# Appropriate Boundaries with members of opposite sex



## Riverside MFT (Oct 5, 2009)

A man was interviewing new drivers for his transportation company. The route was very dangerous and went along several steep cliffs through a mountain pass. The interviewer asked each man how close he could safely drive near the edge of the cliff. The first man responded, “I could drive within six inches of the edge.” The second man responded, “I could drive within two inches of the edge.” The third man responded, “I would stay as far away from the edge of the cliff as I possibly could."

All things considered, the third man got the job. Why? Because the interviewer wasn't interested in learning how close the drivers could get to the edge of the road. He was interested in an employee that would keep his company safe.

In that same light, I wanted to express some of my opinions of how married couples can stay away from the edge of affairs in their marriage.

I have written about the importance of boundaries with members of the opposite sex before. I regularly work with couples in counseling who are dealing with the aftermath of an affair (or an almost affair). Having appropriate boundaries can go a long way in preventing affairs or inappropriate relationships that could be detrimental to their marriage. These are my own thoughts and are based off of my experience as a marriage counselor as well as my life experience in my marriage. You may disagree with me. That is fine. But I encourage you to develop your own boundaries when interacting with members of the opposite sex. Staying far away from the edge is what could prevent your marriage from tumbling to destruction.

The following are *DISCOURAGED* with members of the opposite sex when you are married:
■Any kind of physical touch that lasts for more than three seconds.
■Any kind of physical touch besides a handshake, pat on the back, or a brief hug (again, no longer than three seconds).
■Full-frontal hugs. This is when the bodies are completely touching, and not just an upper body hug.
■Being alone socially with the other person. There are times when a job might require two people to be alone. In these times, people shoul work together as professionals and not friends. There are times when a job might require more than the three second rule (i.e. athletic trainers, professional ballroom dancers, etc.). In these cases, professionalism and not engaging in any other outside of work interactions are of the utmost importance.
■Secret conversations (by phone, internet, etc.) with the other person. This includes facebook and other social networking sites.
■Secret get togethers. It doesn't matter if it is "just lunch" or "just coffee."
■Ultimately, you should ask yourself, "Would my spouse be comfortable if he/she saw what I was doing with this other person right now?"

The following are *ENCOURAGED* with members of the opposite sex when you are married:
■Group dates where you and your spouse meet up with your friend and their spouse.
■Give your spouse access to all of your email and social networks.
■Professional interactions with members of the opposite sex and/or co-workers. I meet regularly with women one on one in a counseling setting, but I do not interact with them in any other way outside of counseling.
■Introduce your spouse to all of your friends.
■Make sure your spouse knows your co-workers and your relationship with each opposite sex co-worker.

Openess and honesty are great ways of staying away from the cliff, while secrecy and lies are like driving one inch away from the cliff. Just because you might be able to drive close to the edge, it doesn't mean you should.


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

Wow, just wow


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

MrsOldNews said:


> Wow, just wow


lol

'wow' agree or 'wow' disagree?


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Should be a stickie in all the forums, especially the 'coping with infidelity' forum.


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

I agree and nowadays adhere to the encourage section I unfortunately learned this the hard way
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

I wouldn't drive on the road along the cliff AT ALL. 

If I didn't get the job, all the better for me.


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## waynegemma (Mar 9, 2012)

■Being alone socially with the other person. There are times when a job might require two people to be alone. In these times, people shoul work together as professionals and not friends. There are times when a job might require more than the three second rule (i.e. athletic trainers, professional ballroom dancers, etc.). In these cases, professionalism and not engaging in any other outside of work interactions are of the utmost importance.

I'm inclined to disagree.... my scenario... (albeit a difficult one to deal with)

My Girlfriend and I dont live together, however she has male friends whom she has known for quite some time and would have them over to stay at times.

Although i have my issues with it i dont necassarily see it as a bad thing, i see the issues as "mine" not hers.


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## Broncos Fan (Mar 1, 2012)

This is really good stuff, Brian. I think you're spot on in your list of behaviors. My wife and I went years trying to do the "modern" thing and allow her to have male friends. I could trust her until I couldn't, and she could never trust them to keep it friendship only. I guess we were doing the whole "two inches from the cliff" thing and pretending that was fine as long as she didn't go over the edge. Wishful thinking. I appreciate the insights and I think we've been much better off since I began to expect her to avoid those cliff situations. She still disagrees to some extent (now she's like the other driver, farther away but still in the mindset that she should get as close as possible in these situations), but it's a process and talks continue.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Brian,

I think people have one problem, sometimes they are too confident of themselves. 

We know we are human, human can make mistakes no matter how good they are. 

My husband and I are doing what you encourage and not doing what you discourage. We have built up trust, love, and a happy family together. One thing I really thank my husband is he never makes me feel insecure.

Yes, the best way not to fall off the cliff is to stay away from the cliff as far as possible. The best way not to have affairs is to have strong self-control ability and stay away from situations which can lead to your fall.


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> lol
> 
> 'wow' agree or 'wow' disagree?


Disagree wholeheartedly.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

waynegemma said:


> ■Being alone socially with the other person. There are times when a job might require two people to be alone. In these times, people shoul work together as professionals and not friends. There are times when a job might require more than the three second rule (i.e. athletic trainers, professional ballroom dancers, etc.). In these cases, professionalism and not engaging in any other outside of work interactions are of the utmost importance.
> 
> I'm inclined to disagree.... my scenario... (albeit a difficult one to deal with)
> 
> ...


If it works for you great. I've learned the hard that not everyone sees things the same way. One of those guys may see her behavior as a come on and take advantage of it.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Spot on. I agree completely.


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## Riverside MFT (Oct 5, 2009)

In_The_Wind said:


> I agree and nowadays adhere to the encourage section I unfortunately learned this the hard way
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is too bad that some have to learn this the hard way, though In the Wind, I'm glad for your sakes that you have learned these things. I've heard a quote before (can't remember from where) that wise people learn from their mistakes, and *superwise* learn from the mistakes of others.


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

Touche. Unfortunately I am one of those that only learns from my own mistakes lol
Graduated summa cum laud from the school of hard knocks
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

waynegemma said:


> ■Being alone socially with the other person. There are times when a job might require two people to be alone. In these times, people shoul work together as professionals and not friends. There are times when a job might require more than the three second rule (i.e. athletic trainers, professional ballroom dancers, etc.). In these cases, professionalism and not engaging in any other outside of work interactions are of the utmost importance.
> 
> I'm inclined to disagree.... my scenario... (albeit a difficult one to deal with)
> 
> ...


Girlfriend is not wife.
Not living together is not marriage.

two different ballgames, imo.

And you should see it is a bad thing. LOL! I wouldn't stand for that when Hubs and i were dating. Holy crap.


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## Riverside MFT (Oct 5, 2009)

greenpearl said:


> Brian,
> 
> I think people have one problem, sometimes they are too confident of themselves.
> 
> We know we are human, human can make mistakes no matter how good they are.


:iagree: Absolutely. We hear of other people who made mistakes in their marriage, or who cheated and we say, "That would never be me," or "Even if my marriage did get bad, I would never cheat on my husband/wife."

Being over confident in ourselves can sometimes allow us to drop our guard.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

I like the analogy. It also suggests an important aspect that I see again and again which helped me. The bus driver can’t really see where the wheels of the bus are on the road. It’s a guess because the boundary of the point of no return is not directly visible. However to the spouse who is outside of the bus the proximity to the edge is very clear. They can often see when the situation is too close and dangerous.

So I would include in the encourage list, listening to your spouse and respecting them enough to act on what they say about staying away from the edge. Too many spouses who are too close to the cliff just dismiss their spouses warning and keep heading for the edge until the crash. We should all respect our spouse enough to really think about what they are saying and not just dismiss it as controlling.


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## bundy (Mar 12, 2012)

Nice writeup riverside. The boundaries may seem extreme to some but I'm sure couples that adhere to them will have less problems with infidelity.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

waynegemma said:


> ■Being alone socially with the other person. There are times when a job might require two people to be alone. In these times, people shoul work together as professionals and not friends. There are times when a job might require more than the three second rule (i.e. athletic trainers, professional ballroom dancers, etc.). In these cases, professionalism and not engaging in any other outside of work interactions are of the utmost importance.
> 
> I'm inclined to disagree.... my scenario... (albeit a difficult one to deal with)
> 
> ...


You don't live together so you are not in a relationship such as marriage. But if you are in a comitted relationship and she is having male freinds over her appartment alone and "to stay", OMG, that is very risky in my opinion. If you are not engaged I guess she is free to date other men and have sexual relationships as well with them.


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## Jeff74 (Feb 11, 2012)

Looks like s good list. However, at the end of the day the person committing the affair made the decision to do so regardless of whether they followed all the boundaries or not.

when I hear others say that they "fell into the affair", etc I strongly believe that it is just a way of shifting responsibility. 

Just as a side note:
In my law practice one of the partners who deals with divorces, etc has probably heard it all..and the crap that people make up is amazing. Although I can't say with 100% certainty, I would bet at least 99% of people who cheat and commit other sexual "sins" are not sex addicts
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

My H and I don't agree on this. In MC one year ago he thought his friendship was normal and just happened to be of the opposite sex. He did stop all communication with her, yet never felt like it was wrong. He never told me of her - Claims it wasn't anything to talk about because it was business.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

meson said:


> I like the analogy. It also suggests an important aspect that I see again and again which helped me. The bus driver can’t really see where the wheels of the bus are on the road. It’s a guess because the boundary of the point of no return is not directly visible. However to the spouse who is outside of the bus the proximity to the edge is very clear. They can often see when the situation is too close and dangerous.
> 
> So I would include in the encourage list, listening to your spouse and respecting them enough to act on what they say about staying away from the edge. Too many spouses who are too close to the cliff just dismiss their spouses warning and keep heading for the edge until the crash. We should all respect our spouse enough to really think about what they are saying and not just dismiss it as controlling.


:iagree: Profound. Very nice.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

What is interesting is that some don't see this boundary as preventative but as controlling. I got some shocking news for you ladies. 90% of your male "friends" have had thoughts of having sex with you at some point or another.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Kobo said:


> What's is interesting is that some don't see this boundary as preventative but as controlling. I got some shocking news for you ladies. 90% of your male "friends" have had thoughts of having sex with you at some point or another.


I would agree with this...and put the other 10% in the gay category.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

On the "full frontal hugs" what about us gentlemen who can't experience the full frontals due to a massive beer gut?


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

Most of my male friends have been around since elementary school. My best friend Is a male I've known for over 15 years. I'm going to be his best 
man in his wedding this year  
My stbxh and I may have disagreed on many issues, but not this one. He has female friends And i have male friends. Why do we agree on this issue? Because we're both adults and can make adult decisions.

For heavens sake people if you're worried about your spouse going wayward for having a friend of the opposite sex you're either a controlling person of your significant other has already shown signs of being untrustworthy. Seriously we're ADULTS here. For all you men who say I trust my wife just not the friend, seriously? You're basically saying you wife is to weak or something to deter unwanted advances? And you know what, I'm sure a portion of my male friends thought about f****** me at some point or another, I'm a damn good looking woman and they're male. 

However all of these men respect me and understand the boundaries of friendship, also it helps that most of their girlfriends enjoy my company as well. I refuse to believe two adults if different sexes can't be friends it's preposterous. Many of my married friends have friends of the opposite sex too. And yes they hang out without their significant others around too. No infidelity going around here just a group of like minded adults who enjoy each others company. the greatest part about having a male best friend is him explaining things to me from a male pov. Things my husband couldn't explain himself as he does not have a way with words. 

Also my friend comes over when my husband is gone ::gasp:: lol. We go out for lunch sometimes too. And guess what? He's never seen any part of me naked, never kissed or did anything that would be considered fooling around because he's like a brother to me. Again my stbx has never cared at all about this, why? Because he knows I've never cheated on someone, I'm truthful to the point if being to blunt and lastly because I'm an adult who's capable of making adult decisions. 

If he treated me like a child and told me which friends i could still see after the marriage I would have told him to get over it or leave. Luckily he's not an untrusting control freak. FYI only one of my past bfs had an issue with my male friends. He was an insecure control freak, come to find out(not just to do with the friends thing). I'm not saying anyone who wants their spouse to stop hanging out with members of the opposite is a control freak. In just saying if you don't trust your spouse to have friends of the opposite sex maybe they gave you good reason to or maybe it's your issue.

Just don't act like your poor SO was so sweet and in to you until that guy at the bar she shouldn't be going to got to her. She was probably straying in her mind already if she gave him the time of day. Maybe I feel so strongly on this issue because I have always had just as many male friends as female friends if not more. Never got me into any trouble since my first best friend in first grade. Still see him once a month to play catch up  And guess what? His wife loves me


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

MrsOldNews said:


> Most of my male friends have been around since elementary school. My best friend Is a male I've known for over 15 years. I'm going to be his best
> man in his wedding this year
> My stbxh and I may have disagreed on many issues, but not this one. He has female friends And i have male friends. Why do we agree on this issue? Because we're both adults and can make adult decisions.
> 
> ...


I understand what you're saying. I truly do. But the scenarios you're describing are the exception and not the rule. Most men...and I feel I have a right to speak for men since I've been one for a bit...most will make a move on our attraction at one point. As civilized as we've all become, attraction and passion is still a primal instinct.

Being alone with a man who is attracted to you in house with a comfy bed (or couch..or table top) is like playing with matches after emersing yourself in gasoline...for MOST of us. I'm sure it works for some but some of us...the risk is just not worth taking.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

MrsOldNews said:


> Most of my male friends have been around since elementary school. My best friend Is a male I've known for over 15 years. I'm going to be his best
> man in his wedding this year
> My stbxh and I may have disagreed on many issues, but not this one. He has female friends And i have male friends. Why do we agree on this issue? Because we're both adults and can make adult decisions.
> 
> ...




Good for you. You're ending is not the norm.


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## First Time Wife (Mar 14, 2012)

I am new to being a wife and mother hense the user name choice. I have only been married for about two months but we have been together for almost two years. Up until a couple of weeks ago I would have never thought my husband would put himself in a somewhat questionable situation. This is not to say anything happened but I would not know for sure unless I was a fly on the wall. My sister in law and I do not get along very well which is unfortunate because she lives two blocks away, but I am quite close with her sisters. Well my husband goes to his brother's house almost every day and for the sake of understanding we will call the sister of the sister in law Jessica. Jessica has moved down here because she is going through marrital problems caused by her infidelity. She has been texting my husband at inappropriate times, and has also been at my home with my husband when I am at work. I am extremely frustrated about this because I know it takes two but I just have an uneasy feeling about her and I feel like she has crossed some boundaries. I confronted my husband and explained this makes me feel uncomfortable and he was not as receptive as I had hoped. He became deffensive and said I do not have a reason not to trust him because he has never given me a reason. The problem is that I feel disrespected and I do not know who to communicate this to him because he makes comments like :" is this how the rest of our night is going to be, How long are we going to spend talking." I do not want to keep talking but at the same time I need some reassurance and if he doesn't communicate with me how are we supposed to come to some understanding. He also says he has never been a great communicator. Is that a cop-out response? Am I being a crazy person? Please help I feel like I am going to destroy my marriage in under 6 months.


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## First Time Wife (Mar 14, 2012)

MrsOldNews said:


> Most of my male friends have been around since elementary school. My best friend Is a male I've known for over 15 years. I'm going to be his best
> man in his wedding this year
> My stbxh and I may have disagreed on many issues, but not this one. He has female friends And i have male friends. Why do we agree on this issue? Because we're both adults and can make adult decisions.
> 
> ...


I admire your self confidence and only hope that I can get to that point as well. Unfortunately there are some women out there who see something they want and if a man gives them even the slightest bit of attention they run with it. I do not consider myself as a controlling person, maybe I am but I do not we have not really discussed boundaries because we have never had to. I do not have a problem with the opposite sex as friends but I do have a problem with seeing "red flags" and not addressing them.


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## mgperkow (Mar 8, 2012)

Wow. Actually, I think all that is kinda harsh. I didn't realize so many people saw getting married as swearing off any possibility of meaningful connections with nearly half of the human race (at least, that's what I'm hearing). I suppose, if that's what it takes to keep your marriage together, then that's what it takes. But I'd like to think that couples can agree between them on what they consider appropriate boundaries, instead of needing some kind of "universal standard." I'm not saying that some of those points don't represent good ideas, in my own opinion, but I for one would probably feel very alone and caged in life if I followed that list to the letter.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Don't ever underestimate the power of sex. One weak moment, one drink too many, one argument too much or too few, one more day of not communicating and a woman can give in to her desire for a connection.

Where as....

A lot of dudes will "hit" if he's horny.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

First Time Wife said:


> I admire your self confidence and only hope that I can get to that point as well. Unfortunately there are some women out there who see something they want and if a man gives them even the slightest bit of attention they run with it. I do not consider myself as a controlling person, maybe I am but I do not we have not really discussed boundaries because we have never had to. I do not have a problem with the opposite sex as friends but I do have a problem with seeing "red flags" and not addressing them.


My wife and I did His Needs Her Needs after it became apparent that I needed better boundaries with women. We did the boundary setting. Just awesome. Above and beyond boundaries HNHN is just plain outstanding in trying to understand that while husbands and wives may have similar needs they are rarely the same needs by priority. Also the specifics of what each need is really about can go a long way towards ... dare I say it ... happiness.

We usually give the book as a wedding gift these days.
It really is something that should be done after the engagement and before the wedding I think for best results.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

sinnister said:


> Don't ever underestimate the power of sex. One weak moment, one drink too many, one argument too much or too few, one more day of not communicating and a woman can give in to her desire for a connection.
> 
> Where as....
> 
> A lot of dudes will "hit" if he's horny.


I heard a saying once, but I'm probably butchering it - newlyweds scoff at the idea of needing boundaries. Those in the second decade of marriage are more apt to say, "hey, maybe that's not such a bad idea after all." Those who stay married beyond 20 years cling to them, because sometimes it feels like they are the only thing keeping them together.

Very few people understand that this strong connection that keeps two people committed to each other doesn't always feel so strong a fifteen years later, when that friend suddenly reveals their true feelings. But I think if a person waits until after they are married to think about these boundaries, they may eventually find that they waited too late.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> My wife and I did His Needs Her Needs after it became apparent that I needed better boundaries with women. We did the boundary setting. Just awesome. Above and beyond boundaries HNHN is just plain outstanding in trying to understand that while hsubands and wives may have similar needs they are rarely the same needs by priority. Also the specifics of what each need is really about can go a long way towards ... dare I say it ... happiness.
> 
> We usually give the book as a wedding gift these days.
> It really is something that should be done after the engagement and before the wedding I think for best results.


That's actually a great wedding present.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

I for one am very glad I found out that it's OK to set boundaries. In almost every relationship I ever had before this one, to the man I ended up marrying, I let things like OpSex friendships slide, even though they bothered me, figuring "Who am I to tell him who he can have as a friend?".

The male/female relationship is complex at the best of times. Blur the lines a little, and you're just asking for problems. That is why I had no trouble at all (well, a little trouble, but it didn't last long!) asking for boundaries this time around.

With several different boyfriends, here are a few examples of the things that have happened to me:

Inappropriate Facebook wall posts to my boyfriend by his ex girlfriend (talk about humiliating);

Inappropriate texts/emails from other women/exes;

Boyfriend coaching a women's soccer team - and forgetting to tell me they were women he was coaching. I caught on becuse I dropped in one night and he was all dressed up, fresh jeans, pressed shirt, cologne - to go coach soccer. With a raised eyebrow, I said nothing and left, but I did grab a girlfriend and go check out the practice (free country). There he was, gassing with all the women, having a ball...getting him to tell me was like pulling teeth;

I could go on and on. The soccer coaching is one of my favorites. Turns out, he didn't tell me because his best friend's ex-wife was on the team, and he was interested in her. Nice. Nothing like keeping that fishing line in the water, just in case someone better bites!

So sorry; there's no way I'm going to allow another woman to be an intimate part of my husband's life. That's for us now. Luckily, he was in agreement to this; there would have been no marriage otherwise.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

It's as though I tempted fate by writing my previous post in this thread...


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## waynegemma (Mar 9, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Girlfriend is not wife.
> Not living together is not marriage.
> 
> two different ballgames, imo.
> ...


I do see it as a bad thing sometimes, but no trust, no relationship worth having no ?


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## waynegemma (Mar 9, 2012)

waynegemma said:


> ■Being alone socially with the other person. There are times when a job might require two people to be alone. In these times, people shoul work together as professionals and not friends. There are times when a job might require more than the three second rule (i.e. athletic trainers, professional ballroom dancers, etc.). In these cases, professionalism and not engaging in any other outside of work interactions are of the utmost importance.
> 
> I'm inclined to disagree.... my scenario... (albeit a difficult one to deal with)
> 
> ...


Just to clarify, these people are friends that she has known for years, and when i say years i mean decades, not just a couple of years.

I dont like it, in fact i hate it, it is a bad thing, but as above, no guts, no glory imo


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## 381917 (Dec 15, 2011)

mgperkow said:


> *I didn't realize so many people saw getting married as swearing off any possibility of meaningful connections with nearly half of the human race (at least, that's what I'm hearing).*


That still leaves billions of other members of the human race that you can form meaningful connections with.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

I don't believe in hugging whatsoever with the opposite sex.


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## MrsOldNews (Feb 22, 2012)

Complexity said:


> I don't believe in hugging whatsoever with the opposite sex.


Wow all the posts like this will never cease to amaze me. I could never in my life date someone so insecure and controlling that they won't letme hug someone of the opposite sex. That to me is crazy pure and simple. ( again unless your so is a cheater has had an EA ect). someone please help me wrap my mind around this thought process. I'm 3 pages in to this and I still refuse to think an emotionally healthy adult can't be friends with the opposite sex.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

MrsOldNews said:


> Wow all the posts like this will never cease to amaze me. I could never in my life date someone so insecure and controlling that they won't letme hug someone of the opposite sex. That to me is crazy pure and simple. ( again unless your so is a cheater has had an EA ect). someone please help me wrap my mind around this thought process. I'm 3 pages in to this and I still refuse to think an emotionally healthy adult can't be friends with the opposite sex.


If it makes me "insecure and controlling" because I don't feel it's appropriate for my wife to hug another man nor does she coincidentally see it as appropriate for me to hug some random woman then so be it. Besides, why do you need to go to that extent? a simple handshake won't do? I'm glad me and my wife agree on this, frankly I couldn't date someone with your definition of boundaries.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

waynegemma said:


> Just to clarify, these people are friends that she has known for years, and when i say years i mean decades, not just a couple of years.
> 
> I dont like it, in fact i hate it, it is a bad thing, but as above, no guts, no glory imo





Complexity said:


> If it makes me "insecure and controlling" because I don't feel it's appropriate for my wife to hug another man nor does she coincidentally see it as appropriate for me to hug some random woman then so be it. Besides, why do you need to go to that extent? a simple handshake won't do? I'm glad me and my wife agree on this, frankly I couldn't date someone with your definition of boundaries.


I think we have to accept that there are some people, even on this message board, who will defend opposite sex freindships to the bitter end. 

I was on another message board wondering how to deal with my bf's EA. I was tarred and feathered for being insecure and controlling.....mmmkay, a few months later, one of the ringleader posters admitted that she was "friends" and business partner with some guy from law school. and between her marriages she did have sex with him ....while he was married. So now I understand why she would villify anyone who is trying to put a stop to opposite sex friendships.


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## mgperkow (Mar 8, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I think we have to accept that there are some people, even on this message board, who will defend opposite sex freindships to the bitter end.


Yeah, I happen to be one of those people, and I sure will.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

mgperkow said:


> Yeah, I happen to be one of those people, and I sure will.


to the bitter end, you defend your right to be friends with whomoever you god damn well please, ......then good for you.......


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Whilst I think it's normal and healthy for people to have friends of the opposite sex, I do agree that there have to be boundaries if one is in a committed relationship.

I've been in a committed relationship with my partner of 2 years. From the start of the relationship I was aware that he had quite a lot of female friends, and I didn't have a problem with this. However, over time the constant text messaging, in front of me, between him and an ex girlfriend (a mutual friend who was forever telling me how much he still cared about her) and numerous other lady friends wore a bit thin and I ended the relationship. After a short while, he admitted that his behaviour had been disrespectful towards me, and undertook not to do it again.

Two years down the line, we're still together but I've gone from a confident woman with healthy self-esteem to the absolute opposite... I've never suspected him of cheating on me (and don't believe he ever would), but the necessary trust in the relationship never really had a chance to develop because of the above behaviour. Whilst we have very deep feelings for one another, and are well suited in just about every respect, there is a 'sensitive issue' in the relationship that we've been trying desperately to resolve. However, I recently to discovered that he's been talking to and emailing a few of his female friends discussing me and our relationship in great detail. He mightn't have cheated on me, but the result has been the same and I'm finally ready to walk away.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

waynegemma said:


> ■Being alone socially with the other person. There are times when a job might require two people to be alone. In these times, people shoul work together as professionals and not friends. There are times when a job might require more than the three second rule (i.e. athletic trainers, professional ballroom dancers, etc.). In these cases, professionalism and not engaging in any other outside of work interactions are of the utmost importance.
> 
> I'm inclined to disagree.... my scenario... (albeit a difficult one to deal with)
> 
> ...


OMG. I am so sorry. But what does this have to do with Talk About Marriage. 

You see her having other men over her place as your problem. And it really is. You need to get some respect for yourself and have some boundaries. She will never respect you if you do not respect yourself.

But again, you are not married and she is free to have sex with other men.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

waynegemma said:


> I do see it as a bad thing sometimes, but no trust, no relationship worth having no ?


Marriage is about Love and Respect. Trust is a by product. Blind trust in a spouse is naive, lazy and ambivalent.

Younsee when you commit to someone for the rest of your life, you care very much about your marriage. 
Two people who love and respect each other trust each other to not put themselves in inappropriate positions.

So the GF having guys over. Let's say she was your finace.

Inappropriate -- check

Unfaithful -- check

Cheating -- Most likely

You cannot love and respect someone fully unless you love and respect yourself first. To do that you have to have integriy. Integrity is defined by your boundaries.

So you would be ok for your wife once married to spend the night over another man's house alone. And do this regularly? Really? You think this is ok?

How Nice of you.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

waynegemma said:


> Just to clarify, these people are friends that she has known for years, and when i say years i mean decades, not just a couple of years.
> 
> I dont like it, in fact i hate it, it is a bad thing, but as above, no guts, no glory imo


We are more likely to fall in love with a long term friend who we have bonded with than a stranger.

Having your boundaries crossed is not gutsy at all. It is called conflict avoidance.

I have opposite sex friends. I do not date them. I do not spend alone time with them. I do not sleep over their places. I don;t care how long I have known them. If I had a harem then maybe they would have seniority. But I am comitted to my wife.

In your case it does not sound like you have a close relationship with your GF yet. Are you allowed over her place when she has another male overnight? If you did go over, where would you sleep?


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## NickCampbell (Oct 18, 2010)

Definitely agree..

I use to be the "I don't want to be controlling" type, and for the first 4 years of our marriage, I did everything I could to let my wife and her male "friend" continue to be friends. This includes having him over for get togethers, doing double dates with him/a girl he was dating, being okay with him and my wife talking nightly on the computer, him being facebook friends with her and not me, etc etc etc. 

Then I checked her email recently and noticed some sexual material he was sending her. I knew they "joked" about stuff in passing, but this went further and was graphic and involved him and her physically together (song lyrics about them having sex, etc). Also flirting, and her sharing many personal issues about our marriage with him, bad mouthing me, etc.

So to the people saying "it's controlling.." - I use to say that too.

Now I realize the marriage needs to be both persons primary interest, not a friendship with someone outside of it. Boundaries aren't something that should be "forced" - if both people value the marriage, they should do what it takes to protect it. 

Boundaries are telling you HOW to protect it. 

Took me 8 years of us being together to realize it, and our 5th year of marriage is coming up in a few days, and we're possibly facing a divorce....


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

@NickCampbell:

I think there's a difference between being controlling and recognising the danger signs of _ jealousy making behaviour_. I've never considered myself to be a jealous person, but my partner's apparent need to have intimate conversations with other women (about me and our relationship) has made our relationship very insecure and unhealthy.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> Whilst I think it's normal and healthy for people to have friends of the opposite sex, I do agree that there have to be boundaries if one is in a committed relationship.
> 
> I've been in a committed relationship with my partner of 2 years. From the start of the relationship I was aware that he had quite a lot of female friends, and I didn't have a problem with this. *However, over time the constant text messaging, in front of me,* between him and an ex girlfriend (a mutual friend who was forever telling me how much he still cared about her) and numerous other lady friends wore a bit thin and I ended the relationship. After a short while, he admitted that his behaviour had been disrespectful towards me, and undertook not to do it again.
> 
> Two years down the line, we're still together but I've gone from a confident woman with healthy self-esteem to the absolute opposite... I've never suspected him of cheating on me (and don't believe he ever would), but the necessary trust in the relationship never really had a chance to develop because of the above behaviour. Whilst we have very deep feelings for one another, and are well suited in just about every respect, there is a 'sensitive issue' in the relationship that we've been trying desperately to resolve. However, I recently to discovered that he's been talking to and emailing a few of his female friends discussing me and our relationship in great detail. He mightn't have cheated on me, but the result has been the same and I'm finally ready to walk away.


I don't understand what people are talking about with so much texting. I use texting to plan activities with friends and to tell them where I am when have plans that day. This is why I agree that constant texting is going beyond mere friendship.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

@NextTimeAround:

I agree with you about the constant texting. I used to feel very insulted when I'd gone to the trouble of making myself look nice for a date and cooked us a beautiful meal, to then be rewarded with a series of texts between him and other women. Once he told me that the ex girlfriend had sent him 50 texts during the night because she was having problems with her partner, and he'd offered to meet her on the beach to give her a hug! IMO, this goes beyond simply keeping in touch with old friends and borders on emotional infidelity.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> @NickCampbell:
> 
> I think there's a difference between being controlling and recognising the danger signs of _ jealousy making behaviour_. I've never considered myself to be a jealous person, but *my partner's apparent need to have intimate conversations with other women (about me and our relationship) has made our relationship very insecure and unhealthy.*


You have every right to feel disrespected with this.

It is at the least inappropiate. If he does this knowing your feelings then I say that is a level of unfaithfulness. As you say emotional infidelity.

This is at least an EA from your posts IMO.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

waynegemma said:


> ■Being alone socially with the other person. There are times when a job might require two people to be alone. In these times, people shoul work together as professionals and not friends. There are times when a job might require more than the three second rule (i.e. athletic trainers, professional ballroom dancers, etc.). In these cases, professionalism and not engaging in any other outside of work interactions are of the utmost importance.
> 
> I'm inclined to disagree.... my scenario... (albeit a difficult one to deal with)
> 
> ...


Let me guess.

You're in your early to mid twenties
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> You have every right to feel disrespected with this.
> 
> It is at the least inappropiate. If he does this knowing your feelings then I say that is a level of unfaithfulness. As you say emotional infidelity.
> 
> This is at least an EA from your posts IMO.



He knew my feelings alright. He'd stopped doing it in front of me, but little did I know he was still having his ego stroked behind my back. 

I won't try to control him by saying he can't do this, but I can control the effect that it has on me by removing myself from his life.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> @NickCampbell:
> 
> I think there's a difference between being controlling and recognising the danger signs of _ jealousy making behaviour_. .


I appreciate this terminology.
:smthumbup:


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

This only thing I would add to this discussion is that it puts a great deal of burden people to meet the need for stimulation (not that kind), interaction, connection, etc. of their spouses.

Whether you agree or disagree with these boundaries, we can agree that they are significantly limiting. If, for instance, my spouse were to say I could not stay out late, go knock a few back with a group from work, etc. and expected me home by a certain hour, that puts the burden on her to be present and involved with me.

If not, then I will certainly not stay home and be bored.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

> But again, you are not married and she is free to have sex with other men.


I understand this is a marriage forum, but what does being married have to do with anything? A commitment to exclusivity and monogamy is just that, no matter if there's wedding bands involved or not. If I had ever dated someone in an exclusive relationship and their belief was just because we weren't married that this somehow made it okay to be less than completely faithful, honest, and committed, they would be down the road!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> He knew my feelings alright. He'd stopped doing it in front of me, but little did I know he was still having his ego stroked behind my back.
> 
> I won't try to control him by saying he can't do this, but I can control the effect that it has on me by removing myself from his life.


We cannot control people however we can tell them it is unacceptable and stick by it.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> We cannot control people however we can tell them it is unacceptable and stick by it.


What hurt most was that he was discussing our relationship with another woman. He said that he'd done so in order to get a "female perspective" on a certain issue in our relationship. I have done everything in my power to support, communicate, encourage and love this man for nearly two years, despite the lack of physical intimacy, yet he prefers to go online and have flirtatious chats (she told him "I love you!") with some random woman about our relationship, rather than seek the professional help he obviously needs.

He's now telling me that he will never do this again, but quite frankly his problem combined with this type of behaviour has caused so much damage to my self-esteem, I doubt that I can trust him again.


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## NickCampbell (Oct 18, 2010)

Cosmos said:


> What hurt most was that he was discussing our relationship with another woman. He said that he'd done so in order to get a "female perspective" on a certain issue in our relationship. I have done everything in my power to support, communicate, encourage and love this man for nearly two years, despite the lack of physical intimacy, yet he prefers to go online and have flirtatious chats (she told him "I love you!") with some random woman about our relationship, rather than seek the professional help he obviously needs.
> 
> He's now telling me that he will never do this again, but quite frankly his problem combined with this type of behaviour has caused so much damage to my self-esteem, I doubt that I can trust him again.


Haha, that sounds like whats happening with me..

Except we've been married for five years, they've been communicating for about 3, and he started sending her sexual material (and she started hiding it). 

What's "worked" for me has been emailing them both (the guy is now in another state), saying they're more than welcome to be together now and I'll be happy to start the divorce process ASAP, so they could be together. That I felt completely betrayed by them both, and would probably be better off moving on with my life and finding friends/a spouse who respects relationships I'm in. 

I quickly received two emails in reply - one from the guy saying he was "sorry" and struggled with his feelings for her (all the while feeling like crap since he knew he was betraying me..), but he would be willing to cut off all communication with her "if that's what you want." 

I put him on ignore and moved on. 

My wife said she was sorry, realizes she had an emotional affair, and wanted me and not the other guy. She agreed to discuss it in marriage counseling, and to be completely open and to cut off all contact with him.

We'll see!!!!


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

NickCampbell said:


> My wife said she was sorry, realizes she had an emotional affair, and wanted me and not the other guy. She agreed to discuss it in marriage counseling, and to be completely open and to cut off all contact with him.
> 
> We'll see!!!!


I think in instances like this marriage counselling is probably the best solution. I think sometimes, people in relationships can do this sort of thing for no other reason than getting their egos stroked (which I believe is my partner's case), but it's a dangerous thing to do, IMO. It creates lack of trust and unnecessary heartache. 

Good luck with the counselling!


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## Onmyway (Apr 25, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> I think in instances like this marriage counselling is probably the best solution. I think sometimes, people in relationships can do this sort of thing for no other reason than getting their egos stroked (which I believe is my partner's case), but it's a dangerous thing to do, IMO. It creates lack of trust and unnecessary heartache.
> 
> Good luck with the counselling!


They may start this with the wish to get their ego's stroked, but it can quickly turn into much more than just talk.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Onmyway said:


> They may start this with the wish to get their ego's stroked, but it can quickly turn into much more than just talk.


I agree with you, Onmyway. Even if not an affair, it can be very humiliating for the partner/spouse of someone who does this. The reason why I'm so upset that my partner has been doing this is because in the initial stages of our relationship it caused immense problems. The person he was in contact with then was a mutual friend who took great delight in exagerating the casual relationship they'd previously had and continually implying that he was still hung up on her. She was about to marry someone else, but simply thrived on the flattery and contact with my partner. Whilst I believed his version of things, his actions were just fuelling a very unhealthy situation and I broke up with him.

I thought he'd learned from his mistake, but apparently not.


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## galian84 (May 7, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> I agree with you, Onmyway. Even if not an affair, it can be very humiliating for the partner/spouse of someone who does this. The reason why I'm so upset that my partner has been doing this is because in the initial stages of our relationship it caused immense problems. The person he was in contact with then was a mutual friend who took great delight in exagerating the casual relationship they'd previously had and continually implying that he was still hung up on her. She was about to marry someone else, but simply thrived on the flattery and contact with my partner. Whilst I believed his version of things, his actions were just fuelling a very unhealthy situation and I broke up with him.
> 
> I thought he'd learned from his mistake, but apparently not.


Sorry to hear that happened :/ Yeah these things can quickly get out of hand if left unchecked. Had it happen once with an ex-boyfriend, who was hanging out a lot with a "friend" who he talked about a lot. Well, it ended up with them making out at a party one night. And there have been several instances where I found myself almost falling into an EA...this is why I'm leery of opposite sex friendships and believe there must be boundaries set. I think just blindly trusting your spouse or SO is dangerous.

Fortunately, my boyfriend and I don't believe in opposite sex friendships, and we're in agreement about boundaries regarding opposite sex relations...no hanging out with them alone and limiting contact outside of work / school are a couple.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

galian84 said:


> Sorry to hear that happened :/ Yeah these things can quickly get out of hand if left unchecked. Had it happen once with an ex-boyfriend, who was hanging out a lot with a "friend" who he talked about a lot. Well, it ended up with them making out at a party one night. And there have been several instances where I found myself almost falling into an EA...this is why I'm leery of opposite sex friendships and believe there must be boundaries set. I think just blindly trusting your spouse or SO is dangerous.
> 
> Fortunately, my boyfriend and I don't believe in opposite sex friendships, and we're in agreement about boundaries regarding opposite sex relations...no hanging out with them alone and limiting contact outside of work / school are a couple.


I think you and your BF are very wise. If there are going to be friends like this, I think there has to be definite boundaries and positively no secrecy.

My partner insists that he now "gets it," so time will tell.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> I think in instances like this marriage counselling is probably the best solution. I think sometimes, people in relationships can do this sort of thing for no other reason than getting their egos stroked (which I believe is my partner's case), but it's a dangerous thing to do, IMO. It creates lack of trust and unnecessary heartache.


This applies to my dh, who clings to a string of exes and defends them when I tell him I am uncomfortable. I think your observation makes sense. 

But my dh thinks that because he is pretty "open" about this behavior, that makes it okay. There is the implication that either he can share this reality with me or hide it and I should be glad that he is not hiding it. 

I have to admit that is a concern if you try to control your spouse too much. He or she might just choose to go on with an opposite-sex friendship but hide it so as not to make you uncomfortable.

Then you have to fall back on the rule that a healthy marriage does not have these secrets and hidden behaviors.

Complicated.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

questar1 said:


> This applies to my dh, who clings to a string of exes and defends them when I tell him I am uncomfortable. I think your observation makes sense.
> 
> *But my dh thinks that because he is pretty "open" about this behavior, that makes it okay. There is the implication that either he can share this reality with me or hide it and I should be glad that he is not hiding it. *
> 
> ...


So he's basically threatening you with hiding the relationships if you make too much of a stink about it? Doesn't sound very respectful to me. It's not about control - it's about respecting your partner's feelings and it works both ways.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

questar1 said:


> This applies to my dh, who clings to a string of exes and defends them when I tell him I am uncomfortable. I think your observation makes sense.
> 
> But my dh thinks that because he is pretty "open" about this behavior, that makes it okay. There is the implication that either he can share this reality with me or hide it and I should be glad that he is not hiding it.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear you've had this problem, too, Questar 

I agree with you about the concerns about appearing controlling, and I raised this concern with my partner. I told him that I have no wish to control him, but if he wants me to be in a committed long term relationship with him, he has to understand that I have boundaries. Should he decide to cross those boundaries, that will be his _choice_. How I choose to deal with this, however, will very much be my choice.

We've now agreed upon neither of us having close and personal friendships with members of the opposite sex, and he assures me that he now totally 'gets' where I'm coming from. 

I hope your DH wakes up and realises that he's placing you in a totally unnecessary and uncomfortable position, Questar, and decides to leave his exes in the past where they belong.


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## uneven (Nov 1, 2011)

sinnister said:


> Don't ever underestimate the power of sex. One weak moment, one drink too many, one argument too much or too few, one more day of not communicating and a woman can give in to her desire for a connection.
> 
> Where as....
> 
> A lot of dudes will "hit" if he's horny.


On point!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

questar1 said:


> This applies to my dh, who clings to a string of exes and defends them when I tell him I am uncomfortable. I think your observation makes sense.
> 
> *But my dh thinks that because he is pretty "open" about this behavior, that makes it okay. There is the implication that either he can share this reality with me or hide it and I should be glad that he is not hiding it. *
> 
> ...


My bf has tried that on me as well. I told him that he needs to balance honesty with diplomacy especially when he sees an LTR in the offing. 

The problem with knowing about your partner's relationships is that it sets up some responsibility on your part. If you know, for example, about his "special" friendship, then the longer it goes on, the more it can be viewed that you accept it. Ergo, if you don't like it then you must do something about it sooner than later, that is, either get him to stop or leave the relationship.

So this honesty stuff can really backfire on one member of the couple or the other.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> Sorry to hear you've had this problem, too, Questar
> 
> I agree with you about the concerns about appearing controlling, and I raised this concern with my partner. I told him that I have no wish to control him, but if he wants me to be in a committed long term relationship with him, he has to understand that I have boundaries. Should he decide to cross those boundaries, that will be his _choice_. How I choose to deal with this, however, will very much be my choice.
> 
> ...


We are working on negotiating this in MC. It's a more delicate dance than I would have wished. 

I suspect insecurity keeps a lot of us clinging to things from the past or looking for back doors. We don't realize the cost in the present or to the more important relationship right in front of us. 

I think the H likes the reassurance of back-up approval or security in his "old friends." I know there is some kind of fear in back of it anyway and I am willing to be a little more compassionate in MC instead of condemning (this is major progress). I don't want my attitude to drive the truth underground. Even if I hate that truth and want to scream "Boundaries!" which smacks of self-righteousness and kind of emphasizes the negative aspect. So lately I have come up with a positive term: Sacred Space. I asked him to respect the Sacred Space of our marriage. It came off a lot better to talk about what we had instead of what I didn't want him to have. He was cool with that, anyway.

Plus I stopped screaming.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Questar, I don't think boundaries smack of self-righteousness. I think they're a sign of self-respect and keep our relationships with others healthy. But if the term Sacred Space works for you and your DH, that's good.

I hope the MC helps negotiates a more comfortable scenario for you both.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

Kobo said:


> What is interesting is that some don't see this boundary as preventative but as controlling. I got some shocking news for you ladies. 90% of your male "friends" have had thoughts of having sex with you at some point or another.


do you think they dont know???


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