# Update - Open marriage



## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

I've had so many people contact me privately to inquire about the status of my newly opened marriage that I thought I'd post a general update for those interested. 

Short background: 4 1/2 months ago I discovered that my husband was having affair #3 during our 12 year marriage. Rather than leaving or kicking him out, I proposed an open marriage, allowing both him and myself to have extramarital relationships without the secrecy and lying that had characterized his previous actions. The intent in this was to allow us to maintain our household for our children's sake. He accepted and off we went...

So here we are 4 months later. Things are actually going very well.  We worked together to compose a contract, negotiated its terms, finalized and signed it. He has maintained his relationship with the same woman and I have recently established a relationship with a very nice guy in a similar situation. Both of our extramarital partners know and accept the rules within with our relationships exist. The shift to this lifestyle has been interesting - more trying for him than for me, I think. I've been accustomed to the idea of him with someone else for quite awhile, but this was something new for him to have to contend with. 

I certainly wouldn't recommend this for everyone, but for the time being this is what's working for us.


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## steve71 (Feb 5, 2010)

momof3, this is intriguing. Was the alternative to split up, or perhaps you are postponing the parting of the ways for the sake of your kids? I'm in a very vaguely similar set-up - I simply could not contemplate foisting the distress of a break-up on a small child. I think it's worked well - our child is secure, confident, happy with us and does very well at school. That's worth a lot.


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

Thanks mom... Good stuff.

Hope it continues in a good way.
It is interesting.


all the best!!!


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

Steve71 - I think it's a little of both. Right now, it's the alternative to splitting up and putting our kids through a divorce. Is it postponing the inevitable? I'm not sure what will happen when the kids are gone. We've talked about splitting up, we've talked about continuing. For us, the kids come first - it's even in our contract. 

Vino - as always, thanks!


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

Morals aside I would allow my wife to do this way before I would want a divorce!! Lifestyle, kids, home, is so stable and breaking that up dividing assets screw that. I would much rather let her have a booty call once a week.........of course I hope that doesn't ever happen.

Good luck!!


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## publicme (Mar 4, 2010)

Interesting. 

How's your energy in dealing with two serious relationships now? Maybe the new man gives you needed support so it's actually easier to deal with your wandering hubby, either by him directly talking about it with you or by just diverting your attention to fun, energizing things for a while. (like sex


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

OhGeesh said:


> Morals aside I would allow my wife to do this way before I would want a divorce!! Lifestyle, kids, home, is so stable and breaking that up dividing assets screw that. I would much rather let her have a booty call once a week.........of course I hope that doesn't ever happen.


Exactly. Why mess with something that works except for a single aspect? 



publicme said:


> How's your energy in dealing with two serious relationships now? Maybe the new man gives you needed support so it's actually easier to deal with your wandering hubby, either by him directly talking about it with you or by just diverting your attention to fun, energizing things for a while. (like sex


I have a ton of energy to begin with, so that's not really an issue.  Each of them provide me with something very different. The H and I have family commitments, community involvement, and a shared life. We grew up together. We, however, have very little in common in terms of interests, hobbies, opinions, etc. We want different things from life in the long run. In a lot of ways, we have become very different people from when we got married. My secondary partner and I have very similar interests, hobbies, and opinions. In a lot of ways, he fills the voids that have been left by H. The H's girlfriend does the same for him. She provides him with things that I cannot.


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## sunrisehope (Mar 6, 2010)

Very interesting. Hope eveything works out well...


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## DeeKay1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Momof3,

Call me old-fashioned, but, as my mother always used to tell me, "two wrongs don't make a right." So, instead of one of you committing adultery, both of you are.

Also, for your children it's tough enough to learn that their father was "fooling around" on the side. But to learn now that their mother is doing the same, with their father's approval, would mess them up even more.

While your idea may be appealing to some on this forum, I strongly disagree with your idea, both for moral reasons and for the fact that knowledge of your "new arrangement" could really cause psychological issues for your children, not to mention the example that you are setting for them should they find out.

If your children are aware of their father "fooling around," that's one things. If they find out about your new agreement, that's basically teaching them that it's okay (since you both agree that it is) for a husband and wife to not be faithful to their marriage partner. So, it's very likely that, based on their upbringing, your children will perceive adultery as being acceptable in a marriage.

Just my opinion.


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## ICBlueEyes (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm going to have to agree with DeeKay1. While this new arrangement is working for you and your husband, I can't see how it would be more beneficial to your children for you two to stay together AND have significant others on the side. 

It's hard enough for children to cope when one parent has an extramarital affair but when both parents are doing it and are OK with the arrangement... I see lots of therapy in your kids' future.


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

I dunno.... It feels like "judging" just because something does not fit into what somebody tihnks is right.
Divorce rate is higher than 50%, in addition, of the 50% that remains in tact, many people are in difficulty. 
What does THAT teach kids? All that divorce and fighting...That its ok to simply split up the family if things dont go as planned?
(life NEVER goes as planned)
OR stay in a miserable situation so they can REALLY learn how to be nasty to their potantial future spouses.

I dont like making assumptions about how someone raises their kids by way of superficial knowledge.
I dont think many of us are taught much about relationships, what love means, how to communicate. 
When i personally see two people truely open and honest with each other and able to work things out in a way thats beneficial for all... does not matter too much what the outside world thinks, i see that as beautiful and positive.

What the outside world thinks is part of the problem... too many people trying to fit their lives inside the box drawn by others...usually people who love to speak out, or give "opinions" when its not to their standard, while at the same time (many times) struggling with that same standard... ...yep dunno


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## Rey (Mar 9, 2010)

Dear Momof3

my hubby & i swing so we know all about open marriage & how it should work, but its not easy! 

To DeeKay1 & ICBlueEyes- we also have a son & in all honesty its how u raise ur child that would depict how he/ she turns out. we will be completely honest with him when he starts asking questions. I wish my parents were as open about their "secret life" as wut we are...


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

DeeKay1 said:


> Momof3,
> 
> Call me old-fashioned, but, as my mother always used to tell me, "two wrongs don't make a right." So, instead of one of you committing adultery, both of you are.
> 
> ...





ICBlueEyes said:


> I'm going to have to agree with DeeKay1. While this new arrangement is working for you and your husband, I can't see how it would be more beneficial to your children for you two to stay together AND have significant others on the side.
> 
> It's hard enough for children to cope when one parent has an extramarital affair but when both parents are doing it and are OK with the arrangement... I see lots of therapy in your kids' future.


So you'd rather that I would've kicked him out, sent our entire family into chaos, ruined him financially, and certainly caused a great deal of emotional harm? :scratchhead: No thank you. I'd rather maintain a household which works very well and compromise a little. It is beneficial to our children for us to stay together. Marriage for us is more than love - it is a partnership based on commitment to family. We do love each other - that has never been in question - and we accept each other, flaws and all. Can you say the same for your spouse? Does he/she know that no matter what happens you will always support them and accept them for who they are? Please know that I do not say that to be rude or confrontational or to justify my relationship in your moral system - simply to make you consider... 

Our children are very healthy and happy, they excel in school and extracurricular activities, and are completely unaware of our arrangement. What they do know is that they absolutely come first, that we love each other and support each other no matter what, and that their family is safe and secure. They know that we can debate and argue and still come out on the other side without our relationship in shambles. Can your children say the same? Can children in divorced families say the same? I'm sure there are some, but many end up dealing with all type of abandoment issues, blame issues, etc. 



63Vino said:


> I dunno.... It feels like "judging" just because something does not fit into what somebody tihnks is right.
> Divorce rate is higher than 50%, in addition, of the 50% that remains in tact, many people are in difficulty.
> What does THAT teach kids? All that divorce and fighting...That its ok to simply split up the family if things dont go as planned?
> (life NEVER goes as planned)
> ...


Vino - thanks, you rock... :smthumbup:


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## DeeKay1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Quote: Our children are very healthy and happy, they excel in school and extracurricular activities, and are completely unaware of our arrangement. What they do know is that they absolutely come first, that we love each other and support each other no matter what, and that their family is safe and secure.

MomOf3,

In the above quote, you mention that your children are completely unaware of the open marriage arrangement that you and your husband have.

(1) Just curious...why have you chosen to not tell your children of the current arrangement that you and your husband have? Isn't honesty the best policy?  Wouldn't it be best to be right up front with them, perhaps even allowing them to meet each of your outside partners? 

(2) Children are very impressionable, and their parents are their primary role models. With two parents condoning an "open marriage" concept, are you okay with your children adopting that same concept in their future relationships? Why or why not?


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

mo3 I "think" put this (her personal and private) situation out there to "share", give a view into another point of view, a way of dealing with life and the unpredictability of it.. what comes in marriage is not what we expceted at the "I do" point.

With any thread here, the idea is to get multiple points of view on the table so that maybe it will help someone.. not something to be "resolved" to each readers satisfaction. The initial thread said that many people had PMd about the situation and I thought it really open to...openly share with everyone reading.
Im going to go out on a limb and guess that the purpose was NOT to debate whether this is right wrong, immoral, good , bad , whatever.

Every one here has a "point of view" based on life experiences and is 6 million perecent entitled to those and the actions born from them whether someone thinks that right or wrong really is not in the picture.

How bout simply letting the information flow, read, accept alternative points of view... If you dont see it that way im sure no one will be offended, unless there is the need to "right some wrong one sees" which is false.. there is no right or wrong here. only points of view.

This is an open forum and again. this particular thread is not a "debate"

btw.. just as a mother or father may choose NOT to tell a child about the others infidelity in a typical marriage...not informing children of the intimate workings of their relationship DOES not equate to "dishonesty".


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

DeeKay1 said:


> Quote: Our children are very healthy and happy, they excel in school and extracurricular activities, and are completely unaware of our arrangement. What they do know is that they absolutely come first, that we love each other and support each other no matter what, and that their family is safe and secure.
> 
> MomOf3,
> 
> ...


I do find it interesting, however, that you chose to ignore my questions concerning acceptance and stability. These, for me, are the heart of our arrangement. Sex isn't the main issue here, believe it or not. 



63Vino said:


> mo3 I "think" put this (her personal and private) situation out there to "share", give a view into another point of view, a way of dealing with life and the unpredictability of it.. what comes in marriage is not what we expceted at the "I do" point.
> 
> With any thread here, the idea is to get multiple points of view on the table so that maybe it will help someone.. not something to be "resolved" to each readers satisfaction. The initial thread said that many people had PMd about the situation and I thought it really open to...openly share with everyone reading.
> Im going to go out on a limb and guess that the purpose was NOT to debate whether this is right wrong, immoral, good , bad , whatever.
> ...


Well said and spot on, Vino. This was not intended as a debate - simply an update for those who had expressed interest rather than replying to a bunch of PMs. We're all looking for solutions to issues within marriage - this was simply ours.


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## AlexNY (Dec 10, 2009)

DeeKay1 said:


> ..."two wrongs don't make a right." So, instead of one of you committing adultery, both of you are ...


What you think: wrong + wrong =/= right 
Momof3's actual situation: wrong + wrong > catastrophe

She did not ask for this mess. Her husband's inability to remain faithful, not once but _three_ times, left momof3 with only two choices, neither of which is perfect. She had to choose the best of two very bad options:

Option 1: Divorce, with aggravating financial and situational factors which would make it it an even more costly D than most already are
Option 2: Endure the unendurable, and open her marriage.

Right around Christmas when Momof3 first posted here, I told her that an open marriage is like "death by wood chipper". It appears that I was wrong. She was able to endure it. _*Endure*_. Not choose. Not enjoy. Not advocate. Just endure. Her dog husband left her two bad choices. She made the best choice she could for her children.



> Also, for your children it's tough enough to learn that their father was "fooling around" on the side. But to learn now that their mother is doing the same, with their father's approval, would mess them up even more.


Of course it will. _A tiny bit more. _ The alternative was to be raised without a father. Why? The dog husband is unstable and both financially and emotionally dependent on Momof3. Divorce would mean either no father or messed up mental case lives under a bridge father (50% chance of each).

*Her choice was made easier by the fact that she did not have one.*

I have seen very few people on this board putting their children first even when the choices are easy. When the choices are difficult or almost unendurable, the children are often the last consideration.

Momof3, I am relieved that you have been able to make this work. For your own sake, when your kids are in college, kick that dog husband to the curb. If he looses his mind or drowns his sorrow in alcohol, all the better. You have put your life second for long enough.


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

I would seriously and respectfully DISAGREE with that whole "load". 

momof3 is not an idiot and seems a very well educated and intelligent woman.. To assert she does not have options is craaaaap. She could have easily chose to leave the husband or stay in a mismatched relationship, and do what so many others (who seem to be so intent on labeling this) think would have been the "proper" response in their eyes. To me its simply mean to say she was forced into something.. she chose.

She chose what was right for her and her family.. Sure it was precipitated by what happened in life or by H, but.... she still chose.

In addition, to assert that she is not happy and is simply "enduring" this "situation" is a tad PRESUMPTUOUS.

If you asked her... I'm guessing she would tell you straight up.




momof3... I'm interested

Are you happy in this arrangement? Really?

Did you weigh the options of this arrangement and make a choice on what was right for you? Did you discount divorce, staying in a difficult situation?

When the kids are older what do you think you will do?
( you and H)


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

AlexNY said:


> *Her choice was made easier by the fact that she did not have one.*
> 
> I have seen very few people on this board putting their children first even when the choices are easy. When the choices are difficult or almost unendurable, the children are often the last consideration.
> 
> Momof3, I am relieved that you have been able to make this work. For your own sake, when your kids are in college, kick that dog husband to the curb. If he looses his mind or drowns his sorrow in alcohol, all the better. You have put your life second for long enough.


AlexNY - Thanks for your two cents. It is appreciated.  I do, however, feel the need to clarify a few things. Did I have a choice? Certainly. I could have sought a divorce, knowing full well the repercussions of that action as previously discussed in the original thread. I, however, chose not to do so. We are making it work and I must tell you that my husband's behavior has dramatically improved with this arrangement. No lying, no sneaking around, very limited drinking. He's back to being an active part of family life, contributing to the household, etc. I would say that complete acceptance has made a huge difference in our life. 



63Vino said:


> momof3 is not an idiot and seems a very well educated and intelligent woman.. To assert she does not have options is craaaaap. She could have easily chose to leave the husband or stay in a mismatched relationship, and do what so many others (who seem to be so intent on labeling this) think would have been the "proper" response in their eyes. To me its simply mean to say she was forced into something.. she chose.
> 
> She chose what was right for her and her family.. Sure it was precipitated by what happened in life or by H, but.... she still chose.
> 
> ...


Vino - You're right. This was absolutely my choice (see above response). I did weigh the options of every potential choice (staying and no changes; divorce and the subsequent fallout; an open marriage). This was simply the best one for all concerned.

I am happy in this arrangement. If one goes back to read my original post on this thread, you'll see that, I think. When the kids are older, I still have no idea and I'm not sure that I'd even speculate at this point. Will we split up? Will we continue in this pursuit? I don't know... All the options, however, will be considered and weighed and discussed.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Momof3,

I'm glad you came back to update us and especially glad you are happy in this new arrangement. I don't think I could handle it, but I totally agree with you that keeping this discreet as adult issues should be is the right way to go...I actually had the same thought...there are many things such as our sex lives, financial troubles, etc. that children do not and should not be burdened with.


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## DeeKay1 (Mar 3, 2010)

swedish said:


> Momof3,
> 
> I'm glad you came back to update us and especially glad you are happy in this new arrangement. I don't think I could handle it, but I totally agree with you that keeping this discreet as adult issues should be is the right way to go...I actually had the same thought...there are many things such as our sex lives, financial troubles, etc. that children do not and should not be burdened with.


With all due respect Momof3, I believe that you are refusing to look at how destructive your open marriage decision can be to your children; maybe not right now, as it sounds as though they're too young to tell and too young to understand what is going on. But, eventually, they may (and probably will) find out, even if you don't tell them. Things like affairs, open marriages, etc. have a funny way of making their way back to the children, especially during their adolescent years. A parent of one of your children's friends hears about your "arrangement," the friend then hears his/her parents gossiping about it, and next thing you know, the friend tells your son or daughter. Just image how devastating that news can be to a child during their formative years, especially if they hear about it second hand. And, believe me, those things happen. 

Also, is there any guarantee that one of your "lovers" won't "spill the beans" and tell someone (either intentionally or accidentally) that he's having a relationship with you? What if the two of you have a "falling out" and he wants to be nasty by making sure that your entire family knows about it? Is having an open marriage, and the potential of your children finding out about it, really worth the risk?

Further, it's interesting to see the support that you get from many who have posted on this thread. But, consider this: are you getting the support because what you're doing is actually a good and healthy thing for your marriage, or are you getting support because of the "make-up of the audience" who is reading this thread?

Here's an analogy regarding what I mean by "make-up of the audience": 

If you go into New York City and ask 100 baseball fans who the best major league team is, the vast majority will respond by saying "the NY Yankees."

On the other hand, if you go into Boston and ask that same question, the vast majority will say "the Boston Red Sox."

With all due respect to those who are involved in this forum, most of the audience here is made up of individuals who have been in marriages that, to some degree, were unhealty marriages. So, their frame of reference is that of having come from a background of unhealthy relationships. So, the responses you get from this audience of readers is likely to be much different from an audience of readers who have been happily married for several years. So, Momof3, be cautious about getting too encouraged by the responses and support you've gotten on this thread, as you have to consider the background of the audience members who are reading this.

My advice is this: talk to an expert, such as a child or adolescent psychologist who has expertise regarding the psychological effects of parental open marriage on children and adolescents, and see what he/she has to say. Don't take our word on it either way; we're just regular people. With all that's at stake, however, it's certainly worth getting an expert opinion on the matter.


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

Swedish - Thanks so much.  

DeeKay1 - 

There are obviously no guarantees in life. One can plan for possibilities, but you can never prepare for every outcome. We all do the best we can. We have made rules and taken precautions for all the possibilities you list below, but certainly there's always a chance. We did not go into this arrangement lightly or without significant research and planning. It's always possible that something from our past or our present will come back to bite us in the rear, but that's true for all of us, don't you think?

It's obvious that you and I will have to agree to disagree. You will never be able to frame my decision within your moral and ethical restrictions, within your preconceived ideas concerning the institution of marriage. (Though I continue to be interested in the fact that you sidestep my questions concerning acceptance and stability being the most important thing in this situation...) I will never be able to comprehend your need to judge and label another relationship simply because it doesn't fit into your notions of what a marriage should be. 

I do thank you for providing me with some thought-provoking questions. I feel those types of discussion are always beneficial in helping us to see other potentialities. My simple update has now become something it was not intended to be. I did not begin this thread with the desire to debate the issue, but that's what it has turned into and so I will not be responding to this particular debate any further. Sometimes it's right just to let something fade into oblivion...


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

By my definition there is no such thing as an open marriage. A marriage is a closed union of two people. This relationship is an open partnership or an open arrangement. Still a valid marriage in the eyes of the law but not by what I would term as a marriage nor something I would have the remotest interest in participating in. That aside what is best for the children will only be known years into the future and the stakes for them are scarily high. The true detriment or benefit of this arrangement on them can never be gaged against what a divorce would have brought. But you are their parents and must do what you see is fit. My wife and I stayed in the marriage when it crashed and burned for the kids. Something many on the forum would advise against. But it worked for us, we recovered and know it was the best choice we could have made. I agree with DeeKay1 that the chance of exposure to the children is high. Also the possibility that you or your husband will walk from the marriage to commit full time to the BF/GF is likely. So I wouldn't assume this is an arrangement that will stand the test of time. You may have simply let the fox into the hen house. Finally given your husband's philandering past and the presence of four (if not more) sexual organs in the arrangement, introduction of an STD should be considered as a serious possibility. Good luck, I think you're going to need it.


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## DeeKay1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> By my definition there is no such thing as an open marriage. A marriage is a closed union of two people. This relationship is an open partnership or an open arrangement. Still a valid marriage in the eyes of the law but not by what I would term as a marriage nor something I would have the remotest interest in participating in. That aside what is best for the children will only be known years into the future and the stakes for them are scarily high. The true detriment or benefit of this arrangement on them can never be gaged against what a divorce would have brought. But you are their parents and must do what you see is fit. My wife and I stayed in the marriage when it crashed and burned for the kids. Something many on the forum would advise against. But it worked for us, we recovered and know it was the best choice we could have made. I agree with DeeKay1 that the chance of exposure to the children is high. Also the possibility that you or your husband will walk from the marriage to commit full time to the BF/GF is likely. So I wouldn't assume this is an arrangement that will stand the test of time. You may have simply let the fox into the hen house. Finally given your husband's philandering past and the presence of four (if not more) sexual organs in the arrangement, introduction of an STD should be considered as a serious possibility. Good luck, I think you're going to need it.


Well put, Amplexor...

Would a good parent get behind the wheel of a car drunk, with their children in the back seat? Of course not, because they wouldn't want to run the risk of hurting their children. Then why would they intentionally engage in extramarital relationships, when they run the risk of leaving their children with psychological scars, if the children were to become aware of the fact that their parents have an open marriage?


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## 2rr (Feb 21, 2010)

the one without sin should cast first stone


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

Well well,

To attempt a correleation between driving drunk with kid in the car to the *OPINION* that kids would be so harmed IF they learned about the intimate details of their marriage /sexual lives is really realy sad, a stretch and a pathetic exaggeration, simply to attempt to make your opinion popular or more accepted.

This really twisted attempt is probably based on the misconception that everyone agrees (most importantly parents in question) with you that this is wrong AND that it wil harm the kids. You know, somehow i made it though my whole life without every seeing my parents have sex and for all i know there could have been monkeys in their bedroom at night. 
Im pretty confident and its my OPINION that the kids will only learn IF they learn anything that their parents almost divorced. 
Also that instead of divorce mom and dad stayed together and cared for each other and them to keep the family together. They had outside "friends" that helped them cope with the differences that they could not work out themselves. 
Somehow,,, i cant see the irreparable harm, damaged/derranged and mangled minds you keep trying to imply, to the kids.

The question was already answered that mom would support her kids if they ever had decided to pursue a similar life style.
SO it means that THEY dont agreee with you in principle in the first place.... its hard to make a point based on opinion,,, one that is not accepted by all who are listening.

Maybe not a good idea to post so early in the morning when the mind is still foggy, in fact with this kind of pathatic and hopeless response.. you just shouldnt post at all.

You really seem hel bent on "fixing" everyones opinion on this.. you cannot accept something that does not fit into YOUR beliefs. Its bad... really bad and sad... There are other ways.
They are happy "for now", just as many people are in a marriage ...before the fallout and divorce. 
Is it that the horrible SINS of your loved ones or even your own are forcing you to attack everything else you see as unholy in an attempt to make it up to something you struggle to believe in ...in the first place?

good gawd


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

IN addition with the divorce rate at or above 50% the odds being 2:1, anyone who gets married and has kids is probably more in the category of that whole car wreck of an explanation, you put forward.

That is... since it is, with a 2:1 chance of divorce, surely you will be harming and damaging the kids "scarring" them. SO with that, anyone who gets married is guilty of something similar as driving drunk with kids in the car... right?

What data do you have or are you a psychologist with information, which indicates this rate or depth of harm to kids in a marriage such as momof3kids?


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## DeeKay1 (Mar 3, 2010)

63Vino,

First of all, my purpose here is not to try to convince others that I am correct; it is to open the eyes of those out there who think that to have an affair and/or an open marriage poses no psychological risk to the children. Granted, there may be some children for whom it may have no effect whatsoever, but there's plenty of research out there to show that in many cases it does indeed have a profound effect on the children. So, what parent would want to take that risk?

I invite you to go to Google or any other search engine and type in:
How does adultery affect children....or....How do affairs affect children....or.....How does open marriage affect children?

After doing that, if you can tell me that there's nothing whatsoever online to substantiate that affairs, adultery or open marriage are harmful to children, then I'll agree that I was absolutely wrong by making that assumption.

On the other hand, if even one research study or one "expert" indicates that there is even a slight chance that adultery, affairs or open marriage could cause psychological harm to a child, is it fair for a parent to take that risk, no matter how minute that risk might be?

Going back to the analogy that I used in a previous post (that you thought was totally irrelevant): Would a parent get behind the wheel of a car drunk, with their children in the back seat? Probably not, because it might result in injury to their children.

With that said, how would you view a parent who went ahead and drove drunk, with their children in the back seat, yet made it home safely, and when you questioned their judgement the drunk driver said to you, "it was only 10-minute drive and we made it home safely, so what's the big deal?"

Many drunk drivers never get in an accident and no one gets hurt. They are the "lucky ones."

Like many who choose to have an affair, commit adultery or have an open marriage, many never get "found out" by the children or, in some cases, the children adapt fine even after finding out. They, too, are the "lucky ones."

But, unfortunately, in both of the above scenarios, it doesn't always end that way. Either of those scenarios could end up in serious injuries (physical injuries in the case of the drunk driver; psychological injuries in the latter case).

Bottom line: If there's even the slightest chance that the children might be "injured," isnt it selfish for a parent to take that risk?


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

Whatever dude... Im totally convinced.

Have a great day...


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## AlexNY (Dec 10, 2009)

DeeKay1 said:


> ... refusing to look at how destructive your open marriage decision can be to your children...


For argument sake, can you agree that the husband in this case was emotionally and financially unstable to the point where divorce would virtually guarantee that these children would loose access to a functioning father?

If we (temporarily) accept that in this specific case, divorce = unhinged father swirling down the tubes, then the equation is simplified:

1) An open marriage, with substantial risk to the children should they one day find out, or
2) A single parent situation with an absent father who likely tips into self-destructive alcoholism, drug abuse, or whatever.

DeeKay, what would you have done? If there were no "good" choices, which choice seems "less bad" to you?

I hope you can answer honestly what you would do if you had three young children with an unstable partner who was unable to stop cheating but clearly would not survive divorce.


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

Now... where did i leave that burning stake?... darn it.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

AlexNY said:


> For argument sake, can you agree that the husband in this case was emotionally and financially unstable to the point where divorce would virtually guarantee that these children would loose access to a functioning father?
> 
> If we (temporarily) accept that in this specific case, divorce = unhinged father swirling down the tubes, then the equation is simplified:
> 
> ...


I really like this :iagree: Some people are faced with tormenting descions that luckily most of us will NEVER have to experience in our lifetime. I can not judge this Mother for hers, I will not. 

I might, if in her shoes, decide to get separated/divocred on paper & still live under the same roof, until this husband can get himself together to funciton in life. Which would be a testament to her love for her children, even him in this case- maybe too much LOVE. 

I do wonder if those who judge would feel this is Equally as destructive as an "Open marraige" ?


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## SweetiepieMI (Jan 22, 2010)

I just got to say that being so judgemental without knowing anything about their relationship- or day to day life, is not only wrong, but quite idiotic as well. The great thing about being a parent is raising your children the way YOU believe is a responsible and loving way. All anyone can do is TRY. Nobody is perfect and it amazes me how some would like to think they are......
And as for the whole drunk driving thing- you can compare the 2! Eating meat has been proven to affect health in the long run. Are you telling me that you think every parent who feeds their children a chicken nugget is being irresponsible? 
Driving a car releases pollution in the atmosphere which can hurt children. So now every parent who owns a car and drives their children to school is irresponsible?
The main point here, every situation is different. 

Is it something I think i could do personally? I dont think so. Do I think she is a bad mother for choosing this route? Definitely Not. 

Great quote- He(or she) who has not sin, cast the first stone...

something to think about-


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## lovinmama (Mar 10, 2010)

Hi just wondering if you still have sex with him?


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## ICBlueEyes (Jan 27, 2010)

I don't want to condemn anyone for their personal choices and I certainly do not agree with divorce unless there is no other healthy, responsible alternative but I just can't bring myself to agree with this particular choice, especially because there are children involved. 

I do not believe infidelity has any place in a marriage and once it does take place, trust has been lost and the marriage is damaged; not necessarily beyond repair but certainly damaged. And once infidelity takes place repeatedly, it not only becomes an issue of trust but also respect. Clearly your husband does not respect you, your marriage or your children since he continues to cheat. And now you're condoning his behavior by allowing it to happen and taking part in your own adulterous relationship. 

I do, however, agree with you that children do not need to be privy to the inner workings of their parents' sex life but they will someday find out and you need to decide whether or not you are prepared to face the consequences, which could include them losing all respect, faith and trust in you and your husband as parents. 

I don't condone divorce but I do recognize that it is sometimes a necessary evil. I am the product of what some may call a "broken home" and I turned out just fine. In fact, my mother filing for divorce against my father was perhaps the best thing she has ever done for my brother and I because it gave her a chance to escape from an abusive alcoholic who physically, emotionally and verbally battered my mother, and emotionally and verbally abused my brother and I. The divorce also left her free and open to find my step-father, who not only treats her they way she deserves to be treated but has been a real, loving dad to my brother and I. 

I also realize that divorce is not always the best option, especially if there is no abuse on the part of either parent, because it can be a _very_ destructive force in the life of a child, but the possibility of financial ruin is NOT a reason to stay married to someone, especially if it will be healthier for everyone for the marriage to dissolve.

You've said in previous posts that you love your husband still. Does he love you, too? If so, does he love you enough to stop cheating? Does he love you enough to allow you to "close" your marriage again and work on building the strong family foundation your children need?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

SweetiepieMI said:


> Great quote- He(or she) who has not sin, cast the first stone...


You left off the second part of the quote from John 8:1 - 11.

After Jesus told all the people to not punish the adulterous woman for her behavior, he then told her:

"Go and sin no more."

I think the context of the whole excerpt is not about whether the lady they wanted to stone should be left to go about her business unscathed by her behavior, but rather, that it's God's role to make that judgment. Jesus admonishes her to stop behaving badly.


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## SweetiepieMI (Jan 22, 2010)

Exactly my point- not our place to judge- she wasnt asking for opinions, simply updating those who wanted to know....


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## larniegrl (Oct 7, 2009)

Gosh...leave her alone. 

I like that she shared her point of view, and that she is trying to find a way to reconcile what she believes, knows to be true and actual reality. It is a HARD thing to do...there are consequences for her actions...just like there would be if she stayed with him cheating in a closed marriage, or if they divorced. All of those choices have large price tags.


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## DeeKay1 (Mar 3, 2010)

larniegrl said:


> Gosh...leave her alone.
> 
> I like that she shared her point of view, and that she is trying to find a way to reconcile what she believes, knows to be true and actual reality. It is a HARD thing to do...there are consequences for her actions...just like there would be if she stayed with him cheating in a closed marriage, or if they divorced. All of those choices have large price tags.


The points I'm trying to make here have nothing to do with picking on her or anyone else. I realize that she is in a very difficult situation and that there are no easy answers. And, I respect the fact that she's trying to do what's right for her family. It sounds as though she's a very loving mother.

But, my purpose in posting to this thread is this: The open marriage option in this case has seemed to garner support from many of you. That's fine. I'm simply trying to point out that, even though many on this thread support this individual's decision to go with the open marriage model, it is indeed possible that it could have consequences. So, for those reading this thread, you have varying points of view to consider if you are ever faced with the decision of whether or not to adopt an open marriage model. If you're faced with a decision such as this, there are pros and cons to consider, and you have to go with what you think is best based on the information you have.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

My original presumption was that the husband would think it was a great idea until Mom was in a relationship as well - and then he'd freak. Mom indicated that he wriggled a little bit, but came around.

Our ability to claim that we 'know' someone based upon the contents of a online forum are limited. However, across the course of her posts Mom3K leaves the distinct notion that she is intelligent, introspective and puts a premium on the well-being of her kids and maintaining the stability of a nuclear family - with a twist.

As for support, here is what I support; I support what works. I support any model that leaves everyone's self esteem intact and eliminates behaviors and beliefs that are toxic to any relationship. 

For some, the solution is rebuilding the marriage. For others, divorcing with balance, dignity and a commitment to preserving the children's well being is the answer, and for others still, the solution is an alternative outside of the scope a typical marriage or divorce.

I have friends in an open marriage that have outlasted many of the traditional marriages within our circle of friends.

I know of a divorced couple where the dad lives downstairs, and the mom lives upstairs in the same house.

I have a very good friend who can boast of being married for 20 years. Their marriage has little to do with a loving relationship. They have a parenting arrangement for the benefit of their kids and little else.

I've pointed out before, my wife's parents have been married for over 40 years. They are miserable human beings. They inflicted immeasurable damage to both of their children, whom now struggle as adults.

There are no sure things. We do the best we can. It's not about supporting open marriages. It's about wanting outcomes that minimize catastrophic damage to the partners and their children.


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## YasminTiaraMacDonald (Mar 10, 2010)

Its a very interesting. 
all the best!!!


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## steve71 (Feb 5, 2010)

Momof3, please be patient with the debate here - it's producing more light than heat!

DeeKay, I'd like to go back to the general tenor of your contributions. I always read your posts with the great interest because to me it's unusual to find such clear-cut certitudes amidst the swirling flux of marriage and deep relationships. I sense you're like the classical artist, re-affirming established types while I'm more the Impressionist snatching order out of the fleeting moment. 

Anyway, back to open marriages. There are many mansions within that house. The spectacle of fornicators leaping in and out of windows doesn't do justice to the full complexity of the situations which the strategy of open marriage is designed to cope with. Deejo has set things out with impressive clarity in his post above.

I mentioned at the start of this thread that I'm in a broadly similar - but not identical - situation to momof3. I'm fascinated to read of her courageous progress through uncharted territory. Having been obliged to re-invent my own circumstances I can easily understand the magnitude of her undertaking. And, like her, I think it's worth every drop of sweat and every minute of lost sleep in order to sustain a stable, secure loving home environment with both parents present for their children.

DeeKay, you invoke an obligation of honesty to children. I think it's a mistake to expose a child to the undreamt-of complexities of a deeply-distressed adult relationship. Neither I nor my lady have explained our predicament, or its solution, to our child - I can't imagine anything more bewildering. Our child has lived happily and securely in our love and, in fact, is the one glowing success story to emerge from the wreckage of our former relationship. When he's old enough to assimilate the finer nuances I'm sure we'll be glad to talk it out with him. And that won't mean presenting open marriage as a nirvana of unfettered sensual joys!


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## DeeKay1 (Mar 3, 2010)

There are no sure things. We do the best we can. It's not about supporting open marriages. It's about wanting outcomes that minimize catastrophic damage to the partners and their children.[/QUOTE]

DeeJo,

While I respect your post, I do have to disagree with some of what you say. Specifically, in the quote above, you indicate that her choice of the open marriage is a means of "minimizing catastrophic damage to the partners and their children." 

What I think you and many others on this thread are missing is this (as I've repeatedly stated in previous posts): For this couple's three children, the effect of the husband's and wife's agreement to have "outside lovers" is yet to be seen. I believe that their decision is very risky, as neither the husband nor wife know how the children would handle the news of their parents' "arrangement." So, while the "catastrophic damage might be minimized" for now, the jury is still out regarding how it might affect the children down the road, once they find out.

On this forum, there are countless threads about how the betrayed partner is absolutely crushed when they find out their husband or wife is having an affair. Person after person asks the question, "will I ever be able to get over this?" They can't get over the shock of learning that their partner doesn't love them anymore; they have haunting visions of their partner having sex with the other person, etc, etc, etc.

If an adult has trouble dealing with these things, think about how a child or adolescent is going to handle the news that their mother and father are having sex with partners other than their mom or dad.

In my humble opinion, the open marriage "solution" to a problem like this is a "band-aid" remedy. It may work fine for the moment, but its long-term ramifications could be catastrophic to the children. Time will tell.

Now, before some of you start saying that I'm being judgemental and I should "walk in their shoes" before making the statements that I do, I want to go on record as saying that the purpose of my post is not to judge those who have chosen the open marriage.

My purpose is this: if parental decisions might affect the psychological well-being of their children (and right now we don't know the extent to whether or not that will happen -- but there's certainly a chance that it might) then I feel compelled to express my opinion so that both sides of the issue can be presented....especially when, for the most part, her decision to use the open marriage model as a means to address her current marital problems has garnered much support on this thread. I'm simply the "other voice" that I hope you'll listen to, so you have two sides of the issue to consider. I'm not asking that you agree or disagree with what I have to say; I just want to say it.


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## lost2010 (Feb 26, 2010)

63Vino said:


> I dunno.... It feels like "judging" just because something does not fit into what somebody tihnks is right.
> Divorce rate is higher than 50%, in addition, of the 50% that remains in tact, many people are in difficulty.
> What does THAT teach kids? All that divorce and fighting...That its ok to simply split up the family if things dont go as planned?
> (life NEVER goes as planned)
> ...


I agree completely with the above quote. Couldn't have worded it better myself.


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

Oh, I tried. I tried SO hard, but I just can't keep my mouth shut anymore... Forgive the mini-quotes and quote conglomerations below - it just seemed easier... 



ICBlueEyes said:


> I don't want to condemn anyone for their personal choices and I certainly do not agree with divorce unless there is no other healthy, responsible alternative but I just can't bring myself to agree with this particular choice, especially because there are children involved.


I don't believe anyone asked anyone else to agree with or condone my choice. :scratchhead: 



ICBlueEyes said:


> I do not believe infidelity has any place in a marriage and once it does take place, trust has been lost and the marriage is damaged; not necessarily beyond repair but certainly damaged. And once infidelity takes place repeatedly, it not only becomes an issue of trust but also respect. Clearly your husband does not respect you, your marriage or your children since he continues to cheat. And now you're condoning his behavior by allowing it to happen and taking part in your own adulterous relationship.
> You've said in previous posts that you love your husband still. Does he love you, too? If so, does he love you enough to stop cheating? Does he love you enough to allow you to "close" your marriage again and work on building the strong family foundation your children need?


This is not about respect. Pure and simple, this is about knowing my husband and understanding who he fundamentally is. Love him? I do. Love me? He does. I love him *enough* to recognize that this is a part of who he is, to accept who he is *unconditionally*, and *work together* to maintain a happy, stable family situation for our children. 



DeeKay1 said:


> The points I'm trying to make here have nothing to do with picking on her or anyone else. I realize that she is in a very difficult situation and that there are no easy answers.
> 
> So, for those reading this thread, you have varying points of view to consider if you are ever faced with the decision of whether or not to adopt an open marriage model. If you're faced with a decision such as this, there are pros and cons to consider, and you have to go with what you think is best based on the information you have.


Do you understand how difficult this is/was, DeeKay? I have to wonder.... Would you rather that I engage in polygamy? Sure, it's illegal in this country, but it has a biblical basis - a rather strong one I might add.... 

I considered the pros and cons, long and hard. I did not just jump into this head first without planning, discussion, negotiation, etc. This was the best solution based on the information I had/have. Again, I'm not asking anyone to accept or condone it.



Deejo said:


> As for support, here is what I support; I support what works. I support any model that leaves everyone's self esteem intact and eliminates behaviors and beliefs that are toxic to any relationship.
> 
> There are no sure things. We do the best we can. It's not about supporting open marriages. It's about wanting outcomes that minimize catastrophic damage to the partners and their children.


Which was exactly the point of our arrangement for me - it minimized the catastrophe. My children were able to stay in their home, know that mom and dad love them more than anything else, and see compromise, acceptance, and mutual satisfaction. I did not financially, emotionally, or socially ruin my husband (which would have thereby exposed my children to emotional and social ruin). Instead, I provided him with acceptance, unconditional love, and the stability he so desperately needs. This solution is not a sure thing. I don't know if it's a long-term solution, a short-term solution, or what. We're figuring it out as we go - just as most married couples do...



DeeKay1 said:


> What I think you and many others on this thread are missing is this (as I've repeatedly stated in previous posts): For this couple's three children, the effect of the husband's and wife's agreement to have "outside lovers" is yet to be seen. I believe that their decision is very risky, as neither the husband nor wife know how the children would handle the news of their parents' "arrangement." So, while the "catastrophic damage might be minimized" for now, the jury is still out regarding how it might affect the children down the road, once they find out..


Is there the *potential* for damage to my children in this situation? Of course. Is there *certain* damage in the alternate scenario of divorcing my husband and splitting up my family? YES! Without any reservations, I can say yes to that. My choice does minimize the risk of damage, whether you see that or not. 



DeeKay1 said:


> If an adult has trouble dealing with these things, think about how a child or adolescent is going to handle the news that their mother and father are having sex with partners other than their mom or dad.


How much did you know about your parents' sex lives? How much do your children know about your sex life? Like 63Vino, there could've been monkeys involved and I would never have known...



DeeKay1 said:


> My purpose is this: if parental decisions might affect the psychological well-being of their children (and right now we don't know the extent to whether or not that will happen -- but there's certainly a chance that it might) then I feel compelled to express my opinion so that both sides of the issue can be presented....especially when, for the most part, her decision to use the open marriage model as a means to address her current marital problems has garnered much support on this thread. I'm simply the "other voice" that I hope you'll listen to, so you have two sides of the issue to consider. I'm not asking that you agree or disagree with what I have to say; I just want to say it.


This is a decision that MIGHT affect their well-being - you are correct. But, again, divorce and the resulting fall-out will CERTAINLY impact their well-being. In our circumstance, this is the best option - whether you agree or not. Normalcy, stability, and love are maintained. 

Do you imagine that you are the lone voice in the wilderness? Hardly... I'm sure most folks on this forum don't see this as a viable option, a potential solution, or even a good idea. I'm not here to convince anyone, to recruit anyone, and alter anyone's perception. I can only take care of my little corner of the world, of the children which have been entrusted to me, and make the best of every single day. We should all be so fortunate to see each and every "challenge" within our marriages as "opportunities to grow." 

Thanks again to everyone who posted - and I do mean that. Whether you agree or disagree, debate and discussion are good and healthy things. :smthumbup:


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## lost2010 (Feb 26, 2010)

DeeKay1 said:


> Quote: Our children are very healthy and happy, they excel in school and extracurricular activities, and are completely unaware of our arrangement. What they do know is that they absolutely come first, that we love each other and support each other no matter what, and that their family is safe and secure.
> 
> MomOf3,
> 
> ...




Do you tell your kids about your own sexlife with your husband/wife or even SO if unmarried? Telling them you have a man/woman on the side to me would rank with having conversations with them about what positions you like, how often you have it etc. 

What the bigs things that they will pick up on would be like: mom and dad are happy and don't fight which takes away tension that they surely felt. 

I would have dealt with my mom and dad having an open marraige over the bitterness between them (no matter how good parents think they hide it- kids are not stupid, they pick up on your moods and emotions just as well as adults, sometimes better since adults pay les attention to each other than kids do.) 

I highly doubt that they are advertising the fact that they have other people in their lives, flaunting it for all to see.


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## AlexNY (Dec 10, 2009)

Momof3kids said:


> ... Which was exactly the point of our arrangement for me - *it minimized the catastrophe. * My children were able to stay in their home, know that mom and dad love them more than anything else, and see compromise, acceptance, and mutual satisfaction. I did not financially, emotionally, or socially ruin my husband (which would have thereby exposed my children to emotional and social ruin). Instead, I provided him with acceptance, unconditional love, and the stability he so desperately needs.


People got confused by the casual tone of your post. That is what led to all the moralizing and silliness. They thought you were endorsing an open marriage as "the best of all options" rather than "the best of a small number of pretty bad options." I knew better, because I remember your original post.

You put your children's best interest above your own, and found a solution that allowed you to _endure_ so that your children could _prosper_. I cannot tell you how much I admire that. I come from a broken home that left one parent (mom) dysfunctional. There were four boys. We are all in our 40's and none of us has even begun to recover.

Never doubt that your sacrifice is worth it. Divorce is bad, but kids can survive. Divorce that leaves one parent unhinged is a catastrophe that can never be overcome.



> This solution is not a sure thing. I don't know if it's a long-term solution, a short-term solution, or what.


_Are you preparing your exit strategy? _ Mostly that means getting your dog husband on his feet emotionally and financially. The big question is, when you let go of him (as you eventually must), will he collapse?

Good luck.


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## DeeKay1 (Mar 3, 2010)

lost2010 said:


> Do you tell your kids about your own sexlife with your husband/wife or even SO if unmarried? Telling them you have a man/woman on the side to me would rank with having conversations with them about what positions you like, how often you have it etc.
> 
> What the bigs things that they will pick up on would be like: mom and dad are happy and don't fight which takes away tension that they surely felt.
> 
> ...


Lost2010....In response to your post that is quoted above:

The kids will pick up that "mom and dad are happy and don't fight." First of all, "not fighting" doesn't constitute "marital happiness." My children were happy because they knew that my wife and I truly loved one another; not because we ACTED happy or because there was no arguing, but because they sensed a "oneness" or a loving "chemistry" between us.

In an open marriage, I would have to think that the husband and wife, to some degree, lack that "oneness" that children need to see in their parents. So, to say that children of an open marriage would look at their parents and see a "happy" couple, is probably inaccurate. And, as the children grow older, they really begin to "get in" when it comes to understanding the true relationship that exists between their parents.

When you say that you "would have dealt better with your parents having an open marriage over the bitterness between them," you really can't say that with absolute certainty unless you have actually experienced what being the child of an open marriage is. Also, what might have been the "lesser of two evils for you" might be totally different for someone else.

Finally, when you say "I highly doubt that they are advertising the fact that they have other people in their lives, flaunting for all to see," consider this: when someone finds out that their husband or wife "has someone on the side," the betrayed spouse usually doesn't find out about it because their cheating spouse decided to "come clean" and tell their husband or wife. Often, the betrayed spouse finds out about it from an outside source. Unfortunately, some children and adolescents find out that their parent has been "fooling around" from their peers, who hear it from their parents. So, despite the fact that a husband and wife in an open marriage might try their best to keep their "outside relationships" a secret, these things do have a funny way of getting back to the children.

Now, if the child or adolescent does find out about their parents "through the grapevine," they have two issues to deal with instead of one (divorce):
(1) my parents don't love each other any more and
(2) my mom is having sex with men other than my dad... or my dad is having sex with someone other than my mom.

There's an old expression that goes like this: "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig." In other words, you can try to "dress something up" to make it look different than it really is, but in reality it's still the same old original thing. To me, open marriage is just a way of "dressing up" a bad marriage. But even after "dressing it up" it's still a bad marriage.

Children or adolescents are affected by divorce mainly for one reason: they know that their mom and dad don't love each other any more. Granted, there are other elements that are traumatic to the children, such as arguing, financial issues, etc., but the core reason children are affected is because they know that their parents don't love each other any more.

In an open marriage, there might be an absence of arguing or financial issues (the lipstick), but at the core of the matter is still the fact that their mother and father no longer love each other (the pig).

Again, not judging any person or trying to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong; I'm just trying to express my belief that using an open marriage to benefit the children is, at best, a temporary "band-aid" remedy. 

Further, while it may seem as though an open marriage is in the best interests of the children in the short term, the consequences to the children could be enormous over the long term, especially once the children are old enough to mentally process what an open marriage is all about.


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## lost2010 (Feb 26, 2010)

DeeKay- 

QUOTE When you say that you "would have dealt better with your parents having an open marriage over the bitterness between them," you really can't say that with absolute certainty unless you have actually experienced what being the child of an open marriage is. Also, what might have been the "lesser of two evils for you" might be totally different for someone else.END QUOTE

I would agree with you here. I can't look into the unknown, and also me compared to someone else would be two different things. 

QUOTE Again, not judging any person or trying to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong; I'm just trying to express my belief that using an open marriage to benefit the children is, at best, a temporary "band-aid" remedy. END QUOTE

You are more than welcome to express your opinions that is what we are all here for, I also just felt the need to put in my own two cents


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## Islandr808 (Sep 3, 2010)

Open marriage in itself is not putting your children first. PUTTING YOUR CHILDREN FIRST would be to go to therapy, talk to each other more, communication. If you don't have common interests, find a friend who does, not a boyfriend. And what should happen if they find out about your open marriage? If you raised them right, they would lose all respect for you and your husband. I know if my parents had an open marriage, I would break off all contact with them. Completely. You may love your husband, but OBVIOUSLY not enough to try and work on your relationship instead of hopping into bed with another man. I do hope you come to your senses before your kids learn of the atrocious situation they've been put in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calimom82 (Jan 25, 2009)

Momof3 I see nothing wrong with what you are doing as long as you two (grown adults mind you) have agreed on terms and you take care of your children. I had always told my husband that if he ever felt that he was on the verge of cheating to please please please let me know so that we could work something out.

By that I mean agree to some terms. Of course we would completely leave our children out of it and never speak a word of it around each other. As long as your kids are ok, and you and your husband are safe about it, I see nothing wrong with this.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I read most of this thread, it's a very interesting and hot topic. What worries me is not whether or not it's morally right but why you do so very much for others and expect so little in return for yourself? If the open marriage is what you want and it works for you, I think that's great and it's not my relationship so it doesn't matter if it would work for me or not.

In reading your post I'm just struck with how selfish your husband must be. Sure, he might have emotional and financial problems which damage the marriage but three affairs to boot? I don't know how you aren't so angry that you don't punch this man in the face. It seems as if there are no consequences for his horrible behavior either. It's almost as if he's being rewarded for it. I'm left reading this thread thinking you deserve a hell of a lot more...so so very, very much more for yourself.


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## Tru2mself (Sep 3, 2010)

The author of this thread i wanna give you a high five! Instead of letting your husband to get away with his cheating behaviour you give him a treat of his own medicine . Good for you !


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## jharken703 (Sep 4, 2010)

As a man who has been married for almost 20 years, with teenage children I can see how you could get to an open marriage. A lot changes in 20 years. Don't let other posters get you down. It sounds like you are doing the best you can given your circumstances. I am struggling with issues myself and have recently taken up with what I would consider a pretty classic definition mistress and wondering whether to come clean with my wife. I am not sure if she would be upset, and it is not a threat to our marriage, so in some ways discretion seems the best path for now.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Very interesting discussion and I have to say, even with the posters who are "anti-open-marriage", I don't sense any "personal judgment" that the "pro-open marriagers" are crying foul on in this thread.

I think what Deekay wrote is very true and it's one that begs the whole mission statement of TAM forum - what is a healthy marriage and are most of us here in a position to give valid opinions on what is right or wrong in marriage? I know I am not!!!

So. . .read on. . .but nothing here will be advice from me!

My stb-x actually suggested an open marriage a few times. I thought personally the whole idea was "weird." ( I don't know what else to say other than that ). Maybe I was wrong to not entertain that instead of leaving her. She pretty much said, "You can go have sex with whomever you want." A lot of men would have been like, "Cool Beans!!!" but I took it as an insult personally. . .like I was crap to her.

Add to it, the problem was I just didn't know how to do that. . .now that I I am "out and about" being separated/divorcing, I"m like, "Oh yeah, I see how people do that now. . .have lovers." But at the time, it was just foreign to me. . .adultery in any form. Now. . .it's not and I'm sure that's not a good thing.

But I could even see being a lover in this kind of situation with a woman. . .I have my kids. . .I can't sustain a normal relationship right now. . .yeah, something casual like that is appealing.

Let me speak a little as a divorcing father with 3 kids of all different ages. The kids are more adaptable than adults. Really, my parents and her parents have been more devastated by our divorce, soured, embittered, than the kids. There was a slight "hiccup" in our oldest child's academics during the divorce. . .but I can't tell if that was just because in 7th grade things just start to get tougher or if really it was the divorce. 

They are good students and each well-balanced in their own way.

Talking about the kids. . .(because that's what a lot of this discussion is about). . .I do think the "anti-open marriagers" raise a good point. . .if it's such a hot idea. . .why not be open with your kids? This is my lover, Bill, and Dad has his lover, Jill? 

Let's face it - if the divorce rate is 50%, chances are good that one of my 3 kids are going to get divorced in their life, or be in a bad marriage. Would you then tell your kids. . ."Well, just live in an open marriage for the sake of the grandkids?" I am not sure. 

One time, my mom actually did suggest that during the divorce, only not in so many words. . .she said to me on the phone, "I think XXXX should do her own thing and you do your own thing." when dealing with the realities of the break-up to which I replied, "Mom. . .I would like to eventually have a love life again."  I wasn't sure if she was saying between the lines, "Take on a lover." She's a pretty devout Catholic; I doubt it.

Anyway, I respect both sides of this issue, very much. Maybe I was wrong to choose divorce. . .I have to sort of embrace being a bachelor again and let my kids see Dad embracing that, while still trying to be in their life, albeit peripherally now.

I do have to ask one question though of the Pro-Open-Marriagers (and I know it's not a debate) - what happens when you lose your health, one of you? If a disability happens, let's say one of you comes down with cancer and requires extra care and consideration?

Where does that leave your lover?

I am fascinated how such arrangements are "arranged" in that case or are your lives just by the seat of your pants? No judgment. . .just trying to understand.

Thanks for a very good discussion.


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## carolyny476 (Sep 22, 2010)

Momof3kids said:


> I've had so many people contact me privately to inquire about the status of my newly opened marriage that I thought I'd post a general update for those interested.
> 
> Short background: 4 1/2 months ago I discovered that my husband was having affair #3 during our 12 year marriage. Rather than leaving or kicking him out, I proposed an open marriage, allowing both him and myself to have extramarital relationships without the secrecy and lying that had characterized his previous actions. The intent in this was to allow us to maintain our household for our children's sake. He accepted and off we went...
> 
> ...


Thanks you for the post. 

__________________
watch free movies online


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

I thank you for this post also. I have suggested a few times on this board that people consider open marriage. When someone complains about their spouse's extramarital affairs and ask what to do about it, few people consider open marriage. It's a viable solution because it removes the mystery and hurt feelings, plus it keeps the family together.

The main thing though is it keeps the family together. That is important for the children's sense of security. A lot of us feel children of divorce adapt just fine, but most of them don't. Outward appearances are very, very deceiving, and the internal scars may never surface to plain view, but they never stop wanting their parents to get back together. What is more, children of divorce are more likely to divorce. I don't have any statistics on that particular subject, but it is logical conclusion since parents set the examples for nearly everything else. Children of smokers are more apt to become smokers. Children of abusers are more likely to become abusers themselves. And so on, all of which is well documented. I think it safe to say children of divorce learn the non-committal mentality.

What is more than that is the miserable dynamic of second marriages and blended families. While some are successful, they are in the minority because the divorce rate of second marriages is twice that of first marriages due to the baggage brought in by the first marriage (the first wife and the children). The price is extreme emotional turmoil, constant struggles, and instability. It is insane to me that children are carted between two homes several days a week. It would take a couple days of typing to explain the dynamics, the syndromes, and the most common problems that plague second marriages but believe me, it is ugly in most of these cases.

So if you don't want your children HATED, despised, and mistreated by ex-husband's second (or third) wife; if you don't want scornful and constantly intrusive ex-wives disrupting your household (for the women) and turning your children against you (for the men); if you don't want half or more of your income going to spousal and child support; if you don't want to have to raise someone else's disrespectful children; if you don't want continuous costly court battles, then you better do everything you can to keep your marriage intact. I could go on but log on to some of the step parent forums and see for yourself how deplorable it is. When you log on, think about your little darlings and then see how you feel when you read "I can't stand my stepson" or " I hate my stepdaughter" or "BM (meaning the birth mom of the stepchildren) is a stupid b*tch."

(I think I should add I never condone mistreatment, disrespect, or abuse within marriage, and I don't feel people should have to live unhappy, sad, and miserable. There do exist good reasons to divorce. I just don't think infidelity is one of them necessarily, at least not all instances.)


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

The kids want the two people who they love most in the world to live with them until they are ready to leave the nest. Of course they don't want to live with screaming matches every day, but if the parents can get along on at least a friendship basis, the children would no doubt prefer to have both mum and dad there for them, under one roof.

So children might see that there's not a great closeness between their parents and this will probably have some impact on their own relationships later on in life, BUT, would it have as much impact on their mental health as a divorce and seeing mum/dad every second weekend? Possibly having to adapt to 2nd/3rd/more marriages by the parents, marriages that have a great chance of going down the same path.

Not saying I agree or disagree with open marriages, but parents not feeling the love but staying together may be the lesser of two evils at the end of the day, and who are the best judges of that? The parents.


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## dblkman (Jul 14, 2010)

My main issue (besides the possibility of the kids being affected) is where this going longterm? Is this a permanent situation? What happens if one of the two falls in love with their OM or OW? Even if they signed a contract that means absolutely NOTHING when it comes to the heart. On the surface this sounds good but sooner or later someone is going to "crack" and want out! Personally I would rather they split early in a child's life (if it's inevitable) than later. 

I am the youngest of six, my mom and dad divorced when i was 3, i have NO memory of them being together and am pretty much ok since I did not miss what I could not remember. my older bro and sis however did remember and were greatly affected by the affairs.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Susan2010,

Good post, and well thought-out, but remember too. . .with these forums, we are tending to get all the "bad stepparent stories" vs. the good ones.

That being said, I did read a credible divorce book and it said blending families is the most difficult process of the divorce process so I am not ready to disagree or take issue with anything you wrote based on my choice of leaving my wife.

From the tone of your post, you would seem to be "Pro-Open Marriage" (I know it's not that simple) and I respect that. Again, maybe I should have entertained that for the kid's sake.

Are kids not affected by Open Marriages though? I am not sure I could have stood the idea of Mom or Dad having lovers (and oh yeah, they could have kept it secret - NOT!!!!  ).

Are children of Open Marriages more likely to participate in Open Marriages as kids based on your psychological theory of mimicry? I am frankly not sure. If the parent smokes, and then the kids smoke, then I guess the OP here would be more likely to have kids living in a Free Love type of situation also, no?

I think these kind of moral arguments can be really interesting. I have seen prostitutes for instance give all kinds of great arguments for what they do. . .but when a journalist asks if it would be okay if their daughter took up the business, the immediately reply, "NO WAY!"

Maybe the OP would be open to their kids having the "Open Marriage" escape clause in their future marriages some day though. I know the comparison between prostitution and open marriages is kind of spurious.


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

Everyone is so concerned about the effect this will have on the kids. Don't get me wrong; concern for kids is always paramount. When I make decisions, I always try to think of what is best for my kids first, and then what's best for me, my boyfriend, and so on down the line. 

HOWEVER, everyone is approaching this as if Mom & Dad's sex life is an open topic of discussion for the kids. I can't speak for anyone else, but I know growing up, my only exposure to my parents sex life was the ONE night that I had a nightmare, around age 4 or 5 and walked in on them. It was dark, I saw nothing, I heard some breathing and a couple of moans. It was not until years later, after I'd had my own sexual encounter that I went, "OMG, they were having sex!" There was never any discussion of their sex life with me. I knew they had one, obviously, since I exist, but they never provided me with any details of where, when, how, or who. And that's how I prefer it. Even at the age of nearly 32, I don't want to know about my parents sex life, as I'm sure they don't want to know about mine. The same goes with my kids. I will not share details of my sex life with them, nor do I want to know about theirs. The closest my kids will come to knowing anything about their parents sex lives is when I, one day when they are mature enough and old enough to handle it, have to explain to them that their biological father was convicted of rape and that's why I divorced him. 

And yes, I suppose there is that possibility that the kids could find out from another kid who heard it from their parents who heard it from wherever (gee, that old REO Speedwagon song "Take It On The Run" is running through my head now.  ), but honestly, I think that's very slim. My kids are very young, and we live in a very rural area, so perhaps it's different around here, but we don't get things like that going. My best friend is the mother of my youngest son's friend from Pre-K, and she is the only parent that I ever really talk to. Even when I talk to other parents, it's mainly about school related stuff. And IF I ever did get word of another parent doing something like this, I have enough common sense, respect, and intelligence, that if I were going to gossip to my boyfriend about it, I would make darn sure that my kids were far from earshot, probably not even home when we discussed it. I suppose it's possible that I'm smarter than the average person, but I doubt it very much. I think it's safe to think that others would look at this the same way. 

Now, with all that said, I'm neither condoning nor condemning open marriage. My opinion on it extends so far as to say that I know for me, personally, it would not work. I could not share him that way, nor could he share me. I also can say that if my parents or another close family member chose to engage in one, either as one of the marriage partners or one of the outside partners, I would not want to know...but in fairness, I don't want to know other details of their sex lives, either, so it's really nothing specific to the concept of open marriage. 

I think, as with any activity that involves sex, it's up to the people involved to decide what works for them and what they are comfortable with. You might be ok with being tied up and whipped; I might not. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you; doesn't mean there's anything wrong with me. 

I think she's doing the best she can to make an unhappy situation work for the sake of her kids. Will it damage them? Maybe. But then again, the mere act of being born could have done damage. Merely being conceived could do damage. Your mom's decision to feed you broccoli on the day you turned 10 months old could have damaged you. Any and every decision that a parent makes, no matter how simple and innocent, has the capacity to damage the child if it's the wrong decision. All we can do as parents is make the decision that we think will be best for our children and then hope that our decision was right.


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## natcu (Feb 27, 2011)

ICBlueEyes said:


> I do, however, agree with you that children do not need to be privy to the inner workings of their parents' sex life but they will someday find out and you need to decide whether or not you are prepared to face the consequences, which could include them losing all respect, faith and trust in you and your husband as parents.


I thought it might be interesting for you all to here about open marriages from a different perspective. I recently learned that my parents are in an open marriage. I am 20 years old, in college in another state and I have a sister who is still in high school living at home. They have been married for 31 years. 

Do I have a problem with it? Short answer: yes. Mostly because I have set beliefs as to what marriage is and I don't believe that an open marriage is really a marriage. In a way I lost a lot of respect for my parents. They have been so careless about it while my sister is still living at home (note to all open-marriage moms who don't want their kids to know: do not leave a book titled "Open: Love, Sex, and Life in an Open Marriage" on your bedside table.) I worry that it will skew her ideas about love, sex and marriage.

I also understand that it's my parent's business and they have the freedom to handle their relationship whatever way they want and they do not owe my sister or myself any kind of explanation whatsoever. 

Honestly, the most difficult part about it all is that it has become a burden to me. They don't know that I am aware of the open marriage and I can't talk about it with my friends (they all know my parents and I just can't bring myself to share such intimate family details with anyone who knows them). 

It has also completely changed my once fantastic relationship with my dad. I used to be able to sit down and talk with him about anything, and now we barely speak. I want all parents to know that the day your children find out you are in an open marriage it *will* change the way the view you.

I know this website is for marriage support, but I really wanted to post something as the child of an open marriage. When I found out about it I searched the internet high and low for advice, another kid with open marriage parents but I found nothing. 

I'm lucky enough to go to a college that offers counseling services, which was so helpful because I was able to talk to someone who doesn't know my parents at all.


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## calif_hope (Feb 25, 2011)

Momof3kids

No judgment here, just curious.

What if your husband came to you tomorrow morning, and told you that, after much thinking and reflection, he decided to break it off with his mistress because he wanted the two of you to recommit to your marriage in a monogamous relationship. 

And, that question was framed that it was clear that either you agreed or marrage ends.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Hey, this was an old topic but worth reopening and revisiting.

Natcu,

We did visit the subject of kids here and so it was good that you chimed in on this.

Speaking as someone who is in the thick of it, first of all, let me say I am sorry for your pain and the disruption to your family and your relationship.

If you don't mind talking about it, would you help us here?

I have spoke often in a declining, unconsummated marriage you are faced with a path and I respect any choice a spouse makes, assuming all interventions are failing:

A. Divorce
B. Open Marriage

Would have you respected Choice A more in your parents case? Or does the fact they are in an open marriage at least allow both you and your sister some "hope" that they'll find their way back to each other in a "normal" marriage?

I chose path A, Momof3 chose B. I can't exactly fault her but I am interested in how a young adult like you is grappling with it. 

Sometimes in my divorce, my kids were very concerned about what was going to happen to them post-divorce.

My middle son was asking if he would change his last name the other day and I said, "No, I am always your father. That doesn't change." All in all, I guess no regrets but I do still wonder as right now, I am not even in a "healthy" relationship and now I am the other guy.

You can see why sometimes I entertain the idea that Momof3 had the right idea in living an open marriage.

Thanks in advance.


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

My ex (married 20 years) found out when he was 12 that his parents had an open marriage. It devastated him. He even doubted his paternity. (his father WAS his father) But it took a horrible, terrible toll on him emotionally.

He finally got up the courage to try to talk to his parents about it, (he was in his late 30's when he did this) and they simply told him that it was their business, and it didn't concern him. Case closed. Didn't do anything to help him out, lemma tell ya. 

I know that it ate at him the rest of his life. He thought of his mother as a w***e, and his father a b*****d. I don't know if them talking to him would have changed that mind set. He told his sisters, just to find out they knew already. Don't know how they found out...I think the same way he did...through snooping, and coming across something clearly not intended for him. It clearly affected his sisters as well. For some reason, they had NO relationship with their father...somehow they put it in their minds that their father forced their mother into this lifestyle, though there was no proof to that. 

He'd said many, many times that he just wished they had divorced. So here I'd come, and throw out all the different scenarios involving divorce. He SAID he didn't care...he would have had more respect for them if they had divorced. Sure, he couldn't have known that for sure...it's just what he thought. 

He lost total respect for his parents the day he found out, and never had the relationship with them that he should have had. Somehow I doubt that their talking to him would have changed his mind set. Kids can be real sticklers about things. I just know it really messed his head up, and that never went away.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

OhGeesh said:


> Morals aside


I would be curious to know what you mean by that. Do you assume that sex and love among more than 2 is immoral? Based on what? (If we are talking religion, I will hand that one to you.) I cannot understand what would be immoral about an honest and open marriage. Deceit is the main thing that makes cheating immoral.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

natcu said:


> They have been so careless about it while my sister is still living at home (note to all open-marriage moms who don't want their kids to know: do not leave a book titled "Open: Love, Sex, and Life in an Open Marriage" on your bedside table.) I worry that it will skew her ideas about love, sex and marriage.


What makes you think Mom does not want sister to know? 



> I also understand that it's my parent's business and they have the freedom to handle their relationship whatever way they want and they do not owe my sister or myself any kind of explanation whatsoever.


Well as with anything regarding children, there is a right way and a wrong way, in my opinion. 

You have to choose your tack. If the parents feel that they are doing nothing wrong, they can be FULLY open. You just live your life as you feel right with the values that you espouse clearly and carefully explained to your children. Children may not agree with your values. That is the case for ANY value system if you are raising kids to think for themselves. But the children will have the opportunity to respect the thoughtfulness and honesty.

I don't know any people in open marriages. But I do know many people in polyamorist relationships and marriages. For the kids whose parents take the aforementioned tack, the kids just have a bunch of other adults. It is standard operating procedure and not unusual or weird at all. Johnny has 2 Dads. Melissa has one Mom and one Dad. I have a Mom and a Dad and 2 other adults who take care of me living in my house. So what?


If you are going to stay in the closet, stay all the way in the closet! It is so no fair to the children to be, on the one hand secretive and on the other hand not covering tracks. And in my opinion, at no point in any child's life should s/he be asked to fib or cover for a parent. That is just plain dangerous.



> Honestly, the most difficult part about it all is that it has become a burden to me. They don't know that I am aware of the open marriage and I can't talk about it with my friends (they all know my parents and I just can't bring myself to share such intimate family details with anyone who knows them).


I would be curious how you wound up with conservative marriage views when raised by liberal parents. It sounds like more of a case of thoughtless parenting than bad lifestyle choice.


I am sorry this has been a challenge for you.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

VT, it doesn't make logical sense to get married and vow to be faithful to one another as part of those vows (done in church or in a courthouse) and then have sex with others.

I mean, even if both consent to it, it doesn't make it logical unless your argument is that marriages evolve in ways we can't foresee, but then all actions taken are excused and the vows are pointless either way.

So, basically, I don't judge the action of two grown adults, but I question the logic and reasoning of two adults who can't keep their vows to one another, vows they both acknowledged and swore to together.


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

natcu said:


> They have been so careless about it while my sister is still living at home (note to all open-marriage moms who don't want their kids to know: do not leave a book titled "Open: Love, Sex, and Life in an Open Marriage" on your bedside table.) I worry that it will skew her ideas about love, sex and marriage.


I read your entire post. And I respect your opinion, and can see where you are coming from. I can totally understand your position. 

With that said, however, the one part I do have a problem with is the mention of the mom shouldn't leave that book on her bedside table. As a mother, my one sanctuary from my children, the one place where I can truly expect privacy, is my bedroom. If I were to send or allow my children to enter my bedroom, I would expect them to do or get whatever they were in there to do or get and leave the room. I would expect them not to look around at what books I might have in there or anything else. 

Now you don't say under what circumstances your sister came across the book, so I won't say she shouldn't have been snooping, since she may not have been. But I don't think your mother has a responsibility to hide things in her own bedroom. I think her children have a responsibility to respect her privacy. 

And I will say that as a mother, if she sent your sister into her room to get something, she should have given a bit of thought to whether your sister might come across the book in looking for the item. And that figuring out a way to discuss this with your sister and helping her to deal with what she found should have also happened. But I do not agree with your opinion that your mother should have hidden something that was in her bedroom.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Deceit is the main thing that makes cheating immoral.


:scratchhead:

Sorry VT that statement is a paradox to me.


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## natcu (Feb 27, 2011)

Scannerguard said:


> I have spoke often in a declining, unconsummated marriage you are faced with a path and I respect any choice a spouse makes, assuming all interventions are failing:
> 
> A. Divorce
> B. Open Marriage
> ...



I don't think my sister or I would view an open marriage as "hope" for any kind of normalcy. Any hint of "normal" has been blown out of the water at this point. Between the two choices, for me it looks like a lose-lose situation. The only possible way I could have seen it being ok was if they choose open marriage but either were fully honest or 100% secretive about it. 


from atruckersgirl


> With that said, however, the one part I do have a problem with is the mention of the mom shouldn't leave that book on her bedside table. As a mother, my one sanctuary from my children, the one place where I can truly expect privacy, is my bedroom. If I were to send or allow my children to enter my bedroom, I would expect them to do or get whatever they were in there to do or get and leave the room. I would expect them not to look around at what books I might have in there or anything else.


I understand your point but you have to understand that it was never like that in my family. When we were growing up my parent's room was never "off-limits." So for you to tell your child to go retrieve something from your room they might inherently understand to just go and get it without lingering or just looking around. I wasn't snooping, I was just going in to turn off an alarm clock that was on the table when I saw the book.

from vthomeschoolmom


> What makes you think Mom does not want sister to know


I know my parents. We have never in my entire life had an honest conversation about sex, love, or marriage. My mom would never in a million years talk about her own love life with any of us. It's just a matter of me knowing my family dynamics.




> I would be curious how you wound up with conservative marriage views when raised by liberal parents. It sounds like more of a case of thoughtless parenting than bad lifestyle choice.


Well it's funny that you assumed my parents are liberal...I was actually raised in a very conservative household. That being said, my ideas about marriage are entirely my own. I searched and thought for a while about what I believed. My beliefs are not just "what my parents taught me" or what someone else wants me to believe. Maybe that's why they haven't said anything to me, because they absolutely know I would never agree with what they are doing.


I have a question for any open marriage couples out there: If you were keeping the open marriage a secret from your children, would you introduce them to the couple you have been swinging with? Introduce them as friends of the family? Hang out with them all the time?


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

natcu said:


> from atruckersgirl
> 
> 
> I understand your point but you have to understand that it was never like that in my family. When we were growing up my parent's room was never "off-limits." So for you to tell your child to go retrieve something from your room they might inherently understand to just go and get it without lingering or just looking around. I wasn't snooping, I was just going in to turn off an alarm clock that was on the table when I saw the book.


My parents room was never off limits to me, either, nor is mine to my children; but they understand that it is MY room, and that I can have and do whatever I choose to in there, just as I understood that about my parents room. 

I guess the point I was trying to make, and wasn't really being clear enough (and I apologize for that, my mind's been kind of all over today), is that it's not fair for you to expect your mother to hide things from you when they are in her room. I agree that she shouldn't leave it lying on the coffee table or as light reading in the bathroom for a bubble bath, but she shouldn't have to hide things in her room. Just as you should be able to have things out in the open in your own room. And I still might not be saying it the way I mean it, but hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nactu, try to remember that parents are really just taller children. They are flawed and can't possibly be perfect.

I don't defend their choices but they are their choices. Ask yourself this, do you ever focus so intently and strongly on the positives that your parents have done for your sister and you?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> VT, it doesn't make logical sense to get married and vow to be faithful to one another as part of those vows (done in church or in a courthouse) and then have sex with others.


Does to me. If As a matter of fact, what strikes me full on weird, given the vast amount of affairs, worry about affairs and jealousy we see in this board, is the notion that sexual monogamy makes any sense.

Commitment, faithfulness, honesty are the important elements to marriage as far as I am concerned. Genuine respect, close intimacy are far ore important than exclusivity. 

I reject, out of hand, the notion that loving or engaging in intimate acts MUST be reserved between two to be meaningful between the two. I think that is a societal construct to maintain lineage and property rights among the wealthy and middle classes. 




> I mean, even if both consent to it, it doesn't make it logical unless your argument is that marriages evolve in ways we can't foresee, but then all actions taken are excused and the vows are pointless either way.


You assume the base nature of each is to take advantage, thus the need for excuse. I am sure there are examples of bad responsible non-monogamy. But that does not seem to be the norm. 



> So, basically, I don't judge the action of two grown adults, but I question the logic and reasoning of two adults who can't keep their vows to one another, vows they both acknowledged and swore to together.


The only vow that is broken is the "forsaking all others". IIRC we didn't even say those words. People make their own vision of commitment. But it seems to me that if you don't recognize that marriage will evolve, you are doomed to fail anyway.

For me anyway, my commitment to my spouse and his happiness is way more important than the words that we said on one day all those years ago, words I have to look up in a book in our scrapbook if I want to remember exactly what they are.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> Sorry VT that statement is a paradox to me.


Why?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Why?


The elusive triple negative. Deceit amd cheating are both immoral. So is cheating moral if there is no deceit? 
"Hey honey, I'm going out to bang your best friend" No deceit there but I'd be filing on moral grounds if I heard that from my wife. Just fun'n with ya.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Does to me. If As a matter of fact, what strikes me full on weird, given the vast amount of affairs, worry about affairs and jealousy we see in this board, is the notion that sexual monogamy makes any sense.
> 
> Commitment, faithfulness, honesty are the important elements to marriage as far as I am concerned. Genuine respect, close intimacy are far ore important than exclusivity.
> 
> ...


Right. So you know your priorities and shouldn't need marriage at all.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> The elusive triple negative. Deceit amd cheating are both immoral. So is cheating moral if there is no deceit?
> "Hey honey, I'm going out to bang your best friend" No deceit there but I'd be filing on moral grounds if I heard that from my wife. Just fun'n with ya.


Ah. Call me crazy but honesty means a little bit more than just full disclosure.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Right. So you know your priorities and shouldn't need marriage at all.


Why is that? Do you get to decide for other people what marriage means to them? Somehow my commitment is less worthy of a tax break then yours? Who gets to say for alt lifestylers what marriage should or does mean to them?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Why is that? Do you get to decide for other people what marriage means to them? Somehow my commitment is less worthy of a tax break then yours? Who gets to say for alt lifestylers what marriage should or does mean to them?


No but the state does and/or the church if you choose to have a ceremony in the church. A marriage license is a privilege just like a driver's license. I'm of the mindset that any couple should be able to attain one (gay or otherwise) but that they should take the privilege seriously and be bound to what they vow or give up the privilege, or if knowingly don't plan on maintaining those vows, shouldn't apply for the license to begin with.

If you don't like or agree with the civil contract of a marriage license then you should make up your own version of the vows and not apply for one. Then woot! woot! you can design any vows you like but you do not get the privileges afforded to those who take the vows seriously.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> No but the state does and/or the church if you choose to have a ceremony in the church. A marriage license is a privilege just like a driver's license. I'm of the mindset that any couple should be able to attain one (gay or otherwise) but that they should take the privilege seriously and be bound to what they vow or give up the privilege, or if knowingly don't plan on maintaining those vows, shouldn't apply for the license to begin with.


And you get to decide that someone whose lifestyle choices are different than yours are not taking their "license" seriously? In my experience, many of them take it way more seriously than what I see here and in other place in which I witness afu marriages.




> If you don't like or agree with the civil contract of a marriage license then you should make up your own version of the vows and not apply for one.


Right so if you don't like Japanese internment during WWII, you should just leave? Not.



> Then woot! woot! you can design any vows you like but you do not get the privileges afforded to those who take the vows seriously.


Right. Like the people you know nothing about don't.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> And you get to decide that someone whose lifestyle choices are different than yours are not taking their "license" seriously? In my experience, many of them take it way more seriously than what I see here and in other place in which I witness afu marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A marriage license is given between two people so that they can have certain privileges. I don't care about anyone's lifestyle or what they do and don't have to know anything about it. There very well may be reason to adjust the vows and laws concerning a marriage license. For example, I truly believe a couple of the same sex should have the right to get married. The way to do that is to lobby to change the laws rather than take on a privilege you don't plan on following.

I know nothing about gay marriage but I do believe that couples of either sex should be able to have the same privileges.

I'm at a loss to your comparison to Japanese interment during World War II. It seems a bit extreme of a comparison. Do you want to clarify?


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> A marriage license is given between two people so that they can have certain privileges. I don't care about anyone's lifestyle or what they do and don't have to know anything about it. There very well may be reason to adjust the vows and laws concerning a marriage license. For example, I truly believe a couple of the same sex should have the right to get married. The way to do that is to lobby to change the laws rather than take on a privilege you don't plan on following.


Well never been a follower....

Sexual exclusivity is a piece of marriage civil contract that has no place being there, in my opinion. The fact that it is so regularly ignored by cheaters makes the standard of applying it to non-cheaters a waste of time, as far as I am concerned.



> I know nothing about gay marriage but I do believe that couples of either sex should be able to have the same privileges.
> 
> I'm at a loss to your comparison to Japanese interment during World War II. It seems a bit extreme of a comparison. Do you want to clarify?


Extreme examples are useful to put light light in ideas. Law is not absolute but dynamic. Where it is flawed it should be changed. Civil marital contract should not have any business in sexual or romantic matters.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

I just took a look at California's Marriage License and a site that performs civil wedding services and felt a little data might be useful.

Throughout the state no vows are required, though vows are allowed and have no legal standing as far as I can tell.

On his web site one officiant writes
"You can say anything that you want to say that is fitting for your relationship and as long as you both agree to be married somewhere in the wedding program.'​The form asks for names, parents' names, marital status and the like.

I think the OP's position is more than reasonable, but I wouldn't ask anyone to have an open marriage, nor would I tell someone they shouldn't have a conventional (whatever that is) marriage. Those of you proclaiming the advantage of closed marriages, please let us know the details of the tradition/religion you follow. Some protestant clerics will marry gays, most Catholic priests won't, Orthodox Jews don't recognize marriages performed by Reform rabbis, we have made so many distinctions these past few thousand years that I have no idea what conventional is.

Lastly I am very glad an open marriage is working for the OP, even though I don't think it would work for me.


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Sexual exclusivity is a piece of marriage civil contract that has no place being there, in my opinion. The fact that it is so regularly ignored by cheaters makes the standard of applying it to non-cheaters a waste of time, as far as I am concerned.


Why not? Just b/c it's ignored by those who cheat? What about the non-cheaters? In the vows they're asking that someone remain faithful to them only. If someone doesn't have any intention of honoring that promise, they shouldn't make it in the first place. 





> Civil marital contract should not have any business in sexual or romantic matters.


People enter into that "civil marital contract" because of romantic matters. They're in love. They want to get married and spend the rest of their lives together. I know of very few who view the marriage license as a contract. I happen to be one that does, that's why I have no intention of marrying again. It has nothing to do with fidelity. 

If one person isn't going to be enough for you, that needs to be clearly stated ahead of time. The major problem with infidelity is that people won't tell themselves "no". Things aren't going well? The little chickie at work making you feel all manly and good about yourself, and you're struggling at home with your wife? Have an affair. Your husband not meeting your emotional needs? Hook up with that high school boyfriend. 

I sincerely doubt that those who choose fidelity will ever see the viewpoint of those who don't. Fidelity is important to them. It's actually very big. And for those to whom it is important, it in no way means they're hanging on to some outdated, archaical way of thinking.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

ThinkTooMuch, I never actually looked up the legalities concerned with it but you do bring up an interesting point. I'm ignorant in those matters even in my own state.

Marriage becomes more and more a joke, let's face it. Even I, recognize that if I wanted to my husband and I could divorce at any point in time. I should take my vows more seriously myself.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

major misfit said:


> Why not? Just b/c it's ignored by those who cheat? What about the non-cheaters? In the vows they're asking that someone remain faithful to them only. If someone doesn't have any intention of honoring that promise, they shouldn't make it in the first place.


Certainly. My assertion is merely that faithfulness need not be limited to sexual exclusivity. One can remain faithful with sexual and romantic non exclusivity built into that faithfulness.





> If one person isn't going to be enough for you, that needs to be clearly stated ahead of time.


Or you can grow to that decision together over time as is often the case. The breaking of faith comes when one unilaterally goes his or her own way on any core matter such as this one. 




> I sincerely doubt that those who choose fidelity will ever see the viewpoint of those who don't.


I am asserting that there is no breaking of faith. No lack of fidelity.



> Fidelity is important to them. It's actually very big. And for those to whom it is important, it in no way means they're hanging on to some outdated, archaical way of thinking.


I do insofar as they claim that their way of marriage is the only right, proper, useful marriage.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Marriage becomes more and more a joke, let's face it. Even I, recognize that if I wanted to my husband and I could divorce at any point in time. I should take my vows more seriously myself.


I am not here to tell anyone how to run their marriage. I do like to help if I can, given that others bothered to help me when I needed it. 

While I would not describe what DH and I did as "open", it is close enough for this discussion, and people outside the lifestyle would probably not even get the distinction. It does mildly irk me when people try to tell me that their marriage is somehow more serious or valuable than ours. 

DH and I were talking last night. He was trying to figure out, name, put a finger directly on what we have. And what it would take for us to consider leaving each other. We could not even begin to fathom what could transpire to make us want to throw in the towel. We have already been through hard times and won past them. We have shared things that blow our minds. 

There was a woman on another group that I belonged to who asserted we were immoral, cheating ho's regardless of the honesty and trust involved. Her husband was a world class a-hole, would tell her weekly how he regretted marrying her and that she was useless. She was a caterwauling, keening shrew. But she nubbed him. Between the two of them they had nothing but their vows I guess. Maybe it made her feel better about herself to be able to put us down. I just felt sorry for her. But it always seemed to me that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

I have to mostly disagree with you because I think your view is black and white missing the grays that form such a large part of life. More and more I've come to the conclusion that life long marriage doesn't work in a world of long lives and 40+ hour work weeks. Add the explicit sensuality of movies, TV, books, magazines, clothing, adverts, and one has to recognize we are being led by our genitals into a world where buying things is supposed to lead to sex beyond our imagination with partners of overwhelming beauty.

First of all a lot of us marry when we are young and barely know ourselves, let alone the person we want to marry. I certainly did, raging hormones and depression due to the deaths of 6 of my friends in 16 months including one of my closest turned me into a basket case where I was succored and seduced by the woman I later married. As she knew all too well when I asked her to marry a few years later she was a very poor choice (we didn't know she was suffering from borderline personality disorder, she knew she had a problem), but my small head prevailed and we had two wonderful children and a lot of pain over 16 years of living together and marriage.

Having read a bit of history I've learned the current era of romantic marriage is a newcomer - arranged marriages, polygamy in the Old Testament, a brother marrying his brother's widow, marriage as a contract were all far more important and extremely common throughout the world and still being used by large segments of humanity.

As far as marital advice goes we have 1 Corinthian's famous "it is better to marry than to burn". By this standard I should have married Kimiko when I was 14 and she 15, I'm sure our children (half japanese, half eastern european Jew, many times great grandchildren of Aaron, Mose's brother, the first high priest of Judaism) would have been beautiful and bright and I would not have suffered from a near permanent case of blue b***s, very painful when riding ones bike home from an evening of fully clothed necking in her parents' living room.

The Old Testament (first seen in approximately 800 BCE, about when David was King in Jerusalem) and later writings define adultery but make it almost impossible to get a conviction - why? The rabbis - men of learning, devout but not priests - I think the priesthood ended with the destruction of the second temple - knew how strong and irrational desire is. My belief, not an answer is desire is built into the human genome and although we can often restrain ourselves, sometimes we can't even knowing it is a bad decision.

If we want to live by the Bible, why do many women want and think it is OK to be able to work at all occupations outside the house instead of being homemakers, baby factories, etc? How can you pick and choose which Biblical instructions you will fulfill if you believe the Bible is the word of G-d? The internal contradictions within Genesis' two versions of Adam and Eve alone are enormous. I think if one believes the Bible is the work of G-d, one has to also believe G-d meant it to be studied and interpreted, not Cliff Notes to life, but as a subtle guide. 

BTW, husbands taking unmarried lovers - concubines & mistresses, was quite common and legitimate in the Old Testament era. 

Despite a lot of unfulfilled desire I didn't invite attractive coworkers and friends to my bed while living with my 2nd wife - but after she lost just about all interest in sex and me three years back she eventually told me to find girlfriends and/or prostitutes. I didn't, not because I was controlling my desire, but because I want a LTR, not one night stands.

Now that I'm in SF I've started what my lover and I both hope will be a LTR and I've noticed other women just aren't all that attractive these days, while a few weeks back I'd be salivating.



major misfit said:


> Why not? Just b/c it's ignored by those who cheat? What about the non-cheaters? In the vows they're asking that someone remain faithful to them only. If someone doesn't have any intention of honoring that promise, they shouldn't make it in the first place.
> 
> People enter into that "civil marital contract" because of romantic matters. They're in love. They want to get married and spend the rest of their lives together. I know of very few who view the marriage license as a contract. I happen to be one that does, that's why I have no intention of marrying again. It has nothing to do with fidelity.
> 
> ...


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

:iagree:


ThinkTooMuch said:


> I have to mostly disagree with you because I think your view is black and white missing the grays that form such a large part of life. More and more I've come to the conclusion that life long marriage doesn't work in a world of long lives and 40+ hour work weeks. Add the explicit sensuality of movies, TV, books, magazines, clothing, adverts, and one has to recognize we are being led by our genitals into a world where buying things is supposed to lead to sex beyond our imagination with partners of overwhelming beauty.
> 
> First of all a lot of us marry when we are young and barely know ourselves, let alone the person we want to marry. I certainly did, raging hormones and depression due to the deaths of 6 of my friends in 16 months including one of my closest turned me into a basket case where I was succored and seduced by the woman I later married. As she knew all too well when I asked her to marry a few years later she was a very poor choice (we didn't know she was suffering from borderline personality disorder, she knew she had a problem), but my small head prevailed and we had two wonderful children and a lot of pain over 16 years of living together and marriage.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

ThinkTooMuch said:


> I have to mostly disagree with you because I think your view is black and white missing the grays that form such a large part of life. More and more I've come to the conclusion that life long marriage doesn't work in a world of long lives and 40+ hour work weeks. Add the explicit sensuality of movies, TV, books, magazines, clothing, adverts, and one has to recognize we are being led by our genitals into a world where buying things is supposed to lead to sex beyond our imagination with partners of overwhelming beauty.


Small point but I think you are putting the cart before the horse here. I think that TV, books, etc. are the way they are because we are animals by nature. Sex is survival of the species in the core of our beings. We are more than that. But people forget that we are also sexual animals.



> First of all a lot of us marry when we are young and barely know ourselves, let alone the person we want to marry. I certainly did, raging hormones and depression due to the deaths of 6 of my friends in 16 months including one of my closest turned me into a basket case where I was succored and seduced by the woman I later married. As she knew all too well when I asked her to marry a few years later she was a very poor choice (we didn't know she was suffering from borderline personality disorder, she knew she had a problem), but my small head prevailed and we had two wonderful children and a lot of pain over 16 years of living together and marriage.


Even for people who are good choices, You STILL have the young and foolish issues to contend with. You either grow up together, or you grow apart.



> Having read a bit of history I've learned the current era of romantic marriage is a newcomer - arranged marriages, polygamy in the Old Testament, a brother marrying his brother's widow, marriage as a contract were all far more important and extremely common throughout the world and still being used by large segments of humanity.
> 
> As far as marital advice goes we have 1 Corinthian's famous "it is better to marry than to burn".


Was this Paul? Paul is a well known misogynist who thought the end of times was imminent. He thought all sex was evil. But IF you HAD to have sex, well at least get married. I have a hard time making my life decisions on a view point such as that.

That said, I am completely a-religious. So Corinthians would not be a motivator for me anyway.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

VT, I get it. You know that others can't know what you have so it's unfair of them to judge you. Strange, but the same is true for all marriages because none of us can possibly get an understanding from a single view (that's part of a pair) that's posting limited versions of their experience, right? You are right though...who am I to judge and why do I even care? I don't, I think my personal views get in the way on this one.

ThinkTooMuch, totally disagree and I think your view comes directly from your experience. It's not what I've seen in marriages around me like my Grandparents who were married until my Grandfather passed away at age 75. It's also not what I've experienced in my own life, but let's face it, 14 years married can't compare to my Grandparents' 56.

It's always all about the choices of the pair that entered into the marriage.


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## NOWHERELEFT2TURN (Feb 24, 2011)

If it works for you both, do what you have to do to keep yourselves and your children happy. your children are most important and its obvious that you both know that and are trying to do whats best for them. most infidelities of parents are kept from children to keep from hurting them. my dad cheated on my mother all my childhood and i never knew. she didnt want us to be hurt. i did find out when i was a teenager and wished i hadnt and in my adult years my mother confided a few more of his affairs to me. i wish i had never seen that side of him. i wish i had never known even though i found out in later years. there are some things in parents lives that go on that kids do not need to know for their own sake. i do not feel i would ever do something like this, but i do not feel its mine or anyone elses place to judge you. only you know your entire situation and what your feeling and whats best for your family as a whole. good luck to you and him and whatever you do and i commend you for doing anything to keep your children happy and safe.


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

ThinkTooMuch said:


> I have to mostly disagree with you because I think your view is black and white missing the grays that form such a large part of life. More and more I've come to the conclusion that life long marriage doesn't work in a world of long lives and 40+ hour work weeks. Add the explicit sensuality of movies, TV, books, magazines, clothing, adverts, and one has to recognize we are being led by our genitals into a world where buying things is supposed to lead to sex beyond our imagination with partners of overwhelming beauty.


You are absolutely right...it is black and white to ME. I make a conscious choice to remain faithful. I expect the same of my partner, reagardless of "movies, TV, books, magazines, clothing,adverts", etc. Some of those things can be tools to enhance a monogamous relationship with my partner. 



> First of all a lot of us marry when we are young and barely know ourselves, let alone the person we want to marry. I certainly did, raging hormones and depression due to the deaths of 6 of my friends in 16 months including one of my closest turned me into a basket case where I was succored and seduced by the woman I later married. As she knew all too well when I asked her to marry a few years later she was a very poor choice (we didn't know she was suffering from borderline personality disorder, she knew she had a problem), but my small head prevailed and we had two wonderful children and a lot of pain over 16 years of living together and marriage.
> 
> Having read a bit of history I've learned the current era of romantic marriage is a newcomer - arranged marriages, polygamy in the Old Testament, a brother marrying his brother's widow, marriage as a contract were all far more important and extremely common throughout the world and still being used by large segments of humanity.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what the bible has to do with anything. It was my post you quoted, and I made no mention of God, the bible or anything else with religious connotations. If that was just expounding on your post, then ignore me.

I still say that those who make the CHOICE to "open" their marriage do not fully understand those that make the CHOICE not to. And never the 'twain shall meet.

ThinkTooMuch...I wish you happiness in your new relationship.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

major misfit said:


> I still say that those who make the CHOICE to "open" their marriage do not fully understand those that make the CHOICE not to. And never the 'twain shall meet.


THIS I disagree with 150%. The vast majority of people I know who have done this spend the first decade(s) as traditionally monogamous by serious intent. I know what it means to choose monogamy, as I too spent the first decade plus as a monogamous married person. People sometimes don't start out that way but grow into it.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

major misfit said:


> I still say that those who make the CHOICE to "open" their marriage do not fully understand those that make the CHOICE not to. And never the 'twain shall meet.


I am curious about your emphasis on CHOICE. Do you feel that you are being called to task for choosing traditional monogamy?


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## typewittyusernamehere (Feb 12, 2011)

Ummm, wow.........


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## Rob774 (Sep 27, 2010)

I k now the OP is long gone, but here is my 2 cents...

IMO, she took the easy way out that benefitted "her" the greatest. Because she could of just turned the other cheek and continued to let her hubby have whomever he wanted as long as the "happy household" was kept together. So after tired of letting her hubby, who obviously didn't love her or respect her do all his dirt, she figured, "Might as well get mine!" Then we gloss it all up and say, (in my Chris Rock voice) "ITS ALL FOR THE KIDS!!!"

Also, one of the things i didn't see anyone mentioned in all these responses, what about how the kids see the parents now. I mean there is no love in the household, you get away with that when the kids are young, not when they get older. They pick up on vibes that mommy and daddy don't love one another. And what about the resentment issue, you can't tell me she still doesn't feel some type of way for all the drama he's put her through, regardless that she's getting in on it too. 

Me personally, could not do this, and there's a whole slew of women i wouldn't mind banging. Marriage means so much too me, i just couldn't sit around and play "pretend."


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Rob774 said:


> I k now the OP is long gone, but here is my 2 cents...


I have never seen opening marriage to solve marital problems work. I have seen it crash and burn many times. I am not optimistic for the OP.


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

The one thing I've noticed here in the argument about whether or not you should get married if you intend to have an open marriage is that it seems everyone is trying to put the intricacies of the relationship onto a piece of paper. 

Just like that saying about how the wedding is just one day, the marriage is forever, the fact is the marriage license is nothing more than a piece of paper. Now before anyone jumps all over me about how it's more than that, please let me explain: That piece of paper makes you legally husband and wife with all the legal benefits of the position. That piece of paper does not make a previously unfaithful partner faithful; it doesn't make a couple have children; it doesn't determine where they spend Christmas or how they'll handle finances. It simply gives them a piece of paper they can show to people and say they're married, and get the tax breaks, next of kin status, and so on. 

The decisions about monogamy, finances, children, etc., are all part of the relationship itself. Every couple makes their own decision about whether to have kids, which spouse will handle the finances, where they will live, etc. The only thing all those couples have in common is that piece of paper. And it's not fair to tell couples "hey, you can do whatever you want about kids and finances, but hey, if you're not going to be faithful, don't sully my marriage with your crap." 

Not only is it not fair to try to put those stipulations on them, but the other thing I've noticed is that it seems that most people who have that "don't get married if..." attitude seem to have that feeling because they seem to think that another person's open marriage somehow detracts from their own marriage. Same attitude some have about gay marriage. And the thing is, if your marriage is made better or worse by other people's marriages, then you have some very big unaddressed problems. Again, the only thing in common is a piece of paper. You should be deciding between the two of you what is right for you, and how to handle your relationship; it should be what's best for you and your family, not what every other couple is doing. 

It's a piece of paper; it's too fragile to handle the weight of all the pressure people want to put on it. The paper is, as others have said, a legal contract. If you look it over carefully, it only says that you are married; it does not say you agree to be faithful, to have children or to live in California vs. Ohio. Those are part of the relationship and the expectations that the couple places on each other. 

And I have no idea if that made sense, kinda not fully awake yet. It made sense in my head anyway.


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## Rob774 (Sep 27, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I have never seen opening marriage to solve marital problems work. I have seen it crash and burn many times. I am not optimistic for the OP.


To me, all she did was apply a bandaid to her marriage. Sooner or later things have to be addressed. I rather do it sooner. If your husband is no good ( which obviously her's wasn't) why keep him the picture and compromise yourself?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I don't see it as a solution. On the other hand since our marriage appears to be irretrievably broken, if she wants to step out I really don't care either. Though I do wish she'd spend her time actually being employed in lieu of sitting around complaining about money all the time.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

atruckersgirl said:


> The one thing I've noticed here in the argument about whether or not you should get married if you intend to have an open marriage is that it seems everyone is trying to put the intricacies of the relationship onto a piece of paper.
> 
> Just like that saying about how the wedding is just one day, the marriage is forever, the fact is the marriage license is nothing more than a piece of paper. Now before anyone jumps all over me about how it's more than that, please let me explain: That piece of paper makes you legally husband and wife with all the legal benefits of the position. That piece of paper does not make a previously unfaithful partner faithful; it doesn't make a couple have children; it doesn't determine where they spend Christmas or how they'll handle finances. It simply gives them a piece of paper they can show to people and say they're married, and get the tax breaks, next of kin status, and so on.
> 
> ...


I think it makes a lot of sense and is very astute.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Natcu,

I thank you for your opinion and would never, EVER try to change it. . .it's actually not even an opinion - it's your feelings and they are what they are.

I do agree with Trenton in that often, it's a bitter pill to swallow to realize one day, your parents are human and "taller children" themselves. I have sensed some past marital discord with my parents and it took a little to digest. They hung in there and remained faithful for 45 years. But it was an epiphany to realize, "Oh, they may have dealt with some of the same crap I am dealing with."

I would like you to just step back, close your eyes and imagine this though - you are in a marriage, trapped, imprisioned, with no emotional and/or physical intimacy. ANd that's it - that's your Religious and Legal Cross to bear.

Speaking from the guy who chose Path Divorce vs. Path Open Marriage. . .let me tell you - divorce ain't a walk in the park for children, even older ones like you. They usually lose a present father, which I think can be a bit harder on sons, which I have 3 of them. You are financially devastated often, and 25% of divorcees remain bitter 10 years later, an astounding statistic if you think about it. Of course, the kids are fall-out in all of that.

Your parents are just trying to make the best of a bad situation.

I hope you are never in a situation like your parents or me to fully appreciate the quandry and condundum that exists - the Devil's 3 way choice:

A. Open Marrige
B. Divorce
C. Live in a Miserable Maritial Household and just put up with it.

Again, not trying to change how you feel.

But I hope you could evolve to respecting your parent's decision, even if you disagree with it.

Again, I appreciate your input more than you know.


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