# What causes a man to cheat?



## Therealbrighteyes

I just found out ANOTHER one of my friends husband cheated. She is beside herself. She asked me why? I do not have an answer to that so I put my husband on the phone. He said because he is an ******* and a jerk. Again, I need to mention my husband views cheating as weak and disgusting. Divorce is better and he is black and white on this issue. He put me back on the phone to continue to talk with her. It was long and painful to hear.
So I ask (perhaps those who have cheated), what makes a man cheat on his wife and why? Temptation, better body, boredom? I don't know.


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## MRB

I have a friend who is single but having an affair with a married man. His reasoning is that his wife doesn't give him any time or affection. She rarely will have sex and she doesn't want to hang out with him etc. 
That is his POV. I have not heard the wife's side obviously as she is oblivious to the affair. 


Regardless of the reason it is heartbreaking.


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## Catherine602

I can never understand why a woman would knowingly hurt another woman by cheating with her husband? Cheating causes so much pain to the family and yet so many women do it with no thought of anyone but themselves. I wonder what these women experience when they get married and have kids. Do they trust their husbands? Are they ready to forgive and understand when they are cheated on. Do they see the justice in it. If women had any sympathy for other women they would never cheat. 

Do they realize that cheating men are using them so that they can stay in their marrige and that it is rare for a man to leave to marry her. And if the man divorces, he rarely consider the OW a good risk for a committed loving relationship. OW are useful for the man when he is married but hardly marriage material. 

I have a better question why do women involve themselves with married men? They get so little out of it in comparison to the pain they cause and experience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz

Catherine602 said:


> I can never understand why a woman would knowingly hurt another woman by cheating with her husband? Cheating causes so much pain to the family and yet so many women do it with no thought of anyone but themselves. I wonder what these women experience when they get married and have kids. Do they trust their husbands? Are they ready to forgive and understand when they are cheated on. Do they see the justice in it. If women had any sympathy for other women they would never cheat.
> 
> Do they realize that cheating men are using them so that they can stay in their marrige and that it is rare for a man to leave to marry her. And if the man divorces, he rarely consider the OW a good risk for a committed loving relationship. OW are useful for the man when he is married but hardly marriage material.
> 
> I have a better question why do women involve themselves with married men? They get so little out of it in comparison to the pain they cause and experience.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You could flip the gender references and say the same thing.


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## Pandakiss

we all want to blame the other woman but she only did what the man allowed her to do what you can turn down you h so should she my h said if our sex and itmacy is gone and brother/sister dymamic and he would feel our coupledom our union is ever man for themselves and it turned to a us vs them he said this is not about frumpyness or weight but trully emotinal i hope this does makes sense its not about changing your format but staying true to the partnership my theory is 80/20 dont let resements build up talk about the unspoken about and talk it out no fighting and dont belittle ever you loved that quark before sorry if its crazy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

Some googled links >>

Reasons Men Cheat – Eight Reasons Men Cheat

Why Men Cheat, Why Married Men Cheat - WomanSavers

Why do Men cheat in Relationships


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## F-102

10 to 1, the woman had no idea that he was even married until she was up to her neck in it.
Men and women seem to cheat for different reasons. Men usually do it for purely sexual reasons-one night stands, "she was hot and willing, I couldn't resist, and if I didn't, my buddies would think I was gay", my wife wasn't giving me any, I was drunk. Go ahead and say it: Men do it for shallow reasons, because they are shallow.

Women tend to cheat for different reasons-emotional ones. When a woman cheats, it usually is a sign of something deeply wrong in the marriage. 

In short, men are the kings of the PA, women queens of the EA.


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## lovelieswithin

I could publish a novel filled with reasons. Each case is specific to events and emotional strength of the partners. Cheating offers dillusional excitement in a boring world. It temporarily boosts the ego, sometimes falsely fills voids and it can be an adrenaline rush. Were drawn to mystique and curious by nature - monogamy is not even all that natural. I may sound like I am for cheating but I'm not... at the same time I get it. 
Life sucks & it's unfair: along with that people make mistakes. Cheating isn't the end of the world or permanent and in some cases can actually build stronger bonds. In others it can jack someone up permanently. Stirring your own pot of emotions is only going to bring more heart ache! I believe in practicing forgiveness and not being blind to the cheater's reaction & follow up after a major "screw" up. Is he sincere? is he remorseful? my husband shed tears after he screwed up and he beat himself up so bad my anger turned to pity as I practiced forgiveness. Our screwups have made us closer than I have ever imagined possible and now im glad they happened but wasn't at the time. Im sure people are reading this saying "shes nuts" but actually I'm happy & consider myself a survivor. When we stop being victims and practice forgiveness AND work forward on respect... love can truly endure & be unconditional. Even I have lines & bounderies but it's vital to be vocal on what those are and wear our emotions outward so we can address resentments. Resentments often justify affairs & let them happen. People don't usually do things they know will hurt unless they have justifications (even if the resentments are their own illusions about someone). Be open and be free with your spouse - TALK and bury resentments through resolution.
Your friend will be OK if her husbands affair wasn't strictly propelled by selfishness. Selfish people should remain single in my book. As for "gender duty" it's just not going to happen. I agree : how beautiful this world would be if everyone lived like June & Ward Cleaver with respect & kindness. But there's too many squirrels out there lookin for nuts in your tree. Homewreckers suck but at the end of the day they're miserable im sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris Taylor

Those who have not been in a bad marriage tend not to understand the dynamics that lead to cheating.

I knew three people who cheated and held them in very low opinion. After I had an affair I went to counseling and the therapist told me that most people, men and women, have affairs because they are not treated with respect within their marriage. This translates to abuse, disrespect, contempt, etc... which drives the spouse to look for that elsewhere. Sometimes, it leads to a physical affair, sometimes it's just emotional.

Now when I look back at my three friends' marriages, I can see that is true. It doesn't justify their (or my) cheating. I believe you either fix the marriage or get out. But those two options, as you can tell be reading the posts in TAM, aren't always easy to do.


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## unbelievable

"After I had an affair I went to counseling and the therapist told me that most people, men and women, have affairs because they are not treated with respect within their marriage." 

Absolutely!! Let's get real. There are only two sets of basic equipment and we all have one or the other. We all look the same in the dark. If a man cheats, he's not getting anything he couldn't get at home, provided his wife was willing and able to provide. Men cheat because the OM makes them feel masculine, desired, respected, powerful, etc, etc, etc. Either their appetite for those feelings is insatiable or those needs aren't supplied at home. If each spouse faithfully does their job, neither should have to go outside the marriage to feel good about themselves.


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## Xander

There are two reasons *"people"* cheat.

1. Opportunistic cheating. This is the situation where the husband runs off and has an affair with a ****tail waitress while his wife is pregnant, or where the wife has an affair on a business trip while her husband stays at home looking for the kids. This kind of cheating is *opportunistic* because it is generally not a result of a bad marriage. It's just that the person felt like some variety in his/her sex life, and he/she thinks she can get away with it. 

2. Unfulfilled needs cheating. This is the situation where the the "non-cheating" spouse (note the quotation marks) is cold, un-intimate, and distant. People who have needs -- particularly emotional needs for intimacy -- will seek it somewhere. If they're not getting it at home, they'll get it elsewhere. 

Unfulfilled needs cheating is still morally blame-worthy, but often times the "non-cheating" spouse -- the one who doesn't fulfill what the other spouse needs, and is thus also "cheating" the marriage -- is just as much to blame, if not more. 

It's easy to say that both situations can be preempted by talking, but since cheating is borne of a lack of intimacy and since intimacy is about sharing, this is really hard to do.

Really, both men and women need to preempt, if possible, their spouses' impulses to cheat. This usually involves giving their spouses a taste of the exotic. It also involves taking a step back and asking whether they're the best, most attractive person they could reasonably be. I.e., is the man out of shape and unmanly? Is the woman out of shape and un-womanly? 

I'm sorry for your friend. Chances are she didn't marry a COMPLETE narcissist. So once she gets over the shock of what happened, and once the husband express the proper amount of regret, she needs to figure out what her marriage was missing in order to prevent it from happening again. (And to prevent her own impulse to cheat.)


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## Xander

Xander said:


> This is the situation where the husband runs off and has an affair with a ****tail waitress


Wow, sensitive censor program.


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## Chris Taylor

Xander said:


> Wow, sensitive censor program.


Thought so too.


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## tjohnson

I agree with the notion that men can be opportunistic cheaters. 

I trully believe that men have to fight the urge to cheat. Even if they are happy in a relationship they can be tempted by a women if the circumstances are right (wrong as it were). Parada an attractive women whe throws herself on a man (especialy if liquor is inloved as it lowers inhibitions) and the happy husband may easily find himself dooing the horizontal mombo even if he never intended on ever cheating. I am sure this can be true for women too but, i think for the most part men have to fight their instinctive urge to reproduce (spread their seed as it were). This is why i personally think that it is dangerous for spouses to put themselves in situations that could turn to lust. We are all just animals by nature and think that lust can be a powerful thing. 

I was on a business trip and had an attractive women make her intentions be known that she wanted to have sex. In our conversation i had indicated i was married happily and loved my family. She still thought "we should just go for it". For a milisecond i actualy thought, wow I could do this and not get caught or have strings. Visions of my wife, kids and the pain i would cause stopped me dead in my tracks. Luckily for me my wife is good to me on many levels and pain it would cause me even if i never told her would always weigh heavy in my heart. 

I also believe ladies you should never let your husband go out/away with a loaded gun. You should arrange to have sex frequently if he has a trip planned or a night out. His recent memory of your intamacy will help. 

I have guy friends who love their wives but, suspect that under some circumstances they may yield to temptation. I trully don't think they act this way to be macho in front of their friends. it is trully what it is to be a man. Not necessarily to be a cheater but, having a tendancy to do so but, always resisting.


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## Rob774

tjohnson said:


> I was on a business trip and had an attractive women make her intentions be known that she wanted to have sex. *In our conversation i had indicated i was married happily and loved my family. She still thought "we should just go for it". For a milisecond i actualy thought, wow I could do this and not get caught or have strings. Visions of my wife,* kids and the pain i would cause stopped me dead in my tracks. Luckily for me my wife is good to me on many levels and pain it would cause me even if i never told her would always weigh heavy in my heart.
> 
> *I also believe ladies you should never let your husband go out/away with a loaded gun. You should arrange to have sex frequently* if he has a trip planned or a night out. His recent memory of your intamacy will help.
> 
> *I have guy friends who love their wives but, suspect that under some circumstances they may yield to temptation.* I trully don't think they act this way to be macho in front of their friends. it is trully what it is to be a man. Not necessarily to be a cheater but, having a tendancy to do so but, always resisting.


I wasn't going to respond at all to this thread since so many here put great points, but when i came across these i feel compelled to talk. See, i'm that guy, i'm that guy who gets it thrown at him and hear that little voice in my head for a half a second say, "You can do this just 1 little time and nobody will ever now." I suspect that little voice is the man downstairs trying to tempt me. I quickly snap out of it. Its hard ladies, it is so hard when you are a good man to turn the other cheek. I'm good loooking, 36, so i get it from chicks from 24 - 50. Me wearing a ring... that just makes it worse because they know you are disposable. They know if you have a family you won't be showing up ( assuming you are sane ) at their home at 2am. Some of this women are even married.

The 2nd bold can't be stressed enough!!! I don't want to sound sexist or chauvinistic, but ladies... break your man off, and just when you think he's had enough, break him off a little bit more. If your man is no good, sexing him everyday won't matter. But if your man is good, and treats you right, breaking him off sparingly at your convenience is a one of the quickest ways to have him start to ponder sex outside of your bedroom. Some ask themselves, "Well why did he cheat, we had sex everyweek!" Well maybe he was tired of having of having to beg for sex from the women he vowed to spend the last of his life with.

Last bolded statement... I KNOW GUYS LIKE THIS!!! I went out with the boys, and this pretty asian caught my eye. I mean she was a certified dime ( street talk that says on the scale of 1-10, she was an elite 10!!! ) My buddy says to me, if she came over to me, would i go home with her. I said with a straight face, "Naw." He looked at and said, "Are you gay?" This was a married man ( now no longer married - shocker!) basically saying if the opportunity presented itself, he wouldn't have a problem at all having a PA. He wasn't the only buddy i knew like this.


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## Nekko

Look, i'm sorry but i can't not comment on this. I've heard so many men say how manly they are for screwing multiple women. A married guy who says no to a hot piece of ass is considered gay. 

But let me talk from a different perspective. If i wear some skimpy sexy clothes, and go out and shake my butt around, i could potentially convince a high number of married men to have sex with me. I'd then have the power to wreck those men's families, their lives, their job if i really wanted to. Even if indirectly. Even if the man slips, by mistake, to his wife that he cheated. Their marriage might end because of me! Because that guy indirectly made me more important than his wife, family and possibly his own self (because he'll possibly get hurt because of this as well). Is this guy manly? Really? While the guy who can control his urges andthinks with his actual brain is gay? Geez...

I understand how for a single guy dating a lot of hot women can mean that he's successful. He has absolutely nothing to loose by doing that. But for married men? And women for that matter. Really? You'd really consider this? I mean...let me see, on one side, a relationship with a person who's supposed to be the person i'll spend my life with and i love the most (whether we're getting along at that time or not) versus a couple of hours of pleasure with a stranger that i'll most likely not even remember within a month (good looks, btw, don't guarantee a good lay)? Choosing the latter?

Nah, thanks, i've passed every one of these occasions with no regrets, as sexless as my marriage may have been. It's not hard to pass them because i would hate what person i'd become if i gave in to such temptation. What about my self-control? My vows? My understanding that attraction is at the bottom of it all a pretty animalic instinct and that i as a person with a bigger brain can control, transform and manage those feelings of lust, not allowing them to control me? My choice has nothing to do with how my spouse behaves, I am who i am. All those guys who find it so hard to say no to a hot piece of booty, did you want to be faithful in your marriage or are you doing it because society expects you to?

I'm not blaming anyone or trying to point fingers. I just don't understand (truly don't) how people can show such little loyalty to people they've personally chosen to be loyal to. It's like you poop in the food you plan to eat (for me, sorry if my language was off).


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## Deejo

Nekko said:


> I just don't understand (truly don't) how people can show such little loyalty to people they've personally chosen to be loyal to.


It becomes crystal clear when the loyalty you are referring to is subverted by one of the partners withholding what the other partner needs within the marriage.

To me, there is no difference between the betrayal of infidelity, and the betrayal of withholding sex from your spouse. 

But for whatever reason, withholding sex and affection, which is often the precursor for infidelity, has nowhere near the stigma of cheating. It is still a rejection and betrayal.


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## michzz

Deejo said:


> It becomes crystal clear when the loyalty you are referring to is subverted by one of the partners withholding what the other partner needs within the marriage.
> 
> To me, there is no difference between the betrayal of infidelity, and the betrayal of withholding sex from your spouse.
> 
> But for whatever reason, withholding sex and affection, which is often the precursor for infidelity, has nowhere near the stigma of cheating. It is still a rejection and betrayal.


I think it is lousy but doesn't even compare.

Last time I checked, one can't get an STD from lack of sex.


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## Nekko

Deejo, when withholding sex is used as a control tool and on purpose, yes, it's probably just as bad as infidelity because you are purposefully causing a ton of pain to your spouse. It's exactly the same thing.

i will however rule out the cases in which a sexless marriage happens because one of the spouses may still be resentful, the other doesn't understand why...list goes on...bottom line is the two don't really know how to communicate effectively and understand eachother's needs. Neither here are entitled to cheat. They should both focus their efforts on their marriage and make lists, write e-mails, communicate through Morse code, whatever it is that works for them to get the point across to their spouse. 

I'm extremely enthusiastic about sex and my husband. But when a post like this comes up and men actually claim that it's exceptionally hard to resist screwing other women and that their wives should actually consciously focus on screwing them until their spent completely so that maybe they won't feel that tempted that entirely ruins my respect for them. 

First of all because i suddenly feel sex is a chore meant to keep the man faithful. Suddenly his loyalty is conditioned and improbable. Secondly that spoils the whole "dominant" man theory for me and i couldn't be attracted to a man who doesn't show he has self-control and is mature/responsible enough to stay loyal -> lack of respect -> sex is chore -> lack of attraction = wife in sexless marriage because she isn't particularly fond of having sex with her husband. And then some men wonder why this happens and their wives turn them down. That's why. Because they come across as incapable of controlling their urges. That's possibly also why the more they ask, the more they get turned down. They don't at any point show they are capable of self-control and strength of character. 

I am in favor of MEM's theory 100%. When problems like this occur you go to your spouse and tell them that the consequence of their actions will be you getting a girlfriend/boyfriend. That comes across as determined and mature. Drooling over some random chick is not confident manly male behaviour. It's completely the opposite. I am sincerely not trying to be offensive. Sometimes you wonder what your women are thinking (naturally we're not all the same). I posted this in an attempt to be completely honest even though some people might see it harsh. This is how i see the situation and exactly what would get me to not be interested in sex assuming my man did it.


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## winter20

Brennan said:


> I just found out ANOTHER one of my friends husband cheated. She is beside herself. She asked me why? I do not have an answer to that so I put my husband on the phone. He said because he is an ******* and a jerk. Again, I need to mention my husband views cheating as weak and disgusting. Divorce is better and he is black and white on this issue. He put me back on the phone to continue to talk with her. It was long and painful to hear.
> So I ask (perhaps those who have cheated), what makes a man cheat on his wife and why? Temptation, better body, boredom? I don't know.


The same reason women cheat, temptation, boredom, lack of affection, addiction. There are many, many reasons and many men and many women who do it


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## Deejo

Nekko said:


> ...bottom line is the two don't really know how to communicate effectively and understand each other's needs. Neither here are entitled to cheat. They should both focus their efforts on their marriage and make lists, write e-mails, communicate through Morse code, whatever it is that works for them to get the point across to their spouse.


And that right there is almost always the core issue. 



> First of all because i suddenly feel sex is a chore meant to keep the man faithful. Suddenly his loyalty is conditioned and improbable. Secondly that spoils the whole "dominant" man theory for me and i couldn't be attracted to a man who doesn't show he has self-control and is mature/responsible enough to stay loyal -> lack of respect -> sex is chore -> lack of attraction = wife in sexless marriage because she isn't particularly fond of having sex with her husband. And then some men wonder why this happens and their wives turn them down. That's why. Because they come across as incapable of controlling their urges. That's possibly also why the more they ask, the more they get turned down. They don't at any point show they are capable of self-control and strength of character.


This is interesting, and I think very worthwhile for other men to read. You illustrate the cyclical nature of the sexless marriage. She doesn't respect him, she isn't attracted. She isn't attracted, his attention and his eye starts to stray; she becomes even less attracted.



> I am in favor of MEM's theory 100%. When problems like this occur you go to your spouse and tell them that the consequence of their actions will be you getting a girlfriend/boyfriend. That comes across as determined and mature. Drooling over some random chick is not confident manly male behaviour.


So am I. But the reality there is, that if you haven't already set the groundwork in your relationship, you will end up with the reaction that you illustrated in the paragraph above. Bottom line here is, is there really going to be a difference in your mind if I'm sleeping with someone else whether I tell you or not?

The reality of following through on those consequences is that it's still infidelity.

But, I can assure you that will be the path I take in my relationships going forward.


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## Nekko

Deejo said:


> So am I. But the reality there is, that if you haven't already set the groundwork in your relationship, you will end up with the reaction that you illustrated in the paragraph above. Bottom line here is, is there really going to be a difference in your mind if I'm sleeping with someone else whether I tell you or not?


Well, for me, personally, yes, it makes all the difference in the world. It states : i am a mature, loyal and responsible person. You haven't held up your part of the deal in this marriage and are thus making me miserable. I deserve to be happy, as do you. Assuming you don't want to work on making me happy (no one's stating fake and act like a porn star but rather put effort into re-achieving a healthy sex life) then i shall find someone who is more interested in making me happy and giving me what i need. You're actions are thus followed by the logical consequence. I'm not being unfair or cowardly, i'm just reacting to the situation as i should be. 
+ one thing...trust, once lost, is incredibly hard to restore. A guy or gal who does this will not loose the trust of their partner. That's because they've made clear their intention and how unhappy they are. No hiding no misleading. For me personally that's quite important. 

The other version is : i didn't do much to try and solve the problem, i'm not strong enough or confident to leave or hold a serious discussion so i'll just let my self-esteem sink to rock bottom and just fall pray to any person who's attractive and shows me some attention or respect. Then i'll potentially loose my family, house or whatever else an affair might lead to. Or in the fortunate case, my spouse will forgive me and i'll do what i should've done in the first place, finally have the courage to talk to my spouse and fix some things but spend the next ten years convincing them that they should trust me and i won't cheat again. (for the record, i've been here and i've been tempted. I stopped before the cheating part though. I realized in time that i was acting silly, hit rock bottom and i decided to turn my life around. Other options were only tempting until i realized i don't need another person to confirm me or make me feel good about myself.). 

It's good that you plan to do that. Standing up for oneself paired with loyalty is a killer combination in any person.


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## greenpearl

Nekko, very logical debate. 

A lot of men don't have self-control, especially when there is a sexy woman in front of him. In Chinese, we say a lot of men use their little brain(penis) to think instead of their big brain. It means they can't think. They do, then they regret, ask for forgiveness. We can forgive, but we can't be intimate again. 

I often think it is in their blood to cheat. They are born like this. So men with self-control ability are rare and valuable, if we do land one, we have to cherish them and worship them and value them tremendously!


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## Trenton

Nekko said:


> Deejo, when withholding sex is used as a control tool and on purpose, yes, it's probably just as bad as infidelity because you are purposefully causing a ton of pain to your spouse. It's exactly the same thing.
> 
> i will however rule out the cases in which a sexless marriage happens because one of the spouses may still be resentful, the other doesn't understand why...list goes on...bottom line is the two don't really know how to communicate effectively and understand eachother's needs. Neither here are entitled to cheat. They should both focus their efforts on their marriage and make lists, write e-mails, communicate through Morse code, whatever it is that works for them to get the point across to their spouse.
> 
> I'm extremely enthusiastic about sex and my husband. But when a post like this comes up and men actually claim that it's exceptionally hard to resist screwing other women and that their wives should actually consciously focus on screwing them until their spent completely so that maybe they won't feel that tempted that entirely ruins my respect for them.
> 
> First of all because i suddenly feel sex is a chore meant to keep the man faithful. Suddenly his loyalty is conditioned and improbable. Secondly that spoils the whole "dominant" man theory for me and i couldn't be attracted to a man who doesn't show he has self-control and is mature/responsible enough to stay loyal -> lack of respect -> sex is chore -> lack of attraction = wife in sexless marriage because she isn't particularly fond of having sex with her husband. And then some men wonder why this happens and their wives turn them down. That's why. Because they come across as incapable of controlling their urges. That's possibly also why the more they ask, the more they get turned down. They don't at any point show they are capable of self-control and strength of character.
> 
> I am in favor of MEM's theory 100%. When problems like this occur you go to your spouse and tell them that the consequence of their actions will be you getting a girlfriend/boyfriend. That comes across as determined and mature. Drooling over some random chick is not confident manly male behaviour. It's completely the opposite. I am sincerely not trying to be offensive. Sometimes you wonder what your women are thinking (naturally we're not all the same). I posted this in an attempt to be completely honest even though some people might see it harsh. This is how i see the situation and exactly what would get me to not be interested in sex assuming my man did it.


Amen Sister!


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## Deejo

If tjohnson or Rob had simply said "Happy spouses don't stray." You would have agreed.
Guess what one of the number one things to make us happy is?

Don't want your man to cheat? Don't give him reason to. It's all the same thing, wrapped up in different bows.


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> If tjohnson or Rob had simply said "Happy spouses don't stray." You would have agreed.
> Guess what one of the number one things to make us happy is?
> 
> Don't want your man to cheat? Don't give him reason to. It's all the same thing, wrapped up in different bows.


Nah, cheating is a choice each and every time. Cheating is a deal breaker for most whereas withholding sex can be completely solved without the other spouse feeling betrayed. Withholding sex equals too much resentment and anger on one party's behalf. Cheating because you need to stick your **** in a hole or your hole wants to be filled equals betrayal. Each and every time.


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## Trenton

Oh and I must add, that they didn't say that. In one post I read that you should bone your husband a lot before he goes away so that he doesn't stray. Uh.....chicken said what?


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## Mom6547

Chris Taylor said:


> Those who have not been in a bad marriage tend not to understand the dynamics that lead to cheating.
> 
> I knew three people who cheated and held them in very low opinion. After I had an affair I went to counseling and the therapist told me that most people, men and women, have affairs because they are not treated with respect within their marriage. This translates to abuse, disrespect, contempt, etc... which drives the spouse to look for that elsewhere. Sometimes, it leads to a physical affair, sometimes it's just emotional.


Why cheat? Why not get OUT before proceeding?


> Now when I look back at my three friends' marriages, I can see that is true. It doesn't justify their (or my) cheating. I believe you either fix the marriage or get out. But those two options, as you can tell be reading the posts in TAM, aren't always easy to do.


What irks me is that people will cheat because things are bad at home and use things like money to stay in a marriage. Money is not a good reason to mistreat someone that badly. I can't get a divorce because I don't make enough to support myself so I will go schtick Joe/Jane...


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## Mom6547

Deejo said:


> It becomes crystal clear when the loyalty you are referring to is subverted by one of the partners withholding what the other partner needs within the marriage.


Choice of the word "withhold" notwithstanding, I was going to agree with this.

I am not the slightest bit tempted to cheat. I could go out any evening and bring home some sexy young thing. I can think of one or two guys I know I could crook my finger at, and be off and bootying.

But I have No Interest. I am getting all I need at home. NOT just sexual but affection, love, kindness, laughter...

I will bet a dollar that when you are starving, it is hard not to steal food. It is easy to say I would never steal when you have pot roast cooking at home.



> To me, there is no difference between the betrayal of infidelity, and the betrayal of withholding sex from your spouse.


Now I disagree, and maybe this is semantics, but I can see how someone would not want to have sex with someone that they were not feeling loving toward. I cannot understand capricious sex withholding. I further bet it happens a lot less than people think. For each poster here who is in an unsatisfying marriage in this respect, if the other spouse posted they would get a completely different story than capricious withholding.



> But for whatever reason, withholding sex and affection, which is often the precursor for infidelity, has nowhere near the stigma of cheating. It is still a rejection and betrayal.


How can you withhold affection? If you don't have it, you can't give it. 

I am not saying that the person who is not receiving the sex and affection is at FAULT, but the word withholding connotes a specific capriciousness, a desire to keep one from something. Bet a buck that isn't it. And if my husband and I were not getting along and he demanded sex and expected me to deliver it out of loyalty... he'd get a pretty serious WTF??!!


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## Mom6547

Deejo said:


> If tjohnson or Rob had simply said "Happy spouses don't stray." You would have agreed.
> Guess what one of the number one things to make us happy is?
> 
> Don't want your man to cheat? Don't give him reason to. It's all the same thing, wrapped up in different bows.


While I agree that what you says true, it seems to imply a lack of responsibility on the part of the cheater. Mr. or Mrs. Cheater should get home and get stuff fixed or get out IMO.


----------



## Trenton

> I am not the slightest bit tempted to cheat. I could go out any evening and bring home some sexy young thing. I can think of one or two guys I know I could crook my finger at, and be off and bootying.


Be off and bootying, eh? :rofl:


----------



## Deejo

We're wandering too far afield.

We fundamentally agree. If the marriage is happy, balanced, needs met, nobody needs to stray.

If there are issues, communicate and get to the bottom of them.

If they can't be resolved, part ways respectably.

The playbook looks easy, but painful too few couples are able to execute it.


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> I just found out ANOTHER one of my friends husband cheated. She is beside herself. She asked me why? I do not have an answer to that so I put my husband on the phone. He said because he is an ******* and a jerk. Again, I need to mention my husband views cheating as weak and disgusting. Divorce is better and he is black and white on this issue. He put me back on the phone to continue to talk with her. It was long and painful to hear.
> So I ask (perhaps those who have cheated), what makes a man cheat on his wife and why? Temptation, better body, boredom? I don't know.


Brennan, You may as well ask what causes a woman to cheat because both man and woman will give as many answers as there are days in the month. At the end of the day the “reasons” are all excuses for their behaviour which arises from their values and beliefs … about life itself. Cheating is a personal choice. Nothing more and nothing less than that.

Bob


----------



## Nekko

Deejo said:


> The playbook looks easy, but painful too few couples are able to execute it.


Yes, they should only allow people to get married with an instruction manual. At the end "do you understand the terms and conditions involved to being successfully married?". I know for sure i could've used one. Took me a couple of years to learn some lessons but they're useful. I bet i have a ton more to learn though.


----------



## tjohnson

greenpearl said:


> Nekko, very logical debate.
> 
> A lot of men don't have self-control, especially when there is a sexy woman in front of him. In Chinese, we say a lot of men use their little brain(penis) to think instead of their big brain. It means they can't think. They do, then they regret, ask for forgiveness. We can forgive, but we can't be intimate again.
> 
> I often think it is in their blood to cheat. They are born like this. So men with self-control ability are rare and valuable, if we do land one, we have to cherish them and worship them and value them tremendously!


I totally agree with this. I hold my contention that the nicest, loving most noble and loyal man IS TEMPTED on a level that women will not appreciate. Just like many of us men will never quite understand to change the drapes, have dozens of shoes etc. It seems common for women to think that happy men are instinctively loyal the way women are. This is not the case. Women have to recognize that men and women are different (in some/many instances in this regard). I am NOT making excuses for cheating spouces. I am merely stating what is to be in my mind a FACT for most men. If you as your husband if he has ever been tempted he will likely utter a white lie that he never has because saying otherwise will make you distrust him or it will hurt you that he was tempted. 

I DO agree that in some social circles constituting dirtbag men that there is this "if you pass up this peice of A#$ you are gay". I think however, many men behave badly even if their friends are not around. 

Men and women are just different. 


Red Hot Sex: 8 Little Known Secrets For A Lifetime of Passion and Love | LifeTwo

Over Coffee: Are Men Perverts?

Follow the above links. It does not excuse men for cheating but, it offers the reasons why. 

Ladies, I still stand by my stance that all men should have limited exposure to risky situations as any man, no matter how well intended could fall victim to his own primal urges. 

Failure to understand this is ignoring again what I believe to be fact. Furthermore, to think that "your man" is somehow different is niave and a big mistake.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

I swore I wasn't going to come back to this forum....but here goes...

I want to make sure I understand the "reasons" men cheat. It is available, she is too hot to turn down, he is happy, he is unhappy, his needs are being met he just wants variety, his needs aren't being met so he wants something else, wife is pregnant, he went out with a loaded gun, he has high self esteem, he has low self esteem and he thinks with his ****. Got it.

NONE of those are reasons, not one. A REASON would be "my wife has ovarian cancer and cannot have sex". Heartbreaking but it would be a reason. Everything else mentioned is just an excuse. Period. 

Why on earth would a man get married if those are the "reasons" he could use to explain away cheating?


----------



## SadSamIAm

I don't believe Men are just animals and will cheat if tempted. 

I think it all comes down to commitment. People used to stay married forever. People used to be faithful. Sure men have always been tempted. But their level of commitment has gone down. People leave marriages too easily now and people cheat too easily now.

The reason I don't cheat is because of commitment. I don't look for it and the couple of times I have been offered it, I have to admit, it was tempting, but my commitment to my wife kept me faithful. I don't care if anyone calls me gay or not. One time I was out at a conference with a bunch of guys and a girl (quite hot) hit on me. I told some guys about it and some of them called me gay. But they were joking. I think I earned a lot of respect from many of my colleagues for being faithful.

My wife withholds all the time. I hate it and I am contemplating leaving. But I am not contemplating cheating.


----------



## greenpearl

tjohnson said:


> I totally agree with this. I hold my contention that the nicest, loving most noble and loyal man IS TEMPTED on a level that women will not appreciate. Just like many of us men will never quite understand to change the drapes, have dozens of shoes etc. It seems common for women to think that happy men are instinctively loyal the way women are. This is not the case. Women have to recognize that men and women are different (in some/many instances in this regard). I am NOT making excuses for cheating spouces. I am merely stating what is to be in my mind a FACT for most men. If you as your husband if he has ever been tempted he will likely utter a white lie that he never has because saying otherwise will make you distrust him or it will hurt you that he was tempted.
> 
> I DO agree that in some social circles constituting dirtbag men that there is this "if you pass up this peice of A#$ you are gay". I think however, many men behave badly even if their friends are not around.
> 
> Men and women are just different.
> 
> 
> Red Hot Sex: 8 Little Known Secrets For A Lifetime of Passion and Love | LifeTwo
> 
> Over Coffee: Are Men Perverts?
> 
> Follow the above links. It does not excuse men for cheating but, it offers the reasons why.
> 
> Ladies, I still stand by my stance that all men should have limited exposure to risky situations as any man, no matter how well intended could fall victim to his own primal urges.
> 
> Failure to understand this is ignoring again what I believe to be fact. Furthermore, to think that "your man" is somehow different is niave and a big mistake.


That's why I walk with caution. My wonderful husband is a very committed man, but I won't become too confident and stop doing anything which make him happy. I do my best to make him happy, I find out what he likes and what he doesn't like, I satisfy his needs, sexually and emotionally. I also warn him not to joke with women much, never give other women wrong signals and cause them to think that my husband is easy to seduce. I strive hard to be a wonderful wife he loves, he being a smart man, he knows what kind of woman he has, it is easy for him to be grounded.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Sam,

You are a true man.

My husband views cheating as repugnant. He too had a woman (co-worker) throw herself at him at a conference years ago. Her exact words to him was "the pool is still open, I didn't bring a bikini, let's go skinny dipping together". She was hot and available (I knew her). He said that he was married and what the hell are you thinking? She said "so what, let's go for it". He slammed the hotel door and called me. He was very upset.
Is that typical of all men? Probably not. The difference is my husband comes from a long line of men who respect commitment and value their word. Their word is their bond and they view it as a personal weakness to break it. They will not nor would ever think of breaking it.


----------



## Mom6547

greenpearl said:


> A lot of men don't have self-control, especially when there is a sexy woman in front of him.


What a load of codswallop. Men are not children. When they act without self control, they are acting like children. I, for one, would not marry a child.

If you marry some stupid twit who thinks with his unit and has no self control then whatever deities don't exist help you.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Schoolmom,

Exactly! If we are (again) going to excuse biology/they couldn't help it then lets look at women. We are supposed to have babies with the fittest and healthiest men. Since I married the "best in the heard", I should have a biological reason to want as many children with him as possible. To hell with consequences, my vagina is talking, dammit!! I should sabotage my birth control and chalk it up to "not thinking, need, want, stupidity, he was too hot, I couldn't resist, etc. etc." 
A man is a man. They are who they are. A REAL man however OWNS himself and does not waver. It isn't even a fleeting thought. They do not compromise themselves, their values or their solid beliefs. That is the biggest thing I love most about my husband. He is unwavering about his feelings of cheating. He is not a puritan by any stretch, he is however black and white on this issue. If you want to cheat, divorce. If you are tempted, divorce. As I mentioned before, he comes from a long line of men who had every opportunity to cheat. His Father is the CEO of a very successful company and has women throwing themselves at him. He has never wavered, nor will my husband, ever. It is a personal code and very rare. A real man, being a real man.


----------



## Atholk

You are asking the question backwards. Having sex with any available female that offers is the default setting for men. It's what we are designed to do. Millions of sperm. Greater sexual response results from the availablity of more females and more attractive females. The Coolidge Effect.

The question you should be asking is why are some men faithful in the face of sexual opportunity.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Atholk, 

Why are some men faithful in the face of sexual opportunity? Because they are TRUE men. He is a man of his word, just like his Father and Grandfather. They do/did NOT waver from that. If he says something and commits to something, he means it. Nobody and I mean nobody would be worth risking his moral code. Again, not talking "morals" per se but rather his word. He does not back down from his word. Never has, never will, ever. 
He is the love of my life and the man I want to grow old with. I am the woman he wants to spend the rest of his life with. We are working through our issues with counseling and books and we will make it. 
And for the record, he didn't go out this morning (or last) with a loaded gun. LOL. If he's "up" for it (pun intended), dear God, so am I!!!


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> I want to make sure I understand the "reasons" men cheat.


I'm not interested in semantics, but the thread title asks for 'causes'.

And virtually all of the causes, or excuses that have been given are valid causes - meaning that affairs have occurred as a result of those circumstances. It's a pretty thick stew that we can stir up ad nauseum.

At it's most basic, somebody thinks they can get something they want, from someone other than their spouse.

As I indicated in another thread, through talking with many of my close friends about my circumstances, I learned that 3 couples that have been married for over 10 years, began their relationships as affairs. None of these people are 'evil' or of low moral character. They were in crappy circumstances in their first marriages and made crappy decisions as a result.

I've said it many times since coming to this forum. An affair is not the cause of problems in a marriage, an affair is the result of problems in a marriage. They just don't happen in a vacuum. 

No one, particularly someone that has been betrayed, is going to validate any reason whatsoever. I clearly understand why my wife cheated. I know her 'reason', but the reason is never going to equate to sensible or ok by me. My ex would counter that she chose to seek solace from someone else, because she believed I was in an emotional affair. It's a friggin rat-hole, that both parties would be better served by simply avoiding altogether. But we don't, we won't, we can't.

I vowed I would never cheat. Had I stayed in my marriage back in 08 for whatever reason, and had nothing changed ... I would have cheated. Nobody is safe - and you can't possibly know unless you are standing in their shoes.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> I'm not interested in semantics, but the thread title asks for 'causes'.
> 
> And virtually all of the causes, or excuses that have been given are valid causes - meaning that affairs have occurred as a result of those circumstances. It's a pretty thick stew that we can stir up ad nauseum.
> 
> At it's most basic, somebody thinks they can get something they want, from someone other than their spouse.
> 
> As I indicated in another thread, through talking with many of my close friends about my circumstances, I learned that 3 couples that have been married for over 10 years, began their relationships as affairs. None of these people are 'evil' or of low moral character. They were in crappy circumstances in their first marriages and made crappy decisions as a result.
> 
> I've said it many times since coming to this forum. An affair is not the cause of problems in a marriage, an affair is the result of problems in a marriage. They just don't happen in a vacuum.
> 
> No one, particularly someone that has been betrayed, is going to validate any reason whatsoever. I clearly understand why my wife cheated. I know her 'reason', but the reason is never going to equate to sensible or ok by me. My ex would counter that she chose to seek solace from someone else, because she believed I was in an emotional affair. It's a friggin rat-hole, that both parties would be better served by simply avoiding altogether. But we don't, we won't, we can't.
> 
> I vowed I would never cheat. Had I stayed in my marriage back in 08 for whatever reason, and had nothing changed ... I would have cheated. Nobody is safe - and you can't possibly know unless you are standing in their shoes.


You didn't cheat. You got out. This speaks volumes about you and it is a shame you willingly make excuses for others.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> You didn't cheat. You got out. This speaks volumes about you and it is a shame you willingly make excuses for others.


Not making excuses for anyone. Trying to understand and avoid those causes and excuses in the future instead of raging about the fact that they take place at all. Because they do, and they will continue to for as long as we continue to pair up.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

GP.
At the risk of being tossed out of this website, I am going to say whatever the hell I want. I defended you and your ridiculous "I like what you like" mantra for a long time. You have made it a point to appease men on this website, because apparently that's what you need. Approval from men. The women here aren't here because we like to scream and yell at our men as you claim. We are looking for information and advice. We are looking for solid advice and all you offer is that we have a hot temper. 
Just out of curiosity, if your marriage is so awesome, why are you here and not ****ing your husband like you ridicule all of us for not doing?!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Wait, what?! GP just posted something and THAT is what I was responding too. Her post is gone now! WTH? Is it my computer? Grrrr.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Not making excuses for anyone. Trying to understand and avoid those causes and excuses in the future instead of raging about the fact that they take place at all. Because they do, and they will continue to for as long as we continue to pair up.


They take place because people condone and promote them with reasoning and logic like yours. 

If I can come to a site where I'm justified for my behavior you think I don't feel better about my crap shoot? Responsibility. Where is it? For any party that cheats, ever. It is betrayal. Anything your husband/wife did to you before that is not justification for that kind of betrayal.

I'm not raging. I'm clearly stating that if you give a man, a dog, a woman, a female dog an excuse then they will gobble it up. Change in perception equals a change in acceptance. Don't believe me? Take a look at history anywhere in the world at any time. 

Maybe you've got it wrong and are doing everyone an injustice by promoting what it is you're promoting.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Wait, what?! GP just posted something and THAT is what I was responding too. Her post is gone now! WTH? Is it my computer? Grrrr.


Teehehe wish I read what she posted, must have been golden. You must learn to quote!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton,
How the hell do I quote?


----------



## Trenton

Go to the post you want to quote and hit the quote button that's the first of three blue buttons in the bottom right hand corner of your screen.


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## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Go to the post you want to quote and hit the quote button that's the first of three blue buttons in the bottom right hand corner of your screen.


It's spelt Q u o t e .... lol

And just in case. If you are logged in there are 4 buttons. The first is Edit, from the left that is, followed by "Quote". Do you need a map? That would be any good though. Turn right after MacDonald's and take the second left after Wendy's. It's 50 yds down the road on the lhs (left hand side).

Bob


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> It's spelt Q u o t e .... lol
> 
> And just in case. If you are logged in there are 4 buttons. The first is Edit, from the left that is, followed by "Quote". Do you need a map? That would be any good though. Turn right after MacDonald's and take the second left after Wendy's. It's 50 yds down the road on the lhs (left hand side).
> 
> Bob


I am very confused golf man


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> I am very confused golf man


We're not doing too bad considering we don't even share the same language. Bound to be some confusion when that's the case.

Bob


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Piss off Bob, I know directions. On top of that, you didn't spell McDonald's right.


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> We're not doing too bad considering we don't even share the same language. Bound to be some confusion when that's the case.
> 
> Bob


Did you just say you wanted me bound and tied? I'm reporting.


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Piss off Bob



Oh. We do speak a common language lol. I guess next time I'll have a Big Mc.

Bob


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Bob,

You drove me out last night but I am back. LOL. McDonald's is disgusting. My boys have eaten there maybe 5 times in their life. Ages 17 and 13. Hubbie and I used reverse methods on them since they were babies. A bowl of ice cream before spinach, broccoli or green beans. The treat was the veggies. They got to a point where the craved spinach and green beans (with a little butter) and that was their treat! They had every snack in the world in our house but chose veggies. They grew to love vegetables as a treat! To date, they LOVE all greens. A 17 and 13 year old who LOVES lima beans and brusell sprouts? They do! They are fit and good looking because of it.


----------



## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Bob,
> 
> You drove me out last night but I am back. LOL. McDonald's is disgusting. My boys have eaten there maybe 5 times in their life. Ages 17 and 13. Hubbie and I used reverse methods on them since they were babies. A bowl of ice cream before spinach, broccoli or green beans. The treat was the veggies. They got to a point where the craved spinach and green beans (with a little butter) and that was their treat! They had every snack in the world in our house but chose veggies. They grew to love vegetables as a treat! To date, they LOVE all greens. A 17 and 13 year old who LOVES lima beans and brusell sprouts? They do! They are fit and good looking because of it.


Hi Brennan, well first off I don’t accept responsibility for your behaviour, how you responded.

There’s one McDonalds within about 100 miles of where I live in Portugal. It’s a bit like Japan here where they just don’t go down well. I’ve spent some time in Prague over the years. You could quite literally see the lovely slim, healthy looking women getting fatter by the year after McDonalds arrived. 

You’ve done so well to steer your sons away from them and onto healthy food. I was sat in a café the other week and saw a thirteen year old order fresh steamed fish and rice off the menu for his lunch. That’s the way it is here, it’s wrapped right up in their culture.

Bob


----------



## Nekko

Atholk said:


> You are asking the question backwards. Having sex with any available female that offers is the default setting for men. It's what we are designed to do. Millions of sperm. Greater sexual response results from the availablity of more females and more attractive females. The Coolidge Effect.
> 
> The question you should be asking is why are some men faithful in the face of sexual opportunity.


Shall we go over why most people don't kill each other, beat each other until one drops to the floor or why women don't all marry the one, most successful alpha male in the region while we're at it? It's kind of all in our nature. 

By your logic all marriages out there should consist of providing husband, a woman and a child from some other man with better genes. As we shift more towards thinking with the superior part of our brain, some of us can control and understand our primal instincts and filter through what is right and wrong for the world we live in and for our own personal life.


----------



## oceanbreeze

my soon to be ex husband cheated on me with prostitutes. i found out a few months ago after he confessed. then a whole childhood trauma story broke out about his mom molesting him and his brother. 

as a wife, i made myself be constantly available for him: emotional, physical, spiritual, sexual, support, cook, friend. but he has much bigger issues. 

i also think other men cheat because they might not have respect for the woman. 

my uncle, a cheater, left his first wife while she was pregnant because my blood related aunt lured him away and also got pregnant. followed him, called him aside, and his first wife was her classmate in college. 

my favorite male relative, used to be a cheater, and used his 'tool' as a means to survive due to his lack of opportunity to have an education in his country. but now he works hard and has changed his ways.


----------



## AFEH

Nekko said:


> Shall we go over why most people don't kill each other, beat each other until one drops to the floor or why women don't all marry the one, most successful alpha male in the region while we're at it? It's kind of all in our nature.
> 
> By your logic all marriages out there should consist of providing husband, a woman and a child from some other man with better genes. As we shift more towards thinking with the superior part of our brain, some of us can control and understand our primal instincts and filter through what is right and wrong for the world we live in and for our own personal life.


Nekko, aren’t you missing the point of Atholk’s question?

“Why are some men faithful in the face of sexual opportunity”. Personally I think it’s an excellent question.

Some answers “I wont betray my wife”. “I wont wreck my marriage”. “I wont do anything to betray my loyalty, credibility and integrity”.

Bob


----------



## greenpearl

I was just wondering, why did God make women have 
. . . . . .

It's OK to have . . . . . .

Why do us women become moody and unreasonable when we have
. . . . . .

Why did God make us this way?

Why did God make men with high libido? ? ? ? ? ?


----------



## Mom6547

Brennan said:


> Schoolmom,
> They are who they are. A REAL man however OWNS himself and does not waver. It isn't even a fleeting thought.


Not exactly sure what you mean here. I think ALL people are tempted from time to time. The strength of the temptation may be dependent on how happy and satisfied a person is at home. 

Strength of character is used to resist said temptation.


----------



## Mom6547

Brennan said:


> Wait, what?! GP just posted something and THAT is what I was responding too. Her post is gone now! WTH? Is it my computer? Grrrr.


Quote next tome!


----------



## Mom6547

Trenton said:


> You didn't cheat. You got out. This speaks volumes about you and it is a shame you willingly make excuses for others.


I am not sure I read this the same way you did, though I am also not certain I read every post... but here are my thoughts, and Deejo can tell me how well I am recapping what I think his thoughts are.

Cheaters own their cheating. I don't think this is in dispute.

BUT conditions can exist that can make cheating more likely. Those conditions being present does not absolve the cheater from cheating. BUT all wise people learn what they can about these conditions, cheater and cheatee, if they wish to avoid such painful circumstance.

I find learning and understanding to be completely different from excusing.

I would have no patience with my husband if he chose to cheat right now. We are largely happy. But because of a health issue of mine, sex has been pretty uninspired and not very frequent for the last few weeks. It will be completely absent soon for up to 2 months. Would I *excuse* him if he went off and got some in this time? Hell no. BUT I am trying to give it up while still able even though it is not that interesting for me right now. 

I know that is sort of a lame example. But it the only one I can think of.


----------



## Mom6547

greenpearl said:


> Why do us women become moody and unreasonable when we have
> . . . . . .


GAH! Not everyone becomes a psycho once a month. Just because YOU do does not mean every woman does!


> Why did God make us this way?


Who is this god person of whom you speak. Not everyone believes in her either.

How does that go...

Hey baby you and me aint nothin' but mammals, let's do it like they do it on Discovery Channel.


----------



## greenpearl

Why does a man have to provide for his family?
Because he is a MAN!

Why does a man have to work in the office during the weekdays and work at home during the weekends?
Because he is a MAN!

Why does a man have to put up with his nagging wife?
Because he is a MAN!

Why does a man have to endure all his woman's crxx?
Because he is a MAN!

You drive your man crazy, he needs to breathe fresh air, he goes somewhere else. He needs to breathe fresh air!!!

Understand your MAN, respect your MAN, then you have your MAN!


----------



## Atholk

Brennan said:


> Atholk,
> 
> Why are some men faithful in the face of sexual opportunity? Because they are TRUE men.


My point is that unusual men are successful at monogamy. If women can figure out why that is then they can make some headway towards faithful husbands. There are things that wives can do that influences their husbands behavior. Ultimately if a husband cheats it is his choice to do so, but the wife can influence the decision matrix he as he considers things.

This whole "true men" thing you keep going on about is just an attempt to change male behavior by shaming those that don't act the way you want. It may not be as helpful as influencing men towards the behavior you seek from them as you think.


----------



## Atholk

Nekko said:


> Shall we go over why most people don't kill each other, beat each other until one drops to the floor or why women don't all marry the one, most successful alpha male in the region while we're at it? It's kind of all in our nature.
> 
> By your logic all marriages out there should consist of providing husband, a woman and a child from some other man with better genes. As we shift more towards thinking with the superior part of our brain, some of us can control and understand our primal instincts and filter through what is right and wrong for the world we live in and for our own personal life.


You're assuming a lot of my thinking here and are incorrect.

A much higher percentage of both men and women cheat on their spouses than don't. Cheating is normal human behavior. I'm not saying it's "right", I'm just saying that it should be hardly unexpected that it happens. In fact cheating is very predictably going to happen if a couple doesn't make the effort to be emotionally connected and involved with each other sexually.

In a 20 year marriage even fairly dull husbands are going to get a handful of opportunities with other women handed to them. The question is why in those moments do they not just move ahead and do it.

Hence me saying the original question is back wards. There's no point getting angry about normal human behavior. It's far more productive to work on ways to understand the unusual husband that commits to monogamy and see if something can be learned form it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Many times it comes down to Hormones. The higher their Testosterone levels, the more they "desire", even NEED sex or release. These men struggle more with temptation than the lower test guys (if they are not getting it at home). They generally crave more variety, more excitement, they are more aggressive naturally to seek & take a Hot woman down. Truly led by their other aparatus at times. 

The good thing about these men, but no consolation to their wives, is >> they have absolutely no care or love for the women they just holed, it is animalistic in nature. Ask God why he put such a DRIVE in men. Monogamy is realitively a newer concept in this world even. Unless a woman has a very high sex drive, she is not going to understand this part of her man at all. I am not saying he should be excused, just not to downplay hormones. They affect our brains tremendously. 

Why Men Cheat | Psychology Today


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Athol,
If cheating is normal human behavior as you stated, then why get married in the first place? You also mentioned that I am "shaming men" into my thinking. How is saying cheating is wrong, shaming? I don't know a single person (man or woman) who thinks cheating is okay and excusable. Why? Because society as a whole views it as morally wrong. 

SA,
If we are going to use hormones to justify behavior, I will go back to women needing and wanting as many children as possible. If I decided to sabatoge my birth control to get what I am biologically driven to do, could I just blame hormones rather than taking responsibility for my actions? Technically women are supposed to be more adulterous than men. We want the most sperm and the fittest to produce the best offspring. Women (in general) aren't as unfaithful as men though. Why is that? Maybe more control of ourselves? I really don't know.


----------



## Deejo

Interesting bit of social intercourse we have here. Reminds a bit of ... this


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! That and the dead bird skit are my husband's favorite of all time. Monty Python, for the win!!!

**Side note, one of the WORST arguments we ever got in to ended when he said "I'm sorry, is this a 5 minute argument or the full half hour?" For a second I thought my head was going to explode but then busted out laughing so hard I thought I pulled a muscle.**


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,

Intercourse? Interesting choice of words. LOL.


----------



## greenpearl

Deejo said:


> Interesting bit of social intercourse we have here. Reminds a bit of ... this


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Silly, isn't it?


----------



## Mom6547

greenpearl said:


> Why does a man have to provide for his family?
> Because he is a MAN!


When I was providing for my family, was I a man?


> You drive your man crazy, he needs to breathe fresh air, he goes somewhere else. He needs to breathe fresh air!!!


You know what happens when you assume. (Maybe you don't but I will bet google will have it.)


----------



## Mom6547

Brennan said:


> SA,
> If we are going to use hormones to justify behavior,


Brennan, I think you are hung up on REASON vs JUSTIFICATION. Manson killed those people because he was f'ing insane. That was his REASON, among others from his point of view I suppose. That is no justification.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

VT,
The article SA linked talked about the chemical imbalance in some men that make them cheat. That would be a reason. If somebody has a true chemical imbalance and therefore can not stop his impulses, thoughts, etc. The issue I have is that nobody on this thread posted about that. They just mentioned alot of justifications, all of which contradicted each other. Perhaps you are right though, maybe I am hung up. I personally see no reason nor any justification for it. It's pretty raw, given that another dear friend is going through it. If it is chemical, can't we just make a pill for it? LOL.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Brennan said:


> Athol,
> If we are going to use hormones to justify behavior, I will go back to women needing and wanting as many children as possible. If I decided to sabatoge my birth control to get what I am biologically driven to do, could I just blame hormones rather than taking responsibility for my actions? Technically women are supposed to be more adulterous than men. We want the most sperm and the fittest to produce the best offspring. Women (in general) aren't as unfaithful as men though. Why is that? Maybe more control of ourselves? I really don't know.


 I have never felt like having 18 kids. That would be a nightmare. 

It's not more control at all -it again is this raging Hormone testosterone (in many cases) & it's effects on the brain -which they have 10 times more than us, on average. 

I am not trying to justify anything at all, just stating facts as I have read them time & time again. You can google them for yourself, statistically Higher Test men HAVE more affairs, more Divorce, rockier marraiges. Of coarse not all -- morality, integrity, our beliefs, learning self-control is essential to these men but it is HARDER for these particular men to overcome, that is all I am saying. The smart ones remain single , since they know they may not be able to commit & realistically keep it in their pants. And they spare alot of women alot of heartache. 

Just as those who are Depressed are lacking the hormone Dophamine, we can not relate to their "funk" as the majority of us have adequate amounts, it is much easier for us to be HAPPY ~~~~ just as women are more likely to be self-controlled as we are not driven by Testosterone -in the aggressive way many men are. 

Of coarse their are MANY reasons men cheat, this is just 1 of them. 

**************

A study involving more than 4,000 men found that men with high testosterone levels (43 percent) were more likely to divorce and 38% more likely to have an affair outside of marraige. In comparison to men with lower levels of this hormone. 

I am married to a Lower test guy, He would not cheat on me if I starved him of sex, he has even said this to me. He wouldn't like it by any means, but it wouldn't kill him either. He is not controlled by his penis, his brain is not raging for sex 3 times a day -like it might be for some men.


----------



## Mom6547

Brennan said:


> VT,
> The article SA linked talked about the chemical imbalance in some men that make them cheat. That would be a reason. If somebody has a true chemical imbalance and therefore can not stop his impulses, thoughts, etc. The issue I have is that nobody on this thread posted about that. They just mentioned alot of justifications, all of which contradicted each other. Perhaps you are right though, maybe I am hung up. I personally see no reason nor any justification for it. It's pretty raw, given that another dear friend is going through it. If it is chemical, can't we just make a pill for it? LOL.



I was not trying to be rude when I say hung up. I guess I meant you see reason and justification as the same thing. I don't think they mean the same thing at all. So much of what you are reading as "justification", I am seeing as fact. Neither right nor wrong. No decidedly wrong. But truth/fact. I don't think the intent of those who are giving reason is to justify but explain.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Brennan said:


> If it is chemical, can't we just make a pill for it? LOL.


This very much may be the case one day! 

It has been suggested that Deadbeat fathers who abandon their children , who dont pay child support & don't bother to stay in contact are lacking in "Ocytocin". In studies, when this is given to male rats, they start acting like mama's , they will build nests for their young & guard them ferociouuly, and when given a drug that blocks it , they neglect them instead. Taken from this very interesting book about our hormones & why we act the way we do >> Amazon.com: The Alchemy of Love and Lust (9780671004446): Theresa L. Crenshaw: Books 

I can not understand why they haven't used Some kind of Hormonal drug to deal with Sex offenders, or maybe they have, I am not up on these things! But I guess we can not control their taking of the drug, so still a huge problem in the system.


----------



## Atholk

Brennan said:


> Athol,
> If cheating is normal human behavior as you stated, then why get married in the first place? You also mentioned that I am "shaming men" into my thinking. How is saying cheating is wrong, shaming? I don't know a single person (man or woman) who thinks cheating is okay and excusable. Why? Because society as a whole views it as morally wrong.


Because men also want a primary partner and families. You're seeing everything as black and white here. 

Everytime I hear a woman ranting about "a true man" would do X, or that a guy needs to "man up" it's always a woman trying to get him to do what she wants him to do. I'm sure if I started saying "true women" would offer sex on command you'd see that as a tactic to get what I wanted too.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Athol,
So a man wants a wife to bear his children, yet wants something on the side? 
I guess the bigger question in all of this would be why would a woman want to get married then? I didn't marry under the expectation of having his children, working, cooking and cleaning without the expectation of total fidelity.
I certainly didn't think I was ranting. I was asking questions, rather.


----------



## greenpearl

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have never felt like having 18 kids. That would be a nightmare.
> 
> It's not more control at all -it again is this raging Hormone testosterone (in many cases) & it's effects on the brain -which they have 10 times more than us, on average.
> 
> I am not trying to justify anything at all, just stating facts as I have read them time & time again. You can google them for yourself, statistically Higher Test men HAVE more affairs, more Divorce, rockier marraiges. Of coarse not all -- morality, integrity, our beliefs, learning self-control is essential to these men but it is HARDER for these particular men to overcome, that is all I am saying. The smart ones remain single , since they know they may not be able to commit & realistically keep it in their pants. And they spare alot of women alot of heartache.
> 
> Just as those who are Depressed are lacking the hormone Dophamine, we can not relate to their "funk" as the majority of us have adequate amounts, it is much easier for us to be HAPPY ~~~~ just as women are more likely to be self-controlled as we are not driven by Testosterone -in the aggressive way many men are.
> 
> Of coarse their are MANY reasons men cheat, this is just 1 of them.
> 
> **************
> 
> A study involving more than 4,000 men found that men with high testosterone levels (43 percent) were more likely to divorce and 38% more likely to have an affair outside of marraige. In comparison to men with lower levels of this hormone.
> 
> I am married to a Lower test guy, He would not cheat on me if I starved him of sex, he has even said this to me. He wouldn't like it by any means, but it wouldn't kill him either. He is not controlled by his penis, his brain is not raging for sex 3 times a day -like it might be for some men.



SA,

I am your student!!!

I am learning!

:smthumbup:


----------



## michzz

I don't think that men have any more hormonal urge to cheat than women do.

Cheating stats are roughly the same for both genders.

There is no gender superiority when it comes to self control.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

greenpearl said:


> In some countries, I think they give rapists some kind of pills to get rid of their penises in a scientific way! Chopping off( middle eastern countries)is too brutal, I guess!


 Accually I might not be against these things at all - make them Eunuchs! Here is an interesting article I googled 

Castration : who are eunuchs today?


----------



## greenpearl

michzz said:


> I don't think that men have any more hormonal urge to cheat than women do.
> 
> Cheating stats are roughly the same for both genders.
> 
> There is no gender superiority when it comes to self control.


In Chinese society, in our history, a rich man can have as many concubines as he wanted as long as he could support them financially. 

After Chairman Mao took over China, we started to enforce one man one woman marriage. 

But deep down in men's brain, they still think it is OK to have other women.

When a man cheats, his wife might still forgive him, we have just accepted that men are like this. 

But if a woman cheats, her man will divorce her right away, and women tend to be more family oriented, deep down in our brain, we know it is very wrong to bring shame on ourselves. 

This is our culture and belief, I guess western culture is very different in this regard. Western countries are being influenced by churches for many years, one man one woman marriage has been going on for thousands of years, women were taught to be submissive. 

Now because of the modern society, women have more freedom, they think they can have whatever men have, they have been freed! My opinion!


----------



## soccermom

Atholk said:


> The question you should be asking is why are some men faithful in the face of sexual opportunity.


That sir, is a wise question to ask.


----------



## michzz

greenpearl said:


> In Chinese society, in our history, a rich man can have as many concubines as he wanted as long as he could support them financially.
> 
> After Chairman Mao took over China, we started to enforce one man one woman marriage.
> 
> But deep down in men's brain, they still think it is OK to have other women.
> 
> When a man cheats, his wife might still forgive him, we have just accepted that men are like this.
> 
> But if a woman cheats, her man will divorce her right away, and women tend to be more family oriented, deep down in our brain, we know it is very wrong to bring shame on ourselves.
> 
> This is our culture and belief, I guess western culture is very different in this regard. Western countries are being influenced by churches for many years, one man one woman marriage has been going on for thousands of years, women were taught to be submissive.
> 
> Now because of the modern society, women have more freedom, they think they can have whatever men have, they have been freed! My opinion!



So why all these palace intrigue stories stories of old set in China when one of the wives runs off with a man other than the emperor?

Or the need for eunuchs to guard the wives?

I don't think it is a Western vs. Eastern thing. Nor is it a gender thing.

Some people have self control despite opportunity to cheat. Others do not.


----------



## greenpearl

michzz said:


> So why all these palace intrigue stories stories of old set in China when one of the wives runs off with a man other than the emperor?
> 
> Or the need for eunuchs to guard the wives?
> 
> I don't think it is a Western vs. Eastern thing. Nor is it a gender thing.
> 
> Some people have self control despite opportunity to cheat. Others do not.


The world is changing! Because of Internet and international communication, this world is becoming smaller and smaller. Men and women are both cheating. Men and women in east and west are cheating. Maybe middle-eastern countries are doing better since they still stick to their koran. A lot of Chinese women are very spoiled, a lot of western women are becoming tough, a lot of men are maturing later, men are becoming sissy, women are becoming macho, what is going on? Is it good? Where can the society find a balanced spot???


----------



## Atholk

The eunuch thing is offensive.

If a man suggested the surgical removal of a woman's ovaries and the sewing shut of her vagina as a method of dealing with her infidelity he would be banned from this board.

I'm at a loss for the moment why I even visit this board anymore.


----------



## greenpearl

Atholk said:


> The eunuch thing is offensive.
> 
> If a man suggested the surgical removal of a woman's ovaries and the sewing shut of her vagina as a method of dealing with her infidelity he would be banned from this board.
> 
> I'm at a loss for the moment why I even visit this board anymore.


Please don't take it too offensive!

We were talking about rapists there, especially those serial rapists. 

What can the governments do? You don't want us women to be their victims, right? 

You are a great helper for the forum, please don't say things like this!


----------



## michzz

Atholk said:


> The eunuch thing is offensive.
> 
> If a man suggested the surgical removal of a woman's ovaries and the sewing shut of her vagina as a method of dealing with her infidelity he would be banned from this board.
> 
> I'm at a loss for the moment why I even visit this board anymore.


Are you serious?

The comment was made regarding how ancient societies dealt with things. 

There was no suggestion of it as a solution to anything, nor an endorsement.

I am at a loss as to why you are offended by such a thing.


----------



## MsLonely

michzz said:


> So why all these palace intrigue stories stories of old set in China when one of the wives runs off with a man other than the emperor?
> 
> Or the need for eunuchs to guard the wives?
> 
> I don't think it is a Western vs. Eastern thing. Nor is it a gender thing.
> 
> Some people have self control despite opportunity to cheat. Others do not.


I think you're right! It's hard to keep the faith. It's easier to fool around. 
Some people have better resistance when some people don't. Men are controlled by their second heads (penis) when the second head has an urge and it usually demands the brain to look for a girl, instead of his 5 little brothers. (Fingers)
As soon the urge is taken care, he would go back to the normal status, that explains why men always go home to the wife after cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mom6547

Atholk said:


> The eunuch thing is offensive.
> 
> If a man suggested the surgical removal of a woman's ovaries and the sewing shut of her vagina as a method of dealing with her infidelity he would be banned from this board.


Not so long ago a woman who was emotional would have her sex organs removed. It was called a hysterectomy, removal of the hysterics!

Weird things happen in this world.

AFAIC chopping off a man's penis as a penalty for sex crimes is as barbaric as chopping off a thief's hands.


----------



## Trenton

Atholk said:


> The eunuch thing is offensive.
> 
> If a man suggested the surgical removal of a woman's ovaries and the sewing shut of her vagina as a method of dealing with her infidelity he would be banned from this board.
> 
> I'm at a loss for the moment why I even visit this board anymore.


Clitoral mutilation is still practiced in many cultures. It is similar but sadly even more common.


----------



## MsLonely

Trenton said:


> Clitoral mutilation is still practiced in many cultures. It is similar but sadly even more common.


This topic was about why men cheated, but now people are more interested in the discussion about how to remove the sexual organ of cheating men & women...


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> I was just wondering, why did God make women have
> . . . . . .
> 
> It's OK to have . . . . . .
> 
> Why do us women become moody and unreasonable when we have
> . . . . . .
> 
> Why did God make us this way?
> 
> Why did God make men with high libido? ? ? ? ? ?


Not all of us believe in God and not all women are only moody and unreasonable when we have our flow. Some women also have a high libido and some men have a low libido.

I for one don't believe God makes us anyway and that we are responsible for our own behaviors and the world we create. My period does not make me unreasonable and I am always moody. A woman is only one description of many to describe me.


----------



## Trenton

MsLonely said:


> This topic was about why men cheated, but now people are more interested in the discussion about how to remove the sexual organ of cheating men & women...


Yes, I'm trying to catch up. Missed most of the social intercourse apparently. From what I'm reading it wasn't that satisfying. heh


----------



## Nekko

AFEH said:


> Nekko, aren’t you missing the point of Atholk’s question?
> 
> “Why are some men faithful in the face of sexual opportunity”. Personally I think it’s an excellent question.
> 
> Some answers “I wont betray my wife”. “I wont wreck my marriage”. “I wont do anything to betray my loyalty, credibility and integrity”.
> 
> Bob


Yes, i got angry and overreacted. That's true. That's because i'm starting to wonder if it's ever worth trusting a man, if there's any point in marriage and fidelity, if i'd be happier if i were to avoid men all together, if my love and lust for my man has suddenly become a chore (oh, he's going on a trip, i should have sex with him two times because perhaps that way it will lower the chances that he cheats). 

When i promised i wouldn't cheat, i took into account all the bad parts of marriage as well (when we're not getting along, when the marriage might be sexless, when i'll meet one of those guys that make me feel "in heat" and i'm literally not thinking straight, visualizing their toys and how i'd ride them over and over again. I know what it's like for hormones to kick in). 

You give great reasons for being faithful. Those are mine as well. 




Atholk said:


> Hence me saying the original question is back wards. There's no point getting angry about normal human behavior. It's far more productive to work on ways to understand the unusual husband that commits to monogamy and see if something can be learned form it.


Hey, i'm not trying to be annoying or rude...i honestly know that it's better to understand things and work on them. My question isn't why we're all tempted. That's perfectly natural for all of us. I know perfectly well what being tempted means. 

So i'll continue with a couple of questions:
1. Should women ever feel at peace when their men are alone and out of the house? Should we constantly be terrified on every business trip they go on?
2. Why do men get so angry when their women ask them if they'd cheated, if it's somewhat "normal" that they think about doing it?
3. When our men tell us how much they love us and how convinced they are they'll be faithful regardless of what opportunities are thrown their way, how much should we really believe them?


----------



## Nekko

For the sake of argument. I started out being loving, understanding, completely loving my man and trusting him 100 percent. I don't care about the temptation that may be going on in his brain, i just trusted him to honor me and our marriage and say pass. I started out as a girl who was attracted by virtually anyone. I used to look at and have a crush on 10-12 males at the same time before i was married, easily. My mind still wonders off, often towards multiple good looking men that pass me by. So for the most part i guess i can understand how a guy feels when he's surrounded by a lot of beautiful women on a daily basis. 

Because of this marriage and my wanting to be loyal to my hubby i worked on disciplining myself and completely controlling my urges. I understood how they work, when and why i feel attraction, what might make me loose control and now i'm perfectly able to handle them. Since he's a man and it's apparently unatural for men to be faithful, what are the chances that (assuming he's a good guy), he'll repay me with the same level of faithfulness?


----------



## Conrad

Nekko,

I've been in both camps.

My ex-wife did not interest other men and - least of all - me.

My second wife simply cannot help attention that just freely flows her way.

We have the spark that Wolf and MEM speak about. That's not to say we haven't had our rough moments. For example, right now things are a bit icy. Yet, it's still there. We both admit it.

A woman's best "protection" - such as it is - would be to make certain her husband and she share this spark.

I simply do not look elsewhere. There is no way to imagine it. Yet, I am a high-testosterone male and I do notice beautiful women.

I'm not certain this offers much solace. Yet, this is how it's been for me.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> Nekko,
> 
> I've been in both camps.
> 
> My ex-wife did not interest other men and - least of all - me.
> 
> My second wife simply cannot help attention that just freely flows her way.
> 
> We have the spark that Wolf and MEM speak about. That's not to say we haven't had our rough moments. For example, right now things are a bit icy. Yet, it's still there. We both admit it.
> 
> A woman's best "protection" - such as it is - would be to make certain her husband and she share this spark.
> 
> I simply do not look elsewhere. There is no way to imagine it. Yet, I am a high-testosterone male and I do notice beautiful women.
> 
> I'm not certain this offers much solace. Yet, this is how it's been for me.


OK, fair and real enough but let me ask a question...what can a man do to prevent his wife from wandering? Maintain an emotional connection?

I think in this case that the same advice is true for both sexes. My husband and I had a conversation yesterday after a weekend of married bliss about temptations. I had told him that on TAM there are a lot of men who admit to being faced with temptation all the time and we were discussing how to avoid it. I asked him for honesty as the truth is I have no idea how often my husband is tempted.

He began to list a few but said overall his temptations have been little because he doesn't behave in a flirtatious manner so women pick up on the idea that he's not interested or available...apparently a wedding ring alone doesn't mean that much. I think the biggest danger is this type of work related flirtation because you are side by side with the same temptations day in and day out especially if you can't avoid contact. A friendship with a co-worker can insidiously turn into a relationship the two might not have intended or expected.

He asked me how often I've been approached and as a women I think we are approached more. Am I wrong? I don't know but I get approached often and I'm not even at a job on a regular basis and usually have all three of my kids in tow. Still, at the park...sheesh, even at Chuckie Cheese, I've had men approach me bluntly and sometimes oddly when I wasn't even sure at first if they were or weren't (and it was always a real turn off). I recently had a man email me after a party we had who was also married and couldn't believe the audacity of his words.

For me a relationship with another person would happen slowly as I'd have to have an emotional connection to even consider it a temptation. I've had this happen a few times so have learned to be quite blunt about the fact that I'm married and devoted from the beginning. Is it ever enough though if you're going through a rough period with your own relationship? I like to believe I wouldn't betray my husband and that I am loyal and devoted beyond temporary insanity and longing.


----------



## AFEH

Nekko said:


> 2. Why do men get so angry when their women ask them if they'd cheated, if it's somewhat "normal" that they think about doing it?


Isn’t the response the same if you were to ask your husband if he is a thief or a child molester? If your husband truly values fidelity as a virtue, a good moral quality, in himself then he is going to feel insulted to his core if you ask him that sort of question in that way.

Bob


----------



## Nekko

AFEH said:


> Isn’t the response the same if you were to ask your husband if he is a thief or a child molester? If your husband truly values fidelity as a virtue, a good moral quality, in himself then he is going to feel insulted to his core if you ask him that sort of question in that way.
> 
> Bob


For me yes, it would be. But you see, some women are stuck between two scenarios. First of all, our men keep on telling us that they are loyal, faithful and committed (some of them are while others are lying). 

On the other hand, some men claim that most men will have a wondering eye to the point where remaining faithful is hard or close to impossible given a good set of circumstances. This makes those women wonder : so, what about my man? Is he just saying that to make me feel secure or is he actually confident in his faithfulness? 

This question is considerably important for me personally because at this age (while still childless), i'll have to decide whether he's safe enough (in reality) for me to give my all and build a family with him (the nice guy-dominant guy we've recently talked about. he appeared a part of the first category at the beginning but now - possibly because i'm more aroused by him- he seems more alpha...something that deeply troubles me). His response could be anger because he is insulted by the question or it could be anger as a defense mechanism (he has those cheating traits but doesn't want to admit them to his wife). But yes, you're right it's a tricky potentially offensive question.


----------



## AFEH

You married the guy Nekko and now you’re wondering if he’s safe enough to give him your all re children and that?

Look, you may well bring about what you are fearing. Keep on at your husband, asking if he’s cheated or thinking about it and he may well come to believe that you believe he has. That’s a terrible situation for a man to be in. In addition he may well come to wonder why you are so focused on him cheating and start to believe that you are cheating. On top of that if he does think you believe him to be a cheater then he may come to believe he may as well go and cheat because he’s getting hung anyway.

Bob


----------



## Nekko

AFEH said:


> You married the guy Nekko and now you’re wondering if he’s safe enough to give him your all re children and that?
> 
> Look, you may well bring about what you are fearing. Keep on at your husband, asking if he’s cheated or thinking about it and he may well come to believe that you believe he has. That’s a terrible situation for a man to be in. In addition he may well come to wonder why you are so focused on him cheating and start to believe that you are cheating. On top of that if he does think you believe him to be a cheater then he may come to believe he may as well go and cheat because he’s getting hung anyway.
> 
> Bob


Yes i am aware of all that. For the first 5-6 years of my marriage there was no doubt in my mind that he could be unfaithful or that he wasn't the person i'd spend the rest of my life with. This period followed by several years in which we didn't get along or communicate effectively. Because of our age, we did a lot of changing and adapting to society and our new environment in that period. 

He kept a ton of resentment bottled inside, i did pretty much the same. Neither of us revealed a lot of stuff about that period. Nowadays, my perception of him is changed for some reason (as i mentioned previously, could be because there's some mystery now, because i'm more attracted to him, because i realized i don't "own" him and he's free to do as he pleases, because even in our marriage that i considered "perfect" things have gone bad) and i feel like i need to start all over again in trusting him and realize which of these two perceptions of him is accurate, the one of the nice, loving family guy i previously had or the one of the more competitive, alpha male, flirty and outgoing guy i see now. Don't get me wrong, i'll stay with him till we're old even if he cheats as i love him the same (no, in fact more than before).It's the feeling of mistrust i really have a problem with. I just don't want to feel it because i believe i should love him unconditionally, if that makes sense.


----------



## foreversomeoneelse

Nekko said:


> For me yes, it would be. *But you see, some women are stuck between two scenarios. First of all, our men keep on telling us that they are loyal, faithful and committed (some of them are while others are lying).
> 
> On the other hand, some men claim that most men will have a wondering eye to the point where remaining faithful is hard or close to impossible given a good set of circumstances. This makes those women wonder : so, what about my man? Is he just saying that to make me feel secure or is he actually confident in his faithfulness?*


I have to bump this thread.
The bold part is essentially a page from my diary.

Men want women to trust them. Men admit they have a hard time being faithful. A lot. 
What do do with this dilemma?


----------



## Love Song

low self respect??


food for thought


----------



## foreversomeoneelse

Love Song said:


> low self respect??
> 
> 
> food for thought


I doubt that. 
There are many guys who think they are gods gift to women and sleep around on their SOs.
That would be too easy.
I am saying its biology. Its in their genes.


Too bad women werent given a gene that makes infidelity committed against them painless in response.


----------



## MominMayberry

foreversomeoneelse said:


> I doubt that.
> There are many guys who think they are gods gift to women and sleep around on their SOs.
> That would be too easy.
> I am saying its biology. Its in their genes.
> 
> 
> Too bad women werent given a gene that makes infidelity committed against them painless in response.


You dont think if they think they are Gods gift to women that they have low esteem? I do. Needing to have women fawn over them and that validation to me seems like low worth. If they had high worth they would be happy with what they had. 
I dont think it is biology. My husband and I know over 20 married couples and only 1 of the men has cheated. 19 others did not. That cant be biology. I think respect and love or lack of it is what causes cheating.


----------



## that_girl

Biology or not, you still have a BRAIN and the choice to cheat.


----------



## Cee Paul

I can understand why some men or women cheat based on their situations but it's never been something I could or would do, but I have had the opportunities to do so but turned them down flat. And to me it's the ultimate knife in the back and show of disrespect you could do to someone, and if things are that bad and to the point you wanna do that then it's time to get the hell out. But for many it's a thrill ride and it's the excitement of sneaking around and not getting caught, but in the end no matter how long it takes you will ALWAYS get caught and you can take that to the bank 100%.


----------



## okeydokie

i wish a simple wording change would take place in this thread.

"why do cheating men cheat" 

there are alot of generalizations and catagorizing going on here. i have a wife that doesnt want sex and i havent cheated nor have i thought about it.


----------



## Toffer

Yes, men are shallow

If the wifw has removed sex from the equation of the marriage or severely curtailed it, we're more likely to go AWOL


----------



## Runs like Dog

Same as any other crime. Means, motive, opportunity.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

*Dean* said:


> I believe that both people are only thinking about themselves.
> It's all about them. Nothing more.
> 
> I can't speak for a woman but a man can cheat for many reasons.
> 
> He can be in a happy marriage or relationship and still cheat.
> The cause is never the woman. It's him.


I assume you mean never the OW??


----------



## Twofaces

Means=money
Opportunity=*****s everywhere
Motive=usually the penis


Sorry thats my rant for the day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Goldmember357

Men and women cheat for the same reasons THEY WANT TO and are SICK IN THE HEAD 

BY and large however id say more men cheat for slightly different reasons than women but in the end men and women cheat for similar reasons at the end of the day. Men cheat because they by nature programmed to be as promiscuous as can be however far to many men are incapable of being in a monogamous relationship or truly giving themselves to only 1 woman. Its not so much that men are "biologically programmed to cheat" its more so the fact that men are Biologically programmed to seek as much sex as possible and to impregnate as many attractive and preferably young females as they can. That is why more men participate in such activities in addition male cheating/infidelity is not a "bad thing" in many many parts of the world and in many many countries and cultures and throughout human history males cheating is normal accepted and rarely if ever punished or cared about in addition its often been viewed as "normal" and just "man's business". 

There is far to much to explain but just know this. When men cheat its for selfish reasons just like when women cheat. Nothing causes a man to cheat other than his own personal flaws and him being programmed to seek so much sex is not an excuse to cheat. We still have control over our actions and can bypass what evolution has installed into us.


----------



## AFEH

Dina said:


> The posts on here by many men (even though I guess I appreciate the honesty and it wasn't really a secret beforehand) make it extremely hard for me (and I know other women who have said this ) to
> 
> a) love a man
> b) trust them
> 
> So why do we do it? Why get into a relationship with a guy and trust that he is faithful? And how unlovable does it make you guys that you constantly struggle with being committed to us?


You’re either basically an optimist or basically a pessimist. Optimists will always see the bright side, pessimists the dark. Even optimists who’ve been cheated on will be optimistic about their next relationship! Whereas pessimists wont.

Not much to be done about it. Pessimists will always default to pessimism and see the dark side in most things, whereas optimists will search out the light and because they seek it, generally they’ll find it.


There must be millions of men just like me who are tempted by but turn down women who knock on their hotel door at one in the morning and are committed “Till death us do part” to their wives.

Just because a husband is tempted by other women it doesn’t mean that in any way he isn’t totally committed to his wife.


And if a woman is NEVER tempted by a man other than her husband, if she never gets that hot flush, feeling in her stomach, never feels the hots for another guy then surely something is not quite right about her.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

OK I am going to turn this thread on it's ear a little. I will likely get lambasted but that is OK, I think it is worth a frank discussion.

You are all correct, cheating is a CHOICE and a bad one. I used to be like many of you claim. I always thought men were dirtbags and never understood how they could cheat on their wives. I have turned down offers without batting an eye in the past. I am now at a point where I don't know if I could.

I love my wife and I want her to be the one to do it for me. However, for the last 8 years or so her desire has diminished to pretty much zero and almost to the point of being anti-sex.

I have talked until I am blue in the face, tried to make changes, asked if I am not meeting some of her needs, suggested counseling, hormone testing, you name it. I have even mentioned leaving so I don't hurt her if I did "slip up". It is crushing me to the point where it is affecting other aspects of our lives and I cannot get her to "see" it.

I know the "easy" answer is going to be to divorce her. I love her and my family life. She is good to me in nearly every other aspect and is a great mother to my children. But feeling desired by her is a major need for me that she cannot or will not meet.

My honor and integrity have always been of utmost importance to me so here I sit day after day fighting with myself... If I divorce her I feel like I have failed myself, her, and our children. If I slipped up and cheated on her I will have destroyed my honor and likely won't be able to live with myself either...

Call me a scumbag, call me a "typical male", or whatever you want but I am at a total loss any more...


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Dean,

Where?


----------



## Browncoat

*Dean* said:


> In the last 24 hrs or so MEM was replying to DTO I believe on a thread. Go read it.
> 
> I think it is an excellent way to put the ball in your wife's court. Read and see what you think.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The ball is in her court, but keep serving her lobs (yay a metaphor used in conjunction with another metaphor).

Do you're self a favor though and don't give yourself opportunity to cheat. While it may be great for a few minutes, the fallout will give you headache/heartache for years and years to come from your wife and family.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Uhm, what???


----------



## AFEH

frustr8dhubby said:


> OK I am going to turn this thread on it's ear a little. I will likely get lambasted but that is OK, I think it is worth a frank discussion.
> 
> You are all correct, cheating is a CHOICE and a bad one. I used to be like many of you claim. I always thought men were dirtbags and never understood how they could cheat on their wives. I have turned down offers without batting an eye in the past. I am now at a point where I don't know if I could.
> 
> I love my wife and I want her to be the one to do it for me. However, for the last 8 years or so her desire has diminished to pretty much zero and almost to the point of being anti-sex.
> 
> I have talked until I am blue in the face, tried to make changes, asked if I am not meeting some of her needs, suggested counseling, hormone testing, you name it. I have even mentioned leaving so I don't hurt her if I did "slip up". It is crushing me to the point where it is affecting other aspects of our lives and I cannot get her to "see" it.
> 
> I know the "easy" answer is going to be to divorce her. I love her and my family life. She is good to me in nearly every other aspect and is a great mother to my children. But feeling desired by her is a major need for me that she cannot or will not meet.
> 
> My honor and integrity have always been of utmost importance to me so here I sit day after day fighting with myself... If I divorce her I feel like I have failed myself, her, and our children. If I slipped up and cheated on her I will have destroyed my honor and likely won't be able to live with myself either...
> 
> Call me a scumbag, call me a "typical male", or whatever you want but I am at a total loss any more...


Is your wife conflict avoidant? If she is she may well be full of resentment she’s built up over the years through unresolved anger. If she still has anger in her for events from years, maybe decades ago then she’ll be what’s called pathologically embittered. It’s what happens as a result of avoiding confrontation and letting things build up. So if your wife is a passive woman and conflict avoidant she may well be harbouring anger against you and in some ways may not actually like you let alone love you.

Are you a good to excellent provider? If you are your wife will not want to leave you because of what you provide for her and her children. So she expresses her anger against you and her dislike of you by withholding sex and maybe other expressions of love that you’d normally expect from a “loving” wife.


If the above makes any sense then fitness test your wife. One way of doing this is to ask her to remarry you, to retake your vows. A loving wife who deeply loves her husband, respects him and appreciates what he provides will feel immensely happy because her H asked her to get married again. It’s very romantic.

On the other hand a wife who harbours strong anger and deep dislike of her husband will do everything she can from re marrying him.


Another way to fitness test your wife is to ask her to forgive you for everything you ever got wrong in the past. If she gives you a nice smile and a hug, you’ll know she’s forgiven you already. If she gets angry, accusatory, avoids etc. then you’ll know you’re dealing with a lot of resentment.

By fitness test I mean test your wife to see if she’s fit enough to be married to you. For example, why on earth would you want to stay married to a woman who would not marry you again today? And why on earth would you want to stay married to a woman who is angry at you and dislikes you for things you did in the past, yet still takes all that you provide for her?


----------



## frustr8dhubby

AFEH said:


> Is your wife conflict avoidant? If she is she may well be full of resentment she’s built up over the years through unresolved anger. If she still has anger in her for events from years, maybe decades ago then she’ll be what’s called pathologically embittered. It’s what happens as a result of avoiding confrontation and letting things build up. So if your wife is a passive woman and conflict avoidant she may well be harbouring anger against you and in some ways may not actually like you let alone love you.


Hardly. I am the conflict avoidant one for the most part in our relationship.



AFEH said:


> Are you a good to excellent provider? If you are your wife will not want to leave you because of what you provide for her and her children. So she expresses her anger against you and her dislike of you by withholding sex and maybe other expressions of love that you’d normally expect from a “loving” wife.
> 
> If the above makes any sense then fitness test your wife. One way of doing this is to ask her to remarry you, to retake your vows. A loving wife who deeply loves her husband, respects him and appreciates what he provides will feel immensely happy because her H asked her to get married again. It’s very romantic.
> 
> On the other hand a wife who harbours strong anger and deep dislike of her husband will do everything she can from re marrying him.


I believe that she absolutely would, that is the crux of it.




AFEH said:


> Another way to fitness test your wife is to ask her to forgive you for everything you ever got wrong in the past. If she gives you a nice smile and a hug, you’ll know she’s forgiven you already. If she gets angry, accusatory, avoids etc. then you’ll know you’re dealing with a lot of resentment.
> 
> By fitness test I mean test your wife to see if she’s fit enough to be married to you. For example, why on earth would you want to stay married to a woman who would not marry you again today? And why on earth would you want to stay married to a woman who is angry at you and dislikes you for things you did in the past, yet still takes all that you provide for her?


She would ask me WTF I was talking about. We have had these discussions. I have asked point blank if there is something I have done/am doing/am not doing. She claims that she is very content and everything is great...


----------



## AFEH

^Have you read Athol's book? I was with my wife for over 40 years, never once did she turn me down for sex in all that time.

Athol knows what he's on about.


Your resentment due to your conflict avoidance will affect your marriage. Write everything down that you are resentful about. Go through a process of forgiveness, burn the pages, forget all about it and start anew.


If you cannot do that then you have an exceedingly big problem that needs resolving.


If you are resentful for things over 6 months ago you will be embittered. It's called pathalogical embitterment, is very serious and needs help/coaching to overcome it as it will have become a way of life for you.


----------



## Conrad

frustr8dhubby said:


> She would ask me WTF I was talking about. We have had these discussions. I have asked point blank if there is something I have done/am doing/am not doing. She claims that she is very content and everything is great...


Your relationship is working great for her.

How do you feel about that?


----------



## frustr8dhubby

I am not conflict avoidant with her. The only thing I am resentful about is having a wife with zero desire for me. Starting over isn't going to change that.

She feels that she shows her love for me by all that she does for me and taking care of me and our girls. And she does. Logically I know she loves me and would do anything for me. However, I need physical intimacy and I cannot get her to understand the importance of it for me.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Conrad said:


> Your relationship is working great for her.
> 
> How do you feel about that?


That is the point I am at. I don't know how I feel about it anymore.

After seeing how some spouses are treated on this site I think I am damn lucky to have her. Should I throw it away because I have some low self-esteem need for her to desire me? Is it really worth the loss?


----------



## Conrad

frustr8dhubby said:


> That is the point I am at. I don't know how I feel about it anymore.
> 
> After seeing how some spouses are treated on this site I think I am damn lucky to have her. Should I throw it away because I have some low self-esteem need for her to desire me? Is it really worth the loss?


You interpret that as low self-esteem desire?

I would think the real low self-esteem is to make a lifetime of meeting a partner's needs when they don't concern themselves with yours.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

No, I generally have a low self-esteem which I think exacerbates the problem.


----------



## AFEH

frustr8dhubby said:


> I am not conflict avoidant with her. The only thing I am resentful about is having a wife with zero desire for me. Starting over isn't going to change that.
> 
> She feels that she shows her love for me by all that she does for me and taking care of me and our girls. And she does. Logically I know she loves me and would do anything for me. However, I need physical intimacy and I cannot get her to understand the importance of it for me.


It’s not a low self-esteem need by any means. In essence your wife is not loving you in a way that makes you feel loved. That of course in and of itself will make your self-esteem take a dive.

If she were to sit on your lap and start kissing you amongst other things then for sure you would actually FEEL loved by her.

At the moment the love she gives you is a bit “academic”. Sure she’s a good woman, sure she does loads of things for you, sure she tells you she loves you .... so in a non emotional, rational, academic way you accept that she loves you.

But you don’t actually feel loved.

Look up the five love languages. Both of you take the test, or you can do your wife’s as you know her so well. What you will discover is that you two have very different love languages. It’s bulk standard stuff, you’re in love yet you don’t feel loved!

If you both work on it you can both love each other in the way you need to be loved to actually feel loved. But this means MASSIVE changes in behaviour. And your wife, because of HER comfort and satisfaction levels in the marriage is simply NOT motivated to make any changes to herself!


----------



## Conrad

frustr8dhubby said:


> No, I generally have a low self-esteem which I think exacerbates the problem.


I've been guilty of digging hard to make things easy for my partner. All the while, I figured she appreciated it. When it was clear she didn't (by her actions and attitude), I doubled down on what wasn't working and tried harder.

Eventually, I asked myself, "How's this working for me?"

And, yes, I had people interrogating me the same way I'm doing to you.


----------



## Jeff/BC

frustr8dhubby said:


> The only thing I am resentful about is having a wife with zero desire for me.
> 
> she ... would do anything for me.


I'm genuinely curious. You do not see the logical contradiction in those two statements? 

In my experience, it is REALLY easy to say "I would do anything for my partner." But in actuality, the word _anything_ covers a lot of ground... an AWFUL lot of ground. Taking the poets literally is not an easy task.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

AFEH,

We have already done this. She is an acts of service and then quality time person. (I wasn't surprised by that).

I am a physical touch then quality time person. (Also not surprising).

Knowing that she is an acts of service language, I know that she shows her love for me by keeping the house clean, doing laundry, making me lunches every morning, etc. That is how she expresses it.

Unfortunately for my side I need the physical touch. She loves hugs/kisses/etc but she has grown some aversion to physical touch. (Even with our children).


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Jeff/BC said:


> I'm genuinely curious. You do not see the logical contradiction in those two statements?
> 
> In my experience, it is REALLY easy to say "I would do anything for my partner." But in actuality, the word _anything_ covers a lot of ground... an AWFUL lot of ground. Taking the poets literally is not an easy task.


Of course I do, I actually thought about erasing that line. However, I think it is true. If I said to her that I need to make love to her, wanted a BJ/HJ/whatever, she would do it. But that doesn't work for me. I am not about coercion. I need her to WANT to make love to me and I don't even know if that is possible.


----------



## Conrad

Frustr8ted,

I've been doing plenty of soul-searching the past year on this very thing. Here's a conclusion that can save all of you plenty of time thinking of this stuff

We have 2 brains. Logical center = left brain. Emotional center = right brain.

Intellectually, we can understand and reason through things.

But, to "grasp it"... or to "get it" REQUIRES our right brain to wrap itself around the concept. This often results in AHA.... as the reaction.

AFEH is correct. What your wife gives to you, your left brain is saying... "this is how she does it"

Yet, your right brain is literally - SCREAMING - at you.... this doesn't make me "feel" it.

Both are necessary for you to be happy.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

I have been on it for about 2 years now and believe me I get it. Unfortunately I am the left-brain type. Logic typically tries to take over.

However, with that being said, I am getting closer to the point where I think I can live without her. I don't want to, and hope I don't have to but it is getting there...


----------



## Conrad

frustr8dhubby said:


> I have been on it for about 2 years now and believe me I get it. Unfortunately I am the left-brain type. Logic typically tries to take over.
> 
> However, with that being said, I am getting closer to the point where I think I can live without her. I don't want to, and hope I don't have to but it is getting there...


Does she know the stakes?

Remember, she has a "right brain" to wrap around things as well.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

frustr8dhubby said:


> Call me a scumbag, call me a "typical male", or whatever you want but I am at a total loss any more...


I would never never call you a scumbag, your wife is the Destroyer here. I feel strongly had you married someone compatible.... someone who expressed their love in the ways you deeply crave daily....your self esteem would be flying high! I mean that. 

I am also a physical touching / time person and I know me very well....I couldn't be with someone who wasn't.....I wouldn't be able to handle it. I'd be too sensitive , If people want to think that is weak, needy, that's fine....judge me ....but I wouldn't stay. I'd be too F'n MAD all the time, start to feel worthless and crave it elsewhere. 

It just means THAT MUCH to some of us, you can't beat it out of us either..unless we become numb and need depression drugs to cope. Give me a gift, I could give a sh**, help me around the house... don't need it, means near nothing to me. Flirt with me & grab my ass, I light up like a Christmas tree, I'll love you forever. 

You and her are at a total disconnect. She likely feels THAT way about your needing physcial touch. How very very unfortunate. 

I like Mem's advice...(in Deans post a page back).... Tell her what YOU are going to do, and leave the ball in her court. It won't be pretty but it is something you haven't explored yet.


----------



## Jeff/BC

frustr8dhubby said:


> Of course I do, I actually thought about erasing that line. However, I think it is true. If I said to her that I need to make love to her, wanted a BJ/HJ/whatever, she would do it. But that doesn't work for me. I am not about coercion. I need her to WANT to make love to me and I don't even know if that is possible.


In a sense I can really sympathize with this. I used to think that. Upon further reflection though, I have decided a genuine offering of love is ALWAYS too valuable to cast aside. Carol is not "coerced" into "putting out" when I want sex and she does not. Rather, she is motivated to act definitively to love me when it becomes apparent I'm struggling. 

Also, for us, what is true is that because the motivation is both strong and genuine, the actual internal feelings change over time. Taking this out of the oh-so-loaded sex realm, Carol likes alternative food. I'm strongly a meat & potatoes sissy food eater  I am actively and with malice aforethought developing an acquired taste. Sure, "putting out" is what I do at first... I go to the chinese restaurant and I struggle to find something palatable. But I also struggle to change my tastes so that the entire experience is altogether pleasant for me.

It's a "fake it till you make it" sort of approach but it is not coerced and it's very genuine. Most importantly, the motivation is not "duty", it is love. Ultimately, the motivation is to mold myself to become as perfect for her as I can be. If that involves liking foreign foods... or most anything else for that matter... I'm good with that. I would feel that she devalued my gift of love if she rejected it summarily on the basis of "lacks authenticity".


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Conrad said:


> Does she know the stakes?
> 
> Remember, she has a "right brain" to wrap around things as well.


I hope so. I have been discussing it quite a lot lately.

What I do fear though (and you guys are going to nail my "nice guy" tendencies here) is that she doesn't believe me. From this pure perspective you are right. I have very little heart to intentionally hurt her just to force a reaction.

That is changing slowly but it is VERY difficult for me.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

SA,

You have nailed it on the head as always...


----------



## LovesHerMan

frustr8dhubby said:


> I hope so. I have been discussing it quite a lot lately.
> 
> What I do fear though (and you guys are going to nail my "nice guy" tendencies here) is that she doesn't believe me. From this pure perspective you are right. I have very little heart to intentionally hurt her just to force a reaction.
> 
> That is changing slowly but it is VERY difficult for me.


She doesn't believe you because you have never taken any action to back up your words. You have never withdrawn anything that she needs. She has never felt the coldness that you have felt from her actions.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

lovesherman said:


> She doesn't believe you because you have never taken any action to back up your words. You have never withdrawn anything that she needs. She has never felt the coldness that you have felt from her actions.


Actually I have been. Not to the degree I need to yet. I pretty much give her short pecks hello/goodbye if she initiates it. No big warm hugs. Don't even remotely touch her in bed anymore (i.e. no snuggling). I don't say ILY first anymore. She is noticing...

But again, this just isn't me...


----------



## LovesHerMan

frustr8dhubby said:


> Actually I have been. Not to the degree I need to yet. I pretty much give her short pecks hello/goodbye if she initiates it. No big warm hugs. Don't even remotely touch her in bed anymore (i.e. no snuggling). I don't say ILY first anymore. She is noticing...
> 
> But again, this just isn't me...


Good. Keep focusing on you and being cool to her. She will notice and want to find out what is going on. That will be your opportunity to discuss how she has made you feel by ignoring your needs.


----------



## Marielle

frustr8dhubby said:


> ...If I said to her that I need to make love to her, wanted a BJ/HJ/whatever, she would do it. But that doesn't work for me. I am not about coercion. *I need her to WANT to make love to me and I don't even know if that is possible.*


**Hi F8H, I see that 10 more replies went up while I was typing this so I might be off in my response, but I'll post anyway. 



I think I see your dilemma. This is a very frustrating problem. What I'm hearing from you is that though your wife is a fine woman on all fronts, her capacity for passion/romance/intimacy isn't compatible with yours. Since she is very content with your relationship and is willing to please you, there isn't anything to fix on her part. What you're saying is that you "WANT" her to make love to you and "feel" it, but maybe it isn't even "possible." From my experience, the sad reality is you can't change how someone is wired...they can only feel what they're capable of feeling. Her capacity and way of expressing passion/intimacy isn't something you can fix...unfortunately. I wish I had some answers for you, but sounds like you're already trying hard to make things work. I'm sorry you're both going through this...it must be painful and frustrating...

BTW, what was your love/sexual relationship like before you got married and had children?


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Marielle said:


> **Hi F8H, I see that 10 more replies went up while I was typing this so I might be off in my response, but I'll post anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> I think I see your dilemma. This is a very frustrating problem. What I'm hearing from you is that though your wife is a fine woman on all fronts, her capacity for passion/romance/intimacy isn't compatible with yours. Since she is very content with your relationship and is willing to please you, there isn't anything to fix on her part. What you're saying is that you "WANT" her to make love to you and "feel" it, but maybe it isn't even "possible." From my experience, the sad reality is you can't change how someone is wired...they can only feel what they're capable of feeling. Her capacity and way of expressing passion/intimacy isn't something you can fix...unfortunately. I wish I had some answers for you, but sounds like you're already trying hard to make things work. I'm sorry you're both going through this...it must be painful and frustrating...
> 
> BTW, what was your love/sexual relationship like before you got married and had children?


EXACTLY. It was good/great. I actually couldn't keep up with her at times. And that is the frustrating part. It isn't like she was always LD/ND and I just didn't see it. (Or she was "faking" it to get me?) Something changed along the way. Obviously raising the girls and such I expected some slow down for a time but it has never really come back.


----------



## AFEH

frustr8dhubby said:


> Actually I have been. Not to the degree I need to yet. I pretty much give her short pecks hello/goodbye if she initiates it. No big warm hugs. Don't even remotely touch her in bed anymore (i.e. no snuggling). I don't say ILY first anymore. She is noticing...
> 
> But again, this just isn't me...


Maybe one day you’ll wake up to the fact that “being you” isn’t working for you.

And your wife “being her” isn’t working for you either. Yet you are the one who expects her to change. How does it go? You can’t change anyone but yourself.

Take this initiating sex thing. It would make you feel loved if she did that, right? But what if initiating sex made your wife feel like a *****? Or a slapper? I’m pretty sure it makes a lot of women feel that way and that’s why they don’t initiate, or at least only overtly. They see themselves as Nice Girls and so they never initiate sex. At least not in the covert way you want your wife to.

Nice Guy plus Nice Girl = No sex! Is that the way of it.


So who’s going to change? You’ve spent what EIGHT YEARS trying to get your wife to change and yet you say I’LL NEVER STOP BEING A NICE GUY!!! Surely there’s a madness in there somewhere?

I actually believe that inside of the majority of women there’s a lustful, passionate person inside of their “outside cool” or “outside Nice Girl”. It’s for you as her husband to find that person such that she wants to express it with you. Do Nice Guys do that sort of thing? I for one don’t know.

How many pairs of handcuffs do you have? How many times have you tied your wife to the bed? How many times have you chased her and smacked her bum? How do you tease her and make her laugh? How many books on sex have you read?


----------



## Marielle

frustr8dhubby said:


> EXACTLY. It was good/great. I actually couldn't keep up with her at times. And that is the frustrating part. It isn't like she was always LD/ND and I just didn't see it. (Or she was "faking" it to get me?) Something changed along the way. Obviously raising the girls and such I expected some slow down for a time but it has never really come back.


No, I don't think she was "faking" it to get you. 

But I think there is a strong element of the "drive" being fueled by the thrill of the chase, newness and whatnot. From my observation, sometimes (maybe almost always, and same could be said of the men), the woman before marriage/kids doesn't much resemble the woman after marriage/kids. And there's no blame to be assigned - you could take two wonderful people in love and won't know how it will all come out until they're put on the path of married life. And who knows exactly what in the couples life shapes and defines them in later years...

In any case, her lack (or level) of capacity to meet the way you want to be loved is a real issue...it's a hunger that is difficult to ignore. That's for sure.

Maybe you guys could pursue new interests together? Channel your energies into something creative or physical...whatever that may be?

I haven't read all the posts, but might any of AFEH's suggestions turn her on?



AFEH said:


> ...How many pairs of handcuffs do you have? How many times have you tied your wife to the bed? How many times have you chased her and smacked her bum? How do you tease her and make her laugh? How many books on sex have you read?


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## frustr8dhubby

AFEH said:


> How many pairs of handcuffs do you have?


0 unfortunately



AFEH said:


> How many times have you tied your wife to the bed?


Same as above. 



AFEH said:


> How many times have you chased her and smacked her bum?


That one is tough to count.



AFEH said:


> How do you tease her and make her laugh?


Typically with some type of suggestive remarks and/or sarcasm..



AFEH said:


> How many books on sex have you read?


In what regard?


Marielle,

Unfortunately no, I don't think any of them would. She says that NOTHING turns her on anymore...


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## Marielle

frustr8dhubby said:


> Marielle,
> 
> Unfortunately no, I don't think any of them would. She says that NOTHING turns her on anymore...


Yikes. I don't know if she means that literally, but this is looking kind of bad. As a romantic who believes in love conquers all, I'd like to think that there's a way out of this "impasse" for all concerned - in particular, your kids. But frankly, there may not be a solution if you simply cannot connect emotionally on an intimate level.

Marriages can be [email protected] tough to maintain...You both have my sympathy.


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## AFEH

frustr8dhubby said:


> 0 unfortunately
> 
> 
> Same as above.
> 
> 
> That one is tough to count.
> 
> 
> Typically with some type of suggestive remarks and/or sarcasm..
> 
> 
> In what regard?
> 
> 
> Marielle,
> 
> Unfortunately no, I don't think any of them would. She says that NOTHING turns her on anymore...


I don’t mean to be “cruel” here. That is not my intent. But may be the “thought” of sex with you just doesn’t inspire your wife, doesn’t get her juices flowing. Doesn’t get her horny.


I’m a great lover of sex, of making love. And because of that I learnt all about a woman’s body and watched to see where my wife’s erogenous zones are. Her shoulders are extremely sensitive and just a bit of caressing would make her go weak at the knees and get her in the mood.

You’d be really surprised at what turns some women on. But those women who aren’t very experienced simply don’t know what may turn them on so it’s being creative and experimental. For example my wife is typically quite reserved, yet one day when I mentioned making a video she got almost immediately horny just when I was setting the camera up!


But eight years of it, you’ve been at this for eight years. How on earth you now reach the parts you need to reach is way beyond me. But I think your single biggest obstacle is your powerful need to remain the “Nice Guy” even in the face of a very frigid wife.

I wonder what Nice Guy means to you? Does it mean you don’t take her for walks in the woods and up against trees, for rolls in the hay. Does it really mean missionary style … and that’s it?

Sorry and I do apologise if I’ve been over the top and got it all very wrong.


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## frustr8dhubby

AFEH,

That is distinctly possible though she claims it isn't true and when we do get together she tends to O.

I don't know how to get at what does it for her. I've asked about toys, I tried to pull the truck over one night and see if she was up for it. She laughed it off. She doesn't read much so that is out (even though she used to like erotic stories).

I can hardly even get her to talk about sex just to probe her mind.

As an example. A few weeks ago we went out for Mexican and margaritas for lunch. We both seemed to loosen up a little so on the ride home I started asking her about 3somes just for kicks. I asked her of anyone we know or any celebrity (male or female) who would you want. I get nothing...

If she truly does like sex just not with me, she is a master of not letting her guard down..


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## AFEH

I'm thinking your wife has absolutley no fear of losing you.

That you are so Consciencious and Steady that no matter what you "say" you will always be there for her, no matter what she does or what she doesn't do. Maybe you're like a massive rock in the garden that cannot be moved because it is too big and too heavy. It will always be there, even if she kicks it as she walks past.



I think you have to do something really outlandish. Something that is so very NOT you.


Maybe book a week off work. Then on Sat morning just say goodbye and take yourself off somewhere. Tell her you need time to yourself, that you WONT be calling and that you'll be ok.


And then just go.


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