# Would you let your spouse go to a wedding with a friend of the opposite sex?



## Hristo2015 (Aug 31, 2015)

Hi there - so to all the married men & women - would you be ok with your spouse going to a wedding with a friend who is the opposite sex (but gay)? My gay friend, who I have been friends with for 20 years and gone to several weddings with - as well as vacations - before I was married, asked me to go as his date to a wedding because his husband is out of town (both me and my friend are married). My husband said this was not appropriate and that I should not be going to a wedding with a member of the opposite sex - even if they are gay and just a friend. He said that people may be gay but then could sometimes switch sides, or be bisexual, etc. Keep in mind, my husband also knows my friend (for 11 years now). What do you think?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Switch mitch. You should be dating your husband. Why can't he find an unmarried date?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

He's not wrong to feel this way, even if it seems mildly irrational. Even if nothing happens, just being seen with another man could create gossip amongst those who don't know the background. Doubly so if an overnight trip is involved.

If it were me, I'd be fine with you going in these circumstances.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Doesn't matter really what we say. Your husband feels it's inappropriate so for the relationship it's going to have to be.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

<sarcasm> My wife works nights. So this week a new movie is coming out that I want to see. Would it be OK if I ask the neighbors wife to go with me? <sarcasm>

This is so simple. Have boundaries. Be committed to your spouse. Don't be seen in a compromising situation. If my son and I decide to go to a ball game, no problem. If my female client and I decide to have lunch alone, big problem. Even if she is a lesbian. Only ok if her partner / spouse comes too. I learned this code of behavior from my father as a teenager. But it is just to old fashioned and restrictive for today's new adults.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

That's something that's negotiable. But if you husband is not comfortable with it, than you should refuse. Is it worth the marital tension?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I agree with Nail, even in business situations men and women are not paired up exclusively for dinners and meetings when traveling outside of the workplace unless it is done as a team function (as in more than just two people). 

As for your situation with the wedding and your friend, ask if he can invite BOTH you and your husband to go? If he can't then this creates an awkward situation where your husband feels left out and rejected, and it can cause him to act out and accuse you (your gay friend) of being bisexual and trying to get you apart from him as to take advantage of the situation. 

Can't help but to laugh at that, and also note it is awkward to not invite you own husband to go with you as a group. Even if the wedding party only allows RSVP's with just one significant other, I am sure they will make an exception for the three of you to go as a group. Once that happens and everyone can go, your husband will not want to go to this wedding since he was not wanted in the first place and he will back out and then likely be OK with just you going with your friend. 

A general rule of thumb for weddings is that for all the invitations sent out that not everyone will go, so odds are they are OK with a few extra adding themselves to the RSVP list. Perhaps your husband DOES want to go and just feel left out. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

I'm a married woman and my best friend is a gay man. We do a lot of things together. My husband knows him and has no problem with me doing activities alone with him. He doesn't feel threatened, and I would have a huge problem if he told me that he didn't want me hanging out with him. I have never given him a reason to not trust me, so he damn well needs to trust me. That is how we roll, and I can't imagine being married to someone who felt that they were allowed to pick my friends for me or limit my activities.

Sounds like your husband doesn't understand the "gay thing". You don't just switch sides.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I would say it depends. In your situation the answer is definitely no because your husband isn't at all comfortable with it.

Mrs. Conan and I maybe have two friends that this might be ok with if the situation was good.
They are both very good friends of us as a couple and all of us are very close.

Orientation really isn't the issue here.

Your friend should be against going with you because your H isn't ok with it.

How close is your friend to your husband?

I would think not very.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I agree with Nail, even in business situations men and women are not paired up exclusively for dinners and meetings when traveling outside of the workplace unless it is done as a team function (as in more than just two people).
> 
> Regards,
> Badsanta


Not sure where you work, but in 2015, companies are thinking about getting the work done, not about if you have a jealous spouse. People get paired up with opposite sex partners all the time for dinners, projects and meetings, and no one is making sure that there are more than two people.

Really people, if you can't trust your spouse to work with others of the opposite sex, you shouldn't be married to them.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

If it bothered my hb I wouldn't go, which is the same courtesy I'd expect him to give me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Workathome said:


> I'm a married woman and my best friend is a gay man. We do a lot of things together. My husband knows him and has no problem with me doing activities alone with him. He doesn't feel threatened, and I would have a huge problem if he told me that he didn't want me hanging out with him. I have never given him a reason to not trust me, so he damn well needs to trust me. That is how we roll, and I can't imagine being married to someone who felt that they were allowed to pick my friends for me or limit my activities.
> 
> Sounds like your husband doesn't understand the "gay thing". You don't just switch sides.


It actually isn't a "gay" thing. I can probably guarantee I know more about what goes on in gay culture than you.

I was immersed in it at the time I met my wife. She actually thought I was gay when we first met.

Many gay men also have sex with women. It happens all the time and far more often than admitted to.

Regardless. This isn't a gay issue. It is about marital boundaries.

You aren't crossing yours so your husband is ok. This couple has different boundaries.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hristo2015 (Aug 31, 2015)

Also, I am definitely not going to the wedding (I already told my friend I couldn't go - I didn't actually want to go!) but my husband and I did get into a fight about it. I know my friend isn't going to "switch teams" and I don't even think of him as the opposite sex but at he end of the day if my husband isn't comfortable then I can understand that. I did argue about it with him on the principle but that only made it worse!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Workathome said:


> Not sure where you work, but in 2015, companies are thinking about getting the work done, not about if you have a jealous spouse. People get paired up with opposite sex partners all the time for dinners, projects and meetings, and no one is making sure that there are more than two people.
> 
> Really people, if you can't trust your spouse to work with others of the opposite sex, you shouldn't be married to them.


Actually, they shouldn't be married to you. My wife and I are extremely successful by any observation and have opposite sex boundaries.

I refuse assignments that include any alone time with women.

You have your boundaries and others have theirs.

It is always amusing to here someone quote the year, yes we are all too damn stupid to know what year it is, and then proceed to tell us how screwed up we are and shouldn't be married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Actually, they shouldn't be married to you. My wife and I are extremely successful by any observation and have opposite sex boundaries.
> 
> I refuse assignments that include any alone time with women.
> 
> ...


Eh, I can't refuse assignments with men since my dept is mostly men. It's no big deal, all work is done in public in the office and everyone goes home at the end of the day
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Eh, I can't refuse assignments with men since my dept is mostly men. It's no big deal, all work is done in public in the office and everyone goes home at the end of the day
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I work with many female associates. I refuse assignments with women that require one on one time. Your situation sounds not that different from mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Let me clarify that point @Workathome. My spouse does not demand this code of behavior, nor do I demand it of her. It is just part of who I am. My wife was completely stunned when we got engaged and her male friends stopped calling her. Nothing I did, just proof that she picks the right kind of guys.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Hristo2015 said:


> Hi there - so to all the married men & women - would you be ok with your spouse going to a wedding with a friend who is the opposite sex (but gay)? My gay friend, who I have been friends with for 20 years and gone to several weddings with - as well as vacations - before I was married, asked me to go as his date to a wedding because his husband is out of town (both me and my friend are married). My husband said this was not appropriate and that I should not be going to a wedding with a member of the opposite sex - even if they are gay and just a friend. He said that people may be gay but then could sometimes switch sides, or be bisexual, etc. Keep in mind, my husband also knows my friend (for 11 years now). What do you think?


I wouldn't want my wife attending any event with any opposite sex "friend", gay or not. Your husband is right, it's not appropriate under any circumstances. I think you should respect his wishes. 

Now having said that, the reasons he gave you are pretty flimsy; switching sides? Really? Like how often does that happen? I'd have more respect for him if he said, "sorry, I'm just not comfortable with this" and he let it go at that.

So, what are you going to do?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Put me in the <apparently minority> camp that your husband can just hurry up and evolve a little.

Any sentence that starts with "would you let your spouse..." is already a non-starter in my world. Your friend is gay. Your husband knows this. It's his problem to reconcile and his to fix. No one is going to switch sides at a wedding, and even if the friend was straight, any spouse who thinks he's affair-proofing his marriage by not allowing you to ever be alone with someone of the opposite sex has already half-lost the battle. 

Go to the wedding and tell your husband you'll be home to bang his brains out when it's over.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Put me in the <apparently minority> camp that your husband can just hurry up and evolve a little.
> 
> Any sentence that starts with "would you let your spouse..." is already a non-starter in my world. Your friend is gay. Your husband knows this. It's his problem to reconcile and his to fix. No one is going to switch sides at a wedding, and even if the friend was straight, any spouse who thinks he's affair-proofing his marriage by not allowing you to ever be alone with someone of the opposite sex has already half-lost the battle.
> 
> Go to the wedding and tell your husband you'll be home to bang his brains out when it's over.


Cool to know your marriage has no boundaries?

I haven't even observed open marriages without boundaries.

Every relationship has them to be successful.

So your good with your wife going on dates with other men? That is cool but not for many and it certainly doesn't make you superior or more advanced than any of us that have osb. Opposite sex boundaries.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Cool to know your marriage has no boundaries?


Yeah, Conan, that's exactly what I said. No boundaries.



> Every relationship has them to be successful.
> 
> So your good with your wife going on dates with other men? That is cool but not for many and it certainly doesn't make you superior or more advanced than any of us that have osb. Opposite sex boundaries.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, every relationship has boundaries. Boundaries have to make sense else they're viewed with disdain by one of the partners. 

You don't have to have mine, and I don't have to have yours. Mine don't include telling my wife she can't go to a wedding with a gay friend of over a decade who couldn't possibly pose a threat to anyone. Maybe yours do. The question was asked, and answered, and apparently you don't like my answer. Meh. Personally, I would find the notion of my spouse disallowing me to go to a simple wedding that I had no interest in attending with just about anyone to be controlling and distrustful. 

As always, my opinion. We're not married, and we don't have to agree.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Yeah, Conan, that's exactly what I said. No boundaries.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hahaha! Just poking since you are.

You implied that anyone that had this particular boundary wasn't as advanced or inferior compared to you and it was simply a useless boundary for any relationship, mine included.

I can assure you it is a mutually agreed on and good boundary in my marriage and it will probably work for OP and her husband but they need to talk about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I work with many female associates. I refuse assignments with women that require one on one time. Your situation sounds not that different from mine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is it because of marital boundaries, or rather preventing potential sexual harrasment accusations?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Hahaha! Just poking since you are.
> 
> You implied that anyone that had this particular boundary wasn't as advanced or inferior compared to you and it was simply a useless boundary for any relationship, mine included.
> 
> ...


So let's talk about why not going to a wedding with a known gay long time friend is a good boundary. To be good, it must accomplish something that might be violated if broken.

What is that thing? Is it realistic? Is it just for appearances? Is it to assert dominance? I'm assuming it can't be considered sexual for obvious reasons.

I've known a few too many women in my life with husbands who would have said they had perfectly good boundaries, and all they were doing was creating sad wives who lived miserable lives in subservience at home because the husband wouldn't let them out of the house unless they were under his nose. I ain't saying that's your situation, but I've seen it nonetheless.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Workathome said:


> I can't imagine being married to someone who felt that they were allowed to pick my friends for me or limit my activities.


 I can't imagine being married to someone who did not understand that the marriage vows were an agreement by both parties to respect the feelings of the other, and to limit their activities with members of the opposite sex if the other felt uncomfortable with it.



Workathome said:


> Sounds like your husband doesn't understand the "gay thing". You don't just switch sides.


 Sounds like you don't understand the "gay thing". Many men that identify themselves as gay, will from time to time have heterosexual sex with women.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

No of course not.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> Is it because of marital boundaries, or rather preventing potential sexual harrasment accusations?


Absolutely a marital boundary. Other men do take assignments that require quite a lot of alone time with women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> So let's talk about why not going to a wedding with a known gay long time friend is a good boundary. To be good, it must accomplish something that might be violated if broken.
> 
> What is that thing? Is it realistic? Is it just for appearances? Is it to assert dominance? I'm assuming it can't be considered sexual for obvious reasons.
> 
> I've known a few too many women in my life with husbands who would have said they had perfectly good boundaries, and all they were doing was creating sad wives who lived miserable lives in subservience at home because the husband wouldn't let them out of the house unless they were under his nose. I ain't saying that's your situation, but I've seen it nonetheless.


Not our situation at all. What is good for the goose is good for the gander with us.

There actually is a good friend I have had since just after high school that is gay that could accompany, I'm the only date for her, Mrs. Conan to an event. We have two straight friends it would be ok with too but they are OUR friends. 

I wouldn't go alone with one of my female friends and she wouldn't with one of hers.

The argument that gay people don't have sex with the opposite sex is incredibly ridiculous! Gay men are some of the most HD, horny mo-fo's I have ever known.

I have personally witnessed one gay man have sex with three men and two women in one night and he tried to have sex with my friend too but he turned him down.

My friend would occasionally sleep with women as well. They do it but are usually more picky about female partners, sometimes they have sex with their female friends. They don't consider it a big deal. Very casual.

All that aside. Any friend of my wife has to be a friend to our marriage with a lot of trust built up to go with her alone on excursions. There is usually no reason we don't go to weddings together anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Not our situation at all. What is good for the goose is good for the gander with us.


So then it boils down to, and forgive me if this sounds offensive but I don't know a better way to phrase it, you don't trust your wife not to go to a wedding without having sex with a randy gay man. Or she doesn't trust you with a woman and this is simple reciprocity.

Is that correct?


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

Absolutely not. We attend weddings as a couple or we don't go. 

My husband wouldn't ask me if he could bring a female friend to a date because he knows that I would not be accepting of that. Same goes for me.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

WandaJ said:


> Is it because of marital boundaries, or rather preventing potential sexual harassment accusations?


Yes, both, and appearances.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> So then it boils down to, and forgive me if this sounds offensive but I don't know a better way to phrase it, you don't trust your wife not to go to a wedding without having sex with a randy gay man. Or she doesn't trust you with a woman and this is simple reciprocity.
> 
> Is that correct?


Not offended and, to be honest, it is more on her side than mine.

I come from an uber confident sexual background and I really trust her and myself. She isn't as confident and less comfortable with certain opposite sex situations that require being alone with them.

Her other qualities are really outstanding and the whole woman is very worth the boundaries she wants for both of us to be comfortable.

Our closeness and growth are always a priority.

Going out alone with osf is not a priority.

It really isn't a negative impact on our lives at all to have this boundary.

We have learned to cooperate in almost any situation better than the majority of couples. We plan activities and dates for alone time with each other.

It would actually be kind of foreign to have folks in our lives that were requesting time with my wife alone or vice versa.

I don't have problems with other (healthy) couples that have alone time with osf. If they are healthy then I guarantee they have a rule or two in place for those times.

Other couples, like me and the Mrs., have osf boundaries that almost always excludes alone time.

We love each other too much to really want to be going out with osf that much anyway.

Our personalities aren't even that geared towards osf anyway. That might be one major difference. I really didn't have many females hanging around me when I was single where sex wasn't involved.

Mrs. Conan is more likely to get along with some men on a friend level but we are equal in our boundaries. I don't have some that she doesn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Space Mountain (Jul 19, 2015)

On what planet is it a good idea for your spouse to go on dates?
It does not matter whether the date is gay or straight. An EA can exist between gays and straights. Anytime a spouse puts a third party ahead of their spouse it is an affair. First it starts with one date (harmless enough) then two and eventually it becomes a regular routine or worse the just friends EA that leads to a PA. It is just opening up the door to trouble. So do your marriage and family a favor have proper boundaries and mutual respect.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Hristo2015 said:


> Also, I am definitely not going to the wedding (I already told my friend I couldn't go - I didn't actually want to go!) but my husband and I did get into a fight about it. I know my friend isn't going to "switch teams" and I don't even think of him as the opposite sex but at he end of the day if my husband isn't comfortable then I can understand that. *I did argue about it with him on the principle but that only made it worse!*


 @Hristo2015 I just read your other thread. Let me see if I got this right. Your husband caught you in an emotional affair with a co-worker a year ago. And now you are complaining and giving him a hard time about him saying no, you can't go to a wedding with your male friend, who you say is gay? Really? Feeling a little entitled and un-remorseful now aren't we?


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

no. Not going to happen, don't care how a good friend that person is. My friends would know better to ask.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Ok, Hristo. Do you still work with your affair partner?

I really can't believe you don't get this!

Why the hell are you still pushing boundaries of trust after you cheated, ea, and still work with the asshat that tried to get in your pants?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

I believe that I have trained my children in the proper handling of firearms and I trust them to be careful however, I would never condone nor allow the handling of a loaded firearm just for the fun of it. A very accurate human colloquialism applies; excrement happens.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm going in another direction. I think it's weird that your friend is inviting someone else to the wedding that is not his spouse. I think it's really bad form.

The wedding invitation was probably to your friend and his spouse, not to your friend and whomever he wants to bring. If I was invited to a wedding and my husband couldn't go, I wouldn't try to find some random person to go with me, I would just go by myself.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

TRy said:


> I can't imagine being married to someone who did not understand that the marriage vows were an agreement by both parties to respect the feelings of the other, and to limit their activities with members of the opposite sex if the other felt uncomfortable with it.
> 
> Sounds like you don't understand the "gay thing". Many men that identify themselves as gay, will from time to time have heterosexual sex with women.


She's been friends with him for 20 years and married to her husband for 11. They've attended wedding and even travelled together in the past. If the gay guy wanted in her pants, he would have gone there by now.

Again, she been friends with him for a long time. Why is he just voicing these feelings now?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Workathome said:


> She's been friends with him for 20 years and married to her husband for 11. They've attended wedding and even travelled together in the past. If the gay guy wanted in her pants, he would have gone there by now.
> 
> Again, she been friends with him for a long time. Why is he just voicing these feelings now?


Very probably because she cheated with a co-worker and is still working with her affair partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bbdad (Feb 11, 2013)

Workathome said:


> I'm a married woman and my best friend is a gay man. We do a lot of things together. My husband knows him and has no problem with me doing activities alone with him. He doesn't feel threatened, and I would have a huge problem if he told me that he didn't want me hanging out with him. I have never given him a reason to not trust me, so he damn well needs to trust me. That is how we roll, and I can't imagine being married to someone who felt that they were allowed to pick my friends for me or limit my activities.
> 
> Sounds like your husband doesn't understand the "gay thing". You don't just switch sides.


Wow. To answer the original question, I would not have an issue with it. Maybe I am naive, but I don't feel threatened by a gay man, especially a married gay man at all.

However, if my wife acted like that statement above, then I would have a huge problem with the attitude of her wanting to go.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

bbdad said:


> Wow. To answer the original question, I would not have an issue with it. Maybe I am naive, but I don't feel threatened by a gay man, especially a married gay man at all.
> 
> However, if my wife acted like that statement above, then I would have a huge problem with the attitude of her wanting to go.


Do you feel the need to control what your wife does or who her friends are. We married in our 30s. We trust each other implicitly. I work with men, he works with women. That's life in our careers. I would not be asking for permission to do something. He's going fishing with a guy friend this weekend. Should I worry that they might turn gay this weekend? According to my gay friends, all men want sex with other men.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

My initial reaction is, "what could possibly be more fun than having a gay male date for a wedding!?! I'm in!"

But, after thinking and reading, my answer is "What everyone else says about respecting your partner's boundaries. Period."


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Workathome said:


> According to my gay friends, all men want sex with other men.


 I am sorry but study after study show that not to be even close to the truth.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Cletus said:


> So then it boils down to, and forgive me if this sounds offensive but I don't know a better way to phrase it, you don't trust your wife not to go to a wedding without having sex with a randy gay man. Or she doesn't trust you with a woman and this is simple reciprocity.


 The old trust card. This is exactly the card played by the OP's wife last year when she was in her emotional affair ("EA").

This is where you and I differ. Your comment above indicates that cheating requires there to be sex, whereas I believe that an EA is cheating even if there is no sex. Which is why my wife and I think that it is OK to have marital boundaries that exclude dating opposite sex friends.


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## DoneWithHurting (Feb 4, 2015)

My wife had a 12 year EA with her gay work husband under my nose. He became a good family friend. They spent lots of time alone working.
He also spent time influencing her.
He also spent time laughing with her about me.
It took 12 years, slowly getting worse and worse each year, to get rid of him.
If it wasn't for our business and kids... and the slow boil (like that poor frog) I would have dumped her.
But he left. She went NC. All is well again.
Except that nagging feeling that some gay men sleep with women sometimes and little things she said to me over the years should have been red flags to me but I let go BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE TAM!

That crap ain't gonna happen again. No sirrie. No more 3rd parties... NONE. Gay or not. No OSF.

So... I agree with OPs husband 100%.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

OP, you should dump you gay friend immediately for even ASKING for such a situation. Asking you to be his date at a wedding? Trust me he's not a true friend as he doesn't respect your husband. I'm serious. Ditch the guy as a "friend".

The minute your H said no, that should have been the end of it. I can bet your husband is also concerned he had to "convince" you that it was inappropriate. 

MEN: Do not ever let a women bully you into OSF's. Do otherwise to your own peril. Have values and boundaries are healthy. You are not insecure and jealous to stick to core beliefs.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

jdawg2015 said:


> OP, you should dump you gay friend immediately for even ASKING for such a situation. Asking you to be his date at a wedding? Trust me he's not a true friend as he doesn't respect your husband. I'm serious. Ditch the guy as a "friend".
> 
> The minute your H said no, that should have been the end of it. I can bet your husband is also concerned he had to "convince" you that it was inappropriate.
> 
> MEN: Do not ever let a women bully you into OSF's. Do otherwise to your own peril. Have values and boundaries are healthy. You are not insecure and jealous to stick to core beliefs.


This makes me sad. We all need friends other than our spouse. Do you allow your wife to have close female friends?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Hristo2015 said:


> He said that people may be gay but then could sometimes switch sides, or be bisexual, etc. Keep in mind, my husband also knows my friend (for 11 years now). What do you think?


What do I think.... well, my close friend who is gay, is gay. He's into dudes. End of story. When my husband and I were going through our rough patch, my friend gave me some solid advice that had me facing myself and where I was at. He has a lot of respect for my husband and our marriage.

Your husband is uncomfortable with this, and that's what needs your focus more so than defending your position.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Workathome said:


> This makes me sad. We all need friends other than our spouse. Do you allow your wife to have close female friends?


notice how you switched gears and switched the question around?

I specifically answered the OP. Any man who asks a married women to be his date to a wedding. I'd like to wager that her gay friend also knows or senses her H doesn't really like him. 


As for lady friends, no issues. However is she has lady friends of poor moral character I would state as such. My ex fiancé had a friend of hers that was actively having an affair on her H and I told her I'd rather not associate with them.

Sorry but dating out while married is not my cup of tea. It's not a show of maturity or progressiveness to be fine with it either.


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## Hristo2015 (Aug 31, 2015)

Thanks all - everyone has some baggage in their lives (like me) and people need to work within the framework of what the boundaries are in their own marriage. I was asking to get people's opinions on this topic in general - my story is just an example - but everyone gave me some good perspectives on this. I think at the end of the day, if one spouse isn't comfortable (and isn't irrational with what they are uncomfortable with) then you default to the more conservative spouse. 

I certainly don't think my gay friend of more than 20 years is going to turn straight or was trying to cause a problem, he didn't want to go to a wedding alone and since I also know the couple getting married (who are also gay) he thought it would be fun. But I can also see my husband's perspective (especially in my situation). I do agree with another posted who said people needs friends outside of their marriages and limiting contact with the opposite sex won't affair proof a marriage. If only it were that simple.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Hristo,

A few thoughts....

Perhaps your friend is better looking or well dressed or in shape than your H.

I've noticed that gay men have this sense of entitlement to touch women, has your friend ever been physically affectionate with your in a non-sexual way?

If it's a gay wedding perhaps your H doesn't want you in that culture, I don't think I would be ok with my W going to a function with many lesbians in attendance for example.

Have you ever cheated on your H in the past or does he suspect that you did? If so your H may have seemed to recover, but may not have and this request could be a huge trigger.

Tamat


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Hristo2015 said:


> I do agree with another posted who said people needs friends outside of their marriages and limiting contact with the opposite sex won't affair proof a marriage.


You're right, it won't affair proof a marriage, but it will significantly reduce the number of opportunities one has to meet an affair partner / predator.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

TAMAT said:


> Have you ever cheated on your H in the past or does he suspect that you did? If so your H may have seemed to recover, but may not have and this request could be a huge trigger.
> 
> Tamat


She has a history of an EA. Read her first thread.


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## Hristo2015 (Aug 31, 2015)

The Middleman said:


> She has a history of an EA. Read her first thread.





TAMAT said:


> Hristo,
> 
> A few thoughts....
> 
> ...


Yes - about a year ago I did have an emotional affair - and this is exactly what triggered everything. But even if that hadn't of happened my husband still would have had a problem with me going to the wedding with my gay friend. 

I can understand - when you add the affair element why this is upsetting but I think if there are no trust issues or other baggage then going to a wedding with a gay friend would be fine. 

People may not agree with me but we're all in control of ourselves and we all make choices and sheltering your SO or trying to control what they do only creates resentment. Obviously my situation is different with the EA element for now. Hopefully over time, we can rebuild that trust.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Hristo2015 said:


> Yes - about a year ago I did have an emotional affair - and this is exactly what triggered everything. But even if that hadn't of happened my husband still would have had a problem with me going to the wedding with my gay friend.
> 
> I can understand - when you add the affair element why this is upsetting but I think if there are no trust issues or other baggage then going to a wedding with a gay friend would be fine.
> 
> People may not agree with me but we're all in control of ourselves and we all make choices and sheltering your SO or trying to control what they do only creates resentment. Obviously my situation is different with the EA element for now. Hopefully over time, we can rebuild that trust.


If you need so much male attention. you have an unresolved issue.

If you think he's controlling you but asking you abide by such a normal boundary and are suggesting you have a resentment, end the marriage now. Trust me, it won't end well.

The fact that you are sh|t testing your husband with such a request, especially in light of your affair is something I would caution your husband to start having a very frank discussion with you.

Perhaps have him join TAM as I think he needs some advice.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

Workathome said:


> Not sure where you work, but in 2015, companies are thinking about getting the work done, not about if you have a jealous spouse. People get paired up with opposite sex partners all the time for dinners, projects and meetings, and no one is making sure that there are more than two people.
> 
> Really people, if you can't trust your spouse to work with others of the opposite sex, you shouldn't be married to them.


My experience as well. Every company I have worked for wants work done and does not, ever, consider gender when figuring out plans. Either for meetings, travel or lunches. I have at times travelled alone with only a female. 

That said, if your spouse says they are uncomfortable with it, and it's not a business function, it's best to take their feelings into consideration but also recognize you probably have some issues to work out together. I would have no problem with what you're doing.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

TRy said:


> The old trust card. This is exactly the card played by the OP's wife last year when she was in her emotional affair ("EA").
> 
> This is where you and I differ. Your comment above indicates that cheating requires there to be sex, whereas I believe that an EA is cheating even if there is no sex. Which is why my wife and I think that it is OK to have marital boundaries that exclude dating opposite sex friends.


My husband and I have the same boundaries and it doesn't mean that we don't trust each other. 

It just means that we have set parameters that work for us. An EA is still an affair even though no sex occurs.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

jdawg2015 said:


> *If you need so much male attention. you have an unresolved issue.*
> 
> If you think he's controlling you but asking you abide by such a normal boundary and are suggesting you have a resentment, end the marriage now. Trust me, it won't end well.
> 
> ...


This. It is very disrespectful to ask for permission to date others after an emotional affair. 

That is very selfish and shows lack of consideration for such a serious betrayal. 

While I admit that I am flattered when a random guy compliments me, the only male attention I crave is my husband's.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> My experience as well. Every company I have worked for wants work done and does not, ever, consider gender when figuring out plans. Either for meetings, travel or lunches. I have at times travelled alone with only a female.
> 
> That said, if your spouse says they are uncomfortable with it, and it's not a business function, it's best to take their feelings into consideration but also recognize you probably have some issues to work out together. I would have no problem with what you're doing.


Take a step back and think about this. Were does a company EVER require male and female to go to dinners or private functions 1:1?

There are some fields such a police or paramedics where there is not way to avoid. But far, far, more common is that 1:1 private dinners and outings "to get work done" is a matter of fiction.

I travel for work, I'm currently living overseas, deal with vendors and sales people all the time. Never, ever, have I had to be 1:1 for dinner with a women. Ever.

It comes down to choice.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TRy said:


> This is where you and I differ. Your comment above indicates that cheating requires there to be sex, whereas I believe that an EA is cheating even if there is no sex. Which is why my wife and I think that it is OK to have marital boundaries that exclude dating opposite sex friends.


When did attending a wedding with a long time friend become a date?


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Hristo,

There is another element in that weddings are emotional events and the central theme of a wedding is sexual, traditionally and ideally the deflowering of the bride and groom during the honeymoon. If you add in the fact that everyone is well dressed and as good looking as possible your H may view this as as bad an environment for you as drinking at a bar with men. It's not uncommon for people attending weddings to end up in one night stands. 

Did you intend to stay overnight at this wedding?

If your EA was a year ago this was very ill advised, your H needs at least 2 years to recover, which means you've reset the clock to zero with this request.

Tamat


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Hristo2015 said:


> Yes - about a year ago I did have an emotional affair - and this is exactly what triggered everything. *But even if that hadn't of happened my husband still would have had a problem with me going to the wedding with my gay friend*.
> 
> I can understand - when you add the affair element why this is upsetting but I think if there are no trust issues or other baggage then going to a wedding with a gay friend would be fine.
> 
> People may not agree with me but we're all in control of ourselves and we all make choices and sheltering your SO or trying to control what they do only creates resentment. Obviously my situation is different with the EA element for now. Hopefully over time, we can rebuild that trust.


And in retrospect, I imagine your husband wishes he had defended his boundaries a bit more, as they are obviously warranted.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Hristo2015 said:


> Yes - about a year ago I did have an emotional affair - and this is exactly what triggered everything. But even if that hadn't of happened my husband still would have had a problem with me going to the wedding with my gay friend.
> 
> *Well, affair aside, those are his boundaries and you have a choice to either accept it and stay in the marriage or not accept it and leave. But you did have the affair and you still gave him sh1t when he asked you (or told you) not to go. That tells me (and him, if he's smart) that you just don't "get it" and at best, your boundaries are questionable. I don't know if you have children or not, but think twice before starting a family. *
> 
> ...


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## Hristo2015 (Aug 31, 2015)

TAMAT said:


> Hristo,
> 
> There is another element in that weddings are emotional events and the central theme of a wedding is sexual, traditionally and ideally the deflowering of the bride and groom during the honeymoon. If you add in the fact that everyone is well dressed and as good looking as possible your H may view this as as bad an environment for you as drinking at a bar with men. It's not uncommon for people attending weddings to end up in one night stands.
> 
> ...


Yes - definitely ill-advised at this point! I agree. I wasn't actually intending to attend the wedding - I knew it wouldn't fly and we already have plans that weekend. I told my H I was invited (he was right there when the text came in) and he immediately got upset that I would even raise this). I still think in general, going to a wedding with a married gay friend is fine. But not for me and not now. 

I'm not sure why people on here are saying "asking permission to date." If you read the thread - it's about going as a wedding guest.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Cletus said:


> When did attending a wedding with a long time friend become a date?


It isn't .... unless your spouse feels it is .... then it's a date, pure and simple.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Hristo2015 said:


> I'm not sure why people on here are saying "asking permission to date." If you read the thread - it's about going as a wedding guest.


Many people, myself included, feel that when you go out with someone of the opposite sex in a social setting to have fun with each other, it's a date. I do get where your coming from but in general, it's not a good idea, with or without the affair history.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> It isn't .... unless your spouse feels it is .... then it's a date, pure and simple.


This is where I part ways with some. I will not be held hostage to my spouses irrational beliefs. Just because she thinks something is so does not automatically make it so, and I am not necessarily duty bound to respect that opinion, though of course I may decide to do so for the sake of our marriage. But I am under no obligation. 

This position comes for long exposure to the mentally ill people in my family, I suppose, some of whom believe wholeheartedly in a wide array of silly notions. I would rather discuss with my spouse how this is NOT a date, how she is in no way threatened, and why if I decide to abide her wishes, it is completely out of deference to our relationship, not to some incorrect truth she believes. 

Of course, I afford her the same rights. Absolute veto power is a tool that should be used very sparingly in a marriage.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

A great deal of the trouble between yourself and your husband, is this difference of definition of a "Date". This is something you two will have to come to an agreement on. Our opinions may be a guideline, but what you two agree on is what the definition will be for you. If you continue to disagree with him on what a "date" is, he will continue to distrust you. What do you want most?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

I think the real question is why does going to a wedding require a "date" anyway? Why can't the friend go on his own?


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

jdawg2015 said:


> Take a step back and think about this. Were does a company EVER require male and female to go to dinners or private functions 1:1?
> 
> There are some fields such a police or paramedics where there is not way to avoid. But far, far, more common is that 1:1 private dinners and outings "to get work done" is a matter of fiction.
> 
> ...


Ever? Dinners... that's very rare. I have had to attend a function with only a female co-worker. A single female co-worker. How did it end up that way? Our skill sets and availability. It's that simple. Clients and managers etc. should not have to track down not only gender but sexual preferences to figure out who to send to things that require business attendance. Businesses should be able to have confidence that their employees do not treat business travel and events like 5 minute dating.

You're right that most of the time it's a lie or fiction when you hear it from a spouse you can't trust. But it's totally inaccurate to suggest that businesses are or would be wise to constantly have to worry about "are we going to cause sex?!" whenever they need to schedule business travel and events. Putting two people in the same hotel room would be crossing the line, but putting two people in the same hotel, at the same dinners, at the same black tie events, on the same flight in seats next to one another? It's a co-worker. 

I would be completely in the wrong to refuse to travel with someone because they were female or a gay male. Completely, 100% in the wrong. It's communicating that I'm entirely out of control with my sexuality or emotions.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Hristo2015 said:


> Yes - about a year ago I did have an emotional affair - and this is exactly what triggered everything. But even if that hadn't of happened my husband still would have had a problem with me going to the wedding with my gay friend.
> 
> I can understand - when you add the affair element why this is upsetting but I think if there are no trust issues or other baggage then going to a wedding with a gay friend would be fine.
> 
> People may not agree with me but we're all in control of ourselves and we all make choices and sheltering your SO or trying to control what they do only creates resentment. Obviously my situation is different with the EA element for now. Hopefully over time, we can rebuild that trust.



Why do we get half the story from the first post? I don't think you can begin to understand the "affair element" as you were not on the receiving end of the bad news. The trust is gone no matter the situation.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I'm sure most people would not want their husband or wife to attend a wedding with a gay person of the opposite sex. I doubt the concept of doing it appeals to most people. So I wonder about the state of a marriage where this is something a person even wants to do.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> Ever? Dinners... that's very rare. I have had to attend a function with only a female co-worker. A single female co-worker. How did it end up that way? Our skill sets and availability. It's that simple. Clients and managers etc. should not have to track down not only gender but sexual preferences to figure out who to send to things that require business attendance. Businesses should be able to have confidence that their employees do not treat business travel and events like 5 minute dating.
> 
> You're right that most of the time it's a lie or fiction when you hear it from a spouse you can't trust. But it's totally inaccurate to suggest that businesses are or would be wise to constantly have to worry about "are we going to cause sex?!" whenever they need to schedule business travel and events. Putting two people in the same hotel room would be crossing the line, but putting two people in the same hotel, at the same dinners, at the same black tie events, on the same flight in seats next to one another? It's a co-worker.
> 
> I would be completely in the wrong to refuse to travel with someone because they were female or a gay male. Completely, 100% in the wrong. It's communicating that I'm entirely out of control with my sexuality or emotions.


You read things and added things that I did not say. I said going 1:1 to private dinners, lunches, etc. Not "events".

Going 1:1 to a dinner with someone other than your spouse is a choice. Be exceeding rare to ever have to do it. That's what I'm saying.

Having seen and dealt with the OSF, the bravado that some give about it is almost sad how carefree people are about their marriages. Heeds the warnings. My .02


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Cletus said:


> This is where I part ways with some. I will not be held hostage to my spouses irrational beliefs. Just because she thinks something is so does not automatically make it so, and I am not necessarily duty bound to respect that opinion, though of course I may decide to do so for the sake of our marriage. But I am under no obligation.
> 
> This position comes for long exposure to the mentally ill people in my family, I suppose, some of whom believe wholeheartedly in a wide array of silly notions. I would rather discuss with my spouse how this is NOT a date, how she is in no way threatened, and why if I decide to abide her wishes, it is completely out of deference to our relationship, not to some incorrect truth she believes.
> 
> Of course, I afford her the same rights. Absolute veto power is a tool that should be used very sparingly in a marriage.


Perhaps you should realize that once married, a spouse should not have to feel like they are competing for the time, attention, and affection from third parties.

The husband feels threatened. Nothing abnormal at all as I believe the majority of men would not feel comfortable with their W going as a pair to a wedding (or a movie, or dinner, etc) with another guy.

Turn this around. The wife is initiating the request (ie, she asks). H says he doesn't like it. Then wife argues why it should be ok. Was it really a request then to begin with if he says no and then she fights to go? And if she just goes with an attitude of, "nobody tells ME what to do" then the marriage is in trouble and she's being selfish.

Marriage is about TWO people, not three.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

Workathome said:


> Not sure where you work, but in 2015, companies are thinking about getting the work done, not about if you have a jealous spouse. People get paired up with opposite sex partners all the time for dinners, projects and meetings, and no one is making sure that there are more than two people.
> 
> Really people, if you can't trust your spouse to work with others of the opposite sex, you shouldn't be married to them.


I spent 2 weeks in DC with my male boss. No one batted an eye.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jdawg2015 said:


> Perhaps you should realize that once married, a spouse should not have to feel like they are competing for the time, attention, and affection from third parties.


The topic on this thread is a single day at a wedding with a long-term friend.

Any spouse who feels that he is competing for time, attention, and affection from others with his spouse over this event is an overly possessive spouse, and I stand by that judgement, ignoring for the moment OP's past. 



> The husband feels threatened. Nothing abnormal at all as I believe the majority of men would not feel comfortable with their W going as a pair to a wedding (or a movie, or dinner, etc) with another guy.


In this case, the husband may feel threatened because of a history of events that weren't spelled out in the original question. I think it is abnormal to not feel comfortable with this situation, in isolation. Or perhaps not abnormal, if so many people feel that way. Perhaps irrational or unjustified?



> Turn this around. The wife is initiating the request (ie, she asks). H says he doesn't like it. Then wife argues why it should be ok. Was it really a request then to begin with if he says no and then she fights to go? And if she just goes with an attitude of, "nobody tells ME what to do" then the marriage is in trouble and she's being selfish.


If she were truly asking for permission, then I suppose she would have to allow for the answer to be "no" and suck it up. My wife would not ask permission - she would tell me her plans, assuming there was a good reason I did not want to go, and expect me to accept them unless I had a very good reason to object - understanding that I don't consider my unfounded fears to amount to a good reason. This husband may have a very good reason. Other couples in happy marriages with spouses they trust, I just fail to see it. 

The primary point being that a) I trust my spouse and b) I don't let my anxieties that have no objective basis in fact to be used as a leash on my spouse.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> Ever? Dinners... that's very rare. I have had to attend a function with only a female co-worker. A single female co-worker. How did it end up that way? Our skill sets and availability. It's that simple. Clients and managers etc. should not have to track down not only gender but sexual preferences to figure out who to send to things that require business attendance. Businesses should be able to have confidence that their employees do not treat business travel and events like 5 minute dating.
> 
> You're right that most of the time it's a lie or fiction when you hear it from a spouse you can't trust. But it's totally inaccurate to suggest that businesses are or would be wise to constantly have to worry about "are we going to cause sex?!" whenever they need to schedule business travel and events. Putting two people in the same hotel room would be crossing the line, but putting two people in the same hotel, at the same dinners, at the same black tie events, on the same flight in seats next to one another? It's a co-worker.
> 
> I would be completely in the wrong to refuse to travel with someone because they were female or a gay male. Completely, 100% in the wrong. It's communicating that I'm entirely out of control with my sexuality or emotions.


Hehehe. You do realize that massive amounts of fvckery occurs between people who are in your position.

Not claiming you are but if you have been doing it for any length of time you know what I am talking about.

I'm no less in control than you. I have had absolutely zero issues keeping my marital boundaries in the professional world either.

To each their own but to suggest superiority by your implied statement is off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Hehehe. You do realize that massive amounts of fvckery occurs between people who are in your position.
> 
> Not claiming you are but if you have been doing it for any length of time you know what I am talking about.
> 
> ...


BINGO!!!

I've seen so much stuff even otherwise tight people have done when they let their guard down.

The amount of bravado here is bad as people refuse to pause and think for a second that they would ever get caught on in something.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Cletus said:


> The topic on this thread is a single day at a wedding with a long-term friend.


My hunch, and I could be wrong, is that for a guy to ask a woman on a date to a wedding is in fairly regular contact with her so to H this is not a single day but a fostering of a relationship. I'd like to know just how often she's texting and calling this guy. 

I just can't imagine having a gf or wife who would look me in the eye and ask me to go to a wedding with another guy. That's like 1+1 = 3


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

We have lots of boundaries, but this scenario would not be one of them.

OTOH, my H would likely be a little edgy about it if I went to a wedding with a gay woman, because I'm bi. Not that he would disallow it, it would just kick up some ancient insecurities he has. If it was important to me, I would soothe his insecurities and he'd get over it. Then he might tease me about eating at the Y when I got home or something like that.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
I find your decision to abstain from attending the wedding to be wise. The enjoyment you would get from attending surely would not be worth the marital strife and your H's angst.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Hristo2015 said:


> I do agree with another posted who said people needs friends outside of their marriages and limiting contact with the opposite sex won't affair proof a marriage.


 Borrowing from watch manufacture water rating lingo, it may not "affair proof" it, but it would make it more "affair resistant".


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Hristo2015 said:


> Thanks all - everyone has some baggage in their lives (like me) and people need to work within the framework of what the boundaries are in their own marriage. I was asking to get people's opinions on this topic in general - my story is just an example - but everyone gave me some good perspectives on this. I think at the end of the day, if one spouse isn't comfortable (and isn't irrational with what they are uncomfortable with) then you default to the more conservative spouse.
> 
> I certainly don't think my gay friend of more than 20 years is going to turn straight or was trying to cause a problem, he didn't want to go to a wedding alone and since I also know the couple getting married (who are also gay) he thought it would be fun. But I can also see my husband's perspective (especially in my situation). I do agree with another posted who said people needs friends outside of their marriages and limiting contact with the opposite sex won't affair proof a marriage. If only it were that simple.


I have a gay best friend who has been my best friend for over 25 years. He and his partner have been together for over 23 years and they are like family to me. They've become like family to my family - my friend officiated at my sister's wedding.

I have traveled alone with him halfway around the world because he was invited to speak at a conference, expenses paid, and I thought it would be really cool to visit that city and this was a great chance to do so. We had a fantastic time (and I was so proud of him - he spoke to over 5000 people).

I would have laughed and laughed if anyone would have suggested this was out of bounds, and I certainly didn't get that from my SO. He said, "awesome, have a great time, and bring me a hookah if you can fit it into your luggage."

In your case, your husband doesn't trust you because of the EA. You know that, and it's great that you recognize he is going to be sensitive about trust issues. 

If, as you said, your H would have had a problem with this wedding even if you hadn't had an EA, then the two of you clearly view your dear friendship differently. You see him as an old friend, and even if he suddenly, inexplicably, turned straight, he still wouldn't hit on you because he respects your friendship and your marriage (as well as his own marriage!). Your H sees him as a man, and a threat to what you two have together. It's up to you to consider if his view of your friendship will be a problem for you in the long run. It would be a problem for me in my life, because I would consider his views unreasonable and irrational, and unacceptable.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Cletus said:


> When did attending a wedding with a long time friend become a date?


 As soon as the OP told us in Post #1 that the other man asked her "to go as his date to a wedding".


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Hristo2015 said:


> I'm not sure why people on here are saying "asking permission to date." If you read the thread - it's about going as a wedding guest.


 Because in your Post #1 you said that the other man asked "to go as his date to a wedding".


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Affair aside OP, this is a boundary that your husband of 11 years wants in your marriage.

Don't you think it is time to work on some agreed upon boundaries?

Given your affair, it is very reasonable that he doesn't want you alone with any man.

You talk about hoping trust comes back but honestly trust is earned.

Are you still working with your affair partner?

If so, how hard are you really trying to get another job?

It would really show your husband that he is a priority in your life.

I don't think any of the women that have posted about having alone time with osf have given their husbands reasons to not trust them.

They aren't cheaters.

How hard are you working to earn the trust back of your betrayed husband?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TRy said:


> As soon as the OP told us in Post #1 that the other man asked her "to go as his date to a wedding".


Fair enough. I was thinking of the version of the word that implies a potential romantic entanglement, not the version that implies "two people together at the same function".

My bad.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Fair enough. I was thinking of the version of the word that implies a potential romantic entanglement, not the version that implies "two people together at the same function".
> 
> My bad.


I think OP might just be her own worst enemy in this situation with the terms she uses and her unresolved trust issues with her husband.

I don't think you or anyone else that allow alone time with osf has a problem like the OP has.

You don't have infidelity in your history and you and your wife don't use terms like "date" when out with an osf.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

Hristo2015 said:


> Yes - definitely ill-advised at this point! I agree. I wasn't actually intending to attend the wedding - I knew it wouldn't fly and we already have plans that weekend. I told my H I was invited (he was right there when the text came in) and he immediately got upset that I would even raise this). I still think in general, going to a wedding with a married gay friend is fine. But not for me and not now.
> 
> I'm not sure why people on here are saying "asking permission to date." If you read the thread - it's about going as a wedding guest.


Going to a wedding with a member of the opposite sex is generally viewed as a date. You aren't just a guest at a wedding; you are attending as someone's partner for the evening. You also used the word "date" which shows that you were thinking of the outing that way before anyone here referred to wedding as such. 

Why would you even mention the wedding if you knew that it wouldn't fly and you already had plans? Were you trying to test your husband or purposely create conflict?  

I'm noticing an alarming insensitivity for the effects of your actions on your husband as well as a lack of respect for the commitment of marriage.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Hehehe. You do realize that massive amounts of fvckery occurs between people who are in your position.
> 
> Not claiming you are but if you have been doing it for any length of time you know what I am talking about.
> 
> ...



This. It is naive to think that every spouse is trustworthy and affairs never begin at work.


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## onlysunshine (Mar 15, 2015)

This is perhaps one of the weirdest threads I've ever read on this forum. I work with one of my best friends, a gay man, and I'm female. Being as though we work together every day, I spend more time with him that with pretty much anyone else, including my dh. We have lunch or coffee or whatever all the time. Just the two of us. And the idea of that being an issue or sexually charged in any way is just...like...the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I wouldn't bat an eye at going to an event with him, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if dh had a problem with it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I feel conflicted about all of this. On the one hand, my H and I mate guard each other so much that many people would find it stifling, and we both feel jealousy if someone else is moving in on the other. But on the other hand, we have both done a whole lot of fun, independent things that I've read so many people having an issue with, without any issue between us. I'm always left scratching my head on these issues, because it seems like when you drill down on every. little. thing. that could turn into an affair, you actually just show that you don't trust each other...which opposes intimacy increasing. But for my H and I, we are looking at the big picture. If either of us started showing interest in another person, this would NOT be missed for a moment. We don't have to watch each other's every move to notice if there's shenanigans going on. It will show up in a person's attitude, mood, demeanor, and what they are showing interest in.

That's why, even though it would make my H a little jealous if I went to a wedding with a ***** friend, he wouldn't assume it means I'm actually doing something wrong or would fall into the danger zone at a wedding. He would just know he was experiencing jealousy. 

If I acted aloof, distant, or disinterested in him for one moment though, he would immediately notice something was off between us. That's what would kick his boundary setting into high gear, not just the mention of me wanting to go to a wedding he doesn't want to go to anyway.

Though in the OP's case since she had an EA, I do understand her H is gunshy at this point.


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## Centurions (Jan 31, 2013)

Greetings!

Having OSF's? No fvvcking way. Going on dates...alone with an OSF? Lol! Not in my world. If my woman gibbered at me some nonsense of "I don't need your "permission"!; you can't tell me who I can be friends with!"

Simple. I'd kick her azz to the curb so fast her head would spin! Lol.

You have to protect your relationship. No OSF's. No "dates" with OSF's.

Fortunately for me, my Mexican girlfriend believes the same boundaries. Her entire family? The same way. Her aunts, sister, cousins...none of them would ever expect anything different. To ask such, let alone *demand* such, would be viewed as hugely wrong and disrespectful.

Oh, and the same expectations are there for the men as well. If any of the men went anywhere alone with a woman, well, she'd better be family, or any of the women would shred their man fast. The fight would be epic, I have no doubt.

OSF's and "dates" with OSF's just isn't done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Mrs.Submission said:


> This. It is naive to think that every spouse is trustworthy and affairs never begin at work.


Correct.

There are only two ways to affair proof your marriage. One is to chain your spouse to the stove and never let him out of your sight with someone of the opposite sex. This will work. The other is to ensure that your spouse is happy with you, to the best of your mutual ability.

Pick one. Only the first is guaranteed to work, at least until the police hammer down your door. Want to hasten your mates displeasure with you? Become obsessive and jealous. Husbands and wives just love this, and usually cannot wait to get more of it. Throw in a little stink of unwarranted mistrust, and you should be on the fast track to an affair. 

Wanting to reduce the chance of your spouse having an affair is a noble goal. Just make sure you're actions are translating into the outcome you want instead of the opposite.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> You don't have infidelity in your history and you and your wife don't use terms like "date" when out with an osf.


 Quoted for truth!!!!


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I just see this as allowing your spouse to go on a date with a member of the OS. No good can come from it. Plenty of bad.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Cletus said:


> There are only two ways to affair proof your marriage. One is to chain your spouse to the stove and never let him out of your sight with someone of the opposite sex. This will work. The other is to ensure that your spouse is happy with you, to the best of your mutual ability.


 1) Having marital boundaries is not the same as chaining "your spouse to the stove and never let him out of your sight with someone of the opposite sex". Martial boundaries are often based on the premise that although you can control what you do, you cannot control what you feel. Thus reducing the opportunity to be in a position where you could develop inappropriate feelings for an opposite sex friend ("OSF") is the goal of such boundaries.

2)You say in option 2 that you "ensure that your spouse is happy with you" as your way to protect your marriage from member of the opposite sex, but for this to work it means that she must always be "happy with you", and that there can never be rough times in your marriage. Good luck with that in a long term marriage. Also, I believe that having to compete with OSF as to who can make your spouse the most happy was something that both spouses gave up when they took their marriage vows. 

I guess for those of us that try as we might to do our best are not perfect, we must hide behind martial boundaries to protect our marriages. While others that are confident that they will never drop the ball, and know that they will always make their spouse happy all of the time, can operate with a different set of rules. Good for you if you think that you can be perfect, but that is just not me.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

Centurions said:


> Greetings!
> 
> Having OSF's? No fvvcking way. Going on dates...alone with an OSF? Lol! Not in my world. If my woman gibbered at me some nonsense of "I don't need your "permission"!; you can't tell me who I can be friends with!"
> 
> ...


If my husband ever referred to something I said like this,(your first paragraph) there would be hell to pay. And I'm not his woman, I'm his wife. We are partners. I don't ask for permission and either does he. 

Interesting. I'd be curious if there is any socioeconomic connection to this whole conversation.

I'm a woman who does quite well financially. My husband does very well too, but my income is significantly more, so maybe that empowers me. We married in our 30's, and my husband was attracted to me because I didn't come across as "someone looking for someone to rescue them" or helpless. We made about the same amount of money at the time we met.

We have always had some separate friends and some separate interests. We travel together just the two of us, and also with our kids sometimes, BUT we both travel alone or with other friends too. I hate camping, and my husband regularly camps with a coed group of friends. Some of the ladies are single. Under the rules that many of you go by, he would no longer be allowed to do that. He should give up something he likes and long time friends? It just doesn't make any sense to me.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Honestly, I think if you are trying to protect your marriage from old friends that are gay, your marriage is already in trouble or you are super-paranoid, or both.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

onlysunshine said:


> This is perhaps one of the weirdest threads I've ever read on this forum. I work with one of my best friends, a gay man, and I'm female. Being as though we work together every day, I spend more time with him that with pretty much anyone else, including my dh. We have lunch or coffee or whatever all the time. Just the two of us. And the idea of that being an issue or sexually charged in any way is just...like...the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I wouldn't bat an eye at going to an event with him, and I would be absolutely flabbergasted if dh had a problem with it.


One point however. Have you cheated on your husband with a coworker and still work with your affair partner?

We all have our own agreed to boundaries in our marriage but do you understand how you have not destroyed the trust in your marriage where OP has and she isn't working that hard to rebuild it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TRy said:


> 1) Having marital boundaries is not the same as chaining "your spouse to the stove and never let him out of your sight with someone of the opposite sex". Martial boundaries are often based on the premise that although you can control what you do, you cannot control what you feel. Thus reducing the opportunity to be in a position where you could develop inappropriate feelings for an opposite sex friend ("OSF") is the goal of such boundaries.


I understand. I argue that this is insufficient. 

Reducing the opportunities your spouse has to have an affair can only delay the inevitable if your spouse is susceptible to having an affair. You may win the battle this week, but you will lose it down the road, eventually. If your spouse feels too controlled by your misgivings, you may hasten that day substantially. 

Let's be realistic here. I'm not saying your wife should have a bevy of male friends that take her out drinking every Friday night while you stay home. I'm saying that disallowing your wife to go to a wedding with a gay friend she's had for 11 years in the general case is doing nothing useful to affair proof your marriage, and may be counter-productive. I am not arguing for no boundaries. I am arguing for effective boundaries that don't backfire in your face. 



> 2)You say in option 2 that you "ensure that your spouse is happy with you" as your way to protect your marriage from member of the opposite sex, but for this to work it means that she must always be "happy with you" more than anyone else and that there can never be rough times in your marriage. Good luck with that in a long term marriage.


And your option assumes that by keeping your spouse from having any interactions with members of the opposite sex, they will never find someone else attractive enough to have an affair. 

Then I wish you the same luck in keeping your wife away from every attractive man - at the gym, at the grocery store, at work, at Starbucks...

The level of control you would have to exert to make this actually work would be oppressive. 



> I guess for those of us that, try as we might to do our best, are not perfect, we must hide behind martial boundaries to protect our marriages. While others that are confident that they will never drop the ball, and know that they will always make their spouse happy all of the time, can operate with a different set of rules. Good for you if you think that you can be perfect, but that is just not me.


This isn't about me being better than you. This is about reality and actually reducing the likelihood of an affair. You cannot keep your spouse away from members of the opposite sex and hope that's your best firewall against the kind of discontent that leads to adultery. It is a strategy that will not accomplish what you wish from it, except perhaps in the short term. 

Your only hope, and it's not perfect either, is to do everything in your power to keep your spouse from wanting that affair in the first place. That includes being the best man for her in her life and not suspecting her of infidelity at each and every opportunity. 

There is no perfect solution. Affair proofing your marriage is like vaccinating against the flu. Getting the shot early is a much better solution than shuttering yourself in your house for 4 months of the year. 

There are reasonable, effective, mutually agreed upon boundaries that strengthen a marriage. There are ineffective boundaries that do nothing of the sort. There are bad boundaries that actively undermine the goal you're trying to accomplish. 

Just think about which one this case falls into.


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## Centurions (Jan 31, 2013)

Mrs.Submission said:


> This. It is naive to think that every spouse is trustworthy and affairs never begin at work.


Greetings!

Very true, Mrs. Submission!! Even when a spouse is trustworthy, playing with fire or naively underestimating how powerful temptation can be, can lead to disaster very quickly--and even in circumstances where you least expect it temptation to be.

I had a funny exchange with my girlfriend some time back. I was explaining to her a conversation I had at a meeting with my boss, at work. 

My boss is a good-looking woman, direct, funny, helpful, and sweetly ditzy at times. She's Columbian, and single, no children. She's great to work with, and I like her, and respect her.

Boss: "Good morning, Mr. Shark! How are you this morning?" (My boss often refers to me by Mr--and my first name, I.e, "Mr. Shark")

Me: "Good morning, Shakira! It's good to see you again! I'm doing outstanding, thank you! I'm in command of everything, staying on top! How do you like my numbers this quarter?"

Boss: "Oh my god! You're sales are fantastic, Mr. Shark! Just fantastic! You make me very happy! I have some paperwork here for you, as well as your sales award and commendation. I also have your bonus check here for the quarter. Congratulations, Shark. Thank you so very much! Your hard work means so much to me, Shark."

Me: "Thank you, Shakira! I'm glad sales are up so well. I work hard to stay on top. I like being number one in sales! My clients respond very well to me. I'm glad you are so happy, Shakira! Those bonus checks make me happy!"

Boss: "Yes, Shark, you do very well with our clients. That's sooo good. I've seen you in action. You always look sooo good, and you are so sweet, charming, and very professional, Mr. Shark. You're numbers are sooo hot, Shark, you are my favorite! Keep up the good work! If you need anything, let me know. You make me happy, so I want you to be happy! Thank you so much, Shark!"

I happily related that conversation to my Mexican girlfriend. She was very happy for me. She then said "hmmm...Shakira better just watch herself. She better know that you are MY MAN! If I find out she tries to step outta line with you, well...I'll have to meet her in the parking lot. I don't care if she's your boss. If she's rubbin her ass up on my man, trying to put her hands on you, she will see me go from sweet to ghetto in 60 seconds!--and you will, too!"

I laughed. I said "Dayuum, girl! No worries, baby."

Yeah, affairs can blow up on you easily at work. I hear about people fvvcking each other silly from co-workers. It happens all the time. You have to stay vigilant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

Centurions said:


> Greetings!
> 
> Very true, Mrs. Submission!! Even when a spouse is trustworthy, playing with fire or naively underestimating how powerful temptation can be, can lead to disaster very quickly--and even in circumstances where you least expect it temptation to be.
> 
> ...


I'm just curious what kind of business you are in where your boss comments about how you look sooo good and your numbers are sooo hot. Is it a cell phone store or something like that where people coming in off the street might be swayed by your appearance.

This doesn't seem like a corporate environment.

And why to you need to keep describing your girlfriend as your "Mexican girlfriend". Is it odd for you to have a "Mexican girlfriend", so you need to keep reminding yourself?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

norajane said:


> Honestly, I think if you are trying to protect your marriage from old friends that are gay, your marriage is already in trouble or you are super-paranoid, or both.


 I think the fact that the OP just had an EA a year ago entitles the husband to be "super-paranoid" don't you?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

TRy said:


> I think the fact that the OP just had an EA a year ago entitles the husband to be "super-paranoid" don't you?


As I said, and as you quoted:



> Honestly, *I think if you are trying to protect your marriage from old friends that are gay, your marriage is already in trouble* or you are super-paranoid, or both.


In this case, yes, their marriage was already in trouble.


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## Centurions (Jan 31, 2013)

Workathome said:


> I'm just curious what kind of business you are in where your boss comments about how you look sooo good and your numbers are sooo hot. Is it a cell phone store or something like that where people coming in off the street might be swayed by your appearance.
> 
> This doesn't seem like a corporate environment.
> 
> And why to you need to keep describing your girlfriend as your "Mexican girlfriend". Is it odd for you to have a "Mexican girlfriend", so you need to keep reminding yourself?


Greetings!

Yeah, I always look good. Looking good is important. Dressing sharp is impressive in any environment. Especially so in a *corporate environment*. Many corporations allow "business casual". Many employees like to "dress down" as much as possible.

I'm not one of them.

Increasing corporate accounts, client retention, customer service, is all critical to maintaining corporate profits and success. I'm good at doing such. I'm glad my boss is happy with my performance, my professionalism, and dedication.

My "Mexican girlfriend" is from a different sub-culture here in America. Some of her expectations and assumptions are distinctly different from the popular trend in society currently. I think it's refreshing. I'm "old school" myself.

So, no OSF's. 

Yeah, my girlfriend had "guy friends", ex-boyfriends, and "orbiting" guy friends just chomping at the bit to get with her. They are all gone. Because I said so.

I had the same thing. Yeah, they are all gone, too. Because my girlfriend said so.

Our OSF's are part of couples we are friends with. Neither one of us goes on "dates" or other BS with someone of the opposite sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Cletus said:


> And your option assumes that by keeping your spouse from having any interactions with members of the opposite sex, they will never find someone else attractive enough to have an affair.
> 
> Then I wish you the same luck in keeping your wife away from every attractive man - at the gym, at the grocery store, at work, at Starbucks...
> 
> The level of control you would have to exert to make this actually work would be oppressive.


 You keep attaching extreme claims such as chaining them "to the stove" or "keeping your spouse from having any interactions with members of the opposite sex" that those of us that believe in strong marital boundaries regarding OSF never made or implied. My wife and I have lots of interaction with members of the opposite sex, we just do not go on dates with them. Many of us believe that avoiding bonding intimate situations with members of the opposite sex is a reasonable thing to do, especially in this case where the OP had an EA.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

norajane said:


> In this case, yes, their marriage was already in trouble.


 Rather than turn this into a opposite sex friends debate thread jack, I will take your agreement with me on the OP's specific case, and let it go at that.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Hehehe. You do realize that massive amounts of fvckery occurs between people who are in your position.
> 
> Not claiming you are but if you have been doing it for any length of time you know what I am talking about.
> 
> ...


I've never seen a married person on either side of a business travel romance, and I'm not terribly young. I've seen a lot of singles hooking up though. I know married couples hooking up on travel happens, but just like the cheated on spouse, the business shouldn't have to be concerned about that or even consider it when it schedules work that needs doing.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

Mrs.Submission said:


> This. It is naive to think that every spouse is trustworthy and affairs never begin at work.


Of course affairs begin at work. Yet businesses should not hire one gender and one sexual preference exclusively to attempt to prevent it, and people should not only join companies where everyone is the same gender and has the same sexual preferences. 

People make mistakes everyone, but it's not the role of the business to play defensive anti-matchmaker when scheduling travel, dinners, events or extended periods of 1:1 work. It's up to the adults in those situations to control themselves.


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

Centurions said:


> Greetings!
> My boss is a good-looking woman, direct, funny, helpful, and sweetly ditzy at times. She's Columbian, and single, no children. She's great to work with, and I like her, and respect her.
> 
> Boss: "Good morning, Mr. Shark! How are you this morning?" (My boss often refers to me by Mr--and my first name, I.e, "Mr. Shark")
> ...


Dear Penthouse...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> I've never seen a married person on either side of a business travel romance, and I'm not terribly young. I've seen a lot of singles hooking up though. I know married couples hooking up on travel happens, but just like the cheated on spouse, the business shouldn't have to be concerned about that or even consider it when it schedules work that needs doing.


I actually wasn't challenging you about business practices. Very familiar and in agreement with you.

I was pointing out that an outrageous amount of cheating is certainly on the company dime and that your position on boundaries was not superior to others who avoid opposite sex alone time.

Your situation sounds very reasonable and an established boundary between you and your spouse.

I work with a lot of women but avoid 1-1 alone time with them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustAFamilyMan (Aug 27, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> I actually wasn't challenging you about business practices. Very familiar and in agreement with you.
> 
> I was pointing out that an outrageous amount of cheating is certainly on the company dime and that your position on boundaries was not superior to others who avoid opposite sex alone time.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I would guess that most affairs involve work or school. Has to be some reason for regular contact to get most of them moving. 

I just know if one of my employees emailed asking to not be assigned to tasks where they were 1:1 with someone of the opposite gender it would result in a lengthy conversation with them where it is unlikely I would ever agree to such a demand. It's not my or my business' responsibility to keep them faithful to their spouse.


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

jdawg2015 said:


> Take a step back and think about this. Were does a company EVER require male and female to go to dinners or private functions 1:1?
> 
> There are some fields such a police or paramedics where there is not way to avoid. But far, far, more common is that 1:1 private dinners and outings "to get work done" is a matter of fiction.
> 
> ...


It's really not uncommon at all in the legal profession.

We often have to travel for trial, depositions, etc. Sometimes two attorneys go, sometimes an attorney and a paralegal. Sometimes it will be a whole team of people. It depends on the size of the firm, the size of the case, the length of the trial, etc.

I have traveled around my state, 4-6 hour drives, with male colleagues on multiple occasions. We eat lunch and dinner together, sometimes even breakfast. Sometimes the client is there, often times not. We've even spent long hours preparing for the next day of trial in someone's hotel room.

The men that I've done this with have sometimes been my friends and sometimes people I really don't like. But work has to be done. We're focused on that to the point of exhaustion. It's really, really not sexy, IMO.

There are people in our profession who cheat on their spouses while traveling for business. But there are people in my profession who cheat on their spouses with the secretary in the office without ever going out to eat with one another.

The way I see it is there are two kinds of people in this world. People who believe that rules make them safe and people who believe that rules are either unnecessary or ineffective.

I'm of the latter persuasion. I think cheaters are gonna cheat. Doesn't matter the boundaries you have. If it's in their heart to do, they'll do it. And by the same token, if it's not in their heart to do it, it doesn't matter what opportunities there are around them, they won't cheat.

I would not be bothered by the situation in the OP. I wouldn't even be bothered if my husband wanted to go to a wedding with a heterosexual female friend. (That being said, it's extremely unlikely that my husband would ever want to go to a social event like a wedding without me. He's not comfortable in those kinds of situations; kinda shy and depends on me to take the lead in socializing.)


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> Yeah, I would guess that most affairs involve work or school. Has to be some reason for regular contact to get most of them moving.
> 
> I just know if one of my employees emailed asking to not be assigned to tasks where they were 1:1 with someone of the opposite gender it would result in a lengthy conversation with them where it is unlikely I would ever agree to such a demand. It's not my or my business' responsibility to keep them faithful to their spouse.


In the OPs case, it is between her husband and her. Not her employer.

She actually did cheat with a coworker and is still working with her affair partner.

She has not done a lot to earn trust from her husband and that is the issue.

I understand that you were responding to a certain post with this but those of us who have opposite sex boundaries manage our lives successfully around them.

I've been in my field for twenty years and I definitely could have chosen paths that led me to a similar company arrangement as yours. I have chosen otherwise and been very successful.

I really have no disagreement about how companies are ran.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Centurions (Jan 31, 2013)

TRy said:


> You keep attaching extreme claims such as chaining them "to the stove" or "keeping your spouse from having any interactions with members of the opposite sex" that those of us that believe in strong marital boundaries regarding OSF never made or implied. My wife and I have lots of interaction with members of the opposite sex, we just do not go on dates with them. Many of us believe that avoiding bonding intimate situations with members of the opposite sex is a reasonable thing to do, especially in this case where the OP had an EA.


Greetings!

What, TRy, you're not a Neanderthal? Lol. Excellent, sir. Keep those boundaries strong!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

Workathome said:


> I'm just curious what kind of business you are in where your boss comments about how you look sooo good and your numbers are sooo hot. Is it a cell phone store or something like that where people coming in off the street might be swayed by your appearance.
> 
> This doesn't seem like a corporate environment.
> 
> And why to you need to keep describing your girlfriend as your "Mexican girlfriend". Is it odd for you to have a "Mexican girlfriend", so you need to keep reminding yourself?


Corporate environments are not immune to unprofessional behavior. 

Culture plays a part in acceptable behavior for those in romantic relationships.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> Of course affairs begin at work. Yet businesses should not hire one gender and one sexual preference exclusively to attempt to prevent it, and people should not only join companies where everyone is the same gender and has the same sexual preferences.
> 
> People make mistakes everyone, but it's not the role of the business to play defensive anti-matchmaker when scheduling travel, dinners, events or extended periods of 1:1 work. It's up to the adults in those situations to control themselves.


I agree that adults should control themselves. However, we all know that some coworkers will use alone time with the opposite sex as an opportunity for inappropriate relationships. 

I wonder if some of you would be so confident after your spouse cheated with a coworker.

I don't think that spouses should ask for permission to do anything. That will create resentment because no adult wants to be treated like a child. I do believe that spouses should check with each other out of respect when it comes to OSF or anything that can be misconstrued as inappropriate.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Mrs.Submission said:


> I don't think that spouses should ask for permission to do anything. That will create resentment because no adult wants to be treated like a child. I do believe that spouses should check with each other out of respect when it comes to OSF or anything that can be misconstrued as inappropriate.


A key point here is that if a spouse comes to you and asks, and it clearly is an out of bounds for that person already, that means a key discussion about core values was already missed.

When you are in a committed relationship I think this topic is extremely important to have ironed out and alignment on before things get to the point of marriage.

So many people don't want to appear "jealous" or "controlling" when it comes down to culture, values, and beliefs.

I caution anyone to consider OSF with extreme trepidation. That single guy friend you think just a buddy? Think long and hard what you are really gaining with the friendship before you displace the feelings of the person who is actually committed to you. The risks far outweigh the benefits. Will that friend take a bullet for you, help pay your bills, or do they just want dinner and drinks?

You can go read my thread, I only have one. After we split, we've met up and discussed trying work it out, etc. There's definitely bonds that have not been broken....

My ex fiancé actually admitted to me that during our time together, she accidently sent a text to the wrong person. She has a male and female friend with the exact same name (yes, it's true). When she texted he replied "who is this" and she said "jdawgsfiance". He then went on to admit he had always had a crush on her, etc etc. Of course she only told me this recently, not at the time. But the point is, he was one of the guys I felt was a threat and exFiance blew it off said I was crazy (exact word). My issue was it was too much of a trend.


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## Centurions (Jan 31, 2013)

jdawg2015 said:


> A key point here is that if a spouse comes to you and asks, and it clearly is an out of bounds for that person already, that means a key discussion about core values was already missed.
> 
> When you are in a committed relationship I think this topic is extremely important to have ironed out and alignment on before things get to the point of marriage.
> 
> ...



Greetings!

You know, it's interesting how much power culture, values, and beliefs can be on a whole range of topics in a relationship. While not enforcing a "guarantee" of no cheating, "NO OSF's" does do a lot to work against the whole, "we're just friends!" BS before the "oops! I'm sorry! I don't know how I fell on his penis! It was a mistake!". That nonsense is hugely reduced. 

About every other weekend, my girlfriend and I get together with her uncles, aunts, sister, cousins. Party, food and all that. I can imagine the epic fight I'd get into if I told my girlfriend, 
"Hey, on Saturday's family party at your uncles? I'm out. You go alone, without me. I'll be going to dinner--or whatever--with my "friend", "Melissa". I just know that wouldn't go over well! Lol!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

Centurions said:


> Greetings!
> 
> *You know, it's interesting how much power culture, values, and beliefs can be on a whole range of topics in a relationship. While not enforcing a "guarantee" of no cheating, "NO OSF's" does do a lot to work against the whole, "we're just friends!" BS before the "oops! I'm sorry! I don't know how I fell on his penis! It was a mistake!". That nonsense is hugely reduced.
> *
> ...


This. It's much harder for cheating to occur when opportunists are not given an invitation by way of "friendship."


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## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

JustAFamilyMan said:


> Of course affairs begin at work. Yet businesses should not hire one gender and one sexual preference exclusively to attempt to prevent it, and people should not only join companies where everyone is the same gender and has the same sexual preferences.
> 
> People make mistakes everyone, but it's not the role of the business to play defensive anti-matchmaker when scheduling travel, dinners, events or extended periods of 1:1 work. It's up to the adults in those situations to control themselves.


Not so sure about this. It makes a company look very bad if affairs between married employees get revealed. It's unethical and immoral. This is especially true for high profile companies.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

TRy said:


> You keep attaching extreme claims such as chaining them "to the stove" or "keeping your spouse from having any interactions with members of the opposite sex" that those of us that believe in strong marital boundaries regarding OSF never made or implied. My wife and I have lots of interaction with members of the opposite sex, we just do not go on dates with them. Many of us believe that *avoiding bonding intimate situations *with members of the opposite sex is a reasonable thing to do, especially in this case where the OP had an EA.


Exactly, that's the key part I think. Also avoiding other situations that could then lead to intimate situations. Take a wedding for example; they're not all the same obviously but some are large affairs (no pun intended) with huge parties afterward. Start mixing alcohol in the mix and people let their guard down, boundaries start slipping, rationalizations happen, etc. It's a slippery slope. Why put yourself directly on the edge of it? 

**also, a few of you are getting onto the OP like she threw this in her H's face and wanted to fight about it. She said in one reply that the text came in from the gay friend while her H was standing next to her. Just wanted to clarify that for a few folks.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

TheGoodGuy said:


> **also, a few of you are getting onto the OP like she threw this in her H's face and wanted to fight about it. She said in one reply that the text came in from the gay friend while her H was standing next to her. Just wanted to clarify that for a few folks.


Can I refer you to the posting below by the OP? Particularly the bold items. Some people, myself included, think that a former wayward spouse shouldn't be doing that to a betrayed spouse.



Hristo2015 said:


> Also, I am definitely not going to the wedding (I already told my friend I couldn't go - I didn't actually want to go!) *but my husband and I did get into a fight about it.* I know my friend isn't going to "switch teams" and I don't even think of him as the opposite sex but at he end of the day if my husband isn't comfortable then I can understand that. *I did argue about it with him on the principle but that only made it worse!*


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## dignityhonorpride (Jan 2, 2014)

jdawg2015 said:


> Take a step back and think about this. Were does a company EVER require male and female to go to dinners or private functions 1:1?
> 
> There are some fields such a police or paramedics where there is not way to avoid. But far, far, more common is that 1:1 private dinners and outings "to get work done" is a matter of fiction.
> 
> ...


Uhh, ANY professional services firm, ever? Meaning law, accounting, consulting, etc. I work in public accounting and have had to go to the field (client sites) for days at a time, sometimes with just one man or just a couple of men (I'm a married woman). Granted, if it's ever an overnight, I do meals/down time solo and get my own hotel room far far away from everyone else. In any case I literally could not work in public accounting if I refused to go out in the field / work directly and exclusively with only men; no firm would be able to utilise me. 

For all the men claiming MARRIED homosexual men will "switch teams," what about the fact that some women are gay, and your wives' female friends could "turn," by your logic, and hit on / date your wives? Your wives could "switch teams" too by this logic in which case I guess no friends are safe, right? 

Additionally, all the men who say they refuse to work one-on-one with women, please consider the fact that your refusal may be preventing well-qualified women from getting jobs (because your employers dont want the scheduling hassle), which only perpetuates the wage gap and, therefore, alimony (in the ~10% of cases in which it is awarded in the US).


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Workathome said:


> *I'm a married woman and my best friend is a gay man. We do a lot of things together. * My husband knows him and has no problem with me doing activities alone with him. He doesn't feel threatened, and I would have a huge problem if he told me that he didn't want me hanging out with him. I have never given him a reason to not trust me, so he damn well needs to trust me. That is how we roll, and I can't imagine being married to someone who felt that they were allowed to pick my friends for me or limit my activities.
> 
> Sounds like your husband doesn't understand the "gay thing". You don't just switch sides.


When someone is married and they call another their "*Best friend*" -that means superior, above all, a deeper connection than with anyone else, you freely share all your secrets with a best friend ..that's what comes to mind...

You don't look upon your husband as your best friend ? It's always been this way ?

Just trying to understand.. This can work in some marriages...I would have a problem if my husband didn't see ME as his "Best" though.. he would feel the same...but that's just us. 

I've witnessed 2 female friends (non -lesbian) grow SO CLOSE.. that it almost disrupted one of their marriages.... the husband had to put a stop to it.. as the friend was starting to talk bad about him.. influencing his wife ....they were heading to a very bad place, she was always out with the friend.. this friend felt like another parent to their kids.. too much liberty , too much comfort.

Anything can lead to poor boundaries... Wouldn't matter if sex wasn't involved so much.. just the connection that it could take one down another path.. we all influence each other..... it can be very subtle even...

Just another perspective is all .


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## DoneWithHurting (Feb 4, 2015)

So last week a client of my wife's asked her to meet with a friend of hers to see if there was anything we could do to help him. I did my research and discovered the guy is a hunk one trick pony in the world of entertainment who uses his "charm" to get what he wants. Physically this guy towers over me and seems to have all the physical traits she has told me she is attracted to. I became aware of this client request at the end of some email exchanges between him and my wife while I was out for the evening. She then told me I should come to the meeting. I read the emails. He basically told her how the meeting was to take place, when and what they would do (have coffee). She, not wanting to piss off her client went along with everything he wanted.

I, not wanting to appear controlling, beta or nervous about this meeting, played along while in my mind running through all of the various scenarios of his behavior at this meeting. 

A bit of background. Married over 30 years. W had a PA many years ago and a LT EA with a gay employee who ended up being a thorn in my side. All that was dealt with and we have been a happily married couple for 5 years now.

Back to this situation. Having been on TAM long enough to know what happens in real life, I have told her that she may not work one on one with adult males. I am not interested in repeating any of our past. So I spent 2 days going through hoe i would handle this meeting from the very first handshake (which is a big deal to us guys) to any agreed upon "working" solutions, which I in the end would not agree to anyway.

The morning of the meeting, I realized that there is no way I wanted to do this, I told her to cancel the meeting. That he was a player and that we wouldnt get anything out of the meeting except possibly me being hostile to any attempts of charming my wife. She agreed without hesitation and cancelled the meeting. No problem.

So... yesterday we were in our weekly love making session and right in the midst of the passion, she says, you cant control everything and I can work with whoever i want. I stopped what i was doing, and said calmly, yes you can, just not married to me. I then explained my boundaries concerning the opposite sex. When she tried to counter I said quite sternly, you have 2 affairs in the past and I am not going through that again. I will not control you, tell you what to do or not, but I will not tolerate it in my life and we can divorce.

She heard me quite clearly and dropped the subject. We then had a wonderful session of sex.

Since then she has been loving, attentive and generally fantastic.

So thank you TAM for teaching me about OSF, players, and mate guarding, alpha vs beta and all the other nonsense we with stronger boundaries and an ability to see a possible disaster in the future have.

It does suck having these thoughts in the back of my mind all the time, but I think if you don't, and go about life blindly trusting, then you will get burned. A life in balance is HARD. Once you achieve balance in anything, it takes tremendous work to stay that way. Balancing is hard - just try standing on one leg for afew minutes and see how that works out. The Universe is in constant motion... balancing is hard work.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

DoneWithHurting said:


> So last week a client of my wife's asked her to meet with a friend of hers to see if there was anything we could do to help him. I did my research and discovered the guy is a hunk one trick pony in the world of entertainment who uses his "charm" to get what he wants. Physically this guy towers over me and seems to have all the physical traits she has told me she is attracted to. I became aware of this client request at the end of some email exchanges between him and my wife while I was out for the evening. She then told me I should come to the meeting. I read the emails. He basically told her how the meeting was to take place, when and what they would do (have coffee). She, not wanting to piss off her client went along with everything he wanted.
> 
> I, not wanting to appear controlling, beta or nervous about this meeting, played along while in my mind running through all of the various scenarios of his behavior at this meeting.
> 
> ...


The original post did not say anything about the OP having affairs, and my response to her was based on this. You obviously have lots of reasons not to trust your spouse, and that is a different situation all together.

If I didn't trust my spouse, I wouldn't be married to him. He feels the same. I've never felt tempted to cheat on my husband. If I had to spend so much emotional energy worrying about what he was doing, I would choose not to be married to him. Life is too short to spend it in a constant state of worry about what my spouse is doing or thinking.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> When someone is married and they call another their "*Best friend*" -that means superior, above all, a deeper connection than with anyone else, you freely share all your secrets with a best friend ..that's what comes to mind...
> 
> You don't look upon your husband as your best friend ? It's always been this way ?
> 
> ...


Please don't use your definition of best friend and apply it to me.

My husband is my partner, my lover, my confidante, my heart and soul. That is so much above a best friend. He knows that and now you do too.

Every one needs friends, and any spouse who tries to keep their partner from having good friends is doing their spouse an incredible disservice.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

dignityhonorpride said:


> alimony (in the ~10% of cases in which it is awarded in the US).


 Where did you get the 10% number? Does it take into consideration effective alimony where one side gives the other side additional assets in settlement of alimony instead of making monthly payments? For example, I have a friend that gave in alimony settlement the home that they lived in, in even thought he owned the home alone years prior to meeting his now ex-wife. I know many other examples of this.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Workathome said:


> If I didn't trust my spouse, I wouldn't be married to him. He feels the same.


 Pretty much everyone says that prior to discovering an affair in their marriage, but in real life many change their minds when confronted with the reality of it.


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## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

TRy said:


> Pretty much everyone says that prior to discovering an affair in their marriage, but in real life many change their minds when confronted with the reality of it.


A marriage will NEVER be the same after an affair. Those who say it could be good or better only need to read the posts here from those who have to worry about every move their spouse makes post affair.

I would not stay married to a spouse I couldn't trust. Simple as that.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

To answer the title of this thread: It depends. If my husband did not like the idea, then I would not accept the invitation. HE and I are in good place and he does not have a problem the relationships that I have with other men. But then they more like acquaintanceships - people whom I see at the usual meetups and other activities that I go to -- than buddy-like friends.

I do know women who do their tour of duty as lesbians and then swing back to hetero. There are also bisexuals out there. So if my husband were to ask if he could go to a wedding with a lesbian friend, hmmm, it might be that I will have more to worry about. But also I think there is the same femal / woman dynamic going on. That is, I would not want my husband to be friends with a woman who disses me (you know the type that I have encountered before. ie "My relationship with your husband has nothing to do with you." Yup, I've gotten it before.

Imagine, guys, if your wife had a gay friend like this (starts at 4:40):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17Zrb6QCLXE

But also, EAs are toxic to a marriage. Gay men can have EAs with women. And I agree that same sex friendships can be toxic to a marriage. So everything is on a case by case basis.

OP, given your track record, however, I can see why your husband may be hypervigilant.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Cletus said:


> This is where I part ways with some. I will not be held hostage to my spouses irrational beliefs. Just because she thinks something is so does not automatically make it so, and I am not necessarily duty bound to respect that opinion, though of course I may decide to do so for the sake of our marriage. But I am under no obligation.
> 
> This position comes for long exposure to the mentally ill people in my family, I suppose, some of whom believe wholeheartedly in a wide array of silly notions. I would rather discuss with my spouse how this is NOT a date, how she is in no way threatened, and why if I decide to abide her wishes, it is completely out of deference to our relationship, not to some incorrect truth she believes.
> 
> Of course, I afford her the same rights. Absolute veto power is a tool that should be used very sparingly in a marriage.


I agree with your point of view on this.

Typically we think of dates as something with the idea of romance in the air. There will not be romance in the air. She could be going to the wedding with a female friend.. some thing.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jdawg2015 said:


> Take a step back and think about this. Were does a company EVER require male and female to go to dinners or private functions 1:1?
> 
> There are some fields such a police or paramedics where there is not way to avoid. But far, far, more common is that 1:1 private dinners and outings "to get work done" is a matter of fiction.
> 
> ...


In my job I have worked alone with men in locked labs… sometimes till late at night. I have traveled with men, meaning that we leave out of the same airport, board the same air plane, maybe even sit in the same row and talk. Then de-board at the next airport, rent a car and drive to the hotel. Sometimes it’s one guy traveling, sometimes it’s more. I’ve gone to dinner with my male coworkers … some times in the same hotel, sometimes a whole group goes out together. 

In the last 33 years, one guy who I did not know but was in the same class with me asked me to his room. I told him I was not interested. That’s the only time in 33 years. If I could not work with the men on my job and socialize at times I would not have a job. That’s limiting my ability to support my family… profoundly unfair.

I have no interest in cheating so I did not cheat. People who want to cheat will find a way to cheat.

The way I look at it is that if my husband wants to cheat, he’s going to. And I’ll find out and dump his a$$. Sure some mutual mate guarding is fine. But limiting a person’s ability to earn a living and treating them like they have no control over themselves is beyond ridiculous.

In the case of the OP, if her husband does not want her to go, then under the circumstances it was wise of her not to go.

But I think that generally, the idea that a woman cannot do something social with a gay man is nonsense. This is a guy that they have known for 20 years. There may be an outside chance that he suddenly decides that he likes women, high unlikely. So I guess she had better not have any female friends either, after all the female friend might tactually be bisexual or a lesbian.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Hristo2015 said:


> My gay friend, who I have been friends with for 20 years and gone to several weddings with - as well as vacations - before I was married, asked me to go as his date to a wedding because his husband is out of town (both me and my friend are married).


I'd ask my H why this makes him uncomfortable? Isn't your gay friend his friend too?

If not, then I wouldn't go out of respect for my husband. Your friend can find someone else to go with. It's just a party.


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

You lost me at the word "let".....


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

DoneWithHurting said:


> So... yesterday we were in our weekly love making session and *right in the midst of the passion, she says, you cant control everything and I can work with whoever i want*. I stopped what i was doing, and said calmly, yes you can, just not married to me. I then explained my boundaries concerning the opposite sex. When she tried to counter I said quite sternly, you have 2 affairs in the past and I am not going through that again. I will not control you, tell you what to do or not, but I will not tolerate it in my life and we can divorce.


what...the....heck? why would she do this? :scratchhead: that's just bizarre.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

OP, if you are still reading your thread I have a question. You say that you had no intentions of going to this wedding anyway but you brought it up and it resulted in an argument with your husband. If you are trying to reconcile your marriage after having an affair why would you intentionally provoke a fight with the man you are asking to forgive you for your betrayal?


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

TRy said:


> Where did you get the 10% number? Does it take into consideration effective alimony where one side gives the other side additional assets in settlement of alimony instead of making monthly payments? For example, I have a friend that gave in alimony settlement the home that they lived in, in even thought he owned the home alone years prior to meeting his now ex-wife. I know many other examples of this.


And even better normalize it to long term marriages. Some states its 10 others 15 but if you get long term marriage the cost is damn high.

In my case I gave up the majority of my 401k plus paid her rent for two years and she got both the cars (I was living overseas so did not need) and I got the house. It was either that or pay "spousal support".

I also paid for our daughters college tuition. 

20 years. And we both worked. 

So did I pay alimony? Nope. Did I pay high price? Yep.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> But I think that generally, the idea that a woman cannot do something social with a gay man is nonsense. This is a guy that they have known for 20 years. There may be an outside chance that he suddenly decides that he likes women, high unlikely. *So I guess she had better not have any female friends either, after all the female friend might tactually be bisexual or a lesbian*.


Classic strawman argument. This is honestly why I find it difficult to respond to many of your posts... 

1. Spouses should agree is they accept concept of 1:1 with OSF friends. If there is no alignment on this then issues will be perpetual. Neither is necessarily wrong EXCEPT if they agree upfront and change after the fact. It's actually the social norm in the circles I run that it's no not have spouses ever going to dinner, wedding, etc with an OSF. Unthinkable. And that covers multiple nationalities.

2. There's a big difference between having a co-worker vs that co-worker who then extends to evening chats, dinners alone, etc and then that same person is a threat. You are pinning everything down like absolute. There have been people who were friends for years, let their guard down and poof they screw. They regret it but had they not gotten too close it would not have happened.

This is pretty simple folks. Either your spouse is comfortable with OSF or not. If not and you force the issue, marriage is doomed. And heaven forbid you do it in secret and spouse finds out. They will be the next user name in TAM.....


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## dignityhonorpride (Jan 2, 2014)

TRy said:


> Where did you get the 10% number? Does it take into consideration effective alimony where one side gives the other side additional assets in settlement of alimony instead of making monthly payments? For example, I have a friend that gave in alimony settlement the home that they lived in, in even thought he owned the home alone years prior to meeting his now ex-wife. I know many other examples of this.


I spent about 2 minutes looking for my source before remembering it actually doesnt matter - if the figure is actually higher, even more reason to not block women from decent jobs to "protect" one men's marriages.

I still don't understand what the difference is between a woman having a gay male friend who could suddenly switch sides (a concept that is extremely offensive to homosexual -not bisexual- men, by the way) and a straight female friend who, by the logic in this thread, could also switch sides and become a lesbian or bisexual.

Idk. I'm a betrayed wife and used to believe hard and fast rules like this could protect me / my marriage but the fact is, everywhere you go, there you are. And if you are a cheater, you will find a way to cheat. If you're not a cheater, you will not cheat. It's scarier to kind of give up control and say "if s/he is going to cheat, s/he will just do it, regardless of rules about one-on-one situations, osf at work, opposite sex co-workers, etc" rather than feeling protected by a well-reasoned set of rules and guidelines, but personally I find it more realistic. And I do believe in boundaries, but those are fundamentally different than rules.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I agree with your point of view on this.
> 
> Typically we think of dates as something with the idea of romance in the air. There will not be romance in the air. She could be going to the wedding with a female friend.. some thing.


Ok, Ok, we will concede that on this occasion this guy is gay for life and the OP is only doing what she and this guy have always done.

But I agree with a lot of other people in this online community that one on one can be misconstrued as a date either consciously or subconsciously. I had linked to another thread here a while back an article from Psychology Today in which the authors quoted findings from a survey. 

That is, that a lot of guys have not bought into the OSF thing because whenever they go out with their so-called female friends, the women would act as as if it were a date and expecting their male "friend" to pay for the evening as well as provide for transportation to and from the "outing" (of course, cause it's not a date.)

Anyone who follows my posts know already how grating that is when you are faithful to your partner, don't run out with other (so-called) male friends, only to find your partner giving better treatment to some other woman because why? He doesn't see her as often as he sees me. Well, I can fix that. 

Or as my (future) husband misguidedly said to me "Well, I have higher standards for someone I choose as a girlfriend as opposed to just a friend." That's fine to have higher standards, but the the reward for becoming a girlfriend should be higher than the reward for being just a friend.

IOW, the emotions that get drummed up in these situations simply are out of sync with the reality that is created.

If the OP can hang out with her gay friend without making the mistake of (even unconsciously) prioritsing his needs over those of her husband, then good for her. 

But we know that opposite is possible as well.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

NextTimeAround said:


> Anyone who follows my posts know already how grating that is when you are faithful to your partner, don't run out with other (so-called) male friends, only to find your partner giving better treatment to some other woman because why? He doesn't see her as often as he sees me. Well, I can fix that.


+1 

Many on here just so willing to give up their time for an OSF. My question is what they hell are you doing with your spouse?

I barely have enough time as it is.

Can only imagine how it would be to say, "Hi honey, I'm taking Jane Doe to dinner for the night, see ya later". 

Couples friends etc all make sense, But the 1:1 I just don't get. I truly don't.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

dignityhonorpride said:


> I spent about 2 minutes looking for my source before remembering it actually doesnt matter - if the figure is actually higher, even more reason to not block women from decent jobs to "protect" one men's marriages.
> 
> I still don't understand what the difference is between a woman having a gay male friend who could suddenly switch sides (a concept that is extremely offensive to homosexual -not bisexual- men, by the way) and a straight female friend who, by the logic in this thread, could also switch sides and become a lesbian or bisexual.
> 
> Idk. I'm a betrayed wife and used to believe hard and fast rules like this could protect me / my marriage but the fact is, everywhere you go, there you are. And if you are a cheater, you will find a way to cheat. If you're not a cheater, you will not cheat. It's scarier to kind of give up control and say "if s/he is going to cheat, s/he will just do it, regardless of rules about one-on-one situations, osf at work, opposite sex co-workers, etc" rather than feeling protected by a well-reasoned set of rules and guidelines, but personally I find it more realistic. And I do believe in boundaries, but those are fundamentally different than rules.


How you are relating this to women in the workplace is rather bizarre. 

This is about values, culture, etc. You are right, any person can cheat. No "rule" will prevent that. But if you are married and committed there are norms that people accept and those that are not accepted.

My personal experience, looking at the marriages that are strong, it that they don't do 1:1.

Also, if these coworkers are also encroaching into personal time as well (chat, fb, etc) my advice is this is a long-term recipe for disaster. Mid-life crisis stuff and BAM, marriage ruined. 

If people are not spending a decent amount of time with their spouse, and then spending time with and OSF, especially alone, how can a person objectively say that's healthy. 

Even those who agree to OSF admit there are times when it's not appropriate and situation. So it comes back to OSF definitely are a risk. And if you have a GOOD marriage I've yet to see the benefit of OSF. 

My personal belief is that there always must be clearly defined boundaries. TAM is filled with cases of crap boundaries and then it's so hard to reel it in and the sufferfest begins.

I've learned a lot in my recent relationship about this and have enjoyed reading how people have dealt with their issues. Always good to have another perspective.

But in your case where you were betrayed, sadly you are weak now on your core beliefs as you've been hurt so now you question your own as it would appear based on your last paragraph. It's not wrong, jealous, or controlling to believe in no OSF. If that's how you feel that's how you feel. If you find a person who does not agree save yourself the agony and move on.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

one advantage to boundaries is that when they aren't met, they become early warning signals.

IF you agree that your spouse can see OSFs one on one, then how many one on ones in a short span of time would it take to signal that you have a problem?


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

NextTimeAround said:


> one advantage to boundaries is that when they aren't met, they become early warning signals.
> 
> IF you agree that your spouse can see OSFs one on one, then how many one on ones in a short span of time would it take to signal that you have a problem?


This is spot on!

The issue with the OSF is ok thing is like you say, when things seem a bit too much the spouse pushing the limit can then start the whole jealous and controlling defence. What, "you don't trust me"?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Eh, I can't refuse assignments with men since my dept is mostly men. It's no big deal, all work is done in public in the office and everyone goes home at the end of the day
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Considering the men you work with, I wouldn't be worried anyway.
Oh, you're not actually Leela? Never mind then. >


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

A wedding usually involves alcohol does it not? Sexual experimentation happens whether you are gay or straight. The gay man can call sex with a woman experimentation. He may not be switching sides, just visiting for a while. For the woman in this case it becomes a costly ONS with an OSF. OMG!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## saubryn (May 12, 2015)

I'm married and my best friend is a married man (my husband knows him but they would never really become good friends with each other). My husband and I are both athletes but we train with different teams. We spend a lot of time socialising separately. I can't imagine having an occasion to go to a wedding with any of the guys I socialise with, but it wouldn't be a problem if it happened. One on one evening meals, and hanging out during the day (part work, part just fun) is pretty normal. Most of my husband's friends are men, but he does have a very close female friend (that I know and like, but rarely have occasion to spend time with) and he's in touch with some of his exes (one of those I don't get on with, but it's a personality clash rather than a lack of trust - when they hang out I keep out of the way by choice).

TRUST I think is the big thing here. I went on a three day trip (mostly sports related) with the 'best friend' last year. There was a strong possibility that it would just be me and him, but at the last minute his girlfriend was able to get tickets. My husband didn't want to go and was indifferent as to who was there or not. When it looked like the girlfriend wasn't going to be able to get tickets, I offered her mine. She appreciated the gesture, but said that if she couldn't go it was no big deal and she hoped we would have fun. 

We both have unrestricted access to each other's computers and phones. We tell each other where we're going and what we're up to. There was one occasion where he had a problem with a male friend of mine - an actual lack of trust, rather than "that guy's so disorganised how can you put up with him", which is the case with my best friend. I'm no longer in touch with that guy.

We have a few rules that must never be broken. If either of us feels like a boundary is being pushed we will have a frank discussion about it. That works for us.

There are men on my team that will not form friendships with women at all out of respect for their partners. That works for them. If I were single, I wouldn't get into a relationship with someone who had that rule because I know it would cause problems for both of us further down the line.

The OP's scenario is a weird one. I've never been cheated on so I don't know how long it takes to rebuild trust. Actually, if I was cheated on I don't even think I would rebuild trust, I'm not that forgiving. So from my perspective the husband is entitled to make whatever restrictions he feels necessary to reconcile given the betrayal of trust.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

saubryn said:


> The OP's scenario is a weird one. I've never been cheated on so I don't know how long it takes to rebuild trust. Actually, if I was cheated on I don't even think I would rebuild trust, I'm not that forgiving. So from my perspective the husband is entitled to make whatever restrictions he feels necessary to reconcile given the betrayal of trust.


Just to be clear. The OP is not weird at all for feeling the way he does.

It's a very normal boundary. He feels in some ways his wife if giving more attention to the male friend as his expense as well.

Your boundaries with your husband you agree upon. If those boundaries you have are what works for you great, but having different boundaries does not make them "weird".

You won't find many on TAM who would agree to having a spouse travel alone for personal activities and spending time with an OSF as you do in your marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think you have to know your own vulnerability.

I don't like bars. I don't like smoke, loud music, too much alcohol. I am not worried that if I had to spend time in bars that I would become an alcoholic.

I do, however, love pastry. I think spending too much time in bakeries could be dangerous for me.

I am not sure anyone else's making boundaries for me would be as effective as my making boundaries for myself. Jmo.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Answer is NO. Regardless of gayness of friend.


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## saubryn (May 12, 2015)

jdawg2015 said:


> Just to be clear. The OP is not weird at all for feeling the way he does.
> 
> It's a very normal boundary. He feels in some ways his wife if giving more attention to the male friend as his expense as well.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I see your point - that's not quite what I meant by "weird", though. I meant that it was more complex because there was cheating in the past, so what might have been acceptable if there was no trust issues might not be acceptable now, or might not ever be acceptable again if the trust doesn't come back.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

saubryn said:


> I'm married and my best friend is a married man (my husband knows him but they would never really become good friends with each other). My husband and I are both athletes but we train with different teams. We spend a lot of time socialising separately. I can't imagine having an occasion to go to a wedding with any of the guys I socialise with, but it wouldn't be a problem if it happened. One on one evening meals, and hanging out during the day (part work, part just fun) is pretty normal. Most of my husband's friends are men, but he does have a very close female friend (that I know and like, but rarely have occasion to spend time with) and he's in touch with some of his exes (one of those I don't get on with, but it's a personality clash rather than a lack of trust - when they hang out I keep out of the way by choice).
> 
> TRUST I think is the big thing here. I went on a three day trip (mostly sports related) with the 'best friend' last year. There was a strong possibility that it would just be me and him, but at the last minute his girlfriend was able to get tickets. My husband didn't want to go and was indifferent as to who was there or not. When it looked like the girlfriend wasn't going to be able to get tickets, I offered her mine. She appreciated the gesture, but said that if she couldn't go it was no big deal and she hoped we would have fun.
> 
> ...


I actually think it is a great thing when couples can give this level of independence and trust to each other.

And don't think there is a thing wrong with it at all when integrity and complete respect for appropriate boundaries are maintained.

But a WS, even if they have had such a relationship in the past, has to realize that this type of mutual trust is FOREVER gone once they cheat on their partner.

I think you realize this too based on your last paragraph.

If either you or your H was to ever betray the trust you share, the entire wonderful arrangement you two share would be shattered permanently, never to return.

Unfortunately, some WS's seem to have a hard time accepting this fact as time passes after the A.....they seem to think that their current record of good behavior should somehow erase their previous sh*tty choices.

That just is never going to happen, however.

(Well, maybe with the RAREST of individuals as a BS the same level of trust might come back after YEARS....but most WS's should just reconcile themselves to the fact that they destroyed any chance of this kind of trust when they cheated)


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Dyokemm said:


> I actually think it is a great thing when couples can give this level of independence and trust to each other.
> 
> And don't think there is a thing wrong with it at all when integrity and complete respect for appropriate boundaries are maintained.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this! But it's also why most reconciliations fail as the person who cheated won't like the fact that they have years/decades of work and sacrifice to win their spouse back. May work for the short term, but in the long term the trust is wiped out never to fully return. 

I can tell you, if my spouse said "I am going hiking with Bob and we are staying at a hotel Saturday night" I'd actually be relieved. Because just the fact she even WANTED to do such a thing would mean our values are not aligned and time to throw her back. Definitely NOT a keeper.

OP, you still there?

How has this played out?


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