# Wife won't have sex with me



## dave90951

My wife and I are in our early 30s and have been married for about 5 years, we live in the midlands and have 2 young children.
We used to have an active sex life but since the birth of our youngest daughter my wife won't have sex with me. We last had sex around a year ago and have only had sex maybe 3 or 4 times in last 3 years. She says she still loves me and wants to be with me but doesn't have the sexual desire towards me that she used to have.At first I put it down to post-natal depression but that has now resolved and her feelings towards me remain the same. 

She recently told me that she sometimes gets the desire to have sex with other men e.g. from her work and even women too (she sometimes says how she would like to try a female-female sex). She says that she hasn't been unfaithful though. I will often try to initiate things but she will push me away and even prefer to watch erotic movies to pleasure herself instead of me while wearing earphones watching on her ipad at night while we are both in bed. So I end up just falling asleep instead. I have tried to watch with her but she pushes me away. Last week she said to me that I can have sex with other women if I want and that she will still love me.

We'll still chat to each other, go out on weekends etc with our children and watch tv together etc.

What is going on here, I just don't know


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## GuyInColorado

Where's your confidence? Are you fat? Are you bald? Are you short? You need to find your balls. 

You should demand sex or hand her divorce papers. Sex is a MUST in a marriage. Otherwise, end it. I was in a sexless marriage for 4+ years but it was because I couldn't stand my ex wife and would never in a million years have sex with her again. I waited until the kids got old enough and bolted. Now having a great sex life.

Your conversation should go like this:

"Wife.... I thought this through and will not live in a sexless marriage. I will not stay married to someone that does not desire me sexually. That is not a marriage. It is a roommate situation. You either tell me the truth on why you won't have sex with me and fix it, or I'm single starting tonight. Let's get this divorce done as quickly and cheap as possible."


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## dave90951

Thanks for your response. I have felt like saying that at times but i don't want to lose her and also I don't want to lose daily contact with my kids which would definitely happen if we separated. As I said,we still get on well otherwise and ending the relationship is not my aim


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## chillymorn69

Shes gay and in the closet.

Might as well move on.


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## Married but Happy

dave90951 said:


> Thanks for your response. I have felt like saying that at times but i don't want to lose her and also I don't want to lose daily contact with my kids which would definitely happen if we separated. As I said,we still get on well otherwise and ending the relationship is not my aim


You've _already_ lost her, and you can still be a great co-parent and a _happy_ example for your children when you find a new, _good_ relationship.

If you won't leave, tell her you're opening the relationship, and will get your need for intimacy met elsewhere.


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## dave90951

she already suggested we have an open relationship and I have to admit it is very tempting but i'm not sure if I actually did have sex with another woman if she would still be ok with the open marriage idea when the reality of it sets in


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## dave90951

i don't believe she is gay(in response to 2 above), she had multiple boyfriends before me and i think she is just curious regarding that


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## Married but Happy

dave90951 said:


> she already suggested we have an open relationship and I have to admit it is very tempting but i'm not sure if I actually did have sex with another woman if she would still be ok with the open marriage idea when the reality of it sets in


If she's not good with it, then maybe she'll find the motivation to want to have sex with you again. Either way, it's win-win for you.


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## dave90951

Married but Happy said:


> If she's not good with it, then maybe she'll find the motivation to want to have sex with you again. Either way, it's win-win for you.


Thanks, you might be right but I have a fear that it could backfire like crazy and if she was then upset with me she could accuse me of cheating and cause issues with my family/friends etc


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## FeministInPink

Guys, guys, guys! Hold your horses! You're all acting like bulls in a china shop!

First, @dave90951 Don't listen to GuyinColorado and demand that she give you sex. That NEVER works.

I do, however, agree that a healthy sex life is a vital component to a healthy marriage. The lack of sex isn't the problem, however; lack of sex is almost always a symptom of the problem. There is another reason that sex has dropped off. You need to figure out what it is, because that's what needs fixing to restore the balance.

Women need to feel loved to want to have sex. She still has a sex drive, clearly, but it's not being directed towards you. Why? She's probably not feeling the love.

Have you guys tried marriage counseling (MC)? DO you know her love languages? How is your emotional intimacy?


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## GuyInColorado

dave90951 said:


> Thanks, you might be right but I have a fear that it could backfire like crazy and if she was then upset with me she could accuse me of cheating and cause issues with my family/friends etc


Are you serious? GROW SOME BALLS! Who cares! You don't have a marriage. Go get laid by someone that WANTS you. Your confidence is at an all time low. 

You need a therapist. You need to figure out why you would let your "wife" do this to you and you take no action.

Go get laid tonight. And never get married again, it's a crapshoot.


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## Married but Happy

dave90951 said:


> Thanks, you might be right but I have a fear that it could backfire like crazy and if she was then upset with me she could accuse me of cheating and cause issues with my family/friends etc


So? She's already wrecking your marriage, so what's there to lose? Besides, you can tell everyone about her behavior, which she won't like, either. You have to be strong and assertive to get what you want, or she'll continue to keep your balls in a box.


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## FeministInPink

A few more posts came up while I was writing my comment. OP, do not let her coerce you into an open marriage, under the guise of it fixing things. That will be the beginning of the end, if you do.

Open marriages should only be entered into when the relationship is already healthy and BOTH people want it. Don't let her talk you into it.


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## bmorehappy

dave90951 said:


> she already suggested we have an open relationship and I have to admit it is very tempting but i'm not sure if I actually did have sex with another woman if she would still be ok with the open marriage idea when the reality of it sets in


OP do not fall for it. I was in a similar situation and suggested the same to my partner because I had lost interest. It was extremely selfish on my part because I did for two main reasons: 1) I wanted him to get off my back and if he was having sex with other women then I knew he would nag me less, 2) I was still wanting sex with others and knew if he would be having sex with other women then he couldn't exactly complain if I wanted to do the same.


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## dave90951

Married but Happy said:


> So? She's already wrecking your marriage, so what's there to lose? Besides, you can tell everyone about her behavior, which she won't like, either. You have to be strong and assertive to get what you want, or she'll continue to keep your balls in a box.


Thanks, what you say makes sense. I have done crazy things like look on affair websites but I'm not sure I could go through with signing up and actually meeting women like that. But i may have to eventually i guess, if the situation doesn't change. 

The other post before was interesting too- yes she does seem to want sex still but just not directed towards me and I have to explore why. I don't believe i'm cruel to her in any way and I always try to do things for her and am actively involved with looking after the kids. Not sure where I can improve really to make her want me again


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## dave90951

bmorehappy said:


> OP do not fall for it. I was in a similar situation and suggested the same to my partner because I had lost interest. It was extremely selfish on my part because I did for two main reasons: 1) I wanted him to get off my back and if he was having sex with other women then I knew he would nag me less, 2) I was still wanting sex with others and knew if he would be having sex with other women then he couldn't exactly complain if I wanted to do the same.


Sounds like you had a similar situation. Can I ask what happened in the end, did you resolve things and if so then how?


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## Diana7

dave90951 said:


> Thanks, you might be right but I have a fear that it could backfire like crazy and if she was then upset with me she could accuse me of cheating and cause issues with my family/friends etc


Going outside the marriage for either of you would be a disaster.


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## chillymorn69

Any woman who openly confesses she has a sex drive for other men and would like to try women is just begging for divorce.

I say give her one.

Try to find out why she don't feel loved? I call balony on this. She should comunicate why she don't feel loved. Not with hold sex and tell her husband she gets aroused by other men and woman and maybe would like to try sex with a woman.

Its like a moving target how the hell are you supposed to figure it out with a woman who plays these games. Its down right cruel. Messed up . Why would you even want to try to have sex with someone who would treat you this way. 

Desire should be reciprocated or never mind! I'd rather spank it than have sex with someone who really don't want or desire me.


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## Married but Happy

dave90951 said:


> Thanks, what you say makes sense. I have done crazy things like look on affair websites but I'm not sure I could go through with signing up and actually meeting women like that. But i may have to eventually i guess, if the situation doesn't change.
> 
> The other post before was interesting too- yes she does seem to want sex still but just not directed towards me and I have to explore why. I don't believe i'm cruel to her in any way and I always try to do things for her and am actively involved with looking after the kids. Not sure where I can improve really to make her want me again


It may be that you're too nice, too compliant. She may see you as weak, and may respond to other men who are more assertive or dominant. Can you become more that kind of guy - decisive, strong, unwilling to tolerate neglect and disrespect?


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## FeministInPink

Married but Happy said:


> It may be that you're too nice, too compliant. She may see you as weak, and may respond to other men who are more assertive or dominant. Can you become more that kind of guy - decisive, strong, unwilling to tolerate neglect and disrespect?


Is it time to recommend No More Mr Nice Guy?


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## SunCMars

FeministInPink said:


> Guys, guys, guys! Hold your horses! You're all acting like bulls in a china shop!
> 
> First, @dave90951 Don't listen to GuyinColorado and demand that she give you sex. That NEVER works.
> 
> I do, however, agree that a healthy sex life is a vital component to a healthy marriage. The lack of sex isn't the problem, however; lack of sex is almost always a symptom of the problem. There is another reason that sex has dropped off. You need to figure out what it is, because that's what needs fixing to restore the balance.
> 
> Women need to feel loved to want to have sex. She still has a sex drive, clearly, but it's not being directed towards you. Why? She's probably not feeling the love.
> 
> Have you guys tried marriage counseling (MC)? DO you know her love languages? How is your emotional intimacy?


Yeah, but, yeah, but.

Yeah, but, that is SO HARD, Mommy :crying:
.......................................................................................

Next time she is sleeping, slowly pull back the covers. Using a low power flashlight look her over.

Lift every flap and both boobs. Look for a healed cut. One that is white-knit in the center with fresh-reddened edges.

It is usually located at the Y-Juncture of Little Fork and Lady Bird Avenues.

What is you are looking for? I believe the colloquial name is Porn Scar.

Here is an uncommon example of a women enjoying what her eyes deliver to her mind, and her hand delivering to her birth canal.
She enjoys porn more than the real thing.....your' real thing.

But, this is a symptom and not the real diagnosis.


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## uhtred

Dear wife. Is there anything I can do, anyway I can change to make you enjoy sex with me again. Are you willing to go to to a marriage counselor with me to see if we can fix this?

If not, you have to know that I don't want to live the rest of my life celibate. If you want to stay married, we can try an open marriage where we are each free to sleep with anyone we want. Most likely one or the other of us will develop an attraction to a new partner and the marriage will end anyway, but we can try if you like. Otherwise we should divorce as equitably as possible and try to stay on friendly terms for the children.


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## bandit.45

Dave are you out of shape? Did you let yourself go physically? Do you maintain good hygiene? Do you show her affection or try to be romantic? Have you ever cheated on her? 

If you are in the same shape you were when you married her, and you have been a loving and dutiful husband, then you need to ask her to go to marriage counseling with you. If she refuses, then you move on to step B, which is going to a lawyer to find out your rights, and then C, filing for divorce. Do not let your children grow up under a loveless marriage. 

DO NOT agree to an open marriage. Simply because she is female she will land ten times as many partners as you will, and you will get to watch her get dolled up every Friday night to go out and get laid while you stay home with the kids and play with your pud. It never works. 

Only she knows why she doesn't want sex with you. It may very well be she just doesn't love you anymore, or maybe never really did. You have to steel yourself for that reality, because it happens more often than you think. Some chicks get married just to get married and have babies, not because of love or commitment to a man.


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## bandit.45

uhtred said:


> Dear wife. Is there anything I can do, anyway I can change to make you enjoy sex with me again. Are you willing to go to to a marriage counselor with me to see if we can fix this?
> 
> If not, you have to know that I don't want to live the rest of my life celibate. If you want to stay married, we can try an open marriage where we are each free to sleep with anyone we want. Most likely one or the other of us will develop an attraction to a new partner and the marriage will end anyway, but we can try if you like. Otherwise we should divorce as equitably as possible and try to stay on friendly terms for the children.


dumb


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## uhtred

Why? It asks if she wants something to change. If not gives her two alternatives, both of which result in the O having sex. 

Otherwise he could run in circles trying to figure out how to be more attractive to her, only to discover she is lesbian. OR, he could leave when there is some change he could have easily made that would fix their sex life. 




bandit.45 said:


> dumb


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## ReturntoZero

She's got her kids, you've served your purpose.

You may want to work on being more attractive. Discern what she's really about.


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## SunCMars

FeministInPink said:


> *Is it time to recommend No More Mr Nice Guy?*


Yes, awaken the Martians!
The Martian in you.
................................................................................................................................................
Awaken the Kraken.

Below the thunders of the upper deep; Far far beneath in the abysmal sea, His ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep The Kraken sleepeth: faintest sunlights flee About his shadowy sides; above him swell Huge sponges of millennial growth and height; And far away into the sickly light, From many a wondrous grot and secret cell Unnumber'd and enormous polypi Winnow with giant arms the slumbering green. There hath he lain for ages, and will lie Battening upon huge seaworms in his sleep, Until the latter fire shall heat the deep; Then once by man and angels to be seen, In roaring he shall rise and on the surface die. 
-Alfred Lord Tennyson.
...................................................................................................................................................

Women are mysterious, wondrous creatures. Men cannot allow them to run wild and run rampant.
We cannot be too nice, lest they bury us in.............
Uh, oh.

Just Sayin'
{under my breath}


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## 482

Well everyone else already said to grow a pair so I will not pound that home again. Start here http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-better-man-better-partner.html

Do you want an open marriage or are you the type that wants a one woman relationship? For instance I could never conceive my GF having sex with another man or woman and remaining in any type of a relationship will her. Her having desires for others but not me would force some quick action on my part. I agree with others. If she is not willing to meet your needs in marriage then why have one with her. Find someone that will make you happy. Don't ignore that link and all the books. It may or may not save your current marriage. If it does not it will be huge in your next relationship. 




dave90951 said:


> My wife and I are in our early 30s and have been married for about 5 years, we live in the midlands and have 2 young children.
> We used to have an active sex life but since the birth of our youngest daughter my wife won't have sex with me. We last had sex around a year ago and have only had sex maybe 3 or 4 times in last 3 years. She says she still loves me and wants to be with me but doesn't have the sexual desire towards me that she used to have.At first I put it down to post-natal depression but that has now resolved and her feelings towards me remain the same.
> 
> She recently told me that she sometimes gets the desire to have sex with other men e.g. from her work and even women too (she sometimes says how she would like to try a female-female sex). She says that she hasn't been unfaithful though. I will often try to initiate things but she will push me away and even prefer to watch erotic movies to pleasure herself instead of me while wearing earphones watching on her ipad at night while we are both in bed. So I end up just falling asleep instead. I have tried to watch with her but she pushes me away. Last week she said to me that I can have sex with other women if I want and that she will still love me.
> 
> We'll still chat to each other, go out on weekends etc with our children and watch tv together etc.
> 
> What is going on here, I just don't know


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## SunCMars

On the open marriage thing.

If a man really loves his wife: 

a. he will not share her.
b. when another man goes inside [her,] the husband's insides will just fold up and wither....without her.
c. he married her, not her and your' surrogates. Your stunt doubles, doppelgangers.
d. he puts a ring on her finger and locks the corral and her barn door to keep out predators.
e. he watches her intently, tucking her in at bedstead. And at night...he sleeps with one eye open and worries.

Note: 
I cleaned this up before I saved it.
Saving my dusty butt.


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## oldshirt

She has lost all sexual attraction and desire for you and no longer respects you as virile man or lover. 

She likely sees you as a provider that brings home a check and as an assistant childcare giver and housekeeper. 

She has lost respect for you as a man and women cannot desire men they do not respect. 

Some times these things can be turned around but she sounds pretty far gone and it would take a lot of hard work and a long time and there is a high likelihood that she will never be an active and enthusiastic lover for you again.

...... and she also sounds like a jerk and sounds downright cruel. 

If you want to be virile, real man again and want to have a healthy sex life again, it would probably be a lot easier and quicker to cut your losses here, divorce and find someone else that is actually attracted to you.


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## EleGirl

FeministInPink said:


> A few more posts came up while I was writing my comment. OP, do not let her coerce you into an open marriage, under the guise of it fixing things. That will be the beginning of the end, if you do.
> 
> Open marriages should only be entered into when the relationship is already healthy and BOTH people want it. Don't let her talk you into it.


I agree with this. She might be setting you up so that she can then cheat.


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## oldshirt

In regards to the open marriage proposition, I personally don't care if you do or if you don't. Neither is going to matter one way or the other because this train has already left the station. She already has zero attraction for you. What you do with your penis is no longer her concern. what's the worst that could happen, she has sex with you less???????

She sees you as so weak and pathetic that she knows you won't do it, so she might as well offer it to make herself feel good. She can always take it back and accuse you of cheating if do actually do it. 

It's a win-win for her to offer it. She knows you won't do it anyway so there is no harm in the offer. On the off chance you do go sniffing around other chicks, she can rest in peace and quiet until she finds someone else herself and then she can accuse you of adultery, tell everyone you are scoundrel, take half your stuff and the kids and collect her child support and alimony and have you pay for her new place with her new man (who she is laying like tile)

This is a dead marriage. 

You are a roommate that helps pay bills and helps with the babysitting chores. You have been effectively emasculated and reduced to a eunich. 

Your choice here is pretty simple, keep tucking your balls up between your legs like Wild Bill in Silence of the Lambs and keep being her maid and nanny and watch her masturbate to real men in porn videos and wait for her to leave you for someone else when the kids get a little older and she has more time. 

Or you can Velcro your balls back on and get a lawyer and start making a real life for yourself as a grown man.


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## happy as a clam

dave90951 said:


> ...yes she does seem to want sex still *but just not directed towards me* and I have to explore why.


I'll save you a few steps in your exploration. Bottom line: she's not attracted to you anymore. Women who are attracted to their partners want to have sex with them. Women who aren't, don't.

Can you get the spark back? That's still an unknown, but the odds are not in your favor.

Ask her directly why she is no longer attracted to you. Her answer will help you decide whether or not it's worth trying to repair.


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## EleGirl

dave90951 said:


> We'll still chat to each other, go out on weekends etc with our children and watch tv together etc.
> 
> What is going on here, I just don't know


Go out on weekend with your children?

You watch TV together.

So basically the two of you spend no quality time together, just the two of you, alone with no children around????

Watching TV is not quality time because you are not focused on each other, you are focused on the TV.

I agree with the others here that sex is essential in marriage. My bet is that your wife has lost desire to have sex with you because there is no non-sexual intimacy in your relationship.

Before you give up, get the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Read them an do the work that they say to do. Then, talk to her and ask her to read the books with you and do with work with you. Your marriage needs to be restructured so that your relationship is the at the center of your marriage/family. Children come second because children need for their parents to have a strong relationship.

You can being the passion back to your marriage, it takes work but it can be done.


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## SunCMars

Her offering other women to you serves two purposes.

It forces you into this open marriage.
It allows her to seek bed mates of every stripe, every color.

She is one step away from being another man's bed cover.
She is definitely trying to drive you away. Forcing your' hand, crushing your vowed resolve.

The strongest power that a women possesses is the power of her Velvet Glove.
She is back handing you with this...Salt Lake TabberNooky Organ.

You have very young children and she wants to open your marriage? A powerful urge.
One that overpowers the innate Maternal Urge, a very rare thing, this. Troublesome.


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## GusPolinski

“I don’t want to have sex with you.

I _do_, however, often want to have sex with co-workers.

I haven’t done it, though.

Oh, and I’d be OK if you had sex with other women.”

LOL.

Check the phone bill.


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## MattMatt

EleGirl said:


> I agree with this. She might be setting you up so that she can then cheat.


But if she lets him have a lover, why, then, it wouldn't be cheating, would it? 
@dave90951, me old mate, from one Midlander to another, there is something wrong, here.

Is your wife suffering from depression? A hormonal disorder?

I think these issues should be checked out by your doctor. 

Also, counselling (as a couple and as individuals) would be of assistance, I think.

Your wife might need psychotherapy.

And don't take up the offer of you being allowed other women, this might be a test for you or it might be a sign that she has a low self esteem. perhaps as a result of a depressive illness?


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## marriageontherocks2

dave90951 said:


> i don't believe she is gay(in response to 2 above), she had multiple boyfriends before me and i think she is just curious regarding that


Your wife denies you sex while watching porn and masturbating right next to you and you think you'll be able to get laid in an open marriage? Your wife knows if she opens the marriage she's the only one getting outside action.


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## john117

FeministInPink said:


> Is it time to recommend No More Mr Nice Guy?


It's past that time by about 2 years.


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## sokillme

chillymorn69 said:


> Any woman who openly confesses she has a sex drive for other men and would like to try women is just begging for divorce.
> 
> I say give her one.
> 
> Try to find out why she don't feel loved? I call balony on this. She should comunicate why she don't feel loved. Not with hold sex and tell her husband she gets aroused by other men and woman and maybe would like to try sex with a woman.
> 
> Its like a moving target how the hell are you supposed to figure it out with a woman who plays these games. Its down right cruel. Messed up . Why would you even want to try to have sex with someone who would treat you this way.
> 
> Desire should be reciprocated or never mind! I'd rather spank it than have sex with someone who really don't want or desire me.


Yeah, sounds like your marriage is over.


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## Rob_1

OP, just by the way you come off in your posts, it is clear that your wife does not longer sees you as a man. Whatever which way you have evolved in this relationship you are not seen as a strong desirable male to your wife. Just going by your posts you come off strongly beta.

You seem to be completely afraid to take actions. Be a man grow a pair and do what needs to be done to get out of this relationship with your pride and dignity intact. You're not losing your kids, you'll be co-parenting. Your wife already lost respect for you, and basically told you she wants to zuck around, and you are just standing there being paralyzed by fear. No wonder why she does not even wants you to touch her.


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## Personal

uhtred said:


> Dear wife. Is there anything I can do, anyway I can change to make you enjoy sex with me again. Are you willing to go to to a marriage counselor with me to see if we can fix this?
> 
> If not, you have to know that I don't want to live the rest of my life celibate. If you want to stay married, we can try an open marriage where we are each free to sleep with anyone we want. Most likely one or the other of us will develop an attraction to a new partner and the marriage will end anyway, but we can try if you like. Otherwise we should divorce as equitably as possible and try to stay on friendly terms for the children.


That is terribly passive! If @dave90951 wants to double down on his celibacy through his wife not being attracted to him, he should follow your advice.


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## Personal

dave90951 said:


> We last had sex around a year ago and have only had sex maybe 3 or 4 times in last 3 years.


Do yourself a favour and end your marital farce.


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## uhtred

What do you suggest?




Personal said:


> That is terribly passive! If @dave90951 wants to double down on his celibacy through his wife not being attracted to him, he should follow your advice.


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## Evinrude58

It's hard as hell to make the decision to drastically alter your own life. But, you need to detach. You need to quietly look for other women and DETACH, because you clearly lack the discipline to do it the right way and by divorce her.
Thing is--- you haven't had sex in years. The few times you did likely wasn't real sex, just duty ****.
I think she has been cheating a long time. 
And I think she has zero feelings for you. A woman wants to have sex with the man she loves. A person in love is repulsed at the thought of having sex with someone else, for real. 

You need to detach, and do it fast, and divorce. The sad reality is your wife doesn't love you. I'm very sorry. This stuff doesn't get better and you'll waste years of happiness with someone else if you do nothing.


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## Herschel

She is a confused lesbian. I went through this. Get out.


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## Personal

uhtred said:


> What do you suggest?


I suggest he and all men for that matter ought to avoid using your approach. Since as you know through your own experience, for the most part it doesn't get you much if any sex at all.


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## uhtred

But what do you suggest that he *do*. Specifically?







Personal said:


> I suggest he and all men for that matter ought to avoid using your approach. Since as you know through your own experience, for the most part it doesn't get you much if any sex at all.


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## Personal

uhtred said:


> But what do you suggest that he *do*. Specifically?


Dump her!


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## Spicy

This marriage has no survivors. Bury it. Energy should be used elsewhere.


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## aine

dave90951 said:


> My wife and I are in our early 30s and have been married for about 5 years, we live in the midlands and have 2 young children.
> We used to have an active sex life but since the birth of our youngest daughter my wife won't have sex with me. We last had sex around a year ago and have only had sex maybe 3 or 4 times in last 3 years. She says she still loves me and wants to be with me but doesn't have the sexual desire towards me that she used to have.At first I put it down to post-natal depression but that has now resolved and her feelings towards me remain the same.
> 
> She recently told me that she sometimes gets the desire to have sex with other men e.g. from her work and even women too (she sometimes says how she would like to try a female-female sex). She says that she hasn't been unfaithful though. I will often try to initiate things but she will push me away and even prefer to watch erotic movies to pleasure herself instead of me while wearing earphones watching on her ipad at night while we are both in bed. So I end up just falling asleep instead. I have tried to watch with her but she pushes me away. Last week she said to me that I can have sex with other women if I want and that she will still love me.
> 
> We'll still chat to each other, go out on weekends etc with our children and watch tv together etc.
> 
> What is going on here, I just don't know


YOu wife may actually be lesbian, no straight woman wants to have female -female sex. You should consider seeing a sex therapist and take it from there.


----------



## snerg

uhtred said:


> But what do you suggest that he *do*. Specifically?


1) Lawyer. Know your rights
2) start divorce process
3) Find therapist for you

You wife is not into you.

Why stay in a relationship that causes you harm?


----------



## SunCMars

aine said:


> YOu wife may actually be lesbian, no straight woman wants to have female -female sex. You should consider seeing a sex therapist and take it from there.


Yes, and no.

*She wants sex. She wants sexual release.* And she should. She has had very little these last few years [her choice].

I think she has a fear and contempt of/for men. She is considering all options.
Contemplating, analizing, looking at every loop hole. Leaving no fuzzy fantasy covered by a fig leaf. No figment of her imagination off limits.

And all this with small children running between her legs. Troubling.

She needs therapy.
He needs a divorce.


----------



## oldshirt

MattMatt said:


> But if she lets him have a lover, why, then, it wouldn't be cheating, would it?
> 
> @dave90951, me old mate, from one Midlander to another, there is something wrong, here.
> 
> Is your wife suffering from depression? A hormonal disorder?
> 
> I think these issues should be checked out by your doctor. I
> 
> Also, counselling (as a couple and as individuals) would be of assistance, I think.
> 
> Your wife might need psychotherapy.
> 
> And don't take up the offer of you being allowed other women, this might be a test for you or it might be a sign that she has a low self esteem. perhaps as a result of a depressive illness?



People that have depression do not masturbate to porn in front of their spouse while telling their spouse that they want to screw their coworkers.

Jerks that have zero respect, zero compassion and zero attraction for their partner do that.


----------



## JayDee7

This marriage is over buddy. You?ll find a woman who will desire you to take her sexually, don?t waste your time with your horrible wife.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

dave90951 said:


> Thanks, what you say makes sense. I have done crazy things like look on affair websites but I'm not sure I could go through with signing up and actually meeting women like that. But i may have to eventually i guess, if the situation doesn't change.
> 
> The other post before was interesting too- yes she does seem to want sex still but just not directed towards me and I have to explore why. I don't believe i'm cruel to her in any way and I always try to do things for her and am actively involved with looking after the kids. Not sure where I can improve really to make her want me again


I gotta be honest with you.

Your neediness, your inability to stand up for yourself, your continued begging for sex and affection, and your complete passivity are really just extremely unattractive. It's not manly at all.

At *all*.

That's why she's making noise about wanting to have sex with other guys. I know she mentioned being bi curious too, but she mentioned sex with *other men*. She doesn't see you as desirable at all.

Strong, confident UN-needy men are attractive. Weak, needy men are not.


----------



## uhtred

Thats reasonable, but I think he said he was unwilling to leave his children. Thats his choice - its a difficult choice between sex and your children, but I can't fault anyone for choosing their children. If they divorce he could spend some time with them, but not as much.



Personal said:


> Dump her!


----------



## toblerone

If my wife talked about thinking about sex with other dudes (whether or not she wanted to have sex with me), I'd leave her.

If my wife was jillin' off to porn next to me in bed and not giving it up to me, I'd go ballistic, and then leave her.

eff that b


----------



## JayDee7

OP don?t fall for the open marriage ploy. You open the marriage and then you have to start going out looking for women who are willing to have meaningless sex with a married man, that means spending time and money trying to hook up and have maybe a 1 in 10 chance. It?ll exhaust you. 

She wants sex with other men and women. You know as well as I do she can go out and get laid every night of the week because she?s breathing and has a vagina. 

She?s not attracted to you man, she wants other men, it?s over.


----------



## oldshirt

JayDee7 said:


> OP don?t fall for the open marriage ploy. You open the marriage and then you have to start going out looking for women who are willing to have meaningless sex with a married man, that means spending time and money trying to hook up and have maybe a 1 in 10 chance. It?ll exhaust you.
> 
> She wants sex with other men and women. You know as well as I do she can go out and get laid every night of the week because she?s breathing and has a vagina.
> 
> She?s not attracted to you man, she wants other men, it?s over.


That's a whole other topic, but yes, Beta Boy Dave would not be able to get another woman without shelling out some pretty big bucks to a professional provider.

His wife knows he won't be able to get anyone else so she feels completely emboldened to offer him that.


----------



## oldshirt

uhtred said:


> Thats reasonable, but I think he said he was unwilling to leave his children. Thats his choice - its a difficult choice between sex and your children, but I can't fault anyone for choosing their children. If they divorce he could spend some time with them, but not as much.


There's such a thing called shared custody. 

She will also likely let him have the kids on her custodial nights so she can date and screw all of her other suitors. 

He will have as much time with the kids as he wants.


----------



## SunCMars

You know.

This is one of those cases where I ALMOST side with the sex starved wife. 
I admit, she is starving herself.

She should just divorce, even with young children.
We call OP weak, and he is.
She is also weak, devious, and jaded. She is a user.
She wants OP's money and nothing else. 
Understanding her position, and I do, is not accepting it.

This is yet another case where two mates are not compatible and do not have any chemistry holding them together.

But, she would rather be mean. Be a torturess.
Torturing her husband.
Torturing herself.

She too, needs to get off her ass and divorce poor OP.
He wants to stay for the children's sake and then moans about it.
OP, suck it up...or move out. Start a new life.


----------



## TAM2013

FeministInPink said:


> Women need to feel loved to want to have sex.


Yeah? Is she feeling the 'love' from her prospective fvck buddies?



FeministInPink said:


> Open marriages should only be entered into when the relationship is already healthy and BOTH people want it.


So she's feeling the 'love' at home but is still entitled to fvck buddies?



aine said:


> YOu wife may actually be lesbian, no straight woman wants to have female -female sex. You should consider seeing a sex therapist and take it from there.


I thought it was a modern, progressive womans right of passage to have a fling with a girlfriend? Holy sh!t?

Sounds like she's a confused product of decades of womens lib, empowerment, 3rd wave feminism, leftist lunacy, me me me, too much porn and a general disregard for the nuclear family to me.

Go grrrrl.


----------



## 482

oldshirt said:


> Your choice here is pretty simple, keep tucking your balls up between your legs like Wild Bill in Silence of the Lambs and keep being her maid and nanny and watch her masturbate to real men in porn videos and wait for her to leave you for someone else when the kids get a little older and she has more time.
> 
> Or you can Velcro your balls back on and get a lawyer and start making a real life for yourself as a grown man.


Killing me here. True but still very funny :smthumbup:


----------



## leon2100

you have a very weird situation. If all your saying is true, then you need a good lawyer. No need to live this way. Life is to darn short.


----------



## 482

happy as a clam said:


> I'll save you a few steps in your exploration. Bottom line: she's not attracted to you anymore. Women who are attracted to their partners want to have sex with them. Women who aren't, don't.
> 
> Can you get the spark back? That's still an unknown, but the odds are not in your favor.
> 
> Ask her directly why she is no longer attracted to you. Her answer will help you decide whether or not it's worth trying to repair.


Her loss of respect for him and lack of desire may not even be something she can verbalize. If she does she may just say what she is thinking it is because she is not sure. It may be completely subconscious. Lots of attraction is like this. Biology also has a role. Several have asked about his health in regard to how attractive he is but I have not read an answer to that yet. He should just do the work to become a better man. It will reverse this for him or set him up for it not happening again in his next relationship. If not it will happen again. Don't seek approval from her. Just do the work that makes a man attractive to all women.


----------



## toblerone

TAM2013 said:


> Sounds like she's a confused product of decades of womens lib, empowerment, 3rd wave feminism, leftist lunacy, me me me, too much porn and a general disregard for the nuclear family to me.
> 
> Go grrrrl.


Do you feel like you need to get something off your chest?


----------



## NickTheChemist

Man. This is s very difficult situation. I can relate-but not to that extent. 

You must consider your children first here. Man up and deal with being sex starved until they are adults if you must, as difficult as that is. YOU chose this partner and chose to have children. It is not fair to them to split unless you are trying to remove them from an sbusive situation. IMO, it is much better to stay together for the children and have some sexual agreement or GF on the side than to rock their world because of your poor choices.

For me, things got better.... gradually ... once I was honest with myself and changed MY behavior towards her. I started standing up to her when appropriate and regained respect for myself. I started taking her at her word with everything-I’d ask if she was okay and if she gave a pissy “I’m fine”. I’d smile and say okay Great and go on my way rather than assume she was pissed at me and try to make her happy. We are both happier now and sex is 1-2 times a week as applied to 7-8 times a year. 

Have you considered this could be a phycological thing she is dealing with? Maybe she is affected by something in her past and is shutting down emotionally when you try to pry her open (emotionally)

I hope the best for you


----------



## toblerone

NickTheChemist said:


> Man up and deal with being sex starved until they are adults if you must, as difficult as that is. YOU chose this partner and chose to have children. It is not fair to them to split unless you are trying to remove them from an sbusive situation. IMO, it is much better to stay together for the children and have some sexual agreement or GF on the side than to rock their world because of your poor choices.


hoo boy


----------



## NickTheChemist

Yeah,... maybe a bit harsh.

I’m not blaming you, OP. Nor do I mean to marginalize the serious issue of no sex—it is an awful, lonely feeling... and being denied over and over... sucks bad.

My point is that your children’s well being and their emotional needs being met is more important than your sexual/emotional needs being met. 

I admire your desire for your wife despite awful cercimstances, and hope that you can find a wild and active fun sex life with her again.


----------



## bandit.45

I can't believe there are so many here espousing open marriage, even though I know a few of you are doing it facetiously as a way to make a point, but... 

Open marriage is a farce, and it is one-sided and skewed in the woman's favor from the very start. Any woman can go out and pass herself around to multiple men each day without even trying. Men are horndogs and will rarely turn down sex that is freely offered to them. 

Even the most handsome, studly man could not draw a fraction of the number of partners that a "so-so" looking woman could in a single day.


----------



## oldshirt

SunCMars said:


> You know.
> 
> This is one of those cases where I ALMOST side with the sex starved wife.
> I admit, she is starving herself.
> 
> She should just divorce, even with young children.
> We call OP weak, and he is.
> She is also weak, devious, and jaded. She is a user.
> She wants OP's money and nothing else.
> Understanding her position, and I do, is not accepting it.
> 
> This is yet another case where two mates are not compatible and do not have any chemistry holding them together.
> 
> But, she would rather be mean. Be a torturess.
> Torturing her husband.
> Torturing herself.
> 
> She too, needs to get off her ass and divorce poor OP.
> He wants to stay for the children's sake and then moans about it.
> OP, suck it up...or move out. Start a new life.


Its in her best interests to keep him in the house. He helps with the kids and presumably brings home a paycheck. I would also imagine that he also does a wide range of other household tasks to appease her.

He doesn't even get in her way when she spanks to porn and he lends her an empathetic ear when she talks about her attractions and desires for other men.

And is she does hook up with these other men (in case she hasn't already) he will be there to hear her stories and to launder her semen-stained underwear. And he will likely be there as a shoulder to cry on and hand her tissues when these other men pump and dump her.

He is in essence the perfect girlfriend and roommate. 

Why would she want to get rid of that????

She is perfectly content. He is the one that is dissatisfied here.

If he wants a relationship with a woman that respects him, is attracted to him and treats him like a man, he will have to take it upon himself and leave her and find someone else.

She is not going to do that for him. She has no reason to.


----------



## oldshirt

NickTheChemist said:


> My point is that your children’s well being and their emotional needs being met is more important than your sexual/emotional needs being met.
> 
> .


Assuming they are both loving, supportive and involved parents and assuming neither is chemically addicted, abusive or negligent to a dangerous degree, then the kids needs can be met by two parents that happen to live in two different homes. 

"For the children" is not a valid excuse for him to tolerate this situation. 

In fact A very good argument can be made that this environment and dynamic is actually detrimental to the children.

She is role modeling that women are cruel and abusive to the fathers of their children and that they exploit and manipulate men to do their bidding by withholding affection and intimacy. 

And he is role modeling that men are weak and pathetic creature who suplicate to women and provide for their abusers in hopes of scoring some poon some day.

This is not a healthy and functional family environment so arguments to tolerate this situation for the children's well being is without validity.


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
It may be otherwise but occasionally these situations are tests. She may be waiting for you to rear up and say ENOUGH. This ends now. If you want to be with coworkers then go, if you want porn stars to be your enticement then fine, if you want another woman, so be it. You can do all of that WITHOUT ME. I want a wife, a partner and a lover and I will not allow myself to be treated this way any longer. You want to split up our family, destroy our marriage then go but know my days of laying next to you while you self pleasure to porn ARE DONE.

I know you do not wish to lose your children full time but you could be a better parent to them if you were truly happy inside. Also, it will skew their perception of marriage if they see you constantly down and mom going out on dates.


----------



## NickyT

First things first, Dave. Don't let Colorado Guy work out his own issues in your life. How well would it (or does it) work for you when your wife demands you do something immediately? Does it make you want to be intimate with her when she demands you fix something, clean something or do anything you are not inclined to do? Demanding sex as he suggests is not only going to not get you sex, it will alienate the warm relationship you seem to have outside the bedroom.

You are in your thirties, have been married a while, and have a couple of kids...probably a home to take care of, bills to pay, etc. What you are experiencing is not that unusual. Your wife is a mother which to a woman in a 24 hour a day job. You are the guy who got her in that situation. Meh, let's not do that again when I can pleasure myself. It risks pregnancy and frankly is too much work! Every woman I know has been through this stage in her marriage. The key here is reversing it and getting your wife to enjoy you, her life outside of motherhood, and intimate time (sexual and non-sexual) with you.

The one place I do agree with Colorado Guy is that you need to get some balls. Your bed is a place of intimacy between the two of you. It must be protected just as you would protect the privacy of your house in general. Anything that interferes with the intimacy of the marriage must be removed. You need to very clearly and calmly tell your wife this, and then you both must agree that there will be NO electronics in the bedroom (if you are really serious, that mean no tv.) For your wife to be masturbating to porn and excluding you....she is all but cheating. It's the coward's way of cheating. It not only destroys the intimacy, it is hurtful to you and your manhood. You need to be clear about that, but approach it from the (valid) standpoint of the fact that you want your wife back. You love her. What she is doing hurts you and by extension the strength of your family. 

Next, you need to start spending time with your wife alone and letting her know you still think about her. Small things accomplish this. 
Leave her a note on her bathroom mirror saying "Hi gorgeous!", get a sitter for an hour and take her out for an ice cream cone (or some little thing you both like). Don't expect anything at first. You have some groundwork to lay. Put it on your calendar if you have to - at least 2x per week you will surprise her in some way (notes, flowers, wash her car and tell her it's now as pretty as she is, compliment her on her work, mothering, crafts, etc). 1x per week you will do something for the two of you - a short date, dinner out if you can manage it, talk about a movie you want to rent and then make popcorn and watch it together. Basically, you are letting her know that she is valued by you the same as she was when you are dating.

Be good to the children. Don't lose your temper with them if you might otherwise. Take them outside to play while she makes dinner. Or take them out for a donut on Saturday morning so she can have an hour to herself. No woman can resist a man who is good to her children. Talk to her about what you enjoy about the kids. We have one kid who was a total pain in the arse. I remember one day when I was at my wits end with her, and my husband acknowledged everything I said and then he said, "But you know, she has your sweet nature. She is going to grow up as wonderful as you are." Let me tell you, he got sex that day!

Then comes the talk about sex....after you have wooed her a bit. I think you do have to be firm on your expectations. I think she needs to be reminded the difference between the relief of sexual tension that comes from pleasuring yourself and the true satisfaction of an orgasm via sex, but the only way to do that is to experience it! 

Good luck. I hope that helps.


----------



## toblerone

NickyT said:


> First things first, Dave.


lol have you even read first post of the thread?

edit: oh my god you did, and none of it sunk in


----------



## FeministInPink

toblerone said:


> lol have you even read first post of the thread?
> 
> edit: oh my god you did, and none of it sunk in


At least she is offering some insight into the way women think, and offering some alternatives other than "she's a lesbian" or "she's having an affair" or "your marriage is over, divorce her."


----------



## NickyT

toblerone said:


> lol have you even read first post of the thread?
> 
> edit: oh my god you did, and none of it sunk in


What? From Colorado Guy?


----------



## toblerone

No, from the original post.

Like, I get that a wife could feel overwhelmed by child and work and all that...


... but if she's pushing her husband away _while_ also telling him that she thinks about sex with other guys and girls at work _and_ jills off to porn right next to him in bed and not giving it up to him _while_ telling him she doesn't have that sexual desire towards him anymore...

that kind of **** absolutely cannot be brushed off as she's feeling stressed or whatever


----------



## Diana7

toblerone said:


> No, from the original post.
> 
> Like, I get that a wife could feel overwhelmed by child and work and all that...
> 
> 
> ... but if she's pushing her husband away _while_ also telling him that she thinks about sex with other guys and girls at work _and_ jills off to porn right next to him in bed and not giving it up to him _while_ telling him she doesn't have that sexual desire towards him anymore...
> 
> that kind of **** absolutely cannot be brushed off as she's feeling stressed or whatever


Agreed. Her actions are unbelievable, completely selfish and very cruel. I would not want to be with someone who treated me in such a terrible way. I find it hard to think that anyone can act like this.


----------



## FeministInPink

toblerone said:


> No, from the original post.
> 
> Like, I get that a wife could feel overwhelmed by child and work and all that...
> 
> 
> ... but if she's pushing her husband away _while_ also telling him that she thinks about sex with other guys and girls at work _and_ jills off to porn right next to him in bed and not giving it up to him _while_ telling him she doesn't have that sexual desire towards him anymore...
> 
> that kind of **** absolutely cannot be brushed off as she's feeling stressed or whatever


HOWEVER if a woman is feeling dissatisfied in her primary relationship, it could lead to her fantasizing about other people and wanting sex with other people. If her relationship becomes more satisfying and she starts sexing it up with her husband again, those other thoughts will go away.


----------



## GuyInColorado

Not seeing your kids every night is bittersweet. Sure you miss them when they are gone but then you don't. Every other weekend off to go on a trip without kids or just be lazy and have no responsibilities? Awesome. My kids can Facetime me and their mom anytime they want, doesn't matter who's house they are at. They are kids.. they function just fine without one of the parents in the house. Don't let them see your joke of a marriage as an example. Would you want your kids to be in a miserable marriage like you? Hell no!

Don't let your kids keep you from being happy. That's not fair to you or them.


----------



## samyeagar

NickTheChemist said:


> Man. This is s very difficult situation. I can relate-but not to that extent.
> 
> You must consider your children first here. Man up and deal with being sex starved until they are adults if you must, as difficult as that is. YOU chose this partner and chose to have children. It is not fair to them to split unless you are trying to remove them from an sbusive situation. IMO, it is much better to stay together for the children and have some sexual agreement or GF on the side than to rock their world because of your poor choices.
> 
> For me, things got better.... gradually ... once I was honest with myself and changed MY behavior towards her. I started standing up to her when appropriate and regained respect for myself. I started taking her at her word with everything-I’d ask if she was okay and if she gave a pissy “I’m fine”. I’d smile and say okay Great and go on my way rather than assume she was pissed at me and try to make her happy. We are both happier now and sex is 1-2 times a week as applied to 7-8 times a year.
> 
> Have you considered this could be a phycological thing she is dealing with? Maybe she is affected by something in her past and is shutting down emotionally when you try to pry her open (emotionally)
> 
> I hope the best for you


I convinced myself to stay in my former marriage because of the kids. I consider that to be truly the worst mistake I have ever made in my life.


----------



## FeministInPink

And she's probably jerking herself off in front of him as a way to punish him... she wants to hurt him the way she feels hurt inside. The way she perceives that he is hurting her.

There are unmet expectations (likely uncommunicated expectations) in this relationship which are causing problems.


----------



## samyeagar

NickyT said:


> First things first, Dave. Don't let Colorado Guy work out his own issues in your life. How well would it (or does it) work for you when your wife demands you do something immediately? Does it make you want to be intimate with her when she demands you fix something, clean something or do anything you are not inclined to do? Demanding sex as he suggests is not only going to not get you sex, it will alienate the warm relationship you seem to have outside the bedroom.
> 
> You are in your thirties, have been married a while, and have a couple of kids...probably a home to take care of, bills to pay, etc. What you are experiencing is not that unusual. Your wife is a mother which to a woman in a 24 hour a day job. You are the guy who got her in that situation. Meh, let's not do that again when I can pleasure myself. It risks pregnancy and frankly is too much work! Every woman I know has been through this stage in her marriage. The key here is reversing it and getting your wife to enjoy you, her life outside of motherhood, and intimate time (sexual and non-sexual) with you.
> 
> The one place I do agree with Colorado Guy is that you need to get some balls. Your bed is a place of intimacy between the two of you. It must be protected just as you would protect the privacy of your house in general. Anything that interferes with the intimacy of the marriage must be removed. You need to very clearly and calmly tell your wife this, and then you both must agree that there will be NO electronics in the bedroom (if you are really serious, that mean no tv.) For your wife to be masturbating to porn and excluding you....she is all but cheating. It's the coward's way of cheating. It not only destroys the intimacy, it is hurtful to you and your manhood. You need to be clear about that, but approach it from the (valid) standpoint of the fact that you want your wife back. You love her. What she is doing hurts you and by extension the strength of your family.
> 
> Next, you need to start spending time with your wife alone and letting her know you still think about her. Small things accomplish this.
> Leave her a note on her bathroom mirror saying "Hi gorgeous!", get a sitter for an hour and take her out for an ice cream cone (or some little thing you both like). Don't expect anything at first. You have some groundwork to lay. Put it on your calendar if you have to - at least 2x per week you will surprise her in some way (notes, flowers, wash her car and tell her it's now as pretty as she is, compliment her on her work, mothering, crafts, etc). 1x per week you will do something for the two of you - a short date, dinner out if you can manage it, talk about a movie you want to rent and then make popcorn and watch it together. Basically, you are letting her know that she is valued by you the same as she was when you are dating.
> 
> Be good to the children. Don't lose your temper with them if you might otherwise. Take them outside to play while she makes dinner. Or take them out for a donut on Saturday morning so she can have an hour to herself. No woman can resist a man who is good to her children. Talk to her about what you enjoy about the kids. We have one kid who was a total pain in the arse. I remember one day when I was at my wits end with her, and my husband acknowledged everything I said and then he said, "But you know, she has your sweet nature. She is going to grow up as wonderful as you are." Let me tell you, he got sex that day!
> 
> Then comes the talk about sex....after you have wooed her a bit. I think you do have to be firm on your expectations. I think she needs to be reminded the difference between the relief of sexual tension that comes from pleasuring yourself and the true satisfaction of an orgasm via sex, but the only way to do that is to experience it!
> 
> Good luck. I hope that helps.


We have a decent description of the OP's wife's words and behaviours in a few of the OP's posts. Given that...

You describe above what you consider to be almost all women, how they think, how they feel, how they would respond. Since you are providing that as what you would consider useful insight, and possible remedy in response to his wife, are you also then considering her words and behaviour as how most normal women behave?


----------



## NickyT

samyeagar said:


> We have a decent description of the OP's wife's words and behaviours in a few of the OP's posts. Given that...
> 
> You describe above what you consider to be almost all women, how they think, how they feel, how they would respond. Since you are providing that as what you would consider useful insight, and possible remedy in response to his wife, are you also then considering her words and behaviour as how most normal women behave?



Seriously? How about you go after the guy who said she was a lesbian? Or the guy who said he should simply demand sex under threat of divorce?? 

Not sure where you get the idea I think I speak for all women. All I said was that every woman I know that has had more than one child has gone through a phase of her life with her husband where she did not want to bother with sex. I don't speak for all women, and I don't profess to know what is normal and what is not. I did not indicate I did.

He and his wife has an intimacy problem. I took that at face value with no judgment on the normalcy of it. He can take or leave my advice as to how to coax her around. I have no idea as to whether his wife is normal or not. 

Maybe I'll change my response. Perhaps I will suggest that he insist on sex on demand. If she refuses to do her marital duty, he should kick her out. She can take the damn kids with her. Further, he needs to make it known that she is a damn lesbian. He needs to be a man for god's sake. He needs to show her who has the balls in the family.


----------



## samyeagar

NickyT said:


> Seriously? How about you go after the guy who said she was a lesbian? Or the guy who said he should simply demand sex under threat of divorce??
> 
> Not sure where you get the idea I think I speak for all women. All I said was that every woman I know that has had more than one child has gone through a phase of her life with her husband where she did not want to bother with sex. I don't speak for all women, and I don't profess to know what is normal and what is not. I did not indicate I did.
> 
> He and his wife has an intimacy problem. I took that at face value with no judgment on the normalcy of it. He can take or leave my advice as to how to coax her around. I have no idea as to whether his wife is normal or not.
> 
> Maybe I'll change my response. Perhaps I will suggest that he insist on sex on demand. If she refuses to do her marital duty, he should kick her out. She can take the damn kids with her. Further, he needs to make it known that she is a damn lesbian. He needs to be a man for god's sake. He needs to show her who has the balls in the family.


So do you consider the wife's behaviour to be normal, how most women are?


----------



## oldshirt

FeministInPink said:


> And she's probably jerking herself off in front of him as a way to punish him... she wants to hurt him the way she feels hurt inside. The way she perceives that he is hurting her.
> 
> There are unmet expectations (likely uncommunicated expectations) in this relationship which are causing problems.


Doing something to intentionally with the purpose of causing another distress or pain is abuse and cruelty.

I know you are not meaning it like this but you are essentially saying that he should be working harder to meet the needs of his abuser.

If a wife was being beaten and abused by her husband, I know you well enough through your posts to know that you would not advise her to do a better job picking up after the kids, making better meals and offering him more BJs. 

Why is this different but it is a male being abused?

He is being intentionally mistreated and tormented.

A wife that is simply too overwhelmed and exhausted to be sexual with her H does not spank to porn infront of him but let let him touch. And she does not tell him that she would be sexual with other men and women but does not want any sex with him.

This is not a case of not meeting her legitimate needs.

This is a case of poor character and mistreatment on her part and weakens and learned helplessness on his part.


----------



## FeministInPink

oldshirt said:


> Doing something to intentionally with the purpose of causing another distress or pain is abuse and cruelty.
> 
> I know you are not meaning it like this but you are essentially saying that he should be working harder to meet the needs of his abuser.
> 
> If a wife was being beaten and abused by her husband, I know you well enough through your posts to know that you would not advise her to do a better job picking up after the kids, making better meals and offering him more BJs.
> 
> Why is this different but it is a male being abused?
> 
> He is being intentionally mistreated and tormented.
> 
> A wife that is simply too overwhelmed and exhausted to be sexual with her H does not spank to porn infront of him but let let him touch. And she does not tell him that she would be sexual with other men and women but does not want any sex with him.
> 
> This is not a case of not meeting her legitimate needs.
> 
> This is a case of poor character and mistreatment on her part and weakens and learned helplessness on his part.


I didn't say her behavior is HEALTHY, or that I condone it. But I think this is what she is doing.

A lot of people exhibit/revert to dysfunctional behavior when they aren't getting their needs met. The more people I meet, the more I think that everyone is dysfunctional in their own way.


----------



## NickyT

samyeagar said:


> So do you consider the wife's behaviour to be normal, how most women are?


I do not know how most women are. I know that of the women I know who have had multiple children, they all went through a phase where they did not want to bother with sex. Now, they did not, as far as I know, masturbate to porn in front of their husbands while pushing the husband away, nor did they tell their husbands to have sex outside the marriage. These are hurtful things the will break their marriage IMO. I addressed the former by saying he needed to address it. I did not address the latter. 

As to the latter, she can not say things like this without accepting the consequences. Perhaps she is saying these things just to get him off her back as it were. To me, she sounds like a women who just wants to be left alone and is shutting down emotionally. He says they have an amicable relationship outside the marriage, so I took this comment as very immature and hurtful. IMO, he needs to be firm about how it makes him feel. For him to go ahead with it...well, I think that would be a disaster for everyone involved unless she truly means it. Perhaps she does. I would hope she did not....and I would hope he would be able to convey to her the gravity of her words and actions.

Gentlemen, I do not agree with how the wife is handling this situation. I think her behavior is hurtful and selfish. With the marriage otherwise intact, I think addressing the situation is the first line of attack. Maybe they are past that. I do not know. I assumed they were not and he wanted advice. I gave what I had. Lay the eff off.


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## 482

NickyT said:


> Maybe I'll change my response. Perhaps I will suggest that he insist on sex on demand. If she refuses to do her marital duty, he should kick her out.


More like become attractive and make sure you're needs in the marriage are clearly communicated. Not sure demanding sex is a good way to go. Does not seem like that would go over good with anyone. Unless it was her demanding it from me, I would grab her and ****** the ***** out of her, lol. I think in marriage when you promise fidelity it comes with a promise to be active in having a fulfilling sex life. If I had issues like the OP is describing for as long as he had them I would not be happy and she would know it right away. If she had no interest in resolving it with me I would take that as her not having any interest in satisfying one of my core needs in the marriage. I would have no choice but to divorce her and find my own happiness. I will be everything she needs but I expect the same back. This is the opposite of what the OP is describing though. Its more like she is tormenting him and he is just taking it. 

But this is me. I have no problem finding my own happiness and doing what I think is right without the fear of confirmation. 

The OP needs to take her of the pedestal and seriously start to feel what it would be like to leave her. Make it a real option in his mind. It currently is not.

Also have the balls to stand up top her and tell her this **** is not going to fly with as little words as possible. You have needs not wants. 

Like I said before http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-better-man-better-partner.html


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## samyeagar

482 said:


> More like become attractive and make sure you're needs in the marriage are clearly communicated. Not sure demanding sex is a good way to go. Does not seem like that would go over good with anyone. Unless it was her demanding it from me, I would grab her and ****** the ***** out of her, lol. I think in marriage when you promise fidelity it comes with a promise to be active in having a fulfilling sex life. If I had issues like the OP is describing for as long as he had them I would not be happy and she would know it right away. If she had no interest in resolving it with me I would take that as her not having any interest in satisfying one of my core needs in the marriage. I would have no choice but to divorce her and find my own happiness. I will be everything she needs but I expect the same back. This is the opposite of what the OP is describing though. Its more like she is tormenting him and he is just taking it.
> 
> But this is me. I have no problem finding my own happiness and doing what I think is right without the fear of confirmation.
> 
> The OP needs to take her of the pedestal and seriously start to feel what it would be like to leave her. Make it a real option in his mind. It currently is not.
> 
> Also have the balls to stand up top her and tell her this **** is not going to fly with as little words as possible. You have needs not wants.
> 
> Like I said before http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-better-man-better-partner.html


He needs to vacuum the ever loving hell out of the floors. Chicks dig that.


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## 482

samyeagar said:


> He needs to vacuum the ever loving hell out of the floors. Chicks dig that.


:lol:


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## bandit.45

FeministInPink said:


> HOWEVER if a woman is feeling dissatisfied in her primary relationship, it could lead to her fantasizing about other people and wanting sex with other people. If her relationship becomes more satisfying and she starts sexing it up with her husband again, those other thoughts will go away.


Yeah...but to masturbate to porn right in front of him in the marital bed? That's just sleazy and gross. Unless it is a shared kink that both the husband and wife enjoy together, I don't know of any guy who would want a woman who does something like that.


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## toblerone

FIP went on to state that what the wife is doing is mean and wrong and doesn't condone it.


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## FeministInPink

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah...but to masturbate to porn right in front of him in the marital bed? That's just sleazy and gross. Unless it is a shared kink that both the husband and wife enjoy together, I don't know of any guy who would want a woman who does something like that.


Like I said in a later comment, I think she might be doing it to punish him. (and yes, sleazy and gross unless it is a shared kink, which I don't think it is here)

Which is NOT healthy, and I do NOT condone. Just in case there was any doubt.


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## bandit.45

FeministInPink said:


> Like I said in a later comment, I think she might be doing it to punish him. (and yes, sleazy and gross unless it is a shared kink, which I don't think it is here)
> 
> Which is NOT healthy, and I do NOT condone. Just in case there was any doubt.


I'm not disagreeing with you, but who would want to be married to such an immature person...man or woman? This is a woman who does not know how to deal with conflict in any kind of healthy manner.


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## samyeagar

FeministInPink said:


> Like I said in a later comment, I think she might be doing it to punish him. (and yes, sleazy and gross unless it is a shared kink, which I don't think it is here)
> 
> Which is NOT healthy, and I do NOT condone. Just in case there was any doubt.


Which is also why I do not think that the normal issues in long term marriages with kids are at play in this. This is not anywhere near normal, and the normal ways of working through those times is going to have little to no effect...chocloate, date nights, and folding the laundry is not going to fix this.


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## oldshirt

NickyT said:


> All I said was that every woman I know that has had more than one child has gone through a phase of her life with her husband where she did not want to bother with sex.
> 
> .


Yes but those women do not completely reject their husbands sexually and do not reject all affection for years on end and they especially do not spank to porn right in front of the husbands but yet not let him touch.

And they especially do not tell their husbands how much other men and women turn them on and say that they aren't interested in sex with him but would be interested in sex with those other people.

Those are critical differences and distinctions and I too must ask if you have read his posts.

Everyone understands someone not feeling very energetic or sexy after having babies and chasing toddlers around all day, and everyone understands the sex life hitting a slump for a period of time after childbirth. 

But this is in a completely different cosmos.


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## Primrose

toblerone said:


> No, from the original post.
> 
> Like, I get that a wife could feel overwhelmed by child and work and all that...
> 
> 
> ... but if she's pushing her husband away _while_ also telling him that she thinks about sex with other guys and girls at work _and_ jills off to porn right next to him in bed and not giving it up to him _while_ telling him she doesn't have that sexual desire towards him anymore...
> 
> that kind of **** absolutely cannot be brushed off as she's feeling stressed or whatever


We also do not know what kind of husband and father the OP is. Is he the kind of man who goes and works his job, only to come home and brush off his family in favor of plopping in front of the tv and cracking open a beer? Does he shrug off her requests to help bathe the kids while she does the dishes? Does he ignore her when she begs him to give the kids some attention? Does he smirk at her when she begs for one on one attention that doesn't involve the children? But then does he turn around and inquire about sex at the end of the day; nevermind his inattentiveness to helping out in the family household during the evening hours? 

Women who deprive their husbands of sex also can be running on an empty love tank themselves and feel no need to give their spouse enjoyment when he cannot be bothered to put forth some effort into his family beyond paying bills. 

So, OP, does this apply to you? If it does, your answer may be glaringly obvious. If it does NOT apply to you, then its worth exploring other options including a potential AP, a divorce, etc.


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## FeministInPink

bandit.45 said:


> I'm not disagreeing with you, but who would want to be married to such an immature person...man or woman? This is a woman who does not know how to deal with conflict in any kind of healthy manner.


I see your point. But I'll also point out (as @Primrose says in the post right before this one), we don't know all the exact circumstances. If she's literally at the end of her rope, she may have tried everything else. She could have communicated with him, and it went in one ear and out the other. She may have tried all the "healthy" solutions, and this is her last-ditch effort to get his attention.

All we know is what is presented by the OP, and he hasn't given us a whole lot to go on.

For all we know, she threw the open marriage thing out there because she wants to shock him into action.


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## SunCMars

As a ghost of a cosmically attuned Martian, still having remnants of being a former Red Dog with superb sense of smell, and hearing, I keep hearing splashing sounds. They seem to be coming from TAM's switch-er-roo board.

And I hear men gasping and coughing. To be honest, it sounds like a bunch of men who are drowning.

So, being the ever-curious mortal that i am, I peeked over the wall in TAM's hanging garden. There i saw a bunch of male posters drowning in this "Wife won't have sex with me."

So, I looked for the lifeguards, the moderators; somebody needs to step in to save the day. But then on the edge of the pool, and on the wall, they all had boobs. The lifeguards and moderators that should help out the men are all female.

The long haired devils are pointing at the men in the pool and laughing their shapely asses off.

They know that the men cannot come up with a solution, they know that the men were fools to tread in such deep murky water, but they did not help them out of their mess.

Men can only say...divorce her, dump her, get counseling, grow balls. What else can they say. That is all they know. They do not have the Magical Velvet Glove. The one that controls the world.
They only have a bat and balls. Those male items are not enough to turn this women around. She remains facing to the South. South of Reason.

Men are from the North Woods. They can cut down trees and go fishing, but cannot do much husbandry.
Men are handicapped by their straight lined solutions. Black and white thinking. Men cannot do grey. Their retinas cannot process that color.

As usual, I am ready to be sent to the dog house, my nose whacked, no supper.

Just Sayin'


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## Evinrude58

I'm a pretty simple man.

If I had a dog that wouldn't hunt, I got a new dog. 

This dog not only won't hunt, but poops on the bedroom floor and smears it on OP's face at night.

Yes, it's time to find a new home for the lousy POS and go get a new one.


"My wife won't have sex with me"............ Well get a new wife. Simple. 

Don't make it complicated OP.

She masturbates to porn, won't have sex with him, and flat out tells him she wants sex with the boys at work--- or girls. Basically, anything or anyone BUT OP.
Good grief. How badly she needs the boot.
Punishing him? Well, ok, then. How long will he accept the punishment? Love? We all know that's nonexistent in this relationship.
Is he doing something wrong in his marriage? YES. Staying married to a lousy human.

I also think she is screwing around. JMO.


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## oldshirt

Primrose said:


> We also do not know what kind of husband and father the OP is. Is he the kind of man who goes and works his job, only to come home and brush off his family in favor of plopping in front of the tv and cracking open a beer? Does he shrug off her requests to help bathe the kids while she does the dishes? Does he ignore her when she begs him to give the kids some attention? Does he smirk at her when she begs for one on one attention that doesn't involve the children? But then does he turn around and inquire about sex at the end of the day; nevermind his inattentiveness to helping out in the family household during the evening hours?
> 
> Women who deprive their husbands of sex also can be running on an empty love tank themselves and feel no need to give their spouse enjoyment when he cannot be bothered to put forth some effort into his family beyond paying bills.
> 
> So, OP, does this apply to you? If it does, your answer may be glaringly obvious. If it does NOT apply to you, then its worth exploring other options including a potential AP, a divorce, etc.


This may have been the case several years ago. Perhaps it even could have been turned around years ago.

And Feminist may be right too that maybe she got so resentful and bitter towards him that now the daggers are coming out and she counter attacking him.

But now????? 

Is there any hope for a successful reconnection and healthy marital love life now??

If it's reached the point that she hasn't let him touch her for a year and she's spanking to porn while fantasizing about coworkers and telling him that she'd enjoy sex with other people - is there really any other solution for him other than manning up, setting her free and finding someone else if he wants a sex life??

Doing dishes, date nights and giving footrubs now is not going to turn this around today. Maybe it could have years ago today, but if it has deteriorated this far, growing some kahoonas, walking away from her and hopefully finding someone else is his most likely chance of having an intimate relationship; even if being a better husband and father years ago would've helped years ago.


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## oldshirt

.... I guess what I'm saying is even if was his fault in the beginning; he's not going to be able to turn it around with good behavior now.


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## TAM2013

Alpha = fux, beta = bux. Always has, always will.


----------



## FeministInPink

oldshirt said:


> This may have been the case several years ago. Perhaps it even could have been turned around years ago.
> 
> And Feminist may be right too that maybe she got so resentful and bitter towards him that now the daggers are coming out and she counter attacking him.
> 
> But now?????
> *
> Is there any hope for a successful reconnection and healthy marital love life now??*
> 
> If it's reached the point that she hasn't let him touch her for a year and she's spanking to porn while fantasizing about coworkers and telling him that she'd enjoy sex with other people - is there really any other solution for him other than manning up, setting her free and finding someone else if he wants a sex life??
> 
> Doing dishes, date nights and giving footrubs now is not going to turn this around today. Maybe it could have years ago today, but if it has deteriorated this far, growing some kahoonas, walking away from her and hopefully finding someone else is his most likely chance of having an intimate relationship; even if being a better husband and father years ago would've helped years ago.


Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. 

Towards the end of my marriage, my (now X) H wouldn't have sex with me, so I was doing a lot of the porn spanking and fantasizing about co-workers... but what I really wanted was to save my marriage. I was doing the former because it was the only thing keeping me sane, and keeping me from going mad with grief. Granted, I didn't do it in front of him, and I didn't tell him I wanted other people. Unfortunately, my XH didn't want to fix anything... actually, fortunately for me, because I was lucky to get out of that marriage and away from him.

If both people want to save the marriage and are willing to do the hard work, I think it can happen. But if she's checked out, then probably not.

The question is this: is her behavior right now a result of her being checked out, or is it her lashing out in pain and trying to soothe her own grief over the state of their marriage? I don't think we have enough information to determine that. And we don't have enough information to determine that because the OP himself doesn't have enough information.


----------



## happy as a clam

FeministInPink said:


> All we know is what is presented by the OP, and he hasn't given us a whole lot to go on.


Yep. And we haven't seen hide nor hair of Dave in several pages of posts. OP, are you coming back?


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## oldshirt

FeministInPink said:


> Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
> 
> Towards the end of my marriage, my (now X) H wouldn't have sex with me, so I was doing a lot of the porn spanking and fantasizing about co-workers... but what I really wanted was to save my marriage. I was doing the former because it was the only thing keeping me sane, and keeping me from going mad with grief. Granted, I didn't do it in front of him, and I didn't tell him I wanted other people. Unfortunately, my XH didn't want to fix anything... actually, fortunately for me, because I was lucky to get out of that marriage and away from him.
> 
> If both people want to save the marriage and are willing to do the hard work, I think it can happen. But if she's checked out, then probably not.
> 
> The question is this: is her behavior right now a result of her being checked out, or is it her lashing out in pain and trying to soothe her own grief over the state of their marriage? I don't think we have enough information to determine that. And we don't have enough information to determine that because the OP himself doesn't have enough information.


I think you are factually correct in what you say above.

I also believe that if two people both want to save a relationship and are willing to each do their share of the heavy lifting it can be done.

However IMHO in order for her to spank to porn in front him and openly yearn for sex with others all while actively rejecting him continuously for a year or more indicates one of two things -

- a profound lack of respect, compassion and attraction for him.

Or

- she is an evil and cruel person. 

Neither of those lends themselves to achieving a healthy and happy relationship.


----------



## anchorwatch

dave90951 said:


> my wife and i are in our early 30s and have been married for about 5 years, we live in the midlands and have 2 young children.
> We used to have an active sex life but since the birth of our youngest daughter *my wife won't have sex with me*. *we last had sex around a year ago and have only had sex maybe 3 or 4 times in last 3 years.* she says she still loves me and wants to be with me but *doesn't have the sexual desire towards me *that she used to have.at first i put it down to post-natal depression but that has now resolved and her feelings towards me remain the same.
> 
> *she recently told me that she sometimes gets the desire to have sex with other men* e.g. From her work and even women too (she sometimes says how *she would like to try a female-female sex*). She says that she hasn't been unfaithful though. I will often try to initiate things but she will push me away and even prefer to watch erotic movies to *pleasure herself instead of me *while wearing earphones watching on her ipad at night while we are both in bed. So i end up just falling asleep instead. I have tried to watch with her but she pushes me away. Last week *she said to me that i can have sex with other women* if i want and that she will still love me.


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## ConanHub

dave90951 said:


> My wife and I are in our early 30s and have been married for about 5 years, we live in the midlands and have 2 young children.
> We used to have an active sex life but since the birth of our youngest daughter my wife won't have sex with me. We last had sex around a year ago and have only had sex maybe 3 or 4 times in last 3 years. She says she still loves me and wants to be with me but doesn't have the sexual desire towards me that she used to have.At first I put it down to post-natal depression but that has now resolved and her feelings towards me remain the same.
> 
> She recently told me that she sometimes gets the desire to have sex with other men e.g. from her work and even women too (she sometimes says how she would like to try a female-female sex). She says that she hasn't been unfaithful though. I will often try to initiate things but she will push me away and even prefer to watch erotic movies to pleasure herself instead of me while wearing earphones watching on her ipad at night while we are both in bed. So I end up just falling asleep instead. I have tried to watch with her but she pushes me away. Last week she said to me that I can have sex with other women if I want and that she will still love me.
> 
> We'll still chat to each other, go out on weekends etc with our children and watch tv together etc.
> 
> What is going on here, I just don't know


She is probably cheating?

Pretty bizarre!

Pretend you are someone else?

Seriously, she knows she is obliterating her marriage, right?

She can't possibly be that stupid or are you that passive?


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## SunCMars

Evinrude58 said:


> I'm a pretty simple man.
> 
> If I had a dog that wouldn't hunt, I got a new dog.
> 
> This dog not only won't hunt, but poops on the bedroom floor and smears it on OP's face at night.
> 
> Yes, it's time to find a new home for the lousy POS and go get a new one.
> 
> 
> "My wife won't have sex with me"............ Well get a new wife. Simple.
> 
> Don't make it complicated OP.
> 
> She masturbates to porn, won't have sex with him, and flat out tells him she wants sex with the boys at work--- or girls. Basically, anything or anyone BUT OP.
> Good grief. How badly *she needs the boot.*
> Punishing him? Well, ok, then. How long will he accept the punishment? Love? We all know that's nonexistent in this relationship.
> Is he doing something wrong in his marriage? YES. Staying married to a lousy human.
> 
> *I also think she is screwing around. * JMO.


Don't hold back!

You tell em' Evinrude! :grin2:

I totally, black and white, agree.


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## ConanHub

Maybe show up in your bedroom with a black leather BDSM outfit on and spank the living hell out of her?


----------



## SunCMars

FeministInPink said:


> Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
> 
> Towards the end of my marriage, my (now X) H wouldn't have sex with me, so *I was doing a lot of the porn spanking and fantasizing about co-workers.*.. but what I really wanted was to save my marriage. I was doing the former because it was the only thing keeping me sane, and keeping me from going mad with grief. Granted, I didn't do it in front of him, and I didn't tell him I wanted other people. Unfortunately, my XH didn't want to fix anything... actually, fortunately for me, because I was lucky to get out of that marriage and away from him.
> 
> If both people want to save the marriage and are willing to do the hard work, I think it can happen. But if she's checked out, then probably not.
> 
> The question is this: is her behavior right now a result of her being checked out, or is it her lashing out in pain and trying to soothe her own grief over the state of their marriage? I don't think we have enough information to determine that. And we don't have enough information to determine that because the OP himself doesn't have enough information.


Yikes!

-censored-


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## NickyT

oldshirt said:


> Yes but those women do not completely reject their husbands sexually and do not reject all affection for years on end and they especially do not spank to porn right in front of the husbands but yet not let him touch.
> 
> And they especially do not tell their husbands how much other men and women turn them on and say that they aren't interested in sex with him but would be interested in sex with those other people.
> 
> Those are critical differences and distinctions and I too must ask if you have read his posts.
> 
> Everyone understands someone not feeling very energetic or sexy after having babies and chasing toddlers around all day, and everyone understands the sex life hitting a slump for a period of time after childbirth.
> 
> But this is in a completely different cosmos.


oh dear...I very clearly said i do NOT agree with what she is doing. It is hurtful and selfish and will destroy their marriage.


----------



## David51

Old saying. “A leopard can’t change it’s spots”. She isn’t going to change and you won’t change your nature “nice guy”. 
So you are married, your wife isn’t having sex with you and she wants an open marriage. 

why does she want to stay with you...... income? Money and security are important to everyone especially women. 

Are you okay with giving her financial support knowing she is having sex with other men and you have to fend for yourself. 

Be advised a man who has his own place, is employed, can meet his financial responsibilities and is SINGLE.....that guy is a lot more attractive than a married man in an open marriage. Plus that single man is in short supply .....

Go get divorced, go find a younger, sexier, beautiful woman and enjoy the rest of your life. 

With any luck your ex will wind up with the kind of guy she deserves ( a jerk that can’t hold down a job, spends all her money, gets drunk and treats her like crap). And that is a real possibility.....
Life is way to short to be Angry, unhappy, when it is all a matter of choice.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Evinrude58

Decent men are in short supply. Obviously decent women are as well...


I suggest OP starts shopping


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## ScrambledEggs

dave90951 said:


> she already suggested we have an open relationship and I have to admit it is very tempting but i'm not sure if I actually did have sex with another woman if she would still be ok with the open marriage idea when the reality of it sets in


Open relationships can (rarely) work, but both people have to go into it with an incredible amount of mental strength and confidence as well as an emotional and physical orbit that keeps them close. Clearly your marriage does not have this and this would just be a way to the slide it into permanent ruin.

This could be a "**** test" (google it). Where she sets a situation where you must assert yourself or fail. it is a thing people do fend of feelings of guilt for being selfish and wanting more. On that subject, you don't seem very assertive--this is a huge turn off for women in general. 

Good Luck.


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## BetrayedDad

dave90951 said:


> she will push me away and even prefer to watch erotic movies to pleasure herself instead of me while wearing earphones watching on her ipad at night while we are both in bed


Wow.... I'm not sure it gets more cruel than this. Talk about selfish. I mean....

The LEAST she could do is unplug the earphones so you can both listen to the ipad.


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## 482

Dave is dead. She killed Dave...........Like a praying mantis


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## Steve1000

482 said:


> Dave is dead. She killed Dave...........Like a praying mantis


No, because they would have needed to have sex first in order for her to bite his head off like a praying mantis.


----------



## 482

Steve1000 said:


> No, because they would have needed to have sex first in order for her to bite his head off like a praying mantis.


:lol::rofl::rofl::rofl::lol:

You are quick sir


----------

