# I need to speak up soon



## purplepolkadots (May 17, 2018)

I feel like things have been dead in my relationship for nearly 3 years. I thought things were going to change last year, but they have not. When I realized they weren't going to change, I started the process of letting go. The problem is, I'm still married, there are kids involved, and although my husband was the first to disengage from the marriage, I know he doesn't want to let go of it. Shortly before our last real conversation about our marriage, he revealed that he thought he was "giving me space" rather than "disengaging." But the truth is, I wasn't in need of "space!" I had been hurt by his disengagement and had been desperately trying to initiate change and couldn't figure out how to get him to reengage. This led to frustration and less than ideal behavior on my part. Since it got to a point where it seemed he was looking to change, I had suggested that rather than trying to continue as we were, we try seeking out information to help us fix our problems. He rejected this idea and felt that we just needed to spend more time together (we needed far more than that though). This rejection of outside information/help, felt like a rejection of me, so I stopped trying to be the one to initiate change. I couldn't take the stress of this one-sided effort anymore. I decided to wait for him to come to me. We're approaching a year since I decided I was done trying to force things and that means it's been almost a year of no real progress in our situation. I don't have unreasonable expectations of a long term relationship. I just want to feel like we're on the same team and to actually want to spend time together. It doesn't feel like we're on the same team, I can't see the future continuing this way, and neither of us really makes an effort to spend time together at this point. If I leave it up to him, it's just going to keep getting worse. I need to be the one to initiate change... He seems oblivious to where things are at with us. I don't know how to approach things... I married to be together for life, but at this point, there's no real relationship except to co-parent and keep the household running...


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## Mywifecanhelp (May 16, 2018)

Have you been very explicit in what what you need from him in order to feel he is more engaged. Sometimes men need specific instructions. Saying something like i need you to be more engaged can be to vague for many therefore they might just do nothing.


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## purplepolkadots (May 17, 2018)

Mywifecanhelp said:


> Have you been very explicit in what what you need from him in order to feel he is more engaged. Sometimes men need specific instructions. Saying something like i need you to be more engaged can be to vague for many therefore they might just do nothing.


Before things had gone to far, I talked to him about bedtime. He made up excuses about how he's not tired that early, entirely missing the point that when we go to bed together, we spend key intimate time together both physically and emotionally. I believe I was explicit about that too. There were times in the evening when I could drag him out of the room he hides away in, but then he'd just be acting like I was to supply some "valid" reason for him to be there. He clearly did not want to be there. Whatever happened to the days where we would spend time together because we enjoyed it? The days when there was no pressure for one person to supply a reason to validate not going and hiding away in the other room? Yes "spending more time together" is necessary, but that's not all that needs to happen.

There were also some argumentative, tone of voice, and defensiveness patterns I've continued to address despite giving up on some of the other issues because these patterns affect my kids if they're hearing them... And because I don't have the energy for them at this point.


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## Mywifecanhelp (May 16, 2018)

If it hadn't been going on for three years I would say it could be stress he is dealing with. I know when things are particularly stressful for me I tend to seek solitude because my mind has way to much rattling around in there. But that is usually short spurts a week here and a week there. 

Can you think of anything that could have started this three years ago? Did something happen that could have triggered this or was it a slower evolution? 

This is not a good situation if he has no interest in working to fix this. I can only imagine how frustrating this must be for you. Unfortunately I don't think he is going to change on his own. 

Maybe a vacation with just the two of you to try and reconnect without the stress and distractions of day to day life.

Or train him like Pavlov's dog. He comes to be with you he gets a HJ. Do that every night for a week. He's coming to bed every night without knowing quite why.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

I see myself in a lot of the posts lately and it hits me right in the gut. I'm hoping my responses can help in some way gain insight. Let me dive in but first. When I read your post from what you described, it seemed really vague. I'm sure you are letting your husband know in your own words what you need or at the least you think you are getting the point across but it might not be in a language he understands frankly.

Now how I see myself in this. My STBXW goes to bed pretty early, well at least she did before the affair. Like 9PM. I am a night owl and ran a side company but would wait for everyone to go to bed before I would work on it. I would stay up til 2-3AM in the morning and would fall asleep on the couch a lot of times. In addition to that, for years and years I slept on my kids' floors so they could fall asleep, not smart for many reasons but I did what I thought would help them and in a way, really thought it was helping my wife, so she could get the sleep she needed. This, I'm sure caused a breakdown in intimacy but as the kids got older, we had to do that less, plus all the things the kids can do on their own as they are now 7 and almost 11. I thought my wife and I were starting to find out groove again.

I wanted more intimacy and I understood the going to bed the same time as her thing via her recommendations but when I did, nothing would happen. When I initiated, she would be too tired or not tonight or whatever and when she did oblige there was sighing and the feeling that this was an unwanted chore. It broke me internally and caused me to stop trying often. I would try once or twice and month and then ball it up and try again a month later. It was not good. In 2015, I just accepted that maybe she wasn't that sexual anymore and I either needed to accept this life or do something about it. I decided that I loved my life aside from the sex and it could still change when the kids were out of the house or teenagers and out doing their own thing, things would get better and even if they didn't, I would have traded rare sex for a life of me being with my wife and kids together forever. She told me to try more but I was discouraged when I would try and she would reject. Still, I thought thinks were good, at least ok, she told me things were good in 2016. I was her rock, she would ask me if I would ever leave her when she felt bad about how she treated me. 

To add some more background to this, hindsight is 20/20 but should have realized that someone as sexual as my wife before we met and during out early dating and marriage years, you just don't change that drastically, the respect and attraction did for whatever reason. We did have some bumps along the road. Marriage counseling and a rough patch in 2008 and at least an EA by her in 2009, where she almost left. We had our 2nd child in 2011 and she was born with a hole in her heart. It took a year of intense therapy and care after heart surgery. We didn't touch each other that much during that year and certainly didn't have sex. In 2012, with a 100% healthy daughter, we started to connect again. In 2013, we started plans to build a new house and in 2014 we moved into our dream home. Things were going ok but again, me sleeping on the floor, me wanting more sex and her telling me it just wasn't that important to her but we were good.

In May of 2017, right after Mother's Day, something was wrong but I had no idea what it was. It went on for a week, she was completely a different person. I asked what was wrong and all she said was that it was something that she needed to figure out on her own. It started off with her being upset with the cookies that I had made for her for Mother's Day. It was from the bakery she wanted but in Spongebob's design with "The Best Mom Ever" instead of the the Best Day ever in Spongebob. Thought her and the kids would get a kick out of it. The response was an odd look and I didn't really know her if that's the cookies I got her.

After over a week of being treated like garbage we went to a wedding but I wasn't thrilled and wasn't real upbeat and neither was she so she took this as a slight. The next week, we went to the zoo and then we came back and I went grocery shopping. I bought popcorn even though we had popcorn in the pantry already and she went ballistic. Something was really wrong. I noticed the phone habits were changing. A long story short. She had ran into the guy out in the field that she had an affair with 8 years earlier. 1 year after that, we are about a month away from a finalized divorce. She picked him over me even though she denies it was about him and it was all about her not being right together and re-writing our marriage history and flushing our 18 years together down the drain so she can be 'happy'.

I bring my story into it because I just want you to be clear and direct with your husband, that's all we can ask of you. I changed everything I did once I found out she was thinking of leaving. I re-dedicated every action and breath to better myself as a husband and man for her but nothing worked and I couldn't figure out why until 6 months later when I found out after DDay, she never quit the affair when I found out in June, she just took it more secretive. She said would have left me anyway, it had nothing to do with him, many, many times. Here's where I want you to listen. She said, she told me everything she needed, everything she needed me to do often and I didn't listen. I thought I was doing fine as a husband, I dedicate my life to her and my kids, maybe to a fault with the kids but I let her wear the pants because that's what I thought she wanted and I handled the finances and kept my emotions in check to be everything I thought she needed me to be. When she said, why did it take the affair for me to make all of these changes, my response was all she ever needed to do and I would have done anything she needed from me, was say "Honey, if we don't work on this, I'm not sure I can live like this or stay married, etc" I never got anything even remotely direct to that. All I ever got was that she wasn't happy but whatever we did, she wasn't real happy and this was something that was an issue her whole life, not just with me.

Sorry if I got off on a tangent but I just urge you to be as direct as possible with your husband and let him know the stakes. My counselor and those close to me say I couldn't have prevented the affair, it happened before and it may have happened with others that I don't know about but aside from that, I still regret the things I could have done better as a husband. My counselor said I can't dwell on those things but it's good that I think about it so I can continue to grow. I pray that you guys can avoid what happened to me, I wouldn't wish this on anyone.


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## purplepolkadots (May 17, 2018)

The pattern of getting frustrated with him "hiding away" or being too involved in something like a game on the computer isn't entirely new. It has existed for most of our relationship. However, it wasn't to the exclusion of our emotional intimacy and sense of being a team. It was something that was there. Neither of us know exactly when issues started, but we both agree that it was sometime after the birth of our second child. He says that he thought I was trying to distance myself, but I honestly have no idea what he's talking about. He claims that his distancing was to "give me space." I don't get it. First of all, I was desperate for him to care about things again and kept trying to pull him out of his shell. And secondly, if he thought I was trying to distance myself, shouldn't that be an alarm bell to discuss things with me?

Lately, I feel like I'm the "bad guy." There are definitely times where he has acted like everything is fine, but I'm simmering below the surface and do not always respond in the most welcoming ways. At this point it is me that's pushing him away. But I just can't act like everything is fine when we need to dig deeper and he won't. I pushed and tried to engage him for 2 years without a satisfactory response and for my own mental health, I have to accept where things are and when I do that, I honestly don't want what I had been pushing for for 2 years.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

purplepolkadots said:


> The pattern of getting frustrated with him "hiding away" or being too involved in something like a game on the computer isn't entirely new. It has existed for most of our relationship. However, it wasn't to the exclusion of our emotional intimacy and sense of being a team. It was something that was there. Neither of us know exactly when issues started, but we both agree that it was sometime after the birth of our second child. He says that he thought I was trying to distance myself, but I honestly have no idea what he's talking about. He claims that his distancing was to "give me space." I don't get it. First of all, I was desperate for him to care about things again and kept trying to pull him out of his shell. And secondly, if he thought I was trying to distance myself, shouldn't that be an alarm bell to discuss things with me?
> 
> Lately, I feel like I'm the "bad guy." There are definitely times where he has acted like everything is fine, but I'm simmering below the surface and do not always respond in the most welcoming ways. At this point it is me that's pushing him away. But I just can't act like everything is fine when we need to dig deeper and he won't. I pushed and tried to engage him for 2 years without a satisfactory response and for my own mental health, I have to accept where things are and when I do that, I honestly don't want what I had been pushing for for 2 years.


I am sorry you are at this point and once you hit this point it's hard to come back from because of the resentment but I'm still a little confused by the strategy. You may disagree but I just don't think you were direct enough with him, kind of like you wanted him to read your mind in a way to understand you without giving him the roadmap to understand you in a direct way. Honestly, you had resentment and maybe set him up to fail. He certainly didn't help himself but I am not willing to toss him aside just yet. 

If you can find it in your heart to give him a shot and to get some marriage counseling, this sounds like a situation that needs a lot of clarity and for him to be attentive to it and counseling could help with these exercises. If you belong to a religious organization, they have retreats for this as well that could be beneficial.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

And as far as the game thing goes, I know about that too. When I kept getting rejected intimately and when I would come home and try to start a conversation with my STBXW and she would say "(name) I don't care" or would start talking to someone else when I started to talk to her mid-sentence, it hurt. So I sort of buried myself in my work but at the same time I didn't give up, I never did.


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## purplepolkadots (May 17, 2018)

"I wanted more intimacy and I understood the going to bed the same time as her thing via her recommendations but when I did, nothing would happen. When I initiated, she would be too tired or not tonight or whatever and when she did oblige there was sighing and the feeling that this was an unwanted chore."

Yes, when things go too far, that's how it is. My heart wouldn't be in it now either. As a matter of fact, I'm aware of pushing him away from this at this point. Things needed to have changed a long time ago! And just because you stay up, doesn't mean you can't spend some quality time together first! 

"The response was an odd look and I didn't really know her if that's the cookies I got her."
I can relate to that. It's not the cookies. It's the fact that you're so disconnected and the cookies are just one more reminder of that. I can totally relate to her on that one.

As for stating the stakes, I told him that I can't love someone who I don't feel love back from. I told him that certain issues were a matter of lack of connection. I told him that I didn't know how to fix things without outside help. Before things got to a breaking point, I would sit him down and have a discussion with him about what I needed. He'd temporarily fix it, but ALWAYS went back to his hold habits. It never stuck and he never initiated fixing things.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

purplepolkadots said:


> Before things had gone to far, I talked to him about bedtime. He *made up excuses* about how he's not tired that early, *entirely missing the point* that when we go to bed together, we spend key intimate time together both physically and emotionally.


I am guilty of what I am about to say to you. Don't talk about the solution (bedtime) talk about the issue (intimacy). If he does not want to go to bed that early, that is NOT an excuse _from his PoV_. He does not want to sign up to go to bed too early every night because it might be an intimate moment. He might not want to have intimate moments every day or every other day. Focus on what you want, intimacy. Not bedtime.



> I believe I was explicit about that too. There were times in the evening when I could drag him out of the room he hides away in, but then he'd just be acting like I was to supply some "valid" reason for him to be there. He clearly did not want to be there. Whatever happened to the days where we would spend time together because we enjoyed it? The days when there was no pressure for one person to supply a reason to validate not going and hiding away in the other room? Yes "spending more time together" is necessary, but that's not all that needs to happen.
> 
> There were also some argumentative, tone of voice, and defensiveness patterns I've continued to address despite giving up on some of the other issues because these patterns affect my kids if they're hearing them... And because I don't have the energy for them at this point.


He is feeling defensive. Why? What is he defending? Are you unwittingly attacking?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Yes, I can relate to this. There is something about marriage and kids whole thing that can turn a man very beta. I got into the work, kids, sleep routine and it got very comfortable to the point where dating or intimacy just took a backseat. After awhile we both kind of did our own thing.

If you ask him, he may think things are not great, but things are not that bad either. He might be in comfort land and usually it takes a hard kick to the balls to knock you out of it.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

purplepolkadots said:


> "I wanted more intimacy and I understood the going to bed the same time as her thing via her recommendations but when I did, nothing would happen. When I initiated, she would be too tired or not tonight or whatever and when she did oblige there was sighing and the feeling that this was an unwanted chore."
> 
> Yes, when things go too far, that's how it is. My heart wouldn't be in it now either. As a matter of fact, I'm aware of pushing him away from this at this point. Things needed to have changed a long time ago! And just because you stay up, doesn't mean you can't spend some quality time together first!
> 
> ...


I'm getting too deep into my own issues  but just wanted to mention that I would ask her if she wanted to watch a movie after the kids went to bed or talk, etc. She would always say, you know I'm too tired to do any of that stuff. It was whatever, I tried, whatever I recommended was met with disapproval or disinterest. I tried to setup times for us to spend new year's eve together as a couple and get a sitter for the kids. She would just say it wasn't worth it.

I'm sorry you have gotten this far, it brings the pain to the forefront for me of what I dealt with and the regrets I have. The things I would certainly do differently if I could, if I would have understood more. It sounds like you have your mind made up but as I see myself in this situation, I can't help but think he may be hurting too. All I ever wanted was my wife to be happy as happy as I was to have the life I had with her and the kids. She would always ask what she could do to make me happy but I had a rough time answering that because I was happy, the only thing I wanted was for her to be happy as well. And again, if I would have known what it took if there was anything I could have done I would have done it. 

Again, it sounds like your mind is made up but I would urge one last shot at counseling and maybe if you still can't have your heart in it, maybe a separation would help you realize how much you mean to each other but that's always a last resort. It's much easier to work on things together in the same place if both are willing to try. If I could help spare people with what I have been through, I would at least see a silver lining in what I had to go through to help.


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## purplepolkadots (May 17, 2018)

Hm... as for the vague strategy and expecting him to read my mind, I am being rather vague on here on purpose, but here's the thing, he did finally realize the extent of the situation about 2 years ago and that realization was followed by communication where I was pretty direct. He even made a bunch of changes based on our discussion and I thought we were on the right track. I also discussed with him that although what we were doing was making life nicer, it wasn't enough. We were still lacking the right sort of connection and I told him I didn't know how to get that back. I then made a direct recommendation for a next step and he rejected it. My suggestion was intended to be a step before counseling to see if we could work things out on our own, but he wasn't even willing to try it.


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## purplepolkadots (May 17, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Yes, I can relate to this. There is something about marriage and kids whole thing that can turn a man very beta. I got into the work, kids, sleep routine and it got very comfortable to the point where dating or intimacy just took a backseat. After awhile we both kind of did our own thing.
> 
> If you ask him, he may think things are not great, but things are not that bad either. He might be in comfort land and usually it takes a hard kick to the balls to knock you out of it.


I got tired of kicking a long time ago.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Also, just to add. I would be straight with him. Like I said sometimes it takes a jolt to really accept change. You are obviously strongly considering divorce or maybe you have your mind made up or maybe you aren't sure yet. 

But I'd be straight with him. Tell him something like you are really considering divorce because of unmet needs or unhappiness (whatever it may be). You've tried to address these issues without outside help, but it never changes. We need to either find a marriage councilor or its time to end it.

Its possible he doesn't understand the seriousness of his marriage being in jeopardy and doesn't have the tools without some outside help and a little kick in the ass.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

purplepolkadots said:


> Hm... as for the vague strategy and expecting him to read my mind, I am being rather vague on here on purpose, but here's the thing, he did finally realize the extent of the situation about 2 years ago and that realization was followed by communication where I was pretty direct. He even made a bunch of changes based on our discussion and I thought we were on the right track. I also discussed with him that although what we were doing was making life nicer, it wasn't enough. We were still lacking the right sort of connection and I told him I didn't know how to get that back. I then made a direct recommendation for a next step and he rejected it. My suggestion was intended to be a step before counseling to see if we could work things out on our own, but he wasn't even willing to try it.


I'm curious, what was he not willing to try? If you don't want to post here or send as a PM I understand. I would really give counseling a shot though and I mean this will all sincerity, unless you are already involved with someone else then no matter what he does or you do will even matter at this point.


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