# Anybody here anything this crazy?



## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

Wish I found this site a few months ago. Could have saved me some missteps with my wife.

I've been separated for six months, soon to be divorced.

My wife wants me back, but won't take me back until after we're divorced. I know, sounds crazy.

She's told this to friends, and psychologists.

She tells me she wants me to change, and thinks this is the only way to get me to take it seriously.

It took a lot of damage to get where we are. I used to drink too much. She finally put her foot down and told me I had to quit or she would leave.

Not too long after, we started looking to buy a house, and things got out of control. Couldn't agree on price, and couldn't agree on any house. Fought about it for three months. It was really stupid. I secretly started grabbing beer's on the way home from work. We started in on marriage counseling...but it was already too late.

She caught me drinking and freaked out. Filed legal separation and kicked me out of the house. I joined a chemical dependancy program (stopped drinking for six months now).

She originally said she would buy her own house, and I could move in (and pay rent). Then she got cold feet on buying by herself....we live in a very expensive area.

So she needs my income. But she wants me to "change". So I am going to therapy. She comes sometimes.

It's tense. Separations suck.....and I'll be divorced next week (bizarre, I know).

She came last week and we talked with the therapist about how we get back together. He says he thinks we should give it another year, and gradually increase contact.

She's going to therapy as well.

We've got two kids.

Anyways, anybody ever hear of this type of situation? I love her, and love my kids, but this entire thing sucks. 

My psychologist tells me if I love her, just go along with it and we'll be back together at the end.

But it really sucks.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

Gives me some hope.

I still love her, and we have kids together. So that's a good reason.

We also (believe it or not) work together. We are research scientists and interract on a daily basis. That's probably the worst part. Only a few people at work know that we've split up for now.

Neither of us have dated. We've only slept together once since the separation started (about three weeks ago).

I'm not ready to date anyone. I'm still a mess, and I'm afraid that it would cause another barrier for getting back together.

Anyway, what a mess.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

So, Pandakiss:

Who initiated the separation? You or your husband? Did you do a divorce as well (as my wife is doing to me)?

What was the cause of the separation?

Did you have kids, and how did you handle the interaction? We're six months into this and it has started getting tense.

She's starting to wonder if we ever made sense.....although I'd say the first 11 years were pretty good, the prior two to the last year were mediocre and the last year was, frankly, terrible.

How do we handle this? Do I just stay away from her and not talk to her so that feelings die down?


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## mariem1967 (Dec 1, 2010)

You can divorce and start just living together again. There are people living together and are not married. Maybe like that you'll be more relaxed and maybe it'll work.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

That makes sense to me, too.

We do have a problem.....during that three months that we argued while looking at houses, we argued SO MUCH that if we get around each other, we fall back into that trap.

We both remember what we had, so we'd like to get back together. But it doesn't seem possible now.

My wife (ex-wife?) started venting about me in a session with my therapist last week.....he was surprised and looked at us and said "one thing is clear...you two are oil and water RIGHT NOW. I don't know why you want to get back together, but it is clear that you both do. It is going to take more time apart than you think before you can get back together".

That upset both my wife and I. I asked how long he thought it would take...he said we should expect about a year before we can reconcile. He says we need to stay apart until the feelings die down, and then slowly build up a new relationship.

It's hard. Both of us want it, but don't can't make it work right now.

I never believed we could be such slaves to our emotions..both good and bad ones.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

Well my wife (ex-wife) is going with me to another session on Wens.

I'm hoping he gives some more guidelines on how we should interact while we are separated.

She's wants to talk to him about how I "need to change". She's got some work to do, too.

I thought about dating, so I put an on-line add on Craigslist.org. I was surprised to get several responses rapidly. Looking at them, they were all from prostitutes, apparently.

It looks like a complicated world out there.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

My wife told me today that she "wasn't waiting for me any more to change".

That seems to mean that she is back to buying a house by herself again.

She does say she see's that I am trying, but she says she wants to be settled in a house, now. If things work out, I can move in.

I think this is actually good. It'll keep her busy.

We fought so much before about buying a house that she "lost trust" in me. This was her original plan for taking me back...she wouldn't have to trust me enough to buy a house in both of her name.

So I'm for it.

I'm trying to stay away from her and work on myself. It is hard for me to contemplate, but I am considering flying across the country to spend the holidays with my parents and siblings and without my children......I feel very guily about it, but it may help me to get my head on straight.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

She went to counseling again with me today. Talked to my therapist privately at first. Then he told me that my wife told him to tell me that I should accept that we were divorced, and that the chances for getting back together were small. That we were divorced NOW and should live like we were divorced. That she needed to be alone NOW. THat she would decide later if she wanted to be with me.

I asked if we should date. My therapist said that was a risk that my wife took by choosing this process. That it was up to each of us to do what we thought best, but any real attachments lowered the chances of getting together in the future. And that each of us should be very careful to keep any dating private.

Whole thing is crazy. Last week she sat there in the same office while we discussed how it would take a year to resolve our differences. Now she says it is unlikely.

Oh well. I can't control her.

I talked to my therapist afterwards. He said she is not closing the door entirely even now. But that I really have to move on so that she'll find me attractive.


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## rome2012 (Sep 10, 2010)

sad_dad said:


> She went to counseling again with me today. Talked to my therapist privately at first. Then he told me that my wife told him to tell me that I should accept that we were divorced, and that the chances for getting back together were small. That we were divorced NOW and should live like we were divorced. That she needed to be alone NOW. THat she would decide later if she wanted to be with me.
> 
> I asked if we should date. My therapist said that was a risk that my wife took by choosing this process. That it was up to each of us to do what we thought best, but any real attachments lowered the chances of getting together in the future. And that each of us should be very careful to keep any dating private.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to say but that sounds so much like the crap that my husband would tell me the last 4 months.....

Always trying to tell me everything will be ok, there might be a chance for us, having passionate sex with me, cuddling me at night etc., but in reality he only did this so I wouldn't interfere with his divorce !!!!!

I know that now !!!!!!

Anyway....I would let her go and if you still have love left for her after, I would try to win her love back, by showing her the guy she fell in love with in the first place....

I myself will do the same....I will work my hardest on becoming the person he fell in love with in the first place or even better...successful with my job, sexy skinny again, well put together and all.....

*BUT*

I will *not* wait for him !!!!!!! 

I don't know how long it will take for him to realize I wasn't all that bad and he's made a huge mistake.....days, weeks, months, years....

I will work on myself and become this awesome person I know I have in me.....whether we'll be together again ever.....or not.....

All the best for you !!!!!!!!


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

I hear you. Most of our friends are still amazed by the situation.

I have to say, I talked with a friend honestly about all the things that happened leading up to our separation and I think our chances are actually small.....some financial mistakes I made, some broken promises and some pretty ugly arguments.

Hard to overcome.

On the work side, we are both miserable since our offices are only about fifty feet away. My boss has talked to me about transerring her out (I am more senior and critical), but I've been putting it off.

Unfortunately, I realize for the last six months I've been sheltering her from the divorce to make her feel better.

But it is real, and it is time to stop sheltering her. I should have done this in the beginning. Let her realize that you LOSE in a divorce, not GAIN.

She called me up today to tell me that someone bothered her at work today and she was thinking about switching jobs (I don't know where she would go). Told me that she wanted to CHANGE EVERYTHING IN HER LIFE.

She keeps doing these big changes, but doesn't seem to be getting any happier. 

I guess that would mean that she would have to look at herself. It's tough for some people.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks.

Right now any sort of relationship is out of the question. The divorce finishes this week, and both of us are hurt and tense.

She told me the reason that she wanted to back out of "trying to put things together after the divorce" is because she had a nightmare about us on Friday night and woke up with a migraine headache.

There is love, but there is a lot of damage, too. I think the chances of us working out are pretty small.

For right now, we are going "no contact" except for with the kids and what little we have to have at work.

I'll give that a few months.

Since she's decided it won't work between us, she is pretty much freaking out. She is complaining about money and all these other things.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Apparently you are an alcoholic and she drew a line, which you then crossed. She IS terrified by the thought of being alone--she'd prefer marriage to a stable man--but she has chosen "alone" over the possibility of a reformed you. Either she doesn't trust you (no surpise there, right?) OR she's realized she simply cannot imagine loving you as a husband after all the damage you've done.

I do sympathize with you and applaud your commitment to change. Now, if you understand AA, you know you have to "make amends" for the damage you did, at least to the best of your ability.

Support your ex and kids through this transition. If you can afford to invest in her house (as part of the downpayment, to reduce her mortgage), you could ease a bit of her financial burden. Think about what you could do to ease this transition for her as your way of making amends. Do not do anything that puts your recovery at risk--like, overcommitting financially (if money woes have triggered drinking in the past), or like too much involvement, if the thought of what you've lost will interfere with your recovery.

But do what you can and be a good man. You never know what the future holds. She might come back to you eventually (don't hold your breath) or, more likely, another woman will see that you took responsibility for making amends and will admire you for admitting your errors and changing. A good woman will never hold it against you if you have committed resources to supporting the family you injured with your drinking. Good luck and God bless; you sound like a good guy and I wish you the best.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

Good guess, I am an alchoholic, albeit an extremely high functioning one. Sober for six months now. Going through a chemical dependency program and AA.

I didn't believe that I had a problem until I agreed to quit last year. When we started fighting over the house, I lasted for a few months, but then couldn't handle the pressure and started drinking again.....she figured it out and threw me out. By then I knew that I had a problem.

My wife was a drinker, too and quit at the same time. But she managed to quit on her own.

In the financial split, I gave her an extra 90-K to help with a house downpayment.

I'm making amends where I can.

The papers came through today. We talked for a half an hour. It was actually pretty nice. She was pretty honest and open. 

She does still want to get back together (she's all over the place every day).....she says she simply wants me to continue being sober, and to be predictable and nice for an extended period of time.

She's been talking to several divorced women (who actually know me), and they are telling her that if their ex had been willing to admit their mistakes and change their behavior, that they would have taken them back.

They're also telling her how hard it is to meet someone decent as a 40-year old single mom who's mother lives with her...anybody good is married at this age.

I didn't realize I had a drinking problem until the damage was done.....so I am doing my best to put it right. I have a very good salary, never got into any trouble. 

It takes time to re-build the trust. 

Today I have hope, however. I put it at 50-50.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

You sound pretty darn smart in a lot of different ways (mulitple intelligences). How wonderfully you are handling things. A lot of people would use the divorce as an excuse to start drinking again. Congratulations on your sobriety and may God help you stay sober.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

I'm doing my best. I guess I wasn't smart enough to keep from digging my way into the hole that I am in now......I am getting help from a lot of people to dig my way out.

We'll see how it goes.


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## DjF (Nov 24, 2010)

Sounds like you and I are pretty much in the same hole...drinking to escape...drinking to avoid further conflicts...I've been clean for 3 months, so far on my own...no talk of divorice yet, but I know one major slip up and we will be...

My wife moved out right begore Thanksgiving and I was a mess, coulda used a beer, a case of beers right then, but I worked through it...it gets tougher everyday not to drink...I see my progress, others see it but since my wife and I see each other so little, she doesn't have much faith in me...yet...I'll be patient, she is worth it...

I would guess I'd put our chances at getting back together as pretty good...she says she wants to, she wants to love me again...and I believe her...


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

Well, keep working on it.

My wife is still all over the place. Yesterday she is telling me to please "hurry up and change" because she knows it will be hard to find someone else. She wants me to be predictable, something which was lacking while I was drinking and she still doesn't believe in.

Today she is telling me to make sure that in my next relationship I find a woman that doesn't drink so that I can stay sober.

I think she is just as unpredictable as I am!


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

I told her that I didn't like her discussing my "next relationship" and she told me that I should stop analyzing everything. That she doesn't like to talk to me now because every conversation gets scrutinized for clues about whether or not we will get back together.

She just wants to keep the conversation on kids for right now.

I am so sick and tired of this. Yesterday she is telling me to "hurry up and change", so she can talk about anything that she wants to. But I am not allowed to do the same.

I guess I am just too impatient.

Of course, we are really divorced right now. I guess I have to accept the reality. If she wants me back, she knows where to find me.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

Just had christmas eve with the kids and my ex.

Nice time with the kids. They love it when we all get together.

We've been doing more stuff together the last month or so as the divorce is finalized.....she always said she wanted to put family stuff on hold until the paperwork was final.

It was comfortable being home, but not much closeness between her and me tonight. It was very "professional" between us. I gave her her space. Got some good laughs out of her.

I'm leaving for a week tomorrow. We gave each other a hug on the way out. She said "don't do anything your're not supposed to", meaning don't drink. I gave her a funny look as a joke (implying fool around with other women). She looked back at me and said: "I don't care about that".

Cold. Two days ago she is talking about getting back together in the future, but she doesn't care if I sleep with other people.

I'm going for a week. Let's see if she comes to meet with my therapist at the next appointment.

Too friggin' weird. I wish she would just say "move on, leave me alone".

I tell her that I want to "change for her", and she says "OK, lets see if you can do it".

I don't think she has any love left.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

One thing is for sure: she has no trust yet. It will take a long time to repair the damage, and you can wait it out, hoping for the best and trying to be the man you want to be--for yourself and kids, first and foremost, and if she finds that attractive, great. If not, it's still a "win" for you in that you will recover your sobriety and re-establish a good relationship with your kids. Of course you will want time to move faster, and I think feeling impatient under the circumstances is pretty normal, but the real question is, what will you do about it? Are you busy enough to feel good about how you are living right now--the balance you have in work/family/recovery/play? Have you set some goals (other than staying sober, the first and most important one, that you take one day at a time) for your future, like increasing your education or maybe a fitness goal? Having something tangible to measure progress with--in addition to crossing off each sober day on your calendar (mental or physical)--might help with the waiting. I don't really know; just throwing out ideas here. 

But, what you have already done is something to take pride in, because it is so difficult. You must be reaching deep inside yourself and finding a source of strength. I hope you find that is a good feeling. So many people fail to find that strength, or can't even bring themselves to look for it. Don't forget to celebrate the success you have found already. God bless, and Merry Christmas!


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

She says she does not have any trust for me. She is very open about it.

I've been having a blast with my kids, they say "your're the one that does fun stuff with us now". 

So our relationship has done very well.

I've also taken over all of the kids doctor appointents and that sort of thing from my ex-wife, and started being the one that shows up for school for them. She's focused on her career right now, and I am trying to prove that I can contribute to my family.

I try to stay away from her and keep my life busy. I've been going hiking and biking a lot. And going to meetings and meeting new male friends that are sober to fill my life up.

I've got a PhD, so I don't need any more education.

She is very aware of the situation that she is in. She knows that it will be hard to meet someone new. She also has her mother living with us....it is hard to find somone good as a 40-year old mother with two kids and a mother-in-law (I lived with her mother for 7 of the last 11 years).

But she doesn't want to be with me right now.

Thank you for your blessings. It is hard to be in what you feel is your "home" with your kids and the person you regard as your life partner on christmas eve and not feel loved. 

I'm back in the very small, crappy house that I've rented only two blocks away so that I can be close to my kids. It is still tough for me to bring my belongings from her house to my house.....I feel that it all belongs with my family.

I have been sober for six and a half months now. Going to spend a week with my parents (both alchoholics) and my brother (also an alcoholic). My sister doesn't drink. I've told them that if I feel any pressure to drink that I will have to leave.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Good for you, SD, to have an "escape plan" for the week with your family. I have a PHD but am back in school for a 2nd master's related to the work I do now, as a teacher. Obviously, I cannot get enough of school!


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

I loved school, too. But decided I'd had enough of exams and homeworks.

I am a research scientist, so I write academic papers and that sort of thing to fill up my extra time.

The biggest thing that I am trying to do is increase my circle of friends and activities to fill my life up.

I still have hope for patching things up with my wife.....I don't know what the chances actually are, I guess. She's pretty unhappy with where she is right now but does not see me as a viable option for the time being.

I've talked to a few women, but mostly just for converation and a woman's perspective. The idea of really dating kind of scares me.

Talked to a few divorced women with kids.....seems like dating is easily possible, but they seem to have the same baggage and their kids are not my own.

So I feel like I might as well spend a year or two working on myself and being the best dad I can be. Don't see that there are two many other viable plans.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

OK, talked to my wife this morning.

She apologized for being cold last night. Says it was due to my comments yesterday morning (I asked her not to talk about my next relationship).

She has a lot of anxiety towards me due to the trust that I burned over the last year...she is in therapy and doing meditation.

We agreed to continue to try and minimize contact while she deals with her anxiety and I continue my recovery. I am to try and help the family as I can.

She's not making any promises, but she is loyal and she does want to be with me. We just can't right now.

Anyway, I am off to catch my flight. I'll be back in a week. Give both of us time to clear our heads.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

Just got back.

It was great seeing my family for a few days. Got a lot of support. Had a few long distance phone calls with my ex-wife....she is pleased with my progress with not drinking and says "let's see what happens in a year or so". 

It drives me crazy that she thinks it makes sense to divorce me, wait 18 months, and then take me back.

However, a year is a long time to wait and our kids are growing. It's hard to put my life on hold for a year to wait and see what she thinks.

I don't know how literal the year is, or if I am simply an afterthought. Or if she is stringing me on. Of course, I don't know why she would string me along after the divorce is final.

Crazy.

A couple more months of this, and I'll have to just move on.


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## rome2012 (Sep 10, 2010)

sad_dad said:


> Just got back.
> 
> It was great seeing my family for a few days. Got a lot of support. Had a few long distance phone calls with my ex-wife....she is pleased with my progress with not drinking and says "let's see what happens in a year or so".
> 
> ...


My husband has done something similar to me....

He asked for a divorce on Labor Day weekend and I've fought for our marriage....working on myself......and he gave me hope by saying things like "Yes, if I change my mind I know where you'll be".....he made me believe that there's a chance for us if I just prove I'm changing....

After 3-4 months of stringing me along he kept pushing me to sign the divorce decree and (out of anger) I did....on his birthday....

Now....ever since that he seems really depressed most of the time, is very nice and sweet with me.....just like he used to be.....:scratchhead:

He might have regrets about it now and it kills me that we had to get divorced before he realizes that I'm not so bad after all and does still love me (somewhat).....

But then again....I might be reading the signs totally wrong....after all, he's changed into a man I never thought he could be.....

All I can do now is live day to day (we still live together) and observe......

Best of luck to you !!!!!!!!!!


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

Thanks, Rome.

Are you divorced, or is the paperwork just started?

My wife and I already butted heads a bit today. We're both uncomfortable around each other now due to the hurt feelings from the divorce.

I told her when she started the process that it would be hard to get together when we were through (ie, she said she would give us "a try" after the divorce.....that's why I went throught the divorce as easy as possible and didn't fight it, hoping to minimize the bad feelings.

My goal right now is the keep moving on and try and put my life together. I held out too much hope the last six months, and lived like we were always on the verge of reconciliation.....she always dangled that thread.

But it made me a wreck because I put all my efforts into trying to be nice to her and to my kids. I should have been directing my efforts at myself.

I've started trying to get my stuff our of her place and into mine....we did a fast split up and I essentially took nothing out except my clothes.

This will probably lead to more hard feelings, but at this point, what's the difference? It takes two people to fix things.....she keeps saying "maybe, but not yet" but let the divorce go through.

I still believe that she holds out hope (she's very honest), but I don't think it will work unless she goes out of her way to try.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

Spent time with my ex-wife this morning.....I asked her to go skiing with me and the kids....she asked me to give her space and not push her. This is one of my biggest problems.

She doesn't want me to talk to her about getting back together anymore (although she is the one that brought it up 2-3 times over the phone when I was gone last week).

We're finally splitting up our joint checking account this month, and we're going to go through and divide up the furniture....I have rented a very small house and will have to put stuff into storage until I get my act together.

She did tell me that she will look for her house in the spring....her original plan was to move me in (after we are divorced), but I don't know if she wants to try now.

I know she still has feelings for me, we slept together about a month ago and it was pretty good.

The divorce was very fast (that was the recommendation of my counselor who had talked to her) and there was very little fighting throughout....I don't know if that helps.

Anyway, it is my daughter's birthday party today and we are going to a place as a family.

She still hasn't told anyone in her family that we are divorced. Heck, her mother (who lives with her) may not know.

Anyway, I guess I am crazy for holding out hope after we are already divorced, but I just have so much trouble giving up on my family.


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## rome2012 (Sep 10, 2010)

sad_dad said:


> Spent time with my ex-wife this morning.....I asked her to go skiing with me and the kids....she asked me to give her space and not push her. This is one of my biggest problems.
> 
> She doesn't want me to talk to her about getting back together anymore (although she is the one that brought it up 2-3 times over the phone when I was gone last week).
> 
> ...


I've sent you a PM.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

Got back from my daughter's birthday party. Went their as a family and it was nice...most of the folks don't know that my wife and I are divorced, now.

We talked and both of us enjoyed things. This was probably the longest we spent together since we've been separated.

I was surprised by how natural things felt.....maybe the quick divorce without arguing was the right thing to do (I've thought that I should stall it instead of just signing off on it).

I am going to invite her to go to my counselor again this week to see if she had a change in mood today.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

OK, it looks like things are much crazier than I thought.

During the fight that we had before separation, we were in marriage counseling. My ex-wife continued to go after we separated.

The therapist told my ex that I had serious mental problems, and was emotionally abusive. Sounds like she advised my wife to divorce me.....the emotionally abusive part is due to mood swings that the therapist thought she saw.

My ex has been having second thoughts all along, and has been asking me to "be nice and consitent", which I take means that the mood swings are gone......I am very consistent and relaxed, but she keeps freaking out.

Talking to a friend of mine, he asked about her hormones. I replied that she has been getting bio-identical hormone replacement. He replied that his wife had done the same and acted crazy during that time period. She finally stopped and went back to normal.....I also had been going to the same doctor and getting "supplements". On the interntet, I discovered the side effects of what she has been taking are mental confusion, mood swings, anxiety, and divorce.

So I went to my family doctor with the story to get his opinion. He said "I can't say about your wife, but what were you taking". I told him, and he told me that I was taking powerful anabolic steriods, and that the big fight that we had was likely due to "roid rage". He's asked me to document what happened and report it to the medical board, and for my ex-wife to find out what she is taking.

So here is the thing.....it looks like both of us were (without our knowledge) abusing steroids. We went nuts, and got into such a big argument that we got divorced. Marriage counselor saw my symptoms and thought I was crazy. I stopped taking the steroids, and I am fine. My ex-wife is still taking them....so she is looking at me to see if I am "normal", but she is still having the side effects and is literally interpreting her own mood swings as my own.

Crazy, huh?

Gives me some hope that if we can sort out the story, she might come around to what really happened.


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## Lonely720 (Sep 19, 2010)

I was thinking on similiar lines with your wife for my divorce...If it was really meant to be, he'd come back to me, right? 

I also had this thought b/c my soon to be ex freaked out one day and I thought he was going to start breaking stuff...I talked to a friend of mine who's in legal and she suggested that I follow through with the divorce and then my property is protected in the decree. 

Then once my property is protected...and he contines to fix himself and work on things personally, then we can work on us...

Have you heard of this before? Still trying to figure this out....The divorce is set for the 27th of this month...And I'm starting to freak out.


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## sad_dad (Dec 20, 2010)

I have to say that now we are divorced, there is a pretty profound gap between us.....we feel "divorced".

If you want to work it out, pull the judgement back, leave it in limbo and work on things. If it doesn't work out, continue the judgement.

I'm still pretty much in shock about what I've found out, FINALLY. Nothing made sense. I couldn't believe that the marriage counselor told my wife that I was crazy. 

Turns out both of us probably were......we're both of powerful drugs which alter mood and personality.

Only I stopped doing them seven months ago and she did not.

My therapist (who does not think I have any mental probleme) believes that this is the story. He also believes I have to treat my wife like a drug user and simply let her get off these drugs she is using and come to her own understanding.

Says he's had a couple of other cases where the same type of chemicals were used. The emotional outcome is bad.


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