# How much help does child need with homework?



## Jadiel (Oct 10, 2012)

My ten year old, in fourth grade, absolutely can and will not do his homework without someone holding his hand and walking him through every step. I dont get it. 

To clarify, no, he's not handicapped in any way. No downs syndrome, austism, dyslexia, etc....I know its just a focus and confidence issue, but sometimes, he's sooooooo frustrating, its hard for me to give him that little pat on the back to let him know he's doing good.

Example; lets say he's doing math. I'm better at the math, so I usually help with math homework (mama is better at english and writing type things). I'll try to get him doing it himself (Hey, in the fourth grade I was doing all my own homework!). I'll just get sat down and then "HEEEEELLLLLLLP!"

"what's the problem?"

"I CAN'T do this problem! It's SO HARD!"

Ok, so its something like 572 + 160. I see its an intimidating problem because there's so many numbers in there.

I could just flat out tell him the answer, but that's stupid. I try to guide him. I try to break it down and show the parts, but its like, hes taken his mind and just flipped the off switch.

"Ok Jeffrey, lets start simple. What's 2 + 0?"

"20?"

"Jeffrey. You know what two plus zero is."

"Uhhh...10?"

"Seriously? Two plus zero jeffrey! How many is two? Good. How many is zero? Good! Now, if you have two of something, and add zero to it, how many to you have?"

"Uhhh...2?"

"Good job! I knew you could do it. Now, what's 7 plus 6?"

"76?"

"Come on Jeffrey, dont kid around. You know this one. 7 + 6. You just did it two seconds ago. Seven....plus....six. Come on."

<thinking>

"2?"

Its at this point I start getting frustrated of course, and then I'm like "Do you pay attention in class? what does your teacher teach you?"

I also know he knows this stuff. I know for a fact. How do I know? Because I see him do it every day. Oh, if he's playing an XBOX game, and the boss has 1000 hitpoints, and he his bullets each do 2.5 damage apiece, he immediately knows "Oh, I need 400 bullets!"

Obviously, if the kid has trouble with something I will help him, but I cannot stand the simple lack of trying.


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## southern wife (Jul 22, 2011)

Tell him you're not going to help him until ALL of it is complete. Then you'll go back and check it. That's what I do with my 2nd grade daughter. I use to sit with her and "assist" with each equation. But she knows what she's doing. 

Now I just tell her, I'm cooking and not going back and forth. I'll look at it when you're done. Seems to work. She knows can't do other things until homework is done. 

It's helpful to do homework as soon as they get home, while their brain is still in "school" mode. Otherwise, after playing games, or going outside, it's hard to shift gears back to school.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

A few possibilities here:

Processing disorder - Doesn't mean he's "slow" or dumb, just that he processes things differently and has more trouble making the connections between one problem and the next (identical but with different numbers) problem. 

ADHD - He may be having trouble focusing and/or remembering what he's doing, especially if he's "used up" most of the focus he's capable of generating at his age on being good in school all day.

Attention - How much one-one-one time do you spend with him other than when you are helping him with homework? Is he prone to attention seeking behavior in other areas besides homework?

Button-Pushing - Another option is that, being a bright kid, he's figured out that this behavior pushes your buttons. And, being a kid, he's enjoying a little high from doing it.


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## geewiz (Mar 30, 2014)

southern wife said:


> Tell him you're not going to help him until ALL of it is complete. Then you'll go back and check it. I tell her I'm cooking and not going back and forth. I'll look at it when you're done. She knows can't do other things until homework is done.
> 
> It's helpful to do homework as soon as they get home, while their brain is still in "school" mode. Otherwise, after playing games, or going outside, it's hard to shift gears back to school.


Agreed



Rowan said:


> A few possibilities here:
> 
> Attention - How much one-one-one time do you spend with him other than when you are helping him with homework? Is he prone to attention seeking behavior in other areas besides homework?
> 
> Button-Pushing - Another option is that, being a bright kid, he's figured out that this behavior pushes your buttons. And, being a kid, he's enjoying a little high from doing it.


My first and second guess in this order. If it is the first you need to connect with your child the way you do during those times but on something productive or enjoyable. I think my daughter asks me questions she already knows the answer to and I cam her on it and say if you want to spend tie together lets go. It isn't necessary or forthcoming to manipulate or disguise a request for quality time. THen I honor or let her know when and stick to it.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

southern wife said:


> Tell him you're not going to help him until ALL of it is complete. Then you'll go back and check it. That's what I do with my 2nd grade daughter. I use to sit with her and "assist" with each equation. But she knows what she's doing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This! I'm in college, and I don't remember doing my homework with any of my parents when I was in 4th grade. You should check after he is done not take his hand to find the answers. I'm sorry but a 10 year old should know what 2 plus 0 is


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

I really believe that school should only start at 11 or 12 years old. Before that kids should just play.

Kids develop at different rate and that creates a lot of stress when they are in school.

My wife and I are doing this with our kids and it works great. Our oldest is in college now and she is having straight As in Chemical Engineering. Even in English she got an A. She only read (1 to 2 books per week), no English classes before she started college. For Math she studied Saxon and she is doing great in College calculus.

We should give kids a break!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Depends on the subject... Some resulted in more wails than others 

Look into Kumon Math program in your area. Both my girls did it and it was tremendous help.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Sounds to me like the early warning signals of passive aggression. Some kids learn that if they do nothing, someone will come along and do it for them.

If taking away his privileges doesn't get him to make a more honest effort, I would get some advice from a child psychologist.

My youngest sister came along at a time when my parents were too tired to parent. My mother got to the point where she was paying tutors to do her homework.


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## m0nk (Mar 14, 2014)

Students should spend roughly an hour a night on homework for each class or subject in the upper levels. Try rewording the problem for him or ask him to draw a visual representation of the problem. Is he more artistic? Logical? Is math his biggest issue? How does he perform in math in school? Have you contacted the teacher? There could be many factors at play here...I suggest telling him you won't help him on any problems he hasn't first attempted himself. Do a couple practice problems together and ask the teacher for some on level challenge for your student. Don't rush to kumon to dump money/resources there if you have the time and inclination to work with your child first. Your child will learn from your problem solving skills and your modeling and will learn to associate math with stress, or that problems can be shuffled off if you have enough $ to send someone to tutoring. Nothing beats sitting down with your child to work through something. Tutors should be utilized to supplement with rigor and challenge OR provide remedial intervention IMO. Talk with your kiddo first in a non threatening way out to eat somewhere FAR away from the math and see what he has to say. Putting that in the context of his age, attention, interests, mastery of skills, and info from the teacher will help, and seeing that dad cares and will stick through it with him will teach him a lesson more valuable than multi-digit subtraction. Just some suggestions...

Source: I'm a teacher and tutor myself. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

southern wife said:


> Tell him you're not going to help him until ALL of it is complete. Then you'll go back and check it. That's what I do with my 2nd grade daughter. I use to sit with her and "assist" with each equation. But she knows what she's doing.
> 
> Now I just tell her, I'm cooking and not going back and forth. I'll look at it when you're done. Seems to work. She knows can't do other things until homework is done.
> 
> It's helpful to do homework as soon as they get home, while their brain is still in "school" mode. Otherwise, after playing games, or going outside, it's hard to shift gears back to school.





Rowan said:


> A few possibilities here:
> 
> Processing disorder - Doesn't mean he's "slow" or dumb, just that he processes things differently and has more trouble making the connections between one problem and the next (identical but with different numbers) problem.
> 
> ...



Both of these!

I will add though, there were times when my kids came home JUST SPENT! Sometimes it was true brain fatigue and other times they really just needed to run off some steam (especially when the weather began to get warmer after winter.) 

I let them decide to take a 30 minute goof off break, or get up earlier next morning to get it done. My oldest always took the break, my middle always got up earlier the next morning, and my youngest did both.


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## married tech (Jan 18, 2014)

> Students should spend roughly an hour a night on homework for each class or subject in the upper levels.


I highly disagree. Back in highschool I had on average 7 classes a day (Math, English, Science, Computer, alt language, Social studies/history, Phy Ed) and was at school from 8 am to 3 pm. Give a 45 minute ride on the bus each way plus 30 minutes getting up and ready for school each morning and I started my day at 6:45 am while getting home at 4:00 PM. 

Add 6 hours of homework and my school day would have been done at 10 PM or roughly 15 hours and 15 minutes long add in a couple of meals and call it a non stop 16 hour day or an 70 hour work week for any adult.  


Thats way too much to be expecting of a kid.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I don't know MT. My younger one studied 4 pm to 11 pm daily plus weekends in high school. Was accepted to a number of highly ranked colleges with considerable merit money. 

She's finding college easier than high school


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Sounds like the kid just doesn't want to do it. And I don't blame him. It's boring, abstract from real life applications, and takes away from more enjoyable things he could be doing. By asking for your help he at least gets a bit of company. He knows the stuff and he doesn't need ADHD medication! 

What he needs is for it to be more enjoyable. See if you can work that in there somehow. Maybe he can break it up a little and have breaks where he does stuff he likes. Maybe he can sit close to you while he does it and chat a bit. That probably won't even stretch it out much more than he's already stretching it out. Anyway, you know your kid; use your imagination.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> I don't know MT. My younger one studied 4 pm to 11 pm daily plus weekends in high school. Was accepted to a number of highly ranked colleges with considerable merit money.
> 
> She's finding college easier than high school


Yes, but OP's son is 10!


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## married tech (Jan 18, 2014)

> I don't know MT. My younger one studied 4 pm to 11 pm daily plus weekends in high school. Was accepted to a number of highly ranked colleges with considerable merit money.
> 
> She's finding college easier than high school


Yes but she is obviously self motivated to do so. Most kids are not that way of which in my eyes kids who are overdriven that much have something wrong with them just as much as the slackers. 

I have cousins who were self driven that hard. Burned out and had massive breakdowns by the time they were adults is what they got. 

Yes I found college far easier as well. What I was learning actually related to practical reality. Too much of public school before that was more about the politics and whos who than it ever was about learning something that would be practical and have a real application in life. 

As with the OP's kid I was that ways as well. If I could not find any rational application to how something worked in real life I have absolutely no interest in it whatsoever. 
Once I got to college and got into applied mathematics holy enlightenment batman! That scribble made sense and actually gave real answers to real life questions and to this day I am highly respected by those who know me for having superior applied mathematics abilities.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You should meet my wife then... PhD in applied math, born and raised a couple (I think, it's one of those Borat type places) countries east of Turkey? Mid 50's, size 6, very healthy, serious income. Loves housework, cooking, gardening. 

On the minus side she hates kids, sex, people in general, and spending money unless it's for "the house" 

Moral of the story: applied math is bad for you :rofl:. I'm happy I stuck to cognitive psychology. I can't do calculus but I can psychoanalyze most small appliances!!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> You should meet my wife then... PhD in applied math, born and raised a couple (I think, it's one of those Borat type places) countries east of Turkey? Mid 50's, size 6, very healthy, serious income. Loves housework, cooking, gardening.
> 
> On the minus side she hates kids, sex, people in general, and spending money unless it's for "the house"
> 
> Moral of the story: applied math is bad for you :rofl:. I'm happy I stuck to cognitive psychology. *I can't do calculus but I can psychoanalyze most small appliances!!*


:lol:

Does that include your size 6 wife?


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

m0nk said:


> Students should spend roughly an hour a night on homework for each class or subject in the upper levels.
> 
> Source: I'm a teacher and tutor myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Boy do I hope you never teach or tutor my kid. Students should definitely NOT do that much homework. Thats ridiculous.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> :lol:
> 
> Does that include your size 6 wife?



Lolz.

I'm afraid not. Our formal methodologies are applicable to inanimate objects.

Maybe during sex :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

The first thing I would do is review his report cards and see how he is doing in math. I would also pay attention to what the report card says about his ability to work independently - there usually is something about that and also group work noted in the report cards.

The second thing I would do is talk to the teacher. He may be struggling or he may be having problems. 

If it's a learning issue I would take it seriously and get him tested or get him a tutor. Speaking from experience, when I was a kid I could write but I "couldn't math" lol. I needed a tutor just to get me through the ninth grade. Something just clicked in grades ten and eleven and I got it but for years I really didn't get it and somehow passed.

On the bright side, he might just be "needing" extra hand-holding because he knows that you'll give it. If that's the case then this is why talking to the teacher might come in handy. I think all too often kids act one way at home and another at school just as they know which parent will say "yes" and the other "no" to XYZ request. 

Not only would it be helpful to find out what's done differently in the classroom, it may be worth thinking about what his currency is and whether he reacts better to the carrot or the stick method in getting him to try harder on his own. 

The "carrot" method works best for our son. If he knows that doing A and B will lead to a rewarding "C" then he'll do it. It could be Xbox time, a dessert, money, an outing, or just praise but if he finds it rewarding, it's motivation in itself. 

We only tend to bring out the stick when it comes to behaviors we don't want to see in him. That's a time-out, grounding, no Xbox time or TV time etc. 

Since we want him to do homework, we use the carrot method, "If you do ___, you'll get/we'll go ____." because that leads to positive connotations being attached to him doing his homework. I think a stick would be counter productive here.


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## married tech (Jan 18, 2014)

> Since we want him to do homework, we use the carrot method, "If you do ___, you'll get/we'll go ____." because that leads to positive connotations being attached to him doing his homework. I think a stick would be counter productive here.


Unless he is like me when I was in school and decides the carrot offered is not big enough and that you can't make the stick hard enough either. 

Seriously I was one impossible cookie to break once I decided that something was not worth my effort.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Don't check it until he's done. If he refuses to do it, go to school with him and explain to the teacher that he's refusing and he needs to get failed on the papers he doesn't turn in. Then let the consequences come. He needs to find his own motivation (assuming it's not a learning disorder - has he been tested?).

He can afford to have zeros at this age; he can't afford them later when they matter.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I would be such a terrible parent. If he pretended not to know 2 + 0, I'd be telling him him if he doesn't even TRY to do his homework, he gets no freaking XBox or tv or sports or playtime or anything else until he does it. And I'd mean it.

If he still doesn't, yep, I'd let him take the zeros and fail and be held back a grade until he chooses to TRY.

I have no patience for "refuse to try" and "act dumb so dad will do it for me" and "you have to sit on me to get me to do anything because I won't pay attention but I will happily play video games all day long."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Pretty much.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

norajane said:


> I would be such a terrible parent. If he pretended not to know 2 + 0, I'd be telling him him if he doesn't even TRY to do his homework, he gets no freaking XBox or tv or sports or playtime or anything else until he does it. And I'd mean it.
> 
> If he still doesn't, yep, I'd let him take the zeros and fail and be held back a grade until he chooses to TRY.
> 
> I have no patience for "refuse to try" and "act dumb so dad will do it for me" and "you have to sit on me to get me to do anything because I won't pay attention but I will happily play video games all day long."


+1 on this. Why does he behave that way? Because you enable him to. If he's not going to put in an effort, why should you?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skate Daddy 9 (Sep 19, 2011)

It sounds like you are a helicopter parent. You need to let him fail and feel the consequence of failing. Then set some rules and expectations with him letting him know that his grades are his to own and that it is no longer your problem, if he is stuck he can come to you for help. He is totally working you, he knows if he sits there long enough you will do it for him. Smart kid.


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## MyHappyPlace (Aug 11, 2013)

I'm thinking attention/lazy. I have two kids who are complete opposites, but are being raised differently also.

My 9 year old is being raised by my parents who are old and tired of parenting but refuse to give him up. He REFUSES to do his homework for them. Why? Both reasons above. He is supposed to read a chapter out of a book and write a 3-5 sentence summary every day. After enough fighting and throwing of things, he will read the chapter, but won't write the summary. So my mother's great plan is to have him tell her the summary, she writes what he says, and he copies it. She also edits it if she doesn't think it sounds right. Math work usually starts with thrown/snapped pencils, lots of yelling, and then her giving him the answers. When I'm present, he doesn't dare put on a show like that! Anyway, this is about the extent of time spent WITH him. The rest of his existence consists of him playing on the computer while my parents do whatever they do and catering to his food/drink needs. The child does NOTHING for himself! 

Then there is my daughter. She is 5 and LOVES homework. She is sent home a packet every Monday for the whole week that is due Friday. She comes home and finishes it by herself Monday afternoon. She only brings it to me so I can praise her on her handwriting or check her spelling. Usually about 5 sheets. She then asks her teacher for more work or has me print out worksheets from the internet. As a kindergartner, she reads chapter books and is doing subtraction. She is excited to learn and has made it a personal goal of hers to pass her older brother in math by the end of summer.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

m0nk said:


> Students should spend roughly an hour a night on homework for each class or subject in the upper levels.


Seriously?

My kid spends 8-10 hours a day at school in 5-6 classes.

So after an 8-10 hour day she should spend another 5-6 hours with homework?
That's is the kind of education that causes kids to hate school

I wouldn't allow it if the school demanded it.

She spends an hour or two or none a night doing homework depending on what she has going on.

She's gotten straight A's her entire school career (7th grade now)


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

tacoma said:


> Seriously?
> 
> My kid spends 8-10 hours a day at school in 5-6 classes.
> 
> ...


Really? up to 10 hours of instruction? Is that public or private? Just curious... my kid is in high school and does 7.5 hours of instruction (half -hour lunch), four classes per semester/8 classes per year. (I am not a fan of that schedule, BTW) And usually about 1.5 hours of homework. Although she drags it out with MANY breaks as she is a huge procrastinator.

I agree an hour per subject is too much. Kids need free time - time to imagine and daydream and THINK and play.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

tacoma said:


> She's gotten straight A's her entire school career (7th grade now)


m0nk DID say upper levels. What he describes is typical of high school.


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## Happyfamily (Apr 15, 2014)

Jadiel said:


> I cannot stand the simple lack of trying.


Got you wrapped around his finger. If I get attitude, I call the iron hammer. You want your father in here to see this? Oh, hey - he's working on something important but I'll just interrupt him to watch his son act like a baby. The choice is all yours buster.


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## Jadiel (Oct 10, 2012)

This is so different from when I was a kid. I guess everyone says that. For instance, sure, homework is not enjoyable, or whatever. When I was a kid, no one cared. I was raised with a big "because I said so" attitude. Nintendo is more fun than homework? Tough ****. Do your homework because I said so. (this also applies to my other thread where I talk about no one listening to me so I refuse to help them a lot of times). 

A lot of this IS our fault as parents. We've slowly let him become addicted to the xbox and computer. We've let him be lazy. He had a rough childhood (first 5 years or so) so we started sort of taking pity on him. 

His grades have always been pretty decent, so we let a lot of stuff slide too. But this year, weve finally seen a decline. First quarter was awesome, second quarter he dropped a bit, this most recent he got a few grades in the 70s!

And recently, he had a book report that he just totally checked out on. Sit down and read! But no, he'll just sit there and be like "I cant!" So we of course sat down with him and took turns reading him chapters. At the end, we're helping with the report, and he's just totally spaced out. "So what's the story about, Jeffrey?"

"I dunno."

"We JUST READ THIS STORY. What's the main characters name?"

"I dunno."

<Sigh> "Ok, is it John?"

"No, its Dirk." 

"Good, good! Who is dirk? <blank look> Is he a navy seal?"

"No. He's a Dark Lord from another dimension."

"Good! What happens to Dirk?"

"I dunno."

"Ok...does he kill all his enemies and take over the world?"

"No...."

So several hours later we finally finish this damn thing. 

Anyway.......So we've dropped the hammer and put away the xbox and unplugged the computer for everyone (we just hooked it back up today). Putting a schedule on him for homework time, flute practice, chores, and allowing a little "screen time" every day, but the big "screen times" like playing a long extended game online with his friends is for weekends only. Scheduling more specific time for personal grooming (shower, teeth, etc...). Trying to maintain some sensitivity as it sucks having your world turned upside down, but also being firm. 

So far he seems to be doing pretty well, but its only been a week. He's got a report due on a president this week (one he shares a name with so its a little interesting!).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Thank goodness! What I did was allow DD 30 minutes of her choice of electronics during school nights and 1 hour on weekends, up til about 6th grade, I think. But ONLY after the homework was done, checked, and put in the bag for tomorrow. Then as she got older, the amount went up. She always had plenty of books around for the "I'm bored" times. And I offered to do her chores for her (make her bed, etc.) IF she sat there and read to me while I did it. Got her to love reading. Now she reads textbooks for fun.

Anyway, as long as you explain the 30-minute rule or whatever you have, and stick to it, it will become part of life and he'll be much better off.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Jadiel said:


> Anyway.......So we've dropped the hammer and put away the xbox and unplugged the computer for everyone (we just hooked it back up today). Putting a schedule on him for homework time, flute practice, chores, and allowing a little "screen time" every day, but the big "screen times" like playing a long extended game online with his friends is for weekends only. Scheduling more specific time for personal grooming (shower, teeth, etc...). Trying to maintain some sensitivity as it sucks having your world turned upside down, but also being firm.
> 
> So far he seems to be doing pretty well, but its only been a week. He's got a report due on a president this week (one he shares a name with so its a little interesting!).


Good job, and great start! 

He's going to have to make his way in the world where "I don't want to!" and "I can't (which is really more of a 'I don't want to!'" will make him homeless, so better to learn good habits now than end up as a jobless, educationless, video-game playing misfit when he's an adult.

Also, if he ever wants to play on a school sports team, or be on the school paper or yearbook or whatever, he's going to have to keep his grades up or they won't let him play on the team.


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## Happyfamily (Apr 15, 2014)

Jadiel said:


> So we've dropped the hammer.


:smthumbup:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

New article about why you shouldn't help with homework...
Why you shouldn't help your kids with their homework - Moms - TODAY.com


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## Happyfamily (Apr 15, 2014)

turnera said:


> New article about why you shouldn't help with homework...
> Why you shouldn't help your kids with their homework - Moms - TODAY.com


Yes. The article makes the point that the best "help" is making sure they DO their homework. ...or else


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The best thing about Authoritative Parenting is that you take the emotion out so they can't argue it with you. "Sure, you can decide to not do your homework. It's your choice. And it is my choice then, as your parent, to give you the consequence for not doing your homework. The worse it gets, the worse your consequence will be. That's my job as your parent - to help you make the right decisions."


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