# The vagina



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I will start by saying, I'm not some expert in the field of reproductive biology. Yes, I have published research in the field of cancer and developmental biology, but not in this area of concentration.

The female copulatory organ, the vagina, is probably not what some guys may assume it is - it is not some gapping hole always ready for business. If you ran a scope up there what you would see are pleated sheets of tissue making up the wall. Given the circumstance of the scope, these pleats would not be relaxed and likely cause her pain and discomfort (even with it lack of girth). 

During excitation, glandular activity increases and the pleated sheets of tissue are relaxed. Hence, this becomes a stretchable organ ready to accommodate the male copulatory organ. Yes, the length can vary a bit from female to female. And while there can be some pain associated with the rare hung guy that can stretch all the way to the cervix, most often painful sex is actually associated with certain conditions - like vaginismus. This is not necessarily because of his length or girth, but because of her inability to attain enough muscle relaxation. Usually these same females have difficulty using tampons as well. 

In most cases, the size of the penis fits pretty well into the stretchable organ that accommodates various sizes. In the rare case of the large male copulatory organ causing discomfort, positional changes do the trick, yes that is often all it takes. This is a stretchable and accommodating organ, not some stiff gapping hole. 

So, I find it interesting all the stuff about "his" size, when the stretchable vagina is able to accommodate the average male copulatory organ just fine. 

One caveat: too small can be a problem, but these are rare, normally almost two standard deviations beyond the mean. So guys rest assure, you are ok. 

I'm sure there is more to be said, but this is my $0.02 of info


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)




----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

LOL! Perfect for a Friday afternoon!


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Can you talk more about the opening and the first couple inches where most of the nerves are located? How it changes throughout life's experiences and how that might reflect the idea of girth and length being important or not at all? 

Yes, I know many threads here have said the clitoris is the important organ in sexual stimulation, next to the brain.


----------



## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

All I know is

Black ,White Asian (yellow) Indian ( Feathers not dots Red ) Brown Indians dots not feathers) ..{sorry for the political incorrectness} Cinnamon/Brown( Island Girls)

They are all pink inside

Whats not to love!!!!

55


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Can you talk more about the opening and the first couple inches where most of the nerves are located? How it changes throughout life's experiences and how that might reflect the idea of girth and length being important or not at all?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I know many threads here have said the clitoris is the important organ in sexual stimulation, next to the brain.




Nerves are not loosely dispersed in the vagina rather they are bundled. And, yes there are bundles at entry way as there are at the "G" spot which really should be called the "P" spot (since some of the surrounding epithelial tissue share an embryological origin with the prostate gland). No two women have the bundles in the same exact place and nor is wiring to the brain (largest sex organ) fall onto the same column of cortex. Some of this is based on development cues (nature vs nurture). 

To your question, no doubt girth of his copulatory organ will lend a bit more stimuli, regardless of where these bundles are located. However, like length most males fall within the mean that accommodates her vagina just fine. So, if you had more girth is this better? Sure, but like anything else, if you are two or possibly three standard deviations above the mean rather than one, it may end up being more discomfort (not so much pain) for some women (not all). Discomfort does not alway mean bad sex either. I think most (the mean) men should not worry about what you don't have and worry more about what works for her. Pay attention to what pleases her rather than worry about whether you are being judged. And, we are sexual animals, so real honesty is her letting him know verbally or by hand direction what is working to get her motor going and what is not. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

just got it 55 said:


> All I know is
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Agree, that is the point to this thread.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> Nerves are not loosely dispersed in the vagina rather they are bundled. And, yes there are bundles at entry way as there are at the "G" spot which really should be called the "P" spot (since some of the surrounding epithelial tissue share an embryological origin with the prostate gland). No two women have the bundles in the same exact place and nor is wiring to the brain (largest sex organ) fall onto the same column of cortex. Some of this is based on development cues (nature vs nurture).
> 
> To your question, no doubt girth of his copulatory organ will lend a bit more stimuli, regardless of where these bundles are located. However, like length most males fall within the mean that accommodates her vagina just fine. So, if you had more girth is this better? Sure, but like anything else, if you are two or possibly three standard deviations above the mean rather than one, it may end up being more discomfort (not so much pain) for some women (not all). Discomfort does not alway mean bad sex either. I think most (the mean) men should not worry about what you don't have and worry more about what works for her. Pay attention to what pleases her rather than worry about whether you are being judged. And, we are sexual animals, so real honesty is her letting him know verbally or by hand direction what is working to get her motor going and what is not.
> 
> ...


So, girth is important to the particular woman you are sleeping with? Whatever she was born with, as whatever men are born with are two things nothing can be done about for the most part? 

Do children and the adjustments necessary for the accommodation of passing an infant play a small part in the need for more girth? 

If she isn't pleased with your particular girth, how would you know?

Some women aren't comfortable discussing these things, especially during the moment.

Is it true, wetness doesn't really seem to be a good indicator of the "O" in a woman?


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

just got it 55 said:


> All I know is
> 
> Black ,White, Asian, Native American, East Indian, Caribbean.
> 
> ...


FIFY ?????


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> So, girth is important to the particular woman you are sleeping with? Whatever she was born with, as whatever men are born with are two things nothing can be done about for the most part?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I would say average girth for the average woman is what is important. And, given that it is a stretchable and yet accommodating organ, the average girth suits the average woman just fine. 

I don't think this is something the average guy should fret about, really, I just don't. Sex should never be about judgements, it should be about communicating what works for both. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> I would say average girth for the average woman is what is important. And, given that it is a stretchable and yet accommodating organ, the average girth suits the average woman just fine.
> 
> I don't think this is something the average guy should fret about, really, I just don't. Sex should never be about judgements, it should be about communicating what works for both.
> 
> ...


Are you saying that if the couple is not communicating during sex, even a new couple, they have some compatibility issues?


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> FIFY ?????




Most of us would call ourselves indigenous or first peoples, but I'm not easily offended and that is not the point. Whether kanaka maoli (native Hawaiian) or of European descent the biology of both copulatory organs are the same. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Are you saying that if the couple is not communicating during sex, even a new couple, they have some compatibility issues?




Possibly, but that is well beyond my area of expertise. My wife and talk often (in bed) as to what works and does not. And, even after 21 years we are comfortable to explore new adventures (that does not involve a 3rd party). 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Let's not forget regardless of her vagina, her most important sex organ is her brain (cerebral cortex). 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Thank-you for the informative post ikaika.

While we're on the subject of girl bits, it sure would be nice to get rid of the disgusting term "meat flaps" as a description of inner labia.

They are "petals" not "meat flaps".:flowerkitty: [Appropriate smiley icon; combining the kitty and the petals.]

Although, I suppose, technically, they are part of the vulva, not vagina.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Thank-you for the informative post ikaika.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




They are unique and beautiful no doubt. No woman should be ashamed or self conscious of hers. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thanks Ikaika for answering some tough questions.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Thanks Ikaika for answering some tough questions.




`A `ole pilikia - No problem (Can be a response to mahalo)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Since you are knowledgeable about biology, Ikaika, perhaps you can comment on the deleterious effects of commercial douching solutions; ie. "Wildflower" or "Strawberry" scented preparations and how they are not good for the bacteria in the vagina.

I used a "Wildflowers" scented douche in my early 20's, and boy was I sorry. Only time I ever had a serious vaginal infection.

Although plain vinegar and water, or even edible plain yogurt is supposed to be beneficial in some cases???


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Since you are knowledgeable about biology, Ikaika, perhaps you can comment on the deleterious effects of commercial douching solutions; ie. "Wildflower" or "Strawberry" scented preparations and how they are not good for the bacteria in the vagina.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You have to understand any opening to the environment - vagina, intestinal tract, etc, are all vulnerable to pathogens. The adaptive way to keep pathogens out is competition. So anything that alters the natural chemistry can alter the good (competitive) bacteria. I suspect some of the commercial products rather than vinegar and water may in fact decrease the good bacteria load and leave you vulnerable. Keep in mind there are subtle chemical difference between each woman. So what may not work for you may work for someone else. So find what works and likely that is best to keep the good bacteria around for you. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Ikaika said:


> One caveat: too small can be a problem, but these are rare, normally almost two standard deviations beyond the mean. So guys rest assure, you are ok.


Thank you for your presentation doctor. Now if you can address the psychology of why most men would prefer to be two standard deviations on the right side of the bell curve as opposed to the left side of the bell curve. 
Moreover, I've heard some women claim they want a man three standard deviations on the right side of the curve. However, I think would be pretty much of a stretch.
BTW, You're not into that happy tobaccy again are you?


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Since you're knowledgable about the vagina - after childbirth - I have lost some sensation near the opening. This makes me feel not as "tight" in that spot. Hubby says it feels exactly the same - no issues whatsoever. With fingers it does not FEEL larger. No issues with tampons or the like - I can still use the smallest ones.

I have read that it could possibly be nerve damage due to two episiotomies (cut down towards the anus) and a 3rd degree tear (up toward the clitoris). 

Everywhere else feels normal, but the opening has almost no sensation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

VladDracul said:


> Thank you for your presentation doctor. Now if you can address the psychology of why most men would prefer to be two standard deviations on the right side of the bell curve as opposed to the left side of the bell curve.
> Moreover, I've heard some women claim they want a man three standard deviations on the right side of the curve. However, I think would be pretty much of a stretch.
> BTW, You're not into that happy tobaccy again are you?




This way beyond my area of expertise, but I will assume it is not so much biology. Why would one need to own a Ferrari where I live when 90% of the time you will be in stop and go traffic. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> Since you're knowledgable about the vagina - after childbirth - I have lost some sensation near the opening. This makes me feel not as "tight" in that spot. Hubby says it feels exactly the same - no issues whatsoever. With fingers it does not FEEL larger. No issues with tampons or the like - I can still use the smallest ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If you had episiotomies during labor and delivery, that would be the greater cause to any loss on sensation. The scar tissue from these are likely the cause. Most ob/gyn residency programs don't teach this technique and research has actually found better healing with less scar tissue build up from natural tearing. Sorry to sound graphic, but it is the nature of this discussion. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Ikaika said:


> If you ran a scope up there what you would see are pleated sheets of tissue making up the wall. Given the circumstance of the scope, these pleats would not be relaxed and likely cause her pain and discomfort (even with it lack of girth).


A scope isn't particularly stimulating so yes, similar to a penis, things will be smaller when no stimulation is present.

When stimulation occurs, erective tissues do come into play, creating an empty space. Which if you were using talented fingers on a entertained subject instead of making her the object of scientific scrutiny, you might discover....

and also many woman can queef whenever they want so there is an ability to use lower abdomen muscles to create suction into the tissues (not necessarily "gaping hole")


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Can you talk more about the opening and the first couple inches where most of the nerves are located? How it changes throughout life's experiences and how that might reflect the idea of girth and length being important or not at all?
> 
> Yes, I know many threads here have said the clitoris is the important organ in sexual stimulation, next to the brain.


If you're regarding the clitoris, then get some medical pictures and look at where most of it lies, including the nerve endings and erective tissues.
too many guys think it's a nub or golden rivet located in a small spot, but it has large amount of erective tissue all of which has stimulation nerves around it. When expansion occurs, like the penis, all the tissue becomes aroused and is usually favourable to compression, just as a penis shaft likes compression. The exact area shifts about (and some will be uncomfortable) but it does make for more sensitive areas.

Also why we're being all semi-clinical, I have found that the ribbed area just inside and up (behind the vulva/urethra) is likewise favourable to certain situations of stimulation, especially with compression, and oral sucking on the inner lips.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

spotthedeaddog said:


> A scope isn't particularly stimulating so yes, similar to a penis, things will be smaller when no stimulation is present.
> 
> 
> 
> When stimulation occurs, erective tissues do come into play, creating an empty space. Which if you were using talented fingers on a entertained subject instead of making her the object of scientific scrutiny, you might discover....




This is a reference to size (scope) which seems to be an obsession for some males. 

It's not the erectile tissue that creates pleasurable accommodation. The vaginal wall has a lot of interlaced elastic and muscle tissue. Relaxation of the muscle intertwined with the elastic tissue opens up the vagina. This is as you allude to a stimulatory event. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

spotthedeaddog said:


> If you're regarding the clitoris, then get some medical pictures and look at where most of it lies, including the nerve endings and erective tissues.
> too many guys think it's a nub or golden rivet located in a small spot, but it has large amount of erective tissue all of which has stimulation nerves around it. When expansion occurs, like the penis, all the tissue becomes aroused and is usually favourable to compression, just as a penis shaft likes compression. The exact area shifts about (and some will be uncomfortable) but it does make for more sensitive areas.
> 
> Also why we're being all semi-clinical, I have found that the ribbed area just inside and up (behind the vulva/urethra) is likewise favourable to certain situations of stimulation, especially with compression, and oral sucking on the inner lips.


My question was more about how penis size feels to a woman and vice versa. When most of the nerves are located at and into the opening for a couple inches, when simply speaking of the vagina and not including the clitoris. I've read posts here where many women like to have somewhat of a full feeling for lack of better terminology. 

I know the clitoris is the main point of stimulus, along with the brain.

The thing is, we were talking about penis size. If a man's penis feels small to a woman or a woman feels a bit bigger to a man, I was supposing and asking if it could be because of child birth or some other over stretching of the vagina.

Apparently it can, though not in all instances. Some loss of feeling in the vaginal opening can be due to the tearing or the cutting of the tissue between the vagina and anus to accommodate the birth of a child. This all seems to be normal for the most part.

I'm sure there can be a loss of sensation of the penis for many reasons, too.


----------



## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Even just a finger or two can feel good to most women. Most of us are larger that two fingers. I will say this, my wife accommodates me just fine, but she does not like to feel stretched. It's a sensation she finds very uncomfortable.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

The smell of the vagina can be both a source of embarrassment and unfortunately a source of jokes. However, it's going to smell down their no matter what. What is important is understanding the smells as a source of diagnosis. Lactobacilli is the good bacteria that normally colonizes the vagina. Yes the same bacteria in yogurt. Unfortunately as good as they are at out competing the bad bacteria (more anaerobic bacteria - the fishy foul smells), they, lactobacilli, sometimes may be exposed to insults that decrease the colonies. This can result in bad bacteria taking over. I was asked earlier about douching (I wanted to be delicate with my answer), however I would like to revise my answer and advice against this practice. There is a lot of research to suggest this may even be a major source of insult to the lactobacilli colonies leaving the vagina susceptible to a number of problems:

just don't take my word for it; here’s what some of the research shows:

University of Washington researchers correlated douching and chlamydia risk in 1,692 women. Compared with those who never douched, those who did even once in the previous year had double the risk. Among those who douched weekly risk almost quadrupled.

Researchers at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City discovered that monthly douching doubled the risk of pelvic inflammatory disease (PID)

And a study at the University of Washington School of Medicine in Seattle showed that weekly douching almost quadrupled PID

University of Pittsburgh researchers surveyed 1,200 women. As douching increased, so did the risk of bacterial vaginosis. Compared with those who did not douche at all, women who douched once a month, were 40 percent more likely to develop BV. In those who douched weekly, risk doubled.

Italian researchers surveyed 931 women about their douching and history of yeast infections. Frequent douching was associated with significantly increased risk.

I know this can be a personal as females are often self conscious about how they smell down there. I just think it is important to at least be aware of the risk and frankly it is something I know is easy to overcome when giving my wife oral. It's just one of those things worth discussing between you and your SO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm very disappointed by the lack of pictures about the topic.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> This way beyond my area of expertise, but I will assume it is not so much biology. Why would one need to own a Ferrari where I live when 90% of the time you will be in stop and go traffic.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is a self defeating argument.

Every man wants a Ferrari over a Toyota Aygo....

Besides that, in another thread about size there was a link to some scientific research that produced the idea that women liking big penises is a matter of evolution, because the penis is (even in average) bigger than needed for reproduction. Meaning that because women like esthetically bigger penises they choose reproduction with them above other sizes.

I expect the size of the the penis to be of importance according to the rules of evolutionary biology, so the last opinion should be wrong. The bigger size is not technically needed for reproduction but a bigger size creates better possibilities for producing more and better offspring :smile2:


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> This is a self defeating argument.
> 
> Every man wants a Ferrari over a Toyota Aygo....
> 
> ...




It is not that "he" does not want the Ferrari or the larger penis. It is more what each is designed for but then accommodates due to the adapted processes. So, a Ferrari may be designed to go fast but has to be adapted to the slow traffic jam. A guys penis can be larger than the mean but it is accommodated just the same as a guy of average size. That is the vagina for you. 

Bigger penis or stronger offspring? Because these two factors can be mutual exclusive. If in fact your theory were correct on your assumption of evolutionary biology, we would have self selected and the size of the average penis would be getting larger (generationally). There is no evidence that this trend is happening. 

There is is even stronger evidence that females select due to other factors - height and health (immune response traits) more so than something more hidden among our species, penis size. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

The theory IS evolutionary biology, and per definition it expects underlying mechanisms in all human behavior.

Rationality at our conscious levels has nothing to do with it.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> The theory IS evolutionary biology, and per definition it expects underlying mechanisms in all human behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> Rationality at our conscious levels has nothing to do with it.




So again if it's evolutionary biology for women to select for penis size for a suitable mate, where are the trends (the research data)?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> So again if it's evolutionary biology for women to select for penis size for a suitable mate, where are the trends (the research data)?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The beauty of the evolution theory is that it is self-evident. You just need to find a possible route, and however unlikely, if you add enough millions of years there you have your evolutionary path.

So if in our milleniums you see no visible change, than the explanation is that it is because you need tenthousands of years. 

Probably in the year 20.000 there would be a visible change. 

But beforehand I expect that just like boob jobs there will be penis jobs, and that would interfere with the natural selection process.

:grin2:


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

There is a more meaningful problem with the idea that penis and vagina are good fits in most cases:

They are not.

Hence the wish of most men to have a larger penis and of most women to feel more of the penis.

I would like to see an explanation of the how and why of these facts, and not the social correct answers, just the science.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> The beauty of the evolution theory is that it is self-evident. You just need to find a possible route, and however unlikely, if you add enough millions of years there you have your evolutionary path.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Word salad, what does this mean? Btw, if penis jobs are interfering with natural selection wouldn't that imply larger penis size is not a reproductive selector for females? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> There is a more meaningful problem with the idea that penis and vagina are good fits in most cases:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I presented the science of the expandable and accommodating organ called the vagina. Is there a social desire for a larger penis? Sure, but does this mean the average size is somehow less stimulating to the female during copulation? I don't think there is evidence to support this based on the biological accommodation of the vagina.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

larry.gray said:


> I'm very disappointed by the lack of pictures about the topic.


I'll get a friend from gyno to give me some of there pictures, if you _really_ want them....


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> I presented the science of the expandable and accommodating organ called the vagina. Is there a social desire for a larger penis? Sure, but does this mean the average size is somehow less stimulating to the female during copulation? I don't think there is evidence to support this based on the biological accommodation of the vagina.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


As far as I know the vagina is getting too loose after giving birth to children to be narrow enough to give enough pleasure to both men and women. In my opinion the Elephant in the room as far as the main reason of disappearing sexual enjoyment in marriages.

There can be done something about this, but since the subject is very much taboo, people don't even know they can do something about it. Science conforms to this taboo also, a shame. On these forums you read a lot about sexless marriages, and people not having enough sex, or not of a good enough quality.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> As far as I know the vagina is getting too loose after giving birth to children to be narrow enough to give enough pleasure to both men and women. In my opinion the Elephant in the room as far as the main reason of disappearing sexual enjoyment in marriages.
> 
> There can be done something about this, but since the subject is very much taboo, people don't even know they can do something about it. Science conforms to this taboo also, a shame. On these forums you read a lot about sexless marriages, and people not having enough sex, or not of a good enough quality.




Where do you get your misinformation? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> Where do you get your misinformation?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Oh no....not down to that level...:surprise:


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Disregarding the Trumpism above, which does not deserve an answer,

I provide a link in case some one needs further information:

How can I tighten my loose vagina?!? | Go Ask Alice!


*"Who is Alice!?*
Alice! is not one person, but a team. The _Go Ask Alice!_ site is supported by a team of Columbia University health promotion specialists, health care providers, and other health professionals, along with a staff of information and research specialists and writers. Our team members have advanced degrees in public health, health education, medicine, counseling, and a number of other relevant fields. "


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

spotthedeaddog said:


> I'll get a friend from gyno to give me some of there pictures, if you _really_ want them....


That seems rather unethical....

Check out the Wikipedia article on the topic. Lots of pictures there, then if that's insufficient tumblr has many more.


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

See_Listen_Love said:


> As far as I know the vagina is getting too loose after giving birth to children to be narrow enough to give enough pleasure to both men and women. In my opinion the Elephant in the room as far as the main reason of disappearing sexual enjoyment in marriages.
> 
> There can be done something about this, but since the subject is very much taboo, people don't even know they can do something about it. Science conforms to this taboo also, a shame. On these forums you read a lot about sexless marriages, and people not having enough sex, or not of a good enough quality.


This is not a problem for my wife. After the proscribed 6 week wait there was no issue with looseness. It took a while to stretch enough to fit.

The issue we had was nerve damage after a rather large baby #2.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

spotthedeaddog said:


> A scope isn't particularly stimulating so yes, similar to a penis, things will be smaller when no stimulation is present.
> 
> When stimulation occurs, erective tissues do come into play, creating an empty space. Which if you were using talented fingers on a entertained subject instead of making her the object of scientific scrutiny, you might discover....
> 
> and also many woman can queef whenever they want so there is an ability to use lower abdomen muscles to create suction into the tissues (not necessarily "gaping hole")


No. Stimulation does not cause empty space. If that were accurate a tampon would fall out if a woman masturbated during her period, and that doesn't happen. 

Many women can queef whenever they want? Again, this would be a no. The air has to be forced into the vagina and then trapped or blocked. During normal intercourse, depending on the positioning of her pelvis, the penis can force air into the vagina and then trap it in there. The air would then escape during next in thrust or once the penis has completely left the vagina.



So fellas remember, the tampon is really small compared to a penis and the tampon stays put without any effort at all.

The only thing a woman should ever douche with is water. Plain water, nothing else ever. The vagina is a self cleaning environment if the bacteria remain in balance. The fastest way to imbalance the vagina is to douche with anything other than water.








See_Listen_Love said:


> As far as I know the vagina is getting too loose after giving birth to children to be narrow enough to give enough pleasure to both men and women. In my opinion the Elephant in the room as far as the main reason of disappearing sexual enjoyment in marriages.
> 
> There can be done something about this, but since the subject is very much taboo, people don't even know they can do something about it. Science conforms to this taboo also, a shame. On these forums you read a lot about sexless marriages, and people not having enough sex, or not of a good enough quality.


Your logic is not based on fact, but supposition based on incorrect information. Childbirth does NOT cause the vagina to be permanently stretched out. But it does cause neuropathy. 

Deadened nerves do not bring pleasure. 

The muscle group is called the pelvic floor musculature and it is a fascinating and highly complex group of interdependent small muscles. Kagels exercises help maintain tone and awareness. The more pregnancies and births a woman has had, the more strain and damage to the entire pelvic floor muscle group. Epesiotomies cut nerves that do not regenerate, scar tissue also causes neuropathy.

If your wife has incontinence (a lack of voluntary control of urine flow) then you know that her pelvic floor musculature has suffered a great enough trauma that those muscles have stopped working as they should. 






See_Listen_Love said:


> Disregarding the Trumpism above, which does not deserve an answer,
> 
> I provide a link in case some one needs further information:
> 
> ...



If you read the article you would have noticed that it failed to state that childbirth caused a loosening of the vagina and instead focused on returning the pelvic floor dysfunction to a functioning state.

Only in the last 20 years have doctors even known that pelvic floor muscles can be retoned back to normal functioning. As your link states, women are too embarrassed to discuss this with their doctor. As @Ikaika has stated, only recently have obstetricians been trained to maintain the health of the pelvic floor musculature during pregnancy, let alone during child birth.

Pregnancy puts a giant strain on the pelvic floor muscle groups. In most cases, it is the pregnancy and not the actual birth that caused the fatigue of the pelvic floor. *Passing a baby through the vagina does not stretch it out to some permenantly loose state.* Within 6 weeks a healthy pelvic floor muscle group has gone back to its pre pregnancy state, if the birth itself didn't cause trauma to that region. Epesiotomy, prolonged labor, use of forceps or vacuum extractor all cause undue trauma to the pelvic floor muscle group.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> This is not a problem for my wife. After the proscribed 6 week wait there was no issue with looseness. It *took a while to stretch enough to fit.*
> 
> The issue we had was nerve damage after a rather large baby #2.


Pelvic floor musculature that temporarily lost the ability to voluntarily relax.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> No. Stimulation does not cause empty space. If that were accurate a tampon would fall out if a woman masturbated during her period, and that doesn't happen.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Exactly and worth repeating. Worth noting my youngest was nearly 9 lbs (4 kg) at birth and my penis did not just fall in and out last night, it fit perfectly 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

I may have missed it, but I didn't see depth of the opening mentioned. It makes sense that the tissues can enlarge and shrink...look at the variety of things expected to traverse this channel, from a male organ to a newborn baby.

I have had several SOs who complained that bumping the cervix caused intense pain. I'm under no delusions of being "hung", so I was puzzled. As these were at least MTR (Moderate Term Relationships) I had the ability to ask about prior experience. All three said that this had been an issue since they became sexually active. One of them did mention that she had a previous lover with whom the problem never occurred, but he was overall so small she couldn't really tell he was there.

Is this likely to be variations between individual women, or perhaps a sign that stimulation had not been adequate before penetration?


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

DustyDog said:


> I may have missed it, but I didn't see depth of the opening mentioned. It makes sense that the tissues can enlarge and shrink...look at the variety of things expected to traverse this channel, from a male organ to a newborn baby.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Mentioned in the original post


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

This whole thing about women selecting mates based on penis size makes little sense.

Why? Because for thousands of years, most women did not pick their mate. Their parents picked him for her. And the woman was/is usually a virgin. So she has no idea about whether or not penis size matters in sex.

This custom of women being married off to whomever her parents pick is still pretty much how its done in non-Western societies even today.

And even in Western scoieties, where pre-martial sex is very common, penis size is NOT all that important to women. They meet a guy and fall for him, usually long before they see his penis. 

If the size of a guy's penis was the basis of picking a mate, there would be some kind of customs that amounted to men lining up to expose their member so that women could pick a guy by his size. It would probably be some huge annual even... the penis competition.. worthy of roasting a hog, great fan fair, etc.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> If the size of a guy's penis was the basis of picking a mate, there would be some kind of customs that amounted to men lining up to expose their member so that women could pick a guy by his size. It would probably be some huge annual even... the penis competition.. worthy of roasting a hog, great fan fair, etc.




I think I saw this in a movie once. If not, seems like a great plot line for a B-rated soft porn flick. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

The Healthy Vagina - The vagina serves as a passageway between the outside of the body and the inner reproductive organs. The pH balance of the vagina is acidic, which discourages infections from occurring. This acidic environment is created by normally-occurring bacteria. A healthy vagina produces secretions to cleanse and regulate itself, similar to how saliva cleanses and regulates the environment of the mouth. These vaginal secretions are normal vaginal discharge. Any interference with the delicate balance of vaginal secretions sets up an environment conducive to infection.

Normal Vaginal Discharge - All women have some vaginal discharge. Normal discharge may appear clear, cloudy white, and/or yellowish when dry on clothing. It may also contain white flecks and at times may be thin and stringy. Changes in normal discharge can occur for many reasons, including menstrual cycle, emotional stressors, nutritional status, pregnancy, usage of medications - including birth control pills, and sexual arousal.

Effects of the Menstrual Cycle - The menstrual cycle affects the vaginal environment. You may notice increased wetness and clear discharge around mid-cycle. The pH balance of the vagina fluctuates during the cycle and is the least acidic on the days just prior to and during menstruation. Infections, therefore, are most common at this time.

Signs of Abnormal Discharge - Any changes in color or amount of discharge may be a sign of a vaginal infection. Vaginal infections are very common; most women will experience some form of a vaginal infection in their lifetime. If you experience any of the symptoms below, this may be a sign of vaginal infection:

Discharge accompanied by itching, rash or soreness
Persistent, increased discharge
Burning on skin during urination
White, clumpy discharge (somewhat like cottage cheese)
Grey/white or yellow/green discharge with a foul odor


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

DustyDog said:


> I may have missed it, but I didn't see depth of the opening mentioned. It makes sense that the tissues can enlarge and shrink...look at the variety of things expected to traverse this channel, from a male organ to a newborn baby.
> 
> I have had several SOs who complained that bumping the cervix caused intense pain. I'm under no delusions of being "hung", so I was puzzled. As these were at least MTR (Moderate Term Relationships) I had the ability to ask about prior experience. All three said that this had been an issue since they became sexually active. One of them did mention that she had a previous lover with whom the problem never occurred, but he was overall so small she couldn't really tell he was there.
> 
> Is this likely to be variations between individual women, or perhaps a sign that stimulation had not been adequate before penetration?



The cervix is not the end of the vagina. It hangs down into the vagina towards the end. Keeping in mind the vagina lengthens during excitation the cervix isnt always located in the same place relative to excitation. During certain times of the month, and I don't know but assume it to be ovulation and or menstrual flow, the cervix is much more sensitive. This varies between women and even at different age groups. 


This diagram shows how the vagina actually continues on a little beyond the cervix.

View attachment 47282


Left to right, anus, Vagina in the middle, urethra on the right.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

The greatest effect on changes of the vagina is associated with peri-menopause and menopause itself:

As seen in the figure (left - the lining of the vagina pre-menopause, right - post menopause). Larry asked for pics



Less elasticity and and a thinner wall along with less glandular secretion that can make intercourse uncomfortable. The length can even shorten, albeit not by a lot.

However, there is research based on Wolffian forms of principles that suggest a positive feedback system. Much like how we think about working out to maintain our muscle mass and aerobic fitness, the vagina is no different. So during peri-menopause and menopause, regular sexual activity can actually slow the thinning, shortening and drying process. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> The cervix is not the end of the vagina. It hangs down into the vagina towards the end. Keeping in mind the vagina lengthens during excitation the cervix isnt always located in the same place relative to excitation. During certain times of the month, and I don't know but assume it to be ovulation and or menstrual flow, the cervix is much more sensitive. This varies between women and even at different age groups.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




There is a condition in which instead of the anteroflex position of the uterus as seen in the pic, a female may have a retroflection in her uterus (not very common). This does change the orientation of the cervix. I'm not familiar as to whether this would cause a situation of penis hitting the cervix, given the elastic accommodation of the vagina itself. But wondered if in fact this may be the situation being asked, previously. 

Again, not my area of expertise. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Ikaika said:


> The greatest effect on changes of the vagina is associated with peri-menopause and menopause itself:
> 
> As seen in the figure (left - the lining of the vagina pre-menopause, right - post menopause). Larry asked for pics
> 
> ...



So there is truth to 'use it or lose it'. Good to know.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> So there is truth to 'use it or lose it'. Good to know.




Yes and I have made my wife aware of this principle. :grin2:


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Ikaika said:


> Why would one need to own a Ferrari where I live when 90% of the time you will be in stop and go traffic.




Because Magnum PI zipped around Hawaii in one. Duh :grin2:


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

More vagina info. (for a while there I thought our vagina thread was becoming a penis size thread)


-TMI, so be warned, I decided to taste myself a couple of years ago. I wanted to know if I was asking my husband to do something unpleasant. SO, I put my finger in and then tasted it. Can't be bad for you, men taste it all the time.

It tasted acidic. Mildly lemony, or like a lighter version of the watery fluid in plain yogurt. But very subtle; it was similar to those things---but not the same strength.

[I would describe the flavor as much, much milder than the flavor of male ejaculate. Which has always tasted a little bit seafoody to me---in a clean, healthy sense.]

I would recommend women do this, if you know you are healthy. That way you know what your husband is "facing" when he is down there. I felt a lot more confident after doing this.

------------------------------------

For the most part my vagina is pretty odorless, to me.

In the days before my period there has always been an odor that I can only describe as "toffee" or "caramel".

Being on my period, smells (slightly) like raw hamburger on the heaviest days. I always use pads. Since the TSS scare in the '80's, I only use tampons if I absolutely have to.

The last day or so of my period, there is sometimes a stale odor than I can't define. I don't like it at all. I don't want my husband near me.

Then it all goes back to near odorless. Unless I exercise a lot. Then it smells a little B.O.-ish. But I think that's from the lymph nodes in the groin area; not the "little lady" :laugh:



> Effects of the Menstrual Cycle - The menstrual cycle affects the vaginal environment. You may notice increased wetness and clear discharge around mid-cycle. The pH balance of the vagina fluctuates during the cycle and is *the least acidic on the days just prior to and during menstruation. Infections, therefore, are most common at this time.*



^^^ I wonder if (the bolded) is why there has been the long-standing tradition of not having intercourse on your period? I used to have sex on my period sometimes when I was young.

Then (after learning about what you state here), I stopped. I just let things clean out and "reset", once a month.

Having an orgasm on my period (I usually am really horny then), feels great. Really helps cramps.

--------------------------------------------

Once again, I can't advise enough against putting scented, cleansing solutions in the vagina, or even the vulva. I have had 3 vaginal infections in my life. 2 were minor, resolved with OTC suppositories.

The one where I had to get a round of oral antibiotics was after I used a flowery, perfumed douche.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> More vagina info. (for a while there I thought our vagina thread was becoming a penis size thread)
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No this will not be another penis thread and hopefully one where the topic can be discussed maturely. Thank you for your insights. TAM can be great place even for these topics. 

Btw, I love the taste of my wife. She often has to signal me to stop and just have coitus already. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*If I fall in love with a woman, I love her vagina as well as all of her other physical and psychological attributes!

That being said, if I am ever reincarnated, please just let me come back as a horny old man or a lesbian!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *If I fall in love with a woman, I love her vagina as well as all of her other physical and psychological attributes!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Reincarnate as one? I already am a horny old man. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> Reincarnate as one? I already am a horny old man.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


*I am, too, I-Man! Just wouldn't mind to getting to have a "round two" in that capacity!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Most common position for the uterus:



Some other possibilities (that can have some complications)



When I have the time I will summarize each from research journals on how they may play difference in sexual intercourse as well as actual reproductive success. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

So first, when I was an undergraduate (pre med program, not degree), we were taught females with a retroverted (not necessarily a retroflexed) uterus would have less success in getting pregnant. From a number of research models over the last twenty years, this is not so much emphasized. Thus a successful pregnancy may actually have little to do with the uterine flexion. 

However, much has been written about women who may experience discomfort during sexual intercourse as it is related to the flexion of the uterus. Women who have retroverted or retroflexed uterus tend to find sexual positions such as her being on top, uncomfortable. As well as any other position that allows the penis to have a direct line of penetration toward the cervix. Changing positions may be necessary for her to experience pleasure from sexual intercourse, coitus. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> More vagina info. (for a while there I thought our vagina thread was becoming a penis size thread)
> 
> 
> -TMI, so be warned, I decided to taste myself a couple of years ago. I wanted to know if I was asking my husband to do something unpleasant. SO, I put my finger in and then tasted it. Can't be bad for you, men taste it all the time.
> ...


I have tasted myself too. Touching it and then putting my fingers in my mouth drives my husband CRAZY. I'm also big on kissing after oral sex.

I can proudly say that my vagina has little to no odor and/or taste and the mild taste/odor it has is not bad. I wouldn't say it tastes great (and is less filling!) but it's not bad. 

My husband LOVES the taste and enthusiastically goes down and sometimes I have to make him stop. He will start PIV and then go back down for more. He will NOT go down if he has ejaculated inside. His own semen grosses him out. He doesn't like to touch it, let alone taste it. Although he really likes to make a mess on my stomach with it, and thinks it's downright HILARIOUS if he accidentally shoots it onto my face. The time it shot up my nose I thought he was going to pass out from laughing so hard.

But I digress. 

I have noticed that different times in my cycle, it does smell different. During menstruation there is a coppery smell. But it's the smell of blood. The days leading up to menstruation, it's my same scent, just a bit more......concentrated.

After a work out.....well, that's not very pleasant, but it's still not fishy or repugnant. It's just not the freshest smell.

The times the odor is the strongest is if my husband and I have had sex at night, he's ejaculated inside me and then I went to bed. In the morning when I go to get in the shower, I can smell the mixture of his stuff with my stuff and to me - it's the most intoxicating smell in the world. Incredibly sexy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Can we talk about fun bags now?


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Marc878 said:


> Can we talk about fun bags now?




Different thread maybe?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> In most cases, the size of the penis fits pretty well into the stretchable organ that accommodates various sizes. In the rare case of the large male copulatory organ causing discomfort, positional changes do the trick, yes that is often all it takes. This is a stretchable and accommodating organ, not some stiff gapping hole.
> 
> So, I find it interesting all the stuff about "his" size, when the stretchable vagina is able to accommodate the average male copulatory organ just fine.


Good post. I haven't read the whole thread so sorry if I'm repeating, but I will just add that women pass an entire baby's head through there so, I agree, girth of a typical penis isn't an issue. Length could be, but you already discussed this.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I realize that this article is more than 30 years old but recent studies on this similar topic supports rather than refutes the evidence. 

Here is the abstract:

Vaginal Atrophy in the Postmenopausal Woman

ABSTRACT

The effect of sexual activity on vaginal atrophy was investigated in a group of 52 postmenopausal women (mean age, 57 years). Subjects were divided into two groups: sexually active (intercourse frequency, three or more times monthly) and sexually inactive (intercourse frequency, less than ten times yearly). Two gynecologists examined all subjects and completed an index of vaginal atrophy that assessed six genital dimensions. Blood samples were also analyzed by radioimmunoassay for levels of circulating estrone, estradiol, androstenedione, testosterone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and luteinizing hormone (LH). As predicted, less vaginal atrophy was apparent in the sexually active women as opposed to the sexually inactive women. Further, women with less vaginal atrophy had significantly higher mean levels of androgens (androstenedione and testosterone) and gonadotropins (particularly LH). We discuss herein the implications of this study, particularly the importance of androgens in reducing atrophy and maintaining sexual interest.

(JAMA 1983;249:2195-2198)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> The times the odor is the strongest is if my husband and I have had sex at night, he's ejaculated inside me and then I went to bed. In the morning when I go to get in the shower, I can smell the mixture of his stuff with my stuff and to me - it's the most intoxicating smell in the world. Incredibly sexy.


Same. I love the smell.

Does the pineapple juice thing work for women as well as men? Just curious.


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> I realize that this article is more than 30 years old but recent studies on this similar topic supports rather than refutes the evidence.
> 
> Here is the abstract:
> 
> ...


The longer we women take hormones, however, the more chance of things like a stroke. Same for HRT. It's a risk-reward issue for some women.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

sapientia said:


> The longer we women take hormones, however, the more chance of things like a stroke. Same for HRT. It's a risk-reward issue for some women.




This is always one of those personal things one hopes are important discussions between Ob/Gyn and the patient. I can understand why some women would want to have hormonal replacement therapy, but always the risk should be discussed and health monitored. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> This is always one of those personal things one hopes are important discussions between Ob/Gyn and the patient.


Spouses too. I wonder how many husbands understand the risks to their wives taking the hormones? I bet more H would decide to get vasectomies, for example, if they knew birth control increased their W's risk of an clot as she gets older.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

sapientia said:


> Spouses too. I wonder how many husbands understand the risks to their wives taking the hormones? I bet more H would decide to get vasectomies, for example, if they knew birth control increased their W's risk of an clot as she gets older.




Agree


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Sounds like what your saying is more sex when you are older eliminates or at least minimizes the need for HRT.

I like it. Now how do we get the word out and convince the LD women that it is all for their own good?


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> Sounds like what your saying is more sex when you are older eliminates or at least minimizes the need for HRT.
> 
> 
> 
> I like it. Now how do we get the word out and convince the LD women that it is all for their own good?




Well, I'm not saying that, however it is what is suggested by studies done since 1983. 

This thread is a great place to put out the word. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

So are there studies done on vagina size and circumference? A few, however I found this one to be most informative:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-0528.2004.00517.x/full

Attention: there are actual photos in this study. So, if you are offended by vaginal photos, don't click on the study. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> Well, I'm not saying that, however it is what is suggested by studies done since 1983.
> 
> This thread is a great place to put out the word.
> 
> ...


It's a chicken-egg argument. Do older women who naturally make more T want more sex? Or does more sex cause older women to make more T.

Sounds like Tron is volunteering for the experiment, either way.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

sapientia said:


> It's a chicken-egg argument. Do older women who naturally make more T want more sex? Or does more sex cause older women to make more T.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like Tron is volunteering for the experiment, either way.




These can always be hard studies to explain to those that do not completely understand the hormonal loop (feedback systems) - Wolffian principles and limitations of individual females. 

I'm trying to conduct my own study. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> I'm trying to conduct my own study.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


LOL! Good for you both. :smile2:


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> The cervix is not the end of the vagina. It hangs down into the vagina towards the end. *Keeping in mind the vagina lengthens during excitation the cervix isnt always located in the same place relative to excitation.* During certain times of the month, and I don't know but assume it to be ovulation and or menstrual flow, the cervix is much more sensitive. This varies between women and even at different age groups.


Yes, the vagina lengthens and her cervix moves out of the way, futher into her body. And that's why foreplay is a thing! If a woman isn't turned on before PIV, it can feel physically uncomfortable or painful for her, and lube does not solve that problem.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Ikaika said:


> This is always one of those personal things one hopes are important discussions between Ob/Gyn and the patient. I can understand why some women would want to have hormonal replacement therapy, but always the risk should be discussed and health monitored.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I wish more women would research the impact of diet on their health and sexual health. OK I am only 49 but am already post menopausal, no HRT, no change to libido, no lube needed, ever. Very little in the way of peri. symptoms such as hot flushes, weight gain, moodiness etc. Am a big believer in eating to live and have a healthy vegetarian diet full of soy, seeds nuts, fresh fruit and veges, all things that can help women through the middle years and see them get to the other side of menopause with minimal impact.

Just as men can improve lowering T into middle age and beyond, women can also improve and/or avoid the impact of age on their health and sex drives.

I love my vagina, MrH loves it too


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Tron said:


> Sounds like what your saying is more sex when you are older eliminates or at least minimizes the need for HRT.
> 
> I like it. Now how do we get the word out and convince the LD women that it is all for their own good?


Not quite. Having sex does NOT preclude the need for HRT.

Exercising the menopausal vagina, by having sex,keeps the menopausal vagina in a heather state. The vagina stays more elastic, the lining of the vagina does not thin as much as the sedentary vagina.

I take HRT and for me it is a godsend. The hot flashes 20-30 per day, the night sweats (waking up absolutely drenched from head to toe) happened up to 3 times a night, the mood swiftly changing from one extreme to another were awful. But, when sex became painful and my orgasms went from early and often to late or never....drastic action was necessary! Since I've been on HRT the hot flashes, night sweats, mood changes, painful intercourse and orgasm difficulty have nearly disappeared.

My GYN said that the common scare about cancer risk was based on 1 longitudinal study that included all ages of women and did not break the findings into appropriate group. She said when women begin HRT between year 1-3 of menopause onset, the risk of cancer is not increased. The risk of stroke ....I can't remember that one but I recall it also being statistically not indicative of increased risk.

I am thankful for HRT because living without sex or orgasms is like living without chocolate or coffee. Just shoot me now!





Ikaika said:


> So are there studies done on vagina size and circumference? A few, however I found this one to be most informative:
> 
> Female genital appearance: []normality? unfolds - Lloyd - 2004 - BJOG: An International Journal of Obstetrics & Gynaecology - Wiley Online Library
> 
> ...



That was fascinating! Once again we are reminded that the penis has been studied up one side and down the other with charts and grafts that break down normal penis erection size between races and BMI, but only recently have we begun to document what exactly is normal for female genitals, labia majora and minor length/width, distance from clitoris to urethra, distance from clitoris to vagina, length and width of clitoris, length of vagina. And the answer is....normal is what ever is propped up between the stirrups.


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> My GYN said that the common scare about cancer risk was based on 1 longitudinal study that included all ages of women and did not break the findings into appropriate group. She said when women begin HRT between year 1-3 of menopause onset, the risk of cancer is not increased. *The risk of stroke ....I can't remember that one but I recall it also being statistically not indicative of increased risk.*


For general healthy women, it's low. For anyone with other CVD risk like high C, high BP, obesity or prior history, they should discuss the risks with their doc.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Ok, Ok!!!! I got it. Pour pineapple juice on her vagina.

Now can we talk about fun bags ? :grin2:


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> That was fascinating! *Once again we are reminded that the penis has been studied up one side and down the other with charts and grafts that break down normal penis erection size between races and BMI*, but only recently have we begun to document what exactly is normal for female genitals, labia majora and minor length/width, distance from clitoris to urethra, distance from clitoris to vagina, length and width of clitoris, length of vagina. And the answer is....normal is what ever is propped up between the stirrups.




Yes and TAM too has had its share of penis threads. It is time we discuss (maturely) and celebrate the woman's garden. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## btterflykisses (Apr 29, 2016)

Thank you now we can all have coffee and cake.


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Just to make the point, even though I like to think I'm a fairly objective thinker, I'm *still* a bit surprised each time I see 'vagina' in the thread title section of the forum. Penis--no problem. I hope our next generation isn't mind-f'd this way.

Anyway, it's been fun. Tomorrow a new work week begins. Have a good one.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

btterflykisses said:


> Thank you now we can all have coffee and cake.


Not yet. First we have to slip off our panties and grab the hand held mirror and say a heartfelt 'hello and thank you' to our magnificent vaginas!


----------



## btterflykisses (Apr 29, 2016)

btterflykisses said:


> Thank you now we can all have coffee and cake.


I liked the post I am having a giggle to myself. Every occasion goes better with cake.


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)




----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Ikaika said:


> Let's not forget regardless of her vagina, her *most important sex organ is her brain* (cerebral cortex).





VladDracul said:


> Now if you can address the psychology of why most men would prefer to be two standard deviations on the right side of the bell curve as opposed to the left side of the bell curve.
> Moreover, I've heard some women claim they want a man three standard deviations on the right side of the curve.


I think the bolded answers the question underneath it.

When somebody is looking for a casual partner, physical attraction is more important than everything else. When one is looking for a long term partner, it's no longer at the top of the list. Blinded by love, and all that.

And although women can't see a man's junk until it's go-time, assumptions will be made, even subconsciously, and partners will be selected based on these assumptions. If a man is too big or too small, then whatever, it's casual. Move along.

Basically, if there's enough of an attraction in all other ways, things like penis size will be overlooked, and it becomes a non-issue, because, theoretically, it is. All the other things take precedence, and the physical can be worked around, if necessary.

Having picked up a few things here and there in my years, as well as here on TAM, bigger (thicker) IS more desirable. This "one or two standard deviations" bigger is preferable. Not mandatory, mind you, but preferable. And the deviations are relative to the woman, as well, because not all women are built the same.

The thing I've heard over and over again, IRL, on TAM, and elsewhere, is that, generally speaking, women want a snug fit, something that hits the spot(s) at all times, rather than just hits it upon thrusting. As people say, something that "fills you up". It's preferable, again not mandatory.

The same is true for men. A tighter vagina is preferable - again, not mandatory, just preferable.

At the end of the day, however, it DOESN'T matter - love and attraction trumps physical every time. The best sex I've ever had in my life is with my wife, who does not have a small, tight vagina. My ex wife was too tight for me. The others I've had experience with were "good fits". My wife does not have my preferred size (nor I hers, I imagine) but that's not what makes the sex good or great.

But yes - if women and men were able to pick and choose a sex partner based on size (everything else notwithstanding), women would choose the thickest they could envision handling, and men would choose the tightest. Usually 1 or 2 (or more) deviations away from the norm. I believe some European university did a "scientific" study on this recently, using 3d printed penis-shaped objects as the control. The majority of women, if I recall, chose the ones larger than average.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Ikaika said:


> There is is even stronger evidence that females select due to other factors - height and health (immune response traits) more so than something more hidden among our species, penis size.


As a shorter man, I can agree with this!

I have dated ~a dozen women in my life. Not a lot, but I've also been married twice, and had an LTR, so my "single" time has been dramatically reduced.

All of these relationships, save for one, evolved from a friendship. ie. once a girl got to know me, they were attracted, and we started dating. Only once did a girl have an immediate attraction to me where things progressed. She was a shade under 5'. I'm 5'7".

ALL of them have remarked on my relative short stature at some point - except for her. Not in a condescending way, or a way that I might be insulted at, but nonetheless. My ex wife told me once she'd never dated anybody as short as me. My current wife is 5'6" and wouldn't wear heels while with me, thinking I wouldn't like it (until I mentioned she's more than welcome. In other words, she presumed I wouldn't appreciate her being taller than me in heels!)

Tall men get interest. That's just the way it is. I'm decent looking, if not average. If I was 6'2" with the same features, I'd have had far more than 1 girl be attracted to me without being friends first. That's just the way it goes. Taller = more manly, healthy, etc.

Studies have shown that the correlation between height and penis size is inconsequential. Certain body parts (ears, nose, and yes, penis) grow independently from the rest of the body. Appendages that contain bones WILL grow in proportion, however. The odds that a 6'2" man will have a bigger penis than a 5'2" man are almost non-existent, to the point of it not being an accurate measure of anything.

However the psychological aspect is present, and people WILL assume that's the case. It's not that difficult to trick the brain into thinking that everything is 100% proportionate.


----------



## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Similar to what Ikakia posted I suggest any lady unsure of their vulva check out the labia library.com 

Can be NSFW(not safe for work) if you look at the gallery. While not the vagina per se, this may help some ladies see other non porn vulvas to see how they can vary. Might help realize that any good husband or boyfriend isnt going to be grossed out because yours is "different".

Good thread I.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

So back to our detailed discussion about the vagina

The anatomy of the vagina: starts at the vulva and extend to the inner cervix. The vulva includes the mons pubis (Latin for “pubic mound”), labia majora (outer lips), labia minora (inner lips), clitoris, and the external opening of the vagina (technically include the urethral opening as well). 

While we know the the clitoris is place of intense stimulation (contains far more somatic sensory nerve ending than its male homologous counterpart), the first one third of the vagina has bundles of somatic sensory (pleasure and pain connection to the brain) nerve endings and plays an important role in possible pleasure associated with sexual intercourse. Most are familiar with the infamous G-spot.

About a third of the way up from the vaginal opening, on the anterior (front) wall of the vagina (the side toward your abdomen), is an area known as the Gräfenberg spot, or G-spot. Many women experience intensely pleasurable sensations when this area is stimulated. There are differences of opinion over whether the G-spot is a distinct anatomical structure or whether the pleasure felt when the area is stimulated is due to its closeness to the bulbs of the clitoris.

Needless to say whether the G-spot is an anatomical variant for some females but not all, the first one third of the vagina along with the clitoris is an important stimulatory region. 

The remaining two thirds with is made up three layer (as is the first one third) mucosae, muscular (smooth muscle intertwined with some erectile and elastic tissue - contributing to the expansion of the vagina during coitus and labor). However the final two thirds has less bundles of direct pleasure nerve endings. In this region the nerve endings are a mix of visceral (autonomic reflexes helping with involuntary expansion due to pressure from coitus or labor) and pressure. Intense pressure can be the reason for discomfort experienced by some women. Thus one could divide the vagina into two regions, the anterior (from the vulva) to one third of the opening is truly a sexual organ (experiencing pleasure sensation of sex) while the remains two thirds is associated with labor and delivery (birthing canal). 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Middle of Everything said:


> Similar to what Ikakia posted I suggest any lady unsure of their vulva check out the labia library.com
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, the lady garden can vary quite bit and the beauty of this area is just as beautiful and unique as any other part of her. The "same" is boring (porn stars making modification for whatever distorted "same" aesthetic quality someone else decided on)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Middle of Everything said:


> Similar to what Ikakia posted I suggest any lady unsure of their vulva check out the labia library.com
> 
> Can be NSFW(not safe for work) if you look at the gallery. While not the vagina per se, this may help some ladies see other non porn vulvas to see how they can vary. Might help realize that any good husband or boyfriend isnt going to be grossed out because yours is "different".
> 
> Good thread I.


.org not .com

There are the pictures, much improved 😀


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

The above mentioned website does bring up an interesting tangent.

Apparently in Australia the dividing line between soft porn and hard porn is the visibility of labia minora. Further, they have harsh laws restricting "hard" porn.

The response is that the porn industry will not employ women who have visible labia minora because her labia minora are large enough to be visible while her legs aren't spread. Some wishing to go in porn have had surgury to remove some of their labia.

That has led many of both genders there to view large labia minora as an aberration and an uptic on surgury to have it trimmed down. This website is in response in an attempt to change that view.

I just hope to see the same approach on discouraging male circumcision. Removal of the labia minora is analogous to male circumcision.


----------



## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

That is so sad, larry. The labia minora are so delightfully sensitive! I would not give up a millimeter of sensation for appearance.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

norajane said:


> That is so sad, larry. The labia minora are so delightfully sensitive! I would not give up a millimeter of sensation for appearance.




Nor should any woman. What is beautiful (appearance) is what is unique and hers alone. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> The above mentioned website does bring up an interesting tangent.
> 
> Apparently in Australia the dividing line between soft porn and hard porn is the visibility of labia minora. Further, they have harsh laws restricting "hard" porn.
> 
> ...


Then add in idiot guys who call some vulva/labia: roast beef or meat flaps etc. All stupid terms for women who might just have some sexy labia.

Didnt know that about Aussie porn. again porn strikes. Makes women feel bad for having less than D cups, and normal labia. Makes guys feel bad for packing less than 8. I think there is such a thing but there needs to be more "normal people" porn.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

The somatic and autonomic stimulatory nerve endings and how wire into the hypothalamic and cerebral cortex brain gives a far more interesting picture as to how females and males respond to sexual activity. 

It's was recognized back in the 60s, the infamous Masters and Johnson studies, the physiological phases of the sexual response. The original model was built around a linear responses (phases): Desire - Excitement - Plateau - Orgasm - Resolution. Essentially this was applied to both genders. Studies in the mid-seventies refined this by realizing females have less of a linear response model and the resolution phase can often muddle back into excitement/plateau phases and thus leading to multiple orgasms. 

The wiring of the nerve ending and how they integrate their signals into the brain tell the story, some of which we still don't have a clear picture of, but speculation of this has more to do with nerve endings from the vagina than from the clitoris. Some speculate why some women experience a mix of pain upon over stimulation of the clitoris alone because of the phases it wires to in the hypothalamus. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Marc878 said:


> Can we talk about fun bags now?


B(o ) ( o)Bs?


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Vaginal dryness can be and unfortunate loop of events:

It can be due to hormonal changes (life changing events - peri menopause and menopause) as well as psychological (insufficient arousal). In either case this results in painful sex and thus regardless of the cause leads to less sexual desire (understandably so) - loop of not wanting to engage in this activity thus physiological or other (see below) can be exacerbated by the psychological. 

However there are other causes to vaginal dryness - medications (especially allergy medications that affect mucosal tissue), irritants (soaps, perfumes, etc) and anxiety (various issues not always related to sex itself). 

So, in the case of vaginal dryness it is imperative to find the root cause (Ob/Gyn in some cases, psychologist - specializing in sexual disorders, or other specialist depending on the cause) in which to regenerate both libido and reduce the vaginal dryness (possibly breaking this related cyclic event). 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thank you for this thread Ikaika.


----------



## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

Ikaika said:


> Vaginal dryness can be and unfortunate loop of events:
> 
> It can be due to hormonal changes (life changing events - peri menopause and menopause) as well as psychological (insufficient arousal). In either case this results in painful sex and thus regardless of the cause leads to less sexual desire (understandably so) - loop of not wanting to engage in this activity thus physiological or other (see below) can be exacerbated by the psychological.
> 
> ...


Along this subject, do you have any suggestions for treating lichen sclerosus?
It's more of a dermatological issue, not vaginal, except that it has occurred in the vaginal area. What limited information I've found on it is that it's believed to be caused by hormonal changes.
Would hit help to have her hormone levels checked?
The only treatment the doctor as provided is cortisone cream which in and of itself has unwanted side effects such as skin thinning and in her case it removes sensitivity from the clitoris. The Obgyn admitted to have little knowledge on the condition.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

JamesTKirk said:


> Along this subject, do you have any suggestions for treating lichen sclerosus?
> 
> It's more of a dermatological issue, not vaginal, except that it has occurred in the vaginal area. What limited information I've found on it is that it's believed to be caused by hormonal changes.
> 
> ...




Cortisone cream may also cause some added dryness (anything reducing inflammation will decrease normal mucosal secretions). However, I'm sure you have been told the blistering patches can cause scars which can be a source of problems in urinating and sex. So, I get the feeling the treatment with cortisone cream is or reduce the blister patches, preventative. It is the typical course of treatment. 

Since the exact etiology is unknown, there is no possible treatment of the disease just mitigation of symptoms. So, I get the protocol that has been recommended. 

But to your question and some thought on the condition. There is some thought that this condition may be related to:

Low estrogen levels
Infection (other non related skin infection)
Allergy to the medication.

Is she seeing a dermatologist? Maybe a test for other infections, allergies and possibly a hormone profile might help in looking for other treatment possibilities. I'm not sure how you would inquire, but asking questions and showing an active but mindful involvement is great way to go. It really does go long way when a physician knows you are part of the "team". I wish you guys the best. 

Btw, if sexual intercourse is painful has she ever considered using vaginal creams when her LS is not flaring up? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

Ikaika said:


> Cortisone cream may also cause some added dryness (anything reducing inflammation will decrease normal mucosal secretions). However, I'm sure you have been told the blistering patches can cause scars which can be a source of problems in urinating and sex. So, I get the feeling the treatment with cortisone cream is or reduce the blister patches, preventative. It is the typical course of treatment.
> 
> Since the exact etiology is unknown, there is no possible treatment of the disease just mitigation of symptoms. So, I get the protocol that has been recommended.
> 
> ...


I suspect #1 (low E) because the condition started not long after she started having more dryness and a major drop in libido. Not terribly long after that itching and pain occurred along with skin cracking which she was told to treat with a creme until another doctor figured out lichen sclerosus.
I doubt allergy as she hasn't been on any medications.
And a biopsy (OUCH!!) was done to rule out many other conditions, cancer, or infections. She described the stitches as "feels like having a lego shoved up her V"

Which brings me back to hormones. Last week I suggested she look into a hormone test. I don't know what would come of that except she'd know her estrogen was low except a doctor could advise her on what or if she should do anything about it.

Fortunately she did 1 week with the cortisone, it sort of "went away" and she's been doing well for a few weeks. Clitoral sensitivity seems to be slowly coming back. When she's too dry we use lube now, and that has been fine.

Yes, I think the next steps is to get her referred to dermatology. Also I think a follow up with her OBGYN for a hormone test might be a good idea. I think we've ruled out anything else but you never know. A 2nd Derm opinion could help.

Yes, it has had made our sex life challenging before I knew what was going on. Now that I know I'm giving support, encouragement, and being on her team.

Thanks for your advice. I will have her follow up with doctors. Diagnosis and initial treatment was only about 5 weeks ago.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

JamesTKirk said:


> I suspect #1 (low E) because the condition started not long after she started having more dryness and a major drop in libido. Not terribly long after that itching and pain occurred along with skin cracking which she was told to treat with a creme until another doctor figured out lichen sclerosus.
> I doubt allergy as she hasn't been on any medications.
> And a biopsy (OUCH!!) was done to rule out many other conditions, cancer, or infections. She described the stitches as "feels like having a lego shoved up her V"
> 
> ...




Just show the doctor(s) you are both active in not just trying to treat the symptoms but maintain quality of life. A good physician will listen and help you both. It sounds like you are both doing all the right thing. I wish you the best. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I provide a link in case some one needs further information:
> 
> How can I tighten my loose vagina?!? | Go Ask Alice!
> 
> ...



I read the linked article, and it does appear that the medical community recognizes muscle atrophy or damage (are those the correct words???), can occur in this region.

I don't know if the "loosening" occurs in the actual, technical "vagina", or, in the *pelvic floor muscles that cross this area.*











The top would be the pubic bone, the first opening is the urethra, the much larger opening below is where the tubular vagina would be located, then the perineum, then the anus.

That web of muscle is the pelvic floor. And pregnancy, weight gain, hormonal changes (menopause) can affect its strength and elasticity .. . . which can be regained largely with kegels; but also, in the "Go Ask Alice" article; there are medical office procedures that are available to help tone weakened pelvic floor muscles.

What I'm getting at, is that it may not be the vagina that is loose. But if the bands of muscle surrounding it become loose, then that is what is causing a loss of sensation for the woman and her partner. Not *all* women. But some.

There isn't any shame in it. Kegels really do work.

I haven't had children. But at around 45, I started to notice that when I sneezed or coughed or laughed; sometimes a drop or two of pee would come out; yikes.

So, I got this clamp called the kegelmaster. It was a hassle, I used it for about a year. It had springs in it, and you put it 3" inside and squeezed it shut over and over again.

It definitely worked. I had 100% resolution of the issue. I now keep it up with just regular kegels.

So, getting looser down there is "a thing".

The most severe end of the spectrum would be vaginal prolapse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_prolapse

Obviously, being mean to a woman about this isn't very nice. It seems that most men get sufficient stimulation to orgasm, even if a woman isn't a flesh vise.

Everything I've read suggests that even if you never have sex again, you should do kegels anyway , they are really good for the health of the pelvic region, for men and women.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I read the linked article, and it does appear that the medical community recognizes muscle atrophy or damage (are those the correct words???), can occur in this region.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




One huge problem with the Columbia go ask Alice inquiry is that it was incomplete and as referenced it was assumed that the vagina gets larger and does nor retract after giving birth. Such is not true and this is due in fact to a series of related conditions. A condition that can be related to childbearing, but often not seen until later in life. 

The problem with using Internet references, is that one can use what scant Information available at times to shore up ones argument. 

Anyway this certainly is a worthwhile topic to discuss:

http://www.uchospitals.edu/specialties/pelvic/faq/pelvic-floor-disorders.html


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I do think it is worth discussing, that is:

"Will my vagina be stretched to a new normal after giving birth?"

This is always an interesting topic with lots of misconceptions. No doubt if she takes a hand held mirror and looks at the opening of her vagina days after giving birth, it will appear as if it is larger. Well, it is larger. It was stretched larger to accommodate something much larger than any penis. But, we have to remember there are areas of the body meant to stretch and then later rebound back to its relaxed elastic self. 

So, to answer the question, we need to again realize that the vaginal canal is surrounded by a middle layer of both muscle and elastic fibers. As well supportive tissue (perineal membrane) and the remaining pelvic floor are elastic and muscular (respectively). The properties of elastic tissue may seem apparent (think of a rubber band) but what may surprise people is that muscle tissue is both elastic as well as actively contractile. So in principle once stretched, both elastic and muscle tissues should reset back to normal relaxed size. 

For most women, especially younger women, this will be the case for the vaginal canal. It may take up six weeks, but she will likely be as she was before pregnancy. There are some caveats to this - if she experienced severe tearing (up to third degree - based in size and depth), the elastic tissue and possibly muscle might be forever damaged. This is not as if she will now have a gapping hole, but there might be a new "looser" normal. There may even be a lose of some sensitivity, due to scar tissue build up. This affects around 10% of all females who have gone to term through the entire gestational period. 

There are ways to reduce the probability this happening:

Taking care of ones self through the pregnancy, maintaining healthy tissue that will heal faster after birth.

Having some muscle mass prior to getting pregnant. 

Controlling for gestational diabetes. These women tend to give birth to larger babies and run a higher risk of severe tearing 

Eliminating bad habits like smoking - toxins in cigarettes are known to weaken elastic fibers.

Unfortunately with age elastic tissue hardens and muscle tissue atrophies - however being aware of this just means caring for yourself even more as the years roll on. While no one can completely eliminate muscle atrophy and elastic hardening, one can through a healthy and active lifestyle slow these processes down. 

I hope this did not sound to esoteric in anatomy in language. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika, 

I read what you posted and I wondered why it is that most first pregnancies take many hours for the vagina to dilate to 10 cm or the normal size to allow the birth without more than perennial tearing? 

Usually, the second and any successive births take much less time. Doesn't that sort of go against the notion that the vagina is as elastic as you seem to think? 

Maybe there's another reason? 

Kegels do work, by the way. Not trying to shame anyone, I'm just in a little disbelief at the suggestions.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Ikaika,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't have a notion that the vagina is elastic, it simply is elastic. But you are talking about a different organ. 

There is a huge misconception around the average first v second labor time. While a lot lay websites indicate that the first time, the average time is 18 hours and subsequent at down to twelve. None of these sites consider other factors that could be affecting this process. However if we are taking just dilation time, we are no longer talking about vaginal tissue. The cervix, technically is uterine tissue and because the tissue layers are not quite the same, this organ may in fact stretch to a new normal. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> I don't have a notion that the vagina is elastic, it simply is elastic. But you are talking about a different organ.
> 
> There is a huge misconception around the average first v second labor time. While a lot lay websites indicate that the first time, the average time is 18 hours and subsequent at down to twelve. None of these sites consider other factors that could be affecting this process. However if we are taking just dilation time, we are no longer talking about vaginal tissue. The cervix, technically is uterine tissue and because the tissue layers are not quite the same, this organ may in fact stretch to a new normal.
> 
> ...


It's the cervix is what they are measuring and not the vagina? Okay. I had that all wrong. See how much I'm learning? :laugh:


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> It's the cervix is what they are measuring and not the vagina? Okay. I had that all wrong. See how much I'm learning? :laugh:




Yes, they are measuring the cervix, which is caused in part due to the pressure from the fetus which is located in the uterus. Always an abundance of things to learn about the human body, even for me. 

So, yea, the uterus gets a workout and becomes more efficient at subsequent pregnancies. That is until peri-menopause, when it begins to atrophy. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

This thread is like a trip to the gynecologists!  



Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0780622/

Watch the trailer. It's says it's for all audiences and I didn't see any nudity. I would still think it might be NSFW.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Always important to know on this topic:

http://www.indifferentlanguages.com/words/vagina


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Ikaika said:


> . . . but there might be a new "looser" normal. There may even be a lose of some sensitivity, due to scar tissue build up. This affects around 10% of all females who have gone to term through the entire gestational period.
> 
> *There are ways to reduce the probability this happening:*
> 
> ...



I think girls from about the age of 12 onwards should be taught about their body. Specifically the vagina. 

They should be educated, by age-appropriate materials what you are referring to above.

And from the youngest age, should start doing kegels and other exercises like yoga squats, Cobbler pose, and so forth----that both strengthen and increase flexibility and circulation in that part of their body that is uniquely female.

But of course, to do that, we'd all have to openly admit that girls have vaginas (*in a non-sexual sense*); and we don't seem able to do that as a society.

Can you imagine a girls only PE class, where young women are taught these ideas for a semester in high school?

Or if a girl sees her moms ben-wa balls in the bathroom; asks what they are, and gets a level-headed, matter-of-fact answer.

I think it would make pregnancy and aging a lot less scary for women if they had access to this information from a young age.


----------



## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I think girls from about the age of 12 onwards should be taught about their body. Specifically the vagina.
> 
> They should be educated, by age-appropriate materials what you are referring to above.
> 
> ...


Every girl that age should be given a copy of "Our Bodies, Ourselves" (the gold standard for information about the female body).

http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/publications/our-bodies-ourselves-2011/

Everything she needs to know is in there.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> One huge problem with the Columbia go ask Alice inquiry is that it was incomplete and as referenced it was assumed that the vagina gets larger and does nor retract after giving birth. Such is not true and this is due in fact to a series of related conditions. A condition that can be related to childbearing, but often not seen until later in life.
> 
> The problem with using Internet references, is that one can use what scant Information available at times to shore up ones argument.
> 
> ...


The problem with the medical establishment is that it can take decades before the obvious is finally accepted in all layers of 'professionalism'. Much of the medical knowledge is still medieval in character. Even in the days of internet it can take a couple of decades before the opinion (sic!) of your medical practitioner is corrected by new insights.

May I remind of the Atkins story. For many decades this man was like burned at the stake for his 'unscientific' ideas and speculations, while the arguments and data were widely available.

But now, almost all diets advocate against carbs in one or other way.

Even yesterday I heard athletes at in Rio talk about their diets: Low in carbs, High in protein without exception. Medal candidates, top athletes.

Thanks to the internet people eager to know could have known the validity of this decades ago. In contrast with the 'experts', that is.

So a little moderation would be in its place regarding the science at this moment.

Needless to say that cultural correct opinions also influence the medical opinions in the subject area. That is why I added to the discussion.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> The problem with the medical establishment is that it can take decades before the obvious is finally accepted in all layers of 'professionalism'. Much of the medical knowledge is still medieval in character. Even in the days of internet it can take a couple of decades before the opinion (sic!) of your medical practitioner is corrected by new insights.
> 
> May I remind of the Atkins story. For many decades this man was like burned at the stake for his 'unscientific' ideas and speculations, while the arguments and data were widely available.
> 
> ...




Science typically makes conservative suggestions when it comes to theorizing or developing hypotheses. So, moderation is exactly how science functions. 

Having said that the example of what a healthy diet consists of even for elite athletes can be contentious. To suggest a persons diet made the difference between a gold medal and a silver while ignoring genetics, training techniques, sleep habits etc is fools gold. Thus I don't put a lot cred on what an Olympic athlete assumes is the optimal diet for a best performance.

The internet is cacophony of both sound and bogus information. The difficulty for most is the ability to winnow away the "chaff from useful grain"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Needless to say that* cultural correct opinions also influence the medical opinions in the subject area*. That is why I added to the discussion.




I think this is true.


There are some things we are not allowed to say.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Btw S_L_L you are welcome to contribute. Thus you are welcome to provide your opinion even if some of it may go beyond or even contrary to any good scientific evidence. However, I ask you keep this thread on the vagina rather than make into the 101st thread about the penis, please. 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> Btw S_L_L you are welcome to contribute. Thus you are welcome to provide your opinion even if some of it may go beyond or even contrary to any good scientific evidence. However, I ask you keep this thread on the vagina rather than make into the 101st thread about the penis, please.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I did not make this thread about penis. This is a low reaction to the points I added. It just examplified a principle of evolutionary biology.

The principle of evolutionary biology is something you want me to prove with 'good scientific evidence'? How strange. It has been explained very well by the specialists in the field I would say.

btw I got banned for some reason I could not find. Were you insulted?


----------



## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> This whole thing about women selecting mates based on penis size makes little sense.
> 
> Why? Because for thousands of years, most women did not pick their mate. Their parents picked him for her. And the woman was/is usually a virgin. So she has no idea about whether or not penis size matters in sex.
> 
> ...


HAHAHA! That may be the funniest thing I've read this morning. Thank you for that image. Would this festival end with fireworks? :grin2:


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I did not make this thread about penis. This is a low reaction to the points I added. It just examplified a principle of evolutionary biology.
> 
> The principle of evolutionary biology is something you want me to prove with 'good scientific evidence'? How strange. It has been explained very well by the specialists in the field I would say.
> 
> btw I got banned for some reason I could not find. Were you insulted?




If you were banned from something you said on this thread, I was not aware of it. You did not insult me, nor did I report you. 

I'm not sure you have a clear awareness of evolutionary biology as it relates to the topic. The average penis size is average for a reason (genetic selection would appear to weaken your argument) and the accommodating female copulation organ suggest a true evolutionary argument indeed. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Didn't insult me either.

Hey @Ikaika, I gots a serious question about the vageena. 

If a woman has to use kegels to tighten herself, does it make a difference in her ability to enjoy sex and orgasm? I mean, if she is squeezing intentionally, doesn't that take away from just lying back and enjoying herself? 

My assumption here is that the vagina does the squeezing without her intentional input. Am I correct there? Or, a tampon would fall out, right? Or she'd have some really bad muscle cramps from holding it in all day? Guessing here.

Help please? 

I said please... Oh, and thank you for the response. See Ele? 0


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Didn't insult me either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Let's not forget enjoying sex requires the use of the largest sex organ, ones brain. However more to your question, the sexual act itself for both males and females is hardly just a sit back and relax event. This will involve muscle tension for both partners. There is a huge difference between holding a solid position for an entire day and creating alternating tension throughout sexual activity. So, here phasic squeezing which may happen during sex is not going to take away from his/her pleasure at all. Sex like math is best done as a participatory event rather than a passive one. Muscle tension and brain action will always be required respectively. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> Let's not forget enjoying sex requires the use of the largest sex organ, ones brain. However more to your question, the sexual act itself for both males and females is hardly just a sit back and relax event. This will involve muscle tension for both partners. There is a huge difference between holding a solid position for an entire day and creating alternating tension throughout sexual activity. So, here phasic squeezing which may happen during sex is not going to take away from his/her pleasure at all. Sex like math is best done as a participatory event rather than a passive one. Muscle tension and brain action will always be required respectively.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


So, the nerve endings aren't gone, and the squeezing happens normally anyway to a degree, thus stimulation is still good? 

Okay, I wasn't thinking broadly enough. Thank you.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> So, the nerve endings aren't gone, and the squeezing happens normally anyway to a degree, thus stimulation is still good?
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I wasn't thinking broadly enough. Thank you.




I'm not sure what you mean by the nerve ending aren't gone? Squeezing does not eliminate nerve endings. 

Yes, squeezing happens normally. Think of what happens when food is in your mouth. Some of the chewing is conscious, some of it is simply reflexive due the oral pressure that the food places on the oral cavity walls. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I was just being a little sarcastic with myself because I hadn't thought it through enough.

It was a duh moment for me when I read your post.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> I'm not sure you have a clear awareness of evolutionary biology as it relates to the topic


I understand from evolutionary biology that its principle is that because of evolutionary mechanisms anything that exists in biology has come to exist because of these mechanisms.

So if there is a certain prevailing gene expression leading to physical or mental attributes of an organism that has to be there because of its evolutionary benefits.

I also know that proponents of this theory meet cultural criticism on extremes of the theory when taboos are touched by the theory, but those critics are not scientific.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I understand from evolutionary biology that its principle is that because of evolutionary mechanisms anything that exists in biology has come to exist because of these mechanisms.


This is word salad and a circular argument. 



See_Listen_Love said:


> So if there is a certain prevailing gene expression leading to physical or mental attributes of an organism that has to be there because of its evolutionary benefits.


Evolutionary benefits of a copulatory organ are to the extent of accomplishing fertilization. So, I don't get the advantage you are assuming? Evolution, starts with gene mutations that may provide alternative phenotypic expressions. If the alternating expression lend reproductive or metabolic advantages, this normally leads to a trait that may provide a fitter survival. Normally that trait over generations falls closer to the mean. Survival of a species to the sacrifice of individual members. 



See_Listen_Love said:


> I also know that proponents of this theory meet cultural criticism on extremes of the theory when taboos are touched by the theory, but those critics are not scientific.



Please provide scientific citations. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

This is not logic and reason what you do. I am not the one to prove the science behind evolutionary biology. I showed you what I understand from it, that is what you asked. What you call word salad (an insult by the way, its derogatory) is a logical construct to me.

1) Evolutionary Mechanisms exist in scientific realms other than Biology and are valid scientific constructions.
2) Evolutionary Mechanisms are believed to be also valid in the field of Biology
3) Hence everything existing in Biology is produced by Evolutionary Mechanisms


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

I am quit fed up with the derogatory remarks of a self declared scientist by the way. The scientists I do highly regard do not need that at all.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> This is not logic and reason what you do. I am not the one to prove the science behind evolutionary biology. I showed you what I understand from it, that is what you asked. What you call word salad (an insult by the way, its derogatory) is a logical construct to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 1) *Evolutionary Mechanisms exist in scientific realms other than Biology *and are valid scientific constructions.




I am a biologist and simply have no idea what you are saying here as it relates to this topic. 

The #1 statement contradicts your other two statements that I snipped out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I am quit fed up with the derogatory remarks of a self declared scientist by the way. The scientists I do highly regard do not need that at all.




My "word salad" comment was not meant to be derogatory, it was simply, I did not understand the comment based on the thread topic. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> I am a biologist and simply have no idea what you are saying here as it relates to this topic.
> 
> The #1 statement contradicts your other two statements that I snipped out.
> 
> ...


I cannot comprehend you cannot follow it. 

It are three logical steps. Leading to the principle of evolutionary biology. I cannot make it more clear. Logic in the formal sense is something different than clear speech as 'normal' people use, maybe that is the problem.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I cannot comprehend you cannot follow it.
> 
> It are three logical steps. Leading to the principle of evolutionary biology. I cannot make it more clear. Logic in the formal sense is something different than clear speech as 'normal' people use, maybe that is the problem.




If not for the capacity of gene mutations and ever shifting earthly spheres over geological times there would be no music and we would remain as anaerobic bacteria. 

I guess I still don't understand your take on evolution as it relates to the structure an accommodating function of the vagina. It is after all merely the copulatory organ not the reproductive organ. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> I guess I still don't understand your take on evolution as it relates to the structure an accommodating function of the vagina. It is after all merely the copulatory organ not the reproductive organ.


VladDracul asked you to adress the psychology of why most men would like big penises and some women even ultra big penises, the one in 200. That's where the subject originated.

Then you answered that you assume that is not so much biology. A small one would be good enough for the function. 'Why need a Ferrari'.

Then I reacted on that with mentioning the research done on the subject, showing the psychology is a matter of evolution. My own take was that the idea of evolutionary biology shows that to be correct, hence your opinion of smaller is good enough being not correct.

That is how it came by.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> VladDracul asked you to adress the psychology of why most men would like big penises and some women even ultra big penises, the one in 200. That's where the subject originated.
> 
> Then you answered that you assume that is not so much biology. A small one would be good enough for the function. 'Why need a Ferrari'.
> 
> ...




Asking me about the psychology of what a person favors has little to do with adaptive biological functions which is the basis of evolutionary biology. Humans are unique in that we have culture, due to our cerebral cortex and thus could explain the desire for a larger penis. But, is there an evolutionary advantage of having a larger penis? I don't know, but if this gave one a reproductive advantage, this would have made the mean size larger. On the other hand cultural evolution lends to these confusing assumptions and the changing landscapes based on whims of the cognitive brain. So, it is not uncommon to see divergence in cultural and evolutionary biology. 

I would say a smaller than mean penis could lend a disadvantage, only because coitus can be more complicated. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> I would say a smaller than mean penis could lend a disadvantage, only because coitus can be more complicated.


I can assure you from personal experience that having a smaller than mean penis is a significant disadvantage, and it has nothing to do with coitus being too complicated to consummate. And FYI, I am male.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> Asking me about the psychology of what a person favors has little to do with adaptive biological functions which is the basis of evolutionary biology. Humans are unique in that we have culture, due to our cerebral cortex and thus could explain the desire for a larger penis. But, is there an evolutionary advantage of having a larger penis? I don't know, but if this gave one a reproductive advantage, this would have made the mean size larger. On the other hand cultural evolution lends to these confusing assumptions and the changing landscapes based on whims of the cognitive brain. So, it is not uncommon to see divergence in cultural and evolutionary biology.
> 
> I would say a smaller than mean penis could lend a disadvantage, only because coitus can be more complicated.
> 
> ...


I'm not taking sides here, but I am curious about the differences in the conclusions.

Wouldn't the ability of the cerebral cortex to desire a larger penis, by your and others conclusions and scientific truths, somehow be an advantage of evolutionary biology? 

If not, what is the purpose that evolution decided to give us a choice? 

I'm thinking there is an advantage when other males might decide to take over a group of females. If those prehistoric females find out those new males who stole them from their original tribe are not "equipped" as well, they might seek ways to get back to the original, thereby propagating a better quality of children.

The issue I see is, again, why is the mean smaller? 

This is a conflict, but may also provide for a more diverse and larger population. It may also provide for the propagation of more intelligent humans, whether "equipped" well or not. 

I hope that makes some sense...cause I have a headache now. I want it to be worth the effort. :laugh:


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I'm not taking sides here, but I am curious about the differences in the conclusions.
> 
> Wouldn't the ability of the cerebral cortex to desire a larger penis, by your and others conclusions and scientific truths, somehow be an advantage of evolutionary biology?


I have no idea. As I stated, humans are unique in that we have developed a culture due to our cognitive brain. Is there an evolutionary advantage to consuming as many calories as possible? Our hunter/gatherer brain would say yes. Our modern brain would see a problem with that given our changing cultural landscape. 

What would be the advantage in reproduction of a larger copulation organ? 



2ntnuf said:


> If not, what is the purpose that evolution decided to give us a choice?


I don't understand, since evolution is not a purposeful set of events. 



2ntnuf said:


> I'm thinking there is an advantage when other males might decide to take over a group of females. If those prehistoric females find out those new males who stole them from their original tribe are not "equipped" as well, they might seek ways to get back to the original, thereby propagating a better quality of children.


So, let's not forget, if we are talking about some of our primate relatives. These apes, when they took over a tribe, killed any infants which put the females quickly into heat. Often the single alpha male (not necessarily the one with the largest genitalia) would be the only one to mate with the females as well as sodomize younger male apes. 



2ntnuf said:


> The issue I see is, again, why is the mean smaller?


The mean is not smaller. The mean is exactly what the mean implies. And if genetics is a determining factor, this says a lot for selection of mates. 



2ntnuf said:


> This is a conflict, but may also provide for a more diverse and larger population. It may also provide for the propagation of more intelligent humans, whether "equipped" well or not.
> 
> I hope that makes some sense...cause I have a headache now. I want it to be worth the effort. :laugh:



No, this part makes little sense, given we have a pretty diverse population, although we are one of the youngest species. 



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

"...No, this part makes little sense,... "


Well, it made perfect sense to me, until you went back to apes when I was thinking of early humans like Neanderthals. 

I'll just go get an aspirin. 

:laugh:


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Hey, I thought this thread was about vajayjas not Willies!!!


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

larry.gray said:


> Hey, I thought this thread was about vajayjas not Willies!!!


Darn that patriarchy!


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> "...No, this part makes little sense,... "
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If we had time machine we could answer many Q. We know that Neanderthals were big brained bipedal hominids that likely had an interesting culture. Some burial sites have been unearthed to show a few older females more revered than younger males.

But, because the copulatory organs are soft tissue little can be made from this species about their sexual activities. However, all but purely Africans carry 1%-5% of Neanderthal genes. This answers some selection Q 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Hey, I thought this thread was about vajayjas not Willies!!!




It is supposed to be. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> It is supposed to be.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry. I had to ask, since penis size is important to vaginas.

Though, it's likely more important to some women's brains, according to evolution and biology.

It was a question I've had since I've been reading these study conclusions and posts on TAM.

Though, it doesn't matter, since there is nothing a man can do about his size. Compatibility, then, is determined by the size of the vagina and the penis in the sexual act. 

So, it's a matter of choosing what you both feel is best and produces the most pleasure, when considering compatibility. Also, the vagina can get looser over time and with certain life experiences. 

Thanks for humoring me.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Sorry. I had to ask, since penis size is important to vaginas.
> 
> Though, it's likely more important to some women's brains, according to evolution and biology.
> 
> ...



It is true that with age elastic fibers breakdown, exacerbated by activities such as smoking or other toxin exposures. The bigger issue with older women is the decrease in natural vaginal lubrication and lend to sexual intercourse discomfort regardless of penile size. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> It is true that with age elastic fibers breakdown, exacerbated by activities such as smoking or other toxin exposures. The bigger issue with older women is the decrease in natural vaginal lubrication and lend to sexual intercourse discomfort regardless of penile size.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's also true, according to the posted link, that things like child birth can break down those elastic fibers. 

I believe I read that the vagina shrinks after menopause. Lubrication may also be a problem due to menopause. These things can be alleviated by supplementing some hormones lost or reduced with menopause.

I think what I read also stated the way to have the best chance that this will not be severe, and may not happen at all, the tightening and maybe the lack of lubrication as well, is to have sex often. 

I didn't know you smoked?


----------



## Buffon06 (Aug 14, 2016)

Recently read a scholarly article where Central African tribal females were statistically more likely to cheat on her husband if he had a larger than average penis. Apparently the males are not big on foreplay and large penises cause a lot of pain. Hence smaller penises cause less pain when "dry ****ing" and are seen as more desirable by these tribal women.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> It's also true, according to the posted link, that things like child birth can break down those elastic fibers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The amount of damage due to childbirth is not necessarily a given. The age of the mother, factors such as gestational diabetes and other health factors would have a greater impact. But, healthy young mother who has no pregnancy complications will have very little if any muscle or elastic tissue damage. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> The amount of damage due to childbirth is not necessarily a given. The age of the mother, factors such as gestational diabetes and other health factors would have a greater impact. But, healthy young mother who has no pregnancy complications will have very little if any muscle or elastic tissue damage.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I agree that there is some damage to much damage, depending on circumstances. 

I believe the article made mention of a relationship to age, as well.

Again, I didn't know you smoked? :laugh:

Goodnight, Ikaika.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Again, I didn't know you smoked? :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> Goodnight, Ikaika.



This was true when I was younger, but never tobacco 



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> This was true when I was younger, but never tobacco
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, man. I was in two different vagina threads and got confused about what I posted where.

Read this post and you can comment on it. Also, check the bottom of the post. It has the reference to smoking. 

No harm meant.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/16392209-post191.html

Have a good night.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Cause and effect are very troublesome issues in many scientific papers. One must always keep in mind that the conclusions can be wrong, while the statistical connections can be right.

Referring to dry/lubriated vagina when getting older/post menopause and female preferences for yes or not larger male organs.


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Cause and effect are very troublesome issues in many scientific papers. One must always keep in mind that the conclusions can be wrong, while the statistical connections can be right.
> 
> 
> 
> Referring to dry/lubriated vagina when getting older/post menopause and female preferences for yes or not larger male organs.




How many scientific papers have you authored on the topic? Somehow, people think internet chatter is more reliable than studies that require a much greater rigor and scrutiny. 

Any way, I'm not sure making a generalization that a post menopausal female will prefer s larger penis is an accurate assumption. I would say that she will no doubt have discomfort regardless of size if she either cannot produce enough endogenous lubricant or without the use of an exogenous lubricant. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> How many scientific papers have you authored on the topic? Somehow, people think internet chatter is more reliable than studies that require a much greater rigor and scrutiny.
> 
> Any way, I'm not sure making a generalization that a post menopausal female will prefer s larger penis is an accurate assumption. I would say that she will no doubt have discomfort regardless of size if she either cannot produce enough endogenous lubricant or without the use of an exogenous lubricant.
> 
> ...


Well....see... this is why I am so astounded about your reasoning.

1) I do not claim any scientific qualification on the subject, so why would you say that? What I do is most of the time refer to published scientific research.

2) This thread is internet chatter. 

3) See 1) for the preferring of internet chatter or science.

4) I state absolute nothing about the female preference you mention

5) Au contraire, I am warning for the often wrong causal connections made in scientific research. So not only I do not prefer internet chatter above science, I am also very aware of the erroneous use of statistics in especially medical science, and warn that cause and effect maybe not as suggested by a study.

I am flabbergasted. :slap:


----------



## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Well....see... this is why I am so astounded about your reasoning.
> 
> 1) I do not claim any scientific qualification on the subject, so why would you say that? What I do is most of the time refer to published scientific research.
> 
> ...




Okay, you are certainly welcome to your opinion. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------

