# Want to throw in the towel and disappear



## aine

I am so confused and fed up. My husband and I were talking at the weekend. We never dealt with his cheating many years ago, I was lost, had just given birth to my second kid and wanted the marriage to survive so I also rug swept. Now because of recent developments (I think he might have been unfaithful a few years ago as things were pretty bad between us – no proof and just denials, my gut tells me otherwise) we have been trying to work on us so I am trying to get closure on the cheating from many years ago. 
He doesn’t want to go there so I was really angry. He said my way of dealing with things is confrontation, because of his upbringing it is to leave things and just let it be and go on as if nothing is wrong, WTF. That has always been the way in his family too, even in major crisis, keep a stiff upper lip and move on, don’t discuss or anything. They are Asian.
I am now thinking that it is not worthwhile trying to work on anything. Now I know that digging up stuff is not good but if it is going to help me deal with how little I trust him then it has to be dealt with. It’s as if he has withdrawn all of a sudden. I know that could be due to no sex for 2 weeks (I have a bad UTI) and sex is the furthest thing from my mind. He also said based on how I have been acting, he is not too sure whether I will be around or not in the future. I have threatened to leave after my second child moves to college. He says he wants to be a better man, but I hear lots of talk, little action. 
So it looks like when I show any sign of exerting independence and a search for transparency and honesty I get this BS. I hate him right now. If a man genuinely loved his wife and gave a s*** about making things right then he would open up. That’s how I feel. I am beginning to think that my marriage is dead and unless I just accept everything and move on or out of the marriage nothing will change. My IC says communication has broken down completely and I guess that is the problem, he has never been good at being open. She has suggested some MCs but to be honest right now I think it will be a waste of time just going around in circles. I have read the book His Needs/Her Needs (he has not and will not). We also discussed the fact that he is a taker and I am a giver, but frankly I am really fed up giving. if I was financially independent I think I would just leave, it would be easier. Bear with me I am venting!


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## SecondTime'Round

He doesn't sound like someone capable of having a meaningful relationship/emotional connection. He probably doesn't want to rehash the affair because he's afraid you will not be able to get past it and will leave him. He will have to understand that you may very well leave him if he doesn't, so either way there's that possibility on the table. 

The fact that he won't even read the book isn't good either. It clearly shows that he has no interest in working together on your relationship and wants you to become just like him and his family.


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## Lostinthought61

You married a very selfish man whose needs are apparently more important then the needs of his family let alone you. I'm not sure you can through some one who refuses to participate in working on regaining your trust and love. I am sorry you are going through this difficult time.


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## aine

I agree, he has been a very selfish man and much of that is to do with his culture and upbringing. He was the oldest and therefore the sun shone out of his b**! I have no such illusions and let him know but he can be incredibly sensitive when it comes to his emotions or any 'attack' (that is the way he sees it) on him. In short he lacks empathy I think. There is little point in hammering someone over the head to get them to see my point of view I guess so I'll continue this way till I can get out. 
He has noticed I am much quieter now, I guess he doesn't realise that is because I am slowly beginning to check out. I can be nice, friendly, everything but that is it. 

Today he sent me a message saying he felt terrible because he reprimanded one of his staff over work issues, but the staff had brought him a gift from overseas and handed it to him right afterwards (nice one!). For the first time in my life I was thinking, well, that is your problem though I did reply. Why should I help him with his 'emotional' stuff when he doesn't really give a toss about me or mine. 

I am much stronger than I was a last year, I am beginning to not care. I did much grieving a few years ago when the realisation hit me that I wasn't as important to him as he was to me. that was soul destroying but you live and learn.


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## Mr.Fisty

My take is that he does not like to face a mirror and know the flawed person he is. Also, not dealing with issues is the way his family operated, and it is his behavior to do the same.

The issue with that behavior is that not working on it, will have a high probability of the same actions reoccurring. He is technically only answering to himself for his behavior.

You need to find out how motivated he is to fix the damage he has done. If he is capable of change to make you feel more secure or not.

His actions have caused the damage and if divorce is the consequence of that action, then so let it be. You will find out how self-centered he is if he will choose to work with you or not.


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## gouge_away

Xenote said:


> You married a very selfish man whose *needs* are apparently more important then the needs of his family let alone you. I'm not sure you can through some one who refuses to participate in working on regaining your trust and love. I am sorry you are going through this difficult time.


*Wants*

The way you described your spouse and how he deals with issues resonates with what I was going through the last year and a half.

I chose to move on and have had no second thoughts. I guess if she showed after I served her that she wanted to change things might be different, but that wasn't the case, once I filed it was really clear that she didn't want a marriage.


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## Cecezakat

aine said:


> I have no such illusions and let him know but he can be incredibly sensitive when it comes to his emotions or any 'attack' (that is the way he sees it) on him.


If he feels attacked by you that would cause him to shut down and not want to reveal his feelings to you. You want him to open up about his past affair for your benefit, but he clearly doesn't feel safe expressing vulnerability with you. It doesn't sound like he lacks empathy at all (he was upset about his coworker). Have you considered that your attacks, even if you don't think he should be so sensitive, have made him not feel safe revealing vulnerable feelings to you? How can you say in one sentence that he is too sensitive with his emotions and then say he has no empathy? 

If you are being quiet anyway and ready to step out, why not try a different approach? Try to stop commenting on or criticizing his thoughts or opinions. Stop attacking him, go vent your angry feelings to someone else (a friend, not family) and at home be a good, non-judgmental listener. 

He obviously was testing the waters with you by sharing his feelings with you about how upset he was for reprimanding a coworker. If you show him signs that you will hear his vulnerable side without any attacks, he will increase what he is willing to share with you. Talking about a past affair is something very difficult to do with someone you feel has attacked you in the past. Of course the affair makes you upset and he has every reason to think it would lead to him being attacked and hurt because of your own hurt on the issue. 

It doesn't matter if you think he is too sensitive about his emotions and that he has no right to feel attacked. He has the right to feel how he feels and be safe expressing his feelings to you. You can't on the one hand, crush him for being "too sensitive" and then complain about how he doesn't want to be vulnerable in front of you.


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## gouge_away

Cecezakat said:


> It doesn't sound like he lacks empathy at all (he was upset about his coworker).


The reprimand may have been warranted and obliged, Him feeling resentment after receiving a gift is hardly empathetic.

Either way, he shows contempt towards his marriage by not validating her much warranted need for accountability and transparency. There is no empathy in contempt.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Cecezakat said:


> Talking about a past affair is something very difficult to do with someone you feel has attacked you in the past. Of course the affair makes you upset and he has every reason to think it would lead to him being attacked and hurt because of your own hurt on the issue.


I agree with everything else you said, except for the above.
In what situation would talking about a past affair not be something very difficult to do? Please don't put the blame on her for being upset due to her "own hurt on the issue". Her husband had an affair, it was rug-swept, she is still upset over it. He needs to open up and confront the anger and hurt head-on, acknowledge feelings of mistrust and find a way to overcome it. That doesn't happen if we act nice-nice and pretend everything is OK.


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## Cecezakat

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I agree with everything else you said, except for the above.
> In what situation would talking about a past affair not be something very difficult to do? Please don't put the blame on her for being upset due to her "own hurt on the issue". Her husband had an affair, it was rug-swept, she is still upset over it. He needs to open up and confront the anger and hurt head-on, acknowledge feelings of mistrust and find a way to overcome it. That doesn't happen if we act nice-nice and pretend everything is OK.


I was in no way blaming her. I was pointing out that talking about an affair IS difficult to do for the OBVIOUS reason that she IS hurt and has the RIGHT to be hurt. No matter how wrong he is, she shouldn't be so surprised that he doesn't want to open up to her when she believes he is too sensitive and feels attacked all the time. Him shutting down because emotional safety is non existent between them doesn't warrant the accusation that he has no capacity for empathy or emotional closeness. Of course he is wrong to have cheated, but she decided to stay with him. She also needs to be accountable for her part in the breakdown of communication between them, rather than simply complaining how he doesn't feel safe and free communicating with her.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Cecezakat said:


> Of course he is wrong to have cheated, but she decided to stay with him. She also needs to be accountable for her part in the breakdown of communication between them, rather than simply complaining how he doesn't feel safe and free communicating with her.


Of course, I agree.
We should always think about our part in marital problems. Even in the case that another person cheats or abuses us - if we stayed with them and rug-swept the issues, that means we took an active part in their mistreatment of us.

My point is only that being afraid of talking to his wife should not prevent him from talking to his wife. Important issues need to be tackled and solved...not ignored. 

Also, she mentioned that he was raised in a family that never talked about issues. It's been ingrained in him. This needs to change if they want a successful marriage. Women like to talk about problems and come to a solution...if our husbands stay quiet, a part of us dies, because it feels like he doesn't care.


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## Cecezakat

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Of course, I agree.
> We should always think about our part in marital problems. Even in the case that another person cheats or abuses us - if we stayed with them and rug-swept the issues, that means we took an active part in their mistreatment of us.
> 
> My point is only that being afraid of talking to his wife should not prevent him from talking to his wife. Important issues need to be tackled and solved...not ignored.
> 
> Also, she mentioned that he was raised in a family that never talked about issues. It's been ingrained in him. This needs to change if they want a successful marriage. Women like to talk about problems and come to a solution...if our husbands stay quiet, a part of us dies, because it feels like he doesn't care.


You're right. At the same time, how can a couple who has serious communication problems and destroyed emotional safety between them go on to tackle one of the most difficult communication subjects, an affair? I don't see any way that them having that conversation without a professional's help will do any good. Yes, the affair hurt her, but it doesn't mean that she should attack him when he opens up about it. That's not productive, and given her history and his poor communication I think that's what will end up happening. I really think they need to have that conversation under the guidance of a professional who knows how to direct it towards healing and limit it from being a chance to attack each other.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Cecezakat said:


> You're right. At the same time, how can a couple who has serious communication problems and destroyed emotional safety between them go on to tackle one of the most difficult communication subjects, an affair? I don't see any way that them having that conversation without a professional's help will do any good. Yes, the affair hurt her, but it doesn't mean that she should attack him when he opens up about it. That's not productive, and given her history and his poor communication I think that's what will end up happening. I really think they need to have that conversation under the guidance of a professional who knows how to direct it towards healing and limit it from being a chance to attack each other.


That's a good question.
My husband and I separated because he "forced" me to live with his family even though it was toxic to our once-loving relationship. I acknowledge my part in it because I decided to marry him, knowing we'd live with my in laws...and didn't leave as soon as I realized it was a toxic living situation.

Our problem was not an affair, but it was equally as hurtful. He got his family to gang up on me and tried to kick me out of the house after an argument we had one day.

He didn't think I'd actually leave, but I did. For a year. To say that we had serious communication problems or destroyed emotional safety is a dire understatement. Everything was destroyed. When we tried to talk about it, his needs would clash with my needs and we'd end up yelling at each other. (I wanted him to move in to an apartment with me but he refused to "leave" his mother and adult siblings.)

But we still communicated. Somehow, sometimes with month-long breaks in between. In person. Through emails. Via phone. He asked me to rug-sweep and pretend it didn't happen...and I refused to do that. I told him that unless we tackle our problems head on, we won't survive as a married couple. It took a year of separation and serving him divorce papers to finally make him realize I was serious.

He's living with me now. He opens up alright. He has to, because the only other option is to permanently lose me and more than half of our daughter's childhood. 

There is a way - if both parties want it. Right now, her husband thinks she'll "just get over it if we don't talk about it". And he doesn't realize she's already checking out of the relationship. Unless he changes his approach, he won't like the outcome.

My husband and I went to a religious counsellor twice...both times my husband didn't change any of his outlook. Because he didn't WANT to. He wanted to flex his muscles and scare me. To make a long story short - when he came back to me, I told him I wanted to go to a professional counsellor (which he refused). I now know that it would have been a waste of money because he'd not be open to anything the counsellor advises in way of encouraging communication, trust and respect. Those things had to come from him.

I still want to take him to counselling, but only after I know he's truly open to it. Only after I am CONVINCED he WANTS me in his life.

Don't know why I typed all that but...yeah.


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## aine

Cecezakat said:


> If he feels attacked by you that would cause him to shut down and not want to reveal his feelings to you. You want him to open up about his past affair for your benefit, but he clearly doesn't feel safe expressing vulnerability with you. It doesn't sound like he lacks empathy at all (he was upset about his coworker). Have you considered that your attacks, even if you don't think he should be so sensitive, have made him not feel safe revealing vulnerable feelings to you? How can you say in one sentence that he is too sensitive with his emotions and then say he has no empathy?
> 
> If you are being quiet anyway and ready to step out, why not try a different approach? Try to stop commenting on or criticizing his thoughts or opinions. Stop attacking him, go vent your angry feelings to someone else (a friend, not family) and at home be a good, non-judgmental listener.
> 
> He obviously was testing the waters with you by sharing his feelings with you about how upset he was for reprimanding a coworker. If you show him signs that you will hear his vulnerable side without any attacks, he will increase what he is willing to share with you. Talking about a past affair is something very difficult to do with someone you feel has attacked you in the past. Of course the affair makes you upset and he has every reason to think it would lead to him being attacked and hurt because of your own hurt on the issue.
> 
> It doesn't matter if you think he is too sensitive about his emotions and that he has no right to feel attacked. He has the right to feel how he feels and be safe expressing his feelings to you. You can't on the one hand, crush him for being "too sensitive" and then complain about how he doesn't want to be vulnerable in front of you.


Thank you for that, yes I can see how I might be the problem. 

He has always has a tendency to think highly of himself (a bit of narcissism at play) and have far fetched notions and has said I am the one who brings balance to him as I bring him back to earth. Perhaps I enjoy that role too much nowadays and as a result he doesn't feel safe with me, I can be too blunt as I really want to whack him up the side of the head tbh. I'm just plain fed up.

For example he was just told by his friendly HR colleague that he needs to be careful with his drinking as he has said some things recently while at a staff gathering that some of his staff were unhappy with. He blamed the staff for not being loyal and he couldn't trust anyone. I pointed out that he needs to take responsibility for his own actions and not pass the blame for his behaviour on to others. They don't have to accept his behavior.

I told him he needs to look at himself first. He just got up and walked upstairs and said we will talk about this later. Did I do something wrong? I really do not want to *****foot around issues, they have to be dealt with. he would prefer if i would say the staff were wrong, you are still great, blah blah blah and I won't. He did come to me later and say I was right, but why does a 50 year old man have such a problem owning his mistakes?

My IC did say it takes two people in a marriage, I am very clear on how he has contributed to the problems and how my responses have not always been the best.
I am not so clear on what I have contributed and that is a problem.

When it is put like that I realize I have not been very introspective and honestly have really only looked at his faults to a great extent.
I am not so sure how to "see' my contribution to the problems. How do I go about identifying them? Maybe i should start another thread to see what others have done in this regard?

I guess the first on the list is not being so judgmental and be a listener (this is hard work!):|


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## aine

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I agree with everything else you said, except for the above.
> In what situation would talking about a past affair not be something very difficult to do? Please don't put the blame on her for being upset due to her "own hurt on the issue". Her husband had an affair, it was rug-swept, she is still upset over it. He needs to open up and confront the anger and hurt head-on, acknowledge feelings of mistrust and find a way to overcome it. That doesn't happen if we act nice-nice and pretend everything is OK.


On this you are right, for most of my marriage I have 'put up and shut up,' stuffed the emotions as if i had no right to feel them.

Now I am not prepared to do it anymore, (it is liberating) but i have to go about it the right way and using the sledgehammer approach is not going to work obviously (although it is my preferred method). He says i am always 'accusing' him! Even if I say you are late, you said you would be home at 9pm it's now midnight, etc his response 'you are always accusing me.' To me this is just an excuse for not owning his own actions. A mechanism to shut me down which often works. He does not like being called out on his behaviour. He told me why can't you just let it be? I guess for years I trained him how to treat me as I let so many things slide but not anymore. To my mind, if you say something, promise something, etc then you should follow through, not to him, words are not always followed by action or expected action. 

I just want to get to a point where he is very aware of how it has hurt me deeply and done something to our marriage that can never be got back as it has removed trust. I still don't trust him in this area. I think we probably do have to go to MC (I have the list from my IC) but at the moment I don't have the energy to deal with this and want to have a nice summer before my kids head overseas, maybe after the summer. This is like working through a mine field, never thought it could be so hard.


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## Cecezakat

Of course you aren't the whole problem. He has serious issues, but it's just rare that one person is close to flawless while the other is swimming in problems. Usually both people have their own problems to work on, with one have more than the other. It is a good idea to work on yourself, not because you are the bigger problem but because you only can control what you do and not what he does. 

If he is more arrogant then the best thing you can do is just listen to his complaints and not try to rescue him. Let him fall on his own a** and realize himself that his behavior needs to change. Of course you want whats best for him, but sometimes you can't ever make him see that. He needs to learn the consequences of his behavior on his own. If he thinks his coworkers are wrong and tells you, you don't have to lie and say yes they are wrong, but you could hold back your opinion. It's his life and his behavior, so let him figure it out the hard way if that's how he needs to learn. He won't learn it because you told him but it can make him resent you. 

As far as his affair, it seems like he has a pattern of bad behavior that doesn't result in much consequence. That's probably one reason you are still upset about it. You let it go under the rug for some time and that showed him again that there aren't real consequences to his behavior. What you can do for him is stop protecting him from the results of his behavior. Let him figure it out the hard way, it's about time he does. I'm not sure what's the best to do about his affair after time has already passed. Perhaps you could tell him you need him to follow strict rules to make up for what he did and to rebuild your confidence in him. If you are so fed up, then tell him you are ready to leave for good if he doesn't face some consequences. Admit to him your own mistake in letting it go previously, but that you are not able to do so anymore.


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## aine

I read through your replies again to remind myself of what I need to do. I think I am getting better at this as there have been no rows, fights, moods, etc. 
The kids have gone and now it is just the two of us. I don't know how this is going to end as I am in two minds all the time. Commit and work on it or get myself ready to leave, (I wouldn't be able to do that for at least another year as I am not financially independent but working on it). Sometimes I think, this could be great but then I see the old him and I go back to square one.

At the moment all is calm, I don't say much, neither does he. We just talk about kids, politics, the economy, all the things that are non relationship related.
We enjoy each others company whenever we happen to be in the house together, are intimate regularly (because I choose to) but generally though we each do our own thing. Previously I wanted much more, now I don't, it hurt terribly before but no longer. 
I'm not looking for answers as no-one but me can answer what I want, I know the last few years have been emotionally draining, moving across the world, depression, starting new jobs, studying, kids leaving to live 6000 miles away from us, major peri-menopausal issues, it has been a lot to shoulder for both of us.

The major lesson I learnt from it all was that I cannot depend on him emotionally because for a few of those years he totally emotionally abandoned me, we talked about that and he gave a long litany about trying to keep things together, work hard, financially support the family and he just didn't know what to do with me, etc. Instead he came home late and went drinking and partying most nights. How's that for dealing with family problems. I get all of that but I was obviously the collateral damage. He expects me to be there for him emotionally but I cannot expect the same in return in the bad times it seems. I have got to the point of accepting this but I have not decided whether I will live with it forever. I know in his own way he loves me but right now, another 25 + years of this I'm not sure. I need to really start focusing on me and creating a life for me. Thanks for letting me ramble.


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