# Wife's EA: Is she really in denial, or just lying



## island_of_one

My wife is has been having an emotional affair for the last two years with a close friend from HS who was an exch. student from Germ.any. They dated briefly before settling in as good friends. They fell out of contact for about 15 years before reconnencting two years ago (after I setup up a Facebook account for my 20yr reunion). He lives in Germ.any. 

I knew of their contact and frequent emails, but I didn't discover the close nature of their friendship until 1-1/2 years ago when I found some early emails she had printed out and hid. Much to my surprise (we were high school sweethearts and are each other's only serious relationship and physical partners), I discovered that my wife considered OM her first love and over the years had thoughts of "what if" she and OM had ended up together.

So, I confronted her and she claimed that I misinterpreted her emails, they were just friends, yadda, yadda, yadda. And, thus began the long battle began as to whether she was doing anything wrong and whether it is an emotional affair. I immediately started snooping in her email to find out what was going on. I found things that I didn't like but no really convincing evidence of an affair. Between the emails and my wife's behavior, I viewed her relationship with OM as being more than friends but less than lovers. 

We have since gone through cycles of fighting over the issue. I pushed for no contact a year ago, but she refused as she insisted there was no threat. As I didn't feel I had strong enough evidence, I did not want to risk her resentment if I forced her to give up something valuable that she truly felt was OK. 

The problem I have had is that their relationship is not a full blown, out of control, 1000 texts/day sort of affair. They have kept things right in the murky area between clearly OK and an obvious affair. They aren't discussing sexual interest in each, they don't express romantic love for each other (AFAIK), and my wife didn't become more distant from me after starting her correspondence with OM (more on our relationship below). The single biggest topic they discuss is OM's romantic pursuits. 

Here's what I do know: 

- Even though I have strenously objected to her "friendship," she continues it anyway- with the closed doors just shut more tightly. 

- My wife built a wall around the relationship. Email is always kept logged off. Her responses to my questions are always to downplay frequency and level of connection. She reacts defensively whenever I question the topic or her honesty on the matter. Mostly lies of omission, and just a few lies of commision (that I have caught anyway). 

- They share lots of intimate details, feeling, hopes, etc. Even she admits that they are close confidants and best friends. They have zero boundaries on what they will discuss. She tells him everything, and doesn't confide in me at all anymore. 

- From reading my wife's emails, it is clear that she cares very, very deeply and thinks the world of OM (see example below). Definitely beyond what I am comfortable with for an opp. sex friend. 

- She recently left her email logged in for a couple weeks, and I was able to pick up on some clues. The recent emails were of a more personal and emotional content. She had recently told me the emails were maybe once a week, but were in fact 3-4 per week. 

- She acknowledges that she Facetimes with OM, but lies about the frequency (which is almost every week these days according to my recently acquired VAR). She has always deletes her FT call history. 

Here is a quote from a recent email from my wife to OM in response to a disappointing turn of events in OM's dating life: 

_"As you are aware, there are a myriad of things I would like to give to you, most all of which are accompanied by a myriad of reasons I can't. But there is one gift nothing (not time, distance, or any situation) would stop me from bestowing if I could. The only thing that stops me is that lack of a magic wand. If I had that wand though, I would make your #1 (whomever you decide that is) see you through my eyes. It would only take a moment, and would only require a glimpse. "_

I have two takeaways from this. My wife thinks that if any other woman saw OM the way my wife does, then the other woman would immediately fall for OM. This is the probably the most convincing email snippet I have that shows that my wife has feelings for him beyond friendship. Also worth noting that my wife is not planning on being his #1 choice (i.e. not planning to leave me for him). Do my interpretations seem fair? 

Here is our marital background. I am 40, she is 39. We have been married 19 years and have 2 kids (10,7). I work hard (45+hrs/week) and my wife stays home. Prior to kids, marriage was generally good and was at a high point right before our first child. But, we have drifted apart since having kids. Usual culprits: busy with kids, stress from my work, no family support locally, limited opportunities for “us” time, and just generally not meeting each other’s needs. Over the last year+ of research, I now understand that all of this is fixable (at least, once the EA is gone).

As it is now, our own issues plus the fight over the EA have brought us to the brink of thinking of separation. We both want to work things out. Currently, I have a NC demand on the table. My wife countered with offering complete transparency (I can set the terms) as long as they can still keep in touch. She is out of town at the moment, and the ball is my court to decide whether any compromise is possible. 

Which brings me to my questions....

- Is it possible that she is really just in denial to herself that her friendship is out of bounds? Or, does she know full well that she's in an affair? 

- If she has really convinced herself that it isn't an affair, will a forced no contact result in deep resentment from her? Or, will the fog lift and she'll eventually see the error of her ways?

- While her behavior toward me (secrets, lying, etc) is clearly intolerable, is it worth trying the compromise approach first if she opens up all of her communication with OM? I don't see it being a viable solution long-term, but is it worth considering as a short term step? 

Thanks for any comments and suggestions!


----------



## OldWolf57

NO CONTACT ever AGAIN !!!


----------



## the guy

Your wife is in an emotional affair and you tolorated it for almost 2 years and now you want her to stop. Good luck!

Stop sharing your wife and tell her you will buy her a ticket to Germany. I bet the OM will love that. Now she will be his problem

Is the OM married? If so it might be time to contact his wife or girl friend.

I think you stop worring about her and just tell there is more to a marriage then this and life is to short to be sharing your marriage with her "friend". Ask her to leave, she can do what she wants and give her a big smile. 

You can't control her or make her face a dam thing, but once she see how serious you are in moving on with out her, then maybe she will think twice about how fragile her marriage really is.

Ask her to leave and start helping her pack, then maybe she will get a clue on how confident you are in letting her go.

I think she figures you aren't going any were so why should she stop...why should she change...she hasn't faced a real consequences in over year and half.

Hell brother I would have cut her off after a month of that kind of crap. But I'm just a guy trying to protect my marriage and if the tough love I have to offer my chick..and she doesn't like it, then she knows were the door is.

I understand you love her man, but please have some self respect for your self and stop sharing your wife.


----------



## alte Dame

This is clearly an EA and she has to go NC if you want to recover your marriage.


----------



## jnj express

You have been replaced emotionally----do NOT NEGOTIATE---she goes NC, totally transparent, and starts to spend the time/mental time she has for him---on you and the family

You tell her---point blank---enuff is enuff----either she is going to be married and follow a proper married script---which means there are no other men in her life---for any reason---or D, goes on the table

Also you might suggest to her she get a job---as she has way to much time on her hands---and then, you won't have to work 45+ hours a week, and the 2 of you can spend quality time together

You have not put her into the position, where she has to decide, is her emotional life with her lover worth losing her family/husband/kids/quality of life, over

You need to sit her down, and state quietly, but firmly----she ends this now and forever---she sends a NC e-mail, with you watching it go----and she opens up everything to you---the NC, and e-mail, go within 48 hrs---she does not get time to think about it

You also have to know she may go deeply underground, so you tell her if she does----she will, then and there be looking for an atty to defend a D, action----you might also hand her the want ads, when you talk to her----and DO NOT BACK DOWN---this is your future, you are defending----remember it is a very thin line tween friendship and love, same for EA and PA.


----------



## Will_Kane

She is in denial. She believes that because she is in complete control of her emotions, and is not being romantic (as she sees it) with the other man, that she is not in an emotional affair. She looks at it like she is no closer with other man than she would be with a really close girlfriend.

A forced no contact will result in deep resentment UNLESS she understands your viewpoint and acknowledges fully how valid your viewpoint is. She has to be made to see it as you do, or else she always will resent you. It's doubtful she's going to see the error of her ways on her own.

The compromise is worth a try, but not as you worded it. In addition to you being able to see all communication, you must have an agreement that if you catch her deleting or hiding things from you, that she will cease all contact. In addition, she has to share her deepest thoughts with you BEFORE she shares them with other man. As close a "friend" as other man may be, as her husband, YOU have to be her closest friend. Also, she cannot share her feelings about your marriage or intimate details of your marriage with other man, only with you. That must be part of the compromise.

My belief is that if other man showed a romantic interest in your wife, it would not be long before she started to reciprocate.

You posted: *- They share lots of intimate details, feeling, hopes, etc. Even she admits that they are close confidants and best friends. They have zero boundaries on what they will discuss. She tells him everything, and doesn't confide in me at all anymore.*

Have you discussed with your wife how you, as her husband, would like to be the one she shares everything with, and that you feel disrespected that she chooses to share her deepest thoughts with some other male, but not with her husband? 

Have you asked her if she thinks it's normal that a spouse would choose a friend over their marriage?

Does she have any girlfriends?


----------



## jfv

To your first question, whether she knows it or not does not change how you react to it. You have to treat her like an addict. She is addicted to the OM. She needs to go cold turkey in order for the affair to end. 

While in this state she is not capable of protecting your marriage. She needs you to man up and put your foot down once and for all. She will probably resent you for a while, but so what? She might even leave you for the OM but wouldn't that be better than being in a three way? 

Don't let fear keep you from taking control and doing what needs to be done. The ONLY shot she has of her fog lifting and getting back to the marriage is YOU forcing her to choose and enforcing the no contact. 

There is no compromise in a situation like this. It is not a short term solution either. You'll just be further enabling the affair. You've allowed it to go on too long. It is going to be alot harder now than it would have been a year ago. There is only one way out of this for a man who loves his wife and respects himself. 

Transparency is for making sure that the Wayward spouse is NOT continuing or starting an affair. It is the Contact not the Content that is at issue with emotional affairs. Although she has crossed many lines at this point when it comes to the content. 

As long as this continues, you are in a threeway. Your marriage can probably survive her resentment. It definitely won't survive a third party. 

You are currently sharing your wife with another man. Is that what you signed up for? If not, STOP IT NOW. 

Btw, where is she now?


----------



## walkonmars

Posters have it right. It is an EA & NC is the first step. Before you "go there" you have to have think this through. She's going to accuse you of trying to exert control over her. 

No you are not. And she can't control you. You see her activity with an old boyfriend as a threat to your family. She doesn't. Tell her that when you start having lenghty intimate relationships with your old flames she can take whatever action she deems necessary - just as you are prepared to do now.

Tell her this issue IS that important. To you, and your children. You are not willing to stand by while she forms even stronger emotional bonds with anothet man - no matter how far away he lives.

But you have to be prepared to take action.


----------



## jnj express

No compromising---here----mge's DO NOT CONSIST OF 3

She drops him entirely, or she gives up her mge----her choice, and she doesn't get time to think about it

You must be very harsh about this----it is your mge/family you are protecting--------no more game playing---there is an extra man in your mge---and he needs to be gone---NOW


----------



## Tony55

You're in trouble my friend, she's way too into it emotionally to just quit at this point, sure, you can MAKE her stop, but that won't end it, that'll compound the problem. The FaceTime is particularly troubling.

There's a lot of factors in play here, including age, distance, the illusion of a more perfect time in her life (youth), innocence, etc. This isn't going to resolve without professional help in my opinion.

You can take a hard line approach, and it might work, but based on what you've written, I don't think it will. Here's the thing, has your wife done anything you don't think you can live with yet? I'm thinking no. And because of that, I think you're afraid you'll kill any chance of fixing the problem if you come at it with a full frontal attack.

Tell her the two of you need to get professional counseling. Do not try to kill her contact cold turkey, let an unbiased third party ease her into the of the reality of the situation. Do not be the bad guy, don't take away her pacifier, let the counselor do it.

Listen, what you have going for you is their distance from each other, so theres a different sense of urgency in your approach then there would be if he lived down the street, use this to your advantage, but do not delay any further with getting professional help in this.

T


----------



## Shaggy

She's having two romantic intimate relationships at the same time and that is one too many.

She's gonna fight it like hell, because she loves having two men who want her, but she's flat out Emotionally cheating on you.
,
You both should read Not Just Friends, though I think she clearly knows her feelings are way beyond friends and she has convinced herself it's ok so long as she doesn't have sex with him.

Btw, given time they will eventually have sex. She will eventually begin to see you as the evil obsticle keeping their true love apart.

Ex lovers and especially first loves can never ever ever be friends or ronnect.

You will have to draw the lie in the sand and refuse to have her having an emotionally intimate relationship with any other man.

Be aware, she very likely will take it underground to keep it going.

Find a MC that knows about emotinal affairs.


----------



## SadandAngry

You are married to an addict. Treat her as such. You cannot believe what she says, because she will lie to keep what she wants. You cannot nice her out of it, you cannot negotiate with her, you cannot treat her as if she is rational, because she is not. She has.made a mistake, and she will not see it until she gets 'clean' after months of strict NC. You will need to watch her like a hawk to verify she stays NC too.

You'll need to redefine the boundaries inside your marriage too. Privacy means shutting the door to have a bodily function, not denying access to any and all accounts (email, social media, devices, etc.), no deleting messages or histories, NO SECRETS! in short. By agreeing to these sorts of things, you have enabled her. I think you fear that drawing the line will push her away, well wake the f up dude, she is already away! You can't make it any worse than it already is by standing up for yourself and your marriage! If she does something drastic, it isn't your fault, and it was going to happen anyway. It sounds to me like she might just have the sense to pull herself out of it with your help. It will test your love, your limits, and your self respect, because she is in deep. You've been betrayed massively already, and it won't end smoothly probably. That's why you will have to be strong, and hyper commited.


----------



## island_of_one

Wow! Thanks for all of the support and insight. During this ordeal, I have certainly made my share of mistakes, but one of the biggest was not posting here sooner. 

I’ll try to answer the questions asked and clarify a few things. 

- OM is not married and does not have a serious girlfriend. He has someone he keeps around for “benefits” but does not have long term interest in her. As I mentioned, the single biggest topic discussed in emails with my wife is his pursuit of the perfect companion. 
- My wife has a very close girlfriend with whom she has been best friends since middle school. My wife is currently visiting GF in N.M. and returns home tomorrow. 
- I have read Not Just Friends (walls/windows analogy is great) and asked my wife to read it (which I don’t think she has done). I should have demanded that she read it….though I doubt it would have convinced her of anything. I have explained the basic concepts to her to no avail. 

Will_K: 
I think you described my wife’s perspective perfectly. She feels that she is in control and that the “friendship” is exactly like what she would have if it were with another girlfriend. But, you are probably right that if OM pursued her romantically, she’d reciprocate. Fortunately, OM seems to be satisfied having a confidant and has not expressed interest in more than that (AFAIK). My fear is as you stated- if she really is in denial and can’t understand why her relationship with OM it so damaging to me, then her deep resentment would be the final straw in ending the marriage. I have been trying unsuccessfully for over a year to get her to see my viewpoint. It has taken a year just for her to get the idea that she is hurting me with her actions. I have expressed that a lot of my pain is from her sharing intimate thoughts with him (and her GF) instead of me. Of course, she denies sharing such things with him. If I opt to consider a compromise, I will include your suggestive conditions. 

A couple posts mentioned seeking professionally counseling. That is exactly what I did year ago when my NC request was not answered. I had hoped to use the MC to set her straight. But, at the time we started going, I did not have the insight into her behavior that I do now. I had seen nearly all her emails for the first year (Oct 2010 into Jan 2011), but her feelings were never directly expressed in that time period. There was lots of speaking in code and reading between the lines, but nothing that she wouldn’t have plausible denial for. I only knew of a couple flat out lies (ex: lied when she told me she did not email OM while she was visiting GF last Nov). So, I didn’t have overwhelming evidence, and my wife had a host of seemingly heart-felt rationalizations which all had some degree of truth to them. Counseling really did more harm than good, and we have stopped/started a few times. As long as wife was not being open, there really was no point. I think our MC understands EA’s reasonably well, but I’m not sure she has really worked with a lot of couples on resolving them. 

In the last month I have caught on to the Facetime activities, have a few examples of bold faced lies, and seen a small number of her emails for first time since January. With all of this new info, I have now erased my last percentage of doubts as to whether it is truly an affair as opposed to disrespect and a dis-agreement on boundaries. I think I may have finally convinced the MC. I met a couple weeks ago and revealed the FT activities. I go this week (Wed) and have the recent emails to discuss. The emails are from a couple months ago, but I was only able to pull data from an iTunes backup while wife has been out of town this last week. Assuming MC buys in, my plan is to have wife go with me next week and have a “no more secrets” intervention. As suggested, I am hoping the MC can be the bad guy for me. I think my wife is not so far gone that she can’t be brought back with help. We’ll see…


----------



## Emerald

The memory of our "first love" is very intoxicating. She is feeling all of those old feelings for the "cute" foreign exchange "boy" all over again.

The only reason it is not a PA is distance. This man wants to have grown-up sex with your wife. He is a threat to your family & needs to step aside.

I think you can save your marriage & family but the only way is no contact with the enemy.

Good luck. Damn Facebook.


----------



## MrK

Did anyone answer your question? We all know it's an affair, but does she? 

My answer is "of course she does". So once she reads the materials that have been recommended to you, and accepts that it is obviously an affair, her next step will be to claim it was an accident. She didn't know it was infidelity. 

To that I also say "poppyc.o.c.k". She's having her affair right in front of you and she knows she's doing it. Stop this nonsense, then be sure she takes ownership of it. This is no accidental affair. It's full blown and it's deliberate.


----------



## Wolfman1968

I don't want to be too much of a cynic here, but are you sure that the other guy didn't travel to N.M. too?


----------



## thunderstruck

island_of_one said:


> As suggested, I am hoping the MC can be the bad guy for me.


F**K that. You need to be the bad guy here. Contact the POSOM. Tell him that you see him as a predator on your family, and you will do whatever it takes to protect your family. Tell your W to pick, him or you, it will no longer be both. If she can't decide, you decide for her by starting the D process.

You can't nice guy your way out of this one.


----------



## island_of_one

Thanks for all of the input. Most seem to be in the immediate NC camp with a couple echoing my concern of resentment after a hard line approach. It sounds a lot like the argument that has been going on inside my head. Certainly my nice guy tendencies have not helped things (wrt to EA or even pre-EA). From a detached, logical point of view, going NC is a clear answer. But living within the relationship and facing the person you love can make it difficult to pull the trigger on something that will cause suffering. My wife is the sweet, carrying type that one would never think could have an affair (if such a person actually existed). It is easier to believe that she’s in denial than she is knowingly plotting against me. 

I am pretty sure that OM is not in NM. My wife is staying at her GF’s house, and GF is a supporter of our marriage. While my wife has probably convinced her GF that she’s not doing anything wrong, I doubt that GF would enable an illicit meeting. And, I don’t have any reason to think that OM is interested in enough in a physical relationship to fly over for a few days where he’d have to share time. But, one never knows. I have been using iCloud’s find my phone to track my wife’s whereabouts periodically. So far, she has been where she has supposed to be (which is mostly at the house). 

WRT to the OM, he is certainly not a friend of my marriage, but he hasn’t been the pursuer of closeness that my wife has been. I really don’t get his side of this besides having absolute support from my wife no matter what he does. Apparently, the woman in his office flock to him for advice, etc. If I didn’t know otherwise, I would think he is gay. In fact, his boss at work actually suggested it. As for my wife, her feelings are beyond friends but I don’t think sexual interest is a driving factor for her. She is extremely attracted to him as a person, and any romantic/sexual interest that exists is a byproduct of that.


----------



## cantdecide

island_of_one said:


> Thanks for all of the input. Most seem to be in the immediate NC camp with a couple echoing my concern of resentment after a hard line approach. It sounds a lot like the argument that has been going on inside my head. Certainly my nice guy tendencies have not helped things (wrt to EA or even pre-EA). From a detached, logical point of view, going NC is a clear answer. But living within the relationship and facing the person you love can make it difficult to pull the trigger on something that will cause suffering. My wife is the sweet, carrying type that one would never think could have an affair (if such a person actually existed). It is easier to believe that she’s in denial than she is knowingly plotting against me.
> 
> I am pretty sure that OM is not in NM. My wife is staying at her GF’s house, and GF is a supporter of our marriage. While my wife has probably convinced her GF that she’s not doing anything wrong, I doubt that GF would enable an illicit meeting. And, I don’t have any reason to think that OM is interested in enough in a physical relationship to fly over for a few days where he’d have to share time. But, one never knows. I have been using iCloud’s find my phone to track my wife’s whereabouts periodically. So far, she has been where she has supposed to be (which is mostly at the house).
> 
> WRT to the OM, he is certainly not a friend of my marriage, but he hasn’t been the pursuer of closeness that my wife has been. I really don’t get his side of this besides having absolute support from my wife no matter what he does. Apparently, the woman in his office flock to him for advice, etc. If I didn’t know otherwise, I would think he is gay. In fact, his boss at work actually suggested it. As for my wife, her feelings are beyond friends but I don’t think sexual interest is a driving factor for her. She is extremely attracted to him as a person, and any romantic/sexual interest that exists is a byproduct of that.


Most guys on this forum will tell you the same thing about their wives or ex-wives. " My wife is the sweet, carrying type that one would never think could have an affair". It happened to me and I said pretty much the same thing. Cut this thing off before it goes any further. Don't be nice. Be hard and make sure it ends. If your wife can't see that it's hurting you.........well, you'll see where it goes.


----------



## Hicks

You can't mess around with speaking to her any more.
Unless you want to be married to a woman who loves another man, it's time to give her the old tomato (ultimatum).


----------



## MrK

island_of_one said:


> It is easier to believe that she’s in denial than she is knowingly plotting against me.


Is it easier to believe that because she is stupid and ignorant in most aspects of life? Or is it hard to believe because you don't want to? There is NO WAY she doesn't know this relationship is unhealthy.

NO WAY!


----------



## Saki

I think you better call up her "friend" in NM and verify the amount of time she stayed there.

Everyone else who's had their wive's cheat on them (myself included) would have told you "oh there is no way in hell she'd arrange a secret meeting with another man to **** him silly..." yet low and behold that's exactly what happened.

Here's how you handle marriage counseling: You clearly state what you will accept in marriage and what your needs are.

The only thing that matters is what YOU will accept. 

Then there is no ambiguity, no arguements about semantics (ie "oh well it's not an affair"), no bull****.

You come first, or she walks out the door.

Doing this is NOT as scary as it seems.


----------



## TRy

island_of_one said:


> OM is not married and does not have a serious girlfriend. He has someone he keeps around for “benefits” but does not have long term interest in her. As I mentioned, the single biggest topic discussed in emails with my wife is his pursuit of the perfect companion.


 Wow it is amazing how affairs always follows the same pattern. If the other man is married, then the marriage is almost over. If the other man is not married, then it is not serious with his girlfriend. They do this to keep the target thinking that they are their only true love and thus hooked. The other man is telling her that he is all hers and that she does not have to share him with anyone. She waits for his every communication with anticipation. When it comes, the drugs go off in her brain that she has become addicted to. 

If you read "His Needs, Her Needs" you will see that although sex is the number one need of men, it does not even make the top list for women. What does make the top list for women is conversation and this other man is meeting one of the top need of your wife instead of you. Although they enjoy sex, women primarily have sex with a lover to meet his needs more than hers. Because he is meeting her needs instead of you, he has displaced you in her heart. You are a paycheck, caregiver and father to her children, but you are not her lover, he is. 

When she got married to you, she took a vow to "have and to hold", meaning that she promise to let you have all of her including her heart. She also took a vow to forsake all others. She is breaking both of those vows. If you are fearful that she may pick him over you if you take a stand that it is either him or you, do not be. The sad fact is that right now she is already picking him over you. The real question for you is that you need to decide if being her meal ticket but not her lover is good enough for you. 

Her compromise will not work. Until she goes full no contact, you will never have a chance to get back into her heart and be her lover. I say go for it and demand all of her or none of you. You matter. There is someone out there that would thank God every day if they could have you as their husband and lover. If she does not appreciate you, find someone that does. You have been faithful for so long that you do not understand that where young women have the edge in attracting partners over young men, men of your age are in big time demand. For you to have a chance at all of your wife's love, you must be willing to end the marraige and mean it if she will not give it to you. Her actions show that she does not respect you and no woman can be in love with someone that they do not respect. Respect is not given, it is earned. Take back your self respect and demand no contact right now. If she tells you that she will resent you for doing this, tell her that she needs to either get over it or leave you, that you will no longer settle for being just her meal ticket. 

You sound like a nice guy (too nice in fact). You do not deserve this. I am sorry that you are her. Be well and good luck.


----------



## Acabado

I gave no doubt you know the answer here:
You can keep sharing you wife nad monitoring it or you can choose seld respect. 
The real issue here is you suspects she will go underground and won't renounce ever to OM so you will forced to divorce her if you push.


You know damm well the choice you must give her:
a)
-NC letter
-Complete transparence
-MC
-Not just friends.
-Steps to repair the damage and colaboration to rebuild the marriage.

b) Divorce.


----------



## The Middleman

I don't think many people will agree with me but if the computer or telephone is her only means of contact with OM, you may want to consider discontinuing your Internet Service and blocking international calling if she ignores your request for NC.


----------



## walkonmars

Acabado said:


> I gave no doubt you know the answer here:
> You can keep sharing you wife nad monitoring it or you can choose seld respect.
> The real issue here is you suspects she will go underground and won't renounce ever to OM so you will forced to divorce her if you push.
> 
> 
> You know damm well the choice you must give her:
> a)
> -NC letter
> -Complete transparence
> -MC
> -Not just friends.
> -Steps to repair the damage and colaboration to rebuild the marriage.
> 
> b) Divorce.


:iagree: :iagree:

You need to present those two options in a serious but calm manner. No overt emotions, no rancor or bitterness. You either have a marriage or you don't. Look her directly in the eyes. Don't let her change the topic. 

You are not controlling her. She can do as she pleases. If she doesn't commit to either option then it'll be option b by default.


----------



## OldWolf57

You are suppose to be her best friend, you are suppose to be the confidant. She expressed TO HIM how she see him !! And she lied to you.
you say that last percentage is gone. You hope she is just in denial, and can't see how unhealthy this is for your relationship ???

Ask her is it healthy for a wife to disregard her HUSBAND hurt. Is it normal and healthy for a wife to disrespect her husband, and put an old boyfriend before his feelings.

IoO, its gone beyond just the issue of him now, and been for a while.
The issue is HER LOVE and RESPECT for you.

This is a grown woman. She chose to ignore your feelings after you TOLD her how this hurts you.

You don't need a MC to drop the boom, just MAN the HELL UP.
Like a poster said, this is your manup checkmate move dude.
So stop getting others to manage your marriage.
MC have their uses, but after treating you the way she has, it on you to snatch back her respect. 
And having some MC state your case won't get the respect back in her eyes.

Look, there comes a time when you have to be ready to lose your marriage, to save it.
And for all you know, bf could support her or not getting a lil sum sum. She just may not want to say anything to you and hurt the marriage. We have seen tooooo much here to never say never.

There was a recent poster who parents KNEW his WW was stepping for yrs. but never said anything.

You sound like a very nice guy who would move the world for your family. Well just move this guy out of your marriage, and find out why she doesn't consider you her BF.


----------



## OldWolf57

Will Kane gives good advice, I just disagree with compromising.


----------



## island_of_one

Well, the message is coming through loud and clear. My gut has been telling me the same thing all along. Until recently, I just wasn't sure enough to go through with it. Thanks for all of the encouragement to do what I know has to be done. 

As for my wifes trip to NM, she has been at her friends house all week. I have been using iCloud find my phone app to verify her location. I have also talked/texted with her friend and checked my wifes cell phone text/call log. Nothing out of the ordinary there. At this point, I don't doubt that my wife would be capable of a rendeveaux, but I question whether her girl friend would allow my wife to bring another man into the house with GF's kids around. 

There were a couple of posters that indicated a forced NC approach might not work. Are there still any arguments against immediately forcing NC? Will Kane?


----------



## SadandAngry

I will stand by everything I put in my first post. You cannot afford to compromise. You will give her more rope to hang herself with. If you allow her contact, they will keep it innane on the level you can see, to pacify you, and likely find another channel you cannot see to have their real communication.

You cannot negotiate with her, that presupposes rationality, a sense of honor. She does not have that in regards to this relationship. Is that not clear to you. Simply the fact that you are uncomfortable should be enough to terminate contact, should it not? She should place your needs above some ghost from the past, no?

But she won't do that on her own, will she? She is using less than direct language to fish for his interest, to let him know she is available to him when he is ready. She is in deep. Therefore, in the event you give an ultimatum, and she chooses you, you must verify that the addiction breaks. Keylog the computer. Spyware on the phone that logs all communications. VAR in the house and her car in case she gets a burner phone. If she is for real, she should exhibit signs of distress while coping with withdrawal. It should look hard, because it is hard. If it doesn't seem hard, then you need to worry.


----------



## OldWolf57

Its just not so simple anymore man.

I'm trying to show you that her respect for you has to be really low, for her to disregard your hurt.
Or she is so selfish that your feeling don't matter to her

IDK, maybe she feel since she is faithful and a SAHM, that she should be able to have this.

Either way, it disrespectful to you and the marriage that she see the damage its doing but won't stop.

Maybe handing her D papers will be the only way she will began to understand how it unhealthy to disrespect your husband in favor of contact with an old boyfriend.


----------



## OldWolf57

Doesn't this friend she is visiting suppose to be her BFF ??
Or has he replaced her ??


----------



## Saki

The only thing that matters is what you will accept!!!

Will you accept her continued contact with the OM or not???


----------



## Entropy3000

You should have insisted on immediate NC two years ago at the least.

Having been in an EA I can tell you the key factor in saving my marriage was my wife catching this early and her being firm.

An EA is like a cancer. Allowing it to continue only makes the damage worse. 

I fear that your scenario is playing itself out in way too many marriages today in the name of friendship.

MC is useless to you until she comes out of her affair. The MC will not be the bad guy. In fact they may feel that your wife would be more happy leaving you even. It is on you to fight for your marriage. Thus far you have let is fail. The affair is on her of course. But you have to act immediately. Not one more day.

Indeed if she travelled this may be a PA. Not trying to alarm you. However, I do encourage you to investigate further.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> The only thing that matters is what you will accept!!!
> 
> Will you accept her continued contact with the OM or not???


Several things have been sinking in as I have had time to digest all of the advice. The above is really the bottom line. EA or not, lying or not, etc...it just comes down to what I'll accept in marriage. I do want a chance at having a good marriage again and obviously OM can't be a part of that. 

Here are a few other details rattling around in my head. 

Based on what I’ve read in my wife’s emails (before the last couple months), it seems to me that my wife morphed her love for OM into a motherly/sisterly sort of interaction. She does truly care for his happiness (even without her), and I think she feels she's in control enough to not act out in straightforward romantic way. While she has to know that what she is going is out of bounds, I think she has bought into her own lies. One of the biggest is that she feels like she believes she is not the type of person to have an affair, therefore she must not be having one. The comment about using indirect statements to let him know she's ready forhim was enlightening. I hadn't thought of it that way. Whatever control she used for the first year+ seems to be slipping (and you will all say, "of course it is!!").

Here’s the “who is my wife’s best friend” history. Wife and girl from NM have been best girl friends/BFF’s since they were 10. They have lived apart since 7th grade, but have carried on with the same closeness ever since. I took over the best friend role once my wife and I were together, and GF was still a close supporter. However, after drifting apart over the years since having kids, it appears that my wife's inner most thoughts went more to GF than me. Of course, I didn’t realize at the time. Then foreign exchange boy returns, and my wife pursues a best friend like relationship. I wasn't meeting her conversational companionship needs at the time, and she found someone who filled them plentifully. He wasn't working while recovering from test. cancer and had broken off 12-year relationship. Two lonely spirits in need of each other. Hmph!! She claims to view the activities as being just the same as if it were with another girl friend (which is BS of course). I am number three at best these day (residing just outside her inner circle), though my wife claims otherwise when I say this. OM hasn’t GF replaced as best friend. He’s her fantasy world confidant with whom she lives vicariously through his exuberance for life and train wreck in dealing with peple. She gets to act out a new self-identity that doesn’t involve being wife, parent, etc. I think my wife understands to some extent that her relationship with OM is not based on reality. I don’t think she is all the way gone (yet!). I do not believe she would give up GF or myself for the OM. She might unwittingly destroy our marriage (which she has been doing a great job of), but I don't think it would be a conscience choice. I'll be testing that theory! 

Wife and I talked shortly before her trip. I don’t know why it took so long, but she finally accepted that what she has been doing was severely hurting me. She is not OK with hurting me, but in her mind she doesn’t want to give up OM either. I gave her three choices--- NC + work on marriage, marriage of convenience for the kids, or divorce--- and some time to think. Based on some comments she made the day after, it seemed like it sunk in that it was an obvious choice (i.e. give up her friend). But, then she came up with her compromise idea. Her way of resolving rock vs. hard place I guess. BTW, I have decided that I am not going to accept the compromise.

Though it may not have seemed like it, I am not really afraid of losing her. Ironically, I was the one that was more distant and dis-satisfied before the EA started. Suffice to say that her EA has not made her more attractive as a spouse. We are still very compatible and have the potential to regain a happy marriage, but she is far my from ideal spouse at this stage in our lives. If it comes to it, I know that I can find someone else to be happy (or happier) with. What I do worry about is the kids (10, 7yo). My instinct to provide for/protect my kids makes it seem selfish to me to choose my own marital happiness over the kids well-being. This is part of the reason that I have hesitated to force a resolution with my wife. 

So, the MC had to cancel again this week (death in the family). It is down to just me.  Any advice on how to approach her with the "NC or D" choice? How much evidence (and the sources) do I provide? I think the revelation for me is that the goal is to tell her what I will accept and tolerate. No secrecy, no sharing my wife with another man, no disrespect... I do think I'll wait until after Turkey Day.


----------



## Saki

You aren't ready for it, but I'm going to lay David Deida on you anyway:

*There is nothing to wait for and no one to blame*

How do you approach her with NC or D? Very calmly. Like you were asking her if she wanted ham or turkey on her sandwich. Like you have somewhere better to be... 

...like you would be fine without her.

You better damn well let this really sink in before you do it. 

Develop a calming technique before you start. When you heart starts to pound rely on your calming technique.

EDIT never reveal your sources. What evidence do you think you need to provide? Evidence of what? She knows exactly what she did. This is about what you will accept. DO NOT PROVIDE HER AMMUNITION TO RATIONALIZE HER ACTIONS. Repeat yourself. 

you - I am hurt that you turned to another man to fulfill your needs instead of bringing the issue up with me
her - but i wasn't doing anything wrong
you - I am hurt that you turned to another man to fulfill your needs instead of bringing the issue up with me
her - but I didnt even talk to him last tuesday!
you - I am hurt that you turned to another man to fulfill your needs instead of bringing the issue up with me
her - but I tried to talk to you about this
you - I am hurt that you turned to another man to fulfill your needs instead of bringing the issue up with me
her - I am so sad, my world sucks so much!
you - I am hurt that you turned to another man to fulfill your needs instead of bringing the issue up with me

She will try to draw you into games that distract from your message. Simply don't play them.


----------



## Cdelta02

island_of_one said:


> Well, the message is coming through loud and clear. My gut has been telling me the same thing all along. Until recently, I just wasn't sure enough to go through with it. Thanks for all of the encouragement to do what I know has to be done.
> 
> As for my wifes trip to NM, she has been at her friends house all week. I have been using iCloud find my phone app to verify her location. I have also talked/texted with her friend and checked my wifes cell phone text/call log. Nothing out of the ordinary there. At this point, I don't doubt that my wife would be capable of a rendeveaux, but I question whether her girl friend would allow my wife to bring another man into the house with GF's kids around.
> 
> There were a couple of posters that indicated a forced NC approach might not work. Are there still any arguments against immediately forcing NC? Will Kane?


If the GF is pro your marriage, ask her if WW has been spending time on the phone and internet thats not her talking to you.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Entropy3000 said:


> You should have insisted on immediate NC two years ago at the least.
> 
> Having been in an EA I can tell you the key factor in saving my marriage was my wife catching this early and her being firm.
> 
> An EA is like a cancer. Allowing it to continue only makes the damage worse.
> 
> I fear that your scenario is playing itself out in way too many marriages today in the name of friendship.
> 
> *MC is useless to you until she comes out of her affair. The MC will not be the bad guy. In fact they may feel that your wife would be more happy leaving you even. * It is on you to fight for your marriage. Thus far you have let is fail. The affair is on her of course. But you have to act immediately. Not one more day.
> 
> Indeed if she travelled this may be a PA. Not trying to alarm you. However, I do encourage you to investigate further.


Yes, I notice how therapists straddle the win/win divide by saying helping couples to identify that they need to part ways is just as important as helping them to stay together. therapists can never go wrong with this kind of thinking.


----------



## OldWolf57

When you broach after Turkey day, just say you want to finish talking about what she proposed.
That while she was gone, you really saw how much this guys means to her. That he means so much to her, that for over 2 yrs she ignored the arguments and pain, her relationship caused.
and that tells you, she give more importance to him than respecting you as a husband.
So as to her compromise, you will decline.

She knows you feel in 3rd place, she should want to make you feel you're first.


----------



## warlock07

Ok, so she would be fine if you have a female friend who is as close to you as she is to him ?


----------



## OldWolf57

I can't put into words others feelings from my actions and words, but when situations arose, I just somehow knew certain responses was probable, and planned according.

Only you know your wife.
Only you know what you can live with.
Can she have this guy as a friend and keep it that way ??
Does she see him now the way you described?

I don't know what to tell you now, so Ill just say Good Luck!!


----------



## SadandAngry

Do not compromise. She needs to start turning to you to get those needs met, and you need to show you can listen to her. The first while is pretty easy if you are motivated, its later that's hard, because a lot of what she should be saying to you at the start will be about the OM, and how much she misses him (if she is honest), but you'll reach a point where you get angry that she let things drift so far down the wrong path. You have to have some compassion if you want to R, and find a way through that. A decent MC should be able to help then, but that's months down the road.


----------



## island_of_one

I am pretty certain that OM did not meet in NM. I spoke and texted with wife’s GF a couple times, checked up on cell phone records, and cell phone location. Everything checks out. I would bet anything that wife spent time emailing OM and very likely Facetimed as well. GF had to work several of the days, so my wife had free time during the day. I did a quick check on her iPad and iPhone this morning (she got home late light night). She actually left her email logged in her phone. However, all of the emails to/from OM were no longer there. Her safari history showed that she was searching for ways to export yahoo mail to her friends macbook. So, I’m guessing she managed to get the emails to a safe place for storage while also keeping them safe from my eyes. She was also working on exporting a playlist of songs that she wants to send to OM (on a USB drive). I guess this is really all extraneous details. PA or no PA really doesn’t change my plans. EA and PA both end with an A. 

I am still looking for more advice on how to handle the NC or D conversation. Does it really not matter at this time whether she believes it is an affair or not? She is going to claim the following: I’m being controlling, doesn’t see why her emailing a friend should be a big deal, it’s not losing the OM but losing control over who she can share her thoughts with that hurts her, she just shares normal stuff (not deepest thoughts) with him, he’s not threat to me, she doesn’t lie about contact, etc. She won’t understand how I can refute most of these things based on what she thinks I know. If I reveal evidence showing that she has lied and that her emotions for OM are more than as friends (i.e. take away her plausible denial), will that help snap her out of her fog? Of course, her immediate reaction will be anger that I have snooped. If she really is in denial, she will be very angry with me when I make her choose. If she chooses NC, will she eventually become enlightened as to how damaging her behavior has been? Given the current downward path we’re on already, I guess it is just worth the risk. 

A few more questions: 

- So, do I just tell her what I’ll accept and won’t accept and completely ignore any attempts to argue what did/didn’t happen?
- In meeting the complete transparency clause, do I insist on getting all of her passwords? 
- Should I have any monitoring techniques in place before talking to her? She uses iPhone and iPad which are not as easy to add tracking software. If she agrees NC but has plans to go underground, it may be easier to get something installed now. 
- How long do I give her to decide? She’s already had a couple weeks to think about it.


----------



## jfv

Yes, tell her what you know. don't worry about her anger in regards to the snooping. You are a man protecting a marriage which she put in jeaopardy with her actions. 

Just tell her that those are the red flags that caused you to act. Do not reveal how you attained the evidence. 

As for snapping her out of it: remember, the fog will only lift AFTER several weeks of NC. 

Yes get all passwords. This is part of the reconcilliation. 

Yes be ready to verify her NC. This is you helping her break the addiction. Install everything you need. 

If she's already had a couple of weeks to think about it maybe she's used those couple of weeks to take it underground. Do not give her any more time. 

She gives you an answer right then or you decide for her. ie, File divorce papers. And let her know that is what you will be doing. 

Do it soon. Good luck.


----------



## Acabado

Unsure about revealing even just partialy you snoops.
Hoping this bump brings you more answers.


----------



## SadandAngry

island_of_one said:


> I am pretty certain that OM did not meet in NM. I spoke and texted with wife’s GF a couple times, checked up on cell phone records, and cell phone location. Everything checks out. I would bet anything that wife spent time emailing OM and very likely Facetimed as well. GF had to work several of the days, so my wife had free time during the day. I did a quick check on her iPad and iPhone this morning (she got home late light night). She actually left her email logged in her phone. However, all of the emails to/from OM were no longer there. Her safari history showed that she was searching for ways to export yahoo mail to her friends macbook. So, I’m guessing she managed to get the emails to a safe place for storage while also keeping them safe from my eyes. She was also working on exporting a playlist of songs that she wants to send to OM (on a USB drive). I guess this is really all extraneous details. PA or no PA really doesn’t change my plans. EA and PA both end with an A.
> 
> I am still looking for more advice on how to handle the NC or D conversation. Does it really not matter at this time whether she believes it is an affair or not? She is going to claim the following: I’m being controlling, doesn’t see why her emailing a friend should be a big deal, it’s not losing the OM but losing control over who she can share her thoughts with that hurts her, she just shares normal stuff (not deepest thoughts) with him, he’s not threat to me, she doesn’t lie about contact, etc. She won’t understand how I can refute most of these things based on what she thinks I know. If I reveal evidence showing that she has lied and that her emotions for OM are more than as friends (i.e. take away her plausible denial), will that help snap her out of her fog? Of course, her immediate reaction will be anger that I have snooped. If she really is in denial, she will be very angry with me when I make her choose. If she chooses NC, will she eventually become enlightened as to how damaging her behavior has been? Given the current downward path we’re on already, I guess it is just worth the risk.
> 
> A few more questions:
> 
> - So, do I just tell her what I’ll accept and won’t accept and completely ignore any attempts to argue what did/didn’t happen?
> - In meeting the complete transparency clause, do I insist on getting all of her passwords?
> - Should I have any monitoring techniques in place before talking to her? She uses iPhone and iPad which are not as easy to add tracking software. If she agrees NC but has plans to go underground, it may be easier to get something installed now.
> - How long do I give her to decide? She’s already had a couple weeks to think about it.


No, it doesn't matter if she agrees or not, as I've said before, she is not rational about it.

You counter the controlling by saying the choice is all hers, you can only control yourself, and you will choose not to play second fiddle in your own marriage.

Then yes, you don't engage in the argument. Simply state that NC, and full transparency (every password, no deleting, access anytime you want) are what you will accept. You must be willing to improve your marriage for both of you, MC, IC, spending 15 hours a week with each other, etc., and say so. Tell her how much you do love her, and you want to build a happy, fulfilling marriage together.

Do not say what you know or how you know anything, just stick to your limits of acceptance, and the consequences. Realize she might test you. She might call your bluff. You will have to follow through and file. It has to be a real and credible consequence.

It probably would be best to get your monitoring in order before you irritate her. 

Once you have the conversation, make her choose right then. You or him. Period. Again, if she calls, instigate a hard 180 immediately, and do what you need to file.


----------



## Entropy3000

island_of_one said:


> I am pretty certain that OM did not meet in NM. I spoke and texted with wife’s GF a couple times, checked up on cell phone records, and cell phone location. Everything checks out. I would bet anything that wife spent time emailing OM and very likely Facetimed as well. GF had to work several of the days, so my wife had free time during the day. I did a quick check on her iPad and iPhone this morning (she got home late light night). She actually left her email logged in her phone. However, all of the emails to/from OM were no longer there. Her safari history showed that she was searching for ways to export yahoo mail to her friends macbook. So, I’m guessing she managed to get the emails to a safe place for storage while also keeping them safe from my eyes. She was also working on exporting a playlist of songs that she wants to send to OM (on a USB drive). I guess this is really all extraneous details. PA or no PA really doesn’t change my plans. EA and PA both end with an A.
> 
> I am still looking for more advice on how to handle the NC or D conversation. Does it really not matter at this time whether she believes it is an affair or not? She is going to claim the following: I’m being controlling, doesn’t see why her emailing a friend should be a big deal, it’s not losing the OM but losing control over who she can share her thoughts with that hurts her, she just shares normal stuff (not deepest thoughts) with him, he’s not threat to me, she doesn’t lie about contact, etc. She won’t understand how I can refute most of these things based on what she thinks I know. If I reveal evidence showing that she has lied and that her emotions for OM are more than as friends (i.e. take away her plausible denial), will that help snap her out of her fog? Of course, her immediate reaction will be anger that I have snooped. If she really is in denial, she will be very angry with me when I make her choose. If she chooses NC, will she eventually become enlightened as to how damaging her behavior has been? Given the current downward path we’re on already, I guess it is just worth the risk.
> 
> A few more questions:
> 
> - So, do I just tell her what I’ll accept and won’t accept and completely ignore any attempts to argue what did/didn’t happen?
> 
> *This is my view. Do not be distracted by what you can prove or not prove. Never reveal your sources of information. It is about immediate and verifiable NC. The timing of her leaving was not good.
> *
> - In meeting the complete transparency clause, do I insist on getting all of her passwords?
> 
> *Yes. That said one cannot expect work related passwords.*
> 
> - Should I have any monitoring techniques in place before talking to her? She uses iPhone and iPad which are not as easy to add tracking software. If she agrees NC but has plans to go underground, it may be easier to get something installed now.
> 
> *Agreed.*
> 
> - How long do I give her to decide? She’s already had a couple weeks to think about it.


*Immediate. Zero time. There should be no decision to make. If she cannot agree right away she is willing to give up her marriage. I would require a decision before the conversation ended. But that is just me. If you cannot get an immediate answer then start to file. So you need to talk to a lawyer before this.*


----------



## karole

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## island_of_one

Well, we had the NC confrontation tonight. Things did not go down exactly by the playbook. Don't know yet whether I've saved or ruined my marriage. My wife didn't take the ultimatum very happily and is very angry right now. While I tried to sell it as a choice, she took it as being forced. She didn't really feel she had an option (no job, no other place to stay), so she agreed to say goodbye to OM. She once again stated that she felt this wasn't a way to bring us back together. That forcing her hand would ultimately just make things worse. We'll see...what we have been doing wasn't working either! 

She had hoped for a compromise by offering complete transparency (while maintaining some contact with OM), but I told her that I didn't feel that it would work. I also mentioned it was too late for offering transparency. Where I did bend the NC rules was that I am allowing her to say her goodbye in private. I realize that she may finally express directly what she really feels for him, but I don't think I really care as long as the end result it the same- no more OM in her life. I'll be monitoring after that to make sure there is no more contact. 

I don't know if her defiance is still an act trying to sway me that it isn't really an affair, or if she is just truly devastated by feeling others are making decisions for her. She still made comments trying to minimize her connection to OM, so she was likely just trying to convince me. I still don't know if she is in total denial or not. How long will it take for the fog to lift, so she can at least start acknowledging her behavior? 

I did not reveal any of my "evidence." I am not certain if this would have helped or not. I could have shown her the emails I have seen and explained why I am convinced of her feelings for OM. But, she likely would just deny anyway and be all the more pissed at me. 

Another note is that she claims to have indicated to OM 1-1/2 weeks ago that their relationship was causing marital problems. According to my wife, OM has not contacted her since and indicated that she did just fine without him for 15 years. Don’t know if this story is true, or just another ploy.


----------



## Jonesey

I know i probably should have said this before.

But please lose this way of thinking

*if she is in total denial or not.*

She might be in a lot of thing´s.But denial is not one of those thing´s.

She know´s exactly what she is up to..Make no mistake about it..

And this
*Another note is that she claims to have indicated to OM 1-1/2 weeks ago that their relationship was causing marital problems.*Please permit me to laugh,at that statement...
It is so ridiculous.That even a five year old would give her a that look saying SERIOUSLY ..

She has known that almost since day one...Regardless of her claiming differently..


Stay firm..believe only what you/she can prove.


----------



## Jonesey

island_of_one said:


> I am pretty certain that OM did not meet in NM. I spoke and texted with wife’s GF a couple times, checked up on cell phone records, and* cell phone location.* I hope you realize that does not mean she was
> at the location the phone said it was..
> 
> Don't get fooled by the distance between,wife and OM
> you would be surprised to know.How many OM has traveled
> long distances to meet up..(i know i was)Your wife´s best friend could easy
> have carried her phone for here..
> 
> 
> 
> Everything checks out. I would bet anything that wife spent time emailing OM and very likely Facetimed as well. GF had to work several of the days, so my wife had free time during the day. I did a quick check on her iPad and iPhone this morning (she got home late light night). She actually left her email logged in her phone. However, all of the emails to/from OM were no longer there. Her safari history showed that she was searching for ways to export yahoo mail to her friends macbook. So, I’m guessing she managed to get the emails to a safe place for storage while also keeping them safe from my eyes. She was also working on exporting a playlist of songs that she wants to send to OM (on a USB drive). I guess this is really all extraneous details. PA or no PA really doesn’t change my plans. EA and PA both end with an A.
> 
> I am still looking for more advice on how to handle the NC or D conversation. Does it really not matter at this time whether she believes it is an affair or not? She is going to claim the following: I’m being controlling, doesn’t see why her emailing a friend should be a big deal, it’s not losing the OM but losing control over who she can share her thoughts with that hurts her, she just shares normal stuff (not deepest thoughts) with him, he’s not threat to me, she doesn’t lie about contact, etc. She won’t understand how I can refute most of these things based on what she thinks I know. If I reveal evidence showing that she has lied and that her emotions for OM are more than as friends (i.e. take away her plausible denial), will that help snap her out of her fog? Of course, her immediate reaction will be anger that I have snooped. If she really is in denial, she will be very angry with me when I make her choose. If she chooses NC, will she eventually become enlightened as to how damaging her behavior has been? Given the current downward path we’re on already, I guess it is just worth the risk.
> 
> A few more questions:
> 
> - So, do I just tell her what I’ll accept and won’t accept and completely ignore any attempts to argue what did/didn’t happen?
> - In meeting the complete transparency clause, do I insist on getting all of her passwords?
> - Should I have any monitoring techniques in place before talking to her? She uses iPhone and iPad which are not as easy to add tracking software. If she agrees NC but has plans to go underground, it may be easier to get something installed now.
> - How long do I give her to decide? She’s already had a couple weeks to think about it.


----------



## Eli-Zor

You allowing your wife to say goodbye to the OM in private is going to lose you your marriage . She will either leave you , go underground , or make a plan what to do next. Look in the mirror and ask do you want a marriage and are you prepared to fight for it.

Your wife's comments are very typical of those in an affair, your position is your making statements, your not asking, your not telling and you will following up with consequences.

Go back and tell her she cannot see the OM ----ever and if you have not done so already get hold of his parents , siblings or any one else who will affect his life and expose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saki

Your wife followed the script exactly. The waywards throw everything including the kitchen sink at you in their attempts to continue their relationships.

It went as well as could be hoped for.

This process, and the confrontation, are things you've not had to experience before in life. It's very difficult to get everything right.

Letting her go NC with him in private was a mistake, but not something that cannot be overcome. You will have to expend additional energy to verify NC is maintained. It is very possible their contact will go underground. Strongly suggest keyloggers, VAR in her car, start looking for burner phones, etc.

Why go through all this? You have to understand your playing field. If she maintains contact, you have 0% of recoverying your marriage. She is addicted to a drug right now, she cannot CHOOSE to stop contact and work on her marriage. You have to force her to stop contact and let the drug clear her system, THEN you can start figuring out if and how to recover the marriage.

I suggest you look back on your NC conversation with her and look at the way she's spun reality and tried to manipulate you into letting her maintain this relationship. Just friends??? Look at how she valued her marriage, and look at how she valued this friendship...which does she care more about right now???


----------



## island_of_one

Jonesey said:


> I know i probably should have said this before.
> 
> But please lose this way of thinking
> 
> *if she is in total denial or not.*
> 
> She might be in a lot of thing´s.But denial is not one of those thing´s.
> 
> She know´s exactly what she is up to..Make no mistake about it..
> 
> And this
> *Another note is that she claims to have indicated to OM 1-1/2 weeks ago that their relationship was causing marital problems.*Please permit me to laugh,at that statement...
> It is so ridiculous.That even a five year old would give her a that look saying SERIOUSLY ..
> 
> She has known that almost since day one...Regardless of her claiming differently..
> 
> 
> Stay firm..believe only what you/she can prove.




So, your answer to the title of this thread is that she knows what she is doing and is just lying to keep the EA going. I suppose a part of me has thought this all along. It is one thing for her to lie that she didn’t email/Facetime when asked about a specific instance, but I have been reluctant to accept that she is just fabricating reasons/excuses/etc to intentionally manipulate me. Her pain and offense at my actions seem heartfelt- has she really just gotten that good at acting hurt? Amazing what an EA can do to someone who previously didn’t have a deceptive bone in her body. For me, if I know that she really is just lying through her teeth, then it is easier to go forward with a harder stance. 

To clarify, my wife's story is that she admitted to OM that their relationship was causing marital issues. While my wife had previously acknowledged issues to OM, she had just told OM that the problems were due to personal issues of mine. Her story now is that OM doesn't want to cause a problem and hasn't been in contact since. That's her claim...could just mean that she is now using a different email address.


----------



## island_of_one

Eli-Zor said:


> You allowing your wife to say goodbye to the OM in private is going to lose you your marriage . She will either leave you , go underground , or make a plan what to do next. Look in the mirror and ask do you want a marriage and are you prepared to fight for it.
> 
> Your wife's comments are very typical of those in an affair, your position is your making statements, your not asking, your not telling and you will following up with consequences.
> 
> Go back and tell her she cannot see the OM ----ever and if you have not done so already get hold of his parents , siblings or any one else who will affect his life and expose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While I see the value in having the NC letter not be private, I’m not sure of the real damage of doing it privately beyond there being less immediate assurance that she is actually going NC. I figure that there is some value in letting feel like she wins at least one point, and I can understand her wanting to have some closure. If she just wants to take it underground, I will catch it anyway. If she is planning on leaving, well, I guess that is her choice and she would have done it eventually anyway. Am I missing something? 

I do not have any means of contacting anyone that could influence OM. Really, he hasn't been the pursuer in this and has plenty of other options without my wife being involved with him. Not sure what benefit he gets from the emails besides having someone that pays a lot of attention to him and believes he's a saint no matter what games he plays with other people.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> So, your answer to the title of this thread is that she knows what she is doing and is just lying to keep the EA going. I suppose a part of me has thought this all along. It is one thing for her to lie that she didn’t email/Facetime when asked about a specific instance, but I have been reluctant to accept that she is just fabricating reasons/excuses/etc to intentionally manipulate me. Her pain and offense at my actions seem heartfelt- has she really just gotten that good at acting hurt? Amazing what an EA can do to someone who previously didn’t have a deceptive bone in her body. For me, if I know that she really is just lying through her teeth, then it is easier to go forward with a harder stance.
> 
> To clarify, my wife's story is that she admitted to OM that their relationship was causing marital issues. While my wife had previously acknowledged issues to OM, she had just told OM that the problems were due to personal issues of mine. Her story now is that OM doesn't want to cause a problem and hasn't been in contact since. That's her claim...could just mean that she is now using a different email address.


You are attempting to apply logic and rational thinking to an illogical situation involving a person who is thinking irrationally.

She sees none of this as "wrong", offensive, lying, deceiptful, etc. She believes in her version of reality, which justifies all that she's done. In her mind, she's not lying. It's just that her mind is not based in reality. I would suggest you not bother trying to convince her otherwise.

Again, all that matters is what you'll accept. You see how quickly this stance cuts through all the BS that's designed to keep you away????

If you ever get to reading David Deida, he takes the stance that this behavior is typical of "the feminine essence". Their truth is merely a reflection of their current emotional state, not a reflection of reality.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> You are attempting to apply logic and rational thinking to an illogical situation involving a person who is thinking irrationally.
> 
> She sees none of this as "wrong", offensive, lying, deceiptful, etc. She believes in her version of reality, which justifies all that she's done. In her mind, she's not lying. It's just that her mind is not based in reality. I would suggest you not bother trying to convince her otherwise.
> 
> Again, all that matters is what you'll accept. You see how quickly this stance cuts through all the BS that's designed to keep you away????
> 
> If you ever get to reading David Deida, he takes the stance that this behavior is typical of "the feminine essence". Their truth is merely a reflection of their current emotional state, not a reflection of reality.


Point taking on trying to apply logical thinking to the situation. During the conversation, I did keep reminding myself to just go back to the bottom line of what I'll accept. It wasn't easy!! Now, I'm just trying to figure out how to deal with her pain and anger... and trying to reassure myself that a hard line approach is the only way to go. My interest in her level of denial relates to how I should expect her to behave going forward.


----------



## island_of_one

After the confrontation last night (ended at 11:30pm), my wife left the house for a couple hours (which is her typical response after a fight). Turns out she talked to her GF for 1-1/2 hours. This morning, she was once again questioning whether I really wanted to go forward without any room for compromise and was claiming that we won’t have a future because she’ll have no place to write and work through her own private thoughts (her: can’t write on paper or electronically for fear of me reading it). I pointed out that this wasn’t an issue for the previous 15 years, and she never kept a diary/journal during that all that time. In any case, sounds like the chat with GF did not help provide any reality to the situation. 

Some more questions: 

How long should I expect her to be really pissed? Right now, she is in no way taking responsibility for her actions and is off in her own version of reality. How long will it take for her to start owning up to having strayed from the marriage? Will she ever? I don’t see a real way forward until this happens. Will this take months? 

The two people closest to my wife (besides OM!) are her mother (in MO) and her GF in NM. Do I approach them for support? I am sure that my wife has them convinced that OM is not threat and that they are "just friends." I could reveal what I know and expose what has been going on. But, I did not reveal my evidence (or the sources) to my wife, so I don’t think I can expose the details to others without it getting back to my wife as well. 

While my wife’s is a serious EA, I still don’t view in the same extreme as a lot of other EA stories I’ve read. Are there degrees of EA’s? Does it even matter? The solution (NC) is the same regardless, right?


----------



## TDSC60

Unfortunately if she is still deep in the fog a different method of underground communication is likely. 

When you said that you would allow her to say goodbye to him in private I almost choked on my coffee. She will definitely tell him that she is being forced to stop with him and that you are an evil, controlling, devil for making her do this. He will always be the self sacrificing good guy who stepped aside for her sake and you will always be the controlling monster.

Understand that she will never be out of OM fog until SHE decides that your marriage is more important than OM. Even if she is forced out of contact she may always hold him in her heart as her "soul mate".

Until she can truly commit to you and the marriage, the resentment she feels toward you ending her fantasy with OM will taint the marriage.

If she does not improve or can not show you she wants a marriage with you, the only proven method to snap her out of the fog is to file for divorce. I say divorce instead of separation because divorce has a finality attached to it that separation does not. For a foggy spouse, separation just mean that they can continue to cake-eat and keep you on the line as the bank and back up plan.

Either way you need to look for continuing other means of contact. The odds that she just stops cold turkey are slim.


----------



## warlock07

island_of_one said:


> Well, we had the NC confrontation tonight. Things did not go down exactly by the playbook. Don't know yet whether I've saved or ruined my marriage. My wife didn't take the ultimatum very happily and is very angry right now. While I tried to sell it as a choice, she took it as being forced. She didn't really feel she had an option (no job, no other place to stay), so she agreed to say goodbye to OM. She once again stated that she felt this wasn't a way to bring us back together. That forcing her hand would ultimately just make things worse. We'll see...what we have been doing wasn't working either!
> 
> She had hoped for a compromise by offering complete transparency (while maintaining some contact with OM), but I told her that I didn't feel that it would work. I also mentioned it was too late for offering transparency. Where I did bend the NC rules was that I am allowing her to say her goodbye in private. I realize that she may finally express directly what she really feels for him, but I don't think I really care as long as the end result it the same- no more OM in her life. I'll be monitoring after that to make sure there is no more contact.
> 
> I don't know if her defiance is still an act trying to sway me that it isn't really an affair, or if she is just truly devastated by feeling others are making decisions for her. She still made comments trying to minimize her connection to OM, so she was likely just trying to convince me. I still don't know if she is in total denial or not. How long will it take for the fog to lift, so she can at least start acknowledging her behavior?
> 
> I did not reveal any of my "evidence." I am not certain if this would have helped or not. I could have shown her the emails I have seen and explained why I am convinced of her feelings for OM. But, she likely would just deny anyway and be all the more pissed at me.
> 
> Another note is that she claims to have indicated to OM 1-1/2 weeks ago that their relationship was causing marital problems. According to my wife, OM has not contacted her since and indicated that she did just fine without him for 15 years. Don’t know if this story is true, or just another ploy.


This is terrible..This is some ways is worse than breaking up with her... You forced her into reconciliation and most of them end real bad


----------



## iheartlife

I am probably too late, but this is why having the betrayer saying 'goodbye' in private isn't a good idea. From _Surviving an Affair_ by Dr. Harley (Surviving an Affair - Willard F. Jr. Harley, Jennifer Harley Chalmers - Google Books genders changed to fit the situation and TAM abbreviations added.




> How to Tell a[n Emotional Affair Partner] that the Relationship is Over
> 
> How can I explain to OM that I will never see him again? WS asked. The answer to that question is an extremely important part of the plan to separate. WS needed to end the relationship in a way that would make their separation complete. And she also needed to do it in a way that would be least offensive to BS.
> 
> But WS's instincts would not have led her to the correct procedure. If left to her own devices, she would have taken OM on a Caribbean cruise to say their final good-byes. At the very least, she would have wanted to take him to a secluded spot and discuss the pros and cons of their future together. From WS's perspective, she would want to let him down gently, and end the relationship with care and concern for his future. After all, she had encouraged him to love her, and now she felt she had no right to abandon him with no warning. Besides, she wasn't just in love with him, she cared about him, too. He was her best friend.
> 
> *The approach WS would have used to end the relationship not only would have been very offensive to BS, but probaly would have failed. I've witnessed these "final" good-byes and there's nothing final about them. All they do is leave the wayward spouse and the lover even more convinced that they belong with each other.*
> 
> From BS's perspective (and mine *[THE THERAPIST'S]*), _OM was the worst enemy of WS's and BS's marriage._ He stood in the way of their happiness and the happiness of their children. BS did not want WS to "let OM down gently."
> 
> I recommended to WS that she write OM the final good-bye in a letter....


 in a format similar to the No Contact letters suggested on this forum.

There is a reason for these steps:

1. Demand of No Contact and full transparency (BTW, that offer of transparency--take her up on it--it IS NOT LIMITED TO ACTUAL COMMUNICATIONS WITH THIS PERSON--it means access to ALL email accounts, skype accounts, facebook accounts etc. because spouses do not have privacy from one another except for the bathroom--this is how the WALL BETWEEN you got built, brick by brick).

2. No Contact immediate and in written format approved by the loyal spouse.

3. Verification.

and that is because of the power that an emotional affair / inappropriately close friendship that crosses marital boundaries has over the disloyal spouse.

She is accustomed to sharing everything with him, and virtually nothing with you. Do you think she's automatically going to open up to you? No, she is addicted to being open to him. She is either going to take it underground, or find a replacement. AND THE FACT THAT THE REPLACEMENT MIGHT BE A GIRLFRIEND VS. THIS MAN IS NO DIFFERENCE TO YOU: the wall between you will continue, just the same. The window needs to be opened for YOU by her (and you need to help her do this).

*Sorry if I missed this--did you ever get the book Not Just Friends??* She needs to read this asap (and you do, too).


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> Now, I'm just trying to figure out how to deal with her pain and anger... and trying to reassure myself that a hard line approach is the only way to go. My interest in her level of denial relates to how I should expect her to behave going forward.


Two points

1) Your thinking is Co dependant. STOP IT. Her pain and anger are HER problems caused by HER actions, which by the way hurt YOU. HER problem, HER issue.

Your goal is become a disinterested 3rd party observer. Judge her actions to decide if she is someone worthy of being married to you.

Your wife remains on her pedestal and any efforts to recover from this will fail if you keep her there.

2) Stop trying to interpret, predict, understand. You will fail in all aspects 100% of the time.

Accept life as it flows over you and understand what you can control and cannot control. You cannot control her behavior but you can control the pain she inflicts on you.



island_of_one said:


> How long should I expect her to be really pissed? Right now, she is in no way taking responsibility for her actions and is off in her own version of reality. How long will it take for her to start owning up to having strayed from the marriage? Will she ever? I don’t see a real way forward until this happens. Will this take months?


Again, at some point you have to accept the world around you. There is a fine line between preserving your boundries and trying to control everything around you. Focus on you, now.

How long will it take? At least months. A much easier and faster path is to terminate your relationship. Will she ever? Some do, some don't. Most who do, will not explicitly state as such. You must view her actions to determine this.



island_of_one said:


> The two people closest to my wife (besides OM!) are her mother (in MO) and her GF in NM. Do I approach them for support? I am sure that my wife has them convinced that OM is not threat and that they are "just friends." I could reveal what I know and expose what has been going on. But, I did not reveal my evidence (or the sources) to my wife, so I don’t think I can expose the details to others without it getting back to my wife as well.


Do not approach them. Again, all that matters is what you will accept, not what her friend will accept.

Exposure is recommended for physical affairs but I personally don't believe it will get you a whole lot of anywhere in an EA.


----------



## island_of_one

warlock07 said:


> This is terrible..This is some ways is worse than breaking up with her... You forced her into reconciliation and most of them end real bad


Am I understanding your post correctly- are you saying that I should not have forced NC? That I have just made it less likely for a successful reconciliation?


----------



## island_of_one

TDSC60 said:


> When you said that you would allow her to say goodbye to him in private I almost choked on my coffee. She will definitely tell him that she is being forced to stop with him and that you are an evil, controlling, devil for making her do this. He will always be the self sacrificing good guy who stepped aside for her sake and you will always be the controlling monster.
> 
> Understand that she will never be out of OM fog until SHE decides that your marriage is more important than OM. Even if she is forced out of contact she may always hold him in her heart as her "soul mate".
> 
> Until she can truly commit to you and the marriage, the resentment she feels toward you ending her fantasy with OM will taint the marriage.


She was exceedingly adamant about having a private goodbye. While she seemed to be willing (with extreme resentment) to go along with NC, she indicated that she would choose option B (divorce) over losing control of how she ends things. Right now, I think I’ll be the monster regardless of how she cuts off contact. 

So, how do I get her to see the light? Arguing my perspective hasn’t made a dent for more than a year. MC ‘ing didn’t help. I don’t think she’ll change her version of reality while she is still in contact with OM. If her version of reality says she’s not doing anything wrong, then we will be completely torn apart long before the fog is lifted. This sounds hopeless!!


----------



## carmen ohio

Dear i_o_o,

You indicated in one of your previous posts that you would be prepared to leave your WW if she didn't end her EA ("Though it may not have seemed like it, I am not really afraid of losing her. ... If it comes to it, I know that I can find someone else to be happy (or happier) with.")

Well, if you really want her back, start acting in ways that make this clear to her. As long as you continue to exhibit weakness (as you did by letting her 'end' her relationship with the OM in private), you are demonstrating to her quite the opposite. The fact that you are still unresolved in your own mind about how far you are prepared to take this is evident in your posts (_e.g._, see below).

Frankly, at this point, I give your marriage a low chance surviving; not because of your WW's anger over your telling her that she has to end it with the OM to save her marriage but because you still haven't expressed to her your resolve to either have her completely to yourself (and that means not only breaking it off with the OM but also behaving towards you in the manner of a loyal and loving wife) _or_ to leave her. Until you present her with this choice in a stark and compelling manner, she will continue to resent you and equivocate on her commitment to you. Once she understands this, however, she will be forced to make a decision and, chances are, she will choose you. If she doesn't, at least you will know where you stand and can start to prepare for your future without her (again, assuming you really to have the courage to follow through).

Forgive me for being a bit more blunt than some others here but a strong, self-reliant man does not accept anything less than total loyalty from his woman. Start acting like such a man and you will learn either that your WW wants _you_ or that she doesn't. In either case, in time, you will have a better life than you have now.

If you're unable to muster up the courage to do this, than just accept the fact that you will probably never again be the main recipient of your WW's love and affection, and learn to deal with that. Getting a new hobby may help.

As to the comments about your having 'forced' your WW spouse to 'reconcile' with you, you haven't forced her to do anything and you two haven't yet begun to reconcile. You have given her a choice. If she makes the right choice (from your POV), then you can begin the reconciliation process. If she doesn't, then there will be no reconciliation and, as discussed above, you will have to choose between staying with a woman who doesn't put you first in her life or leaving her.

Finally, stop asking the good people at TAM to script your behavior down to the last detail. Start to exhibit some alpha male qualities, the most important of which are doing what _you_ want to do and believing in _ yourself_.


Good luck.



island_of_one said:


> After the confrontation last night (ended at 11:30pm), my wife left the house for a couple hours (which is her typical response after a fight). Turns out she talked to her GF for 1-1/2 hours. *This morning, she was once again questioning whether I really wanted to go forward without any room for compromise and was claiming that we won’t have a future because she’ll have no place to write and work through her own private thoughts (her: can’t write on paper or electronically for fear of me reading it).* I pointed out that this wasn’t an issue for the previous 15 years, and she never kept a diary/journal during that all that time. In any case, sounds like the chat with GF did not help provide any reality to the situation.
> 
> Some more questions:
> 
> *How long should I expect her to be really pissed?* Right now, she is in no way taking responsibility for her actions and is off in her own version of reality. *How long will it take for her to start owning up to having strayed from the marriage? Will she ever? I don’t see a real way forward until this happens. Will this take months? *
> 
> The two people closest to my wife (besides OM!) are her mother (in MO) and her GF in NM. *Do I approach them for support?* I am sure that my wife has them convinced that OM is not threat and that they are "just friends." I could reveal what I know and expose what has been going on. But, I did not reveal my evidence (or the sources) to my wife, so I don’t think I can expose the details to others without it getting back to my wife as well.
> 
> While my wife’s is a serious EA, I still don’t view in the same extreme as a lot of other EA stories I’ve read. *Are there degrees of EA’s? Does it even matter? The solution (NC) is the same regardless, right?*


----------



## carmen ohio

island_of_one said:


> She was exceedingly adamant about having a private goodbye. While she seemed to be willing (with extreme resentment) to go along with NC, *she indicated that she would choose option B (divorce) over losing control of how she ends things*. Right now, I think I’ll be the monster regardless of how she cuts off contact.
> 
> So, how do I get her to see the light? Arguing my perspective hasn’t made a dent for more than a year. MC ‘ing didn’t help. I don’t think she’ll change her version of reality while she is still in contact with OM. *If her version of reality says she’s not doing anything wrong, then we will be completely torn apart long before the fog is lifted.* This sounds hopeless!!


Dear i_o_o,

When she said she would choose divorce over losing control of how she ends it with the OM man, you should have said, "alright, you've made your decision. I'll speak to an attorney tomorrow and start divorce proceedings." That would have sent her a clear message that she had to choose between you and the OM. As it was, you left her with a way out and hope that she can find a way to 'have you both.'

As to "her version of reality," she knows she is doing wrong by you, why else would she be hiding things from you? What she is really doing is trying to control you and to find a way to continue her EA with the OM while keeping you as a husband (with all the financial and other benefits that bestows on her). So far, you've let her get away with this.

Again, you have to make a decision. Are you willing to share your WW with the OM (and the next one and the next one until she finally succumbs to a PA) or aren't you? If you're not, you need to make this clear to her now.

One last piece of advice: If and when you finally take a firm stand, tell her that you're doing it, not to hurt her, but to help your marriage. Say that your marriage is the most important thing in your life but that, if it can't be a real marriage in which you are both dedicated first and foremost to making each other happy, then you don't want it. Say that, if you _both_ can't have that kind of marriage then it's best to end it now while you are both young enough to find other people to whom you can be totally faithful. Don't argue with her, maintain a firm but calm demeanor, and don't give ground. Every time she throws up an argument, respond with "I'm doing this to save our marriage but I can't save it unless you really want to have the kind of marriage that we both deserve." Don't let her off the hook until she gives you an answer and, if she refuses to, give her a very short deadline (like, by tomorrow morning) by which she must choose or you will initiate divorce proceedings.

I know this sounds harsh and some will say that it is too extreme but, truth be told, you only have one trump card -- you're willingness to leave her if she won't dedicate herself exclusively to you. At some point you will have to play this card. IMO, the sooner you do so, the better your chances of saving your marriage. If you had played it two years ago, before she became totally infatuated with the OM, you would have solved your problem. It may be too late now but it may not be. In another year or so it will be for sure.

Again, good luck.


----------



## warlock07

island_of_one said:


> She was exceedingly adamant about having a private goodbye. While she seemed to be willing (with extreme resentment) to go along with NC, she indicated that she would choose option B (divorce) over losing control of how she ends things. Right now, I think I’ll be the monster regardless of how she cuts off contact.
> 
> So, how do I get her to see the light? Arguing my perspective hasn’t made a dent for more than a year. MC ‘ing didn’t help. I don’t think she’ll change her version of reality while she is still in contact with OM. If her version of reality says she’s not doing anything wrong, then we will be completely torn apart long before the fog is lifted. This sounds hopeless!!


Choose divorce(or the process of divorce)..Don't argue. Arguing with a cheater about logic will get you nowhere. There are so many things that can go wrong with a private goodbye that I don't even want to list them. What do you think they will talk about ? It will cost your marriage anyway. Only it will waste more years of your life trying to salvage a dying marriage. Give her some minimal financial means so that money is not the only reason she is staying with you(Can you afford it ?)


----------



## warlock07

I don't see either of you happy with the other's terms


----------



## aug

island_of_one said:


> Here is a quote from a recent email from my wife to OM in response to a disappointing turn of events in OM's dating life:
> 
> _"As you are aware, there are a myriad of things I would like to give to you, most all of which are accompanied by a myriad of reasons I can't. But there is one gift nothing (not time, distance, or any situation) would stop me from bestowing if I could. The only thing that stops me is that lack of a magic wand. If I had that wand though, I would make your #1 (whomever you decide that is) see you through my eyes. It would only take a moment, and would only require a glimpse. "_



She has found her magic wand and used it on herself. To break that hold, you need to get that parchment paper with a spell on it with the word "divorce".


----------



## TRy

island_of_one said:


> Am I understanding your post correctly- are you saying that I should not have forced NC? That I have just made it less likely for a successful reconciliation?


 You did the right thing and are on the right path. There will always be minority dissent on a free forum. Cheaters, even if they do know realize that they are cheating, will always rationalize the affair partner relationship and will always fight to hang on to their emotional affair partner. In almost 100% of the cases they will argue that you are controlling. You cannot nice them out of an emotional affair. You just have to stand your ground and be a good husband until the affair fog goes away. Try to fill the void by trying to be there for her when she needs to talk or even yell at you (do not yell back but hold your ground). Time away from the affair partner is the only cure.

As for her NM friend, your wife had days of one on one time to put her spin on things; the NM friend may have even spoken to the other man.


----------



## TRy

island_of_one said:


> She was exceedingly adamant about having a private goodbye. While she seemed to be willing (with extreme resentment) to go along with NC, she indicated that she would choose option B (divorce) over losing control of how she ends things.


 Wow, if she said that then she is in way too deep with the other man (OM) and this is not over for them. The private sign off is to tell he things that she knows that a married woman should not say to an OM. There is a good chance that she will explore with the OM the option of them becoming a couple. The may also discuss how to take it underground via a secret email account or via a burner phone.



island_of_one said:


> Right now, I think I’ll be the monster regardless of how she cuts off contact.


----------



## Saki

It would be incredibly slick if you could record their "final" goodbye, whether it be by text or voice....


----------



## warlock07

I think contacting her good friend might be a good idea...her friend can be a invaluable support if she sees your perspective...


----------



## Jonesey

island_of_one said:


> So, your answer to the title of this thread is that she knows what she is doing and is just lying to keep the EA going. I suppose a part of me has thought this all along. It is one thing for her to lie that she didn’t email/Facetime when asked about a specific instance, but I have been reluctant to accept that she is just fabricating reasons/excuses/etc to intentionally manipulate me. Her pain and offense at my actions seem heartfelt- has she really just gotten that good at acting hurt? Amazing what an EA can do to someone who previously didn’t have a deceptive bone in her body. For me, if I know that she really is just lying through her teeth, then it is easier to go forward with a harder stance.
> 
> To clarify, my wife's story is that she admitted to OM that their relationship was causing marital issues. While my wife had previously acknowledged issues to OM, she had just told OM that the problems were due to personal issues of mine. Her story now is that OM doesn't want to cause a problem and hasn't been in contact since. That's her claim...could just mean that she is now using a different email address.


Sorry to answer so late.. But i like *SAKI´s* answer to you

Just would like to ad one more thing 

Never underestimate ,women´s ability to rationalize or compartmentalize..I personally never have been able to fully understand that my self.


----------



## TDSC60

island_of_one said:


> She was exceedingly adamant about having a private goodbye. While she seemed to be willing (with extreme resentment) to go along with NC, she indicated that she would choose option B (divorce) over losing control of how she ends things. Right now, I think I’ll be the monster regardless of how she cuts off contact.
> 
> So, how do I get her to see the light? Arguing my perspective hasn’t made a dent for more than a year. MC ‘ing didn’t help. I don’t think she’ll change her version of reality while she is still in contact with OM. If her version of reality says she’s not doing anything wrong, then we will be completely torn apart long before the fog is lifted. This sounds hopeless!!


File for divorce. She chose him over you and told you so. Reconciliation is impossible without both partner 100% in for the long haul. She is not there. 

She will never see your side of anything if there are no consequences. 

She can not or will not admit to having an EA with OM. For true R the cheating spouse has to admit and own the affair and be truly sorry. She has done neither.

Whether you know it or not, she gave YOU an ultimatum and you caved. You chose a marriage for the sake of the children and that is what you will get.

You can not make her change as much as you would like to.


----------



## island_of_one

TDSC60 said:


> File for divorce. She chose him over you and told you so. Reconciliation is impossible without both partner 100% in for the long haul. She is not there.
> 
> She will never see your side of anything if there are no consequences.
> 
> She can not or will not admit to having an EA with OM. For true R the cheating spouse has to admit and own the affair and be truly sorry. She has done neither.
> 
> Whether you know it or not, she gave YOU an ultimatum and you caved. You chose a marriage for the sake of the children and that is what you will get.
> 
> You can not make her change as much as you would like to.


Is her demand to have a private good-bye really such a definitive statement on her opinion of our marriage...and her intentions of further wrong-doing? Guess I didn't read enough into it at the time and blew that one. After thinking about it, there is obviously no rational reason for her to need a private farewell if she really is going NC. As I review what happened, I now see how an ultimatum was sent my way (and I gave in). Arggh!

Not much progress today. She went to bed before I was finished helping my daughter with her science fair project. All I got out of her was that she says she sent a short email to OM asking if he is interested in speaking to her about the situation, or if his silence over the last 1-1/2 weeks is his answer. Obviously, not putting much faith into anything she tells me right now. She also made sure to mention her demand for privacy on how she handles this. Unfortunately, I didn't even get to rebutt before one of our kids came in the room. We will see what tomorrow brings. And what my VAR records. 

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts today. I am learning (hopefully not too slowly!).


----------



## SadandAngry

You do not have to stick to being wishy washy. You are free to change your mind at any time. You can state to her that upon further reflection the demand for secrecy (let us call it what it is) cannot stand. Put the choice to her, make her choose, and be prepared to follow through. You can add all the niceties mentioned in other posts, but do not stand for her secrecy.

What steps have you taken to monitor the computer/devices?


----------



## SadandAngry

Look, she might end up choosing you for the wrong reasons at the moment, that doesn't matter. If you can monitor and ensure NC for long enough, being cold as ice on that point, but opening up and supporting her otherwise, so that the addiction is broken, then she will choose you for the right reasons in the end. You need to realize this is war though, and she is not on your side in her current state. Do not negotiate, draw the line, and hold it. For yourself, for your kids, for your marriage, for your wife.


----------



## OldWolf57

Why are you NOT as angry as her ???

In fact, where in the hell is your anger ?? You read her post to him, Aug repost it for you to reread.
So where is all this doubt coming from ??

YOU should be angry she is angry and in pain over another man.

As for the fog, all are different.
But if you want to cut to the chase, just tell her you have changed your mind.
Tell her it not worth another year of your life to put up with her resentment and anger, so you will be filing for D.

Then give her that email of what she wants to give him and walk away.
Let her try to explain her words, then ask how her how do she think that makes you feel. Knowing she got the hots for another guy.

Yeah it giving away a source, but you wanted all passwords anyway.

The thing is, there is no way she can gloss over that email especially with the telling him how she see him.

So stop worrying about her pain and start worrying about yours


----------



## The Cro-Magnon

OldWolf57 said:


> Why are you NOT as angry as her ???
> 
> In fact, where in the hell is your anger ?? You read her post to him, Aug repost it for you to reread.
> So where is all this doubt coming from ??
> 
> YOU should be angry she is angry and in pain over another man.
> 
> As for the fog, all are different.
> But if you want to cut to the chase, just tell her you have changed your mind.
> Tell her it not worth another year of your life to put up with her resentment and anger, so you will be filing for D.
> 
> Then give her that email of what she wants to give him and walk away.
> Let her try to explain her words, then ask how her how do she think that makes you feel. Knowing she got the hots for another guy.
> 
> Yeah it giving away a source, but you wanted all passwords anyway.
> 
> The thing is, there is no way she can gloss over that email especially with the telling him how she see him.
> 
> So stop worrying about her pain and start worrying about yours


This. Where is your righteous anger?

She has shat all over you. Do you want to eat her literal and metaphorical rejection of you? 

You have been wronged, and your lack of outrage is not right or healthy IMO.

Though what would I know, my own marriage is fcuked, and with each day I inch closer to seperation.....Easier to dish out advice than to take it


----------



## iheartlife

island_of_one said:


> All I got out of her was that she says she sent a short email to OM asking if he is interested in speaking to her about the situation, or if his silence over the last 1-1/2 weeks is his answer.


Let's assume this is 100% true. Does this sound like 100% no contact forever to you?

No, this is exactly what you'd expect--"let's discuss the fact that we shouldn't be talking." Which, guess what, leads to more talking, not zero talking.

You have a second bite at this apple now as far as I'm concerned. She said she was going to privately end it, and she didn't. So tell her now that she had her chance, and instead she is telling you she didn't end it, and say goodbye, she asked him to discuss it with her.

Then show her a copy of a standard No Contact letter and tell her this is what must be sent and you will do it together. Tell her that she 'doesn't get it.'

*AND HAVE YOU READ NOT JUST FRIENDS?* Please answer this question. SHE needs to read it or you need to highlight portions of the book that are relevant and read them aloud to her (that is what I did).


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

She cheated on you for a long and she is angry at you for interrupting. REALLY?
If it was me i should have shown her the door.
She is disrespecting you man..............................


----------



## aug

She probably thinks because her involvement with her "first love" hadnt been physical now, it's okay to keep talking to him.

But you know her mind and spirit have left your relationship already. Where her spirit is, her body will follow.

Frankly, I think she has too much time on her hands, being a stay-at-home mom. Her mind wanders and is now keeping herself fulfilled with thoughts of her first love.


----------



## TDSC60

Your wife will not admit the EA.
She will not admit to you her feelings for OM.
She will not admit that she is wrong in discussing you and the marriage with him.
She does not want to give him up.
She negotiated (transparency) terms to keep him. (and if you think she was going to freely let you read her messages to him you are nuts).
She resents you. She is not in love with you.
She does not value you or your marriage (private goodbye with OM or divorce).

You hope she is in "the fog" and will wake up. Since she feels forced into staying in the marriage, this will not happen. She needs some kind of shock to come out of it.

You might try telling her that you have tried, but are getting really frustrated and tired of being in a marriage of three people. That you have tried but you are tired of beating your head against the wall and she can talk to OM all she wants because you will not put up with the disrespect she continues to show you. Tell her she has made her choice and divorce it is. Filing can be stopped at anytime if she comes to you and begs you to stay.

It is extreme, but I feel at this point that is the only way you will get your wife back - if ever. She may simply be done and if she is, it is best to let the divorce go through.


----------



## TRy

island_of_one said:


> Is her demand to have a private good-bye really such a definitive statement on her opinion of our marriage...and her intentions of further wrong-doing? Guess I didn't read enough into it at the time and blew that one. After thinking about it, there is obviously no rational reason for her to need a private farewell if she really is going NC. As I review what happened, I now see how an ultimatum was sent my way (and I gave in). Arggh!


 Yes, her stating that she would "choose option B (divorce) over losing control of how she ends things" is a definitive statement of her opinion and you should tell her this when you tell her that you are changing your mind about the private farewell. You should also tell her that there is no good reason for it to be private if she truly put you and the marriage first. It is not too late to do the right thing.


island_of_one said:


> Not much progress today. She went to bed before I was finished helping my daughter with her science fair project. All I got out of her was that she says she sent a short email to OM asking if he is interested in speaking to her about the situation, or if his silence over the last 1-1/2 weeks is his answer. Obviously, not putting much faith into anything she tells me right now. She also made sure to mention her demand for privacy on how she handles this. Unfortunately, I didn't even get to rebutt before one of our kids came in the room. We will see what tomorrow brings. And what my VAR records.


 Are you kidding me? When something is on the table that is this important were you are both using the word divorce and she goes to bed mid discussion and you let her? Wake her up dude. You are letting her be in complete control as she dictates the terms right down to when you can talk about it. You need to man up and get angry when you are being disrespected this way. Go home and talk to her right now and if she is asleep, wake her up. Tell her that you changed your mind and there can be no more private conversations with the other man. Tell her that you are tired of being second to the other man with your own wife and that her days of secret intimacy with the other man must end. Tell her that there is only option A you or option B him. There is no option C of secret goodbyes.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> Is her demand to have a private good-bye really such a definitive statement on her opinion of our marriage...


It sure as hell is a statement of her opinion of your marriage relative to her "friendship" with the OM, right? Which relationship does she value more?

I'm agreeing with others, why aren't you pissed off about that???



island_of_one said:


> Not much progress today.


Let me tell you something really important. Your wife handed you the keys to your relationship. It damn well better be your way or the high way. Think about that for a second.

You have an opportunity here. You can change EVERYTHING. Do not let this pass you by. You will never get this chance again.

Do not be scared or afraid of this power. Go get what you want. Everything you've ever wanted in marriage, you now have an opportunity to lay it on the table right now.

The person who is responsible for progress is YOU. She wants status quo. She wants her hubby paying the bills while she fantasizes about her first love. Ugh it makes me sick.

YOU shake things up. YOU call the shots. YOU make it happen. YOU determine the timetable. Progress happens through YOU!!!!



SadandAngry said:


> You need to realize this is war though, and she is not on your side in her current state. Do not negotiate, draw the line, and hold it.


I hope you take this to heart. You are taking her lover away, even if it's not yet been physical the chemicals at work in her brain don't know the difference. She will fight kick scream (mostly figuratively!) to get her way.

Show her who the man in this relationship is!!!


----------



## Decorum

Ioo,
You are getting the right advice here.
What Carmen Ohio said last (last 2 posts) , please reread it.

Btw never agree to a seperation, thats just a cheaters dream, divorce has consequences!

Tell her you have rethought the private goodby, (I thought it hapoened already). That email breaks NC!
No respect. Not gonna happen!

There is another thread like this, after the husband enforced NC, the wife beat him up verbally for a couple days then he let her have it, I will post that link later, but things improved after that, let her be pissed thats a good thing! She will have to own it very shortly.

Dont give in at all, NC or divorce!

Its the only way to win her!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Will_Kane

island_of_one said:


> Is her demand to have a private good-bye really such a definitive statement on her opinion of our marriage...and her intentions of further wrong-doing? Guess I didn't read enough into it at the time and blew that one. After thinking about it, there is obviously no rational reason for her to need a private farewell if she really is going NC. As I review what happened, I now see how an ultimatum was sent my way (and I gave in). Arggh!
> 
> Not much progress today. *She went to bed *before I was finished helping my daughter with her science fair project. All I got out of her was that she says she sent a short email to OM asking if he is interested in speaking to her about the situation, or if his silence over the last 1-1/2 weeks is his answer. Obviously, not putting much faith into anything she tells me right now. *She also made sure to mention her demand for privacy on how she handles this.* Unfortunately, I didn't even get to rebutt before one of our kids came in the room. We will see what tomorrow brings. And what my VAR records.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for their thoughts today. I am learning (hopefully not too slowly!).


If one of your kids is sick, would you wake up your wife if needed? Because your marriage is sick, and you shouldn't let your wife avoid the issue by going to bed. If you need to talk, wake her up to talk. It won't kill her or even cause any serious injury. She will survive somehow.

So her position is, "I am saying goodbye to him forever, no future contact ever, and I agree to this; however, if you don't let me do it in private, I will divorce you?" Does this make any sense to you? To choose divorce if you don't agree to a private "good riddance forever"? One of the golden rules of dealing with cheaters is, *if a story does not make sense, it probably is a lie*. The very essence of cheating is lying, so her story being a lie makes perfect sense.

It's really a bad sign that she would choose to divorce you if you don't allow her to have a "private" goodbye.

Is she staying with you because she lacks the resources to leave you, or because she loves you and wants to work on the marriage?


----------



## Decorum

Here is the link to a guy whose wife was having a "non-Romantic emotional" affair. (There really is no such thing. its just under the surface)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ok-friend-my-feelings-jealousy-justified.html

This guy "got" what you are being told here (at lease a bit anyway) grew a pair, and things are improving now.

Read this, and think about it.

If she has lied to you AT ALL, deleted things so you cannot see them, used different ways to contact him, she will take it underground!

Eventually (after she was pissed for a couple of days) this guy called his wife on not caring about his feelings and jepordizing her marriage and she realized she was in deeper that she thought. (realy she was forced to face the truth she was denying to herself, for fear of losing her husband).

Do not let her bluff you, call her on it every time. If she knows you will fold she will get to that point when she has to.

If she is willing to tank your marriage, what do you have now?
I think she is playing you.


Stay strong, be clear, take a stand!


----------



## SadandAngry

Will_Kane said:


> Is she staying with you because she lacks the resources to leave you, or because she loves you and wants to work on the marriage?


Doesn't matter right now why. He will need to work on that soon, but for right now, he just has to establish solid NC.


----------



## Will_Kane

iheartlife said:


> Let's assume this is 100% true. Does this sound like 100% no contact forever to you?
> 
> No, this is exactly what you'd expect*--"let's discuss the fact that we shouldn't be talking." Which, guess what, leads to more talking, not zero talking.*
> 
> You have a second bite at this apple now as far as I'm concerned. She said she was going to privately end it, and she didn't. So tell her now that she had her chance, and instead she is telling you she didn't end it, and say goodbye, she asked him to discuss it with her.
> 
> Then show her a copy of a standard No Contact letter and tell her this is what must be sent and you will do it together. Tell her that she 'doesn't get it.'
> 
> *AND HAVE YOU READ NOT JUST FRIENDS?* Please answer this question. SHE needs to read it or you need to highlight portions of the book that are relevant and read them aloud to her (that is what I did).


I like this. _"Let's talk about not talking." _How long do you think it takes to tell someone _"I can't talk to you anymore, goodbye forever."_?

I think this is what your wife really wants to say: _"You know I've never stopped loving you and I understand you (are involved with another, don't feel the same way about me, or insert other reason), but I want you to know if the situation ever changes don't hesitate to get back in touch with me, I am staying married to my husband for now but you always will be number one in my heart and I will wait and hope and pray that someday we can live happily ever after together." _Maybe she'll throw in some convincing arguments as to why she thinks he should consider starting a romantic relationship with her now.


----------



## island_of_one

TRy said:


> Yes, her stating that she would "choose option B (divorce) over losing control of how she ends things" is a definitive statement of her opinion and you should tell her this when you tell her that you are changing your mind about the private farewell. You should also tell her that there is no good reason for it to be private if she truly put you and the marriage first. It is not too late to do the right thing.
> Are you kidding me? When something is on the table that is this important were you are both using the word divorce and she goes to bed mid discussion and you let her? Wake her up dude. You are letting her be in complete control as she dictates the terms right down to when you can talk about it. You need to man up and get angry when you are being disrespected this way. Go home and talk to her right now and if she is asleep, wake her up. Tell her that you changed your mind and there can be no more private conversations with the other man. Tell her that you are tired of being second to the other man with your own wife and that her days of secret intimacy with the other man must end. Tell her that there is only option A you or option B him. There is no option C of secret goodbyes.



I had planned on revoking the permission for a private good bye last night. I will do so tonight. As many have posted, wanting secrecy in saying good-bye is total bull. Her deadline for NC and providing all passwords, etc will be by tomorrow. If I can get the kids in bed early enough, I will demand that she do it tonight. Last night’s events (wife going to bed without continuing conversation) wasn’t ideal, but I don’t think one more day will be catastrophic. Neither of us had any appreciable amount of sleep the previous night, and I wasn’t done helping my daughter until fairly late in the evening anyway. In one respect, I am hoping that my wife Facetimed with OM today as I have the VAR running at home. I can at least find out her true intentions.


----------



## island_of_one

aug said:


> Frankly, I think she has too much time on her hands, being a stay-at-home mom. Her mind wanders and is now keeping herself fulfilled with thoughts of her first love.


I agree. In fact, I think by not making her work (she has a good degree), I have been enabling her to be spoiled and weak, and lacking of a self-identity outside of husband/mother. She needs to put on her big girl panties and be a productive member of something outside our house. BTW, the choice of your first words is very ironic- it contains OM’s first name.


----------



## tom67

island_of_one said:


> I agree. In fact, I think by not making her work (she has a good degree), I have been enabling her to be spoiled and weak, and lacking of a self-identity outside of husband/mother. She needs to put on her big girl panties and be a productive member of something outside our house. BTW, the choice of your first words is very ironic- it contains OM’s first name.


Just be very calm and stoic tonight no private goodbye if she wants a divorce well the you have your answer sorry but it's that simple she can email or call him I don't care.


----------



## island_of_one

There is a lot of good advice to incorporate. Not all of it is easy to swallow, mind you, but I see where everyone is coming from. The concept of taking a harder stance, not giving an inch, looking out for myself, taking control, being ready to use the divorce card, etc is sinking in. I admittedly suffer from nice guy syndrome (I took the assessment today and failed miserably). I realize that I should have been much angrier a long time ago. Being very conflict avoidant, I did not bring up the discoveries I made. My plan was to gather convincing evidence that the relationship was an EA and then confront her. Now that it is finally staring me in the face, I am still slow to react appropriately. I guess I was still trying to avoid the confrontation where I have to face my wife’s anger from my snooping. Knowing her betrayal is one thing different from truly accepting of the deception that she is capable of right now. When I read others’ stories, it is easy to grasp the waywards’ behaviors. I have just had a hard time being with her, and accepting the truth. I believe I am passed that now. 

Tonight’s conversation (or confrontation) should be telling. My wife did, almost, show a little ownership this morning. My wife is hyper-sensitive to my level of approval towards her. She started to get upset when I wasn’t acting normal this morning. She indicated that she was feeling angry at several things- mad at herself as she acknowledged that she did “this” to us, trying to decide if she hates herself for it, mad that she has caused me pain, grieving the loss of a friend, etc. We’ll see how she reacts tonight.


----------



## island_of_one

SadandAngry said:


> What steps have you taken to monitor the computer/devices?


Not a lot at the moment. I have the VAR in place to record FT. I can periodically get data off of her iPhone/iPad backup files. To truly monitor, I will need to jailbreak one of her IOS devices and put a keylogger/monitor on it. I just need to make sure I can achieve the jailbreak without it being readily detectable. I am almost never at home when she is not there, so it is tough getting something elaborate done on her devices. She does not use my computer at all (for fear of keylogger I believe).


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> Let's assume this is 100% true. Does this sound like 100% no contact forever to you?
> 
> No, this is exactly what you'd expect--"let's discuss the fact that we shouldn't be talking." Which, guess what, leads to more talking, not zero talking.
> 
> You have a second bite at this apple now as far as I'm concerned. She said she was going to privately end it, and she didn't. So tell her now that she had her chance, and instead she is telling you she didn't end it, and say goodbye, she asked him to discuss it with her.
> 
> Then show her a copy of a standard No Contact letter and tell her this is what must be sent and you will do it together. Tell her that she 'doesn't get it.'
> 
> *AND HAVE YOU READ NOT JUST FRIENDS?* Please answer this question. SHE needs to read it or you need to highlight portions of the book that are relevant and read them aloud to her (that is what I did).


My wife agreed Sunday night that she would go NC, but she has not done so yet. I did not get as far as setting a deadline for NC letter. Obviously, the no NC chat is not at all a NC arrangement. 

I have read Not Just Friends, but my wife has not. I am picking up a copy for her on my way home tonight. Also on my reading list are NMMNG, SAA, and MMSLP. We have HNHD and Five Languages already.


----------



## island_of_one

OldWolf57 said:


> Then give her that email of what she wants to give him and walk away.
> Let her try to explain her words, then ask how her how do she think that makes you feel. Knowing she got the hots for another guy.
> 
> Yeah it giving away a source, but you wanted all passwords anyway.
> 
> The thing is, there is no way she can gloss over that email especially with the telling him how she see him.
> 
> So stop worrying about her pain and start worrying about yours


I have debated just showing her what I know. The advice in here has been mixed on doing that. I don't see how she can rationalize her magic wand quote, so perhaps confronting with this letter would help speed up the process of de-fogging. I believe I could also use the same info to sway her GF, mom of what is going on. 

Or, maybe this is all irrelevant and I just need to force the NC letter and go from there. She can either meet my terms, or leave.


----------



## island_of_one

TDSC60 said:


> She negotiated (transparency) terms to keep him. (and if you think she was going to freely let you read her messages to him you are nuts).


You are absolutely correct on that one. Turns out while she was in NM, she forwarded all of her emails to/from OM to a new account which supposedly only her GF has password to. This was after she failed to copy them to a USB drive. So, once she gives me her passwords, I won't be able to go back see all that she has been up. Somehow she was expecting me to be glad that he emails were "gone." Yea, I am real happy about another dishonest move on her part.


----------



## Saki

Whilst it is refreshing to see some underlying passion in your posts (finally!) do remember to be incredibly calm and dismissive when you confront her. Your goal is a 30 second conversation, not a 4 hour discussion. You say your bit, clear concise no room for interpretation straight to the point than go on about your business (in fact, a good move would be plan to have something more urgent to attend to, like cleaning the insides of the toilets or changing the oil in your car), and let those wheels inside her head spin. Never play her games.

Think about this - is this message going to be more effective coming from a screaming lunatic or someone with a calm and level head?

Think of the great personalities in history - how seriously did people take Roosevelt or Churchill? Speak softly, carry a big stick.

Your demeanor should resemble that of someone who just took out the garbage. "oh by the way, you won't be getting your secret goodbye with frank (can't help but picture the guy from MASH, by the way). Please pass the ketchup"

Also, you never have to defend your feelings. They are yours, and that's all you need to say. You have a right to them and no one can take that away from you.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> Or, maybe this is all irrelevant and I just need to force the NC letter and go from there. She can either meet my terms, or leave.


Now you are getting it!

My stance is don't bother trying to explain crazy to crazy. It's an uphill battle at best. 

Do you really think she'd ever admit she was wrong on this grand a scale?


----------



## Decorum

In one respect,
You hope she Ft's with him so you can get it on the var, and learn her true intentions!
Man do I have mixed emotions about that, but since there is not clear nc established, that is one way of looking on the bright side. But if it were me I might have to be more than a little pissed at the brazen disrepect and disregard she showed to me/us in doing so, just maybe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadandAngry

You do not need to tell her exactly what you know, nor how you know it. If you do, you shoot yourself in the head with respect to verifying NC should she choose it. You must verify, before you begin to trust. Never reveal VAR. I would get rid of her apples. Get a different one, jailbreak it and install spyware and then give it to her. Then you will have narrowed her options for communicating. Much easier to monitor fewer options.


----------



## iheartlife

island_of_one said:


> My wife agreed Sunday night that she would go NC, but she has not done so yet. I did not get as far as setting a deadline for NC letter. Obviously, the no NC chat is not at all a NC arrangement.
> 
> I have read Not Just Friends, but my wife has not. I am picking up a copy for her on my way home tonight. Also on my reading list are NMMNG, SAA, and MMSLP. We have HNHD and Five Languages already.


My, you are way ahead of the book suggestion curve! Good going :smthumbup:

I'm glad you also have NMMNG and that you took the trouble to take a test to prove to yourself you can be more assertive. There is nothing wrong with being assertive! It is about a balance in the middle between aggressiveness and niceness. Assertive people are plenty nice! They just know that niceness is a gift to people who show _respect_ for your equality to them as a human being. You deserve that as much as the next guy.

That "dishonest" move your wife pulled forwarding OM's emails? That's just par for the course. Expect a lot more where that came from. From watching Intervention, I can tell you some great places to hide the gin (ceiling light fixtures, shrubbery in neighborhood rights-of-way, toilet tanks...). Wish it was so easy to categorize tech hide-and-seek. This is why you don't take their word that they've gone No Contact. You have to follow it up with verification, and as SadandAngry just said, if you give away your sources, then they are way ahead of the game when they take it underground.


----------



## OldWolf57

island_of_one said:


> Turns out while she was in NM, she forwarded all of her emails to/from OM to a new account which supposedly only her GF has password to. This was after she failed to copy them to a USB drive. So, once she gives me her passwords, I won't be able to go back see all that she has been up.


Why does this not make ANY sense to me ???

So OK, let me say this first, and I sincerely mean it too.
I am not trying to destroy your marriage, and truly hope the two of you can be as whole an healthy as the best marriages ever been.

Having said that, I call BS on her secreting away their emails.
Why are they so PRECIOUS that she wants them to exist even if she can't take them out and be a part of them. Which she can. But we will touch on that in a bit.
Now, these was written during your marriage, why has she developed feelings that deep for another man ?? It's called cheating, an EA. 
That shows she is committed to keeping these feelings any way she can.
These are not high school love letters to treasure a first love.
This is her investing mentally and emotionally in another man during her marriage, instead of in her and you.
Are they that damaging, but that precious ???
If so, then I would be VERY LEERY of a friend that knew my wife had feelings this deep for another man, but would STILL be OK helping her with her keepsakes. I mean, she's Ok with bf reading them, but the man she promised herself to can't
I say BS, if bf has password wife does too. Or I bet bf won't hold out if ww asked for it.

I really had to stop and debate before I wrote this, but after looking at your reading list, felt maybe, just maybe you are ready to be NMMNG. 

Trust But Verify Everything between these three !!!!


----------



## OldWolf57

Seems bf is already swayed. To help her keep her memories.


----------



## aug

She'll have to get rid of her enabling best friend if she moves forward in her reconciliation with you. That's part of her consequences for getting her best friend involved with her deceit.

btw, never reveal your source. She's already going deeper underground (for ex, forwarding/saving her emails to the OM). You need all your monitoring options to stay on top.


----------



## iheartlife

but how did he discover the emails--keylogger--or did the bf tip the WS's hand?

But I totally agree, the fact that she's hidden them proves that this is no innocent relationship ipso facto.


----------



## Saki

So whats up I O O?


----------



## island_of_one

OldWolf57 said:


> Why does this not make ANY sense to me ???
> 
> So OK, let me say this first, and I sincerely mean it too.
> I am not trying to destroy your marriage, and truly hope the two of you can be as whole an healthy as the best marriages ever been.
> 
> Having said that, I call BS on her secreting away their emails.
> Why are they so PRECIOUS that she wants them to exist even if she can't take them out and be a part of them. Which she can. But we will touch on that in a bit.
> Now, these was written during your marriage, why has she developed feelings that deep for another man ?? It's called cheating, an EA.
> That shows she is committed to keeping these feelings any way she can.
> These are not high school love letters to treasure a first love.
> This is her investing mentally and emotionally in another man during her marriage, instead of in her and you.
> Are they that damaging, but that precious ???
> If so, then I would be VERY LEERY of a friend that knew my wife had feelings this deep for another man, but would STILL be OK helping her with her keepsakes. I mean, she's Ok with bf reading them, but the man she promised herself to can't
> I say BS, if bf has password wife does too. Or I bet bf won't hold out if ww asked for it.
> 
> I really had to stop and debate before I wrote this, but after looking at your reading list, felt maybe, just maybe you are ready to be NMMNG.
> 
> Trust But Verify Everything between these three !!!!


I agree that storing away the previous emails is BS. I think my wife had two reasons for this. One, she accepts that I will have her passwords and she wants to limit the damage by keeping me from going back and reading her emails (rugsweeping alert!). Second, I think the correspondence is indeed precious is to her and she was/is not ready to wash away the connection. Back in May 11, I found the printouts she had made from the first month or so of emails exchanged with OM (which occurred in Oct 2010). The emails were put in the bottom of a drawer under some clothes- out of view but not seriously hidden. My wife’s explanations at the time included: she didn’t trust the webmail and didn’t want to risk losing the emails, and that she was, at one point, in (pleasant) disbelief that OM was in back in her life after a 15yr hiatus. So, she has shown the tendency to cling to record of letters to OM. In fact, now that I think about it, I remember her wanting to back up the few emails to/from OM back in the mid-90’s when we had just been married a couple years and email was a new thing. 

I am not sure of the BF’s role at this point. I do not know what my wife has told her, and I don’t know whether BF has read many of the emails. I have felt that BF was an enabler to some extent, but I am not sure if she is all in on the whole deal. I have no doubt that BF would provide login info to my wife if requested. My wife even acknowledged this much. What I will have to determine is whether the new account is just for storage, of if my wife attempts to start using it some point. At some point, I'll have to deal with the existence of this account.

There is zero chance that BF will be removed from the picture. They have been BFF’s for a very long time, and I know my wife will not even consider it an option. Even if BF is an enabler, she is not the cause of the problem. My wife is going to need a girlfriend to help work through things, and it will still be a while before she’s ready to use me as a confidant again. 

And, thanks for the words of encouragement. I am trying!


----------



## iheartlife

island_of_one said:


> I am not sure of the BF’s role at this point. I do not know what my wife has told her, and I don’t know whether BF has read many of the emails. I have felt that BF was an enabler to some extent, but I am not sure if she is all in on the whole deal. I have no doubt that BF would provide login info to my wife if requested. My wife even acknowledged this much. What I will have to determine is whether the new account is just for storage, of if my wife attempts to start using it some point. At some point, I'll have to deal with the existence of this account.


You understand that the core issue remains her attitude about this relationship.

Ultimately, the truth is in the digital age that a spouse has a limitless capacity for creating secret email, texting, and social network accounts. Or they can just take the record keeping out of it entirely and skype or call.

This isn't about controlling her and what she does or doesn't do with those emails and her account. This is about her choice to show you complete loyalty as her husband. She cannot do this while she is channeling the vast majority of her feelings, emotions, hopes, dreams, ideas, etc. etc. toward anyone else, let alone this OM.


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> but how did he discover the emails--keylogger--or did the bf tip the WS's hand?
> 
> But I totally agree, the fact that she's hidden them proves that this is no innocent relationship ipso facto.


Not sure if this is what you're asking, but wrt the discovery of the new email account, this info was volunteered by my wife. On Thanksgiving she admitted to deleting the emails and that she planned to keep her email logged in (instead of deleting the account every time she was done). I knew that there was more to it as I saw her safari history showing searches for saving emails to disk. I hadn’t said anything about it, but she acknowledged on her own a day or two later that she forwarded the emails. 

And clearly, she has to know it's not all innocent if she goes through the effort to hide the written evidence.


----------



## Will_Kane

So what happened when you confronted your wife about no private goodbye? Did she give you passwords yet? Send the no contact letter yet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> So whats up I O O?


Last night went reasonably under the circumstances. I did not follow the playbook exactly, but I think I did some positive things. When I got home last night, my wife had a long handwritten letter for me. It showed some ownership and remorse for having caused me pain (not yet to the point of admitting how) and some explanations on why she has behaved in certain ways toward me during our conflict. She also expressed, again, the fear of “what kind of person it makes her” if all that I have accused her of is true. In other words, she is not able to accept the meaning of what she has done…and the guilt/shame that will come with it. There wasn’t a real bottom line in her letter, but she was at least attempting to reach out and be a little bit open. 

So, after the kids were in bed (the science fair project is finally done!), I sat her down and explained a few things to her. I have a right to be happy, have my own needs, and to have a rewarding marriage. I don’t have to give up my happiness to provide for others. There are some basic, minimal expectations that I have for a wife: loyalty, respect, honesty, putting me above all others, etc. I stated that I didn’t have these things now, and unless both parties were committed to the marriage, we didn’t have a real marriage anyway. I stated that I was no longer going to put up with the disrespect, disloyalty, and dishonesty. I re-iterated that her first choice was full NC or we divorce. I am not going to support her in my house while she carries on with another man. Her second choice is whether she wants to reconcile with me…or not. She was calm and rational through all of this and was again able to show remorse for having made mistakes and hurting me. 

I then told her I had reconsidered my agreement for a fully private farewell. This started a lengthy discussion which was also calm and rational for a while. She revealed that she did not Facetime with OM yesterday (which I have since verified per VAR), but has arranged to talk on Thursday. I expressed why I thought this was a bad idea. She explained that she felt she owed OM a face to face explanation and that she wants some degree of closure. And obviously, she wants to feel like she has some degree of control in a situation where she feels I am being very controlling. Given her demeanor at the time, I did not feel she was truly trying to play me. So I suggested that she could have her FT and then follow it up with the NC letter (with my approval). At this point, the conversation and her demeanor changed- the WS monster showed up. It turns out that her version of NC was no contact for some indeterminate amount of time and that there was hope that one day she could have at least some limited degree of contact with the right controls in place. I think the plan to implement this version of NC was also part of the demand a private good bye. 

She eventually tried to demand to be allowed to at least open some window of opportunity for contact in the future. I was ready for her this time! I told her point blank that this was totally unacceptable. Anger and tears followed. I held to this line and made it clear that total NC was the only option. Eventually, my resolve on this sunk in and she agreed to the terms. I am going to allow her to FT Thur (she can’t today because our kids our out of school before OM is home from work). She will then send a NC letter and hand over passwords. I know that most will not agree to allow the FT call. But, I am OK with it as long as the end result is there and I have a way to verify that she makes it clear to him that there can’t be any more contact. She may tell him of her feelings directly, she may blame me for everything, and she may try to pry out any feelings from him, but she could have been doing things these anytime she chose. As I’ll be able to record the chat, I will know her intentions. She’ll get to have a little victory, but I’ll still get what I need. 

The conversation continued after that as we ran into the rug sweeping factor. Somewhere along the way I made a comment about her lying to my face, and she tried to play hurt and offended. She then said she wasn’t going to be able to go forward if she was going to be repeatedly bombarded with accusations. She needs to start with a clean slate. I told her that that was not possible if we are to reconcile, and at some point, to some degree, she’s going to have to own up to what exactly she has done. At this point she went back in minimizing the EA mode. I was eventually able to cut off this line of thought and explain that the focus is on what action is needed immediately- full NC. Everything else is down the road.

So, maybe I did things a bit differently than recommended, and tolerated more conversation than was needed, but I believe that the NC message was forcefully delivered. She has given every indication that she wants to stay together and work on things. While she is hurting and conflicted right now, she seems to understand where I am coming from. She’s not ready to admit anything new yet, but I’ll have to patient on that.


----------



## iheartlife

Your story in many ways echoes that of Gabriel, who actually did allow several months of "permissible" monitored communications if I recall correctly. That did not go well and ultimately he had to force the NC issue. His wife is very similar to yours in that she has known the OM for a very long time (20 years). His wife, however, has resisted perceiving the relationship as inappropriate on the basis that they can handle being "just friends." Your wife seems to have conceded there is a level of wrong to maintaining contact with this man. (I believe Gabriel deleted his latest thread, so that's why it won't turn up if you search for it.)

My typical recommendation in these situations is that you go to a counselor (well-educated about infidelity, this is important!) who will in no uncertain terms inform your wife that such a relationship with her "first love" is wrong, hurtful, and inappropriate etc. 

I'm sorry, you seem to understand it all, and you expressed yourself firmly and held the line with your wife, and then bizarrely gave in on the Facetime issue.

Here's the thing: 
would you be embarrassed to carry on a conversation with a sexually attractive person in front of your spouse? If the answer is yes, then you shouldn't be having that conversation.

WHAT CAN SHE POSSIBLY TELL HIM THAT YOU MAY NOT BE A WITNESS TO?? She continues to show him respect and loyalty, but not to you.


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> Your story in many ways echoes that of Gabriel, who actually did allow several months of "permissible" monitored communications if I recall correctly. That did not go well and ultimately he had to force the NC issue. His wife is very similar to yours in that she has known the OM for a very long time (20 years). His wife, however, has resisted perceiving the relationship as inappropriate on the basis that they can handle being "just friends." Your wife seems to have conceded there is a level of wrong to maintaining contact with this man. (I believe Gabriel deleted his latest thread, so that's why it won't turn up if you search for it.)
> 
> My typical recommendation in these situations is that you go to a counselor (well-educated about infidelity, this is important!) who will in no uncertain terms inform your wife that such a relationship with her "first love" is wrong, hurtful, and inappropriate etc.
> 
> I'm sorry, you seem to understand it all, and you expressed yourself firmly and held the line with your wife, and then bizarrely gave in on the Facetime issue.
> 
> Here's the thing:
> would you be embarrassed to carry on a conversation with a sexually attractive person in front of your spouse? If the answer is yes, then you shouldn't be having that conversation.
> 
> WHAT CAN SHE POSSIBLY TELL HIM THAT YOU MAY NOT BE A WITNESS TO?? She continues to show him respect and loyalty, but not to you.


While she has agreed to meet my ultimatum for NC, she has yet to acknowledge that the level of relationship has been inappropriate. At one point last night, she blamed the issue on me not be able to relate as I don’t have a separate best friend/confidant relationship outside of her. I told her the issue wasn’t about my friends. I hope she can eventually get the idea.

As for MC, I like talking to our counselor (who is really a psychologist who has a portion of her work with couples), but she is not the type that will give instructions on what to do. Her thing it to help each person understand the other’s perspective (which was zero help for stopping an EA). She seems to understand EA’s, but, until now, she has been really slow to view my wife’s relationship as an EA. 

I hear what you are saying that it is not appropriate to have conversations with OSF that you wouldn’t have in front of your spouse. But my wife has been living in that environment for so long, I am not too concerned about one more inappropriate conversation. I don’t see how it will change anything (short of something drastic like her deciding to leave me). If I were in her position (which she of course she shouldn’t have been in in the first place), I would want to have a final chat before signing off on the relationship. While it doesn’t make it right, and certainly doesn’t give me a warm fuzzy, I can understand the possibility of genuine (i.e. no planned deceits) interest in a verbal good-bye and a desire to honor the other person. Two decades ago, OM just simply stopped writing- that was his way of saying good bye. I think my wife is sensitived by this history. I realize that I am taking a risk, but my gut tells me that my wife isn’t planning anything drastic. The fact that I should be able to capture the conversation helps reduce the risk.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Why O why? 

Your rationalising why you gave into your wife talking alone to the OM and your way to confident that nothing will be planned or setup between them . Sit next to her as she should not be saying anything to the OM that she would not say in front of you. 

I strongly suggest you be there for the chat or terminate your agreement to let her make the call.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tom67

Eli-Zor said:


> Why O why?
> 
> Your rationalising why you gave into your wife talking alone to the OM and your way to confident that nothing will be planned or setup between them . Sit next to her as she should not be saying anything to the OM that she should not be saying in front of you.
> 
> I strongly suggest you be there for the chat or terminate your agreement to let her make the call.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:banghead::banghead::banghead:sorry I hope it works out for you


----------



## SadandAngry

There is no reason for her to speak to the OM again, ever, if she is in it with you. At this point, she isn't truly, and that's ok, and that is why you need to be the one to stand up fully for your marriage, now.

You can't be content to just record the convo either. What is she says something stupid? How can you call her on it without blowing your source? You can't. You do not negotiate! This is why. Now you have to go back and draw the line, again. This time have a NC letter ready, from one of the templates. One that states clearly she values her marriage, that she made a mistake, and that she does not want him to contact her again, in any way, in no uncertain terms. No Facetime. I cannot emphasize enough that this is not a game, she is not currently a friend of your marriage, stop assuming she is. Ok?


----------



## TDSC60

Have you made it clear that as part of NC, she must immediately tell you if the OM attempts to contact her. That she is not to respond to his attempts at contact in any way.

If he sends a text asking "How are you doing" she is not to respond, not even with "OK" and she must show you the text so you can respond to him as in "This is "wife's" husband. My wife and myself never want contact with you and you are not to contact us in any form." 

And certainly she is not to attempt contact with him. Any violation will result in divorce - no questions asked. You need to make this very, very clear.

I am sorry, but I think she is definitely in love with this man and is still putting him first. I am afraid she plans on laying low for a while then renew contact with a secret email account, a fake Facebook name, a burner phone, or even through her BFF (since she evidently used her before to help hide info from you). 

Like you said she thought NC meant she would reduce frequency of contact or stop for a while then start again in the future. She went nuts when told that NC means NC ever again.

Be vigilant. I don't think she is done. I am afraid she is just waiting for you to cool off and become comfortable, then she will start again. Hope I am wrong, but...................


----------



## TDSC60

Eli-Zor said:


> Why O why?
> 
> Your rationalising why you gave into your wife talking alone to the OM and your way to confident that nothing will be planned or setup between them . Sit next to her as she should not be saying anything to the OM that she would not say in front of you.
> 
> I strongly suggest you be there for the chat or terminate your agreement to let her make the call.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you have made up your mind to let her have her "private goodbye", by all means record it.

But tell her after she has had her time alone with him, you want her to keep him on the line because you have a few things to get straight with him.

Then tell him in her presence that the EA she has conducted has almost destroyed your marriage and you are giving her one last chance to be your wife. Tell him that if she contacts him again you will divorce her because she is choosing him over you and her family. Let them both understand that ANY contact at all will be the end for you.

I am betting that she will not agree to this because he is still her #1 with you not even a close second. You are just the babysitter and the ATM nothing more since she still does not own what she did and still does not have true remorse or understand what damage she has caused.


----------



## SadandAngry

TDSC60 said:


> If you have made up your mind to let her have her "private goodbye", by all means record it.
> 
> But tell her after she has had her time alone with him, you want her to keep him on the line because you have a few things to get straight with him.
> 
> Then tell him in her presence that the EA she has conducted has almost destroyed your marriage and you are giving her one last chance to be your wife. Tell him that if she contacts him again you will divorce her because she is choosing him over you and her family. Let them both understand that ANY contact at all will be the end for you.
> 
> I am betting that she will not agree to this because he is still her #1 with you not even a close second. You are just the babysitter and the ATM nothing more since she still does not own what she did and still does not have true remorse or understand what damage she has caused.


Pay attention to the thoughts here. Do not do this though, it would be very reckless. It is best all around for them to never speak again. The line she gave you about closure is utter bs, whether she realizes it or not (probably not). She isn't going to get anything she needs out of talking to him again that is important for the survival of your marriage. The survival of the affair, sure, but not your marriage.


----------



## walkonmars

What are you going to do when you hear her tell him she is being forced to send a NC letter and that he should just ignore it?


----------



## SadandAngry

walkonmars said:


> What are you going to do when you hear her tell him she is being forced to send a NC letter and that he should just ignore it?


Exactly, you can't do much in that case without blowing your source. Do not get in that situation to start.


----------



## iheartlife

island_of_one said:


> As for MC, I like talking to our counselor (who is really a psychologist who has a portion of her work with couples), but she is not the type that will give instructions on what to do. Her thing it to help each person understand the other’s perspective (which was zero help for stopping an EA). She seems to understand EA’s, but, until now, she has been really slow to view my wife’s relationship as an EA.


This is not good. Not good.

A great marriage counselor who doesn't understand emotional affairs? There is no such thing. There just isn't!

Your MC sounds like our FIRST MC. The one who never asked my husband if he was still in contact with his EA AP. Little ol' me, I was as naive as you were, and never once thought to ask. But our current counselor would have not only asked, he would have requested ALL the details about how the affair ended and how my H was making sure it had ended.

Our first MC? I'm figuring we spent a cool $3K on him. He is a psychiatrist (they have an MD) and he works in a wealthy neighborhood. He came highly recommended. There is no doubt in my mind that he treats the rich and powerful (which we are not). So for six months I sat next to my H while he rugswept everything. All he needed to hear was that there was no physical component, and he leap-frogged ahead to 'what's wrong with the marriage.' That's a nice convo to have...at the appropriate time. And I will tell you, that while a WS is still in contact, and has not admitted to the pain they're causing you, etc., have not expressed remorse, that is the cart before the horse! WAAAY BEFORE!

So anyway, my H lied to the therapist, and lied to naive me. I had to catch him AGAIN...3 years later. Our NEW MC (who we saw for 10 sessions, about 15 hours total) is terrific. He didn't go to such a great school, and he can't prescribe meds, but he knows infidelity. He pulled NJF off the shelf, he knew all about No Contact, Exposure, Verification, Remorse...(not those words per se but was highly familiar with the concepts). THAT is the kind of counselor you're looking for.

If you like this therapist, see them on your own. But as an MC, you are throwing good money away if they are as naive as you are about emotional affairs! Anyone can say they're a marriage counselor, that doesn't make them one.

After I discovered that my H had lied to our first therapist (a couple of weeks after DD#2--almost like a DD#3 for me), I was overcome with the need to talk to the first MC. So I gave him a call and told him my husband had lied to us both. I was very unemotional about it, I just told him how I didn't realize how powerful affairs were, how the deception becomes second nature, etc etc. And (vets have heard me say this before) do you know what he said to me?????

"How does that make you feel?"


Sound familiar? Please, find a new marriage counselor. Keep this one as an IC if you must, but find a new counselor.

Here is how I found our terrific counselor:
contacted a local porn / Internet addict counseling practice group. My husband is neither, but I surmised that they would be highly familiar with compulsions and addictions (which affairs are) and that they would also be quite acquainted with infidelity (for obvious reasons). I called them up and asked for referrals to their best marriage counselors. Bingo. The counselors they suggested knew their stuff, and we picked the one who was available and have never looked back.


----------



## carmen ohio

island_of_one said:


> Last night went reasonably under the circumstances. I did not follow the playbook exactly, but I think I did some positive things. When I got home last night, my wife had a long handwritten letter for me. It showed some ownership and remorse for having caused me pain (not yet to the point of admitting how) and some explanations on why she has behaved in certain ways toward me during our conflict. She also expressed, again, the fear of “what kind of person it makes her” if all that I have accused her of is true. In other words, she is not able to accept the meaning of what she has done…and the guilt/shame that will come with it. There wasn’t a real bottom line in her letter, but she was at least attempting to reach out and be a little bit open.
> 
> So, after the kids were in bed (the science fair project is finally done!), *I sat her down and explained a few things to her. I have a right to be happy, have my own needs, and to have a rewarding marriage. I don’t have to give up my happiness to provide for others. There are some basic, minimal expectations that I have for a wife: loyalty, respect, honesty, putting me above all others, etc. I stated that I didn’t have these things now, and unless both parties were committed to the marriage, we didn’t have a real marriage anyway. I stated that I was no longer going to put up with the disrespect, disloyalty, and dishonesty. I re-iterated that her first choice was full NC or we divorce. I am not going to support her in my house while she carries on with another man. Her second choice is whether she wants to reconcile with me…or not. She was calm and rational through all of this and was again able to show remorse for having made mistakes and hurting me.
> 
> I then told her I had reconsidered my agreement for a fully private farewell. This started a lengthy discussion which was also calm and rational for a while.* She revealed that she did not Facetime with OM yesterday (which I have since verified per VAR), but has arranged to talk on Thursday. I expressed why I thought this was a bad idea. She explained that she felt she owed OM a face to face explanation and that she wants some degree of closure. And obviously, she wants to feel like she has some degree of control in a situation where she feels I am being very controlling. Given her demeanor at the time, I did not feel she was truly trying to play me. So *I suggested that she could have her FT and then follow it up with the NC letter (with my approval). At this point, the conversation and her demeanor changed- the WS monster showed up.* It turns out that her version of NC was no contact for some indeterminate amount of time and that there was hope that one day she could have at least some limited degree of contact with the right controls in place. I think the plan to implement this version of NC was also part of the demand a private good bye.
> 
> She eventually tried to demand to be allowed to at least open some window of opportunity for contact in the future. I was ready for her this time! I told her point blank that this was totally unacceptable. Anger and tears followed. I held to this line and made it clear that total NC was the only option. Eventually, my resolve on this sunk in and she agreed to the terms. *I am going to allow her to FT Thur (she can’t today because our kids our out of school before OM is home from work).* She will then send a NC letter and hand over passwords. I know that most will not agree to allow the FT call. But, I am OK with it as long as the end result is there and I have a way to verify that she makes it clear to him that there can’t be any more contact. She may tell him of her feelings directly, she may blame me for everything, and she may try to pry out any feelings from him, but she could have been doing things these anytime she chose. As I’ll be able to record the chat, I will know her intentions. She’ll get to have a little victory, but I’ll still get what I need.
> 
> The conversation continued after that as we ran into the rug sweeping factor. Somewhere along the way I made a comment about her lying to my face, and she tried to play hurt and offended. She then said she wasn’t going to be able to go forward if she was going to be repeatedly bombarded with accusations. She needs to start with a clean slate. I told her that that was not possible if we are to reconcile, and at some point, to some degree, she’s going to have to own up to what exactly she has done. At this point she went back in minimizing the EA mode. I was eventually able to cut off this line of thought and explain that the focus is on what action is needed immediately- full NC. Everything else is down the road.
> 
> So, maybe I did things a bit differently than recommended, and tolerated more conversation than was needed, but I believe that the NC message was forcefully delivered. She has given every indication that she wants to stay together and work on things. While she is hurting and conflicted right now, she seems to understand where I am coming from. She’s not ready to admit anything new yet, but I’ll have to patient on that.


Dear i_o_o,

You still don't get it. As long as you were in control of the conversation, your WW listened to you (first bolded text above). As soon as you indicated your willingness to compromise (i.e., as soon as you started to "cave"), she started yelling at you. *Get it now?*

And, after all your WW wife has put you through, why in the world would you think that she wasn't trying to play you last night?! Worse, why would you give her *permission* to do what she's been demanding all along, one "last" private conversation with the OM? As others have told you, the fact that she demands this means it won't be the last.

I wish you luck. But what I expect to happen is that, six months to a year from now, you'll start another thread about how your reconciliation with your WW _somehow_ failed and that she's back talking to the OM (or that she never stopped talking to him).


----------



## OldWolf57

The next time she try to minimize, ask her why in the hell are you going thru all this.
Then ask her wasn't you suppose to be her bf.

Besides, she has a bf. She just visited her. So how can an xbf she have feelings for be that ??
Truthfully, you need to find a REAL IC. You are just throwing good money after bad everytime you go back.

You know, I actually see your point and her's too. 
You had the opportunity to kill this early in the marriage.
So years later when they reconnected, she would have known you wouldn't put up with them corresponding.


----------



## island_of_one

Last night was a turning point. Everything seemed pretty normal in the evening, except that my wife was conveniently on the phone right after the kids got in bed- which seemed to me to be an attempt to avoid talking to me. I had asked her earlier in the evening what she and her bf had been talking about wrt to recent events, and my wife wanted to finish dinner first. In any case, when I asked again she gave a short answer that bf was just being supportive and trying not to take sides. 

After that, I handed some reading material to my wife that I suggested she should look at before the final chat with OM. I gave her a couple of good articles explaining EA’s, a few example NC letters, a list of what should be on a NC letter, and a brand new copy of NJF. Well, things got ugly after that- her WS monster came out in full force! I now at least recognize her mannerisms when she is in EA/BS mode trying to defend, minimize, push back, gaslight, etc. She did (what I gather is) the stereotypical WS throw everything at me fit. She claimed I was changing things from what I said yesterday, that I was controlling, that she didn’t know if she could stay with me if this kind of unilateral behavior continued, that she’s afraid that she’ll never be able to tell me enough details to satisfy me, that this all started with me obsessing, that she now wants a 3rd party arbitrator (this was the most repetitive comment), etc, etc. OMG! She turned into a lunatic! 

I have never seen her behave in this manner. At one point in the discussion, I was really ready to go straight to a D lawyer’s office. The question of “why do I want to stay with this person?” really sunk it. It is amazing what an EA can do to an otherwise rational and loving person. I somehow thought she was different, or at least not as addicted as you all indicated. She has done a masterful job of acting pretty normal throughout the last couple years. I knew it was an EA, but she had me fooled on how deeply entangled she really is. 

I kept coming back to two points with her. First, the priority is full NC and nothing else matters until that is done. Second, if she wants to stay married then she better start acting like it. She had told me earlier in the evening that she had sent a short email to OM about FT’ing tomorrow (which was confusing because I thought she had already done that). So, I called her on it and said show me the email. Sounds easy enough, right? Well, she acted like it was the end of the world. I didn’t relent and she finally logged in and showed me the email- which turned out to be exactly what she said it was. Of course, any other emails to/from OM were erased already. Then I told her that she needed to do the NC letter immediately. Amazingly, after a little huffing and puffing, she sat down and wrote a good NC email based on the examples I showed her. I hit the send button. 

She followed that up with providing her email account passwords. I verified the passwords and implemented some user restrictions. She won’t be doing any Facetiming for a while! The other primary restriction was to prevent adding email accounts to her apple devices. She can still use webmail, but that is much easier to track by analyzing backup files from iTunes. If she starts using another account on one of her devices, I’ll find it. 

I’m not sure what to make of her behavior afterwards. She stopped being angry, and she wasn’t crying over the sudden closure with OM. Don’t know if she was just stunned, or if she just hasn’t given up yet. The NC letter was a start, but it became really clear how long of a process this will be. 

A couple of other questions. Do I talk to bf to see which side of the fence she is on? If she see it as an EA, she could be very helpful. Do I try to get the password for the new email account? Should I also contact OM to be clear about the consequences of further contact?


----------



## iheartlife

You know you've been a doormat when your wife starts to call you controlling. Don't be cowed by that term, it only works on men who are anything but.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> This is not good. Not good.
> 
> A great marriage counselor who doesn't understand emotional affairs? There is no such thing. There just isn't!
> 
> Your MC sounds like our FIRST MC. The one who never asked my husband if he was still in contact with his EA AP. Little ol' me, I was as naive as you were, and never once thought to ask. But our current counselor would have not only asked, he would have requested ALL the details about how the affair ended and how my H was making sure it had ended.
> 
> Our first MC? I'm figuring we spent a cool $3K on him. He is a psychiatrist (they have an MD) and he works in a wealthy neighborhood. He came highly recommended. There is no doubt in my mind that he treats the rich and powerful (which we are not). So for six months I sat next to my H while he rugswept everything. All he needed to hear was that there was no physical component, and he leap-frogged ahead to 'what's wrong with the marriage.' That's a nice convo to have...at the appropriate time. And I will tell you, that while a WS is still in contact, and has not admitted to the pain they're causing you, etc., have not expressed remorse, that is the cart before the horse! WAAAY BEFORE!
> 
> So anyway, my H lied to the therapist, and lied to naive me. I had to catch him AGAIN...3 years later. Our NEW MC (who we saw for 10 sessions, about 15 hours total) is terrific. He didn't go to such a great school, and he can't prescribe meds, but he knows infidelity. He pulled NJF off the shelf, he knew all about No Contact, Exposure, Verification, Remorse...(not those words per se but was highly familiar with the concepts). THAT is the kind of counselor you're looking for.
> 
> If you like this therapist, see them on your own. But as an MC, you are throwing good money away if they are as naive as you are about emotional affairs! Anyone can say they're a marriage counselor, that doesn't make them one.
> 
> After I discovered that my H had lied to our first therapist (a couple of weeks after DD#2--almost like a DD#3 for me), I was overcome with the need to talk to the first MC. So I gave him a call and told him my husband had lied to us both. I was very unemotional about it, I just told him how I didn't realize how powerful affairs were, how the deception becomes second nature, etc etc. And (vets have heard me say this before) do you know what he said to me?????
> 
> "How does that make you feel?"
> 
> 
> Sound familiar? Please, find a new marriage counselor. Keep this one as an IC if you must, but find a new counselor.
> 
> Here is how I found our terrific counselor:
> contacted a local porn / Internet addict counseling practice group. My husband is neither, but I surmised that they would be highly familiar with compulsions and addictions (which affairs are) and that they would also be quite acquainted with infidelity (for obvious reasons). I called them up and asked for referrals to their best marriage counselors. Bingo. The counselors they suggested knew their stuff, and we picked the one who was available and have never looked back.


Totally agree that I found the wrong MC for my situation. At least the visits have been covered by insurance so it has not been super expensive yet. Your method for finding a MC who can deal with affairs sounds brilliant. I will give it a try.


----------



## Acabado

She had a tantrum. Just ignore the "controling" thing.
Keep being firm. I can garantee you she will keep demanding her pund of flesh "in exchange". Go low key. I can garantee you whatever complais she may haver will vanish more quickly then you imagine. Don't put your head in the sand (after all your goal is a better marriage, right?) but don't fall for the blameshigting game. Pretend for a while.

You did right. Hang tough!


----------



## costa200

island_of_one, if we met in person i'm pretty sure i would like to be your friend. You sound like an upstanding guy, always caring for what your wife is feeling and how she will see things and always not wanting to hurt her. This after she had demonstrably been the complete opposite. 

Your wife is lucky to have a guy like you. Hell knows i would have stomped this situation like a enraged bull and it would probably involve packed bags if my requests were not complied with sufficient haste and enthusiasm right at DDay. I hope she grows to appreciate you more. What you do for your family and your willingness to work for your marriage.

On a side note, if one was to read these forums only, one would think that when you're called "controlling" you must be doing something right...


----------



## Saki

3rd party arbitrator? WTF? :scratchhead:

Remember to always go back to: the only thing that matters is what is ok by you!!

Sounds like you are starting to really "get it" and she might be too.

Remember that all your EA articles and the such tell her will be interpretted as saying the same thing: she's wrong, she's a bad person. This is not a message that is well received, by women, in this situation.

So don't get yourself stuck on trying to get her to understand "why" it's bad. You understand why it's bad...sojust draw up the boundries as you see fit and you'll be covered.

She will either respect the boundries or not (and you know what happens if she dosen't)..."why" really dosen't matter. She dosen't need to comprehend, she just needs to follow the rules.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> 3rd party arbitrator? WTF? :scratchhead:
> 
> Remember to always go back to: the only thing that matters is what is ok by you!!
> 
> Sounds like you are starting to really "get it" and she might be too.
> 
> Remember that all your EA articles and the such tell her will be interpretted as saying the same thing: she's wrong, she's a bad person. This is not a message that is well received, by women, in this situation.
> 
> So don't get yourself stuck on trying to get her to understand "why" it's bad. You understand why it's bad...sojust draw up the boundries as you see fit and you'll be covered.
> 
> She will either respect the boundries or not (and you know what happens if she dosen't)..."why" really dosen't matter. She dosen't need to comprehend, she just needs to follow the rules.


You are correct that she will see EA articles as saying she is wrong/bad. So, I'm not holding out much hope that they will clarify anything for her. Enforcing boundaries will be a good start. But, I am eventually going to need to hear from her mouth some of the things she has done (hid this, lied about that, felt this way, etc), before reconciliation will be possible. Right now, she admits she caused me pain nothing beyond that. 

The third party ploy was almost comical really. She was just desparately trying to find a way to change my mind. I am not bothered by the controlling comments, or any of the other rationalizations and accusations. She is full of BS at the moment. 

I can understand lying desparately if a WS is trying to continue the affair, but once the plug is pulled on the affair, does some form of normal thinking and honesty return eventually? I can forgive the affair, but it is the constant denial and lying about it that is intolerable. Wish I knew when it would end....


----------



## SadandAngry

It will take time. If NC is maintained she should go through withdrawal, and the fog starts to lift. She may start to see the reality of things, may start to own her actions, and be remorseful. You need to be ice cold and unswerving in regards to OM, but also need to step up your game as a husband and companion to meet her needs at the same time. It will become a ridiculous kind of balancing act for you.

She will need to commit to you, and work hard at some point to prove her intentions, hopefully before you start to get really angry. You need to realize this will all take time, but it is possible. You seem to be getting it a bit more each day. You were right to keep falling back to your minimal acceptable standards and not negotiate away from them this time. Now you have a chance.


----------



## iheartlife

Like SadandAngry says, after a period of withdrawal (where, if true NC is honored, she could alternate between trying to make the marriage work / anger / depression / resentment etc.), after several weeks--about 6 to 8--you ought to see a significant improvement in her attitude toward you.

Using my H as an illustration--his affair, especially in the final year, basically consisted in talking several times a week, maybe a few minutes a day, while to / from and at work, to his AP. They also texted and emailed. At that point their relationship was mostly about "how's it going," and "what are you up to," and "can you believe x, y, z"--basically sharing ideas, hopes, dreams, funny jokes, stories, etc.

So, post NC, I aimed to firmly supplant all of that. So what I do now is text 2 or 3 times during the day, meet him for lunch at work once a week, listen for as long as he wants to talk about anything, basically turned myself into a big, responsive sounding board for whatever might be on his mind. I would have been that for him before, but my H, like your W, had turned someone else into that. 

And while certainly many people, and your W might be one of them, enjoy telling some stories more than once, I know there was a huge amount he was never telling me, for no other reason than he had already shared them with his primary confidant, her. That is what I see needing to change between you two--you need to figure out how to become her primary confidant. That is how you're going to get her through the withdrawal phase to where she thinks of you FIRST when she has something to share, which isn't going to happen overnight.


----------



## warlock07

Does she have a 3rd party in mind ? I don't see why it should be so bad !! Only condition you should have is that she gives you all her mails sent to this guy.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> I can understand lying desparately if a WS is trying to continue the affair, but once the plug is pulled on the affair, does some form of normal thinking and honesty return eventually? I can forgive the affair, but it is the constant denial and lying about it that is intolerable. Wish I knew when it would end....


At this point for her it's about her image in her mind. She is trying to rationalize and minimize this, not only to you, but to herself as well.

Personally, my wife turned from lying, coniving (sp?), crap spewing dragon to very nice, respectible, attentive wifey relatively quickly - a couple of weeks. You'll probably know you are there when the hysterical bonding begins. In the meantime, really take to heart the idea of working on yourself and running the 180 - for YOU not for your marriage!

Its pretty amazing to watch the transformation take place, and also to look back and remember the way they transfered out of your relationship in the first place. This, having typed it, is really the proof of the truth of the "red pill". I can say I learned a lot about women (ie they aren't special), and about reality (ie neither are you!!!), having gone through my experience.



iheartlife said:


> Using my H as an illustration--his affair, especially in the final year, basically consisted in talking several times a week, maybe a few minutes a day, while to / from and at work, to his AP. They also texted and emailed. At that point their relationship was mostly about "how's it going," and "what are you up to," and "can you believe x, y, z"--basically sharing ideas, hopes, dreams, funny jokes, stories, etc.
> 
> So, post NC, I aimed to firmly supplant all of that. So what I do now is text 2 or 3 times during the day, meet him for lunch at work once a week, listen for as long as he wants to talk about anything, basically turned myself into a big, responsive sounding board for whatever might be on his mind. I would have been that for him before, but my H, like your W, had turned someone else into that.


I personally do not fully agree with this thought. I do agree with the fact that you need to look at your marriage and identify where you are falling short of meeting your spouses needs, and step your game up there. I O O you'll find you are at a place, personally, where you are capable of receiving critical feedback AND making genuine change. Take advantage of that and make some progress as a husband.

On the other hand, I _firmly_ refuse to play the OM's game. I _want_ to maximize my potential as a person but I refuse to do it someone else's way. I'm not going to text and call my wife the way he did, just because he was her affair partner. I WILL NOT compete with him.


----------



## iheartlife

Saki said:


> I personally do not fully agree with this thought. I do agree with the fact that you need to look at your marriage and identify where you are falling short of meeting your spouses needs, and step your game up there. I O O you'll find you are at a place, personally, where you are capable of receiving critical feedback AND making genuine change. Take advantage of that and make some progress as a husband.
> 
> On the other hand, I _firmly_ refuse to play the OM's game. I _want_ to maximize my potential as a person but I refuse to do it someone else's way. I'm not going to text and call my wife the way he did, just because he was her affair partner. I WILL NOT compete with him.


No, I think we are in agreement. In other words, I am not what she (his AP) was--an unrelenting source of insipid, sycophantic compliments who never argued or disagreed. I'm sure she was fawning, affirming, a veritable fountain of validating nonsense.

My point wasn't that you should be something you're not.

But the OP and I are similar--unbeknownst to us, our spouses took it upon themselves to 'data dump' their innermost feelings with someone else. That is a role that ought to be reserved for a spouse. That is all that I'm saying. I was just illustrating how I've taken steps to fill that role. One of my H's love languages is Words of Affirmation; it's important to him, so I meet that need.

As I said, I was perfectly willing to be that before. I'm not twisting myself or altering myself in order to do this. I'm just specifically putting myself into that role, now that I understand what it means for him--in a healthy, positive way.

Believe me, I am assertive to a fault, meaning I have to keep my more aggressive side in check. I am no shrinking violet.


----------



## carmen ohio

island_of_one said:


> ...
> 
> I kept coming back to two points with her. First, the priority is full NC and nothing else matters until that is done. Second, if she wants to stay married then she better start acting like it. ... Then I told her that she needed to do the NC letter immediately. Amazingly, after a little huffing and puffing, she sat down and wrote a good NC email based on the examples I showed her. I hit the send button.
> 
> ... I’m not sure what to make of her behavior afterwards. She stopped being angry, and she wasn’t crying over the sudden closure with OM. Don’t know if she was just stunned, or if she just hasn’t given up yet. ...
> 
> A couple of other questions. Do I talk to bf to see which side of the fence she is on? If she see it as an EA, she could be very helpful. Do I try to get the password for the new email account? Should I also contact OM to be clear about the consequences of further contact?


Dear I_o_o,

I think you get it now. When you are weak, your WW yells. When you are strong, your WW listens. And when you put your foot down, your WW complies.

You shouldn't be surprised by this. It's basic female psychology. Woman are more docile in the presence of a strong male, and more selfish in the presence of a weak one. Learn from this experience. Also, start reading Blog | Married Man Sex Life

Don't contact her BF or the OM, those are acts of weakness. Keep letting her know what you expect from her and what the consequences will be if she fails.

Do get any and all passwords to devices she uses and check these regularly but, if possible, unobtrusively.

Do give her a little time to start behaving like a remorseful WW, but not too much time and do keep letting her know that divorce is still an option for you if she does not mend her ways.

Do act like a confident man, one who can have a great life either with or without her. Start exercising. Spend some time without her doing things you like to do. But also look for opportunities to brighten up her life with interesting, even exciting things the two of you can do together.

Don't compliment or flatter her, thank her for things or otherwise put her on a pedestal. When she does right, she deserves nothing from you because that is what she owes you. When she does wrong, she deserves to be told.

Do give her lots of good sex.

Basically, you want to be the best man you can be so that she will be attracted to you again. You also want to demonstrate that the two of you can have a great life together. But you need to teach her that you will only stick around if she puts you FIRST in her life.

If you do all these things, and if your WW wants to make her marriage work (and I think the signs are that she does), then she will eventually come around, admit her "sins" and start to treat you right. But it all depends on you not returning to being Mr. Milquetoast.

Keep up the good work.


----------



## island_of_one

Thanks for the insights on the upcoming post-NC phase. The alternating pattern is starting to show already. Yesterday she wrote me a nice note where she was "applying for the job" of being wife again, conceded the need for a "probabation period," and asking what I needed from her on a daily basis. In other words, lots of nice sounding things about wanting to work on things and acknowledging (in a vague way) that she hasn't been doing a good job. I would really like to believe that she is sincere. Alas....

Last night, she and bf were texting and I noticed that my wife deleted a few messages. I saw the word "paranoid" in an sms from bf. I had the VAR on yesterday, and just listened to an conversation between W and bf which I believe was entirely about trying to determine if there is spyware on her iphone. I think bf was doing some research for my W. Don't know if this is an indication that she wants to know what she can get away with (ie planning to contact OM), or if W thinks that me monitoring her behavior is a breaking point for her. Hard to say whether her objection to be monitored is on principle or just trying to protect her secrets. I'm sure my wife realizes that I know more than what she has told me since I am 100% sure of her having an EA. Perhaps she is trying to figure out my sources of info. Ironically, at the moment I do not have anything loaded on her devices.

In any case, it doesn't give me re-assurance that she is truly prepared for full NC and to work on the marriage. In her note from yesterday, she opened with wanting some re-assurance that I wanted to still be in the marriage. Apparently, I didn't give a very convincing answer duirng our fight the other night. Of course, right now, I am really not sure. I guess I need to convince myself that her true personality will eventually win out when the fogs lifts. 

Tonight, I am going to write down for her the terms for NC to make sure she understands what the consequences are for any deceit on her part (D!!). Deleting texts is not going to be on the OK list. I will also make it clear that if bf is helping hide things, I'm not going to be OK with bf. 

We have an appt to go back to our MC on Monday. This was at my wife's insistence. My wife was actually playing the boundaries card the other night as she thinks I am crossing boundaries by wanting to see what she is doing and saying. BS!! I contacted a different MC (which I got a referral to from a sub. abuse place) but wasn't able to interview her yet. We'll see what our current MC says on Monday. My wife indicated that she may want to go on her own.

As for me, I'm not sure how to act at home right now. I am angry and distrustful and don't know what to think of W right now. On the other hand, if I show that I am angry it will probably make things worse. 

BTW, my copy of Married Man Sex Life Primer is on order.


----------



## Eli-Zor

island_of_one said:


> Tonight, I am going to write down for her the terms for NC to make sure she understands what the consequences are for any deceit on her part (D!!).
> Deleting texts is not going to be on the OK list. *YES*
> I will also make it clear that if bf is helping hide things, I'm not going to be OK with bf. -*YES , she goes NC on the BF and lets the BF know in your presence you know that the BF is not a friend of the marriage*
> 
> We have an appt to go back to our MC on Monday. This was at my wife's insistence. My wife was actually playing the boundaries card the other night as she thinks I am crossing boundaries by wanting to see what she is doing and saying. BS!! *typical wayward ploy and a way to detract from her affair and bad behaviour
> *
> 
> I contacted a different MC (which I got a referral to from a sub. abuse place) but wasn't able to interview her yet. We'll see what our current MC says on Monday. My wife indicated that she may want to go on her own.
> 
> *Only once you have confirmed the MC is marriage friendly and understands the principles of dealing with an affair *
> 
> As for me, I'm not sure how to act at home right now. I am angry and distrustful and don't know what to think of W right now. On the other hand, if I show that I am angry it will probably make things worse.
> 
> 
> *Patience, see a doctor for support and go out with trusted friends. The roller coaster of emotions is going to be with you for a while*


----------



## SadandAngry

Take some time to write out your take on life. What is truly important to you. What do you believe, deep down? What do you want? Where do you want to go? Where are you now? Is there a discrepancy? obviously there is. How do you account for that? How do you bridge the gap? Where does she fit in (feel free to attach the conditions to this)? What are your deficiencies? How will you address them? You can do this honestly, from a strong place, where she can be with you, or not. You aren't begging, you aren't negotiating, you are clarifying who you are, what you want, and what you will not accept. Do you understand? Give her hope for your marriage, but none for the A what so ever.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> entirely about trying to determine if there is spyware on her iphone. I think bf was doing some research for my W. Don't know if this is an indication that she wants to know what she can get away with (ie planning to contact OM), or if W thinks that me monitoring her behavior is a breaking point for her. Hard to say whether her objection to be monitored is on principle or just trying to protect her secrets.


Well here's the deal, the principal that is important is that in a truly intimate relationship, there are no secrets. There should be nothing that is said in any context that would be off limits to your partner. 

Now this is a 2 way street, not only should someone be comfortable saying something with their spouse around, but they also need to be comfortable that their spouse could handle hearing something (like "i'm not happy about this facet of my relationship") without getting all bent out of shape. In other words, you have to have the self confidence and awareness to understand not everything is happy happy happy and perfect and be willing to HEAR what the other person is saying without defensiveness.

This is the first thing I've heard about the bf that really seems negative. Don't jump to conclusions though, and don't blow the cover on your VAR either. 

You will have to learn to use your poker face for a while.

Also, consider the effect that constant monitoring has on YOU. It's a necessary evil, but keep it in moderation and try to cut back as time goes on. For your own sake.



island_of_one said:


> In her note from yesterday, she opened with wanting some re-assurance that I wanted to still be in the marriage. Apparently, I didn't give a very convincing answer duirng our fight the other night.


Good.

First, you REALLY need to understand that marriage is a choice. Divorce really is an option.

You have to learn to observe your wife without pedistalization. If that's a word. You have to see her for what she is, without rose colored glasses. Maybe shes a great person and she screwed up. Bad behavior does not make a person bad. But maybe, she's a screwed up person and this is part of a pattern. YOU gotta figure that out.

You have to realize her need for reassurance is HER problem. It's NOT your job to solve HER problems. Let her be uncomfortable. She should be putting effort into winning you back, she has to EARN your trust. You shouldn't just tell her "everything's gonna be ok..." because it isn't!

You also need to learn to live with the anxiety it causes you to have your wife upset. The constant need for her approval is what drives the NG syndrome. It's what makes you weak and makes your boundries cave.

Grab a book called "codependant no more" by Melanie Beatty. 

I think it's too soon to get into MMSL, btw.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> As for me, I'm not sure how to act at home right now. I am angry and distrustful and don't know what to think of W right now. On the other hand, if I show that I am angry it will probably make things worse.


For guidance on this, I STRONGLY recommend you look at running a 180


----------



## SadandAngry

tdwal said:


> I never understand why BS's don't take the communication avenues away. You pay for her phone, take the iphone away and give her a stupid phone. Take her iPad away. Remove the internet connection either physically or block the OM's access. You are making it easy for her to continue to be tempted. When you go NC, make sure you can enforce the NC. You can't do anything about her going to some other place and communicating but if she goes that far do you really want her anyway?


It is easier and more likely to catch if they have their own devices. If they're going to break, they're going to break, it's better to know for sure if they do.

I didn't know about NC, but I did make my WW feel safe enough to use methods I could see when she started to make contact again. I even got the POSOM to buy in too, so he never tried to go underground either. I was able to then point out the error of her ways and get her to choose NC of her own accord. I paid a price for that, for sure, but so did she eventually.


----------



## Saki

Here's the 180 list, for your reference

Q: What is 180 and how does it work? Submitted by Making It 
A: 180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. I am convinced that if I had implemented them, I would still be married. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. (Making it) 

So here's the list: 

Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore. 
No frequent phone calls. 
Don't point out "good points" in marriage. 
Don't follow her/him around the house. 
Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future. 
Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS. 
Don't ask for reassurances. 
Don't buy or give gifts. 
Don't schedule dates together. 
Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable. 

Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life! 

Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent. 

Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy! 

When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to! 

If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested. 
Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them! 

Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. 

Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing. 

No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value. 

All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation! 

Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF! 

Don't be overly enthusiastic. 

Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all! 

Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more! 

Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything. 

Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil. 

Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly. 

Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write. 

Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy. 

Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care! 

Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior. 

Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!" 

Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message. 

When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. 

This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW."


----------



## iheartlife

island_of_one said:


> Last night, she and bf were texting and I noticed that my wife deleted a few messages. I saw the word "paranoid" in an sms from bf. I had the VAR on yesterday, and just listened to an conversation between W and bf which I believe was entirely about trying to determine if there is spyware on her iphone. I think bf was doing some research for my W. Don't know if this is an indication that she wants to know what she can get away with (ie planning to contact OM), or if W thinks that me monitoring her behavior is a breaking point for her. Hard to say whether her objection to be monitored is on principle or just trying to protect her secrets. I'm sure my wife realizes that I know more than what she has told me since I am 100% sure of her having an EA. Perhaps she is trying to figure out my sources of info. Ironically, at the moment I do not have anything loaded on her devices.


I think she senses that you know more, and she's trying to figure out how you know it. But really, it doesn't matter whether it's that, or whether she's trying to hide things in the future, the point is, she's trying to hide things. And if she's trying to do that now, it means she's fine with hiding things, whenever they might occur.

She doesn't "get it."

I think she liked that MC and somehow they are validating her. I hope MC #2 is better, fingers crossed.


----------



## SadandAngry

tdwal said:


> I disagree, she already suspects he is spying on her phone. He doesn't have any spyware on it so why let her keep it. I would shut off all her communication avenues right away. It would send a message that your not going tolerate it. Taking an iphone and an ipad away eliminates FaceTime and that is his biggest threat.


And she finds some other way, out of the house to do it if she is going to. There are ways to get data off of her devices, that are completely unavailable if she were to go log in on a demo at an electronics store for example. If you force creativity, you just might get it. If you encourage complacency, you might get that too. 

Just to add, my wife initially broke trust immediately, made some steps towards taking it underground, but then stopped and took steps to eliminate contact on her own. The NC might cause some panic, its her drug remember. I did not say anything at that point, just watched like a hawk, and she never tried to go underground again. In these early days, just keep reminding her of the importance of NC. Emphasize the importance of honesty from her. Ignore the hypocrisy for the time being, you didn't cheat!


----------



## walkonmars

she has free-will and so do you. You've explained what you're willing to tolerate in your marriage and what you're not. She's well aware of your concerns. It's up to her to either abide or defy. You don't have a say in what she decides. You do have a say in what your reaction will be. She knows the consequences. No more discussion is needed. It becomes a game preteens play. Don't go there. 

Catch her once more. It's game over.


----------



## SadandAngry

tdwal said:


> I'm sure she is going to walk in Bestbuy and have a lovely conversation with her OM in front of a sales person. GPS and VAR the car much more effective than spyware on the iphone and you really can't put it on the phone without jail breaking it and the ipad there isn't really anything you can do. Keylog the computer, or put a Linux router in between your wireless router and the modem to capture all Internet teaffic (most effective and allows you to block too). If she didn't have the Internet and smart phone she never would have made contact in the first place.


It is just an idea that has crossed my mind, you could walk into staples, grab the display iPad, hit a free WiFi, and do whatever you want without attracting a huge amount of attention. More likely would be an internet cafe, the library, a friend or neighbour, what ever. There's tons of possibilities though. At some point you have to give some trust and observe.

That last sentence if funny, livin' the Luddite life! There are upsides and downsides to everything. Should we abolish cars because some people are killed by them... the argument goes nowhere, shoulda, coulda, woulda, you can't police your partner all the time. Sadly, most of us here could've done to police ours at least a little bit more. C'est la vie!


----------



## SadandAngry

tdwal said:


> Forget it, go into staples and have an intimate conversation in the store and have you seen an Internet cafe lately. Your not in touch with reality. End of thread jack.


Have you never just sat in a public place and really watched people? They'll do all kinds of stuff (that ought to be private)!


----------



## island_of_one

Another unpleasant evening yesterday. I got a little careless and my wife saw me looking at TAM as she unexpectedly came into the room. She doesn’t know which forum she saw, but quickly surmised it was EA related support group and assumes that I am posting. Not sure whether I need to worry about her trying to search for my thread. She was quick to point out the apparent hypocrisy of her being in the wrong for “confiding and hiding” with others while I didn’t share what I was reading. Whatever.

After the kids were in bed, I updated and clarified the NC rules for her. Told that in addition to never contacting OM, she was not allowed to hide anything. No deleting texts or history, no undisclosed purchases or accounts, etc, and I reserve the right to check on her activities. I also told her that BF will be added to the NC list if I find that she is enabling deception. Well, you can imagine that W wasn’t too happy again. She claims to feel that she is being treated like a “dog” and is living in a prison. She’s afraid that anything she says/does could be interpreted wrong or cause her to be in trouble again (ironically, she is really, really sensitized to feeling disapproval from me). She said it is wrong that the fear of surveillance drove her to have a conversation with bf while sitting out in the van in the garage. Funny how she thinks her fear of surveillance is what is wrong as opposed to the fact that she feels the need to have secret conversations. I suspect that the garage chat was prior to the one I recorded about iphone spyware. Don’t know what she is up to, but it can’t be good for the marriage. 

She is definitely contemplating what methods I have in place to monitor her activities. She is convinced of spyware on her devices and our home PC, and apparently is worried about conversations being recorded inside the house. She acts as though spying on her would be a show stopper for her. One hand, feeling like you’re being watched is clearly not a nice feeling. I can sympathize a little. But, what she should be doing is saying “here, look at everything, I have nothing to hide.” Guess I will have to be patient on that one. 

WRT to iphone and ipad, I have enabled restrictions so she can’t use facetime and can’t create mail accounts. She can still use the internet and access email via yahoo webmail. I have had success in the past in accessing emails from backup files, but this only works if she uses webmail. If she uses the mail app and then deletes the account, the backup files don’t work. So, if she uses a new email address on one of her devices I will eventually catch it. Of course, she can always borrow a device, use the library, etc. As mentioned, iphone spyware isn’t an option unless jailbroken, which she could possibly detect.

I’m not really sure how hard to implement spyware at the moment or what I should indicate to W about existing of monitoring tools. One hand, I could tell her to assume that everything is bugged, so she would be deterred from trying to go underground. But, she could go elsewhere where I have no visibility. On the other hand, I could (honestly) tell her that there is nothing installed and I am just going to be checking her emails, SMS, and web history. This provides a moderate deterrent for her and will make her feel a little less like big brother is watching. If she decides to go underground, she is more likely to do so at home where I’ll have a chance to catch it.


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> I think she senses that you know more, and she's trying to figure out how you know it. But really, it doesn't matter whether it's that, or whether she's trying to hide things in the future, the point is, she's trying to hide things. And if she's trying to do that now, it means she's fine with hiding things, whenever they might occur.
> 
> She doesn't "get it."
> 
> I think she liked that MC and somehow they are validating her. I hope MC #2 is better, fingers crossed.


W has not expressed much interest in going to see MC. Right now, I think is clinging to two things that MC mentioned early on. MC indicated (for affairs in general) that disclosure about the affair by the WS not required. MC has also indicated snooping is discouraged. Right now, I think W is hoping that MC will say that she won't have to tell about the affair and that I should not be spying on W. W's biggest argument now is about how much oversight I need to have on her activities. I'm thinking it is not good if W goes by herself at this point. 

I will see what the MC#2 says about her approach/experience with affair busting.


----------



## Acabado

island_of_one said:


> I will see what the MC#2 says about her approach/experience with affair busting.


This, challenge MC about the subject. Sources, experience, success... "how to blame", EAs, boundaires, mutual transparence...


----------



## DavidWYoung

Have you asked her"Why are we married to each other?" What is the benefit of being married to you? Just asking.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> At this point for her it's about her image in her mind. She is trying to rationalize and minimize this, not only to you, but to herself as well.
> 
> Personally, my wife turned from lying, coniving (sp?), crap spewing dragon to very nice, respectible, attentive wifey relatively quickly - a couple of weeks. You'll probably know you are there when the hysterical bonding begins. In the meantime, really take to heart the idea of working on yourself and running the 180 - for YOU not for your marriage!
> 
> Its pretty amazing to watch the transformation take place, and also to look back and remember the way they transfered out of your relationship in the first place. This, having typed it, is really the proof of the truth of the "red pill". I can say I learned a lot about women (ie they aren't special), and about reality (ie neither are you!!!), having gone through my experience.
> 
> 
> 
> I personally do not fully agree with this thought. I do agree with the fact that you need to look at your marriage and identify where you are falling short of meeting your spouses needs, and step your game up there. I O O you'll find you are at a place, personally, where you are capable of receiving critical feedback AND making genuine change. Take advantage of that and make some progress as a husband.
> 
> On the other hand, I _firmly_ refuse to play the OM's game. I _want_ to maximize my potential as a person but I refuse to do it someone else's way. I'm not going to text and call my wife the way he did, just because he was her affair partner. I WILL NOT compete with him.


Thanks for the info on the 180. I have some contemplation to do in that area. I am not yet sure where to draw the line between a Plan A and a 180. I know I need to act in a way to express to W that: 

- I am going to pursue working on myself and my life
- I have a choice and will move forward with or without her

I also think that there is benefit to showing her hope for the marriage and showing that I can improve as a husband. I'm not sure how to simultaneously show her how good things could be and that I could choose not to go forward with her. Have to think on this one some more. Maybe I don't have to show her anything positive until she seems to get the message that I might not choose to stay with her unless she changes her behavior. Right now, she hasn't shown me enough for me to want to make progress as a husband. 

Ironically, when all of this started and I wasn't as sure it was an EA, I used the discovery as a wakeup call and really stepped up as a husband. For a couple of months, I was really all in and doing everything I could to meet her needs. She loved it! Of course, she wasn't backing away from OM and now she had two attentive males. Anyway, it shouldn't be too hard for her to remember what I capable of. 

As for books, first one up is NMMNG. Speaking of nice, my wife (in her old form) is actually even much nicer than me! Too much so in fact. She's definitely in category of good person wrapped up in a bad situation. Just have to see how long it takes the good person in her to overcome the crap spewing dragon.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> what she should be doing is saying “here, look at everything, I have nothing to hide.”


That goes for you too.

You spend an awful lot of time worrying about her reaction to things.

Your life would be greatly simplified if you just did what YOU felt was right in YOUR heart and just let the chips fall where they may....

Get your nose in NMMNG


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> That goes for you too.
> 
> You spend an awful lot of time worrying about her reaction to things.
> 
> Your life would be greatly simplified if you just did what YOU felt was right in YOUR heart and just let the chips fall where they may....
> 
> Get your nose in NMMNG


Point taken! It's not just with my wife either. I spend a lot of time contemplating everybody's reaction to everything I do. Not a happy way to live.  Don't know why I became this way (or have always been this way), but I wish I would have been able to change it a long time ago. Better late than never!!


----------



## island_of_one

DavidWYoung said:


> Have you asked her"Why are we married to each other?" What is the benefit of being married to you? Just asking.


Those are fair questions, and I have been considering them a lot from my own perspective. I have not asked W directly. Right now, I bet she would struggle to come up with a good answer. I certainly am having a hard time. 

At the moment, I am working on my new 180 attitude, and I'm not planning to start any new discussions. Just do my thing and keep tabs to see if NC is being maintained. If she wants to talk, fine. Otherwise, I'll just go about my business. When the right opportunity is there, I'll see if she can offer any good arguments on her behalf.


----------



## island_of_one

costa200 said:


> island_of_one, if we met in person i'm pretty sure i would like to be your friend. You sound like an upstanding guy, always caring for what your wife is feeling and how she will see things and always not wanting to hurt her. This after she had demonstrably been the complete opposite.
> 
> Your wife is lucky to have a guy like you. Hell knows i would have stomped this situation like a enraged bull and it would probably involve packed bags if my requests were not complied with sufficient haste and enthusiasm right at DDay. I hope she grows to appreciate you more. What you do for your family and your willingness to work for your marriage.
> 
> On a side note, if one was to read these forums only, one would think that when you're called "controlling" you must be doing something right...


Thank you for the kind words. There are some advantages to being a nice/sensitive guy type. Of course, mostly it is the people around us that benefit from it! I am in leadership positions at work and am effective by considering others' needs and building consensus. Unfortunately, consensus building has no place in busting an EA. Just took me a long time (and some eye opening advice!) to figure that one out. 

I have also figured out (or re-discovered) that my wife is lucky to have me. I had lost sight of that over the years. Don't know if she will get that again, but that is her problem now.


----------



## TDSC60

She was deep in and EA and fought and clawed to stay there.

Her and her BFF ARE conspiring about how to hide things from you, thus the suspicion and talk about possible monitoring techniques. If she does not plan on having secret conversations or contact, why should she care what monitoring you have in place? BFF is NOT a friend of the marriage and it is looking like neither is your wife.

You really have to decide what you want going forward. Id she worth all the heart ache?


----------



## island_of_one

TDSC60 said:


> She was deep in and EA and fought and clawed to stay there.
> 
> Her and her BFF ARE conspiring about how to hide things from you, thus the suspicion and talk about possible monitoring techniques. If she does not plan on having secret conversations or contact, why should she care what monitoring you have in place? BFF is NOT a friend of the marriage and it is looking like neither is your wife.
> 
> You really have to decide what you want going forward. Id she worth all the heart ache?


I think the person that my wife is capable of being is worth the heartache of trying to recover. We had a lot of good years together, and we have two awesome kids. So there are compelling reasons to fight for the marriage. I think we have a good shot at rebuilding if we are both committed to the marriage. 

But, clearly, my wife is not really in the marriage at the moment. I have not yet found any signs of attempted contact with OM, but her behavior with bff is a very bad sign. I haven’t figured out what they are up to yet, but they are up to something. Perhaps, my wife has been working on trying getting her last goodbye in. 

The last couple days haven’t had any drama, but there haven’t been any positive changes in her behavior. She has been tired and mopey. Her and bf talk every day. Yesterday, wife went solo to appt. with MC. She didn’t offer any details last night, talked on the phone with bf and went to bed. So, she is still doing all of her confiding elsewhere even without her regular dose of OM. Not too surprising as it is too early for the fog to have lifted, but it is still a clear indication that she is not any closer to coming back. 

Being in 180 mode, I am going to wait for her to bring up any conversations, and not show any interest until then. My wife has noticed my change in behavior but hasn’t said anything yet. I’m doing my best to be pleasant, cheerful, but otherwise indifferent to her. No more “I love you’s” or other re-assurances that she seeks. For too long, I played along with the “let’s pretend everything is all right” game.


----------



## TDSC60

island_of_one said:


> I think the person that my wife is capable of being is worth the heartache of trying to recover. We had a lot of good years together, and we have two awesome kids. So there are compelling reasons to fight for the marriage. I think we have a good shot at rebuilding if we are both committed to the marriage.
> 
> But, clearly, my wife is not really in the marriage at the moment. I have not yet found any signs of attempted contact with OM, but her behavior with bff is a very bad sign. I haven’t figured out what they are up to yet, but they are up to something. Perhaps, my wife has been working on trying getting her last goodbye in.
> 
> The last couple days haven’t had any drama, but there haven’t been any positive changes in her behavior. She has been tired and mopey. Her and bf talk every day. Yesterday, wife went solo to appt. with MC. She didn’t offer any details last night, talked on the phone with bf and went to bed. So, she is still doing all of her confiding elsewhere even without her regular dose of OM. Not too surprising as it is too early for the fog to have lifted, but it is still a clear indication that she is not any closer to coming back.
> 
> Being in 180 mode, I am going to wait for her to bring up any conversations, and not show any interest until then. My wife has noticed my change in behavior but hasn’t said anything yet. I’m doing my best to be pleasant, cheerful, but otherwise indifferent to her. No more “I love you’s” or other re-assurances that she seeks. For too long, I played along with the “let’s pretend everything is all right” game.


Your wife and BFF are definitely up to something. They a plotting and planning - what? The last goodbye to OM would be best case scenario. Secret ways that BFF could assist your wife and OM to continue contact is worst. Neither is good for you and your marriage.

You cannot be married to a woman and have kids with her without developing a strong emotional attachment. No matter what kind of crap she pulls, that attachment is still there and it is real and it is strong. You have to realize a couple of thing.

While your history together has a huge hold on you, it means much less to her since she is willing to jeopardize your marriage for OM.

You cannot go back. Things can never be as they were "pre-affair" and why would you want that anyway? 

You are conflicted in wanting your wife to rejoin the marriage but deep down you know that you do not want "this wife" the one who lies, betrays you, conspires with BFF. The wife you want back may not exist any longer, another woman has taken her place. 

Maybe it is the affair FOG, maybe not, but if she finds a way to stay in contact with him, you are doomed.

Continue 180 and continue monitoring - this is not over yet.


----------



## iheartlife

island_of_one said:


> The last couple days haven’t had any drama, but there haven’t been any positive changes in her behavior. She has been tired and mopey. Her and bf talk every day. Yesterday, wife went solo to appt. with MC. She didn’t offer any details last night, talked on the phone with bf and went to bed. So, she is still doing all of her confiding elsewhere even without her regular dose of OM. Not too surprising as it is too early for the fog to have lifted, but it is still a clear indication that she is not any closer to coming back.


You'll recall that several pages back, this was my precise fear. That she is accustomed to confiding in others, and she isn't so very particular about who those others might be, as long as it isn't you. This gets to the heart of why emotional affairs are such betrayals--they basically set up someone else, ANYONE ELSE, as the primary confidant. Even if unintentional, this has the effect of choking off communication with one's spouse, and if this goes on for a long enough time, it is precisely what causes two people to "grow apart."

The problem is, with disloyal spouses, we often see a "chicken and egg" situation, where the disloyal spouse claims (and re-writes marital history to support this) that the "growing apart" happened FIRST, and the wall was not caused by confiding elsewhere. Obviously, that can happen, but it is almost always the other way around.

This wall between you will have to be broken down, brick by brick. Only a very skilled counselor can do it, and unfortunately it requires effort by both of you, not just you. You see your dilemma now--her BF is almost surely supporting her and justifying what she's been doing with OM. In a perfect world, toxic friend would have to go too. Except that your wife will really blow a fuse if you tell her that.

I don't know how, but your wife has to understand what has occurred. That when she stopped confiding in you, a wall went up. Meantime, she has opened windows to OM and to BF. She is almost surely discussing the marriage with them--which is, in and of itself, a form of betrayal. It's a betrayal because YOU CANNOT MEET HER HALFWAY IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HER ISSUES ARE WITH THE MARRIAGE OR INSIDE OF HER.

I've been posting links to this lately, because this seems to be the core issue--lack of honesty. These essays are long--but I would take them to your counselor and see if you can make any headway from this angle with your wife. She must change her entire thinking about what it means to be married. It's a tall order, but I don't see another way.

The Policy of Radical Honesty

Emotional Honesty

Historical Honesty

Current Honesty


----------



## SadandAngry

I'm thinking this maybe a case where the 180 isn't the most helpful thing for you to do. She already confides elsewhere, why would she start turning to you now, if you are indifferent? Perhaps you need to pry her thoughts out of her. Make it okay for her to share them with you. This is really hard at this point though, because a lot of her thoughts are not going to be pleasant to hear. You also cannot be a doormat. It's a fine line to try to walk. 

What about reading Not Just Friends together, read a chapter every day or 2, and discuss it, trying not to be judgemental so she actually thinks about the message of the book?


----------



## iheartlife

SadandAngry said:


> What about reading Not Just Friends together, read a chapter every day or 2, and discuss it, trying not to be judgemental so she actually thinks about the message of the book?


This book addresses the building of walls (between the disloyal and their spouse) and the opening of windows in inappropriate ways to people outside of your marriage.


----------



## Saki

I don't believe his wife will be receptive to the message in Not Just Friends at this point.

There is a lot of progress to be made in this relationship if it is to succeed. Right now, the atmosphere of the relationship will, at best, be a major obstical to this progress. More than likely, the current atmosphere of the relationship will completely impede any progress that can be made.

There is no plausible scenerio in which his wife turns to I O O as her primary confidant later this afternoon. He is the enemy to her. He made her give up her primary love relationship. 

The only way to turn the atmosphere of the relationship into a place where this progress and positive change can take place is through the passage of time.

My message is this: Wait. 

Focus on yourself. Enjoy life. Turn yourself into an attractive person that is fun to be around. Be the person you want to be. Look real hard at what the 180 accomplishes. I definately think it is the way to go here.

When the time comes and your wife has slipped out of the fog, and you've proven trustworthy of being the primary confidant for her, THAN start pushing a lot of the progress you want.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> I don't believe his wife will be receptive to the message in Not Just Friends at this point.
> 
> There is a lot of progress to be made in this relationship if it is to succeed. Right now, the atmosphere of the relationship will, at best, be a major obstical to this progress. More than likely, the current atmosphere of the relationship will completely impede any progress that can be made.
> 
> There is no plausible scenerio in which his wife turns to I O O as her primary confidant later this afternoon. He is the enemy to her. He made her give up her primary love relationship.
> 
> The only way to turn the atmosphere of the relationship into a place where this progress and positive change can take place is through the passage of time.
> 
> My message is this: Wait.
> 
> Focus on yourself. Enjoy life. Turn yourself into an attractive person that is fun to be around. Be the person you want to be. Look real hard at what the 180 accomplishes. I definately think it is the way to go here.
> 
> When the time comes and your wife has slipped out of the fog, and you've proven trustworthy of being the primary confidant for her, THAN start pushing a lot of the progress you want.


As you suggested, I do not believe that my wife is at all receptive to reading EA topics now (despite the fact that she desperately needs to!). She completely flipped out last week when I gave her some suggested reading material. When she is ready, she’ll pick up her copy of NJF. I read it months ago. 

I also agree that there is nothing that can be done for my wife to immediately start confiding in me. She is going to have to acknowledge the fact that she had affair before she’s going to have any interest in sharing things with me. She has to get to the point where her betrayal is a bigger deal than her need for “privacy.” That is not the case right now. 

At a certain point, my wife will have to make a definitive choice about whether to open up about what has happened and try to make me/us her top priority, or to continue to keep up the wall. Until now, I have enabled her to indefinitely delay that choice. Now that I’ve been awakened to how deep she was into the EA, the clock is ticking as far as I am concerned. I can wait a while, but not for months. I think the best thing I can do to speed that choice is to make sure that she knows status quo is not OK (really, really not OK!!). When I have acted normal in between rounds of fighting/disagreement, she convinces herself that things are OK. No more. She also needs to understand that I won’t automatically be there for her. I have a choice to make and it may not include her. I think the more real that appears to her, the faster she will wake up.


----------



## warlock07

Could it be that she is talking to the OM from her friend's place ?


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> You'll recall that several pages back, this was my precise fear. That she is accustomed to confiding in others, and she isn't so very particular about who those others might be, as long as it isn't you. This gets to the heart of why emotional affairs are such betrayals--they basically set up someone else, ANYONE ELSE, as the primary confidant. Even if unintentional, this has the effect of choking off communication with one's spouse, and if this goes on for a long enough time, it is precisely what causes two people to "grow apart."
> 
> The problem is, with disloyal spouses, we often see a "chicken and egg" situation, where the disloyal spouse claims (and re-writes marital history to support this) that the "growing apart" happened FIRST, and the wall was not caused by confiding elsewhere. Obviously, that can happen, but it is almost always the other way around.
> 
> This wall between you will have to be broken down, brick by brick. Only a very skilled counselor can do it, and unfortunately it requires effort by both of you, not just you. You see your dilemma now--her BF is almost surely supporting her and justifying what she's been doing with OM. In a perfect world, toxic friend would have to go too. Except that your wife will really blow a fuse if you tell her that.
> 
> I don't know how, but your wife has to understand what has occurred. That when she stopped confiding in you, a wall went up. Meantime, she has opened windows to OM and to BF. She is almost surely discussing the marriage with them--which is, in and of itself, a form of betrayal. It's a betrayal because YOU CANNOT MEET HER HALFWAY IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HER ISSUES ARE WITH THE MARRIAGE OR INSIDE OF HER.
> 
> I've been posting links to this lately, because this seems to be the core issue--lack of honesty. These essays are long--but I would take them to your counselor and see if you can make any headway from this angle with your wife. She must change her entire thinking about what it means to be married. It's a tall order, but I don't see another way.
> 
> The Policy of Radical Honesty
> 
> Emotional Honesty
> 
> Historical Honesty
> 
> Current Honesty


I remembered your comment- and you were absolutely correct on the confiding elsewhere prediction. In one respect, my wife is in a tough spot. With things being tense between us, the need for support for others increases. But, if she always runs to someone else for support, she won’t make it back to me. It is somewhat of a leap of faith decision for her to make. 

In our case, the growing apart between us did occur prior to the EA. That made recognition of the EA more uncertain early on. We grew apart primarily due to lack of time together between work hours, kids, and no family support locally. On top of that, my stress level has been high for years, and I was not really available for conversation companionship a lot of nights. I just kept things to myself, which is damaging in itself, but I never looked elsewhere for a connection. I did not know it at the time, but my wife must have increasingly been looking to bf to fill some of the confidant role that I had sole rights to for many years. We were both quietly putting up bricks without the other realizing it. Then the big bricks started getting added to the wall when OM arrived. 

The discovery of the EA was a wakeup call to what had been missing in the marriage and lead to a lot of insight (on my part anyway) on what we could do about it. It takes two to knock down the walls, and only one of us has been interested in that so far. The walls and windows analogy is a really clear way to explain how things should be a marriage. But she won’t hear it right now.

Honesty really is the biggest part of this. She may have gone down the slippery slope without fully realizing it early on, but she sure as heck has a choice on whether to lie or tell the truth. That she has chose dishonesty (and won’t even admit that!) is the most painful part of this.


----------



## island_of_one

warlock07 said:


> Could it be that she is talking to the OM from her friend's place ?


Nope. We're in FL and her best friend is in NM.


----------



## iheartlife

island_of_one said:


> I remembered your comment- and you were absolutely correct on the confiding elsewhere prediction. In one respect, my wife is in a tough spot. With things being tense between us, the need for support for others increases. But, if she always runs to someone else for support, she won’t make it back to me. It is somewhat of a leap of faith decision for her to make.
> 
> In our case, the growing apart between us did occur prior to the EA. That made recognition of the EA more uncertain early on. We grew apart primarily due to lack of time together between work hours, kids, and no family support locally. On top of that, my stress level has been high for years, and I was not really available for conversation companionship a lot of nights. I just kept things to myself, which is damaging in itself, but I never looked elsewhere for a connection. I did not know it at the time, but my wife must have increasingly been looking to bf to fill some of the confidant role that I had sole rights to for many years. We were both quietly putting up bricks without the other realizing it. Then the big bricks started getting added to the wall when OM arrived.
> 
> The discovery of the EA was a wakeup call to what had been missing in the marriage and lead to a lot of insight (on my part anyway) on what we could do about it. It takes two to knock down the walls, and only one of us has been interested in that so far. The walls and windows analogy is a really clear way to explain how things should be a marriage. But she won’t hear it right now.
> 
> Honesty really is the biggest part of this. She may have gone down the slippery slope without fully realizing it early on, but she sure as heck has a choice on whether to lie or tell the truth. That she has chose dishonesty (and won’t even admit that!) is the most painful part of this.


Just remember--and this is true of so many people on this forum.

It's not uncommon for affairs to start because a marriage isn't healthy and what it's supposed to be.

NEVER FORGET that disloyalty and betrayal is a CHOICE. Again, I have some similarities to you--our marriage wasn't in a good place when the affair started. But guess what? It wasn't good for me either. But like you, I didn't go running around to find a replacement "husband."

The difference is very important. Because it is tempting to blame yourself for what she chose to do. But NEVER FORGET that she had choices.

Have you read His Needs / Her Needs and 5 Love Languages? The latter is short and you may be able to persuade your wife to at least read that. If not, the website has a short fun quiz you can probably get her to take. HN/HN also has a long questionnaire on the marriagebuilders.com website, but that will be harder to persuade her to do.

If anyone has suggested these already, the reason they aren't being discussed much is the uncertainty surround her contact with the OM. As long as they are in contact, she will not withdrawn from her "addiction" to him enough to be willing to turn toward you. She doesn't need you as an option, as long as he's in the picture.


----------



## SadandAngry

island_of_one said:


> I remembered your comment- and you were absolutely correct on the confiding elsewhere prediction. In one respect, my wife is in a tough spot. With things being tense between us, the need for support for others increases. But, if she always runs to someone else for support, she won’t make it back to me. It is somewhat of a leap of faith decision for her to make.
> 
> In our case, the growing apart between us did occur prior to the EA. That made recognition of the EA more uncertain early on. We grew apart primarily due to lack of time together between work hours, kids, and no family support locally. On top of that, my stress level has been high for years, and I was not really available for conversation companionship a lot of nights. I just kept things to myself, which is damaging in itself, but I never looked elsewhere for a connection. I did not know it at the time, but my wife must have increasingly been looking to bf to fill some of the confidant role that I had sole rights to for many years. We were both quietly putting up bricks without the other realizing it. Then the big bricks started getting added to the wall when OM arrived.
> 
> The discovery of the EA was a wakeup call to what had been missing in the marriage and lead to a lot of insight (on my part anyway) on what we could do about it. It takes two to knock down the walls, and only one of us has been interested in that so far. The walls and windows analogy is a really clear way to explain how things should be a marriage. But she won’t hear it right now.
> 
> Honesty really is the biggest part of this. She may have gone down the slippery slope without fully realizing it early on, but she sure as heck has a choice on whether to lie or tell the truth. That she has chose dishonesty (and won’t even admit that!) is the most painful part of this.


This is good, but you are wrong to think that it absolutely needs the active participation of both people to BEGIN tearing down the walls between you. 

Did you have a talk and share your vision of life and your marriage as you'd like to see it? Have you asked for her views on the same? This can be a beacon of hope for the both of you.

NC is the means to slam the windows shut on the OM, but as you acknowledged, you both had a hand on constructing the wall between you. It would seem from what you wrote, that you inadvertently did quite a bit of that. That's typical, men tend to do that. This is also where you need to give her hope. By no means go back to the status quo as it had been, you need to proactively obliterate a good chunk of the wall on your side. 

Talk to her, share your thoughts and feelings, solicit hers and pay attention. If she stonewalls, pry, but be ready to hear stuff you don't want to hear. You might pour out quite a bit of hurt on each other, stuff from yesterday all the way back to the beginning of your relationship. You can own your mistakes, you can apologize for them, but yes, definitely remember the ea is all your wife's to own, and at some point she probably will. Don't accept any blame for the es, but don't pile it on her yet either, she is smart, she ought to figure it out. 

As you talk, the goodwill should increase between you. You can make suggestions ad to next steps as you go, like shared reading (great you read njf, but she is the one that needs it, right)? 

The crux of the issue is this: she is filling a large need (actually, has been hopefully) talking and investing in the OM. You are forcing her to choose to stop that. If you do nothing she will turn to another outlet (like bf), solving not much, and she will resent you. You need to make yourself available, you need to make it safe. 

You are the sane one, that's why you get to take the absolutely necessary steps to rescue your marriage first (even though that isn't really fair). It is your strength that is necessary to overcome her weakness now. You aren't the addict, she is. 

Think about it, she hasn't done anything to solve this of her own accord yet, why would she start at this particular point? She won't. She won't do that until the situation is much worse, if ever. By then it could be too late, as you say. 

Your marriage is in a delicate place now. It can be saved, but it won't be easy. I know first hand.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> When I have acted normal in between rounds of fighting/disagreement, she convinces herself that things are OK. No more. She also needs to understand that I won’t automatically be there for her. I have a choice to make and it may not include her. I think the more real that appears to her, the faster she will wake up.


THAT

IS 

WHY

YOU

MUST

DO

THE 

180

You protect yourself, you empower yourself, AND YOU SEND A POWERFUL MESSAGE, THRU ACTIONS NOT WORDS, THAT SHE IS OPTIONAL IN YOUR LIFE!!!!

I'll again recommend NMMNG. Dr Glover is very big on the notion of the man's role as the leader in the relationship.

You have been acting as the leader, pulling her out of an addiciton that is destructive to your marriage. Now you need to continue being the leader in moving forward with this mess...



SadandAngry said:


> Your marriage is in a delicate place now. It can be saved, but it won't be easy.


And the only person capable of saving it is I O O!!


----------



## iheartlife

Saki is right.

Now I will tell you:
the 180 is usually given as emotional detachment method. But, in a number of threads, BSs have used it in a modified way. My version of a "modified" 180 is:

take the focus off of her, and turn to improving yourself. You cannot control her, but you can control you. By turning yourself into the best "you" that you know how to be, you will naturally boost your self-confidence and attractiveness.

Read NNMNG again, and implement it. You have noticed that when you don't back down, you gain respect. From respect, comes love. Whether fair or not, many women find it hard to romantically love a man they don't respect.

Next, re-read MMSL. This is not about a personality makeover--you just want to be a more true version of yourself. I think you'll find that there are things in MMSL that you used to do, or that call you, but you thought they were things that "women didn't like." Again, don't twist yourself into a pretzel being something you're not. But take those parts of MMSL that speak to you and that you feel fit into your personality and start to execute them.

Get into physical shape. Don't know where you are in terms of working out. Exercise does wonders for depression, stress, and anxiety. And men (damn them) can get into decent shape pretty fast if they put their minds to it.

Eat healthy, get enough sleep.

Be the best at your paying job that you know how.

Any hobbies that you used to love, but have neglected since you were married? Time to pick up one or two again.

I do disagree with Saki (I think) and believe it cannot hurt at this stage to also read His Needs / Her Needs and 5 Love Languages, and to get her to take the quizzes that are on those websites. Just set it up as "I want to be responsive to you." But YOU fill out the quizzes too, and sit down and discuss them together in a situation where she can't up and walk away. In this way, YOU FULLY INFORM HER what YOUR needs are and she can't sluff that off and say, "you never told me," "I didn't know." AND she can't say, "you didn't listen," "you weren't responsive," because you did and were.

*HOWEVER*, Saki is cautioning you on these books right now, and I am too: doormats want to rush in and do the emotional "fixing" part--it is more fun than practicing their assertion skills.

We see that your weakness lies in avoiding confrontation. This has probably played a key role in how your wife stopped confiding in you. Maybe you are the male who wants to help your wife, and listening to her whine caused stress because you couldn't solve her problems--and so you would turn away. I'm here to tell you that the vast majority of the time, she doesn't want you to solve anything. She just wants to vent. Again, MMSL and NNMNG will guide you in how to be a better confidant to her, because it will shore up those parts of your interaction with her that are weak.


----------



## Saki

iheartlife said:


> don't twist yourself into a pretzel being something you're not.


This is the key.

This is what NMMNG is about at it's core. It's about being comfortable with the person you are and harnessing all the power that person possesses.

It's about being ok with being you, _and_ knowing how to maximize you.

I caution against I O O spending a lot of time trying to fix his marriage today, like later this morning or after lunch. Nobody's at the place in his marriage where that is going to be effective. He's not there, and his wife is a world away from there.

He's done what he can to start his wife in the right direction. Now he needs to get himself into shape.

Right now, he needs to move himself to a place where he is improving himself, his contribution to the marriage, identifying his needs, etc - but here's the kicker

It HAS to be for him. It can't be to win his wife's approval, it can't be for his kids, it can't be for the marriage. That will not work.

I do not believe, despite what he may write, that he's truly at a place where he clearly sees his goals and his needs. I beleive he is still very much afraid of his wife's disapproval and there is no way to be sucessful in this endeavor if that is the case.

He can't effectively listen, he can't genuinely care, he can't express true love, until he makes significant personal strides.

He needs his strength to be able to stand up for his needs and drag this marriage out of the mud.

I'm not saying he shouldn't read HN/HN, 5 LL, etc. I'm just saying that should be further down the road.


----------



## iheartlife

Saki said:


> but here's the kicker
> 
> It HAS to be for him. It can't be to win his wife's approval, it can't be for his kids, it can't be for the marriage. That will not work.


Truer words never spoken!

island--the point of the 180 "light" is that you should be doing all these things anyhow. Everyone should. Mostly because you like yourself better when you're doing what's good for you! Improving yourself as a person pays dividends to you and everyone around you. But trying to be who you THINK she wants you to be is a recipe for disaster. All that will accomplish is to undermine your self-esteem, and make you out as a wet noodle to her. 



> I'm not saying he shouldn't read HN/HN, 5 LL, etc. I'm just saying that should be further down the road.


My thought here is to throw her a bone. Some goofball in Germany with too much time on his hands stole your marriage. You are confidently, firmly, going to take it back. 

They best way to do that is to become more assertive and to gain self-confidence. Assertiveness you get through reading NNMNG, MMSL and practice. Self-confidence you get by accomplishing small self-improvement tasks that build on one another.

But while you do that, you throw her the bone of what your marrige COULD be if she would just allow it. These books, together with the Policy of Radical Honesty, are bones to distract her while you work on yourself via the 180 'light.' They will give her that warm cozy feeling that you care about the marriage and her needs. You do, you just aren't going to get sucked down that path too far when you need to work on your assertiveness and self-respect *FIRST AND FOREMOST*. (Working on this first has the side-effect of making you attractive--but it also will stand you in good stead whether she's around, or not.)

And no, I didn't compare your wife to a dog just now, she's um, erm, a tigress.


----------



## island_of_one

I have thoroughly read and dissected HN,HN and Five Love Languages. My wife has read 5LL and some of HN/HN. We have actually had these books for close to a year. I have spent a lot of time contemplating emotional needs- especially my wife’s needs. We actually sat down a couple months ago to go through each other’s lists. I came prepared to the meeting. I had listed my needs out using both HN/HN categories and 5-LL, I listed what I viewed her needs in both sets of categories, and I evaluated, from my perspective, what made our relationship work (from my perspective) in the early days. I had thought through how I would better be able to meet her needs and pointed out some challenges to overcome (finding time, lack of common interests). For me, it was an accumulation of ideas and thoughts that I had been compiling over the last year on how we can rebuild to a better place. She came with a short list of scribbled, random thoughts on each category in 5LL. She also came to the meeting with the notion that we needed to focus on us and to ignore the OM issue. I was really disheartened afterwards as I felt she hadn’t put much thought or effort into it. At that time, I had already recognized that I had been doing us a disservice by keeping my complaints/negative feelings to myself, so I let her know how I felt about it. Which she didn’t care much for. I’m sure she was too busy contemplating OM to be thinking that much about how to fix us. 

What I did not include in the meeting was specifics on how she could meet my needs. From HN/HN, my top two are attractive spouse and affection. I feel a bit shallow having physical attraction as a top need, but that is what I feel is the case. In considering our early days, she was the more attractive one and had an irrepressibly cheerful demeanor. These days, I’ve got the upper hand on appearance (aged well, in good shape, ran a marathon last year) while she is 60lbs above a good weight. The cheerful demeanor is reserved for others and doesn’t come out too often at home between dealing with the kids or bringing up all of the house projects that I am delinquent on. While I have identified my needs for her, it is not an easy path for her to fix. Which is probably why I have been dissatisfied for a long time. Unfortunately, I kept that to myself instead of approaching her for fear of hurting her feelings (and her already low self-esteem). 

Right now, my wife’s biggest issues are recovering from the shock of losing OM (assuming she is done there) and control issues with me. She is resentful of the unilateral nature of decisions I have made and feels that I’m more like a parole officer than a husband. Her current issue list of grievances just tells me that she really doesn’t get it yet. She is very far from wanting to deal with what my needs are, or what she has done.


----------



## island_of_one

As I have mentioned, discovery of the EA was a wakeup call about what was wrong in the marriage and it lead to a lot of exploration on my part of how to fix things. The last couple weeks have been a wakeup call as to what is wrong with ME, and some insight in how to fix MYSELF. That I need to worry more about my needs and happiness and not sacrifice just to meet others’ needs. That is my focus in the short term. I have not yet read NMMNG or MMSL. I ordered them last week and they are due any day. My top priority at home over the next few days will be to devour NMMNG. I think adaption of these sort of principles will have a profound impact for me. The stress/anxiety that results from being so concerned with what others think and their reaction to my behavior is probably the biggest single factor damaging my life. I have a lot of work to do, but I at least see the light and am moving toward it. WRT my wife, I do still find myself considering her reactions, but I am practicing allowing myself to just feel comfortable with making my own choice. It is a work in progress…

For my 180, there is part that is all about improving me for my sake regardless of what happens with the marriage. There is also a detachment aspect. For me, I can’t move forward while my wife continues to rugsweep and deny that there was an affair. She has to wake up to reality before I am willing to work on recovery. She needs to understand how big of a deal this is for me, that she will lose me if she doesn’t change, and that the possibility of divorce is real. I do not think she will ever get those messages while I am acting like things are OK. I guess there is the chance that I will just be pushing her further away while doing the 180, but I think the risk is worth it as I don’t have a lot more lose at this point.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> She came with a short list of scribbled, random thoughts on each category in 5LL. She also came to the meeting with the notion that we needed to focus on us and to ignore the OM issue.


That would have been a frustrating exercise. 

As they say, "The grass is greener where you water it!!"

On the other hand, that is exactly why you need to focus on you. You put a bunch of effort into this, you did your best. But the exercise was a letdown...because you focused on her. 

When You start NMMNG, you'll learn about covert contracts. Consider this scenerio at that time.



island_of_one said:


> From HN/HN, my top two are attractive spouse and affection. I feel a bit shallow having physical attraction as a top need, but that is what I feel is the case.


Don't feel bad about that. The purpose of a relationship between a man and a woman is sex. Lots of people try to deny that, but I strongly believe it. 

And lets be real, you are attracted to what looks good to you.

Embrace the fact that you feel that way...


----------



## iheartlife

Well, Saki, you called it.

So what you've tried to do for the last year is nice her out of her relationship. As you've seen, it does not work.

Just to clarify--you have no idea what her top 2 love languages are, am I correct? Just humor me and have her take the quiz from the website, just so you have that tiny piece of information.

As far as her weight--it is probably no coincidence that she's been drawn into a long-distance EA at the same time that she's probably very unhappy with her appearance. There's a lot that goes along with that--clothes not fitting right, clothes selections becoming limited, not wanting to buy new clothes because you're going to (eventually) lose weight, etc. (And some women give up entirely and don't bother with hair and makeup any more either, on the theory of 'why bother, it's hopeless.')

Have you found ways to exercise with her? Go for bike rides or long walks? Getting her out for a long walk in the evening would do double duty: you'd get her talking, and you'd get her feeling healthier about herself. And getting her off the computer / phone.

But I agree with Saki--it's useless to minimize the importance of physical appearance, because male sexuality is very visual. It's obviously a lot more than that, or else you wouldn't be fighting for your marriage. So stop feeling bad about that, and instead brainstorm how you can spend active time together (dancing, hiking, swimming, golfing...). Although why do I get a sneaking suspicion you've already tried this, too?

Anyhow--I hope your new books inspire you to shake things up. You tried the usual route that most people do, so it's time for a radical departure from "normal."


----------



## Saki

iheartlife said:


> So what you've tried to do for the last year is nice her out of her relationship. As you've seen, it does not work.





iheartlife said:


> Anyhow--I hope your new books inspire you to shake things up. You tried the usual route that most people do, so it's time for a radical departure from "normal."


Keep these two observations in mind as you read NMMNG


----------



## island_of_one

Well, we had a meeting with MC#1 today. What a disaster! My wife aired her list of grievances related to the controls, restrictions and oversight in place right now: feels like she is being treated like less than a person, I’m her parole office not a husband, can’t live with the lack of dignity and respesct, can’t live with me treating/believing her to be a “deceitful liar”, fear of having recording devices in the house, the string of ultimatums (do this or else she’s gone) …and a few other things that I can’t think of at the moment. She says she did what I wanted (NC) and now we should just be moving forward. She acknowledges that this is her fault, that she did things wrong, never meant to hurt me, sorry for hurting me, etc. but offered no details on what exactly she did wrong. She also made a point to state that she didn’t hide contact as I knew they were emailing and I knew they had Facetime contact (still basically denying it was an affair). She was part angry, part emotional about the hurt she has caused, and was crying and upset about the lack of trust and respect I have for her right now. That if I think so little of her that she could be dishonest, then we’ve already lost everything. Whether a ploy or not, she dutifully played the part of “I can’t live under these circumstances.” BTW, the only restrictions I have on her devices is to disable Facetime and Mail apps (she can still get to webmail), and prevent installing new apps (so she can’t install Skype). I also reserved the right to check on her text messages and browsing history. 

Get this- the MC was totally on her side! I was accused of acting self-righteous, that the controls were over the top and more than MC had ever heard of, and that I might have a disorder which is causing the need for such control. MC also believes that the betrayer only has to reveal with whom the A was with and who else knows. So, now I know why my wife suddenly like the MC so much. My wife and MC would have me believe I am pushing her away and that will be the final straw (SadandAngry did make a similar point about danger of 180 right now). MC really has no clue about EA (though she feels otherwise). 

From my perspective, I am not OK with the whole thing being swept under the rug. It is great that my wife as ended contact (so far as I know), but I am not willing to move forward until she opens up about what happened. She lied in some form or another for 1-1/2 years, and wants me to just move forward without her offering any real acknowledgement of what happened. She has shown no remorse for her actions with OM and no real sign that she gets the damage an EA causes. Am I just being stubborn on insisting that she “gets it” and talks about everything that happened? I am wrong to draw this line and force another ultimatum? I feel it is the least she can do to make up for the damage she has done. She should be doing everything in her power to try to make me feel safe and to try to earn back trust. If she keeps her heels dug in where they are now, things will likely be blown completely apart by the time the fog has lifted. 

So, I need to get through to MC#2 and hope that she has a clue. At this point, I doubt my wife will be very willing to see someone else.


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> Well, Saki, you called it.
> 
> So what you've tried to do for the last year is nice her out of her relationship. As you've seen, it does not work.
> 
> Just to clarify--you have no idea what her top 2 love languages are, am I correct? Just humor me and have her take the quiz from the website, just so you have that tiny piece of information.
> 
> As far as her weight--it is probably no coincidence that she's been drawn into a long-distance EA at the same time that she's probably very unhappy with her appearance. There's a lot that goes along with that--clothes not fitting right, clothes selections becoming limited, not wanting to buy new clothes because you're going to (eventually) lose weight, etc. (And some women give up entirely and don't bother with hair and makeup any more either, on the theory of 'why bother, it's hopeless.')
> 
> Have you found ways to exercise with her? Go for bike rides or long walks? Getting her out for a long walk in the evening would do double duty: you'd get her talking, and you'd get her feeling healthier about herself. And getting her off the computer / phone.
> 
> But I agree with Saki--it's useless to minimize the importance of physical appearance, because male sexuality is very visual. It's obviously a lot more than that, or else you wouldn't be fighting for your marriage. So stop feeling bad about that, and instead brainstorm how you can spend active time together (dancing, hiking, swimming, golfing...). Although why do I get a sneaking suspicion you've already tried this, too?
> 
> Anyhow--I hope your new books inspire you to shake things up. You tried the usual route that most people do, so it's time for a radical departure from "normal."


Currently, I believe that my wife’s top 2 LL’s are quality time and acts of service. Words of affirmation and physical touch also resonate with her, so they are not too far behind. QT and acts of service both require time and energy on my part. Between effort at work, with the kids (I coach both of their soccer teams), I have not done a good job making time to meet her needs. I have more to do than time allows at work, and am in the same boat when I get home. If we were to add some recreational time together, and I get some projects done at home, things would improve greatly for my wife. I am working on backing off work hours, so I’ll have more time at home (though it is not a real pleasant place to be at the moment!).

I don’t know how quickly she can meet my needs. She’s still pretty, but it will take a while to lose significant weight (right now she even covers her stomach during sex). The affection and cheery attitude can’t just material right away either. 

Excersizing together hasn’t been much of an option. I’m pretty athletic and my wife is zero athletic. Before kids, we would go on long group bike rides (20-25miles) which was fairly leisurely for me but a good work out for her. This just hasn’t been an option with young kids around. She doesn’t have to work, so she should be able to find plenty of time to exercise in some form if she was motivated enough. If she could take up running, we would at least have a common activity we share experiences with.


----------



## SadandAngry

Well that is unfortunate. MC #2 won't be able to do anything now, your wife will cling to the validation MC #1 has handed her. I'm guessing you never shared your wife's messages with the MC? His/her opinion is based on the things the two of you have said while there together? You need an appointment alone to see if you can set the MC straight on the seriousness of the situation, and the reasoning you are following. 

If you cannot get the cooperation of the MC, then I would say you are going to have to blow one of your sources and tell her you know about that "if only they could see you through my eyes" message. Even in its kindest interpretation it is out of line coming from a married woman.


----------



## island_of_one

SadandAngry said:


> Well that is unfortunate. MC #2 won't be able to do anything now, your wife will cling to the validation MC #1 has handed her. I'm guessing you never shared your wife's messages with the MC? His/her opinion is based on the things the two of you have said while there together? You need an appointment alone to see if you can set the MC straight on the seriousness of the situation, and the reasoning you are following.
> 
> If you cannot get the cooperation of the MC, then I would say you are going to have to blow one of your sources and tell her you know about that "if only they could see you through my eyes" message. Even in its kindest interpretation it is out of line coming from a married woman.


Actually, I have read the magic wand quote to the MC. In one on one sessions, I have told her basically everything that I have found. I saw her last week, explained the latest findings, and told her that I had given W the NC or D choice. I think that MC would acknowledge that it was an EA, but she apparently has a completely different playbook for dealing with affairs. She must think that I could nice my wife out of the EA and into recovery.


----------



## Acabado

island_of_one said:


> I think that MC would acknowledge that it was an EA, but she apparently has a completely different playbook for dealing with affairs. She must think that I could nice my wife out of the EA and into recovery.


One thing is having a different hand at this and another is basically call you psycho, it goes way beyond the "nice her out" aproach.


----------



## warlock07

> She must think that I could nice my wife out of the EA and into recovery.


Why did I know the MC was a woman? 

It looks like men and women MC's handle these things differently


----------



## iheartlife

island--that is one of the risks of MC.

The trouble is, you don't have any of the messages they've exchanged. I'm sure, as I'm sitting here, that if you had a complete transcript of their interactions to lay out before this very same MC, she'd be singing a different tune.

It's very frustrating that most people minimize and belittle EAs until the hard evidence is produced. My view of it is, why the heck do we need hard evidence? Isn't it enough that so much effort and energy is being channeled into these relationships that it's killing the marriage?

That's why I prefer to describe emotional affairs much more broadly. People get all caught up in whether it was "sexual" and whether it was someone the WS found attractive etc. etc. But there is a point where the sheer amount of time that is spent communicating with someone who isn't your spouse, coupled with the fact that whatever is being communicated isn't being shared with the spouse (in fact, _actively withheld_) that these issues of WHO that external confidant is really fall away.

------------------

Island--did you tell the MC about the BF / email thing? If so, what did she say?

Any luck getting your wife to read Not Just Friends?


----------



## SadandAngry

Has the damn MC even read NJF?


----------



## island_of_one

SadandAngry said:


> Has the damn MC even read NJF?


Nope- she has not read it. A few months ago, I told her about it and explained the walls and windows concept. 

I think that MC will agree that it this an EA. But, I don’t think she really understands the way it is damaging or how to effectively deal with one. Unfortunately, having gone to her, instead of someone experienced with EA’s, has cost me a year and allowed things to get much worse.


----------



## iheartlife

Are you going to that MC again? Or are you giving up on them?


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> It's very frustrating that most people minimize and belittle EAs until the hard evidence is produced. My view of it is, why the heck do we need hard evidence? Isn't it enough that so much effort and energy is being channeled into these relationships that it's killing the marriage?
> 
> That's why I prefer to describe emotional affairs much more broadly. People get all caught up in whether it was "sexual" and whether it was someone the WS found attractive etc. etc. But there is a point where the sheer amount of time that is spent communicating with someone who isn't your spouse, coupled with the fact that whatever is being communicated isn't being shared with the spouse (in fact, _actively withheld_) that these issues of WHO that external confidant is really fall away.


I think this is an excellent way to frame the problem with EA's. Whether there is really physical attraction or true romantic feelings is really irrelevant. The "confiding and hiding" aspect is enough of a problem by itself. 




iheartlife said:


> Island--did you tell the MC about the BF / email thing? If so, what did she say?
> 
> Any luck getting your wife to read Not Just Friends?


Yesterday, I did bring up the BF controlled email account with all messages to OM stored safely out of my reach. MC didn't really have a response to it. 

To my knowledge, my wife has not starting reading NJF.


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> Are you going to that MC again? Or are you giving up on them?


I am SO done with that MC. My wife, however, is going back solo on Monday. 

I have been playing phone tag with MC#2. I'll start going by myself and see if I can get my wife to go once I have confirmed that the new MC knows what he/she is doing.


----------



## Saki

Look, I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

The most important thing is what you'll accept.

Forget the semantics, who cares who read what book, blah blah blah blah

None of that matters.

You calmly look your wife and marriage counselor in the face and say exactly what you will accept and exactly what you won't. You won't accept your wife being dishonest, secretive, and going to another man for attention. It isn't complicated.

You don't defend, you don't explain, you don't rationalize, you don't justify. It dosen't matter. The ONLY thing that matters is you.

I've read a lot of positive things and heard some brief summaries of the concepts presented in a book called "When I Say No I Feel Guilty". It dovetails really well with NMMNG and the situation you are in now.

My IC is really wonderful at verbalizing the roles of marriage and how the sort of things your wife is doing does not belong in a marriage. If you are anywhere near my neck of the woods, I'd definitely give you her name.



island_of_one said:


> can’t live with me treating/believing her to be a “deceitful liar”,


Next time your wife goes there, shut her down immediately. Calmly say to her, with authority in your voice (think, you need to sound like no one would ever dare contradict what you are going to say, yet you need to be in full control of your emotions):

You have deceived me and lied to me. You are being treated this way because of actions YOU've done and choices YOU've made. If you behave like a deceitful lair, I will treat you like a deceitful liar. 

(that last sentence, btw, is how you set boundries - if you do this, I'll do that)



island_of_one said:


> and that I might have a disorder which is causing the need for such control.


Wowsers that seems incredibly out of line.

The tricky thing about marriage counselors is this: What message do you send if you bail on this MC right now? That you are only going to listen to what you want to hear. 

Leaving this MC, for this reason, is controlling behavior. There is a really really thin line you have to walk for leaving a MC. 

You need to be prepared to assert yourself and stand by your convictions to this marriage counselor. 

One approach might be to totally embrace her comment about you having a disorder. Play along. Find out what disorder she is refering to, and go get yourself tested by a clincal specialist that is capable and fully credentialed (sp?) to diagnose whatever disorder this is. In other words, a qualified, objective, 3rd party individual.

When this qualified 3rd party individual clears you of this disorder, THAT's when you drop the MC. Then you are dropping the MC because she made a wrong diagnosis, you've got valid proof its wrong. Which is different than dropping her because you don't like what she says...


----------



## Chaparral

I haven't seen this posted but haven't had time to read everyone but you.

If you an get her to sit still, go over each item with her. LOL it is long for a post but not a book. It has helped many many couples.

Print it off and go over it with her. Do not just hand it to her, be prepared for some emotion. If she doesn't get it, that would be bad.


My opinion is that you should contact both bff and OM and bluntly ask them if they are happy that your marriage is nearly over and they have helped it get that way. May be useless, but when responsibility lies on a persons shoulder, it can do wonders for their attitude.

Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly!


----------



## island_of_one

chapparal said:


> Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)
> 
> But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.


I appreciate the info, but I don't think my wife will be willing to hear it. I don't think she is ready to be open/honest with herself about what happened, let alone be concerned with how I feel. She isn't ready for remorse, and I don't think she has put the affair permanently behind her.


----------



## Chaparral

island_of_one said:


> I appreciate the info, but I don't think my wife will be willing to hear it. I don't think she is ready to be open/honest with herself about what happened, let alone be concerned with how I feel. She isn't ready for remorse, and I don't think she has put the affair permanently behind her.


If it helps now or in the future I wish you good luck. Your wife is a cheater whether she knows/admits it or not. They do not come out of it over night. Hold on a while longer but no longer than you can handle.

Depending on how you are doing, do not hesitate to see your MD for some temporary meds. The second thing you must do is excercise, it makes yo feel instantly better phsyically and most of all mentally. I prefer weight lifting LOL because you can't think and count at the same time. Running for example, gives me to much time to think (or maybe basketball and football coaches taught me to hate running)LOL. Cycling helps but I love that.

She is not going to turn on a dime. But in the case of being nice, when the MC started what amounts to BS, you should have told them both they were knocking the last prop from under your marriage. It sounds like you let them gang up up on you. Just say fine, you can have your long distance boyfriend and the kids half the time, get a job now..... and walk out on them.


----------



## Saki

chapparal said:


> But in the case of being nice, when the MC started what amounts to BS, you should have told them both they were knocking the last prop from under your marriage. It sounds like you let them gang up up on you. Just say fine, you can have your long distance boyfriend and the kids half the time, get a job now..... and walk out on them.


This is what I mean by being able to strongly stand by your convictions.

This is also why the critical first step in this process is really truly deep in your soul being willing to give your marriage up. If you aren't really there, that sort of tactic won't really work - it'll be transparent and your bluff will be called.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> The tricky thing about marriage counselors is this: What message do you send if you bail on this MC right now? That you are only going to listen to what you want to hear.
> 
> Leaving this MC, for this reason, is controlling behavior. There is a really really thin line you have to walk for leaving a MC.
> 
> You need to be prepared to assert yourself and stand by your convictions to this marriage counselor.


I see your point about how leaving MC#1 will seem like I’m stopping just because I don’t agree. I am willing to go back and continue to express what I need to happen in order to move forward. However, I am not sure that this will accomplish a whole lot. While it may show me as being less controlling, I fear more sessions with MC#1 will doing nothing but reinforce my wife’s position of her dignity and privacy over the marriage and my needs. 

What my wife needs is somebody/something qualified to help her start seeing the light. Maybe she just needs more time. While it may not matter how/who defines what is an EA, getting my wife to accept (to herself to start with) the magnitude of what she had done would be a huge step. If she still maintains denial of any major wrong-doing, then her resentment of me will only build while am I am monitoring to verify NC and maintaining a 180. I can wait for a while, but my wife already seems to be ready to accept the potential of us splitting up. I can’t say whether we’ll still be together by the time she “gets it.” 



Saki said:


> You calmly look your wife and marriage counselor in the face and say exactly what you will accept and exactly what you won't. You won't accept your wife being dishonest, secretive, and going to another man for attention. It isn't complicated.
> 
> You don't defend, you don't explain, you don't rationalize, you don't justify. It dosen't matter. The ONLY thing that matters is you.


I think I did OK during the session. I was calm and unemotional the whole time. I told MC that I was not crazy and that I simply disagreed with her opinion. The session ended a bit abruptly, but was left at: my requirement to move forward was for my wife to come clean on the affair. Supposedly, the going to another man part is done, but the dishonest and secretive behavior persists.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> This is also why the critical first step in this process is really truly deep in your soul being willing to give your marriage up. If you aren't really there, that sort of tactic won't really work - it'll be transparent and your bluff will be called.


Well, once again you've clarified the bottom line- am I really, truly ready to give up the marriage? My actions going forward (and their success) really depend up this. Honestly, I can't say that I am 100% there at this moment. Still sorting this one out. As I contemplate, I can't help but picture my kids in a split family and wonder about putting my needs above theirs.


----------



## walkonmars

Another poster (still numb) had a wife that was engaged in a LD EA with an old bf. He acted decisively. Things improved almost immediately. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/59672-need-talk-type.html


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> Any luck getting your wife to read Not Just Friends?


I think there is some progress here. I am not sure if she has started, but she has made some indications that she is ready to read affair related books (NJF is the first on the list). She did refuse to read anything by Harley as she doesn't like how he writes. I think that is kind of BS, but I am sure there are other books that would be enlightening for her. Her willingness to read something is at least progress. I'll update when I find out she's started NJF.

Ironically, what she has read is NMMNG. I read the first couple chapters last night but wasn't feeling well and went to bed. Wife stayed up for a while and read the whole thing. Don't know if that is good or bad. Haven't had a chance to talk about it yet, but she did indicate that she thought the book would likely make me not want to stay with her. I am curious to hear her explanation on that. 

I did talk to MC#2 yesterday and she sounds like dealing with affairs is regular business for her. I forgot to ask specifically if she is familiar with NJF. Got an appt. on the 18th.


----------



## iheartlife

island_of_one said:


> I think there is some progress here. I am not sure if she has started, but she has made some indications that she is ready to read affair related books (NJF is the first on the list). She did refuse to read anything by Harley as she doesn't like how he writes. I think that is kind of BS, but I am sure there are other books that would be enlightening for her. Her willingness to read something is at least progress. I'll update when I find out she's started NJF.
> 
> Ironically, what she has read is NMMNG. I read the first couple chapters last night but wasn't feeling well and went to bed. Wife stayed up for a while and read the whole thing. Don't know if that is good or bad. Haven't had a chance to talk about it yet, but she did indicate that she thought the book would likely make me not want to stay with her. I am curious to hear her explanation on that.


Well, NJF is better than Harley anyhow for an emotional affair such as hers. I think some women don't like Harley because when he first wrote HN/HN, he broke up the needs in a gender stereotypical way. He has since altered the introduction to specify that each person is different and the point is, here are the top 10 needs in marriage, don't get bogged down too much in which needs go with which genders because that's just a broad generalization.

What's really too bad as a bias against Harley is that his Policy of Radical Honesty is a total blueprint to get you out of this mess. She seems to think that keeping lots of secrets from your spouse is perfectly okay. Unfortunately, keeping secrets, and even worse--active deceit to protect those secrets--is a road map for making your spouse your enemy. It's easy to see why; when you set your spouse up as some sort of adversary who you must outwit, there is very little team building, let alone strengthening of romantic love.



> I did talk to MC#2 yesterday and she sounds like dealing with affairs is regular business for her. I forgot to ask specifically if she is familiar with NJF. Got an appt. on the 18th.


Try to figure this out. Affairs are probably the #1 reason that people enter counseling, so saying "I deal with affairs all the time," is like saying, "I'm a marriage counselor." 

I really feel for you, you've got a tough situation. I was fortunate in that even my husband acknowledged that our first counselor was ineffectual, and that our second counselor got through to the heart of the matter.


----------



## iheartlife

I forgot the NNMNG thing. Let us know when you get a chance to discuss your wife's thoughts on the subject.


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> I forgot the NNMNG thing. Let us know when you get a chance to discuss your wife's thoughts on the subject.


After reading the book, my wife felt that a lot things were applicable to me and would be helpful. She also thought some of the concepts were a bit out out there. One comment she made was that the book suggests that a reformed nice guy will be able to greatly improve intimate relationships, but should also ditch his dysfunctional relationships (which ours is at the moment). This was the basis for the comment that she thought I would want to split up after reading the book.


----------



## island_of_one

Wife and I had a long talk Saturday night. It was a rational conversation for the most part, with a few moments of EA-monster sprinkled in. We covered a lot of things which all kind of blur together, but I’ll update on what I recall. She felt like talking, so I tried to make her feel safe to speak her mind without countering all of the comments she made. 

My wife is considering a separation. I think the real threat of divorce really changed things for my wife. She feels like she needs to be looking at contingency plans in case things go bad. I think the threat of divorce drove home the idea that I could move on without her, and her reaction has been to feel unwanted/unloved (as opposed to being driven to work to save the marriage). It turns out after the last MC session, my wife stopped by a couple of nearby apartments to check on rates. Right now, we both have a lot of resentment and consequently don’t really like each other all that much at the moment. Though she sent the NC letter, I am still unhappy with how she’s behaving (not showing remorse with her actions). I think she truly feels demeaned by the “martial law” I implemented following NC. My wife isn’t hearing from me that I really want her to stay, and she fears that things won’t work out even if we try. She doubts if I will ever really be happy with her. She wonders if I want to pursue having freedom to try to see if the grass is greener elsewhere. From her side, she says she doesn’t see herself ever being with someone else. The separation would be some time apart to see if we would actually miss each other. 

My wife has a lot of fears at the moment. Afraid that she may do something that I intrepet in negative way- which would result in being the final straw. Afraid that there will be more threats/consequences (such as being cutoff from BF). Afraid that I won’t be able to forgive her. Afraid to tell me things about the EA for fear it will result in more questions and investigation. Basically, she’s afraid of controlling behavior on my part. 

At the very end of the conversation, I asked her if she truly thought she’d had affair. To my surprise, she said yes (mostly). She admitted from the perspective of having lied and kept secrets, that she did have an affair. She’s not ready to admit her level of emotional connection to OM. She also is not ready/able to deal with the guilt/shame for having had an affair. She indicated how “deep the knife goes” whenever she has to admit it was an affair. In other words, if she is forced to come clean about everything, the pain from guilt will destroy her. Right now, she is not ready to be open about what happened, because she is afraid to really admit to herself what she’s done. I assured her that I would be able to forgive her, but she said she wasn’t sure she’d ever be able to forgive herself. 

After the conversation, it occurred to me how completely broken our relationship has become. It wasn’t good before all of this started, and the 1-1/2 years of being enemies on the EA has really crippled what was left. The wall between us has become so enormous that my wife has come to completely fear being open with me. It’s to the point of each of wondering if we truly want to go forward together. The talk of separation was applicable even if we set aside the EA. 

We go back to MC#1 today. My thought is that it may be helpful to continue some of the conversation we had over the weekend. Wife is willing to go to MC#2 next week.


----------



## Shaggy

She's going through withdrawl from the EA and is seeing you as the reason it is ending. It's not specifically resentment that she's feeling, it's more a case of how to eliminate the thing that's stopping her getting her fix.

Separation would be perfect for that. It would move you out the way so she could resume the EA, while not officially being the bad person by divorcing you so she can have her EA.

Your wife is testing the waters with two ideas:

1. I'm the victim here. You've created a hostile marriage environment (by fighting me on my EA) and I don't know if I can trust you (to back off an let me do it more if I want to down the road)

2. You're controlling, and i can't trust you, because now that I've gone NC, who knows what other demands you are going to force upon me.


----------



## Saki

If your relationship is disfunctional, you should not be in it.

You have a long way to go.

I can tell from your writting you are not capable of terminating this relationship. 

You consistantly (describe) attempt(ing) to fix your wife's feelings. She feels scared of ending the marriage, insecure, guilt, etc - those things are not your problem. They are normal responses for someone in her position. She will resent you if you fix her problems.

Furthermore, you WANT her to be afraid of you leaving. That is the whole concept behind MMSL.

The only other thing I want to say, is do not accept separation. That is where you wife goes to **** around with other people and maintain her affair relationship, hoping this will all blow over.

As Dr Glover says, you go all in. Either all in on the marriage, or all in on divorce. Separation = limbo.


----------



## TRy

Do not separate. Statistically, when a couple does separate, it greatly increases their chances of getting divorced. One recent study even found that roughly 79 percent of couples who separate later go on to file for divorce. Separation will also make her more likely to break NC as she will have both the opportunity and a greater emotional need. Separation will also make her feel that it no longer your business as to what she does and who she talks to, with some cheaters even feeling that it is OK to secretly date while separated since you are not really fully married anymore.

Bottom line is either divorce or work on your marraige together, tell her that separation is not an option. I fear that the bad MC will advice otherwise so be prepared to stand strong on this.


----------



## iheartlife

Yep, agree with everyone else, separation is a disloyal's way of continuing to cake eat. If you want to separate, then why not divorce.

It's just bull that you will "miss" each other if you separate. What will happen is that the wall that is now up to the roof will simply go up to the sky.

The fact is, she felt like talking to you. And do you know why? Because her other confiding relationships aren't satisfactory, so she needed to share her feelings somewhere. She chose to share them with you. The fact that they are so negative is obscuring the fact that


SHE REACHED OUT AND CONFIDED IN YOU

which hasn't happened in like what, years??

She is expressing her fears about how your relationship is going to change because you are ASSERTIVE. This is not going to push her away, it's going to draw her to you. It's human and normal to dislike change. She's uncertain what the "new you" is going to mean--she is so used to having the upper hand in everything that she has no clue whether she's going to like sharing power and control (and ceding it entirely on some issues, or at certain times).


She didn't express remorse the way she ought to, but she has put out some feelers.

All in all, I think this is a sign of progress. That isn't to say the two of you will succeed--she may in fact be so addicted to control in the relationship that she isn't willing to share it--but I think I see some upsides in that conversation that weren't there before.

She basically said, she doesn't want to end your relationship, despite requesting a separation. So again, separation would just mean more cake-eating for her. Now, push the fact that you know she wants to stay with you to get to a new counselor.


----------



## Saki

What has resonated with you so far from NMMNG?


----------



## island_of_one

Meeting at MC#1 today went about like Saturday night at home. Similar topics and wife had a similar trend of waves of sadness, crying, and a little anger. She basically loses it when it comes to speaking of hurting me for so long, and how that is contrary to everything she believes in. To me, the depth of her pain when acknowledging this speaks to what level of betrayal she is aware of internally but not ready to disclose to me. For me, I have been very unemotional in the meetings. At one point the MC asked me what I was feeling (right after my wife started getting upset), and I basically had to answer nothing. 

I am in agreement that separation is a bad idea. She plays it off as thinking that I don’t want her and that I’ll be happier without her. She has mentioned this in the past even before the EA. My instinct (probably the wrong one!) is to take her at her word as opposed to viewing it as a ploy to get back with OM. 

I find myself struggling to truly treat her as an addict. She has hidden the emotionally attached side of herself from me so well, I find it hard to recognize some of her behaviors as simply trying to manipulate me. Having a MC that sympathizes with my wife doesn’t help. Does her behaviors match perfectly will all the other WS’s? In other words, she’s not special, she behaves like everybody else in her position, and don’t believe what she tells me. 

There is another reason that a separation is a bad idea. My wife is correct in thinking that there is a part of me that is thinking the grass would be greener elsewhere. I have had some sense of disappointment in her for a lot of years. It is hard to get married to so young and have both people turn out the way the other expects/needs. So, a separation would likely provide me an opportunity to have some freedom, and I doubt that I would come back saying how much I miss her. A separation would very likely be the end of us. Having kids is a complicating factor. I continue to struggle with trying to convince myself that choosing my needs first over them is best. I guess I am not far enough along in the nice guy reformation to get past this point.

Out of time for now...I'll post more updates in the morning. Thanks again for all of the advice and comments. I don't know about anybody else that went through this, but it is hard to keep my eyes wide open enough when trying to decipher my wife's behavior. On paper, it all sounds like a clear pattern. Face to face interactions add to the confusion. It is also not a quick path to trying to drastically change the way I think about the world and where my needs fit in.


----------



## SadandAngry

Yes, she is acting normally.

No, it will not be quick and easy to fix.

If you can start communicating with each other, and start meeting each other's needs, it is worth the effort though. And your kids get a healthier, happy family.

You are doing well!


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> Does her behaviors match perfectly will all the other WS’s? In other words, she’s not special, she behaves like everybody else in her position, and don’t believe what she tells me.


Yep, to a tee my man.

She's not upset about you. She's upset about herself. She's upset she lost her affair partner, upset she got caught, and she's fighting tooth and nail to come out of this without looking like a bad person.

It's lizard brain behavior.



island_of_one said:


> I don't know about anybody else that went through this, but it is hard to keep my eyes wide open enough when trying to decipher my wife's behavior. On paper, it all sounds like a clear pattern. Face to face interactions add to the confusion.


Indeed. You've put your wife on a pedestal. You've looked at her through rose colored glasses. In fact, you've probably put every attractive women in the same spot.

I can tell you through experience that your world view will change drastically if you come out of this a stronger man. It's a game changer. 

The moment you REALLY get it, has been coined the "red pill" moment, from the scene in the matrix. Assuming you are familiar with the movie, it is exactly what it's like. Things start making sense on an entirely different level and you start seeing things you never saw before.

Even your perspective on the "grass is greener" issue changes. Once you've become self validating, and no longer require the approval of others to maintain your ego, you just plain don't care about the grass on the other side, because you have committed to making your grass as green as possible. 

And if the grass on your side *isn't green enough for you*, you move on. You don't sit there thinking about it. (see my earlier quote, if your relationship isn't functional, don't be in it!)

It's very important to understand that the greeness of the grass on the other side, plays absolutely no role in the equation.

I'm rambling. 

I just remember sitting in your shoes. How foggy everything was. How frustrating and confusing it was. How unsure, how out of control. I felt like a piece of paper blowing in the wind. Always reacting. Completely miserable.

There's just a few simple lynchpins that change all of that. 

It's so easy to understand now. 

The language you are using in your posts makes me think you are moving the wrong direction though.


----------



## island_of_one

A quick update. I have not had good luck with VAR’s lately, but I did capture a 15min chat with BF yesterday. My wife was moving in and out of the room, so I didn’t get all of it. I believe the conversation was right after wife got home from MC appointment (where she left in tears). By the time she talked to BF, she was casual, unemotional, and seemingly unbothered by the whole thing. But, I think I learned a lot more about what my wife is thinking than what she has told me directly for a long time. Here are some the nuggets spoken from her mouth:

- On two occasions, she basically said she likes her life, her house, the community, the kids’ schools, living by the beach, etc, but just doesn’t like her marriage or her husband. Interesting…
- She feels that she will be giving up too much of herself to “put up with” the things going on now (i.e. me imposing restrictions on her)
- She doesn’t like that she has appeared weak during our conflict.
- She read NMMNG because the title (and first chapter) scared her.
- To BF, she basically blamed our issues on me have a mental condition (“equivalent to having a disease”) and she would feel bad if she didn’t at least give it a try to help me (presumably before ending things). WTH!!??
- There was one comment I could only understand part of, but really wish I heard fully. It was something like “I feel bad because I know (i_o_o) is hurting but” followed by 2-3 uninteligble words and then OM’s name. 
- Another partial comment about not wanting to screw up the holidays. (perhaps delaying a further push for separation until after). 

I’m assuming this all still fits the pattern. My take is that she is trying build herself up to be strong in preparation for trying to re-establish control. She doesn’t like the authoritative actions I’ve taken and she is preparing to push back. She lies to others about the root cause of our issues so she come out of this without looking like the BS/bad person. The very long period of attachment to OM has erased most of the positive things she saw in me previously. Does this sound about right? 

We have had some conflicting dynamics in our marriage. Functionally, and to the outside world, I am the dominant figure in making decisions, plans, purchases, projects, etc. I tend to get annoyed easily when she does something I don’t like, and at times she feels like she has to walk on egg shells to avoid my disapproval. But, I am starting to understand how completely she has controlled the relationship between us. I have ceded control by caretaking for her, trying to please her, being afraid of her reactions, expecting her to meet my needs if I meet hers without asking, etc. Her mood determines how smoothly things go in the relationship. 

I’ll be back later this afternoon to finish replies to previous posts.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> Her mood determines how smoothly things go in the relationship.
> .


That is called "codependancy"

Again, your wife is following the script. She's placating you to your face and then building herself up and making you a bad guy to anyone whom will listen. She's protecting her self image.

Your only defense is to not care what other people think (this again, comes down to self approval...)


----------



## Acabado

island_of_one said:


> - To BF, she basically blamed our issues on me have a *mental condition* (“equivalent to having a disease”) and she would feel bad if she didn’t at least give it a try to help me (presumably before ending things). WTH!!??
> - There was one comment I could only understand part of, but really wish I heard fully. It was something like “I feel bad because I know (i_o_o) is hurting but” followed by 2-3 uninteligble words and then OM’s name.


This is the second person t oalude of something "wrong" in you.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the only link between them is your WW. BF obviously is her confidant but did MC meet her before you?
If so she clearly gaslighting them, badmouthing you.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> That is called "codependancy"


It's funny, the word codependent has been used often in my marriage but always referring to my wife. Our definition was different than what I now see is the common definition. My wife does have some co-dependent tendencies but she is primarily just overly dependent on me to handle things for her. It is clear to me now that I have been the truly codependent one. Just never knew until now. She stays needy and controls me by having me do things for her (and usually doesn’t have to ask!), and I have lived as caretaker and always put her needs above mine. This has been peaceful… until I am not able to meet the tasks that she wants. Looking back, I am beginning to lots of reasons why the fallacy of the “perfect relationship” established in our early days fell apart pretty quickly. Man, a lot of our relationship was not based on healthy behavior. 



Saki said:


> Again, your wife is following the script. She's placating you to your face and then building herself up and making you a bad guy to anyone whom will listen. She's protecting her self image.


OK- I'm with it again. I was momentarily confused due to the habit of believing what she says, but hearing how she talked to BF has lifted the fogginess. I will now return to the previously schedule episode of typical WW going through withdrawal behavior. 



Saki said:


> Your only defense is to not care what other people think (this again, comes down to self approval...)


I will do my best! Ironically, I have always known this at a certain level, but never had the insight (or big enough kick in the pants!) to do something about it. Being a BS may actually result in a huge improvement in my well-being if I can continue down the (NMMNG) path I see for myself (with or without the wife). I haven't quite found the red pill yet, but I am at least hunting for it.


----------



## island_of_one

Acabado said:


> This is the second person t oalude of something "wrong" in you.
> Correct me if I'm wrong but the only link between them is your WW. BF obviously is her confidant but did MC meet her before you?
> If so she clearly gaslighting them, badmouthing you.


My wife apparently likes to tell others that I am messed up. She told this to OM when trying to explain why we're having issues. She tells this to BF. And, I am sure she tries similar approaches with the MC. I think she ended having to lie to everyone in order to keep her secret life going. And she is still trying to protect it. 

Looking back, I can see clear examples of how she was gaslighting me. Always taking an objection of mine and turning around to how she is worried about me and my state of mind. At the time, I wasn't ready to believe that she was capable of being that manipulative. Alas, she is no different than other WS's.


----------



## Chaparral

I hope your MC can help you out, she is in really deep. Do you believe she will stay no contact? Have you thought about contacting her bff to ask her if she realizes how deep she was into this guy?


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> She didn't express remorse the way she ought to, but she has put out some feelers.
> 
> All in all, I think this is a sign of progress. That isn't to say the two of you will succeed--she may in fact be so addicted to control in the relationship that she isn't willing to share it--but I think I see some upsides in that conversation that weren't there before.
> 
> She basically said, she doesn't want to end your relationship, despite requesting a separation. So again, separation would just mean more cake-eating for her. Now, push the fact that you know she wants to stay with you to get to a new counselor.


I wasn't as encouraged by the conversation Saturday night, but your interpretation does make sense. It can be hard to translate her behavior these days. :scratchhead:

There was some definite progress yesterday. My wife gathered up several artifacts from OM (calendar, a music CD he made for her) and put them away in a box high up in the closest. Thrown away would be better, but it is a big step in the right direction. She also started reading NJF and volunteered that she wished she had read it a long time ago. She struggled to hold back her emotions at this point and didn't elaborate on any details. Again, a sign of progress.


----------



## iheartlife

island_of_one said:


> I wasn't as encouraged by the conversation Saturday night, but your interpretation does make sense. It can be hard to translate her behavior these days. :scratchhead:
> 
> There was some definite progress yesterday. My wife gathered up several artifacts from OM (calendar, a music CD he made for her) and put them away in a box high up in the closest. Thrown away would be better, but it is a big step in the right direction. She also started reading NJF and volunteered that she wished she had read it a long time ago. She struggled to hold back her emotions at this point and didn't elaborate on any details. Again, a sign of progress.


I consider that huge. Yes, throwing the stuff away is the ultimate goal. But to go from 100% refusal to acknowledge that it was at all wrong to this, is definitely a sign of progress.

I really like NJF. What I think it does so well is plead the side of the loyal spouse and how horrible it is to be betrayed. There are entire passages that I would read aloud to my husband because he wouldn't read it instead. They totally spoke for me.

One thing I want to point out; 5 Love Languages and HN/HN don't work in an atmosphere where there is contact with an AP. After the disloyal spouse goes through a period of withdrawal, however, they will (hopefully) be more open and responsive to these ideas. You will have to gauge when it's appropriate to try again. But again, through the lens of NNMNG.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> There was some definite progress yesterday. My wife gathered up several artifacts from OM (calendar, a music CD he made for her) and put them away in a box high up in the closest. Thrown away would be better, but it is a big step in the right direction.


He made her a CD?

You let your wife keep a CD that another man made her? (Hopefully not) During your marriage?

You really can't come down too hard on her. Consider burning this box right in front of her. It HAS to go.

You're getting there. Keep making progress


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> One thing I want to point out; 5 Love Languages and HN/HN don't work in an atmosphere where there is contact with an AP.


You are absolutely correct on that one. I tried it for a long while and learned the hard way that it doesn't work when the BS is still thinking of OM all the time. At least when the time comes, my wife is already familiar with the concepts. 

Of course, I am now understanding that we have other aspects of our relationship that need addressing beyond just meeting EM's. We will really be starting over with each other. We have been very codependent on each other which has lead to both of us being unsatisfied. My wife commented last night that she felt she should be able to focus on herself and her needs (on which I agreed) and that her needs haven't been put first for 20years. I pointed out that she was the one that wasn't putting them first, because I have certainly put hers above mine all along. Anyway, there a LOT of work to.....once she is past withdrawal.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> He made her a CD?
> 
> You let your wife keep a CD that another man made her? (Hopefully not) During your marriage?
> 
> You really can't come down too hard on her. Consider burning this box right in front of her. It HAS to go.
> 
> You're getting there. Keep making progress


Yep, he shipped a CD of songs overseas to her about a year ago. Sounds very high school-ish, huh? Music was a connection that they had as they were into song lyrics and unique songs. My wife was secretly working on a long playlist to send to him, but I think she hadn't figured out how to transfer from iPad to usb drive to send it. My wife was also "clever" enough to play the song for my kids frequently so they were into the music as well. My daughter is now a big fan of some female german singer. 

For now, I am content with the CD being stored out of the way. Getting it out of sight for the moment will help with withdrawal. One day it will have to go, but she is at least showing signs of moving in the right direction. Ideally, she will get to the point where she knows that she has to toss out all of the memorabilia.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> My wife commented last night that she felt she should be able to focus on herself and her needs (on which I agreed) and that her needs haven't been put first for 20years. .


Um. Wow?

She was looking outside her marriage to fulfill her needs, yet her perspective was that she was not making her needs a priority?

Bud, look out for this one. What do you think is gonnna happen when she starts consciously putting herself first?? :scratchhead:


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> Um. Wow?
> 
> She was looking outside her marriage to fulfill her needs, yet her perspective was that she was not making her needs a priority?
> 
> Bud, look out for this one. What do you think is gonnna happen when she starts consciously putting herself first?? :scratchhead:


To clarify, I believe her comment was exclusive of the EA. I think that this was one of the rationalizations that she used to convince herself to carry on with what she was doing. In other words, I think she told herself that since her needs weren’t put first for all these years, that it was OK to be doing something just for herself now. That’s my theory anyway. I’m sure there were many ways she rationalized things to herself. She certainly spewed a lot of them my way!


----------



## Acabado

If you choose to do somethings really relfish sometimes the only way to justify it to yourself is rewriting, believing your self a long term suffering deprived victim who put yourself first for the first time in ages instead of being the old used caregiver. They sold thsmselves this narrative. Hard to crack.


----------



## Chaparral

Give this some time, people don't just snap out of this over night. As a matter of fact few do not backslide at some point so be prepared an don't freak when it happens.


----------



## island_of_one

I have been sick the last few days and haven’t had a chance to post. No new revelations the last few days. The atmosphere is still residing at just above cordial and well below warm and friendly. As expected, there has been a mixture of positive and negative indications from my wife. The good: she is going to the meeting with MC#2 tomorrow, she’s still willing to read EA articles/books, and she has thrown a few “I love you’s” my way (even though I have not done so in a couple weeks). I think the 180 and the indifferent attitude toward her is starting to have an effect. Yesterday, she stated that she wanted to start working on finding time to do things together. She also indicated that, even we are still residing together, she was lonely and sad. Not my problem at the moment- I hope in the next few weeks she’ll start to understand what _she_ can do to improve things. 

On the bad indication side, she "informed" me yesterday that the user restrictions on her phone would be going away soon. I asked her why she thought I would be doing that, and she said I could choose to trust her or not. I did not respond to her at the time, though the easy answer to that question is that I don’t trust her. Perhaps one day that will sink it for her. In any case, it sounds like she is building herself up in preparation for challenging me again. 

We will see how MC#2 works out tomorrow.


----------



## dgtal

I destroyed de CD's the OM gave to my wife. I smashed them with a 20 lbs hammer except for one which I returned back to the OMW with a threatening note.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Tell her trust must be earned through actions, not demanded in negotiations.


----------



## Chaparral

It used to be stated a lot here but seems to have been neglected lately, that you have to keep dating your wife. Keep romancing her, throughtout your marriage, as in forever. This is one of the most common missteps men make. We get comfortable and let the romance seep out of the marriage. How are you on dating your wife.

If she is doing all you say she is, the 180 may very well backfire. It was not designed to bring a wayward wife back but to prepare you for divorce. Showing your wife your "back" will not increase her desire to be with you. The 180 comes with a warning that it can force a couple apart.

In MMSL there is a "Plan" to rejuvenate a struggling Marriage, you should be doing that.

From what you have posted, you have not read it and I fear you are going to lose this battle in the end.


----------



## Saki

It's his decision to make, but I think it's much too soon to be dating his wife at this point. She steeped out of a pretty hardcore EA about a week ago.

Things are following the script.

Shaggy is exactly right, trust is earned, not demanded of. Don't be afraid to tell her you don't trust her either. She was way outta line there.

I think MMSL is a stage 2 or 3 book. 

To me, stage 1 is breaking co dependant bonds. Stage 2 is becoming more self validating. 

In the context of a healthy relationship with a strong male leader, MMSL is set up to rock things to the next level. The content in MMSL becomes more second nature and/or a way to put the strong, healthy perspective into action.

There are plenty of examples out there of guys who try to do MMSL long before they are strong enough to handle it. Sounds like a recipe for disaster: "Come on baby, lets go have some awesome sex" "no..." "awwwwwwww (pouts in corner)"


----------



## Chaparral

Saki said:


> It's his decision to make, but I think it's much too soon to be dating his wife at this point. She steeped out of a pretty hardcore EA about a week ago.
> 
> Things are following the script.
> 
> Shaggy is exactly right, trust is earned, not demanded of. Don't be afraid to tell her you don't trust her either. She was way outta line there.
> 
> I think MMSL is a stage 2 or 3 book.
> 
> To me, stage 1 is breaking co dependant bonds. Stage 2 is becoming more self validating.
> 
> In the context of a healthy relationship with a strong male leader, MMSL is set up to rock things to the next level. The content in MMSL becomes more second nature and/or a way to put the strong, healthy perspective into action.
> 
> There are plenty of examples out there of guys who try to do MMSL long before they are strong enough to handle it. Sounds like a recipe for disaster: "Come on baby, lets go have some awesome sex" "no..." "awwwwwwww (pouts in corner)"


The main point of my post is that this is not the right place for the 180. Thats not its purpose. If she has stopped the affair its time to rebuild. As in "striking while the iron is hot."


----------



## Saki

There are really only a few points in the 180 that do not belong in a healthy relationship.

And those points, most "how to get laid" processes would have you use them awful sparingly.

EDIT I'm not trying to be contentous. I feel sort of like I'm arguing for the sake of arguing, but I guess my real point is that the 180 is an emotional empowerment tool, and emotional empowerment is appropriate at all times.


----------



## island_of_one

Wife and I talked a while last night. It was not productive- as is usually the case when my wife has a certain tone of voice (which I now associate with her emotionally tangled side). It started when I told her how I gotten the referral to MC#2 thru a local addiction clinic. She took offense that I am sharing info with others about her “addiction” while I’m not OK with her confiding in others. She went on to make clear that she is hurting badly and can’t go on indefinitely with the way things are right now (i.e. us being very distant and not being warm, friendly). Her line was that she is dying a bit each day. She feels she is doing what I ask of her but it is not making things any better. That she is apparently not doing things right and doesn’t know how to do more. I pointed out that begrudgingly doing what I ask is far different than proactively trying to make amends. I reminded her that I am not OK with sweeping things under the rug, and that we have to resolve our fight over the EA (even if the A is past tense) before I can move forward. I told her that when she is ready to disclose everything that happened, and when she is truly remorseful and ready to take actions to build trust, then we’d be somewhere. We’ve been having a fight for 1-1/2 years and nothing has happened that resolves that conflict. 

She has also recognized my 180 behavior. She has observed that I am detaching from the situation and focusing on making sure I’m OK no matter the outcome. She claims that her agreement to go NC was her commitment to work on us, but she now sees that I am not yet committing to move forward 100%. I agreed that I am riding the wave right now, waiting to decide how to move forward, and making sure that I will be OK regardless of how things unfold.

So, the 180 approach has allowed me to protect myself for ongoing pain from her denial, it is helping me to view a positive outlook for myself regardless of how things pan (R or D), and allows me to start working on myself. The self empowerment aspect is not at issue I think. It is the indifference toward my wife that is more in question. My 180 has made it clear to my wife that I am still not OK with her behavior and it is certainly putting pressure on her. My hope is that the pressure will eventually get her to change her perspective and shed the denial. 

However, it is doing a good job of providing increasingly more distance between us. One way of interpreting her statement on not being able to tolerate the current environment is that she is passively trying to issue an ultimatum that I need to makes things more pleasant …or else. Or, perhaps, she is really isn’t in a place where she can tolerate things. If, in the coming weeks, she really isn’t able to bring herself to deal with the issues that got her into this mess, and to be open and honest with me about what happened, then the ongoing indifference may push her to a breaking point (which, at this point, I can deal with). Right now, she seems to want a beacon of hope and encouragement to push her along in dealing with painful feelings.


----------



## island_of_one

Update #2
I went solo to the meeting with MC#2 this morning, as my wife was home with my daughter (who came down with flu I had over the weekend). The meeting was marginal at best. A lot of the time was me giving details on the last two years. Some quick notes:

- She felt that forcing no contact and putting restrictions on her phone would cause resentment toward me (me= the bad guy) and make me more of a parent than a partner. 
- I asked her what her normal script is for busting up an EA, and I didn’t get a clear answer. Mostly, it seems like her focus is on fixing what is wrong with the individual (issue from childhood or whatever) that prevents normal attachment to a spouse (i.e. have to fix what lead to the infidelity so it won’t happen again). She did agree that no contact with AP was necessary, but I think the inference was that one had to convince the BS to break off contact (instead of forcing it upon them). Sounds like a long road to have to fix childhood issues before dealing directly with infidelity. 
- I mentioned looking at affairs as a form of addiction and she did not pipe up with any confirmation of that viewpoint. 
- She is not familiar with NJF

So, I am not very encouraged. I had hoped she would have a clear plan of how she attacks this sort of problem and would be able to show insight into how my wife is behaving. She certainly was pleasant to talk and had some interesting things to say, but I foresee a lot of sessions having to take place before we get anywhere. Not to mention, the fact that she is not in favor of forcing no contact doesn’t bode well for helping me in the current situation. Don’t know if it is worth going back, or if I should try to find another therapist. Which I’m sure my wife will take as me just shopping around for a therapist that agrees with me.


----------



## Saki

Is too bad about your daughter and the flu (on the obvious levels, but also because you had to fly solo).

I don't think that not being familiar with NJF is damning for your MC. It gives you an opportunity to talk about it, especially I think the walls and windows concept.

I've not really had any luck getting concrete plans out of therapists. I've read about people who have. I think they are in the vast majority.

She is right about you forcing things makes you the bad guy. But in the end, you are merely fighting for your marriage. Your wife clearly wasn't going to do that for you. If R is sucessful, it seems like she'd eventually transition from resentful to greatful.

Eventually, you do have to make a choice to blindly trust your wife. We all reach that point. You give up the mistrust and simply have to have faith that she isn't going to do it again. It's actually a huge relief for us (BS). It's part of forgiveness. I certainly don't think now is the right time.

Most of the material I've read also traces the causes of your situation to childhood issues. NMMNG, Janis Springs, whatever else I can't think of right off the top of my head. This ties in with "the BS bares no responsibility for this choice" because it was the disfunctional choice of a broken person. If you can (you = therapy process + proactive actions from both spouses) address and heal that pain that exists in the wayward, it eliminates the desire of the wayward to stray if presented the same situation in the future.

It IS a long road. Which is part of what makes your wife's current demands a bit unreasonable. She simply wants it over with, back to normal, no harm done. It's understandable if you stand in her shoes.


----------



## Chaparral

island_of_one said:


> Update #2
> I went solo to the meeting with MC#2 this morning, as my wife was home with my daughter (who came down with flu I had over the weekend). The meeting was marginal at best. A lot of the time was me giving details on the last two years. Some quick notes:
> 
> - She felt that forcing no contact and putting restrictions on her phone would cause resentment toward me (me= the bad guy) and make me more of a parent than a partner.
> - I asked her what her normal script is for busting up an EA, and I didn’t get a clear answer. Mostly, it seems like her focus is on fixing what is wrong with the individual (issue from childhood or whatever) that prevents normal attachment to a spouse (i.e. have to fix what lead to the infidelity so it won’t happen again). She did agree that no contact with AP was necessary, but I think the inference was that one had to convince the BS to break off contact (instead of forcing it upon them). Sounds like a long road to have to fix childhood issues before dealing directly with infidelity.
> - I mentioned looking at affairs as a form of addiction and she did not pipe up with any confirmation of that viewpoint.
> - She is not familiar with NJF
> 
> So, I am not very encouraged. I had hoped she would have a clear plan of how she attacks this sort of problem and would be able to show insight into how my wife is behaving. She certainly was pleasant to talk and had some interesting things to say, but I foresee a lot of sessions having to take place before we get anywhere. Not to mention, the fact that she is not in favor of forcing no contact doesn’t bode well for helping me in the current situation. Don’t know if it is worth going back, or if I should try to find another therapist. Which I’m sure my wife will take as me just shopping around for a therapist that agrees with me.


Try a new therapist, this one doesn't get it. Ask in advance if you can about the no contact. It is an absolute must.


----------



## Chaparral

She has come a long way. What reward have you given her. No one is going to go along with a plan where all the feedback(180) is negative. Are you sure you want to stay with your wife?


----------



## island_of_one

chapparal said:


> She has come a long way. What reward have you given her. No one is going to go along with a plan where all the feedback(180) is negative.


I have tried to provide encouragement when she has done something that has shown progress (putting OM momentos out of sight, started reading NJF). But, she still has a ways to go in order to meet me in a place where we can resolve issues based on how she has treated me (dishonesty, disloyalty). Getting to that point will require her to deal with painful topics (those topics which she wishes to simply put behind us). So, the question is how best to encourage this behavior? If I return to being nice, and provide positive rewards, will I be able to “nice” her into dealing with guilt and shame? I certainly couldn’t nice her out of the EA. An alternate approach is to make not dealing with those issues more uncomfortable than having to address them. This path could of course lead her to a plan b, where she chooses not to deal with me anymore. But, if she isn’t willing to make amends for the deceitful behavior, then we don’t have a future anyway. It is hard to predict what will motivate her at this point. It is also a question of timing. A hard line approach is only practical for a limited amount of time. If she is going to need 2-3 months to become willing to be forthcoming, a hard line approach will have prematurely forced a plan B. Perhaps there is a middle ground in there. 



chapparal said:


> Are you sure you want to stay with your wife?



I am not 100% sure right now. I do not yet know if she is willing to do what I need in order to make amends. From the perspective of honoring a commitment to marriage, or for the well-being of my kids, reconciling is a clear choice. From the perspective of what will provide the best life for me, I do not yet know. I do not see a great life for me with the current version of my wife. I _would_ want to be with the person I think she is _capable_ of becoming, but I don’t yet know if that person is who she wants to become…. or can become. I also don’t know if my views will change as I eliminate co-dependency and become more self-fulfilling. Maybe the grass is greener elsewhere viewpoint will evaporate for me. So, I am not forcing a decision from myself right away. I think it will be an ongoing process for a while.


----------



## Chaparral

One thing to consider is that you can tell any counselor that the marriage can be saved in your veiwpoint but you have certain, unconditional requirments and there will be no negotiating those items. Make a list. If the counselor disagrees fine. Explain to him/her that you have done a lot of research over the last months and you know for a fact that these should be acceptable in any marriage.

You should also see a counselor that has experience with PTSD.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> I don't think that not being familiar with NJF is damning for your MC. It gives you an opportunity to talk about it, especially I think the walls and windows concept.
> 
> Most of the material I've read also traces the causes of your situation to childhood issues. NMMNG, Janis Springs, whatever else I can't think of right off the top of my head. This ties in with "the BS bares no responsibility for this choice" because it was the disfunctional choice of a broken person. If you can (you = therapy process + proactive actions from both spouses) address and heal that pain that exists in the wayward, it eliminates the desire of the wayward to stray if presented the same situation in the future.


I am all for working on the root cause issues (related to childhood or otherwise), but those are long term, forward looking activities. As much or more for the self than the marriage. Perhaps this therapist is well suited for that…I don’t know. What I am concerned with is how to deal with the past two years. If MC#2 doesn’t really grasp what an EA does to a marriage or how it makes the BS behave, then we won’t be getting good short-term tactical guidance on how to start moving forward. If MC#2, like MC#1, validates my wife’s opinion that I overstepped reasonable bounds and that there isn’t a need to provide details on what happened, then we will make no progress.


----------



## SadandAngry

How are you doing island?


----------



## island_of_one

SadandAngry said:


> How are you doing island?


Thanks for asking! I have been doing all right. I have been meaning to post an update for a few days. There hasn’t been a lot of progress wrt to my wife. Our family took turns having the flu and that has severely limited time for self-exploration or working on marital things. We are still in a holding pattern (i.e. limbo) though I’m not sure my wife really gets that. I am still keeping myself at an emotional distance from her. Sort of a combination of 180 and a MMSL MAP (phase 4) where the intolerable behavior I am trying to influence is her lack of remorse for her actions and her inability to step up to rebuild trust. I am not giving any ILY’s (which has a big impact on her) and I am keeping myself somewhat detached (to allow for perspective to consider just my own needs and to keep me safe from more hurt). 

My wife and I basically skipped giving each other Xmas gifts this year. She did however, give me a handwritten journal where she attempts to address her actions with OM. I think she spent 3-4 hours writing in it. This is progress in and of itself. Unfortunately, we have not had a chance to discuss what she wrote. She got sick the day after Xmas and left (along with the kids) to visit her folks for a week. 

Here are some highlights from her letter/journal. (note that the portion below is written from her perspective, not mine).

- She starts off by saying she is making this big effort to delve into the past in order to pull me out of it, and how this represents all she has to give to try to meet my need to address the EA. First section discusses the pain from things getting worse after going NC (due to my 180). She thought NC should have been the big thing needed to start moving forward.

- Next section provides a timeline of how things happened from her perspective. How things escalated, some rationalizations on why she fought me, blamed my discovery and reading (and my “misinterpretation” ) of the early emails on activating her “fight” response, how she felt I couldn’t be right if I had to resort to spying on her, acknowledged that she loves OM (just completely differently from me, just as a friend, just like her other dear friends from that HS era), how she was angry for having to hide details such as frequency of Facetime chats, etc

- She did at least acknowledge that she previously didn’t think her friendship with OM should have anything to do with me, but now that she understands why I mean by EA she sees how does have everything to do with our marriage. 

- She closes by saying she needs me to choose to trust her, that the control measures (fyi- this now is limited to me blocking Facetime from her iPhone, iPad) make her feel humiliated 

It was a big effort for her, which I appreciate, but the overall effect was neutral at best. I don’t think she was fully forthcoming on why she did what she did (or when she knew she was out of bounds) or what her true feelings are for OM. She provided rationalizations for some decisions but mostly didn’t offer up that she now sees the error of her ways. She is at least giving up some of her shielding to protect herself, but she is still not getting the fact that she needs to actively do things to earn my trust. Making threats about me restricting a couple features disabled on her phone has the opposite effect. 

I interviewed another MC (male this time) that I think might work. He didn’t impress me initially (didn’t give a good definition of an EA or how to bust them up) but he sounded better as the interview went on. He acknowledged that sometimes you have to force NC and that an EA is every bit as damaging as a PA. He is familiar with HS/HN, 5LL, and NJF. He also said he took a 25hour CEU course based on NJF (or at least on Shirley’s Glass principles). I have to call back tomorrow to make an appointment.


----------



## Cdelta02

This is progress. The fact that she took time to write is good. What comes out of her writing is more that she doesn't really understand the damage done, or that she chooses not to. I didn't get the feeling that she doesn't want to because she doesn't want to R or that she has checked out. Your MC should help.


----------



## 3putt

island_of_one said:


> *- She closes by saying she needs me to choose to trust her, that the control measures (fyi- this now is limited to me blocking Facetime from her iPhone, iPad) make her feel humiliated *


Choose to trust her? How about she bust her ass to earn your trust again? If she's humiliated about having to be monitored, well then, she brought that humiliation on herself. Deal with it.

She's not the least bit remorseful right now and SUPER entitled still.

I'd actually ramp up this monitoring.


----------



## island_of_one

As for myself, I am feeling better, more confident, and more optimistic about my future. My workload at work is down, so I am cutting out overtime. This will give me some "free" time to work on myself and whatever else needs to be worked on. Right now, the family has been out of town for a few days which has allowed me to catch up on some reading (finished MMSL, which is great!) and have some alone time to think about things. It has been a good week. I have a lot of work to do on myself (some things easier than others), but I can already feel progress and see a path to having a much happier existence. As I have allowed myself to contemplate my needs wrt to long term fulfillment and marriage, I am uncertain how well my wife fits into me achieving the aforementioned happier existence. I can see a decent to pretty good marriage being a possibility if we can work things out, but it is hard to picture a great marriage and partnership. Honestly, if we didn’t have young kids (7, 10yo), I think we would both be gone already. 

In the early years (3 years of dating), we truly had deep affection and love for each other. I think this history basically carried us to until we had kids and still binds us together to some extent today (though the EA certainly put a huge dent in it!). I think we could regain a lot of affection for each other....but, I am pondering whether that will be enough to keep me from ultimately feeling like I settled. 

We are very compatible in a lot of ways but are very different in how we enjoy the world. There are several things that I am, or could be, passionate about which provide fulfillment (sports, exercise, competition, building things). My wife has no hobbies or passions or any actively used talent/skill. She is totally non-athletic and non-competitive. Fun for me is doing things and being challenged. Her fun is about hanging out enjoying conversation. I walk quickly while her pace is very slow (she often won’t keep up with my painfully slow pace). I am fairly driven and ambitious (though I am learning not always for the right reasons). She is a low productivity SAHM (I pay $150/month for a housekeeper to help clean). She has an occupational therapy license but doesn’t want to pursue being an OT (her initial job search recently was to be a $13/hr teacher’s assistant). She’s had a degree for 14 years and worked part-time for about 2-3 of those years (note that I acknowledge being an enabler of this). She is intelligent, but has not learned to cope with the world the way a person should (i.e. everything is hard). Me trying to spoil her has enabled this as well. 

I have also been thinking about my biggest emotional needs and the potential for them to be filled. Here are my top four (more or less in order) per HN/HN categories. 

Attractive spouse- Currently, I am 2-3 points above her in sex rank (MMSL terminology). She could even things up with 50+ pounds of weight loss. I think this will require her to take up some form of exercise as a hobby/passion. Theoretically possible, but a LOT of work. Right now, I’m guessing she is too far behind in sex rank and has given up trying to match mine (saw a reference to this somewhere in MMSL blog). 

Affection- Though missing right now, she could fill this need well if we can reconcile.

Sexual fulfillment- We have had a terrible sex life for most of the 19 years primarily due to physical issues she had (pain, consistent UTI’s). Her physical issues are pretty well resolved at this point, so there is a possibility of regaining a healthy sex life. She is actually more interested in it than I am at the moment (the EA and her appearance being downers for me). 

Recreational companionship- This one is tough. If we can find the time (and a place for the kids) there are activities that we can find that we both _enjoy_ (such as biking). But, none of these things represent a _passion_ for me (unless she turns into a long-distance runner or something). I am thinking that sacrificing recreational time for something enjoyable but not truly fulfilling will leave me with a hole in my life. Having kids, I doubt having enough time for parenting, work, quality with spouse, and a passionate hobby. My past hobbies have provided the needed spark in my life. My wife have never understood why she doesn't provide that sort of spark. 

So, my choice is pursuing a pretty good marriage and good environment for the kids vs. pursuing a _chance_ to find a partner to share marriage and recreational passions (or just the freedom to more fully pursue my passions). Really, there is no rush to decide quickly. I need to make my wife aware my desires and see how interested she is in trying to improve herself. The improvements she needs to make for herself would actually make her much more attractive to me. My honorable side (and father to my kids side) tells me I should give her time to see what she can become capable of. The side of me that has been dissatisfied for more than a decade is intrigued by the thought of a new start. Any stories from others that have gone through a similar situation?


----------



## island_of_one

Cdelta02 said:


> This is progress. The fact that she took time to write is good. What comes out of her writing is more that she doesn't really understand the damage done, or that she chooses not to. I didn't get the feeling that she doesn't want to because she doesn't want to R or that she has checked out. Your MC should help.


I agree. It certainly seems like she wants to R, and she has definitely not checked out. I think her actions in the EA were so counter to what she believes in that she is trying her damndest to avoid having to face the reality of what she has done. She has low self-esteem anyway, and I think she fears having to deal with the guilt/shame of an affair. I think her thought is that if we just pretend that it wasn't that big of a deal, then she can escape without a deathblow to her self-esteem. I don't think she realizes that she is ultimately going to have to deal with the affair guilt whether or not she and I deal with it directly.


----------



## island_of_one

3putt said:


> Choose to trust her? How about she bust her ass to earn your trust again? If she's humiliated about having to be monitored, well then, she brought that humiliation on herself. Deal with it.
> 
> She's not the least bit remorseful right now and SUPER entitled still.


I couldn't agree more. Her attitude is what is keeping us from moving forward. The 180 has forced her to make _some _progress, but she ain't there yet.


----------



## bfree

What I don't understand is why she is not falling all over herself right now in fear that you will leave her. She's a cheater, I assume she has lied, and she is overweight. I was going to tell you to keep running the MAP and she will hopefully come around but it sounds like she should be coming around now. You may have to create a crisis situation in order to get her head out of her a$$.


----------



## island_of_one

bfree said:


> What I don't understand is why she is not falling all over herself right now in fear that you will leave her. She's a cheater, I assume she has lied, and she is overweight. I was going to tell you to keep running the MAP and she will hopefully come around but it sounds like she should be coming around now. You may have to create a crisis situation in order to get her head out of her a$$.


Realistically, she is probably not that into me either...and likely hasn't been for a while. She is probably more worried about losing her convenient life and about her kids having to split homes than she is about losing me specifically. However, the first two things are probably enough to motivate it her. Her journal thing was a big step compared to how strongly she has fought to deny it was an EA. I doubt she would have done the journal if she didn't feel under a lot of pressure. 

She still clinging to her coping mechanisms. She rationalized to herself for so long that I think she is hesitant to let go of the excuses and face the facts...because she knows she can't bear the truth. Part of her rationalizations is that she is entitled to her own private world and she is convinced that she is being wronged by my actions to protect the marriage. And, she is resentful that I took away something very valuable to her, and I have not responded in a positive manner to her acquiescing to my NC demand. 

If I were to crank out a bunch of projects at home (which, I really need to do anyway), start showing her attention and affection, and just ignore the whole EA thing then I think she would pretty quickly start re-attaching to me. Of course, if I did all that, we still wouldn't be anywhere because I'd be carrying a lot of resentment and we would still be operating from the same faulty ways of relating to each other that we have always used.


----------



## bfree

island_of_one said:


> Realistically, she is probably not that into me either...and likely hasn't been for a while. She is probably more worried about losing her convenient life and about her kids having to split homes than she is about losing me specifically. However, the first two things are probably enough to motivate it her. Her journal thing was a big step compared to how strongly she has fought to deny it was an EA. I doubt she would have done the journal if she didn't feel under a lot of pressure.
> 
> She still clinging to her coping mechanisms. She rationalized to herself for so long that I think she is hesitant to let go of the excuses and face the facts...because she knows she can't bear the truth. Part of her rationalizations is that she is entitled to her own private world and she is convinced that she is being wronged by my actions to protect the marriage. And, she is resentful that I took away something very valuable to her, and I have not responded in a positive manner to her acquiescing to my NC demand.
> 
> If I were to crank out a bunch of projects at home (which, I really need to do anyway), start showing her attention and affection, and just ignore the whole EA thing then I think she would pretty quickly start re-attaching to me. Of course, if I did all that, we still wouldn't be anywhere because I'd be carrying a lot of resentment and we would still be operating from the same faulty ways of relating to each other that we have always used.


How would she respond if you simply told her that you realize that she is no longer in love with you as demonstrated by her EA and recent actions. So you have decided to set her free to live her own life and find out what makes her happy.


----------



## island_of_one

bfree said:


> How would she respond if you simply told her that you realize that she is no longer in love with you as demonstrated by her EA and recent actions. So you have decided to set her free to live her own life and find out what makes her happy.


Well, she will say that she does still love me. In her mind, I'm sure she believes this fully. Her bar for defining love is lower that mine, and she doesn't seem to stop believing she has love for someone very easily. She still had some form of deep love for OM 15 years after he unceremoniously stopped corresponding with her. 

All that being said, I do think the strength of her feelings for me are less than what she lets on to me. Her actions show this and her conversations with BF say this as well. I just think she doesn't want to admit the true level of reduced feelings to me. I know I am guilty of doing this in the past. There was a time ~3 years ago where she suggested we separate...for my benefit. She saw that I was unhappy (with life in general) and wondered if it would be better for me to be apart. I now wonder if she was wanting out and just wanted to have me be the one to leave. Perhaps, a question I should ask her.


----------



## 3putt

Well, all this kind of begs the question: Why did you get married in the first place?

I mean, what are you not doing now that you were doing then to get the two of you to the alter? Most people don't get married just to get married, so you both did something right for each other to get to the stage of marriage.

What changed? And why?


----------



## iheartlife

From your descriptions--I wonder how happy she is with herself. She sounds like someone who feels entitled to have the world flow her way, but as someone who used to be like that, I can say that this leads to great general unhappiness. Some people think the world revolves around them because they are very arrogant selfish people who believe they are the center of the universe--but that isn't true of all people who have entitlement issues.

Other people, and I was one of them, are always struggling with the fact that the world is so unfair and "bad" things happen constantly (objects break, traffic clogs the roads, it rains when it "ought" to be sunny). People like that fight against the "bad" and try to control it as much as they can, but it's (obviously) an enormous waste of time and energy and a source of depression and low self-esteem.

Volunteering or getting a job or taking a class seems to me to be a huge thing that she needs. Preferably something that requires working with people who are much less fortunate than she is--this could help draw her out of her very selfish frame of mind and make her more aware and grateful of all the good in life. In fact, I'd say she needs a "job" (volunteering or working) AND a short weekly class (learning a skill set to gain a new hobby or work skills).

My other recommendation would be for her to study mindfulness. Mindfulness involves appreciating the minute and fleeting things in life that are very meaningful or beautiful. She seems to be "seeking" a purpose in life (hence channeling so much energy into a relationship with a HS guy who lives far away)--and mindfulness imbues purposefulness to the mundane and routine. 

This book is a good start:
Mindfulness: An Eight-Week Plan for Finding Peace in a Frantic World: Mark Williams, Danny Penman, Jon Kabat-Zinn: 9781609618957: Amazon.com: Books

But again, more than anything--earning money at a job sounds like it could do her so much good; so what if it's just $13 an hour? As long as it doesn't take away from quality time with you, you're already paying for a housekeeper. I would imagine it could only help for her to have a boss who doesn't give a fig how she's feeling emotionally--they expect her to show up and do her job like anyone else.

But--I would say that the money goes into the marital pot. Too often such "jobs" turn into "mad money" for the stay-at-home spouse. So the chance of feeling united in contributing even in a small way to the marriage just turns into an isolating, "I don't need you" experience. So up front, I would discuss that, having the paycheck go straight to your joint account. This is a way of getting her to see how she can contribute to the marriage and the world in a meaningful way, not turning her more against you.


----------



## Saki

bfree said:


> What I don't understand is why she is not falling all over herself right now in fear that you will leave her. She's a cheater, I assume she has lied, and she is overweight. I was going to tell you to keep running the MAP and she will hopefully come around but it sounds like she should be coming around now. You may have to create a crisis situation in order to get her head out of her a$$.


It's probably the law of attraction.

What you believe is what the world hands to you.

For some time now, she's probably believed the marriage is over and IOO will leave her. Her self fulfilling prophecy is on the verge of coming true. 

She'll look back and her attitude will be thus: "see it's just like I told you, he was going to leave me no matter what I did" She'll always hold the position of being "right" and feel as if she was always powerless to prevent this from happening.

Sadly she'll likely never understand the concept of self responsiblity and will never understand the role her CHOICES play into the outcome.

IOO, I strongly caution you with respect to HNHN. For people who are stronly codependent, strongly fit the mold of Mr Nice Guy as defined by Robert Glover in NMMNG, the recreational companionship need as discribed by HNHN is simply a path back to Mr Nice Guy land.

Before you draw any conclusions, carefully consider your personal view of what marriage should be. It may not be CONSTANT companionship, it may not be sharing recreational activities, it may not be playing on equal employment fields. 

What I'm saying is, you describe how her idea of fun isn't the same as your idea of fun. That does not necessarily mean you cannot have a grossly sucessful marriage together.

Some of your posts, and certainly some of the follow up posts of others, are starting to get into "fix it" land. Attempting to fix your wife, ie control her. Thats codependent, and thats Mr Nice Guy lang stuff.

Really, you need acceptance. Your wife is who she is. Focus on you. Provide her the space and freedom she needs to get through this and fix herself and her marriage in her own way. This will require grace and patience on your part. There are many fine lines you must walk. But it's part of being all the way in.

An example - full transparency. If your wife provides you full transparency, you can OBSERVE her actions. If you tell her "you cannot use facetime", that is controlling. 

Your statement with regards to contact with the OM is framed like this "this marriage will not work if you contact the OM. If you ever contact him again, the consequence is I will be leaving you". You aren't exactly trying to control her, you are saying "If IOO observes behavior A, IOO will do B". She is than free to make her own choice, but she is also explicately aware of what the consequences are.

Anyway, my point is be very aware of when you are approaching or crossing the line of controlling behavior. And keep working on yourself so you are capable of objective observation of her behavior w/o interpretting it as rejection of you.


----------



## bfree

island_of_one said:


> Well, she will say that she does still love me. In her mind, I'm sure she believes this fully. Her bar for defining love is lower that mine, and she doesn't seem to stop believing she has love for someone very easily. She still had some form of deep love for OM 15 years after he unceremoniously stopped corresponding with her.
> 
> All that being said, I do think the strength of her feelings for me are less than what she lets on to me. Her actions show this and her conversations with BF say this as well. I just think she doesn't want to admit the true level of reduced feelings to me. I know I am guilty of doing this in the past. There was a time ~3 years ago where she suggested we separate...for my benefit. She saw that I was unhappy (with life in general) and wondered if it would be better for me to be apart. I now wonder if she was wanting out and just wanted to have me be the one to leave. Perhaps, a question I should ask her.


When you say you're running the MAP does that mean a change in attitude as well? Are you being more forceful with her, not taking anything less than what you want or need, leading the relationship, living your life and inviting her into it rather than trying to wedge yourself into hers? If you are in good shape and your SR is higher than hers maybe its time to start demanding what you expect out of the marriage instead of allowing her to foce feed you the scraps she sees fit to dole out?


----------



## bfree

Saki said:


> It's probably the law of attraction.
> 
> What you believe is what the world hands to you.
> 
> For some time now, she's probably believed the marriage is over and IOO will leave her. Her self fulfilling prophecy is on the verge of coming true.
> 
> She'll look back and her attitude will be thus: "see it's just like I told you, he was going to leave me no matter what I did" She'll always hold the position of being "right" and feel as if she was always powerless to prevent this from happening.
> 
> Sadly she'll likely never understand the concept of self responsiblity and will never understand the role her CHOICES play into the outcome.
> 
> IOO, I strongly caution you with respect to HNHN. For people who are stronly codependent, strongly fit the mold of Mr Nice Guy as defined by Robert Glover in NMMNG, the recreational companionship need as discribed by HNHN is simply a path back to Mr Nice Guy land.
> 
> Before you draw any conclusions, carefully consider your personal view of what marriage should be. It may not be CONSTANT companionship, it may not be sharing recreational activities, it may not be playing on equal employment fields.
> 
> What I'm saying is, you describe how her idea of fun isn't the same as your idea of fun. That does not necessarily mean you cannot have a grossly sucessful marriage together.
> 
> Some of your posts, and certainly some of the follow up posts of others, are starting to get into "fix it" land. Attempting to fix your wife, ie control her. Thats codependent, and thats Mr Nice Guy lang stuff.
> 
> Really, you need acceptance. Your wife is who she is. Focus on you. Provide her the space and freedom she needs to get through this and fix herself and her marriage in her own way. This will require grace and patience on your part. There are many fine lines you must walk. But it's part of being all the way in.
> 
> An example - full transparency. If your wife provides you full transparency, you can OBSERVE her actions. If you tell her "you cannot use facetime", that is controlling.
> 
> Your statement with regards to contact with the OM is framed like this "this marriage will not work if you contact the OM. If you ever contact him again, the consequence is I will be leaving you". You aren't exactly trying to control her, you are saying "If IOO observes behavior A, IOO will do B". She is than free to make her own choice, but she is also explicately aware of what the consequences are.
> 
> Anyway, my point is be very aware of when you are approaching or crossing the line of controlling behavior. And keep working on yourself so you are capable of objective observation of her behavior w/o interpretting it as rejection of you.


So then can you please explain your idea of boundaries vs. your idea of control? If she had an EA via Facetime then doesn't he have the right and the duty to tell her no more Facetime as a consequence of reconciliation?


----------



## Saki

bfree said:


> living your life and inviting her into it rather than trying to wedge yourself into hers?


Frankly I think you explained it pretty well yourself.

Saying "no more facetime" would be an example of wedging yourself into her life. Furthermore, it's misdirected. Facetime isn't the problem, after all. Contact with the OM is. Saying "if your contact with the OM continues, I will leave you" is much closer to living your own life and inviting her into it. 

"hey I'm doing my thing over here. My thing dosent involve you contacting the OM. If you want to join me while I do my thing, you can. In fact, my thing is so interesting that you won't be thinking about contacting some other guy! You can do your own thing over there too. Thats fine. Remember, your thing involves foresaking all others etc etc. But...your thing is probably not as fun as what I'm doing!"

When dealing with someone fully in the affair fog, all bets are off. You have to be controlling. The cheating spouse is incapable of making non-destructive decisions.

IOO (well more accurately, his wife...) appears to be transitioning out of that phase. The affair appears to be squashed. IOO needs to observe (monitor) but no longer direct. 

On the other hand, he does have a reasonable ability to draw certain lines or consequences. Facetime was merely an example I used. It's of course up to him whether that's something that should be off limits or not. Further confusing the point is the fact that Facetime may be a trigger for him. Again, Facetime may have been a bad example to use.

PS and to plainly state it, boundries are not for controlling other people. They are for controlling your own life. They are about what you will do, they are not attempts to force other people into specific behavior.


----------



## bfree

Saki said:


> Frankly I think you explained it pretty well yourself.
> 
> Saying "no more facetime" would be an example of wedging yourself into her life. Furthermore, it's misdirected. Facetime isn't the problem, after all. Contact with the OM is. Saying "if your contact with the OM continues, I will leave you" is much closer to living your own life and inviting her into it.
> 
> "hey I'm doing my thing over here. My thing dosent involve you contacting the OM. If you want to join me while I do my thing, you can. In fact, my thing is so interesting that you won't be thinking about contacting some other guy! You can do your own thing over there too. Thats fine. Remember, your thing involves foresaking all others etc etc. But...your thing is probably not as fun as what I'm doing!"
> 
> When dealing with someone fully in the affair fog, all bets are off. You have to be controlling. The cheating spouse is incapable of making non-destructive decisions.
> 
> IOO (well more accurately, his wife...) appears to be transitioning out of that phase. The affair appears to be squashed. IOO needs to observe (monitor) but no longer direct.
> 
> On the other hand, he does have a reasonable ability to draw certain lines or consequences. Facetime was merely an example I used. It's of course up to him whether that's something that should be off limits or not. Further confusing the point is the fact that Facetime may be a trigger for him. Again, Facetime may have been a bad example to use.
> 
> PS and to plainly state it, boundries are not for controlling other people. They are for controlling your own life. They are about what you will do, they are not attempts to force other people into specific behavior.


All of that is true. I just wanted to make sure you weren't suggesting that he "just get over it" because his wife may have a self defeatist attitude. Not saying you said that just wanted to clarify. If she is truly out of the fog then setting his boundaries and resulting consequences is exactly the correct course. I wonder if his wife is really out of the fog yet though based on his description of her behavior. It sounds more to me like she checked out of the marriage a while ago and is just waiting for him to pull the plug. I think maybe that is why she had an affair. She at one time suggested a separation for his own good. Maybe when he didn't take her up on it she decided to force the issue by cheating on him. This is why I suggested he needs to change the dynamics of the marriage. He needs to create his version of the marriage and his version of their life together. Its then up to her to join him or leave. People often hate to be left behind so I'm truly hoping she decides to follow his lead. But he has to be the leader deserving of being followed. That is why I suggested what I did.


----------



## island_of_one

Didn’t have much time for posting today. I’ll try to answer questions and comments efficiently…and all in one post. I apologize for jumping around a bit and if I missed any questions. 

After further reflection, I’ll refine the list of my needs. What I really need in a marriage is a partner that: a) I’m attracted to, b) provides a fair amount of affection, preferably through cheerfulness and physical touch, c) a healthy sex life, and d) enthusiastically supports my recreational pursuits (whether with me or as a bystander). Right now, I get 0/4. When we dated (for 3 years, as teenagers), I received all four in abundance and we had the tag of “perfect couple.” We bought into our worlds revolving around each other. After being married but before kids (9 years), I had 2.5/4; (b) and (d) consistently, (a) half of the time, and (c) not so much. Since kids it has declined steadily from 2.5 toward 0. She is a good mom, but she is always stressed about dealing with something with the kids resulting in her rarely being cheerful at home. She has tried to support my own activities but usually ends up being jealous (even when I take time with the kids). So, it has been hard over the years to enjoy doing my own thing with a jealous wife, increasing responsibilities with work, and taking time for the kids. Obviously, my history was been to put others’ needs ahead of my own .

I agree that my wife doesn’t have to be my constant companion. It would just be easier to promote health of marriage and of self if we liked doing the same things. Me doing my thing independently won’t help meet her needs, so she’ll need to fill her own needs. Which she has never managed to do previously. Well, except for the EA. :scratchhead:

I don’t think my wife thinks the *world* should revolve around her- just that *I* should. She feels that she should be my passion- not any of the others activities that I have done that have given me a twinkle in my eyes. She is into the Twilight series and idealizes the way Edward treats Bella (i.e. like a princess). This is where she feels entitled- to have a husband focused on her as the center of his world. I don't know if she can accept that that is not what I am signing up for. I think she would benefit greatly from getting a job, hobby, or something to become a contributing member of society and to provide some interaction with other people. My comment on seeking the low paying job was just to show lack of ambition. Of course, we pay to keep up her continuing education to keep her therapy license (and still paying a college loan), so it would be nice to get some return on that investment. In any case, any job would be better than just staying at home full time. She is on year 3 of having both kids in school full-time and hasn’t accomplished a lot for herself. BTW, she has recently read Kabat-Zinn’s “Wherever You Go, There You Are.” 

So, what I think I need to do to start is tell my wife the vision of the marriage that I am pursuing and ask if she is interested in being the partner that I need- and willing to start over with the dynamics of how we relate to each other. Even if she interested, I have doubts about her ability to be 4/4 again. I suspect she doubts this too. Thus, I have not yet decided whether I am all in.... or not. I really am not trying to fix my wife. I think she needs to fix herself for her sake. If she does, she might end up being a good partner again. But it is up to her if she is willing to work on herself. If I go forward with her, I will certainly give her the support to try. 

The restrictions on her phone are clearly controlling, but they came about due to EA fog. I am not intending to have controls in place for much longer. While she hasn’t been remorseful or grasped that she needs to work on rebuilding trust, I have not seen any signs of contact with OM. So far, it is looking like the affair has been squashed. Facetime is a special case as the history is easily erased so there is no easy way to monitor it short of constant VAR’s in the house (which I don’t want to continue) or jailbreak/spyware her phone. She really has had little use for FT other than OM. And it is a somewhat of a trigger for me. 

Right now, my changes in behavior are more a change in attitude toward myself and toward her. Working in time for my own activities is a work in progress (time challenged and poor time management in large part due to NMMNG issues). It sure has been easier this week while the family was gone. It has been the most relaxed I have been in a while.


----------



## iheartlife

island_of_one said:


> I agree that my wife doesn’t have to be my constant companion. It would just be easier to promote health of marriage and of self if we liked doing the same things. Me doing my thing independently won’t help meet her needs, so she’ll need to fill her own needs. Which she has never managed to do previously. Well, except for the EA. :scratchhead:


It would be easier, but to tell you the truth, I don't think it's as common as you may believe. Sure, couples may have some enthusiastic shared hobbies, like cheering for the same sports team, or both runners, etc. But many others don't. I think the couples that I know have developed joint activities / hobbies that they both like and that post-date the marriage--they identified something to do together that they both enjoy. It could be as simple as taking SLOW evening walks that are not for exercise but for talking. Or taking turns picking out a movie in the theaters or a restaurant and going on a date night.

My husband and I share pretty much zero hobbies. He is into running (runs faster than I do). I am into photography and making things (sewing, knitting, embroidery) and cooking. We both like reading but not the same kinds of books. The truth is, we have stuff to talk about because we have our separate hobbies and then we get together. I also admit to staying very much up on current events and some types of popular culture and that is a big topic of conversation.



> I don’t think my wife thinks the *world* should revolve around her- just that *I* should. She feels that she should be my passion- not any of the others activities that I have done that have given me a twinkle in my eyes. She is into the Twilight series and idealizes the way Edward treats Bella (i.e. like a princess). This is where she feels entitled- to have a husband focused on her as the center of his world. I don't know if she can accept that that is not what I am signing up for.


 Who knows, you might be her "Edward" if she was worth worshiping. Not to be mean, but what does she do to keep herself interesting? Anything that she did for others outside of herself would accomplish this. Finding a "passion."



> My comment on seeking the low paying job was just to show lack of ambition. Of course, we pay to keep up her continuing education to keep her therapy license (and still paying a college loan), so it would be nice to get some return on that investment. In any case, any job would be better than just staying at home full time.


 I agree, however low-paying, a job that represents a net gain in JOINT income will help. Has she explored non-traditional ways of using her therapy education? Churches and schools, etc. need counselors. Churches would even appreciate someone who volunteered to assist them. If she re-thought what it means to be a therapist--maybe she doesn't want office hours or insurance paperwork, but there are other options out there.



> BTW, she has recently read Kabat-Zinn’s “Wherever You Go, There You Are.”


Eh, looking at some of the reviews I'm not sure that's the best book on the subject. Here's one that might peak her interest: Buddhism for Mothers: A Calm Approach to Caring for Yourself and Your Children: Sarah Napthali: 9781742373775: Amazon.com: Books 

I am not a buddhist and maybe that title will turn you / her off, but it's basically the same concepts (mindfulness). Mindfulness is a core ideal in certain strains of buddhism, but it's a non-religion specific concept. It's used, for example, by the US military to help people with PTSD. I also really like the 8-week mindfulness book I mentioned in my other post, as well as the book in my sig (Turning the Mind into an Ally).

The point of these books isn't so much learning meditation (which is a part of mindfulness). It's more about figuring out that suffering is a part of life, it isn't going away, EVER, and so you better have good coping skills for dealing with it. The truth is, in the western world, human beings are not in imminent danger of death or extreme pain. The point is, her biggest, darkest problem is probably boredom--think about that for a minute. Stressing out over nothing, because she has nothing to stress about. What a way to live and die. (I am the type of person who doesn't have regrets--but I do wonder how different my life would have been if I'd learned this sooner.) 

So much of what you've typed about her sounds like I used to be--stressing about stuff with the kids so much that she doesn't have time for you. Do your kids have such extremely serious issues that they are worth that much stress?


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> Me doing my thing independently won’t help meet her needs, so she’ll need to fill her own needs. Which she has never managed to do previously. Well, except for the EA. :scratchhead


But it does help meet her needs.

You must take care of yourself before you can take care of your relationship. 

In order to be genuinely caring and loving (not caretaking and controlling), inner peace and acceptance of your self are necessary.

So whatever you can do to gain inner peace and acceptance, to take care of yourself, makes you a more effective partner.

So in order for you to meet her needs, an necessary prerequisite is taking care of yourself, being centered, making yourself a priority.

This is why the NG crap is soooooooooo toxic. You THINK you are taking care of your wife and your marriage, but all you are doing is putting up obsticals to a true intimate relationship!


----------



## carmen ohio

Dear i_o_o,

You're in such a better place than you were only a month ago that it is remarkable.

I absolutely agree that you should sit your wife down when she returns and tell her what you're thinking. Your thought of asking her "if she is interested in being the partner that [you] need" would be a great way to broach the subject.

My only suggestion is that you think carefully beforehand about a few things. If she agrees to try and makes a real effort, how long are you are prepared to give her to show significant progress and, if she does make a lot of improvement but only achieves, say, 2.5/4.0, you are prepared to stay with her?

I think it's important for you to know the answer to these questions, whether you share them with her or not but, eventually, I think you will have to tell her, too. It's not the same as deciding if you're "all in or not" -- that's a question that likely you won't be able to answer for quite some time -- but rather what it will take for you to be "all in."

Good luck.


----------



## Saki

Oh and your score concept reminded me of this post:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...33622-what-counselor-will-never-tell-you.html

The bit about "good enough" marriages.

I was standing where you were, if you recall, almost exactly a year ago. I had high ambitions of a perfect marriage too, and wouldn't accept anything less.

My stance on that has softened considerably. Life is full of compromises. 

I don't get to go to the gym as much as I like. I shoot for good enough. I don't put work into my career as much as possible. Good enough is what I shoot for. I don't do all the things with my kids that I'd like. Again, I'm headed for good enough. I'm not the perfect husband....just trying to be good enough.


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> It would be easier, but to tell you the truth, I don't think it's as common as you may believe.


I am perfectly OK with the two of us having separate hobbies. We’ll see if she can handle that. WRT to HN/HN, Harley recommends 15 hours/week devoted to time devoted to meeting needs. I have yet to figure out where to get that many hours without kids around. In any case, trying to squeeze in more quality together is a lot easier if you do the same activities. In the end, I guess it is the balance between having enough time for yourself and enough time for the marriage to be healthy. 

You mentioned having enough to talk about. Well, we struggle in this area. I am not one that likes to sit around and talk a lot. I'd rather be doing something. In the evenings after work, I am especially not chatty. She's the one that likes to talk, but even she has a hard time coming up with things to talk about. Well, unless we want to talk about all of the latest things she has thought about that we are doing wrong, that need to be done (by me), or need to be decided (by me). For some reason, I get tense when I expect to have an extended time alone with her. 




iheartlife said:


> Who knows, you might be her "Edward" if she was worth worshiping.Not to be mean, but what does she do to keep herself interesting?


Nothing.... unless you consider sleeping a lot to be interesting. :sleeping:




iheartlife said:


> I agree, however low-paying, a job that represents a net gain in JOINT income will help. Has she explored non-traditional ways of using her therapy education?


No. She has pondered from time to time but not has never seriously looked into them. From when she worked last (about 8 years ago), she liked the therapy side but struggled with the paperwork aspect. As previously discussed, she needs to do something outside in the real world for her own self esteem. 




iheartlife said:


> The point of these books isn't so much learning meditation (which is a part of mindfulness). It's more about figuring out that suffering is a part of life, it isn't going away, EVER, and so you better have good coping skills for dealing with it. The truth is, in the western world, human beings are not in imminent danger of death or extreme pain. The point is, her biggest, darkest problem is probably boredom--think about that for a minute. Stressing out over nothing, because she has nothing to stress about. What a way to live and die.


I will take a look a closer look at the book suggestions. I might pick one that appeals to me and then see if she is interested as well. She is definitely open to the mindfulness concept. 




iheartlife said:


> So much of what you've typed about her sounds like I used to be--stressing about stuff with the kids so much that she doesn't have time for you. Do your kids have such extremely serious issues that they are worth that much stress?


Our kids are great and are generally very well behaved. My son does get in trouble frequently for hitting his sister, and they are both difficult to get to do chores/practice piano, etc- but these are all very normal things for kids their age. So, they should not be a cause for stressed parenting. But, my wife is always harping on them about something and just isn't her naturally cheerful self at home (like... ever). Kids need defined and consistent boundaries and some sense of discipline, but they do not really get these from my wife. They would also benefit from some sort of routine so it is not pulling teeth to get them to do daily activities. My wife is not a problem solver, so any issues end up getting adding to my (endless) queue of things to figure out.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> You must take care of yourself before you can take care of your relationship. In order to be genuinely caring and loving (not caretaking and controlling), inner peace and acceptance of your self are necessary.So whatever you can do to gain inner peace and acceptance, to take care of yourself, makes you a more effective partner.So in order for you to meet her needs, an necessary prerequisite is taking care of yourself, being centered, making yourself a priority.


For me, my focus is to focus on working on myself….regardless of what happens with the marriage. As you said, the marriage won’t reach a good place without self improvement. I also feel my wife needs to focus her energies on her issues. I do not know if she sees it that way, or is even willing to put in that sort of effort. 



Saki said:


> Oh and your score concept reminded me of this post:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...33622-what-counselor-will-never-tell-you.html
> 
> The bit about "good enough" marriages.
> 
> I was standing where you were, if you recall, almost exactly a year ago. I had high ambitions of a perfect marriage too, and wouldn't accept anything less.
> 
> My stance on that has softened considerably. Life is full of compromises.


Good enough….I must admit that that phrase was not really in my vocabulary for most of my life. One of the ways that NG syndrome manifested in me was a form of perfectionism (flaws and mistakes aren’t allowed, right? ). I might not shoot for perfect, but I would set the bar very high for everything I did. This mindset does help make me very good at some things, but mostly setting the bar so high is just a quick way to set one up for disappointment. And since I did that for all aspects of my life, life (i.e. myself) became one big dissatisfaction. I am working to make this way of thinking a part of my past. 

Back to the original topic, I read through the thread you linked. I think there is something to a relationship being good enough. Perhaps aim for somewhat ideal and happily settle for at least good. But, mediocre isn’t on my radar right now. Has to better than that. 

One of the factors in the list you linked is respect. It reminded me that I recently realized that I have lost a lot of respect for my wife. I had not thought of it in these terms before, but I think that is the case. I don’t think my wife and I will get too far until we learn to respect each other again. I haven’t figured out that part of the plan just yet.


----------



## island_of_one

carmen ohio said:


> Dear i_o_o,
> 
> You're in such a better place than you were only a month ago that it is remarkable.
> 
> I absolutely agree that you should sit your wife down when she returns and tell her what you're thinking. Your thought of asking her "if she is interested in being the partner that [you] need" would be a great way to broach the subject.
> 
> My only suggestion is that you think carefully beforehand about a few things. If she agrees to try and makes a real effort, how long are you are prepared to give her to show significant progress and, if she does make a lot of improvement but only achieves, say, 2.5/4.0, you are prepared to stay with her?
> 
> I think it's important for you to know the answer to these questions, whether you share them with her or not but, eventually, I think you will have to tell her, too. It's not the same as deciding if you're "all in or not" -- that's a question that likely you won't be able to answer for quite some time -- but rather what it will take for you to be "all in."
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks for the encouragement. I am generally very good at digesting and applying new information, but I just never had the right info (NMMNG, MMSL, etc) to dive into until I came here. So, thanks to everyone for the advice (even when very direct) and pointing me in the right directions. 

During the week off from the family, I was able to reset myself to some degree. The deeply engrained anxiety responses will take a while to resolve, but I am feeling optimistic about life in general for the first time in a good while. I find myself having self-talk such as: why the f--- should I care he/she thinks, that doesn’t matter, that’s not my problem, etc. I am trying to maintain that positive attitude and good mood even now that my wife is back home. Not easy so far, but I'm hanging in there.

Good point on having to consider a time frame and a how much is good enough. I will give that some thought. I suppose my answers will likely change over time as I become more self-validating and as I am getting needs met. For example, maybe more attractive isn’t so important if the sex life is good.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> I am perfectly OK with the two of us having separate hobbies. We’ll see if she can handle that. WRT to HN/HN, Harley recommends 15 hours/week devoted to time devoted to meeting needs.


For people coming from the NG background, that recommendation is a 1 way ticket back to NG land.

Don't get hung up on trying to hit that number.


----------



## bfree

Saki said:


> For people coming from the NG background, that recommendation is a 1 way ticket back to NG land.
> 
> Don't get hung up on trying to hit that number.


I agree. My attitude is that I am worth being with so I do my thing. If she wants to ride along great. If not, I do it anyway. Since she hates to be left behind we almost always do things together. I do throw her a bone once in a while and do what she wants but not too often.


----------



## iheartlife

I disagree very strongly on the issue of how much time you spend together.

The issue isn't the amount of time, it's how you use that time.

If you use that time to sit down together and shine her shoes, well, that will get you some conversation time, but you will be undermining it by playing the "nice guy" who lives to serve her.

Spending quality time together is the whole point of a marriage. What I find tragic is that island has reached a point where he's openly saying he dreads spending time with her. What's the point of being married, then?

In the Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work (by John Gottman) he has a list of something like 50+ questions to ask your spouse in order to get to know them better. The idea is to generate conversation topics.

15 hours is not that hard to achieve. You might not be able to hit it every week, but this is how I hit it and we have two kids: 

1. dinner alone after the kids are in bed most nights--if your kids are older, just consign them to their rooms from 8 pm on. If you haven't done this before--well, you're the parents, create a new rule.

2. lunch with my husband at his work once every 1 to 2 weeks.

3. real date night, once every 1 to 2 weeks, with a babysitter, to go out to dinner, etc.

4. running errands together on weekends when it's feasible (can be hard).

SHE DOESN'T HAVE A JOB, AND YOUR FAMILY IS IN GOOD HEALTH, so to me, I'm very sorry, but I find the idea that you can't eke out 10 hours a week alone together to be pretty ridiculous. Here's an example: go for an evening walk with the kids on bikes. That will allow them to ride ahead of you and circle back, but give you privacy to talk.

If you want to spend time with someone, you'll figure out a way.

If you don't want to actually be with her alone, then it seems to me you're wasting everybody's time.


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> I disagree very strongly on the issue of how much time you spend together. The issue isn't the amount of time, it's how you use that time.
> 
> Spending quality time together is the whole point of a marriage. What I find tragic is that island has reached a point where he's openly saying he dreads spending time with her. What's the point of being married, then?


To clarify, I do enjoy spending time with my wife (though things are awkward at the moment due to the aftermath of ending the EA and my 180). Activities where we are doing something (bowling, ziplining, etc) or where we are doing nothing (watching movies/TV) are good. I also read a book to her for 20-30min before bed. I just don’t enjoy having 1 on 1 time just for talking. We used to enjoy talking years ago. Somewhere along the way she started talking more and more about what needs to be done and needs to be decided. This occurred as my ability to get things went down (kids, more commitment at work, etc). Eventually, I think I started associating stress with talking to her. This is fixable if we are both willing to work on it. 

I also believe in wanting to spend time with your spouse. I don’t want to settle for a relationship where we are house/parenting partners, occasionally due stuff together, and have sex. I want a closer connection than that. Ten hours a week is achievable though I see 15 as being rather difficult with our kids still being fairly young. It is really up to us to see how much time is needed to regain and maintain a connection. My comments on wanting to have a wife that shares common interests is that between work and coaching my kids’ sports teams it is becomes very difficult to find a reasonable amount of quality time with a spouse and separately pursue my own passions. Recreational passions don’t tend to be just 1-2 hour/week sort of things…at least not for me. Being able to multi-task (quality time + passionate pursuits) just makes it easier. I do have issues with time management and procrastination, so the more I can improve myself in these areas the easier it will be. I am also working to reduce my work hours, so I’ll have more time available to work on myself and things at home.


----------



## island_of_one

Here are some updates from the last few days: 

Friday afternoon
Talked for an hour before getting the kids from school. I gave my thoughts about comments from her journal and then gave my list of what I needed a wife to be in the marriage I am pursuing. Funny how these conversations never go anywhere close to how I expect. My list of needs in the marriage sounded to her like this: “I’m fat. I don’t give enough affection. We don’t have a sex life. I don’t support his activities.” In hindsight, perhaps I should have expected her to take it defensively. Of course, given the battle we’ve had for 1-1/2 years, she has grown to take everything defensively. 

Friday evening
After the kids were bed, we talked for a while again. This time, it was her turn to share her thoughts on what I said. The following is her perspective. The iPhone restrictions go beyond just features being turned off. She has to calculate how every action she takes will be interpreted/judged. This causes her a lot of stress. Every time she thinks of this, she feels beaten down…and is also reminded of OM. She feels like she is being judged on whether she is worthy of being loved. This is the first time she has had to deal with not knowing if she is loved or not. Feels she can’t step up to meet my needs in the current environment. Needs love to be there now in order for her to be able to move forward. She acknowledged that it is clear that I’m pursuing a good marriage whether it is with her or otherwise. What she needs in a relationship is to be loved and cherished. To know that I am in 100%. She is very hurt by the recent lack of affection/love and my uncertainty on whether I’m all in with her. 

Sat night
She couldn’t sleep and was up half the night. She spent most of that time writing me a long letter. It appears that she is actually *starting to get it*. Her “epiphany” was that it finally occurred to her that she was, in fact, getting basic emotional needs filled by OM (attention, feeling cherished, entertainment) and that it felt so good that she couldn’t bring herself to stop even when I protested. For a variety reasons, she just never saw it this way before. We haven’t talked in person about her letter yet. I am curious to see her how her demeanor and attitude is when talking about it. On paper, this seems to be a huge step. We’ll see…


----------



## island_of_one

A few other thoughts: 

The “180” that I’ve been executing hasn’t been exactly according to plan. She views my behavior as withholding affection, though that was never my intention. The intent was to protect myself and to provide motivation for her to deal with EA. My version of 180 has definitely done damage to the relationship. At this point, I think she is far more hurt than being motivated to step up to not lose me. It will take her a while to get over the pain she’s had since giving up OM. However, the 180 has successfully achieved a few purposes. She has been working to figure out the EA- why it happened and that it truly was an affair. I don’t know that she would have gotten this far if I had been actively working on R. From my perspective, the detachment as gotten me to a place where I’m not hurting anymore and where I can give up the relationship if that’s what it comes to. It has also improved my ability to decide what I think is right without fear of her reaction. In any case, we can recover from the 180 where we would not have recovered from an unresolved dispute over the EA. 

However, I almost did too good of a job detaching. It became easy to focus on what she was/is that is not ideal for me. As I prepared myself for thoughts of life without her, I started looking around and it was also easy to convince myself that there are lots of better options out there. In a fantasy world, these other options would solve a lot of my dissatisfactions in marriage. I am having to remind myself that life as a divorced parent is very far from a fantasy world and it is foolish to think things will be rosy even if I find someone who is a more ideal partner for me. I still struggle with accepting things as good enough. My wife is certainly _capable _of being a “good enough” spouse by any reasonable expectation. It is just very ingrained in me to that good enough is not actually good enough…that I need something better. My conscious self just has to finish convincing my sub-conscious self. Alas, I am a work in progress…

I think that “all in” has two meanings, or comes in two stages at least. I’ll use the grass is greener analogy. The first is whether one is “all in” in trying to reconcile. This means fully committing to water the grass where you are. No guarantee that it will grow, but you’re doing everything you can to make it happen. The second stage would be after some period of time where the grass has grown enough, or has grown at a sufficient rate, to say that the grass is permanent again. The fence around the grass can become a really big, permanent wall. For me, I am close to being back on track to be all in to try for R. I won’t know on the second stage for a while. 

I’ll refine my top 4 needs a bit. WRT to an attractive spouse, I think that it can be physical attraction or simply attraction as a person. For example, someone who has interesting skills, unique traits, etc can create an attraction beyond that of physical appearance. Basically, if you do something to make yourself interesting, well, it makes you more interesting to be around. So, if my wife doesn’t quite manage to regain her full physical potential through weight loss/fitness, she could make up for that by being more attractive as an interesting person to be around. Don’t know if she can do either, but it is a more flexible way of defining expectations. Realistically, I need to work on being more interesting to her as well. While I have a definite edge in physical appearance compared to OM, I think my wife was very attracted to him as a person.


----------



## Chaparral

The 180 is to prepare yourself for divorce. Not for sending any kind of message to your spouse. You do not do the 180 on someone you are trying to reconcile with.

The 180 is recommended way to often lately. It always used to come eith a warning.


----------



## 3putt

chapparal said:


> The 180 is to prepare yourself for divorce. Not for sending any kind of message to your spouse. You do not do the 180 on someone you are trying to reconcile with.
> 
> The 180 is recommended way to often lately. It always used to come eith a warning.


Couldn't agree more. If the goal is reconciliation, then Dr. Harley's Plan A is the way to go. The carrot and the stick.


----------



## SadandAngry

Does she get the betrayal aspect of the EA yet?

You sound close to the point where you are going to have to make a choice. To go all in, and be vulnerable to the person that hurt you, or not. If not. then it's better for both of you to move on. You know you can now, and while it might not be easy, you can make a life with out her. So the question is, would you rather have her in your life, or not. She has to make the same choice regarding you.


----------



## Saki

chapparal said:


> The 180 is to prepare yourself for divorce. Not for sending any kind of message to your spouse. You do not do the 180 on someone you are trying to reconcile with.
> 
> The 180 is recommended way to often lately. It always used to come eith a warning.


Could not disagree more. The 180 is for emotional empowerment, and is given to people who are being betrayed at a time when they really need emotional empowerment.

Look at the 180.

Now compare it to MMSL, NMMNG, all the other strategies discussed for men being the leader in marriage and getting the kind of marriage a man wants.

There are only 2 or 3 points from the 180 that are not ALSO covered by MMSL and company.

Emotional empowerment is appropriate at all times in all places.


----------



## Chaparral

Saki said:


> Could not disagree more. The 180 is for emotional empowerment, and is given to people who are being betrayed at a time when they really need emotional empowerment.
> 
> Look at the 180.
> 
> Now compare it to MMSL, NMMNG, all the other strategies discussed for men being the leader in marriage and getting the kind of marriage a man wants.
> 
> There are only 2 or 3 points from the 180 that are not ALSO covered by MMSL and company.
> 
> Emotional empowerment is appropriate at all times in all places.


The person who wrote disagrees with you. It also depends on the personality of the wayward spouse. Seeing someone do the 180 can make a person give up. Another type may be inclined to fight back and 180 themselves. The only time the 180 serves to reinforce the marriage is if it makes the WS jealous and they can't handle the BS going off on their own.

BTW, the 180 is copyrighted and cannot be posted.


----------



## Chaparral

And Athol specifically states the MAP can drive your spouse away.


----------



## Saki

Exactly.

No marriage is worth saving at all costs. Why be in a marriage is you are miserable???

The 180 and the MAP and similar literature is aimed at making you (the man) happy.

The marriage is secondary. NMMNG also clearly states the marriage (relationship) will either drastically improve or dissolve. Either way, the MAN is happy.


----------



## island_of_one

SadandAngry said:


> Does she get the betrayal aspect of the EA yet?
> 
> You sound close to the point where you are going to have to make a choice. To go all in, and be vulnerable to the person that hurt you, or not. If not. then it's better for both of you to move on. You know you can now, and while it might not be easy, you can make a life with out her. So the question is, would you rather have her in your life, or not. She has to make the same choice regarding you.


I am not sure if she gets the betrayal aspect. It seems that she is starting to get why she pursued her needs regardless of my feelings and objections. We’ve haven’t had the conversation about her epiphany yet. She hasn’t wanted to talk at night as she has been very tired (very stressed out and not sleeping well at all). Since her email over the weekend, I had hoped she would start to show a change in attitude, but, if anything, she has been more distant and upset since. Seems to me that if she truly had a moment of enlightenment where she saw the error in her ways then she would be more understanding to why I am not happy with how she was/is behaving. I think she is too hung up on her own hurt. Hurt that I have not been loving lately. Hurt that I have admitted that I am having to decide whether I want to be with her or not….that she is the default choice but not an automatic. She (incorrectly) thinks is that I am intentionally causing her pain. And that she doesn’t feel like she deserves all of this to be hurt to be put on her. Which tells me she is probably not really getting it yet. 

So, I do need to decide soon. The current limbo environment will seal a split pretty soon if we don’t establish some basis for hope in the relationship. As iheartlife mentioned a while back, the WS needs to know there is a marriage to come back to. I had hoped that telling her what I needed and asking if she was interested would lead to a fruitful discussion on our future. I will have to find another to broach this topic that doesn’t result in her feeling judged and becoming defensive. If this is possible. For my sake, I am leaning back toward R assuming she can truly understand the implications of her affair. As I mentioned, I just have to finish convincing myself that a good enough wife/marriage is actually good enough.


----------



## Fisherman

island_of_one said:


> I am not sure if she gets the betrayal aspect. It seems that she is starting to get why she pursued her needs regardless of my feelings and objections. We’ve haven’t had the conversation about her epiphany yet. She hasn’t wanted to talk at night as she has been very tired (very stressed out and not sleeping well at all). Since her email over the weekend, I had hoped she would start to show a change in attitude, but, if anything, she has been more distant and upset since. Seems to me that if she truly had a moment of enlightenment where she saw the error in her ways then she would be more understanding to why I am not happy with how she was/is behaving. I think she is too hung up on her own hurt. Hurt that I have not been loving lately. Hurt that I have admitted that I am having to decide whether I want to be with her or not….that she is the default choice but not an automatic. She (incorrectly) thinks is that I am intentionally causing her pain. And that she doesn’t feel like she deserves all of this to be hurt to be put on her. Which tells me she is probably not really getting it yet.
> 
> So, I do need to decide soon. The current limbo environment will seal a split pretty soon if we don’t establish some basis for hope in the relationship. As iheartlife mentioned a while back, the WS needs to know there is a marriage to come back to. I had hoped that telling her what I needed and asking if she was interested would lead to a fruitful discussion on our future. I will have to find another to broach this topic that doesn’t result in her feeling judged and becoming defensive. If this is possible. For my sake, I am leaning back toward R assuming she can truly understand the implications of her affair. As I mentioned, I just have to finish convincing myself that a good enough wife/marriage is actually good enough.


You know your wife sounds terribly emotionally immature. You are waiting for her to behave a certain way and it does not sound like she has a clue what to do so you two just disconnect. I may be asking a redundant question and please forgive me if thats the case but have you just sat her down and told her how you think she should be reacting, that her actions are totally confusing you. Not giving her requirements to R just tell her you don't understand why she is acting the way she is and it is not giving you the signal that she wants to be married to you so your in limbo.


----------



## alte Dame

It sounds like your W carried on her EA with the complete security that you were reliably there for her & that she didn't have to question your commitment. She was brazen, in my opinion, in insisting on her OM in her life for so long, especially knowing how you felt about it.

Now that she has finally agreed to 'see the light' about NC, she suddenly also sees the damage it has done to her sense of security about you & she doesn't like it one bit. She wants that secure feeling back & it's beginning, finally, to dawn on her that she's a fool for having taken it for granted.

I think she's probably panicking internally & wants reassurance from you that she hasn't ruined everything with you. The problem is that she may well have done just that.

I think she needs to face up to it. Either she really understands that she's brought things to a precipice and needs to take responsibility and do some real work to improve your M, or she refuses to do this and you make your decision for yourself, on your own. Desperate times for her.


----------



## Saki

alte Dame said:


> I think she's probably panicking internally & wants reassurance from you that she hasn't ruined everything with you. The problem is that she may well have done just that.


And it's not your job to provide her reassurance. It's your job to be honest with her. Right now you really aren't sure the marriage is worth a **** to you (or at least that's what I read into YOUR internal debate).

You've talked about providing her reassurance. People here have told you that you need to quit the 180 because it dosen't provide her reassurance. 

Her insecurities are her own problem. If you fix it for her, you enable her future poor treatment of you.

Listen to what she's saying, reflect her feelings toward her, be honest about your own feelings, but don't go around patting her on the back telling her everything is going to be ok...

PARTICULARLY when your motivation for doing so is to change her behavior to something that more closely matches the way you think she should be behaving.


----------



## island_of_one

Jkw4338 said:


> You know your wife sounds terribly emotionally immature. You are waiting for her to behave a certain way and it does not sound like she has a clue what to do so you two just disconnect. I may be asking a redundant question and please forgive me if thats the case but have you just sat her down and told her how you think she should be reacting, that her actions are totally confusing you. Not giving her requirements to R just tell her you don't understand why she is acting the way she is and it is not giving you the signal that she wants to be married to you so your in limbo.



I’m not whether how to describe her behavior. I don’t know if it's emotional immaturity or something else. She has always had an issue with low esteem, and I wonder in what ways this is affecting her reactions. She admits to not knowing how to behave how I expect her to. That it is not that she isn’t trying, but that she just doesn’t know what to do. She just doesn’t process relationship topics in the way I do. She jumps to black and white conclusions which send her off down errant trains of thought. For example, I told her that I now think that we’ve always had some dysfunction in our relationship by making the other the center of our world…always putting others’ need before our own. Now, she thinks that I consider our 20+ year history to be completely dysfunctional. Which wasn’t my point at all. She never seems interested in talking about our issues. I’m not sure she has initiated any of the conversations we’ve had over the last year. On occasion, she will start an email on her own initiative, but not in person. If I was in her position and wanted to have a marriage, I would want to have time to talk to sort things out. Clearly, she does not respond at all how I would. 

I have given her expectations of what I expect from her (full transparency, true remorse, and actions to rebuild trust). She has done some of this, but my feeling is that is more begrudging than truly from the heart. Unfortunately, it is hard to discern her intentions right now. I plan to sit her down tonight and see if we can make some progress.


----------



## island_of_one

alte Dame said:


> It sounds like your W carried on her EA with the complete security that you were reliably there for her & that she didn't have to question your commitment. She was brazen, in my opinion, in insisting on her OM in her life for so long, especially knowing how you felt about it.
> 
> Now that she has finally agreed to 'see the light' about NC, she suddenly also sees the damage it has done to her sense of security about you & she doesn't like it one bit. She wants that secure feeling back & it's beginning, finally, to dawn on her that she's a fool for having taken it for granted.
> 
> I think she's probably panicking internally & wants reassurance from you that she hasn't ruined everything with you. The problem is that she may well have done just that.
> 
> I think she needs to face up to it. Either she really understands that she's brought things to a precipice and needs to take responsibility and do some real work to improve your M, or she refuses to do this and you make your decision for yourself, on your own. Desperate times for her.


Your explanation makes a lot of sense. What has been missing (from my perspective) is just what you said- owning up to what she did, understanding the consequences, and taking action. I don’t know if her own guilt/shame is such that she doesn’t want to face it unless she is positive there will be a good outcome in the marriage. Or, she may just not be forthcoming about what she really thinks of me. She says she loves me and wants to have a life together but her actions don’t seem to back that up. I am not sure that her interest in staying isn’t more the house and easy lifestyle than wanting me.


----------



## island_of_one

2asdf2 said:


> She does not think that. It's pure deliberate blameshifting.


Really?? Wow, just another reminder to open my eyes a bit wider about how she is capable of behaving.


----------



## bfree

island_of_one said:


> I’m not whether how to describe her behavior. I don’t know if it's emotional immaturity or something else. She has always had an issue with low esteem, and I wonder in what ways this is affecting her reactions. She admits to not knowing how to behave how I expect her to. That it is not that she isn’t trying, but that she just doesn’t know what to do. She just doesn’t process relationship topics in the way I do. *She jumps to black and white conclusions which send her off down errant trains of thought.* For example, I told her that I now think that we’ve always had some dysfunction in our relationship by making the other the center of our world…always putting others’ need before our own. Now, she thinks that I consider our 20+ year history to be completely dysfunctional. Which wasn’t my point at all. She never seems interested in talking about our issues. I’m not sure she has initiated any of the conversations we’ve had over the last year. On occasion, she will start an email on her own initiative, but not in person. If I was in her position and wanted to have a marriage, I would want to have time to talk to sort things out. Clearly, she does not respond at all how I would.
> 
> I have given her expectations of what I expect from her (full transparency, true remorse, and actions to rebuild trust). She has done some of this, but my feeling is that is more begrudging than truly from the heart. Unfortunately, it is hard to discern her intentions right now. I plan to sit her down tonight and see if we can make some progress.


I'm sorry if this has been covered but does your wife have BPD? Black/white thinking is one primary symptom if I recall correctly.


----------



## loveisforever

Saki said:


> This is the key.
> 
> This is what NMMNG is about at it's core. * It's about being comfortable with the person you are and harnessing all the power that person possesses.*
> 
> *It's about being ok with being you, and knowing how to maximize you.*
> 
> I caution against I O O spending a lot of time trying to fix his marriage today, like later this morning or after lunch. Nobody's at the place in his marriage where that is going to be effective. He's not there, and his wife is a world away from there.
> 
> He's done what he can to start his wife in the right direction. Now he needs to get himself into shape.
> 
> Right now, he needs to move himself to a place where he is improving himself, his contribution to the marriage, identifying his needs, etc - but here's the kicker
> 
> *It HAS to be for him. It can't be to win his wife's approval, it can't be for his kids, it can't be for the marriage. That will not work.*
> 
> I do not believe, despite what he may write, that he's truly at a place where he clearly sees his goals and his needs. I beleive he is still very much afraid of his wife's disapproval and there is no way to be sucessful in this endeavor if that is the case.
> 
> *He can't effectively listen, he can't genuinely care, he can't express true love, until he makes significant personal strides.
> *
> He needs his strength to be able to stand up for his needs and drag this marriage out of the mud.
> 
> I'm not saying he shouldn't read HN/HN, 5 LL, etc. I'm just saying that should be further down the road.


Well said. Until then, you are truly a MAN.


----------



## loveisforever

bfree said:


> I'm sorry if this has been covered but does your wife have BPD? Black/white thinking is one primary symptom if I recall correctly.


His wife's behavior is very similar to mine. My wife has BPD/NPD.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...-came-out-fog-ran-away-14-years-marriage.html


----------



## island_of_one

Had a long talk with my wife last night. I think there some things gained from it, but mostly it was kind of frustrating experience for me. I am a very logical and analytical person that breaks things down into basic concepts. For whatever reason, my wife just can’t grasp relationship concepts in the way I break them down.

I started by asking her to tell me about her “epiphany” from the other night. She tried to play off by saying that she had already told me in her email. I insisted that she tell me verbally. She then had to re-read her email and then only had a couple of sentences to say about it. Suffice to say I am not very convinced that she has really had a significant enlightenment. She also flinched the first couple times I used the word affair. 

She claims that she can’t do what I’m asking unless there is love and commitment from me. Basically, she wants reassurances from me before being able to move forward. I explained to her that when a couple has disconnected, there has to be actions first and that the love and emotion follow. She doesn’t seem to be buying into that concept right now. 

She says that every day it takes all she has just to keep going. That there is so much hurt, and that she feels so beaten down by me not saying ILY and by me being undecided on her, that she doesn’t have enough left to work out other things. I told her that it hurts to lose security and love, but she needs to consider other ways of reacting to it. I certainly don’t feel wanted and desired as a husband but I am not devastated by it on a daily basis. She can just take offense, or she can be motivated to do something about it…her choice. 

I did get her to admit that she doesn’t want to delve into resolving the EA unless she knows there will be a marriage waiting for her. I can understand her perspective. I told her the first thing we need to do is for each of us to determine what we need in a relationship, decide if the other person can potentially meet those needs, and if we want to be the person the other one needs to have. In other words, we both need to decide that we still want to be together….for the right reasons. If we post want to be in, then the next hurdle is to fully tackle the EA aftermath. Which means her being remorseful, being completely honest about what happened, owning up to her choices, and doing the work to rebuild trust.

At some point fairly early in the conversation she threw out a question of why would I want to be with her. I gave her a chance to offer an answer but she did not. I then re-iterated my list of needs and offered up what I think she is capable of doing. I asked her if she wants to be that person. She said of course she wants to be that person but doesn’t know how. I asked her think about whether she is willing to commit to trying. I am asking a lot of her…which I have never done before.


----------



## Fisherman

island_of_one said:


> Had a long talk with my wife last night. I think there some things gained from it, but mostly it was kind of frustrating experience for me. I am a very logical and analytical person that breaks things down into basic concepts. For whatever reason, my wife just can’t grasp relationship concepts in the way I break them down.
> 
> I started by asking her to tell me about her “epiphany” from the other night. She tried to play off by saying that she had already told me in her email. I insisted that she tell me verbally. She then had to re-read her email and then only had a couple of sentences to say about it. Suffice to say I am not very convinced that she has really had a significant enlightenment. She also flinched the first couple times I used the word affair.
> 
> She claims that she can’t do what I’m asking unless there is love and commitment from me. Basically, she wants reassurances from me before being able to move forward. I explained to her that when a couple has disconnected, there has to be actions first and that the love and emotion follow. She doesn’t seem to be buying into that concept right now.
> 
> She says that every day it takes all she has just to keep going. That there is so much hurt, and that she feels so beaten down by me not saying ILY and by me being undecided on her, that she doesn’t have enough left to work out other things. I told her that it hurts to lose security and love, but she needs to consider other ways of reacting to it. I certainly don’t feel wanted and desired as a husband but I am not devastated by it on a daily basis. She can just take offense, or she can be motivated to do something about it…her choice.
> 
> I did get her to admit that she doesn’t want to delve into resolving the EA unless she knows there will be a marriage waiting for her. I can understand her perspective. I told her the first thing we need to do is for each of us to determine what we need in a relationship, decide if the other person can potentially meet those needs, and if we want to be the person the other one needs to have. In other words, we both need to decide that we still want to be together….for the right reasons. If we post want to be in, then the next hurdle is to fully tackle the EA aftermath. Which means her being remorseful, being completely honest about what happened, owning up to her choices, and doing the work to rebuild trust.
> 
> At some point fairly early in the conversation she threw out a question of why would I want to be with her. I gave her a chance to offer an answer but she did not. I then re-iterated my list of needs and offered up what I think she is capable of doing. I asked her if she wants to be that person. She said of course she wants to be that person but doesn’t know how. I asked her think about whether she is willing to commit to trying. I am asking a lot of her…which I have never done before.


I think you just need to file and move on. You two are dancing around the big elephant in the room. Seems to me you have detached and don't think she measures up to what you want and I don't think you going to get there having discussions like this.


----------



## alte Dame

island_of_one said:


> She claims that she can’t do what I’m asking unless there is love and commitment from me. Basically, she wants reassurances from me before being able to move forward.
> ......
> I did get her to admit that she doesn’t want to delve into resolving the EA unless she knows there will be a marriage waiting for her.


I hope you will not give your W these reassurances. You may have to give her some time to accept her new reality, but I believe that it is important that she does accept it.

Her new reality is that she damaged your marriage with her behavior, with her EA. She must work on resolving the EA issue to your satisfaction before anyone can know whether you can offer her reassurance.

Sometimes life is unpredictable and we lack security for ourselves. Your W has made her bed in this regard & the only way to have a strong recovered marriage is for her to lie in it for awhile, no matter how unhappy or insecure it makes her.

So, the steps should be:

1. Complete honesty and reflection on the EA & discussion and work on the marriage.

2. Decision on whether you feel you can reassure her of your commitment.

NOT

1. Blind reassurance of commitment.

2. Grudging discussion of EA and self-serving rugsweeping as M continues in a dissatisfactory way.


----------



## Fisherman

alte Dame said:


> I hope you will not give your W these reassurances. You may have to give her some time to accept her new reality, but I believe that it is important that she does accept it.
> 
> Her new reality is that she damaged your marriage with her behavior, with her EA. She must work on resolving the EA issue to your satisfaction before anyone can know whether you can offer her reassurance.
> 
> Sometimes life is unpredictable and we lack security for ourselves. Your W has made her bed in this regard & the only way to have a strong recovered marriage is for her to lie in it for awhile, no matter how unhappy or insecure it makes her.
> 
> So, the steps should be:
> 
> 1. Complete honesty and reflection on the EA & discussion and work on the marriage.
> 
> 2. Decision on whether you feel you can reassure her of your commitment.
> 
> NOT
> 
> 1. Blind reassurance of commitment.
> 
> 2. Grudging discussion of EA and self-serving rugsweeping as M continues in a dissatisfactory way.


I don't think these two will ever get to resolving the EA, they are like yin and yang talking different languages. This is probably the root of the problems with their marriage. He needs to make a decision what he wants, then figure out how to get there.

He thinks analytically and her emotionally, like oil and water.


----------



## alte Dame

Jkw4338 said:


> I don't think these two will ever get to resolving the EA, they are like yin and yang talking different languages. This is probably the root of the problems with their marriage. He needs to make a decision what he wants, then figure out how to get there.
> 
> He thinks analytically and her emotionally, like oil and water.


Maybe they won't come to a reasonable understanding with the EA. It's hard to tell, of course.

I think, though, that he should do what he needs to do for himself - very much so at this point. The irony is that compromising, in this case reassuring just as a band-aid, will probably be the death knell, while staying firm on his own path could lead to a successful R in the end.


----------



## alte Dame

IOO - Also, it seems to me that your W has suddenly gone from being secure in the idea that she had two men in her life who 'couldn't live without her.' Now, she is looking at the prospect that she has none.

This is scary, but she has done this. The consequences are that she has put her own emotional security into jeopardy. She will survive this if she is made to face it.


----------



## loveisforever

island_of_one said:


> Had a long talk with my wife last night. I think there some things gained from it, but mostly it was kind of frustrating experience for me. I am a very logical and analytical person that breaks things down into basic concepts. For whatever reason, my wife just can’t grasp relationship concepts in the way I break them down.
> 
> I started by asking her to tell me about her “epiphany” from the other night. She tried to play off by saying that she had already told me in her email. I insisted that she tell me verbally. She then had to re-read her email and then only had a couple of sentences to say about it. Suffice to say I am not very convinced that she has really had a significant enlightenment. She also flinched the first couple times I used the word affair.
> 
> She claims that she can’t do what I’m asking unless there is love and commitment from me. Basically, she wants reassurances from me before being able to move forward. I explained to her that when a couple has disconnected, there has to be actions first and that the love and emotion follow. She doesn’t seem to be buying into that concept right now.
> 
> She says that every day it takes all she has just to keep going. That there is so much hurt, and that she feels so beaten down by me not saying ILY and by me being undecided on her, that she doesn’t have enough left to work out other things. I told her that it hurts to lose security and love, but she needs to consider other ways of reacting to it. I certainly don’t feel wanted and desired as a husband but I am not devastated by it on a daily basis. She can just take offense, or she can be motivated to do something about it…her choice.
> 
> I did get her to admit that she doesn’t want to delve into resolving the EA unless she knows there will be a marriage waiting for her. I can understand her perspective. I told her the first thing we need to do is for each of us to determine what we need in a relationship, decide if the other person can potentially meet those needs, and if we want to be the person the other one needs to have. In other words, we both need to decide that we still want to be together….for the right reasons. If we post want to be in, then the next hurdle is to fully tackle the EA aftermath. Which means her being remorseful, being completely honest about what happened, owning up to her choices, and doing the work to rebuild trust.
> 
> At some point fairly early in the conversation she threw out a question of why would I want to be with her. I gave her a chance to offer an answer but she did not. I then re-iterated my list of needs and offered up what I think she is capable of doing. I asked her if she wants to be that person. She said of course she wants to be that person but doesn’t know how. I asked her think about whether she is willing to commit to trying. I am asking a lot of her…which I have never done before.


Hi IOO: I had to say that your were manipulated by your wife yet again. You should stated that because she IS in an affair state right NOW, she is not deserve your love. She need to own and reject her affair FIRST, then there is a POSSIBILITY to build REAL LOVE. She has already betrayed your love. You two are not in the same level, with she at a lower moral level. This is a FACT. 

It appears that you did not stick to the above ground. Your wife want you two EQUAL now, which means she is not WRONG, not in Affair, not own her F*King betray of your marriage. Of course, she will not admit this. But if you do as her asked and re-afirm love for each other, that will mean: You two are equal, she deserve your love RIGHT NOW, she did nothing serious wrong and broken, which means you are wrong now to blame her for her affair and you are a jerk to hurt her so badly right now.

This talk shows mentally you are still too weak to match her and lead her. If you keep act in her spell, being confused by her tricks, then it will show that you are lack of confidence, insight, wisdom, and strength. 

Man, wake up quick. If you keep retreat and being confused, you are defeated. You wife is in deep fog, severe addiction. She is used to trick you, disrespect you, gain an upper hand over you all the time in the past. You need a real change to man up against her and lead her. Before you shock her to reality, you need to shock yourself to reality first. This is what you should focus on right now.


----------



## Fisherman

alte Dame said:


> Maybe they won't come to a reasonable understanding with the EA. It's hard to tell, of course.
> 
> I think, though, that he should do what he needs to do for himself - very much so at this point. The irony is that compromising, in this case reassuring just as a band-aid, will probably be the death knell, while staying firm on his own path could lead to a successful R in the end.


I completely agree, do not compromise that would prolong her indecision. I just feel that island is waffling on what he wants and may be trying to poke at her in these conversations. 

Island, you let this go on so long before finally standing firm about what you expect with no results that you have pretty much convinced yourself that she is not worth the effort but your hanging in limbo. 

If you would file, have her served your going to get results faster one way or another. It's said many times that you have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it. If that don't get her to change she never will. You do not have to go through with the divorce, there is time to stop it.


----------



## island_of_one

bfree said:


> I'm sorry if this has been covered but does your wife have BPD? Black/white thinking is one primary symptom if I recall correctly.


No, I don't think she is anywhere close to BPD. My wife is historically very emotionally stable and not prone to emotional swings at all. This is one of the things I like about her. She is (was) typically a pretty low maintenance spouse.


----------



## island_of_one

alte Dame said:


> I hope you will not give your W these reassurances. You may have to give her some time to accept her new reality, but I believe that it is important that she does accept it.
> 
> So, the steps should be:
> 
> 1. Complete honesty and reflection on the EA & discussion and work on the marriage.
> 
> 2. Decision on whether you feel you can reassure her of your commitment.



I have no plans to give her such reassurances. I cannot give her assurances on feelings that I don’t have right now. I can’t tell her that things will be all right in the end. She will have to find a way to deal with these facts. My previous post was simply providing details on her perspective…not an indication that I am going along. 

I see the steps as:

1) I decide if I want to *try* to reconcile. There is not really a point in addressing the EA if I’m leaving anyway, so I see this choice as the first step. There are a lot of factors in this decision for me. I think she has the capability to become a better version of herself and I could be happy with that version. If she is willing and interested to work (very, very hard) to that end, then I am inclined to try to stay together. Wife has the same choice toward me. 

2) Wife must do the steps necessary to rebuild from the EA. R will only work if she meets the expectations laid out. No guarantees that I will be there at the end of this effort if she can’t step to do what is necessary. 

3) We work on improving ourselves while we also work on the marriage. Again, no guarantees that this will work out…only that we *commit to trying*. 




alte Dame said:


> NOT
> 
> 1. Blind reassurance of commitment.
> 
> 2. Grudging discussion of EA and self-serving rugsweeping as M continues in a dissatisfactory way.


This is definitely the path she is seeking. I am not going down that path.


----------



## island_of_one

Jkw4338 said:


> I don't think these two will ever get to resolving the EA, they are like yin and yang talking different languages. This is probably the root of the problems with their marriage. He needs to make a decision what he wants, then figure out how to get there.
> 
> He thinks analytically and her emotionally, like oil and water.



As suggested, she is an emotional thinker while I am pretty far on the extreme end of being analytical. As I think about it, this has likely been a big factor in us not being able to resolve anything lately. A lot of things we say to each other doesn't seem to get through. Plus, her motives are always in question. I have struggled to understand when she is refusing to think about, or work on, issues vs. just simply not being to understand things in a way that I expect for a reasonably intelligent person. Don't really know how to resolve this. I would think that there successful couples with the same thinking/communication styles that we have. Could be wrong...


----------



## Fisherman

island_of_one said:


> As suggested, she is an emotional thinker while I am pretty far on the extreme end of being analytical. As I think about it, this has likely been a big factor in us not being able to resolve anything lately. A lot of things we say to each other doesn't seem to get through. Plus, her motives are always in question. I have struggled to understand when she is refusing to think about, or work on, issues vs. just simply not being to understand things in a way that I expect for a reasonably intelligent person. Don't really know how to resolve this. I would think that there successful couples with the same thinking/communication styles that we have. Could be wrong...


You probably have already figured this out but she will probably not do anything that is logical and reasonable in your mind considering the emotional state she is in now. I honestly think that the reason you guys have stayed together thus far is your willingness to put up with it and suppress your own feelings. Now your fed up with bending over backwards and catering to her quirks and are considering alternatives. I don't see this as fog either, she has probably had these traits your whole marriage. So your in limbo right now.

If it were in your shoes I would probably have treated her the same way as you because I fall under the category of the "nice guy". I would however not put up with this EA as soon as I realized what was going on. I would not even have considered R, she would have received divorce papers and be on her own. IMO she has totally disrespected you.

You need to just choose a direction and go for it. There is another thread out here by a BH that is waiting for his wife to come to her senses. He is still waiting and keeps saying things like I have to give her a few more months. Don't fall into that trap.


----------



## Saki

IOO,

You talk a whole lot about how your wife feels.

How are you feeling these days??? What are you doing to take care of yourself?

Also, now that you've realized women are emotional thinkers, there are some wonderful passages in David Deida's "The Way of the Superior Man" that you will relate to, and might help give you some guidance on how to deal with "the feminine".

PS, limbo sucks man. Get your ass outta there. One or the other. In or out. Decide, and go all in.


----------



## island_of_one

Here's the latest updates- another day, more drama. We had a fight last night over her iPad. Right after I get home, she hands me her iPad and very nicely asks me to enter the restrictions access code. She says that she wants to completely reset her iPad so she can start over on organizing everything (now that she better knows how to use it). She had worked all day on organizing stuff in the house and that she wants a clean start with her devices. 

Well, though she had not mentioned a word of this to me, I knew something like this was coming. A few days ago I was able to check her iPhone where I could see a file that shows the last 600 characters typed. Keylogged data is usually pretty jumbled but I saw some words about her iPad, my name, and it would a shame to lose picture and video files. In another section, there was a part where my wife is addressing her BF and indicates being afraid to delete texts for fear of me thinking that BF has “gone to the dark side.” Over the weekend, wife had me backup all of the pictures and videos from her phone and iPad onto our desktop computer. 

In any case, I did not go through with having all of the iPad data erases. To me, it seems like something is up that she is not telling me about. I have no idea if there is anything damaging on the iPad that she is afraid I’ll see. I have previously checked it out as best as I can without finding anything. So, I am not expecting any big discoveries, but the whole thing just didn’t pass the sniff test for me. 

I merely told my wife that I would think about it. When she realized that I wasn’t going to go along with her plan last night, she got really upset and a pointless, hour long conversation ensued. Some of the usual things: I’m treating her like crap, I am being vindictive, I should be trying to work with her to make things better, how we are in a parent/child relationship right now, how she is trying to do what I ask, that I have nothing to gain by denying her request….etc, etc, etc. She was upset and angry; I was calm. I told her I wasn’t treating her like crap. I am treating her like I don’t trust her- because I don’t. I told her that I am holding her to my expectations for what a WS needs to do and I don’t feel that she is close to doing that. I also reminded her that we first need to decide if we really want to be together and that should be where she focuses her thoughts (ie can she be what I need, what does she need from me). 

She ended up staying up half the night. Once again, this morning I find an email from her. This one is interesting- she wrote very little but had copied a few pages of quotes from the marriagebuilders site. She picked out clips where Harley talks about things like: enemies of conversation such as criticism and punishment, why not to make demands or try to control, how it is better to focus on the future and not the past. She included this letter (What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife Letter #2) where Harley seems to be telling the BH not to worry about what the wife won’t admit to, to just focus on meeting her needs, and not to risk losing her by passing judgment. She pasted in part of Harley’s response to another letter where he says that the husband should never mention his wife’s affair again. My wife conveniently left out the details where the wife’s affair was 10 years ago. In any case, she is just using someone else’s words, mostly out of context, to say the same things she’s been telling. 

She also (finally) provided a list of her emotional needs per Harley’s categories. Her list is affection, conversation, rec companionship, financial support, family commitment, and admiration. At least she was giving some thought to these things and reading the marriage builders site. I also saw that she did a couple searches on emotional affair recovery. Too bad she didn’t start spending her energy on this sort of effort sooner. Of course, she also had a couple searches on “controlling husband.”

Her list covered 6 out 10 categories and I don’t know how precisely she has these ordered. The key one may be the last on the list: admiration. I think this one is a hang up for both us. The problem is that I don’t admire her. She is warm and caring and a very good person, but she doesn’t currently exhibit much in the way of traits or qualities that I admire. This is part of the lack of attraction to her as a person. On her side, she wants to be admired and wants to feel like we are truly equals. This is not something I am able to provide for her. The only way I see this happening is if she can become a much stronger version of herself. Perhaps it is foolish to expect someone to have the ability to make a drastic improvement at this point in life. I have that belief in myself, but I doubt she believes it for herself.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> IOO,
> 
> You talk a whole lot about how your wife feels.
> 
> How are you feeling these days??? What are you doing to take care of yourself?
> 
> Also, now that you've realized women are emotional thinkers, there are some wonderful passages in David Deida's "The Way of the Superior Man" that you will relate to, and might help give you some guidance on how to deal with "the feminine".
> 
> PS, limbo sucks man. Get your ass outta there. One or the other. In or out. Decide, and go all in.


For the most part, I am doing all right. Since the family returned from the trip after New Year’s, I have not taking a lot of time for myself. Still struggling with finding the time and space for myself with everybody else around. When I was by myself for a week, I felt rejuvenated, optimistic, and the most relaxed I’ve been in a long time. That has faded somewhat, but I still feel pretty good on days when I get enough sleep. When left to my own devices, I am much better at maintaining my focus/effectiveness on doing what I need to be doing. 

The uncertainty with being in limbo doesn’t really bother me a lot. I can live in the gray areas of life for a while. The only coping skill I learned from my original family (which was rather dysfunctional due to my mother’s bipolar traits) was detachment, so I am, unfortunately, pretty good at detaching. What does cause me stress is the indecision on what route I want to take. My decision obviously has huge ramifications for my family (the kids in particular), and this indecision does weigh heavily on me daily. My crystal ball is pretty cloudy on what person to expect my wife to be. I have different sides that tell me different answers on what I should do, and it’s hard to know which side of me is valid and which is clouded in judgment... or how my viewpoints will change as I become the person I need to be. At another time, I will try to spell out these internal arguments.


----------



## Chaparral

island_of_one said:


> Had a long talk with my wife last night. I think there some things gained from it, but mostly it was kind of frustrating experience for me. I am a very logical and analytical person that breaks things down into basic concepts. For whatever reason, my wife just can’t grasp relationship concepts in the way I break them down.
> 
> I started by asking her to tell me about her “epiphany” from the other night. She tried to play off by saying that she had already told me in her email. I insisted that she tell me verbally. She then had to re-read her email and then only had a couple of sentences to say about it. Suffice to say I am not very convinced that she has really had a significant enlightenment. She also flinched the first couple times I used the word affair.
> 
> She claims that she can’t do what I’m asking unless there is love and commitment from me. Basically, she wants reassurances from me before being able to move forward. I explained to her that when a couple has disconnected, there has to be actions first and that the love and emotion follow. She doesn’t seem to be buying into that concept right now.
> 
> She says that every day it takes all she has just to keep going. That there is so much hurt, and that she feels so beaten down by me not saying ILY and by me being undecided on her, that she doesn’t have enough left to work out other things. I told her that it hurts to lose security and love, but she needs to consider other ways of reacting to it. I certainly don’t feel wanted and desired as a husband but I am not devastated by it on a daily basis. She can just take offense, or she can be motivated to do something about it…her choice.
> 
> I did get her to admit that she doesn’t want to delve into resolving the EA unless she knows there will be a marriage waiting for her. I can understand her perspective. I told her the first thing we need to do is for each of us to determine what we need in a relationship, decide if the other person can potentially meet those needs, and if we want to be the person the other one needs to have. In other words, we both need to decide that we still want to be together….for the right reasons. If we post want to be in, then the next hurdle is to fully tackle the EA aftermath. Which means her being remorseful, being completely honest about what happened, owning up to her choices, and doing the work to rebuild trust.
> 
> At some point fairly early in the conversation she threw out a question of why would I want to be with her. I gave her a chance to offer an answer but she did not. I then re-iterated my list of needs and offered up what I think she is capable of doing. I asked her if she wants to be that person. She said of course she wants to be that person but doesn’t know how. I asked her think about whether she is willing to commit to trying. I am asking a lot of her…which I have never done before.


You sound like an engineer trying to talk to another engineer.

This wont work. This is aperfect example of the communication problem with men and women. I dont know where you need to go to fix this. 

You are not meeting her on n emotional level. She doesnt understand you because your speaking geek.........er greek.


----------



## bfree

ioo,

I agree with you, something sounds fishy about the ipad. You mentioned her bf going over to the dark side. I assume you mean her best friend and not her boyfriend. Is this friend what you would consider a toxic friend and if so why is she still communicating with her? And don't be too concerned with how quickly you proceed on anything. You need to take your time and gather your thoughts. Clarity will come to you when its time. Don't make any huge life altering decisions until you're sure of which direction you know you want to go.


----------



## alte Dame

It sounds very much like you both need time to clarify for yourselves what you want, even for the short term.

Your W is beginning to do some of the work she needs to do, even though it's self-serving for the moment. If you can stay steady and consistent, she will hopefully begin to understand the ramifications of what she has done.


----------



## island_of_one

chapparal said:


> You sound like an engineer trying to talk to another engineer.
> 
> This wont work. This is aperfect example of the communication problem with men and women. I dont know where you need to go to fix this.
> 
> You are not meeting her on n emotional level. She doesnt understand you because your speaking geek.........er greek.


There is a good reason I sound like an engineer....it happens to be my day job. Alas, I also don't know how to fix the way that we relate to each other on an emotional level. 

I will point out that I think a lot of our inability to resolve issues (or just get the other to understand our viewpoint) recently is that I have to question her motivation and sincerity whenever she is telling me her thoughts and feelings. After a couple years where she was not acting in good faith, where she would appear heart felt but really only acting to preserve her EA, it is not possible (or advisable) for me to take her comments at face value. This is a major hindrance to communicating on issues.


----------



## island_of_one

bfree said:


> ioo,
> 
> I agree with you, something sounds fishy about the ipad. You mentioned her bf going over to the dark side. I assume you mean her best friend and not her boyfriend. Is this friend what you would consider a toxic friend and if so why is she still communicating with her? And don't be too concerned with how quickly you proceed on anything. You need to take your time and gather your thoughts. Clarity will come to you when its time. Don't make any huge life altering decisions until you're sure of which direction you know you want to go.


Yep, BF = best friend. I don't consider her a toxic friend, though I think that her total, unconditional support to my wife served as an enabling force for my wife to convince herself she wasn't doing anything wrong. BF may not have conspired in anyway wrt to contact with OM, but she is certainly willing to help my wife hide things if needed. I think the "dark side" quote was just referring to my previous comment to my wife that I wouldn't be OK with BF being around if BF was helping hide things from me.


----------



## bfree

island_of_one said:


> Yep, BF = best friend. I don't consider her a toxic friend, though I think that her total, unconditional support to my wife served as an enabling force for my wife to convince herself she wasn't doing anything wrong. BF may not have conspired in anyway wrt to contact with OM, but she is certainly willing to help my wife hide things if needed. I think the "dark side" quote was just referring to my previous comment to my wife that I wouldn't be OK with BF being around if BF was helping hide things from me.


I hate to say it but she does sound like an enabler at the very least. You might be wise to strongly suggest to your wife that she give their friendship a rest for awhile so she can concentrate more on healing your marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## carmen ohio

island_of_one said:


> There is a good reason I sound like an engineer....it happens to be my day job. Alas, I also don't know how to fix the way that we relate to each other on an emotional level.
> 
> I will point out that I think a lot of our inability to resolve issues (or just get the other to understand our viewpoint) recently is that I have to question her motivation and sincerity whenever she is telling me her thoughts and feelings. After a couple years where she was not acting in good faith, where she would appear heart felt but really only acting to preserve her EA, it is not possible (or advisable) for me to take her comments at face value. This is a major hindrance to communicating on issues.


Dear i_o_o,

I don't think your problem is due to a failure to communicate. (Finally, I get to use my favorite line from "Cool Hand Luke.") Rather, the two of you are talking past each other (i.e., you're not talking about the same thing).

I see it like this:

- You believe your wife cheated but she thinks she did nothing wrong (or, at most, that what she did was only a little bit wrong but nothing like "cheating") ;

- Because you think she cheated, you don't trust her. Because she doesn't agree that she cheated, she is resentful that you don't trust her.

- Because you don't trust her, you have asked to do and not do things that, in your view, will help you regain trust and are disappointed in her reluctance to do what you've asked. Because she is resentful, she sees these things as indicating that you don't respect, value or love her and therefore only does them reluctantly.

- Because she only does what you've asked reluctantly, you see her as _not being committed to the marriage_ which only reinforces your displeasure over what she did. Because she suspects you of not respecting, valuing and loving her, she sees you as _not being committed to the marriage_ which makes her even more reluctant to do the things that you believe will help rebuild trust.

If there is any truth to the foregoing analysis, it not surprising that the conversations the two of you have had of late have proven unproductive. Unless and until one of you changes your view of what happened (either you agree that her relationship with the OM was not a threat to your marriage or she agrees that she cheated), it seems unlikely that you will be able to reconcile.

I happen to see things mostly from your point of view and therefore ask myself, what would I do if I were in your position. What I come up with is that I would sit her down and explain the foregoing to her, showing respect for her POV but holding fast to my own. Then I would say:

"I don't think you are going to change your mind about what you did or didn't do and I'm not going to change mine either. So, what is likely to happen is that the two of us will just get more and more unhappy with each other until one of us is fed up and files for divorce.

"Rather than let that happen, I suggest we end our marriage now, resolving to try to remain amicable with each other for the sake of our children.

"I'm open to other ideas but what I'm not willing to do is to continue the status quo for much longer. If you can't understand how I feel and accept that you have to do your part in rebuilding our marriage -- and do it willingly -- then I prefer to end it.

What do you think?"

Chances are, she'll give you a lot of reasons why you're wrong, controlling, disrespectful, etc., in which case I'd just say, "well, it's obvious we're not going to agree," and then file for divorce ASAP. Even if she does indicate a greater degree of remorse than previously, it's doubtful that she will go so far as to accept that what you expect of her is reasonable and tearfully commit to reconciliation and, in that event, I'd probably file before too long. But, who knows, maybe this will be a big enough 2x4 to get her to admit that she did wrong and needs to change and you can take a shot at reconciliation.

Bottom line, I don't see the two of you making progress unless you show her that you're prepared to end the marriage, and that means starting divorce proceedings. Of course, the risk of filing is that she will decide that she too wants a divorce but, if that what she does, you will know that it was only a matter of time before she would have filed or cheated again.

Either this or stay in the same place you're at and try to communicate better.


----------



## bfree

:iagree:

Also, why does your wife cling to the idea that her "friendship" was not an EA? What has convinced her that she has done nothing wrong? Has she read any books (Not Just Friends, After the Affair, etc.) Whether she wants to cop to the EA terminology or not can't she see how it was wrong and how it hurt you? If she were on the receiving end of this wouldn't she feel hurt and betrayed?


----------



## SadandAngry

I think Carmen is right. Neither one of you is taking the initiative to commit a hundred percent to the other without getting the return commitment first. That's understandable, but it might kill your marriage slowly.
I was lucky in a sense, the threat to my marriage was much more immediate, much more obvious. It came at a time where I had just gone through a really in depth analysis of my marriage, really thought about what I wanted, and had decided I did want my marriage to go on. When I discovered the threat I was able to formulate a plan, and to realise the only chance I had to give my marriage a chance of surviving was to go all in, on my own, despite the fact that she didn't really deserve it at the time. I took the power and used it for both of us. I started making decisions and doing things to improve us. I had such amazing clarity for a time, I just knew what to do. She didn't really, but I gave her enough leadership that, while she did make some mistakes, she didn't monumentally screw up, and over the course of a few months she came out of the fog and started to get things again, then she was able to start helping to rebuild too.
You two might be able to eventually inch each other back into commitment and get to a good marriage, but I think the chances that it will go off the rails is high. It can happen a lot faster, and with a better chance of success IF one of you takes a leap of faith first, without a safety net from the other. It is hard. It is risky. It has to be done by one of you, sooner or later. You need to trust yourself that you'll be ok, even if the other person fails you ultimately, because that gives you the strength and the hope to show the other person some trust before it is fully earned. 
Maybe we do that sort of thing all the time, loan people some of our trust in ourselves as we start to build relationships, to allow that investment to grow and blossom into something more. Faith and trust in ourselves gives us more to give to others.


----------



## island_of_one

bfree said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Also, why does your wife cling to the idea that her "friendship" was not an EA? What has convinced her that she has done nothing wrong? Has she read any books (Not Just Friends, After the Affair, etc.) Whether she wants to cop to the EA terminology or not can't she see how it was wrong and how it hurt you? If she were on the receiving end of this wouldn't she feel hurt and betrayed?


I wish I had the real answers to those questions. She clearly does not put a “non-romantic” relationship (that how she views her EA) on the same scale as a PA. She acknowledges that she lied to me and overstepped some boundaries, but I am pretty sure she isn’t telling her BF or mom that she and an "affair."

She at least knew on a logical level that her relationship to OM was a fantasy, so she was able to compartmentalize it from the real world. She knew there was never any real opportunity to be with OM. Plus, I never saw an indication he was interested romantically. She feels that there are different types of love. That she can love more than one- just loving each differently. She understands to a certain level why I feel hurt and betrayed, but she doesn’t seem to understand the effects of broken trust. She doesn’t get how devastating it is to our relationship when she makes a seemingly heartfelt comment and I don’t know whether she’s is being sincere or just deceiving me.


----------



## island_of_one

carmen ohio said:


> Dear i_o_o,
> 
> I don't think your problem is due to a failure to communicate. (Finally, I get to use my favorite line from "Cool Hand Luke.") Rather, the two of you are talking past each other (i.e., you're not talking about the same thing).
> 
> I see it like this:
> 
> - You believe your wife cheated but she thinks she did nothing wrong (or, at most, that what she did was only a little bit wrong but nothing like "cheating") ;
> 
> - Because you think she cheated, you don't trust her. Because she doesn't agree that she cheated, she is resentful that you don't trust her.
> 
> - Because you don't trust her, you have asked to do and not do things that, in your view, will help you regain trust and are disappointed in her reluctance to do what you've asked. Because she is resentful, she sees these things as indicating that you don't respect, value or love her and therefore only does them reluctantly.
> 
> - Because she only does what you've asked reluctantly, you see her as _not being committed to the marriage_ which only reinforces your displeasure over what she did. Because she suspects you of not respecting, valuing and loving her, she sees you as _not being committed to the marriage_ which makes her even more reluctant to do the things that you believe will help rebuild trust.
> 
> If there is any truth to the foregoing analysis, it not surprising that the conversations the two of you have had of late have proven unproductive. Unless and until one of you changes your view of what happened (either you agree that her relationship with the OM was not a threat to your marriage or she agrees that she cheated), it seems unlikely that you will be able to reconcile.
> 
> I happen to see things mostly from your point of view and therefore ask myself, what would I do if I were in your position. What I come up with is that I would sit her down and explain the foregoing to her, showing respect for her POV but holding fast to my own. Then I would say:
> 
> "I don't think you are going to change your mind about what you did or didn't do and I'm not going to change mine either. So, what is likely to happen is that the two of us will just get more and more unhappy with each other until one of us is fed up and files for divorce.
> 
> "Rather than let that happen, I suggest we end our marriage now, resolving to try to remain amicable with each other for the sake of our children.
> 
> "I'm open to other ideas but what I'm not willing to do is to continue the status quo for much longer. If you can't understand how I feel and accept that you have to do your part in rebuilding our marriage -- and do it willingly -- then I prefer to end it.
> 
> What do you think?"
> 
> Chances are, she'll give you a lot of reasons why you're wrong, controlling, disrespectful, etc., in which case I'd just say, "well, it's obvious we're not going to agree," and then file for divorce ASAP. Even if she does indicate a greater degree of remorse than previously, it's doubtful that she will go so far as to accept that what you expect of her is reasonable and tearfully commit to reconciliation and, in that event, I'd probably file before too long. But, who knows, maybe this will be a big enough 2x4 to get her to admit that she did wrong and needs to change and you can take a shot at reconciliation.
> 
> Bottom line, I don't see the two of you making progress unless you show her that you're prepared to end the marriage, and that means starting divorce proceedings. Of course, the risk of filing is that she will decide that she too wants a divorce but, if that what she does, you will know that it was only a matter of time before she would have filed or cheated again.
> 
> Either this or stay in the same place you're at and try to communicate better.


I think there is a great deal of truth in your analysis. That’s what I thought when I saw your post on Friday, and conversations over the weekend (which was a pretty crappy weekend) went along with your theory. I am reminded of the title of this thread…. which asks if is she in denial of what she really did, or is she still deceiving me to avoid having to deal with it. It seems that the answer is denial. I don’t really like either answer but knowing which one might give some insight in how to treat her. Unfortunately, as you said, we are really at an impasse unless one of us has a major change in their perspective about the EA. I do not see how that will be me. 

It is amazing how different the perspectives of the current environment are between myself and my wife. For me, I locked out one feature on her iPhone/iPad, insist (well, try to force) that she be transparent, have shown that I must choose what is best for me which may or may not be her, and have distanced myself so I can be protected from hurt and be in a more clear place for deciding my future. To my wife, it feels as though I am treating her (in her words) as “less than human” and almost in an oppressive manner. For her, one emotional aspect of her life gets transferred into ever part of her day. Because of the issue with the phone restrictions, because I am not showing love for her, her entire world is in turmoil. I really don’t get how me my lack of affection (given the circumstances) and blocking Facetime add up to me treating her so “terribly.” But that is how she is perceiving it. I get that my indecision on whether I want to be with her is going to cause some hurt for her, but it seems that it cuts through her in a very deep way. In any case, I’m not trying to say her perspective is invalid, just that I really don’t understand it. I just respond to things very differently than she does, and neither of us really understands where the other is coming from right now. 

I haven’t read “Way of the Superior Man” yet (but will soon), but I did find the following quote which sheds some insight on how my wife and I are very different. With all that I have seen lately, I think this description fits us very well. 

_Although you and your woman are equal beings, you are very different creatures. If she has a feminine sexual essence, her core will be fulfilled when love is flowing. For example, she can experience difficulties in her career, but if full love is flowing in her life – with her children, friends, and with you – then her core will be fulfilled. Not so for you. If you have a masculine essence, then your woman and children can be loving you all day and night, but if your career or mission is obstructed, you will not feel at ease. You won’t even want to share much intimate time with your woman until you have your career or mission back on track. Your woman’s core is fulfilled by love. Your core is released from stress by aligning your life with your mission.​_My wife is currently at a breaking point. Being with me while I’m not sure if I want to stay with her, is too painful for her. She acknowledges that it is my choice, and her reaction is her problem, but she can’t take being around me like this much longer. In other words, if I need more time to figure things out, we will need to do it separately for a while. So, this just adds time pressure to what is already a very difficult choice for me. You know you’re in a bad spot when none of the options seem appealing. In any case, the status quo can’t last much longer for either of us. I need to get off the fence soon as to whether I want to stay or go, so I can get in a place to get out of the EA battle one way or another (actually start trying to R, or proceed with D). I will hold off on applying the 2x4 until I at least know that I want to R. 

I will note that my wife has displayed some positive signs recently. She has been eating healthier, taking time to cook, and has been getting up earlier. I also saw on her browsing history where she did a job search for a therapist position. So, it does seem like some of the message has gotten through. We both need to get ourselves to a better place individually in order to develop a good relationship with each other. I think there is a realistic possibility that could happen for each of us. I just don’t know if we can get to those places with the other around.


----------



## bfree

It sounds to me like your wife has a very romaticized view of relationships. Its almost like she never matured since high school. Unless she feels "wanted" her entire being is threatened. I really don't see it as you and her having different viewpoint per se. I see it as you having a more realistic idea of relationships, love and trust and her trying to live in a Harlequin romance novel. Unless she can find a way to grow up I don't really see how you can get through to her and unfortunately even if you split up I don't see her changing her thought process as a result.


----------



## carmen ohio

island_of_one said:


> I think there is a great deal of truth in your analysis. That’s what I thought when I saw your post on Friday, and conversations over the weekend (which was a pretty crappy weekend) went along with your theory. I am reminded of the title of this thread…. which asks if is she in denial of what she really did, or is she still deceiving me to avoid having to deal with it. It seems that the answer is denial. I don’t really like either answer but knowing which one might give some insight in how to treat her. Unfortunately, as you said, *we are really at an impasse unless one of us has a major change in their perspective about the EA. I do not see how that will be me. *
> 
> It is amazing how different the perspectives of the current environment are between myself and my wife. For me, I locked out one feature on her iPhone/iPad, insist (well, try to force) that she be transparent, have shown that I must choose what is best for me which may or may not be her, and have distanced myself so I can be protected from hurt and be in a more clear place for deciding my future. To my wife, it feels as though I am treating her (in her words) as “less than human” and almost in an oppressive manner. For her, one emotional aspect of her life gets transferred into ever part of her day. Because of the issue with the phone restrictions, because I am not showing love for her, her entire world is in turmoil. I really don’t get how me my lack of affection (given the circumstances) and blocking Facetime add up to me treating her so “terribly.” But that is how she is perceiving it. I get that my indecision on whether I want to be with her is going to cause some hurt for her, but it seems that it cuts through her in a very deep way. In any case, I’m not trying to say her perspective is invalid, just that I really don’t understand it. *I just respond to things very differently than she does, and neither of us really understands where the other is coming from right now.*
> 
> I haven’t read “Way of the Superior Man” yet (but will soon), but I did find the following quote which sheds some insight on how my wife and I are very different. With all that I have seen lately, I think this description fits us very well.
> 
> _Although you and your woman are equal beings, you are very different creatures. If she has a feminine sexual essence, her core will be fulfilled when love is flowing. For example, she can experience difficulties in her career, but if full love is flowing in her life – with her children, friends, and with you – then her core will be fulfilled. Not so for you. If you have a masculine essence, then your woman and children can be loving you all day and night, but if your career or mission is obstructed, you will not feel at ease. You won’t even want to share much intimate time with your woman until you have your career or mission back on track. Your woman’s core is fulfilled by love. Your core is released from stress by aligning your life with your mission.​_*My wife is currently at a breaking point.* Being with me while I’m not sure if I want to stay with her, is too painful for her. She acknowledges that it is my choice, and her reaction is her problem, but she can’t take being around me like this much longer. *In other words, if I need more time to figure things out, we will need to do it separately for a while. So, this just adds time pressure to what is already a very difficult choice for me.* You know you’re in a bad spot when none of the options seem appealing. *In any case, the status quo can’t last much longer for either of us. I need to get off the fence soon as to whether I want to stay or go, so I can get in a place to get out of the EA battle one way or another (actually start trying to R, or proceed with D). I will hold off on applying the 2x4 until I at least know that I want to R. *
> 
> I will note that my wife has displayed some positive signs recently. She has been eating healthier, taking time to cook, and has been getting up earlier. I also saw on her browsing history where she did a job search for a therapist position. So, it does seem like some of the message has gotten through. We both need to get ourselves to a better place individually in order to develop a good relationship with each other. I think there is a realistic possibility that could happen for each of us. I just don’t know if we can get to those places with the other around.


Dear i_o_o,

I think we are saying much the same thing:

- You and your wife see the situation very differently,

- You aren't going to change your POV,

- She is at the breaking point,

- You are also dissatisfied with the current situation, so

- You need to make a decision whether to stay or go.

Again, my suggestion is to try to break the logjam in your favor (_i.e._, get your wife to start seeing things more from your POV) by acknowledging the foregoing and proposing the most obvious solution -- that you divorce.

It seems to me that, if you do this, one of two things will happen. Either this will snap her out of what bfree calls her romanticized view of relationships, in which case you can have a serious discussion about what it will take to reconcile (starting with her admission that she had an EA), or it will not, in which case you will know that there is probably nothing that is going to change her mind and you can then decide if you're willing to continue to be married to her.

There's an old expression on TAM that, to save your marriage, you have to be willing to lose it. In your case, I think it's more like, in order to decide if you _want_ to save your marriage, you have to know if your wife is capable of admitting and facing what she's done. You won't learn this unless you put the divorce option on the table.

I also think there's an advantage to you in suggesting divorce before she "breaks" and either files first or goes off the deep end somehow. In the former situation, you have a greater degree of control; in the latter, you are mainly responding to her decisions.

What I don't recommend is that you and your wife separate without having come to some kind of decision. My concern is that separation may result in your wife doing something inconsistent with her marriage vows and, while this would probably help make up your mind, it would be a terrible way to end your marriage and extremely hard on you. Better to decide now to divorce if you can't agree to reconcile. Who knows, if you start the divorce process, she may have a revelation and decide that she's prepared to do what's necessary to save her marriage, in which case you can always stop it.

Hope this is helpful.


----------



## island_of_one

She may already be getting that divorce is a real and eminent option. Either that, or just being really passive aggressive. 

We had taken the night off from having any conversations and watched some TV together before bed. Then, right after the lights are out, she says out of the blue “you’re going to miss me.” As in, she is assuming that we are going to split and that she hopes I will miss her when we are not together. She went on to say that she figures we must have already crossed over the line because all that she told me over the weekend didn’t seem to change anything. She wasn’t able to tell me what reaction she was expecting/hoping for from me. I told her I had not reached any conclusions yet. I did tell her something along the lines of what Carmen suggested. Her views on the EA seem set, mine are set, and the two don’t lead to a resolution. If something doesn’t change, we won’t make it. Her final comments for the night were that maybe we wouldn’t be able to resolve it, and that she felt bad that I thought her capable of wronging me so much to be worth all of this.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> She went on to say that she figures we must have already crossed over the line because all that she told me over the weekend didn’t seem to change anything.


Wow, she's pretty blantant with her attempts to manipulate you.

"So when I tried to manipulate you before, it didn't work. So we're done."

Read between the lines. She isn't going to change. Either you change or.....

Frankly I think your subconscious made your decision a few weeks ago. You are refusing to consciously acknowledge it. Everything you do is leading you directly on a path to divorce. You fail to act at times when you could lead your marriage to a more sucessful path (that is not a judgemental statement by the way, that is an objective observation...). Which brings me to:



island_of_one said:


> She may already be getting that divorce is a real and eminent option.


are YOU ready for divorce to be a real and eminent option??? 

Really????

Cause, I don't think you are. 

You need to start preparing now.

PS - you won't miss her nearly as much as she thinks you will :scratchhead:


----------



## tom67

island_of_one said:


> She may already be getting that divorce is a real and eminent option. Either that, or just being really passive aggressive.
> 
> We had taken the night off from having any conversations and watched some TV together before bed. Then, right after the lights are out, she says out of the blue “you’re going to miss me.” As in, she is assuming that we are going to split and that she hopes I will miss her when we are not together. She went on to say that she figures we must have already crossed over the line because all that she told me over the weekend didn’t seem to change anything. She wasn’t able to tell me what reaction she was expecting/hoping for from me. I told her I had not reached any conclusions yet. I did tell her something along the lines of what Carmen suggested. Her views on the EA seem set, mine are set, and the two don’t lead to a resolution. If something doesn’t change, we won’t make it. Her final comments for the night were that maybe we wouldn’t be able to resolve it, and that she felt bad that I thought her capable of wronging me so much to be worth all of this.


Tell her you will miss the person she once was and not the person she is today.


----------



## alte Dame

Independent of whether she believes she had an affair, your W very seriously took you for granted for a long time.

Now, when she suddenly realizes that she may have done permanent damage, she is so insecure that she requires that you provide her a guarantee before she really commits emotionally to you.

When she makes remarks like the remark last night in bed, she is fishing for reassurance, not telling you what she thinks the future will be. She is uttering her fear in the hope that you will tell her that you do not want to split up.

You may never get her understanding that she had an A. (My take on this has always been that her AP is pretty pathetic & not a real threat in terms of his intentions.) You can insist, though, that she understand that she took you for granted and wasn't, by any stretch of the imagination, a good, loving wife.

She clearly is very insecure and needs reassurance, which she doesn't deserve. But you can tell her that the odds are in her favor if she does certain things, that your preference is not to split up.


----------



## alte Dame

And p.s. - This is ALL about her ALL the time. If you want some real movement from her, she has to come out of her self-absorption.


----------



## carmen ohio

island_of_one said:


> She may already be getting that divorce is a real and eminent option. Either that, or just being really passive aggressive.
> 
> We had taken the night off from having any conversations and watched some TV together before bed. Then, right after the lights are out, she says out of the blue “you’re going to miss me.” As in, she is assuming that we are going to split and that she hopes I will miss her when we are not together. She went on to say that she figures we must have already crossed over the line because all that she told me over the weekend didn’t seem to change anything. She wasn’t able to tell me what reaction she was expecting/hoping for from me. I told her I had not reached any conclusions yet. I did tell her something along the lines of what Carmen suggested. Her views on the EA seem set, mine are set, and the two don’t lead to a resolution. If something doesn’t change, we won’t make it. *Her final comments for the night were that maybe we wouldn’t be able to resolve it, and that she felt bad that I thought her capable of wronging me so much to be worth all of this.*


Dear i_o_o,

She remains adamant that she did nothing wrong and it looks like the mere _possibility_ of divorce will not cause her to reevaluate her position.

If that's the case, then you have a decision to make: (1) accept her for what she is and try to live with that (at least for the time) being or (2) move to the next stage, file for divorce, and see if that causes her to reconsider.

If you take option 1, remember what you said about her being at the breaking point. Unless you want her to file for divorce or do something worse, you will need to start showing her affection. I gather from your previous posts that this will be hard for you.

If you take option 2, you will finally learn whether she is prepared to begin taking responsibility for her actions or not. I'd say it's 50/50. Maybe she really doesn't see anything wrong in what she's done, or maybe she is playing hardball with you to see if you really have the guts to end your marriage over this.

Think carefully about this. Going with option 1 will really empower her. From now on, she will feel that, whatever she does, as long as she thinks it's OK, you will (or have to) accept it. But going with option 2 means the real possibility that your marriage is over. Can you accept that?

I still think that your best course of action is to file for divorce, hope that gets her to start seeing things more reasonably but, as it may not, start planning a life without her.

But it's not my life, it's yours.


----------



## Fisherman

carmen ohio said:


> Dear i_o_o,
> 
> She remains adamant that she did nothing wrong and it looks like the mere _possibility_ of divorce will not cause her to reevaluate her position.
> 
> If that's the case, then you have a decision to make: (1) accept her for what she is and try to live with that (at least for the time) being or (2) move to the next stage, file for divorce, and see if that causes her to reconsider.
> 
> If you take option 1, remember what you said about her being at the breaking point. Unless you want her to file for divorce or do something worse, you will need to start showing her affection. I gather from your previous posts that this will be hard for you.
> 
> If you take option 2, you will finally learn whether she is prepared to begin taking responsibility for her actions or not. I'd say it's 50/50. Maybe she really doesn't see anything wrong in what she's done, or maybe she is playing hardball with you to see if you really have the guts to end your marriage over this.
> 
> Think carefully about this. Going with option 1 will really empower her. From now on, she will feel that, whatever she does, as long as she thinks it's OK, you will (or have to) accept it. But going with option 2 means the real possibility that your marriage is over. Can you accept that?
> 
> I still think that your best course of action is to file for divorce, hope that gets her to start seeing things more reasonably but, as it may not, start planning a life without her.
> 
> But it's not my life, it's yours.


I think you should go with Option 2, file and see if she reacts. If not move on.


----------



## Saki

You don't really need to get caught up on the word affair by the way.

1) She lied to you to protect her relationship with another man

2) She made her relationship with another man a higher priority than her marriage

3) She went to another man to fulfill her marital needs

These are 3 FACTS. The term you use to bundle them together really means nothing. In fact, arguing over semantics is a distraction tactic used to take your focus off of these 3 facts.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> Frankly I think your subconscious made your decision a few weeks ago. You are refusing to consciously acknowledge it. Everything you do is leading you directly on a path to divorce. You fail to act at times when you could lead your marriage to a more sucessful path (that is not a judgemental statement by the way, that is an objective observation...). Which brings me to:
> 
> are YOU ready for divorce to be a real and eminent option???
> 
> Really????
> 
> Cause, I don't think you are.
> 
> You need to start preparing now.
> 
> PS - you won't miss her nearly as much as she thinks you will :scratchhead:


Realistically, I guess I am not there 100% yet. It has been a process to get myself to where I am now… capable of deciding to divorce but not quite ready to pull the trigger. I have not yet prepared myself to tell my kids that they won’t have both parents living with them. 

I have two voices inside my head where are tearing at me. The subconscious voice that looks out for what I want says I should move on. That I have wanted more- someone more capable of keeping up with me, someone who contributes more to the marriage, someone more able to help me be the person I want to be. This voice has been saying it for a lot of years, but I never let myself listen to until recently. The other voice is the one that tells me what I "should" do. That a couple should try to keep the marriage until they have truly exhausted all efforts to make things work. That everybody else, especially my kids (7, 10yo), are better off with the marriage intact. That there is still a chance that I’ll be better off- if my wife and I can be the people we need to be. That life as a divorced parent isn't a bed of roses. 

I could certainly benefit from the perspective of those that have been in this place and can provide some insight on how things turned out. There is still some affection and attachment between us, but I don't know if that is enough. 

Filing for divorce may very well be the best option in either case (stay or go), but I need know going in what outcome I am hoping for.


----------



## alte Dame

I think that balancing the voices in our heads is something we all do. I'm definitely someone who weighs things rather than reflexively views them in black/white terms.

Up until recently, ioo, you were focused on forcing your W to face up to her bad behavior with her OM. This took center stage for you for a long time.

Now, she's finally acquiesced & suddenly you have the new reality to deal with & what exactly is that? It's the vista of the rest of your life. 

So, your decisions now are momentous for you and, in my opinion, you should weigh them carefully and take your time.

From what you've written, however, I think your W has a lot of work to do to make her a good spouse for you & this isn't just in the infidelity department. To me, it sounds like the scale is weighted on the side of divorce, especially since she remains so self-absorbed.

Ask yourself how you envisage a happy life for yourself 5 or 10 years from now. Then ask yourself what kind of partner your W would have to be to be contributing to that happy picture. Then ask yourself what the odds are that she can or will do that.

Start thinking very seriously about your goals for the future for yourself. It's not selfish to do that. You can be a good, responsible man & still want happiness for yourself.


----------



## Fisherman

alte Dame said:


> I think that balancing the voices in our heads is something we all do. I'm definitely someone who weighs things rather than reflexively views them in black/white terms.
> 
> Up until recently, ioo, you were focused on forcing your W to face up to her bad behavior with her OM. This took center stage for you for a long time.
> 
> Now, she's finally acquiesced & suddenly you have the new reality to deal with & what exactly is that? It's the vista of the rest of your life.
> 
> So, your decisions now are momentous for you and, in my opinion, you should weigh them carefully and take your time.
> 
> From what you've written, however, I think your W has a lot of work to do to make her a good spouse for you & this isn't just in the infidelity department. To me, it sounds like the scale is weighted on the side of divorce, especially since she remains so self-absorbed.
> 
> Ask yourself how you envisage a happy life for yourself 5 or 10 years from now. Then ask yourself what kind of partner your W would have to be to be contributing to that happy picture. Then ask yourself what the odds are that she can or will do that.
> 
> Start thinking very seriously about your goals for the future for yourself. It's not selfish to do that. You can be a good, responsible man & still want happiness for yourself.


I agree


----------



## Saki

You deserve to be happy.

You deserve to be a role model for your children, to show them how to stand up for the things they want and need.

Do you want your 7 year old to be in the kind of marriage you have now? Is crappy but together what you dream of for them?


----------



## island_of_one

Well, I am still living la vida limbo. And, limbo does suck…or at least the not being able to decide part sucks. No real movement lately. I am still really torn, and she is still really hurting about me not knowing if I want to stay with her or not. 

I saw MC#3 yesterday on my own. For the most part, he seems pretty good. He’s very familiar HN,HN and 5LL, and I agreed with a lot of what he said about improving relationships. However, he was not helpful at all wrt to me making a choice. I was hoping for some perspective on how to decide to stay or go, but I didn’t get that from him. 

Wife and I talked for a while last night. As usual, it wasn’t too productive. Her big thing is that she can’t take being in the current situation for much longer. She is pushing to separate while I decide what I want to do. Her hope is that, in the end, I’ll decide that I want to be stay with her. She now understands that a lot of my dilemma is not having a crystal ball on how much she’ll be able to change, or how much we’ll be able to change in our relationship, or how my views/needs may difference once I’ve had some time to work out my issues. 

I don’t know if she’ll be able to change enough. She doesn’t seem to be very motivated to change. She says she is pretty OK with how she is. She acknowledges that there is room for growth by finding a hobby/passion and by getting a job. She is certainly not at the point where she is looking inward to try to understand what behaviors she has that contributed to our problems. Her position (which is that she’s in pretty good shape and that I’m the one with most of the work to do) doesn’t provide a lot of hope for a better future. She just doesn’t respond to anything in the way I expect. If she were the one trying to decide on me, I’d at least be trying to offer up something to encourage her to stay with me. The fact that I am close to walking out doesn’t motivate her to look at herself or change anything. She just walls up inside her own hurt. She basically wants something akin to unconditional love and trust (i.e. constant acceptance, assurance that I love her just as she is, etc). 

There is still the EA to deal with as well. She doesn’t provide much hope on that either. Still bristles the first time in a conversation that I use the word affair. Still takes issue with the control I exerted trying to get her to be transparent. I don’t get why it is so hard for her to understand how to rebuild trust. She just wants me to choose to trust her and move on. I previously mentioned the iPad incident where she wanted me to let her reset her iPad to factory default with all data removed. Turns out that she had tried herself before discovering that the user restriction code prevented it. She knew that I considered deleting texts or internet history to be a breach of trust, but she somehow thought it was OK to wipeout all data from her iPad. WTH? She continues to be upset with me and argue about it weeks later…even on the same day when I finally turned off all other restrictions.

Tonight I plan to spell out in more detail what I am dissatisfied with regarding the marriage and her, and try to explain why a good future is so in doubt in my mind.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> You deserve to be happy.
> 
> You deserve to be a role model for your children, to show them how to stand up for the things they want and need.
> 
> Do you want your 7 year old to be in the kind of marriage you have now? Is crappy but together what you dream of for them?


I agree that I don’t want the marriage, as it has been in recent years, to be an example for my kids to learn from. I do want them to see an example of standing up for what is needed and for taking ownership of one’s own happiness. I think the kids would also benefit from their mom being a better role model. 

The flip side is that I never did a good job expressing to my wife what my needs were or to what extent they were not being met. Now, that I have done that, do I simply move on before giving her a _chance_ to become a stronger partner? 

I also struggle to gauge how I may feel different once I have improved myself. Once I’ve taken charge of my own fulfillment, maybe I won’t need to set the bar too high for my wife to achieve.


----------



## bandit.45

Doesn"t sound like she wants to examine herself or do any heavy lifting, which begs the question of how much she really values you. Oh I think she values the marital arrangement and wants to stay married...but you and your needs are none of her concern. 

Shoot this horse. Its legs are broken and its in misery.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## island_of_one

alte Dame said:


> Up until recently, ioo, you were focused on forcing your W to face up to her bad behavior with her OM. This took center stage for you for a long time. Now, she's finally acquiesced & suddenly you have the new reality to deal with & what exactly is that? It's the vista of the rest of your life. So, your decisions now are momentous for you and, in my opinion, you should weigh them carefully and take your time.


You're exactly right. Until I got to the point of letting myself consider my needs and my future, I didn't let myself question how well she fits into the future of happy-me. Unfortunately, when I starting thinking in those terms, a lot of doubt arose. 



alte Dame said:


> From what you've written, however, I think your W has a lot of work to do to make her a good spouse for you & this isn't just in the infidelity department. To me, it sounds like the scale is weighted on the side of divorce, especially since she remains so self-absorbed.
> 
> Ask yourself how you envisage a happy life for yourself 5 or 10 years from now. Then ask yourself what kind of partner your W would have to be to be contributing to that happy picture. Then ask yourself what the odds are that she can or will do that..


This is where it gets really hard. Right now it is very hard to say what the likelihood of significant change is (after last night, the odds certainly went down). And even once I establish some sort of probability, where do I draw the line? If there is still some small chance, is it worth the effort and heartache to try? Or, at a low enough probability, do I just call it off and move on?


----------



## Saki

You know this, but you are the only one capable of making that decision.

I personally decided the possibility of full recovery was worth the investment and heartache (both potential and inevidible). I was capable of envisioning my wife fulfillign my needs. Without that visualization, goal, to work towards, I don't think I coulda done it.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. DO NOT SEPARATE with a wife who has been unfaithful.


----------



## alte Dame

From the female perspective, ioo, your W sounds like she does not want to make herself vulnerable in any way. She doesn't want to agree to change herself if there's a chance that you won't be there in the end for her. (How ironic after her EA that she is so desperate inside about losing you - and she appears desperate no matter the words that come out of her mouth.)

She needs reassurance before she commits to change, it seems. It also seems that she has pride, so she won't prostrate herself to get that reassurance.

You're proposing big changes. Have you thought about small things with deadlines attached? Tell her that if she makes the effort to do A or B within the next few months that you can give her the assurance she needs that you're not on the fence anymore?


----------



## SadandAngry

Hmm, I'd say the pain of staying the same is less in her perception than the pain of change, and she is trying to threaten you into settling for not changing. The irony is that you could both change and make your marriage much better working together. You'd have to become vulnerable to each other though. Neither of you seem willing to take the risk first. By rights, it would seem she ought to be the one to go first, but it probably won't happen. Someone selfish enough to cheat just won't make that leap without a huge push I think.

You are going to need to make your choice, and do so with imperfect information. No councellor can tell you what the right thing to do is, esp. if you don't know. Do you want your marriage to survive or not? If so, then how badly? If so, what have you got to lose by going all in? Either it will get better, or it won't, but you can say you honestly tried. Sitting in limbo waiting for your wife to do whatever will likely just drag out the slow, and probably increasingly bitter death of your marriage.


----------



## Chaparral

I think this is one of those threads where you should bring your wife to this forum. Hearing it from the forum group may get through to her. I think she is stuck and doesn't realize how she has damaged you.

Reading other threads that explains you are not the only ones that have reconcilef over an EA could bring you back together and save another family with kids.

If you do , go back and check you posts to see if you neef to delete/edit your posts.


----------



## iheartlife

chapparal said:


> I think this is one of those threads where you should bring your wife to this forum. Hearing it from the forum group may get through to her. I think she is stuck and doesn't realize how she has damaged you.
> 
> Reading other threads that explains you are not the only ones that have reconcilef over an EA could bring you back together and save another family with kids.
> 
> If you do , go back and check you posts to see if you neef to delete/edit your posts.


I agree entirely. Her AP is in Germany, and the likelihood of her leaving you for him is virtually nil. Maybe when she starts to understand the level of pain she's caused, through the voices of others, she may start to understand what she ought to be doing, but isn't.


----------



## island_of_one

OK- this is me trying to look at the situation from an outsider’s perspective and give myself some logical advice. 

_She not shown much inclination, or ability, to look at herself and determine what needs to change. Or even to show signs of taking responsibility for her actions. So, the chances of re-creating a fulfilling marriage are not great. However, the odds are certainly greater than zero. Given the long history together (which are generally viewed more positive than negative) and two young children, it would make sense to at least try to reconcile. At least give each other some time to make improvements. It seems premature to walk away at this point, based primarily on a low probability of her changing and an underlying pull to pursue someone better suited (i.e. grass is greener syndrome). Potentially greener pastures will still be there if things don’t work out. But pulling the plug now will have permanent consequences for many._ 

Now I’ll just have to see if I can listen to my logical self.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> I've said it before, I'll say it again. DO NOT SEPARATE with a wife who has been unfaithful.


I get that a risk in separation after infidelity is for the WS to continue or restart their affair. Is there more to the objection to separating? 

In our case, there are some potential benefits. Right now, time together can often mean feeling worse about each other. Some time apart could keep things from getting worse. For me, I am much more at ease when she isn’t around. I can much better focus on what I need to be doing to work on my issues. Again, time apart has some benefits. For her, she needs to have something drive her to being more independent, working on self-esteem, and getting out to interact with the rest of the world. Being separated would provide a lot of motivation for her to do these things. It would hopefully provide more of a wakeup call (or a 2x4!) than the possibility of divorce. The question becomes whether the benefits outweigh the risk of one of us stepping out of bounds while we are apart. As iheartlife suggested, the risk of my wife leaving is very low.

The option of filing for a divorce has been suggested. I believe that filing for divorce, as an effort to get her to change, will not be effective. She will just be hurt and give up. Given what I have seen of her, I consider that option to be a last resort right now (though it may yet come to that some months down the road).


----------



## island_of_one

iheartlife said:


> I agree entirely. Her AP is in Germany, and the likelihood of her leaving you for him is virtually nil. Maybe when she starts to understand the level of pain she's caused, through the voices of others, she may start to understand what she ought to be doing, but isn't.


Not sure I am ready to bring her into this thread. Perhaps showing her threads of similar situations would be helpful. I believe she is still willing to go again to MC. The MC I met this week seemed to get EA's, so perhaps he can help get her to starting opening her eyes a little.


----------



## Chaparral

The odds of separating help any marriage is about 4 to 1 against. 80 percent of couples who separTe end up divorced. From what you say , I think it would definitely destroy your marriage.

I believe your wife thinks you want out and this would just prove that.

If you want to make something work, work on it, don't run away from it.

What books have the two of you read?


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, the reason I suggested you bring your wife to this thread is that the two of you seem to be at an impasse and not getting anywhere. 
That means eventual failure. You are talking past each other , and as with most cases, the real problem is communication and antagonisim.


----------



## Saki

Here's why you shouldn't separate:

You don't trust your wife. She hasn't earned your trust.

So what if she goes and lives in a different house (or vice versa). Where do you think YOUR mind is going to go? 

Nothing she can say or do will relieve the paranoia and doubt you'll face. 

It will amplify all the pain and discomfort you are dealing with now.

Right now your marriage is slowly spiraling away. Separation will cause an immediate crash and burn.


----------



## Saki

I wanted to put this in a separate post:

You are still too focused on her. 

You are taking EXACTLY the same stance she is, yet you come here and complain about what she is doing.

YOU NEED TO MAKE A DECISION. Then you need to jump with both feet into whatever path you choose.

If you choose to stay in the marriage, you need to lead, by example, through your ACTIONS, her to the marriage YOU WANT. You will not receive any guarantee. You have no assurance she will not stray again. You need to give up control. Go watch Fight Club, watch the scene on the highway where Tyler Durden causes a "near life experience". It's the most impactful, inspiration movie scene I've ever watched.

You need to be vulnerable to her. Big change results from hundreds of tiny little changes. 

Read The Way of the Superior Man. A great quote that applies here is "you were born a sacrifice".

Be the f8cking man you want to be and quit p0ssy footing around.

You have an opportunity to control your life, to become a leader in your marriage or demonstrate to your kids how important your happiness is to you.

Stop wasting this, stop letting it go down the drain. Action is masculine!

DO SOMETHING


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> You are taking EXACTLY the same stance she is, yet you come here and complain about what she is doing.
> 
> YOU NEED TO MAKE A DECISION. Then you need to jump with both feet into whatever path you choose.
> 
> Be the f8cking man you want to be and quit p0ssy footing around.
> 
> Stop wasting this, stop letting it go down the drain. Action is masculine!
> 
> DO SOMETHING


Come on, don’t hold back. Let me know what you really think. 

I did decide that I am going to try to save my marriage. I had pretty much convinced myself at the time I posted last Friday, and I finally had the conversation with my wife last night. Our talk last night went about as well as any other lately, but I did express my commitment to give it my best to work things out. My indecision over the last few weeks has certainly done some damage, but I don’t think it can’t be overcome. There are other things that will be bigger hurdles; her attitude about the EA, unrealistic expectations for unconditional love, our dysfunctional codependent/parent-child interactions, and the baggage each of bring that creates dysfunction patterns. 

Right now, I don’t have that much confidence that things will get to a good point, but I am going to give my best shot. As has been stated before- it will either work, or it won’t. Either way, I am ready to move forward. I am going to stop worrying about what she can or wants to change. I will leave that for her to figure out (along with a suitable MC and IC). I am going to return to trying to focus on improving my issues and start working on the boundaries I need in place for my growth and improvement.


----------



## SadandAngry

Good to hear. I will recommend a few books for you:

Fight less, Love more by Laurie Puhn. It will give you good tips on little things to do everyday. They seem small, but those little daily things will make a huge difference.

Divorce Busting, by Michelle Weiner Davis. You'll see you aren't alone, and also how things you do unilaterally can change the whole dynamic of the marriage.

The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, John Gottman. Just a good marriage workbook for both of you to go through together.

Read those, and that's a good start.


----------



## Saki

Ok awesome. :smthumbup:

You are setting the stage for progress.

Now you need to lead by example. 

1 day at a time. Even better, 1 minute at a time.

What is it that you need to put the EA behind you and for your wife to earn your forgiveness?


----------



## Saki

SadandAngry said:


> Good to hear. I will recommend a few books for you:


I would suggest that the IOO needs to prioritize his self help reading.

Right now, there is little room for progress in the marriage. One way for growth to occur in the marriage is through IOO's personal growth.

For that reason, I'd START with more personalized, male spirituality, self help books. That's not to say throw away the idea of marriage focused self help nor dispute the specific recommendations, but I do think that will be more useful in a few months than it would be right now.

This marriage has likely zapped A LOT out of IOO and working on himself gives him a bit of a break to recharge, and he'll be a stronger, healthier person when he starts to focus more on the marriage. 

Just food for thought.


----------



## SadandAngry

Those books are for his own growth too. I read them in the immediate aftermath of discovering my wife's affair. I found concrete examples of the sorts of things I needed to do. Both for me, and for her. To reaffirm my self, and to shatter the misconceptions she had developed. It helped clear her fog, got her reinvested in the marriage too. Which was good.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> What is it that you need to put the EA behind you and for your wife to earn your forgiveness?


My needs from her for being able to forgive, and to start trusting again:

- Start behaving in an open and completely honest manner
- Show remorse for her actions during EA
- Provide details on what she lied about or intentionally withheld, and things she did/feelings she had that weren’t appropriate for a married woman
- Take initiative in behaving in a transparent manner
- A general change in attitude wrt to EA. Accept her past behavior as infidelity. Let go of need to rugsweep. Show understanding of the damage to our relationship that resulted from the EA. Show understanding that she needs to earn trust. 
- Show understanding that it is reasonable for me to need the above. 

Am I out of line on these?


----------



## island_of_one

Here is my upcoming book list

1-	Way of the Superior Man (I’m about halfway thru right now)
2-	Re-read NMMNG and start implementing some breaking free actions
3-	TBD books an articles, blogs, etc on the following topics (I have some suggestions already):
o	Breaking codependency; building self-esteeem
o	Setting boundaries in relationships
o	Mindfulness
4-	Seven Principles (already have the book, but haven’t read yet)

The Divorce Remedy is one I have been considering (I think it is an update version of Divorce Busting) as well. 

I have already read:
-	His Needs/Her Needs, Five Love Languages, Not Just Friends, NMMNG, Married Man Sex Life Primer

My wife has read HN/HN, 5LL, and one chapter of NJF. But really, she hasn’t shown any ability to read and gain insight from anything she has read from these. So, I don’t think it counts. She must just have a different learning style (or doesn’t have an emotional learning style yet). Hopefully, a counselor will be able to get through to her. I certainly can’t, so I am going to stop trying for the most part. I do not anticipate being able to clear her of misconceptions.


----------



## Saki

Suggest Codependent No More by Melonie Beattie for emotional empowerment


----------



## bfree

Believe it or not I've read every book on your list and every book that others have suggested. They're all good but I'm going to take a different route. I'm going to suggest a few blogs. I like blogs. They're quick to read. Most are very entertaining. And they diseminate information in a more concentrated way.

The Red Pill Room

Hawaiian libertarian

Average Married Dad

The Private Man

The Badger Hut | History, Culture and the Modern SMP


----------



## island_of_one

Well, nothing good to report here. Conservations at home are still pointless (which is why I don’t initiate them right now). She wants love, trust, respect to be there before moving forward and isn’t generally too enthused about our prospects. She was devastated by my indecision but not excited now that I’m in. I still need her to change her attitude about the EA…to show remorse and take responsibility for her actions. I am also struggling to find time to work on my stuff, or get anything else done for that matter. Perhaps the first thing I need to study is improving time management. 

We met with MC#3 today...which was a disaster. I am still pissed off! The guy seems to get how things should work in principle, but he just spits out stories and general ideas and doesn’t really engage into our specifics. He’s a bit older and tends to ramble a lot. Most damaging is he doesn’t like to deal with the past. In our case, he thinks I don’t need to know details or insist my wife be completely open and honest about the EA. He tells my wife she needs to display trusting behavior, but then thinks I’m out of line for being irritated that she tried to wipe out all iPad data. At this point, I really don’t see how to move things forward in a positive manner. I suppose the mood at home would improve if I just ignore the EA ever happened and pretend that I still adore and admire my wife just the way she is. But that won’t get us anywhere in the end.


----------



## island_of_one

island_of_one said:


> My needs from her for being able to forgive, and to start trusting again:
> 
> - Start behaving in an open and completely honest manner
> - Show remorse for her actions during EA
> - Provide details on what she lied about or intentionally withheld, and things she did/feelings she had that weren’t appropriate for a married woman
> - Take initiative in behaving in a transparent manner
> - A general change in attitude wrt to EA. Accept her past behavior as infidelity. Let go of need to rugsweep. Show understanding of the damage to our relationship that resulted from the EA. Show understanding that she needs to earn trust.
> - Show understanding that it is reasonable for me to need the above.
> 
> Am I out of line on these?


Are my expectations unreasonable? Do I just need to accept that she's not going to behave how I expect? My gut still tells me that she is just trying to protect herself and is refusing to open up.


----------



## DavidWYoung

Send her to Germany, it is "Colder than a Witch's Breast" here right now! One way ticket.

She will not get any work here. She will beg to return to USA. FAT CHANCE BIT%H!


----------



## bfree

island_of_one said:


> Well, nothing good to report here. Conservations at home are still pointless (which is why I don’t initiate them right now). She wants love, trust, respect to be there before moving forward and isn’t generally too enthused about our prospects. She was devastated by my indecision but not excited now that I’m in. I still need her to change her attitude about the EA…to show remorse and take responsibility for her actions. I am also struggling to find time to work on my stuff, or get anything else done for that matter. Perhaps the first thing I need to study is improving time management.
> 
> We met with MC#3 today...which was a disaster. I am still pissed off! The guy seems to get how things should work in principle, but he just spits out stories and general ideas and doesn’t really engage into our specifics. He’s a bit older and tends to ramble a lot. Most damaging is he doesn’t like to deal with the past. In our case, he thinks I don’t need to know details or insist my wife be completely open and honest about the EA. He tells my wife she needs to display trusting behavior, but then thinks I’m out of line for being irritated that she tried to wipe out all iPad data. At this point, I really don’t see how to move things forward in a positive manner. I suppose the mood at home would improve if I just ignore the EA ever happened and pretend that I still adore and admire my wife just the way she is. But that won’t get us anywhere in the end.


Next MC session simply tell him that he may be a man that doesn't need to address past issues but YOU aren't that kind of man. Ask him how you are supposed to forgive her for what she's done when you aren't allowed to learn the details of exactly what it is you'll be forgiving. Tell him if he insists that his way is the only way to fix this marriage then you will end the marriage and end the MC sessions. When they see that they won't be getting paid anymore that usually motivates them into dealing with the issues instead of trying to rugsweep them.


----------



## alte Dame

island_of_one said:


> Are my expectations unreasonable? Do I just need to accept that she's not going to behave how I expect? My gut still tells me that she is just trying to protect herself and is refusing to open up.


Your expectations are not only reasonable, they are baseline, in my opinion.

And yes, you may need to accept that she simply won't behave the way you expect. You don't have to live with it, though. You can choose not to. Your W seems to need to insist that things are done her way. That's fine for her, but nobody died and left her boss. Your life is your life.


----------



## Fisherman

"You don't have to live with it, though. You can choose not to."

This is the gist of it. What do you want? You can't change her, you can only change yourself. Your expectations are not unreasonable but she has a choice to meet those and she is not willing.


----------



## island_of_one

Jkw4338 said:


> Your expectations are not unreasonable but she has a choice to meet those and she is not willing.


My wife’s claim is that she not unwilling. She just doesn’t know how to or doesn’t have the ability to do so. I still think this is BS, but that’s her story.


----------



## bfree

island_of_one said:


> My wife’s claim is that she not unwilling. She just doesn’t know how to or doesn’t have the ability to do so. I still think this is BS, but that’s her story.


Another story eh. Seems like all you get is stories.


----------



## alte Dame

Please forgive and correct me if I am misremembering, but isn't your W the woman who doesn't seem to have much ambition or energy? The one who is not easily motivated or interested in doing new things? Doing much of anything?

If I haven't confused this with another thread, then I would say at this point that she is either very lazy or very afraid.


----------



## island_of_one

alte Dame said:


> Please forgive and correct me if I am misremembering, but isn't your W the woman who doesn't seem to have much ambition or energy? The one who is not easily motivated or interested in doing new things? Doing much of anything?
> 
> If I haven't confused this with another thread, then I would say at this point that she is either very lazy or very afraid.


You are remembering correctly. Low energy and little ambition. I don't think she is a lazy person at her core, but she does struggle mightily with energy level and motivation. 

So, I'd say afraid is the more likely of the two. Though, I'm not clear on what she's afraid of. She likely more scared of being on her own than not being with me specifically. But, her actions don't go along with either of these reasons. Perhaps she is just afraid of further damage to her self-esteem.


----------



## alte Dame

island_of_one said:


> You are remembering correctly. Low energy and little ambition. I don't think she is a lazy person at her core, but she does struggle mightily with energy level and motivation.
> 
> So, I'd say afraid is the more likely of the two. Though, I'm not clear on what she's afraid of. She likely more scared of being on her own than not being with me specifically. But, her actions don't go along with either of these reasons. Perhaps she is just afraid of further damage to her self-esteem.


When I say afraid, I mean more the fear of moving life to its next phase, the fear of accepting that one phase of life is over and the next one has to be defined by you in order to be meaningful. Many women flounder with this process. They can have a hard time being proactive.

Think the mother who was a SAHM and then the children are all now in school all day, or the W who has had an active career and now is staying at home with a baby, or the woman going through menopause and rethinking her whole sexual self. 

Without some direction, these phase changes can be paralyzing. Some women just sit there bewildered, not knowing what they should be doing and not liking any of the suggestions of well-meaning people.

This will be a question out of the blue for you, but there is method to it - Does your W download lots of cheap romance novels onto a reader & then get absorbed in them?


----------



## island_of_one

alte Dame said:


> When I say afraid, I mean more the fear of moving life to its next phase, the fear of accepting that one phase of life is over and the next one has to be defined by you in order to be meaningful. Many women flounder with this process. They can have a hard time being proactive.
> 
> Think the mother who was a SAHM and then the children are all now in school all day, or the W who has had an active career and now is staying at home with a baby, or the woman going through menopause and rethinking her whole sexual self.
> 
> Without some direction, these phase changes can be paralyzing. Some women just sit there bewildered, not knowing what they should be doing and not liking any of the suggestions of well-meaning people.
> 
> This will be a question out of the blue for you, but there is method to it - Does your W download lots of cheap romance novels onto a reader & then get absorbed in them?


She has enjoyed a few (~5) romance novels in the last couple months, which has been a bit out of character. Each time she gets through the book in a day or two. A few months ago she quickly read through the 50 shades series.


----------



## island_of_one

bfree said:


> Another story eh. Seems like all you get is stories.


Except for the one true story that I need to hear from her.


----------



## alte Dame

I'd be curious. If you checked her electronic library, you might find more.

What about music? Does she have guilty pleasures that are mostly songs/voices of attractive, sexy men?

Does she get on a bandwagon with personalities? For instance, does she decide that she loves one actor and then devour anything he is in?


----------



## island_of_one

alte Dame said:


> I'd be curious. If you checked her electronic library, you might find more.
> 
> What about music? Does she have guilty pleasures that are mostly songs/voices of attractive, sexy men?
> 
> Does she get on a bandwagon with personalities? For instance, does she decide that she loves one actor and then devour anything he is in?


Haven't seen any other books in her library. I would also get a receipt notice if she was purchasing books. Right now, she'll pick up one from the teacher's lounge each week when she's at the school volunteering. 

I'd have to answer no on the guilty pleasure music and personality bandwagon. Not that I've seen anyway...


----------



## alte Dame

Well, that's almost too bad. That would have been an easy explanation, since all of those behaviors are essentially husband-substitutes, so if you can ease them out, the wife can refocus on more directly applicable things.

So, I keep coming back to her being afraid of putting herself out there to you, being vulnerable, without real security that you won't, in the end, leave her.

Perhaps you could make a list of real, but small tasks that she could start with that you help you move her in baby steps in the direction you prefer. She's had to end things mit ihrem besten Freund, so she must have time.


----------



## SadandAngry

island_of_one said:


> My wife’s claim is that she not unwilling. She just doesn’t know how to or doesn’t have the ability to do so. I still think this is BS, but that’s her story.


That right there is an open invitation for you to give her concrete things to do. Start small, as suggested and go from there.


----------



## Saki

island_of_one said:


> So, I'd say afraid is the more likely of the two. Though, I'm not clear on what she's afraid of.


Dude she's afraid of being wrong! She's afraid of taking responsibility for having hurt you. She's afraid of the negative connotation of being a cheater. 

She's afraid of damaging her ego. That's what ALL the crap that is associated with infidelity is about. If a cheater has to admit they lied, cheated, etc etc then their ego has to bear the responsibility.

All the gaslighting, maritial history rewritting, blame shifting, etc is a subconscious method of deflecting any negative associations from their ego.

They must justify their actions. Otherwise they are "bad people".

So about the list of things to do, my MC suggested that. So I did it.

And sat around and watched my wife do none of those things. Then I got upset about that, voiced it to my wife who blantantly refused to do any of them. Then voiced it to my MC who told me I was being unreasonable by trying to force my wife into earning my trust "my way". 

Which, 1, peeved me off even more at the MC especially, but b, is a reasonable point.

Human nature: when you tell someone to do something, their natural response is defiance. Sometimes a more effective approach is to give them a destination and let them find their own road there.

I don't know what the right answer is. But I caution that if you give her a grocery list of things to do to earn your trust, you MAY do nothing more than push her away. She already seems to be extremely defensive - pushing harder may not accomplish anything.

Again I don't have the answer for you. But one thing you might do, which will save you a whole lot of inner termoil, is just tell her:

I don't trust you

It's your job to earn my trust

I will not be married to a woman whom I do not trust.

Then let go of the outcome. Get on with your life. Give her space and opportunity to join you. If she refuses, follow through with the appropriate actions.


----------



## SadandAngry

Saki has made some excellent points. Who knows which approach is the exact right one for you and your wife? It probably would be best to ask her if she would like some suggestions before giving her a list, then if she is agreeable, give her a couple choices to work with first.


----------



## alte Dame

I don't suggest a list of things to do to earn your trust. I suggest a (mental) list of things to do to get her out in the world a bit or find some things that she likes. Taking a walk every day, going to the gym, finding something, anything that will mean that she's not just a lump sitting around not knowing what to do with her life.

It's fine if her lifestyle right now is a perfect match for yours, but it sounds like that's far from true. She spent an inordinate amount of time on her EA. You say you are an active man who would like a W who takes an interest in things. Pushing her to do something, just a small thing, to change her inertia isn't unreasonable or unrealistic, in my opinion.


----------



## carmen ohio

island_of_one said:


> Except for the one true story that I need to hear from her.


Dear i_o_o,

What reason have you given your WW to tell you the real story? She's repeatedly dissed you and gotten away with it. Now you're in MC but MC only works when both parties are committed to changing in order to have a good marriage. From what you say about her, it doesn't seem that she really wants to change anything or that she knows what a good marriage is all about.

I and others have advised you that your best bet at getting your WW's attention and learning if she is capable of being the kind of wife you want and deserve is to present her with the possibility of it ending. Here's what I said way back in November:

_"I give your marriage a low chance surviving; not because of your WW's anger over your telling her that she has to end it with the OM to save her marriage but because you still haven't expressed to her your resolve to either have her completely to yourself (and that means not only breaking it off with the OM but also behaving towards you in the manner of a loyal and loving wife) or to leave her. Until you present her with this choice in a stark and compelling manner, she will continue to resent you and equivocate on her commitment to you. Once she understands this, however, she will be forced to make a decision and, chances are, she will choose you. If she doesn't, at least you will know where you stand and can start to prepare for your future without her (again, assuming you really to have the courage to follow through)."_

Because you have not forced her to make a choice between staying married or getting divorced, she can have all the benefits of being a married woman without having to act like one. If you can live with that, fine. If you can't, do something to shake her out of her emotional stupor.

You've been complaining for three months now about how bad your marriage is and how unwilling your WW is do anything to fix it. Isn't it time you stopped complaining and started doing something differently?


----------



## 2galsmom

.


----------



## island_of_one

carmen ohio said:


> Because you have not forced her to make a choice between staying married or getting divorced, she can have all the benefits of being a married woman without having to act like one. If you can live with that, fine. If you can't, do something to shake her out of her emotional stupor.
> 
> You've been complaining for three months now about how bad your marriage is and how unwilling your WW is do anything to fix it. Isn't it time you stopped complaining and started doing something differently?


I agree completely- I need to do something different. Though I may still come here to complain sometimes.  I don’t really have other good options for voicing complaints (note my user name). 

During my month of indecision, it seemed like my wife got the message that I am ready to end it. Her self-defeatist attitude helped to reach the conclusion that I was going to walk away before I had reached any conclusion. She seemed to accept it as inevitable. I just don’t think she is capable of considering change, on her behalf, right now no matter what I do. Filing for divorce would likely have the same effect as what I have already done (i.e. no immediate change). Right now, I believe that she would accept the divorce before changing her perspective. But, I suspect that after a few weeks/months of us being apart, she might finally have some awakening and start to accept what she’s done and take responsibility. 

For a while (i.e. weeks), I can live with her still being in her emotional stupor. I can give her some time and space to see if she becomes interested in working through her own issues. If she can bring herself to work on things, then healing will be easier without the stigma of divorce papers being involved. If not, then it will be time to take more drastic measures.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> Dude she's afraid of being wrong! She's afraid of taking responsibility for having hurt you. She's afraid of the negative connotation of being a cheater.
> 
> She's afraid of damaging her ego. That's what ALL the crap that is associated with infidelity is about. If a cheater has to admit they lied, cheated, etc etc then their ego has to bear the responsibility.
> 
> All the gaslighting, maritial history rewritting, blame shifting, etc is a subconscious method of deflecting any negative associations from their ego.
> 
> They must justify their actions. Otherwise they are "bad people".


I think you are exactly right. This is why she is stuck in guilt mode and not able to move on to remorse (good article on the difference: The difference between guilt and remorse ). For me right now, the lack of remorse part is even a bigger deal than the trust issue. Until she is able to deal with her emotions from the EA, I don’t see how the two of us will be able to move forward. 



Saki said:


> Again I don't have the answer for you. But one thing you might do, which will save you a whole lot of inner termoil, is just tell her:
> 
> I don't trust you
> 
> It's your job to earn my trust
> 
> I will not be married to a woman whom I do not trust.
> 
> Then let go of the outcome. Get on with your life. Give her space and opportunity to join you. If she refuses, follow through with the appropriate actions.


Here is my plan at the moment:

- Give her the high level things that need to happen for reconciliation to have a chance (remorse, trust, self-reflection, full disclosure, etc) and tell it is up to her to figure out how. Give her the space to figure out how (if!) she wants to pursue accomplishing them. And then not concern myself about what she is doing (i.e. let go). If she wants to actually go out with friends, or do things for herself, then great. Or just sit in a stupor, then great. If she wants to erase her ipad, so be it. It is up to her to do the necessary things…. or not. 

- Focus my efforts in the coming weeks on getting my proverbial house in order. Organize what I’ve left in a mess, decide on the things that are awaiting a decision, take care of the more urgent projects that I’ve been neglecting (due to distraction, etc). These are things that I have been weak on accomplishing the past few years. Though she will appreciate it, I need to do it for me. I will need to setup some temporary boundaries so I have the space to just focus on this. For the past decade, I haven’t created the boundaries necessary to enable me to be successful at this. This means I won’t be attending to her needs, or actively working to reconnect with her. I may come home and immediately start working on things without stopping to chat about the day. It may mean that I am in a pissy mood because I am doing something I that I really don't want to be doing. It may mean she’ll have to get her butt out of bed to take of the kids. And it will all be a severe departure from our current patterns.


----------



## bfree

island_of_one said:


> I think you are exactly right. This is why she is stuck in guilt mode and not able to move on to remorse (good article on the difference: The difference between guilt and remorse ). For me right now, the lack of remorse part is even a bigger deal than the trust issue. Until she is able to deal with her emotions from the EA, I don’t see how the two of us will be able to move forward.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is my plan at the moment:
> 
> - Give her the high level things that need to happen for reconciliation to have a chance (remorse, trust, self-reflection, full disclosure, etc) and tell it is up to her to figure out how. Give her the space to figure out how (if!) she wants to pursue accomplishing them. And then not concern myself about what she is doing (i.e. let go). If she wants to actually go out with friends, or do things for herself, then great. Or just sit in a stupor, then great. If she wants to erase her ipad, so be it. It is up to her to do the necessary things…. or not.
> 
> - Focus my efforts in the coming weeks on getting my proverbial house in order. Organize what I’ve left in a mess, decide on the things that are awaiting a decision, take care of the more urgent projects that I’ve been neglecting (due to distraction, etc). These are things that I have been weak on accomplishing the past few years. Though she will appreciate it, I need to do it for me. I will need to setup some temporary boundaries so I have the space to just focus on this. For the past decade, I haven’t created the boundaries necessary to enable me to be successful at this. This means I won’t be attending to her needs, or actively working to reconnect with her. I may come home and immediately start working on things without stopping to chat about the day. It may mean that I am in a pissy mood because I am doing something I that I really don't want to be doing. It may mean she’ll have to get her butt out of bed to take of the kids. And it will all be a severe departure from our current patterns.


You may want to consider doing what Doc Mathias did. Basically once everything came out he decided to focus on divorce because he didn't believe she could be remorseful and couldn't change. I believe filling out the divorce paperwork, working of dividing the assets, working on child sharing schedules really forced home the consequences of his wife's infidelity. I don't know if their marriage will survive but Mrs M is a lot more remorseful now than she was before. Once she saw that losing everything was a real possibility her fog cleared and I now think she truly is a changed woman. Maybe by directly focusing on divorce in a real way your wife will begin to see the consequences of her actions before and in the present.


----------



## island_of_one

bfree said:


> You may want to consider doing what Doc Mathias did. Basically once everything came out he decided to focus on divorce because he didn't believe she could be remorseful and couldn't change. I believe filling out the divorce paperwork, working of dividing the assets, working on child sharing schedules really forced home the consequences of his wife's infidelity. I don't know if their marriage will survive but Mrs M is a lot more remorseful now than she was before. Once she saw that losing everything was a real possibility her fog cleared and I now think she truly is a changed woman. Maybe by directly focusing on divorce in a real way your wife will begin to see the consequences of her actions before and in the present.


Realistically, I expect that it will likely come down to doing just what you and others have suggested. I don't have a lot of confidence that she is going to step up to the plate in the next couple months on her own accord. 

But is there harm in giving her a shot (for a finite amount of time) to sort things out? I will need to make it clear to her that there are (high level) things that MUST happen from her, and that she has a window of time to start showing appropriate actions. In the mean time, I can work on things that have made me less attractive over the years (such as not getting things done, slow to make decisions, etc). I'll need this sort of improvement anyway. What I am uncertain of is how to approach her right now. Should I start trying to be affectionate to provide a little more reason for her to be interested in working on things?


----------



## bfree

island_of_one said:


> Realistically, I expect that it will likely come down to doing just what you and others have suggested. I don't have a lot of confidence that she is going to step up to the plate in the next couple months on her own accord.
> 
> *But is there harm in giving her a shot (for a finite amount of time) to sort things out?* I will need to make it clear to her that there are (high level) things that MUST happen from her, and that she has a window of time to start showing appropriate actions. In the mean time, I can work on things that have made me less attractive over the years (such as *not getting things done, slow to make decisions*, etc). I'll need this sort of improvement anyway. What I am uncertain of is how to approach her right now. Should I start trying to be affectionate to provide a little more reason for her to be interested in working on things?


Actually I think there is harm. During the time you are waiting for her to decide to actually put forth an effort you are going to get more and more discouraged...as you already are. You are going to get more resentful and the likelihood of divorce will become greater. She in turn will just become more and more stagnant, entrenched in her paralysis the further out from D-day you go. That is why it is always recommended that actions be taken right after D-day so that the betrayal and the need for restitution is fresh and apparent. The longer this drags on without reaching a crisis point the harder it will be to rebuild. If divorce is your goal then it doesn't really matter. But if even a small part of you wants to R then immediate steps should be taken to determine if its possible. Point is, if she is faced the the imminent end of her marriage and still doesn't act then your marriage died a long time ago and now you just need to bury it and be done with everything.

And isn't putting off the decision to D or R exactly what you are admitting to doing? Isn't this another case of inaction on your part?

I think you should sit her down and simply state that you cannot continue in limbo. You need to spell out exactly what you expect from her and that includes her doing the research necessary to show how her affair really was an affair and should be seen as such. And once that epiphany is reached she will (hopefully) understand why you are so hurt and disconnected right now. Tell her that since she seems to be stagnated you will make the decision to divorce even though it really is not what you want. Tell her that you still love her but love is not enough. You need to be able to trust her and you need to know that she is worthy of your commitment. Let her know that her paralysis is what is now killing your marriage and you alone do not have the power to alter that course.


----------



## Chaparral

island_of_one said:


> Are my expectations unreasonable? Do I just need to accept that she's not going to behave how I expect? My gut still tells me that she is just trying to protect herself and is refusing to open up.


Its not going to work with counselors like number 3.

When they come up with things that are unacceptable, do you say, "If that's the case then, you are saying we should just divorce.'

Are you telling people in no uncertain terms what you have to have. Are you expecting them to read your mind? Did you give this list to the counselor? Your wife? Communication is the key. You can figure it out if you want to.


----------



## Chaparral

island_of_one said:


> My wife’s claim is that she not unwilling. She just doesn’t know how to or doesn’t have the ability to do so. I still think this is BS, but that’s her story.


Are these discussions you are having with your wife or fights?


----------



## Chaparral

island_of_one said:


> I agree completely- I need to do something different. Though I may still come here to complain sometimes.  I don’t really have other good options for voicing complaints (note my user name).
> 
> During my month of indecision, it seemed like my wife got the message that I am ready to end it. Her self-defeatist attitude helped to reach the conclusion that I was going to walk away before I had reached any conclusion. She seemed to accept it as inevitable. I just don’t think she is capable of considering change, on her behalf, right now no matter what I do. Filing for divorce would likely have the same effect as what I have already done (i.e. no immediate change). Right now, I believe that she would accept the divorce before changing her perspective. But, I suspect that after a few weeks/months of us being apart, she might finally have some awakening and start to accept what she’s done and take responsibility.
> 
> For a while (i.e. weeks), I can live with her still being in her emotional stupor. I can give her some time and space to see if she becomes interested in working through her own issues. If she can bring herself to work on things, then healing will be easier without the stigma of divorce papers being involved. If not, then it will be time to take more drastic measures.


I don't think your wife is done with you but the other way around. I think she believes you have been done with her a long while. The way you write about her sounds like someone who is diappointed in how she turned out. I think she sees this as no matter what she does it isn't going to be good enough for you. The other poster is probably right. she was using the other man as a safe, him being far away, escape from the reality of disappointing you. The reason she tells you she doesn't know what to do is she truly has no idea. It doesn't sound to me like you see her as an equal, ie. you see her as inferrior. I think she feels this too, even if it isn't true.

Ask her if she feels you are beating her down.


----------



## alte Dame

My take is that your W is a person who is not particularly motivated to change, to do new things, to work on self-improvement. Her EA was unrealistic soma that took up time and emotional space & crowded out the time and opportunity to do real things with the people around her. When her AP is taken out of the equation, there's a gap that she doesn't naturally fill because of her personality. You pushing her to do what you need generates anything from a shrug to actual pushback, but will not be received with an enthusiastic desire to improve things.

She wants a guarantee from you that you will be there in the end if she goes out of her comfort zone and works on things the way you want. You want her to want to do these things herself. You can't get blood out of a turnip, though. She both doesn't know how to do what you want & doesn't want to do them.

I think if you want to R, you need to offer her some guarantee. Otherwise, you'll get no effort from her. Whether her reaction is based on laziness, depression, stubbornness, lack of self-esteem or lack of love, it won't matter, because she reacts the way she reacts.

If your condition is that the effort and change come from her without guarantees from you, then you should just pack it in, in my opinion.


----------



## island_of_one

bfree said:


> Actually I think there is harm. During the time you are waiting for her to decide to actually put forth an effort you are going to get more and more discouraged...as you already are. You are going to get more resentful and the likelihood of divorce will become greater. She in turn will just become more and more stagnant, entrenched in her paralysis the further out from D-day you go. That is why it is always recommended that actions be taken right after D-day so that the betrayal and the need for restitution is fresh and apparent. The longer this drags on without reaching a crisis point the harder it will be to rebuild. If divorce is your goal then it doesn't really matter. But if even a small part of you wants to R then immediate steps should be taken to determine if its possible. Point is, if she is faced the the imminent end of her marriage and still doesn't act then your marriage died a long time ago and now you just need to bury it and be done with everything.
> 
> And isn't putting off the decision to D or R exactly what you are admitting to doing? Isn't this another case of inaction on your part?


Well, it seems that I have a gift (a curse, actually) for inaction. It’s high on my list of things that needs serious improvement. I’ll just wait a while until I figure out how to do that. 

And there is still part of me that does want to R. The percentage varies on a daily basis, but there is still a part. 



bfree said:


> I think you should sit her down and simply state that you cannot continue in limbo. You need to spell out exactly what you expect from her and that includes her doing the research necessary to show how her affair really was an affair and should be seen as such. And once that epiphany is reached she will (hopefully) understand why you are so hurt and disconnected right now. Tell her that since she seems to be stagnated you will make the decision to divorce even though it really is not what you want. Tell her that you still love her but love is not enough. You need to be able to trust her and you need to know that she is worthy of your commitment. Let her know that her paralysis is what is now killing your marriage and you alone do not have the power to alter that course.


That sounds pretty fair actually. A definite improvement over my plan. Perhaps a few days for her to decide if she is willing to do the things that are necessary?


----------



## island_of_one

chapparal said:


> I don't think your wife is done with you but the other way around. I think she believes you have been done with her a long while. The way you write about her sounds like someone who is diappointed in how she turned out. I think she sees this as no matter what she does it isn't going to be good enough for you. The other poster is probably right. she was using the other man as a safe, him being far away, escape from the reality of disappointing you. The reason she tells you she doesn't know what to do is she truly has no idea. It doesn't sound to me like you see her as an equal, ie. you see her as inferrior. I think she feels this too, even if it isn't true.
> 
> Ask her if she feels you are beating her down.


You really hit a few nails on the head. I think every suggestion you mentioned is correct. To be honest, I am disappointed with how she turned out. With myself too for that matter. She definitely feels like she can’t be good enough to satisfy me. She definitely feels and resents the inequality between us...which unfortnately is a real feeling for me. Not sure if she feels beaten down exactly. 

Talks have been discussions not fights. Except for the afternoon after meeting MC#3, I have been calm for a while. She made the comment about being willing but unable on the short drive home from MC#3. I was too angry at the time to comment. 

I think I have been reasonably clear on setting my expectations to her. They have been verbalized a few times. Not to say that they sunk in clearly in her head yet.


----------



## island_of_one

alte Dame said:


> My take is that your W is a person who is not particularly motivated to change, to do new things, to work on self-improvement. Her EA was unrealistic soma that took up time and emotional space & crowded out the time and opportunity to do real things with the people around her. When her AP is taken out of the equation, there's a gap that she doesn't naturally fill because of her personality. You pushing her to do what you need generates anything from a shrug to actual pushback, but will not be received with an enthusiastic desire to improve things.
> 
> She wants a guarantee from you that you will be there in the end if she goes out of her comfort zone and works on things the way you want. You want her to want to do these things herself. You can't get blood out of a turnip, though. She both doesn't know how to do what you want & doesn't want to do them.
> 
> I think if you want to R, you need to offer her some guarantee. Otherwise, you'll get no effort from her. Whether her reaction is based on laziness, depression, stubbornness, lack of self-esteem or lack of love, it won't matter, because she reacts the way she reacts.
> 
> If your condition is that the effort and change come from her without guarantees from you, then you should just pack it in, in my opinion.


I think you are spot on in assessing my wife and her need for a guarantee. But at this moment, I can’t offer any guarantees. And, if she had that sort of assurance, I don’t know what would be there to provide motivation for her to work on issues.


----------



## Fisherman

island_of_one said:


> I think you are spot on in assessing my wife and her need for a guarantee. But at this moment, I can’t offer any guarantees. And, if she had that sort of assurance, I don’t know what would be there to provide motivation for her to work on issues.


"If your condition is that the effort and change come from her without guarantees from you, then you should just pack it in, in my opinion."

Then you might as well pack it in, nobody here can help you. Your determined to remain in limbo forever.


----------



## alte Dame

This is your choice then, IOO. You can use a carrot or a stick & the carrot may just be too conciliatory for you to swallow. Certainly, she could just sit back with her guarantee and then do no work whatsoever.

So, this is for you to decide. You can agonize forever, but since you both want to live out your lives as happily as possible, it behooves you to make a decision. So give her an ultimatum and a deadline and then be willing to live with the results either way.


----------



## SadandAngry

island_of_one said:


> Well, it seems that I have a gift (a curse, actually) for inaction. It’s high on my list of things that needs serious improvement. I’ll just wait a while until I figure out how to do that.
> 
> And there is still part of me that does want to R. The percentage varies on a daily basis, but there is still a part.
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds pretty fair actually. A definite improvement over my plan. Perhaps a few days for her to decide if she is willing to do the things that are necessary?


No point in procrastinating today, when you can put it off until tomorrow, right?


----------



## bfree

alte Dame said:


> This is your choice then, IOO. You can use a carrot or a stick & the carrot may just be too conciliatory for you to swallow. Certainly, she could just sit back with her guarantee and then do no work whatsoever.
> 
> So, this is for you to decide. You can agonize forever, but since you both want to live out your lives as happily as possible, it behooves you to make a decision. So give her an ultimatum and a deadline and then be willing to live with the results either way.


You're right but I think if she started to do even a few things on her own to make some improvement IOO would eventually start to draw closer to her. The problem is that he detached from her in self defense due to her betrayal and she not only didn't do anything to show she was sorry but she even refused to acknowledge the betrayal in the first place. I'm not sure I could start to come back to a spouse that showed no signs of remorse or understanding of the pain she had caused. Although I would love to see their marriage recover I don't see how it will if she isn't willing to at least take one small positive step in the direction of R.


----------



## Chaparral

She doesn't see it as an affair. She was using it as an escape. She doesn't see erself as a respected , equal partner in the marriage.

You have to figure out how to communicate with a woman. Imagine an engineer trying to communicate with an artist. She doesn't understand you and vice versa.
As leader of the family, it is your responsibility to lead and figure it out.

Have the two of you read FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES, HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS? Have you read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER? MMSLP is not a sex manual.


----------



## bfree

chapparal said:


> She doesn't see it as an affair. She was using it as an escape. She doesn't see erself as a respected , equal partner in the marriage.
> 
> You have to figure out how to communicate with a woman. Imagine an engineer trying to communicate with an artist. She doesn't understand you and vice versa.
> As leader of the family, it is your responsibility to lead and figure it out.
> 
> Have the two of you read FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES, HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS? Have you read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER? MMSLP is not a sex manual.


I understand that but her closing her eyes is not going to fix this. If she feels that unequal in the marriage then they shouldn't stay married. How is IOO supposed to draw her out when she betrayed him? There were other more positive and constructive ways to deal with this weren't there? Shouldn't she take some personal responsibility for her actions? IOO is the betrayed spouse. It is not his job, nor should it be his job, to fix this marriage in its entirety.


----------



## island_of_one

To clarify, I am willing to assure her that I will be there with her trying to make things work once she does the necessary things to make amends for the EA. What I cannot guarantee is that the marriage is going to work no matter what. It will take both of us making serious changes for things to work. If she can’t resolve some issues with self-esteem, self-identity, and codependence, then we’ll be stuck in the same places we’ve been. Likewise for resolving issues with myself. I do not want to stay in the same, exact marriage that we’ve for the last several years. I can envision a path that gets up to a better place. But, I can’t promise I’m going to stay if she doesn’t go down the path with me. 

We do have issues with inequality and parent-child interactions (in both directions in some instances). I do not feel that her thoughts, needs, or worth as a person is any less than my own. However, I do feel that she has not been an equal contributor in the marriage and household. She feels to me somewhat like a dependent instead of an independent adult (good article on this: The Real Reason Your Wife Doesn’t Want to Work « A Shrink for Men ). I have contributed to it becoming this way, but I do not want for it to be like that. She projects the inequality in some areas to be a complete superior/inferior nature in the whole relationship, and I think this issue is a big hangup keeping her from being sure of moving forward.


----------



## island_of_one

Just to make sure I am understanding the suggested paths to take right now: 

Option 1
- Give ultimatum that she take responsibility for her actions and give a timeline for that to occur. Directly working on marriage issues on hold pending remorse over EA. Spend time working on my own issues. Accept that there is a significant probability that she will not come through and filing for D will be the next step. 

Option 2
- Take the high road and provide her with some form of carrot to entice her to work on resolving EA and then to work on the marriage. While she should be the one doing the lifting and making the first moves, I take on that responsibility myself since she has shown no signs of having that ability. Carrot could be proceeding with working on marriage issues, trying to meet her needs, and/or just start trying to re-attach and show affection. In others words, provide her with some comfort and reassurance of the future of our relationship. The remorse and trust rebuilding still have to occur, but the theory is that she needs the comfort there before she can do her part. The risk here is that she may ultimately not do her part and we will go through more heartache by opening back up to each other only to ultimately fail months down the road. The other risk is that I won’t be able to work through the resentment of having to go this route. 

Given my wife’s behavior, option 2 seems more likely to have a positive outcome. However, I am not ready to swallow that option. It also seems very nice guy-ish to me.


----------



## SadandAngry

island_of_one said:


> Just to make sure I am understanding the suggested paths to take right now:
> 
> Option 1
> - Give ultimatum that she take responsibility for her actions and give a timeline for that to occur. Directly working on marriage issues on hold pending remorse over EA. Spend time working on my own issues. Accept that there is a significant probability that she will not come through and filing for D will be the next step.
> 
> Option 2
> - Take the high road and provide her with some form of carrot to entice her to work on resolving EA and then to work on the marriage. While she should be the one doing the lifting and making the first moves, I take on that responsibility myself since she has shown no signs of having that ability. Carrot could be proceeding with working on marriage issues, trying to meet her needs, and/or just start trying to re-attach and show affection. In others words, provide her with some comfort and reassurance of the future of our relationship. The remorse and trust rebuilding still have to occur, but the theory is that she needs the comfort there before she can do her part. The risk here is that she may ultimately not do her part and we will go through more heartache by opening back up to each other only to ultimately fail months down the road. The other risk is that I won’t be able to work through the resentment of having to go this route.
> 
> Given my wife’s behavior, option 2 seems more likely to have a positive outcome. However, I am not ready to swallow that option. It also seems very nice guy-ish to me.


That seems right to me. I did number 2, it's very hard down the road, because you get the added resentment of being superhuman to fix the wayward's mistake. 
That said, option 1 depends a lot on your wife, who may or may not rise to the occasion. I knew my wife would not have, she would have destroyed everything we worked for for 15 years, including her first really big opportunity as an artist. I was not prepared to let that happen, and I was arrogant enough to fully believe I could pull option 2 off.


----------



## jfv

Option 2 is not 'the high road' and you're right, it is nice guyish. Having balls is always a higher road in a situation like this. You will not get what you want if you do the heavy lifting. If your wife cannot 'rise to the occasion' then why would you want to be married to her? Since she's the one who cheated, giving her the chance to rise to the occasion is the best route. If she wants it bad enough you'll know and react accordingly if she doesn't, you're better off alone or with someone else. If you want to motivate her follow bfree suggestion about filing. This is your best shot.


----------



## bfree

My opinion is that option 2 just perpetuates limbo for a longer period. I personally believe that limbo is the most damaging thing that can happen to a marriage and each spouse. It just fuels resentment, disappointment, anger, disillusionment, hopelessness, etc. I feel that a crisis point must be reached and both parties must decide to work on the marriage together. It takes two to make a marriage and it takes two to heal a marriage. If only one is willing to make an effort then the marriage is not going to last in any event. Just my opinion.


----------



## Saki

Option 2 only works if IOO is all in on the marriage.

If he's all in on the marriage, then it's not limbo. Limbo is a state of not being in or out of the marriage. 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, IOO has a decision to make. Go all in or go all out.

Limbo is misery.

I agree with everything bfree is saying. A marriage can't work with only 1 person in.

Right now, there are 0 people all in on IOO's marriage. So he should either divorce, or start the progress toward having 2 people all in on their marriage.

IOO has an opportunity to lead his marriage, to show by example what it is to be all in. His wife could follow his lead. Of course, she could do lots of other things too.

One facet of leading his marriage may be forcing the issue here, through showing his wife he is really ready to divorce (I'm not sure he really is).

As far as I can figure, IOO is waiting for the same gaurantee that his wife is: that staying with his wife will work, that it's the right choice.

There is no way to know man. Stand up and make whatever decision your heart tells you to, and START LIVING IT THROUGH ACTION.


----------



## bfree

Saki said:


> Option 2 only works if IOO is all in on the marriage.
> 
> If he's all in on the marriage, then it's not limbo. Limbo is a state of not being in or out of the marriage.
> 
> I've said it before and I'll say it again, IOO has a decision to make. Go all in or go all out.
> 
> Limbo is misery.
> 
> I agree with everything bfree is saying. A marriage can't work with only 1 person in.
> 
> Right now, there are 0 people all in on IOO's marriage. So he should either divorce, or start the progress toward having 2 people all in on their marriage.
> 
> IOO has an opportunity to lead his marriage, to show by example what it is to be all in. His wife could follow his lead. Of course, she could do lots of other things too.
> 
> One facet of leading his marriage may be forcing the issue here, through showing his wife he is really ready to divorce (I'm not sure he really is).
> 
> As far as I can figure, IOO is waiting for the same gaurantee that his wife is: that staying with his wife will work, that it's the right choice.
> 
> There is no way to know man. Stand up and make whatever decision your heart tells you to, and START LIVING IT THROUGH ACTION.


:iagree: IOO has to take action one way or the other. If he does go all in he has to lead the marriage with action, clear, consistant and unwavering. If he is not prepared to do that he needs to end it for all concerned.


----------



## MarriedTex

Island,

Given your situation, Option 1 is the "right" thing to do but is a weigh station on the way to divorce. 

Option 2 is "nice guy," and not sustainable for the rest of your life. But you may need to make the first substantial move if your relationship has any hope of long-term success. Your relationship is in crisis mode right now. If you want to make it work, you have to demonstrate re-commitment to foster an environment where she can recommit to you. That's a lot to swallow though.

In all probability, you will be deciding the future of your relationship with the choice you make. Option 1 certainly will not produce any miracles.


----------



## Saki

How is option 2 not sustainable? How is it even nice guyish?

Isn't option 2 "be a good husband"?? What am I missing?


----------



## SadandAngry

bfree said:


> :iagree: IOO has to take action one way or the other. If he does go all in he has to lead the marriage with action, clear, consistant and unwavering. If he is not prepared to do that he needs to end it for all concerned.


Yes, yes, exactly! And even when he does go all in, he has to give it time, at least 3 months, and expect some disappointments on the way. Like I said, I was super****inghuman, and she still took a lot longer than I expected to come around, and dished out some massive disappointments that I just bit my tongue over at the time. She started to take action just in the nick of time, I barely cared by the time she did. Luckily, I had been smart enough to keep my mouth shut on anything negative up until then.


----------



## SadandAngry

Option 2 is not sustainable unless his wife starts to buy in and put forth effort too. How long can he "be a good husband" to someone who continues to "be a bad wife?". Not too long, given that she has already eroded his reserves of good will.


----------



## Saki

Ahhh, yes, I hadn't really considered that perspective.

Well again, IOO needs to have his needs clearly spelled out to her. And then he has to observe what she does to meet them.

I feel like this conversation goes in circles. Anyone else?


----------



## SadandAngry

Not an easy choice to make, place trust in someone who has proven untrustworthy, make yourself vulnerable again to the one who has betrayed you already. To take on the burden of her actions, because she is too weak to do the right thing. It is not fair. It is risky. In the end though it probably is his only realistic hope for a relatively quick positive outcome.


----------



## MarriedTex

SadandAngry said:


> Option 2 is not sustainable unless his wife starts to buy in and put forth effort too. How long can he "be a good husband" to someone who continues to "be a bad wife?". Not too long, given that she has already eroded his reserves of good will.


Yes, this is exactly it. Over time, the resentment would eat him alive.

If you do take Option 2, you go all in for a set period of time. Set a deadline in your mind that only you know. Say, commit yourself to being "super-husband" through the rest of 2013 and promise yourself a re-evaluation of status on Jan. 1. If you can't do the whole year, then target Labor Day, Columbus Day, whatever. If you go "all in," for a set period and she still doesn't respond, then at least you can honestly say you tried everything you could.

Best of luck.


----------



## carmen ohio

island_of_one said:


> Just to make sure I am understanding the suggested paths to take right now:
> 
> Option 1
> - Give ultimatum that she take responsibility for her actions and give a timeline for that to occur. Directly working on marriage issues on hold pending remorse over EA. Spend time working on my own issues. Accept that there is a significant probability that she will not come through and filing for D will be the next step.
> 
> Option 2
> - Take the high road and provide her with some form of carrot to entice her to work on resolving EA and then to work on the marriage. While she should be the one doing the lifting and making the first moves, I take on that responsibility myself since she has shown no signs of having that ability. Carrot could be proceeding with working on marriage issues, trying to meet her needs, and/or just start trying to re-attach and show affection. In others words, provide her with some comfort and reassurance of the future of our relationship. The remorse and trust rebuilding still have to occur, but the theory is that she needs the comfort there before she can do her part. The risk here is that she may ultimately not do her part and we will go through more heartache by opening back up to each other only to ultimately fail months down the road. The other risk is that I won’t be able to work through the resentment of having to go this route.
> 
> Given my wife’s behavior, option 2 seems more likely to have a positive outcome. However, I am not ready to swallow that option. It also seems very nice guy-ish to me.


Dear i_o_o,

You've been posting here for three months and, frankly, I don't think you've learned a thing.

Option 1 is just an excuse for putting off yet again the decision you need to make -- are you willing to live with a wife who refuses to admit that she has been emotionally unfaithful and who wants you to guarantee the success of her marriage despite this, or are you not willing to do this?

Option 2 is the "total capitulation" scenario that countless men have tried with predictable unhappy consequences -- treat your WW extra nice and hope that she falls back in love with you and magically becomes the wife you want her to be, only to learn somewhere down the road that this backfired because she lost all respect for you and eventually found a man that she could respect.

What about Option 3, filing for divorce now? That would send her the only message that has any chance of knocking some sense into her head and, by doing this, you would learn very quickly if there is any hope for your marriage.

Of maybe you'll go with Option 4 -- continuing to plow the same ground over and over in your TAM posts without coming to any kind of resolution.


----------



## SadandAngry

I think there is some space between 2 and 3. A realistic time limit is 3, maybe 4 months tops (with a spouse who realises they've ****ed up royally). Then if it fails, you've got a got wave of anger to push you to follow through with option 3, avoiding option 4 or 1.


----------



## SadandAngry

Finally getting around to MMSLP. When I espouse option 2, I do not mean total capitulation, shower her with comfort and affection and hope for the best. No, only part of it is being the better husband he realizes he wasn't in the past. Another major part, and this is key, is IOO seizing control, standing up and leading the marriage. Working on himself to improve what it is that he brings to the marriage, increasing his attractiveness in the alpha sense. The good beta needs to be in the mix though, to see the value of the whole package, and also to carry her through periods later, where anger wipes out his beta for a bit.


----------



## bfree

SadandAngry said:


> Finally getting around to MMSLP. When I espouse option 2, I do not mean total capitulation, shower her with comfort and affection and hope for the best. No, only part of it is being the better husband he realizes he wasn't in the past. Another major part, and this is key, is IOO seizing control, standing up and leading the marriage. Working on himself to improve what it is that he brings to the marriage, increasing his attractiveness in the alpha sense. The good beta needs to be in the mix though, to see the value of the whole package, and also to carry her through periods later, where anger wipes out his beta for a bit.


While I would agree with you in theory in IOO's case she won't even admit wrongdoing much less work on the marriage. He is going to have to be completely committed for it to work and I'm not sure he can set aside his resentment enough to follow the MAP right now. I would almost think in this case a separation would be in order but I doubt that would really do anything other than grease the path toward divorce. I do agree that if IOO does want to save the marriage he should consider the MMSL approach. If that is the case then I would suggest he either start a thread on Athol's site or contact Athol directly. But if he does he needs to be completely open and honest about everything including his failures and shortcomings so that he can receive appropriate feedback.


----------



## island_of_one

I have been slammed at work the last couple days and haven't had a chance to sort through everything and respond. I'll catch up tomorrow. Thanks for all of the thoughts and discussions. Sorry to frustrate folks (myself included!) with my lack of action. Some tendencies are hard to get rid of.


----------



## island_of_one

Saki said:


> I feel like this conversation goes in circles. Anyone else?


:iagree: This conversation has been endlessly circling in my head for a while. Gotta find a way to break free from the swirl.


----------



## MEM2020

Island,
Let me see if I can help you out here. Your wife wants a commitment of unconditional love and unconditional commitment. Obviously you aren't going to give her that as you would be lying. 

Perhaps you might want to consider telling her this: 

We both want a loving passionate marriage with a totally loyal partner. You have to realize it is a bit ironic that you want a guarantee from me, and yet you are so in love with someone else that you resent me for getting in the way of that fantasy. 

The one guarantee I will give you is this. If you consistently make a good faith effort to be a good wife, and a faithful wife, I will stick with the marriage. 

I am going to give you a short list of stuff that I am going to do differently going forward. In some cases I will do more, in others less, some things just different. 

I would like you to to do the same. As always, you can choose to put more or less effort into the marriage. 

Over the next couple of months I will physically remain in the marriage. I will be working on me. As to whether I am moving towards or away from you emotionally, that is mainly up to you. 





island_of_one said:


> :iagree: This conversation has been endlessly circling in my head for a while. Gotta find a way to break free from the swirl.


----------



## SadandAngry

Strip it all down and there are just a few rings that'll happen.

Things will stay the same, or they will change. You are not happy now, you know to much to fool yourself, can you endure more? You say no, but who knows?

If you opt for change, your wife will change, or she won't. If not you will issue an ultimatum, sooner (option 1) or later (option 2). Still she will change, or she will not. The difference is whether you need to feel you did everything YOU could. Either way, you will benefit from working on yourself.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes. 



QUOTE=SadandAngry;1472159]Strip it all down and there are just a few rings that'll happen.

Things will stay the same, or they will change. You are not happy now, you know to much to fool yourself, can you endure more? You say no, but who knows?

If you opt for change, your wife will change, or she won't. If not you will issue an ultimatum, sooner (option 1) or later (option 2). Still she will change, or she will not. The difference is whether you need to feel you did everything YOU could. Either way, you will benefit from working on yourself.[/QUOTE]


----------



## SadandAngry

How is it going island?


----------



## island_of_one

Thanks for asking! When I last posted, I was struggling to decide whether to work to save the marriage or just to punt. I had been waiting to post an update once I decided what I want to pursue. Alas, I am still struggling with that choice. 

Torn between what my gut tells me (that our marriage will be OK at best, and I will never shake the feeling of having settled), and thinking that my gut feelings are probably misguided due to the dysfunctions I/we have had over the years. I could go on for a few pages with all that I have been contemplating on the matter. I have gotten some great advice on what actions to take to move forward…once I decide which direction I want it to be.


----------



## SadandAngry

Have you been working on your own issues island? Or have you remained in limbo? What about your wife? Did she kick the habit of talking to the other man?


----------



## island_of_one

SadandAngry said:


> Have you been working on your own issues island? Or have you remained in limbo? What about your wife? Did she kick the habit of talking to the other man?


So, I did finally decide that I wanted to work to try to save the marriage. In my mind, this means each of focus on self-improvements in order to make each other more attractive/desirable partners (I’ve been reading a lot of MMSL type stuff). The plan is to also work on improving communication skills and eliminating passive aggressive behavior. One caveat is that she still has to come clean on any/all details on the EA and show remorse for it. She has not contacted the OM again as far as I have been able to tell, but she has never shown true remorse for it either. 

I plan to have a conversation similar to what MEM11363 suggested, but I have not had the conversation yet. Wife and kids just got back from a few week visit at the in-laws house. I hope to have the conversation by this weekend. Will have to see if she is willing to go along with owning up to the EA and doing the hard work of self improvement (including a fair amount of weight loss on her part). 

For me, my progress was pretty limited while I was weighed down by the decision of whether she can be a good partner for me. Now that I have let go of that decision, I have been able to start moving forward some. Making some progress on nice guy sort of things and killing the co-dependency. Main thing I need to do is just get all of my crap in order, catch up on neglected tasks at home, get organized, and generally just be in control of myself. I am somewhat limited on this due to an ADHD/anxiety combo that keep me from being very efficient. I am starting IC to try to improve this.


----------

