# Sadness, humiliation, and disbelief



## drifting on

So Sunday evening we went to my sister in laws home. Mother in law and several teen aged cousins as well. My wife had a very bad day with the boys as they were talking back and not listening. I had to work that day so I came after. One of the cousins who is nine years old the boys adore. This cousin has been somewhat of a bad influence, telling the boys to say no and to run when called are just two examples. Their time with this cousin is limited and monitored since she tells the boys to do wrong. 

During dinner one of the boys refused to eat. My wife had mentioned he would get nothing else to eat that night if he didn't eat dinner. He talked back to my wife and she told him he would go in z time out if he continued. A few minutes later he talked back again and I told my wife I would take care of it. I got up and had him stand in the corner twenty feet away from the table. His brother was able to see his nine year old cousin laugh because his brother was in trouble. The nine year old actually left the table because she was about to laugh out loud.

The one standing in the corner kept turning around in the corner to watch everyone. I turned him back around and whispered in his ear. At this point he began to cry. About a minute later my wife slammed her hand on the table. She then proceeded to scream at me that I should be considerate to everyone else and taken him upstairs. Immediately I felt disrespected, humiliated, in disbelief as she screamed. 

A thought came to my mind to say, your affair was enough disrespect to me, don't ever speak to me in that manner again. Although I didn't say that, I walked outside to calm down. When we got home that evening we put the kids to bed and my wife asked to talk. I explained calmly how and what I felt. I then told her I was too angry to talk about the incident that night. 

My wife couldn't let it go and apologized, I again told her how I felt and that I could not talk tonight. On Monday night I saw my therapist and discussed this with her. My therapist was shocked at my wife's behavior, but completely understands how I have felt about this. My therapist asked if I was strong enough to live with a wife who could and will disrespect myself. She then asked if I loved her enough to wait while she works on disrespect in therapy. My wife is very strong willed and up until now I saw that as good, however right now it has only caused me pain and sadness. 

Almost two and a half years into reconciliation, all the hard work both of us have done, and no idea what is right from here. At the moment my emotions have been racing. I told my wife I am undecided, if she deems that unfair she can choose what she likes. It is unfair of me to expect her to wait while I am undecided, and I told her this, but as of right now I simply can't work on reconciliation and myself until I have come to a decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karole

So very sorry Drifting ............after your wife's outburst, you should have put her nose in the corner as well!


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## GuyInColorado

My ex wife was similar. She would disrespect me in front of others. I never stood up for myself because I wanted to keep everything together and not have drama. I was a wimp. I finally had enough and told everyone how unhappy I was and how our marriage was a sham. Then I left and started the divorce procedures. I'm sure you'll do the same eventually after you've had enough. From your posts, you seem soft spoken and beta. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression you give. If she ever does that again, you need to stand up for yourself right there. You can't be treated like that again.


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## farsidejunky

DO:

Is there more to this story? The damage from the affair is obvious. Two and half years later, to suddenly realize you are no longer in this thing because an incident of disrespect, has the air of something that has perhaps been building, not just a sudden onset.

What else has been happening?


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## 5Creed

I absolutely hate this for you drifting on! I only wish you strength in whatever you decide to do and make sure you are taking care of yourself right now. I am truly sorry that she called you out like that in front of people. So hurtful and you have every right to feel like you do. It doesn't help things at all. Again; I am just sorry.


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## GuyInColorado

farsidejunky said:


> DO:
> 
> Is there more to this story? The damage from the affair is obvious. Two and half years later, to suddenly realize you are no longer in this thing because an incident of disrespect has the air of something that has perhaps been building, not just a sudden onset.
> 
> What else has been happening?


In a nutshell, his wife had an affair and got pregnant with twins with her affair partner. DO was never able to have kids with his wife. He is raising the twins as his own and reconciled.


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## sokillme

drifting on said:


> So Sunday evening we went to my sister in laws home. Mother in law and several teen aged cousins as well. My wife had a very bad day with the boys as they were talking back and not listening. I had to work that day so I came after. One of the cousins who is nine years old the boys adore. This cousin has been somewhat of a bad influence, telling the boys to say no and to run when called are just two examples. Their time with this cousin is limited and monitored since she tells the boys to do wrong.
> 
> During dinner one of the boys refused to eat. My wife had mentioned he would get nothing else to eat that night if he didn't eat dinner. He talked back to my wife and she told him he would go in z time out if he continued. A few minutes later he talked back again and I told my wife I would take care of it. I got up and had him stand in the corner twenty feet away from the table. His brother was able to see his nine year old cousin laugh because his brother was in trouble. The nine year old actually left the table because she was about to laugh out loud.
> 
> The one standing in the corner kept turning around in the corner to watch everyone. I turned him back around and whispered in his ear. At this point he began to cry. About a minute later my wife slammed her hand on the table. She then proceeded to scream at me that I should be considerate to everyone else and taken him upstairs. Immediately I felt disrespected, humiliated, in disbelief as she screamed.
> 
> A thought came to my mind to say, your affair was enough disrespect to me, don't ever speak to me in that manner again. Although I didn't say that, I walked outside to calm down. When we got home that evening we put the kids to bed and my wife asked to talk. I explained calmly how and what I felt. I then told her I was too angry to talk about the incident that night.
> 
> My wife couldn't let it go and apologized, I again told her how I felt and that I could not talk tonight. On Monday night I saw my therapist and discussed this with her. My therapist was shocked at my wife's behavior, but completely understands how I have felt about this. My therapist asked if I was strong enough to live with a wife who could and will disrespect myself. She then asked if I loved her enough to wait while she works on disrespect in therapy. My wife is very strong willed and up until now I saw that as good, however right now it has only caused me pain and sadness.
> 
> Almost two and a half years into reconciliation, all the hard work both of us have done, and no idea what is right from here. At the moment my emotions have been racing. I told my wife I am undecided, if she deems that unfair she can choose what she likes. It is unfair of me to expect her to wait while I am undecided, and I told her this, but as of right now I simply can't work on reconciliation and myself until I have come to a decision.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like she has been disrespectful to you in a lot of ways for a long time. Why are you staying? There are much better people out there. MUCH better.


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## sokillme

GuyInColorado said:


> In a nutshell, his wife had an affair and got pregnant with twins with her affair partner. DO was never able to have kids with his wife. He is raising the twins as his own and reconciled.


Jesus:crying:

Your like the woman who stays with the man who beats her up everyday.


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## 5Creed

sokillme said:


> Sounds like she has been disrespectful to you in a lot of ways for a long time. Why are you staying? There are much better people out there. MUCH better.


Why did he stay? Because that was his choice at the time and it was the right one for him.


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## turnera

What will it take for you to learn to defend yourself in the next similar situation? THAT is what's missing. You could have said something like "I'm getting the boys and we are leaving. Stay or go, I don't care." And then get the boys and head to the car. THAT is what she is needing to take her down a notch or two.


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## GusPolinski

At some point it's no longer how much a BS loves his/her WS that allows him/her to stay in his/her marriage, but instead how much he/she _*DOESN'T* love himself/herself_ that keeps him/her trapped within it.

And with two living, breathing reminders of your WW's affair w/ OM hanging around and calling you "Daddy", it's probably safe to say that you're well past that point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GuyInColorado

5Creed said:


> Why did he stay? Because that was his choice at the time and it was the right one for him.


Because of the kids......Most of us would divorce in a heartbeat if there weren't kids involved. Who cares about the money, house, cars, etc. You can buy more later. But thinking you'll ruin your kids lives keeps most of us in horrible marriages. It did me until I woke up one day.

DO may have also saw it as his only way of having kids, not wanting to go find another relationship and starting over. Maybe not, but could be.


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## BobSimmons

drifting on said:


> while she works on disrespect in therapy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


wow you can do that? Work on disrespect? How long does that take?

I mean whatever that was doesn't seem like it was just simply disrespect. You're disciplining your child, you're trying to help, she knows this and is watching it, so whatever tripped her off, in that moment, the explosion of PHYSICAL anger to slam her hand down then direct her anger at you. I mean you'd think whatever was pent up was released in the moment she smacked the table but no she went further, she belittled you. That's the word you want to use, in front of everybody she cut you down. So yes there is disrespect but moreover there's resentment.

Disrespect and resentment? Do you work through that if you really feel it?


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## drifter777

This seems like a "straw that broke the camel's back" kind of incident. Like it wasn't this one thing - it was the accumulation of all of the anger, shame, and sadness finally just falling on you and it was her continued disrespect and treating you like sh!t that triggered it.

Look - you are going to have to just get used to these feelings. You have to accept that she is going to do things that will trigger all of the painful, horrible memories of her cheating. When she disrespects you like she did it will connect instantly with the emotions you have locked away in your mind and you will boil over. That's how it works when you rugsweep & compartmentalize your strong emotions and stay with a cheater for fear of destroying the life you have become accustomed to. This is the price and, since you've only now began to get in touch with these emotions, things are likely to get a lot tougher. 

Is divorce really so unacceptable to you?


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## GusPolinski

GuyInColorado said:


> Because of the kids......Most of us would divorce in a heartbeat if there weren't kids involved. Who cares about the money, house, cars, etc. You can buy more later. But thinking you'll ruin your kids lives keeps most of us in horrible marriages. It did me until I woke up one day.
> 
> DO may have also saw it as his only way of having kids, not wanting to go find another relationship and starting over. Maybe not, but could be.


Eh... the way I read things, their issues w/ infertility seemed to center around what had previously been her inability to carry a pregnancy to term. Based on that alone, if he wanted kids of his own, he could probably have them. (And I'd recommend that he look into it either way.)

Still, he didn't find out that they're not his until they were what... 2 1/2 years old? Everyone had already bonded by then. Sucks, but oh well.

So, while I won't say anything aimed at convincing him to abandon the two small humans that he was duped into accepting as his own, how he hasn't thrown the absolutely wretched human being that gave birth to them out on her ass is beyond me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LosingHim

I'm so sorry DO.


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## karole

DO, you, my kind sir, deserve so much better......


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## Dyokemm

GusPolinski said:


> Eh... the way I read things, their issues w/ infertility seemed to center around what had previously been her inability to carry a pregnancy to term. Based on that alone, if he wanted kids of his own, he could probably have them. (And I'd recommend that he look into it either way.)
> 
> Still, he didn't find out that they're not his until they were what... 2 1/2 years old? Everyone had already bonded by then. Sucks, but oh well.
> 
> So, while I won't say anything aimed at convincing him to abandon the two small humans that he was duped into accepting as his own, how he hasn't thrown the absolutely wretched human being that gave birth to them out on her ass is beyond me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly.

IMO the greatest challenge/danger facing any BS who tries to R is the level of destruction it will inflict on their self-respect and dignity.

Some BS seem to be able to easily shrug off the WS's disrespect with little damage to their self-esteem, but they seem to be in the minority IMO.

And the worst situations involve continuing incidents like this....where the utter sh*t sandwich the BS is forcing themselves to swallow from the A (and in this case the OC's as well) is continuing to be added to on a regular basis by the behavior of the WS.

I find it difficult to understand why any BS would continue to try R in these cases.....at what point can you no longer look at YOURSELF in the mirror?


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## VladDracul

GuyInColorado said:


> DO may have also saw it as his only way of having kids, not wanting to go find another relationship and starting over. Maybe not, but could be.


Unfortunately, the only one in these type situation who thinks they can become the daddy to their WW's illegitimate kids is him. (as was demonstrated by his "wife") 
When push comes to shove, the mother, the kids, and everybody else will let him know he's little more than someone, without power or authority, that is allowed to hang around and play daddy primarily to pick up the tab. As long as he continues to fool himself about his stature, his days of disappointment and humiliation are far from over.


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## Truthseeker1

farsidejunky said:


> DO:
> 
> Is there more to this story? The damage from the affair is obvious. Two and half years later, to suddenly realize you are no longer in this thing because an incident of disrespect, has the air of something that has perhaps been building, not just a sudden onset.
> 
> What else has been happening?


* @drifting on I'm sorry this happened but your wife is not the greatest person in the world. In your previous thread I said I was worried about your healing and she could go pound dirt..I stand by that - even if some folks disagreed. I agree with @farsidejunky - has something else been going on that made this the straw that broke the camels back? Have you been questioning the R? Has she been slipping in her day to day behavior?*



turnera2 said:


> What will it take for you to learn to defend yourself in the next similar situation? THAT is what's missing. You could have said something like "I'm getting the boys and we are leaving. Stay or go, I don't care." And then get the boys and head to the car. THAT is what she is needing to take her down a notch or two.


*Agree 100% - I would have snapped back with something like "you've disrespected me and this marriage enough so cut the sh!t!" And then headed out with the boys...but I would have not hesitated to put her in her place - she is so out of line it is not even funny. Your wife committed a very vile and evil deed she has no fvcking room for error...whatever you decide to do I wish you luck but if you decide to love the boys and ditch the wife I can't say I'd shed a tear for her - she deserves whatever misery is coming her way. The boys deserve a great dad and that is what you are. *


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## barbados

This is how its always going to be for Drifting ON. He didn't D her after she cheated and lied about the paternity of the kids, so compared to that this is small potatoes.

She will always treat him like this because she sees him as weak. Until DO realizes this his situation will not change.


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## bigfoot

So there is so much in your original post on this thread that I had chime in on this.

First, your therapist is full of crap!!! "Do you "love" her enough to wait while she works through this"?! SERIOUSLY. What kind of blame shifting, let them beat you until they are tired, bull **** is that? That question is in the hall of fame for quack therapist quotes. It is not even about loving someone enough. Never is. Its about respecting yourself. 

A pastor who was counseling a woman told her to forgive her husband for beating her and to remain and pray through it as a sign of her love for him. I asked him if he believed in turning the other cheek and forgiving those who spitefully abused him. He said, "yes, absolutely". I then told him that I was going to kick the living **** out of him and I wanted him to pray for me and forgive me and turn the other cheek as an example for the woman. He freaked, told me to leave his office and said he'd call the cops. I told her, that is what you should do. Dump that therapist.

Next: Dude, face the reality. This is not about her slamming the table and embarrassing you. It is about her affair. It is about all the crap that is your life and this woman. Face that. Hard work will kill you. Smart work gets you ahead.

Just because you say that you have been working hard and she has been working hard does not mean that you get whatever prize you thought was at the end. Its not magic. Go back to the beginning and really get in there. If it was a deal breaker, it was one. Stop running. If it was not one, get in there and do the real work. I think it was a deal breaker, but that is really your call. She's your wife and it is your life. I just don't get why you are still there, but you have your reasons. I guess.


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## Marc878

It's buyers remourse. Many who reconcile later wish they hadn't. That's a lot of baggage to overcome. 

I don't think this is unusual. However, DO is a pretty sensitive and deep thinking guy. He'll figure out what road he wants to take. No matter what it'll be difficult.


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## phillybeffandswiss

GuyInColorado said:


> Because of the kids......Most of us would divorce in a heartbeat if there weren't kids involved. Who cares about the money, house, cars, etc. You can buy more later. But thinking you'll ruin your kids lives keeps most of us in horrible marriages. It did me until I woke up one day.
> 
> DO may have also saw it as his only way of having kids, not wanting to go find another relationship and starting over. Maybe not, but could be.


I would agree with this post in many other threads, but not completely in this one. Her disrespect is on a totally different level than what you currently understand. Go read his threads. His is in an extremely unique and rare circumstance type of reconciliation. I respect his decision, but I worried, as many others did, this would come to a head in the future. It did. 

What you are going to have to do now, which is why I would NEVER be in your specific situation, is compartmentalize the actions away from the affair. The disrespect is disgusting period, but you treat it as separate incident if you are going to stay. No, she shouldn't be walking on egg shells, but she could be a single mom with no support, minus the court ordered type, with twins. 


Oh and I see you are still, minimizing her actions. Headstrong is one thing, but make sure you understand a person can be this way and still be respectful.


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## VladDracul

barbados2 said:


> She will always treat him like this because she sees him as weak.


And he apparently keeps proving her right. May as well face it, the guy wants to behave like a busboy, sulking quietly in private, he ain't gonna be mistaken for owner of the establishment.


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## Sports Fan

GusPolinski said:


> Eh... the way I read things, their issues w/ infertility seemed to center around what had previously been her inability to carry a pregnancy to term. Based on that alone, if he wanted kids of his own, he could probably have them. (And I'd recommend that he look into it either way.)
> 
> Still, he didn't find out that they're not his until they were what... 2 1/2 years old? Everyone had already bonded by then. Sucks, but oh well.
> 
> So, while I won't say anything aimed at convincing him to abandon the two small humans that he was duped into accepting as his own, how he hasn't thrown the absolutely wretched human being that gave birth to them out on her ass is beyond me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Never a truer word spoken. Most of us would have gone on the war path and tossed her arse to the kerb!


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## GusPolinski

VladDracul said:


> And he apparently keeps proving her right. May as well face it, the guy wants to behave like a busboy, sulking quietly in private, he ain't gonna be mistaken for owner establishment.


Are you @ThePheonix?


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## sokillme

5Creed said:


> Why did he stay? Because that was his choice at the time and it was the right one for him.


You wouldn't say that about a physically abusive spouse, why is emotionally any different?

Besides that I asked him not you. It's the right choice is not a sufficient answer, I think there is some sort of abuse in his past that allows him to continue in such an abusive relationship.

One other thing OP why are you in disbelief seem seems this woman has repeatedly showed you who she is and you don't want to believe it. She is and abusive bully, that is who she is, believe it.


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## sokillme

drifter777 said:


> Look - you are going to have to just get used to these feelings. You have to accept that she is going to do things that will trigger all of the painful, horrible memories of her cheating.


Or you can leave move on with your life and stop being a victim. You can take agency in your own happiness and be proactive. You can still be a father to the kids, and you can show them a good example of a person who has self respect and doesn't let himself be bullied. That is what a good father should do. You are not being a good father showing someone getting emotionally abused. This will be a pattern that will recur in their lives because it will be exemplified in your marriage. You need to have the courage to break the cycle, to figure out why you are letting yourself be abused, time to be brave for your kids. Your primary role in their lives it to protect them. Staying in this relationship is not protecting them, it is doing great damage to their future.


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## VladDracul

GusPolinski said:


> Are you @ThePheonix?


That'd be me. How'd you guess?


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## sokillme

Marc878 said:


> It's buyers remourse. Many who reconcile later wish they hadn't. That's a lot of baggage to overcome.
> 
> I don't think this is unusual. However, DO is a pretty sensitive and deep thinking guy. He'll figure out what road he wants to take. No matter what it'll be difficult.


Nah moving on will be like a smooth highway compared to staying with the monster he is with.


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## Openminded

DO, I generally stay away from your threads (because I just can't support your decision and, since I can't, I don't want to be negative because it's totally your decision) but I wanted to say that I do very much support _you_.


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## GusPolinski

Openminded said:


> DO, I generally stay away from your threads (because I just can't support your decision and, since I can't, I don't want to be negative because it's totally your decision) but I wanted to say that I do very much support _you_.


Prior to today, this has been my MO as well.


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## LosingHim

I don't believe DO is weak in the slightest. I think he genuinely loves his wife and wants to do right by HIS kids. 

I will not speak ill of Mrs. DO, other than to say that her actions were very wrong. 

But DO, you know you have to separate this from the affair. What have you told me countless times? THIS IS HARD WORK. 

She has disrespected you again. Yes. But she did not disrespect you in the same way. You have said she's worked very hard. You've worked very hard. This needs addressed, but separate from the affair. NO ONE is going to agree with me on this, but that's ok. She's not going to be perfect, and regardless of how hard she tries, she is going to make mistakes. This is a BIG one. Disrespect and humiliation in front of a crowd is not acceptable. But this is NOT the affair.

I've always been pulling for you. Since the day you told me your story. I want this marriage to work for you and those adorable boys. I understand your anger and frustration. I really do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme

LosingHim said:


> I don't believe DO is weak in the slightest. I think he genuinely loves his wife and wants to do right by HIS kids.


I think he is codependent at the very least but again I bet there is something very deeply damaged that allows him to stay in an abusive relationship. By any honest opinion this relationship IS abusive and as his kids get older they will see it, learn from it. Even now they are picking up very negative traits. They are not being modeled an example of a healthy man.

He may be a nice person but he is in an abusive relationship and he continues to stay. There is not honor in this. It's just sad. 

Letting someone abuse you is not love. His job is to protect his kids, he is not doing that by staying in this situation.


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## Adelais

drifting on said:


> During dinner one of the boys refused to eat. My wife had mentioned he would get nothing else to eat that night if he didn't eat dinner. He talked back to my wife and she told him he would go in z time out if he continued. A few minutes later he talked back again


Your boys are acting out because your wife has established that dynamic. If the child refuses to eat, she should tell them "That is fine if you choose to not eat, but this is your last opportunity to eat today....no food later." Then when the child is hungry later and wants to eat, say to them, "I'm sorry you are hungry. Remember that you decided not to eat at dinner time? Don't worry, you will make it through the night without eating, and then you can have some breakfast." And then she should not give in, but remain calm and not feed him. Her threats are recognized for empty threats, and your son knows it.



drifting on said:


> and I told my wife I would take care of it. I got up and had him stand in the corner twenty feet away from the table. His brother was able to see his nine year old cousin laugh because his brother was in trouble. The nine year old actually left the table because she was about to laugh out loud.
> 
> The one standing in the corner kept turning around in the corner to watch everyone. I turned him back around and whispered in his ear. At this point he began to cry.


Good move supporting your wife. She was tired, and you stepped in as back-up. However you should have had your son stand in a different room, where he could be alone and think about his actions, not be distracted or humiliated by the people watching and laughing at him. He was the center of attention the whole time, which he probably enjoyed, until he realized he wasn't having fun anymore.



drifting on said:


> About a minute later my wife slammed her hand on the table. She then proceeded to scream at me that I should be considerate to everyone else and taken him upstairs. Immediately I felt disrespected, humiliated, in disbelief as she screamed.


This just made me sad. How did the rest of the family react to her slamming down her hand and screaming? She clearly doesn't have self control. Your boys know that. Imagine how she is when you aren't home. She obviously doesn't respect herself, you, or anyone else in the room. She threw a temper tantrum.



drifting on said:


> A thought came to my mind to say, your affair was enough disrespect to me, don't ever speak to me in that manner again. Although I didn't say that, I walked outside to calm down. When we got home that evening we put the kids to bed and my wife asked to talk. I explained calmly how and what I felt. I then told her I was too angry to talk about the incident that night.
> 
> My wife couldn't let it go and apologized, I again told her how I felt and that I could not talk tonight. On Monday night I saw my therapist and discussed this with her. My therapist was shocked at my wife's behavior, but completely understands how I have felt about this.


Why didn't you tell her how you felt when you felt it, right when she disrespected you? Are you a conflict avoider? If you are, you are not being true to yourself. You will look like the sane one, since you are not yelling, and you want to avoid conflict and your own anger at all cost, but you look weak to your wife, and anyone witnessing her abuse toward you. 



drifting on said:


> My therapist asked if I was *strong enough* to live with a wife who could and will disrespect myself. She then asked if I *loved her enough* to wait while she works on disrespect in therapy. My wife is very strong willed and up until now I saw that as good, however right now it has only caused me pain and sadness.


Wow, what loaded questions: Are you strong enough? Do you love her enough? No man would want to say, "No, I am not strong enough, I am weak. No, I don't love her enough." I call BS on your therapist for her manipulative questions.



drifting on said:


> Almost two and a half years into reconciliation, all the hard work both of us have done, and no idea what is right from here. At the moment my emotions have been racing. I told my wife I am undecided, if she deems that unfair she can choose what she likes. It is unfair of me to expect her to wait while I am undecided, and I told her this, but as of right now I simply can't work on reconciliation and myself until I have come to a decision.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your wife disrespected you by having an A, then she lied and disrespected you about the children she sired, and now she disrespects and publicly humiliates you by yelling at you. I think you know in your gut how you feel about all this. It is not going to end until you accept that she will never respect you as long as you are with her. Only when you leave will she begin to realize that you are done taking her abuse. Or she will turn into a h*ll demon.

Your situation makes me so sad. If you leave her, she will quickly find another man, and you can see the OM's children 50% of the time...if you want to.

Since you had the genetic test, would the law make you pay child support for OM's children should you decide to divorce?


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## Marc878

For you to have a balanced marriage you should have put her in her place right then and there. She's never known consequences for whatever reason.

Many times those that care or do more than their fair share get walked on. People take advantage and lose respect. I hope you can recover.

Read it if you haven't yet.
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrB..._Guy.pdf/RK=0/RS=c1GmuaAyAAqeSRp0_hjJBf1SpPw-


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## sokillme

Marc878 said:


> For you to have a balanced marriage you should have put her in her place right then and there. She's never known consequences for whatever reason.
> 
> Many times those that care or do more than their fair share get walked on. People take advantage and lose respect. I hope you can recover.
> 
> Read it if you haven't yet.
> http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrB..._Guy.pdf/RK=0/RS=c1GmuaAyAAqeSRp0_hjJBf1SpPw-


How can she respect him she doesn't even respect herself. She is a bad person best to get far away from her.


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## AkaHantei

VladDracul said:


> Unfortunately, the only one in these type situation who thinks they can become the daddy to their WW's illegitimate kids is him. (as was demonstrated by his "wife")
> When push comes to shove, the mother, the kids, and everybody else will let him know he's little more than someone, without power or authority, that is allowed to hang around and play daddy primarily to pick up the tab. As long as he continues to fool himself about his stature, his days of disappointment and humiliation are far from over.



Sadly I agree. DO, let me take the side of your boys (I say your as you've assumed father role and responsibility). I have a strong believe based on my experience that first and foremost boys need a respected father. Not necessary cool, wealthy, overly compassionate or nice. Not even the one that stays with the mother. Mostly the one that has clear respect of others.

From the POV of what a boy is going to grow up into the situation you have is not health.

p.s. I don't think girls are that different bit I have no experience in that department.


----------



## Marc878

DO I think it's this simple.

You are to good for your own good.


----------



## Bibi1031

Oh wow, and I thought Plan B was bothering just because she picked you when OM was not the right one after all. I had no idea she hit you with two kids that weren't yours and you don't know about it until 2.5 years later.

Talk about Plan B and being taken advantage of to top that off!

You really need to dump this witch of a woman you married, got cheated on, got dumped kids that weren't yours on, has no respect for you, and is not sorry at all for all the damage she has caused.

And you are the one that feels shame? We all make stupid decisions in our lives, it's NEVER too late to fix this.

Set yourself free and live a much better life. You can never get over this kind of deceit and selfishness.

You honestly deserve so much better than the lumps you took. Time to start thinking about you for a change. The children will be better off with you living away from home than living in a home that has been nothing but lies, disrespect and deceit.


----------



## MattMatt

drifting on said:


> So Sunday evening we went to my sister in laws home. Mother in law and several teen aged cousins as well. My wife had a very bad day with the boys as they were talking back and not listening. I had to work that day so I came after. One of the cousins who is nine years old the boys adore. This cousin has been somewhat of a bad influence, telling the boys to say no and to run when called are just two examples. Their time with this cousin is limited and monitored since she tells the boys to do wrong.
> 
> During dinner one of the boys refused to eat. My wife had mentioned he would get nothing else to eat that night if he didn't eat dinner. He talked back to my wife and she told him he would go in z time out if he continued. A few minutes later he talked back again and I told my wife I would take care of it. I got up and had him stand in the corner twenty feet away from the table. His brother was able to see his nine year old cousin laugh because his brother was in trouble. The nine year old actually left the table because she was about to laugh out loud.
> 
> The one standing in the corner kept turning around in the corner to watch everyone. I turned him back around and whispered in his ear. At this point he began to cry. About a minute later my wife slammed her hand on the table. She then proceeded to scream at me that I should be considerate to everyone else and taken him upstairs. Immediately I felt disrespected, humiliated, in disbelief as she screamed.
> 
> A thought came to my mind to say, your affair was enough disrespect to me, don't ever speak to me in that manner again. Although I didn't say that, I walked outside to calm down. When we got home that evening we put the kids to bed and my wife asked to talk. I explained calmly how and what I felt. I then told her I was too angry to talk about the incident that night.
> 
> My wife couldn't let it go and apologized, I again told her how I felt and that I could not talk tonight. On Monday night I saw my therapist and discussed this with her. My therapist was shocked at my wife's behavior, but completely understands how I have felt about this. My therapist asked if I was strong enough to live with a wife who could and will disrespect myself. She then asked if I loved her enough to wait while she works on disrespect in therapy. My wife is very strong willed and up until now I saw that as good, however right now it has only caused me pain and sadness.
> 
> Almost two and a half years into reconciliation, all the hard work both of us have done, and no idea what is right from here. At the moment my emotions have been racing. I told my wife I am undecided, if she deems that unfair she can choose what she likes. It is unfair of me to expect her to wait while I am undecided, and I told her this, but as of right now I simply can't work on reconciliation and myself until I have come to a decision.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Am I right in sensing that you feel that your wife had the affair because she did not respect you as her husband?

And that the core or key cause of her infidelity, the disrespect, is still within her psyche?

If so, that is potentially a very explosive situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 5Creed

sokillme said:


> You wouldn't say that about a physically abusive spouse, why is emotionally any different?
> 
> Besides that I asked him not you. It's the right choice is not a sufficient answer, I think there is some sort of abuse in his past that allows him to continue in such an abusive relationship.
> 
> One other thing OP why are you in disbelief seem seems this woman has repeatedly showed you who she is and you don't want to believe it. She is and abusive bully, that is who she is, believe it.


It was the right choice...at the time...for HIM. It doesn't matter that you or me or someone else doesn't agree with it. You made your point very clear a few times in this thread. He has a right to stay in his own marriage or change his mind.


----------



## drifting on

karole said:


> So very sorry Drifting ............after your wife's outburst, you should have put her nose in the corner as well!




Karole,

I appreciate your kind words, it took everything I had to not respond in a cruel and vindictive manner. That's what would have come from my mouth had I spoken. Every word I would have spoke would have been laced with venom. Each day I am cursed at, in fact by 07:30 I had a guy threatening to kill me, I smiled. Why? They are words, period. Am I dead? No. Let me ask you this, if I did speak and put her in her place is the problem really solved? What was the problem? The problem was the fact my son did not eat chicken. That was the problem. For me and my wife to argue and slam each other makes no sense. Her actions were disrespectful, they were belittling as said in another post, but I will not disrespect anyone, including my wife, in front of the boys. Shat kind of father does that? 

I'm not trying to be disrespectful to you karole, I'm simply answering several posts in this one. I do appreciate your support, The Lord knows I've been needing that lately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

GuyInColorado said:


> My ex wife was similar. She would disrespect me in front of others. I never stood up for myself because I wanted to keep everything together and not have drama. I was a wimp. I finally had enough and told everyone how unhappy I was and how our marriage was a sham. Then I left and started the divorce procedures. I'm sure you'll do the same eventually after you've had enough. From your posts, you seem soft spoken and beta. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression you give. If she ever does that again, you need to stand up for yourself right there. You can't be treated like that again.





Ugh, beta/alpha, this is an argument in itself. First I don't believe in the alpha/beta crap as I call it. Soft spoken, I can give you that, but everyone I know will tell you not to cross me. I can be ruthless, choose not to be, I can be cruel, choose not to be, I deal with people others won't. I have the capability to be tough and soft, I choose to use what is needed at the time. I'm not a big ego person, I am (or was pre affair) very comfortable in how I treat people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on

farsidejunky said:


> DO:
> 
> Is there more to this story? The damage from the affair is obvious. Two and half years later, to suddenly realize you are no longer in this thing because an incident of disrespect, has the air of something that has perhaps been building, not just a sudden onset.
> 
> What else has been happening?




I'll pm you, hoping you can maybe help or be on to something here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

5Creed said:


> I absolutely hate this for you drifting on! I only wish you strength in whatever you decide to do and make sure you are taking care of yourself right now. I am truly sorry that she called you out like that in front of people. So hurtful and you have every right to feel like you do. It doesn't help things at all. Again; I am just sorry.




5creed

Thank you for you very kind words, your support is so very appreciated, I was feeling quite alone for awhile. God bless you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

GuyInColorado said:


> In a nutshell, his wife had an affair and got pregnant with twins with her affair partner. DO was never able to have kids with his wife. He is raising the twins as his own and reconciled.




Most of this is correct, GusPolinski had it right, I got her pregnant but she miscarried. For reasons only known to God, she carried OM's to full term. So I am able to have kids, but that would probably be a bad idea at this time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Duguesclin

drifting on said:


> So Sunday evening we went to my sister in laws home. Mother in law and several teen aged cousins as well. My wife had a very bad day with the boys as they were talking back and not listening. I had to work that day so I came after. One of the cousins who is nine years old the boys adore. This cousin has been somewhat of a bad influence, telling the boys to say no and to run when called are just two examples. Their time with this cousin is limited and monitored since she tells the boys to do wrong.
> 
> During dinner one of the boys refused to eat. My wife had mentioned he would get nothing else to eat that night if he didn't eat dinner. He talked back to my wife and she told him he would go in z time out if he continued. A few minutes later he talked back again and I told my wife I would take care of it. I got up and had him stand in the corner twenty feet away from the table. His brother was able to see his nine year old cousin laugh because his brother was in trouble. The nine year old actually left the table because she was about to laugh out loud.
> 
> The one standing in the corner kept turning around in the corner to watch everyone. I turned him back around and whispered in his ear. At this point he began to cry. About a minute later my wife slammed her hand on the table. She then proceeded to scream at me that I should be considerate to everyone else and taken him upstairs. Immediately I felt disrespected, humiliated, in disbelief as she screamed.
> 
> A thought came to my mind to say, your affair was enough disrespect to me, don't ever speak to me in that manner again. Although I didn't say that, I walked outside to calm down. When we got home that evening we put the kids to bed and my wife asked to talk. I explained calmly how and what I felt. I then told her I was too angry to talk about the incident that night.
> 
> My wife couldn't let it go and apologized, I again told her how I felt and that I could not talk tonight. On Monday night I saw my therapist and discussed this with her. My therapist was shocked at my wife's behavior, but completely understands how I have felt about this. My therapist asked if I was strong enough to live with a wife who could and will disrespect myself. She then asked if I loved her enough to wait while she works on disrespect in therapy. My wife is very strong willed and up until now I saw that as good, however right now it has only caused me pain and sadness.
> 
> Almost two and a half years into reconciliation, all the hard work both of us have done, and no idea what is right from here. At the moment my emotions have been racing. I told my wife I am undecided, if she deems that unfair she can choose what she likes. It is unfair of me to expect her to wait while I am undecided, and I told her this, but as of right now I simply can't work on reconciliation and myself until I have come to a decision.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If your definition of being embarrassed is your wife screaming at you in front of others, what about making your boy cry in front of others? If it is acceptable for you to treat your son that way, why isn't it acceptable for your wife to treat you that way?


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## drifting on

sokillme said:


> Sounds like she has been disrespectful to you in a lot of ways for a long time. Why are you staying? There are much better people out there. MUCH better.




I consider this to be speculation, aside from the affair and Sunday, she has not disrespected me. Not quite sure where you have come up with this. We have been thether 28 years, 21 married and she has never done something like this before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marc878

This current issue is not the root of the problem is it?

I suspect it just caused the real issue to surface.

I doubt anyone can imagine what you're wrestling with deep down. Worse if she isn't helping or is exacerbating the problem.


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## farsidejunky

drifting on said:


> Karole,
> 
> I appreciate your kind words, it took everything I had to not respond in a cruel and vindictive manner. That's what would have come from my mouth had I spoken. Every word I would have spoke would have been laced with venom. Each day I am cursed at, in fact by 07:30 I had a guy threatening to kill me, I smiled. Why? They are words, period. Am I dead? No. Let me ask you this, if I did speak and put her in her place is the problem really solved? What was the problem? The problem was the fact my son did not eat chicken. That was the problem. For me and my wife to argue and slam each other makes no sense. Her actions were disrespectful, they were belittling as said in another post, but I will not disrespect anyone, including my wife, in front of the boys. Shat kind of father does that?
> 
> I'm not trying to be disrespectful to you karole, I'm simply answering several posts in this one. I do appreciate your support, The Lord knows I've been needing that lately.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gently...

That is wrong, DO.

The incident with your son was the catalyst.

The problem is deeper. Think about it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## drifting on

sokillme said:


> Jesus:crying:
> 
> Your like the woman who stays with the man who beats her up everyday.




As I said in a previous post, twice in twenty eight years she has disrespected me. Your post is quite a stretch from the truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on

5Creed said:


> Why did he stay? Because that was his choice at the time and it was the right one for him.




Spot on with this 5creed, it was the best choice for ME. No other reason, it was the best choice but certainly not easy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

It sounds like you have recovered some from earlier today.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## drifting on

turnera2 said:


> What will it take for you to learn to defend yourself in the next similar situation? THAT is what's missing. You could have said something like "I'm getting the boys and we are leaving. Stay or go, I don't care." And then get the boys and head to the car. THAT is what she is needing to take her down a notch or two.




Putting her in her place in front of the boys is not something I will do. I will not disrespect someone just because they disrespected me. Your response is something that could have been said. However, the behavior she displayed is very uncharacteristic of her. She has never done something like this before.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

drifting on said:


> I consider this to be speculation, aside from the affair and Sunday, she has not disrespected me. Not quite sure where you have come up with this. We have been thether 28 years, 21 married and she has never done something like this before.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don't believe that allowing you to cluelessly dote on her -- along w/ the doubly-pregnant belly carrying OM's offspring -- for the entirely of her pregnancy to have been disrespectful?

How about the fact that she allowed you to sign legal documentation in which you (again, cluelessly) claimed paternity of said offspring?

How about the 2 1/2 years that she allowed you to raise them, again blissfully unaware of their true parentage?

Come on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

drifting on said:


> As I said in a previous post, twice in twenty eight years she has disrespected me. Your post is quite a stretch from the truth.


OK. Sure.

But the first time was something like 4 years of continuous, non-stop disrespect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VladDracul

drifting on said:


> Putting her in her place in front of the boys is not something I will do. I will not disrespect someone just because they disrespected me. Your response is something that could have been said. However, the behavior she displayed is very uncharacteristic of her. She has never done something like this before.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


DO you just see it a lot different than most folks, most likely to cover your weak handling of her dressing you down and making you look like a horses azz in front of family, friends, and the kid. Her affair, misleading you about the kids, etc., is the most blatant and ubiquitous form of disrespect she can muster in most folks judgement. You can't see it because you don't want to see it. If you did, you'd have to deal with her to stop it and you just don't seem to have it in you.
Here's the thing dawg, once they've lost respect, it seldom returns. She showed this by giving you a good public shellacking over her disapproval of your form of the kid's discipline. 
Take my word for it my man, you ain't seen the last of it and the more you roll over and play dead, the more of this crap she'll dish out.


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## *Deidre*

People often stay in bad relationships because the fear of the unknown is scarier than the daily toxicity they take in the relationship. When not changing the situation becomes more painful than changing it...then, you'll change it. Start being good to yourself. ((hugs and praying))


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## Dyokemm

Duguesclin said:


> If your definition of being embarrassed is your wife screaming at you in front of others, what about making your boy cry in front of others? If it is acceptable for you to treat your son that way, why isn't it acceptable for your wife to treat you that way?


This is a ridiculous statement.

The child was being disciplined for continuous defiance and talking back.....and in an acceptable manner.....don't want to mention what my old man would have done to me in that situation back in the day.

DO's wife's outburst was just an abusive tirade that was completely uncalled for......and showed ZERO respect for him as both a parent and her partner.


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## turnera

drifting on said:


> Putting her in her place in front of the boys is not something I will do. I will not disrespect someone just because they disrespected me. Your response is something that could have been said. However, the behavior she displayed is very uncharacteristic of her. She has never done something like this before.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If it is that out of character for her, what have you since done to get to the root of why she did it? SOMEthing caused it, and this is the kind of thing that must be discussed, lest it continue to build and ruin things.

btw, you telling her you are leaving would not have been mean or cruel or rude. I don't know why you think it would have. It would have actually been kind. While still respecting yourself.

I know you think that turning the other cheek is the way to show strength, but it can be damaging to your relationship.


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## sokillme

drifting on said:


> As I said in a previous post, twice in twenty eight years she has disrespected me. Your post is quite a stretch from the truth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Besides that pearl harbor thing the Americans and the Japanese had a great diplomatic relationship.

Dude she had another mans child while married to you it doesn't get any more disrespectful. Every time she had sex, talked to, and finally gave birth and expected you to raise the other guys kid she disrespected you. Over and Over again. I get it though, it was just that one time that that happened though. 

OPEN YOUR EYES!


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## sokillme

5Creed said:


> It was the right choice...at the time...for HIM. It doesn't matter that you or me or someone else doesn't agree with it. You made your point very clear a few times in this thread. He has a right to stay in his own marriage or change his mind.


Nope just like a person who goes back to a physical abuser I am not going to say this is the right thing to do. It is absolutely the WRONG thing to do. Feeling good about it doesn't make it right, as exemplified by the fact that she is still disrespecting and abusing him in front of his kids and family. This woman is an emotional abuser plain and simple. The only difference is we arrest people who physically abuse.


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## phillybeffandswiss

drifting on said:


> As I said in a previous post, twice in twenty eight years she has disrespected me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has severely disrespected you twice, in the last 5 years of a 28 year marriage.


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## sokillme

OP I know you think I am just trying to put you down you but again I am not. You need to see what this woman has done to you, what she is doing to your kids through you. You need to be strong for you kids, and that doesn't mean sacrificing your soul to stay in a marriage. When your son's grow up do you want them to be in a marriage like yours? That is what you are modeling for them. Do you want them to be afraid to stand up for themselves? That is what you are modeling for them. Don't set yourself on fire so she can be happy, or more importantly because you are scared.

I has no effect on me either way if you stay or not. I just hate to see another human being treated in such a terrible way, and the worst part is you keep going back to her expecting her to act differently.


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## sokillme

Dyokemm said:


> This is a ridiculous statement.
> 
> The child was being disciplined for continuous defiance and talking back.....and in an acceptable manner.....don't want to mention what my old man would have done to me in that situation back in the day.
> 
> DO's wife's outburst was just an abusive tirade that was completely uncalled for......and showed ZERO respect for him as both a parent and her partner.


And also was a good example to the kid, no wonder that the child has tirades. He follows his Mom's example.


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## turnera

DO, my point is that, psychologically, your humiliation and your belief that you will never 'disrespect' your wife are 100% connected. What you have described are Nice Guy traits, and your therapist tried to get you to that point, to see that, but didn't quite vocalize it. I suspect she wants you to see it for yourself. And notice that, like your typical Nice Guy, you come here and show us what a nasty person she is, and as soon as we say 'leave her' or 'show some respect for yourself,' you rush to defend her, to minimize what happened, and to try to maintain that you are perfectly ok because you are taking the high road by not giving back what she gave. But inside you're hurting like a little boy because, well, she one-upped you and you lacked the self esteem to call her out on it.

I'm not trying to dis you. I'm trying to get you to see what's happening for what it really is. Until you can acknowledge the real factors here, nothing will improve. I'm glad you told her that you're too mad to deal with it. But I suspect it's all going right back under that rug, along with everything else.


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## MattMatt

Duguesclin said:


> If your definition of being embarrassed is your wife screaming at you in front of others, what about making your boy cry in front of others? If it is acceptable for you to treat your son that way, why isn't it acceptable for your wife to treat you that way?


If you do not understand why children can cry, then maybe this thread wasn't the place to admit it?

Here is a clue: Realisation that the child has overstepped the limit, embarrassed because the child acted like a chump, using crying as a control weapon etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Dyokemm said:


> This is a ridiculous statement.
> 
> The child was being disciplined for continuous defiance and talking back.....and in an acceptable manner.....don't want to mention what my old man would have done to me in that situation back in the day.
> 
> DO's wife's outburst was just an abusive tirade that was completely uncalled for......and showed ZERO respect for him as both a parent and her partner.


It is a matter of perspective. There were other ways of dealing with his concerns. Talking with the boys and the female cousin about the defiance and the unwillingness to eat may have been more effective.

Abuse is a misuse of power, correct? Perhaps his wife felt he was misusing his power over the boys. It sounds like she was very frustrated with do, and the dam broke loose.

DO, you seem very sensitive. Do you not see how your son could be just as sensitive? He has his pride, too, just like you have yours. 

And he is only four, correct? He does not have nearly the tools to deal with his emotions that you may have available to you.

How about taking some leadership and apologizing to your wife for your refusal to talk the other night, and asking her what frustrated her and provoked her outburst?

You want to seem like an adult to her, do, not another child she has to deal with. Behaving the way you did the other night is not likely furthering your cause.


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## farsidejunky

DO:

You said she has disrespected you twice.

Is that twice beyond the scope of things dealing with the affair, eg. the gas lighting, the kids, etc?

How many times has she actually treated you like she did yesterday?

How is she acting now?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MattMatt

jld said:


> It is a matter of perspective. There were other ways of dealing with his concerns.* Talking with the boys and the female cousin about the defiance and the unwillingness to eat may have been more effective.*
> 
> Abuse is a misuse of power, correct? Perhaps his wife felt he was misusing his power over the boys. It sounds like she was very frustrated with do, and the dam broke loose.
> 
> DO, you seem very sensitive. Do you not see how your son could be just as sensitive? He has his pride, too, just like you have yours.
> 
> And he is only four, correct? He does not have nearly the tools to deal with his emotions that you may have available to you.
> 
> How about taking some leadership and apologizing to your wife for your refusal to talk the other night, and asking her what frustrated her and provoked her outburst?
> 
> You want to seem like an adult to her, do, not another child she has to deal with. Behaving the way you did the other night is not likely furthering your cause.


Oh, yeah. Great idea, that.

_Because correcting other people's children in the home of their parents in front of their parents always works very well, doesn't it? _


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## jld

MattMatt said:


> Oh, yeah. Great idea, that.
> 
> _Because correcting other people's children in the home of their parents in front of their parents always works very well, doesn't it? _


Talking with them does not necessarily mean correcting them. It can just mean seeking understanding of where they are coming from.


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## jld

VladDracul said:


> Turnera said it best. Our man DO is seething inside to the point of venting on this site but rushes in to defend her and minimize what happened when most advise is telling him he'd needs to take some uncomfortable action. Him pretending that he's taking the so called high road and putting himself above the fray is nothing more than rationalization for his inaction.
> In the final analysis, what he fails to understand is that his WW sees him in the same light as the rest of us; a man who kowtows to her bad behavior.


I don't think she sees him that way. I think she sees him behaving as a child himself.


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## Starstarfish

Oh, yeah. Great idea, that.


> Because correcting other people's children in the home of their parents in front of their parents always works very well, doesn't it?


It doesn't bother me to do this, but then I'm a teacher so correcting other people's children is like second nature. I'd have made a point make a comment and then not go over there anymore for some period of time. What did the parents of this female cousin do when her antics and encouragement got the son in trouble? She left the table to titter and laugh? Did anyone do anything?

I'd personally cut time with this group of family members, they are a bad influence on the kids and it leads to frustration and anger and other negative feelings and reactions.


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## VladDracul

farsidejunky said:


> How many times has she actually treated you like she did yesterday?


Turnera said it best. Our man DO is seething inside to the point of venting on this site but rushes in to defend her and minimize what happened when most advise is telling him he'd needs to take some uncomfortable action. Him pretending that he's taking the so called high road and putting himself above the fray is nothing more than rationalization for his inability to deal with her. Deep down I suspect he feels that if he puts pressure on her weak interest in him and the marriage, she'll pull the plug and send him packing and/or enter into another affair. 
What he fails to understand is that his WW sees him in the same light as the rest of us; a man who kowtows and gives her a pass on her bad behavior.


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## VladDracul

jld said:


> I don't think she sees him that way. I think she sees him behaving as a child himself.


I kinda see him behaving as a child myself. One that's got to go along to get along.


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## MattMatt

jld said:


> Talking with them does not necessarily mean correcting them. It can just mean seeking understanding of where they are coming from.


A parent will take another adult "talking" to their offspring under such circumstances as correcting them.


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## jld

MattMatt said:


> A parent will take another adult "talking" to their offspring under such circumstances as correcting them.


Possibly. Or they might see the value of trying to understand the child, and learn from the example.


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## MattMatt

VladDracul said:


> Turnera said it best. Our man DO is seething inside to the point of venting on this site but rushes in to defend her and minimize what happened when most advise is telling him he'd needs to take some uncomfortable action. Him pretending that he's taking the so called high road and putting himself above the fray is nothing more than rationalization for his inability to deal with her. Deep down I suspect he feels that if he puts pressure on her weak interest in him and the marriage, she'll pull the plug and send him packing and/or enter into another affair.
> What he fails to understand is that his WW sees him in the same light as the rest of us; a man who kowtows and gives her a pass on her bad behavior.


There have been BS on TAM who, when another member starts talking s**t about their WS step in and defend their WS.

Two examples that spring to mind are Juicer and Chris.

Why? Because they do not want random dudes going off on their WS. Because that's their job. Not the job of someone else.


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## MattMatt

jld said:


> Possibly. Or they might see the value of trying to understand the child, and learn from the example.


Not unless they are Social Justice Warrior types. 

No real parent would allow another adult to correct their child in their home.


----------



## jld

MattMatt said:


> Not unless they are Social Justice Warrior types.
> 
> No real parent would allow another adult to correct their child in their home.


Again, I don't see trying to understand the child as necessarily correcting them.


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## farsidejunky

I don't see it the same.

DO triggered. That simple. The difference is that DO is a very sensitive man, and that is not a negative BTW. I understand this well because I am very much the same way.

My current wife has not cheated on me, so I see this as a bit of an overreaction based on the history of cheating. However, I have been in this position when my wife and I had a broken dynamic. I had a similar reaction, and rather than remaining calm, my fight/flight reaction triggered, and I chose to fight. I verbally smashed her.

Now, was she wrong for being disrespectful? Yep. Was I wrong for verbally smashing her? Yep. The proper response would have been to calmly but firmly tell her, "I am not okay with your tone" and then address it later, one on one.

So what actually happened? DO triggers. Then we have a series of folks stepping in to fan the flames with talk of how this is a result of the affair, or the children, or her gas lighting, or her "well hidden" lack of respect. Rather than encouraging DO to take a moment to calm down, reflect on how he triggered, encouraging him to own his trigger, AND THEN tell him to hold his wife accountable for her showing a lack of respect, people instead proceed to tell DO to divorce, leave, she never really respected him, etc...bringing gasoline to put out a fire.

Yes, what his wife did in her affair was heinous, but let's not make this incident about more than it is. DO triggered. Let him own it, THEN hold his wife accountable for her actions. 

And news flash, folks: DO was not the only one that triggered... 

@drifting on: 

I am looking forward to that PM. Take a deep breath, let the anxiety pass, and then act. 



VladDracul said:


> Turnera said it best. Our man DO is seething inside to the point of venting on this site but rushes in to defend her and minimize what happened when most advise is telling him he'd needs to take some uncomfortable action. Him pretending that he's taking the so called high road and putting himself above the fray is nothing more than rationalization for his inability to deal with her. Deep down I suspect he feels that if he puts pressure on her weak interest in him and the marriage, she'll pull the plug and send him packing and/or enter into another affair.
> What he fails to understand is that his WW sees him in the same light as the rest of us; a man who kowtows and gives her a pass on her bad behavior.


----------



## farsidejunky

I absolutely would.

On Saturday, we had a small party to reward some young men who are volunteering a ton of time to help our church as they go through a discipleship program with our pastor.

One of them told my son he needed to stop pestering another child that was there. He was right. After that, I encouraged the young man to do it again if he saw something that needed correcting. 

If I am the only one who can correct my child, how will they feel accountable to anyone but me?



MattMatt said:


> Not unless they are Social Justice Warrior types.
> 
> No real parent would allow another adult to correct their child in their home.


----------



## MattMatt

farsidejunky said:


> I don't see it the same.
> 
> DO triggered. That simple. The difference is that DO is a very sensitive man, and that is not a negative BTW. I understand this well because I am very much the same way.
> 
> My current wife has not cheated on me, so I see this as a bit of an overreaction based on the history of cheating. However, I have been in this position when my wife and I had a broken dynamic. I had a similar reaction, and rather than remaining calm, my fight/flight reaction triggered, and I chose to fight. I verbally smashed her.
> 
> Now, was she wrong for being disrespectful? Yep. Was I wrong for verbally smashing her? Yep. The proper response would have been to calmly but firmly tell her, "I am not okay with your tone" and then address it later, one on one.
> 
> So what actually happened? DO triggers. Then we have a series of folks stepping in to fan the flames with talk of how this is a result of the affair, or the children, or her gas lighting, or her "well hidden" lack of respect. Rather than encouraging DO to take a moment to calm down, reflect on how he triggered, encouraging him to own his trigger, AND THEN tell him to hold his wife accountable for her showing a lack of respect, people instead proceed to tell DO to divorce, leave, she never really respected him, etc...bringing gasoline to put out a fire.
> 
> Yes, what his wife did was heinous, but let's not make this about more than it is. DO triggered. Let him own it, THEN hold his wife accountable for her actions.
> 
> And news flash, folks: DO was not the only one that triggered...
> 
> @driftingon:
> 
> I am looking forward to that PM. Take a deep breath, let the anxiety pass, and then act.


Wow, yes! You are right! His wife triggered first!

But why? What did she see or feel when he was quietly correcting their child that made her explode with rage?:scratchhead:


----------



## MattMatt

farsidejunky said:


> I absolutely would.
> 
> On Saturday, we had a small party to reward some young men who are volunteering a ton of time to help our church as they go through a discipleship program with our pastor.
> 
> One of them told my son he needed to stop pestering another child that was there. He was right. After that, I encouraged the young man to do it again if he saw something that needed correcting.
> 
> If I am the only one who can correct my child, how will they feel accountable to anyone but me?


Yes, I take your point.

But it would be considered very bad form for an adult to correct a child in that child's own home. Well, at least in the way JLD was suggesting.

Drat! This was just another pointless threadjacking!


----------



## farsidejunky

I have no idea. 

But neither will @drifting on until he lets the anxiety pass, owns his trigger, and then asks open ended questions to his wife about what actually happened.

She may have simply just been having a bad day. Maybe she had PMS. Maybe there is something unknown going on with her (think health ailment or the like) that she has not discussed with him yet.

It can literally be a million things. Until he gets to 50,000 feet, it will be impossible for him to find out.



MattMatt said:


> Wow, yes! You are right! His wife triggered first!
> 
> But why? What did she see or feel when he was quietly correcting their child that made her explode with rage?:scratchhead:


----------



## farsidejunky

@drifting on:

For the record, I suck at owning my triggers in the moment. It is about 65/35% that I recognize that I am triggering right away. The other 35%, I have that immediate moment of panic, and have to work my way through it to calm down. Probably 10% of the time is an epic fail.

Mine stems from being physically and emotionally abused as a child. It will likely never go away.

DO, please refresh my memory. Did you grow up in an abusive home?


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## LosingHim

farsidejunky said:


> I absolutely would.
> 
> On Saturday, we had a small party to reward some young men who are volunteering a ton of time to help our church as they go through a discipleship program with our pastor.
> 
> One of them told my son he needed to stop pestering another child that was there. He was right. After that, I encouraged the young man to do it again if he saw something that needed correcting.
> 
> If I am the only one who can correct my child, how will they feel accountable to anyone but me?


 In the past, when we had large groups of people over often, it was understood that everyone there was allowed to correct other people’s kids as long as it was within reason. Of course, no one was allowed to outright discipline them. But it was very common to hear one adult correct a group of children to stop running around the pool, no fighting with sticks, if an argument broke out between the kids the closest adult put a stop to it. One of our friends has a child who has some issues (I say issues, because we all see behavioral and emotional issues, but she won’t have him tested so we don’t know exactly what’s up with him). Unfortunately, she lets him get away with murder with no correction. One time when he was at my house, I caught him trying to pick my full grown golden retriever up by her head. He was 10 at the time so definitely old enough to know better. I asked him to please stop. He didn’t. My dog was very laid back and gentle, but it was still a safety concern, plus I didn’t want my dog hurt either obviously. Finally, I grabbed him, picked him up and sat him down on a chair and told him never to touch my dog again. His mom and step dad had no issues with this whatsoever. Sadly, he ended up doing this to another friends dog about a year later and got bit on the hand. 

I do not mind my friends or family correcting my child as long as they are doing it in a respectful way and without physical discipline. It takes a village to raise a child.


----------



## jld

MattMatt said:


> Yes, I take your point.
> 
> But it would be considered very bad form for an adult to correct a child in that child's own home. Well, at least in the way JLD was suggesting.
> 
> Drat! This was just another pointless threadjacking!


I suggested talking to them to understand why they are doing what they are doing. It is not even necessarily "correcting" them.


----------



## VladDracul

farsidejunky said:


> So what actually happened? DO triggers. Then we have a series of folks stepping in to fan the flames with talk of how this is a result of the affair, or the children, or her gas lighting, or her "well hidden" lack of respect. Rather than encouraging DO to take a moment to calm down, reflect on how he triggered, encouraging him to own his trigger, AND THEN tell him to hold his wife accountable for her showing a lack of respect, people instead proceed to tell DO to divorce, leave, she never really respected him, etc...bringing gasoline to put out a fire.


The problem with forums is everyone is speaking from their own perspective. Mine is a spouse should put their mate ahead of all others. In my view her willful and public impugning of him indicates a lack of respect or regard that she embarrass him in front of others. Moreover, that incident neutered him in disciplining his adopted kids 
Respect is either something you have or you don't. It is not given to you by another. It is something you require and behave in a manner that commands it. Moreover, I woman cannot romantically love a man she doesn't respect. If you doubt it, ask the women.
I don't have a dog in the fight as to whether he stays married or divorces. Obviously he thinks she's worth the crap she put him through.


----------



## farsidejunky

MattMatt said:


> Wow, yes! You are right! His wife triggered first!
> 
> But why? What did she see or feel when he was quietly correcting their child that made her explode with rage?:scratchhead:


Here's another news flash, Matt. 

DO and his wife are not the only ones who triggered, either.

His story represents sort of a worst-case scenario of what happens from infidelity. This leads to a trigger fest of epic proportions

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## turnera

MattMatt said:


> Wow, yes! You are right! His wife triggered first!
> 
> But why? What did she see or feel when he was quietly correcting their child that made her explode with rage?:scratchhead:


Based on what she said, my guess is she felt the others were judging the two of them on their parenting, she felt shame, so she shifted the blame to DO.


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## Clay2013

Have you really looked into your rights with these children? I am sure you signed the birth certificate but in some states if your proven not to be the biological father you can be removed. Right now your there and she wants you there but at some point in time things might go south. She has done the worst possible betrayal I think anyone could do aside of killing you. What makes you think she wouldn't try to hurt you later by taking the children away from you if you decided not to stay with her? You keep talking about how you have respect for yourself and how you act but doesn't that also mean standing up for yourself. Some times people do need to be put in there place. It sounds honestly while she is grateful your still there its probably because she wouldn't have anyone else to help her raise her children. She wouldn't have anyone else to help foot the bill for them. Who really cares if she triggered or she is feeling bad. You sacrificed more for her than most ever would have. She should be kissing your feet everyday thanking you for staying with her. 

I think you really need to take some time out and learn your rights with the children and figure out what ground rules you want in place if you move forward. Keep one thing in mind. She is only looking out for herself. If she really was looking out for your there is no way she would have ever brought these kids into this world knowing the hell your going to go through and the hell they are going to go through. 

If I am off base I am sorry. I just think you need to learn your rights. I have been burned this way in the past and its something I take very seriously now. 

C


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## sokillme

jld said:


> DO, you seem very sensitive. Do you not see how your son could be just as sensitive? He has his pride, too, just like you have yours.
> 
> And he is only four, correct? He does not have nearly the tools to deal with his emotions that you may have available to you.


His son is a child who needs correction and discipline. At 4 years old he is to young to be talking about his pride. He needs first to understand consequences. Time out is a very good way to enforce those consequences. OP did nothing wrong, his wife undermined his correction. At worst he should of had him go into another room.


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## jld

sokillme said:


> His son is a child who needs correction and discipline. At 4 years old he is to young to be talking about his pride. He needs first to understand consequences. Time out is a very good way to enforce those consequences. OP did nothing wrong, his wife undermined his correction. At worst he should of had him go into another room.


I think all humans have some pride. 

Having some empathy for his son's feelings would be helpful. 

I think the universe was trying to teach do a lesson through his wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VladDracul

JLD I think as long as everyone else came out smelling like a rose and DO was taking all the shyt to make that happen, you'd be just fine with it.


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## jld

VladDracul said:


> JLD I think as long as everyone else came out smelling like a rose and DO was taking all the shyt to make that happen, you'd be just fine with it.


He could learn to discipline differently, Vlad. That would have avoided all the hurt feelings.


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## threelittlestars

Wow, does not matter if she frequently yells and demeans you. SHE DISRESPECTED you so profoundly that she does not GET A BAD DAY, or one slip up. Not ever again. Not like she unleashed on you. and you know why she did? She thinks you are safe, and you will take it. Her pet punching bag....she has not even apologised for it! 

I agree with everyone here. You came here to complain about your wife...then when we agree and encourage you to leave you defend her. Classic CO DEPENDENCE! and nice guy syndrome. 

I cant believe you dont see the level of disrespect she is SHOWING YOU EVERYDAY by not trying to make up for what she has done to YOU. she gets mad at you for how you handle the kids? well you stayed to do the best you could for them and it seems YOUR BEST IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR MISS SELFISH AND ENTITLED! 

wake up DO...wake up.


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## farsidejunky

TLS:

Please tell me how realistic perfection in behavior is from someone post affair.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

turnera2 said:


> Based on what she said, my guess is she felt the others were judging the two of them on their parenting, she felt shame, so she shifted the blame to DO.


Because he is her safe person.

If she had never cheated, the tone of this thread (not necessarily your post per se, Turnera) would be wholly different.

Everyone needs room for mistakes, even former waywards.

Extrapolation and projection is a nasty brew, and on full display in this thread.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## LosingHim

farsidejunky said:


> TLS:
> 
> Please tell me how realistic perfection in behavior is from someone post affair.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I don’t understand this line of thinking either. Yes, a WS has some really hard work to do. There are a lot of wrongs to try to do right by. And I fully believe they should strive to be the BEST spouse that can be from that point on, with the understanding that it still might be enough. 

But to say that there is NO room for error? They are still human beings. They will still make mistakes. They will still have bad days. Don’t get me wrong, I feel Mrs. DO screwed up pretty badly with this. DO knows I respect him and his choice to stay with his wife, so therefore, I extend my respect to his wife. But, that doesn’t mean that I can’t think she screwed up in this instance. 

Expect perfection and you’re setting yourself up for failure. NO ONE is going to be the perfect spouse 100% of the time. To say there is no room for error and that someone is expected to be Mother Teresa 100% of the time is absurd.


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## threelittlestars

To expect perfection i agree is wrong, but see the long term damage that her out bursts are doing? When will enough be enough for the OP? If she knows what is good for her she SHOULD treat him better and be careful of her outbursts...because i got to say if my husband did that.....I might walk. If she fears him walking she better knock that crap off. If she wants security then she better curb the temper. As someone who gets over whelmed i agree people should be given some leway....but how much. She has already trodden on this guys life and heart. If he rolls over and gives too many allowances it will get worse and she will think he is just fine with the status quo.


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## Dyokemm

farsidejunky said:


> I absolutely would.
> 
> On Saturday, we had a small party to reward some young men who are volunteering a ton of time to help our church as they go through a discipleship program with our pastor.
> 
> One of them told my son he needed to stop pestering another child that was there. He was right. After that, I encouraged the young man to do it again if he saw something that needed correcting.
> 
> If I am the only one who can correct my child, how will they feel accountable to anyone but me?


I agree completely with what you have said.

At the same time, however, I do agree with Matt that a majority of other people will actually get offended and rush in to defend their child.

I have been teaching for 24 years, and I can't tell you the number of times I've seen parents come in raging and upset over a detention or suspension or even just a verbal correction that the student DEFINITELY deserved.......doesn't matter to the parent......there attitude is, "How dare you speak/do that to my child that way."


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## phillybeffandswiss

farsidejunky said:


> Because he is her safe person.


Who she disrespected because she didn't like the way he disciplined her kids. "Safe person" goes both ways, even if some posters believe it is only a one way street.



> If she had never cheated, the tone of this thread (not necessarily your post per se, Turnera) would be wholly different.


Of course it would be if he wrote it STRICTLY about her disrespectful public chastising of his parenting. He introduced the cheating in his OP.



> Everyone needs room for mistakes, even former waywards.


I told him to separate the two acts. HE is the one who tied them together.




> Extrapolation and projection is a nasty brew, and on full display in this thread.


The only thing on full display is his fully cooked recipe for disaster. The nasty brew he created himself and people are just sampling his concoction.


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## farsidejunky

Dyokemm said:


> I agree completely with what you have said.
> 
> At the same time, however, I do agree with Matt that a majority of other people will actually get offended and rush in to defend their child.
> 
> I have been teaching for 24 years, and I can't tell you the number of times I've seen parents come in raging and upset over a detention or suspension or even just a verbal correction that the student DEFINITELY deserved.......doesn't matter to the parent......there attitude is, "How dare you speak/do that to my child that way."


This is a huge generational difference. It used to be the burden was on the student to prove to the parents he did not misbehave. That has swung to the opposite end of the pendulum. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Kivlor

I definitely think it was bad form to let your W's behavior go unaddressed immediately. That said, if you couldn't keep it together without "blowing up" on her, probably best to wait. In the future OP, I'd take a situation like that--if you can keep your cool for the most part--and look to your W and say "Wife, I need you to step outside. Now." And then tell your boys "You 2, stay put. If I find you've moved when your Mom and I come back, we're going home."

Then take your W outside, and tersely explain that this kind of disrespectful behavior isn't going to be tolerated; and that you need to show a united front to your children, not a divided one. Something like "Wife, I need you to not act like that in front of the kids and in front of company. It sends the wrong message to everyone." Then decide what you will do with the kids when you come back inside, and do it. 

If you come back in and the kids haven't obeyed, pack up the family and go home.

Command the respect of your family D.O.


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## turnera

threelittlestars said:


> If she fears him walking she better knock that crap off.


Isn't that the problem, though? I've seen no indication that she DOES fear he may leave her, except maybe this last conversation.

DO? Does she?


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## soccermom2three

Drifting, has she volunteered to call everyone and apologize for her outburst? Would that help?


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## sokillme

jld said:


> I think all humans have some pride.
> 
> Having some empathy for his son's feelings would be helpful.
> 
> I think the universe was trying to teach do a lesson through his wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well jid you certainly are consistent.


----------



## sokillme

VladDracul said:


> I kinda see him behaving as a child myself. One that's got to go along to get along.


I see her as having the mentally of a child. OP has 3 children 2 growing and one an adult. The problem is he treats her like an adult when she really needs consequences and ramifications. He keeps thinking he is going to reason her into changing. She is not a logical person she is a much more primal person, she doesn't have the emotional intelligence to change because of reason.


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## sokillme

farsidejunky said:


> TLS:
> 
> Please tell me how realistic perfection in behavior is from someone post affair.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


No one is asking her to be perfect. Her disrespect is exactly the same kind of behavior that lead to this man raising another man's kids. He, mistakenly or not, is trying to move forward with the relationship and she once again displays the same exact kind of abuse. This shows that she has not changed and doesn't get it. 

All OP should be expecting from her is to stop abusing and disrespecting him especially in front of his family, this is the very minimum of decency in any human relationship. It you think that requires perfection then your standards are very low.


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## sokillme

jld said:


> Again, I don't see trying to understand the child as necessarily correcting them.


What is to understand children by there very nature are selfish and self centered. Your job as a parent is to disciple them to get them to understand that this is not a healthy part of their nature. Children are not sophisticated. They need encouragement and disciple.


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## VladDracul

jld said:


> He could learn to discipline differently, Vlad. That would have avoided all the hurt feelings.


Back when I was a kid and for a while thereafter, the parents would have heated up the seat of their pants. There wasn't a lot of kids talking back to their parents.


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## farsidejunky

sokillme said:


> No one is asking her to be perfect. Her disrespect is exactly the same kind of behavior that lead to this man raising another man's kids. He, mistakenly or not, is trying to move forward with the relationship and she once again displays the same exact kind of abuse. This shows that she has not changed and doesn't get it.
> 
> All OP should be expecting from her is to stop abusing and disrespecting him especially in front of his family, this is the very minimum of decency in any human relationship. It you think that requires perfection then your standards are very low.


To be clear, one time post affair does not a pattern make. You're assertion needs a pattern of behavior for substantiation which, frankly, has not been there post affair.

I respectfully disagree with your position.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## phillybeffandswiss

One of the complaints on TAM is people wanting the wayward to be perfect. I agree with little things and sometimes people do overreact wanting perfection. This isn't his wife getting angry and calling him a name in private or slipping up looking at na AP's Facebook profile. Yes, he should let little angry outbursts go. She does get to be emotional, sad, angry, trigger, disappointed, happy and many other things. She doesn't get to disrespect him in this fashion AT ALL. Yes, regardless of another person's opinion who is cool with his wife screaming "divorce" at him because "women are emotional.". So, IMO, the "perfection" red herring was dropped to confuse the issue. Yes, mistakes will be made, but this was a publicly humiliating display in front of their kids, her family and a separate family's child and has nothing to do with "perfection."


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## farsidejunky

phillybeffandswiss said:


> One of the complaints on TAM is people wanting the wayward to be perfect. I agree with little things and sometimes people do overreact wanting perfection. This isn't his wife getting angry and calling him a name in private or slipping up looking at na AP's Facebook profile. Yes, he should let little angry outbursts go. She does get to be emotional, sad, angry, trigger, disappointed, happy and many other things. She doesn't get to disrespect him in this fashion AT ALL. Yes, regardless of another person's opinion who is cool with his wife screaming "divorce" at him because "women are emotional.". So, IMO, the "perfection" red herring was dropped to confuse the issue. Yes, mistakes will be made, but this was a publicly humiliating display in front of their kids, her family and a separate family's child and has nothing to do with "perfection."


You used the term "at all". In other words... None. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Not ever.

Or put another way: perfection is not required, except for the fine print at the bottom of the page in regards to respect.

That sounds an awful lot like perfection to me.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

This whole thing is being overblown.


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## phillybeffandswiss

farsidejunky said:


> To be clear, one time post affair does not a pattern make. You're assertion needs a pattern of behavior for substantiation which, frankly, has not been there post affair.


Okay, this is your line. I don't agree, but at least I understand your argument now.


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## sokillme

farsidejunky said:


> To be clear, one time post affair does not a pattern make. You're assertion needs a pattern of behavior for substantiation which, frankly, has not been there post affair.
> 
> I respectfully disagree with your position.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Um OK believe that if you want, it's about character. She is letting another man raise her kids from an affair. Pretty good indicator of a pattern. Talk about lack of respect. :surprise: This woman is every mans worst nightmare.


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## MattMatt

jld said:


> I think all humans have some pride.
> 
> Having some empathy for his son's feelings would be helpful.
> 
> I think the universe was trying to teach do a lesson through his wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:wtf:



> *The universe was trying to teach do a lesson through his wife?*


 

That sure sounds like some particularly random hippie nonsense, there, right enough.


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## sokillme

jld said:


> This whole thing is being overblown.


You're a troll aren't you? How is this even advice, this was specifically posted to provoke me thinks. :slap:


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## jld

sokillme said:


> What is to understand *children by there very nature are selfish and self centered. * Your job as a parent is to disciple them to get them to understand that this is not a healthy part of their nature. Children are not sophisticated. They need encouragement and disciple.


Adults are, too. We all imperfect.

Do can straighten this out by talking openly with his wife and the kids. 

How old are these kids, anyway? I thought they were four, but someone else said they are nine.


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## jld

sokillme said:


> You're a troll aren't you? How is this even advice, this was specifically posted to provoke me thinks. :slap:


I am the mother of five well-behaved children, sokillme. And I am telling you this whole thing is being overblown.

Swallow your pride, do, and talk to your wife. And talk with your kids, too. Find out their side of things.


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## sokillme

jld said:


> Adults are, too. We all imperfect.
> 
> Do can straighten this out by talking openly with his wife and the kids.
> 
> How old are these kids, anyway? I thought they were four, but someone else said they are nine.


Kids have an excuse because they are kids. They also need adult guidance to learn to control this part of their nature. Stop with the silly red herrings.


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## phillybeffandswiss

farsidejunky said:


> You used the term "at all". In other words... None. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Not ever.
> 
> Or put another way: perfection is not required,


 Like I said, still a red herring. I do not expect someone to be perfect. So, we are saying the same thing, but you are trying to infer things not in my post.



> except for the fine print at the bottom of the page in regards to respect.
> That sounds an awful lot like perfection to me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


 LOL.There is NOTHING in my post which means she has to be perfect.This thread has triggered you for some reason and I'm not going to engage you further in a semantic battle based derail. Respect and perfection can be mutually exclusive or go hand in hand. I'm not sure why saying she disrespected him means she has to be perfect. 

We disagree and that is fine.


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## sokillme

jld said:


> I am the mother of five well-behaved children, sokillme. And I am telling you this whole thing is being overblown.
> 
> Swallow your pride, do, and talk to your wife. And talk with your kids, too. Find out their side of things.


There is that constancy again.

I don't care if you are Mother Teresa, OP has swallowed his pride to the point of killing himself, and there is nothing she can say to justify her side of things. She was totally in the wrong.


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## MattMatt

sokillme said:


> You're a troll aren't you? How is this even advice, this was specifically posted to provoke me thinks. :slap:


Not a troll She is just JLD.

Look, I am an old hippie. 60 next birthday.

And even I knew that the spiel about the universe turning his wife into some kind of zombie-bot to punish him was... well, nothing but hippie nonsense.


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## jld

MattMatt said:


> Not a troll She is just JLD.
> 
> Look, I am an old hippie. 60 next birthday.
> 
> And even I knew that the spiel about the universe turning his wife into some kind of zombie-bot to punish him was... well, nothing but hippie nonsense.


I do not think it is hippie nonsense. She had probably just had it with him. She even apologized later and tried to talk about it.

I think she is quite patient.


----------



## jld

sokillme said:


> There is that constancy again.
> 
> I don't care if you are Mother Teresa, OP has swallowed his pride to the point of killing himself, and there is nothing she can say to justify her side of things. She was totally in the wrong.


She has apologized. She tried to talk to him. What more can she do?


----------



## MattMatt

jld said:


> I do not think it is hippie nonsense. She had probably just had it with him. She even apologized later and tried to talk about it.
> 
> I think she is quite patient.


The universe did not use her to send him a message.

*That *was hippie nonsense. And you should know better.


----------



## jld

sokillme said:


> Kids have an excuse because they are kids. They also need adult guidance to learn to control this part of their nature. Stop with the silly red herrings.


To solve problems you have to understand where they come from. This is not a matter of controlling anyone's behavior. Reaching the heart is the way to truly change behavior.


----------



## jld

MattMatt said:


> The universe did not use her to send him a message.
> 
> *That *was hippie nonsense. And you should know better.


I think the universe sends us messages all the time. And I think one was sent to do.

We may just have to agree to disagree on this, MM.


----------



## MattMatt

DO, how is your wife usually with you when you discipline the twins?

Does she harbour any residual: "Well, he's not the *real* father of my children" feelings?

I hope not, but I thought I should ask the question.


----------



## MattMatt

jld said:


> I think the universe sends us messages all the time. And I think one was sent to do.
> 
> We may just have to agree to disagree on this, MM.


Yes. I think we probably will.


----------



## Marc878

jld said:


> I do not think it is hippie nonsense. She had probably just had it with him. She even apologized later and tried to talk about it.
> 
> I think she is quite patient.


This was just a symptom of the underlying issue. You are quite naive.


----------



## jld

Marc878 said:


> This was just a symptom of the underlying issue. You are quite naive.


If he talks to her, which I hope is his next step, he can find out whatever underlying issue might be there. It is very important to get communication going.


----------



## Hope1964

Good lord jld, here you are again in CWI handing out your ridiculous advice. Honestly, it IS ridiculous. You really have no clue what you're talking about.


----------



## Absurdist

farsidejunky said:


> You used the term "at all". In other words... None. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Not ever.
> 
> Or put another way: perfection is not required, except for the fine print at the bottom of the page in regards to respect.
> 
> That sounds an awful lot like perfection to me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk



Maybe this is just me, a guy that has had a near perfect wife for four decades.

I don't see the disrespect here. What I do see is a Mama with four year old twins bouncing around like little pinballs who've driven Mama to distraction. What I see is an inappropriate reaction by Mama to the frustration of the moment. What I see is a Mama who needs to learn how to control her anger (don't we all?).

All I see is the fuse of the day finally hitting the dynamite. What I see is a complete reaction to a bad situation. DO just happened to be in the way at the time.

I don't see disrespect of DO.

This has nothing to do with infidelity. Anyone who says otherwise is simply projecting their own emotions.


----------



## GusPolinski

Absurdist said:


> Maybe this is just me, a guy that has had a near perfect wife for four decades.
> 
> I don't see the disrespect here. What I do see is a Mama with four year old twins bouncing around like little pinballs who've driven Mama to distraction. What I see is an inappropriate reaction by Mama to the frustration of the moment. What I see is a Mama who needs to learn how to control her anger (don't we all?).
> 
> All I see is the fuse of the day finally hitting the dynamite. What I see is a complete reaction to a bad situation. DO just happened to be in the way at the time.
> 
> I don't see disrespect of DO.
> 
> This has nothing to do with infidelity. Anyone who says otherwise is simply projecting their own emotions.


Eh... kind of depends on what she was screaming at him.

Ever heard of a woman telling her husband (w/ respect to her child or children from a previous marriage) "You're not <his/her/their> father!" ...?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

Absurdist said:


> Maybe this is just me, a guy that has had a near perfect wife for four decades.
> 
> I don't see the disrespect here. What I do see is a Mama with four year old twins bouncing around like little pinballs who've driven Mama to distraction. What I see is an inappropriate reaction by Mama to the frustration of the moment. What I see is a Mama who needs to learn how to control her anger (don't we all?).
> 
> All I see is the fuse of the day finally hitting the dynamite. What I see is a complete reaction to a bad situation. DO just happened to be in the way at the time.
> 
> I don't see disrespect of DO.
> 
> This has nothing to do with infidelity. Anyone who says otherwise is simply projecting their own emotions.


QFT.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

Absurdist said:


> Maybe this is just me, a guy that has had a near perfect wife for four decades.
> 
> I don't see the disrespect here. What I do see is a Mama with four year old twins bouncing around like little pinballs who've driven Mama to distraction. What I see is an inappropriate reaction by Mama to the frustration of the moment. What I see is a Mama who needs to learn how to control her anger (don't we all?).
> 
> All I see is the fuse of the day finally hitting the dynamite. What I see is a complete reaction to a bad situation. DO just happened to be in the way at the time.
> 
> I don't see disrespect of DO.
> 
> This has nothing to do with infidelity. Anyone who says otherwise is simply projecting their own emotions.


Obviously you're not up on the full story.


----------



## EI

farsidejunky said:


> I don't see it the same.
> 
> DO triggered. That simple. The difference is that DO is a very sensitive man, and that is not a negative BTW. I understand this well because I am very much the same way.
> 
> My current wife has not cheated on me, so I see this as a bit of an overreaction based on the history of cheating. However, I have been in this position when my wife and I had a broken dynamic. I had a similar reaction, and rather than remaining calm, my fight/flight reaction triggered, and I chose to fight. I verbally smashed her.
> 
> Now, was she wrong for being disrespectful? Yep. Was I wrong for verbally smashing her? Yep. The proper response would have been to calmly but firmly tell her, "I am not okay with your tone" and then address it later, one on one.
> 
> So what actually happened? DO triggers. Then we have a series of folks stepping in to fan the flames with talk of how this is a result of the affair, or the children, or her gas lighting, or her "well hidden" lack of respect. Rather than encouraging DO to take a moment to calm down, reflect on how he triggered, encouraging him to own his trigger, AND THEN tell him to hold his wife accountable for her showing a lack of respect, people instead proceed to tell DO to divorce, leave, she never really respected him, etc...bringing gasoline to put out a fire.
> 
> Yes, what his wife did in her affair was heinous, but let's not make this incident about more than it is. DO triggered. Let him own it, THEN hold his wife accountable for her actions.
> 
> And news flash, folks: DO was not the only one that triggered...
> 
> @drifting on:
> 
> I am looking forward to that PM. Take a deep breath, let the anxiety pass, and then act.


farside, this is one of the best posts I've ever read on TAM. In your response to a much beloved TAM poster, whose story epitomizes many BH's greatest fears, you managed to cut through all of the complexities and get straight to heart of the matter. 

I thought about posting something similar, but I do not possess the gift of summarizing this many details with the precise accuracy in which you nailed this one. 

:allhail:


----------



## turnera

jld said:


> I do not think it is hippie nonsense. She had probably just had it with him. She even apologized later and tried to talk about it.
> 
> I think she is quite patient.


Had WHAT with him? Watching him try to get his kid to keep his nose in the corner for two minutes? THAT was worth humiliating him? THAT was so egregious that she blew up?

That event wasn't about him. It was about her, her ego, her entitledness, and her image.

In this instance, she had NO REASON to have 'had it' with him.


----------



## Absurdist

Marc878 said:


> Obviously you're not up on the full story.



And obviously you have no idea of what I have read and what I haven't.

And I have read every post DO has ever written on this board...


----------



## MattMatt

turnera2 said:


> Had WHAT with him? Watching him try to get his kid to keep his nose in the corner for two minutes? THAT was worth humiliating him? THAT was so egregious that she blew up?
> 
> That event wasn't about him. It was about her, her ego, her entitledness, and her image.
> 
> In this instance, she had NO REASON to have 'had it' with him.


Unless there's stuff happening that is, as yet, unknown?

Illicit contact with the sperm donor?

Or she suddenly having a rush of blood to the head thinking: "Wait! He is not the father of my kids! I'll teach him not to... Oh, s**t! What the hell did I just do?"


----------



## sokillme

Absurdist said:


> Maybe this is just me, a guy that has had a near perfect wife for four decades.
> 
> I don't see the disrespect here. What I do see is a Mama with four year old twins bouncing around like little pinballs who've driven Mama to distraction. What I see is an inappropriate reaction by Mama to the frustration of the moment. What I see is a Mama who needs to learn how to control her anger (don't we all?).
> 
> All I see is the fuse of the day finally hitting the dynamite. What I see is a complete reaction to a bad situation. DO just happened to be in the way at the time.
> 
> I don't see disrespect of DO.
> 
> This has nothing to do with infidelity. Anyone who says otherwise is simply projecting their own emotions.


I can see why you say your wife was near perfect. If you don't see an issue with a SO going off on you in front of your family you are pretty easy going. No offense.


----------



## sokillme

DO may very well be sensitive. He is also extremely conflict avoidant to the point of letting himself be bullied. Don't mistake this for being loving or even kind. It's not the same thing. It is actually not a healthy or honest way to be in a relationship.


----------



## Absurdist

sokillme said:


> I can see why you say your wife was near perfect. If you don't see an issue with a SO going off on you in front of your family you are pretty easy going. No offense.


Why would I take offense? Consider this:

A _non sequitur_, in formal logic, is an argument with a conclusion that does not follow from its premises.

I am a mammal. A dolphin is a mammal. Therefore I am a dolphin. Obvious that the conclusion does not follow from the facts given.

This entire thread is one _non sequitur_ after another.

DO's wife gets pi$$ed.
DO's wife explodes at DO.
Wife's outburst is related to her prior affair.

There is no rational basis to connect the two events but many on this board _want to do so_ because that's their paradigm.


----------



## BobSimmons

MattMatt said:


> Does she harbour any residual: "Well, he's not the *real* father of my children" feelings?
> (


Hadn't caught up on the back story.. (yikes)

But having heard the back story fleshes out the scenario quite a bit and this is also a thought that came to mind.

Ultimately, no matter what papers were signed and how much she professes or maybe truly believes in her heart of hearts, buried deep down is the unshakable truth that the kids are not his.

OP said it was out of character and that she'd only disrespected him twice, except this seems to be entirely in character as in, she's a human being and as such she's allowed to change, grow or regress.

Again, her actions seemed to point to built up resentment. The question is not only why did she do what she did but why did she feel in the heat of the moment to conduct and express herself in that manner.


----------



## turnera

Absurdist said:


> Why would I take offense? Consider this:
> 
> A _non sequitur_, in formal logic, is an argument with a conclusion that does not follow from its premises.
> 
> I am a mammal. A dolphin is a mammal. Therefore I am a dolphin. Obvious that the conclusion does not follow from the facts given.
> 
> This entire thread is one _non sequitur_ after another.
> 
> DO's wife gets pi$$ed.
> DO's wife explodes at DO.
> Wife's outburst is related to her prior affair.
> 
> There is no rational basis to connect the two events but many on this board _want to do so_ because that's their paradigm.


Actually, I DO see a connection: the fact that he took her back despite what she did = the fact that she feels safe to humiliate him.


----------



## sokillme

Absurdist said:


> Why would I take offense? Consider this:
> 
> A _non sequitur_, in formal logic, is an argument with a conclusion that does not follow from its premises.
> 
> I am a mammal. A dolphin is a mammal. Therefore I am a dolphin. Obvious that the conclusion does not follow from the facts given.
> 
> This entire thread is one _non sequitur_ after another.
> 
> DO's wife gets pi$$ed.
> DO's wife explodes at DO.
> Wife's outburst is related to her prior affair.
> 
> There is no rational basis to connect the two events but many on this board _want to do so_ because that's their paradigm.



You really don't get it. It's related in the fact that she consistently treats him poorly. It just continues the toxic nature of their relationship.

More like Predator eats other animals. Lion is a predator, Lion eats other animals, If animal hangs out with lion it will eventually, at the very least, get bitten.


----------



## Duguesclin

Kivlor said:


> I definitely think it was bad form to let your W's behavior go unaddressed immediately. That said, if you couldn't keep it together without "blowing up" on her, probably best to wait. In the future OP, I'd take a situation like that--if you can keep your cool for the most part--and look to your W and say "Wife, I need you to step outside. Now." And then tell your boys "You 2, stay put. If I find you've moved when your Mom and I come back, we're going home."
> 
> Then take your W outside, and tersely explain that this kind of disrespectful behavior isn't going to be tolerated; and that you need to show a united front to your children, not a divided one. Something like "Wife, I need you to not act like that in front of the kids and in front of company. It sends the wrong message to everyone." Then decide what you will do with the kids when you come back inside, and do it.
> 
> If you come back in and the kids haven't obeyed, pack up the family and go home.
> 
> Command the respect of your family D.O.


I think when his wife saw how he disciplined their son and did not agree with it, she should have kept her calm, gotten up and told her husband to step outside with her to deal with his poor behavior towards their son.

How do you think DO would have reacted?


----------



## farsidejunky

sokillme said:


> You really don't get it. It's related in the fact that she consistently treats him poorly. It just continues the toxic nature of their relationship.
> 
> More like Predator eats other animals. Lion is a predator, Lion eats other animals, If animal hangs out with lion it will eventually, at the very least, get bitten.


When has DO ever said she consistently treats him poorly? In fact, he has said on multiple occasions the exact opposite. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Kivlor

Duguesclin said:


> I think when his wife saw how he disciplined their son and did not agree with it, she should have kept her calm, gotten up and told her husband to step outside with her to deal with his poor behavior towards their son.
> 
> How do you think DO would have reacted?


Both could have reacted better. DO's W could have prevented the whole situation, by doing just that. But then, DO could have responded just the way she should have, in order to set it straight. They should have been able to figure out together how they would proceed with disciplining the kids.

It's almost always best to deal with these situations without involving other people--which is why OP was right to feel upset over the situation. And either way, correcting parenting techniques really needs to be done in private, IMO. Doing otherwise creates a situation where the kids will realize they can play the parents against each other in the future.

Similarly, issues between spouses don't need to be handled in front of family or friends, unless there is some imminent threat to the safety of someone.


----------



## sokillme

farsidejunky said:


> When has DO ever said she consistently treats him poorly? In fact, he has said on multiple occasions the exact opposite.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


He is RAISING another mans kids? Just to get to that point is beyond horrendous. Look at his title he say she humiliated him. No one should be staying with someone who humiliates them. Again if this was physical abuse none of you would be encouraging him to stay. I think it is just as morally wrong to encourage him to stay when there has been so much emotional abuse.


----------



## drifting on

Just wanted to let you all know I am still around and reading the thread. I owe each and every one of you this for giving me your time and attention along with posting your advice and opinions. I thank all of you for posting. 

The past couple of nights my wife and I have been discussing this incident. We are making progress, but it wouldn't be prudent of me to update you all quite yet. There are still some issues to resolve and I have taken farsides advice to breathe and allow the anxiety to dissipate. 

I will however, answer a few of the questions asked that are somewhat easy to answer. Please give me a few moments to go back and quote these questions to answer. 

The twins ages have been brought up, and they are 4, they will turn 5 at the end of September.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

turnera2 said:


> Isn't that the problem, though? I've seen no indication that she DOES fear he may leave her, except maybe this last conversation.
> 
> DO? Does she?




This has been her biggest fear since I offered reconciliation to her. She is very afraid I will either leave, tell her I can't get through reconciliation, or that I will go find someone else. Second only to divorce is she fears a revenge affair that will be an exit affair. I'm not having a revenge affair, any affair, and definitely not an exit affair. I have placed all that I have in reconciliation, frankly more then I ever thought I could, she has done the same, it has been a mutual goal for both of us since we started reconciliation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

soccermom2three said:


> Drifting, has she volunteered to call everyone and apologize for her outburst? Would that help?




Her mom called her on Monday, told her she was wrong and disrespectful. She knew she was wrong the moment the words left her lips is what she told her mom. She has apologized to her mom and sister at the moment. She has also apologized to me even though that wasn't asked, but you should know she has to me as well. 

Does it help? I don't know truthfully, I'm not trying to be a jerk here but at best I can think she owes them an apology for her outburst but how does that apply to me? If you're asking dies it make me feel better, then no, I don't see the connection for apologizing to her mother when the outburst was directed at me. Her mom may care less if she apologizes to her, she didn't project her outburst at her mom to begin with. I also don't see that apologizing would cause her humiliation or shame, her outburst was projected at me only. I guess you could say I'm confused by your question.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

VladDracul said:


> Back when I was a kid and for a while thereafter, the parents would have heated up the seat of their pants. There wasn't a lot of kids talking back to their parents.




This was true of the household I grew up in. I am strict, a disciplinarian, if my niece were here she would tell you how much discipline I enforce on kids. My niece was a bit of a wild child, until she was around me. If I was there you only had to call her once as opposed to waiting for the wall to answer you. At fifteen we took this niece in as her mom was struggling. She did very well school wise, enrolled in college when she didn't plan to, and is now a CNA going for her nursing degree. When she came to stay with us she had zero plans to attend college, and now she is well on her way to a better future. She isn't my child either, but if she wanted to stay by us she needed to have a purpose in life after high school, and getting a job wasn't good enough, she had to pick a career.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

jld said:


> This whole thing is being overblown.




Here is how I view this, on the thread, much said that is not grounded in reality. In real life, or perhaps in my marriage, it's not being overblown. 

I will tell you this jld, I was wrong to not speak of this Sunday evening with my wife. However, my anger had turned to rage and I can tell you it would have been an ugly and perhaps a final argument in the marriage. So I opted to wait until my feet were firmly on the ground and swinging wildly like my emotions were. You may not agree with this but I didn't think waiting one night to talk would be wrong to do. I thought it to be best that both of us have control over our emotions rather then risk a huge brawl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

Absurdist said:


> And obviously you have no idea of what I have read and what I haven't.
> 
> And I have read every post DO has ever written on this board...




Truly humbled Absurdist, truly humbled.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soccermom2three

drifting on said:


> Her mom called her on Monday, told her she was wrong and disrespectful. She knew she was wrong the moment the words left her lips is what she told her mom. She has apologized to her mom and sister at the moment. She has also apologized to me even though that wasn't asked, but you should know she has to me as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Does it help? I don't know truthfully, I'm not trying to be a jerk here but at best I can think she owes them an apology for her outburst but how does that apply to me? If you're asking dies it make me feel better, then no, I don't see the connection for apologizing to her mother when the outburst was directed at me. Her mom may care less if she apologizes to her, she didn't project her outburst at her mom to begin with. I also don't see that apologizing would cause her humiliation or shame, her outburst was projected at me only. I guess you could say I'm confused by your question.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Maybe apologize was not the right word. I guess more that she was out of line and was wrong.


----------



## citygirl4344

drifting on said:


> Here is how I view this, on the thread, much said that is not grounded in reality. In real life, or perhaps in my marriage, it's not being overblown.
> 
> 
> 
> I will tell you this jld, I was wrong to not speak of this Sunday evening with my wife. However, my anger had turned to rage and I can tell you it would have been an ugly and perhaps a final argument in the marriage. So I opted to wait until my feet were firmly on the ground and swinging wildly like my emotions were. You may not agree with this but I didn't think waiting one night to talk would be wrong to do. I thought it to be best that both of us have control over our emotions rather then risk a huge brawl.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I've followed your thread and first I have to commend you on staying for the kids. I think many would have been gone...so for this I commend you.

I think you were right to cool down. Speaking in rage and anger can do way more damage than good.

Sounds like your wife might be just as frustrated in the marriage as you are. That was quite the over reaction I think.

I haven't read your other threads but I get the gist of what's going on...are you both in therapy?

I think there is no real answer here...you do what you do. One day at a time. You made a choice now you are trying to make it work. I think every argument is going to be a bit worse than it would have been if this was not the situation.
I'd be prepared for some even worse reactions and arguments in the future.

Someone asked about the rights you have to the kids of things do get bad between you and your wife and you separate. Do you know what the rights are?


----------



## jld

drifting on said:


> Here is how I view this, on the thread, much said that is not grounded in reality. In real life, or perhaps in my marriage, it's not being overblown.
> 
> I will tell you this jld, I was wrong to not speak of this Sunday evening with my wife. However, my anger had turned to rage and I can tell you it would have been an ugly and perhaps a final argument in the marriage. So I opted to wait until my feet were firmly on the ground and swinging wildly like my emotions were. You may not agree with this but I didn't think waiting one night to talk would be wrong to do. I thought it to be best that both of us have control over our emotions rather then risk a huge brawl.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you told your wife all this, do? Have you had a thorough talk about the incident in the days since?

In the future you may want to say something like, "If I talk right now I may say things I will regret. I want to be my best self for you, and I cannot be that in my present emotional state."

Otoh, do . . . 

Sometimes just speaking transparently can get emotion out that needs to be gotten out. Maybe your wife needs to see the raw you. I don't think holding back emotion is necessarily a good idea. It tends to come out somewhere. And it sounds like it came out for your wife the other night.

If you cannot forgive the affair, you cannot forgive it. Not everyone can. You would be doing both of you a favor by being transparent about it.

Your wife needs to be able to be raw with you, too, do. Her family sounds unhealthy, like they are trying to protect your pride and hold the marriage together. A healthy family would look past pride to the roots of the outburst, and then have a respectful discussion on it, considering both sides' feelings and trying to be a bridge for the couple in understanding each other.

A marriage has to hold itself together, do. The couple have to be strong enough to be transparent and understanding and compassionate of each other's transparency. I am not surprised your counselor asked you if you had sufficient strength and love to see this through. Very good questions.

Do, have you ever talked with your wife about the affair from the standpoint of what it did for her? Not through your anger, but from her heartfelt perspective, what it meant to her? Has she ever felt safe enough to just be candid with you? Not having to protect your feelings at all?

I do not see how a marriage can be strong without transparency. She cannot check her emotions forever. The other day proved it.


----------



## VladDracul

drifting on said:


> Does it help? I don't know truthfully, I'm not trying to be a jerk here but at best I can think she owes them an apology for her outburst but how does that apply to me?


In my view she owes an apology to a lot of folks. The fact that she apologize to you has value. I don't see her apology to others as diminishing her apology to you. What would be worse and a total insult is her apologizing to others and leaving you flapping in the wind. The message there would be load and clear. 
All said, just don't be like my SIL whose husband subsequently apologized each time he slapped her around. Similarly verbal abuse is like physical abuse that tends to continue if not brought to a complete halt. If it were me, I'd tell her the next time will be the last time.


----------



## Be smart

Your wife was wrong when she yelled and disrespected you in front of other people and ESPECIALLY your kids and you should not "give her time" to talk with her therapist about this. This is not something you forget all of the sudden. She spent 20-25 years with you so she knows what respect means in Marriage.

Your kids are learning from your actions and if they saw their mom yelling at their father they will not take your word serious. I am speaking in long term my friend. 

Maybe your wife had a bad day or felt pressure but she crossed the line here. Also your reaction to all of this shows me you are leting her to walk all over you without any real consequences.

Stay strong.


----------



## just got it 55

The most meaningful apology would be in front of the same group

I'm sorry DO I was disrespectful and out of line 

For everybody to hear.

But obviously The best apology is better behavior.

DO don't listen to anyone telling you you are weak

55


----------



## turnera

drifting on said:


> This has been her biggest fear since I offered reconciliation to her. She is very afraid I will either leave, tell her I can't get through reconciliation, or that I will go find someone else. Second only to divorce is she fears a revenge affair that will be an exit affair. I'm not having a revenge affair, any affair, and definitely not an exit affair. I have placed all that I have in reconciliation, frankly more then I ever thought I could, she has done the same, it has been a mutual goal for both of us since we started reconciliation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry, but that doesn't jive with what she did. Unless she has toxic shame and just blew up because of that (it's hard to control). If I was afraid my H would leave, it would be on my mind every single day, and you can BET I'd never blow up at him.

I think she's just giving you lip service.


----------



## Archangel2

DO - Do mother-in-law and sister-in-law know about her affair?


----------



## jld

She needs to get over her fear of your leaving. Decisions made out of fear are often unwise.

People should be together because they want to be together, not because one is scared to be without the other.


----------



## Archangel2

drifting on said:


> ...A thought came to my mind to say, your affair was enough disrespect to me, don't ever speak to me in that manner again...


DO - In your subsequent conversations, have you made this point to her? To be the devil's advocate for a moment, maybe you need to really shake her up. Maybe you should ask her if that episode reflected what was in her heart of hearts, that you are not your sons' father and never will be.


----------



## weltschmerz

DO, don't want to make you sad but, in her eyes, you aren't the kids' dad and you probably never will be - not completely at least. I'm guessing she feels like she has more right to discipline them than you do. Can't really empathise with your situation as I've never been there but you're going to wake up one day and realise that the older you get the less likely you'll be able to have children of your own and then you'll think back on the past with a lot of regrets. I tell you this not in a condescending, told you so - way, but because I know a man who had to deal with sh!t and he still bears the scars.


----------



## BobSimmons

turnera2 said:


> I'm sorry, but that doesn't jive with what she did. Unless she has toxic shame and just blew up because of that (it's hard to control). *If I was afraid my H would leave, it would be on my mind every single day, and you can BET I'd never blow up at him.
> *
> I think she's just giving you lip service.


Agreed but even if it was toxic shame, I still content it went far further that being an outburst. She slammed her hand down, not only the release of that pent up energy but it signifies ENOUGH and focuses everyone's attention squarely on her.
Now everyone is looking at her, you have a beat to think and compose what you want to say and how you say it fully aware you have an audience, she still let him have it.

If I fear a rottweiler biting me, the last thing I do is smack it in the head.

Truthfully he's signed up to taking care of the kids, even if they divorce he's still going to pay for them. She may fear he's going to leave but in her heart of hearts she doesn't believe it will happen.


----------



## drifting on

Quick update; we have spoken at length about what happened last Sunday. There has been opinions in this thread that are not true but I appreciate the fact that many are giving me a different perspective then what I may have thought of. My thoughts have slowed down and they are not racing like they had been. I was wrong in many ways in how I handled this situation, that I will improve upon. 

Disciplining the boys has been brought up on the thread, this is not the issue. My wife welcomes discipline that is not abuse, she has turned to me countless times for either input or to outright discipline the boys. This is not to say I don't, we both discipline and issue time outs evenly and as needed. I am strict, with many rules and guidelines we teach to the boys, she is in agreement with these. 

On that day she was overwhelmed, tired, and just received very concerning news about her sister. It is not my place to speak of her sisters issues here, but I can say I'm very concerned for her also. The boys were very unruly and not listening, they did not get a nap and the night before did not go to bed until midnight. We had taken the boys the night before to the drive in to see finding dory. She was short on sleep as were the boys and I, I worked on Sunday and she had no help. I can tell you I have been where she was at, at your wits end and the boys adding fuel, I too have lost my patience. Am I protecting her, I don't see it that way, I can empathize with how she felt. Her actions were still wrong, and I have informed her she should have gone for a walk as she saw I was handling the situation. Many are saying to wake up, many say to kick her out of my life, many are saying that she will harm me in the future, and I can only say marriage doesn't come with a guarantee on the back of your marriage license. 

I am here each day with her, I do not believe she will harm me with an affair. She will not harm me and take the boys from my life, I am awake and know exactly what is happening in my marriage and reconciliation. With what I have seen her do in reconciliation is amazing, may not be to you, but I see it each day. Many here feel she should not have been given the gift of reconciliation, but by no means am I perfect. I make mistakes, I make errors, and I've had many oh crap moments as well. She did not kick me to the curb, she did not say I can't improve, but rather she accepted that I am fallible too. My transgressions were not on the level of hers, but she did forgive the transgressions I committed to the marriage and her. 

I have forgiven her affair, I have not used it in an argument with her, the affair has been brought up when we are speaking of that specific time period. Even then it is not used in a vile way, it is used to learn from. Ssturday I had to work also, and as I drive to work a car pulled out in front of me. It was the same as OM's car, and I triggered hard and unexpectedly. For a brief moment I actually thought it was OM, and I wanted to run the car off the road. When I got home Saturday from work we were busy and her mom was over, we did not have a chance to talk. We then went to the drive in with friends and family, still no time to talk. When we arrived home, everyone went to bed. On Sunday the incident happened and I combined it with the affair. I was wrong, and two posters have told me I should have kept the affair and outburst separate. Both of these posters are correct, and I thank both of you for pointing this out to me. Numerous posters have said I neede to own my trigger, and they are also correct, I didn't and then further erred by combining it with the affair. 

Many here may say I'm weak and that she has had no consequences. She has had numerous consequences for her actions. To say I am weak and conflict avoidant would be wrong. But I refuse to sit and play keyboard tough guy to try to dispel these opinions, those who know me would tell you otherwise. I am comfortable in my skin, I don't get walked on, I engage what needs to be engaged and ignore what doesn't. On Sunday I was in a bad place, didn't engage as it would have been fueling a fire that never should have been. I instead chose to wait until calmer heads could prevail and speak rationally instead of negative emotions. I was wrong to not say anything, but I know my response would have done more harm then good. It would have been ignorant of me to respond in the same manner in front of the boys and family. 

For those who want to tear apart this update is fine. I am in this and can see all that she does, I couldn't possibly put all of that here. I could write for hours about all the good she does, but I get the impression many here could not be open to that. What she did was brutal, but she is also changing to become a better person, even though I am protecting myself, I am open to see her change and grow. For some to say she is an abuser is your opinion, for some to say she is every mans biggest fear is your opinion, I can tell you she is not an abuser, she is a human being who is fallible. In many ways she does good, and in those ways I am fortunate to have her as my wife. She is still flawed, but she is finding ways to be better, and that is a big part of why I stay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

I want to take the time briefly to say thank you to everyone who has posted. It means a great deal to me that I was given different perspectives to look at, some I didn't see at all. But each of you took time from your busy life to help me, a faceless screen name and person you have never met. I say thank you to everyone, hope you all have a safe and fun holiday weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

Just an aside. Are you listed at the twin's father? Are they adopted by you? Or is that not an option?

So, your wife got tired, jumped up, started flailing round, roaring and then found everyone looking at her going: :wtf:

Oops! Well, that happens, sometimes!


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## BobSimmons

The man seems to have it under control. His life, his rules.

A bit confused why he posted though?


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## VladDracul

He probably got blindside Bobby. If there is a next time, he'll have something in his tool box. And like you say, what he does with it is his prerogative.


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## NotEasy

BobSimmons said:


> The man seems to have it under control. His life, his rules.
> 
> A bit confused why he posted though?


Yes, sounds like the combination of his trigger and his wifes stress caused them both to over-react. Hopefully they have now talked it through and will handle it a little better next time.


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## jld

BobSimmons said:


> The man seems to have it under control. His life, his rules.
> 
> A bit confused why he posted though?[/B]


I am wondering, too.

DO, what were you looking for? Sympathy?

It seems your wife tried to give you that. Is it not enough?

It is certainly fine if it is not. We all need different levels of support. Just curious, is all.


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## MattMatt

Years and years after my wife's affair her ex OM began visiting a house over the road. 

That triggered me.

But his friends moved and he hasn't been seen since. Thank goodness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

jld said:


> I am wondering, too.
> 
> DO, what were you looking for? Sympathy?
> 
> It seems your wife tried to give you that. Is it not enough?
> 
> It is certainly fine if it is not. We all need different levels of support. Just curious, is all.


He wanted help in Coping With Infidelity.

The after effects of infidelity rarely leave us. They lessen over time but never fully leave us.

JLD you appear to be becoming somewhat argumentative of late?

Is there some help that you are needing? I am being serious.

In general people can get all kinds of help on TAM.

However a therapist trained and skilled in various types of Talking Therapy might be of benefit to you. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

He triggered, folks. Badly. What he needed was someone to talk him off the ledge.

No more, no less.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jld

MattMatt said:


> He wanted help in Coping With Infidelity.
> 
> The after effects of infidelity rarely leave us. They lessen over time but never fully leave us.
> 
> JLD you appear to be becoming somewhat argumentative of late?
> 
> Is there some help that you are needing? I am being serious.
> 
> In general people can get all kinds of help on TAM.
> 
> However a therapist trained and skilled in various types of Talking Therapy might be of benefit to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Funny, I was thinking all these things about you, MM.


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## NotEasy

DO, you posted somewhere that you have talked this through with your wife. I wonder if it may be good to talk about both your over-reactions, your trigger and her stress. Then set ground rules for you two that similiar stresses will be reported to each other, as top priority. 
I know there was no time, you probably didn't realise how badly you triggered while in the trigger, and she didn't realise how stressed she was until she yelled at you; but blow-ups like this are better avoided. Maybe you agree to just tell each other you feeling tense, or you agree to cancel visits when stressed, or you talk it through at night regardless of how tired you are. I don't know what feels right to you. I don't want to suggest a style or rule for you, but, my wife and I have a rule that we can have discussions late into the night/morning. She can prod me if I fall asleep and we will get up if needed. I have told her I will call in sick if that is what is needed so we can have an important talk. This is our rule as my wife seems to need to talk things through at night. You two should probably have different rules. But I feel the blow-up might have been avoided with a short talk beforehand.
This all seems too obvious as I write it. Your MC should have explained your triggers to her and that you both will be more tender on occassion and will over-react sometimes and that your marriage after the affair is different and it needs different rules. Sorry if I am stating the obvious. 
Maybe it was just the planets were aligned badly and you both over-reacted and it will never happen again. Or maybe this is a chance to build a sturdier marriage.


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## jld

I think blow ups are actually really good. They are a chance to air everything out and get to the heart of perhaps unrealized hurt and fear.


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## Be smart

Your wife has to understand that you are equal Parent. You are Father to your little kids so you have the same rights just like her. 

Yelling at you because her sister got some problems is so wrong. 
Imagine if we do this all the time,someone at our job make us angry and we go home and yell at our spouse. Our brother or sister are having problems so it give us right to yell and disrespect our Wife or Husband.


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## jld

Be smart said:


> Your wife has to understand that you are equal Parent. You are Father to your little kids so you have the same rights just like her.
> 
> Yelling at you because her sister got some problems is so wrong.
> Imagine if we do this all the time,someone at our job make us angry and we go home and yell at our spouse. *Our brother or sister are having problems so it give us right to yell and disrespect our Wife or Husband*.


It is not about being "right." No one said yelling at a spouse is "right." 

But it happens. And the best way to deal with it, at least imo, is to look at what is triggering it, and address that root cause.


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## TeddieG

jld said:


> It is not about being "right." No one said yelling at a spouse is "right."
> 
> But it happens. And the best way to deal with it, at least imo, is to look at what is triggering it, and address that root cause.


Um, I THINK that's what DO has done and his wife have done, but first he needed to come here and open his emotional overflow valve and let off some steam, and then get some perspective. These things are more complicated in reconciliation, jld, after an affair than they might otherwise be. And I think DO's wife at a very basic level is dysfunctional. People here have called DO co-dependent, but there is something seriously dysfunctional and broken when a woman can pass off her pregnancy and children as her husband's when they're not. 

I am really glad for you and Dug that you can see the world in black and white, but once a spouse has an affair (and produces kids from it to boot) black and white formulas don't work every time there's an issue. There's an emotional mine-field potentially surrounding either partner. 

So you basically just summed up what DO came here to do and what was accomplished, but he needed help, not a primer in how to talk to or correct children. The elephant in the room that someone already identified is that whatever may or may not have been going on with DO's wife, she DID have an affair, the kids are not biologically his (although I would argue they are in every other way), and while this was a trigger for both of them, triggers are the outcome of infidelity. And the big question is, are they going to get to the point where DO doesn't have to have the mind movie of a plane flying over the skyscrapers of his mind bearing a banner (and his wife's voice coming out of it) that says "stop that, they're not yours." Former WS's are not perfect but no former BS should be punished for his or her decision to stay with the cheater and his/her offspring.


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## just got it 55

MY feeling in all this

The weight of the truth is crushing her soul

And.....It seems to me that DO is the kind of man to try to put that weight on his own soul along with his own.

DO be careful of this own your own weight ONLY

55


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## TeddieG

just got it 55 said:


> MY feeling in all this
> 
> The weight of the truth is crushing her soul
> 
> And.....It seems to me that DO is the kind of man to try to put that weight on his own soul along with his own.
> 
> DO be careful of this own your own weight ONLY
> 
> 55


Could not agree more. No one knows what is going on inside another person's head and heart, and no matter what she says about the issues with her sister, lack of sleep, whatever, the trigger for her was him disciplining THEIR child.


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## MattMatt

jld said:


> Funny, I was thinking all these things about you, MM.


I doubt that you were, really.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on

It's one in the morning and I have some brief time on my hands. I'm not even really sure where to start on where this thread has gone. I guess the proper place to start would be with two posts, @BobSimmons and @jld. No I didn't come here for sympathy, I needed help, different perspectives as I couldn't think this through on my own with racing thoughts. I handled things terribly, from my trigger to not saying what @turnera had suggested so eloquently. There was a way to say something at the time it happened, but I couldn't, my trigger took over. It took over because I handled it wrong from the start. This has been pointed out to me and I own that. 

Three posters @farsidejunky, @phillybeffandswiss, and @LosingHim I think noticed immediately that I was off, so to say. Farside said there was something more, philly and Losinghim both said that the outburst was to be a separate incident from the affair. I combined them because of the trigger which was my fault. I am nowhere near perfect, I'm human and I make mistakes. Truthfully, I had panic attacks, I didn't even say this in PM's to anyone either. But now you all know, the trigger was hard and fast, I needed help, and then I received the outburst from my wife. I felt like another panic attack was coming, I was angry, and I made another mistake by walking outside without saying anything. I own that as well. 

As for my wife, she had learned her sister was going through financial infidelity because of her brother in law. I don't want to really go further on this, but we have offered for her sister and two kids to live with us if need be. So that is a little on the serious side and my wife (along with myself) are worried for her sister and children. It's not because of the discipline, that I know for sure after talking to my wife. 

Did we both make huge mistakes in the handling of this, yes. Plain and simple both of us just kept pouring gas on the match until we had an explosion. We both have owned our mistakes in this incident, we are placing new strategies into how to handle events like this in the future. We have a word to speak to each other that we can say in front of others that signifies we need to talk now. There will be no waiting, we get up and find a secluded area to talk. Hopefully this will prevent this from happening again, but seeing as this is the first time my wife has done this I am confident we have our solution. 

I have stated numerous times that on threads I speak of how I felt at a given time. It is so the poster on that thread know they are not alone. I post with honesty and from my heart, but I am told I'm weak. I post with vulnerability, since I need to everyday in my everyday life. I didn't do this in my marriage, but by posting this way, it has been both cathartic and more easy for me to be vulnerable in my marriage. How people perceive me here is their opinion, I won't get into multiple posts to change your opinion of who I am. But no, I was hurting and confused, I needed help, a different perspective then what I was seeing, I wasn't seeking validation or sympathy. 

I had thoughts of taking this thread down, but I have decided to leave it. If someone comes here needing help maybe this thread will help them. When infidelity struck me I had never felt so alone, so damaged, yet posters here gave me hope, inspiration, and most importantly support. Since then I've gotten my feet back underneath me, sort of learned to walk again without very much assistance. But if needed, I know I can come here and get help if I need to, and that is what I did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

@drifting on This should be our safe place.

It is sad when there are people who come to attack other members like drifting on who need, in effect, to be talked down from the high structure they find themselves on.

I am glad that you decided not to pull your thread.

But I am upset that you found yourself in a situation on TAM where you even had to consider that. Because that is a truly shameful situation to have been thrust upon you. 

Drifting on if you need support, help, sympathy or just someone to lean on for a short while, we will be here for you.

For anyone else who does not want to offer you help? There's always the 'ignore' option for you to use. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

MattMatt said:


> @drifting on This should be our safe place.
> 
> It is sad when there are people who come to attack other members like drifting on who need, in effect, to be talked down from the high structure they find themselves on.
> 
> I am glad that you decided not to pull your thread.
> 
> But I am upset that you found yourself in a situation on TAM where you even had to consider that. Because that is a truly shameful situation to have been thrust upon you.
> 
> Drifting on if you need support, help, sympathy or just someone to lean on for a short while, we will be here for you.
> 
> For anyone else who does not want to offer you help? There's always the 'ignore' option for you to use.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can also start a social group and invite people whose advice you find helpful. Or you could be specific if you want to limit what posters say, such as Agreement Only, or Only Post if You (list of qualifications). 

For my part, I have said the same things to you I would say to my own sons.


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## NotEasy

DO, brilliant, sounds like the good ship marriage is back on an even keel and sailing smoothish again. I still haven't read all your threads, but it seems this was a one off aberation that sadly happens. But the recovery came swift and strong.

The special word you and your wife have to secretly say "we need to talk privately NOW", is exactly the sort of rule that might hopefully prevent this escalating next time.

Your posting style seems fine to me. Don't change just because some misunderstand it.

The one change I might suggest is a different therapist. Maybe it was just another misunderstanding, but any therapist that asks those questions needs another job.


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## jld

NotEasy said:


> DO, brilliant, sounds like the good ship marriage is back on an even keel and sailing smoothish again. I still haven't read all your threads, but it seems this was a one off aberation that sadly happens. But the recovery came swift and strong.
> 
> The special word you and your wife have to secretly say "we need to talk privately NOW", is exactly the sort of rule that might hopefully prevent this escalating next time.
> 
> Your posting style seems fine to me. Don't change just because some misunderstand it.
> 
> The one change I might suggest is a different therapist. Maybe it was just another misunderstanding, but any therapist that asks those questions needs another job.


What do you think is wrong with the therapist? I thought he/she was extremely tactful.


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## NotEasy

jld said:


> What do you think is wrong with the therapist? I thought he/she was extremely tactful.


I wasn't there and don't know exactly what was said, but it sounds just a shade from "do you love her enough to put up with abuse". Doesn't sound tactful to me.

But maybe the therapist didn't know he was triggering and she was stressed on several fronts. All that didn't come out in the first post. Maybe, but it is therapist job to uncover things like that.


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## VladDracul

drifting on said:


> Truthfully, I had panic attacks, I didn't even say this in PM's to anyone either. But now you all know, the trigger was hard and fast, I needed help, and then I received the outburst from my wife. I felt like another panic attack was coming, I was angry, and I made another mistake by walking outside without saying anything. I own that as well.


You need to stop beating yourself about the head a shoulders because you made what you perceive as "mistakes" of panic attacks, getting angry, walking outside, etc. What damn man wouldn't react when his wife goes off the deep end and dresses him down in private, let in front of others. You got ambushed and blindsided. It happens to everybody and its beyond most folks ability to come off in a ideal manner when you get the rug jerk out from under you. 
To harp a bit on the point I've tried to make, if you ever tangle with a lion, you're not likely to ever want to do it again. Not the same with a sheep. And you never hear people call a sheep majestic.


----------



## jld

NotEasy said:


> I wasn't there and don't know exactly what was said, but it sounds just a shade from "do you love her enough to put up with abuse". Doesn't sound tactful to me.
> 
> But maybe the therapist didn't know he was triggering and she was stressed on several fronts. All that didn't come out in the first post. Maybe, but it is therapist job to uncover things like that.


I bet she knows more than we do. She sees him in person, plus has lots of professional experience.

Do, do you feel abused by your wife? Is that the word you would use to describe it?

If not, what word would you use?


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## larry.gray

MattMatt said:


> Just an aside. Are you listed at the twin's father? Are they adopted by you? Or is that not an option?


In all 50 states the husband is the legal father unless challenged. Each state has different rules on that challenge process. None allow the removal of the husband's legal paternity status without consent of the mother or husband.


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## MattMatt

jld said:


> You can also start a social group and invite people whose advice you find helpful. Or you could be specific if you want to limit what posters say, such as Agreement Only, or Only Post if You (list of qualifications).
> 
> For my part, I have said the same things to you I would say to my own sons.


We already have such a group. It is called TAM.


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## larry.gray

VladDracul said:


> And from what I've seen in the past, that challenge from the husband ain't gonna relieve him from financial responsibility of the kid. Unless he willing to endure a hellof a court challenge, the husband is charged with taking care of the little tyke.


This is a threadjack since what you propose is exactly to the opposite of what DO wants to happen...

That varies greatly by state. Here it is a very simple process. If it is discovered before or during the divorce process, a certified DNA test means it is over really fast. 

Discovered later it still isn't too painful. A man can't recover past support payments - even ones that are unpaid and past due. But all future payments are removed. It can be done at any time until the kid is 26 (parents can be on the hook for college tuition in a child support judgement).


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## VladDracul

larry.gray said:


> This is a threadjack since what you propose is exactly to the opposite of what DO wants to happen...


Not intended. I'll delete.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Thanks for the response.
My point was to survive in this reconciliation, you'll have to separate things forever. It's why I KNOW I couldn't do it. Let me tell you a secret, people can just be a-holes and it has nothing to do with you. This was all on your wife, quit trying to give her an out. She screwed up and that is the end of the story. Yes, you have to treat things separately, but you are trying to make your reaction wrong. It was not. Being so angry and combining issues was not wrong. How you felt, with the level of disrespect, was not wrong. Mutual Gasoline? Nope, I have a vastly different opinion. 

You keep accepting blame for everything, it will eventually kill you.

Severe Stress and Depression Increase Risk of Early Death


----------



## NotEasy

jld said:


> I bet she knows more than we do. She sees him in person, plus has lots of professional experience.


I hope she knows more than we do. Assuming DO has seen the therapist for much of the 2 years since D day then they should. And I haven't read all the threads by DO. And they should have lots of professional experience. But that does mean they are guaranteed to be good.
Then again, I am an old, country, Aussie, we don't tend to use therapists or trust certificates on the wall. Show me behaviour and build my trust. 



jld said:


> Do, do you feel abused by your wife? Is that the word you would use to describe it?
> 
> If not, what word would you use?


These are the questions to ask. But for DO to answer them as he would have at the time. He did say in the first post "*however right now it has only caused me pain and sadness*." Given it was in the first post, I assume that was his mental state at the time of or recently before talking to the therapist. And the therapist was shocked with her behaviour. I assume therapists are not easily shocked. Should anyone in that state be told "if you love them enough...."?
Giving coping strategy, helping him see the trigger, helping him uncover her stresses, etc seem better responses from a therapist at the time.
But I repeat, none of us were in the room and heard the whole conversation. Maybe it was delivered more to look at all the positives to build him up and help him weather a temporary storm.


----------



## jld

NotEasy said:


> I hope she knows more than we do. Assuming DO has seen the therapist for much of the 2 years since D day then they should. And I haven't read all the threads by DO. And they should have lots of professional experience. But that does mean they are guaranteed to be good.
> Then again, I am an old, country, Aussie, we don't tend to use therapists or trust certificates on the wall. Show me behaviour and build my trust.
> 
> 
> These are the questions to ask. But for DO to answer them as he would have at the time. He did say in the first post "however right now it has only caused me pain and sadness." Given it was in the first post, I assume that was his mental state at the time of or recently before talking to the therapist. *And the therapist was shocked with her behaviour. I assume therapists are not easily shocked.* Should anyone in that state be told "if you love them enough...."?
> Giving coping strategy, helping him see the trigger, helping him uncover her stresses, etc seem better responses from a therapist at the time.
> But I repeat, none of us were in the room and heard the whole conversation. Maybe it was delivered more to look at all the positives to build him up and help him weather a temporary storm.


NotEasy . . . I doubt she was truly shocked. She was likely just providing empathy and comfort to do. If she had told him, Yeah, this sometimes happen, learn to cope with it, hon, he would have been further crushed. She was trying to be gentle, but effective.

Those therapists have seen too much, and far worse, to be shocked that a wife, even an unfaithful one, would at some point lose her temper with her husband. It was going to happen. Her questions reveal that, and remind him he is staying with her out of his own free will. By stabilizing him in that way, she is trying to prevent any slip into a sense of victimhood. That would further disempower him.

And she gave him an out. He could have renounced his decision to stay with her. He did not.

I like what you suggested about giving coping strategy, identifying what triggered her, and working at de-triggering her. But considering his emotional state, I think his counselor chose well. There is always the next session to go deeper.


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## sokillme

Well DO, it's your life. Personally I don't believe people who can do what you wife did change much, it's not like they can grow character over night. I also believe there are two types of people, cheaters and non-cheaters. I hope I am wrong and you are not waking up 10 years later wondering what happened again. See the thing is if a SO faithfulness is dependent on their partner being perfect then guess what, you are going to fail, and they are going to cheat, or in this case go off on you in front of friends, family, kids. To me this is all tied up in character, I mean you would think right now in the middle of reconciling she would be on her best behavior. What will she be like in 10 years. I have never once degraded anyone I loved in front of anyone. I really can't imagine doing that. My step-father used to do that all the time though. He wasn't a good guy, and my Mom wasted years hoping, praying trying to rationalize him into changing. He didn't have it in him. Finally she gave up and her life is so much better for it. She will tell you herself. 

I guess I don't care if anyone here thinks I am being harsh or mean, or whatever. I have said it before, I think of men like you as akin to abused woman who go back to a SO that beats them. I think to go back you must degrade yourself. I am not going to be nice and wish you luck. To me to do that would be immoral. If that make me a bad guy or unreasonable to posters or you on here so be it.


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## Red Sonja

NotEasy said:


> The one change I might suggest is a different therapist. Maybe it was just another misunderstanding, but any therapist that asks those questions needs another job.


We must look at DO’s therapist’s words in the context of helping him in *his chosen course for the marriage*.

Our MC was also shocked by my husband’s behavior toward me and that is why she saw me alone, after a few joint sessions, and described what she saw in his behavior and then *asked if I wanted to stay in the marriage*. She told me what staying would mean for me and explained how she would *change her approach to helping us if I mean to stay*. *That is what therapists are supposed to do, work within the client’s choices for their own life.
*
*I believe we at TAM should also advise DO keeping his choice for reconciliation in mind.* Telling him to divorce, demonizing his wife, discussions of his children’s genetic parentage (etc.) is not helping DO. He is asking for help and understanding inside his reconciliation and we should respect that.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I believe we at TAM should always voice our differing opinions, with respect, until the OP says no more regardless of divorce or reconciliation. Hearing both sides helps.


----------



## NotEasy

jld said:


> NotEasy . . . I doubt she was truly shocked. She was likely just providing empathy and comfort to do. If she had told him, Yeah, this sometimes happen, learn to cope with it, hon, he would have been further crushed. She was trying to be gentle, but effective.
> 
> Those therapists have seen too much, and far worse, to be shocked that a wife, even an unfaithful one, would at some point lose her temper with her husband. It was going to happen. Her questions reveal that, and remind him he is staying with her out of his own free will. By stabilizing him in that way, she is trying to prevent any slip into a sense of victimhood. That would further disempower him.
> 
> And she gave him an out. He could have renounced his decision to stay with her. He did not.
> 
> I like what you suggested about giving coping strategy, identifying what triggered her, and working at de-triggering her. But considering his emotional state, I think his counselor chose well. There is always the next session to go deeper.


I would like to agree with what you say, but I see it as so many assumptions about the therapy session. What little DO posted about it does not clearly and completely support either of us. We weren't there, we don't know. DO hasn't posted further details, so I guess we are going off track.

I merely want to suggest what might be an option to improve his/their therapy and so help their marriage.


----------



## sokillme

Red Sonja said:


> We must look at DO’s therapist’s words in the context of helping him in *his chosen course for the marriage*.
> 
> Our MC was also shocked by my husband’s behavior toward me and that is why she saw me alone, after a few joint sessions, and described what she saw in his behavior and then *asked if I wanted to stay in the marriage*. She told me what staying would mean for me and explained how she would *change her approach to helping us if I mean to stay*. *That is what therapists are supposed to do, work within the client’s choices for their own life.
> *
> *I believe we at TAM should also advise DO keeping his choice for reconciliation in mind.* Telling him to divorce, demonizing his wife, discussions of his children’s genetic parentage (etc.) is not helping DO. He is asking for help and understanding inside his reconciliation and we should respect that.



I'm not his therapist (meaning he is not my client and I am not depending on his coming to me for help to get paid, my words aren't constrained by the fear of losing a paycheck. Always remember your therapist works for you. Like any other service in the end unless the person has the utmost integrity they are going to do what the client asks. Just like most hairdressers are going to give you a cut the makes you look terrible if you really want it.). SO is just another suffering human being to me, got to call it like I see it.


----------



## NotEasy

Red Sonja, if his therapist is like your therapist then I see no problem. My worry is the "if I loved her enough..." comment sounds like emotional blackmail. In the worst case it is twisting him into doing something that he no longer wants. Thankfully, this worst case is obviously not true given his later posts.

I agree we should help others find the strength to keep there choice in mind, especially if it is R. I like stories with happy endings. I was only suggesting a new therapist as a way the strengthen his recovery and R.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

^^^See and this is why I will never agree or advocate silencing either side. Sometimes divorce is the right answer even if you decided reconciliation is the right call. As we've seen in threads, reconciliation leads to both good and bad outcomes just like divorce. Trying to call either side stories with "happy endings" is disingenuous. Strength can be found in telling someone things they do not want to hear.

One of TAM's biggest flaws is some of us can't disagree without denigrating the so called other side.


----------



## sokillme

NotEasy said:


> Red Sonja, if his therapist is like your therapist then I see not problem. My worry is the "if I loved her enough..." comment sounds like emotional blackmail. In the worst case it is getting him to do something that he no longer wants. This worst case is obviously not true given his later posts.
> 
> I agree we should help others find the strength to keep his choice in mind, especially if it is R. I like stories with happy endings.


I'll get flak for this, but a guy raising some AP kids while his wife humiliates him occasionally has no "happy" ending in my book. There are too many stories of people settling for a broken marriage and acting like it is a happy ending on marriage boards. Reading their posts though, most seem like prolonged agony. In most cases divorce would be a healthier choice. 

OK slam away at me.


----------



## LucasJackson

This sucks my man but confirms for me why dumping a cheater is the path to happiness. No BS drama like this to bring you down.


----------



## NotEasy

sokillme said:


> I'll get flak for this, but a guy raising some AP kids while his wife humiliates him occasionally has no a "happy" ending in my book. There are too many stories of people settling for a broken marriage and acting like it is a happy ending on marriage boards. Reading their posts though, most seem like prolonged agony. In most cases divorce would be a healthier choice.
> 
> OK slam away at me.


The only slam from me is that I shouldn't have tried to make a joke with "happy endings". Sure I like successful R, but it isn't the best choice in every case. Here DO seems to be happy with his choice for most of the time, but this one aberation was a big one. Now that it is clearing he seems happy to continue with R. 
I think this is the only time his wife has humiliated him in public (although I haven't read all his posts). And I don't think she humiliated him by saying the kids are not his. TAM posters have said that, but I think she has never said that.


----------



## drifting on

sokillme said:


> I'm not his therapist (meaning he is not my client and I am not depending on his coming to me for help to get paid, my words aren't constrained by the fear of losing a paycheck. Always remember your therapist works for you. Like any other service in the end unless the person has the utmost integrity they are going to do what the client asks. Just like most hairdressers are going to give you a cut the makes you look terrible if you really want it.). SO is just another suffering human being to me, got to call it like I see it.








I don't post very much about my therapist or what occurs during therapy, simply stated that is private. I did post what my therapist asked me, and she asked me that for good reason. Contrary to what you have posted my therapist is very good at what she does. She certainly doesn't think of her paycheck when she sees me. In fact my primary physician doesn't see me as a paycheck, I could choose another therapist or physician in a blink of the eye. 

I have been fortunate, I have found an excellent physician, therapist, and MC. None of these three see me or my wife as a paycheck. Now I don't dispute that each field has terrible ones, I've met some of them too, but the three I have are golden. 

As for my therapist I understand exactly what she meant by asking me these questions. They were asked for the right reasons, and explaining these reasons will reveal more then I wish to. So if you feel what you wrote above applies to me, I'm fine with it, but you are wrong. This does not mean I do not read what you post, I just disagree with this post. I won't hold a grudge and I thank you for your opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

The problem is that sometimes people have a fixed notion about things.

Like therapists.

For example all therapists are balding, have goatee beards, wear glasses and have bowties. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sokillme

drifting on said:


> I don't post very much about my therapist or what occurs during therapy, simply stated that is private. I did post what my therapist asked me, and she asked me that for good reason. Contrary to what you have posted my therapist is very good at what she does. She certainly doesn't think of her paycheck when she sees me. In fact my primary physician doesn't see me as a paycheck, I could choose another therapist or physician in a blink of the eye.
> 
> I have been fortunate, I have found an excellent physician, therapist, and MC. None of these three see me or my wife as a paycheck. Now I don't dispute that each field has terrible ones, I've met some of them too, but the three I have are golden.
> 
> As for my therapist I understand exactly what she meant by asking me these questions. They were asked for the right reasons, and explaining these reasons will reveal more then I wish to. So if you feel what you wrote above applies to me, I'm fine with it, but you are wrong. This does not mean I do not read what you post, I just disagree with this post. I won't hold a grudge and I thank you for your opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No offense but I see your therapist like a fireman who sees a person in a burning house but doesn't go in rescue them because the person says they are cold. That's just me.


----------



## drifting on

sokillme said:


> No offense but I see your therapist like a fireman who sees a person in a burning house but doesn't go in rescue them because the person says they are cold. That's just me.





Agree to disagree, but this gives me insight into you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sokillme

drifting on said:


> Agree to disagree, but this gives me insight into you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You should see me as a bystander who walks by the house and screams "Get out!" 0


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## phillybeffandswiss

LOL. Quit fueling the fire. Your comment gives him insight into what you think about his therapist and his decision to reconcile nothing more.


----------



## ABHale

VladDracul said:


> farsidejunky said:
> 
> 
> 
> So what actually happened? DO triggers. Then we have a series of folks stepping in to fan the flames with talk of how this is a result of the affair, or the children, or her gas lighting, or her "well hidden" lack of respect. Rather than encouraging DO to take a moment to calm down, reflect on how he triggered, encouraging him to own his trigger, AND THEN tell him to hold his wife accountable for her showing a lack of respect, people instead proceed to tell DO to divorce, leave, she never really respected him, etc...bringing gasoline to put out a fire.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with forums is everyone is speaking from their own perspective. Mine is a spouse should put their mate ahead of all others. In my view her willful and public impugning of him indicates a lack of respect or regard that she embarrass him in front of others. Moreover, that incident neutered him in disciplining his adopted kids
> Respect is either something you have or you don't. It is not given to you by another. It is something you require and behave in a manner that commands it. Moreover, I woman cannot romantically love a man she doesn't respect. If you doubt it, ask the women.
> I don't have a dog in the fight as to whether he stays married or divorces. Obviously he thinks she's worth the crap she put him through.
Click to expand...


So true.


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## JohnA

This post by DO from 7/24/2015 might help clarify why he posts. 


Ckone1800

I told BOTH my MC and IC I was on a forum for marriage and infidelity. I was expecting the worst and nervous before telling each therapist. My MC thought for a minute then said, "this may be good for you. My recommendation to you is, if it helps you, good, if not then stop. Only you will know if it helps or hurts you so proceed with caution. You express more in writing then in person so this may be a productive channel for you to alleviate your pain." My MC was able to notice how and what would help me express my emotions and feelings. MC was supportive of what I needed to cope with infidelity. 

When I told my IC she thought it was a great way for me to express my feelings. I have told her the website name and my name on here. We discuss it each week. A competent therapist doesn't care if you visit forums as long as they are not damaging your healing or therapeutic benefit of counseling. 

This IC you have, I don't think is a benefit to you. The first session should be an explanation of your problems along with asking questions to your therapist about the process to be taken. It's basically a getting your feet wet to see if you and the therapist are compatible to obtain a therapeutic rapport.
Posted via Mobile Device

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...2-15-year-marriage-recently-found-out-40.html

By posting here first he clarifies what he feels, and what is important to say and/or needs to do. 

Finally DO, I've read many of your posts on other's threads. Your insights are always of value and are calming. You, @bandit.45 @farside, @Wazza, @Uptown and many pthers are important among voices that help others heal.

Be Well


----------



## EI

phillybeffandswiss said:


> One of TAM's biggest flaws is some of us can't disagree without denigrating the so called other side.


_Quoted for truth! _ One simple sentence that manages to accurately summarize why a good number of TAMers become disheartened and quit posting or choose to leave TAM altogether.


----------



## drifting on

JohnA said:


> This post by DO from 7/24/2015 might help clarify why he posts.
> 
> 
> Ckone1800
> 
> I told BOTH my MC and IC I was on a forum for marriage and infidelity. I was expecting the worst and nervous before telling each therapist. My MC thought for a minute then said, "this may be good for you. My recommendation to you is, if it helps you, good, if not then stop. Only you will know if it helps or hurts you so proceed with caution. You express more in writing then in person so this may be a productive channel for you to alleviate your pain." My MC was able to notice how and what would help me express my emotions and feelings. MC was supportive of what I needed to cope with infidelity.
> 
> When I told my IC she thought it was a great way for me to express my feelings. I have told her the website name and my name on here. We discuss it each week. A competent therapist doesn't care if you visit forums as long as they are not damaging your healing or therapeutic benefit of counseling.
> 
> This IC you have, I don't think is a benefit to you. The first session should be an explanation of your problems along with asking questions to your therapist about the process to be taken. It's basically a getting your feet wet to see if you and the therapist are compatible to obtain a therapeutic rapport.
> Posted via Mobile Device
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...2-15-year-marriage-recently-found-out-40.html
> 
> By posting here first he clarifies what he feels, and what is important to say and/or needs to do.
> 
> Finally DO, I've read many of your posts on other's threads. Your insights are always of value and are calming. You, @bandit.45 @farside, @Wazza, @Uptown and many pthers are important among voices that help others heal.
> 
> Be Well




I thank you again for the kind words, also the pm that you sent, and I agree these posters are invaluable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

EI said:


> _Quoted for truth! _ One simple sentence that manages to accurately summarize why a good number of TAMers become disheartened and quit posting or choose to leave TAM altogether.





You are correct! I have become disheartened also at some of the posts here. Some posters can really just strike a familiar cord to you and the help you get from that is incredible. Sometimes I believe a 2X4 is needed, but continued use chases the OP off, therefore not really receiving help. I have had to stop posting at times because I felt my posts would be of no help and possibly destructive. I have also posted from emotions which I feel is terrible to do. On those posts I have had to go back and apologize for my words. Since TAM has been very helpful to me, I hope my posts can give help to someone who needs it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

TAM is like the ER unit at an understaffed old hospital in the poor side of a city. At its best what you get is controlled anarchy. But in this hospital there are no doctors. Just patients. 

Those who come here are the walking wounded. It is hard to be calm and rational when you have huge gaping wounds in your psyche.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DustyDog

EI said:


> _Quoted for truth! _ One simple sentence that manages to accurately summarize why a good number of TAMers become disheartened and quit posting or choose to leave TAM altogether.


That's sad. Because life is exactly that way. It is not possible to provide an opinion in a way that doesn't offend somebody.

Writers may choose to write in a way to avoid irritating others...but some opinions, honestly given, will offend someone no matter how it was phrased.

Therefore, readers who wish to not be offended must *decide* not to be offended.

After all, communications is not 50/50. It's 100/100.


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## MattMatt

bandit.45 said:


> TAM is like the ER unit at an understaffed old hospital in the poor side of a city. At its best what you get is controlled anarchy. But in this hospital there are no doctors. Just patients.
> 
> Those who come here are the walking wounded. It is hard to be calm and rational when you have huge gaping wounds in your psyche.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or the people who use a stick to make a wound in someone else bigger, rather than trying to help sew the wound up?

And @bandit.45 you have been very good with the needle and thread over the years, for various hurting souls on TAM.

Your help has been invaluable to me on a number of occasions.


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## phillybeffandswiss

DustyDog said:


> That's sad. Because life is exactly that way. It is not possible to provide an opinion in a way that doesn't offend somebody.
> 
> Writers may choose to write in a way to avoid irritating others...but some opinions, honestly given, will offend someone no matter how it was phrased.
> 
> Therefore, readers who wish to not be offended must *decide* not to be offended.
> 
> After all, communications is not 50/50. It's 100/100.


Yes, it is pretty much impossible to state an opinion without offending someone. Heck, it happens on TAM everyday in any number of threads. This is how misunderstandings and arguments start. 

Yet, this isn't implied by me or agreed to by EI's post. I said "denigrating," I didn't say anything about offending someone. My point is we can have discussions, with multiple people disagreeing, without disparaging (denigrating) them or their actions. I've walked away from people or threads, not because I was offended, but why waste my time. Same thing occurs with many an OP. Why stick around and be insulted instead of helped? Some are or are not offended, but why stay and take unnecessary abuse in your time of need? Yes, it is possible to say something and not denigrate a person or group. In other words, you could be offended by my response, but I didn't denigrate you. We just disagree.


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## drifting on

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, it is pretty much impossible to state an opinion without offending someone. Heck, it happens on TAM everyday in any number of threads. This is how misunderstandings and arguments start.
> 
> Yet, this isn't implied by me or agreed to by EI's post. I said "denigrating," I didn't say anything about offending someone. My point is we can have discussions, with multiple people disagreeing, without disparaging (denigrating) them or their actions. I've walked away from people or threads, not because I was offended, but why waste my time. Same thing occurs with many an OP. Why stick around and be insulted instead of helped? Some are or are not offended, but why stay and take unnecessary abuse in your time of need? Yes, it is possible to say something and not denigrate a person or group. In other words, you could be offended by my response, but I didn't denigrate you. We just disagree.




You are very intelligent, and I misread your post, but you are also absolutely correct. Opinions can offend, they can agree, and yes they can make you walk away or not respond at all. My original goal coming to TAM was to heal, to heal with others who have shared my pain. Writing was cathartic and proved to be a great outlet for me. I got opinions from people who knew exactly how I felt, knew the struggle I was having, and took me under their wing to help me heal. Many members of TAM have proven to be such a huge influence in my efforts on reconciliation. What I find to be incredible is that most TAM members know just what to say and when to say it. The caring of others that I so infrequently see, gives me hope that opinions people share are shared to mostly help you even though it may offend you. Opening my heart to TAM members has been a great expierience for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

bandit.45 said:


> TAM is like the ER unit at an understaffed old hospital in the poor side of a city. At its best what you get is controlled anarchy. But in this hospital there are no doctors. Just patients.
> 
> Those who come here are the walking wounded. It is hard to be calm and rational when you have huge gaping wounds in your psyche.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Bandit.45

Once again your way with words has made me smile. You couldn't be any more correct. It's wounded people helping wounded people. Since you no longer drink, I hope to one day raise a Coke-a-cola to yours, I thank you for being such a big support and advisor during my struggles in life. I mean this sincerely, you have helped me more then you could ever imagine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

drifting on said:


> Bandit.45
> 
> Once again your way with words has made me smile. You couldn't be any more correct. It's wounded people helping wounded people. Since you no longer drink, I hope to one day raise a Coke-a-cola to yours, I thank you for being such a big support and advisor during my struggles in life. I mean this sincerely, you have helped me more then you could ever imagine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you. Pay it forward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

MattMatt said:


> Or the people who use a stick to make a wound in someone else bigger, rather than trying to help sew the wound up?
> 
> And @bandit.45 you have been very good with the needle and thread over the years, for various hurting souls on TAM.
> 
> Your help has been invaluable to me on a number of occasions.


Et tu Matt'e
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

drifting on said:


> Bandit.45
> 
> Once again your way with words has made me smile. You couldn't be any more correct. It's wounded people helping wounded people. Since you no longer drink, I hope to one day raise a Coke-a-cola to yours, I thank you for being such a big support and advisor during my struggles in life. I mean this sincerely, you have helped me more then you could ever imagine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





bandit.45 said:


> Thank you. Pay it forward.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, @bandit.45 is a real sweetheart! :wink2: I think he probably logged his personal best (greatest number of bannings on a single thread) on my original thread. The ol' curmudgeon has mellowed quite a bit since then!


----------



## drifting on

EI said:


> Yeah, @bandit.45 is a real sweetheart! :wink2: I think he probably logged his personal best (greatest number of bannings on a single thread) on my original thread. The ol' curmudgeon has mellowed quite a bit since then!




What's great about this is my perception that you both are friends and have respect for one another. Just my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

drifting on said:


> What's great about this is my perception that you both are friends and have respect for one another. Just my opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



And, you would be absolutely correct, DO!  Bandit is one of my all time favorite TAMers. But, for heaven's sake, please don't tell him. It would only serve to blow up his already over inflated ego!!! 

I actually think I deserve some credit for helping to tame the ol' Bandito! During one of the many timeouts he received for his _enthusiastic posting _on my original thread, he must have taken some time to reflect on his _delivery_, because eventually he came back a kinder, gentler Bandito. He stills gets his point across, and his strong message about the brutality of infidelity has remained the same, but he learned how to wield a 2 x 4 (now, I'm borrowing from Maricha) without adding nails. 

These days, I have a very soft spot for the ol' curmudgeon!


----------



## swallow555

> As for my wife, she had learned her sister was going through financial infidelity because of her brother in law. I don't want to really go further on this, but we have offered for her sister and two kids to live with us if need be. So that is a little on the serious side and my wife (along with myself) are worried for her sister and children. It's not because of the discipline, that I know for sure after talking to my wife.


So your wife lashed out on you because her BIL betrayed her sister ?Anyone not notice the significance ? 

DO has a huge blind spot where he cannot see anything his wife did in any kind of bad light. He will use his intelligence and amazing power of persuasion on himself to turn that action into something positive. But briefly the reality distortion field he surrounds himself with broke down. Hence the trigger and this post.


----------



## drifting on

swallow555 said:


> So your wife lashed out on you because her BIL betrayed her sister ?Anyone not notice the significance ?
> 
> DO has a huge blind spot where he cannot see anything his wife did in any kind of bad light. He will use his intelligence and amazing power of persuasion on himself to turn that action into something positive. But briefly the reality distortion field he surrounds himself with broke down. Hence the trigger and this post.




No, the events leading up to this were the faults of us both, I didn't tell her of my trigger, I let that trigger manifest inside me when I should have spoken to her. I didn't, no persuasion in the world will show that I owned my part, I didn't, then I allowed the blow up to be mired into the affair. I stepped badly then just continued to step badly. I brought more to a situation then I should have. I see that now, and that is what I need to own. 

My wife was having a very bad day, kids and stress got to her, then she learns of the infidelity to her sister. I would have been just like her in this situation, wrong but probable. She didn't communicate with me her stress, the kids behavior and that she needed to walk away. She owns that, and we have both owned our wrongs, talked this out exhaustingly, and we have solutions in place. 

When I posted I made this problem look like a mountain, but @farsidejunky was spot on. I carried baggage in when I shouldn't have. I see my wrongs and my wife sees hers, we will pull each other aside and briefly tell the other if something like this happens again, then we will discuss it at another time that is more suitable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

swallow555 said:


> So your wife lashed out on you because her BIL betrayed her sister ?Anyone not notice the significance ?
> 
> DO has a huge blind spot where he cannot see anything his wife did in any kind of bad light. He will use his intelligence and amazing power of persuasion on himself to turn that action into something positive. But briefly the reality distortion field he surrounds himself with broke down. Hence the trigger and this post.


No, he is far from blind. I may not like his choice or some of the reasons given to him for his current situation. Heck, I actually vehemently disagree with quite a few of the ones given. Nope, I do not like his current post either. He has posted, stated, debated and argued all of the overreaching ramifications, problems and potential downfalls of his reconciliation. He has made an* informed choice*, with the importance of having tons of differing advice, it is his life and there is no blindness at all.

Let's not pretend a marriage, except for certain posters, is perfect. There are times when one spouse takes on more than they should to make a situation better.


----------



## swallow555

drifting on said:


> No, the events leading up to this were the faults of us both, I didn't tell her of my trigger, I let that trigger manifest inside me when *I should have spoken to her.* *I didn't, no persuasion in the world will show that I owned my part, I didn't, then I allowed the blow up to be mired into the affair. I stepped badly then just continued to step badly. I brought more to a situation then I should have. I see that now, and that is what I need to own. *
> 
> My wife was having a very bad day, kids and stress got to her, then she learns of the infidelity to her sister. I would have been just like her in this situation, wrong but probable. She didn't communicate with me her stress, the kids behavior and that she needed to walk away. She owns that, and we have both owned our wrongs, talked this out exhaustingly, and we have solutions in place.
> 
> When I posted I made this problem look like a mountain, but @farsidejunky was spot on. *I carried baggage in when I shouldn't have.* I see my wrongs and my wife sees hers, we will pull each other aside and briefly tell the other if something like this happens again, then we will discuss it at another time that is more suitable.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, anyone who read your story can tell that it was a trigger and you were talking in the anger of the moment. (Without snark)If parental fraud which is one of the hardest kinds of infidelity did not make you leave her, then this obviously won't.

Acknowledgement of an issue and emotions does not mean you have the solution to it. People are not robots. I do think things like this will happen for you once in a while. You are admonishing yourself a lot on how you acted all through the post. I just think you must be more forgiving on yourself. People cannot control everything they are aware of. 

You also have a severe problem with over empathizing from your wife's POV.


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## swallow555

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, he is far from blind. I may not like his choice or some of the reasons given to him for his current situation. Heck, I actually vehemently disagree with quite a few of the ones given. Nope, I do not like his current post either. He has posted, stated, debated and argued all of the overreaching ramifications, problems and potential downfalls of his reconciliation. He has made an* informed choice*, with the importance of having tons of differing advice, it is his life and there is no blindness at all.
> 
> Let's not pretend a marriage, except for certain posters, is perfect. There are times when one spouse takes on more than they should to make a situation better.



His informed choice is not entirely logical and is contrived around his own desire to R. You can see from his posts that he tries to play a stoic role but sometimes the act breaks down. He is trying his best to salvage the family but in some situations, it is very hard.


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## phillybeffandswiss

His anger is logical. His reaction to wanting to reconcile is logical. Everything you just said he is doing is logical, in context to his desire. Again, we do not have to like it, but it is not blind and it is completely logical.


----------



## swallow555

phillybeffandswiss said:


> His anger is logical. His reaction to wanting to reconcile is logical. Everything you just said he is doing is logical, in context to his desire. Again, we do not have to like it, but it is not blind and it is completely logical.



Calling it logical in context of his desire doesn't make sense to me as a 











logical statement. :wink2:




I think we are just arguing semantics now.


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## drifting on

swallow555 said:


> His informed choice is not entirely logical and is contrived around his own desire to R. You can see from his posts that he tries to play a stoic role but sometimes the act breaks down. He is trying his best to salvage the family but in some situations, it is very hard.




I had two choices, divorce or reconcile, and anyone who knows me personally will tell you once I decide I am committed. In my situation reconciliation had more positives and was the best choice for me. My wife and kids not factor into this decision. That may sound sad or harsh but first and foremost I had to choose what was best for me. Then my boys were factored in, again reconciliation was the better choice. Then my wife was factored in, again reconciliation was the better choice. I find it ironic that someone would say logic or even logical when dealing with infidelity. There is nothing logical about infidelity, in fact basic logic was thrown out the window. I waited six months to make my decision, and this was for several reasons. So I wouldn't decide while highly emotional, so I made the best decision for me based on the facts. So I wouldn't make a decision blindly. Every decision I made was excruciating, each decision hurt, but I survived. 

I do not consider myself stoic in the least, I cried more times then you can imagine, I felt as if I was the weakest man on earth, at some point I didn't even feel like a man. Swallow, I don't know if you have ever felt what I have, stoic is the last word I would use to describe myself. I wouldn't even use that word in my current position, although I survive that doesn't mean on some days I am riddled with pain. I have spoken about how destroyed and lost I was, trust me it showed, everything but stoic showed. 

As for my family, I chose to reconcile, against the advice of many posters that came before you. Some will intentionally avoid my threads or posts because of my choice. I respect them. However, those same posters will drop in and give advice for a current situation, even though they disagree with me wholeheartedly in regards to my reconciling. Yet they still give support, still give advice, and help me as best they can. To me that speaks volumes about what kind of person they are. Since I chose to reconcile, I am giving this everything I have, I work tirelessly to improve my marriage and family life. This includes supporting my wife, I chose to reconcile not divorce, and helping my wife along is part of it. She did most of the work, she gave effort I didn't know existed, and in the end I gave her the gift of renciliation. So yes, I'm doing everything I can to help my family, what kind of man would I be if I give the gift of reconciliation and then did nothing? No, reconciliation is so much more then that. You own your crap one hundred percent, I do, so does my wife, and because of one incident, I should throw it all away? 

My wife has never done this before, it was out of charactor for her to do this. It was a perfect storm, I made mistakes as did she, and we have corrected this. Yet to you it can't be corrected not can safeguards be put into place to keep this from happening again. Infidelity can only have safeguards in place to help prevent it from happening, they are called boundaries. So if I divorced and placed boundaries in my next relationship, will I have a guarantee? If I stay with my wife do I have a guarantee? Either way I can only place safeguards or boundaries in place to prevent infidelity. Those safeguards and boundaries can be broken on a moments notice, this is true of divorce and reconciliation. Some posters feel I would be better off with a different wife, I disagree, but we do so in a respectable manner. I'm not saying you are disrespectful, but I did make my decision logically, not blindly, and this choice is what is best for me. 

One thing I can say about reconciliation is this, neither spouse is perfect, mistakes will be made, you will argue at times, and you have to have empathy, sympathy, love, and strength. Reconciliation is nothing more then a huge test for both spouses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on

One other point, there are many reasons I may leave, boundaries broken, transparency ends, contacting on, these are just a few. I am willing to work on his marriage, I'm not willing to stay if she slides back into her old ways. I have worked hard on myself, hard on my marriage, and I will survive if we do divorce. In the meantime I give all I can to my marriage and in fixing myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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