# When the other man is a down grade



## Big10 (Nov 30, 2017)

Why would a a woman down grade. My wife had a affair with a poor unattractive older man and he has a horrible attitude. She even described him as a homeless hippie. She described the affair as stupid and had nothing to do with me. When I confonted the guy I struggled to be angry because he is so ugly. As a man naturally I thought he must be good in bed, she has assured me that was not the case either. Her and my PC thinks it's to do with her not having a father figure and not understanding the role of healthy men.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Who knows what attracts cheaters to people. My husband's ex had an affair with a man who in her own words wasn't as good looking as him and who had been divorced 3 times.
Maybe this man gave you wife the attention she sought?


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Because they get caught up with the attention they desire and coupled with their low self-esteem. And they fall pry to the first person that give it to them.


Plus not realizing what they have until they loose it.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Big10 said:


> Why would a a woman down grade. My wife had a affair with a poor unattractive older man and he has a horrible attitude. She even described him as a homeless hippie. She described the affair as stupid and had nothing to do with me. When I confonted the guy I struggled to be angry because he is so ugly. As a man naturally I thought he must be good in bed, she has assured me that was not the case either. Her and my PC thinks it's to do with her not having a father figure and not understanding the role of healthy men.


Downgrading is typical. Many affairs are born out of someone new paying attention to them, the compliments and making them feel special and not looks or sexual prowess.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

:frown2:


Big10 said:


> She described the affair as stupid and had nothing to do with me.


This is usually the truth. It probably doesn't have anything to do with you. 
It's often about some kind of character flaw and/or self-centeredness in the WS. 

You could have been the perfect husband, perfect lover, perfect companion and perfect stud and she still would have cheated simply because she wanted to.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

From a book I wrote called "The Dead Bedroom Fix":

*"That’s when she lets her guard down and allows her buttons to be so easily pushed. She very quickly runs off and has an affair with a man who, by pretty much everyone’s standard, is a total loser.

Everyone: “I don’t get it… Him?!”

Sure, her affair partner may not be gainfully employed, may live in his parents’ basement, may drive a ****ty car and may have a criminal record… but he’s fun, interesting, and something about him pushes her buttons. He makes her feel sexy. He taps into something that makes her “feel alive” again. He allows her to temporarily strip herself of the boring veneer of “wife” and “mom”. The societal pressure is miraculously lifted from her shoulders, one orgasm at a time. 

He’s her lover. He is no provider. She knows that. That’s precisely what she likes about him."*


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Big10 said:


> Why would a a woman down grade. My wife had a affair with a poor unattractive older man and he has a horrible attitude. She even described him as a homeless hippie. She described the affair as stupid and had nothing to do with me. When I confonted the guy I struggled to be angry because he is so ugly. As a man naturally I thought he must be good in bed, she has assured me that was not the case either. Her and my PC thinks it's to do with her not having a father figure and not understanding the role of healthy men.


If you are like me and you judge people by how they treat others then how could someone willing to an affair, assuming they know the person they are with is married, how could that person not be a downgrade.

I think her PC gave you a perfectly reasonable explanation. In fact I think it is the right one, one that you have to learn to live with. Your wife was screwed up. However I wonder if this is really the problem you are struggling with. Maybe you can't identify what you are really struggling with. 

In my mind if I married to someone and she cheated like your wife I would feel she downgraded herself. 

That is the thing for me, one of the reasons why there would be absolute no attempt to continue in a marriage would be because I could not be married to someone I have no respect for. In a sense I would be downgrading myself by staying.

Now that is just how I think. Is that how you think? Is this last paragraph really what you are struggling with? If you are maybe you should deal with that. Really attack that thinking.

But someone needs to say this so I guess it will be me. So reading all your other posts, it's been 10 years. 10 years! I think you absolutely must really address the possibility that this is a deal breaker for you. It will be a terrible waste if you spend the rest of your life with this one event being the primary focus of your life. It seems to be the primary focus of your relationship. 

Especially when there are literally thousands of women out there. You absolutely have the right to say I just couldn't get over it. It's obvious that you really tried, but it's 10 years and you are still struggling. I know from your other posts that your wife would be devastated but life has consequences. You have a right to be free of all of this obsession. Things in life end, and your wife will survive and get over it. You could die tomorrow and she would have to and would eventually be able to. Don't stay out of guilt. 

You can absolutely fall in love again and that love has the potential to be a healthy one without all this baggage, which it's obvious you have not gotten over. 

It's 10 years man. How many times a day do you think about this? Is it the first thing you think about when you wake up? Is it the last thing you think about when you go to sleep? I suspect if your honest it is. 

I am not telling you what to do but someone needs to point out to you that it's possible that this was just a deal breaker for you, and that is OK.


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## Big10 (Nov 30, 2017)

dadstartingover said:


> From a book I wrote called "The Dead Bedroom Fix":
> 
> *"That’s when she lets her guard down and allows her buttons to be so easily pushed. She very quickly runs off and has an affair with a man who, by pretty much everyone’s standard, is a total loser.
> 
> ...


I can see that. I have a ex girlfriend that I can not figure out why in hell I dated her. She was fat ugly and rude. The sex was not good for me either but at the time she gave me endless attention and I can understand that. I would never in a million years go back to life with her.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Yet for every affair that someone steps down, someone also steps up...


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## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

Who knows why people do the things they do? A friend of mine, right now, is going through an issue where his wife has been cheating on him. According to her, the biggest issue in their marriage is that his mother lives with them. The irony? The guy she's running around with lives with his mother.

I will never get it.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Downgrading is common. In fact most BS's downgrade too by staying with a known cheater when they could do better.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

All I can say is if you prefer 31 flavors over just one then don't get married. But once you tie the knot you can't untie it. That's why they call it a knot.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Yet for every affair that someone steps down, someone also steps up...


I had to laugh at this because it's true.

So you commonly get, the AP was a downgrade because he was fat, ugly, wore fashion from three years ago, drove a beat up car and the only reason such guys are able to get in the pants of these high value women is because the women were broken or having low self esteem etc etc.

It's never because they wanted to and the opportunity arose.

This "ugly" guy still had the gift of gab to work the woman until she caved in. Of course it's because she was broken and the sex was terrible these are all the rationalisations a BS needs to justify why their spouses would do such a thing.

The only one truism is selfishness. There's a point where you know wrong is wrong and you're stepping over the threshold to the point of no return but you still do it.

Downgrade, upgrade, ugly, beautiful, fat, thin, ripped all superficial. It comes down to morality.


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## growing_weary (Jul 23, 2017)

Rick Blaine said:


> All I can say is if you prefer 31 flavors over just one then don't get married. But once you tie the knot you can't untie it. That's why they call it a knot.


You can definitely rip it to shreds, though.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Logic and cheating are mostly strangers.

Logical cheaters are folks you really are probably better having never met.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I have a theory that any time an A is long term, ongoing and the WW is still with the BH it is because the OM is either a down grade or the OM won't commit to the WW. 

In cases where the OM is better and will have the WW full time, the WW monkey swings to the OM and is simply gone. 

I've seen this happen a number of times with people I've known personally in real life and the WW was gone in literally days. There was no ongoing or long term affair. They simply left for the OM in the opening salvos of the A. 

Long term or ongoing affairs or affairs that get busted and the WW tries to R with BH are either A's where the WW perceives there is something missing that the OM provides or the OM won't commit to taking the WW full time.


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

Something does not ring true here. You, if you want to get better, have to be honest with yourself. You have stated that your triggers are down to once a year. That makes no sense given your posts.

If, you had been thru counseling, you'd have known that triggers are potentially relationship lifelong. You'd also know that once a year is really really good. That you are now focused on OM being a downgrade and also tossing out allegations that folks here are mad because you and your wife are happy is also very telling. Also, that you keep defending her and related matters is more like someone in the early stages of betrayal and who is committed to rugsweeping.

In sum, you are not over anything. You are not being honest about triggering. You have a lot of unresolved issues that would call into question whether you guys are reconciled vs doing all the things that seem right. Sort of faking it till you make it. She may be doing everything "right", but you may not. Your post sound more like a guy 2 to 3 months post discovery. See your own counselor.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*I cannot help but believe that the vast majority of infidelity committed by both women and men is committed with “trade-downs!”

You don’t have to be anywhere near handsome or beautiful in order to convey attention to someone who might be on the prowl for a little bit of “strange!”

After all, there is no beauty contest that I’m remotely aware of for people’s genitalia!*


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

TX-SC said:


> Downgrading is common. In fact most BS's downgrade too by staying with a known cheater when they could do better.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Hey come on now, that's a dig for those of us in R  
.....my W had an A but I definitely don't consider her a downgrade, she has been thru a lot since her A and so far proven to be well worth it.... Ijs, most people shouldn't be labeled by one single act in life.... 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Hey come on now, that's a dig for those of us in R
> .....my W had an A but I definitely don't consider her a downgrade, she has been thru a lot since her A and so far proven to be well worth it.... Ijs, most people shouldn't be labeled by one single act in life....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I am actually all for R. In fact, I push for it more often than not in my posts. But, the reality is that when you find out your partner is a cheater, you instantly downgrade from a good spouse to a cheating spouse. So, although it may not be a conscious decision to downgrade, you are forced to do so. Unless... You divorce and find someone new.

No matter what "mistakes" they made or how they redeem themselves, they did cheat and therefore are no longer the same level of spouse as they were before they cheated. So, in my mind, it will always be a downgrade. However, marriages are worth saving, especially when kids are involved.

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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Big10 said:


> Why would a a woman down grade. My wife had a affair with a poor unattractive older man and he has a horrible attitude. She even described him as a homeless hippie. She described the affair as stupid and had nothing to do with me. When I confonted the guy I struggled to be angry because he is so ugly. As a man naturally I thought he must be good in bed, she has assured me that was not the case either. Her and my PC thinks it's to do with her not having a father figure and not understanding the role of healthy men.


When it comes to an AP, looks do not matter. Most affair down. The WS has this grandeous 

fantasy of rainbows, unicorns, Hermes handbags, and free golf courses. They are actors and actresses... 

they just want anyone (and I mean anyone) to play their lead and believe in the "fantasy" they have set.

They want to live in a fantasy rather than.... reality. Y'know... like kids at play.... when they pretend.

Reason many on this site profess exposure ASAP.....


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> most people shouldn't be labeled by one single act in life....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


 Rapist, pedophiles, murderers, crook, traitor, etc. 
You can't put the toothpaste back into the tube. Being labeled as something means you did it, maybe you aren't currently doing it, but you did it. You can't change that unless you have a time machine, and if you do, quit holding out on us.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Big10 said:


> Why would a a woman down grade. My wife had a affair with a poor unattractive older man and he has a horrible attitude. She even described him as a homeless hippie. She described the affair as stupid and had nothing to do with me. When I confonted the guy I struggled to be angry because he is so ugly. As a man naturally I thought he must be good in bed, she has assured me that was not the case either. Her and my PC thinks it's to do with her not having a father figure and not understanding the role of healthy men.


I've read some info on this. When both men and women have affairs, their affair partner is usually a downgrade. The affair partner gives them something that they are not getting with their spouse... sort of a 'quick fix' for something missing. So the affair partner does not have to meet all the criteria for a spouse.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> I've read some info on this. When both men and women have affairs, their affair partner is usually a downgrade. The affair partner gives them something that they are not getting with their spouse... sort of a 'quick fix' for something missing. So the affair partner does not have to meet all the criteria for a spouse.


I believe lots of times it's not something they are missing from their spouse as much as it's something they are missing in themselves. They wrongfully think their spouse is supposed to provide it for them. The old marriage is going to fix me and make me happy ever after nonsense.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Rapist, pedophiles, murderers, crook, traitor, etc.
> You can't put the toothpaste back into the tube. Being labeled as something means you did it, maybe you aren't currently doing it, but you did it. You can't change that unless you have a time machine, and if you do, quit holding out on us.


Yes agreed, that why I said "most".....not all for sure, murder and taking life are such examples, also a drunk driver that caused loss of life of another....they may not be an alcoholic anymore but....

On the OP topic, my W downgraded big time, she picked some looser with no job, no money, criminal background and later to find out he was out on bond for robbery....oh that lust is something special isn't it? 

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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Yes agreed, that why I said "most".....not all for sure, murder and taking life are such examples, also a drunk driver that caused loss of life of another....they may not be an alcoholic anymore but....
> 
> On the OP topic, my W downgraded big time, she picked some looser with no job, no money, criminal background and later to find out he was out on bond for robbery....oh that lust is something special isn't it?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I personally think in most case Infidelity is very similar to rape. It creates terrible life changing emotional trauma that is inflicted on you without any consent. For many it absolutely does life long damage. It destroys people's innocence. It doesn't completely go away you have to learn to live with it. I would suspect more then half the people who have gone through it will say it is the worst emotional pain they have ever gone through. I have seen it posted on numerous accounts that the only pain they had worse is the death of a child. Saying all that I have no problem having it compared and labeled as such. Some choices people make in life define who they are, even if they have reformed and would never do them again. That is the consequences of such terrible abuse.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

When your Wife decides to cheat on you. She instantly becomes a downgrade whether R or D.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Yet for every affair that someone steps down, someone also steps up...


This is only true to a degree. Cheaters downgrade themselves when they cheat or just cheat with someone they know is already married or in a relationship. In my opinion they have both downgraded because they have both committed adultery and traded their family for a roll in the hay. They both traded down .


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You have to think that cheaters aren’t stupid. They know what their family is worth to them. They know what they are getting into. They know but ignore that if they get caught their spouse and their kids are going to suffer terribly. They know their rep will be shot. In their mind the down grade they pick is worth the spouse and family they are risking. The affair is 100% on them. 

However things have turned out, your wife’s boyfriend was worth more than you and your family. And she made that same decision over and over.


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## Big10 (Nov 30, 2017)

Im not leaving my wife, you can say what ever you want I don't care. 10 years of counseling has exposed that my wife was struggling with her father abandoning her as a toddler and then being molested by her stepdad. She is the mother of my children and I love coming home to them. I did not like the affair and don't like the triggers I get from time to time.my wife begged me to stay to help her, we both committed to reconciliation. I would be no better than her if I walked out at this point in her life.. We have had to work through her sex issue and came out on top. At this point of her healing process it would devastate her. Yes she has hurt me but I have accepted she was broken.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

If that is the case maybe you just have to accept that you won't ever really understand and leave it at that. She was messed up so she made a very bad decision, it was 10 years ago. People who are broken make very bad choices, that is probably the best you are going to do. Don't look for rational choices from someone who is irrational.

Look man I was involved an assault years ago, it gave me PTSD. I still occasionally trigger, nothing seems to bring it on I just all of a sudden have an attack, heart racing the whole 9 yards. The thing that helps me with that is acknowledging that that is what is happening. Basically I just have to sit with it and let it pass. I know that this is just my body reacting to a memory. It's not real. You need to learn how to do the same. This is probably going to be your life if you stay with your wife. Accept it and when you trigger tell yourself that this is not your situation anymore, your wife was screwed up and is now better. It is the difference of weeks of pain or minutes.


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## doconiram (Apr 24, 2017)

She did it, I mean him, because she wanted to. She wanted him and she wanted sex with him. There is no accounting for taste.

If it happened more than once, it is because she enjoyed it and wanted more sex with him.

Any other excuse is just BS to try to make herself or maybe you feel better.

Good luck with the R. I hope that works for you both.


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## Big10 (Nov 30, 2017)

doconiram said:


> She did it, I mean him, because she wanted to. She wanted him and she wanted sex with him. There is no accounting for taste.
> 
> If it happened more than once, it is because she enjoyed it and wanted more sex with him.
> 
> ...


Im thinking of posting once a week how happy I am just to tweek some of the folks on here.


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## doconiram (Apr 24, 2017)

Glad you are happy, hope she is too. Post as often as you like.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

I wonder the same thing. I lost a girlfriend to a short hairy guy who talked about how he degrades women in bed. He did not finish high school and lacks culture and class. Then 2 months later she invites me to lunch and asks me if I would impregnate her because I am intelligent, good looking have a good sense of humor. She thought those we qualities she wanted in her child. I told her no of course. All I can think of is that she enjoyed being sexually degraded and humiliated. Apparently she came to her senses, knew she was not made for City life and just wanted to live back on the family farm with her mother and a child. She did not want me to take part in the child's life. That was her condition as if I would impregnate a woman who cheated on me with a guy who dumped her after he got all that he wanted out of her. In fact, he moved out of State and left her behind.

Women tend to cheat for emotional reasons. The other guy must have something she needs. When you are in love your brain is flooded with chemicals that make you overlook faults, want to be with that person all the time and find everything they say fascinating. My guess is that they had sex often and the Oxytocin that is released during sex did its job of emotionally bonding them. After that nothing matters but being with the person you bonded with. Some cheating spouses will cheat with the full knowledge of the consequences but are so in love they do not care. Look on the bright side; the failure rate of marriages is higher with the second marriage than the first.

My ex fiancé cheated on me when I was in combat. She cheated with a friend who has since come out as gay. She then joined a hippie commune where she got pregnant by who knows who. She married a guy who needed a green card and then cheated on him. Turns out she is a lesbian and repressing that caused mental problems and a bad life. She has been with her wife for 31 years and started her own business. In the end, who knows why spouses make the choices they do. Sometime it is as simple as feeling desired and sexy as they were during their courtship phase or think living a hippie life is exciting as my ex did only to find out that like fantasies, the reality is not the same at all.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

sokillme said:


> I would suspect more then half the people who have gone through it will say it is the worst emotional pain they have ever gone through. I have seen it posted on numerous accounts that the only pain they had worse is the death of a child.


It's traumatic for sure, no doubt, but personally I can say that it's not the most traumatic for me, and that excludes the death of a child (I can't even phathom that)
I would gladly take infidelity over my own bad one or the death of a child anytime.
But you are totally right, there is just something unique about betrayal that takes away from you.

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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> It's traumatic for sure, no doubt, but personally I can say that it's not the most traumatic for me, and that excludes the death of a child (I can't even phathom that)
> I would gladly take infidelity over my own bad one or the death of a child anytime.
> But you are totally right, there is just something unique about betrayal that takes away from you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Well I think and have read posts from many people who would disagree with you, but I am sure some people also agree.

I often wonder if that may be the difference between a successful R or not. 

If you feel like your spouse emotionally raped you it obviously is going to be a lot harder to wake up next to them every day.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't think you can put people on a scale and say "this man is *better* than that man". Desire is not rational and not based on some calculation of worth.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I don't think you can put people on a scale and say "this man is *better* than that man". Desire is not rational and not based on some calculation of worth.


Agreed. So many judge people on their looks or wealth or whatever else, but surely a mans worth is based on his character and integrity and kindness far more. To me anyway.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

sokillme said:


> I often wonder if that may be the difference between a successful R or not.


You know that's a great point, never thought of it like that, but it could be the case.


> If you feel like your spouse emotionally raped you it obviously is going to be a lot harder to wake up next to them every day.


No I never did, she raped the marriage, but not me, least how I feel about it. My W is also CSA so is hard for me to compare to rape.



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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Agreed. So many judge people on their looks or wealth or whatever else, but surely a mans worth is based on his character and integrity and kindness far more. To me anyway.


When you are in your 20s I guess that's OK, lol, because I did was that shallow then.... But not so much as you get older N wiser 

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## vej36 (Dec 23, 2017)

Why would you confront the other man? Was your wife raped or forced to engage in sexual intercourse against her will? Since, she's an adult I presume she possesses the intellectual ability to know right from wrong and the moral obligation she pledge to you. Sorry, mate the act of confronting the other man and calling him down grade is an excuse to AVOID holding your wife accountable and in fact, acknowledging she's the true DOWN GRADE. Time to get out NOW....


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Big10 said:


> Im thinking of posting once a week how happy I am just to tweek some of the folks on here.


So instead of triggering once a year you will be triggering once a week.
Sounds like a plan🙄


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## Big10 (Nov 30, 2017)

vej36 said:


> Why would you confront the other man? Was your wife raped or forced to engage in sexual intercourse against her will? Since, she's an adult I presume she possesses the intellectual ability to know right from wrong and the moral obligation she pledge to you. Sorry, mate the act of confronting the other man and calling him down grade is an excuse to AVOID holding your wife accountable and in fact, acknowledging she's the true DOWN GRADE. Time to get out NOW....



To let his wife know


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Big10 said:


> Im thinking of posting once a week how happy I am just to tweek some of the folks on here.


This post you started here isn't because you are so happy.

Your wife wasn't experiencing a psychotic episode.

Your wife became a disgusting person by choosing to defile herself and her marriage because she chose to.

Sex is pleasurable. She wanted it from him and got it.

I understand about CSA and other FOO issues but none of that is a cause for infidelity.

Understanding that she became a vile person by choice is necessary.

She also chose to stop being vile and repair her marriage and it sounds like she is doing a good job.

As far as triggers, I think @sokillme had good advice and when I trigger, trauma from a car wreck, I try to just let it pass without focusing on it.

Looking too closely at the cause of your trigger, while you are triggering is extremely damaging unless you are in need of an emotional purge. Sometimes crying is healthy.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I agree with those who point to her low self-esteem. She had an A with a person she can completely let her hair down with and feel comfortable with, someone she identifies with who is as low as she is.

Yes, she affaired down from you, but she didn't affair down from herself.

Just my .02


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Agreed. So many judge people on their looks or wealth or whatever else, but surely a mans worth is based on his character and integrity and kindness far more. To me anyway.


Ok then "based on his character and integrity" he's still a POS/downgrade because he knowingly boinked another man's wife. That pretty much scrapes the bottom of the character and integrity barrel.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

We often disagree here, but on this we are in complete agreement. 



Diana7 said:


> Agreed. So many judge people on their looks or wealth or whatever else, but surely a mans worth is based on his character and integrity and kindness far more. To me anyway.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Big10 said:


> Why would a a woman down grade. My wife had a affair with a poor unattractive older man and he has a horrible attitude. She even described him as a homeless hippie. She described the affair as stupid and had nothing to do with me. When I confonted the guy I struggled to be angry because he is so ugly. As a man naturally I thought he must be good in bed, she has assured me that was not the case either. Her and my PC thinks it's to do with her not having a father figure and not understanding the role of healthy men.


there was SOMETHING about him that was better.

Perhaps he has a casual attitude about everything as opposed to being hung up on things like, it's possible for a person to be an upgrade or downgrade.


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## Big10 (Nov 30, 2017)

DustyDog said:


> there was SOMETHING about him that was better.
> 
> Perhaps he has a casual attitude about everything as opposed to being hung up on things like, it's possible for a person to be an upgrade or downgrade.


nah I got a private investigator to follow my wife. The old dude had like 4 girlfriends and his wife. I had very long conversations with him the dude can morph into what ever he thinks you need to hear. I exposed him to his wife and co-works the dude quit his job. He said he was going to get revenge on me for lying about him. I took my wife's belongings to his house and set them out. I told her this is the man of your dreams, let him take care of you. This was when she pretty much went non contact with the old fart.She want to R I was not sure if I could ever trust her again. I had a PI follow her for a pretty long time. I also put tracking devices on our cars. Put bar software on her phone. Put her through pure hell to see if she would leave. The spent $1000s in PC And MC.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

It's not unusual to have some heartburn (buyers remourse) long term.

You made the best decision for yourself at the time. It's not going to get you much replaying it now but I get it. Running into him must have been a massive trigger (shock).


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

DustyDog said:


> there was SOMETHING about him that was better.
> 
> Perhaps he has a casual attitude about everything as opposed to being hung up on things like, it's possible for a person to be an upgrade or downgrade.


What was better was probably something like she felt equal to him as she obviously has low self esteem. If anything at the time OP was probably too much man for her.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Big10 said:


> nah I got a private investigator to follow my wife. The old dude had like 4 girlfriends and his wife. I had very long conversations with him the dude can morph into what ever he thinks you need to hear. I exposed him to his wife and co-works the dude quit his job. He said he was going to get revenge on me for lying about him. I took my wife's belongings to his house and set them out. I told her this is the man of your dreams, let him take care of you. This was when she pretty much went non contact with the old fart.She want to R I was not sure if I could ever trust her again. I had a PI follow her for a pretty long time. I also put tracking devices on our cars. Put bar software on her phone. Put her through pure hell to see if she would leave. The spent $1000s in PC And MC.


You got a private investigator? OK, check, you have MAJOR hangups
You "exposed" him? So, you like to "out" people. Manipulative
You took revenge. The most evil of human actions.
Then you spied on her phone.
Tested her by putting her through pure hell.

Yes, she cheated on you.
But yes, the other guy WAS an upgrade. 
No question.


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## Big10 (Nov 30, 2017)

DustyDog said:


> You got a private investigator? OK, check, you have MAJOR hangups
> You "exposed" him? So, you like to "out" people. Manipulative
> You took revenge. The most evil of human actions.
> Then you spied on her phone.
> ...


I have children and wealth I have to protect myself. I was not going to let her walk out on me with my kids and pay her alimony. I was preparing for a custody battle and what ever else he would have talked her into. You try to paint me into a bad guy. I think any rational person in my situation would have done the same thing. As for putting her through hell, the folks on here told me to do it 10 years ago. They walked me through the hole process when I made a post I think my wife is cheating. I was told to get a Var, gps, PI. I caught her then I was told to do a 180, I did. She wanted the R, I told her to right him a no contact letter, she did. In the no contact letter which was recommended by this forum, she put in the reason why he was a fraud and was nolonger wanting a relationship with him. She mailed it to him his wife read it. His wife called me and my wife, I felt like I had to tell her what I had found on him.


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## Big10 (Nov 30, 2017)

Also ask her to read this last night. She told me at the time she felt like he was a upgrade because he was lying to her and she enjoyed that. He was older and giving her attention, she liked that. He was promising her a life, she knew he could not provide, she liked that. She also says before her and I dated she dated older men that would hurt her emotionally. Looking back she says she was sick and had issues. when she was 16 she dated a 45 year old married man. She says looking back this was sickening and was destroying her life. Luckly through years of PC she has been able to confront her issues and understand why she had such a unhealthy problem. She says if I would have just left her and D, she would have never got the help she need to be the person she is today. As a result of our hard work she says she is able to enjoy life like she has never been able to. Before what our MC called her healing process from sexual abuse she was never able to enjoy sex, sex was more a survival skill for her. This is what our counselor told me. When a person is sexually abused as a child, their view of sex becomes distorted. Sex no longer has the same meaning it would to you and I. For her sex was survival skill, shut up get it done that way you don't get the crap beat out you with a belt, keep your mouth shut and receive a gift. This was done to her repeatedly from 9 to 15 years old. Since her healing journey our sex life is incredible, she was never able to enjoy sex, so emotional connected sex is enjoyable to her now. She no longer gets a nasty feeling from sex. I actually admire her for all she went through and the hard work she had put in. I think I get hurt when you guys say things because you don't know the work we have put into this marriage and it is better.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

In no way was I suggesting that you should dump
Your wife now. In my case I waited two years to leave my fiancé. The spark had simply been blown away. I only triggered once, about twenty five years after the fact. It was the only panic attack I have had since the week long attack I had when I first found out. Back then I was on my own and did some things right and some wrong. Like you I told her she could go be with anyone but me. She totally flipped at that suggestion. However, it turned out the relationship had been permanately tainted.

I am actually ashamed that infidelity hurt me worse than the deaths of some very close relatives. There is nothing I can do about that besides reflect on that. I would never consider R in the future and I would ruin anyone attacking my family in that way.

You might want to check out the newer ptsd treatments. I think
it’s called EMDR therapy. It’s more a physical process to rid one of a mental condition I think. 

Good luck and congratulations on what looks like a successful reconcilliation.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

sokillme said:


> ... You absolutely have the right to say I just couldn't get over it. It's obvious that you really tried, but it's 10 years and you are still struggling. I know from your other posts that your wife would be devastated but life has consequences. You have a right to be free of all of this obsession. Things in life end, and your wife will survive and get over it. You could die tomorrow and she would have to and would eventually be able to. Don't stay out of guilt.
> 
> You can absolutely fall in love again and that love has the potential to be a healthy one without all this baggage, which it's obvious you have not gotten over.
> 
> ...


I can relate to this. I wish I had listened to such messages way earlier than I did.

It took me 18 years to divorce a horrible woman from when i first learned she had cheated.

She tried to convince me that it happened once. But it never stopped until the jerk died.

And even after that I stayed.

It was a deal breaker and I just couldn't pull the plug.

Such a waste of time and energy.

I'm glad I did. It's been five years now since the divorce. I've since remarried.

Life is better.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

uhtred said:


> We often disagree here, but on this we are in complete agreement.





Diana7 said:


> Agreed. So many judge people on their looks or wealth or whatever else, but surely a mans worth is based on his character and integrity and kindness far more. To me anyway.


The common refrain from men who have discovered their wife's affair: "I did [insert long list of very good and selfless things here] for her over X years of marriage. I sacrificed for her. I never cheated, EVEN THOUGH I HAD THE CHANCE (every man says this)." 

Okay, great. You're a good person. This has absolutely positively zero impact on keeping your broken wife from cheating on you. None. Zero. Nada. You do good things for people you love, they can then turn around and hurt you. That is a fact of life. In the case of the affair, your good deeds (most of which fall under the category of "provider" traits), can actually PUSH a broken woman further across the line into affair territory. These women are looking for escapes. They don't want a dad. They don't want a husband. In their current mindset, they want a lover. They may even go as far as saying "I want to be objectified. I want to be used. I want the opposite of my husband. I'm bored with him."


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Big10 said:


> Also ask her to read this last night. She told me at the time she felt like he was a upgrade because he was lying to her and she enjoyed that. He was older and giving her attention, she liked that. He was promising her a life, she knew he could not provide, she liked that. She also says before her and I dated she dated older men that would hurt her emotionally. Looking back she says she was sick and had issues. when she was 16 she dated a 45 year old married man. She says looking back this was sickening and was destroying her life. Luckly through years of PC she has been able to confront her issues and understand why she had such a unhealthy problem. She says if I would have just left her and D, she would have never got the help she need to be the person she is today. As a result of our hard work she says she is able to enjoy life like she has never been able to. Before what our MC called her healing process from sexual abuse she was never able to enjoy sex, sex was more a survival skill for her. This is what our counselor told me. When a person is sexually abused as a child, their view of sex becomes distorted. Sex no longer has the same meaning it would to you and I. For her sex was survival skill, shut up get it done that way you don't get the crap beat out you with a belt, keep your mouth shut and receive a gift. This was done to her repeatedly from 9 to 15 years old. Since her healing journey our sex life is incredible, she was never able to enjoy sex, so emotional connected sex is enjoyable to her now. She no longer gets a nasty feeling from sex. I actually admire her for all she went through and the hard work she had put in. I think I get hurt when you guys say things because you don't know the work we have put into this marriage and it is better.


Save this post on your phone and read it the next time you trigger. Better yet have her write you something about this and save it on your phone. More importantly please stop judging your relationship from what we say or feel. By it's very nature a message board is reactionary. None of us know her, YOU are in the relationship and it's your life. Just work on your triggers, EDMR may be answer, going to get counseling on PTSD, exposure therapy. Letting her know how you feel, all those things I think would be helpful. 

In the end it's your life. Like I said in my other post, occasional I have panic attacks amid other stuff. This is what I have to live with because of choices someone else made. That's life. People have had it better, people have had it worse.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

dadstartingover said:


> The common refrain from men who have discovered their wife's affair: "I did [insert long list of very good and selfless things here] for her over X years of marriage. I sacrificed for her. I never cheated, EVEN THOUGH I HAD THE CHANCE (every man says this)."
> 
> Okay, great. You're a good person. This has absolutely positively zero impact on keeping your broken wife from cheating on you. None. Zero. Nada. You do good things for people you love, they can then turn around and hurt you. That is a fact of life. In the case of the affair, your good deeds (most of which fall under the category of "provider" traits), can actually PUSH a broken woman further across the line into affair territory. These women are looking for escapes. They don't want a dad. They don't want a husband. In their current mindset, they want a lover. They may even go as far as saying "I want to be objectified. I want to be used. I want the opposite of my husband. I'm bored with him."


This is 100% true. Evaluating yourself by others is just a straight line to feeling bad about yourself. Judge yourself, the success of your marriage by your own actions. In this case I get that it's painful that your wife did something so hurtful, but honestly in my mind her actions say nothing about you. Great husbands get cheated on every day. Terrible ones don't get cheated on. Cheating is a function of your spouses character. The survival of your marriage is many times a function of how well you treat your spouses but again lots of marriages break up without cheating. 

STOP judging yourself by your wives actions, she even says you were a good husband.


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## Big10 (Nov 30, 2017)

My PC and I have known I have A form of PTSD from this. I did not want to accept that.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

My XW's AP was a major downgrade from me in every category. When she had her affair she thought she wouldn't get caught and would get to keep her husband and BF and have the perfect situation, but in reality she was caught very quickly and ended up with neither. I think the downgrade is sometimes just due to a lack of foresight and people falsely believing they can have everything they want with no consequences.


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## Big10 (Nov 30, 2017)

*Re: When the other*



Bananapeel said:


> My XW's AP was a major downgrade from me in every category. When she had her affair she thought she wouldn't get caught and would get to keep her husband and BF and have the perfect situation, but in reality she was caught very quickly and ended up with neither. I think the downgrade is sometimes just due to a lack of foresight and people falsely believing they can have everything they want with no consequences.


To me this seems like some kinda of mental illness. The same thing my wife was dealing with. I have a hard time thinking someone was just born this way and can't do anything about it.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

With my wife it was mostly just from low self-esteem and poor morals. She liked the attention and was able to justify the actions to herself as something she could live with. It was her choice to make and her consequences to live with. I also think my wife had mild depression and the excitement from the affair basically was like she was self medicating for that. I don't know if that counts as mental illness, but if your wife has depression issues then that could partially explain her actions. Of course all of this is just my interpretation and I could be totally off base.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Bananapeel said:


> With my wife it was mostly just from low self-esteem and poor morals. She liked the attention and was able to justify the actions to herself as something she could live with. It was her choice to make and her consequences to live with. I also think my wife had mild depression and the excitement from the affair basically was like she was self medicating for that. I don't know if that counts as mental illness, but if your wife has depression issues then that could partially explain her actions. Of course all of this is just my interpretation and I could be totally off base.


This days thou something just like boredom gets labeled as depression. I just read an article yesterday that talked about how doctors overprescribe antidepressants for things like depression, from grieving the loss of a loved one, when in fact that's a normal event in life and not depression in of itself. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Big10 said:


> Also ask her to read this last night. She told me at the time she felt like he was a upgrade because he was lying to her and she enjoyed that. He was older and giving her attention, she liked that. He was promising her a life, she knew he could not provide, she liked that. She also says before her and I dated she dated older men that would hurt her emotionally. Looking back she says she was sick and had issues. when she was 16 she dated a 45 year old married man. She says looking back this was sickening and was destroying her life. Luckly through years of PC she has been able to confront her issues and understand why she had such a unhealthy problem. She says if I would have just left her and D, she would have never got the help she need to be the person she is today. As a result of our hard work she says she is able to enjoy life like she has never been able to. Before what our MC called her healing process from sexual abuse she was never able to enjoy sex, sex was more a survival skill for her. This is what our counselor told me. When a person is sexually abused as a child, their view of sex becomes distorted. Sex no longer has the same meaning it would to you and I. For her sex was survival skill, shut up get it done that way you don't get the crap beat out you with a belt, keep your mouth shut and receive a gift. This was done to her repeatedly from 9 to 15 years old. Since her healing journey our sex life is incredible, she was never able to enjoy sex, so emotional connected sex is enjoyable to her now. She no longer gets a nasty feeling from sex. I actually admire her for all she went through and the hard work she had put in. I think I get hurt when you guys say things because you don't know the work we have put into this marriage and it is better.


This is very similar to my W, she had untreated CSA as well that was exactly as you described, she went thru a tuff time realizing that in therapy, she saw how this still greatly affected her to the day of her A, and how much destruction she had caused, and she really hit rock bottom..... Then shortly after she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer and had to undergo a complete hysterectomy.... So since her A she has gone thru a lot of tough experiences and she has learned a lot, I do also give her credit for riding all that out, we are in good shape, however i still stand that the affair was totally her choice.... No excuses. There are a lot people with CSA that don't cheat.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Big10 (Nov 30, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> With my wife it was mostly just from low self-esteem and poor morals. She liked the attention and was able to justify the actions to herself as something she could live with. It was her choice to make and her consequences to live with. I also think my wife had mild depression and the excitement from the affair basically was like she was self medicating for that. I don't know if that counts as mental illness, but if your wife has depression issues then that could partially explain her actions. Of course all of this is just my interpretation and I could be totally off base.


My PC says I have this obsession to fix things. From my job to my relationship.


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## Mrs.Stone (Jan 25, 2018)

A down grade when you don't really want to leave your partner is healthy. If you up grade you will be gone in no time.

I do agree with the father figure thing if she has those type of issues


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Big10 said:


> My wife had a affair with a poor unattractive older man and he has a horrible attitude.


I hope you mean your STBXW?

EDIT: Sorry, just read the rest of the thread, and I see that you are staying with her. I do hope that it works out for you.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

I think most waywards take for granted that their spouse will fotgive and stay after they had their fun.

Seems like it's a 50/50 shot at success.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Marc878 said:


> I think most waywards take for granted that their spouse will fotgive and stay after they had their fun.
> 
> Seems like it's a 50/50 shot at success.


If your spouse is a cheater is she really better then the person they cheat with. Just looks like two cheaters to me.


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