# Mostly venting. But is anyone else pissed off with their settlement agreement but ...



## ctsny (Aug 27, 2020)

it didn't seem like there really wasn't much choice? 

My soon to be ex-husband and I were living together in his mother's cluttered house for about seven years. Then I moved out in spring of 2016 and I finally filed for divorce in late summer of 2019. We each have our own divorce attorneys and finally came up with a settlement agreement. I basically lost 1/2 of my money in savings/checking accounts and part of my rollover IRA. I even lost a small part of my pre-marital 401k because the financial firm that was managing it at the time no longer has the statements for that long ago. I also got stuck paying spousal maintenance and his legal fees. I also have to give my engagement ring back. I tried to lower the spousal maintenance with the value of the ring (which I got appraised) but that did not work out either. I really did not think I should pay spousal maintenance since I have not provided any financial assistance to him after I moved out. but, according to my attorney, since going to court costs the same or more money then the amount of money I'm fighting over I got stuck paying the spousal maintenance. My soon to be ex is extremely greedy and lazy. He has not worked for at least 6 years because he doesn't think he can work since he has heart disease and diabetes type 2. he cries on the phone with his attorney that he just had "open heart" surgery. He's very overweight, has at least one stent, and hasn't lost any weight even when the doctors told him to do so many years ago. He was trying to get everything (my apartment that I inherited from my father, my inheritance, more than 1/2 of my pre-marital 401k, etc.) He thinks he's entitled to having me paying for all of his expenses - no matter what the expense is. while we were still together I even got stuck paying most of his back taxes - even though he accumulated it all before we met.
Is anyone else pissed off and felt that they got financially screwed over but there's really nothing you can do about it because it would just rack up more legal fees that you can't afford? Also when the divorce settlement agreement was reached - my soon to be ex's attorney (who is a ridiculously unreasonable, inpatient and greedy and constantly said she was going to take us to court) attorney tried to rush me into signing the agreement asap and sending money to her and him.
But I took time to review the agreement, had my attorney make corrections (his attorney also made changes and tried to rip me off of more money but I gave the correct amount) and revisions were made and I finally signed and sent some of the money out. I sort of thought about getting a second opinion - just to see if they would agree with the agreement but I don't have the money to pay for it. And if someone is required to sign pretty quickly at the time they came to an agreement then how does anyone have time to seek a second opinion anyway? especially during the holidays. I'm in NY.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How many years are you now going to have to pay him alimony?


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Sounds like your lawyer could/should have been more of a shark to protect against some of that. I guess in once sense you had to know you would be screwed if he hadn't worked for 6 years and you being the main bread winner. STILL sucks though.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Never been through it but just be glad you have the lazy good for nothing mostly out of your life. Take a breath pay the money and find happiness. Lawyers generally suck.


----------



## Galabar01 (Mar 20, 2019)

Isn't this equality?


----------



## ctsny (Aug 27, 2020)

The spousal maintenance is a lump sum. I didn't want to make monthly payments. I wanted him out of my life once and for all. 
I knew back when I was first filing that I was probably going to get screwed financially but wasn't sure how much. It's been frustrating and aggravating seeing the hard numbers on paper (or email) that keeps going up and up that hits you hard. Argh! 
Now it's just a bunch of processes. I sent out the first payments (legal and maintenance). I am waiting to find out how to get the ring to him. The next step, within a couple of months, is to send him the chunk of savings that I don't really have. Then the final step is transferring part of my rollover IRA over to him. That is probably the longest process because the brokerage firm requires the divorce decree first before they are willing to transfer the money. This is to avoid paying a QDRO. So who knows how long it takes for the divorce court to approve the settlement agreement. I can't wait until that piece of sh*t is completely out of my life!!!


----------



## ctsny (Aug 27, 2020)

Galabar01 said:


> Isn't this equality?


 I'm sorry. I don't understand your question.


----------



## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

ctsny said:


> it didn't seem like there really wasn't much choice?
> 
> My soon to be ex-husband and I were living together in his mother's cluttered house for about seven years. Then I moved out in spring of 2016 and I finally filed for divorce in late summer of 2019. We each have our own divorce attorneys and finally came up with a settlement agreement. I basically lost 1/2 of my money in savings/checking accounts and part of my rollover IRA. I even lost a small part of my pre-marital 401k because the financial firm that was managing it at the time no longer has the statements for that long ago. I also got stuck paying spousal maintenance and his legal fees. I also have to give my engagement ring back. I tried to lower the spousal maintenance with the value of the ring (which I got appraised) but that did not work out either. I really did not think I should pay spousal maintenance since I have not provided any financial assistance to him after I moved out. but, according to my attorney, since going to court costs the same or more money then the amount of money I'm fighting over I got stuck paying the spousal maintenance. My soon to be ex is extremely greedy and lazy. He has not worked for at least 6 years because he doesn't think he can work since he has heart disease and diabetes type 2. he cries on the phone with his attorney that he just had "open heart" surgery. He's very overweight, has at least one stent, and hasn't lost any weight even when the doctors told him to do so many years ago. He was trying to get everything (my apartment that I inherited from my father, my inheritance, more than 1/2 of my pre-marital 401k, etc.) He thinks he's entitled to having me paying for all of his expenses - no matter what the expense is. while we were still together I even got stuck paying most of his back taxes - even though he accumulated it all before we met.
> Is anyone else pissed off and felt that they got financially screwed over but there's really nothing you can do about it because it would just rack up more legal fees that you can't afford? Also when the divorce settlement agreement was reached - my soon to be ex's attorney (who is a ridiculously unreasonable, inpatient and greedy and constantly said she was going to take us to court) attorney tried to rush me into signing the agreement asap and sending money to her and him.
> But I took time to review the agreement, had my attorney make corrections (his attorney also made changes and tried to rip me off of more money but I gave the correct amount) and revisions were made and I finally signed and sent some of the money out. I sort of thought about getting a second opinion - just to see if they would agree with the agreement but I don't have the money to pay for it. And if someone is required to sign pretty quickly at the time they came to an agreement then how does anyone have time to seek a second opinion anyway? especially during the holidays. I'm in NY.



Actually, within the limitations of what you posted, your experience doesn't seem particularly different than the stereotypical divorcing man with a nonworking wife/wife who earns significantly less. It may feel unfair to you, and maybe it is, but if you look at the experiences of men in this kind of situation, your experience is not rare. Soon-to-be ex trying to grab what you feel is a disproportionate share of assets, or trying to saddle you with expenses? Welcome to the reality for most men who are divorcing. 

That's what @Galabar01 meant when he said, "Isn't this equality?". He meant you're getting the same experience men would typically get.

Frankly, I don't think the current alimony/divorce system is very just or logical. Although there are exceptions from time to time (@EleGirl has posted hers in the past), the fact remains that the system has historically been biased against men, particularly if they are the higher earner, which in the past has been the norm. It is my hope that as more women become the larger earners, then experiences of women such as yourself will expose the injustices and lead to reform of the system. It's sad to say that it has to affect women before some action is done, but that's just the reality of the situation. 

With this in mind, OP, you may wish to approach your problem by reviewing the experience of some of the men who have shared their stories. To be honest, if you were living in his mother's cluttered house, and if the value of the engagement ring would to make a significant dent in spousal maintenance, as you post, then I would assume that we're not talking about huge sums of money here. It may be huge to you if you're pressed for finances, but really $10,000 (for example) more or less is small compared to most divorces. In such a case, if you review the stories of men in your situation, you would find that most would feel that the legal costs could well outweigh the benefits gained, or at least be close enough that it's not worth it to pursue it.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ctsny said:


> I'm sorry. I don't understand your question.


He's talking about that it's usually men who end up in the situation you are in.


----------



## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Sounds like you did not have a good lawyer.


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Divorce law is a big money-making industry.

Having said that


> according to my attorney, since going to court costs the same or more money then the amount of money I'm fighting over I got stuck paying the spousal maintenance


that sounds like decent advice


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

You _chose_ to stay in a marriage with a man who wasn't working (just as men choose to stay in marriages with women who aren't working). There is usually going to be spousal support paid in these situations.


----------



## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

Livvie said:


> You _chose_ to stay in a marriage with a man who wasn't working (just as men choose to stay in marriages with women who aren't working). There is usually going to be spousal support paid in these situations.


I think the law should change. Unless you are the one who asked the partner not to work, you shouldn’t be obligated to pay alimony for you partner after divorce. Like my brother is the only one working. He is having a hard time saving money only with his paycheck. He is giving her choices, pushing her to work, to do better for herself but she gets offended by it. She is well educated and healthy so no reason for her not to work. She rather stays home with the kids. She doesn’t drive so he is in charge of driving kids and her to school, hospital, shopping, etc. There is public transportation but most of the times he is providing trasportation for them. It’s not fair if they divorce(they are good together so I don’t see that happening) he gets to pay alimony for her since it was her choice to stay home.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

marcy* said:


> I think the law should change. Unless you are the one who asked the partner not to work, you shouldn’t be obligated to pay alimony for you partner after divorce. Like my brother is the only one working. He is having a hard time saving money only with his paycheck. He is giving her choices, pushing her to work, to do better for herself but she gets offended by it. She is well educated and healthy so no reason for her not to work. She rather stays home with the kids. She doesn’t drive so he is in charge of driving kids and her to school, hospital, shopping, etc. There is public transportation but most of the times he is providing trasportation for them. It’s not fair if they divorce(they are good together so I don’t see that happening) he gets to pay alimony for her since it was her choice to stay home.


Well, I disagree. Are you familiar with the courts? Have you ever seen a divorce case play out from start to finish, and have you ever spent just one whole day shadowing a family court judge? You are getting into the realm of "impossible to prove". What kind of evidence and how much evidence will the court need for it to be proven a spouse stayed home against the other's wishes? What if the spouse refutes the "evidence", what is their burden of proof to the court? It isn't a murder trial. NO ONE has time to litigate how and why a spouse didn't work for a long time period.

At a certain point you need to take responsibility for the spouse and marital situation you chose, _choosing to stay with a non employed spouse for a great number of years_.

As to your brother, I can't imagine why on Earth he feels it's a good marriage, het refusing to work and money is tight, and he has to drive her ass around wherever she goes? But--- he's choosing that.


----------



## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

Livvie said:


> Well, I disagree. Are you familiar with the courts? Have you ever seen a divorce case play out from start to finish, and have you ever spent just one whole day shadowing a family court judge? You are getting into the realm of "impossible to prove". What kind of evidence and how much evidence will the court need for it to be proven a spouse stayed home against the other's wishes? What if the spouse refutes the "evidence", what is their burden of proof to the court? It isn't a murder trial. NO ONE has time to litigate how and why a spouse didn't work for a long time period.
> 
> At a certain point you need to take responsibility for the spouse and marital situation you chose, _choosing to stay with a non employed spouse for a great number of years_.
> 
> As to your brother, I can't imagine why on Earth he feels it's a good marriage, het refusing to work and money is tight, and he has to drive her ass around wherever she goes? But--- he's choosing that.


I
What I am saying is the law should change, I know right now is not possible, but many things have been impossible until they became possible. 
You saying the the working partner chose to stay with a non working partner, but same think for the other partner. They can leave too, no one is forcing them to stay.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

marcy* said:


> I
> What I am saying is the law should change, I know right now is not possible, but many things have been impossible until they became possible.
> You saying the the working partner chose to stay with a non working partner, but same think for the other partner. They can leave too, no one is forcing them to stay.


? How does that make sense? 

You proposed that a spouse should not have to pay spousal support to a non working spouse if the working spouse wasn't on board with the decision for the other not to work. I'm telling you, that will never happen, because it's impossible to prove and the court will NEVER have time to work through litigating something like that. That is why there is no fault divorce. No one has time to wade through the muck of he said she said and who is in the wrong.

It's nonsensical what you wrote about how no one is forcing the non working spouse to stay. Umm right. What does that have to do with anything?


----------



## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

Livvie said:


> ? How does that make sense?
> 
> You proposed that a spouse should not have to pay spousal support to a non working spouse if the working spouse wasn't on board with the decision for the other not to work. I'm telling you, that will never happen, because it's impossible to prove and the court will NEVER have time to work through litigating something like that. That is why there is no fault divorce. No one has time to wade through the muck of he said she said and who is in the wrong.
> 
> It's nonsensical what you wrote about how no one is forcing the non working spouse to stay. Umm right. What does that have to do with anything?


You can prove if you want, same way you prove verbal abuse. Anyway, I see we don’t agree, and it’s fine.


----------



## Thisnotthat (Oct 28, 2020)

CTSNY sorry about the outcome of your divorce. I gather you were posting here just to vent a little bit, and you certainly have earned that. One important take away (whether your male or female) is 1) who you choose to be in a relationship with is very important, and 2) the behaviors you tolerate in a relationship are really important. Some of us learn that the hard way, but I bet those are things you'll never take for granted again. Hoping the ex manages to choke on the ring!


----------



## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Galabar01 said:


> Isn't this equality?


She wasn't addressing equality. 

This is a marriage forum and divorce is a topic discussed. 

If you don't have anything useful to write, I think it's best to ignore the thread and move on. 

If the OP can't vent or receive advice about her situation then men should not vent or ask for advice either. That's fair to both genders, don't you think?

These kind of unwise responses make me mad!


----------



## Ms. Hawaii (Mar 28, 2018)

marcy* said:


> You can prove if you want, same way you prove verbal abuse. Anyway, I see we don’t agree, and it’s fine.


I don’t think you understand divorce laws. 

You would prove this under which standard of proof? And how would you go about it? What kind of evidence would be needed to prove this? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

Ms. Hawaii said:


> I don’t think you understand divorce laws.
> 
> You would prove this under which standard of proof? And how would you go about it? What kind of evidence would be needed to prove this?
> 
> ...


Again, It’s a suggestion and not impossible. How can you prove this? Written note and signed by both partners, or by recording. .Same way you sign prenuptial agreement.


----------



## Trident (May 23, 2018)

marcy* said:


> You can prove if you want, same way you prove verbal abuse. Anyway, I see we don’t agree, and it’s fine.


No you cannot prove something just because you want to. How the heck is the breadwinner in a divorce going to prove to the judge that they preferred their deadbeat, stay at home lazy partner to work, yet that partner refused.

Sorry but I completely agree with the excellent advice provided by @Livvie that you unfortunately choose to ignore.

The courts do what they can to deal with the situation presented to them by the divorcing parties, corruption, nepotism, bias and incompetence not withstanding.

If one spouse worked most of the marriage and the other didn't, then the breadwinner is legally obligated to support the other party for some period of time, sometimes until death. That law isn't going to change anytime soon, the onus is on the people who are entering a lifelong legal obligation to do their homework and possibly reconsider when entering into a union with someone that has undesirable qualities such as laziness.


----------



## marcy* (Feb 27, 2010)

trident said:


> No you cannot prove something just because you want to. How the heck is the breadwinner in a divorce going to prove to the judge that they preferred their deadbeat, stay at home lazy partner to work, yet that partner refused.
> 
> Sorry but I completely agree with the excellent advice provided by @Livvie that you unfortunately choose to ignore.
> 
> ...


I don’t know why is hard for you to understand. How can he prove? Make his lazy partner to sign the agreement that the other partner doesn’t have to pay alimony for his/-her spouse since they are staying home by choice not because the other partner made them stay, or because they can’t work. Also if a partner asked the other partner to stay home he should agree with paying the alimony if they divorce. I am saying ftom now on, not what has already passed. Seriously I am trying to help men here.😬


----------



## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

marcy* said:


> I don’t know why is hard for you to understand. How can he prove? Make his lazy partner to sign the agreement that the other partner doesn’t have to pay alimony for his/-her spouse since they are staying home by choice not because the other partner made them stay, or because they can’t work. Also if a partner asked the other partner to stay home he should agree with paying the alimony if they divorce. I am saying ftom now on, not what has already passed. Seriously I am trying to help men here.😬


You can't force your partner to sign a pre or post nup. And if it's a post nup, well, the ships already sailed. Of course the longer one waits to divorce the longer they will have to pay alimony. Judges can also throw out pre or post nups if it's unfair. One of those reasons would be signed under duress, or you know, if you "make" then do it.

I could end up paying 6 figures a year between alimony and child support, if I get divorced. My wife doesn't even want alimony but regardless of what our postnup says she would get it anyway. What one or both spouses want doesn't always matter. Some couples can waive alimony but it really depends on the situation and income gap. And like said below, no lawyer would advise their client to walk away empty handed.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@ctsny

When I divorced my exH it was kind of like this. We owned two properties (a split level house with a large, suburban yard and a 4000 sq ft house with an acre and a pool), both had new cars, owned a million dollar business together, and had typical bank accounts and investments. ExH thought of it all as “his” that he graciously “shared” with me and not that I co-owned it with him. I wasn’t a SAHM but I did the child care and raising, then worked while the kids were in school and in bed.

Anyway when it came time to divorce, I weighed “the fight it would take to get my equal half” against the peace I would gain just getting out, disentangling, and getting on with my own life. As long as we fought or he had to pay me something, he had control and would actively not cooperate just to screw me. So I purposefully chose the smaller home and one car, and asked the judge to order CS that was garnished. The rest I walked away from to start my own life. I sold the house and car...got my own townhouse and a car in my name that fit me and the kids, and he couldn’t make any threat anymore—WE WERE DONE!

In my opinion it was worth it. I’m able-bodied, ambitious, have a solid work ethic and don’t live beyond my means. I built my own self back and he can never it. And we were disentangled! I was in peace and able to live my own life my way. Did we split 50/50? Nope. Was it fair? Nope. Am I happy? Yep! ☺


----------



## Trident (May 23, 2018)

ctsny said:


> I basically lost 1/2 of my money in savings/checking accounts and part of my rollover IRA. I even lost a small part of my pre-marital 401k because the financial firm that was managing it at the time no longer has the statements for that long ago. I also got stuck paying spousal maintenance and his legal fees. I also have to give my engagement ring back. I really did not think I should pay spousal maintenance since I have not provided any financial assistance to him after I moved out. but, according to my attorney, since going to court costs the same or more money then the amount of money I'm fighting over I got stuck paying the spousal maintenance. My soon to be ex is extremely greedy and lazy. while we were still together I even got stuck paying most of his back taxes - even though he accumulated it all before we met.
> my soon to be ex's attorney.. tried to rush me into signing the agreement asap and sending money to her and him.


I'm in NY too, divorced about 10+ years. From the information you provided, you didn't get screwed at all. The relevant parts of your post are quoted above and I'll reply to each on in turn.

You didn't lose 1/2 of YOUR money, you lost 1/2 of what was determined to be joint marital assets and/or you agreed to settle because it wasn't worth the additional legal fees and uncertain outcome. A court may very well have given you a more favorable settlement but you chose not to go that route.

The financial firm lost the statements so you had to relinquish part of the premarital portion of your 401k. How is that not your fault? You gotta hold onto this stuff. Everything is digital nowadays, keep in on your computer and back it up. Earlier "pre-digital" statements should be scanned in and saved as well.

Yes, the courts strive for equality and therefore in most jurisdictions nowadays direct that spousal support and legal fees be paid by the "monied" spouse. Otherwise it's unfair to the party that cannot afford an attorney and cannot afford to live on their own. Consider yourself lucky that you were not ordered to pay retroactive support back to the date of separation.

You had to return your engagement ring?? It's my understanding that you settled. Therefore you agreed to giving him the ring as part of settlement. No way a NY court would have ordered this, the ring was your separate non-marital property. Again, your choice to settle rather than go the litigated route. You could have taken it further along in the courts even if it did not go to trial (most don't). Judges often will give indications as to how they will rule on certain issues and that gives the attorneys and the parties direction on how to settle, the ring being a good example of an expensive asset that would have gone in your favor.

You "got stuck paying most of his back taxes" when you were together. This was clearly before the divorce, so it's a choice you made on your own. Legally If the taxes accumulated when you were together, the debt is joint marital, that's how the law works and that's how it should be. Marriage is a legally binding contract. Money earned and debt obtained during the marriage is shared by both parties.

He's extremely lazy and greedy. You married the guy, no one forced you.

Sorry but you need to own most of this and stop blaming the system and your ex and his attorney.

P.S. Of course his attorney tried to rush you into signing an unfair agreement, it's all part of the game. Not sure why this surprises you.

It was not a wise move paying the spousal support in a lump sum and your attorney should have advised you of this. If you want the reasons I'll explain why but that could come back to bite you and as I said it should have at least been discussed.


----------



## Ms. Hawaii (Mar 28, 2018)

marcy* said:


> Again, It’s a suggestion and not impossible. How can you prove this? Written note and signed by both partners, or by recording. .Same way you sign prenuptial agreement.


In most jurisdictions, for a prenup to be valid, each party has to consult an attorney. 

It looks like you’re arguing for a type of postnuptial contract. 

You really think an attorney would advise their client to sign an agreement stating that they’re not going to ask for alimony? They’re basically going to walk away with nothing?


I don’t mean to be rude You’re little bit naive. 

Btw, the issue isn’t that it’s impossible. You don’t understand contract laws. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Trident (May 23, 2018)

marcy* said:


> I don’t know why is hard for you to understand. How can he prove? Make his lazy partner to sign the agreement that the other partner doesn’t have to pay alimony for his/-her spouse since they are staying home by choice not because the other partner made them stay, or because they can’t work. Also if a partner asked the other partner to stay home he should agree with paying the alimony if they divorce. I am saying ftom now on, not what has already passed. Seriously I am trying to help men here.😬


Be realistic. A lazy greedy non-working partner isn't going to just say "Sure grab me a pen, I'd be happy to sign an agreement that you don't have to pay me money if we divorce since I'm staying home by choice".

You keep saying "The law should be changed" and the other partner "should agree".

Well @marcy* the laws are what they are right now and her lazy husband isn't going to do what you think he should do.

You are doing a lot of wishful thinking which is not a viable strategy when going through a divorce.


----------



## ctsny (Aug 27, 2020)

In the beginning he was working. he went from one job to another. then he lost or quit that job and said there isn't any jobs out there. He was able to work while we were married and I just happen to make more. I'm not surprised that I had to pay him part of the savings/checking and IRA. I'm surprised I had to pay maintenance since I haven't been supporting him at all for over 4 1/2 years. It's a 'I think he can work and he thinks he can't work" battle and he won. I have a lot of pre-existing health conditions from birth that required a lot more invasive surgeries then he has but did not carry any weight in my case but I am still working full time and was supporting him back early 2016 and prior. I know someone else who got divorced in NY and he was the breadwinner but it was clear that his ex-wife can work but chose not to. So he did not have to pay alimony to her. It's just difficult to prove that someone can or can not work. He applied for disability and got denied. then he thought he appealed and his then attorney for that did not file the appeal. so he has no income. 

I did not tell him not to work. but he thinks there's either no jobs out there and then he decided he can't work. and since he doesn't take care of himself his health got a little bit worse. I think he can still work though. It was a toss of going to court, racking up more fees and being more broke or settling so that I can move on sooner. I pretty much already mentioned that in my initial post.
I'm not really blaming the system since we pretty much avoided the court system. I'm not going to go into all the details of why I think his attorney is crazy. I'm just glad that hopefully the divorce will be done soon.


----------



## Trident (May 23, 2018)

ctsny said:


> I know someone else who got divorced in NY and he was the breadwinner but it was clear that his ex-wife can work but chose not to. So he did not have to pay alimony to her


Depends on the judge. My exwife was a nurse and simply stopped working at the advice of her attorney and she got spousal maintenance with no consideration for her ability to be employed. The judge we had was known to be soft on women. Other judges in the same courthouse would have likely ruled quite differently.

Well if you don't have the money to fight a litigated case sometimes you gotta take the loss. You said he wasn't like this when you first married- it seems like this happens quite often- a few years or many years after the vows are exchanged the other person turns into a lunatic and the person who wants out never saw it coming. Still baffles me when I see people getting divorced and then jumping into subsequent marriages. They think "this time" it will be different. Some people never learn.


----------



## ctsny (Aug 27, 2020)

@trident . . . Wow! that sucks that your ex-wife got alimony just from quitting her job and clearly able to work! I'm sorry! I really don't think that was right at all! I NEVER want to get married again! I don't get how people get married for a 2nd or more times.


----------



## Trident (May 23, 2018)

And we went all the way to trial which culminated in the judge strongly advising the parties to settle on the terms he outlined. I'm still satisfied with the settlement agreement, it was fairly close to what I had offered her 3 years earlier, although I was out over $100k in legal fees and had to pay part of hers. Here we are over 10 years later and as I understand it she's broke and I am with someone new and made back all the money I lost in the divorce, and then some.


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I can't believe there wasn't some way of proving that old money was yours. I don't think your attorney did his job there. I mean, there has to be a paper trail of it somewhere, either an employer of banking institution or old records of your own. I mean, can they prove, he DID contribute to it? Does he have checks or bank statements making payments to it. Nonsense. But you did the right thing getting it over with. 

Getting paid alimony was never meant to reward those who won't work. Like Marcy, I believe, said above, it's more when the couple agreed one of them wouldn't work and would stay and take care of the house and kids or whatever. There is NO pattern of that, so you did get screwed. Probably not worth paying a new attorney over though. Hope you still have earning capacity. You'll make it up without an out of work husband draining your paycheck.


----------



## ctsny (Aug 27, 2020)

@trident. . . So now I know why you were so harsh responding to my post. yeah I just didn't use the correct terminology. I very well knew that assets accumulated during the marriage is going to be split up. also now I know why you were arguing back and forth with Marcy*. (if I read the posts correctly I think she thinks the law _should_ change but knows it's extremely rare that it will). I don't think you should have paid alimony either and wants the law to change so that that scenario doesn't happen again.



trident said:


> It was not a wise move paying the spousal support in a lump sum and your attorney should have advised you of this. If you want the reasons I'll explain why but that could come back to bite you and as I said it should have at least been discussed.


Why do you think a lump sum for maintenance was a bad choice? Do you really think it will come back and bite me? The settlement agreement is final. it's not modifiable. I almost, I think, early in the negotiations, was going to give part of a lump sum and then pay the rest of it monthly. But it eventually switch to one lump sum. It seems like paying an ex off is pretty common.


----------



## Trident (May 23, 2018)

I'm extremely well versed on the divorce laws in NY having been through a highly contested divorce with numerous court appearance before and after the divorce was final. I often post on a men's divorce forum and have made a sort of second hobby of researching case law and reading about new cases and decisions especially in NY. I'm also prepared if my exwife tries to take me back to court for support even though our settlement is supposedly nonmodifiable and my last payment was many years ago. Even though it's rare it happens. There are my qualifications now let me get into why paying support in a lump sum is a bad idea:

Even though your settlement is supposedly iron clan and nonmodifiable, in NY a party can claim unexpected change of circumstances or worse yet "extreme hardship" and bring the other party back to court for either a reduction in support that they are paying, or an increase in support they are receiving (amount or duration) or in your case, can even start support when it's expired or paid in full or even if it was never ordered in the first place. In your case you've got a greedy, lazy exhusband who has already tried to make a case for disability but was unsuccessful. In the future, should he successfully become disabled from a legal standpoint that's an unexpected and extreme hardship that just may give him grounds to revisit spousal support. The other half of the equation is that a court could surmise (correctly) that if you had the money back then to make a lump sum payment you can afford to pay more.

here's some relevant case law (you can also search on other cases cited within the article).






Sass v. Sass, 276 AD 2d 42 - NY: Appellate Div., 2nd Dept. 2000 - Google Scholar







scholar.google.com


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

.... adding to the previous discussion... and the state would rather an ex spouse help support someone they enabled not working for a huge time period during a marriage, rather than the taxpayers: If spousal support is received by someone, it lessens the potential welfare a person will have to collect.


----------



## Trident (May 23, 2018)

Adding to the post above, often that's the motivation behind going after the former support payer- to keep the recipient off of the welfare roles and keep the burden on the former spouse. Sometimes NY State Social services that files the motion against the former spouse on behalf of the "disabled" party.


----------



## ctsny (Aug 27, 2020)

OOHHH SH*T!!!! 
What happens if the person who paid spousal support really does not have the money to support the ex-spouse and is already struggling on his/her own? It sounds like the court doesn't really care, right? 
I actually thought that if my ex does get disability benefits that I would pay less because he finally has his own income - even if it's through the government. But now I see that may not be the case.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

ctsny said:


> OOHHH SH*T!!!!
> What happens if the person who paid spousal support really does not have the money to support the ex-spouse and is already struggling on his/her own? It sounds like the court doesn't really care, right?
> I actually thought that if my ex does get disability benefits that I would pay less because he finally has his own income - even if it's through the government. But now I see that may not be the case.


Yes you could pay less if he's getting disability.

And, oftentimes the court will impute full time minimum wage even if someone isn't working, so the earner pays less spousal support. The court doesn't think people who can work should just sit on their ass and collect spousal.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

ctsny said:


> OOHHH SH*T!!!!
> What happens if the person who paid spousal support really does not have the money to support the ex-spouse and is already struggling on his/her own? It sounds like the court doesn't really care, right?
> I actually thought that if my ex does get disability benefits that I would pay less because he finally has his own income - even if it's through the government. But now I see that may not be the case.


I thought you already paid a lump sum?


----------



## Trident (May 23, 2018)

If he applies for disability benefits that can adversely affect you as stated earlier. I'm wondering as well how you came up with the money to pay him lump sum support since you're struggling so much. Maybe you should have used the money for legal fees and litigated your divorce Most of what we're posting is after the fact all you can do is hope for the best at this point.


----------



## ctsny (Aug 27, 2020)

Livvie said:


> I thought you already paid a lump sum?


I already sent a check for spousal maintenance and legal fees and will pay what was 1/2 of my accounts in early 2021.
I meant years later ... if I get dragged back into court to pay spousal support again if he gets disability benefits. This is my reaction to Trident saying that he is already prepared if his ex tries get spousal support from him again.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

What was the length of your marriage? Are there any kids involved? In my state, any spousal support isn't longer than half the length of the marriage and only granted where there is a big disparity in incomes.


----------



## ctsny (Aug 27, 2020)

about 11 years. Then I filed for divorce. The divorce process is about 1 1/2 years. so when they came up with the spousal maintenance - it would be for 17 months. No kids.


----------



## Trident (May 23, 2018)

You were married for 11 years and are paying spousal support based on 17 months total duration? You got a great deal right there.

If you research NY divorce spousal support formulas and plug in the numbers you'll see you could easily have been paying closer to 5 years worth of spousal maintenance.

Don't lose too much sleep over the whole disability/extreme hardship/support modification thing. First of all there's nothing you can do about it at this point and secondly it doesn't happen very often.


----------



## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

ctsny said:


> I'm surprised I had to pay maintenance since I haven't been supporting him at all for over 4 1/2 years.


Doesn't matter. You were still married those 4.5 years and owe him support.



ctsny said:


> I did not tell him not to work. but he thinks there's either no jobs out there and then he decided he can't work.


And? You stayed married to him and accepted the liability of remaining legally married to a bum.



ctsny said:


> I think his attorney is crazy.


Eh, not really. The truth is that you should have filed for divorce far earlier than you did. Had you divorced him sooner he would have been entitled to either less or nothing at all.

And that is the big take-a-way here, boys n girls. Know your states laws before you marry or learn them if you're already married. Find out when alimony kicks in, length of time per year married, etc. Leave before you end up financially responsible. 

And, for the love of God, stop telling people to stay til the kids are 18. In many states, being married that long means lifetime alimony.


----------



## Trident (May 23, 2018)

MJJEAN said:


> In many states, being married that long means lifetime alimony.


As of 2018, the states that may still grant permanent alimony are New Jersey, Connecticut, Vermont, North Carolina, West Virginia, Florida, and Oregon.


----------



## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

There might be a case for reopening your case especially if you suspect that your lawyer was incompetent in handling your affairs. But you must also beware that this could backfire and end up with an even worse outcome. See if you can get advice from a really good lawyer (a shark, no less) on this.


----------



## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Trident said:


> As of 2018, the states that may still grant permanent alimony are New Jersey, Connecticut, Vermont, North Carolina, West Virginia, Florida, and Oregon.


Technically, yes. However, states like mine still allow it in long term marriages where the other spouse is not likely to be able to support themselves due to age, disability, etc. Currently, 19 years and 1 day married entitles a SAH alimony until they die or remarry here.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

manfromlamancha said:


> There might be a case for reopening your case especially if you suspect that your lawyer was incompetent in handling your affairs. But you must also beware that this could backfire and end up with an even worse outcome. See if you can get advice from a really good lawyer (a shark, no less) on this.


It's 17 months of spousal support. That's not much and doesn't sound incompetent.


----------



## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

OP-- with a lump sum alimony, you have to watch out for the alimony recapture rule. 
Here's information from a NY law firm website: 

Alimony Recapture

Basically the concept is that Alimony is tax deductible to the person paying the alimony, and is considered income to the recipient. However, there is no tax deduction on a division of marital property, because it is considered dividing assets (which presumably have been taxed already). 

If you front-load the alimony (i.e., the amount paid drops significantly in the first 3 years), then the IRS will say that the high up-front alimony during the initial period was actually a property division masquerading as alimony for purposes of getting a tax deduction. So, the IRS will retroactively "disallow" the deductions given for the high-paying period, and make the payor refund those excess deductions to the IRS---hence, it is "recapturing" the tax. You need to be careful not to fall into this trap.

I'd be concerned that a big up-front payment would fall into this category. But any alimony that ends in 17 months, as yours does, would be scrutinized by the IRS by claiming it is a disguised division of marital assets.


----------



## ctsny (Aug 27, 2020)

Wolfman1968 said:


> OP-- with a lump sum alimony, you have to watch out for the alimony recapture rule.
> Here's information from a NY law firm website:
> 
> Alimony Recapture
> ...


I remember reading, and just looked it up again, that the amount of money I'm paying to my ex is not tax deductible. So I guess that means that I won't fall into the 'recapture' category.


----------

