# here goes



## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

Not sure why Im posting this, i guess i really dont have another avenue to discuss it....
background
Im 39, she is 33. been together 15 years married 8. Both attractive with good builds. she doesnt work and hasnt since she was pregnant with our 11 yr old son. Sex hasnt been good since before we even got married. She never desires it or iniates it. She has a lot of wonderful traits but i feel like our relationship is very unfair and i am beginning to resent her. Our frequency is down to once a month. She no longer desires any form of forplay. She doesnt even like me to do Oral on her and forget about it for me. I recently finished building our house ans our life should be great. But i cant help but to want to have great sex with a woman again before i die. We both have been faithful throughout marriage. What am i to do?
.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Have you spoken to your W about your needs? Does your W understand that sex is not the only thing in marriage(that she avoiding) but an important part of marriage?


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## Kerf (Apr 22, 2017)

Do you romance her?Do you spend enough time just the two of you and talk about stuff?Hobbies, etc?


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

we have driven this topic into the ground and unfourtanetly it hasnt done any good. its been discussed and worked on until i dont care to speak with her about it any longer. it has affected me sexually because i can tell that she only consents to it because its her duty and to me that is zero fun. if my needs didnt take over at times we would never have sex again.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

i would view our problems to be worse than most couples.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Yeah, the first questions will be just what have you talked with your wife about.

What does she say when you tell her you are dissatisfied? When you ask her why she doesn't want you to perform oral sex on her, what is her response?

Does she have good orgasms?

I read somewhere once, but am unable to find the reference, that the best indicator that a woman will want sex again is whether or not she had an orgasm the last time she had sex. That was some actual study. Wish I could find it again.

Maybe I just imagined it, who knows. It sounds good.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

So you probably would say she has not had an orgasm?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> we have driven this topic into the ground and unfourtanetly it hasnt done any good. its been discussed and worked on until i dont care to speak with her about it any longer. it has affected me sexually because i can tell that she only consents to it because its her duty and to me that is zero fun. if my needs didnt take over at times we would never have sex again.


In a nutshell...if you have talked about this issue until you are blue in the face and still no change then it may be time to simply accept it or throw in the towel. Being rejected constantly is wrong. To save this marriage and hopefully illicit a response other than duty sex, start talking of separation. Willing to lose the marriage can sometimes save it.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You have a very common problem. Except in extraordinary situations, there is no solution other than to accept it or divorce her. You've talked about it, to no avail. I can assure you that counseling, medical tests, romantic gestures, distancing yourself, or threats will make no difference at all. She's simply not interested in sex, or not with you, and unless a massive change in her attitude occurs for her own reasons, you will never see any improvement.

If you're not going to leave, you may as well keep trying everything else - it will be something to do to kill the time you might otherwise use to have sex.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> I read somewhere once, but am unable to find the reference, that the best indicator that a woman will want sex again is whether or not she had an orgasm the last time she had sex. That was some actual study. Wish I could find it again.


I would love to see that study. Orgasms are great and all but I don't think women put as much stock into it as men. Sufficient foreplay to get me wet enough and give me a good pounding, that's what keeps me coming back, the pounding...


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

it use to be easy to get her to climax but with her current attitude towards sex, i would say that she achieves orgasm less than half the time. She no longer wants to discuss it. Her solution is to accept she has no desire to have sex. When i want it, just let her know. i have been on the verge of leaving a couple times in last couple years but im also an everyday father and it pains me to think of not seeing my son everyday.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

if my wife talked to me like that just one time in her life she would get amazing sex.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

if


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> it use to be easy to get her to climax but with her current attitude towards sex, i would say that she achieves orgasm less than half the time. She no longer wants to discuss it. Her solution is to accept she has no desire to have sex. When i want it, just let her know. i have been on the verge of leaving a couple times in last couple years but im also an everyday father and it pains me to think of not seeing my son everyday.


Understand children sense unhappiness in the home. Don't teach your child that a sexless marriage is normal because "that what my parents did." Dad is supposed to be miserable. 

Accept it or separate. Only you can make you happy.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

If I may ask, what is the reason your W does not want sex? Just is not driven at any level to have sex?

Is it you as the reason but keeps you hanging on with duty sex thus keeping the security of your paycheck?


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

OP, if you just ran a search on here you would see that we get countless stories just like yours all the time. We have a an active similar story right now with a female poster complaining that her husband has only had sex with her 3 times in 1.5years: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/377305-husband-seems-not-want-need-sex.html

In all cases, if the person with low desire has zero interest in figuring out how to improve things for their partner, then you really don't have much of a choice but to deal with it or leave. You have to find a way to get through to her and get her on board. Perhaps through counselling or sharing relevant literature on the subject. Perhaps you can send her here as there are some LD (low desire) posters who frequent the site.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

church is most important to her. not really sure why shes not into sex. never has been good at it.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

It was something I read about 4 years ago, when I was approaching that birthday where I was supposed to turn myself in to be recycled into Soylent Green. It was about sex and aging, and the best predictors for whether or not a post menopausal woman continued to want sex. It was a questionnaire type of study done of hundreds of older women. 

At least, that's what I believe was the thread of thought I was following at the time I had found it.

But I've done so much reading in so many different places. What amazes me is how many different studies have been done, and how few ways there really are to find them. 

I didn't bother keeping track of where I had come across it since my wife is so sexual that study had nothing of value to us.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

My wife has two half brothers. Both about the same age, interestingly.

One is Pentecostal and one is Mormon.

I stole my wife from her family, where she was raised Pentecostal. After our three kids were born she had a tubal ligation. Some relative of hers gave her grief about it, and said it was good I did not have a vasectomy so I could continue having kids with a new woman. Religious nonsense. So I paid for my own vasectomy immediately. It made Mary happy.

Mary told her two brothers they should get vasectomies and stop popping babies. Both of them, independently, because they never associated with each other, said they would never do that because if they were sterile they could never have sex again.

In both of those religions there is only one reason to have sex, ever. And that is to get pregnant. Her brothers believe that, and their wives believe that.

That's the cult garbage I stole my wife from.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

whats average sex rate for happily married couples? she thinks we are normal.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

she has me thinking if i leave, the next will be similar.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

WilliamM said:


> In both of those religions there is only one reason to have sex, ever. And that is to get pregnant. Her brothers believe that, and their wives believe that.
> 
> That's the cult garbage I stole my wife from.


Well, there's always that one fatal flaw in that theory: the clitoris.

It's only function is pleasure and it is completely incidental to procreation. You cant even make the argument that the pleasure exists to encourage procreation since that little item isn't in the vagina and PIV is one of the least effective paths to the height of pleasure, and not even possible at all for many. Sure, the male orgasm is the most direct path to procreation, but on the female side? Not so much. Whenever I hear this POV, I simply ask for a an explanation why God created the clitoris. I generally get nothing but a blank stare. When I do get an answer, it's even more ridiculous than the original misguided notion; something like it's there to provide greater temptation so God can separate the truly righteous from the easily strayed :scratchhead:


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Average sex rate for a happily married couple is the number that keeps both of the members of the couple happy.

That is a number that has been tossed around many, many, many times.

There are a lot of threads about it.

I can tell you that my wife and I had sex pretty much every day from when I was 19 years old until I turned 60. Now it's slowed down just a little. But we are not average. Some studies I guess put average at around 3 times per week, I guess, maybe, I suppose, probably. Or close to that, sort of.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> whats average sex rate for happily married couples? she thinks we are normal.


My W and I usually no less than 3-4 times a week. Duty sex once a month is not normal.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Clash77 said:


> whats average sex rate for happily married couples? she thinks we are normal.


The "average" is irrelevant for two reasons. First,t here is great variance around the average, and second, "average" is no measure of adequacy. Some couples on the low side of average are very happy, and some on the high side of average may still be dissatisfied. The real answer, while not necessarily helpful, is "it depends ... " (on a whole lot of variables)

That said, once a month is pretty darn low, by just about anyone's standards.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Well, there's always that one fatal flaw in that theory: the clitoris.
> 
> It's only function is pleasure and it is completely incidental to procreation. You cant even make the argument that the pleasure exists to encourage procreation since that little item isn't in the vagina and PIV is one of the least effective paths to the height of pleasure, and not even possible at all for many. Sure, the male orgasm is the most direct path to procreation, but on the female side? Not so much. Whenever I hear this POV, I simply ask for a an explanation why God created the clitoris. I generally get nothing but a blank stare. When I do get an answer, it's even more ridiculous than the original misguided notion; something like it's there to provide greater temptation so God can separate the truly righteous from the easily strayed :scratchhead:


To give them a temptation to avoid, so they can prove how godly they are because women need to be tempted and able to prove how much better they are.

I kid you not.

Luckily my wife escaped.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Clash77 said:


> whats average sex rate for happily married couples? she thinks we are normal.


Statistics are kind of meaningless. It really depends on who you marry. I think the overall average is a couple of times a week - a little more when younger, a little less for older couples. My ex (whom I divorced because our marriage was sexless and without affection) had no interest in sex, so less than 10x a year except when she wanted to get pregnant - and then stopped right after. My current wife and I have sex about daily, although we're slowing down after 17 years together and getting near retirement. In our early years, 700x a year was typical, in the middle years of our relationship, it was still 500x a year. Now it's more like 300-400x a year. I simply made a better choice with this relationship - and she's a better match in every other area, too.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> she has me thinking if i leave, the next will be similar.


Please clarify. The next woman you may meet will be the same as your W is with sex? Is this what your W meant by that statement?


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

i had a relationshipwith great sex before i married and hearing yoi guys talk about yours just sucks for me......lol


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

What religion are you?

If you leave your wife, do you intend to date only within your religion afterwards?

The answers to those questions could speak to the idea of whether or not the next woman you meet will have the same ideas as your wife has about sex.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

the next relationship


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## LadybugMomma (Apr 28, 2016)

Maybe she's feeling inadequate? If she's never been good at sex, even before you were married/ever, she might feel she's there just for your pleasure? Is she by any chance embarrassed to talk to you about it?


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

im not into church like her.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

thats not it ladybug.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> the next relationship


Your W has you believing that? Your W saying that means two things to me:

1. Telling fibs to keep you on the hook for stability and paycheck.
2. She does not find you sexually attractive.

Why the hell would anyone say that to a spouse? Truthfully dude, I would D.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Clash - you are reading my mail.

The only difference is that our lives are very busy - we have many children, business, and have recently made several moves. Don't buy the religion excuse unless it is specifically cited. I have attended several Protestant churches and most encourage sex after marriage. Healthy churches want healthy couples and happy families. Sex is important and they know this. A nearby church regularly sets up free daycare so spouses can go on dates and connect. If it is religion, then the faith is toxic or your wife is using it as an excuse.

So what to do? You can do nothing and move on. Resign yourself to the fact that an active sex life is not in your future. But then you must safeguard resentment and anger. If you move on, you must move on and let it go. Most advice against this for good reason. 

Or you can do something. Marriage counseling, books, lots of communication, or possibly divorce/separation as a worse case scenario. Think of it as a huge project that needs to be addressed. At some point, the sex life needs to increase, you accept the limited sex within marriage, or separate. If you give it your all for the next, say 3 years, to no avail, what then?

For the record, I estimate sex to be 2-3 times per week as a good average. 

Best of luck.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

She would say that because she believes it is true?

Sure, why not. Her religion may be telling her over and over sex is for procreation and nothing else.

What religion is she?

Pentecostal, Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist, Islam?

Some, such as those for instance, are especially anti-sex. Baptist has a very strong anti-sex message as well. The eastern religions too.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> im not into church like her.


Clash,

My church promotes sex in marriage. In fact, we had one sermon(kids removed) that focused on just that. Sex in marriage. It is an important part of marriage. The Songs of Solomon.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

WilliamM said:


> Sure, why not. Her religion may be telling her over and over sex is for procreation and nothing else.


That is Catholic if I'm not mistaken. Is the OP W Catholic?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

The Catholic church is very mild in regards to their attitude towards sex within marriage compared to Pentecosts. My wife was raised Pentecostal, and I sat in on a sermon or two. They do preach sex for procreation only. No exceptions.

My brother in law told me the Mormon church has the same policy, but I never heard a preacher say it.

Catholics are all party animals by comparison. They even are willing to talk about the rhythm method of birth control. That is only useful for sex which is not intended for procreation.

Pentecosts think that is blasphemy.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Clash77 said:


> i had a relationshipwith great sex before i married and hearing yoi guys talk about yours just sucks for me......lol


Only you know if you have tried your best to be a good supportive husband. If you have, and your wife has no interest to see what can be done to increase her libido and working with you to meet your sexual needs, then there seems to be no hope.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

WilliamM said:


> The Catholic church is very mild in regards to their attitude towards sex within marriage compared to Pentecosts. My wife was raised Pentecostal, and I sat in on a sermon or two. They do preach sex for procreation only. No exceptions.
> 
> My brother in law told me the Mormon church has the same policy, but I never heard a preacher say it.
> 
> Catholics are all party animals by comparison.



It is my understanding Clash was getting his ashes hauled numerous times a week. Then the flood gates of good times in the bedroom were shut off. This does not appear to be a issue based a faith.


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## LadybugMomma (Apr 28, 2016)

Clash77 said:


> thats not it ladybug.


What do you feel it is? 

I know from my previous marriage and my current one...that sex is SO much more than the "feel good" aspect. If there's tension in the marriage and things are just plain crappy, sex, is the last thing on my mind. For women it's more than hopping in the bed and getting it done. I've gone ahead and took on the advances of my husband at a time when things were stressed and I couldn't achieve orgasm. If I'm not fully into it, it is as good as going through the motions.He feels it, he senses it and it makes for a lousy time. 

You say your marriage isn't very good right now. I'm sure a lot of no sex related, but is there anything you can do to improve your marriage that might also make your wife feel better about things? 

IDK, I may be way off base with this situation. Just looking at it from a different view.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

So go on about your life not worrying about her or your sex life for now. Take care of yourself and your kid......and when the need arises there's always porn and your right hand, lol. Let her see that you are happy in your life and that the lack of sex isn't bothering you for a while and see what happens.

My wife was the same way for a long time. She never initiated anything, when it happened she just laid there and it was a very rare occasion that she had an orgasm. She also fell into a trend of only wanting sex when she was drunk, and even then it was dull and boring. I told her straight out that I wasn't going to do it when she was drunk anymore and I didn't. I stopped initiating things and stopped making any kind of sexual comments to flirt with her. I still complimented her on how she looked and everything like that, but I also started taking better care of myself. I started working out, grooming more, dressing better, wearing cologne everyday instead of just when we went out, and I just started doing more on my own and for myself. It was a long couple months and emotionally straining on myself but I never let her see I was upset about anything.

Then out of no where about a week ago I had passed a comment about how she looked and later that night she initiated. It wasn't earthshattering and she still pretty much just laid there, but she had an orgasm within about 3 minutes. Since then she's been the one initiating and passing comments and sex has gotten better.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

problem Finwe is ive already given it my all for way more than 3 years. it is very hard to check my anger at times. honestly its to the point where i could go the rest of my life without sleeping with her and i view that as a positive thing. On the other hand, I love her and trust her. She has been a terrific mother. She does retreat from all responsibility leaving me to handle all lifes daily problems and tasks on my own. I did just build us a house that took me 3 years and i dont owe a dime on it. i did everything myself and i am very proud of it. it would be hard to walk away from......guess i could buy a camper.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

The relationship he mentioned wherein he had reasonable sex was a prior relationship, not his wife.

He did not specifically say he has ever had good sex with his wife, I think. Just that it hasn't been good since before the baby was born, so more than 11 years.

His wife could have gotten religion.

You quoted my post before I edited it! Hey, get my post right. I added the part about Catholics teaching about the rhythm method of birth control. My wife pointed that out to me, because that was a revelation to her when I met her, because the Pentecosts only use knowledge of a woman's period to figure out the right time to have sex to optimize the opportunity to get pregnant and forbid sex at any time when a woman cannot get pregnant.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Hi @Clash77, sorry to hear about your trouble, which is a common story here. Your situation is important but you might want to read some of the other threads here with similar topics for comparison.

Is your avatar a picture of you and your son? We don't often have people post their real picture here, so you might want to be sure that you're OK with your faces being public. This is a public forum and Google will index and cache any posts that are not in the private members forum. I think you have to have 30 posts to be able to access that forum. Just thought I'd mention for your own privacy.

As for your issue, my personal feeling is that religion adds a whole other dimension of complexity. I am not religious myself (former Catholic) and I do respect other religions, but only up to a point where faith does not start to dictate how we conduct our lives in the bedroom. Perhaps some more religious members can offer better advice, but my first suggestion would be to get her to a sex therapist so she can learn to embrace and accept her sexuality.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> Sex hasnt been good since before we even got married.


Sex has not been good compared to what? What you see in porn? What your friends brag about? Solo masturbation?

Generally speaking each person can be responsible for their own sexual enjoyment and great sex is about "sharing" that enjoyment with a partner. In the words of another woman here on TAM, she might say to her partner that she is about to go and enjoy a great orgasm with or without her spouse as she invites him to join.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> problem Finwe is ive already given it my all for way more than 3 years. it is very hard to check my anger at times. honestly its to the point where i could go the rest of my life without sleeping with her and i view that as a positive thing. On the other hand, I love her and trust her. She has been a terrific mother. She does retreat from all responsibility leaving me to handle all lifes daily problems and tasks on my own. I did just build us a house that took me 3 years and i dont owe a dime on it. i did everything myself and i am very proud of it. it would be hard to walk away from......guess i could buy a camper.


Like we have said accept or move on.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

bad santa compared to past sexual eperiences......


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> bad santa compared to past sexual eperiences......


If all your past sexual experiences were in the context of short term relationships and you found that more enjoyable perhaps this may explain.

You may feel ashamed of your sexuality and undeserving of enjoy it with someone you care about. In the context of a short term sexual relationship it is easier to enjoy sex in the event you do not care much about the person you are having sex with, because this allowed you to be selfish and just enjoy yourself. 

The other side of that is that you may feel ashamed of your sexuality and undeserving to enjoy it UNLESS your partner is willing to be selfish and aggressive about enjoying themselves in a way that uses you sexually. 

Some people want to use you some people want to be used. 

Perhaps you wife is in neither of those categories and just wants to feel emotionally close to you as opposed to being propositioned for the two of you using one another for various sexual acts of selfishness. If this is the case, I challenge you to have sex with your wife solely for the purpose of feeling emotionally close and avoid having an orgasm at all costs. You'll perhaps experience what sex is really all about with your wife for the first time... Really good sex is generally not performance and/or goal based sex for the purpose of an orgasm.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> i had a relationshipwith great sex before i married and hearing yoi guys talk about yours just sucks for me......lol


With whom did you have the 'great sex', your wife or a different woman? If your wife, what were you doing back then that made the sex great? If with a different woman, why didn't you marry her instead of your wife?


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

let me clarify a little better. me and the wife have had great sex in the past. but her LD has steadily gotten worse over time. Now because i feel like she is only giving me sex bc she feels obligated, i have started pursuing it less and farther down we go. She has basically said that she isnt concerned with having pleasurable sex only satisfying my needs. This in turn has killed my desire to have sex bc for me sex without passion just feels wrong. She says she doesnt mind it but to me its not right. I am still athletic build and have a strong drive so it over rides my will to not ask her for sex. She rarely kisses me or hugs me and as ive said never iniates sex, no matter how long i go without. i have threatened to leave in the past but she swears that we dont have issues and tbat she loves me and is attracted to me. I married her because she is a beautiful, trustworthy woman and we have a son together. however nothing about our relationship is fair and at times the sex thing sends me into mind**** city. im also not getting any younger......lol


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

My experience is very different than yours.

But I have one major advantage. My wife listens to me, and takes me seriously, after a fashion.

My wife did have a lot of problems before and after I married her. Soon after I met her I told her she had to provide me with good sex or I would be gone. And I said never hurt the children when we had those. She believed me.

So as her problems came up, she did not try to say there was no problem. We were able to continue addressing them, and slowly working our way through all the problems.

One thing of note, Mary, my wife, almost never initiates sex. She is very submissive. Submissive women, I am told, do not initiate. She is responsive. I could have my way with her any time I wanted. That worked for me.

Is it actually important to you that your wife initiate? Or could you be okay with her being only responsive? Could you two try something that would satisfy you both and not require she show any initiative?

Mary gets very excited as soon as I buckle her leather wrist cuffs onto her wrists, for instance. I can't tie her hands above her head any more because of her arthritis, but just having the cuffs on her really turns her on.

Have you considered trying something like that on your wife a few nights in a row?


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Clash77, 

Were you your Ws first choice or in a sense does she feel she has settled by marrying you and not someone else.

Did your W cheat on you and I would ask you to consider if she was ever in an emotional affair which can be more difficult to detect than a physical affair as it can occur over the internet. People think it's nothing it's only talk.

An affair of any kind will most often kill whatever romantic love your W had for you and this can go on for decades, as I know too well. You may have forgiven your W for something that happened along time ago but she may never have recovered.

Is she in love with someone at church, please don't scoff at this idea, church is a place where people are trusting of the intent of their "brothers and sisters" and there is hugging and emotional intimacy. When I recovered my marriage my W was going to a church without me and it was a disaster to my marriage. 

Please read the book "fall in love stay in love" by Dr Willard Harley. 

Tamat


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

my wife doeant like any toys or novelties.....and i havent thought anything aroused her for a long time now.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> let me clarify a little better. me and the wife have had great sex in the past. but her LD has steadily gotten worse over time. Now because *i feel* like she is only giving me sex bc she feels obligated, i have started pursuing it less and farther down we go. *She has basically said that she* isnt concerned with having pleasurable sex only *satisfying my needs*. This in turn has killed my desire to have sex bc *for me sex without passion just feels wrong*. She says she doesnt mind it but *to me its not right.*
> 
> I am still athletic build and have a strong drive so it over rides my will to not ask her for sex. She rarely kisses me or hugs me and as ive said never iniates sex, no matter how long i go without. i have threatened to leave in the past but *she swears that we dont have issues and tbat she loves me and is attracted to me*. I married her because she is a beautiful, trustworthy woman and we have a son together. however nothing about our relationship is fair and at times the sex thing sends me into mind**** city. im also not getting any younger......lol



You want your wife to _desire_ sex with you not just do it to meet a need. You get validation from sex (trust me, I get it - more than you'll know) but here's the thing you need to understand, your wife doesn't share that need for validation. What she does do is love you enough to meet your sexual needs. To use an analogy, you love chocolate cake, your wife - not so much, but she's willing to bake it for you and keep you company while you eat it. 

You need to stop looking at it as her doing it out of a sense of obligation and start looking at it as her loving you so much that she is selflessly meeting your needs. Believe her when she says that she loves you and is attracted to you. Initiate when you feel like connecting intimately.

I'm not suggesting that you have to put up with something that makes you completely uncomfortable but if you wish to stay married to your wife, I recommend you read Passionate Marriage by Schnarch. It will help you to get rid of those unwanted feelings that it's wrong to accept your wife's desire to meet your needs unless she's passionate about it.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

tamat we have both been faithful since marriage. i was her first choice. we been together since she was in high school. she pursued me heavily and at first i wasnt too serious about her. i was the alpha male in a rough group and she was very attracted to me. i dont think she wants another man. i think she wants a sexless marriage.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Toys and novelties are very different than bondage.

Toys and novelties require a woman vest some personal energy in the experience. She has to be showing this is her choice, and her action.

When you tie her up, you relieve her of all choice. It is not a novelty. Once choice is taken away from her, she can relax and enjoy the experience. When I first approached my wife with the idea I thought it might just be a novelty, but it worked so well I have spent time investigating why it works so well.

She has had a lot of therapy over the years, and I have had her ask her shrinks about it too. They all agree it is because it removes responsibility from her. The responsibility becomes mine, and mine alone, for the fact she is having sex. She can relax and fully enjoy it.

One of the counselors I picked for her was specifically a Christian, and female, specifically for counseling Christian women. I thought for sure she would tell Mary to be a little more independent. That counselor was the worst of the bunch! She said Mary was a great wife for being so submissive and obliging. She thought the wrist cuffs were a good idea.

It is not a novelty. It is a psychological tool. The question is, can you take it?

Edit: Mary wants me to stress she never gets hurt. This is nothing to do with pain in any way. I do not do anything that hurts her or hurts her feelings or might hurt her feelings, ever. And she is always up for it!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Clash77 said:


> i would view our problems to be worse than most couples.


You must be new here 😀


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

thx lila, that makes a little sense bc thats kind of what i hearfrom her. But that doesnt seem right. It has also begun to affect my performance because and my ability because i start having all kind of doubts on whether she actually wants sex. i guess this has stepped up a notch bc we recently went 5 weeks without sex and when i brough up the topic she became annoyed, got undressed, told me to stop *****ing, she basically doesnt want oral anymore(i thought that was her fav part) and climbed on was like, go ahead and get it over with. and how this is all a me problem and i should just accept it. well that doesnt make me aroused and has further damaged my ability to become aroused by her. i have told her that i wont be having duty sex any longer and that id opt for the sexless. but i doubt i can hold that so im not sure where that leaves me.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> thx lila, that makes a little sense bc thats kind of what i hearfrom her. But that doesnt seem right. It has also begun to affect my performance because and my ability because i start having all kind of doubts on whether she actually wants sex. i guess this has stepped up a notch bc we recently went 5 weeks without sex and when i brough up the topic she became annoyed, got undressed, told me to stop *****ing, she basically doesnt want oral anymore(i thought that was her fav part) and climbed on was like, go ahead and get it over with. and how this is all a me problem and i should just accept it. well that doesnt make me aroused and has further damaged my ability to become aroused by her. i have told her that i wont be having duty sex any longer and that id opt for the sexless. but i doubt i can hold that so im not sure where that leaves me.


Read the book I recommended (Passionate Marriage). It'll explain a lot.


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## DEMI6 (Apr 12, 2017)

First question how was your sex life before?

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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I think your wife sounds like a submissive woman who wants you to accept the role of the Dominant. 

It is much more common than you think.

And your failure to take on that role just keeps making her more and more upset. But she is never going to let you know what the real problem is, because she is submissive. That's how submissive women work.

You really should explore the possibility.


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## DEMI6 (Apr 12, 2017)

Clash77 said:


> i would view our problems to be worse than most couples.


Not the worse, your w or you could be on your death bed & your not!

Not the worse

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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

DEMI6 said:


> First question how was your sex life before?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk


before her?


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## DEMI6 (Apr 12, 2017)

Is sex the only thing in crisis right now?


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

william you may be on to something. i am responsible for all responsibilty in the relationship.


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## DEMI6 (Apr 12, 2017)

Clash77 said:


> before her?


No with her?


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## DEMI6 (Apr 12, 2017)

When I Know my husband means bussiness I try my best to change what it is he wants me to change.

Are yu meaning bussiness with her? Lol

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## DEMI6 (Apr 12, 2017)

I think all married ppl.. should make LOVE not have sex!

Find that love. go on 10 dates or 50...untill the love is booming again!

Don't resent her any longer.
This is a minor hurdle 


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

demi yes sex is only crisis. maybe not only problem but by far its the most troubling and only major issue. sex was better when i thought she half wanted it. and we have drove this topic into ground. she knows i mean business. i have left for a few days about a year ago. we both seem to be standing our ground on our stance on sex. she says come get it when i want it, but often seems annoyed if i show signs of wanting it. im tired of feeling like the sex is obligatory.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

seriously thinking of sexless marriage until i can figure out if sex is enough of a reason to separate. i already deal with built up lust on a weekly basis. i mean im almost there anyway. would be her dream come true from what i can tell


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Sex is often not the source of the problem. Men think it is because they often associate getting sex with marital satisfaction and imagine that if their wife would just have willing sex all would be well. 

I'm going to guess that she either has other sources of unhappiness in the marriage or the sex isn't that good for her.

Maybe she has poor body image? Are you a heavy porn user?

Have you approached this from the perspective of a mutually satisfying sex life and marriage, and asked if she's lacking something? Often when men make an issue of sex what women hear is "me me me me me". How the message is delivered is extremely important.

I posted this in another thread, but there is a huge difference between informing your wife that you aren't satisfied, which will be received as being all about you and your demands, and telling your wife that you desire mutually satisfying sex because you're not a rapist.....and because you love her.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> Sex is often not the source of the problem. Men think it is because they often associate getting sex with marital satisfaction and imagine that if their wife would just have willing sex all would be well.
> 
> I'm going to guess that she either has other sources of unhappiness in the marriage or the sex isn't that good for her.
> 
> ...


we are way past this. this was years ago...no not heavy porn user. both are attractive.....im sure she isnt enjoying it as niether am i.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

years ago i started trying to get with the program on just accepting no initiation from her and just letting her know when i wanted it. i shouldnt have agreed to it and accpted it back then. it has led me to the even worse problems i have now.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Lila said:


> You want your wife to _desire_ sex with you not just do it to meet a need. You get validation from sex (trust me, I get it - more than you'll know) but here's the thing you need to understand, your wife doesn't share that need for validation. What she does do is love you enough to meet your sexual needs. To use an analogy, you love chocolate cake, your wife - not so much, but she's willing to bake it for you and keep you company while you eat it.
> 
> You need to stop looking at it as her doing it out of a sense of obligation and start looking at it as her loving you so much that she is selflessly meeting your needs. Believe her when she says that she loves you and is attracted to you. Initiate when you feel like connecting intimately.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that you have to put up with something that makes you completely uncomfortable but if you wish to stay married to your wife, I recommend you read Passionate Marriage by Schnarch. It will help you to get rid of those unwanted feelings that it's wrong to accept your wife's desire to meet your needs unless she's passionate about it.


Fabulous post, Lila.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

There's a thread on here called ''thoughts on this?'' I don't know what section it's in, but a member here posted it about how his wife is 'LD' and he is 'HD' and how they're working to turn it around. It might help you to read it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Clash77 said:


> we are way past this. this was years ago...no not heavy porn user. both are attractive.....im sure she isnt enjoying it as niether am i.


So you've had an explicit discussion about mutually satisfying sex as a way to love and bond, as opposed to your needs not being met?

What was her response?


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

that she doesnt need sex to be happy but will provide it to me when needed basically.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Clash77 said:


> thx lila, that makes a little sense bc thats kind of what i hearfrom her. But that doesnt seem right. It has also begun to affect my performance because and my ability because i start having all kind of doubts on whether she actually wants sex. i guess this has stepped up a notch bc we recently went 5 weeks without sex and when i brough up the topic she became annoyed, got undressed, told me to stop *****ing, she basically doesnt want oral anymore(i thought that was her fav part) and climbed on was like, go ahead and get it over with. and how this is all a me problem and i should just accept it. well that doesnt make me aroused and has further damaged my ability to become aroused by her. i have told her that i wont be having duty sex any longer and that id opt for the sexless. but i doubt i can hold that so im not sure where that leaves me.





*Deidre* said:


> There's a thread on here called ''thoughts on this?'' I don't know what section it's in, but a member here posted it about how his wife is 'LD' and he is 'HD' and how they're working to turn it around. It might help you to read it.


That's my thread. @Hope1964 has some excellent thoughts and a similar experience in that same thread, as well. Both of us have made some partial headway in regards to our situations in a relatively short time frame (after banging our heads against the wall for many years).

In any case, what I see here is a vicious cycle. Your wife's interest in sex started waning several years ago, which in turns creates frustration and resentment from you, which in turn even further lessens her interest in sex. So on and so forth.

At this point in time, it's fairly irrelevant to try and figure out where her sex drive went all those years ago. It just did. However, it's likely because she was a new mother, and that tends to take all the focus away from pretty much everything else - including herself - until she reached a point where she realized she doesn't _need_ sex.

I can tell you that my wife doesn't need sex, either - but she does like it, and she's good at it.

I'd say that my marriage is/was similar to yours, in that she reached a point in the relationship where sex was no longer a necessity, in her eyes, despite it being an enjoyable thing to do. This is not uncommon at all with low desire people. LD's also tend to (IMO, needlessly) complicate sex, therefore it becomes an issue at one point or another.

Anyway, back to your wife. I'm just guessing here, but I imagine that once she had your child and settled into the role of motherhood, she no longer viewed sex as a necessary part of the marriage. Typically, when people have kids, some things get left in the rearview mirror, due to lack of time, lack of energy, the realization that some things just aren't as important, etc. Sometimes it ends up being sex - which is logical because your wife likely never viewed sex as all that important to begin with - much like mine.

The vicious cycle part is this - the more pressure she feels to get back on track, the less likely she'll respond. And the less 'fun' it all becomes. Until one day, something as basic as sex has become a chore. Something she feels she has to do.

I can tell you two things: one, my wife had children with her ex. The second was a c-section, so she needed time to heal. Her ex basically bugged her to take care of him shortly after, and she was not up to it, nor in the mood. It was just one other thing she felt pressured to do. All the normal baby things were necessary - this was not. It's very likely she would have got back on track at some point, but his excessive pressuring and general attitude did not exactly speed things up. By the time she was properly healed and the baby was on a manageable sleeping/eating schedule (which he was not helping out with, allegedly), he had started accusing of her of getting it elsewhere. Goodbye any sex drive she may have had. The relationship ended less than a year later, with him constantly accusing her of getting it elsewhere, pressuring her for sex and other things, etc.

Two: she was celibate for almost a year until we met, and we screwed like rabbits for about 2 years. Until we moved in together. Things started slowing down, and the cycle started. Me being frustrated (but never angry), and she simply not in the mood as often as she once was. This lasted for years. There's no doubt she felt pressured by me, and no doubt I built up resentment. It's hard not to.

Not saying this is your doing, but you do have to take some responsibility for the way things have gone.

A good start in your case is ensuring your wife isn't feeling pressured about sex any more. She is, whether you think so or not. Simply talking to her about it is pressure. How you react when she rejects you is pressure. Talking about marriage counselling or sex therapy is pressure. Some people simply shut down when they feel pressured - my wife certainly does.

The last few weeks, I've consciously removed all of this from my life, and things have perked up. I realized that my wife isn't responsible for my sex life - I am.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

Man you have real perspective on this. You had me till you put that you are responsible for your sex life. Im already in charge of mostly anything related to adult duties. So am i to also assume sole resposibility of making sex work in our marriage? How is it that everything that requires work and effort becomes my responsibility. Why is it my job to find the magic solution to why she no longer has any desire for sex? I have fulfilled every need she has in life and she puts no effort into helping me with this. And to her its a me problem only.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@Clash77 your problem is much easier to tesolve than you actually realize. And your problem is very common. My wife could also do without sex for ever. She claims this isn't true but I know it is.

But let's talk about you. You're missing something very important. And that is that your wife is happy in her relationship and loves you. It sounds like she will accommodate you. I realize that sounds horrible to you, but that's because you're looking at the completely wrong.

Imagine that your wife loves opera. I mean really really really loves it. Would you go even if you don't care for it at all? Of course! You will accommodate her. And you would fake it and smile and she'll have a great time. Then you'll realize you had a good time being with a happy wife

Your wife wants to accommodate you. Sex is getting in the way. I think you'll find that if you take regular sex and she sees you enjoy yourself, she will enjoy your pleasure.

Realize the path to her enjoying sex is through you. Plus there are lots of nice chemicals that are released that will bond you two closer. There's also the issue of habits. Your habits right now are running against you. You need to turn that around and get in the habit of sex.

Once you start having regular sex, and pretending to love it, then you can start to tell her what you'd really like is this or that. You're slowly going to let her know in all that you want her to show. The way that's not threatening.

You have no idea the kind of pressure you're actually placing on her without realizing it. She knows you're unhappy and now sex is a thing that drives you apart.

Make sex something that brings you together.

That's what we mean by you to taking charge

Other advice – see a sex therapist. That really helped me differentiate my needs and wants. I finally told my wife I need it daily. And she's accommodated me. We are both so much closer emotionally.

Sex therapist also recommended the Sinclair institute videos. They show normal couples having and talking about sex. Women respond extremely well to it. It shows happy couples and focuses on the couple interaction as well as having explicit sex. But it's nowhere near porn. It also shows healthy women being comfortable with their bodies and comfortable having sex. Many, many, many women need to see this to be comfortable with themselves and sex. 

With all the twerking and lewd videos out there, I think many "good girls" don't feel comfortable getting into sex without feelings cheap. Seeing a middle aged women riding her h, smiling and snuggling can be eye opening


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Hello 

I gather you're not interested in hearing from me, but I thought I would toss in one more post. Your last post makes me think it's worth a shot.

I think you should read this article:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...-submissive-paradox-power-in-sexual-relations

There are links within it, and references. 

Who knows. 

Do you really want to throw away your relationship because you refuse to even consider the possibility?

I do wish you luck.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Varies a LOT. Probably something like 2-3x/week is average, but a web search can find any number you want.

My wife is similar, thinks we have a normal / good sex life. That "normal" people don't have sex all the time. 





Clash77 said:


> whats average sex rate for happily married couples? she thinks we are normal.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

I feel like a dog in heat.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Clash77 your problem is much easier to tesolve than you actually realize. And your problem is very common. My wife could also do without sex for ever. She claims this isn't true but I know it is.
> 
> But let's talk about you. You're missing something very important. And that is that your wife is happy in her relationship and loves you. It sounds like she will accommodate you. I realize that sounds horrible to you, but that's because you're looking at the completely wrong.
> 
> ...



There's definitely some wisdom in this post, but i find it far too simplistic ... and dismissive. 
I can't imagine that wanting your spouse to enjoy the act itself rather than purely vicariously through you is "looking at it completely wrong." And while it's nice she's willing to accommodate, and may actually gain some "bonding" out of the togetherness, knowing the lack of desire is such that she wouldn't miss it if it didn't happen shakes at least part of the foundation of the relationship. Merely choosing to ignore this and focus on the "more important" aspect of the relationship doesn't mean the issue isn't there or isn't important. For most, desire is an essential element. Not the only element, and maybe not even the most important element, but an essential element nonetheless.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Submissive is VERY different from LD. A submissive person want sex, but they enjoy being controlled, / dominated, "pretend forced" into sex. A LD person doesn't want sex - they don't find dominance play fun - they don't want sex. The don't want to be in cuffs - because they don't want sex. They don't want to have sex with a strong dominant man because they don't want sex. 








WilliamM said:


> My experience is very different than yours.
> 
> But I have one major advantage. My wife listens to me, and takes me seriously, after a fashion.
> 
> ...


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

William I am open to anything but i just dont see her being ok with it. She doesnt even like to talk during sex...lol. I will run it by her though.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

There are intelligent people on this forum.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The OP is in a very difficult situation. His wife is basically saying that she will have sex to satisfy his needs, but that she doesn't enjoy it. That puts him in the position of feeling like he is selfish whenever he wants sex with his wife - something that normally should be a wonderful mutual bonding experience. 

There are people who simply don't want sex - I'm married to one. Some, like the OP's wife will endure it because it is their "duty", others simply say "no" - but in the end it doesn't matter. Having sex with the person you love, while feeling like you are "using" them is a terrible situation to be in. 

In many ways the OP's wife is doing worse than saying "no", she is putting all the blame on him. 

If she cared about him she would instead say "I love making you happy - you do so many good things for me, I really want to do this for you". That is a very different thing from what is basically "I'll let you use my body".


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

exactly


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

One of the things my wife has taught me is to never ask her anything. My wife is fairly extreme on the submission side, but from what I've read it seems to be common. When you ask, you shift responsibility to the respondent. 

My wife will never admit what she wants out loud. I had to learn it all by trial and error. She maintains that's just how submissive women are. Her only exposure to other submissive women is from reading romance novels. I have to say, those are rather astonishing. 

There might be things you could try without asking her anything. One of the things I noticed about my wife right away when we started dating was when I kissed her and backed her into a wall she would put her hands up over her head. When I grabbed her wrists she became extremely amorous. If I ignored her hand placement she quickly lost interest in kissing.

My wife sees asking as a sign of weakness, and gets extremely belligerent if I ask her questions. I study her a lot. She is, after all, my favorite subject.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I will add, the reason I posted again is because you mentioned that your wife already makes you decide most things, or makes you shoulder most of the responsibilities. That is very classic for a submissive woman. Even my wife's counselors have mentioned that.

There was a time I was angry at my wife about all this. But never enough to consider leaving her over it. I did want her shrinks to fix her, but that's not possible. It's an integral part of her and they said I needed to learn to accept it, or leave her.

There was no question about leaving her, so I adapted. I am naturally very Dominant, so it wasn't difficult to learn what I needed to do for her.

At one point in our marriage, 43 years now, Mary said since she never said no she was seducing me every time. 

Good luck


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Clash77 said:


> William I am open to anything but i just dont see her being ok with it. She doesnt even like to talk during sex...lol. I will run it by her though.




Talk may go no where. Would you want to talk about opera? Be open to dialog but show her you appreciate her working on this with you


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Desire is a very interesting thing. I totally get you wanting to see desire - I do too.

I'm just saying it may look and feel different to her and if you can accept that, then you can start to work with what she is offering.

I heard of a study that said frequency of sex was most correlated to partners willing to accommodate each other. So you have a key component available to you

Reducing your anger and resentment through acceptance may allow you to tap into that


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

Clash77 said:


> let me clarify a little better. me and the wife have had great sex in the past. but her LD has steadily gotten worse over time. Now because i feel like she is only giving me sex bc she feels obligated, i have started pursuing it less and farther down we go. She has basically said that she isnt concerned with having pleasurable sex only satisfying my needs. This in turn has killed my desire to have sex bc for me sex without passion just feels wrong. She says she doesnt mind it but to me its not right. I am still athletic build and have a strong drive so it over rides my will to not ask her for sex. She rarely kisses me or hugs me and as ive said never iniates sex, no matter how long i go without. i have threatened to leave in the past but she swears that we dont have issues and tbat she loves me and is attracted to me. I married her because she is a beautiful, trustworthy woman and we have a son together. however nothing about our relationship is fair and at times the sex thing sends me into mind**** city. im also not getting any younger......lol


This could be her pulling away from you emotionally because you are not meeting other needs, I don't know just an idea.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Oh. Since someone pointed out that post about your wife not talking during sex, I remember a conversation I did have with my wife along that line once.

My wife will never, absolutely never, talk during sex. Our time together is mostly sexual. And she almost never talks to me at all about anything else. The result is she just talks to me very little. 

I did demand some answers regarding that once. 

She said I should be able to read her mind. Then she said everything she ever needed to say to me she said before we got married. 

But she's a lot of fun. I enjoy learning about her.

One thing I have learned, talk ruins her mood.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Clash77 said:


> Man you have real perspective on this. You had me till you put that you are responsible for your sex life. Im already in charge of mostly anything related to adult duties. So am i to also assume sole resposibility of making sex work in our marriage? How is it that everything that requires work and effort becomes my responsibility. Why is it my job to find the magic solution to why she no longer has any desire for sex? I have fulfilled every need she has in life and she puts no effort into helping me with this. And to her its a me problem only.


So essentially, you've become her *'daddy.'*

No wonder she has zero sexual attraction to you.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

ive often felt like this.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

We are in our sixties, and have been married for 39 years, together for 43. We have mind blowing intense sex every other day. We would do it every day, but at our age it takes a little longer to recharge.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

not sure if that was a negative comment towards me or not but seems very accurate and when you put it like that, doesnt seem fixable.


She'sStillGotIt said:


> Clash77 said:
> 
> 
> > Man you have real perspective on this. You had me till you put that you are responsible for your sex life. Im already in charge of mostly anything related to adult duties. So am i to also assume sole resposibility of making sex work in our marriage? How is it that everything that requires work and effort becomes my responsibility. Why is it my job to find the magic solution to why she no longer has any desire for sex? I have fulfilled every need she has in life and she puts no effort into helping me with this. And to her its a me problem only.
> ...


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

I would too if my partner had 1 percent of the sexual desire that i do.


Taxman said:


> We are in our sixties, and have been married for 39 years, together for 43. We have mind blowing intense sex every other day. We would do it every day, but at our age it takes a little longer to recharge.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

i told her i think she should seek some form of employement and that we she just agree to a sexless marriage.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> i told her i think she should seek some form of employement and that we she just agree to a sexless marriage.


Could you elaborate on "we she just agree to a sexless marriage"?

How does she feel about getting a job?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

What was her response?


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

sexless as in no sex bc i am no longer interested in duty sex. she has not responded about the job. im sure she is happy about sexless marriage and sad about the job......lol


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Duty sex is a drag. Even enthusiastic "I'm doing this because I love you" sex can be a huge turn off, even though it is well intentioned. 

Men like to complain about how women are "high maintenance." But truth be told, we're just as high maintenance, but in different ways. We don't just need the physical contact, we crave and need _the desire for physical contact_ from our spouses. In fact, sometimes the latter is even more important, even if it doesn't come to fruition. Anybody can give the former, but the latter sometimes just isn't there which is more crushing than the lack of sex itself. 

*Dan Fogelberg -- Lonely in Love*

Some say that love is its own
Love is its own reward
But I can't help but believe
There's got to be more.
A man needs a woman
To have and to hold
*To love him in body
As well as in soul
I need your desire
Where did the fire go?*
I keep trying to sleep
But sleep won't be mine tonight
There's so much sorrow inside
And baby, I don't know why.
I give you your freedom
I give you my love
I give all I have every time that we touch
I don't know, baby,
Maybe I give too much.
Now I'm lonely in love
Why must I be lonely in love
I'm so lonely in love
Baby why must I be lonely
Why must I be lonely in love.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Are you still the alpha male that she pursued in the beginning?


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

110 %. I think it has to do more with the daddy perception thing. I am the over achiever and she is very laid back. She has never helped with business. She would barely spend time at the house over the 3 years it took me to build it. She doesn't do the grocery shopping, she has never brought any income into relationship. She only cooks about 3 times per week. She does keep the house pretty clean. She won't do any outside chores. I am a master electrician and work is tough and stressful. No sympathy or sweetness after 14 hour very hot days. I mean I could go on but it just gets more depressing. She is not a bad person and I do love and trust her but I feel like the unfairness and lack of physical intimacy are becoming unbearable. the thoughts about other women are.........numerous.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

I feel over worked and underpaid.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

or better yet overworked and not paid.....way worse.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Clash77 said:


> I feel over worked and underpaid.




Of course, and it seems you are.
An alpha male that does the grocery shopping cooking and all the outside work, after working 14 hrs a day.
What can you do about it? Stop doing it. Set some boundaries for yourself, make sure you are not over exerting yourself, take care of YOU
Don't enable her by doing it for her. She will figure it out. Or not. Kids should also be helping as age appropriate.
And cut off the cable or internet. Unless she pays for it.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I noted that not many women responded to your post.

A few said read this book or that book.

Why is this?

There is nothing to say here. You are an OK guy, father, husband.
Your plight has been voiced here so damn often....
There is "no easy" cure for THIS......
Divorce is your answer...what about her answer?
..........................................................................................................................
The women on TAM know.....those cute little [fold-bearing] devils. 

If a women ain't into it....they just ain't. 

It could be because of you. It likely is because of THEM.

Most women know it because some of THAT is in them, too....., three, four, five times...........ka-boom.

It women are hot, they are hot, if not.............bad luck for the husband. Hell, warm is good, too, three, four......

Note: If a women is hot, then one man may not be able to keep them under his wing....they will fly away...as a butterfly....from one flower's stamen to another, to another. 

Nature wants women to be monogamous. To keep the species intact. 

Mother Nature is losing her grip on these Damsels...Damn-Cells.

Just Sayin'

PS... M.N. has a firm grip on your wife.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

tried to communicate again this morning. ended in disaster. I tell her where I am having problems with the relationship and it immediately goes to- I don't respect her, I don't do anything for her except pay all the bills, I am mean to her. 'mean to her is my definition of telling her that a marriage with no sexual desire isn't right or that the scale of responsibility in the relationship is very unbalanced. I tell her that I resent her at times bc of the sex and her ability to spend so much of her time doing whatever she wants and not trying to share the load even when I appear to be being waining under life's pressures. she views our relationship as me telling her that she's not important because she doesn't make money. all I'm telling her is that **** ain't fair. and that's a fact.


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## 241happyhour (Jan 31, 2011)

I was in your boat for about a year after our third child. I had a heart to heart talk with my wife and she knew I wasn't kidding when I said I won't live the rest of my life with our current situation. We were having sex about once every 7-10 days. That may be enough for some people but not me. She could go much longer without sex and it wouldn't phase her at all which has been mentioned about several wives in this post. Thank God she stepped up to the plate and it's been 8 years now since that conversation and everything is great. You just have to make up your mind if you can live like this the rest of your life. I couldn't and it doesn't sound like you can either. Like you said earlier--"your not getting any younger." Make up your mind and follow through with your actions. Good luck.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

man I agree. good post. and thanks.


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

@Clash77 I think you feel as I do. Overworked and not appreciated at all. 


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

bad place to be even if it's with a good woman.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> tried to communicate again this morning. ended in disaster. I tell her where I am having problems with the relationship and it immediately goes to- I don't respect her, I don't do anything for her except pay all the bills, I am mean to her. 'mean to her is my definition of telling her that a marriage with no sexual desire isn't right or that the scale of responsibility in the relationship is very unbalanced. I tell her that I resent her at times bc of the sex and her ability to spend so much of her time doing whatever she wants and not trying to share the load even when I appear to be being waining under life's pressures. she views our relationship as me telling her that she's not important because she doesn't make money. all I'm telling her is that **** ain't fair. and that's a fact.


"No, you're not important because you are not holding up your half of the deal, and it is not money"


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Seriously Clash, you should think about leaving. The problem is less her being low drive and more letting you know how much your sex drive is a pain in her ass.

If she was attracted to you and interested in your happiness, she would welcome the opportunity to bond with you. Instead, she is palpably apathetic. Is she like this woth everything, or do certain interests get her attention?

Sounds like she is doing what she feels she must to keep you around. She wants someone to handle everything and right now that person is you. What do you think her chances are of replacing you and all you do with her attitude towards life?



Clash77 said:


> demi yes sex is only crisis. maybe not only problem but by far its the most troubling and only major issue. sex was better when i thought she half wanted it. and we have drove this topic into ground. she knows i mean business. i have left for a few days about a year ago. we both seem to be standing our ground on our stance on sex. she says come get it when i want it, but often seems annoyed if i show signs of wanting it. im tired of feeling like the sex is obligatory.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Most likely, it is that way because that is her marriage paradigm. You think of marriage as a team of two people building a life and tackling challenges together, and she does not.

Have you had a basic discussion about what each of your roles in marriage should be? If not, ask her. I think she will justify the current situation by saying it is your job to do all that. I hope I am wrong, but you will likely find otherwise.

Her happiness and attraction to you depends on you being that beast of burden. What happens when you don't let up on sex, or when you don't want to work long hours to support her?



Clash77 said:


> How is it that everything that requires work and effort becomes my responsibility. Why is it my job to find the magic solution to why she no longer has any desire for sex?


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

so our latest discussion was me suggesting that from now on I'll do my own laundry and take care of myself and she get a job and pay her own car note and cell phone. she told me 'to hit the road jack' and that I could sell her car that if she paid for one it wouldn't be that one. mind you she picked the car out 4 years ago new. I cant believe this is where my relationship of 15 years has gotten.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

my heart is heavy this morning. seems like we may not weather this storm. I could easily kiss ass and go back to accepting my situation. She is the mother of my child and the love of my life. But I cannot ignore that I have taken on the 'daddy' role in her eyes, which she admits, and I just don't think I can live happily like that forever. She always has represented that we will always work our problems out and never divorce and other things that make me feel like I'm going to be the one to throw the marriage away. She said that I'm crazy and I dream up all these negative scenarios when the only problem is that I put her down emotionally. Basically just get over it, it's normal......but is it? am I crazy? am I throwing away my marriage for nothing? doesn't feel like it when I get nothing but anger from her and she tells me to hit the road when I suggest she take on some personal responsibility. Sucks


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Clash77 said:


> my heart is heavy this morning. seems like we may not weather this storm. I could easily kiss ass and go back to accepting my situation. She is the mother of my child and the love of my life. But I cannot ignore that I have taken on the 'daddy' role in her eyes, which she admits, and I just don't think I can live happily like that forever. She always has represented that we will always work our problems out and never divorce and other things that make me feel like I'm going to be the one to throw the marriage away. She said that I'm crazy and I dream up all these negative scenarios when the only problem is that I put her down emotionally. Basically just get over it, it's normal......but is it? am I crazy? am I throwing away my marriage for nothing? doesn't feel like it when I get nothing but anger from her and she tells me to hit the road when I suggest she take on some personal responsibility. Sucks


Tell her that you are sorry, but it is clear to you that you are not able to inspire her and that you are freeing her up for an eventual new man to come into her life who will be able to inspire her to a mutually satisfying sex life.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Yeah that does suck. But that does not mean this was your fault necessarily. Some women just don't see marriage as worth it without the free ride.

My ex-W kept on taking from me, got butt-hurt and resentful when I stopped catering to her so much (even though I still paid most bills). She left when I got laid off.

Same deal with her 2nd H. He's making much more than her, taking care of the home, etc. Then he gets disabled in a car accident (already having health issues), she gets *****y, and it falls apart.

Your W definitely falls into this category. She needs to stop being a princess. You need to put your foot down and refuse to coddle her. Tell her she will be a highly productive adult, either as your wife or as a single mother. 

Also, arrange your business affairs so that you can be a single parent effectively if need be. Cut back your schedule some. Hire an associate electrician to split the work, or just accept less jobs.



Clash77 said:


> my heart is heavy this morning...
> 
> doesn't feel like it when I get nothing but anger from her and she tells me to hit the road when I suggest she take on some personal responsibility. Sucks


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

She called your bluff when she said 'hit the road jack'. You must convince her you're dead serious that you will leave unless there is change. She's not taking you seriously. You need to change that. You need to prove you are not bluffing. Perhaps file and then be at peace with the 2 possible outcomes: (1) she finally takes you seriously and change occurs or (2) she doesn't change and so you follow through with the divorce. But you must follow through else whatever respect she had left will be forever gone.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

I wasn't bluffing and at that point I hadn't pulled the I'm leaving card. I just wanna execute a proper leave if that's what happens


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> so our latest discussion was me suggesting that from now on I'll do my own laundry and take care of myself and she get a job and pay her own car note and cell phone. she told me 'to hit the road jack' and that I could sell her car that if she paid for one it wouldn't be that one. mind you she picked the car out 4 years ago new. I cant believe this is where my relationship of 15 years has gotten.


No, SHE can hit the road. It is clear she sees you as nothing but a paycheck and a roof over her head. I am so sorry.



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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

thx Lucy but overall I'm in a good place mentally. I feel as if I have given her and our marriage tremendous effort and I have never broken our vows. I think one day whether she admits it aloud or not she will feel quilt knowing she could have been a lot better mate and partner. I have a clear conscious.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

whenever I become this confident about changing my situation she starts phase 2 of keeping me. phase 1 is to be a flat out *****. phase 2 is a stomach illness that is an effect of her hernia. she will draw on my sympathy to try and bridge the gap so she doesn't have to apologize, acknowledge current problem and also buys time with LD problems.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Clash77 said:


> whenever I become this confident about changing my situation she starts phase 2 of keeping me. phase 1 is to be a flat out *****. phase 2 is a stomach illness that is an effect of her hernia. she will draw on my sympathy to try and bridge the gap so she doesn't have to apologize, acknowledge current problem and also buys time with LD problems.




And you'll fall for it because you're a sucker.

The "hit the road jack" was the **** test and you failed. So she knows what a sucker you are.

Holding it in and saying to US that you meant it is weak - absolutely not alpha (I think the whole alpha / beta thing is weak bs made up by weak guys but I'm older) - it's passive aggressive.

No. You are doing this all wrong. If you're serious about leaving it's in you to do it right by being a man and being upfront. A man will say "I need and expect x, y and z in a wife. You are failing at all 3. Since I've made my expectations of marriage clear, I have to assume the marriage is over in your eyes. And in that case, I'll file next week unless I'm misunderstanding something."

You can't give that ultimatum because you haven't spelled out what your expectations are and how she's failed. So correct that, give her a little time to digest it and respond, the make your ultimatum.

"The right way to do this" is honest and open communications and clear expectations. You have been weak when she pushes back or feigns illness. Stop that and you will either end up with a proper wife or be gone

Oh and be prepared to gear where you are failing as a husband. Listen and don't respond and come back to us and tell us what she says. Tell her you've heard her and will reflect on it 


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> my heart is heavy this morning. seems like we may not weather this storm. I could easily kiss ass and go back to accepting my situation. She is the mother of my child and the love of my life. But I cannot ignore that I have taken on the 'daddy' role in her eyes, which she admits, and I just don't think I can live happily like that forever. She always has represented that we will always work our problems out and never divorce and other things that make me feel like I'm going to be the one to throw the marriage away. She said that I'm crazy and I dream up all these negative scenarios when the only problem is that I put her down emotionally. Basically just get over it, it's normal......but is it? am I crazy? am I throwing away my marriage for nothing? doesn't feel like it when I get nothing but anger from her and she tells me to hit the road when I suggest she take on some personal responsibility. Sucks


She doesn't believe you are going anywhere.

And...until you show her otherwise, she is right.

Always give defiant people what they want. It rarely works out like they expect.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Clash77 said:


> whenever I become this confident about changing my situation she starts phase 2 of keeping me. phase 1 is to be a flat out *****. phase 2 is a stomach illness that is an effect of her hernia. she will draw on my sympathy to try and bridge the gap so she doesn't have to apologize, acknowledge current problem and also buys time with LD problems.


Why do you keep painting yourself as a victim?

Her manipulation only works when you allow it. 

You are where you are because you have chosen to be.

If you keep doing what you are doing, you will keep getting what you are getting.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

I don't view myself as a victim but I do view my son as the victim. I am however making a stand.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Clash77 said:


> I think one day whether she admits it aloud or not she will feel quilt knowing she could have been a lot better mate and partner.


Not likely, although you should not care either way.

What you need to understand is she thinks treating you this way is okay. She could be very selfish, think she is out of your league and deserves what she seeks, or think all marriages are like this.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

jld said:


> Tell her that you are sorry, but it is clear to you that you are not able to inspire her and that you are freeing her up for an eventual new man to come into her life who will be able to inspire her to a mutually satisfying sex life.


Really? The problem in this marriage is that he didn't "inspire" her? In your mind, is it even possible for a woman to be at fault?


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

Clash77 said:


> let me clarify a little better. me and the wife have had great sex in the past. but her LD has steadily gotten worse over time. Now because i feel like she is only giving me sex bc she feels obligated
> ....
> 
> She rarely kisses me or hugs me and as ive said never iniates sex, no matter how long i go without. i have threatened to leave in the past but she swears that we dont have issues and tbat she loves me and is attracted to



She's not attracted to you.

She's not attracted to you. 

To cut short the analysis of nearly all LD/HD issues where only the HD partner is available for discussion, you only unfortunately have the standard options: 
-Leave.
-Stay and be unhappy.
-Stay and be unhappy and cheat on her to get your sexual needs met outside the marriage.
-Ask her to open the relationship so you can get your sexual needs met elsewhere with her permission.
-Or, run a self-improvement plan to make yourself a more attractive man ("run the MAP") and see if you can increase her attraction to you and see if that improves things. This may or may not work.

There's lots of advice on TAM and elsewhere on how to do this and what this entails. It's on fundamentally about being an interesting attractive confident person. It's not about being her doormat or butler and making her life easier. 

Fundamentally you can only change yourself and your interactions with her, you can't force her to change. 

I highly encourage you to run a self-improvement plan and be the most attractive person you can be, to see if she responds before taking steps towards leaving her. Don't stay and continue to be unhappy and be in a relationship with a woman who is not interested in you. Be aware though that fundamentally you can only change yourself and change your interactions with her, you can't change her.


Read Athol Kay. If you've gotten lazy and overweight and complacent then focus on getting in shape, dressing better, and being more confident and assertive dealing with her outside the bedroom. 

Start with taking leadership on meals and activities. Tell her on Thursday that you've made diner reservations for Friday at that new restaurant you heard about. When she pushes back and on Friday starts complaining that her stomach isn't right, etc, and pushing back and saying she doesn't feel like going out, go without her (you don't have to go out to nice place by yourself, maybe just go see a movie by yourself or whatever) and leave her at home. 

Start back up doing the the martial art classes or the bike rides or whatever activities you used to do before you met her and early on when you were dating that you stopped doing over the course of the marriage. Invite her to join you and go without her when she says no. 

Be a leader and be confident. Do interesting things and go to interesting places and Insist that you are going to have a fun and interesting life and she's welcome to join you if she wants. 

Lift weights, cut way way down on the booze, eat healthy, and lift more weights. Get in really good shape with a focus on loosing your gut and building up muscle mass.

Remember the bedroom comes last.

*Only* after a few months of your self-improvement program, then start focusing on sex. Start by flirting with her when you both know know timing isn't going to let it get anywhere so she is less threatened that it will lead to sexual activity. Send flirty texts. Responsive desire women need some time to warm up, so don't initiate sex when she's not expecting it - send a text in the afternoon that you're thinking of how she looked in the shower that morning , etc, to give her a heads up that it's sexy time later that day. 


After a few months of you working extremely hard to make yourself attractive and interesting, have a conversation with her about your sexual expectations in the marriage.

Ask her to read "His needs her needs". The conversation is that you have reasonable expectations around frequency and activities and that she needs to up her level of effort in the marriage and start to work harder to meet your needs. State that you have reasonable needs and reasonable expectations that need to be met and don't back down from that.

If after several months of serious hard work of self-improvement on your part, you get nothing but pushback and resistance, and especially if there is a refusal to even have a conversation about expectations (or her breaking down and crying as an evasive move to avoid the conversation), then you have your answer and you know she is never going to be attracted to you and meet your needs. 

And then you leave.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

What's the most important factor right now? Her getting a job, and being a parent not a child or the lack of sex? Even if you do leave, is she going to have custody or are you? If it's you, feel free to care less whether she grows up or not. And a lack of sex is a good enough reason all on its own.



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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

packed a bag and left tonight.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

and for the record I'm in great physical shape and I'm an attractive guy. all of the posts about possibly letting myself go are not close. wife is downplaying everything and saying I'm over reacting. earlier she was basically saying that we don't have sex because I'm mean and emotionally abusive. she's no angel herself I promise and there are key facts here. she isn't sexually attracted to me. she has stuck me with 90 percent of responsibility. I've built her a home on her parents land and allowed her to spend her time doing whatever she pleases. she will in fact help everyone but me. the list goes on and on....my son is upset. that hurts the worst.


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## Clash77 (Apr 25, 2017)

think I have become the horniest guy on the internet..........??


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## fetishwife (Apr 22, 2012)

Aside from your Son, you have no reason to stay. Find a loving and sexual woman and move forward with her, or just stay single and have fun. Concentrate on your self and your child too.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Day 7 now. How goes it Clash?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Clash77 said:


> Not sure why Im posting this, i guess i really dont have another avenue to discuss it....
> background
> Im 39, she is 33. been together 15 years married 8. Both attractive with good builds. she doesnt work and hasnt since she was pregnant with our 11 yr old son. Sex hasnt been good since before we even got married. She never desires it or iniates it. She has a lot of wonderful traits but i feel like our relationship is very unfair and i am beginning to resent her. Our frequency is down to once a month. She no longer desires any form of forplay. She doesnt even like me to do Oral on her and forget about it for me. I recently finished building our house ans our life should be great. But i cant help but to want to have great sex with a woman again before i die. We both have been faithful throughout marriage. What am i to do?
> .



Did you marry my wife? Seriously??


You guys sound just like Mrs.CuddleBug and I. Wow.


What can you do? Take the 5 love languages quiz separately and then compare results to each other.

Profiles Archive - The 5 Love Languages®


You sound like a high sex drive guy known as HD.

She sounds like a low sex drive lady known as LD.


It's called sexual mismatch.


There really isn't much you can do. I suggest you buy a really fantastic sex toy and use it when the mood strikes you. Spend in the hundreds. Then you never pester her for sex and when she actually wants sex, no problem. It's better than meeting a hot lady with a high fun sex drive who wants you only for sex, friend with benefits.


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