# Do you think my wife is cheating?



## Fishermanbear1984

So I was on a business trip last week and managed to drop my cell phone and break the screen. On my way back home I stopped by the mall and dropped it off at a mobile repair shop. Didn't have a chance to pick it back up the next day and I wanted to check my email so I grabbed my wife's phone yesterday morning while she was in the basement doing laundry. While I was using it, a message popped up from someone named Jesse. Hey babe is John boy (me) back in town if not you wanna hang out tonight? Didnt recognize the name but there was a huge backlog of texts between her and this Jesse person. On average about 20 texts a day going back about 3 months. Started reading through them and there was no clear indication of anything inappropriate just the amount and the fact that there were a lot of babe, honey, sweetie, darling type words exchanged. And most of the texts were about grabbing coffee in the mornings, where to get together for lunch, whether or not they wanted to hang out after work (always when I was out of town). What really got my interest is that she's always telling this Jesse when I'm going to be out of town and getting answers like cool the control freak is gone let's get together and have some fun.

There are also a few phone calls per week with this person. Not a ton but my wife HATES talking on the phone. I mean seriously hates it. Always has, whether it's a cell phone or a land line. Loves texting, pretty much doesn't even talk to people anymore if they don't have texting ability. I did notice that all the calls were initiated by Jesse not my wife.

When we had a quiet moment to talk (we have 6 year old twins so we don't get much quiet time) I asked her who Jesse was. She said oh just someone I work with. Wanted to know why I asked and I told her about seeing the text. She told me she hung out with several of her coworker's on a regular basis after work when I was out of town. Funny she's never mentioned this to me before. Granted she's only had this job since May though. She gets out of work at 6 and apparently they go grab a drink and some appetizers at a local hotel bar before heading home. She says her parents don't mind watching the twins for an extra hour or so.

I told her I didn't feel comfortable with her hanging out at the bar after work even if it was just with coworker's and she got really upset. Way more than I think it was worth. Accused me of holding her back, not wanting her to get ahead in her job, told me if she didn't go to these bar nights they'd think she wasn't being a team player. Blew the whole thing way out of proportion in my opinion. 

Now she's not speaking to me. No sex last night in fact when I came to bed she got up and went in the guest room bed. Left for work (at least that's what I assume she did) as soon as she put the kids on the bus even though she doesn't have to be to work for another 2 hours.

Snooped a little in her FB account couldn't find anyone named Jesse in her friends list although there were 2 Jessie's. Nothing stands out to me although I was a little pissed off to discover she's following a bunch of accounts that do nothing but post pics of nearly naked cowboys and soldiers and stuff like that. Inappropriate and immature. And makes me wonder about her attraction to me since I don't look anything like any of these guys. Actually I'm pretty much a short scrawny geek.

I don't know how to react to any of this. We've been married 8 years and I've never had any reason to believe she would cheat or that she was unhappy. Even if she's not cheating the control freak comments in the texts suggest that she's not happy with me and she's told someone else something to make them think I'm a less than perfect husband.

Where do I go with this? Let it go? Try to talk to her about it (which would mean admitting I read through her messages)? Do some more snooping first and see if I find anything else? Help please!
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## it-guy

Babe, honey, sweetie, darling.... Meeting only when you are out of town. Most people would consider doing anything behind your spouses back to be cheating. Doesn't matter if they are sleeping together or not. At the very least it is an emotional affair and the start of a physical one.

You are welcome to define "cheating" as you wish.

Oh and cutting you off when you voice your concern!?!?!?!? That's a HUGE problem! Major display of selfishness and a lack of respect for your marriage. Cheaters do these things. It is in the script. 

I think your story is about to get a lot worse. I would quietly continue investigating and start getting yourself ready for a potential divorce. Do not play the "pick me" game.


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## GusPolinski

Sure sounds like it.

Since you seem to have access to her phone, I'd recommend running data recovery against it in order to retrieve any deleted texts, pics, call records, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostinthought61

she is angry because she was found out....she will most likely go underground...time to become a detective...just her actions demonstrate someone hiding some thing or someone. find out if jesse is married...get a VAR and plant it in her car.


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## BetrayedDad

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Do you think my wife is cheating?


If you have to come to an anonymous internet forum to ask then, more likely than not, yes she is.

How many women do YOU call babe, honey, sweetie or darling besides your wife?

How many women do YOU meet up with on the reg and never tell her about at all?

How many women do YOU text 20 times a day on average over long stretches of time?

There is only one question you need to ask yourself before you start investigating further. 

If you find out she's fvcking Jesse (FYI: she is), are you going to divorce her or try to save the marriage?


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## Tatsuhiko

I think your suspicions are justified. There are hundreds of stories on this forum that start out just like yours and unfortunately end up with the discovery of an affair. You need to back off on the confrontations with her and go into full detective mode. 

If she drives to work, get a voice-activated recorder (VAR) and put it in her car to find out the nature of their conversations. 

It is disturbing that she's made you known as a "control freak" to her colleagues. 

If she's not actively in an affair, Jesse is definitely grooming her for it. She knows this and likes his attention. Also disturbing.


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## eric1

Step Number One is to not say anything else. She's your wife and does deserve respect

1. Do the text recovery as Gus said, though it sounds like there hasn't been much deleted
2. Find out what you can about this loser 

It sounds like if she is complaining to a coworker about you, and he's using terms of endearment then this IS something to worry about. Your concern is warranted.


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## Fishermanbear1984

What is a VAR?

Just discovered something else - went on her employers web site and they don't have anyone named Jesse working there. At least not in the posted company directory. There is a Jess but the employee profiles show that Jess is female. I do know they have a lot of volunteers and college work study students at her company though and I would assume they wouldn't be in the company directory. So I guess that doesn't prove she's lying about Jesse being a coworker.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MJJEAN

She wouldn't be so upset if he was just a friend. It's AT LEAST an emotional affair and I'd lay odds it's physical, too.


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## Lila

Not sure if the terms of endearment would be red flags for cheating as I have a gay friend who uses most of the ones you mentioned with me. Her response to your questions is what seems strange. It could be that she's entering into an affair or it could be that there's something about her friends or activities you'll want her to stop. Does she have friends outside of work? Does she go out with friends without you? Basically, does she have a social life outside of you.?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Fishermanbear1984

She hasn't worked outside the home in many years prior to this job. So this is basically her first foray into what I would call the adult world. We started dating in high school and had a birth control failure when she was 19. Got married just after her 20th birthday. The twins were premature and had some pretty significant health issues so we agreed she would stay home with them until they started school. During this time she got an online degree and when the twins started school she started looking for a job. Landed this one, as an entry level manager at the local Salvation Army, this past spring. Up until she got this job, she had very little social life in fact she very rarely left the house except to visit her parents or go grocery shopping.

It has crossed my mind that she may be trying to claim some independence apart from me. Working longer hours than she needs, going out after work. Her coworker's probably are the first real friends she's had since high school. It has also crossed my mind that Jesse could just as easily be a woman as a man. Perhaps a girlfriend she feels she can go a little wild with? She DID pretty much lose her only chance to have a normal 20-something life when the twins came along. Or am I just making excuses here?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

It's common to hide someone on a cell with a different name. Run the number over the Internet and see if it matches up. Jesse could be a Frank or Bob.

Doesn't smell like an affair from what you posted but her actions after you brought it up aren't normal.


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## Malaise

There's nothing that indicates Jesse being male or female. Right?

She ? could be a wing-man.

And they have drinks and appetizers at a hotel bar?


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## Bananapeel

If you know the establishment she is going to after work just have a PI or a friend she doesn't know go there and see if Jessie is a man or woman, and how they are behaving around each other.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> What is a VAR?
> 
> Just discovered something else - went on her employers web site and they don't have anyone named Jesse working there. At least not in the posted company directory. There is a Jess but the employee profiles show that Jess is female. I do know they have a lot of volunteers and college work study students at her company though and I would assume they wouldn't be in the company directory. So I guess that doesn't prove she's lying about Jesse being a coworker.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At our company, the directory has the legal name of each employee but that's not necessarily what they go by. Some of them go by their middle names. I actually normally go by a shortened version of my legal name so if you search by what people call me, you're not going to find it. So, keep that in mind. He could very well work with her.


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## TX-SC

VAR=Voice Activated Recorder

Get one, hide it under the seat of her car or somewhere in the house. I think you need to follow your gut here. Signs are pretty strong that she is cheating and gas lighting you. Unfortunately, I think she is also looking for an excuse to leave you. Anything you do will be met with anger. You should keep a VAR on you as well so she can't accuse you of abusing her.


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## Satya

Ask for her phone tonight. 

See if the texts are deleted. 

You're being punished because you're ruining her fun, of course... 

I don't know any women who call other women baby. Hun, hon, honey, maybe sweetie. 

Lots of red flags. I'd be more than concerned.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> It has also crossed my mind that Jesse could just as easily be a woman as a man. Perhaps a girlfriend she feels she can go a little wild with? She DID pretty much lose her only chance to have a normal 20-something life when the twins came along. Or am I just making excuses here?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think females call other females "Babe". Honey or sweetie, yes, but not babe.


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## Fishermanbear1984

She says they go out to this hotel bar after work as a group generally of 4 or 5 people a couple of times a week. She went so far as to tell me the names of the other people who usually join them - she also said her immediate supervisor joins them sometimes. If that's true, I can't imagine there would be anything inappropriate going on. She also says she only goes when I'm away because when I'm home she would rather be at home with us than out with them. But if she's been doing this for 3 months why hasn't she told me about it? 

So how do I go about determining who Jesse is? I'm guessing if she is hiding something, she won't just leave her phone lying around anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostinthought61

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> She hasn't worked outside the home in many years prior to this job. So this is basically her first foray into what I would call the adult world. We started dating in high school and had a birth control failure when she was 19. Got married just after her 20th birthday. The twins were premature and had some pretty significant health issues so we agreed she would stay home with them until they started school. During this time she got an online degree and when the twins started school she started looking for a job. Landed this one, as an entry level manager at the local Salvation Army, this past spring. Up until she got this job, she had very little social life in fact she very rarely left the house except to visit her parents or go grocery shopping.
> 
> It has crossed my mind that she may be trying to claim some independence apart from me. Working longer hours than she needs, going out after work. Her coworker's probably are the first real friends she's had since high school. It has also crossed my mind that Jesse could just as easily be a woman as a man. Perhaps a girlfriend she feels she can go a little wild with? She DID pretty much lose her only chance to have a normal 20-something life when the twins came along. Or am I just making excuses here?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


won't you rather find for yourself then let your mind wander in doubt....one way or another you can't deny the fact she is being secretive...also i bet dollars to donuts she starts to passcode her phone now.


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## Malaise

Do you know any of these people? The supervisor?

Anyone you could ask to verify?

As @Bananapeel said, ask a friend to check it out.


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## Fishermanbear1984

Ok now that I know what a VAR is I would say in our case there's probably no point. As I said earlier, my wife HATES talking on the phone. We don't even have a land line at home anymore. She definitely won't use her cell in the car - her younger brother (who she absolutely adored) was killed in a car accident 2 years ago by some ******* who was texting and driving. She now insists that our cell phones get put out of reach while we are driving and I can't see her breaking that rule. Not for anything. She doesn't even have a hands free device. Won't eat in the car or anything that could be a distraction.

Actually it surprised me to find out that she is going to a bar before driving home. I have to assume she can't be having more than one drink because she's never had much alcohol tolerance. Unless she's not drinking just hanging out with people who are. Last I knew she was the only one at her workplace with more than a 10 mile commute.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ABHale

Go meet her for lunch today. Bring flowers like you are trying to make up. See who she with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TAM2013

You just have to find out if Jesse is a straight male. If he is, she's done enough for me. I'd bung her out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Idyit

Not disparaging anyone but 'team player' and pressure to do nights out sounds more Fortune 100/500 corporate America, not Salvation Army. I'd be checking things out very carefully.

~ Passio


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## Malaise

Idyit said:


> Not disparaging anyone but 'team player' and pressure to do nights out sounds more Fortune 100/500 corporate America, not Salvation Army. I'd be checking things out very carefully.
> 
> ~ Passio


After all, whatever you know about any of this come from her. 

And...

cheaters lie.


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## TDSC60

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Hey babe is John boy (me) back in town if not you wanna hang out tonight?


This person is using a derogatory nickname for you and your wife is not objecting. This indicates that she is comfortable referring to you in this manner and that she is discussing her opinion of you with other people. That shows no respect for you as a person or a husband. The "control freak" comment shows the same opinion of you. It really does not matter if Jesse is male or female, the fact that your wife is comfortable talking to other people in this way is not good.



Given your marital history(married young, kids early on, wife a stay at home Mom until recently, just reentered the workforce, little or now adult contact outside the marriage until now) she fits many of the indicators for an affair ripe wife.

Her reaction to your questions are typical of a cheating wife who lies, makes up reasons for maintaining contact, and tries to shift the blame to her husband.

Get a couple of VARs. Put one in her car immediately. Odds are that she talks to Jesse there while you are at home. 

Her behavior certainly meets the standard behavior of a cheating wife, at least an EA(emotional affair). With her attitude toward you, it will soon tun physical (sex) if it has not already reached that point.

Do not talk to her any more about it. Let her think everything is fine and deploy the VARs. One in the car another in the house in a location where she can talk but not be overheard by the kids. Keep an eye on the texting. Does she text this person more than she texts you? That is a clear indication of where you fall in her priorities.


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## BetrayedDad

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> I can't imagine there would be anything inappropriate going on.


How naive... This reminds me of a song.


Jessie is a friend,
Yeah, I know he's been a good friend of mine
But lately something's changed
It ain't hard to define
Jessie's got himself a girl and I want to make her mine

And she's watching him with those eyes
And she's lovin' him with that body, I just know it!
And he's holding her in his arms late, late at night

You know I wish that I had Jessie's girl
I wish that I had Jessie's girl
Where can I find a woman like that?


Your wife is Jesse's girl now my friend and you don't want a woman like this.

After you confirm the affair, make sure you are already prepared to file for divorce.


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## Jay83

Dude when I confronted my wife at first about possibly cheating her reaction was exactly the same... met with anger and denial even though none of what she was doing made sense. 

Turns out she was having an on and off eight month affair physical and I was right.

I'm not saying your wife would do the same but the red flags are there.


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## Fishermanbear1984

I like the lunch and flowers idea. Not today because I'm already having lunch with a business associate, and she doesn't work tomorrow, but maybe on Thursday or Friday.

I'll see if I can get my hands on her phone again tonight. Although I already read the entire text thread from Jesse. Perhaps I can at least get a phone number and see what I can find out from that.

Our phones are both linked to the same Verizon account. Is she going to be able to tell if I set my phone to get copies of her text messages? I know it's possible because when we first got the phones we had to turn that off. She gets so many texts from her mom and her sister it was driving me crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TDSC60

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Ok now that I know what a VAR is I would say in our case there's probably no point. As I said earlier, my wife HATES talking on the phone. We don't even have a land line at home anymore. She definitely won't use her cell in the car - her younger brother (who she absolutely adored) was killed in a car accident 2 years ago by some ******* who was texting and driving. She now insists that our cell phones get put out of reach while we are driving and I can't see her breaking that rule. Not for anything. She doesn't even have a hands free device. Won't eat in the car or anything that could be a distraction.
> 
> Actually it surprised me to find out that she is going to a bar before driving home. I have to assume she can't be having more than one drink because she's never had much alcohol tolerance. Unless she's not drinking just hanging out with people who are. Last I knew she was the only one at her workplace with more than a 10 mile commute.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you not surprised by her current behavior as it relates to Jesse? Did you think your wife would use "John Boy" or "control freak" to describe you? 

Forget about what you think your wife would or would not do. If she is in an affair, she is not longer the loving wife and mother you thought she was, do not expect her to behave like she still is the person you married - she it no longer that person.


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## Fishermanbear1984

TDSC60 - she texts everybody more than she texts me. That's on me though because I don't text unless I have to. I hate texting almost as much as she hates talking. As a matter of fact she's gotten mad at me in the past because I haven't answered her texts in what she considers an acceptable amount of time. I told her if it's important enough she can get over her issue with phones and call me. So we don't really communicate much when we're not together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badmemory

I would install spyware on her cell phone. You just need about 20 minutes alone with her phone to do it. She won't know it's there. Then you can read her texts in real time and track her location from the company's website. 

You might also consider installing a key logger on her computer.

Google to do research on the best software out there now. It's been 5 years since I used both, so I'm sure the technology has improved; but that's how I caught my WW.

And FWIW; my wife gas lighted me just like yours is doing, about going out with her "work friends". Going out with them was often just her first stop, or the excuse, before she would meet up with the POSOM.

Stay cool like everything's fine. Do your research on the methods (we can help you). If's she's cheating, you can catch her; and do it with non disputable evidence.


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## SunCMars

If nothing else-------> The Salvation Army? I love what they do for needy Americans. I donate often.

They can control their programs and policies, and they do.

Their employees? This is always an issue with any organization.

Your wife is not helping the cause! Poop happens!

Rats!

I agree....sounds like cheating.


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## MarriedDude

I have a verizon business account, not aure what kind you have....but...ALL text messages are backed up...and we can watch them real time on 1 of the stations at the office.


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## BetrayedDad

Idyit said:


> Not disparaging anyone but 'team player' and pressure to do nights out sounds more Fortune 100/500 corporate America, not Salvation Army.


If his local Salvation Army is anything like mine, then Jesse is probably a total dirt bag. A lot of sketchy people hang out in ours.


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## Yeswecan

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> She says they go out to this hotel bar after work as a group generally of 4 or 5 people a couple of times a week. She went so far as to tell me the names of the other people who usually join them - she also said her immediate supervisor joins them sometimes. If that's true, I can't imagine there would be anything inappropriate going on. She also says she only goes when I'm away because when I'm home she would rather be at home with us than out with them. But if she's been doing this for 3 months why hasn't she told me about it?
> 
> So how do I go about determining who Jesse is? I'm guessing if she is hiding something, she won't just leave her phone lying around anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At the very least a budding affair is in the works. Of the many years in the corporate world the use of sweety, hon, babe, etc is never used in my memory. Your W is also hiding this as she knows it is not appropriate. Furthermore, getting lit at the local bar/hotel with coworkers does not advance a career unless of course their may be extra curricular activity in the hotel portion with a superior. 

You have cause for concern.


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## GuyInColorado

Glad you're here. You are in denial and trying to make any excuse to make her innocent. But if you stick around here and read similar stories like yours, you will find out 90% of them end up being a physical affair. I'm afraid from my chair over here in Colorado, it looks like your wife is indeed cheating on you. Time to get solid proof. 

Don't be a doormat. So many weak guys think they will never find a better woman and they are the reason they cheated in the first place. They end up begging their wives to stop the affair and to work on their marriage. This causes the wayward wife to be repulsed even more, as she doesn't want a weak husband. Don't be that guy. 

Keep posting on here, we'll help you get through this.

In the mean time, start working on yourself. Are you in good physical shape? If not, that's where I'd start first. Get your diet spot on. Only water and healthy meals. Hit the gym hard 3-4x a week. When you look good, you have confidence. When you have confidence, the world is yours.


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## TDSC60

If you get access to her phone, turn the "share text" back on. At least until you get more info on Jesse.


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## Roselyn

Hiding her phone, meeting a friend when you're out of town, withholding sex, and not talking to you. These are signs of cheating. Sorry you are here.


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## TAM2013

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> TDSC60 - she texts everybody more than she texts me. As a matter of fact she's gotten mad at me in the past because I haven't answered her texts in what she considers an acceptable amount of time.


Means nothing, OP. Dont flatter yourself that you're the only person she needs constant attention off. If she's the kind I think she is, and she doesn't get enough attention from you whether she deserves it or not, she'll get it elsewhere. And having a little joke at your expense with a potential suitor is nasty.

True colors shown, especially her reaction. DUMP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishermanbear1984

We have Verizon home multiple lines. 2 iPhone 6s and an IPad Air 2 which we bought and pay the bill for, for her parents. Kind of as payment for all the babysitting they do.

As far as whether I would divorce or try to save the marriage? I honestly don't know, the whole thing is too new. Initial thought is if she's screwed another man I would divorce. At the same time I have to think about my relationship with the twins. She'd almost guaranteed get primary custody because she is their primary caregiver and due to the nature of my job they not only spend more time with her than they do with me, they probably spend more time with her parents than they do with me. Even when I'm working at home, like I am today, I lock myself in my office to prevent disturbances if anyone else is home. As I think about it, she could probably make a damn good case that I am a mostly absentee parent. Although I could make an equally good case that I have to work crazy hours to pay the twins' medical bills and support my wife's rather out of control spending habits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> She hasn't worked outside the home in many years prior to this job. So this is basically her first foray into what I would call the adult world. We started dating in high school and had a birth control failure when she was 19. Got married just after her 20th birthday. The twins were premature and had some pretty significant health issues so we agreed she would stay home with them until they started school. During this time she got an online degree and when the twins started school she started looking for a job. Landed this one, as an entry level manager at the local Salvation Army, this past spring. Up until she got this job, she had very little social life in fact she very rarely left the house except to visit her parents or go grocery shopping.
> 
> It has crossed my mind that she may be trying to claim some independence apart from me. Working longer hours than she needs, going out after work. Her coworker's probably are the first real friends she's had since high school. It has also crossed my mind that Jesse could just as easily be a woman as a man. Perhaps a girlfriend she feels she can go a little wild with? She DID pretty much lose her only chance to have a normal 20-something life when the twins came along. Or am I just making excuses here?


Seems like if Jesse were a woman, she'd have told you that pretty quickly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishermanbear1984

GuyinCO - I am 5'7 (only 2 inches taller than her) and she actually weighs more than me - I'm about 145 and she's about 170. She's the one who needs to lose weight and believe me I've let her know that. I on the other hand can't gain weight or build muscle no matter what I do (runner's build).

Rosalyn - she's only withheld sex this one time - last night when she was pissed at me. Normally she wants it more than I do. I would say based on other posts I have read here that she is the HD in our marriage and I am the LD. Especially since she's put on more than 50 pounds since the kids were born. I am NOT attracted to overweight women. And she refuses to make any effort to fix it. Honestly though sex hasn't been a priority for me for a long time. I'm too damn tired most nights after putting in 60-80 hour work weeks. Then she goes back to work to supposedly help support the family and ends up spending her entire damn paycheck on used clothing and other junk from the store where she works. Our life was better before she started working, IMHO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> She says they go out to this hotel bar after work as a group generally of 4 or 5 people a couple of times a week. She went so far as to tell me the names of the other people who usually join them - she also said her immediate supervisor joins them sometimes. If that's true, I can't imagine there would be anything inappropriate going on. She also says she only goes when I'm away because when I'm home she would rather be at home with us than out with them. But if she's been doing this for 3 months why hasn't she told me about it?
> 
> So how do I go about determining who Jesse is? I'm guessing if she is hiding something, she won't just leave her phone lying around anymore.


A hotel bar?

Well, that's convenient.

As for finding out who Jesse is, run a paid search against the number at spokeo.com and/or intelius.com. Should cost something like five or ten bucks.

You can also a) Google the number (which, honestly, will probably result in links to Spokeo and Intelius) and b) use the number in a Facebook search.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## luvpudin

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> GuyinCO - I am 5'7 (only 2 inches taller than her) and she actually weighs more than me - I'm about 145 and she's about 170. She's the one who needs to lose weight and believe me I've let her know that. I on the other hand can't gain weight or build muscle no matter what I do (runner's build).
> 
> Rosalyn - she's only withheld sex this one time - last night when she was pissed at me. Normally she wants it more than I do. I would say based on other posts I have read here that she is the HD in our marriage and I am the LD. Especially since she's put on more than 50 pounds since the kids were born. I am NOT attracted to overweight women. And she refuses to make any effort to fix it. Honestly though sex hasn't been a priority for me for a long time. I'm too damn tired most nights after putting in 60-80 hour work weeks. Then she goes back to work to supposedly help support the family and ends up spending her entire damn paycheck on used clothing and other junk from the store where she works. Our life was better before she started working, IMHO.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hate to say it, but if you're LD and she's HD, and you're not giving it to her, aren't attracted to her, etc... she's finding someone who is. And is taking advantage of that. Be ready... it's about to get crazy.


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## mary35

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> GuyinCO - I am 5'7 (only 2 inches taller than her) and she actually weighs more than me - I'm about 145 and she's about 170. She's the one who needs to lose weight and believe me I've let her know that. I on the other hand can't gain weight or build muscle no matter what I do (runner's build).
> 
> Rosalyn - she's only withheld sex this one time - last night when she was pissed at me. Normally she wants it more than I do. I would say based on other posts I have read here that she is the HD in our marriage and I am the LD. Especially since she's put on more than 50 pounds since the kids were born. I am NOT attracted to overweight women. And she refuses to make any effort to fix it. Honestly though sex hasn't been a priority for me for a long time. I'm too damn tired most nights after putting in 60-80 hour work weeks. Then she goes back to work to supposedly help support the family and ends up spending her entire damn paycheck on used clothing and other junk from the store where she works. Our life was better before she started working, IMHO.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ouch - a lot of resentment built up here - on both sides I suspect. This does not mean she is justified, but it sounds like you both have some major issues within the marriage. Hopefully whatever is going on is in the early stage and you can put a halt to it quickly. But even if that happens - right now you have an affair ripe marriage - and you both have a lot of work to do to fix your marriage - to affair proof it, so to speak. Don't get me wrong - if she is cheating, she owns it - all of it. But the state of your marriage - you both own that. 

Good luck in finding out what you need to know. It might be worth it to invest in a private detective to find out quicker.


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## rzmpf

Well OP, you have many problems at your hand.

- You confronted too early. You knew nothing but a name and some namecalling at your expense. Now she knows that you know something. Nothing to change that yet but to keep in mind if texting/calling stops.

- She seems to really think that you are a control freak. The conversations and her behaviour (spending money, getting angry, complaining that you hold her back) point to that. Really think about that and ask yourself honestly if you are controlling. Could be that she is rewriting marital history.

- Her story is fishy. If these "social events" were so important why is she only going when you are not at home? Why don't you know about them? (could she want to avoid a fight because you may be controlling or did she just want to keep it a secret from you?)

- Her behaviour has changed. She goes out for drinks and drives. She calls this guy although she does not like calling. Why text him when she supposedly works beside him all day? 

- All the red flags that have been mentioned (married young, started working etc.)

You need to get to the bottom of this. Find out who this guy is, if he really works there/in her team, if there even is a "team meeting" at the bar and not only a meeting in a hotel room. You said she spends a lot of money, on what? Any unusual bills (lingerie, things you did not see around the house etc)? Change of style (hair, grooming, clothing, tanning, working out)?

Putting a VAR in the car could prove useful even if she is not using her phone while driving. She could use it in the parking lot for privacy, someone could drive with her. You will certainly not know less by using it. Try to get the GPS tracking on her phone working and/or have a GPS on the car. And try all the other advices you got here for snooping around if applicable.

P.S.
With your/her weight and sex issues it gets even worse....


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## straightshooter

Fisher,

My friend, every response you have made after you got some feed back has been to make an excuse why she can't be doing anything inappropriate
(1) she doesn't talk on her cell phone in car. Bull ****. She can park the car or talk on it before she even starts it so what happened to her brother means nothing
(2) she doesnt drink alcohol- bull ****. That means nothing. She is going to "happy hour" in mixed company more than occasionally only when you have no idea who she is with and when she comes home. 
(3) she wants to be with you when you are home. No crap. If she stays out till midnight when you are home you will know that. And you not texting is just making it easier.

YOU ARE IN BIG TIME DENIAL!!!!

You do not need to decide what you will or will not do if she is cheating. That depends probably on what she does when you catch her. But what you really need to do is
(1) listen to what folks here are telling you. Your wife is not unique and everything she is doing or saying has been heard by many on here before
(2) install then damm VAR and you will get your answer in less than a week.
(3) stop making excuses favor her
(4) google "signs of female infidelity". You have enough red flags here to start your own bull fighting school.

Understand this also, workplace affairs are the most difficult to catch and the most difficult to stop and if Jesse is at work, one of them needs to leave that job if she is in either an emotional or physical affair.

Now, my guess is she will have by now deleted any evidence that you will easily find. So if you want tyo get the truth, after the VAR, put a GPS on her car and when you go out of town next you will know where she is, when she comes home, and every place else she went.

The old saying here is "trust your gut". Your gut caused you to seek out an internet forum on infidelity and ask for advice or opinions. No one should be telling you to make any decisions now on divorce or reconciliaiton because until you find out what the hell is hapopening that is getting way ahead of yourself.

But the absolute WORST thing you can do for yourself right now is play ostrich and put your head in the sand.


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## Fishermanbear1984

She has complained in the past that I treat her like a child. I'm only 6 years older than her but considering we started dating when she was only 16, I suppose I may still treat her like the (very young and immature) woman she was when we originally got together. Honestly she's still very immature in a lot of ways. She's a great mom and takes good care of our house, but she's constantly running home to mommy and daddy when things get difficult. She's always on her phone texting her mother and older sister. She sulks when she doesn't get her own way. She still keeps stuffed animals in our bed and our bedroom looks like it belongs to a 13 year old girl. I'm gone so much I don't feel like fighting with her over home decor. There are far more important things. Like she ran up this college tuition bill but settled for a retail job. She got her degree in early childhood education and there are always open jobs here in daycare and private preschools. Then she complains that I'm stifling her ambitions? I don't actually think she has any ambition she just likes to tell herself she does.

So it looks like I need to turn on text message forwarding from her phone to mine. I'll do that tonight even if I have to grab her phone after she's fallen asleep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishermanbear1984

Ok I'll look into the VAR thing. I still don't think it will yield much since she uses park and ride. She only actually drives about 10 miles then she leaves her car and takes the bus the other 20 miles to work. But I guess it can't hurt.

And I probably am making excuses. Truth is our marriage hasn't been great in a long time if ever. We got married way too young and really only because she was pregnant. I know I felt trapped at the time and I'm sure she did too. So yeah, there's resentment. But I got her knocked up and it was my responsibility to take care of it. And I do love my kids even if I don't get to spend a lot of time with them. Unfortunately I'm not really sure if I love her. I'm not sure I ever did. We had great chemistry in the beginning and I couldn't believe that this gorgeous teenage girl was willing to date geeky loser college boy me. Part of me wonders if it was really nothing but wanting sex on my part (I was the virgin when we met, not her) and wanting my money on hers. Considering I'm not even really attracted to her anymore, I'm wondering if we should just call it quits even if she's not cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## it-guy

So you were 22 and she was 16 when you started dating?


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## Satya

Some will say confront, some will say bide your time and gather evidence. I say, go with your gut. 

You need to stop being afraid of her. The only way to end an affair or bad behavior is to squash it with a giant Monty Python foot.

So, gather your evidence.

Meanwhile, show up unexpectedly at her social nights out, and treat her like you're dating again. See how she responds. 

Sneak her phone tonight to back up evidence if you can, Then ASK her regularly for her phone and offer up your own.

If she puts a pass code on it, if she argues and resists, if she gets upset about invasion of privacy, tell her she is welcome to privacy, in the bathroom. If she takes her phone in there, then you know something is rotten.

Just watch the signs. Many here know them well. She may just be going out for drinks. I like meeting girlfriends for drinks, but I work my arse off and I DON'T have children, and maybe I see them 4x a year, if that. Jesse may be a woman. You're going to trust (somewhat), but VERIFY.


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## straightshooter

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Ok I'll look into the VAR thing. I still don't think it will yield much since she uses park and ride. She only actually drives about 10 miles then she leaves her car and takes the bus the other 20 miles to work. But I guess it can't hurt.
> 
> And I probably am making excuses. Truth is our marriage hasn't been great in a long time if ever. We got married way too young and really only because she was pregnant. I know I felt trapped at the time and I'm sure she did too. So yeah, there's resentment. But I got her knocked up and it was my responsibility to take care of it. And I do love my kids even if I don't get to spend a lot of time with them. Unfortunately I'm not really sure if I love her. I'm not sure I ever did. We had great chemistry in the beginning and I couldn't believe that this gorgeous teenage girl was willing to date geeky loser college boy me. Part of me wonders if it was really nothing but wanting sex on my part (I was the virgin when we met, not her) and wanting my money on hers. *Considering I'm not even really attracted to her anymore, I'm wondering if we should just call it quits even if she's not cheating.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fisher,

Now a little progress. But what you have written above, if she feels the same way, makes it more rather than less likely that something is going on. if you do not think your marriage is going great, guess what she probably thinks??? THAT IS NOT YOUR FAULT . She owns 50% of the marital problems. The possible cheating is 100% on her.
Now what I highlighted is a whole different issue. if you want out of the marriage, you do not need to apologize to anyone for that. But what you do need to do for yourself is find out what is going on and then make that decision.

For less than $200 you can get VAR's , two of them. put one in the house and one in her car. Techies on here can tell you exactly what to buy. Ask for the help. You need strong velcro and on the one in the house you put it high up where she is not likely to look, probably in bedroom. it does not matter how much she drives to work. She does'nt take the bus to the grocery store, the gym, the kids activities, etc. When you ARE home she still uses the car and can be talking on it at anytime parked or driving. She also may be talking to girlfriends and reveal something. Women tend to be more talkative to friends when they are cheating then men.

understand this about the VAR's
(1) you NEVER reveal how you find out anything. 
(2) you must be prepared to hear some disturbing stuff.

Someone told you you confronted too early. maybe true, but I am guaranteeing you that the VAR and a GPS will get you the information. If you do get a name of OM (Jesse). there are websites where you can pay $29.95 and find out everything but his jock size. So if you get to the point where you find out who this is you can find him. It sounds like jesse is not his name, or he is not a co worker but someone she met while out with co workers if you are unable to locate him on their directory.

Do what I told you and google the "cheating wife signs". And one other tidbit. There are kits you can buy that can test her underwear for semen if you get more information and are convinced she is probably cheating.

the important thing here is that you do not sit back and get blindsided. That puts YOU in control of what happens.

Now do yourself a favor and go into CIA mode for a short time here and then operate from facts, not speculation. There is nothing she is going to say or do that someone reading your posts has not heard. Take that to the bank.

And understand, when a bunch of strangers who do not know one another come to basically the same general conclusion in different words, the group is rarely wrong.


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## Rubix Cubed

The "John *boy*" and "control freak" are the derogatory things she has told Jesse about you to get sympathy from him/her. She is already making you out to be the horrible husband (and the "boy" would be a slash at your manhood) to get ego kibbles from the OM/OW.She's gaslighting you big time. I'd expect when you get her phone again there will be no trace of anything you saw before. If there is document it. Send it to your email or take pics of it, but make sure you have proof. As said before get Jesse's number off of the texts and google it and facebook search it. Also put it back into the dialer of her phone and see who comes up.Check your phone records to see when and how many calls/texts have been placed to which numbers. You would be wise to not assume anything about what your wife would or wouldn't do at this point, no one ever expects their spouse to cheat.


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## Fishermanbear1984

It guy - yes that's correct. But we didn't become exclusive until she was 18. And I know she was sleeping with other guys before we became exclusive because she admitted it. In fact she said it was my fault because I refused to have full intercourse with her until she graduated from high school (trust me, to a guy who wasn't getting anything at all before then, even the regular BJs were enough). On her 18th birthday she literally jumped me and told me if we didn't do it that night she was going to dump me. Needless to say we did it, and became exclusive from that point on. A year later a condom broke and she got pregnant. And yes, I know they're my kids, they look just like me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishermanbear1984

Heading out to lunch now. Hopefully I can keep my mind off of all this long enough not to blow a business deal that's been months in the making.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedDad

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> I am 5'7 (only 2 inches taller than her) and she actually weighs more than me - I'm about 145 and she's about 170. She's the one who needs to lose weight and believe me I've let her know that. I on the other hand can't gain weight or build muscle no matter what I do (runner's build).


You should be consuming 3,000 calories (mostly protein) per day and lifting HEAVY weights in compound movements. Ditch the cardio if you want to ditch the runner's build.


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## Tatsuhiko

Your wife's promiscuous past is all the more reason to believe that she's picked up her old habits of multiple partners. 

Regarding VARs, they make a model that looks like a pen. Some men have had success slipping this "pen" into their wife's purse. This would capture her conversations with colleagues at her outings. However it's a bit risky, because your wife might know the contents of her purse very well and recognize that it's not her pen.


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## Yeswecan

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> GuyinCO - I am 5'7 (only 2 inches taller than her) and she actually weighs more than me - I'm about 145 and she's about 170. She's the one who needs to lose weight and believe me I've let her know that. I on the other hand can't gain weight or build muscle no matter what I do (runner's build).
> 
> Rosalyn - she's only withheld sex this one time - last night when she was pissed at me. Normally she wants it more than I do. I would say based on other posts I have read here that she is the HD in our marriage and I am the LD. Especially since she's put on more than 50 pounds since the kids were born. I am NOT attracted to overweight women. And she refuses to make any effort to fix it. Honestly though sex hasn't been a priority for me for a long time. I'm too damn tired most nights after putting in 60-80 hour work weeks. Then she goes back to work to supposedly help support the family and ends up spending her entire damn paycheck on used clothing and other junk from the store where she works. Our life was better before she started working, IMHO.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can assure you from this post here your W being degraded(by you) because of her weight does absolutely nothing for her self-esteem. Let another man call here babe, sweety and other words of endearment you can color your W gone.


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## GuyInColorado

You two either need marriage counseling or to end the marriage. For MC to work, both people must want to save the marriage. In 90% of the cases, one person doesn't want to save it, so MC has a very low success rate. You two should have never got married, so how do you get around that? You don't. I sure as hell shouldn't have got married, but I was dumb and young. 

If I were you, I'd get solid evidence she is cheating and then divorce her. Use it as leverage to get a good settlement and get everyone on your side. Gotta look at the positives. I would have gave anything for my ex wife to have an affair on me. It would have me look like the good guy. A lot of friends/family saw me leaving my unattractive wife, ending my kid's perfect world, and then saw me dating an attractive woman 3 months later. Oh well. I'm sure a lot happier now and my kids get to see what a loving relationship is really like!


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## it-guy

Ok you answered my second question also. You have not been the only guy. Not that it always matters. But it sometimes matters.

It really doesn't sound good though man. I just went through this with a coworker and friend. He suspected his wife of cheating. She followed the typical script. He got a little USB stick VAR and put it in her car one day. He got his smoking gun. But she lied and lied and lied. That is just how it goes. At least he knows for sure now. And he is divorcing her no matter what she says.


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## Cynthia

Sorry. Didn't read enough of the thread before responding. Disregard.


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## TDSC60

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> It guy - yes that's correct. But we didn't become exclusive until she was 18. And I know she was sleeping with other guys before we became exclusive because she admitted it. In fact she said it was my fault because I refused to have full intercourse with her until she graduated from high school (trust me, to a guy who wasn't getting anything at all before then, even the regular BJs were enough). On her 18th birthday she literally jumped me and told me if we didn't do it that night she was going to dump me. Needless to say we did it, and became exclusive from that point on. A year later a condom broke and she got pregnant. And yes, I know they're my kids, they look just like me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


WOW. So she was community property until she graduated high school and made no secret about it. You say she threatened to dump you if you did not have sex with her and you became exclusive then. How do you know she was exclusive? Because she said so?

With her history, it seems she does not have a problem f*cking other men if she is not getting what see wants from you.

And it appears you didn't want to marry her anyway.

I think you don't want to be married to her and what you really want is to catch her cheating so you can feel justified in divorcing her. I think you will have your smoking gun when you start seeing her texts. Even if you don't, I don't see this marriage surviving very much longer.


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## GusPolinski

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> It guy - yes that's correct. But we didn't become exclusive until she was 18. And I know she was sleeping with other guys before we became exclusive because she admitted it. In fact she said it was my fault because I refused to have full intercourse with her until she graduated from high school (trust me, to a guy who wasn't getting anything at all before then, even the regular BJs were enough). On her 18th birthday she literally jumped me and told me if we didn't do it that night she was going to dump me. Needless to say we did it, and became exclusive from that point on. A year later a condom broke and she got pregnant. And yes, I know they're my kids, they look just like me.











_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishermanbear1984

Looked up our phone records online. Called the number most likely to be Jesse. Got voice mail but it was the right number. So - Jesse is a woman. Actually the voice mail says Jess. Got a last name from that, looked her up online. She IS on my wife's FB account. She's also a ****. So the question now is whether or not my wife is involved with this woman or if they're just friends. If perhaps there is no relationship but maybe this woman wants one and is feeding into my wife's dissatisfaction with our marriage. I'm guessing the latter simply because my wife is grossed out by gay sex of either gender. Has been ever since I've known her. In fact I've brought up the idea of a male-female-female 3some in the past and she said the idea of going down on another woman made her want to puke.

So. Jess/Jesse what are you? Lover, wannabe lover, wing woman, or just a friend who may be causing trouble for our marriage? How do I find out? Is the VAR my best bet here?

Oh BTW my business deal went down exactly as hoped. Assuming the third party involved holds up his end of the bargain, this is going to make me a significant chunk of change. So something good came out of this day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostinthought61

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Looked up our phone records online. Called the number most likely to be Jesse. Got voice mail but it was the right number. So - Jesse is a woman. Actually the voice mail says Jess. Got a last name from that, looked her up online. She IS on my wife's FB account. She's also a ****. So the question now is whether or not my wife is involved with this woman or if they're just friends. If perhaps there is no relationship but maybe this woman wants one and is feeding into my wife's dissatisfaction with our marriage. *I'm guessing the latter simply because my wife is grossed out by gay sex of either gender. Has been ever since I've known her*. In fact I've brought up the idea of a male-female-female 3some in the past and she said the idea of going down on another woman made her want to puke.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Perhaps the lady doth protest too much"


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## jsmart

TDSC60 said:


> Are you not surprised by her current behavior as it relates to Jesse? Did you think your wife would use "John Boy" or "control freak" to describe you?
> 
> *Forget about what you think your wife would or would not do. If she is in an affair, she is not longer the loving wife and mother you thought she was, do not expect her to behave like she still is the person you married - she it no longer that person*.



This can't be stressed enough. Fisherman, if you were to read the 1000s of threads from BHs not only here but also on LS and SI, you would see the pattern that everyone is trying to get you to see. A women having an affair seems to lose her sanity. She'll be consumed with her OM, to the point of neglecting her children. She may be there physically but her heart and mind are with OM.

I've noticed that stay at home moms that go back to the work force after being away for many years are very vulnerable to jumping into an affair. You're wife fits the bill big time. 

Going out twice a week when she has twin 6 years at home is NOT normal. If her job at non-profit is going to be jeopardized because she's not going to a bar with others more than once a week, then she needs another job. These are people she's known for a few months but she rather hang with them than to come home to her twins. 

You know what kind of mothers are like that? The ones having affairs. Like I said above, they may be present but their hearts is not. And please don't tell us what a great mother she is, because a good mother doesn't betray her kids father with the possibility of blowing up their stable world.


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## TheTruthHurts

@Fishermanbear1984 frankly you don't sound like much of a catch. You refuse to talk to your W because she prefers texting and you can't have any of it. That alone can break your marriage.

You think she's fat and that disgusts you.

You talk about her in a condescending way.

Either you're just full of resentment or you're just not much of a husband. Can't tell which.

If you read His Needs Her Needs you might learn something about what she needs in the relationship. She probably values talking - texting to you - very much. She might need sex though that's typically a mans need.

I ALWAYS text back when my W texts me - I even step out of meetings to do so - because it only takes a few seconds, I like my W, and it's important for her to stay connected to me. Too many guys are clueless about this and ignore or shut off their W.

You go so far as to always keep your door shut to keep from being bothered. I WFH a lot and have a busy "important" job too, but I try not to be too d0uchy about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TX-SC

Given what you have said, this lesbian has set you up perfectly. If you protest about their friendship then you play right into the controlling husband role. If you do not put your foot down, she continues to turn your wife against you. Either way, you are heading for some seriously unhappy times ahead. I would recommend continuing to monitor the situation, but be the best husband you can be. Your wife is the only one who can save your marriage.


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## Fishermanbear1984

I just realized something. Either she's lying about using the park and ride, or she's catching a ride to her car on her nights out with her friends. Because the last bus from the city to the park and ride leaves at 6 pm and she's been staying in the city until 8 or 9 on those nights. 

I think I need to have a look at her texts with her mother since she's the one who has been enabling this behavior by agreeing to babysit late.

And in case no one has guessed - yes, she's out with them tonight. Despite yesterday's conversation. She texted me a little while ago to let me know and said "if you dont like it that's your problem and I'm not going to let you tell me what to do anymore I'm a grown woman not a child and I deserve to have some fun a few hours a week. You're never home anyway and the kids would rather be with nana and poppa than with you they told me so themselves." 

Wonder how she'd react if I told her to come home immediately or I will be serving her with divorce papers by the end of the week? Because that's how I'm feeling right about now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GuyInColorado

Go snoop and find where she is right now. I couldn't be sitting at home right now if it was me!

You need to put a VAR in her car tomorrow. Go to Walmart and buy one for $50.


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## The Middleman

GuyInColorado said:


> Go snoop and find where she is right now. I couldn't be sitting at home right now if it was me!


This is exactly what I would do if I were you. I would go to where ever she is and quietly check it out. It will either put you mind at ease or will confirm you worst nightmare, but sitting home wouldn't be an option for me.


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## Fishermanbear1984

CO - I went and brought the kids home after getting her texts, so I can't really go back out tonight. I've got to get them to bed as soon as they finish their bedtime snacks. Asked MIL where my wife was and she said she's having a night out with the girls. She apparently doesn't mind because she likes having the kids with her.

I'm guessing my wife has turned off Find my iPhone because I can't get a gps lock on her. Just showing a last known location as being at her work which she should have left 2 hours ago now.

If this state wouldn't consider it parental kidnapping, I'd pack the kids up and go home to my parents. But she'd probably have me arrested for it if she really hates me as much as she's acting like she does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishermanbear1984

Totally off the subject, but why are the date stamps wrong on all my posts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheTruthHurts

Just an observation. I get that you're mad, but your behavior does come off as very controlling. If you're playing right into her hand. Your drawing black-and-white conclusions about every step of the way. Take a deep breath, calm down. Look out for your own interests. Ideally, you want to look like the rational one and want her to look like the one that's acting out


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3putt

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Totally off the subject, but why are the date stamps wrong on all my posts?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Click on User CP at the top right of the board, then click on Edit Options to the left. Scroll down to change time stamp to your time zone.


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## TheTruthHurts

By the way if there is no affair and she is just acting out, then this is total is salvageable. You're young and relationships have stress point. Obviously the twins, the early pregnancy, the other issues are stress points. But you've got a relationship with her for life anyway, so you might consider calming down and playing The long game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MarriedDude

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> I just realized something. Either she's lying about using the park and ride, or she's catching a ride to her car on her nights out with her friends. Because the last bus from the city to the park and ride leaves at 6 pm and she's been staying in the city until 8 or 9 on those nights.
> 
> I think I need to have a look at her texts with her mother since she's the one who has been enabling this behavior by agreeing to babysit late.
> 
> And in case no one has guessed - yes, she's out with them tonight. Despite yesterday's conversation.* She texted me a little while ago to let me know and said "if you dont like it that's your problem and I'm not going to let you tell me what to do anymore I'm a grown woman not a child and I deserve to have some fun a few hours a week. You're never home anyway and the kids would rather be with nana and poppa than with you they told me so themselves." *
> 
> Wonder how she'd react if I told her to come home immediately or I will be serving her with divorce papers by the end of the week? Because that's how I'm feeling right about now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just serve her the papers, don't tell her in advance. DO NOT respond to that text. The divorce papers will either wake her up...or make her double down. Either way you have your answers....right then. 

And...don't involve her mom...what are you going to do??? Tell on her. Way to make her feel like a child. Treat her like an adult...make her enjoy consequences. 

If she wakes up and stops behaving like a child...get some professional counseling...for your marriage and both or yours sanity


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## Rubix Cubed

MarriedDude said:


> Just serve her the papers, don't tell her in advance. DO NOT respond to that text. The divorce papers will either wake her up...or make her double down. Either way you have your answers....right then.
> 
> And...don't involve her mom...what are you going to do??? Tell on her. Way to make her feel like a child. Treat her like an adult...make her enjoy consequences.
> 
> If she wakes up and stops behaving like a child...get some professional counseling...for your marriage and both or yours sanity


 ^This 1000 times ^
Do not tell her anything else you are going to do. Have her served, if later she seems to be committed to the marriage and you (she's certainly not now) then you can stop the process, but if she keeps acting out the way she has been you will make your life miserable.


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## Marc878

Lock your bedroom door and put her stuff on the couch


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## Fishermanbear1984

Thanks for the laugh Marc. Unfortunately in our house there are no doors on any of the rooms except the bathrooms 😁
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Celes

So Jesse is a woman. What's the big deal? Were any of the texts sexual in nature? You do come off as controlling to me. Why the big issue with her hanging out with coworkers from time to time? She's coming home at reasonable times too. 

Btw, I call my girl friends "babe", "honey" and "sweetie" all the time.


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## bandit.45

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> It guy - yes that's correct. But we didn't become exclusive until she was 18. And I know she was sleeping with other guys before we became exclusive because she admitted it. In fact she said it was my fault because I refused to have full intercourse with her until she graduated from high school (trust me, to a guy who wasn't getting anything at all before then, even the regular BJs were enough). On her 18th birthday she literally jumped me and told me if we didn't do it that night she was going to dump me. Needless to say we did it, and became exclusive from that point on. A year later a condom broke and she got pregnant. And yes, I know they're my kids, they look just like me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How romantic.


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## arbitrator

*Does a bear usually crap in the woods?

Let's see! The POSOM knows your name, and knows when you are in town or out of town, and knows when and when not to call ~ tell me: what do you think? Deception seems to be running rampant here!

Common sense tells me that he's probably getting his "Willie wet" on a regular basis whenever you're gone out of town!

Put a VAR in her car, visit with a good piranha family attorney to explore your legal and custodial rights, and for God's sake, please get yourself checked out by your MD, pronto, for the presence of STD's! *
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TX-SC

She certainly seems to be unhappily married right now. Unless she comes around and stops being so confrontational, you should just understand that she is pulling away from you and doesn't APPEAR to be interested in making you happy. Regardless of whether she is cheating, your marriage appears to be in trouble. 

You cannot save your marriage if she isn't interested in working with you on it. She seems confrontational right now. BTW, it's not uncommon for cheating wives to rewrite history to make it seem like you are the bad guy. 

Honestly, if I were you, I'd be Mr. Nice Guy until she files for divorce or you find out for sure she is cheating. Then you could go ahead and file. If she continues to act mean to you, then you may decide to file anyway.


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## JohnA

The Salvation Army is a chrstian based organization that deals with people in crissis. People who if strict boundries are not observed will quickly destroy the very people trying to help them. So I doubt the individuals involved running the mission would accept a relationship between her and person in crisis. They are well known for their work with alcoholics so I doubt if a group of employees who work for them hang out in bars, especially hotel bars. "avoid the near temptation of sin" is not a motto for them, it is who they are. 

Honest question: is she working for the SA, or is that part meant to throw her off the scent if she finds this thread? 30 posts you can ask oa mod (@MattMatt is one of many here) that can move it to te private members section. 

Her sexual history history screams FOO or CSA issues. 

Finally seek IC for yourself. You do sound borderline controlling. It is a fine line between expecting health boundaries and being controlling. Own you own issues.


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## Palodyne

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Looked up our phone records online. Called the number most likely to be Jesse. Got voice mail but it was the right number. So - Jesse is a woman. Actually the voice mail says Jess. Got a last name from that, looked her up online. She IS on my wife's FB account. She's also a ****. _Posted via Mobile Device_


 A **** is as much a threat as a man. This very night on SI there was a man that was astounded his seeming straight wife of 28 years was attracted to another woman. So don't take this lightly. This Jess is a massive threat to your marriage.



> She texted me a little while ago to let me know and said "if you dont like it that's your problem and I'm not going to let you tell me what to do anymore I'm a grown woman not a child and I deserve to have some fun a few hours a week. You're never home anyway and the kids would rather be with nana and poppa than with you they told me so themselves."


 You must make it known, that having a few hours of fun, doesn't entail hanging out with a lesbian that has become familiar enough to call her babe, hon, sweetie, and honey. And to call you John Boy, and Control Freak, and to set up secret meetings while you are out of town. 

True she is a grown woman!! And she can do what she wants to do!! But NOT AS YOUR WIFE!!!!!!! Tell her she is free to pursue her lesbian, straight, or simply fun desires, but not as your wife. You deserve better. Find yourself a good lawyer and file for divorce. Any woman that feels this way is a total loss and waste of time.


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## TaDor

I meant to reply yesterday, but fell asleep. I've caught up.

At first, I was going to say it's just EA. But with your update, PA may have likely started. The words she is using on you, don't they seem strange? "I'm a grown woman and I deserve fun" (so do you) that's cheater talk.
1 - stop using the term "****", just as using the c-word and f-word(gay) is rather insulting.

2 - your wife is about 25 years old... She has reached maturity. A new stage in her life and youre not part of it. After 24 or so is best to meet and think any marrying someone.

3 - just because you say your wife is disgusted by the idea of girl on girl action... It doesn't mean squat. Look up articles of married men having sex with other men off Craigslist behind thier wives back. Or politicians who vote against gay rights yet they are closeted homosexuals themselves.

4 - the ride & park update means your wife is spending lots of time with her friend. Plus hey attitude with you and hiding this friend from you ARE major red flags. Which takes us to:

5 - Get control of yourself. I myself screwed up a lot because I found this place too late and had several confrontations with my wayward wife. You lose points in being upset with her weight but whatever. I've gained weight and I am working on myself while she is still 103lbs after our child.

But since you want out and she wants out... What is there to save? Go CIA mode and plan your file for divorce. No sex if possible. Get a pi to follow her and her friend. You already know what day they do this. You want more evidence as grounds for your divorce.

6 - can you work where your parents live? If you're both renting then it's easy to leave. Look up your rights. As it turns out in many states, you can do the following:. Take your kids to other state with your parents and then file for divorce and child custody. Don't wait for her to file against you. Dont keep her from her kids. But make sure you have a lawyer to confirm this... Or that moving the kids will count against you. (Cheating, drinking, etc)

Let your wife have her lover. File and have your own bank account before your money comes in.

7 - there are people here who are more experienced for even better advice.


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## straightshooter

Fisher,

First, glad you business deal went well. Now for the **** that is not going well.

We all know that your wife will turn off the Find My I Phone. That is why you have been told to use the VAR and to also put a GPS on her car. You speculated she is not taking her car because of train schedule. And that means if you are correct she is ALONE in the car with SOMEONE taking her back to her car.

Next, forget what she told you or said about lesbian or gay sex. You would be amazed at how many women who cheat use the most derogatory language known to man when they are speaking about someone else's infidelity. And remember, before they do it the first time, the overwhelming number would make the statement that "I can't believe I would do this". If she's cheating with a lesbian is that OK???? SHE IS CHEATING WITH SOMEONE and she does not give a **** enough about you not to tell you to go fly a kite if you do not like it.

I'd also not pay attention to the crap about you being controlling. I guess you are supposed to sit home and let your wife have an affair or be a party girl multiple times a week and sit in the corner like a good little boy. That is the bull **** narrative out there now that anything women want to do is all "good old girl fun" and any man who is not OK with every bit if it is just a control freak.
There is nothing wrong with a GNO once in a while providing she is not acting like it is Spring Break or cheating . Not your situation here, and until you find out what good ole Jess is up to you need to stay on course to find out. If you read books on infidelity by the way, including a very popular one called "Not Just Friends", you will see clearly that after the workplace, most experts consider these GNO or BNO if overdone and constant to be the other most common breeding. Grounds of affairs for a number of reasons. And again, I am not tal,ing about women going out to dinner with their friends once in a while. I AM talking about going out to party in sexually charfged co ed environments on a regular basis with people who you do not know or have any reason to trust.

So to recap

(1) you have marital problems not being addressed 
(2) your wife has decided she is going to be a single woman when you are not around and now even when you are around
(3) she is shutting you out of her personal life completely
(4) she is being defiant of any of your concerns and shows no respect to you

And you are supposed to accept this behavior or you are "controlling". I THINK NOT my friend. 

Her behavior, with the help of her mother, makes it imperative that either you are going to "suck it up" and live like this or it is time to act.

I suggest you do as some others have told you and have divorce papers drawn up and served to her. You can stop it at any time but it will tell her clearly that the time for her to be married and single at the same time is over and there is a finite time limit for her to either go "all in" to reconcile with you, seek therapy if you want to, or that the consequenquences will become real.

But before you do anything you MUST find out what is actually going on. Nice job on finding out who Jess is. Now look back at how clueless you were when you first posted and congratulate yourself on taking steps in the right direction. Keep at it and you will resolve this mess.


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## She'sStillGotIt

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> She also says she only goes when I'm away because when I'm home she would rather be at home with us than out with them. But if she's been doing this for 3 months why hasn't she told me about it?
> 
> So how do I go about determining who Jesse is? I'm guessing if she is hiding something, she won't just leave her phone lying around anymore.


LOL. What a crock. What she really means is that she's afraid to be out with her new 'friend' when you're in town because you might go out looking for her - and that wouldn't be good. That's obviously why they wait until the 'control freak' is out of town.

And I think "Jesse" is a lot more than just a 'friend,' or she wouldn't have hidden her from you all this time.

The writing is on the wall.


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## Fishermanbear1984

She came home about 10:30 last night. I'm not going to go into detail because it's not worth it but we had a huge fight followed by both of us agreeing we want a divorce. She swears she's not cheating but said she's seriously considered it because she wants more sexually than I give her. Which is true. She's so high D she makes Hugh Hefner look celibate. She also said that Jess is just a friend but admitted that she's a man hater so I'm guessing she helped instigate this. She got pretty nasty, said she hated me, wished she'd never met me, I've ruined her life, I'm a failure as a husband and as a father and the only thing I've been good for is a paycheck. I'll admit once she started throwing insults I started throwing them right back. Felt good at the time, kind of ashamed of myself this morning that I stooped to her childish level. She'd better not change her mind though. After the **** she said to me last night, there's no going back.

She wants to do the quickest no fault divorce possible but our state requires a one year waiting period so I guess we're stuck with that. I'm going to stay in our rental house, she's going to take the kids and move in with her parents. She says I can see them whenever I want but considering how much I travel it does make sense for them to live primarily with her. It will be interesting to see how she spins this to her family. Although they've never liked me anyway.

My head is spinning. This has all happened so fast I feel like I'm living in an alternate universe. And yet when I look back over the past few years of our life together I can't say that I'm even surprised. It's rather sad that neither one of us sees anything good enough in each other to want to put any effort into saving it.

I feel like I've wasted 6 years of my life. I wish I'd just agreed to pay her child support without marriage back then since I'm going to end up doing so anyway. With my schedule, I still could have seen the twins almost as much as I have.

I wish her luck. Won't be easy to find another walking paycheck with two kids in tow. And her parents are very conservative - they're not going to enable her bringing men home overnight. Oh well she's already found a hotel to hang out in, right? Guess it's not my problem anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fishermanbear1984

Oh hey and kudos to whoever it was who picked up on the Salvation Army thing. Doesn't matter but she works at a similar company but it's not religion based it's an ultra liberal environmental organization. Probably half her coworker's belong to the LGBT community. She thinks it's cool but honestly the people I've met are just a bunch of boring tree huggers and leftover hippies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

*Betcha Ol' Jess knows what hotel and and room number that she's occupying!

Hell, he probably has his own personal electronic key tucked away in his wallet!

Get to your lawyers office and end this charade of a marriage ASAP! You deserve far better out of life with someone who will truly love you for who you are!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ABHale

I think this is for the best. Hope things go well. 

You might want to get a moderator to move your thread to the going through divorce side. 

Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## straightshooter

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> She came home about 10:30 last night. I'm not going to go into detail because it's not worth it but we had a huge fight followed by both of us agreeing we want a divorce. She swears she's not cheating but said she's seriously considered it because she wants more sexually than I give her. Which is true. She's so high D she makes Hugh Hefner look celibate. She also said that Jess is just a friend but admitted that she's a man hater so I'm guessing she helped instigate this. She got pretty nasty, said she hated me, wished she'd never met me, I've ruined her life, I'm a failure as a husband and as a father and the only thing I've been good for is a paycheck. I'll admit once she started throwing insults I started throwing them right back. Felt good at the time, kind of ashamed of myself this morning that I stooped to her childish level. She'd better not change her mind though. After the **** she said to me last night, there's no going back.
> 
> She wants to do the quickest no fault divorce possible but our state requires a one year waiting period so I guess we're stuck with that. I'm going to stay in our rental house, she's going to take the kids and move in with her parents. She says I can see them whenever I want but considering how much I travel it does make sense for them to live primarily with her. It will be interesting to see how she spins this to her family. Although they've never liked me anyway.
> 
> My head is spinning. This has all happened so fast I feel like I'm living in an alternate universe. And yet when I look back over the past few years of our life together I can't say that I'm even surprised. It's rather sad that neither one of us sees anything good enough in each other to want to put any effort into saving it.
> 
> I feel like I've wasted 6 years of my life. I wish I'd just agreed to pay her child support without marriage back then since I'm going to end up doing so anyway. With my schedule, I still could have seen the twins almost as much as I have.
> 
> I wish her luck. Won't be easy to find another walking paycheck with two kids in tow. And her parents are very conservative - they're not going to enable her bringing men home overnight. Oh well she's already found a hotel to hang out in, right? Guess it's not my problem anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fisher

So much for the argument that this was all your imagination and that you are "controlling". Now make like you are a NASCAR driver and start your engine into gear and proceed at warp speed to get rid of her. There was no way her behavior could have resulted in any other outcome. And don't believe the crap about her not cheating, not that it matters now.


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## Fishermanbear1984

Arbitrator - Jess is female. This has been confirmed.

I think our whole marriage was a sham really. She got pregnant because I insisted on using an expired condom rather than stopping. I "made it right" by marrying her but since we weren't in love it probably would have been far better had I simply agreed to support her and the twins. She pretty much told me she would have been happier as a single mom rather than stuck with me the past several years. At least she would have been free to find someone who did make her happy. She doesnt seem in the least bit upset about all of this. In fact if anything she seems like she's glad it's over. She makes me wonder if I'm really as bad as she claims that I am.

She's already started packing. I can hear her in the kids room banging drawers and shifting stuff around. Says she intends to be out by the end of the day. This place is going to feel very empty. I'll probably start looking for a one bedroom or a studio in the city once she's done getting all her stuff out.

Wonder how much time she'll spend at the bar once she has 2 full time babysitters? I wonder how long it will take for her parents to realize just how immature and irresponsible she's become since she started this job?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy

Secure your finances before she empties them!! Banks accounts, credit cards....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tropicalbeachiwish

It's sounds like this is for the best though. You guys weren't compatible and married for the wrong reason (but with good intention). Hire a lawyer and get that 1 year clock officially ticking. Get advice on the finances from your attorney.


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## Roselyn

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> She came home about 10:30 last night. I'm not going to go into detail because it's not worth it but we had a huge fight followed by both of us agreeing we want a divorce. She swears she's not cheating but said she's seriously considered it because she wants more sexually than I give her. Which is true. She's so high D she makes Hugh Hefner look celibate. She also said that Jess is just a friend but admitted that she's a man hater so I'm guessing she helped instigate this. She got pretty nasty, said she hated me, wished she'd never met me, I've ruined her life, I'm a failure as a husband and as a father and the only thing I've been good for is a paycheck. I'll admit once she started throwing insults I started throwing them right back. Felt good at the time, kind of ashamed of myself this morning that I stooped to her childish level. She'd better not change her mind though. After the **** she said to me last night, there's no going back.
> 
> She wants to do the quickest no fault divorce possible but our state requires a one year waiting period so I guess we're stuck with that. I'm going to stay in our rental house, she's going to take the kids and move in with her parents. She says I can see them whenever I want but considering how much I travel it does make sense for them to live primarily with her. It will be interesting to see how she spins this to her family. Although they've never liked me anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She showed you her full hand. She married you only as a paycheck to her. Her family doesn't like you either. See your lawyer and get your rights in order. Sorry that you waited so long.


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## ButtPunch

Tobyboy said:


> Secure your finances before she empties them!! Banks accounts, credit cards....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do it now!


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## TX-SC

Time for you to detach from her. You are concerning yourself too much with what she will be doing. Separate, see the kids when you can, start the D process, and move on with your life.


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## badmemory

It's obvious to me that your wife is looking for an exit affair, and the lesbian is her wing man. If she's not already having an A, it's just a matter of time. 

But you no longer putting up with her gas lighting; is putting a crimp in her plans. So she's now ready to pull the trigger on D because you have the unmitigated gall to insist on reasonable marital boundaries.

In the unlikely event she ever wants to R; don't do it. Put her in your rear view mirror. You're much better off without her.


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## straightshooter

*


Tobyboy said:



Secure your finances before she empties them!! Banks accounts, credit cards....
Posted via Mobile Device

Click to expand...

*


Get to your attorney. In many places, you are NOT responsible for any of her debts once you have filed. Do not sit there and not only let her play single mom at your expense.


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## Fishermanbear1984

Well she's gone for now. Stopped on her way out the door and said she'd waive child support and alimony if I would agree to waive custody/visitation and just get the hell out of their lives. I asked her if she was afraid it would come out that the kids weren't mine and she said no she just doesn't want me screwing up their lives like I did hers. She told me I'd better do some serious soul searching before I even think about getting into another relationship because according to her I don't even realize what a controlling and even abusive person I am. Is this what's called rewriting history? Because I've never laid a hand on her in anger.

Should I get the kids DNA tested? They do look so much like me it's almost funny. Even my daughter. Short, scrawny, dark hair, dark eyes while my wife is a big boned blonde.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheTruthHurts

Well if you say your marriage was a sham I'll take your word for it. We have a couple single moms in our very conservative neighborhood. One is now about 40 but she still lives at home and her son - a good kid - is at college. The other had her baby a few years ago but is now back in college and raising her kid.

In both cases the guys vanished. Which really sucks for the kids - they checked out early and have never been in the kids lives.

You made the other choice, and as much as it looks like it sucks, I bet you would have regretted not having known your kids.

So just focus on the kids and being a great dad. If you weren't there much in the past, you can change that and you should adjust your priorities accordingly.

Your STBXW will likely go overboard on the partying - she may or may not hook up but will certainly at least pretend to in order to rub your nose in it. Rise above that - your kids are the focus. They need a stable mom so don't act in a way that she will react to and don't bait her- she sounds like she's hanging by a thread.

You both seem to have regretted the forced marriage and I suspect took it out on each other. Don't date for a while and get your head in a better place. Your next relationships has to include more respect for each other. There is someone out there who will cherish you, but you also have to rethink your priorities so you're available for the relationship. By your texts it seems like that's an area to work on.

Agree with talking to an attorney and protecting your assets


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GuyInColorado

Your kids will be fine. I divorced earlier this year and my kids were 6 and 4. They are doing just fine, even better if you ask me. They now no longer see us being unloving and fighting. They get to see me in a real loving relationship. They have their mom and another awesome woman who loves them as well. Soon, they'll have two moms who would do anything for them. It sucks to only see them 3 days a week, but it's bittersweet too. I get more time to myself when I don't have them, so can go on little trips, sports games, etc and not have to worry about a babysitter when they are with their mom.

Definitely get your finances lined up today. She could take 100% of your cash right now and you'd be SOL. Get 50% of it out of the joint accounts immediately. You need to cancel any shared credit cards or lines of credit today. I failed to do this and it cost me around $5,000 in the end.

I can't tell you what to do about custody. No alimony/child support is definitely appealing. I'm paying around $1,000 a month towards CS and daycare costs. But I could never not see my kids and not be active in their lives. Like the saying goes... "Why does divorce cost so much? Because it's worth it!!"

Once your're separated/divorced, you'll start noticing how the majority of married people are miserable and trapped in loveless/sexless/meaningless marriages. You'll start to feel sorry for people who are married! Marriage is one of the biggest shams ever. Probably created by one of the man made religions to further control people. It would be interesting to know the history of marriage, but I have better things to do. And yes, I'll probably get married again because desirable women want that commitment (living together, buying expensive things together, etc). But I won't hesitate to end it quickly if things go south.


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## Ckone1800

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Well she's gone for now. Stopped on her way out the door and said she'd waive child support and alimony if I would agree to waive custody/visitation and just get the hell out of their lives. I asked her if she was afraid it would come out that the kids weren't mine and she said no she just doesn't want me screwing up their lives like I did hers. She told me I'd better do some serious soul searching before I even think about getting into another relationship because according to her I don't even realize what a controlling and even abusive person I am. Is this what's called rewriting history? Because I've never laid a hand on her in anger.
> 
> 
> 
> Should I get the kids DNA tested? They do look so much like me it's almost funny. Even my daughter. Short, scrawny, dark hair, dark eyes while my wife is a big boned blonde.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I'm sorry, this stinks. 

I would suggest a paternity test, for your own sake. 

From what I read by your posts, you do not seem at all like she is telling you. 

My WW said some very similar things to me when she was having her affair, but not so hateful and angry. It was more of a way to justify her actions to herself. 

It is rewriting history and can make you begin to believe it. Once you realize what is happening, you can then put all of that stuff to rest, as you're likely a very normal person. 

My WW and I were not in love when we married either, but we didn't know it. I really wish you the best. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Idyit

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Arbitrator - Jess is female. This has been confirmed.
> 
> I think our whole marriage was a sham really. She got pregnant because I insisted on using an expired condom rather than stopping. I "made it right" by marrying her but since we weren't in love it probably would have been far better had I simply agreed to support her and the twins. She pretty much told me she would have been happier as a single mom rather than stuck with me the past several years. At least she would have been free to find someone who did make her happy. She doesnt seem in the least bit upset about all of this. In fact if anything she seems like she's glad it's over. *She makes me wonder if I'm really as bad as she claims that I am.*
> 
> She's already started packing. I can hear her in the kids room banging drawers and shifting stuff around. Says she intends to be out by the end of the day. This place is going to feel very empty. I'll probably start looking for a one bedroom or a studio in the city once she's done getting all her stuff out.
> 
> Wonder how much time she'll spend at the bar once she has 2 full time babysitters? I wonder how long it will take for her parents to realize just how immature and irresponsible she's become since she started this job?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @Fishermanbear1984 I feel you man. My marriage of almost 20 years is spiraling and likely in the same direction as yours. Sadness and loss can easily overwhelm you if you let it. It's pretty normal actually. Looking at your side of the street and critically assessing yourself is a strong positive though.

The bolded above: Maybe you are that bad. Maybe not. Maybe she is really that bad.... It's likely neither but you are already set up for improvement. Figure out what you did to deteriorate your marriage. Concentrate on shaping yourself into a better man. I often suggest a couple of things to shove you in that direction. 

Source one - the 180. You really need this to detach and find some peace. Sorry I don't have a link handy but someone will step up and provide it.

Source two - Don't know if this is actually you but doesn't hurt to take a look. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...zzbFQJjd7V2HMGvGw&sig2=P6jmenkKQTM7eGFUc2J7dA 

Life will continue and it can be so much fuller and rewarding than you've experienced so far.

~ Passio


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## badmemory

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Well she's gone for now. Stopped on her way out the door and said she'd waive child support and alimony if I would agree to waive custody/visitation and just get the hell out of their lives.


I hope you're smart enough not to agree to that. What kind of mother would deprive her kids of seeing their father? I'll tell you - a POS mother. What kind of father would be OK with that? Same thing. Tell her she can stick that where the sun don't shine.

Even if she thinks she really means that now, what's more likely to happen; is you won't see your kids *and* you'll be paying child support. She'll be back for it, and she'll get it - because your kids are legally entitled to it and will need it.

Lawyer up and get a custody agreement.


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## JohnA

Your wife may be right. You need a good IC, books, and friends to explore this. You where a 22 year old guy dating a promiscuous 16 year old girl from an unstable family. Your spent two years engaging in oral sex, not intercourse because that would be wrong, in an open relationship from her end. 

I touched on another issues besides the SA, her FOO and possible CSA. Here are some interesting sites https://samruck2.wordpress.com/, https://samruck2.wordpress.com/. Are the Children of a BPD Parent Likely to Suffer Emotional Abuse? - BPDFamily Video. Read the BPD site carefully not because your wife has BPD but many of the high risk parenting factors are present in your childrens life. 

You have a long road ahead of you becoming a better father and spouse. Make a commitment to take it.


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## Fishermanbear1984

I'm not interested in another relationship. I think I could happily go through the rest of my life without any involvement deeper than a ONS.

She's going to have a hard time getting her hands on any of the money. All accounts are in my name only. She proved early on she couldn't be trusted with spending and I gave her a cash allowance and nothing more. Past that point she had to come to me for any extras. Plus I'm self-employed and most of my income is commission. I've always felt the need to save in the good times to have enough during the hard times. Now that she's working maybe she'll finally start to understand that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TDSC60

Do not take her word on anything. Get a lawyer. Most States that have a required cooling down or separation period prior to divorce need it to in writing and signed by both parties. Kids visitation and finances will need to be addressed in this agreement to protect the kids.

Most lawyers will offer a free initial visit. Get moving while she is pissed and wants to move fast.


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## Fishermanbear1984

I've already contacted my lawyer and asked him to set me up an appointment with a divorce lawyer. I've also started him looking into what she can reasonably expect from me financially. We haven't been married 10 years so she apparently can't get alimony in this state. Nor can she touch my business because it has no physical assets only intellectual assets. The most important things I own are my contacts network and my reputation in the business world. She can't touch that and if she's smart she won't try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cowboy2

If I were you I'd count my blessings and put her in your rear view mirror ASAP.

You are young and it was only 6 years of your life. If you're smart you'll learn from this experience.

Good luck.


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## Popcorn2015

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> makes me wonder about her attraction to me since I don't look anything like any of these guys. Actually I'm pretty much a short scrawny geek.


I bet you make good money.


----------



## Popcorn2015

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> said she'd waive child support and alimony if I would agree to waive custody/visitation and just get the hell out of their lives.


First of all, why the hell would you agree to this if they are really your kids? (Get the DNA tests, of course)

Secondly, this doesn't actually work, even if you want it to. She can't sign child support away. At some point in the future, she'll get on welfare food stamps section 8 etc, and then the government is going to come after you to start paying child support so the rest of us taxpayers don't have to pay for your kids. Or her parents, friends, and lover(s) will tell her to come after you for the big bucks. 

So you'll have to pay support AND (this is the nasty part) since you'll have been an absentee father for however many years in the interim, the judge is going to give you little or no custody. Which maximizes the amount of support you have to pay.

If you don't believe me, ask your lawyer.

Also get the kids DNA tested. You don't need to warn her or get her permission for that. Buy the kit, do the swabs.


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## Fishermanbear1984

Popcorn - if there's one thing I know for sure about her, it's that she'll never go on public assistance! She's far too proud to ever stand in a grocery line pulling out food stamps. Not to mention she looks down on welfare recipients big time. Thinks they're all basically lazy good for nothing pond scum. She gets that from her dad. Her whole family though is very anti public assistance for anyone other than the elderly and the disabled.

You are right with your earlier post though. I do make good money. I'm an independent broker and I'm very good at what I do. I'm also a semi professional poker player, and I do pretty well at that as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme

I think you wife IS having and affair and is justifying by telling you how awful you were. You supported her for years while she stayed and home right, you don't sound that bad to me? I bet that was something she wanted at least at first. I suspect once she can't go out every night she will be singing a different tune. Her girlfriend is probably telling her how awful you are. No married woman should be hanging out at bars every night, that is just not appropriate, I think even in a long term relationship. Don't give up visitation of your daughters they need a father. If they are not yours then it's up to you, but they still need a father.


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## jsmart

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Well she's gone for now. Stopped on her way out the door and said she'd waive child support and alimony if I would agree to waive custody/visitation and just get the hell out of their lives. I asked her if she was afraid it would come out that the kids weren't mine and she said no she just doesn't want me screwing up their lives like I did hers. She told me I'd better do some serious soul searching before I even think about getting into another relationship because according to her I don't even realize what a controlling and even abusive person I am. Is this what's called rewriting history? Because I've never laid a hand on her in anger.
> 
> Should I get the kids DNA tested? They do look so much like me it's almost funny. Even my daughter. Short, scrawny, dark hair, dark eyes while my wife is a big boned blonde.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What a nasty woman. definitely talking like her mind has been poisoned by some man hating feminist. It's amazing how vile they become once they detach. Not sure if this Jess is a lesbian trying to steal a woman or just a corruptor that convinces married women that they're being oppressed.

Her comment about not wanting any child support if you just don't see the kids has my spider senses tingling. Being that she was community property while you guys first started dating, could there be a chance that she just hooked up with you because of your resources could help support some bad boys demon spawn. DEFINITELY GET THE DNA DONE.

If they're your daughters, then you need to step up and be involved in their lives. With her past history and even current conduct, she's probably be like the typical divorcee and run through so many men before finds her next sucker. Yea, not a great example for the twins but at least she's _happy._


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## Thor

Just to echo an important point made above - child support is automatic by law. She cannot waive it. Chances are the court will automatically impose it. That is how it works here. She might make an unofficial agreement to let you not pay it, but you are still legally required to pay it. Meaning, she can come back later and demand all back monies due!

Use a good lawyer. Don't agree to anything or sign anything until you get your lawyer's approval.


----------



## Palodyne

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> She also said that Jess is just a friend but admitted that she's a man hater so I'm guessing she helped instigate this. She got pretty nasty, said she hated me, wished she'd never met me, I've ruined her life, I'm a failure as a husband and as a father and the only thing I've been good for is a paycheck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Jess is just a friend? NO WAY IN HELL!! She is either your wife's lover, or she is, at least, an ENEMY of the marriage. She is an evil influence introduced into your family. Either way she has influenced your wife's thinking to the point of hating you. If she can be manipulated that easily, you are better off without her.

Stop worrying about her. Let Jess worry about how she will fair in this world. After all, that man hating lesbian walked her into this position, so you no longer have that worry. Your only worry are the twins, once you confirm they are yours. Take care of them, and leave her to Jess. I bet when she starts looking to Jess for help with her new problems, Jess will disappear. Then your EX will know she was played for the fool.

For now, protect yourself and your assets. Once she realizes the reality of things she is going to come after your money. Get a lawyer and protect yourself. And as for staying single. My fiancé cheated on me 25 years ago, I have been single ever since. It isn't that bad. Good fortune to you.


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## TDSC60

With your wife's history of multiple sexual partners, DNA test of the twins is a good idea.


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## Satya

Jesse is likely grooming your wife. 

Do not do anything, leave the house, or put anything in writing before you talk to your lawyer.


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## Fishermanbear1984

On my way out of town for 5 days. Can't be helped the travel is a big part of what I do. Will see a lawyer next week.

Satya - I plan to stay at the house until the lease expires which I believe is in March. Then I'm going to let it go it's way to big for just me.

I'll DNA the kids since everyone seems to think it's a big deal but honestly if you saw a picture of me with them, you'd understand why I don't doubt that they are mine. They are fraternal twins (boy/girl) but they look just like each other and they look just like me. More's the pity for them. I'm glad they have each other because if they end up anything like me they won't have many friends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostinthought61

Fisher, that last statement you made, has got to stop, stop cutting yourself down, especially with humor....you need to change your out look and learn to make friends...."no man is an island"


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## tropicalbeachiwish

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> I'm glad they have each other because if they end up anything like me they won't have many friends.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This statement is so sad. Please don't say things like this. It's not attractive. Keep your head up high and move forward. 

Safe travels


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## RideofmyLife

I'm one of those females that calls my two best friends "babe"


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## Evinrude58

Sir,
I just want to say that how attractive you are in many ways has little to do with appearance. I'm not a handsome guy, I'm bald, I don't have striking features. But I'm not hugely overweight. 
I have women (that I date long term and care about) that are far more attractive than I think I am tell me constantly how much they like my body and look at me all the time and tell me how handsome I am. It kind of freaks me out, because I know it ain't so. 
BUT, they think I am, because they are "in love" with me, whatever that means.

You are not overweight, and that's attractive. You are smart, that's hugely attractive to some women. You have a good job-- again, hugely attractive.

Work on one thing--- confidence in yourself as a person. Have an IDGAF attitude in your dating. I assure you there are plenty of women that would jump at the chance to date you. Make them earn it. Treat them like you'd like to be treated, and nothing more. Don't allow them to treat you in a way that you don't feel appreciated. They will love you for it.

I've fallen in love with one, but stupidly let her start treating me badly. Now I'm likely to lose that relationship because of my own weakness. Don't be weak. Be strong. It IS a decision.

Right now you are mentally weak and feel badly about yourself. But you can move forward and get out of that.
I'd say think positively, but I think that's a result of moving forward in several ways of your life and as a result, you start thinking differently. So I will just urge you to make some changes in your life in any way that you've wanted to in the past. IT WILL make a difference.
Good luck,


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## Fishermanbear1984

You guys familiar with Paul Simon? The late senator, not the singer. That's what I look like. I could be his son. But unfortunately without the charismatic personality that got him where he was despite his looks. 

Women don't want me. Men assume I'm a loser. My one asset is an extreme business acumen. I win at business deals and at the card table. My ability to make money "won" me my attractive wife. In the end it obviously wasn't enough to keep her.

I have lived with what I am long enough to have resigned myself to it. I don't think I will ever again be able to trust that any woman would want me for anything other than my money. It's easier to be alone than to always wonder if people are being polite to my face and laughing at me behind my back because I'm both physically unattractive and socially awkward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naiveonedave

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> You guys familiar with Paul Simon? The late senator, not the singer. That's what I look like. I could be his son. But unfortunately without the charismatic personality that got him where he was despite his looks.
> 
> Women don't want me. Men assume I'm a loser. My one asset is an extreme business acumen. I win at business deals and at the card table. My ability to make money "won" me my attractive wife. In the end it obviously wasn't enough to keep her.
> 
> I have lived with what I am long enough to have resigned myself to it. I don't think I will ever again be able to trust that any woman would want me for anything other than my money. It's easier to be alone than to always wonder if people are being polite to my face and laughing at me behind my back because I'm both physically unattractive and socially awkward.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


wrong. You need to be positive. Work on yourself. Get into better shape and develop the IDGAF attitude. 

Your W is broken, it has nothing to do with you that she cheated. Forget that bs, her affair is 110% on her.

Trust in women will come back, most are good people, you just happened to choose unwisely this time. GET SOME IC, like yesterday.


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## Evinrude58

Well partner, if you've got money, then enjoy your life and forget cheating, crappy women.
You can travel the world and have all the beautiful women you want. There's lots of women that want a little security and would appreciate you if you're a good guy. You just have to figure out how to meet them. Travel, internet, etc.

You know your good traits. You know your bad ones. Turn your attention to making yourself happy. It's a cinch that this woman you're married to isn't going to make you happy anymore. But she's not the only woman in the world. YOU FOUND HER!!!!!
By golly you can find another, and the key is that YOU DON'T HAVE TO MARRY THEM!!!!!

Remember, there are lots of people that would rather have your brains and business skill and money than their mediocre looks. 

You are not beaten! You just feel that way now because you're letting your wife beat on you emotionally. Hell, I did too. Lots of us did. It will get better, I promise. But move forward, don't sit there and stew in it. Then it won't get better, it'll get worse. Do something to fix your happiness. It doesn't matter what, just do something.


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## soccermom2three

I'll never understand the "DNA the kids" advice. How does that change anything? He's raised and loved them for 6 years, he will still consider himself their father. Well, unless he's evil and cruel or has a personality disorder of some sort. Oh, and he will still have to pay child support.

I don't know, this advice always seems like a slap in the face to all fathers that adopted their children. That they don't love their children as deeply as bio dads love their children.


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## farsidejunky

It is as much symbolic as it is to get to the truth. It sends a huge message to the WW just how much trust has been damaged. The waywards response to the test being done is a way to measure remorse.


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## soccermom2three

farsidejunky said:


> It is as much symbolic as it is to get to the truth. It sends a huge message to the WW just how much trust has been damaged. The waywards response to the test being done is a way to measure remorse.


At the expense of the children? What if it comes back negative? The WW will have a field day with that information. "Dad didn't think you were his kids so he had you DNA tested!"


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## BetrayedDad

Thor said:


> Just to echo an important point made above - child support is automatic by law. She cannot waive it. Chances are the court will automatically impose it. That is how it works here. She might make an unofficial agreement to let you not pay it, but you are still legally required to pay it. Meaning, she can come back later and demand all back monies due!
> 
> Use a good lawyer. Don't agree to anything or sign anything until you get your lawyer's approval.


Depends on the state and/or the judge. I had child support waived in my final divorce. We have no legal requirement atm.

Unless you get a real a$$hole judge, if you both agree to waive child support then an order won't be issued.

That's not to say later down the road the ex can't change her mind. She always has the option to file for it.


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## GuyInColorado

You're being way too hard on yourself. If you're fit, you are ahead of all of the other guys by 70%. Yeah, 70% of the guys out there have a gut or man boobs. 

Just hit the gym hard and build muscle. Put all of your energy into working out. You're confidence will go way up once you get defined arms, lats, shoulders, calves, and chest. I separated/divorced back in January this year and have been going to the gym 4x a week since. It's a great place to release some stress and rock out to some music. 

Or you can always be like Charlie Sheen... "I don't pay them for sex, I pay them to leave!".

If you haven't already, read No More Mr. Nice Guy. Google for a free PDF version. It's a quick 2 hour read.


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## Popcorn2015

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Popcorn - if there's one thing I know for sure about her, it's that she'll never go on public assistance! She's far too proud to ever stand in a grocery line pulling out food stamps.


Yeah and the other thing you knew for sure about her is she would never cheat...?

Food stamps are a credit card now by the way. Nobody notices or cares.

Also, if she REALLY would never go on food stamps, that makes it even more likely that she will come after your for support and back support when money gets tight. And you will be sitting there dead in the water as the dad who abandoned his (?) kids.


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## drifter777

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> You guys familiar with Paul Simon? The late senator, not the singer. That's what I look like. I could be his son. But unfortunately without the charismatic personality that got him where he was despite his looks.
> 
> Women don't want me. Men assume I'm a loser. My one asset is an extreme business acumen. I win at business deals and at the card table. My ability to make money "won" me my attractive wife. In the end it obviously wasn't enough to keep her.
> 
> I have lived with what I am long enough to have resigned myself to it. I don't think I will ever again be able to trust that any woman would want me for anything other than my money. It's easier to be alone than to always wonder if people are being polite to my face and laughing at me behind my back because I'm both physically unattractive and socially awkward.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hate to think that all you say here to put yourself down is true, but I understand depression and that this is honestly the way you feel about yourself. Remember that you are going through maybe the worst time, emotionally, in your life and that it takes a toll. Recovering your marriage is likely impossible but recovering from her betrayal is something worth working on. You have the twins to think about and they deserve a father who hasn't been emasculated by their mother.

Get into counseling as soon as you can - you need someone in your corner who has the experience to help guide you though this thing. 

I think divorcing her and ending all unnecessary contact with her will begin rebuilding your self-esteem immediately. Making a decision like this and taking positive action to better yourself is the first step in recovery and you need to take it.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> You guys familiar with Paul Simon? The late senator, not the singer. That's what I look like. I could be his son. But unfortunately without the charismatic personality that got him where he was despite his looks.
> 
> Women don't want me. Men assume I'm a loser. My one asset is an extreme business acumen. I win at business deals and at the card table. My ability to make money "won" me my attractive wife. In the end it obviously wasn't enough to keep her.
> 
> I have lived with what I am long enough to have resigned myself to it. I don't think I will ever again be able to trust that any woman would want me for anything other than my money. It's easier to be alone than to always wonder if people are being polite to my face and laughing at me behind my back because I'm both physically unattractive and socially awkward.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am going to give you some advice sir. First and foremost I can relate to how you feel, but you should have some confidence in yourself. Do not let her get under your skin. I am not saying this in a jocular manner but I strongly encourage you to read a book called "Grow a Pair". One of the best books I ever read. Secondly, read up on the 180. Best thing you can do. Do not a doormat for this sorry excuse of a woman. Stand your ground with her. That is an order sir. Take no shyt from her. You have to be indifferent.

Quit feeling sorry for yourself and count your blessings. You are at a low point, but this is only a temporary place in your life. It can and will get better. My guess is when she is out of your life you are going to wonder why you did not dump her sooner. It will be better. 

You seem to have self esteem issues so get your ass to a counselor and get out of your funk and learn to live life. I know you can do it if you put your mind to it and get help. I am reading between the lines and I think your stbxw needs her damn attitude adjusted. Never quit. Never surrender.


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## TaDor

Jess is grooming if not already having sex with your wife. There are lesbians who actively get off on stealing women from their men.

One such woman filled my wife's thoughts about what a "BAD CONTROLLING MAN" I am to my wife. That B- has been kicked out of our lives and other friends of my wife have defriended her (without request me from me).

This biz of not paying child support and moving out with your kids is a screw over. It can be used against you... moving out, not fighting for custody.

Why pay your wife when you can pay for a nanny or babysitter?
And women love smart guys. A friend of mine is 65. He picks up women in their 20s. He's not rich or handsome...

Good luck


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## melobious

I really think you need to look at yourself, you do seem controlling to me and maybe slightly abusive without knowing it

You talk to her like she is a child

You call her fat and she needs to lose weight

You watch her spending and give her an allowance 

You don't want to have sex with 
Her

Your never home, and you barely spend time with the kids. 

You refuse to use text even though you know she prefers text,

This seems all about you.

You didn't even confirm jesse was a make or female just told her she can't go out with her anymore. 

I realize you are now getting a divorce and probably the best as you both don't want the same things but maybe work on yourself a bit before getting into a new relationship 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## notmyrealname4

I know this is water under the bridge now; but the Salvation Army thing sounded "off" to me from the start.

Your stbxw would have had you believe that a charitable Christian church organization would have frowned on her _not_ attending after hours get togethers at* bars* with co-workers??

Especially since she could have told them she had two kiddos at home who needed her? Most church organizations would have a lot of respect for that situation.

And, being a charitable not-for-profit type of organization, the wages at S.A. are probably not really high; so why on earth would your wife go through all the hassle of riding a bus 20 miles to get there? Especially since she has a college degree in childhood education?

None of it added up.

Fisher, none of that seemed...well, "odd" to you? If you're that good at poker, you must be able to read people pretty well; or have good instincts. But your instincts seem rather atrophied as to what is a b.s. story.

----------------------------------------------

Like I said, that's all spilled milk now.

What is very obvious, is that you have a HUGE chip on your shoulder with regards to your attractiveness to the opposite sex.

And, for a lot of us, this is something painful. To be unattractive to the opposite sex since adolescence. I sympathize with that. It sucks.


But you sound like you are becoming bitter, hard, cold. Don't let this fiasco with your stbx end up twisting you into a bizarre emotional shape.

Whether you ever get married again, it will only do you good to reach some sort of peace inside about who you are.

Congratulations on your financial talents and achievements. I really mean that.

But I don't believe that you can go without receiving love and acceptance for who you really are as a human being.

And, finally, if YOU want to develop a muscular physique? More power to you. I am sure you have the willpower to do so.

But there are many women who get genuinely aroused by thin men with "runner's build"; and find bulky, stocky muscular men unattractive.

Once again, it's your body; but wouldn't it be nice to be wanted for what you are naturally---not what you feel you have to transform yourself into; in order to get women who wouldn't find you attractive in your thin, slender body.


Best wishes to you and your children.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Meh, if you need to change your image outside, to fit how you feel inside go ahead. The real issues is, how ever you decide to change, make sure it is for you and your own betterment. It doesn't matter what a woman finds attractive or not, if you are still insecure inside a runners build or a stocky build does not matter. Your DEMEANOR and attitude says more to a woman than anything.


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## Rubix Cubed

notmyrealname4 said:


> I know this is water under the bridge now; but the Salvation Army thing sounded "off" to me from the start.
> 
> Your stbxw would have had you believe that a charitable Christian church organization would have frowned on her _not_ attending after hours get togethers at* bars* with co-workers??
> 
> Especially since she could have told them she had two kiddos at home who needed her? Most church organizations would have a lot of respect for that situation.
> 
> And, being a charitable not-for-profit type of organization, the wages at S.A. are probably not really high; so why on earth would your wife go through all the hassle of riding a bus 20 miles to get there? Especially since she has a college degree in childhood education?
> 
> None of it added up.
> 
> Fisher, none of that seemed...well, "odd" to you? If you're that good at poker, you must be able to read people pretty well; or have good instincts. But your instincts seem rather atrophied as to what is a b.s. story.


 I took that whole thing as Fisherman put Salvation Army into the story instead of the real organization as an inconsistency to maintain his anonymity, and it was not a story she told him.I believe he stated later that the org was over 50% LGBT volunteers and it was a different org.


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## notmyrealname4

Rubix Cubed said:


> I took that whole thing as Fisherman put Salvation Army into the story instead of the real organization as an inconsistency to maintain his anonymity, and it was not a story she told him.I believe he stated later that the org was over 50% LGBT volunteers and it was a different org.


Oh, well I thought that he discovered that she lied to him deliberately.

Could be wrong


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## GusPolinski

Chalk this one up to a couple that should've never been married, a woman that isn't -- and may never be -- marriage material, and a guy that doesn't know _how_ to be married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ABHale

melobious said:


> I really think you need to look at yourself, you do seem controlling to me and maybe slightly abusive without knowing it
> 
> You talk to her like she is a child
> 
> You call her fat and she needs to lose weight
> 
> You watch her spending and give her an allowance
> 
> You don't want to have sex with
> Her
> 
> Your never home, and you barely spend time with the kids.
> 
> You refuse to use text even though you know she prefers text,
> 
> This seems all about you.
> 
> You didn't even confirm jesse was a make or female just told her she can't go out with her anymore.
> 
> I realize you are now getting a divorce and probably the best as you both don't want the same things but maybe work on yourself a bit before getting into a new relationship
> 
> 
> If his wife is acting like a spoiled brat how else is he to treat her. If he has tried to treat as a equal wary on in their relationship then maybe it has come to this. I know he explained the allowance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## melobious

ABHale said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_




No- you don't justify being a jerk by saying 'she deserves it' that's like saying I hit her because she needs to learn. You are responsible for your own actions You don't blame someone for your actions.

Plus it appears this is how the relationship has always been. Therefore it's not because of her actions that he treats her that way.

I'm not saying she is completely not at fault im saying he needs to look at himself and realize he is not as innocent as he thinks he is. He needs to realize that he is not better than her and to treat he as he has been, is not ok. There are different types of 'abuse' just because he didn't hit her doesn't mean he is not being mentally abusive. And I can see he is not doing it in purpose. He doesn't realize how actions and words can be just as damaging, I'm pointing this out so he can work on it for future relationship 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ABHale

melobious said:


> No- you don't justify being a jerk by saying 'she deserves it' that's like saying I hit her because she needs to learn. You are responsible for your own actions You don't blame someone for your actions.
> 
> Plus it appears this is how the relationship has always been. Therefore it's not because of her actions that he treats her that way.
> 
> I'm not saying she is completely not at fault im saying he needs to look at himself and realize he is not as innocent as he thinks he is. He needs to realize that he is not better than her and to treat he as he has been, is not ok. There are different types of 'abuse' just because he didn't hit her doesn't mean he is not being mentally abusive. And I can see he is not doing it in purpose. He doesn't realize how actions and words can be just as damaging, I'm pointing this out so he can work on it for future relationship
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Well sense my post has been removed for some reason, you can accuse me of anything I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ABHale

melobious said:


> No- you don't justify being a jerk by saying 'she deserves it' that's like saying I hit her because she needs to learn. You are responsible for your own actions You don't blame someone for your actions.
> 
> Plus it appears this is how the relationship has always been. Therefore it's not because of her actions that he treats her that way.
> 
> I'm not saying she is completely not at fault im saying he needs to look at himself and realize he is not as innocent as he thinks he is. He needs to realize that he is not better than her and to treat he as he has been, is not ok. There are different types of 'abuse' just because he didn't hit her doesn't mean he is not being mentally abusive. And I can see he is not doing it in purpose. He doesn't realize how actions and words can be just as damaging, I'm pointing this out so he can work on it for future relationship
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And another thing. I have never said anything about hitting a female. That comment of yours was uncalled for. The last time a guy hit his wife in front of me, he didn't get up to easily. Only a coward would hit a girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## melobious

ABHale said:


> And another thing. I have never said anything about hitting a female. That comment of yours was uncalled for. The last time a guy hit his wife in front of me, he didn't get up to easily. Only a coward would hit a girl.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I'm not say you would or the OP would. Im sorry if I offended you, I'm just saying you can justified anything by 'well I explained why I did it' therefore I can do it (i.e. OP explained why he cut her off from finances and explained it so it's justified) 

Anyway not looking for an argument just Hoping the OP gets some help, gets some confidence back and hope he finds sma better suited partner because no one deserves to be treated like crap and deserve love 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Legend

What I want to know, Fisherman, is how you resisted the urge to text Jesse back upon first discovery, "This is her husband... and you're f*****g dead. Then, demand to meet this Jesse in person.


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## EunuchMonk

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> You guys familiar with Paul Simon? The late senator, not the singer. That's what I look like. I could be his son. But unfortunately without the charismatic personality that got him where he was despite his looks.*
> 
> Women don't want me. Men assume I'm a loser. My one asset is an extreme business acumen. I win at business deals and at the card table. My ability to make money "won" me my attractive wife. In the end it obviously wasn't enough to keep her.
> 
> I have lived with what I am long enough to have resigned myself to it. I don't think I will ever again be able to trust that any woman would want me for anything other than my money. It's easier to be alone than to always wonder if people are being polite to my face and laughing at me behind my back because I'm both physically unattractive and socially awkward.


Funny, I would love to trade places with you. I get all kinds of attention from women, some even flirt with me when I am handing out gospel tracts. I'm broke though. I would gladly give you my magnetism and muscles if you gave me your nerdiness and wealth.


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## NotEZ

Do you guys actually read what you are responding too? The guy said a few posts in that he doesnt love her and probably never has. That he married her out of obligation, is LD and that he spends little to no time at home. The ONLY proof of anything that he has is that a female texts her using words like "babe, honey and controlling" and that she likes to go out when he isnt there. Guess what? I have friends, including one impartial when it comes to sexual preference, who call me those names that I would rather spend time with than at home. It isnt because Im so weak minded that they are "convincing me to leave him" or that Im sleeping with them. Sometimes, especially when you are young and feel trapped in a loveless marriage with someone who isnt physically or emotionally (or both as OP admitted), you need an escape. Maybe a couple hours a night are hers. I too would be pissed if coming home at 10:30 meant I was cheating. The guy is gone for weeks at a time. It might not be for fun but it doesnt change the fact she is working and dealing with 6 year old twins while his responsibility is only his job. He never said how he feels about her going out when he is home. Why doesnt he answer that before we say a 25 year old, esentially single parent who likes to go out with the girls while her parents have the kids, must me a snakey w****.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk


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## Herschel

I am shocked at a lot of the responses here. Um what? This guy was 22 and started dating a 16 year old. That is predatorial where I come from. Eventsully she got pregnant and they had a shotgun wedding. He seems like he has been emotionally unavailable and she has been holed up in their house for 6 years doing nothing but taking care of the kids in her early 20s with her husband gone. Not only that, but her brother died 2 years ago. Factor in that she told him she doesn't want any money, just for him to get out of her life, well, I feel for her.

How everyone is like secure your bank account and lock her out of everything, what? She seems like she has been taken so advantage of and now she shouldn't be able to manage her life? She has agreed for a divorce but is still adamant about no affair, I am guessing he was verbally abusive towards her (he tells her how fat she is). 

Sorry man, I get it, divorce sucks and I hope you aren't as bad as you come off, but I think you should do right by her and your kids. You should make sure they have a good life ahead of them and a healthy childhood, because it seems like you stole a portion of your wife's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jsmart

He took advantage of her? Really? White Knights never seem to amaze me. Did you guys forget that SHE was sexually active while dating him. That it was her threat of leaving him if he didn't have sex with her that she would leave him that convinced him to have sex with her in the 1st place. 

How some can come to the conclusion that this guy, with VERY LITTLE experience with woman, somehow took advantage of her just because of her younger age is surprising. The OP may be more mature chronologically but he is way less socially mature. This was not a shotgun marriage. He wanted to do the right thing by marrying her but you see it as him taking advantage her youth. Doesn't matter that she was banging multiple dudes at the time. It was the guy that tried to stand by her when she was pregnant that is the bad guy.

I see the OP as a socially awkward guy that struggles with doing the right thing but is trying to honorably stand by his vow even though he's not attracted to her. When our society is coming apart at the seems with the breakdown of the family, here is a guy that is trying in his own way to struggle for his family. But you want applaud a woman who is obviously changing over a few short months from a wife and mother into an ice code .....

Yes, they should not have gotten married in the first place but lets not put all the blame on the man and make his wife out to be a damsel in distress. With the way so many WWs totally rewrite the marital history, I'm sure we're seeing another case of a formerly SAHM that as soon as she got into the work place became corrupted by either male attention or some "marriage is slavery" believing feminist, or both.


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## MJJEAN

Psst. @jsmart... marrying a chick because she got knocked up IS a shotgun marriage. Shotgun marriages are defined as "enforced marriages especially because the bride is pregnant".


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## Herschel

jsmart said:


> He took advantage of her? Really? White Knights never seem to amaze me. Did you guys forget that SHE was sexually active while dating him. That it was her threat of leaving him if he didn't have sex with her that she would leave him that convinced him to have sex with her in the 1st place.


White Knight? It's being a White Knight to think that a 22 year old guy dating a sophomore/junior in High School is a White Knight? This is all assuming that whatever is is saying is true, but clearly she had some issues (whether before him or after) and he willfully started dating her knowing that and then locked her in "Room". Ok, maybe not like that, but would you be OK with a 22 year old dude dating your 16 year old daughter? If not, why?


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## jsmart

MJJEAN said:


> Psst. @jsmart... marrying a chick because she got knocked up IS a shotgun marriage. Shotgun marriages are defined as "enforced marriages especially because the bride is pregnant".


To me, I consider shotgun weddings to be pressure from her family to marry a woman after getting her pregnant. But I guess, self-pressure can also qualify.


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## jsmart

Herschel said:


> White Knight? It's being a White Knight to think that a 22 year old guy dating a sophomore/junior in High School is a White Knight? This is all assuming that whatever is is saying is true, but clearly she had some issues (whether before him or after) and he willfully started dating her knowing that and then locked her in "Room". Ok, maybe not like that, but would you be OK with a 22 year old dude dating your 16 year old daughter? If not, why?


That hits close to home. I have a 16 year old daughter and would shut that $hit down fast. But this girl was banging multiple dudes while dating OP. How do we know if some of these guys were just as old as OP. 

From reading what OP wrote, I wouldn't be surprise if she was his 1st. This is not some smooth talking player taking an innocent girls virginity. We're talking about a guy that has some serious self-hate. 

I sincerely hope that, after proving that the twins are his, that they can find a way to co-parent. OP needs some IC to deal with his issues. I'm not saying his wife is to take all the blame but nothing the OP has revealed has led me to believe this is all on him and I'm sure he realizes that he shares some of the blame for the demise of the marriage.


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## Evinrude58

A typical 22 yr old person would not get involved with a promiscuous 16 yr old girl, knock her up, and marry her. We all know there's a good chance those aren't his kids. Some other dude was probably doing her more often than OP.

In truth, she's just doing what he should have had sense enough to know she'd do eventually--- she obviously had major issues long before he met her.

Only thing to do here is move on.

Yes, he needs some help with counseling-- we probably all do...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunCMars

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> You guys familiar with Paul Simon? The late senator, not the singer. That's what I look like. I could be his son. But unfortunately without the charismatic personality that got him where he was despite his looks.
> 
> Women don't want me. Men assume I'm a loser. My one asset is an extreme business acumen. I win at business deals and at the card table. My ability to make money "won" me my attractive wife. In the end it obviously wasn't enough to keep her.
> 
> I have lived with what I am long enough to have resigned myself to it. I don't think I will ever again be able to trust that any woman would want me for anything other than my money. It's easier to be alone than to always wonder if people are being polite to my face and laughing at me behind my back because I'm both physically unattractive and socially awkward.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I first went online and got a look at Paul Simon, the former Senator from Illinois.

I then smiled a big grin. Why? Am I heartless?

Because *that what makes you "less than handsome" is fixable*.

Do not brush off what I am going to tell you.

The State of the Art of today's plastic surgery is unbelievable.

They can re-arrange anyone's face and make it look MUCH MORE attractive.

Paul's nose [yours] is big. Big can be reshaped or reduced to" very nice".

Lips can be made fuller, eyes larger. 

Wrinkles can be reduced with surgery or injected with fat cells or Botox.

Do not laugh this off. Research the best plastic surgeons in your area. Get some estimates.

They have software now that will show you the before and after surgery/healing pictures.

I have not done this myself [no real need!] but I have family and friends who have.

Your EX wife will go bonkers when she sees the new you, with another attractive women at your side.

Keep in mind, that while a new face will give you new confidence, your personality will need to be spiced up, also.

You are not defeated, you are just beginning to fight back.


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## Emerging Buddhist

SunCMars said:


> I first went online and got a look at Paul Simon, the former Senator from Illinois.
> 
> I then smiled a big grin. Why? Am I heartless?
> 
> Because *that what makes you "less than handsome" is fixable*.
> 
> Do not brush off what I am going to tell you.
> 
> The State of the Art of today's plastic surgery is unbelievable.
> 
> They can re-arrange anyone's face and make it look MUCH MORE attractive.
> 
> Paul's nose [yours] is big. Big can be reshaped or reduced to" very nice".
> 
> Lips can be made fuller, eyes larger.
> 
> Wrinkles can be reduced with surgery or injected with fat cells or Botox.
> 
> Do not laugh this off. Research the best plastic surgeons in your area. Get some estimates.
> 
> They have software now that will show you the before and after surgery/healing pictures.
> 
> I have not done this myself [no real need!] but I have family and friends who have.
> 
> Your EX wife will go bonkers when she sees the new you, with another attractive women at your side.
> 
> Keep in mind, that while a new face will give you new confidence, your personality will need to be spiced up, also.
> 
> You are not defeated, you are just beginning to fight back.


I always though he was a cool person in looks and manners, confident and not worried about what others thought.

Maybe there was a reason beyond that, but individuality is a positive self-acceptance.

Then again, most things I find undesirable in people are often far below the skin.


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## CH

soccermom2three said:


> At the expense of the children? What if it comes back negative? The WW will have a field day with that information. "Dad didn't think you were his kids so he had you DNA tested!"


Just tell the kids you're doing this just in case if they are not your biological children for medical reasons. For any genetic disorders they might have inherited if they aren't OP's children.


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## TheTruthHurts

Btw the DNA testing isn't one done and directed at the kids - it's directed at the WS. If I were a BS I wouldn't disclose this to the kids and I'd only respond if the WS made a spectacle of it in an attempt to throw the kids into the fight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Fishermanbear1984

Well she beat me to it. I have an appt with a lawyer on Wednesday - she had me served today. Based on the speed of it I'm guessing she had this planned even before I found the Jesse texts.

She's asking for a no fault divorce, 100% custody with me getting visitation only, state minimum child support, for me to continue providing health insurance, and for me to pay off all marital debt (there's not much other than the kids' medical bills so I don't mind that). She's not asking for money for herself at all. Which is amazing to me since she doesn't make much above minimum wage.

I'm seriously considering moving back home closer to my family I have no family here at all. So I'm probably going to counter with having joint legal custody and getting the kids on all their school vacations. I don't see any point in arguing about the money since it's way less than I expected.

She's currently refusing to let me even see them unsupervised until we have a court order in place. Told me she doesn't trust me not to take them and disappear. She doesn't know me very well. I have no interest whatsoever in being a full time single father so I have no problem sharing physical custody with her. I figure I can focus 100% on my business when I don't have them and then take vacation time and focus 100% on them when they are with me. She on the other hand seems likely to dump them on her parents and do whatever the hell she wants.

I'm starting to believe she just really needs a chance to grow up. Get the rebellious period she should have had 5 years ago out of her system. I don't even really fault her. Just don't want her doing it on my time or my dime.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

Not allowing you unsupervised access is ridiculous. She has no legal basis for it, unless she is cooking one up. Stay on your toes with this...she is moving fast and is clearly ahead of you in this process.


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## OnTheRocks

She does not get to dictate the terms of visitation. You need a temporary separation agreement in place ASAP. She sounds a lot more likely to disappear with the kids than you do anyway. Projecting maybe? The whole situation sounds fishy.


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## bandit.45

Your wife has no legal right to keep your kids from you. In fact, she is breaking the law. I would show up at her house with a cop and discuss it with her. Make sure your lawyer files for a temp order from the judge for 50/50 custody.


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## CH

CARRY AT VAR AT ALL TIMES NOW! You do not want to get slapped with a temp restrained order based on false allegations at this point. It's going to get NASTY very quick if she's making those demands. I would even tell her that you're recording ALL conversations she initiates with you at this point. That way she can't say you recorded her without her permission. Keep everything documented, EVERYTHING.


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## Fishermanbear1984

She's kind of got me with the custody unfortunately. Between my business travel which has me gone 4-5 days per week, and the poker tournaments (I'm trying to make it onto the national pro circuit) I'm gone 20+ days per month. Almost a guarantee she'll hold that over me. I can even admit it's justifiable. I don't really want overnights alone with them anyway (i love my kids but I don't really enjoy being a father, I'm only just starting to realize how very little I ever connected with them) and I'm not really sure I want overnights since I'm seriously considering getting a studio apartment or even moving back in with my parents for a while until I get my life back in order. What I would like is to be able to take them places for hours at a time without her insisting on accompanying us or forcing me to stay at her parents' house while I'm visiting them.

Im starting to think that I'm incapable of truly loving anyone. How else to explain that I'm alone but not lonely, and I don't even miss them? I haven't seen my parents in over 2 years and I don't miss them either. Maybe I'm just better off alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## straightshooter

Fisher

Just stay alert on the money issue, and get to your attorney. Then let the legal expert deal with her.

And don't try to analyze yourself looking for faults. She is no prize to worry about. Let Jesse have her


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## SunCMars

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> She's kind of got me with the custody unfortunately. Between my business travel which has me gone 4-5 days per week, and the poker tournaments (I'm trying to make it onto the national pro circuit) I'm gone 20+ days per month. Almost a guarantee she'll hold that over me. I can even admit it's justifiable. I don't really want overnights alone with them anyway (i love my kids but I don't really enjoy being a father, I'm only just starting to realize how very little I ever connected with them) and I'm not really sure I want overnights since I'm seriously considering getting a studio apartment or even moving back in with my parents for a while until I get my life back in order. What I would like is to be able to take them places for hours at a time without her insisting on accompanying us or forcing me to stay at her parents' house while I'm visiting them.
> 
> Im starting to think that I'm incapable of truly loving anyone. How else to explain that I'm alone but not lonely, and I don't even miss them? I haven't seen my parents in over 2 years and I don't miss them either. Maybe I'm just better off alone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mr. Fish Mooney,

Thanks for being honest with us Figments.

Her offer sounds reasonable *since you do not want the kids to stay overnight*.

Here comes the 2x4.

Most of us would never in a minute accept a deal without 50/50 custody. You do, and that is a shame. 

Why? She will be a bad influence on those children. You have told us how abusive and ungrateful she is. She was married to you, yet had no problem bashing you behind your back. This shows a lack of character and respect for common norms of behavior. She may be OK now, but when the kids get older and sassy [as teenagers] she will not handle it properly.

If you do not want to be a father figure to these children, then you too are selfish. I understand the inconvenience part, relative to your business. Life is all about sacrifices.

But, Sir....you are at least, honest.

The kids need a stable man in their lives, not a parade of men whom are their mother's latest and greatest.

And your fear that she will dump them off at her parents and go out partying is not good. Who will see that they do their homework, do their chores. Grandparents? No, they will do little in this direction.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Well she beat me to it. I have an appt with a lawyer on Wednesday - she had me served today. Based on the speed of it I'm guessing she had this planned even before I found the Jesse texts.
> 
> She's asking for a no fault divorce, 100% custody with me getting visitation only, state minimum child support, for me to continue providing health insurance, and for me to pay off all marital debt (there's not much other than the kids' medical bills so I don't mind that). She's not asking for money for herself at all. Which is amazing to me since she doesn't make much above minimum wage.
> 
> I'm seriously considering moving back home closer to my family I have no family here at all. So I'm probably going to counter with having joint legal custody and getting the kids on all their school vacations. I don't see any point in arguing about the money since it's way less than I expected.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Trust me, if you love your kids, you do not want her to have 100% custody. This means she makes all decisions, all by herself, with no input from you and she still gets your child support. Yes, this includes moving away because she "wants to." Happened to myself and a good friend, but we had custody agreements in place where our exs had to file with the court, set a hearing, send us a registered letter and appear before a judge to set up an actual court date for arguments. My ex didn't bother and my friend's ex stopped at the initial court hearing.
No offense, but what does your marital debt look like? 
What does her SECRET debt look like?


Also, remember, the court is the ultimate decision maker. She can say she doesn't want anything and a judge can nix everything. At this point, unfortunately, remember divorce is one huge headache and chess game. It is full of feints, sacrifices and losses to win. At this point you have to believe nothing she states and believe her actions. Keeping the kids away and letting you see them only when supervised is a sign of how bad this may get. 

I do find it ironic she took the kids, limited your access and is claiming she is afraid of what you will do. Get the custody done asap, this is a common tactic used by lawyers to show your neglect and how she should have 100% custody. You want non-primary 50/50. She'll get the money she deserves, but she won't have total control over everything. Still, if you truthfully feel you aren't connected, give her 100%. Yet, I'd still get a DNA test.


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## Fishermanbear1984

She has no secret debt. She can't be trusted with money and I've never let her buy anything over $20 without my permission. She has no debit or credit cards. I monitor both our credit reports very carefully her credit report is almost empty because everything is in my name. In my professional field prospective clients often run background reports including credit checks and I could not afford to let her do something that would screw up my almost perfect score. Since she has started working I let her keep the money she makes and I don't give her spending money anymore. Technically if I wanted to be a total bastard I could take her car and her cell phone and there's nothing she could do about it. She's lucky I don't want revenge, I just want out.

We have almost no marital debt. Rent the house, cars paid off, student loans paid off, the only debt we have is medical bills for the kids. I don't believe in credit cards so we don't have any. I do have a business Amex but that gets paid in full every month. I basically only use it for making travel arrangements.

My in laws are awesome. I would almost rather see them get custody than her. The kids spend more time with them than with either of us since she started working. They drive them to school, pick them up, take them to the doctors, go to their school events. I don't because I'm not here on weekdays. She doesn't because she says she can't stand being around other SAHMs it reminds her of what she used to be and never wants to be again. My in laws are the ones taking the kids out tonight my wife is at an adult costume party at a bar. I know this because she apparently hasn't realized I turned her Find My iPhone back on. I can track everywhere she goes and I'm not even in the same state.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## it-guy

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> (i love my kids but I don't really enjoy being a father, I'm only just starting to realize how very little I ever connected with them)]



Deadbeat POS Why are you on here trying to get people to relate to you? I don't care if I get banned. I'm saying it like it is.

edit.... adding a little more. Just leave. Sounds like you are as much of the problem as she is. If you are lucky, your kids will find someone better than you and your STBXW to raise them. Someone who cares about them.

Being a father is more than providing income.


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## Thor

Keep in mind the precise wording matters in the agreement. You might agree to paying for health _insurance_, but that is very different than paying their _medical costs_.

Insurance might run you $500/month for a high deductible plan. But the deductible could be $6k per year! And then insurance may only pay 80% of the costs above that. So you are on the hook for upwards of $12k per year potentially in just medical costs. If one of your kids gets a chronic condition or something which requires a couple of surgeries or hospital stays over a few years, the costs suddenly are much much higher than just the insurance premiums.


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## Yeswecan

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> She's kind of got me with the custody unfortunately. Between my business travel which has me gone 4-5 days per week, and the poker tournaments (I'm trying to make it onto the national pro circuit) I'm gone 20+ days per month. Almost a guarantee she'll hold that over me. I can even admit it's justifiable. I don't really want overnights alone with them anyway (i love my kids but I don't really enjoy being a father, I'm only just starting to realize how very little I ever connected with them) and I'm not really sure I want overnights since I'm seriously considering getting a studio apartment or even moving back in with my parents for a while until I get my life back in order. What I would like is to be able to take them places for hours at a time without her insisting on accompanying us or forcing me to stay at her parents' house while I'm visiting them.
> 
> Im starting to think that I'm incapable of truly loving anyone. How else to explain that I'm alone but not lonely, and I don't even miss them? I haven't seen my parents in over 2 years and I don't miss them either. Maybe I'm just better off alone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry to say....it appears you checked out of the marriage. 20+ days a month gone from home? That is not a marriage. You earned what is coming.


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## OnTheRocks

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> She's kind of got me with the custody unfortunately. Between my business travel which has me gone 4-5 days per week, and the poker tournaments (I'm trying to make it onto the national pro circuit) I'm gone 20+ days per month. Almost a guarantee she'll hold that over me. I can even admit it's justifiable. I don't really want overnights alone with them anyway (i love my kids but I don't really enjoy being a father, I'm only just starting to realize how very little I ever connected with them) and I'm not really sure I want overnights since I'm seriously considering getting a studio apartment or even moving back in with my parents for a while until I get my life back in order. What I would like is to be able to take them places for hours at a time without her insisting on accompanying us or forcing me to stay at her parents' house while I'm visiting them.
> 
> Im starting to think that I'm incapable of truly loving anyone. How else to explain that I'm alone but not lonely, and I don't even miss them? I haven't seen my parents in over 2 years and I don't miss them either. Maybe I'm just better off alone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ex-fncking-scuse me? Given your priorities, IMO you should just bow out of your kids' lives completely.


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## VladDracul

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Technically if I wanted to be a total bastard I could take her car and her cell phone and there's nothing she could do about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't bet on it my man. Its hard to swallow for some people, but you also need to consider that until the final judgment is entered, you are technically still married and likely still liable to provide certain necessaries. Land locking her without a car to go to work and provide for the kids is a crappie idea morally and perhaps legally.
Additionally, the way you're coming across as an individual, you probably need to stay out of court. I'm starting to like Jessie.


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## TRy

it-guy said:


> Deadbeat POS Why are you on here trying to get people to relate to you? I don't care if I get banned. I'm saying it like it is.
> 
> edit.... adding a little more. Just leave. Sounds like you are as much of the problem as she is. If you are lucky, your kids will find someone better than you and your STBXW to raise them. Someone who cares about them.
> 
> Being a father is more than providing income.


 I call bull to you saying it like it is. You are out of line here. He is not fighting his wife for custody because he realized his own weakness as a parent. For the sake of the children, I wish more divorced parents would be so honest about themselves when determining custody.


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## moth-into-flame

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> I don't really want overnights alone with them anyway (i love my kids but I don't really enjoy being a father, I'm only just starting to realize how very little I ever connected with them) and I'm not really sure I want overnights since I'm seriously considering getting a studio apartment or even moving back in with my parents for a while until I get my life back in order.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow. I feel awful for your children. Sorry, but that's just terrible.


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## moth-into-flame

TRy said:


> He is not fighting his wife for custody because he realized his own weakness as a parent.


Yes. How incredibly insightful.


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## bandit.45

Brothers and Sisters I think I have now heard it all...


OP, you are making an enormous mistake...An enormous mistake. Your kids need their dad. A stepdad will not suffice.


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## moth-into-flame

bandit.45 said:


> Brothers and Sisters I think I have now heard it all...
> 
> 
> OP, you are making an enormous mistake...An enormous mistake. Your kids need their dad. A stepdad will not suffice.


He's made it clear he doesn't particularly care for his children.


----------



## ILoveSparkles

bandit.45 said:


> Brothers and Sisters I think I have now heard it all...
> 
> 
> OP, you are making an enormous mistake...An enormous mistake. Your kids need their dad. A stepdad will not suffice.


A stepdad could definitely more than suffice - especially if a SD wants to have the children with him and be interested in their lives and want to be a part of it. The OP has made it clear that he doesn't want to be a father unless and when it suits him. 

Sometimes step parents are better and offer more than biological ones.


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## bandit.45

Well, he will regret it if he lets that happen. He'll end up a pathetic, lonely old man begging his kids to come visit him once in a while... and they will always give him an excuse as to why they cannot.


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## notmyrealname4

It's kind of touching how many middle-aged, experienced adults on TAM seem to be shocked that a parent would not want to be a part of their children's lives.

That was my experience with biological father. Knew where I was and never lifted a finger to contact me, reach out to me....whatever.

Several years before he divorced my mother, my stepfather was basically a stranger to me; and after they divorced I saw him twice.


There are people, in my experience men (but women too), who have absolutely, f,cking zero interest in being parents.

Thank God these kids have loving grandparents. I still thank God most days for my grandparents; and pray that they receive great rewards for the love and stability they provided for me, when I was a kid.


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## badbane

Well I'll weight in here. I have been dormant for a long time so hello. I look at this situation and see a marriage that you never wanted but you put up with. She's most likely been on several one night stands. Her friends are likely pushing her out of the marriage because "patriarchy" SJW nonsensical thinking. The alarming thing is that your kids are going to hate you. You are literally abandoning them. You should feel something there. Businesses fail, money comes and goes, and beauty fades, but family is family and always will be. You could easily contest this divorce and yes you would have to change your lifestyle so what the two kids you brought into this world are your responsibility. Passing it off is litterally like dragging your kids self esteem out of their bodies. Forget the wife she doesn't want to be your wife however you think your wife is cheating, and you let her take the kids. I can't really say more without repeating the point but I question your priorities.


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## it-guy

TRy said:


> I call bull to you saying it like it is. You are out of line here. He is not fighting his wife for custody because he realized his own weakness as a parent. For the sake of the children, I wish more divorced parents would be so honest about themselves when determining custody.


I said this because the part about his kids upset me. Like really upset me. And I got a few days ban for saying it like I did.

I see my biological children twice a week, and I hate that I do not see them more. But I knew when I divorced that this particular schedule and living arrangement would benefit them more than being 50/50 in one house and another. That being said, I make the most of the time when I see them. I am also a very involved co-parent. I will always be there for them…..anytime they need me… and they know it.

I do agree with your point that parents should consider what is in the best interest of their children when they divorce. If you see yourself as an unfit patent, you should not fight for custody just to get over on your ex. I get that. And, I agree with that.

But what he said….. That set me off. It’s the way he said it.


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## aine

notmyrealname4 said:


> It's kind of touching how many middle-aged, experienced adults on TAM seem to be shocked that a parent would not want to be a part of their children's lives.
> 
> That was my experience with biological father. Knew where I was and never lifted a finger to contact me, reach out to me....whatever.
> 
> Several years before he divorced my mother, my stepfather was basically a stranger to me; and after they divorced I saw him twice.
> 
> 
> There are people, in my experience men (but women too), who have absolutely, f,cking zero interest in being parents.
> 
> Thank God these kids have loving grandparents. I still thank God most days for my grandparents; and pray that they receive great rewards for the love and stability they provided for me, when I was a kid.



I'm not shocked at all that there are fathers out there like this. My parents divorced when i was five, I was lucky to see my father (who was a successful businessman) twice a year. He threw money and gifts at us all the time but never connected with us. He is still alive and remarried, I still meet him at family functions, but he is like an uncle I hardly know. When I was a student I reached out to him many times and was brushed off, now I don't give a ****. If I am being really honest, I doubt I'll bother going to his funeral, unless it is very convenient to me and I happen to be in that neck of the woods. Make of this what you will, but people create their own misery sometimes.


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## TaDor

At this point... Go for a quick divorce, let your wife be the mother since your interests isn't there. 

Not all people make good or interested parents. There are step dads and moms who love and care for their step children.

(I've been playing with my toddler for the past 2 hours, which I do daily. We play, we chase and we laugh. That's me. No need to expect everyone to be the same)

Other advice. Get a vasectomy. Have sex with women that turn you on... And you won't have anymore accidents - er children.

Thus, you see your kids when it's easy for you ever other week and they are taken care of.


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## Thound

notmyrealname4 said:


> It's kind of touching how many middle-aged, experienced adults on TAM seem to be shocked that a parent would not want to be a part of their children's lives.
> 
> That was my experience with biological father. Knew where I was and never lifted a finger to contact me, reach out to me....whatever.
> 
> Several years before he divorced my mother, my stepfather was basically a stranger to me; and after they divorced I saw him twice.
> 
> 
> There are people, in my experience men (but women too), who have absolutely, f,cking zero interest in being parents.
> 
> Thank God these kids have loving grandparents. I still thank God most days for my grandparents; and pray that they receive great rewards for the love and stability they provided for me, when I was a kid.


They are already rewarded. You are the reward. Take it from a grandfather, I am one.


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## notmyrealname4

Thound said:


> They are already rewarded. You are the reward. Take it from a grandfather, I am one.


:|:crying:


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## notmyrealname4

aine said:


> I'm not shocked at all that there are fathers out there like this. My parents divorced when i was five, I was lucky to see my father (who was a successful businessman) twice a year. He threw money and gifts at us all the time but never connected with us. He is still alive and remarried, I still meet him at family functions, but he is like an uncle I hardly know. When I was a student I reached out to him many times and was brushed off,* now I don't give a ****. If I am being really honest, I doubt I'll bother going to his funeral,* unless it is very convenient to me and I happen to be in that neck of the woods. *Make of this what you will*, but people create their own misery sometimes.



Good for you.

Don't let anyone shame you aine; it's not acceptable *yet* to say that you can't stand one or both of your neglectful parents.

But I think that slowly, things are changing. We have to be honest and persistent about this. 

Besides, giving sh.tty parents a lot of credit for merely biologically reproducing---detracts from the most excellent parents who put their heart and soul into their kids lives.


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## aine

notmyrealname4 said:


> Good for you.
> 
> Don't let anyone shame you aine; it's not acceptable *yet* to say that you can't stand one or both of your neglectful parents.
> 
> But I think that slowly, things are changing. We have to be honest and persistent about this.
> 
> Besides, giving sh.tty parents a lot of credit for merely biologically reproducing---detracts from the most excellent parents who put their heart and soul into their kids lives.


A sperm doner, no more or no less doesn't really deserve to be ranked with those men who are fathers (biologically or otherwise) who actually nuture kids, love them and guide them throughout their lives.


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## stevehowefan

aine said:


> A sperm doner, no more or no less doesn't really deserve to be ranked with those men who are fathers (biologically or otherwise) who actually nuture kids, love them and guide them throughout their lives.


I read this whole thread and I feel sorry for the kids the most by a long shot. Dad isn't home and puts career(s) ahead of family with being gone 20+ days a month. And then there is the mom who dumps the kids off on the grandparents to go to the bar. I realize the children were not "planned," and I guess it can be said that they weren't aborted, thankfully, but since they're here they deserve a life. they're the innocent victims.


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## Thound

My father started a business and lost his @ss. He took a job with a major chemical company. He worked all the over time he could. He took callouts around the clock. It wasn't because he wanted to, it was because he wanted to take care of his family and be a good provider. When I got married and had kids I worked a lot of over time and made callouts around the clock not only to take care of my family, but to take care of my jiob. I didn't want to be replaced by someone who would do what I refused to do. Just because a man works a lot doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't care about his family in fact most care deeply about their family. I realize that not the case in this thread though.


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## lisamaree

I'll give you my 2-cents, if it even matters.

I don't really believe your wife is cheating on you. I think Jesse is taking advantage of your wife during a vulnerable time, which is the unhappiness of your marriage.

I am not getting the vibe that you are very loving or kind to your wife. You matter-of-factly state that you have told her she needs to lose weight. You tell us that you have a low sex drive, compounded with the fact that you are gone more than 20 days per month. Your wife is raising very young twins in the meantime - raising two healthy children is extremely difficult, worse if they are twins, and even WORSE if they suffer sickness. She was dealing with all of that, and it sounds like all you really did was hand her $.

Where is the time for her?

You don't even want to be a physical father to your own children. They seem to be an "inconvenience" to you. You blame them for your marriage - yet you are the adult who married her. You don't seem to be considering their feelings as much as you should; you should be giving up your poker hobby for your kids. Why don't you give that up, or cut it back, so you have at least every other weekend with your children?!

I am really flabbergasted and how you can call HER immature, when it almost sounds to me like she is more of an adult than you are. She may be bad with money but she seems to be taking more of the responsibility and making more adult decisions.

In other words: I don't really blame her. She is angry and resentful at you FOR GOOD REASON. She has built up so much resentment she is willing to give up a good chunk of what she is entitled to in the divorce just to get away from you. I also have to wonder why she would want you to have little time with your children, unless it is her way of punishing you vs if she knows you don't seem to really care about them. If I was your W I would feel resentful having to share my time that I get with my kids with someone who gives them up for poker tournaments, but maybe that's just me.

Sorry to be so harsh on you but you really need to wake up. This is now no longer about her or you, or your marriage. You are divorcing and you have two children in the middle of it. Do what is best for them, and own up for it.


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## wmn1

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> Oh hey and kudos to whoever it was who picked up on the Salvation Army thing. Doesn't matter but she works at a similar company but it's not religion based it's an ultra liberal environmental organization. Probably half her coworker's belong to the LGBT community. She thinks it's cool but honestly the people I've met are just a bunch of boring tree huggers and leftover hippies.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


you are probably spot on with this


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## french123

Fishermanbear1984 said:


> You guys familiar with Paul Simon? The late senator, not the singer. That's what I look like. I could be his son. But unfortunately without the charismatic personality that got him where he was despite his looks.
> 
> Women don't want me. Men assume I'm a loser. My one asset is an extreme business acumen. I win at business deals and at the card table. My ability to make money "won" me my attractive wife. In the end it obviously wasn't enough to keep her.
> 
> I have lived with what I am long enough to have resigned myself to it. I don't think I will ever again be able to trust that any woman would want me for anything other than my money. It's easier to be alone than to always wonder if people are being polite to my face and laughing at me behind my back because I'm both physically unattractive and socially awkward.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dude, the great thing about guys is that your face is only a small part of your attractiveness. If you work out, you can easily become significantly more attractive. Go to marriedredpill on reddit. You will find your salvation there my friend.


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## french123

lisamaree said:


> You don't even want to be a physical father to your own children. They seem to be an "inconvenience" to you. You blame them for your marriage - yet you are the adult who married her. You don't seem to be considering their feelings as much as you should; you should be giving up your poker hobby for your kids. Why don't you give that up, or cut it back, so you have at least every other weekend with your children?!
> .


This is true. You've got to provide leadership.


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## sokillme

Thound said:


> My father started a business and lost his @ss. He took a job with a major chemical company. He worked all the over time he could. He took callouts around the clock. It wasn't because he wanted to, it was because he wanted to take care of his family and be a good provider. When I got married and had kids I worked a lot of over time and made callouts around the clock not only to take care of my family, but to take care of my jiob. I didn't want to be replaced by someone who would do what I refused to do. Just because a man works a lot doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't care about his family in fact most care deeply about their family. I realize that not the case in this thread though.


Caring for you family is more then making money though. Being a provider doesn't just mean a financial provider. If all you are doing is working you are NOT being a good provider. You have to provide for your family emotionally as well. Their emotional well being is just as important as their financial, maybe even more. Children without Fathers present in the home don't do well.


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## Thound

sokillme said:


> Caring for you family is more then making money though. Being a provider doesn't just mean a financial provider. If all you are doing is working you are NOT being a good provider. You have to provide for your family emotionally as well. Their emotional well being is just as important as their financial, maybe even more. Children without Fathers present in the home don't do well.


True, but it's hard taking care of your family while scratching a broke azz.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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