# Struggling with love before looks - any advice?



## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

My wife and I are in our mid-thirties. We don't have any children and have been married for about 5 years now. We were living together before we married and we both felt it would be correct to get engaged. After I proposed we were married one year later as she was enthusiastic to do so.

I would say we have a near perfect relationship in respect to our emotional compatibility. We communicate well and share the same sense of humour. We never argue or fight, we enjoy seeing each other content. We are affectionate, considerate towards each other and very supportive regardless of our moods, stress or priorities. I love her very much.

However I wake up each morning unhappy that we married and with the idea that I might one day soon have children with her (we both want them one day). I have been struggling to put my finger on why I am not content and have traced it to a possible reason, of which I am ashamed.

*The problem:*
The reason is she isn't the physical ideal I had in mind before we married. I don't mean she needed to be a model, but just some characteristics which make me desire a women are absent. I have always felt that love should conquer looks and frowned upon my desires as being fickle, shallow minded and counter productive to being content in life. I am quite aware that over time all of us will grow old so I have always put love before looks but I am now struggling. I have never mentioned my concerns to my wife, obviously it would hurt her and hurt me more, but it is an increasing anxiety for me and I cannot seem to overcome it. I simply don't like the idea of having children with her and I am struggling internally to overcome this physical barrier.

For the record, I am definitely not considering being unloyal nor is there any other person on the scene. I am not considering counselling. I am not seeking the high of new relationships or one night sexual encounters, but rather I am worried about the long term relationship if my feelings are as they are now and have been the same for some years. I think some people might phrase this scenario as "He married his best friend", although there is more intimacy. 

I am strongly agiainst the idea of having children then bring the marriage to an end (for any avoidable reason of course) so I am trying to overcome my issues now, today, which is why I am desperately hoping for some input, please!

Thanks for reading.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

A very honest post. Credit for doing so 

The problem with being attracted to someone's looks... is they will never stay the same. It's fleeting. So you will always be chasing something that won't stand still. 

Age, injuries, illness. Your wife might get closer to your ideal with age, exercise. Your perfectly ideal image might not be so perfect after children, age. She might be physically hurt, unable to exercise, who knows what life holds for anyone. 

I will be shot for this... but isn't that "porn" is for? Fantasize about your ideal image. 

Who in this world finds the perfect ideal image in a spouse, and has that exact image for the next 50 years? Those who look at what is right in front of them, and realise it's perfect for them, because it's there for them.

Cheers


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## ItMatters (Jun 6, 2012)

I think it's something deeper than her looks.

You sound like you are GREAT friends. But I don't see any passion in your post and you didn't mention sex with her at all.

I do think love conquers looks (that's why old people >in jest< still love each other) so I think there has got to be something else.

Are you married to your best friend vs. someone you want to have a passionate, intimate, caring/sharing relationship with?


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

deejov said:


> A very honest post. Credit for doing so
> 
> The problem with being attracted to someone's looks... is they will never stay the same. It's fleeting. So you will always be chasing something that won't stand still.
> (cut)


Thanks Deejov for an equally honest post. 
You are right, looks will change and even knowing this seems to not help. I think it doesn't help because I feel I don't have many chances in life (at finding the right partner) so I feel there is some pressure. The changing point will come when I commit to having children as then I will not leave or waiver in my considerations, but until then I feel that I must still consider my needs and happiness (as I do hers every day).


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

ItMatters said:


> I think it's something deeper than her looks.
> 
> You sound like you are GREAT friends. But I don't see any passion in your post and you didn't mention sex with her at all.
> 
> ...


Thanks ItMatters. 
You pick up on something important: passion. There is more love between us than passion. We have spoken about this and we both understand that the sexual passion at the start of relationship changes and matures into affection over time. It wonderful to have been able to discuss this with her. There is still passionate kissing, but I tend to have to initiate anything further and of course that is where my issue above comes in again.

She is LD and I am HD. This is a smaller problem for me, but there is this difference between us. I do feel we are in an intimate, caring/sharing relationship and that is what I value so highly (over looks), however I still feel there is something missing (i.e. strong physical attraction) as if I have overlooked my own short term needs thinking of how important love might be at 70 not at 30-something.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Were you ever physically attracted to her?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Get counseling. You can retrain your brain, you know. This concept of a physical ideal will leave you miserable for your entire life, b/c it will never happen. Whether or not you stay married to her isn't the point; getting a better understanding of what you really want and why you want it. 

Maybe start some MC too, to discuss the sexual relationship. She may have inhibitions about her body or something else keeping her from giving in to her inner vixen. And it can't hurt, can it?


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

norajane said:


> Were you ever physically attracted to her?


Hi Norajane
She has attractive aspects, so yes, but even before we married I was doubting.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

sisters359 said:


> Get counseling. You can retrain your brain, you know. This concept of a physical ideal will leave you miserable for your entire life, b/c it will never happen. Whether or not you stay married to her isn't the point; getting a better understanding of what you really want and why you want it.
> 
> Maybe start some MC too, to discuss the sexual relationship. She may have inhibitions about her body or something else keeping her from giving in to her inner vixen. And it can't hurt, can it?


Thanks for your consideration, Sisters. 
I think the problem is my hang ups on what I want in a women physically. I hate having to admit that but it is lurking concern for me. I don't wish to persuade myself that she will do, as that is what I have been trying to do for some years (I know you aren't suggesting that, but this is one reason I have not considered counselling yet). None the less you are right, it wouldn't hurt and it might help me reassess my priorities  This thread is the first time I have found courage to speak out on it.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Is there any way to increase the 'sexy factor' with your wife?

What I mean is, there are many of us who aren't especially pretty or beautiful. We may have some extra pounds or our breasts or butts or noses whatever aren't ideal.  But sexy comes from the inside - it's an attitude and the way we carry ourselves and feel about ourselves and that makes us "hot" to our partners.

Maybe if you compliment those "attractive aspects" in her, she will feel more confident and it will come out in her behavior with you and she'll highlight those aspects more often, which will translate into you seeing her as sexy even if she isn't your physical ideal. She probably realizes that you aren't really into her, and that might make her feel less sexy, which only makes her act less sexy which turns into a vicious circle of non-sexiness.

I don't know if that makes any sense.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

norajane said:


> Is there any way to increase the 'sexy factor' with your wife?
> 
> What I mean is, there are many of us who aren't especially pretty or beautiful. We may have some extra pounds or our breasts or butts or noses whatever aren't ideal. But sexy comes from the inside - it's an attitude and the way we carry ourselves and feel about ourselves and that makes us "hot" to our partners.
> 
> ...


Hello Norajane
That does make sense. I hadn't seen that vicious circle of non-sexiness before now and I expect she is aware of my tastes even if I have not verbalised them. I take care not to offend her self-confidence and do tell her she is beautiful (she is a beautiful person and I am lucky). I will see if I can put your advise into action and see how it goes  Thank you.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I agree that if she knows she is not your physical "ideal," and you do not make a point of telling her how hot and sexy she is, she will know you do not think it, and that will make her feel unattractive and inhibit her drive.

Don't say anything that isn't true, but start with something you know you LOVE to do and make a point of saying how much you enjoy doing that--and add little things as time passes. Also, think more about what you HAVE and less about what you are missing--for example, if you fantasize about perfect breasts but your wife has a big tush, imagine what you could do with that ass--get yourself excited about it, and then get her excited by doing it. And be sure you are letting her know once you are ready to try something new: "Hon, I've been thinking about how hot it would be to [do whatever to her]; could we try it?" Or just go for it while saying to her, "I've been thinking about doing this to you..." 

But yes, counseling is a good idea, and not having kids is a good idea, too. A very good, excellent, don't-change-your-mind-about-it good idea (that is, don't change your mind unless you feel more attracted to her).


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## ItMatters (Jun 6, 2012)

So what is your 'ideal' then? Are you hoping for a 22yo, 5'6, buxom brunette babe, with flowing hair and nary a stretch mark? 

Are you likely to be able to attract your 'ideal'? 

I see too many out of shape. mid-age guys think some hot chickie is going to think they are 'all that'.

Is your ideal realistic and is your ability to attact your ideal realistic, too?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> But yes, counseling is a good idea, and not having kids is a good idea, too. A very good, excellent, don't-change-your-mind-about-it good idea (that is, don't change your mind unless you feel more attracted to her).


I agree they shouldn't have kids if he isn't sure he even wants to stay with her.

But, wow, what a no-win situation for his wife. She went into this marriage 5 years ago believing they would have kids one day, and he's holding off because he isn't sure he's want to be with her. She's already in her mid-30's and can't wait much longer to start having children if she's going to have them. I hope he figures it out soon, because if he's thinking divorce, she will need to start over with someone else very soon if she ever wants children of her own.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ItMatters said:


> So what is your 'ideal' then? Are you hoping for a 22yo, 5'6, buxom brunette babe, with flowing hair and nary a stretch mark?
> 
> Are you likely to be able to attract your 'ideal'?
> 
> ...


And how realistic is it that his ideal woman won't change physically after having children, or with age? What then?


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Whenever I read posts like the OP's, I wonder why they married the person they did. Did you think the physical attraction which wasn't strong to begin with would develop in time? 

You haven't told us exactly where your wife falls short in terms of your ideal and her looks, but is it possible for her to get to that ideal? Are the changes she could make, assuming she's willing, something within her control? For example, maybe you want curlier hair (she could curl her hair), a slimmer body (she could lose some weight), better clothing, makeup? Or is the ideal so far out of her reach, such as she needs to be much taller, be of a different ethnicity, needs to be younger, etc?

The man I dated before I met my husband was a very nice person. We were compatible in several areas, but he was definitely not my physical ideal or my "type". We were great friends. We got along well. However, he just didn't do it for me that way and even though I was young, I knew it would be a mistake to enter into anything permanent with him. When I met my husband on the other hand, he not only turned out to have a very compatible personality with mine, but he's exactly my physical type. Even after all these years, I still get turned on by looking at him. A couple of days doesn't go by without me telling him how much I like the way he looks.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

norajane said:


> I agree they shouldn't have kids if he isn't sure he even wants to stay with her.
> 
> But, wow, what a no-win situation for his wife. She went into this marriage 5 years ago believing they would have kids one day, and he's holding off because he isn't sure he's want to be with her. She's already in her mid-30's and can't wait much longer to start having children if she's going to have them. I hope he figures it out soon, because if he's thinking divorce, she will need to start over with someone else very soon if she ever wants children of her own.


hi Norajane
Our age is a concern for me too. It isn't exactly like the above (I appreciate your view). I would have had children years ago (I am not the one delaying it). This point of posting really was to convince me I did the right thing (not to find a reason to leave her). 

Thanks for your continued interest


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> Even after all these years, I still get turned on by looking at him. A couple of days doesn't go by without me telling him how much I like the way he looks.


Hi Coffee Amore
The quote above is how I wish to feel, that is my 'ideal'. Right now I would ideally like thinner arms and legs, a little more shapely. I know when we are 60 we will not be the same shapely 30 somethings.

God, I feel awful even typing this. The point is not to change her, I never want to do that. The point is that I cannot seem to be satisfied, it is an inner battle. The main reason we got engaged in the first place was love, I felt that my love would conquer my doubts.

Thanks for your reply.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Henri said:


> However I wake up each morning unhappy that we married and with the idea that I might one day soon have children with her (we both want them one day). I have been struggling to put my finger on why I am not content and have traced it to a possible reason, of which I am ashamed.
> 
> *The problem:*
> *The reason is she isn't the physical ideal I had in mind before we married.* I don't mean she needed to be a model, but just some characteristics which make me desire a women are absent.


And yet, you married her anyway.

WOW.

Do her a favor and let her go. Wasting time, her life.

You may not fit her ideal either of Brad Pitt but hey she prob married you cause she loved you, not for that reason.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Coffee Amore said:


> Whenever I read posts like the OP's, I wonder why they married the person they did.


:iagree:

Personally I think it's really fcked up to marry someone you're not all that into. 

It's a farce. A lie. Stealing. It's basically convincing someone that you love them on false pretense.

Ick!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Henri said:


> Hi Norajane
> She has attractive aspects, so yes, but even before we married I was doubting.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Your ending sentence was a relief.

DON'T HAVE KIDS

the last thing you need to do is be saddled with children when you have a mid-life crisis at 48...that's when people tend to go "really shallow"

Self-Honesty is never wrong.

Is this very shallow? Yes

Is this very human? Yes

Is this something you should work to overcome? Entirely a personal decision

Fernanado Pessosa wrote:

_"We never love other people. We love ourselves through other people."_

Not very romantic, but I've found it pretty 'bang on' mostly

So I have to ask:

How do you feel about how you yourself look now? How have you felt about your appearance throughout your life?

Are you picky and judgmental of your own physical flaws...and so too, the physical flaws of others?

Do you think you struggle/struggled with inner insecurity...is your valuation of yourself heavily dependent on how you feel you look physically ?

If the answer to these questions is "yes"...then I would say that that lends more credence to this concept...and so: the "physically ideal" spouse would allow you to* love yourself* more, through your relationship with them

And again, if "yes" then that's a very internal issue. So you'd have to somehow successfully address/shift this viewpoint in yourself before you could even begin to "accept" your wife's looks.

Just *knowing* that should put "love before looks" won't cut it...you'll have to really *feel* this within your being

Of course, if your answer is "No"...and you have great self-esteem, are positively certain of your fabulous inner and outer beauty and are genuinely loving life and your place in it...then you just blew my poetic quote out of the water and I have no idea what advice to give you.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Henri said:


> Thanks Deejov for an equally honest post.
> You are right, looks will change and even knowing this seems to not help. I think it doesn't help because I feel I don't have many chances in life (at finding the right partner) so I feel there is some pressure. The changing point will come when I commit to having children as then I will not leave or waiver in my considerations, but until then I feel that I must still consider my needs and happiness (as I do hers every day).


I agree with a previous poster who mentioned passion.

I don't think looks or love is the issue. I think what you lack is passion. 

Passion--thinking, dreaming about someone. Can't wait to be in their presence, the mere thought of them can make you weak in the knees, their touch sends you over the edge. 

I know a lot of people will snicker and think to themselves, that's for kids, that's what happens when you first meet who you think is the one, but it fades, etc.

Not for everyone. 29 years married in January and I still have PASSION for my husband--his touch still makes me weak in the knees and I still can't wait to get home to see him every day--EVEN with all our issues.

Maybe all that's missing is passion.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> And yet, you married her anyway.
> 
> WOW.
> 
> ...


Hello
My wife makes me feel like Brad Pitt. That is why she is so wonderful and I love her. 

Kindly read the whole thread. The thread isn't about why we married, it is about how to see past imperfections and appreciate completely what we have. I am also very conscious that the issue is in my mind which is why I want love to conquer.

There are some helpful replies above which I am focusing on. Thanks all! :smthumbup:


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

IndiaInk said:


> Your ending sentence was a relief.
> 
> DON'T HAVE KIDS
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot IndiaInk,
This is a new way to look at solving the dilemma. I answered 'yes' to the questions, so I will focus on solving them now. I can see some direction from your help. 

It is shallow and feels wrong but it is human. So thanks for pointing that out. This is why I am posting here, because I want the relationship to continue, I would like to rid myself of this shallow human tendency. Those who don't have it are lucky, those who suffer it have my compassion.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I agree with a previous poster who mentioned passion.
> 
> I don't think looks or love is the issue. I think what you lack is passion.
> 
> ...


Hello MarriedWifeInLove
I am pleased for you and your husband. You are right, there isn't much passion in life at the moment here (I won't go into the details  ) and this I think is adding confusion and pressure which was not so important before. Thank you, I will look into this!


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## Sadfather (Jul 3, 2012)

You need to do what's best for the both of you. Tell her the truth and both of you go your separate ways before you end up hating each other and causing so much pain that it will never be something you will both overcome. Be real with her and yourself and stop it before someone really gets hurt or worse, she gets pregnant and a poor child is thrown in the mix.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

Sadfather said:


> You need to do what's best for the both of you. Tell her the truth and both of you go your separate ways before you end up hating each other and causing so much pain that it will never be something you will both overcome. Be real with her and yourself and stop it before someone really gets hurt or worse, she gets pregnant and a poor child is thrown in the mix.


Thanks for your input!
Rest assured, I will do all I can to never let a child undergo suffering, which is why I am facing my shame and opening up any underlying issues now, before pregnancy. I don't want to separate from her, not just for looks, I know that will lead to further futile suffering. What I hope to do is stop my mental unhappiness, which is caused by my mind seeing the imperfections before the perfections. My wife has many good qualities and I love her.

I will take your advice and I will speak to her on some of the issues above e.g. passion, improving my self love, becoming slimmer/healthier is always good too for love too. I will focus on the good parts and give them emphasis. These are things others have suggested and I think they are super!.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Henri said:


> Hello
> My wife makes me feel like Brad Pitt. That is why she is so wonderful and I love her.
> 
> Kindly read the whole thread. The thread isn't about why we married, it is about how to see past imperfections and appreciate completely what we have. I am also very conscious that the issue is in my mind which is why I want love to conquer.
> ...


Henri,

I think I understand what you are trying to say, and the guilt that you feel as a result. I think it is great to be so honest about your feelings, but there are natural things that we can do, some of which have already been discussed.

You mentioned that your wife makes you feel like Brad Pitt. Not sure if this implies a dynamic that used to exist in my marriage, but I'll explain just in case. My wife doubted her beauty, and made this a really big deal in our early relationship. I went to a college that had this wierd tradition of women voting for the alpha male, and it really seemed to undermine my wife's confidence that I was chosen for a couple of years. What she couldn't see, and I tried to tell her all the time, was that there were many things that added up to make her the most stunningly beautiful woman I had ever met. Yes, she had feature flaws, but I was blind to them. The lack of self confidence in her beauty and womanhood, I think, and her implication that I should have sought better, could easily undermine us if passion within the relationship was missing.

I think that you really have to open yourself to really understanding passion, and all it implies. When you are passionate about a person, you find beauty in so much more than the visual. Their curious habits, tendencies, and individual traits begin to make you not even think on a superficial level in considering her beauty. Help her to be able to smile when you are together, to laugh, and reveal the side of her that she is too afraid to expose. Beauty that exists can be drawn out through creating a time together where she feels safe to share, and even flaunt her positive traits to their best advantage. My wife knows that there are certain features about her that I'm crazy about. Normally, she would be too shy to use them to advantage in the way she dresses, sits or her posturing. Passion includes the way you draw this out of a person.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

I often wonder if my husband feels the same way. I use to run 36 miles a week before the onset of my neck injury which happened in my mid 30's. I can merely bike a few minutes each day unless the pain is unbearable, then I'm stuck in bed.:/. Sometimes for weeks if I've overdid it by pushing my activity limit. I've put on a bit of weight, but I did lose some once I cut my calories to roughly 900 a day. 

My husband is super thin and he's a triathlete. He has raced in a few ironmans and will keep going until his body no longer will let him. 

I'm not ignorant. I know my husband notices. He doesn't say anything about my weight gain and I don't think he ever will. It really puts a damper on my self esteem. When I worked out, I had a lot more confidence in myself. I didn't feel the need to "hide" any parts of my body. I'm trying to get my confidence back.

I highly doubt I'll ever bring up this conversation with my husband. I'll keep my insecurities to myself. Posts like this do confirm that he most likely puts thought into my ever so changing body. I'm nearly 40 and my metabolism has naturally slowed down. 

My husband would not leave me either. He truly loves me and has put my needs before his own these past 12 years. He's a wonderful husband and a fantastic father.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

You advice does help, Halien, I had not considered passion as being so key in a relationship before starting this topic to question myself. Some people tend to get caught up in work, hobbies and ideas too much, and I can easily fall into that trap. 

Marriage felt like a one way street for me in that when I married I felt that it was the end of my youth and my freedom. What I probably felt was that it was the end of my passion but I couldn't pin point it as that. I take care not to let my wife become the scapegoat for that problem. I am aware she is not the problem but for some reason I saw marriage as 'the end' but couldn't put my finger on what ended; I thought it was youth and I felt quite sad for a while. Now I see I let my passion dwindle and from the posts above I am beginning to learn that passion shouldn't need to end in marriage, but rather add to fuelling it.

Thank you, Halien!


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> I often wonder if my husband feels the same way. ...
> 
> I highly doubt I'll ever bring up this conversation with my husband. I'll keep my insecurities to myself. Posts like this do confirm that he most likely puts thought into my ever so changing body. I'm nearly 40 and my metabolism has naturally slowed down.
> 
> My husband would not leave me either. He truly loves me and has put my needs before his own these past 12 years. He's a wonderful husband and a fantastic father.


Hello I'mInLoveWithMyHubby
Thank you for sharing your story. It helps to know. Your husband sounds wonderful and understanding. Our insecurities cannot always be expressed directly it seems, they have to incubate and in return that helps us to communicate them or overcome them, it seems to me.

The ideas I express here may never have crossed your husbands mind. I have read posts and hear people express unwavering love and attraction for their partners and there should be no reason to doubt your husband considering your situation your describe. I tend to be a doubter by nature it seems, which is why I want to stop it now.


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## RDL (Feb 10, 2012)

Hello Henry,

Thank you for the honest post. Please be advised that what you are feeling is quite normal given the circumstances.

Your hardwired brain circuitry is causing it. You are silently aware of your mating rating and that of your partner. Your brain qualifies mating rating in women by looking for youth, health and symmetry. Unfortunately your wife is rated lower than you rate yourself. Your rating primarily comes from your capacity and confidence in gathering resources. 

Because of this gap your brain feels that you are getting a bad deal and that you should not procreate with her. That does not necessarily mean that your brain is right. It is acting after all on thousands of years old circuitry. It does mean that it won't leave you alone and the situation needs to be addressed.

Please read the book *Allan Pease - Why men need sex and women want love* for a very good detailed explanation of what is going on with you. 

Finally in the context of your current situation your brain will be happy with your partner if it perceives a higher mating rating in her and there are ways to do that detailed in the book above. 

Other than that leaving is the next option.


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

If you dislike her thick legs and arms you're not even going to want to touch her during and after a pregnancy. Is she thick due to being overweight? Or just a different body shape? If its due to weight does shd take any interst in loosing the weight or even toning up? I know when I'm at my physical best I exude confidence which always channels through to the bedroom  leading to more passion as well.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

Unhappy2011 said:


> Wow....I would have to answer yes to those questions.
> 
> And though I don't necessarily like the conclusion, I somewhat welcome it because it does seem spot on, for me at least.
> 
> ...


Hi Unhappy2011
That is useful to know that you are or were in a similar situation with those questions. Halien and others above have added that passion can be key to helping a relationship overcome the imperfections (my words). Like you I wondered if I have compatibility issues, but I haven't been able to reduce it to a single outstanding issue so far which is why I wonder if it is physical in my first post.

Did you find a partner with whom you have found that you have not felt suffocated?

I wonder too if my dissatisfaction is a part of my personality. It certainly seems it would be wroth while addressing my self-esteem and other areas as Indiaink has helped me to see.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

FreedomCorp said:


> Hello Henry,
> 
> Thank you for the honest post. Please be advised that what you are feeling is quite normal given the circumstances.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot, that does make sense! I feel that it is a battle of the brain, one parts wants 'more' the other part knows that it shouldn't be necessary and won't necessarily lead to more happiness. 
I will look into buying the book; I guess it goes into detail on that topic you outline above? Thanks for the reply.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

MrsOldNews said:


> If you dislike her thick legs and arms you're not even going to want to touch her during and after a pregnancy. Is she thick due to being overweight? Or just a different body shape? If its due to weight does shd take any interst in loosing the weight or even toning up? I know when I'm at my physical best I exude confidence which always channels through to the bedroom  leading to more passion as well.


Hello MrsOldNews
Good questions. She believes they are genetically 'fat'. She isn't very much interested in fitness. I read online that some women have this due to excess calories (obviously really) but it sounds like it isn't just genetic. She isn't that fat in other places. She tends to talk about it a lot, so I guess it is a concern for her too. 

It seems these aspects didn't bother me so much as the start but I seem to find my attention falls on that before falling on her 'perfections'. So I am trying to make a change in that respect myself. I think exercise would help with confidence as you say.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Fitness, and exercise, doesn't have to mean going to the gym 5 days a week. I find I have the best success in the summer time when I do a lot more walking, and bike riding, and swimming because it's fun.

Maybe you two could take up a couple of hobbies together. Biking can be a lot of fun in the right environment - are there any biking trails near your home or within a short drive? Biking is great for legs! Start a new tradition of going for walks after dinner. My parents (in their 60's) started doing this after they moved to a neighborhood with sidewalks, and now they walk 5 or 6 miles a day and are in great health. Is there a community pool nearby? Or a beach? Swimming is great for arm muscles, and walking on sand is a great workout for legs.

Arms and legs actually respond quite quickly to exercise, especially weight bearing exercise or anything that really works the muscles.

Those activities can bring you closer together, increases the intimacy and yes, passion, too. There's nothing like wet hugs and kisses in the water. Plus the physical activity releases endorphins, which makes people feel better and more passionate, IME.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Henri, I for one understand exactly what you are going through. My now ex W wasn't my perfect ideal either, but she has lots of nice features, a great outgoing personality and I had no problems falling in love with her. There was always this part in me that said she is "good enough" and that resulted in both positives and negatives. Funny thing is no matter what my weight was, hers was ALWAYS 10 pounds more, and pretty much exactly the time she says she checked out of the marriage she started to lose weight. At first I didn't find her weight loss endearing, she was going to great lengths to improve her image, losing weight, wearing sexy clothes. After I found out about affair I lost all interest ever since, however a year later after our divorce and she physically looks better than I've ever seen her... if she'd have put that kinda effort into herself when she was married to me it definitely would have helped keep the spark alive and I would have wanted to pursue her.

Now I'm single again I have a few self-limiting beliefs on this and have come to realize it is not likely to attract my perfect ideal because the idea of "sex rank" is a real thing, my "ideal" as any guy's in terms of physical attraction is a perfect 10, doesn't mean I expect that or even really want that, but will still always feel like anything less than my own personal threshold will always be a bit of a compromise in that way (and that doesn't mean a bad thing).

As for me, I have no clue what my own rank is but I've painfully learned that I must be lower than how I have always perceived myself. I find it sad that there is this classification system, and I know there are ways I can improve myself, but I know there will always be more sexually attractive guys out there better at competing for the higher ranking females.

Now at what point then, in our mate's attractiveness, do we feel like we are settling? For me I don't think I will know that answer until I have confidence at my own view of myself. The other thing I'm finding is that our physical attraction truly can be influenced by other factors it really is not just looks, and I think that is part of what successful romance overcomes, romance to me, is the ability to change each others perceptions and convince ourselves how blessed we are with the one we've connected too, when the passion is there he will think she is the most gorgeous woman alive, and she will think he is the kindest soul on the planet.

So if I were you, I'd build your own confidence back up, work on yourself and have her pursue you a little more (turn down the temp if you have to, by focussing on other things you like: golfing? fishing? etc). If there are things about her she can change to improve your attraction, then tell her! When she asks your opinion on something be honest, share your preferences don't expect her to guess. If you think she is eating unhealthy then take the lead in planning the menu and doing the cooking, don't enable her to be a couch potato. At some point if she refuses to improve herself share my story about my ex and how it will become a dealbreaker. And if its things she has no ability to change then its you that will have to.


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## 1writer (Jul 11, 2012)

Are you sure it's her, or is the idea of children, what you have a problem with? I'm not sure how a therapist would explain it, but sometimes, your mind can sort of play tricks and make something, which is really irrelevant, and turn it into such an issue that you are convinced. For example, you really want to buy a house, but you just can't stand the water fountain being here instead of there, when in reality, you're scared to death of undertaking such a massive mortgage. I hope that makes sense. So, your mind has you convinced that it's just the water fountain bugging you. In reality, the fountain has nothing to do with it. 

Counseling and, if it's a workout issue, volunteer to work out with her. Go to the gym together or something like that. Many people don't like to hear it, but your spouse is often a reflection of you.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Some women, no matter how otherwise thin and shapely, or how they workout, suffer from indeed, "cankles" syndrome. Some women have thicker arms. Sometimes, people can have parts of their body that are just - out of sync with the rest of them. Think about people who have - unusually large hands or feet for the size of their body. 

I think reading online about "what causes thick arms" likely isn't the best solution, as that's at best a guess, and worst just produces the feeling that it's her fault as it's easily correctable. Only a personal trainer/doctor is likely really equipped to provide specific advise on her situation. 

But the issue here is - as pointed out by others, if you ultimately want to have children with her, her suddenly becoming interested in exercise won't remove the very real possibility this problem would just return or get worse when she is pregnant, as edema is a very prevalent pregnancy syndrome. 

And - there's no guarantee another woman who started off "more shapely" might have the same issue, if you would ultimately want a family with her. Some women's feet and legs get bigger with pregnancy, and don't always go back to what they were, even with exercise. 

So - I think you need to consider either reading some of the books that people suggest, or trying counseling.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Unhappy2011 said:


> Wow....I would have to answer yes to those questions.
> 
> And though I don't necessarily like the conclusion, I somewhat welcome it because it does seem spot on, for me at least.
> 
> ...


I know right?

That hit me hard too, and didn't like this conclusion either...but if you start thinking about that statement: *"we love ourselves through other people"*...and applying it to various relationship problems...you'll see that it tends to be right, time and time again.

In the end: Everything comes back to our own *self-fixated *selves...and we can't help it...because WE are the *only* person who lives in our head

This is why people tend to lose their "attraction" to a spouse who loves them too much, who becomes too clingy, in other words, somehow...too pathetic

When one person in a relationship is the "desperate" one...the one who needs _the other person_ *more than* that _other person_ needs them...it's harder to "feel the high" of *loving yourself* through that other person...because they have _fallen from their pedestal_ and tend to sort of lose "some of their value".

And this a very rotten sort of mentality...and we all know we should aspire to a better sort of love than this...but, in the end, it's easier said than done...

Unless of course, you've managed to go through life always "loving and accepting yourself" naturally and independent of what the rest of the world may think of you...

For most of us though...our self-esteem is greatly tied to what we imagine other people think of us.

That's why, in a way, romantic love and attraction, is a "less noble" love than the kind people have for their children which is far more unconditional...(not that the same concept doesn't apply in that case too...think about it: your children's successes are your successes...still you don't need to be "attracted" to your children...and it's attraction that tends to be tricky to maintain)

That said, I figure just being aware of this stuff, acknowledging that this how we operate...and that this is why our feelings for another can inexplicably diminish...counts for something...

If we're ever able to evolve into becoming better people...and loving others better...I think this is the place from which most of us have to start.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

Lon said:


> Henri, I for one understand exactly what you are going through. ...


Thanks a lot Lon, your post captures the feelings well. I am pleased you were able to share your experiences as I have wondered if others felt this way. Thanks a lot!


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

1writer said:


> Are you sure it's her, or is the idea of children, what you have a problem with? I'm not sure how a therapist would explain it, but sometimes, your mind can sort of play tricks and make something, which is really irrelevant, and turn it into such an issue that you are convinced. For example, you really want to buy a house, but you just can't stand the water fountain being here instead of there, when in reality, you're scared to death of undertaking such a massive mortgage. I hope that makes sense. So, your mind has you convinced that it's just the water fountain bugging you. In reality, the fountain has nothing to do with it.
> 
> Counseling and, if it's a workout issue, volunteer to work out with her. Go to the gym together or something like that. Many people don't like to hear it, but your spouse is often a reflection of you.


Hi 1Writer
Thanks for your input. I think there are more variables than I can capture in a forum and it would be good to speak to someone who has done some research into this and can cover most of the variables. I think a part of it is that some men spend most of their youth looking for women (a mate) and it is a real change in direction to marry and consider becoming a father. It is like you have to change a total outlook on life. I am not suggesting men aren't loyal, but rather than the role changes dramatically and with it our minds needs to change and this takes longer... this is pretty much what I feel I am addressing in one way.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

IndiaInk said:


> I know right?
> 
> That hit me hard too, and didn't like this conclusion either...


Hi IndiaInk
I am glad you keep expanding on this, specifically in your reply to Unhappy2011, it is helpful and you are right, we do tend to project or see ourselves through others!


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

norajane said:


> ...
> Those activities can bring you closer together, increases the intimacy and yes, passion, too. There's nothing like wet hugs and kisses in the water. Plus the physical activity releases endorphins, which makes people feel better and more passionate, IME.


Great ideas, we are going to start running together (gently at first) and we agreed this week to diet together (or at least watch what we eat. Thanks for your suggestions, Norajane!


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> ....
> But the issue here is - as pointed out by others, if you ultimately want to have children with her, her suddenly becoming interested in exercise won't remove the very real possibility this problem would just return or get worse when she is pregnant, as edema is a very prevalent pregnancy syndrome.
> 
> And - there's no guarantee another woman who started off "more shapely" might have the same issue, if you would ultimately want a family with her. Some women's feet and legs get bigger with pregnancy, and don't always go back to what they were, even with exercise. ....


Hi Starstarfish, thanks for your input. I didn't know that about pregnant women, it is useful to know!

I wonder if a relationship changes after pregnancy, do looks still matter as much after having children? I wonder if the child becomes the focus of attention and suddenly the dynamics change between the couple and there is more acceptance of being in a relationship due to being a parent?

I guess not from some posts here, there are those still going through problems even with children. But I wonder if the children change people's perspectives none the less.


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## Henri (Jun 30, 2012)

*Everyone, Thanks so much for your compassion and advice. It has helped me* :smthumbup:

There is a lot to help me now, so I may not reply to this thread so often or even again. I will focus on the next step now: application and improvement. 

*Thank you!*


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> I guess not from some posts here, there are those still going through problems even with children. But I wonder if the children change people's perspectives none the less.


I think it does, a bit. You start seeing your wife as the mother of your child instead of just "hot or not". When you see what she goes through in order to bring your child into the world, and when you fall in love with that child, your perspective on her as a woman is enriched. The figure changes become "(baby) battle scars" rather than figure flaws.


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