# husband of 18 years hides talking to old high school flame behind my back



## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Hi all, first post, need to share my story. 

Let me start by saying I know my husband didn't physically cheat on me, or even have an "all out" emotional affair. But he did have an EA of some sorts. Not nearly as terrible as many stories I have read here (I'm sorry), but I find myself identifying with the feelings others post, so it has triggered a similar emotional reaction on my side. 

I'm going to try to be as succinct as I can, but it's tough b/c the story is long and complicated. 

In a nutshell, I found out that my husband talked to his old high school flame by phone (once prior to our marriage and then once again after being together 18+ years). They also shared private emails. I had given him permission to be friends with her on facebook after he pleaded with me to allow it, saying he didn't want to hurt her feelings, and at this point she was "just a good old friend". I thought I was being too controlling/jealous, so I relented. 

Shortly after they became friends, she brought up the chat feature; he called me into the room to witness the conversation b/c he said he didn't want to hide anything from me. She was flirtatious with him "have I really changed that much?" and then at the very end of the conversation said "I won't forget our promise now and forever". WTF? Of course that sent me over the edge, but my husband said he had no clue what she was talking about, it had to be some old memory she had from their highschool days. He promised me he would not talk to her on chat (we turned off the feature) and would let me know if any inappropriate contact from her happened. I wasn't comfortable with it, but since he called me in the room to witness their conversation, I felt like he was being super forward and honest with me. I trusted him and again told myself I was being over jealous. He promised me no contact other than facebook. 

Well, I find out now (a few years later) that after that conversation, they exchanged private emails and via that exchanged phone numbers. He says she called him, they only talked once. He said he wanted to find out about her x-husband, whom she had married after breaking up with my husband (he says it was a mutual break up, and he could have gotten her back if he wanted her, b/c he had actually done so once prior - resulting in her calling off the engagement). He was happy to hear he turned out to be a jerk. They talked about her new fiance, and he said he was really happy for her b/c she seemed happy. He said he had a "compulsion" to speak with her, and he got "closure" afterwards - like he was happy and could put it behind him. 

It would be one thing if he needed to call and get closure before getting married to me. However, he actually already had that chance - he admits to me now he called her about a year before we got married to tell her "I've found the one, I'm good", and she was happy for him. But why, why did he have to call and talk to her AGAIN, after 18 years of building a life with me? Why would he risk it all? Note that also before she got married the first time, she called him to tell him. So, it appears they have this bond between them that they developed in high school, where they call each other before they get married/remarried. He said they went through rough times together (difficult family situations) as teenagers (both got kicked out of their houses), and it created a bond b/c they share that - but "she is just a good friend". It hurts me so to know he has an emotional bond like this with another woman, one that has lasted over 30 years. 

It doesn't sound like much to be upset about, but it has rocked me to the core. We had a "pact" between us - we always said that if one of us cheated on the other, it would be OVER - there would be no chance of reconciliation, no forgiving. That pact allowed me to be 100% vulnerable to him, to trust him 100%. My heart was completely open to him, and he stabbed me straight in it. I am so incredibly hurt.

My belief in true love has been destroyed. I now do not think pure love is possible. We were "that couple" that everyone looked up to, admired. We held ourselves to a higher standard. We thought our relationship was nearly perfect. We talked about how lucky we were to have found each other. Yes, we talked like this even 18 years into being married. We were still so very much in love. And now, my belief in him has been shattered. I never thought he would hide something this big from me, never in a million years did I think he would do something like this. Never did I think he would sneak around behind my back. I hate my life.

I feel like 30 years went by between he and this old flame - yet it was never really resolved or "over". I feel like I gave him 100% of my heart, but I didn't get all of his. If he had loved me with ALL of his heart, he never would have WANTED to talk to her, let alone sneak around behind my back to do it. 

He knew I didn't want them to have any contact beyond facebook - I had specifically asked him to not do so. Yet he disrespected my feelings and hurt me anyways. That isn't true love. 

I believed in him. I had him so high on pedestal. He has always been my "good man" who took care of me so well through the years. Now I don't know who he really is. He hid this from me, and I never in a million years thought he would do anything like this. 
*
Will I ever trust again? Should I? * I don’t want to let my guard down. I don’t want to trust him again. He was such a great pretender. Fooled me completely. I feel like such a damn fool. I don’t want to ever be hurt like this again. I let myself be vulnerable to him, and he stabbed me in the heart. 

At the same time, I don't want to be the pretender, pretending all is ok between us, when it is not. I am so hurt, so angry - I feel like could explode. Being angry is so NOT me. 

It's been a week and a half since I found out about their phone conversation. At some points I feel like I'm starting to reconnect with him, then I remember finding her phone number in his cell phone, and I am angry and hurt all over again. I'm so afraid of trusting him again. 

He took away three things from me:

1) My belief in true love.
2) Feeling loved unconditionally by another.
3) Being able to trust another human being 100%. 

Thank you for reading my story. Again, I know he didn't cheat physically on me (we live states away from the old girlfriend, plus I do feel in my heart that has not happened). However I am hurt to the core emotionally, and I don't know how to move forward. He is very repentant, willing to go to counseling, etc., etc., which I guess we should do.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

You have every right to your feelings. What he did was a terrible betrayal to you and your marriage. He hid a long term relationship with another woman from you. He had conversations with her, when he should have been investing that energy into you. 

Would he share the emails with you now? If not, I would be hesitant to even begin counselling because he is still protecting their relationship. You may not call it a full on emotional affair, it's still devastating. 

He has taken any steps to prove his remorse? Has he hand written her a no contact letter for you to send by certified mail. 

Do you want to forgive him? Or, do you think maybe it's too much for you to bear?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Does he know what you have found?

Have you told him what you have told us?


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

I just want to make sure I have this correct. He is married to YOU for the past 18 years, not HER. He is 1000 % wrong here. IMO, I would get right in his face, tell him to make a choice between your 18 year marriage or some person who is from some distant past. He needs to break all ties and contact with this woman ASAP, including an NC letter.

I know you are very hurt right now, but for the moment you need to get pissed and confront him and have him end this NOW ! I would contact her as well if I was you and tell her bluntly to stop contacting YOUR husband ! Good Luck !


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

4getmenot said:


> Hi all, first post, need to share my story.
> 
> Let me start by saying I know my husband didn't physically cheat on me, or even have an "all out" emotional affair.
> 
> ...


You really don't know if they only talked once or if they had a physical affair. You found her phone number on his phone, he told you he only talked to her once. Also, they shared private emails. If the messages were deleted, you really don't know what was said. For all you know, he could have activated and deactivated chat features on the phone or on the Internet through any number of ways that would not show up on a phone bill. You have no way of really knowing the truth except for what he tells you.

I know many people who live states away and I see them all the time. I travel by car or plane or train. Is that not possible for your husband or his long lost love from high school who have a promise to each other "forever"?

This much is obvious - he has a secret promise with her that apparently is more important to him than any vows or "pact" that he made with you. He is lying to you about "not remembering" their "forever" promise. I guarantee you that they spoke to each other about it.

I don't think what you "feel in your heart" is a good indicator of whether or not he cheated on you. The feeling "in your heart" has not helped you uncover this in any way.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOUR HUSBAND CHEATED ON YOU PHYSICALLY OR HAD AN ALL-OUT EMOTIONAL AFFAIR OR ONLY TALKED TO HER ONCE. And neither do you.

Cheaters are liars. Your husband is a liar. At least in relation to this woman. Only believe what is independently verifiable or what is supported by his actions.

You're right, it doesn't sound that bad compared to most stories here, but obviously it bothers you a great deal, moreso than many betrayed spouses who had a partner engage in months or years-long physical and emotional affairs. 

Why don't you ask him to take a polygraph to prove he only talked to her once? 

Have him block her on Facebook and remove her from his phone contacts. Get him to change his mobile number and get a new email address.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Aunt Ava said:


> You have every right to your feelings. What he did was a terrible betrayal to you and your marriage. He hid a long term relationship with another woman from you. He had conversations with her, when he should have been investing that energy into you.


Thank you. The validation of my feelings is so very helpful. 



Aunt Ava said:


> Would he share the emails with you now? If not, I would be hesitant to even begin counselling because he is still protecting their relationship. You may not call it a full on emotional affair, it's still devastating.


He has given me full access to his email accounts, and I spent an entire day searching every single file on his computer. I also have full access to his phone. He said he knows he has to be an open book now, that he lost any rights to privacy after doing this to me. He let me deactivate his fb account, and I have changed the email and password for the account. I have blocked her email from his work email, and blocked her phone number from being received by his phone. So, as far as I can tell, I have done all I can to keep her from contacting him again, although there are ways, I'm sure, if someone were motivated enough. He swears they did not communicate since that call one year before we married; that facebook reconnected them after 18 years. 



Aunt Ava said:


> He has taken any steps to prove his remorse? Has he hand written her a no contact letter for you to send by certified mail.


Can you explain the no contact letter? 

He has been extremely remorseful. Told me he never had any intention of rekindling anything with her, just felt that he had to talk to her. He says he justified it as ok in his mind by thinking that, and honestly never thought he would get "caught". He didn't think I'd ever find out, so he didn't feel he was hurting me. Now that he sees how incredibly hurt I am, he realizes how wrong it was to even have this supposedly "innocent" conversation. He says his love and commitment to me never waivered (hard to me to feel that, given his betrayal). He says he has come a long way over the past 1.5 weeks in seeing how damaging what he did was, that he took me for granted, and he so fears he may have destroyed the life we built together. He said initially when I discovered her phone number, his thought was "Uh oh. I'm gonna pay for this today, but tonight we'll have some great makeup sex." Now, though, seeing that I am not just forgiving and getting over it, he is seeing exactly what he has done. He says "I'll spend the rest of my life trying to make this up to you, if you'll let me." Very remorseful, working hard on talking, etc - so that all goes a long ways. 



Aunt Ava said:


> Do you want to forgive him? Or, do you think maybe it's too much for you to bear?


I do, and I don't. I want to forgive him, b/c I want my old life back - if that's even possible. I was so incredibly happy and in love, even 18 years later. We will have a very nice long talk, I'll feel my love for him (definitely still love him), and it will feel so good. And then a few hours later I'll remember that he betrayed my trust, and I tell myself not to trust him again, don't be a fool. I keep going back and forth between these feelings; I am extremely torn. 

For our 18th anniversary 2 weeks ago (just a few days prior to me finding her number), he got up early, took a picture of our wedding photo with his iphone, sent it to his email, then uploaded it to his facebook and tagged me, wishing me a happy anniversary and sharing with everyone how he met his soul mate and best friend, etc. And 1.5 years ago I was diagnosed with bilateral breast cancer at the age of 43. I had to go through a bilateral mastectomy, radiation, and chemo. It has been a horrific past year and a half, but he has been there for me without waiver over that time. After my mastectomies, I had drains for about 10 days. We had to strip the drain tubes 4 to 5 times a day, which is pretty gross - and he had to help me b/c my arms hurt trying to do it. I remember specifically apologizing to him that he had to do this for me, that I knew it was gross. He said "I like doing this for you." I'm like, what??? How can you like doing this? And he replied "I like taking care of you." He has gone to all my major appointments with me, listened to me talk nonstop about my worries about recurrence and helped me make so many major treatment decisions. He took such good care of me during chemo - came to every session and did this cold cap treatment thing for me where every 20 minutes he had to change a cold cap on my head to keep me from losing my hair (it worked). It was an exhausting, 8 hour day of chemo and cold cap changes, and he was there every minute of it for me. He didn't want anyone else to do it (like a friend), b/c it made him feel good to be doing "something" to help me - in a situation where we felt we had little control since cancer had taken over our lives. When I was sick after chemo, he would work all day, then go and do all the grocery shopping after work, get all of my scripts, and basically do whatever he could to try to make life better for me so I could just focus on healing. When I was anxious during radiation, and having trouble learning how to do a breathing technique they required me to do do prevent the rads from hitting my heart, he laid down with me on the floor and helped me practice my breathing technique. 

He has been so incredibly good to me over our lives. This man loves me, more than anyone has ever loved me, except for my mother. It was as close to unconditional love as you could imagine. And I felt the same way about him. I had complete, 100% unbelievable trust in him. I knew he told me little white lies about "guy stuff", which I didn't like when I found out, but it was nothing serious. I never thought, in a million years, that he would lie about something serious and sneak around behind my back, even if it was just so he could make one phone call to "an old friend". I guess I had him up so high on a pedestal that learning about this makes it all the more devastating.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Most people usually "dont" have intentions of getting involved with someone outside their marriage and that is where the danger lies. 

It can sneak up on them...a quick phone catchup leads to more and then it's a full on attachment. There are quite a few posters here who can testify to how quickly it can blow up especially with a old friend from the past. 

This is very painful for you because you trusted him, which we want in our marriages. It's the cornerstone of that relationship. 

How about switching your thinking--- your so focused on HOW he loved you. How your cup was overflowing with the love he poured into your life but now it's lowering because of this act. This is when you fill that cup with self love. You have got to go inward and self nurture now. 

Yes you have been knocked for a loop. He showed a side of his nature that you didn't expect.

Who is this man?? How was he capable of secrets and deceit? How could he jeopardize our marriage and our _pact_ throwing caution to the wind???? I thought I knew him!!!!!

You can't have your old life back.....but that doesn't mean it can't be even better?


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> Told me he never had any intention of rekindling anything with her, just felt that he had to talk to her.


Isn't that the definition of rekindling? Having the urge to reconnect with someone from the past? And given their history, I doubt he would just want to say hi and leave it at that.



4getmenot said:


> He says he justified it as ok in his mind by thinking that, and honestly never thought he would get "caught". He didn't think I'd ever find out, so he didn't feel he was hurting me.


Wow, he has really allowed you to see how a cheater thinks, huh? 



4getmenot said:


> Now that he sees how incredibly hurt I am, he realizes how wrong it was to even have this supposedly "innocent" conversation.


He already said he justified it in his head it was ok because he would never get caught. Now that he is caught, he has "seen the light"?. :scratchhead:




4getmenot said:


> He said initially when I discovered her phone number, his thought was "Uh oh. I'm gonna pay for this today, but tonight we'll have some great makeup sex."


Wow, already had a plan to cover his tracks and told you about it. Listen to you rant, distract you with sex, and a win win for him. 



4getmenot said:


> Now, though, seeing that I am not just forgiving and getting over it, he is seeing exactly what he has done. He says "I'll spend the rest of my life trying to make this up to you, if you'll let me.".


He knew what he was doing before you refused to sweep it under the rug. I would be very careful with him. 

Has he already been reading this board?


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

chapparal said:


> Does he know what you have found?



Yes, he knows. I confronted him 1.5 weeks ago. That is when I found her phone number listed cryptically by part of her maiden name in his old phone. There is more to the story. In the fall I had used his iphone to check my facebook - thought it was my account and clicked on a private fb message. When I did I saw a fb message exchange between them. She said her hubby was uncomfortable with a comment my husband made on her page - and requested she unfriend him. She again made the comment about not forgetting their promise to each other "now and forever". Ugggh, heart breaks every time I write that.

I was floored by this, didn't know what he wrote on her page (still don't, can't find it b/c she unfriended him - he says it was something very benign). So I tested him - wanted to make sure there was nothing going on b/c that message was so cryptic. A story came on tv about fb causing relationship problems, so I asked him if he had been in contact with her recently. He denied any recent contact...yet she had just sent him that message (and he replied) a few days earlier. He said they hadn't talked on fb for "many months", and in fact weren't even friends any more (he's good at telling "partial" truths, which makes him even more believable). So I confronted him and said let's just open up your facebook account together and see. 

So he was pretty pissed but we did, and it showed that he had lied about the contact being recent. He downplayed it as lying, saying something like he didn't remember how long ago it was they talked. Come on. She just unfriended him 4 days ago. Lies. 

And as we were looked at the messages (simultaneously on our computers in the same room), the message "poof" disappeared. I was like where did it go? And he had deleted it, right in the same room with me! He was pissed, obviously, and that just pissed me off more. I asked him if he had any other contact with her - private email exchanges, telephone, texts, etc - ANYTHING - and he denied anything other than the facebook messages I saw and the occasional posts on each other's walls. He became really defensive and said "why are you doing this?!?" - making me feel bad for questioning him. I want to bad mouth him so bad right now, trying to hold back the angry words. It is not easy.

Soooo...that episode of him lying to me put the first huge seeds of doubt in my head. I couldn't help it, and felt guilty, but I started snooping. (he's aware of all of this now) I would check his work email, facebook activity, phone activity. I found no current communication between them; did find one old private email he had sent her from his work account back in 2010 (his sent mail is archived). He had sent it to her gmail acct, saying he was sorry for something he wrote on her wall, that he'd never hurt her intentionally. That's something he always said to me, too. God it hurts. When I asked him what he was apologizing to her about, he said it was because he remembered it was the date of her first marriage (for real? Says he remembered it b/c it was on his Dad's birthday). He was trying to congratulate her in some weird way of being free of her ex-husband. uggh. 

Even so, I told myself that he had been such a good man, that maybe it was some kind of little "fantasy" in his head, and he had to get it out of his system. I slowed down my snooping, I didn't like doing it, but I was trying to prove that there was nothing more going on so I could trust him fully again. I was truly getting over it when last week he gave me his old phone to use as an alarm one morning. After the alarm went off, I saw the "contacts" button, and thought....hhhhmmmm...didn't check the old phone...and there her name was in his directory (as I said, cryptically hidden). 



chapparal said:


> Have you told him what you have told us?


No. I've been wondering if that is therapeutic or damaging to share. I hate that I now have my own "secrets". Never, ever did I hide anything from him before. I am now becoming very protective of myself.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Ok, you are OK to feel this way....it's normal. 

Now that you have explained more of the story, I see huge red flags in his behavior at the effort he is putting in to cultivating this emotional affair and in fact would call it quite professional. 

Newbies don't already think of ways to camouflage numbers and shows he quickly violated the boundaries of your marriage. 

I agree with you on the snooping it's a horrible feeling and I got to the point where it just felt like I was a long tailed cat in a room full of rockers. Every "safeguard" that I put in place...another way for him to go around it could be put up. He never did that I know of but really, they can get burner phones, a million secret emails, chat from work etc.... it just never ends. 

I gave up the spying because I didn't want to put my energy into that. If he wants to cheat he will find a way and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. 

I find it therapeutic to share....have you thought about counseling for yourself? Just to have a place to vent?


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

barbados said:


> I just want to make sure I have this correct. He is married to YOU for the past 18 years, not HER. He is 1000 % wrong here. IMO, I would get right in his face, tell him to make a choice between your 18 year marriage or some person who is from some distant past. He needs to break all ties and contact with this woman ASAP, including an NC letter.
> 
> I know you are very hurt right now, but for the moment you need to get pissed and confront him and have him end this NOW ! I would contact her as well if I was you and tell her bluntly to stop contacting YOUR husband ! Good Luck !


Thank you for the support!!! I have indeed confronted him multiple times over the past 1.5 weeks...he's said he never really compared the two of us before, but now that he puts them up side by side, he sees what he felt for her was NOTHING compared to what he feels for me. He said he knows if she ever contacts him again, he has to come straight to me and tell me - b/c he knows if he hides anything like this again, he will lose me for sure. And that is absolutely true. I'm having a hard enough time giving him this "second chance" - no way would he get a 3rd. I'm going to re-emphasize that to him today. 

Still not sure about this NC letter. 

As far as I know, all contact is broken off from both sides. I am soooooo tempted to contact her, but honestly, I'm afraid it will fuel her fire to talk to him. I'm hoping it is completely over forever now. Wouldn't bringing the subject up to her make things worse - since they no longer are in touch (as far as I know)? I've told my husband I am very, very tempted to contact her new husband - I want her to hurt like I am. Very immature, emotional reaction - so I'm not acting on it. But oh god do I fantasize about it. However, I'm afraid contacting either of them would make the issue even bigger than it is.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> This much is obvious - he has a secret promise with her that apparently is more important to him than any vows or "pact" that he made with you. He is lying to you about "not remembering" their "forever" promise. I guarantee you that they spoke to each other about it.
> 
> I don't think what you "feel in your heart" is a good indicator of whether or not he cheated on you. The feeling "in your heart" has not helped you uncover this in any way.
> 
> ...


Sadly, I have to admit you are correct. I have no proof of what he says did or didn't happen. And obviously my gut was wrong and blind to the betrayal I do know about now. 



Will_Kane said:


> Why don't you ask him to take a polygraph to prove he only talked to her once?


He actually brought this idea up and wants to take a polygraph. He contacted a local firm and had them send him information. He really wants to take the test. I just wasn't sure how reliable they really are and thus if it would really ease my doubts. I will rethink this. If anyone has any thoughts on the value of this or concerns of why I should/shouldn't have him do the test, please share. 



Will_Kane said:


> Have him block her on Facebook and remove her from his phone contacts. Get him to change his mobile number and get a new email address.


I did block her on Facebook already and took his page down. He cannot change his mobile phone number and email address b/c they are corporate accounts for his job.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

daggeredheart said:


> Most people usually "dont" have intentions of getting involved with someone outside their marriage and that is where the danger lies.
> 
> It can sneak up on them...a quick phone catchup leads to more and then it's a full on attachment. There are quite a few posters here who can testify to how quickly it can blow up especially with a old friend from the past.


So true. 



daggeredheart said:


> This is very painful for you because you trusted him, which we want in our marriages. It's the cornerstone of that relationship.


Yep. More than I trusted anyone ever in my life before. 



daggeredheart said:


> How about switching your thinking--- your so focused on HOW he loved you. How your cup was overflowing with the love he poured into your life but now it's lowering because of this act. This is when you fill that cup with self love. You have got to go inward and self nurture now.


Thinking about that - thank you for that insight. I'm trying to do more things with friends, etc., to nurture other parts of my life. I wonder if perhaps I was too connected to him. I guess that's what made it feel so good. I really felt like we were "one"...and now my "fairy tale" dream is over. If I couldn't have it with him, who could I? 



daggeredheart said:


> Yes you have been knocked for a loop. He showed a side of his nature that you didn't expect.
> 
> Who is this man?? How was he capable of secrets and deceit? How could he jeopardize our marriage and our _pact_ throwing caution to the wind???? I thought I knew him!!!!!
> 
> You can't have your old life back.....but that doesn't mean it can't be even better?


You are spot on to how I feel. So I guess you are saying the "new, changed life" could actually be even better. It's hard to see that right now, but thank you for offering hope.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

SaltInWound said:


> He already said he justified it in his head it was ok because he would never get caught. Now that he is caught, he has "seen the light"?. :scratchhead:


Apparently...:scratchhead:





SaltInWound said:


> Wow, already had a plan to cover his tracks and told you about it. Listen to you rant, distract you with sex, and a win win for him.


Yikes. Never thought of it in that way. 




SaltInWound said:


> He knew what he was doing before you refused to sweep it under the rug. I would be very careful with him.
> 
> Has he already been reading this board?


No, he has no clue about this board. I thought maybe I should let him read this as a way to help him understand me even farther - but now you are saying "be careful". What do you mean by that, other than don't trust him and keep watching him closely?


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## Lazarus (Jan 17, 2011)

Sorry you are here. Infidelity, betrayal and discovering your mate is an outright liar is the most traumatic experience ever. 

You won't get your old life back. It's gone. The 100% trust is gone. Your dreams of trusting everything your husband said as being right are now fraught with doubt. 

He knew contacting the old flame was highly likely to hurt and harm you and that is why he kept it from you. Secrets, first, then the lies. 

You cannot believe a word that comes out of your husband's lying mouth. There will be more to this story. 

You need to think about flushing out the truth for yourself and contact this woman. You need to verify and here the other side of the story. 

What you have to do is be very careful and verify everything he says because you now know he is capable of lying to you. 

He has a torch for this woman. To phone her only once but keep her number on his mobile is utter rubbish. Don't believe it for one minute.

Consider the worst has happened. Dirty talk, secret mobiles etc.

You have a choice. 

Your choice is to decide do you want to change your existing situation and your attitude towards your man so that you can look to forming a new relationship with him, or do you want to have a new relationship with a new person way forward in the future. 

Think about that for a while and envisage the consequences of both situations. 

Don't do anything that means you are acting on fear. Keeping your husband because you fear the future is not the way forward.

You are already thinking of all the good things but if you want to make your marriage work and repair it he has to know how bad and how close he is to losing you. He has to work darn hard to win you back. 

The comment about having sex with you after a rant shows how lightly he sees the event. 

A cheater's words are cheap. 

Actions are what you must focus on. His words have to marry his actions, otherwise the task ahead is going to be very difficult.

Think about how would you cope if your were not afraid of the future. Fear of what is out there is a big issue for some people and it makes a person give in easily, too easily. Make sure he knows the gravity of the situation and that you are no push over or that his actions can be rug swept and all is just fine. No. It is not fine to be chatting on the mobile to an old flame. 

Once you have got that idea on the fear issue sorted, he really has to prove to you that he is worthy of still being your husband. 

You want a man, not a lothario.

Your new life will be full of heartache, peaks and troughs and flash backs to the betrayal. It will never, ever be the same.

How you deal with this and how he works hard to win you back will be key.
,
If you get over it and forgive him easily, you will find yourself back in the same situation again. 

Value your self. Make him feel he is ever so grateful that you found it in your heart to give him a second chance. It may be that you cannot find it in your heart to give him a second chance. Your choice. 

The loss of trust will be a big issue to overcome. Rebuild may need years and it will never be the same again.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

4getmenot said:


> He cannot change his mobile phone number and email address b/c they are corporate accounts for his job.


Corporations CAN change phone numbers and email addresses for their employees. Maybe it is extra work, maybe it is inconvenient, maybe it makes him look bad, but it CAN be done.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> No, he has no clue about this board. *I thought maybe I should let him read this as a way to help him understand me even farther* - but now you are saying "be careful". What do you mean by that, other than don't trust him and keep watching him closely?


NO! Don't show him this board or even let on that you even read it! You are getting advice on how to catch him and hopefully bust this up. If he reads it, then he will learn every step of your sleuthing and be 2 steps ahead of you. 

I said be careful, because he has already being sneaky and lying. I am sure there is so much more you don't know, but my thing is that he is telling you how he is rationalizing this in his head.....his plan, and I feel like he is doing this to throw you off.....make you more trusting. Just my thoughts. I am married (almost 22 years) and just like you, I had so much trust in him that the excuses he gave me were believable, because he was using "half truths" and just like your husband, he gave me a lot of "couple months" to explain how long certain things had been going on recently. I just triggered really bad when I read that in your post, as I have not really read that in anyone else's story.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

daggeredheart said:


> Ok, you are OK to feel this way....it's normal.
> 
> Now that you have explained more of the story, I see huge red flags in his behavior at the effort he is putting in to cultivating this emotional affair and in fact would call it quite professional.
> 
> Newbies don't already think of ways to camouflage numbers and shows he quickly violated the boundaries of your marriage.


That's scary to think of it like that. He said he put her in his contacts so that he would know if she ever called him again...so he wouldn't answer.  He is quick to point out to me that I had full access of his fb account at all times and could check on him at any time. This is true...but all that means is he wouldn't share anything too bad on that account.

I will share one thing I found - I snooped his page way back, saw a long conversation with him and another male friend. They were talking about marriage (the other guy was jaded), and my hubby was talking about how lucky he was to find me, and that I ever died, he didn't think he could remarry, b/c no one could replace me. Hubby had no idea I would see that conversation - and it was several years ago - I've been holding onto that comment b/c it has made me feel like maybe that is truly how he feels about me. Thoughts? 



daggeredheart said:


> I agree with you on the snooping it's a horrible feeling and I got to the point where it just felt like I was a long tailed cat in a room full of rockers. Every "safeguard" that I put in place...another way for him to go around it could be put up. He never did that I know of but really, they can get burner phones, a million secret emails, chat from work etc.... it just never ends.
> 
> I gave up the spying because I didn't want to put my energy into that. If he wants to cheat he will find a way and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it.


Exactly my thoughts. Especially now. If he is going to do something, he will no matter how much I snoop. He now will be extremely good at covering his tracks, so there is not any point in snooping now.



daggeredheart said:


> I find it therapeutic to share....have you thought about counseling for yourself? Just to have a place to vent?


I have been thinking about marriage counseling, but counseling for just myself is yes probably a very good idea. I will pursue it. I was seeing someone last fall when I discovered the first lie. I have a lot of body image issue due to my bilateral mastectomies, so I thought maybe I was projecting my insecurities on the relationship and was over reacting. I need to stop blaming myself and feeling like I might not be justified in my feelings.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> He cannot change his mobile phone number and email address b/c they are corporate accounts for his job.


Think of it this way. Your husband is a liar. He will lie about everything. You said he uses half truths. He preys on your innocence and trust that he is telling the truth. I mean, why would you not believe him about something he tells you about work? Why would he have a reason to lie about that? I've been there....really. I was so gullible. You need to stop thinking that way. Again, think half truths. So, the question is.......Can the e-mail and phone number not be changed because the company refuses change them, or is it because your husband is not willing to ask.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Lazarus said:


> Sorry you are here. Infidelity, betrayal and discovering your mate is an outright liar is the most traumatic experience ever.
> 
> You won't get your old life back. It's gone. The 100% trust is gone. Your dreams of trusting everything your husband said as being right are now fraught with doubt.
> 
> ...


Well, just had a major meltdown after reading this. He has ruined our lives. The beautiful thing we had, that I thought we had. 



Lazarus said:


> You need to think about flushing out the truth for yourself and contact this woman. You need to verify and here the other side of the story.


I don't see the point in this. I would never know if she is telling me the truth either. I have thought about contacting her new husband to see if he knows anything more than I do. I'm not so sure it's a good idea, though - couldn't it cause more harm than benefit in the long run? What would I hope to gain from talking to her? If I have any hope of rebuilding with my husband, talking to her or the new husband might make things worse for us. I know I shouldn't be afraid he is going to leave me if I make a bigger deal out of this than I already am. I know that is coming from a weak position, but I can't help feeling that way. I loved him so much, and still do love him. But it is different now. 



Lazarus said:


> What you have to do is be very careful and verify everything he says because you now know he is capable of lying to you.


True. 

ok, gotta go. He's home.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

One constant reality with these EA's is that the WS never seems to understand the devastation he/she wreaks on the marriage, on the trust of the BS.

For you, I think you need to seriously make him aware of that. He has been hiding this and doing it well for a while. He has been lying (the explanation for why he had her number masked on his old phone doesn't pass even the slightest smell test). There are red flags and serious problems that he now has to face, all of his making. "Makeup sex" isn't going to repair anything.

As to what to say about your feelings, I suggest:

- Tell him simply that he has broken your heart & you don't yet know if/how it will be mended.

- Ask him to very seriously imagine how he would feel if he discovered that you were carrying on a secret relationship with an old flame.

And then you need to find out the whole truth. He needs to come completely clean and you need to verify. You can't know how to recover if you don't know what you're recovering from. Remember that people in affairs trickle out the truth, all in the name of sparing their spouses hurt, but more truthfully because they are afraid that the truth will lead to divorce.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

4,

My wife and old college BF reconnected on FB after 30 years of marriage to me. Trust me, you are lucky that you caught on early. I was oblivious to what was going on. I just knew she was spending a lot of time with her laptop. After a month of "re-kindling" on FB her EA went directly to a motel room. The 200 miles that separated them was no barrier... they just split the difference driving to a motel on the Interstate. 

Make no mistake... your husband was dancing with the devil. He was in contact with an old GF that was giving him a little "zing" with her attention. He knew it was wrong... therefore he hid and deleted their conversations. 

Why is this problematic? Your husband is looking for attention or validation from outside the marriage. This behavior constitutes cheating. Has he acted out this kind of fantasy in the past, unknown to you? Will he pursue this kind of behavior now that he has tasted the thrill? 

Hopefully, this situation is just a one-time "shot over the bow". Regardless, I would seriously consider MC for both of you. I personally found out too late that when your marriage is impacted by life altering changes, as with your illness, MC is needed to mend seems that are not even apparent. But, can tear at the trust in a marriage months or years hence.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

I think you should contact her husband. You already know he was uncomfortable with it since he wanted her to unfriend your husband. Ask him what your husband wrote on her wall that he was upset over. He may have some details that you need to hear before moving forward.


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## lonely one (Sep 3, 2012)

RWB. That is exactly what happened to me. My husband was talking to a girl he went to high school with on FB and then they met for a weekend. We are in NC and she is in FL and they met in the middle. I don't think I will ever forgive him for this. It wasn't his first affair. He had one ten years ago. I am at a loss at what to do. 19 years of marriage and two young children.


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## Yessongs72 (Dec 6, 2012)

Hi, i'm so sorry.

join the 'old flame contact = disaster club"

my WW was contacted in the spring 2012 by a significant ex from the 80's. I didn't realize the danger until too late. Now i monitor her smart phone and read little text exchanges like this one from yesterday...

[15:05] POSOM> No it wasn't  xxx xxx xxx 
[15:06] WW> I'll collect those at some point
[15:07] POSSOM> Most certainly 
[15:08] WW> 

they fvcked in November but i cant prove it (before i hacked her phone/why i hacked her phone). They are trying to arrange a February meeting - when they will 'cash in' the kisses and have sex, and get caught (PI).

Old flames are just bad news.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Once? I know much of these posts sound like overreaction, they are not.

My wife told me she hadn't talked to the OM in six months when I confronted her about the texts. I should have waited to find out more information.

I did the 180, before I knew what it was and found this website. 

Through searching I found texts going back 18 months IIRC. In other words, as long as the carrier allows you to check on line. I texted him and the only reason I believe it never went physical is because he told my wife, not knowing it was me, that nothing happened. When he realized it may be me he flipped out and asked a question she would only know. I made her answer it right in front of me.

Don't let him tell you it was only once here or there.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Lazarus said:


> You have a choice.
> 
> Your choice is to decide do you want to change your existing situation and your attitude towards your man so that you can look to forming a new relationship with him, or do you want to have a new relationship with a new person way forward in the future.
> 
> ...


Your advice was extremely helpful to me. Made me realize I am so worried about pushing him away by reacting to what he has done, that I am allowing the situation to be minimized. I've been wondering if I'm over reacting since it wasn't an all out affair (as far as I know), so the validation of this board that I am not overreacting has been invaluable. 

Had another serious talk with him today. Told him he destroyed our life together, and that I don't know if I will ever be able to forgive him, if I will ever trust him or love him in the same way again. I told him I made myself totally vulnerable to him, and what did he do with that gift? He stabbed me straight in the heart. I did not mince words this time. I told him that we told each other there would be no second chances, and he is lucky I am giving him one...if there is a future incident - it is OVER. I have never said anything like that to him - it hurt me to say it - but I realized I need to let him know here and now - I will not be treated this way, I cannot be taken for granted.

Thank you for helping me find the strength to stand up for myself better. I thought I was doing a good job, but your post made me realize I wasn't. I was too afraid of losing him. 

He continues to be very repentant, sits with his head down, willing to do lie detector if I so deem, willing to go to counseling, willing to sit and listen and talk as much as is necessary. No comments today about how he has to "take his beatings"...he's finally getting it, I think - that I'm not trying to punish him - I am hurt beyond words and he needs to know (1) I don't know that I'll ever fully recover my love for him (2) I won't stand for any future repeat events.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

SaltInWound said:


> NO! Don't show him this board or even let on that you even read it! You are getting advice on how to catch him and hopefully bust this up. If he reads it, then he will learn every step of your sleuthing and be 2 steps ahead of you.
> 
> I said be careful, because he has already being sneaky and lying. I am sure there is so much more you don't know, but my thing is that he is telling you how he is rationalizing this in his head.....his plan, and I feel like he is doing this to throw you off.....make you more trusting. Just my thoughts. I am married (almost 22 years) and just like you, I had so much trust in him that the excuses he gave me were believable, because he was using "half truths" and just like your husband, he gave me a lot of "couple months" to explain how long certain things had been going on recently. I just triggered really bad when I read that in your post, as I have not really read that in anyone else's story.


Thank you!!! I will keep this part of my life to myself - the first time I am not sharing something with him, ever. It doesn't feel right, but I did not bring this on us - he did.

I follow your reasoning. I will be very careful, cautious, and suspicious indeed. This f*cking sucks.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> For you, I think you need to seriously make him aware of that. He has been hiding this and doing it well for a while. He has been lying (the explanation for why he had her number masked on his old phone doesn't pass even the slightest smell test).


hmmmm...that does indeed give me something to ponder. <sigh>



alte Dame said:


> As to what to say about your feelings, I suggest:
> 
> - Tell him simply that he has broken your heart & you don't yet know if/how it will be mended.
> 
> ...


I did tell him the above, and he said he knows he would be furious, and isn't sure he would be able to forgive me. 

I told him he needs to tell me the whole truth, b/c I can't go forward otherwise. That is when he confessed that he had also talked to her a year prior to our marriage to tell her he "found the one". There was no point in him telling me that - I could have never known. He says there is nothing else. I have no other way of knowing if that is true or not. At least no way I am aware of. You are right on on the "trickle out the truth" comment - it took several days for me to get more and more details.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You are taking a strong stand for yourself & that is, in my opinion, the only way to do it. As Lazarus so wisely said, you can't fear the future. If you do, you will not be able to do what you need to do for yourself.

Keeping him aware of how serious this is & that you are ready and willing to walk is (sadly) important and, I think, necessary.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

RWB said:


> 4,
> 
> My wife and old college BF reconnected on FB after 30 years of marriage to me. Trust me, you are lucky that you caught on early. I was oblivious to what was going on. I just knew she was spending a lot of time with her laptop. After a month of "re-kindling" on FB her EA went directly to a motel room. The 200 miles that separated them was no barrier... they just split the difference driving to a motel on the Interstate.


I am so sorry, you truly know my pain, only even more. 



RWB said:


> Make no mistake... your husband was dancing with the devil. He was in contact with an old GF that was giving him a little "zing" with her attention. He knew it was wrong... therefore he hid and deleted their conversations.
> 
> Why is this problematic? Your husband is looking for attention or validation from outside the marriage. This behavior constitutes cheating. Has he acted out this kind of fantasy in the past, unknown to you? Will he pursue this kind of behavior now that he has tasted the thrill?


That does scare me...esp. b/c he described his actions as "dangerous" (aka "exciting" is how I interpreted it). 



RWB said:


> Hopefully, this situation is just a one-time "shot over the bow". Regardless, I would seriously consider MC for both of you. I personally found out too late that when your marriage is impacted by life altering changes, as with your illness, MC is needed to mend seems that are not even apparent. But, can tear at the trust in a marriage months or years hence.


I hope so, too. Going to get set up for MC very soon.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Aunt Ava said:


> I think you should contact her husband. You already know he was uncomfortable with it since he wanted her to unfriend your husband. Ask him what your husband wrote on her wall that he was upset over. He may have some details that you need to hear before moving forward.


I think you are right. However, I'm worried:

(1) He could have some violent tendencies I don't know about...I do not know him at all
(2) It will cause more harm to our healing b/c my husband will be so upset by this 
(3) It will get back to the OW, and then she will try re-initiating contact with my husband.

Thoughts?


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

lonely one said:


> RWB. That is exactly what happened to me. My husband was talking to a girl he went to high school with on FB and then they met for a weekend. We are in NC and she is in FL and they met in the middle. I don't think I will ever forgive him for this. It wasn't his first affair. He had one ten years ago. I am at a loss at what to do. 19 years of marriage and two young children.


OMG. You guys are really making the reality of what could happen very clear in my head. I'm so sorry lonely one. It is so devastating. 

Wondering if I really should do the lie detector test...need to research it first.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Yessongs72 said:


> Hi, i'm so sorry.
> 
> join the 'old flame contact = disaster club"
> 
> ...


 You sure do got that right. I never realized how real a threat she could be. Thought I was just over jealous. I really need to listen to my gut more.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> My wife told me she hadn't talked to the OM in six months when I confronted her about the texts. I should have waited to find out more information.


I did watch his email and phone for 4 months and found no suspicious activity during the time (just the old email to her from 2010). He was only partially tipped off b/c of me finding the facebook message - and I pretended I was "over it" so that he wouldn't think I was still suspicious. This is why I'm thinking it is more likely there was nothing going on recently. Not impossible, I know, b/c of the ability to delete messages/use other phones, etc., but less likely, I think. 



phillybeffandswiss said:


> I did the 180, before I knew what it was and found this website.


What is this? 



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Through searching I found texts going back 18 months IIRC. In other words, as long as the carrier allows you to check on line. I texted him and the only reason I believe it never went physical is because he told my wife, not knowing it was me, that nothing happened. When he realized it may be me he flipped out and asked a question she would only know. I made her answer it right in front of me.
> 
> Don't let him tell you it was only once here or there.


I'd love to search his phone records, but he has to put in a special request through work for a copy. So I'd have to get him to go along with this. I suppose I could require it from him as a condition of moving forward. It would be great to have copies of those cell phone records...to fetter out the truth more...


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> You are taking a strong stand for yourself & that is, in my opinion, the only way to do it. As Lazarus so wisely said, you can't fear the future. If you do, you will not be able to do what you need to do for yourself.
> 
> Keeping him aware of how serious this is & that you are ready and willing to walk is (sadly) important and, I think, necessary.


Thank you. That is sad. But apparently true.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> I think you are right. However, I'm worried:
> 
> (1) He could have some violent tendencies I don't know about...I do not know him at all


Your husband is still alive right? This was after saying something that made her husband force her to delete your spouse from Facebook.

This is your fear talking. 



> (2) It will cause more harm to our healing b/c my husband will be so upset by this


You are here asking for advice, your healing is already harmed. 



> (3) It will get back to the OW, and then she will try re-initiating contact with my husband.


Yuo are assuming the contact has stopped...


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

4getmenot said:


> I'd love to search his phone records, but he has to put in a special request through work for a copy. So I'd have to get him to go along with this. I suppose I could require it from him as a condition of moving forward. It would be great to have copies of those cell phone records...to fetter out the truth more...


Yes, you should require it. And as for polygraphs, they have a high error rate, but have psychological impact, i.e., they 'concentrate the mind' and can force truth out simply through the fear of having to face one.

(I would suggest that you continue to push for the full truth. Cheating spouses usually only tell you what they have to & then you have no idea what you are supposed to be reconciling over.)


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> I'd love to search his phone records, but he has to put in a special request through work for a copy. So I'd have to get him to go along with this.


Get him to go along?

If he truly loves you, wants to work on the marriage, regain your trust and wants to heal he'd have done that with out asking. My wife was willing to take a poly, move out the house and got the passwords to everything before I asked. She got a smart phone, her old phone died, gave me access and told me about the google account she needed to create for the phone.

She had one of he co-workers, who has a disorder, giver her permission to tell me the problem. He was texting her too much IMO. He was willing to get medical records to prove his sickness.

In other words, he should be doing EVERYTHING to make you feel better. Getting upset at your feelings is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what he should be doing.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> What is this?


The Healing Heart: The 180


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## Deb3 (Jan 28, 2013)

After reading all of the posts I'm sitting here not knowing what to say. The same type of thing happened to me with my husband 3 years ago this coming April. I stayed and now I've caught him not wanting me to see what he had minimized when I walked in the room. He said, it's just your imagination, he made light of talking to the old girlfriend from high school 3 years ago but deleted all the messages I hadn't seen. I read 6 but missed there were more so now says over a 2 year period there were only few. I thought we were different, I thought we were special and found out he'd lied to me about different things our whole marriage. I've had some counseling and read your posts and I've been so naive because I wanted to believe him so badly. He can be so nice and caring and loving and then such a jerk......OMG!!!!!!! I've been such a fool.


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## lonely one (Sep 3, 2012)

Oh, I made him delete here from his facebook. He made a fake one and still talked to her. The only reason I found out was because her husband called me and told me. She is now divorced. We went through marriage counseling. I don't think my husband got anything out of that. He think he had already checked out before that. He is still here, but it is not good. All we do is argue. I really don't think I will forgive him for this one. I think eventually we will split. It's just too hard. I am just trying to work it out for the kids. And after 19 years, I don't want to change my life.


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## Deb3 (Jan 28, 2013)

I found all this stuff on the pc. I had always trusted him and never checked up on him. It broke my heart! I have no way of knowing now what he is doing. Is he being honest or just better at hiding things. I'm afraid he is just better at hiding things.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Your husband is still alive right? This was after saying something that made her husband force her to delete your spouse from Facebook.
> 
> This is your fear talking.
> 
> ...


All true. 

Talked to him about getting access to his phone detail records. He was very willing, said he understands I can't believe a word out of his mouth right now and need hard proof. We are working on getting approval from corporate to see his itemized bills. Yes I know he could have another rogue phone, but this is a first step to take. 

Waiting to see how that bears out. Also set up for first MC visit next week, and am working on IC visit for myself. There is no rush to make a decision - waiting to decide when my head is clearer.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Get him to go along?
> 
> If he truly loves you, wants to work on the marriage, regain your trust and wants to heal he'd have done that with out asking. My wife was willing to take a poly, move out the house and got the passwords to everything before I asked. She got a smart phone, her old phone died, gave me access and told me about the google account she needed to create for the phone.
> 
> ...


He is indeed going along with everything, now that he sees it is the only way for me to get some resolution. He had a knee jerk reaction to having his privacy taken away, but said he realizes now, he has no right to privacy if he wants me back/to save our marriage.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> The Healing Heart: The 180


Thank you. EXTREMELY helpful!


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Deb3 said:


> After reading all of the posts I'm sitting here not knowing what to say. The same type of thing happened to me with my husband 3 years ago this coming April. I stayed and now I've caught him not wanting me to see what he had minimized when I walked in the room. He said, it's just your imagination, he made light of talking to the old girlfriend from high school 3 years ago but deleted all the messages I hadn't seen. I read 6 but missed there were more so now says over a 2 year period there were only few. I thought we were different, I thought we were special and found out he'd lied to me about different things our whole marriage. I've had some counseling and read your posts and I've been so naive because I wanted to believe him so badly. He can be so nice and caring and loving and then such a jerk......OMG!!!!!!! I've been such a fool.



I'm so sorry. So many red flags there, too. I see you feeling the same exact way as me. I feel like a fool, too. So fearful of getting snookered again. It sucks so bad.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

lonely one said:


> Oh, I made him delete here from his facebook. He made a fake one and still talked to her. The only reason I found out was because her husband called me and told me. She is now divorced. We went through marriage counseling. I don't think my husband got anything out of that. He think he had already checked out before that. He is still here, but it is not good. All we do is argue. I really don't think I will forgive him for this one. I think eventually we will split. It's just too hard. I am just trying to work it out for the kids. And after 19 years, I don't want to change my life.


I understand, and am so sorry. So hard to know if it is ever safe to trust again. Such a great gift to have taken away.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Deb3 said:


> I found all this stuff on the pc. I had always trusted him and never checked up on him. It broke my heart! I have no way of knowing now what he is doing. Is he being honest or just better at hiding things. I'm afraid he is just better at hiding things.


Oh, do I ever get that. 

Hubby says now I'm just looking for things he did wrong that never happened. Easy for him to say. He trusts himself.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Tell him that his behavior has caused you to question everything you thought you knew about him. His sneaky dishonest behavior casts a pall on his integrity. Yes, now you have to look at him through a different lens.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Aunt Ava said:


> Tell him that his behavior has caused you to question everything you thought you knew about him. His sneaky dishonest behavior casts a pall on his integrity. Yes, now you have to look at him through a different lens.


I did. I told him I look at him and think "Who ARE you?" He hangs his head, as he should. I told him I don't believe a word out of his mouth.


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## whatslovegottodowithit? (Jan 6, 2013)

Sadly folks, I can't EVER remember hearing of how Facebook, Twitter, etc... has helped strengthen relationships and help with your job, the contrary really! Hate to sound like an old man (I'm 36), but whatever happened to real human contact? Why do we as humans have to need to interact with people online when we don't, for whatever reason, interact with them in real-life situations? 

Not blaming the social media outlet(s) here, just saying that without Facebook, it's much more difficult for married peeps to interact outside the marriage with 'flings' or whatever. 

I'd require that your H closes his Facebook account and focuses on real human interaction.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Two things:

- H has to understand and accept how badly he has damaged things. It will get his hackles up because he wants you badly to trust. He wants things to go back to the way they were. You want this, too, but the loss of trust has rearranged your M for good. If he does what is needed, you can get back some of your trust. He has to keep flipping it back on himself to try to picture what he would feel if you did what he did.

- For all of the ladies on this thread who are going through the same thing: Please try to understand the natural impulse on the part of your H's to minimize. They will not naturally show you or tell you everything because they are protecting themselves. This is the standard script.

There is one thread here where the H in an EA/PA told his W that he texted perhaps a few times a week with the OW. When she forced him to show her the records, this is what she found:

- 176 hours in phone calls (about 1.5 hours a day during work hours).
- 8,800 texts (about 100 texts a day during work hours).

So, he said a few texts a week, but the reality was 700 texts per week.

If you want the truth to help you figure out how to proceed with your life, you have to insist on it and keep digging to get it.

Some people don't want to know & that's fine, too, if that works for them.


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## Lazarus (Jan 17, 2011)

4getmenot said:


> Oh, do I ever get that.
> 
> Hubby says now I'm just looking for things he did wrong that never happened. Easy for him to say. He trusts himself.


Hubby has to come up with a plan and present it to you to see if he can win you back. 

You be firm and tell him that you will not accept his blame shifting! 

It is because of his deceit that you need to look for things to decide whether they happened, or not!

Acting out his fantasy by making contact with an old flame is the reason that you are here.

If he can't man up to the challenge to win you back he has to decide to move out. You don't fear the future, but he might do.

He has to do some heavy lifting. If you feel he is very remorseful then listen to that and decide what you need to make you feel better and that he is working to win you back and save your marriage.

Don't give up at the first hurdle but don't be a push over either.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

4getmenot said:


> I'm so sorry. So many red flags there, too. I see you feeling the same exact way as me. I feel like a fool, too. So fearful of getting snookered again. It sucks so bad.


Any idea what the "promise" was that the OW referred to in your initial post? Some sort of promise made between your H and this woman so many years ago? Any idea what that was about?


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> Any idea what the "promise" was that the OW referred to in your initial post? Some sort of promise made between your H and this woman so many years ago? Any idea what that was about?


Probably typical high school stuff, you know "I will always love you no matter what happens." "I will be there whenever you need me." "I promise we will be together someday." "I promise when I am with him/her I will really be thinking of you."


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Aunt Ava said:


> Probably typical high school stuff, you know "I will always love you no matter what happens." "I will be there whenever you need me." "I promise we will be together someday." "I promise when I am with him/her I will really be thinking of you."


You are probably right, however I was curious whether the OP asked her H that particular question and what his answer was in light of the fact that the OW made a direct reference to some sort of "promise" (as if she expected H to "honor" the promise in the present time).

Most of us have probably made dumb promises to our then dates back in high school. Most of us don't remember them now, and certainly hold no expectation of keeping them in the present time. This OW makes a particular reference to it, which indicates that she may still hold it dear. The OP has every right to know what the promise was and what her H's response is and to consider that information in her present situation.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> You are probably right, however I was curious whether the OP asked her H that particular question and what his answer was in light of the fact that the OW made a direct reference to some sort of "promise" (as if she expected H to "honor" the promise in the present time).
> 
> Most of us have probably made dumb promises to our then dates back in high school. Most of us don't remember them now, and certainly hold no expectation of keeping them in the present time. This OW makes a particular reference to it, which indicates that she may still hold it dear. The OP has every right to know what the promise was and what her H's response is and to consider that information in her present situation.


:iagree: ... Completely. I bet he remembers, but is embarassed about it now.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

whatslovegottodowithit? said:


> Sadly folks, I can't EVER remember hearing of how Facebook, Twitter, etc... has helped strengthen relationships and help with your job, the contrary really! Hate to sound like an old man (I'm 36), but whatever happened to real human contact? Why do we as humans have to need to interact with people online when we don't, for whatever reason, interact with them in real-life situations?
> 
> Not blaming the social media outlet(s) here, just saying that without Facebook, it's much more difficult for married peeps to interact outside the marriage with 'flings' or whatever.
> 
> I'd require that your H closes his Facebook account and focuses on real human interaction.


He has. I closed it (deactivated it, in case I ever decide WAY in the future he can have it back). I then changed the email for logging in AND the password, both of which he has no clue of. I also completely blocked the OW and one other girl I didn't trust due to a lengthy private conversation he had had with her (they were "just friends" who had sex in college "but she wasn't marriage material"). Ugggghhhh! Maybe be true but may not be either. My husband sure has taken a lot of stupid pills lately. 

Ah! There it is! A little bit of my sense of humor coming back people! There is still life and spirit left inside of me after all.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Aunt Ava said:


> Probably typical high school stuff, you know "I will always love you no matter what happens." "I will be there whenever you need me." "I promise we will be together someday." "I promise when I am with him/her I will really be thinking of you."


He says he has no clue what promise she is talking about. However I believe it is something along the lines of "I will be there whenever you need me" b/c he admitted this to me about their conversation 2 years ago:

He realized that life has gone on, and that he was very happy that he did not marry her. However, he told her that she has a “friend” who loves her, and she would always have a friend to come to if she needed anything. 

Finding this out hurt me terribly. They definitely have an emotional bond. He even kept saying "she's just a good friend, and I'm happy she's happy". I pointed out to him that he was using the word "is"...keeping her in our present, and he needs to put her in the PAST, where I put all of my old boyfriends. He agreed, little bit of lightbulb went off in his head, perhaps.

He now says he sees how he took me for granted, and that there is no comparison between the two of us, and no, he will not risk us by "being there for her" to infinity. There should only be one person you are there for to infinity - your SPOUSE. 


All words, just words - but he is trying. We are working on getting phone records from 2 years ago from corporate (no small task - they say the file is too big to get all records from then and want a smaller window to have to collect data - bureaucratic bull****). He has been talking with me for hours on end, and we have our first counseling appt set up next week. 

I still see him minimizing what he has done, says people would be shocked if we end up divorced b/c of a phone call. He feels hurt b/c of me accusing him of possibly doing more than an emotional betrayal, and he wants to clear his name. He feels like I am not giving him credit for being faithful by my side all of these years (he has indeed been an AMAZING husband aside all of this - I know you don't know him, but please try to keep that in context). I told him yes he has been a good, good man but his bad actions have now called all of that into question. The reason I am willing to work through this IS b/c of how good he has been to me and how much I still love him, despite this lying/deceitful part I just discovered. 

I think we are going to get through this. It just ain't gonna be easy or fast, and he is finally starting to accept that...I think!


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> You are probably right, however I was curious whether the OP asked her H that particular question and what his answer was in light of the fact that the OW made a direct reference to some sort of "promise" (as if she expected H to "honor" the promise in the present time).
> 
> Most of us have probably made dumb promises to our then dates back in high school. Most of us don't remember them now, and certainly hold no expectation of keeping them in the present time. This OW makes a particular reference to it, which indicates that she may still hold it dear. The OP has every right to know what the promise was and what her H's response is and to consider that information in her present situation.


He says he has no idea what she is referring to. On the one hand, I find that hard to believe. On the other hand, it is believable b/c my husband forgets **** I tell him all the time (don't all men, lol - sorry guys) - and it could be that classic of a woman remembering something much stronger than a guy does. I think as I said above it's probably to always be there for each other - but I don't know for sure and don't know how I ever could find out, unless I directly contacted her...and she tells me the truth. I'm not sure making her aware of how much that phone call interfered with our marriage is a good thing...?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You sound like you are in as good a spot as you can be. Having the whole truth, having him on board with taking responsibility, understanding how game-changing what he did is - these are all important.

He doesn't get it yet (and probably won't completely unless you did something similar to him), but it's not 'just a phone call.' It's a betrayal of you. It's symbolic and serious and destroys trust; it thus affects your future dramatically. Again, ad nauseum, he needs to imagine how he would feel to suddenly discover that you were secretly in touch with an old flame. I mean, what if you were actively expending time and energy to conceal a secret relationship?


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> You sound like you are in as good a spot as you can be. Having the whole truth, having him on board with taking responsibility, understanding how game-changing what he did is - these are all important.
> 
> He doesn't get it yet (and probably won't completely unless you did something similar to him), but it's not 'just a phone call.' It's a betrayal of you. It's symbolic and serious and destroys trust; it thus affects your future dramatically. Again, ad nauseum, he needs to imagine how he would feel to suddenly discover that you were secretly in touch with an old flame. I mean, what if you were actively expending time and energy to conceal a secret relationship?


Agreed. I keep saying that to him, what if I had lied to you and been deceitful, risked our marriage to talk to an old flame? His initial reaction was that he wasn't sure he'd be able to forgive me. Now, when I say it, he just says "You keep saying that. I don't know what more you want me to say. I never intended for it to be anything more than a phone call. It was just a phone call!"

Yep, a phone call that represents so much more, destroyed my trust in him and belief in his love for me.

And thus the need for MC!


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

4getmenot said:


> He says he has no idea what she is referring to. On the one hand, I find that hard to believe. On the other hand, it is believable b/c my husband forgets **** I tell him all the time (don't all men, lol - sorry guys) - and it could be that classic of a woman remembering something much stronger than a guy does. I think as I said above it's probably to always be there for each other - but I don't know for sure and don't know how I ever could find out, unless I directly contacted her...and she tells me the truth. I'm not sure making her aware of how much that phone call interfered with our marriage is a good thing...?


Actually no. Making her aware of any effect she has in your marriage is a bad thing. It feeds her ego. It tells her that she is a threat. It could further make her believe that your H has feelings for her, and she might even try to pursue him further.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> Actually no. Making her aware of any effect she has in your marriage is a bad thing. It feeds her ego. It tells her that she is a threat. It could further make her believe that your H has feelings for her, and she might even try to pursue him further.


That was my concern, although I didn't think it through nearly as clearly as you have. Thank you SO much for putting it into perspective.

I so want to hurt her emotionally like she has hurt me. Uggggh. Petty, juvenile response...but don't worry...I blame my husband more.


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## lonely one (Sep 3, 2012)

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if they want to talk, they will. Just by closing a facebook account or changing an e-mail or password does nothing. They can make fake facebook accounts and there are tons of free e-mails out there that anyone can change at any time. As far as I'm concerned, if they will like once, they will do it again. And you just never know when it's true or not. It just depends on how willing you are to dig. I decided I didn't want to be obsessed with it anymore. If he cheats again, he is out, no matter what. He may be out before that.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

lonely one said:


> I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if they want to talk, they will. Just by closing a facebook account or changing an e-mail or password does nothing. They can make fake facebook accounts and there are tons of free e-mails out there that anyone can change at any time. As far as I'm concerned, if they will like once, they will do it again. And you just never know when it's true or not. It just depends on how willing you are to dig. I decided I didn't want to be obsessed with it anymore. If he cheats again, he is out, no matter what. He may be out before that.


I know, I have learned that cold hard reality from this board. There is nothing I truly can do to keep them from communicating again if they really want to. Where there is a will, there is a way. I have made it clear to him that if I find out he is not telling me the whole truth about this OR if there is any future contact between them, it is over. (Unless she contacts him, and he lets me know immediately - I can't control if she contacts him again). So I have made it very clear that this is my giving him a 2nd chance, there is no 3rd chance...and reminded him of our original pact that there are no 2nd chances for infidelity. The only reason he is getting a 2nd chance in this case is because:

1) I am choosing to believe this was only one phone call and there was no further contact - given the information I have currently
2) I am choosing to put his actions in the context of how he has behaved towards me over the last 18+ years. Always loving, doting, caring towards me - never left my side during my cancer treatment. Also seeing that he told a friend he would never remarry if I passed away, b/c no one could replace me (he wrote this in a discussion with a friend on facebook - nowhere I'd see since we are not mutual friends - and before I found out about the phone call - so he wasn't writing it so I could see it. I believe that it was a genuine statement from him). 
3) He is being very open now, letting me look at his computer and phone whenever I want, and jumping through corporate hoops to get copies of phone records for me. He is willing it go to counseling and also offered to take a lie detector test.
3) He is slowly "getting it" as to why this was such a big deal to me - he still has work to do on this for sure - but he is making progress on this
4) I have faced what it would be like if our marriage was over, and realized I can indeed take care of myself and would survive emotionally and financially. That actually is a great gift/positive to get out of this - and I feel I have some growth to do in this area of feeling more independent from him. So I feel that I am choosing to believe him not b/c I am afraid of being alone, but because I do think it is very likely that I know the whole truth. I am not staying out of fear. 

Some may feel I am being naive, that there is probably more to the situation than I know. You may be right - and I still have lingering doubts about the extent of contact. At some point, though, you have to realize you will never know "for sure"...and weigh the "what if's" and obsessing against what you feel you truly do have with another. I have allowed myself to be burned once - have established the boundaries with both myself and my husband - and if I get burned again, it will be the last.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

This sounds good, you are feeling stronger and you know what you will and won't tolerate. Equally important he now knows, and as long as he agrees to continued complete transparency I think you're in good shape. 

If he whines or complains remind him you now see him through a different lens and he alone is responsible for that. Trust but verify.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> He says he has no clue what promise she is talking about. However I believe it is something along the lines of "I will be there whenever you need me" b/c he admitted this to me about their conversation 2 years ago:
> 
> He realized that life has gone on, and that he was very happy that he did not marry her. However, he told her that she has a “friend” who loves her, and she would always have a friend to come to if she needed anything.
> They definitely have an emotional bond. He even kept saying "she's just a good friend, and I'm happy she's happy". I pointed out to him that he was using the word "is".


He knows the promise and he is either embarrassed or doesn't want you to know. He needs to tell you because it will always be a hook she can use to get him back. I'm 5 months out and still getting little "clues" that she skipped, omitted and forgot when we had our D-day.





> All words, just words - but he is trying. We are working on getting phone records from 2 years ago from corporate (no small task - they say the file is too big to get all records from then and want a smaller window to have to collect data - bureaucratic bull****). He has been talking with me for hours on end, and we have our first counseling appt set up next week.


Glad he is finally stepping up a tiny bit.


> I still see him minimizing what he has done, says people would be shocked if we end up divorced b/c of a phone call. He feels hurt b/c of me accusing him of possibly doing more than an emotional betrayal, and he wants to clear his name. He feels like I am not giving him credit for being faithful by my side all of these years (he has indeed been an AMAZING husband aside all of this - I know you don't know him, but please try to keep that in context). I told him yes he has been a good, good man but his bad actions have now called all of that into question. The reason I am willing to work through this IS b/c of how good he has been to me and how much I still love him, despite this lying/deceitful part I just discovered.


 Same arguments my wife used. This is about you two and what "shocks" other people doesn't matter. Oh and he'd be surprised because it isn't about a phone call, it is about reconnecting with old flames and trust. He lied and you are making the choice to believe he didn't have an PA. I told my wife if it goes down hill, I would tell everyone it was an AFFAIR and let them sort out the particulars. 

Not Just Friends is a must read. My wife recently told me she was embarrassed to talk about the book because she thought I would laugh and say "I told you so." She said it was hard to read because much of the book is true. She's only read the intro and first few chapters.



> I think we are going to get through this. It just ain't gonna be easy or fast, and he is finally starting to accept that...I think!


Yes, but make sure you do not backslide until he understand HE is the only one that did something emotionally wrong. There may be other issues in the marriage, but he doesn't get to tie this breach of trust to those problems.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> He knows the promise and he is either embarrassed or doesn't want you to know. He needs to tell you because it will always be a hook she can use to get him back. I'm 5 months out and still getting little "clues" that she skipped, omitted and forgot when we had our D-day.


Thank you for pointing this out. I will bring this up in our counseling session and hope that somehow the therapist will be able to get it out of him, b/c I'm getting nothing on it except "I don't know, I don't remember." 



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Same arguments my wife used. This is about you two and what "shocks" other people doesn't matter. Oh and he'd be surprised because it isn't about a phone call, it is about reconnecting with old flames and trust. He lied and you are making the choice to believe he didn't have an PA. I told my wife if it goes down hill, I would tell everyone it was an AFFAIR and let them sort out the particulars.


I told him today that I thought about how he said most people would actually be shocked at how much I am reacting to what he has done – he clarified and said they’d be shocked if we got divorced over it, that he knows most people would be really pissed off if their spouse talked to an old girlfriend/boyfriend. He said he hopes once the phone records come back, that I will be able to see it was just a phone call, nothing more. I told him, no, I won’t just “get over it” – b/c I already am choosing to think that it was only a phone call – but it is what that phone call represents…and that most people have never trusted anyone as much as I trusted him, enough to let him be friends with old lovers on facebook – and so they can’t understand what it is like to lose that kind of trust. It was special, not your normal level of trust between some married couples (aka the kind of couples that just "settle" for each other). I trusted him completely, more than anyone ever in my life, and he took advantage of that trust. He said he knows, and hopes we can rebuild our marriage and trust. I said I’ve already decided that I am committed to building it back, but that I need to establish some parameters, and part of that is making sure he knows exactly how damaging what he did was to my trust in him. He said I don’t have to drive it home, he already knows. I said obviously I do have to drive it home, b/c you think others would be “shocked” at my reaction, and you think I will feel much better after I get the phone records. The records will just keep things from getting worse – the fact that you only talked to her once will not ease the pain of (1) being lied to (2) being deceived (3) you choosing talking to an old flame over protecting our love. I told him he said he didn’t realize what he was risking when he made that call, and for me to go forward, I need him to truly understand what he risked - b/c if anything like this ever happens again, I won't be able to reconcile then. I told him I don’t want to make threats, yet at the same time, I need to make sure he understands how serious I take being lied to. I told him I’m afraid of him, how much power he has to hurt me, and I am afraid to ever trust him the same way again. He kinda got quiet on that one. I hope all of what I said is sinking in to him. He really needs to analyze this and fully comprehend what he has done before we can move forward with healing. I told him this is why we need counseling. 



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Not Just Friends is a must read. My wife recently told me she was embarrassed to talk about the book because she thought I would laugh and say "I told you so." She said it was hard to read because much of the book is true. She's only read the intro and first few chapters.


Wow, I just looked that book up on Amazon and saw the reviews. It sounds just PERFECT for us to read. I found it at our library on audiobook - hubby and I travel together for work a lot and listen to books...just requested it...wait til he finds out what our next book is going to be...ha ha ha. Yes, enjoying the thought of torturing him by listening to this book together, pausing it, and making him talk. :lol: The hard part is once he hears the words "infidelity" or "affair" he shuts down, b/c he doesn't want to be accused of that and says it was a phone call that went no where and never had any intention of going somewhere. Hoping I can get him to listen and truly hear what this book has to say, and apply it to our situation. I think the only way I can get him to do that is to continue to tell him I accept that there was nothing more than that phone call. Otherwise he gets defensive and shuts down. There is no way I will ever know definitively, so I don't see the point in accusing him, especially if I am committed to reconciling and risking being hurt again. We certainly won't get anywhere if I accuse him of something without proof. And heaven forbid - what if it WAS only a phone call? Then I would be pushing him away for something that I do feel I can someday forgive him for (but not forget, trust me, I will never forget this). I love my life with him too much to not work hard at reconciling. 



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, but make sure you do not backslide until he understand HE is the only one that did something emotionally wrong. There may be other issues in the marriage, but he doesn't get to tie this breach of trust to those problems.


Hopefully, he will not see what I am saying to him above as "giving in" - I've been pretty firm in saying I won't ever tolerate anything like this again...it's such a fine line to walk between pushing someone away/protecting yourself/reconciling. Ugggh. I keep posting here b/c it keeps me on my toes - you all really help me by validating my feelings, helping me see things clearer, and reminding me to protect myself. Thank you.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> I need him to truly understand what he risked - b/c if anything like this ever happens again, I won't be able to reconcile then.


Exactly. The book will help you because it was written before you found out the issue and it isn't you making it up in your head. That was the issue my wife had. Until she heard it from someone not connected to us, your MC falls in this category of rationalization, I was blowing smoke. 




> Wow, I just looked that book up on Amazon and saw the reviews. It sounds just PERFECT for us to read. I found it at our library on audiobook - hubby and I travel together for work a lot and listen to books...just requested it...wait til he finds out what our next book is going to be...ha ha ha. Yes, enjoying the thought of torturing him by listening to this book together, pausing it, and making him talk. :lol: The hard part is once he hears the words "infidelity" or "affair" he shuts down, b/c he doesn't want to be accused of that and says it was a phone call that went no where and never had any intention of going somewhere. Hoping I can get him to listen and truly hear what this book has to say, and apply it to our situation. I think the only way I can get him to do that is to continue to tell him I accept that there was nothing more than that phone call. Otherwise he gets defensive and shuts down.


LOL. He could be telling the truth, but I told my wife she hid it. That's all I needed to know. If it was that innocent, I would have known about it from the get go when the dynamics changed. 

Here's an article I had my wife read. It is so close to our story, I jokingly asked her if it she used a pseudonym.
The Affair You Don't Know You're Having

I was that husband. I read No More Mister Nice Guy and I am not what they call Beta. In this instance I was beta. Heck, I found the number almost 8 months before D-day and my gut told me "WTH does she need her BFF's boyfriend's number?" She gave me a plausible, not really, explanation and I didn't want to be a controlling snoop!

Yet, as someone pointed out in another thread "snooping," "gut feelings" and "controlling" are negatives. They are, but that is because society should be using the correct words. You aren't "snooping", you are *"investigating."* It is not a "gut feeling," but "*passive signs*" that heighten your awareness. These two things allow you to not "control" or be "controlling" , but set *"boundaries"* to help preserve and protect your marriage.

Without the silliness:
You are "investigating" "passive signs," to set "boundaries" that preserve and protect your marriage. I am not "controlling" because ultimately it is up to my spouse to accept the boundaries.

That isn't controlling at all. 


> There is no way I will ever know definitively, so I don't see the point in accusing him, especially if I am committed to reconciling and risking being hurt again. We certainly won't get anywhere if I accuse him of something without proof. And heaven forbid - what if it WAS only a phone call? Then I would be pushing him away for something that I do feel I can someday forgive him for (but not forget, trust me, I will never forget this). I love my life with him too much to not work hard at reconciling.


 That's what I decided, but I also said "if ANYTHING comes out after we reconcile you are gone with no hesitation."
No gnashing of teeth, no explanations, no excuses and no "it was so long ago I forgot." "I have given you your chance and everything needs to be on the table NOW!"


> Hopefully, he will not see what I am saying to him above as "giving in" - I've been pretty firm in saying I won't ever tolerate anything like this again...it's such a fine line to walk between pushing someone away/protecting yourself/reconciling. Ugggh. I keep posting here b/c it keeps me on my toes - you all really help me by validating my feelings, helping me see things clearer, and reminding me to protect myself. Thank you.


Just passing on what I have learned from others!


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Thank you so much phillybeffandswiss! I am learning so much here!!! Great post. :smthumbup:


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Let me add one thing! Be prepared when you see the records. I hope they are really minimal, but my wife's were ridiculous. 

I'd actually tell him I want to look at them alone. That way you can control your emotions and cool down a bit if they are worse than what he claims. If they are being sent to the house tell him not to open them until you are around. 

You don't want him to set up his defenses, you want to see his true reaction! That helped me believe she didn't realize how heavy they were texting.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think you're doing great, too. You sound strong and as in control as you can be. At the risk of declaring a 'gut' feeling, I have the sense that your H is now being basically aboveboard.

The business of it 'just being a phone call' has to be refashioned, I think. He minimizes it by looking at it this way. Try to find another way to talk about it. For instance, say 'reaching out secretly to another woman' or 'secretly connecting emotionally with someone else.' Tell him that it's not the fact of the phone call that is the whole issue; it's what was in his heart and mind that drove him to do it, the excitement, the anticipation, the interest. He had to be focusing emotionally/romantically on another woman in order to do what he did.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Big P.S. - The message your H left on the ex's page that made her H upset is getting lost in the noise here. He needs to tell you what was in that message. It's not just a phone call.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Yes!

The promise and the message that upset her.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Let me add one thing! Be prepared when you see the records. I hope they are really minimal, but my wife's were ridiculous.
> 
> I'd actually tell him I want to look at them alone. That way you can control your emotions and cool down a bit if they are worse than what he claims. If they are being sent to the house tell him not to open them until you are around.
> 
> You don't want him to set up his defenses, you want to see his true reaction! That helped me believe she didn't realize how heavy they were texting.


Supposedly it is one and only one phone call EVER between them. Well, except for the call her made to her just prior to us getting married to tell her he found "the one", and she gave him "permission" to marry me, which he says pissed him off (aka "I wasn't asking for her permission, I was telling her I had found "the one" and was happy). Oh and the time she called him a year or two after they broke up just after high school to tell him "I'm getting married". It's like they check in with each other each time before they make a commitment to someone else. How scary of a bond is that? It makes me sick.

Oh, back to the one supposed phone call in 2010. It was only supposedly a "5 minute conversation". If I see more than one call, or if it was over a 30 minute conversation, I'm gonna blow my top. 

So yeah, your advice to look at them alone is very smart (once again, great advice!). I don't know how the records will be delivered. The corporate "help desk" is now requesting them from the cell phone carrier and said "it may take some time to assimilate all of those records" (we asked for records since 2010). They are in contact with him through his work email. He will receive notice from them first of the records. Hoping they are in pdf scanned format and there is no way he can change anything in them. I only have so much I can control here. I will tell him not to open the records before me and that I want to view them alone.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I think you're doing great, too. You sound strong and as in control as you can be. At the risk of declaring a 'gut' feeling, I have the sense that your H is now being basically aboveboard.
> 
> The business of it 'just being a phone call' has to be refashioned, I think. He minimizes it by looking at it this way. Try to find another way to talk about it. For instance, say 'reaching out secretly to another woman' or 'secretly connecting emotionally with someone else.' Tell him that it's not the fact of the phone call that is the whole issue; it's what was in his heart and mind that drove him to do it, the excitement, the anticipation, the interest. He had to be focusing emotionally/romantically on another woman in order to do what he did.


Thank you for reframing it in a way the shows exactly what it means to mean. Definitely will discuss it like this from now on. Definitely. Man, you guys are good. Do I really need counseling? Ha ha ha. Yes, I do, I know, but dang this board is helpful!!!


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Big P.S. - The message your H left on the ex's page that made her H upset is getting lost in the noise here. He needs to tell you what was in that message. It's not just a phone call.


Wow, you guys really paid attention to the detail of my story...I cannot thank you enough for caring so much about a stranger to take the time to read all this, follow it, and give me advice. 

His answer for this was that she had made a post about being on a trip and getting lost on a train or having some difficulty related to the trip. He said he commented on this post, he doesn't remember what he said, but swears it was something benign. He said he went back to see exactly what he wrote that might have pissed off her hubby, but she had already unfriended him by that point, so he couldn't review the interaction. By reviewing what I could see on her page publicly, I figured out she was on a trip away with a friend in NYC. So, since she is a flirt by nature (my husband admits she has always been a big flirt), her new hubby, who likely knows this about her, probably was anxious about her being away from him...and in the northeast area where we used to live (and he probably thought we still lived in that area). I put it all together and thought perhaps he was afraid she'd try to connect with my hubby while on her girl's "weekend away"...and any comment from him would send him through the roof...but that is all my surmising - no proof/evidence of this - just a guess. 

I did find a copy of her response in a facebook email sent to his work email where she replied:

_"Thx ,,, we are having fun,,,, really!"_


So, his story does sound plausible...do I believe it or do I really need to dig deeper? I don't think I'll get any better response from him, esp. if he honestly doesn't remember what he said. Seriously, this guy does forget half the stuff I tell him - he's never been a detail guy - so it is very plausible he doesn't remember exactly what he said. 

The only way to know for sure is to contact her husband and ask what the comment was my husband made and why it made him uncomfortable. If I get the phone records, and there indeed was only one phone call, is it worth opening this other can of worms/possibly the husband bringing it up to her that I contacted him, and then she gets her ego going/thinks about calling my hubby/gets my hubby all pissed off??? For possibly it truly being a benign comment that triggered the OW's spouse who already has suspicions b/c she is a flirt?


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

And while I have the chance to post, wanted to share the following that I wrote in my journal this morning...(yes, it's a password protected file on my computer, now I've moved into having "secrets")...just wouldn't want hubby to read some of the things I feel, as I don't want to cause irreparable harm to our relationship by saying terrible things that I feel now, but can't take back later:

_So I cried myself to sleep last night, again…and took a sleeping pill, again. I’m so afraid I am never going to look at you again without thinking about how you deliberately lied to me, deceived me, betrayed me. I believed in you with ALL of my heart. Completely trusted you. Trusted you enough to let you be friends with two old lovers on facebook. And how did you repay me for that trust? By taking advantage of it and talking to one behind my back. I’m so afraid I will never love you in the same way again, to the same degree. I grieve over that like you wouldn’t know, couldn’t know or ever understand, b/c I haven’t done this to you. I am so hurt by you, and I don’t know how to forgive you for hurting me so bad. I feel disgusted when I think about you scheming up this plan to deceive me, talking to her, and then coming home and loving on me – acting like nothing happened – like nothing had changed. I am so afraid that I am never going to feel the same way about you. I loved you so much. Trusted you so much. My heart is broken. My vision of who you are is broken. I look at you, and I don't like who I am now seeing, even though I still love you deep down. I have never, ever felt that way about you. I have always loved you despite any annoying traits, etc. I find it impossible to love the side of you that is deceitful. 

How do I ever feel loved again, and believe in it? I feel like you settled for me. Otherwise, why would you risk us to talk to her? 

I keep thinking back to this:

When I asked you if you told her you still loved her when you talked, you said no, not that you "still" love her. You said you guys talked about how you both know life has gone on, but "know that you will always have a friend that loves you." I can't believe you told me this - but maybe I should see it as a good sign of being brutally honest. You said you told her "I loved you back then, but our lives have turned out different...know that if you ever feel bad, there's someone out there that still cares about you." Then you said you had no intent of ever reuniting with her. You said you'd never want to be with her, you wouldn't have wanted kids and to be super religious. You said her lifestyle is nothing like you would have liked. Well gee. So glad I have those favorable traits going for me. 

I feel like I will never trust that you love me, and only me, in your heart. I feel like I never had 100% of your heart, I just thought I did. Boy, ignorance was bliss. True bliss. I am so sad to lose this. I am heart broken.

How do I know you are over her? 20 years went by, yet you still had the compulsion to speak with her, behind my back – facebook, where I could see your conversations, wasn’t enough. And then when you talk to her you tell her she will always have a friend that loves her there for her if she needs you. Do you know how much that hurts? Even after that phone call, you still didn't cut the ties from your heart to hers. You still call her a “good friend” in the present tense. You didn’t delete her number from your iphone until I found that facebook message between you two where she unfriended you and again mentioned “ I won't forget our promise forever and always....” When I asked you if you had talked or texted, you angrily denied it. You admit now that it made you remember her phone number was still on your iphone, so you deleted it. You forgot to delete it on your old phone, though. She still has a piece of your heart, which means I will never be 100% of your heart. You have that from me, but I never had that from you. Do you know how much that hurts? It hurts so bad I can't even begin to explain it. 

What did you get out of that phone call? Closure from what? What unanswered questions did you have in your mind? What did you learn? 


_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

4getmenot said:


> ... I feel disgusted when I think about you scheming up this plan to deceive me, talking to her, and then coming home and loving on me – acting like nothing happened – like nothing had changed.
> [/I]


This is a very important piece, 4get. It's the planning, deceiving, lying. This is what breaks you. He has to start understanding this. You should show him this part of your journal.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Well, I just pissed him off royally. I told him I don't want him to open the phone files sent to him when he gets them - I want to see them first - there has to be no question in my mind that he hasn't opened them, so don't click on any of the "links" in whatever email he gets. He didn't like it, but was ok with it.

Then, though, I said, just to confirm, it was ONE phone call, and about 5 minutes. He said yes. I said "I'm gonna be pissed off if it was a long conversation". He said "well, maybe it was 15 minutes, but it wasn't a long time, no matter what". So I kinda got even more pissy and said "well, I feel like I am on a 'need to know' basis with you - I'm only told what you want me to know, and you only tell me stuff when I'm getting close to finding out the truth or if I ask the right questions by chance."

Oh boy, that really set him off. I could see him getting so mad and angry, he just got quiet, slammed doors, etc. I told him he cannot be mad at me for feeling this way, he created it. No response, silence, anger.

Is it really a good idea to tell him exactly what I am thinking? Am I going overboard, am I saying things that are going to push him away needlessly? Things that I will regret someday? Especially if I am falsely accusing him of doing more than he did or insinuating he's hiding more when he's not...am I not doing more damage to our relationship? How do I walk this fine line of finding out the truth vs possibly falsely accusing?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> Well, I just pissed him off royally. I told him I don't want him to open the phone files sent to him when he gets them - I want to see them first - there has to be no question in my mind that he hasn't opened them, so don't click on any of the "links" in whatever email he gets. He didn't like it, but was ok with it.
> 
> Then, though, I said, just to confirm, it was ONE phone call, and about 5 minutes. He said yes. I said "I'm gonna be pissed off if it was a long conversation". He said "well, maybe it was 15 minutes, but it wasn't a long time, no matter what". So I kinda got even more pissy and said "well, I feel like I am on a 'need to know' basis with you - I'm only told what you want me to know, and you only tell me stuff when I'm getting close to finding out the truth or if I ask the right questions by chance."
> 
> Oh boy, that really set him off. I could see him getting so mad and angry, he just got quiet, slammed doors, etc. I told him he cannot be mad at me for feeling this way, he created it. No response, silence, anger.


None of this is accusatory, it is you setting boundaries and he doesn't like them.

What you said is true. He said it was "A" and now it is "B." That isn't an accusation, he proved your distrust true. If you didn't notice, he tripled the call time 5 X 3=15! People here always say what they say is at least half of what they claim!

The thing I do, even when I trigger, is run the retort, response, or whatever through my head before responding. It does three things:
1) My wife knows I triggered because there is a pause.
2) It give me an extra few seconds to digest their comment.
3) It gives me a chance to gauge and, if necessary, temper my response.

Oh and if I may ask, where is the email or records getting sent?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I don't think you have to pound away at things to get your point across. So, for me, if I asked the question about the call and time and he said, 'Well, maybe 15, but not long,' I would probably have raised my eyebrows in acknowledgment of the obvious and let him stew.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Oh and if I may ask, where is the email or records getting sent?


His work email, I think. They didn't say on the email they sent back to him, just said it would take a couple of days to get the records. That's the only way corporate will communicate with him. Frustrating.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I don't think you have to pound away at things to get your point across. So, for me, if I asked the question about the call and time and he said, 'Well, maybe 15, but not long,' I would probably have raised my eyebrows in acknowledgment of the obvious and let him stew.


Thanks, I will try to temper my responses a bit better. Hard to control my feelings of hurt and anger! But I will try harder. 

We had a nice talk later about this. He said he was biting his tongue, wanted to say some mean things, so he just kept quiet. He said he's tired of me rehashing the events. I told him I know, but from everything I've read, it is normal for someone in my situation to rehash what happened and become hypervigilant looking for other stuff. 

I told him he has to be patient with me as I work through this process and try to figure out how to trust him again. He said "I'll get you your proof!" I think he just wants his name cleared, and he feels terribly about what he did do, and doesn't want to be accused of anything worse. He says this was the worst mistake of his life. He said he is trying really hard to be patient "but I'm human, so when I get mad, it's hard to not react". He said he's afraid he has ruined my trust in him forever. 

He said he is tired of the jeckyl/hyde I am presenting as. One minute I am getting along fine with him - even holding his hand, etc, then next I'm essentially shooting daggers with body language and verbal words. I explained to him that I know I am doing that, and it's confusing to me, too, but what is happening is I am enjoying being with him again, then WHAM I remember that he lied and deceived me in order to have a secret conversation with another woman. I think that helped us both understand why I've been all over the place with my reactions the past few weeks. It's crazy! 

I seem to be getting a clearer picture of my feelings and becoming calmer every day, though.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> His work email, I think. They didn't say on the email they sent back to him, just said it would take a couple of days to get the records. That's the only way corporate will communicate with him. Frustrating.


Dang because he can auto-forward it to you if it was sent to his personal email!


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> He said he is tired of the jeckyl/hyde I am presenting as. One minute I am getting along fine with him - even holding his hand, etc, then next I'm essentially shooting daggers with body language and verbal words.


It is interesting that he used the Jekkyl/Hyde comparison, because that is exactly how I described my husband who one minute told me he loved me and would marry me again, and the next minute was coldly and calculatingly planning to abandon me.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

If you or your H were to read more threads here, you would see that the roller coaster of emotions that you are experiencing is normal. Again, I suggest continuing to say that it's the fact that he secretly wanted to connect with another woman, that he took the time and made the effort to do this, that that is where his thoughts were, that the impulse was strong enough for him to follow through - this is a big part of the problem. This is the heart of the betrayal. Your heart tells you simply that he shouldn't be wanting to do this if he really loves you. He can protest all he wants, but that is what your heart says, isn't it?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> Thanks, I will try to temper my responses a bit better. Hard to control my feelings of hurt and anger! But I will try harder.
> 
> We had a nice talk later about this. He said he was biting his tongue, wanted to say some mean things, so he just kept quiet. He said he's tired of me rehashing the events. I told him I know, but from everything I've read, it is normal for someone in my situation to rehash what happened and become hypervigilant looking for other stuff.
> 
> ...


Don't let him blame shift and go get marriage counseling. Make sure you find one that has dealt with infidelity. If the person starts blaming you quit.

Read this thread:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/66694-serious-question-about-staying-together.html

Now, while you should temper your responses do not suppress or bury your feelings. Granted, it is a PA, but this could happen if you acquiesce to burying your feelings. That poor guy did everything and 12 years later, he is right back where he started.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> If you or your H were to read more threads here, you would see that the roller coaster of emotions that you are experiencing is normal. Again, I suggest continuing to say that it's the fact that he secretly wanted to connect with another woman, that he took the time and made the effort to do this, that that is where his thoughts were, that the impulse was strong enough for him to follow through - this is a big part of the problem. This is the heart of the betrayal. Your heart tells you simply that he shouldn't be wanting to do this if he really loves you. He can protest all he wants, but that is what your heart says, isn't it?


Absolutely. You really encapsulated it. Thank you for helping me put into words why I am so upset. Now if I can just get this all across to him better. He hears me saying words similar to that above, but I don't feel like he is truly feeling it in his heart...he just wants it all to go away. I sure do hope MC helps.


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## Lazarus (Jan 17, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> If you or your H were to read more threads here, you would see that the roller coaster of emotions that you are experiencing is normal. Again, I suggest continuing to say that it's the fact that he secretly wanted to connect with another woman, that he took the time and made the effort to do this, that that is where his thoughts were, that the impulse was strong enough for him to follow through - this is a big part of the problem. This is the heart of the betrayal. Your heart tells you simply that he shouldn't be wanting to do this if he really loves you. He can protest all he wants, but that is what your heart says, isn't it?


Watch your thoughts, they become words.
Watch your words, they become actions.
Watch your actions, they become habits.
Watch your habits, they become your character.
Watch your character, it becomes your destiny.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Hi all,

Looking for feedback on the risk/benefit analysis of contacting the other woman's spouse. I am having recurring thoughts of contacting him, and just not sure it is the best idea...but I can't seem to keep thinking about it. 

*Possible benefits:*

1) I can find out if he knows if there is anything more to their contact besides the private emails and "one phone call." I can find out why he requested his wife to unfriend my husband.
2) I will exactly my slice of revenge on the OW by causing her relationship problems. To be honest, I want to hurt her just as much as she and my husband have hurt me. 

*
Possible risks: *

If it truly is nothing more than this one phone call (which my gut still tells me is the case, although I know, I know, my gut was wrong before), I risk:

1) her finding out I contacted her husband, and making this whole incident "bigger than it really is" - i.e. making her ego bigger and possibly re-fueling her interest in connecting further with my husband...possibly making things worse than they really are

2) causing another couple relationship problems for no good reasons. I feel like my husband is protecting her - and yes, maybe himself - with this comment, more than anything. This makes me sad b/c then it means he does still care about her, or, even worse, has something more to hide. At the same time, though, I feel like it is true - if it really was just this one phone call, then honestly, I wish I never knew, b/c of the pain it caused me. I do feel bad when I think about inflicting that pain on the other woman's spouse.

3) Possibly causing the other couple such marriage difficulty that they eventually break up, making her back "on the market" and this a bit riskier for me b/c no one "watching her" (honestly, I think this is not really a risk b/c she can do whatever she likes married or not, so this may just be my fear talking)

4) my husband finding out I contacted him and then becoming angry that I made this issue into more than it is, making our attempts at reconciliation more difficult.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

4getmenot said:


> Possible risks: [/U][/B]
> 
> 1) her finding out I contacted her husband, and making this whole incident "bigger than it really is" - i.e. making her ego bigger and possibly re-fueling her interest in connecting further with my husband...possibly making things worse than they really are
> 
> ...



1) Contacting her husband makes her realize just how you are about this serious, and also, wouldn't you want to know if you were the husband ? THE HUSBAND HAS A RIGHT TO KNOW, JUST LIKE YOU HAD A RIGHT TO KNOW.

2) So you want to rug sweep this in regards to the OW's husband ? If he currently does not know, then he is being lied to just like you were. What if by being told he uncovers more about his wife, whether it pertains to your husband or not.

3) You can't control what happens to them once he finds out, and like you said, she can do these things married or not. 

4) I think your husband has forfeited his rights at anger over this by doing what he did.

All I can say further is that if the situation was reversed, wouldn't you want the OW's husband to tell you ??


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## Soifon (Oct 5, 2012)

In all honesty I don't think you are going to get an uncensored version of his phone records even if you get them at all. I would see a major benefit of contacting the OW's H and bringing this to his attention, possibly asking him if he has access to her phone records and if he could confirm for you if it was in fact one phone call. He could really help you. I feel like this was way more than one phone call and if you knew that it was wouldn't the weight you are putting on the risks be a lot different?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Soifon said:


> In all honesty I don't think you are going to get an uncensored version of his phone records even if you get them at all. I would see a major benefit of contacting the OW's H and bringing this to his attention, possibly asking him if he has access to her phone records and if he could confirm for you if it was in fact one phone call. He could really help you. I feel like this was way more than one phone call and if you knew that it was wouldn't the weight you are putting on the risks be a lot different?


Yes, but she then knows where she stands in her H's priority list. She also learns his level of honest as well.

I agree with your contact idea.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Well, a lot has happened in one week. I did decide to contact the husband. I sent a very appropriate email, just asking him why he asked her to unfriend my husband, and to ask if there was something more I needed to know that he knew about. I did not share details of what I already know, b/c I do not know this man and crimes of passion DO happen. I could never live with myself if something happened to my husband b/c I just HAD to know the whole story. I decided that was more important to me than the other man deserving to know the full truth. You can think what you want of me for that decision, but that is the judgement call that I made. 

I also wanted to get my husband to agree to me sending an email to the other spouse. This would show me that he indeed was no longer protecting her, b/c if I called attention to the relationship between them, it surely would make it very difficult and risky for her to contact him again. Not impossible, I know, but extra insurance.

When I first told my husband of my intent to write her spouse, he became extremely angry and defensive. RED FLAG. I told him this indicated he was hiding something and was still protecting her. He denied this, said he just didn't want to bring down another relationship over "just a phone call" that did not develop into anything further. I told him I had no way of knowing if that was true until I received confirmation from her husband about why he asked her to unfriend him. My husband calmed down in a few minutes and said if I really felt the need to contact him, he didn't agree, but he wanted me to have closure and to go ahead. I felt like this was great progress - a sign that he was ready to do whatever it took to prove he is committed to ME, not her. 

So I wrote the letter and sent it. What a feeling of power and control it gave me! I was on cloud 9 all day. And then the response came. Her husband was mean and cruel to me. Details in a moment. 

Our marriage counselor read both my letter and his response. She said my letter showed amazing restraint and control and was a testament to my character. I did not say anything bad at all about the OW. In fact I said I hoped I was worried about nothing at all and just wanted reassurance. I said I hoped that they were very happy and wasn't trying to stir anything up between them. Our marriage counselor said his response was that of a crazy wacko person, and showed he is the one with the issue, and obviously there are deeper issues with them b/c he was so defensive.

Anyways, he wrote me back saying the letter was inappropriate. He said the only reason he was writing me back was b/c the OW (his wife) felt sorry for me in my desperate efforts to find fault with my husband (yep, that pissed me off royally...I'm sure her ego was fed by the letter - <sigh>). He then said, if my husband did contact her, he didn't blame my husband b/c his wife is a great lady, but he trusts her. He said their marriage was none of my business and what goes on between them had nothing to do with me and my insecurities. And then he said contacting a perfect stranger about things that aren't any of my business makes me just as odd as the email.

Nice, huh? Uh, he could have truly felt sorry for me and just reassured me that he knew of nothing more between his wife and my hubby. Instead he became extremely angry, defensive, and attacking of my personal character under the guise of "feeling sorry for me" which really was just another insult to throw at me. So, this response showed me his volatile character, and I am very glad I did not tell him all that I know. He is a wild card, mean, and doesn't deserve to know the truth about his wife. They deserve each other. 

That feels good.

So anyways, here is what has gone on since between hubby and I since. We had two marriage counseling sessions which were FANTASTIC. We have been listening to the book "NOT Just Friends" together. 

I had a very nice two hour walk by myself Saturday where I came to some big conclusions and then had a good talk Sat eve with hubby. I told him all of the following. It doesn’t matter WHY he emotionally cheated, it’s the fact that 1) he did it 2) he lied to me 3) he betrayed me. There is and never will be any justification to be made for it. It shows me our value systems do not mesh, I don’t believe ever in lying or deceiving, no matter what the circumstances. It was disrespectful to me and to our vows to honor each other. He used his sneaky traits on ME. I very much dislike this part of him, even though the rest of him remains a very good man. 

He acknowledged it was all true. He said he will never lie or hide anything from me again, but understands those are just words and he has to prove himself to me again over time. He knows it was very, very wrong. I told him I need him to do some more self-exploration as to why he felt the need to lie to me about things and hide things from me, and why he thought that was ok. I told him he needs to look at his morals/integrity and reevaluate who he wants to be from here on out. 

I was really starting to heal yesterday…really…then I found out more details which have crushed me.

Last night after listening to more of the NOT Just Friends book, we talked some more. He had been drinking some, so I think that lowered his defenses. He admitted to me the “tone” of the conversation between them was inappropriate. He said they didn’t tell each other they loved each other or talk about rekindling. When I asked him to explain what he meant by the tone being inappropriate, he said he realizes he spoke to her with tenderness – spoke to her in a way that he speaks to me…and he knows it was very, very wrong to speak to another woman that way and apologized deeply for it. He said he knows speaking that way should only be reserved for me. He said he was so very sorry for bringing another woman into our lives. He said he is so very, very sorry for hurting me so bad. 

He admitted when they talked, it didn’t seem at all like 20 years had passed; it seemed like it only had been a week since they last talked. <tears> He said they both promised they would be friends forever. So I guess this is the “promise”. In previous confessions to me, he said they didn’t tell each other they love each other, but did say “you will always have a friend that loves you”. So what’s the difference? At a minimum, they made a promise to love each other as "friends" forever...and this promise was repeated even after being married to me for 20 years. <tears> 

He said he now has let her go, she is someone he loved in the past, and maybe represents a part of his youth that he has had to say goodbye to. He reassured me he loves me and only me. He says he doesn’t even know “who that 50 year old woman is now” and admits the 18 year old boy in him was in love with the 18 year old girl he knew. He reassures me he does not regret not marrying her. He again says he wants to do a lie detector test to prove this to me. I told him go ahead if he wants to. I believe there was nothing more than that phone call and a few inappropriate emails. What I don't know is if she is truly out of his heart, if he has truly let her go. No lie detector test is going to give me confirmation of that. To go forward, I have to go on blind faith that he has let her go. I have to have courage to take that leap of faith, and possibly be crushed again in the future. I am so afraid. 

He admitted there was sexual attraction/excitement in the air as they spoke. <tears> He said this is why he has never let himself be around her in person, b/c he didn’t want to put himself in that type of tempting situation. He admits she was flirtatious with him, and that it was inappropriate for her to be flirtatious with a married man. He said if she did come on to him in person, he does believe he would be able to stop it, but he didn’t ever want to put himself in that situation. So he deliberately avoided ever seeing her in person over the past 30 years. This woman is a huge threat to us. 

So, his heart did indeed cheat on me. Even after 20 years of building a life with me, he forgot about me for those few minutes of that phone call, enough to lie to me, deceive me, call her behind my back, and talk to her tenderly in a way that is supposed to be reserved for me. I do not feel like I was loved exclusively at all in my marriage. I feel like he has always been in love with 2 women. And now I am supposed to believe she is out of his heart, that I am the only one. How do I do that? 

I keep trying to remember that he finally agreed I could write her husband, which shows he chose cutting ties with her forever in order to keep me. Thank God he agreed to it, and that I had the insight to know it was important to get his "permission" b/c it showed to what lengths he was willing to go to to keep me. I keep trying to remember how he is going to counseling and doing everything he knows to help heal my heart, including searching his own heart deeply. He is listening to “NOT Just Friends” in the car with me on our road trips. He keeps telling me he loves me and only me. At my request, he is going to work on writing a “goodbye” letter to her – one that won’t be sent, since her husband is wacko, but one that will let me hopefully see he has finally achieved emotional closure after 30 years. I hope I can believe what he writes in that letter, since I know he knows it will never be sent. But I don't think it is safe for him to send it. I won't risk my husband's safety to get my closure. I do fear her husband is wacko and people do crazy things in "crimes of passion". I know how much this pushed me, and how hard I have had to work to restrain myself. Nope. Not going there. I know many of you may disagree. 

These are all things he is doing do to try and heal our relationship. I just need to keep remembering them when I am hurting. 

He said it upsets him so that over the past 2 years we really bonded even more during my cancer treatment, and now something he did prior to that cheapens it all. He said he felt like the one good thing that came out of all that I went through was that we became even closer…and now that’s been destroyed by his one stupid phone call. He said he never told me, but although he’s not religious at all, he actually prayed to God many times “Please, just let her live”. All of this touched my heart deeply. Yet there is small part of me that wonders if he treated me so incredibly well b/c of guilt related to that phone call. I feel awful saying that. I truly don’t think that’s fair, b/c he treated me amazingly before my diagnosis, but I can’t help but think it in a small corner of my mind. Doubt about his devotion to me has indeed crept in. His transgression does cheapen all that he has done for me over the years. He is angry that he doesn’t get “credit” for being an incredible man to me in every other way over the past 20 years. He is right to be angry. Yet I am right to feel my feelings, too. It is all so confusing. 

I tried to stay neutral as he was sharing the details with me about her, but God it hurt so bad. I couldn’t not react, not be sad and angry all over again. And he said “So this is what I get for being honest with you.” So I apologized, just said I was human and was hurting incredibly to hear how much he loved her and that he spoke to her like he spoke to me. He acknowledged that, but I’m afraid it set us back further. I told him I need him to continue to be honest with me, open, and vulnerable. I told him I need him to grieve letting go of her emotionally, b/c then I know it is real closure on his part. But god it hurts. So bad. 

A promise to be there now and forever to each other, even if it was just for “friendship” is unbelievably inappropriate, especially when there is sexual attraction and emotional connection and secrecy involved. A promise like that is made to your spouse, and your spouse only. That is the promise you make on your wedding day, which is supposed to be upheld and not forgotten, even if only for a 15 minute phone call. *You cannot make a forever promise to two women. *

I will say that he suggested on our 20 year wedding anniversary (in 2 years) he wants to renew our wedding vows. He came up with this all on his own. God, he really is trying. How can I vacillate so wildly between loving him and hating him, from one minute to the next? Such cruel torture this is. Cruel. 

I am crushed, hurt beyond I have ever hurt before. I am glad he could be so honest with me, and I know it shows he truly is processing his emotional closure/saying goodbye to her – but my heart aches to know I have spent 20+ years with someone who still was in love with an old girlfriend – but he had just pushed it down very deeply. I feel like a part of me has died. I’m afraid I am falling out of love with him. That scares me so much, so very much. 

But then I tell myself...as my marriage counselor told me...forgiveness is not for him, it is for ME. If I can't find some way to forgive him and trust him again, and I either continue on with walls up against him or we break up, then the OW has indeed "won". I won't let her win. She will NOT ruin my marriage. However, I'm not forcing any feelings of reconciliation. I am going to be patient with myself. I need time for this deep wound to heal. I just hope it does.

Can't imagine how bad this would be if it were more than emotional infidelity that was cut short after a phone call. My heart aches for all of you who have been betrayed on an ever deeper level. This is the most painful thing I have ever been through in my life, more painful than getting my cancer diagnosis and fearing for my life. Betrayal, on any level, is a cruel, cruel thing. 

Thank you all for being great listeners and supporters.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

I wouldn't be surprised if the response you received was actually from the OW, and not the husband. Perhaps she intercepted your letter? 

Your husband seems remorseful, and I am hoping you will be able to recover.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Aunt Ava said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the response you received was actually from the OW, and not the husband. Perhaps she intercepted your letter?
> 
> Your husband seems remorseful, and I am hoping you will be able to recover.


I wouldn't be surprised, either, kinda suspect it myself. I figure either way, she got the message that contacting him ever again is a very bad idea...AKA...I will out her.


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## brokenhearted2 (Aug 23, 2012)

Aunt Ava said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the response you received was actually from the OW, and not the husband. Perhaps she intercepted your letter?
> 
> Your husband seems remorseful, and I am hoping you will be able to recover.


I thought the same thing- it sounds like the OW crafted that letter. Somehow, it just doesn't sound like something a man would write, or he got it, showed his wife, she convinced him you're crazy and they wrote the letter together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

Aunt Ava said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if the response you received was actually from the OW, and not the husband. Perhaps she intercepted your letter?
> 
> Your husband seems remorseful, and I am hoping you will be able to recover.


I was thinking the exact same thing!


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Yep, nothing I can do about it either way, but I got my point across...I WILL contact hubby if any future contact is discovered by me, and I AM on alert and vigilant. Warning shot fired, and fired really close to her security blanket. Mwa ha ha. 

She can take shots at me all she wants. I'm the grown up here, and I believe in myself and my character. Hope to never have her interfere in our lives again.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Hey all. This is a letter to my hubby that i just wrote. Not sure I am going to share it with him. Will think about it, ask my therapist, etc...but curious what your thoughts are about it...
--------------------
I love you. I love you for who you are, not because you love me. I love you for the man that you are. You are so generous with others. You truly care about others and will be there for them no matter what. You are dedicated to those you love. Perhaps that is why you remained dedicated to *** after 30 years and told her even just as recently as Sept 2012 that you would always be there for her. I know you continued to love her, even after your phone conversation 2 years ago when you said you got "closure". I don't think you truly got closure after that phone call. I know this b/c you still promised to be there for her forever just this past September. I know you loved us both, at the same time, for the last 20 years. It is the sad truth and breaks my heart. It wasn't until I discovered your phone call and you saw how much pain I am in that you decided you had to try to let her go. 

It is not right to make a vow to me, while keeping your dedication to her in your heart, hidden away. You cannot make a forever promise to two women. Sometimes you do have to choose, and this is one of those cases. I thought you made that choice 20 years ago, like I did for ***. But I was wrong. You kept her in your heart. It was hidden deep down, but she was there. All it took was a reconnection to rekindle your love for her. 

You have such great character. You make me laugh, every day. You are so smart. You are such a great provider, and have always taken care of me so well, and yes, spoiled me. I am so proud to know you and the man that I have watched you grow into over the years. The only part of you I don’t like is your sneaky, deceptive, lying side. It hurts me to even say that. Yet I can still love you despite that character trait, as long as you commit to working on understanding why you thought it was ok to deceive and betray me. And as long as you promise me you will never hide anything from me ever again. No more lying. No more half-truths. No more “she’ll never find out so it’s ok.” Never again. As you know, I will not tolerate being deceived ever again. 

If you truly cannot let *** go from your heart, even as a forever friend that you love – then please, please be honest about that and let me go. I deserve to be your ONLY forever friend. I know you are a good man. If you can’t honestly say to me that you’ve let her go, then as much as it kills me to say it - let me go. I don’t want to wake up another 20 years from now to discover that you still secretly love her, even just a little bit. I’ve already shared your heart with her for 20+ years, and that is so unbelievably not fair to me, even if she only had a little bit of it. I deserve to be loved exclusively. And if you can’t give me that, please be honest. It will be the kindest thing to be honest with me, in the long run, even though it will hurt me terribly. Please don’t stay with me b/c you love me and feel sorry for me and don’t want to hurt me. Please stay with me because you love me, and ONLY me. Please be honest with yourself and me and make the decision that is best for both of us. Only you know what is in your heart. Only you can decide our future. Please be honest with both yourself and me if you don’t think you can commit 100% to me. That is what I deserve. I am willing to recommit everything to you and risk my heart being crushed again. That takes great courage on my part. I am trusting you now to be honest with me about the most important thing ever – whether you love me enough to truly let her go from your heart. It’s all in your hands.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think writing all this down must be cathartic and helpful. You can give it to him or not. Either way it will help you.

Your H now has come completely clean, it seems, and knows that the meaning of this wasn't just 'a phone call.' What he has done is struck at a core foundational element of your love. This is what he hasn't been understanding.

He probably has killed some of your feeling for him with his behavior. But - and this is so important - this doesn't have to stay dead for you. He can work to rebuild your relationship & seems very much like he wants the chance to try to do this.

If I am completely honest about my reaction to this, I will tell you that I don't believe that he has been in love with two woman all these years. I believe he has been in love with you. His behavior indicates that to me. I think he followed the excitement and ego thrill of still being attractive to an old flame and didn't think hard enough to pull himself back from this. It was impulsive and ego-stroking and he compartmentalized it away, in my opinion. When people respond unthinkingly to these things they are swept away by a secret fantasy & when the spouse discovers it, they are delivered a huge helping of reality: they are smacked back into their real lives where they immediately recognize who they really love and what is important to them.

One of the things you will see here often is that people who are in deep in EAs are oblivious to the hurt they are causing their spouses. Your H seems very tuned to your hurt.

So...I would hope that you can try to go day to day letting him try his best to show you his love. I really think he has always wanted and loved you. His behavior points to that, in my opinion.


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## Soifon (Oct 5, 2012)

First, I don't like the letter. I think there are way too many compliments and praises on him. Don't try to make him feel good about himself, he should be doing all of that for YOU! Not the other way around.

Second, I feel like his new admission just shows an even stronger case that this was not just one phone call. No way all of that happened in one phone call. Unfortunately I get the feeling that the phone records from his company will just be swept under the rug and he will never bring them up again if you don't ask. I don't think getting those is in the works at all. It seems to not matter too much though I mean, you have no proof of anything and will not get proof of anything at this point. I think you should take him up on his lie detector suggestion. I think a lot of cheaters throw it out there to make themselves appear more trustworthy thinking you won't call their bluff, they think they can beat it or they know they can throw out that they aren't 100% accurate anyway so there is no real danger to it. 

I just don't believe any of this at all. If the response was from the OW's husband it just goes to show that she made you out to be a crazy person. Which if her and your husband are just BFF's then why would she have so much hatred for you? The same can be said for if she intercepted it. Either way it just shows to me that this was way deeper then he is letting on to or even that you are suspicious of.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I think writing all this down must be cathartic and helpful. You can give it to him or not. Either way it will help you.
> 
> Your H now has come completely clean, it seems, and knows that the meaning of this wasn't just 'a phone call.' What he has done is struck at a core foundational element of your love. This is what he hasn't been understanding.
> 
> ...



Your post brings tears to my eyes. Thank you. I so hope you are right. It's what I want to believe, I just don't want to deceive myself. I am going to give him plenty of time to rebuild with me. Thank you again, so much.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Your roller coaster of loving him/hating him is so normal and many of us are on that perpetual ride that hopefully ends with time. Even after a year of dealing with a spouse who had a EA, I can still get hit with that feeling. When we are having a good time, laughing or having a quiet dinner together, the moment can be tainted and I remember how he wanted to walk away from us.....for someone he didn't even know. It's haunting. 

Collateral damage of affairs, like tentacles that reach into all areas of the rebuilding to punch you and remind you how fragile it all is. 

You spouse sounds like he's doing so much to help in healing. In fact it seems rather rare, some spouse just prefer to rug sweep.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Soifon said:


> First, I don't like the letter. I think there are way too many compliments and praises on him. Don't try to make him feel good about himself, he should be doing all of that for YOU! Not the other way around.
> 
> Second, I feel like his new admission just shows an even stronger case that this was not just one phone call. No way all of that happened in one phone call. Unfortunately I get the feeling that the phone records from his company will just be swept under the rug and he will never bring them up again if you don't ask. I don't think getting those is in the works at all. It seems to not matter too much though I mean, you have no proof of anything and will not get proof of anything at this point. I think you should take him up on his lie detector suggestion. I think a lot of cheaters throw it out there to make themselves appear more trustworthy thinking you won't call their bluff, they think they can beat it or they know they can throw out that they aren't 100% accurate anyway so there is no real danger to it.
> 
> I just don't believe any of this at all. If the response was from the OW's husband it just goes to show that she made you out to be a crazy person. Which if her and your husband are just BFF's then why would she have so much hatred for you? The same can be said for if she intercepted it. Either way it just shows to me that this was way deeper then he is letting on to or even that you are suspicious of.


Thank you for your honest feedback. 

I'm reading a book on Being Love vs Need Love (Intimacy After Infidelity). That's why all the love comments from me. I may or may not keep them; I may never even show him this letter. As alte dame said, it may serve just to be a therapeutic exercise for me. 

I will take him up on the lie detector test. I'm waiting to see if he actually moves forward on it himself. It shouldn't be me that jumps through hoops to get it. So we'll see. 

Phone records should be in within this week or next. 

At some point you have to go with blind faith in the person. If I have the courage to do that, I will either end up very happy again or will get burned even worse. 

If I don't have the courage to get burned worse, and instead insist there is more to the story than can never be proven, then my marriage is over - and maybe all for naught. 

It takes a lot of courage to rebuild and try to trust again. That's what I'm trying to do. At this point trying to dig for more isn't going to be productive nor therapeutic, IMO. I have to make a choice to either move forward and risk getting hurt again, or keep spinning my wheels suspiciously. I have chosen the former. God I hope I'm right. It's not a choice I have made lightly.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

So don't drop the ball on the poly & get the phone records. Then if/when things look like he's been completely aboveboard, you can go ahead with not-so-blind faith.

Keep us posted.


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

4getmenot said:


> Well, a lot has happened in one week. I did decide to contact the husband. I sent a very appropriate email, just asking him why he asked her to unfriend my husband, and to ask if there was something more I needed to know that he knew about. I did not share details of what I already know, b/c I do not know this man and crimes of passion DO happen. I could never live with myself if something happened to my husband b/c I just HAD to know the whole story. I decided that was more important to me than the other man deserving to know the full truth. You can think what you want of me for that decision, but that is the judgement call that I made.
> 
> I also wanted to get my husband to agree to me sending an email to the other spouse. This would show me that he indeed was no longer protecting her, b/c if I called attention to the relationship between them, it surely would make it very difficult and risky for her to contact him again. Not impossible, I know, but extra insurance.
> 
> ...


You are telling my story, my STBXH has been in love with a girl from his youth the entire time we've been married, and he's been seeing her, calling and texting the past 13 yrs too. All without me knowing until recently.

Makes me feel sick, I thought we were in love, everything I knew about my marriage was ripped away instantly and it's not ever coming back.


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

4getmenot said:


> Hey all. This is a letter to my hubby that i just wrote. Not sure I am going to share it with him. Will think about it, ask my therapist, etc...but curious what your thoughts are about it...
> --------------------
> I love you. I love you for who you are, not because you love me. I love you for the man that you are. You are so generous with others. You truly care about others and will be there for them no matter what. You are dedicated to those you love. Perhaps that is why you remained dedicated to *** after 30 years and told her even just as recently as Sept 2012 that you would always be there for her. I know you continued to love her, even after your phone conversation 2 years ago when you said you got "closure". I don't think you truly got closure after that phone call. I know this b/c you still promised to be there for her forever just this past September. I know you loved us both, at the same time, for the last 20 years. It is the sad truth and breaks my heart. It wasn't until I discovered your phone call and you saw how much pain I am in that you decided you had to try to let her go.
> 
> ...


You can forbid him to contact her, tell him its her or me, but it doesn't make an ounce of difference if he doesn't want to do it.

You can't make someone feel something they don't or to stop feeling something they do.

I gave my husband those choices and he said "I've got to let YOU go". Don't expect him to do what you think he may do, because he may do what you don't want to hear.

I've seen an attorney and started the divorce paperwork. I will never be someone else's 2nd choice, even if that person is my child's father, and I will never be lied to and deceived again. Its intolerable.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

I'm so sorry brokenbythis, so, so sorry. OMG, the pain, I so understand it. 

I told me husband last night that I will never know his heart, and if he still loves her, even as a friend, then the honorable thing to do is: if you can't let her go, let me go. I told him I want the truth, it will hurt me incredibly, but I will be ok - but that I have decided I deserve to be loved exclusively. 

He said he stopped any love he had for her once I found out about the phone call. He has realized over the last month that he has taken me for granted, and that what he was reaching for when he called her was nostalgia - a connection to his youth. He said he was sad when she unfriended him last fall. 

So, he continues to sound very repentant and like he has put their relationship in the past. I am going on blind faith that this is true, and told him that - and that I know I will either be blissfully happy the rest of my life or get burnt really, really bad again. He said he is so, so sorry I got burnt in the first place. 

So we'll see. Trust but verify, is what I have learned. Either decision I make is a big risk for me. I know what I am risking, I don't fully trust yet, but hoping with time things will get better. 

I will never forget, though, and I am a changed person after all of this. One good thing is I have learned I am too dependent and have subverted my needs/likes etc. over the years. That is changing already, and I have made him aware that I am changed now. I will no longer be a conflict avoider by going along with what he wants to keep the peace. And I have asked him to no longer be a conflict avoider by hiding things from me to avoid an argument.


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## darklilly23 (May 26, 2013)

Thank you for your story 4getmenot, it is very much like mine. I sent you a pm.


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