# Invitation to initiate



## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

So ... after the now customary weekend intimacy, my wife props herself up in the attitude of wanting to have a Talk(tm)
She says "don't be worried or defensive" - making me instantly worried and defensive, naturally. 
She then explains how it distresses her that I no longer ever attempt to initiate intimacy. She acknowledges that she has some responsibility for this, as the frequent rejections have caused me to always wait for her to initiate. 
However this apparently makes her feel undesired, and she doesn't like it.
(She also recognised the asymmetry, in that she can have sey whenever she wants as I'm always available for her, but the reverse is not true.)

This suggestion, that I initiate, comes with risk for me (rejection) but none for her.

Nevertheless, last night, I give a slight, tentative, indication that I might be up for some intimate contact - and she very firmly says that it's time to go to sleep (in fairness, I did neey to get up stupidly early, so sleep was the sensible option - but I don't always want to be sensible - sometimes I want sex even if it's not sensible.) So I lay there awake for ages instead, feeling unsatisfied and rejected. Again.

So... what to do? I'm really not feeling inclined to try initiating again any time soon.

(And yes, I'm clean and sweet smelling, fit and healthy, with regular romantic gestures and frequent affectionate demonstrations. And I earn well, and do things round the house - before anyone asks.)


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Seems fairly simple, ask her what she is willing to commit to. If she is not willing to commit to actually responding some percentage of the time then her complaint is BS.

Something else that might work is she is free to reject at will but must off a rain check within 2 days, or whatever she feels is fair. "It's not the weekend" is unacceptable


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Dont be tentative,it’s not attractive.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I agree with Andy. Pulling her hair and spanking her ass is a lot more attractive than being shy about getting permission.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Rags said:


> This suggestion, that I initiate, comes with risk for me (rejection) but none for her.
> 
> Nevertheless, last night, I give a slight, tentative, indication that I might be up for some intimate contact - and she very firmly says that it's time to go to sleep (in fairness, I did neey to get up stupidly early, so sleep was the sensible option - but I don't always want to be sensible - sometimes I want sex even if it's not sensible.) So I lay there awake for ages instead, feeling unsatisfied and rejected. Again.
> 
> So... what to do? I'm really not feeling inclined to try initiating again any time soon.


I would take her out to a nice dinner and share what you've shared here. 

I'd be kind, but very honest. 

In my world, masculinity is synonymous with responsibility. You are a leader and a decision-maker. You have opinions and preferences. 

State them.

I don't know your history or how long you've been married, but your wife married you. She agreed to marriage. So, whether she likes it or not, she's committed herself to a monogamous, sexual relationship. (I'm gonna assume that part. )

She's not a single person anymore. Intimacy and vulnerability are now an obligation. Silence is not okay. Withholding is not okay. Pushing you away, rejecting you, her having all the power - it's not acceptable. 

She needs to be present in your marriage, and she need to be willing to figure out a solution that suits both of you.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rags said:


> So ... after the now customary weekend intimacy, my wife props herself up in the attitude of wanting to have a Talk(tm)
> She says "don't be worried or defensive" - making me instantly worried and defensive, naturally.
> She then explains how it distresses her that I no longer ever attempt to initiate intimacy. She acknowledges that she has some responsibility for this, as the frequent rejections have caused me to always wait for her to initiate.
> However this apparently makes her feel undesired, and she doesn't like it.
> ...


Yeah I know that one...

Basically, she wants you to want her, but only when she wants it, which involves some mind reading on your part.

You have to either develop a thick skin every time you attempt or make it clear how much rejections hurt you. I don't think women know this and men hardly admit how much it hurts to their partner (also don't expect them to read your mind with that). Also be aware that when you get older, it gets more 'tedious' to initiate and men naturally become more passive with age when it comes to initiations. When you are young (or you just met) your desire is fuelled by hormones and there's just much more urgency to initiate (and accept). You need to also be aware of it. 

But that's the common dance of long-time married people: the desire for frequency is never 100% the same. You can work it out by talking openly about it. My wife knows I start going cranky after about two days and normally, either of us will initiate (or if the painters are in, she will do other stuff). I don't know what her true frequency is; I get sometimes insecure because I wonder if she is doing it just for me. But then there is also the possibility that her drive is just more 'reactionary' (so it will get ignited if I go after her). So it's the constant chicken and egg thing. Maybe don't overthink it (note to myself...).

And yeah, women love aggressive initiation (majority seem to). But don't go all "I kissed my sweetie with my fist" (Family Guy reference) on her...That's not cool.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Do not initiate tentatively. Initiate from the perspective of "darn, you look hot, and you being so near and so hot makes me hot. I am hot for you. Here, I will show you how hot for you I am."

If she rejects you, say "fine, you are not obliged to have sex with me, but you got me hot, so now I am going to jerk off." And then do so. Right there in bed next to her.

If she complains that you are jerking off in bed, tell her that it is her fault for turning you on so much.

If she tells you that she does not like it when you jerk off right next to her, tell her you don't like it when she lies there so enticing right next to you and rejects you for sex. Do not apologize for being horny when she is in bed with you. Do not apologize for needing to jerk off when you are horny and are denied sex.

Eventually you will either have lots more sex that she will enjoy more because you initiated. Or she will tell you to stop initiating. Either way, you will be following her most recent set of instructions.


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## Where there's a will (Feb 10, 2014)

Simple line...." last night....how do you think that makes me feel? Leave her to figure it out. Get on with life. By the time this has happensd a few times she will be fully aware that she is gradually throwing her marriagd away. No wingeing, point made, clear indication of what she is doing.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Bananapeel said:


> I agree with Andy. Pulling her hair and spanking her ass is a lot more attractive than being shy about getting permission.


My W on more then one occasion has said, "Just take it!"


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

During my first marriage (of 30 years) the best I ever had it was when she agreed to once during the week and once during the weekend, with an occassional twice weekend. That worked well, because I knew that if I initiated and was turned down (happened frequently) on a Monday, I knew that Tue or Wed I was probably golden, and that worked to keep the tension down. Maybe she agrees never to say no twice? I would sure bring it up to her, just to continue her conversation.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Yeah I know that one...
> 
> Basically, she wants you to want her, but only when she wants it, which involves some mind reading on your part.
> 
> ...


With the Painters? 😉😉😉 (humor)


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

OP,

All of my responses are covered in the above mult posts.

It's good she's bringing it up now, rather than later. The best answer is just be honest. Include you won't take no for an answer if she wants you to be in charge of the frequency. 

Key here is don't be shy. Get everything you want out at this opportune time.


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## StuckInLove (Jun 6, 2017)

Yeswecan said:


> My W on more then one occasion has said, "Just take it!"


This. 

Not to assume all marriages/wives are the same, but from what I have read/experienced, women appreciate an assertive, dominant husband. My W has also said on many occasions to "just take what is yours". To a fault actually, she sometimes will play games and do the "hard to get" thing where she acts somewhat disinterested, but is secretly hoping that I just pin her down and take what's mine. OK, fair enough, that can be hot sometimes, but what some women need to understand is that if this is ALWAYS the way things go, we as men can start to feel unattractive, undesired, selfish, and basically like domesticated rapists, to be quite blunt. Reciprocation is essential, and if our wives are constantly pretending to be uninterested, hoping we "just take what we want", it starts to feel very one-sided and that is no fun. What's fun and a turn-on is turning to you wife, feeling her body and curves, kissing on her and having her visibly become aroused, making noises, kissing back (passionately), and such. As I put it, I don't particularly enjoy making love to a dead body, so the whole 'pretending to be uninterested so your man asserts his dominance' doesn't really work for me. Don't get me wrong, there are times where I most certainly am going to 'take what is mine', but not every time.

I do agree, though, that 'asking permission' is a huge turn off for women.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

She invites you to initiate (no that's not right) She instructs, begs, demands, that you initiate.
You initiate as per her serious instruction.
She says "It's time to go to sleep."

My reply: "That's One!"

She lied to you inorder to get her ego cookie. Abusive manipulation.

What to do? Tell her you are worried and defensive now. It's her move.


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

Rags said:


> Nevertheless, last night, I give a slight, tentative, indication that I might be up for some intimate contact


Equals weak and needy. I get it - you're dipping your toes in to make sure it's not too cold. F that - dive in to the deep end. Seems to me like she is testing your desire and by going in with a half assed attempt you are validating her feeling that you don't really desire her that much. It's been said already, but it's worth reiterating because it's true - asking for permission is an outright passion killer. Not attractive at all.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

StuckInLove said:


> This.
> 
> Not to assume all marriages/wives are the same, but from what I have read/experienced, women appreciate an assertive, dominant husband. My W has also said on many occasions to "just take what is yours". To a fault actually, she sometimes will play games and do the "hard to get" thing where she acts somewhat disinterested, but is secretly hoping that I just pin her down and take what's mine. OK, fair enough, that can be hot sometimes, but what some women need to understand is that if this is ALWAYS the way things go, we as men can start to feel unattractive, undesired, selfish, and basically like domesticated rapists, to be quite blunt. Reciprocation is essential, and if our wives are constantly pretending to be uninterested, hoping we "just take what we want", it starts to feel very one-sided and that is no fun. What's fun and a turn-on is turning to you wife, feeling her body and curves, kissing on her and having her visibly become aroused, making noises, kissing back (passionately), and such. As I put it, I don't particularly enjoy making love to a dead body, so the whole 'pretending to be uninterested so your man asserts his dominance' doesn't really work for me. Don't get me wrong, there are times where I most certainly am going to 'take what is mine', but not every time.
> 
> I do agree, though, that 'asking permission' is a huge turn off for women.


Yeah, I'm not that big a fan of being a "domesticated rapist" either.

And, you must be wrong about 'asking permission being a turn off for women'. 

All I hear is about is how sexy women find affirmative consent.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Rags said:


> Nevertheless, last night, I give a slight, tentative, indication that I might be up for some intimate contact - and she very firmly says that it's time to go to sleep (in fairness, I did neey to get up stupidly early, so sleep was the sensible option - but I don't always want to be sensible - sometimes I want sex even if it's not sensible.) So I lay there awake for ages instead, feeling unsatisfied and rejected. Again.
> 
> So... what to do? I'm really not feeling inclined to try initiating again any time soon.
> 
> (And yes, I'm clean and sweet smelling, fit and healthy, with regular romantic gestures and frequent affectionate demonstrations. And I earn well, and do things round the house - before anyone asks.)


First - "it's time to go to sleep" is nonsense because you are a grown man and you know when you need to get up and obviously you were okay with that. She's your wife, not your mother! Plus, let's be honest here, how long does it REALLY take to have sex? I doubt as long as you laid awake feeling rejected...

You say you give frequent affectionate demonstrations. But are you being affectionate/intimate right before initiating sex? For example, do you both get in bed and you initiate and she rejects? Or are you in bed cuddling and whispering and giggling together and then you start rubbing her thigh or back and then kissing her and then initiate and she rejects? 

The reason I ask is because, speaking as a woman, I have found it very jarring and unwelcome in the moment when my ex would initiate seemingly out of the blue. My immediate reaction would be "not now" but 60 seconds later after I had a moment to shift my focus I would think -- why not now?! I remember talking with a female friend and she was saying, with this confused/annoyed look on her face, that her husband would out of the blue want sex suddenly and she'd be like ...NOW?! RIGHT NOW?

I really like the "rain check" idea posted above. And I recommend you warm her up a little immediately before propositioning if you are not already.

ALSO - no more TENTATIVE propositioning. She's hurt because she doesn't feel like you are truly turned on by her anymore (even if it is her fault) a "tentative" proposition does NOT say "Me Man. You hot sexy woman." It says "Me insecure willy nilly man who hopes he can get laid by the only available female but is kind of afraid to say so..."


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Where there's a will said:


> Simple line...." last night....how do you think that makes me feel? Leave her to figure it out. Get on with life. By the time this has happensd a few times she will be fully aware that she is gradually throwing her marriagd away. No wingeing, point made, clear indication of what she is doing.


That's an interesting point. Though as a woman I would say "how do you think that makes me feel" is not very manly... It definitely wouldn't make me question my not wanting sex. It might make me feel obligated, but not actually turned on. However, I like the idea of something that communicates this to her:

"You want me to find you sexy and desirable. When you never/seldom want sex when I do, I find you less and less sexy and more and more in roommate status."

But I can't think of a good way to word it...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> She invites you to initiate (no that's not right) She instructs, begs, demands, that you initiate.
> You initiate as per her serious instruction.
> She says "It's time to go to sleep."
> 
> ...


Ah, the old mule joke. My husband and I used that one regularly. Always with a smile and a chuckle.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> That's an interesting point. Though as a woman I would say "how do you think that makes me feel" is not very manly... It definitely wouldn't make me question my not wanting sex. It might make me feel obligated, but not actually turned on. However, I like the idea of something that communicates this to her:
> 
> "You want me to find you sexy and desirable. When you never/seldom want sex when I do, I find you less and less sexy and more and more in roommate status."
> 
> But I can't think of a good way to word it...


Exactly!

Big difference in the two approaches.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Stop initiating sex. Stop doing nice things for her. The next time she asks you for something, tell her you are too tired, or you just don't feel like it.

When she complains, simply say:

"This is what rejection feels like. I hope you are able to deal with it as gracefully as you expect me to."

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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I would like to further add that anyone who tells you they need you to initiate to feel sexy, while rejecting you 80+% of the time, is very self centered. The moment she feels you may be slipping away, she will flip her script and love bomb you.

Unfortunately, she may not be mature enough to do so without feeling like she is losing you, which makes for a ****ty dynamic. Or worse, she has some underlying PD.

I would have no interest in brinkmanship in order to have a fulfilling sex life with my supposed life partner. 

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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Stop initiating sex. Stop doing nice things for her. The next time she asks you for something, tell her you are too tired, or you just don't feel like it.
> 
> When she complains, simply say:
> 
> ...


I agree with this approach in response to a situation that's been going on for a long time.

But I don't think one should go there too soon.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

How about:

"You don't get to feel good about your place in my life, at my expense, without giving back. Your behavior is threatening the existence of our marriage."

Simple and to the point She'll know the problem, the solution, and the consequences of a failure to improve.



WorkingWife said:


> That's an interesting point. Though as a woman I would say "how do you think that makes me feel" is not very manly... It definitely wouldn't make me question my not wanting sex. It might make me feel obligated, but not actually turned on. However, I like the idea of something that communicates this to her:
> 
> "You want me to find you sexy and desirable. When you never/seldom want sex when I do, I find you less and less sexy and more and more in roommate status."
> 
> But I can't think of a good way to word it...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> I would like to further add that anyone who tells you they need you to initiate to feel sexy, while rejecting you 80+% of the time, is very self centered. The moment she feels you may be slipping away, she will flip her script and love bomb you.
> 
> Unfortunately, she may not be mature enough to do so without feeling like she is losing you, which makes for a ****ty dynamic. Or worse, she has some underlying PD.
> 
> ...




You are looking at it too much from your perspective (a man’s perspective, for which I have all the sympathy because I have been there).

But you have to understand that most of the fun for the woman, is to be chased after and desired (often aggressively so). Part of the game (or the risk for the person doing the chasing), is rejection. However if rejection happens all the time, your view point is 100% valid. But if it’s just a game, I think as a man, you just have to learn to take it on the chin sometimes, and try not to sulk too much about it.

This is what happened the other night: 

Me: “You wanna try orgasmic meditation?”

Wife, already lying comfortably in bed, reading, looks at me with a mixture of, what I could best describe as thorough confusion and the intense desire to hit my head with a sharp object.

She: “what?”

Me: “I looked it up. It looks like something you’d really like. ‘Cos it’s supposed to be completely relaxing, with no pressure. Also it’s promoted as a Buddhist thing, however it actually is recommended by all the feminists, because the man is just serving the woman’s body entirely and nobody gives a **** whether it feels good for the man. So I thought you’d like it, to change it up slightly.” (The other day, she told me I mostly do things ‘my way’. And I wasn’t sure it was a compliment).

Her: “ why the hell do you think i feel ‘pressure’? Why do you always come up with this sh1t; I already told you I don’t think there’s anything wrong with our sex life yet you keep coming up with these new things as if I don’t enjoy what you are already doing to me. Maybe you are the one who feels the ‘pressure’ and is unhappy with the sex life?

So this goes on for a while. Meanwhile, I begin to regret the day my mother pushed me out of her vajayjay. So I say, don’t worry about it and go to sleep in another bedroom because it looked like she needed the space and time to herself.

10 minutes later, she comes in and says: 
“You are not supposed to ask me, you are supposed to just do it. What is wrong with you?”

Me: **** me.

Anyway. Moral of the story: it’s more emasculating when a woman has to tell you how to approach sex with her, rather than reject you.
Rejection is normal. Being taught a lesson and femsplained how to **** her, is a whole other thing.

Anyway, this orgasmic meditation turned out to be a massive disappointment. She started twitching (not in a good way) and getting impatient after about 2 minutes in and said that she had a better time at her dentist’s earlier that day (you are supposed to tell each other how you feel during this..’procedure’...). So I switched and ‘improved’ it by building it up to an orgasm with what I normally do, while choking her (gently).

Hopefully she won’t need to go to her dentist for a while now...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

You know, I agree with some of the advice that is being given. 

Now, since she had the talk with you about your initiating sex, I think that is an opening. 

It is an opening talk more about it and discuss her rejection on the night that you had to get up early. That is complete and total BS, and your response should have been, "I am a grown ASS man, so I will worry about my sleep". 

So I think that you need to have an open, honest conversation about her rejecting you in general. 

Now, having said that, you need to quit being a butt hurt puss, wrong attitude, wrong concept of sexuality, wrong move. 

Now, of course any person has the right to say no about anything to do with their bodies or anything else for that matter, no argument there. 

But everyone has to right to not stay with a person that is not sexually compatible with that person, this is key. 

Now, for you, esp since she open to door about initiation. The next conversation needs to go like this. 

"I understand that you need to be desired and feel desired and I get that. However, you also have a responsibility to make me feel desired and appreciated just like you want me to do for you."

This is something that women do not understand, I don't know why, but to me it should obvious. 

Now you can have that conversation with her and you need to follow through. 

Women, in general, need to feel beautiful, they need to feel desired and that my friend is your responsibility. 

Sometimes when they say no, it is a test to see if you are going to push it, I am not suggesting marital rape or anything like that, but they sometimes do not want you to take no for answer. 

The thing is that, you have to follow through by banging her brains out and completely and totally pleasing her when you do have sex, so make sure that you are doing that. 

Let me give you two recent stories with my GF, and I have been in long term marriages and relationship and it always works like this for me. So, don't do the "Oh she is just his GF", because women are women. 

Couple of weekends ago, not sure when, this happened. We had a great night of sex, long session, just really great sex in general. That morning before we got out to do stuff, we went at it again. It was the usually greatness. So we have a busy day, shopping, eating, I went and set in with some friends, few drinks, yada, yada. 

So we get home and start getting ready for bed and I said something sexy or whatnot. And she says, "We can't do that, we both have to get up in the morning." 

And I looked at her and said, "Sugar, you need to stop talking and get undressed". So we are going at it, and she said, "Don't ever let me try to tell you no again." 

To which my response was, "I never considered it in the first place". To which she smiled and continued having orgasms. So that happened. 

Next and one of the best ones recently, was when we were supposed to be apart. I had stuff to do at mine and she had a long day at work. So I'm chilling, and she calls, face time, and basically lets me know that I needed to come over, NOW. So I happily pack up and head to her house. 

I got to tell you she pulled out all the stops. She fixed her hair beautifully, full makeup, and the outfit, OMG. Just stunning. That was a wonderful night. 

Those are just to examples, of me not taking no for an answer, and her initiating. 

Now having said all of that, I really think you and your W could have an open honest conversation, and work through this. I think you both need to change for the better, and honestly, you could have a great sex life, and a great marriage. 

But you both need to make adjustments...


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

A few years ago I went with an on/off girlfriend to a location wedding in London,it was her brother in laws wedding.She insisted on separate rooms for appearance sake.The day of the wedding we were really getting along great,she was all over me and I was reciprocating.When we left the bar that night to go to her room she wouldn’t let me come in.I just accepted her decision and walked away.
I left the hotel and went to a nightclub in the west end that I used to frequent when I lived there.I left the nightclub with another woman and stayed in her place that night.
The following day it was around noon when I got back to the hotel and she was waiting in the hotel lobby.She was really pissed but I wasn’t going to listen to her crap.
I told her she shouldn’t start something she wasn’t prepared to finish and that I would have no problem going on without her.She was protesting that her family were in the hotel but I wasn’t interested.
She thought she was something special but she picked the wrong guy to prick tease.
I like to think that the older me would have been a bit more diplomatic but who knows.....


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions - there are too many to answer each individually, but please accept that I appreciate everyone's input.

I don't want people to get the wrong impression - when it happens, sex is good (for both of us, I'm pretty certain) - and it happens at least once, usually more than once, per week (mostly on weekends.)

We've been married a couple of decades, and we're not in any general relationship trouble. Nothing along these lines (or any other that I'm aware of) is threatening our marriage.

I'm just struggling to understand what it is she actually wants (no surprise there, I realise, its par for the course) - and it seems to me to be quite inconsistent. Which doesn't make it unlikely.

I don't think she needs any further validation that I find her attractive - one of the things she tells me regularly is how much she appreciates me making her feel attractive. And I do try to - we have three children, and that does take it's toll on how a woman sees her body, sometimes, I understand (I think it adds a certain something in some ways - I mean, she's borne three children for me - that makes her quite sexy, to me.)

I'm not about to start rejecting her when she initiates - I don't think playing games is a good idea. I'm just not sure how to proceed - I do want her to feel good about things. Just not sure how to go about it, and her recent comments haven't made things any clearer.

I do take the point about noting that my choosing how much sleep I need is within my purview. 


WorkingWife said:


> First - "it's time to go to sleep" is nonsense because you are a grown man and you know when you need to get up and obviously you were okay with that.





WorkingWife said:


> I have found it very jarring and unwelcome in the moment when my ex would initiate seemingly out of the blue.


Well, it's not out of the blue to me. It's possible she's not picked up on all the touches and suchlike that seem obvious to me (but I'm tactile, and she's verbal, so we mis-communicate at times.)


And perhaps she would like me to be more assertive sometimes (I'm pretty laid back, as a rule) but I really don't want her to feel pressured into sex when she really doesn't want it - early in our marriage she did, occasionally (there might have been borderline emotional blackmail - it was a long time ago, so I'm not sure) and I want to avoid that. But no more tentative. Got it.

It just seems like a ridiculously thin line between too passive, and too pushy (sometimes I think those points cross, and there is no actual right answer.)

Will have a chat with her this evening, and explain the situation.

Thanks for the advice.

Rags


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

@Rags How often do you flirt with your wife? You said she is more verbal. Do you ever try seducing her anymore? Most women are responsive desire, and so you need to prime the pump and build anticipation so that she is wanting it, and then you take her. Be dominant with her, don't tentatively ask if you can have sex tonight.

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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Rags said:


> I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions - there are too many to answer each individually, but please accept that I appreciate everyone's input.
> 
> I don't want people to get the wrong impression - when it happens, sex is good (for both of us, I'm pretty certain) - and it happens at least once, usually more than once, per week (mostly on weekends.)
> 
> ...


Let us know what you learn. It could be as simple as she thinks she'd like you to initiate more, but then when you do, she's tired and thinks "later would be better..." I remember when I was younger lying in bed beside my boyfriend and saying "Should I be concerned that I'd rather lay here and fantasize about having sex with you than actually do it?" He laughed and said something like "Same here. Goodnight."

I think once a week is pretty decent.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I was kind of worried about the tentative thing. . . . but this guy @Rags is so rejected that he just stopped initiating. And I totally understand that because I don't initiate either. We are flipped from him My wife is tactile and I'm the verbal. Anyway for years initiation started with massage. Worked very well for her, . . . . . until the day it didn't. I was in the mood. I started working over her shoulders neck hair back . . . . then she ruined the whole sexual dynamic of our relationship forever with one comment. "Thank you dear that was very nice, I'm going to sleep now". 

From that day massage is no longer in the foreplay book. Sure there is massage. But there is no sexual interest in my brain when I'm doing it. It's like folding laundry or cleaning the toilet. Just another DUTY. Honestly this was the beginning of the end.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

That fact that you guys are talking about it means your on the right path already. Openly read a few books on the matter and leave them laying around the house. She will know you are serious.
Ask her to read one herself "Sex and Marriage" by Rochel Fox. You read it first then give it to her. Demonstrating your interest in the topic can be enough motivation in itself. I was in your shoes
once. Now we are at the point that I NEVER ask for sex. I initiate when I want and I get it. She initiates when she wants and she gets it. If one of us is not wanting the "full treatment" we offer
the other an alternate like oral. Getting to the point of understanding that fulfilling each others needs is the key. It's a 2 step forward and one step back process. Keep working on it. Don't give
up and try to never be resentful.....just keep going. Stay the course...work on it....together!

Helpful things: Start showering or bathing together every night, take her on dates, talk about the general topic of sex in an Nonjudgmental way about yourselves and others, remove social opinions
about sex from your conversations and be more open/accepting of it, commit that sometimes divorce happens because one partner wasn't having there emotional needs met, never say ****, *****,
easy, sleep around or any negative connotation of women that enjoy sex. 

Best of Luck,

Mr.Married


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

How often do I flirt? (Well, we flirt) - every day, usually many times.

Last night we had chat, and I noted that my tentative attempt had been declined ... turns out it was so tentative she didn't realise it was one. 😕

So I was much more definite. It was after midnight and she suggested that perhaps it would therefore be better not to make too much of it..... and then I said I didn't care about that and we were going to have some fun, and she needed to get ready. And this seemed to please her, and fun was had.

So ... I think it comes down to a communications issue (as do so many things.)

I need to talk to her (not just touch, and assume she understands) and make my wants clear.

Doubtless it will take somw practice, but I think I see a way forward.

Thanks, all.

Rags


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Rags said:


> Last night we had chat, and I noted that my tentative attempt had been declined ... turns out it was so tentative she didn't realise it was one. 😕


*Bull.*

She knew *exactly* where you were headed that night or she wouldn't have felt compelled to very firmly _*tell*_ you, "it's time to go to sleep now."

Liar, liar pants on fire.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> *Bull.*
> 
> She knew *exactly* where you were headed that night or she wouldn't have felt compelled to very firmly _*tell*_ you, "it's time to go to sleep now."
> 
> Liar, liar pants on fire.


If she has a regular bedtime each night, I would.recommend initiating at least an hour before she plans on going to bed.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

If her pants were on fire she would have been looking for that initiation she ordered. 
He is the keeper of the flame (fire down below). a job I've turned down.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Rags said:
> 
> 
> > Last night we had chat, and I noted that my tentative attempt had been declined ... turns out it was so tentative she didn't realise it was one. 😕
> ...


Yep. She knew. Shes manipulating and gaslighting.


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

It's possible. Although, from what I know of her (and I think I know her as well as anyone) I doubt it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rags said:


> It's possible. Although, from what I know of her (and I think I know her as well as anyone) I doubt it.


This is common thinking. I used to think it too.

What I discovered was that when I recounted my ex's behavior to people OUTSIDE the world I had created in my marriage.....they were all unanimous in their assessments. They actually saw him MORE clearly because they had not crafted an in-marriage scenario to make it tolerable the way I had.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

@Rags - the reason you are confused is because you are making your interpretation on her words and not her actions. Look at what she does (not says) and that is what her true feels are. Those of us that are better with women have just learned how to properly read them and respond to what they really want rather than what they say they want (this applies to just about everything from sex to addressing arguments). The other thing is that we are able to enforce boundaries by saying "no" when we are being offered a bad deal. It's really that simple. This holds true whether you are newly dating of have been together for 65 years.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Bananapeel said:


> @Rags - the reason you are confused is because you are making your interpretation on her words and not her actions. Look at what she does (not says) and that is what her true feels are. Those of us that are better with women have just learned how to properly read them and respond to what they really want rather than what they say they want (this applies to just about everything from sex to addressing arguments). The other thing is that we are able to enforce boundaries by saying "no" when we are being offered a bad deal. It's really that simple. This holds true whether you are newly dating of have been together for 65 years.


I agree with some of this, but I think there is more to it. 

I am ALWAYS flirting and affectionate with my GF, but that is because I am sexual and affectionate. 

But the other thing that I have done with all the women that I have been with, is explain early on that I am a high sex guy, so if you want to be with me, you have to be a high sex girl. 

Seems to work out more when you lay the ground rules from the start. 

But I find it interesting that OP, did not take no for an answer and he got laid, but I am not sure that he understands why, which is the majority of his problem...


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

StuckInLove said:


> This.
> 
> Not to assume all marriages/wives are the same, but from what I have read/experienced, women appreciate an assertive, dominant husband. My W has also said on many occasions to "just take what is yours". To a fault actually, she sometimes will play games and do the "hard to get" thing where she acts somewhat disinterested, but is secretly hoping that I just pin her down and take what's mine. OK, fair enough, that can be hot sometimes, but what some women need to understand is that if this is ALWAYS the way things go, we as men can start to feel unattractive, undesired, selfish, and basically like domesticated rapists, to be quite blunt. Reciprocation is essential, and if our wives are constantly pretending to be uninterested, hoping we "just take what we want", it starts to feel very one-sided and that is no fun. What's fun and a turn-on is turning to you wife, feeling her body and curves, kissing on her and having her visibly become aroused, making noises, kissing back (passionately), and such. As I put it, I don't particularly enjoy making love to a dead body, so the whole 'pretending to be uninterested so your man asserts his dominance' doesn't really work for me. Don't get me wrong, there are times where I most certainly am going to 'take what is mine', but not every time.
> 
> I do agree, though, that 'asking permission' is a huge turn off for women.


I do not always just take what is mine. It is more often mutual with build up throughout the day via text, etc. In reciprocation, after that time of the month, my W gets extremely horny. She will "just take it" from me. At other times my W will initiate aggressively.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

OP,

Even if you don't have a clear explanation in your mind about why "just take it" works - accept that it works. 

Talk, then stop talking about it all the time. Sometimes we have to accept what we see happening. It works.

She may be telling you in (her mind, acceptable way to her) that if you are indeed more forceful she likes it more.

That way she "doesn't have to really tell you she likes it forcefully". 

Just roll with it. Good job.


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## StuckInLove (Jun 6, 2017)

Yeswecan said:


> I do not always just take what is mine. It is more often mutual with build up throughout the day via text, etc. In reciprocation, after that time of the month, my W gets extremely horny. She will "just take it" from me. At other times my W will initiate aggressively.


My W and I have been going through a sexual transition together lately, and I'm learning how much she enjoys being the sub, much more than I realized. She has always been submissive, and has expressed how much she likes being "manhandled". However, as of late, we're both re-exploring ourselves and each other sexually, and I'm coming to the conclusion that she downright likes to be forced, held down, told what to do, etc.. For example, for our entire relationship, she's always had trouble bringing herself to swallow for me. Although she has been very adamant that she wants to, she always overthinks it and aborts last second. It wasn't until one day, after reading another thread on this forum about how some women enjoy "surprises" and not being asked for permission, we had some great sex (starting with me giving her several orgasms via oral and PIV), and when my big moment was about to arrive, I pulled out and told her to "open up". Guess what she did, and what she now says she craves.  After it was all over, she went on and on about how much she enjoyed that, and has flat out asked me to do it again.

It's such a tightrope walk, though. I love and respect this woman so much, and never want her to feel uncomfortable, and never want to truly disrespect her, but at the same time, she enjoys a certain level of it when it comes to sex. She likes being talked down to, called names, spanked, choked, pinned down, etc.. She has even asked me to slap her in the face, which I'm yet to bring myself to do, but if she really wants that, I'll humor her..


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## Steelman (Mar 5, 2018)

Rags said:


> So ... after the now customary weekend intimacy, my wife props herself up in the attitude of wanting to have a Talk(tm)
> She says "don't be worried or defensive" - making me instantly worried and defensive, naturally.
> She then explains how it distresses her that I no longer ever attempt to initiate intimacy. She acknowledges that she has some responsibility for this, as the frequent rejections have caused me to always wait for her to initiate.
> However this apparently makes her feel undesired, and she doesn't like it.
> ...


That's a woman for you. "I want you to initiate so I don't feel bad about myself, but I will probably turn you down 9 times out of ten". Awesome!


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"That's a woman for you. "I want you to initiate so I don't feel bad about myself, but I will probably turn you down 9 times out of ten". Awesome!"

Women like this shouldnt be married.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Accepts “some” responsibility? Who bears the rest of it... you? Because you can’t read her mind?

Lucy to Charlie Brown: “Charlie Brown, I’m depressed that I always have to ask you to play football.”

Two minutes later...










Advice-wise some folks go with the 24-hour rule. Turned down now = must get it on within the next 24 hours.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

Your wife is bull shi...ting you. She knew exactly what she was doing. The sex you got the next night. That was reset sex cause you called her out on it. 

Keep a discreet diary with times and dates of rejection. When she later brings up you don't initiate that's why you don't get sex as an excuse throw the diary at her. The look on her face will be priceless.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rags said:


> So ... after the now customary weekend intimacy, my wife props herself up in the attitude of wanting to have a Talk(tm)
> She says "don't be worried or defensive" - making me instantly worried and defensive, naturally.
> She then explains how it distresses her that I no longer ever attempt to initiate intimacy. She acknowledges that she has some responsibility for this, as the frequent rejections have caused me to always wait for her to initiate.
> However this apparently makes her feel undesired, and she doesn't like it.
> ...


Are you interested in how the lady-brain works? 

TEASE her. From a distance. Seriously. Drives us wild. She will pounce you.

I catch my husband glancing down at my nipples quite often. I love it. He tries to do it very cooly so I won't notice but I catch him. Makes me smile inside and start thinking about sex. Covert little things...playing with my hair, watching TV and stroking me softly everywhere *except*, smelling my hair, touching me at my waist as I walk by...pick some things to try and then see how they work - couples can experiment, just don't put too much stock if something doesn't work. You can't believe the number of times my husband decides to come up behind me and hug me and kiss my neck when I have my hands in dishwater - and I'm, like, "why do you always grab me when I have my hands in dishwater?!" Just a funny comeback can be great, like, "It's the way your ass wiggles when you're scrubbing...okay, okay, okay, I'm going...this is me going...I can wait."

Her stepping out of the shower and catching you by surprise when you say "DAY-UM!" and walk away like you are trying really hard to control yourself but she's just too hot and you have to make a huge effort to behave. 

Women are such different sexual beings, I know. I don't know, maybe I'm off-base and your wife is a totally different person about what her turn-ons are. But, subtlety and her catching you ogling her, then trying to reel yourself back in - man, that is a big turn on. It's kind of a foreplay, flirt-dance. Maybe you guys could experiment with what works for the two of you. 

If she is asking you about initiating sex, she's INTO you, I guarantee it. If she didn't care about you - and I'm sorry for how confusing this may seem - she wouldn't be bringing it up at all. You're a lucky dude.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Sports Fan said:


> Your wife is bull shi...ting you. She knew exactly what she was doing. The sex you got the next night. That was reset sex cause you called her out on it.
> 
> Keep a discreet diary with times and dates of rejection. When she later brings up you don't initiate that's why you don't get sex as an excuse throw the diary at her. The look on her face will be priceless.


Don't do that.


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

I'm sorry you are wrong. Every woman is different. You have given him an answer based on your relationship which appears to be good.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Sports Fan said:


> I'm sorry you are wrong. Every woman is different. You have given him an answer based on your relationship which appears to be good.


And thus I wrote a caveat in that post: "I don't know, maybe I'm off-base and your wife is a totally different person about what her turn-ons are."

Yes, I gave him some ideas from a woman's standpoint and I think it's pretty clear that these were some ideas from my own personal experience. Maybe other women would like to weigh in and say, "No, you're way off base happiness27, most women don't like to be flirted with and seduced."

If you'd rather read the information from a different source...

https://dominantsoul.wordpress.com/psychology-of-submission/pre-foreplay/


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

Don't know why your getting so defensive. I posted some advice which actually did work for me then you responded with (do not do that).

I was just responding too you. If you don't like advice or comments given to the Other Person don't respond.


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## Violet28 (Oct 4, 2018)

I agree, tentative is not sexy. It makes you feel like your man is a kid is begging for a treat. Kind of reinforces the whole 'mommy mode' that sometimes occurs in relationships.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Sports Fan said:


> Your wife is bull shi...ting you. She knew exactly what she was doing. The sex you got the next night. That was reset sex cause you called her out on it.
> 
> Keep a discreet diary with times and dates of rejection. When she later brings up you don't initiate that's why you don't get sex as an excuse throw the diary at her. The look on her face will be priceless.


Hopefully, some men will weigh in here but if you did to your spouse what you have described here, in my opinion, this is abusive.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Violet28 said:


> I agree, tentative is not sexy. It makes you feel like your man is a kid is begging for a treat. Kind of reinforces the whole 'mommy mode' that sometimes occurs in relationships.


I wouldn't want to put a man down for being tentative.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> Sports Fan said:
> 
> 
> > Your wife is bull shi...ting you. She knew exactly what she was doing. The sex you got the next night. That was reset sex cause you called her out on it.
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This mirrors my experience 100%.




happiness27 said:


> Are you interested in how the lady-brain works?
> 
> TEASE her. From a distance. Seriously. Drives us wild. She will pounce you.
> 
> ...


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## Violet28 (Oct 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I wouldn't want to put a man down for being tentative.


In person or on an internet forum where he is asking for advice? He was tentative and she wasn't interested, it seems that being 'manly' turns her on more.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

In general, don't assume that "all women"  like to have their hair pulled, slapped, spit on, verbally abused etc. etc.

OP if you are discovering that this is what your wife likes; then great. But go carefully.


Does your wife always have to provide high octane sex a la pornography? Or can she be affectionately available?

A lot of women might be down with cuddling and missionary; if they knew that was acceptable. When there's a lot of pressure to keep upping the ante and try a bazillion and one weirdo sex positions it can be boring and a turn-off.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> Dont be tentative,it’s not attractive.




It’s about as a attractive as a partner that outwardly displays no interest in being pursued or sexual until they want sex (e.g. flirting, touching, innuendo).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Violet28 said:


> In person or on an internet forum where he is asking for advice? He was tentative and she wasn't interested, it seems that being 'manly' turns her on more.



I don't really want to disagree with you because I get what you are saying - but what I mean is that I would want to respect a guy who is being tentative because I think he's trying to be respectful. I've asked my husband about that and that is his take on it. 

My husband said that it can get confusing to get two different messages of "don't be pushy" and "be more manly". Obviously, I'm not a guy so I had to ask my guy for an opinion about this.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Sports Fan said:


> I'm sorry you are wrong. Every woman is different. You have given him an answer based on your relationship which appears to be good.


LOL...another man's view here - going to side with Happiness this round. I've learned in my 15 years of marriage that women communicate and think very differently than men. It's a separate discussion on whether that's fair or not - but just accept that it is. Throwing a book with dates/times to prove your point is a very logical cliche man thing to do. Men see things, state things, try to solve things. 

But many women operate on feelings - not hard facts or reasoning (sorry women - certainly stereotyping but not judging you or talking down!). You may bludgeon the point home and "win" the battle but you'll have lost the war. Have to learn to use other channels and ways to communicate, to indulge in the dance with them. Things Happiness described. Once you accept and learn it's a ton of fun too. It's not better or worse just different. Instead of a dry open frank discussion (which to be fair there is a time and place for - but just 1x - never whining or complaining) focus on building the environment and setting the stage. And reading their cues and body language. And then being an unrepentant man when the time comes.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Hopefully, some men will weigh in here but if you did to your spouse what you have described here, in my opinion, this is abusive.





happiness27 said:


> I wouldn't want to put a man down for being tentative.


You are one of the few women in the world that would not mind or not put a man down for being tentative. 

I really don't think you understand that. You have a deep intellect, which I respect, but like people with high intellect you don't think like most people. 

In general, and man that is weak and tentative is a complete turn off to most, a huge majority of women. 

As I wrote else where, I have NEVER asked for sex in my life, and I have had a lot of sex. If you are in a marriage or relationship, sex either happens, you take it, lots of women want to be taken, or it does not. 

Unlike these men in these sexless/ low sex marriages, that is not me and there is a reason for that. 

A woman that I am with is ether attracted, and in love with me or she is not. Not saying I would not work on it in a serious relationship, but only to a point. 

If sex is not happening and it cannot be worked out in a reasonable amount of time, guess what, no relationship...

This guy, OP, is begging his wife for some sex, which is absolutely the worst thing you could ever do. 

Why people do this is beyond me...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> Why people do this is beyond me...


I think you know why. We didn't know better. We didn't think we had options. It took so long to find someone actually willing to have sex with us more than once, that we were not going to throw that away over a few NOs. By the time it became clear that it was more than a few NOs, we were married and had kids and did not want to blow everything up - and then go back to the sexual desert that was being single.

See, this is a self-reinforcing death spiral. If you think you are unattractive, you are. If you think it will take "forever" to find another partner, it will. The toughest part about this spiral is that our fears are not about imaginary problems. There is a good chance that being single will, for us, be just as lousy as it was before we married the wrong person. Nevertheless, you are correct that we should leave shortly after the sex drops off. But don't tell us "being single won't be that bad - you'll do fine". Tell us the truth - being single may suck for a while but agreeing to a sexless marriage guarantees that the suckiness will never end. And you will end up hating yourself. So get out even if being single will stink. In the long run, staying is even worse.

Any guy who stays in a low sex marriage is more loss averse than goal seeking. Don't focus on the upside. Focus on avoiding an even worse downside.


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

Some serious projecting going on I think.

Really. Sex is not happening? Actually it is (as I thought was clear from the initial post.) It's the point that I tend to let her initiate, as it's a sure thing then, that she wasn't completely ok with.

Begging? No. That never happens. Good grief! I am not some downtrodden waif!

I do find the difference in communication styles confusing - and that dissonance between stated intent and action was what I was hoping to get some insight into. 

I have some things to consider and analyse, and will do so.

Thanks to all that have contributed. I think this topic has run its course.

Rags


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

What Happiness is talking about is responsive desire, and this is how most (not all, but most) women operate. We can't just flip desire on and off like a switch. (Men seem completely capable of doing so.) So, if you behave in a way--ongoing--that makes her feel desired by you, she will be more receptive to sex. It puts he in a better frame of mind.

Men whose partners rarely decline or seem always ready for sex... these women aren't unique or special. But the men are always doing small things (like Happiness described) which make the woman feel desired and special, continuously--not just when he's trying to "butter her up" for sex. A woman who feels consistently desired and desirable feels more sexy and connected to her man. A partner who only cranks it up when he wants sex makes her feel like an object.

To put it another way... showing her that she is always desirable to you, even when you DON'T want sex, makes her feel like you want HER for who she is. It will make her feel like she is the only woman in the world for you. Initiating sex without this makes her feel like you ONLY want her for sex, and that she could be any woman, that she's just a blow up doll with a pulse.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Sports Fan said:


> Keep a discreet diary with times and dates of rejection. When she later brings up you don't initiate that's why you don't get sex as an excuse throw the diary at her. The look on her face will be priceless.






happiness27 said:


> Hopefully, some men will weigh in here but if you did to your spouse what you have described here, in my opinion, this is abusive.




Depends whether the diary  is hard or softcover as it might hurt.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

FeministInPink said:


> What Happiness is talking about is responsive desire, and this is how most (not all, but most) women operate. We can't just flip desire on and off like a switch. (Men seem completely capable of doing so.) So, if you behave in a way--ongoing--that makes her feel desired by you, she will be more receptive to sex. It puts he in a better frame of mind.
> 
> Men whose partners rarely decline or seem always ready for sex... these women aren't unique or special. But the men are always doing small things (like Happiness described) which make the woman feel desired and special, continuously--not just when he's trying to "butter her up" for sex. A woman who feels consistently desired and desirable feels more sexy and connected to her man. A partner who only cranks it up when he wants sex makes her feel like an object.
> 
> ...


Yeah, THIS ^^^^^


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rags said:


> Some serious projecting going on I think.
> 
> Really. Sex is not happening? Actually it is (as I thought was clear from the initial post.) It's the point that I tend to let her initiate, as it's a sure thing then, that she wasn't completely ok with.
> 
> ...


I showed your original post to my husband and he just looked at me and said: "Has this guy been reading our mail?!" lol - seriously, my husband and I had practically that same interaction several times. Seriously, thank you - it helps when somebody posts something and it makes another couple not feel so alone in the struggle to figure each other out.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rags said:


> Some serious projecting going on I think.
> 
> Really. Sex is not happening? Actually it is (as I thought was clear from the initial post.) It's the point that I tend to let her initiate, as it's a sure thing then, that she wasn't completely ok with.
> 
> ...


This from a man that has not had sex for 4 MONTHS... yeah you really got this under control....


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> This from a man that has not had sex for 4 MONTHS... yeah you really got this under control....


Did I miss something? Where did he say he hadn't had sex for 4 months?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Did I miss something? Where did he say he hadn't had sex for 4 months?


You may be right, I think I am confusing this one with another one...


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> You may be right, I think I am confusing this one with another one...


Whew!


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