# When? When do you know??



## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

My apologies in advance, this is going to be all over the place. For 2 days I've been trying to put my thoughts together and I still can't even come up with a thread title. I've decided to simply put it out here as it comes to me. 

I have previous threads for background. The core of it right now...I am detached from my marriage and from my husband. I have been trying for a few years to find my way back, to love him again, be in love with him again, desire him again. I am a horrible communicator. Horrible. I know that and have so far been unsuccessful at changing that defect in myself. H thrives on communication, verbose to the nth degree. He has scaled it back some at my request. Lately I've become even more quiet, which he has noticed, because I don't want to hurt him, hurt his feelings, give a voice to the negative things I think about him or the deep unhappiness I have in our marriage. He is sensitive. So very, very sensitive. I learned a long time ago that he can get cut to the core very easily. He has told me for years that I suck in the girlfriend department of being a wife. I acknowledge that to be true. If I were to ever say something like that to him it would be overwhelmingly painful to him. I've learned to keep my mouth shut, which is a natural tendency anyway. 

A few nights ago we argued. I put on my big girl panties and told him that I am basically sticking around because of our daughters. That took all the fight out of him. He hasn't spoken to me since. I called our counselor. I wanted to get in for IC and we definitely need more MC. She moved but offered a skype type session. We've been seeing her for years, I've gone on my own also, and I don't want to have to start all over again with someone new & spend weeks establishing all the background. There's so much. But I don't know what is turning me off the skype session. I'll give it a try though. I need help. Guidance. Guts. Clarity. 

When I ask myself if I WANT this marriage, I'm afraid of my answer. As H says, I make a great roommate & caretaker. I don't trust him anymore. I don't believe in him anymore. I have learned that he wants to take the easy road. He tanked his career 2 years ago and is on his 2nd class towards a new degree. He talks & talks & talks, but that's it. I can usually tune it out because I know what he says will not come to fruition. But lately he's talking about how overwhelmed he is with work, school (ONE class) and family and he shuts down. He skipped an important class because when he gets this way he shuts down & does nothing. That is happening more frequently and I'm still left with bills, dinner, kids' homework, baths, laundry, schedule, etc. if he stays on course it will take a good 4-6 years for his degree. Lately I'm hearing that one class is too much, he wants to go part time or not work at all in order to finish school. He calls in "sick" even though he doesn't have sick time, he's the first to volunteer to leave work if they are overstaffed. We are making less than 1/2 of what we were making 2 years ago. We can't afford these "sick" days and if I say something about it he tells me I'm more interested in the material things than him. He values family time over money in his pocket. I'm not talking about money in my pocket, I'm talking about a roof over our head and food on the table. My car needs new tires. There's no family time if there's no money. That sounds harsh so I hope you understand my meaning behind that. 

He lies. That's what got him fired from his 17+ year career. He lied to cover something stupid up. Yes, he would have been reprimanded, but the consequences would have been minimal. His lying caught up with him and he swore to me he would not do that again. I find that he's telling little lies again. I don't trust him. 

He says he loves me, is in love with me, and the girls & I are all he wants. He criticizes me everyday for something. Sometimes big, sometimes small. I'm a bad communicator, yes I acknowledge that. He says I'm a great mother, doing a great job with our girls, but then he'll say the trouble we're having with some normal kid behaviors is my fault. He jumps all over me if I set something on the kitchen counter or table. He criticizes my family, directly to them!! Yet he's not speaking to his family & hasn't for years. He has 1 friend and criticizes the time I spend with, or talking to, my girlfriends. 

I know he feels tortured by my silence. I have told him much of how I'm feeling before and he feels dumped on and takes it all so deep & personally that he turns my words into so much more. At one time I told him I was disappointed in a decision he made. It was a decision not to go to a funeral service that I felt was important. He turned that into that I am disappointed in him, as a man, husband and father. I can't tell him one simple specific thing because he turns it into a universal attack on him. 

How do you know when you're done? How do you know when to keep working and trying harder? When is enough, enough?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PinkSalmon13 (Nov 7, 2013)

The perfect resource for finding real and tangible clarity on whether you're done or not is the book TOO GOOD TO LEAVE, TOO BAD TO STAY. It will be well worth your while to find a copy ASAP.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

You don't seem to be a horrible communicator, as your writing is articulate and understandable. Is it only with your husband that this is a problem? Has he perhaps trained you to not communicate with his victim-mentality responses to your attempts to communicate with him? By the way, talking and talking and talking, as you describe him doing, isn't necessarily communication. Communication requires listening as well as speaking, and sometimes verbosity can be used to keep the other party from even having a chance to speak. 

Honestly, it sounds like he might have some sort of personality disorder, or at least strong traits of one.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I remember your other threads. I don't think any of us who posted thought he was going to be successful with his plan to go to school and work. 

To answer your question: You know when the thought of staying in the marriage scares you more than the thought of ending it.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MsStacy said:


> I need help. Guidance. Guts. Clarity.


You have been posting on here since 2008. That means six years, give or take a few months.

You have been in IC and MC. He is showing you who is he is.

With all this, you still want guidance, guts, and clarity. Nobody can give you guts. That is an inside job.

Guidance and clarity? I dunno ... sounds like you've gotten tons of advice and then some.

HE IS WHO HE IS. 

Nothing changes if nothing changes.

Guess the ball is in your court.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MsStacy said:


> How do you know when you're done? How do you know when to keep working and trying harder? When is enough, enough?


The real tragedy is, you have been asking this same question, in one form or another, for a long time.

What difference does it make when enough is enough for me or anyone else here?

I'm not in your marriage. I mean, this is beyond sad to me. You can't even stand back and take an objective look as you see it. 

I have no problem with people asking for help or support. I really don't. But there is a time when a rational adult has to pull the plug and live with the consequences of their actions.

I guess it's either that, or you keep popping up here every couple months and asking the same questions.

Your husband sounds like a loser to me and completely lacking in impulse control or maturity. But I don't live with him. You do.

So it boils down to this: sh!t or get off the pot. Really.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

MsStacy, I know Prodigal's words might seem harsh, but they are true. I also know that you are hurting and probably drained and empty. But try to step back and read her posts in an objective mindset.

You really only have control over yourself. Nothing we say will change your husband or your situation. You have been here long enough to know the drill. Re-read her posts.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

PinkSalmon13 said:


> The perfect resource for finding real and tangible clarity on whether you're done or not is the book TOO GOOD TO LEAVE, TOO BAD TO STAY. It will be well worth your while to find a copy ASAP.


Thank you. I will get that book today.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Rowan said:


> You don't seem to be a horrible communicator, as your writing is articulate and understandable. Is it only with your husband that this is a problem? Has he perhaps trained you to not communicate with his victim-mentality responses to your attempts to communicate with him? By the way, talking and talking and talking, as you describe him doing, isn't necessarily communication. Communication requires listening as well as speaking, and sometimes verbosity can be used to keep the other party from even having a chance to speak.
> 
> Honestly, it sounds like he might have some sort of personality disorder, or at least strong traits of one.


Yes, he has most definitely trained me to not communicate with him. I'm inclined to keep to myself so I can't lay it all at his feet, but talking with him has always left me feeling more detached. He interrupts and spins me in circles until I don't even know what I'm thinking or feeling anymore. It's exhausting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

To everyone else, I know I must be exhausting and frustrating to you. Openminded & Prodigal, I appreciate that you stick with me. I do need to decide. I keep myself stuck. I don't want to hurt him. I don't want to hurt our girls. I can't reconcile the man that he's showing me to be and the man I thought he was. I think that's what I have boiled it down to. 

He told me last night that I don't work in the "real world" anymore & I don't understand the stress he was under in his previous career, in his current job, or how hard he works. I try to acknowledge that he works hard but if I were to come out and say "I think you're lazy. The whole world works and has stress. They don't come home and consistently check out 2-3 days a week because they need 'mental health' time. Everyone has stress. People work and go to school and have families but they don't stop working or go part time when they can't afford it. They don't cash in their retirement accounts like it's no big deal. If this one class is so overwhelming and you're so overworked now, how are you ever going to do nursing school?" I don't know how to say these things to him because the slightest disappointment or criticism of him turns into such a huge, universal attack against him. I told him the other night I had planned to go to the gym but after seeing he had drank a whole bottle of sake in a short amount of time I chose not to leave the girls. He turned that into me attacking him as a father and how horrible he is. It couldn't be just one instance of something. 

I need to do something. We're both miserable. I don't know why it paralyzes me, the thought of hurting him & leaving him alone. I understand my reluctance to break the family up and how that would affect our daughters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

JustHer said:


> MsStacy, I know Prodigal's words might seem harsh, but they are true. I also know that you are hurting and probably drained and empty. But try to step back and read her posts in an objective mindset.
> 
> You really only have control over yourself. Nothing we say will change your husband or your situation. You have been here long enough to know the drill. Re-read her posts.


I don't take her words harshly. She's right and I don't find her to be disrespectful. I'm hard headed and it often takes unfiltered words to get thru to me. 

I need to go back and reread hers (and others) responses in my previous threads also. 

I don't understand why I allow myself to be so paralyzed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Children know when things are wrong. Yours would be happier if they thought you were happy. My son was 42 when I finally divorced his father and he told me he wished I had done it 30 years ago because he couldn't be happy when I wasn't happy. That was tough to hear because I stayed for him. Don't make my mistake. Your husband will never change.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

One thing that works on me...our girls are adopted. Both from birth. Their birth mothers chose us and I communicate regularly with them. I realize this is not a perfect world, but how do I tell these women I'm breaking up our family. They chose us so our daughters could have a 2 parent home & family. 

Not huge on my list of paralyzing reasons, but a factor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Openminded, I think about that. We do great as a family unit. We have fun when we're all together. It's the marriage part that doesn't work for me. My girls are still young, I realize they will pick up on my unhappiness as they get older. Ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Younger is better when it comes to divorce. Fewer memories of their parents together. 

I just don't think your husband is ever going to get his life together. He will expect you to baby him, and buy his excuses, for as long as he can manage.


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## PinkSalmon13 (Nov 7, 2013)

Prodigal said:


> The real tragedy is, you have been asking this same question, in one form or another, for a long time.
> 
> What difference does it make when enough is enough for me or anyone else here?
> 
> ...


This post should be dipped in gold an put up on the mantle. I got so much from this, and I hope the OP does as well. Gold.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MsStacy said:


> He told me last night that I don't work in the "real world" anymore


But you DO know the real world. Don't let his perspective on what he thinks you know and feel color reality as you perceive it. In other words, you have to take his opinions for what they are - his opinions.



MsStacy said:


> "I think you're lazy. The whole world works and has stress. They don't come home and consistently check out 2-3 days a week because they need 'mental health' time. Everyone has stress. People work and go to school and have families but they don't stop working or go part time when they can't afford it. They don't cash in their retirement accounts like it's no big deal. If this one class is so overwhelming and you're so overworked now, how are you ever going to do nursing school?" I don't know how to say these things to him because the slightest disappointment or criticism of him turns into such a huge, universal attack against him.


Your assessment of what you want to say to him is true. What isn't true? You are trying to make him responsible for you not speaking the truth to him, as you see it. So what if he dissolves into a puddle of jello? I'll tell you what keeps you from speaking the truth: FEAR. Fear of being alone. Fear of no longer being the enabler. Fear of no longer playing the role of victim.

Fear.



MsStacy7783642 said:


> I don't know why it paralyzes me, the thought of hurting him & leaving him alone. I understand my reluctance to break the family up and how that would affect our daughters.


You have one life. It is yours. He has one life. It is his. Will you hurt him? Probably. Has he hurt you? Probably. Nobody goes out of this life without hurt. But you are NOT responsible for his feelings.

You are cheating your kids out of a decent childhood, because they won't have examples of what a healthy relationship should be.

Stacy, this is about you. Your life. Your reality. Your choices.

No, I don't advocate sh!tting on our partners. You are choosing to remain stuck. And you are making excuses by trying to foist the responsibility on yourself for hurting other people.

I truly believe you are stuck in this victim/martyr role. And I don't know who the heck your counselors are, but they sound bogus to me. If you've stayed in this unfulfilling relationship for so long and they haven't strongly suggested you leave, then the burden is on you to make a change.

I will tell you this with complete confidence: If you stay in this present situation, you will be 60 or 70 someday soon and regret you remained stuck.

You deserve a life. What you have is not a life.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Prodigal said:


> Your assessment of what you want to say to him is true. What isn't true? You are trying to make him responsible for you not speaking the truth to him, as you see it. So what if he dissolves into a puddle of jello? I'll tell you what keeps you from speaking the truth: FEAR. Fear of being alone. Fear of no longer being the enabler. Fear of no longer playing the role of victim.


You're right. I don't give him the benefit of what I'm thinking or feeling. I've learned over the last 16 years that any criticism of him wounds him so deeply that I have completely stopped. As long as I am not cruel then his wounds are not my problem to deal with, right? I should be able to call him out on his BS. 

Fear is probably correct. Fear of what is what I can't figure out yet. Your words all ring very true except for the fear of being alone. Actually, saying this out loud (kinda)...maybe my fear is that I am BETTER alone. I have never had the 'I need you, I couldn't live without you' feeling for anyone. H touched on this the other night. He said he knows he has always needed me more than I need him, loved me more than I loved him. Maybe that's it. Maybe I know that I'm just fine on my own and maybe I prefer it that way. Maybe that's my fear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Prodigal said:


> I truly believe you are stuck in this victim/martyr role.


This rings true and I hate that more than anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He only is a problem if you allow it. Stop worrying about him and start fixing yourself.


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