# How to know you know it all



## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

I'm stuck. I want to believe that my husband has told me everything, but the past two nights lying in bed I've realized the significance of details that I previously did not fully consider.

For example, my WH came clean with the fact that he called an escort (and intended to have sex with her), that he went to a strip club and got a stripper's number, and that he met some store clerk chic and made a second visit to the mall to see her. I found three random numbers above and figured out the story behind two of them on my own - the third (the stripper) he willing offered when I demanded he tell me everything.

I was certain that he told me everything. He wrote a letter detailing everything and has been remorseful. 

However, however..... 

Two nights ago, I realized that it is incredibly unlikely from someone to go from no cheating to attempting to cheat with three women in one week - and the one week that I the BW just happened to check his phone. Wouldn't someone gradually fall into infidelity? Not just go from zero infidelity to contacting an escort, visiting a strip club and getting a strippers number, and hitting on a store clerk (and planning to go out) ALL IN ONE WEEK.

What's your reaction to what I have written? I finally told him that in my heart I am certain there is more to his cheating history and that I don't believe him no matter that I know he is sorry. He says, "I don't know what to say because I already told you everything. Do you want me to lie? There is nothing more for me to tell you. I swear." Or something to that effect.

Am I pushing him to go crazy? I mean if he didn't do anything other than what he admitted to then from his perspective this must be very frustrating to have to prove you didn't do something that you didn't do.

On the other hand, no way. Seriously no cheating to suddenly three girls in one week. It's not plausible. This is the sticking point for me - where I've realized that the story has a glitch. It can't all be out. Or can it? I'm miserable until I know. But how can you know you know it all?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

I agree...that is a very quick escalation of cheating behavior. However, the most important thing is this: Trust your gut. No matter what the F he says, you are the one who knows him. You are the one who is married to him. If things don't seem right, they probably aren't. 

I can tell you this about trickle truth...every time my wife told me a little bit more she also said, "Now you know everything". And I did. Until I learned a little bit more.


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

Stick with your "gut" feeling...cheaters tend to trickle truth at best..a little here and a little there from time to time when they are pressured...I am not sure cheaters ever tell the whole truth.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

From my experience I've gotta say that you NEVER get the complete story. A cheating spouse is in their "fog" and even lie to themselves. If they can't even be honest with themselves, why would they be honest with you? 

I really wish you well with this dilemma, since you seem to be leaning towards reconciliation.


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## Link182 (May 25, 2012)

As well as you know your husband he know's you. Trust your gut based on what he says in part, but mostly on his eye's, his body language, and his tone. My wife lied right to my face for months. I wanted to believe her, but something told me she was a little too angry at times, a little too sad at times, and way too psycho the rest of the times when I pressured her. From what I have pieced together her infidelities started out as an online fling and progressed to PA's but each took months to progress.

I wish you luck. What kind of evidence do you have? What have you done to find the truth? (VAR, key logger, phone spyware, etc?)

I am sorry you are here, but most of here know full well the agony you feel right now. I wish peace for you. Nights awake in stir are the worst.


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

Thanks so much everyone. The part where I am unsure is that Dday was 2.5 months ago and since his admission and outline of everything he did, I was fully convinced that he had told me everything. Like I told my counselor, "Believe me, I know when he's lying."

But this week, suddenly it hit me. A eureka-like moment where suddenly I thought "my gut" has got to be off. It's not my gut telling me that there is more to the story. It's a step of reasoning that for some reason I missed until recently. 

My heart/gut (with a tiny tiny bit of hesitation) says that he admitted all significant details, but rationality leads me to say it is implausible for someone to in one week become involved in multiple paths of infidelity.

As far as evidence. I downloaded a keylogger after dday and after beginning to reconcile, but the trial period ended a couple weeks ago. When I first caught him, I had a bad feeling and grabbed his phone and wrote down four random numbers that I found. Three of the four led to girls who he should never have been contacting. He admitted details such as visiting a strip club (where he got the stripper's number). And seriously, how often do stripper's give out their numbers? Would they do that for a person who doesn't even pay for a lap dance. Supposedly they just talked. He had a beer and flirted but he swore a thousand times over that he did not pay money for any "services". It's all these little things that seem implausible and which bother me more and more the more I think about them.

I'm so sick of this and sick of resenting my husband, his actions, and losing my innocence and zest for life. I feel that life is so short but that I can't enjoy it while this resentment is corroding my inside self. It makes me more resentful that he has chopped away the precious beauty of life, and I am too young to feel so damn old and broken.

I suppose what should matter is moving forward. I can say with 99% certainty (1% because 100 no longer exists) that he has not strayed since R began. This I feel in my gut and can back up based on his actions and everything checking in. But I can't seem to get beyond the past and until I can accept the past, how can I begin to love him thoroughly again.

Yes, this is one other problem that I am facing. And it is related to the resentment I have mentioned several times. I actually love him less now. I still love him and my heart aches when I imagine him hurting himself. For example, after telling him that I don't believe that he has told me everything, he left to smoke hookah. He was frustrated and looked ready to cry. I wanted to hug him and tell him to drive safely and when he left I begged the universe to not let him die in a car accident and leave our love in such a spoiled miserable state. But at the same time, I was stone cold to him as he left and wanted him to not know how I love him.

Because my love is less now. I used to think of him as such an amazing human being. But now I see all sorts of weaknesses in him and he hurt me more than anyone in my life. Seriously, I have sooo much resentment. I want to reconcile, but I don't love him as much as I did. I was crazy about my husband before, and desired him so much. Now, honestly, I have no desire for sex with him. I have forced myself to act like I had interest multiple times because I don't want to create a situation where he does need sex elsewhere. Why did he have to ruin the good me????

Final note: I did get tested for STD's and am in the clear though HIV needs to be checked again in six months. I can't imagine getting an STD from a cheating partner. Sick sick sick.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

My man said 'do you want me to lie'. In my opinion, and I have nothing to back it up other than my feeling this is sh1t, and I don't know if anyone else agrees, but I think this is a cheater liar script. I could be wrong, I may well be, but my man hasn't told me his all. The reason I know is because I know. It doesn't make sense, his reactions are defensive, he eta very nervous (shaky hands) when we discuss certain aspects, and he is an expert liar when it comes to covering his ass. 

Lie detector in 2 weeks.

Your best bet is to root and snoop. Seeing as he knows you know already then I would suggest you take his phone (if it is a smart phone then it is worth it) from him, take the computer, and get all data recovered. See what you find. You could even bluff him and tell him this is what you are doing and watch his reactions. They will tell you. Be careful though, do it swiftly. If he is hiding information then the chances are he could be deleting all evidence as we speak. 

Get advice here if you need it on how to.progress.


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## Link182 (May 25, 2012)

Someone said it best, and in my case I can attest to it's truth. If you want to save your marriage, get prepared to lose it. Whatever that means to you, if you are convinced and/or suspect you are in a false R, then take action. Follow the advice you are given here, throw me out of the equation. TAM'ers have heard it all, seen it all, and are shocked and proved wrong very seldom. 

Trust your gut, it isn't connected to your heart if you listen closely.

I wish you peace.


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

Unfortunately, we have cheap pay as you go phones. As in the kinds where you don't have a record and messages that have been deleted are gone for good. So there is no way to go back in time with that. 

I guess in many ways it is all irrelevant. I mean no matter how awful this all has been and even if it was worse than I know, I want to reconcile IF HE IS ABLE to be honest and faithful forever more. Sadly, he is remorseful today but there is no guarantee ten years down the road. 

I feel like this lady I once met who had an awful husband and told me, "I was dealt a hand and I played my cards." 

My main goals are the following:

1. Figure out how to transcend the resentment and feel pure love for him again.

2. To accept such a tainted reality. To stop grasping for dear life for a world where soul mates reside - where divorce, cheating, and fighting do not touch every family in some way. If I accepted a tainted reality, I could bear almost any pain the future may bring. 

3. Related to the first goal, I want to feel sexual desire for him again. Sadly, I never experienced hysterical bonding which is so often discussed on this forum.  Instead, my body feels cold.

4. I hope my self-esteem can be repaired. I really feel un-lovable and I feel like he has turned me into this suspicious, bitter, paranoid, angry, and just unhappy wife. I hate who I have become.

I'm not convinced our R is false. But I am worried that my resentment is not subsiding quickly enough.


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## committedwife (Dec 12, 2011)

totallyunexpected said:


> I'm stuck. I want to believe that my husband has told me everything, but the past two nights lying in bed I've realized the significance of details that I previously did not fully consider.
> 
> For example, my WH came clean with the fact that he called an escort (and intended to have sex with her), that he went to a strip club and got a stripper's number, and that he met some store clerk chic and made a second visit to the mall to see her. I found three random numbers above and figured out the story behind two of them on my own - the third (the stripper) he willing offered when I demanded he tell me everything.
> 
> ...


 Require him to submit to a polygraph examination in order to remain in the marriage. You'll get information that way. 

What are you doing to affair-proof your marriage? It sounds like your WH travels for work. Has he left that job? Do you understand that, if there is nothing put in place to prevent further incidents, your WH will likely continue his waywardness?

What have you done to affair-proof your marriage?


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

Polygraph - I think I will look into that. It may be the only way to get closure, though they are not particularly accurate. It may just mess with my mind more. But thank you for having me reconsider that.

My husband does NOT travel far for work. His work is like 10 minutes from our home. I have access to his email, phone, the computer, and I can keep track of all our money since it all goes to an account which he only has access to by writing checks (which are recorded). I'm sick of vigilance honestly. I need to read the books His Needs, Her Needs but right now I'm in grad school and have so much other reading to do. I hate the fact that I love school but that he is making this a miserable time in my life.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

totallyunexpected said:


> Polygraph - I think I will look into that. It may be the only way to get closure, though they are not particularly accurate. It may just mess with my mind more. But thank you for having me reconsider that.
> 
> My husband does NOT travel far for work. His work is like 10 minutes from our home. I have access to his email, phone, the computer, and I can keep track of all our money since it all goes to an account which he only has access to by writing checks (which are recorded). I'm sick of vigilance honestly. I need to read the books His Needs, Her Needs but right now I'm in grad school and have so much other reading to do. I hate the fact that I love school but that he is making this a miserable time in my life.


The value of the polygraph is in how your husband reacts to having to take it.

If he believes in its value, he may be agreeable until about to take it, or he may refuse to take it.

Observe his reaction, and draw conclusions on what you observe.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

If you are already sick of vigilance, I don't think you really want to R with him at this point. Have you started individual counseling? Has he? If the answer to either question is no, you should start as soon as possible, and have him do the same. After you both invest some time into IC find a couples counselor that has experience with infidelity and start MC.

He should be trying to move heaven and earth to make you feel better right now. If he isn't, he is probably just waiting for the dust to settle and sweep the whole thing under the rug.

As others have mentioned, if you have any doubts, do everything in your power to confirm/dismiss the doubts. It will eat away at you, and the resentment will just get worse making R impossible.

You have a long road ahead of you, and you've only taken a few steps forward. Give the whole thing time, focus on counseling and being a better you, then see if he puts in enough work to make himself worthy of your time.


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

Thanks again to everyone.

So last night was very disturbing and painful. Frustrated with the accusations and feeling hopeless about my ability to trust him again, my husband wrote a suicide letter. He indicated that he just gives pain to those around him and that the only way out of such a life is suicide. I balled my eyes out last night. At one point I wasn't sure if he hadn't taken a bunch of pills. In the end, I was the one comforting him. Why isn't he stronger?

It's not that he wants to continue the wayward behavior. He's depressed (like me) about everything and he feels like I'm not getting better. Or like I'll never trust him again. He had already written down everything he supposedly did. But I accused him of lying and not telling me the full story. I was in part trying to pull it out of him and in part I just don't know.

Oh I am so miserable. I am going to miss one of my classes this morning. My eyes are puffy. I'm a mess. I'm falling behind in my work. But today I wake up more miserable than I have felt in a while (dday being 2.5 months ago). Now I have the pressure of him possibly taking his life if I can't get better. It's all so unfair. He's supposed to be helping me. Why is he so weak? I need strength. I know he is remorseful and loves me, but why can't he be strong enough to move the mountains that need moving right now.

This is truly a rant of misery. Now I am dealing with infidelity and my husband considering suicide. What's the point of grad school ... of anything at times like this. If only I didn't have to be a TA too - then I would skip all classes today.

About counseling. The problem is he speaks another language (which I learned but) which is rare here. I've searched for counselors in his language and there aren't any here. I'm doing individual counseling every two or three weeks. He needs it too. He always says what hurts him the most is when I say that I feel like he doesn't hurt when I hurt. But it's like, if I am crying then he should hurt so bad that he holds me until the tears are gone and saying sorry that he caused me such pain. He thinks he shows concern by doing household chores, bringing me to the dog park, and what not. Which is great. But it isn't enough. I want to see him feeling hurt when he sees me in pain.


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## crash_d (Feb 5, 2013)

His suicidal thoughts are not your fault. Don't let him use it to pressure you. 

If he's really worried that he just causes pain to those around him a) suicide is only going to cause them more pain, and b) the real solution is to stop being a **** and causing them pain in the first place. He can control whether he's being a **** or not. If he needs counseling, then he needs counseling, but it comes down to choice.

Remote counseling can work, especially for individuals. It should be possible for someone to counsel him by phone.


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## crash_d (Feb 5, 2013)

Also, on the general tune of whether you know it all, or can ever know it all...

I've thought long and hard about this with my WW. The fact is, we've been married 4 years and in that time there are far, far too many opportunities where she could have cheated that I could never conceivably find out about. I know about 2 PAs, one of which was an EA as well. But there could have been countless others and she could easily cover them up/never tell me. At some level, I have to accept that I can not know everything.

If we are going to R, the bottom line is she needs to change, our relationship needs to change, and we need to have transparency going forward. She needs to rebuild trust and I need to get to a place where I can trust that it won't happen again. 

I don't want to live a life where I have to worry about her or look over her shoulder every minute of the day, so we either need to get to a point where I'm ok with trusting her some, or we need to D. 

But that's not about the past. It's about the present and the future. Once I think she's done the work of repentance, shown that she honestly wants to change and R, and she's showing by her actions that she's committed to it, I have to stop worrying about things I can't know from the past.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

totallyunexpected said:


> He says, "I don't know what to say because I already told you everything. Do you want me to lie? There is nothing more for me to tell you. I swear." Or something to that effect.


That is right out of the cheater's script.

Did he swear on the life of his mother or another loved one? It is a running joke on this forum that seems to be a sure sign the the cheater still is lying.

When a story does not make sense, it usually is a lie. Yes, your husband's story is a lie. There is more cheating or attempts at cheating in his past.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

You will never know it all.

The question is, how much is enough for *you*?


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

totallyunexpected said:


> I feel like this lady I once met who had an awful husband and told me, "I was dealt a hand and I played my cards."
> 
> My main goals are the following:
> 
> ...


Those goals are horrible. Transcend the resentment? Feel pure love for him? To feel sexual desire for him? Those should be HIS goals, not yours.

TO ACCEPT A TAINTED REALITY? SO YOU CAN BEAR ANY PAIN THE FUTURE MIGHT BRING? That's really one of your goals? That is the most depressing GOAL I've ever heard of. Sometimes people have to deal with the troubles that life serves them, but they don't make it a GOAL.

Self esteem is excellent. Shoot for being happy with yourself.

Do you have children? How long married?


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## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

the fact is that you'll NEVER now "all of it." 

it sounds like your obsessing over this, which is understandable.


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## Jadiel (Oct 10, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> That is right out of the cheater's script.
> 
> Did he swear on the life of his mother or another loved one? It is a running joke on this forum that seems to be a sure sign the the cheater still is lying.
> 
> When a story does not make sense, it usually is a lie. Yes, your husband's story is a lie. There is more cheating or attempts at cheating in his past.


Yep, my wife swore on our children she'd told me the whole truth. Then turns out she didn't. 

Another thing I've noticed, at least for my wife, is when she starts with trying to reason her truthfulness. "Why would I tell you I cheated with just one guy but leave out others? Don't worry there was no one else, just this one guy."

Or "I really wish there was something else just so I could tell you!" 

A few times she tried covering it with some random, mundane thing. "Well there was this one time I told you I went to denny's with my best friend linda, but she brought a guy along too...I didn't tell you cuz I thought you'd be super jealous!"

I don't understand why cheaters can't just come out with it. It's mind-boggling to me. Especially when your WS has extreme listening problems. "Just tell me the whole truth, all of it, leave nothing out, so I can know you're being honest and we can start building trust again." Followed by lies from the WS. Then later , WS is like "Why don't you trust me??? Is it just because I lie all the time!?"

I probably have an archaic view of things, but I believe that a person has the right to know what their spouse is doing with their genitals. Whether it was yesterday, 6 months ago or 10 years ago. If it happened within the time of your relationship, even if you're immortal and it was 10,000 years ago, it's not "the past". It's still part of "the now", because your relationship is still going on.


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> Those goals are horrible. Transcend the resentment? Feel pure love for him? To feel sexual desire for him? Those should be HIS goals, not yours.
> 
> TO ACCEPT A TAINTED REALITY? SO YOU CAN BEAR ANY PAIN THE FUTURE MIGHT BRING? That's really one of your goals? That is the most depressing GOAL I've ever heard of. Sometimes people have to deal with the troubles that life serves them, but they don't make it a GOAL.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I didn't think of them as "horrible" goals. Here is where outside perspective is so helpful. Thank you all.

No children. Together four years. Married two years. Had to live in foreign countries in order to be together. It was a beautiful love story. Now, I'm trying to believe I will get better. He has been great since that pathetic suicide episode. We got our meds - both on Zoloft. Surely getting off was contributing to the problem. 

I think the biggest barrier to our future aside from his history is my resentment. I honestly have lost the drive for sex with him. But I don't want him to not get his fill at home. Ughh, why did he have to ruin everything. I am not considering divorce. I want to reconcile, and so does he. In any case, there is no need to rush R or D. I'm just trying to BE and get through school while not being overly resentful.


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

I've thought of putting MrsM under hypnosis. I think that would reveal anything important that hasn't been revealed yet. 

I'd trust hypnosis over a polygraph any day.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I know you don't want to hear this, but I think you have only the tip of the iceberg. You made an excellent initial point about the measly chance that you have the whole truth given what you discovered and how you discovered it.


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