# ok, today I'm pissed



## nader (May 4, 2011)

this is a little long, but I am just sooo frustrated and need to vent. I love my wife. I believe that she tries and that we can make this work. I know it was just a bad day, I know that we have some great times and that she tries, but it is just sooo frustrating sometimes. Today it seemed like she wasn't even trying.

Yesterday my wife worked 6-2 at her job while I stayed with the baby. I was on a housecleaning kick and ended up loading the dishwasher, doing laundry, weedeating in the backyard, cleaned the bathroom - normal things. I normally try to do a little here and there on these days, but yesterday I was on some kind of rampage. This is in between taking care of the baby. So then I decided to do a little extra - I went to the store and got lightbulbs to replace *all the burned out bulbs in the house.* I also picked up a sunday newspaper which my wife gets for the coupons, and left them on the front porch with a little note.

I also just joined a new band the night before, so I've had time away from the house to do my own thing as well. I am trying not to be too clingy or 'try too hard,' being balanced, etc.

So she comes home.. she is generally pleasant at first, but then starts talking about how there was pee splattered she just noticed that morning on the toilet in the guest bathroom. I said, so yesterday I did nothing, today I did all this, yet either way I get *****ed at about something? She halfway apologized, we had sex for awhile. *She refused to go down on me.. then asked me to. I NEVER refuse to go down on her (because I love it!), but this time I did, because it's just not fair.* We have some zesty and genuinely fun intercourse for awhile, she finishes, then the baby cries and I'm stuck, unfulfilled (sometimes I just take longer). *I try to get her to promise me we can continue later and all I can get is a 'maybe.' She always wants to give herself an out, also unfair.*

I get dragged to target and wal-mart for errands. I tried to stay home to work on some music, but she said she'd really like me to come along. I should have stayed home! I kept pointing out that she was being unpleasant and *****y, that she needs to be my friend.. she was like, fine, I'm your friend. I asked her why she wanted me to come with her, she said she couldn't remember. Things calmed down for a little while. She bought me a coffee drink, which was nice of her. (in a rush to get the baby ready, I had left my wallet at home.)

We get home, I go to work on some music. After a few minutes she interrupts me demanding that I find a cap for one of the baby's bottles that I had misplaced. There are any number of bottle caps she could use, but it has to be _*that one. just because. The blue ones are for daycare!! You have to find it, before you go to bed!*_ I found it in a few minutes, went back to my music and had dinner.

So this is where I get mad. After dinner, I go back to working on my music. She drops in on me while I'm sitting at the keyboard. Kisses me passionately for a few seconds and says, "don't stay up too late, ok?" I ask, how late is too late, she says, when I'm asleep.

So I work for a few more minutes until I start to get tired. I glance into the bedroom, she is giving the baby his last bottle for the night. I wait a few more minutes for her to finish, and then crawl into bed, thinking she is ready for me.

*Then she asks if we can just cuddle because she is tired!*

I just about went through the roof! After what to me was clearly an invitation for round II, she is tired. I called her out, telling me she was jerking me around and that if she was tired she should have just left me alone. She got teary eyed and said she's sorry she can't make me happy, she is tired. I told her that she really, really needs to figure this out because people get divorced over things like this if is allowed to continue for a long time.

I truly believe that it stems from her being tired, and I do not think she is some manipulative harpy (on purpose). But this time i was mad. I could have accepted her being tired, but she was acting like she was initiating.

I can live with sex getting interrupted here and there for the baby. Even if we don't get to finish that night. *But being jerked around like that is just downright cruel and I hope I made my point.*

Tonight I have a gig and I will be out late. I could go the rest of the day without seeing her or talking to her and I'd be totally fine with just crawling into bed while she is already alseep, or even sleeping on the couch. I am probably just going to wait for her to call me and see what happens. I do not feel like crawling back to her and I don't feel I have much of anything to apologize for.

This morning before she got into work she sent me an I Love You txt. For the first time, I haven't txted back.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

.. so am I wrong to be pissed about this? Was it understandable to misinterpret my wife this way? how should I have handled this?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

It sounds like you're justified in your anger. But, part of that anger should be directed at yourself. Your wife was throwing you fitness tests and you were failing.

I think you're justified in turning down the thermostat. If she's making you jump through hoops, she should get less attention.

But you need to control your anger. Let her know you're not happy. Don't let her know that she's been successful at ruining your day.

And don't talk about divorce until your serious. If she cheats on you, threaten divorce. If she frustrates you sexually, fix the problem.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

I feel like the only thing I really failed at was following her around in Target like a puppy. Looking back, that's the main thing I would have done differently. Maybe taking my sweet time to look for that bottle cap. Was there something else I missed?

ETA: not even considering D word,even for a second. I meant to point out that there is work to be done, or it will get worse years from now.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Yeah you need to fire the floor supervisor and adopt a more communist model. No bosses no quality control wonks. This is the complaint all young sahw's have. She's been cooped up with the little crack monkeys all day and when the man comes home he critiques everything, demands service and want to boogie on the love muffin. 

A common refrain here at the Dog House is "If you have a better way to do it to your satisfaction then do it your damn self."


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

I saw lots of fitness tests that you failed.

Sorry just calling it like I see it.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

well of course, that's why I'm posting here. RLAD, you speak in riddles. Or are you responding to a different thread?


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

should this get moved to the Clubhouse? I really would like some feedback here.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

So what's your question? The feedback you're getting is to man up, as per the Men's Clubhouse threads. 

FWIW, I used to get the perpetual "tomorrow" promises from my wife. She's now my stbx-wife. That wasn't a major factor in the relationship in general, but I took it as rejection, which built on the resentment. I think I could have handled it better by refusing to play her game, even though I doubt it was a conscious game to her.

C


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

Just more specific feedback on how I could have handled this better, than generally 'manning up.' Of course I have to man up!

I think I've done this in some ways but not in other ways. It was just a roller coaster of a day for me emotionally yesterday and people here have given me good advice before.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

nader said:


> So she comes home.. she is generally pleasant at first, but then starts talking about how there was pee splattered she just noticed that morning on the toilet in the guest bathroom. I said, so yesterday I did nothing, today I did all this, yet either way I get *****ed at about something?


You should have kept your cool. You could either smile and walk away, or you could calmly state that you've done more than enough chores for the day and point her toward the mop. Or, my favorite, agree and amplify. Say, "I meant to hit the wall too. I'll have to work on my aim."



nader said:


> I try to get her to promise me we can continue later and all I can get is a 'maybe.'


Don't ask. Inform her that this is a short break to be resumed later.



nader said:


> I get dragged to target and wal-mart for errands.


You realize your error here.



nader said:


> After a few minutes she interrupts me demanding that I find a cap for one of the baby's bottles that I had misplaced. There are any number of bottle caps she could use, but it has to be _*that one. just because.*_


Another fitness test. If there were other tops available, then you give her the option of using one of those or looking for the missing one herself. If she insists you do it, then you get to it when you can.



nader said:


> [She] Kisses me passionately for a few seconds and says, "don't stay up too late, ok?" I ask, how late is too late, she says, when I'm asleep.


It's not clear here, but this may have been an immediate invitation. I know if my wife initiates, she's not suggesting sex in 10 minutes, she's talking about that very second. If she was still tending to the baby, then you interpreted it correctly.



nader said:


> I wait a few more minutes for her to finish, and then crawl into bed, thinking she is ready for me.
> 
> *Then she asks if we can just cuddle because she is tired!*
> 
> I just about went through the roof! After what to me was clearly an invitation for round II, she is tired. I called her out, telling me she was jerking me around and that if she was tired she should have just left me alone.


If you were right that she was initiating for later, and we're talking about a 20-minute delay (or thereabouts), then you're correct. She was testing you. If she was wanting immediate sex, or you waited an hour and a half before coming to bed, then she has a point. Either way, don't get mad. And don't ask. If you were right on the timing, then come to bed and just start things up. If she balks, calmly call her out and give her an opportunity to get on board the sex train. If she refuses, turn down the thermostat.



nader said:


> I told her that she really, really needs to figure this out because people get divorced over things like this if is allowed to continue for a long time.


I see that you qualified the divorce threat. But, it's still uncool. Divorce is the marital nuclear bomb. You only mention it in the most dire circumstances. Not when you're frustrated and popping your top.

If you and I were having an argument and I pulled out a pistol and told you not to worry about it because I'm a long way from being angry enough to use it, you would rightfully flip out. The threat of divorce is a similar situation. If it's warranted, use it. If it's not, don't make yourself look foolish by using the word.



nader said:


> I could go the rest of the day without seeing her or talking to her and I'd be totally fine with just crawling into bed while she is already alseep, or even sleeping on the couch. I am probably just going to wait for her to call me and see what happens. I do not feel like crawling back to her and I don't feel I have much of anything to apologize for.
> 
> This morning before she got into work she sent me an I Love You txt. For the first time, I haven't txted back.


Don't sleep on the couch. You look like you're retreating. Plus, it's hard for her to initiate sex when you're not in the room. It sounds like she was messing with you and is trying to approach you. An "I Love You" text isn't the same as an "I'm Sorry" text, which may be more warranted. But, it's something.

Overall, I think your problems were that you were frustrated and angry. It's OK to feel that way. But you should usually not communicate that. Especially in the face of fitness tests. Amused mastery is the mindset to project. When she tests you, grin and deflect it. Use the agree and amplify tactic. Or, calmly call her out on her test. Either way, you should communicate that she's not going to rattle you easily.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

can you explain 'agree and amplify?'

Also


> Don't ask. Inform her that this is a short break to be resumed later.


How would you have worded this exactly?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

nader said:


> can you explain 'agree and amplify?'


Just like my example of aiming for the wall. It's a humorous way to deflect the test without specifically getting serious.

If you stay out late and your phone goes dead, your wife may be worried about you. When you get home, she may accuse you of having a mistress. If this charge may be warranted (you have a history of cheating), then deal with the accusation earnestly. If the charge is unwarranted (you were playing a gig she knew about and you've always been loyal to a fault), then you can agree and amplify. Tell her you don't have a mistress. You have three.

This diffuses the situation with humor. It also points out that her question/accusation isn't kosher. Women like humor and they like men standing up to them. Agree and amplify has both.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

nader said:


> How would you have worded this exactly?


Just like I stated. When the baby interrupts you, grin and tell her, "We'll continue this tonight."


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> Just like I stated. When the baby interrupts you, grin and tell her, "We'll continue this tonight."



I do see what you're saying and how it would work, but am I the only one out there who longs for a relationship where people can show love and do nice things without fear, genuinely give freely of themselves physically, say what they mean, mean what they say and just live life without all this game playing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

nader said:


> well of course, that's why I'm posting here. RLAD, you speak in riddles. Or are you responding to a different thread?


I think the answer is obvious if, in your mind you reverse the genders of both of you and replay it. Look, the problem is pretty simple. Everyone gets stressed out with their day. He does, you do. No one, and I mean NO ONE wants to hear a job review the moment you breeze in the door. So if you're nitpicking about this that and the other didn't get completed to your satisfaction, then right then and there fix it yourself. In my house people do irritating **** like stand in front of the toilet and announce to the world that it's running. Why the **** are you telling me this? Jiggle the damn handle, shut up and move on. 

If I ever so much as came home back in the day with my wife at home with 2 or 3 toddlers and started listing all things which weren't up to snuff....it would end in some pretty spectacular screaming or worse. 

Maybe the best thing is to resurrect that wonderful American suburban custom of a come-home bourbon and nobody talk to anyone for 15 minutes? Then when that's over, you scoop up each other in your arms and hug and get the next part of your evening off to a good start. 

Maybe it's a generational thing and younger people today can't say the obvious truth to one another. I am prone to be much more direct and say things like "I can't and won't talk to about this now" and leave the room. Not in anger, just walk out. If she follows me yipping and nipping like a crazed terrier, well all kinds of **** are going to happen, least of all sex. But it never was, was it?


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

PHTlump has given excellent advice!

I'll just add some tips about the sex part.

You should have said, "We'll pick up where we left off later." with a wiggle of your brows or a sexy stare and a fast kiss on the lips. Basically, anything fun and suggestive of what WILL happen later.

That night in bed you just hop in and start initiating sex. Do not ask anything. Either just go for it or _tell_ her to take off her top or whatever. You have to create some excitement or passion. If you try nuzzling and being sexy playful and she still complains of being tired then hand her some lube. She can at least give you a handjob!

If you really feel you must initiate sex with a question ask "top or bottom?" or "Oral or doggie?" The default answer MUST be some sort of sex. But, really, avoid asking for sex because it is a turn off for most women.
Another thing you could say is "I'm so hard for you right now." I like this best whispered or growled in my ear. Also telling her how much she is going to enjoy what you are going to do to her.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

golfergirl said:


> I do see what you're saying and how it would work, but am I the only one out there who longs for a relationship where people can show love and do nice things without fear, genuinely give freely of themselves physically, say what they mean, mean what they say and just live life without all this game playing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, you're not the only one! 

I don't know - my H and I don't relate in the manner that the OP has stated, so I have a hard time figuring it out. I do know that after a long, busy day whether we actually had some intimate time together or not, and if I was dead-dog tired at bedtime, my H wouldn't have pushed me and wouldn't have gotten mad - he would have just smiled at me and said "I'll get you tomorrow!"


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> No, you're not the only one!
> 
> I don't know - my H and I don't relate in the manner that the OP has stated, so I have a hard time figuring it out. I do know that after a long, busy day whether we actually had some intimate time together or not, and if I was dead-dog tired at bedtime, my H wouldn't have pushed me and wouldn't have gotten mad - he would have just smiled at me and said "I'll get you tomorrow!"


Normally that wouldn't happen. We've had plenty of uneventful evenings, or really good times.. but remember this time, she came in and just started kissing me out of the blue. Stopped and then said, 'don't stay up too late.'

Mixed signals and the feeling of being jerked around, after previously interrupted sex where she got hers and I never got mine - that's what bothered me.

Thanks everyone for your input, esp. PHTlump


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

nader said:


> Normally that wouldn't happen. We've had plenty of uneventful evenings, or really good times.. but remember this time, she came in and just started kissing me out of the blue. Stopped and then said, 'don't stay up too late.'
> 
> Mixed signals and the feeling of being jerked around, after previously interrupted sex where she got hers and I never got mine - that's what bothered me.
> 
> Thanks everyone for your input, esp. PHTlump


Well, that kiss may have been her way of initiating. You should have gotten up right then, picked her up, and carried her to the bedroom! See I am not real great at initiating, but I am trying. That sounds like something I would do, but H is on to me and he would drop everything and run right after me.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

golfergirl said:


> I do see what you're saying and how it would work, but am I the only one out there who longs for a relationship where people can show love and do nice things without fear, genuinely give freely of themselves physically, say what they mean, mean what they say and just live life without all this game playing?


No, you're not alone. However, the OP is in the middle of a game that his wife is playing. Most mating involves game playing to some degree. Therefore, he had better learn how to win the game.

The game is for the OP to basically become more attractive by becoming more socially competent. If a woman has the choice of a man who becomes aggravated easily versus a man who retains his composure and seems to handle life's hurdles without breaking a sweat, most women will choose the latter. In this case, it's an easy skill to become proficient at. A little practice will go a long way. Other strategies (earning more, losing weight) can be very difficult and/or take a long time to come to fruition. But the OP can start passing fitness tests tomorrow.

The good news is that, in this game, when he wins, they both win. It's not a zero sum game.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> No, you're not alone. However, the OP is in the middle of a game that his wife is playing. Most mating involves game playing to some degree. Therefore, he had better learn how to win the game.
> 
> The game is for the OP to basically become more attractive by becoming more socially competent. If a woman has the choice of a man who becomes aggravated easily versus a man who retains his composure and seems to handle life's hurdles without breaking a sweat, most women will choose the latter. In this case, it's an easy skill to become proficient at. A little practice will go a long way. Other strategies (earning more, losing weight) can be very difficult and/or take a long time to come to fruition. But the OP can start passing fitness tests tomorrow.
> 
> The good news is that, in this game, when he wins, they both win. It's not a zero sum game.


_Posted via Mobile Device_

I understand why he has to - I just have friends in awesome relationships without the drama and I am envious!


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## jmsclayton (Sep 5, 2010)

Hi 

sharing

Nader said: 
hen she asks if we can just cuddle because she is tired!

Judith: Well when women work and have house work to do-it is hard for them to get in the mood. The key with women is to find something that relates emotionally and relationally with them. Help them to transfer to wanting sex. Nonsexual touch to start with is vital. 

Ask her why she is reluctant to pursue it the second time. Depending on her age as well-sometimes in the 30s -women will have a spurt of sexual energy. 


I just about went through the roof! After what to me was clearly an invitation for round II, she is tired. I called her out, telling me she was jerking me around and that if she was tired she should have just left me alone. She got teary eyed and said she's sorry she can't make me happy, she is tired. I told her that she really, really needs to figure this out because people get divorced over things like this if is allowed to continue for a long time.

Judith: Remember women relate relationally in sex. Are you two having a date nit? once a week wihtout sex. That is what women need. Not doing any romance nonsexually as well as sexually -women have hard time getting into it. YOu need to romance her nonsexually-baby takes it out of a woman. Ask her if she is not sure how to maintain your marital relationship while having the baby. 

I truly believe that it stems from her being tired, and I do not think she is some manipulative harpy (on purpose). But this time i was mad. I could have accepted her being tired, but she was acting like she was initiating.

Judith: Women are extra tired especially when they work. The key is to find what you can do for her at home all the time. and talk to her and romance her etc. 

I can live with sex getting interrupted here and there for the baby. Even if we don't get to finish that night. But being jerked around like that is just downright cruel and I hope I made my point.

Judith: Women have a hard time getting back into it unless you see what you can do to do things together to open the door talk to her about nonsexual things besides sexual things. Sex Begins in the Kitchen. 

Tonight I have a gig and I will be out late. I could go the rest of the day without seeing her or talking to her and I'd be totally fine with just crawling into bed while she is already alseep, or even sleeping on the couch. I am probably just going to wait for her to call me and see what happens. I do not feel like crawling back to her and I don't feel I have much of anything to apologize for.

Judith: Calling and talking daily by phone etc. will help you to to connect during the day and help her. 
It is vital that you both kiss before you leave and hug each day that helps you two to connect even if the sexual is not able to happen for whatever reason. Maybe see if you can just do nonsexual touch leading to sexual touch without intercourse and build from there. 

Thoughts? 

Judith

This morning before she got into work she sent me an I Love You txt. For the first time, I haven't txted back.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

I just want to share that I am a woman and I do NOT find it hard to get into sex. 

I crave sex, I have passionate fantasies and I wish I could make love every single day.

Romance is needed, but it is not necessary or realistic to have hearts and flowers *all *the time. Sometimes, I want Mr.G to take me like a starving man at a banquet.:smthumbup: 

We have the right to enjoy a sexual relationship with our spouses!


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

Mrs.G said:


> I just want to share that I am a woman and I do NOT find it hard to get into sex.
> 
> I crave sex, I have passionate fantasies and I wish I could make love every single day.
> 
> ...


I think passion and excitement can be more important for sex than romance.


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## jmsclayton (Sep 5, 2010)

*Re: ok, today I'm pissed nader*

Hi Nader

sharing

IN case it was misunderstood romantically sexually more often than not at all. 

Keep in touch with her by text or whatever. Nonsexual talk is foreplay to a woman through out the day to build her sexually. Ask her what she would handle in text. Sometimes women don't think sexually and to help them to think sexually -some women put it on the personal calendar. YOu could ask her what you can do through text. 

Judith


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I think your problem was that you felt unappreciated. There's a disconnect between the person at home and the person who works. The person who works is auto-valued and so they don't have the same daily need for recognition, etc.

You spent all day doing a lot and instead of pointing out any of your many works, she nitpicks on the few things you didn't do and they are tiny compared to the big things you did do.

Every SAHM/SAHD can understand this dynamic. It happens all the time. I clean, cook, laundry, yard, drop things (people too) off, pick them up, etc. and everyone thinks it just magically happens. heh

So I think it's a double dynamic. I didn't see fitness testing, I saw a lack of appreciation on your wife's behalf. She doesn't get it. I'm not sure why but you need to make it clear to her what you did and how she made you feel in a way that is not whiny/needy/a$$holey. It's tough to do.

I just did it last night because my husband cut and re-formatted my Ikea Pax wardrobe to fit in our new room (lower ceilings) and afterwards he wants a gold star from me. I told him...I really, really want to give you that gold star but I'd love for you to take a look around and see the fifteen billion things I did today without any appreciation. 

As soon as I started listing them and explaining he softened and took me to bed.

Will your wife respond like this? I don't know. The key is to not let it bottle up. If you're feeling unappreciated you need to speak up right away and clearly. She has to be able to empathize with you which is why I chose the moment he was asking for praise for his handy carpenter work.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Trenton as always you make a good point. As a homemaker I'm over needing gold stars for what I do. I give them to myself. My husband on the other hand CRAVES them even if all he did was reset the clock on the dvd player for me. I find it cute now that I see it for what it is.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

Judith:
I'm not sure you read my whole post. I think I am a pretty kickass husband. I did all kinds of stuff around the house that day. When I'm home with the baby I try to think of things to take initiative with; it varies depending on how fussy he is on a given day, but I don't just sit around and play video games. We both do our best to have as much quality time together; we have at least one date night a week, meet up for lunch during the weekday when we can, watch movies together. If anything we smother each other and need to do more things for ourselves separately. As a musician I get to do this more than she does; I actively encourage her to go out and do things, but she is not used to the idea of leaving the baby with anyone just yet, which I understand.

I am the affectionate one who always wants to kiss HER. Lately she is not as responsive when I kiss her as she used to be. Sometimes she doesn't kiss me AT ALL when we have sex, usually if it's before I brush my teeth. This is not how it was before she got pregnant!

The reason I was upset was not because she turned me down at bedtime. It's because of the mixed signal from kissing me earlier and THEN turning me down. 

Trenton: my wife and I both work, so both have roughly an equal amount of time with the baby. I have weekends off and she has a couple weekdays off. But I think you get the idea. I felt unappreciated and disconnected, and then later jerked around sexually. Before going to bed, I was VERY clear about how I felt, she apologized, and then apologized some more yesterday. We are good now; I am doing my best NOT to bottle things up and I think she appreciates that. Better to fight often and make up often than to just drift apart, right?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nader said:


> Better to fight often and make up often than to just drift apart, right?


Undeniably true if you are fighting fair and your fights lead to mutual understanding rather than further frustration.

I've noticed that since my husband and I changed the way we fight or have "differences of opinion"-lol the outcome is markedly different.

Previously my husband would do something I'd consider a d!ck move like show up three hours after he said he'd be home without calling by getting even. I would torture the crap out of him in any way, shape or form I found effective and often they were ridiculous...such as microwaving his leftover dinner until it was brown and hard in several places and putting it in front of him with a scary smile and saying, "Enjoy!"

Now I'm honest right away, such as with the wardrobe and me feeling too unappreciated to appreciate. This has changed the entire dynamic of our relationship. So there's no longer all and all out fights, just re-connections after we have begun to disconnect.

Also, the fact that you both work doesn't mean that you both don't need appreciation for what you do when either one of you is home. It's still not fair for the working partner to come home and nitpick when the at home parent has hauled bum all day doing a wonderful job.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> Trenton as always you make a good point. As a homemaker I'm over needing gold stars for what I do. I give them to myself. My husband on the other hand CRAVES them even if all he did was reset the clock on the dvd player for me. I find it cute now that I see it for what it is.


Seriously, it's like the grill scenario played out in home after home. Woman purchases, marinates and sets up entire party. Husband grills prime rib and everyone at the party keeps saying what an amazing job he did. 

It is sort of cute isn't it? You get the joy of their joy and pride.

I think women need less recognition (possibly) because we like to nurture and care for others. I know I do but that doesn't mean I want zero appreciation/recognition either.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Trenton I get appreciation and recognition but it's subtle and I have to look for it. It's there though.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

I think men are just more insecure and needy and women are naturally tougher and more resilient about things like this. We need admiration and respect from _someone_ in order to be happy. I like to get a pat on the back if my wife has an awesome orgasm, if I do something useful at home without being told, or if I play a facemelting keyboard solo with my band. I might be especially vulnerable this way, more than other men, because I have experienced a good deal of failure and spinning my wheels, career-wise, in life; have watched peers become more successful than me and have never been all that great with the ladies.

I make sure I let my wife know I appreciate her as well, but I don't think she craves it the same way I do. I think she at least realizes that I am trying not to take her for granted, which is the important thing.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Nader this has been my observation as well. My husband NEEDS me to affirm him. I mean need, crave, gets crushed without it kinda need.

What's crazy is that I just looked at him as this big tough guy who was tougher than me. And I was wrong. I'm way tougher than him emotionally. He baits me for praise as much as humanly possible over every little thing. 

This is hard for me to do though. He'll be all "I got the mail for you" and I'm thinking SO....like trenton said I did a million other little things and now you want a gold star. It seems so fake but really he just wants a hug and a sincere thank you.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> Nader this has been my observation as well. My husband NEEDS me to affirm him. I mean need, crave, gets crushed without it kinda need.
> 
> What's crazy is that I just looked at him as this big tough guy who was tougher than me. And I was wrong. I'm way tougher than him emotionally. He baits me for praise as much as humanly possible over every little thing.
> 
> This is hard for me to do though. He'll be all "I got the mail for you" and I'm thinking SO....like trenton said I did a million other little things and now you want a gold star. It seems so fake but really he just wants a hug and a sincere thank you.


Mine too and he's the silent, strong type but he's not that way with me and this is what I sooooo love about him. He has given me the part of him he refuses to show the rest of the world and he wants my appreciation and admiration and I genuinely feel it.

I think we all feel it for our spouses but sometimes it gets lost in the everyday in and out of our lives so if there's a chance to appreciate one another, I say take it.

Funny thing is we're having a garbage problem with our new neighbors (we just moved in). I keep complaining about it but, I'm a total wimp when it comes to confrontation and so will do nothing about it. I woke up this morning and the garbage was where I wanted it after back and forth with the neighbors so I knew he took care of it for me and I texted him, "You took care of the garbage thing. You're my hero." He wrote back, "You are my love."

Sigh. Appreciation enough.

If you saw us a few months ago, that type of dialogue would never have been able to happen. We were too busy worrying about what our own selfish thoughts and needs were and not appreciating one another's feelings/thoughts.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

So sweet. You are ahead of me in changes. I hope to be where you are very soon.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

we had a MUCH better day yesterday, featuring morning AND bedtime sex.

When I came home she was a little touchy with me, when I gently pried, she cried and told me she needs more time for herself (which I've almost nagged her about). All she gets, really, is grocery shopping and shower time. She felt guilty for wanting to be away from the baby, and I was in just the right place to comfort and reassure her. I insisted that she arrange a girls night ASAP, and if I had to call her friends myself I would. I think the whole exchange made me feel like more of a man and made her feel like more of a woman. She got go get her groceries while i set up my keyboard and worked on some music with the baby in the room with me. It was wonderful. (I've only just recently been able to set up my keyboard due to clutter which we've made a great deal of progress with!) When she got back she was kissing me freely, much more so than earlier this week.

We had rented a movie to watch for the night, but, let's just say the movie will have to wait!


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

I've got 3 kids (youngest is 5) and I've only just recently gotten over that mommy guilt of needing/wanting time to myself. I'm an introvert so alone time is necessary for me to function. My husband was always trying to give it to me but I felt guilty for taking it. 

I'm glad to hear you are being more gentle with your wife. Mommy guilt is the worst. Good for you for prying that out of her and insisting that she get out. She needs that.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

Thing is, she has to let her guard down and tell me what's really going on in order for me be the strong and gentle guy she needs in her life. She had made some snarky comment about how it must be nice for me to be able to get out and do things.. .I wasn't going to let that stand since she is always telling me she supports my hobbies. I'm not sure what it was that triggered her to start crying (she's barely cried about anything since we had the baby), but what could have been just another spat somehow turned out to be hugely cathartic for both of us.


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## sexuallyfustrated (Mar 24, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> I saw lots of fitness tests that you failed.
> 
> Sorry just calling it like I see it.


I'm a woman and maybe a little square....what are fitness test and which ones did he fail?


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## sexuallyfustrated (Mar 24, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Just like I stated. When the baby interrupts you, grin and tell her, "We'll continue this tonight."


Gotta admit Nadar: That would turn me on and have me looking forward to later. Reguardless of what MOST women say and we may not show it but we like it when our men show back bone and stand up to us. I mean of coures I like having my way who wouldn't but I admire and find it attractive when my man nows when to draw the line. It's a turn on.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

Look at some stickies in the Men's clubhouse for info on 'fitness tests.'

But in a nutshell, it means your wife is knowingly, or unknowingly testing you by throwing some kind of curveball at you to see if you are going to stand up to her or not. Ideally you wan t to diffuse the situation with humor, without getting too upset or letting yourself be walked over. I could have handled some things much better, but in the end I got what I needed - a sincere apology, more respect, affection and a good bonking the next day.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Nader, that's really great! It's huge for her to confide that in you because it means she trusts you.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

nader said:


> I think men are just more insecure and needy and women are naturally tougher and more resilient about things like this. We need admiration and respect from _someone_ in order to be happy. I like to get a pat on the back if my wife has an awesome orgasm, if I do something useful at home without being told, or if I play a facemelting keyboard solo with my band. I might be especially vulnerable this way, more than other men, because I have experienced a good deal of failure and spinning my wheels, career-wise, in life; have watched peers become more successful than me and have never been all that great with the ladies.
> 
> I make sure I let my wife know I appreciate her as well, but I don't think she craves it the same way I do. I think she at least realizes that I am trying not to take her for granted, which is the important thing.


Hi nader ~
Good job on being understanding of your wife's need for some alone time and helping her out with that. A lot of new mothers feel tremendous amounts of guilt about working when they have children, especially babies, and a lot probably try and hold that guilt in and will sometimes lash out. You saw that with her comment to you about it must be nice to have some time to yourself. If you listen carefully during those exchanges, even though they may make you kind of mad, you may really be able to see beneath to the real issue. Keeping yourself calm, cool, and collected is awesome.

I wanted to comment on the post you made above. It's good that you know this about yourself. But, it's always best if you can get to the place within yourself where YOU can validate your self-worth, not have someone else, like your wife doing that. By transferring this to your wife, it sets you both up to fail - simply because she doesn't offer a compliment to you when YOU want it, and then you get mad because she didn't do it - well, how can she possibly win in that situation? Don't set yourself or her up to fail! Learn to pat yourself on the back!!


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> You should have kept your cool. You could either smile and walk away, or you could calmly state that you've done more than enough chores for the day and point her toward the mop. Or, my favorite, agree and amplify. Say, "I meant to hit the wall too. I'll have to work on my aim."
> 
> 
> Don't ask. Inform her that this is a short break to be resumed later.
> ...




Are we training a dog?


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Nader,

I went from your first post and jumped right to the end.

You remember the old saying John Wayne had - "if you go for your gun, you had better intend to use it?"

Well, you mentioned the "D" word and you just added a whole host of insecurity to your wife feeling like your marriage is a sacred union, that you'll divorce her if things start to really get rough sexually.

I would apologize for even bringing it up, no matter how frustrated you were. It sounds like she was trying to connect.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Nader,

You know I have to say. . .I think this is the dark side of TAM forum.

I know you get to see all kinds of break-ups on public display and an ensueing discussion on the justifications of break-ups and so forth and I guess it's kidn of good to know the fundamentals. You hear therapeutic discussions, legal discussions and religious justifications (yes, even or especially from me).

Maybe it just needs to be repeated . . .divorce is. . .the last resort.

Please don't anyone ever, EVER mention it casually to a spouse.

My ex-wife was the first one (I beleive) to mention it to me and honestly, our marriage was never the same afterwards. I always kind of knew she didn't love me as a spouse after that and I was full of insecurity throughout the next 10 years.

The people like me who have gotten divorced over lack of sex (not just that with me - financial expectations were also part and parcel), have literally not had *any* sexual contact usually in years. Or affection. You had both that night. . . .you just didn't get your happy ending.

Bullpucky on the Fitness Test.

She could have countered with, when you said, "People get divorced over things like this all of the time!" :

"Why wait? Let's do it now. Don't threaten me with happiness."

Remember, if you go for your gun, she'll go for hers, Pilgrim.

And kids will be caught in the crossfire.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

There is alot of good advice - I am starting to think she didn't even hear me say the D word .. I may have been mumbling or she may have been half asleep. But we've been doing GREAT since the exchange in the original post, so for this I am grateful. 

I was awoken this morning the way every husband wants to be awoken. We were interrupted again by the baby, but it didn't even phase me this time. We both know we are not going anywhere.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

If you can't talk about the unimaginable then there's no point in trying to avoid it either.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> Are we training a dog?


Don't be ridiculous. In each instance, we have advised nader on how HE should respond to his wife. He obviously can't control her. He can only control himself. But, when he remains in control of himself, and thus of the situation, his wife will respond much more positively to him.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> But, when he remains in control of himself, and thus of the situation, his wife will respond much more positively to him.


Would you bet a month's wages on that?


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

I have and she has.. I've learned alot this week.

But not everyone's wife is as awesome as mine!


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

nader said:


> I have and she has.. I've learned alot this week.
> 
> But not everyone's wife is as awesome as mine!


Good for you! It's nice to have a success story. What would you have done if the cards hadn't fallen out that way?


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

you mean, if my wife weren't awesome, or if I continued to not get my way?

Keep trying, I suppose.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Would you bet a month's wages on that?


Absolutely. Women find unflappable men more attractive than men who are easily frustrated.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Absolutely. Women find unflappable men more attractive than men who are easily frustrated.


Hmm. I was thinking of the situations where:
"more" is only measurable with an electron microscope or through calculus; or where a specific woman won't find a particular man more attractive no matter how unflappable he is.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Hmm. I was thinking of the situations where:
> "more" is only measurable with an electron microscope or through calculus; or where a specific woman won't find a particular man more attractive no matter how unflappable he is.


I always advocate playing the percentages. I'm sure there are a few women out there who find easily aggravated men more attractive than unflappable men. I suppose it's also possible that the OP's wife has a constant, unalterable level of attraction for him so that no self-improvement will increase her attraction to him.

But the odds are otherwise. Most women prefer men who are cool, calm, and collected. Most women prefer men with enough backbone to stand up to them when they're being unreasonable. The attraction most women feel for their husbands is variable. Thus, the OP could probably turn his wife on, or turn her off, by his actions.

The odds are good enough that I would bet a month's wages.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I suppose it's also possible that the OP's wife has a constant, unalterable level of attraction for him so that no self-improvement will increase her attraction to him.


I've seen quite a lot of this - blokes who have gone on fairly serious self-improvement programmes - diets, gym / running, new hobbies, and have got an "Oh, hmm, ah huh" reaction from their wives.

I'm not sure that they don't actually notice, or notice and frankly don't give a sh1t, but it seems to simply wash off a lot of women.


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