: he had a lot of pennies in there so I was like damn son!

Around that time you had popular sitcoms like Married With Children and such also poking at these topics.

You had the “7 year itch” cliche, which in my life started kicking around just around that milestone.

So I thought ok well maybe this is how it is. I didn’t even consider the TMI I had from my own mother because she’s crazy.

If instead in my life I had Dead Bedroom Fix or this forum when I was maybe 30 years old my life would have been very different.



Young at Heart said:


> Far too many men/boys view life as being given a job rather than building a career. They treat their lives the same way.


This is VERY true and it’s even worse in Europe.

I pretty much knew what I wanted to do for a career around the time I was 10-11 years old and that’s exactly what I did and do just through sheer force of will and possibly also stupidity.

I had a plan B if I failed and I almost had to pull the ripcord on plan A but I pulled it off.



Young at Heart said:


> First I think that every man should be made to read Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy.


I forced myself to read through this because it was referenced in Dead Bedroom Fix in case there was anything in the full book which was different than the summary.

I couldn’t really recognize those traits in myself.

I don’t disagree that if someone is having problems they should read it as a “just in case”.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rus47 said:


> But see, that is 80% of the women using that app. What are attributes of women using an ap to try to get a date? So maybe 80% of THOSE women require a man to be over 6' before they will date them. Maybe 80% of the men using the ap will only date women with D cups or larger weighing less than 130 lb. People can want whatever, but unless 80% of the opposite gender meets the criteria it ain't gonna happen.
> 
> I had never even heard of "red pill" until visited TAM. Had to look it up to find out what that was all about. Rather astounding. I don't believe any of it. Never met any man irl who did. At the end of the day the average man and average woman are well "average". And both genders ultimately end up living average lives. Most people didn't select their mate using an ap.


Those 80% of women using OLD, who are getting banged by the same few guys remind me of a bunch of cows servicing a couple of bulls.

Not a very attractive lot.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Numb26 said:


> Actually, he is correct. In most cases there is an element of danger in even approaching a woman, especially in certain scenarios. It's not worth losing what you have worked hard for just to chat up some woman who may be an angry feminist.


The purple, blue or pink hair is usually a dead giveaway.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Those 80% of women using OLD, who are getting banged by the same few guys remind me of a bunch of cows servicing a couple of bulls.
> 
> Not a very attractive lot.


What I found about old was most of the women had no clue as to what their SMV was. Divorced, 2-3 kids in tow, 30 pounds of excess fat and they’re swiping on 8’s and 9’s. They won’t pay the least bit of attention to the 5’s that are orbiting. Yet the 5’s _should_ be their sweet spot.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

RebuildingMe said:


> What I found about old was most of the women had no clue as to what their SMV was. Divorced, 2-3 kids in tow, 30 pounds of excess fat and they’re swiping on 8’s and 9’s. They won’t pay the least bit of attention to the 5’s that are orbiting. Yet the 5’s _should_ be their sweet spot.


I would imagine that is slowly going away as more and more women (or just people in general) realize things don’t work that way. I think slowly but surely people are coming back to the realm of reality because it is clear as day that 3rd/4th wave feminism is a spectacular failure. 

I strongly believe my kids generation will be well educated in reality and take things back to a sense of what is normal.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

RebuildingMe said:


> What I found about old was most of the women had no clue as to what their SMV was. Divorced, 2-3 kids in tow, 30 pounds of excess fat and they’re swiping on 8’s and 9’s. They won’t pay the least bit of attention to the 5’s that are orbiting. Yet the 5’s _should_ be their sweet spot.


I think a lot of average younger women fall into this as well. I'm not an expert at all though as I'm just observing.

There seem to be a lot of women getting "ran through" during their twenties by a select few guys while ignoring the men that might wife them up instead of treating them like cows.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> Seriously?!? Men can't talk to women in public? My young male relatives spend all of their time doing exactly that. In the hallways at school, in the malls, at the 4bucks coffee place, in the park, where ever. And my older divorced male friends and relatives spend all of their time chatting up women where ever.
> 
> If they are "talking" with women online, they are barking up the wrong tree IMO.


Don't take my word for it, just read these forums. How many ladies here even have said they don't want guys talking to them at the gym or some other place? Go on any social media and you will find women making videos complaining about men talking to them when they are out. A lot of women say they do not like it and they will react negatively just because a guy said hi. It's a thing.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> Don't take my word for it, just read these forums. How many ladies here even have said they don't want guys talking to them at the gym or some other place? Go on any social media and you will find women making videos complaining about men talking to them when they are out. A lot of women say they do not like it and they will react negatively just because a guy said hi. It's a thing.


I think it's starting to be exposed. The over compensating metoo believe all women crap.

There was a recent video of a dipstick woman trying to get attention and then get offended at someone looking at her and she got expelled from a gym.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Enigma32 said:


> Don't take my word for it, just read these forums. How many ladies here even have said they don't want guys talking to them at the gym or some other place? Go on any social media and you will find women making videos complaining about men talking to them when they are out. A lot of women say they do not like it and they will react negatively just because a guy said hi. It's a thing.


I guess havent seen wonen writing that sort of thing on here. But take your word for it. IMO a lot of women posting here are pretty angry to start with, so wouldnt surprise if a male talking to them irl would p1ss them off. 

I am not on any SM on purpose, so again take your word for it.

Maybe another feature of our society disintegrating. I bet a lot of other societies on this planet have nothing like this. Seems a good way to remain single for life, not wanting to talk with opposite gender.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I have no fear about approaching women in real life. I’m an extrovert and can converse with anyone. I stay clear at work though. I would also stay clear of at least three women on TAM also 🤣


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

RebuildingMe said:


> I have no fear about approaching women in real life. I’m an extrovert and can converse with anyone. I stay clear at work though. I would also stay clear of at least three women on TAM also 🤣


I wouldn't but I actually don't mind pissing off women. If I'm not making some lady mad somewhere, I would need to hand in my barbarian card 😎


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

RebuildingMe said:


> I have no fear about approaching women in real life. I’m an extrovert and can converse with anyone.


How else can people get to know one another? We are social creatures who need connection with others. Avoiding conversation seems like a way to be a miserable lonely life. 

And being angry all of the time about everything is a good way to have people avoid having any dealings.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> I would imagine that is slowly going away as more and more women (or just people in general) realize things don’t work that way. I think slowly but surely people are coming back to the realm of reality because it is clear as day that 3rd/4th wave feminism is a spectacular failure.
> 
> I strongly believe my kids generation will be well educated in reality and take things back to a sense of what is normal.


It’s like they are walking into a BMW dealership with 40k to spend. Then, when they’re told they can’t afford the car, they waddle into work on Monday morning and bi|[tch to their female coworkers that they can’t find a good car.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> I guess havent seen wonen writing that sort of thing on here. But take your word for it. IMO a lot of women posting here are pretty angry to start with, so wouldnt surprise if a male talking to them irl would p1ss them off.
> 
> I am not on any SM on purpose, so again take your word for it.
> 
> Maybe another feature of our society disintegrating. I bet a lot of other societies on this planet have nothing like this. Seems a good way to remain single for life, not wanting to talk with opposite gender.


It's mostly America and parts of Europe that this crap is happening


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Enigma32 said:


> OLD has gone from something fringe back in my younger days, to the norm today. It's considered impolite to talk to women almost anywhere else, so men use OLD or social media to do it. And if you see how that goes for most of them, you can start to understand "the ugly truth" this thread is all about.


Where are you getting the idea that it's impolite to talk to women in public? What scenarios is it impolite?


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

Enigma32 said:


> Don't take my word for it, just read these forums. How many ladies here even have said they don't want guys talking to them at the gym or some other place? Go on any social media and you will find women making videos complaining about men talking to them when they are out. A lot of women say they do not like it and they will react negatively just because a guy said hi. It's a thing.


The SNL skit where Mr. Handsome gets to flirt, but Mr. Unattractive gets reported to HR just for saying hi is very much a real thing.

I think that it is built into the female to do this, as part of her selection process and is often unaware that she might not be aware that she is doing it.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

Rus47 said:


> But see, that is 80% of the women using that app. What are attributes of women using an ap to try to get a date? So maybe 80% of THOSE women require a man to be over 6' before they will date them. Maybe 80% of the men using the ap will only date women with D cups or larger weighing less than 130 lb. People can want whatever, but unless 80% of the opposite gender meets the criteria it ain't gonna happen.
> 
> I had never even heard of "red pill" until visited TAM. Had to look it up to find out what that was all about. Rather astounding. I don't believe any of it. Never met any man irl who did. At the end of the day the average man and average woman are well "average". And both genders ultimately end up living average lives. Most people didn't select their mate using an ap.


Real facts and you can check this out yourself.
Surveys have been conducted on dating apps and dating sites.
100% of the women, even average women are aiming for only 20% of the men, mostly the Chads and Tyrones or known as alpha males. The other 80% of average men are ignored. Scores of videos regarding this subject on YouTube.
Another survey was conducted regarding the dating and hookup app, Tinder. It was estimated that 40% of those using that app, both men and women are already in relationships or married.
And yes, regardless how couples meet, eventually they will end up being a Mr and Mrs Average.
My maternal grandfather I considered a wise man. Let me tell you a story he told me:
"A young couple on their wedding day were given a large empty whiskey bottle.
They were told each time they made love for the first two years of their marriage, to put a penny coin into the bottle and then after two years to take a penny coin out the bottle each time they made love.
He said; "they`ll never empty the whisky bottle of those coins for the remainder of their married lives"
Very true in most cases..


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> The SNL skit where Mr. Handsome gets to flirt, but Mr. Unattractive gets reported to HR just for saying hi is very much a real thing.
> 
> I think that it is built into the female to do this, as part of her selection process and is often unaware that she might not be aware that she is doing it.





EleGirl said:


> Where are you getting the idea that it's impolite to talk to women in public? What scenarios is it impolite?


See above. Also, there are tons of videos online of women complaining about being catcalled. Or being pestered at the gym, etc. If you even dare to LOOK at a woman at the gym, you run the risk of being publicly shamed for it, and this is when ladies are half naked while they work out. There are so many rules on when and how to talk to women that a lot of younger, less savy guys probably don't bother. I'm sure some charming or older guys will swear it isn't like that, and for us maybe it isn't. Just think about what you have read on here. I always advise people to try chatting women up in public but everyone is hesitant. There is a clear message out there that women do not want to be bothered. So men don't bother them.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

Enigma32 said:


> See above. Also, there are tons of videos online of women complaining about being catcalled. Or being pestered at the gym, etc. There are so many rules on when and how to talk to women that a lot of younger, less savy guys probably don't bother. I'm sure some charming or older guys will swear it isn't like that, and for us maybe it isn't. Just think about what you have read on here. I always advise people to try chatting women up in public but everyone is hesitant. There is a clear message out there that women do not want to be bothered. So men don't bother them.


I've read that it is actually the woman who generally makes the first move, but it isn't obvious. She will do things like always be where her desired amour is or her body language will suggest being open with him or just how she treats will be better than how she treats other males.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Enigma32 said:


> See above. Also, there are tons of videos online of women complaining about being catcalled.


Catcalling is not talking to a woman. Very often when guys catcall it seems a lot more like they are showing off to the male friends they are with. But yea, most women do not like catcalling because it often becomes aggressive and even dangerous.



Enigma32 said:


> Or being pestered at the gym, etc. There are so many rules on when and how to talk to women that a lot of younger, less savy guys probably don't bother. I'm sure some charming or older guys will swear it isn't like that, and for us maybe it isn't. Just think about what you have read on here. I always advise people to try chatting women up in public but everyone is hesitant. There is a clear message out there that women do not want to be bothered. So men don't bother them.


So, this is not about just talking to women, it's about talking to women to try to pick them up. If your wife was working out at a gym, how would you expect her to handle it. Should she have a conversation with him? Are you ok with her having a conversation with a man who is clearly flirting with her and trying to pick her up?


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

Enigma32 said:


> See above. Also, there are tons of videos online of women complaining about being catcalled. Or being pestered at the gym, etc. If you even dare to LOOK at a woman at the gym, you run the risk of being publicly shamed for it, and this is when ladies are half naked while they work out. There are so many rules on when and how to talk to women that a lot of younger, less savy guys probably don't bother. I'm sure some charming or older guys will swear it isn't like that, and for us maybe it isn't. Just think about what you have read on here. I always advise people to try chatting women up in public but everyone is hesitant. There is a clear message out there that women do not want to be bothered. So men don't bother them.


Going back to the 1930s, pre-war London on a cold winter`s day, my great uncle was waiting at a bus stop for a bus. 2 persons in front of him in the queue, he noticed a beautiful young lady shivering from the cold. My uncle took off his overcoat, walked up to the young lady and wrapped his coat around her. The bus arrived and both my uncle and the young lady got on the bus and were travelling in the same direction. They sat next to each other and started to chat. My uncle and the young lady cliqued together and arranged to date and meet the following day. The young lady had reached her destination and had to get off the bus. She went to give my uncle back his coat and he told her, return it to me tomorrow on our date. So they dated the next day, then a couple of days after that and continued to date. Soon they fell in love and married. My uncle and the lady were married for 67 years, had 5 children together, grandchildren and great grandchildren. When my uncle died in 2000, his wife died 5 months later, they couldn`t live without each other. I guess if a guy done this today he would be considered as some kind of male predator. 
A sad sign of the times.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> Catcalling is not talking to a woman. Very often when guys catcall it seems a lot more like they are showing off to the male friends they are with. But yea, most women do not like catcalling because it often becomes aggressive and even dangerous.


Catcalling is also just saying hello. Have you seen the woman who made a video of her walking around NYC just to complain about the men daring to say hi?



> So, this is not about just talking to women, it's about talking to women to try to pick them up. If your wife was working out at a gym, how would you expect her to handle it. Should she have a conversation with him? Are you ok with her having a conversation with a man who is clearly flirting with her and trying to pick her up?


My wife won't go to the gym without me and if she does, she won't be half naked. Just not how she is. If someone did talk to her, she would ignore them. Still better than being publicly shamed for just looking. That's a new trend by the way, women who work out at the gym and record men for looking at them so they can post it online and make fun of them. Those guys don't even need to say hi.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

gameopoly5 said:


> Going back to the 1930s, pre-war London on a cold winter`s day, my great uncle was waiting at a bus stop for a bus. 2 persons in front of him in the queue, he noticed a beautiful young lady shivering from the cold. My uncle took off his overcoat, walked up to the young lady and wrapped his coat around her. The bus arrived and both my uncle and the young lady got on the bus and were travelling in the same direction. They sat next to each other and started to chat. My uncle and the young lady cliqued together and arranged to date and meet the following day. The young lady had reached her destination and had to get off the bus. She went to give my uncle back his coat and he told her, return it to me tomorrow on our date. So they dated the next day, then a couple of days after that and continued to date. Soon they fell in love and married. My uncle and the lady were married for 67 years, had 5 children together, grandchildren and great grandchildren. When my uncle died in 2000, his wife died 5 months later, they couldn`t live without each other. I guess if a guy done this today he would be considered as some kind of male predator.
> A sad sign of the times.


Oh, good Lord, saying that if that happened today, he'd be considered a male predator is way over the top. If a guy did that today, she could choose to react as your aunt did, or if she could tell him thanks but no. I have young male and female relatives who meet members of the opposite sex in school, at work, and in public places and sometimes they get along, end up dating. And in some cases, they have married.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> I've read that it is actually the woman who generally makes the first move, but it isn't obvious. She will do things like always be where her desired amour is or her body language will suggest being open with him or just how she treats will be better than how she treats other males.


This has been my experience. I am 43 and I spent my early 20's always trying to talk to women. If you know what to look for, you can usually spot when your approach will be welcome. That's not always an easy thing to do though.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

gameopoly5 said:


> Going back to the 1930s, pre-war London on a cold winter`s day, my great uncle was waiting at a bus stop for a bus. 2 persons in front of him in the queue, he noticed a beautiful young lady shivering from the cold. *My uncle took off his overcoat, walked up to the young lady and wrapped his coat around her. *The bus arrived and both my uncle and the young lady got on the bus and were travelling in the same direction. They sat next to each other and started to chat. My uncle and the young lady cliqued together and arranged to date and meet the following day. The young lady had reached her destination and had to get off the bus. She went to give my uncle back his coat and he told her, return it to me tomorrow on our date. So they dated the next day, then a couple of days after that and continued to date. Soon they fell in love and married. My uncle and the lady were married for 67 years, had 5 children together, grandchildren and great grandchildren. When my uncle died in 2000, his wife died 5 months later, they couldn`t live without each other. I guess if a guy done this today he would be considered as some kind of male predator.
> A sad sign of the times.





EleGirl said:


> Oh, good Lord, saying that if that happened today, he'd be considered a male predator is way over the top. If a guy did that today, she could choose to react as your aunt did, or if she could tell him thanks but no. I have young male and female relatives who meet members of the opposite sex in school, at work, and in public places and sometimes they get along, end up dating. And in some cases, they have married.


In the story above, the man walked up and presumably touched this woman without her consent. Is that advice you would give men in 2022?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Enigma32 said:


> Catcalling is also just saying hello. Have you seen the woman who made a video of her walking around NYC just to complain about the men daring to say hi?


I've seen a couple of videos like that. Yea, catcalling is annoying.

Say a woman is walking to work or school in a big city and several times on every block guys are catcalling, etc. Do you really think that's what she wants? It's really not flattering. She's just wants to get to her destination and get on with her day.

When I was younger, there were guys who catcalled and then start following me, and it's scarry. I've had some of them grab me by the arm. 

One time there were two guys who started catcalling me and a female friend I was walking with. The two guys started to follow us, saying all sorts of "catcalling" type things to us. Then they started walking around us, getting in our faces, etc.

There was another time when a truck was driving slowly next to me, catcalling. Then the guy in the passenger seat opened the door, they sped up and tried to hit me with the door.



Enigma32 said:


> My wife won't go to the gym without me and if she does, she won't be half naked. Just not how she is. If someone did talk to her, she would ignore them. Still better than being publicly shamed for just looking. That's a new trend by the way, women who work out at the gym and record men for looking at them so they can post it online and make fun of them. Those guys don't even need to say hi.


So, some very small percentage of women who work out at gyms take videos of guys trying to hit on them and post the videos on social media? And that means that all men can't talk to women in public places? The vast majority of women who go to work out at gyms aren't taking videos of men looking at them.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

Enigma32 said:


> In the story above, the man walked up and presumably touched this woman without her consent. Is that advice you would give men in 2022?


Thank you for this post because you have confirmed what I`ve been saying, completely.
My uncle did not help the woman as an excuse to touch her inappropriately, it was an act of chivalry, like the knight going to help a damsel in distress. Today the age of chivalry is dead thanks to those with the holier than thou attitudes like yours.
Another point, as an older guy I`d be cautious if approaching and talking to kids when out, even if concerned a child was injured or lost, worried I be perceived as potential pedophile. 
As I said, a sad sign of the times.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

gameopoly5 said:


> My maternal grandfather I considered a wise man. Let me tell you a story he told me:
> "A young couple on their wedding day were given a large empty whiskey bottle.
> They were told each time they made love for the first two years of their marriage, to put a penny coin into the bottle and then after two years to take a penny coin out the bottle each time they made love.
> He said; "they`ll never empty the whisky bottle of those coins for the remainder of their married lives"
> Very true in most cases..


Perhaps your maternal grandfather was doing it wrong.

Since it's really not that difficult for a man to help maintain a long running, splendidly rich, marital sex life. All it takes is being good at sex, while not being boring. Combined with having some charm, mixed in with a little ribald behaviour.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> I've seen a couple of videos like that. Yea, catcalling is annoying.
> 
> Say a woman is walking to work or school in a big city and several times on every block guys are catcalling, etc. Do you really think that's what she wants? It's really not flattering. She's just wants to get to her destination and get on with her day.
> 
> ...


It's a case of the people who scream the loudest getting the most attention. Every woman doesn't need to shame men for looking at or talking to them, but when it does happen, that crap blows uppppp. The ladies get support for it too, with other women piling on about how the guy was creepy and everything else. So, just as you don't like catcalling because of the poor behavior of a few men, many men won't talk to women so much now because of the poor behavior of a few women.

As to catcalling, I bet if it all disappeared, many women would be upset. Maybe you don't like the scary ones, or any of them, but I've seen a lot of women smile and brag to their friends too. I think a lot of the ones doing the shaming also like the ego boost, they just have such little respect for the men that they repay them by shaming them.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Enigma32 said:


> In the story above, the man walked up and presumably touched this woman without her consent. Is that advice you would give men in 2022?


In that case we have a story being told by someone who was not there. My bet is that there was some kind of body language and maybe even some words said between them with her signaling that it was ok before he put the coat on her. It was not ok back then for a man to touch a woman without her consent.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> I've seen a couple of videos like that. Yea, catcalling is annoying.
> 
> Say a woman is walking to work or school in a big city and several times on every block guys are catcalling, etc. Do you really think that's what she wants? It's really not flattering. She's just wants to get to her destination and get on with her day.
> 
> ...


Interesting. 

Usually I'm on board with you Elegirl. Some of what you are saying makes sense. The exceptionally aggressive cat callers are uncalled for. Sorry you had to deal with that. 

The rest of your points are..... more "modern" feminist points. Most of which will not land with a lot of men. Those points are a bit excessive and most men's eyes will glaze over as we've been beaten into the ground since birth about them. 

I was hoping you'd respond to the points made about what is and isn't allowed for men due to their attractiveness levels. It's very obvious to most men that physically attractive men can get away with saying anything (even aggressive catcalling), but if an average man does it, HR or the police are called. 

Now, this actually doesn't bother me. I get it. There's nothing wrong with people being attracted to each other. There is also nothing wrong with some people being exceptionally attractive and as such, get to live life in a better position than others. 

That's not the point. 

The point is that for many women (not all), the points you made tonight do not matter one bit if it involves an attractive man - so many men just want the actual honest answer. Say something like this instead - cat calling is annoying, unless you are attractive. Then it is completely acceptable. 

I'm mostly curious if you will address that point, and yes, most men witness exactly what I just said above.


----------



## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Usually I'm on board with you Elegirl. Some of what you are saying makes sense. The exceptionally aggressive cat callers are uncalled for. Sorry you had to deal with that.
> 
> ...


As I said, since I believe this is nature of women, it is nothing to get mad about either. It helps explain why every man here says it is a thing, but every woman here says it is not, because they aren't necessarily aware that they are doing it 

The trade-off is that the average man can live just live for himself and not be concerned about the responsibility of creating a home for anybody else.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Usually I'm on board with you Elegirl. Some of what you are saying makes sense. The exceptionally aggressive cat callers are uncalled for. Sorry you had to deal with that.


I only post a couple of things that happened that were scary. Could write pages about it. In 2015 I decided to walk the 4 miles home from work every day to get the exercise. After about a week of it I had to stop because of the aggressiveness of some men along the route. And again, there are plenty more situations.



LATERILUS79 said:


> The rest of your points are..... more "modern" feminist points. Most of which will not land with a lot of men. Those points are a bit excessive and most men's eyes will glaze over as we've been beaten into the ground since birth about them.


What points of mine were "more modern feminist points"?



LATERILUS79 said:


> I was hoping you'd respond to the points made about what is and isn't allowed for men due to their attractiveness levels. It's very obvious to most men that physically attractive men can get away with saying anything (even aggressive catcalling), but if an average man does it, HR or the police are called.
> 
> Now, this actually doesn't bother me. I get it. There's nothing wrong with people being attracted to each other. There is also nothing wrong with some people being exceptionally attractive and as such, get to live life in a better position than others.
> 
> That's not the point.


I suppose that some women might only be interested in men who would be labeled as a 10. It's a lot like how some men are only interested in women they label as 10's. 

When it comes to calling HR or the police, I guess I'd be interested in specific situations. 

It's very clear from what we see on TAM that there are plenty of men and women who meet each other at work and end up in affairs with each other. I'll bet that the men are not all 10's. I've been aware of affairs at work and affairs with women I knew, and the men were not all 10's. Not by a long shot.


LATERILUS79 said:


> The point is that for many women (not all), the points you made tonight do not matter one bit if it involves an attractive man - so many men just want the actual honest answer. Say something like this instead - cat calling is annoying, unless you are attractive. Then it is completely acceptable.


Yea there probably are some women who don't mind catcalling from guys who are very attractive. I'm not one of them. To me the attractiveness of a man does not matter to me when it comes to things like catcalling. I can only speak for myself.

To me a man's attractiveness relies very heavily on his personality, morals, etc. I've known extremely classically good-looking men who I found repulsive because of what they were like.



LATERILUS79 said:


> I'm mostly curious if you will address that point, and yes, most men witness exactly what I just said above.


'
Again, I'm sure that there are women who are only interested in men who's physical and facial features would be measured as "10". And again, there are men who are like this about women as well. Shoot, go to the manosphere and they talk about ranking women and only talking to and dating women who are 9's and 10's.

On the point of SOME women only accepting attention (catcalling, etc) from men they rank as 10, sure, there are shallow women.

Also, read the book "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". It talks about the interactions between men and women. One of the points made in the book is that a man should not approach a woman who does not first give him "the look". Basically, it's a silent signal that she's interested. Perhaps the problem being talked about here is that a lot of guys are unaware of this. So, they don't read body language and non-verbal communication from a woman very well. And because of this they approach women who are not interested.... regardless of what the guy looks like. 

If a married women is at a gym working out, how is she supposed to respond to some guy who comes up and starts flirting with her? She would most likely just do what was needed to cut it short. If the guy persists, what's she supposed to do?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> As I said, since I believe this is nature of women, it is nothing to get mad about either. It helps explain why every man here says it is a thing, but every woman here says it is not, because they aren't necessarily aware that they are doing it
> 
> The trade-off is that the average man can live just live for himself and not be concerned about the responsibility of creating a home for anybody else.


Strange reaction.

I see married couples all over the place. In most cases the men are average looking men as are the women. They often have children with them. It's pretty clear that a LOT of women are dating and even marrying average looking men.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

EleGirl said:


> Strange reaction.
> 
> I see married couples all over the place. In most cases the men are average looking men as are the women. They often have children with them. It's pretty clear that a LOT of women are dating and even marrying average looking men.


What is strange about my reaction about an observable human behaviour?

I do appreciate the caution that women must exercise when some men try and talk to her. I can easily post a dozen pages of links of women having been killed in the last few years because the guy couldnt handle rejection. 

I view things in terms of economics. If a man, or woman, is on the unwanted side of their ability to date, it can be a blessing. Their time is their time and they owe that time to nobody.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I’m not sure what you guys are talking about because it is easy as can be to chat up women here in Texas.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

Personal said:


> Perhaps your maternal grandfather was doing it wrong.
> 
> Since it's really not that difficult for a man to help maintain a long running, splendidly rich, marital sex life. All it takes is being good at sex, while not being boring. Combined with having some charm, mixed in with a little ribald behaviour.


Totally agree.
My wife has told me, if I can`t raise it any more or do the deed without jollity and our s*x life becomes boring, she`ll trade me in for another guy who is more up to the job.
And who could blame her?


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

gameopoly5 said:


> Real facts and you can check this out yourself.
> Surveys have been conducted on dating apps and dating sites.
> 100% of the women, even average women are aiming for only 20% of the men, mostly the Chads and Tyrones or known as alpha males. The other 80% of average men are ignored. Scores of videos regarding this subject on YouTube.
> Another survey was conducted regarding the dating and hookup app, Tinder. It was estimated that 40% of those using that app, both men and women are already in relationships or married.
> ...


I have heard the joke about the bottle and pennies nearly my whole life. Thankfully it hasn't been my experience. I dated and married a girl who has always been very much into intimacy with me. If we had put a pennies into the bottle we would have gone broke the first two years, but we could have gotten all of our money back in the next two. 

And judging from other posters on here, my experience is not unique. 

Regarding the OLD thing, I have no doubt what you say is true regarding their surveys. But that is still subset of all people of both genders. IMO seeking a mate on the internet is on a fools errand.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> Catcalling is not talking to a woman. Very often when guys catcall it seems a lot more like they are showing off to the male friends they are with. But yea, most women do not like catcalling because it often becomes aggressive and even dangerous.


Exactly! I thought the statement was that talking wasnt appreciated. For sure catcalling and harassment is unwelcome understandably. 

But just talking to someone about activity both are engaged in is surely not offensive to anyone. That is what humans do, chatter about what they are seeing or doing. While jogging, commenting about how high the humidity is, fishing about how they bit better the day before.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Usually I'm on board with you Elegirl. Some of what you are saying makes sense. The exceptionally aggressive cat callers are uncalled for. Sorry you had to deal with that.
> 
> ...


I think catcalling is generally stupid and unwanted.

I believe you are correct that some women will forgive the rudeness if it's a hunk doing the calling.

As far as attractive men having far more open doors for conversations with women.... of course and everyone knows it.

Unattractive women have a lot of closed doors to deal with too however.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I only post a couple of things that happened that were scary. Could write pages about it. In 2015 I decided to walk the 4 miles home from work every day to get the exercise. After about a week of it I had to stop because of the aggressiveness of some men along the route. And again, there are plenty more situations.
> 
> 
> What points of mine were "more modern feminist points"?
> ...


I mostly agree with the content here but there does seem to be an increasing trend of average women overlooking average men. It is measurable on OLD but I'm hoping the women there don't represent a significant percentage of the female population.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mr.Married said:


> I’m not sure what you guys are talking about because it is easy as can be to chat up women here in Texas.


Now that's a fact. Try to get out of it!😆


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I mostly agree with the content here but there does seem to be an increasing trend of average women overlooking average men. It is measurable on OLD but I'm hoping the women there don't represent a significant percentage of the female population.


If the average women are overlooking the average men, and only showing interest in the above average men, are they having success with the above average looking men? 

If the above average men didn't connect with the average looking women - then, having no success, the average women would start paying attention to the average men. 

Isn't the core problem the average women are actually having great success with the above average men? 

Why aren't the above average men ignoring the average women?


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

Livvie said:


> If the average women are overlooking the average men, and only showing interest in the above average men, are they having success with the above average looking men?
> 
> If the above average men didn't connect with the average looking women - then, having no success, the average women would start paying attention to the average men.
> 
> ...


Because sometimes you want to have sex without having to show your plumage.

The average woman feels flattered she's getting attention from an above average guy.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Livvie said:


> If the average women are overlooking the average men, and only showing interest in the above average men, are they having success with the above average looking men?
> 
> If the above average men didn't connect with the average looking women - then, having no success, the average women would start paying attention to the average men.
> 
> ...


The average women, at least the 80% or so on OLD, are being used for sex a plenty by a small percentage of above average men for sure. Just for sex. They are under the illusion that they are something other than a bunch of cows getting plowed by a couple of bulls.

They won't be wifed up by those few guys and in most cases not even reach girlfriend status.


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

Livvie said:


> If the average women are overlooking the average men, and only showing interest in the above average men, are they having success with the above average looking men?
> 
> If the above average men didn't connect with the average looking women - then, having no success, the average women would start paying attention to the average men.
> 
> ...


The average woman is very successful in getting sex from the above average man, but that man has a harem on call, until he settles down with an above average looking woman.

In the mean time, the average man is completely overlooked by the average woman, actually simply by women in general, while Chad and Tyrone is having their way.

Mr. Average is lonely, sees women swarming to Chad, Tyrone etc. while he is a non-entity in the eyes of womenhood, gets bitter and swears off women and relationships.

Once the average woman realizes she was only being used for sex by Chad, Tyrone, Roger, Pavlo and all the rest of the above average men, she is in her 30's and she realizes this because her looks are fading and the above Average men are now passing her over for younger models.

Lucy Average is used for sex, but will never lock down one of these guys in a relationship.

Now Lucy Average feels her biological clock ticking and wants a baby or wants a stable man to stand in for Chad's, Tyrone's and Rodger's babies she had out of wedlock.

Now all of a sudden Mr. Average is good enough. Well, many Mr. Averages are now saying: "If we weren't good enough before, we're not good enough now and we're not investing our recourses into raising Chad's spawn", or are simply settled and happy bachelors.

Mr. Average was lonely and sex starved from day 1, Lucy Average was getting used (by her own choice) by Chad, Tyrone et al and likely had a kid or two out of wedlock or the confines of a secure relationship.

Now that Mr. Average will no longer pick up the cheque for the fun that was had by Lucy Average in her youth, she becomes bitter in old age.

The principle of family and the values it secured is lost in the process and bitter men and women start pointing fingers at each other in a failing society.

All this because OLD gave Chad and Mr. Above-Average access to a harem of willing women which he used at leisure and Lucy Average decided that attention and sex with a big dog is better for her in her youth than actually locking down a good man who is not outside of her league.

That's the story in a nutshell.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

Dictum Veritas said:


> The average woman is very successful in getting sex from the above average man, but that man has a harem on call, until he settles down with an above average looking woman.
> 
> In the mean time, the average man is completely overlooked by the average woman, actually simply by women in general, while Chad and Tyrone is having their way.
> 
> ...


Or he's focusing on the women in their twenties himself, because he's worked himself into position of having some resources, so he wants to live like he's in his twenties when he didn't have the opportunity because he was overlooked. So, he ain't making himself available for any serious relationship with a woman his own age.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

I learned at an early age that level 10 men can be pretty crappy people so a level ten guy catcalling puts me on guard. Women are expected to be classy on the streets but a freak in the sheets, I hold the same standards to men. Cat calling is just simply immature and not attractive. Be the grown man you are and approach her properly.

I don’t know what level I would be considered for my age range but men don’t approach me and I find that very disappointing because I’m a very friendly person and would definitely talk to men in the grocery store or at the gas station or the beach or wherever. So I have definitely noticed men’s lack of initiative in this area but for me it comes off as weakness. I would have a ton of respect for a man who would approach me and strike up a conversation if he was interested.

As to the gym those are known as cesspools for sex and cheating so I don’t think that example really works for this conversation.


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## gameopoly5 (5 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> The average women, at least the 80% or so on OLD, are being used for sex a plenty by a small percentage of above average men for sure. Just for sex. They are under the illusion that they are something other than a bunch of cows getting plowed by a couple of bulls.
> 
> They won't be wifed up by those few guys and in most cases not even reach girlfriend status.


Spot on the mark.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Maybe it’s not so convoluted. Maybe women like the men they like and vice versa. This SMV / stay in your lane “ harem” crap really just sounds like bitter people *****ing they can’t find anyone. Why do we have to label and judge? So some random dude thinks I’m to ugly for my husband , so what? Is the assumption someone slightly better looking has to be screwing around? Btw I think dh and I are well matched and neither settled.
The attitude that women over inflate their worth and they should realize they aren’t all that is ridiculous. Now there should be looks based parameters set by who exactly?
I also think men over inflate their attractiveness in their mind and do not want average women. They want the size zero D cup women who don’t want comb over chuck which pisses the guy off.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

snowbum said:


> Maybe it’s not so convoluted. Maybe women like the men they like and vice versa. This SMV / stay in your lane “ harem” crap really just sounds like bitter people *****ing they can’t find anyone. Why do we have to label and judge? So some random dude thinks I’m to ugly for my husband , so what? Is the assumption someone slightly better looking has to be screwing around? Btw I think dh and I are well matched and neither settled.
> The attitude that women over inflate their worth and they should realize they aren’t all that is ridiculous. Now there should be looks based parameters set by who exactly?
> I also think men over inflate their attractiveness in their mind and do not want average women. They want the size zero D cup women who don’t want comb over chuck which pisses the guy off.


If that keeps you warm at night.
However, in the real world, the men who might have dated that now thirty year old woman aren't, because they don't want to date somebody who rejected them in their 20s. 
For many women, their thirties are a lost decade because they didn't use their twenties to get married and they are now having to compete for the available men against the women who are still in their twenties.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

snowbum said:


> Maybe it’s not so convoluted. Maybe women like the men they like and vice versa. This SMV / stay in your lane “ harem” crap really just sounds like bitter people *****ing they can’t find anyone. Why do we have to label and judge? So some random dude thinks I’m to ugly for my husband , so what? Is the assumption someone slightly better looking has to be screwing around? Btw I think dh and I are well matched and neither settled.
> The attitude that women over inflate their worth and they should realize they aren’t all that is ridiculous. Now there should be looks based parameters set by who exactly?
> I also think men over inflate their attractiveness in their mind and do not want average women. They want the size zero D cup women who don’t want comb over chuck which pisses the guy off.


We are actually discussing very measurable facts about a large group of women using OLD.

I'm just hoping they do not represent a significant percentage of the whole population.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

snowbum said:


> Maybe it’s not so convoluted. Maybe women like the men they like and vice versa. This SMV / stay in your lane “ harem” crap really just sounds like bitter people *****ing they can’t find anyone. Why do we have to label and judge? So some random dude thinks I’m to ugly for my husband , so what? Is the assumption someone slightly better looking has to be screwing around? Btw I think dh and I are well matched and neither settled.
> The attitude that women over inflate their worth and they should realize they aren’t all that is ridiculous. Now there should be looks based parameters set by who exactly?
> I also think men over inflate their attractiveness in their mind and do not want average women. They want the size zero D cup women who don’t want comb over chuck which pisses the guy off.


The red pill movement is encouraging men to be bitter and hate women the same way the far left loony feminists are encouraging women to be bitter and hate men.

Luckily there are plenty of normal people in the middle. Women who love and appreciate their husbands for who they are and men who don’t need a woman to grovel and cower to feel “manly.”

The far edge extremes of everything are always full of crazies.


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

snowbum said:


> Maybe it’s not so convoluted. Maybe women like the men they like and vice versa. This SMV / stay in your lane “ harem” crap really just sounds like bitter people *****ing they can’t find anyone. Why do we have to label and judge? So some random dude thinks I’m to ugly for my husband , so what? Is the assumption someone slightly better looking has to be screwing around? Btw I think dh and I are well matched and neither settled.
> The attitude that women over inflate their worth and they should realize they aren’t all that is ridiculous. Now there should be looks based parameters set by who exactly?
> I also think men over inflate their attractiveness in their mind and do not want average women. They want the size zero D cup women who don’t want comb over chuck which pisses the guy off.


No actually not [just bitter men] (because you used words from my post, I'd use my life to highlight). I'm old now, but in my more youthful days I was genetically gifted to attract the attention of the ladies.

I couldn't understand why my friends grew resentful around me because women came up to me. So, bitter, no, I was benefitting from this quirk in female nature.

In the mean time, I matured and have been able to place myself in the shoes of the guys around me who were overlooked and I can understand why they would be bitter.

In my day, we still met people in person, therefore in any given room, Mr. Average could have had the chance to be in the top 20% of men present and stood a chance, but if the room is the world as it is with OLD, I can very much sympathize with Mr. Average and his resentment for being effectively a non-entity for women.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> The average women, at least the 80% or so on OLD, are being used for sex a plenty by a small percentage of above average men for sure. Just for sex. They are under the illusion that they are something other than a bunch of cows getting plowed by a couple of bulls.
> 
> They won't be wifed up by those few guys and in most cases not even reach girlfriend status.


In that case, those women are idiots with no self respect and I’d bet these “above average” men are looking specifically for these types of women anyway so which is worse?

And what is above average anyway?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Not said:


> In that case, those women are idiots with no self respect and I’d bet these “above average” men are looking specifically for these types of women anyway so which is worse?
> 
> And what is above average anyway?


Oh, I have no high opinion of the men using them and they do target them for the very easy sex.

Above average is the best looking guys. 

Tall, fit, handsome to downright pretty men and many with fair resources.

I'm not defending anyone involved and it turns my stomach but it is what's happening.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Not sure why these super hot guys are online to begin with is sex is so easy for them they gave more than need in real life. Also don’t know many of these dumb women lining up to be used and toyed with. Many people aren’t fans of being suckered. I’m frankly tired of bitter uncle type men blaming women and blaming everyone else.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Oh, I have no high opinion of the men using them and they do target them for the very easy sex.
> 
> Above average is the best looking guys.
> 
> ...


I know this is happening on OLD because I see it but a ton of other people see it too and try to steer clear from it. Not all of us are falling for the head games.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

snowbum said:


> Not sure why these super hot guys are online to begin with is sex is so easy for them they gave more than need in real life. Also don’t know many of these dumb women lining up to be used and toyed with. Many people aren’t fans of being suckered. I’m frankly tired of bitter uncle type men blaming women and blaming everyone else.


We know you're tired. LoL!😉

Try sleeping in.😋


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Not said:


> I know this is happening on OLD because I see it but a ton of other people see it too and try to steer clear from it. Not all of us are falling for the head games.


I was pretty sure that it was a certain group of woman and probably mostly confined to OLD.

I would advise single men to just get out of OLD for the most part anyway and let the hyenas and jackals eat each other. Naive younger women could use some education about it.

Not a game I would want to be playing.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

snowbum said:


> Not sure why these super hot guys are online to begin with is sex is so easy for them they gave more than need in real life. Also don’t know many of these dumb women lining up to be used and toyed with. Many people aren’t fans of being suckered. I’m frankly tired of bitter uncle type men blaming women and blaming everyone else.


That’s the thing though, on OLD the women toy with the men just as much. I’ve heard so many stories over the past 3 1/2 years from men who get led on by these women so I see why the men complain.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

snowbum said:


> They want the size zero D cup women who don’t want comb over chuck which pisses the guy off.


Now that is absolutely hilarious !!!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> I mostly agree with the content here but there does seem to be an increasing trend of average women overlooking average men. It is measurable on OLD but I'm hoping the women there don't represent a significant percentage of the female population.


OLD is a very limited environment. Most people I know, men and women, won't have anything to do with OLD anymore. If a person is active and does things they enjoy, they will meet single members of the opposite sex (or whatever sex they want to date). It works a lot better. At least that what I've been told by most of the single I talk to.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

EleGirl said:


> OLD is a very limited environment. Most people I know, men and women, won't have anything to do with OLD anymore. If a person is active and does things they enjoy, they will meet single members of the opposite sex (or whatever sex they want to date). It works a lot better. At least that what I've been told by most of the single I talk to.


I agree living the life that you want to life is really the first big step to finding like minded-people who will be compatible to you.


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> OLD is a very limited environment. Most people I know, men and women, won't have anything to do with OLD anymore. If a person is active and does things they enjoy, they will meet single members of the opposite sex (or whatever sex they want to date). It works a lot better. At least that what I've been told by most of the single I talk to.


I really hope this is true. OLD is a meat market that chews up the young and spits out warped people.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> OLD is a very limited environment. Most people I know, men and women, won't have anything to do with OLD anymore. If a person is active and does things they enjoy, they will meet single members of the opposite sex (or whatever sex they want to date). It works a lot better. At least that what I've been told by most of the single I talk to.


It’s so weird, we were talking to one of the young men that works in H’s office the other day about his social life and he said OLD is just bitter men looking for hookups and “anal retentive, angry, entitled women” looking for a money source. He’s so sweet and such a cute guy, he really tried but said the dates are like interviews and fully expected them to start asking for bank statements. Gross. He is also the one who characterized the dudes on there as “bitter and angry red pill types, all they want is a hookup and to treat women like trash.” He’s joined a running group and also a church singles group.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> I guess havent seen wonen writing that sort of thing on here. But take your word for it. IMO a lot of women posting here are pretty angry to start with, so wouldnt surprise if a male talking to them irl would p1ss them off.
> 
> I am not on any SM on purpose, so again take your word for it.
> 
> Maybe another feature of our society disintegrating. I bet a lot of other societies on this planet have nothing like this. Seems a good way to remain single for life, not wanting to talk with opposite gender.


There's so many generalizations on here about women. I'm just putting in my two cents worth. A lot of you have labeled me a man hater, but the truth is I get out in real life and talk to men and women all the time and I'm very comfortable doing it. And I get approached by all ages of men just to talk even though I'm an old really fat lady. This generation needs to wean themselves off the internet long enough to meet people in real life. For one thing it's a better class of people in general. For another thing they will be mostly local where you can actually get something started. And lastly if you meet them in real life they're not photoshopped. 

And then that would force some people to develop a good personality. Because you really can't fake that, and that will take you further than anything else in real life. 

Just a couple of days ago I had a fascinating conversation that was started with him approaching me in the parking lot at a grocery store. Turns out he is a cold case homicide detective. We talked for about 20 minutes. I'm 70 and fat. You people need to get out of the house and not wait until you have a date online set up before you do so.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> I've seen a couple of videos like that. Yea, catcalling is annoying.
> 
> Say a woman is walking to work or school in a big city and several times on every block guys are catcalling, etc. Do you really think that's what she wants? It's really not flattering. She's just wants to get to her destination and get on with her day.
> 
> ...


Cat calling isn't being friendly. It's an intimidation tactic and very rude and threatening and the guys doing it know it.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Enigma32 said:


> It's a case of the people who scream the loudest getting the most attention. Every woman doesn't need to shame men for looking at or talking to them, but when it does happen, that crap blows uppppp. The ladies get support for it too, with other women piling on about how the guy was creepy and everything else. So, just as you don't like catcalling because of the poor behavior of a few men, many men won't talk to women so much now because of the poor behavior of a few women.
> 
> As to catcalling, I bet if it all disappeared, many women would be upset. Maybe you don't like the scary ones, or any of them, but I've seen a lot of women smile and brag to their friends too. I think a lot of the ones doing the shaming also like the ego boost, they just have such little respect for the men that they repay them by shaming them.


There's not a woman on earth who would be sad to see cat calling gone forever.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Having never experienced online dating the whole concept seems revolting. Why wouldn’t you want her face to face? Why would you want a text when you could be interacting with a live woman? You can’t build a little bit of fun tension with context and inflection over a text. Maybe I’m too old. Oh hell I must be because I’m here on an Internet forum with the rest of you old farts who happen to be my age 😳


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

Mr.Married said:


> Having never experienced online dating the whole concept seems revolting. Why wouldn’t you want her face to face? Why would you want a text when you could be interacting with a live woman? You can’t build a little bit of fun tension with context and inflection over a text. Maybe I’m too old. Oh hell I must be because I’m here on an Internet forum with the rest of you old farts who happen to be my age 😳


Yep we old farts do spend a lot of time here, but there's a difference between a discussion and looking for a hookup, for let's face it I don't think many on OLD are really expecting love, just NSA fun with the slight hope of something more. That anyone would subject themselves to that with so little hope of a real connection, that is the part that disgusts me.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> There's not a woman on earth who would be sad to see cat calling gone forever.


Best case, it’s rude and classless. At worst, it’s a precursor to violence.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Best case, it’s rude and classless. At worst, it’s a precursor to violence.


Heeeerrreee kitty kitty …….

Just trying to uphold my reputation 😅


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Best case, it’s rude and classless. At worst, it’s a precursor to violence.


Catcalling, I've always seen men who do that as giving praise where none is deserved in a way that labels themselves as lesser cognitive humans.

It is on average, behavior common to those more prone to violence, but is of itself not an act of violence or a pre-cursor per-se. I once asked a guy why he did it, his answer, to fit in with the other guys (they were telecommunications line-technicians) There was no malice in him. I asked another one of the team and he said that the days work was routine and he was bored. Again, no malice of intent.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> I only post a couple of things that happened that were scary. Could write pages about it. In 2015 I decided to walk the 4 miles home from work every day to get the exercise. After about a week of it I had to stop because of the aggressiveness of some men along the route. And again, there are plenty more situations.
> 
> 
> What points of mine were "more modern feminist points"?
> ...


I’ve re-read your comments - I’ll take this moment to apologize and say that I was incorrect. Your previous points were not in the realm of modern feminist arguments. This was me projecting onto you assuming you were headed in that direction. My mistake. 

I think what I really wanted to get down to was more detail into exactly what it is you consider to be “cat-calling”. I think we can all agree that what happened in your stories was unacceptable and scary behavior and you should have never been subjected to such treatment. I’m sorry that happened to you. 

Then I think there is a grey area where there is “normal” behavior and what modern feminists will complain about. 

It is my understanding that any approach of a man (assuming he is not beautiful) is unacceptable and is considered cat-calling by the standards of today’s modern feminists. Side note - I would consider a man 8 and up to be beautiful. He doesn’t have to be a 10 like you mentioned earlier. 

I don’t think your standard of cat-calling reaches the insanity of modern feminism, nor do I think it needs to reach the depths of depravity of the actions taken towards you to still be considered cat-calling. So I am curious what would be your definition. 

You mentioned a book about women giving “the look” in order for a man to know that it is now acceptable for him to approach. 

I’m going to flat out say that I do not care about this “look”. Sorry, not sorry. It is my opinion that Most women know by the age of 30 or so (most of the time sooner) that men require a bit more brute force to get a point across. Playing with the 4th jewel on your necklace and rotating it in a clockwise fashion while glancing at a man once every hour is not going to register with many men as a way of saying, “you have my permission to approach”. 

Yes, I am exaggerating, but I do so to make a point. It is not fair to cut out all men from approaching just because they cannot pick up “the look” - ESPECIALLY when it is considered our job to make the first approach to begin with! You are essentially saying that we have to go into every situation with our hands tied behind our backs. That’s a low move, in my opinion. 

I am definitely one of those guys that has NO CLUE if a female is interested in me. It is my understanding that I am above average in the looks department and I have a lot of things going for me as being a very stable man - but the number of times over the years I will hear later from folks “hey, that gal was into you.”…. It’s been more than a few times. 

A shame really. Wish I would have shot my shot. I just didn’t know. Not the woman’s fault. It was mine - but when I do decide to shoot my shot, I would prefer just a simple “no” and not a call to HR or the cops. 

Which brings me to your next point. 

I see the same thing you see at work. What you most likely don’t see (because we all have our bias) is the number of times a man shoots his shot at work and then gets written up by HR. You don’t know because you aren’t in the group of men that are talking about how Jimmy got written up. There is a strong possibility that you heard from Susan that Jimmy was being a creep… simply for asking her out on a date. 


Now, as for persistent men that will not leave you alone - absolutely. You need to get some sort of authority involved. I would never want someone to be in danger because some aggressive asshole can’t stop himself.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Dictum Veritas said:


> No actually not [just bitter men] (because you used words from my post, I'd use my life to highlight). I'm old now, but in my more youthful days I was genetically gifted to attract the attention of the ladies.
> 
> I couldn't understand why my friends grew resentful around me because women came up to me. So, bitter, no, I was benefitting from this quirk in female nature.
> 
> ...


Why isn't Mr. Average resentful towards the #10 Chads who burned and used their way through tons of women?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Catcalling: (me) high school teen walking home from school on the main road and cars of men screaming continually out their car windows at me (what a ripe peach, etc.).

It made walking home from school a self conscious and hellish experience.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Dictum Veritas said:


> Catcalling, I've always seen men who do that as giving praise where none is deserved in a way that labels themselves as lesser cognitive humans.
> 
> It is on average, behavior common to those more prone to violence, but is of itself not an act of violence or a pre-cursor per-se. I once asked a guy why he did it, his answer, to fit in with the other guys (they were telecommunications line-technicians) There was no malice in him. I asked another one of the team and he said that the days work was routine and he was bored. Again, no malice of intent.


I think it's ignorance at best.

I've only ever catcalled women I'm friends with.😉


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I think it's ignorance at best.
> 
> I've only ever catcalled women I'm friends with.😉


Sometimes I catcall myself


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Why isn't Mr. Average resentful towards the #10 Chads who burned and used their way through tons of women?


I think they are.


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

Livvie said:


> Why isn't Mr. Average resentful towards the #10 Chads who burned and used their way through tons of women?


Who says they aren't? Honestly, I think they are.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Dictum Veritas said:


> Catcalling, I've always seen men who do that as giving praise where none is deserved in a way that labels themselves as lesser cognitive humans.
> 
> It is on average, behavior common to those more prone to violence, but is of itself not an act of violence or a pre-cursor per-se. I once asked a guy why he did it, his answer, to fit in with the other guys (they were telecommunications line-technicians) There was no malice in him. I asked another one of the team and he said that the days work was routine and he was bored. Again, no malice of intent.


🙄 I didn’t say it was “an act of violence.” You’re deliberately twisting my words. I clearly said “at worst.” You’re denying that men start with cat calling and end with a group following a woman until she escapes, or doesn’t. Interesting you claim this never happens when I have had to duck into shops and ask for help to escape a group of men following me. It’s not common, which is why I said clearly “at worst.” If you don’t want people reading into your words, don’t do it others. If you plan to automatically read “man hating feminazi man haters” into all my posts, I’d appreciate if you’d say that outright as others have done so I can know not to bother to respond to you.

It’s not “praise.” Men do not cat-call women anticipating that they will get a date out of it, and it’s certainly not to make women feel attractive or desired.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Darwin is the deal … like it or not….male or female. If you don’t like where you rank do something to change what it is that you can control. Stay in your spot if you’re too lazy to do the work and gain valuable social and work/earning skills. Just because a man might be short and average looking doesn’t mean he can’t be rich and ripped with great conversation. Darwin is real but don’t be scared to punch him in the face. Be your own evolution.

And god sakes ….. dont whine about it.


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> You’re denying that men start with cat calling and end with a group following a woman until she escapes, or doesn’t. Interesting you claim this never happens when I have had to duck into shops and ask for help to escape a group of men following me.


Honestly, I've never seen that behavior, certainly here, there are (or were in my days) enough upstanding men around that any man or men thinking of following a woman while she was clearly trying to get away would have had his backside handed to him on a plate. Maybe a more impolite society such as we have here is more polite to women in that way. Men still die to protect there womenfolk here, well at least in the circles I travel.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> Darwin is the deal … like it or not….male or female. If you don’t like wear you rank do something to change what it is that you can control. Stay in your spot if you’re too lazy to do the work and gain valuable social and work/earning skills. Just because a man might be short and average looking doesn’t mean he can’t be rich and ripped with great conversation. Darwin is real but don’t be scared to punch him in the face. Be your own evolution.
> 
> And god sakes ….. dont whine about it.


This is me. Ugly as sin but ripped


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Dictum Veritas said:


> Honestly, I've never seen that behavior, certainly here, there are (or were in my days) enough upstanding men around that any man or men thinking of following a woman while she was clearly trying to get away would have had his backside handed to him on a plate. Maybe a more impolite society such as we have here is more polite to women in that way. Men still die to protect there womenfolk here, well at least in the circles I travel.


This happened to me in cities, specifically downtown. Chicago and Houston. It’s no coincidence those are places with a lot of crime anyway that goes unpunished. As I stated clearly in my posts, it is rare but does happen. In no way is cat calling meant to flatter or attract women. In cases like you describe where a man does it to “fit in” it probably has nothing at all to do with the woman.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Numb26 said:


> This is me. Ugly as sin but ripped


Well unless it’s so bad that you have to bag your own head just to masturbate then you’re probably going to be just fine 👍


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Unattractive women have a lot of closed doors to deal with too however.


True - but there are far less “unattractive” women when compared to what is considered an “unattractive” man. Please note that in elegirl’s explanation to me earlier she immediately only referred to the beautiful men as “10s”. Those are far and few between. 

Most men are going to be pleased with 4-5 women all day every day. 

What I’m getting at is the standard to be a beautiful man and get all the perks that comes with that is far greater than the standard to be a beautiful woman and get the perks that comes with that.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Not true. To be a beautiful women you usually need to be 5’7 or taller, long haired blonde , and 26 inch waist. Not many of those around.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

The whole point of online dating is to meet people in real life lol! It’s simply a form of connecting with others of the opposite sex who have things in common. It’s no worse or better.

When I was younger, before the existence of OLD, the range in quality of people I was meeting in real life is exactly the same as it is now on OLD.

OLD gets a bad rap because of all the stories but those same stories were playing out already 30 years ago at parties or clubs and anywhere else people were going to meet potential matches. The bashing of OLD is understandable but the reasons behind it are old news.


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This happened to me in cities, specifically downtown. Chicago and Houston. It’s no coincidence those are places with a lot of crime anyway that goes unpunished. As I stated clearly in my posts, it is rare but does happen. In no way is cat calling meant to flatter or attract women. In cases like you describe where a man does it to “fit in” it probably has nothing at all to do with the woman.


In the cases I've mentioned it really doesn't have much to do with the woman, no. What you are describing sounds more like random stalking that what could sanely be described as cat-calling though. I am sorry that you find yourself in the midst of people who would intimidate a woman to that degree. I personally would hand a man doing that his backside on a plate, no kidding, I may be older, but there's still fight in the old dog yet.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Amazing how we set our standards on marketing the bod, and not with "heartening" the soul.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> Having never experienced online dating the whole concept seems revolting. Why wouldn’t you want her face to face? Why would you want a text when you could be interacting with a live woman? You can’t build a little bit of fun tension with context and inflection over a text. Maybe I’m too old. Oh hell I must be because I’m here on an Internet forum with the rest of you old farts who happen to be my age 😳


Never thought in a million years I would be considering OLD either, but then again, I wasn’t expecting to be manipulated for 18 years either…

Lol. But here I am. 

Things are way different now than what they were in my early 20s. Meeting women was easy. I was in college. They were everywhere I was. 

Not the case today. I have a career in a mostly male field. Besides, I prefer not to sh1t where I eat. 

All of my hobbies are much more male oriented. Very few females. 

So now I have to find new ways to meet women in the world. That is easier said than done for me. So that is the only reason I would consider doing the OLD thing.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr.Married said:


> Having never experienced online dating the whole concept seems revolting. Why wouldn’t you want her face to face? Why would you want a text when you could be interacting with a live woman? You can’t build a little bit of fun tension with context and inflection over a text. Maybe I’m too old. Oh hell I must be because I’m here on an Internet forum with the rest of you old farts who happen to be my age 😳


The only thing about OLD that would make sense to me is to seek out people who are local. Then, make a date to meet in a safe place, like a coffee shop so you can start getting to know each other and figure out if you are compatible. Keeping it online, long distance, in chat, etc for a long time makes little sense.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

snowbum said:


> Not true. To be a beautiful women you usually need to be 5’7 or taller, long haired blonde , and 26 inch waist. Not many of those around.


What?!?!?!

You can’t possibly be serious?!

I see beautiful women every single day that don’t look anything like what you are describing. 

How did you come up with these standards?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Never thought in a million years I would be considering OLD either, but then again, I wasn’t expecting to be manipulated for 18 years either…
> 
> Lol. But here I am.
> 
> ...


Home Depot and the grocery store are full of those critters. If all else fails buy a boat !!!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Dictum Veritas said:


> Catcalling, I've always seen men who do that as giving praise where none is deserved in a way that labels themselves as lesser cognitive humans.
> 
> It is on average, behavior common to those more prone to violence, but is of itself not an act of violence or a pre-cursor per-se. I once asked a guy why he did it, his answer, to fit in with the other guys (they were telecommunications line-technicians) There was no malice in him. I asked another one of the team and he said that the days work was routine and he was bored. Again, no malice of intent.


One of the problems is that a woman never knows which catcaller has the intent of malice. So, the woman always has to be very much aware of what's going on around her.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

snowbum said:


> Not true. To be a beautiful women you usually need to be 5’7 or taller, long haired blonde , and 26 inch waist. Not many of those around.


Your idea is nowhere near reality. For your own good I think you need to broaden the horizon of that description by an extremely wide margin. Hot chicks come in many different packages.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

EleGirl said:


> One of the problems is that a woman never knows which catcaller has the intent of malice. So, the woman always has to be very much aware of what's going on around her.


Especially some of the places you have been 😳


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> The only thing about OLD that would make sense to me is to seek out people who are local. Then, make a date to meet in a safe place, like a coffee shop so you can start getting to know each other and figure out if you are compatible. Keeping it online, long distance, in chat, etc for a long time makes little sense.


That is one reason why I invited Cindy up to the canyon for the Winter and she accepted... and look what happened! 🥰

I said that when I divorced I was just going to be a great date, she is holding me to my word.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I do believe an average woman might have a little easier time when it comes to chatting someone up than an average guy these days.

Maybe not worldwide for sure but a little moreso in the west and average men need not apply on OLD.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Amazing how we set our standards on marketing the bod, and not with "heartening" the soul.


 This is a very important point.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> The average women, at least the 80% or so on OLD, are being used for sex a plenty by a small percentage of above average men for sure. Just for sex. They are under the illusion that they are something other than a bunch of cows getting plowed by a couple of bulls.
> 
> They won't be wifed up by those few guys and in most cases not even reach girlfriend status.


We have a young naive relative who experienced exactly this via OLD. Way sadder and much wiser.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> Well unless it’s so bad that you have to bag your own head just to masturbate then you’re probably going to be just fine 👍


Double bag!!


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

snowbum said:


> Not true. To be a beautiful women you usually need to be 5’7 or taller, long haired blonde , and 26 inch waist. Not many of those around.


Nah, keep the tall, blondes. Rather have a short, curvy redhead


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Amazing how we set our standards on marketing the bod, and not with "heartening" the soul.


A high level of attractiveness can only hold you up so high for so long in a relationship. If you have nothing else to offer all relationships will be doomed for you. Same with sex. A man can be an absolute beast in the bedroom but if all he has is looks and bedroom skills he is going to fail as well. Of course all of this applies to women too.

Edited to add the same goes for financial status. Men will use that status to try to reel women in, women who they believe wouldn’t give them the time of day otherwise. I’ve had it happen to me.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> Nah, keep the tall, blondes. Rather have a short, curvy redhead


Same here. I am attracted to bigger guys but in no way shape or form does he need to be ripped. I love a stacked booty on a man even if it doesn’t look all that fabulous in the nude but in those jeans? oh yeah!


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Not said:


> Same with sex. A man can be an absolute beast in the bedroom but if all he has is looks and bedroom skills he is going to fail as well.


Dammit!

Looks like I have to develop some more skills.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LATERILUS79 said:


> True - but there are far less “unattractive” women when compared to what is considered an “unattractive” man. Please note that in elegirl’s explanation to me earlier she immediately only referred to the beautiful men as “10s”. Those are far and few between.


Oh good grief... I used "10s" as a general term to mean guys who are considered very good looking or a good catch. I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out if it's 7-10, 8-10, 9-10, or only 10. We are posting on an internet forum, not writing dissertations or some serious paper that will be peer reviewed. "10" just means whatever a person finds the most attractive and each of us finds different things attractive.



LATERILUS79 said:


> Most men are going to be pleased with 4-5 women all day every day.


And most women are going to be pleased with 4-5 men all day long. I see it all the time when I'm out in town, when I was a work, etc. 



LATERILUS79 said:


> What I’m getting at is the standard to be a beautiful man and get all the perks that comes with that is far greater than the standard to be a beautiful woman and get the perks that comes with that.


I'm not sure I agree with his. I've seen a lot of very beautiful women dating and/or married to very average looking men. And not for the money as many of these men don't have much money. A lot of people look at character/personality and other traits over looks. Looks might work for initial attraction. But over time character and personality win out.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> Oh good grief... I used "10s" as a general term to mean guys who are considered very good looking or a good catch. I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out if it's 7-10, 8-10, 9-10, or only 10. We are posting on an internet forum, not writing dissertations or some serious paper that will be peer reviewed. "10" just means whatever a person finds the most attractive and each of us finds different things attractive.
> 
> 
> And most women are going to be pleased with 4-5 men all day long. I see it all the time when I'm out in town, when I was a work, etc.
> ...


LoL! You used “good grief” on me! 😂

I will take you at your word that you meant more men are beautiful below the 10 level. I still maintain that womens standards for what is a beautiful man is far higher than what a man’s standards for a beautiful woman. 


I will have to agree to disagree with you. Then again, our life experiences are quite different.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

snowbum said:


> Not true. To be a beautiful women you usually need to be 5’7 or taller, long haired blonde , and 26 inch waist. Not many of those around.


I guess it varies by locale. Tall willowy women were popular (like models) in the 1970s and didn't even need big boobs, but by the 80s, really short tiny women seemed popular. But the classis blond with big boobs remains constant through the decades. Every guy in those music bars would have their eyes on the same one or two hottest women. So yeah, in that way, it was kind of like OLD. They didn't get them there either.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Never thought in a million years I would be considering OLD either, but then again, I wasn’t expecting to be manipulated for 18 years either…
> 
> Lol. But here I am.
> 
> ...


Have you tried meetup.com? It's a site that people post on for activities. For example, here where I live there are dozens, if not hundreds of meetups. They range from things like hikes, white water rafting, running meetups, dinner meetups, arts, photography, and on and on. I used to have a meetup that met a few times a week to walk along the river here where I live. It's a beautiful walk. I had a lot of people, both men and women, just show up. There were a lot of people who were regulars. It's a great way to meet people, both men and women. Just go to the site and search for meetups in your town/city.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I


Numb26 said:


> Nah, keep the tall, blondes. Rather have a short, curvy redhead


Wow sounds awesome!

If you asked my wife which type I like she would probably say “He likes all of them!” 🤣


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

There is a reason this has been around for as far back as I can remember.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> Have you tried meetup.com? It's a site that people post on for activities. For example, here where I live there are dozens, if not hundreds of meetups. They range from things like hikes, white water rafting, running meetups, dinner meetups, arts, photography, and on and on. I used to have a meetup that met a few times a week to walk along the river here where I live. It's a beautiful walk. I had a lot of people, both men and women, just show up. There were a lot of people who were regulars. It's a great way to meet people, both men and women. Just go to the site and search for meetups in your town/city.


Oh, I have to tell you one of my Meetup experiences. It was a childfree Meetup, for people without kids who are happy about it, in short. 

I went to two. First was bowling. That was fun enough. It was a mixture of married couples, lesbians, and a couple of single women, and one special needs guy with the mind of a 12 year old. The men bowled against the women. The men let the special needs guy win to make him feel good. 

Next meetup soon thereafter was at someone's house. A game was on. The married couples were all watching the game and seemed paranoid if single people came near the vicinity. So it was me and the lesbians around the dining table. The special needs guy was off by the couples watching the game until the men in the couples decided it was time to try to fix him up with the single women. 

That was my last meetup with that group. Awkward.

I did join a paranormal group that did meetups, and I felt more at home there.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr.Married said:


> Especially some of the places you have been 😳


All those situations I posted about happened in rather normal US cities and towns... not even in the rough areas of cities/towns. I've never been one to just sit at home and have always ventured out and about a lot. So, I guess the more a person goes out in public places the more likely they are to run into some not-so-good things.


----------



## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Mr.Married said:


> Home Depot and the grocery store are full of those critters. If all else fails buy a boat !!!


Or better yet. 3D Aerobatic airplane (2 seater)


----------



## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Dammit!
> 
> Looks like I have to develop some more skills.


Well yeah, if you want to keep her lol! Starting off with being a good person is a great idea but I don’t think you’ll have any issues there. 😉


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Dictum Veritas said:


> In the cases I've mentioned it really doesn't have much to do with the woman, no. What you are describing sounds more like random stalking that what could sanely be described as cat-calling though. I am sorry that you find yourself in the midst of people who would intimidate a woman to that degree. I personally would hand a man doing that his backside on a plate, no kidding, I may be older, but there's still fight in the old dog yet.


There was a very nice police officer each time who showed up when called and cleared it out. When I’m with my husband that never happens. He looks mean.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> Oh good grief... I used "10s" as a general term to mean guys who are considered very good looking or a good catch. I'm not going to waste my time trying to figure out if it's 7-10, 8-10, 9-10, or only 10. We are posting on an internet forum, not writing dissertations or some serious paper that will be peer reviewed. "10" just means whatever a person finds the most attractive and each of us finds different things attractive.
> 
> 
> And most women are going to be pleased with 4-5 men all day long. I see it all the time when I'm out in town, when I was a work, etc.
> ...


No matter how hot a man or woman is, someone somewhere is sick of their ****. 😉😂😂😂


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

TexasMom1216 said:


> No matter how hot a man or woman is, someone somewhere is sick of their ****. 😉😂😂😂


True story!!


----------



## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> There was a very nice police officer each time who showed up when called and cleared it out. When I’m with my husband that never happens. He looks mean.


I'm sure a mean looking husband would do the trick. You see those who announce their personal baser intent with much fanfare rarely has skills to gain what they desire and even more rarely the sack to stand up against any viable opposition.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Talking about catcalling. This happened was I was in the Army, in basic training. In those days the men and women were in different units. I think it's more integrated today (not sure).

The guys used to catcall the women a lot. For example, a platoon of men would sing some pretty raunchy things to women as they passed by. The women in my platoon decided to give back as good as we got. So, we took the cadences that the men used and just changed the sex of who was being targeted. We were doing it in humor. None of us were upset about all this. So, when we went by some men we'd say or sing the same things back to them.

Guess what happened... we women were called on the carpet for being disgusting. The male Drill Seargents and the officers in particular were very upset at what we did. They were ok with the men doing it to women, but not with women doing it to men.

Also, some of the men had pinup foldouts from Playboy in their barracks. Some of the women in my platoon got pinup foldouts of men from the Playgirl magazine and put them up in our barracks. Again, the male Drill Seargents and the officers got very upset with the women for doing this. But they were ok with the men doing it.

Of course, that was back in the day when we could still also use the terms "mom" and "dad" and were not ordered to call them "parents" and "care givers"


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

snowbum said:


> Not true. To be a beautiful women you usually need to be 5’7 or taller, long haired blonde , and 26 inch waist. Not many of those around.


And be at or under 100 lbs.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> Talking about catcalling. This happened was I was in the Army, in basic training. In those days the men and women were in different units. I think it's more integrated today (not sure).
> 
> The guys used to catcall the women a lot. For example, a platoon of men would sing some pretty raunchy things to women as they passed by. The women in my platoon decided to give back as good as we got. So, we took the cadences that the men used and just changed the sex of who was being targeted. We were doing it in humor. None of us were upset about all this. So, when we went by some men we'd say or sing the same things back to them.
> 
> ...


There it is, the old double standard. Still true today for the most part. 
Reminds me of when I was a music buyer (cds, etc). Lots of partly nude covers with women. No one said a thing. Then one year there was a penis -- OH, THE OUTRAGE!! Never made it into the stores. How dare someone exploit a man. It's great to do it to women all day long and even expected. Grrrrrrr.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> Talking about catcalling. This happened was I was in the Army, in basic training. In those days the men and women were in different units. I think it's more integrated today (not sure).
> 
> The guys used to catcall the women a lot. For example, a platoon of men would sing some pretty raunchy things to women as they passed by. The women in my platoon decided to give back as good as we got. So, we took the cadences that the men used and just changed the sex of who was being targeted. We were doing it in humor. None of us were upset about all this. So, when we went by some men we'd say or sing the same things back to them.
> 
> ...


This sounds… familiar.


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## Dictum Veritas (Oct 22, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> There it is, the old double standard. Still true today for the most part.
> Reminds me of when I was a music buyer (cds, etc). Lots of partly nude covers with women. No one said a thing. Then one year there was a penis -- OH, THE OUTRAGE!! Never made it into the stores. How dare someone exploit a man. It's great to do it to women all day long and even expected. Grrrrrrr.


Yeah, we all know those like when female teachers who stat-rape boys get of with probation and males who do the same get 20 years. There's pros and conns to every group you belong to because every group has a different end goal and those rules exist for your protection. We can lament all we want to about how unfair this or that is, but the moment we breach natural laws set in biology, we are in for a bumpy ride because biology is brutal and rewards only survivors. Now if I can offer the strengths of my group to aid in where yours is weak, and this get's reciprocated, you'll see it all falls in place like puzzle pieces. But if you hammer pieces in where they don't belong and doing things they really aught not to be doing, you end up with a jagged mess on which every contributor will cut themselves or simply a bunch of people uselessly shouting about the merits of their puzzle pieces while nothing gets built and nothing moves forward.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

DownByTheRiver said:


> There it is, the old double standard. Still true today for the most part.
> Reminds me of when I was a music buyer (cds, etc). Lots of partly nude covers with women. No one said a thing. Then one year there was a penis -- OH, THE OUTRAGE!! Never made it into the stores. How dare someone exploit a man. It's great to do it to women all day long and even expected. Grrrrrrr.


This made me think of something else that happened.

When I was stationed at the Pentagon, there was a staff sergeant in our office. He had framed pictures of women in sexy poses, only partially clothed on the wall behind his desk. I think that they were all from the Army Magazine as the back cover was always a 'soft' pinup. When I was in the Army, they started putting a guy on the back cover about once a year. The first male photo was of a guy who was fully dressed like with a collegiate look. He was even holding a sweater thrown over his shoulder.

The next year the guy was a football player whose name I don't recall. It was a photo of him standing outside with no shirt. He was wearing jeans. It was not particularly sexy. Just a nice photo of a fairly good-looking guy. So, to follow the example of the staff sergeant I put this photo up behind my desk.

Well, all hell broke out. The men were not happy about this. That staff sergeant was very upset about it and told me to take it down. When I pointed out that he had a dozen or more scantly clothed female pinups on his office wall he walked out. We normally got along very well. But that day he was not happy with me. There was a LT who I jogged with most mornings. He too was very upset that I had that 'disgusting' photo on the wall behind my desk. 

I did take it down after a few days. I was shocked at the reaction as the photo was not offensive at all. But it was ok for the men who worked in the Pentagon to hang photos of pin-up girls.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> This made me think of something else that happened.
> 
> When I was stationed at the Pentagon, there was a staff sergeant in our office. He had framed pictures of women in sexy poses, only partially clothed on the wall behind his desk. I think that they were all from the Army Magazine as the back cover was always a 'soft' pinup. When I was in the Army, they started putting a guy on the back cover about once a year. The first male photo was of a guy who was fully dressed like with a collegiate look. He was even holding a sweater thrown over his shoulder.
> 
> ...


It’s sad that disrespect and dehumanization is so ingrained into our society that women asking to be treated with simple courtesy are labeled as monsters. This is why as a woman, it is impossible to ever truly be safe. 🙁


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

snowbum said:


> Not sure why these super hot guys are online to begin with is sex is so easy for them they gave more than need in real life. Also don’t know many of these dumb women lining up to be used and toyed with. Many people aren’t fans of being suckered. I’m frankly tired of bitter uncle type men blaming women and blaming everyone else.


They do it because they can. 

I am not condoning, simply making an observation. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> OLD is a very limited environment. Most people I know, men and women, won't have anything to do with OLD anymore. If a person is active and does things they enjoy, they will meet single members of the opposite sex (or whatever sex they want to date). It works a lot better. At least that what I've been told by most of the single I talk to.


While it is limited, it is also now the number one way that people are meeting their dating prospects. 

It was limited when we were dating. Not so much now. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

snowbum said:


> Not true. To be a beautiful women you usually need to be 5’7 or taller, long haired blonde , and 26 inch waist. Not many of those around.


I know no man, nor have I heard of any man, who has a height requirement beyond dwarfism/little people.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> This made me think of something else that happened.
> 
> When I was stationed at the Pentagon, there was a staff sergeant in our office. He had framed pictures of women in sexy poses, only partially clothed on the wall behind his desk. I think that they were all from the Army Magazine as the back cover was always a 'soft' pinup. When I was in the Army, they started putting a guy on the back cover about once a year. The first male photo was of a guy who was fully dressed like with a collegiate look. He was even holding a sweater thrown over his shoulder.
> 
> ...


Oh, men are to be respected, don't you know? They want to be the only offenders I guess. It's just all part of wanting to believe they are superior and we are subordinate. F that. Too much evidence to the contrary.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> Talking about catcalling. This happened was I was in the Army, in basic training. In those days the men and women were in different units. I think it's more integrated today (not sure).
> 
> The guys used to catcall the women a lot. For example, a platoon of men would sing some pretty raunchy things to women as they passed by. The women in my platoon decided to give back as good as we got. So, we took the cadences that the men used and just changed the sex of who was being targeted. We were doing it in humor. None of us were upset about all this. So, when we went by some men we'd say or sing the same things back to them.
> 
> ...


Damn……. I can feel the butthurt of the male platoon units from far away and through the passage of time! What a bunch of crybabies!

Where’s @TXTrini? She’s usually on top of all butthurt happenings in the world. 

Elegirl, the behavior you experienced in the army here is weak sauce. I wish we could have had some shared experiences here. I’ve never seen this before. Why? Don’t know. Don’t know if it is a different culture or way of raising kids or… I just don’t know. I can’t imagine seeing stuff like this. Sorry you had to go through it. I’ve known since early childhood that if you are going to dish it out, expect to get it in return. If anything, I would have WELCOMED the challenge back! It would have been fun!


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> I know no man, nor have I heard of any man, who has a height requirement beyond dwarfism/little people.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Yes. That was the first thing that stuck out to me as well. 

I’m 5’11”. 

If a decent looking curvy 5’0” woman stroller up to me and wanted to talk? I’m game for sure. I’ve never noticed height on a woman unless she is taller than me.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Not said:


> Well yeah, if you want to keep her lol! Starting off with being a good person is a great idea but I don’t think you’ll have any issues there. 😉


LoL. I was making a joke earlier. I think I have plenty to offer outside of the bedroom. This was just me puffing out my chest with my fragile male ego. I have no clue if I am a beast in bed. I’ll need to report back once I get with a woman that doesn’t cringe at touching and prefers more than starfish sex. All I can say about my bedroom abilities for certain is that I bring a hell of a lot of enthusiasm! 😂


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Not said:


> There is a reason this has been around for as far back as I can remember.
> View attachment 91446


Way too skinny for my tastes. Hips and boobs are way out of proportion for the size of that woman. Never understood that picture on mudflaps. That’s just me though.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

farsidejunky said:


> I know no man, nor have I heard of any man, who has a height requirement beyond dwarfism/little people.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


So are you saying Random Dude isn't a man?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Dammit!
> 
> Looks like I have to develop some more skills.


That's ok, looks and bedroom skills aren't a bad foundation.

That's how I got Mrs. C and faked it till I made it for the rest.😋


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Not said:


> There is a reason this has been around for as far back as I can remember.
> View attachment 91446


Yeah, those are for guys who can't get laid to cover their failures.😋


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Enigma32 said:


> It's a case of the people who scream the loudest getting the most attention. Every woman doesn't need to shame men for looking at or talking to them, but when it does happen, that crap blows uppppp. The ladies get support for it too, with other women piling on about how the guy was creepy and everything else. So, just as you don't like catcalling because of the poor behavior of a few men, many men won't talk to women so much now because of the poor behavior of a few women.
> 
> As to catcalling, I bet if it all disappeared, many women would be upset. Maybe you don't like the scary ones, or any of them, but I've seen a lot of women smile and brag to their friends too. I think a lot of the ones doing the shaming also like the ego boost, they just have such little respect for the men that they repay them by shaming them.


I have a unique perspective on catcalling. When my wife and I lived in the South End of Boston I use to get catcalled by gay men frequently. The South End in those days was heavily populated by gay men. Having been the target I can say If I was a woman it would have been scary especially in certain situations. 

Guys who are upset with women not liking being catcalled are a bit weird. Why, why the need to yell at some stranger because she is attractive and happens to be walking by. Like really what is the point what do you think is going to happen what is the goal really. Personally I have zero issues with catcallers being shamed, if for nothing else their stupidity. Now I'm talking about catcallers not a guy simply saying hello, good morning, or things of that nature, but thats not the guys most women complain about. 

The crazy girls making videos and shaming men for looking their direction are simply damaged goods. They are professional victims searching for reason to be outraged. This is a small fraction of women. If men choose to alter their behaviors in life because of it, thats on them They should spend less time on social media because it has become their reference for reality which it is not.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> I know no man, nor have I heard of any man, who has a height requirement beyond dwarfism/little people.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


There was this one midget……… never mind


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

@happyhusband0005, thanks for acknowledging that it can be scary. It wasn’t meant to be “man hating” for me to point out that it can be intimidating or frightening, it was explaining how it feels when it happens a certain way. I don’t get the benefit of the doubt on these kinds of things, and while I’m sorry that happened to you it’s comforting to have someone not dismiss my fears.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Yes. That was the first thing that stuck out to me as well.
> 
> I’m 5’11”.
> 
> If a decent looking curvy 5’0” woman stroller up to me and wanted to talk? I’m game for sure. I’ve never noticed height on a woman unless she is taller than me.


Hey hey hey !!!!!!! Back away from Mrs. Married !!!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> This made me think of something else that happened.
> 
> When I was stationed at the Pentagon, there was a staff sergeant in our office. He had framed pictures of women in sexy poses, only partially clothed on the wall behind his desk. I think that they were all from the Army Magazine as the back cover was always a 'soft' pinup. When I was in the Army, they started putting a guy on the back cover about once a year. The first male photo was of a guy who was fully dressed like with a collegiate look. He was even holding a sweater thrown over his shoulder.
> 
> ...


Good grief!😂. Big tough, not so confident men apparently...😋


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> And be at or under 100 lbs.


It’s like cutting yourself then blaming someone else.

Your misinformation is not the product of anyones information but your own.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> @happyhusband0005, thanks for acknowledging that it can be scary. It wasn’t meant to be “man hating” for me to point out that it can be intimidating or frightening, it was explaining how it feels when it happens a certain way. I don’t get the benefit of the doubt on these kinds of things, and while I’m sorry that happened to you it’s comforting to have someone not dismiss my fears.


There was one time I got a little nervous. Walking home fairly late on a pretty dark street lined with brownstones. A big guy came out of the dark under one of the front steps of one of the buildings walking towards repeating I wish you were my boyfriend. The guy was like 6'-6" 300lbs. I just kept walking straight at him and just said thanks and kept walking. I definitely felt a little bit like prey. I definitely get why women carry mace. 

Some guys were very creative with the lines though I did get a kick out of some.


----------



## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Amazing how we set our standards on marketing the bod, and not with "heartening" the soul.


Obviously the answer is that both are important.
But physical / sexual attraction is a thing. And it matters in a relationship. 
And it’s far easier / efficient as a first-level filter, then assessing the soul, which would be more of a second level filter.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Livvie said:


> Why isn't Mr. Average resentful towards the #10 Chads who burned and used their way through tons of women?


Nope, not one bit. Good for them if they want to date a 9 or a 10. Kudos if they also want to smash a fatty 5.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> There was one time I got a little nervous. Walking home fairly late on a pretty dark street lined with brownstones. A big guy came out of the dark under one of the front steps of one of the buildings walking towards repeating I wish you were my boyfriend. The guy was like 6'-6" 300lbs. I just kept walking straight at him and just said thanks and kept walking. I definitely felt a little bit like prey. I definitely get why women carry mace.
> 
> Some guys were very creative with the lines though I did get a kick out of some.


Now imagine you’re a woman, it’s 6:30 am and still dark out, and you’re walking downtown in a big city on your way to work. 3-4 large men see you walk past, describe in vulgar language what they’d like to do to you, then when you don’t respond and walk faster they start following you calling you ***** and **** and telling you you’re not allowed to say no.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

RebuildingMe said:


> Nope, not one bit. Good for them if they want to date a 9 or a 10. Kudos if they also want to smash a fatty 5.


I've seen quite a bit of at least frustration from average guys that can't score. They be getting pretty mad at "Chad and Tyrone"😵‍💫


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I've seen quite a bit of at least frustration from average guys that can't score. They be getting pretty mad at "Chad and Tyrone"😵‍💫


I don’t get mad. There’s plenty to go around. Even more if you lower your standards and sneak them out the back door under the cover of night 🤣


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

OLD is a necessary evil because a guy meeting a girl organically is almost impossible these days. #metoo


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

snowbum said:


> Not true. To be a beautiful women you usually need to be 5’7 or taller, long haired blonde , and 26 inch waist. Not many of those around.


Tall- Nope 
Blonde- Nope
Waist -no idea.

Beautiful -Definitely!


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

RebuildingMe said:


> OLD is a necessary evil because a guy meeting a girl organically is almost impossible these days. #metoo


That is such horse poo. I’ve said it before in this thread. Maybe y’all just need to move to Texas. There is absolutely no shortage of cute friendly women that are willing to talk. They are literally everywhere. They won’t even mace you for talking to them ….. jeez.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Tall- Nope
> Blonde- Nope
> Waist -no idea.
> 
> Beautiful -Definitely!


I always liked that girls thick thighs. Pictures of Shaq and her were everywhere for a while.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mr.Married said:


> That is such horse poo. I’ve said it before in this thread. Maybe y’all just need to move to Texas. There is absolutely no shortage of cute friendly women that are willing to talk. They are literally everywhere. They won’t even mace you for talking to them ….. jeez.


Seriously! Just try to get out of a conversation with one!!!🤠


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Damn……. I can feel the butthurt of the male platoon units from far away and through the passage of time! What a bunch of crybabies!
> 
> Where’s @TXTrini? She’s usually on top of all butthurt happenings in the world.
> 
> Elegirl, the behavior you experienced in the army here is weak sauce. I wish we could have had some shared experiences here. I’ve never seen this before. Why? Don’t know. Don’t know if it is a different culture or way of raising kids or… I just don’t know. I can’t imagine seeing stuff like this. Sorry you had to go through it. I’ve known since early childhood that if you are going to dish it out, expect to get it in return. If anything, I would have WELCOMED the challenge back! It would have been fun!


You rang?

Seriously though, I simply view this as a colossal waste of time and have better **** to do. There have been so many threads about this, and it follows the same path. 

My take on all this nonsense is very cit and dry.
Smart people who are willing to learn and compromise will be ok no matter what happens and how unfair things are. Lazy, miserable people who like bawling about how unfair everything is and how "things" should change to accommodate their narrow world views will keep *****ing and do absolutely nothing to improve their situation. 

Eventually that attitude will die out with them, cause noone owes anyone a relationship or anything at all. Maybe this is social evolution in action, the strong survive, adapt and thrive, the weak get chewerd up, spit out and simply disappear in ignomy. 

Quite frankly, if people tried to be the best they could be for themselves and stopped wallowing in victimhood, they might develop resilience and attract what they want. I see men who think showing up is enough, women who think opening their legs is enough...


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

snowbum said:


> Not true. To be a beautiful women you usually need to be 5’7 or taller, long haired blonde , and 26 inch waist. Not many of those around.





TexasMom1216 said:


> And be at or under 100 lbs.




So self-conscious. There are "types" for a reason.

Some men prefer blondes, some prefer redheads, some prefer brunettes, some prefer unnatural colors. Some men like tall women, some men like short women. Some men like skinny women, some men like fat women. Some men like big boobs, some men like small boobs.

And, my wife is 5'2, around 98-100lbs and is underweight. A 5'7" 100lb or less woman would be very underweight. There would be NOTHING attractive about that.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Meh I think a lot of it for a man is being yourself and having confidence and then not being a dummy at least for meeting and interacting with women IRL. I think confidence probably counts for a lot. If you’re then an idiot with nothing to offer the confidence part probably is wasted.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I really don't like skinny women.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I was tempted to start a "What do you find attractive" thread but I'd probably cause someone, somewhere to say "good grief".😋


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Laurentium said:


> I really don't like skinny women.


I like hips. Sometimes women go straight down like a man, no bueno! It’s a worse problem on very thin women, I prefer slightly more weight.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Laurentium said:


> I really don't like skinny women.


Popeye is picking up your slack.😉


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

gameopoly5 said:


> I have a friend (Roger) who for the last 30 years has complained to people about how badly his wife treats him.
> Everything that went wrong and was wrong in his life he`d blame his wife.
> He used to tell me, one day he`ll drive off into the sunset and be gone. I used to believe him and say, don`t do that. Took me years to realise that was all BS.
> Another time one of our mutual friends (Terry) told Roger`s wife to show more respect towards her husband. When Roger found out he told Terry, how dare you speak to my wife like that and fell out with him.
> ...


Life is all about choices. It’s words versus actions. Most will do anything to keep from making a decision so it’s really on them.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Rus47 said:


> I suppose a lot of people are a victim of inertia. The easiest thing to do when faced with a problem is nothing. Roof leaks, put a bucket under it. Wife cheats, make excuses for her. If they were adventuresome they would wonder what would life be like after dumping their problem. From a lot of the men writing in here wondering if she has an AP, when it is obvious to all of these internet strangers that she has had at least one for years, they can't see their life would actually be better with a dog instead of "married" to a cheating woman. A dog is faithful and loves unconditionally.


Life isn’t always fair. It’s how you handle the unfairness that counts.


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## bobsmith (Oct 15, 2012)

Just a fun example of what screws men up..... I matched up with a cute fox on OLD the other day. Ran into her a few times, and I always delete her because she seems to have princess syndrome. I decided to look her up on SM and she is apparently with a guy!!!! She is on OLD WHILE being in a relationship! This dude is already out and doesn't even know it yet. 

And the guy has all this gushy crap on his page about relationships, doing the work, etc. Imagine the fallout when this guy gets nexted....

And then we have a friend of mine who's fiance' was on OLD, probably until she ran into my pic....lol 

I really don't think men will wise up anytime soon. 


Like how many men do you know right now that are raising someone else's kids? But you will never be able to teach a beta male that he is "Mr. Right Now".....


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> Meh I think a lot of it for a man is being yourself and having confidence and then not being a dummy at least for meeting and interacting with women IRL. I think confidence probably counts for a lot. If you’re then an idiot with nothing to offer the confidence part probably is wasted.


I think you're exactly right. 

You don't see any of those men *****ing, they don't take it personally if someone doesn't like them as they are, they simply move on to focus on who wants them. They don't dwell on their failures, they move on. Nothing is more unattractive and brands you a loser than an ugly attitude 

Btw, I've been rejected by men I wanted, and you don't see me holding onto them like a dingleberry refusing to detach.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> I think you're exactly right.
> 
> You don't see any of those men *****ing, they don't take it personally if someone doesn't like them as they are, they simply move on to focus on who wants them. They don't dwell on their failures, they move on. Nothing is more unattractive and brands you a loser than an ugly attitude
> 
> Btw, I've been rejected by men I wanted, and you don't see me holding onto them like a dingleberry refusing to detach.


Yep. The attitude you need to have is ok well there is another person coming by any time now and that one will work/be better/etc… Based on the number of times I am out and I see women at popular bars by themselves or only with girlfriends and ZERO men talking to them there is a lot of wasted potential in the universe now probably getting absorbed by OLD and online nonsense.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bobsmith said:


> Just a fun example of what screws men up..... I matched up with a cute fox on OLD the other day. Ran into her a few times, and I always delete her because she seems to have princess syndrome. I decided to look her up on SM and she is apparently with a guy!!!! She is on OLD WHILE being in a relationship! This dude is already out and doesn't even know it yet.
> 
> And the guy has all this gushy crap on his page about relationships, doing the work, etc. Imagine the fallout when this guy gets nexted....
> 
> ...


I would characterize this as an issue that happens to both men and women... sadly.

It's not just some women cheating and lying. It's some men as well. That's the issue I have with threads like this one. I get that the thread is mostly men talking about things that bother them. But women have the same issues with the men they get involved with. The fact is that there are some very low life men and women out there. And people who are good, honest, loving people get suckered by them all the time.

My sympathy goes to both the men and women who find themselves take advantage of by this type of lose lives.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Dingleberry.....😂


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I would characterize this as an issue that happens to both men and women... sadly.
> 
> It's not just some women cheating and lying. It's some men as well. That's the issue I have with threads like this one. I get that the thread is mostly men talking about things that bother them. But women have the same issues with the men they get involved with. The fact is that there are some very low life men and women out there. And people who are good, honest, loving people get suckered by them all the time.
> 
> My sympathy goes to both the men and women who find themselves take advantage of by this type of lose lives.


I think this thread started out about pathetic men who won't do anything to change their situation so maybe they are just getting what they have coming.

It's morphed in an interesting way however.🙂


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

bobsmith said:


> to teach a beta male that he is "Mr. Right Now".....


 Being Mr. Right Now can have it’s advantage as well. Casual dating fits a purpose for many people. The understanding of the NOW part differentiation is the key between the cry babies and emotionally stable…..


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> you don't see me holding onto them like a dingleberry refusing to detach.


The things you say, Trini. God, this one was killing me! 🤣. 

Definitely made a mess of the water I was drinking when I read this one.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

TXTrini said:


> I think you're exactly right.
> 
> You don't see any of those men *****ing, they don't take it personally if someone doesn't like them as they are, they simply move on to focus on who wants them. They don't dwell on their failures, they move on. Nothing is more unattractive and brands you a loser than an ugly attitude
> 
> Btw, I've been rejected by men I wanted, and you don't see me holding onto them like a dingleberry refusing to detach.


I’ve actually had this conversation with men and they really do appreciate the honesty. Or at least the few that topic came up with did. In my personal experience I believe the majority probably do because each time I’ve had to tell a man it was no spark for me he was very cool about it and never reached out later to ask why.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> The things you say, Trini. God, this one was killing me! 🤣.
> 
> Definitely made a mess of the water I was drinking when I read this one.


Well you got the point real fast, right?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> you don't see me holding onto them like a dingleberry refusing to detach.


😂😂😂😂😂. You poet, you. 🥰


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Not said:


> I’ve actually had this conversation with men and they really do appreciate the honesty. Or at least the few that topic came up with did. In my personal experience I believe the majority probably do because each time I’ve had to tell a man it was no spark for me he was very cool about it and never reached out later to ask why.


I've had a similar experience. Of course there ate some people who can't take no for an answer no matter how decent you try to be about it, bit that's a personal problem.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> I've had a similar experience. Of course there ate some people who can't take no for an answer no matter how decent you try to be about it, bit that's a personal problem.


I've had some "dingle berries". One even tried to roofie me because she didn't understand the word No.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I've had some "dingle berries". One even tried to roofie me because she didn't understand the word No.


Thats disgusting, you should have called rhe cops on her.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I've had some "dingle berries". One even tried to roofie me because she didn't understand the word No.


Don't you hate it when women treat us like meat?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> Don't you hate it when women treat us like meat?


You love it and you know it!😂

I've had that line said to me while they smiled after I said no. I did find the confidence and persistence a bit attractive because their pure willpower made me smile at least.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> Thats disgusting, you should have called rhe cops on her.


I was maybe 16 or 17 and I guarantee no one would have cared. I didn't figure it out until quite a ways after the fact.

She got a kiss and a dance out of the deal and I had a drug induced mellow time.

She got me to loosen up, just not as much as she wanted.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> Don't you hate it when women treat us like meat?


I don’t believe you do. 😉


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

I'm just guessing, but I'm thinking that OLD may also be partly responsible for some marriages going sexless. The woman has had better, even if that all that better did was use her, than what she's settling for and shuts it off because she's wasn't really attracted to whom she married. She settled, because that was all that was available to her.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> I'm just guessing, but I'm thinking that OLD may also be partly responsible for some marriages going sexless. The woman has had better than what she's settling for and shuts it off because she's wasn't really attracted to whom she married. She settled, because that was all that was available to her.


This makes zero sense. Some women did that long before OLD. Some men settle for sexlesss marriages when they're too afraid to change the status quo. 

Btw, I'm not being disparaging, I also put up with a sexlesss marriage for a very long time and did nothing drastic until my hand was forced.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> This makes zero sense. Some women did that long before OLD. Some men settle for sexlesss marriages when they're too afraid to change the status quo.
> 
> Btw, I'm not being disparaging, I also put up with a sexlesss marriage for a very long time and did nothing drastic until my hand was forced.


She had an inflated sense of self and thinks of herself as settling because she settled for security and not a man she really could love.
I don't see how that doesn't make sense. It happens a lot, based on many of the postings from men who are living in sexless marriages and can't figure out why, even though they are basically good men.

Beta bucks, alpha f*cks.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> She had an inflated sense of self and thinks of herself as settling because she settled for security and not a man she really could love.
> I don't see how that doesn't make sense. It happens a lot, based on many of the postings from men who are living in sexless marriages and can't figure out why, even though they are basically good men.
> 
> Beta bucks, alpha f*cks.


So they have no agency whatsoever and were bound for life, right? Like poor little babies....


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> She had an inflated sense of self and thinks of herself as settling because she settled for security and not a man she really could love.
> I don't see how that doesn't make sense. It happens a lot, based on many of the postings from men who are living in sexless marriages and can't figure out why, even though they are basically good men.
> 
> Beta bucks, alpha f*cks.


That's going to be on her for not working with her man for good sex though I do know some men just aren't going to improve.

I think you're referring to the term "alpha widow"?


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> She had an inflated sense of self and thinks of herself as settling because she settled for security and not a man she really could love.
> I don't see how that doesn't make sense. It happens a lot, based on many of the postings from men who are living in sexless marriages and can't figure out why, even though they are basically good men.
> 
> Beta bucks, alpha f*cks.


I understand what you are saying here, but I don’t look at it in a definitive way. It sounds like you are saying that only certain men can be alpha and certain will always be beta. 


If a beta doesn’t want to live in a sexless marriage/relationship - he doesn’t have to. He can always learn to stand up for himself and leave. 

Then he can date and make sure that is a very important boundary of his. If the woman is all like, naw… I control the sex, you gonna scraps. He can always say, no thank you. I’ll find someone else.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> That is such horse poo. I’ve said it before in this thread. Maybe y’all just need to move to Texas. There is absolutely no shortage of cute friendly women that are willing to talk. They are literally everywhere. They won’t even mace you for talking to them ….. jeez.


Says the dude who’s been married over 20 years. You and I are not speaking to women with the same purpose in mind.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> I'm just guessing, but I'm thinking that OLD may also be partly responsible for some marriages going sexless. The woman has had better, even if that all that better did was use her, than what she's settling for and shuts it off because she's wasn't really attracted to whom she married. She settled, because that was all that was available to her.


Possibly. With OLD stats being what they are, average girls and under only meeting and hooking up with 6' tall, best looking guys just to realize those guys only ghost. After you get used to spending time with your ideal, how do you settle for what you can actually have? I do think it's one of the problems with modern dating.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> She had an inflated sense of self and thinks of herself as settling because she settled for security and not a man she really could love.
> I don't see how that doesn't make sense. It happens a lot, based on many of the postings from men who are living in sexless marriages and can't figure out why, even though they are basically good men.
> 
> Beta bucks, alpha f*cks.


Your premise is certainly a real thing, I think the point is it’s a thing with or without OLD.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

DudeInProgress said:


> Your premise is certainly a real thing, I think the point is it’s a thing with or without OLD.


It's like the boys who ogled the cheerleader in high-school and overlooked girls who actually liked them. People who have unrealistic aspirations always have sour grapes.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> That is such horse poo. I’ve said it before in this thread. Maybe y’all just need to move to Texas. There is absolutely no shortage of cute friendly women that are willing to talk. They are literally everywhere. They won’t even mace you for talking to them ….. jeez.


I suggest you reread the posts on this very thread. Basically by the ones who, of course, liked your comment. It’s a real threat. As someone that went through BS accusations, women can destroy a man’s life.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

RebuildingMe said:


> I suggest you reread the posts on this very thread. Basically by the ones who, of course, liked your comment. It’s a real threat. As someone that went through BS accusations, women can destroy a man’s life.


This is true. 

It is also true that sometimes there are just other areas of the world where people haven’t lost their minds and can still have friendly conversations in public. I know my area seems to be ok and not insane… for the most part or at least what I’ve seen.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> So they have no agency whatsoever and were bound for life, right? Like poor little babies....


They have agency, whether or not they act on it.
However, that's not the topic on hand. 
I see it as evidenced of a damaged woman.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

LATERILUS79 said:


> This is true.
> 
> It is also true that sometimes there are just other areas of the world where people haven’t lost their minds and can still have friendly conversations in public. I know my area seems to be ok and not insane… for the most part or at least what I’ve seen.


Seems to me it's just American women you need to be careful around


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> It's like the boys who ogled the cheerleader in high-school and overlooked girls who actually liked them. People who have unrealistic aspirations always have sour grapes.


I will note a difference. The guys ogling the cheerleaders are never going to get within a country mile of scoring with them.

Today, the average women on OLD and many who just got ran through by hot unscrupulous guys, actually did get to have sex with an Adonis and it has left them a bit screwed up when they can't get the stud they bedded to marry them.

This is not my situation but I'm trying to empathize.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> Seems to me it's just American women you need to be careful around


A trend that I'm currently following seems to be leading in this direction.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> It's like the boys who ogled the cheerleader in high-school and overlooked girls who actually liked them. People who have unrealistic aspirations always have sour grapes.


Sometimes the average guy gets the cheerleader 😊. Sometimes the cheerleader likes the average guy. 

Cant win if dont play the game


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> The guys ogling the cheerleaders are never going to get within a country mile of scoring with them


Not universally true. 😐


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

Rus47 said:


> Not universally true. 😐


Would you care to run through the percentages?


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> They have agency, whether or not they act on it.
> However, that's not the topic on hand.
> I see it as evidenced of a damaged woman.


Fair enough. When's the last time you did OLD? Decent women who are looking for decent men have to sort through ****bois and red pilled asshats. 

People can either deal with things or cry about it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rus47 said:


> Not universally true. 😐


Almost universally and the exception only proves the rule.

I'm an idealistic and romantic fool but I can't ignore the reality.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> Seems to me it's just American women you need to be careful around


I don't think that's a fair statement at all. Assholes are assholes no matter where they cone from.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> Fair enough. When's the last time you did OLD? Decent women who are looking for decent men have to sort through ****bois and red pilled asshats.
> 
> People can either deal with things or cry about it.


I work too many hours to socialize at all.
To be able to give away 75% of what I earn, I have to work 80+hours/week.
But that's my situation.

A lot of the douche bags you mention are what is available, because many of the good men don't do clubbing or OLD, because they know that when they go out or online they will be going home or offline alone. They are often absent from the dating marketplace, because they do not see themselves as somebody a woman wants to talk to.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> Fair enough. When's the last time you did OLD? Decent women who are looking for decent men have to sort through ****bois and red pilled asshats.
> 
> People can either deal with things or cry about it.


I honestly don’t see anyone crying about it. There is an issue, and smart men are beginning to avoid the OLD game. Pickens are slim for a lot of people. Knowledge is power and there’s a lot of knowledge out there on this subject.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Something a lot of people are overlooking here is that many men lead very lonely lives. If a man and a woman are together and they break up, she can go on Hinge or Tinder, get some attention, dates, get laid, whatever. What does the guy do at that point? I know, all the men here are certified playboys who get laid at the drop of a dime but most men are not so lucky. Statistics have shown that many men have nowhere to go post breakup. Go on Tinder and Hinge to be ignored by 99% of women, even ones we aren't all that attracted to. The average guy after a breakup is gonna be sitting home alone while his now ex has the option of dating, hooking up, whatever. That's just our culture. Ladies might have to sort through a lot of douchebags to find someone that will treat them right, but a lot of men are simply invisible. Being invisible to women isn't exactly a nice feeling.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> Would you care to run through the percentages?


Only takes one ticket to win the lottery. My wife was a cheerleader when we met in HS.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I will note a difference. The guys ogling the cheerleaders are never going to get within a country mile of scoring with them.
> 
> Today, the average women on OLD and many who just got ran through by hot unscrupulous guys, actually did get to have sex with an Adonis and it has left them a bit screwed up when they can't get the stud they bedded to marry them.
> 
> This is not my situation but I'm trying to empathize.


Who says they didn't get exactly what they went looking for? Maybe some women want a little sausage without having to cleanup the pigpen and decide they might as well pick the prize pig.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> I don't think that's a fair statement at all. Assholes are assholes no matter where they cone from.


There are trends that are definitely measurable however.

I do not have a dog in the fight but I'm observing a lot of men getting passports and it isn't because they're all misogynistic assholes.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> Only takes one ticket to win the lottery. My wife was a cheerleader when we met in HS.


This is like planning on winning the lottery to pay your bills. Just keep buying tickets, it only takes 1 to win, then that electric bill can be paid!


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> There are trends that are definitely measurable however.
> 
> I do not have a dog in the fight but I'm observing a lot of men getting passports and it isn't because they're all misogynistic assholes.


I did. Maybe I am biased but I don't think I'm terrible.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> I work too many hours to socialize at all.
> To be able to give away 75% of what I earn, I have to work 80+hours/week.
> But that's my situation.


So your opinion is based on heresay and not your own?. Ok then.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> Who says they didn't get exactly what they went looking for? Maybe some women want a little sausage without having to cleanup the pigpen and decide they might as well pick the prize pig.


The difference is the average guys aren't going to get a sniff while many average women will get the full bonus package.

It isn't equal at all and I'm just noting the difference.


----------



## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> Something a lot of people are overlooking here is that many men lead very lonely lives. If a man and a woman are together and they break up, she can go on Hinge or Tinder, get some attention, dates, get laid, whatever. What does the guy do at that point? I know, all the men here are certified playboys who get laid at the drop of a dime but most men are not so lucky. Statistics have shown that many men have nowhere to go post breakup. Go on Tinder and Hinge to be ignored by 99% of women, even ones we aren't all that attracted to. The average guy after a breakup is gonna be sitting home alone while his now ex has the option of dating, hooking up, whatever. That's just our culture. Ladies might have to sort through a lot of douchebags to find someone that will treat them right, but a lot of men are simply invisible. Being invisible to women isn't exactly a nice feeling.


That’s why men need male friends in real life. They need to be comfortable being alone. They can embrace their jobs, their friendships and their kids. They don’t have to be simps to these women, often beneath them in looks, and wait for them to roll though the men that are going to hit them and quit them.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> So your opinion is based on heresay and not your own?. Ok then.


My opinion is based on observation. My observation seems to line up pretty well with what is being said here.
Since my observations line up pretty well here, I'm good.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> I did. Maybe I am biased but I don't think I'm terrible.


Neither is one of my closest and longest friends. He's a better man than me objectively but he went overseas.


----------



## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

RebuildingMe said:


> That’s why men need male friends in real life. They need to be comfortable being alone. They can embrace their jobs, their friendships and their kids. They don’t have to be simps to these women, often beneath them in looks, and wait for them to roll though the men that are going to hit them and quit them.


I agree with you.
The best thing for a man to do for himself is to create a life independent of his need for a relationship and enjoy it.


----------



## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> I did. Maybe I am biased but I don't think I'm terrible.


Sadly, not all of us have that option….yet…


----------



## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> I don't think that's a fair statement at all. Assholes are assholes no matter where they cone from.


In this case ita mostly American women doing this crap


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

RebuildingMe said:


> Sadly, not all of us have that option….yet…


Hit me up if things change. The whole process can be tricky if you enter it blindly. A lot of guys getting scammed, etc. Easy to spot if you know what to look for though.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Numb26 said:


> In this case ita mostly American women doing this crap


🙄 Are there cushions on the victim chair or… ???

😉 I’m just hassling you. We have jokes.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> In this case ita mostly American women doing this crap


Well American men are tolerating it, aren't they? The ones led by their ****s anyway.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

RebuildingMe said:


> That’s why men need male friends in real life. They need to be comfortable being alone. They can embrace their jobs, their friendships and their kids. They don’t have to be simps to these women, often beneath them in looks, and wait for them to roll though the men that are going to hit them and quit them.


One of my oldest friends gave up on dating. Man lives life like he has some secret to happiness that most of us are unaware of. He goes to work at an easy job he enjoys, then comes home and spends all his free time on his hobbies. He's about 40 and hasn't had a date with a woman since his mid 20's. I love the ladies too much for a life like his but my buddy is content.


----------



## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> Well American men are tolerating it, aren't they? The ones led by their ****s anyway.


I agree with you that they are tolerating it, because they don't see other options for themselves.
However, the ones that are not tolerating it have simply made themselves absent.
But you may not realize that because they are absent of the dating scene.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> I agree with you.
> The best thing for a man to do for himself is to create a life independent of his need for a relationship and enjoy it.


Coincidentally, that's exactly what attracts many women. Unfortunately too many men have absolutely nothing interesting going on. 

Maybe that's why they have to settle for women who aren't interested in them.


----------



## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> Coincidentally, that's exactly what attracts many women. Unfortunately too many men have absolutely nothing interesting going on.
> 
> Maybe that's why they have to settle for women who aren't interested in them.


There is much truth that you say here.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> Well American men are tolerating it, aren't they? The ones led by their ****s anyway.


They're the ones mostly supporting the system they hate lol. Get on any social media and watch a below average looking girl post a selfie. Out come the legion of simps to offer her the world for a date. It's pathetic.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> Something a lot of people are overlooking here is that many men lead very lonely lives. If a man and a woman are together and they break up, she can go on Hinge or Tinder, get some attention, dates, get laid, whatever. What does the guy do at that point? I know, all the men here are certified playboys who get laid at the drop of a dime but most men are not so lucky. Statistics have shown that many men have nowhere to go post breakup. Go on Tinder and Hinge to be ignored by 99% of women, even ones we aren't all that attracted to. The average guy after a breakup is gonna be sitting home alone while his now ex has the option of dating, hooking up, whatever. That's just our culture. Ladies might have to sort through a lot of douchebags to find someone that will treat them right, but a lot of men are simply invisible. Being invisible to women isn't exactly a nice feeling.











How can you watch this and think.... "All Men are evil" ? #shorts







youtube.com


----------



## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> One of my oldest friends gave up on dating. Man lives life like he has some secret to happiness that most of us are unaware of. He goes to work at an easy job he enjoys, then comes home and spends all his free time on his hobbies. He's about 40 and hasn't had a date with a woman since his mid 20's. I love the ladies too much for a life like his but my buddy is content.


There are options to get your needs filled. Sounds like he’s got a stress free life.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> I agree with you that they are tolerating it, because they don't see other options for themselves.
> However, the ones that are not tolerating it have simply made themselves absent.
> But you may not realize that because they are absent of the dating scene.


Everything eventually selfcorrects, maybe that's what's required to reach equilibrium. Don't like the players, quit the game!

I did that as a woman when I didn't like the men in my pool. Sure I didn't get the longterm marriage I wanted, but I've been trying to make the best of my life for myself. Loneliness can be a truly terrible thing, and I feel for people, man or woman who go through life without love and companionship if they want that.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> They're the ones mostly supporting the system they hate lol. Get on any social media and watch a below average looking girl post a selfie. Out come the legion of simps to offer her the world for a date. It's pathetic.


Exactly! Don't feed the beast and cry that it bit you in the ass!


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> Exactly! Don't feed the beast and cry that it bit you in the ass!


I think most of them do it out of desperation. Maybe they don't get it. They aren't on here reading about the stuff, after all.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> How can you watch this and think.... "All Men are evil" ? #shorts
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will note that this is outside my experience. I'm blessed but a very large percentage of men are being run over and I fvcking care.

I've lost more than one friend to despair.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> I think most of them do it out of desperation. Maybe they don't get it. They aren't on here reading about the stuff, after all.


When you are trying not to die, it's amazing what lengths you will go to to keep yourself alive.

Despair, loneliness and hopelessness are very real killers.

Even getting fake affection you have to pay for will keep you alive for a while.😡


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Now imagine you’re a woman, it’s 6:30 am and still dark out, and you’re walking downtown in a big city on your way to work. 3-4 large men see you walk past, describe in vulgar language what they’d like to do to you, then when you don’t respond and walk faster they start following you calling you *** and **** and telling you you’re not allowed to say no.


Well thats why I think I have a unique perspective. Was I ever really concerned being hit on by guys as far as my safety, no. Even the huge guy, I was never worried that I would be assaulted. Yah he he was a lot bigger than me but I was never worried for real. But for the love of all that is holy, when I watch these douche bag guys yelling stupid stuff at women and then thinking whatever their reptilian brains think when they do this I seriously question the future of humanity. As far as sexual dynamics go men are powerful and in control. The fact that there are guys out there that do not realize the physical power dynamic plays a big role in how a woman experiences these interactions makes me sad for the future of humanity. 

The good news is this is not the majority of men. We are talking about a subset of men. What I would like to see is us men policing our own. When we see guys catcalling in a threatening way, step up and say something. 

My wife has had some experiences. One time in London England on her way to work a couple guys were catcalling her. I forget exactly what the exchange was but one guy said something about stretching her out. She stopped and demanded to see what he was talking about. Literally stood there yelling, "show me how big it is, come big man show me what you've got, you show me yours, I'll show you mine". Now obviously this guy just slowly faded into the background but it was a good point. These douches have big mouths when they are confident they won't get called out. Ladies if it is broad daylight, react with aggression. These little boys will find a hole to crawl into. 

So I recommend women do respond aggressively to these guys. They are boys not men, understand that. You turn and engage them. Say something like "Oh you want to show me your little needle **** let's see it big man, come on let's go around the corner and you can show me what you're going to rock my world with". I promise you they will shut up and try to fade away into nothing as fast as possible. My wife when this has happened to her likes to laugh loudly at them. These dudes are not mentally prepared for any kind of response from their target. Be loud, be nasty, be aggressive. 

If a guy is just saying good morning or good afternoon, just say the same back. Sometimes people are just friendly not creepy.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Numb26 said:


> In this case ita mostly American women doing this crap


Britain women or most western culture aren't?

I don't know for sure.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> I think most of them do it out of desperation. Maybe they don't get it. They aren't on here reading about the stuff, after all.


I get it. I was young, naive and idealistic too. I thought if I was good enough wife, I could have what I wanted, but that's not how the world works. At some point, you have to seek your own best interests and do something different, noones going to come save you from yourself. 

Btw, I don't think importing foreign women as wives will fix anything either. Many men SAY they want a nice woman, but they don't actually want that, it's too easy. I'm foreign born, well-educated, from a good conservative middle class family. I thought I married a decent man, he was shy and good-looking in a nerdy way, but look at how he treated me. He cheated and replaced me with a younger woman and left me alone in a foreign country to get on with my life not 6 months after a major surgery. His family turned his back on me after saying I was their daughter. 

I'm still attractive, even if I'm not the size I was at 19 (size 6 instead if 00). I could easily hate all Western men and ard blame them for my misfortune, but I choose not to.


----------



## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Well thats why I think I have a unique perspective. Was I ever really concerned being hit on by guys as far as my safety, no. Even the huge guy, I was never worried that I would be assaulted. Yah he he was a lot bigger than me but I was never worried for real. But for the love of all that is holy, when I watch these douche bag guys yelling stupid stuff at women and then thinking whatever their reptilian brains think when they do this I seriously question the future of humanity. As far as sexual dynamics go men are powerful and in control. The fact that there are guys out there that do not realize the physical power dynamic plays a big role in how a woman experiences these interactions makes me sad for the future of humanity.
> 
> The good news is this is not the majority of men. We are talking about a subset of men. What I would like to see is us men policing our own. When we see guys catcalling in a threatening way, step up and say something.
> 
> ...


Well, I’m not about to answer that way when it’s 4 big men and I’m alone on a dark street.

But I’m from Texas. I always smile and say hi. I’ve had older men tell me to smile, and honestly, I think it’s sweet. They’re telling me I’m pretty and I enjoy hearing that. Never understood why it upsets some women. 

I had to edit, because I dropped my phone and posted before I was done. Before anyone thinks I was being sneaky.😂


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Well thats why I think I have a unique perspective. Was I ever really concerned being hit on by guys as far as my safety, no. Even the huge guy, I was never worried that I would be assaulted. Yah he he was a lot bigger than me but I was never worried for real. But for the love of all that is holy, when I watch these douche bag guys yelling stupid stuff at women and then thinking whatever their reptilian brains think when they do this I seriously question the future of humanity. As far as sexual dynamics go men are powerful and in control. The fact that there are guys out there that do not realize the physical power dynamic plays a big role in how a woman experiences these interactions makes me sad for the future of humanity.
> 
> The good news is this is not the majority of men. We are talking about a subset of men. What I would like to see is us men policing our own. When we see guys catcalling in a threatening way, step up and say something.
> 
> ...


A woman in this situation, having her hand on a Kahr K9 subcompact, is the answer I prefer.

Mrs. Conan is that woman.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Well thats why I think I have a unique perspective. Was I ever really concerned being hit on by guys as far as my safety, no. Even the huge guy, I was never worried that I would be assaulted. Yah he he was a lot bigger than me but I was never worried for real. But for the love of all that is holy, when I watch these douche bag guys yelling stupid stuff at women and then thinking whatever their reptilian brains think when they do this I seriously question the future of humanity. As far as sexual dynamics go men are powerful and in control. The fact that there are guys out there that do not realize the physical power dynamic plays a big role in how a woman experiences these interactions makes me sad for the future of humanity.
> 
> The good news is this is not the majority of men. We are talking about a subset of men. What I would like to see is us men policing our own. When we see guys catcalling in a threatening way, step up and say something.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't recommend a woman engage them at all.
Too many of them are hostile enough to women to get physically aggressive.
They are often with friends, so he's going to want to show why he's Mr. Dominant male.

In my opinion, the woman shouldn't engage them at all and just let it go.
By not responding, there is no reward for the guy that would do this.
That's what he's really looking for, a response of any kind.


----------



## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Enigma32 said:


> Something a lot of people are overlooking here is that many men lead very lonely lives. If a man and a woman are together and they break up, she can go on Hinge or Tinder, get some attention, dates, get laid, whatever. What does the guy do at that point? I know, all the men here are certified playboys who get laid at the drop of a dime but most men are not so lucky. Statistics have shown that many men have nowhere to go post breakup. Go on Tinder and Hinge to be ignored by 99% of women, even ones we aren't all that attracted to. The average guy after a breakup is gonna be sitting home alone while his now ex has the option of dating, hooking up, whatever. That's just our culture. Ladies might have to sort through a lot of douchebags to find someone that will treat them right, but a lot of men are simply invisible. Being invisible to women isn't exactly a nice feeling.


The lesson is don’t be average. 

And that’s entirely within your control.
If you’re a fairly masculine man with some confidence, who generally has his **** together, has a decent job, built a good physique, can dress yourself well and can learn to be flirty and charming - you’re already above average.
And if you haven’t achieved the above, go focus on that. Your life will be much better.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> I wouldn't recommend a woman engage them at all.
> Too many of them are hostile enough to women to get physically aggressive.
> They are often with friends, so he's going to want to show why he's Mr. Dominant male.
> 
> ...


A hollow nine to his stinky guts is the correct response and one he will respond correctly to.😈


----------



## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> I get it. I was young, naive and idealistic too. I thought if I was good enough wife, I could have what I wanted, but that's not how the world works. At some point, you have to seek your own best interests and do something different, noones going to come save you from yourself.
> 
> Btw, I don't think importing foreign women as wives will fix anything either. Many men SAY they want a nice woman, but they don't actually want that, it's too easy. I'm foreign born, well-educated, from a good conservative middle class family. I thought I married a decent man, he was shy and good-looking in a nerdy way, but look at how he treated me. He cheated and replaced me with a younger woman and left me alone in a foreign country to get on with my life not 6 months after a major surgery. His family turned his back on me after saying I was their daughter.
> 
> I'm still attractive, even if I'm not the size I was at 19 (size 6 instead if 00). I could easily hate all Western men and ard blame them for my misfortune, but I choose not to.


Most of the men who marry foreign women are not looking for easy woman. 
They are just looking for respectful women who want to be wives.
Most women in cultures that are not Western are quite assertive in their own way.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> A hollow nine to his stinky guts is the correct response and one he will respond correctly to.😈


I generally agree.
It may take a generation, but making these men impotent will eventually take care of it.


----------



## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Well, I’m not about to answer that way when it’s 4 big men and I’m alone on a dark street.
> 
> But I’m from Texas. I always smile and say hi. I’ve had older men tell me to smile, and honestly, I think it’s sweet. They’re telling me I’m pretty and I enjoy hearing that. Never understood why it upsets some women.
> 
> I had to edit, because I dropped my phone and posted before I was done. Before anyone thinks I was being sneaky.😂


Touched, ma'am.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> Most of the men who marry foreign women are not looking for easy woman.
> They are just looking for respectful women who want to be wives.
> Most women in cultures that are not Western are quite assertive in their own way.


Filipino women are extremely feminine and also extremely assertive.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Well thats why I think I have a unique perspective. Was I ever really concerned being hit on by guys as far as my safety, no. Even the huge guy, I was never worried that I would be assaulted. Yah he he was a lot bigger than me but I was never worried for real. But for the love of all that is holy, when I watch these douche bag guys yelling stupid stuff at women and then thinking whatever their reptilian brains think when they do this I seriously question the future of humanity. As far as sexual dynamics go men are powerful and in control. The fact that there are guys out there that do not realize the physical power dynamic plays a big role in how a woman experiences these interactions makes me sad for the future of humanity.


It’s true, men are bigger and stronger and there is nothing stopping them from hurting us. It’s very scary to live in a world where you always have to be aware of your safety and afraid because you have to rely on the mercy of someone else. I think it’s hard for men to understand what that’s like. Maybe if there were a way to explain that feeling, they’d understand why some of us get so upset at the idea of being kept as submissives or are so defensive about our rights. It’s very scary, especially when you’ve seen what men can and will get away with the way I have.

NOTE: I’m on my phone and there were a bunch of autocorrect weirdness plus I had some grammar errors that I couldn’t live with. That is why I edited this, I’m not being sneaky.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Touched, ma'am.


Lol. That was supposed to say "touche "


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> Filipino women are extremely feminine and also extremely assertive.


I've had dealings with both Thai and Filipino women.
They both have the same mindset.
They are very tolerant of men with flaws, except one.
If they are unfaithful, they get turned into butterflies as the women put it.
*snip


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Lol. That was supposed to say "touche "


Nope. You're a perv now and we have proof!😂


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It’s true, men are bigger and stronger and there is nothing stopping them from hurting us. It’s very scary to live in a world where you always have to be aware of your safety and afraid because you have to rely on the mercy of someone else. I think it’s hard for men to understand what that’s like. Maybe if there were a way to explain that feeling, they’d understand why we get so upset at the idea of being kept as submissives or are so defensive about our rights. It’s very scary, especially when you’ve seen what men can and will get away with the way I have.


Men are actually assaulted more often than women - and yes, that is by other men. I know it is not usually being done by women. 

We are well aware of what it feels like to be smaller and weaker. Every last one of us. Most of us have grown up where eventually we've had to solve a problem through violence. It's pretty much a rite of passage. 

I am big. I do not need to fear 95% of the male population. 

That's easy to get around. Just get more men. I've been jumped countless times in my late teens/early adulthood. 

There is no reason to explain the feeling you describe. We know exactly what it feels like. Unfortunately, the men that do terrorize women simply do not care.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Enigma32 said:


> Something a lot of people are overlooking here is that many men lead very lonely lives. If a man and a woman are together and they break up, she can go on Hinge or Tinder, get some attention, dates, get laid, whatever. What does the guy do at that point? I know, all the men here are certified playboys who get laid at the drop of a dime but most men are not so lucky. Statistics have shown that many men have nowhere to go post breakup. Go on Tinder and Hinge to be ignored by 99% of women, even ones we aren't all that attracted to. The average guy after a breakup is gonna be sitting home alone while his now ex has the option of dating, hooking up, whatever. That's just our culture. Ladies might have to sort through a lot of douchebags to find someone that will treat them right, but a lot of men are simply invisible. Being invisible to women isn't exactly a nice feeling.


I think you don't put all your eggs in one basket and especially if that basket is being coupled up. Most people aren't left entirely alone when they break up with someone. Someone who's been putting forth any social effort at all should have been maintaining friends and family and work friends and online friends and if they're smart, a dog.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> Most of the men who marry foreign women are not looking for easy woman.
> They are just looking for respectful women who want to be wives.
> Most women in cultures that are not Western are quite assertive in their own way.


I guess I just got unlucky , huh? Btw, I'm no pushover, so if you're implying I'm not assertive, you're barking up the wrong tree.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Men are actually assaulted more often than women - and yes, that is by other men. I know it is not usually being done by women.
> 
> We are well aware of what it feels like to be smaller and weaker. Every last one of us. Most of us have grown up where eventually we've had to solve a problem through violence. It's pretty much a rite of passage.
> 
> ...


There is a different vulnerability that women experience.

It is on more than one level.

You probably won't know it without experiencing it 

I have an interesting history that allowed me to get the experience first hand.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> I guess I just got unlucky , huh? Btw, I'm no pushover, so if you're implying I'm not assertive, you're barking up the wrong tree.


Actually, I believe he was implying the opposite.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

RebuildingMe said:


> OLD is a necessary evil because a guy meeting a girl organically is almost impossible these days. #metoo


God Damn it, no it is not. This is people reading social media and thinking it is reality. Men and women still meet at the gym or bar or work or the hiking group they join or whatever. What has changed is people have used the internet as an excuse to be lazy. People are such freaking snowflakes. 

Yah if you're 5'-5" tall and 200lbs with bad hygiene you are not going to get the fitness model on the treadmill next to you, sorry welcome to reality. #socialmediaisnottherealworld

It is weird that millions of men and women get together every year. 

Just because some **** on youtube's wife left him for a better looking more successful man doesn't mean all women will do the same.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> God Damn it, no it is not. This is people reading social media and thinking it is reality. Men and women still meet at the gym or bar or work or the hiking group they join or whatever. What has changed is people have used the internet as an excuse to be lazy. People are such freaking snowflakes.
> 
> Yah if you're 5'-5" tall and 200lbs with bad hygiene you are not going to get the fitness model on the treadmill next to you, sorry welcome to reality. #socialmediaisnottherealworld
> 
> ...


It should also be noted that millions of men and women do NOT get together every year. Or if they do, it just falls apart soon enough. There are a lot of people that are being left behind and this thread I'd wager is about them more than the guys who find someone.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Something to think about. About 66% of all divorced people remarry within 4 years. So apparently a lot of men and women are finding each other.


----------



## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Well, I left this thread because my ex gf was dropping by to give me stuff back…and…well….ya know. Anyway, saves me a trip to the massage parlor 🤣

I wonder if she felt scared all alone at a strong man’s house all by her little lonesome? Wow, apparently she put her life at risk and I wouldn’t have known it if not for this thread


----------



## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

EleGirl said:


> Something to think about. About 66% of all divorced people remarry within 4 years. So apparently a lot of men and women are finding each other.


Yes, on OLD, FB from way back in high school, hook ups at work. Organically strangers that meet in public, probably not too many.


----------



## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> I guess I just got unlucky , huh? Btw, I'm no pushover, so if you're implying I'm not assertive, you're barking up the wrong tree.


No. What I'm implying is that non-Western women want the traditional 1950's marriage arrangement of the husband being the provider and the mother being the caregiver and the homemaker.
They also want to be the helpmate to the husband, so he can work to provide for the family, so she can focus on raising her children.
They also like to affirm their husbands and make them think they are able to slay dragons.
It seems to work, because Asians have the highest net incomes and net worth of anybody in America.
But don't for a second think that these women do not know how to stand up for themselves.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> I agree with you.
> The best thing for a man to do for himself is to create a life independent of his need for a relationship and enjoy it.





TXTrini said:


> Coincidentally, that's exactly what attracts many women. Unfortunately too many men have absolutely nothing interesting going on.
> 
> Maybe that's why they have to settle for women who aren't interested in them.


There's an old saying that the best time to find someone is when you're not looking. I think this is true for both men and women. Be independent, be your best self, live a full life. And at some point, the right person will come along.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Enigma32 said:


> It should also be noted that millions of men and women do NOT get together every year. Or if they do, it just falls apart soon enough. There are a lot of people that are being left behind and this thread I'd wager is about them more than the guys who find someone.


Not every relationship is meant to be forever. Dating is still a thing. This, the world is ending, rhetoric is embarrassing to watch. I feel like guys running around acting like respectfully approaching a lady is a ticket to a harassment charge is really just a ticket to loneliness, or an excuse for failure.

I want to edit to add, I've been dating my wife since i was 15 so I might have no idea what I am talking about.


----------



## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

DudeInProgress said:


> The lesson is don’t be average.
> 
> And that’s entirely within your control.
> If you’re a fairly masculine man with some confidence, who generally has his **** together, has a decent job, built a good physique, can dress yourself well and can learn to be flirty and charming - you’re already above average.
> And if you haven’t achieved the above, go focus on that. Your life will be much better.





cormierdavid12 said:


> WOMEN AINT **** ANYMORE


Now this is what happens when a “average guy“ is able to recognize the realities of modern male / female sexual dynamics - but is either incapable or unwilling to do the above.

This is a perfect example of the men who refuse to take ownership and personal responsibility for his own improvement and social/sexual competence as a man.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RebuildingMe said:


> Well, I left this thread because my ex gf was dropping by to give me stuff back…and…well….ya know. Anyway, saves me a trip to the massage parlor 🤣
> 
> I wonder if she felt scared all alone at a strong man’s house all by her little lonesome? Wow, apparently she put her life at risk and I wouldn’t have known it if not for this thread


Where on this thread has any woman said that your ex-gf should be scared because she was at your hours... alone "at a strong man’s house all by her little lonesome"? Seriously, that's such a gross distortion of anything that's been said on this thread.


----------



## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

EleGirl said:


> Where on this thread has any woman said that your ex-gf should be scared because she was at your hours... alone "at a strong man’s house all by her little lonesome"? Seriously, that's such a gross distortion of anything that's been said on this thread.


Read through the posts. Men are stronger therefore women are in constant danger. Women need eyes on the back of their heads. Read them. Clear as day.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> Something to think about. About 66% of all divorced people remarry within 4 years. So apparently a lot of men and women are finding each other.


And everyone here knows the divorce statistics for 2nd marriages. They aren't finding one another for long. Not most of them anyway.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

RebuildingMe said:


> Yes, on OLD, FB from way back in high school, hook ups at work. Organically strangers that meet in public, probably not too many.


There has to be a recent study on this. I would wager the majority of LTRs come from analog irl meeting. Could be wrong, just my gut.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> No. What I'm implying is that non-Western women want the traditional 1950's marriage arrangement of the husband being the provider and the mother being the caregiver and the homemaker.
> They also want to be the helpmate to the husband, so he can work to provide for the family, so she can focus on raising her children.
> They also like to affirm their husbands and make them think they are able to slay dragons.
> *It seems to work, because Asians have the highest net incomes and net worth of anybody in America.
> But don't for a second think that these women do not know how to stand up for themselves.*


Also some of the lowest divorce rates. As to people thinking these ladies don't stand up for themselves, it just shows they don't spend much time around them. My wife is tiny but she can be scary!


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

RebuildingMe said:


> Read through the posts. Men are stronger therefore women are in constant danger. Women need eyes on the back of their heads. Read them. Clear as day.


Wrong there partner. Being out by themselves and having belligerent men around is very disconcerting.

Women actually love being around men they know they can trust with their safety and that includes exes.

I've interposed myself between a gal or two and would be morons.

Those women would have been screwed, literally if they wanted it or not, had I not been there.

No one was referring to all men as dangerous to women.

It is really important to keep a straight and honest conversation going.

I've recently upbraided some women fabricating stories and we men should be no different in our accountability.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RebuildingMe said:


> Read through the posts. Men are stronger therefore women are in constant danger. Women need eyes on the back of their heads. Read them. Clear as day.


You were talking about your ex. Has nothing to do with what some women, myself included, have shared about things they have experienced.

Most men are not dangerous. But there is a small percentage of men who are dangerous and who seek out women to attack. It's a fact. Why would you be all butt hurt about women acknowledging that this has happened to them? Not one woman on this thread has accused all men or most men of being a danger.


----------



## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> There has to be a recent study on this. I would wager the majority of LTRs come from analog irl meeting. Could be wrong, just my gut.


OLD is the most common way people meet now.

Online dating is the most popular way couples meet | Stanford News


----------



## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> There's an old saying that the best time to find someone is when you're not looking. I think this is true for both men and women. Be independent, be your best self, live a full life. And at some point, the right person will come along.





RebuildingMe said:


> Says the dude who’s been married over 20 years. You and I are not speaking to women with the same purpose in mind.


There's some wisdom here. 

This was my modus operandi when I was a single guy. Talk to women vs hitting on them or coming into a conversation with a goal in mind. Highly effective. 

The times I WAS rejected was when I obviously had a goal in mind and my eyes were too glazed over to keep my sh[t together. 

What this did was give the women I was talking to the opportunity to give me the go ahead (the look) if they were interested. More often than not she was interested, because I was genuinely interacting on a human level, like I was already off the market and not just sniffing around.


----------



## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> No. What I'm implying is that non-Western women want the traditional 1950's marriage arrangement of the husband being the provider and the mother being the caregiver and the homemaker.
> They also want to be the helpmate to the husband, so he can work to provide for the family, so she can focus on raising her children.
> They also like to affirm their husbands and make them think they are able to slay dragons.
> It seems to work, because Asians have the highest net incomes and net worth of anybody in America.
> But don't for a second think that these women do not know how to stand up for themselves.


Some do, some don't. They're like any other woman, varied in desires. How do I know this? I'm mostly East Asian. 

In any case, there are many American women doing just that everyday, some of whom get screwed over by men who still aren't satisfied.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> OLD is the most common way people meet now.
> 
> Online dating is the most popular way couples meet | Stanford News


I don't know but I'll take your word for it. @farsidejunky also seems to be inclined to think OLD is fairly prevalent.

I'm for mostly doing away with it myself.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

RebuildingMe said:


> Read through the posts. Men are stronger therefore women are in constant danger. Women need eyes on the back of their heads. Read them. Clear as day.


Unfortunately it is a reality that there are some men who lack self-control and composure when they are rejected when they try to give some women attention.
Often there are no men around to protect them.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

Here’s the exact quote. Notice the words “men”, “us”and “always”. Same nonsense, different day.

*It’s true, men are bigger and stronger and there is nothing stopping them from hurting us. It’s very scary to live in a world where you always have to be aware of your safety and afraid because you have to rely on the mercy of someone else.*


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> Some do, some don't. They're like any other woman, varied in desires. How do I know this? I'm mostly East Asian.
> 
> In any case, there are many American women doing just that everyday, some of whom get screwed over by men who still aren't satisfied.


In non-Western cultures, that's what they majority of the women want.
it's their culture to want it. 
If you go through the weeds, you can find singular cases that go against the generalities. If those singular cases nullifies the generalities, than not a single point of view of ours has validity.
If you say that some men are rapists and I find a single man somewhere in the world who has never raped a woman, then by your reasoning, there are no such thing as men that are rapists.
That's your reasoning.
The generality is that most non-Western women want to be housewives, mothers, and helpmates to their husbands. 
Most Western women don't want that. Consequently, many of the men go seek women who want that, so they marry non-Western women.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

RebuildingMe said:


> Here’s the exact quote. Notice the words “men”, “us”and “always”. Same nonsense, different day.
> 
> *It’s true, men are bigger and stronger and there is nothing stopping them from hurting us. It’s very scary to live in a world where you always have to be aware of your safety and afraid because you have to rely on the mercy of someone else.*


And that was in the context of being alone with belligerent men acting belligerent.

You're wrong on this point.

She did not use that in the context of good men including her husband which she has indicated is a very good man that she loves being with and feels safe with.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> And that was in the context of being alone with belligerent men acting belligerent.
> 
> You're wrong on this point.
> 
> She did not use that in the context of good men including her husband which she has indicated is a very good man that she loves being with and feels safe with.


Okay. Maybe I took it wrong…but…the source of the words speaks volumes, if you catch my drift.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> In non-Western cultures, that's what they majority of the women want.
> it's their culture to want it.
> If you go through the weeds, you can find singular cases that go against the generalities. If those singular cases nullifies the generalities, than not a single point of view of ours has validity.
> If you say that some men are rapists and I find a single man somewhere in the world who has never raped a woman, then by your reasoning, there are no such thing as men that are rapists.
> ...


I get this analogy and I don't know if it's totally true about western women but I am comfortable saying it is far more prevalent and trending with western women than non.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

RebuildingMe said:


> Okay. Maybe I took it wrong…but…the source of the words speaks volumes, if you catch my drift.


I get it but we need to hold to the same standards we require.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

ConanHub said:


> I get this analogy and I don't know if it's totally true about western women but I am comfortable saying it is far more prevalent and trending with western women than non.


I think I know the general opinion of the board, on the female side of the board if I said that women should stay home to be wives to their husbands and mothers to their children, so their husbands can go out and work.
I think I have a pretty good guesstimate as to how that would go here.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> In non-Western cultures, that's what they majority of the women want.
> it's their culture to want it.
> If you go through the weeds, you can find singular cases that go against the generalities. If those singular cases nullifies the generalities, than not a single point of view of ours has validity.
> If you say that some men are rapists and I find a single man somewhere in the world who has never raped a woman, then by your reasoning, there are no such thing as men that are rapists.
> ...


Now you're twisting my words to suit your purpose, nowhere did I ever allude to all men doing anything. It's amazing you can speak for all nonwestern women, like we are some kind of monoculture. 

BTW, using rape to make your point is disingenuous and inflammatory. Did you mean to shut down the conversation?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> I think I know the general opinion of the board, on the female side of the board if I said that women should stay home to be wives to their husbands and mothers to their children, so their husbands can go out and work.
> I think I have a pretty good guesstimate as to how that would go here.


Well, you may not be wrong but you also might get a few surprises.

Western men's testosterone has been dropping pretty radically so maybe if we'd all grab our nuts, lift some fing heavy weights and start tending to business, western women maybe wouldn't be so uncertain of us?


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> Now you're twisting my words to suit your purpose, nowhere did I ever allude to all men doing anything. It's amazing you can speak for all nonwestern women, like we are some kind of monoculture.
> 
> BTW, using rape to make your point is disingenuous and inflammatory. Did you mean to shut down the conversation?


I just said that was the reasoning you were using.
Can you find a woman in a non-Western culture that doesn't want to be a wife and mother?
Absolutely you can. However, if singular cases or small percentages that go against the grain nullifies generalities, than no generality can be made because it is by default nullified because you can find singular cases of anything that goes against the grain.
That's all I said.

If singular cases or small fractions nullifies generalities, that applies to the topic of rape.
You don't think I can find a man somewhere in the world or a percentage of men in the world who has never raped a woman, nullifying the idea that men can rape women?


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> I just said that was the reasoning you were using.
> Can you find a woman in a non-Western culture that doesn't want to be a wife and mother?
> Absolutely you can. However, if singular cases or small percentages that go against the grain nullifies generalities, than no generality can be made because it is by default nullified because you can find singular cases of anything that goes against the grain.
> 
> That's all I said.


Fun fact: When I was on datiing sites overseas, there were a lot of transgender women also on the same sites. The best and really only way to pick some of them out was to check their profile thoroughly. Every single female of appropriate age on the site will say they want children...except the transgender women. Almost none of the straight, CIS gender women will say they do not want kids, so if the profile says no kids or they leave that part blank, you can be almost 100% sure she's transgender. Trust me when I say that is the most reliable way to tell.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> I get it. I was young, naive and idealistic too. I thought if I was good enough wife, I could have what I wanted, but that's not how the world works. At some point, you have to seek your own best interests and do something different, noones going to come save you from yourself.
> 
> Btw, I don't think importing foreign women as wives will fix anything either. Many men SAY they want a nice woman, but they don't actually want that, it's too easy. *I'm foreign born, well-educated, from a good conservative middle class family. I thought I married a decent man, he was shy and good-looking in a nerdy way, but look at how he treated me. He cheated and replaced me with a younger woman and left me alone in a foreign country to get on with my life not 6 months after a major surgery.* His family turned his back on me after saying I was their daughter.
> 
> I'm still attractive, even if I'm not the size I was at 19 (size 6 instead if 00). I could easily hate all Western men and ard blame them for my misfortune, but I choose not to.


Yeah, you got the shaft there. Figuratively and not literally considering what you said about his work in the bedroom. Sadly, I read a lot of bad stories from ladies coming here from other countries just to have their American husband change things up on them when they arrive.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> Fun fact: When I was on datiing sites overseas, there were a lot of transgender women also on the same sites. The best and really only way to pick some of them out was to check their profile thoroughly. Every single female of appropriate age on the site will say they want children...except the transgender women. Almost none of the straight, CIS gender women will say they do not want kids, so if the profile says no kids or they leave that part blank, you can be almost 100% sure she's transgender. Trust me when I say that is the most reliable way to tell.


And helpful.✅


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

Enigma32 said:


> Fun fact: When I was on datiing sites overseas, there were a lot of transgender women also on the same sites. The best and really only way to pick some of them out was to check their profile thoroughly. Every single female of appropriate age on the site will say they want children...except the transgender women. Almost none of the straight, CIS gender women will say they do not want kids, so if the profile says no kids or they leave that part blank, you can be almost 100% sure she's transgender. Trust me when I say that is the most reliable way to tell.


I believe you.
Some of those Asian girl-boys are very convincing. 
Safe enough to have a conversation with, but don't get too drunk and then go back to the hotel room with them.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> I get it. I was young, naive and idealistic too. I thought if I was good enough wife, I could have what I wanted, but that's not how the world works. At some point, you have to seek your own best interests and do something different, noones going to come save you from yourself.
> 
> Btw, I don't think importing foreign women as wives will fix anything either. Many men SAY they want a nice woman, but they don't actually want that, it's too easy. I'm foreign born, well-educated, from a good conservative middle class family. I thought I married a decent man, he was shy and good-looking in a nerdy way, but look at how he treated me. He cheated and replaced me with a younger woman and left me alone in a foreign country to get on with my life not 6 months after a major surgery. His family turned his back on me after saying I was their daughter.
> 
> I'm still attractive, even if I'm not the size I was at 19 (size 6 instead if 00). I could easily hate all Western men and ard blame them for my misfortune, but I choose not to.


I'm sorry for your experience. 
It sucks when you want to be that traditional housewife, but your husband has been encultured to think that putting you to work will result in less work for him. 
He's not a man when he does that, I will tell you that.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> I believe you.
> *Some of those Asian girl-boys are very convincing.*
> Safe enough to have a conversation with, but don't get too drunk and then go back to the hotel room with them.


Man, you do not even know 🤣 . I remember walking around the Mall of Asia with my wife then GF at the time and there was a heart stoppingly beautiful woman walking towards us. Shapely, petite and just plain gorgeous. When "she" got close enough, I noticed a very prominent Adam's apple. That was THE only way I'd have known. She was one of the best looking women I've ever seen. Most likely it was an escort trolling the mall for foreign guys.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Enigma32 said:


> Yeah, you got the shaft there. Figuratively and not literally considering what you said about his work in the bedroom. Sadly, I read a lot of bad stories from ladies coming here from other countries just to have their American husband change things up on them when they arrive.


I know,right?! I was too embarrassed to tell anyone, you don't expect a man to do that! I thought something was wrong with me until I read other ladies experiences on here. Things didn't change until a few years after we married, thankfully we had no children, so I didn't stick around after DD. 

While it's reassuring to know I'm not alone in that, it really sucks to have that happen especially when there's nothing for them to go back. 



Gregory Chaucery said:


> I'm sorry for your experience.
> It sucks when you want to be that traditional housewife, but your husband has been encultured to think that putting you to work will result in less work for him.
> He's not a man when he does that, I will tell you that.


Thank you. We didn't want children, but we're traditional otherwise. I took care of our home, budgeted our finances, cooked gourmet meals, etc. I supported him in his career, throughout job loss, family deaths, prepared meals with his diet in mind(health issues), went back to work when he got laid off so we wouldn't lose our house while he was depressed, worked overtime while he was ****ing around. 

Anyway, I've made peace with that, but am not inclined to remarry or be the supportive helpmate again, even though I have a really great bf now. I discourage any woman to put anyone else's interests above their own, with the sole exception of their children. Times have changed and it's not worth the risk.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

TXTrini said:


> I know,right?! I was too embarrassed to tell anyone, you don't expect a man to do that! I thought something was wrong with me until I read other ladies experiences on here. Things didn't change until a few years after we married, thankfully we had no children, so I didn't stick around after DD.
> 
> While it's reassuring to know I'm not alone in that, it really sucks to have that happen especially when there's nothing for them to go back.
> 
> ...


Or at least, let the man prove himself that he is a man before you become willing to be a traditional housewife.
I would agree that no woman should should assume that her husband is willing to pay the price for traditionalism, unless he shows himself willing to do so.

My sister had a husband like that.
She was willing to work two jobs to see him through school, with the expectation that once done school he would become the breadwinner.
Instead, she ended up finding out that when he was done school, his intention was to use his extra time on non-productive hobbies.
He thought he had made in the shade.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> Or at least, let the man prove himself that he is a man before you become willing to be a traditional housewife.
> I would agree that no woman should should assume that her husband is willing to pay the price for traditionalism, unless he shows himself willing to do so.
> 
> My sister had a husband like that.
> ...


How long does that take though? I was married for 12.5years, together for 20. Sometimes people change and not for the better, mid life crises are cliche for a reason. 

I hope your sister left him or he changed for the better. Honestly, I think there are too many immature people masquerading as adults who need to grow the heck up.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

RebuildingMe said:


> Read through the posts. Men are stronger therefore women are in constant danger. Women need eyes on the back of their heads. Read them. Clear as day.


Not all women are saying this. Only a couple in this thread - but I do know what posts you are referring to. 

This is a very important distinction. 

It drives me crazy (if that hasn't been obvious before) when I read "all men do this" or if it is obviously implied that "all men" was meant in a post, so I am very careful when I read what I see from the women so as not to fall into the same trap in reverse. 

I get frustration when reading the posts you speak of. I feel the same way - but it's important not to do it in reverse. There is a difference between seeing challenging posts that make you think from a different perspective and posts that have no merit and make sweeping generalizations.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Not all women are saying this. Only a couple in this thread - but I do know what posts you are referring to.
> 
> This is a very important distinction.
> 
> ...


A large percentage of the posts by men on this thread (and many threads here on TAM) post very negative things about women in the same sweeping manner as though all women, or the vast majority of women do whatever negative thing is being talked about. Qualifying statements so that they are much more specific and address the small portion of the population that they apply to would improve TAM a LOT.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> A large percentage of the posts by men on this thread (and many threads here on TAM) post very negative things about women in the same sweeping manner as though all women, or the vast majority of women do whatever negative thing is being talked about. Qualifying statements so that they are much more specific and address the small portion of the population that they apply to would improve TAM a LOT.


Hence the reason why I bring it up and call it out when I see it. 

It's no secret that I despise modern feminism and everything it stands for. In fact, it ruined the person I thought I knew (my exwife) and I'll be damned if I allow its poison to ruin my daughter. 

But I'll be damned if I watch and say nothing if I see it happen in reverse. I don't mind people skirting the line - just don't cross into the realm of "all men" "all women". At that point, nothing productive is discussed. 

I won't see everything because I'm going to understand the male perspective, but I'm going to pay attention to the best of my ability and say something if I feel a line is being crossed. 

I strongly believe that the majority of men and women on TAM are of the "normal" and "non-bitter" variety. Sure, we've all be burned, but we aren't going to allow a few bad apples destroy an entire gender. I just think most men and women here don't feel like getting into the weeds. It's not worth the fight. 

Clearly, I don't mind getting into the weeds.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> Or at least, let the man prove himself that he is a man before you become willing to be a traditional housewife.
> I would agree that no woman should should assume that her husband is willing to pay the price for traditionalism, unless he shows himself willing to do so.
> 
> My sister had a husband like that.
> ...


I went through something similar.

The thing is that if a woman is unable to support herself and her child(ren), what is she supposed to do if the guy she marries does not live up to what he told her he wanted... a traditional marriage, wife, children, etc.? People change. Situations change. What's she supposed to do if he cheats, and she feels that divorce is her only option? Or what about in situations where the husband has serious illness or dies? She has to have a way to support herself and her children.

ETA: Sometimes a wife ends up having to not only support her children and herself. Sometimes if her husband develops a health issue, she had to support him as well.


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## Gregory Chaucery (12 mo ago)

EleGirl said:


> I went through something similar.
> 
> The thing is that if a woman is unable to support herself and her child(ren), what is she supposed to do if the guy she marries does not live up to what he told her he wanted... a traditional marriage, wife, children, etc.? People change. Situations change. What's she supposed to do if he cheats, and she feels that divorce is her only option? Or what about in situations where the husband has serious illness or dies? She has to have a way to support her shelf and her children.
> 
> ETA: Sometimes a wife ends up having to not only support her children and herself. Sometimes if her husband develops a health issue, she had to support him as well.


That's why marriages used to be family affairs. While the man or woman would all googly-eyed about their prospective spouse, their family would be the skeptics and look for indicators that may indicate they are not suitable.

If it comes to children, I am a hardcore traditionalist. I do believe the traditionalist roles are best when it comes to providing a home for children. I can personally back my claim to be willing to work 120 hours/week if that what it takes to ensure a family is provided for. 

However, if children are not, or no longer an issue, I can be very flexible about splitting up the home duties, with a slight greater burden being put on the male in regards to the overall division of home and work life.

The man should know how to keep a house and to cook and laundry. These are not strictly woman's work.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gregory Chaucery said:


> That's why marriages used to be family affairs. While the man or woman would all googly-eyed about their prospective spouse, their family would be the skeptics and look for indicators that may indicate they are not suitable.


There are plenty of cases in which the family's involvement ended with a very bad marriage for their child. It's not unusual at all.



Gregory Chaucery said:


> If it comes to children, I am a hardcore traditionalist. I do believe the traditionalist roles are best when it comes to providing a home for children. I can personally back my claim to be willing to work 120 hours/week if that what it takes to ensure a family is provided for.


I agree that traditional roles are good for children. But traditional roles are not always possible due to circumstances.

The idea of the husband going out to work all day leaving the wife home with the children for long hours was a new model that came to be during the 1950's in the middle class. The fact is that women had always worked. Before the industrial age, most men worked on farms. They took their sons, 4 years and older, out to the fields to work with them. Basically, the father trained and mostly raised the boys. The mother usually stayed at the home, taking care of any babies and their daughters. The mother taught the daughter how to cook, can food, clean, make clothing, take care of the kitchen garden, feed any farm animals that were kept near the house, etc. During planting season and harvesting the women and girls often went out to work in the fields because a lot of labor was needed.

I've read books written in the late 1800's lamenting the changes occurring going into the industrial age. Eric Ericson has some writing on this topic. He lamented that with fathers going to work in factories, it would seriously hurt their sons. Since the fathers would no longer be raising the boys, they would not get enough mentoring from their father and be seriously harmed. I tend to agree with this.

My family in Italy (maternal grandfather's family) lived by this model. They have very extensive farmland that has been in the family since at least the Middle Ages. Every day, other than during school hours, the boys go out their father to tend the crops. Their mothers stay home with the female children and babies. The mothers also run the family business... the family exports produce all over Europe. The women make the sales, manage the finances, make sure that the produce is packaged and shipped. Actually, one of my aunts is in her 80's now. She's the financial guru of the family. They also take care of their kitchen gardens and farm animals. And of course, the child work in the family business as well.

My maternal grandmother's family lived in NYC. They were Italian immigrants. They owned a restaurant in NYC and a seamstress business. All the family worked in the family businesses. That included all the women.

My maternal grandparents told us that they only made it through the great depression with their 5 daughters because they both worked. When one did not have a job, the other did. My grandfather worked as an engineer in factories. My grandmother worked as a seamstress.

My father's family were Irish. the women going back several generations all worked either at family businesses & some of them worked as nurses. The children all grew up involved in the businesses as well.

I believe that in our current society today, the problem is that fathers are not involved in their children's lives enough. I think that it would often be better for both parents to work to financially support the family, thus neither of them needs to work long hours. The children can have a lot of time with both parents.

The idea that the 1950's model of family being "traditional" is a bit short sighted since that's not the model that existed in human society for most of human history.

In today's world there is almost no housework since our homes are full of appliances. No more washing clothing on a scrub board or at the river. We used to do laundry by hand on scrub boards when I was child... thank goodness for washing machines.  Food is readily available in abundance at grocery stores. Clothing and everything else we need is readily available at stores, or via Amazon. To be honest, being home all day while the children are at school is about as boring as boring can be.



Gregory Chaucery said:


> However, if children are not, or no longer an issue, I can be very flexible about splitting up the home duties, with a slight greater burden being put on the male in regards to the overall division of home and work life.
> 
> The man should know how to keep a house and to cook and laundry. These are not strictly woman's work.


I agree that men should know how to take care of a home, cook, etc. It's their home too.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I wish I could give this post more likes!


EleGirl said:


> The idea of the husband going out to work all day leaving the wife home with the children for long hours was a new model that came to be during the 1950's in the middle class. ....
> 
> I believe that in our current society today, the problem is that fathers are not involved in their children's lives enough. I think that it would often be better for both parents to work to financially support the family, thus neither of them needs to work long hours. The children can have a lot of time with both parents.


I am hopeful that things are moving in a better direction.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> Well American men are tolerating it, aren't they? The ones led by their ****s anyway.


What has happened to American men is a whole other thread. 🤣🤣🤣


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Britain women or most western culture aren't?
> 
> I don't know for sure.


I would say Western women in general and American women in particular.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

RebuildingMe said:


> Says the dude who’s been married over 20 years. You and I are not speaking to women with the same purpose in mind.


Id say there is probably a large percentage of truth in that statement but on the other hand I never wear my wedding ring so in some situations she never really knows.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> Neither is one of my closest and longest friends. He's a better man than me objectively but he went overseas.


I wonder if he had success there. Just hope he doesnt fall for woman fishing for a green card. I have more than one acquaintance who were very sorry they found one of those


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rus47 said:


> I wonder if he had success there. Just hope he doesnt fall for woman fishing for a green card. I have more than one acquaintance who were very sorry they found one of those


They've been married for years and are expecting their second child.

I had my reservations at first as well but she has put all doubt to rest and continues to take excellent care of my friend.

I do have a laugh at him though. My grandchildren can marry his children and we are the same age.😉


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> I wonder if he had success there. Just hope he doesnt fall for woman fishing for a green card. I have more than one acquaintance who were very sorry they found one of those


The green card hunters are generally easy to spot. My wife is also Filipino. There is a big Filipino/American community here where I live. Plenty of guys marry Filipino ladies and live a good life. We generally just keep to ourselves. The ones that get burned are the loudest so everyone's heard all about them. I personally know several very happy couples. They're honestly the happiest married couples I know.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Enigma32 said:


> The green card hunters are generally easy to spot. My wife is also Filipino. There is a big Filipino/American community here where I live. Plenty of guys marry Filipino ladies and live a good life. We generally just keep to ourselves. The ones that get burned are the loudest so everyone's heard all about them. I personally know several very happy couples. They're honestly the happiest married couples I know.


Well the guys I knew who got stung were stung by women of that ethnicity. One guy ended up funding all of her family moving to the USA. When she got her green card and started working as nurse at local hospital she was banging every male in the place. When I told him how sorry was for his experience he said he was praying that some Doctor would take her off of his hands. Which eventually happened.

Most of the guys I knew, if they looked in the mirror, would have known that no young gorgeous woman of any ethnicity was going to be attracted to anything but their bank account.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> Well the guys I knew who got stung were stung by women of that ethnicity. *One guy ended up funding all of her family moving to the USA*. When she got her green card and started working as nurse at local hospital she was banging every male in the place. When I told him how sorry was for his experience he said he was praying that some Doctor would take her off of his hands. Which eventually happened.


He chose to do that. Why would someone pay for all of that and NOT know they are being scammed? When you have a woman of any ethnicity that's asking you for money like that, it's a huge red flag. He should have just refused.



> Most of the guys I knew, if they looked in the mirror, would have known that no young gorgeous woman of any ethnicity was going to be attracted to anything but their bank account.


This is precisely how you know you are being scammed right from the beginning. If you're a 60 year old guy and your foreign GF is a 20 year old, well kept hottie, you are probably being used for your bank account. This is how people end up losing their cash. You have to use your head a little and think. It's also worth pointing out that your buddy probably knew what he was getting into to some extent, even if he didn't expect the cheating. I can almost guarantee she wasn't working and he was sending her money all along. The scams are so easy to spot but men think with their small head and get into trouble.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

This theme comes up periodically and I kind of straddle the line on it some. Growing up I was told what seemed to be many, many times that I was a terrible example of a "man", that I'd live and die alone, etc. It felt pretty terrible at the time. For a little bit there was the possibility that I would have given up on life at the tender age of 11 or 12. Looking back it is a bit silly because WTF does a (pre-)teenage girl know about what a "real man" is and how in the hell would _anyone_ know if someone that young was going to grow up to be one or not? I can definitely understand someone that experiences something like that deciding that effort doesn't matter.

I chose the opposite path. The "I'll ****ing show you" path. I learned skills in the kitchen, in the bedroom, at the university, and professionally. I volunteered for things that most people couldn't handle and got through them. Mentally, the attitude was more or less "I'm a machine" or "I'm the Juggernaut, *****". Stoicism would have been the philosophical perspective.

I carried more than my share (and sometimes all) of household duties while making nearly all of the money during my marriage. There are some commenters in this thread that would have possibly used the word "simp" or something similar to describe me. I'd have died of exhaustion (or fallen asleep at the wheel or whatever) before admitting that I couldn't handle everything life was throwing at me. Saying more than a couple words about it would have sounded like being a whiny ***** in my own ears.


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## ArthurGPym (Jun 28, 2021)

Going back to the OP's original premise... 

I believe that every person is made in the image of God or the Creator, and therefore every human being is deserving of basic respect and to be treated with dignity, until that person does something or becomes the kind of person that is no longer worthy of these basic considerations. 

All men and women are created equal in terms of core dignity, but that does not mean they possess equal portions of talents and abilities. Some of us are just going to be more outwardly successful while others will just sort of skirt by. That is just life. It doesn't mean that the skirters are lazy or unambitious. Sometimes it is extremely difficult to rise above life's challenges and become a success. Sometimes you have to learn to be content with what you have and who you are. I try not to measure people by outward success, appearance or behavior. We are all born with quirks and foibles that are sometimes hard to overcome or suppress. I say people should be allowed to be who they want to be as long as they don't impede on other people's rights to be who they want to be. 

I try to (I don't always succeed) measure a man by his honesty and integrity. As long as he has those two things, I try not to judge him on his personality quirks, annual salary, or how much he can bench, or how fast he can run a 40, or how many women he has bedded, or how many cars he owns. Judging a man by statistical measures is a flawed approach IMO. As long as a man is happy within himself, is honest, and treats himself and others with respect, then I have no reason to disparage him or consider him less. A woman is going to love who she is going to love, and every woman is different. I know a gal who is a knockout: 110 pounds of fit, petite muscle, beautiful body and face, and she just happens to love big dudes. Seriously, she likes men who are 250 pounds or bigger, and they don't have to be in great shape. She just digs big men as long as they bathe and are groomed, she will date them.


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## HarryBosch (6 mo ago)

RebuildingMe said:


> I agree about the men that first show up on TAM. Weak, indecisive and passive. However, I also believe that the few men that divorce become more aware of their behaviors and what they will and will not tolerate. There’s a lot more information readily available for those men that have had their balls cut off. I’d like to think _these_ men find their balls again.


Every day I gain strength. I'm still weak, I have to see my Ex, we have kids. I'm at fault for our marriage failure.. time to time I'm reminded of it by my Ex. I still believe as divorced parents we can raise our kids better as friends or at least two who get along.

I do have balls though. I acknowledge to a point my faults, and I try to gain some amount of respect and trust... but I'm still a man, I will only take so much before the horse dies of a beating. Keep reminding a man of his faults without any forgiveness and eventually that man WILL walk away.

I'm at this point because of TAM (and a healthy does of therapy), I've gained strength by being more aware of my behaviors (and hers), and I'm seeing more of what I will and will not tolerate. If I'm there to atone for my sins, then so be it, but at some point your sins have to be forgiven and if they are constantly thrown in your face, and there seems to be no end to it, you have to have respect for yourself and walk away. My kids will have their father always, but their father is a man, and being used as a poor example or as a punching bag for mom sooner or later becomes too much and you walk.


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## DamianDamian (Aug 14, 2019)

Being weak does not justify being abused. Sure it's sad and frustrating that these guys do not learn to help themselves, but I wouldn't go as far to say they deserve their abuse - that sounds like you making excuses for their abusers.


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## mmtrimble65 (5 mo ago)

DudeInProgress said:


> We see a lot of men in really bad situations on this forum.
> Some can be helped, and are willing to do the work and the hard things to take control of themselves and their situation, to improve themselves and their outcomes, whether they remain married or not.
> 
> But many (probably the majority) are not. So many are either too wrapped up in flawed mental models or ineffective mindsets to understand / accept the reality of their situation - or too weak and unwilling / incapable of taking action to fix or leave their bad situation.
> ...


As a married woman with an exceptional husband , I so appreciate as a human being , the second to the last paragraph of your post.


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## DonJuan (Oct 20, 2021)

mmtrimble65 said:


> As a married woman with an exceptional husband , I so appreciate as a human being , the second to the last paragraph of your post.


Sometimes I think it’s simply confusion over what forgiveness is and isn’t. People don’t understand that you can forgive but not want the cheating and deceptive spouse anymore, or want to trust them anymore. I often hear, “my spouse won’t forgive me”, basically because their not getting their sucker back, and try to guilt the betrayed spouse into thinking they haven’t forgiven them if they want to divorce. I can forgive and no longer have a desire for sex with them and no longer trust them. People can stay and not forgive, or leave and not forgive, but it’s better for me to forgive and leave. I’m not confused about forgiveness, or love. When I see a post about ”your spouse loves you even though their cheating”, and have been for 30 years. Well that’s not love in my book, and if it is in the cheating spouses book, then they can share all that love with someone else, I don’t want it. Love does no harm to its neighbor. The love in, “ I’m not in love anymore,” refers to sexual love usually, not, I can no longer love them as a person


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Rus47 said:


> But see, that is 80% of the women using that app. What are attributes of women using an ap to try to get a date? So maybe 80% of THOSE women require a man to be over 6' before they will date them. Maybe 80% of the men using the ap will only date women with D cups or larger weighing less than 130 lb. People can want whatever, but unless 80% of the opposite gender meets the criteria it ain't gonna happen.
> 
> I had never even heard of "red pill" until visited TAM. Had to look it up to find out what that was all about. Rather astounding. I don't believe any of it. Never met any man irl who did. At the end of the day the average man and average woman are well "average". And both genders ultimately end up living average lives. Most people didn't select their mate using an ap.


Do not go off reddit for RP BS. As Rolo says, it is about vocalizing the anti male aspects of the modern feminist movement and how it degrades the lives of men and women alike. It is about recognizing the BS and calling it out....nothing more.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It’s so weird, we were talking to one of the young men that works in H’s office the other day about his social life and he said OLD is just bitter men looking for hookups and “anal retentive, angry, entitled women” looking for a money source. He’s so sweet and such a cute guy, he really tried but said the dates are like interviews and fully expected them to start asking for bank statements. Gross. He is also the one who characterized the dudes on there as “bitter and angry red pill types, all they want is a hookup and to treat women like trash.” He’s joined a running group and also a church singles group.


How would he know unless he is Bi and batting both ways.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Why isn't Mr. Average resentful towards the #10 Chads who burned and used their way through tons of women?


Because it is the women that are refusing to see those Chads for the POS they are. 

Had a girl I liked, that had a baby, I was willing to entertain stepping up. She was talking to another guy. I told her how the guy was, what he was gonna do if she went out with him. She could go out with him or me. She chose the party Chad. 

He hit it and quit it. Then told me all about it. She was upset, then asked me when we were going out. 🤨 Ain't no we missy. You made your choice. You chose the Chad for a night over the good guy that would have stepped up for your baby. I was a stupid naive boy then, but I was not stupid enough to go there after her choice had been made. My first RP realization about those type girls.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

LATERILUS79 said:


> What?!?!?!
> 
> You can’t possibly be serious?!
> 
> ...


Right! I prefer brunettes. Burned by redheads. Blond meh....


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

What does the Starship Enterprise and toilet paper have on common?



They both circle Uranus and get rid of clingons. A little Trekkie humor there for ya!


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> Who says they didn't get exactly what they went looking for? Maybe some women want a little sausage without having to cleanup the pigpen and decide they might as well pick the prize pig.


Problem is when they get tired of the 🐷 and get out of the pen, there will be a lot of good men will not come within 10ft of her because she now smells like pig shyt from rolling with the hogs. Hopefully someone who knows her will waive off the naive unsuspecting good guys before they land in her bed. Dude! 😳 This is NOT the droid you're looking for!🤣


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> Everything eventually selfcorrects, maybe that's what's required to reach equilibrium. Don't like the players, quit the game!
> 
> I did that as a woman when I didn't like the men in my pool. Sure I didn't get the longterm marriage I wanted, but I've been trying to make the best of my life for myself. Loneliness can be a truly terrible thing, and I feel for people, man or woman who go through life without love and companionship if they want that.


It is called MGTOW, I guess you are WGTOW.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> A woman in this situation, having her hand on a Kahr K9 subcompact, is the answer I prefer.
> 
> Mrs. Conan is that woman.


Wife has her SW Shield 9mm and a dainty little Baretta .25 with magsafe ammo as her grocery store pocket gun. Living in states where open carry w/o permit is law, 25 may not kill them but it will attract attention of some guy wanting to try out his new hollow points in his 45 on a perp.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> Wife has her SW Shield 9mm and a dainty little Baretta .25 with magsafe ammo as her grocery store pocket gun. Living in states where open carry w/o permit is law, 25 may not kill them but it will attract attention of some guy wanting to try out his new hollow points in his 45 on a perp.


I've tested the rather nasty style of hollows she has in her weapon. Even a grazing shot turns things into top ramen.

But I do agree that punching any holes in the tank kind of takes the piss out of a bad guys mood.😉


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> Problem is when they get tired of the 🐷 and get out of the pen, there will be a lot of good men will not come within 10ft of her because she now smells like pig shyt from rolling with the hogs. Hopefully someone who knows her will waive off the naive unsuspecting good guys before they land in her bed. Dude! 😳 This is NOT the droid you're looking for!🤣


I was mostly joking with that post. However, some women don't particularly care if good guys come near them or not, they're done with relationships with ALL men, and just have sex if/when they feel like it, or not at all.

Many women in my life have gone their own way, because they don't think "good guys" are worth it either; they have less work and stress living alone.


Divinely Favored said:


> It is called MGTOW, I guess you are WGTOW.


Maybe so. What's the alternative?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> I was mostly joking with that post. However, some women don't particularly care if good guys come near them or not, they're done with relationships with ALL men, and just have sex if/when they feel like it, or not at all.
> 
> Many women in my life have gone their own way, because they don't think "good guys" are worth it either; they have less work and stress living alone.
> 
> Maybe so. What's the alternative?



For many, being more selective from the start. Not being so quick to jump in the sack, or the hog waller, with those Chads and Tyrone's. If the girls were not so quick to jump, they could see those guys true colors and know they are only a hookup to them.

I was the good guy that was to the point of disgust with the opposite sex and the way they acted. Seemed like sex was just a feel good time, like dance partners at a night club, who's turn is it for the next whirl around the bed.

I was to the point I was done. Told God I was not looking any more, if He had the one for me, He will cross our paths. 

Wife was at the same place, she was 4 months past filing divorce on her cheating ex. 

Met ~2-3 weeks later when she was looking for her parents at the lake I was a Park Ranger at. Married 26 yrs this May and it is getting better and better.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> For many, being more selective from the start. Not being so quick to jump in the sack, especially with those Chads and Tyrone's. If the girls were not so quick to jump, they could see those guys true colors and know they are only a hookup to them.


I can't speak for single, never-married women who've chased Chads and Tyrones; I honestly don't know any. I'm speaking as a woman who's been married and observed other women who've been married to supposedly decent men who revealed themselves much later on. 

I don't know if you can't understand how deceptive or how much people can change later on since that has not been your experience.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I've tested the rather nasty style of hollows she has in her weapon. Even a grazing shot turns things into top ramen.
> 
> But I do agree that punching any holes in the tank kind of takes the piss out of a bad guys mood.😉


RIP?
For sub compact 9mm can't go wrong with standard 124 HST. Velocity wise they are equivalent of the NATO 9mm loading and they expand well below when others stop expanding. I am very selective in my ammo selection I carry in my duty weapons. HST 124 9mm(subcompact), HST 155-165 40SW, HST 230+p (5") STD velocity in 3.3" XD Mod 2


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> For many, being more selective from the start. Not being so quick to jump in the sack, or the hog waller, with those Chads and Tyrone's. If the girls were not so quick to jump, they could see those guys true colors and know they are only a hookup to them.
> 
> I was the good guy that was to the point of disgust with the opposite sex and the way they acted. Seemed like sex was just a feel good time, like dance partners at a night club, who's turn is it for the next whirl around the bed.
> 
> ...


Hey now. Some of us Chad's and Tyrone's actually have feelings.😉


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Hey now. Some of us Chad's and Tyrone's actually have feelings.😉


Pardon me, was not aware you ran through the girls with reckless abandon. Heck I started using my cousin as a test, if they fell for him, they were not worth my time. Girl I took to prom got knocked up by him and her filly had the nerve to be pissy with me. I just introduced them, didn't tell her teen azz to start F'ing him!


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