# Codependence, enabling and staying



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

So I just had another heart wrenching discussion with my ex husband. If you arent familiar with my ridiculous drama:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...question-about-mental-personality-issues.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/68297-i-dont-want-love-him.html

(just an aside, yes, I AM aware of my own codependence in this fvcked up situation, and of my own need to detach)

He and I have differing views about dealing with the addict/PD. Tonight he said this, direct quote: 

"I do believe that no matter who it is that may have problems you should never leave their side or think they cant change. Yes they make bad choices and hurt themselves, family, friends, etc...but that doesnt mean you give up on them." 

Him saying this says to me, that it doesnt matter how much pain the family is going to go through, that its okay for the addict to inflict pain and suffering to everyone else around them. :scratchhead: That because they have a problem, you try to point them in the right direction and if they dont listen, you just keep letting them abuse you, your kids, your siblings...

My view is that you can only do so much for so long, and there comes a time where you have to remove the addict or personality disordered person from your life. There comes a point where self preservation has to prevail, and you must stop enabling. Addicts usually need to hit rock bottom before they come to their own realization that they need to seek help. People with PD's, especially BPD'rs from what I have been reading, follow a different pattern, and will continue abusing those who love them on down the line, unless they are serious about getting therapy for themselves, and staying means ongoing abuse.

He is making me feel like a terrible person for my view.  From what I am remembering about Al-Anon, they encourage detaching, and setting boundaries, and stopping the enabling. I am not recalling sacrifice of self and family as part of their guidelines. Am I wrong? I really didnt appreciate it being implied by him that I am somehow lacking in core values because I dont believe in enabling someone forever. I am looking for some other views from folks who have been through this, I am interested to hear other opinions and insights. 

Example....
My niece's ex bf (and baby daddy) is a crack addict, who makes treks into the bowels of East St Louis, and trades his vehicles to hole up in a crack house for days at at time getting high. His parents constantly bail him out of jail, get his cars out of impound or buy him other cars, give him money, pay for his lawyer, etc, etc. He has been living this way for at least the last 7-8 years. Why would he stop, when his folks clean up his mess and save his ass every time? Where is his motivation to get clean? He has no consequences for his actions.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

3Xnocharm said:


> So
> 
> 
> 
> but that doesnt mean you give up on them."


Detaching from someones behavior or even divorcing them etc doesn't always mean you're giving up on them. You can love someone and care about them but that doesn't mean you have to be 100% involved in their life, or that you should put up with inexcuseable behavior. 

There comes a time when the person who has been hurt or even damaged from another persons behavior, where they need to start thinking of themselves and whats best for them. Its not selfish, even though it may appear that way to the other person. 

Of course he is making you feel like a terrible person for your view on this, because thats what he is trying to do. He wants you to stay and "Fix" him,because once you're gone or no longer enmeshed in his life, then who can he control? Who can he manipulate? Who can he place blame on? No one, which means the only person left to blame is himself, time to take responsibility for ones actions. Lots of people do not want to do this. IMO, you need to stand your ground.

Also, you can throw him a life jacket, and then he can either sink or swim, the choice is his.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Never allow anyone to make you feel bad about your core beliefs.

You give them too much power when you do that.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. I am just very frustrated right now. He had come to me telling me that he loves me, that he wanted us to be together, and that he was ready to finally start to move forward, away from her. (the former ex wife, now wife again) She had chosen her junkie friends over her family and had left the home, and he was finding some peace with moving on. Then he took her some things to her hotel room and found her so drugged out of her mind she couldnt even walk, so then he felt compelled to save her again. She finally managed to stay in rehab for a couple of weeks, and he has been trying to decide what he wanted to do...while I sat here like dumbass and waited for him to choose, me or her. How stupid. So last night he finally came to a decision and this is when this whole discussion took place again. He has told me previously that he had a problem with my stance that I would stop helping if this were he and I together. I was honest when he asked me that hypothetical question, maybe it was the wrong thing to say to someone I was wanting to be with, but I couldnt lie. All the sh!t she has put him and his kids through, I WOULD be done with it. I truly believe that you can enable someone to death.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

He is your ex, and he is another persons ex and back together with too etc, He has the title on being an EX, its probably best to leave it at that, and get on with your life. Sounds like a mess, life is to short.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Yes, you can enable someone to death!

You are on the right track 3XNoCharm! He's testing you and you are passing with flying colors! Which of course means that HE is the one to have to change....so that must mean you are at fault. 

You are doing the right thing!


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

You can enable someone to death. Then you'll live in guilt for the rest of your life because somehow you feel responsible for helping them kill themself.

My take on his announcement to you is this:

He is telling you point blank that no matter what you feel or want from him he will NOT stop going to her and doing what he calls 'helping'. He said this to you to put you on notice, that as long as you are in his life, and she is alive, he will continue to look after her. He doesn't care that it's unhealthy, nor does he care what it does to your relationship with him. He's firmly planted in her corner.

What you need to do is decide how much longer this arrangement will be okay with you. You will have 3 people in your relationship at all times. He would get up and leave your bed to go to her if she called. 

I know you're struggling with this and you're aware of how unhealthy it is for you to stay in his life, but please don't allow his statements or comments about his so called caregiving make you feel inadequate. You can't argue with a sick mind. He's just as sick as she is.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> My take on his announcement to you is this:
> 
> He is telling you point blank that no matter what you feel or want from him he will NOT stop going to her and doing what he calls 'helping'. He said this to you to put you on notice, that as long as you are in his life, and she is alive, he will continue to look after her. He doesn't care that it's unhealthy, nor does he care what it does to your relationship with him. He's firmly planted in her corner.


This is 100% true. And you are right about there being 3 of us in the relationship, it has been that way too long already. He has some deep seated need to play hero here.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> This is 100% true. And you are right about there being 3 of us in the relationship, it has been that way too long already. He has some deep seated need to play hero here.


IMO that's not a slight on you in any way, that's his choice to do so. If he wants to look at you with disdain for NOT nailing yourself to a cross for a drug addict, then let him. He would be doing you a favor to remove himself from your life. 

Every conversation you have with him about her will be about him justifying his behavior and your role is to listen and accept it, not disagree or steer him in the opposite direction. You have to remember that he needs help too, and it's not help that YOU can give him. He'll resist you not going along with his program in this.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

A Bit Much, I feel like you have been sitting right next to me watching this. He does resist when I offer my viewpoint, he is so set in what he thinks he should do, and all my logic about it just goes in one ear and out the other, including when I bring up his kids.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> So I just had another heart wrenching discussion with my ex husband. If you're not familiar with my ridiculous drama:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...question-about-mental-personality-issues.html
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/68297-i-dont-want-love-him.html
> ...



Pyr·rhic victory (prk)
n.
A victory that is offset by staggering losses.

Source

Your husband is using shaming language to guilt you back into his destructive world. Lets say you give him a chance again and you stand by his side through his recovery. Do you honestly believe you will come out unscathed by it? What if he only gets marginally better with frequent relapses?

To address your EX about not giving up on them let me give you some food for thought so you have another perspective. 

My stepfather was diagnosed with Alzheimer's almost 8 years ago which at the time my mother had no idea the terrible physical, emotional and spiritual toll it would take on her. My mother has always been the rock of the family. Mind you she already widowed from her first husband (my dad) and she had to take care of my father in his last months on earth (cancer). That was very grueling as a young kid and I hated seeing my dad suffer but I hated even more seeing my mom run a business, take care of my dad when he was sent home to die and then watching her cry herself to sleep. My mother must have been a Roman general in a previous life, what a woman!

So fast forward years later after my Stepfather was formally diagnosed with Alzheimer's, he started to become abusive to my mom and was constantly having frequent mood swings. He also drank to self medicate and one time even hit my mom which he apologized after I threatened to kick his ass. He quit the booze and got better but the Alzheimer's finally progressed to the final stage and he was bed ridden. My mom was forced to take care of him 24 hours as he lost the ability to self care. 

My mom tried to be the best caretaker and wife possible but due to the stress and lack of sleep (Alzheimer patients lose track of time) her immune system was so worn out she was almost killed by a blood infection. At that point I sat her down and told her we did not want to lose her and that it was time to put him in a assisted living facility. 

She visits him frequently but ultimately if she kept trying to take care of my step dad I firmly believe it would have killed her. So what does this have to do with you? Are you willing to take a chance on taking care of somebody for years just to watch your health be obliterated? My step dad did not have a choice to get sick but my mom had a choice. She didn't give up on him per se but she put herself first before it destroyed her. I firmly believe in helping people as much as possible and believe in personal sacrifice but the sacrifice should not be in vain. You are a unique, irreplaceable, individual that deserves to live!


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> A Bit Much, I feel like you have been sitting right next to me watching this. He does resist when I offer my viewpoint, he is so set in what he thinks he should do, and all my logic about it just goes in one ear and out the other, including when I bring up his kids.


I can see this from an objective view. I feel for you because being objective about someone you love and care deeply isn't easy. Your emotional attachment to him is working against rational thinking.

Logic. 

When a person has made their mind up to do something, logic goes right out the window. All you're doing is making him angry because you are seen as non-supportive. He wants to support her, he wants YOU to support HIM doing so. Maybe he does think he's a hero for what he's doing and he's probably appalled you don't see him the same way. He wants to convince you that his way is right. You know better though, it's not even about right or wrong. Every intervention process is about seperation from the people that enable the addict to continue in their destructive behavior. I have YET to see a successful intervention occur with the addict staying in touch with people that are unable to say NO, this is enough and turning their backs.

He's not ready to do this with her. He's getting something from being there for her, feeling responsible for her. He needs help to break this cycle, and until he gets it, he'll expect you to support his heroism. 

I'm sorry you are dealing with this. At some point you will have to preserve yourself from him lashing out at you. You're able to do what he cannot right now, and he's hating you for it rather than learning his own lesson.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Sanity said:


> She visits him frequently but ultimately if she kept trying to take care of my step dad I firmly believe it would have killed her. So what does this have to do with you? Are you willing to take a chance on taking care of somebody for years just to watch your health be obliterated? My step dad did not have a choice to get sick but my mom had a choice. She didn't give up on him per se but she put herself first before it destroyed her. I firmly believe in helping people as much as possible and believe in personal sacrifice but the sacrifice should not be in vain. You are a unique, irreplaceable, individual that deserves to live!


He isnt the one with the addiction/mental issue, but this right here is what my concern is with him and his never-give-up stance.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

3X, you're right and he is mistaken. 

You're enabling his enabling! And it's making you unhappy. 

I also think he's feeding you a line of baloney. He did divorce her, after all! He may feel guilty for it, and perhaps she initiated it, but he signed his name on the dotted line.


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## happysnappy (Jan 8, 2013)

He's using your codependency as a way to get to you. He knows he can make you feel guilty. Don't buy into it. I completely agree that there is a point where you know they aren't wanting change and you can't make them. I have done the same and I haven't regretted it for a minute. My life is happier and less stressful than ever


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> 3X, you're right and he is mistaken.
> 
> You're enabling his enabling! And it's making you unhappy.
> 
> I also think he's feeding you a line of baloney. He did divorce her, after all! He may feel guilty for it, and perhaps she initiated it, but he signed his name on the dotted line.


Yep, he did divorce her, and HE initiated it and pushed it through quickly. This was after years of cheating, lying, drinking and drug abuse on her part...he used to follow her when he knew she was lying and witnessed all of this first hand...and years of temper tantrums and screaming fits, and verbal and physical abuse toward him. 

I have been enabling his enabling, I know.  Its been with the hopes of getting him back, he keeps dangling love in front of me and acknowledges the good I bring to his life. I am a fool.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

3Xnocharm said:


> Yep, he did divorce her, and HE initiated it and pushed it through quickly. This was after years of cheating, lying, drinking and drug abuse on her part...he used to follow her when he knew she was lying and witnessed all of this first hand...and years of temper tantrums and screaming fits, and verbal and physical abuse toward him.
> 
> I have been enabling his enabling, I know.  Its been with the hopes of getting him back, he keeps dangling love in front of me and acknowledges the good I bring to his life. I am a fool.


Well, you're not a fool, but you are certainly making foolish decisions with a man who is just not that into you. If he was, the ex wouldn't be a blip on his radar.


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## fall guy (Nov 9, 2012)

Your story is similar to mine. I recently filed for divorce from my wife of 16 years after dealing with a lot of crazy behavior. There comes a point when enough is enough!

Here’s my story: 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/69017-wolf-sheep-s-clothing.html

But now she is making me feel terrible for no longer wanting to put up with all this crazy behavior. I feel terrible, but I also feel like it’s the right thing to do for both of us. 

I can really relate to your quote about enabling someone to death. I’m totally guilty of this and sometimes the only way to break this cycle is detaching yourself from the situation.

Good luck!


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Fall Guy, I re-read your thread that you linked, I remember reading it when you posted. You can definately relate to a lot of what my ex has been through with this woman, and I am glad that you are getting out from under her. Dont feel guilty about it! She doesnt feel any guilt or remorse for what SHE has done, and you have to protect your own well being. Maybe your STBXW will finally seek some serious help for herself. I wish my ex would find your strength.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

3Xnocharm that's the thing. You CAN have this man. Just not all to yourself. That's the tradeoff. Being with him means being with her too, and supporting his decisions when it comes to her.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> 3Xnocharm that's the thing. You CAN have this man. Just not all to yourself. That's the tradeoff. Being with him means being with her too, and supporting his decisions when it comes to her.


Its funny you say this, I had told him that I could be supportive of him helping her if it meant that he was moving forward AWAY from her with me. He has at least realized this wouldnt be fair to me. 

I have just started reading Codependent No More, so I am hoping that will at least help ME, maybe one of us can get on the road to some normalcy! Thinking of sending him a copy, but its probably a moot point.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

In light of his latest comments, I would say it would be a moot point to send him that book. He's not interested in preserving himself above trying to 'save' her.

Take the focus off of him and keep it on yourself. You have to jump into the lifeboat on your own here.


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