# A Personal Epiphany



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Greetings all,

As you may remember, we're in the reconciliation process. And, we're doing well. We continue to navigate uncharted water in terms of off-limit subjects (that are now routinely discussable) and overall non-hijacked communication.

AFEH speaks often of passive aggression. I've known for a long time that I get a certain amount of pleasure from the suffering of perceived enemies. The German term for this is _schadenfreude_. Yet, I didn't realize how deep this passive aggression can run... and what sort of acting out results from it.

Then I read MEM's post about the "yes man hubby" who for 18 years was "perfect" for his wife. We all know the profile now. Goes to work everyday. Good father. Sexless marriage. Basically dominated by his wife - dotes on her.

One day, she looks out the window and here he comes on his brand new motorcycle, decked out in leather, a couple of tattoos and a hard-looking biker ***** on the rumble seat.

He flips his wife the bird and hits the road.

She "never knew what happened".

When I read that post, I realized MEM was describing me in my first marriage. Since we don't change all that much without effort, I started looking at myself a bit harder in that area.

Most - if not all - of the angry outbursts I initiate are with someone close to me who I perceive has "taken advantage".

But, realize this, we're talking about one transaction at a time.

I've had the tendency to extend myself, extend myself, and further extend myself to get the "desired outcome" in relationships. Pretty soon, it's unrecognizable in form and I'm basically miserable - and hopping mad.

This is a really interesting type of thing to study in yourself. It becomes "easy" to start saying no where the answer was always "yes' before - because you you realize the ultimate price to be paid by communicating an endless array of yes's.

Believe me, the person asking does NOT want me to take the ball all the way to the one-yard line by myself. Because, at that point the reciprocity I'm hoping for must materialize or the middle finger gets twitchy - if you know what I mean.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Geesh more than ten words


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Geesh more than ten words


Had to drag it up from my toes.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Had to drag it up from my toes.


Go for it. Really go for it.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Invoke his name and the genie appears. 

Turns out there are amplifiers and reducers in this dynamic. 

The amplifiers come from being with someone who rapidly and crazily escalates conflict. Because that dynamic looks something like this. 
BPD: Does something that is offensive but not gigantic in magnitude
PA: Quietly thinks - I don't like this - and I also do not want WW3 right now. Grits their teeth and says nothing. 

Cycle repeats until PA is so angry that they don't care what reaction they get. 






Conrad said:


> Greetings all,
> 
> As you may remember, we're in the reconciliation process. And, we're doing well. We continue to navigate uncharted water in terms of off-limit subjects (that are now routinely discussable) and overall non-hijacked communication.
> 
> ...


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

What on earth are you on about? I cannot understand where you are, what it is you are trying to communicate. Conrad buddy all and everyone of your previous posts I’ve understood (at the very least I thought I did). This one I haven’t a clue.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Cycle repeats until PA is so angry that they don't care what reaction they get.


No. and No again. PA never ever gets that angry. Way too much in control. Like a psychopath.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I think - for guys - this is simply the most difficult part.

We want hot women. We simply do.

Yet, good looking women often learn they can GET you to swallow damned near anything just to get your turn at bat.

So, watch out what you wish for. Get a date with your dream girl - or launch an LTR with her.

One transaction at a time, she will grind you into sawdust.



MEM11363 said:


> Invoke his name and the genie appears.
> 
> Turns out there are amplifiers and reducers in this dynamic.
> 
> ...


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MEM,

One last thing.

"PA doesn't care about the reaction he gets"

Damn skippy.

The meanest ugliest fights escalate way out of control once that self-governance goes out the window.

We all know where each other are vulnerable. With the right stimulus, we're capable of laying those soft places bare and ripping them with our teeth.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> I've had the tendency to extend myself, extend myself, and further extend myself to get the "desired outcome" in relationships.


Heaven is where someone loves you for who you are. You can be in your own heaven. Love who you are. Everything else follows.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Heaven is where someone loves you for who you are. You can be in your own heaven. Love who you are. Everything else follows.


Unlike me, you are coming in loud and clear.

While we never extinguish our "tendencies", we do learn to manage them.

We can also learn to love the stuff about us that is unique and good.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Feck the PAs in the world.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I always wished you posted a response to my thread "What would your spouse say about you" or in your case, your ex. I think if you were able to understand the other side if you will, you could learn a lot about yourself. The anger would subside and real change would be made.
I asked my husband what he thought about me and it was eye opening. I have often believed I somehow got screwed but the reality is, I contributed to it but instead I pointed my finger at him as the sole cause. Gently here, I think you have a similar tendency. AFEH, I think you do as well. Again very gently here as I was/am in the same boat. It is somewhat cathartic to look within and see the things I need to change. If my marriage doesn't work out, at least I have a pretty clear idea of myself.
Feel free to flip me that twitchy finger.


----------



## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Conrad said:


> I think - for guys - this is simply the most difficult part.
> 
> We want hot women. We simply do.
> 
> ...


You are limiting yourself by not looking at the beauty WITHIN a person.

“_Beauty is not in the face; beauty is a light in the heart._” ~ Kahlil Gibran


----------



## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Conrad:

I think I know exactly what you are saying. For years you did everything that you thought you should to get love and respect from your wife. But you were being the martyr and victim, and people cannot do that for very long without exploding.

Now you know that you should communicate your needs. Call her out when she does something that offends you. Work together to solve problems rather than do everything yourself.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Unlike me, you are coming in loud and clear.
> 
> While we never extinguish our "tendencies", we do learn to manage them.
> 
> We can also learn to love the stuff about us that is unique and good.


Conrad. My wife is a PA. I will not go on a vendetta because of it. I’d love the comfort again, the taste of her food, the challenge of her psychology. To sleep beside her and smell her and feel her warmth. To be inside her and feel the heat of her. To be her hero again for the umpteenth time. Sometimes it’s financial. I’ve halved all I’ve worked for over the past 40 years.

But she ain’t never ever going to hurt me again. So I don’t go there.

I think PAs have so very much to offer. They’re orgasmic. Pleasure. Real pleasure never to be missed. But F the pain.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> AFEH, I think you do as well.


You should stay out of this Man's world.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

lovesherman said:


> Conrad:
> 
> I think I know exactly what you are saying. For years you did everything that you thought you should to get love and respect from your wife. But you were being the martyr and victim, and people cannot do that for very long without exploding.
> 
> Now you know that you should communicate your needs. Call her out when she does something that offends you. Work together to solve problems rather than do everything yourself.



Oh Yes. Oh so very yes.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad. Why are you a PA? If it’s not for public consumption PM me. I want to know. If you don’t know why tell me if you want to. Also tell me if you do not want to be a PA.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bob,
From your descriptions your W was PA Plus she had a lot of other issues.
PA behavior patterns range from mild to severe. The guy who goes a decade and then walks away is at the high end.
I sometimes don't address stuff right away and subsequently react too harshly.
Mild case of PA.


OTE=AFEH;433036]Conrad. Why are you a PA? If it’s not for public consumption PM me. I want to know. If you don’t know why tell me if you want to. Also tell me if you do not want to be a PA.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

I don't know. I don't think you were PA, so to speak. 

A PA will hold it in, and be the martyr. Always holding it in. But....they WILL punish. And it's never an outburst it's way more subtle. Way more devious. Trust me. I was there. 

Wife would complain. I would get angry. Wife would deny. I would get more angry. But I never ever lashed out. I was too scared too. What if she got really angry at me? God forbid she went through a period of disapproval! I was the nice guy! I understood her. It was my place! I was being the nice guy. The supportive husband. 

But make absolutely NO mistake! No outburst ever went unpunished. This is where the passive comes in. I would shut down. Not talk to her. I was even an expert at ridicule. The type of ridicule that would leave you guessing.....is that really ridicule or am I imagining or misinterpreting things? It's a fkn art form. A very very evil art form. And I was a master!

It's passive. Because it's not direct. And it's safe. Because it's so convoluted there is no way for the recipient to feel 100 percent justified in blaming you for anything directly for the punishment you just doled out. It's subtle. It's so evilly subtle. It totally ***s with the mind of the recipient. Which is why it's aggressive. 

pAs will take it and take it. All that negativity from thier spouse. And never directly lash out. And we remember every single bad thing you did to us. And we can even make up more bad stuff that we imagined you did to us. And the punishment is the worst form if emotional abuse. And the great part of it is that you don't even know it's emotional abuse until you feel stressed out and worth down and have ulcers.

It is sociopathic. But we are not true sociopaths. We are just Fkd up in the head. 

And yes, Conrad. That one simple word....NO. It's such an easy cure for PA behavior it's amazing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Wow. Just reading that is nasty. No wonder my Stbxw had an affair. I was crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Ok. Enough hijacking. This is Conrads post. 

And I'm flabbergasted you actually wrote in paragraphs. Awesome!

I can relate deeply to your story. Thanks for sharing!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

alphaomega said:


> I don't know. I don't think you were PA, so to speak.
> 
> A PA will hold it in, and be the martyr. Always holding it in. But....they WILL punish. And it's never an outburst it's way more subtle. Way more devious. Trust me. I was there.
> 
> ...


AO, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for posting this. You greatly helped me in a few PMs but this help goes way beyond that. You have just described to me exactly how I’d imagined and concluded my stbxw’s psyche (her mind, her deepest thoughts, feelings, values and beliefs systems) works. It is so opposite to how my psyche works that I’m really surprised I got to that understanding. But now you have verified and validated it. Thank you so very much for that.

The really strange thing is, I am that big minded, broad and deep, and I had so very much love for her that all she needed to do was tell me what was going on inside of her and I would have forgiven her and helped her to a better place. They just don’t know that and the more you try and teach them the more entrenched in their psyche they become.

I am so glad for you OA that you have your self awareness. I think you are truly blessed with that self awareness because it will help you on your journey. But how did you become aware and how on earth did you get the courage to post what you posted. Bless you. Big time blessings to you OA. You are a Man of Courage and Integrity.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Bob,
> From your descriptions your W was PA Plus she had a lot of other issues.
> PA behavior patterns range from mild to severe. The guy who goes a decade and then walks away is at the high end.
> I sometimes don't address stuff right away and subsequently react too harshly.
> Mild case of PA.


_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

MEM, I think we can all do a bit of PA. I guess the opposite is Active Aggression? Like loss of temper? Never saw my wife lose her temper in 40 years. I saw her get frustrated and annoyed just a few times.

Both PA and AA exist. And Anger is there for a very good and natural reason, one of the base emotions. I don’t like either type of anger but I think give me AA because then I know what I’m dealing with and I can decide what to do based on that. It took forever to wake up to and become aware of what I was dealing with with my wife. Love is blind and all that. Strangely, a few good women friends (well married, no weird motivations that I can see) have pointed it out to me since I’ve been separated. They saw what I was unable to see.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

alphaomega said:


> Wow. Just reading that is nasty. No wonder my Stbxw had an affair. I was crazy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


AO, how did you wake up to it, become aware of it? Did you have an epiphany moment?


----------



## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

AFEH said:


> AO, how did you wake up to it, become aware of it? Did you have an epiphany moment?


Well....hmmm mm. My epiphany moment was my wifes EA. Snooping in her Emails and Texts, she said the most nasty things about me to her boyfriend. Yes, she was in the fog, but really....her justifications of the affair to him are really just highly amplified feelings she already has. And that was some nasty sh$t in those emails.

It caused a tremendous amount of self reflection. And that reflection made me realize just how PA I was. And the cure? It was so self evident it was almost cry able. Just say NO. I don't have to agree all the time, but inside hold resentment like a martyr. I don't have to do what I don't want to do. And I don't really have to take any sh$t in my life if I choose not to. MEMs boundaries posts really helped me out here.

Once I realized all this, it's like all that pent up anger inside evaporated. Because I held it all in, used it for more ammunition when I needed it. But it truly does eat you up inside. It leaves you so bitter and jaded. Best to just let it evaporate into the air like frost sublimating off the trees in the autumn mornings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> We all know where each other are vulnerable. With the right stimulus, we're capable of laying those soft places bare and ripping them with our teeth.


Not all know Conrad. Not all. I never ever once thought of where my wife might be vulnerable so I can use it to hurt. Not once did I do that. I say not once because of the 4 decades we were together. But. One time it suddenly jumped into my head just how exceptionally important it was for my wife to be thought of as a “nice person”. And I said to her something like “You are not a nice person”. And it hurt her. That and one other time are the only times I ever deliberately and consciously hurt my wife.

Since we’ve been separated I’ve deliberately hurt her a few times when she’s reached out to me. In a way I have become her. It’s that Victim Triangle thing. To get off of it the Rescuer becomes the Persecutor. And that’s exactly what happened. 

That’s what I mean by the different psyches. As soon as I realised my wife was deliberately and consciously hurting me, that it was well thought out and premeditated that was just one more reason to close my marriage down. And I’ve kept it closed down. If she reaches out to me at all, and she has, I shut her down. Even though I’m still somewhat in love with her and even though she is the mother of my two sons and she brought a lot of joy and happiness. That’s what happens Conrad.


But there’s something else. I think PAs become paranoid and deluded. Because PAs deliberately hurt other people (and most especially those like me that love them) they think other people, yes, those like me that love them, deliberately hurt them as well. So they become paranoid. And just like AO says my wife made things up to hurt me. You cannot believe (or maybe you will) the things she made up to hurt me. So they REINVENT HISTORY and they drag some supposed made up offence from years or decades back and throw it at you. And in that way you feel as though you are being persecuted.

But then they forget what was real and what they made up about their history, our history and so they are deluded. And when you try and talk with them about history you feel you are going mad because you cannot recognise what it is they are saying.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Conrad. Why are you a PA? If it’s not for public consumption PM me. I want to know. If you don’t know why tell me if you want to. Also tell me if you do not want to be a PA.


Bob,

I never wanted to be a PA.

Yet, my verbal and written communication skills are such that I simply blow people away with the vocabulary and the concise wording. Very easy for them to get intimidated and withdraw.

So, I would chase. I wanted the same approval from them I got in my boyhood home - and you get that through capability and achievement.

The more you chase, the more elusive the reward(s). So, you learn not to demand things from others. You become self-sufficient and - of course - others learn they can lean on you and take your work and help without cost.

But, inside... each time you give "more", the calculator starts to run. By the time you move to the 30 - 20 - 10 yard line, you start to look around at the other person to see if they're doing ANYTHING.... all too often, they aren't reciprocating and you begin to see betrayal.

Then the day comes when they cross "the line".

Woe be unto them.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bob,
We have this thing we do - "continuous correction" - light steady feedback. 

A "typical" conflict is under 5 minutes with no residual ill will. Equally important most conflict is handled with some humor and little if any high intensity anger/hostility. 





AFEH said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MEM, I think we can all do a bit of PA. I guess the opposite is Active Aggression? Like loss of temper? Never saw my wife lose her temper in 40 years. I saw her get frustrated and annoyed just a few times.

Both PA and AA exist. And Anger is there for a very good and natural reason, one of the base emotions. I don’t like either type of anger but I think give me AA because then I know what I’m dealing with and I can decide what to do based on that. It took forever to wake up to and become aware of what I was dealing with with my wife. Love is blind and all that. Strangely, a few good women friends (well married, no weird motivations that I can see) have pointed it out to me since I’ve been separated. They saw what I was unable to see.[/QUOTE]


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> I never wanted to be a PA.
> 
> ...


I’ve been where you describe with my wife. At times I’ve wanted her to take some task off me and do it herself. The household budget for example. But looking back I can now see the six months she spent doing “something” on the budget without any result whatsoever was passive aggression. Like a little six or seven year old child. It’s horrible horrible stuff.

But because others weren’t pulling their weight that doesn’t make either you or me a passive aggressive. It does though make us UNAPPRECIATED. And APPRECIATION and RECOGNITION BY APPRECIATION is very very high on the food list of ACHIEVERS. Achievers WANT THOSE MEDALS as proof of their achievements.

You want an achiever to keep doing things for you? Then show them, demonstrate your appreciation of them.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Lots of wisdom in those words.

Appreciation is "up" during our reconciliation.

I hope it has staying power.



AFEH said:


> I’ve been where you describe with my wife. At times I’ve wanted her to take some task off me and do it herself. The household budget for example. But looking back I can now see the six months she spent doing “something” on the budget without any result whatsoever was passive aggression. Like a little six or seven year old child. It’s horrible horrible stuff.
> 
> But because others weren’t pulling their weight that doesn’t make either you or me a passive aggressive. It does though make us UNAPPRECIATED. And APPRECIATION and RECOGNITION BY APPRECIATION is very very high on the food list of ACHIEVERS. Achievers WANT THOSE MEDALS as proof of their achievements.
> 
> You want an achiever to keep doing things for you? Then show them, demonstrate your appreciation of them.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MEM I would like to see anybody hold onto their anger when standing in front of a PA they are deeply in love with while they are doing their PA business. I got so I feared my wife with her PA stuff. At the very end it really was fight (fists) or flee. I’ve never hit a woman in my life and I wasn’t about to start then.


----------



## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Conrad ~

Very nice. I have learned more about you in this thread than in any others combined. 

I just want to share a personal experience with you for you to think about.

I have always been what we see referred to here as a "words of affirmation" person. I have always my entire life wanted people to verbalize and show me that they appreciated me - things that I did for them, things that I accomplished. Maybe that desire is there because I never actually got those kinds of things growing up - there was just this expectation that I would 'tow the line' and do all of the things that I should. As a result, I became something of an over-achiever (primarily academically) when I was younger.

Anyway, it has taken me quite some time to get to the point to realize that I cannot validate myself based upon what others do or say or do not do or do not say to me based upon my actions or accomplishments. What does matter is that I validate MYSELF by knowing, believing, and living my life in a manner that exemplifies that. I give myself that validation. Once I got to the following place of understanding, it was very freeing:

"_It is not easy to find happiness in ourselves, and it is not possible to find it elsewhere_." ~Agnes Repplier

Of course, if any one ever wants to throw some spare appreciation my way, I will glady catch it. 

But, after this realization, I have come to be a lot more appreciative of others. We all are inter-connected and seemingly the smallest things can have a great impact in another's life. So, I want you to know that I appreciate your contributions here. 

Wishing you all the best.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

alphaomega said:


> Well....hmmm mm. My epiphany moment was my wifes EA. Snooping in her Emails and Texts, she said the most nasty things about me to her boyfriend. Yes, she was in the fog, but really....her justifications of the affair to him are really just highly amplified feelings she already has. And that was some nasty sh$t in those emails.
> 
> It caused a tremendous amount of self reflection. And that reflection made me realize just how PA I was. And the cure? It was so self evident it was almost cry able. Just say NO. I don't have to agree all the time, but inside hold resentment like a martyr. I don't have to do what I don't want to do. And I don't really have to take any sh$t in my life if I choose not to. MEMs boundaries posts really helped me out here.
> 
> ...


It sounds like looked at your Shadow when you read those. Our shadow is basically our negative effects on other people. It’s a concept from Carl Jung. People don’t normally see their shadow, it’s hidden from them. But another person can see our shadow quite clearly. As it’s the negative aspects of our personality people don’t like telling us what they see.

So in a way you’ve been blessed in that you’ve seen your shadow and now you are doing things about it. I think our shadow is the hardest thing to come to terms with about our personality and I think you have done immensely well. You are making the great moral efforts needed to come to terms with your shadow and it is a great step on your path to individuation..

_Shadow

Hidden or unconscious aspects of oneself, both good and bad, which the ego has either repressed or never recognized. (See also repression.)

The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. ["The Shadow," CW 9ii, par. 14.]

Before unconscious contents have been differentiated, the shadow is in effect the whole of the unconscious. It is commonly personified in dreams by persons of the same sex as the dreamer.

The shadow is composed for the most part of repressed desires and uncivilized impulses, morally inferior motives, childish fantasies and resentments, etc. ... all those things about oneself one is not proud of. These unacknowledged personal characteristics are often experienced in others through the mechanism of projection.

Although, with insight and good will, the shadow can to some extent be assimilated into the conscious personality, experience shows that there are certain features which offer the most obstinate resistance to moral control and prove almost impossible to influence. These resistances are usually bound up with projections, which are not recognized as such, and their recognition is a moral achievement beyond the ordinary. While some traits peculiar to the shadow can be recognized without too much difficulty as one's personal qualities, in this case both insight and good will are unavailing because the cause of the emotion appears to lie, beyond all possibility of doubt, in the other person. [Ibid., par. 16.]

The realization of the shadow is inhibited by the persona. To the degree that we identify with a bright persona, the shadow is correspondingly dark. Thus shadow and persona stand in a compensatory relationship, and the conflict between them is invariably present in an outbreak of neurosis. The characteristic depression at such times indicates the need to realize that one is not all one pretends or wishes to be.

There is no generally effective technique for assimilating the shadow. It is more like diplomacy or statesmanship and it is always an individual matter. First one has to accept and take seriously the existence of the shadow. Second, one has to become aware of its qualities and intentions. This happens through conscientious attention to moods, fantasies and impulses. Third, a long process of negotiation is unavoidable.

It is a therapeutic necessity, indeed, the first requisite of any thorough psychological method, for consciousness to confront its shadow. In the end this must lead to some kind of union, even though the union consists at first in an open conflict, and often remains so for a long time. It is a struggle that cannot be abolished by rational means. When it is wilfully repressed it continues in the unconscious and merely expresses itself indirectly and all the more dangerously, so no advantage is gained. The struggle goes on until the opponents run out of breath. What the outcome will be can never be seen in advance. The only certain thing is that both parties will be changed. ["Rex and Regina," CW 14, par. 514.]

This process of coming to terms with the Other in us is well worth while, because in this way we get to know aspects of our nature which we would not allow anybody else to show us and which we ourselves would never have admitted. [The Conjunction," ibid., par. 706.]

Responsibility for the shadow rests with the ego. That is why the shadow is a moral problem. It is one thing to realize what it looks like ... what we are capable of. It is quite something else to determine what we can live out, or with.

Confrontation with the shadow produces at first a dead balance, a standstill that hampers moral decisions and makes convictions ineffective or even impossible. Everything becomes doubtful. [Ibid., par. 708.]

The shadow is not, however, only the dark underside of the personality. It also consists of instincts, abilities and positive moral qualities that have long been buried or never been conscious.

The shadow is merely somewhat inferior, primitive, unadapted, and awkward; not wholly bad. It even contains childish or primitive qualities which would in a way vitalize and embellish human existence, but ... convention forbids![Psychology and Religion," CW 11, par. 134.]

If it has been believed hitherto that the human shadow was the source of all evil, it can now be ascertained on closer investigation that the unconscious man, that is, his shadow, does not consist only of morally reprehensible tendencies, but also displays a number of good qualities, such as normal instincts, appropriate reactions, realistic insights, creative impulses, etc. [Conclusion," CW 9ii, par. 423.]

An outbreak of neurosis constellates both sides of the shadow: those qualities and activities one is not proud of, and new possibilities one never knew were there.

Jung distinguished between the personal and the collective or archetypal shadow.

With a little self criticism one can see through the shadow ... so far as its nature is personal. But when it appears as an archetype, one encounters the same difficulties as with anima and animus. In other words, it is quite within the bounds of possibility for a man to recognize the relative evil of his nature, but it is a rare and shattering experience for him to gaze into the face of absolute evil. ["The Shadow," ibid., par. 19.]_


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> Conrad ~
> 
> Very nice. I have learned more about you in this thread than in any others combined.
> 
> ...


“No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."



Yes we are all interconnected and that is why I totally disagree with _"It is not easy to find happiness in ourselves, and it is not possible to find it elsewhere." ~Agnes Repplier._

There are many things that can make me feel happy and bring a smile to my face. I watched a young lad and his little dog running along the beach and in the water this afternoon their antics made me chuckle out loud as it did the people around, it was contagious. And are you going to tell me a smile from a little baby is not going to make you feel warm and happy inside of you and bring a smile to your face. And what about the very special well thought out birthday present, don’t those things bring joy and happiness into you?

Of course other people are our happiness! Of course they are. What about those father’s day cards with those very special words inside. And we can also bring joy and happiness to ourselves. I’ve got back into gardening and as I go on my walks I’m taking cuttings of plants I see and like. I’ve been doing this for about 5 months and now my back balcony is full of leaves and flowers from the plants grown from the cuttings. I’m still in awe of that stuff and every time I look at them I feel happy.

And if other people can bring us joy and happiness they sure as heck can bring us the opposite, sadness and sometimes anger and despair and a lot of pain.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bob,

Do we choose to feel that pain?


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> Do we choose to feel that pain?


I think sometimes we can drown ourselves in pain rather than understand it, where it came from and why we feel it and work our way through it.

*We let go of the pain by forgiving the person who caused it.*

But I don’t think we get to choose to feel it or not. Take the death of a son or daughter. Do the parents get to feel their pain, or not? I don’t think they get to choose. They are going to feel very deep pain and will more than likely be traumatised. And that pain will in some way or another stay with them until the day they die themselves.

But we do get to choose as to whether we put ourselves up for the same pain again. With my PA wife I got some deep pain. But I always worked my way through it and forgave her and I always tried to teach her better ways. Mr Codependent me. But then I discovered boundaries and I put them up like a nuclear bunker so she never got to do the same thing again. I made myself invulnerable to her antics but even then she tried to blast away my new found boundaries. That’s when I knew it was over and for all intents and purposes aside from the divorce ejected her from my life.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

It’s funny in some ways. My wife and I really did separate over a clash of our Golden Rules.

I have the Golden Rule: ALWAYS FORGIVE. My wife has the opposite Golden Rule: NEVER EVER FORGIVE. I knew that as soon as I put up my boundaries and she tried to trash them. She was totally and utterly intransigent and so was I. There was going to be no compromise whatsoever.

My understanding is that the vast majority of marriages fail due a clash of Golden Rules and Golden Values.


----------



## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

AFEH said:


> “No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yah - I agree with what you are saying. There's so much joy in the simple things of life, for sure. 

I was using the quote more in the sense of personal empowerment - we are the only ones that can empower ourselves and it's not always easy. No one else can take my journey of personal fulfillment and learning for me. Yah - probably should have chosen a better quote.

And certainly I can choose to look at the more positive things in my life - I can choose to 'stop and smell the roses' each day or I can choose to simply walk on by. Life certainly is much sweeter when we do try to stop and smell the roses (or take a cutting of something to take home  ).


----------



## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> Do we choose to feel that pain?


Bobs pain was different. Because he didn't understand it. He loved his wife so so much, but he couldn't understand her anger. For many days it was probably wonderful with his wife. The most blissful moments. But then she would strike out. Lash out. And it was so subtle he probably didn't understand why there was anger from her. Or even if his resentment or disappointment was justified by him. 

This is the tool of the PA. It starts small. Usually at the beginning it feels like a blip in the marriage. But after years those blips become more frequent and longer in duration. But, as the tool of the PA wears you down, it must have taken years of this behavior to manifest itself to the point where bob just couldn't take it anymore. 

You look for the best in the marriage. And bobs wife probably showed him her best. But when she got bad, it was so evilly bad. And Bob probably was questioning himself right to the bitter end If it was him. 

True PA is evil. Because it's sooo subtle. Those that master that art will keep you guessing for years.

Does this sound correct, bob? 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

My shadow? Sure, I guess. It was a very dark shadow indeed. 

That's why I think my wife's EA and possibly Physicsl Affair was the best thing that happened to me. 

Sure, it sucked. But I never would have the state of mind for inner reflection because of it. 

It's strange, really. Or perhaps rather obvious. All my relationships in my life ended the same way. Cheating. When i was younger, though, I would just dump my girlfriend. But then, after marriage, with just a repeat of my previous experiences, I started to think that it wasn't the woman I was with. It was me. And how so correct I was. 

After that realization, you kinda gotta figure you need to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

My wife is a control freak paranoid with overtones of psychopathic tendencies. Sometimes being passive aggressive is the only useful defense. It's not especially noble, it's just survival.


----------



## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Conrad,

Are you truly PA to some extent, or maybe it just takes you onger to realize someone just mind fkd you? THEN you would lash out. 

There is a big difference. And the recognition of your response to the 'slight' you recievd just comes with practice. Usually, we expect the best from everyone in our life, so when someone psses us off, it takes a while to register.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> My wife is a control freak paranoid with overtones of psychopathic tendencies. Sometimes being passive aggressive is the only useful defense. It's not especially noble, it's just survival.


You hone, polish and perfect your passive aggressive skills because that’s what you want to do! It has nothing to do with your wife, that “She made me do it!”. Every time you carry out a passive aggressive attack it’s because that is what you want to do. You sit down and plan on ways of causing your wife a great deal of pain and then you actually carry it out. And you are the one calling your wife a control freak paranoid with overtones of psychopathic tendencies. And justify it all by calling it a defence. Amazing.

Be careful RLD. In my experience it gets a great deal worse with age, I see it in my wife’s family. It’s terrible stuff.

Of course you could always take the high road like AO and actually be Noble. But that's not want you want to do is it. Even though you have that choice.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Amazing to you, trench warfare to me.


----------



## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Amazing to you, trench warfare to me.


But why put up with it? If it's that bad, have you considered leaving for calmer waters?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Runs,
Why do you stay? And please don't tell me that she will have you arrested for leaving her. You describe having a job that requires brains, planning and restraint. It is simply not that hard to extract yourself from a marriage if you really WANT to.

And please don't tell me it is about the money. Because that isn't so either. The type of job you have - even a divide by two on assets and income you would be fine. 

So momentarily dispense with your "slave to her" mindset and tell us why you stay with someone so awful. 




Runs like Dog said:


> Amazing to you, trench warfare to me.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

alphaomega said:


> But why put up with it? If it's that bad, have you considered leaving for calmer waters?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is a longer run plan, yes.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> So momentarily dispense with your "slave to her" mindset and tell us why you stay with someone so awful.


I've never asserted that. I'd say it's more to do with utter indifference at this point. True, absolute, don't give a crap either way.


----------



## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Runs like Dog said:


> I've never asserted that. I'd say it's more to do with utter indifference at this point. True, absolute, don't give a crap either way.


But, this is your life you're talking about. You only get one.

Is this how you think you should feel?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

As I read this, I don't think I'm truly PA.

I give 'em quite a bit of rope - and figure that I'm able to fix things that are missing.

But, I really like MEM's football field analogy. If I stay around the 50 or 40 yard line (in terms of giving), I'm aok.

If I move to the 25 or the 20..? It better be really important to me. And, the ante increases for a positive response from the other side.

What I'm realizing is that I need to confirm the sincerity of the other side sooner - rather than assuming they'll just automatically respond to my "glorious" vision.




alphaomega said:


> Conrad,
> 
> Are you truly PA to some extent, or maybe it just takes you onger to realize someone just mind fkd you? THEN you would lash out.
> 
> ...


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> As I read this, I don't think I'm truly PA.
> 
> I give 'em quite a bit of rope - and figure that I'm able to fix things that are missing.
> 
> ...


Isn’t everything we do in life teamwork? Don’t we always work as a team with our doctor, bank manager, architect, plumber, electrician, gardener, husband, wife etc. And as a member of a team we have specific roles in whatever it is the team is doing. But what if a team member simply cannot perform their role? Then as the leader of the team or the one with the overriding need to “get there”/achieve the objective we must either educate/train them/get someone else to do their job/do it ourselves.

But what if we know full well that that team member is fully capable of doing their tasks but they aren’t doing them and they aren’t asking for any help. Then the only conclusion we can come to is that they are withholding their services deliberately. It is a deliberate action to cause the project to fail or at the very least to frustrate the project and cause at least discomfort and confusion to the other team members.

There’s a test for passive aggression at Passive Aggressive Test |. I got ...

_Your results are normal/flexible.

You know how to respond to other people’s sincere requests. You are able to hear what their needs are, and provide some coherent and adequate response to them.

Perhaps you are somehow empathetic to others’ feelings? That would be great to keep people around you happy and cooperating with you!

It would be useful to learn some conciliatory ways of expressing dissent, by using normal expressions like: “I hear what you are saying as…”

Probably you are already aware of how much your inner child is talking through you, but really, really letting him play would be even better! Get some release for creative impulses when you care less about critiquing others and more about finding new ways of appreciating them. Then, fun begins and your mind is released to ask the magical question:
“What if I do x?”
“What if I find new and funnier ways of giving honest feedback?”

As you can see, this list is really endless! In the case that you would like to really become a master in interpersonal negotiations, at home and at work, it would be great to learn the conflict management strategies available now.
_


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> I've never asserted that. I'd say it's more to do with utter indifference at this point. True, absolute, don't give a crap either way.


Ha! Surely nobody’s passive aggressive towards someone they’re indifferent to. You have to seriously dislike a person to intentionally harm them. And surely, as far as her relationship with you is concerned, your wife is not paranoid because you are out to get her!


----------



## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Yeah. RLD, that doesn't sound like PA, but rather more like pure Apathy.

Considering they have the same acronym, is this what you meant?

If your at apathy, I think your already way out of Dodge in your marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HelloooNurse (Apr 12, 2010)

Passive aggression is great because you can achieve the desired outcome WITHOUT technically doing anything wrong. All the aggression is communicated via indirect methods and inference. I have always looked at it like a skill, rather than a bad quality about yourself. The thing is, to really use this skill correctly, you need to pick and choose when to use it. Don't just whip it out at every opportunity (thus borking your marriage, etc), use it selectively. That way, you don't hurt the people around you, you still get what you want, and you don't fk up your marriage. Save it for important things such as bartering with the sales guy for something you want, or at work (especially if you work in a high-powered business environment - it works great there).


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

To be on the receiving end, PA feels like one of the most evil things on the planet. But I'm sure there're a lot worse things. Just hope no one finds you out and takes their revenge out on you. And there a lot better and more honourable ways to get what you want out of life.


----------

