# Why an RA might not work:Can you cheat a cheater?



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Dear Chump Lady, Can you cheat a cheater?

From the article:

*"So the question is — can you cheat a cheater? No. In the words of the great philosopher Muddy Waters, “You can’t spend what you ain’t got, you can’t lose something you ain’t never had.” To be well and truly chumped, you have give wholly of yourself. Narcissists don’t invest themselves to the degree that a chump does. They don’t commit. Narcissists lack empathy, and without empathy you cannot have intimacy. There’s just not a lot of heart to give. Narcissists withhold, they hedge their bets, or they “love” very superficially. They love what you can do for them, how many kibbles you provide, how associating with you reflects back on them. That’s a different sort of connection than love. In fact it isn’t connection at all, it’s association."*

Another good piece by the Chump Lady.....


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Her writing is really on target....


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

Yep another great article. I luckily have already figured this out. If I did a RA it would then give my cheater an "aha! see you're just as horrible as me!" -type of attitude. I like having the moral high ground, the view from up here is quite nice  !


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NeverMore said:


> Yep another great article. I luckily have already figured this out. If I did a RA it would then give my cheater an "aha! see you're just as horrible as me!" -type of attitude. I like having the moral high ground, the view from up here is quite nice  !


If the cheater is a narcissist it won't hurt them in the same way...Chump lady has a way of connecting the dots..doesn't she?


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> If the cheater is a narcissist it won't hurt them in the same way...Chump lady has a way of connecting the dots..doesn't she?


Oh he's def a narcissist! He would be upset because I "belong" to him, his words recently. no joke.


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> There is always something that is most important to each one of us. That is where one needs to strike. If you know that person well enough, you can strike the proper target and get the reaction you desire. The trick is to keep it legal.


Oh I would def get the reaction I would want which is jealousy, but since he's a narc, his feelings of jealousy would be fleeting, and then he would use it against me. I know him to a tee as far as his narcky-ness is


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NeverMore said:


> Oh he's def a narcissist! He would be upset because *I "belong" to him, his words recently. no joke.*


You belong to him? :slap: Wow....


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> You belong to him? :slap: Wow....


Yeah dude is 50 shades of ****ed up! He's in a BDSM slave relationship with his newest AP, he's the dom, she's the slave. BUt he still thinks he has ALL rights to me too. Sick ****!


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> There is always something that is most important to each one of us. That is where one needs to strike. If you know that person well enough, you can strike the proper target and get the reaction you desire. The trick is to keep it legal.


Yes revenge does not always have to equal an affair....


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

After my idiotic revenge affair my wife said something to the effect of: "There's nothing I can say, is there?"


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> After my idiotic revenge affair my wife said something to the effect of: *"There's nothing I can say, is there?"*


Good question....


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NeverMore said:


> Yeah dude is 50 shades of ****ed up! He's in a BDSM slave relationship with his newest AP, he's the dom, she's the slave. BUt he still thinks he has ALL rights to me too. Sick ****!


Sheesh...are you divorcing him?


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Sheesh...are you divorcing him?


Yup, and he's pissed about that too


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NeverMore said:


> Yup, and he's pissed about that too


I guess he's shocked someone who "belongs to him" could actually file for a divorce...:scratchhead:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Good question....


You know the really weird thing? My wife's affair crushed my heart.

But it was my own revenge affair that really hurt me. I actually ended up on a course of seroxat.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> You know the really weird thing? My wife's affair crushed my heart.
> 
> *But it was my own revenge affair that really hurt me*. I actually ended up on a course of seroxat.


You've mentioned that your EA hurt you more then your wife's PA - why is that? How long was her PA?


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I guess he's shocked someone who "belongs to him" could actually file for a divorce...:scratchhead:


No, he's shocked that I don't find him so desirable that I will just look over the whole him screwing other people "thing", LOL

Cause remember, he's not just a Dom, he's a sex god, LOL


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NeverMore said:


> No, he's shocked that I don't find him so desirable that I will just look over the whole him screwing other people "thing", LOL
> 
> Cause remember, he's not just a Dom, he's a sex god, LOL


A sex god? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Well you can cite as a reason for your divorce : " I just handle this sex god"


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> You know the really weird thing? My wife's affair crushed my heart.
> 
> But it was my own revenge affair that really hurt me. I actually ended up on a course of seroxat.


Matt, how did your wife handle your affair? No big deal? rug swept? ??


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> You've mentioned that your EA hurt you more then your wife's PA - why is that? How long was her PA?


Because I had hurt her. And I had cheated. I suddenly discovered that I didn't like myself any more.

I really can't recall how long her affair was. I blocked it out of my mind. Maybe a month or two?

It was complicated, she told me in advance she was going to have the affair, but that she would come back to me.

I somehow clung on, and she did come back to me.

But we rugswept it and self-medication with alcohol, often with a female drinking buddy from a hobby group I was a member, of ended up right where you'd expect. But on the very point of unprotected PIV sex, I suddenly came out of the fog.

I confessed to my wife the very next day.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

workindad said:


> Matt, how did your wife handle your affair? No big deal? rug swept? ??


We talked it through, seriously, plus renewal of vows, so we did not rug sweep it.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Because I had hurt her. And I had cheated. I suddenly discovered that I didn't like myself any more.
> 
> I really can't recall how long her affair was. I blocked it out of my mind. Maybe a month or two?
> 
> ...


Was she concerned about how much she had hurt you?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> A sex god? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Well you can cite as a reason for your divorce : " I just handle this sex god"


Or say: "Sorry, your honour! I am needing this divorce as I am a sex god atheist!":rofl:


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Or say: "Sorry, your honour! I am needing this divorce as I am a sex god atheist!":rofl:


No joke, def not drinking any of that kool-aid !


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NeverMore said:


> No joke, def not drinking any of that kool-aid !


You are right...I'd stay away from the beverages table....he sounds like a real gem...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Was she concerned about how much she had hurt you?


Yes, she was. I think she honestly didn't expect me to be quite as badly hurt as I was. She seemed a bit nonplussed by it.


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> You are right...I'd stay away from the beverages table....he sounds like a real gem...


Yep, it's all laced with arsenic.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NeverMore said:


> Yep, it's all laced with arsenic.


WSs really are quite a bunch aren't they?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> WSs really are quite a bunch aren't they?


Most of them are really nice people, who made a really bad decision or two.

Of course, some are not nice people.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Most of them are really nice people, who made a really bad decision or two.
> 
> Of course, some are not nice people.


I would switch your most and some around...but that's just me...


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Most of them are really nice people, who made a really bad decision or two.
> 
> Of course, some are not nice people.


I hear what you're saying because some really only cheated once or twice and learned from those bad choices. In my experience with my WH, nope. Serial cheater extraordinaire. He's one of the worst kind of cheaters there are.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

NeverMore said:


> I hear what you're saying because some really only cheated once or twice and learned from those bad choices. In my experience with my WH, nope. Serial cheater extraordinaire. He's one of the worst kind of cheaters there are.


Probably one of the bad ones.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

I have met a good few cheaters in my years and some of them are terrific people but they seem to take advantage of their situations, my wives situation is a hell of a mess and all of it her own making, I do wonder who the hell I married? Although most of it trivial and workable with enough effort things will work out but holy cow I had no idea about some of the issues she has going on!!! she gets IC every week and we attend MC every week so she gets a double helping of counseling 

Like I say, I will not stoop so low as to have an RA even went as far as to obliterate a relationship when someone tried to blackmail me into an A.

But yes you can actually cheat a cheater and you have to be a darn sight smarter than they are to do it, but the thing is do you want to do it to spite them so they find out or are you doing it because you want some of that type of action too?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

wranglerman said:


> I have met a good few cheaters in my years and some of them are terrific people but they seem to take advantage of their situations, my wives situation is a hell of a mess and all of it her own making, I do wonder who the hell I married? Although most of it trivial and workable with enough effort things will work out but holy cow I had no idea about some of the issues she has going on!!! she gets IC every week and we attend MC every week so she gets a double helping of counseling
> 
> Like I say, I will not stoop so low as to have an RA even went as far as to obliterate a relationship when someone tried to blackmail me into an A.
> 
> But yes you can actually cheat a cheater and you have to be a darn sight smarter than they are to do it, *but the thing is do you want to do it to spite them so they find out or are you doing it because you want some of that type of action too?*


Good question - some RA's are indeed motivated by the desire to see the Ws suffer lik they are suffering...


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

But the best way to make a WS suffer is to be strong enough to get them into a R situation and to then needle them and hit the nerves every time you feel like it, but this only works with a remorseful spouse, if you have a narcissist then no matter how much you do to them and especially if it is just to spite them only inflates their ego further.

Narcissists need a more brutal approach, you need to be a good deal stronger and know that you are throwing away your marriage but you need to stop thinking of it as cheating but open up the marriage to "OPEN MARRIAGE STATUS" and then defile them with as many young studds or hot chicks as you can whilst they are home of course!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Good question - some RA's are indeed motivated by the desire to see the Ws suffer lik they are suffering...


I realised afterwards why I had a RA. I wanted someone who liked what I liked and... someone who hadn't cheated on me.


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## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

NeverMore said:


> Yep another great article. I luckily have already figured this out. If I did a RA it would then give my cheater an "aha! see you're just as horrible as me!" -type of attitude. I like having the moral high ground, the view from up here is quite nice  !


Exactly what mine would do. He then would belittle me for being so hard on him about it. So I will just wait until we are divorced  or at least until he is gone from my house.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

wranglerman said:


> Narcissists need a more brutal approach, you need to be a good deal stronger and know that you are throwing away your marriage but you need to stop thinking of it as cheating but open up the marriage to "OPEN MARRIAGE STATUS" and then defile them with as many young studds or hot chicks as you can whilst they are home of course!


Doesn’t work quite like that with a narcissist. Everything they see and hear is translated into “how does that effect me?” So you banging others they see as a ‘bad thing’ in their interest. They just don’t want you banging others... You are supposed to be devoted to them after all right?  Since they want what other’s desire, you might get a reaction, but it will be one of trying to secure you so you stay focused on them. They want your attention and don’t like sharing it.

But the problem; It’s still about themselves. They want you to be exclusive because they are the center of the universe. They also expect others to flock to them and still welcome their attention too. 

You need a whole perception swap that their own cheating is something really bad for them. They already know your cheating is not good for them and a betrayal. Fear of you as their spouse and your reaction isn’t a motivator to not cheat, it’s a motivator to just not be as blazon about it. They need a true feeling that even if they could get away with it, it makes them less of a person they want to be. 

You can do it as BS using your influence over them, but it may not be in you to do this to another. You have to want to shatter them, particularly their ego, self-worth, and self-esteem. Hard to do that to someone you love. The key is *they* have to see themselves in a whole new way and adopt new mechanisms for getting what they want. You have to make it very distasteful and a awful experience for them.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

I don't support RAs but I do think that they have "helped" (help seems inappropriate to say), some WS's wake up to the pain they've caused and brought them out of the fog or a false R. I've also seen a lot of situations where both spouses cheat *at* each other and nobody's affair(s) get resolved. Their relationship is just a big toxic cycle of cheating tit-for-tat. 

It's counter-intuitive to me to say to your spouse, "Look at all the wrong you've done." and then to go and do the same thing to them. In a similar fashion, disciplining your child for hitting their sibling by spanking them doesn't sit right for me. Also, I'm sure a lot of WS's would feel like they were off the hook now or that their BS has evened the score for them. Finally, I think it is self-destructive for the BS to cheat especially if that goes against their morals/character etc. 

. 
They say the best revenge is to be happy and I think that's why the 180 principle is so effective for many and why so many WS's seem to get over the GIGS (Grass is Not Greener Syndrome) when they see you are happy, don't need them and are moving on with your life. Especially when you start dating it seems. Sexual possessiveness is a powerful incentive for some to reclaim their betrayed spouse.

I'm not going to lie. Personally, I've thought about RAs or other forms of sexual revenge (such as sleeping with his enemy or a close friend :FIREdevil:. But what would that get me? I'd feel lower than the level that I stooped to if I did that. I rather just move on, cut up the loose ends in this relationship and find someone new that knows my worth and hasn't betrayed me (at least not yet).


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

What if the RA was not a RA all along and the wayward's A was just an A cuz they were to stupid to do there own investigation and prove them selves wrong?

I guess us smarter folks would call that clearing of one connciuos!

But what if...what if the M was so phucket up that the wayward was dumb enough to feel like **** at the end of each and every affair but only continues in order to place a band aid on something that is far from healing? And yet they continue.

I guess if your that jacked up to have a RA at the very least you can hire a PI or plant a VAR before you stoop so low that you hate your self and continue into a spiral of self distruction and deciet to cut off your nose in spite of your face?


One would think...right?

I personally think that at the end of the day its all about one moral compass and whne one looks for validation and attention at the sake of there vows...well then be it an RA or a R its still wrong!

So how can one compete with someone that doesn't have the same moral compass? But in the same breath if one does have the same moral compass as the wayward then who cares your both screwed up and how bad can you hurt someone that has the same degree of morals as you do?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> I realised afterwards why I had a RA. I wanted someone who liked what I liked and... someone who hadn't cheated on me.


Matt,

That post was brief but *EXTREMELY* insightful and interesting. If a BS does have an RA or leaves could it be to be with someone who has not cheated on them? To be with someone where they are free from that pain? The more I see it in my own life and read here on the TAM message boards I now believe the BSs never fully heal from their partner's betrayal. I wonder if a new relationship while not freeing them totally from the ravages of infidelity does free them from a lot of the emotional baggage they would have if they stayed with their WS?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Miss Taken said:


> I don't support RAs but I do think that they have "helped" (help seems inappropriate to say), some WS's wake up to the pain they've caused and brought them out of the fog or a false R. .


:iagree: Sometimes for a WS to truly get it - you have to give them a healthy dose of their own medicine.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Matt,
> 
> That post was brief but *EXTREMELY* insightful and interesting. If a BS does have an RA or leaves could it be to be with someone who has not cheated on them? To be with someone where they are free from that pain? The more I see it in my own life and read here on the TAM message boards I now believe the BSs never fully heal from their partner's betrayal. I wonder if a new relationship while not freeing them totally from the ravages of infidelity does free them from a lot of the emotional baggage they would have if they stayed with their WS?


This is so true, after the end of my first marriage I entered the whole dating thing again, and yes I had an ego and rightly so, I was newly fixed and those first relationships were scary stuff but not for fearing the worst but because I was numbing the pains and moving forward in my life a totally awesome experience for first time betrayed!!!


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

Racer said:


> Doesn’t work quite like that with a narcissist. Everything they see and hear is translated into “how does that effect me?” So you banging others they see as a ‘bad thing’ in their interest. They just don’t want you banging others... You are supposed to be devoted to them after all right?  Since they want what other’s desire, you might get a reaction, but it will be one of trying to secure you so you stay focused on them. They want your attention and don’t like sharing it.
> 
> But the problem; It’s still about themselves. They want you to be exclusive because they are the center of the universe. They also expect others to flock to them and still welcome their attention too.
> 
> ...


The sentences underlined are very similar to how I have been handling my R with my wife, after a year and a half of pulling my hair out and "why", "what if", "should I have" "why didn't she just", "why didn't I just" and all that mind screwing pulp, I had this enormous clarity, "STOP GIVING A SH!T AND START LIVING A LIFE", and then forth a new game plan, new script, my life so I took charge, it was this thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...tional-monsters-why-control-doesn-t-work.html that gave me the insight I needed to regain control of my life and thinking about it as I did my chores and worked the horses brought me to the conclusion that if "we" are going to move forward then perhaps I need to first strip her to the core and rebuild her morals and self esteem as I feel it was these key missing elements that lead to her EA. And although to some it might have looked from the outside as though I was taking great delight in breaking her down, but it is for the greater good, giver her complete understanding and build her into a woman of moral fiber who could be affair proof, or she might just leave, either way my emotions are tucked up safely out of harms way.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

wranglerman said:


> The sentences underlined are very similar to how I have been handling my R with my wife, after a year and a half of pulling my hair out and "why", "what if", "should I have" "why didn't she just", "why didn't I just" and all that mind screwing pulp, I had this enormous clarity, "STOP GIVING A SH!T AND START LIVING A LIFE", and then forth a new game plan, new script, my life so I took charge, *it was this thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...tional-monsters-why-control-doesn-t-work.html that gave me the insight I needed *to regain control of my life and thinking about it as I did my chores and worked the horses brought me to the conclusion that if "we" are going to move forward then perhaps I need to first strip her to the core and rebuild her morals and self esteem as I feel it was these key missing elements that lead to her EA. And although to some it might have looked from the outside as though I was taking great delight in breaking her down, but it is for the greater good, giver her complete understanding and build her into a woman of moral fiber who could be affair proof, or she might just leave, either way my emotions are tucked up safely out of harms way.


Im glad you found that thread helpful.


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