# Marrying a virgin vs. Experience



## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

So, after reading several threads about sex and all that good stuff on this site, I am curious. 

Read several threads about marrying virgins, and SO that you...test drived. 
And I can't find a pattern in it. 
Some virgins after marriage never want sex. Others have drives that are higher than their spouse that did have premarital sex with someone else. 
And read several threads about people who did test-drive a marriage, and then got married and lived happily ever after. And others that got bait-and-switched by a spouse that pretended to enjoy sex to get married. 

So what is your experience?
Did you marry a virgin? Or someone with experience? 
And would you say you are sexually satisfied? Or is it anything but?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

I did not marry a virgin. 

What I did was date a nympho and marry a prude. I still suspect there was something in the wedding cake.


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## JenTee (Nov 19, 2012)

As you know I'm in a different category entirely but my husband was my only sexual partner ever. He had 2 girls before me. Both very short relationships.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I did not marry a virgin and I wasn't a virgin when I got married either. Our "numbers" aren't high at all compared to some numbers I've seen on TAM. Not even in the double digits. I would not have married a man with a promiscuous past. The number of people my husband had been with was reasonable in my opinion. When I met him, he had slightly more experience than me and had done one or two things I hadn't, for a while that bothered me, but I'm way past that now. He has done much more with me in the past two decades than he did before. 

I'm very satisfied. No complaints from me. Before I posted I asked him what he thought and he's very happy too.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Yes, I married a virgin. Even if I could do it again, I would not. At least, not without having a VERY long and detailed discussion about sexual expectations after marriage. Contract in blood and all that.

Turns out that missed test drive was pretty important. Were it not for sex, I don't think we'd fight more than a few times a year. Our current sexual situation is by both accounts our single greatest marital failure and source of pain, angst, and lost connection.

We married in 1985 in the Catholic church. They made us take a pre-marital course on finances, child rearing, personality inventories, the whole nine yards. But they ignored the part about sex, and we were too young and naive to know. Lo and behold...


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Broken at 20 said:


> So what is your experience?
> Did you marry a virgin? Or someone with experience?
> And would you say you are sexually satisfied? Or is it anything but?


I married a girl with limited experience. Although, not as limited as she claims. I made the classic mistake of dating for a while and the sex was great, then the sex cooled off, which she claimed was only because of not being married, so I bought it.

My married sex life started out mediocre, went to lousy, and is back to mediocre. Hopefully the trend stays positive and I can experience an excellent sex life before I die.

I did date a few girls that were much more experienced. Some of them blew my mind. But, none were loyal.


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

I know I'm in the minority here, we were not virgins when we married, but we also did not have sex until after we married. I can't say that I wouldn't marry a virgin, but I can say that the fact that he was experienced and more confident than me really helped me find my way so to speak.

ETA: didn't answer the orignal ?:

I'm very satisfied, and I would say he is as well. I only had a handful of partners before marriage, and his numbers weren't too high either.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Neither of us were virgins, but that's because I had been married before. I've only ever been with my husbands. Both have cheated on me too. I wish I had known more details about my current hubby's past sexual life, because I would have hopefully clued in to the fact he is a sex addict and could have avoided the whole sordid mess he put me through. He wasn't with that many partners before me (4), but he engaged in other sexual behaviours that healthy people don't usually (paying for phone sex, acting out scenes from porn magazines when he was 14 with his sisters friend, huge porn stash and frequent masturbation, that type of thing) So the number of partners isn't necessarily all you need to know.

I had very limited experience (obviously) when I got married the first time, and that never changed. My first husband wasn't that great to me, in bed or out. When I met my current hubby, I was in my early thirties and just starting to feel better about myself, and he brought out the wantonness in me. He is an excellent lover and we enjoy each other very much now, since we've gotten past what he did.


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## marriedguy (Nov 7, 2009)

were both modern virgins(meaning we had done oral with each other)..

Biggest mistake I made was not being clear on my sexual expectations..I thought she would just
adapt and love it all cuz we “loved“ each other..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

marriedguy said:


> were both modern virgins(meaning we had done oral with each other)..
> 
> Biggest mistake I made was not being clear on my sexual expectations..I thought she would just
> adapt and love it all cuz we “loved“ each other..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey, pal, at least you had oral. Wadda ya' *****in' about? 

I had a handful of women before I got married. They all enjoyed sex just fine, and none were squeamish or repulsed by any of it. I didn't know LD people even existed until I married one. 

I don't know what exactly are your expectations, but I understand your struggle. Us HD spouses can suffer just as much self-doubt about our orientation, desires, and drives as the spouse who wonders why they don't like sex that much. 

In the end, there's nothing wrong with either of you. It's not the individuals that are the problem, it's the mismatch. Your wants and desires are perfectly reasonable (we're not talking cannibalism here, are we?) and so are you wife's.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Yes, I married a virgin. Even if I could do it again, I would not. At least, not without having a VERY long and detailed discussion about sexual expectations after marriage. Contract in blood and all that.
> 
> Turns out that missed test drive was pretty important. Were it not for sex, I don't think we'd fight more than a few times a year. Our current sexual situation is by both accounts our single greatest marital failure and source of pain, angst, and lost connection.
> 
> We married in 1985 in the Catholic church. They made us take a pre-marital course on finances, child rearing, personality inventories, the whole nine yards. But they ignored the part about sex, and we were too young and naive to know. Lo and behold...


Unfortunately test driving does not mean that what you test drove will run the same way after marriage... boy did I learn that one!!!


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

My wife wasn't a virgin, but she was damn close to it. She had sex with an ex-boyfriend a couple times during a one week period, and that was it. 

My wife and I were best friends for years before we got together. Even when we were both virgins, we talked frankly about sex. We knew we were sexual people, and even in virginity we didn't feel chaste, or terrified of sex.

We got together very young, and for spiritual purposes decided to wait until marriage. We were together, and celibate, for many, many years. At that point she'd had one sex partner, and I'd had one sex partner. 

First time we ever had sex was on our honeymoon. Our sex life has been amazing ever since. 

Meanwhile we both know married couples who had sex for years prior to marriage, and it slowly died after the rings were on. We are having more sex in our marriage than most of our single, and married, friends are having.

We don't believe you need to take a test drive before marriage. We do, however, believe that people who decide to wait, or decide to marry a virgin, need to be extremely transparent, upfront, and intuitive. What gave my wife and I confidence that we could wait was that we knew from our very first kiss that we had insane, explosive, out of this world sexual chemistry. It was potent, and apparent. We both felt like that kiss was better than any sexual experience we'd had with other people. We just _knew_.

Also we were very frank about our views, and expectations, about sex. Everything we talked about has come to play in our marriage. There has been very little in the way of surprise. Communication is paramount.

We don't knock anyone who decide to test drive. Most do, and that is just the reality of the times we live in. But from where we stand, watching so many sexually challenged, and sexually dead marriages, the majority of which included sex pre-marriage, we don't feel like test-driving has really done anything to improve the state of marriage.


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## marriedguy (Nov 7, 2009)

Cletus said:


> Hey, pal, at least you had oral. Wadda ya' *****in' about?
> 
> I had a handful of women before I got married. They all enjoyed sex just fine, and none were squeamish or repulsed by any of it. I didn't know LD people even existed until I married one.
> 
> ...


yes oral..and ONLY if I ask for it..its not so much that she doesnt do things, she just isnt interested
in doing em and is pretty squemmish about it..and i have to
ask..
all it is is incompatibility, high drive and low drive..no motivation
to change, etc..boring in other words when only one spouse
wants sex know what Im sayin?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

marriedguy said:


> all it is is incompatibility, high drive and low drive..no motivation
> to change, etc..boring in other words when only one spouse
> wants sex know what Im sayin?


Haven't got a clue. Do go on?


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

jaquen said:


> We don't knock anyone who decide to test drive. Most do, and that is just the reality of the times we live in. But from where we stand, watching so many sexually challenged, and sexually dead marriages, the majority of which included sex pre-marriage, we don't feel like test-driving has really done anything to improve the state of marriage.


I feel the same, while I know I'm the odd man out because I was sexually active a few years before dating my H, I can say that this is the most fulfilling relationship I've been in. Ironically, he was my only relationship that didnt involve sex. ( not to say that it wasnt hard to abstain for us). But sadly I get grouped into stereotypes of women trying to trick men into marriage. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I disagree that abstaining always means that the person isn't that into you or that things can't work out.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

I would never marry a virgin if I were to try marriage again.
For one thing, you really never know if the person you are with is a true virgin or just one who might wish they were.
I prefer a lady to have some experience so she will already be aware of what she thinks she wants in a partner.


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## marriedguy (Nov 7, 2009)

Cletus said:


> Haven't got a clue. Do go on?


trust me u dont want me to 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

TrustInUs said:


> I feel the same, while I know I'm the odd man out because I was sexually active a few years before dating my H, I can say that this is the most fulfilling relationship I've been in. Ironically, he was my only relationship that didnt involve sex. ( not to say that it wasnt hard to abstain for us). But sadly I get grouped into stereotypes of women trying to trick men into marriage. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I disagree that abstaining always means that the person isn't that into you or that things can't work out.


All you have to do is take a short tour around this board, or through the wasteland of marriages among the people in your own life, to witness how the increase of pre-marital sex has done nothing to improve the overall longevity of marriage.

One of the least talked about, positive aspects about going into a marriage with little, or no, previous partners is that you have the uncanny opportunity to experience two key things:

A. You discover if you can truly love, be passionate about, and in love with, someone without the heady haze of sex. Sex is extremely important in my marriage, and bar some horrendous physical or mental illness, I would refuse to live in a sexless marriage. However there is something beautiful about experiencing a time when you were truly in love with a person for the sake of love itself, and for them, without any sex to reinforce that.

B. You have the rare chance to mold your sexuality around each other. This only works if both people come into the marriage with little, or no, experience, but it's pretty amazing. I can speak only for us, but our sexuality feels very tailor made to one another. There are not a lot of ghosts in our bed to contend with.

At the end of the day, it worked for us. And it really hasn't worked for many others we know, even those who had years of sexual experience together under the bridge.

Seems a lot of people do change once that ring slips on, so I'm not even sure if it matters who you meet sexually before the wedding in a lot of cases.


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

Well I can say that I did bring baggage into my marriage, both childhood background and past sexual experiences. It's only recently that I can appreciate my past but still sometimes regret it (speaking sexually). 

But I can't deny that getting to know my H in other ways without bonding through sex was the best that I did. Of course, as you said it, doesn't work out for everyone. I find myself leery to advocate not having sex before marriage, especially since I have no room to talk, but I agree that the positives aren't talked about much.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

I was but my wife wasn't, although to be honest by the time we got married I wasn't. 

Once I got started I was like a clockwork bunny what a rush. All she had to do was wind me up and off I'd go. Nothing stopped me, not even a severe case of bronchitis.
My wifes experience or lack of meant nothing to me, although with her having experience she could 'take me in hand' so to speak.

Conversely, she even now says that I gave her something special to keep and that she loves the feeling that she is my one and only.

I was a little ham fisted, all fingers and thumbs, and so horny I was on a hair trigger. but I learned.
Making love was amazing and still is 25 years later.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Nope, I can never end up with a virgin, but that's just me

I've grown tired of having to teach them and then ending up feeling like sh-t making them all feel insecure all the time. I'm also spoiled by a freakin professional, which also sux


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

My husband was a virgin. And, like Jaquen's wife, I was damn close to one. I had only been with two men, one time each. Both of them had been my boyfriends. My husband and I were compatible from the beginning. And, it didn't change until after he got sick. Sex has gone down to maybe once a week now. Still, once a week is better than once a month... or longer. Considering everything we have been through the last few years... I'd say that's good. And yes, I am satisfied.

If I could go back and do it all over again, there is only one thing I would possibly change.... I would have been a virgin.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I was a virgin when I met my wife as a freshman in college. She said her # was 3 but it was higher. Idk the real number or the real extent of her experiences but she was very active and unrestrained.

Our sex life started out with a bang.  For 2 years it was hot, then it toned down to nearly nothing just before the wedding. Then it was statistically nothing. Now 30 years later we're sort of back on track but she is still having significant emotional issues around sex related to her child sex abuse.




jaquen said:


> You have the rare chance to mold your sexuality around each other. This only works if both people come into the marriage with little, or no, experience, but it's pretty amazing. I can speak only for us, but our sexuality feels very tailor made to one another. There are not a lot of ghosts in our bed to contend with.


I really like this because it speaks to how I feel about my side of the marriage. I know if I D it will never be the same with another woman. Probably in some ways sex will be better with other women, but still there is a specialness to the exclusivity for me.

From my wife's perspective I think it is irrelevant that I was a virgin. I don't think she feels any specialness about being the only woman I've had sex with.

I think the most important thing is clear communication before marriage about desires, preferences, expectations, and boundaries.

But if we are going to just look at numbers I think it usually works out best if the two are in the same general ballpark. Each person will have his or her own feelings about what is similar. I think zero (virgin) is by definition it's own ballpark. One is hugely different than zero. Mid single digits is it's own ballpark. Over 20 is another arena.

So I would only marry a virgin if I were a virgin.

And there is a big difference between meeting someone as a virgin at 18 (like I was) vs being a virgin at 28. Virginity by itself is not an indicator of anything, though it is part of the picture.

I would generally advise my own kids not to be virgins or marry virgins, but to keep their number down. Having experience in relationships is key to building good skills in relationships.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Yes, I married a virgin. Even if I could do it again, I would not. At least, not without having a VERY long and detailed discussion about sexual expectations after marriage. Contract in blood and all that.
> 
> Turns out that missed test drive was pretty important. Were it not for sex, I don't think we'd fight more than a few times a year. Our current sexual situation is by both accounts our single greatest marital failure and source of pain, angst, and lost connection.
> 
> We married in 1985 in the Catholic church. They made us take a pre-marital course on finances, child rearing, personality inventories, the whole nine yards. But they ignored the part about sex, and we were too young and naive to know. Lo and behold...


Yeah. I've done some reading into this, and it seems like most Christian churches (Catholic or otherwise) refuse to tackle this issue and discuss the Biblical imperative that spouses provide for each other's sexual satisfaction.

If you are still practicing Catholics, have the two of you ever discussed this situation with your priest in private? From what I've seen, most clergy and pastoral staff will to some degree affirm conjugal rights within marriage.

The problem with this approach is that most refusing spouses like your wife will try to weasel their way out of it by arguing the standard is "need" (which they proceed to define for you) and not satisfaction. Or, they will say that requirement is not applicable. Or, they will openly admit they are comfortable with ignoring that requirement.

Sadly, I have seen relatively few people say "despite my own low sex drive, I provide plentifully and cheerfully for my spouse because it's my responsibility and he/she depends on me for it". Still, it's a relatively easy step to take and your wife's reaction to it may shed some light on what the underlying issues are.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> So, after reading several threads about sex and all that good stuff on this site, I am curious.
> 
> Read several threads about marrying virgins, and SO that you...test drived.
> And I can't find a pattern in it.
> ...


I was actually dating my now wife who was 20 at the time, and a 16 yo I knew was a virgin, and who had very sweetly told me "Momma says we can get married even if daddy dosn't like you". 

I began having sex with my wife to be, and shortly thereafter let the other girl down as gently as possible...No, always the gentleman, I didn't take her virginity, although at times I have regretted it.....

My sex life was beyond all expectations for at least 30 years...I don't think I could have done better....

I was 18 at the time, married at 19...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I did not marry a virgin, technically speaking, as I was my ex's first. But, I will say that marrying her was easily the worst mistake of my life, and it had to do with her sexual dysfunction. At my age (40) whether I would marry a virgin is moot. If I do marry again, the lady will undoubtedly have had enough experience to know her preferences and the importance of being with someone sexually compatible.

Hypothetically, I don't know I would have married a virgin had I to do it over. I don't feel the high rate of marital dissatisfaction indicates pre-marital sex does not prevent issues, as there are other factors besides sex which impact marital satisfaction.

I think marrying as a virgin creates pitfalls, as you commit to sharing yourself with someone whose tastes may differ from your own. Furthermore, you are committing to accomodating your spouse a great deal. A sex life at the intersection of your joint, innate sexual preferences (what Schnarch calls "sexual leftovers") will not satisfy for long.

I think successfully marrying as a virgin requires a greater level maturity, which would be great if everybody fully appreciated this before marriage (or stayed single). But, with so many people lacking that maturity and seeking to get married for reasons other than having compatible life partner (loneliness, financial support, wanting a family), you cannot assume that a virgin you marry is committed to meeting your needs despite not knowing what his or her own needs are.

For anyone contemplating marrying a virgin, I encourage you to learn from my mistakes and thus offer this advice:

* Making your sexual expectations known to your prospective spouse is a start, but is not enough. You need to express your needs in terms of boundaries and consequences. I told my ex "I expect XYZ out of our sex life", when I should have said "I expect XYZ out of our sex life and I doubt our marriage will succeed without it".

* In the absence of sex, the two of you should be having a hard time keeping your hands off of each other. If your virgin future husband or wife does not struggle to remain pure, that most likely is not abundant self-control. It is either low drive or weak attraction to you, and you would be well-advised to think long and hard about marrying that person.

* I've noticed that sometimes people use moral standards or wanting to enjoy the specialness of sex only with one's spouse as a masquerade for sexual issues. It's simply easier to say "I am saving myself for marriage" than to admit "I don't find sex appealing" or "I am fearful of sex due to some unfortunately life experiences". So, extensive pre-marital counseling might be in order to make sure your spouse is indeed waiting for you rather than just avoiding sex as long as possible.

ETA: my ex admitted she resented me not being a virgin. But, it was not because she wanted to be my first so that we could explore each other only. It was because having experience made me aware of what was out there and raised the bar for her. IOW, if I had been a virgin (and presumably ignorant) she could have skated by without much effort.

Now, most of us would agree it's abhorrent that you would want your spouse to be ignorant just to make your own job easier. And, I feel prior experience is not necessary to know the good sex from bad sex and when someone is just "mailing it in". But, that was the reality of how she felt. Let that serve as an indication of why you may want to think hard about marrying a virgin.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

My wife was a virgin when I met her. I was her first, she was not my first. I can honestly say that I wish I had waited for her. And her lack of experience certainly didn't dampen her enthusiasm. Even now, 25 years later.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

RandomDude said:


> Nope, I can never end up with a virgin, but that's just me
> 
> I've grown tired of having to teach them and then ending up feeling like sh-t making them all feel insecure all the time. I'm also spoiled by a freakin professional, which also sux


See and this right here is the type VIRGINS wouldn't want....or shouldn't want -if they have any sense in their head.... MR UNromantic Random DUDE -thinking we are all piss poor & can't learn anything & insecure to boot. 

As much disdain as he feels for the UNexperienced, this is how I felt with those who HAD lots of women under his belt. 

I like you Random Dude... don't be offended... I just wanted to say this plays both ways.

I wanted all the awkward sweet emotional vulnerability to be shared between 2 exploring for the 1st time - this was MY ROMANCE ~ my fantasy as a young girl. I feel so very blessed to have found this in life - as it is such a rare rare thing. 

We hold these things very dear.... Now granted, we were'nt the brightest bulbs around. Some *repression* at play, but our hormones got the best of us anyway. We couldn't keep our hands off of each other not long after we met....

... He know I was easily orgasmic .. 

I was only 15 when we met, I didn't feel we should be having







. 

I remember thinking ...







how in the world are we NOT going to go there....the lust was intense/ overwhelming... but we managed. We were dirty virgins ~ NO oral sex, but we mutually masterbated each other (every time we got alone)... this kept us from going stark raving MAD... I had no worries about pregnancy/ or needing birth control...played the fence in my religious beliefs ...

But romantically...we still had something new & beautiful to bring to our wedding day... "the fusion" of his entering me & becoming "ONE". This was very important to me. 

We had such anticipation for that day.... So many times we've heard people say - it all goes downhill after you marry.... I recall us having a conversation about this ...saying ... "What are these people talking about " as we've always felt it was BETTER. 

Do I feel it is* risky* to marry a VIRGIN... I DO... if a woman is so closed off , uses her religious beliefs to shame you for lusting, if she doesn't CRAVE your touch & want to be touched... if it is not a struggle for her to contain her LUST & passion, I would tell any man to RUN LIKE HELL & not look back......she is low drive & he may feel like he is in a Prison after the vows, every man should know if his future bride can orgasm & love it ....if they want to wait... I worry about this with our sons, they are not the Playboy type ~ they are like their dad, they believe in waiting for Love. 

I don't want them to suffer some of the fates I have read on this very forum. It would kill me as a Mother to see them go through that. One of my prayers - a very horny wife for all my dear sons ~ and faithful too.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

CharlieParker said:


> My wife had a high number. I was a virgin. She molded me to be the best possible lover for her and us. There was open and honest discussions including expectations. When she compliments my "great" skill I do tease her and remind her I had a great teacher. Experience vs lack there of was never an issue.


Does your wife, as mine does, feel that you gave her something special, something that is hers and yours?

Did she know, or guess as mine did because I was so hamfisted?

Mine still makes little jokes about *Cherry* coke and *Cherry* cake.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

My wife was a single mom, so obviously not a virgin, although I did actually ask if the child was really hers the first time we made love...She was totally wet, and still very difficult to enter...Stayed that way till she had our son...

She had heard about orgasms but had never had one (no, not even masturbation). Get this, her mother had 13 kids, and told her sex was dirty:scratchhead:

I could not have had a better sex partner....


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

sandc said:


> My wife was a virgin when I met her. I was her first, she was not my first. I can honestly say that I wish I had waited for her. And her lack of experience certainly didn't dampen her enthusiasm. Even now, 25 years later.


My wife was a virgin,when we started out and I was not.
She decided that she didn't want us to have sex until we were married,and I agreed.
After marriage,
We have had problems in other areas except sex.

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A PROBLEM IN OUR SEX LIFE.

I didn't need to " test drive" her. She is not a vehicle.
We spoke about sexual expectations a lot before marriage,and we were on the same wavelength.
No bait and switch here.

However I think I we were both lucky and I can understand why others may not have the same view.


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## LearninAsWeGo (Oct 20, 2012)

You ABSOLUTELY have to try it before you buy it. No question whatsoever. To ignore that is out to your own peril, and chances are VERY VERY high of divorce or at least one long term unhappy partner (who may or may not stay married and faithful out of duty, loyalty, fear of leaving on their own, etc etc). 50% of marriages fail, and another 50+ percent of those that "make it" have at least one miserable partner. Do anything you can to avoid either the marriage failure or the duty marriage. You can have a good one, but it's a lot of work (and pre-marital homework... including self and professional counseling, meeting the families, having sex to learn each other, developing shared hobbies, etc etc).

I'm a regularly practicing religious person, and I think it's good to separate the bed for a couple weeks or even months before the wedding so that you can enjoy it a bit extra on the honeymoon and newlywed period, but if you haven't both had sex and lived together (for at least extended 1+ week periods) before you tie the knot, you're nuts and bound for problems. You might solve those problems, but why not solve the conflicts before you get married (esp since many people add stress of parenting very soon after marriage). Take that to the bank.

I would say that sexual compatibility is second only to common goals in terms of plans for the immediate household family (how many kids, family finances, etc). In the bedroom, you need to know if you are anatomically a match (size of P and depth of V), a match in terms sex drive and sexuality and comfort zone, a near match in fantasies and "out of bounds" stuff (which may later be in bounds but never count on that). Being on the same page sexually is even more important than agreement on living location, career goals, social circle, extended family relationships, retirement plans, etc if you ask me.

Sexual compatibility and a fairly close match in drive and openness are essential to a long term committed romantic relationship (that even goes for couples that want to be committed but not necessarily always monogamous).


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

What about those that "tried before buying" and still ended up with problems later down the line? I don't think there is one size fits all. Just on this board there are long term marriages that on either side of the coin that have worked out.

I do think that any good marriage requires a lot of work though. And I'm in the camp that had to do some work before the marriage... I've said here many times that our in depth pre-martial courses really helped us prepare for what was to come.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

LearninAsWeGo said:


> I'm a regularly practicing religious person, and I think it's good to separate the bed for a couple weeks or even months before the wedding so that you can enjoy it a bit extra on the honeymoon and newlywed period, but if you haven't both had sex and lived together (for at least extended 1+ week periods) before you tie the knot, you're nuts and bound for problems.


We had no sex before marriage.

We didn't shack up before marriage.

No "try it before you buy it" whatsoever.

Happily married, tons of sex, tons of sexual chemistry, and the most drama free, "in love" marriage we know of in our lives.

Meanwhile the vast majority of marriages in the US are comprised of people who took the "try it before you buy it" approach, and the divorce rate is currently at an all time high in this country.

So the actual evidence doesn't line up to your assertions. "Try it before you buy it" seems, in concept, like total common sense.

Except the executions, surprisingly, hasn't aided the state of marriage..._at all_.

Funny enough, just going by TAM alone, the very few people I see here who are beaming about great marriages, myself included, include an exponentially high amount of people who went into marriage with at least one virgin, or one damn-close-to-a-virgin.


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

^^ sheesh, that last paragraph almost left me with little hope for mine.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TrustInUs said:


> What about those that "tried before buying" and still ended up with problems later down the line? I don't think there is one size fits all. Just on this board there are long term marriages that on either side of the coin that have worked out.


Did you talk about finances? Child rearing? Where you were going to live? Hobbies?

Would you have felt comfortable marrying your spouse if they said "We can do anything before marriage except talk about money?" If not money, then pick the one thing that is too important for you to enter a permanent relationship with no foreknowledge.

So why is sex any different? Even if you talk about sex before marriage, if you're a virgin, all you have are hypotheticals. Sure it can work, just like an arranged marriage can work. But a bunch of us here are on the losing end of that proposition and are left wondering why sex has to be treated so differently from every other important and potentially relationship ending problems you might encounter in a marriage.

Sure things are going to change over time in your relationship, sex included, and no one has a really good crystal ball. But at the very least, in a month of premarital sex you can figure out if you are utterly and completely incompatible before the rings go on. 

I'm not trying to convince you what to do, only question why we put sex into this other category when it has every bit as much a chance at bringing our relationships exquisite pain.


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Did you talk about finances? Child rearing? Where you were going to live? Hobbies?
> 
> Would you have felt comfortable marrying your spouse if they said "We can do anything before marriage except talk about money?" If not money, then pick the one thing that is too important for you to enter a permanent relationship with no foreknowledge.
> 
> ...



First let me say that my response that you qouted was to a poster saying that you absolutely had to have sex before marriage in order to ensure comparability. My response was that is not true, there are many who waited and have great marriages.

As for your questions. Many people believe they are compitiable by having premarital sex but still have issues or end up in divorce. As I said before, there is no one size fits all. I saw many relationships where couples lived together for years and never got married. And those that did ended up getting divorced fairly quickly. You can be open and honest talking about sex just like you can with all the other aspects of marriage that you listed without having sex.

I'm not trying to change anyones views either, but I won't deny that I believe there are some positives in waiting. Granted I've only been married a hot minute compared to many around here, but we are happy and it worked for us.


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## effess (Nov 20, 2009)

my wife was a virgin when we married. our sex like has progressively worsened. at first she was sexual passionate and somewhat adventurous. 
after a decade of marriage kids issues and female health problems our sex life basically sucks. 
she was and is when shes in the right frame of mind a great lover but thats rare. 
personally i like that she was a.virgin but don't think by any means its a prerequisite especially in western society.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I was a virgin when I got married and lived to regret it. My very understanding fiancee turned out to be asexual and, 6 years later, I ended up divorcing him.

I would never enter into a legal agreement to be faithful and spend the rest of my life with someone without knowing that we were sexually compatible.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Did you talk about finances? Child rearing? Where you were going to live? Hobbies?
> 
> Would you have felt comfortable marrying your spouse if they said "We can do anything before marriage except talk about money?" If not money, then pick the one thing that is too important for you to enter a permanent relationship with no foreknowledge.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but some of us feel it is something to be experienced by husband and wife... not boyfriend & girlfriend... not fiance & fiancee. And that is why I intend to stress abstinence to my children. I know I can't control them. They will know there are other options should they choose the other path, but with our religious beliefs, abstinence will be stressed.

Sex before marriage isn't going to indicate whether you will be compatible after you say "I do". Many of the posters here have said "we had a GREAT sex life before we got married. WTH happened???" I view sex as a special bond to be shared with my spouse. I'm glad I didn't have a much experience before my husband and I met... but I still wish I had had NO experience, so we could have learned everything together. But, hey, that's my Christian beliefs.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Virgins are definitely more attractive as long term partners, wife material. So if you can snag one after having fun, good for you. Personally though, a woman with much experience is worthy of a quick shag and a goodbye. And don't go near single moms if you're under 30.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Virgins are definitely more attractive as long term partners, wife material. So if you can snag one after having fun, good for you. Personally though, a woman with much experience is worthy of a quick shag and a goodbye.



Wow!

:rofl:


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## ARF (Jan 26, 2011)

It really shouldn't matter. The most important thing is to have both parties committed to making every part of the marriage work. Unfortunately, our society is such where not everyone is honest about their intentions.

My guess is that by percentage, you are not going to see a huge difference regarding virgins vs. experienced partners in regards to general sexual satisfaction or dissatisfaction within the marriage.


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## Michael A. Brown (Oct 16, 2012)

When me and my wife got married, I'm not virgin anymore but my wife is still virgin at that time. We don't encounter any conflicts about it.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I was not a virgin, my wife was a virgin. After marriage, she did turn into a nymph nor did she turn off from sex. Over the last 18 years our sex drives have consistently remained along parallel tracks. 

Additionally her lack of experience did not make her a bad lover and my experience did not make me any better a lover. Life is not always binary.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

I don't need a virgin. But I would want a woman whose experience comes from committed relationships. If she is a virgin I want her and I to be able to have open and frank discussions about sex. If she is uncomfortable with that or feels those things are "nasty", then that's probably how she will view a sex life. No thanks.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Neither of us were virgins. Lost my virginity once I was legal to my boyfriend. I didn't date any virgins (I don't think) after about 16 yrs old. I liked having sex even then.

I also wanted to live with H before marriage. Glad I did. It's worked well for us.


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## WifeyRes (Mar 19, 2012)

I didn't get married to a virging and I wasn't a virgin either and because of this we both came with our experiences and had great sex life we satisfy each other.

and I'm glad we were not virgins


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

I didn't marry and I wouldn't have married a virgin (both of us had prior experiences). I'm also in the camp that wouldn't have married without without a significant test run. Now, admittedly, we went a bit overboard on the trial run part, but now 28 years married and 35 years together, so it worked out pretty well.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Cletus said:


> So why is sex any different? Even if you talk about sex before marriage, if you're a virgin, all you have are hypotheticals. Sure it can work, just like an arranged marriage can work. But a bunch of us here are on the losing end of that proposition and are left wondering why sex has to be treated so differently from every other important and potentially relationship ending problems you might encounter in a marriage.


Being a virgin is not an excuse to avoid talking thoroughly, honestly, and extensively about sex before you are married.

Being a virgin is not an excuse to be totally cut off from your sexuality. I was very aware of, and in tune with, my sexuality before I ever did the deed (the woman I slept with was nowhere near a virgin, 6 years older than me, and didn't believe I was a virgin for awhile). The same with my wife, she was comfortable in her self as a sexual being long before she lost her virginity.

Being a virgin does not excuse you to be a cold fish, or someone who gets the right to say "let's not talk about sex". If you're planning to marry a virgin, or someone who has almost no sex partners, and they seem timid, uncomfortable, or unsure about sex, but sex is important to you, DON'T MARRY THEM.

These conversations make no sense because EVERYONE was a virgin once. Everyone. And yet all virgins aren't created equal. Some people are very sexual long before they lose their virginity, and some people are cold, clamped, and cut off from their sexuality still long after that virginity is gone.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

I see it this way, most jobs want people with experience because they don't want to loose resources and time training them. Sooooooooo, why not use the same logic for this too? Someones sexual past doesn't intimidate me, but not knowing what I am getting into does, specially when we are talking about a commitment for life.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Memento said:


> I see it this way, most jobs want people with experience because they don't want to loose resources and time training them. Sooooooooo, why not use the same logic for this too? Someones sexual past doesn't intimidate me, but not knowing what I am getting into does, specially when we are talking about a commitment for life.


Most of the estimated 40 some million sexless couples in this country slept together before marriage.

Again, the theory makes perfect sense, but it's not translating into better, or sexually fulfilling, marriages in the long run.

Why? Because sex, or the lack of sex, at any given moment in the past has proven to have very little to do with what's going to happen in the future. The "test run" you took a decade ago doesn't predict the leaky radiator, busted carburetor, or cracked engine block today. 

I guarantee you that almost all the endless plethora of posters with sexual problems in their marriages on TAM are from people who had sex before marriage.

I totally understand that in modern societies most people will test before marriage. One of the reasons it was much easier to wait in centuries passed is because people were often wed not long after their sexual awakening; it's much easier to expect people to wait when they're marrying at 18. Relaxed social pressure to wait, the oversexualization of our culture, and marriages happening on average at older ages, has made the idea of waiting totally incompatible with our modern society.

Still, all things considered, it's not done a thing to help marriages stay sexually charged in the long run. All the talk of "compatibility" just is not translating on the overall scale of things.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Most of the estimated 40 some million sexless couples in this country slept together before marriage.
> 
> Again, the theory makes perfect sense, but it's not translating into better, or sexually fulfilling, marriages in the long run.
> 
> ...


You are right! Sexual activity is not a static thing. However, there are defective "carburetors","engines" and "radiators" that simply don't work or even if they are operational, they were made to be used with a different brand.


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## Randy52 (Oct 15, 2011)

EVERYONE was a virgin at one time, so experience does not necessarily equate to a healthy, long term active libido.
That being said, having been on both ends of it, I would definitely choose experience. My ex-wife was a virgin, and her sexuality never fully developed. She seemed to view sex as something to be endured rather than enjoyed. My present wife started early (age 15) and never slowed down..... thru 2 ex-husbands and numerous other lovers. I am now the beneficiary of all of her experiences, and I welcome it.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

See, I learned a couple weeks ago that, before meeting me, my husband believed "sex only for procreation"... Yea, that shocked me when he told me that. But then... he realized it isn't just for making babies. He learned that early on, just never told me until now. I am certain that's due to his upbringing. From the way my mother-in-law has spoken, she only "endured" her late husband's advances when they were having babies. I have wondered lately, if that was why the man had a porn collection....or at least the extensive collection my husband told me he had....

Don't worry, not turning this into an anti-porn thread lol. But my point is that even "test driving" can ensure that you will be evenly matched. So many on here have come back with "WTF happened??" AFTER having such an active, adventurous sex life before marrying. 

I hope my daughter finds a man who shares the values we are/will be teaching her, the same for my sons...hope they find women who share the same values.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Cletus said:


> *So why is sex any different?* Even if you talk about sex before marriage, if you're a virgin, all you have are hypotheticals. Sure it can work, just like an arranged marriage can work. But a bunch of us here are on the losing end of that proposition and are left wondering why sex has to be treated so differently from every other important and potentially relationship ending problems you might encounter in a marriage.


 Because there is nothing God has bestowed upon Man as powerful as this act ....







. It carries the awesome responsibility to create life itself. Can anything compare with this? Men have killed over it, no jealousy runs as deep - we ask... did you Fvck her ! Just cause one isn't married doesn't erase these intense emotions & the heartbreak left all over the place. 

And nothing as beautiful has been perverted as mercilessly as this act. 

Ya know a "Swinger" on here didn't care for how I plan to teach my daughter about SEX, life & her emotions.... (thread Here  .... but he felt I was open minded enough to listen to him anyway....Even though he thinks I am naive, somehow respects me .I appreciated that.  

He kinda solidified my whole point by hearing his views....He couldn't understand why I thought sex was such a Big deal....I couldn't understand why he looked at it LESS than emotional intimacy...

Here is my question... Why is it like FREE REIGN.... encouraged, experience in King, so what if you don't stay together....take 'em for a "test drive" so you can dump them earlier / sow those wild oats - or you'll regret it ! .....Then suddenly once you marry......DAMN... it's the HEIGHT of betrayal to go there with another.

*WHY ?* How do WE look at it one way - before marriage, then suddenly our attitudes are cleansed, I would think a LIVED worldview can have some influence ~ at least in how we raise our own children. 

So what is it in us humans that deems this ACT worthy of the deepest form of Betrayal & is immediately DIVORCE worthy? 

*The Swingers VIEW ....*....the SEX ACT can be used with anyone -it's NOT the height of intimacy...in HIS MIND.....emotional intimacy is what matters & what separates his wife from all other women, his vulnerability & her acceptance of him, his heart...only she KNOWS the depths of him in this way.... but in SEX, he shares this with others - as does she.... And they're Cool with that. 

Whereas those who wait for SEX (at least for committed







)... we see these 2 one in the same, we can not separate them, break them down...nor would be want to, we want the whole package, *physical intimacy IS emotional intimacy*... For us to separate this would be to cheapen it, stomp on it even....we place a very high value on the act. 

Each looks at the sex act through different lenses I suppose... I wanted a man who looked at it as romantically sacred as I did. Anything less would have been a disappointment to me. I dared dream I would find such a man. 

Now if I hit 24 yrs old & still had no propects to marry me, I would have had to adjust my thinking I suppose... I was never the Partying type looking for a GOOD time. I was the marrying type. 

When I give myself to a man, I want THAT man, I want to posses him, I am going to be more emotionally vulnerable than I've ever been in my entire life, for me... it doesn't get any deeper than that....this is my ALL....I'm not into shutting parts of who I am off with any Lover.... if he did me a test drive then decided ....."well, she wasn't good enough in bed"....I would have been destroyed ...but I knew that. And conducted myself as to avoid such usury. 

In this way I had the assurance my husband genuinely LOVED me... He married me for so much more than just my talents in bed... Which made ME want to give him the world....to be loved like that - is very precious...probably RARE. I married him when he worked in a Grocery store... they say Men marry for Sex.... and women marry for $$....

Both of us can say... we married for












> Sure things are going to change over time in your relationship, sex included, and no one has a really good crystal ball. But at the very least, in *a month of premarital sex* you can figure out if you are utterly and completely incompatible before the rings go on.


 This is not love centered, it's Fvck centered. Heck if you was my BF you would have dumped me - I had such a rigid hymen the OBGYN wanted to give me surgery... he was the most patient loving man I could have asked for, I even got pregnant before he got it in. ANYONE ELSE WOULD HAVE DUMPED ME according to your one month trial test. 

Furthermore, the more a woman gets a trial run & gets dumped time & time again, cause Lover Boy didn't think she was talented enough in bed ...how does she escape feeling Men are just PIG USERS .... 

I would think some of these experiences could sway her trust in men, 1 or 2 times...we all get some heartbreak...but over & over & over, one would be very jaded. Then when she marries...the husband may reap some of that - with her feeling HE is just USING HER for sex, I've seen so many threads on here like this.... I have never felt this way in my life... but what if I had EX's who did use me, would it have left a mark on my psyche? 

Also, those who've test driven ALOT ....trying to find the perfect "sexual fit" (how high is that bar raised to satisfy)... if you can't get a good indicator of a BF/GF's enjoyment of physical pleasure without sticking it in...I'd think that was pretty odd. 

What about the comparing... .. How many with multiple partners really feel their spouse was the Best LAY .....sure some hit the Jackpot now & then... and of course you're not going to tell them the truth... My God, how insulting can you be!! 

But let's get real... Far too many women have been dumped by an uncommitting lover....where they gave sexually to win these men who they were head over heels for...his hands & his lover style forever embedded ... 

This memory baggage stays with some... 

This can create trouble later on with all the Facebook debacle of old lovers resurfacing, an EX having struggles...memories flooding back....this includes the bedroom, all the places they did it.. I just think it a lessor evil if the SEXUAL was left out of these relationships. Hold the penis for genuine trusted commitment. Doesn't mean you can't unbutton the pants though. 

I am not judging anyone, after all WE enjoy a little soft Porn....So to others I say ... Live & let live... 

But the pendulum has swung so far the other direction that anyone who chooses to wait for committed Love or marriage ...is looked upon as pretty freaky these days and this.... saddens me.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

I agree with those who have advocated looking behind the reasons for a person being what they are. Is that person a virgin because they truly believe in waiting for the right person or because they have a negative view of sex? Does that person have a lot of experience because they are very sexual and had some false starts trying to establish a long term relationship or because they are insecure having sex only to "get love"? I don't think it's cut and dry. I think whatever your preference is you should invest time in understanding your prospective partners views on sex before comitting to them. 

Sometimes I think we should put as much into getting married as we do getting divorced. Hiring lawyers, private investigators, spelling out expectations in finite detail etc.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> He kinda solidified my whole point by hearing his views....He couldn't understand why I thought sex was such a Big deal....I couldn't understand why he looked at it LESS than emotional intimacy...


Sex doesn't magically become more or less intimate because of the rings on your finger. 

You want to know the definition of a cruel irony? It's when your fiancee tells you that waiting for sex until marriage is the price of admission and proof of your worthiness as a spouse. You're young, naive, and don't know the unknown unknowns that should have you asking lots of questions about her sexuality hiding behind that test.

7 days into your honeymoon you've figured out that you two will _forever_ be hopelessly mismatched in the bedroom. But because you're the kind of guy who would wait for sex when asked, you're also not the kind to dump your new bride over the problem. 

If that isn't about love, commitment, and respect, I don't know what is.

If you want to elevate the idea of chastity above my reality, I only wish you had been in my bedroom this weekend for the latest round in a seemingly never ending series of arguments and hurt feelings. 

If both you and your partner value chastity before marriage, knock yourself out. I don't begrudge you the choice you made, and it makes ME sad to have my experience marginalized away as ungodlike, depraved, immature, or immoral. I did the "right thing". I continue to do the "right thing". And hardly a day goes by that I don't pay the price.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Virgins are definitely more attractive as long term partners, wife material. So if you can snag one after having fun, good for you. Personally though, a woman with much experience is worthy of a quick shag and a goodbye. And don't go near single moms if you're under 30.


Well that's strange, because I got it all wrong and yet we are still together 25 years later and still going at it like bunnies. Slightly more rickety bunnies but nevertheless


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

Originally Posted by BjornFree 
Virgins are definitely more attractive as long term partners, wife material. So if you can snag one after having fun, good for you. Personally though, a woman with much experience is worthy of a quick shag and a goodbye. And don't go near single moms if you're under 30.


What a vile and worthless comment. 
Regardless of their number of sexual partners, women are not pieces of meat that you can use and dispose whenever you please.


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## 40isthenew20 (Jul 12, 2012)

I'm kind of old fashioned and would not marry someone who banged the whole block. My wife was very vanilla & inexperienced in bed and I could tell from our first time that she was not a virgin, but a 'good girl,' if you will. 

She admitted to a handful of prior loads from exes but even if she downplayed it somewhat, her actions spoke louder than words. She was very inexperienced compared to some of the women I was with at the time and that was a huge selling point to me in terms of wanting something more than dating. 

You get what you pay for so I can't complain that she is vanilla most of the time now almost 20 years later. But she has moments of 'porn star-type' banging in her when she's willing to do so and has a few drinks. 

I wouldn't trade it for the world and if she was loose when we met, I woud always be thinking that she wants more than one.


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

My wife was a virgin when we married (although only just - we did have a hard time with it, and pushed some boundaries) - I was not, although my number wasn't all that high.

First sex on the wedding night, and within the first week of honeymoon ad progressed from 'good' to 'great' - and has had a generally upward trend since!

I knew my wife was a sensual and sexually interested (and interesting) person, but because of her (our) religious beliefs, she was adamant she wanted to be a virgin until she was married -and I respected that. But I also knew she was really looking forward to not being a virgin, and exploring a great many possibilities. She's up for pretty much anything that involves just the two of us.

With the research we've done, and the practice we have together, I don't think there's much anyone else would be able to teach us, if we did have other partners.

We're just great together


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Cletus said*: Sex doesn't magically become more or less intimate because of the rings on your finger.
> 
> You want to know the definition of a cruel irony? It's when your fiancee tells you that waiting for sex until marriage is the price of admission and proof of your worthiness as a spouse. You're young, naive, and don't know the unknown unknowns that should have you asking lots of questions about her sexuality hiding behind that test.
> 
> ...


Cletus, Your reality is something I don't miss on this forum at all...I do not at all look upon you in the way you may be thinking ... Oh my goodness NO... if anything, after this last post, you are too SAINTLY... and you should have cared more about yourself & your sexual needs 20 yrs ago..... 

Can I ask you this... was the signs there *BEFORE YOU MARRIED*? she DIDN't want touched AT ALL ~ nothing, she expected you to act like a perfect pure gentleman and just wait...while she remained as pure as the driven snow? How long did you date ?

I'm *never* for that much restraint, anyone who even possesses THAT IS bonafide LOW DRIVE ...that is what I would tell any man ......and if they manage to put it down completely (lets say for religious reasons).... they may end of severly repressed & need therapy later on (seen those cases too).... Many Christians would disagree with me...but I wouldn't care, because it is NOT realistic at all....in this way I agree with you. 

I've gotten very emotional reading some of the stories poured out on TAM in near sexless marriages....my disdain for the cold rejecting heartless spouse is so strong, I want to lash out , I've had to tone my replies down even.....anyone who repeatedly rejects in my opinion, is basically soulless, I can't think of anything more demeaning & a slice to the







, it is infact spitting on the marriage vows. 

I would not have been able to deal with what you have... I wouldn't have lasted 6 months ...I would be reduced to a resentment monster if I stayed in such a marriage. 

Your reality should never be, in my opinion. Nor would I judge anyone who divorced that..I'd encourage them to get out !!! People don't get married to be Monks. 

Happening pleasurable sexual intimacy is a part of a healthy marriage. 

You likely missed the ending of my 1st post on this thread >>>




> Do I feel it is* risky* to marry a VIRGIN... I DO... if a woman is so closed off , uses her religious beliefs to shame you for lusting, if she doesn't CRAVE your touch & want to be touched... if it is not a struggle for her to contain her LUST & passion, I would tell any man to RUN LIKE HELL & not look back......she is low drive & he may feel like he is in a Prison after the vows, every man should know if his future bride can orgasm & love it ....if they want to wait... I worry about this with our sons, they are not the Playboy type ~ they are like their dad, they believe in waiting for Love.
> 
> I don't want them to suffer some of the fates I have read on this very forum. It would kill me as a Mother to see them go through that. One of my prayers - a very horny wife for all my dear sons ~ and faithful too.


I don't know your story Cletus (have to take the time & check out your threads)... if your wife has a severe case of Repression, LOW DRIVE or she has medical issues... I am assuming LOW DRIVE... that is overwhelmingly the most common issue - being married to a High driver....and yes, the mismatch is HELL.....other than resentment issues in a marriage where the wife no longer wants to be intimate & has built an unpenatratable emotional wall.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MaritimeGuy said:


> *I agree with those who have advocated looking behind the reasons for a person being what they are.* Is that person a virgin because they truly believe in waiting for the right person or because they have a negative view of sex?
> 
> Does that person have a lot of experience because they are very sexual and had some false starts trying to establish a long term relationship or because they are insecure having sex only to "get love"?
> 
> I don't think it's cut and dry. I think whatever your preference is you should invest time in understanding your prospective partners views on sex before committing to them.


 I have a great appreciation for this particular post :smthumbup: as to say we can't all be put into finely wrapped boxes on these things.... 

Everyone on this thread is speaking out of their own personal experience...what worked for some could be an utter disaster for another as we see in Cletus's story....

To take that time & learn/share with each other what has shaped our individual *sexual worldviews*, the WHY's /experiences behind it all....how we feel about LUST, porn, masterbation, some fantasy talk, our expectations in the marital bedroom...all of this, how utterly important. 

*****************************************************

Yrs ago......I was among a small group of the ladies talking about the premarital...a Preachers Daughter, she shared how her & husband waited till their Wedding for their 1st kiss.







.. My jaw hit the floor... I couldn't help myself, I had to make a big hoopla about that... I was like..."Really...







& went on how I'd never in this world be able to do that - I'd have broke down in the 1st couple weeks...... I mean that is sweet & all (I suppose)... but to me, that would zap all the FUN, anticipation & passion out of even having a Boyfriend !! 

They had a couple little girls, she seemed very happy... Who knows...so there are a few who toe it further than some of us could even imagine....and are OK after the vows..

That was the most conservative dating story I ever heard & knew of the actual couple....I do believe she was speaking the truth. I couldn't see those 2 hanging off the chandeliers though.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Rags said:


> My wife was a virgin when we married (although only just - we did have a hard time with it, and pushed some boundaries) - I was not, although my number wasn't all that high.
> 
> First sex on the wedding night, and within the first week of honeymoon ad progressed from 'good' to 'great' - and has had a generally upward trend since!
> 
> ...


Your story is similar to ours.
She was adamant that she wanted to stay a virgin until marriage for a number of reasons. I respected that, we did push some boundaries but most of all we openly discussed sex. Even her sexual fantasies . I knew she was a romantic at heart and a very sensual woman.
Honeymoon night sex was impossible. But when we reached our honeymoon destination, we had nonstop sex. Sex in the shower , sex on the beach , just uninhibited sex.
Since then it has never stopped!
I don't think that her being a virgin made it any better. What mattered to me was that she didn't have any hang ups over sex, and I realized that by our conversations, and the way her body responded to me.
I really do feel sorry for some men here on TAM because of their bad , horrible , cruel experiences.
I still think that virginity is an overrated thing however, if persons decide to make a conscious decision not to have sex before marriage,then we have no right trying to cast aspersions at them. What is important is the reasons why, and their overall attitude towards sex.
That alone determines if they are sexually compatible.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Memento said:


> Originally Posted by BjornFree
> Virgins are definitely more attractive as long term partners, wife material. So if you can snag one after having fun, good for you. Personally though, a woman with much experience is worthy of a quick shag and a goodbye. And don't go near single moms if you're under 30.
> 
> 
> ...


Didn't you see the part where I said it was my personal view. And madam let me clear the air a bit. I have not bedded any woman who did not want to go to bed with me. Nor did I make promises to any woman save my lady wife. 

Where in my post did I say that women are worthless pieces of meat? 

Teenage mothers and young single mothers show a lack of maturity and understanding of the consequences. Not many men are willing to raise another man's child and I fall under this category. Over thirty and I can believe that marriages and relationships fail and therefore marrying a single mother is definitely not a bad idea. How does that make me vile? 

I would be very uncomfortable proposing or even contemplating marriage with a woman of vast experience if I were 30 or thereabouts. But that's just me. Some men wouldn't mind marrying the town bike, good for them. But I am not that man.

Or do you mean to tell me that a man has to propose marriage to any and every woman with whom he has a sexual relationship. Did you want to marry all of your ex lovers? Sorry but my comment was neither vile or worthless, in fact it is the best advice I could give a young man along with telling him about the consequences of unprotected sex and that he had to do right by the child(if it led to that) and nobody else. not his baby's mother. 

Long ago I learnt that women wanted guilt free sex without consequence. And I gave it to them, I promised them nothing more. When I felt that it was time for me to put down roots and start a family I went into the dating game with the express desire of getting married. If that makes me vile so be it. Besides its my view and I am not asking you to endorse it so you can keep your criticisms to yourself and if you're projecting your anger at being used by someone and disposed of, sorry but I'm not going to be your little punching bag so stop. Anybody else who has a problem with it can also do the same.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> Well that's strange, because I got it all wrong and yet we are still together 25 years later and still going at it like bunnies. Slightly more rickety bunnies but nevertheless


Wysh, please read the comment again. I said a woman with a lack of experience(not necessarily a virgin) is far more attractive as a wife *in my eyes*. I am also quite confident about my skills as a lover and was pretty sure I could elicit the response I needed from any woman I took to bed regardless of her being a virgin or not.When did I ever bring you or your wife into the picture? Btw if its a compliment you're looking for here you go, I'm glad you and your wife are still going at it like bunny rabbits. Well I can't say that I am what I was 30 years ago but we have a comfortable and thoroughly enjoyable sex life. 

We're different people with our own preferences. I just stated mine , didn't feel the need to comment on what others preferred.


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## needyForHelp (Aug 8, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> So what is your experience?
> Did you marry a virgin? Or someone with experience?
> And would you say you are sexually satisfied? Or is it anything but?


Well I did marry a virgin, and not just virgin but a girl who have always been told that she should never have sex ...... and everything bad about it, and was trained that a woman does the sex, only to give pleasure to her husband, and there is nothing in sex for a woman.

And man I can tell, its a HELL, I love my wife and so does she, she is perfect in every other aspect, but when it comes to sex, its a nightmare and horrible, we are married for 4 years and I am not just unsatisfied rather pissed and feel like becoming a mentally sick. 

I had a girlfriend who was virgin but had a very nice relationship we could satisfy and enjoy each other in bed. And I also had a non-virgin girlfriend and she was awesome in bed but totally ****ed up during the day. 

So I think its not only marrying a virgin or non-virgin its all about the mentality, grownup and liking and disliking of sex. Everyone is virgin at some point and then with the time they either like it or don't.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *BjornFree said*: Long ago I learnt that women wanted guilt free sex without consequence. And I gave it to them, I promised them nothing more.


This sums up the  casual sex lifestyle nicely. 

HOW does a man know this?.... Is there enough open talk between the 2 of you that you KNEW she truly could care less - if she ever seen your face again? I'd love to know how a conversation like this goes - or it's just an *assumed* thing. 

If she thinks you are







enough to have random sex with - just how do you know her heart might not be hoping for a little more? I am not pointing fingers, it's just a question, I tend to feel the woman has more of a responsibility in who she allows in her gates -if you will ...because she is the one who could end up pregnant & alone. 

I would think most women desire the relationship strings, even if they play COY about it or low key (as to not come off pushy or needy)..... but maybe I am all wet !


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

"Personally though, a woman with much experience is worthy of a quick shag and a goodbye. And don't go near single moms if you're under 30."

Dear commentators, what are your personal thoughts about this comment? Is it acceptable to have an utilitarian view of women? Is a woman value determined by the amount of sex they can provide? Or its quality? Or even the number of sexual partners?

Personally, I find this comment symptomatic of a deeply disturbed and out of touch person.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Memento said:


> "Personally though, a woman with much experience is worthy of a quick shag and a goodbye. And don't go near single moms if you're under 30."
> 
> Dear commentators, what are your personal thoughts about this comment? Is it acceptable to have an utilitarian view of women? Is a woman value determined by the amount of sex they can provide? Or its quality? Or even the number of sexual partners?
> 
> Personally, I find this comment symptomatic of a deeply disturbed and out of touch person.


I'd say I'm glad my brother-in-law didn't feel this way when he married my sister. And, my other sister is dating a young man now...and she is a single mom. I think it's stupid to assume that single moms are a poor choice for marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

I'm also glad my Husband saw beyond me being not being a virgin and being a single mom. I wasn't without some issues, but I appriecate the fact that he saw me for who I am rather than judging me for those things.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

TrustInUs said:


> I'm also glad my Husband saw beyond me being not being a virgin and being a single mom. I wasn't without some issues, but I appriecate the fact that he saw me for who I am rather than judging me for those things.


This is exactly what I'm saying. If you were to group all the men into a room and ask them if they'd want to have no strings attached sex with a hot single mom, I'm certain that at least 95% of the men are going to raise their hands. but if you were to ask the men to have a LTR with the hot single mom, I wager more than half of those hands would drop. 

And even the ones that didn't drop their hands would probably be willing to have a short term thing and then dump the single mom without ceremony, now this is what a scumbag would do. I hope you got the difference. Just because some guy isn't willing to tangle with a single mom, does that make him a disgusting pig?

Age is also a factor. Now if you're in your late 30's or 40's or 50's its quite understandable that you have a child from your previous relationship. And men, especially the older ones wouldn't mind marrying them.

I'm talking about single mothers in their teens and early 20's. To most young men that would spell trouble. Think about it why would a 20 year old guy want to have a relationship with a 20 year old girl who's been with all his mates and has a child to boot when he sees other 20 year old women exhibiting far more self restraint? 

As I said previously, some men are able to handle this but not many. Statistically, would you say that there are more men, who ,like you husband were willing to have a relationship with you or are there more men like me who wouldn't want to have a relationship with single mums?


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Well...you didn't say "in my eyes," your original quote was a blanket statement...let me requote it again
> 
> 
> 
> A lack of "imo" is guaranteed to rile people up. This statement also does seem to promote the "women are ****s, men are studs" mentality, but I digress.





> *Personally* though, a woman with much experience is worthy of a quick shag and a goodbye. And don't go near single moms if you're under 30.


That is as good as an "imo". People, in their haste to make corrections overlook certain words.



> This statement also does seem to promote the "women are ****s, men are studs" mentality, but I digress.


Physiologically speaking, men are the "conquerors". The same reason a penis is shaped to penetrate a vagina and not the other way round. And women implicitly know that they are decreasing their own value by having sex with too many partners, which is why they go through the whole process of rationalizing why they need to sleep with the guy. This double standard has existed since eons. Politically its wrong and I agree but this is how our species survives and propagates.

And please don't tell me women are not interested in sex. They are. The consequences for having sex are much more serious for women and you know this too. And to pursue a relationship with a young girl who is very promiscuous is a risky gamble that some men aren't willing to take. I hope that I've cleared it up for you and the others.


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

You're right I probably was at the bottom of the barrel in being considered wife material I had a child in my early twenties and my H had a child as well so I guess that's why he married me. 

Not every single mom was promiscuous. I was the classic textbook case, fell in love with someone I had known since I was 10. We talked about marriage well before I even became pregnant and after being together almost two years. I had the baby, things changed, he cheated, and I remained a single mom. It taught me a huge lesson but I grew up, got a degree got a better job and moved on. I was in my late twenties by the time I married.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Memento said:


> "Personally though, a woman with much experience is worthy of a quick shag and a goodbye. And don't go near single moms if you're under 30."
> 
> Dear commentators, what are your personal thoughts about this comment? Is it acceptable to have an utilitarian view of women? Is a woman value determined by the amount of sex they can provide? Or its quality? Or even the number of sexual partners?



My dear lady, whether you accept my views or not, you're not going to change them. And you're free to think of me any way you want to. 

Turning the tables on you here, would you have a relationship with a man who begs for a living and is unwilling to take on any other job and relies on you to take complete care of all his needs? Would you invest your child's future in a man who has 0 euros to his name? Would you be attracted to such a man? I mean, he's a kindhearted man and all but its just that he's too lazy to get a job and has no ambition or desire to earn money.
Its not all that bad right? Inside he's such a jewel.

Its easy to call a man superficial because he states his preference and some women find that they're not capable of meeting his expectations. But do I call you superficial because you're not willing to see the good inside the kind of man I mentioned above?




> Personally, I find this comment symptomatic of a deeply disturbed and out of touch person.


Its all good, you're entitled to your opinion. And honestly I have to muster the will to give sh!t about what you think of me. 
But there is a difference between thinking about it and making your thoughts known, especially when those thoughts are disrespectful.

1. Treat others on the forum with dignity and respect.'

That's the first rule of this forum. I hope, for your own good, you realize what that means.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> My dear lady, whether you accept my views or not, you're not going to change them. And you're free to think of me any way you want to.
> 
> Turning the tables on you here, would you have a relationship with a man who begs for a living and is unwilling to take on any other job and relies on you to take complete care of all his needs? Would you invest your child's future in a man who has 0 euros to his name? Would you be attracted to such a man? I mean, he's a kindhearted man and all but its just that he's too lazy to get a job and has no ambition or desire to earn money.
> Its not all that bad right? Inside he's such a jewel.
> ...



In order for someone to be respected, they have to be respectful. And you "sir", have not earned my respect. Your words and line of thought are completely disrespectful towards women.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

TrustInUs said:


> You're right I probably was at the bottom of the barrel in being considered wife material I had a child in my early twenties and my H had a child as well so I guess that's why he married me.
> 
> Not every single mom was promiscuous. I was the classic textbook case, fell in love with someone I had known since I was 10. We talked about marriage well before I even became pregnant. I had the baby, things changed, he cheated, and I remained a single mom. It taught me a huge lesson but I grew up, got a degree got a better job and moved on. I was in my late twenties by the time I married.


TIU.

I'm not judging you and I have no cause to do that. I think the problem with a lot of women who read my posts was that the subject of the matter hit too close for comfort thus preventing them from seeing it objectively. Things happen for a reason and you're better off now.

When I met my wife she was 24 and she made it crystal clear that we would not be having unprotected sex till I said I do. She knew what she wanted and was not afraid to ask for it, that only served to increase my attraction for her. She wasn't a virgin either.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Memento said:


> In order for someone to be respected, they have to be respectful. And you "sir", have not earned my respect. Your words and line of thought are completely disrespectful towards women.


Regardless of whether I've earned your respect or not, ensure that you don't disrespect me in any way. Have I indulged in the childish behavior of name calling which you have done? My words and line of thought maybe disrespectful towards women but I have not singled you out among them and called you a disturbed person out of touch with reality, in other words a delusional nutcase. 

I say this only to warn you that you could end up getting banned.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I personally don't agree with the *double standard* attitude at all...Our 1st 3 sons feel it is very wrong as well, hypocritical. 

But how & what types women continue to fall for proves they overlook it every day / everywhere....how often do women turn a blind eye to how many sexual partners/ notches a man has under HIS







belt ?? It even appears to raise HIS sex rank. 

Women are attracted to Confidence (those guys HAVE it), $$$, and turnin' up the charm...that "presence" going on that makes them weak at the knees. 

I really don't see this has chance in hell of changing -unless women stop sleeping with Players....and when they do.... PLAYERS will adjust their behavior. Instead we are MAKING more Players every day - so men can GET laid ... and as unfortunate as it is..it's a booming business ~ because it works ! 

Forums / books / articles on overload devoted to it >>

 The Attraction Forums | The Mystery Method: How to Get Beautiful Women Into Bed


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Regardless of whether I've earned your respect or not, ensure that you don't disrespect me in any way. Have I indulged in the childish behavior of name calling which you have done? My words and line of thought maybe disrespectful towards women but I have not singled you out among them and called you a disturbed person out of touch with reality, in other words a delusional nutcase.
> 
> I say this only to warn you that you could end up getting banned.


Dont worry! If I get banned I won't get sad about it


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Memento said:


> Dont worry! If I get banned I won't get sad about it


Oh no but I will. this place has a dearth of verbal pugilists and I rather enjoy doing it so long as you don't get all personal about it under which circumstance powers beyond me swoop down with their ban hammers.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

jaquen said:


> We had no sex before marriage.
> 
> We didn't shack up before marriage.
> 
> ...


Well, I will just put my own case out there as a counter to this view. We married for 1, dating for 8 and living together for 7. And f0ck like rabbits pretty much.

I was not a virgin or close it. She was not a virgin or close to it. Our sexual pasts were similar enough. Neither one had a crazy high number. We dated with regular sex for two years, then lived together for another six before getting married. We were both each others best lovers.

So it was way more than a test drive. More like a lease-to-buy approach. If, god forbid, I ever had to date and find a new wife again I would take the same approach. Probably I'd be a little more optimized about it. Maybe 1 year of dating and 2 years of cohabitation before the engagement. But definitely long enough to wait out the inevitable loss of hormones and excitement you get for free at the beginning of a relationship. 

Basically the sexual criteria I would use are like this.

1) The other person should have a similar sexual past. Meaning similar numbers, similar types of sexual experiences and so on. If one person vastly outranks the other in sexual experience it is a likely source of problems. I include sexual abuse as sexual experience. If you were sexually abused then marry someone else who was sexually abused.
2) The other person should be the best lover you have had.
3) You should be the best lover the other person has had.
4) The penis and the vagina should feel good together. Not to be taken lightly.
5) Sex drives should be compatible. If you are a once a day person, then you don't want to be with a once a week person.
6) Any pre-existing sexual interests fantasies or fetishes should be on the table and evaluated for compatibility before marriage, or really even cohab. Let's include use of porn in here as well.

Ok now here is my point. If you are both virgins then you have criteria 1, 2, and 3 working in your favor for *free*. On the other hand if you try before you buy you have the *opportunity* to screen for all 6, with nothing for free. But if you try before you before you buy and assume that problem number 4 is going to be solved by a doctors appt at some point in the future, or you assume that number 5 is going to work itself out someday, then you have just wasted the opportunity. In fact you are at a disadvantage relative to two virgins.

So if you are not following the virgin approach you have to be more aggressive in kicking people out of your bed who are not suitable marriage material based on the six criteria above. This is where I think most people go wrong.


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> TIU.
> 
> I'm not judging you and I have no cause to do that. I think the problem with a lot of women who read my posts was that the subject of the matter hit too close for comfort thus preventing them from seeing it objectively. Things happen for a reason and you're better off now.


Agreed. And I probably did take it too personal for just the reason you state. But it is hard to ignore that you are saying that women like me ( or any woman really) are only good to get laid. I won't ever call my child, specifically, a mistake, but I acknowledge that I made mistakes in my dating life. My point was that not every single mom had all the "mates" as you insinuated in your earlier post.


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## Terry_CO (Oct 23, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> So, after reading several threads about sex and all that good stuff on this site, I am curious.
> 
> Read several threads about marrying virgins, and SO that you...test drived.
> And I can't find a pattern in it.
> ...


Marry a virgin? :rofl: Hardly. My wife had had sexual partners in the triple digits at the time we met. My number, on the other hand, was single digits 

This still bothers me but I'm working on it. The good part is that she is far better in bed than my first wife, who was more of a dead fish in that department. My wife knows and is expert at using Kegels (the muscle motions). I didn't know what they were until she introduced me to them  Amazing! :smthumbup:


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

TrustInUs said:


> Agreed. And I probably did take it too personal for just the reason you state. But it is hard to ignore that you are saying that *women like me ( or any woman really) are only good to get laid*. I won't ever call my child, specifically, a mistake, but I acknowledge that I made mistakes in my dating life. My point was that not every single mom had all the "mates" as you insinuated in your earlier post.


Nothing changes this attitude faster than holding your newborn daughter in your arms. 

I have to ask, Bjorn, do you have any daughters?


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Terry_CO said:


> My wife knows and is expert at using Kegels (the muscle motions). I didn't know what they were until she introduced me to them  Amazing! :smthumbup:


But my wife does this too and she's only ever been with me. She didn't need experience to learn how to pinch her abdominal floor. Any woman far from a bathroom knows how to do that.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

TrustInUs said:


> Agreed. And I probably did take it too personal for just the reason you state. But it is hard to ignore that you are saying that women like me ( or any woman really) are only good to get laid. I won't ever call my child, specifically, a mistake, but I acknowledge that I made mistakes in my dating life. My point was that not every single mom had all the "mates" as you insinuated in your earlier post.


Hello when did I say that? 

I said I would probably have a short term, purely sexual relationship with the woman. Since when did "I" become all the rest of the men in the world... I mean, if you and all the rest of the women in the world thought so I would have no problem with that, but alas.

My point is that men. well some of the insecure ones like me, when they find out that they're partner has had a slightly risque past involving orgies and bunga bunga parties with a disgraced italian premier , they tend to get insecure feelings which would inevitably lead to a serious case of ED. 

So there you have it, the real reason is because men(I model them after myself, so people are free to disagree) are very insecure about dating women who've ridden the **** carousel one time too many because the poor sods will be assailed with thoughts of the other poor(lucky) sods who have poked the woman next to them without having to move heaven and earth just so they have the chance. Its the classic "nice"(I hate this word) guy relationship.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

sandc said:


> Nothing changes this attitude faster than holding your newborn daughter in your arms.
> 
> I have to ask, Bjorn, do you have any daughters?


Yes, one. She's nineteen and I'm starting to dread the comments I'm going to get now.


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## Terry_CO (Oct 23, 2012)

sandc said:


> But my wife does this too and she's only ever been with me. She didn't need experience to learn how to pinch her abdominal floor. Any woman far from a bathroom knows how to do that.


If that was the case my first wife would also have been able to do them, and she wasn't even aware of them. The difference? Experience


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Yes, one. She's nineteen and I'm starting to dread the comments I'm going to get now.


Lets hope she doesn't find someone like you and becomes just a "shag".


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Memento said:


> Lets hope she doesn't find someone like you and becomes just a "shag".


Oh she's definitely a lot smarter than the average girl so don't you worry.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

My husband has 12 sexual partners in the past. I had one before him. His sexual past doesn't bother me the slightest. 
And people, if you cant live with that type information, don't ask. Ignorance is bliss, sometimes.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Terry_CO said:


> If that was the case my first wife would also have been able to do them, and she wasn't even aware of them. The difference? Experience


I think your first wife must have been unaware of kegels, but it probably isn't related to experience though. I have married friends who have had multiple partners and these women still don't know about kegel exercises. And then there are women like my mom who have had only one partner and they know about kegels. The other day I caught my mother talking to my sister-in-law about kegel exercises and I was shocked. My mom! I wanted to plug my ears and say "no, I can't hearrr you!" :rofl:


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Oh she's definitely a lot smarter than the average girl so don't you worry.


You'd be surprised with the amount of extremely smart and successful girls I know that have engaged in casual sex.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Terry_CO said:


> If that was the case my first wife would also have been able to do them, and she wasn't even aware of them. The difference? Experience


Or a good gynaecologist. I was told the importance of kegels when I was pregnant.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

TrustInUs said:


> Agreed. And I probably did take it too personal for just the reason you state.


 I think every one of us take some of this stuff personal... The "Sexual history" threads have proven to be some of the touchiest on TAM ... 

I could take offense to this >>


Terry_CO said:


> Marry a virgin? :rofl: Hardly.


 This is also mocking....laughing at those who choose to wait ....why the :rofl: - because he feels they all suck in bed !! 










Although many virgins may have more inhibitions/ even be a little prudish - they aren't all & they too can grow into quite the Seductress .....and neither does a single Mom = a woman that would not make a hell of a good faithful wife. 

2 of my GF's were single moms, yes, they made a mistake with BUM men , one of those sons was like our 7th child, he calls me Mom and my husband is the closest thing he had to a Father, we love him dearly.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> Or a good gynaecologist. I was told the importance of kegels when I was pregnant.


:iagree:

Me too. I knew about kegels back in my early 20s when I started getting regular ob/gyn checkups. Even virgins know about them. There's a thread on the first or second page of this particular forum from a virgin whose virgin fiance told her about them. Google is their friend.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Memento said:


> You'd be surprised with the amount of extremely smart and successful girls I know that have engaged in casual sex.


That, frankly, is not my problem. She's smart enough to know the consequences and she's smart enough not to get herself into a fix. And I think I know my daughter more than you do.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> That, frankly, is not my problem. She's smart enough to know the consequences and she's smart enough not to get herself into a fix. And I think I know my daughter more than you do.


I never said that I did.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Was a virgin when we married. Wife wasnt. Somewhat misled as to the extent of not a virgin. But anyway..

Wife has claimed plenty of times that her being my one and only is special and she appreciates it.

Does it actually feel that way? No. Hell no.

Just makes me regret being introverted and shy. Most likely could have had some fun experiences with some other women. Ehhh bummer.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Memento said:


> My husband has 12 sexual partners in the past. I had one before him. His sexual past doesn't bother me the slightest.
> And people, if you cant live with that type information, don't ask. Ignorance is bliss, sometimes.


So what would have happened if you had 12 and he had one before you? Can you honestly say that it wouldn't have bothered him even the slightest bit. 

I would rather start a relationship with all the cards on the table or not at all. But hey that's just me. I'd take an honest and lousy relationship any day over a blissful one that's built upon half truths and concealed pasts. But I belong to the category of men who can't live with that type of information and hence choose to not pursue the relationship any further rather than not asking, that is just cowardly.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Although many virgins may have more inhibitions/ even be a little prudish - they aren't all & they too can grow into quite the Seductress .....and neither does a single Mom = a woman that would not make a hell of a good faithful wife.


Its actually easy to spot the prudes from the naughty ones. You just talk about sex in third person and watch them blush. I think the shy ones are the best, because they'll surprise you.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> That, frankly, is not my problem. She's smart enough to know the consequences and she's smart enough not to get herself into a fix. And I think I know my daughter more than you do.


Funny, that's what my dad said about my sisters and me... Only ⅓ of his daughters never got pregnant before marriage. ³/3 if his daughters were smart enough to not get into those situations. It happens, even with precautions.And single parenthood happens, even when the couple intends to stay together/marry. You can't rely on the "I know my daughter" or "she's smart enough to know..." It happens, even to the smart ones.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coupdegrace (Oct 15, 2012)

east2west said:


> 1) The other person should have a similar sexual past. Meaning similar numbers, similar types of sexual experiences and so on. If one person vastly outranks the other in sexual experience it is a likely source of problems. I include sexual abuse as sexual experience. If you were sexually abused then marry someone else who was sexually abused.
> 2) The other person should be the best lover you have had.
> 3) You should be the best lover the other person has had.
> 4) The penis and the vagina should feel good together. Not to be taken lightly.
> ...


In a perfect world... In the REAL world, you'll be lucky to find someone you're compatible with, that won't frown upon your interests and hobbies, sex notwithstanding.

As for my story, I married a virgin, an Asian virgin with old-fashioned, prude parents. I was her first actual boyfriend, and I taught her pretty much everything, even how to kiss. We dated for about 10 years, and have been married for almost 3. I had a significant amount of sexual experience (nothing insane), while she had none. While we dated, I got her interested in sexual activity (mostly oral) so our sexual clocks seemed to be in sync. 

When we were younger, we would have "Two-a-days," but as we got older, our sexual appetites started to somewhat drift. Currently, I like some sort of sexual activity every other day (doesn't have to be intercourse), while she prefers once a week, if that. When we do have sex, it's all good, I'd just like it more often. Fortunately for me, she knows I'm horny every other day, so she will often give me BJ's and HJ's to curb my appetite.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> ³/3 if his daughters were smart enough to not get into those situations.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Quite clearly 2/3 were not smart enough. Now I don't know if my daughter would indeed become a single mother but I do know that she'll do right by the child, no doubt like your sisters are doing. But I also know that her desirability will drop, this I speak not as a parent but as a man.

Tell me why there would be such stigma attached to single mothers if everyone was okay with it? If it didn't make a difference in the lives of men, you wouldn't see these women struggling. I still can't believe that all you ladies are seeing my posts as direct attacks against the female species. I'm just giving you the ground realities as objectively as possible.

Why would most men hesitate to pursue the long term relationships with women who're in double and triple figures if it was normal? In a perfect world this would not have been a problem at all. But it is a problem and you ladies are becoming to emotional about it because you perceive my statements as sexist. All I'm trying to do, fool that I am, is provide you with logical reasons as to the why and the how of it.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> So what would have happened if you had 12 and he had one before you? Can you honestly say that it wouldn't have bothered him even the slightest bit.
> 
> I would rather start a relationship with all the cards on the table or not at all. But hey that's just me. I'd take an honest and lousy relationship any day over a blissful one that's built upon half truths and concealed pasts. But I belong to the category of men who can't live with that type of information and hence choose to not pursue the relationship any further rather than not asking, that is just cowardly.


His previous wife was borderline promiscuous, when he met her. And he still married her. My guess is, as long she wasnt like that after they were together, he did not mind.
I never thought about asking, because it is not important for me. Whatever he did in the past, doesnt concern me, because I was not with him. However the present and future, is a different story.
Cowardly or not, we are happily married and survive the ups and downs that every marriage undergoes.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Memento said:


> His previous wife was borderline promiscuous, when he met her. And he still married her. My guess is, as long she wasnt like that after they were together, he did not mind.
> I never thought about asking, because it is not important for me. Whatever he did in the past, doesnt concern me, because I was not with him. However the present and future, is a different story.
> Cowardly or not, we are happily married and survive the ups and downs that every marriage undergoes.


Why don't you ask him, it might be important to him? What would his reaction be if you just went up to him right now and declared that you had 13 sexual partners? Surviving the ups and downs would require establishing a pattern of honesty in every thing you do as a couple. I would rather have a wife who would say to my face that I'm the worst husband in the world than someone who would keep her feelings to herself because she's too scared to rock the boat.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Wysh, please read the comment again. I said a woman with a lack of experience(not necessarily a virgin) is far more attractive as a wife *in my eyes*. I am also quite confident about my skills as a lover and was pretty sure I could elicit the response I needed from any woman I took to bed regardless of her being a virgin or not.When did I ever bring you or your wife into the picture? Btw if its a compliment you're looking for here you go, I'm glad you and your wife are still going at it like bunny rabbits. Well I can't say that I am what I was 30 years ago but we have a comfortable and thoroughly enjoyable sex life.
> 
> We're different people with our own preferences. I just stated mine , didn't feel the need to comment on what others preferred.


And yet I do not see a statement of 'in my eyes' in your previous post below. You made a flat out definitive statement that virgins are more attractive as long term partners. For clarity it is no use relying on implied meanings.

You also said that it was ok to go out and have 'fun' with women, who knows maybe even breaking their hearts thinking you or some other man were the one and then dumping them to the curb to have a good 'shag' with the next one.
However when it comes to settling down a virgin is preferrable.

It's called hypocrisy dude!



BjornFree said:


> Virgins are definitely more attractive as long term partners, wife material. So if you can snag one after having fun, good for you. Personally though, a woman with much experience is worthy of a quick shag and a goodbye. And don't go near single moms if you're under 30.


So how did you 'decide' who to marry? You make it sound like some sort of business contract. You fall in love with who you fall in love with as far as I'm concerned. If you start defining criteria then it's not love as far as I'm concerned.

Besides which how are you going to confirm this purity or at least, lack of partners?
Can you be sure that your wife didn't have a 'chequered' past or even your daughter?


Unfortunately, even if you didn't mean it, your post came over as demeaning, insensitive, boorish and bigoted against women.


By the way I wasn't after some sort of compliment from you, I don't really need your compliments thanks.


And I am sure that you are a super sexy, studly, multi orgasmic lover. Why you felt the need to inform me of your skill I am not sure, but pleased for you.

The only reason I included the information that My wife and I go at it regularly, was to show you that it is possible to have a partner who was quite experienced and already had a child and still have a fantastic marriage.




WyshIknew said:


> Well that's strange, because I got it all wrong and yet we are still together 25 years later and still going at it like bunnies. Slightly more rickety bunnies but nevertheless


One of the highlights of my life was my eldest son stumblingly making the transition between calling me Uncle Del to Dad and very often mixing the two in one sentence.

I fully accept that you are entitled to your own thoughts and opinions, but you did not state that your original post was 'in your eyes' until you had been called out by some very good posts by other posters.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Memento said:


> You'd be surprised with the amount of extremely smart and successful girls I know that have engaged in casual sex.


I read an article not long ago that states that the more successful & intelligent women ARE having more *casual sex* and loving it and the DUMB lower class women (like myself of course ) go for the romantic Betas & want to marry young (that was all me!!)..... I don't at all deny these are the facts.

This is what our society is coming to and we wonder why MEN are caring less & less to get married.... 

 Hypergamy, Sl***s And Smart Women




BjornFree said:


> But I also know that her desirability will drop, this I speak not as a parent but as a man.
> 
> Tell me why there would be such stigma attached to single mothers if everyone was okay with it? If it didn't make a difference in the lives of men, you wouldn't see these women struggling. I still can't believe that all you ladies are seeing my posts as direct attacks against the female species. I'm just giving you the ground realities as objectively as possible.


And this article sums up your view BjornFree I assume ...Women Have Become Too Easy - AskMen


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Why don't you ask him, it might be important to him? What would his reaction be if you just went up to him right now and declared that you had 13 sexual partners? Surviving the ups and downs would require establishing a pattern of honesty in every thing you do as a couple. I would rather have a wife who would say to my face that I'm the worst husband in the world than someone who would keep her feelings to herself because she's too scared to rock the boat.


Who told you I am not honest with my husband?  How do you I don't talk about my feelings with my husband? Why do you assumed I am a conformist? As I said before, I know how many sexual partners he had and vice versa, and that is a non issue to us.:smthumbup:
I love my husband very much and he makes sure that I know that he loves me, everyday. I couldn't have asked for a better man, regardless of his past.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> 1. Treat others on the forum with dignity and respect.'
> 
> That's the first rule of this forum. I hope, for your own good, you realize what that means.
> Yes I agree with this
> ...


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Memento said:


> Who told you I am not honest with my husband?  How do you I don't talk about my feelings with my husband? Why do you assumed I am a conformist? As I said before, I know how many sexual partners he had and vice versa, and that is a non issue to us.:smthumbup:
> I love my husband very much and he makes sure that I know that he loves me, everyday. I couldn't have asked for a better man, regardless of his past.


This is the exact same reason I told you not to make assumptions dear lady. See how defensive you get when I do the same?


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> And this article sums up your view BjornFree I assume ...Women Have Become Too Easy - AskMen


That's kind of an interesting article SA. Can't speak for other men, but it was how I segregated them. Yeah Yeah i'm a hypocrite


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> This is the exact same reason I told you not to make assumptions dear lady. See how defensive you get when I do the same?


Defensive? Well, I wasnt the one who insulted women in general and single mothers, in particular. Was I?


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Memento said:


> Defensive? Well, I wasnt the one who insulted women in general and single mothers, in particular. Was I?


Well lets agree to disagree on certain issues and end it here.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Wow, I go to school and you people have a freaking comment war on this subject to some degree...



SimplyAmorous said:


> I read an article not long ago that states that the more successful & intelligent women ARE having more *casual sex* and loving it and the DUMB lower class women (like myself of course ) go for the romantic Betas & want to marry young (that was all me!!)..... I don't at all deny these are the facts.
> 
> This is what our society is coming to and we wonder why MEN are caring less & less to get married....


Had to comment on this:

I see attractive women in my classes at school. My accounting and business law classes. Really attractive girls. And even some that I would consider the 'nice' girls. 
Who do they go after? 

The guy that is always late, failing the class, and has LOSER written on his forehead. 

Yet the girls love him. 
Girls that are going on to get degrees in marketing, accounting, business, etc. Are going for the loser. 

So why do women always wonder "Where are all the nice guys?"




As for the single mothers subject, I had to comment:
I will NOT date a single mother. 
My reasons? 
Well, I am 20. A premade family is about as useful as a degree in philosophy. I don't want to build my dating schedule around your schedule, my schedule, and your kid's schedule. I don't want to pay for the baby sitter (make sh!t wages anyway...). I already know how responsible you are (except for those rare exceptions, but those are the EXCEPTIONS PEOPLE! not the norm). I don't want some little kid thinking I am daddy. I don't want to fall in love with a woman that comes with a premade family. 

Also heard some horror stories about single mothers chasing guys for child support and getting it from the guy. That isn't the father of their child. 

But that is just me. 
A 20 year old college student working at a grocery store. 
Not a 38 year old established, career and family centered recently divorced man or something. Figure it will change as I age. 

Anyway, thanks for the responses everyone!


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Middle of Everything said:


> Was a virgin when we married. Wife wasnt. Somewhat misled as to the extent of not a virgin. But anyway..
> 
> Wife has claimed plenty of times that her being my one and only is special and she appreciates it.
> 
> ...


Been there, done that, worn the T shirt.

I could have written this!

If you are anything like me you will have tried your heart out to no avail when you were younger.

But now suddenly I am relatively hot stuff. Why:scratchhead:


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> Been there, done that, worn the T shirt.
> 
> I could have written this!
> 
> ...


Its quite simple actually. The fact that you're a committed man serves to make you more attractive. When the women were younger they had age and beauty on their side, thus they had more options. Now the music has stopped, all the chairs are filled, they're scrambling for the chair that's closest, even if it means they have to shove the woman already sitting in it.

Supply and demand. That simple.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

SA's article

For all the people who think men are pigs for judging a woman based on the number of sexual partners she's had. *wears rusty old nordic helmet*


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## Another Planet (Aug 8, 2012)

I didn't read all of this thread but I just wanted to say that all I know is I am pretty sure I could never be with a virgin.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> Been there, done that, worn the T shirt.
> 
> I could have written this!
> 
> ...


So what finally did it for you?

New attitude?
New Woman/wife?

Or still toiling away in misery?


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> So what would have happened if you had 12 and he had one before you? Can you honestly say that it wouldn't have bothered him even the slightest bit.
> 
> I would rather start a relationship with all the cards on the table or not at all. But hey that's just me. I'd take an honest and lousy relationship any day over a blissful one that's built upon half truths and concealed pasts. But I belong to the category of men who can't live with that type of information and hence choose to not pursue the relationship any further rather than not asking, that is just cowardly.


BjornFree I think many people just don't appreciate your bluntness or black and white phrasing. I agree with you 100% here though. I was reading a book about relationships and one thing the Author/Doctor was professing was how important it was to be radically honest and open about your past relationships. He said he meets the most resistance with this because some many couples don't want their spouse to know their past and anytime you are refusing to be open about something in your marriage you hurt your marriage. I always find openness to be much more attractive than mystery. Unless there is mystery about future plans.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Quite clearly 2/3 were not smart enough. Now I don't know if my daughter would indeed become a single mother but I do know that she'll do right by the child, no doubt like your sisters are doing. But I also know that her desirability will drop, this I speak not as a parent but as a man.
> 
> Tell me why there would be such stigma attached to single mothers if everyone was okay with it? If it didn't make a difference in the lives of men, you wouldn't see these women struggling. I still can't believe that all you ladies are seeing my posts as direct attacks against the female species. I'm just giving you the ground realities as objectively as possible.
> 
> Why would most men hesitate to pursue the long term relationships with women who're in double and triple figures if it was normal? In a perfect world this would not have been a problem at all. But it is a problem and you ladies are becoming to emotional about it because you perceive my statements as sexist. All I'm trying to do, fool that I am, is provide you with logical reasons as to the why and the how of it.


First, regarding the 2/3... well, things happen. Birth control fails. It doesn't mean anyone wasn't "smart" about it. And, my sisters and I all agree...for us, abortion is not an option as birth control. I was one of the two who got pregnant. I had a miscarriage. I am far from dumb. I used multiple forms of birth control...and it still happened. This is why I say that, no matter how much you may say you know your daughter is smart enough to stay out of such situations... they happen.

As far as single mothers having a stigma attached to them. Honestly, I don't see that so much anymore. Maybe the ones who are sleeping around and have no clue who the father is, but over all? No, I don't think so. At least, not where I live.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> As far as single mothers having a stigma attached to them. Honestly, I don't see that so much anymore. Maybe the ones who are sleeping around and have no clue who the father is, but over all? No, I don't think so. At least, not where I live.


If there is any lingering stigma, it has no power to persuade in society any longer. 41% of children in the US are born to a single mother.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> If there is any lingering stigma, it has no power to persuade in society any longer. 41% of children in the US are born to a single mother.


Could that be misleading though? Couldn't a lot of those just be women unmarried but in committed relationships? I think statistics like that are looking at whether the women are just married or unmarried which could easily be found in medical records.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

FalconKing said:


> Could that be misleading though? Couldn't a lot of those just be women unmarried but in committed relationships? I think statistics like that are looking at whether the women are just married or unmarried which could easily be found in medical records.


83 percent of unmarried mothers were romantically involved with the father of their child at the time of birth. More than one half were living together.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

FalconKing said:


> Could that be misleading though? Couldn't a lot of those just be women unmarried but in committed relationships? I think statistics like that are looking at whether the women are just married or unmarried which could easily be found in medical records.


Still unmarried. That's the point. Single mother could be a woman who was sleeping around or someone in a committed relationship and then they broke up or even someone who WAS married but divorced. The point is they are single. That little piece of paper says they are not married.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> First, regarding the 2/3... well, things happen. Birth control fails. It doesn't mean anyone wasn't "smart" about it. And, my sisters and I all agree...for us, abortion is not an option as birth control. I was one of the two who got pregnant. I had a miscarriage. I am far from dumb. I used multiple forms of birth control...and it still happened. This is why I say that, no matter how much you may say you know your daughter is smart enough to stay out of such situations... they happen.
> 
> As far as single mothers having a stigma attached to them. Honestly, I don't see that so much anymore. Maybe the ones who are sleeping around and have no clue who the father is, but over all? No, I don't think so. At least, not where I live.


Well I wouldn't call it stigma, more of a hindrance. You'll find that most young men would avoid you if you told them that you are a single mother. Its all quite subtle, especially the way they start avoiding you..

Secondly, I meant smart as someone who knew the consequences. I think people should stop shaming sex and should start teaching young men and women about the good things and the bad things that can happen from having unprotected sex, especially for women. Because they're the ones who're going to invest time and resources if they get pregnant.

Birth control fails, which is why one has to be extra careful and honestly the number of women who have unplanned pregnancies as a result of unprotected sex far exceed the number of cases where birth control failed. Its not that I want to poke fun at single mother or think of them as lepers or something, no not at all. In fact, I appreciate that they're taking such good care of the child despite having stressful jobs and love lives. 

I just hope that more women are astute enough to realize the consequences of giving away something precious and giving it away to too many people is only going to reduce their own value. Its not a competition, it never was so trying to be equals is not the objective, having a mature and loving relationship is. And a little self restraint will go a long way in ensuring that they have a mature relationship with someone who does value them.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

BjornFree said:


> Secondly, I meant smart as someone who knew the *consequences.* I think people should stop shaming sex and should start teaching young men and women about the good things and the bad things that can happen from having unprotected sex, especially for women. Because they're the ones who're going to invest time and resources if they get pregnant.
> 
> Birth control fails, which is why one has to be extra careful and honestly the number of women who have unplanned pregnancies as a result of unprotected sex far exceed the number of cases where birth control failed. Its not that I want to poke fun at single mother or think of them as lepers or something, no not at all. In fact, I appreciate that they're taking such good care of the child despite having stressful jobs and love lives.
> 
> I just hope that more women are astute enough to realize the consequences of giving away something precious and giving it away to too many people is only going to reduce their own value. Its not a competition, it never was so trying to be equals is not the objective, having a mature and loving relationship is. And a little self restraint will go a long way in ensuring that they have a mature relationship with someone who does value them.


I feel the same as BjornFree does here :smthumbup:... we do not teach our children to feel shame over sex....







is freaking Beautiful....but there is a time & a place for such Beauty. 

Sex is not a dirty word in our home.... they see playful displays of affection between me & their father, we do not hide kisses, even a little flirting / joking ... we want them to see a healthy happiness there. We've played Scrabble together...one game, DESIRE was the 1st word, also sex, lust, arouse ended up on that board...that was a fun night! Our teen sons know they can bring anything to us...and Do... They even know Mom is on a Sex forum & think that's pretty cool .... It's not the norm in most families....so far, so good. 

We do encourage them to wait for







& commitment - we feel this is the best for their emotional well being & for their futures ...(if they can ~ we realize this is a struggle for multitudes). We also talk about raging hormones...peer pressure ....LUST, all of it. 

But most importantly...as with anything we put our hands to in life....including our bodies....*Responsibility* for our choices IS HUGE in this family....

They will be well educated on the possible *consequences* that can arise from engaging too soon and too carelessly, whether that be







's ripped open (I do feel a sexual relationship will hurt deeper), STD's, or one of these in the oven >>


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I hate to say it, but BjornFree is making comments reflective of a lot of men's feelings on the matter.

I do think we're dealing with two totally different subjects that are, bizarrely, being merged together. A single mother and a promiscuous woman are not synonymous, and I believe most men understand that.

But both, especially for younger men in their 20's and 30's, come with baggage that an unfortunately healthy amount of men will not even consider when it comes to long term relationships, marriage, and sometimes even casual sex.

The single mothers are more understandable. That comes down to the fact that most people don't want to be "saddled" with another person's child. It's an ugly way of thinking, but it's plentiful enough. As a firm believer in adoption, it strikes to the heart of me because it reinforces the very prevalent reluctance for many people to call a non-biological child their own. Sometimes it's a case of a guy being too young to take up the responsibility of helping raise a child, and sometimes it's about men, regardless of age, who can not, or will not, find it in themselves to father biologically unrelated kids. This is not to say that the single mother can't find love; obviously you can find many exceptions to the "rule", particularly the older you get. I think this is an issue more for younger men than beyond. Because there is a likelihood with older men, considering the epic divorce rate, that they too are walking around with a child or five on their arms, looking for love, and can appreciate linking up with a woman who is in the same boat. 

The promiscuous perspective is a lot more complex, but the end result is sadly the same; women who sleep around are, for many men, enjoyable in the moment, but completely unacceptable as life partners. It's the underbelly of the sexual revolution, and the empowerment of women; you can now do what men have always done! But what they don't tell you is that, ingrained in many men, is a bold sexism, and terrible double standard against women.

The double standards are unfair, but real. The "fun girl" is great, but she isn't talked about among the guys as a person of worth, a person worth investing in. She's great for kicks, but ineligible for investment. Yes, it can be that cold, that cruel, that inconsiderate. There is not a shortage of men who will, in a flash, stigmatize, marginalize, and dismiss another human being based solely off how many partners they had in their bed (or on the washing machine, or the kitchen counter, and whatever awesome places you can think of).

This is why the once promiscuous woman sometimes finds herself lying about her sexual past. Modern, western men aren't necessarily collectively looking for virgins, not at all, but women who have partners in the high double digits, and beyond, will face unfair stigma from a very large swatch of potential mates. So some women fudge, ignore, and deceive, having realized that the fun of the moment did, despite what modern thought on sex tells you, have consequences afterall.

And it is not fair. It is not fair that men get to sl*ut around, and be rewarded for it, but a woman who has enjoyed lots of sexual activity still, even in modernity, is forced to contend with her scarlet letter.

This is, of course, by no means universal; there are men who will not care. But there are enough in the pool who do that it has very real impact on the chances of promiscuous women finding a partner with whom they can be honest about the true nature of their sexual pasts, and still be taken seriously as a potential lifetime mate.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> I just hope that more women are astute enough to realize the consequences of giving away something precious and giving it away to too many people is only going to reduce their own value. Its not a competition, it never was so trying to be equals is not the objective, having a mature and loving relationship is. *And a little self restraint will go a long way in ensuring that they have a mature relationship with someone who does value them.*


^^^^^^^^^
"...Cliche to a fool, but truth to the one who seeks wisdom.."

Good observation .

However,
Both you and I know that,
Everyone's entitled to their own views,even though those views are _actually_ killing them.
Yes?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> The promiscuous perspective is a lot more complex, but the end result is sadly the same; women who sleep around are, for many men, enjoyable in the moment, but completely unacceptable as life partners.* It's the underbelly of the sexual revolution, and the empowerment of women; you can now do what men have always done! But what they don't tell you is that, ingrained in many men, is a bold sexism, and terrible double standard against women.*


That's why I respect *YOUR* posts.

Funny thing is I posted this exact,same thing here some time ago, but everyone got their knickers in a bunch.

1] There has always existed a double standard with respect to sex.
2]It's heavily stacked against women
3]It will only change when men decide to change it. Makes absolutely no sense fighting against it. 

Men don't really have 
" biological clocks," ticking.

Simple.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> That's why I respect *YOUR* posts.
> 
> Funny thing is I posted this exact,same thing here some time ago, but everyone got their knickers in a bunch.
> 
> ...


Exactly. When I read this. I was going to reply with, "Great post Jaquen! Now watch someone read that and still be offended"


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I understand why people get offended. The whole set up, though old as dirt, is glaringly hypocritical, unfair, and unjust; nobody likes a double standard. And the messenger is often the murdered. 

Nobody wants to hear that there are dark sides to female empowerment. The last couple generations of females have been raised to believe, on a larger social scale, that they can do anything a man does, and any thought that challenges this is labeled as "old fashioned", at best, and horribly sexist at worst. 

Unfortunately for the woman who enjoys indulging in multiple sex partners, that hasn't translated into true sexual liberation. So, despite the unfairness, you have a plethora of women who decided to take the traditionally male approach to sex, and enjoy the company of as many sexual partners as they wanted, only to find their male counterparts slipping easily into the skin of marriage and long term relationships, and themselves often out in the cold.

It's unfair. It's the whole "he without sin" business, where the woman is in the town square about to be stoned to death, and her lover is nowhere to be found. But it doesn't seem to die.

It does make me wonder though if men will be the ones to change it? Will we get to a point where women, on the whole, are having so much casual, "free" sex, than men won't even be able to discriminate because the virgins, and women with low numbers, are so rare as to not even factor into a realistic selection pool?


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

jaquen said:


> And it is not fair. It is not fair that men get to sl*ut around, and be rewarded for it, but a woman who has enjoyed lots of sexual activity still, even in modernity, is forced to content with her scarlet letter.


I think I can offer an explanation for this too. You see it doesn't take much for a woman to sleep with/ attract a man. All she needs to do is wear makeup, put on a red dress, go to a bar and give out all the right signals. She'll have men swarming her in no time. But she'll be picky and therefore only accept the affections of the best guy in the group. Female hypergamy.

Men on the other hand need to compete against each other to get the girl. This means they have to work extra hard on presenting the best version of themselves while actively preventing another from doing the same. Therefore you could say that the more partners a man has had, the more desirable he becomes to most women because he actively displays the fact that he is of great value. 

Now you take the equation into marriage, you have a male getting(hopefully) exclusive access to a female sacrificing his chances with other women. And the female is going to get a stable relationship to raise the child sacrificing her need for hypergamy. In the end its a great big business deal. 

Naturally men, who are competitive in nature, are not going to feel the security of being in an exclusive relationship because, one, her past indicates that she's had access to the whole reservoir and rather than be at least a little picky about it, she has had sex with a whole lot of men. This would indicate that she is a poor investment to make, genetically at least because the man will always have the fear that she could get impregnated by a man who displays higher quality thus having to bring up another man's child wasting your own resources. And this would threaten most men IMO. Two, it also gives the man a feeling that he's of lesser quality because other men who've had sex with her didn't have to deal with the after effects while the man had to promise her a stable relationship, sacrificing his freedom to pursue other women, just so he can have her for himself. This leaves a lot of men including me very dissatisfied in the balance of the whole relationship. And some men aren't willing to stay in such a relationship.

The alpha beta discussion may seem a little sore and I don't agree with most men on here who expound the theory but what one can see is that men will segregate women into two categories while dating. Sl*ts and Madonnas. Women classify men into two categories too. The Good Guy who can step up and start a family and The Bad Boy who can give her mind numbing orgasms. Alpha and Beta......again, sadly.

Does this make every woman who's slept around, a faithless wh*re that can't raise a family? NO. Does that make every man who's fvcked a bunch of women, a deadbeat who is good for nothing and a cold psychopath who's out of touch with reality as someone else so elegantly put? I hope not.

But first impressions are the best impressions.

This may be of some interest


Notice how Memento stated that she isn't bothered by her husband's sexual history. My wife isn't bothered too. Because its not a competition for women. But when I flipped the question back at her she had no answer. Why? Because it does bother men even the ones who claim that they are not so "insecure". On some level it bothers every man.


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

It kinda lingers on the 80% of the women sleep with 10% of the men theory, hmmm?


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

jaquen said:


> It does make me wonder though if men will be the ones to change it? Will we get to a point where women, on the whole, are having so much casual, "free" sex, than men won't even be able to discriminate because the virgins, and women with low numbers, are so rare as to not even factor into a realistic selection pool?


It's already gotten to that point. Why do you think men are unwilling to commit? All that commitment phobia of my bf doesn't want to marry me sort. We're already there and rather than seeing how everybody contributed to the way society is right now, we're indulging in silly games of placing the blame on the other gender. "He doesn't want to commit because he's an ass" while "you are the patron saint of chastity".And men who recognize this get flamed again.

Being a teenager in the 60's, I know how much my mother's generation fought for equal rights and opportunities and they were rewarded for their efforts. And you really have to appreciate the stand they took. But somewhere along the way they abused that power and men let them because they feared the shame of being branded as a sexist pig. Over time its only progressed to become a lot worse. And its really the man's fault for not standing up for his rights.

All that gentlemanly chivalry, that was all good and admirable when women indeed had no one else to rely upon. Now they're self sufficient and quite capable of holding their own. they don't need men to stand up for them. Our roles in society are slowly becoming obsolete and its not something to gloat over.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> But somewhere along the way they abused that power and men let them...


Your choice of words is unfortunate, at best.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Unfortunately for the woman who enjoys indulging in multiple sex partners, that hasn't translated into true sexual liberation. So, despite the unfairness, you have a plethora of women who decided to take the traditionally male approach to sex, and enjoy the company of as many sexual partners as they wanted, only to find their male counterparts slipping easily into the skin of marriage and long term relationships, and themselves often out in the cold.


Its a very tricky equation, one with many variables.
The basis of the problem lies in how sexual attraction for male vs female works.
There is a huge difference.

In the dating / attraction game, just a handful of men actually get laid multiple times by multiple women, simply because " good young men " place higher value on romantic love and intimacy. They don't go hunting for casual sex because they are not wired like that.

Then there are the guys who are wired like that. They place very little value on romance , intimacy . That's why women call them jerks.All they want is the sex. The reason they get all the sex they want is because of their attitude towards sex. They don't discriminate against any woman on the basis of her sexual behaviour,just as long as she has sex with them. They don't want commitment, just good times. Some women fool themselves into thinking that because they have sex with them, sex = love. These women get hurt. Others just know the deal and play the game.
But their biological clocks are ticking.
They begin to think in terms of marriage and babies.

The cannot get married to Mr.Alpha jerk or whatever you want to call him, and the " good man" who values intimacy and romance is also very wary of them because in his mind,the concept of romance is diametrically opposed to that of casual sex.
_He is wired that way._
Therin lies the problem. These women find themselves unable to get the partner they really desire,so they settle for what they can get. Sometimes they find happiness, but most times its elusive.
Another problem is that the double standard also works against certain types of men. [ I think these types of men are in the majority] If a man isn't having lots of sex, very few women would want him as a sexual partner, marriage partner or long term partner.
_He has not be prevalidated by other women_
Men have traditionally been the aggressors in the actual sex act and a man is supposed to know how to satisfy a woman in bed. Some women subconsciously asses his ability by the number of other women he's had sex with.

Basically its like going to a high school where everyone wears Levis. You automatically want to wear a Levi because everyone thinks its cool.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Notice how Memento stated that she isn't bothered by her husband's sexual history. My wife isn't bothered too. Because its not a competition for women. But when I flipped the question back at her she had no answer. Why? Because it does bother men even the ones who claim that they are not so "insecure". On some level it bothers every man.


My answer to that was "he does not care". I am sorry to disappoint you, but not every man thinks alike. Not every man dwells on the past either.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Memento said:


> Your choice of words is unfortunate, at best.


You should stop being defensive about the whole issue. When you get defensive all you're doing is fueling this into a gender battle. its a societal problem. I think you're going to have a far better appreciation of the world at large if you stop seeing things in first person.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Memento said:


> My answer to that was "he does not care". I am sorry to disappoint you, but not every man thinks alike. Not every man dwells on the past either.


He does not care because its only a hypothetical situation for him and more likely because he wants to spare you any hurt feelings. But I'll take your word for it, stranger.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> You should stop being defensive about the whole issue. When you get defensive all you're doing is fueling this into a gender battle. its a societal problem. I think you're going to have a far better appreciation of the world at large if you stop seeing things in first person.



That's why I always use this quote here on TAM regarding that millitant approach to gender issues.

"....*No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy*....."
Henry A. Kissinger

The point is that in the end , men are still free to choose whom they want as a life partner. No law,edict , " Papal bull ", or decree could take away a man's right.

_Most of the time its the man who proposes marriage. Technically he makes the choice_

What is needed is education, open dialogue and a sensible , mature approach.

I have said here before that as long as there is attraction from a man to a woman, she could get him to do anything , including marry her. Women have power they don't even understand.
But the fighting is a huge turn off for any man.
Men like women who could fight, but she must know who the enemy is and choose her battles wisely.
A man is not going to marry a woman whom he thinks will give him any trouble.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

BjornFree said:


> Therefore you could say that the more partners a man has had, the more desirable he becomes to *most *women because he actively displays the fact that he is of great value.


 I am happy you used the term "*most*" here. 

I was never one of these...I longed for the a man who kept his Di** out of other women's crotches & back seats.... I always felt these men are of the highest worth...and would make the best husbands.. It speaks mightily of their character, not because they COULDN'T get laid, but because they choose to wait for the love of 1 special woman.... True, it is very very freaking rare for a man to do in our modern society...but I dreamed anyway....this mattered to me . 

I am a born Romantic ~ this is my affliction.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> You should stop being defensive about the whole issue. When you get defensive all you're doing is fueling this into a gender battle. its a societal problem. I think you're going to have a far better appreciation of the world at large if you stop seeing things in first person.


Defensive? I am just paraphrasing your words. 
Which part of gender inequality is not a sociological problem?


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Memento said:


> Defensive? I am just paraphrasing your words.
> Which part of gender inequality is not a sociological problem?


The part that says men are the perpetrators. Because all your posts indicate that you're under the assumption that all women are chaste and most men are pigs.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> The part that says men are the perpetrators. Because all your posts indicate that you're under the assumption that all women are chaste and most men are pigs.


The only person here who makes generalizations is you.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Memento said:


> The only person here who makes generalizations is you.


So be it. Carry on...


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Maybe I should've named this the thread "How much baggage is too much baggage for marriage"...

Also wanted to comment on men not wanting single young mothers. 
How many single young fathers do you people know? Because I know zero. 
So I wonder, if situations were reversed and men were stuck with the child, would there be legions of single young fathers wandering around, saying how they can't find anyone that wants to date them? 
Because I'll bet money that answer would be yes. To bad we can never test that theory...


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> Maybe I should've named this the thread "How much baggage is too much baggage for marriage"...
> 
> Also wanted to comment on men not wanting single young mothers.
> How many single young fathers do you people know? Because I know zero.
> ...



My husband was a single father  But, you are correct, there are very few of those. I'll admit that most people don't want to deal with the stress of dealing with the other parent of the child/children, among other things. I saw beyond that. I saw a strong man, who was doing a good job raising his child... But, that's just me.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Watch Teen Mom dude. Ryan? Bentley's father? Ladies love him.
> 
> Why I have no idea, but whatever.


That show does not count. 
That isn't reality TV. Or even...close to reality. 
That is watch as these teenagers mess up their lives and we exploit them TV.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

BjornFree said:


> Two, it also gives the man a feeling that he's of lesser quality because other men who've had sex with her didn't have to deal with the after effects while the man had to promise her a stable relationship, sacrificing his freedom to pursue other women, just so he can have her for himself. This leaves a lot of men including me very dissatisfied in the balance of the whole relationship. And some men aren't willing to stay in such a relationship.


I have a slightly different angle on this explanation. If I were dating a woman who had been with many, many men, the back of my mind would be asking me, "Why didn't any of those men want to marry her?" 

I would be wondering, what did they know about her that I dont?

It then becomes a risk assessment exercise in my mind.


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Just because some guy isn't willing to tangle with a single mom, does that make him a disgusting pig? I never said a guy was a pig if he decided not to marry a woman because she has a child. It's a big responsibility to handle.
> 
> I'm talking about single mothers in their teens and early 20's. To most young men that would spell trouble. *Think about it why would a 20 year old guy want to have a relationship with a 20 year old girl who's been with all his mates and has a child to boot *when he sees other 20 year old women exhibiting far more self restraint?
> 
> ...





BjornFree said:


> Hello when did I say that?
> 
> *I said I would probably have a short term, purely sexual relationship with the woman. Since* /[QOUTE]
> 
> I realized that I projected in this thread. I didn't do causal sex, so to hear that a single mother was only good for a sexual relationship rubbed me the wrong way.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> The part that says men are the perpetrators. Because all your posts indicate that you're under the assumption that all women are chaste and most men are pigs.


I don't get that from Memento's posts at all.

:scratchhead:


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> Maybe I should've named this the thread "How much baggage is too much baggage for marriage"...
> 
> Also wanted to comment on men not wanting single young mothers.
> How many single young fathers do you people know? Because I know zero.
> ...


Off the top of my head? Two, my younger brother, and his best friend.

They have zero trouble attracting women. In my experience attractive, young dads, single or married, garner plenty of female attention.

Single dads do not, in my experience and observation, tend to run into the same stigmas as single moms do.


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> Maybe I should've named this the thread "How much baggage is too much baggage for marriage"...
> 
> Also wanted to comment on men not wanting single young mothers.
> How many single young fathers do you people know? Because I know zero.
> ...


I know quite a few single fathers meaning either never married or divorced. It's easier for them to date, and I don't hear as many women saying that they won't date a man with children.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I don't get that from Memento's posts at all.
> 
> :scratchhead:


Thank you.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

sandc said:


> I have a slightly different angle on this explanation. If I were dating a woman who had been with many, many men, the back of my mind would be asking me, "Why didn't any of those men want to marry her?"
> 
> I would be wondering, what did they know about her that I dont?
> 
> It then becomes a risk assessment exercise in my mind.


^This is exactly what I said in my earliest post. The one which riled everyone up. It was blunt but it was also a very honest statement, reflective of the attitude of a number of men.

Even the whole process of attraction for men is a risk assessment loop running at the back of our minds. Healthiest babies. So inevitably a man's gaze would home in on t*ts, hips, waist and butt. And when you find that they fit the parameters, bingo you're attracted to her.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Off the top of my head? Two, my younger brother, and his best friend.
> 
> They have zero trouble attracting women. In my experience attractive, young dads, single or married, garner plenty of female attention.
> 
> Single dads do not, in my experience and observation, tend to run into the same stigmas as single moms do.


Very interesting. 

But I would like to know. 
When I said young single mothers, I meant girls <25 
Do these men fall into that category?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

It's just practical, in these gender debates, to use qualifiers like "most", "many", "a lot", etc, to state up front that you can not possibly be talking about ALL men, or ALL women.

Because the truth be told, no matter how much we bunk down in hypotheticals, anecdotes, and theory, there are _many_ exceptions to every single one of these "rules".

Most people, regardless of how much baggage they carry, how many stigmas hang over their head, can find someone. The question isn't whether there is someone for everybody, the question is how much choice do I have?

I think that is where the angst comes in. Are you attracting the kind of people you actually want to be with?



Broken at 20 said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> But I would like to know.
> When I said young single mothers, I meant girls <25
> Do these men fall into that category?


My brother, and his best friend, are 28. Both have been single fathers since their early 20's.

I live in Brooklyn, NY. In the more hipstery areas you see a lot of dads out and about with kids. The young and/or attractive dads out with the kids alone clearly have no trouble attracting women...at all. 

I have never seen any evidence that the stigma of single fatherhood is anywhere near in the neighborhood of oppression hefted onto women.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Off the top of my head? Two, my younger brother, and his best friend.
> 
> They have zero trouble attracting women. In my experience attractive, young dads, single or married, garner plenty of female attention.
> 
> Single dads do not, in my experience and observation, tend to run into the same stigmas as single moms do.


Jaquen, 

Have you ever wondered what makes them attractive? Its the fact that the women can depend on these guys to raise children. This is why a guy who jumps into the dating game with the sole desire of getting married will find a lot of success, because he's already bringing the need for having a relationship onto the table.

The reason why single dads do not have the same stigma attached is because they don't invest time and resources in carrying the child and nursing it thus denying his other children of nourishment. Traditionally, taking care of the child was the woman's role. This is why women are given custody more often than not.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I think that is where the angst comes in. Are you attracting the kind of people you actually want to be with?


See, this is the real issue. The issue stems from the fact that the woman with a history and children from a prior relationship cannot attract the attentions of a "higher value" man. Female hypergamy kicking in.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

In reality,
There are very few single dads.
Women usually get custody or end up with the child after a relationship/ marriage collapses.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Caribbean Man said:


> In the dating / attraction game, just a handful of men actually get laid multiple times by multiple women, *simply because " good young men " place higher value on romantic love and intimacy. They don't go hunting for casual sex because they are not wired like that.*
> 
> Then there are the guys who are wired like that. They place very little value on romance , intimacy . That's why women call them jerks.All they want is the sex. The reason they get all the sex they want is because of their attitude towards sex. They don't discriminate against any woman on the basis of her sexual behaviour,just as long as she has sex with them. They don't want commitment, just good times. Some women fool themselves into thinking that because they have sex with them, sex = love. These women get hurt. Others just know the deal and play the game.
> But their biological clocks are ticking.
> ...


This is how I view these things as well..I so agree in how you explained all of this CB







The wiring clearly isn't the same. It is 2 different world views even. 

And those GOOD men who truly care about the deep intimacies of Romantic







... the ties that bind their very soul to another (the marrying type ).....they have every right to be weary ...noone wants to be 2nd best ..or settled for.

So many stories like this on this forum. It's sad really.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

It's all rooted in procreation and a mans need to know the child is his. A woman has never had to contend with this doubt, the baby she had, was always hers.

Up until recently, the only assurance we had of paternity was through taking a virgin, and then, under strict laws (and religious laws), try to prevent another man from impregnating their wife (or wives).

This is the core of the mindset.

Now, with paternity testing, the *original motivation* for chasteness has been removed.

I personally admire and am highly attracted to the more demure, sexually shy, type of woman, maybe it's hard coded in our genes, I don't know, one things certain, women like that are quickly becoming a rare commodity.

T


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Unfortunately test driving does not mean that what you test drove will run the same way after marriage... boy did I learn that one!!!


 Yes, my thoughts exactly!!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ladybird said:


> Yes, my thoughts exactly!!


Right. A test drive is not a predictor of future success. It is a check against a currently blown engine.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

LearninAsWeGo said:


> *You ABSOLUTELY have to try it before you buy it. No question whatsoever. To ignore that is out to your own peril, and chances are VERY VERY high of divorce* or at least one long term unhappy partner (who may or may not stay married and faithful out of duty, loyalty, fear of leaving on their own, etc etc). 50% of marriages fail, and another 50+ percent of those that "make it" have at least one miserable partner. Do anything you can to avoid either the marriage failure or the duty marriage. You can have a good one, but it's a lot of work (and pre-marital homework... including self and professional counseling, meeting the families, having sex to learn each other, developing shared hobbies, etc etc).


:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:

I really, really, really think the statistics are the other way around.

All I have ever noticed are the old fashioned people divorcing about 1000% less than modern life style people. 

So while 'cause and effect' issues can be all over the place, the bare statistic is inverse to what you mention. Dangerous if advising things like having sex to 'try out' a human being....


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> In reality,
> There are very few single dads.
> Women usually get custody or end up with the child after a relationship/ marriage collapses.


Wow that's sad, guessing you live in USA?? So are you saying that mostly mothers get 100% custody?

In Aussie it is not like this, the most common is to co parent. The court system here gives equal rights to men and women when it comes to child caring arrangements.
But even when one parent (mum or dad) has less time with the kids, they are still a parent.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Holland said:


> Wow that's sad, guessing you live in USA?? So are you saying that mostly mothers get 100% custody?
> 
> In Aussie it is not like this, the most common is to co parent. The court system here gives equal rights to men and women when it comes to child caring arrangements.
> But even when one parent (mum or dad) has less time with the kids, they are still a parent.


No, CM doesn't live in the USA. 

I do live in the US. I have a few single/divorced friends, both male and female. My male friends have joint or even sole custody of their kids. My female friends have joint or sole custody of their kids. It wasn't always that way, but now, the courts are starting to recognize the fact that mom isn't always the best option for custody of the kids. Hell, even one girlfriend of mine who DOESN'T have custody was actually the best option for her daughter, but her ex-husband pulled strings and got custody of their daughter, mostly because he knew her children are her world (she had a child before meeting him and he tried to get him removed too!).


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Holland said:


> Wow that's sad, guessing you live in USA?? So are you saying that mostly mothers get 100% custody?
> 
> In Aussie it is not like this, the most common is to co parent. The court system here gives equal rights to men and women when it comes to child caring arrangements.
> But even when one parent (mum or dad) has less time with the kids, they are still a parent.


Holland,
The court usually awards custody of the child to the woman because it is assumed that the man would be unable to spend enough time with the child because of his job.
If the man has enough money to challenge the courts, he can win the case.

My cousin and her husband got divorced because of her career. She wanted to migrate to the UK and he didn't. 
They had a bad marriage.
They had a young daughter.She got custody. He hired a Senior Counsel and challenged the court and won custody of the child. It cost him over $100K.

Usually the men refuse to challenge, because it is expensive and nasty.
Women usually get custody.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Holland,
> The court usually awards custody of the child to the woman because it is assumed that the man would be unable to spend enough time with the child because of his job.
> *If the man has enough money to challenge the courts, he can win the case.*
> 
> ...


I will agree that this is often the case, but even men who don't have thousands of dollars at their disposal are able to get custody. All that was needed for my friends was the documented proof regarding things each had done for the kids. It also helped that they got their kids into counseling immediately so there was that documentation as well. It really all depends on how involved each parent is in the children's lives. Maybe my friends aren't the norm. But at least their examples show that it DOES happen favorably for men who care, even if they don't have a lot of money for court costs.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

virginity is over rated. If you marry a virgin, its your own damned fault if your sex lives/attitudes towards sex are radically different and incompatible.

For those who harp on about purity and chastity and whatnot; it's all in your head. it's mental masturbation.

Why put something so important in a marriage to random chance of success and compatibility?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sandc said:


> I have a slightly different angle on this explanation. If I were dating a woman who had been with many, many men, the back of my mind would be asking me, "Why didn't any of those men want to marry her?"





BjornFree said:


> ^This is exactly what I said in my earliest post. The one which riled everyone up. It was blunt but it was also a very honest statement, reflective of the attitude of a number of men.


I don't know that your angle is so different SandC... I asked my husband his thoughts on this months ago when FalconKings Sexual History thread was alive & kicking .....he reasoned his feelings out one night to me & broke it down.... 

The higher the # of sexual partners ~ if she is still single after many yrs/ broken relationships......not finding "Lasting love" that is sustainable, in the back of his mind - the more likelihood something is seriously wrong with her.... whether it be: 

1. *Her bad choices* *in men.* 
2. *Why is noone sweeping her off her feet wanting to commit ~ SandC's thoughts. * .... or
3. *She is just in it for the pleasurable BANG & has little or no interest in a lifelong commitment & settling down*.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

anonim said:


> *virginity is over rated*. If you marry a virgin, its your own damned fault if your sex lives/attitudes towards sex are radically different and incompatible.
> 
> For those who harp on about purity and chastity and whatnot; it's all in your head. it's mental masturbation.
> 
> Why put something so important in a marriage to random chance of success and compatibility?


Your opinion. Some of us don't view it that way. It doesn't make our personal views any more wrong than yours. I'd say the incompatibility is more likely to occur if the couple doesn't discuss these things before they marry. As many have stated, even having sex before marrying isn't a guarantee.

I get how you feel about it, both you and anony2. I understand that. But to imply, or even state, that I am wrong for feeling it is important FOR ME? Seriously, NO ONE has said anything about "purity" in this thread, as far as I have seen. If I am wrong about that, I apologize. But why do you always seem to bring THAT into it? 

"it's all in your head. it's mental masturbation."... Care to elaborate on that?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Hmmmmmmm,
So let me see.
You get married to a virgin, she turns out to be crappy in bed and its your fault?:scratchhead:

Ok.

You get married to a very experienced woman who after marriage decides that she is repulsed by the idea of sex with you. [ as happens often here on TAM]
Whose fault would that be?:scratchhead:

Yes, I believe thay virginity is overrated, but casual sex, and "sexual experience " is waaaaaay overrated .

Both are " logic fails."

Over the last few decades, more and more people are having lots sex, and sexual partners outside of marriage. 
But,the problem is _inside_ marriage. 
The sex simply stops. Millions of sexless marriages .
So having lots of sex outside of marriage is no guarantee of sexual compatibility within marriage.

In fact, there are no guarantees of anything inside of marriage. Its a work in progress.


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## TamedVixen (Dec 6, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I did not marry a virgin.
> 
> What I did was date a nympho and marry a prude. I still suspect there was something in the wedding cake.


So sorry to hear about this.  Was your wife a prude the whole marriage or after a period of time?

My husband dated and married a nympho. :smthumbup:

I held off on sleeping with him for months so that he wouldn't think I was too loose; I know most men harshly judge women who are too easy.

I appreciate the way my husband embraced my past...a mature and compassionate man can truly tame a vixen.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Hmmmmmmm,
> So let me see.
> You get married to a virgin, she turns out to be crappy in bed and its your fault?:scratchhead:
> 
> ...


CB and Maricha I thank you guys for your responses to anonim's post. I was going to respond with something really condescending and sarcastic:corkysm60:. Thanks for going the intelligent and objective route. When all he wants to do is be reactive.


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

I never understand why i thread like this gets people (women especially) so unnerved, on a MARRIAGE forum.

I think it's mainly because women put wayyyy too much stock into the opinions of men, even men they don't know. And it's kind of a shame.

These men are married, is who they would/would not sleep even slightly relevant in the least. They're only sleeping with one person now (hopefully) anyway:rofl: And that person is not a virgin

If they want to believe that virgins are better, what's the issue? I believe that men with big d*cks who do very well financially are better (my husband) :smthumbup:

Point is, we've all got our thing. And if a person's thing doesn't include you. Why should you give even the slightest f*ck?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

aribabe said:


> I never understand why i thread like this gets people (women especially) so unnerved, on a MARRIAGE forum.
> 
> I think it's mainly because women put wayyyy too much stock into the opinions of men, even men they don't know. And it's kind of a shame.
> 
> ...


I think I like your thoughts on the subject matter.......
Thanks for the laugh Ari!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

anonim said:


> virginity is over rated. If you marry a virgin, its your own damned fault if your sex lives/attitudes towards sex are radically different and incompatible.


Yes, there are some very sad stories such as these. Noone can deny this.... I have gotten really emotional reading some of them even.. I am also NOT an advocate to not touch each other before marriage at all. I feel some exploration is IMPORTANT ! But the haste for the "fusion".... before you are in Love... we all have our sexual boundaries. To each their own. 

Statistically a couple doesn't fare any better after marriage by having a robust happening sexual frenzy of a time - we all know this. A marriage needs a *proper foundation* laid in many many areas besides







(see my thread below for some of these )......this is where the great majority DO FAIL. The bedroom was not enough to sustain them either. 



> For those who harp on about purity and chastity and whatnot; it's all in your head. it's mental masturbation.


 I've had sexual fantasies & masterbated since I was probably 11....but I still wanted to wait for 1 special man to give him my all, to experience the throws of passion in committed Love...

This is something important to some of us...to mock this is to squeeze the beauty from it & tell us it was nothing ~it's all in our heads, get a life. This is why it IS so important to find a partner who has the same value system/ world view / WIRING as CB put it (on page 10) ....on these very delicate issues... 

For me it is the *Romance* of it all, I'd be miserable with a man lacking affectionate Romance.......that means more to me than his $$ or his Di** size... 

Aribabe is absolutely correct when she said ... *we ALL have our THING*.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

I think it's just insecurities. If someone likes something that is not you, then you feel they are saying they want something better than you. And nobody wants to hear that. It's better or worse. When it's really just preference. Seeing how people respond to this is a good indication about how unreasonable they can be about certain subjects. 

I personally think that people who get offended by this kind of talk have never had to handle someone rejecting them. They've never had to rationalize not being someone's type and accepting that people want different things. Obviously if you are an decent looking woman that always has men always approaching them, having someone talk about marrying a virgin or having that be good for *that person's* marriage is something you can not stand for:nono: Or if you were the big man on campus hooking up with a bunch of randoms. You are what mature and non-judgmental people want. What you do is what everybody does and should do. You have to make everyone realize that. Pfft...get over yourself


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## TamedVixen (Dec 6, 2012)

Nothing is wrong with having personal beliefs...it's just when people start making insulting assumptions based on number of sexual partners, others get offended. 

I know I was very wild before I met my husband. He treats me so well that he is the only man I want to make love to forever. He benefits from my sexual experience.

Last night, a friend of mine teased me about the way I used to swear I'd never marry. Some ****ty women can be tamed by the right amount of love, patience and tenderness. Most people think that a woman who has played the field can never make a good wife...I know that isn't true for me. The emptiness of a one night stand pales in comparison to the gift of married sex. It is like comparing a cracker to a sumptuous banquet.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

aribabe said:


> I never understand why i thread like this gets people (women especially) so unnerved, on a MARRIAGE forum.
> 
> I think it's mainly because women put wayyyy too much stock into the opinions of men, even men they don't know. And it's kind of a shame.
> 
> ...


In other words, women simply cannot handle it when a man outright rejects them because they don't meet his standards. Men who have actually rejected a woman who threw herself at them will know exactly what I'm talking about.

EDIT: I meant most women.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

TamedVixen said:


> Nothing is wrong with having personal beliefs...it's just when people start making insulting assumptions based on number of sexual partners, others get offended.
> 
> I know I was very wild before I met my husband. He treats me so well that he is the only man I want to make love to forever. He benefits from my sexual experience.
> 
> Last night, a friend of mine teased me about the way I used to swear I'd never marry. Some ****ty women can be tamed by the right amount of love, patience and tenderness. Most people think that a woman who has played the field can never make a good wife...I know that isn't true for me. The emptiness of a one night stand pales in comparison to the gift of married sex. It is like comparing a cracker to a sumptuous banquet.


Was your husband a virgin?

There you go you said it yourself "Some" sl*tty women can be tamed. Well some men are smart enough not to gamble away their future in the hopes of taming one.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Holland said:


> Wow that's sad, guessing you live in USA?? So are you saying that mostly mothers get 100% custody?.


The most common outcome in the US is joint legal custody, with primary physical custody going typically to the mother. But if a father wants to be with his children, and is a sound parent by the court's standards, he gets plenty of access to his children. It's all a case by case basis, but it is not as simple as saying that a woman can just take a man's kids away.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> In other words, women simply cannot handle it when a man outright rejects them because they don't meet his standards. Men who have actually rejected a woman who threw herself at them will know exactly what I'm talking about.
> 
> EDIT: I meant most women.


Well to be fair. A lot of men can't handle it either. I've known men who've tried to approach women and when the woman says she's not interested they immediately start trying to diss her. It's like they have to convince themselves that the woman dissing them is saying she wasn't worth their time in the first place.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> So...it's...a...human...thing?
> 
> *beep boop beep boop*


:rofl:


----------



## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Lol, no that's not it

It's that these married men aren't rejecting them at all.
They're just giving an opinion.
A completely, and entirely, irrelevant one
That no married (or single) woman should give a single f*ck about

99% men have never been given the opportunity to "reject a woman who threw herself at him." And it's highly unlikely that the 1% that have are all on TAM :rofl: 

The fact is that the "standard's" that most men have are looser than a woman's who's has 10 kids' vagina* (ok, that was mean :rofl 



*if there are any women with 10 kids on TAM, i apologize 



BjornFree said:


> In other words, women simply cannot handle it when a man outright rejects them because they don't meet his standards. Men who have actually rejected a woman who threw herself at them will know exactly what I'm talking about.
> 
> EDIT: I meant most women.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

FalconKing said:


> Well to be fair. A lot of men can't handle it either. I've known men who've tried to approach women and when the woman says she's not interested they immediately start trying to diss her. It's like they have to convince themselves that the woman dissing them is saying she wasn't worth their time in the first place.


True, they shouldn't even be in the game to be honest and there are also men who feel like sad little puppies that have had their worlds turned upside down when they get rejected

Rejection is a part of the whole process. Its when you overcome your fear of being rejected that you actually get to have much more fun interacting with the females. No man, not even a pick up artist was completely at ease the first time he approached a girl. Practice makes perfect.

But we're getting sidetracked now.


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## needyForHelp (Aug 8, 2012)

aribabe said:


> 99% men have never been given the opportunity to "reject a woman who threw herself at him." And it's highly unlikely that the 1% that have are all on TAM :rofl:


Well I am one of the 1% as I have rejected girls coming directly on to me, even before getting married and after. I had a girl who explicitly said and wanted to have sex with me but I rejected as I just didn't want to have it with her. And there were a few ones (after I was married to my wife) who wanted to have sex and explicitly tried but I didn't do it because I didn't want to cheat on my wife.

So its not a big deal, you can just simply say thanks but no thanks


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Must be your awesomeness











needyForHelp said:


> Well I am one of the 1% as I have rejected girls coming directly on to me, even before getting married and after. I had a girl who explicitly said and wanted to have sex with me but I rejected as I just didn't want to have it with her. And there were a few ones (after I was married to my wife) who wanted to have sex and explicitly tried but I didn't do it because I didn't want to cheat on my wife.
> 
> So its not a big deal, you can just simply say thanks but no thanks


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

aribabe said:


> 99% men have never been given the opportunity to "reject a woman who threw herself at him." And it's highly unlikely that the 1% that have are all on TAM :rofl:
> 
> [/SIZE]


I don't know if that 99% assumption is correct....:scratchhead:

Women still throw themselves at me. That was the main reason I stopped working at a particular fashion house with a particular designer down here. I started my own business.

And now there's this much older stalker- like woman in my neighbourhood ,everytime I go to jogging......

I also know a few other married guys with the same problem. Women far outnumber men so the competition is fierce.


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## TamedVixen (Dec 6, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Was your husband a virgin?
> 
> There you go you said it yourself "Some" sl*tty women can be tamed. Well some men are smart enough not to gamble away their future in the hopes of taming one.


No, my husband was not a virgin as I was never interested in men who had never had sex. He is a worldly and highly educated man in a respected profession. 

Perhaps a less cultured and educated gentleman, would look down on a woman for having a past and mistake their myopic view for intelligence. 

What makes you think my husband "gambled away" his future with me?  Nothing wrong with having certain beliefs, but there is something very mean-spirited about making negative assumptions...especially about a person who did nothing to you!


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

lol, you guys are really on it today :rofl:




Caribbean Man said:


> I don't know if that 99% assumption is correct....:scratchhead:
> 
> Women still throw themselves at me. That was the main reason I stopped working at a particular fashion house with a particular designer down here. I started my own business.
> 
> ...


----------



## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> True, they shouldn't even be in the game to be honest and there are also men who feel like sad little puppies that have had their worlds turned upside down when they get rejected
> 
> Rejection is a part of the whole process. Its when you overcome your fear of being rejected that you actually get to have much more fun interacting with the females. No man, not even a pick up artist was completely at ease the first time he approached a girl. Practice makes perfect.
> 
> But we're getting sidetracked now.


I know right? This is something I just experienced a few days ago. One of my friends was complaining to me about this girl and he didn't know what to do. The girl was always inviting him to her place, touching him, and asking him to sleep over. I told him that she liked him or just wanted to have sex with him. He is a very socially awkward guy. I told him to just ask the girl out, flat out. He looked at me with tears in his eyes and was breathing hard. I tried to explain him that getting rejected is a the reality of dating and social interaction. It's not going to kill you or destroy you. I think the girl was just using him for attention or wanted to be in control of how things progressed. When he finally asked her out, she feigned indifference and then stop responding to his texts. He was mad at himself for being direct. I told him that now he didn't have to waste anymore time with it. He's 30, the girl was 21 with 3 kids and recently divorced. I just don't think she knew what she wanted but wanted his attention. Now he's free of that crap.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> In other words, women simply cannot handle it when a man outright rejects them because they don't meet his standards. Men who have actually rejected a woman who threw herself at them will know exactly what I'm talking about.
> 
> EDIT: I meant most women.


:iagree:

"..Hell hath no fury more than a woman scorned.."

As a married man I can tell you that when you reject an outside woman's advances , she would do everything in her power to make life difficult for you.

At first she will try " gentle persuasion ." when that fails, she would try seduction. When that too fails, its like an open declaration of war. All hell breaks loose.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

aribabe said:


> 99% men have never been given the opportunity to "reject a woman who threw herself at him." And it's highly unlikely that the 1% that have are all on TAM :rofl:
> 
> The fact is that the "standard's" that most men have are looser than a woman's who's has 10 kids' vagina* (ok, that was mean :rofl


That's exactly what I said and it set so many people off. 

If I were single, I'd be a fool to reject something offered on a plate.

I meant rejection as in "rejecting the possibility of having a long term relationship".


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> "..Hell hath no fury more than a woman scorned.."


Truer statements were never quoted my friend.

That's why I added the disclaimer. Whew.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

anonim said:


> virginity is over rated. If you marry a virgin, its your own damned fault if your sex lives/attitudes towards sex are radically different and incompatible.
> 
> For those who harp on about purity and chastity and whatnot; it's all in your head. it's mental masturbation.
> 
> Why put something so important in a marriage to random chance of success and compatibility?


Tell us, did that pre-marital test drive make you immune to sexual issues in your marriage? You getting all the sex you want, are totally satisfied, and completely compatible sexually with your spouse?


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

TamedVixen said:


> No, my husband was not a virgin as I was never interested in men who had never had sex. He is a worldly and highly educated man in a respected profession.
> 
> Perhaps a less cultured and educated gentleman, would look down on a woman for having a past and mistake their myopic view for intelligence.
> 
> What makes you think my husband "gambled away" his future with me?  Nothing wrong with having certain beliefs, but there is something very mean-spirited about making negative assumptions...especially about a person who did nothing to you!


Negative assumptions? For crying out loud, why do you even think I was referring to you? 

Some men are indeed myopic, they like to weigh the risks on the face of it rather than delve into the depths hoping to find a shining jewel inside. Really, if you think about it, the approach is actually quite an intelligent one. You like what you see, you go deeper. You don't like what you see, you don't waste your time.

So are the unworldly, uneducated virginal men criticizing you for having a preference?

I never said your husband gambled away his future. If you read my posts dear lady, you'll see that I said some men are not willing to gamble away their futures - I was referring to myself.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

FalconKing said:


> Well to be fair. A lot of men can't handle it either. I've known men who've tried to approach women and when the woman says she's not interested they immediately start trying to diss her. It's like they have to convince themselves that the woman dissing them is saying she wasn't worth their time in the first place.


That's known as *sour grapes*. It's a failing of the individual, a sign of weak character.

T


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

TamedVixen said:


> No, my husband was not a virgin as I was never interested in men who had never had sex. He is a worldly and highly educated man in a respected profession.


Yeah because worldly and highly educated men all have the same views about sex


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

All the men on TAM are 1% chick magnets, and all the women are married to men with 1% 8" penises. It's like a full on sex god storm in this place.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> I don't know if that 99% assumption is correct....:scratchhead:


It's an incorrect assumption because it supposes that 99% of guys are ugly, desperate, sexually deprived imbeciles who can't afford to turn down a woman.

It doesn't include the attractive guys who get hit on frequently, but want to stay faithful to their girlfriends/wives. Or the ones who just have standards.

It doesn't include the guys who aren't interested in casual sex for moral/religious reasons.

And it assumes that all guys are interested in all women, which of course is absurd.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

my point is that if you commit to something that will change your life forever, it is in your best interests to test the hell out of it. this is a no brainer. 

Not testing it is equivalent to buying a house without poking your head inside.
If you have a tradition where you to buy houses that way, it's your right to have that choice. but it doesn't make it a wise one.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

anonim said:


> my point is that if you commit to something that will change your life forever, it is in your best interests to test the hell out of it. this is a no brainer.
> 
> Not testing it is equivalent to buying a house without poking your head inside.
> If you have a tradition where you to buy houses that way, it's your right to have that choice. but it doesn't make it a wise one.


Yet we're in the highest testing phase in this nation's history, and divorce rates, and sexless marriages, are at an all time high.

Interesting.

And still you didn't answer the question. Did the "test drive" give you immunity to compatibility, frequency, and quality sex issues in your own marriage?


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

Jaquen, I want you and Caribbean Man to help me write a book about dating and relationships. I think i'll title it, _"Don't Hate Me Because I Don't Like You"_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> It's an incorrect assumption because it supposes that 99% of guys are ugly, desperate, sexually deprived imbeciles who can't afford to turn down a woman.
> 
> It doesn't include the attractive guys who get hit on frequently, but want to stay faithful to their girlfriends/wives. Or the ones who just have standards.
> 
> ...



I think she was just joking...

But you are correct.
It also doesn't include guys who have some sort of religious conviction , and decide to remain faithful or if unmarried, believes that sex is only for married people [ As taught by religion .]

But the main point that's being missed is that we live in a more sexually liberated society and women outnumber men.
Based on that ratio, more women are likely to approach men for sex or relationships.
Also more women are having casual sex.
_It has become competitive._
So a man does not have to be super hot or alpha or anything to get hit on by women or a woman for that matter.

It can happen even to the most introverted guy.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

FalconKing said:


> I was going to respond with something really condescending and sarcastic:corkysm60:.
> 
> ...When all he wants to do is be reactive.


You sure you dont mean *you *want to be reactive?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

anonim said:


> Not testing it is equivalent to buying a house without poking your head inside.


More like buying a cave without poking your head inside, but close enough.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Yet we're in the highest testing phase in this nation's history, and divorce rates, and sexless marriages, are at an all time high.
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> And still you didn't answer the question. Did the "test drive" give you immunity to compatibility, frequency, and quality sex issues in your own marriage?


No the 'test drive' doesn't give immunity, that's an absurd question. its like a screening for an illness. it wont stop you getting ill in the future but it will give you a heads up on problems you have now that you didn't otherwise know you had. Is there something wrong with that?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Yet we're in the highest testing phase in this nation's history, and divorce rates, and sexless marriages, are at an all time high.
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> And still you didn't answer the question. Did the "test drive" give you immunity to compatibility, frequency, and quality sex issues in your own marriage?


And correlation does not imply causation.

Speaking only for myself, the test drive cannot predict future performance, but it can sure as hell weed out the 'not even from the same planet' class of problems. To be fair, so can talking about it, theoretically at least. But that doesn't make either approach superior.

Let's just say that my wife, who required chastity of me before getting married, has counseled her own daughter very differently on the matter.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Logic fail _again._

If you are screened for an illness today and you showed up negative.
Does it say that you will not get that illness in the future?

There is nothing guaranteed in marriage.
_It is a work in progress._

You can " poke your head" into the house before buying it, but it guarantees _nothing_.
Can you see the termite colony just forming in the foundation?
Can you forsee the damage done during that unexpected natural disaster two years later?
And even if none of those things happen, can you foresee that guy, five years later, who comes into your house everytime you leave for work and has sex with your wife?


There is always the option of divorce when everything else fails.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

anonim said:


> virginity is over rated. If you marry a virgin, its your own damned fault if your sex lives/attitudes towards sex are radically different and incompatible.
> 
> For those who harp on about purity and chastity and whatnot; it's all in your head. it's mental masturbation.
> 
> Why put something so important in a marriage to random chance of success and compatibility?





anonim said:


> You sure you dont mean *you *want to be reactive?


Yeah because your post was educated and rational. Whoops there goes that sarcasm


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

aribabe said:


> The fact is that the "standard's" that most men have are looser than a woman's who's has 10 kids' vagina* (ok, that was mean :rofl


I can't say I disagree with this ...and I've always found it  when I read these same men admit...
IF *THEY COULD HAVE*....would have jumped right in & had all the free sex their raging Di**s could handle in their youth....it speaks much about their *true character*.. to me anyway. 

My husband was never this type of man...he'd reject sex "just for Sex" & choose his hand any day ~ he has always said this & the way he lives has proved it many times over, including his youth.. he never felt cheated either. 

Our 1st 3 sons appear to be just like him....but unlike their dad ... who pretty much sucked with women admittedly ... they are more sought after... I get the biggest charge out of this..seeing how aggressive some young girls are today, some of the things they have said to them... Oh my ~ Very forward ! 

2nd son complained one time how annoying it is (he has a GF)... I told him it's a nice problem to have with a .


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Logic fail _again._
> 
> If you are screened for an illness today and you showed up negative.
> Does it say that you will not get that illness in the future?


Nope. But if you have Hep C today, is it reasonable to believe that you're going to magically be rid of it after you're married?


----------



## TamedVixen (Dec 6, 2012)

Educated men are often (not always, FK) too sophisticated and experienced, to hold such divisive and archaic views about how many partners a woman "should" have. They are too bright to be so narrowminded. 

Bjorn, by saying that "some men are smart enough not to gamble away their futures with vixens", you are implying that my husband was not smart when he chose me. 

Myopic thinking is nothing to be proud of IMO. The only reason I didn't want a virgin husband is I didn't want to have to teach a man about sex. I prefer someone who knows his way around a woman's body and not just teenage groping. Any inexperienced men I slept with when I was single were terrible in bed. Life is too short for bad sex and at least I gave those men a chance before writing them off, like so many men would do to a woman who has been promiscuous before. 

I am detecting a mob mentality with some of the men who took an issue with what I posted; heaven forbid a woman have a past and then have the audacity to enjoy a happy marriage! :rofl:


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Nope. But if you have Hep C today, is it reasonable to believe that you're going to *magically* be rid of it after you're married?


There is nothing magical in marriage.

If you have problems with sex before marriage, having sex does not fix that problem. Talking about it and changing your / her attitude fixes the problem.
Not " poking your head " into it.

A woman/ man having the wrong attitude to sex can easily be fixed.
It doesn't matter whether they are a virgin or have had lots of experience. Both can and often do have problems with sex.

Tell me which in your opinion is worse.
A man who married a woman who was a virgin and found out she was horrible in bed, or a man who married a nympho and she later stopped having sex with him because she got turned off?


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Logic fail _again._
> 
> If you are screened for an illness today and you showed up negative.
> Does it say that you will not get that illness in the future?
> ...


Logic fail.

No one can see the future. Thus that cannot be a premise of a debate.

There are few guarantees in life, but I guarantee you that _not _'poking your head in' guarantees that you WONT see anything.

Not driving a new car until you've bought it will guarantee that any problems that exist will not be found until you are (over) committed.

get the drift?


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Nope. But if you have Hep C today, is it reasonable to believe that you're going to magically be rid of it after you're married?


this is the point i'm making that certain members do not (want) to see


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

FalconKing said:


> Yeah because your post was educated and rational. Whoops there goes that sarcasm


im actually discussing my perspective/opinion, not trying to troll. if you cant contribute, please dont.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

anonim,
You just shot yourself in the head!
No wonder you're " _drifting_.."

If " no one can see the future"
Then what do expect to accurately deduce by " test driving " a woman or 
" poking your head " into her _before_ marriage?


----------



## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

TamedVixen said:


> Educated men are often (not always, FK) too sophisticated and experienced, to hold such divisive and archaic views about how many partners a woman "should" have. They are too bright to be so narrowminded.


I think most men would like to know the type of relationships a woman has had and how they ended rather than just a number. It's not being narrow-minded as it's more of knowing what you are getting into. Everyone has their deal breakers. 




> I am detecting a mob mentality with some of the men who took an issue with what I posted; heaven forbid a woman have a past and then have the audacity to enjoy a happy marriage! :rofl:


Well you are trying to present things as black and white. Maybe you are trying to convince yourself that any successful man would want a woman like you. Maybe you should just be happy that you have a good marriage. I have money and i'm educated. I've lived in foreign countries. I can't say that you are exactly my type.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> There is nothing magical in marriage.
> 
> A woman/ man having the wrong attitude to sex can easily be fixed.


Easily? Harumph.



> It doesn't matter whether they are a virgin or have had lots of experience. Both can and often do have problems with sex.


Never said otherwise.




> Tell me which in your opinion is worse.
> 
> A man who married a woman who was a virgin and found out she was horrible in bed, or a man who married a nympho and she later stopped having sex with him because she got turned off?


The man who married the virgin. 

He failed the due diligence test which should have been applied before entering the contractual obligation of marriage. I'm already on record as saying that the test is not a predictor of a change in future behavior. But since I disagree with the "easily" statement above in the strongest terms, and since expecting change is even MORE fraught with error than expecting consistency, failure mode 1 is worse. An almost guaranteed unhappy marriage could have been avoided.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

anonim said:


> im actually discussing my perspective/opinion, not trying to troll. if you cant contribute, please dont.


try harder. I believe in you.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Cletus,
They are both one and the same.

_Neither of them are having a satisfying sex life after marriage._

The problem is not in virginity or a lack of " due diligence." 

The problem is in the relationship and in the *attitude *of the woman towards sex.
Virginity does not automatically mean that a woman has a negative *attitude* towards sex.
A woman having lots of sexual partners does not automatically mean that she has a healthy *attitude *towards sex.


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## Terry_CO (Oct 23, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> You get married to a very experienced woman who after marriage decides that she is repulsed by the idea of sex with you. [ as happens often here on TAM]
> Whose fault would that be?:scratchhead:


Let me take that thought a step further.

Women have an undeniable advantage in a marriage - sex. They can deny it to us and be quite happy. Men cannot.

I explained the differences to my wife, who seemed flabberghasted when I stated "Men think about sex ALL the time. We see an attractive woman, we check her out and imagine "hitting that". It's hard-wired in us. WANTING sex is something we think about all the time ....like background music playing in our heads". Like our life soundtrack 

This is the woman who has had vastly more sexual experience with men than I have had with women before we met. It tells me that they were with her not to discuss personal issues, careers, politics, or the weather ....but rather were with her just to satisfy more base needs 

Knowing this disparity, many women have used this weakness of ours against us in order to get their way in marriage. And it works  We would do almost _anything_ to get back the sex that is denied us. Some of us would leave the marriage, and some of us would cheat. But most of us will go along with our wives when they demand something in exchange for their continued affection. 

It used to be that we had control over the money so when our wives cut us off ....we could cut THEM off. "Fine. You freeze me out, babe ...I'll take away your credit card". I'm talking "Father Knows Best" days ...nothing recent, of course  

But now, with women being close to equal in the workplace (there is still inequality there. I'm sure you ladies agree  ), we men have no "trump card". We have to resort to pleasuring ourselves when the wives cut us off. The alternatives to this are just too dangerous, devious, and destructive.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> anonim,
> You just shot yourself in the head!
> No wonder you're " _drifting_.."
> 
> ...


Then why date at all? Why not just select a mate by lottery?

It is more reasonable (and in fact borne out by the evidence on longitudinal personality traits) to expect some consistency over time in your partner's attitudes. 

It's no iron clad guarantee, but for most of us lacking a crystal ball, it's the best we can do.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Cletus,
> They are both one and the same.


I'm not willing to concede that.



> The problem is not in virginity or a lack of " due diligence."
> 
> The problem is in the relationship and in the attitude of the woman towards sex.


Fine. That attitude can be divined prior to marriage in at least two ways, one of them being permarital sex. 

If attitudes on sex were as easy to change as you suggest, there'd be no need for this forum.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

anonim said:


> No the 'test drive' doesn't give immunity, that's an absurd question. its like a screening for an illness. it wont stop you getting ill in the future but it will give you a heads up on problems you have now that you didn't otherwise know you had. Is there something wrong with that?


But the screening is not working. Period. As much sense as it makes, and it does sound like basic common sense, the results are insufficient to back up the claim.

The vast majority of the estimated 40 million sexless couples in the USA alone had the test run prior to marriage. 

The results are consistent across the board. Pre-marital sex is an entirely different beast than marital sex in tens of millions of cases.

_Something_ happens to people after the vows and rings are exchanged. What that something entails is another debate, but there is a stark, consistent, repeatable happening unfolding after marriage that is rendering pre-marital testing null and void in a large majority of cases.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> anonim,
> You just shot yourself in the head!
> No wonder you're " _drifting_.."
> 
> ...


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/62045-marrying-virgin-vs-experience-15.html#post1265399

Need me to increase the font size?


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

jaquen said:


> But the screening is not working. Period. As much sense as it makes, and it does sound like basic common sense, the results are insufficient to back up the claim.
> 
> The vast majority of the estimated 40 million sexless couples in the USA alone had the test run prior to marriage.
> 
> The results are consistent across the board. Pre-marital sex is an entirely different beast than marital sex in tens of millions of cases.


citation needed.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

TamedVixen said:


> Bjorn, by saying that "some men are smart enough not to gamble away their futures with vixens", you are implying that my husband was not smart when he chose me.


My dear lady, that is how you interpreted my post. But you really don't have to defend your husband's decision to marry you, honestly, we're strangers and our opinions are hardly of any consequence in our lives.

I didn't marry a promiscuous woman because i didn't want to marry a promiscuous woman. Is that so hard to stomach?

I didn't mind having fun with these women because I wanted to. Does that make me a man who uses women for fun? Probably does but they had fun too. Isn't that the whole point of casual sex? Fun?

The only reason you're angry is because of the double standards that exist. Not your fault. .........Not ours either.

And I'll take it a step further, the only reason most of the promiscuous women are angry is because of the frustration, the frustration of not having to choose from the larger gene pool and that leads them to get defensive and rationalize the reasons for their past behavior and how it doesn't affect them now etc etc etc.

Do you see the promiscuous or the inexperienced men trying to rationalize why they did or didn't do something? No, they just didn't do it because they had a set of beliefs that they either chose to follow or didn't choose to follow. Its that simple.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> *Something happens to people after the vows and rings are exchanged. **What that something entails is another debate, but there is a stark, consistent, repeatable happening unfolding after marriage that is rendering pre-marital testing null and void in a large majority of cases.*


.......and THAT'S the point!
:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

anonim said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/62045-marrying-virgin-vs-experience-15.html#post1265399
> 
> Need me to increase the font size?


:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:

Nope,
But, if you want to be a little more coherent,
Maybe you can try to explain / resurrect this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/60583-relationship-models.html


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:
> 
> Nope,
> But, if you want to be a little more coherent,
> ...


Indeed CB does his research.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jaquen said:


> _Something_ happens to people after the vows and rings are exchanged. What that something entails is another debate, but there is a stark, consistent, repeatable happening unfolding after marriage that is rendering pre-marital testing null and void in a large majority of cases.


About half of all men and 40% of women report sexual satisfaction in their marriage. So "large majority" is a bit of an overstatement. 

Don't forget about the bias introduced by hanging around these parts.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Then why date at all? Why not just select a mate by lottery?


My wife and I waited. We waited for _many years_. In our long relationship we took two breaks, and were free to date/sleep with whomever we chose. Neither of us chose anybody, because we were just that connected and in love. There just didn't seem to be any point in dragging anybody else into the middle of our love story. Together, apart, it didn't matter, we were just each other's "it".

Why date at all? Because we knew that the only person we ever wanted to think about sharing this life with was one another. There was no getting away from one another. The love was that powerful, and the chemistry that deep.

What we learned?

You can ascertain sexual chemistry before you stick anything into anything.

You can reach a place of transparency, and honesty, about sex without having it.

You can be madly in love, connected, and faithful even without the presence of sex.

I totally understand, and get, that the vast majority people will take the test drive" option. Fine, good, wonderful. My only point is that there are successful stories from the other camp, and that celibacy, and virginity, get a very bad rap by being made synonymous with prudishness and sexual aversion.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

jaquen said:


> My wife and I waited. We waited for _many years_. In our long relationship we took two breaks, and were free to date/sleep with whomever we chose. Neither of us chose anybody, because we were just that connected and in love. There just didn't seem to be any point in dragging anybody else into the middle of our love story. Together, apart, it didn't matter, we were just each other's "it".
> 
> Why date at all? Because we knew that the only person we ever wanted to think about sharing this life with was one another. There was no getting away from one another. The love was that powerful, and the chemistry that deep.
> 
> ...


Even otherwise, its remarkably easy to sniff out the naughty but shy ones from the cold fish.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I totally understand, and get, that the vast majority people will take the test drive" option. Fine, good, wonderful. My only point is that there are successful stories from the other camp, and that celibacy, and virginity, get a very bad rap by being made synonymous with prudishness and sexual aversion.


I agree completely. No problem. I'm simply of the opinion that this is only one of at least two ways to determine the answer to an important question, and I bridle at an argument explicitly or implicitly stated that it's somehow superior. 

It's the right choice for those for whom it's the right choice.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Cletus said:


> About half of all men and 40% of women report sexual satisfaction in their marriage. So "large majority" is a bit of an overstatement.


Except I didn't suggest that I was using "all marriages" as my criteria.

I specifically stated that I was talking about:

*The vast majority of the estimated 40 million sexless couples in the USA* a

Pre-marital sex is an entirely different beast than marital sex *in tens of millions of cases.*

The "large majority" was in reference to the "large majority" of people who had pre-marital sex within the sexless marriages. 

Never once were "all marriages" eluded to in my post.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

1]People have sex because they want to have sex and enjoy having sex.

2]The only people that " test drive " women are pimps and hustlers.

3]Having sex before marriage , or not having sex before marriage is absolutely no guarantee of what a person's attitude towards sex will be after marriage.

Sex whilst dating is often fantastic. That's why men get married, for the promise of great sex. After marriage *something* happens.[To borrow from Jaquen ]
To solve the problem, we would first have to find out ,
_Exactly what happened._


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> 1][To borrow from Jaquen ]
> To solve the problem, we would first have to find out ,
> _Exactly what happened._


And to find if there is a problem, we test drive.

You're welcome.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> 1]People have sex because they want to have sex and enjoy having sex.
> 
> 2]The only people that " test drive " women are pimps and hustlers. wrong. also they might should test drive their men.
> 
> 3]Having sex before marriage , or not having sex before marriage is absolutely no guarantee of what a person's attitude towards sex will be after marriage. This statement is worthless. there are no guarantees. There are probabilities. knowing yourself and your SO intimately, makes it more probable that you figure out if you like what they got, so to speak.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

FalconKing said:


> Indeed CB does his research.


all the fanboys in the world cannot make skewed research is better than none.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

jaquen said:


> But the screening is not working. Period. As much sense as it makes, and it does sound like basic common sense, the results are insufficient to back up the claim.
> 
> The vast majority of the estimated 40 million sexless couples in the USA alone had the test run prior to marriage.


If true, and I have no idea whether it is, that statistic tells me nothing. What I would want to see is a properly designed, statistically significant study of the percentages of those who did not have sex until after marriage who are currently happy with their sex lives compared to those who had sex before marriage. In referring to statistical significance, I include the requirement that all other variables are controlled for.

That's a bunch of statistics geek-speak, but it's the kind of stuff that's crucial to being able to reach a conclusion based on data.

But I have a broader point to make in my next post.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

anonim you could have combined both of those into one post with the edit feature. I see you are trying. I'm just trying to help you out. 

I would like to join your fan club too. Even though, I usually disagree with you i'm hoping you'll just ignore my past and let me join anyway. It's the mature thing to do right?


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

It's not incorrect

99% of men simply don't have women throwing themselves at them and dying to peel out of their panties for a 3 minute ride on their 5 inch penises* :rofl:

*ha, i am just on a roll today aren't i?

I know most believe that they're "a catch", but most also believe they're good in bed sooo.....
The fantasy typically doesn't match the reality 




jaquen said:


> It's an incorrect assumption because it supposes that 99% of guys are ugly, desperate, sexually deprived imbeciles who can't afford to turn down a woman.
> 
> It doesn't include the attractive guys who get hit on frequently, but want to stay faithful to their girlfriends/wives. Or the ones who just have standards.
> 
> ...


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## TamedVixen (Dec 6, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> My dear lady, that is how you interpreted my post. But you really don't have to defend your husband's decision to marry you, honestly, we're strangers and our opinions are hardly of any consequence in our lives.
> 
> I didn't marry a promiscuous woman because i didn't want to marry a promiscuous woman. Is that so hard to stomach?
> 
> ...


You can marry whomever you like. Just kindly refrain from making judgments about men who marry promiscuous women. Not everyone who does not take your path is not "smart".  Hope that's fair. 

I am no longer promiscuous because I changed my ways. Nothing for me to be angry now. 

The men who are promiscuous don't have to rationalize because _society does not condemn them for sleeping around, _ just like you said.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

aribabe said:


> It's not incorrect
> 
> 99% of men simply don't have women throwing themselves at them and dying to peel out of their panties for a 3 minute ride on their 5 inch penises* :rofl:
> 
> ...


I guess I'm trying to figure out if you really, honestly, truly believe that only 1% of men have ever been in the position to tell a woman "no"?


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

TamedVixen said:


> You can marry whomever you like. Just kindly refrain from making judgments about men who marry promiscuous women. Not everyone who does not take your path is not "smart".  Hope that's fair.


But aren't you the one that stated that educated successful men all want the same kind of women because they are ABOVE looking at certain things?:scratchhead:


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Well maybe 2% I guess lol,

But yes absolutely, the vast majority of men have never/will never have a woman desperately trying to sleep with them

Outside of their fantasies anyway :rofl:



jaquen said:


> I guess I'm trying to figure out if you really, honestly, truly believe that only 1% of men have ever been in the position to tell a woman "no"?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Well maybe 2% I guess lol,
> 
> But yes absolutely, the vast majority of men have never/will never have a woman desperately trying to sleep with them
> 
> ...


My brother, a university professor, had it happen to him in his office when a student dropped trau. Not sure if a grade was involved or not (no, he turned her down).

I had it happen to me, with a girlfriend from WAAAAAAAY back. I assure you, one look at my photograph would have you spitting coffee on the screen and calling "bull****".

So my two anecdotes vs. your gut feeling. I have no idea what a real random sampling of the population would reveal, and I suspect neither do you.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I did not marry a virgin.
> 
> What I did was date a nympho and marry a prude. I still suspect there was something in the wedding cake.


What you did was most likely make a judgement on your wife's "nymphomania" which made her feel as if she was being too sexually open and thus she felt that she had to be more of a prude to get you to like her.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Well maybe 2% I guess lol,
> 
> But yes absolutely, the vast majority of men have never/will never have a woman desperately trying to sleep with them
> 
> ...


Showing your age with this posts. Or just a lack of experiences. I think you've mentioned before that you have always had men pursue you. I guess I can see you why you say something like this. Your naive arrogance eludes you of reality though. Most of all my friends have had this experience, as have I. Any decent looking man who has a social life has had this kind of experience or at least been hit on by women.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

aribabe said:


> Well maybe 2% I guess lol,


You are too ****ing much. :rofl:



aribabe said:


> But yes absolutely, the vast majority of men have never/will never have a woman desperately trying to sleep with them
> 
> Outside of their fantasies anyway :rofl:
> 
> ...


I agree, the "vast majority" will not.

But even the studied minority is much higher than your percentages.

And if you're like me, and run in groups with a lot of above average looking men (it's an occupational hazard), you do see it more often.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Of course much of this debate depends on personal preference and sometimes religious belief and in that sense is irresolvable.

But when I said, somewhere way up there in this thread, that I favored a "test run" (I'm not sure I agreed with that term), I had something in mind other than having sex with every woman who walked by.

My number of sexual partners is on the low end from what I've read in various studies (and on this board). That's because I have always been serially monogamous. I have the silly, archaic, probably incorrect view that sex and love should be linked. Go figure.

All my relationships started out as friendships. That's part of a test run. In every case I knew the woman for more than a year before there was any romantic involvement. The relationships never overlapped.

In each case, I met the parents, visited the home, met the siblings, saw family dynamics, noted how the parents related to each other, noted how the parents treated me. All of that information was important to me and part of a "test run." My wife's parents have been married for 58 years and are still in love. They have great relationships with their children, are highly intelligent and have unimpeachable ethics. Same for my wife's brother, who has now been married for 28 years.

I would not have married without knowing all of those facts. By the same token and for the same reasons, I would not marry without knowing that--at the very least at the beginning--my potential wife and I were sexually compatible. I was not going to start with two strikes already against me. I saw by the example of my parents what a disaster that would likely be.

Maybe some of you were able to assure yourselves of sexual compatibility by talk. More power to you! (I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically.) I guess I'm too cynical and believe talk can be cheap. I needed to have first-hand knowledge before I would take the plunge.

I will confess that I would probably not have been interested in a partner with many, many prior partners (my insecurity more than anything else). I wouldn't automatically have ruled out someone with one partner prior to marriage--me. But no, I wouldn't have gone to the altar with a virgin. I'm too risk-averse.

I suppose there's another thing working in my mind. I would have the concern, if I had considered marrying a woman with no other experience, that she might wonder, 5 or 10 years down the road, whether she was missing anything. A modest bit of prior experience, as in the case of my wife, eased my mind.

Anyway, that's why, for me, a "test run"--in the perhaps more limited sense I've just described--was a necessity.

Carry on!


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

The bottom line, in regards to diminished sex after marriage, can probably be considered something hard coded into our brains. I remember reading once about a study done with primates in which they measured frequency of sexual activity. They would put a female with a male and sex started immediately, and near continuously, for a period of time (I don't remember the length of time) and then it dropped to nothing, not decline, not occasional, nothing. After monitoring the inactivity for a period of time, they would remove the female and put a new female in the cage, the sex started back up immediately and followed the same pattern.

So what does that mean? Well, at the very least we can say that male primates are hard wired to pursue new females vigorously and that they tend to lose interest over time.

And what does this say about the human male primate? I suppose it means that we, at our most basic instincts, want to procreate with as many females as we can; this makes sense in terms of the survival of our species.

In the meantime, while eons of time passes, we evolve into thinking beings with a conscience, and over time a social structure, and in that social structure, boundaries, and with boundaries come limitations, and with limitations come laws and social mores... all this, happening over tens of thousands of years, but guess what still sticks in the core of our brains along with other survival instincts?

Sex. Sex now! Oh look a new girl, sex now! Hey, here comes another one, sex now!

The thoughts are there, as deeply ingrained as breathing, automatic, unaware of it unless we aren't doing it, or if it's brought to our attention, but as "civilized" creatures, we're expected to form monogamous relationships and have families. We are also expected to be sexually active with each other and sustain that level of sexual activity (within reason) till death do you part.

*What's a man to do?*

Fortunately we aren't slaves to our core instincts, we are creative thinkers, we know how to work around such behavior, we can figure things out, we can try new things and we can adapt.

So, here we are.

T


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> I don't know if this is true in kingsfan's case in particular, but it's something that might be a backlash in some people's "maddona/*****" dichotomy that doesn't really get a whole lot of attention. Talk up the "marrying kind," get married and then the marrying kind actually means "the person who doesn't have sex anymore because those are the people you didn't look down on before."
> 
> *shrugs* Interesting point anony2.


This is actually quite sad, because there is some truth to this. I recently had a conversation with a coworker of mine who told me how he had his "freak" and his woman I asked him why he didn't want that to be the same woman. He told me he couldn't imagine the woman he marries doing kinky things with him and then being a mother/housewife. I think one of the worst things a man can do is make a woman uncomfortable about being sexual with him. Because in a sense you are rejecting her and that can leave deep scars in a relationship.

For all of you that will use this to see that's why it's better for a woman to have had a lot of sexual partners, that is not what I mean at all. My last gf had 10x the partners I had and I was the first man to make her squirt.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

I think I finally see the pattern...

And if you disagree, please tell me and most importantly, say WHY. 

So, from what I can gather, I don't think sex before marriage is the determining factor as to whether or not it gets cut off. Seems to not even be a factor from what I can tell. 
I think it depends on how open the couple is BEFORE marriage about sex. 

(and remember, I am telling this from a male's point of view)

For example, a woman that just has a lot of sex with her boyfriend, but never opens up about it, talks about her fantasies/wants/needs or anything, then she is going to cut it off after marriage because she got what she wanted. So no need to keep trying to get a guy to marry her, got that down.
But if she is willing to talk about it, talk about her needs and wants and fantasies, and all that wonderful stuff, then it is less likely she'll stop wanting sex because she enjoys it. 

Now if a woman is willing to talk about it even though she may be a virgin and want to have till marriage to have sex; if she is open to it, wanting it, talking about it thinking of how romantic or wonderful it is, then her drive is going to kick into 1st gear and go!...After a ring is on her finger.
But if she is a virgin, and bringing up sex with her is taboo, and she shuts down everytime it is brought up, and refuses to talk about it, never brings it up, then you better run, because it will be the exact same after marriage. 

So, opinions?


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> My dear lady


Do you have any idea how condescending that statement sounds?

Irrespective of how you meant to sound, starting a sentence this way is very patronising. Umless of course that is what you meant to imply, that the poster and other people have considerations that are not worthy of thought?


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:
> 
> Nope,
> But, if you want to be a little more coherent,
> ...


:scratchhead: So you think that because he posted a thread about different relationship models, you some how have a point? 

That makes no sense at all.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

TamedVixen said:


> You can marry whomever you like. Just kindly refrain from making judgments about men who marry promiscuous women. Not everyone who does not take your path is not "smart".  Hope that's fair.
> 
> I am no longer promiscuous because I changed my ways. Nothing for me to be angry now.
> 
> The men who are promiscuous don't have to rationalize because _society does not condemn them for sleeping around, _ just like you said.




And when did I judge your dear husband?

I judged myself to be smart not to have an LTR with a promiscuous woman. How does that equate to your husband not being smart? Each one defines smarts for himself. Do you agree? probably not.

Why do it then if you're so afraid that society is going to condemn you? And why get angry when it does? You had the freedom to do anything but you didn't realize that there were going to be consequences or rather the temptation was too great. And now you're complaining? How fair is that? Do you really think any man could have sex with you if you had said no?
You said you've changed your ways.. good...well...good for you. And you also say that you're not angry now, and I interpret that as you being angry at some point in time, before you married?


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

Well that's kind of how I see it, Broken.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> Do you have any idea how condescending that statement sounds?
> 
> Irrespective of how you meant to sound, starting a sentence this way is very patronising. Umless of course that is what you meant to imply, that the poster and other people have considerations that are not worthy of thought?


Patronizing or not, I do believe it is well within the confines of the rule book of this particular forum. You can choose to not respond if you don't wish to.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> I don't know if this is true in kingsfan's case in particular, but it's something that might be a backlash in some people's "maddona/*****" dichotomy that doesn't really get a whole lot of attention. Talk up the "marrying kind," get married and then the marrying kind actually means "the person who doesn't have sex anymore because those are the people you didn't look down on before."
> 
> *shrugs* Interesting point anony2.


My husband said something about me being a sex pest one time, and he was doing it playfully, but it hurt for a long time after that and it was impossible for me to ask for sex again. I felt that I had to shut it down because I thought he was saying I was coming on too strong.


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

She wasn't desperately trying to sleep with him, she just wanted a better grade. It's like a prostitute desperately wanting to sleep with a man because of the 100$ dollar bill in his pocket :rofl: It's not really the same 

Your girlfriend desperately wanting to sleep with you.... that's not really what i was talking about. That's kinda the norm. I mean if a man can't even get a woman he's with to want to sleep with him, he's got bigger issues :rofl:



Cletus said:


> My brother, a university professor, had it happen to him in his office when a student dropped trau. Not sure if a grade was involved or not (no, he turned her down).
> 
> I had it happen to me, with a girlfriend from WAAAAAAAY back. I assure you, one look at my photograph would have you spitting coffee on the screen and calling "bull****".
> 
> So my two anecdotes vs. your gut feeling. I have no idea what a real random sampling of the population would reveal, and I suspect neither do you.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> I think I finally see the pattern...
> 
> And if you disagree, please tell me and most importantly, say WHY.
> 
> ...


Sounds to me then it is dependent upon how she was raised. I think religion plays a HUGE part in that.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

FalconKing said:


> This is actually quite sad, because there is some truth to this. I recently had a conversation with a coworker of mine who told me how he had his "freak" and his woman I asked him why he didn't want that to be the same woman. He told me he couldn't imagine the woman he marries doing kinky things with him and then being a mother/housewife. I think one of the worst things a man can do is make a woman uncomfortable about being sexual with him. Because in a sense you are rejecting her and that can leave deep scars in a relationship.


Its called the madonna/wh*re complex. Well documented.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

aribabe said:


> I mean if a man can't even get a woman he's with to want to sleep with him, he's got bigger issues :rofl:


Truth (not universal, but still truth).


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Patronizing or not, I do believe it is well within the confines of the rule book of this particular forum.


I wasn't questioning the rules.

I was merely stating that to me your statement seemed very patronising.

And I suspect that many other people feel the same.

Whatever happened to love in your world Bjorn?

As far as I am concerned you can have all these pre concieved ideas in your head about what constitutes the perfect partner then out of the blue..... POW!! You fall in love with someone completely different.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

anony2 said:


> Sounds to me then it is dependent upon how she was raised. I think religion plays a HUGE part in that.


True. But are you saying that this disproves it, or complements it? Or is just a side point that shoul be referenced to help explain it?


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Its called the madonna/wh*re complex. Well documented.


Yeah. I told my friend that's what he had. I was just surprised that he admitted to it. Doing something like this causes your own problems in relationships. If your girlfriend or wife is doing this to you, she wants you and wants to please you. If you are a man that knocks that then you are stupid, among other things.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> True. But are you saying that this disproves it, or complements it? Or is just a side point that shoul be referenced to help explain it?


Compliments and most likely to help explain it.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I think Bjornfree and Aribabe should hook up and have a go at it.

And then make a reality show about the process.

It would so be worth an hour of my time once a week just to watch the ensuing ****storm.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> I wasn't questioning the rules.
> 
> I was merely stating that to me your statement seemed very patronising.
> 
> ...


Wysh I had you figured for an idealist. My wife was is an idealist too. I'm a coldhearted realist I suppose. I can honestly tell you that it wasn't until about 14 months after I first met my wife that I realized I actually wouldn't mind spending the rest of my days with her. Believe it or not I was my wife's first and only carefree relationship, one where the only thing the both of us promised each other was good sex and nothing else. Overtime, we found that we were actually compatible in other areas as well it didn't happen overnight and it didn't happen at first sight. What did happen at first sight was that I wanted to get into her pants and have a good "shag".

You can't start relationships on mere feelings, friend. You could probably even say that i fell in "love" with a lots of women in my lifetime if that is your definition of love. What happened was that I was attracted to her(my lady wife), I acted on the attraction, as the days went by I also found that I had an easy companionship with her. Then I proposed to her, shockingly simple.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I think Bjornfree and Aribabe should hook up and have a go at it.
> 
> And then make a reality show about the process.
> 
> It would so be worth an hour of my time once a week just to watch the ensuing ****storm.


Honestly though, I think we'd be fine. I'd be more worried about the ****storm happening in all the households that tuned in to watch the show.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

aribabe said:


> She wasn't desperately trying to sleep with him, she just wanted a better grade. It's like a prostitute desperately wanting to sleep with a man because of the 100$ dollar bill in his pocket :rofl: It's not really the same
> 
> Your girlfriend desperately wanting to sleep with you.... that's not really what i was talking about. That's kinda the norm. I mean if a man can't even get a woman he's with to want to sleep with him, he's got bigger issues :rofl:


So now we're into the qualification stage. Fine.

Perhaps you missed the WAAAAYYYYY back part. She hadn't been my girlfriend for 25 years, showed up out of the blue, and "desperately" wanted to sleep with me.

Is that another disqualifying circumstance?


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Its called the madonna/wh*re complex. Well documented.


Might have to rename that complex, given that Madonna probably isn't "Like a Virgin."


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

anony2 said:


> Sounds to me then it is dependent upon how she was raised. I think religion plays a HUGE part in that.


It can...but then there are some who are very conservative when it comes to religion, who are very open about sex... with their spouses. I have a couple girl friends who were raised in the church we all still belong to. We believe the same things, hold ourselves to the tenets of the church, etc...you know the drill there, I am sure. 

That said, I am pretty certain these two are not the type to bring toys or experiment with role play, etc. I am willing to try many things which would be outside the "norm" so to speak. It doesn't mean that either of us has an unsatisfying sex life. If we and our spouses are happy with our sex lives, that's what matters, right? These women and their husbands didn't "test drive" and yet, they are happy and satisfied.

I did have sex before meeting my husband, but it didn't make me any more experienced than he was (he was a virgin). And, of the two I had been with before him, one was a virgin and the other had been with at least 10 women before me... the virgin was better in bed. Guess what? My husband was a virgin...still better than the other two. No "test drives" either. In my case, virgin worked better for me.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> I think I finally see the pattern...
> 
> And if you disagree, please tell me and most importantly, say WHY.
> 
> ...


Everything here basically sums up a huge part of the problem.
The part highlighted was my wife.
Now, 
Lets suppose I decided to look at her as ** DEFECTIVE ** because she was a virgin at 26 yrs old. 
Because she wouldn't give me a " test drive" I guess that would have made me an ** open minded , cultured ** man.
Yes?

lol..,lots of BS arguments from the " anti virgin" brigade today...
Wonder who mare they trying to fool now?
Certainly not me. I've lived it and I know. Been married 17 years,and that's been 17 years of really great sex from a woman who was a virgin. She had absolutely no problem with sex, she just didn't want casual sex.
What about that is so difficult to understand?

Her body.
Her vagina.
Her sexuality.

Her decision to save sex until marriage.
I agreed with it because I saw someone that I could spend the rest of my life with. She was very open minded about sex.
There's absolutely no logic break in that.

But, I'll do just like Frenchfry:

*shrugs*
Everyone has a right to fool themselves.

Please continue.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

I still think that in all this discussion of virgin/experience some people are still missing the whole point about relationships.

it's all about love.

Perhaps as Bjornfree says I am an idealist but to me I couldn't care less how much or how little experience my life partner had.
All that counts for me is whether we love each other to the exclusion of all others.

If you have to start adding exclusions or requirements to your relationship then it is too much like a business contract.

I don't care how many partners my wife had previously to me as far as our relationship goes.
I don't know if it makes me a hypocrite but I do get jealous about the other men and that I didn't get to be 'Brad Manly' when I was younger. But I hope, and I am fairly sure, that doesn't impact on my current relationship with my wife other than trying to 'outdo' them.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> I still think that in all this discussion of virgin/experience some people are still missing the whole point about relationships.
> 
> it's all about love.
> 
> ...


No amount of love can help any overcome traumatic experiences or certain mindsets. And trying to outdo past lovers wouldn't matter with all that supreme love you give your wife. If a woman ever cheats or disrespects me I doubt my love will wake her up to her senses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

FalconKing said:


> No amount of love can help any overcome traumatic experiences or certain mindsets. And trying to outdo past lovers wouldn't matter with all that supreme love you give your wife. If a woman ever cheats or disrespects me I doubt my love will wake her up to her senses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No one who is truly in love with you would do that to you. Words are empty, it's the actions that show love.

I know... I'm an idealist. Happily.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaquen said:


> My wife and I waited. We waited for _many years_. In our long relationship we took two breaks, and were free to date/sleep with whomever we chose. Neither of us chose anybody, because we were just that connected and in love. There just didn't seem to be any point in dragging anybody else into the middle of our love story. Together, apart, it didn't matter, we were just each other's "it".
> 
> Why date at all? Because we knew that the only person we ever wanted to think about sharing this life with was one another. There was no getting away from one another. The love was that powerful, and the chemistry that deep.
> 
> ...


Love your post here Jaquen ....







...

I often WISH I could go back in time and undo some of my earlier inhibited ways - due to allowing some of The Church's teachings to hinder my sexuality....I feel it stole something from us.... I *despise* these things today (but on the other hand, what I saw in the world cheapened it )... so I was conflicted in my youth....


I am no longer ashamed to talk very openly about Sex....Nothing or anyone is going to put me back into that box again. I've come a hell of a ways. But yet...I still wouldn't change our Love story... We experienced it all side by side..learning & stumbling together ... We'd do it all over again in a heartbeat. 

I am very passionate about women coming out of these Repressive mindsets / prudishness - it does hurt marriages & causes undue suffering to many husbands. It should never be.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I am very passionate about women coming out of these Repressive mindsets / prudishness - it does hurt marriages & causes undue suffering to many husbands. It should never be.


Any chance you could figure out how to bottle and sell that?


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

I mean dude, it's your fantasy
You don't have to qualify it for me















:rofl:


Cletus said:


> So now we're into the qualification stage. Fine.
> 
> Perhaps you missed the WAAAAYYYYY back part. She hadn't been my girlfriend for 25 years, showed up out of the blue, and "desperately" wanted to sleep with me.
> 
> Is that another disqualifying circumstance?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

aribabe said:


> I mean dude, it's your fantasy
> You don't have to qualify it for me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gotcha. Don't let the facts hit you on the ass on the way out.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

WorkingOnMe said:


> All the men on TAM are 1% chick magnets, and all the women are married to men with 1% 8" penises. It's like a full on sex god storm in this place.


Been reviewing this discussion ...

I friggin' laughed out loud and had tears in my eyes after reading WorkingOnMe's comment.

Seriously, thanks for that.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I often WISH I could go back in time and undo some of my earlier inhibited ways - due to allowing some of The Church's teachings to hinder my sexuality....I feel it stole something from us.... I *despise* these things today (but on the other hand, what I saw in the world cheapened it )... so I was conflicted in my youth....
> 
> 
> I am no longer ashamed to talk very openly about Sex....Nothing or anyone is going to put me back into that box again. I've come a hell of a ways. But yet...I still wouldn't change our Love story... We experienced it all side by side..learning & stumbling together ... We'd do it all over again in a heartbeat.
> ...



And note that these are CHURCH rules. There is NOTHING in scripture that tells women to withhold anything from their husbands. In fact Scripture tells us to enjoy one another. You can withhold by MUTUAL consent it goes on to say but the key word is MUTUAL. A husband and wife should be passionate for one another. THAT is the proper Christian perspective on marriage. Anything else is just a man made rule.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

sandc said:


> No one who is truly in love with you would do that to you. Words are empty, it's the actions that show love.
> 
> I know... I'm an idealist. Happily.


I have an idealistic view of romance but I realistically know I can't have this with all women. Hence there are specific things I look for in a potential romantic partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Any chance you could figure out how to bottle and sell that?


I think she's going to write a book soon.


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Lol
Who whoa whoa

Somebody's getting snarky



Cletus said:


> Gotcha. Don't let the facts hit you on the ass on the way out.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Cletus said:


> I had it happen to me, *with a girlfriend from WAAAAAAAY back.* I assure you, one look at my photograph would have you spitting coffee on the screen and calling "bull****".





aribabe said:


> Your girlfriend desperately wanting to sleep with you.... that's not really what i was talking about. That's kinda the norm. I mean if a man can't even get a woman he's with to want to sleep with him, he's got bigger issues :rofl:





Cletus said:


> So now we're into the qualification stage. Fine.
> 
> Perhaps *you missed the WAAAAYYYYY back* part. She hadn't been my girlfriend for *25 years, showed up out of the blue, and "desperately" wanted to sleep with me.*
> 
> Is that another disqualifying circumstance?





aribabe said:


> I mean dude, it's your fantasy
> You don't have to qualify it for me





Cletus said:


> Gotcha. Don't let the facts hit you on the ass on the way out.





aribabe said:


> Lol
> Who whoa whoa
> 
> Somebody's getting snarky


I'd say understandably so, since he told his EXPERIENCE in this and you basically shot it down as if it was insignificant. Seriously, I'd say someone from the past showing up DECADES later would qualify. 

And I bolded the parts I am talking about. He said his girlfriend FROM "way back", NOT "years ago, my girlfriend". And when he chose to clarify it for you, you decided to imply that he only THOUGHT she was coming on to him? Yea, I'd be getting "snarky too"...oh wait, I DID get snarky with you a couple months ago....
Cletus NEVER said this was a fantasy he had. He stated only that *this has happened to him.* How does that equate to being "his fantasy"?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sandc said:


> And note that these are CHURCH rules. There is NOTHING in scripture that tells women to withhold anything from their husbands. In fact Scripture tells us to enjoy one another. You can withhold by MUTUAL consent it goes on to say but the key word is MUTUAL. A husband and wife should be passionate for one another. THAT is the proper Christian perspective on marriage. Anything else is just a man made rule.


I get all this, it IS in the *pre-marital* SandC that is so much of this problem, the *roots* start HERE....(how we handle ourselves)...that is the hinderence for countless women....these beliefs have a way of following us right into marriage.. ...this I can speak from experience. 

... I always feel so misunderstood [email protected]#$%^& 

I know it is all FREE reign once you are married... I fully get this and agree with you!! But like anything else in life... what happens before that starting point has a way of raining on us.... whether it is TOO much emotionless sex -before we find Mr right (& some struggle with the deep vulnerable connection)..... or in this ...REPRESSION (due to LUST shaming - women struggle to overcome this )... 

We dated for 7 + yrs before we walked down the aisle.... I wasn't going to have







at 15 ! Did I want to with every fiber of my body ....Oh MY .. this was my daily fantasy >>> 










The hormones were R A G I N G .....But all the teachings to NOT even touch (or their interpretation -let's say).. all the condemnation on LUST (better to pluck your eyes out) >>> screwed with my head, embedded my psyche ..... We touched anyway ~ we weren't going to stop either. I tried to push the dirtiness down. Masterbation talk - we never went there. 

GUILT /shame merry go round ... feeling God was displeased with me ....Then everything I seen in the world was corrupt ....all the hot sex on tv were unmarried (this used to bother me -even though it turned me on).... oral sex I associated with PORN... Even lingerie I associated with strippers ! 

A woman can not just turn a switch on her Wedding day after sitting under this for years in the church pew...for having sexual fantasies, for lusting after our boyfriends... Why did I take it all so seriously. (I think too much I guess!) I wanted to be the Good Girl. 

Does this make any sense, can any women understand this?? 

I get most don't give a sh** about religion, I tried to do right by my beliefs. Looking back, I would have been better off to NOT care so much, and just enjoyed what we shared. And I did for the most part, but I often looked at God as an Ogre at the same time. Again, this was conflicting. 

I do not feel our Creator expects us to not touch each other and enjoy some pleasure before we marry. If so , I think he is a Cruel Master for overloading us with these hormones to torment us. But on the other hand, I still feel strongly that Love & sex are meant to go hand in hand and worth waiting for . I don't regret this part. 



> *SandC said*: I think she's going to write a book soon


 Who would my readers be SandC ! Think about it...Christians think I am corrupt .....I've been thrown off 2 christian forums for talking about this...the 1st time I was told I was a sinner & needed to repent .....saying I didn't regret how we handled ourselves before marriage -even though my hymen was still intact on my wedding day. That was a real Joy. 

Then those outside of the church think I am nothing but NAIVE to even think my daughter won't be begging to have sex by the time she is of age.... that I should put her on birth control or I am a clueless uneducated Naive woman and it doesn't matter what she says, she will be having sex. 

My views are trying to bridge some kind of gap between believers and those more liberal minded in the Pre-marital, so less women will carry these repressive views INTO their marriages. 

Talk about a touchy subject, I get zero respect on either side, so I highly doubt anyone would want to read my take on this. But it's fun yakking on an open forum about it !


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## aribabe (Aug 9, 2012)

Maricha75: the ever vigilant TAM (self appointed) forum police
Righting wrongs and all that jazz
:rofl:

No, no
I'm only kidding
Thanks for pointing all of that out to me Maricha 

You're right, maybe it's not a fantasy to him



Maricha75 said:


> I'd say understandably so, since he told his EXPERIENCE in this and you basically shot it down as if it was insignificant. Seriously, I'd say someone from the past showing up DECADES later would qualify.
> 
> And I bolded the parts I am talking about. He said his girlfriend FROM "way back", NOT "years ago, my girlfriend". And when he chose to clarify it for you, you decided to imply that he only THOUGHT she was coming on to him? Yea, I'd be getting "snarky too"...oh wait, I DID get snarky with you a couple months ago....
> Cletus NEVER said this was a fantasy he had. He stated only that *this has happened to him.* How does that equate to being "his fantasy"?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TrustInUs (Sep 9, 2012)

Simply- you really should at least consider starting your own blog if you haven't already. You seem to have the what it takes to help mentor many women..... I wouldn't wish repression and spiritual shame on my worst enemy, but it's alive and well.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> ... I always feel so misunderstood [email protected]#$%^&
> 
> I know it is all FREE reign once you are married... I fully get this and agree with you!! * But like anything else in life... what happens before that starting point has a way of raining on us.... whether it is TOO much emotionless sex -before we find Mr right (& some struggle with the deep vulnerable connection)..... or in this ...REPRESSION (due to LUST shaming - women struggle to overcome this )... *


SA,
i think I understand what you're saying.
The answer is yes, there is a middle ground between. And i think that's what Sandc , Bjorn, Falcon King, Jacquen and a few others are saying.
People should choose the lifestyle they want, but be responsible and own your choices.


In my wife's case, she decided to remain a virgin partly because of religious, cultural [ she's East Indian] and my sexual history with women.
No doubt she was very sexually attracted to me, but she was not a sexually repressed woman. We used to talk about her sexual fantasies , we would make out but just not have sex. The only sex we had was phone sex, lol1
I would takl her through the actions and she would do her stuff and vice versa.
I knew she wasn't sexually repressed, she wanted us to do these things and she wanted it badly. But she had her beliefs and fears.
One of her main fantasies was sex on a deserted beach,I knew exactly where we could find a remote location with such a beach.
We went to that island resort for our honeymoon.
It was the most beautiful experience.
It was the most amount of sex I've ever had in a one week period.
Sex on the beach, sex in the open , sex upwards of four times per day.
We cancelled some of our island tours because she just wanted sex.

She was not sexually repressed, she just knew exactly what she wanted , how she wanted it and she was not interested in games.
She was/ is a hopeless romantic / idealist.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

TrustInUs said:


> Simply- you really should at least consider starting your own blog if you haven't already. You seem to have the what it takes to help mentor many women..... I wouldn't wish repression and spiritual shame on my worst enemy, but it's alive and well.


Thank you Trust in Us  I've never started a blog, wouldn't know where to start. Not long ago...I was pmed by a Therapist with his own Practice & website.... He asked if I had any Counseling experience (only to friends!)... and wanted to know if I would be interested in posting on HIS up & coming blog ... told me he felt I could help some people.. he liked a # of my thread topics. 

So hmmmm we'll see where that goes..he's been in touch. 




> *Caribbean Man said*:
> SA
> i think I understand what you're saying.
> The answer is yes, there is a middle ground between. And i think that's what Sandc , Bjorn, Falcon King, Jacquen and a few others are saying.
> People should choose the lifestyle they want, but be responsible and own your choices.


And everyone of them would also be condemned by the church's holiness standards for their premarital indulgences. NO?? (not all churches are created equal though).... See, basically the bottom line is this... the church encourages people to *JUST LIE.*. Their standards are *too stringent *and basically against nature itself. Actually in those days, girls were married off in Puberty so there wasn't any of these raging drives to control. So we have a real dilemma in this day & age , don't we. 

If all of you was truly honest about your roaming hands in your youth & lustful thoughts....even if you managed to keep the hot dog out of the bun.....you'd still be condemned...cause then it would fall under some darn *spiritual impurity* you see. At least this is the Christian forum's arguments !

Physically not going over a scriptural boundary is not enough...that's why Jesus tells us to pluck our eye out for LUST... >>>


> Matt 5:29...If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.


 What does one do with this - it's impossible. Other than deny their religion / cherry pick the scriptures we don't like / fight the meaning or basically be a hypocrite ? 

I'm bold enough (or stupid enough [email protected]#$%) to stand up and say ... "LOOK, this is what I did, I don't think it was so gawd awful bad, but you think I deserve Hell for this... ..Really???" ...and let them brow beat me with scripture. 

Listen...you KNOW I agree with you, Falcon King , your wife's way of dealing with the situation, Jacquen ....such posts always resonate with me. I like porn too, would you tell your Preacher that one & try to justify it ?? Come on now.... I probably would if the subject came out.... I wouldn't Lie.....I'd just let him condemn me, if that makes him feel good. Whatever. 

Your wife was not Repressed...does this mean her beliefs...

*1)* allowed for all you engaged in before you married...meaning you wouldn't have any issues telling the Pastor & he'd pat you on the back... or

* 2)* she didn't care what they taught, dismissed it and not let it bother her... feeling God will accept your indulgences -irregardless of what others think about it -to you -it was personal. 

I think Generally #2 is what everyone does... and Like I said... I took it too seriously... but doing that would make me feel like a Hypocrite - meaning I would feel better to just say "screw religion" cause I don't agree with it's beliefs. 



> No doubt she was very sexually attracted to me, but she was not a sexually repressed woman. We used to talk about her sexual fantasies , we would make out but just not have sex. The only sex we had was phone sex, lol1
> I would takl her through the actions and she would do her stuff and vice versa.
> I knew she wasn't sexually repressed, she wanted us to do these things and she wanted it badly. But she had her beliefs and fears.


 I know from reading other posts what you engaged in was THE SAME AS US... exactly... which to me is GOOOOD... but my church would still condemn it ... as I have explained. 

We did NOT openly talk about sex....we should have ... his hands did the talking... I can't even imagine him trying to do phone sex, he'd probably suck on skype !! Good thing he is not in the army. Oh well, we can't have it all. I'm the Flirting Queen. 

I don't know that their is much of an audience out there who has struggled with this as I have, since your wife didn't, Jaquen's didn't. Where are these women... likely on the Christian forums -or their husbands on there whining how they can't get them out of vanilla sex... My husband worked with a guy, when his wife got religious, the sex stopped, so he said, they ended up in divorce. 

What a shame.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Middle of Everything said:


> So what finally did it for you?
> 
> New attitude?
> New Woman/wife?
> ...



Always had the same attitude, was a bit plain in my teens but improved in my twenties.
Also turns out that being a good dad, career, faithful etc is quite attractive later in life.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> If " no one can see the future"
> Then what do expect to accurately deduce by " test driving " a woman or
> " poking your head " into her _before_ marriage?


Probability of incompatibility.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> The problem is in the relationship and in the *attitude *of the woman towards sex.
> Virginity does not automatically mean that a woman has a negative *attitude* towards sex.
> A woman having lots of sexual partners does not automatically mean that she has a healthy *attitude *towards sex.


The attitude of the man OR the woman can potentially be a problem, this is not a gender thing.

And how will you even know a partners attitude about sex if you don't have sex? They might not even know their attitude about sex.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> I still think that in all this discussion of virgin/experience some people are still missing the whole point about relationships.
> 
> it's all about love.
> 
> ...



Relationships are about love, yes. But there's so much more to it, a woman can love a junkie alcoholic barely functioning husband to the rafters but she's not going to have good satisfying life if she enables her husband's behavior or if she can't adjust to life( as she shouldn't) with him. Its the compatibility that matters and it matters a whole lot more that being in love. If you enter relationships solely on "these feelings" you won't get anywhere when they start to fade over time. Sure you can keep the spark alive and simmering but its not going to sustain itself unless you work on it. You've been married for a long time now, you do know that over the years the passion of the initial stages will grow dim and you have sudden surges, periods where you can't stop touching each other and periods where you just grow bored with your partner. But its all to be expected in a long relationship. Its during these stages of boredom that the little things you do will keep the flame alive and well and the compatibility is going to let you have a comfortable life outside of bed.

For example about two and half years ago I bought us one of those ramps and all of a sudden we were on fire, it was the best period of sex I had in the previous decade. So you see the lust is going to be there but is also not going to be an eternal honeymoon. Entering into a marriage with that mindset is only going to set one up for disappointment.

Honestly I could tell you that certain issues would have led me to grow resentful of her and promiscuity on her part would have been one of those issues. I tried to model my relationship based on the model my own parents had, both my father and mother were virgins and they still had a grand marriage till father passed away a few years ago. You don't really need to test drive anything to make a commitment and I agree with that. But what you do need to do is identify your own core values, your strengths and weaknesses before you get into a commitment where you are responsible for both the relationship and your wife and that is the reason for my being the way I am. I don't consider divorce as an option unless I am going through extreme abuse which would include infidelity etc etc etc. But what I don't subscribe to is that you always have to be happy to be in a relationship. Sometimes things happen in life where you become angry happy sad.

Its the couples who are willing to outlast their issues, they're the ones who are truly happy.

I don't care how many partners my wife had previously to me as far as our relationship goes.



> I don't know if it makes me a hypocrite but I do get jealous about the other men and that I didn't get to be 'Brad Manly' when I was younger. But I hope, and I am fairly sure, that doesn't impact on my current relationship with my wife other than trying to 'outdo' them.



Each man is different, we all have our own limits when it comes to what we expect from relationships and our lives and the people in them. I am a jealous lover and if her sexual history was "rich" it would drive me mad with jealousy. And I can tell you that I'm one of those men who wouldn't like the idea of competing with other men unless I play to win. People might say that the effort and participation is what counts and to a certain extent I agree but in the end the winners are the ones who are going to walk away with the crown. I'm just one of those people who make the conditions conducive to my victory.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

anonim said:


> The attitude of the man OR the woman can potentially be a problem, this is not a gender thing.
> 
> And how will you even know a partners attitude about sex if you don't have sex? They might not even know their attitude about sex.


I'm sure it's more common the other way round, but this was my experience.

I dated a lot when I was young and, despite being very interested in sex I put off doing the actual deed until I was married. I wasn't repressed, I didn't think it was wrong and it wasn't for religious reasons either; it was simply the way I had been raised.

My ex-husband was very demonstrative and sensual whilst we were dating and engaged, but I'll never forget the heartache and humiliation whilst on honeymoon because he apparently had no real desire to take it to the 'next level.'

After years of initiating things with him, I eventually had to leave for my own sanity.

Sexual compatibility is _vitally_ important to me in a relationship, and it isn't something I was ever prepared to leave to chance again.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I get all this, it IS in the *pre-marital* SandC that is so much of this problem, the *roots* start HERE....(how we handle ourselves)...that is the hinderence for countless women....these beliefs have a way of following us right into marriage.. ...this I can speak from experience.
> 
> ... I always feel so misunderstood [email protected]#$%^&
> 
> ...


I'm a Christian. There is nothing more important to me, more real to me, than my relationship with my Lord.

Having said that, I'd likely be kicked out of every single Christian site out there. I am far, far too open and liberal for most of those sites.

Too bad I can't seem to muster enough of a damn to even try and pretend to "belong". I believe in connecting to people in spirit from an authentic place, exactly where they are.

I totally "get" your ideas about marriage and sex, and it makes sense to me.

I would like to qualify that the way we're created, we mature into sex pretty early on. It's a relatively new phenomenon that human beings are waiting a decade, or longer, past sexual maturity to marry. The whole notion of "waiting" is very, very different in this society than in the past, and in other places in the world.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I get all this,
> 
> [lots of stuff written here]
> 
> ...


Whew! I feel like a tornado just went through my trailer park!

You're too hard on yourself. Write what you know. Don't try to convince. Just advise. You have good ideas. I think I somewhat understand you, kinda, sorta.

I think you could do it.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

jaquen said:


> I'm a Christian. There is nothing more important to me, more real to me, than my relationship with my Lord.
> 
> *AMEN!*
> 
> ...


I guess I'm saying, I feel ya.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sandc said:


> You're too hard on yourself. Write what you know. Don't try to convince. Just advise. You have good ideas. I think I somewhat understand you, kinda, sorta.


YES, I am hard on myself SandC ... I've lightened up with age.

I think the only people who will understand me & where I am coming from are those who are *HIGH DRIVE in their teens* who can not keep their hands off their BF's/GF's and take on guilt /shame for not living up to standards they are taught. 

A low driving woman who is content with hand holding & kissing would not struggle as I did. Her BF would !! But not her. *Cletus's premarital story comes to mind here*. 

There were other things going on... I hated my home life. I looked to my FAITH  to help me get out of that situation, so it mattered to me if my Maker was displeased with my behavior. 

Also yrs earlier I lived with my Mother who was having sex with a handful of men very casually..(I heard it all in the other room - very small house - I was just 9)...These men used her & threw her away ... she had a nervous breakdown..... SEX was blackened in my mind. I vowed at a young age that would never happen to me. Sex without commitment & love /user men /Players were written in stone - I wanted nothing to do with such a lifestyle... it ripped My own Mother from me, and I didn't want to end up like her, she never believed in LOVE after that. 

So living in a manner that was acceptable to God feeling this could bless my life was important to me... then all those hormones to deal with. WHat the hell is a young girl to do !! My Mother was next to a who*re who screwed her life to hell & back... I wanted to be different. I had a great guy... I tried to tow the line, I hated what I seen in the world - their way of using people to get off ....and the church was too damn strict & wanted us to be as pure as the driven snow. To me, they were both FvCKED UP and still are. 

I had NO role models, I had NO mentors...only my own mind & what I was being taught...and my Grandma next door ...she was old fashioned (well she was old !)... I loved her stories of her & Grandpa, great marriage ... I was influenced by her... but no, she never talked about SEX to me...I was on my own. 

Yes, I took things seriously.

Our children have a loving marriage to behold in Me & their dad, The only blunder we've had was in this (I could have been a freak much earlier in our marriage -but I still loved sex!).....it matters to me to not have my kids walk this path...but also to not walk a version of my mothers either. 

I hope this all makes sense, I think our childhood influences us in various ways, it can't be helped.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Whatever.
> 
> Your wife was not Repressed...does this mean her beliefs...
> 
> ...


The answer is that although she belonged to a church, she had her own beliefs.
Church didn't control her life.
She had her own values formed from her own experiences in life. Everyone in her church told her to stay away from me because of the type of life I lived.
But she *knew* what she wanted for her marriage / life, and she took the chance.
I think its important to be independent minded,that's what i like about her.
To be able to listen to all sides of an argument and state YOUR position.
Too many people are blind followers of one extreme or the next, nobody thinking about what is right for THEIR situation.
SA,
What's important is that you figure out what's best for your family's happiness. When your kids get old enough , just like you learned from your grandparents, 
They would have learned from you about love , sex ,marriage and life.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

We are very open about sex with our kids. We are a devout Christian family and we make it perfectly clear that sex is great and enjoyable and something wonderful to look forward to. But we also stress that God's plan is that we wait until we are married. Now, if we stumble are we going to hell? Hell no! 

This topic has actually given me more things to talk to my daughter about. The whole test drive concept. We're going to have discussions on that and why I don't think it's a good idea, why the Bible tells us it's not a good idea, etc. But also that ultimately the decision is up to her. She has to live with herself far longer than I do.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I am also a Christian. The church gets an F grade when it comes to effectively handling the sex issue with teens. The first thing they need to do, is get past the masturbation issue. I wasn't a teen with a raging sex drive at all, so this wasn't much of an issue for me, but I know my husband was. Our church condemned masturbation, called it a sin, blah blah blah. My husband was nineteen before he had _any_ sexual release of any kind, and once that switch was turned on, it was next to impossible to turn it off. 

He utterly regrets the sexual choices he made with the girls before me, and I think he wouldn't have made them at all if he hadn't felt guilty for masturbating. But the church just doesn't know how to handle it. 

That said: my husband has been my only sexual partner. And we had premarital sex. And I wish we hadn't. I intend to tell our children that the sex we had after marriage was MUCH more fulfilling, and fun, and more pleasurable than the sex we had before marriage. My husband wishes he had saved himself for me. I don't resent him or anything, since we all make mistakes in life. But I do believe that sex is sacred. I believe the sexual urges we have were given to us by God, but that doesn't mean we can or should use them any which way we like. I believe that there's a reason fornication is discouraged, and I believe that sex is the most beautiful when it's within the marriage relationship. But, just my opinion.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

sandc said:


> We are very open about sex with our kids. We are a devout Christian family and we make it perfectly clear that sex is great and enjoyable and something wonderful to look forward to. But we also stress that God's plan is that we wait until we are married. Now, if we stumble are we going to hell? Hell no!
> 
> This topic has actually given me more things to talk to my daughter about. The whole test drive concept. We're going to have discussions on that and why I don't think it's a good idea, why the Bible tells us it's not a good idea, etc. But also that ultimately the decision is up to her. She has to live with herself far longer than I do.


Such a good approach! Honestly, if my mother had done this, I likely would have kept my vow to remain a virgin until marriage. But sex seemed so...forbidden that, when I started dating my husband and felt sexual urges for the first time, it was so difficult to resist.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> Such a good approach! Honestly, if my mother had done this, I likely would have kept my vow to remain a virgin until marriage. But sex seemed so...forbidden that, when I started dating my husband and felt sexual urges for the first time, it was so difficult to resist.


As those urges were too much for my wife and I to resist. As they were too much for one of our church elders to resist. I believe this rule is really for our own benefit. I don't think it angers God that we enjoy one of His gifts. I think it angers Him when we use it in a hurtful way. To know for sure I'll ask him when I get there.

But I wasn't intending to take this down a religious track.

I know... too late.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaquen said:


> I'm a Christian. There is nothing more important to me, more real to me, than my relationship with my Lord.


 Sorry to say ...I had to throw the Baby out with the Bathwater on this one .. I'm more of a Free Thinker these days ..and I've never been happier or felt more ALIVE unto myself ..... but most of my friends are Christians & I love them! My views are more "*Deistic*" in nature......this does not war against my intellect. 



> Having said that, I'd likely be kicked out of every single Christian site out there. I am far, far too open and liberal for most of those sites.


 Ha ha , I am sure you would Jaquen ~ just like yours truly !! I am too OPEN for my own good sometimes. 



> I believe in connecting to people in spirit from an authentic place, exactly where they are.










How important it is. Authenticity is not so easy to find in this world. 



> I totally "get" your ideas about marriage and sex, and it makes sense to me.


 I appreciate that.  



> I would like to qualify that the way we're created, we mature into sex pretty early on. It's a relatively new phenomenon that human beings are waiting a decade, or longer, past sexual maturity to marry. The whole notion of "waiting" is very, very different in this society than in the past, and in other places in the world.


 How very true this is... and it's a dilemma. The "Silver Ring Movement" is a laughing stock to those outside of the church... 

And as parents, whether we are happy with our sexual choices of our past...or feel we jumped too soon, too hastily, whatever the case may be (as it's different for all).... let's be REAL with them, so they can be inspired by our story , or learn from it... 

Kids need to be able to TALK to their parents and FEEL an *understanding* from us. This makes us more relatable & is more likely to have their ears..and hearts. 



> *sandc said:* Now, if we stumble are we going to hell? Hell no!


 Here is where I got hung up SandC..

He didn't stick it in, we rode the fence, I reasoned that was not worthy of Hell. I knew if we DID do it, we wouldn't stop, so why *repent*... I'd be lying through my teeth anyway... and God forbid ....what if we were in a car accident & died right after having a glorious premarital banging !! ( Yes, I think too much, slap me!!)

Kinda like the Catholic going to Confession every week for a year for the same thing...he screwed his GF.... isn't this just a Joke. This is a pure act of futility...one could even say mocking God.

I don't believe like this... just saying the quandary some beliefs has over those who take it "seriously".


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Created2Write said:


> I am also a Christian. The church gets an F grade when it comes to effectively handling the sex issue with teens. The first thing they need to do, is get past the masturbation issue.


 Amen to this...

Here is an Overview of Masterbation on the most popular Christian SEX forum on the web..

Teens and Masturbation

Some of this article is quite humorous to me....actually suggesting that teen boys concentrate on Jesus hitting his hammer when they







..... 



> Either the Bible is eminently practical in how its principles can be lived out or it is not. It is possible to do everything with a spirit and attitude of thanksgiving to God, regardless of the task at hand. *A person can focus their heart on Jesus swinging a hammer at a construction site just as much as they can when entering the sanctuary of a church*. There should be no difference between sacred and secular thought.
> 
> Each thought should be given over to the control of Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5), and should be offered to God in a spirit of gratitude and joy. The only exception to this would be when the thought life has strayed out of its proper boundaries and has embraced sinful thoughts, such as the viewing of pornography* or lusting after another person*.


Seriously, any Christian men on here - before you married - who refrained from lusting in the head over some HOT voluptuous shapely beauty while doing this ...







???


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Amen to this...
> 
> Here is an Overview of Masterbation on the most popular Christian SEX forum on the web..
> 
> ...


Well, I'm not a man, but when I asked my husband this question, he said that it was entirely possible to masturbate without lusting. It was hard(pun intended), but it was still possible. I never masturbated until after marriage, so I've never imagined anyone other than my husband. But, he says it's totally possible...

Also, I think that Christians misunderstand the meaning of lust. Sexual attraction is a natural, God given instinct. Finding someone attractive and having feelings of sexual desire for them is certainly not lust, imo. I won't delve into what I do believe lust to be, since it's my personal interpretation of Scripture and I'm not here to preach.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Caribbean Man said:


> I think its important to be independent minded,that's what i like about her.
> 
> To be able to listen to all sides of an argument and state YOUR position.
> Too many people are blind followers of one extreme or the next, nobody thinking about what is right for THEIR situation.


 I like this :smthumbup: ... this is very important to me as a parent to instill in our children....we've never been the type of parents to shield them from different views/ ideas/ beliefs... I want them to *think *& *reason* for themselves... 

This may sound strange to some... but I even encourage our sons to ARGUE & debate with me for this very reason... 

No subject is off limits either. 

Even back in my youth.. when my mind was "divided"... I was always a* questioner* & didn't hide this fact. It caused me to get some strange looks at times.... but I still spoke my mind.



Created2Write said:


> Well, I'm not a man, but when I asked my husband this question, he said that it was entirely possible to masturbate without lusting. It was hard(pun intended), but it was still possible. I never masturbated until after marriage, so I've never imagined anyone other than my husband. But, he says it's totally possible...


 Well as a young girl I'd say I lusted & played all sorts of sexual fantasies in my head.... I thoroughly enjoyed this ~ then when I met my BF, it was all about him...as it should be...

If I was single, It'd likely be some hot Rock star...or some movie star in a romantic love scene....I don't see the big deal really.......I think it'd suck the life & enjoyment out of pleasure to not be thinking of something sexually minded...2 erotic bodies together.... I love a little fantasy. Sex therapists would say this is healthy. I choose that over the Church's views. 

Our oldest Worship Leader son.....still not married & waiting for love....we talked about this article a couple yrs ago....he told me he couldn't do this..... he can't imagine any guy that could... 

But at the same time, he is against lusting (thinking sexual thoughts about anyone that is not his wife). so in this way.. he feels like a sinner and this keeps him humble. So that is his viewpoint. 

Some define *LUST* as any woman who is taken in marriage...so if she is not, it is OK to think sexual thoughts. Various interpretations on this one... Can read some here - half way down this page...."*Handling feelings of LUST*" 

Jesus' Attitudes Towards Sex

I know all of this got sidetracked, but Religious beliefs DO play a role in many who CHOOSE to remain virgins till marriage, this fact can't be denied, so how one handles these beliefs and if they mess with your mind (in a hindering fashion).... it's a worthy issue. 

My husband wasn't a Christian.. he "jacked" to a huge supply of Playboy magazines under his bed....he read the articles too - so he told me....and I'll be the 1st to say ...I think this was perfectly healthy for him....this was his only learning/ education to know what to do with a woman... He never felt guilty about looking at naked eye candy... He told me ....once I started sticking my hands down his pants, he stopped....







to Playboy Bunnies... and even in marriage he still enjoys looking but he always waited for me... 

This works for me.


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## husbandfool (May 20, 2012)

Who cares if your spouse is a virgin. Really! 
Do you love them or not???
If not, then move on. If yes, then stop complaining.


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## FalconKing (Aug 8, 2012)

husbandfool said:


> Who cares if your spouse is a virgin. Really!
> Do you love them or not???
> If not, then move on. If yes, then stop complaining.


Did you read ANY posts??


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

husbandfool said:


> Who cares if your spouse is a virgin. Really!
> Do you love them or not???
> If not, then move on. If yes, then stop complaining.


You make love come across like some kind of a burden. Something that ties you down. Also like a tool to give someone a guilt trip. IMO.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

husbandfool said:


> Who cares if your spouse is a virgin. Really!
> Do you love them or not???
> If not, then move on. If yes, then stop complaining.


I don't think anyone is complaining on here... This is a subject, just like any other that people contemplate in their heads, in their hearts and for various reasons in their youth...The OP is a single man... he is looking for others experiences & how it played out. 

Is their wisdom in others life experiences... sure there is !! He is getting some idea what to look for on both sides of the aisle. 

Your post is very flippant as to thumb your nose at those who may care to contribute to the conversation. 

I find it disheartening personally.


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