# Drove my daughter to the homeless shelter, feel terrible.



## DanaS

I know it's been awhile since I have posted, and if you want some background info see my thread titled "Am I being a bad mother?". To put it short I am fairly newly married to a younger man that is the most amazing supportive man I have known, I am also 6 months pregnant. 

Anyway, as in my other thread my daughter who is now 23 had a huge issue with it with him being closer to her age at 28 then me at 44, she was living with a roommate before but got kicked out due to partying and bad behavior and eventually a guy friend of hers (just a platonic one) let her move in with him, well, she messed that up to and he kicked her out after 3 months! 

I eventually agreed to let her move in with me on the conditions that she be respectful of me and especially my husband regardless of how she feels about the situation, help around with chores and get a job and help with bills. 

Well she has hardly done any of that. She has applied at some jobs but refuses to apply at fast food places because she thinks they're "beneath her" and says she flat out refuses to work fast food. Along with that she's been real messy and doesn't clean up after herself. 

Last month I was out of town on a business trip and my husband called me saying when he got back from work (he works late hours) the house was a mess, she had a lot of friends over and had a party omg. When he told her to start cleaning up she just told him to do it and left the house.

Well, two days ago I was in the kitchen and she started bad mouthing my husband and when he asked her if she could just clean up a mess she made she told him to "f off!" OMG. I HAD HAD IT!

I told her gather basic supplies we are going on a trip, she argued but finally got her stuff together and I drove her to the local homeless shelter. I pulled up and told her to get out, she thought it was a joke at first but I told her I love her but I can't handle her or her attitude anymore and I hope she grows up. She got out and slammed the car door. 

When I got home I was crying my eyes out, being pregnant sure doesn't help. My hubby comforted me and made me feel less bad about what I did. I still feel bad, but I am at my wit's end! My daughter has always been a difficult child but I think quite literally being forced to hit rock bottom may be what she needs. Some here may say I am being a terrible mother, but I didn't know what else to do. 

Sorry if this is long. I just hope you don't think too badly of me. We have a baby on the way and I can't deal with my daughter right now and all the stress she brings. 

Anyway, I do love my daughter but what else can I do? Thanks for listening.


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## frusdil

I don't think you're a terrible mother at all! I think your daughters attitude is terrible! 

Time she learnt that her actions have consequences. She's an adult, not a child.

Well done!


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## richie33

You did the right thing!!! 23 years old and still acting like a spoiled brat....she has to learn the hard way.


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## hookares

You have done FOR your child what many of us wouldn't have the stones to do. At her age, she should have already learned the art of humility and don't believe anybody if they suggest that YOU learn it for her.


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## happy as a clam

I remember your other thread. Her behavior was atrocious then, and it seems it has only gotten worse 

I think you did the right thing.

She has to hit absolute rock bottom before she can even begin to see the truth of her actions.

I'm sorry for what you're going through.


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## EleGirl

While a agree that your daughter's behavior is atrocious, there are more realities.

One of them being that it's highly unlikely that she even got into the homeless shelter.

What do you know about the place you dropped her off? Is it a daily shelter. A daily shelter is on in which people show up at a particular time and wait in line. It's first come, first serve. Every shelter has a limit that they are allowed to have. So everyone over that limit is turned away. If that happens she's on the street tonight. 

What's the weather like where you live?


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## Miss Taken

I know you feel terrible. That just means you love your daughter. I think you were in your right to do what you did. Hang in there. All I can say is don't back down. 

If she gives you the cold shoulder, goes dark or goes silent, let her. Let her be the one to initiate contact, hopefully with some genuine contrition and a new reality check for how her behaviour has been.

If she calls barking at you, blaming you and not taking responsibility, don't cave. Remind her what she did to put you to your limit and then hang up the phone.

If she calls whimpering, whining, crying then MAYBE it's time to talk but only IF she demonstrates accountability and awareness that drove you to make such a drastic decision. 

At 23 she is old enough to take full responsibility for her actions, choices, behaviours. Obviously killing her with kindness has not worked for you. Now it seems it is time for tough love.

I know it's hard (no, I don't know actually as I've never been in your shoes but I can assume). Much of my advice does not come from mothering but from having an addict for a sister. (Who is now clean going on 3 years and getting married this summer and just met my kids (10 and 2) this fall. ). She was a drug addict for well over a decade during that time, I had to set firm boundaries and it broke my heart but was the right thing to do. I think you're also during the right thing.


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## vms

I think you did the right thing. Odds are she called someone and they came to get her and she didn't actually stay in the shelter. If she didn't, too damn bad. If she had no one to call, well, she created that reality for herself. She is 5 years past being a legal adult. She's not a child, but an ADULT. A parent's job is ongoing, and part of that job is to teach your kids that you are their mother, but you are NOT there to be used and abused. 

I would bet that your daughter has feelings of jealousy towards your new husband and pregnancy. She probably feels some level of rejection. But if she is going to abuse the two of you because of it, you do not have to take it. 

So good job Momma.


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## arbitrator

She left you no other option. But my intuition greatly tells me that she immediately ditched the shelter and probably has bunked in with other friends of hers!

Does she perchance have a cell phone of any kind on her?


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## Methuselah

I would have thrown her out and let her walk to the homeless shelter.

You did her a favor by driving her there.


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## DanaS

Thanks for all the support everyone! Being pregnant my hormones are going wild so I was a little worried I may have acted irrationally. 

I should clarify I didn't leave immediately, I did make sure she got in and she does have a cell and clothes and other necessary items to survive. I also gave her $50. As for friends she can call for help, she always does things that pushes them away with her attitude. 

The real problem is she takes after her father in both attitude and mannerisms. I have tried to teach and discipline her whole life but nothing sticks, and she's just as lazy as her father as well, hence the "I am better than fast food" thing despite not having a degree or much experience at all. I also felt horrible for my husband. After her "party" and she bailed he spent 3 hours in the AM cleaning it up! I told him he didn't need to do that and have her do it but he wanted to clean up anyway. 

I know she can't stay in a shelter forever, and I know she could end up on the street, but I think she'll start applying at those fast food places now, hopefully. 

If she does and gets something and shows she is working and keeps at it I will talk to her about letting her come back, but until then I will no longer subject myself nor my husband to her abuse and slovenly ways. 

On a brighter note, and unrelated I found out I am having a girl! Much as I love the daughter I have I pray this one will be better behaved.


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## Runs like Dog

You reared her. A little late to fix the damage you created so drastic measures are called for. Maybe some family therapy is called for. After all, you are, of a sorts, a family, no?


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## Deep Down

@ Runs like a Dog - Is it nature or nurture? I don't think DanaS is entirely responsible for how her daughter has turned out (so far). There are plenty of families where one child is the "black sheep". I think there's a fair whack of genetic influence there, that no amount of good parenting can remove. 

DanaS - It's probably only when she clearly sees the consequences of her actions, that your daughter will start thinking about her choices. Let's hope it has some effect. Your husband sounds really patient and loving. Wishing you well for the little one.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

OP- Me and my Mother had a falling out when I was young, I also ended up in a shelter when she wouldn't let me come home. It's pretty drastic. I can look back now and understand and we are great friends now but it was also very hurtful and I met many young girls there who were deeply hurt as well. 

It is likely very difficult to have a step father who is 5 years older than her. I'm not sure if you ever did counseling for and with her about it but I think it would be a good idea, even if she's not living with you. Starting over with a new husband, new baby, she doesn't know where she belongs. I'm not sure if your point will get through or if it will be looked at - by her- as you just getting her out of the way.
Don't get me wrong, I understand why you did it. I just don't know if she will, at least not yet.


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## DanaS

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> OP- Me and my Mother had a falling out when I was young, I also ended up in a shelter when she wouldn't let me come home. It's pretty drastic. I can look back now and understand and we are great friends now but it was also very hurtful and I met many young girls there who were deeply hurt as well.
> 
> It is likely very difficult to have a step father who is 5 years older than her. I'm not sure if you ever did counseling for and with her about it but I think it would be a good idea, even if she's not living with you. Starting over with a new husband, new baby, she doesn't know where she belongs. I'm not sure if your point will get through or if it will be looked at - by her- as you just getting her out of the way.
> Don't get me wrong, I understand why you did it. I just don't know if she will, at least not yet.


Oh, I totally understand where you're coming from. However, she forced this situation on herself. I understand her taking time to get used to my new husband especially with him being closer to her age, having a new sister etc. and had she been mature and responsible, didn't get kicked out of apartments we would've had time to.

But she was forced to move back home and thus she put herself in the middle of it. I just want her to get a job, but like her father she looks down on "menial" jobs and thinks everyone else is dumb/stupid (believe me I hear from her all the time how "stupid" so and so is.), at her last job, which she worked for a total of 4 months before getting fired, would always tell me about how stupid her co workers were and how she could do a better job. 

I just don't get what's up with her unless, as previously stated, this is a case of father like daughter since my ex used to act the same way. And while I am far from a perfect mother I have always been there for her and tried to discipline her when she would do wrong. But it's just her. Heck, I remember an incident way back when she was 6 she took some cookies without asking and when I tried to explain to her why it was wrong she just shrugged her shoulders and said "I don't care". I had a bad feeling about her since then, and fear she has little innate empathy/sympathy.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

How long has she been there now? Have you talked to her at all since you dropped her off?
How long were you and your husband together before the marriage? Were you able to do anything during that time to prepare her for it? 
There are family counseling places that deal with step-parent issues. If you are in touch with her I would still suggest reaching out and offering this. 

Try not to forget about the positives in her. I know it's hard to see them sometimes but with everything going on, she's going to need to know that you still love her and that she still has her family.


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## the guy

Who the hell has a party at someone else's house....and to top it off won't clean their own sh1t up?


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## the guy

You should of spanked her @ss when she was 6!


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

the guy said:


> Who the hell has a party at someone else's house....and to top it off won't clean their own sh1t up?


I had my babies by then so I was tame but some of my friends who didn't, and my H and his friends, pulled some ridiculous crap at that age. They turned into fine people once they were older. It can be a tough age and this girl has some serious sh*t going on in her life right now. 
Maybe I'm too relaxed but I wouldn't think it was the end of the world. Unacceptable and requiring a consequence, but fairly typical behavior for a troubled young adult going through a hard and confusing time.

IMO I think she needs help, support and love.


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## EleGirl

the guy said:


> Who the hell has a party at someone else's house....and to top it off won't clean their own sh1t up?


My kids had a party in my house one weekend when I went to Las Vegas. 

When I returned home, it was spotless. That was what tipped me off that they'd had a party. ... oh.. and the dog had a hang over..


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## TheFlood117

Point of no return. A Rubicon of sorts. 

I hope you understand that. 

Cause I can, without a doubt, guarantee your daughter knows this. 

I've said on another board of this forum before, when I was going through major life changing issues- 

You are a husband/wife for a limited time in your life. Things happen... Infidelity, lying, abuse... Divorce. You are a husband or wife for whatever 2nd or even 3rd party allows you to be. 


YOU ARE A PARENT. 


*FOREVER. *

Good luck.


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## staarz21

The problem with kids (and young adults today) is that we are coddling them. Well, I'm not. I refuse to let my kids talk back to me or let someone else tell me I am doing it wrong. Honestly, I can't stand other people's kids these days. There is absolutely zero respect...

I think what you did was great. At 23 that girl should be in school and have a [email protected] job. Thinking that fast food is beneath her is what's going to land her in a homeless shelter later on. She needs to be responsible for the choices she makes. She is an adult. You can't support her forever if she is completely capable of taking care of herself. You never mentioned any disabilities, so I am assuming she can. 

My dad threw me out of the house when I was 17 because I had an attitude while visiting him. He warned me once...I said, "whatever" and turned around...he said, "get out". I spent the night at a friends house, but I realized that my dad wasn't playing. When he says something...he means it.

Good job. Don't let anyone tell you this is YOUR fault for marrying someone younger or whatever. Your daughter is an adult. She needs to start acting like one.


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## Starstarfish

At what point do we stop making excuses for young people? At what age are you no longer a "troubled young adult?" 25? 30?

This is why we have people these days who don't work, don't go to school, and expect their parents to continue to pay their way and put up with whatever they dish out. It's a constant string of excuses about why they just can't handle life. That it's just too hard and confusing at 23 to realize that life isn't purely about them. That you didn't prepare them enough. 

At what point is someone responsible for their own choices and behavior? At what point do you stop trying to figure out what someone's "issues" are? And at what point does the behavior of an -adult- stop being blamed on their parents? (IE that you "ruined" them.)


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Starstarfish said:


> At what point do we stop making excuses for young people? At what age are you no longer a "troubled young adult?" 25? 30?


I don't think it's an excuse. It just is what it is. Some 23 year olds aren't mature enough yet. They do stupid things. You punish them, teach them, help them but it doesn't mean they are horrible people.
The girl had a party, got a little lippy. 

I'll admit to having my own experiences bias me. A homeless shelter is extreme. It's not a teaching tool so I hope the OP didn't use it as one. Keep in mind a lot of these places are filled with drugs, violence, crime. Young, and yes troubled, girls getting groomed as prostitutes, drug addicts, thieves, etc. 

It's a very last resort. 
For me personally I would want to try family counseling and set out a plan where she had X amount of time to enroll in school or find a job or she's out.


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## Runs like Dog

Deep Down said:


> @ Runs like a Dog - Is it nature or nurture? I don't think DanaS is entirely responsible for how her daughter has turned out (so far). There are plenty of families where one child is the "black sheep". I think there's a fair whack of genetic influence there, that no amount of good parenting can remove.


There's more to being a parent than 'This sh^it's not my fault'. Lots of things aren't your fault. So what?


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## Tabitha

Disclaimer--I don't have any children, so I don't know what that bond feels like. However, I was once a 23-yr old and I had parents, so.....I'm gonna comment anyway.

I sort of understand why a parent would always feel that they should always be available to help their children if they could, but it sometimes feels like (from hearing or reading about others) it is never expected to end! That daughter is well past the age that she should be able to fend for herself, and isn't that the goal of parents--to raise a child to adulthood at which point they should be responsible for their own lives, JUST LIKE THE PARENT BECAME RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN??? If said child doesn't want to grow up, and continues to be a leech on the parents, that isn't the parent's fault (assuming an attempt at a "normal" upbringing), so why does the parent have to continue to "pay"? At what point is it sink-or-swim for the adult child? That her life is HER life to live--and have dominion over--without involvement of others? 

I know I'll probably catch a lot of flack, but IRL, I keep my opinions to myself around friends and siblings with children, but I want to scream sometimes. I've heard over the years these contemporaries of mine rail against their own parents being too involved with their lives (offering up too much advice, and generally trying to--or wanting to--control them, etc.), while at the same time watching them try to control their own adult children's lives!!! WTF? Can't they see what's going on here and either have more compassion for their own parents OR lighten up on their own kids because of what they've been through themselves???

My parents were hands-off. They were good parents, but old-school, very old-school. Raise a kid and set them free--kick 'em out of the nest if you have to (mine didn't have to). Of course, they were tired of raising children by the time I came along (they had the first ones in their early 20s and I came along in mid-40s...ooops!). By the time I reached 20, I didn't want them involved, and they didn't try to be. That was the biggest gift they gave me as I looked around at other kids having this big burden on their shoulders of parents who tried to tell them what to do and otherwise steer their lives in the direction desired by the parents. I watched as some of those kids distanced themselves from parents, and a few who even "divorced" them and stopped coming around. My parents never lacked for at least one or more children to come around for holidays and b'days (even when living out of state and busy with their own lives) and never went more than a few days without at least one child calling for a long chat. They didn't ever feel the need to "buy" their children's affections or try to demand it, so it was freely given. I know I'm getting off-topic, but whatever the children do or don't do--as far as relationship with their parents later on--isn't due so much to how or what the parents do as parents but as to the unique personality of the child (or the person said child marries some day, but that's definitely another topic.....). 

OP--don't let anyone make you feel badly for what you felt you had to do for your current OWN life and household. Family counseling? Because of an otherwise normal, 23-yr-old adult "child"? Does someone's life stop being their own just because they decide to bring a child into the world? Yes, I KNOW that children (kids!) have their needs that MUST be met, and that those basic needs should always come first when an adult couple decides to bring these children into the world, but at some point.....those kids become ADULTS themselves, and the parents should expect to have their own lives back. 

Like nesting birds--you've raised the first batch and had to assist your reluctant little birdie out of the nest before you can raise the second batch. You have to look out for this new baby and the happy environment you want for it. It doesn't mean you love the older child any less--AND it's up to the young adult to make herself feel good about her new baby sister or not. No one can do it for her--or make her feel any which way. 

Wishing you the best......


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## Starstarfish

> Some 23 year olds aren't mature enough yet.


And at what point did that start being the case? Mature enough for what, exactly? To have a job? To have any sense of self-preservation or basic drive to succeed at life? To be respectful? Not everything is about whether or not someone is a "horrible person." 

Our laws are written to expect a person at 18 and at least at 21 to be able to handle themselves. If that's no longer the case, maybe we need to ponder on that.

My own experiences bias me as well. I was expected to have a job at 15. At 17, I was charged rent. Right or wrong is probably debateable. But I got through life of my own accord. Not pushed and prodded and told it was okay if I just couldn't handle life yet.

My half-brother and half-sister are coddled. They were "paid" to graduate from high school (with middling grades) with cars and expensive vacations. My sister is in her fifth year of college, she still doesn't have the credits for a major because she's spent a lot of time "discovering herself" at an expensive, private university. Her boyfriend lives with her, my parents pay their rent. Sorry at some point the whole "you aren't old enough to handle it" mentality doesn't do these kids any favors. 

Was this the best way to handle this situation? Probably not. Is the homeless shelter extreme. Sure. 

But so is this whole new "parent forever" attitude where regardless of what someone does or how they behave or what choices they make, you should be there for them and just try and love them out of it.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I wouldn't suggest that kind of leniency either. You do need rules, boundaries, punishments. There is a middle ground between your half siblings and a homeless shelter. I'm not entirely sure based on OPs posts what was tried first or how the situation was dealt with before this. Shelters are for absolute need.
If OP feels it had to be done then that is her call as a Mother but being realistic about the situation is important.

My own Mother, she wishes she had done things differently. I hope it works out for the OP and her daughter.


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## NobodySpecial

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I don't think it's an excuse. It just is what it is. Some 23 year olds aren't mature enough yet. They do stupid things. You punish them, teach them, help them but it doesn't mean they are horrible people.
> The girl had a party, got a little lippy.


I'm sorry, there is just nothing here to agree with. By 23, they should have had 23 years of understanding that lippy is not going to fly. And punishing a 23 year old? Just no. 23 is well old enough to learn from their mistakes themselves. Not have Momma "punishing" them.


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## Blossom Leigh

Human development never stops, so allowing her to feel the consequences she earned is wise no matter what her age. 

Now that she is 23 you cannot undo the raising she had, but you can continue to improve your own standards and boundaries so she clearly understands what is acceptable and unacceptable in your space with your new family.

Make amends for mistakes that are yours, but not to the extent that you lay down your expectations of NON destructive behavior in your home.


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## RoseAglow

I don't know where you live, but where I live- and especially where I've lived before- homeless shelters are not safe places. 

Well, I mean they ARE safe when compared to the alternatives for the people who end up there. They are safer than freezing forests (where I live now), park benches, highway underways- the urban settings for those who try/hope to get into a warm place vs. the risk of serious, life-threatening harm. 

But for a 23 year old lippy girl??? Someone who isn't used to that world? Close to 100% of people in a homeless shelter are desperate, and many of them also have mental illness and/or drug addiction. A young and naive girl, even if she's got an attitude, can be an easy mark. It is not a safe place for her.

If your daughter wasn't using or otherwise potentially putting you and your family at great risk, then I think you made a HUGE error here.

You can and should hold your boundaries- yes.

But there are many alternatives between "you have to go" and a tricking her into getting into a car with you and dumping her at a homeless shelter. Off the top of my head:


"Out by Friday. In your room and away from us until then."

"Here is $50 for a motel 6 room for tonight. You're own your own after that."

"Call your dad and have him come pick you up."

Drop off at Grannies. 

"You are not allowed in this house unless or until you can speak respectfully to all of us who live here."

Box up her gear. Evict if necessary. Put down the rules and have her work it out.

I am all for Tough Love when it's needed. But this isn't Tough Love. Tough Love is when you do something hard for your child's own good. Tough Love is holding one's boundaries and saying "Not Here." Tough Love is not driving their child into an unsafe place. 

Maybe the two of you, or just you, have histories where you've been in them before so going into a homeless shelter didn't seem like a rash or unusual decision. 

Or maybe where you live they aren't as scary as the ones I know of (I worked with homeless drug addicts at one point, and one of my close friends helped run an urban homeless shelter- these were not places you'd want to go unless you NEEDED to be there, and even then it was for a short a time as possible.)

But from my (admittedly armchair, stranger on the internet) perspective, this was a VERY bad move. I agree with the The Flood and suspect this is going to be a game changer for your daughter and how she looks at you, what she thinks of you. You are no longer her Mom, the one person in this world who will always have her back, who will always want to do right by her even if it ticks her off. Instead she will view you- accurately- as a Mom who would dump her in a homeless shelter if she gets lippy with her barely-older-than-her new step-dad. 

At any rate, what is done is done. If you get the opportunity, I hope the two of you can heal your relationship. You two might be able to get to a place where you both acknowledge that mistakes were made- as humans unfortunately we all make a lot of them- and you can build from there. I am speaking plainly here but I don't mean you ill will. I've made a gazillion mistakes too and as a parent I am sure I will make another gazillion. We all do the best we can. It is still important to realize though when an action was a mistake. 

I wish you well in your current pregnancy and in building/adding to your family.


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## chaos

Sometimes no matter what you do, it will not come out good. Time to let go and let her experience life's not so gentle touch.


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## Mr The Other

I am in no way qualified to offer advice or judgement. I will only say that you have another child being brought into this world and that you need to give it the best chance you can. Clearly, that would not have been possible in the environment you were in with your daughter there.


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## DadOfFour

OP, just wondering where her father is, is he alive and if you divorced, how old was she? My parents split when I was 10-11yo and it still effects me to this day. Luckily they reconciled after 12 months apart. I have been doing alot of research lately on the effects of separation and divorce on children (and even adult children) and how the effects follow them into adulthood where they can really show as well as the effects of having a parent remarry and it would be bad have a step parent that's only 5 years older then you. By no means am I saying this is your fault but it is something to think about.

Divorce research on the children in middle class families in the UK actually show that having parents divorce is more devastating to a child then having one of the parents die and the effects are even greater when the parents remarry. Please follow the link for a better look at the charts on the effects of divorce, it's very sad what some children go through.

Fatherlessness - How Children are damaged by divorce - The Times - London UK 2/5/95


How Children are damaged by divorce
The Times - London, 2/5/95, Author Ian Robertson (Ian is a senior scientist at the MRC Applied Psychology Unit in Cambridge).

When parents split up, they leave lasting emotional scars on their children.

What happens to your children if you or your partner dies? It's the kind of thought which goes through the minds of most parents now and again. As a parent you have probably taken out life insurance with such a possibility in mind, From time to time you have worried about the effect on your child - emotionally, socially and financially - of losing you or your spouse. You know that children above a certain age, never forget the death of a mother or father and you appreciate that this may affect them for the rest of their lives.

But have you thought what will happen to your children if you divorce or separate? You won't have taken out any insurance against this and probably haven't thought much about it as much as you have about the possibility of dying. This is a pity, because children are damaged much more by divorce than they are by parental death.

As many as one in three children in Britain will endure the consequences of parental divorce or separation; you can't get precise figures because almost a third of children are now born outside marriage and split-ups in these families are not officially recorded.. If it is indeed true that boys and girls whose parents split up on average suffer more permanent damage than those whose mother or father dies, then this makes family breakdown one of the great unrecognised social health problems of our time. What is the evidence?

Dr Martin Richards, who runs the Centre for Family Research at Cambridge University, is an expert on divorce. He and his colleagues have studied 17,000 children from the National Child Development Survey who were born in Britain during one week in 1958 and were followed up at the ages of 7, 11, 16 and 23.

Dr Richards and his team looked at what happened to these children as they matured into adolescence and adult-hood, comparing the ones whose mother or father had died with those whose parents had split up, in terms of education, career, health and wealth.

Although the harmful effects of divorce are apparent across all social classes, the effects on middle-class children are striking: middle-class girls were the group most damaged by divorce by the time they reached adulthood.

While the death of a mother or father before a child is 16 does have some effect on the child's life, divorce does far more damage. And if we examine, on average, the fortunes of young adults whose middle- class parents have divorced, compared with those whose parents have stayed together, the conclusions are stark. Children born of middle-class parents in 1958, who were not 16 before their parents divorced......

DIVORCE AND MIDDLE-CLASS CHILDREN
Boys.....................................Girls

*	*	*	*	*	*	*	*
*	*	*	3	*	*	*	*
*	*	*	*	*	*	*	*
*	*	*	*	*	*	*	*
*	*	*	*	*	*	*	*
*	*	*	*	*	*	*	*
*	*	*	*	*	*	*	*
*	*	*	*	*	*	*	*
%	Parents
together	Parent
died	Parents
divorced	Parents
together	Parent
died	Parents
divorced
Left school at 16 48 52 75 47 55 77
Not in full-time work 18 18 24 32 32 55
Living in council house 4 8 18 4 11 18
Regular smokers 36 29 58 32 36 42
......AND HOW FURTHER EDUCATION SUFFERS

%	Parents together	Parent died	Parents divorced
Go to university 31 27 19
Age 23 no qualifications 11 14 19
had twice the chance of leaving school without any qualifications (boys and girls)
had two thirds the chance of going to university (boys and girls)
were a third more likely not to have a full-time job at age 23 (boys)
were two-thirds more likely not to have a full-time job at age 23 (girls)
were four times more likely to be living in a council house at age 23 (boys and girls)
were two-thirds more likely to be a regular smoker age 23 (boys)
were a third more likely to be a regular smoker age 23 (girls)
Taking children of middle and working-class parents together, children of divorced parents were:

twice as likely to have a child before age 20
twice as likely to be married or living with someone before age 20
Dr Richard's research also found that children whose parents had divorced were on average less emotionally stable, left home earlier and divorced or separated more frequently. They showed more behavioral problems in school, were more likely to be unhappy and worried and were poorer at reading and arithmetic.

At the Cavendish Laboratory, Cambridge, where Rutherford once split the atom, Dr Richards and his colleagues now study the splitting of families. "Low self-esteem may underlie a lot of these effects," he says.

"Death of a parent doesn't produce the same problems. The critical thing seems to be children's awareness that parents have, through choice, separated, and for many this means a parent choosing to leave them."

The resulting sense of abandonment, Dr Richards says, can haunt children into adulthood, leading them to undervalue their own worth, lack self-confidence and hence enter too rapidly into serious yet potentially vulnerable relationships at an early age.

"As a university teacher I see that even when children have left home and are in their early twenties, their parent's separation or divorce can be very disturbing for them. Adolescents are particularly vulnerable, probably for similar reasons: at a point when they are learning about relationships, they see the most important relationship in their lives fall apart."

The differences between those whose parents have and have not divorced are most striking in young adult women from middle-class families. One reason for this may be that these women tend to embark on serious partnerships at an early age - perhaps seeking emotional security and stability which their parents' divorce had denied them. As a result of having children so early, these middle-class young women miss the chance of going to university, and with that the career, income and fulfillment which they might have expected.

But the negative effects of divorce are not confined to young middle-class women - no class or gender is spared. Children whose parents have divorced are more likely to show symptoms of being unhappy and worried than children from intact families: for instance, divorced mothers more often report that their child worries about many things; is upset by new situations; is bullied by other children; is miserable or tearful; prefers to do things alone. This is true both at age seven and at age 16.

Children of divorced parents also tend to misbehave more than those from intact families, again at both ages. they are more likely to be rated by their mothers as: being disobedient at home; fighting with other children; being irritable and quick to fly off the handle; destroying others belongings' being squirmy or fidgety; having difficulty settling to anything.

The majority of children of divorced parents end up living with their mothers, but if their mothers remarry the children tend to show more problems than those who stay single. "Particularly for adolescents, it is very difficult to come to terms with a parent dating again," Dr Richards says. He argues that good and regular contact with the absent father can reduce some of the ill-effects of separation, even though this may be at the expense of increased conflict between the parents: the sad fact however, is that a half of all divorced fathers lose contact with their children within two years.

Dr Richards, 55, is himself a divorcee. "I was 21 when I married, but we were too young and it didn't last. We had no children." And now? "I have grown-up children, but have never remarried." Divorce and family conflict can blight the lives of children - though it is important to remember that all the statistics available are average effects and clearly there are many children who fare well when their parents separate. Furthermore, until the present generation of children have grown up, we will not know whether the effects of divorce will be as bad as they were for the children of 1958.

Children survive best where good contact is maintained with both parents. "Many children learn that their parents are separating from a third party. Parents often do not talk to them and ask them what they want."

And what do they want? Dr Richards pauses for a second. "They almost always say they only want one thing," he replies. "That their parents should stay together.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I do agree that her underlying pain should be acknowledged and your own role in that considered. It is why I said, make amends where needed, but her choice of poor behavior does not have to be accepted.


----------



## Miss Independent

Dana, why did you trick her? Why didn't you just ask her to leave your house?


----------



## DoF

I would've drop her ass off at the homeless shelter within 2 weeks-month after letting her move in.

You are doing just fine OP. Keep up the good work!


----------



## DanaS

spinsterdurga said:


> Dana, why did you trick her? Why didn't you just ask her to leave your house?


I was just so mad at her that I wanted her out right then and I knew if I told her to leave she'd refuse and complain, leaving me the only option if I really wanted her out to call the police. I figured a homeless shelter would be better than getting arrested. 

Yesterday I did call her but she didn't pick up but later sent a text saying she doesn't want to talk to me. 

What else can I do? She refuses to work fast food jobs and acts superior to everyone.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

She is behind the curve and needs to get up to speed for sure.


----------



## Miss Independent

DanaS said:


> I was just so mad at her that I wanted her out right then and I knew if I told her to leave she'd refuse and complain, leaving me the only option if I really wanted her out to call the police. I figured a homeless shelter would be better than getting arrested.
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday I did call her but she didn't pick up but later sent a text saying she doesn't want to talk to me.
> 
> 
> 
> What else can I do? She refuses to work fast food jobs and acts superior to everyone.



She'd refuse to leave your house? I don't want to disrespectful but maybe you need to look at the way YOU raised her. If either of my parents tell me to leave, I would. You didn't exercise your authority. In my opinion, it was kind of low to LIE to get her to leave. My mother lost my respect by being a liar. 

I wouldn't want to talk to you either.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Dana- was her Dad able to take her? Or another relative?


----------



## DanaS

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Dana- was her Dad able to take her? Or another relative?


Her father lives 3 states away and she's po'd most of her relatives as her friends so I highly doubt it.


----------



## DanaS

spinsterdurga said:


> She'd refuse to leave your house? I don't want to disrespectful but maybe you need to look at the way YOU raised her. If either of my parents tell me to leave, I would. You didn't exercise your authority. In my opinion, it was kind of low to LIE to get her to leave. My mother lost my respect by being a liar.
> 
> I wouldn't want to talk to you either.


Believe me, had I told her to leave she would've made a HUGE stink over it and fight it tooth and nail, even had she left the streets or a homeless shelter would've been the only places for her to go. 

And I raised my daughter the best way I knew how. But I could only do so much with her father's horrible influence, she's practically my husbands protege. But I am sure you're a PERFECT mother that raised/is raising PERFECT children. Yeah, right.


----------



## Miss Independent

DanaS;11425746 . But I am sure you're a PERFECT mother that raised/is raising PERFECT children. Yeah said:


> . I'm 21, and I don't have any children. I'm sorry if I offended you. However, I think that you are putting all the blame on your daughter. I don't understand why her and your ex are to blame for her lack of respect for you. I wouldn't like a step father that's closer to my age either.


----------



## sisters359

While it is possible that this is just "attitude," it honestly sounds like she has some type of mental illness/personality disorder--and you seem aware of it, because you mentioned her lack of empathy and the fact that she seems to have behaved badly enough to be without friends or family willing to put up with her. That is not just "spoiled." Being unable to maintain relationships, seeing one's self as "too good" for certain jobs (with no basis in reality--no special skills, talent, or training), and feeling superior to all others--well, I'm no mental health diagnostician, but those are serious warning signs.

None of this helps you decide what to do, of course, and you have a lot on your plate--new spouse, pregnancy/new baby, a job and/or household to maintain. 

I'd encourage you to read up on coping with adult children with mental illness--learn what resources, strategies, and tactics are available and effective, and decide on a course of action. If she refuses to accept treatment (and I'd bet good money she refuses--assuming she decides to talk to you again, which she probably will do once she thinks she has "punished" you enough), then your choices are more limited, but perhaps you can consider maintaining her in a home of sorts while insisting on certain behaviors as the "price" of your financial support. Putting some distance between you (not living together, if possible), limiting visits, and setting boundaries for behavior while together might be enough to let you live in relative peace. It is very difficult to parent a child with mental health issues, no matter the child's age. 

If money is too tight, then maybe setting rules for when she can use the kitchen, be in the living room, etc., would work--hard to say. But at least she knows you WILL put her out--you've done it once before. Following through on consequences is the most difficult part, but it is also the most essential part. She may not change much (especially without therapy), but if you can know she is safe without having her in your face most of the time, it will be easier to handle. 

Good luck, whatever you decide.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I think sisters makes a good point about a mental illness. Has she even been evaluated?
How long has it been since the divorce? What kind of custody did you and the ex have?


----------



## bravenewworld

DanaS said:


> Believe me, had I told her to leave she would've made a HUGE stink over it and fight it tooth and nail, even had she left the streets or a homeless shelter would've been the only places for her to go.
> 
> And I raised my daughter the best way I knew how. *But I could only do so much with her father's horrible influence, she's practically my husbands protege.* But I am sure you're a PERFECT mother that raised/is raising PERFECT children. Yeah, right.


But who chose to procreate with a "horrible" person? :scratchhead:

I don't think you were wrong for wanting her out, but I do think you went about it entirely the wrong way. The admitted lying, immaturity, and passive aggressiveness on your part lead me to believe you have caused some of the problems in this fractured relationship. 

Your daughters feelings regarding your husband are understandable, however, she had no business expressing them to either of you ESPECIALLY since she was living with you and relying on your charity. Don't bite the hand that feeds you and all that jazz. 

OP I'm honestly not trying to be snarky, but 30 years from now when you may be in a position of needing care - who is most likely to be there for you? Your second husband 20 years your junior, or your own child? 

I don't think you need to accept your daughter living with you or being disrespectful, but I do think you need to apologize for the way you kicked her out and really examine how you got into a headspace where that seemed like a plausible decision.


----------



## Deep Down

Some people are just different. It's easy to lay blame on DanaS for this, but I can understand how difficult it could be for DanaS. Her daughter is an adult, and at some point needs to stand on her own 2 feet.

Stepfamilies are a different issue. My H moved in when my D was 14, and let me tell you she didn't like it one bit. She let him and me know in no uncertain terms. It was really tough for about 5 years. Kids past puberty usually do not accept stepparents well no matter what their age is. 

Your H's age is a red herring, I believe. 

Your D was hopeful she could have her way at your place, regardless of what you and H might have been planning. And probably thought she could guilt you and H into allowing her to do that. Imagine if she was doing this with a baby in the house?

I'm with you DanaS, she may well thank you for it later.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DanaS

Direct VERY firm, but kind assertiveness would have been the better choice. This rupture with your daughter is repairable, sooner than later. If it were me I would text her today and tell her "Daughter, I apologize for not choosing a more direct firm assertive way to let you know that I am no longer tolerating abusive attitudes in my home. I am committing to choosing better in the future and I am asking you to do the same, starting with... Xyz. I know you are not ready to forgive me for my choice and that's ok. I love you deeply even when it doesn't feel like it and I will wait til you are ready. In the mean time I am rooting for you in building your future."


----------



## NextTimeAround

Mr The Other said:


> I am in no way qualified to offer advice or judgement. I will only say that you have another child being brought into this world and that you need to give it the best chance you can. Clearly, that would not have been possible in the environment you were in with your daughter there.


This post bothers me. As if to say, oh well, if you don't like the way the first one turned out, pretend it's dead and start again.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

NextTimeAround said:


> This post bothers me. As if to say, oh well, if you don't like the way the first one turned out, pretend it's dead and start again.


I didn't take his post that way. He is saying her older daughter was creating a dangerous environment with the youngest daughter and the oldest daughters's removal is necessary to ensure safety of the youngest one, but that does not mean he is saying to pretend the oldest one is dead. That protecting the environment of the youngest one was the right call since it is the most vulnerable of all the family members.


----------



## DoF

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Dana- was her Dad able to take her? Or another relative?


THis is not OP's problem.

Her daughter is a MATURE ADULT that needs to take care of herself and pull her own weight.

Telling her to rely on someone else does NOT resolve this issue.

She will have to learn the hard way. Don't worry OP, within next 5-10 years she will come around and realize her mistakes etc.

Give her time, let her learn on her own. Let's face it, most of us don't really have a clue until late 20s/early 30s....and some NEVER get to that point (let's be optimistic and hope your daughter is not that person).

Sorry but I only offer help to loved ones that truly need it. Your daughter took advantage of you and used you.

Time to cut her off.


----------



## Satya

We can't always have the gift of foresight when it comes to people in our lives, partners or children. We can't predict how they may change. 

Dana, I don't judge you based on your decisions (not my place) but I commend you for following through after what seemed to be an exhaustion of other avenues/options. In my opinion that is the best you could have done under the circumstances. There is going to be disagreement about the execution but what you did, I have been begging my mother to do with my younger (early 20s) brother for years. She can't let go yet wants him to act like an adult. Her inability to do the hard stuff has stunted his development and made him fear everything unknown. I am a go-getter and insisted upon independence since 16. It has wisened me up to the world in many respects. 

Good luck with everything.


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## AVR1962

Have you thought of going to counseling sessions with your daughter so that the two of you can work out the issues together? It is a tragedy that you felt you had to take your daughter to a shelter. I could not do that to my child. I have a daughter that has literally put me thru the wringer yet I could not put her out on the street.

I personally am not a child of divorce but my older children are and it is not easy for them, even as adults. My children (now adults) have watched as their dad has made all kinds of crazy decisions with his life and they come back to me with their hurts from his choices. 

Your daughter has a right to her feelings and as hard as this might be for you to do, you need to listen to her and understand her. You need to try to work this out with her. I do not think you really want to lose your daughter. If my parents took me to some homeless shelter I am not sure I would ever talk to them. Parental love is supposed to be unconditional, and if I were in your daughter's shoes I would not find this a representation of unconditional love.

I know you are looking for support here and there will be many parents who will tell you that you did the right thing, she needs to grown up.

Homeless shelters are not a safe place for a 23 year old girl to be and if she feels you are not available to her she very easily could become desperate and take up with some man to support her that will not treat her well.

Please understand where your daughter is coming from. Seek counselling with her and do not wage a war against her. This is not health.


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## MaritimeGuy

If the girl was 16 I think it would be a different story. This girl is 23. Time to learn actions have consequences. Disrespect your mothers rules in her own home and you are not free to live there...simple as that. Having burned the bridges of pretty much anyone who would be in a position to help her is going to come home to roost now. It will be a painful lesson...but apparently one she needs to learn the hard way. 

My girlfriend kicked her daughter out a number of years ago. The girl had failed out of university three times...stopped attending actually...after mom and dad plunked down the money for tuition and accommodation. She moved back home to some basic rules...no food in her room (scraps were invariably left there attracting pests) and no smoking in the house. She was given three strikes and of course quickly used them all up. It was the hardest thing my girlfriend ever did and she spent a lot of sleepless nights over it. 

Her daughter immediately swore she would never talk to her again and that she would never see any future grandchildren...obviously trying to push some buttons...quite effectively I might add. 

It didn't take long before they were talking again. Her daughter eventually figured out what side her bread is buttered on.

These decisions are tough and I hope I never have to make them myself. I don't believe you should enable your child forever though. Barring serious illness or accident at some point they will not have you take care of them and they will have to go it on their own.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

spinsterdurga said:


> . I'm 21, and I don't have any children. I'm sorry if I offended you. However, I think that you are putting all the blame on your daughter. I don't understand why her and your ex are to blame for her lack of respect for you. I wouldn't like a step father that's closer to my age either.


Then you do the respectful thing and stay the hell out of their house, and dont ask for anything. Simple as that. It sounds like he is a good husband to the OP and that is what matters, not how old/young he is.


----------



## Miss Independent

3Xnocharm said:


> Then you do the respectful thing and stay the hell out of their house, and dont ask for anything. Simple as that. It sounds like he is a good husband to the OP and that is what matters, not how old/young he is.



This thread is not about me. For the record, I wouldn't live with my mother if she was married to a man closer to my age and would NEVER forgive the tricking. My post was about her relationship with her daughter and NOT her relationship with her husband. I'm not questioning her relationship with her husband.


----------



## DoF

AVR1962 said:


> Have you thought of going to counseling sessions with your daughter so that the two of you can work out the issues together? It is a tragedy that you felt you had to take your daughter to a shelter. I could not do that to my child. I have a daughter that has literally put me thru the wringer yet I could not put her out on the street.
> 
> I personally am not a child of divorce but my older children are and it is not easy for them, even as adults. My children (now adults) have watched as their dad has made all kinds of crazy decisions with his life and they come back to me with their hurts from his choices.
> 
> Your daughter has a right to her feelings and as hard as this might be for you to do, you need to listen to her and understand her. You need to try to work this out with her. I do not think you really want to lose your daughter. If my parents took me to some homeless shelter I am not sure I would ever talk to them. Parental love is supposed to be unconditional, and if I were in your daughter's shoes I would not find this a representation of unconditional love.
> 
> I know you are looking for support here and there will be many parents who will tell you that you did the right thing, she needs to grown up.
> 
> Homeless shelters are not a safe place for a 23 year old girl to be and if she feels you are not available to her she very easily could become desperate and take up with some man to support her that will not treat her well.
> 
> Please understand where your daughter is coming from. Seek counselling with her and do not wage a war against her. This is not health.


I don't agree with this, at all.

There is no such a thing as "unconditional love".

If your kid kills someone or your loved one....your other child let's say.....will you still love them?

If your husband sleeps around....will you still love them?

Love is ALWAYS conditional and always will be. Unconditional love is the stuff of fairytale or hollywood. It does not exist in real world (to an extent of course).

OP already gave her daughter a chance and environment to thrive in, # of times (from what I read)......and her daughter decides to screw her over/disrespect her and use her every step of the way.

Drastic times call for drastic measures. Sorry, but I believe in tough love.

Some people ONLY learn the hard way.


----------



## Miss Independent

Dana, I'm NOT saying that you were wrong to kick her out. What I'm saying is that you were wrong to trick her. You should have demanded that she leaves and throw her out if she didn't instead of tricking her.


----------



## Miss Independent

DoF said:


> Sorry, but I believe in tough love.
> .



Tough love is demanding that she leaves and employing drastic measures if she doesn't. Tricking her is in a way avoiding conflict. I don't see it as tough love sorry. If I was in her daughter's shoes, I would see it as her trying to hurt me in a way. I've volunteered at homeless shelter, and I'm pretty sure that everyone knows that they are not safe.


----------



## AVR1962

DoF said:


> I don't agree with this, at all.
> 
> There is no such a thing as "unconditional love".
> 
> If your kid kills someone or your loved one....your other child let's say.....will you still love them?
> 
> If your husband sleeps around....will you still love them?
> 
> Love is ALWAYS conditional and always will be. Unconditional love is the stuff of fairytale or hollywood. It does not exist in real world (to an extent of course).
> 
> OP already gave her daughter a chance and environment to thrive in, # of times (from what I read)......and her daughter decides to screw her over/disrespect her and use her every step of the way.
> 
> Drastic times call for drastic measures. Sorry, but I believe in tough love.
> 
> Some people ONLY learn the hard way.


Think what you may but there is such a thing as unconditional love. We do not love our spouse, or friends or our parents unconditionally but parents (not all) do love their children unconditionally. Do you think the men in prison for murder or rape are not loved by their parents?? Some may have turned their backs but many will not, they will love their child regardless of the action.


----------



## DoF

AVR1962 said:


> Think what you may but there is such a thing as unconditional love. We do not love our spouse, or friends or our parents unconditionally but parents (not all) do love their children unconditionally. Do you think the men in prison for murder or rape are not loved by their parents?? Some may have turned their backs but many will not, they will love their child regardless of the action.


First, I do have 4 kids, so I know what you are talking about.

LOVE is defined by ACTION. If my son was to murder my wife, I would no longer love him (mind you, I am a very emotional/sensitive guy).

No, I will not love my child regardless of their action. If their action is opposite of love....they will get no love from me.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

spinsterdurga said:


> This thread is not about me. For the record, I wouldn't live with my mother if she was married to a man closer to my age and would NEVER forgive the tricking. My post was about her relationship with her daughter and NOT her relationship with her husband. I'm not questioning her relationship with her husband.


Oh boo hoo, so mom tricked her. She did what she had to do..if daughter wasnt such a defiant brat at 23 years of age, it wouldnt have needed to be done. Sometimes as parents, we have to do really hard sh!t for the good of our families. 

And "for the record", if your mom married someone close to your age, shame on you if you arent a big enough person to be glad for her that she found someone to love and to make her happy. I had a stepson who was only six years younger than me, and we had an awesome relationship while his dad and I were together. I was more of a mom to him than his real mom was, and he and I STILL have a relationship to this day, even though his dad and I divorced and no longer talk.


----------



## Miss Independent

3Xnocharm said:


> if daughter wasnt such a defiant brat at 23 years of age, it wouldnt have needed to be done.
> 
> .



Oh So it's the daughter's fault that her mother didn't have the gut to ask her to leave? Ok😳


----------



## bravenewworld

Sounds like the daughter was behaving like an ass-hat and did need to leave, I just disagree with the way it was handled. 

Better options: Giver her at least a 1 week notice, or help her apply for low-income housing/Job Corp, or buy her a bus ticket to her dad's or another relatives. Then wash your hands. 

Tricking her and then driving her to a homeless shelter for being lippy - really???


----------



## kokonatsu

spinsterdurga said:


> Oh So it's the daughter's fault that her mother didn't have the gut to ask her to leave? Ok😳


well, from my understanding of the situation and the daughter's attitude, the daughter wouldn't have left if simply asked. 

so what would you then recommend happens if mom asks the daughter to leave, and the daughter simply refuses? how can they keep their relationship while each having their own seemingly opposing boundaries?


----------



## bravenewworld

kokonatsu said:


> well, from my understanding of the situation and the daughter's attitude, the daughter wouldn't have left if simply asked.
> 
> so what would you then recommend happens if mom asks the daughter to leave, and the daughter simply refuses? how can they keep their relationship while each having their own seemingly opposing boundaries?


By having her own boundaries and enforcing them with clarity and kindness. 

"Daughter, we have discussed xyz and yet I've seen no improvement. You have until the end of the week/month/whatever to find suitable housing. Here's a few pamphlets on job resources, food stamps, and low income housing assistance. Whatever the outcome is, you will need to be out of here by XYZ date. 

If you do not leave, refuse to leave, or become aggressive - I will unfortunately be forced to formally remove you from my home involving whatever resources I need, including law enforcement. Please do not test me, because I will do it. 

As an adult, it is time for you to stand on your own two feet. I hope your leaving will improve your quality of life and our relationship. No matter what, I love you."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

bravenewworld said:


> By having boundaries.
> 
> "Daughter, we have discussed xyz and yet I've seen no improvement. You have until the end of the week/month/whatever to find suitable housing. Here's a few pamphlets on job resources, food stamps, and low income housing assistance. Whatever the outcome is, you will need to be out of here by XYZ date.
> 
> If you do not leave, refuse to leave, or become aggressive - I will unfortunately be forced to formally remove you from my home involve whatever resources I need, including law enforcement. Please do not test me, because I will do it.
> 
> I hope your leaving will improve your quality of life and our relationship. No matter what, I love you."


Yep... soft as possible BUT firm as necessary... great balance.


----------



## the guy

spinsterdurga said:


> She'd refuse to leave your house? I don't want to disrespectful but maybe you need to look at the way YOU raised her. If either of my parents tell me to leave, I would. You didn't exercise your authority. In my opinion, it was kind of low to LIE to get her to leave. My mother lost my respect by being a liar.
> 
> I wouldn't want to talk to you either.


I did a sh1tty job raising my two kids and they turned out better then me.

My point is their comes a time when your kids make a choice in life...good or bad...I'm just glad mine didn't turn out like me.

Granted they had other influences in their young lives that directed them away from drugs, crime and jail/prison.

I'm no expert but who the hell knows why your kid turned out the way she did...at the end of the day it was her choice to be a phuck up.


----------



## DanaS

I see what you all are saying, I guess at that point I was just so frustrated I wanted her out right then and didn't want to deal with any arguments. 

Just so you know I did call her but she didn't answer then I texted her but she never replied, and that was 4 hours ago. I told her I am sorry if she feels I abandoned her and I love her and really want to work things out.

Oh, and intheory I was a little perturbed when you said


> At some level, your young daughter is probably a threat to you sexually now. I know that sounds disgusting. And, believe me, this is all on a subconscious level; ancient instincts and so forth.


I absolutely do not feel any kind of jealousy or feel sexually threatened by my daughter thank you very much!


----------



## Mr The Other

spinsterdurga said:


> She'd refuse to leave your house? I don't want to disrespectful but maybe you need to look at the way YOU raised her. If either of my parents tell me to leave, I would. You didn't exercise your authority. In my opinion, it was kind of low to LIE to get her to leave. My mother lost my respect by being a liar.
> 
> I wouldn't want to talk to you either.


The OP does not a written kicking at this point. Particularly from someone who is relying of supposition.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DanaS said:


> I told her I am sorry if she feels I abandoned her and I love her and really want to work things out.


Is this the full extent of what was said?


----------



## Anonymous07

intheory said:


> This forum is too limited an arena to get into the nitty-gritty of why your daughter is so troubled. And why she has not successfully become an adult.
> 
> Of course, how she was raised by both you and her father will account for much of it. Being a brat when eating cookies at six-years-old doesn't mean much really.
> 
> You have moved on. You have a newer marriage and are about to become a mother again.
> 
> Of course that is your priority now. Your daughter is yesterday's news. Yesterday's *bad* news.
> 
> I understand you (and your husband) being hurt and frustrated by her behavior. She's rude and reckless.
> 
> She sounds anchorless. Mom's new guy is of an age to be her boyfriend/husband. Let's be honest, right?
> 
> Very weird psychologically for her.
> 
> And for you too. You are 44, your husband 28. Your body is now 6 months pregnant.
> 
> At some level, your young daughter is probably a threat to you sexually now. I know that sounds disgusting. And, believe me, this is all on a subconscious level; ancient instincts and so forth.
> 
> Some part of you wants her out of the picture. And it's understandable.
> 
> I don't think you should have tricked her into getting into a car and then dropping her off at an insane asylum, sorry "homeless shelter". (Those places are scary and intense).
> 
> Okay and natural to want to protect your new life. But you can't just throw away your old one.
> 
> I don't know what to advise you to do to repair your relationship with your daughter. I just wish that you could.


:iagree:

I think it was a bad move to trick her and drop her off at a homeless shelter because if you have ever been to one, they are bad news(huge amounts of mental illness, drugs, etc.). That is not the place to leave your daughter, no matter how rude/disrespectful she was behaving. You are forever her parent, even if it seems like you want to replace her with a new family(in a way, it can come off like that). 

Although since that is already done and you can't change what you did, I do hope you reach out to her to correct your mistake. I would apologize for tricking her and kicking her out in the manner that you did. I would also set up boundaries and extend an offer to her to come live at home again if she can do x,y,z(be respectful, have a job, etc>). Family counseling would also be a good idea if she can agree to it. I think it is going take a lot of time to pick up the pieces from this because the pain and hurt from this situation is a lot to deal with. I do hope your relationship with your daughter can be repaired.


----------



## DanaS

Well my daughter sent me a text saying she was staying at one of her ex bfs apartment. They did not end well and I wouldn't see him letting her stay, she must've used some convincing! 

I told her again how sorry I was and would she please call and we'll talk but again, no reply.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Thats too weak Dana... Stop begging her.


----------



## the guy

DanaS said:


> Well my daughter sent me a text saying she was staying at one of her ex bfs apartment. They did not end well and I wouldn't see him letting her stay, she must've used some convincing!
> 
> I told her again how sorry I was and would she please call and we'll talk but again, no reply.


Why do you keep telling her your sorry?

What are you sorry for....cleaning up her mess after her party?

You should have thanked her for checking in! A small sign of respect on her part. 

At least she still loves you enough to hate you.


----------



## CantePe

spinsterdurga said:


> She'd refuse to leave your house? I don't want to disrespectful but maybe you need to look at the way YOU raised her. If either of my parents tell me to leave, I would. You didn't exercise your authority. In my opinion, it was kind of low to LIE to get her to leave. My mother lost my respect by being a liar.
> 
> I wouldn't want to talk to you either.


Judgemental much? You and none of us have the full spectrum of history on either Dana or her *23* year old daughter. 23, twenty three...sorry but I grew up a latch key kid from 8 years old on. If one of my kids at 23 pulled that crap I'd have done the same thing. Mind you I'd have said grab your crap and haul your arse to the local homeless shelter.

Love my kids, and I am their parent not their friend. Sometimes tough love truly is the only option.

And it is none of her business as an adult who her mother marries. Has a relationship with as long as it is between two consenting adults.


----------



## EleGirl

DanaS said:


> Well my daughter sent me a text saying she was staying at one of her ex bfs apartment. They did not end well and I wouldn't see him letting her stay, she must've used some convincing!
> 
> I told her again how sorry I was and would she please call and we'll talk but again, no reply.


There are tough love organizations and support groups. you might benefit from finding one in your area to help you navigate this with your daughter.


----------



## DanaS

Blossom Leigh said:


> Thats too weak Dana... Stop begging her.


What do you mean? After many here stated I was wrong to get her out the way I did and where it seems as if I am the bad guy. So shouldn't I apologize?


----------



## DanaS

EleGirl said:


> There are tough love organizations and support groups. you might benefit from finding one in your area to help you navigate this with your daughter.


Maybe if she'd talk to me. 

Two months ago we threw a birthday party for her. I bought her a new iPad and my husband bought her a new Nintendo 3DS with a few games. 

It would sure be nice if she would at least show a little appreciation for all the things she's been given since she has to now rely on the charity of others. 

Even at her age, a fast food job may definitely be pretty bottom of the barrel, but it's a job and she needs to grow up.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DanaS said:


> What do you mean? After many here stated I was wrong to get her out the way I did and where it seems as if I am the bad guy. So shouldn't I apologize?


Go back and look at how I said you should apologize and look at the difference. My approach is an apology within a restated boundary/standard.

"I may not have handled this right, but going forward I expect things to be different" 

You must state your standard and own where you could have done it different. It gives her two things: 1. The idea that she is to respect you and 2. That you are a human being willing to take ownership where you need to take it and you expect the same from her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Blossom Leigh said:


> DanaS
> 
> Direct VERY firm, but kind assertiveness would have been the better choice. This rupture with your daughter is repairable, sooner than later. If it were me I would text her today and tell her "Daughter, I apologize for not choosing a more direct firm assertive way to let you know that I am no longer tolerating abusive attitudes in my home. I am committing to choosing better in the future and I am asking you to do the same, starting with... Xyz. I know you are not ready to forgive me for my choice and that's ok. I love you deeply even when it doesn't feel like it and I will wait til you are ready. In the mean time I am rooting for you in building your future."


----------



## Miss Taken

I think people need to drop the tricking her into the car ride/homeless shelter bit. 

Burned bridges she may have but almost anyone - especially manipulative people can find some place to go outside of a shelter. 

I just think back when my sister was on drugs. When one door closed in her face (quite often due to pretty egregious actions on her part like stealing thousands of dollars for drug money of family and friends), she sweet talked a new one open. There is a sucker born every minute and always someone more naive, vulnerable, giving etc. to suck in. Addicts are manipulative, entitled brats of any age are too. Though not exactly the same and not a drug addict, something tells me Dana's daughter is not exactly a shrinking violet either. Case in point, she has convinced an ex into taking her in. So she's not even at a shelter. Even if she was not currently flopping at her ex's I bet she'd have found another sofa.

Dana, the only thing you should feel, if at all sorry for is the deception. However the underlying lesson of you disrespect me and my husband, don't abide by house rules or get a job or contribute = you can not live here is extremely valid. So stop apologizing. 

I find your readiness to apologize to her more troubling than kicking her out personally. Especially if these issues are something you've been dealing with, with her for a long time. I can't blame you for being the first to reach out to check in on her though. Although I said not to in my initial post. I think most mothers would. I think I would. A wellness check on your part is fine. Kissing her ass is not. She has made this bed. We may not all agree on _how _the consequences were laid down but once you set a consequence, you need to stick by it. By apologizing, so much you are giving her the upper hand here. Not just to her but you're telling yourself you're double-guessing yourself. If she hears that message, she's not going to look at her actions that brought both of you here in the first place. I think it will only add to her sense of entitlement.


As for the "well you raised her" arguments I just say, yes and...? Of course it's good to look at where one has fvcked up along the way, especially since you're ready to parent again with a new child. However, at some point adults (Dana's daughter is an adult) need to rise above their raising and take personal responsibility for themselves. Looking at the past so that you may do better in the future is great and productive but looking at the past so as to excuse away or minimize current dysfunction will only keep Dana and her daughter stuck.

You can't use the past as a crutch for your perpetual failures as an adult forever. Besides, you can have two children growing up in the exactly same circumstances and produce two completely different results. 

I grew up in the same environment as my sister. I took a distinctly different life path from her. I've never dared touch a hard street drug, nor would I know where to acquire them if I wanted to (which I never had). She unfortunately lost ten+ years of her life to them. I graduated college with honours, up until three years ago, my sister had a seventh grade education. Even if we had a perfect mother/childhood who did everything right, there is a still a great chance that we would have taken different routes from each other. I see it even on my in-law's side with their three kids. Anyway, I think Dana has had her parenting brow-beaten enough at this point. We should be focusing on what the next steps should be in this situation. At this point, I don't think running to her daughter all teary eyed and apologetic will help turn this around.

My sister and I now have a wonderful relationship that we've been building from the ground up since she got sober three years ago and started straightening up her life. That wasn't the case when she was on drugs. It couldn't be the case for my sake, for my child's sake. She was a danger to my emotional, financial and dare I say physical health (the last time I saw her besides our reunion last fall, she assaulted me when I was pregnant with my first-born son). 

Though not on drugs, Dana's daughter is still acting badly, in such a way that a positive, healthy relationship cannot happen. For the interim, the gravy train has to leave the station much like it had to leave when my sister was on drugs and acting erratically. 

If this were me, I'd like to think that I would make the wellness check but that's where I would stop. I still spoke to my sister after she assaulted me. I still emailed her, tried to reach her at her last known address to know she was alive because I worried about her. However I never physically saw her. Despite her begging, I never gave her a cent. I also told her to never try to come to my home as she was not welcome here (at this point she had been involved in burglaries and had stolen hundreds from me and $15,000 from our Uncle and his fiance who had taken her in and had developed quite the rap-sheet going in and out of jail). I also didn't want her in and out of my son's life, confusing him as she had been in and out of mine. I set boundaries about when she was and wasn't allowed to call me and also, if she got abusive or erratic on the phone with me, (which she did frequently while she was high) I hung up on her. Not trying to thread-jack but writing this to explain the kind of boundaries I had to set with her in order not to enable or be sucked in and be part of the problem.

During that time, it was hard for me. I so badly wanted a sister in my life and I was hard on her but I never once stopped loving her albeit from afar. Once SHE decided she had enough and wanted to change (and change she did) I was back in her life first a small step at a time and then full-force and one of her biggest cheerleaders in her recovery. Now she texts me several times a week, calls at least once and I welcome those calls. When we reunited this past fall it was definitely the right time and I was proud to introduce her to my sons and my sons just adore her and she them. I hate to think what'd it have been like for them had I let her in when she was a full-fledged addict. 

Writing this I realize Dana's daughter is not as extreme as my sister was but I think it's worth bringing up the kinds of steps one can/should take in a broader, more general sense when dealing with a dysfunctional relative whether it be son/daughter, sister or brother. You can help until you have nothing left to give but it only goes so far so long as the person isn't willing to also help themselves. 

In short (sorry I know this is a long post), I think checking up on your daughter is fine. Apologizing needs to stop. Extending an invitation to talk is fine. Letting her brow-beat or blame you is not. I would start setting boundaries now, write them down if you have to. Make a plan for what you will do/say if/when XYZ happens or is said. I think letting her move back in right now would be a mistake. She needs to be "hungry" enough to go out there and get a job and start taking care of herself. If you want to help her financially or otherwise, I think it's natural to want to do that but she needs to be actively helping herself. Point her towards employment agencies, temp agencies, job ads. If you do give her money at the very least, have requirements she needs to make in order to get that money such as 15 job applications and proof thereof before she gets a penny out of you. 

Ideally, you should plan out what your boundaries/plans are hypothetically BEFORE you are confronted with them in person so that you are not caught off guard when they happen and backslide.


----------



## Blondilocks

DanaS said:


> What do you mean? After many here stated I was wrong to get her out the way I did and where it seems as if I am the bad guy. So shouldn't I apologize?


You did nothing wrong in my book. No, you shouldn't apologize. She's 23 not 16.

You have a baby on the way and don't need this stress. Let her solve her own problems - that's what adults do.


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## Blossom Leigh

I agree with them Dana... If you have a choice between apology and boundaries I pick boundaries FIRST, then apology. My style mentioned earlier blends the two by making it CLEAR that boundaries will not be laid down even IF you make a mistake. Those remain static, so I will add to the lovely ladies here that those boundaries are non negotiables... and need to be in the forefront of ANY apology if you have to choose between the two. 

I like to blend mine, but that's just me


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## jorgegene

I was raised in a family of four kids. Two brothers and a sister.
Same parents, still married, pretty much raised the same way.
Not perfectly by any means, but always love and plenty to eat.

My older Brother was a model son. Straight 'A's in school, never in any trouble, went on to get his phD from Stanford. My Sister went bonkers in her teenage years, drugs, partying, multiple arrests, got kicked out of school; you get the idea. My younger brother went bonkers too. I was kind of in between. A short 2-3 year rebellion, but nothing too bad. Got my act together and took it on the road.

My point? We all turn out different. Parents only have so much control over how their kids turn out. There are so many other factors such as school environment, neighborhood environment, friends, genes, outside influences, et. that ultimately affect how we turn out. My crazy sister and my nuts younger brother eventually turned their lives around after years of rebellion and became something.

I don't buy into the idea that our crazy kids are necessarily that way because we were 'bad' parents. Lot's of kids from bad homes get their act together and become something. At 18 years old, we are our own people, or pretty well darned better be.


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## Anonymous07

I'm going to start off by saying that I disagree with the others. Your daughter is not a drug addict and is not dangerous by any means. She is a spoiled little brat who has been given everything without learning that she needs to work for things. You even just wrote this:



DanaS said:


> Two months ago we threw a birthday party for her. I bought her a new iPad and my husband bought her a new Nintendo 3DS with a few games.


Why? Why would you spend that much money on your spoiled adult child with the way she acts? You can't buy her love or respect or anything else. You have to stop treating her like a child if you expect her to grow up and act like an adult. Stop giving her everything! Let her use her own money and help her figure out how to budget and get a job. Your job as a parent is to help your daughter become an independent adult. 

I don't think you are wrong to apologize because I do think you made a mistake, but I think the apology should look different. I saw a blog going around online about the correct way to apologize and think it can come in handy here. 

A Better Way to Say Sorry | cuppacocoa

You can say:

"I’m sorry for tricking you and kicking you out of the house in the way that I did.

This is wrong because I deceived you and should have handled things differently. 

In the future, I will promise to not deceive you again and will parent differently. 

Will you forgive me?"

Then, if she accepts and wants to come back home, set up boundaries for your relationship and stick to them. You are her parent(and are for life) and need to start letting her grow up, but in a loving way(not shoving her off to a homeless shelter). You can offer to help her get a job, but only do so much, as the rest she has to figure out. Don't give her money or expensive things. She has to learn to budget and earn money on her own. If she back talks, ignore her and don't give in to what ever she is whining about. It's going to be a long road to "recovery", so you have to stay firm with your boundaries. It's going to take some time to heal your relationship, so try to be patient.


----------



## DoF

jorgegene said:


> I was raised in a family of four kids. Two brothers and a sister.
> Same parents, still married, pretty much raised the same way.
> Not perfectly by any means, but always love and plenty to eat.
> 
> My older Brother was a model son. Straight 'A's in school, never in any trouble, went on to get his phD from Stanford. My Sister went bonkers in her teenage years, drugs, partying, multiple arrests, got kicked out of school; you get the idea. My younger brother went bonkers too. I was kind of in between. A short 2-3 year rebellion, but nothing too bad. Got my act together and took it on the road.
> 
> My point? We all turn out different. Parents only have so much control over how their kids turn out. There are so many other factors such as school environment, neighborhood environment, friends, genes, outside influences, et. that ultimately affect how we turn out. My crazy sister and my nuts younger brother eventually turned their lives around after years of rebellion and became something.
> 
> I don't buy into the idea that our crazy kids are necessarily that way because we were 'bad' parents. Lot's of kids from bad homes get their act together and become something. At 18 years old, we are our own people, or pretty well darned better be.


Agreed, I've seen this A LOT, heck personally as well.

Came from a good home >turned out bad >turned it around

Wife came from horrible home > turn out great

Many ex friends came from great homes and turned out HORRIBLE

I've also known many kids that grew up in wrong part of town but turned out just fine.

it's a roll of the dice


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## DanaS

Anonymous07 said:


> I'm going to start off by saying that I disagree with the others. Your daughter is not a drug addict and is not dangerous by any means. She is a spoiled little brat who has been given everything without learning that she needs to work for things. You even just wrote this:
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Why would you spend that much money on your spoiled adult child with the way she acts? You can't buy her love or respect or anything else. You have to stop treating her like a child if you expect her to grow up and act like an adult. Stop giving her everything! Let her use her own money and help her figure out how to budget and get a job. Your job as a parent is to help your daughter become an independent adult.
> 
> I don't think you are wrong to apologize because I do think you made a mistake, but I think the apology should look different. I saw a blog going around online about the correct way to apologize and think it can come in handy here.
> 
> A Better Way to Say Sorry | cuppacocoa
> 
> You can say:
> 
> "I’m sorry for tricking you and kicking you out of the house in the way that I did.
> 
> This is wrong because I deceived you and should have handled things differently.
> 
> In the future, I will promise to not deceive you again and will parent differently.
> 
> Will you forgive me?"
> 
> Then, if she accepts and wants to come back home, set up boundaries for your relationship and stick to them. You are her parent(and are for life) and need to start letting her grow up, but in a loving way(not shoving her off to a homeless shelter). You can offer to help her get a job, but only do so much, as the rest she has to figure out. Don't give her money or expensive things. She has to learn to budget and earn money on her own. If she back talks, ignore her and don't give in to what ever she is whining about. It's going to be a long road to "recovery", so you have to stay firm with your boundaries. It's going to take some time to heal your relationship, so try to be patient.


I understand what you are saying, I really do, and if it were just me I would be inclined to agree. But I also have my husband and soon to be new baby to think about. Daughter or not, it's not fair to them to deal with the abuse. I know it's of course awkward for my husband as well when she is here; not that he has complained but still he is my husband and I am not going to let her speak to him that way regardless of how she feels. 

Maybe buying her those things was a mistake, but it was my daughter's birthday so I figured I should get her something, and my husband certainly didn't have to. I'm not trying to "buy" her good behavior, I just thought it was the right thing to do. 

Another thing that she has done that I probably should have mentioned earlier is that before right after she moved in she said to me "Since I am staying here I don't want to see you and [husband's name] getting all cuddly and PDA". I told her she has no right to dictate that and this is my house and he is my husband and I'll do what I want. It still didn't stop her from complaining though. A few incidences of note:

It was late at night and my husband and I were snuggled up on the couch watching a movie, she walks into the living room and says "MOM, DO YOU REALLY HAVE TO DO THAT??" in a condescending tone. I just said to her if you don't like it go back to your room. 

Another time I was doing dishes in the kitchen, my hubby came up behind me and we started kissing (not all out, it wasn't as if we were on the counter top doing it) and my daughter walks in and goes "Oh god! You two should get a room! Ick!".

One other is we have two computers in the game room, one for me and one for hubby. She got on my husband's computer without asking and when he told her to get off she argued with him saying she'll be done in a minute, well my husband told her to get off right then and again she refused saying "You're not my dad, I don't have to do what you say", so he turned off the computer and she cussed at him and stormed off. For those wondering my PC is password protected to log in so she couldn't get on it, but according to my husband she was just browsing facebook and other social media sites so she wasn't doing anything important. And, of course it IS his computer so you bet he has the right to kick her butt off of it. 

If my daughter does come back would it be wrong of me to make one of the stipulations that along with me of course, awkward or not, my husband reserves the right to tell her to help around the house and clean up etc.? When she was living here many days he'd get home from work before me for a few hours so it would just be her and him and I actually felt bad for him having to deal with her and her crap. 

Sorry, I know I'm venting a little, but I just need to share my thoughts/feelings.


----------



## EleGirl

DanaS said:


> I understand what you are saying, I really do, and if it were just me I would be inclined to agree. But I also have my husband and soon to be new baby to think about. Daughter or not, it's not fair to them to deal with the abuse. I know it's of course awkward for my husband as well when she is here; not that he has complained but still he is my husband and I am not going to let her speak to him that way regardless of how she feels.
> 
> Maybe buying her those things was a mistake, but it was my daughter's birthday so I figured I should get her something, and my husband certainly didn't have to. I'm not trying to "buy" her good behavior, I just thought it was the right thing to do.
> 
> Another thing that she has done that I probably should have mentioned earlier is that before right after she moved in she said to me "Since I am staying here I don't want to see you and [husband's name] getting all cuddly and PDA". I told her she has no right to dictate that and this is my house and he is my husband and I'll do what I want. It still didn't stop her from complaining though. A few incidences of note:
> 
> It was late at night and my husband and I were snuggled up on the couch watching a movie, she walks into the living room and says "MOM, DO YOU REALLY HAVE TO DO THAT??" in a condescending tone. I just said to her if you don't like it go back to your room.
> 
> Another time I was doing dishes in the kitchen, my hubby came up behind me and we started kissing (not all out, it wasn't as if we were on the counter top doing it) and my daughter walks in and goes "Oh god! You two should get a room! Ick!".
> 
> One other is we have two computers in the game room, one for me and one for hubby. She got on my husband's computer without asking and when he told her to get off she argued with him saying she'll be done in a minute, well my husband told her to get off right then and again she refused saying "You're not my dad, I don't have to do what you say", so he turned off the computer and she cussed at him and stormed off. For those wondering my PC is password protected to log in so she couldn't get on it, but according to my husband she was just browsing facebook and other social media sites so she wasn't doing anything important. And, of course it IS his computer so you bet he has the right to kick her butt off of it.
> 
> If my daughter does come back would it be wrong of me to make one of the stipulations that along with me of course, awkward or not, my husband reserves the right to tell her to help around the house and clean up etc.? When she was living here many days he'd get home from work before me for a few hours so it would just be her and him and I actually felt bad for him having to deal with her and her crap.
> 
> Sorry, I know I'm venting a little, but I just need to share my thoughts/feelings.


You daughter seems immature for 23. All that you described that she has done is very typical for a step child in reacting to a step parent. 

This is why second marriages fail about 70% of the time.. the step children.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Consequences for being so rude. Your house. Your rules.

If she returns, lay the law.

She doesn't like it, she can build her own life. She is 23.

I have a feeling she isn't coming back. So this may all be moot, but you do not have to tolerate disrespect. If she chooses to be rude she loses something important to her until she learns to stop doing that.


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## Anonymous07

Of course she feels it's gross, as she watches her mom kiss a man very close in age to herself. You have romantic feelings for a man who is about the same age as your own child, which can be viewed as weird be many(myself included). That is to be expected and it's not that big of a deal. Many children(adult children too) don't want to watch their parents kiss/make out or think about them having sex. As you said yourself, if she doesn't like it, she can leave the room. You handled that fine. 

Why are you afraid of telling her she has to listen to her step-dad? 

That, to me, seems as if you see him as someone younger/inferior who isn't at the same level as yourself to be the parent. If age isn't an issue, then you should not be worried about telling her to listen to your new husband if she wants to live under your roof. 

Your daughter is your first family and you can't just throw her away to start over again. As I mentioned before, she is not a drug addict and not dangerous in any way. She is just spoiled and has been treated like a child, so she acts like one. Now is the time to hopefully fix your relationship with her and help her grow up with new boundaries. Be very open and clear with her about expectations and consequences.


----------



## Healer

She's a 23 year old WOMAN, not a child. She disrespected the household she was so kindly allowed to stay in, and now she's dealing with the consequences of that. If she had a job and treated her boss or customers that way, they'd fire her ass. She's well past old enough to know that you can't behave that way without consequences, and now she's dealing with them, as an ADULT has to.

You should not feel bad for 1 second. If she were a kid that'd be different. She's old enough to be a mom herself, ffs.


----------



## DanaS

Lila said:


> Dana,
> 
> Your daughters animosity towards your husband is not unheard for teenagers but it's odd for someone who's in her early 20's. Could you share how you met your husband? Did you daughter know him prior to you meeting him? When you two were dating, how did she behave towards him?


I met him through an online video game. I think a big part of the reason I get along with him so well is I've always been real young at heart and kind of a nerd/geek. In high school in the 80's I'd play D&D, I got into card games such as Magic (even bought one of the first decks that came out in '93...I'm old lol.). As well as I'd play video games like the NES, and I kept up when I could. 

She didn't know him before she met him. When we were dating she only met him a few times but when dating I figure she didn't think it was serious and she didn't say much them. It's only once we got married she flipped out.


----------



## DanaS

EleGirl said:


> You daughter seems immature for 23. All that you described that she has done is very typical for a step child in reacting to a step parent.
> 
> This is why second marriages fail about 70% of the time.. the step children.


Is it really right to call him a step-parent though? It's not as if he has to "parent" her.


----------



## DanaS

Anonymous07 said:


> Of course she feels it's gross, as she watches her mom kiss a man very close in age to herself. You have romantic feelings for a man who is about the same age as your own child, which can be viewed as weird be many(myself included). That is to be expected and it's not that big of a deal. Many children(adult children too) don't want to watch their parents kiss/make out or think about them having sex. As you said yourself, if she doesn't like it, she can leave the room. You handled that fine.
> 
> Why are you afraid of telling her she has to listen to her step-dad?
> 
> That, to me, seems as if you see him as someone younger/inferior who isn't at the same level as yourself to be the parent. If age isn't an issue, then you should not be worried about telling her to listen to your new husband if she wants to live under your roof.
> 
> Your daughter is your first family and you can't just throw her away to start over again. As I mentioned before, she is not a drug addict and not dangerous in any way. She is just spoiled and has been treated like a child, so she acts like one. Now is the time to hopefully fix your relationship with her and help her grow up with new boundaries. Be very open and clear with her about expectations and consequences.


Question: Would you find the age difference just as weird if it were a 28 year old woman married to a 44 year old man? 

I actually made a topic on this very subject but why is it okay for older men to have all the young hot babes they want but suddenly if an older woman meets a hot young guy it's suddenly "gross" and "nasty"? Not to mention it's nice knowing unlike so many men in my age group he isn't some deadbeat dad with multiple kids he has to pay child support for, has ex wives and all bitter and jaded. After divorcing my ex I went on plenty of dates with same-age men (heck my husband is the first younger man I've ever been with) and so many were so seriously damaged it was unreal. No offense to the men here, just my experience. 


As for telling her to listen to him I believed she should if she lives here but I thought some here may disagree.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DanaS said:


> Is it really right to call him a step-parent though? It's not as if he has to "parent" her.


I would consider him a step-parent. There's lot of parenting to do even after they are 18. I don't think it ever ends. Even if he's not directly parenting, he is still a huge part of her life now.

IMO if you choose to marry someone with kids you accept the responsibilities and baggage that comes along with that.


----------



## Anonymous07

DanaS said:


> Question: Would you find the age difference just as weird if it were a 28 year old woman married to a 44 year old man?
> 
> I actually made a topic on this very subject but why is it okay for older men to have all the young hot babes they want but suddenly if an older woman meets a hot young guy it's suddenly "gross" and "nasty"? Not to mention it's nice knowing unlike so many men in my age group he isn't some deadbeat dad with multiple kids he has to pay child support for, has ex wives and all bitter and jaded. After divorcing my ex I went on plenty of dates with same-age men (heck my husband is the first younger man I've ever been with) and so many were so seriously damaged it was unreal. No offense to the men here, just my experience.
> 
> 
> As for telling her to listen to him I believed she should if she lives here but I thought some here may disagree.


I don't have an issue with age-gap relationships per say, as I am in one myself(husband is 10 years older), and honestly don't care who is older(man or woman - doesn't matter), but my issue is that you have romantic feelings for someone the same/similar age as your child. I can't imagine falling for someone who would be similar in age to my son without viewing him as a child, too. 

You said that the men had too much baggage, but you seem to have quite the amount of baggage yourself with your daughter's situation. 

You are forever a parent once you give birth to a child and that never ends even when they are adults. When you remarry, that new partner then becomes the step-parent and takes on that new role. It's your house and your rules. Your new husband is your partner in parenting and if she wants to live at home, then she would have to listen to both of you. If she didn't like it, she is free to move out. Boundaries are set and you stick to them.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

My perspective is you would be making a mistake by backing down now. If you take her back in before she truly commits to improving her behaviour she'll learn only that to get back in the house all she needs to do is be obstinate and hurtful. 

You have every right to live the way you want. You have no obligation to support a 23 year old child. If you choose to do so you have every right to dictate the terms. 

I don't know where kids get off these days thinking they are somehow owed something from their parents. They should be grateful for every single thing they get...no matter what age. It's called respect.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Don't over complicate this issue... he helps pay the bills... he gets her respect.. period.


----------



## Anonymous07

MaritimeGuy said:


> My perspective is you would be making a mistake by backing down now. If you take her back in before she truly commits to improving her behaviour she'll learn only that to get back in the house all she needs to do is be obstinate and hurtful.
> 
> You have every right to live the way you want. You have no obligation to support a 23 year old child. If you choose to do so you have every right to dictate the terms.
> 
> I don't know where kids get off these days thinking they are somehow owed something from their parents. They should be grateful for every single thing they get...no matter what age. It's called respect.


You are correct that she does not necessarily "owe" her daughter anything, but as a parent you don't trick your child into getting into a car and drop them off at an unsafe place (homeless shelter). Her daughter acts like a child because that is how she is treated. Why would she grow up if mom just gives her everything? She doesn't need to work when her mom will give her money, presents, etc. Part of the reason many kids/young adults feel so entitled is because of how their parents treat them. If she had set up strict boundaries, I doubt they would be in this situation. I don't think it's right to "punish" her daughter in this way for something that she had fault in too.


----------



## EleGirl

DanaS said:


> Is it really right to call him a step-parent though? It's not as if he has to "parent" her.


If he is not a step-parent, then what is he? One of her roommates?


----------



## Deep Down

DanaS said:


> If my daughter does come back would it be wrong of me to make one of the stipulations that along with me of course, awkward or not, my husband reserves the right to tell her to help around the house and clean up etc.? When she was living here many days he'd get home from work before me for a few hours so it would just be her and him and I actually felt bad for him having to deal with her and her crap.
> 
> Sorry, I know I'm venting a little, but I just need to share my thoughts/feelings.


It's not wrong of you at all, its your H and your house, not her's, you can lay down whatever rules you like. What I've learned from the stepfamily course we did, is that kids (we weren't talking 23yo's but hey..) respond better to their biological parent giving them tasks and discipline, so you need to be the main "parent". What you can do though, is to say that if you are not there and your H is, she needs is do as he asks. It's his house after all, not hers. 

Also it's probably good to set the boundary that if she makes a mess, she must clean it up. Regardless of who's home. That's the rule. If she wants to invite people over, she must ask your permission. It's not her house, she shares it with your and your H. 

My second marriage is now 7.5 years and my D22 has settled in pretty well with H, (she was 14 when we married) but it took a good 5 years for them to develop enough of a relationship to manage without me in the middle.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Part of the reason many kids/young adults feel so entitled is because of how their parents treat them.


And apparently a growing portion of society rationalizing that 23 year old people aren't adults, shouldn't be expected to act like adults, and can't handle themselves.


----------



## Iver

Your daughter is 23, not 13. She, as an adult, needs to act like an adult and not a child.

If she ends up living back at your house she needs to be working full time - fast food, janitorial, home aide, whatever as a base condition. Not 15 hours a week and partying every day which is what she will try to do.

Is there any hope she would go back to school and get some usefull skills?


----------



## EleGirl

Deep Down said:


> It's not wrong of you at all, its your H and your house, not her's, you can lay down whatever rules you like. What I've learned from the stepfamily course we did, is that kids (we weren't talking 23yo's but hey..) respond better to their biological parent giving them tasks and discipline, so you need to be the main "parent". What you can do though, is to say that if you are not there and your H is, she needs is do as he asks. It's his house after all, not hers.
> 
> Also it's probably good to set the boundary that if she makes a mess, she must clean it up. Regardless of who's home. That's the rule. If she wants to invite people over, she must ask your permission. It's not her house, she shares it with your and your H.
> 
> My second marriage is now 7.5 years and my D22 has settled in pretty well with H, (she was 14 when we married) but it took a good 5 years for them to develop enough of a relationship to manage without me in the middle.


I was told that it takes about 5 years for a blended family to become an family and start working right.


----------



## EleGirl

Starstarfish said:


> And apparently a growing portion of society rationalizing that 23 year old people aren't adults, shouldn't be expected to act like adults, and can't handle themselves.


Not one person on this thread has even suggested that. 

What some have said is that tricking and lying to her daughter to get her out of the house was not cool. And that dropping her off at a homeless shelter is putting her daughter in danger.. she is not likely to have gotten a bed that night or any night, it's freezing outside so she's at risk of freezing to death since she had no street experience. And it's dangerous for a woman of any age who has no experience with the street to be out alone on the street. She's an easy target.


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## TiggyBlue

EleGirl said:


> Not one person on this thread has even suggested that.
> 
> What some have said is that tricking and lying to her daughter to get her out of the house was not cool. And that dropping her off at a homeless shelter is putting her daughter in danger.. she is not likely to have gotten a bed that night or any night, it's freezing outside so she's at risk of freezing to death since she had no street experience. And it's dangerous for a woman of any age who has no experience with the street to be out alone on the street. She's an easy target.


Unfortunately I doubt she is going to reflect on why she was kicked out and focus on was on how it was done.


----------



## Anonymous07

TiggyBlue said:


> Unfortunately I doubt she is going to reflect on why she was kicked out and focus on how it was on how it was done.


I wouldn't blame her for that because I would be pretty pissed myself if I was tricked and dropped off at such a location. It's going to take time for her to get passed that and really look at/understand why it was done, although in poor taste. 

Most people teach their kids how to swim by preparing them. They get them used to the water, teach them to be comfortable with their face under water and blow bubbles, use a kick board, and then finally help teach them to swim. They normally don't just shove them into the deep end and expect them to survive/do well. You can't just throw a girl on the street with no life tools for being an adult. She has been babied all of her life and now suddenly expected to act like an adult. That doesn't work so well. She needs to be taught the tools of how to be an adult. Sure some people can be shoved into the deep end and do okay, but most won't.


----------



## Anonymous07

Starstarfish said:


> And apparently a growing portion of society rationalizing that 23 year old people aren't adults, shouldn't be expected to act like adults, and can't handle themselves.


No one was making excuses for her daughter's behavior. All that was said was the way this was handled was done very poorly. Yes, her daughter needs to grow up, as she is an adult, but she doesn't deserve to be tricked and dropped off in a dangerous place. She put her daughter in a very bad spot. It should have been handled differently. 

I have a cousin who was just like her daughter. She partied a lot, was mouthy, drank excessively, couldn't hold a job, slept around, etc. My aunt had a tough time with her, but she handled things much differently. She was very clear about expectations and what she found offensive. She was also clear about the consequences of those actions. When my cousin went too far, my aunt told her to leave. She couch surfed for a while, still doing what she always did until she was broke and no longer had a place to stay. She then came back to my aunt and promised to behave better. She hit 'rock bottom' and then changed her life around. This went on from around age 21 to 24. She is now 27 and a responsible, respectful adult who is also recently married. She is very different from the girl she was before. She had tough love from my aunt. She wasn't tricked or dropped off somewhere.


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## RoseAglow

The OP didn't title her thread: "Kicked my daughter out of my house, feel terrible."

I can't see any poster who disagrees that Dana has every right to have peace and respect in her house. That is not the issue that she presented.

She specifically asked about taking her daughter to a homeless shelter. 

Dana is pregnant; she has been stressed out about her daughter anyway. She was furious at her daughter. Angry and stressed are bad; pregnant, angry, and stressed...that is prime "Whoops" territory.

Kicking her out not a "Whoops". Tough love is necessary. But tough love has a plan, a set of rules, a set of consequences, and some love to it.
.
It looks something like: "I love you; however your behavior is not acceptable. We've tried X and Y, however, you continue your disrespectful/dangerous/non-contributing/etc. behavior. As a result, you can no longer stay here. 

Until you are able to be respectful/safe/contributing/etc, I cannot help you. I will be able to discuss this again when and if you are willing to make some changes."

Dana, if your daughter ever asks to come back, please make sure you have a full plan. You had the first part when you let her stay (must be respectful, clean, have a job), not the second part- what will happen if she doesn't follow through

Since you didn't have a plan, you didn't have a clear set of actions. You got overwhelmed and lost you temper. In order to get your daughter out, you manipulated you daughter into getting into a car, then ditched her in a homeless shelter.

[And again- maybe you live in Australia or Florida, or some other place where it's warm right now. Maybe you also live in a small town where homeless shelters are not over-crowded will mentally ill, physically ill, addicted people. Maybe where you live they are safe. In most places, though, homeless shelters are less dangerous than being out in the street in the freezing cold, but more dangerous than just about any other environment.]

IMO, the "Whoops" was in letting your emotions take over, and putting her in a dangerous place. 

Dana, if you want your daughter to stop being manipulative, you can model how to face an issue head-on, how to draw and maintain boundaries. In this case, your emotions got the best of you and you demonstrated/modeled for her that is OK to manipulate someone to get what you want. You modeled that if you're angry, it is ok to just ditch someone without regard for their well-being (unless you consider caring about someone's well-being is dropping them off with sick people, people in drug withdrawal, people who have nothing and won't think twice about taking what they need from an easy mark.)

If you want your daughter to know that you love her and care about her well-being, you and your husband can come up with a plan. A crucial part of Tough Love is making sure to communicate that the person is loved and is welcome back, once they have safe/tolerable/respectful behavior. That crucial part is missing from what you've done, unless you said something at the time and didn't post it.

I agree with Blossom and others that an apology on your end is fine. If I were in your shoes right now, I would want to send a text along the lines of: 

"[Daughter], I hope you are doing OK. I know we are having difficulties right now, but I want you to know that I love you. It is frustrating and heartbreaking to me. I love you and want to help you, but I can't help you if you are going to be disrespectful to me and [husband]. I didn't handle it well and I am sorry I dropped you off at the shelter. I think we can do better than this. I am here if you want to talk. I'd love to talk with you. I love you."

In other words- let her know that she has to ship up, but if she does, you are there. This also says that you could have handled it better, without saying that her behavior was OK. It's walking that fine line of owning your stuff, while also letting her know that you won't tolerate her bad behavior.

Hang in there!


----------



## the guy

Anonymous07 said:


> I wouldn't blame her for that because I would be pretty pissed myself if I was tricked and dropped off at such a location..


Ya being remorseful at trashing my moms house a disrespecting moms boytoy is way better then being a little sh1t and being pissed that you got tricked....

Phucking kid plays the silent treatment crap instead of facing her mom and hashing this out.

OP your kids has a lot of growing to do...maybe when she hit 25 she will *start* getting it!

But then again look at her dad.....she might have that gene...you know.. the "being a phuck up" gene.


----------



## DanaS

So I did send her a text spelling out the rules she'd have to abide by by moving back such as being respectful to me and my husband, cleaning up after herself, showing that she has put in job applications, INCLUDING fast food. It was sent 2 hours ago but still no reply. 

My husband did say something that I find troubling. He said considering the man she is with now is an ex and they didn't break up on good terms it's possible he only agreed to let her stay with him in exchange for sex, do you think this is a possibility?


----------



## EleGirl

DanaS said:


> So I did send her a text spelling out the rules she'd have to abide by by moving back such as being respectful to me and my husband, cleaning up after herself, showing that she has put in job applications, INCLUDING fast food. It was sent 2 hours ago but still no reply.
> 
> My husband did say something that I find troubling. He said considering the man she is with now is an ex and they didn't break up on good terms it's possible he only agreed to let her stay with him in exchange for sex, do you think this is a possibility?


How badly did he treat her when they were together?


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## DanaS

EleGirl said:


> How badly did he treat her when they were together?


Nothing physically or really emotionally abusive AFAIK. He did seem like a jerk but no doubt my daughter had a lot to do with it. He broke up with her after dating 5 months in. My daughter came home crying saying he was mean and treated her badly and wouldn't listen but knowing her I am sure she exaggerated quite a bit.


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## ConanHub

She very likely is having sex while staying with her ex. It would actually be an anomaly if they were not engaging physically.

I am not trying to make you feel bad about your decision. Your daughter is an adult who is engaging in very destructive behavior. You cannot allow her to destroy your home or family.

There are, however, harsh realities that your daughter is going to be facing because of her decisions. Sex is the currency for women on the street.

She is at least with an ex instead of strangers but given your daughter's attitude, the likely hood of her engaging in prostitution is high.

If your daughter is not willing to do some very hard work on herself, I don't think she is ready, then there is little you can do about it.

Just reinforce that you love her and keep iron hard boundaries in place. She will probably keep trying to have the world her way for some time. She will more than likely blame you and anyone else for her bad behavior and bad results.

She always needs to have her reality shoved in her face, to always put her stupidity directly in her lap for her to own alone. Do this while loving her.

I have a 26 year old son who is still working his way out of the hole he dug. Your daughter sounds a lot like my son.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starstarfish

> Not one person on this thread has even suggested that.


Actually, SlowingGoingGrazy suggested it earlier. 



> Some 23 year olds aren't mature enough yet.


But, that's besides the point. In the end, if the daughter wasn't indeed willing to ship out and tough love had to be enforced what was going to be the ultimate consequence?

Couch surfing and possibly the shelter.



> It looks something like: "I love you; however your behavior is not acceptable. We've tried X and Y, however, you continue your disrespectful/dangerous/non-contributing/etc. behavior. As a result, you can no longer stay here.


Even with a plan, what was her next alternative? The OP's ex-husband, the father seems to have no part here. The daughter has burned bridges with a lot of friends (or so I got the feeling of from the OP's posts.)

So even if there had been a solid plan in place, what was going to be the next step after "You can no longer stay here." And if she had refused to leave, would the authorities getting involved really have helped matters?

It seems like there's this focus on this not being a stated thing, rather than how it should be a logical conclusion to a 23 year old - *who has already been asked to leave somewhere due to her behavior * (IE - her roommates) that if she did the same thing again, there would be consequences she wouldn't like.

Was the lying right? Possibly not. But should it have been neccessary? No. The daughter already had this experience, and learned exactly zero from it. She likes to treat people how she pleases. 

And honestly, I feel all the begging and pleading texts and all the I love you is just going to reinforce that.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

FTR- When I say that some 23 year olds are not mature enough yet, I mean that they'll mess up, they'll make bad choices, do stupid things. But they'll learn from their mistakes and they'll grow. You still treat them as adults who have consequences or they _won't_ learn from it but it's fairly typical to still be a little lost in life and learning and growing at that age so some understanding, guidance and a little help though it all goes a long way.
You don't just write off someone as a failure because they are immature at 23. That doesn't mean you treat them like a child. 


IMO I think it would be helpful to acknowledge her feelings but still enforcing the rules 
"I understand this situation is hard and awkward for you but while you are in this home you must respect both me and H"
Then you'd add the consequences... 
"if you do not, this and this will happen"
then follow through.


----------



## Jasel

Personally I think you did the right thing. Although I also think you need to stop with all the texting/calling and give her some space. You can't trick your kid by asking them to ride with you, dump them off at a homeless shelter, constantly try to contact them and then get upset when they don't want to talk to you. Your daughter needs to grow up, not hand holding. If she wants to talk, she knows how to reach you. You also might be jumping the gun offering her to come back if she follows certain rules. From what you've posted it's quite obvious she's going to do whatever she wants, regardless of the rules or who it effects until she gets kicked out. It sounds like this has happened multiple times with multiple people. I also don't think letting her back would be fair to your husband and your child once he/she is born.


----------



## DTO

TheFlood117 said:


> Point of no return. A Rubicon of sorts.
> 
> I hope you understand that.
> 
> Cause I can, without a doubt, guarantee your daughter knows this.
> 
> I've said on another board of this forum before, when I was going through major life changing issues-
> 
> You are a husband/wife for a limited time in your life. Things happen... Infidelity, lying, abuse... Divorce. You are a husband or wife for whatever 2nd or even 3rd party allows you to be.
> 
> 
> YOU ARE A PARENT.
> 
> 
> *FOREVER. *
> 
> Good luck.


So, the usual advice about the husband and wife being the foundation of the family and needing to put themselves first to make the family thrive... All those people are wrong and you are right?

This guy is really patient, but put up with the 23 y/o crap for long enough and he will bail. No one would put up with that for too long. Should she just forgo being married again?


----------



## warlock07

> One other is we have two computers in the game room, one for me and one for hubby. She got on my husband's computer without asking and when he told her to get off she argued with him saying she'll be done in a minute, well my husband told her to get off right then and again she refused saying "You're not my dad, I don't have to do what you say", so he turned off the computer and she cussed at him and stormed off. For those wondering my PC is password protected to log in so she couldn't get on it, but according to my husband she was just browsing facebook and other social media sites so she wasn't doing anything important. And, of course it IS his computer so you bet he has the right to kick her butt off of it.


ummm............


----------



## bravenewworld

DanaS said:


> So I did send her a text spelling out the rules she'd have to abide by by moving back such as being respectful to me and my husband, cleaning up after herself, showing that she has put in job applications, INCLUDING fast food. It was sent 2 hours ago but still no reply.
> 
> My husband did say something that I find troubling. He said considering the man she is with now is an ex and they didn't break up on good terms it's possible he only agreed to let her stay with him in exchange for sex, do you think this is a possibility?


Possibility? More like a guarantee. 

You dropped her off with absolutely no notice at a homeless shelter. She's a young girl with no income or access to safe housing.......what did you think was going to be the result? :scratchhead:

Not trying to berate you OP, but surely you understand there's a reason pimps hang out around homeless shelters, large bus terminals, etc. Young/desperate/transient people are easy targets for people involved in crime/sex trade.

There's really nothing you can do at this point, I'd advise you to focus on your upcoming pregnancy and seeking IC to deal with the stress of this situation. Really believe some guided introspection could help in future dealings with your daughter and the child you will be raising.


----------



## DanaS

warlock07 said:


> ummm............


Umm what?


----------



## DanaS

bravenewworld said:


> Possibility? More like a guarantee.
> 
> You dropped her off with absolutely no notice at a homeless shelter. She's a young girl with no income or access to safe housing.......what did you think was going to be the result? :scratchhead:
> 
> Not trying to berate you OP, but surely you understand there's a reason pimps hang out around homeless shelters, large bus terminals, etc. Young/desperate/transient people are easy targets for people involved in crime/sex trade.
> 
> There's really nothing you can do at this point, I'd advise you to focus on your upcoming pregnancy and seeking IC to deal with the stress of this situation. Really believe some guided introspection could help in future dealings with your daughter and the child you will be raising.


I feel horrible about it. I would hope my daughter would be willing to contact me before turning to prostitution or the like. I have reached out to her several times. You are right in that there probably is little I can do right now, I am just so stressed with work, this pregnancy, etc. My husband has been a big help working around the house, cooking, talking with me, etc. I just don't know where to go from here. 

I don't want to lose my daughter, but I don't want to deal with her attitude either.


----------



## DTO

intheory said:


> You have a home and a baby on the way.
> 
> She's got squat, from the sounds of it. I'm not getting into "why" that is; no-one here knows that.


This is it exactly. She has not built any life for herself and depends on her mom. Now mom has added to her family and will be a senior citizen by the time the new baby is grown and self-sufficient.

Translation? D23 is 1 of 4 instead of 1 of 2. She won't get nearly the resources (time, money) she may have gotten otherwise. Mom has to:

* Raise a child starting in her mid-40s.
* Prepare for retirement without those prime earning years where you can focus on your career. 
* Find a way for her new H to retire early. Consider that at his full retirement age she will be in her mid-80s. She likely does not want to either work that long or retire on her own while he's still working.

I know it sounds cold, but inevitably D23 has to step it up big and she is pissed.


----------



## the guy

Your kid made a choice...she could have called you and told you her additude has changed, apoligized to you and you old man and promised to put in the effort.

But nooooo.....she has to much "pride".....it's going to take some time for her to see she is just a phuck up and needs your support.


When the hell is she going to figure out life is a two way street?

My guess is another couple of years...maybe when she hits 25 she'll get it.


----------



## jld

DanaS said:


> I feel horrible about it. I would hope my daughter would be willing to contact me before turning to prostitution or the like. I have reached out to her several times. You are right in that there probably is little I can do right now, I am just so stressed with work, this pregnancy, etc. My husband has been a big help working around the house, cooking, talking with me, etc. I just don't know where to go from here.
> 
> I don't want to lose my daughter, but I don't want to deal with her attitude either.


If it were me, I would apologize. Maybe your husband would be willing to go and try to listen to her if she does not want to see you?

I just could not give up on any of my children. I would have to reach out and try to rectify things. But that is just me.


----------



## warlock07

DanaS said:


> Umm what?


Your husband does not seem to know how to not escalate the situation..

And she was using his computer because you kept yours locked?


----------



## warlock07

DanaS said:


> I feel horrible about it. I would hope my daughter would be willing to contact me before turning to prostitution or the like. I have reached out to her several times. You are right in that there probably is little I can do right now, I am just so stressed with work, this pregnancy, etc. My husband has been a big help working around the house, cooking, talking with me, etc. I just don't know where to go from here.
> 
> I don't want to lose my daughter, but I don't want to deal with her attitude either.


Don't give her confusing messages. Be consistent. Don't live on the extremes.

Now she might have lost any new found respect for your boundaries...Throwing her into a homeless shelter might be extreme but you had a message to send..You shouldn't have did that but once you did that, the worst thing to do would be to apologize and beg her to back into the house.

Be stable. Be someone consistent and predictable.


----------



## bravenewworld

warlock07 said:


> Your husband does not seem to know how to not escalate the situation..
> 
> And she was using his computer because you kept yours locked?


I found this a little confusing too. Generally when I'm staying (granted, not living) with family or friends they don't seem to have a problem with me using their desktop/printer/etc. as long as they are not using it. 

Sounds like you had two computers in the home, both free. If your husband needed to use his computer, was there a way for him to unlock yours for her use? Power struggles over abundant resources always confuse me. 

You might try reading "Co-Dependent No More" as it really sounds like the entire situation was trigged by a lack of boundaries. I use to have that same issue, but I've improved A LOT and am still getting better with it, even when I backslide. 

It's so freeing when I make conscientious choices in my own best interest, rather than feeling like I'm out of control and merely reacting to the chaos swirling around me.


----------



## Mike6211

bravenewworld said:


> ... Power struggles over abundant resources always confuse me.


That's because you are thinking about it rationally. Abundant resources = no need for power struggles. So far, so good. Except that....

... the whole situation is actually one of deep-seated psychological enmeshment (aka co-dependency??). In such a situation, there is a 'game' to play [Transactional Analysis viewpoint] or an Identified Patient* to be kept dysfunctional [Family Dynamics viewpoint].

It is then 'necessary' (at a deep subconscious level of all parties) for the aggro to continue. For the aggro to continue, there have to be flashpoints and irritants created in order to keep the dysfunctional 'game' going. The computers (one locked, the other 'his' and get your butt off it the second I say so) are just such a 'created' flashpoint. So is dumping the daughter at a homeless shelter instead of paying for a motel room for the night.

* Wikipedia, "Identified Patient" : The identified patient - also called the "symptom-bearer" or "presenting problem" - may display unexplainable emotional or physical symptoms ... While family members will typically express concern over the IP's problems, they may instinctively react to any improvement on the identified patient's part by attempting to reinstate the status quo ... the identified patient [is] a way of both concealing and revealing a family's secret agendas ... [important to] bring not only the identified patient but the extended family in which their problems arose into the therapy with the ultimate goal of relieving the IP of the broader family feelings they have been carrying.


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## DoF

OP, you did the right thing. I would take some time and not contact her. She needs to figure out what she is doing wrong, what she has done wrong etc.

You already told her prior to her moving out.

Reach out to her during holiday time.....or birthday. Say him every few weeks or something but the episode is now over. 

I know this would hurt ANY parent but you need to just let her go and learn the hard way. 

MOST PEOPLE ONLY LEARN THE HARD WAY!!!


----------



## DoF

DanaS said:


> I feel horrible about it. I would hope my daughter would be willing to contact me before turning to prostitution or the like. I have reached out to her several times. You are right in that there probably is little I can do right now, I am just so stressed with work, this pregnancy, etc. My husband has been a big help working around the house, cooking, talking with me, etc. I just don't know where to go from here.
> 
> I don't want to lose my daughter, but I don't want to deal with her attitude either.


You shouldn't feel horrible about ANYTHING. Your brain is tricking you....don't let it.

She is out of control and the entire situation is out of your control.

Rule of thumb: Don't worry about ANYTHING that's out of your control.

You said "I don't want to lose my daughter".....but the truth is, she was already lost even when she was living with you.....

Since you are pregnant, you need to recognize that your feelings and emotions will be ALL OVER THE PLACE. So make sure you deal with these feelings/emotions properly. Stay cool/calm and just relax. Stress is not only bad for your health but also your child's now as well.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Mike6211 said:


> That's because you are thinking about it rationally. Abundant resources = no need for power struggles. So far, so good. Except that....
> 
> ... the whole situation is actually one of deep-seated psychological enmeshment (aka co-dependency??). In such a situation, there is a 'game' to play [Transactional Analysis viewpoint] or an Identified Patient* to be kept dysfunctional [Family Dynamics viewpoint].
> 
> It is then 'necessary' (at a deep subconscious level of all parties) for the aggro to continue. For the aggro to continue, there have to be flashpoints and irritants created in order to keep the dysfunctional 'game' going. The computers (one locked, the other 'his' and get your butt off it the second I say so) are just such a 'created' flashpoint. So is dumping the daughter at a homeless shelter instead of paying for a motel room for the night.
> 
> ** Wikipedia, "Identified Patient" : The identified patient - also called the "symptom-bearer" or "presenting problem"* - may display unexplainable emotional or physical symptoms ... While family members will typically express concern over the IP's problems, they may instinctively react to any improvement on the identified patient's part by attempting to reinstate the status quo ... the identified patient [is] a way of both concealing and revealing a family's secret agendas ... [important to] bring not only the identified patient but the extended family in which their problems arose into the therapy with the ultimate goal of relieving the IP of the broader family feelings they have been carrying.


I do think it's possible for parents to hate / be jealous of / and so of their children. The worst cases get expressed as physical or sexual abuse. But there is emotional abuse

Someone can hate their child because he/ she looks so much like the other parent. Can be "too beautiful (read about the Magdalene Laundries in Ireland, parents would get rid of their daughters that way); more intelligent than the parent (so the parent is always trying to find ways to cut the child down to size).... and so on.

DanaS has not told us anything about her daughter's childhood nor about the relationships that her father has with the daughter and her. 

Why don't you share this with us?


----------



## MaritimeGuy

Let me start by saying kudos to all of you out there that handle every situation perfectly. As far as how the OP evicted her daughter it's water under the bridge now. It can not be undone.

Dire warnings about how this 23 year old woman will have to resort to prostitution serve no purpose other to stress out Dana and make her feel more guilty. If the girl was going to become a prostitute she would be one by now. I don't believe there is any risk of this whatsoever. 

At this point the girl has to go through a process. Undoubtedly she's scared, hurt and angry. Initially she's going to blame mom and try to hurt mom in return but given enough time she will realize mom is not responsible for her plight...she is. If mom were some kind of devil the girl would get along wonderfully with everyone but her mother. It appears in fact she burns bridges everywhere so eventually it will dawn on her what the common denominator is.

Dana may wish to apologize for how she evicted the girl. Something honest along the lines, "I'm sorry how I did that...I was stressed and at my wit's end and at the time could not think of a better way. I am worried and concerned for your safety however I can not accept your behaviour", however I don't believe she should apologize for evicting her. 

The girl will learn...or she won't. It's beyond Dana's ability to control anymore. Dana however, can choose what she is prepared to accept in her world and what she is not.


----------



## Iver

At 23 your daughter isn't going to school nor is she working. She has been mooching off of you instead. Of course she's angry that her extended vacation from real life is coming to an end. 

Unfortunately this is a conversation you should have had with her when she was 17. School full time or some kind of job training e.g. a nurses aide or join the military. 

At this point she needs to grow up. You've given her your requirements for her to move back; it's up to her to step up. (and for you to not backslide when she moves in and starts it all up again.)

I do think therapy if possible would be helpful for her. It's obvious she needs help learing how to cope with adulthood.

(I think there's a subset of the population that somehow latched onto the idea they should be living like Paris Hilton but haven't grasped that they need Money to do that.)


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Did she go to college?

I truly hope she turns her life around. By the time I was her age I had been working since I was 15, already owned my own car in my name and already had my first house, 401k, insurance, and tuition reimbursement through my company to put myself through college. I was working full time AND going to college full time at her age. She is wasting valuable time.


----------



## Mike6211

Iver said:


> ... I do think therapy if possible would be helpful for her ...


Or maybe for the whole family? (see my post at end of page 9)


----------



## DoF

Iver said:


> I do think therapy if possible would be helpful for her. It's obvious she needs help learing how to cope with adulthood.


I don't agree.

I don't believe you can help someone that is no willing to help themselves. I found this out quite early in my life with drug addict "friends". 

OP already tried helping her and she used it against her.

She needs to help herself......and other people's help will follow. The second she takes steps to find a job, quit the disrespectful behavior towards people that ARE helping her and gets her **** together, I'm SURE OP would reconsider reaching her hand out to her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

She most definitely needs to start taking responsibility for her choices, actions, behavior, self.


----------



## turnera

the guy said:


> Who the hell has a party at someone else's house....and to top it off won't clean their own sh1t up?


The babysitter I had when I was 8 - who even ate up all the food in our fridge while we cowered upstairs! 

Wasn't hired back, lol.


----------



## turnera

Anonymous07 said:


> No one was making excuses for her daughter's behavior. All that was said was the way this was handled was done very poorly. Yes, her daughter needs to grow up, as she is an adult, but she doesn't deserve to be tricked and dropped off in a dangerous place. She put her daughter in a very bad spot. It should have been handled differently.


Bullcorn. You guys obviously haven't dealt with an incorrigible person. She was given chance and chance and chance and chance.

She had it coming.


----------



## turnera

intheory said:


> She's got squat, from the sounds of it. I'm not getting into "why" that is; no-one here knows that.


Sure we do. She's argumentative, she disregards all rules, she FLAUNTS all rules, she lies, she got in the house after pissing off a LOT of OTHER people who kicked her out or wouldn't let her in, her last place to go, she purposely throws parties and leaves messes for others to clean up, she REFUSES to get a job and if she gets one she gets fired...

she has 'squat' because of HER actions. 

Jealousy or distress over her mom dating a young guy? So what? Grow up. And if nothing else, don't piss in the only pot you got.

Some people take years, decades, to learn the lessons the rest of us learn quite easily. They lose all friends, family, supporters, because they simply refuse to give an inch.

I watched a girl lose TWO different sets of kids by two different men, and end up in prison, because she simply wouldn't dance to the tune the rest of us understand as needed to just get along. At age 50...she's finally getting it. After ruining countless lives.

Stop feeling sorry for spoiled entitled brats.


----------



## Mr. Nail

I'm always taken aback when I see the word incorrigible. Not sure the condition exists.
MN


----------



## Anonymous07

DoF said:


> I don't agree.
> 
> I don't believe you can help someone that is no willing to help themselves. I found this out quite early in my life with drug addict "friends".
> 
> OP already tried helping her and she used it against her.
> 
> She needs to help herself......and other people's help will follow. The second she takes steps to find a job, quit the disrespectful behavior towards people that ARE helping her and gets her **** together, I'm SURE OP would reconsider reaching her hand out to her.


Her daughter is not some drug addict. She was raised this way, being spoiled and having everything give to her. OP didn't try to help her daughter, she just shoved her out to a homeless shelter. How should her daughter magically know how to act like a grown up without being taught? She was not given clear rules/expectations and consequences. She would tell her daughter things, but not follow through, so her daughter couldn't know what exactly those rules are(acting poorly, but thrown a nice birthday party - way to reward bad behavior). 

I think counseling for the whole family would be highly beneficial. I do hope OP reaches out to her daughter to help make things right and not give up on her. Both of them need to learn new ways of handling things, so that they can save their relationship.


----------



## turnera

Really? So far, has she been able to be corrected, improved, or reformed? She's burned every bridge she's touched.


----------



## turnera

Anonymous07 said:


> Her daughter is not some drug addict. She was raised this way, being spoiled and having everything give to her. OP didn't try to help her daughter, she just shoved her out to a homeless shelter.


After helping her out in several other situations, she helped her out by letting her move in, asking only that she get a job and clean up after herself. And this after she refused to have anything to do with mom because of mom's husband, and came ONLY because she'd burned every other bridge in the world. And don't forget the dad she grew up with. Her DAD gave everything to her, IIRC, despite OP's protestations, and the entitlement came from her dad.

OP DID try to help her, let her move in, and she trashed her house, trashed her husband, and thumbed her nose at them and cussed them out. They cleaned up after her, fed her, despite this 23 year old promising both to get a job and to clean up after herself, in order to be let in.

That's not trying to help?


----------



## Anonymous07

turnera said:


> Really? So far, has she been able to be corrected, improved, or reformed? She's burned every bridge she's touched.


They have not tried counseling, have not stated clear rules/consequences, etc. There are better ways to handle this situation.


----------



## turnera

Sure they did. She told her that if she let her come live there, she would have to get a job and clean up after herself. Her daughter agreed. And reneged. The daughter was freeloading, and everyone knew it. And more than that, she was becoming rude and abusive to everyone else in it, having contributed NOTHING.

So her mom pulled the contract.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

I can just imagine how cooperative this girl would be in counselling. As far as she's concerned she doesn't have a problem. She needs to endure some consequences before she's going to realize she has changes to make.


----------



## Anonymous07

turnera said:


> Sure they did. She told her that if she let her come live there, she would have to get a job and clean up after herself. Her daughter agreed. And reneged. The daughter was freeloading, and everyone knew it. And more than that, she was becoming rude and abusive to everyone else in it, having contributed NOTHING.
> 
> So her mom pulled the contract.


They told her, but did not consistently follow through on their own rules/consequences. Of course she took advantage. They rewarded her bad behavior with a lavish party and expensive gifts. Many people in her situation would most likely take advantage too when you know you can get away with doing very little and not have consistent consequences. She made it too easy for her daughter. 

She raised her this way. Her daughter does not handle stress well, and neither does Dana(obviously, this situation being an example). Her daughter maybe wants to do what she wants without thinking too much about the consequences of those actions and her mom does the same thing(didn't think through this situation of tricking and dropping her daughter off at a homeless shelter). Maybe she is manipulative, but look what Dana just did. Did she not manipulate her daughter into getting into the car? She is her mother's daughter. She has learned some behaviors from her mom. 

I understand being overwhelmed with a strong willed child/adult/person, but that doesn't mean you kick them out to the street without a clear plan. I hope they can save their mother-daughter relationship and do think that family counseling would be a very good idea, so they can deal with issues in a healthy way in the future.


----------



## turnera

Anonymous07 said:


> They told her, but did not consistently follow through on their own rules/consequences. Of course she took advantage. They rewarded her bad behavior with a lavish party and expensive gifts.


This 'child' is 23 years old. Who has to follow through on rules and consequences for AN ADULT?

This 'child' has a more than 20 year history of flagrantly refusing to obey commands, care for others, or do anything short of take for herself. She's pissed off every single person she knows, and her mom was the LAST chance she had at getting help.

SHE didn't raise her that way. Her husband did, and her daughter is the spitting image of her exhusband - all his bad faults. She's a walking nightmare. I hope you never have to deal with someone like that. I have, and it is horrendous and ruins everyone's lives.

And the only party I heard about was the one SHE threw at her MOM's house with her MOM's food and drinks.

The time for salvaging a relationship is AFTER this young woman gets off her high horse, and understands that she has to pay her way in life instead of sponging off of people.

I don't know what your deal is but this person is in no way entitled to anything at this point. The OP did what she felt she had to do to get her daughter out of her house. At THIS level of disrespect, her daughter would have flat out refused to leave. And we all know it.


----------



## CantePe

I've recently had to deal with a person who was never stood up to, never made to reap the consequences of her behaviours or legally stood up to.

I've done all three with this person, I was first person to ever do so.

Know what happened after she criminally defamed me to our employee, passed private information about us and our kids to total strangers, made multiple false allegations, lied to us, to others and about us, used us for money and materials and went after my child verbally? She burnt every bridge in town and came crawling back lying (still) about others being to blame for her actions trying to apologise (how does one apologise while blame shifting their actions to others right) for all the things other people she apparently "took the fall for" and they forced her to do.

She even had the brass ones to criminally blackmail the person she was blame shifting onto while attempting her pathetic apology

Want to know how to respond to people like this regardless of status (family, friend, etc). Tough love. In her case, I made no response back, I have maintained complete no contact and I considered this woman family (actually we have ancestorial ties between our families).

Sometimes some people will never learn, some learn slower, some learn faster. A 23 year old daughter should be standing on their own two feet by now or at least self sufficient for the most part. It is one thing to need mom's help as an adult but it's another to use and abuse mom.

If this was a 23 year old female friend I bet the tune of this thread would be a completely different melody altogether.

Selfish people who are allowed to walk all over family and friends never learn not to be selfish and we teach people how to treat us.


----------



## DoF

Anonymous07 said:


> They told her, but did not consistently follow through on their own rules/consequences. Of course she took advantage. They rewarded her bad behavior with a lavish party and expensive gifts. Many people in her situation would most likely take advantage too when you know you can get away with doing very little and not have consistent consequences. She made it too easy for her daughter.
> 
> She raised her this way. Her daughter does not handle stress well, and neither does Dana(obviously, this situation being an example). Her daughter maybe wants to do what she wants without thinking too much about the consequences of those actions and her mom does the same thing(didn't think through this situation of tricking and dropping her daughter off at a homeless shelter). Maybe she is manipulative, but look what Dana just did. Did she not manipulate her daughter into getting into the car? She is her mother's daughter. She has learned *some* behaviors from her mom.
> 
> I understand being overwhelmed with a strong willed child/adult/person, but that doesn't mean you kick them out to the street without a clear plan. I hope they can save their mother-daughter relationship and do think that family counseling would be a very good idea, so they can deal with issues in a healthy way in the future.


Don't blame how her daughter is on OP. Key words above is SOME, it's not ALL.

I've seen SO many ****ty people come out of great marriages/parents it's just appalling. I've also seen many great people come out of horrible marriages/parents.

Don't blame the parents. People will be who they are at times REGARDLESS how you raise them!

OP's situation is certainly the case. 

Why in the world would she have a plan for AN ADULT WOMAN THAT HAS IGNORE THE RULES, DISRESPECTED HER AND THE HOUSEHOLD AND DIDN"T GET HER **** TOGETHER.

Truth is, you can have all the plans in the world.......she will still be a ****ty person (and her latest actions prove that).

She is the type of person that ONLY learns the hard way.

LET HER


----------



## DanaS

Blossom Leigh said:


> Did she go to college?
> 
> I truly hope she turns her life around. By the time I was her age I had been working since I was 15, already owned my own car in my name and already had my first house, 401k, insurance, and tuition reimbursement through my company to put myself through college. I was working full time AND going to college full time at her age. She is wasting valuable time.


She went for 2 semesters but dropped out. She certainly hasn't been the most motivated/ambitious child to say the least. Heck, when she was 16 she begged me to let her drop out of HS but I said no and she did graduate, but with mostly Cs and DS.



turnera said:


> Sure we do. She's argumentative, she disregards all rules, she FLAUNTS all rules, she lies, she got in the house after pissing off a LOT of OTHER people who kicked her out or wouldn't let her in, her last place to go, she purposely throws parties and leaves messes for others to clean up, she REFUSES to get a job and if she gets one she gets fired...
> 
> she has 'squat' because of HER actions.
> 
> Jealousy or distress over her mom dating a young guy? So what? Grow up. And if nothing else, don't piss in the only pot you got.
> 
> Some people take years, decades, to learn the lessons the rest of us learn quite easily. They lose all friends, family, supporters, because they simply refuse to give an inch.
> 
> I watched a girl lose TWO different sets of kids by two different men, and end up in prison, because she simply wouldn't dance to the tune the rest of us understand as needed to just get along. At age 50...she's finally getting it. After ruining countless lives.
> 
> Stop feeling sorry for spoiled entitled brats.


Thanks. While I certainly hope my daughter never goes to prison, I do worry her laziness could result in her trying to take the easy route, legal or not. 

Though, in the unfortunate circumstance she would be arrested, I would not bail her out. Nor would I hire the best lawyers money can buy since she put herself in that position.



Anonymous07 said:


> Her daughter is not some drug addict. She was raised this way, being spoiled and having everything give to her. OP didn't try to help her daughter, she just shoved her out to a homeless shelter. How should her daughter magically know how to act like a grown up without being taught? She was not given clear rules/expectations and consequences. She would tell her daughter things, but not follow through, so her daughter couldn't know what exactly those rules are(acting poorly, but thrown a nice birthday party - way to reward bad behavior).
> 
> I think counseling for the whole family would be highly beneficial. I do hope OP reaches out to her daughter to help make things right and not give up on her. Both of them need to learn new ways of handling things, so that they can save their relationship.


I will defend myself here. Growing up she was not spoiled; either by me or my ex husband. But since as long as I can remember she took after my ex and preferred spending time with him than me. I did discipline her but my ex would always say I was in the wrong and pretty much would spend lots of time with her and she always had his side. I tried to get to her whether it be taking her shopping, taking her to the salon etc. but she would refuse and just spend time with my ex. 



turnera said:


> Really? So far, has she been able to be corrected, improved, or reformed? She's burned every bridge she's touched.


Exactly! She has POe'd everyone else off, so she came to me as a last resort. When she fragrantly disobeys the rules (of which I DID explain to her) what am I supposed to do?



turnera said:


> Sure they did. She told her that if she let her come live there, she would have to get a job and clean up after herself. Her daughter agreed. And reneged. The daughter was freeloading, and everyone knew it. And more than that, she was becoming rude and abusive to everyone else in it, having contributed NOTHING.
> 
> So her mom pulled the contract.


Couldn't have said it better myself. I did explain what her conditions upon returning were and she said it would be no problem, but apparently it was because she completely disrespected me and my husband. Hell, a few days before I sent her to the homeless shelter my daughter made the comment "You know, it's really gross that you are having another child at your age, and even to a man my age". I yelled at her telling here I didn't want to hear it, she went back to her room. 

She has made many snarky/mean comments about me, my pregnancy AND my husband.


Thanks turnera and cantepe, you understand.

While, as a mother I do still love my daughter, does it make me bad if I am more worried about getting through this pregnancy and spending time with my husband than my daughter? I have sent her several more texts but she hasn't replied. If my daughter wishes to contact me I am more than willing to listen, but until then my current pregnancy and husband are my top priorities.


----------



## jld

*"You know, it's really gross that you are having another child at your age, and even to a man my age". I yelled at her telling here I didn't want to hear it, she went back to her room. *

I think that was a real chance to open up dialogue. That was the door to her heart opening . . . before being slammed shut.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Sounds like she's stuck in child/parent mode rather than seeing herself as a adult and seeing you as not just being her mother.


----------



## EleGirl

DanaS said:


> Thanks turnera and cantepe, you understand.
> 
> While, as a mother I do still love my daughter, does it make me bad if I am more worried about getting through this pregnancy and spending time with my husband than my daughter? I have sent her several more texts but she hasn't replied. If my daughter wishes to contact me I am more than willing to listen, but until then my current pregnancy and husband are my top priorities.


You know... a lot of those who posted here understand and agree that you should not put up with what your daughter was doing. 

It was the dropping her off at a homeless shelter, basically throwing her out n the street with $20 in the middle of the winter. That was what many of us were concerned about.


----------



## Starstarfish

Along with the folks hinting if not outright blaming OP because of her choice of husband (age difference is gross, apparently if the older partner is a woman - I've never seen that same comment when a male OP notes such an age gap) or obvioiusly being a bad mother and partially if not wholly to blame because of her daughter's behavior. 

Your message might be clear, EleGirl, but that of others is easily lost in what else they are saying.


----------



## DanaS

jld said:


> *"You know, it's really gross that you are having another child at your age, and even to a man my age". I yelled at her telling here I didn't want to hear it, she went back to her room. *
> 
> I think that was a real chance to open up dialogue. That was the door to her heart opening . . . before being slammed shut.


Well, I though she was being unnecessarily cruel.


----------



## DanaS

Starstarfish said:


> Along with the folks hinting if not outright blaming OP because of her choice of husband (age difference is gross, apparently if the older partner is a woman - I've never seen that same comment when a male OP notes such an age gap) or obvioiusly being a bad mother and partially if not wholly to blame because of her daughter's behavior.
> 
> Your message might be clear, EleGirl, but that of others is easily lost in what else they are saying.


This is angers me. If it were a woman my daughter's age that hooked up with/married a man a man my age would you find it gross?


----------



## EleGirl

DanaS said:


> This is angers me. If it were a woman my daughter's age that hooked up with/married a man a man my age would you find it gross?


Who are you asking this of? Neither Starfish now I have said we find you being married to a younger guy gross.

I do think that if your daughter's father were to marry a women near her age, that she would be grossed out by that. And even more grossed out if/when the young wife came up pregnant.


----------



## DanaS

Starstarfish said:


> Along with the folks hinting if not outright blaming OP because of her choice of husband (age difference is gross, apparently if the older partner is a woman - I've never seen that same comment when a male OP notes such an age gap) or obvioiusly being a bad mother and partially if not wholly to blame because of her daughter's behavior.
> 
> Your message might be clear, EleGirl, but that of others is easily lost in what else they are saying.


I figured from this it is gross.


----------



## DanaS

EleGirl said:


> Who are you asking this of? Neither Starfish now I have said we find you being married to a younger guy gross.
> 
> I do think that if your daughter's father were to marry a women near her age, that she would be grossed out by that. And even more grossed out if/when the young wife came up pregnant.


So out of curiosity, would you find it less "gross" if a man my age were to impregnate a woman of my husbands age?


----------



## EleGirl

DanaS said:


> I figured from this it is gross.


Yes there were a few posters (one? two?) who made a comment about it and Starstarfish was referring to those posts. 

But most who did bring it up were only saying that they can see how from your daughter's perspective SHE might think it was gross. And as I said... she's probably think it was gross if it was her dad and a very young woman too.

Shoot, when I remarried, my son and his kids who were 10 & 12 thought it was gross when we showed any kind of affection. And we are 6 years apart.. with me being the older.

Kids just think that it's gross that parents are sexual. and yes, even adult "kids" think that.


----------



## EleGirl

DanaS said:


> So out of curiosity, would you find it less "gross" if a man my age were to impregnate a woman of my husbands age?


Keep in mind that I did not say that I found you being married to a younger man gross. And I do not find it gross that you are pregnant by him. Why would I care one way or the other?

Would I find it gross if a man your age married a younger woman and she became pregnant? No... I would think about it the same way I think about your situation.

If all parties involved are consenting and of age... it's cool.


----------



## Openminded

DanaS said:


> Well, I though she was being unnecessarily cruel.


There is still a double standard regarding women and men. I doubt that will totally change any time soon. 

At her age, she probably can't imagine being your age (I couldn't when I was her age) so pregnancy at your age probably really is gross to her. Plus, children are often uncomfortable with the idea of a mother, especially, being sexually active (the "Madonna" thing, I guess). 

That's what she's likely thinking. Unfair, yes, but not all that surprising when you put yourself in her position. She's obviously very self-absorbed and thinks life's all about her. Your situation apparently embarrasses her and so she lashes out at you.

It's not a good idea for her to live with you.


----------



## jld

I think she might have a change of heart when you have the baby. Both of you are going to love that baby like crazy. I think the baby will be the bridge.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I really don't think it's the age gap itself, either gender, that people or your daughter would feel weird about. It's that the new spouse is so close in age with the daughter. 

I have no issues with age gaps, date whoever. I would feel weird if my Mother dated a man my age. That's my playing field, at that age my husband was older than that. 

It is difficult to look at a new step-parent as an authority figure, it would be even harder if that person was the same age as you. 

It would also be confusing to see you in the same position as herself and her friends. Newly married to a man in their age group, pregnant, these are things she would identify with peers and herself. 

There's no need to be defensive about it, it's just another aspect of this blended family that should be considered. Understanding her POV would be helpful IMO


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> *"You know, it's really gross that you are having another child at your age, and even to a man my age". I yelled at her telling here I didn't want to hear it, she went back to her room. *
> 
> I think that was a real chance to open up dialogue. That was the door to her heart opening . . . before being slammed shut.


 I agree. Even if she was disrespectful saying it, you could have been the better person and asked her to open up.


----------



## Anonymous07

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I really don't think it's the age gap itself, either gender, that people or your daughter would feel weird about. It's that the new spouse is so close in age with the daughter.
> 
> I have no issues with age gaps, date whoever. I would feel weird if my Mother dated a man my age. That's my playing field, at that age my husband was older than that.
> 
> It is difficult to look at a new step-parent as an authority figure, it would be even harder if that person was the same age as you.
> 
> It would also be confusing to see you in the same position as herself and her friends. Newly married to a man in their age group, pregnant, these are things she would identify with peers and herself.
> 
> There's no need to be defensive about it, it's just another aspect of this blended family that should be considered. Understanding her POV would be helpful IMO


:iagree:

This 100%. As I have stated before, age gaps don't bother me at all and I'm even in one myself. The issue I see is that you are with someone who is very similar in age to your own child. I find that part strange, as do many others, including your daughter. 

When you have a blended family, it takes time to become a family. It takes time for everyone involved to become comfortable and into their new roles. You expect your daughter to just immediately accept your new husband(and the whole situation - pregnancy, etc.) and that's not how it works. It would be helpful for you to try to look at things from your daughter's perspective. Try to see things from her shoes instead of pushing her away and labeling her as the "bad" daughter.


----------



## turnera

When I see age gaps, being a psychology buff, all I think about is how their age difference is going to result in changes in compatibility as they age, as each age group - unless the person is an outlier (and your H may be, since he chose an older woman) - goes through certain typical stages at each age in life. So I know 20-somethings will experience A, B, and C, while 40-somethings have already been through those things and will now be working on X, Y, and Z, and the two different phases may result in problems.


----------



## turnera

Anonymous07 said:


> It would be helpful for you to try to look at things from your daughter's perspective. Try to see things from her shoes instead of pushing her away and labeling her as the "bad" daughter.


It would be helpful for you to do this while your daughter is living SOMEWHERE ELSE. She has no business in your home again until she has gone through the A, B, and C I discussed and grown up, learned humility, and accepted the world doesn't revolve around her. 

She can learn all that stuff from somewhere else while you two try to create a new, adult relationship.

And Anon, guess what? She IS the bad daughter. For now. Hopefully, she'll grow up and realize it and put it behind her.


----------



## Anonymous07

turnera said:


> It would be helpful for you to do this while your daughter is living SOMEWHERE ELSE. She has no business in your home again until she has gone through the A, B, and C I discussed and grown up, learned humility, and accepted the world doesn't revolve around her.
> 
> She can learn all that stuff from somewhere else while you two try to create a new, adult relationship.
> 
> And Anon, guess what? *She IS the bad daughter.* For now. Hopefully, she'll grow up and realize it and put it behind her.


I disagree. 

Her daughter's actions are not the best and she needs to grow up at some point, but she is not a bad person. Her actions/choices are "bad", but she is not bad. She just needs a little extra help.


----------



## Miss Taken

I would hesitate to put labels on people. Label the actions, not the person. At 23, it'd be a bit much to say she is bad. She is behaving badly. Behaviors can change. At 23, I would not have thought the changes I've seen in my sister were even possible being so extreme at one end of the spectrum. I could not foresee such a great pendulum swing to the other side but it happened.


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## NobodySpecial

^^ T and A, I agree with both of you and disagree with both of you. Labeling a person "bad" is not terribly useful. But character is defined by actions. The help should be available. But only if and when remedy and amends have been commenced and accountability demonstrated.


----------



## Openminded

She may like having a baby sister and she may not. I assume she has been your only child. I was an only child and never wanted siblings so not everyone does. Maybe part of this is she doesn't want to share you -- with your new husband and especially with a baby. Hopefully, she'll get that under control eventually if that's really the case. In any event, it's time for her to learn to be on her own and not living with you.


----------



## vms

Openminded said:


> She may like having a baby sister and she may not. I assume she has been your only child. I was an only child and never wanted siblings so not everyone does. Maybe part of this is she doesn't want to share you -- with your new husband and especially with a baby. Hopefully, she'll get that under control eventually if that's really the case. In any event, it's time for her to learn to be on her own and not living with you.


Yep. I was an only child. There wasn't another child in the family until I was 18. I was incredibly jealous of him. It wasn't rational - I was an adult, and had been living on my own for a year. But that emotion was there nonetheless. I was suddenly not "the" granddaughter, "the" niece. I suddenly had to share my family in a way I'd never had to before, and that was scary. 
I eventually got over it, but honestly it took me having my own kid before I could, because then I was a mom too and my focus wasn't on me near as much anymore.


----------



## Starstarfish

> This is angers me. If it were a woman my daughter's age that hooked up with/married a man a man my age would you find it gross?


Sorry that my opinion wasn't my readily apparent, OP. I wasn't saying I agreed, I was commenting on (at least what I perceived to be) other's opinions.

I don't personally have an issue with it, no.


----------



## turnera

I never said to label her. I said in this case she IS the bad daughter because she took something special and trashed it. Until she owns that, until OP approaches this with the attitude that you screwed this chance up but we can talk - OWNING that she screwed it up, she will never learn or get better. OP can't whitewash what her daughter did out of guilt. Nor can she trash her daughter. This is up to the daughter.


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## Mr. Nail

My defense of my hatred for the word incorrigible, which means bad beyond reform. is not the topic of this discussion.


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## MaritimeGuy

Yes the girl may be uncomfortable with the age gap and the proximity of the new spouse's age to her own. If she were 6 you might expect her to blurt out honest comments that if not for the fact she was 6 would be considered hurtful comments. By the age of 23 she should have learned some tact. 

I may not approve of every decision of every person around me but unless I'm asked to comment on it or it impacts me directly I keep my mouth shut. I would expect a 23 year old to have learned that by now. 

She was in her mothers home well beyond the age where she should be self supporting. Common sense would dictate you keep your comments to yourself and be grateful for the fact you're being provided food and shelter. 

A question I have is about her father. Can she not stay with him? It sounds like they're two peas in a pod.


----------



## Iver

MaritimeGuy said:


> ...By the age of 23 she should have learned some tact.
> 
> ...Common sense would dictate you keep your comments to yourself and be grateful for the fact you're being provided food and shelter.


This sums it up nicely. The concept of cause and effect seem to have not taken hold with her. 

She is living on her mothers charity and still can not resist insulting her. Beyond the immediate logistics of her life I strongly recommend getting her into therapy.


----------



## Anonymous07

Any updates? Wondering how your daughter is doing?


----------



## DanaS

Anonymous07 said:


> Any updates? Wondering how your daughter is doing?


Hi, sorry for not posting any updates. I have been busy with work and other things. A few days ago I did manage to get in touch with my daughter and she agreed to meet me at a diner. 

I told her how I do love her and want the best for her but I can't deal with the way she acts. She went on about how I am being inconsiderate of her feelings and I should never have gotten with my husband. She went on and on about how she hates him and saying mean and nasty things. 

I told her that was none of her business and irrelevant to what's going on. I asked her about how her situation is living with an ex and she said "I hate it, it's your fault for driving me to live with him". I told her no, her attitude is. If she wants to work things out and come back home under very strict and specified conditions I will alow it. She declined saying she doesn't want to live in such a "sick" environment. 

We only talked about 15 minutes but the I just don't get the hatred my daughter has on my husband. And frankly, I am tired of dealing with her, if she wants to wisen up, and show she is applying at jobs or gets one I will consider letting her move back. I am 7 months pregnant now and honestly much more concerned about my new child and husband than my daughter's feelings. 

Maybe some will say I am being horrible, but I just can't tolerate my daughter right now and until she grows up (assuming she ever does) I am tired of dealing with her.


----------



## Trojan John

I don't blame you at all. She has a lot of maturing to do.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I'm glad you pointed out her attitude choices. Regardless of her feelings about your husband she is not to be destructive in your home. She can disagree with choices, but that does not give her license to abuse. That is your truth drum...

Daughter when you are ready to consistenly choose better behaviors you are welcome in our home. You have to power to choose, do so wisely.

And lets call it what it is .. ingratitude and disrespect.

She really has to figure out a way to make it on her own, so she needs that attitude adjustment anyway.


----------



## jld

Another opening missed.


----------



## batsociety

I definitely don't think you're being horrible. Like Blossom Leigh said, her dislike for your husband does not give her the right to disrespect you and your home. She needs to learn that this attitude of hers just ain't gonna cut it anymore. Sometimes you have to be harsh.

But then again, I kind of understand her, too. My husband's parents split when he was young and they've both always had partners on and off and he'd never had a problem with it but when he was... 24, I think, his mom started dating a 28-year-old. His attitude changed immediately, it was really surprising. He was always cool and mature before, even if he didn't like a guy his mom was seeing he'd politely tolerate it and put her happiness before his opinions but this was just so different. 

He was disgusted and upset and he wouldn't let his mom look after our kids if her boyfriend even might possibly be there because "he's just a baby! He couldn't handle them!" Despite him being older than us. He couldn't see why this guy would want to take up with an older woman - he thought he was planning to marry her and kill her for her life insurance, thought he was a pedophile and only using her to get to our kids, thought he just wanted to mooch off her while he went out and partied and cheated. He went absolutely crazy about it. His birthday, Thanksgiving and Christmas were a nightmare ("I'm not going if he's going to be there!") Eventually he calmed it down to just glaring every time the poor guy opened his mouth. They broke up eventually of their own accord (and are now both married to different people) but I have to say, it was a relief. He may have learned to deal with it but seeing as he still cringes when it's brought up some 10+ years later... I don't know. 

But ignoring all of that, you guys also have the added obstacle of a baby being on the way. Maybe your daughter feels like she's being pushed aside, like she'll be forgotten as you create this new family? I didn't read every post in this thread, but was she so horrible about the situation before you announced your pregnancy?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Another opening missed.



I saw that missed opportunity too, but I see one on the daughters side as well.


----------



## jld

Someone has to be the leader. I don't think the daughter has the maturity to do it yet. But she may be the eventual leader, if she can get healing first.


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> Another opening missed.


What, letting her move home again so she can continue to NOT work, NOT clean up after herself, and NOT stop making rude remarks to her mom and stepfather?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Someone has to be the leader. I don't think the daughter has the maturity to do it yet. But she may be the eventual leader, if she can get healing first.


Both need to do their part, but not at the expense of accountability.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I agree jld. At least listening and understanding the daughter's feelings about her step-Dad could have helped. It IS relevant to the situation and she might just need to feel heard.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> What, letting her move home again so she can continue to NOT work, NOT clean up after herself, and NOT stop making rude remarks to her mom and stepfather?


Addressing her hurt over her mother's marrying a much younger man. Active listening would be excellent here.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I agree jld. At least listening and understanding the daughter's feelings about her step-Dad could have helped. It IS relevant to the situation and she might just need to feel heard.


Totally agree, SGC.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Both need to do their part, but not at the expense of accountability.


Accountability often comes after people feel understood. When warm feelings return, the feelings that we have when we're being listened to, respected, and understood, we are much more likely to open our hearts to be understanding to the sorrows of the other, and to truly want to make amends.

I don't think Dana's daughter thinks what she did was right. I would like to see her mother make it possible for her to let her guard down and truly make things right with her stepfather. 

And he could be playing a much bigger role than he is. I would really like to see more leadership out of him.


----------



## TiggyBlue

I do wonder how the daughter would react if someone was doing the same thing to her that she's doing to her mother?
She doesn't have to like her mother's decisions or feel entirely comfortable with them, however trying to make that other people's problem is only going to affect her in the long run.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Accountability often comes after people feel understood. When warm feelings return, the feelings that we have when we're being listened to, respected, and understood, we are much more likely to open our hearts to be understanding to the sorrows of the other, and to truly want to make amends.
> 
> I don't think Dana's daughter thinks what she did was right. I would like to see her mother make it possible for her to let her guard down and truly make things right with her stepfather.
> 
> And he could be playing a much bigger role than he is. I would really like to see more leadership out of him.


And sometimes it does come from feeling the painful consequences. I would try whichever one works for this daughter. Acknowledge her feelings, but not spare the rod if that is what it took. I would not leave her in that state.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> And sometimes it does come from feeling the painful consequences. I would try whichever one works for this daughter. Acknowledge her feelings, but not spare the rod if that is what it took. I would not leave her in that state.


With an adult I would focus on empathy.


----------



## DoF

DanaS said:


> Hi, sorry for not posting any updates. I have been busy with work and other things. A few days ago I did manage to get in touch with my daughter and she agreed to meet me at a diner.
> 
> I told her how I do love her and want the best for her but I can't deal with the way she acts. She went on about how I am being inconsiderate of her feelings and I should never have gotten with my husband. She went on and on about how she hates him and saying mean and nasty things.
> 
> I told her that was none of her business and irrelevant to what's going on. I asked her about how her situation is living with an ex and she said "I hate it, it's your fault for driving me to live with him". I told her no, her attitude is. If she wants to work things out and come back home under very strict and specified conditions I will alow it. She declined saying she doesn't want to live in such a "sick" environment.
> 
> We only talked about 15 minutes but the I just don't get the hatred my daughter has on my husband. And frankly, I am tired of dealing with her, if she wants to wisen up, and show she is applying at jobs or gets one I will consider letting her move back. I am 7 months pregnant now and honestly much more concerned about my new child and husband than my daughter's feelings.
> 
> Maybe some will say I am being horrible, but I just can't tolerate my daughter right now and until she grows up (assuming she ever does) I am tired of dealing with her.


See here is the thing, she is trying to lay blame vs working on fixing her situation.

There she is, moooching off someone else.....and STILL no job to take care of HERSELF.

All while she is trying to guilt you into taking her back like it's YOUR fault?

That's really pathetic, she is not even learning the hard way.

I don't blame you ONE bit for being tired of her, I would be as well.......and would leave "contact" up to her at this point.

You reached out/took her out for dinner etc, took initiative.

Let her do it next time....


----------



## jld

She is the mother, DoF. I doubt this is an equal relationship in the daughter's eyes.


----------



## DoF

jld said:


> Someone has to be the leader. I don't think the daughter has the maturity to do it yet. But she may be the eventual leader, if she can get healing first.


Not sure about this.

Dana CLEARLY took the initiative and leader role by inviting her out for dinner (probably paying for it) and create open environment to talk things out and hopefully improve the situation.

Her daughter did NOTHING but lay blame and turned hostile....

Her daughter is simply inconsiderate and unwilling to accept REALITY. She probably lies SO much to HERSELF that she things her own lies are true (certainly seems that way).

I'm SHOCKED OP still took this initiative to be honest... I probably wouldn't. 

At this point, I would expect a visit from her and hopefully see some self recognition and apology......mind you, this might NEVER happen or happen many years from now (based on what OP is telling us about her daughter).


----------



## DoF

jld said:


> She is the mother, DoF.


What is that suppose to mean?


----------



## jld

She is the leader in the relationship. She is supposed to be the more mature one.

If she had reflected her daughter's feelings back to her, I think the daughter would've shared more of her heart with her mother. If her mother could've accepted what she was saying, even without necessarily agreeing, I think the daughter would have eventually been willing to hear the mother's heart also. And I think they would be on their way to healing.


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## jld

I think what messes people up on this forum is the idea of equal relationships. If the person in the natural leadership position would actually take leadership, particularly with genuine concern for the follower's feelings, problems could be solved much more quickly.

We simply do not all have the same capabilities. It's much harder to solve problems if we pretend like we do.


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## Blossom Leigh

Meet the person where they are, but don't accept abuse.


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## jld

The more they feel genuine desire to understand them from you, the less likely they are to be abusive.

And what is abusive anyway? Their fear coming out. 

Remember, perfect love casts out fear. Know your motives going in.


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## Blossom Leigh

agreed unless they can't see the love... not everyone can see it.


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## jld

If they've been hurt deeply, it may take time for them to feel your love. Patience and persistence.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> If they've been hurt deeply, it may take time for them to feel your love. Patience and persistence.


QFT


----------



## DoF

jld said:


> She is the leader in the relationship. She is supposed to be the more mature one.


She was a leader for 18+ years.....and still is.

She WAS more mature and took initiative to meet her "user/abuser" daughter.......



jld said:


> If she had reflected her daughter's feelings back to her, I think the daughter would've shared more of her heart with her mother. If her mother could've accepted what she was saying, even without necessarily agreeing, I think the daughter would have eventually been willing to hear the mother's heart also. And I think they would be on their way to healing.



Heart? That's not what OP is looking for. She is looking for her daughter to get a F'in job and do something with her life!!!

What does "heart to heart" really accomplish?

There is only ONE way to healing here, and that's for her daughter to ACTION to HELP HERSELF.

Time will come where her mom won't even give a crap (and that time is approaching FAST)


----------



## DoF

jld said:


> I think what messes people up on this forum is the idea of equal relationships. If the person in the natural leadership position would actually take leadership, particularly with genuine concern for the follower's feelings, problems could be solved much more quickly.
> 
> We simply do not all have the same capabilities. It's much harder to solve problems if we pretend like we do.


At this point, relationship is 50/50. They are both mature adults.

Problem is, her daughter has a losers mentality and takes the position you are talking about from he get to......and in the end enables herself to abuse/take advantage of people.

Like I said early on the thread, SOME PEOPLE CANNOT BE HELPED. Especially if they are not willing to help themselves.

The longer this thread goes on, and more hope OP might have....the more we see that.

And to OP's defense, that is completely ok too. Look some people are just they way they are....and that's it.

This is who she is.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

My thoughts are that some people cannot be helped easily.


----------



## turnera

jld, you're basing your intent on someone being amenable to logic and love. Some people aren't built that way. According to OP, her daughter has been, her entire life, the 'ram your head against the wall because you were told not to' kind of person.

I get your point that OP needs to show kindness. IMO, she did. She let the daughter into her home, with rules. The daughter spat on those rules...because she was upset at being replaced? Because she could? Who knows?

But she did.

Could OP have shown more compassion during that 15-MINUTE lunch? Sure. 

Should she have invited the daughter back to live with her AGAIN after spitting on all the rules of the house?

Absolutely not. That helps neither the OP nor the daughter. People who ram their heads against walls are NOT helped by being given continuous handouts in the name of being nice or compassionate or even a mother. Mothers of drug addicts should not coddle their child and say 'oh, it's ok, you'll figure it out eventually, here's some more of our fine silver to sell for your next shot of heroin.' They should say 'I love you but I won't enable you; if you won't quit with my help, you will make your choices on your own - just not here.' The former does NOT help a head-rammer figure out life.


----------



## jld

Heart-to-heart is *exactly* what is needed here.

Dana is the leader. The parents are until they become incapacitated. They have that stature in their children's minds.

Dana needs to open herself to hearing her daughter's feelings. Not taking them personally, not using them as a guide to her own life. But she has to be able to hear them and show empathy. Without empathy, this relationship is always going to be strained, if it lasts at all.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

jld said:


> Heart-to-heart is *exactly* what is needed here.
> 
> Dana is the leader. The parents are until they become incapacitated. They have that stature in their children's minds.
> 
> Dana needs to open herself to hearing her daughter's feelings. Not taking them personally, not using them as a guide to her own life. But she has to be able to hear them and show empathy. Without empathy, this relationship is always going to be strained, if it lasts at all.


:iagree:
and showing it will teach the daughter how to listen with empathy and understanding too. We can still learn from our parents at that age.


----------



## jld

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> :iagree:
> and showing it will teach the daughter how to listen with empathy and understanding too. We can still learn from our parents at that age.


Yes, Dana could be a good role model. But first she needs to humble herself and see how she could be doing better. Just getting defensive is not going to get her there.


----------



## DoF

Blossom Leigh said:


> My thoughts are that some people cannot be helped easily.


Some people cannot be helped AT ALL


----------



## jld

She has not yet used effective methods.


----------



## DoF

jld said:


> She has not yet used effective methods.


That is quite the opposite from reality/truth.

I'm sorry


----------



## jld

DoF said:


> That is quite the opposite from reality/truth.
> 
> I'm sorry


Please help me understand your view.

My view is that until she uses empathy to see through her daughter's eyes, without necessarily agreeing with her, effective methods have not been tried.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Please help me understand your view.
> 
> My view is that until she uses empathy to see through her daughter's eyes, without necessarily agreeing with her, effective methods have not been tried.


I used this with my birth dad and we reconciled

I used this with my mother and she blew up and shut me out

That's been my experience so far.

I do agree with the method, I've just seen it not work right off the bat with some people, they need something else first. 

My H ended up needing a tough love action from me before the above made a difference.

I think ONLY external forces will work on my mother, but we will see this go round.


----------



## Anonymous07

DoF said:


> What does "heart to heart" really accomplish?
> 
> There is only ONE way to healing here, and that's for her daughter to ACTION to HELP HERSELF.


A heart to heart can save their mother-daughter relationship. 

Everyone in the world wants to feel understood and loved, including her daughter. Her feelings get pushed aside often and she is told they mean nothing. If Dana could listen to her and say she understands(does not mean she agrees), then I think it can do a lot for her daughter. There is not one way to find healing here. 

There is a lot(many years) of past hurt to get through, so it will take time. Personally, I could never give up on my child. 

You do have another baby on the way, but your other daughter needs you too. I'm only a few years older than your daughter and I still look to my mom for help or support at times. I like to ask her about different parenting issues I have with my son or what she thinks about a certain topic. I like getting outside opinions to think about, so then I can use all of that information to make a choice for how I want to move forward. I'm still learning from my mom on different things and she has been a good example in many circumstances. Once you are a parent, you are a parent for life.


----------



## turnera

Try to remember that this daughter never HAS looked to her mother for anything other than physical support - money, housing, food, party supplies. She got all that 'support' from her dad.

I really do get that the daughter feels betrayed and unwanted because of OP's unusual marriage. But you guys keep acting like she has SUDDENLY become this hurt, betrayed, crying out individual after a life of loving bonding with her mom. That's not what OP has stated. Her daughter has spent her entire life butting heads with her mom and everyone else, burning every bridge she's even come near, let alone crossed. 

It's what she does.

Show her sympathy, sure. Be available to listen to her, don't be defensive, sure. I suspect OP has quite a bit of embarrassment to work through over her relationship with her new husband and its ramifications and that colors her reaction (not to mention her frustration with what she's had to deal with from the daughter).

But pretend her daughter is this innocent little doe-eyed sweety who's just feeling replaced and crying about the missed bond between her and her mom? Uh, no. That helps no one. At her age, she needs to understand what HER OWN ACTIONS do to her own relationships and situation.


----------



## Anonymous07

My relationship with my mom was rough for quite a while. My mom lost my trust when I was about 15(lied to me, told my secrets to others, etc) and it took many years for her to regain my trust. In the years following, we were not close and butted heads a lot, but the way my mom handled things helped significantly to heal our relationship. We're really close now because of that. 

Yes their relationship has always been rough, but it doesn't mean she should give up her daughter. Her daughter has been through a lot with her parents divorce(which usually is not pretty) and the new husband/family. Kids tend to rebel because they want to be seen/heard, not because they want to act bad. They're looking for attention/love/understanding. As with any relationship, people have to feel safe before they can begin to fix the problems they have. If her daughter can feel safe with her, I think she can open up and begin to move forward.


----------



## TiggyBlue

jld said:


> Please help me understand your view.
> 
> My view is that until she uses empathy to see through her daughter's eyes, without necessarily agreeing with her, effective methods have not been tried.


I do see your point JLD, but I think that the empathy needs to go both ways.
It sounds like both goes on the defense and shuts down communication.


----------



## turnera

Anonymous07 said:


> Yes their relationship has always been rough, but it doesn't mean she should give up her daughter.


She didn't.



> *I told her how I do love her and want the best for her* but I can't deal with the way she acts. She went on about how I am being inconsiderate of her feelings and I should never have gotten with my husband. She went on and on about how she hates him and saying mean and nasty things.
> 
> I told her that was none of her business and irrelevant to what's going on. *I asked her about how her situation is *living with an ex and she said "I hate it, it's your fault for driving me to live with him".* I told her no, her attitude is. If she wants to work things out and come back home under very strict and specified conditions I will alow it.* She declined saying she doesn't want to live in such a "sick" environment.


----------



## jld

TiggyBlue said:


> I do see your point JLD, but I think that the empathy needs to go both ways.
> It sounds like both goes on the defense and shuts down communication.


Is Dana cannot be the leader, it will be up to her daughter to become the leader if there is to be a relationship. This is really a test of Dana's maturity.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Try to remember that this daughter never HAS looked to her mother for anything other than physical support - money, housing, food, party supplies. She got all that 'support' from her dad.
> 
> Even more reason for Dana to turn this around, starting with her own attitude towards her daughter.
> 
> I really do get that the daughter feels betrayed and unwanted because of OP's unusual marriage. But you guys keep acting like she has SUDDENLY become this hurt, betrayed, crying out individual after a life of loving bonding with her mom. That's not what OP has stated. Her daughter has spent her entire life butting heads with her mom and everyone else, burning every bridge she's even come near, let alone crossed.
> 
> We are also reading between the lines. And we see the little girl inside.
> 
> It's what she does.
> 
> Show her sympathy, sure. Be available to listen to her, don't be defensive, sure. I suspect OP has quite a bit of embarrassment to work through over her relationship with her new husband and its ramifications and that colors her reaction (not to mention her frustration with what she's had to deal with from the daughter).
> 
> I would have been dumbfounded if my mom had divorced and remarried a man five years older than myself. I think all of her feelings are very understandable. I would also guess that the stepfather is a very nice man and they could have a good relationship if he and her mother could take a different approach with the daughter.
> 
> But pretend her daughter is this innocent little doe-eyed sweety who's just feeling replaced and crying about the missed bond between her and her mom? Uh, no. That helps no one. At her age, she needs to understand what HER OWN ACTIONS do to her own relationships and situation.


I think she's seeing that. She's living the consequences every day.


----------



## turnera

Agree to disagree, jld. This girl will NOT become all warm and gushy just because OP hugs her and says ok, come home. Her daughter will just say what she said last summer - ditch your husband first.


----------



## jld

turnera said:


> Agree to disagree, jld. This girl will NOT become all warm and gushy just because OP hugs her and says ok, come home. Her daughter will just say what she said last summer - ditch your husband first.


But that is not going to happen, and her daughter knows it.

Turnera, she is looking for some recognition of her feelings. She loves her mother and wants to be close to her, whether her mother can see that or not.

I would not offer for her to come home, at least not right now. But I would try to listen to her feelings and reflect them back to her. Yes, active listening.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

Sorry but I think you're crazy to suggest the OP should have to sit there and listen to her 23 year old daughter bash her life choices. We get that the girl thinks her mothers relationship is sick. She's pointed it out to mom many times. How long should mom have to sit there and listen to this same diatribe over and over again to fulfil her responsibility of having a "heart to heart" with the girl? 

If the girl wanted to discuss her fears, dreams, plans etc then yes mom would want to listen. It seems to me all the girl wants to do is try to tear down her mother and somehow blame her for her crappy situation. Mom's relationship with her husband is not the problem. It doesn't need to be solved. It's not like if mom divorced him and kicked him out the girl would suddenly be respectful, go get a job and clean up after herself at home. 

The problem is for some reason the girl believes she is somehow owed a living and should even be allowed to crap on the people providing her with that living. 

BTW...where's dad in all this?


----------



## jld

Dana does not have to listen and reflect the feeling. But I think it is the most direct way to get the relationship on a healthy path. All it takes is the humility to be willing to listen and seek to understand first.


----------



## Blondilocks

Her daughter called OP's marriage 'sick'. That doesn't call for empathy. That calls for a 'shut your mouth'. There's leadership for you.

This daughter seems jealous of her mother getting a much younger man. She's probably jealous of the unborn child, too.

Frankly, the OP is 7 months preggers and doesn't need this bs going on. If her daughter had an ounce of empathy, she wouldn't be behaving like a 5 year old brat.


----------



## jld

I think that approach would bring more alienation, Blondilocks.

Her daughter clearly is not a leader. If Dana cannot be, the relationship will just become more and more frayed.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Not necessarily. I have lead my mother for six years without her fully realizing it. She is now coming back around to me after pitching a fit about it in various ways. It took six years for her to see the limits to her power. Sometimes that tough love means saying I love you, but my truth drum beat remains the same.

I am saying the EXACT same things I said to my mother six years ago about what we need for a better relationship. She is only now willing to hear them. I have not budged my position.


----------



## jld

But you are 45. Dana's daughter is only 23. And she is not healthy yet.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

But Dana is in her 40's. She should stand her ground on no abuse in her space. She can afd acknowledging daughters feelings without moving off her truth drum.


----------



## Anonymous07

turnera said:


> She didn't.


I didn't say she gave up on her... yet. I'm just saying I hope she never does give up on her daughter. 

And you missed this part of the quote:



> I am 7 months pregnant now and honestly much more concerned about my new child and husband than my daughter's feelings.
> 
> Maybe some will say I am being horrible, but I just can't tolerate my daughter right now and until she grows up (assuming she ever does) I am tired of dealing with her.


That was why I mentioned that I hope she never gives up on her daughter. Being a parent is tough and I hope they can mend their relationship. I really think her daughter acts out in order to get attention. She wants recognition from her mom. I still think if Dana does things differently, progress can be made for them to become closer and have a healthy relationship.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Dana- You say your daughter was saying a bunch of mean and sick things about your husband, is it just his age she has a problem with or are there other areas can that be worked on too?

I think there's a way to be understanding but still have boundaries about the abusive language. Something like "I understand you don't like H or this situation but you need to use more respectful words. Let's talk about this calmly" then listen.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

This is beyond acting out to get attention. This Girl has been this way a long time, enabled a long time and the "as firm as necessary" will not be pretty for her even if Dana acknowledges her pain. Its why it pays to do more sooner than later. Dana will have to prioritize her time and unfortunately may have to let the world teach some lessons.


----------



## CarlaRose

I really wish you hadn't felt the need to defend yourself here. You know you did the right thing. I wish more parents could force themselves to be as good as you are.

You asked if you should tell your daughter she has to do what your husband tells her to do. I skipped several pages, so I don't know if you received any responses to that question (although I've no doubt you did), and I don't know if you allowed your daughter to come back or not. But if she is now or ever does live in your home again, please DO NOT allow your husband to tell her what to do. You'd only be asking for trouble. Obviously, he may have to tell her something, such as when she got onto HIS computer. He shouldn't let her run over him, but you do see how the computer thing turned out. That was his computer that she had no business using without his permission, so imagine how it will turn out if he asked her to wash the dishes or clean the bathroom or anything of that nature. And honestly, you love him. He may be the love of your life. There is nothing wrong with you marrying him. Nothing wrong with you protecting your marriage, and don't even bother with judgmental people. However, there is the undeniable fact that he is 28, and that is still somewhat immature. Secondly, if he is more mature than I give him credit for, people cannot resist flaunting their authority. Many people, and maybe even most people, have power they cannot handle. Why would you invite conflict when you already know anything he says to her and anything he asks her to do will turn into WWIII? And finally, your effort should be to promote and maintain peace in your household. Make sure your husband is not disrespected, but don't give any of them reasons for discourse because it will sour in just moments. Your daughter is not a minor of any age.


----------



## Starstarfish

So now 28 isn't mature enough either? Like it just keeps creeping up and up.

Also, sorry, telling the OPs husband he needs an intermediary to communicate with the daughter because he's not mature enough to make proper requests in his own house is beyond bogus. And it was WWIII whether OP or he asked for the daughter to do anything. It wasn't about who asked her, it was her having to do anything she doesn't like.

Why is OP getting all this flak for being the only one who needs to address the daughter's problems? Why does "you are a parent for life" only apply to the mother? Why are there no suggestions or expectations that the father be involved here?

Frankly, people's responses here are weird to me. You have 20 somethings posting in other sections for marriage advise and no one gives the same kind of advice about just tolerating cheating, disrespect, or general destruction purely because of age. There's no free pass given. Yet here its all about how active listening will somehow make this go away. If this was a male OP writing about a wife, someone would have suggested the daughter was BPD or other typical "women are crazy" anecdotes, and others would agree. No suggestions one can indeed, love some people out if self destruction and just tolerate it.


----------



## DoF

jld said:


> Please help me understand your view.
> 
> My view is that until she uses empathy to see through her daughter's eyes, without necessarily agreeing with her, effective methods have not been tried.


You are assuming Dana has not used empathy in her communications.

She has, all along...including the latest meeting.

Your approach is fine and I agree with it, but to an extent.

EVERYONE deserves a 2nd chance, but not 3rd.

OP's daughter is on chance 5 +

So your approach is past the fine line of ENABLING.


----------



## DoF

Starstarfish said:


> So now 28 isn't mature enough either? Like it just keeps creeping up and up.
> 
> Also, sorry, telling the OPs husband he needs an intermediary to communicate with the daughter because he's not mature enough to make proper requests in his own house is beyond bogus. And it was WWIII whether OP or he asked for the daughter to do anything. It wasn't about who asked her, it was her having to do anything she doesn't like.
> 
> Why is OP getting all this flak for being the only one who needs to address the daughter's problems? Why does "you are a parent for life" only apply to the mother? Why are there no suggestions or expectations that the father be involved here?
> 
> Frankly, people's responses here are weird to me. You have 20 somethings posting in other sections for marriage advise and no one gives the same kind of advice about just tolerating cheating, disrespect, or general destruction purely because of age. There's no free pass given. Yet here its all about how active listening will somehow make this go away. If this was a male OP writing about a wife, someone would have suggested the daughter was BPD or other typical "women are crazy" anecdotes, and others would agree. No suggestions one can indeed, love some people out if self destruction and just tolerate it.


I agree, and see it here all the time.

If this was a 20 something year old son........he would probably be labeled a sore loser due to no job or sense of responsibility......that deserves 0 empathy.

If anything, she is at an age where she should be spending time with and supporting HER MOTHER. For god's sakes she is pregnant, just some companionship would go a long way.

It's time for HER to show some maturity and "empathy".

Getting a JOB and taking care of herself would go a long way to put her mom's mind at ease.....the problem is, "care for her mother" is not even on this girls radar!!! And it shows.

Pathetic, I'm sorry.


----------



## jld

I disagree that she has used empathy, or not to the extent it is needed. She is protecting her own feelings.

Dana is not secure in herself. Her daughter may actually become the leader eventually, as she has a stronger spirit. I hope she can get healthy on her own, and guide her mother. And be a strong example for her younger sister.

You have to work with people where they are, DoF, not where you think they should be. 

I was a mess at 23. DH did not judge. He picked me up, carried me home, and started healing me. I do not know how things would have gone if he had not found me.

Dana's daughter has not been so lucky.


----------



## DoF

jld said:


> I disagree that she has used empathy, or not to the extent it is needed. She is protecting her own feelings.
> 
> Dana is not secure in herself. Her daughter may actually become the leader eventually, as she has a stronger spirit. I hope she can get healthy on her own, and guide her mother. And be a strong example for her younger sister.
> 
> You have to work with people where they are, DoF, not where you think they should be.
> 
> I was a mess at 23. DH did not judge. He picked me up, carried me home, and started healing me. I do not know how things would have gone if he had not found me.
> 
> Dana's daughter has not been so lucky.


Yes she yes, she picked her up and gave her a home......and her daughter used her kindness/niceness against her and even disrespected her.

The reason why your husband was able to save you, is because YOU allowed him to do so and were a good human being.

OP's daughter is NOT that kind of a person. She takes the ones that look out for her/help her and uses them.

I realize you have hope in this, I do too, but at this time....her daughter is on her own.

She took initiative to reach out to her and was nice enough to STILL CARE after all her daughter put her thru....and her daughter essentially shiited on her.

Her daughter CONSTANTLY tells her WITH ACTION that she cannot be helped. She is OPPOSITE of you JLD

Dana, did she even thank you for paying for the meal?


----------



## GTdad

jld said:


> I disagree that she has used empathy, or not to the extent it is needed. She is protecting her own feelings.
> 
> Dana is not secure in herself. Her daughter may actually become the leader eventually, as she has a stronger spirit. I hope she can get healthy on her own, and guide her mother. And be a strong example for her younger sister.
> 
> You have to work with people where they are, DoF, not where you think they should be.
> 
> I was a mess at 23. DH did not judge. He picked me up, carried me home, and started healing me. I do not know how things would have gone if he had not found me.
> 
> Dana's daughter has not been so lucky.


I don't think your expectations on the leader of any given relationship, whether in this thread or others, is wrong at all except in one very important respect: you seem to place no expectations on the non-leader in the relationship, in this case the daughter.

I'm here to tell you as a leader both at home and on the job that part of successful leadership is to place expectations on others, be it performance or simple respect. Fail to perform, particularly after I put you on notice of your failure and you continue nevertheless, and I WILL cut you loose to one degree or another, regardless of the type of relationship.

Dana's doing a good job with the cards she's been dealt.


----------



## jld

The difference is the leader, DoF. My husband was stable and believed in my potential. He did not need reassurance from me. He did not seem to need anything from me.

Dana can turn this around. Small steps will lead to bigger ones.

Or she can wait for her daughter to eventually be the leader.

I just hope someone helps her daughter like DH helped me. It will take much longer for her healing if she has to go it alone.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

It is keen insight GT Dad and well said, as long as the expectations are reasonable in nature.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

From my point of view the daughter is too caught up in her own BS right now. She needs to live away from her mom so she can stop using the excuse she's lazy and thankless because mom married a younger man.

By all means Dana should leave the door open should her daughter change her outlook. However she should continue to maintain her boundaries and the minute the discussion turns into sh!t on mom and her decisions in life...cut it off. Moms decisions are not the issue. She's getting along just fine. It's the daughters decisions that are the issue. At this point she's not going to learn anything from mom. She's going to need to figure it out elsewhere. 

I'm sure my kids don't agree with every decision I've made in life. They don't dare voice it however. Just as I would never criticize my parents decisions. It's not the place of a child to criticize their parent. If they don't like the way mom and dad do things...they're free to move out and not have to bear witness to it anymore.


----------



## jld

I think Dana's daughter is looking for a deeper relationship than that, MG.


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## turnera

No she's not. She's looking for a handout. On her terms. And for her mom to not be married or pregnant.


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## jld

She would not keep sharing her deepest feelings if she were not looking for a relationship.


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## turnera

Deepest feelings? You mean hatred, disgust? Those aren't given to get something back. They're given to hurt someone.

jld, I've known people like this. They USE people. They hurt people on purpose, just because they can. They think people who keep giving them stuff are chumps and stupid. Even their own parents. Not everyone is as sweet and innocent as you'd like to pretend.

If she hadn't been kicked out of multiple homes and apartments and blown every chance she's been given, even AFTER she's agreed not to, I'd be agreeing with you. I get the mother/daughter thing. I'm my DD24's best friend. But this girl has been like this her whole life, OP used to worry about her as a child because she was so mean to people and un-empathetic. That's just who she is.


----------



## Anonymous07

Starstarfish said:


> Why is OP getting all this flak for being the only one who needs to address the daughter's problems? Why does "you are a parent for life" only apply to the mother? Why are there no suggestions or expectations that the father be involved here?
> 
> Frankly, people's responses here are weird to me. You have 20 somethings posting in other sections for marriage advise and no one gives the same kind of advice about just tolerating cheating, disrespect, or general destruction purely because of age. There's no free pass given. Yet here its all about how active listening will somehow make this go away. If this was a male OP writing about a wife, someone would have suggested the daughter was BPD or other typical "women are crazy" anecdotes, and others would agree. No suggestions one can indeed, love some people out if self destruction and just tolerate it.


Dana is the one who tricked her daughter and dropped her off at a homeless shelter. She is the one who posted here on TAM, so we are addressing her on how to move forward from that mistake. Sure it would be nice if the dad could be more involved and do x, y, and z, but her ex husband is not posting on TAM, so we can't address him and the same goes for her daughter. I don't think anyone has made excuses for her daughter's behavior. Everyone knows she has acted poorly and really should grow up, but there are differing beliefs on how that should be accomplished. Tough love works on some(if done correctly - clear rules/consequences), but not others. Some need extra love and care, not be pushed out to go it alone. 

I know people just like Dana's daughter who are my age(mid-twenties). I know they're looking for attention and want a better relationship with their family, but don't know how to get there. One of them, as an example, is from my jr high school and we kept in touch through facebook. Her mom recently remarried and now has 2 young children. She feels abandoned and forgotten, and will act out/revert to childlike tendencies to get her mom's attention(hard to watch online). Although the big difference here is that they have gone about things differently and started family counseling lately. It has been so helpful for all of them, as they're learning to communicate and become a more united family. She feels heard by her mom and has made strides in becoming a more independent adult, since she feels safe and can work on those issues. 

I can see Dana's daughter doing similar if things can change. I wouldn't just shove her aside when she's really needing to have extra mothering, not be left alone to figure it all out by herself.


----------



## turnera

Anonymous07 said:


> She feels abandoned and forgotten,


She wasn't abandoned and forgotten when she was invited to her mom's home and then proceeded to make life miserable for everyone. The ONLY reason she is not now living there is because of what SHE did. 

Do you truly believe that if OP had just loved her daughter more, given her 25 MORE opportunities to lie, not get a job as promised, eat all the food, harass the other people living there, throw parties with her mom's stuff, she would have just come out of it? You are naive.

You say you know girls like her. Well, I do too. USERS. Users LOVE it when you feel guilty and give them stuff over and over and over - you become their A#1 resource. And they LAUGH at you for doing so.

Every single time her daughter has been around her she has been nasty, mean, spiteful. You don't 'love' that out of a person.

OP has offered to have a relationship. What was her daughter's response? To tell her to F off and get rid of her sick disgusting husband (and baby) before she'd even CONSIDER having a relationship with her mom.


----------



## jld

Don't forget that we have not heard from the daughter, Turnera.


----------



## turnera

You think OP is lying about the cuss words?


----------



## jld

I think we are not getting the whole picture.


----------



## Miss Independent

turnera said:


> Every single time her daughter has been around her she has been nasty, mean, spiteful.



Every single time??? How do you know that? Anyway that's an overstatement.


----------



## Miss Independent

turnera said:


> You think OP is lying about the cuss words?



No, but there are two sides to every stories. For instance, I had a fall out with my mother, and her story is completely different than mine. So...


----------



## jld

Some humility on both sides could repair this relationship. I think Dana could be the leader and go first.


----------



## Anonymous07

turnera said:


> Do you truly believe that if OP had just loved her daughter more, given her 25 MORE opportunities to lie, not get a job as promised, eat all the food, harass the other people living there, throw parties with her mom's stuff, she would have just come out of it? You are naive.
> 
> You say you know girls like her. Well, I do too. USERS. Users LOVE it when you feel guilty and give them stuff over and over and over - you become their A#1 resource. And they LAUGH at you for doing so.
> 
> Every single time her daughter has been around her she has been nasty, mean, spiteful. You don't 'love' that out of a person.
> 
> OP has offered to have a relationship. What was her daughter's response? To tell her to F off and get rid of her sick disgusting husband (and baby) before she'd even CONSIDER having a relationship with her mom.


No, love alone can't do it, but that in addition to clear rules/expectation and consequences can really turn things around. A listening ear can make a huge difference. I think it was all handled poorly and I feel bad for all involved. 

You really don't know her daughter and can't assume she is some horrible person. Most people act out because they are looking for some way to get attention, love, or something else they view they are missing. There is a lot of psychology behind that. 

Honestly, I'd be pissed at Dana too with how she handled things. I don't blame her daughter for being mad. I don't excuse her rude/bad behavior, but she has a right to her feelings at the same time.


----------



## DoF

turnera said:


> jld, I've known people like this. They USE people. They hurt people on purpose, just because they can. They think people who keep giving them stuff are chumps and stupid. Even their own parents. Not everyone is as sweet and innocent as you'd like to pretend.


Correct, in my experience....I find most people to be like above.

It's safe to assume they are NOT and let them prove you wrong. VS assuming innocence and be proven wrong.


----------



## DoF

I'm not exactly sure how Anonymous07 and jld are coming to these conclusions. Dane has taken the leader role # of times.....and initiative to fix the relationship.......you 2 are asking for some more of the same. At what point will "Dana's effort" be enough in your book?

I don't believe in none 50/50 relationships. I'm sorry, it takes 2 to tango. Dana is dancing.....her daughter is NOT. Heck she is turning off the music!!!

And I have DEEP doubts about this opinion standing IF it was a SON not a daughter.

I'm sorry but Dana has done a good job IMO. And lets not forget she is pregnant and dealing with A LOT herself.


----------



## jld

Following through with sincere active listening could change their dynamic.


----------



## Blondilocks

Not every relationship requires a leader. Some people don't want to be leaders and some don't want to be led. Many relationships work just fine with both people carrying their own weight.

I'm sorry, but people in their twenties who are behaving childishly because mom has a new kid just need to grow the hell up. Childhood can't last forever.


----------



## DoF

jld said:


> Following through with sincere active listening could change their dynamic.


I really REALLY like people like you. The relentless pursuit of change and hope in the face of complete negligence and offensiveness.

I think it takes a special kind to do that (I mean this in a good way).

Unfortunately, this world is FULL of people that will swallow a person like you up, spit you up and step on top of you like an ant.

I'm sorry, but I have seen this with many people and myself included.


----------



## karole

There are some people in this world that you just can't help - some don't want you help even if you could. They don't see anything wrong with the way they are - it's always everyone else's problem or everyone else's fault. So, you can't fix everyone. I hope the OP and her daughter can somehow work things out between them. But, until her daughter gets a little humility and starts to accept some responsibility for own misfortunes, I don't see that happening - even if her mother talks til she's blue in the face and listens til her ears bleed.


----------



## jld

I have experienced it, DoF. But I just have to keep speaking my truth. I think empathy can bring healing to the world.

And thank you for the kind words.


----------



## Anonymous07

jld said:


> I think empathy can bring healing to the world.


:iagree:

I worked at an inner city elementary school while I was in college and there were many troubled kids from broken homes or other tough situations. It wasn't the strict rules or hard discipline that helped to "straighten them out", it was listening and understanding them. It was amazing to watch the "trouble makers" turn around their behavior as they began to trust and feel comfortable. Just sitting there and listening to some of the kids, not even saying a word, made such an impact.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

It takes a blend and knowing when to be soft or hard.


----------



## Basic"FairyDust"Love

All this over a man that is probably going to leave you anyway for someone younger when you reach 50.


----------



## Anonymous07

Blossom Leigh said:


> It takes a blend and knowing when to be soft or hard.


I would say it takes more 'softness' than being hard. The world is hard, so family should be the safe haven/soft place to land. 

The kids I worked with had such a tough exterior, their walls up, but were completely different kids once they felt comfortable. One kid in particular was bounced around foster homes because no one could take his behavior. He was rude, a "Mr. tough guy" and he was in the principals office all of the time for acting out. For the first couple months when I pulled him out of class to help him catch up in his studies, I would just sit and listen to him before we started on the work. I never said a word back to him as he opened up to me. Within several months, he was a different kid. I won't lie, he was a tough kid to deal with, but he really is a sweet kid.


----------



## john117

Welllll...

As a reigning superDad I can offer a few pieces of wisdom. I know a thing or 2x10E12 about mothers having awful relationships with their daughters. Been there, etc.

I will further confess I have not read the entire thread, just the first and last couple pages.

The major bummer is that we do not understand the daughter's motive. It could be:

- she's a bad person
- jealous of her mom
- doing her bio dad's bidding
- in need of emotional help 
- genuine mental health issues

Under no circumstances I personally would drive my daughter to a homeless center. No matter how bad. They did not ask to be born. She may be an adult but if I treated her like krap... How she's behaving now is a reflection of the role models she had a decade earlier. None of this "she's an adult" songs...

Most of what needed to be done should have been done years earlier. Now one can offer humility and strong boundaries and tell her they need to work together to repair the relationship.

For all I know the girl may have never had a childhood. My daughters almost didn't thanks to psycho mom. They owe this much to each other.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Anonymous07 said:


> I would say it takes more 'softness' than being hard. The world is hard, so family should be the safe haven/soft place to land.
> 
> The kids I worked with had such a tough exterior, their walls up, but were completely different kids once they felt comfortable. One kid in particular was bounced around foster homes because no one could take his behavior. He was rude, a "Mr. tough guy" and he was in the principals office all of the time for acting out. For the first couple months when I pulled him out of class to help him catch up in his studies, I would just sit and listen to him before we started on the work. I never said a word back to him as he opened up to me. Within several months, he was a different kid. I won't lie, he was a tough kid to deal with, but he really is a sweet kid.



I agree. I am an advocate for "as soft as possible, but as firm as necessary."

The trick is knowing which one and when. 

I also like "trust they'll respond, be ready to correct, but not one more than the other."

And.. all of it rooted in love FOR the person.


----------



## jld

I think we need to get away from the idea of correcting, and closer to the idea of seeking to understand.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I think we need to get away from the idea of correcting, and closer to the idea of seeking to understand.



We can't. It doesn't serve the daughter to leave her in the dark about her behavior. Correction and understanding can happen simultaneously, but this girl has to know her behavior is not ok.


----------



## jld

I think her behavior will improve as her heart is healed.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I agree it can, but it isn't always that tidy.


----------



## jld

Well, there are no promises. But I think the daughter is willing to try, and I would like to see that opportunity grasped.


----------



## Starstarfish

What indicates to you the daughter is willing to try? What defines trying?

It just seems like this topic is encouraging all kinds of run over emotions from people about bad childhoods, psycho moms, and a "rainbow connection" kind of feeling about life and how to fix people. 

Also, if all people who behave badly can't help it and are only products of their upbringing, why do we put people in jail? Should we just love them out of it? Have people here called their mother lately to blame her for their relationship problems because of the poor example she obviously set? Or indeed, some choices not just mindless reproductions of your upbringing?


----------



## jld

To me, the fact that she was willing to go deep with her feelings when she was talking to her mother at the diner indicates she does want a more authentic relationship with her than just using her for money. I am a mother myself and did not have my own children just to lose them one day, I guess. Certainly not because of a lack of humility on my part.

I may lose one of my children to cancer. I am not willing to lose any of them because of a lack of humility on my part.

I think many people who are in jail would not have to have been there if there had been early intervention programs. But society is stuck in a blame the victim mindset. People go right to judgment instead of seeking to understand.

Older people are often not willing to hear that anything they did in their youth was less than perfect for their children. That is what I have seen anyway. But when a parent can be humble, a relationship can be deepened with much more emotional satisfaction on each side.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Humility in every party goes a long way in healing relationships.


----------



## DanaS

Starstarfish said:


> What indicates to you the daughter is willing to try? What defines trying?
> 
> It just seems like this topic is encouraging all kinds of run over emotions from people about bad childhoods, psycho moms, and a "rainbow connection" kind of feeling about life and how to fix people.
> 
> Also, if all people who behave badly can't help it and are only products of their upbringing, why do we put people in jail? Should we just love them out of it? Have people here called their mother lately to blame her for their relationship problems because of the poor example she obviously set? Or indeed, some choices not just mindless reproductions of your upbringing?


I really agree with this. I mean, do you think Hitler and Stalin were deep down nice people, or at the very least had it in them to become nice caring loving people if only people showed them enough "empathy"? 

Everyone keeps saying I need to offer more empathy/sympathy to my daughter, but after she has acted I just don't feel like I have it in me. I'm not really one for being all touchy-feely and the like. As far as I am concerned, after thinking it all over unless she contacts me, I'm done. I'm not going to bother texting/calling her anymore, she has her life and if she wants to run it into the ground it's her choice. As I alluded to earlier, if I am going to be honest I am more concerned with raising my new child, and I have to accept the possibility my daughter is a lost cause. I have bigger issues to worry about right now.


----------



## alphaomega

Lots of posts on active listening.

That sometimes on,y works in the workplace, where both sides took the same expensive consultant group course and it's an unwritten rule that when your disagreeing at work, you don't start swearing and start saing you hate each other.

Unfortunately, listening is only an input. If the other side doesn't agree with the output, it's a lot harder.

As an Aside, I think we go to far in society now with the "active listening..use coaching skills" courses that a lot of companies pay highly for because they think it's going to be a utopian paradigm shift in the workplace.

I "failed" my mandated course they made me take at work. Lol. Seriously. They gave us a scenario where a colleague is being belligerent in a meeting, being highly disruptive, and wasting everyone's time. They asked me what I would do. I told them I would politely ask them to please leave the meeting, and if it continuously happens again, your off the team.

Well, holy shat! That was the wrong response. Apparently, I was supposed to take them aside, coach them, find out why they always sidetrack the meeting, find out if theres a deeper reason to the behavior...maybe some pent up resentment with home life, etc.etc. Asking them to leave the meeting in front of everyone is too insensitive. Blah blah.

My response to that was that I wasn't a phychologist. I'm not here to hand hold people into dealing with unresolved childhood issues. I'm here to perform a task. Should I spend countless hours pretending to be Carl Jung, or use that time moving product?

Again, holy crap. Now I'm slated to take courses on compassion and sympathy.

shats getting out of hand in the world. What ever happened to owning your junk.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DanaS said:


> As I alluded to earlier, if I am going to be honest I am more concerned with raising my new child, and I have to accept the possibility my daughter is a lost cause. I have bigger issues to worry about right now.


Sensing this from you, that your new child and new life is more important, could be hurting the situation. Each child should be just as loved and equal as the other. If she feels replaced, thrown away, then it's just confirming her fears that she has no place in your new life and that you care more about your new husband and child than her. 

When you saw her at the diner, did you offer family counseling? I think even if you just go yourself it might help you deal with your blended family better.


----------



## DanaS

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Sensing this from you, that your new child and new life is more important, could be hurting the situation. Each child should be just as loved and equal as the other. If she feels replaced, thrown away, then it's just confirming her fears that she has no place in your new life and that you care more about your new husband and child than her.
> 
> When you saw her at the diner, did you offer family counseling? I think even if you just go yourself it might help you deal with your blended family better.


But what if I don't want her to have a place in my "new life"? Not while she is acting like this.

As for the idea of family counseling, no, for one she would never go for it, and two, I just feel very uneasy with the idea of counseling. Sitting there going on to a stranger about your problems just really bothers me. I think at this point the best thing to do is let her do her thing and I'll do mine.


----------



## richie33

For your children you exhaust all options before you cut them out your life.


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## karole

Has "your life and your happiness" always taken precedent over your daughter's? If so, that may explain a lot of her problems.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DanaS said:


> I really agree with this. I mean, do you think Hitler and Stalin were deep down nice people, or at the very least had it in them to become nice caring loving people if only people showed them enough "empathy"?
> 
> Everyone keeps saying I need to offer more empathy/sympathy to my daughter, but after she has acted I just don't feel like I have it in me. I'm not really one for being all touchy-feely and the like. As far as I am concerned, after thinking it all over unless she contacts me, I'm done. I'm not going to bother texting/calling her anymore, she has her life and if she wants to run it into the ground it's her choice. As I alluded to earlier, if I am going to be honest I am more concerned with raising my new child, and I have to accept the possibility my daughter is a lost cause. I have bigger issues to worry about right now.


In all fairness to Dana, she DOES need to prioritize the needs of an infant and a defiant 23 year old daughter differently. She can have equal love, but not equal priority. Right now, with the 23 yr old's behavior she would dominate her mother's time away from the infant and the one on the way in several different ways. This older daughter must stand on her own two feet. The dynamics of the two are totally different. One is totally dependent without fault, the other should be totally independent by now. So I applaud her for seeing the necessity to prioritize.

My only encouragement for now is to not label her as a lost cause. But to consider that with additional tools and skills a bridge could be built between the two of you and to look for that opportunity later. Just consider it paused for now and that is ok. I feel the tools the daughter needs will end up coming from the school of hard knocks, if she survives them. So, I feel this situation is going to take time passing before another opportunity reveals itself. Just pause work with her until a later time and maybe choose what you want to see come from that and how. I do encourage counsel for yourself and even the book Boundaries with Kids by Townsend, will shed good light here. 

You are right... there are _some_ folks who need a hard correction before humility grows to the degree needed to make a change. This daughter hasn't felt it yet, even with the event that led to this thread. Her way of speech needs to be shut down the next time she speaks to you. She can express her hurts, but not by adding hurt to you on top of them. Same for you Mama, when you express your hurts, don't add hurts on top of them. When the opportunity arises ask her to choose a better way of expressing her concerns otherwise conversation is over. For now... focus on your babies.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DanaS said:


> But what if I don't want her to have a place in my "new life"? Not while she is acting like this.
> 
> As for the idea of family counseling, no, for one she would never go for it, and two, I just feel very uneasy with the idea of counseling. Sitting there going on to a stranger about your problems just really bothers me. I think at this point the best thing to do is let her do her thing and I'll do mine.


You're her Mother. I know that the excitement of a young, new husband and child is probably feeling like a fresh start but you don't just throw away your children. She's a part of your life forever, even when she acts badly. At 23, being immature and lippy when faced with this situation is not uncommon. She's not a lost cause but treating her like she is will just make it worse.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I echo the sentiment that cutting her out is not a long term solution. Pausing it until you have better solutions is.


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## jld

If you are not able to see past her actions, into her heart . . . I hope she will find a substitute mother who can. She desperately needs one.


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## karole

How many times have you been married OP? How long were you divorced before you met your current husband and remarried?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> If you are not able to see past her actions, into her heart . . . I hope she will find a substitute mother who can. She desperately needs one.


I agree she needs someone... just with her burning so many bridges.. her pickings are slimming...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Maybe she can get to her Dad. I agree, she does need some kind of family.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I agree she needs someone... just with her burning so many bridges.. her pickings are slimming...


There are some very kind-hearted, mature women out there who guide younger women very well. I am hoping that Dana's daughter is going to meet one of them soon. 

She really needs love, compassion and empathy from a mature role model. I think when she feels truly loved, the discipline will take care of itself.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I think it will take care of some of the discipline, but not all of it.


----------



## karole

I'm curious to know how far down on the totem pole the Op has placed her daughter throughout the daughter's life.


----------



## DanaS

jld said:


> There are some very kind-hearted, mature women out there who guide younger women very well. I am hoping that Dana's daughter is going to meet one of them soon.
> 
> She really needs love, compassion and empathy from a mature role model. I think when she feels truly loved, the discipline will take care of itself.


Sounds great, unfortunately I don't see many sticking around once my daughter starts going.


----------



## jld

There are some very strong, loving mother substitutes out there. Maybe not as many as are needed, unfortunately.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DanaS said:


> Sounds great, unfortunately I don't see many sticking around once my daughter starts going.


What does she keep doing that is driving so many people away to disown her?


----------



## DanaS

Blossom Leigh said:


> What does she keep doing that is driving so many people away to disown her?


She just is mean, condescending, treats others as if they are beneath her, throws parties etc. 

Any woman that thinks she can get through to my daughter is welcome to try. I, however, am through dealing with this!


----------



## DoF

jld said:


> There are some very kind-hearted, mature women out there who guide younger women very well. I am hoping that Dana's daughter is going to meet one of them soon.


so she can take advantage of THEM? 



jld said:


> She really needs love, compassion and empathy from a mature role model. I think when she feels truly loved, the discipline will take care of itself.


Love is defined by ACTION.

Her mother (Dana) has shown her love with action.....and she returned 0 love with disrespect and refused to get a job.

Relationships are NOT a one way street. You get love when you GIVE love.

Her daughter has 0 love to offer to Dana.....or ANYONE else.

She is looking for more charity as things stand.

Now, do they both love eachother? I'm sure.


----------



## Blondilocks

I "failed" my mandated course they made me take at work. Lol. Seriously. They gave us a scenario where a *colleague* is being belligerent in a meeting, being highly disruptive, and wasting everyone's time. They asked me what I would do. I told them I would politely ask them to please leave the meeting, and if it continuously happens again, your off the team."

This is the operative word. My master's is in Human Resources - training & development. As a colleague, you have no responsibility & more importantly, no *authority* to coach this individual. What this is, is a sharing of responsibility by the managers. Let the team supervise each other aka abdicating responsibility. Hogwash.

In the business world (as in life, also), there are only two motivators - reward & punishment. As much as the consultants (who are doing what they are doing because they don't know how to do anything) would love to brainwash people into thinking they can actually motivate others the truth is: you can't. One can provide the time, space, encouragement & tools but if a person does not want to do it - they won't. Period.

Alpha, you have to learn to play their game if you want out of the penalty box i.e. taking more soft courses.

Dana can't motivate her daughter to behave like a decent human being because her daughter doesn't want to.


----------



## DoF

DanaS said:


> She just is mean, condescending, treats others as if they are beneath her, throws parties etc.
> 
> Any woman that thinks she can get through to my daughter is welcome to try. I, however, am through dealing with this!


Exactly


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DanaS said:


> She just is mean, condescending, treats others as if they are beneath her, throws parties etc.
> 
> Any woman that thinks she can get through to my daughter is welcome to try. I, however, am through dealing with this!


Throws parties in spaces she does not own

Disrespects people verbally and with action

Uses cruelty to push her weight around and humiliate people?

Is that accurate?


----------



## jld

She is only 23. There is hope.

She needs someone to listen to her heart and acknowledge her feelings. What she feels listened to and understood, I think she will be open to listening to the other person.

Dana's mistake was in not being able to hear her daughter's heart without becoming defensive. Another woman would be able to be more objective and not take the behavior of Dana's daughter personally. 

Someone needs to be able to look past this girl's actions and see the emotions underlying them. That kind of understanding could build trust with the daughter. Where there is trust, there is influence.


----------



## DanaS

DoF said:


> so she can take advantage of THEM?
> 
> 
> 
> Love is defined by ACTION.
> 
> Her mother (Dana) has shown her love with action.....and she returned 0 love with disrespect and refused to get a job.
> 
> Relationships are NOT a one way street. You get love when you GIVE love.
> 
> Her daughter has 0 love to offer to Dana.....or ANYONE else.
> 
> She is looking for more charity as things stand.


Couldn't have said it better myself. I've done my part, she refuses to listen and just acts as she always has. I think just continually showing more "empathy" and any kind of "counseling" will just be a waste of time and money; I guarantee it.


----------



## DanaS

Blossom Leigh said:


> Throws parties in spaces she does not own
> 
> Disrespects people verbally and with action
> 
> Uses cruelty to push her weight around and humiliate people?
> 
> Is that accurate?


That, and more, believe me. I wouldn't be surprised if she suffers from extreme narcissism and hyper entitlement.



jld said:


> She is only 23. There is hope.
> 
> She needs someone to listen to her heart and acknowledge her feelings. What she feels listened to and understood, I think she will be open to listening to the other person.
> 
> Dana's mistake was in not being able to hear her daughter's heart without becoming defensive. Another woman would be able to be more objective and not take the behavior of Dana's daughter personally.
> 
> Someone needs to be able to look past this girl's actions and see the emotions underlying them. That kind of understanding could build trust with the daughter. Where there is trust, there is influence.


jid, no offense but you sound like a broken record. I'm telling you, NONE if that will end up doing jack **** with my daughter, she doesn't respond to all hugs and kisses and heart to heart talks. In fact, in the past when I have it just makes her see me as weak and she'll take advantage.

She's also had a number of speeding tickets. So much so her car insurance went up considerably and she had to sell her car and use public transit.


----------



## Blondilocks

jld means well. She'll be the first to admit that active listening isn't doing jack **** to help her get her husband to spend more time with her. He just patches up his ears & lets her whine, rant & throw tantrums and continues to do exactly as he pleases. But, it does make jld feel better.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DanaS said:


> Couldn't have said it better myself. I've done my part, she refuses to listen and just acts as she always has. I think just continually showing more "empathy" and any kind of "counseling" will just be a waste of time and money; I guarantee it.


Counselling for her could help a lot. Even if you don't believe in it. She could have some mental issues behind her acting out that could be treated, or at least managed better. That would make it even more important to have a stable person in her life. 

You do speak very negatively about her and as hard as you'd try not to, she's going to sense it. I think you might be _personally _hurt and offended by her words about your marriage and husband and are acting out because of them. Maybe even see her as a reminder of your past and age which contrasts with your new life.


----------



## DanaS

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Counselling for her could help a lot. Even if you don't believe in it. She could have some mental issues behind her acting out that could be treated, or at least managed better. That would make it even more important to have a stable person in her life.
> 
> You do speak very negatively about her and as hard as you'd try not to, she's going to sense it. *I think you might be personally hurt and offended by her words about your marriage and husband and are acting out because of them.* Maybe even see her as a reminder of your past and age which contrasts with your new life.


Well of course I am hurt and offended by her words and actions, how am I supposed to feel? Getting angry/upset is a normal reaction to what my daughter does. 

As for counseling, if she wants it she can stop being lazy and get a job! Personally I don't put much stock in the "mental health" field. I think most people are simply lazy and yet everyone that doesn't want to work or gets angry a lot simply has some mental health issues. I don't buy it.


----------



## jld

Blondilocks said:


> jld means well. She'll be the first to admit that active listening isn't doing jack **** to help her get her husband to spend more time with her. He just patches up his ears & lets her whine, rant & throw tantrums and continues to do exactly as he pleases. But, it does make jld feel better.




He _is _being more attentive. I think he finally decided it was important enough to change.

I do not do active listening nearly as much with him as he does it with me. And yes, it does make me feel better when he does it. It takes a long time for what I say to get through to him, though. I do not have much leverage.


----------



## jld

Dana, do you want to role play active listening? 

You be your daughter, and I will be you. Start the conversation the way your daughter would.


----------



## jld

I think that would crush her, Lila.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DanaS said:


> Well of course I am hurt and offended by her words and actions? How am I supposed to feel? Getting angry/upset is a normal reaction to what my daughter does.
> 
> As for counseling, if she wants it she can stop being lazy and get a job! Personally I don't put much stock in the "mental health" field. I think most people are simply lazy and yet everyone that doesn't want to work or gets angry a lot simply has some mental health issues. I don't buy it.


But how can you expect her to act maturely when you are not?
Who cares if she thinks you being with a man her age is gross? Most kids would. It's normal and you should have accepted that when you chose this relationship.

Your daughter clearly needs help, it doesn't matter how much stock you put into the mental health system. Maybe if she was helped before now she would be in a better place. You keep just pushing her away instead of dealing with your and her issues.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

From the description she does sound potentially NPD to me. If she uses weakness to grab power... that's a major red flag of NPD.

She may very well have an impulsiveness disorder as well as under developed empathy.


----------



## Blondilocks

" I do not have much* leverage*."

It's all in the knees, my dear.


----------



## Anonymous07

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> But how can you expect her to act maturely when you are not?
> Who cares if she thinks you being with a man her age is gross? Most kids would. It's normal and you should have accepted that when you chose this relationship.
> 
> Your daughter clearly needs help, it doesn't matter how much stock you put into the mental health system. Maybe if she was helped before now she would be in a better place. You keep just pushing her away instead of dealing with your and her issues.


:iagree:

I think counseling would be good for all involved. Maybe then you can learn tools for how to raise this next child in a way where you won't repeat this situation down the road.


----------



## jld

Blondilocks said:


> " I do not have much* leverage*."
> 
> It's all in the knees, my dear.


. But if I am doing that anyway, there is not much left to manipulate with. And I am not a natural manipulator.

And we are thread jacking.


----------



## jld

Lila said:


> I agree, but the truth sometimes hurts. However, the benefits of honesty is that one's expectations can be readjusted. Her daughter would be forced to come to terms with the situation - Mom wants a do over.


Mom does not want a do over. Mom wants to be done.

It could help the daughter cut ties and move on, though.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Blossom Leigh said:


> From the description she does sound potentially NPD to me. If she uses weakness to grab power... that's a major red flag of NPD.
> 
> She may very well have an impulsiveness disorder as well as under developed empathy.


Could be as "simple" as untreated bi-polar or depression as well, I've seen both act pretty self centred. Or just home and family life problems that has long needed therapy to walk her through it. Getting one side of the story, and one that seems pretty biased, doesn't give anyone a lot to go on.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Without tapping into the mental health field they will never know.

That's playing to lose by not pursuing answers to destructive behavior.


----------



## DanaS

Anonymous07 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I think counseling would be good for all involved. Maybe then you can learn tools for how to raise this next child in a way where you won't repeat this situation down the road.


Please, no more talk about counseling! The whole thing just bothers me. 

With my new husband I already have the tools needed for my next child. One being not some extreme narcissists genes, and a father that actually is involved and acts like a good father should.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DanaS said:


> The whole thing just bothers me.


Why


----------



## DanaS

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Could be as "simple" as untreated bi-polar or depression as well, I've seen both act pretty self centred. Or just home and family life problems that has long needed therapy to walk her through it. Getting one side of the story, and one that seems pretty biased, doesn't give anyone a lot to go on.


Well then you're more than welcome to shell out the doh and take her if you want. I'm not going anywhere near a therapist or counselor, to me, therapy is a mega-industry, and therapists make lots of money exploiting our pains and self-doubts. I also feel they use the power of suggestion to make sure they keep the patient. They are a business and need repeat customers; I just don't trust them.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DanaS said:


> Please, no more talk about counseling! The whole thing just bothers me.
> 
> With my new husband I already have the tools needed for my next child. One being not some extreme narcissists genes, and a father that actually is involved and acts like a good father should.


There's a lot more to raising a kid than having a good spouse.
You have to learn your own parenting skills too.

I'm still curious what all she said about your H. Was there more than just his age? You seem very hurt by it, more than just your kid thinking it's gross. Either your own fears about it are causing you to lash out at her or there is more going on IMO

If it is just the age thing, you'll have to deal with your age difference with this one too. Imagine being at Christmas concerts where people think you are your husband's Mother, your child's Grandmother... You have to find some way to get over it when people don't agree.


----------



## Anonymous07

DanaS said:


> Please, no more talk about counseling! The whole thing just bothers me.
> 
> With my new husband I already have the tools needed for my next child. One being not some extreme narcissists genes, and a father that actually is involved and acts like a good father should.


So what will you do differently next time if your new daughter rebels and acts similar to your older daughter?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I'm not going anywhere near a mechanic, to me, car repair is a mega-industry, and mechanics make lots of money exploiting our broken cars. I also feel they use the their knowledge to make sure they keep the driver coming for repairs. They are a business and need repeat customers; I just don't trust them, so I will drive my car til the wheels fall off on their own.

Dana... how much logic would there be if you said the same of mechanics... see above...


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Anonymous07 said:


> So what will you do differently next time if your new daughter rebels and acts similar to your older daughter?


or has some mental health issues that require therapy or medical care? Advanced maternal age can raise the risk of mental health issues


----------



## DanaS

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> There's a lot more to raising a kid than having a good spouse.
> You have to learn your own parenting skills too.
> 
> *I'm still curious what all she said about your H. Was there more than just his age? You seem very hurt by it, more than just your kid thinking it's gross. Either your own fears about it are causing you to lash out at her or there is more going on IMO*
> 
> If it is just the age thing, you'll have to deal with your age difference with this one too. Imagine being at Christmas concerts where people think you are your husband's Mother, your child's Grandmother... You have to find some way to get over it when people don't agree.


No, she just has always said those kinds of things about him and me too. Of course I am hurt by it, I'd be just as hurt if I were married to a same-age man and she started talking bad about him for whatever reason. 

I think people are looking WAY to much into this. Why does it matter why she feels the way she does when she acts so horribly? I guess Mussolini and his wife should've been just given therapy after they were caught and asked about their feelings. Please....



Blossom Leigh said:


> I'm not going anywhere near a mechanic, to me, car repair is a mega-industry, and mechanics make lots of money exploiting our broken cars. I also feel they use the their knowledge to make sure they keep the driver coming for repairs. They are a business and need repeat customers; I just don't trust them, so I will drive my car til the wheels fall off on their own.
> 
> Dana... how much logic would there be if you said the same of mechanics... see above...


At least your car doesn't talk back to you and say very mean, cruel and hurtful things. And when you do have to take it in it's easy to find the fault and fix it, nor does the car fight back while trying to be fixed.



Anonymous07 said:


> So what will you do differently next time if your new daughter rebels and acts similar to your older daughter?


I am praying she won't, but at least new daughter won't have flawed genetics and will grow up in a loving and stable home.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> or has some mental health issues that require therapy or medical care? Advanced maternal age can raise the risk of mental health issues


Well, if, god forbid she had something like Autism or Down Syndrome of course I would see help, but at least with those you know for the most part what you're dealing with.


----------



## TiggyBlue

So all her issues are down to flawed genetics (from her father)?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

What did she say about you prior to marrying this guy?


Dana.... why would you stick your head in the sand about possible mental health issues with your daughter outside of autism or downs... That's like leaving your arrows to your bow locked in the basement as you are headed into battle. 


I've got an Expedition right now that would disagree with you... lol She is giving me fits right now with coils...


----------



## DanaS

TiggyBlue said:


> So all her issues are down to flawed genetics (from her father)?


Not all, but considering how alike they act I guarantee it's a big problem.


----------



## DanaS

Blossom Leigh said:


> What did she say about you prior to marrying this guy?
> 
> 
> Dana.... why would you stick your head in the sand about possible mental health issues with your daughter outside of autism or downs... That's like leaving your arrows to your bow locked in the basement as you are headed into battle.
> 
> 
> I've got an Expedition right now that would disagree with you... lol She is giving me fits right now with coils...


She just said the same things she always has, nothing new.

Anyway, maybe she does have mental issues, namely lazyitis. What do you want me to do, drag her kicking and screaming into the therapists office? 

I just don't want to have anything more to do with her right now. I know I'm not getting a mother of the year award but that's how I feel.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Was there problems between you and your daughter before getting with and marrying your husband?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

No, drag yourself there....


----------



## Blossom Leigh

TiggyBlue said:


> Was there problems between you and your daughter before getting with and marrying your husband?


Yes, there were issues described all the way back to 6 years of age.


----------



## Anonymous07

You can't keep putting the blame on everything and everyone else for how your daughter acts. You had a part in it. At some point, you need to acknowledge that and learn from it. 

Again, I'll ask: What will you do differently next time if/when your daughter rebels or acts similar to your older daughter?


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DanaS said:


> She just said the same things she always has, nothing new.
> 
> Anyway, maybe she does have mental issues, namely lazyitis. What do you want me to do, drag her kicking and screaming into the therapists office?
> 
> I just don't want to have anything more to do with her right now. I know I'm not getting a mother of the year award but that's how I feel.


First off- accepting mental illness as a real thing and not just being "lazy". There is more than just DS or Autism. Talk to your Dr about the risks and what to look out for, when to get help, etc. Even if you don't want your oldest DD anymore this will still help you in the future. 

With your 23 year old- 
She likely needed help long before now, when she was younger was the time to drag her to a Dr. Now it gets tricky because you brushed it off for so long. 
You can still suggest it, admit your own fault in this mess and tell her you will be going to deal with your end of the issues and the offer is open for her to as well. 
Keep in mind that if she does have untreated MI then the chances of her just up and fixing herself gets even worse. This is on you too. Are you willing to let her go knowing you didn't do everything you could to help?

Being a parent isn't always fun and easy.


----------



## DoF

Anonymous07 said:


> You can't keep putting the blame on everything and everyone else for how your daughter acts.


I'm sorry but how is she to blame for her daughter being a crappy person.

Her daughter is an ADULT, for over 8 years now......

Regardless what she might do different, her daughter is NOT the kind of person that gives a shiit.

I've seen this with many families, kids grown up in a great household turned into complete wrecks.

WHO or HOW the person is, is a ROLL OF A DICE.

"Apple doesn't fall far from a tree" only applies SO much to parents.


----------



## DoF

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> First off- accepting mental illness as a real thing and not just being "lazy". There is more than just DS or Autism. Talk to your Dr about the risks and what to look out for, when to get help, etc. Even if you don't want your oldest DD anymore this will still help you in the future.
> 
> With your 23 year old-
> She likely needed help long before now, when she was younger was the time to drag her to a Dr. Now it gets tricky because you brushed it off for so long.
> You can still suggest it, admit your own fault in this mess and tell her you will be going to deal with your end of the issues and the offer is open for her to as well.
> Keep in mind that if she does have untreated MI then the chances of her just up and fixing herself gets even worse. This is on you too. Are you willing to let her go knowing you didn't do everything you could to help?
> 
> Being a parent isn't always fun and easy.


Right, I'm sure the doctors will have a label (or create one) and a pill to go along with it to help.



SHE IS LAZY, although I'm sure there is a "condition" for that....and probably even a "pill".......at the end of the day it comes down to THE PERSON.

We have an ENTIRE generation of lazy people. Thank our media, government, society/people and everything around us for that.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Her daughter has not been an adult for 8 years and did not grow up n a great home. 

You can also not believe in MI if you choose not to DoF but it makes just as much sense as not believing in a broken leg. Unless you'd let your kid suffer with a broken leg because those stupid Drs just want to make money off it, don't do the same with MI.


----------



## DanaS

TiggyBlue said:


> Was there problems between you and your daughter before getting with and marrying your husband?


Oh yes, ever since she was a little girl.



Blossom Leigh said:


> No, drag yourself there....


What good will that do? I'm not the one with the problem, my daughter is. Besides, as I said, therapy and just sitting there dredging up old bad memories...no thanks! The majority of therapists have never experienced this in their life but think they know more about how you feel than they do. I don't like airing my dirty laundry or talking about my personal affairs to a stranger.



Anonymous07 said:


> You can't keep putting the blame on everything and everyone else for how your daughter acts. You had a part in it. At some point, you need to acknowledge that and learn from it.
> 
> Again, I'll ask: What will you do differently next time if/when your daughter rebels or acts similar to your older daughter?


I am not, I have just accepted she is who she is, what can I do? 

Well, I hope my new daughter never does, but if she does I will be a lot more strict and the punishment will be quick.


----------



## Anonymous07

DanaS said:


> What good will that do? I'm not the one with the problem, my daughter is. Besides, as I said, therapy and just sitting there dredging up old bad memories...no thanks! The majority of therapists have never experienced this in their life but think they know more about how you feel than they do. I don't like airing my dirty laundry or talking about my personal affairs to a stranger.
> 
> It will help you learn from your mistakes and not repeat them in the future. You can "air your dirty laundry" here to strangers, but not one in person? There really isn't a difference.
> 
> I am not, I have just accepted she is who she is, what can I do?
> 
> Well, I hope my new daughter never does, but if she does I will be a lot more strict and the punishment will be quick.


You can help her and not give up on your daughter. Yes, it's a lot of work, but parenting is not easy. Understanding and empathy go a long way.


----------



## DanaS

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> First off- accepting mental illness as a real thing and not just being "lazy". There is more than just DS or Autism. Talk to your Dr about the risks and what to look out for, when to get help, etc. Even if you don't want your oldest DD anymore this will still help you in the future.
> 
> With your 23 year old-
> She likely needed help long before now, when she was younger was the time to drag her to a Dr. Now it gets tricky because you brushed it off for so long.
> You can still suggest it, admit your own fault in this mess and tell her you will be going to deal with your end of the issues and the offer is open for her to as well.
> Keep in mind that if she does have untreated MI then the chances of her just up and fixing herself gets even worse. This is on you too. Are you willing to let her go knowing you didn't do everything you could to help?
> 
> Being a parent isn't always fun and easy.


Yes, of course I realize there are other mental disorders but does the way my daughter behave HAVE to be due to a mental illness? In Antiquity and the Medeival days did every leader that was responsible for killing people ALWAYS have a mental illness? Some people are just born this way, no mental illness required.



DoF said:


> I'm sorry but how is she to blame for her daughter being a crappy person.
> 
> Her daughter is an ADULT, for over 8 years now......
> 
> Regardless what she might do different, her daughter is NOT the kind of person that gives a shiit.
> 
> I've seen this with many families, kids grown up in a great household turned into complete wrecks.
> 
> WHO or HOW the person is, is a ROLL OF A DICE.
> 
> "Apple doesn't fall far from a tree" only applies SO much to parents.


So true, exactly how I feel! And goes with what I said above.



DoF said:


> Right, I'm sure the doctors will have a label (or create one) and a pill to go along with it to help.
> 
> 
> 
> SHE IS LAZY, although I'm sure there is a "condition" for that....and probably even a "pill".......at the end of the day it comes down to THE PERSON.
> 
> We have an ENTIRE generation of lazy people. Thank our media, government, society/people and everything around us for that.


Another great post from someone who GETS IT! She is lazy and entitled and I believe very narcissistic at that. If my daughter ever grows up or changes at all it'll be due to life kicking her in the *** and not due to sitting in a chair for a few hours a few times a week/month and inevitably talking about how "bad" me and my husband are. 



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Her daughter has not been an adult for 8 years and did not grow up n a great home.
> 
> You can also not believe in MI if you choose not to DoF but it makes just as much sense as not believing in a broken leg. Unless you'd let your kid suffer with a broken leg because those stupid Drs just want to make money off it, don't do the same with MI.


So? Many out there don't grow up in great homes, yet many still don't act the way my daughter does. 

I guess for me, I just see it as she has her fathers genes which influence her behavior and thus nothing to really be done. I've tried to help but she chooses the lazy way, so I am done, she can find her own way. 

After the talk we had at the diner I just kind of threw my hands up and and said "I'm done".


----------



## Basic"FairyDust"Love

Why did you want another child at your age after so many years of not having one and after your rough experience raising your only daughter? 

Do you view it as a possible do over to make you feel better about things turning out wrong with your daughter or is it to try to hold on to a much younger husband?


----------



## DanaS

Anonymous07 said:


> You can help her and not give up on your daughter. Yes, it's a lot of work, but parenting is not easy. *Understanding and empathy go a long way.*


Yeah, that only works when both agree. Please stop suggesting this, it WILL. NOT. WORK! 

As I said in my other reply, the only possible chance is for life to kick her down enough till she decides she wants to grow up and figure out her own problems. This gravy train has stopped. I'm sure her ex bf probably won't want her around that long, perhaps maybe spending some time on the streets would do well to wisen her up and see that sometimes we have to take jobs we don't like; even loath such as fast food or physically demanding manual labor.


----------



## DanaS

Basic"FairyDust"Love said:


> Why did you want another child at your age after so many years of not having one and after your rough experience raising your only daughter?
> 
> Do you view it as a possible do over to make you feel better about things turning out wrong with your daughter or is it to try to hold on to a much younger husband?


I won't lie, part of it did have to do with the thought of me having to have a do over. My daughter may be a lost cause but this one will be raised in far better circumstances and I'll be sure to have effective discipline ready for when she misbehaves. Hopefully she won't get into much.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DanaS said:


> Yes, of course I realize there are other mental disorders but does the way my daughter behave HAVE to be due to a mental illness? In Antiquity and the Medeival days did every leader that was responsible for killing people ALWAYS have a mental illness? Some people are just born this way, no mental illness required.



Your daughter is not a murderer. Geez. Why do you hate this girl so much? 
You have no idea why your daughter acts like she does because you never cared to find out. You blamed it on her Dad and washed your hands of her- long before now.


----------



## TiggyBlue

DanaS said:


> I guess for me, I just see it as she has her fathers genes which influence her behavior and thus nothing to really be done. I've tried to help but she chooses the lazy way, so I am done, she can find her own way.
> .


You're saying she's lazy while simultaneously being lazy about helping her.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DanaS said:


> As I said in my other reply, the only possible chance is for life to kick her down enough till she decides she wants to grow up and figure out her own problems. This gravy train has stopped. I'm sure her ex bf probably won't want her around that long, perhaps maybe spending some time on the streets would do well to wisen her up and see that sometimes we have to take jobs we don't like; even loath such as fast food or physically demanding manual labor.


Or it kills her, or it brings her so down she can never get back up. You don't learn how to work at McDonalds on the street. 

Are you ok with these possibilities knowing you didn't do everything you could? That you dumped her and traded for the new baby?


----------



## NobodySpecial

So I am going to say something really uncomfortable. This child (as in your child not minor person) has some serious problems with boundaries and behavior. There is Simply No Way that her rearing does not contribute. As her mother, you are culpable here. Don't know how since none of us were there. The therapy is so YOU understand how to make your "do over" actually really involve EFFECTIVE discipline. To be honest, you don't sound over mature and emotionally or mentally with it yourself. I imagine some counseling can only help. You are all about casting blame elsewhere. Time to check the mirror before the next one is born.


----------



## DanaS

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Your daughter is not a murderer. Geez. Why do you hate this girl so much?
> You have no idea why your daughter acts like she does because you never cared to find out. You blamed it on her Dad and washed your hands of her- long before now.


I didn't say she was, I was simply talking about how you don't NEED some mental illness to be mean/selfish/hateful. 

Why do I hate her so much? Well, hate is a strong word, but shouldn't all I have said be enough? Geez, she could kill the president and people here would still act like she's some innocent victim that has no responsibility for themselves. 

I don't care about the "why", I just care about results and what results I can expect from action Y or X. 



TiggyBlue said:


> You're saying she's lazy while simultaneously being lazy about helping her.


How have I been lazy? I've called/texted her probably a hundred times and only recently she agreed to meet me. Which I did and she acted like a spoiled brat that needs things her way. I'm not playing that game.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Or it kills her, or it brings her so down she can never get back up. You don't learn how to work at McDonalds on the street.
> 
> Are you ok with these possibilities knowing you didn't do everything you could? That you dumped her and traded for the new baby?


Well, she sure wasn't when she was living with any of her other roommates or with me so I figure best case scenario her ex kicks her out, she spends a day or two on the streets, then comes crawling back home agreeing to MY terms and conditions.




NobodySpecial said:


> So I am going to say something really uncomfortable. This child (as in your child not minor person) has some serious problems with boundaries and behavior. There is Simply No Way that her rearing does not contribute. As her mother, you are culpable here. Don't know how since none of us were there. The therapy is so YOU understand how to make your "do over" actually really involve EFFECTIVE discipline. To be honest, you don't sound over mature and emotionally or mentally with it yourself. I imagine some counseling can only help. You are all about casting blame elsewhere. Time to check the mirror before the next one is born.


Well, neither I, nor my daughter are going to go to therapy or see any counselor, so everyone please just drop it. I am getting tired of hearing this, I said I don't like it, so please move on.


----------



## NewLife2017

Let's get another perspective. I am 49 years old. My mom died when I was 20 (1985) and my dad finally remarried in 2004. He moved out of state with his new wife and I have been really resentful up until last year. I am an only child and wanted my dad close to me. While I NEVER was disrespectful to him, I did not have a high opinion of his wife. It took one statement from someone who is a stranger to make me change how I was feeling/acting. They said "as long as he is happy". So, who am I to judge my dad or his wife. All I want is for him to be truly happy. I have since gotten over myself.

Dana's daughter does NOT care about her mom's happiness. She is 23, not 3. She is responsible for her own actions. Therapy only works if SHE wants to go. I have a therapist, but it isn't for everyone. Clearly it's not for Dana so we all should respect that. 

The issue isn't that Dana's daughter isn't loved, it's the fact that she is hateful and disrespectful. I don't think that's exclusive to Dana & her husband. I think this would have happened regardless of Dana's husbands age. As tunera put it, PEOPLE ARE WHO THEY ARE UNTIL THEY WANT TO CHANGE.

And really, does age matter? They are clearly ok with it and it's none of anyone's business but theirs. I don't think it's fair to say her husband will leave her by the time she's 50. That's just hurtful.

As far as the homeless shelter, *good for you Dana*. If I had done what she did at my parent's house, I would have been thrown out of the house along with my stuff. But only after I picked myself up off the floor. My parents would not have taken the time to take me to a shelter.

The only way Dana's daughter will learn is through experience. She will need to hit rock bottom. And until that happens, she will not change. She is clearly ok with her own behavior. It's Dana's right to walk away from this until that happens. Her daughter is toxic. I am not reading her as an unloving parent, I'm reading her as someone who is desperate to save her daughter but knows she can't. Only her daughter can save herself.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DanaS said:


> I didn't say she was, I was simply talking about how you don't NEED some mental illness to be mean/selfish/hateful.
> 
> Why do I hate her so much? Well, hate is a strong word, but shouldn't all I have said be enough? Geez, she could kill the president and people here would still act like she's some innocent victim that has no responsibility for themselves.


To at least some degree, she IS an innocent victim. She is the innocent victim of what sounds like seriously craptastic parenting.



> I don't care about the "why", I just care about results and what results I can expect from action Y or X.


It is rather difficult to solve a problem without understanding the root cause.



> How have I been lazy?


Well honestly the way it looks from here, you went along with her bad behavior, went along, went along, went along, did nothing much, then lost your nut and tossed her into a homeless shelter.




> I've called/texted her probably a hundred times and only recently she agreed to meet me. Which I did and she acted like a spoiled brat that needs things her way. I'm not playing that game.
> 
> 
> Well, she sure wasn't when she was living with any of her other roommates or with me so I figure best case scenario her ex kicks her out, she spends a day or two on the streets, then comes crawling back home agreeing to MY terms and conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, neither I, nor my daughter are going to go to therapy or see any counselor, so everyone please just drop it. I am getting tired of hearing this, I said I don't like it, so please move on.


Sometimes people need to hear what they don't like to hear.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Nah nah nah nah. My fingers are in my ears. I can't hear you! <-- OP why did you post?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DanaS said:


> What good will that do? I'm not the one with the problem, my daughter is. Besides, as I said, therapy and just sitting there dredging up old bad memories...no thanks! The majority of therapists have never experienced this in their life but think they know more about how you feel than they do. I don't like airing my dirty laundry or talking about my personal affairs to a stranger.


This is almost verbatim what my mother said about me and also therapy for herself. In case you don't know, I've had two therapists tell me she is a malignant narcissist. 


Also, do you realize you are comparing your daughter to war criminals who massacred millions of people, that my dear is catastrophizing and an extreme form of emotional control tactic.

Blaming everything regarding her with NO blame in yourself for anything is blameshifting.

You minimize her concern over your marriage choice, without addressing it.. thats on this list too...

Out of the FOG - Personality Disorder Support

I recommend taking a good long hard look at yourself because you are very culpable in this situation and you are doomed to repeat it if you do not learn to choose better . I am now seeing major red flags on both sides.

You both want love and acceptance.

You both have contributed to the destruction of this relationship.

Only one of you can go first to break the pattern.

If you aren't willing to grow, this relationship will remain broken.


----------



## karole

Blossom Leigh said:


> This is almost verbatim what my mother said about me and also therapy for herself. In case you don't know, I've had two therapists tell me she is a malignant narcissist.
> 
> 
> Also, do you realize you are comparing your daughter to war criminals who massacred millions of people, that my dear is catastrophizing and an extreme form of emotional control tactic.
> 
> Blaming everything regarding her with NO blame in yourself for anything is blameshifting.
> 
> You minimize her concern over your marriage choice, without addressing it.. thats on this list too...
> 
> Out of the FOG - Personality Disorder Support
> 
> I recommend taking a good long hard look at yourself because you are very culpable in this situation and you are doomed to repeat it if you do not learn to choose better . I am now seeing major red flags on both sides.
> 
> You both want love and acceptance.
> 
> You both have contributed to the destruction of this relationship.
> 
> Only one of you can go first to break the pattern.
> 
> If you aren't willing to grow, this relationship will remain broken.


Great post Blossom - And if I could so boldly add one more thing -- history will repeat itself!!


----------



## DanaS

NewLife2017 said:


> Let's get another perspective. I am 49 years old. My mom died when I was 20 (1985) and my dad finally remarried in 2004. He moved out of state with his new wife and I have been really resentful up until last year. I am an only child and wanted my dad close to me. While I NEVER was disrespectful to him, I did not have a high opinion of his wife. It took one statement from someone who is a stranger to make me change how I was feeling/acting. They said "as long as he is happy". So, who am I to judge my dad or his wife. All I want is for him to be truly happy. I have since gotten over myself.
> 
> Dana's daughter does NOT care about her mom's happiness. She is 23, not 3. She is responsible for her own actions. Therapy only works if SHE wants to go. I have a therapist, but it isn't for everyone. Clearly it's not for Dana so we all should respect that.
> 
> The issue isn't that Dana's daughter isn't loved, it's the fact that she is hateful and disrespectful. I don't think that's exclusive to Dana & her husband. I think this would have happened regardless of Dana's husbands age. As tunera put it, PEOPLE ARE WHO THEY ARE UNTIL THEY WANT TO CHANGE.
> 
> And really, does age matter? They are clearly ok with it and it's none of anyone's business but theirs. I don't think it's fair to say her husband will leave her by the time she's 50. That's just hurtful.
> 
> As far as the homeless shelter, *good for you Dana*. If I had done what she did at my parent's house, I would have been thrown out of the house along with my stuff. But only after I picked myself up off the floor. My parents would not have taken the time to take me to a shelter.
> 
> The only way Dana's daughter will learn is through experience. She will need to hit rock bottom. And until that happens, she will not change. She is clearly ok with her own behavior. It's Dana's right to walk away from this until that happens. Her daughter is toxic. I am not reading her as an unloving parent, I'm reading her as someone who is desperate to save her daughter but knows she can't. Only her daughter can save herself.


THANK YOU!!! You, along with DoF seem to fully understand what's going on. How my daughter turned out is not my fault, I have nothing to BE sad about. I raised her the best way I knew how, but my ex ended up as the biggest influence and she would spend all her time doing things with him. If my daughter does have some kind of mental disorder then I guess my ex husband must have the same kind. 

I guess according to most here even despite the horrible way my ex husband treated me (being verbally/emotionally and a few times physically abusive) I should've just accepted that I was culpable for the horrible way he treated me and I should have "just shown some empathy" and try to get him into counseling where he can just "talk his anger/rage/narcissism away", give me a break!


----------



## richie33

Only wants posters to agree with her.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DanaS said:


> THANK YOU!!! You, along with DoF seem to fully understand what's going on. How my daughter turned out is not my fault, I have nothing to BE sad about. I raised her the best way I knew how, but my ex ended up as the biggest influence and she would spend all her time doing things with him. If my daughter does have some kind of mental disorder then I guess my ex husband must have the same kind.
> 
> I guess according to most here even despite the horrible way my ex husband treated me (being verbally/emotionally and a few times physically abusive) I should've just accepted that I was culpable for the horrible way he treated me and I should have "just shown some empathy" and try to get him into counseling where he can just "talk his anger/rage/narcissism away", give me a break!


Wait. Are you assuming that all of those of us who are trying to help you are saying the same thing?

I am not sure how your husband's treatment of YOU changes what your responsibilities to your daughter were. I am a mother. Problems that are not handled or ineffectively handled are my fault. Period. Because _I am the mother._ 

There is nothing of beating you up about my intention. If you absolutely refuse to learn from this, you set yourself up to repeat or do something equally daffy likely on the opposite end of the disciplinary spectrum.

Now how you dealt with your grown daughter was not the most effective way you could have dealt with it. You allowed her to tread all over you with not one effective measure until you lost your top and dumped her in a homeless shelter. Trust me, I am not in camp empathy. Consequences were the order of the day. But instead of being direct but firm, and telling her to leave your house, you lied to her to get her somewhere you could dump her. Because YOU did not WANT to call the police. 

See how that goes?


----------



## batsociety

I posted in this thread somewhat sympathetically a few days ago. Now reading these updates is actually making me feel ill. 

This is your DAUGHTER and you're talking about her like she's never been anything but a burden to you, long before you met your husband (the fact that you married him when she was obviously so uncomfortable with it is another issue entirely). No wonder why she's such a mess now, Christ. 

Our children to not choose to be born. When we decide to have (and keep) a child we are also agreeing to putting up with all of their sh*t (and there's going to be a LOT of it). You can't just bail when things get nasty. Do we need campaigns now like the animal welfare groups run around the holidays each year? A puppy is not just for Christmas? A child is not just for as long as it's convenient for you? I know what you're thinking "my daughter isn't a child! She is 23!" A person's age is not indicative of their maturity and ability. It is OUR job as parents to help give them the tools they need to become responsible, capable adults. 

And by the way, therapy is not BS. I work as a psychologist in a juvenile detention center (and previously in regular prisons), and I have personal experience with mental illness myself. I chose this line of work because I want to help these kids realize that SOMEONE gives a **** about them, that what has happened to them or what they have done does not have to define their future. Often, it's convincing them that they are worth way more than their parents wanted them to believe. 

I'm sorry if I'm being harsh. Nothing pisses me off more than this kind of attitude because I see where it leads every damn day. Please think about what you are doing.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DanaS said:


> I didn't say she was, I was simply talking about how you don't NEED some mental illness to be mean/selfish/hateful.
> 
> Why do I hate her so much? Well, hate is a strong word, but shouldn't all I have said be enough? Geez, she could kill the president and people here would still act like she's some innocent victim that has no responsibility for themselves.
> 
> I don't care about the "why", I just care about results and what results I can expect from action Y or X.
> 
> .


Jumping from being immature to killing the president isn't logical. She's bratty but it sounds like you are acting much more hateful and selfish than she is at this point. 

You need to know the why and you need to accept that you are a part of it. If you don't, you will continue to make the same mistakes.


----------



## tonedef

Out with the old and in with the new huh? I hope your upgraded new and approved model, sorry, baby, works out for you. I also hope your daughter- your first born that you raised gets a do over as well. Yes her behavior is deplorable but I think you are being straight up callous about her in the sense that YOUR life will okay cause you can start over. You sound more angry than heartbroken.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## batsociety

DanaS said:


> I raised her the best way I knew how, but my ex ended up as the biggest influence and she would spend all her time doing things with him.
> 
> 
> I guess according to most here even despite the horrible way my ex husband treated me (being verbally/emotionally and a few times physically abusive)


Why would you not fight like HELL to keep your daughter away from someone who was abusive towards you!

I am too damn hormonal for this kind of junk today.


----------



## DanaS

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Jumping from being immature to killing the president isn't logical. She's bratty but it sounds like you are acting much more hateful and selfish than she is at this point.
> 
> You need to know the why and you need to accept that you are a part of it. If you don't, you will continue to make the same mistakes.


Okay, whatever, I guess I will continue to make the same "mistakes". I know I've given her more chances than most would. 

If she decides to grow up she knows where to find me


----------



## NobodySpecial

DanaS said:


> Okay, whatever, I guess I will continue to make the same "mistakes". I know I've given her more chances than most would.


Do you feel that doing so was very effective?


----------



## DanaS

batsociety said:


> Why would you not fight like HELL to keep your daughter away from someone who was abusive towards you!
> 
> I am too damn hormonal for this kind of junk today.


Why does it matter now, what's done is done. I guess I should hate myself for not empathizing with my ex and getting him some good old fashioned "counseling". 

At this point I wish she could contact her dad and move up with him so she can be his problem.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Dana... my mother and step father both contributed *heavily* to damage in me but I REFUSE to allow that to direct my choices with my own child today. FAR from it.... I have worked my A$$ off to learn to choose differently...Your husbands treatment of you in *no way* absolves your responsibility to choose constructive attitudes and behaviors in how to handle your daughter and right now (you are making the VERY same mistake my mother made), though I agree with consequences for her foul behavior I DO NOT condone your ABUSIVE destructive attitude at all regarding her right now.... I was letting it slide a bit when you first mentioned Hitler and Stalin, but as time went on it became very clear to me that your abusive attitude towards her is contributing heavily to this situation. REGARDLESS of her behavior, maturity maintains personal integrity. In other words... the destructive choices of others DO NOT dictate YOU choosing the same. And because YOU are the older adult in this relationship I hold you to a higher standard than your daughter. Constructive consequences, yes. Destructive abusive attitudes, no.

I am extremely disappointed.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DanaS said:


> Okay, whatever, I guess I will continue to make the same "mistakes". I know I've given her more chances than most would.
> 
> If she decides to grow up she knows where to find me


The mistakes were not getting her help when you could. For being hateful towards her and just wanting her out of your life so you could have your fresh start. For not listening to her feelings about your husband. For projecting your hate for her father and your insecurity about your new relationship onto her. For demonizing her for being a product of her environment- you included. 

She may mature and decide she can't forgive you. She may have had so much problems in her life that she can't get out on her own and just keep sinking. 

As much as you don't want to hear it, being so hateful towards your daughter is not normal and you should talk to someone about it. Maybe your problems with your ex made you detach from Motherhood but there's something going on IMO.


----------



## DanaS

tonedef said:


> Out with the old and in with the new huh? I hope your upgraded new and approved model, sorry, baby, works out for you. I also hope your daughter- your first born that you raised gets a do over as well. Yes her behavior is deplorable but I think you are being straight up callous about her in the sense that YOUR life will okay cause you can start over. You sound more angry than heartbroken.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess that is one way of looking at it. If my daughter wants a do over then she will have to find it within herself. 

As for being callous...At first I was heartbroken, but honestly, I just am tired of fighting. But after all she's said and done of course I am very angry.



Blossom Leigh said:


> Dana... my mother and step father both contributed *heavily* to damage in me but I REFUSE to allow that to direct my choices with my own child today. FAR from it.... I have worked my A$$ off to learn to choose differently...Your husbands treatment of you in *no way* absolves your responsibility to choose constructive attitudes and behaviors in how to handle your daughter and right now (you are making the VERY same mistake my mother made), though I agree with consequences for her foul behavior I DO NOT condone your ABUSIVE destructive attitude at all regarding her right now.... I was letting it slide a bit when you first mentioned Hitler and Stalin, but as time went on it became very clear to me that your abusive attitude towards her is contributing heavily to this situation. REGARDLESS of her behavior, maturity maintains personal integrity. In other words... the destructive choices of others DO NOT dictate YOU choosing the same. And because YOU are the older adult in this relationship I hold you to a higher standard than your daughter. Constructive consequences, yes. Destructive abusive attitudes, no.
> 
> I am extremely disappointed.


Well, that sucks for you. But you obviously don't have the issues my daughter does. 

I guess there's little point discussing this further. I have already laid out what I plan to do, that being not worry about it, hope she grows up, if she does, great, if not, at least I have another chance. I still say a few days on the streets would change her mind and she would come home willing to agree to my demands for living here.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DanaS said:


> Why does it matter now, what's done is done. I guess I should hate myself for not empathizing with my ex and getting him some good old fashioned "counseling".
> .


I am guessing that this is the crux of the issue. You cannot admit to yourself that you could have done differently because you feel that requires you to hate yourself. Instead of accepting mistakes, forgiving yourself where needed, and learning from them, you have to deny them, excuse them or blame them on someone else so that you don't have to hate yourself.

Yes I do believe that you would benefit from counseling. For my part, I see no shame there. Getting help from a professional for he flu is not looked down on. Why would counseling from a therapist? I go to one.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DanaS said:


> I guess there's little point discussing this further. I have already laid out what I plan to do, that being not worry about it, hope she grows up, if she does, great, if not, at least I have another chance. I still say a few days on the streets would change her mind and she would come home willing to agree to my demands for living here.


A new child is not another chance to fix mistakes with the first one. 

I don't think it's in your daughter's best interest to be in your home, no matter how much she matures.


----------



## DanaS

NobodySpecial said:


> I am guessing that this is the crux of the issue. You cannot admit to yourself that you could have done differently because you feel that requires you to hate yourself. Instead of accepting mistakes, forgiving yourself where needed, and learning from them, you have to deny them, excuse them or blame them on someone else so that you don't have to hate yourself.
> 
> Yes I do believe that you would benefit from counseling. For my part, I see no shame there. Getting help from a professional for he flu is not looked down on. Why would counseling from a therapist? I go to one.


Well, I don't agree with any of that but if that's what you believe...

And for the last time, I will NOT go to any counselor. Please, just drop it. I am already dealing with a headache.


----------



## DanaS

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> A new child is not another chance to fix mistakes with the first one.
> 
> I don't think it's in your daughter's best interest to be in your home, no matter how much she matures.


Yes it is, traits like extreme narcissism, violent/dangerous behavior, hyper entitlement are mostly genetic. My daughter is the way she is because of bad genes, it's not a coincidence if you knew my ex and my daughter you'd think personality wise they were spitting images of each other.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DanaS said:


> Well, I don't agree with any of that but if that's what you believe...
> 
> And for the last time, I will NOT go to any counselor. Please, just drop it. I am already dealing with a headache.


Once upon a time, I went on a usenet group a gentleman would not stop telling me what he thought I needed to hear. I am pretty grateful for that fact.


----------



## Miss Independent

DanaS said:


> Yes it is, traits like extreme narcissism, violent/dangerous behavior, hyper entitlement are mostly genetic. My daughter is the way she is because of bad genes, it's not a coincidence if you knew my ex and my daughter you'd think personality wise they were spitting images of each other.


Perhaps the greatest faculty our minds possess is the ability to cope with pain. Classic thinking teaches us of the four doors of the mind, which everyone moves through according to their need.

First is the door of sleep. Sleep offers us a retreat from the world and all its pain. Sleep marks passing time, giving us distance from the things that have hurt us. When a person is wounded they will often fall unconscious. Similarly, someone who hears traumatic news will often swoon or faint. This is the mind's way of protecting itself from pain by stepping through the first door.

Second is the door of forgetting. Some wounds are too deep to heal, or too deep to heal quickly. In addition, many memories are simply painful, and there is no healing to be done. The saying 'time heals all wounds' is false. Time heals most wounds. The rest are hidden behind this door.

Third is the door of madness. There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.


----------



## Anonymous07

DanaS said:


> Yes it is, traits like extreme narcissism, violent/dangerous behavior, hyper entitlement are mostly genetic. My daughter is the way she is because of bad genes, it's not a coincidence if you knew my ex and my daughter you'd think personality wise they were spitting images of each other.


violent/dangerous behavior? 

You mentioned she threw a party, back talked, and used your husband's lap top without asking. Sounds pretty typical to me. How is she dangerous? 

When will you look at yourself and admit to making mistakes? 
I know as a mom myself, I have made mistakes. I didn't handle things the best way at all times and I'm learning from those mistakes to hopefully always do better in the future. If you never admit to making mistakes with your daughter, I really fear for your new baby, as you will continue to make the same mistakes.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DanaS said:


> Yes it is, traits like extreme narcissism, violent/dangerous behavior, hyper entitlement are mostly genetic. My daughter is the way she is because of bad genes, it's not a coincidence if you knew my ex and my daughter you'd think personality wise they were spitting images of each other.


Your daughter is the way she is for many reasons. You also have issues. Maybe some immaturity and self-centred behaviour. You made- and are still making - mistakes raising her, you seem to lack bonding and love and jump to extremes of hatred for her. Even if she matures, you would have to fix yourself before you could have any kind of relationship with her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DanaS said:


> Well, that sucks for you. But you obviously don't have the issues my daughter does.


I'm talking about YOU making a better choice.

You just totally blameshifted again... wow


----------



## DanaS

Anonymous07 said:


> violent/dangerous behavior?
> 
> You mentioned she threw a party, back talked, and used your husband's lap top without asking. Sounds pretty typical to me. How is she dangerous?
> 
> When will you look at yourself and admit to making mistakes?
> I know as a mom myself, I have made mistakes. I didn't handle things the best way at all times and I'm learning from those mistakes to hopefully always do better in the future. If you never admit to making mistakes with your daughter, I really fear for your new baby, as you will continue to make the same mistakes.


You misunderstand, I just used "violent/danegerous behavior" in a general way. Not saying my daughter is (though she has punched a hole in the wall a few times).


----------



## bravenewworld

DanaS said:


> *Yes it is, traits like extreme narcissism, violent/dangerous behavior, hyper entitlement are mostly genetic.* My daughter is the way she is because of bad genes, it's not a coincidence if you knew my ex and my daughter you'd think personality wise they were spitting images of each other.


Bolded because there is absolutely no scientific proof on any of the above. Narcissism and hyper entitlement are mostly genetic? Um. 

The more you post, the more I understand why your daughter behaves the way she does.


----------



## DoF

I feel like many people here are being really tough on OP/Dana.......not sure why.

Also, lot of your opinions/advice is based on assumptions.


----------



## DanaS

It would sure be nice if all these arm chair psychologists would come down and take her away for awhile. I doubt you'd be trying to help her for very long. 

Perhaps I just don't have the patience to deal with this. God forbid my daughter ever has kids of her own...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

What did you do when she punch a hole in the wall?

She accepts zero blame DoF... in THIS situation, that is impossible.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DanaS said:


> It would sure be nice if all these arm chair psychologists would come down and take her away for awhile. I doubt you'd be trying to help her for very long.


I do believe that most of us are trying to help you. Not her. Her only by extension. You are the one who posted.


----------



## DanaS

bravenewworld said:


> Bolded because there is absolutely no scientific proof on any of the above. Narcissism and hyper entitlement are mostly genetic? Um.
> 
> The more you post, the more I understand why your daughter behaves the way she does.


Are we not made up by our genes? Do our genes not greatly influence how we act/think/behave since, after all, if they didn't wouldn't we all act the same?



DoF said:


> I feel like many people here are being really tough on OP/Dana.......not sure why.
> 
> Also, lot of your opinions/advice is based on assumptions.


Thanks. I have a feeling some mothers here who have regrets on how they raised their own children are using me as a punching bag to make themselves feel better TBH.


----------



## DanaS

Blossom Leigh said:


> What did you do when she punch a hole in the wall?
> 
> She accepts zero blame DoF... in THIS situation, that is impossible.


Yelled at her and told her she was paying for it.


----------



## DoF

NobodySpecial said:


> I do believe that most of us are trying to help you. Not her. Her only by extension. You are the one who posted.


Problem is, she deserves NO help.

We are talking BASIC of human survival here. 

"If she is NOT willing to work, NOTHING will work out."


----------



## NobodySpecial

DanaS said:


> Are we not made up by our genes? Do our genes not greatly influence how we act/think/behave since, after all, if they didn't wouldn't we all act the same?


Oy! Holy simplified justification! I imagine you know that the degree with which nature or nurture defines us is not very well known.



> Thanks. I have a feeling some mothers here who have regrets on how they raised their own children are using me as a punching bag to make themselves feel better TBH.


It's kind of das that your defenses are SO strong that you cannot even understand what is being said to you. I am sorry. I hope for a wonderful life for you.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DoF said:


> Problem is, she deserves NO help.
> 
> We are talking BASIC of human survival here.
> 
> "If she is NOT willing to work, NOTHING will work out."


Everyone is deserving of help. This is a broken person, not a bad person. She got her teeth kicked in a bunch. Tends to mess you up. If no one helps you twist your head in the right direction, what do you have? To offer small bits in the hopes it helps her costs me nothing. It appears to do her no good. But who knows.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DanaS said:


> Are we not made up by our genes? Do our genes not greatly influence how we act/think/behave since, after all, if they didn't wouldn't we all act the same?
> 
> 
> *Thanks. I have a feeling some mothers here who have regrets on how they raised their own children are using me as a punching bag to make themselves feel better *TBH.



Total excuse....


*Don't flatter yourself..*


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DoF said:


> "If she is NOT willing to work, NOTHING will work out."


Ditto for the Mom


----------



## bravenewworld

DoF said:


> I feel like many people here are being really tough on OP/Dana.......not sure why.
> 
> Also, lot of your opinions/advice is based on assumptions.


I have no clue who Dana is as person, I'm guessing like most of us (myself included) she is a flawed person trying to do the right thing. 

That said, I take huge offense at anyone blame-shifting that certain behaviors are genetic when they is absolutely no *scientific* proof. 

Can you imagine if a poster on TAM said they "had to cheat" because it's in their genetics that one of their bad evil parents passed down? Come on. Way to alleviate yourself of all personal responsibility with sheer ignorance. 

My opinions are based on the background info Dana has given us - the same as yours. There is a difference between "having a perspective" and "making an assumption."


----------



## NobodySpecial

DanaS said:


> Yelled at her and told her she was paying for it.


How did that work out? Did she pay for it?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ditto for the Mom


I need a solid dope slap. I thought he was referring to Dana.


----------



## DoF

Blossom Leigh said:


> She accepts zero blame DoF... in THIS situation, that is impossible.


I'm SURE Dana knows this and accepts that she is not perfect. I thought this was common sense? In relation to this thread/topic, I just don't see it (and after all, that's why we are here, this topic at hand).

This thread is not about her ENTIRE LIFE and assumptions or what ifs.

This thread is about this particular situation, which she handles perfectly in my eyes.

No need to bring the unknown into it or dwell on other things.

Let me take this a little further. Let's assume Dana was the worst of the worst parents EVER. We have PLENTY of folks here that had these types of parents (I know many people that did).

THEY TURNED OUT JUST FINE AND WERE ABLE TO FIT INTO OUR SOCIETY.

Her daughter REFUSES to do so and USES PEOPLE.

If ANYTHING, her mother's ****ty ways should make her stronger and make her realize how she should be different. 

What else is there?

And again, I ask the same question for the 3rd time for ALL of the ladies here.

Would you give THE SAME exact advice if this was a son? Can ANY woman please answer this? 

Would you still recommend these things to Dana and be "sensitive" and "go up and beyond"?

:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:

This is silly. Stop ganging up on her. She is pregnant and is dealing with a pretty severe situation here (losing her daughter). That is hard enough, no need to point fingers and blame HER for it.

The issue at hand (and of this thread) is "My daughter is not willing to grow the F up and take care of herself".

And this issue cannot be resolved as long as her daughter doesn't get her shiiit together.

All of the other stuff is really irrelevant. I don't blame Dana for doing what she did one bit. I would've done exact same thing, especially since she has been on the "taken advantage" of end for so long.

Human can only take SO much of that. 

Enough is enough


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

Dof- She's not losing her daughter, she is saying that she doesn't want to bother with her anymore because she has a new chance. She doesn't want her old daughter in her new life.

Some people can grow stronger out of a toxic situation, some need a lot of time, therapy and help to get there. Some never do. 

Yes, if it was her son I would feel the same.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DoF said:


> I'm SURE Dana knows this and accepts that she is not perfect. I thought this was common sense?


While anyone might be willing to cop a platitude like nobody's perfect, I see no evidence from her posting that she has any interest in accepting responsibility for anything. There is no such thing as an isolated situation. We are all products of everything that goes on around us.


----------



## DoF

bravenewworld said:


> I have no clue who Dana is as person,


So please stop blaming her for unknown and with assumptions.



bravenewworld said:


> I'm guessing like most of us (myself included) she is a flawed person trying to do the right thing.


Yes, common knowledge.



bravenewworld said:


> That said, I take huge offense at anyone blame-shifting that certain behaviors are genetic when they is absolutely no *scientific* proof.


Does it even matter? Seriously? 

Kids ALL around the world face hunger, abuse, disease and all kinds of crazy shiit most of us can't even comprehend.

THEY STILL GET A JOB AND DO WHAT IT TAKES TO SURVIVE!!!

As for genetic/scientific stuff. It's a roll of the dice.....again, doesn't matter for this topic at hand. 




bravenewworld said:


> Can you imagine if a poster on TAM said they "had to cheat" because it's in their genetics that one of their bad evil parents passed down? Come on. Way to alleviate yourself of all personal responsibility with sheer ignorance.


Again, WAY out of context and outside of subject at hand. 



bravenewworld said:


> My opinions are based on the background info Dana has given us - the same as yours. There is a difference between "having a perspective" and "making an assumption."


Please tell me and Dana EXACTLY step by step direction on how to get her daughter to get a F'in job and NOT use/rely on other people.

Go ahead


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DoF- this is way beyond just her daughter getting a job. Even if she found one today, there are still so many things going on. The job is a symptom, not the issue.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DoF said:


> So please stop blaming her for unknown and with assumptions.


Only a severely defensive person would equate suggesting that there is mental health benefit and learning to be had by admitting ones mistakes with blame.


----------



## DoF

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Dof- She's not losing her daughter,


Maybe this is not very clear to you, but yes, she not only IS losing her, but already lost her.

If some of you can be a little sensitive to that, that would be great.

She is also pregnant.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> she is saying that she doesn't want to bother with her anymore because she has a new chance. She doesn't want her old daughter in her new life.


And if you were in her shoes, you would do the same.

If not, you would be used.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Some people can grow stronger out of a toxic situation, some need a lot of time, therapy and help to get there. Some never do.
> 
> Yes, if it was her son I would feel the same.


And Dana has given her time and even offered her house to do so. In my eyes, that's a nice foundation to work from.

Her daughter took not only took advantage of that, she basically craped on her as well.

Come on now


----------



## DoF

NobodySpecial said:


> Only a severely defensive person would equate suggesting that there is mental health benefit and learning to be had by admitting ones mistakes with blame.


NONE OF THIS MATTERS AND WILL NOT HELP HER DAUGHTER GET A JOB AND BE SELF RELIANT. 

Off topic, sorry


----------



## bravenewworld

DoF said:


> I'm SURE Dana knows this and accepts that she is not perfect. I thought this was common sense? In relation to this thread/topic, I just don't see it (and after all, that's why we are here, this topic at hand).
> 
> This thread is not about her ENTIRE LIFE and assumptions or what ifs.
> 
> This thread is about this particular situation, which she handles perfectly in my eyes.
> 
> No need to bring the unknown into it or dwell on other things.
> 
> Let me take this a little further. Let's assume Dana was the worst of the worst parents EVER. We have PLENTY of folks here that had these types of parents (I know many people that did).
> 
> THEY TURNED OUT JUST FINE AND WERE ABLE TO FIT INTO OUR SOCIETY.
> 
> Her daughter REFUSES to do so and USES PEOPLE.
> 
> If ANYTHING, her mother's ****ty ways should make her stronger and make her realize how she should be different.
> 
> What else is there?
> 
> And again, I ask the same question for the 3rd time for ALL of the ladies here.
> 
> Would you give THE SAME exact advice if this was a son? Can ANY woman please answer this?
> 
> Would you still recommend these things to Dana and be "sensitive" and "go up and beyond"?
> 
> :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:
> 
> This is silly. Stop ganging up on her. She is pregnant and is dealing with a pretty severe situation here (losing her daughter). That is hard enough, no need to point fingers and blame HER for it.
> 
> The issue at hand (and of this thread) is "My daughter is not willing to grow the F up and take care of herself".
> 
> And this issue cannot be resolved as long as her daughter doesn't get her shiiit together.
> 
> All of the other stuff is really irrelevant. I don't blame Dana for doing what she did one bit. I would've done exact same thing, especially since she has been on the "taken advantage" of end for so long.
> 
> Human can only take SO much of that.
> 
> Enough is enough


People are responding to the topic at hand, and some (myself included) don't agree with your or Dana's perspective on the matter. 

First off - yes, I would have responded the exact same way if it was a son and not a daughter. The fact you "assume" we would respond differently is quite interesting, and perhaps, telling.

Honestly, I feel like much of your above post is trying to dictate the way other people post and telling them that their opinion is unnecessary or irrelevant, and I'm not cool with that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

No one's behavior around Dana excuses her abusive attitude towards her daughter, just as there is no excuse for her daughters abusive attitude, DoF 

The original event was handled partially correctly.


----------



## DoF

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> DoF- this is way beyond just her daughter getting a job. Even if she found one today, there are still so many things going on. The job is a symptom, not the issue.


Okie dokie

Dana, give these people her number and let them reach out to her and help.

Let's the the experts at work. 

Sorry, but I have dealt with SO many people like this and have reached the following conclusion.

"You cannot help ANYONE that is not willing to help themselves"

You will never change my mind on this as I have went up and beyond for people AND some. And you better believe I got hurt in the process.

I just wish SOMEONE on this planet would've taught me this lesson MUCH MUCH earlier. It would've saved me TONS of trouble and time.


----------



## DoF

Blossom Leigh said:


> No one's behavior around Dana excuses her abusive attitude towards her daughter, just as there is no excuse for her daughters abusive attitude, DoF
> 
> The original event was handled partially correctly.


It feels like lot of you here are kind of attacking her and not really being helpful. Maybe it's just me.

I think this thread is a wrap....


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DoF said:


> And if you were in her shoes, you would do the same.
> 
> If not, you would be used.


No. I would get my child help. In fact I would have long before 23, but she would be in therapy and career counselling. She would be made to be sending off applications to jobs daily. I would be understanding of a little young adult rebellion due to the new relationship but have firm boundaries at the same time. She may need to move out if the situation became too toxic but I'd never just shrug it off and say oh well, I have a new one coming. Hope this one turns out better. 
And I would never hate my kids. Never think of them as a lost cause, especially not for these kinds of issues.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DoF said:


> Okie dokie
> 
> Dana, give these people her number and let them reach out to her and help.
> 
> Let's the the experts at work.
> 
> Sorry, but I have dealt with SO many people like this and have reached the following conclusion.
> 
> *"You cannot help ANYONE that is not willing to help themselves"*
> 
> You will never change my mind on this as I have went up and beyond for people AND some. And you better believe I got hurt in the process.
> 
> I just wish SOMEONE on this planet would've taught me this lesson MUCH MUCH earlier. It would've saved me TONS of trouble and time.


At this point it is trying to help *Dana* see her flaws and how she is contributing to this situation

There for she is proving your statement bolded above

She doesn't think she has a problem

THAT's the problem at hand at the moment

we are past the daughter at this point

Yes, because she refuses any culpability, you may be right that this thread is a wrap


----------



## NobodySpecial

DoF said:


> Please tell me and Dana EXACTLY step by step direction on how to get her daughter to get a F'in job and NOT use/rely on other people.


There is not a single thing ever that a person can do to GET another person to do something. All they can do is set EFFECTIVE limits, speak and listen for understanding, refrain from judging. When you seek to GET someone to do something, you seek to control them and the possibility of understanding is lost.


----------



## DoF

People are talking about empathy (or lack of from OP)......yet I see VERY little empathy from the very posters.

OP is in a really difficult situation in life. 
- Pregnant
- used by her loved one
- essentially lost her daughter and very little hope

Can we have little empathy for HER?

If there is ANYONE that needs a shoulder to cry on/support and empathy, it's Dana.


----------



## DanaS

NobodySpecial said:


> Oy! Holy simplified justification! I imagine you know that the degree with which nature or nurture defines us is not very well known.
> 
> 
> 
> It's kind of das that your defenses are SO strong that you cannot even understand what is being said to you. I am sorry. I hope for a wonderful life for you.


Well, I have always been one that believes nature>>>>>>nurture by a long shot. Heck, isn't a person that is legitimately ill; isn't their mental illness a result of genetics?

I am sure there are many that believe the same, but most are too scared to really look at it due to the implications. Imagine what society would be like if it were indeed proven nature has a bigger effect on how someone turns out than nurture. 

Anywhoo, basically everything DoF said was spot on.


----------



## DoF

NobodySpecial said:


> There is not a single thing ever that a person can do to GET another person to do something. All they can do is set EFFECTIVE limits


OP did that



NobodySpecial said:


> speak and listen for understanding, refrain from judging..


OP did that



NobodySpecial said:


> When you seek to GET someone to do something, you seek to control them and the possibility of understanding is lost.


This one is a little sketchy. There is a fine line between right and wrong on this.

Besides, how many of you ladies post here and ask "how do I get my husband to......."

Dana is ADVISING her daughter what she needs to do to get her life in order. This what loved ones do, they advice when loved one is in trouble.

Remember, she has been doing this for MANY YEARS and even provided help.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DoF said:


> People are talking about empathy (or lack of from OP)......yet I see VERY little empathy from the very posters.
> 
> OP is in a really difficult situation in life.
> - Pregnant
> - used by her loved one
> - essentially lost her daughter and very little hope
> 
> Can we have little empathy for HER?
> 
> If there is ANYONE that needs a shoulder to cry on/support and empathy, it's Dana.


She absolutely has empathy

But I will always challenge

My empathy falls on the side of the pain she will feel down the road if she chooses to stay on this path permanently.


----------



## jld

DoF said:


> People are talking about empathy (or lack of from OP)......yet I see VERY little empathy from the very posters.
> 
> OP is in a really difficult situation in life.
> - Pregnant
> - used by her loved one
> - essentially lost her daughter and very little hope
> 
> Can we have little empathy for HER?
> 
> If there is ANYONE that needs a shoulder to cry on/support and empathy, it's Dana.


I think what people are trying to illustrate for Dana is how hard it is to take responsibility for the things we are doing wrong when inside we're feeling hurt and aggrieved.

Dana's daughter is hurting inside, just like Dana is on this thread. Dana would like support from people just like Dana's daughter would like support from her.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DoF said:


> And if you were in her shoes, you would do the same.
> 
> If not, you would be used.


Which pair of shoes? I can tell you what I would not do. Lie. Dissemble to avoid blame. I would look my child in the eye the FIRST time she blew off the conditions of living under my roof and say that was the last time. If it happens again, you are gone without aid. Right In The Eye. With my no I am not ****ing with you face on. The one I have worn since they were 2. Then the next time it happened, I would tell them that it is time to leave. If they would not, I would call the police and have them escorted from my home to the place of their choosing.

No I would not do the same. 

The other thing I would not do is tell you that while faced with the above that I had nothing to do with this situation coming about. That there is nothing to learn here. When it comes to doing the same, no. I am not so scared of my mistakes that I cannot accept them and thus learn from them.

No some of us would not do the same.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DoF said:


> OP did that
> 
> 
> 
> OP did that
> 
> 
> 
> This one is a little sketchy. There is a fine line between right and wrong on this.
> 
> Besides, how many of you ladies post here and ask "how do I get my husband to......."
> 
> Dana is ADVISING her daughter what she needs to do to get her life in order. This what loved ones do, they advice when loved one is in trouble.
> 
> Remember, she has been doing this for MANY YEARS and even provided help.


Yes, she has... what she doesn't need to do now is compare her to Hitler, Stalin, Moussolini, etc and write her off... those are not the same.


----------



## DanaS

DoF said:


> People are talking about empathy (or lack of from OP)......yet I see VERY little empathy from the very posters.
> 
> OP is in a really difficult situation in life.
> - Pregnant
> - used by her loved one
> - essentially lost her daughter and very little hope
> 
> Can we have little empathy for HER?
> 
> If there is ANYONE that needs a shoulder to cry on/support and empathy, it's Dana.


So true. Funny how many here have been calling out for me to show my daughter "empathy" when I sure as hell haven't gotten any, and I haven't done anything near as bad as my daughter. 

Thankfully my husband is supportive. I really don't want for him to be involved in this anymore than he has to be. But even my husband agrees counseling is unhelpful especially in this case. 

Do you all HONESTLY believe if I managed to meet her again and said "Oh, I'm so sorry for how I've treated you all your life, I am the worst mother in the world, please forgive me!" she's going to suddenly straighten up??


----------



## DoF

Blossom Leigh said:


> At this point it is trying to help *Dana* see her flaws and how she is contributing to this situation
> 
> There for she is proving your statement bolded above
> 
> She doesn't think she has a problem
> 
> THAT's the problem at hand at the moment
> 
> we are past the daughter at this point
> 
> Yes, because she refuses any culpability, you may be right that this thread is a wrap


She never asked for help for herself though. If she did, give her all the advice in the world.

Just putting myself in Dana's shoes here, I wouldn't be too happy when people start shifting blame onto me while dealing with this type of situation.

What she is dealing with is hard enough IMO. No need to take it further.

I'm SURE she can be a better person/mother. But let her ask for help herself if she needs it.

It's equivalent to me creating a thread and telling ALL the members that they are crappy mothers for "some reason or another".

Yes, we ALL are shiitty in some way or another. Common knowledge/common sense.


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## DoF

DanaS said:


> So true. Funny how many here have been calling out for me to show my daughter "empathy" when I sure as hell haven't gotten any, and I haven't done anything near as bad as my daughter.
> 
> Thankfully my husband is supportive. I really don't want for him to be involved in this anymore than he has to be. But even my husband agrees counseling is unhelpful especially in this case.
> 
> Do you all HONESTLY believe if I managed to meet her again and said "Oh, I'm so sorry for how I've treated you all your life, I am the worst mother in the world, please forgive me!" she's going to suddenly straighten up??


She will look at you and think you are WEAK and start thinking "what can I get out of her".

I think many members here have very little experience dealing with people like your daughter.


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## NobodySpecial

DanaS said:


> Well, I have always been one that believes nature>>>>>>nurture by a long shot.


You can "believe" whatever you like. That does not make it so. A wise person does not chose to believe what is most convenient but looks to what information is available to support what might actually be true.



> Heck, isn't a person that is legitimately ill; isn't their mental illness a result of genetics?


No. Many mental illness diagnoses are nothing more than a collection of symptoms grouped in like manners. There is yet not enough known about what mental illness is. If I slam my hand with a hammer, my injury is not genetic. The same thing seems to be similar for mental issues though no distinction has been made to my knowledge between mental illness and mental njury.



> I am sure there are many that believe the same, but most are too scared to really look at it due to the implications. Imagine what society would be like if it were indeed proven nature has a bigger effect on how someone turns out than nurture.


May that be your first PhD. But belief is not useful here since belief is simply choosing a preference where no information exists. Personally I think that implications are no more profound that the opposite. Think of all the people who would have to take responsibility for their actions?


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## jld

You need to show empathy. You don't have to agree with her views. But you must be the leader in empathy.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I think what people are trying to illustrate for Dana is how hard it is to take responsibility for the things we are doing wrong when inside we're feeling hurt and aggrieved.
> 
> Dana's daughter is hurting inside, just like Dana is on this thread. Dana would like support from people just like Dana's daughter would like support from her.



oh geeze Girl... that made me cry.... it IS hard

So, Dana I will be very honest with you right now...

I am in pain watching you make this mistake of hardening your heart towards your daughter... I understand her behavior makes that HARD... please rise above it and save yourself pain down the road. Just PAUSE work with her... lay down the extreme comparisons... gain skills.... for later. That is all I am saying.

I am NOT excusing your daughter.

I am sorry I have hurt you today.


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## NobodySpecial

DanaS said:


> So true. Funny how many here have been calling out for me to show my daughter "empathy" when I sure as hell haven't gotten any, and I haven't done anything near as bad as my daughter.


Is there ANYONE here besides jld, misguided, sweet dip that she is, doing this?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

DoF said:


> People are talking about empathy (or lack of from OP)......yet I see VERY little empathy from the very posters.
> 
> OP is in a really difficult situation in life.
> - Pregnant
> - used by her loved one
> - essentially lost her daughter and very little hope
> 
> Can we have little empathy for HER?
> 
> If there is ANYONE that needs a shoulder to cry on/support and empathy, it's Dana.


If her daughter was here she would be getting some firm kicks in the bum about getting a job and getting into therapy. She's not. Dana is and her own issues and attitudes are part of her problem. It doesn't do her any good to agree it's all her daughter's fault and to keep doing what she's doing. Even if 23DD never comes back, she has a new one coming and could learn from her mistakes.


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## bravenewworld

DanaS said:


> Well, I have always been one that believes nature>>>>>>nurture by a long shot. Heck, isn't a person that is legitimately ill; isn't their mental illness a result of genetics?


Some diseases are a direct result of genetics (down syndrome, cystic fibrosis, sickle cell anemia, etc.) 

However, these aren't the result of one parents genes but rather the combining/mutation of both parent's genes when the child is produced. 

Mental illnesses caused by chemical imbalances such as schizophrenia and severe depression can be inherited as certain mutations affect chemical pathways. However, it is not "passed down" from one parent and there is definitely no proof it contributes at all to primarily behavioral disorders such as narcissism or entitlement. 

Mental illness can be a result of genetics, but it's doubtful your daughters behaviors (narcissism, entitlement, prone to violence) stem from such and impossible they stem solely from the genetics of her father.


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## john117

jld said:


> There are some very strong, loving mother substitutes out there. Maybe not as many as are needed, unfortunately.



Let me tell y'all about it...


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## john117

bravenewworld said:


> Mental illness can be a result of genetics, but it's doubtful your daughters behaviors (narcissism, entitlement, prone to violence) stem from such and impossible they stem solely from the genetics of her father.



I have two daughters in college. The older looks like her mom - Asian - and took all my personality traits, practical skills, ADHD, hobbies... The younger looks like me - European - and took her mom's personality traits, snappy attitude, hobbies etc. I raised both girls. 

Nature has a good sense of humor


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## Blondilocks

All of this bickering is senseless since the OP's hormones are playing havoc and when the little one arrives things may look very different to her. I don't know what everyone else is going to use for an excuse.

This is the situation today. Not next week or next month. Who knows? Maybe the 23 year old will take one look at baby sis and fall madly in love with her. Stranger things have happened.

But, stop beating up on the pregnant lady! There's laws against that.


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## DanaS

Blondilocks said:


> All of this bickering is senseless since the OP's hormones are playing havoc and when the little one arrives things may look very different to her. I don't know what everyone else is going to use for an excuse.
> 
> This is the situation today. Not next week or next month. Who knows? Maybe the 23 year old will take one look at baby sis and fall madly in love with her. Stranger things have happened.
> 
> But, stop beating up on the pregnant lady! There's laws against that.


Thank you! Very wise words.


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## EleGirl

DanaS said:


> No, she just has always said those kinds of things about him and me too. Of course I am hurt by it, I'd be just as hurt if I were married to a same-age man and she started talking bad about him for whatever reason.
> 
> I think people are looking WAY to much into this. Why does it matter why she feels the way she does when she acts so horribly? I guess Mussolini and his wife should've been just given therapy after they were caught and asked about their feelings. Please.....


Comparing your daughter to Mussolini, Stalin and Hitler is beyond ridiculous. These men were mass murderers. Your daughter is a 23 year old who is acting out some and who seems to be immature. This is very different from mass murder. Don't you think?


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## EleGirl

DanaS said:


> Yes it is, traits like extreme narcissism, violent/dangerous behavior, hyper entitlement are mostly genetic. My daughter is the way she is because of bad genes, it's not a coincidence if you knew my ex and my daughter you'd think personality wise they were spitting images of each other.


It's not completely known what happens such that a person ends up with these sorts of traits. however it's believed that they are caused by different things in different people.

Some people have a biological vulnerability. For others it's social interactions with early caregivers, and psychological factors that involve temperament. There are studies that suggest that a gene (or genes) for narcissism can be inherited but that a person also needs the “right” environment for narcissism to be manifested. 

There are scant studies that look specifically at whether narcissism is genetic, although many theories as to the cause including trauma or abuse in early childhood, overindulgent parenting, genetic predilection toward NPD and narcissistic parenting.

It is more likely that your daughter's environment growing up lead to her behavior and/or mental health issues (if she has any) than genetics.


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## EleGirl

DanaS said:


> Well, I have always been one that believes nature>>>>>>nurture by a long shot. Heck, isn't a person that is legitimately ill; isn't their mental illness a result of genetics?


Does your ex have some mental illness that has been diagnosed? Or are you assuming that he has a mental illness?

It's not clear if your daughter has some kind of mental illness or if she has learned bad behavior, or she's acting out because of whatever is going on in her life.

It is true that some mental illness does seem to run in some families. But it's also true that certain environmental situations can lead a person to develop mental illnesses.



DanaS said:


> I am sure there are many that believe the same, but most are too scared to really look at it due to the implications. Imagine what society would be like if it were indeed proven nature has a bigger effect on how someone turns out than nurture.


both play a part in how a person turns out.

The big issue is how do we treat those who have mental illness and/or behavior issues? Do we throw them on the street?

From what you have said, your daughter has been acting out from an early age. And you did nothing to address it. So what you have now is the results of not getting her help.


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## AVR1962

DanaS said:


> Hi, sorry for not posting any updates. I have been busy with work and other things. A few days ago I did manage to get in touch with my daughter and she agreed to meet me at a diner.
> 
> I told her how I do love her and want the best for her but I can't deal with the way she acts. She went on about how I am being inconsiderate of her feelings and I should never have gotten with my husband. She went on and on about how she hates him and saying mean and nasty things.
> 
> I told her that was none of her business and irrelevant to what's going on. I asked her about how her situation is living with an ex and she said "I hate it, it's your fault for driving me to live with him". I told her no, her attitude is. If she wants to work things out and come back home under very strict and specified conditions I will alow it. She declined saying she doesn't want to live in such a "sick" environment.
> 
> We only talked about 15 minutes but the I just don't get the hatred my daughter has on my husband. And frankly, I am tired of dealing with her, if she wants to wisen up, and show she is applying at jobs or gets one I will consider letting her move back. I am 7 months pregnant now and honestly much more concerned about my new child and husband than my daughter's feelings.
> 
> Maybe some will say I am being horrible, but I just can't tolerate my daughter right now and until she grows up (assuming she ever does) I am tired of dealing with her.


Whoa wait, you told your daughter that her feelings were none of her business. She expressed how she feels about your husband, she is entitled to her feelings. Do not deny her that and tell her it is none of her business. As long as you think this is the way to treat your daughter you will never repair what is between you. You can love your husband but she does not have to.

My first husband and I divorced, he was a cheat and I ended up having very hard feelings for this man but my children had a right to love their father and they had the right to decided what kind of relationship they wanted with him. I am also a stepmom who raised 2 stepsons who did not like me much at all. Their issue I feel was more about their parents' divorce than it was about me. Think about that, really give that some thought.

If anyone needs to wisen up is it you. I mentioned previous that one of my daughters was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder and she blamed me for the divorce with her dad even though he filed and he was the one cheating. I felt like you have mentioned here that she needed to grow up and get a clue. What I didn't see that I denied her was her own feelings, he right to speak her mind and do as she pleased and me understand and support her regardless. Once I realized this it was like a brick to the head and I could see that I had not been there for her. I apologized to her and I told her she had every right to speak her mind and have me there as her support and I apologized for failing her. We are great today.

Your daughter has her life to live. She is going to make mistakes but she needs you at her back to support her. Not someone to pass judgement and expect her to meet your needs or do as you feel is right for her. Her life is hers and she has to live it the way she feels it best fro her. Perhaps she will learn that she made a mistake but that is her realization, not yours. You should be there to help her and support her. when I say help, I do not mean by telling her what to do.


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## Blossom Leigh

Here is a visual to what a lot of people are saying OP. Dr Phil confronts two destructive Narcissists masterfully with boundaries and compassion. When they stop listening, boundary. He ignores a lot of the blustering, but then in targeted compassion unearths the pain behind their acting out. He offers additional help, which I'm sure comes with expectations to do the work. Definitely worth the time to watch it.

Dr Phil Show Confronting Narcissistic Personalities 11 07 2013: http://youtu.be/aPUXTY6LDgQ


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## NextTimeAround

Starstarfish said:


> What indicates to you the daughter is willing to try? What defines trying?
> 
> It just seems like this topic is encouraging all kinds of run over emotions from people about bad childhoods, psycho moms, and a "rainbow connection" kind of feeling about life and how to fix people.
> 
> Also, if all people who behave badly can't help it and are only products of their upbringing, why do we put people in jail? Should we just love them out of it? Have people here called their mother lately to blame her for their relationship problems because of the poor example she obviously set? Or indeed, some choices not just mindless reproductions of your upbringing?


Sorry, but in western society , we are still fooled into the beliefs that 1) our parents love us and want the best for us: 2) they know best in all areas of life.

For whatever reason, some people in their early years buy out of this nonsense early on. There are others that still try to stick it out and make sense of it.

DanaS in this thread (and maybe others) has been very coy about the early relationship that she has had with her daughter; she says nothing about the bio father that Dana CHOSE to have a baby with......... How innocent can we believe her to be inthis fiasco?


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## NextTimeAround

DanaS said:


> *She just is mean, condescending, treats others as if they are beneath her, throws parties etc.
> *
> Any woman that thinks she can get through to my daughter is welcome to try. I, however, am through dealing with this!


It would be interesting to find out how my mother decsribes me to others. To my face, she tells me I'm stupid and my hair is always a mess. And she has quite often made veiled remarks about how my in laws (past and present) probably don't want a black person ion their family.

I have had to learn communication strategies to shut that talk down. Sad that I have to talk as if I am dealing with situations in a corporate structure.

But still, I can't control what my mother says about me when I am not around.

Just as DanaS's daughter cannot control (and fact check) what DanaS says about her when she is not around when DanaS goes in spew mode........


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## NextTimeAround

Blondilocks said:


> " I do not have much* leverage*."
> 
> It's all in the knees, my dear.


Err, that could go a lot of different ways..... especially if she's looking for ways to make money to support herself (now that her and her stepfather have decided to cut her off).

This is the world that you parents have created for your children. You have imagination about careers or other ways to find a livelihood and so you shunt your kids into expensive university education (even a state university education will get expensive), and then complain about how much money they are throwing at their unworthy children.

Knowing what I know now, after highschool, I should have immediately gone to Europe and be an au pair. That would have been the better most cost effective way to become fluent in a language. But knowing how controlling my parents are (my father liked using money to get us to do what he wanted and then say, you chose it), both my parents would have been on that expensive phone (it was not cheap making trans Atlantic calls in the pre digital age) to tell me to "come home" and then would have complained about how expensive the phone calls were.

DanaS, did you suggest to your daughter some programs at the local community college?


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## NextTimeAround

DanaS said:


> Well then you're more than welcome to shell out the doh and take her if you want. I'm not going anywhere near a therapist or counselor, to me, therapy is a mega-industry, and therapists make lots of money exploiting our pains and self-doubts. I also feel they use the power of suggestion to make sure they keep the patient. They are a business and need repeat customers; I just don't trust them.



Well, we agree on something.

Funny though, my mother has told me that I need therapy (but also that she would not pay for it). My mother, OTOH, is perfectly fine and doesn't need it (according to her).

My mother does pay for it for my younger sister. She also has to co-sign on all my sister's bank accounts and her rental agreement.


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## DanaS

So in case anyone still cares I thought I'd post an update. My daughter FINALLY got a job (still living with her ex) being a cart pusher (the ones that coral the carts) at wal mart and she can't stop telling me how much she hates it, she says the pay sucks, it's real hot and she is constantly sweating and can't stand her co-workers, but also stated she is the only competent one there and everyone else is stupid. Ughh. 

I told her it may suck but she has to stick with it and hopefully get a place of her own. I suggested she come see her new baby sister but in her own words "She's no sister of mine, I don't want to see it". 

I hope to god she sticks with this job. I wish things were better but what can I do?


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## NextTimeAround

DanaS said:


> So in case anyone still cares I thought I'd post an update. My daughter FINALLY got a job (still living with her ex) being a cart pusher (the ones that coral the carts) at wal mart and she can't stop telling me how much she hates it, she says the pay sucks, it's real hot and she is constantly sweating and can't stand her co-workers, *but also stated she is the only competent one there and everyone else is stupid. Ughh. *
> 
> I told her it may suck but she has to stick with it and hopefully get a place of her own. I suggested she come see her new baby sister but in her own words "She's no sister of mine, I don't want to see it".
> 
> I hope to god she sticks with this job. I wish things were better but what can I do?


We'll see if she is the first to be promoted then.


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## EnjoliWoman

Wow she sounds just like my ex. Who was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. For which there is no cure or effective therapy.


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## Anonymous07

EnjoliWoman said:


> Wow she sounds just like my ex. Who was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. For which there is no cure or effective therapy.


Although there really are a lot of incompetent people that work in retail. I deal with them often(work in retail myself) and it's annoying. Retail sucks. Time will tell what happens with her job.


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## samyeagar

DanaS said:


> THANK YOU!!! *You, along with DoF seem to fully understand what's going on*. How my daughter turned out is not my fault, I have nothing to BE sad about. I raised her the best way I knew how, but my ex ended up as the biggest influence and she would spend all her time doing things with him. If my daughter does have some kind of mental disorder then I guess my ex husband must have the same kind.
> 
> I guess according to most here even despite the horrible way my ex husband treated me (being verbally/emotionally and a few times physically abusive) I should've just accepted that I was culpable for the horrible way he treated me and I should have "just shown some empathy" and try to get him into counseling where he can just "talk his anger/rage/narcissism away", give me a break!


Count me as one who understands all too well what you are going through...as the husband of a woman who's son is the problem. She has been the apologist for him and his behavior. She has gone down the road many others here have criticized you for not going down...appeasement, talking it out, therapy, setting boundaries, giving ultimatums, demanding respect. Every one of those things failed, and failed miserably because her son simply does not care, had no intention of working to make things better, had no desire to do anything but to keep using and disrespecting, counting on the fact that his mother would continue to give until it killed her...as it seems some here are suggesting.

Regardless of the reasons why, there are just some people who are broken, and once they are an adult, no matter how badly a parent wants to help, in many regards, they are unable to because the law says they can't force anything. The child cannot be compelled to do anything that they don't want to do.

All parents make mistakes, as do all children, but it is not right for a parent to have to suffer the consequences for the rest of their life...especially at the hands of their own children.


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## samyeagar

EnjoliWoman said:


> Wow she sounds just like my ex. Who was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. For which there is no cure or effective therapy.


This a thousand times over...I saw my diagnosed NPD ex wife in her description of the daughter, and it turned my stomach as recognition set in.

Dana, this has been recognized by two people here who have first hand experience with NPD. Certainly not diagnosing it, but...

The advice and statements from most people here are coming from a perspective that you are dealing with a relatively normal person. You may not be, and I highly urge you to learn about true NPD, and strategies for dealing with it. There is no cure, and no way to help the person with it. The only thing you can do is learn strategies to shield yourself from the worst of the damage.

Most people can not even begin to comprehend what it is like to be involved with a true Narc. It is beyond all comprehension and is absolutely insidious, and advice given to deal with a non narc, at the very best will fail, but is more likely to cause even more damage when applied to a true narc.


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## samyeagar

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> No.* I would get my child help. In fact I would have long before 23, but she would be in therapy and career counselling. She would be made to be sending off applications to jobs daily. *I would be understanding of a little young adult rebellion due to the new relationship but have firm boundaries at the same time. *She may need to move out if the situation became too toxic* but I'd never just shrug it off and say oh well, I have a new one coming. Hope this one turns out better.
> And I would never hate my kids. Never think of them as a lost cause, especially not for these kinds of issues.


And how, prey tell, would you accomplish that with a legal adult, a person you have no authority over...how would you get them to do that if they did not want to, and refused to comply?

I'm not picking specifically on you, but rather the entire premise of that. Lot's of people saying what they would make the child do, but seem to be missing one thing...in the eyes of the law, this is not a child. No matter how badly you want, no matter how many times you say it, you CAN'T make them do anything. It is entirely up to them. Many here also seem to be assuming a certain level of respect from child to parent, and it is clear that it does not exist here, and not just from the child to the parent, but from the child to ANYONE. That to me suggests that the crux of this lies at the feet of the child and not the parent. The child has no respect for ANYONE, therefore she is not receptive to anyone helping her.

As to the moving out...people seem to think that it would be as simple as having a calm conversation, explaining that the child really needs to leave, and the child saying ok, and then leaving. It doesn't work that way with people like this. It would most likely end up having to get a legal eviction through the courts to have the child removed.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Does her mood cycle? Emotionally over react? Lots of relationships? Is she hypersexual? Prone to risky behavior? She's clearly abusive to others and manipulative. How does she speak of people she likes? Are they amazing?

Where you any of these things when you were in your teens and twenties? Where'd you meet the 28 year old hubby?

Just pieces to the puzzle.


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## samyeagar

AVR1962 said:


> Whoa wait, *you told your daughter that her feelings were none of her business. She expressed how she feels about your husband, she is entitled to her feelings.* Do not deny her that and tell her it is none of her business. As long as you think this is the way to treat your daughter you will never repair what is between you. You can love your husband but she does not have to.
> 
> My first husband and I divorced, he was a cheat and I ended up having very hard feelings for this man but my children had a right to love their father and they had the right to decided what kind of relationship they wanted with him. I am also a stepmom who raised 2 stepsons who did not like me much at all. Their issue I feel was more about their parents' divorce than it was about me. Think about that, really give that some thought.
> 
> If anyone needs to wisen up is it you. I mentioned previous that one of my daughters was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder and she blamed me for the divorce with her dad even though he filed and he was the one cheating. I felt like you have mentioned here that she needed to grow up and get a clue. What I didn't see that I denied her was her own feelings, he right to speak her mind and do as she pleased and me understand and support her regardless. Once I realized this it was like a brick to the head and I could see that I had not been there for her. I apologized to her and I told her she had every right to speak her mind and have me there as her support and I apologized for failing her. We are great today.
> 
> Your daughter has her life to live. She is going to make mistakes but she needs you at her back to support her. Not someone to pass judgement and expect her to meet your needs or do as you feel is right for her. Her life is hers and she has to live it the way she feels it best fro her. Perhaps she will learn that she made a mistake but that is her realization, not yours. You should be there to help her and support her. when I say help, I do not mean by telling her what to do.


She is entitled to her feelings, but is not entitled to be rude and nasty in expressing them. The daughter is an adult and should be expected to behave as such.

As far as it goes, who Dana chose to marry and why she chose to do it is absolutely none of the adult daughters business, and the daughter should show some basic human dignity and restraint in dealing with it.


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## DanaS

Just thought I'd share a little update. Earlier today I went to the wal mart with Cadance (my daughter) in tow to get some things and saw my daughter pushing a bunch of carts and boy she was sweating from head to toe, granted the others doing it were too; definitely not an easy job. 

Anyway I went up to talk to her (no real chit chat since she was working but thought I'd at least say something) and I told her I am glad she's working and no matter how hard it is to keep it up. I showed her Cadance and asked her if she'd like to hold her new baby sister but just said "I don't want to have anything to do with it". She really didn't say much, I did tell her she can call me if she wants to ever talk. 

Despite her horrible behavior it is nice seeing her finally bust her *** working even if it is real low pay.


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## Satya

Dana, JMO but I think your daughter has made it clear that she doesn't want to see your new baby. I wouldn't keep persisting down this path. You want her to be independent, which I appreciate, but you need to respect her boundaries as well.

Just keep the communication lines open with her and if she cares to get to know her sister, she will let you know.


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## NextTimeAround

Satya said:


> Dana, JMO but I think your daughter has made it clear that she doesn't want to see your new baby. *I wouldn't keep persisting down this path. *You want her to be independent, which I appreciate, but you need to respect her boundaries as well.
> 
> Just keep the communication lines open with her and if she cares to get to know her sister, she will let you know.


or it could be viewed as baiting her.


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## jld

I really wish you would make a repair attempt at this relationship, Dana. Particularly by giving her a no expectations in return apology.


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## Starstarfish

jld said:


> I really wish you would make a repair attempt at this relationship, Dana. Particularly by giving her a no expectations in return apology.


What does a repair attempt look like in this case? And what is a no expectations apology?


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## Anonymous07

Satya said:


> Dana, JMO but I think *your daughter has made it clear that she doesn't want to see your new baby*. I wouldn't keep persisting down this path. You want her to be independent, which I appreciate, but you need to respect her boundaries as well.


:iagree:

I think she has been very clear that she doesn't want anything to do with her replacement aka your new baby. I would let it go and stop pushing it. She's not interested. 

I still think it would be a good idea to apologize for how you handled the situation, in tricking her and dropping her at a homeless shelter. If you see her there again, you can sincerely apologize and then walk away. Don't expect a response or anything in return at that point. Just say what you need to and let her heal in her own time. Maybe then your relationship can start to get better.


----------

