# Not Forgiving



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Maybe my situation is an anomaly. But,despite disliking my XW, and not forgiving her, my life seems to be pretty good. I am doing well financially,have a nice,good looking girlfriend,good relationships with my kids,great travel,good relationships with my ex-in-laws.
Is it possible that the whole corroiveness of not forgiving spiel is just a cliche that sounds good but has no real substance?
I mean,my life is so much more pleasant than it had been married to my XW,yet I still think of her as scum.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

IMO You don't forgive her for HER benefit, you forgive her for YOUR benefit. It is one way to move on, even with divorce. IMO you should work towards having indifferent feelings (not negative feelings) towards her and by forgiving her, it will help you achieve that.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> IMO You don't forgive her for HER benefit, you forgive her for YOUR benefit. It is one way to move on, even with divorce. IMO you should work towards have indifferent feelings (not negative feelings) towards her and by forgiving her, it will help you achieve that.


I understand,but what benefit could I derive? I am happy,at peace,enjoying life etc.
Are there any studies re one benefitting from forgiving,or is it something folks just say because it sounds good and all evolved etc.?


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Maxo said:


> I understand,but what benefit could I derive? I am happy,at peace,enjoying life etc.
> Are there any studies re one benefitting from forgiving,or is it something folks just say because it sounds good and all evolved etc.?


If you found what works for you, great. My brother divorced his cheating wife and 10 years later still has extremely hatred for her. He has not found the peace that you have. 

Every person is different.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Exactly. Yet,it seems the advocacy for forgiveness as a prerequisite for happiness itreats folks as the same.
Ever wonder if those people who survived Auschwitz needed to forgive their tormentors in order to go on enjoying life?
If someone intentionally killed one of your loved ones,does forgiving tbat person diminish your suffering?


----------



## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

Forgiveness is not necessary and so long as negative thoughts aren't consuming you, I wouldn't spend much effort trying to get there.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Ripper said:


> Forgiveness is not necessary and so long as negative thoughts aren't consuming you, I wouldn't spend much effort trying to get there.



For a while,whenever I would have to hit a hard draw,say around a tree,all I would have to do was think of my XW's serial cheating. 
It worked really well. 
Could not come up with any thought to hit a fade and had to rely on set up and mechanics.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Maxo said:


> I am doing well financially,have a nice,good looking girlfriend,good relationships with my kids,great travel,good relationships with my ex-in-laws.


So what are you really complaining about? What kind of shape would you be in if she'd kept in hidden a few more years while you underwrote her activities. Thank her for saving you from additional problems.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

ThePheonix said:


> So what are you really complaining about? What kind of shape would you be in if she'd kept in hidden a few more years while you underwrote her activities. Thank her for saving you from additional problems.


No complaints,just observations. I did,in fact,thank the OM.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I've always looked at forgiveness in one way. It sets you free.

If you don't forgive, you are allowing that person space in your head, space in your heart, you're allowing any negativity that stems from how you feel about that person to take up residence inside you.

If you are happy without forgiving - that's great. But in my opinion, when you forgive - you set yourself free from the chains. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Maxo said:


> I did,in fact,thank the OM.


Now that's righteous.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

ThePheonix said:


> Now that's righteous.


He was shocked. I shook his hand an said " Thank you. You have relieved me of a great burden."

Guess he found out about a year later when she started cheating on him with a married guy.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

I've never believed in the power of forgiveness. I think it's promoted by religion as something to aspire to, but in the grand scheme of things, I find it pointless.

To me, there is no forgiveness when there is no remorse. That absolutely has to come first. If there's no sincere remorse and strong effort to make amends from the person who wronged you, how can you absolve them of responsibility for what they did?

People are going to wrong you, sometimes severely. The best course of action is to take all the necessary steps to distance yourself from the possibility of a repetition. That may be divorce, that may be ending a friendship, it may be taking legal action.

Now, if there IS remorse that's another story and may be dealt with quite differently. But if there isn't, why would you waste your own emotional energy pretending you got it?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Forgiveness is the simplest way to move on to a positive future....but it isn't the ONLY way. I was indifferent to my ex wife for 2 1/2 years after our divorce. In fact , I didn't know nor care about her in the slightest. 
Plus, your opinion of your ex isn't the same thing as forgiveness. I have a very poor opinion of Okra, but that doesn't mean I want it to cease to exist, or prevent others from enjoying it. I also feel that forgiveness, has as much to do with proximity as it does anything else. If you are still interacting with your ex, It is a lot easier if there is less drama or Angst. My opinion has always been to make it as drama-free and as neutral as possible.


----------



## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Eff forgiveness. Stuff it.

If you wrong me and knowingly wrong me (magnitude of wronging obviously taken into account) then that's it. I don't have to forgive but I will move on.

You're life is great, got a great GF, you take the time to appreciate how good life can really be, but I guess if anyone cheats on you again, they'll get the hook swiftly.

Forgiveness is overrated. Works for some, but if you don't forgive you're not going to hell either.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Semantics and moral superiority in my book. I have had many people try to explain forgiveness and until they throw religion in the mix, it tends to be exactly the same as detaching and indifference. Honestly, on a totally different level, I think forgiveness is more for the other person than you. So, I have no problem with people not fogiving someone. It's not by job to absolve you of your guilt, you either move on without forgiveness or let it eat you up.


----------



## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

A non issue to me. I'll let God take care of it: whoever said its for the person being forgiven i agree. But you always hear it's for the person forgiving. If you're not bitter, resentful or throw it in their face who cares?


----------



## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

Forgiveness is overrated. You can go on living a normal healthy life without ever forgiving someone. 


C


----------



## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

I think part of this is your definition of forgiveness. To me this does not mean that you condone, accept or forget what they have done, they still are accountable for their actions. It also does not mean that you are now buddies or hang out together. To me it is not letting what they have done control you. Some people can’t get beyond these thoughts and it consumes them, this is destructive behavior. When my ex left me I was very sad, this changed to anger and then eventually I gave her no thought whatsoever. My father asked me a few years after we divorce, “whatever happened to her”? I told him that I didn’t have the vaguest idea and you don’t know how happy that makes me. There was a slight pause and then we both broke out laughing. The fact is that she was unhappy with herself and though she traded in men on a regular basis, it had nothing to do with them. I now hope that she finds happiness in her life, just as I do for all mankind. To me, that is forgiveness. It takes time, but you will get there.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Maxo said:


> No complaints,just observations. I did,in fact,thank the OM.


You thanked the other man? *Not labeling him as the POSOM, as I would have, speaks volumes.*

A huge load the man relieved you of. He did you a favor. He was the *Exorcist.* He rid you of your *She-Demon.
*
For YOU, He was Atlas, the giant that carries the World's woes [of mere mortals] on his shoulders. He transferred your "skank" luggage from your scourged back to his expansive back. *Nah...he sucked*..he wanted your wifes genitals and whatever other baubles she offered. What man would want a women who cheated on her husband? Why would he think she was special? Dog behavior...little head controlling a boggle-head on [this OM] man's shoulders.

I see this "outcome" as righteous. Many will toot a just Karma for you. 

I think your "worth" in the eyes of "That" power that keeps score in these things placed your pawn on a better place on the chess board..maybe as atonement?

*Do not tempt Fate, or the Creator.* Accept your new vantage point and continue to earn the good graces that brought you out of the desert.

You keeping her image as Skank? This shows her hand is still clutching your beating heart. 

You value vows and honor. She did not. Therefore the hatred still lingers on your back step, in the shadows, in the dead of your night-mares. 

Wounds heal, even large painful gashes.

But scar tissue forms, never replicating the old skin. Nothing can replace the old in the exact format , save old memories that plop out at the most inopportune moment.

I have said many times, Intellectual forgiveness comes easier. Emotional forgiveness may never arrive for dinner. Neither [of these] have visited your carved-out space in this life.

If you cannot get past your hatred, then roll in it, as a just-washed Canine rolls in clovered grass or a Tom Cat in a catnip patch.

*Be grateful, never smug......my friend.*


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Is it possible that the whole corroiveness of not forgiving spiel is just a cliche that sounds good but has no real substance?
> .


Yep. It is a bunch of crap. 

What is corrosive is when you don't let go emotionally and rise above the pain of what some moronic, selfish ex-spouse did to you. 

You can rise above it without forgiveness.


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Maxo said:


> No complaints,just observations. I did,in fact,thank the OM.


Good. It set you free. You are so much better off Maxo


----------



## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

I am hung up on this one topic...I don't feel i need to forgive my W affair in order to successful R. However I did screw up once in life too (nothing to do with marriage) and got a big break and was forgiven, I do recall how badly I felt the need to be forgiven, to get another chance, and show how I would never do that again. So I can feel and relate to how a remorseful person might deserve forgiveness and a 2nd chance.....
So OP you don't have to forgive anything, is totally your choice, but it's likely you will make mistakes in life and that you might desire forgiveness at such point, just my 2 cents 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I am hung up on this one topic...I don't feel i need to forgive my W affair in order to successful R. However I did screw up once in life too (nothing to do with marriage) and got a big break and was forgiven, I do recall how badly I felt the need to be forgiven, to get another chance, and show how I would never do that again. So I can feel and relate to how a remorseful person might deserve forgiveness and a 2nd chance.....
> So OP you don't have to forgive anything, is totally your choice, but it's likely you will make mistakes in life and that you might desire forgiveness at such point, just my 2 cents
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


If I screw up I won't care about forgiveness. I did the crime, I'll do the time.

I don't believe in forgiveness for betrayal since it is a crime that is done specifically to harm you. All betrayals - cheating or otherwise - are purposeful acts in order to injure the betrayed. At a minimum the betrayer is trying to "get one over" on the betrayed and at worst it is a "fu(k you". We, the betrayed, hear excuses like "it wasn't about you" and "I never meant to hurt you" but every step of the way - from the first flirtation to the act of sex - the betrayer made the choice to harm their spouse. I can forgive an honest mistake or accidental harm, but betrayal is intentional and that I cannot forgive.


----------



## niceguy28 (May 6, 2016)

Maxo said:


> I understand,but what benefit could I derive? I am happy,at peace,enjoying life etc.
> Are there any studies re one benefitting from forgiving,or is it something folks just say because it sounds good and all evolved etc.?


 When you can forgive somebody that is a sign that you have truly moved on. When you can step back from a situation, evaluate someone in their totality looking at both the good and the bad and say that you forgive them then that means that you have truly accepted and put that part of your life behind you.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

niceguy28 said:


> When you can forgive somebody that is a sign that you have truly moved on. When you can step back from a situation, evaluate someone in their totality looking at both the good and the bad and say that you forgive them then that means that you have truly accepted and put that part of your life behind you.


Yes,but I seem to have accomplished this witout forgiving. And,as another poster pointed out,how,exactly, can one forgive someone who has never apologized or made restitution or amends?


----------



## niceguy28 (May 6, 2016)

Maxo said:


> Yes,but I seem to have accomplished this witout forgiving. And,as another poster pointed out,how,exactly, can one forgive someone who has never apologized or made restitution or amends?


That's just it. It isn't about them at all. It's about you. It's about no longer letting them occupy space in your head. Either way though if your happy then I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Maxo
> No complaints,just observations. I did,in fact,thank the OM.


I can understand not having any negative feelings for the OM but to thank him seems confusing.
*Why would you thank him for disrespecting you and banging your wife?*
Forgiving someone so that you no longer are controlled by resentful feelings is a good thing for me but to thank a person for not caring if he has no regard for you?
That is a little confusing to me.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I am hung up on this one topic...I don't feel i need to forgive my W affair in order to successful R. However I did screw up once in life too (nothing to do with marriage) and got a big break and was forgiven, I do recall how badly I felt the need to be forgiven, to get another chance, and show how I would never do that again. So I can feel and relate to how a remorseful person might deserve forgiveness and a 2nd chance.....
> So OP you don't have to forgive anything, is totally your choice, but it's likely you will make mistakes in life and that you might desire forgiveness at such point, just my 2 cents
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


*And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive them that trespass against us.* 

To do this one must be a Saint or Saint's Apprentice or a True Sage.
__________________________________________________

Life at 50K feet permits this. 

This is The Tao Way. 

Buddhists extol this.

Nirvana...........not the rock-head group!

Shed your body...merge with the Great Collective.

And on and on............Who will make the supper and who will plow the fields if everyone disconnects from Earth Station #1?

Not ready....not I.....no-sir-ree Bob-bee with the swinging clubby.


----------



## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Do you feel angry or resentful towards your spouse?

I would say that you don't, so you have forgiven her. You just like to play a semantic game to make yourself feel better. I think a bigger question might be why you cannot admit you have forgiven her. Forgiveness doesn't mean you tell the person and make sure they know you are over the offense. It can mean that but it doesn't have to.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> If you found what works for you, great. My brother divorced his cheating wife and 10 years later still has extremely hatred for her. He has not found the peace that you have.
> 
> Every person is different.


*While I found it in my heart to finally "forgive" both my cheating XW's per Biblical precepts, I will always reserve the right to remember what it was that their cheating did to me!

In yet another view, their sordid actions of infidelity have severely jaundiced me, greatly to the toxic point that I might never try to even give another woman a chance, sheerly out of fear that they would be right in line to be the third marital failure for me! 

And while I have definitely found peace in forgiving them both, I have not found that same peace in choosing to sparingly or not to associate with either of them!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## btterflykisses (Apr 29, 2016)

Maxo said:


> Maybe my situation is an anomaly. But,despite disliking my XW, and not forgiving her, my life seems to be pretty good. I am doing well financially,have a nice,good looking girlfriend,good relationships with my kids,great travel,good relationships with my ex-in-laws.
> Is it possible that the whole corroiveness of not forgiving spiel is just a cliche that sounds good but has no real substance?
> I mean,my life is so much more pleasant than it had been married to my XW,yet I still think of her as scum.


When you are ready you may forgive. Enjoy the peace you have now.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

arbitrator said:


> While I found it in my heart to finally "forgive"* both* my cheating XW's per Biblical precepts,
> 
> *I might never try to even give another woman a chance,* sheerly out of fear that they would be right in line to be the third marital failure for me!


Sorry A, I did realize you had two of them. But you are in a LTR now, right? So you are giving another woman a chance.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

As for forgiveness and Christianity....

The Bible commands believers to forgive IF the offender is repentant and asks for forgiveness. This is the only situation where Christians are told they MUST forgive. A believer is not expected or held accountable to forgive without the offender asking for it and showing repentance. 

Then there is the Christ-like forgiveness, where it is given without being asked for...Like when Christ forgave the Roman soldiers and Jewish leaders who were crucifying him...asking God to forgive them because they did not know what they were doing or WHO they were killing. That is a different kind of forgiveness. Christian preachers encourage believers to exercise this type of forgiveness because it is a way of emulating Christ. But it is not a commandment.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> Sorry A, I did realize you had two of them. But you are in a LTR now, right? So you are giving another woman a chance.


*No, I'm not and have not been in a LTR since my last D! I have sporadically dated but nothing beyond a first date! I would absolutely love to have another Mrs. A in my life but maybe, just maybe, it's God trying to tell me something, but I feel it's moreso out of my own personal fear of embracing yet another failure!

I often placate myself by saying that if I don't get into another relationship, that I'm saving some woman an unneeded heartache! *
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *No, I'm not and have not been in a LTR since my last D! I have sporadically dated but nothing beyond a first date! I would absolutely love to have another Mrs. A in my life but maybe, just maybe, it's God trying to tell me something, but I feel it's moreso out of my own personal fear of embracing yet another failure!
> 
> I often placate myself by saying that if I don't get into another relationship, that I'm saving some woman an unneeded heartache! *
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This is self-deprecating and doesn't serve you. What you really need to tell yourself is that you are holding out for a woman who meets your very precise standards of morality and conduct, and that you will not settle for less than a godly (but sexy) woman. 

You have had two ex-wives cheat on you and you know now what to look for when choosing a mate.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> This is self-deprecating and doesn't serve you. What you really need to tell yourself is that you are holding out for a woman who meets your very precise standards of morality and conduct, and that you will not settle for less than a godly (but sexy) woman.
> 
> You have had two ex-wives cheat on you and you know now what to look for when choosing a mate.


* First and foremost, I look for a woman who I am physically attracted to! As of late, that has been the exception rather than the rule. The second "test" is to see if they are basically on the same philosophical, political, and educational page that I am! So far, everything seems to terminate at the "physical attraction test!"

But let's say that all things eventually pass muster with the "tests" and you do reach that second or third date plateau, exactly how do you broach the subject of past "infidelity" victimization, as well as boundaries, while in the dating phase? Isn't bringing that subject matter up a "red flag" of sorts, primordially exhibiting an aura of weakness? And when they say they have never cheated or never will cheat, how do you know or what assurances do you have that their answer is indeed, trustworthy?*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> * First and foremost, I look for a woman who I am physically attracted to! As of late, that has been the exception rather than the rule. The second "test" is to see if they are basically on the same philosophical, political, and educational page that I am! So far, everything seems to terminate at the "physical attraction test!"
> 
> But let's say that all things eventually pass muster with the "tests" and you do reach that second or third date plateau, exactly how do you broach the subject of past "infidelity" victimization, as well as boundaries, while in the dating phase? Isn't bringing that subject matter up a "red flag" of sorts, primordially exhibiting an aura of weakness? And when they say they have never cheated or never will cheat, how do you know or what assurances do you have that their answer is indeed, trustworthy?*
> 
> ...




Never bring it up until you and her are looking at becoming exclusive, then you sit down and be level with her. 

But never talk about your exes during dates. Ever. Huge turn off to a woman. Only talk about them if you are asked and then only minimal info. Later, if you see her and you getting serious, then have the talk and only give her the facts. Don't berate or insult your ex-wives. That shows codependency and superficiality and is a huge turn off to a woman. Let her see and learn slowly, over time, what your exes did to you and come to her own conclusions. If she falls in love with you she will become your most powerful ally and advocate.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I see nothing wrong with the OP's position, that he is fine without forgiving the cheating ex.

As long as the all-consuming hatred "thoughts" are not infesting the mind 24/7, why bother with forgiveness?

I hate my ex for having infected me with HPV all those years ago. I'm battling throat cancer because of her illicit activities. Her infidelity is a gift that keeps on giving. And no mistake about it, this is what will be my demise.

I don't think that was her willful intent at the time, she just couldn't be bothered with protecting even herself, let alone me.

But do I think of that hatred nonstop? No. However, I do see it as unforgivable. She has shortened my life by a lot, put me through physical pain, and cost me a huge amount of money. Needing radiation and chemo treatments puts a spin on it for me.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Quote:
By Bandit
As for forgiveness and Christianity....

The Bible commands believers to forgive IF the offender is repentant and asks for forgiveness. This is the only situation where Christians are told they MUST forgive. A believer is not expected or held accountable to forgive without the offender asking for it and showing repentance.


----------



## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

drifter777 said:


> If I screw up I won't care about forgiveness. I did the crime, I'll do the time.
> 
> I don't believe in forgiveness for betrayal since it is a crime that is done specifically to harm you.


Me think you might be giving cheaters too much credit? I believe for the most part the very last thing they are thinking is about you or what they are doing to you, they are totally self absorbed in their own enjoyment and selfishness too much to be that thoughtful about anything. Yes still very wrong and reasonably unforgivable, but I see them more as stupid than any smart.
Of course I think there might be those that are doing it to intentionally hurt their spouse....not disagreeing with anything u said just another perspective 


Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I never forgave my ex. I never felt I needed to.

I just became really accepting and apathetic towards her.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Forgiving or not is an individual choice. I personally think it's the one who feels guilty that pushes for forgiveness. They want to be forgiven and not think about what they have done. Well, above, we can see how that may not be possible. Sometimes, we have to live with what we decided to do to our spouse. As a BS, and one who some say asked for it, I do feel some guilt. I would like forgiveness, but much more than that. I imagine my XWS might want forgiveness for her actions, though I find that pretty unlikely. She had to justify what she did and I'm sure found others who would side with her. 

In any case, I have not forgiven her. I don't know if she has forgiven me. I have softened over time with the easing of my own torment. In any case, I have no idea what forgiving means, to tell the truth. I've started threads on forgiveness, thinking it would ease my pain. They didn't do much for me. Likely they didn't because I didn't need to forgive her, whether she needed it or not. I needed forgiveness. I need it for my part in what happened. Though, what she did was beyond the pale, I need to feel accepted again. I need to feel strong again. I do base too much of my worth in the opinions of others, but I truly haven't had many opinions that were much more than indifferent. Most were negative. While some of that I do deserve, much I do not. That makes it tougher to forgive. 

So, knowing that I am not advocating nor opposing forgiving those who hurt you, I offer this link to help us all understand just what exactly it means to forgive. I do not understand it well. I've always considered it to mean we forgive and forget, to some extent, as if it never happened. I can't do that. That isn't even healthy. 

What is Forgiveness? | Psych Central

Here are a few more, if you are interested:

http://blogs.psychcentral.com/anger/2015/06/what-does-forgiveness-mean-to-you/

http://pro.psychcentral.com/exhausted-woman/2016/02/how-forgiveness-changes-a-person/

http://pro.psychcentral.com/dylann-roof-psychotherapy-and-the-flight-into-forgiveness/008919.html

http://psychcentral.com/lib/finding-freedom-in-forgiveness/

http://blogs.psychcentral.com/thera...-formula-to-help-you-heal-your-relationships/


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Quote:
> By Bandit
> As for forgiveness and Christianity....
> 
> The Bible commands believers to forgive IF the offender is repentant and asks for forgiveness. This is the only situation where Christians are told they MUST forgive. A believer is not expected or held a*ccountable to forgive without the offender asking for it and showing repentance*


. 


Bandit, your post gave me pause and was challenging. I tried to find in the Bible where

“A believer is not expected or held accountable to forgive without the offender asking for it and showing repentance.”

*So far I have not found that verse that is that direct so can you refer me to it?*

I did find where if a BROTHER who has sinned against you that if they do not repent then you treat them as a “gentile and a Tax collector.

Matthew 18
If Your Brother Sins Against You 
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And *if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.* 


The verses that I have found so far talk about a BROTHER sinning against you but not others. For that brother that sins and does not repent the actions seem severe. In First Corinthians 5 the sexual sinner that does not repent is cast out and put into Satan’s hands in hopes that he will repent.

1 Corinthians 5
Everyone is talking about the terrible thing that has happened there among you, something so evil that even the heathen don’t do it: you have a man in your church who is living in sin with his father’s wife.[a] 2 And are you still so conceited, so “spiritual”? Why aren’t you mourning in sorrow and shame and seeing to it that this man is removed from your membership?
3-4 Although I am not there with you, I have been thinking a lot about this, and in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I have already decided what to do, just as though I were there. You are to call a meeting of the church—and the power of the Lord Jesus will be with you as you meet, and I will be there in spirit— 5 and *cast out this man from the fellowship of the church and into Satan’s hands, to punish him, in the hope that his soul will be saved when our Lord Jesus Christ returns.*

9 When I wrote to you before I said not to mix with evil people. 10 But when I said that I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who live in sexual sin or are greedy cheats and thieves and idol worshipers. For you can’t live in this world without being with people like that. 11 *What I meant was that you are not to keep company with anyone who claims to be a brother Christian but indulges in sexual sins, or is greedy, or is a swindler, or worships idols, or is a drunkard, or abusive. Don’t even eat lunch with such a person*.


I have heard some people state that the Christian faith is a bunch of namby-pamby softies that do not take strong actions. The verses that I found above sure do look like the Bible is serious about consequences for those in the faith that decide to indulge in infidelity and other sins.

*Bandit, you seem to know about the Bible so can you show me where the verses are that substantiate your posts?* I am always willing to learn more about the Bible.


----------



## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

BobSimmons said:


> Eff forgiveness. Stuff it.
> 
> If you wrong me and knowingly wrong me (magnitude of wronging obviously taken into account) then that's it. I don't have to forgive but I will move on.
> 
> ...


The Lord said you will be forgiven, as you forgive others. You do not forgive... He will not forgive your sins either....

To forgive does not mean you have to reconcile or be buddy buddy. You can forgive and still cut someone out of your life. If you keep seeking harm to them or wishing bad to happen to them...then that is not forgiveness. 

If you do not think of them or want retribution/blood then you have forgiven them. Those who have wronged me I turned it over to the Lord and the things that happened to them I would not have wished on them.

But it was so bad....they turned to the Lord.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> You thanked the other man? *Not labeling him as the POSOM, as I would have, speaks volumes.*
> 
> A huge load the man relieved you of. He did you a favor. He was the *Exorcist.* He rid you of your *She-Demon.
> *
> ...


I just store it in a small corner of my mind,in case the opportunity for justice presents itself.
Until then,I am enjoying life. It does not seem to interfere.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Mr Blunt said:


> I can understand not having any negative feelings for the OM but to thank him seems confusing.
> *Why would you thank him for disrespecting you and banging your wife?*
> Forgiving someone so that you no longer are controlled by resentful feelings is a good thing for me but to thank a person for not caring if he has no regard for you?
> That is a little confusing to me.


My XW has a personality disorder,probably a combo platter of BPD,NPD,ASPD.
So,the infidelity was the tip of the iceberg as regards her abusivenese.
Cheating was the one clear,bright line that she crossex that got me off my ass to divorce her( something I should have done long before,but I was too committed to accepting abuse(( that is on me)) ).
So,with the cheating uncovered,I realized this was my get out of jail free card.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Tasorundo said:


> Do you feel angry or resentful towards your spouse?
> 
> I would say that you don't, so you have forgiven her. You just like to play a semantic game to make yourself feel better. I think a bigger question might be why you cannot admit you have forgiven her. Forgiveness doesn't mean you tell the person and make sure they know you are over the offense. It can mean that but it doesn't have to.


No,I would pay her back in some way if the opportunity preseted itself,legally.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Divinely Favored said:


> The Lord said you will be forgiven, as you forgive others. You do not forgive... He will not forgive your sins either....
> 
> To forgive does not mean you have to reconcile or be buddy buddy. You can forgive and still cut someone out of your life. If you keep seeking harm to them or wishing bad to happen to them...then that is not forgiveness.
> 
> ...


Well,personally, i do not view the bible or Christianity,as any type of authority on anything. So,its teachings or those of Jesus do not influence me.Same with other forms of religion.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> I can understand not having any negative feelings for the OM but to thank him seems confusing.
> Why would you thank him for disrespecting you and banging your wife?
> Forgiving someone so that you no longer are controlled by resentful feelings is a good thing for me but to thank a person for not caring if he has no regard for you?
> ...


I can understand your point that you are glad you got off your azz and divorced her because she cheated but that is not what I am talking about.
*Why would you thank a man for disrespecting you?*


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Mr Blunt said:


> I can understand your point that you are glad you got off your azz and divorced her because she cheated but that is not what I am talking about.
> *Why would you thank a man for disrespecting you?*


Well,imagine how much satisfaction he would get feeling he had hurt me. With the thanks,I let him know that I had,actually,gotten over on him. It was my way of showing him and my wife that I placed little value on a cheater and he was,inadvertently,doing me a favor.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> I can understand your point that you are glad you got off your azz and divorced her because she cheated but that is not what I am talking about.
> *Why would you thank a man for disrespecting you?*


I'm with you on this, Blunt. I can't imagine ever THANKING the Ap for f*cking my ex wife. That's assuming I could ever get the chickensh*t MF to stand still long enough.:grin2: He would run away if he knew I was in the same county.
It would be kind of like thanking somebody for giving me an ass-whippin. Now, I have HAD ass-whippins, but I don't recall ever being grateful for them.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Well,imagine how much satisfaction he would get feeling he had hurt me. With the thanks,I let him know that I had,actually,gotten over on him. It was my way of showing him and my wife that I placed little value on a cheater and he was,inadvertently,doing me a favor.


I think it shows the opposite. Why would you give a f*ck what your cheating wife or her AP thought? If you were really over them. What it really shows is that you still are allowing them to influence your feelings. For 2 1/2 years, I had no idea where my ex wife even lived, and I still don't know where the AP is, and haven't for years. He might be dead, for all it means to me. Who gives a sh*t?


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Maxo said:


> I understand,but what benefit could I derive? I am happy,at peace,enjoying life etc.
> Are there any studies re one benefitting from forgiving,or is it something folks just say because it sounds good and all evolved etc.?


Maybe you could use it to stop giving her rent free accommodation in your head?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> I think it shows the opposite. Why would you give a f*ck what your cheating wife or her AP thought? If you were really over them. What it really shows is that you still are allowing them to influence your feelings. For 2 1/2 years, I had no idea where my ex wife even lived, and I still don't know where the AP is, and haven't for years. He might be dead, for all it means to me. Who gives a sh*t?


To tell the truth, I was really grateful. This was an easily explainable reason to divorce an abusive person. It is not as well accepted to divorce for emotional abuse, especially for a man. 
Then, I moved on , never interacting with him again and only interacting with the XW for logistics re the kids. It was impromptu, but sincere.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Maybe you could use it to stop giving her rent free accommodation in your head?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have a large head. Doing so, as I mentioned, does not seem to interfere with my enjoyment of life, my work or my golf game.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> I think it shows the opposite. Why would you give a f*ck what your cheating wife or her AP thought? If you were really over them. What it really shows is that you still are allowing them to influence your feelings. For 2 1/2 years, I had no idea where my ex wife even lived, and I still don't know where the AP is, and haven't for years. He might be dead, for all it means to me. Who gives a sh*t?


This was early on, just month or two post D-day. So, undoubtedly, I was still reeling a bit and was concerned that the guy not feel he had gotten over on me. Since then, as time passed, any thought of him diminished immensely.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> I'm with you on this, Blunt. I can't imagine ever THANKING the Ap for f*cking my ex wife. That's assuming I could ever get the chickensh*t MF to stand still long enough.:grin2: He would run away if he knew I was in the same county.
> It would be kind of like thanking somebody for giving me an ass-whippin. Now, I have HAD ass-whippins, but I don't recall ever being grateful for them.


As I mentioned, I consider it as providing me with a benefit, that, in retrospect, freed me up to have a much happier life. so, the ass whipping analogy was not applicable to my situation, in my view.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, good luck with that. I know that I wouldn't have ever thought of doing something like this. Even right after D day, I still wouldn't. It would seem too much like thanking somebody for running over my dog, because I wouldn't have to buy dogfood.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Well, good luck with that. I know that I wouldn't have ever thought of doing something like this. Even right after D day, I still wouldn't. It would seem too much like thanking somebody for running over my dog, because I wouldn't have to buy dogfood.


Thank you. Based on my reading of your various posts, I am grateful for the fact that our thought processes are different. I am sure you are, as well.
Obviously, the distinction is that my dog has never betrayed me and I place much more value on my dog, or just about any dog, than I do on a cheating wife. Fairly obvious distinction, but, perhaps, you had some problems with analysis.


----------



## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

I don't believe forgiving means you rug sweep it, or take your XW back. 

I refused to forgive my XW, and it eventually destroyed me. Because I let it control my life, and even after I divorced, it wasn't enough. I don't know what I wanted, all I knew was that I wanted more. 
And it built up a level of rage and resentment that took me a long time to let go of. 

Forgiveness doesn't mean you take them back. It simply means you let go.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I have never been in analysis, but apparently you have , you seem to know how to make passive aggressive comments, quite well. I was simply illustrating why thanking the person who slept with your wife was a very bad idea. You think it is alright, apparently. Personally, I think forgiveness is better than an expression of gratitude . You do what you think best. I will go elsewhere.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Maxo said:


> To tell the truth, I was really grateful. This was an easily explainable reason to divorce an abusive person. It is not as well accepted to divorce for emotional abuse, especially for a man.
> Then, I moved on , never interacting with him again and only interacting with the XW for logistics re the kids. It was impromptu, but sincere.


You appears you weren't "happily married" to begin with. We're you thinking about divorce prior to her affair? I just get the feeling from reading some of your posts that the affair was just the icing on the cake to a divorce instead of the reason for your divorce.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> I have never been in analysis, but apparently you have , you seem to know how to make passive aggressive comments, quite well. I was simply illustrating why thanking the person who slept with your wife was a very bad idea. You think it is alright, apparently. Personally, I think forgiveness is better than an expression of gratitude . You do what you think best. I will go elsewhere.


I think your getting analyzed might be scary for both you and the therapist.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> I think your getting analyzed might be scary for both you and the therapist.


Yes, I see, irrelevant comments. You know, since it is your topic, shouldn't you get back on it?
You have brought up a very interesting idea, and I think it should be explored. Instead of being upset with the WS and AP, BS's should be GRATEFUL. What a novel concept.
I'm curious, how did you thank the OM? Did you shake his hand ?


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Yes, I see, irrelevant comments. You know, since it is your topic, shouldn't you get back on it?
> You have brought up a very interesting idea, and I think it should be explored. Instead of being upset with the WS and AP, BS's should be GRATEFUL. What a novel concept.
> I'm curious, how did you thank the OM? Did you shake his hand ?


In fact,I did. He seemed a bit unnerved.
I am relatively confident that it would have been a fairly easy task to have inflicted previous harm. But,I had no such desire.
As I mentioned,my XW was a selfish woman and had become even more abusive when her cheating began.
So,on soome level,maybe not a concious one yet (that came later,with the help of therapy and forums like this),I felt genuine gratitude towrd him.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Yes, I see, irrelevant comments. You know, since it is your topic, shouldn't you get back on it?
> You have brought up a very interesting idea, and I think it should be explored. Instead of being upset with the WS and AP, BS's should be GRATEFUL. What a novel concept.
> I'm curious, how did you thank the OM? Did you shake his hand ?


In fact,I did. He seemed a bit unnerved.
I am relatively confident that it would have been a fairly easy task to have inflicted harm. But,I had no such desire.
As I mentioned,my XW was a selfish woman and had become even more abusive when her cheating began.
So,on soome level,maybe not a conscious one yet (that came later,with the help of therapy and forums like this),I felt genuine gratitude towrd him.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, as my old Momma used to say, It takes all kinds to make a world. I never was, very much, concerned about the OM, at all, but I'm pretty sure that gratitude wasn't a word I would have used to describe my feeling towards him. Ok, I'm out of here.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Maxo said:


> Maybe my situation is an anomaly. But,despite disliking my XW, and not forgiving her, my life seems to be pretty good. I am doing well financially,have a nice,good looking girlfriend,good relationships with my kids,great travel,good relationships with my ex-in-laws.
> Is it possible that the whole corroiveness of not forgiving spiel is just a cliche that sounds good but has no real substance?
> I mean,my life is so much more pleasant than it had been married to my XW,yet I still think of her as scum.


She sounds evil and well rid of.

Does she even seek forgiveness?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Maxo said:


> Maybe my situation is an anomaly. But,despite disliking my XW, and not forgiving her, my life seems to be pretty good. I am doing well financially,have a nice,good looking girlfriend,good relationships with my kids,great travel,good relationships with my ex-in-laws.
> Is it possible that the whole corroiveness of not forgiving spiel is just a cliche that sounds good but has no real substance?
> I mean,my life is so much more pleasant than it had been married to my XW,yet I still think of her as scum.


I think it's more a matter of: are you obsessed with your anger at her and now bitter? Thinking about how she robbed you of X years and what could have been without her betrayal? Then forgiving will help. 

But if you're just "Yeah, I married a skanky ho - screwed that pooch - but hey, I'm happy now and only think about her once in a blue moon when someone else brings her up." Then screw forgiveness. She did what she did. She is what she is. You're not obligated to say that is okay. Because it's not. F her. 

(Ha ha I don't even know her and I'm getting angry, I think I need to forgive her...)


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> She sounds evil and well rid of.
> 
> Does she even seek forgiveness?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. In our entire marriage, she never apologized once for anything.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

WorkingWife said:


> I think it's more a matter of: are you obsessed with your anger at her and now bitter? Thinking about how she robbed you of X years and what could have been without her betrayal? Then forgiving will help.
> 
> But if you're just "Yeah, I married a skanky ho - screwed that pooch - but hey, I'm happy now and only think about her once in a blue moon when someone else brings her up." Then screw forgiveness. She did what she did. She is what she is. You're not obligated to say that is okay. Because it's not. F her.
> 
> (Ha ha I don't even know her and I'm getting angry, I think I need to forgive her...)



It is sort of strange,I guess. But, I,essentially,despise her. Yet,I am really happy in life.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Well, as my old Momma used to say, It takes all kinds to make a world. I never was, very much, concerned about the OM, at all, but I'm pretty sure that gratitude wasn't a word I would have used to describe my feeling towards him. Ok, I'm out of here.


Indeed it does. I expect even your bizzare takes make sense to someone(well,it is theoretically possible,anyway).


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Maxo said:


> It is sort of strange,I guess. But, I,essentially,despise her. Yet,I am really happy in life.


Hey, if it's not hurting your current mental health or relationships, and you're not investing time in her, I think sometimes it's kind of fun to have someone to despise... (Immature, perhaps, but hey.)

As a potential girlfriend/wife I always told men "If you can't say something bad about your ex, don't say anything at all!!!"


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Indeed it does. I expect even your bizzare takes make sense to someone(well,it is theoretically possible,anyway).


My take is bizzare ? LOL I've got an idea. Lets put it to a vote. Who would vote for being grateful to the OM and shaking his hand___Your take. And who wouldn't__My take. Wanna guess who wins? I would be willing to bet that not too many BS posters are willing to kiss and make up to their wives lovers.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Indeed it does. I expect even your bizzare takes make sense to someone(well,it is theoretically possible,anyway).


My take is bizzare ? LOL I've got an idea. Lets put it to a vote. Who would vote for being grateful to the OM and shaking his hand___Your take. And who wouldn't__My take. Wanna guess who wins?


----------



## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

Forgiveness.

Damn. I know I've got a compartment somewhere around here for this....


----------



## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

And thanking the OM?

Freaking beautiful.

That's a mini-cam/you tube/viral moment I'd pay money to see.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Whatever works for you, Maxo. I think you have made forward progress. That's really all that counts. No two individuals will do the same thing.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Maxo said:


> He was shocked. I shook his hand an said " Thank you. You have relieved me of a great burden."
> 
> Guess he found out about a year later when she started cheating on him with a married guy.


Reminds me of this. (a testament to BS everywhere)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1kV7Zf2aT8


----------



## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Reminds me of this. (a testament to BS everywhere)
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1kV7Zf2aT8


Same singer - this one's for all the BH's who are living in pain with their WW for whatever reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC0yG-LpBQ0

PS - No, you haven't really forgiven. You've just swallowed the $hit sandwich and are suffering in silence.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> My take is bizzare ? LOL I've got an idea. Lets put it to a vote. Who would vote for being grateful to the OM and shaking his hand___Your take. And who wouldn't__My take. Wanna guess who wins?[/QUOTE
> 
> Who is in the lead?]


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I've already won. It was rhetorical . My best guess is that except for you and a very few others ,the vast majority of BS's either ignore the AP or despise him/her. I can't be sure, mind you , but I'm pretty confident that most BS's have a little too much pride, to kow tow to the person who f*cked their spouse..


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I've already won. It was rhetorical . My best guess is that except for you and a very few others ,the vast majority of BS's either ignore the AP or despise him/her. I can't be sure, mind you , but I'm pretty confident that most BS's have a little too much pride, to kow tow to the person who f*cked their spouse..


My wife's AP was a defrocked psychologist who, though he looked like a bag of fog poo had multiple affairs on his poor wife.

I have nothing to be thankful to him for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> I've already won. It was rhetorical . My best guess is that except for you and a very few others ,the vast majority of BS's either ignore the AP or despise him/her. I can't be sure, mind you , but I'm pretty confident that most BS's have a little too much pride, to kow tow to the person who f*cked their spouse..


What were the totals?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

To return to the subject. OP, I find it interesting that you start a thread about not forgiving, and yet you mention your affection for the OM? Perhaps, the next time you visit your therapist, you should mention this to him/her? It sounds similar to "Stockholm Syndrome" Where kidnapping victims begin to identify with their captors. Or perhaps a repressed cuckold fantasy? Just a suggestion. IDK, perhaps it is neither one, but it is very unusual, to say the least. In any case, it is the most original thing you have ever said.:smile2:


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> To return to the subject. OP, I find it interesting that you start a thread about not forgiving, and yet you mention your affection for the OM? Perhaps, the next time you visit your therapist, you should mention this to him/her? It sounds a lot like "Stockholm Syndrome" Where kidnapping victims begin to identify with their captors. Or perhaps a repressed cuckold fantasy? In any case, it is the most original thing you have ever said.


OK,I will mention it to him and let you know:smile2: But, first, I have to get ready for a tournament.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Good luck. If it were me, I wouldn't even attempt it. I've about given up on golf.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Good luck. If it were me, I wouldn't even attempt it. I've about given up on golf.


Thanks. Much like our analytical abilities, I suspect we have a slight difference in our golf skill levels. Will keep you posted.


----------



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I don't think any sort of official forgiving is necessary. As many have pointed out, it's semantics and forgiveness should be earned, much like respect.

Because my ex was narcissistic, although he was in control of his behavior since he never said or did anything awful in public, most of the problems were due to his verbal and physical abuse driven by his personality disorder. I knew he'd never think he was in the wrong and he would never apologize. I don't forgive him but I do pity him. He will never have real relationships with anyone, including his own daughter. I still despise him for some of the things he's done - mostly for things done to his daughter and mother. And he will go through the rest of his life hating me, among others.

But I don't need to give forgiveness to move on. He no longer impacts my life in any way unless having my daughter full time counts. I don't have to see him or deal with him much more. I easily ignore him when he's present (at daughter's events). It's almost as if he doesn't exist. The fact I'm so indifferent is enough for me.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I will concede the field to you in golf. It's a crying shame that I'm even a member of the CC. I think they made me a member out of pity.
Trouble is, I'm an excellent marksman. I can shoot anything with rifle, pistol or shotgun. I am a very good pool player, and was a good baseball player, too. So, you would think that a grown man could hit a white ball straight on a field of green grass. But no.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> I will concede the field to you in golf. It's a crying shame that I'm even a member of the CC. I think they made me a member out of pity.
> Trouble is, I'm an excellent marksman. I can shoot anything with rifle, pistol or shotgun. I am a very good pool player, and was a good baseball player, too. So, you would think that a grown man could hit a white ball straight on a field of green grass. But no.


Most pro golfers, at least from my era, were excellent athletes in other sports, as well. I had 9 varsity letter in college, 3 in basketball, 3 in baseball and 3 in golf.
So, if you have the type of skills you describe, the hand -eye etc. you have the potential to get good.
many of my friends who played D-1 basketball, however ( some made it to the NBA), just took up golf too late. I started at 7, 55 years ago.
Despite the fact that many of them were better at basketball, they never caught up to me in golf.
Starting young has several advantages: unlimited time to practice, no fear of embarrassment so a willingness to try different techniques vs sticking to one that is adequate but will never get you really good; and, the fact that the brain seems more receptive to learning, often by imitation and , like learning a language at an early age, it is easier.
I would teach you, but you beat me in your poll, which upsets me. But, if you fly me to the Caribbean, I will do it.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> I've already won. It was rhetorical . My best guess is that except for you and a very few others ,the vast majority of BS's either ignore the AP or despise him/her. I can't be sure, mind you , but I'm pretty confident that most BS's have a little too much pride, to kow tow to the person who f*cked their spouse..



I, too, think it's odd to `Thank` the OM and shake his hand appreciatively. If it happened immediately on discovery day I'd `almost` be a bit sympathetic towards the ex-wife's likely revisionist wayward excuses of being neglected as that behavior {thanking OM} would certainly be an indication that he didn't `love, cherish or honor` his wife very much. But I have a feeling this exchange with OM happened a long time after discovery day and maybe even after the divorce was final and that {deserved} hurtful message was the actual intent at that time.

As I remember it, I believe Maxo did the `pick me` dance for 3 or 4 months while his wife pretended to work on the marriage and as she was setting him up for a divorce, custody grab, possession of the marital home and moving OM into the home. By the time Arnold had to face OM, he'd already cleared out the betrayed husband `fog` a bit and planned out the most cutting, non-physical way to handle the conversation {there were kids involved so continuing interaction was likely} and as a lawyer and sole provider for his children he wasn't going to risk incarceration. It makes for a good story NOW but I seriously doubt it's what happened or how Arnold felt when he initially discovered the affair and was trying to reconcile. He cherished and loved his wife and family just like the rest of us `chumped` betrayed husbands. 

Consider also, this was Maxo's second go~around on the infidelity carousel. His first wife cheated on him also resulting in an eventual divorce. So he had prior experience dealing with infidelity, recovered and moved on to marry again. Life didn't end. The trauma of two separate discovery days will do a number on just about anyone pretty quick but I do wonder if he was a lot more prepared to handle it the second time than most. I wonder also if he `thanked` and shook the hand of the OM that interfered in his first marriage?

I have another question. As a Christian myself, I will always hope and pray for the salvation of others and it saddens me that Maxo {or anyone} does not believe. That being said, as an agnostic|atheist with a lot of deeply vested anger towards your cheating ex-wive{s} and seemingly any and all cheaters, former repentant ones included, does it bother you or ever cross your mind that, according to the Word, my fully repentant former wayward wife {who can spot, dislike and be disgusted by active wayward cheaters as we work with marriages through our ministry just as much as you} will inherit the Kingdom of God one day and you won't unless you end up believing someday? Does your anger, hatred, unforgivingness, if that's a word, whisper in your ear that `I'm fine with that because if cheaters are there, I don't want to be there anyway`? I'm fairly sure there will be a heck of a lot more cheaters in the other place. I recognize it's a tough question because it's so easy to deflect with non-belief, but what if you're wrong? Do you think it will bother you to see fully repentant former wayward cheaters entering Heaven?


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Quality, it does scare me a bit, the afterlife deal, but, I have led a good life, abiding by the Golden Rule, for the most part. I am not an unforgiving person. Quite the contrary, actually, and am a bit of a softie.
But, realistically , does it make sense to forgive someone who is without remorse?
On the issue of Christianity and faith etc. , I was raised in a very religious household. My dad went to mass almost every day. We boys were all altar boys. We did our nine first Fridays so have plenary indulgences, according to Catholic dogma, so are assured of a chance to ask forgiveness when we know we are about to die. I plan to do so, just in case.
But, I have been watching a lot of videos by Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris, agnostics or atheists and they make sense re the evil brought about by organized religion or the contradictions in the bible re a merciful God.
I know many very intelligent people , yourself included, obviously as you have made the Arnold link, who believe and I take no issue with them.
But, faith is beyond me , at this point. My dad was a Harvard educated lawyer and extremely bright and believed. Yet, he drank like a fish and abused me mercilessly as a child. I have seen so many examples of kind, gentle atheists as well s believers, I do not think that if there is a God and Jesus is his son, that God would condemn me, as I have led a good life.
I have taken no measures against my XWs. They seem to like me and call me all the time to talk about the kids. They try to talk bout other things, too, but I limit them. So, I guess I am kind to them and treat them well.
But, neither has ever asked for forgiveness and I have a hard time forgiving them , not for what they did to me, but for how this has affected our kids.
I have no problem with your having faith and almost envy you, but I cannot force myself to have it, much as I wish I could.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Most pro golfers, at least from my era, were excellent athletes in other sports, as well. I had 9 varsity letter in college, 3 in basketball, 3 in baseball and 3 in golf.
> So, if you have the type of skills you describe, the hand -eye etc. you have the potential to get good.
> many of my friends who played D-1 basketball, however ( some made it to the NBA), just took up golf too late. I started at 7, 55 years ago.
> Despite the fact that many of them were better at basketball, they never caught up to me in golf.
> ...


Hand-eye coordination isn't my problem. My problem is ball-club coordination. I can hit a golf ball a country mile, unfortunately that country is Mongolia. If I could just straighten it out consistently, I would at least have a fighting chance. But I do agree that I probably came into it , too late in the game to be really good. I have the same problem with bowling. I took up the sport only 4 or 5 years ago, and I suck at it.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

L


Rookie4 said:


> Hand-eye coordination upisn't my problem. My problem is ball-club coordination. I can hit a golf ball a country mile, unfortunately that country is Mongolia. If I could just straighten it out consistently, I would at least have a fighting chance. But I do agree that I probably came into it , too late in the game to be really good. I have the same problem with bowling. I took up the sport only 4 or 5 years ago, and I suck at it.


Here is the deal with golf. If you can generate good club head speed ,thus hitting it far,it can be harnessed. The ability to generate club head speed,real speed,is God given( apologies to atheists), like jumping ability or sprinting speed.
So,if you have that,you have potential.
But,go to any weekend softball tournament and you will see myriad guys with clubhead speed capability. Most of them suck at golf because they do not know how to channel the speed,and they do not have the time or inclination to learn.
Now that you have retired and are still relatively strong,you could learn and get reasonably good,although your lateness to the game will give you a lower top end,unless you are truly exceptional and obsessive.
I doubt the average person really understands what goes into getting really good at a sport. Athletes do,but the average person just sees the finished product,not the hours devoted to it.
Same with getting good at anything,business, law,medicine,art,cooking etc With club head speed capability,you probably could get pretty good,but many folks have better things to do.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, with my missing toes, and all, I probably won't get much better, but I feel that if I could stick my drives consistently, and work on my mediocre short game, I could improve my scores so as not to be embarrassed. I"m fairly good at putting because I read greens pretty well. But you are probably right about putting in the effort.


----------



## becareful (Jan 28, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I am hung up on this one topic...I don't feel i need to forgive my W affair in order to successful R. However I did screw up once in life too (nothing to do with marriage) and got a big break and was forgiven, I do recall how badly I felt the need to be forgiven, to get another chance, and show how I would never do that again. So I can feel and relate to how a remorseful person might deserve forgiveness and a 2nd chance.....
> So OP you don't have to forgive anything, is totally your choice, but it's likely you will make mistakes in life and that you might desire forgiveness at such point, just my 2 cents
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Somebody forgave you when you desperately needed it, but now that your wife desperately needs your forgiveness, you withhold it from her?


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I think a good example from the bible is when Jesus is hanging on the cross. Two hang with him, one on his left and one on his right. One of them asks why he doesn't take himself down from the cross and save himself, if he is the son of god. The other tells the first they deserved their punishment, but Jesus did not. He than asks forgiveness and is told by Jesus, he will be with him this day in paradise. 

You can figure out the connections to this thread.


----------



## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

becareful said:


> Somebody forgave you when you desperately needed it, but now that your wife desperately needs your forgiveness, you withhold it from her?


I feel like I eventually will, there is just something about the betrayal of infidelity that makes it unique I guess. But yes in time I will likely forgive but I am not sure am ready yet..



Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> I think a good example from the bible is when Jesus is hanging on the cross. Two hang with him, one on his left and one on his right. One of them asks why he doesn't take himself down from the cross and save himself, if he is the son of god. The other tells the first they deserved their punishment, but Jesus did not. He than asks forgiveness and is told by Jesus, he will be with him this day in paradise.
> 
> You can figure out the connections to this thread.


I would forgive if I ever got an apology and acknowledgement of the abuse. As you can see, the man on the cross beside Christ acknowledged what he had done.


----------



## becareful (Jan 28, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I feel like I eventually will, there is just something about the betrayal of infidelity that makes it unique I guess. But yes in time I will likely forgive but I am not sure am ready yet..
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


When was the last time she asked you for forgiveness, or has she stopped asking and assumed that since you stayed, that you have forgiven her? How is that situation with the cop who said he wanted to sleep with your wife? IIRC, a member here by the name whitewolf in Lonely Husband's thread told the story of how a friend aggressively came on to his wife while he was stationed at a military training base early on in their marriage. The wife drove two hours to tell him (back when they didn't have the internet or cell phones). They are in their 70s now and have been together for 50 years. Tell your wife this story and let her know that's the kind of integrity you would like to see from her. That's the kind of integrity and respect that make a marriage last. Has she come around to see that not telling you for 2 days and only after she and the daughter was away was a setback to your reconciliation?


----------



## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

Quality said:


> I, too, think it's odd to `Thank` the OM and shake his hand appreciatively. If it happened immediately on discovery day I'd `almost` be a bit sympathetic towards the ex-wife's likely revisionist wayward excuses of being neglected as that behavior {thanking OM} would certainly be an indication that he didn't `love, cherish or honor` his wife very much. But I have a feeling this exchange with OM happened a long time after discovery day and maybe even after the divorce was final and that {deserved} hurtful message was the actual intent at that time.
> 
> As I remember it, I believe Maxo did the `pick me` dance for 3 or 4 months while his wife pretended to work on the marriage and as she was setting him up for a divorce, custody grab, possession of the marital home and moving OM into the home. By the time Arnold had to face OM, he'd already cleared out the betrayed husband `fog` a bit and planned out the most cutting, non-physical way to handle the conversation {there were kids involved so continuing interaction was likely} and as a lawyer and sole provider for his children he wasn't going to risk incarceration. It makes for a good story NOW but I seriously doubt it's what happened or how Arnold felt when he initially discovered the affair and was trying to reconcile. He cherished and loved his wife and family just like the rest of us `chumped` betrayed husbands.
> 
> ...


I've always thought the best response to "What happens when you die?"
is that I'll go back to whatever I was doing for the 15 billion years before I was born. Anything else just seems like an insurance plan and because I have yet to ever see any proof of pay-out, even though I've seen plenty of death, I've been more than a little hesitant to participate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Forgiveness is overrated.

If the perp is unrepentant....f*ck them....they don't deserve it.

And I also think that there are some injuries or betrayals that are so beyond the pale, that I don't give a d*mn how remorseful and apologetic the person is....they will never get anything from me but disdain and contempt.

I might not try to get revenge, depending on the offense, but I'm sure not going to extend any comfort or care towards them, by helping them feeling better about how sh*tty they behaved because they have been pardoned by their victim.

They can learn to live and deal with it on their own as far as I'm concerned...they'll get no help from me towards feeling rehabilitated or whatever one wants to call it.

And Quality, I'm a firm agnostic now in life. The worries or questions about the afterlife which you mentioned have zero interest or meaning to me.....I don't think there is an afterlife, so why would I worry about it?

I was raised in a very religious family, but now consider myself unburdened and freed from all that (in my view) nonsense. I wouldn't waste a minute of the time I have remaining being troubled by such questions or concerns.

I want to make clear, I wasn't irritated or offended by your questions to us non-believers at all. I'm sure your intentions were out of care and wanting what you deem best for us non-theists.

Just wanted to offer an answer from one agnostic about how we think about the questions you posed.


----------



## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Not specifically about this thread but being raised in a Catholic family, my faith has almost completely gone now too where I don't know what I really believe over the past 10-15 years, not sure why either.... I did read one incredible article one that said humans are the only species to believe in God(s), because we are the only ones living knowing we are going to die one day, other species have no knowledge of their eventual and unavoidable death... So the human brain doesn't yet figured out this concept of living and knowing that death is inevitable, so it uses religion as a coping mechanism. Sounds harsh but could be completely true also if you think about it. 
Makes me kinda sad because I was a person of faith... Who knows, I do believe there is a larger meaning for all this, but no idea what or why. 

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Not specifically about this thread but being raised in a Catholic family, my faith has almost completely gone now too where I don't know what I really believe over the past 10-15 years, not sure why either.... I did read one incredible article one that said humans are the only species to believe in God(s), because we are the only ones living knowing we are going to die one day, other species have no knowledge of their eventual and unavoidable death... So the human brain doesn't yet figured out this concept of living and knowing that death is inevitable, so it uses religion as a coping mechanism. Sounds harsh but could be completely true also if you think about it.
> Makes me kinda sad because I was a person of faith... Who knows, I do believe there is a larger meaning for all this, but no idea what or why.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


Religion has/had another evolutionary benefit.

It offers assurances about what happens after the inevitable death occurs.

Being certain about what will happen to them allows people to get on with the daily concerns of actual living in this world, without being consumed by dread of the unknown/unknowable.

IMO opinion, all that certainty is just myth and superstition.....but a huge percentage of people would become so obsessed with fear and worry about their deaths, that they might not be able to perform the tasks necessary to actually survive and reproduce without it.

It gives death meaning, while at the same time comforting the fear its inevitability creates.

So, while I see it as ridiculous nonsense now.....I do see why religion continues to be such an essential part of many people's lives.


----------



## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Religion - the opiate of the masses...


----------



## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Dyokemm said:


> It gives death meaning, while at the same time comforting the fear its inevitability creates.
> 
> So, while I see it as ridiculous nonsense now.....I do see why religion continues to be such an essential part of many people's lives.


Precisely as the article I read implies, it's a mental coping mechanism to deal with living while being fully aware of an unavoidable end. Animals don't know that they will inevitably die, so as far as we know they need no religious belief (neither might be able to have any anyways). 
On a similar angle, I also recently read credible papers that suggest immortality is about 150yrs out from today, ethical approval was recently provided for a trial to revive a brain dead individual using stem cells. So who knows how will religion look like when it collides with things like immortality, AI or intelligent alien life discovery. 
Anyways I by no means imply to be atheist nor oppose religious beliefs, neither will I further attempt to hijack this thread!!


----------



## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Precisely as the article I read implies, it's a mental coping mechanism to deal with living while being fully aware of an unavoidable end. Animals don't know that they will inevitably die, so as far as we know they need no religious belief (neither might be able to have any anyways).
> On a similar angle, I also recently read credible papers that suggest immortality is about 150yrs out from today, ethical approval was recently provided for a trial to revive a brain dead individual using stem cells. So who knows how will religion look like when it collides with things like immortality, AI or intelligent alien life discovery.
> Anyways I by no means imply to be atheist nor oppose religious beliefs, neither will I further attempt to hijack this thread!!


I don't think it's a threadjack. It got me thinking about the close relationship between faith and forgiveness. In particular, your musing about religion and it's collision with science. 

First, I don't think of it as so much of a crash as it is free market competition. Up until the (historically) fairly recent advent of scientific inquiry, religion had cornered the market on immortality. And it was a bargain. All that you had to do was buy the story to gain it. The only caveat is that you have to die in order to live forever. But the bonus was that it leveled the playing field and in fact wealth could actually work against you.

Science is the new shop on the block and distinguishes itself in the market by promising tangible, this-life immortality. It's just that you are actually going to have to pay for it. Somehow I don't think it'll be affordable for the unwashed masses too quickly.

In either case, I honestly believe that forgiveness becomes relevant. 

Immortality is forever. And forever is a really long time to hate someone


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Good discussion . I have nothing more to add. Wow,I remember all that stuff from my childhood: novena,stations of the cross,incense,getting my throat blessed on St Blaze day, et cum spiritu tuo.rosary,slapped by the bishop at Confirmation,holy water, sepluchars,plenary indulgences,Father Rozint molesting my two friends, Father Collonan,a great guy,Father Bergeron smoking and going to the track( best guy for confession- one Hail Mary covered it as pennance.
Life was simpler then. We were going to heaven. We had Carte Blanc as we had our plenary indulgences banked,so we could raise hell, knowing we would have a chance to repent both mortal and venal sins.
We lived this stuff. Drank communion wine before mass and got buzzed before heading to the altar as altar boys.
Injected 75 year old Sister Maria James Orange with Vodka using a hypodermic needle. Parochial school with nuns follwed by HS with Jesuits( those guys partied).:laugh:


----------



## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

lostmyreligion said:


> Immortality is forever. And forever is a really long time to hate someone


And equally a long time for chances to be cheated on, lol!! 

Honestly I think deep down we all want immortality, I don't think our minds have yet evolved to fully cope with the concept of death w/o using workarounds like religion. But even if we do achieve immortality whose to say our minds will be prepared to live forever anyways?? I would imagine all sorts of mental illness would creep in unless they address that too somehow, I certainly don't want immortality if am going to feel like crap forever. 

I think many of us have already experienced death to some level, ever been under general anesthesia? Well there you go, everything is gone in one instant, no thoughts, no dreams, nothing, just complete lack of existential awareness, but with death you never wake up. I believe our minds have difficulty grasping this concept, who wouldn't (thou I think as we age it does become easier, and when faced with extreme pain or anguish we know we can desire death). 

Allright this is depressing stuff!!! Enough from me!


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Ripper said:


> Forgiveness is not necessary and *so long as negative thoughts aren't consuming you,* I wouldn't spend much effort trying to get there.


Maxo,

I think you have achieved the 14th level of Indifference.


----------



## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

lostmyreligion said:


> In either case, I honestly believe that forgiveness becomes relevant.
> 
> Immortality is forever. And forever is a really long time to hate someone


you're equating not forgiving to hate. In my head, that's not how it works.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Seems like no two here have the same definition or understanding of just exactly what forgiveness actually means.


----------

