# The Most Effective Way To Destroy Your Husb, Ruin Your Marriage, Encourage Infidelity



## EllisRedding

A few things to note:

- The author is Matt Walsh who is a very conservation / traditional author, so keep that in mind with the below
- Before jumping to any conclusions, the author does not imply that the Husband should just be handed out respect like candy. As the author puts it "He is challenged to live up to the respect his wife has for him. "
- My interest in this article, I have witnessed first hand women trashing their husbands, most notable in front of others. I don't understand why anyone would consider this behavior acceptable. Also, and please note this is just my opinion, it seems to be somewhat accepted for a female to do this to her husband, but if a husband did this to his W in public all kinds of noise would be made.

So with that being said, thoughts from the TAMmers?



> There is more than one way to cheat on your spouse — or, I should say, cheat your spouse. And it seems that many husbands are being cheated by their wives in a way that is no less damaging and no more justified than being cheated on. This form of "cheating" is all the more common because our culture tells women that men aren’t owed anything in the first place. You can’t cheat them out of something you were never supposed to give them, after all.
> 
> But a husband is owed something, and his wife is obliged to provide it. He is not only owed it; he needs it.
> 
> That is: respect.
> 
> A wife who belittles her husband, cuts him down, nitpicks him relentlessly, holds her affection — both physical and emotional — as a ransom, nags him endlessly, criticizes him constantly, humiliates him in public and to her friends and in front of the children, and will not allow him to take a leadership position in the home, cannot be terribly surprised when he begins to withdraw. And if he cheats — which would be a great and indefensible evil, no matter how cold and domineering his wife may be — it cannot be said that he was the first. She cheated him; she lied to him, by promising to respect him and treat him like a man, only to turn around and treat him like a child.
> 
> Men have a deep desire for respect. It is truly a catastrophe that we are not raising our girls to understand and appreciate this fact. Instead they learn, often from their own mothers, from the media, from television, advertisements, academia, and so on, that men are worthless oafs who should be handled accordingly until they prove themselves worthy of better treatment. "My husband will be respected if he earns it," the wife declares. "Let him do the chores I assign to him, let him accomplish everything I require, let him dance to my tune, and then perhaps I’ll reward him like a circus animal with little pellets of respect."
> 
> This is not the right approach.
> 
> A husband does not need to earn his wife’s respect any more than a wife needs to earn her husband’s love. A wife ought to respect her husband because he is her husband, just as he ought to love and honor her because she is his wife. Your husband might “deserve” it when you mock him, berate him, belittle him, and nag him, but you don’t marry someone in order to give them what they deserve. In marriage, you give them what you’ve promised.
> 
> This doesn’t mean that a man has a license to be lazy, abusive, or uncaring. Precisely the opposite. He is challenged to live up to the respect his wife has for him. But if his wife parcels out her respect on a reward system, the husband will feel demoralized and empty. He will not feel at home in his home. He will not have the sense of masculine purpose and fulfillment that his family life ought to afford him. After a while, he will dread coming home at night, preferring to remain at work where his contributions are appreciated and his talents are admired. Now the marriage has entered a very dangerous place. If a man feels more like a man when he’s away from his wife than when he’s with her, disaster is right around the corner. The marriage is already half-dead. It won’t take much to finish it off.
> 
> We all seem to understand that love is supposed to be unconditional, but we struggle to see how respect must be the same. I wonder: how would we respond to a husband who says he is not going to love his wife because she hasn’t earned it? What would we say about a man who chooses to act unlovingly toward his wife because she isn’t doing a good job of keeping the house together, or she doesn’t have dinner ready when he comes home, or she isn’t properly satisfying him in other ways, or she isn’t doing all the things he demands on the timetable that he prefers? Even if it were true that the wife is slacking in her responsibilities, we would consider the man to be a monster for holding that over her head or using it as an excuse to degrade and demean her.
> 
> So, why do we accept this approach from women? Why is it considered appropriate for a woman to order her husband around, but not the reverse? Why is it normal in our culture for a woman to assign a list of chores to her husband (the “Honey Do List,” we call it), yet we would think a man tyrannical and possibly abusive if he gave his wife her own list of mandatory assignments for the day? "Headed to work, honey. Your chore list is on the fridge." Why do we think nothing of women who sit around complaining to each other about their husbands, even when those very same women would be devastated if their husbands did the same? Why is it acceptable for a woman to kick a man out of his own bed and banish him to the living room like a scolded puppy, while it would be seen as entirely unacceptable for a man to pull the same stunt with his wife? Imagine a wife saying to her girlfriends, “I’m really in the doghouse, girls. My husband made me sleep on the couch last night.” Her friends would probably tell her to call the police and file for divorce.
> 
> I am blessed to have married a woman who operates differently. She respects me without condition, even when I have not earned it. She builds me up and in the process helps me to become more deserving of the respect she has already granted me. GK Chesterton said the great lesson of ‘Beauty and the Beast’ is that a thing must be loved before it is lovable. I would add only that a man must also be respected before he is respectable. I have grown as a man, a husband, and a father, because my wife treated me as a leader in the home long before I had any idea what it meant to lead or how to do it.
> 
> Sadly, the average man in America is not always given this advantage. He enters marriage and finds himself immediately in a hole. He must prove his worth if he wants to be treated like he has any. His wife paints a line on the floor and expects him to walk it perfectly. But he will inevitably stumble, as all men (and women) do, and his wife will chastise him and use his mistake as blackmail against him.
> 
> A man in this situation is called nonetheless to endure, to fight for his family, and never to be unfaithful to his wife or leave her. But if he does wander, it should be noted that he is not the only traitor in the marriage. She betrayed him. She promised him a wife and instead gave him a stepmother. The two have now betrayed each other, each in their own way.
> 
> There are two sides to every story, as they say. I think this is the side that is not often told.


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## Bananapeel

While the general gist of this article is fine, there is a major shortfall. Basically, it implies that the man has given away his masculinity to his wife and needs her validation to get it back. If he is truly masculine he doesn't need his wife to give him respect because that will come from within and his wife (and others) will see it and respond accordingly. I know wives that treat their husbands exactly the way this article says I always just shake my head at it because it the man that is letting it happen. I actually have a close friend that was pulling this crap by belittling and insulting her husband at my place, so I told her that she wasn't welcome at my house until she got herself under control because I didn't want my kids witnessing that sort of behavior. Low and behold her disrespect for her husband dropped off completely when they visit. Those women are basically just running an epic **** test and wanting their man to stand up to them.


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## naiveonedave

Bananapeel said:


> While the general gist of this article is fine, there is a major shortfall. Basically, it implies that the man has given away his masculinity to his wife and needs her validation to get it back. If he is truly masculine he doesn't need his wife to give him respect because that will come from within and his wife (and others) will see it and respond accordingly. I know wives that treat their husbands exactly the way this article says I always just shake my head at it because it the man that is letting it happen. I actually have a close friend that was pulling this crap by belittling and insulting her husband at my place, so I told her that she wasn't welcome at my house until she got herself under control because I didn't want my kids witnessing that sort of behavior. Low and behold her disrespect for her husband dropped off completely when they visit. Those women are basically just running an epic **** test and wanting their man to stand up to them.


I totally disagree. When those around you treat you like cr*p, especially your spouse, it is out of your control. Men are being taught to accept this behavior by the same outlets women are being taught it is acceptable. Sure, some fraction of men are strong enough to not put up with it, but that level is not even 50%. Women are being taught to chit test all the time? that is bad enough in and of itself.


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## MJJEAN

A husband does not need to earn his wife's respect.... BWAHAHAHAHAH! Nope, sorry. I don't give respect to anyone who hasn't shown me they deserve it through actions and if they show me they don't deserve it, they don't get it. I am not one to respect someone for merely breathing and being in my presence.


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## sokillme

Bananapeel said:


> While the general gist of this article is fine, there is a major shortfall. Basically, it implies that the man has given away his masculinity to his wife and needs her validation to get it back. If he is truly masculine he doesn't need his wife to give him respect because that will come from within and his wife (and others) will see it and respond accordingly. I know wives that treat their husbands exactly the way this article says I always just shake my head at it because it the man that is letting it happen. I actually have a close friend that was pulling this crap by belittling and insulting her husband at my place, so I told her that she wasn't welcome at my house until she got herself under control because I didn't want my kids witnessing that sort of behavior. Low and behold her disrespect for her husband dropped off completely when they visit. Those women are basically just running an epic **** test and wanting their man to stand up to them.


100% agree. Never had this problem in my adult life. That is because if anyone treats me without respect they get called on it, if it continues they are not in my life.


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## Livvie

This had not been my (nearing 50 years) experience in life. I have never been with a man who I could even nicely give a to do list to and expect it was his job to complete. Or tell he was sleeping on the couch!! I understand from this forum that these dynamics do exist, but I have never experienced a man who was willing to jump through any kind of hoops.


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## naiveonedave

MJJEAN said:


> A husband does not need to earn his wife's respect.... BWAHAHAHAHAH! Nope, sorry. I don't give respect to anyone who hasn't shown me they deserve it through actions and if they show me they don't deserve it, they don't get it. I am not one to respect someone for merely breathing and being in my presence.


You are missing the point, if you married him, you should by default have respect for him. Once you said I do, unless he totally does stuff routinely to lose your respect it should not have to be earned any more. the author is talking about a man who is married, who has not done anything significant to cause this lack of respect, but in which he is being totally disrespected. I see it happen all the time.


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## MJJEAN

naiveonedave said:


> You are missing the point, if you married him, you should by default have respect for him. Once you said I do, unless he totally does stuff routinely to lose your respect it should not have to be earned any more. the author is talking about a man who is married, who has not done anything significant to cause this lack of respect, but in which he is being totally disrespected. I see it happen all the time.


I see guys do a boatload of things that cause their women to lose respect for them or to never have had it in the first place and then go crying to whoever will listen that they aren't getting the respect they "deserve", too. A person doesn't have to routinely do anything to lose respect. A one shot deal is often enough.

I think one of the things people here sometimes fail to recognize and factor in to their thinking is that an awful lot of people marry men or women they don't have respect for. Usually due to an accidental pregnancy, an arranged marriage, financial need, or because they've been together for X time and that's what they are expected to do.


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## Slartibartfast

..


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## Ynot

MJJEAN said:


> I think one of the things people here sometimes fail to recognize and factor in to their thinking is that an awful lot of people marry men or women they don't have respect for. Usually due to an accidental pregnancy, an arranged marriage, financial need, or because they've been together for X time and that's what they are expected to do.


That in and of itself is a major problem. I think a marriage or even a committed relationship must be built upon the twin foundations of love and respect. If you are with someone you do not respect as others have said you are a fool. In fact of the two I think respect is probably the more important as far as longevity and resilience of the relationship goes.

I also think the amount of respect we have for someone else is based entirely on whatever our expectations are, regardless of how mundane or extravagant they may be. So someone who highly values education may not respect a factory worker with a GED, even though that factory worker may make multiples more than someone with a PHD.


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## Ynot

naiveonedave said:


> You are missing the point, if you married him, you should by default have respect for him. Once you said I do, unless he totally does stuff routinely to lose your respect it should not have to be earned any more. the author is talking about a man who is married, who has not done anything significant to cause this lack of respect, but in which he is being totally disrespected. I see it happen all the time.


I am a perfect example of this. When we married, I was working a corporate job and moving up the ladder. I had a steady paycheck, benefits, and a career. We had a child shortly thereafter and my ex became a SAHM. I became the sole provider. I hated my job because I wanted to be more involved at home with my wife and my kids and my family. All of which was impossible given the demands of my job. I switched jobs a few time, but still found no satisfaction to my life. I felt like a caged animal. 
Then I almost died and realized that if I wanted something better, I had to create it myself. So I did. I became self employed. For 20 years I made more money than I ever did working for someone else. We bought a bigger house, I improved that house and property with my own two hands. I was there for everything I wanted to be there for as far as my family went. I coached, I attended recitals, tournaments, practices, events, I was there. I still provided for my family. At no time did anyone (other than myself go without. If they needed a car, a new pair of shoes, a dress, a suit - they got it. no questions asked. I took my ex's son by another man and raised him as my own. I paid for vacations. I was the husband and father that I assumed anyone would want.
It wasn't enough. I didn't receive a pay check. I didn't get my benefits paid by someone else. My ex lost respect for me, because I wasn't the corporate success story, wearing expensive suits and playing keeping up with the neighbors. I screwed up and thought family mattered most of all. I guess I wasn't greedy enough.


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## dadstartingover

RESPECT is everything to men. RESPECT is everything to women. He wants it no matter what... She wants to give it, as long as he truly deserves it. One way to determine if he truly deserves it is to put him in situations that demonstrate just how respect-worthy he is. Sh*t tests, in other words. 

Then you find yourself in this no respect spiral. 

Wife tests man. Maybe a little "innocent" jab about his big belly or how the neighbor guy has a much better job than him. Husband responds horribly. Pouting. Emoting. Her words have a surprisingly huge impact on his sense of well being. Wife now respects him less. Jesus, she was just joking around! Man feels more like poop, because dammit... all he wants is respect. Wife has even less respect for him. He is emasculated. Finally, wife realizes what a giant jerk she is and apologizes and promises to do better. The man relaxes and goes back to the behavior that elicits more sh*t tests. The cycle continues.

Most men can't take little jabs their wives dish out. We all want our wife to love us unconditionally and look at us as her hero. When she makes fun of us in public or points out our faults, it's a giant slap. "Haha! Your wife's love is not unconditional after all, loser!" 

So, ladies: chill out with the nagging and testing. Learn to point out positives instead. Pretend he's awesome. 

Men: stop being such p*ssies.


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## naiveonedave

MJJEAN said:


> I see guys do a boatload of things that cause their women to lose respect for them or to never have had it in the first place and then go crying to whoever will listen that they aren't getting the respect they "deserve", too. A person doesn't have to routinely do anything to lose respect. A one shot deal is often enough.
> 
> I think one of the things people here sometimes fail to recognize and factor in to their thinking is that an awful lot of people marry men or women they don't have respect for. Usually due to an accidental pregnancy, an arranged marriage, financial need, or because they've been together for X time and that's what they are expected to do.


Sure guys do stupid stuff, as do women. The juxt of the OP is that you should not lose respect or love for someone for not being perfect. 

however the second paragraph has nothing to do with the OP. that is a crap marriage. the OP is talking about what started out as good marriages.

Of course, as usual, in your opinion, its the guys fault.


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## Buddy400

MJJEAN said:


> A husband does not need to earn his wife's respect.... BWAHAHAHAHAH! Nope, sorry. I don't give respect to anyone who hasn't shown me they deserve it through actions and if they show me they don't deserve it, they don't get it. I am not one to respect someone for merely breathing and being in my presence.


I agree that respect has to be earned, it can not be given.

I'd feel better if it was phrased as "treated with respect", especially around others. Treating your husband with respect should be the default setting until he has shown that he doesn't deserve it. And, then, only in private.


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## Buddy400

dadstartingover said:


> RESPECT is everything to men. RESPECT is everything to women. He wants it no matter what... She wants to give it, as long as he truly deserves it. One way to determine if he truly deserves it is to put him in situations that demonstrate just how respect-worthy he is. Sh*t tests, in other words.
> 
> Then you find yourself in this no respect spiral.
> 
> Wife tests man. Maybe a little "innocent" jab about his big belly or how the neighbor guy has a much better job than him. Husband responds horribly. Pouting. Emoting. Her words have a surprisingly huge impact on his sense of well being. Wife now respects him less. Jesus, she was just joking around! Man feels more like poop, because dammit... all he wants is respect. Wife has even less respect for him. He is emasculated. Finally, wife realizes what a giant jerk she is and apologizes and promises to do better. The man relaxes and goes back to the behavior that elicits more sh*t tests. The cycle continues.
> 
> Most men can't take little jabs their wives dish out. We all want our wife to love us unconditionally and look at us as her hero. When she makes fun of us in public or points out our faults, it's a giant slap. "Haha! Your wife's love is not unconditional after all, loser!"
> 
> So, ladies: chill out with the nagging and testing. Learn to point out positives instead. Pretend he's awesome.
> 
> *Men: stop being such p*ssies*.


Men can't control how their women behave.

They *can*, however, stop being pussies.

So, let's focus on that.


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## naiveonedave

Buddy400 said:


> I agree that respect has to be earned, it can not be given.
> 
> I'd feel better if it was phrased as "treated with respect", especially around others. Treating your husband with respect should be the default setting until he has shown that he doesn't deserve it. And, then, only in private.


I agree, but if your read the OP, there is no reason for there not be respect. It is coming from the assumption that in a good marriage, respect should be a given MJJ basically is ignoring that part of the OP. Of course, in civilized society, even if you lose respect for someone (especially your spouse), there should be no airing of dirty laundry....


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## sokillme

naiveonedave said:


> You are missing the point, if you married him, you should by default have respect for him. Once you said I do, unless he totally does stuff routinely to lose your respect it should not have to be earned any more. the author is talking about a man who is married, who has not done anything significant to cause this lack of respect, but in which he is being totally disrespected. I see it happen all the time.


I don't agree, respect is earned and expected. If you have to tell your wife she should have respect for you you are not doing it right. If you need to expect your wife to respect you, you are not doing it right. 

The man who is married and is being totally disrespected HAS done something significant, he lets it happen. 

One caveat I would make is he better step up and be a man, meaning he is his wife's partner, if he isn't then he doesn't respect himself.


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## naiveonedave

sokillme said:


> I don't agree, respect is earned and expected. If you have to tell your wife she should have respect for you you are not doing it right. If you need to expect your wife to respect you, you are not doing it right.
> 
> The man who is married and is being totally disrespected HAS done something significant, he lets it happen.
> 
> One caveat I would make is he better step up and be a man, meaning he is his wife's partner, if he isn't then he doesn't respect himself.


The point of the author is that there usually isn't anything the guy did or didn't do to get the level of disrespect he is getting. In that case your middle paragraph is WRONG. He probably really doesn't have real options or hasn't been taught what they are. It is just one more example of feminizing men.


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## Buddy400

EllisRedding said:


> So, why do we accept this approach from women? Why is it considered appropriate for a woman to order her husband around, but not the reverse? Why is it normal in our culture for a woman to assign a list of chores to her husband (the “Honey Do List,” we call it), yet we would think a man tyrannical and possibly abusive if he gave his wife her own list of mandatory assignments for the day? "Headed to work, honey. Your chore list is on the fridge." Why do we think nothing of women who sit around complaining to each other about their husbands, even when those very same women would be devastated if their husbands did the same? Why is it acceptable for a woman to kick a man out of his own bed and banish him to the living room like a scolded puppy, while it would be seen as entirely unacceptable for a man to pull the same stunt with his wife? Imagine a wife saying to her girlfriends, “I’m really in the doghouse, girls. My husband made me sleep on the couch last night.” Her friends would probably tell her to call the police and file for divorce.


The above does seem to be true.

If there's a root cause, it's men having the wrong idea about what women really want.


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## Bananapeel

naiveonedave said:


> I totally disagree. When those around you treat you like cr*p, especially your spouse, it is out of your control. Men are being taught to accept this behavior by the same outlets women are being taught it is acceptable. Sure, some fraction of men are strong enough to not put up with it, but that level is not even 50%. Women are being taught to chit test all the time? that is bad enough in and of itself.


How you are treated is out of your control, but how you respond to it isn't. If the men would just not tolerate that from their wives, then the wives wouldn't do it. I sure as heck don't teach my kids to tolerate bad behavior and if they did we'd have a long talk and start the search for their balls. And women aren't being taught to test men this way, it is built into their DNA. As long as you know to look for and recognize it, it is easy to stop early on before it becomes a big problem. The guys I've seen treated poorly were being treated the same way before they were married; maybe not to the same degree but the behavior patterns were there and easily recognized.


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## MovingForward

Ynot said:


> I am a perfect example of this. When we married, I was working a corporate job and moving up the ladder. I had a steady paycheck, benefits, and a career. We had a child shortly thereafter and my ex became a SAHM. I became the sole provider. I hated my job because I wanted to be more involved at home with my wife and my kids and my family. All of which was impossible given the demands of my job. I switched jobs a few time, but still found no satisfaction to my life. I felt like a caged animal.
> Then I almost died and realized that if I wanted something better, I had to create it myself. So I did. I became self employed. For 20 years I made more money than I ever did working for someone else. We bought a bigger house, I improved that house and property with my own two hands. I was there for everything I wanted to be there for as far as my family went. I coached, I attended recitals, tournaments, practices, events, I was there. I still provided for my family. At no time did anyone (other than myself go without. If they needed a car, a new pair of shoes, a dress, a suit - they got it. no questions asked. I took my ex's son by another man and raised him as my own. I paid for vacations. I was the husband and father that I assumed anyone would want.
> It wasn't enough. I didn't receive a pay check. I didn't get my benefits paid by someone else. My ex lost respect for me, because I wasn't the corporate success story, wearing expensive suits and playing keeping up with the neighbors. I screwed up and thought family mattered most of all. I guess I wasn't greedy enough.


I think in some instances there is something else going on, I gradually added and added and added errands, jobs and activities but it was never enough. My XW was a SAHM, after someone time cleaning the house became too much for her so we added a cleaner, then she was trapped so I added part time child care, then she never got out the house so I would come home from work and take over dinner and sorting out the kids and she would go 'relax', then she spent all her time with kids so I also did all the extra curriculum activities solo also, I put them to bed each night and read stories every night after bathing them. Weekends since I was home was 'my time' to spend with the kids and she would shop, lunch with friends and go for beauty treatments, I did Laundry also as she did not have time. Looking back I was a sucker but I just wanted to be a 'good' Husband but she took advantage and was constantly telling me how much she did and how little i did that i started to believe it.


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## Bananapeel

EllisRedding said:


> So, why do we accept this approach from women? Why is it considered appropriate for a woman to order her husband around, but not the reverse? Why is it normal in our culture for a woman to assign a list of chores to her husband (the “Honey Do List,” we call it), yet we would think a man tyrannical and possibly abusive if he gave his wife her own list of mandatory assignments for the day? "Headed to work, honey. Your chore list is on the fridge." Why do we think nothing of women who sit around complaining to each other about their husbands, even when those very same women would be devastated if their husbands did the same? Why is it acceptable for a woman to kick a man out of his own bed and banish him to the living room like a scolded puppy, while it would be seen as entirely unacceptable for a man to pull the same stunt with his wife? Imagine a wife saying to her girlfriends, “I’m really in the doghouse, girls. My husband made me sleep on the couch last night.” Her friends would probably tell her to call the police and file for divorce.


The thing is not all men accept that approach. Not all men accept being ordered around or accept a Honey Do List or accept their wives complaining about them or accept being banished from the bedroom. It all depends on what the man chooses for his pathway. If he is a leader in the relationship then those things just never happen. I know when I was married I never was subjected to this kind of abuse. Actually, when I was married my wife described our relationship as one where I chose the pathway I was going in life and she was invited to come along and join me. When she broke the rules that invitation ended and I divorced her. There was mutual respect in how we spoke to each other for almost all of our time together.


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## MovingForward

Bananapeel said:


> How you are treated is out of your control, but how you respond to it isn't. If the men would just not tolerate that from their wives, then the wives wouldn't do it. I sure as heck don't teach my kids to tolerate bad behavior and if they did we'd have a long talk and start the search for their balls. And women aren't being taught to test men this way, it is built into their DNA. As long as you know to look for and recognize it, it is easy to stop early on before it becomes a big problem. The guys I've seen treated poorly were being treated the same way before they were married; maybe not to the same degree but the behavior patterns were there and easily recognized.


How do you identify the testing, serious question?

I clearly messed up in past and have no intention of going down that road again


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## GusPolinski

Invoking Matt Walsh here?

Dude, I hope you stocked up on ointment.


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## sokillme

naiveonedave said:


> The point of the author is that there usually isn't anything the guy did or didn't do to get the level of disrespect he is getting. In that case your middle paragraph is WRONG. He probably really doesn't have real options or hasn't been taught what they are. It is just one more example of feminizing men.


OK but even if he doesn't know any better still doesn't change the fact that his behavior is wrong. Personally I don't think articles like this, imploring wives to respect their husbands are going to fix the disrespect. Part of the reason they disrespected them is because they are such pushovers. This is a common dynamic but the one who needs to change is the husband not the wife. That is the only thing that will really fix it. The men need to take the power back in their half of the relationship. They need to change their behavior. 

Part of the change is if he is a ****ty husband he needs to do better. I don't blame women who don't respect their husbands when they don't contribute to the team that is their marriage. Look if you treat your wife like she is your Mother don't be surprised when she talks to you like she is your Mother. See this is why I mean by not respecting yourself. My wife is my partner and my friend. She takes care of me at times, but I take care of her. I'll be damned if she has to do all the work around the house. I would be embarrassed. I want to be her provider, I get pleasure and confidence by being just that. That is my mindset as her husband.

Beside that though I grew up around men whose wives talked to them like dogs (actually they spoke to the Dogs better), sadly that was on them because they allowed it. They never made their wives uncomfortable enough that it was easier to stop then continue with that behavior. Also there is thing think were some men think of their wives like they are angles, or think of women as some other species. So because they give them so much power they are afraid to say, don't talk to me like that. 

Finally you are right that a lot of these men have never had father figures in their lives so they struggle with being assertive. They can learn though. It works any kind of bulling works, bulling continues until it gets to painful for it not to continue. You got to stand up. The only one who can really change the dynamic is the one being bullied.

Honestly a big part of the problem is you think he has no options. Their are always options. If you think there are no options no wonder the person acts like they are powerless.


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## sokillme

Bananapeel said:


> The thing is not all men accept that approach. Not all men accept being ordered around or accept a Honey Do List or accept their wives complaining about them or accept being banished from the bedroom. It all depends on what the man chooses for his pathway. If he is a leader in the relationship then those things just never happen. I know when I was married I never was subjected to this kind of abuse. Actually, when I was married my wife described our relationship as one where I chose the pathway I was going in life and she was invited to come along and join me. When she broke the rules that invitation ended and I divorced her. There was mutual respect in how we spoke to each other for almost all of our time together.


I very rarely get ordered to do anything. Partly because when I see something that needs doing, I do it.


----------



## Livvie

Bananapeel said:


> EllisRedding said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, why do we accept this approach from women? Why is it considered appropriate for a woman to order her husband around, but not the reverse? Why is it normal in our culture for a woman to assign a list of chores to her husband (the “Honey Do List,” we call it), yet we would think a man tyrannical and possibly abusive if he gave his wife her own list of mandatory assignments for the day? "Headed to work, honey. Your chore list is on the fridge." Why do we think nothing of women who sit around complaining to each other about their husbands, even when those very same women would be devastated if their husbands did the same? Why is it acceptable for a woman to kick a man out of his own bed and banish him to the living room like a scolded puppy, while it would be seen as entirely unacceptable for a man to pull the same stunt with his wife? Imagine a wife saying to her girlfriends, “I’m really in the doghouse, girls. My husband made me sleep on the couch last night.” Her friends would probably tell her to call the police and file for divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is not all men accept that approach. Not all men accept being ordered around or accept a Honey Do List or accept their wives complaining about them or accept being banished from the bedroom. It all depends on what the man chooses for his pathway. If he is a leader in the relationship then those things just never happen. I know when I was married I never was subjected to this kind of abuse. Actually, when I was married my wife described our relationship as one where I chose the pathway I was going in life and she was invited to come along and join me. When she broke the rules that invitation ended and I divorced her. There was mutual respect in how we spoke to each other for almost all of our time together.
Click to expand...

I have seen this as my life experience. Men have been either like you, OR they were not good choices of partner and were in the narcissistic spectrum. **Neither kind** would have stood for the kind of treatment described in the article. That's why the premise doesn't make sense to me. It only happens if a man chooses that kind of woman and stays with her.


----------



## Ynot

MovingForward said:


> I think in some instances there is something else going on, I gradually added and added and added errands, jobs and activities but it was never enough. My XW was a SAHM, after someone time cleaning the house became too much for her so we added a cleaner, then she was trapped so I added part time child care, then she never got out the house so I would come home from work and take over dinner and sorting out the kids and she would go 'relax', then she spent all her time with kids so I also did all the extra curriculum activities solo also, I put them to bed each night and read stories every night after bathing them. Weekends since I was home was 'my time' to spend with the kids and she would shop, lunch with friends and go for beauty treatments, I did Laundry also as she did not have time. Looking back I was a sucker but I just wanted to be a 'good' Husband but she took advantage and was constantly telling me how much she did and how little i did that i started to believe it.


Oh that was very much like me. She was stressed with how much she had to do - working and all. So I started taking my daughter to piano and 4H, I even dropped out of my golf league for awhile. Then, in addition, to mowing three acres of grass and maintaining the house, I started to do household chores that she never had time to get to. So while I was working 50 hours a week, hauling my daughter all over the place, doing laundry, doing the dishes, dusting and sweeping, I guess I became boring. For some reason I didn't feel like I had enough energy to go out dancing every Friday and Saturday night. I used to get scolded for ruining her slacks. She would come home, go into our bathroom, change her clothes and throw them over the side of the tub. When I did laundry I would go around a scoop up anything laying around. Apparently I was bad because I didn't read every label on every article of clothing she owned before watching them. Yeah I really started believing I was just a useless piece of crap with no other value in life than being a cuckold to life.


----------



## arbitrator

Livvie said:


> This had not been my (nearing 50 years) experience in life. I have never been with a man who I could even nicely give a to do list to and expect it was his job to complete. Or tell he was sleeping on the couch!! I understand from this forum that these dynamics do exist, but I have never experienced a man who was willing to jump through any kind of hoops.





naiveonedave said:


> You are missing the point, if you married him, you should by default have respect for him. Once you said I do, unless he totally does stuff routinely to lose your respect it should not have to be earned any more. the author is talking about a man who is married, who has not done anything significant to cause this lack of respect, but in which he is being totally disrespected. I see it happen all the time.


*Agreed, up to a point!

Once that the “respect” has been earned and “I do’s” have been duly uttered, from that point forward, if he does anything remotely or legitimately to lose that respect, then so be it!

But I find it rather tough for “respect” not to already be in place prior to a couples nuptials!*


----------



## MovingForward

Ynot said:


> Oh that was very much like me. She was stressed with how much she had to do - working and all. So I started taking my daughter to piano and 4H, I even dropped out of my golf league for awhile. Then, in addition, to mowing three acres of grass and maintaining the house, I started to do household chores that she never had time to get to. So while I was working 50 hours a week, hauling my daughter all over the place, doing laundry, doing the dishes, dusting and sweeping, I guess I became boring. For some reason I didn't feel like I had enough energy to go out dancing every Friday and Saturday night. I used to get scolded for ruining her slacks. She would come home, go into our bathroom, change her clothes and throw them over the side of the tub. When I did laundry I would go around a scoop up anything laying around. Apparently I was bad because I didn't read every label on every article of clothing she owned before watching them. Yeah I really started believing I was just a useless piece of crap with no other value in life than being a cuckold to life.


WOW sounds like we married the same person LOL. I became boring, had no hobbies left, no social life, no real friends anymore as I could never say 'yes' to anything because I had to consult the XW otherwise I was just a 'selfish person who only thinks about myself'

I really got walked all over, the good part know though is I can look back and be happy I am out the dark clouds and not in that haze anymore, It was a slow process though to get to the point of being totally walked all over so need to make sure I never allow that again.


----------



## Ynot

Livvie said:


> I have seen this as my life experience. Men have been either like you, OR they were not good choices of partner and were in the narcissistic spectrum. **Neither kind** would have stood for the kind of treatment described in the article. That's why the premise doesn't make sense to me. It only happens if a man chooses that kind of woman and stays with her.


I would refer you to the story about the frog in the pan of water. They don't realize they are getting boiled alive until it is too late. I really don't think many men or women get married expecting to be respected or to be respecting. I think most assume it is will just happen. But slowly over time, in little drips and dribbles respect can and does erode. A lot of time, as I said previously it based on expectations. And currently people are being fed a whole bunch of unrealistic expectations. In most cases for women to expect more and for men to expect less.


----------



## Ynot

MovingForward said:


> WOW sounds like we married the same person LOL. I became boring, had no hobbies left, no social life, no real friends anymore as I could never say 'yes' to anything because I had to consult the XW otherwise I was just a 'selfish person who only thinks about myself'
> 
> I really got walked all over, the good part know though is I can look back and be happy I am out the dark clouds and not in that haze anymore, It was a slow process though to get to the point of being totally walked all over so need to make sure I never allow that again.


For sure it didn't happen over night. I felt early on as if we were partners taking on the world. We did without early on, so we didn't have to put our kids in day care. We drove older cars and lived in a smaller house. Eventually these were not enough. I always made sure she had the better car than I did, she was after all transporting our children around. We bought a bigger house because she wanted it (we didn't need it) even though I wanted to get out on my own. Over time, as I said else where, in drips and dribbles, a little here and a little there and eventually I was a burned out shell of a man, simply waiting to die (but making sure when and if it did, that she was provided for). I didn't realize how much of myself I had given away, how unhappy I had gotten until I was dismissed without cause because we just grew apart or whatever the reason of the day was she gave our kids


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## MovingForward

Ynot said:


> For sure it didn't happen over night. I felt early on as if we were partners taking on the world. We did without early on, so we didn't have to put our kids in day care. We drove older cars and lived in a smaller house. Eventually these were not enough. I always made sure she had the better car than I did, she was after all transporting our children around. We bought a bigger house because she wanted it (we didn't need it) even though I wanted to get out on my own. Over time, as I said else where, in drips and dribbles, a little here and a little there and eventually I was a burned out shell of a man, simply waiting to die (but making sure when and if it did, that she was provided for). I didn't realize how much of myself I had given away, how unhappy I had gotten until I was dismissed without cause because we just grew apart or whatever the reason of the day was she gave our kids


The similarities are astonishing to me, you could easily be writing my story!!!

This is why I love TAM, human nature is predictable which is why many on here spot issues and infidelity immediately.


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## Bananapeel

MovingForward said:


> How do you identify the testing, serious question?
> 
> I clearly messed up in past and have no intention of going down that road again


Google $hit testing. The secret to passing those tests is #1 recognize them for what they are and #2 don't treat your woman like she is on a pedestal. 



sokillme said:


> I very rarely get ordered to do anything. Partly because when I see something that needs doing, I do it.


Me too, and I don't even usually tell them that I've done anything.


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## marriageontherocks2

TLDR: If you're married to a nasty shrew cheating is understandable.

I moved out of our bedroom and I'm filing for divorce rather than cheat. I don't think cheating is caused by being married to a raving *****. It's a character defect of the person who cheats IMO. Some people just won't do it and look to excuse the behavior away.

If you're married to a woman like the author describes, you can leave her. if you have to constantly analyze whether your wife is ****-testing you it's time to move on anyway. In a healthy relationship the woman shouldn't be constantly **** testing her man like a teenager.


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## MAJDEATH

Agreed, wives should respect and support the leadership role the husband has in the family.


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## ConanHub

Men do sometimes bash wives but I haven't seen it as often and not in mixed company.

Mrs. C has disrespected me in front of others a couple times and it wasn't pleasant when we got home. She also didn't come off well to those she did it in front of.

She has never been anything but positive about me when talking about me or our marriage to others however.

I have also never spoken anything but love and praise for her when spouses are brought up in conversation.

I have seen women belittling their husbands and it always strikes me as pretty self deprecatory because if their husbands are so pathetic, what does that make them?

Far less, I have observed a man belittling his wife while she was present. It was very ugly to watch and I came to her rescue. If he didn't like it, f him.

I stopped watching most TV shows years ago because men were being portrayed as pathetic boobs married to competent and beautiful women.

There is a fatal idea running around that disrespecting your husband is normal and he is somehow pathetic. I really don't know how wide spread it is but have witnessed it several times over the years.

Women who do it are pathetic and so are the men who put up with it.


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## naiveonedave

Bananapeel said:


> How you are treated is out of your control, but how you respond to it isn't. If the men would just not tolerate that from their wives, then the wives wouldn't do it. I sure as heck don't teach my kids to tolerate bad behavior and if they did we'd have a long talk and start the search for their balls. And women aren't being taught to test men this way, it is built into their DNA. As long as you know to look for and recognize it, it is easy to stop early on before it becomes a big problem. The guys I've seen treated poorly were being treated the same way before they were married; maybe not to the same degree but the behavior patterns were there and easily recognized.


I agree with what you wrote with one large caveat - most/many boys and men are being trained that they have to put up with this disrespect and are not taught good methods to deal with it. I also think that women used to regulate this behavior, but now are being taught to not regulate it.


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## farsidejunky

A wife of a friend once criticized him openly at a party, after she was a few drinks in.

My friend was a stand-up guy. Frankly, it pissed me off. I calmly looked at her and I asked her if he was really that bad. In frustration, she said yes.

I then asked her, "What, then, does that say about you that he was the best you could do for marrying?"

You could have heard a pin drop in the middle of that party when I said that to her. I don't know if she ever said two words to me again.

I later found out she had cheated on him with three different guys.

I would never trust somebody who bad-mouthed their spouse in public.


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## Red Sonja

farsidejunky said:


> I would never trust somebody who bad-mouthed their spouse in public.


:iagree:

Whether they are bad-mouthing their spouse or anyone else I look at it as trying to garner ego-kibbles via cutting someone else down. It's bad behavior.


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## Laurentium

In the OP, "respect" doesn't mean "think he's perfect". 

It just means NOT "mock him, berate him, belittle him, and nag him". 

Pretty much everyone should be accorded that kind of respect. 

I think a lot of this comes from the families that people grew up in, and what they learned there about husbands and wives. It gets transmitted down the generations, that mocking and belittling is the right way to handle someone. Just like sexual abuse, those that received it, hand it on in their turn.


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## FrenchFry

Slartibartfast said:


> I think you're reading that (as I did first time) as that disease of a certain current generation in which one is due all things simply for existing. "You must respect me. You must. I live, therefore I deserve respect." Much like the common need to blame someone else for all failures and mistakes and to claim compensation for anything, including acts of nature. Pathetic twits


You mean boomers, right? Let me speak to your manager. :laugh:

I do not believe in unconditional love nor respect. I respect my parents because they made sacrifices to ensure that I am able to get through life well prepared. I respect my boss because she runs a company that provides services and is able to turn that into financially compensating me. 

I respect my husband because... 

It's my husband's job to finish that sentence. It's mine to determine if what he says is true to me. If the two don't mesh, it doesn't matter if my husband needs it--its not going to work. 

In my experience, men get complacent when anything is given to them unconditionally. Sex, respect, clean dishes. I have had far more success in all my relationships when that is earned.


----------



## MJJEAN

Before you start reading, I only read to these comments, so I hope I'm not going into something already said.



Slartibartfast said:


> You see, it's not that you have to respect every slopjawed bad habit and defect. If you can't respect your partner, what the heck are you doing with them in the first place. You're an idiot. If you're partnered with someone you can't respect, someone with whom you can't abide without thinking badly of them, you need to correct that messed up aspect of your life.


Most of the people I have known online and irl are with spouses they don't respect due to children, finances, and/or religious beliefs. These aren't things most people think are easily corrected. 



Ynot said:


> That in and of itself is a major problem. I think a marriage or even a committed relationship must be built upon the twin foundations of love and respect. If you are with someone you do not respect as others have said you are a fool. In fact of the two I think respect is probably the more important as far as longevity and resilience of the relationship goes.
> 
> I also think the amount of respect we have for someone else is based entirely on whatever our expectations are, regardless of how mundane or extravagant they may be. So someone who highly values education may not respect a factory worker with a GED, even though that factory worker may make multiples more than someone with a PHD.


Should be based on love and respect, yes, but should isn't the reality as often as we'd like.



naiveonedave said:


> Sure guys do stupid stuff, as do women. The juxt of the OP is that you should not lose respect or love for someone for not being perfect.
> 
> however the second paragraph has nothing to do with the OP. that is a crap marriage. the OP is talking about what started out as good marriages.
> 
> Of course, as usual, in your opinion, its the guys fault.


I don't think anyone loses respect for a person because said person isn't perfect. Once we reach adulthood, the vast majority of us know humans are imperfect. I think it's about being the wrong kind of imperfect.

A lot of people think those marriages did start out good....enough. Besides, a lot of marriages that did start out good go to complete shyte because of lack of respect.

I don't think everything is the man's fault. The discussion was in regards to men losing respect and most people, man or woman, who lose respect lose it because of something they've done.

Usually, I'll split the blame. Whoever did it, whatever it is, and the fool putting up with it are both at fault.


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## chillymorn69

Everyone deserves respect until they show you otherwise!

Bull $hit tests should be nipped in the bud by calling them on it.

Whts wrong baby I'm not bitting on your little $hit test . I think you need a good @#$* get in the bedroom lets get you straightened out.

Or the door is over there feel free to use it. Can you make me a sandwich on your way out?

Lol I'm in a mood tonight.


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## sokillme

Bananapeel said:


> Google $hit testing. The secret to passing those tests is #1 recognize them for what they are and #2 don't treat your woman like she is on a pedestal.
> 
> 
> 
> Me too, and I don't even usually tell them that I've done anything.


The way to deal with **** tests is to not take the test. Just be above it.


----------



## VladDracul

Ynot said:


> I didn't realize how much of myself I had given away, how unhappy I had gotten until I was dismissed without cause because we just grew apart or whatever the reason of the day was she gave our kids


Are you better off or worse off?


----------



## MAJDEATH

FrenchFry said:


> You mean boomers, right? Let me speak to your manager. :laugh:
> 
> I do not believe in unconditional love nor respect. I respect my parents because they made sacrifices to ensure that I am able to get through life well prepared. I respect my boss because she runs a company that provides services and is able to turn that into financially compensating me.
> 
> I respect my husband because...
> 
> It's my husband's job to finish that sentence. It's mine to determine if what he says is true to me. If the two don't mesh, it doesn't matter if my husband needs it--its not going to work.
> 
> In my experience, men get complacent when anything is given to them unconditionally. Sex, respect, clean dishes. I have had far more success in all my relationships when that is earned.


I humbly disagree with your premise. I agree with Matt - A wife ought to respect her husband because he is her husband, just as he ought to love and honor her because she is his wife. Your husband might “deserve” it when you belittle him or nag him, but you don’t marry someone in order to give them what they deserve. In marriage, you give them what you’ve promised them, even when they aren’t holding up their end of the bargain. And men are notoriously reluctant to share feelings or display vulnerability. Women want them to open up and be vulnerable, but a man will never be vulnerable to someone he doesn't trust will respect him for doing so.

And in your examples FrenchFry, you give respect to folks who have provided you something. Doesn't a husband continuously provide for her needs, cares for her well-being, and protects her both physically and spiritually? Are her parents or her employer gonna be there when she's 80 yrs old and needs help getting out of the bathtub? Or receiving a cancer diagnosis? Or fighting with social security? Or deciding things for a will?


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## EleGirl

It seems to me that this goes both ways. Both men and women want to be respected by their spouse. Love is not enough to hold marriage together. Respect is just as important.

I've known both men and women who treat their spouse with disrespect at home and in public. This is not a problem that only some women have. There are some disrespectful men out there as well.


----------



## RandomDude

EleGirl said:


> It seems to me that this goes both ways. Both men and women want to be respected by their spouse. Love is not enough to hold marriage together. Respect is just as important.
> 
> I've known both men and women who treat their spouse with disrespect at home and in public. This is not a problem that only some women have. There are some disrespectful men out there as well.


If they are disrespected they brought it on themselves, they *tolerate* it, and in doing so, *encourage* it. Thats why the "180" exists for these men in the first place.

Still remember my father losing an argument and pulled the card on my mum, demanding respect. Pffft! It was pathetic. I was on her side, you earn it or you don't.

You don't ask or demand respect. You earn it and in doing so, command respect.


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## EllisRedding

Buddy400 said:


> I agree that respect has to be earned, it can not be given.
> 
> *I'd feel better if it was phrased as "treated with respect", especially around others. Treating your husband with respect should be the default setting until he has shown that he doesn't deserve it. And, then, only in private.*


The bolded is spot in IMO. When it comes to respect (or being treated with respect), if you have lost respect for your SO, keep it private, very simple. There is no reason to go out an publicly bash that person. Maybe the person doesn't deserve respect, but I look at the person doing the bashing as no different. 

Interesting as well, given social media these days, it is so much easier to publicly bash someone without leaving your keyboard. I have seen this several times, where a spouse takes a dig at their SO online via Facebook.

IDK, maybe it is just my experience, but in line with the author, this public bashing seems to be more "acceptable" again the husband. I personally have never witnessed a husband berate/disrespect his W in public (not implying it doesn't happen, just from my POV), but have seen this done the other way around quite a few times (family members, friends, etc...). It is almost like a default setting. There have been times where I have been talking with friends and we maybe briefly talk about something our W did, but that is pretty much the extent of it. My W went out with a group of ladies a few months ago, and when she came home she told me she was astonished how it was basically a husband bash-fest, to the point where she felt uncomfortable since she didn't have anything to add nor would it have been appropriate. Oddly enough, one of the husband's getting bashed I am friends with, and he rarely talks negatively about his W (although he does have plenty of ammo to do so).


----------



## Livvie

MAJDEATH said:


> FrenchFry said:
> 
> 
> 
> You mean boomers, right? Let me speak to your manager.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I do not believe in unconditional love nor respect. I respect my parents because they made sacrifices to ensure that I am able to get through life well prepared. I respect my boss because she runs a company that provides services and is able to turn that into financially compensating me.
> 
> I respect my husband because...
> 
> It's my husband's job to finish that sentence. It's mine to determine if what he says is true to me. If the two don't mesh, it doesn't matter if my husband needs it--its not going to work.
> 
> In my experience, men get complacent when anything is given to them unconditionally. Sex, respect, clean dishes. I have had far more success in all my relationships when that is earned.
> 
> 
> 
> I humbly disagree with your premise. I agree with Matt - A wife ought to respect her husband because he is her husband, just as he ought to love and honor her because she is his wife. Your husband might “deserve” it when you belittle him or nag him, but you don’t marry someone in order to give them what they deserve. In marriage, you give them what you’ve promised them, even when they aren’t holding up their end of the bargain. And men are notoriously reluctant to share feelings or display vulnerability. Women want them to open up and be vulnerable, but a man will never be vulnerable to someone he doesn't trust will respect him for doing so.
> 
> And in your examples FrenchFry, you give respect to folks who have provided you something. Doesn't a husband continuously provide for her needs, cares for her well-being, and protects her both physically and spiritually? Are her parents or her employer gonna be there when she's 80 yrs old and needs help getting out of the bathtub? Or receiving a cancer diagnosis? Or fighting with social security? Or deciding things for a will?
Click to expand...

You can't respect someone who **isn't** holding up their end of the bargain. Not all husbands provide for needs, CARE about their wife, and protect her. You are assuming they do!!! Mine didn't. In the end I had zero respect for him, he showed himself to be an unfeeling, uncaring monster. However, I still didn't do any of those things in the article in the original OP. But I'm just saying, you can't assume all husbands are deserving of respect (or even a continuing relationship).


----------



## samyeagar

Ynot said:


> Oh that was very much like me. She was stressed with how much she had to do - working and all. So I started taking my daughter to piano and 4H, I even dropped out of my golf league for awhile. Then, in addition, to mowing three acres of grass and maintaining the house, I started to do household chores that she never had time to get to. So while I was working 50 hours a week, hauling my daughter all over the place, doing laundry, doing the dishes, dusting and sweeping, I guess I became boring. For some reason I didn't feel like I had enough energy to go out dancing every Friday and Saturday night. I used to get scolded for ruining her slacks. She would come home, go into our bathroom, change her clothes and throw them over the side of the tub. When I did laundry I would go around a scoop up anything laying around. Apparently I was bad because I didn't read every label on every article of clothing she owned before watching them. Yeah I really started believing I was just a useless piece of crap with no other value in life than being a cuckold to life.


I will likely never forget that one particular moment with my SAHM ex wife...oh sure, there had been tons before that I realized were just not normal, and just not right, but this one. This one, I can recall in vivid detail because it was the first time I was fully able to articulate to myself in words exactly what was going to happen in my marriage.

It was around this time of the year. The family had been invited to a holiday gathering with a bunch of other friends and their families. Since I worked an hour and a half away one way, I headed over the the party straight from work to meet up with my wife and everyone. It happened to be on a night where the kids had orchestra, so I just popped in long enough to say hi before heading out to get the kids. As I walked through the door, I was greeted warmly by our friends, offered food and drink and a few minutes of down time after my long daily drive. I politely declined as I turned to head back out the door to get the kids, assuring them I would when I got back. It was then that I overheard my now ex-wife regaling our friends of how she may as well be a single mother. It was right then and there that I decided that when the time was right, I would grant her her wish of being a single mother.


----------



## FrenchFry

MAJDEATH said:


> I humbly disagree with your premise. I agree with Matt - A wife ought to respect her husband because he is her husband, just as he ought to love and honor her because she is his wife. Your husband might “deserve” it when you belittle him or nag him, but you don’t marry someone in order to give them what they deserve. In marriage, you give them what you’ve promised them, even when they aren’t holding up their end of the bargain. And men are notoriously reluctant to share feelings or display vulnerability. Women want them to open up and be vulnerable, but a man will never be vulnerable to someone he doesn't trust will respect him for doing so.


I'm not a nagger nor belittler-not my style and I agree with everyone who finds it cringe-worthy. My methods of conveying disrespect are a bit different.

However, husband/wife is a title. It doesn't, to me, confer anything automatically except _possible_ legal status. If the actions aren't there, what is a title worth? I don't know your vows, I don't know your dynamics but if there is blatant nagging there is an obvious disconnect between expected actions and actual actions. I'm not saying that this is the husbands fault--I'm saying it's a sign that along the way something has been lost.

Not all women want vulnerability from their husbands. Not all women want to share feelings. If this is something that you need in marriage and your partners actions are in opposition, the actions are speaking louder than the words.



> And in your examples FrenchFry, you give respect to folks who have provided you something. Doesn't a husband continuously provide for her needs, cares for her well-being, and protects her both physically and spiritually? Are her parents or her employer gonna be there when she's 80 yrs old and needs help getting out of the bathtub? Or receiving a cancer diagnosis? Or fighting with social security? Or deciding things for a will?


I don't believe the generic title of husband does any of those things, no. I've seen a wide spectrum of husbands and some of them do these things and some don't. It doesn't really matter though if the definitions and expectations don't align. 

For example, one of the reasons I respect my husband is because he figures out a way to follow his passion. This means that there are times where our income has been wildly variable.

Me personally? That's cool. I can provide a baseline and he builds off of that. This works out well for us. Other wives? No respect for not being the steady income, will feel insecure and will lash out. I'm not right in this case, I'm just well matched. I respect my husband because his actions still match my definition of respect.

I don't see how by marriage you can tell a woman she should respect a man if that definition of respect doesn't align. Same with love, honestly.


----------



## TX-SC

I don't see men as any more deserving of respect than women. In that vain, my wife and I both respect each other and act accordingly. The notion that men are the "head of the house" is primarily a biblical argument. My wife and I make decisions together and there are times when she wins and times when I win. It's not a competition, just how life works for us.

I agree with the notion that women should respect their husbands and not put them down in public or at home. I also feel that way about wives too. Men should lift up their wives in public and at home. 

My wife works in a professional setting and has a college degree. She has contributed as much as I have to owning our home and paying our bills. She doesn't just sit on the couch eating bon bons and dishing out advice. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## EleGirl

RandomDude said:


> If they are disrespected they brought it on themselves, they *tolerate* it, and in doing so, *encourage* it. Thats why the "180" exists for these men in the first place.
> 
> Still remember my father losing an argument and pulled the card on my mum, demanding respect. Pffft! It was pathetic. I was on her side, you earn it or you don't.
> 
> You don't ask or demand respect. You earn it and in doing so, command respect.


I agree with you on this. If a person is married to someone who is treating them with disrespect, then they should end the marriage. If they stay, they are allowing part of the problem. You can only be treated with disrespect if you stick around to be disrespected.


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## Talker67

we have some good friends, where over the years she never respected him. it showed up in small ways. A joke here, a put down there, some denied sex when he was horny. Now, him being 65 and them having been married FOREVER, he just left her for another woman. So, YEAH, respect really IS important. You need to stroke each other's egos all thru the marriage.


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## MAJDEATH

I have seen many recent studies that show that respect is the number 1 requirement that husbands need from their wives, by far. Believe in him, submit to his decisions, and place him above all else - including parents, children, neighbors, friends, etc.


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## Livvie

MAJDEATH said:


> I have seen many recent studies that show that respect is the number 1 requirement that husbands need from their wives, by far. Believe in him, submit to his decisions, and place him above all else - including parents, children, neighbors, friends, etc.


The problem with that is that not ALL men act respectfully. If a man is behaving as an abusive ******* to his wife, she should not believe in him and place him above all others. 

Just like we could state that the number one need of a women is to be loved and cherished and found attractive. Well-- if she decides to stop bathing and brushing her teeth, gains 200 pounds, farts constantly like a sailor and becomes mean as a snake, her husband will most likely not have those feelings for and show her those things.


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## Mr. Nail

When This thread started I thought the difference between the two sides was that one side thought respect was the assumed default. respect existed until it was proven unwarranted. The other side thought disrespect was the default assumption. You only respect the person who clearly merits it. 

At this point I'm thinking that, at least in my case, Steady Respect exists where there is a healthy marriage. Where there is respect that comes and goes on a weekly, daily or even hourly schedule, there in an unhealthy marriage, or no marriage at all.


----------



## EleGirl

Talker67 said:


> we have some good friends, where over the years she never respected him. it showed up in small ways. A joke here, a put down there, some denied sex when he was horny. Now, him being 65 and them having been married FOREVER, he just left her for another woman. So, YEAH, respect really IS important. You need to stroke each other's egos all thru the marriage.


And yet, there are plenty of people who treat their spouse with respect and their spouse will still cheat and even leave them.


----------



## marriageontherocks2

ConanHub said:


> Men do sometimes bash wives but I haven't seen it as often and not in mixed company.


My wife always trashed me to her friends any chance she got. Real nasty ****. It's where I learned what she really thought about me. what she told me when we were snuggling on the couch was B.S. what she tells her friends when I'm not around was how she really felt about me and what she really thought about me.

My wife used to bash her best friends boyfriend, then fiance, and her friend never joined in and always defended him to her, never said a bad thing about him in spite of his flaws, (everyone has them). Somehow this bothered my wife, that her friend wouldn't say mean **** about her future husband. Yet my wife persisted, then was shocked when her "best friend" cut her out of the wedding party and her life. When we went to wedding we were seated at the worst table in the place, and my wife still didn't get it. In my wife's mind it was her decision to step away from the friendship.


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## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> Men do sometimes bash wives but I haven't seen it as often and not in mixed company.


A man bashing his wife to other men is at least as bad as him bashing her in mixed company.

I've seen plenty of men who are disrespectful of their wives in mixed company. IMO, it happens at about the same rate for both men and women.


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## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> A man bashing his wife to other men is at least as bad as him bashing her in mixed company.
> 
> I've seen plenty of men who are disrespectful of their wives in mixed company. IMO, it happens at about the same rate for both men and women.


Probably do to our different perspectives. I haven't seen men do it as much but I'm also fairly chivalrous and exert pressure in a group setting.

I actually get more angry when men do it and think it is just sad when women do it.


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## TX-SC

MAJDEATH said:


> I have seen many recent studies that show that respect is the number 1 requirement that husbands need from their wives, by far. Believe in him, submit to his decisions, and place him above all else - including parents, children, neighbors, friends, etc.


You see, the whole "submit to his decisions" thing sounds very sexist to me. Why should my decisions and choices be more important than my wife's choices and decisions?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

TX-SC said:


> You see, the whole "submit to his decisions" thing sounds very sexist to me. Why should my decisions and choices be more important than my wife's choices and decisions?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


They aren't any more or less important. 

A man would be foolish to marry someone who has questionable judgement unless he WANTS to make all the decisions. 

However, in my family, the final decision rests on my shoulders for the majority of decisions, especially financial. 

This isn't the picnic some believe it to be, because when my decisions do not work out, I am still accountable to my wife...especially when she suggested a course of action I did not take.


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## FrenchFry

TX-SC said:


> You see, the whole "submit to his decisions" thing sounds very sexist to me. Why should my decisions and choices be more important than my wife's choices and decisions?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I think again that's where your definition of respect has to line up. So for me, I wouldn't respect my husband if his need for respect included submitting to his decisions. If that was part of his definition, it wouldn't happen. 

His seems to be closer to "Will make decisions based on individual strengths." If my definition of respect didn't include that I could see him as weak and not respect him.


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## Rah

There is no such thing as demanding respect. And honestly its not the big respect issues that break men anyway. Things like public bashing or honey do list are pretty obviously the mans fault. Its the small things that add up over and over again. Not letting you be in on decisions, making other things a priority over the relationship, not regarding the issues that he brings forth. How do you demand a woman fix that? On what grounds? You seriously gonna divorce your wife and mother of your kids because she bought a new refrigerator, even though you both discussed that you'd wait another month?

Its enough to piss you off but not enough to leave. Those are the types of disrespect that slowly burn a guy out.


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## Fozzy

farsidejunky said:


> They aren't any more or less important.
> 
> A man would be foolish to marry someone who has questionable judgement unless he WANTS to make all the decisions.
> 
> However, in my family, the final decision rests on my shoulders for the majority of decisions, especially financial.
> 
> This isn't the picnic some believe it to be, because when my decisions do not work out, I am still accountable to my wife...especially when she suggested a course of action I did not take.


If done correctly, leadership is a burden--not a privilege. A man who views it as his right probably isn't doing it correctly.


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## BradWesley2

MAJDEATH said:


> I have seen many recent studies that show that respect is the number 1 requirement that husbands need from their wives, by far. Believe in him, submit to his decisions, and place him above all else - including parents, children, neighbors, friends, etc.


It must really hurt like hell dragging your knuckles on the ground.


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## farsidejunky

FrenchFry said:


> I think again that's where your definition of respect has to line up. So for me, I wouldn't respect my husband if his need for respect included submitting to his decisions. If that was part of his definition, it wouldn't happen.
> 
> His seems to be closer to "Will make decisions based on individual strengths." If my definition of respect didn't include that I could see him as weak and not respect him.


The latter paragraph is closer to where we are as well.


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## Cletus

Rah said:


> There is no such thing as demanding respect.


Every time I hear of someone demanding respect, I picture some wiseguy in a Soprano's episode. It never makes me respect him more. Neither do I respect any man who thinks his wife must submit to his Y chromosone, unless we're discussing the television remote.


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## naiveonedave

farsidejunky said:


> They aren't any more or less important.
> 
> A man would be foolish to marry someone who has questionable judgement unless he WANTS to make all the decisions.
> 
> However, in my family, the final decision rests on my shoulders for the majority of decisions, especially financial.
> 
> This isn't the picnic some believe it to be, because when my decisions do not work out, I am still accountable to my wife...especially when she suggested a course of action I did not take.


This is similar to my marriage. Most decisions that are made, are usually made by me, with a very large BUT.... I am held accountable to bad ones and usually the best ones are those that require me to take what my W wants/likes into account. 

Example: last weekend plans fell through. Choices: stay home, go out just two of us or find some other couple. Wife clearly didn't want to make decision. Knowing her, she wanted to go out, but would not really let on. Solution: had her call a woman that is our couple friend and see if they wanted to go out and do X. Had I not pushed her to do that, it would not have happened. We'd have stayed home, she'd have been bummed. In essence, I made a decision that met both our needs. I follow this model a lot, learned it out of necessity. Times when I haven't made the decision or I make a decision and totally neglect her needs or input = bad or so/so at best. Bad in that she hems and haws about what decision to make = never decide. If I neglect direct input (I want to go out for dinner and have a nice salad and I choose Chinese = she's mad, rightly so, because there were better options that hit her needs, while still hitting mine).


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## MAJDEATH

Leadership is definitely a burden, and I would think that assigning that role to the H would be very appealing to the Ws. It frees them from having to make those tough decisions for the good of the family.

Of course, if the H really loves his W, he will seek her input prior to making those tough family decisions.


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## FrenchFry

MAJDEATH said:


> Leadership is definitely a burden, and I would think that assigning that role to the H would be very appealing to the Ws. It frees them from having to make those tough decisions for the good of the family.
> 
> Of course, if the H really loves his W, he will seek her input prior to making those tough family decisions.


Not appealing to this W. :smile2:


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## TX-SC

Yeah, sorry he-men, but I just don't see either party as the ONE who's decision is above all others. Why do you guys think a man needs to have the "burden" of being the head of the house? Why do you feel that there needs to be a boss?

There are some areas where my wife excels. Money is one of them. When we buy things, like a refrigerator, she researches the crap out of it, until she feels good about what we need. I will have input, but I will take her recommendations and run with it. There are areas where my knowledge and abilities excel, and in those areas she refers to my judgement. If there are areas where we don't agree, we will either come to terms, or one of us will "take one for the team." 

Where we have dinner or whether we visit friends or stay home is such a non-issue that it really isn't something I would worry over. As for the latter, if either of us just doesn't feel up to going out, we don't. In the former, usually it's a negotiation between us and the kids, or we'll take turns picking the restaurant.

I just can't fathom why you guys feel there has to be an ultimate ruler of the family? This whole "well, I'll take her input into consideration too" stuff sounds so very 1950.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub

BradWesley2 said:


> It must really hurt like hell dragging your knuckles on the ground.


My knuckles can shatter brick and mortar.

I have never hurt for female companions, been successfully with my wife for over 26 years and still attract women 20 years my junior.

If you have a point to the drawbacks of my "knuckle dragging" life, make it.

I require respect and there seems to be no shortage of women willing to give what I require to obtain me as a mate.

I give as good as I expect to receive so it isn't a one way street.

I don't see any drawbacks to being my mate's number one priority.

Knuckle dragger?


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## ConanHub

TX-SC said:


> Yeah, sorry he-men, but I just don't see either party as the ONE who's decision is above all others. Why do you guys think a man needs to have the "burden" of being the head of the house? Why do you feel that there needs to be a boss?
> 
> There are some areas where my wife excels. Money is one of them. When we buy things, like a refrigerator, she researches the crap out of it, until she feels good about what we need. I will have input, but I will take her recommendations and run with it. There are areas where my knowledge and abilities excel, and in those areas she refers to my judgement. If there are areas where we don't agree, we will either come to terms, or one of us will "take one for the team."
> 
> Where we have dinner or whether we visit friends or stay home is such a non-issue that it really isn't something I would worry over. As for the latter, if either of us just doesn't feel up to going out, we don't. In the former, usually it's a negotiation between us and the kids, or we'll take turns picking the restaurant.
> 
> I just can't fathom why you guys feel there has to be an ultimate ruler of the family? This whole "well, I'll take her input into consideration too" stuff sounds so very 1950.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


It's is more like the buck stops here. Men who lead well don't believe women are less than men but that husbands need to take responsibility for their families. This is having wives as equal partners and in no way intimates husbands are smarter than their mates.

It means that if someone has a problem with my wife, she will never face it without me not only backing her, but standing in front if anyone steps over the line. 

Anyhow. Every couple is somewhat unique and the details are definitely between them.

I need a wife I can respect but I require and earn respect from my mate.


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## MAJDEATH

BradWesley2 said:


> It must really hurt like hell dragging your knuckles on the ground.


It's not my knuckles dragging


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## chillymorn69

TX-SC said:


> Yeah, sorry he-men, but I just don't see either party as the ONE who's decision is above all others. Why do you guys think a man needs to have the "burden" of being the head of the house? Why do you feel that there needs to be a boss?
> 
> There are some areas where my wife excels. Money is one of them. When we buy things, like a refrigerator, she researches the crap out of it, until she feels good about what we need. I will have input, but I will take her recommendations and run with it. There are areas where my knowledge and abilities excel, and in those areas she refers to my judgement. If there are areas where we don't agree, we will either come to terms, or one of us will "take one for the team."
> 
> Where we have dinner or whether we visit friends or stay home is such a non-issue that it really isn't something I would worry over. As for the latter, if either of us just doesn't feel up to going out, we don't. In the former, usually it's a negotiation between us and the kids, or we'll take turns picking the restaurant.
> 
> I just can't fathom why you guys feel there has to be an ultimate ruler of the family? This whole "well, I'll take her input into consideration too" stuff sounds so very 1950.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


The partner with the better skill set should make the decissions for which the skill sets apply.


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## TX-SC

ConanHub said:


> It's is more like the buck stops here. Men who lead well don't believe women are less than men but that husbands need to take responsibility for their families. This is having wives as equal partners and in no way intimates husbands are smarter than their mates.
> 
> It means that if someone has a problem with my wife, she will never face it without me not only backing her, but standing in front if anyone steps over the line.
> 
> Anyhow. Every couple is somewhat unique and the details are definitely between them.
> 
> I need a wife I can respect but I require and earn respect from my mate.


Of course you should expect respect from your wife. But, let's not confuse respect with some kind of power dynamic. I think both men and women should take responsibility for their family. It's not a male thing or a female thing. And yes, I would absolutely stand up for my wife. I am no slouch and I'm certainly willing to defend my family. But, that's different from saying the man has the ultimate say in the marriage. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## TX-SC

chillymorn69 said:


> The partner with the better skill set should make the decissions for which the skill sets apply.


I certainly agree.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## chillymorn69

The problem is most think they have the better skill set.

If your hooked up with somone like that then sparks will fly


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## TX-SC

chillymorn69 said:


> The problem is most think they have the better skill set.
> 
> If your hooked up with somone like that then sparks will fly


Yeah, I think that comes down to the couple and each person.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## notmyrealname4

/


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## notmyrealname4

/


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## Satya

There's a marked difference between demanding respect and *commanding* respect.

When you see a man commanding respect, he seems to be surrounded with it. 

I believe that the kind of inherent decency (kindness first) expected in this thread is not very representative of society in general, nor many relationships. 

People (general) treat each other poorly and with suspicion unless given reason to do otherwise.

If you're not commanding respect or have strong boundaries, people will not respect you. Or they'll pretend to and backstab.

This is one reason why I simply won't accept disrespect in my life, especially not from a spouse. At the same time, I don't require respect or validation from anyone. They're free to think of me as they will. Nothing they say or do influences my decisions unless I want it to.

Odo is a public official. He has an equal amount of people who like and despise him, kind of like he had in this board, lol. He and I know the judgements flows downward to me, even though many people who dislike him don't know me at all. Hate by association, so be it. But it just confirms to me that many people are incapable of investigating and reaching their own conclusions. 

I sat next to a woman at a town meeting and she had no clue who I was, nor I her. We had a really nice conversation. Then she mingled with some other women she knew and they pointed at me and whispered to her, likely that I was Odo's wife. Well her demeanor changed and I just smiled to myself and thought, "she'll never speak to me again. Shame, we got along well."

I address my respect for Odo in words and actions, and he commands respect in our relationship for the many ways he cares for our family. We have a very strict rule to never tear each other down in public if we're having a bad day. We just don't feel right doing that, anyway. Like @farsidejunky (I think) alluded to previously, I just can't stand watching anyone get torn down by another, so why would I want to behave that way myself? This is the most respectful relationship I've ever had.


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## uhtred

Its is possible to deserve respect and not get it. Its possible to get respect that you don't deserve. Its possible to want respect that you don't deserve, and to not believe you are owed the respect you do deserve. All corners are covered.

The most important respect is internal. If you respect yourself, whether or not other people respect you is a lot less important.


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## Buddy400

naiveonedave said:


> This is similar to my marriage. Most decisions that are made, are usually made by me, with a very large BUT.... I am held accountable to bad ones and usually the best ones are those that require me to take what my W wants/likes into account.
> 
> Example: last weekend plans fell through. Choices: stay home, go out just two of us or find some other couple. Wife clearly didn't want to make decision. Knowing her, she wanted to go out, but would not really let on. Solution: had her call a woman that is our couple friend and see if they wanted to go out and do X. Had I not pushed her to do that, it would not have happened. We'd have stayed home, she'd have been bummed. In essence, I made a decision that met both our needs. I follow this model a lot, learned it out of necessity. Times when I haven't made the decision or I make a decision and totally neglect her needs or input = bad or so/so at best. Bad in that she hems and haws about what decision to make = never decide. If I neglect direct input (I want to go out for dinner and have a nice salad and I choose Chinese = she's mad, rightly so, because there were better options that hit her needs, while still hitting mine).


I'm perfectly willing to give my wife equal say in making decisions.

But, she doesn't want any part of that. She finds making decisions a burden, which seems to be the case more for women than men.

It took me quite a while to figure out that asking what she wanted to do was a burden on her.

So now if I really don't have a preference, I'll say that I don't have a preference but I'll make the decision if she'd like. She almost always wants me to. 

Also, if something needs to be done, I have to do it. I don't like talking on the phone so I'd prefer it if she'd make phones calls. That always irritated her. I figured it was assigning tasks based on individual strengths. So now, as much as I don't like it, I make the calls (unless it's really stupid like scheduling something when she'll be home and I won't).

It's kind of annoying, but it's what must be done apparently.

This is a high earning, very capable, professional women.


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## Buddy400

TX-SC said:


> Yeah, sorry he-men, but I just don't see either party as the ONE who's decision is above all others. Why do you guys think a man needs to have the "burden" of being the head of the house? Why do you feel that there needs to be a boss?
> 
> There are some areas where my wife excels. Money is one of them. When we buy things, like a refrigerator, she researches the crap out of it, until she feels good about what we need. I will have input, but I will take her recommendations and run with it. There are areas where my knowledge and abilities excel, and in those areas she refers to my judgement. If there are areas where we don't agree, we will either come to terms, or one of us will "take one for the team."
> 
> Where we have dinner or whether we visit friends or stay home is such a non-issue that it really isn't something I would worry over. As for the latter, if either of us just doesn't feel up to going out, we don't. In the former, usually it's a negotiation between us and the kids, or we'll take turns picking the restaurant.
> 
> I just can't fathom why you guys feel there has to be an ultimate ruler of the family? This whole "well, I'll take her input into consideration too" stuff sounds so very 1950.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


The problem is that I think a lot of chicks dig it.


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## TX-SC

Buddy400 said:


> The problem is that I think a lot of chicks dig it.


Perhaps some do. If both of you are into it, go for it.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## EllisRedding

OK, so Matt Walsh's "How a Husband can Destroy a Wife" article was just posted. See thread here, should make for a lively conversation 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...orth-implode-your-marriage-one-easy-step.html


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## AVR1962

How I see it, and it might not be the same in every situation, I realize that! Yes, nitpicking can bleeding that love bank but what happened to create the nitpicking? Couples seem fine with each other in the beginning or else they wouldn't be together. So what starts first? Was her needs not being met in some way so she begins with her wants/ desires for the relationship that turn into "demands"? And why are men so attentive in the beginning but then once they get what they want they get comfortable and stop the attentive behavior. Could this be part of what leads to the nit-picking/demanding behavior from females??

I know with my marriage of 24 years I forgave ALOT!!!!!!! I felt like I communicate well. However, the "love bank" was bled dry by a husband who could not meet my needs as far as expressing his feeling and showing his love for me. he instead was chasing after other women and seeking porn. It turned me into a bitter and very hurt person and yes, i am sure I came across with demands and was saw as a nit-picker.


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## SunCMars

@EllisRedding



> So, why do we accept this approach from women? Why is it considered appropriate for a woman to order her husband around, but not the reverse? Why is it normal in our culture for a woman to assign a list of chores to her husband (the “Honey Do List,” we call it), yet we would think a man tyrannical and possibly abusive if he gave his wife her own list of mandatory assignments for the day?


I cannot love this statement enough.
I just cannot.

SunCMars-
The Martian-
........................................................................................................................
Red Dog- does not care. He just wants his ears rubbed, his back stroked. And to be fed.
The Typist- does not care, either. He loves women too much for his own mental health.


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## SunCMars

AVR1962 said:


> How I see it, and it might not be the same in every situation, I realize that! Yes, nitpicking can bleeding that love bank but what happened to create the nitpicking? Couples seem fine with each other in the beginning or else they wouldn't be together. So what starts first? Was her needs not being met in some way so she begins with her wants/ desires for the relationship that turn into "demands"? And why are men so attentive in the beginning but then once they get what they want they get comfortable and stop the attentive behavior. Could this be part of what leads to the nit-picking/demanding behavior from females??
> 
> I know with my marriage of 24 years I forgave ALOT!!!!!!! I felt like I communicate well. However, the "love bank" was bled dry by a husband who could not meet my needs as far as expressing his feeling and showing his love for me. he instead was chasing after other women and seeking porn. It turned me into a bitter and very hurt person and yes, i am sure I came across with demands and was saw as a nit-picker.


Ah, yes Dear.:frown2:

And some of those 'nits', needed huge, long handled pliers to extract, and two men and a dog to assist, to remove. :grin2:


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## naiveonedave

Buddy400 said:


> The problem is that I think a lot of chicks dig it.


I actually think most women are wired this way. You see it even from executives, in my experience.


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## naiveonedave

Buddy400 said:


> I'm perfectly willing to give my wife equal say in making decisions.
> 
> But, she doesn't want any part of that. She finds making decisions a burden, which seems to be the case more for women than men.
> 
> It took me quite a while to figure out that asking what she wanted to do was a burden on her.
> 
> So now if I really don't have a preference, I'll say that I don't have a preference but I'll make the decision if she'd like. She almost always wants me to.
> 
> Also, if something needs to be done, I have to do it. I don't like talking on the phone so I'd prefer it if she'd make phones calls. That always irritated her. I figured it was assigning tasks based on individual strengths. So now, as much as I don't like it, I make the calls (unless it's really stupid like scheduling something when she'll be home and I won't).
> 
> It's kind of annoying, but it's what must be done apparently.
> 
> This is a high earning, very capable, professional women.


this has been my experience in all of my LTRs. Though the phone thing is a wash, probably because my W knows I HATE to be on the phone.


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## FrenchFry

Buddy400 said:


> I'm perfectly willing to give my wife equal say in making decisions.
> 
> But, she doesn't want any part of that. She finds making decisions a burden, which seems to be the case more for women than men.
> 
> It took me quite a while to figure out that asking what she wanted to do was a burden on her.
> 
> So now if I really don't have a preference, I'll say that I don't have a preference but I'll make the decision if she'd like. She almost always wants me to.
> 
> Also, if something needs to be done, I have to do it. I don't like talking on the phone so I'd prefer it if she'd make phones calls. That always irritated her. I figured it was assigning tasks based on individual strengths. So now, as much as I don't like it, I make the calls (unless it's really stupid like scheduling something when she'll be home and I won't).
> 
> It's kind of annoying, but it's what must be done apparently.
> 
> This is a high earning, very capable, professional women.


It would hurt me more that my husband would think of my actions as kind of annoying rather than take care of business. Damn, that would be pretty awful.


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## Buddy400

FrenchFry said:


> It would hurt me more that my husband would think of my actions as kind of annoying rather than take care of business. Damn, that would be pretty awful.


I'm not sure if this is meant as "my husband would think of my actions as kind of annoying instead of him taking _taking_ of business" which I interpret as my wife's refusal to take an equal role in our relationship and dumping most of the responsibilities on me shouldn't be annoying because it's a man's job to "take care of business" (which seems top clash with you otherwise non-gendered role view of relationships).

Or, are you saying that it's a man's job to "take care of business" (i.e. take on the role of decision maker and leader in the marriage) which doesn't seem consistent with you views either.

Or, is it just that I should happily do whatever my wife wants and disregard my own preferences because that's the role of men?

Or, is it that there is nothing a wife could possibly do that should annoy her husband?


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## ABHale

Bananapeel said:


> While the general gist of this article is fine, there is a major shortfall. Basically, it implies that the man has given away his masculinity to his wife and needs her validation to get it back. If he is truly masculine he doesn't need his wife to give him respect because that will come from within and his wife (and others) will see it and respond accordingly. I know wives that treat their husbands exactly the way this article says I always just shake my head at it because it the man that is letting it happen. I actually have a close friend that was pulling this crap by belittling and insulting her husband at my place, so I told her that she wasn't welcome at my house until she got herself under control because I didn't want my kids witnessing that sort of behavior. Low and behold her disrespect for her husband dropped off completely when they visit. Those women are basically just running an epic **** test and wanting their man to stand up to them.


Not at all. You see strong men on this forum brought to their knees by a cheating wife. All of his self respect gone because how she disrespected him.


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## MAJDEATH




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## MAJDEATH




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## MAJDEATH

And my personal favorite:


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## Cletus

ABHale said:


> Not at all. You see strong men on this forum brought to their knees by a cheating wife. All of his self respect gone because how she disrespected him.


How can anyone's self respect be destroyed by another, especially a cheating spouse?


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## FrenchFry

Buddy400 said:


> Or, is it that there is nothing a wife could possibly do that should annoy her husband?


In this case, it is easily avoidable to not annoy you— make phone calls.

I would feel worse letting my husband be annoyed with me over something that is totally doable than any respect I have over him doing something unpleasant.

I’d rather have respect than be taken care of.


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## ABHale

Cletus said:


> How can anyone's self respect be destroyed by another, especially a cheating spouse?


Because to most men it’s just not sex. A cheating wife strikes at his manhood, who he is as a man. She is basically telling him he isn’t good enough to keep her.

In this case it destroys his self worth and self respect as well. Hence them doing the chose me game.


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## Rah

People should do what makes them happy. If you feel like you are the man of your house and want that responsibility and life, get a woman who respects that. Don't apologize for how you feel or explain yourself to somebody who doesn't get it or wants to signal how awesome or strong or open a man he is. Let them live their lives and you just live yours. There are plenty of women out there who want a man to be in charge. Not her boss or her dad but her husband.

The real bomb in this is that husband has no true meaning outside of its legal meaning anymore. It used to suggest leadership, responsibility and family, now its as worthless as the wife title.


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## Cletus

ABHale said:


> Because to most men it’s just not sex. A cheating wife strikes at his manhood, who he is as a man. She is basically telling him he isn’t good enough to keep her.
> 
> In this case it destroys his self worth and self respect as well. Hence them doing the chose me game.


Self worth comes only from inside yourself. It can be neither granted nor rescinded by anyone else.


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## sandcastle

Cletus said:


> Self worth comes only from inside yourself. It can be neither granted nor rescinded by anyone else.


True.

But.

Betrayl can bring even the mightiest of God's to their destruction -on their knees.

Do they get back up again?
Some do , others do not.

Men, women and children.

Betrayed. No need for any of it. 

Those that betray lack ethics, morals and empathy.
How hard is it to do the honorable thing?

Not that hard.


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## ABHale

Cletus said:


> Self worth comes only from inside yourself. It can be neither granted nor rescinded by anyone else.


And for my most now a days self worth comes from the validation of others.


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## Bananapeel

ABHale said:


> Not at all. You see strong men on this forum brought to their knees by a cheating wife. All of his self respect gone because how she disrespected him.


This totally depends on the guy. When my ex wife cheated I didn't look at it as an attack on my masculinity, but rather a character flaw in her. I actually had even more self respect because I took action and got rid of her as quickly as I could, followed by reprioritizing my life so that I'm living exactly the way I want. She tried to attack my masculinity during the divorce and said some things that were an attempt to bring me down but I didn't let it bother me. I just figured she had her demons she had to deal with and the attacks were her way of justifying her poor behavior and rationalizing the consequences.


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