# Need help. I really don't see this as an attack.



## chumpaward

I'm 54 and this was my first marriage. My wife is 62 and has been married and divorced several times . My wife and I divorced in 2016. In October of 2020 my son who she lives with told me she kept mentioning she wished I would ask her out again. I did, and fell madly in love with her again after 6 months of dating. Then suddenly I felt her getting distant, and after a week she told me she felt God telling her she wasn't meant to date right now. We are christian and we didn't do anything physical that entire time other than kiss and cuddle. She kept inviting me to do things as friends, but no holding hands, kissing, just hang out. It was killing me to be with her and not hold her hand, kiss her. I told her how I felt and she sent me this email. I replied with comments to each paragraph and her response has me baffled. I'm sharing this conversation in hopes the ladies here can help me as I am a clueless man. See below:

--------------email------------------------
I thought it would help clear up my confusion if I tried to respond in this way.
* 
I just want Gods will whatever that looks like for me and you. I love you very much and it would be very painful to lose the friendship that I have for you or to see you be with someone else.
*
I understand this to mean: I love you as a friend, but it would still hurt to see you with someone else.
I understand. As I feel the same about you accept I love you as more than a friend. When we divorced I went through a time that changed how I felt for you. I had no attraction to you at all, and never thought I could again. Then when I finally decided to ask you out and open myself to the idea something changed. I saw you again as the woman I fell in love with years ago.
* 
I just know in my heart that God does not want me with anyone right now and I have to follow that. It has been very hard for me to accept and I was mad at you for not wanting us to be together since we broke up.*

The letter you sent to break up said “maybe we can do things together from time to time”. I felt this meant: I care about you as a friend, but don’t feel the same desire to be with you often. After I already felt you were not where I was at in the relationship this confirmed it for me. I had the feeling you were trying to show me you cared, but didn’t really feel the same. Once I fell in love with you again I wanted to be with you as much as we could, and talk to you often. I felt even then that you did not feel the same.
* 

I don't understand the change in my heart but I have to trust what God puts in there for me to obey. I really hope we can be friends but I will respect what you need to do for you. 
*
I understand this “change in your heart” to mean you do not feel physically attracted to me. I started to see it before you broke up with me. You did not seem to feel the desire to reach out and hold my hand, or when we kissed it felt like you didn’t really desire it. I see how (daughter in law) is always hugging (my son), and touching him. We had that in the very beginning of our relationship the first time. I remember brushing my teeth and you coming up behind me and touching my shoulders and caressing me. That’s how I felt about you recently. I just wanted to touch you all the time. I could see it was more of an effort for you to do that to me than a natural inclination to do so.
* 

I have never stopped praying for you and your family and I won't stop praying for you all. I love you (my name) and I pray that God puts His desires in your heart for you to follow. Only then will we experience completeness deep in our souls.
*
I know you are capable of being the “touchy feely” type when you really fall in love with someone, but apparently I am not that guy. I wanted to believe it was possible, but after our talk last night it hit me. I was seeing something that is not there. Something in me just clicked, and I felt it break. On the drive home I felt that feeling were I begin cutting something out of me that doesn’t belong there. I’ve gotten pretty good at it over the years. (my friend) taught me well in how to see the truth and stop being a romantic fool. I had a heart like (our childs name) for so many years, and was a fool. I can be friends with you and we can still do things every once in a while. What makes it hard is that we usually are doing it with our family which sets this framework around it like we are a “family” and these are our kids. It’s kind of a mind f(k for me. For lack of a better term. I’m going to need some time to fully cut this out of my heart and get back to where I was before I entertained the idea we could be something. Back to where I was before I dated you. I have been praying for God to show me what he wanted for me. I thought for sure this relationship was his will. It felt so right because of all we had in common. I thought he was telling me to repair what I broke. Me being the broken person I am didn’t do too well at it, but I thought I was supposed to keep trying. Now I realize it was one of the moments where I was deceiving myself.

There is going to be a time where we have to see each other with another person. It will probably be easier for you since you’ve dealt with it a few times, but we both will get over it and still be friends. We will always be friends. No worries. I’m guessing it will take a few dates with someone else for me to really break the attachment I’ve had to you. I was just being a romantic fool and didn’t realize it. This notion that there is one person for you in the world was some childish thing I had stuck in my brain.

So I get it. You don’t have those feelings for me, and had trouble telling me. You didn’t want to affect our friendship. We are good. We are friends. I’ll see you from time to time.
Take care (wifes name), and I’ll be praying for you and the family too.

-------end email--------------

her response was:

-------email ----------
Hi (my name),

I don’t quite have the time to comment on everything but I definitely know you came to some conclusions on your own accusing me of feelings and thoughts that I don’t have.

I find you very handsome and attractive. I think we have a lot in common and can definitely have a lasting relationship except for one thing. I feel like I have to defend myself. I can’t have my most intimate relationship second guessing my intentions and attacking me. It’s exhausting for me.

I’m so sorry Chris. I know that’s not what God wants for either of us. I just wanted to be honest with you. I hope you’re not mad at me. If you want, I’ll re-read this later when I have more time to comment on each thing. I love you!!
(wifes name)

----- end email--------------------

First thing I noticed was "i dont have time..." we all have time in our lives and we chose where to spend it based on our priorities. I am not a priority to her.
I basically was giving her what she wanted. I was saying goodbye, but telling her why. Her response is cryptic. Does the email sound like an attack? Is she saying she wants me to wait for her? so I replied with this:

I wanted to say "if your to busy to read this then I have my answer, but instead;

-----email-------------
If this is too long and you don't have time to read it. That's fine. Just let me know. What part of what i wrote sounded like I was attacking you? That wasn't my intention at all. I thought I was telling you how I understood the meaning behind what we talked about and how I read your body language over the relationship. I am sharing my most intimate feelings and thoughts so you may understand what I thought it meant. I think when someone is attracted and loves another person its usually obvious by the amount they touch them. That's all I was saying. I felt your lack of touch later in the relationship was a sign you have withdrawn or lost your feelings for me. Also, if your perfectly fine with me dating someone else then your not where I was at. That's basically what I was saying. If what I wrote sounded like I was attacking you then I'm sorry. I thought it would help to be completely honest about how I felt, but I'm at a loss now. I don't understand how trying to clarify what I thought is attacking. If your in a place where you don't feel like you can be completely clear about things then that's fine, but when I try to understand better and tell you how I feel its not meant to attack you.
I'll just ask direct questions instead.
Do you love me as more than a friend?
Do you have a hard time not holding my hand or cuddling with me when I'm with you?
Do you have hope I will wait for you instead of dating other women?
These are the basic things I need to know to make a decision. I went the long way about it telling you my thoughts.
Don't worry about reading through it again and commenting on it. That's fine.
I do love you very much which is why this is difficult for me. I don't want to move on, but I've finally learned to stop fighting for someone who is ok with losing me. If your not ok with losing me I need to know. That's basically it.
I hope this doesn't sound attacking. I honestly don't see that it is. I'm just trying to make a decision and need the facts to do it.
---email---------

I'm honestly confused. Can someone help me understand the ladies mind. Is this her way of breaking up, but not wanting to be the "bad guy". Is she just hoping i'll move along without her explicitly saying it?


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## Mr.Married

Your a complete chump. Your so far in the friend zone that even God knows you ain’t gettin’ none. That woman is such a dead end that you would have to be the most desperate fool on the face of the earth to keep arriving at her relationship gate of hell.

I christen thee: Giant Chump _sprinkles unholy water_


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## Andy1001

What he said.^^^^^


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## Diana7

If God is telling her not to date you then it may well be because she doesn't seem to be able to maintain any sort of healthy relationship or marriage. She may well need to remain single from now on. You say she has been married and divorced several times!?!?.How many? That is not a sign of an emotionally healthy person.
The mistake you made was dating her again after the divorce. As I see it she doesn't want you in that way, but won't fully let you go because she hates the thought of you dating anyone else. That's very selfish.
For your own good stop contact, you are not married, and move on.


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## chumpaward

Mr.Married said:


> Your a complete chump. Your so far in the friend zone that even God knows you ain’t gettin’ none. That woman is such a dead end that you would have to be the most desperate fool on the face of the earth to keep arriving at her relationship gate of hell.
> 
> I christen thee: Giant Chump _sprinkles unholy water_


Lmao, I know, but I was honestly ok with that if she was willing to spend the rest of our lives together. We were married 16 years, and she is my closest friend. Yes, all hail the giant chump.


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## chumpaward

Diana7 said:


> If God is telling her not to date you then it may well be because she doesn't seem to be able to maintain any sort of healthy relationship or marriage. She may well need to remain single from now on. You say she has been married and divorced several times!?!?.How many? That is not a sign of an emotionally healthy person.
> The mistake you made was dating her again after the divorce. As I see it she doesn't want you in that way, but won't fully let you go because she hates the thought of you dating anyone else. That's very selfish.
> For your own good stop contact, you are not married, and move on.


3 times before. Yes, and her being 8 years older with 4 children when we married makes me somewhat of a unicorn.


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## Diana7

chumpaward said:


> 3 times before. Yes, and her being 8 years older with 4 children when we married makes me somewhat of a unicorn.


3 times before your divorce? So twice before she met you?
8 years isn't too much of a gap and many do marry people with children.


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## Mr.Married

Your worse off than I even thought. How many different ways is she going to have to tell you she isn’t interested for you to get the message? At this point there is likely even a biblical passage that says “And she sayth to thou ...... I be not interested! “


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## chumpaward

Diana7 said:


> 3 times before your divorce? So twice before she met you?
> 8 years isn't too much of a gap and many do marry people with children.


I was her 4th marriage.


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## chumpaward

Mr.Married said:


> Your worse off than I even thought. How many different ways is she going to have to tell you she isn’t interested for you to get the message? At this point there is likely even a biblical passage that says “And she sayth to thou ...... I be not interested! “


Then why is she always asking me to over? I have left it. I ignore her. She has initiated every conversation or invite. that it whats so confusing.


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## Mr.Married

chumpaward said:


> I was her 4th marriage.


😳


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## Mr.Married

chumpaward said:


> Then why is she always asking me to over? I have left it. I ignore her. She has initiated every conversation or invite. that it whats so confusing.


Because she doesn’t want you nor want any other woman to have you as well ...... your like a play toy she can control. Which by the way is the last thing any woman really wants ....... unless of course all she wants is a subservient toy. Your filling that role pretty good now that I think about it


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## chumpaward

Diana7 said:


> If God is telling her not to date you then it may well be because she doesn't seem to be able to maintain any sort of healthy relationship or marriage. She may well need to remain single from now on. You say she has been married and divorced several times!?!?.How many? That is not a sign of an emotionally healthy person.
> The mistake you made was dating her again after the divorce. As I see it she doesn't want you in that way, but won't fully let you go because she hates the thought of you dating anyone else. That's very selfish.
> For your own good stop contact, you are not married, and move on.


Thank you for the reply. I didn't think of that. Good insight. God is telling her that for my protection. thumbs up. I've made my decision. It done.


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## chumpaward

Mr.Married said:


> Because she doesn’t want you nor want any other woman to have you as well ...... your like a play toy she can control. Which by the way is the last thing any woman really wants ....... unless of course all she wants is a subservient toy. Your filling that role pretty good now that I think about it


Yah, i figured, but didn't think she was capable of being that way considering her relationship with God.


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## chumpaward

Mr.Married said:


> Because she doesn’t want you nor want any other woman to have you as well ...... your like a play toy she can control. Which by the way is the last thing any woman really wants ....... unless of course all she wants is a subservient toy. Your filling that role pretty good now that I think about it


She did tell me if God was leading me to date someone else, I should do it. Just mixed messages all around.


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## Openminded

chumpaward said:


> Then why is she always asking me to over? I have left it. I ignore her. She has initiated every conversation or invite. that it whats so confusing.


Because apparently at her age she’s not finding younger men as easily as she once did. You serve a purpose but what benefits her doesn’t necessarily benefit you.


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## Mr.Married

chumpaward said:


> Yah, i figured, but didn't think she was capable of being that way considering her relationship with God.


Your totally fooling yourself. You ever see those things covering a racehorse’s eyes. They are called blinders. You really need to take yours off and see this for what it is.


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## Openminded

Her fourth marriage? And you didn’t run? Yeah, you absolutely were a chump. Time to stop.


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## Mr.Married

chumpaward said:


> She did tell me if God was leading me to date someone else, I should do it. Just mixed messages all around.


That is NOT A MIXED MESSAGE!!!!!!! It is a direct .... direct .... DIRECT DIRECT DIRECT DIRECT .....MESSAGE !!!


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## Mr.Married

It isn’t a matter of me beating you down or you swallowing your pride. It’s a matter of having some respect for yourself and being able to recognize something for what it is. A woman that is interested will pursue you ..... she definitely is not interested..... at all...... not even a little.


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## Diana7

chumpaward said:


> I was her 4th marriage.


So when you met she was about 46 and had already been divorced three times. Did you not see that as a big red warning? 
It could be that God is saying to her, you haven been divorced 4 times, enough is enough. 
I do feel as if she is sort of hanging on because she hates the thought of you moving on. 
Can you see that is selfish? 
Have you spoken to anyone at your church about this?


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## Diana7

chumpaward said:


> Then why is she always asking me to over? I have left it. I ignore her. She has initiated every conversation or invite. that it whats so confusing.


Because she doesn't want to cut the final ties in case you move on. 
She wants you as a friend maybe so she can keep an eye on you. So she will know if you meet anyone else? 
It's best if you cut contact to be honest..


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## chumpaward

Mr.Married said:


> It isn’t a matter of me beating you down or you swallowing your pride. It’s a matter of having some respect for yourself and being able to recognize something for what it is. A woman that is interested will pursue you ..... she definitely is not interested..... at all...... not even a little.


Best answer yet! dead on. ok, I get it FINALLY! i'm done. its pretty dead in me anyways. Thank you, and to everyone on this site for your great replies. I need to find a chumps anonymous meeting somewhere.


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## Marc878

chumpaward said:


> I was her 4th marriage.


She’s been divorced 4 times for a reason. You should wake up now.

You can only be a chump if you allow it.


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## VladDracul

Chump, you're in your fifties. Why did you marry an old broad anyway? At 54 you should have a chick in her mid forties and maybe, in a pinch, early early fifties. When you're in your twenties and early thirties, an older hot babe is built and fun to handle. When you're 65 and she's closing in on her 80's, not so much.


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## Mr. Nail

I get the shivers reading her emails. Not so much mixed message as mixed personalities. I wouldn't be alone with her.


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## Diana7

VladDracul said:


> Chump, you're in your fifties. Why did you marry an old broad anyway? At 54 you should have a chick in her mid forties and maybe, in a pinch, early early fifties. When you're in your twenties and early thirties, an older hot babe is built and fun to handle. When you're 65 and she's closing in on her 80's, not so much.


Maybe he loved her? Two of the best marriage I know of were between couples where the lady was several years older than the man.


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## Bluesclues

What did you mean in your reply to her about “repairing what you broke” and being broken? Why did you divorce?


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## chumpaward

Marc878 said:


> She’s been divorced 4 times for a reason. You should wake up now.
> 
> You can only be a chump if you allow it.


Its complicated. We have 5 kids and 6 grandchildren between us. Bringing another woman into that was hard for me. When she wanted to date I thought it could be mended and it would make the kids feel better.


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## chumpaward

Diana7 said:


> Maybe he loved her? Two of the best marriage I know of were between couples where the lady was several years older than the man.


We had everything in common. It just clicked. It didn't hurt that she was a gorgeous, tall brunette.


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## Diana7

chumpaward said:


> We had everything in common. It just clicked. It didn't hurt that she was a gorgeous, tall brunette.


Yes but a massive red flag with three broken marriages and her only in her 40's.


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## Ursula

To be honest here, it sounds to me like she's more interested in her extremely close relationship with God than having another tangible, in-the-flesh relationship with you. I don't think you're a chump, as some have said, but I do think that you need to cut her loose once and for all. She seems to be leading you on, and as @Diana7 said, she doesn't want to see you with someone else, and that's selfish. And not very Godly to boot. You deserve better, and you deserve someone who wants to be with you and build a life with you.


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## Marc878

Gotta watch those Christians.
The only way to keep a Baptist preacher from drinking on a fishing trip is to take two of them. 😂😂😂😂


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## Marc878

Maybe you should try and start seeing what is versus what you want to see.


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## chumpaward

Diana7 said:


> So when you met she was about 46 and had already been divorced three times. Did you not see that as a big red warning?
> It could be that God is saying to her, you haven been divorced 4 times, enough is enough.
> I do feel as if she is sort of hanging on because she hates the thought of you moving on.
> Can you see that is selfish?
> Have you spoken to anyone at your church about this?


OK, some background. I knew her for about 5 years because we worked at the same company. I wasn't attracted to her. I knew she was married and that was that. The few times we interacted were usually at the copy machine. We would talk about scripture and ask how each others walk was going. I met her husband and kids at company picnics, and I always thought her husband was not a very nice guy. He seemed strange. he would stay at the car or off from the group in antisocial fashion. one day she asked me what drug addiction looked like because in one of our discussions about Jesus I shared how he freed me from meth in my youth when I accepted Him. She explained what was happening, and I told her the her husband was most likely using. On various occasions she would tell me how things were and it was getting bad. time went on we didn't talk much then one morning walking into work I bumped into her and she said she needed a hug. She said she was divorced from her husband and was going through hard times. I didn't see it then, but she was pursuing me. She asked me to have lunch with her to talk, and things went from there. She told me about her previous marriages, and had a sad story for all of them. First one cheated, second one was abusive, etc. I thought how could these men be so mean to such a wonderful woman. I honestly thought she was a catch. In short we married,a nd had one child between us. We did attend pre marital counseling at church before marrying, and had some counseling. Throughout our relationship I saw signs of why it was hard to resolve conflict with her. She would gaslight, project, and deflect often. After 16 years she left me to move in with her daughter after her daughters first born. It started with her needing to help her, then she would stay there for weeks at a time. When I asked when she was coming back home to stay she would project it an me as I am selfish for not wanting to help. My feelings were that both our daughter and son chose to have careers, and were very well to do. They could have chosen to have one work and the other stay home. We did in our marriage when the youngest was born she quit her job and we moved to a cheaper place. We made lifestyle changes to afford a single income life because we valued having her home with children. My daughter could have hired a nanny if that was what they wanted, but I wanted my wife back. 
In writing this above I realize how correct everyone is on this site. She didn't want me back then. she doesn't want me back now. I thought she changed because she seemed on our dates like she regretted everything and it was like the way it was when we first dated. Then the mixed messages started again. I'm just an absolute fool, and a chump. God must be trying to protect me as you say because I have been in capable of doing it myself. Yes, I have spoken to others at church and councilors. They told me to move on too. It was hard because I am the step dad to 4 of the kids, so now i'm on the outside of my family. They all tell em they love me and miss me, but she is doing stuff with them mostly. I get invited to the birthday parties.
Thank you Diana for some great incite. I know what I have to do.


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## chumpaward

Marc878 said:


> Maybe you should try and start seeing what is versus what you want to see.


your are dead on. thank you


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## chumpaward

Ursula said:


> To be honest here, it sounds to me like she's more interested in her extremely close relationship with God than having another tangible, in-the-flesh relationship with you. I don't think you're a chump, as some have said, but I do think that you need to cut her loose once and for all. She seems to be leading you on, and as @Diana7 said, she doesn't want to see you with someone else, and that's selfish. And not very Godly to boot. You deserve better, and you deserve someone who wants to be with you and build a life with you.


thank you, I agree. gonna move on.


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## Diana7

chumpaward said:


> OK, some background. I knew her for about 5 years because we worked at the same company. I wasn't attracted to her. I knew she was married and that was that. The few times we interacted were usually at the copy machine. We would talk about scripture and ask how each others walk was going. I met her husband and kids at company picnics, and I always thought her husband was not a very nice guy. He seemed strange. he would stay at the car or off from the group in antisocial fashion. one day she asked me what drug addiction looked like because in one of our discussions about Jesus I shared how he freed me from meth in my youth when I accepted Him. She explained what was happening, and I told her the her husband was most likely using. On various occasions she would tell me how things were and it was getting bad. time went on we didn't talk much then one morning walking into work I bumped into her and she said she needed a hug. She said she was divorced from her husband and was going through hard times. I didn't see it then, but she was pursuing me. She asked me to have lunch with her to talk, and things went from there. She told me about her previous marriages, and had a sad story for all of them. First one cheated, second one was abusive, etc. I thought how could these men be so mean to such a wonderful woman. I honestly thought she was a catch. In short we married,a nd had one child between us. We did attend pre marital counseling at church before marrying, and had some counseling. Throughout our relationship I saw signs of why it was hard to resolve conflict with her. She would gaslight, project, and deflect often. After 16 years she left me to move in with her daughter after her daughters first born. It started with her needing to help her, then she would stay there for weeks at a time. When I asked when she was coming back home to stay she would project it an me as I am selfish for not wanting to help. My feelings were that both our daughter and son chose to have careers, and were very well to do. They could have chosen to have one work and the other stay home. We did in our marriage when the youngest was born she quit her job and we moved to a cheaper place. We made lifestyle changes to afford a single income life because we valued having her home with children. My daughter could have hired a nanny if that was what they wanted, but I wanted my wife back.
> In writing this above I realize how correct everyone is on this site. She didn't want me back then. she doesn't want me back now. I thought she changed because she seemed on our dates like she regretted everything and it was like the way it was when we first dated. Then the mixed messages started again. I'm just an absolute fool, and a chump. God must be trying to protect me as you say because I have been in capable of doing it myself. Yes, I have spoken to others at church and councilors. They told me to move on too. It was hard because I am the step dad to 4 of the kids, so now i'm on the outside of my family. They all tell em they love me and miss me, but she is doing stuff with them mostly. I get invited to the birthday parties.
> Thank you Diana for some great incite. I know what I have to do.


Hopefully you can see the step children sometimes and presumably you see your own child?


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## chumpaward

Bluesclues said:


> What did you mean in your reply to her about “repairing what you broke” and being broken? Why did you divorce?


Our relationship was one where whenever I confronted her with facts or shared how i felt (as in the email) she would turn this on me and say I'm attacking her. She would gas light and say she never said something to the point I would record our conversations and play them back. This was also called attacking and abusive. she did this with the kids too. in the end she told all of our christian friends she left me because I was "verbally abusive". Notice the email? Notice how I treid to use words like "i feel" and "i think" in sentences. the counselors told us we should communicate this way to prevent blaming or attacking, so i tried. She would tell me the most ridiculous things were abuse. If I didn't understand why she was mad at me, and asked her questions that were looking for her to share feelings she would say this was abuse. When we went to counseling one time the councilor asked her how something made her feel. When she answered using a sentace that was not her feelings but a blaming sentence towards me, he would ask her again "how does it make you feel?" after that session she told me in the car she felt that was abusive and she would never go to him again. so, in my email saying "i want to fix what i broke" that was my attempt to avoid any blame on her because, as you see, my email was already seen as attack, and she believes the marriage was broken because of my actions. This was a hurdle I hoped to cross later as we grew closer. She has learned a lot since we divorced, and seemed at first to be ready to accept it as a mutual problem. at least until 6 months in when things changed.

I am moving on. I didn't do it earlier because of the kids. I tried again because I deeply love her, and the youngest is still hurting from our divorce. I thought this could mend all the pain, but that's not possible.


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## chumpaward

Diana7 said:


> Hopefully you can see the step children sometimes and presumably you see your own child?


My youngest moved away, but I have visited him three time already this year. the second youngest who was 2 when we married sees me as his father, and brings the wife and my grandson sometimes to visit. The three older kids I go to birthday parties, and some rare occasions other events liek a beach trip. I do get text from them from time to time letting me know they love me.


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## Diana7

chumpaward said:


> Our relationship was one where whenever I confronted her with facts or shared how i felt (as in the email) she would turn this on me and say I'm attacking her. She would gas light and say she never said something to the point I would record our conversations and play them back. This was also called attacking and abusive. she did this with the kids too. in the end she told all of our christian friends she left me because I was "verbally abusive". Notice the email? Notice how I treid to use words like "i feel" and "i think" in sentences. the counselors told us we should communicate this way to prevent blaming or attacking, so i tried. She would tell me the most ridiculous things were abuse. If I didn't understand why she was mad at me, and asked her questions that were looking for her to share feelings she would say this was abuse. When we went to counseling one time the councilor asked her how something made her feel. When she answered using a sentace that was not her feelings but a blaming sentence towards me, he would ask her again "how does it make you feel?" after that session she told me in the car she felt that was abusive and she would never go to him again. so, in my email saying "i want to fix what i broke" that was my attempt to avoid any blame on her because, as you see, my email was already seen as attack, and she believes the marriage was broken because of my actions. This was a hurdle I hoped to cross later as we grew closer. She has learned a lot since we divorced, and seemed at first to be ready to accept it as a mutual problem. at least until 6 months in when things changed.
> 
> I am moving on. I didn't do it earlier because of the kids. I tried again because I deeply love her, and the youngest is still hurting from our divorce. I thought this could mend all the pain, but that's not possible.


It's not hard to see why she is divorced so many times by what you say.


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## Diana7

chumpaward said:


> My youngest moved away, but I have visited him three time already this year. the second youngest who was 2 when we married sees me as his father, and brings the wife and my grandson sometimes to visit. The three older kids I go to birthday parties, and some rare occasions other events liek a beach trip. I do get text from them from time to time letting me know they love me.


That's good.


----------



## chumpaward

Thank you all for such great advice and information. I was blown away how active, and helpful this was. I am going to let her know we can remain friends, but will not go visit when she ask. I'm going to tell her I think its best if we just move on. I will see her at family events, and we can catch up then. It feels peaceful making this decision to stop the head games. Thank you again.


----------



## Luckylucky

I knew a lady like this, she’s in her 60s now and also 4 marriages behind her. Wowsers did she go through some good men!

Good news - all her exes happily remarried!

Ditch the chumps meeting and get out and meet good people! Friends family new women - she’s funny 😄 Yes, that’s a funny letter you’ve got to laugh at her insanity.

Be prepared for some rage soon though, I have an inkling these lovely God this God that letters will become venomous soon 😉

But you’re not going to get many of those venomous ones because you’ll block them. But you’ll hear from other people 😉

God wants you to move on and be happy, she’s right about that but not in the way she’s planned it… because she’s planned other things for you. Except you’re not having it, good luck, she gave you a huge gift, and God had nothing to do with it.


----------



## frusdil

chumpaward said:


> She did tell me if God was leading me to date someone else, I should do it. Just mixed messages all around.


The message is pretty clear actually.

1 - "God" isn't telling her anything, because there's no such thing

2 - She couldn't be clearer - she doesn't want you, but doesn't want you moving on either so she throws you some crumbs occasionally

3 - Stop this nonsense, the woman had been divorced not once, not twice but THREE times before you married her. Two divorces would give most people pause but three?? Are you insane? Now it's four!


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

chumpaward said:


> I'm 54 and this was my first marriage. My wife is 62 and has been married and divorced several times . My wife and I divorced in 2016. In October of 2020 my son who she lives with told me she kept mentioning she wished I would ask her out again. I did, and fell madly in love with her again after 6 months of dating. Then suddenly I felt her getting distant, and after a week she told me she felt God telling her she wasn't meant to date right now. We are christian and we didn't do anything physical that entire time other than kiss and cuddle. She kept inviting me to do things as friends, but no holding hands, kissing, just hang out. It was killing me to be with her and not hold her hand, kiss her. I told her how I felt and she sent me this email. I replied with comments to each paragraph and her response has me baffled. I'm sharing this conversation in hopes the ladies here can help me as I am a clueless man. See below:
> 
> --------------email------------------------
> I thought it would help clear up my confusion if I tried to respond in this way.
> *
> I just want Gods will whatever that looks like for me and you. I love you very much and it would be very painful to lose the friendship that I have for you or to see you be with someone else.*
> 
> I understand this to mean: I love you as a friend, but it would still hurt to see you with someone else.
> I understand. As I feel the same about you accept I love you as more than a friend. When we divorced I went through a time that changed how I felt for you. I had no attraction to you at all, and never thought I could again. Then when I finally decided to ask you out and open myself to the idea something changed. I saw you again as the woman I fell in love with years ago.
> *
> I just know in my heart that God does not want me with anyone right now and I have to follow that. It has been very hard for me to accept and I was mad at you for not wanting us to be together since we broke up.*
> 
> The letter you sent to break up said “maybe we can do things together from time to time”. I felt this meant: I care about you as a friend, but don’t feel the same desire to be with you often. After I already felt you were not where I was at in the relationship this confirmed it for me. I had the feeling you were trying to show me you cared, but didn’t really feel the same. Once I fell in love with you again I wanted to be with you as much as we could, and talk to you often. I felt even then that you did not feel the same.
> *
> 
> I don't understand the change in my heart but I have to trust what God puts in there for me to obey. I really hope we can be friends but I will respect what you need to do for you. *
> 
> I understand this “change in your heart” to mean you do not feel physically attracted to me. I started to see it before you broke up with me. You did not seem to feel the desire to reach out and hold my hand, or when we kissed it felt like you didn’t really desire it. I see how (daughter in law) is always hugging (my son), and touching him. We had that in the very beginning of our relationship the first time. I remember brushing my teeth and you coming up behind me and touching my shoulders and caressing me. That’s how I felt about you recently. I just wanted to touch you all the time. I could see it was more of an effort for you to do that to me than a natural inclination to do so.
> *
> 
> I have never stopped praying for you and your family and I won't stop praying for you all. I love you (my name) and I pray that God puts His desires in your heart for you to follow. Only then will we experience completeness deep in our souls.*
> 
> I know you are capable of being the “touchy feely” type when you really fall in love with someone, but apparently I am not that guy. I wanted to believe it was possible, but after our talk last night it hit me. I was seeing something that is not there. Something in me just clicked, and I felt it break. On the drive home I felt that feeling were I begin cutting something out of me that doesn’t belong there. I’ve gotten pretty good at it over the years. (my friend) taught me well in how to see the truth and stop being a romantic fool. I had a heart like (our childs name) for so many years, and was a fool. I can be friends with you and we can still do things every once in a while. What makes it hard is that we usually are doing it with our family which sets this framework around it like we are a “family” and these are our kids. It’s kind of a mind f(k for me. For lack of a better term. I’m going to need some time to fully cut this out of my heart and get back to where I was before I entertained the idea we could be something. Back to where I was before I dated you. I have been praying for God to show me what he wanted for me. I thought for sure this relationship was his will. It felt so right because of all we had in common. I thought he was telling me to repair what I broke. Me being the broken person I am didn’t do too well at it, but I thought I was supposed to keep trying. Now I realize it was one of the moments where I was deceiving myself.
> 
> There is going to be a time where we have to see each other with another person. It will probably be easier for you since you’ve dealt with it a few times, but we both will get over it and still be friends. We will always be friends. No worries. I’m guessing it will take a few dates with someone else for me to really break the attachment I’ve had to you. I was just being a romantic fool and didn’t realize it. This notion that there is one person for you in the world was some childish thing I had stuck in my brain.
> 
> So I get it. You don’t have those feelings for me, and had trouble telling me. You didn’t want to affect our friendship. We are good. We are friends. I’ll see you from time to time.
> Take care (wifes name), and I’ll be praying for you and the family too.
> 
> -------end email--------------
> 
> her response was:
> 
> -------email ----------
> Hi (my name),
> 
> I don’t quite have the time to comment on everything but I definitely know you came to some conclusions on your own accusing me of feelings and thoughts that I don’t have.
> 
> I find you very handsome and attractive. I think we have a lot in common and can definitely have a lasting relationship except for one thing. I feel like I have to defend myself. I can’t have my most intimate relationship second guessing my intentions and attacking me. It’s exhausting for me.
> 
> I’m so sorry Chris. I know that’s not what God wants for either of us. I just wanted to be honest with you. I hope you’re not mad at me. If you want, I’ll re-read this later when I have more time to comment on each thing. I love you!!
> (wifes name)
> 
> ----- end email--------------------
> 
> First thing I noticed was "i dont have time..." we all have time in our lives and we chose where to spend it based on our priorities. I am not a priority to her.
> I basically was giving her what she wanted. I was saying goodbye, but telling her why. Her response is cryptic. Does the email sound like an attack? Is she saying she wants me to wait for her? so I replied with this:
> 
> I wanted to say "if your to busy to read this then I have my answer, but instead;
> 
> -----email-------------
> If this is too long and you don't have time to read it. That's fine. Just let me know. What part of what i wrote sounded like I was attacking you? That wasn't my intention at all. I thought I was telling you how I understood the meaning behind what we talked about and how I read your body language over the relationship. I am sharing my most intimate feelings and thoughts so you may understand what I thought it meant. I think when someone is attracted and loves another person its usually obvious by the amount they touch them. That's all I was saying. I felt your lack of touch later in the relationship was a sign you have withdrawn or lost your feelings for me. Also, if your perfectly fine with me dating someone else then your not where I was at. That's basically what I was saying. If what I wrote sounded like I was attacking you then I'm sorry. I thought it would help to be completely honest about how I felt, but I'm at a loss now. I don't understand how trying to clarify what I thought is attacking. If your in a place where you don't feel like you can be completely clear about things then that's fine, but when I try to understand better and tell you how I feel its not meant to attack you.
> I'll just ask direct questions instead.
> Do you love me as more than a friend?
> Do you have a hard time not holding my hand or cuddling with me when I'm with you?
> Do you have hope I will wait for you instead of dating other women?
> These are the basic things I need to know to make a decision. I went the long way about it telling you my thoughts.
> Don't worry about reading through it again and commenting on it. That's fine.
> I do love you very much which is why this is difficult for me. I don't want to move on, but I've finally learned to stop fighting for someone who is ok with losing me. If your not ok with losing me I need to know. That's basically it.
> I hope this doesn't sound attacking. I honestly don't see that it is. I'm just trying to make a decision and need the facts to do it.
> ---email---------
> 
> I'm honestly confused. Can someone help me understand the ladies mind. Is this her way of breaking up, but not wanting to be the "bad guy". Is she just hoping i'll move along without her explicitly saying it?


Run! Run as fast as you are able. This woman is certifiably nuts!


----------



## manowar

chumpaward said:


> Then why is she always asking me to over? I have left it. I ignore her. She has initiated every conversation or invite. that it whats so confusing.



I have to give you credit for your name. 

You are what's known as an _emotional tampon_. See rich cooper videos and book for more info. You need it, brother. Read the rational male to break your delusions. Rollo Tomassi book and videos. It won't be so confusing after you read these books and watch the videos. You'll finally start to get it.

You were brought in 16 years ago to fill the Provider role for her and her children. You served your purpose.


----------



## DudeInProgress

frusdil said:


> The message is pretty clear actually.
> 
> 1 - "God" isn't telling her anything, because there's no such thing
> 
> 2 - She couldn't be clearer - she doesn't want you, but doesn't want you moving on either so she throws you some crumbs occasionally
> 
> 3 - Stop this nonsense, the woman had been divorced not once, not twice but THREE times before you married her. Two divorces would give most people pause but three?? Are you insane? Now it's four!


1. Unnecessary and not helpful. Don’t be a douche, be respectful to the majority of people that aren’t atheists.
2. Agree
3. Also correct


----------



## Luckylucky

I think the poster might have meant God isn’t telling her anything, no such thing because God doesn’t exactly speak to us (hearing God’s voice) rather than no such thing as God?


----------



## sokillme

chumpaward said:


> I'm 54 and this was my first marriage. My wife is 62 and has been married and divorced several times . My wife and I divorced in 2016. In October of 2020 my son who she lives with told me she kept mentioning she wished I would ask her out again. I did, and fell madly in love with her again after 6 months of dating. Then suddenly I felt her getting distant, and after a week she told me she felt God telling her she wasn't meant to date right now. We are christian and we didn't do anything physical that entire time other than kiss and cuddle. She kept inviting me to do things as friends, but no holding hands, kissing, just hang out. It was killing me to be with her and not hold her hand, kiss her. I told her how I felt and she sent me this email. I replied with comments to each paragraph and her response has me baffled. I'm sharing this conversation in hopes the ladies here can help me as I am a clueless man. See below:
> 
> --------------email------------------------
> I thought it would help clear up my confusion if I tried to respond in this way.
> *
> I just want Gods will whatever that looks like for me and you. I love you very much and it would be very painful to lose the friendship that I have for you or to see you be with someone else.*
> 
> I understand this to mean: I love you as a friend, but it would still hurt to see you with someone else.
> I understand. As I feel the same about you accept I love you as more than a friend. When we divorced I went through a time that changed how I felt for you. I had no attraction to you at all, and never thought I could again. Then when I finally decided to ask you out and open myself to the idea something changed. I saw you again as the woman I fell in love with years ago.
> *
> I just know in my heart that God does not want me with anyone right now and I have to follow that. It has been very hard for me to accept and I was mad at you for not wanting us to be together since we broke up.*
> 
> The letter you sent to break up said “maybe we can do things together from time to time”. I felt this meant: I care about you as a friend, but don’t feel the same desire to be with you often. After I already felt you were not where I was at in the relationship this confirmed it for me. I had the feeling you were trying to show me you cared, but didn’t really feel the same. Once I fell in love with you again I wanted to be with you as much as we could, and talk to you often. I felt even then that you did not feel the same.
> *
> 
> I don't understand the change in my heart but I have to trust what God puts in there for me to obey. I really hope we can be friends but I will respect what you need to do for you. *
> 
> I understand this “change in your heart” to mean you do not feel physically attracted to me. I started to see it before you broke up with me. You did not seem to feel the desire to reach out and hold my hand, or when we kissed it felt like you didn’t really desire it. I see how (daughter in law) is always hugging (my son), and touching him. We had that in the very beginning of our relationship the first time. I remember brushing my teeth and you coming up behind me and touching my shoulders and caressing me. That’s how I felt about you recently. I just wanted to touch you all the time. I could see it was more of an effort for you to do that to me than a natural inclination to do so.
> *
> 
> I have never stopped praying for you and your family and I won't stop praying for you all. I love you (my name) and I pray that God puts His desires in your heart for you to follow. Only then will we experience completeness deep in our souls.*
> 
> I know you are capable of being the “touchy feely” type when you really fall in love with someone, but apparently I am not that guy. I wanted to believe it was possible, but after our talk last night it hit me. I was seeing something that is not there. Something in me just clicked, and I felt it break. On the drive home I felt that feeling were I begin cutting something out of me that doesn’t belong there. I’ve gotten pretty good at it over the years. (my friend) taught me well in how to see the truth and stop being a romantic fool. I had a heart like (our childs name) for so many years, and was a fool. I can be friends with you and we can still do things every once in a while. What makes it hard is that we usually are doing it with our family which sets this framework around it like we are a “family” and these are our kids. It’s kind of a mind f(k for me. For lack of a better term. I’m going to need some time to fully cut this out of my heart and get back to where I was before I entertained the idea we could be something. Back to where I was before I dated you. I have been praying for God to show me what he wanted for me. I thought for sure this relationship was his will. It felt so right because of all we had in common. I thought he was telling me to repair what I broke. Me being the broken person I am didn’t do too well at it, but I thought I was supposed to keep trying. Now I realize it was one of the moments where I was deceiving myself.
> 
> There is going to be a time where we have to see each other with another person. It will probably be easier for you since you’ve dealt with it a few times, but we both will get over it and still be friends. We will always be friends. No worries. I’m guessing it will take a few dates with someone else for me to really break the attachment I’ve had to you. I was just being a romantic fool and didn’t realize it. This notion that there is one person for you in the world was some childish thing I had stuck in my brain.
> 
> So I get it. You don’t have those feelings for me, and had trouble telling me. You didn’t want to affect our friendship. We are good. We are friends. I’ll see you from time to time.
> Take care (wifes name), and I’ll be praying for you and the family too.
> 
> -------end email--------------
> 
> her response was:
> 
> -------email ----------
> Hi (my name),
> 
> I don’t quite have the time to comment on everything but I definitely know you came to some conclusions on your own accusing me of feelings and thoughts that I don’t have.
> 
> I find you very handsome and attractive. I think we have a lot in common and can definitely have a lasting relationship except for one thing. I feel like I have to defend myself. I can’t have my most intimate relationship second guessing my intentions and attacking me. It’s exhausting for me.
> 
> I’m so sorry Chris. I know that’s not what God wants for either of us. I just wanted to be honest with you. I hope you’re not mad at me. If you want, I’ll re-read this later when I have more time to comment on each thing. I love you!!
> (wifes name)
> 
> ----- end email--------------------
> 
> First thing I noticed was "i dont have time..." we all have time in our lives and we chose where to spend it based on our priorities. I am not a priority to her.
> I basically was giving her what she wanted. I was saying goodbye, but telling her why. Her response is cryptic. Does the email sound like an attack? Is she saying she wants me to wait for her? so I replied with this:
> 
> I wanted to say "if your to busy to read this then I have my answer, but instead;
> 
> -----email-------------
> If this is too long and you don't have time to read it. That's fine. Just let me know. What part of what i wrote sounded like I was attacking you? That wasn't my intention at all. I thought I was telling you how I understood the meaning behind what we talked about and how I read your body language over the relationship. I am sharing my most intimate feelings and thoughts so you may understand what I thought it meant. I think when someone is attracted and loves another person its usually obvious by the amount they touch them. That's all I was saying. I felt your lack of touch later in the relationship was a sign you have withdrawn or lost your feelings for me. Also, if your perfectly fine with me dating someone else then your not where I was at. That's basically what I was saying. If what I wrote sounded like I was attacking you then I'm sorry. I thought it would help to be completely honest about how I felt, but I'm at a loss now. I don't understand how trying to clarify what I thought is attacking. If your in a place where you don't feel like you can be completely clear about things then that's fine, but when I try to understand better and tell you how I feel its not meant to attack you.
> I'll just ask direct questions instead.
> Do you love me as more than a friend?
> Do you have a hard time not holding my hand or cuddling with me when I'm with you?
> Do you have hope I will wait for you instead of dating other women?
> These are the basic things I need to know to make a decision. I went the long way about it telling you my thoughts.
> Don't worry about reading through it again and commenting on it. That's fine.
> I do love you very much which is why this is difficult for me. I don't want to move on, but I've finally learned to stop fighting for someone who is ok with losing me. If your not ok with losing me I need to know. That's basically it.
> I hope this doesn't sound attacking. I honestly don't see that it is. I'm just trying to make a decision and need the facts to do it.
> ---email---------
> 
> I'm honestly confused. Can someone help me understand the ladies mind. Is this her way of breaking up, but not wanting to be the "bad guy". Is she just hoping i'll move along without her explicitly saying it?


God wants you to read the second post and really think long and hard.


----------



## Mr.Married

chumpaward said:


> Thank you all for such great advice and information. I was blown away how active, and helpful this was. I am going to let her know we can remain friends, but will not go visit when she ask. I'm going to tell her I think its best if we just move on. I will see her at family events, and we can catch up then. It feels peaceful making this decision to stop the head games. Thank you again.


There ya go !!! Stand up for yourself... good job!

There might be only a one letter difference between Grand Champion and Grand Chumpion but you want to make sure your an “A” guy and not the “U” guy !!!!!!

Stick to your plan and don’t fall for the trap when she suddenly shows a bunch of interest.... don’t do it !!!!! Be the “A” guy !!


----------



## Ursula

Luckylucky said:


> I think the poster might have meant God isn’t telling her anything, no such thing because God doesn’t exactly speak to us (hearing God’s voice) rather than no such thing as God?


This is pretty much how I took it as well. A person can pray to God, but God doesn't fly down from the heavens to have a conversation with them; that person is left to continue to pray and then draw their own conclusions. I do understand though how a person could feel that that conclusion came down fully from God.


----------



## chumpaward

Mr.Married said:


> There ya go !!! Stand up for yourself... good job!
> 
> There might be only a one letter difference between Grand Champion and Grand Chumpion but you want to make sure your an “A” guy and not the “U” guy !!!!!!
> 
> Stick to your plan and don’t fall for the trap when she suddenly shows a bunch of interest.... don’t do it !!!!! Be the “A” guy !!


Nah, there's no going back. I'm a chump but not a complete invalid. Her response to my email was that it would hurt to see me with another but if it will make me happy I should move on. I thanked her for finally being clear, and that was it.
Bought the rational male, on second chapter. Wow, I have been so blind. What blows my mind is that women are attracted alpha traits (obviously for let's they want some beta "nesting" ability) in a man mostly, but after they have you they begin this process of trying to mold you into a beta. Then when they have completed the work and your this sniveling, obsequious, man servant they despise you for being that way. They have no desire for you because you've become pathetic to them. What a complete mind $#@!. Women say they wish they could find a "nice guy" and wonder why there are non left. Well that would be because masculinity is called toxic. The culture cultivates beta males. I can't subscribe to the game method as a means to get sex, but the concepts are essential to a healthy relationship. I will spin plates as he says, but use this method to find the rare gem of a woman who still desires a masculine man. Once the frame is established I will keep it there or find the door if thats not possible. No more beta, no more AFC. A new red pill has awoken. Thank you my friend. Emotional tampon has left the building.


----------



## manowar

chumpaward said:


> Bought the rational male, on second chapter. Wow, I have been so blind.
> Emotional tampon has left the building.



Terrific. You are on your way. Nice to see that you bought the book and the light went on.


----------



## manowar

It's going to take a while to make the transformation. You just learned that the world isn't flat. A couple of things. Don't simp for your wife again. Stop all that. Go No Contact. Complete for several months. Do not cut the grass, provide money, fix the flat tire, repair leaky faucets. That's all beta provider behavior. Even the kids. They are not yours. You did your duty. You get the picture. Concentrate on yourself.

Rule 1 - Never Put a woman first again. You come first.

A couple of more books to complete the picture. All the vital information your clergyman neglected to tell you about woman, dating, and marriage.

1)  The Predatory Female by Rev Shannon. You'll see some real truth bombs here that probably apply to your situation. Highly Recommended. make sure you read this one.

2) The Manipulated Man - Ester villar. Written by a woman. Great insight into Male behavior. You can download this one online. She claims that men seek enslavement. Her argument is pretty good.

3) Female Psychology for the Practical Man -- joe west. Download online. One of the best and informative books on this subject I've come across.

At 54 you can still turn your life around. And this time you'll have more control and understanding of what's really going on.


----------



## chumpaward

Great info, thank you! On chapter 5 of the rational man, and will probably listen to the first chapter "basics" several times to get the foundation better. Even now I look at my last post and see the flaws in thinking. Yes, this will take time. I'll go through all the info you provided. Thanks Morpheus. Haha I feel like Neo, and yes, I have already deflected the first simp attempt. The imagery from Rollo if being a warm fuzzy stuffed animal to hug, and the definition of "the emotional tampon " hit so hard it was like a fog lifted. I had to laugh at what you said earlier. I was the classic AFC. Looking to up my skill set. Focus on work. Already in great shape, but started surfing again today. I'm feeling that amazing feeling of freedom and potential a had before I met her. Thanks for unplugging me. Now to get to work.


----------



## chumpaward

Great info, thank you! On chapter 5 of the rational man, and will probably listen to the first chapter "basics" several times to get the foundation better. Even now I look at my last post and see the flaws in thinking. Yes, this will take time. I'll go through all the info you provided. Thanks Morpheus. Haha I feel like Neo, and yes, I have already deflected the first simp attempt. The imagery from Rollo if being a warm fuzzy stuffed animal to hug, and the definition of "the emotional tampon " hit so hard it was like s falling from my eyes.


Mr.Married said:


> There ya go !!! Stand up for yourself... good job!
> 
> There might be only a one letter difference between Grand Champion and Grand Chumpion but you want to make sure your an “A” guy and not the “U” guy !!!!!!
> 
> Stick to your plan and don’t fall for the trap when she suddenly shows a bunch of interest.... don’t do it !!!!! Be the “A” guy !!


Btw, thank you for your help too. Your approach was more like the hammer, and manowar's was like the scalpel. Both helped.


----------



## Mr.Married

It’s good that your getting things cleared up. It is also important to remember that this is about self awareness and relationship understanding....... not about becoming a woman hater.


----------



## Blondilocks

manowar said:


> 3) Female Psychology for the Practical Man --* joe west. *Download online. One of the best and informative books on this subject I've come across.


The author is Joseph South. He claims he has _vast_ experience with women which tells me he doesn't know anymore about women than the average joe. But, he's figured out how to make some dough.


----------



## chumpaward

Mr.Married said:


> It’s good that your getting things cleared up. It is also important to remember that this is about self awareness and relationship understanding....... not about becoming a woman hater.


I watched a dozen Rich Cooper videos before starting Rollo's book. Rich puts it a great perspective. Its not a conscious act for woman to do this. I don't and will not ever hate woman. I now know that it is in thier benefit to known these things. Only then can you be the man that shows them what "x" is that they need for a healthy relationship. The very act of asking them what "x" is then becoming what they think they want leads to beta and therefore leads to them despising the beta they've created. If I understand correctly. Lots to learn.


----------



## manowar

chumpaward said:


> I don't and will not ever hate woman.



That's not what this is about. Women are terrific. It would be like hating snow because snow is white. Or hating water because water is wet. I pass this on so that you can gain insight into female psychology. Now you are in a position of understanding better and can calibrate your behavior accordingly. From my experience, this stuff is very accurate. I started out as the typical conditioned idiot as a very young man in the 1980s.. In my case I learned, observed, questioned reality, and adjusted my behavior. Basically trial and error. Legions of men have been so thoroughly conditioned to 1) bend the knee and 2) to a partially true societal narrative (the beta provider side) that in this process they become weak, overly agreeable, pleasing, serviceable men leading to the final phase as a doormat.

Re the *flaws in your thinking.* That's really true. As you re-educate, you'll find that most of it was in your head and your flawed thinking led to flawed behavior. Read each of the books at least 2x. Watch the videos. You'll have the basics down in a few months. You'll never go back. You can't! It's nice to see this has had an impact.


----------



## manowar

Blondilocks said:


> The author is Joseph South. He claims he has _vast_ experience with women which tells me he doesn't know anymore about women than the average joe. But, he's figured out how to make some dough.


think its great your willing to take a look at the book. Would love to hear your thoughts.


----------



## chumpaward

manowar said:


> That's not what this is about. Women are terrific. It would be like hating snow because snow is white. Or hating water because water is wet. I pass this on so that you can gain insight into female psychology. Now you are in a position of understanding better and can calibrate your behavior accordingly. From my experience, this stuff is very accurate. I started out as the typical conditioned idiot as a very young man in the 1980s.. In my case I learned, observed, questioned reality, and adjusted my behavior. Basically trial and error. Legions of men have been so thoroughly conditioned to 1) bend the knee and 2) to a partially true societal narrative (the beta provider side) that in this process they become weak, overly agreeable, pleasing, serviceable men leading to the final phase as a doormat.
> 
> Re the *flaws in your thinking.* That's really true. As you re-educate, you'll find that most of it was in your head and your flawed thinking led to flawed behavior. Read each of the books at least 2x. Watch the videos. You'll have the basics down in a few months. You'll never go back. You can't! It's nice to see this has had an impact.


Yes, I can't unsee this. I see i was responsible for how our marriage was. Things would have been different had I known this. There is good chance it would not have lasted as long as it did, but it would have been healthier for us both.


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