# from abusive to clingy



## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

We’ve been married about 5 years and have our D. 7 and her D 19. The marriage has never been good – my judgement; a mixture of emotional unavailability and a constant flow of put-downs and abuse (me and kids) have tainted the atmosphere, and to cap all that any attempt to discuss these issues has been met with indifferent silence, denial or just plain “if you’re not happy do something”.

Well I did. I went to counselling – on my own started in 2012. I suggested we go together, but W. did not think it necessary.

Since 2014 I accepted the marriage was not working for me, and on advice from my counselor I started considering divorce. I planned and thought it through – slowly. I’m not good in a rush. So when I was ready Nov 2015 I said I wanted a divorce.

As there were no exchanges or discussions to find solutions to problems prior, my inner thoughts and unhappiness were never exposed, never understood, mails explaining my thoughts never read (I now know), so this news came as a surprise – but the reply was equally surprising. “No” we can work things out. This was followed by a very convincing and heartfelt plea to let us work together.

By Jan 2016, my enthusiasm to fix had been replaced by my original decision, because fundamentally I wanted out. So I repeated my wish to divorce. Again tears and pleas we must work this out. Again I buckled.

Repeat march 2016 (attempt n°3) and I am reeling again under intense pressure to stay together, this time by huge sexual activity, and all sorts of efforts to please me. All behaviours that were totally absent prior to mention of divorce.

I would love to hear from anyone on how to cope and break free from this difficult and manipulative relationship. 

On a technical note…..I own the home, so I’m not planning going anywhere!


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## unbe (Dec 20, 2013)

Wait she wants to work on it but wont go to MC?

Demand MC or file for divorce. 

Something doesnt sound right here....


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Have you considered BPD?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Hysterical bonding. Simple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Let your W know that in order for you to reconsider staying in the marriage, certain conditions must be met. The #1 demand should be MC, at least 6 months of intense therapy that she is actively working on. No half assed attempted all in. 

Then, everything else that you want .

At present she is just holding on because it's all she knows to do. That's why the amp up sexual activities, she is trying to bond you to her.

If she does not accept and is not meeting your demands, file. Because next year you will be in the same spot.
.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

I sounds like she is working to make you happy. Isn't that what you wanted? Doesn't every man what lot of sex? Is she still abusive? If not then you should stay with her until your daughter is grown and out of the house.


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

tagearl said:


> We’ve been married about 5 years and have our D. 7 and her D 19. The marriage has never been good – my judgement; a mixture of emotional unavailability and a constant flow of put-downs and abuse (me and kids) have tainted the atmosphere, and to cap all that any attempt to discuss these issues has been met with indifferent silence, denial or just plain “if you’re not happy do something”.
> 
> Well I did. I went to counselling – on my own started in 2012. I suggested we go together, but W. did not think it necessary.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you don't trust the current environment.

Are you able to remain strong in the face of her solicitations?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

So, you failed to communicate how urgent it was for her to change.
You eventually figured out how to communicate in a way that she understood.
She then made the changes you were looking for.
So if you were willing to make it work in 2013 if she just did X, then you should be willing to make it work in 2016 if she is doing X, given that you have a 7 year old.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

Hicks said:


> So, you failed to communicate how urgent it was for her to change.
> You eventually figured out how to communicate in a way that she understood.
> She then made the changes you were looking for.
> So if you were willing to make it work in 2013 if she just did X, then you should be willing to make it work in 2016 if she is doing X, given that you have a 7 year old.


yes that’s right, and the 7yo D. adds more weight. It is true I am now getting what I want(ed). But what is now coming my way carries no sway. It’s like the firemen turning up the day after your house burnt down – too late.

But it wasn't a threat (get your act together or I’ll leave) - i've checked out emotionally, since quite a while. And while the changes are good I am not filled with joy and desire. I don’t think I am angry or bearing a grudge, but after several years of abuse (enough to make me feel very disturbed and [email protected]) I find it extremely difficult/impossible? to say great darling let’s kiss and make up. 

Also given the history, what’s to prevent regression when ‘threats’ and divorce have been put to bed.

We cohabit quite satisfactorily for now, but my focus is on the wellbeing of D. D. still gets abuse. That is a deal breaker, and I don’t know how to best handle that. 

Given the cohabit is OK I prefer to stay close and manage D on a daily basis. 

The thought of losing D to a dysfunctional upbringing is not an option I am ready for (despite my desire to separate). Rocks and hard places.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

You sound a lot like me (wife made a few halfhearted positive changes, but it's too little too late, and no feelings are left).

I think the thing to ask right now is: how much do YOU want to stay in this relationship? When I asked myself that question the answer was "not at all." If you come to the same answer, then you have your solution. If you decide that there are things she could do that would change your mind, then DEMAND that she go to MC as a condition of any further relationship. And don't make any promises, just point out that it's her only hope of continuing in the relationship.

Also, if you have the willpower to do so, resist her sexual advances. That sounds like manipulation to me, but maybe that's just my own extremely dysfunctional relationship talking.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

What might help is determining the possibility of a PD. The nature of her behavior and timing of her abuse may indicate BPD. Borderlines get very nice when you about to leave. Look up Uptown, a TAM member with information about PD. The point is that the abuse always returns when they feel it's safe. Knowledge is power. 

Your daughter is a big concern. Can you apply for custody? She needs protection and therapy. Somehow you have to leverage something STBX wants to get her to treat your daughter well.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

thanks for all comments they really help.



LaundryMan said:


> You sound a lot like me (wife made a few halfhearted positive changes, but it's too little too late, and no feelings are left).
> 
> I think the thing to ask right now is: how much do YOU want to stay in this relationship? When I asked myself that question the answer was "not at all." If you come to the same answer, then you have your solution. If you decide that there are things she could do that would change your mind, then DEMAND that she go to MC as a condition of any further relationship. And don't make any promises, just point out that it's her only hope of continuing in the relationship.
> 
> Also, if you have the willpower to do so, resist her sexual advances. That sounds like manipulation to me, but maybe that's just my own extremely dysfunctional relationship talking.


I am sorry to hear you are in a similar place, but it helps to hear from people who know. Do I want to stay in this relationship? – NO. That’s why I wanted a divorce. Even with the changes (which were not asked for) I feel no desire to stay. 

Our divorce talks actually advanced until we could not agree about 50/50 parenting. The thought of D. (who already shows signs of distress) being 1-on-1 with dysfunction made me pull back. At present I need to find a way to stay in this unsatisfactory marriage to keep close to D. That is my quest. And to keep a certain amount of dignity, when my gut says move on.

Leaving my D. to a dysfunctional upbringing makes me feel fear and panic….I know I’ve been there. 


Catherine602


> What might help is determining the possibility of a PD. The nature of her behavior and timing of her abuse may indicate BPD. Borderlines get very nice when you about to leave. Look up Uptown, a TAM member with information about PD. The point is that the abuse always returns when they feel it's safe. Knowledge is strength.
> 
> Your daughter is a big concern. Can you apply for custody? She needs protection and therapy. Somehow you have to leverage something she wants to get her to treat your daughter well.


Uptown’s words are read and revered worldwide (I’m in France :smile2. He put me onto BPD. It enabled me to make sense of the chaos. Narcissism too fits and quite possibly some sociopathy. So despite the black and white nature of the individuals the (home) diagnosis is shades of grey. 

But home diagnosis is fraught. I thought from my observations, Narc. was leading the way, and I was expecting to be trashed and dumped on the divorce news. But instead it went more B…I hate you don’t leave me!!!

So IF this is where we are, W.’s actions are likely to be self serving.

Divorce ‘leverage’ works, I am being listened to and treated nicely. Need to get the nice treatment onto D. too, which is proving more difficult.

(FWIW - D. gets permanent non validation and non approval of everything, and she (D) is now on a constant quest for approval and attention.)


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> So despite the black and white nature of the individuals the (home) diagnosis is shades of grey. But *home diagnosis is fraught*.


@Tagearl, welcome back. When we started discussing your W's BPD traits more than two years ago, I was very impressed by your fearless pursuit of knowledge about basic human behavioral traits so as to better understand your W. Accordingly, my 1/8/14 post applauded the intellectual courage you show in being quick to acquire whatever information you can find about BPD and other "Cluster B" traits. 

I mention this now because I hate to see you disparaging your remarkable accomplishment by referring to it as a "home diagnosis." Actually, your saying that your W has strong BPD and NPD symptoms is not a diagnosis at all. Indeed, as I will explain below, even the psychologists themselves are unable to "diagnose" personality disorders -- not in the way that term is used in every field of the medical sciences.

As an initial matter, I observe that you should be fully capable of spotting strong occurrences of BPD and NPD traits, especially after living with a woman for more than five years. Indeed, you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to not be able to spot strong verbal abuse, anger issues, rapid flips between adoring and hating you, and lack of impulse control.

For the purpose of choosing a compatible mate or deciding whether to remain married to her, it does not really matter whether she has the full-blown disorder (i.e., meets 100% of the criteria for "having BPD"). That criteria is set at such a high threshold that it primarily serves only the interests of the courts (who don't want to institutionalize people) and insurance companies (who don't want to pay for lengthy therapy). They therefore insisted on the establishment of a bright line when that threshold was adopted in 1980. 

Yet, like selfishness and resentment, BPD and NPD traits are merely behavioral symptoms that everybody has to some degree. It therefore was ridiculous for the psychiatric community to adopt a dichotomous approach -- wherein a client is deemed "to have" or "not have" BPD.

Granted, this "yes or no" approach makes perfect sense in every field of the medical sciences, where clients are found to either have a disease or not. Chickenpox, for example, is something a person either "has" or "does not have." This is why, in the medical sciences, "disorder" means "disease." In psychiatry, however, it does not mean that. With respect to PDs, for example, there is NO KNOWN DISEASE that causes any of the ten personality disorders. Hence, in psychiatry, a personality "disorder" simply means "group of behavioral symptoms typically occurring together" (aka a "syndrome").

Of course, a substantial segment of the psychiatric community has long known that this dichotomous approach to diagnosis makes no sense for behavioral symptoms that vary in intensity from person to person. They knew it is senseless to say a person meeting only 90% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder." Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." 

Consequently, when a person is looking for a mate or deciding whether to remain married, obtaining a diagnosis of "no BPD" is unlikely to be helpful. It may be as useless as telling a blind man "There is no BUS coming" when he is deciding whether it is safe to step into a crosswalk. Importantly, a person satisfying 75% or 85% of the diagnostic criteria -- and, hence, "not having BPD" -- may be nearly as difficult to live with as a person satisfying 100%. 

I further note that the psychiatric community is still unable to "diagnose" in the way that term is used in all other scientific fields. When a psychologist tells you he has "diagnosed" you as having BPD, he only means that he has determined that your behavioral symptoms are severe and persistent. 

In every field of the medical sciences, however, "diagnosis" does NOT occur by simply telling you the severity or persistence of your symptoms. On the contrary, the doctor usually relies on YOU to provide that information. This is why the very first thing he will ask you is what symptoms you've been experiencing, how severe they are, and how long they have been occurring. 

Hence, when a medical doctor gives you a diagnosis, he is not describing your symptoms. Rather, he is telling you what CAUSES the symptoms that you have described to him. If instead the doctor were to simply tell you that your stomach pain is at a level 10 on a 10-point scale -- and then tell you to pay $200 on your way out -- you would be furious.

For several decades, psychologists tried to diagnose like the rest of the scientific community -- i.e., they seriously tried to identify the underlying causes of behavioral symptoms. Sadly, the result was an unmitigated disaster. It was so bad that a client seeing three different psychologists likely would be given three different diagnoses. By the mid-1970s, the field of psychology had become such a joke to the scientific community that the American Psychiatric Association (APA) members decided to abandon their futile efforts to diagnose mental disorders. 

Specifically, in 1980 the APA stopped trying to identify the _causes _of the behavioral symptoms. Instead, it adopted a new approach (DSM-III) in which it identifies only the _symptoms_ themselves. The irony, of course, is that the APA decided to use the term "diagnosis" to describe this process of rating the severity of symptoms. Never mind that nobody has yet been able to prove, to a certainty, what it is that CAUSES personality disorders. Although there are some good theories and empirical evidence, it is yet unproven as to why BPD and other PDs occur in some abused children but not in others.

Unfortunately, this misuse of the term "diagnosis" has confused most of the lay public. Many laymen fear that, if they start speaking of behavioral symptoms in an educated manner, people will think they are trying to do an "armchair diagnosis." The unfortunate result is that many people remain fully reliant on street language (e.g., talking about a$$h**es and b!tc*es) instead of using the wonderful vocabulary of descriptive terms provided by the APA's DSM. 

These fearful folks confuse "spotting symptoms" with "making a diagnosis" even though there is a world of difference between the two. They don't realize that the psychiatric community WANTS them to learn how to spot these behavioral symptoms -- i.e., the warning signs associated with each disorder. This is why hundreds of mental health institutions describe these behavioral symptoms on their public websites.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Since she does not treat your daughter well, you could try spending all of your spare time with your daughter alone. It makes sense to get your daughter away from her as much as possible when your wife's behavior inappropriate. Your wife gets less of your time but when she is prepared to act appropriately, you can incrementally increase time with her. Let her know that is your plan. Is you daughter in therapy?


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Since she does not treat your daughter well, you could try spending all of your spare time with your daughter alone. It makes sense to get your daughter away from her as much as possible when your wife's behavior inappropriate. Your wife gets less of your time but when she is prepared to act appropriately, you can incrementally increase time with her. Let her know that is your plan. Is you daughter in therapy?


In fact that is what happens. Bike rides, bunnies, general fooling around happens with me 1 on 1. Mum doesn't 'get' any of this kind of interaction, and happily leaves it to me. That is why staying in the bad marriage has a very clear advantage - these kinds of activities can freely carry on, whereas with separation there would be a big change (forD.)


As for acting inappropriately, mum has no understanding of the concept. She is mum and so what she does is fine. 'They are my daughters I can do what I want!'

We went for our 1st session of therapy and this very matter was brought up. Mum still could not grasp any downside to being ' a bit tough'.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

from Uptown



> I mention this now because I hate to see you disparaging your remarkable accomplishment by referring to it as a "home diagnosis." Actually, your saying that your W has strong BPD and NPD symptoms is not a diagnosis at all. Indeed, as I will explain below, even the psychologists themselves are unable to "diagnose" personality disorders -- not in the way that term is used in every field of the medical sciences.


 @Uptown. Thanks for input. I added this 'home' bit on the diagnosis because I remember one contributor getting a bit snotty about my comments because I didn't have an authoritative "diagnosis".

I feel sure good observations over time can give a pretty good idea of what is going on; but unless you have the knowledge that PD even exists (which I did not when all this started) then observations only make you crazy and mad. Indeed a few hours with a therapist against several years can give the homey a distinct advantage.


Also you say


> Unfortunately, this misuse of the term "diagnosis" has confused most of the lay public. Many laymen fear that, if they start speaking of behavioral symptoms in an educated manner, people will think they are trying to do an "armchair diagnosis." The unfortunate result is that many people remain fully reliant on street language (e.g., talking about a$$h**es and b!tc*es) instead of using the wonderful vocabulary of descriptive terms provided by the APA's DSM.


I understand this bit. Trying to get my head around what I was living, I was fearful of PD type labels, as in some ways it was a cop out. Grand titles would explain my problems yet it was me who was conjuring them up. So for a while I was happier to use the term manipulative which is everyday/lay yet captured the mood quite well.

While all of this (relationship resolution) takes quite a while to unravel, I have to say the psychological detective work that can go along with it, is in itself a source of satisfaction. And if at the end I can help D. carry on giggling and leading a happy and healthy life a few bad years of marriage will be an acceptable price.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I never advocate staying in a bad marriage but it sounds like your daughter would greatly benefit by your constant presence. Especially since you try very hard to compensate for her mother's behavior. 

Parents like your wife are clueless as to the damage they do. Or just don't care. But thankfully your daughter has one parent who gets it.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

Openminded said:


> I never advocate staying in a bad marriage but it sounds like your daughter would greatly benefit by your constant presence. Especially since you try very hard to compensate for her mother's behavior.


Thanks

Given that W. is responding to 'threat' of divorce in +ve way daily routine is much better. Given also that D. gets full time 'supervision' by me, keeping the marriage going does have benefits.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

I love you all - many thanks for helping.

The reason is quite simple. I have been struggling to sort my r/s out. MY RELATIONSHIP, ie me and my problems.

Get out was the clear answer, but proved difficult. Was I just not 'man' enough, were there still emotions lurking? Nothing was crystal clear. Until...

I realised divorcing would get me clear of the disaster zone, but it would also leave my D. alone and right in there (most of the time).

This was not cool, if it is not a good environment for me it is certainly not a good environment for her.

So the way forward is to secure a cooperative household (talk of divorce unwittingly provided that) and stay close to ensure D. keeps happy and healthy.

Yep I was happy to abandon an abusive r/s, yet leave my D. right in it. 

That was not a good call....I now know.

This scenario will not last forever, but it is a good enough one for now.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I think this is a typical reaction. Your wife sounds like she is possibly passive-aggressive and at the very least emotionally unavailable for whatever reason. Has she ever said why she has been distant and does not want MC? My husband is your wife and he is PA in every way, to a T by the book. If she is PA you are beating your head against the wall, things will not change. They have to have the security of that person in their life but they are emotionally unavailable, undependable, do not communicate well, will not carry out plans as you have discussed and then later says they have changed their mind, their logic is completely illogical, they fear intimacy and rejection. IN a marriage the PA has to have a target to take on their responsibility, that person then is the person they blame for all that is wrong ion their life. They cannot face the reality of themselves and what they have done to others. In their minds they are the victim. Does this sound like your wife? If so, you will continue to wish for things to be better and they will as long as you are walking out the door but they will never truly change. These people learn this behavior in their childhood, maybe times due to abuse or threat of it in their home. They realize they have no voice and they learn to trust no one. You can't get them help, they have to get so miserable that they seek it for themselves.

You have had years to think this thru and slowly separate yourself emotionally but news of this would make her want to try. If she does not want MC I would question just how much she wants to make the marriage work. I have a feeling once she gets comfortable she will be back to her old self and you will be there wondering what happened again.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

@AVR1962 thanks for your comments, and sorry you are going through something similar. Plenty of PA, emotional unavailability PD traits etc etc, and I have not the slightest thought that any of this will ever change for the better. I am not looking to salvage the marriage. It is what it is. A dysfunctional family unit, some bits work most of it doesn't.

What I have managed to achieve is a calmer domestic environment where I am OK to remain, while I ensure D's wellbeing.

D. is young so needs support.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

A resource I think will help you is http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/319418-abuse-thread.html

And Out of the FOG

Especially in the glossary on outofthefog look up Hoovering.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

It seems some know your background well, so I'll go with the history provided here instead of your original post, which had me questioning a lot of things.

If your wife has a personality disorder on the severe end of the spectrum, is she not willing to get help? I'm gathering not. If not, then leave. The emotional damage done to the young is awful. I'm just finding out of some of what my DD17 went through (4 when I left).

Divorce and try to be amicable. But the minute she brings your child into it, petition the court for a court ordered psychological evaluation for parental fitness. If you can't get a real diagnosis through her voluntarily, get it through a court order. Now, if htere isn't anything wrong, you'll look mean and manipulative. But if you are absolutely convinced, it's worth rolling the dice. That's how I got the official diagnosis (I had to go, too) and was able to severely limit his visitation. Now that she's starting to share some of what he said and did it breaks my heart. Don't wait.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

Hi Enjoli - I'll need to talk to my lawyer, we live in France so rules are probably different.

We are presently in joint consultation with a family psychologist. She was chosen because she knows BPD.

Now IF the therapist discovers traits that make her think BPD, what happens next?

Does she declare to both of us her findings? Do I get a certificate that says your W........

Can she whisper it to me?

Does she keep quite and keep us coming back?

Really not familiar with this process.

Any advice appreciated.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

tagearl said:


> Does she declare to both of us her findings? Do I get a certificate that says your W........ Can she whisper it to me?


Tag, I cannot speak to the practice in France. Here in the States, therapists generally won't tell EITHER of you (or your insurance carrier) if they diagnose your spouse as having full-blown BPD. It is well known -- both inside and outside the psychiatric community -- that therapists typically withhold a BPD diagnosis to protect their client. See, e.g., the classic 1992 Dartmouth Medical School article, "The Beginning of Wisdom Is Never Calling a Patient a Borderline." There are several reasons for this withholding of information, which I discuss in my post at Loath to Diagnose. 

With my BPDer exW, for example, I spent a small fortune taking her to six different psychologists/psychiatrists and three MCs for weekly sessions held for 15 years. In all that time, NONE of them would tell me what personality disorder my exW had. Instead, the only thing they would report were the co-occurring "clinical disorders" such as anxiety and depression. 

Because insurance companies generally refuse to cover personality disorders, the therapists realize that any diagnosis of a PD is "unbillable" (to the insurance carrier) while a diagnosis of a clinical disorder is "billable." The therapists also know that giving a client a diagnosis of BPD almost certainly means she will immediately quit therapy.

During the last five years of my marriage, my exW had weekly sessions with a psychologist who would never tell us what was wrong with her. Whenever I asked -- as I did many times over five years -- the psych would only say "I don't believe labels are useful." The closest I ever got her to telling me the diagnosis occurred during my very last meeting with her, at which time I was angry with this psych for her having withheld that information. She grudgingly told me "Your wife has a thought disorder," which of course is what a PD is. But she never used the "BPD" term.

Hence, if the therapists in France are similar to those here in the States, Tag, your best chance of obtaining a candid opinion on your W's issues is to see a psychologist who has _never treated or seen your W_. In that way, you can be assured that the psych is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not those of your W. Of course, this means the psych cannot render a formal diagnosis, which would require him to actually see her. But there is a good chance, if she is not his client, he will tell you his "opinion" based on your description of five years of her behavior. 

As @*EnjoliWoman* suggests (post #24), you may be able to petition successfully for a court ordered psychological evaluation for parental fitness. As Enjoli notes, the risk of that approach is that, if there isn't anything wrong with your W, you'll look mean and manipulative to the judge. Your chances of obtaining a court ordered psychological evaluation may be greatly improved if you have any evidence (e.g., recordings) of your W being abusive to your child or abusive to you in front of your child. Your attorney should be able to provide you guidance on whether to pursue this approach.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

@tagearl, I know you think staying so that you can "protect" your daughter is the right thing to do, but I must respectfully disagree with you. I can pretty much guarantee you that your daughter would LOVE to be able to get away from her mother, based on your description of how she treats her. I grew up in a household where my sister and I were verbally and emotionally abused on a constant basis by our dad, and all we could ever think of was how much we wanted to get away, or for HIM to GO away. Its a horrible way to live. My daughter's father ended up being very similar to mine (I hate admitting to that) and my daughter has thanked me numerous times for divorcing him so that she didn't have to live with him all the time. You can petition for full custody, with limited visitation with her mum. And as Enjoli suggested, have a psych eval done as well.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

@ 3Xnocharm I like and appreciate your take on the situation.


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## WhyMe66 (Mar 25, 2016)

She is manipulating you; either through bullying behavior or the tears...


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> @tagearl, I know you think staying so that you can "protect" your daughter is the right thing to do, but I must respectfully disagree with you. I can pretty much guarantee you that your daughter would LOVE to be able to get away from her mother, based on your description of how she treats her. I grew up in a household where my sister and I were verbally and emotionally abused on a constant basis by our dad, and all we could ever think of was how much we wanted to get away, or for HIM to GO away. Its a horrible way to live. My daughter's father ended up being very similar to mine (I hate admitting to that) and my daughter has thanked me numerous times for divorcing him so that she didn't have to live with him all the time. You can petition for full custody, with limited visitation with her mum. And as Enjoli suggested, have a psych eval done as well.


I understand your story. I grew up alone with a nasty mum but as I had no sibling to swap my worries with they just stayed with me. Also as a young un I tried to get close to M. not realising it was a pointless exercise, and that distance would have been better. I left to work abroad age 22 and finally aged about 40 !!!! I realised my M. was not on my side.

All these thoughts and yours are with me constantly as I try to find the best for my D. Thanks.


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

From abusive to clingy and back again!

All in 3 weeks. So I do believe we are back to plan A – divorce.

D. (daughter) is at the centre of my thoughts, and heavy weight contibutors here (and by that I mean I listen with respect) have suggested that both staying and leaving are possible routes. With peace on the home front I would be inclined to stay. But as things are no longer going well……..

Several scenarios have been put forward as to parenting for D. post separation. Here are my thoughts and I would appreciate any input.

1)	Go full custody route based on psy evaluation. I like this idea, but risks have been cited. If W. is a high-functioning xPD I would suggest there is a pretty good chance that she will come out smelling of roses, and me the manipulative tyrant! We are in Old Europe (France), and I’m not sure how clued up the authorities might be (no offence). Also anglo-saxon man coming in and complaining about our women !!!!

2)	Go for 50/50. She has stated this is not going to happen. However the courts will decide in the event of our disagreement, and 50/50 is not normally withheld. However a Narc mum losing (her take of) a custody battle will probably not lead to great coparenting.

3)	Fight for 50/50 but then let her win (get the lioness’ share). The winning should let her feel good/powerful!? But then as hands on kid stuff is not her thing I can just be on hand to scoop up D. as and when. (Is that terrible and manipulative?)


Thanks again for listening


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## tagearl (Dec 21, 2013)

AVR1962 said:


> I have a feeling once she gets comfortable she will be back to her old self and you will be there wondering what happened again.


you said it


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> 1)	Go full custody route based on psy evaluation.


I agree with you that a psych evaluation is risky and unlikely to be favorable unless you have some recorded evidence of her abusing the child -- or unless the child describes abuses. As I've noted earlier, therapists generally are loath to tell a BPDer the name of his/her disorder. 

This withholding of information is no secret to the family-law attorneys who specialize in divorces and spousal abuse. Indeed, one California firm explains on its website why there is little chance of being able to use a BPD diagnosis in the divorce proceedings against a very abusive spouse. This article, by trial lawyer Joel Douglas, states:_"Often mental health care clinicians in completing their DSM list of differential diagnoses will “defer” or simply leave an Axis II diagnostic impression blank, irrespective of whether a personality disorder exists." 
_​Douglas gives four reasons as to why _"many psychotherapists are loathe to list Axis II personality disorders."_ See full article at Do You Know Someone Like This: The BPD. 



> 2)	Go for 50/50. ...However a Narc mum losing (her take of) a custody battle will probably not lead to great coparenting.


I suggest Option 2 -- that you do your best to win at least 50/50 custody. If your STBXW has strong BPD and/or NPD traits, you accomplish nothing by being nice and pulling punches. Such people are incapable of having any lasting sense of appreciation. It therefore is impossible to build up a store of good will that you can later draw on during the hard times. Think about it. Have you ever seen her appreciate any of your gifts and sacrifices for a period lasting longer than a few days? To a BPDer, the only thing that matters is the intense feeling she is experiencing now at this very moment in time.



> 3)	Fight for 50/50 but then let her win (get the lioness’ share). The winning should let her feel good/powerful!?


Again, letting her win buys you nothing if she has strong NPD or BPD traits. Her good feelings toward you will be washed away by the next tide of intense feelings flooding her mind.


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