# Wife has very low self-image



## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

Just moved this from a different forum. I think it was in the wrong place...

Anyway, here's the deal (help if you can, please):

I'm 39 & wife is 40. We've been married 8 years & have 2 young daughters. We are Christians & that's the most important part of our lives. My wife has always had body image issues, and had struggled with eating disorders since she was 15 until becoming pregnant with our first child almost 7 years ago. She stopped the binging/purging stuff when she became pregnant & hasn't turned back. She did begin running, and even completed a few 1/2 marathons & 2 full ones! For a 40-year-old mother of 2, she truly looks fantastic! And, yes, I do tell her so. Other people compliment her on her rockin' bod often too. In fact, the other day she posted something on facebook about a female 40-something celeb wearing leather pants, & how it gave her hope, & her friends all replied that she could totally pull it off! Of course, she's not perfect, but who is? Not me! Even when in the height of marathon training, she finds ways to be critical of herself (loose skin around her tummy, small boobs, "saggy butt, etc..") Honestly, I don't even notice such things. She's H-O-T to me, even when not in training. I lust for her still.

We did some marital counseling all last year, after she admitted to me that she's never enjoyed sex, never had an orgasm & would be happy in a sexless marriage. In her 20's she was quite promiscuous, and even put herself into a gang rape situation. This was covered in our marriage counseling & she did some pretty in-depth individual counseling too. I was hopeful.

During our counseling I admitted that during our "dry spells" I'd have impure thoughts about other women. She now brings that up, & will add that I said I wanted to cheat on her with younger women who have better bodies. Honestly, I never said anything like that - only "impure thoughts," & that was related to not ever having intimacy with HER & had nothing to do with appearances.

So, while our sex life has recently increased to about once per week, it remains pretty basic, she prefers the lights out, & often gets silly/giggly, constantly indicates how "fat" she is becoming, & I just don't feel very passionately engaged. Sometimes I think she wants to turn me off in hopes of slowing my libido towards her(?). She thinks of most sex beyond the missionary position to be silly/dirty because now she's a "mom," or something like that.

She does have orgasms now, which is an improvement, but she is still not very motivated.

I am in good shape as well, & she's even commented that it's unfair that I still look good & she does not. That's pretty ridiculous too, because she gets complimented all the time on her appearance, & not just by me! 

I feel like she doesn't believe me when I tell her she's beautiful, & what's more is that she dismisses God's view of her as beautiful. 

I'm not sure if she needs more counseling or what to do...


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

I think it is hard to change your self-image. I don't have a very high opinion of myself, mostly because of childhood situations. It really doesn't matter if someone compliments me because I never really believe it. It's like sometimes you see very heavy people wearing tight revealing clothes and they think their hot and you couldn't change their mind. They have alot of confidence and someone who actually looks fantastic can have no confidence. It's all about self-image and I don't know how you change that.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

My wife is different from yours in that she loves sex. But over the last year or two she's been dealing with self esteem and body image issues. She's gained some weight over the last decade, and while she use to be fine with it, she had an awakening and realized that she wanted to go into her 30's in the best shape of her life. This has made her more weight conscious than she's ever been in her entire life. She's always been a slower weight loser, so that's led to a lot of discouragement and frustration. During low periods, it has affected the frequency of our sex life (sometimes down to only once a week, which is low for us).

I'll tell you what I did, because this conversation just came up earlier in the week. 

I have been very patient with her regarding these issues, because I too use to have very severe body image problems that I, on some levels, am still recovering from. But I told her enough was enough. It came up that we'd not been having sex as much over the year, or damn near a year. Now this has come up a few times before, but I chose not to take it anywhere. But this time enough was enough. She started talking about how she's been feeling so fat, and I literally said "I don't give a damn!". 

She was surprised, because usually I'm pretty understanding. But I told her that this crap has come to pass. I reminded her that I will NEVER live in a sexless or sexlite marriage, and that she use to feel the same way too. She told me she still does, but that these body image issues have just gotten her down. I reiterated that I don't care about that anymore. I love her, I'm attracted to her, and I need to make love to her. I told her that she's been having these up and downs over the last year, and that I've been very patient, but that my patience is finished. 

I then took her into the next room to make love. She was really shy, and sheepish, and giggly at first. I just kept holding her, kept kissing her, and broke past all that girlish insecurity. We ended up having some of the best sex we've had in quite awhile, with multiple orgasms for us both. And we've done it three times this week, and will do it again today, AND I've turned her down twice in addition to all of that because she's just ravenous.

There comes a point where a man has to say enough is enough. 
You do not deserve to have your sex life, your vital connection to your wife, severed because she thinks it's OK to be on an endless journey down a road of low self esteem. My wife tried to remind me that she's been struggling, as if the very presence of the struggle gives her free license to wallow until she some day magically feels better. That was meant with a HELL NO, and it got us instantly back on track.

Stop asking for sex. Stop being endlessly patient. Let her know that you adore her, need her, and that you are done waiting. And let her either respond to that by moving past these issues enough to screw your brains out, or start talking about what your marriage will be like when once you've walked out the door.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Some folks have their minds in the heavens and do not take care of their earthly duties. Get with the program. Your wife has needs.

Meaning? Stop being overly religious about this stuff. This is NOT helping. She is a women at age 40. That is a big deal to many. Start rocking her world. Read Married Man's Sex Life.

Do not allow this to progress where she is seeking male validation outside your marriage. Fall back in love with her. Date her. Make her feel sexy and desired. Make her feel you cannot get enough of her. Take her like you mean it from time to time. 

Also do His Needs Her Needs together. This is to foster communication, find out where her head is at, find out what her needs really are AND to ensure that boundaries with the opposite sex are not sliding.

Now since it sounds like there was a gang rape involved here you are in special territory for sure. You may need some IC on this yourself.

This said, she was not having orgasms but does now. Ok fine. Hopefully she is not faking it.

Does she work? What does she do with her free time? Do you guys spend a good amount of one on one time every week? Who are her friends?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

monkeyboy said:


> Just moved this from a different forum. I think it was in the wrong place...
> 
> Anyway, here's the deal (help if you can, please):


Okay, it's Sunday, so I will bring this week's Sunday School lesson. It's for the *Adult* Sunday School class, okay? And it's going to be a "Christian" lesson, not a "Churchian" lesson. That means we're not going to bother with the usual neo-platonic crap that has infested churchianity since 150 AD.



monkeyboy said:


> I'm 39 & wife is 40. We've been married 8 years & have 2 young daughters.


Even by the late standards of today, that's a late marriage. Were either of you married before?



monkeyboy said:


> We are Christians & that's the most important part of our lives.


As it should be.



monkeyboy said:


> My wife has always had body image issues, and had struggled with eating disorders since she was 15 until becoming pregnant with our first child almost 7 years ago. She stopped the binging/purging stuff when she became pregnant & hasn't turned back. She did begin running, and even completed a few 1/2 marathons & 2 full ones! For a 40-year-old mother of 2, she truly looks fantastic! And, yes, I do tell her so. Other people compliment her on her rockin' bod often too. In fact, the other day she posted something on facebook about a female 40-something celeb wearing leather pants, & how it gave her hope, & her friends all replied that she could totally pull it off! Of course, she's not perfect, but who is? Not me! Even when in the height of marathon training, she finds ways to be critical of herself (loose skin around her tummy, small boobs, "saggy butt, etc..") Honestly, I don't even notice such things. She's H-O-T to me, even when not in training. I *lust* for her still.


Lust is the English translation of the original Greek _epithumia
_ it means "overwhelming desire". It's a good thing. Marathoning is not particularly healthy. In fact, it probably promotes age related sarcopenia. She needs to start lifting and reversing the muscle loss. Lots of squats and proper low carb eating will eliminate the saggy butt syndrome.

What does your body look like? Do you catch women staring at you? Does your wife run her hand up and down your ladder-like abs and say "I love your beautiful body?"



monkeyboy said:


> We did some marital counseling all last year, after she admitted to me that she's *never enjoyed sex, never had an orgasm* & would be *happy in a sexless marriage*.


All three of those statements are highly dubious.



monkeyboy said:


> In her 20's she was quite promiscuous, and even put herself into a gang rape situation. This was covered in our marriage counseling & she did some pretty in-depth individual counseling too. I was hopeful.


What about her teens? Was she promiscuous then or a goody two shoes? Was she raised in church?

Was that "gang rape" or consensual "gang bang"?

What is your pre-marriage sexual experience? Do women hit on you a lot? How about when you were 20 or so?



monkeyboy said:


> During our counseling I admitted that during our "dry spells" I'd have impure thoughts about other women.


What are "impure thoughts?" That's not a biblical term that I am familiar with. Enlighten me.



monkeyboy said:


> She now brings that up, & will add that I said I wanted to cheat on her with younger women who have better bodies. Honestly, I never said anything like that - only "impure thoughts," & that was related to not ever having intimacy with HER & had nothing to do with appearances.


Her rationalization hamster is using this admission on your part of what is probably an imaginary "sin" to justify her unsatisfactory performance in the primary wifely duty. In the Bible, this is referred to as "bullocks dung."



monkeyboy said:


> So, while our sex life has recently increased to about once per week, it remains pretty basic, she prefers the lights out, & often gets silly/giggly, constantly indicates how "fat" she is becoming, & I just don't feel very passionately engaged. Sometimes I think she wants to turn me off in hopes of slowing my libido towards her(?). She thinks of most sex beyond the missionary position to be silly/dirty because now she's a "mom," or something like that.


Sounds to me like you just don't do it for her. However, that can be fixed. The other problem is that long distance running lowers BF which reduces testosterone. Sarcopenia is probably related to that as well, so you get a low test feedback loop going. The body interprets the stress of endurance training to indicate difficult times on the hunter gatherer front and cuts back on the libido to reduce the chance of producing offspring in a famine or war time. Test is the libido hormone. You need to get it ramped up.



monkeyboy said:


> She does have orgasms now, which is an improvement, but she is still not very motivated.


why does she have them now? What changed?



monkeyboy said:


> I am in good shape as well, & she's even commented that it's unfair that I still look good & she does not. That's pretty ridiculous too, because she gets complimented all the time on her appearance, & not just by me!


She's craving male validation and not from you. In her mind, you have to do that, so you don't count. It's good that you look good, though? What's your numbers? Chest? Waist right below ribcage? Biceps flexed? Neck? Calves? Thighs? Height? Weight?

How do you dress each day? Typical 21st century slob/prole or do you look sharp? What kind of bike do you ride? Hog Chopper or Indian Chief? What kind of piece do you carry?



monkeyboy said:


> I feel like she doesn't believe me when I tell her she's beautiful, & what's more is that she dismisses God's view of her as beautiful.


_"for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."_ Right now, she's much more interested in *men* looking upon and praising her outward appearance than she is in the LORD's opinion.



monkeyboy said:


> I'm not sure if she needs more counseling or what to do...


You're the guy who needs to act. She probably doesn't need anything. First you need to recognize that godliness is not a turn-on for a woman. It will be if you have a lot of followers, but that's something different. Here's a good article by Vox Day that discusses it. Vox is in thrall to Churchianity on most sexual issues, but this article is right on. Read all around his site to start learning about women and what makes them tick from a Christian perspective.

Also, Entropy has recommended Athol Kay's great book Married Man Sex Life Primer. Get it and read it. Don't let your wife catch you reading it. You want her to experience the results of your new knowledge. Athol is a Godless Ex-Christian but this has no impact on the truth of his advice on how to increase and maintain sexual attraction in a marriage.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback so far. I'm going to try and answer some of the questions that were posted. 

Yes, we married in our early 30's and it was the first marriage for both of us. 

I don't know what "age related sarcopenia" is but I'll look it up and check it out. Running is the only thing she's really enjoyed in terms of exercise, which is somewhat annoying to me, because in the winter if she can't run outside she does nothing. She refused to even run on a treadmill. Then she's grumpy with an even lower self-esteem. I think the low SE is at the center of many things though. She could get good at so many different athletic activities if she wanted (weightlifting, cycling, swimming, yoga, pilates, etc.), but I think she's afraid of how she'll look, what others will think, etc. 

I would not say my wife was promiscuous as a teen, though she lost her virginity at 15. I'm really not sure how much she got around after that, but I don't think too much until college years. She's still somewhat closed off with me though about her promiscuity. I was 19 when I lost my virginity and probably only had 5 or 5 partner altogether before her. 

I wouldn't say women hit on me a lot, or ever have. I'm an attractive guy. I have a 6-pack (sometimes just a 4-pack in the winter months), exercise 5 times per week, eat well, have all my hair, etc. I don't have my measurements, but I'm not overweight or underweight. I am short, so that I think has sometimes kept me from standing out in terms of attracting women superficially. I consider myself intelligent, caring, pretty darn funny/witty and easy to get along with. I'm probably more of a "beta" guy, though the more I'm reading here and elsewhere that is probably something I need to work on. I figured I was safe to be a "nice guy" once the wedding vows were taken, but apparently not? Yes, I dress nice. Not over the top flashy, but I like to look good on a consistent basis. I'm a 39-year-old professional, so I think it's important to not look like a slacker.

Yes, it was a gang rape, not a gang bang. She did not want to do it, but as she describes it, she put herself into an unsafe situation with a bunch of idiot guys and she was very intoxicated. No excuse for those guys, but I think she's just trying to acknowledge her mistakes as well in the whole thing.

My "impure thoughts" have to do with ideas of having an affair and things like that. Not usually so much sexual, though that's part of it, but mostly I think because I'd like to be with someone that I feel admires, respects and is attracted to me. My wife doesn't show much interest in those ways lately, so there have been many times my mind has wandered into thinking about what life would be like with someone else. It's probably more about feeling lonely than anything else.

According to her, it's not specifically me that doesn't do it for her, she just has a low sex-drive. She doesn't fantasize about other men, doesn't masturbate when I'm not around, doesn't think about sex, etc. She tells me she thinks I'm attractive, but just doesn't feel very sexual. When she did individual counseling there was some focus on that, but I'm not sure it did much ago. Of course, I think that also had to do with my wife not wanting to pursue the ways in which she could improve that part of her life. She just didn't want me to be miserable, I think, instead of wanting to improve the quality of her own life in that way.

To tell the truth, I can't say for sure that she doesn't fake orgasms. We did some work on this during therapy, based upon some direction we were given to spend time just touching each other and discovering what we like and communicating with each other. She tells me she's been able to achieve O now when I rub her clitoris rather aggressively, and it would seem that is the case. If she's acting she's become really good! Then again though, she faked before some who am I to judge? It's certainly an area of distrust for me. But...that's probably not my major issue anyway. I just want us to work on having more of a spark in our sexual relationship.

Like I said before, I think if anything I've been overly-attentive to her needs, wishes and desires (or lack thereof, I guess). I've tried about every avenue I can think of when it comes to romance, creativity, acts of service, etc. 

I think a really big frustration for me right now is her continued lack of respect of my need for a deeper level physical connection to her. Many things she described as needs over this past year I've met full on. Helping with kids more, cleaning, family fun nights, going out on date nights more, etc. If I said what she seems to be saying, which is, "Oh, I don't really enjoy those things, so I'll step it up a bit for you by about 50%, but don't expect me to really get into it." she'd be furious with me. Yet, that is how she responds to my sexual needs. She makes it a point to try and have sex once per week, but there is very little newness or fun about it. Does that make sense?

I have a friend who has had affairs and makes the point to tell me that he always just does the minimum in his marriage, because otherwise his wife EXPECTS and gets spoiled by all those special things he does. Plus, he said when had the affairs and it came out to his wife that it was a hugh wake up call to her to start taking matters into her own hands (so to speak). She acknowledged that she was not taking care of his needs and things began to improve in that area. Of course, there were many other problems that came about as a result of the affair.

Of course, I'm not trying to convince myself, or have my friend convince, to go have an affair to improve my marriage, but the theory makes some sense to me. Maybe I do work too hard and worry too much about our marriage and need to back way off on that. Maybe it's time for her to start fighting for us instead of me?

More thoughts?

I do appreciate the suggestions that have been offered so far.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

I wanted to add one very important thing, just so I am totally clear. I am very much in love with my wife still. I think she's a caring, kind-hearted, funny, & sexy woman. She still turns me on. I really don't want anyone but her. She's all I look for in a woman, minus the self-esteem & sexual issues. Before our 2nd child, we had a very fun, active & exciting sex life. 

I just want that part of my wife back that left for some reason.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Machiavelli said:


> You're the guy who needs to act. She probably doesn't need anything.


monkeyboy,

It sounds to me like you are letting your wife's feelings, motivations, (lack of) desire, (lack of) interest have way too much effect on your feelings, motivations, desire, interest and most of all, your behavior.

Whatever her problems may be, let her own them. Accept that you can't make her anything and you only have control over yourself (at best). The spark that's missing here is spark that comes from you as you appear to be letting her baggage weigh you down. 

You are lucky to have come to the understanding of the effect of your wife's self image on her libido. Now I would ask you to begin to understand your effect on her self image. I seriously don't believe you have even come close to exhausting all the things you could do and say that would make her feel better about herself. In fact, I detect a slight sense of entitlement in that "I've done everything I can, now it's her turn". Please. You are the man here, there is a plenty more you can do. Don't take your cues from her, let her take her cues from you. Validate her, don't look to be validated by her. Lift her up with your positive attitudes, don't let her affect your attitude with her negativity


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

I can't say I disagree with any of your insights, Ten Year Hubby. I do feel somewhat entitled to intimacy in my relationship though, and I sort of feel like I_ should_ feel that way. Aren't we mutually entitled to care for one another's needs? I don't know if "entitled" is the right word there or not.:scratchhead:

So, what are some tips about what I can do or say to her to increase her self-esteem and feelings for me? Anyone have thoughts? I know that seems like a stupid question, but I think I just feel like my tank is a bit empty. Maybe there is more that I should do.

Or, maybe it's just time for me to leave it be and let the cards fall where they may. It's frustrating to be the only who seems concerned with the issue. Kind of like you and Machiavelli pointed out; I'm making it my problem it would seem - she doesn't have a problem.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

monkeyboy said:


> I'm probably more of a "beta" guy, though the more I'm reading here and elsewhere that is probably something I need to work on. I figured I was safe to be a "nice guy" once the wedding vows were taken, but apparently not?


Nobody is safe.



monkeyboy said:


> My "impure thoughts" have to do with ideas of having an affair and things like that....


Those aren't impure thoughts, that's "rational consideration". You decided not to be a d-bag and that was the right decision. There is no way she can _rationally_ hold that against you.



monkeyboy said:


> According to her, it's not specifically me that doesn't do it for her, she just has a low sex-drive. *She doesn't fantasize about other men, doesn't masturbate when I'm not around, doesn't think about sex, etc.* She tells me she thinks I'm attractive, but just doesn't feel very sexual.


Assuming all of that is true, she needs to get her hormone levels checked. No testosterone = no sexual desire. It should be 30-80 ng/dL or so, depending on the "authority."



monkeyboy said:


> When she did individual counseling there was some focus on that, but I'm not sure it did much ago. Of course, I think that also had to do with my wife not wanting to pursue the ways in which she could improve that part of her life.


She may feel like she doesn't want to reawaken her libido, because she feels it could get out of control. She may fear becoming hypersexual once again. That's probably a risk you're willing to take. 



monkeyboy said:


> Of course, I'm not trying to convince myself, or have my friend convince, to go have an affair to improve my marriage, but the theory makes some sense to me. Maybe I do work too hard and worry too much about our marriage and need to back way off on that. Maybe it's time for her to start fighting for us instead of me?


Quit thinking about having affairs, that's not what was in your marriage contract/vows. Having said that, access to regular sex is the reason most men get married in the first place. Prior to the adoption of the Puritan marriage model in the English speaking world, there was really no expectation of male sexual monogamy. But, the Puritan's allowed for divorce when regular sex was not forthcoming. You'll have to figure out what your beliefs are on the issue. 

I would recommend that you start running Athol Kay's MAP and see what happens. In the end, you've only got a small number of options depending on whether or not she comes around when you start to man up.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Any chance of sex abuse when she was a child?

Has she had good qualified psychotherapy for the rape?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You have impure thoughts? The only time I ever saw that expression was in a movie that had a plot line from the 1950's with teenage boys doing confession.

These thoughts you have are NORMAL THOUGHTS and reactions to a wife who does not meet your emotional needs. You need to own your thoughts and realize that your wife's lack of love for you has opened the door for this. 




monkeyboy said:


> I can't say I disagree with any of your insights, Ten Year Hubby. I do feel somewhat entitled to intimacy in my relationship though, and I sort of feel like I_ should_ feel that way. Aren't we mutually entitled to care for one another's needs? I don't know if "entitled" is the right word there or not.:scratchhead:
> .


YOu sort of feel that way? What are you a wet noodle? Own your feelings. Your hesiation about your own feelings is simply fear that if you express or own what you feel that your wife wont LIKE you any more. Own your feelings and desires. Know what you want in your marriage.



monkeyboy said:


> So, what are some tips about what I can do or say to her to increase her self-esteem and feelings for me? Anyone have thoughts? I know that seems like a stupid question, but I think I just feel like my tank is a bit empty. Maybe there is more that I should do.
> .


Tell her she is great. Tell her she is beatiful. Tell her she is great mother. Tell her she is a great person. Tell her you are proud of her acommplishments. When she talks badly about herself tell her to leave the room. Tell her that she does not get to decide what YOU think. Tell her her poor attidude about herself is a huge turn off. If she says something negative tell her do not speak about yourself like that.



monkeyboy said:


> Or, maybe it's just time for me to leave it be and let the cards fall where they may. It's frustrating to be the only who seems concerned with the issue. Kind of like you and Machiavelli pointed out; I'm making it my problem it would seem - she doesn't have a problem.


You don't do one of the other, you do both at the same time! You decide how your marriage needs to be, how your wife needs to express herself.... YOU decide who she is, what she means to you and her family and YOU constantly express that... Also decide in your heart that if your wife cannot be the wife you need, cannot see herself as you see her, then she needs to decide whether to be your wife, accept your terms, or decide for herself to exit the marriage.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

jaquen said:


> ...
> 
> I'll tell you what I did, because this conversation just came up earlier in the week.
> 
> ...


I think Jaquen makes a good suggestion here, as far as the "I don't care" goes. It reminded me of this article, (don't judge the source! She's got some good material sometimes!) How to Love Unconditionally - Martha Beck's Advice - Oprah.com

Given that your wife has a prior rape experience (that's just awful by the way, I feel terrible for both of you), I think leading her into the next room for sex might not be as safe as it would be for a woman without that prior experience. But I WOULD follow up the "I don't care" with some unapologetic display of physical affection. And if it seems right to you in the moment, then yes do take it on to sex. 

That "I don't care" card only works if you're the kind of guy who doesn't normally say things like that, and it'll get her attention. It isn't a card you can or should play often. But, I think in terms of her self-image issues, it might be the right move. 

It must be unapologetic, or it's not going to work. 

Also, you mention a few issues here like the style of sex changing and so on. I think you'll have to hope that the sex spices up as a result of the removal of this issue, instead of trying to address that now too. If you indicate disatisfaction with sex while you're trying to address her insecurity issues, it'll undermine your efforts. (Probably obvious, but often we don't see obvious things from inside the situation...)

Good luck. 

Athena


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

monkeyboy said:


> I can't say I disagree with any of your insights, Ten Year Hubby. I do feel somewhat entitled to intimacy in my relationship though, and I sort of feel like I_ should_ feel that way. Aren't we mutually entitled to care for one another's needs? I don't know if "entitled" is the right word there or not.:scratchhead:\


You're not "somewhat", "sort of" entitled to sex. If that's your attitude, that signifies your approach to your wife in regards to sex.

You ARE entitled to sex with your wife. Period. The same goes for her.

I see this all the time on TAM. This wishy washy, weak commitment to saying boldly, and clearly, that satisfying sex with your spouse is an entitlement, an inherent part of the marriage vows, and something to be expected.

If you believe this then OWN IT. And let your wife know that you will not, for any reason, forsake your RIGHT to sex in your marriage. If she can't find a way to provide you sexual gratification, than she can start on a journey toward finding another man whose equally as sexless as she is.

Stop apologizing for being a man. Stop apologizing for being a sexual being. Stop allowing your wife's issues to stretch on into infinity. Trust me, a person can wallow for DECADES in a struggle, and be totally justified doing so because it's how they "feel". At some point you have got to say "I love you, I support you, but enough is enough".


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

jaquen said:


> You're not "somewhat", "sort of" entitled to sex. If that's your attitude, that signifies your approach to your wife in regards to sex.
> 
> You ARE entitled to sex with your wife. Period. The same goes for her.
> 
> ...


I can't say that I 100% agree on this point, though I think I am with the underlying message. 

In my opinion, no one has a right to sex with another person, even if they are married. That's something that each partner grants to the other partner, every single time. 

That said... everything else still stands. I still think you should be unapologetic, and I still think you should aggressively take charge of the situation. 

Athena


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Athena1 said:


> In my opinion, no one has a right to sex with another person, even if they are married. That's something that each partner grants to the other partner, every single time.


Sex, in our marriage, is a right. We are entitled to sex with one another. Just as we are entitled to sexual solidarity, love, honesty, caring, loyalty, and all the other basic tenants of marriage. 

It does not mean that we can take our partner's body whenever we like; indeed we both exercise the right to turn down sex whenever we want to. It simply means that there is an overall expectation that, on the whole, we will both commit to having regular, satisfying sex with one another. That is an inherent part of the marriage vows. You do not agree to forsake each other with the hope that your spouse might offer you a sexual relationship. No, you forsake all others with the expectation that you will have a sexual relationship with your spouse.

Neither I, nor my wife, look at sex in our marriage as a hope. It is an entitlement for us.

People really seem to start getting uncomfortable when you talk about marital sex as being a right. But if we took the "it's not really an entitlement" attitude about sex and applied it elsewhere, would it still be wrong? For instance, perhaps my wife isn't really entitled to monogamy? Perhaps it's something I should take on a case by case basis, and my wife should fully accept that monogamy isn't a right, but rather a privilege that she could lose?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Sex is an entitlement in marriage. It is a requirement of marriage. In many ways it's the purpose of marriage (sex leading to offspring).

It is also the one thing that makes a marriage different for any other relationship.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

I see what you're saying, and it's a point well taken. Within the marriage contract is the sexual relationship. 

It does make me uncomfortable to hear it spoken about as a right, because it brings to mind marital rape, which is still rape. (I'm not at all saying that's what you were suggesting! I know you do not support that.)

I think we might be hijacking this thread a bit with this discussion, so maybe we should start a new one, (or maybe one exists?) that defines the line between where our right to our own bodies and our marital right to sex is. 

I would say that access to sex is something that is a contractual obligation, but not a right? (Least romantic phrasing ever, I know.) I think there's a crucial distinction there, especially in this thread where rape is a sensitive issue. 

But... I think the bottom line is still the same regardless of semantics, which is that your original point was good advice.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Athena1 said:


> I think we might be hijacking this thread a bit with this discussion, so maybe we should start a new one, (or maybe one exists?) that defines the line between where our right to our own bodies and our marital right to sex is.


There you go 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...oveling-working-overtime-sex-your-spouse.html


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

monkeyboy said:


> I do feel somewhat entitled to intimacy in my relationship though


monkeyboy,

The question I see here is whether or not we can rightfully set our own arbitrary limit on how much we are willing to give and how much we are willing to do and match that limit to another arbitrary concept of how much we should be getting and how we should be getting it the way we want it.

For whatever reason, some of us may have a lot more on our plates than others or more than we would like or more than we think we deserve. The concept that one can say, "I've given all I can and now it's up to you to give me what I want" is just not going to wash. Lots of us, through no fault of our own, have female partners with self esteem issues. If we want our partners to function sexually on the level we consider healthy, it's up to us to do everything we can and bring every power to bear to the end of raising their self esteem. This is a tall order. Not for the weak at heart or the weak at all for that matter. If you don't like what your wife is giving you (and I can't blame you) and you want something more, then you're going to have to do what it takes to encourage her and help her raise her level of self esteem to the point where she can give more.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

If a wife does not want sex, I am not suggesting the husband has a right to rape her.

What I am suggesting she is deciding she wants something other than a marriage.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Hicks said:


> If a wife does not want sex, I am not suggesting the husband has a right to rape her.
> 
> What I am suggesting she is deciding she wants something other than a marriage.


I'm sorry if it sounded like I was accusing that, that's a serious accusation that I'm not levelling at anyone! 

Your point that if she doesn't want sex, she is deciding she wants something other than a marriage is perfect. I was trying to make that same distinction, with more words and less clarity.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Athena1, 
Look at a guy like Monkeyboy. He is really not sure if he is right to expect a sexual marriage. Why would this be? Men are taught to respect women. Men are taught to suck it up, not confront or scare or hurt women. Many times, men are made to feel like they are perverts and rapists for expecting sex in a marital relationship. I wanted to advocate for men and remind them that they have a right to expect a sexual marriage and their feelings are in no way improper or associated in any way with rape.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

You are right, Hicks. In fact, it's funny you wrote that. I told our marriage counselor at one point during the sessions that I felt like my wife feels I'm some sort of pervert for wanting sex with her, checking out her body when she comes out of the shower, etc. Totally backwards thinking on her part, which is a big part of my frustration. She doesn't feel like she's sexy, so I'm the weirdo because I think she is!?!? That's messed up!

So many of these comments are great and really what I need to hear. I am going to take a stand with her in the very near future about this problem of her self-esteem, our sex life, etc. I'm going to be blunt about it, but not a total jerk either. I need to stop caring if it leads to her become angry, resentful, etc., and just deal with that when it comes. I think that i become overly concerned at times about how she thinks/feels about me much of the time, and then I become the wimp as a result of that and I'm sure that's not a turn-on for her.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Sex, in our marriage, is a right. We are entitled to sex with one another. Just as we are entitled to sexual solidarity, love, honesty, caring, loyalty, and all the other basic tenants of marriage.


:iagree:

Actually it's called " Conjugal Rights " in legal terms.

A whole lot of men are deceived into thinking that sex in marriage is a privilege their wife grants them whenever she feels like it.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

I see what you guys are saying, and it has given me a lot to think about. 

I still think it's important to note her (or his) right to say no on a case by case basis. 

But, I do see what you mean that a withdrawal of sex to the extent that it isn't happening, or is rare, goes against the marriage contract and is denying a right to the other partner. I hadn't thought about it this way before. 

And also, I agree in our desire to protect women, we have overshot slightly so that men are often made to feel that their natural and reasonable desires are somehow "wrong". Again, it's not something I had put much thought into before this. 

I am a strong believer that our (society's) recent move towards protecting the rights of women is necessary and good in general. But now I do also see that this is can be (and is being in many cases) over-applied, so that it actually inhibits the rights of men. 

I appreciate the conversation, gentlemen.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

We had a talk tonight, and I'm curious to see where it goes.

It started because we had romantic plans for after the kids were in bed. She made a comment about her figure, at which point I said that it's a total turnoff that she says something about her body _everytime_ we are being intimate and I'm tired of it...very tired of it! I can't keep saying the same thing over and over, even though I'm being honest when I tell her she's beautiful, because I feel like a complete idiot when it's obvious that she either doesn't believe me or doesn't care, or both. That led to some discussion over her discomfort in the bedroom, but I'm not sure it was very productive.

So, after some awkward conversation, which wasn't terribly confrontational or anything, the intimacy began. Then she began giggling because my beard was tickling her face while we were kissing she said. I ignored it, though this happens nearly every time we kiss these days. She's been doing it for a couple of years. Also a major turnoff. I don't mind fun in the bedroom, but when she gets silly each time we are intimate it gets annoying. Then as I began rubbing and caressing her, she started giggling again. That's when I said this: "You know what? Let's just forget this tonight. You're clearly not into it and I'm not either anymore."

She said she can't help it that she's more ticklish these days, and I pointed out that this NEVER used to be the case, and it makes me feel like she's just not into sex or me anymore. This led to another discussion about her non-existent libido, and how she feels particularly weird when I want to be "kinky." Let me explain: "Kinky" to her means foreplay, positions other than missionary, having sex with the lights on, playing games, etc. You get the point. She also pointed out that she didn't want to have anal sex. I told her I'd never even so much as brought that topic up, but she said lots of guys like it. I told her I don't care about it. Then she said she feels like we're in a porno or something when we do that other stuff, to which I replied we're not watching porn together but being with each other, so I don't get that. She said maybe I'm thinking about it. I told her that's ridiculous. When I'm having sex with her, I'm think of her. Period. I'm not daydreaming of some porno I saw when I was in college or something. So weird!

We talked about how it's possible that her guilt over a promiscous youth is keeping her from enjoying sexual pleasure with me now, and maybe it's not just a low libido, but also a low desire to look into changing that. She tried to tell me that it's difficult because she feels like she's just doing all this for me. I told her that not all the things (helping with cooking & cleaning, paying bills, etc.) I do in our marriage/family life are my favorite things, but I do them out of love and respect and because I know they are important to her and us. That's part of the deal. That's marriage. She tried to say that's different, but I told her it's absolutely not and that's B.S. Then she said we needed more "date nights" (we do about one per month), and she'd feel more affectionate. I told her that is also B.S., because we've done those and she's still not wanting to be sexually adventerous in any way, and there are many times that we go out and it's too late and she's then too tired to have sex. She said more in-home date nights would be good too, but she just can't think of that many ideas for just the two of us at home. True. Her ideas aren't good because they're not fun or creative. She thinks all my ideas center around sex, and frankly, sometimes they do because many people would find them fun. Ideas like strip poker, truth or dare, naked twister and stuff like that. I don't see these as "kinky." Sorry. I think it's 2 married, consenting and committed adults having fun. Big deal. It's better than sitting on the couch and watching a movie. By the way, I'm okay with non-sexual games too, and we've done those too. That's cool. I do like spending time with her and doesn't always have to be about sex - just to be clear. 

She did say that she finds me attractive, but it wouldn't matter who she was with. She's just not into sex and doesn't know what to do about it, though sometimes she gets into it once we've been at it for a while. She said usually she feels awkward at the start because she's trying to get into it and feels like she's putting on a show. Ergh!

I'm not sure where all this conversation will lead to. I'll try and keep you all posted. I'm not very convinced though that she'll take much action.

I'm pretty much as helpless as ever; however, I feel like there's been some good ideas on here about escaping from this "nice guy" attitude I've had in the past. This needs to start being her problem and not mine. I'm done worrying about if she's happy all the time in hopes of it leading to a better relationship between us. It never works. Of course, it could all bite me in the butt too, but I'm determined to change the way I've been doing things.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

Also, just read another thread where a woman commented that she so wished her husband had told her of his struggles with their sex life before running out and having an affair. That depressed me. I've been absolutely honest with my wife about this struggle, and how it makes me feel she is not interested in me any longer, and she's done very little to tackle the issue. She's done some counseling, but it's gone nowhere. I've asked her to speak with her OBGYN about her testerone levels (or other things), but she doesn't want to. She's embarrassed about the issue, so I don't even think she'll talk with a girlfriend about what's going on, which sucks because I think a friend would say something like, "Girl, you gotta get this figured out and take care of your husband or you're going to lose your marriage!"

She tells me she knows that good sex is part of a good marriage. OK, good. So where does that leave us? Please, at least lead me to believe you're trying to be proactive and fight for us!


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

Just thinking more about this. Am I just being petty & selfish about feeling sexually unfulfilled? I don't really want to lose my wife & family, but I feel sexually repressed, which is now leading to feelings of animosity in my marriage. That is not good. She does agree to sex about once per week, but it's very vanilla & not very mutual. Honestly, I look forward to sex, but not much more than that. It's nice to "get off," but I can do that on my own. I don't get excited about an evening of romance & intimacy with her. 

I'd really appreciate thoughts regarding my state of mind here. Am I off base? Should I just appreciate what I have (family, home, friendship, great kids, etc.) & leave well enough alone?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

monkeyboy, I don't think you are off base at all. You are doubting yourself which is a very bad sign. You have not described anything at all out of the middle of the range for normal sexuality in terms of your interests or desires. Yet she has convinced you that somehow you might be deviant or obsessed with sex. This is a sign you have suffered some emotional trauma.

I'm not saying she is setting out to emotionally abuse you, but her behavior becomes abusive at this point. So I think you need some distance from her and you might benefit from a little bit of counseling. I can tell you that I think you are emotionally traumatized, and all of us here can offer suggestions, but really there is nothing like getting specific in person perspective from a professional.

Your wife? I think she is desperately avoiding dealing with internal fears. She may have some very dysfunctional beliefs around sex, or around marriage. Whatever it is, she is dysfunctional. She does not seem to have a clear desire to understand your side of the situation, nor does she seem to have a clear desire to find some kind of solution. Not that she has to declare you are 100% right and she is 100% wrong, she just needs to declare that something in the marriage is very wrong and so a strong effort needs to be made to really understand it and to find some kind of solution so that both of you can be happy.

See? She is avoiding it all.

I think there is a high likelihood of sex abuse or assault in her past. The pattern fits, though is not definitely diagnostic across the internet. Whatever the cause, she has a significant barrier she needs to tackle.


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## heavensangel (Feb 12, 2012)

The counseling you've done in the past; was it MC? Did it include sexual therapy? If not, maybe both of you going to see a sexual therapist would help? Is it something she'd be opened to doing?


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

Thor, you may have missed the earlier section if this post. Yes, my wife has rape in her history from about 20 years ago. Thank you for those other words & insights. They are great!

We did MC for about 6 months ago, which we finished up just about 6 months ago. There was focus on sex, intimacy & physically reconnecting, but it was not sex therapy per se. We actually concluded the MC a bit early because my wife was working through a bunch of other issues with her individual therapist, and that was pretty in-depth. Her individual issues were really more powerful than our marriage stuff. However, once her sessions concluded, I feel my wife felt the work was done & that was it. There was some progress made, but now she's regressed. 

She commented last night that she doesn't want (or feel like she needs) to go back to counseling. She likes to remind me that I knew she had body image issues when we married. That is true, but I was also deceived into believing she had a heavy sexual appetite, which turned it to be just 7 years of bull___t. She's admitted to that deception even.

It also pisses me off that she sees all this as a minor issue. I mentioned in our church small group this morning that we'd appreciate prayers for our marriage, but I didn't go into detail. My wife said, "Well, we're not doing too bad." Jeez! No, I guess things are fine as long as HER needs are met.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

monkeyboy said:


> No, I guess things are fine as long as HER needs are met.


So suspend meeting her needs. Your wife is selfish. Period. She'll never see how serious you are as long as her needs are being fulfilled. You have to show her that you mean mention. You two, for now at least, are beyond words. Only action will speak to her.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

jaquen said:


> So suspend meeting her needs. Your wife is selfish. Period. She'll never see how serious you are as long as her needs are being fulfilled. You have to show her that you mean mention. You two, for now at least, are beyond words. Only action will speak to her.


I see what you're saying, but I feel that I'm in a lose/lose situation. If I suspend meeting her needs, then a few months from now when everything blows up about our marriage going south, she'll claim she doesn't meet _my_ needs because I don't meet _hers_. She already pulls that crap saying that we don't have enough date nights, enough money, enough romance between us, etc. The truth is, nothing could be further from the truth, except the money thing. We don't have a lot, but I try hard to get us out at least once per month for a date night, and we do that, and I bend over backwards to provide romance in the home, but it's usually met with some sort of criticism because she thinks I'm just trying to get in her pants. Lose/lose with that too! So if I withhold meeting her needs for a period of time, I'll have to remind her that her not meeting my needs came first, and then it will sound as though I was exacting revenge or something. It'll be a mess. I think I struggle with that too because it does seem manipulative in that way, and that goes against so much of what I believe in life. Then again, I get what you're saying too because clearly she doesn't respond to me verbally indicated the problems.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

You are in a pickle where nothing you do is ever going to be enough or ok. As I said above, she is avoiding facing her fears in therapy, and she may not realize what is going on. She just puts it all on you.

Her rape may well be a major player here. Problems can come to the surface years later. Her psychology may be distorted enough that she really has no idea how dysfunction she is or the marriage is. I do believe she needs good qualified therapy regardless of what the root causes are.

One tactic you can try is the sex moratorium. This is a good solid method to reset both of your views on sex and on your relationship. It is something you do with upfront discussion. It can't be done without her knowing, but you can do it without her enthusiastic approval.

For 30 to 90 days you agree to no sex. Hugging and kissing ok, but nothing with genitals. Do your very best to avoid masturbation too. What happens is she learns that you do things not just to "get" sex from her. You learn all the manipulative things you are doing to get sex from her! Your touches will reset to being expressions of affection, not trying to warm her up for sex later on. You will do chores because they need doing, not to be in her good graces in case she might give it up later. You probably do a lot of things trying to improve her mood, always with the undercurrent that it may earn you some sex at some point in the future. 

The moratorium will be very good for you. But it will also be eye opening for her. With luck it will be good for your relationship.

Or, you may find that she has been using the hope of sex as a tool to manipulate you. She may become frustrated that she doesn't have that magic ***** power over you any more. You might break free.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

Last year when we were doing MC we did the moratorium thing. It is called "Sensate Focus." I loved the idea, though it was difficult. I was very hopeful about what it would do for us, based on how our therapist described it and what I read. It began with the first 2-4 weeks, approximately, as only touch over clothing and no genitals. Basically just non-sexual massage & touch. No talking even. Just enjoying the touch of your partner's body and them enjoying you touching them. It then increased from there to more exploration, but altogether we went about 90+ days without sex. You can google sensate focus if you're not aware of it. 

I was frustrated with the result of it, because as you pointed out, I think there's more going on with her than SF is set up to address. By the time we got around to naked touching which included genitals, she started making comments that it "feels weird," or "uncomfortable," or would even say that she just liked the basic massage but not the sexual stuff now that we are at that point. It was really difficult also because it sort of jumpstarted my sexuality and feelings of intimacy and desire toward her, but it did nothing for her so I was left high & dry again. By the time we started having sex again it was just the same old issues. 

One thing I wish we'd done differently is to have a female therapist instead of a male. My wife commented a few times that he was just wanting us to do sex stuff all the time, and I gathered that she felt this way because it was a guy. I really wish it had been a woman trying to get her to _wake up and smell the coffee_. Of course, she did have a female therapist too and I'm not sure that was much different. Of course, I think my wife spent a lot of that time talking about her childhood, her parents (they're a mess), her lack of self-esteem, etc. When her therapist would give her sex homework, I'm pretty sure my wife blew it off most of the time.

One thing I have been thinking about more and more, and began last night with our conversation, is that I need to take a more "alpha" like approach with her and just start telling her what she needs to do to repair this important part of our relationship. I'm almost to the point of telling her that if she's not going to take my needs seriously and address her issues then it's going to be time for us to separate. That breaks my heart, but I'm just not sure what else to do. I felt like last night I laid it out pretty well for her, to the point of saying I wasn't sure we should even bother with sex last night because I was tired of this whole thing playing out the way it did (the giggling, avoidance, complaints of her body, etc.). Well, we talked for a while and it felt like the message had come across. In fact, it kind of felt like make-up sex afterward. Then she made that comment to our church group today that we are "not doing too bad." Really!?:scratchhead: Good grief, lady! Wake up!!! Did the problem just up and leave???

Anyway, I'm appreciating your insights, Thor. I'm sorry if you feel like I'm shooting down your suggestions. As you can see, I've made several attempts to improve this situation over the past year without much success. It truly is _her_ problem and not even a WE problem at this point. I've even asked her, in many ways, "What is it that I can do to improve the way things are with our intimacy and romance?" She has no answer for that, and when she's really pushed, then the answers she gives make no sense (I think I mentioned those earlier, like that we don't go out enough and crap like that).

Maybe if I draw a line in the sand with her it will be the wake up call she needs. That, or she'll get so pissed off at that and just shuts down altogether, but if that's her reaction then I'm not sure she's willing to battle for us much anyway.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Thor said:


> One tactic you can try is the sex moratorium....
> 
> For 30 to 90 days you agree to no sex. Hugging and kissing ok, but nothing with genitals. Do your very best to avoid masturbation too. What happens is she learns that you do things not just to "get" sex from her. You learn all the manipulative things you are doing to get sex from her! Your touches will reset to being expressions of affection, not trying to warm her up for sex later on. You will do chores because they need doing, not to be in her good graces in case she might give it up later. You probably do a lot of things trying to improve her mood, always with the undercurrent that it may earn you some sex at some point in the future.



Considering the details Monkey has given this sounds like the pitch perfect way to guide them straight into a completely sexless marriage. After the 30-90 days she'll likely be extremely disappointed that sex is reintroduced at all. I bet she'll feel like the moratorium season is basically her idea of a perfect marriage, and it will reaffirm to her that sex really isn't that big of a deal.

This might work for some, but based off the details given I think this could be an potentially disastrous action for them.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I can see you have not only made a lot of efforts, you are going well above the call of duty. You are doing far more than half the heavy lifting.

The moratorium is different than Sensate Focus. Your therapist is a pro and I am sure had good reasons for the SF. The moratorium is a specifically non-sexual period of time, whereas SF is a therapy to improve sex and to get to a healthier psychology about sex. In a moratorium there is no sexual touch at all. A hug or a kiss is simply a message of affection. It is not lite sex. The purpose of the moratorium is to take sex totally out of the equation for a set period of time. The only interactions you have with your wife are devoid of any sexuality at all.

In the book No More Mr. Nice Guy, the author states that improving oneself will either improve the marriage or send it to a long overdue grave. Though I hope your marriage will become healthy, I think every attempt you have made has been met with sabotage by your wife.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I have to agree with Thor here. I'm seeing a lot of red flags for child sexual abuse. The promiscuity and then shutting down, the lack of pleasure in sex, feeling awkward and uncomfortable. Even the low self esteem and hyper focus on appearance. 

And then she was gang raped? That must be one of the most traumatic things that could happen to any woman. Did she get any counselling straight afterwards? Were the men charged? You kind of gloss over this in your first post and I think it really needs more attention. I don't think anyone could avoid being deeply deeply sexually damaged by that experience.

Do you have daughters? If you do, and they are approaching the age your wife was when/if she was abused that could be throwing up all kinds of trauma.

So what do you do? It's not going to be an easy fix. According to your wife she has never enjoyed sex, this contradicts your earlier assertion that she enjoyed it before children, btw. You're right to think that this is her problem to solve, and if she can't/won't, then you're within your rights to take sexual fidelity off the table as an expectation of you from her. 

If she has truly never liked or been interested in sex, she had no business getting married. No matter the reason, she should not have entered into an exclusive sexual relationship and then revealed her lack of interest.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Lyris said:


> If she has truly never liked or been interested in sex, she had no business getting married. No matter the reason, she should not have entered into an exclusive sexual relationship and then revealed her lack of interest.


Where are the marriage police when you need them?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Considering the details Monkey has given this sounds like the pitch perfect way to guide them straight into a completely sexless marriage. After the 30-90 days she'll likely be extremely disappointed that sex is reintroduced at all. I bet she'll feel like the moratorium season is basically her idea of a perfect marriage, and it will reaffirm to her that sex really isn't that big of a deal.
> 
> This might work for some, but based off the details given I think this could be an potentially disastrous action for them.


Yes it could turn out that she loves it when there is no sex. She might be anxious or disappointed when the moratorium is coming to an end. This is one of the possible outcomes of the moratorium, and if it happens it is a very important data point. The husband then knows that without doubt either the sex will remain deeply problematic or there must be serious therapy to fix the problem.

Another reaction could be that she gets very anxious because she loses her power over him. She may panic that he will go elsewhere for sex, or that he will no longer see any value in her.

A normal response to the moratorium is both partners wanting sex during it, and therefore looking forward to the end of the moratorium. During the moratorium the husband is shocked to see how much he was doing to manipulate or set the mood for his wife to provide sex. He learns how indirect he has been. He recalibrates his actions so that there is no covert expectations that she provide sex in return for him doing the dishes. The wife learns that the shoulder rub or the hug can be simply a communication of his affection, not some kind of test to see if she is receptive to sex later on.

The moratorium should open up direct communications about sex, and both partners should learn better basic relationship dynamics. Sex tends to cloud things and complicate things, so it is taken out of the mix temporarily.


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## TheCrunch (Sep 3, 2012)

monkeyboy said:


> ...I felt like last night I laid it out pretty well for her, to the point of saying I wasn't sure we should even bother with sex last night because I was tired of this whole thing playing out the way it did (the giggling, avoidance, complaints of her body, etc.). Well, we talked for a while and it felt like the message had come across. In fact, it kind of felt like make-up sex afterward. Then she made that comment to our church group today that we are *"not doing too bad." * Really!?:scratchhead: Good grief, lady! Wake up!!! Did the problem just up and leave???
> 
> ... It truly is _her_ problem ...


Just to say a couple of things occur to me re the above. It is possible that what she said to the church group was referring to the make up sex. Could it mean that she felt this was a turning point for her and was feeling optimistic about the future. Time will tell I guess. 

Re the last line in the quote above, sometime I have a problem which impacts my relationship but just because it's my problem doesn't necessarily mean I know how to solve it. I may even feel I ought to know how to make things better but sometimes I just don't. I might even suggest stuff that I doubt will make for any improvement just because I feel pressure that I "should" know how to solve the problem because it is MY problem. But it doesn't necessarily work like this.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

So, I'll try and answer a few of the questions that were put forth:

She's never admitted to child sexual abuse, though I've come right out and asked her because I agree - it seems to appear that way at times. I'm wondering if someday she'll come forth and tell me. 

The gang rape was in college with some frat guys. Everybody was drunk and they started in on her taking turns. Ugh! Turns my stomach to think about it and describe it. Makes me really angry, too. No, she never followed-up with a police report or went that route. She felt guilty of the situation she put herself in and I think really scared too. 

She never did counseling, and in fact never even told a soul until we were in counseling last year. Our MC and me were the first to ever know of this secret.

Our girls are 3 & 5. It's ironic that she often worries about them growing up to have the self-esteem and body image issues she has, but she continues to not address her own and let them dictate so many parts of her life. Now, I know, I'm not a woman and can't understand the body image stuff like a woman does, but it seems that if it's depressing you and making your life hell, then you try to address it in whatever way possible. She just sort of stays stuck where she is with the whole thing.

I really think that she would enjoy the moratorium way too much. She was that way when we did sensate focus. Like I described, she loved the massage part with our clothes on, and as soon as we even got down to our underwear after a month she wasn't interested anymore. I felt like I was the one always initiating again, and at times getting shot down. That totally sucked because here we had this homework from our therapist for SF time, and I had to pursue it and remind her why it was important. She knew during this period that all of my actions of love were pure & true, because there was no sex going on, yet nothing really changed. Now we're back to where we were a year ago. Well, honestly, maybe a little better. She doesn't avoid sex as much, and will offer it up, but mostly it's very basic & vanilla and I know if she had her way she wouldn't even bother. 

I'm finding myself fearful of bringing the whole thing up again, because I know she'll be defensive and say, "Look, I'm giving you sex once per week, and it's your problem if it's not up to your standards. Do you really want to make a huge problem in our marriage & family just because it's not as exciting as you'd like it?" It sucks, but she sometimes makes me feel like I'm just a horny pig with a problem.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

You have the right to be a horny pig with a problem. Seriously. And she has the right to be averse to sex. But it isn't going to make for a happy marriage.

For the record I think you are a normal man not a horny pig with a problem. She sounds dysfunctional.

I asked my wife 3 times directly about sex abuse and rape. She said no each time completely believably. That was over the time period 30 years ago up to about 25 years ago. Then last year she revealed her CSA. It was serious abuse not something marginal she might have thought didn't fall under my questions. So your wife may yet someday reveal CSA.

It is not uncommon for abused girls to find themselves in further abusive relationships as women. I hear a lot of rape and violence stories. The psychological dysfunctions caused by the abuse can lead women to stay in dangerous situations which other women would avoid or leave immediately. So the gang rape would be consistent with CSA, not contradictory. And not any kind of proof either of CSA. Just that I would not be surprised to hear that her story is a lot deeper, sadder, and more disturbing than she has said so far.

The rape is something she needs to deal with. It sounds like it is still a problem to her.

Also, your girls are at the age when abuse can happen. Sick, demented, and to me unfathomable. If your wife was abused it could have been even at the age of your girls, and so she could be triggering. My wife was triggered badly after our first daughter was born. She had nightmares and flashbacks. She raged at me. She was irrationally controlling of the daughter's environment. There was not a thing, literally, that I could do acceptably according to her. Not even put formula in a bottle. Yet when I asked what was going on she denied and then turned it on me. She refused any marriage counseling. My wife fully intended to take the info to her grave.

You get the picture. Don't expect your wife to reveal anything even if there is something there. Just be aware that it may be there because normal relationship tactics won't work.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Here is a really good book about giving your daughters a positive body image Her Mother's Thighs, Dara Chadwick - Shop Online for Books in Australia - Fishpond.com.au.

It might help your wife see she has to heal herself for the good of her children.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

Wow, Thor! That makes me very suspicious & nervous. What a story! Yes, my wife has a short fuse/anger as well. 

Thanks for that resource, Lyris. Looks really interesting.

I wanted to answer another question that someone posed: According to my wife, she has NEVER enjoyed sex. She liked the closeness it created in our relationship in the early years, but she didn't get much from it beyond that. She had said she pretended to enjoy it for my sake, & once when she admitted that to me (after I prodded about it because there was an obvious avoidance to sex over the last few years), she also said she was unsure if she would ever like it & wondered if I'd leave her. She apologized for the betrayal, which I forgave, but I continue to be struggling with her apathy on the issue. If she knows it's important to me & us, why the avoidance?


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

monkeyboy said:


> I continue to be struggling with her apathy on the issue. If she knows it's important to me & us, why the avoidance?


Obviously, no one can answer this but your wife. Avoidance is almost always related to pain or the fear of pain. Sometimes the fear of pain is much greater than the pain itself. The pain of guilt or future feelings of guilt is often a big player in avoidance behaviors.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

monkeyboy said:


> According to my wife, she has NEVER enjoyed sex. She liked the closeness it created in our relationship in the early years, but she didn't get much from it beyond that. *She had said she pretended to enjoy it for my sake*, & once when she admitted that to me (after I prodded about it because there was an obvious avoidance to sex over the last few years), she also said she was unsure if she would ever like it & wondered if I'd leave her. She apologized for the betrayal, which I forgave, but I continue to be struggling with her apathy on the issue. If she knows it's important to me & us, why the avoidance?


I have become very jaded on the topic of motivation. I don't believe she really was thinking of you when she was pretending. Just like the cheater wasn't trying to protect the betrayed by hiding the affair. Your wife was imho pretending to like sex in order to get something from you. I am doubtful she enjoyed closeness, rather she liked the results from you feeling closeness.

Yes this may be my own goggles distorting the view.

But why would she engage in an activity which takes time and is such a _personal_ thing as sex unless she was getting something out of it?

Abuse and assault victims can have a very illogical view of sex. They view themselves as dirty and unworthy of a quality partner. There is shame and self blame going on. Yet they know they can get approval via sex. Her deepest fear is that _it is true_, she deserves the shame. So the strongest manifestation is a fear of rejection/abandonment. Sex is a hook to get approval in the beginning, and then a tool to keep you from abandoning her later on.

Yet she feels dirty with sex. She may have anxieties or flashbacks during sex. She may be triggered by things you don't realize. My wife is triggered by kissing. It is related to a coercion used by her abuser. She has no problems with lots of other stuff using her mouth, but no kissing. You might notice your wife having an odd reaction to something you say, an act you suggest, or some action you take. She might turn her head away from you. She might zone out. She might refuse something which doesn't make sense. My wife had an odd reaction to the suggestion of using the kitchen counter a few weeks ago. I don't know but I suspect it was her trauma bubbling up.

The trajectory of her dysfunctions is dynamic. She may have been promiscuous as a teen or early 20's. She may have been pretty wild with you when dating. That can be a manifestation of acting out due to the trauma. Then years later it can manifest as rages towards you. Or she becomes increasingly less able to tolerate sex or emotional intimacy. So it seems contradictory to you because you know her historically as the sexual woman but now you see all kinds of problems with sexuality and emotional intimacy.

Typically it is painful to deal with the trauma. And like many issues the thought of dealing with it causes as much or more anxiety than actually dealing with it. So she is balancing her fears. Does she fear facing the rape trauma more or less than she fears the consequences of not facing the trauma?

As I have gone down this road my counselor has advised me to avoid telling her "she needs therapy". Don't try to diagnose her or be her therapist. Instead I should set boundaries and communicate needs. Act within the relationship the way I want it to be, and see if she is capable and willing to have that kind of relationship. She has to decide on her own how to meet those requirements, including if she needs therapy. Or she can decide not to meet those relationship requirements, and then I have my answer.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

One more thing. Dysfunctional people tend to couple with other similarly dysfunctional people. So you may be dysfunctional to some extent around sex. Why did your wife select you? Why did you select her?

Which means as part of your process of figuring out your marriage you need to really look inside yourself and deal with your own issues. And you need to look at your basic assumptions about how a relationship works.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Thor said:


> As I have gone down this road my counselor has advised me to avoid telling her "she needs therapy". Don't try to diagnose her or be her therapist. Instead I should set boundaries and communicate needs. Act within the relationship the way I want it to be, and see if she is capable and willing to have that kind of relationship. She has to decide on her own how to meet those requirements, including if she needs therapy. Or she can decide not to meet those relationship requirements, and then I have my answer.


I think this is excellent advice. Telling someone they need therapy is not likely to be received in a positive fashion. If we are able to set healthy, appropriate and mutually acceptable boundaries, therapy could eventually appear as a consequence in the case that the mutually acceptable boundary is not respected.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Thor;1207771
Dysfunctional people tend to couple with other similarly dysfunctional people. So you may be dysfunctional to some extent around sex. Why did your wife select you? Why did you select her?
[/QUOTE said:


> In my case, I selected my wife because she was really good looking. She still is. I had never experienced relationship dysfunction before, didn't know what it was, didn't know it existed.


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## caymangirl (Nov 13, 2012)

You are a rare one of a kind husband. I hope wives out there with husbands like you all, realize what they have. My husband just told me that I don't care about his feelings enough to care what he thinks about me and that I should as his wife always try to look good for him. He said he doesnt want to stop being attracted to me and it will make him not love me. Three days later I am still devastated. I am a stay at home mom with our infant son. He works offshore and is gone 2 mths at a time, basically 2/1 rotation. 
What I dont get is that he is no prize himself. He has no patience when he's home. I walk on eggshells just counting the days till he goes back to work. He destroys everything in the house with his irrational rages. What's going on with him? I feel like I am going crazy.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

Sadly, I don't think she has the first clue how good she has it. Some of that is my doing though. I have spoiled her out of my own fears of losing her. Treading far too lightly because I was afraid of things getting worse. That will be changing. She emailed me today & wants to talk tonight about things because she feels lately that I'm frustrated with her. I plan to explain to her that I'm growing weary of the work, effort & the heartache. She is losing me. It's time for her to take stock & decide what's important & what she wants. I'm not going to idly sit by & find myself trapped in a 20-year-old sexless, unsatisfied, loveless marriage. I don't want that for me or our kids. 

She doesn't have to rise up & become a sexual being overnight, but she does need to deal with her issues, make our relationship a priority, and WORK!


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

Also, I'm sorry for the previous posters situation. That sounds horrible & i'll pray things improve for you. I wish I had some advice, but I'm not feeling confident enough right now to give it.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

caymangirl said:


> He has no patience when he's home. I walk on eggshells just counting the days till he goes back to work. He destroys everything in the house with his irrational rages. What's going on with him? I feel like I am going crazy.


Becoming a new father can be very stressful but there is no excuse for not having self control. Raging, destroying, causing distress and fearfulness, this is not mature behavior, it's not good for the family and it's not rightful. Unfiltered anger can be very destructive. Please suggest nicely that you don't like being yelled at and let us know what he says.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

Thor said:


> Sex is a hook to get approval in the beginning, and then a tool to keep you from abandoning her later on.


Something important resonates here, as I've often had thoughts that she married me so she could have babies. Once our 2nd (& final) was born is when the sex slowed big time. While I know there is love between us still, this idea is frequent at times like this. I haven't had the heart to share this thought though. Even if there's truth in it, it would have been subconscious (i pray). I don't know if i'll mention it tonight...


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

The talk last night was decent. At the very least, it was not angry or accusatory in nature, which I think is a good thing if progress is to be made. 

She started off by saying that she felt I was frustrated by our sex lives again, that she could tell, and she was feeling pressure again on that issue. She said she doesn't know what to do because she doesn't feel that sex drive the way I do, so she's just doing her best.

I explained my frustration to her, and that part of it has to do with her not taking the time to empathize with me and the other part is that she takes no action on her own to try and become more sexually driven for the sake of our marriage. Those things would be her doing her "best." Not just begrudgingly going to the bedroom with me for a "quickie" so I can have my "release." Ugh - that so angers me that she thinks I just need a sexual "release!" I explained if that's all it was we wouldn't have a problem - I'd just go somewhere and masturbate to my heart's content. That does very little for me, and nothing for us as a couple. 

I explained it this way, which I think helped: When we are close and intimate, and not just the plain old 15-minute sex now let's go watch TV or sleep, but a real exciting "love fest," then I feel desired, respected, WANTED, loved, appreciated, etc. When that never happens between us, I feel disconnected and resentful, and it comes across to her that I don't love her and that I'm annoyed and angry. She said she thought that was weird to her, that I needed sex to feel those ways, and that she can show me that in other ways. I told her she can't - at least not completely. This led to my next point about her not empathizing. I asked her how it would feel if all of a sudden I said, "Y'know, I don't really like child-raising stuff anymore. I'll play ball with them, go the park, and stuff like that, but I have no passion inside me anymore to give them baths, do dinner, clean up after them, homework, discipline, etc. I can try to help you out, but don't ask me to enjoy that part of our life anymore because it just does nothing for me." Of course, I told her this is absolutely NOT how I feel, but how would she feel if that happened? She said, "Pissed." Good, I told her. Now you're starting to understand.

She _did_ tell me that she is going to see her OBGYN and see if there's anything she can do biologically to increase her drive. She said that since she's started having orgasms with me, about 6 months ago, that she was hopeful that her drive would increase too, but it hasn't so she's frustrated a bit by that too. 

We also talked about needing to make our marriage a priority again, and not let it be overshadowed by kids, work, friends, etc. 

Another helpful thing happened too that she brought up. when I was away at a conference last week, we were texting back and forth, and one of my texts ended with, "I'm glad you're here." I truly have no idea why I wrote that. There were other parts of the text that had typos too, so maybe I was having typing issues. Regardless, she began thinking & pondering that I might be with another woman. Of course, that wasn't the case, but I think it ended up being a bit of a wake up call to her. I almost said, "You should be queried about something like that!" But I refrained from scare tactics. I don't want to cheat.

I'll keep you all posted...

I so appreciate all the input, support and prayers that you've offered so far.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

monkeyboy said:


> Our girls are 3 & 5. It's ironic that she often worries about them growing up to have the self-esteem and body image issues she has, but she continues to not address her own and let them dictate so many parts of her life. Now, I know, I'm not a woman and can't understand the body image stuff like a woman does, but it seems that if it's depressing you and making your life hell, then you try to address it in whatever way possible. She just sort of stays stuck where she is with the whole thing.


Women don't have the corner market on self esteem and body image issues. They just have the corner market on being able to reveal those issues without much backlash or ridicule. I'm a man and I suffered through extraordinarily poor body image issues ever since childhood, and still have the emotional scars to prove it. It's a tough road. I can't even begin to tell you how insidious these issues were in my life; incredibly destructive in really subtle ways. You actually find yourself making major life decisions that you otherwise would not have if you had the esteem, and confidence, to be who you truly are.

But you're right. It's very easy to wallow in those issues endlessly. The problem becomes far bigger than the solution, especially if it's a weight issue. You can spend years feeling ashamed, broken, and beaten down over a problem that could technically be eliminated in a few months, or a year or two tops. 

Also she should know that you teach your kids to have body image issues without ever even saying a word. In my case it was my mom; she never downed me, or even herself, but I grew up in a home where it was so apparent she had issues. She was overweight, her body was very held, she was always on a diet, but never really succeeding to lose anything. I learned exactly from her how to feel deeply ashamed about your body, but never really show it on the outside. The best way for her to raise up the girls in a way that helps them feel good about their bodies is to get over her image issues and SHOW them. All the encouragement in the world to your daughters won't matter much if non-verbally she's expressing that she's ashamed, buried, and depressed about her body.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

caymangirl said:


> You are a rare one of a kind husband. I hope wives out there with husbands like you all, realize what they have. My husband just told me that I don't care about his feelings enough to care what he thinks about me and that I should as his wife always try to look good for him. He said he doesnt want to stop being attracted to me and it will make him not love me. Three days later I am still devastated. I am a stay at home mom with our infant son. He works offshore and is gone 2 mths at a time, basically 2/1 rotation.
> What I dont get is that he is no prize himself. He has no patience when he's home. I walk on eggshells just counting the days till he goes back to work. He destroys everything in the house with his irrational rages. What's going on with him? I feel like I am going crazy.


I encourage you to make your own thread and flesh out the details. Hopefully one of the man knowledgeable, and insightful, TAM posters can help direct you down a healing road.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Women don't have the corner market on self esteem and body image issues. They just have the corner market on being able to reveal those issues without much backlash or ridicule. I'm a man and I suffered through extraordinarily poor body image issues ever since childhood, and still have the emotional scars to prove it. It's a tough road. I can't even begin to tell you how insidious these issues were in my life; incredibly destructive in really subtle ways. You actually find yourself making major life decisions that you otherwise would not have if you had the esteem, and confidence, to be who you truly are.
> 
> But you're right. It's very easy to wallow in those issues endlessly. The problem becomes far bigger than the solution, especially if it's a weight issue. You can spend years feeling ashamed, broken, and beaten down over a problem that could technically be eliminated in a few months, or a year or two tops.
> 
> Also she should know that you teach your kids to have body image issues without ever even saying a word. In my case it was my mom; she never downed me, or even herself, but I grew up in a home where it was so apparent she had issues. She was overweight, her body was very held, she was always on a diet, but never really succeeding to lose anything. I learned exactly from her how to feel deeply ashamed about your body, but never really show it on the outside. The best way for her to raise up the girls in a way that helps them feel good about their bodies is to get over her image issues and SHOW them. All the encouragement in the world to your daughters won't matter much if non-verbally she's expressing that she's ashamed, buried, and depressed about her body.


Some excellent points! I've carried some baggage related to body image too (used to be called things like, "lazy fat ass," by my brothers when I was growing up. I really wasn't even much overweight, but it had an impact. When I was 14 (I'm now almost 40) I started exercising & never really looked back. The body insults went away & I moved past the cruel words from my past. I mostly exercise now for mental well-being more than how I look. I had the conversation (again) with my wife last night that just because I'm fit it doesn't mean that I expect the exact same level of fitness from her. In fact, I don't even care. She's beautiful to me. She worries because she thinks she looked much better when we were dating 10 years ago. Not true. Even if it were, I didn't get into marriage thinking our bodies would always be the same - I knew we'd get old together!

Sometimes I wonder if I should just let myself go so she'll feel better, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work.


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