# Cheating for entire marriage



## Anonymous888 (8 mo ago)

4 weeks ago, I received an anonymous text that my husband was on a dating app, including screenshots. Over the course of two days, I forced him to admit that the accusations were true - and that he had been cheating on me sporadically for 5 years of our 10+ year relationship (including the entire 4 years we had been married). 

I had him move out after the first day and largely went no contact. He is desperate to “save the marriage”, and pushed back when I’ve said I need time before I am ready to engage on any discussion of whether I have any interest in recovery (although he has gotten somewhat better over the last week or two).

We are both doing individual counseling, and he seems to be making an effort. But it’s all intellectual - he says it’s 100% his fault, but I don’t really sense remorse. He’s made an effort to listen to how I feel, but there have also been a few calls where he has been manipulative (e.g., saying he feels angry because it feels like I’m not trying to save the marriage, pushing very hard to keep living together because “research says” it’s the right thing to do).

We are about to start joint counseling for me to understand what he did (and his understanding of why). I’m working to accept reality, but it’s difficult to given the degree of compartmentalization on his side - he told me he loved me nearly every day of our relationship. And while it wasn’t perfect, there were zero signs anything like this could happen (likewise, none of my friends or his friends had any idea). I loved/trusted him completely, and 10 years went up in smoke in 2 days.

Any advice? I’m going to hear out what he says he did any why (while protecting myself in case he tries to blame me). But at the end of the day I’m trying to understand how someone could do this, and if he is a sociopath/narcissist, person with an addiction that spiraled out of control, or just a generally ****ty person. And if there is anything he could say that would indicate I should even consider a recovery attempt.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

There’s a lot of talk that takes place regarding all thiS, but I’m a Sargeant Friday type person. Just the facts are important to me.
He’s a serial cheater the whole marriage—/ just divorce him. Don’t talk about it, wonder about it, think about it, or otherwise care about what he thinks. He didn’t much care about what you thought when he was cheating and not only stabbing you in the back, but also fishing your health.

Jyst see an attorney and ****can his sorry cheating self. He’s ANGRY that you don’t want to work on a “marriage” with him???
Lol. I’d divorce him if only because he’s a simpleton.


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## Tested_by_stress (Apr 1, 2021)

Cut your losses and move on. A serial cheater isn't worth another moment of your time.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Whenever he tries to manipulate you or bully you into taking him back just keep asking him this question.
Why is it that until you got caught you weren’t bothered about saving the marriage?


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Anonymous888 said:


> But it’s all intellectual - he says it’s 100% his fault, but I don’t really sense remorse.


There are approximately 1% of cheaters who actually experience remorse. The other 99% are so completely self-centered they just don't give a carpenter's damn about you, their kids,their extended family, or anyone else. They get their skin. That's all. It's the only thing they care about.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I was married to a serial cheater for decades. He didn't want a divorce and fought to stay married but despite his promises he never changed. Serial cheaters have to be willing to put in the time and effort to overcome their issues and most can’t or won’t. Know what you’re in for if you reconcile. I deeply regret not getting out the first time I caught him. I would have avoided many years of unhappiness hoping things would get better. You’ll have to decide if you think it’s worth it to stay married. My experience says it isn’t.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

As to why he did it, the simple answer is because he wanted to. What I finally realized with my exH is that no one woman would ever be enough. He needed constant attention and validation and admiration in huge amounts and that never stopped. Looking back, he had many narcissistic traits — life was always 100% about him. We married very young and I thought he just needed to grow up. I was wrong. Serial cheaters have issues that most of the rest of us don’t. They may seem great but they are damaged.


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## QuietGuy (Aug 31, 2021)

It is to early for you to be fighting for the marriage. Give yourself at least a few more months to decide if you want D or R and tell him that. Shut him down anytime he gets angry or tries to manipulate you. Tell him he has a choice to make. He has to face give you the time, space and whatever else you need to work through this or he has to face divorce.


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## Anonymous888 (8 mo ago)

Openminded said:


> As to why he did it, the simple answer is because he wanted to. What I finally realized with my exH is that no one woman would ever be enough. He needed constant attention and validation and admiration in huge amounts and that never stopped. Looking back, he had many narcissistic traits — life was always 100% about him. We married very young and I thought he just needed to grow up. I was wrong. Serial cheaters have issues that most of the rest of us don’t. They may seem great but they are damaged.


This resonates a lot. Both the narcissistic traits, and the “just needed to grow up”. We met in our early 20s, and I thought he was (slowly) improving over time. But this is something else completely…


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## rugswept (May 8, 2019)

Cheating throughout a marriage means there was no marriage. 
You're a live in regular, that's all. 

You may want to terminate the roommate relationship. Oh, staying with you is good to him, for you're the only one who wouldn't have thrown him out yet. Given more chances, he's got you to just forget the whole thing. No one else wants to put up with this. Do you? 

Your choice.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Serial cheating shows he has no integrity, no moral values, no boundaries with the opposite sex, he is a very effective liar and can't be trusted in any way. 
It's sickens me the way he is trying to pressure you
to take him back. Just yuk. 
Counselling won't change anything, he has no intention of being faithful and if he loved you he wouldn't act this way. He is only going to counselling so you dont hand him divorce papers. Shame he didn't go before when he was having all his affairs.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Him pressuring you now is because he is STILL selfish and wants things HIS way.
It shows he hasn’t changed at all.
Just divorce him. My experience is like yours - they don’t change - they just get better at hiding it.
They still want their comfortable life at home/but want to have the double life they live behind your back.
It is not worth trying to R with this type! He’s not sorry he did it - he’s only sorry he got caught!


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Openminded said:


> They may seem great but they are damaged.


They don't seem great, neither are they "damaged". ALL of the blame for a cheater's behavior is ON HIM/HER. They CHOOSE the behavior. It is not from "damage", it is from CHOICE.



Beach123 said:


> They still want their comfortable life at home/but want to have the double life they live behind your back.


Exactly right. Throw them out. They don't meet the standard.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

If that message wasn’t sent to you, it would still be going on. That’s the truth. If during half of your marriage, your husband has been lying and cheating, I’m not sure why he wants to stay married. If he were remorseful, he wouldn’t have serial cheated year after year.

I’m hopeful counseling helps you to see your worth as not being tied to him or this situation he’s created. It is probably incredibly devastating to not know who you’re truly married to, at this point. I wish I could have hope in him, but he doesn’t seem interested in marriage in the same way you do.

I would seek legal counsel as well so you know your options, and are prepared to leave if you decide to take that route.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Anonymous888 said:


> 4 weeks ago, I received an anonymous text that my husband was on a dating app, including screenshots. Over the course of two days, I forced him to admit that the accusations were true - and that he had been cheating on me sporadically for 5 years of our 10+ year relationship (including the entire 4 years we had been married).
> 
> I had him move out after the first day and largely went no contact. He is desperate to “save the marriage”, and pushed back when I’ve said I need time before I am ready to engage on any discussion of whether I have any interest in recovery (although he has gotten somewhat better over the last week or two).
> 
> ...


Serial cheaters don’t stop cheating, ever. Everything else is just noise not worthy of consideration.

Dump the chump — immediately and permanently.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

TJW said:


> They don't seem great, neither are they "damaged". ALL of the blame for a cheater's behavior is ON HIM/HER. They CHOOSE the behavior. It is not from "damage", it is from CHOICE.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly right. Throw them out. They don't meet the standard.


Maybe your wives never seemed great but my exH certainly did.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

My guess is that he was cheating in the first 5 years too. They rarely tell the whole truth. 

How dare he get angry with you because you won’t work on the marriage. It took 2 days for him to even admit it though you had photographic evidence! Both of those alone tells me he has a narcissistic personality, (not narcissistic personality disorder NPD, there’s a difference). At the very least he has narcissistic traits. 

The more I see on YouTube etc re that type of personality, the more I think that all cheaters have that trait to varying degrees. 

The reason I mention it is that the advice from psychologists who are experts in that particular field is to run, because they can’t be cured. 

I’d run & I wouldn’t even discuss it with him anymore. 
Who cares why he did it, least of all you because no reason will be good enough for you. 
It might even excuse him & he is likely to use it; poor me, my parent cheated, I had childhood issues etc, blah blah blah, whatever the therapist might come up with. 
As someone said he had 5 years to do self-examination & he was extremely devious in that you never caught him so he had to work hard to do it. 

He has already used up 10 years of your life. 

IMO, it’s time to see a lawyer ASAP & get all your ducks in a row as they say on TAM. He may not be good in a divorce situation, especially if he’s already angry with you for not trying to ‘fix’ it. 
So make sure you get a damn fine lawyer, check reviews of your local ones on google etc. I’d do grey rock, i.e don’t talk about getting back together, just discuss the nuts & bolts of the divorce. Kick him out too if you can. 

Do you have children? 

I know it’s easy for me to advise the above & you’re in shock. But it’s time for self-preservation now above anything else. 

I notice on TAM that people who leave their marriages rarely come back saying they’re unhappy. Generally they do so to advise others & many say they wish they left sooner after D-day. Whereas those doing R come back time & again, still struggling, sometimes years later. So remember, there’s a light at the end of the tunnel. 

Get out while you’re still young would be my advice.


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## Anonymous888 (8 mo ago)

********** said:


> My guess is that he was cheating in the first 5 years too. They rarely tell the whole truth.
> 
> How dare he get angry with you because you won’t work on the marriage. It took 2 days for him to even admit it though you had photographic evidence! Both of those alone tells me he has a narcissistic personality, (not narcissistic personality disorder NPD, there’s a difference). At the very least he has narcissistic traits.
> 
> ...


We broke up after 5 years, then got back together after ~1 year with intention of marriage. So seems possible it could have started then. But no way to tell. Luckily, no kids (although we were trying, which makes it worse).

I’m only engaging with him on procedural questions, or with a therapist. I’m staying consistent with him that I’m not ready to discuss potential for reconciliation. But easier to be neutral right now until I’m emotionally comfortable making a definitive statement (and shutting down any desperate acts).


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

👍 absolutely @Anonymous888, in your own time & at your own pace (Remember I said it’s easy for me to advise to do x,y,z ☺). 

Good for you that you’re only seeing him on procedural matters and at therapy. And kudos to you cos it’s such a horrible time for you emotionally 👍. 

Even though it’s harder becaise you were planning to have a child, it’s also a blessing that you didn’t. It’s a lot more difficult to leave.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Anonymous888 said:


> We broke up after 5 years, then got back together after ~1 year with intention of marriage. So seems possible it could have started then. But no way to tell. Luckily, no kids (although we were trying, which makes it worse).
> 
> I’m only engaging with him on procedural questions, or with a therapist. I’m staying consistent with him that I’m not ready to discuss potential for reconciliation. But easier to be neutral right now until I’m emotionally comfortable making a definitive statement (and shutting down any desperate acts).


By desperate acts do you mean he has threatened to kill himself?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

My Dad cheated down on my Mom, with a woman that was less attractive, not as smart, and not as socially popular with his friends. It cost him his marriage, and he never wanted to pursued the other woman once my Mom found out, even after the divorce.

Years later my Dad explained to me that it never was about my Dad picking the other woman over my Mom. It was my Dad picking my Mom plus the other woman, over just my Mom. He was a cake eater. No matter how good a wife my Mom was to him, she could not win, as she could not be better than both herself and the other woman.

OP, it’s not you, it’s your spouse. Your spouse is a selfish cake eating cheater, and that is all you need to know when deciding what to do next.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Anonymous888 said:


> We broke up after 5 years, then got back together after ~1 year with intention of marriage. So seems possible it could have started then. But no way to tell. Luckily, no kids (although we were trying, which makes it worse).
> 
> I’m only engaging with him on procedural questions, or with a therapist. I’m staying consistent with him that I’m not ready to discuss potential for reconciliation. But easier to be neutral right now until I’m emotionally comfortable making a definitive statement (and shutting down any desperate acts).


I would like to complement you on your approach and that not having children should make this much more manageable.

The first thing is to with your counselor figure out what you would like........ 

Remember that you can't force your husband to change, only he can change himself. That is something you need to constantly think about prior to your decision about divorce or reconciliation. If he get's mad at you and tells you that you are not committed to saving the marriage, tell him that he is correct, but it is only because he has not shown you that he can be trusted and that trust has to be earned. Don't let him try to manipulate you and your emotions, You get to choose how you will allow yourself to be treated.

When you get to joint marriage counseling, I do have some suggestions for you. Tell the MC that if you reconcile, you will probably want to have children at some point, but you don't know how you will be able to trust him as the father of your children. Ask the MC and your H how your H can prove to you that he will be a faithful husband and good father to your future children?

I would also suggest that you ask the MC to help you and your H draw up some written boundaries to his sexuality that will be an instant red line leading to divorce with no discussion or excuses. The two of you can include anything you want and agree to. It can include: bringing home and STD, strippers, porn use, cam girls, rub & tug massage parlors, other women, sexting, prostitutes, etc or whatever you feel is appropriate. Once it is agreed upon have both of you sign it and put it away in a safe place.

Again, if you want to reconcile, work with the MC to change the focus of your discussions from the past into the future. The two of you need to define what you want your marriage to look like so you have a common set of goals. What do you want your marriage to look like in 5 years, 10 years, 15, years, 25 years? Do you want children and if so how many? Do you both understand that there will be hard times with your children where they will come first and each of you will feel neglected? Are you both totally committed to working through problems so that you can reach your 25 year goals? What do want to do in your retirement years? What is your future. 

If (and you don't need to) want to reconcile, then have some written long term marriage goals that you both share and a strong commitment to making your marriage work and meeting those goals.

Good luck. If you cheating H really is committed to saving the marriage, he needs to prove to you that he has changed himself and is absolutely committed to making the marriage work. For the marriage to work you both need to have shared boundaries on sexuality and shared goals of what a good marriage is.


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## Anonymous888 (8 mo ago)

Diana7 said:


> By desperate acts do you mean he has threatened to kill himself?


No - more like exerting emotional pressure (e.g., grand gestures) or compartmentalizing and saying cruel things


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## Megaforce (Nov 12, 2021)

Anonymous888 said:


> No - more like exerting emotional pressure (e.g., grand gestures) or compartmentalizing and saying cruel things


Saying cruel things, eh? What does that tell you about him?


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

He was mean to you to get you to marry him? After you caught him cheating?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Boundaries??? At this point, if you don’t divorce him, he knows there are none.

the answer to this even with kids is simple. 
diesnt take a bunch of “if he does this” pr if he goes that……. He’s already done what should never be done.

he is who he is. Change? Why should he if you stay?

don’t waste your life with a disloyal partner.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Anonymous888 said:


> No - more like exerting emotional pressure (e.g., grand gestures) or compartmentalizing and saying cruel things


OK I get you. That's why you are doing the right thing by not having any direct contact. He clearly feels no real true remorse. More like anger that his little affairs got found out.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Anonymous888 said:


> And while it wasn’t perfect, there were zero signs anything like this could happen (likewise, none of my friends or his friends had any idea).
> 
> But at the end of the day I’m trying to understand how someone could do this, and if he is a sociopath/narcissist, person with an addiction that spiraled out of control, or just a generally ****ty person.


The fact you had no signs and no one else had any clue that anything was wrong, indicates that there probably is an element of psychopathy/sociopathy involved. 

And it's not an "addiction." It is a character flaw and possibly an actual personality disorder. 

He didn't fall in love with someone he worked closely with and could no longer fight it. He didn't just get drunk and stupid at the office Christmas party and ducked into a broom closet with the hot blonde secretary from accounting. He didn't break down needing human connection and human touch after being in a sexless marriage for the 5 years of a 30+ year marriage. 

- He was leading a double life and was presenting himself as someone and something he is not. He is simply not the person you believed him to be and very likely not the person you would have chosen to be with had you have known who and what he really is.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

TRy said:


> My Dad cheated down on my Mom, with a woman that was less attractive, not as smart, and not as socially popular with his friends. It cost him his marriage, and he never wanted to pursued the other woman once my Mom found out, even after the divorce.
> Years later my Dad explained to me that it never was about my Dad picking the other woman over my Mom. It was my Dad picking my Mom plus the other woman, over just my Mom. He was a cake eater. No matter how good a wife my Mom was to him, she could not win, as she could not be better than both herself and the other woman.


I’ve never heard cheating explained better than this.


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## Lynnsnake (Dec 4, 2021)

Anonymous888 said:


> 4 weeks ago, I received an anonymous text that my husband was on a dating app, including screenshots. Over the course of two days, I forced him to admit that the accusations were true - and that he had been cheating on me sporadically for 5 years of our 10+ year relationship (including the entire 4 years we had been married).
> 
> I had him move out after the first day and largely went no contact. He is desperate to “save the marriage”, and pushed back when I’ve said I need time before I am ready to engage on any discussion of whether I have any interest in recovery (although he has gotten somewhat better over the last week or two).
> 
> ...


You said you’re getting counseling. Why do you seek advice from a bunch of lurkers, like me, who probably have no training, experience,or expertise? Listen to the professional and forget the street advice.


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## Anonymous888 (8 mo ago)

snowbum said:


> He was mean to you to get you to marry him? After you caught him cheating?


No - I only found out about cheating last month.


Lynnsnake said:


> You said you’re getting counseling. Why do you seek advice from a bunch of lurkers, like me, who probably have no training, experience,or expertise? Listen to the professional and forget the street advice.


When something like this happens, it makes you question your entire sense of reality. So the process of writing down what happened and having people fully detached from the situation comment is helpful as a part of the process. But this is certainly just one (fairly minor) source of input compared to my therapist and the 3-4 close friends who know.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

TRy said:


> My Dad cheated down on my Mom, with a woman that was less attractive, not as smart, and not as socially popular with his friends. It cost him his marriage, and he never wanted to pursued the other woman once my Mom found out, even after the divorce.
> 
> Years later my Dad explained to me that it never was about my Dad picking the other woman over my Mom. It was my Dad picking my Mom plus the other woman, over just my Mom. He was a cake eater. No matter how good a wife my Mom was to him, she could not win, as she could not be better than both herself and the other woman.
> 
> OP, it’s not you, it’s your spouse. Your spouse is a selfish cake eating cheater, and that is all you need to know when deciding what to do next.


That is 100% true. Cheaters want more than one person can ever be. My exH tended to have long-term relationships (very likely with overlap). He absolutely didn’t want a divorce — he just wanted it all — and fought when I had finally had enough and told him I was getting out. He very quickly married a woman he met on a dating site who had many things in common with me. Not surprisingly, he didn’t tell her his history. My guess is he said I was just tired of him (and that was certainly the case).


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

[


Lynnsnake said:


> You said you’re getting counseling. Why do you seek advice from a bunch of lurkers, like me, who probably have no training, experience,or expertise? Listen to the professional and forget the street advice.





Anonymous888 said:


> No - I only found out about cheating last month.
> When something like this happens, it makes you question your entire sense of reality. So the process of writing down what happened and having people fully detached from the situation comment is helpful as a part of the process. But this is certainly just one (fairly minor) source of input compared to my therapist and the 3-4 close friends who know.


@Anonymous888 No one should EVER have to justify why they are on TAM with the intimation that you stop posting and go back to the therapist. . . I'm sorry that you felt the need to justify your presence on here.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Lynnsnake said:


> You said you’re getting counseling. Why do you seek advice from a bunch of lurkers, like me, who probably have no training, experience,or expertise? Listen to the professional and forget the street advice.


So you took time out of your day to say that? How super helpful you are, want a cookiie?


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Anonymous888 said:


> 4 weeks ago, I received an anonymous text that my husband was on a dating app, including screenshots. Over the course of two days, I forced him to admit that the accusations were true - and that he had been cheating on me sporadically for 5 years of our 10+ year relationship (including the entire 4 years we had been married).
> 
> I had him move out after the first day and largely went no contact. He is desperate to “save the marriage”, and pushed back when I’ve said I need time before I am ready to engage on any discussion of whether I have any interest in recovery (although he has gotten somewhat better over the last week or two).
> 
> ...


There's nothing worth saving here, sorry. Rebuild yourself in therapy and start putting plans in place to take care of you. I'm really sorry, but you have no idea what you don't know. 

If it was a one time thing and he was the one who told you AND begged you for another chance, he'd still have to earn a chance. I get that you don't want your life to change, but he already decided that.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Lynnsnake said:


> You said you’re getting counseling. Why do you seek advice from a bunch of lurkers, like me, who probably have no training, experience,or expertise? Listen to the professional and forget the street advice.


Then perhaps you should reconsider if it is appropriate for you to offer comments?🙄


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Anonymous888 said:


> 4 weeks ago, I received an anonymous text that my husband was on a dating app, including screenshots. Over the course of two days, I forced him to admit that the accusations were true - and that he had been cheating on me sporadically for 5 years of our 10+ year relationship (including the entire 4 years we had been married).
> 
> I had him move out after the first day and largely went no contact. He is desperate to “save the marriage”, and pushed back when I’ve said I need time before I am ready to engage on any discussion of whether I have any interest in recovery (although he has gotten somewhat better over the last week or two).
> 
> ...


You have no need to label him unless understanding makes you feel better and heal faster. He is a POS regardless of whether he is a narcissist etc. The reality is he did not love you when he was sleeping continuously with other people, he does not know the meaning of the word within the commitment of a marriage. I would not bother engaging him at all. Follow through on your own IC, do not believe a bit of his word salad, his has proven himself to be a liar over and over. Divorce and move on.


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