# Never Thought I'd Post Here



## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

After posting in the General forum, I was suggested to move here. This one's long, I'm sorry.

I never ever expected to think my husband would cheat. One of the personality traits that attracted me to him was his loyalty, actually. This is the man who, while in the Philippines on an exercise, called me sobbing because a friend had bought him a lap dance but he didn't want it and he considered it cheating.

I met my husband two years ago at a volunteer event while he was still in the military. He initially pursued me - he said "I love you" first - he proposed to me after 8 months - he wanted to get married quickly. I went along with it, because well, I loved him. He's funny, generous, caring, loyal, good-looking, and was devoted to me.

The next part's the part where I come clean - I'm not a good wife. I haven't been a good wife. I take out my frustrations on him more often than not even when he doesn't deserve it. I don't want sex as often (I have lower drive and sex is honestly painful for me half the time). I can tend towards being controlling and jealous. I didn't work as hard on those problems early in our dating/marriage as I should have. I'm trying now, and I thought he was being really patient with me, telling me when I'm being unreasonable and helping me communicate more healthily.

So. We got married. The first year wasn't easy - we went to counseling for the first time after about 9 months of marriage, then his drinking started going out of control and I'm the one that turned him in to Substance Abuse. (The drinking's much better now, closer to "normal" than "two bottles of wine/equivalent every Saturday", but he was and I think still is very mad that I "betrayed" him like that) I got pregnant last March, and miscarried in June. A week after the miscarriage, I came back to the States and he stayed in Japan until October. This was a very dark time for me; I'm sure it was for him, but he refuses to talk about it other than to say that he was sad too.

In October, we finally re-united, and he began the process for getting out of the military. I had wanted him to stay in; I knew we were accustomed to a certain level of income and I didn't want to add "financial problems" to our possible list of things to fight over. I begged him to at least do another 2 years, so he could get his Associate's and get out with a degree; he promised me he had figured out his life's calling was to be a Nurse and he would go to school for that. (It's worth noting I think that he was willing to stay in when I was pregnant)

He's not in school for his nursing degree. He decided instead on Social Work, and even that doesn't seem concrete. He keeps saying he just wants "to get his general classes out of the way". I keep trying to point out that his GI Bill is only for a limited amount of time and if he's not 100 percent on what he wants to study during that time he could end up running out before he gets a degree, but it doesn't seem to be helping.

I also started noticing a change in behavior - he became lazy, uninspired, a couch potato. His number one concern when we found an apartment (and later, were moved into government housing) was getting an internet connection to play video games. He became entitled; the car I had gotten was too difficult for him to drive (it's an SUV and we only have one vehicle) and he was too used to driving in Japan so I had to drive everywhere. He started having one or two beers right before I got home from work so that if we had to go out he could tell me "I've been drinking, I can't drive". Grocery shopping stressed him out too much, I had to do it alone. While he had done some of these things in Japan to a lesser scale, it was so much worse now. I felt like his mother, or his chauffeur, not his wife.

But, I figured, he just got out of the military, an institution he's been entrenched in for four years. A little identity crisis is to be expected. He started school and I thought that going to school would help snap him back to the man he used to be.

It didn't. We scheduled all his classes to fall on two days of the week. With the most basic of beginning courses he was struggling. I would come home from work to him "doing homework" and ignoring household chores every single day. (I mention this in my other thread for more details) I understand spending whole days on homework sometimes, I really do, but every single day?

It was around this time I found out he was still talking to an ex girlfriend. She's married, has two children, and lives in Texas; we are now in California. I was absolutely gutted - I know from talking with him previously that he'd dated her in high school, she'd cheated and gotten pregnant, and he had either seriously considered proposing or actually proposed to her. She constantly was saying inappropriate things or moaning about how they couldn't say inappropriate things because they were both married. I asked him to please cut off contact with her, as it really bothered me, and he had promised me he did.

At this point, I got really upset, and I called him on it. I had found texts, and they said that she had actually come and visit with him at least once when he went home to see his family in November. He swore that it was "only for five minutes" and "it was in front of my mom". After some thought, I decided this would not be the battle I chose to hold my ground on; I would give him some rope and some freedom and see if he hung himself from it. I'm pretty sure they're still communicating; last I heard in February her husband had been caught cheating on her with a neighbor's wife. My husband was the first one she told.

Our fighting got worse - he did really badly in school and money was still very tight. At one point I was positive we were over, and I had paperwork filled out and told him to get out, go to Texas, and stay there until he felt like he was ready to actually work on our marriage. He went to Texas for about three weeks; early into his trip to Texas he would send me texts saying that he was glad to be free of me, that I was controlling and suffocating. At the end his tone changed. The forgetfulness of his ring started right before this. In the week before he left, he was asking me odd questions - like "so should I start dating while I'm out there". I told him that until he got that final piece of paper in the mail we were still married, and that I would not be dating.

When he got back, the first couple weeks were much better. I could tell he was trying. But within the first week I found texts on his phone from another high school female friend, a model who was in the town he had considered moving to and was looking for roommates. He told her that he was "separated, but it was a good separation" and that "he and the ex (me)" were still on good terms. (When I mentioned this, he swore that he had misunderstood the difference between "separated" and "divorced" and thought we were truly divorced) I asked him not to text her again; he said okay. About a week after this, he put a lock on his phone and refuses to tell me the password.

While he was in school, he seemed to only make female friends. He would tell me about his day and his new friends and how they all were surprised he was married at 24 and told him how good-looking he is and how lucky I am. He'd complained before that he didn't have a lot of friends because of moving to California so suddenly, so I let it slide and told him I was happy. I call him "handsome" all the time, but hey, it's nice to get outside affirmation every once in a while that the rest of the world still finds you attractive I guess.

Now he's been out every day this last week, until late (10 or beyond). He's going with a male friend of mine from work. I confronted him on Wednesday about it. I told him that I was so happy he had friends and was enjoying himself but that I felt really neglected. I asked that he try to only hang out with his friends two or three days a week, starting that day, and that when he did he come home before 10 on weeknights, as I go to bed at 10 for work. 

He went out that night anyway, and every other night so far. Last night he was out until 3 in the morning. When I tried to be firm on Wednesday he said "no, that can start next week" and told me again I was being controlling. We started MC last week, and he told our counselor he found me asking him when he would be home to be controlling. I tried to explain that I just want a ballpark time (around 10, before 1), and that as his wife I do deserve to know. He disagrees.

Every time I touch on the fact that I wonder if he's cheating he will say something to the effect of "I won't live a life being wrongfully accused" or "I have done nothing wrong" or "I'm tired of feeling like a bad person (because of your accusations)". He will usually also threaten divorce because I don't trust him and he doesn't want to "play stupid games" with me. He swears up and down he isn't cheating and would never cheat.

So...that's my story. I have no solid proof of infidelity, and I feel like I must be going crazy to suspect anything. I know in the past my actions may have driven him away but ever since he got back I believe I've shown my willingness to repent, change, and try to be a better spouse. I have nothing to go on, no evidence of any transgressions. I don't want to snoop or try to hack his accounts, because I feel like that'll make things worse, and what if I find nothing and he's really just being a stupid man? I'm really torn right now. I feel like I can't sleep, I can't concentrate at work, I dread coming home. I'm not eating as much, but then again, there are times where I will binge on unhealthy foods. I'm considering IC again. I'm a mess.

Thank you for letting me post this.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Wow- that was long. 

No kids? 

Ok I think in this young marriage I would chalk it up to your "starter" marriage and end it. Bad sign for it to be on such shaky ground this early in and this man is immature and acting like a single guy. 

Who needs that? No ambition to get through school, more interested in hanging with friends, video games and gaslights you with the "controlling" word to manipulate you into letting him be free to act single?? 

Leave him in your rear view mirror.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

I just consulted my magic 8 ball, "yes" he's cheating. 

In more ways than just physical, he's cheating you out of a real enriching marriage while he fishes for other chicks.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> So...that's my story. I have no solid proof of infidelity, and I feel like I must be going crazy to suspect anything. I know in the past my actions may have driven him away but ever since he got back I believe I've shown my willingness to repent, change, and try to be a better spouse. I have nothing to go on, no evidence of any transgressions. I don't want to snoop or try to hack his accounts, because I feel like that'll make things worse, and what if I find nothing and he's really just being a stupid man?


Either way, as was pointed out, he is cheating you out of a meaningful marriage.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Even if he isn't cheating, he certainly doesn't value you or the marriage. He's off acting like a kid, instead of a grown up.

Given his behavior, if he isn't cheating , he will be.

So are you the only one bringing in money? Money that he's using to party every night?


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

Absolutely no offense is meant by this, but I really really strongly dislike the phrase "starter marriage". I've heard it before (it's thrown around quite often with military marriages) and I hate to think that we can cheapen this idea of chosing and committing to a life partner to something that we can throw away because "it was just a starter marriage, but now I've learned how to be married".

I'm in it for the long haul - it would take him putting hands on me/children, or infidelity for me to quit.

I did check his phone yesterday - he was upset but he let me do it, he claimed it was an invasion of his privacy. I found nothing.

Yes, Shaggy, I am the main breadwinner right now. When he's in school, he gets a monthly stipend that, were he single, would go towards paying rent and bills; for us, it's more of savings/fun money. I hate to call it "my money", it makes me feel like I'm being controlling if I hold all the money and only give him a monthly allowance or something like that.

Thank you for the comments about an enriching marriage; I had never thought of it that way.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> I'm in it for the long haul - it would take him putting hands on me/children, or infidelity for me to quit.


LAD,

That's an honorable philosophy, but in regards to being able to do something about his total disrespect of you; it leaves you with no options. 

I would put odds on him cheating. There are just too many red flags. Start monitoring him covertly. Put a VAR in his car. Educate yourself on the techniques. Other posters can help you.

But let's say you don't catch him right away. Are you really willing to put up with this type of disrespectful behavior? You don't have to. But, D has to be on the table or else he will feel that he can do anything he wants - because of no consequences from you. Right now he must have no fear of losing you.

And this will likely continue all the way up to the time you finally do catch him. Because it's just a matter of time.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

I won't lie - I still have a LOT of doubt about his fidelity. (I know for sure he's clean of STDs, military makes me get a yearly physical and I'm clean; so that isn't a warning sign for me) I didn't marry a dumb man, I know that he knows how to cover his tracks online, he worked in communications. I also feel a little better that I found nothing and I feel like me searching through his phone and saying out loud "I think you may be cheating on me" was an eye-opener.

We only have one vehicle, and I take it to work every day, but I am being more vigilant.

I don't know how really to give him consequences though. When he left for Texas, I had papers filled out and ready to be mailed to him in Texas. How much more dire of a consequence can I offer after that?


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> I won't lie - I still have a LOT of doubt about his fidelity. (I know for sure he's clean of STDs, military makes me get a yearly physical and I'm clean; so that isn't a warning sign for me) I didn't marry a dumb man, I know that he knows how to cover his tracks online, he worked in communications. I also feel a little better that I found nothing and I feel like me searching through his phone and saying out loud "I think you may be cheating on me" was an eye-opener.
> 
> We only have one vehicle, and I take it to work every day, but I am being more vigilant.
> 
> *I don't know how really to give him consequences though. When he left for Texas, I had papers filled out and ready to be mailed to him in Texas. * *How much more dire of a consequence can I offer after that?*


There's a difference between being "ready" to send him D papers and him actually getting served, if you're looking for a technical answer to that question. Divorce takes a while and you could still call it off even at that point. 

But the truth is if he's not remorseful, no consequence will be effective. He simply won't care. He'll continue to disrespect you. That's where you have to decide if you're willing to live with that or go through with the D.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

On privacy, he needs to rework his thinking, you don't have privacy from your own spouse, that's called hiding things.

Privacy is when you close the door to the bathroom.

What he is thinking is the kind of secrecy you have from your parents as a teen, thing is you are his wife not his mom.

All phones and online accounts should we wide open between the two of you.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Best case scenario, he's checking out. Worst case, he already has.

Best case, He's in the process of severing himself from the guilt that stopped him from cheating so far. But, he's talking himself into it, and has a new 'support structure' helping him.

Worst case, Well... you know.

FTR: I'm going with the worst case. Really sorry your here.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Well if you want truth. Here I come on cue. Invert the sexes. Sorry we get mostly cheating wives here but I am equal opportunity with my info.

Buy 2 sony ICDPX312 voice activated recorders. Best Buy sells them for like 50 bucks. DO NOT BUY THE cheapies. USE LITHIUM batteries. We have examples of 25 hour recordings using them on these sony recorders. Set bit rate to 44K and sensitivity to very high or better. Turn off the beep feature. Its on one of the menus.

Go to Walmart and buy heavy duty velcro.

Use the velcro to attach the var under her seat UP INSIDE. SECURE IT WELL!!!!!! So well even a big bump wont knock it off.

Put the second in whatever room she uses to talk in when you are not around.

Usual warning. If you hear another man get in her car STOP Listening and have a trusted friend tell you what went on. Knowing she is a cheat will kill you. Hearing her moan while another man is inside her will murder you to your very soul!!!!!! You are not strong enough to hear that. Dont try it. I know what I am talking about in this.

Play dumb husband for a bit. Dont drive her further underground! NO MORE CONFRONTS!! NEVER give up you get your intel from the VAR. You always got your info from a PI or someone saw them.

If you need clean up the recordings get Audacity. Its free from the internet. I have used it on var work for others here to remove things like engine noise. If needed, I have done var work for three men here. RDMU is the only one who has released some of the confidentiality. Read his second thread for my reliability and confidentiality. NEVER GIVE UP YOUR ELECTRONIC EVIDENCE. They were seen by a PI or something NOT your VAR!!

The ezoom GPS has been found to be easy to buy at Radio shack and useful.

Look for a burner phone. That is often why wives let the husband "see their phone"

Look for apps on her phone like words with friends. It has a non traceable texting feature.

REITERATING about the DONT LISTEN TO YOUR SPOUSE GETTING BUSY with someone else thing. The pain of hearing that will make your current pain PALE in comparison. I was on the night a man posted AS HE LISTENED to a recording of his wife fvcking another dude. It utterly destroyed him. It was a horror show. DONT DO IT. NOONE IS STRONG ENOUGH to bear that kind of direct pain.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> Absolutely no offense is meant by this, but I really really strongly dislike the phrase "starter marriage". I've heard it before (it's thrown around quite often with military marriages) and I hate to think that we can cheapen this idea of chosing and committing to a life partner to something that we can throw away because "it was just a starter marriage, but now I've learned how to be married".yum
> 
> I'm in it for the long haul - it would take him putting hands on me/children, or infidelity for me to quit.
> 
> ...


I don't understand this "invasion of privacy" thing in marriage? There are no secrets in marriage period. If you have a need for a secret there is a problem...it is as simple as that. If he has a problem with that he is not ready to be married....same for you....you should both be transparent. MC is good and yes I agree with others it sounds like he has some maturing to do. You are going to have to show him some trust....but he has broken that trust so he also needs to be reassuring you by letting you know where he is and when he will be back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

There is privacy in marriage. The problems start when one spouse doesn't want privacy, they demand secrecy. And that's always bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

He is cheating, either an EA or PA, probably both. He does not respect you, you must take drastic measures if you are going to save your marriage. How is not doing anything working so far? So sorry you are here, thank god you found this forum, listen to the advice given. Good luck to you.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

Well, last night was awesome.

Went to MC again - he claims that he's listening, and that he likes this counselor (he didn't like the last one, but to be fair, I didn't really like the last one either, I felt like the last one wanted to rush us through our allotted 8 weeks and be done). I try to gently bring up a conversation each time about the session, something like "well, how did you feel about that?"/"what did you think?". He doesn't really respond. Counselor pointed out that I may still need some work on my more controlling tendencies, which I'm trying. I need to be met halfway though, and I communicated this. (For example, I stated that for me, if I ask when he'll be home I want a ballpark time +/- 30 minutes; counselor said that might be a bit too tight of a ballpark. But for me, I'm a very exact person, if I tell you I'll be home in 7 minutes I'll pull in the drive at exactly 7 minutes, so that is conceding a lot.)

Our homework was to write each other a love letter. He didn't do it (well, he claimed to have started the letter that afternoon but I've never seen it). 

Next session is two and a half weeks from now, counselor is out of town until then.

Went out with the guys again to a bar - promised he'd be home by 11, then his phone died and he apparently couldn't come home to charge it. I left for work at 6 this morning, no sign of him. Of course I have at least four texts claiming he's sorry and he loves me and it was an accident...

I like the privacy vs. secrecy distinction, I'll bring that up at some point...my main issue right now is he's taking everything I say as just me being crazy and overly controlling, and insinuating that these are things only I think, and aren't necessarily going to be true for everybody (if that makes sense?).

I feel like I'm as transparent as I can be - I let him know my comings and goings, who I'm with and where. He's tried to mention a couple times that I ask things of him that I don't do in return, but if I don't know about it how can I do better?

A part of me wants to have an "intervention" of sorts with my other married friends, and show him that what I'm asking for isn't unreasonable, but I think that might make things worse.

For now I think I'll just lay low. Like I said, the car is with me 99 percent of the time, so no need for a VAR yet, and I have access to his phone, I need to check his e-mails...he's let me know that he wouldn't be dumb enough to leave texts out for me or Facebook messages, and since he knows I'm serious about my suspicions I'm sure he's getting more careful. Thank you weightlifter for pointing out Words with Friends, I know about the texting on there but hadn't even thought of it as a tool.

He uses the app Voxer a lot. Is there any way for me to access the recordings?

I feel like I must be going crazy, everything makes me paranoid now. Every text he gets, every time he wants to go to another room, every time I wake up and he's not there. At this point I almost want to catch him, just to end the paranoia and stress.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> Went out with the guys again to a bar - promised he'd be home by 11, then his phone died and he apparently couldn't come home to charge it. I left for work at 6 this morning, no sign of him. Of course I have at least four texts claiming he's sorry and he loves me and *it was an accident*...


An accident. Right.

The longer you put up with this foolishness the more hopeless your situation becomes.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

I don't believe it for a second, LOL. I just...have nothing to call him on yet. I guess my thinking is, if he wants to embarrass and hurt me like this, fine, I'll give him twice as good in return. I'll make him wish he had never decided to cross me.

And I'm stubborn. I don't want to give up. I made my future with him in it, and I still want him there.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Hoosier said:


> He is cheating, either an EA or PA, probably both. He does not respect you, you must take drastic measures if you are going to save your marriage. How is not doing anything working so far? So sorry you are here, thank god you found this forum, listen to the advice given. Good luck to you.


They seem not to respect each other, sadly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

He is not being accountable or responsible. Every time that he makes a "mistake" and you let go on he is going to continue.

Your counselor is not a real great one if he states that 30 minutes plus or minus is too tight a time line.

With the technology today if I cannot be where I am suppose to be at the time I said I call ahead.

I need to know what service does your husband use for his cell phone, it seems to be the same service that many WS?


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

MattMatt, how am I not respecting my husband?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I know it's hard to read things written online. But seriously if I'm messing up somehow, if I'm disrespecting him, I want to know what I'm doing so I can make it right.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> And I'm stubborn. I don't want to give up. I made my future with him in it, and I still want him there.


It doesn't matter how stubborn or determined you are. It takes two. Not @ 50/50 either. 100/100. Your not close right now.


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## beautiful_day (Mar 28, 2013)

Daisy, you need to do something that is very hard for a person with a history of control issues to do ...

You need to just let him go


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

I think you make a good point, b_d. It's something so against my nature that it physically hurts me to think about. You too, Pit. I can't keep fighting forever if I'm the only one fighting.

I'm going to stay with a friend for a while I think, and figure out what I want and need. I don't even know anymore. I want to make things work, but if you take that away, why do I want that so badly? I need to see where my head is I think, and separate myself from this situation.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

She deserves the truth. Wtf is he doing all effing night?


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

I'm staying with a friend. I told her I only plan on maybe a week, but she's open to however long this takes.

He's threatening me with leaving - "if you're gone for a whole week I may not be here when you get home", "it's fine if you're gone for a few days but any longer and I won't be home when you get back". He also has repeated that he isn't cheating and me thinking/saying that pisses him off.

I'm still confused, but a night away has done some good. Feel a little stronger, a little more in control and back to "me". Hopefully at the end of all this I'll be able to get some good answers, whether they mean D or not.

I've done this before though; the first day he's mad and threatens me, then there's silence for maybe 12-24 hours, then he's blowing my phone up. Last time it scared me so much that I did head home when he started calling so much; he was threatening to leave and I was afraid that maybe I was in the wrong and I would screw our relationship up. We'll see what happens this time.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Bottom line: where in his priorities in life are you and the marriage.


I can tell you they aren't #1 or even 2.

Which would he be willingly to give up and never have again: a night out alone with his biddies, or a night with you?

We both know the answer.

He's putting hanging out and partying as his top priority in his life. It's like he is a teenager.

All the IC and MC in the world isn't going to change his desires in life.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

You're right Shaggy. I don't feel like a priority. And it's very possible that he's already emotionally checked out and our marriage can't be saved. But I have to try. This is my last-ditch effort to help him wake up.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Good luck, LAD. I've been following the thread and you've been getting, and listening to, good advice. I'm praying that your torment ends, whichever way that goes.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> Our homework was to write each other a love letter. He didn't do it (well, he claimed to have started the letter that afternoon but I've never seen it).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WARNING: long reply. Disclaimer on length of post and possible boredom!

I have separated some of your points to answer them as I see them, as I believe they are important. Pertinent. You are absolutely in denial about the state of your marriage...sorry to be so blunt. He is walking like a duck, and quacking like a duck. Believe his behaviour, not his words that tell you he is a swan. He is absolutely no swan!

Even if he wasn't cheating on you (I believe he is), he is absolutely a neglectful partner and husband. He treats you like dirt, and you are accepting it. You give him no reason to change. You are not standing up for yourself and you are not showing or demanding that you deserve better. I know it is difficult when you are in the middle of it, but you need to have some boundaries. Your boundaries of being treated properly and decently by others. And accepting nothing less. He is manipulating you to believe that his bad behaviour is all in your head. You, unfortunately, are believing it. This is not unusual. This is classic behaviour. On your part and his. 

Answers to the points:

You have not seen the love letter because he hasn't written it. 

His phone 'died' at 11pm, and yet you have 4 texts by 6am. Where was he? BTW, the texts are meaningless, all they are are displays of his guilty feelings. He knows he is behaving badly, that is why he sent you those guilt induced texts.

Of course you are crazy and controlling. That is manipulation speak for 'Dont look at my bad behaviour, look at you', you who is doing nothing wrong. Of course you are the only person in the world who would be bothered by this behaviour. That means you are crazy! It is you that needs help. If he can divert the issue, it takes the light off him. If he can work you so you believe this, he will eventually be able to do what he likes, when he likes, with no recrimination other than you getting counselling to learn how to be treated like a doormat. Happily. All classic manipulative behaviour. Diversion, diversion, diversion. If it is ALL your fault, then it ain't his! ...BTW, this is classic cheater behaviour. Absolutely down to each last bit.

You are being transparent while he is not. Why? He is not getting it. Stop. Give up trying to show him how you want him to act. Tell him. If he ignores, which he is, then what are you gonna do about it? Nothing? If nothing, then you have to stop complaining. If you find his behaviour unacceptable, let him know in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS.

As above with intervention of married friends. You know he is doing wrong, he knows. And believe me, he does. People who manipulate know exactly what they are doing. All this will do, at best, is cause him to tell you you have crazy friends also. Stop trying to change him, he doesn't want it. Time for action on your part. Accept his bad behaviour or deal with it....the only person you can control is you, therefore, remove yourself from someone who clearly cares ZERO for you. He is going through the motions...using words only, no actions, to show he 'cares'. He doesn't care. A bit of shock and awe is needed....divorce I would suggest.

Lay low by all means, but snoop all you can while doing it. You will find stuff if you are good enough and careful enough.

He has let you know he is not dumb enough to leave FB messages or texts out! Is this for real??!! This is total admission of guilt. 100%. I would start trying to hack his FB 1st....keylogger. Or guess passwords. Or try and sneaky peek what he types as he does it. Educated guesses. 

I don't know what Voxer is, but if there is an app, there are ways to get in. Try and work out his phone password. Look at where he types. Then get at it while he sleeps. Don't do up to the maximum number of tries though and lock the keypad. Or try to access it online or on your phone with his email address...you need the password though.

As for being crazy, of course you feel it. He is making you that way, and by allowing his behaviour you are enabling him. Stop! And stop financing his behaviour too...that is the most ridiculous thing in ALL of this. Just stop! Put your foot down. You are paranoid with every move he makes because every move and action is suspicious. Nothing more. Once you accept this, and stop questioning yourself, and stop allowing him to smack you with the controlling label every time you address his behaviour, then you will begin to see more clearly. 

DON'T GET PREGNANT!

Good luck.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

One more point, when he threatens you with leaving, another manipulative tactic. Tell him ok, and start to help pack his bags with him. See what he does then. I bet he backtracks. I have had all that that you describe. Manipulation heaven. Me that's crazy, paranoid, threats to leave, all problems in 'Remains' world, I am a freak, blah blah. Oh, guess what, it was all to cover up and divert his cheating.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

Wow, Remains. That's a lot for me to take in.

First, thank you to all the posters so far for helping me feel I'm not as crazy. You get called controlling and a nag and crazy too much and eventually you start to think that about yourself. I'm very sensitive to the controlling label because I CAN be controlling; now I'm starting to see that maybe it isn't me being controlling, but him using my guilty conscience against me.

The story is he went back to his friend's house around 11 and charged it there. But...if his phone died, and it was nearly 11 anyways (on a Wednesday for crying out loud!)...why not just come home? It's not like we don't have multiple phone chargers.

He couldn't answer that question.

My husband worked communications while he was active duty. He knows his way around security for his stuff. I do think that when and if I go home to try and R I will place keyloggers on the computer...I'm good with technology, just not as good as he is.

Voxer is a "walkie-talkie" app; it's designed to send short voice messages back and forth to users of the program.

He doesn't have access to my bank account. That's the one point I've stood firm on, partially because of this. And when I get paid next week I fully expect him to be begging me to come home.

It was an eye-opener this morning, though...I woke up early and wasn't exhausted and dreading waking up...I was able to get up earlier than I have in months (!) and get ready for my day.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

He's contacting me - little "feeler" e-mails, things like "hi" and "how's your day".

Is it rude if I ignore these? I don't want it to become yet another thing included in our fights, him being able to say "well, you don't communicate with me, I tried to talk to you and you ignored me".


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

The OP's original post looks very much like a map of my marriage and the way it went down over the years.

Read my story... then buy: "Men Who Can't Love" by Steven Carter and Julia Sokol. You will recognize your husband in there. The bahaviors, patterns, timelines of change, etc.

Emotionall unavailable and commitment phobic. They come on strong and fast in the beginning. When REAL life settles in, ie: after the honeymoon period of a marriage, it all starts to go downhill.

The contacting other women, need for "privacy" (= hiding his cheating) and everything else you have described I have been through with my STBXH.

Take it from me, nip it in the bud right now. Leave and file papers if you have to, or you will be in the same boat I am.

Divorcing a man who had been cheating for years and got another woman pregnant because I "trusted him".

Get out NOW.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

LAD. I provide exact intel gathering info including model numbers and where to find them.

This ismy spec here. Im good at it but cant go to best buy for you.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

Thank you for the information, weightlifter, I just reviewed your post. I'm not sure what to do about finding a keylogger, but I'm sure there's something posted here; I feel like from knowing him I'm more likely to catch him on the computer than with a voice recording, but I'm willing to try anything.

Being apart right now is hurting so much though. I hate the thought that I'm hurting him, or making this worse. Or maybe my actions will end this relationship with a man that, despite his issues, I still love.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

Well. What a weekend.

He started texting nonstop telling me I was disrespecting him and not thinking of his feelings. First he said I was going home in a week and if I wasn't he would leave me. I stood firm that we both had serious thinking to do and I wasn't coming home just to have this happen again. I don't want to set a timeline on my mental wellbeing. By Saturday (yesterday) it had changed to "you will be home by Tuesday or I will leave". Again I told him the same thing. Late last night it became "I'm flying out on Monday, screw this", then "I'm leaving tomorrow at noon if you don't come home". I've also been told that I abandoned him when he needed me most, that I don't care about him, and that when he leaves its because I drove him away. He said that I've become an old maid (I'm 23!) and I'm not fun anymore.

I've been gone since Thursday after work; he hasn't seen me since Wednesday afternoon, because of his night out. It's been barely over 48 hours. He insists I've been gone forever.

At this point, I have told him if he truly feels that leaving is the best course of action I respect that choice and if he is leaving to take everything he wants to keep with him. I'm just emotionally destroyed. He flat out told me he does not respect me. I feel like my eyes have been opened to how controlling this marriage is and how much he manipulates me.

He has never once apologized. He has not admitted guilt. He continues to blame me for our problems.

Whether he leaves or not, I will insist on IC before we R. He will not live with me for a while, but rather he will attempt to woo me again. I will date him. It is now clear that he has some issues that need to be addressed before we can even attempt MC and fixing our marriage. As for infidelity, I still don't know and honestly don't care at this point. He's said and done so many other things that would just be icing on this whole messed up cake.

_Posted via *Topify* using Android_


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

LAD you have to be firm. 
"Well done"
Yes it hurts he is a ticking affair bomb.


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## newlife94 (Aug 11, 2011)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> Well. What a weekend.
> 
> He started texting nonstop telling me I was disrespecting him and not thinking of his feelings. First he said I was going home in a week and if I wasn't he would leave me. I stood firm that we both had serious thinking to do and I wasn't coming home just to have this happen again. I don't want to set a timeline on my mental wellbeing. By Saturday (yesterday) it had changed to "you will be home by Tuesday or I will leave". Again I told him the same thing. Late last night it became "I'm flying out on Monday, screw this", then "I'm leaving tomorrow at noon if you don't come home". I've also been told that I abandoned him when he needed me most, that I don't care about him, and that when he leaves its because I drove him away. He said that I've become an old maid (I'm 23!) and I'm not fun anymore.
> 
> ...


He is trying to manipulate you because the longer you are gone, you get your own voice. If you come back, he can blind you into trusting him again. You have to be willing to let him go- to save you. I think of it like this... you are standing on a cliff, trying to save him and your marriage and he is trying to pull you over. Either cut the rope and save yourself, or let him take you over with him. He wants to take you to a place where you feel awful about yourself and he can be a cake eater. The gaslighting thing was done to me.. it is horrible. 

My H was trying to make me think I was controlling and irrational- that I was imagining things that were not there. WOW, he did not see what was coming when I got my strength back.. and that POSOW would not dare try to communicate with him again. We are working on R, but let me tell you... there is NO WAY we would be if it were not for him doing ALL of the heavy lifting. Even now a year and a half into R, I have mentioned leaving- he knows I am ok with going. I am not scared of being alone, actually wonder how much happier I would be without all of this. I do love him, but he did the ultimate betrayal and it was not a one time, oops I was drunk mistake. 

Don't let him talk you out of your values!!!! Stand your ground and make him respect you or let him walk. Good luck


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

I laid down my rules for R yesterday:
- He gets IC for his control issues and to learn how to handle conflict
- He moves out, either to a "room for rent" or to stay with a friend for a couple months
- We date. Our marriage as it was has died, and if we are to stay together I feel like we have to "start over" at this point.

I'm still at my friend's house, and plan on staying there at least through the weekend. She said that she and her husband are fine with up to a month, and we can re-consider after that/figure out a new arrangement. I'm just grateful that she's being so understanding and okay with me being an unexpected extended-stay houseguest. I have told him I won't even consider going back to our house until he has actually done some of the things on my list (set up counseling, gotten himself a place to stay).

He seemed accepting of my conditions, saying he would look into it today (Monday) and that he didn't want to pressure me and I should take as long as I need to heal. I was stupid at this point, I let my guard down. I was just surprised he was being so reasonable...

And he tried to pick another fight in the evening right as I was going to bed! I said I would talk with him in the morning about the issue that he brought up, and when he refused to listen I said I was going to sleep and put my phone on Airplane Mode (no service). 

I woke up this morning to no less than 6 messages telling me that he couldn't live with my restrictions, I was resorting to "excuses" instead of addressing issues, and that he was "tired of this" and was done because he had "tried". All this has happened within maybe at most 12 hours.

So this morning I addressed the argument he brought up last night (I did promise I would) and I re-issued my needs. I let him know that while I want to fix us I deserve a partner who won't treat me the way he has and if he cannot deliver I can and will find someone who can.

Looking up and putting the 180 into practice today.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

He's claiming that I don't meet his needs. I realize now that contact was dumb, I was weak, and have sent a NC.

One of the things he was hesitant on was getting IC - he said he didn't want to unless I did. I do have issues I've seen IC for in the past, and I feel like I've made a ton of progress, but I went ahead and got myself into a couple of therapy groups, one for meditation and one for stress/anxiety management.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Steel yourself LAD.
I smell A if not now soon
I smell D at some point. Sorry I call em as I see them.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

I'm considering asking him for NC with his ex who he's still close to. But at the same time, there's so much other sh!t going on I feel like that's minor and can wait.

I'm so confused. One moment I'm so ANGRY then I'm just sad and overwhelmingly lonely. I'm scared. I'm worried. I'm embarrassed. I'm frustrated. But I also feel so much stronger than I have in a long time. I'm remembering that I am a strong woman and I am a FUN woman, no matter what he's been telling me.

I still really want R. I would rather not be divorced by 24. But I feel okay about things now. I've presented my list of needs, and told him that if he cannot meet that list I will leave. And I'm starting to really believe that I'll have the strength to follow through on that.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

He says now he's leaving me. I'm about 95% sure it's a manipulative tactic, as he is supposed to start school in a week. There's no way he'd be able to get reimbursed for the classes or probably switch to another school this late in the game.

I'm mostly just hurt. I've asked for two things and he's not willing to do them. But now at least I know where I stand with him in this relationship.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

LAD. If you R i see a lifetime of heartache and regret.

If you want to go out in style.
download metallica, king nothing from youtube.
Download vlc player. Its free.
Strip out the video.
Remove the lyrics before "be careful"
Remove the lyrics after" just might get it"
Send the resulting file on a usb drive along with d papers.

From the great philosophers metallica
Be careful what you wish
Be careful what you say
Be careful what you wish
You may regret it.
Be careful what you wish.
You just might get it.

Sorry. All i see in your r path is betrayal.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

He is kind of following the script that all cheaters do - except for the one fact that he sounds like a TOTAL NUTTER.

My advice? Run for the hills. This guy will make your life a total misery.

The danger point is if he decides to go along with you for the next few months in order to save what he clearly sees as a Really Good Deal for him. Within 6 months, he will be back to doing the same.

I would bet £1,000 that, within that time, he will ask for children or something to tie you to him.

Please, read my story and other posts (I am still with my ex wife as I believe in family more, even, than marriage) - I rarely counsel leaving a marriage without further ado - but this guy is a pork pie short of a picnic.

Run, Forest, Run.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> He's contacting me - little "feeler" e-mails, things like "hi" and "how's your day".
> 
> Is it rude if I ignore these? I don't want it to become yet another thing included in our fights, him being able to say "well, you don't communicate with me, I tried to talk to you and you ignored me".


Rude? Perhaps. Sensible to ignore them? Yep.

And Chris is right. The chap's an absolute nutter. You're not running away, just making a strategic withdrawal.:smthumbup:


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Shes 24 and I bet if she D then went back to dating... Given her experience...

Her choice of husband 2.0 would be effing AWESOME.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

23, WL. H is 6 months older than me. And thank you for the flattery!

I've got the paperwork completed and sitting on my computer. He says he's flying out on Friday to go home. I've told him that if he does to take whatever he wants to keep, everything in the house is mine. Soon as he gets on that flight the paperwork will be sent and his cell phone will be cut off. And I already have plans to go out with friends on Friday and party it up


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

LAD 
Thumbs up from well probably almost everyone.

Just look forward to all those new firsts on Husband v2.0 after you heal.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Daisy, the difference between your 1st post on this thread and your last is amazing. Inspiring. Well done! Well done on beginning to see clearly.

I am glad you are now starting to see through him, to see his manipulative words for what they are. That the words, all of them, have no meaning in and of themselves, the meaning they hold is the hidden meaning and the intention of getting the end result. Which is of course to have you bow down to all his wants and needs while forgetting you have any of your own, and any you have you don't deserve. Inherently selfish. All hot air blowing with no substance. 

Keep it up! Keep reading up on manipulative behaviour and projection. It will be invaluable knowledge throughout your whole life.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

Went out last night. A friend of mine is hosting a couple of Swiss girls at her house, and decided the most American experience for them would be to visit a country bar. It made getting up for work so painful this morning but I had a lot of fun.

Of course my husband has to message me while I'm out. He's supposedly cancelled his flight on Friday and wants to work on things. He sent me a goodnight text and said he loves me. I know he was out drinking last night, and this is probably just alcohol and manipulation.

I know he hasn't done any of the hard work to start to R. So why does it bother me so much???


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> I know he hasn't done any of the hard work to start to R. So why does it bother me so much???


He's still trying to manipulate you to avoid consequences. Stick to your guns.

Why does it bother you? Because you love him; and it hurts. But you have to do this for you.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

I should just stop giving in and contacting him...

He started getting ridiculous - he said he would call counseling, but wouldn't move out because he had no place to go. When I mentioned friends in the area or possibly renting a place, he said "well guess I'll just live on the streets outside the local Wal-Mart then". 

I know that was blatant manipulation, and called him on it; I said he's a smart man, and can figure out a way to make things work. He then changed the subject to how he doesn't have money and he wants a car so that he can take me on dates. Really?! ONE car payment is enough for me! He has his license, he can drive a friend's car or drive my vehicle if he needs to.

I stood firm on my two conditions, and he whipped out his last (and hardest to ignore) manipulations:
1. He'll never listen to our song, the song we first danced to, the same way again
2. If I won't come back just because he won't move out I don't love him

He's swearing that he'll be a totally new person, and just wants to go out tonight to talk in person, because that's so much easier.

Geez...and my head keeps screaming I need to just cut this off and end this drama, but my heart won't listen. Stupid human emotions.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> 1. He'll never listen to our song, the song we first danced to, the same way again



That's a beauty.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Well done, stand firm! 

He is grasping at straws now. The song, the car and dates, all to make you feel guilt. And for what? Who has some wrong? 

He didn't cancel his flight...there was no flight to cancel. Straws. And it didn't work. All to make you feel guilt. And to be sorry. But again, sorry for what? 

He has done wrong. If he cared for you, if he wanted you, it would be your straws he would be grasping for. If he really loved you, he would jump on your offer without hesitation. 

He wants the security of being with you but the freedom to be single. He doesn't want you (sorry, it doesn't look like he does), he just wants to be looked after. Anyone would do. And so effort and hard work doesn't come into it. The effort and hard work is all yours. And he is doing his damndest to get you back on board. 

If he really wanted you he would take your offer. No hesitation.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

P.s. He wants to talk in person so he can schmooze you. That is it. So he can press all the right buttons and get you falling for him and his waffle again. Beware.


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## ne9907 (Jul 17, 2013)

I am so sorry to hear about your marriage.
That was me 14 years ago, my husband and I both were Army. 
When he got out he acted almost exactly like your husband is acting, except that he did graduate from university.
Have you looked into PTSD? Could your husband have it?
My husband would also accuse me of being controlling and overly
jealous.
I feel that If we had taken Marriage counseling, we would not be divorcing.
My husband suffers from PTSD and opposition defiance, we found out too late, when neither one of us wanted to stay in the marriage anymore. I think I have abandonment issues (??), we shall see when I see a therapist.



> So...that's my story. I have no solid proof of infidelity, and I feel like I must be going crazy to suspect anything. I know in the past my actions may have driven him away but ever since he got back I believe I've shown my willingness to repent, change, and try to be a better spouse. I have nothing to go on, no evidence of any transgressions. I don't want to snoop or try to hack his accounts, because I feel like that'll make things worse, and what if I find nothing and he's really just being a stupid man? I'm really torn right now. I feel like I can't sleep, I can't concentrate at work, I dread coming home. I'm not eating as much, but then again, there are times where I will binge on unhealthy foods. I'm considering IC again. I'm a mess.


the uncertainty of not knowing if he was faithful drove me crazy! Still does sometimes, which is one of the reason we decided to end our marriage. He grew tired of my accusations (even thou he never changed his ways) and I grew tired of feeling crazy.
BUt if you truly want to save your marriage, go to counseling.
He may be suffering from PTSD 
Good LUck!!!


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## wcd6891 (Aug 1, 2013)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> I'm staying with a friend. I told her I only plan on maybe a week, but she's open to however long this takes.
> 
> He's threatening me with leaving - "if you're gone for a whole week I may not be here when you get home", "it's fine if you're gone for a few days but any longer and I won't be home when you get back". He also has repeated that he isn't cheating and me thinking/saying that pisses him off.
> 
> ...


Oh my goodness, if this doesn't sound like my husband. Let me tell you something Daisy coming from a woman that has been at my parents house for a month now....girl move on with your life. I have battling emotions every hour on the hour but Im not going to let him know that. Follow this link Rebuilding Marriage After Infidelity Discussion: the 180 - DailyStrength that someone told me about it will really help you...I am doing it now and feeling so much better just after 6 hours. I cant wait to see what happens a week from now. Seems like you are some what like me..I have been stubborn in my marriage but when you two knew that this is exactly what you wanted...he should have been doing what you needed to be happy in the marriage and vice versa but he wants to sell you wolf tickets (as the old people say). If he is not at your home when you get back its because he didn't want to be and that will be your answer right there. Best of luck to you honey.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

If you bring PTSD up, he will have it.

If you bring African Falling Down sickness, I bet he'll have that too.

He's liar and will do anything to keep his cushy number - his paycheck.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

He contacted my mother last night, asking her what to do. I think he was hoping she'd tell him my favorite flower or something so that he could buy his way out of the doghouse. Instead, she basically said "do what your wife told you to do, dumbass" (in much nicer words, of course).

So now he's swearing he'll find a place and start counseling, but I have to wait until he has money. My plan is to give him until next Tuesday to make some calls and get started on things. If he hasn't, he has until that Friday to either sh!t or get off the pot. I can't and won't wait forever.

It should not take a week to make a couple phone calls and find a room for rent or a friend willing to take you in. And we're military, individual and couple counseling is offered for free and the local counseling office is a mile from our house.

In the meantime, he's amped the charm up to an 11 and is trying very hard to get me to either go on a date or come home. I'm over the games.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Stronger by the minute. Brilliant! If you can keep this up you will find a strong relationship...if he wants that...come out the other side. Well done.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Wow LAD. Lok where you startedlook where you are now.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

Well, now we start the long and slow road to R...

He will be calling counseling today; I guess he spoke with a hotline last week but will be making an appointment as well. He will move into a place in two weeks; originally it was longer but I let him know that was unacceptable and he agreed to my new terms. 

The reason I gave was that I couldn't inconvenience my friends forever, but really I would rather avoid us getting into a "holding pattern" where he's comfortable. Right now he has our house, with food in it and our dogs and internet and tv. I'm the one that has had to make uncomfortable changes so far. No more.

I'm still at my friend's house, and she has told me I can stay as long as needed (of course he doesn't know this).

I think it was pretty powerful for him yesterday to have me look dead in his eyes and say "if you do not follow through I will leave you". No emotion, no tears, just straight telling him that.

I feel bad, I saw him yesterday and we spent a little while together but I didn't feel anything. We held hands, he kissed me, he said I love you, but I didn't really feel anything. I'm a little worried about what that means but I know that will take some time for me to figure out.

Thank you, again, for all the support and the advice here. Every time I had a weak moment I would remember something somebody typed on this thread and that helped keep me strong and get on my feet.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> I feel bad, I saw him yesterday and we spent a little while together but I didn't feel anything. We held hands, he kissed me, he said I love you, but I didn't really feel anything. I'm a little worried about what that means but I know that will take some time for me to figure out.


Wow. I know how that one feels. She hugs me. I feel nothing. I want to feel something but I do not. Mine only had an EA but we have a ton of other stuff.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> Well, now we start the long and slow road to R...
> 
> He will be calling counseling today; I guess he spoke with a hotline last week but will be making an appointment as well. He will move into a place in two weeks; originally it was longer but I let him know that was unacceptable and he agreed to my new terms.
> 
> ...


Sorry, No R please, 

It's like Chris said:



> He is kind of following the script that all cheaters do - except for the one fact that he sounds like a TOTAL NUTTER.
> 
> My advice? Run for the hills. This guy will make your life a total misery.
> 
> ...


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

*The next part's the part where I come clean - I'm not a good wife. I haven't been a good wife. I take out my frustrations on him more often than not even when he doesn't deserve it. I don't want sex as often (I have lower drive and sex is honestly painful for me half the time). I can tend towards being controlling and jealous. I didn't work as hard on those problems early in our dating/marriage as I should have. I'm trying now, and I thought he was being really patient with me, telling me when I'm being unreasonable and helping me communicate more healthily.*

I cannot agree with everything everybody else seems to be saying here. You come across as supremely manipulative and controlling and while I think that he has some issues, I cannot say that he is to blame here. I am just curious why others cannot see this.:scratchhead:


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> *The next part's the part where I come clean - I'm not a good wife. I haven't been a good wife. I take out my frustrations on him more often than not even when he doesn't deserve it. I don't want sex as often (I have lower drive and sex is honestly painful for me half the time). I can tend towards being controlling and jealous. I didn't work as hard on those problems early in our dating/marriage as I should have. I'm trying now, and I thought he was being really patient with me, telling me when I'm being unreasonable and helping me communicate more healthily.*
> 
> I cannot agree with everything everybody else seems to be saying here. You come across as supremely manipulative and controlling and while I think that he has some issues, I cannot say that he is to blame here. I am just curious why others cannot see this.:scratchhead:


Because many on here:

1) Live in the real world
2) Have been betrayed and know the script they all follow


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

I just wonder if he had posted here first and told his side of the story, what advice he would have been given.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

lamancha, you make a good point. I do have controlling tendencies. I have been manipulative in the past. Through IC and through work on my part I am improving, I think. I recognize and know these parts of my personality, and I am trying to fix them.

My main frustration is I'm trying to change and it's hard to want to change when my husband does not from what I can see.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> I just wonder if he had posted here first and told his side of the story, what advice he would have been given.


We don't really know his side of the story - we just know what OP has told us - but from what we do know, I would guesstimate that we would tell him that her behavior isn't healthy and that he should be honest with her about his feelings about it & to seek counseling. I don't think we would tell him to party every night with his friends, stay out all night, and have inappropriate communications with other women.

There are always different sides to an issue, but independent of what OP has done, his behavior is not marriage-worthy, in my opinion.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

Taking the papers down to the lawyers. Sometimes I wish I was civilian, it would be easier to file.

I love him and I want to fix our marriage, but last night we tried a "double date" (dinner and board games at a friend's house) and it went horrendously. For all the change he swore to me he'd made he acted exactly like he had before - offensive, completely disrespectful of me and my personal space, and self-righteous and manipulative. 

I'm starting to feel like the things I'm asking him to do are things that maybe he can't do for me...


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

I wonder if this is more about when you will be ready to let him go?

He is clearly an ass and that clearly will not change. He should have been nigh on perfect for you last night, but he chose not to be.

I can't see how or why my original advice might change: leave him. He is as mad as a box of frogs and one might wonder if he is also dumber than a bag of hammers.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

LoveAtDaisys said:


> Taking the papers down to the lawyers. Sometimes I wish I was civilian, it would be easier to file.
> 
> I love him and I want to fix our marriage, but last night we tried a "double date" (dinner and board games at a friend's house) and it went horrendously. For all the change he swore to me he'd made he acted exactly like he had before - offensive, completely disrespectful of me and my personal space, and self-righteous and manipulative.
> 
> I'm starting to feel like the things I'm asking him to do are things that maybe he can't do for me...


Your second enlightenment....

Beware, most people don't get even one before it is too late.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

Yesterday was bad. 

He was fine in the morning, but for some reason in the afternoon he exploded at me. (I think he may have been drinking) He suddenly was "pissed off" that I'm staying with a friend and have the car and "abandoned" him. He has no income right now, but the house was fully stocked with food when I left and I got him some more to supplement last week as well. When I pointed out that him yelling at me was NOT acceptable then he was sad because of the miscarriage and the loss of his niece within the last two years...both things I've asked him about multiple times and he said over and over didn't affect him.

I got angry when he implied I don't understand the pain of losing a child. A$$hole, you didn't have fvcking contractions so bad you were puking. You weren't alone and positive you were dying because it hurt so bad and maybe dying wouldn't hurt that much. You didn't have to physically go through the aftermath and the nasty stuff the doctor forgot to mention about miscarrying. You didn't re-live that pain every night when you fell asleep. I understand where he is probably better than he does.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It sounds like he will do or say anything to keep you drawn in and then be his old a-hole self once he has you safely on board again. He freaks out when he doesn't have control of your situation. Keep control of your own life. Don't let him guilt or manipulate you. Keep telling yourself that it's your life to live & you have choices. His choices are not healthy and will only cause you more pain.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

I didn't think this would work, but I have a good update now.

He went to IC last Wednesday, and WOW what a turn-around. He's now fully supportive of me being at my friend's place, and has been acting more and more like the man I dated/originally married. Instead of just telling me he'll change, like he has the last few weeks, he's actually making these changes.

It's still not perfect, but it's so much better than he has been. I'm still hesitant, obviously, and I'm not back at our home yet, but it's a start. A part of me is still terrified of what you write of, Dame, that he's going to go back to the way he was after I let my guard down. So far though he's proving me wrong, so fingers crossed.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

It's easy to be nice for a few days. A life time is... a long time ...

Good luck.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

MC this last week was really helpful I think. He FINALLY seemed to have a breakthrough on the fact that his tone and his words have meaning. I was able to voice some long-held resentments and we were able to talk about them. Our counselor wants to see us again next week, so that's good.

We're trying a "consequence jar" and I'm trying really hard to compromise on the Honey-Do list. Instead of asking him to do two or three things every single day, we'll both make each other a list of x items on Sunday and we have until Friday to complete our list. Any item we don't complete by Friday, we have to pay up. (This is really difficult for me, by the way!)

Still not at home. Trying a "date night" on Saturday. We'll see how it goes. I'm cautiously optimistic.


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