# Tired of failings being blamed on Maleness.



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

This is a continued discussion from this post, because I didn't want to hijack the thread.




urf said:


> *I don't want to hijack the thread but I do want to reply briefly. I don't think we disagree on what you said above. I also think that we are ignorant until we understand certain things. Speaking as a father of 3 sons all married with children, all in their 40's, I can tell you from observation that the men I raised and am very proud of are not the same in many ways as the boys I raised. True, certain core characteristics were there from the beginning. But all 3 of them have learned a lot about how to be good men, husbands and fathers. Amend that to say excellent men, husbands and fathers.
> 
> I was speaking for myself and confessing my own ignorance of what married life truly entailed. I like to think that having celebrated 50 years with the same wonderful woman that I was able to grow from ignorance to a level of wisdom and understanding on the subject of relationship.
> 
> ...


First off this is not an attack on you. It's an attack on an idea. I know I sound harsh, that's kind of my MO unfortunately. 

I am not saying this isn't a common problem with men, but being a man isn't the reason and saying it is has been a crutch on society. Men are just as capable of being emotionally intelligent as women. The problem is we don't hold them accountable and teach them how to be. I think a big part of the reason is this bull**** that men are emotionally incapable. 

Homer and Peter Griffith are funny cartoon characters, they should be as fictional as a talking dog that solves mysteries. It's pathetic that they are not. Don't insult men by saying this is the default. I find this just as insulting as the woman's studies professors who equate violence to masculinity.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

sokillme said:


> This is a continued discussion from this post, because I didn't want to hijack the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree. If a man is inadequate, it is on him. He has no right to blame it on men generally.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

This is an interesting discussion and something that has been on my mind as of late. I've realized that subconsciously, I have a lower starting point of respect for men vis-a-vis women because of the countless negative male examples that I've been exposed to, relative to the number of positive female examples. The difference is staggering. I can count on one hand all those I've come across over my childhood who I would consider responsible, mature men. So many examples of abusive men, even more walkout fathers and just general immaturity. I recall being with my sister during her difficult delivery while her husband was busy screwing another woman. His reason for cheating: he's a man and he has needs...

So I've been trying to be more aware of the way I interact with my partner. To figure out the ways in which I step on his toes as a man because of the negative generalizations about men that my experiences, society and the media have gradually ingrained in my subconscious. And to also get a better understanding of the fundamental differences between male/female interactions that cause unnecessary misunderstandings between us.

It's difficult for me as a woman to gauge, to what extent are my partner's failings a direct result of his innate tendencies as a male? To what extent are they his own personal inadequacies? It is difficult because so many of his mistakes seem to resonate with the experiences of other female friends/family and/or common faults among the posts here by, and about, men.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Sokillme is responsible for his own actions. He is not responsible for what me or Mr. The Other do or say.

If I run out and get drunk and hit a family of six, whose fault is it? Mine and mine alone.

No one wants to take responsibility anymore. -Johnny did it, why can't I- -Joan did it, why can't I-

Life is not a dress rehearsal and you can't just hit game reset when things don't go your way.

I've spent over 15 years in the classroom... I see it more and more.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Keke24 said:


> This is an interesting discussion and something that has been on my mind as of late. I've realized that subconsciously, I have a lower starting point of respect for men vis-a-vis women because of the countless negative male examples that I've been exposed to, relative to the number of positive female examples. The difference is staggering. I can count on one hand all those I've come across over my childhood who I would consider responsible, mature men. So many examples of abusive men, even more walkout fathers and just general immaturity. I recall being with my sister during her difficult delivery while her husband was busy screwing another woman. His reason for cheating: he's a man and he has needs...
> 
> So I've been trying to be more aware of the way I interact with my partner. To figure out the ways in which I step on his toes as a man because of the negative generalizations about men that my experiences, society and the media have gradually ingrained in my subconscious. And to also get a better understanding of the fundamental differences between male/female interactions that cause unnecessary misunderstandings between us.
> 
> It's difficult for me as a woman to gauge, to what extent are my partner's failings a direct result of his innate tendencies as a male? To what extent are they his own personal inadequacies? It is difficult because so many of his mistakes seem to resonate with the experiences of other female friends/family and/or common faults among the posts here by, and about, men.


I am not sure if you are a man or a women. To add to your point. I had another discussion with someone on here about emotional intelligence and how men are less emotionally intelligent. Which is not a fact, however it is the stereotype. But this idea boomerangs because it is also just assumed that women are much more emotionally intelligent. But reading on here and other posts this is in no way true. For instance so many women expect their husbands to just assume what they are feeling and then get upset when they don't. The thing that really clicked with me is post by lesbians who's wives did the same thing. Posts by bisexual women who say they are done with women because "men just say what they need". The idea that people are just going to know how you feel seems to be a common misconception by a lot of women and does not point to a high level of emotional intelligence. My overall point is some people are born with a high emotional intelligence but most aren't. The men are not taught because they are thought to not be capable and the women are not taught because they are thought to not need teaching. These stereotypes do great damage to society and marriage. 

Moving on to media examples, when I was growing up in the 80's the two TV Dad's I can think of were, Howard Cuttingham (Happy Days) whom I would say was a very good example of an emotionally, responsible father. And then came Cliff Huckstable (Cosby Show). Now no matter what Cosby turned out to be, I would say Cliff came off as good with his kids, but in a lot of ways he was a bumbling idiot in regards to his wife. She ran the show because a lot of times he was too stupid to do so. Unfortunately moving from that point I am hard pressed to see a very good example of a strong husband. 

I have grown very tired of it.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

feminism!

special rights not equal rights.

just calling it like I see it.


77cents on the dollar........bull crap. thats not what the us government says look at the study and read it.

how about female teacher molesting young boys. compare the sentencing from men who do the same crime to women.


it all feminism demonizing men.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

@sokillme, female here.

It's interesting you brought up the Cosby Show. I recall asking my partner for an example of a male in the media who he would consider a fine example of a man, and he said the same, Cliff Huxtable. In addition to Cliff being a good father, he resonated with Cliff being a simple man who placed greatest emphasis on the happiness of his wife and family. Yet I too felt that he didn't make the greatest husband. And you put it perfectly with the description of him being a "bumbling idiot" with his wife. He just did not exude the emotional intelligence that is a critical factor in wife/husband interaction.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I got a lot of stick for posting this on a thread months ago but I will say it again.
Men need to act like men,They are supposed to be the strong partner in a relationship but a lot of them don't act like it.Chuck71 had it right when he said this is not a dress rehearsal it's the real thing.The most sickening thing that I read about on tam is men who have children and for one reason or another feel they shouldn't have to support them,it's like "I screwed up this time but I promise to do better next time,you don't really expect me to pay for my mistakes do you".Then you have the permanent student,will do anything other than get a full time job and work to take care of his family.Then you get the ******* who has kids with two or more woman but can't support any of them.But my ****ing favourite is the guy who wants to "find himself",so he takes off and leaves his partner and kids to struggle on.You have men whose partner cheated so they leave and refuse to pay child support and "experts" on tam will give them legal advice on how not to support their own kids.
It makes me sick.


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

Thank you for starting a separate thread. This has become interesting . I don't know if it the proper way to discuss these things but it would be helpful from my perspective to know something about the person I'm talking to. I believe that we all view and state the world through the filter of our own experiences. In that light
a person with negative relationship experiences will have a filter much different than my own.

I suggest ground rules. As in a brief description of your "filter".

My filter: Married 50 years, no divorce, no infidelity, 75 years old, 3 sons, 3 d-i-ls, all happily married, 7 grand daughters, many long tern friends.

To: Sokillme, I have read "Emotional Intelligence" by Dan Goleman many years ago. The point which I was so poor at delivering, of my posts was to offer hope to a young person based on my experience and my observations. Boys are not men. Often boys become men. Even in that case it does not happen overnight. It happens over time. Individuals mature at different rates. That should go without saying.

If Homer or Peter suddenly grew into mature men the shows would soon be off the air. I grew up during the days of Ozzie and Harriet (I think Ozzie may have been a terrible father despite his depiction on TV), Leave it to Beaver (Ward was a very good example) and Father Knows Best (they slept in separate beds).

This is where we came from example wise.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> I got a lot of stick for posting this on a thread months ago but I will say it again.
> Men need to act like men,They are supposed to be the strong partner in a relationship but a lot of them don't act like it.Chuck71 had it right when he said this is not a dress rehearsal it's the real thing.The most sickening thing that I read about on tam is men who have children and for one reason or another feel they shouldn't have to support them,it's like "I screwed up this time but I promise to do better next time,you don't really expect me to pay for my mistakes do you".Then you have the permanent student,will do anything other than get a full time job and work to take care of his family.Then you get the ******* who has kids with two or more woman but can't support any of them.But my ****ing favourite is the guy who wants to "find himself",so he takes off and leaves his partner and kids to struggle on.You have men whose partner cheated so they leave and refuse to pay child support and "experts" on tam will give them legal advice on how not to support their own kids.
> It makes me sick.


The thing with child support is that as you're paying it you have no idea that is goes toward actually helping the kids. All too often it ends up being spending money for the ex wife. That's one of the reasons I haven't divorced. The thing I actually like about paying college tuition is that I actually know that money is going to help the kids, not her.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> I got a lot of stick for posting this on a thread months ago but I will say it again.
> Men need to act like men,They are supposed to be the strong partner in a relationship but a lot of them don't act like it.Chuck71 had it right when he said this is not a dress rehearsal it's the real thing.The most sickening thing that I read about on tam is men who have children and for one reason or another feel they shouldn't have to support them,it's like "I screwed up this time but I promise to do better next time,you don't really expect me to pay for my mistakes do you".Then you have the permanent student,will do anything other than get a full time job and work to take care of his family.Then you get the ******* who has kids with two or more woman but can't support any of them.But my ****ing favourite is the guy who wants to "find himself",so he takes off and leaves his partner and kids to struggle on.You have men whose partner cheated so they leave and refuse to pay child support and "experts" on tam will give them legal advice on how not to support their own kids.
> It makes me sick.


Indeed. I'm not sure why but it's almost comforting to hear this intolerance coming from a male. 

Just yesterday I was having a conversation with my partner about him possibly mentoring 2 young boys (11 and 14) whose parents were close family friends. Their father walked out about a year ago to move in with his 20-something year old gf who's now pregnant. He has not made any contact with the boys since he left. Because this has been a common occurrence among my partner and his schoolmates, he was of the view that this must be some mid-life crisis or something that happens in the man's head after being with the same woman for an extended period of time. Some need to prove their youth and somehow the kids end up getting the short end of the stick. But in my mind, this kind of behaviour must point to a fundamental flaw in these males. I refuse to accept that the average man has the ability to simply walk away from his children. Why do I see this but my male partner does not rationalize it this way? It's like he too has these ingrained biases towards failings of men.


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> The thing with child support is that as you're paying it you have no idea that is goes toward actually helping the kids. All too often it ends up being spending money for the ex wife. That's one of the reasons I haven't divorced. The thing I actually like about paying college tuition is that I actually know that money is going to help the kids, not her.


Is this a way of saying you want control?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Keke24 said:


> @sokillme, female here.
> 
> It's interesting you brought up the Cosby Show. I recall asking my partner for an example of a male in the media who he would consider a fine example of a man, and he said the same, Cliff Huxtable. In addition to Cliff being a good father, he resonated with Cliff being a simple man who placed greatest emphasis on the happiness of his wife and family. Yet I too felt that he didn't make the greatest husband. And you put it perfectly with the description of him being a "bumbling idiot" with his wife. He just did not exude the emotional intelligence that is a critical factor in wife/husband interaction.


Thoughts on Howard Cuttingham? I wonder what Gary Marshall (writer producer of Happy Days) early life and marriage was as compared to Bill Cosby. We all know who he turned out to be. Someone pointed this out and it's interesting that Cliff was a gynecologist who had is exam room in the basement of his house. Think about that for a moment in the context of what we know now. So creepy.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I've always found characters like Peter Griffin and Homer Simpson to be annoying idiots that are frankly insulting to real men. 

Fat, stupid idiots with wives that are supposedly way hotter and are somehow attracted to their fat, pathetic (but funny) ineptness. So not how things actually work. 

I feel insulted on behalf of men when I see a commercial showing dad as a bumbling idiot who needs a little kid to show him how it is. I suppose they're somehow geared toward women, but my experience with actual men has been nothing like that.....even my ex who was king ass wasn't a bumbling idiot.

And my father, may he rest in piece, was a real man who handled business.

As is my husband.

Those cartoon characters have nothing to do with maleness and everything to do with idiocy. One has nothing to do with the other.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

urf said:


> Is this a way of saying you want control?


Not control, I just don't want her to be able to blow all the money that's supposed to go toward support of the kids and come back to me and ask for more because they don't have money for essentials. I know that's what she would do.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

My filter: 30 year old female. Christian. Married to my high school sweet heart for 6 years. No kids. Grew up with strong females, passive men. I know I am biased to women. 

I go back and forth. I for sure feel like men haven't evolved much compared to women, I don't think men in general have stepped up to the plate in many areas. I have a picture in my head with men in the 1940s-50s and the men today and how different they have became in a negative way. 

I do disagree in that... men and women are different. And they are better in some areas than others. Especially emotional intelligence. That doesn't mean to say... men should be given a free pass to ignorance. 

It's funny how all our outlooks on men vs women are. My in laws are very patriarchal. They think men can't do wrong, and they have little expectations for them. 

As for Heath Cliff... I thought he was a great dad and husband. I grew up wanting to have their life and their marriage. Strong female educated wife. Strong but funny educated husband that respects his wife. I love that he just can't wait to get the kids out of the house so he can be with his wife. I love that he treated her like she was the most beautiful women in the world, he still dated her. He was moral and did the right thing.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> The thing with child support is that as you're paying it you have no idea that is goes toward actually helping the kids. All too often it ends up being spending money for the ex wife. That's one of the reasons I haven't divorced. The thing I actually like about paying college tuition is that I actually know that money is going to help the kids, not her.




Wow. THIS is the reason why you haven't divorced? That's really sad. I think you have a very negative weird outlook and fear that your wife is going to use your money to buy things for herself. Who cares what she does. This is a control issue.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> Wow. THIS is the reason why you haven't divorced? That's really sad. I think you have a very negative weird outlook and fear that your wife is going to use your money to buy things for herself. Who cares what she does. This is a control issue.


Nope it's a trust issue


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

so whose fault is it? Is it parents fault for not teaching their boys better. Is it men's fault for not knowing. Or is it women's fault for lowering expectations and continuing the "boys will be boys", not holding them responsible. 

The problem is... it's like supple and demand. You can hold a man accountable, he may get sick and tired of your unhappiness and "nagging" and go be with another women who expects much less from him and be happy while no one will ever met our expectations and we will forever be unhappy. 

I have the viewpoint right now of... married. It is what it is. I gotta except things the way they are not the way I want them to be. I will never find peace if I don't. However, when I have kids... I will teach them to be better.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> Nope it's a trust issue




How? What is your fear? You think your wife will buy a Prada bag while your kids are going hungry? You must not think much of her, well at least her abilities as a parent.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> I've always found characters like Peter Griffin and Homer Simpson to be annoying idiots that are frankly insulting to real men.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




But look around. I think those cartoons are obviously exaggerated but there is some truth to them. It seems like at least when I look around with my biased POV that when women get married, they inherit another child. The thought of a man playing video games blows my mind and drives me crazy.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> I got a lot of stick for posting this on a thread months ago but I will say it again.
> Men need to act like men,They are supposed to be the strong partner in a relationship but a lot of them don't act like it.Chuck71 had it right when he said this is not a dress rehearsal it's the real thing.The most sickening thing that I read about on tam is men who have children and for one reason or another feel they shouldn't have to support them,it's like "I screwed up this time but I promise to do better next time,you don't really expect me to pay for my mistakes do you".Then you have the permanent student,will do anything other than get a full time job and work to take care of his family.Then you get the ******* who has kids with two or more woman but can't support any of them.But my ****ing favourite is the guy who wants to "find himself",so he takes off and leaves his partner and kids to struggle on.You have men whose partner cheated so they leave and refuse to pay child support and "experts" on tam will give them legal advice on how not to support their own kids.
> It makes me sick.


I will never forget my pop telling me -if you think you're old enough to have sex with your

g/f, then by schit you're old enough to raise a kid when you get her pregnant.- Sure put a damper 

on our next few dates. -Don't expect to stay at home, move her in. I ain't running no GD hotel.

By the way.... you best enjoy all the sex you can now if you get her pregnant. After a kid or two, your

days of endless sex will be over.- VERY eye opening....

I have always been a huge fan of the 1950s-70s sitcoms. Many great father figures to look up to.

I don't watch much current shows.... I remember trying King of Queens... Doug Heffernan (sp)

He acted scared of his W, like a buffoon, inept, dim-witted. Same went for Mike n Molly....

it wasn't that bad until about the third season. Same thing as with Dougie. To me.... the guys had 

two emotional needs -me is hungry- -me is horny- Seriously LOL! Course I'm sure "some" guys

only care for those two needs. I recall being told some 20+ years ago, "Women think they can 

read a guy's mind and they expect the guy's to be able to read theirs." BTW... a female told me that.

I know lazy guys and hard working guys. I know lazy females and hard working females.

To lump every one into a main group of.... 100 million people, beyond lunacy. You get out, what you put in....

goes for just about everything in life.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Thoughts on Howard Cuttingham? I wonder what Gary Marshall (writer producer of Happy Days) early life and marriage was as compared to Bill Cosby. We all know who he turned out to be. Someone pointed this out and it's interesting that Cliff was a gynecologist who had is exam room in the basement of his house. Think about that for a moment in the context of what we know now. So creepy.


I've actually never watched the Happy Days show so I'm not familiar with the character, Howard. 

You know, I never made the connection with the gyno vibe and what we know now about Bill Cosby. I almost wish you hadn't noted it lol ughhhh


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> But look around. I think those cartoons are obviously exaggerated but there is some truth to them. It seems like at least when I look around with my biased POV that when women get married, they inherit another child. The thought of a man playing video games blows my mind and drives me crazy.


I know more good men than bad ones by a large margin.

One has to be very cautious of confirmation bias. When we expect to find certain things, our mind fulfills those expectations even if they are actually not. Also, our minds can see said expectations at the exclusion of many other things that would paint a more balanced picture.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I know more good men than bad ones by a large margin.
> 
> One has to be very cautious of confirmation bias. When we expect to find certain things, our mind fulfills those expectations even if they are actually not. Also, our minds can see said expectations at the exclusion of many other things that would paint a more balanced picture.


Agree. Confirmation bias is so easy in this case, since no man is completely good or bad. You can always find what you're looking for.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> I know more good men than bad ones by a large margin.
> 
> One has to be very cautious of confirmation bias. When we expect to find certain things, our mind fulfills those expectations even if they are actually not. Also, our minds can see said expectations at the exclusion of many other things that would paint a more balanced picture.




I'm aware. We all have biases and I'm aware of mine. My opinions, like everyone's have been developed through general observations. 

What is a good man vs bad man. I'm sure my trigger to call a man good is way different than yours. Also what we view as gender "expectations" determines whether we think a man or women is good. 

I ask my husband if his dad was a good dad and why (I think he was terrible, but did the best he could). He response, he was a great dad because he provided for us. 

My mom is old fashion and thinks a good wife is one that cooks and takes care of her husband and kids needs and keeps a clean house. A man is good if he provides for his family. 

I for some reason always had a higher expectation for men, and therefore find fewer to be "good".


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> My filter: 30 year old female. Christian. Married to my high school sweet heart for 6 years. No kids. Grew up with strong females, passive men. I know I am biased to women.
> 
> I go back and forth. I for sure feel like men haven't evolved much compared to women, I don't think men in general have stepped up to the plate in many areas. I have a picture in my head with men in the 1940s-50s and the men today and how different they have became in a negative way.
> 
> ...


There is a type of benevolent sexism that I think is not actually unhealthy. We can accept our partner as they, but sometimes this is just not possible, so we have to excuse them. An easy way of doing this is to say, "Men are rubbish like this...." or "Women are impossible like that....", it means we can use their sex to excuse our partner. I approve. Really.

"My in laws are very patriarchal. They think men can't do wrong, and they have little expectations for them." In the UK, the expectations for men are typically higher, which some men say is feminism gone to far, but I think it is a case of feminism leaving the job half done.

The main difference in men and women is physical. The rest is largely cultural (which does not make it trivial). I would not generally expect a woman to empathize with me in the way that I can typically empathize with her, I am a man and a man's man at that. When I have hard times, it is men who help me and understand. That does give me a different perspective to the archetypal "nice guy" who will get that support from women.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

katiecrna said:


> I'm aware. We all have biases and I'm aware of mine. My opinions, like everyone's have been developed through general observations.
> 
> What is a good man vs bad man. I'm sure my trigger to call a man good is way different than yours. Also what we view as gender "expectations" determines whether we think a man or women is good.
> 
> ...


I agree..... what higher expectations do you have?


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> Not control, I just don't want her to be able to blow all the money that's supposed to go toward support of the kids and come back to me and ask for more because they don't have money for essentials. I know that's what she would do.


How is that different? You want control of how the money you give her is spent.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> There is a type of benevolent sexism that I think is not actually unhealthy. We can accept our partner as they, but sometimes this is just not possible, so we have to excuse them. An easy way of doing this is to say, "Men are rubbish like this...." or "Women are impossible like that....", it means we can use their sex to excuse our partner. I approve. Really.
> 
> "My in laws are very patriarchal. They think men can't do wrong, and they have little expectations for them." In the UK, the expectations for men are typically higher, which some men say is feminism gone to far, but I think it is a case of feminism leaving the job half done.
> 
> The main difference in men and women is physical. The rest is largely cultural (which does not make it trivial). I would not generally expect a woman to empathize with me in the way that I can typically empathize with her, I am a man and a man's man at that. When I have hard times, it is men who help me and understand. That does give me a different perspective to the archetypal "nice guy" who will get that support from women.



One thing that I've noticed is that in places where women have the least power there are also the lowest standards of behavior for men. In some of these very patriarchal Muslim or African countries men can't be expected to control themselves around 8 years old girls, and don't really have to do much at all besides take.

Where women have power standards of behavior for men are higher, and once those standards are culturally accepted men will tend to hold other men accountable.

But there are men who resent these higher standards and blame feminism. I can't help but ask why? How is it unfair to ask more than the bare minimum of providing? Particularly when a lot of women are providing as well? If the answer isn't laziness or selfishness then what is it?

The fact is that expectations have changed on both ends. The same men who will complain about feminism and look for the good old days conveniently forget that the porn sex they often want didn't exist in the good old days. It was pretty unthinkable to ask your wife for oral or anal.

And you sure as **** didn't divorce your wife over a lack of a satisfying sex life, as guys on TAM are advised to do all the time.

There are many examples.....it's just important for men and women to keep in mind all the things they'd actually be giving up if the could go back to the good old days. I think many men imagine it would be the same as it is now except they'd control everything and their wife would do as she's told. 

Not the case.....many things would be different.


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Thoughts on Howard Cuttingham? I wonder what Gary Marshall (writer producer of Happy Days) early life and marriage was as compared to Bill Cosby. We all know who he turned out to be. Someone pointed this out and it's interesting that Cliff was a gynecologist who had is exam room in the basement of his house. Think about that for a moment in the context of what we know now. So creepy.


He also had a routine about doping girls unknowingly. Spanish Fly?


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> so whose fault is it? Is it parents fault for not teaching their boys better. Is it men's fault for not knowing. Or is it women's fault for lowering expectations and continuing the "boys will be boys", not holding them responsible.
> 
> The problem is... it's like supple and demand. You can hold a man accountable, he may get sick and tired of your unhappiness and "nagging" and go be with another women who expects much less from him and be happy while no one will ever met our expectations and we will forever be unhappy.
> 
> I have the viewpoint right now of... married. It is what it is. I gotta except things the way they are not the way I want them to be. I will never find peace if I don't. However, when I have kids... I will teach them to be better.


We teach and lead by example. I wonder about the parental example of folks here. What did they have to learn from their parents. Lessons can be positive and negative. As in... I want to be like that or I never want to be like that. Compound that by 2 parents.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> One thing that I've noticed is that in places where women have the least power there are also the lowest standards of behavior for men. In some of these very patriarchal Muslim or African countries men can't be expected to control themselves around 8 years old girls, and don't really have to do much at all besides take.
> 
> Where women have power standards of behavior for men are higher, and once those standards are culturally accepted men will tend to hold other men accountable.
> 
> ...


It does seem that one of the first things that a sex does with power is rid itself of responsibility and responsibility and power being in different places never ends well.

I live now in what is by global standards a very feminist nation compared to the UK, but here it breaks down. I hear women talk about their role in relationships going wrong and it is not unusual for women to even organize proper birthday parties for their men. I am afraid the men seem rather worse for it and the women rather better. I suspect it is a general correlation, but not too strict.

Generally, the men who want to go back to the old days are pathetic examples of manhood.


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

Chuck71 said:


> I will never forget my pop telling me -if you think you're old enough to have sex with your
> 
> g/f, then by schit you're old enough to raise a kid when you get her pregnant.- Sure put a damper
> 
> ...


 Interesting...... how is that advice working out for you?


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Chuck71 said:


> I agree..... what higher expectations do you have?




Let me preface this... this is my believe for what I think works for me and the type of marriage I want. I don't apply this To all men and women! 

I expect men to be the head of the house. I expect him to work hard and put the family first. I expect him to be the moral hierarchy. The person to go to for the best advice, the most moral advice. I expect him to live a moral ethical life in the way he speaks, and in his actions. He should respect his wife. He should see things in terms of us and we. He should see the house as our house, and if he sees something needs to be done... I.e. The laundry, he does it because he sees these things as items that need to get done, and nothing else. He is aware that he is a man, bigger and stronger than his wife, therefore he should treat her so, like carry heavy items, be protective of her. And he does all these things because it's who he is, not because his wife is good to him. 

I am huge about people doing what they should do because it's the right thing to do. Not because their spouse is good to them but because of who they are. Because they are a good person with good character. If that makes sense. 

To me... there is nothing better than a respectable man. I am all about character.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> There is a type of benevolent sexism that I think is not actually unhealthy. We can accept our partner as they, but sometimes this is just not possible, so we have to excuse them. An easy way of doing this is to say, "Men are rubbish like this...." or "Women are impossible like that....", it means we can use their sex to excuse our partner. I approve. Really.
> 
> .




Sounds like cognitive dissonance. I don't know if it's good or bad, but it's a way to deal with conflicting ideals.


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

urf said:


> Interesting...... how is that advice working out for you?


Should have asked me that back in 1989.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

This thread is a complete SNAFU. As I've read it I've had several comments to make, but as soon as I think of one the topic shifts to something else. So in a foolish and vain attempt to catch up, I'm going to ask some questions that truthfully I don't expect satisfactory answers to.
- What is emotional intelligence? How is it measured? How do you test it? How and where is it taught?
- Why is it considered inadequate to make decisions based on numbers rather than on feelings?
- If men are the same as women, what is the big deal with same sex relationships? Cross dressing? 
- And Why am I only attracted to one sort?
- It's Cunningham, not Cuttingham.
- How does @lifeistooshort 's model fit with Jamaica?

Good luck!


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> One thing that I've noticed is that in places where women have the least power there are also the lowest standards of behavior for men. In some of these very patriarchal Muslim or African countries men can't be expected to control themselves around 8 years old girls, and don't really have to do much at all besides take.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree 100%. But I think men had it easier back in the day. At least that's what I think. Back then all they had to do is really work and come home. And those days families were able to be supported on one income. They were more conservative with their money, and times were simple.


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> Let me preface this... this is my believe for what I think works for me and the type of marriage I want. I don't apply this To all men and women!
> 
> .
> 
> ...


and bugs. He has to be able kill bugs.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

urf said:


> We teach and lead by example. I wonder about the parental example of folks here. What did they have to learn from their parents. Lessons can be positive and negative. As in... I want to be like that or I never want to be like that. Compound that by 2 parents.




Yes!! I think it's so important to look at our own parents parenting style and pick up what we like so we can do it, and what we didn't so we can avoid it. 
Some people have a hard time saying anything negative about their parents because they think it's disrespectful. My husband to this day will never say anything bad about them, or critique them.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> I agree 100%. But I think men had it easier back in the day. At least that's what I think. Back then all they had to do is really work and come home. And those days families were able to be supported on one income. They were more conservative with their money, and times were simple.


Distance (in time or miles) makes things easy. People make things difficult.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

urf said:


> and bugs. He has to be able kill bugs.




And he has to grill.


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

Chuck71 said:


> Should have asked me that back in 1989.


Can you remember 89? It was a serious question. Your dad gave you advice. How does it work in practice?


----------



## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

As a man with 7 grand daughters I have a vested interest in the future of women. I believe we are entering the age of women.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> Let me preface this... this is my believe for what I think works for me and the type of marriage I want. I don't apply this To all men and women!
> 
> I expect men to be the head of the house. I expect him to work hard and put the family first. I expect him to be the moral hierarchy. The person to go to for the best advice, the most moral advice. I expect him to live a moral ethical life in the way he speaks, and in his actions. He should respect his wife. He should see things in terms of us and we. He should see the house as our house, and if he sees something needs to be done... I.e. The laundry, he does it because he sees these things as items that need to get done, and nothing else. He is aware that he is a man, bigger and stronger than his wife, therefore he should treat her so, like carry heavy items, be protective of her. And he does all these things because it's who he is, not because his wife is good to him.
> 
> ...


If that is all you expect and something you appreciate, you should have no problem finding someone and should make them happy.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

urf said:


> Can you remember 89? It was a serious question. Your dad gave you advice. How does it work in practice?


Well.... I have ADHD and autism. My IQ is 172 but I have to check the front door to see if 

it is locked multiple times. As it is a blessing to recall almost everything, it is also, to a degree,

a curse. 1st love and I never M, nor had kids "per say." Pop warned me she was damaged.

As usual, he was right.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> If that is all you expect and something you appreciate, you should have no problem finding someone and should make them happy.




Haha ur funny.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> Haha ur funny.


?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> ?




This doesn't fit many men I know. I love my husband but he doesn't always give the most moral advice and often is quit negative.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

katiecrna said:


> Haha ur funny.


I'm happy to see that you have your feet firmly on the ground.

I'm sure you also understand the incompatibility of asking a man to be the Moral authority, and to kill Bugs and cook meat over fire.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> This doesn't fit many men I know. I love my husband but he doesn't always give the most moral advice and often is quit negative.


I do not know your marriage! As Mr. Nail alludes to, the correctness of the morality of advice is debatable. I could also be quite negative when I was married and my wife did not feel I appreciated she was making most of the effort in the marriage. Of course, from my point of view, it looked quite different!

I hope you have a fun evening either way!

For my part, I have an unreasonable standard for women, so I am a poor judge.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

What's your expectation for women? @Mr The Other


----------



## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

Chuck71 said:


> Well.... I have ADHD and autism. My IQ is 172 but I have to check the front door to see if
> 
> it is locked multiple times. As it is a blessing to recall almost everything, it is also, to a degree,
> 
> ...


Was you father aware of your unusual gifts?


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

urf said:


> Was you father aware of your unusual gifts?


Yes..... I was a lil hellion. Never anything bad.... just enough to cloak the radar for an old

school arse whipping. 95% I deserved and another 75% I talked my way out of.....

least I'd like to think I did.


----------



## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> This thread is a complete SNAFU. As I've read it I've had several comments to make, but as soon as I think of one the topic shifts to something else. So in a foolish and vain attempt to catch up, I'm going to ask some questions that truthfully I don't expect satisfactory answers to.
> - What is emotional intelligence? How is it measured? How do you test it? How and where is it taught?
> - Why is it considered inadequate to make decisions based on numbers rather than on feelings?
> - If men are the same as women, what is the big deal with same sex relationships? Cross dressing?
> ...


As I remember it.... there several types of intelligence. Intellectual is one and emotional is another. I have since read that there are nine more types which I can not recall at the moment.

Intellectual is obvious. Emotional is the ability to interact with people. Some people are genius at it. They can tell what you are feeling by a look on your face or a tone in your voice. It seems much harder to do on the net. Genius emotional people can manipulate others easily because of this talent. The thing I remember from the Dan Goleman book was a question: Smart people often have a boss. The Boss may not know what his employee knows but knows how to get the employee to do what he needs.

I don't know how you test it. Emotionally smart people are often the happiest people you meet. Not because they have money or power but because they have satisfaction. 

I'm sure the book, Emotional Intelligence is still available but I suppose that the ideas set forward in the book have been updated.

Numbers over feelings is fine in the right circumstances. Logic is great. Humans are not necessarily logical all of the time. It is the result of evolution I believe. Everything we are is the culmination of trillions of choices. We and our feelings are a result. Intuition is an example of non logic. How does one pick a life partner? In some cultures it is the parents choice. In others we are left to discover the intuitive part of ourselves. Emotions seem to be intuitive. Compound that with rational and irrational intuition. Betting on horse because you like the jockeys shirt is irrational. Sifting through the odds and picking two horses you are left to choose between 2 equal possibilities. Use your best guess.*

If men are the same as women, what is the big deal with same sex relationships? Cross dressing? *

Human sexuality is the most difficult of all subjects to understand for me. I have thought a lot about it. First of all it takes place entirely in the mind. The body is the vehicle to manifest sexuality. Why the non-standard sexuality? I think it a combination of factors. I like the concept of imprinting. Like a new born duckling immediately bonds to the first thing it sees, humans also imprint. Sexuality involves arousal and at an early age arousal is associated with various triggers. When combined with a flood of hormones pumped into our systems there is a stronger than normal link made between various triggers and memory. In other words a touch resulting in sexual arousal yields a forever connection. We know that strong memories of anything are associated with a hormonal surge.

I'm still working on the above.

The only thing I remember about Jamaica is the ganja.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I am not sure if you are a man or a women. To add to your point. I had another discussion with someone on here about emotional intelligence and how men are less emotionally intelligent. Which is not a fact, however it is the stereotype. But this idea boomerangs because it is also just assumed that women are much more emotionally intelligent. But reading on here and other posts this is in no way true. For instance so many women expect their husbands to just assume what they are feeling and then get upset when they don't.


Maybe if men were emotionally intelligent enough, they'd know what the woman is feeling >
(only joking. I feel your anger 0:scratchhead:


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Keke24 said:


> Indeed. I'm not sure why but it's almost comforting to hear this intolerance coming from a male.
> 
> Just yesterday I was having a conversation with my partner about him possibly mentoring 2 young boys (11 and 14) whose parents were close family friends. Their father walked out about a year ago to move in with his 20-something year old gf who's now pregnant. He has not made any contact with the boys since he left. Because this has been a common occurrence among my partner and his schoolmates, he was of the view that this must be some mid-life crisis or something that happens in the man's head after being with the same woman for an extended period of time. Some need to prove their youth and somehow the kids end up getting the short end of the stick. But in my mind, this kind of behaviour must point to a fundamental flaw in these males. I refuse to accept that the average man has the ability to simply walk away from his children. Why do I see this but my male partner does not rationalize it this way? It's like he too has these ingrained biases towards failings of men.


It could be because your partner probably finds it hard to imagine doing the same despicable act and tries to find some possible rationalisation (such as midlife crisis/insanity) rather than choice. It doesn't mean he's excusing or siding with this behaviour. probably the opposite, if anything. (But then I also am finding myself siding with your partner disproportionately too much! There is probably a name for this condition...I just hope it's not male chauvinism :surprise:


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I go back and forth. I for sure feel like men haven't evolved much compared to women, I don't think men in general have stepped up to the plate in many areas. I have a picture in my head with men in the 1940s-50s and the men today and how different they have became in a negative way.


Have you read any women's magazines lately? There is plenty wrong with today's women... Kardasians anyone? I would say the worst of today's sexes pretty much deserve each other. 

You read my post wrong if you think it is about putting down men today, it's about the stereotype of men and it's impact. There are plenty of good men out there.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Have you read any women's magazines lately? There is plenty wrong with today's women... Kardasians anyone? I would say the worst of today's sexes pretty much deserve each other.
> 
> You read my post wrong if you think it is about putting down men today, it's about the stereotype of men and it's impact. There are plenty of good men out there.




Yea the stereotype that men aren't or are a certain way because they are of male gender. Thanks I got it. 

However stereotypes exist for a reason. I do not think men and women are equal with the exception of their physical strength.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> One thing that I've noticed is that in places where women have the least power there are also the lowest standards of behavior for men. In some of these very patriarchal Muslim or African countries men can't be expected to control themselves around 8 years old girls, and don't really have to do much at all besides take.
> 
> Where women have power standards of behavior for men are higher, and once those standards are culturally accepted men will tend to hold other men accountable.
> 
> ...



Depends on what you call feminism. If you think of it as egalitarianism then I am a feminist. If you are the type of feminist to tells me my masculine nature is toxic and then proceeds to pick bad things and associate them with my masculinity then you I will fight against your dogma. It used to be people who thought that way were called bigots, now they are called third wave. The problem is the hateful ones have hijacked the egalitarian ones.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

The point of this thread was not about anything we are talking about here. It was about negative stereotypes and how they are associated with maleness. And how some men propagate them and in effect hurt each other because of it. It was not for posters to come on here and tell us how men suck and the stereotypes are true.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Let me preface this... this is my believe for what I think works for me and the type of marriage I want. I don't apply this To all men and women!
> 
> I expect men to be the head of the house. I expect him to work hard and put the family first. I expect him to be the moral hierarchy. The person to go to for the best advice, the most moral advice. I expect him to live a moral ethical life in the way he speaks, and in his actions. He should respect his wife. He should see things in terms of us and we. He should see the house as our house, and if he sees something needs to be done... I.e. The laundry, he does it because he sees these things as items that need to get done, and nothing else. He is aware that he is a man, bigger and stronger than his wife, therefore he should treat her so, like carry heavy items, be protective of her. And he does all these things because it's who he is, not because his wife is good to him.
> 
> ...


I think most men at least the ones I am close to would agree with this, the doing laundry one might give you some push back. I feel bad for you if you haven't had many examples of that.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I think most men at least the ones I am close to would agree with this, the doing laundry one might give you some push back. I feel bad for you if you haven't had many examples of that.




What happened to staying on topic and discussing the negative stereotypes of men?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Yea the stereotype that men aren't or are a certain way because they are of male gender. Thanks I got it.
> 
> However stereotypes exist for a reason. I do not think men and women are equal with the exception of their physical strength.


I don't think you do get my point. I used the Kardashians for a reason. I could point to any number of Instagram account and associate that with today's women and say, women today are really failing terribly. The difference is this type of women is rarely seen except on reality TV. (In the same way that one of the posters said she was embarrassed for men with these cartoon dads, so am I embarrassed for women with these "real wives" for instance. And it's the women who watch those shows!) The difference is we don't see scripted shows written with many women like this. Not in the position of Mom anyway. Maybe we will eventually. 

Are the stereotypes true, of course there are. In the same way this kind of vapid, materialistic, attention seeking women also exist. But the first time I hear a women say she is like that because she is a women it will be the first to call her out on it. That is my point. Yes there are men like this, but being a man is not what made them that way. 

Some PEOPLE are crappy.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> What happened to staying on topic and discussing the negative stereotypes of men?


Your post made me sad. :frown2:

You pretty much described what I have striven to be for my forty some years, though my wife would probably tell you I could improve on the cleaning, I have offered to get a cleaning person because I know this is not my strength. I have 2 very good friends who are like brothers and are also these types of men.

I know plenty of guys, brother-in laws, my cousin, some people I am close to at work who are also like this. Being this way doesn't assure you a good marriage or love and respect that is for sure. 

Anyway it's sad you don't have many men like these in your life. If you did I think you would be quick to hate the stereotype as I do.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I don't think you do get my point. I used the Kardashians for a reason. I could point to any number of Instagram account and associate that with today's women and say, women today are really failing terribly. The difference is this type of women is rarely seen except on reality TV. (In the same way that one of the posters said she was embarrassed for men with these cartoon dads, so am I embarrassed for women with these "real wives" for instance. And it's the women who watch those shows!) The difference is we don't see scripted shows written with many women like this. Not in the position of Mom anyway. Maybe we will eventually.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Of course materialistic women exist. Of course Peter griffin- like men Exist. I think that men and women can be generalized sometimes. Does not mean that they all are this way. 

I can say women do things because they are women, just like I say men do things because they are men. Just like I can say... of course they do that, their Italian. Or of course they do that they have ADHD. Of course he thinks that way, his wife cheated on him. Of course she thinks that way, she was born with a gold spoon in her mouth. Of course she acts like that, she lost a child.

I don't know if these are considered crutches, but I think it sometimes it is what it is.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> If you did I think you would be quick to hate the stereotype as I do.




What stereotype exactly?


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> What stereotype exactly?


The stereotype that men are a bunch of frat-boys and Homer Simpsons. Yes some men are that. The ones I know are nothing like that, never even went through a phase like that. I really can't think of one person like that in my life who I was close to. I can't think of one women who is like a Kardashian either. 

Maybe that is because I wouldn't tolerate it, or maybe it's because they wouldn't tolerate my loathing. I just don't see a lot of real world people like that. On here yes. On TV. Not in real life. 

So when I hear this is how men are I am insulted for myself and my male friends. It's like saying all women are gold diggers, I suspect if I say that to you you don't like it.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> The stereotype that men are a bunch of frat-boys and Homer Simpsons. Yes some men are that. The ones I know are nothing like that, never even went through a phase like that. I really can't think of one person like that in my life who I was close to. I can't think of one women who is like a Kardashian either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I know many Homer Simpson like men... a lot. My dad included. Doesn't mean he is a bad guy. He just likes beer, the bars, sports, jokes around a lot, likes food, isn't a intellectual etc. 

I understand what your saying, I guess I just disagree because I do see these things. I do see materialistic, gold digger women. I'm a nurse, there are literally nurses I know that have goals to marry a doctor. 

There are many types of men and women. It doesn't offend me to hear that some women are gossipy, materialistic, gold diggers. I actually agree with this. 

I am married to a surgeon. He is a great Christian man. If he were to cheat on me in 10 years... I would think well he is a surgeon, (as well as a scumbag). That doesn't mean all surgeons cheat, but that is what I would be thinking.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> I know many Homer Simpson like men... a lot. My dad included. Doesn't mean he is a bad guy. He just likes beer, the bars, sports, jokes around a lot, likes food, isn't a intellectual etc.
> 
> I understand what your saying, I guess I just disagree because I do see these things. I do see materialistic, gold digger women. I'm a nurse, there are literally nurses I know that have goals to marry a doctor.
> 
> ...


I know who you are, you and I pretty much agree on most things from your posts. 

"He just likes beer, the bars, sports, jokes around a lot, likes food" is this a bad thing? This would describe about 90% of men and 40% of women (because of the sports) I know. 

Not being intellectual doesn't make someone a bad husband or Homer Simpson. Is this really about his level of intellect or maybe education where your issue is? I ask because you are married to a surgeon and seem to get some pride in that (not saying that is a bad thing). 

Homer is a lazy, grotesquely overweight bumbling, almost retarded level idiot with a heart of gold, he is a lazy parent, and a lazy husband. His motivation seems to be to watch TV and drink beer. His one redeeming quality is that he loves his family. This is how you would describe your father? Does he know you think of him this way? Does his wife think of him this way? 

For his benefit I hope never finds out, especially if he really isn't like this and is just an ordinary Joe, as is what your original description of him says. No man should be put at the level of Homer because he doesn't spend time reading Ulysses and likes sports bars.


----------



## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I know who you are, you and I pretty much agree on most things from your posts.
> 
> "He just likes beer, the bars, sports, jokes around a lot, likes food" is this a bad thing? This would describe about 90% of men and 40% of women (because of the sports) I know.
> 
> ...




My father is passive aggressive. I have no emotional connection with him, but I love him If that makes sense. And yes I know there is a link with my dad and my husband, trust me I'm aware. My dad is lazy, and overweight. He worked hard to provide for him family, but that's it. He has never cooked, cleaned, or did laundry. He was not a good dad to a daughter. Don't get me wrong, I love him and he did the best that he could, which was better than his dad. But he treated me like a boy, like my older brothers. No emotional sensitivity at all. My dad never yelled, never punished us, couldn't tell you much about my life except the sports that I played. I could never get sympathy from him, if I hurt myself it wasn't a big deal for him I have to suck it up. 
When I was young, my brothers and I and him went sledding, I hit a bump and landed on my face and instantly got a really bad bloody nose. My dad put me in the car, gave me his handkerchief, And said I'll turn the heat on for you, we're going to sled a little longer and we will be back, and left me. I was 7. My dad never took anything serious, and this drove my mom crazy. They would get into crazy fights because all my mom wanted was to be taken seriously. My mom left multiple times, and always came back. My dad didn't bat an eye. Something that my dad does that drives me and my mom crazy is when we are mad, he makes jokes. The more mad we get, the more he thinks it's funny. Which is why my mom would resort to physically throwing things like plates. He still acted like he couldn't care less. One time my mom threw a plate right at his head, he ducked, he then made this smart ass comment to us kids like he wasn't phased at all, then he went and sat down and watched tv like everything was normal while my mom was literally having a mental breakdown. When I was older like 17 I was driving and I saw my mom walking down a main road. I pulled over, she was crying hysterically. She told me... I am either going to kill him or kill my self. And she had herself committed voluntarily in the hospital for a few days. She came back, my dad didn't bat an eye. It was never talked about again. I don't want to go on bashing my dad because I do love him, but he was rough.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> My father is passive aggressive. I have no emotional connection with him, but I love him If that makes sense. And yes I know there is a link with my dad and my husband, trust me I'm aware. My dad is lazy, and overweight. He worked hard to provide for him family, but that's it. He has never cooked, cleaned, or did laundry. He was not a good dad to a daughter. Don't get me wrong, I love him and he did the best that he could, which was better than his dad. But he treated me like a boy, like my older brothers. No emotional sensitivity at all. My dad never yelled, never punished us, couldn't tell you much about my life except the sports that I played. I could never get sympathy from him, if I hurt myself it wasn't a big deal for him I have to suck it up.
> When I was young, my brothers and I and him went sledding, I hit a bump and landed on my face and instantly got a really bad bloody nose. My dad put me in the car, gave me his handkerchief, And said I'll turn the heat on for you, we're going to sled a little longer and we will be back, and left me. I was 7. My dad never took anything serious, and this drove my mom crazy. They would get into crazy fights because all my mom wanted was to be taken seriously. My mom left multiple times, and always came back. My dad didn't bat an eye. Something that my dad does that drives me and my mom crazy is when we are mad, he makes jokes. The more mad we get, the more he thinks it's funny. Which is why my mom would resort to physically throwing things like plates. He still acted like he couldn't care less. One time my mom threw a plate right at his head, he ducked, he then made this smart ass comment to us kids like he wasn't phased at all, then he went and sat down and watched tv like everything was normal while my mom was literally having a mental breakdown. When I was older like 17 I was driving and I saw my mom walking down a main road. I pulled over, she was crying hysterically. She told me... I am either going to kill him or kill my self. And she had herself committed voluntarily in the hospital for a few days. She came back, my dad didn't bat an eye. It was never talked about again. I don't want to go on bashing my dad because I do love him, but he was rough.


Your Mom doesn't sound so great either throwing plates and all. Sounds like total dysfunction from head to toe. Have you had any IC to deal with that?


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Your Mom doesn't sound so great either throwing plates and all. Sounds like total dysfunction from head to toe. Have you had any IC to deal with that?




My mother is a weak co-dependent person. She dealt with her problems by drinking. And when she was drunk things escalated. She created a very bad life for herself. She never worked, she was a SAHM, she didn't have a degree, or any skills. She was trapped in a crappy marriage, and her husband didn't respect her or take her seriously and there was nothing she could do, so she coped by drinking. My mom was raised by an alcoholic dad. All my moms siblings are functioning alcoholics. 

No I haven't been to IC. I don't believe things like this get better by talking about it. It is what it is. They honestly did the best they could. My mom was a great amazing mom, not a good role model. My dad really is a kind person, he just wasn't a good dad or husband. My parents got through it, and I learned amazing lessons through them, on what not to be, and what to be. Today, my parents have a pretty good marriage. They are both fundamentally flawed people that have chose to accept each other for who they are, rugsweep and move on. My mom doesn't have healthy coping mechanisms, she is not emotionally stable and it's better for her to rug sweep than to dig up her crazy traumatic past up.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> It could be because your partner probably finds it hard to imagine doing the same despicable act and tries to find some possible rationalisation (such as midlife crisis/insanity) rather than choice. It doesn't mean he's excusing or siding with this behaviour. probably the opposite, if anything. (But then I also am finding myself siding with your partner disproportionately too much! There is probably a name for this condition...I just hope it's not male chauvinism :surprise:


You always introduce a different interpretation that makes me rethink what I thought I understood and question everything over with the new understanding. Thinking in overdrive now lol :|


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I hold men to the same standards of adulthood I hold myself to. Basic senses of responsibility, charity, honor, loyalty, respect. In general, I find men to be a little more aware and demonstrative of concepts such as partnership, camaraderie, and fairness than women. Again, I speak in generalities. Case in point, I'm sitting in a waiting room for a blood draw. It's first come, first served. Man walks in and asks if I'm having blood drawn and adds his name under mine. Woman walks in and I saw her putting her name at the top of the list above us both. That's a crappy move that I'd not excuse from either gender, but IME I see women pull it all the time. 

What irks me is that there are so few good male role models out there. Or perhaps, the good role models are tired of having to struggle against undoing the damage that so many young men have undergone. Women want good men, but they have neither the teachings, coachings, nor skills to live up to the expectations. I'm seeing more supportive programs out there to help. I hope it's not too late.


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

katiecrna said:


> Yea the stereotype that men aren't or are a certain way because they are of male gender. Thanks I got it.
> 
> However stereotypes exist for a reason. I do not think men and women are equal with the exception of their physical strength.


*You read my post wrong if you think it is about putting down men today, it's about the stereotype of men and it's impact. There are plenty of good men out there.*

Observation: When someone misunderstands a post it could be they "read it wrong" or it could also be that it was not stated in an unambiguous way.


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

Satya said:


> I hold men to the same standards of adulthood I hold myself to. Basic senses of responsibility, charity, honor, loyalty, respect. In general, I find men to be a little more aware and demonstrative of concepts such as partnership, camaraderie, and fairness than women. Again, I speak in generalities. Case in point, I'm sitting in a waiting room for a blood draw. It's first come, first served. Man walks in and asks if I'm having blood drawn and adds his name under mine. Woman walks in and I saw her putting her name at the top of the list above us both. That's a crappy move that I'd not excuse from either gender, but IME I see women pull it all the time.
> 
> What irks me is that there are so few good male role models out there. Or perhaps, the good role models are tired of having to struggle against undoing the damage that so many young men have undergone. Women want good men, but they have neither the teachings, coachings, nor skills to live up to the expectations. I'm seeing more supportive programs out there to help. I hope it's not too late.


Use a lab that takes appointments and be on time.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Keke24 said:


> You always introduce a different interpretation that makes me rethink what I thought I understood and question everything over with the new understanding. Thinking in overdrive now lol :|


I think what I found at first a little strange (and still do sometimes) is that in a relationship, it takes a lot of effort to achieve the same level of trust and the same level of bond (where you don't second guess your partner too much AND your own reactions to your partner) as you'd have with your child, parent or sibling (the kind of altruistic love & trust). Biologically/genetically, the bond is just not the same and it is not as strong (it's not supposed to extend much beyond procreation....to be cynical) so it takes very little for your brain to suddenly switch and see that person in a different light all of a sudden, i.e. "my god, who is this irritating person?" I think it's important (though maybe naive) to start out with the assumption that the other person loves you unconditionally and only has good intentions. Then you don't question every little reaction, hint, tone in the voice, response to a question etc too much because your brain will do the rest and blow it out of proportion.
On the other hand, one shouldn't ignore any major issues that may really bother you long term so it's about finding the right balance with those things. I guess you see your relationship going in a very specific trajectory and if it deviates a little, you start panicking and question your own reaction from the ground up. Maybe TAM is the problem  it forces you to examine yourself from the root up and then you end up unearthing all kinds of crap that's better left buried


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

sokillme said:


> And then came Cliff Huckstable (Cosby Show). Now no matter what Cosby turned out to be, I would say Cliff came off as good with his kids, *but in a lot of ways he was a bumbling idiot in regards to his wife. *


Maybe because the guy was a COMEDIAN??? Rapist too, apparently.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

urf said:


> How is that different? You want control of how the money you give her is spent.


I wouldn't call it control, I would say that I don't trust her to do the right thing. Just like with the college tuition, if I had to give her the money to pay the tuition, the college never see it and my daughter would have to go without college. That's why I'm still married, I pay the tuition myself instead of having to go through her. She can't be trusted to do anything right she only thinks of herself.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> How? What is your fear? You think your wife will buy a Prada bag while your kids are going hungry? You must not think much of her, well at least her abilities as a parent.


Yes, exactly, that's exactly what she would do. She only thinks about and cares about herself. Her children and I don't matter. Trust has always been an issue in our marriage.


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

jb02157 said:


> I wouldn't call it control, I would say that I don't trust her to do the right thing. Just like with the college tuition, if I had to give her the money to pay the tuition, the college never see it and my daughter would have to go without college. That's why I'm still married, I pay the tuition myself instead of having to go through her. She can't be trusted to do anything right she only thinks of herself.


No offense intended. It still the same thing. You want to control how the money is spent. I get it. If that is the only reason to stay married well...

I kind of think that could be handled in a settlement. On the other hand, staying married like that might be considered an excuse for not making the decision to divorce.. In addition the effect on your child/children is going to be with them until they go into therapy as adults. I'm just commenting on what you are saying. I know nothing of your situation so please excuse me if I misstate.


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## bkyln309 (Feb 1, 2015)

I am a woman and I agree there should be accountability with child support. I keep my kids money in a separate account. If a judge were ever to ask, I can just pull at the statement and it would be clear from the entries, every thing I did with the money went for the kids.

I have a friend (male) who pays 5,000/month and his kids still come to him for things like clothing and school supplies. Disgusting. Unfortunately, his X wife has no accountability and its wrong.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Satya said:


> ....
> 
> What irks me is that there are so few good male role models out there. Or perhaps, the good role models are tired of having to struggle against undoing the damage that so many young men have undergone. Women want good men, but they have neither the teachings, coachings, nor skills to live up to the expectations. I'm seeing more supportive programs out there to help. I hope it's not too late.


The organizations that have sponsored and advocated, and even trained men to be role models and mentors are under social attack. When the courts have failed, pressure is applied to corporate sponsors to remove financial support for these programs. The organizations have been disappearing for most of my life. Some of the fault lies in the idea that any man who volunteers to work with youth or children is under suspicion of pedophilic exploitation. In short we have decided as a society NOT to have male role models and mentors.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

katiecrna said:


> What's your expectation for women? @Mr The Other


My expectations are reasonable, I mentioned my standards as being too high!

I would like a woman I find attractive, including kindness, beauty and intellect.

The harder bits, I would want respect, but not veneration. Insecurity can cause some women to put their men on a high pedestal, which sounds great. But, it means what you do is no longer respected. When you put yourself in danger, well you could cope easily. When you take care of her when you both have the flu, well disease does not really affect you. When you work hard, well, it is so easy for you. "I love you" often means, "I from now on rely on you to make me happy and that is my contribution to the relationship". 

Such veneration is a killer, but the other side of that insecurity is poison dripping. Most men would die for their women, but living with someone who will continually try to put you down is not acceptable. Of course, we all have insecurities, but I would want the respect combined with the self-awareness not to let such insecurities ruin everything.

All that, and a partner who is also willing to contribute to the marriage - in an actual way rather than 'emotional support'. I do not mean to dismiss "emotional support" completely, as I give it to friends and receive it from friends. But often it means that feeling like you have contributed or claiming you did something is more important that actually doing it, which is BS. 

It means that there is a respect and motivation that goes beyond convenience. I had a friend, LC. He had a romantic weekend planned with his girlfriend, but his brother committed suicide a couple of days before hand. He cancelled the weekend with his girlfriend and went up to see his family instead. Rather than being upset about her lost weekend, she instead went up with him, supported him and his family - making food and doing grocery shopping. Shortly afterwards he proposed and they are still together. Such a woman is very rare indeed, but very precious.

It is a fairly dull list, and fairly typical I would think. It does ask for self-awareness and commitment, but I know of women like this. I also know they are of limited number. I am forty now, and even with advantages (I can still go into town and get the numbers of young attractive women), I know the chances of finding all that are limited. But, I am rather happy on my own. 

Sorry, it is all rather typical and boring. No great insights.

All that and Catholic would be ideal. But now we are getting into really little chance.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> I wouldn't call it control, I would say that I don't trust her to do the right thing. Just like with the college tuition, if I had to give her the money to pay the tuition, the college never see it and my daughter would have to go without college. That's why I'm still married, I pay the tuition myself instead of having to go through her. She can't be trusted to do anything right she only thinks of herself.




Why would you give your ex wife money for your kids college? They are over 18 then why not just give the college money yourself. People find strange excuses to stay married to a person they dislike.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Katie,

Posting solely as a fellow traveler, not as a mod. 
Male 53 - together with M2 for 27 years, married for 25. 

What is the difference in your mind, between a man watching tv vs playing a video game? 






katiecrna said:


> But look around. I think those cartoons are obviously exaggerated but there is some truth to them. It seems like at least when I look around with my biased POV that when women get married, they inherit another child. The thought of a man playing video games blows my mind and drives me crazy.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Some states do require child support as long as the children stay in college. Not mine, but then again we are not really a progressive politically important state. Which means that I am currently free from the possibility of paying Child support . . . . to my wife. It does nothing for The money I've shelled out this year to get D#2 to Graduation this year. Including a seminar in London. But, hey She was my side kick through the hardest year of my life. She has earned this. And I couldn't be more proud of her achievement. :::End Thread jack:::

Um stereotypes often lead us to poor policy decisions.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

urf said:


> Use a lab that takes appointments and be on time.


I wasn't complaining, just making a point.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Satya said:


> I hold men to the same standards of adulthood I hold myself to. Basic senses of responsibility, charity, honor, loyalty, respect. In general, I find men to be a little more aware and demonstrative of concepts such as partnership, camaraderie, and fairness than women. Again, I speak in generalities. Case in point, I'm sitting in a waiting room for a blood draw. It's first come, first served. Man walks in and asks if I'm having blood drawn and adds his name under mine. Woman walks in and I saw her putting her name at the top of the list above us both. That's a crappy move that I'd not excuse from either gender, but IME I see women pull it all the time.
> 
> What irks me is that there are so few good male role models out there. Or perhaps, the good role models are tired of having to struggle against undoing the damage that so many young men have undergone. Women want good men, but they have neither the teachings, coachings, nor skills to live up to the expectations. I'm seeing more supportive programs out there to help. I hope it's not too late.


I do know, whar Is com frum, a male would be looked down upon for making anything out of what

she did. Another guy doing it, he must call him out. A female is expected to let a guy and

call out another female. I know that's how it is in my life and pop's from what he shared with me.

There are very few positive male role models for kids today. Most are skiddish and dull, 

treating / expecting their W to be their mother, or the modern day "wanna be Billy Bad A$$es" who

when they don't get their way, smack around the female or just -pop a cap in someone's arse-

Real or imaginary... people like to have something to believe in. People once believed in the church,

their M, their family. If you read this board.... all three are eroded away.

Edit: Also reminds me a LOT of the chapter "Men without Chests" from CS Lewis, Abolition of Man.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> The organizations that have sponsored and advocated, and even trained men to be role models and mentors are under social attack. When the courts have failed, pressure is applied to corporate sponsors to remove financial support for these programs. The organizations have been disappearing for most of my life. *Some of the fault lies in the idea that any man who volunteers to work with youth or children is under suspicion of pedophilic exploitation*. In short we have decided as a society NOT to have male role models and mentors.


Business friend knew Director of Schools a couple counties away. I applied for teaching position.

DoS wanted me to coach as well, was glad to. Softball.... "I will have a female assistant right?"

DoS said probably not. The teaching job was tied to being the coach as well. 

I backed out of the deal and even the W (at the time) said she would have climbed my arse 

if I took it without a female assistant. Is this right? No but it is the way it is. Oh... the guy who did 

get the position.... resigned in his first year. No one knew why.


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