# Guilt over Leaving Single Mother



## william_1981 (Mar 12, 2013)

Hello everyone.

This is my second post here. I am feeling pretty depressed right now about what I am going to post, and I want your honest opinion about what I am doing and if it is the right thing to do. I feel really bad about it... but I have to ask people who don't know me... to get a clear view of everything. Be warned, it will take a bit of time & reading on your part. But I will read every message carefully and consider what you say...

Here goes:

I met Mari about a year ago in May of 2012. Mari was a very cute girl, same age as myself, from Japan, and had a 7 year old daughter (who is now 8). She was technically married to her husband, but separated. She received a small amount from him ($440 per month) for childcare. 

She was struggling financially and didn't have a job... claiming it was quite hard to get a job. I think she was aiming a bit higher than she should without having any education, but eventually she did get a job in December 2012 at an insurance company... so good on her. I helped her out here and there, not giving her money, but paying for dinners and taking her out places and doing nice things for her daughter. I also moved in with her partly because I was in love with her, but also to help her out (she could pay cheaper rent). One of the mistakes I made ( a bad reason) was also partly moving in with her to keep an eye on her (I'll get to that later...).

We were extremely interested in each other and quickly became girlfriend / boyfriend. She left to Japan shortly after, and we had a 6 week long-distance-relationship. Everything seemed fine. Until one day, her room-mate (temporarily moving there, younger guy from Japan) called me, saying she was going crazy. Mari had actually put me in touch with this guy to do a language exchange (he taught me Japanese, I taught him English, for the reason I thought was for me to learn Japanese...). I noticed she had talked a lot about this guy... mainly bad stuff. Like how he didn't treat her well. That was a warning flag...

Anyways, it turned out she was cheating on me with him. It was ongoing too... not just a one time thing. He told me everything when I went over there. (By the way, this happened on her birthday). He left the scene and I was there with Mari, who was hiding in her room. I knocked on the door, went in, and saw a very distraught girl there. She even had her cellphone sitting right next to her, which had not answered my many calls that day. So I broke up with her. Suddenly she started calling me, texting me, and begging to stay together. She said she realized she loves me, not him. Anyways, I decided "fine" that I'll see her but not sure if I would stay with her. I picked her up from her party (her friends threw her a small party that day) and she was drunk... happy... and didn't apologize or talk about anything. I was pretty upset. And when we got to my apartment, and after we were in bed, we started talking. I broke up with her yet one more time because I didn't like her behaviour and kicked her out. But she cried a lot, so I said she could stay the night.

The thing that bugs me a lot about this cheating thing is that her story varies wildly from the guy's. He has no reason to lie to me... but she tried to tell me she didn't love him, that all along he was pushing her. But his perspective is so different. And I don't know why he would lie... especially now that he is safely in Japan. Also, everything he told me matches with what happened. I'd have to stretch my beliefs and thinking to match aspects of her story... which was full of lies. And I know she lied to me because I found out about more stuff later...

The next couple of months were good sometimes, bad sometimes. Mainly good. But we had many fights. She often got upset at me if I slipped up and mentioned an ex-girlfriend. One day she threw two wine glasses against a wall, took out a knife and started to stab a pillow with it over & over again, and then took out her rice cooker and stabbed it until the top of it broke apart. I warned her that I would call 911 and that seemed to stop her cold in her rage. 

Many other times she treated me poorly. She lied to me about another thing too. I investigated her (I feel bad about doing this, but I felt it was neccessary) and found out she had a convo on facebook with some Japanese guy back when she was in Japan. The conversation appeared as if they had kissed each other. I brought it up with her. Many many times she denied it. Finally, in December, she gave in. Cried like crazy and told me she did, but didn't want to, and only kissed (no sex).

A few other times I again threatened to break up until one day I said "it's over" and I will call our landlord & we will break the lease, and move out. That day we had an argument and it went on and on into the night. I was attending school at that time, and often lost sleep to arguing into the night. She even once woke up her daughter at like 2am in the night, and acted like she was going to leave. I had done nothing wrong to her, just argued with her about a topic we often argued about (that I should be able to talk about my past, but she didn't like that, since I could have been with other girls in the past). So right then and there my patience ended. It was the real breakup.

That changed her. She came back to me, cried a ton, and begged again to stay with me. As usual, I was dumb and weak and gave in.

Ever since, she has been very nice to me. She always tried to be around me, too much really, as she doesn't hang out with her friends much anymore... she treats me better (not many fights) etc. She invests so much time and effort in me. She helps me when I need it... with anything. She really, truly, absolutely loves me. I think she started loving me this much after I threatened to break up with her in December... ever since she's acted like I am the most important thing in her life which she cannot possibly lose. And since January of 2013 it has been almost problem free. But I cannot easily forget what happened. This girl who I look at and love has treated me so poorly in the past and I sometimes worry about what will happen in the future.

One other bad thing happened I should mention that shocked me. Often she said bad things about her daughter (a very nice, smart, intelligent, strong girl who everyone likes) like that she costs too much money. OK, I can see that she was a stressed-out single mom. But something happened recently which I was upset about (though I didn't show it to her much, as I have given up on that). One day we dropped off her daughter at a friend's mother's place. The family was taking care of her. We got a phone call from the mother there and she said Mari's daughter fell of monkey bars onto her back. We rushed there, and I saw a girl lying on the ground in pain, unable to move or get up, crying, complaining of intense pain. So I thought we better phone an ambulance after I realized the daughter wouldn't get up on her own or even with help. The whole time Mari complained about how much the ambulance would cost, that her daughter just was seeking attention... But I thought we better call 911 just in case she is really injured. I mean she fell 2 feet and onto her back! Luckily at the hospital we found out everything was OK. But I was the one helping her daughter around. I held her hand, told her everything would be OK... and Mari just stood there, sternly, angry, saying she felt embarrassed. I think it was the right thing to do. And it made me feel like I don't want her as a mother to my child... In the end, her daughter was OK and we didn't pay a penny for the ambulance. It all worked out. We went home and that was that.

Although I just described her worst moments, typically she is very sweet & caring. She is like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Now, I know she has had counseling in the past. She has had a brutal past with her family, mean parents, abusive sister. She married a guy she didn't love when she got "knocked up." She's struggled financially. She worked at Japanese "gentlemen clubs" which she asserts no sex went down, but just conversation for ridiculously high prices. Yet then I found out later that she sort of engaged in prostitution in Canada with this guy who was in her table tennis club... he paid her a "dinner fee" for her to make dinners for him a few times a month (this is before I met her) which was like $250 a month or so. She charged him for "dinner" yet had a physical relationship with him. Anyways... I wasn't too happy when I found out about that either. The reason I wasn't happy was because when I first met her, she warned me about this guy, saying he was like a "stalker" and not to worry since she doesn't like him. Hmmmmm... OK. Whatever.

As you can see, this girl has issues. Is she someone I want to be with forever? The answer, unfortunately is no. But I do care about her. I feel sorry for her. I like her child a lot too (we are good buddies!). I mean, I have lived with the two of them for 9 months now... and it will break my heart to break up. But it has to happen... and the only reason I didn't break up many times before was because we live together. It was stupid of me to move in with her so suddenly, just after cheating, and other signs that she is mentally unstable... But I did and I know I am to partly blame for that.

I tried to make the relationship work as best I can. And she did her part too. She has been really great the last few months. No arguments really... I could go on and on about the GOOD things she's done, the things that we have in common but that would take too much time and that's not the issue I am focusing on here. The issue is that although she is great in many ways, I just find myself *not* wanting to be with her partly due to the past, but also because presently I cannot get over the past. I thought I could.. but I cannot. I can never enjoy her birthday. I can never fully trust her, although I do feel trust building. But there will always be doubt. I also can never know that we will have happy days in the future... since all that bad fighting occurred. She promised to never be violent again, but it's hard to believe it 100%. And I hate seeing her cry (she often cries a lot when we talk about this issue I am talking to you about now.. that it's tough for me to imagine staying with her).

Finally, I talked heart-to-heart with some close friends and my parents, and everyone agrees I shouldn't prolong the relationship. I actually talked to my landlord, told her I'd be leaving in July 2013 (lease expires end of September) and that I'd still pay the entire rent for the place and finish the lease. This will give Mari 3 months (July, August, September) to decide what to do. I'm not just "leaving her in the dust" or "throwing her to the wolves" per se. I care about her. And I want her to live well, and happy... and without financial difficulty. Financially it won't be too hard on her since I will pay my share of the rent. I will take my possessions, just the things I had before I met her or spent my own money on. She will keep pretty much everything, as she had owned most furniture. 

But here's the hardest part. How I am going to do this. Rather than prolong the agony/suffering of breaking up and possibly have some very nasty fights, violence (she is the one who has been violent, throwing stuff, I have never once done anything violent and never will), crying... by telling her in advance, I am just going to move everything out on one day and leave while she is at work. It will come as a huge shock to her as I haven't really done anything to give her a hint. I've stopped being as physical with her and don't ever say "I love you" first. She may have a small hint... but generally, I act like I am comfortable. I don't know how to slowly bring up this topic, as it would throw her into a rage. When she gets emotional, she literally almost cannot breathe. It's scary to watch... and I always just end up helping her, patting her on the back, and telling her it will be OK.... sometimes her sadness turns to anger, or vice versa. I just don't want to prolong this moment. I need to leave her and do so quickly, and get out as soon as possible. I don't think she is the type to hurt herself, as her daughter depends on her and she does have some common sense in that area (we both had a conversation one day where we both agreed suicide is very very stupid and pointless).

Her daughter will be staying at her grandparents / dad's for 6 weeks (that's their arrangement) during all of July so the daughter won't see any of this stuff go down. She'll just come back to an apartment which I am no longer living in. She'll ask why, and I have no idea of what Mari will say. But it breaks my heart to think of the possibilities.

It saddens me and hurts me to leave Mari, and her daughter. I feel almost like we are married. But I don't really love her in a relationship-kind-of-way. It's been a long time trying to think of staying with her, but in the end, I think I would be happier to break up. But I am feeling terribly guilty... not just because of leaving Mari, but also her daughter. 

My friends & family cheer me on to leave Mari. But Mari is a human being with thoughts and feelings and the thought of her being hurt makes me so sad & depressed. I still care for her. A lot! But I just don't want to live with her or be her boyfriend. Maybe the toughest part of this all is that really... she hasn't made any mistakes recently: I am certain she hasn't cheated on me again (we're always together anyways) nor even shown interest in another guy. She is glued to me... she is dependent on me socially too (she rarely ever hangs out with her own friends anymore...). 

So, I feel bad. Very bad. But it must be done... I don't know what I expect to see for replies here, but feel free to ask questions if you didn't quite understand something and I'll answer as best I can. I just wanted to get this all out and get some opinions on if what I am doing is a moral, good thing to do...

Here is my question I wanted to say earlier, but edited this to ask it:

_*Question:* Am I right in just leaving her suddenly? Or should I tell her in advance? I may be putting my possessions (she once threatened to smash my iPad) or myself in jeopardy... but she has promised to never be violent again. I dunno if I believe it 100% though. (Also worried about the child seeing this stuff go down)

The shock she will feel will be huge. I doubt she'll go to work the next day. It could be weeks or months until she recovers to normality. She may never recover the psychological damage of someone she *thinks* everything is going A-OK with suddenly coming to a halt.

She has said many times I am the nicest guy she ever met, and thinks I am perfect. If the "perfect guy" suddenly leaves her, will she ever love again? I hope she finds a decent guy after me... but I dunno if she will be able to recover ever._


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Try not to feel guilt about this. She is pathetic. She has serious issues, and you should thank your lucky stars that you never married her or had a child with her. She has cheated on you, has been violent toward you, and hateful. I totally understand why you are going to leave the way you are planning to, you fall for her pathetic act every time and stay with her. As unstable as she is, it is probably the only way to do it. Once you leave, make sure that you break of all contact with her.


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## william_1981 (Mar 12, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> Try not to feel guilt about this. She is pathetic. She has serious issues, and you should thank your lucky stars that you never married her or had a child with her. She has cheated on you, has been violent toward you, and hateful. I totally understand why you are going to leave the way you are planning to, you fall for her pathetic act every time and stay with her. As unstable as she is, it is probably the only way to do it. Once you leave, make sure that you break of all contact with her.


Thanks. That's what everyone says to me... that I should break all contact with her. It will be very difficult for me to do. But I realize I have to. It will only hurt her more to keep her hoping (due to mixed signals).

I don't think she is a "pathetic" person. Well, it hurts me when I read that... as I care for her very much and she has many great qualities. She is just weak. Weak to her own emotions. If she were a stronger person, she wouldn't seem to need me as much. If she were stronger, she wouldn't have done lots of the bad things to me or others that she has done. I wouldn't worry so much about her if she was strong.

Thanks for your reply.

And to everyone:

One more question:

Question: Am I right in just leaving her suddenly? Or should I tell her in advance? I may be putting my possessions (she once threatened to smash my iPad) or myself in jeopardy... but she has promised to never be violent again. I dunno if I believe it 100% though. (Also worried about the child seeing this stuff go down)

The shock she will feel will be huge. I doubt she'll go to work the next day. It could be weeks or months until she recovers to normality. She may never recover the psychological damage of someone she *thinks* everything is going A-OK with suddenly coming to a halt.

She has said many times I am the nicest guy she ever met, and thinks I am perfect. If the "perfect guy" suddenly leaves her, will she ever love again? I hope she finds a decent guy after me... but I dunno if she will be able to recover ever.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

You should move out all your valuables. Personal documents, irreplaceable items, etc


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

NO OFFENSE, but it isnt your problem if she doesnt recover. SHE is responsible for her own life, and if she chooses to spend it wallowing in her own self pity, she is the only one to blame for that. She really has done a number on you. I'm sorry it hurts to read that someone thinks she is pathetic, but I call it like I see it, and maybe it will help you to see it as well. Personally, I think she will be fine, because she will find some other soft hearted nice guy to mooch off of, who will take on her problems, the same way you did.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

william_1981 said:


> The shock she will feel will be huge. I doubt she'll go to work the next day. It could be weeks or months until she recovers to normality. She may never recover the psychological damage of someone she *thinks* everything is going A-OK with suddenly coming to a halt.


How do you know this? 

Did you recover when she lied and cheated on you repeatedly?




> *She has said many times I am the nicest guy she ever met*, and thinks I am perfect. If the "perfect guy" suddenly leaves her, will she ever love again? I hope she finds a decent guy after me... but I dunno if she will be able to recover ever.


Users always say this about their victims.


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## william_1981 (Mar 12, 2013)

Damn. Thanks for the replies people. I know I only presented one side of the coin (ie her ugly side) but it's nice to know that you support my decision. And 3xnocharm... thanks for your honesty. Keep calling it as you see it.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I think you should have the decency to tell her to her face that you are leaving & the reasons why. It is cowardly the way you are planning it.

MOST people who get dumped don't respond well. If she turns violent, call the police. At least there will be a DV report already on file if she turns into a stalker.


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## william_1981 (Mar 12, 2013)

Emerald said:


> I think you should have the decency to tell her to her face that you are leaving & the reasons why. It is cowardly the way you are planning it.
> 
> MOST people who get dumped don't respond well. If she turns violent, call the police. At least there will be a DV report already on file if she turns into a stalker.


I guess I didn't say what I would do the day of breaking up. On July 3rd I am planning to move all my possessions out. Then after she gets home from work, I will be waiting there to tell her why my stuff is missing and why I will not be staying the night... or any other nights.

I will leave her a letter, too, detailing the financial aspects of it all which work out in a good favor to her (I'll be paying the remainder of the rent).

The hardest thing will be to make it quick. I am sure she will want to keep asking me questions...

I think what I will do is leave her either another letter with more description of why I am leaving, either that or email her. But I will let her know the basics face-to-face. I mean, she pretty much already knows the basics and may not be *that* surprised... many times she said to me stuff like "I hope you don't leave me" while crying... 

So, she knows it is a possibility at least...

But yeah, you're right. I'll break up face-to-face. That's the decent thing to do.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

And when she turns on that flood of tears, as she will, are you going to be strong enough to walk away?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

William, welcome to the TAM forum. The behaviors you describe -- temper tantrums, verbal abuse, strong fear of abandonment (e.g., irrational jealousy of exGFs), lack of impulse control, and rapid flips between adoring you and devaluing you -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has.

Of course, only a professional can determine whether your GF's BPD traits are so strong as to meet 100% of the diagnostic guidelines for having full-blown BPD. You therefore cannot _diagnose_ your GF's issues. Simply _spotting the BPD warning signs_, however, is not difficult if you take a little time to learn what red flags to look for. I therefore suggest you read about the nine BPD symptoms to see if most of them sound very familiar.


william_1981 said:


> Although I just described her worst moments, typically she is very sweet & caring. She is like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.


One of the main hallmarks of having strong BPD traits is the ability to flip -- in only a few seconds -- between adoring you and devaluing you. And a few hours or days later, a BPDer can flip back again just as quickly.

These rapid flips betwee Jekyll and Hyde occur because BPDers (i.e., those having strong traits) have such a fragile, unstable sense of self that they cannot tolerate ambiguities, uncertainties, mixed feelings, or other grey areas. Hence, with interpersonal relationships, they routinely shoehorn everyone into a black or white box. 

This black-white thinking will be most evident in the way a BPDer categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- and will recategorize someone, in just a few seconds, from one polar extreme to the other based solely on a minor comment or infraction. This B-W thinking also will be evident in the frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions such as "you ALWAYS..." and "you NEVER...."


> She worked at Japanese "gentlemen clubs" ....she sort of engaged in prostitution in Canada with this guy who was in her table tennis club.... She charged him for "dinner" yet had a physical relationship with him.


BPD is strongly associated with prostitution and stripping. Psychiatrist Mary Anne Layden states that most strippers, as with other women who work in the sex industry, are adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse. She states:
One study found that 35% of strippers have Multiple Personality Disorder, 55% had Borderline Personality Disorder.... See If pornography made us healthy, we would be healthy by now :: Catholic News Agency.​


> She has had a brutal past with her family, mean parents, abusive sister.


Most abused children grow up without developing BPD. The abuse, however, GREATLY raises their risk of doing so. A recent study of about 35,000 American adults (pub. 2008) found that 70% of the diagnosed BPDers reported that they had been abandoned or abused during childhood.


> We had many fights. She often got upset at me if I slipped up and mentioned an ex-girlfriend. ...I should be able to talk about my past, but she didn't like that, since I could have been with other girls in the past.


A BPDer typically is so filled with self loathing and is so unstable that, absent years of treatment, she is incapable of trusting herself or believing that anyone can truly love her. Moreover, because she has a fragile sense of who she is, she usually patterns her behavior after another person so as to know how to fit in and be loved.

The result is that a BPDer typically lives in fear that her partner will stop loving her when he realizes that she is fake and is pretending to be someone else. Significantly, until she has treatment to learn how to trust herself, she is incapable of trusting anyone else for any extended period. 

This means that, if your GF is a BPDer, you will be subjected to one sh!t test after the other. As soon as you pass one test, she will not believe you are trust worthy. Instead, she will simply raise the hoop higher for you to jump through on the next test. With BPDers, then, the more you do to prove your love, the more insistent they become that you cannot. After all, they are convinced they are unlovable.


> I can never fully trust her, although I do feel trust building. But there will always be doubt.


Sadly, it took me 15 years to learn that, when a woman is incapable of trusting me, I could never really trust her -- because she could turn on me at any time (and certainly would).


> She has promised to never be violent again. I dunno if I believe it 100% though.


If she exhibits strong BPD traits, don't believe it even 10%, much less 100%. A person with strong BPD traits frequently experiences very intense feelings because she is unable to manage her emotions. Those feelings are so intense that a BPDer is convinced that they accurately reflect the real world. That is, a BPDer views her own feelings as self-evident "facts." 

The result is that a BPDer typically is sincere when making promises because that is how she is feeling at that moment. A week later, however, she will be equally sincere when she claims that she never actually made such a promise -- or that you forced her into doing it. 

I say she is sincere both times because her subconscious protects her fragile ego by keeping it from seeing too much of reality. The subconscious accomplishes that by projecting hurtful thoughts and feelings onto you, thus allowing her conscious mind to truly believe that all the harm and broken promises are coming from YOU.


> One day she threw two wine glasses against a wall, took out a knife and started to stab a pillow with it over & over again, and then took out her rice cooker and stabbed it until the top of it broke apart. I warned her that I would call 911 and that seemed to stop her cold in her rage.


The lack of impulse control is another hallmark of having strong BPD traits. Indeed, the inability to regulate one's emotions is such a fundamental BPD characteristic that a large faction in the APA has been lobbying for two decades to change the disorder's name to "Emotion Regulation Disorder."

The general view of the psychiatric community is that the emotional development of a BPDer typically is frozen at about age 3 or 4 -- by a trauma occurring then (real or imagined). This means that, if your GF has strong BPD traits, you are seeing the behavior of a woman who has the emotional development of a four year old. This would explain, then, why you are seeing her heavy reliance on the primitive ego defenses that are available to young children (e.g., projection, temper tantrums, lying, and magical thinking).


> She came back to me, cried a ton, and begged again to stay with me.


This unending cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back is another classic BPD trait. At the link I provide below (for my other post), I try to explain how this push-pull cycle arises from the BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. 

Namely, I explain that, because those two fears lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum, it is impossible for you to back away from triggering one fear without moving closer to triggering the other. This means, of course, that you are always in a lose-lose situation with a BPDer.


> She really, truly, absolutely loves me.


If she has strong BPD traits, she very likely does love you. Although a narcissist or sociopath would be incapable of loving you, this is not true of BPDers. With respect to love, a BPDer's problem is NOT being unable to love but, rather, being unable to do so in a mature fashion. 

Instead, a BPDer loves in the same way that a four year old loves her own parents -- where "I love you" largely means "I desperately need you to love me." Of course, this is true love. But it is not the mature, adult form of love that is necessay for sustaining a marriage or close long-term friendship. This means that, if you were to marry a BPDer, you would be establishing a parent/child relationship -- not a husband/wife relationship.


> I think she started loving me this much after I threatened to break up with her in December... ever since she's acted like I am the most important thing in her life which she cannot possibly lose.


Because a BPDer has such a fragile, fractured sense of self, she has a powerful desire to find a mate who has a strong personality that can ground her and center her. Yet, when you give her EXACTLY THAT, she will find that she can tolerate the intimacy for only short periods. Because her ego is so weak, she will feel like her personality is disappearing into thin air -- or merging with yours -- during intimacy. It is a very uncomfortable feeling for a person having a weak sense of self. 

To protect her weak ego from that frightening feeling, her subconscious will project it onto you. She therefore will consciously believe that you are controlling, dominating, and suffocating her. The result will be that she will create a fight -- over nothing at all -- to push you away. 

A few hours or days later, however, her fear of abandonment kicks in and she desperately wants to be intimate again. In this way, BPDers typically are capable of loving you the MOST when you are hovering just out of reach (posing a threat of abandonment). As soon as you become reachable, they cannot tolerate intimacy for very long because you are suffocating them (posing a threat of engulfment). I describe this process in greater detail at the link below.


> I was the one helping her daughter around. ...Mari just stood there, sternly, angry, saying she felt embarrassed.


If your GF is a BPDer, this strange behavior does not mean she doesn't love her DD. Rather, it likely means your GF is projecting her own feelings onto the DD, thus believing that those feelings are truly coming from the DD.

I say this because it is common for a BPDer to pretend to be injured (or to grossly exaggerate the injury) in order to create drama and attract attention. Moreover, a BPDer typically creates drama so as to validate her false self image of being "The Victim," always "The Victim." 

Hence, if your GF is a BPDer, she's been playing that victim role for a lifetime. It therefore would be easy for her to project that attention-seeking behavior onto her own daughter. Remember, projection is such a wonderful ego defense because it works entirely at the subconscious level. This means that a BPDer will consciously believe that the projected motivation and feelings is truly coming from the daughter.


> Am I right in just leaving her suddenly? Or should I tell her in advance?


William, if you decide that she has strong BPD traits, you would be foolish to give her advance warning that you are moving out -- i.e., that her worst fear (abandonment) is being realized. At BPDfamily.com, for example, you will find that the consensus (in the "Leaving" forum) is that the departure should be a surprise -- because BPDers are so unstable that you cannot predict what they may do. My exW, for example, called the police and had me thrown into jail on a bogus charge.

While you are at BPDfamily, please check out the excellent articles in the resources section. The two articles that likely will be most helpful to you -- if your GF is a BPDer -- is Article 10 at T10 Leaving a Partner wth Borderline Personality Disorder/Borderline Personality Disorder - Joseph Carver, PhD. and Article 9 at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York.

This is not to say that you cannot tell her face to face. I agree with Emerald that it would be decent for you to tell her in person. You could do that, for example, by meeting her at a restaurant or other public place. Alternatively, if you tell her before moving all your furniture, you should have a friend or two with you when you return for your belongings.

And, because there is a danger of your being harmed or arrested on a bogus charge, it would be prudent to have a small VAR in your shirt pocket to record what is being said.


> _I dunno if she will be able to recover ever._...I am feeling terribly guilty.


If she has strong BPD traits, it is possible for her to recover because there are excellent treatment programs available there in Canada, as well as here in the U.S. Yet, as long as you continue your enabling behavior -- i.e., allowing her to continue throwing temper tantrums and stabbing pillows and GETTING AWAY WITH IT -- you are harming her by staying. 

If she is to ever have any incentive to confront her issues and learn how to manage them, she must be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior. In my own case, once I understood that I had been harming my exW by enabling her childish behavior, it went a long way toward eliminating my guilt over leaving her.


> Now, I know she has had counseling in the past.


William, your GF exhibits all nine of the BPD traits. I know this only because every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all of these traits, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. At issue, then, is NOT whether your GF exhibits the nine traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits most of these traits at a strong level. Not having met her, I don't know the answer to that question. I nonetheless am confident that you can learn to spot any and all strong BPD traits that are occurring. There is nothing subtle about traits such as temper tantrums, verbal abuse, and inability to trust.

I therefore suggest that you read my description of BPD traits at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings lots of bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, William.


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## william_1981 (Mar 12, 2013)

Uptown said:


> William, welcome to the TAM forum. The behaviors you describe -- temper tantrums, verbal abuse, strong fear of abandonment (e.g., irrational jealousy of exGFs), lack of impulse control, and rapid flips between adoring you and devaluing you -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has.


Hi Uptown. I read your post like three times now... researched into BPD, and you've totally nailed it for me. I had no idea that condition even existed. To be honest, I never knew much about these types of disorders.

But absolutely ever point you made... I mean... absolutely *every* point was spot on. You've totally nailed it. Truly a great post you've made and I thank you a million for spending time and writing this to a complete stranger.

It's quite tough for me to leave this girl because I truly love & care about her. It reminds me of abandoning a child on the street. I really don't know how she'll be doing without me. And that hurts me and makes me feel bad.

The strange thing is... she exhibits all of those traits you mentioned. But that makes up a small part of her personality. Very small... but significant enough. As that small problem can explode into a bigger one... If only she could get her BPD fixed or removed, she'd be perfect. It's just that BPD is such a huge, crazy, scary thing that I am very, very, *very* worried about what it might mean if I dedicate myself fully to her.

To be honest, since December (the time I tried breaking up with her) I haven't been getting too close to her in order to protect myself. Psychologically. I don't want to be hurt either. Plus, I don't want to hurt her as much. So I am not as intimate as I could be. I am not there for her as much as I would have been before... She knows that... she felt it, I told her, and we discussed it.

Honestly... if somehow she got the help she needed or was completely removed of BPD I would marry the girl. It's weird when someone you like so much has such a big scary condition that can completely ruin my/our lives. Although I didn't mention it here, she really has amazing... great... wonderful traits. I mean, there is a reason I am with her! There is a reason I refer to her as the love of my life. But she has that cancerous growth of a personality problem known as BPD and I am now convinced, by your post, that this is dangerous stuff... Also, convinced, from my experience. But I look forward into the future and I wonder... will this ever go away? Will it fix itself? Will it get worse? I don't know. I am not sure I can risk it.

In 5 years, everything may be fine... then I find out she's cheated. What would that mean if we have a child of our own and are married?

It's happened before. It can happen again. 

What happens if she ever loses her temper and gets violent again? (I would break up...) But what if my/our child was around to witness that? Already her child witnessed that and I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemie's childhood. I grew up in a very loving, happy family... parents never fought in front of me once... Yet here I am, trying to do good and maybe better than my parents... and *that* happens.

This is why I am still sticking to my decision to leave. Yes, I often get pulled back into thinking "maybe if I stay with her everything will be alright" but I just cannot know for sure.

I have another question:

1) If I leave her, then this relationship is truly over? What if she made a big effort to get better? Maybe date for a while?

I'll answer what I think about that question, then you go ahead. I asked myself that question a lot and thought... if I leave her, then come back to her, that might be a big point of contention between us. She'd be paranoid about me leaving her again. She'd continually not trust me... she'd express her anger at me, and funnel how she was hurt when I left her into torturing me and making me pay for it. I don't know if she would smile, accept me with open arms, and then ride off into the sunset with me. While I wish that could be the case, this is the real world...not a movie. 

So... unfortunately (in some ways) I think when I leave her, it will be "for good."


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

William, thanks for the detailed and articulate update. I'm glad to hear you found the information helpful.


william_1981 said:


> It's quite tough for me to leave this girl because I truly love & care about her. It reminds me of abandoning a child on the street.


Yes, I felt the same way. It is extremely painful to walk away from a BPDer because, when they are behaving good, they are very VERY good. Moreover, they have a purity of emotions and expression that allows them to exude a warmth and charm that otherwise is seen only in young children. It therefore is not surprising that two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD (if their biographers are to be believed).


> Although I didn't mention it here, she really has amazing... great... wonderful traits. I mean, there is a reason I am with her!


I believe you. Likewise, my BPDer exW was the love of my life and leaving her made me feel like I was grieving a death. Not only was she the most beautiful woman I've ever dated but she had an amazingly warm personality that made other people feel drawn to her. Within a half hour, total strangers would feel like they had known her for a long time.


> I wonder... will this ever go away? Will it fix itself? Will it get worse? I don't know.


If your GF has a strong and persistent pattern of BPD traits, the answer is that -- no -- it will not fix itself or go away. Although there are many excellent treatment programs available, it likely would take at least several years of weekly therapy to make significant progress. 

Moreover, because BPDers have great difficulty trusting anyone, it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to seek therapy and stay in it very long. Therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a BPDer remain in therapy long enough to make a difference.

While I believe Schreiber's view is an exaggeration, I still would be surprised if as many as 1 in 100 BPDers have the self awareness and ego strength required to do well in therapy. Sadly, the nature of the disorder fills a BPDer with so much shame and self loathing that her subconscious will protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality by blocking her self awareness.


> If I leave her, then this relationship is truly over? What if she made a big effort to get better? Maybe date for a while?


I like the answer you provide. I will only add that, even in the very unlikely event that she improves in five years, HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? By their very nature, BPDers are emotionally unstable. This means that, in the same way that you will see smokers "quitting" every three weeks, you typically will see BPDers dramatically improving every several weeks (while they are splitting you "white" during the upside of the cycle). 

On top of that instability problem, you also have the problem caused by the infatuation she may feel about you when reuniting a few years down the road. As you already know too well, her strong BPD traits totally disappeared for several months during your courtship -- because her infatuation over you held her two great fears at bay.


> I think when I leave her, it will be "for good."


If she has strong BPD traits, I think so too. Yet, when my exW had me thrown into jail, it took me a long time to reach that obvious conclusion. After I got out of jail and learned that she had taken out a R/O against me, I still was not ready to abandon my little-girl W. I simply could not believe that she was capable of standing up in court -- in front of my step children -- and making such an outrageous claim. So, until I saw her do that with my own eyes six months later, I would not file for D.

Even after I filed, however, I still would not let go of our friendship. I kept accepting her calls for another two years (about 8 months passed the D). One day she called and asked me if I would ever resume returning her calls so we could be friends. I asked her if she still thought I was a violent man who told a new lie every week. She replied that, yes, she still believed that. 

I then responded by telling her that, because trust is the foundation on which all human relationships must be built, it was impossible for us to ever be friends again. I told her that she was simply incapable of ever trusting me. Since then, I've declined to pick up the phone whenever she called. So she stopped calling. I therefore suspect that, if your GF has strong BPD traits, you will find that you can never trust a person who is incapable of trusting herself or anyone else.


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## william_1981 (Mar 12, 2013)

Thanks again, Uptown. Yes it's clear to me she has big time BPD traits. Although she has matured during our relationship, she really is very emotionally unstable and it's difficult to be in a relationship with her because of it. The last few days has been very difficult as she's been noticing that I'm not as intimate as I used to be... that I may not love her anymore. She tried using her daughter to guilt trip me the other day... which Ill get to.

Just a few days ago we had a big conversation. She cried a lot. She realized that there's nothing she can do to save e relationship and I said I would like some space. I repeated why I don't feel the same way about her. The day after I had a business meeting where I was nearby her workplace. But the business meeting had no definite ending time. I let her know this. She wanted me to pick her up from her work because "she wanted to see me." I let her know that I couldn't and that she better pick up her daughter from after school care or else she'll get charged a ton of money (it's $10 a minute for late pick ups). She kept bugging me during my meeting and finally I had to take a break from the meeting to deal with her. Why she couldn't just meet me at home later doesn't make sense... unless of course you realize that her emotional intelligence is that of a young child. Finally my meeting ended and I headed home, and she got her daughter, and they intercepted me on my way home. Her daughter ran up to me, hugged, me then said "mommy thinks you don't like her anymore." This kind of behavior... Using her daughter to guilt trip me was not cool and I mentioned it later to Mari... of course which resulted in many tears again. I am so used to seeing her cry. I know she really regrets the things she has done... and wants me to stay with her so much. But now, I just don't feel it anymore.

I mean, I kind of love her (maybe like a friend now) and care for her. But I am definitely not "in love" with her and don't foresee any future at all.

Why can't I see a future? I'll think out loud here:
1) I can never celebrate her birthday - it's the day I found out she cheated on me... 
2) I can never feel totally secure with her (because she cheated)
3) I can never fully trust her about anything (as it was the guy who told me about it, not her - plus she lied to me for months about cheating with another guy before finally confessing)
4) I can't celebrate our first day or anniversary together (as there was cheating going on... I don't view it as special. I don't feel special)
5) I can never fully enjoy the sex with her (as I have annoying nagging thoughts of her promiscuity and I just don't feel special at all if it meant nothing to her to just have sex with whoever, whenever)
6) I don't feel we could ever have a normal family life (it's already messed up... The way she treats her daughter. Once is bus trip overnight where I insisted she sit with her daughter so she could sleep, Mari felt jealous I was sitting next to some other girl. She demanded I sit next to her. Her poor daughter wanted to sleep but couldn't sleep in a single chair, next to a stranger, so she awkwardly tried to sleep on our laps but couldn't, staying awake the entire time because it was so uncomfortable. I couldn't believe this is how she treated her daughter... )
7) I can not look at some of our early "falling in love" photos due to the fact she was cheating constantly in me at that time, and I had thought I was the only guy for her at the time
8) We are intellectually, emotionally, so far apart (I come from a stable background, am a very stable good guy while she is severely unstable)
9) Even if I could trust her, I cannot trust her for the future (the BPD traits just trump any hope, she is just too unstable, too unpredictable)

My mind will never be at ease. Although the anti-depressants are helping her (she started them in December) from the giant mood swings I'm always afraid. It's not cool to live in fear. I can never get certain things out of my head... The image of her stabbing a pillow and rice cooker over and over wi a knife is pretty scary. What if she one day wants to stab me? I mean... You never know.

Now I'm staying at my parents for a week. I took off after the latest argument, saying I need space. She was surprisingly mature the last time I saw her, saying that she understands that I will make my decision and that she cannot stop me. That what I decide is what I decide, and that if I don't feel the same way about her, there's nothing she can do.

So I'm all prepped now to move into my new place. I'm ready to leave her. Her daughter will be delivered to the grandparents just before I break up with her and leave her for good. Everything is set. I still feel bad about it but have a sense of peace now about it. I love that I have an awesome family who supports my decision after I revealed the ugly truth about Mari.


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## Oldrandwisr (Jun 22, 2013)

This post pales to the above, but I want to reinforce for you that her behavior may be exaggerated as much as she subconsciously believes it needs to get the reaction she wants from you. She may just be an excellent actress.

The child is an innocent bystander unfortunately, but it sounds like the child has some other good role models in her life. Children are resilient and so many turn out ok despite a dysfunctional parent.

You are not responsible for raising Mari. She may never grow up or it may take years of counseling. Do you want to invest so many years of precious life to relieve yourself of the guilt?

Stay strong


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## william_1981 (Mar 12, 2013)

Yeah her daughter will be well provided for. Her Dad is somewhat active in her life (he lives 5 hour drive away). He sees her two days a month plus two weeks in Summer, pays child support. I don't think he's a bad guy. His parents are super nice and care a lot about Mari's daughter. They are well off, educated, nice upper middle class family who seem quite together and provide clothes, gifts, etc for Mari & her daughter. They even offered us a free pretty nice car but we refused as we don't need it. So yeah her daughter will be fine.

After reading this forum my problems seem small compared with others here. But the greatest thing about this site is how everyone is so supportive of each other. I really understand now that there is no point to continue on in a relationship like the one I'm in. I almost feel lucky that its over now before anything worse happens...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

william_1981 said:


> What if she one day wants to stab me? I mean... You never know.


You do know, however, that an unstable person will eventually turn on you. Until she learns how to love and trust herself, she is incapable of trusting anyone else for an extended period. I therefore am so glad to hear that you are getting out of this toxic relationship after just one year -- instead of following the path I took for 15 years. That path does not end well.

William, thanks so much for returning to TAM to give us another detailed update on your situation. I was wondering how you're doing. Sounds like you are doing just fine!


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## mgtowman (Jun 1, 2013)

You are what is referred to in MGTOW circles as a "White Knight". You walk into a mess that a woman has created and try to "clean up" that mess and rescue her in exchange for access to her vagina. She views you as a sucker and a beta male provider.

So you need to run. Run like the wind. Run like your freedom depends on it because it does.

Do not have sex with this woman ever again - if an "accident" occurs and she becomes pregnant your life as a free man will be over.

Do not ever date a single mother - they are financial train wrecks and emotional terrorists. There is a reason they are "single" mothers.............


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## william_1981 (Mar 12, 2013)

Well, I did it. I moved out all of my stuff into a new apartment building. I had a friend help me. It went well. I thanked my friend and cleaned up the apartment, as I made a bit of a mess moving things. Then I waited in the apartment.

The whole day Mari tried texting me from work. She had cried a lot the night before, and it was getting to the point where it really would have been hellish to live together a few more months. Many of the texts were begging me to stay together. She even said I need counseling. I said I cannot be counseled into falling in love again. She said sorry many times and finally at 1:30am I said I'd really like to sleep... Finally she said goodnight. The morning she told me even if I don't love her to treat her like I do. To fake it. I said I cannot fake it. As I was worried she would be late for work, I told her fine, I'll act like we're in a relationship until its over. Little did she know that the relationship would officially last only a few more hours.

Anyways, when she came home from work, she looked sad and after a few steps inside noticed things were missing. All my things. Suddenly it looked like something hit her and she fell to the ground, crying. I told her very gently that there's no future and I am not in love with her anymore. I also explained that she doesn't need to pay rent for two months (the lease expires on Sept.30) and this gives her lots of time to decide what to do. I also explained that I broke up with her now as her daughter is away for 6 weeks or so.

It was really tough for me to do but I'm glad it's done. I feel bad, I really do. I think she really thought she had a guy wrapped around her finger... but no, it didn't work this time. I really feel like I abandoned a small child on the street.

Now Mari is alone. She doesn't have her daughter, her parents (who are not on good terms with her) live in Japan. She doesn't seem to have close friends. I feel bad since I guess for the last while, I made up a large chunk of her life.

I wished her and her daughter the best. I told her I do not want contact with her. She begged me to stay together and wouldn't let me leave the apartment. She kept trying to block me. But I was firm and said again and again to let me leave. Finally she let me go. I heard her wailing from the elevator in the hallway. It really felt so bad to hear this...

So she called one of my friends who is the wife of my best friend. She wanted her (let's call her H) to try to persuade me to stay with Mari. To tell me she's a good girlfriend. H was actually aware f the situation with Mari and tried to counsel her as best she could... Being nice enough, but telling Mari that she should respect my decision. Mari lied (or not, I dunno) about not being able to call me. My phone was on, I never got any calls from her, so I thought that was weird. Finally Mari called. I hesitated to pick up but figured I should. I basically said the same stuff as before... That its over. I'm done. Not in love anymore. I wish her the best. I helped her with the two months rent. All my stuff is out, the place is hers. We are square... No money owed. I think I was as nice about it as I could be. I had to be a bit cold. But I really drove home the point that:
1) it's over
2) there's no chance of a future relationship with us

I also asked her to give me space, not to call me. She really wanted some future contact so I agreed I'll read a well thought out email she can send me in a week when emotions have settled. I will read it and reply, but I'll just say the same stuff as before:

1) it's over
2) there's no chance of a future relationship with us

So that's it. Done. Thanks to all of you who helped me and supported this decision. I think it's one of the best choices I made.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

mgtowman said:


> Do not ever date a single mother - they are financial train wrecks and emotional terrorists. There is a reason they are "single" mothers.............


Real nice. I'm not sure what "single mothers" you are referring to. Not all single mothers are financial train wrecks and emotional terrorists. It's like saying all men are dogs.

I was a single mother before I met my husband. My ex h is a serial cheater and cheated several times. I wasn't a financial train wreck. In fact I was the breadwinner in my first marriage. After my divorce I furthered my education for a better career. I have it pretty much together emotionally. I always have.

There is nothing wrong with dating single mothers or single fathers.


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## MSC71 (Aug 1, 2012)

*Re: Re: Guilt over Leaving Single Mother*



mgtowman said:


> Do not ever date a single mother - they are financial train wrecks and emotional terrorists. There is a reason they are "single" mothers.............


Wow. Nice way to lump all single moms into one category. BTW, every single mom I have dated is the opposite.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

William, thanks for telling us about the move-out day. You are amazing. You apparently did everything by the book -- just perfect. I wish I had had you around to advise me before I made the foolish decision to marry my BPDer exW. What you did freed you up to have a mature relationship with another woman. 

And it gave Mari her best opportunity to have to confront her issues and learn how to manage them. If she is a BPDer as you suspect, it is important to stop enabling her childish behavior and to allow her to suffer the logical consequences of her own choices. That is exactly what you've done. Again, I applaud your maturity and strength and the firm personal boundaries that you established.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

mgtowman said:


> Do not ever date a single mother - they are financial train wrecks and emotional terrorists. There is a reason they are "single" mothers.............


Stereotype much? You bet there are some divorced women who own much of the reason for the divorce, but it's not always the case.

Several friends have married wonderful women who were single mothers. One was a widow, how was that her fault in any way? Another was married to a narcissist, a mistake of tying the knot with the man that knocked her up in high school. A poor judgement on who she spread her legs for 17 years ago affects her to this day, but does not define her.


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## donewithit (Apr 7, 2010)

Do not ever date a single mother - they are financial train wrecks and emotional terrorists. There is a reason they are "single" mothers.............[/QUOTE]

seriously??? I was a single mother that ten years ago married a single father. neither one of us were emotional terrorists NOR financial train wrecks.. granted we both were making decent money and not receiving child support so we were both tight for money. 

we blended our families beautifully.. and live in a beautiful home and drive new vehicles, and are debt free except mortgage. Two financial train wrecks according to you!


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

mgtowman said:


> You are what is referred to in MGTOW circles as a "White Knight". You walk into a mess that a woman has created and try to "clean up" that mess and rescue her in exchange for access to her vagina. She views you as a sucker and a beta male provider.
> 
> So you need to run. Run like the wind. Run like your freedom depends on it because it does.
> 
> ...


You are an ignorant, misogynistic, generalizing jack-ass.


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## william_1981 (Mar 12, 2013)

Uptown said:


> William, thanks for telling us about the move-out day. You are amazing. You apparently did everything by the book -- just perfect. I wish I had had you around to advise me before I made the foolish decision to marry my BPDer exW. What you did freed you up to have a mature relationship with another woman.
> 
> And it gave Mari her best opportunity to have to confront her issues and learn how to manage them. If she is a BPDer as you suspect, it is important to stop enabling her childish behavior and to allow her to suffer the logical consequences of her own choices. That is exactly what you've done. Again, I applaud your maturity and strength and the firm personal boundaries that you established.


Thank you so much for your reply. I was feeling down today... Basically my financial situation for the short term is going to be hard. But it will even out in a few months. Reading your reply made my day. Thanks again!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> You are an ignorant, misogynistic, generalizing jack-ass.


Well yes, but not worth risking a ban over.


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