# Emotional Affair?



## jasoncampbell

I feel blindsided.

My wife (29) and I (30) have been married for 7 years. We've known each other for 16. The first 9 years we were best friends, never dated, connected about everything. Talked to each other , joked and laughed about our other relationships. At 21/22 we started dating after she confided in me what she had always had a crush on me. Was a bit of a surprise to me, but welcome (obviously). We dated for 3 years in college together and got married the month we graduated

3 years later we had our first daughter. What a joy. Best thing that has happened in my life. Two and a half years later we were pregnant again. Early in the pregnancy there were problems. We were told at the 13 week ultrasound that the baby would not make it (less than .01% chance) and if it did that it would have severe problems. We both let go emotionally and waited for the baby to self terminate.

She didn't. She was a miracle, born with a congenital heart defect. She spent 4 months in the hospital and underwent 8 surgery to correct the pluming in her heart. I never knew I could love someone more than my first daughter. Our second is the happiest kid, never stops smiling. She takes a lot out of us. She is one right now, but developmentally (motor skills) is still like a 7 month old. Other than that she is right on track. Mentally scoring really high and no problems at all.

The last 9 months my wife and I have been living like single parents. I am too busy. I realize that now. I feel like I'm a super dad, working extended hours to provide for the family and let my wife stay at home with our daughters. We never see each other. I looked at this as a difficult time we'll get through... I've always thought that's how she felt too.

8 weeks ago I thought it was odd that my wife went to a football game with a mutual friend of ours from HS. He doesn't even follow the team. They went with a group... I was busy (work of course), so he took my seat. I jokingly said "hey, now you and John get that date he's always wanted." (in HS he was obsessed with my wife, she was never interested). She took it the wrong way... way the wrong way... blew up. Whoa? A week later it came up again and long story short I told her I didn't think it was appropriate for a married woman to be alone with a single guy. She convinced me that I was wrong... I'm controlling. I can't complete her and she needs friends to make her whole. I listened and said "ok"

Sunday I was giving our oldest daughter a bath and heard my wife's phone ping for a text message. It's looked down but it flashed John ____... I made a mental note and thought, let me look at the phone records and see how often he's texting her.

Yesterday I remembered that thought and did.

I spent 2 hours digging through the last 5 months of phone calls and messages. My wife has averaged texting John 221 times a day (over 95% of her total texting), she has talked to him on the phone an average of 26.7 minutes a day since early August. Most of these conversations happen when she is driving to and from school, the texts all day. Sometimes at 2am... always at 8am

I'm confused... how can this much communication be going on between her and someone else without me knowing it? How can that not be deceptive? Sure I'm busy... we both are.

I confronted her about it yesterday, wrong time, our kids were in the back of the van. First question "who would you say you text the most right now?"... "um, my mom and... john". How much would you say you talk to john? "Two, to three times a day"

All sounding like this is no big deal.

"does that strike you as odd?"

"no, he's my friend"

"I need you to be 100% honest with me... can you swear on our daughters lives that nothing is going on between you two physically"

"yes, nothing"

"emotionally?"

"... pause... yes"

I need help... I'm devastated.

We talked a long time last night and she admitted that he is filling an emotional void she has with me. It started while she was in the hospital (100 days straight with our second... amazing mother btw! )... through facebook chat. She said he was someone to talk to, and she feels like I'm closed off and she can't talk to me. I asked her why she feels she can't open up to me... I've never felt like she can connect to me or express her emotions... she doesn't know. She can't answer that.

I knew this was a problem for her and I've often tried to work on it. I always figured she just couldn't open up to anyone.

Now I know there was someone she was opening up to. I'm still convinced nothing physical has happened... but this is just as bad... worse?

How do I fix this... I don't think I can... she needs to right?

We are going to our first marriage counseling session in a couple hours.


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## tom67

Over 221 texts a day? BIG red flag this has to end now if it hasn't gone physical already. She has to be transparent email pw phone pw ect. Sorry man. This is not your fault she could have approached you about this first.Put a var in her car also.


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## keko

Are you sure john isn't coming to your house while you're at work?

Did you read the content of her text messages or just the logs?


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## Hope1964

Yes, SHE needs to fix it. She must IMMEDIATELY send a nc letter (please see the newbie link in my signature) There's a book called Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass she should read. And she must prove to you she's not up to anything else. Willingly.

His Needs Her Needs is a great book also, to work through why you grew apart. But before you work on things together, she must come out of her affair fog.

I really hope your MC tells you all this, because if he/she doesn't you need a new one. MC often doesn't help anyway, until the WS gets out of their fog.

And get STD tested.


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## Gabriel

G*D DAMM*T I hate these stories. This one hits home too.

She has to cut it off completely, no iffs ands or buts. And you need to wake up and give your wife more attention.

Both of these things need to happen. Right. Now.


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## Acabado

Make your demands NOW.

NC letter
Complete transparence plus acountability of whereabouts.
Full disclosure (I suspects it's way more than EA)
MC, maybe IC for her.
Reading Not just friends
Plan to rebuild marriage.

Or divorce.

No more options, no I'm confussed (but remaining in contact with OM), no I need time to think/decide (but remaining in contact with OM). The marriage may survive, maybe not but OM is out of the picture for good. She ends it now or divorce. 
*You can stomach divorce her but not sharing her.* If you don't agree with it then embrace the cuckold lifestyle and don't forget to provide condoms (if it's not already a PA she will feel now free to persue it now it's all in the open).

Still on her back you put yourself on PI mode. Trust but verify. Even when agree the rules they rarely can stop definitively at first attepmt. EAs are very hard to crack. They want all. They want what marriage provides AND the cake on the side.

Completely ignore her any excuses justifications, reasons or nonsese she tells you, You are not to blame. She's a grown up. She knew it was wrong.


Welcome TAM CWI newbies- please read this


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## Gabriel

Acabado said:


> Make your demands NOW.
> 
> NC letter
> Complete transparence plus acountability of whereabouts.
> Full disclosure (I suspects it's way more than EA)
> MC, maybe IC for her.
> Reading Not just friends
> Plan to rebuild marriage.
> 
> Or divorce.
> 
> No more options, no I'm confussed (but remaining in contact with OM), no I need time to think/decide (but remaining in contact with OM). The marriage may survive, maybe not but OM is out of the picture for good. She ends it now or divorce.
> *You can stomach divorce her but not sharing her.* If you don't agree with it then embrace the cuckold lifestyle and don't forget to provide condoms (if it's not already a PA she will feel now free to persue it now it's all in the open).
> 
> Still on her back you put yourself on PI mode. Trust but verify. Even when agree the rules they rarely can stop definitively at first attepmt. EAs are very hard to crack. They want all. They want what marriage provides AND the cake on the side.
> 
> 
> Welcome TAM CWI newbies- please read this


This should be in the TAM Bible.


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## Toffer

Yeah, this is AT LEAST a big EA.

You've gotten some good advice here. Use it.


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## TRy

jasoncampbell said:


> We talked a long time last night and she admitted that he is filling an emotional void she has with me.


 She admitted right there to being in a emotional affair (EA) with this other man (OM). 



jasoncampbell said:


> She said he was someone to talk to, and she feels like I'm closed off and she can't talk to me. I asked her why she feels she can't open up to me... I've never felt like she can connect to me or express her emotions... she doesn't know. She can't answer that.


 She is telling you to your face that the OM has successfully gotten in between the two of you and your marriage and that she is picking him over you. This is for sure an EA.

An emotional affair is cheating pure and simple. Read “Not Just Friends” today. Your marriage is in danger. Act now. You are not over reacting. You are not controlling. You have a right to protect your marriage. BTW, if the MC does not say this, you need to get a new one. After you have read the book "Not Just Friends", have both your wife and the MC read it. Also do not blame yourself for not being perfect. No one is perfect yet a cheater will always try to blame shift by holding you to a standard of perfection that they do no hold themselves to; do not buy into this.


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## thunderstruck

A man will not text ANYBODY 221 times/day unless he's getting tail, or trying like hell to get it.

You need to confront this "mutual friend" now. No crazy threats or yelling. Just tell him in a confident voice that you know what he's up to, you see him as a predator on your family, and you WILL do whatever it takes to protect your family. Then you STFU, and end the conversation. No need to listen to this POS explain himself.


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## jasoncampbell

thunderstruck said:


> A man will not text ANYBODY 221 times/day unless he's getting tail, or trying like hell to get it.
> 
> You need to confront this "mutual friend" now. No crazy threats or yelling. Just tell him in a confident voice that you know what he's up to, you see him as a predator on your family, and you WILL do whatever it takes to protect your family. Then you STFU, and end the conversation. No need to listen to this POS explain himself.



I was going to ask if this was appropriate or not. DW even mentioned last night (in her self sobbing over how she understands this will cost her a friend)... "He really likes you. We should all just hang out together more."

I find myself angry at this guy. Maybe I'm making excuses for my wife, but she was in emotion distress over our daughter and he swooped in... what guy does that without realizing it? She's convinced its innocent and talks about him like there is absolutely no attraction - just someone to talk to. I don't believe her looking at the facts (writing is on the wall)... but in 16 years I've learned to read her pretty well and it appears to me she isn't lying at the no physical contact.

Thanks for the advice so far. I am level headed enough to realize that some things just aren't meant to be. I understand that it takes two... and if I'm willing and she is not there is nothing I can do. We're better off apart. 

What kills me inside is our daughters... they deserve better.


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## Hope Springs Eternal

jasoncampbell said:


> We are going to our first marriage *cancelling* session in a couple hours.


This is an interesting slip you made here.


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## TBT

jasoncampbell said:


> She's convinced its innocent and talks about him like there is absolutely no attraction - just someone to talk to.


So if you were texting with a married women over 200 times a day what would she think you were up to?


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## jasoncampbell

bobka said:


> This is an interesting slip you made here.


:scratchhead:

I remember that one got the red squiggle under it and I right clicked and selected the first option. 

subconsciously... that is probably how I feel


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## Plan 9 from OS

I would not rule out the idea that your wife is in a physical affair with this guy either. Why would she bristle at you when you made a joke about her giving John the date he never got with her in HS? You probably hit too close to home with that comment. If it was truly only an EA, she probably felt guilty about all the time she talked to John as early as that moment. She knows/knew what she was doing. Don't let her fool you about it being innocent.


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## strugglinghusband

Not just Friends . 

Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"


1. Do you confide more to your friend than to your partner about how your day went?


Yes No

2. Do you discuss negative feelings or intimate details about your marriage with your friend but not with your partner?

Yes No

3. Are you open with your partner about the extent of your involvement with your friend?

Yes No


4. Would you feel comfortable if your partner heard your conversation with your friend?

Yes No


5. Would you feel comfortable if your partner saw a videotape of your meetings?

Yes No


6. Are you aware of sexual tensions in this friendship?

Yes No


7. Do you and your friend touch differently when you're alone than in front of others?

Yes No


8. Are you in love with your friend?

Yes No

Scoring Key:

You get one point each for yes to questions 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, and one point each for no to 3, 4, 5.

If you scored near 0, this is just a friendship.
If you scored 3 or more, you may not be "just friends."
If you scored 7-8, you are definitely involved in an emotional affair.


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## badmemory

I have to agree with thunderstruck. If you believe she's only in an emotional affair, you need to prepare yourself for finding out otherwise. My wife trickle truthed me into believing that, and I found a lot fewer text logs than you have.

But I kept on looking. 

See if you can get on her computer and run e-mail recovery software for her deleted e-mails. That's how I discovered my wife was lying about the EA, which turned out to be a 2 year PA.


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## tom67

badmemory said:


> I have to agree with thunderstruck. If you believe she's only in an emotional affair, you need to prepare yourself for finding out otherwise. My wife trickle truthed me into believing that, and I found a lot fewer text logs than you have.
> 
> But I kept on looking.
> 
> See if you can get on her computer and run e-mail recovery software for her deleted e-mails. That's how I discovered my wife was lying about the EA, which turned out to be a 2 year PA.


Time to think about scheduling a polygraph test. If she can't go cold turkey on him I would get some legal advice.


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## skip76

jasoncampbell said:


> I was going to ask if this was appropriate or not. DW even mentioned last night (in her self sobbing over how she understands this will cost her a friend)... "He really likes you. We should all just hang out together more."
> 
> I find myself angry at this guy. Maybe I'm making excuses for my wife, but she was in emotion distress over our daughter and he swooped in... what guy does that without realizing it? She's convinced its innocent and talks about him like there is absolutely no attraction - just someone to talk to. I don't believe her looking at the facts (writing is on the wall)... but in 16 years I've learned to read her pretty well and it appears to me she isn't lying at the no physical contact.
> 
> Thanks for the advice so far. I am level headed enough to realize that some things just aren't meant to be. I understand that it takes two... and if I'm willing and she is not there is nothing I can do. We're better off apart.
> 
> What kills me inside is our daughters... they deserve better.


You can not read her pretty well, she has been texting another man two hundred and twenty times a day and you didn't "read it". You no longer know who she is, everything is fake and should be questioned now. If you think this guy sent her 20,000, yes 20,000 text meassages without anything physical you are crazy! Does this guy have a job? how can he text so much?


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## keko

skip76 said:


> You can not read her pretty well, she has been texting another man two hundred and twenty times a day and you didn't "read it". You no longer know who she is, everything is fake and should be questioned now. If you think this guy sent her 20,000, yes 20,000 text meassages without anything physical you are crazy! Does this guy have a job? how can he text so much?


Exactly. No man would invest so much time and effort without getting something physical in return.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

keko said:


> Exactly. No man would invest so much time and effort without getting something physical in return.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do not say that.

I dated/engaged to my wife for 6 years before we married and she was a virgin till we were on our honeymoon.

I might be the rare exception but I have to believe I am not alone.

But that number of texts would make be engorce conditions right away as well as dig deep.

He is no friend of yours or your marriage.

Time to get tough and not listen to her BS.

And a great mother would not get involved with another man and disrespect her marriage.


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## Tinkers

Let me be a voice of relaxed rationale in what must seem like a sea of spurned men....there is always a chance that she really did just need to speak to someone other than you...personally I don't think that confirms infidelity in any way...I understand the suspicions of course, but the responses by the judge, jury, and executioners on here must be excrusciating to read...though websters kind of disagrees, there is a difference between privacy and secrecy..you need to be diligent in your pursuit of the truth of course, but you also need to be respectful in that endeavor...and slinging accusations of adultery prematurely at the mother of your children, its not only disrespectful, but reckless at a minimum...start out making her understand your suspicions, and that there needs to be some clarity obtained...and that clarity will only be obtained thru transparency...


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## FryFish

Tinkers is off the mark on this... 200 texts a day IS an emotional affair... All the texting I do to everyone I KNOW falls well short of 200 a day.


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## Gabriel

I'm sorry, Tinkers, but 221 texts per day is not just a friendly situation. Let's say people are awake 17 hours a day, and sleep 7 hours. That's a text every 5 minutes!!! For the entire time you are awake all day and evening!!!

Maybe I need a break from these stories...


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## badmemory

Tinkers said:


> Let me be a voice of relaxed rationale in what must seem like a sea of spurned men....there is always a chance that she really did just need to speak to someone other than you...personally I don't think that confirms infidelity in any way...I understand the suspicions of course, but the responses by the judge, jury, and executioners on here must be excrusciating to read...though websters kind of disagrees, there is a difference between privacy and secrecy..you need to be diligent in your pursuit of the truth of course, but you also need to be respectful in that endeavor...and slinging accusations of adultery prematurely at the mother of your children, its not only disrespectful, but reckless at a minimum...start out making her understand your suspicions, and that there needs to be some clarity obtained...and that clarity will only be obtained thru transparency...


First, let me say that your implication that this board includes a "sea of spurned men" is condescending and inaccurate. Sex has nothing to do with it. Though many of us have been spurned, we are both male and female. I happen to believe our collective experiences can be valuable to anyone who may be headed in the same direction. Sometimes the BS's realization can indeed be excruciating, but in my view, that's part of the unique and valuable perspective that the members of this forum can provide. Sometimes the truth hurts, but needs to be heard. 

I disagree with you that this situation does not indicate an EA and I also believe that this poster needs to realize, the high "possibility" of a PA. Certain? No. But he should be prepared and forewarned of that possibility as he continues to investigate.


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## sunshinetoday

Tinkers, Im not a man, but a married woman and I am here to tell the OP, there is more going on then friendship. You JUST DON'T text a single male friend that many times a day, when you are a married mother of 2 little girls. Unless you are having an emotional or physical affair. Good luck OP!


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## Hope Springs Eternal

jasoncampbell said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> I remember that one got the red squiggle under it and I right clicked and selected the first option.
> 
> subconsciously... that is probably how I feel


Make sure you check back in here with any comments on your marriage "cancelling" appointment.


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## Tinkers

sunshinetoday said:


> Tinkers, Im not a man, but a married woman and I am here to tell the OP, there is more going on then friendship. You JUST DON'T text a single male friend that many times a day, when you are a married mother of 2 little girls. Unless you are having an emotional or physical affair. Good luck OP!


Oooohhhh...what if it is revealed that the OM is gay, and asked that this not be revealed even to the woman's husband? My whole point is let the process this event, I'm sure no one here has to jam down his throat what possibly could have happened between his wife and this other man...I'm sure he's played out the scenarios in his head..I realize the importance of making this man aware of the possibilities of what may have happened...but does it always have to be approached with this kind of "misery loves company", vindictive undertones type delivery? I swear every person who comes on here is hit with this "just tear the band aid right off!" barrage...has anyone ever thought that they may be arming someone to attack and non-adulterous person?


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## FryFish

Are you from Doc Cool Tinkers? Go away.


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## TRy

Tinkers said:


> Oooohhhh...what if it is revealed that the OM is gay, and asked that this not be revealed even to the woman's husband? My whole point is let the process this event, I'm sure no one here has to jam down his throat what possibly could have happened between his wife and this other man...I'm sure he's played out the scenarios in his head..I realize the importance of making this man aware of the possibilities of what may have happened...but does it always have to be approached with this kind of "misery loves company", vindictive undertones type delivery? I swear every person who comes on here is hit with this "just tear the band aid right off!" barrage...has anyone ever thought that they may be arming someone to attack and non-adulterous person?


 You do not have to be in a physically adulterous relationship to be having an affair. Connecting emotionally with another man (OM) over her husband is by definition an emotional affair (EA). An EA is cheating. Her admission that the other man "is filling an emotional void she has with" her husband is an open admission of an EA. For many women a EA is a prerequisite to a physical affair (PA). 

In the book "His Needs, Her Needs" the study showed that for men sex is their top need, while sex did not make the top list for women. Conversation on the other hand is a top need of women and does not make the top list for men. By meeting her emotional need for conversation, she may not be able to say no when he asks her to meet his top need. Even if she says no at first, she may miss him when he stops meeting her need and give in. This of course assumes the best case situation that she has not already given in.


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## walkonmars

Tinkers, sounds to me you were involved in something you deemed innocent- while someone else disagreed. 

Won't threadjack further. The OP is asking for opinions. He's lurked here before asking therefore knows or thinks he knows the kind os straight from the shoulder opinions provided from experienced people.

Peace to you


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## happyman64

Tinkers said:


> Oooohhhh...what if it is revealed that the OM is gay, and asked that this not be revealed even to the woman's husband? My whole point is let the process this event, I'm sure no one here has to jam down his throat what possibly could have happened between his wife and this other man...I'm sure he's played out the scenarios in his head..I realize the importance of making this man aware of the possibilities of what may have happened...but does it always have to be approached with this kind of "misery loves company", vindictive undertones type delivery? I swear every person who comes on here is hit with this "just tear the band aid right off!" barrage...has anyone ever thought that they may be arming someone to attack and non-adulterous person?


Now your stretching Tinkers. And the last woman that had an EA. with a gay man on TAM, well the POSOM turned out be not so gay when it came to cheating on his partner.


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## hurthubby

Doesn't matter if it's a physical affair or emotional. If your feelings are hurt and your uncomfortable with the relationship she has with this guy then she should stop. If she doesn't then it would be time for you to reevaluate your marriage. If you can't be open and completely honest with your spouse then how do you expect the marriage to last.


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## costa200

Tinkers said:


> Let me be a voice of relaxed rationale in what must seem like a sea of spurned men....there is always a chance that she really did just need to speak to someone other than you...personally I don't think that confirms infidelity in any way...I understand the suspicions of course, but the responses by the judge, jury, and executioners on here must be excrusciating to read...though websters kind of disagrees, there is a difference between privacy and secrecy..you need to be diligent in your pursuit of the truth of course, but you also need to be respectful in that endeavor...and slinging accusations of adultery prematurely at the mother of your children, its not only disrespectful, but reckless at a minimum...start out making her understand your suspicions, and that there needs to be some clarity obtained...and that clarity will only be obtained thru transparency...


Right... Spend a while reading this forum. See you in a month and we will talk about those fanciful possibilities. Like "transparency"... ROFL... 

You know what transparency sounds like from a woman who is banging a "john"? It sounds like this:

"Don't you trust me?"
"How could you think such a thing about me?"
"I would never do that to you!"
"You're just jealous and insecure"

And right next to:

"You're being controlling"... 

Oh wait!



> She convinced me that I was wrong... I'm controlling


Yeah, scratch that one, she used it already!


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## ms.beesknees

Sounds so familiar. So sorry and we are here for you. Yes it is an EA and you need to set limits with her asap before it becomes a PA. Does your wife have intimacy issues? Sometimes it is easier to confide in an aquantance because you dont care as much about their opinion.. also if you know this quy I would confront him and tell him to find his own wife. But she needs to stop all contact with him immediately. In my opinion, no men and women cannot be good friends without it escallading. Unless one of them is gay.


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## Plan 9 from OS

TRy said:


> You do not have to be in a physically adulterous relationship to be having an affair. Connecting emotionally with another man (OM) over her husband is by definition an emotional affair (EA). An EA is cheating. Her admission that the other man "is filling an emotional void she has with" her husband is an open admission of an EA. For many women a EA is a prerequisite to a physical affair (PA).
> 
> In the book "His Needs, Her Needs" the study showed that for men sex is their top need, while sex did not make the top list for women. Conversation on the other hand is a top need of women and does not make the top list for men. By meeting her emotional need for conversation, she may not be able to say no when he asks her to meet his top need. Even if she says no at first, she may miss him when he stops meeting her need and give in. This of course assumes the best case situation that she has not already given in.


Excellent response. I was going to type up something similar but don't need to. If my wife had a relationship like this with one of her girlfriends, I would call that an emotional affair. 200+ texts/day is grossly excessive and it is obvious that the woman is putting her emotional energy into this other person. It doesn't matter if sex happens or not, the husband feels the chasm open between him and his wife due to her spending her energies on someone else.


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## DavidWYoung

Sorry that you are here and sorry that you are in denial. You wife is either with the marriage or not. She is your wife or not. She works for the marriage or not. Tell her stright to her face "You are either with me or against me"! Yes, that is very black and white thinking b ut in this case you need to end this stupidity before it gets way out of hand.


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## carmen ohio

jasoncampbell said:


> I was going to ask if this was appropriate or not. DW even mentioned last night (in her self sobbing over how she understands this will cost her a friend)... "He really likes you. We should all just hang out together more."
> 
> I find myself angry at this guy. Maybe I'm making excuses for my wife, but she was in emotion distress over our daughter and he swooped in... what guy does that without realizing it? She's convinced its innocent and talks about him like there is absolutely no attraction - just someone to talk to. I don't believe her looking at the facts (writing is on the wall)... but in 16 years I've learned to read her pretty well and it appears to me she isn't lying at the no physical contact.
> 
> Thanks for the advice so far. *I am level headed enough to realize that some things just aren't meant to be. I understand that it takes two... and if I'm willing and she is not there is nothing I can do. We're better off apart. *
> 
> What kills me inside is our daughters... they deserve better.


Dear jc,

Most of the responses you've received are on the mark. Your wife has done something she shouldn't have -- at the very least she has been setting herself up to have an EA if not a PA and, like many others here, I think the evidence strongly suggests she's already in an EA (e.g., the heavy texting, her choking when you said EA, and "_her self sobbing over how she understands this will cost her a friend_").

I note the penultimate sentence of you last post, "_some things just aren't meant to be_." You're right. Your job now is to find out if your marriage is meant to be or not, and the best way to do this is to take charge of the situation and tell your wife exactly what you need her to do to save it. Some suggestions:

(1) She will tell you everything that happened between her and the OM and then, if you ask her to, take a polygraph test to prove that she's told you the whole truth.

(2) She will write the OM a letter saying that she believes their continuing to have any further contact would jeopardize her marriage and instructing him not to contact her again. She will give you the letter so that you can mail it. She will never contact him again nor respond to any communications from him, and she will tell you of any attempts on the OM's part to contact her.

(3) She will be an open book to you, letting you see all her e-mails and text messages whenever and for as long as you like. She will also stop going out with others if you are not present.

(4) She will work with you to identify what went wrong in your marriage that may have contributed to her straying (the MC should greatly help here).

These are commonly suggested steps to ensure that an inappropriate relationship is truly and finally ended so that the R process can begin. You don't have to ask for all of them and their may be others things you need her to do. Just make sure you think about what you need and tell her about all of them. You will only get one chance at this.

In return, you will promise her that, if she follows through on her promises, you will do your best never again to complain about what she did and will work on your marriage with her so that she is never again tempted to stray. This includes listening carefully to any of her needs that she feels you are not meeting.

But if she balks (and here's where you find out whether your marriage is _"meant to be"_), you must tell her that you will end the marriage. You must be prepared to say this and say it like you mean it (even if you don't).

Prepare yourself for this conversation (know exactly what you're going to say).Have it in a place and at a time where and when you both are comfortable (arrange this in advance and tell her that she needs to be prepared to have a serious conversation). When you deliver your message be firm but calm. Don't raise your voice or do anything else that would make her uncomfortable. If she gives you excuses why she shouldn't have to do some of the things you ask, don't argue with her. Simply say something like, "I told you what I want. I'm not forcing you to do anything but instead giving you a chance to work with me to fix our marriage. If you can't or won't do what I ask, I will accept that, but then I don't want to be your H anymore because I don't want to spend the rest of my life with someone that I don't trust and who is not prepared to do the hard work necessary to have a great marriage."

This may sound extreme but, right now, you're getting half truths and, as a result, are in agony and your marriage is in limbo. What you need to know to move forward with your life (one way or the other) is whether your W wants to save her marriage, and the only way you are going to learn this is to make it clear to her that you are prepared to end it if she's not willing to give you what you need from her.

Check out some of the other stories on this site and elsewhere on the web and you will learn that, for most women, even "good" women, it is only the realization that their marriage is on the line that brings them to their senses. Also, please understand that what most women really want is for their H to be a stand up kind of man who leads them gently but firmly while providing them with their basic needs like security, respect and affection (including lots of sex). This may be the 21st century but our genetic make up is largely unchanged since the days when human beings literally had to fight for survival. This means that women are attracted most strongly to men who know what they want and go out and get it. It also means that the best way to lose her (now or sometime in the future) is to be whiny, indecisive and fearful. No women worth having wants a H like that.

BTW, whatever happens between you and your W, you would benefit greatly from checking out Blog | Married Man Sex Life

I hope you find this helpful and, whatever you decide to do, I wish the best for you and your family.


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## AlphaHalf

She swore on your children that its not Emotional. But you know it is. She will lie about anything to cover this up.


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## Tinkers

Wow..polygraphs...not go out with others unless he's present? Did I miss something? This is the 21st century right, and this is his wife, not his prostitute he paid for right? Should she be made to walk 10ft behind him also? personally even if I never did a thing, and was asked by my wife to take a polygraph, I'd be "screw you, I'm outa here"...this is supposed to be 2 adults working out a problem, not the Spanish inquisition...right? Please someone explain to me how, even if, she had an EA/PA, humiliating her is in anyway helpful...I would think smothering, controlling, and emotionally beating anyone down, innocent or guilty, will take its toll, and the repurcutions would be long lasting, and detrimental in there own way...you beat someone down psychologically like a rented mule, and the outcome will not be pretty, regardless of the information you obtained by doing so...you are still dealing with a human being, and the mother of your children


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## warlock07

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VAR her car (since she talks to during this time)

She replaced you with him...This went a little too long for nothing to have happened. If nothing happened, you are really lucky but you need the absolute truth before you work on fixing it...


You will have to snoop on her for some time to find out the real truth.. i think it is the worst case scenario(EA and PA). You confronted her way too early.. Now you need to find out the absolute truth to fix the marriage or the lies will eventually destroy the marriage anyway. If she could cheat on you, lying shouldn't be all that hard(We've had many spouses swear on their kids, parents and whatever they can to deny the affair only to be found out later). Her sobbing could well be her crying about the end of her relationship with this guy..


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## Chaparral

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I would not rule out the idea that your wife is in a physical affair with this guy either. Why would she bristle at you when you made a joke about her giving John the date he never got with her in HS? You probably hit too close to home with that comment. If it was truly only an EA, she probably felt guilty about all the time she talked to John as early as that moment. She knows/knew what she was doing. Don't let her fool you about it being innocent.


Nearly every guy here thought he could tell when his wife was lying. Unfortunately, they are almost always wrong. Deception is a way of life for a cheater.

Get a VAR for her car, cheaters usually talk to their lover in the car where they have absolute privacy.


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## Chaparral

Tinkers said:


> Let me be a voice of relaxed rationale in what must seem like a sea of spurned men....there is always a chance that she really did just need to speak to someone other than you...personally I don't think that confirms infidelity in any way...I understand the suspicions of course, but the responses by the judge, jury, and executioners on here must be excrusciating to read...though websters kind of disagrees, there is a difference between privacy and secrecy..you need to be diligent in your pursuit of the truth of course, but you also need to be respectful in that endeavor...and slinging accusations of adultery prematurely at the mother of your children, its not only disrespectful, but reckless at a minimum...start out making her understand your suspicions, and that there needs to be some clarity obtained...and that clarity will only be obtained thru transparency...


This sounds perfectly reasonable, its turned out to be true about twice in the last year. Keep reading the other threads.


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## Chaparral

Originally Posted by F-102 
It may have gone something like this:

They first start catching up, and it's all "How you been doing? What have you been up to?"

Then it would have morphed into talk about:

What they've been doing since they parted
Their significant others since they parted
Their families
Their favorite music, movies, etc.
Their spouses
You
Your job
How your job keeps you away
How lonely she gets when you're away
How she looks forward to their conversations all the time now
How she loves talking to him
How she gets "bored" talking to you
How you don't always listen
How you're not "perfect"
How you can be so insensitive sometimes
How she wonders if she would have stayed with him
How he understands her
How he knows how to make her feel good
How you fail at this
How you are such an a**hole
How she feels young again
How she hasn't felt this happy with you in so long
How he's a better man than you'll ever be
How she wants to see him again
How they can meet under the radar
How she's thought of leaving you
How she ever could have fallen for a jerk like you
How he's her soul mate
How she made a big mistake leaving him
How she made an even bigger mistake marrying you
How they were meant to be together...

...get the picture? 

She secretly contacted him behind your back - RED FLAG 
She created a secret facebook account to facilitate contact with him behind your back - RED FLAG 
She told him to wait till things settle down and contact her on the secret facebook account - RED FLAG 
She would NOT have stopped contact with him if you hadn't found out about it 
She's playing the privacy card. What she wants is secrecy. There is no secrey in marriage. Privacy is when you go to the bathroom


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## Chaparral

Print this off and and study it with your wife :



Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly!


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Tinkers said:


> Wow..polygraphs...not go out with others unless he's present? Did I miss something? This is the 21st century right, and this is his wife, not his prostitute he paid for right? Should she be made to walk 10ft behind him also? personally even if I never did a thing, and was asked by my wife to take a polygraph, I'd be "screw you, I'm outa here"...this is supposed to be 2 adults working out a problem, not the Spanish inquisition...right? Please someone explain to me how, even if, she had an EA/PA, humiliating her is in anyway helpful...I would think smothering, controlling, and emotionally beating anyone down, innocent or guilty, will take its toll, and the repurcutions would be long lasting, and detrimental in there own way...you beat someone down psychologically like a rented mule, and the outcome will not be pretty, regardless of the information you obtained by doing so...you are still dealing with a human being, and the mother of your children


First off, texting one person (regardless of who, what sex, etc) over 200 times a day is having an emotional affair. There is no gray area here. Making this much of an effort to interact with someone means that she is not making herself available to her husband to have that emotional connection. This cannot be disputed in a rational way.

Second, you can't work on marital problems if your spouse lies to you. Is a polygraph test going to an extreme? Yes, but sometimes people have to go to that extent to know the truth. I don't think I'd go down that path because I would simply assume the worst if I was in a situation like this and simply sever the relationship if my wife tried to snow me. This woman is definitely not innocent in, and she is objectively providing another man all of her emotional energies. That is a terrible thing to do to her husband.

Third, so your belief is that even if the OP's wife slept with this man multiple times - on top of emotionally giving herself to this guy via all of the texting - your advice is to not make her feel bad about this but simply work on what the OP did wrong in the relationship? No way! If he took your advice, I would have zero doubt that his wife would simply latch onto another man sooner or later because inevitably, the OP would make some mistake that would set her off. Not confronting this head on in a firm matter will only sanction the actions of the betrayer. All of your points about this being the 21st century and etc. would be one of those classic moves by the betrayer to minimize his/her betrayal and to make the betrayed spouse feel bad for feeling the deep hurt from the betrayal. Obfuscating this is not conducive to fixing this marriage.


----------



## Chaparral

By the way, you have neglected your family and wife by putting your job at such a high priority. Read Married Man Sex Life, Hold onto Your N.U.T.S and have your wife and you both read Not Just Friends and His Needs Her Needs.


----------



## theroad

Recover the texts.

Hide a VAR in the house and in WW car.

Install a key logger on the PC.

Install a real time GPS in her car.

Install spy ware on WW cell.

Gather proof, do not confront but get guideance here first.

When you confront you never reveal your sources. You tell your WW you do not have to prove the truth.


----------



## Chaparral

Read this again.




theroad said:


> Recover the texts.
> 
> Hide a VAR in the house and in WW car.
> 
> Install a key logger on the PC.
> 
> Install a real time GPS in her car.
> 
> Install spy ware on WW cell.
> 
> Gather proof, do not confront but get guideance here first.
> 
> When you confront you never reveal your sources. You tell your WW you do not have to prove the truth.


----------



## costa200

Tinkers said:


> Wow..polygraphs...not go out with others unless he's present? Did I miss something? This is the 21st century right, and this is his wife, not his prostitute he paid for right?


A prostitute is at least honest about what she is doing and you know what to expect.



> Should she be made to walk 10ft behind him also? personally even if I never did a thing, and was asked by my wife to take a polygraph, I'd be "screw you, I'm outa here"...this is supposed to be 2 adults working out a problem, not the Spanish inquisition...right? Please someone explain to me how, even if, she had an EA/PA, humiliating her is in anyway helpful...


And how is acting like a certified sucker helpful?




> I would think smothering, controlling, and emotionally beating anyone down, innocent or guilty, will take its toll, and the repurcutions would be long lasting, and detrimental in there own way...you beat someone down psychologically like a rented mule, and the outcome will not be pretty, regardless of the information you obtained by doing so...you are still dealing with a human being, and the mother of your children


I would pay a ticket to see you on the spot this guy is in... Maybe some sort of Big Brother show! So that i can see how your way would land you in a cuckholding situation while you spout out that weak drivel about "human beings". Clearly you have never experienced anything like this or observed up close. 

What you wrote reeks of appeaser... The kind that would be afraid to confront the cheater! Read on about what happens to that kind of people.


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## jasoncampbell

sorry for the lack of updates yesterday... I have a lot. I'm going to read the posts here first and then fill in the rest soon


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## tom67

jasoncampbell said:


> sorry for the lack of updates yesterday... I have a lot. I'm going to read the posts here first and then fill in the rest soon


No problem


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## Unsure in Seattle

Don't worry about it. Update on your time.


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## jasoncampbell

First off, thanks so much for all of the wisdom and discussion. Please feel free to slap me and wake me up to reality if I'm not showing that I have a grasp of it.

chapparal and carmen ohio in particular had great long posts that I'm sure I'll need to read many more times to fully grasp

Here are the many updates:

*Marriage Counseling*
A lot of healing was started in the session yesterday. Almost all of what was brought up is already on the surface. She was just trying to understand us. The huge eye opening thing for me was the following points:

- DW and I both agree that our marriage has lacked love for at least 3 years. For her, shes felt this and agonized over it internally without expressing it to me. She has expected me to see that and fix it. For me, I think in a coping way I redefined love in marriage to not include emotion (more on that below) and I've been moving along oblivious thinking we've got a perfect family because I adore my children and do everything I can to help my wife.

- DW is closed off emotionally. I was put in a difficult spot in this marriage, because I have always tried to be there for her emotionally... but a resentment she has for her father (physically abusive, sexually?) makes her close off to me. Whenever we've gotten close in the past (much earlier in our marriage) she put up walls and pushed me back out.

When I married DW I felt early on like I was married to her and her mother. A lot of our early fights (verbal only of course) revolved around my asking "why can't you open up to me... why can't you cry to me about your problems?" and her declaring "You can't complete me. I need to be connected to others to be fulfilled as a person. My mom understands me more than you." I adapted, and allowed her to get that connection from her mom that she probably needed to be forced into getting from me.

I did what I do best... made the best of what I have. Focused my energy on our children. Truth is... I gave up on this marriage long ago too.

We both want to work on it. We both are.

Update about EA. It definitely is, and DW admits to it. Crying to me last night, I told her I forgive her and we need to move forward from this. Try, at least.

The guy loves her... she loves that he listens to her. That is my honest assessment of the situation right now.

DW's mother and I talked last night.... one thing that is unique is that I grew up knowing DW and her mother is like a second mom to me. Her mother confided in me last night that DW has distanced herself from her these last 6 months. The last time she distanced herself from her mother was when she got into the relationship before the one with me... that guy abused her (raped her, allowed his friend to join in), got her into trouble with the law. I was the knight in shining armor that saved her from that. That is the foundation of our marriage... not love. It is liberating to say that... but also saddens me. Can this work?

My own psycho analysis of this is that she transitioned from her mother being her emotional support to EA guy. For some reason she has always needed a bond outside our marriage, not from me. I think this isn't me... I think this is her demons... I can't fix this, and I can't expect her to fix herself.

I feel like I need to be guarded going forward and that is no way to continue a marriage. She has a pattern of chaos... she needs chaos in her life. What if she puts on a happy face and tricks us all into thinking this is good and what she wants and 1-2 years from now we're on to the next problem.

I think at this point I agree that I have to give this another shot... but I have rules. If they are broken... if I give it time and she is not open to me emotionally... I'm leaving. 

Our 3 year old already sees our problems. It breaks my heart. I've held us together for them... thinking D is more damaging. This is even worse. 

I hope it gets better... we're at least trying.


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## tom67

She knows she has to go no contact with this guy right?


----------



## jasoncampbell

tom67 said:


> She knows she has to go no contact with this guy right?


Yes, not that I believe this, but she told me that he understood and apologized to both her and me for his part in it. 

She agreed to never talk to him again without my permission. I feel like I need to find a way to enforce this... maybe I will later. I need ideas and help there.

I'm an engineer and computer guy... I have the means to tap and track computers/phones easily. I'm not sure if that is the right thing to do though.


----------



## tom67

jasoncampbell said:


> Yes, not that I believe this, but she told me that he understood and apologized to both her and me for his part in it.
> 
> She agreed to never talk to him again without my permission. I feel like I need to find a way to enforce this... maybe I will later. I need ideas and help there.
> 
> I'm an engineer and computer guy... I have the means to tap and track computers/phones easily. I'm not sure if that is the right thing to do though.


Hey trust but verify for now. There is no privacy in a marriage.


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## RaisedGarden

I am currently going through the same thing. Unfortunately my WW is in such a dense fog we will never work it out. Just letting you know that my wife was going over the allotted texts to talk to the OM, 200 a day is nothing when it comes to being "just close friends". I exposed it to all her friends and family which only made things worse. Unless she want's to end it, no matter what you do she will go behind your back to keep the emotional high going. I feel for you.


----------



## warlock07

> I told her I forgive her and we need to move forward from this


Big big Huge mistake...You should have let her think about her affair.. You are enabling her behavior. Forgiveness given easily is not respected or valued..Even though you might have forgiven her about it, you should have taken sometime to tell her that... And you shuld have taen sometime to grasp and understand the situation before you forgave her(Lik you said in the other post, you need to read stuff many time to totally grasp the meaning behind them. I still believe you need to grasp the entirety of betrayal..)

And 

2)You are like many other BS that post here that is likely trickletruthed by his WS but in denial about it. You think your marriage is special and your wife's infidelity is a unique case. But in most cases,the truth is, there is more that she is lying about or stuff, that she is hiding and withholding from you. In the best case scenario, she is not telling you stuff to not hurt you more or the worst case scenario- to continue the affair underground..Trickle truth. Tell her that you give her one final chance to come clean..You will soon realize that as more truth unravels bit by bit, you will have multiple D-days that will pure hell..Most marriages don't survive multiple D-days

And have you recovered her texts ?if she is tech illiterate, you can bluff her into revealing more stuff.


Just remember, if she can cheat on you, lying about it isn't a big deal


----------



## akashNil

It is P.A.


----------



## jasoncampbell

I called EA guy a few minutes ago and offered to grab a beer and chat... we're meeting this afternoon.

Summary of conversation...

me: "In an effort to get this all out on the table. I've always known you as a stand up guy and I can see how you were there for my wife in a time of need, and I can appreciate that. I know that she values your relationship and I'd love to buy you a beer to chat so we can discuss the situation and where it is gotten to today."

him: "I'll tell you what I told her, I'm sorry for any pain this has caused. My job now is to remove myself from the equation so you two can work out what you need to. I'll certainly meet you where ever you'd like, to chat about it."

What kinds of questions do I need to bring up? What kind of posture should I take? What kind of information am I trying to get.

EA guy and I are both non-confrontational people. There is little to no chance of it escalating to a brawl, that is not my intent at all.

I feel like I need to hear his side, and feel him out for what he thinks my wife is thinking. Is that a healthy thing to know?

Am I crazy for trying to confront him in this way?


----------



## Acabado

I'd never meet my wife's AP. Not in a million years.
I have no energy to have a "conversation" with him. I won't spend head space.
He showed no respect for you. A beer?
No thanks.


----------



## jasoncampbell

I feel like I need to pretend I see him as a good guy to re-enforce his self image that he's just doing the right thing... to get him to tell me what is really going on.


----------



## walkonmars

By meeting with him you are validating his position in your marriage. He has NO PLACE there. 

You can bet your wife will contact him to see how it went. Or he will update her. BET ON IT

Since you already scheduled the meeting keep it short:

"Stay out of our marriage. I don't want to hear you've been around. Not in person. Not by email. Not by phone. Not by mail. Don't send the kid's gifts or greeting cards. In other words get lost. Is that clear?"

Don't let him answer just leave


----------



## tom67

walkonmars said:


> By meeting with him you are validating his position in your marriage. He has NO PLACE there.
> 
> You can bet your wife will contact him to see how it went. Or he will update her. BET ON IT
> 
> Since you already scheduled the meeting keep it short:
> 
> "Stay out of our marriage. I don't want to hear you've been around. Not in person. Not by email. Not by phone. Not by mail. Don't send the kid's gifts or greeting cards. In other words get lost. Is that clear?"
> 
> Don't let him answer just leave


Keep it brief let him talk show no emotion.


----------



## thesunwillcomeout

I knew so little when I had coffee with my husband's EA partner. (I hadn't read "Not Just Friends" -- a must). Since you've already set it up to talk in person let him know in no uncertain terms you have no problem going public with his pursuit of your wife. (Expose to his family, friends, etc). He'll likely dumb down everything and say he's just a friendly guy. I got the line "I'm a good person". She still fished afterwards. She didn't stop until I went to visit her husband and we talked. Much more effective! Keep that tool in your back pocket. I wouldn't trust this guy for a minute!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jasoncampbell

Update: I'm going to call EA guy and tell him I need to push that off a few days because it would be too late tonight (he doesn't get off until 5:30 and live 45 minutes away from us)...

yesterday DW and I agreed to have a fun evening together. That would certainly sour things by taking time away from her and I and also the questions in the back of her mind (wonder what they talked about).

Instead I'm taking her out bowling (something we haven't done since having kids but always used to have a lot of fun with as far back as we can remember) and we're going to try out this counseling thing. MIL is taking the kids for the night.

One problem we've always had in our marriage is an indecisiveness on both of our parts over "what do you want to do?" "anything is ok, how about you?" and no one makes plans. I took the reigns tonight and will plan it all.


----------



## tom67

jasoncampbell said:


> Update: I'm going to call EA guy and tell him I need to push that off a few days because it would be too late tonight (he doesn't get off until 5:30 and live 45 minutes away from us)...
> 
> yesterday DW and I agreed to have a fun evening together. That would certainly sour things by taking time away from her and I and also the questions in the back of her mind (wonder what they talked about).
> 
> Instead I'm taking her out bowling (something we haven't done since having kids but always used to have a lot of fun with as far back as we can remember) and we're going to try out this counseling thing. MIL is taking the kids for the night.
> 
> One problem we've always had in our marriage is an indecisiveness on both of our parts over "what do you want to do?" "anything is ok, how about you?" and no one makes plans. I took the reigns tonight and will plan it all.


That's a good decision have a fun night!:smthumbup:


----------



## cowgirl.at.heart

jasoncampbell said:


> I took the reigns tonight and will plan it all.


I haven't replied, but I've been following this post. THIS is the best thing I've heard you say. 

Hope you have a great night and learn from this one little step that "taking the reins" is something you're going to have to do a LOT more of for your marriage to work.


----------



## Hope Springs Eternal

jasoncampbell said:


> Update: I'm going to call EA guy and tell him I need to push that off a few days because it would be too late tonight (he doesn't get off until 5:30 and live 45 minutes away from us)...
> 
> yesterday DW and I agreed to have a fun evening together. That would certainly sour things by taking time away from her and I and also the questions in the back of her mind (wonder what they talked about).
> 
> Instead I'm taking her out bowling (something we haven't done since having kids but always used to have a lot of fun with as far back as we can remember) and we're going to try out this counseling thing. MIL is taking the kids for the night.
> 
> One problem we've always had in our marriage is an indecisiveness on both of our parts over "what do you want to do?" "anything is ok, how about you?" and no one makes plans. I took the reigns tonight and will plan it all.


Oh, Jason, I can just see that you are a "nice guy." Be prepared for an onslaught of pushback from the hard liners here. 

But more importantly, be yourself. Be who you are in this; take advice, sure, but don't lose who you are. Your W married a nice guy. Be proud of that. Then just make sure you take care of yourself.


----------



## walkonmars

jasoncampbell said:


> Update: I'm going to call EA guy and tell him I need to push that off a few days because it would be too late tonight (he doesn't get off until 5:30 and live 45 minutes away from us)...
> 
> yesterday DW and I agreed to have a fun evening together. That would certainly sour things by taking time away from her and I and also the questions in the back of her mind (wonder what they talked about).
> 
> Instead I'm taking her out bowling (something we haven't done since having kids but always used to have a lot of fun with as far back as we can remember) and we're going to try out this counseling thing. MIL is taking the kids for the night.
> 
> One problem we've always had in our marriage is an indecisiveness on both of our parts over "what do you want to do?" "anything is ok, how about you?" and no one makes plans. I took the reigns tonight and will plan it all.


YAY!
You are the head of your family. Make decisions. If she doesn't like them, listen and adjust. Trust yourself.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

jasoncampbell said:


> Update: I'm going to call EA guy and tell him I need to push that off a few days because it would be too late tonight (he doesn't get off until 5:30 and live 45 minutes away from us)...
> 
> yesterday DW and I agreed to have a fun evening together. That would certainly sour things by taking time away from her and I and also the questions in the back of her mind (wonder what they talked about).
> 
> Instead I'm taking her out bowling (something we haven't done since having kids but always used to have a lot of fun with as far back as we can remember) and we're going to try out this counseling thing. MIL is taking the kids for the night.
> 
> One problem we've always had in our marriage is an indecisiveness on both of our parts over "what do you want to do?" "anything is ok, how about you?" and no one makes plans. I took the reigns tonight and will plan it all.


Honestly, there's no need to meet him. That's not going to be productive IMHO. If he's truly a stand up guy, he'll bow out now because of what you told him. If he's really out to screw your wife in the end, he'll gladly drink your beer and tell you what you want to hear while making plans to bone your wife. In either scenario, meeting him has zero benefit to you. In fact, it does nothing but take time away from your wife and family.


----------



## Chaparral

You know and we know his idea is to bang your wife. He ain't going to admit to that.

Where did your statementthat he loves your wife come from? Did she admit that.

Be very wary they take this underground. Its an addiction and taking a break for a few days will drive them crazy. Watch for burner phones. At least a VAR in her car is a must.

Meeting with him is the same as meeting with a snake. He's not going to admit to anything more than not realizing things were a wee bit overboard but nothing happened.

Have you confirmed NC as of now?

Can anyone remember which recent thread the wife was disappointed because she was going to lose her best friend because of her jealous husband? This is a deja vu moment.


----------



## maincourse99

Thanks for posting this.


----------



## warlock07

I missed the part where you confirmed that there was no sex..


----------



## Will_Kane

jasoncampbell said:


> 8 weeks ago I thought it was odd that my wife went to a football game with a mutual friend of ours from HS. He doesn't even follow the team. They went with a group... I was busy (work of course), so he took my seat. I jokingly said "hey, now you and John get that date he's always wanted." (*in HS he was obsessed with my wife*, she was never interested). She took it the wrong way... way the wrong way... blew up. Whoa?
> 
> I spent 2 hours digging through the last 5 months of phone calls and messages. My wife has averaged texting John *221 times a day (over 95% of her total texting*), she has talked to him on the *phone an average of 26.7 minutes a day* since early August. Most of these conversations happen when she is driving to and from school, the texts all day. Sometimes at 2am... *always at 8am*
> 
> *I'm still convinced nothing physical has happened*... but *this is just as bad... worse*?


Listen to Warlock and chapparal - they know what they're talking about. Re-read their posts.

Jason, a lot of guys like you post here. You all say the exact same things, it just about always turns out the same way. Cheaters follow a script. The script, at this point, is to admit to as little as possible, only what the betrayed spouse already knows, and hope that the cheater will be able to lay low for a while and then continue the affair. You, meanwhile, also are following a script, one that many betrayed spouses follow. It is to be in denial that your loving honest wife whom you've placed on a pedestal is capable of cheating on you. She has not proven herself to be honest about this affair. Put aside her relationship with the children and how great a mother she's been and focus on her relationship with you - don't let how great a mother she's been cloud your judgement.

The very best thing you could do to find out the truth at this point is to let the whole matter drop as much as you can. *Buy a voice-activated recorder and some heavy-duty velcro and put it under the seat of her car.* Keylog the computer. Stop bringing it up, act like you're getting over it. Tell your wife that you know she needs closure with this guy, give her one week to wrap things up forever, then she never will be able to talk to him again. You will learn a lot about your wife's relationship in a week.

The chances that this became physical are very high - close to 100%

Is your wife's phone locked to you?

Has she deleted all of his texts? If so, why? If not, have you seen the content of the texts? If it was all innocent friend stuff, why would she delete the texts?

*SHE TEXTED HIM AT 8AM EVERY DAY. THEY TEXTED 221 TIMES PER DAY. SOMETIMES AT 2AM.* These statement alone tells me that they were exchanging I love yous and sexual messages. If a strong emotional affair was going for months, and they were in physical proximity to each other, they almost definitely hooked up for sex. Friends don't text each other EVERY DAY at 8am. SECRET LOVERS DO. Friends very rarely text each other at 2am. Secret lovers do.

You are being too easy on your wife. VAR the car and lay low, be "understanding" about her need for "closure" for one more week. You will get your answers. *YOU NEED THE TRUTH BEFORE YOU CAN DECIDE WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.* Your wife is not telling you the truth. Cheaters are liars. There is not a single case, out of thousands, on these threads or in real life, where the cheater told the whole truth initially upon being confronted, EVEN when they CONFESSED. Your wife did not confess. She's been hiding everything from you, deleting texts, and lying by omission. The chances you've gotten the truth are about zero.

Meeting with the other man to have a friendly chat only will empower him to keep after your wife. If he's been enamored of your wife since high school, and she has been texting him 221 times per day, he is NOT going to be convinced by anything you say or do. *It makes you look pathetic and weak*, to him as well as to your wife, that you are begging him to stop talking to your wife. As if your wife can't or won't honor your request for no contact, so you have to beg other man to stop. He already knew it was wrong and inappropriate, AS DID YOUR WIFE. He is not going to tell you any great truth you don't already know. *Don't meet with other man.* If you do meet with him, it only should be to knock his teeth out.

What's up with your wife's "you can't complete me" BS? What the heck does that mean? Sounds like some BS line she wheels out every time you have an argument with her about attention she's giving to someone else that rightly should be yours.

Please find out the truth before you forgive her, so that at least you know what you are forgiving.


----------



## Gabriel

Assuming Jay Cutler plays the whole game tomorrow night, you need to really take some time and listen to these responses. They know what they are talking about.

I was in a very similar situation with my W. Her OM (also best male friend) offered to talk to me, claims (still) to not want to take my wife away from me, etc. Of course that's what they are going to say. It's EXACTLY what I would say if I was the OM, in order to increase the probability of hanging on to the relationship. 

You need to separate him from the both of you, not keep him around by having conversations. I know it's tempting as hell (keep your enemies closer thing), but it is going to backfire. He will take it as an invitation to hang around and stay in your lives, even on a lower level. He needs to be the fvck OUT of your lives, COMPLETELY.


----------



## Will_Kane

I guarantee you 100% without a doubt that she texted him *at 8am every day *to tell him *"good morning sweetie, I love you, have a good day, you are in my thoughts and in my heart xoxoxox"*

And she texted him *every night*, probably 8pm or later, to tell him *"I love you sweetie, sleep well, sweet dreams, I will be dreaming about you xoxoxox."*


----------



## heartsickpuppy

The "7 year itch" is real. That is when my wife had her first EA. Her first PA was at 10. And now 1 month short of 13 I believe she is having another PA. Yes I am an idiot, don't be like me. I have wanted so much to stay married and do what is right for my family. I decided I would sacrifice my own spirit in order to keep our family together. I am now even more devastated than ever. However I am now ready to D. Don't be me!


----------



## Copingwithit

jasoncampbell said:


> Yes, not that I believe this, but she told me that he understood and apologized to both her and me for his part in it.
> 
> She agreed to never talk to him again without my permission. I feel like I need to find a way to enforce this... maybe I will later. I need ideas and help there.
> 
> I'm an engineer and computer guy... I have the means to tap and track computers/phones easily. I'm not sure if that is the right thing to do though.


I work in computers as well. 

I will tell you this. You better make sure you knows the laws in your state regarding some of the stuff you might be interested in doing. Because no one here telling you to do some of this stuff will be there to back you up when it goes bad for you. 

As an example you cannot wire up HER CAR. I don't care if your on the title or the registration or insurance. IF she can justify that she uses this car more then you, then it is her car. You can get locked up. 

Further some states are a 1 party state for recording conversations, but YOU personally must be part of that conversation. This means you do not have to tell the other person you are recording the conversation if your a one party state.

You cannot record a conversation between your wife and someone else as that would be considered a wire tap. Just think about those movies you see with wire taps and such. 

Keyloggers go the same route as wire taps. You cannot key log your wives account. The same is you cannot read your wives email without her permission. 

PLEASE just ask around to someone who really, really knows the laws in your state before you do something and get caught. 

Lets assume this cannot be worked out. Imagine how being arrested is going to work against you during a divorce. 

I know everyone has good intentions but trust me when I say I have arrested people in similar situations. 

At the end of the day, think about it what does it all matter ?? really ??.. You get her text messages or see the text messages. You see the phone calls. You see the facebook postings on his wall from her. 

What does it all matter because your going to have to trust her and she will have to show you that she can be trusted. 

So she has an Iphone or a smartphone and you can now track her with find my Iphone. You check the cell phone bill online and its all good. You check the house phone online and its all good. As a matter of fact you block his number on both phones. She cancels her facebook account. 

So now she goes out to the store, calls him on a pay phone and tells him to meet her at the mall tomorrow at 11AM. You track her phone and see she is at the mall as she said she would be when she called you 20 minutes ago. So now what ?

At the end of the day she has to be honest and so do you. 

I had a similar situation and it went physical and my wife was going to leave me for a guy she meet twice at a total of 6 hours and spoke online, text and phone for 3 months. 20 years relationship, 15 years married with 2 kids.

My only silver lining is she signed post-nuptial which will put her in financial ruin if she tries this again or I get fed up and leave her. It was her way of proving she loved me and wanted to be with me forever. 

Funny enough even my wife said long,long ago. Men and women cannot be friends unless one of them is gay. 

Do not call this guy. He completely has the upper hand in every way. 

I can only tell you what my wife did. In front of the Therapist she called this other man and on speaker phone told him they were done and not to contact her in any way shape or fashion or have a third person contact her in any way shape or fashion.

The only time I spoke to this other man was the next day when I noticed he called my home and would hang up, he did this 4 times. So I called him back and when he answered I pretty much said the following with my wife present:

Look lets get this straight. This isn't the middle ages. I am not forcing my wife to stay here or holding a gun to her head to stay here. If she wants to go she can go and she is standing next to me hearing me say this to you. What you need to figure out, is what I did 5 weeks ago. The fact is I cannot make her stay or go and neither can you. All we can do as men is accept what choice she makes. It's cra.ppy and it su.cks, but if we both love her it is the only choice we have. I've accepted that and you need to as well. She made her choice and that is to be with me.

But now we are going to work this out my way. She told you not to call or have anyone else call. Now I'm telling you. If I hear from you or anyone else about this again. I'm going to press charges for stalking and aggravated harassment and have you arrested and get an order of protection against you. 

He immediately said he would not call ever again or try to contact her. So far so good.

At least for me after you get emotionally beat up it makes you numb. I got to the point where I just didn't care. If she wanted to work this out then she needed to do A,B and C to make me feel I can trust her. If she doesn't well then I move on. 

I will agree that your wife will try to play down how bad it is. Women are more embarrassed then men might be. What guy cares if he is called a sl.ut or a who.re.

But again it will NEVER, NEVER get fixed without brutal honesty. 

Look it is obvious that the way you both were isn't working. You both need to completely change. You cannot be the same richard and she cannot be the same Jane for this all to work out. 

I changed and so did my wife, or at least I think we are going in that direction.

Also there is NOTHING WRONG with loving your wife. Yes my wife was intimate with another man and was going to leave me. But I'm not ashamed or embarrassed to say I love her. 

Did she go overboard to get my attention ? Yes. 

But I'm not going to turn away 20 years without at least trying to fix it. Even with a Postnup protecting my finances.


----------



## Chaparral

Copingwithit made a very good post. Re keylogging and VARs etc. In certain circumstances this can be illegal. If you plan on using them in court see an atttorney for your states and fed laws.

However, you never reveal your sources of information. The info is for you to verify the honesty of your spouse and whether or not you can trust her NC. Or for someone suspecting someone is cheating. The laws weren't written to protect cheaters and it supposedly is rarely enforced that way.

Remember do not reveal sources as you will need them again. Anyone trying to reconcile with a cheater that does not use every means available to protect his family is a fool.


----------



## heartsickpuppy

Copingwithit said:


> So she has an Iphone or a smartphone and you can now track her with find my Iphone.


Thanks Coping, not that I needed anymore proof, but i just did find IPhone and she is at OM's house right now.

I am shaking and sick to my stomach. It helps me to validate my feelings and not wonder if I had a chance to make it work!


----------



## jasoncampbell

Am I wrong in assuming that tracking her beyond the request that all passwords are open just makes me look weak and jealous? If she's going to continue contact, I'll find out either way. Do I really need to snoop?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Will_Kane

jasoncampbell said:


> Am I wrong in assuming that tracking her beyond the request that all passwords are open just makes me look weak and jealous? If she's going to continue contact, I'll find out either way. Do I really need to snoop?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You look weak if you are willing to accept a story that doesn't make any sense. You look weak if you believe it when she tells you she was not sending and receiving romantic (I love you) and sexual messages with this guy and meeting up with this guy for romantic encounters. She knows her story stinks, she wants you to drop it - it's the easy way out - but she will not respect you for dropping it. She will lose respect.

If you are going to "snoop," you really have to follow the true meaning of the word. It must be without her knowledge. If she KNOWS you are looking, she will just find other means if she wants to communicate with him. There are all kinds of ways - apps that don't leave a trace, burner phones, etc. If you employ methods that she is unaware of, you may catch her or find out things she hasn't told you.

Knowing her passwords and having access to her accounts and devices is a great idea and is something that always should be in effect. What possible messages can there be that a spouse shouldn't know about? It goes both ways.

Re-read your story as if you are reading someone else's story. Then try to find some similar situations to yours on these threads and read those.

If you don't want to "snoop," that is fine. But insist on getting the truth.

Your wife's story does not make sense. When a story does not make sense, it usually is a lie. It is theoretically possible, *but not believable*, that she didn't say "I love you" to other man or send/receive sexual messages with him, or meet up for romantic encounters. Not when you know she texted him every single day at 8am - EVERY SINGLE DAY. 221 times per day. FOR MONTHS. Your wife has to admit the truth to you.

Tell your wife you don't believe her story and ask her to take a polygraph about whether or not she said "I love you" to him or had sex with him. 

It is important to have honesty in order to reconcile - truly reconcile. How can you forgive if you don't know what you are forgiving? It will eat away at both you AND YOUR WIFE. She will not be able to be fully into healing you and the marriage until she comes clean. She must confess the truth for reconciliation to work. She hasn't done that yet.


----------



## river rat

Jason, you'll hear differing opinions on this forum re snooping. I personally don't like the idea of snooping; it made me feel dishonest. But I did it anyway. How else will you know if they've taken the affair underground? Don't assume that you will just know what's going on. It's hard to develop trust after an affair. Snooping gave me some comfort. Ultimately, the trust you must develop is in yourself.


----------



## TDSC60

jasoncampbell said:


> Am I wrong in assuming that tracking her beyond the request that all passwords are open just makes me look weak and jealous? If she's going to continue contact, I'll find out either way. Do I really need to snoop?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No it does not make you look weak. It makes you look strong and determined that you are not going to be the small little man who sits at home and does nothing while his wife is out playing the field.

A little bit of jealousy is a good thing. You have reason to suspect that something is going on outside your marriage. You would be an idiot not to try and find out what is happening by any means possible. Also you never tell anyone what snooping techniques you are using. They are for your info alone.


----------



## anonim

jasoncampbell said:


> I called EA guy a few minutes ago and offered to grab a beer and chat... we're meeting this afternoon.
> 
> Summary of conversation...
> 
> me: "In an effort to get this all out on the table. I've always known you as a stand up guy and I can see how you were there for my wife in a time of need, and I can appreciate that. I know that she values your relationship and I'd love to buy you a beer to chat so we can discuss the situation and where it is gotten to today."
> 
> him: "I'll tell you what I told her, I'm sorry for any pain this has caused. My job now is to remove myself from the equation so you two can work out what you need to. I'll certainly meet you where ever you'd like, to chat about it."
> 
> What kinds of questions do I need to bring up? What kind of posture should I take? What kind of information am I trying to get.
> 
> EA guy and I are both non-confrontational people. There is little to no chance of it escalating to a brawl, that is not my intent at all.
> 
> I feel like I need to hear his side, and feel him out for what he thinks my wife is thinking. Is that a healthy thing to know?
> 
> Am I crazy for trying to confront him in this way?


you dont show up.

you wait somewhere nearby that you can observe him. 

when he gets tired of waiting and goes to leave, you pop up and smash his head in.

Then you tell him "Stay the f*** away from my wife"


----------



## Will_Kane

jasoncampbell said:


> Am I wrong in assuming that tracking her beyond the request that all passwords are open just makes me look weak and jealous? If she's going to continue contact, I'll find out either way. Do I really need to snoop?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Also, you should realize at this point that your wife still is "in love" with the other man. She loves you but is not "in love" with you. Make sure you ask her about this, too. She is not going to fall out of love with the other man just because you found her out, and especially if she thinks you didn't find her out and are still believing her lies. 

Maybe she is thinking that she should have chosen this guy and not you all those years ago, he was the one who always wanted her and it was her destiny and fate to really be with this guy who is her soul mate.

Now she is in conflict with herself. She never thought of herself as a cheater, she abhors cheaters, yet here she is - a cheater. She does not want to be known as a cheater, something she believes is a terrible thing to be. She doesn't want her mom thinking of her as a cheater. It has to be your fault for not living up to your end of the bargain and her fault for not recognizing that other man was really "the one" for her all those years ago.

Also complicating matters is the fact that she has two children with you that she loves more than anything in the world and does not want to hurt them in any way.

Still, she feels how she feels. It will be tough to just break it off clean with other man.

What I typed above may or may not be the truth. It definitely makes a lot more sense than the story your wife has been telling you.


----------



## Tony55

jasoncampbell said:


> She has a pattern of chaos... she needs chaos in her life. What if she puts on a happy face and tricks us all into thinking this is good and what she wants and 1-2 years from now we're on to the next problem.


*I know how you can create chaos in her life my friend; you not spending another night under the same roof until she agrees to full transparency. Anything less and you'll be played until she's broken your spirit and saddles you with the hardship of insecurity from here on out.*

T


----------



## tom67

Tony55 said:


> *I know how you can create chaos in her life my friend; you not spending another night under the same roof until she agrees to full transparency. Anything less and you'll be played until she's broken your spirit and saddles you with the hardship of insecurity from here on out.*
> 
> T


Tony and Will are right. I would offer up a polygraph test. Tell her it will help you heal I'd like to see her reaction.


----------



## Machiavelli

Copingwithit said:


> I work in computers as well.
> 
> I will tell you this. You better make sure you knows the laws in your state regarding some of the stuff you might be interested in doing. Because no one here telling you to do some of this stuff will be there to back you up when it goes bad for you.
> 
> As an example you cannot wire up HER CAR. I don't care if your on the title or the registration or insurance. IF she can justify that she uses this car more then you, then it is her car. You can get locked up.
> 
> Further some states are a 1 party state for recording conversations, but YOU personally must be part of that conversation. This means you do not have to tell the other person you are recording the conversation if your a one party state.
> 
> You cannot record a conversation between your wife and someone else as that would be considered a wire tap. Just think about those movies you see with wire taps and such.
> 
> Keyloggers go the same route as wire taps. You cannot key log your wives account. The same is you cannot read your wives email without her permission.
> 
> PLEASE just ask around to someone who really, really knows the laws in your state before you do something and get caught.
> 
> Lets assume this cannot be worked out. Imagine how being arrested is going to work against you during a divorce.
> 
> I know everyone has good intentions but trust me when I say I have arrested people in similar situations.
> 
> At the end of the day, think about it what does it all matter ?? really ??.. You get her text messages or see the text messages. You see the phone calls. You see the facebook postings on his wall from her.
> 
> What does it all matter because your going to have to trust her and she will have to show you that she can be trusted.
> 
> So she has an Iphone or a smartphone and you can now track her with find my Iphone. You check the cell phone bill online and its all good. You check the house phone online and its all good. As a matter of fact you block his number on both phones. She cancels her facebook account.
> 
> So now she goes out to the store, calls him on a pay phone and tells him to meet her at the mall tomorrow at 11AM. You track her phone and see she is at the mall as she said she would be when she called you 20 minutes ago. So now what ?
> 
> At the end of the day she has to be honest and so do you.
> 
> I had a similar situation and it went physical and my wife was going to leave me for a guy she meet twice at a total of 6 hours and spoke online, text and phone for 3 months. 20 years relationship, 15 years married with 2 kids.
> 
> My only silver lining is she signed post-nuptial which will put her in financial ruin if she tries this again or I get fed up and leave her. It was her way of proving she loved me and wanted to be with me forever.
> 
> Funny enough even my wife said long,long ago. Men and women cannot be friends unless one of them is gay.
> 
> Do not call this guy. He completely has the upper hand in every way.
> 
> I can only tell you what my wife did. In front of the Therapist she called this other man and on speaker phone told him they were done and not to contact her in any way shape or fashion or have a third person contact her in any way shape or fashion.
> 
> The only time I spoke to this other man was the next day when I noticed he called my home and would hang up, he did this 4 times. So I called him back and when he answered I pretty much said the following with my wife present:
> 
> Look lets get this straight. This isn't the middle ages. I am not forcing my wife to stay here or holding a gun to her head to stay here. If she wants to go she can go and she is standing next to me hearing me say this to you. What you need to figure out, is what I did 5 weeks ago. The fact is I cannot make her stay or go and neither can you. All we can do as men is accept what choice she makes. It's cra.ppy and it su.cks, but if we both love her it is the only choice we have. I've accepted that and you need to as well. She made her choice and that is to be with me.
> 
> But now we are going to work this out my way. She told you not to call or have anyone else call. Now I'm telling you. If I hear from you or anyone else about this again. I'm going to press charges for stalking and aggravated harassment and have you arrested and get an order of protection against you.
> 
> He immediately said he would not call ever again or try to contact her. So far so good.
> 
> At least for me after you get emotionally beat up it makes you numb. I got to the point where I just didn't care. If she wanted to work this out then she needed to do A,B and C to make me feel I can trust her. If she doesn't well then I move on.
> 
> I will agree that your wife will try to play down how bad it is. Women are more embarrassed then men might be. What guy cares if he is called a sl.ut or a who.re.
> 
> But again it will NEVER, NEVER get fixed without brutal honesty.
> 
> Look it is obvious that the way you both were isn't working. You both need to completely change. You cannot be the same richard and she cannot be the same Jane for this all to work out.
> 
> I changed and so did my wife, or at least I think we are going in that direction.
> 
> Also there is NOTHING WRONG with loving your wife. Yes my wife was intimate with another man and was going to leave me. But I'm not ashamed or embarrassed to say I love her.
> 
> Did she go overboard to get my attention ? Yes.
> 
> But I'm not going to turn away 20 years without at least trying to fix it. Even with a Postnup protecting my finances.


In practicality, you can ignore this. No DA or AUSA is going to get involved in this for a family reason, unless you live in Wayne County, MI. Some states are exempting family from the usual requirements and more will probably be following. OP, you need to monitor to find out what's going. If you're too chicken to do what needs to be done, just file and get it over with.


----------



## OldWolf57

Pay attention to what Machiaville wrote.
Ther has never been a case here where a BS was arrested for recording. But most have listened and learned much more than they was told.

You seem to be thinking this woman won't lie, when you have proof she will.

Just to give you a lil insight, you said mom was her sounding board over you, your whole marriage.
If thats so, then he was more important than her own mother, bc mom said she distant herself from her too during this supposed EA.

Why is that ?? Maybe bc mom would see right thru her an know she was cheating.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing I know, but she gave you a peek.
Tell me, do most ppl getting married say you can't complete me, or you do complete me????
I mean that is why most get married. They've found the one who complete them

I won't advise one way or the other. The VETS have tried, and you question the advice, so good luck SINCERELY forgiving without knowing the full truth.


----------



## OldWolf57

Go read post 313 of TRoubleInMI thread.


----------



## jasoncampbell

thanks for all of the great insight and tough love...

here is where my head is today...

EA guy is a pathetic loser, no college degree (DW and I both have one). He can't find a woman the normal way and instead had to go after a married one at the lowest point in her life (while she was living in the hospital with a daughter being cut open multiple times for major surgery). EA guy has always been infatuated with DW, since we were both 15 DW and I have known this. DW loves the attention but knows that EA is a loser. She has always had him as a friend on the side because she likes the attention (that is always what it was before). This time it turned more serious, that's a problem.

DW feels guilty, ashamed. That is clear to me. Doesn't make it right. I'm not making excuses for her. What she has done is wrong. In the current state of our marriage, the door was open for this - I haven't been there for her. Again, still doesn't make it right.

I am not threatened by EA guy... honestly, if DW is dumb enough to leave me for him, she is downgrading her life. She is too good of a mother to do that to our children. Our children would be worse off. I would be better off [than I have been recently]

the last 24 hours DW and I have made a lot of progress. On our date last night we connected like we haven't in years. Small things. In the car I put my hand under the back of her hair to massage her head. I realized I hadn't done this since before our first daughter was born. I wasn't looking at her while doing this, but later in the evening she said that she was crying while I did that (asking if I noticed), she followed up saying that it had brought back a flood of emotions from our good years earlier in our relationship and marriage.

I'm in a better place today mentally. DW hugged me today in a way I haven't been hugged in years. I know this is a tough road to recovery, but as the first MC brought up... we had issues WAY before EA guy got into the picture. I think I could be happier outside of this marriage... in fact, I know I would be the way its been the last three years. However, we have a connection/bond that goes back to our childhood that we've lost along the way. If we get that back and I (we) are happy together who knows. I may be an idiot for trying, but it is worth another year of pain to try and make this work for my kids. 

If my wife and I are capable of growing from this counseling to the point where we are happy (something neither of us has been for a while)... maybe. I'm never going to settle for what we've been doing, ever again. This loveless marriage we've been living.

I am not perfect. I am an inactive listener, I need to learn to stop that. I'm also an arguer, over analyze, always talking way too much instead of listening. I'm an INTJ. My wife sees my over analyzing as manipulation in all of our confrontations, I think. What I do know is that I am a much better man than EA guy, a better husband and I think my wife is smart enough to figure that out along the way. If not, oh well.

I can't end this relationship without giving it a shot to work, I'd regret it. Our 1 year old has a difficult difficult difficult life ahead of her. What she has gone through in the last year makes anything else in life seem petty... including whatever DW and I are dealing with.

Right now, focusing on the darkness and whatever has/had transpired prior to my OP is only going to sabotage any chance of moving past this.

My guard is up... but I'm gonna do the best I can. MC again on Tuesday that I'm actually looking forward to.


----------



## keko

Stop saying EA guy. Call him OM. It'll be easier to follow your posts when you realize it was a PA guy all along.


----------



## jasoncampbell

what does OM stand for? (outside marriage?)

still learning the lingo here


----------



## keko

Other Man.


----------



## walkonmars

No one can fault you for trying to maintain a marriage. Especially one with young children. You WANT to make it work. This can be done - but there can never be a third person in ANY capacity. Don't be too hasty to place all the blame on the idiot from high school. He may have gone fishing but the fish took the bait - the emotional bait for sure. 

Women can be loving mothers and unfaithful wives. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. 

You say your guard is up. Okay fair enough. You can't just shrug your shoulders and say w/e will be will be and expect everything to fall into place. 

Do your marriage a favor. Read the whole thread again. Print it out. Highlight some posts. Keep them in mind as you proceed. 

Things CAN work out. But they just won't happen on their own. Particularly given the investment in texts/time your wife has made with HS bud. Be sure this is addressed in MC. The topic at MC should never be "how you screwed up to cause this" or "how the EA isn't a major issue"

Update your thread as needed for support, to muse, or vent.


----------



## AlphaHalf

> I am not threatened by EA guy


That man was the cause of your wife lying to you, while swearing over your children that it is not an EA. Don't underestimate him because of his situation. Look at the damage he caused your marriage. Oh yes,...He is a threat.


----------



## Malaise

*I am not threatened by EA guy... honestly, if DW is dumb enough to leave me for him, she is downgrading her life*. 

Jason

These are famous last words.

If you don't feel feel threatened then you won't react in the right way.

You'll become complacent, casual, and that's not the way to be.

Neither is being hypervigilant 24/7.

Never underestimate a woman 'in love' and the other man.

If you want to keep your marriage


----------



## warlock07

decent guys don't have affair with married women..Ever see women who wait to have sex with a guy they are genuinely interested but have no problem with random ONS or casual sex? Or women who are more inhibited with their SO after marriage while she was very open sexually with her scummy ex-bf ? Do you know why stuff like this happens?

read this thread

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/54125-interesting-visit-oms-wife.html


----------



## NextTimeAround

jasoncampbell said:


> thanks for all of the great insight and tough love...
> 
> here is where my head is today...
> 
> EA guy is a pathetic loser, no college degree (DW and I both have one).


He's got your wife right where he wants her.......and you don't. I don't how that's being a loser.

A lot of people have college degrees and still can't find jobs. In fact, in a recession, it makes it even harder for them to find jobs because they are deemed "overqualified." BFD


----------



## aug

jasoncampbell said:


> EA guy is a pathetic loser, no college degree (DW and I both have one). He can't find a woman the normal way and instead had to go after a married one at the lowest point in her life (while she was living in the hospital with a daughter being cut open multiple times for major surgery). EA guy has always been infatuated with DW, since we were both 15 DW and I have known this. DW loves the attention but knows that EA is a loser. She has always had him as a friend on the side because she likes the attention (that is always what it was before). This time it turned more serious, that's a problem.
> 
> DW feels guilty, ashamed. That is clear to me. Doesn't make it right. I'm not making excuses for her. What she has done is wrong. In the current state of our marriage, the door was open for this - I haven't been there for her. Again, still doesn't make it right.
> 
> I am not threatened by EA guy... honestly, *if DW is dumb enough to leave me for him, she is downgrading her life.She is too good of a mother to do that to our children.* Our children would be worse off. I would be better off [than I have been recently]



And yet there she was with the OM despite being a good mother.

Never underestimate the emotional factor.


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## jasoncampbell

Decorum said:


> JC,
> 
> Allow me to jump in here during the pause in posting.
> 
> ...


You are correct in absolutely everything you've said here. I wish I could print this post out and show it to my wife...


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## Acabado

jason
My wife had another loser, still married by a miracle. After three years surfing infidelity sites I've found it's not only common but the norm the "affair down" thing. The explanations for this are discussed very often.


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## gemjo

Hi Jason,

I don't know about EA, as such, my H had 3 ONS before I found out he had ever been unfaithful....

His reasons, and in hindsight they make sense to me on some level. He wasn't getting the attention from me at home, we have 4 kids and very busy lives, he didn't help out at home, believing his pay pack was all he needed to provide...so he didn't get a lot of sexual attention from me, mainly because I Was physically worn out working full time and doing everything in the home single handedly. I moaned and nagged I needed help, it fell on deaf ears and we kind of lost site of one another. On three seperate occasions women showed interest in him he made the most of it. Drink and smoking weed helped him to do the wrong thing, but lets not blame being drunk.....This happened at work conferences.....he never thought I'd find out. 

When I came across evidence he'd cheated on me last year, it was regarding a cheat that happened in 2008. I was devastated, he saw my devastation....but he still couldn't find the words to come completely clean....we attempted 1 whole year of false reconciliation. I hoped it was true R, but always had a doubt I didnt had the whole truth. I love my husband very much, and I do believe he loves me....even though he went outside our marriage for something he thought he was lacking at the time.

The point of my post.....your wife will not come clean unless she has no choice....you will want to believe her, you want to believe you have something special....it took the booking of a poly to get my H to fully come clean and admit to two further ONS. One years ago at conference, and one in Feb 2011. Just last year.

He has now offered to sit a poly, offered to book it and he appears to be deeply remorseful....but even now I will not take his words or actions at face value. How can I?

How can you believe your W. My H cheated and didn't even find any of these women attractive, I have seen them, they are not!......but they were a 'fix' for him at that moment in time.

Firstly you need to get out of BS fog and think as clearly as possible....your wife might be a loving mother, and you might have took your eye off the ball, and you might have lost sight of one another whilst you worked your ars.e off.....but you must be logical....your wife has been betraying you, and even if you can rationalise it, it doesn't mean it was ok.

I believed my H cheated once and that was painful enough, whilst members here posted to me that it was probably trickle truth and I would probably experience at least one further DD, I thought 'no, we are different'. Unfortunately I was wrong, these guys on TAM have much experience......please do yourself and ultimately your marriage the biggest favour......listen to them!

Only when your wife has cleared out all her secrets can you fully start to R. It is impossible and a lie to attempt R if she is hiding anything....so do whatever it takes to find out as much as you can....

Did you ever look at the hundreds of daily texts Or emails yet?
You need to turn detective, and fast!


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## warlock07

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...l-affair-also-physical-dont-know-what-do.html

read this post, especially the part about OM


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## carmen ohio

Dear jc,

Forgive me for raining on your parade but I fear that you have moved much to quickly from discovering your W's affair (and I trust that you now realize that your W is having an affair) to concluding that you and she are on the road to recovery. Consider the following:



jasoncampbell said:


> thanks for all of the great insight and tough love...
> 
> here is where my head is today...
> 
> EA guy is a pathetic loser, no college degree (DW and I both have one). He can't find a woman the normal way and instead had to go after a married one at the lowest point in her life (while she was living in the hospital with a daughter being cut open multiple times for major surgery). *You're underestimating the OM and overestimating your W. He seem like a "loser" to you but he's the one your W is in love with right now.* EA guy has always been infatuated with DW, since we were both 15 DW and I have known this. DW loves the attention but knows that EA is a loser. She has always had him as a friend on the side because she likes the attention (that is always what it was before). This time it turned more serious, that's a problem. *"More serious"? "A problem"? How about "the most serious problem you are ever likely to face and likely to end you marriage if you don't take effective measures right now."*
> 
> DW feels guilty, ashamed. That is clear to me. *Really, on what basis is it "clear"? Because she's said a few nice things to you in the last few days? Haven't you learned yet how capable she is of deceiving you? Are you really so gullible?* Doesn't make it right. I'm not making excuses for her. *Yes, you are.* What she has done is wrong. In the current state of our marriage, the door was open for this - I haven't been there for her. *That's an excuse.* Again, still doesn't make it right.
> 
> I am not threatened by EA guy... honestly, if DW is dumb enough to leave me for him, she is downgrading her life. She is too good of a mother to do that to our children. *Most wives who have affairs are good mothers. Why do you think your W is any different? Why are you putting her on a pedestal after what she has done to you?* Our children would be worse off. I would be better off [than I have been recently] *This is pure bravado on your part. If you really thought you would be better off without her, you would have reacted immediately and decisively after first learning of her infidelity by telling her to get the heck out (and, in all likelihood, if you had done this and if your W is a smart a woman as you think she is, she would have begged you to forgive her and you would now be on the road to reconciliation). Instead, you had to ask others what to do and, after being told by numerous responders that you need to take strong measures, apparently still haven't done so. Why? Because, despite your tough talk, your not ready to stand up to her.*
> 
> the last 24 hours DW and I have made a lot of progress. On our date last night we connected like we haven't in years. Small things. In the car I put my hand under the back of her hair to massage her head. I realized I hadn't done this since before our first daughter was born. I wasn't looking at her while doing this, but later in the evening she said that she was crying while I did that (asking if I noticed), she followed up saying that it had brought back a flood of emotions from our good years earlier in our relationship and marriage. *You're really kidding yourself if you think you're on the road to reconciliation so quickly and with so little effort on your W's part. It's easy for her to say a few nice things to you and shed a few tears. Why do you take this as proof that she is truly remorseful, is over the OM and wants to fix her marriage? Haven't you learned anything about what she is capable of? Even worse, by reacting like this, you are teaching her that your love is cheap. All she need do is throw you a few crumbs and you get all warm and fuzzy over her.*
> 
> I'm in a better place today mentally. DW hugged me today in a way I haven't been hugged in years. I know this is a tough road to recovery, but as the first MC brought up... we had issues WAY before EA guy got into the picture. I think I could be happier outside of this marriage... in fact, I know I would be the way its been the last three years. However, we have a connection/bond that goes back to our childhood that we've lost along the way. If we get that back and I (we) are happy together who knows. *Oh please, grow up. You don't want to rekindle the feelings she had for you when you were kids. You want her to be hot for you. That means acting like a man, not some heartsick boy.* I may be an idiot for trying, but it is worth another year of pain to try and make this work for my kids. *You're not an idiot for trying but you will be one if you don't get your act together and let your W know that she will only get one chance to come clean, break off with the OM and start proving to you -- by her actions, not just her words -- that she wants a second chance.*
> 
> If my wife and I are capable of growing from this counseling to the point where we are happy (something neither of us has been for a while)... maybe. I'm never going to settle for what we've been doing, ever again. This loveless marriage we've been living. *That's the spirit! More of this kind of talk and less of the rugsweeping, excuse making and avoiding the tough steps you need to take to get your W back.*
> 
> I am not perfect. I am an inactive listener, I need to learn to stop that. I'm also an arguer, over analyze, always talking way too much instead of listening. I'm an INTJ. My wife sees my over analyzing as manipulation in all of our confrontations, I think. *Another example of you making excuses for her. Now is not the time to start confessing your "failings" to her, that should only happen if and after she PROVES she is really sorry for what she did.* What I do know is that I am a much better man than EA guy, a better husband and I think my wife is smart enough to figure that out along the way. *If your W really believes that you're so much better than the OM, why is she having an affair with him?* If not, oh well.
> 
> I can't end this relationship without giving it a shot to work, I'd regret it. Our 1 year old has a difficult difficult difficult life ahead of her. What she has gone through in the last year makes anything else in life seem petty... including whatever DW and I are dealing with.* OK, so stop rugsweeping, stop making excuses for her and start taking the tough actions that will give you the best chance to get your W back, save your marriage and protect your children.*
> 
> Right now, focusing on the darkness and whatever has/had transpired prior to my OP is only going to sabotage any chance of moving past this. *Wrong, what will sabotage your future is not taking strong and effective steps now.*
> 
> My guard is up... but I'm gonna do the best I can. *I'm sure you'll do the best you can. The question is, will you do what you need to do?* MC again on Tuesday that I'm actually looking forward to.


Your situation is actually worse than that of a lot of guys who come to TAM after learning that their wives have been unfaithful. Your W is having an affair with a lifelong friend. Getting her away from him will be harder than if she only met him recently. Are you doing what you need to do?

Let's take inventory:

(1) Have you asked her to tell you exactly what happened between her and the OM? If yes, do you believe she has revealed the whole truth and on what basis do you believe her (have you seen all her e-mails and text messages, is she willing to take a polygraph test)? In almost all cases, when caught, a wayward wife gives up the truth in small doses and only when forced to do so. Failure to get it all out in the open BEFORE you begin the reconciliation process will only complicate things later. As long as she is keeping secrets from you about her affair, you do not have all the information you need to decide if reconciliation is even possible.

(2) Has she written the OM a letter instructing him not to contact her again? If not, on what basis do you believe she really intends to break it off with him? If you've asked her to do this and she refused or has delayed, you can bet that it is not over between them. In that case, you are foolish to proceed with reconciliation. If you haven't asked her, why not? Do you really think she's going to end it with him once and for all if you don't make this a necessary condition for reconciliation?

(3) Has she agreed to be an open book to you, let you see all her future e-mails and text messages and not go out with others if you are not present? If she hasn't, then her claims that she wants to save her marriage and all of her sweet words and gestures are worthless. What she probably will do is take her affair underground and try to do a better job than she has so far in hiding it from you.

IMO, you are still in shock from learning about your W's affair and are "rugsweeping" your problem and deluding yourself into thinking that you are on the road to reconciliation. In all likelihood, you are not nearly there yet and probably never will be if you don't get to the bottom of things and learn now (by giving her "tough love") whether your wife is truly remorseful and prepared to do what she needs to do to rebuild your marriage.

Don't give up but don't be a chump. Understand that the only way you are likely to save your marriage is if your W really believes that you are prepared to end it. This is your only bargaining chip. Begging her to end her affair, trying to be a "better" husband to win back her love, and/or ignoring her continuing transgressions will only make you look weak and unworthy in her eyes. To be really worthy of her (or any woman's) love, you must act like a man and real men don't tolerate unfaithfulness. If you man up, maybe, just maybe, she will see what she is throwing away and beg you to take her back. But if she doesn't, then at least you will have begun to transform yourself into the kind of man some other, more worthy woman would like to be with.

When you decide to really confront her and tell her that it's over unless she starts to change, be firm but calm. Know what you're going to say and keep your emotions under control. Don't argue. Just say your peace, listen to what she says in response and then say, "you know what I expect of you." Then go watch a football game or movie on TV to show her that you've already started to get over her. If later she tries to wriggle out of anything, again, don't argue, just keep telling her what she needs to do. Start working out, buy some new cloths and get some new interests that get you out of the house a few times a week. Give her time to realize that you've already begun to move on. Do this and you will know soon enough whether she really want to save her marriage.

I and everybody else here are hoping for a good ending for you, but only you can make it happen. Good luck.

P.S.: Check out Blog | Married Man Sex Life. There's a lot of good information there about how men need to act to win and then keep a woman's heart.


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## jasoncampbell

Took me a while to track this down. Glad I found it. It's been a long 10 months of self reflection and I can finally dissect the process and steps involved. I feel more self aware, and it's improved my relationship not only with my wife, but everyone else in my life.

I found out A LOT more, and things got significantly worse before they started to get better. December was the low point (a month after this thread).

We are still together and both agree that we are happier in the marriage than we've been. Not sure if anyone here is into Myer-Briggs, but it has been an incredible resource for me. My wife is an ESFJ, I am an INTJ. Communication had been our key breakdown. It's been an interesting study to try and understand the part that played from both sides. Expectations not being met. Disappointment not being shared. Assuming the other was working against you, when really they were just as equally frustrated...

Not excuses, or free passes. We've both learned a lot, and have a lot to learn. Still difficult things to work through, but we're on a path that we both feel is healthiest for our daughters... if or when that ever changes of course we'll reevaluate.


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## jasoncampbell

Two years later... we are divorced.

A few weeks after my final post to this forum I stopped pretending everything was ok, and started pulling threads. I reached out to a contact I found on my ex-wife's phone when it all started. It was a message from a guy named Josh simply stating "Can't play this weekend, maybe Monday." which at the time she had convinced me was a creepy guy who wouldn't stop sending her disrespectful messages. At the time I asked her if she didn't mind me taking care of it, so I copied his phone number to mine and texted him to leave her alone. (keep in mind, this isn't the emotional affair guy, it's another one)

That week I decided to reach back to the guy and told him that my wife (at the time) and I had been in counseling for months and I was trying to help her cope. I told him what she told me she thought of him, and was interested to hear his side if the story. Amazing what kind of information you can get from a guy who was called a creep who wouldn't leave her alone. He didn't divulge everything but said he felt like a therapist to her. That when they met she wasn't wearing her ring and she didn't tell him she was married. He said she reciprocated in the playful games they were engaged in.

I confronted her about this and she played it off again, as his fault. I pushed more and she finally spilled the beans. She slept with this guy 2 days after meeting him in 2007, just 2 years into our marriage, while she was on vacation at her mothers beach. They continued to have a sexting relationship over skype and phone from that day forward. He knew nothing about the guy she was in an emotional affair with John, and he said they talked all the time about how she planned to leave me (probably his own excuse r rationalization for fraternizing with a married woman). She also told me at that point she had still been in contact with John, the emotional affair guy, that started this whole thing. She had lied about cutting off all contact with him and they set up secret e-mails and bought separate phones to still communicate. At that point she asked me if I'd consider an open marriage (for context she's is, on the surface, an extremely conservative Christian). She said she didn't want anyone to know, and encouraged me to find someone else. Ugh.

The reason she had stopped seeing our marriage counselor individually is because that came up in her session and the counselor said it was a conflict for her to advise us on the marriage and advise her on her continued infidelity. Makes sense that a month prior my marriage counselor told me "I think you finally have everything you need to make a decision here..." instead of her usual pep talk about working through everything.

For 5 days I swallowed my pride to see what else she would tell me, stating I needed everything if I was even going to consider staying. She openly discussed a 3rd guy she had started seeing while we were engaged, 10 years prior. She admitted to introducing our daughters to two of these 3 men and that she had physical affairs with all three, that none of them knew about the other. She also informed me she had lied to her own counselor about me, convincing each other that I had Asperger Syndrome.

I am convinced my ex-wife has Borderline Personality Disorder. She never apologized for any of her actions and over the next few days started to divulge more information about these men, speaking about them as if they had raped her. I stopped her in the middle of one of them "Why on earth would you take your 2 year old daughter in 2011 to meet a man who raped you in 2009? And then why on earth would you meet him again after privately so he could do it again?" Yes, she was trying to convince me that this guy, Josh, had raped her twice and that she never actually committed adultery because of it.

I found a 4th guy on October 1st 2013 and decided I had enough to realize this had nothing to do with me. I had been beating myself up for months, feeling like a failure, trying to fix things. That afternoon I saw a lawyer, and he said if she was speaking openly about stuff to try and get her on recording (legal in the state of Virginia). I went home that night and asked her to explain everything again one more time. She explained everything in detail for 20 minutes, which at the culmination I stood up, took my ring off and said "lets make this as easy for our daughters as possible... I can never trust you again, and I never will."

Immediately after the separation I started feeling better about myself. I started to realize just how co-dependent this relationship was. I started to see my part in that and I started to heal. I realized that nothing good can come from trying to analyze the behavior. I also quickly realized that expecting her to be truthful and play fair after divorce was just silly after everything she did in the marriage. I became strategic, yet fair, with everything and it's served me well, as well as my daughters. I wanted so badly to blast to the world what she had done to me but I only told my close friends and family. I don't need my daughters growing up knowing these things about their mother. I started protecting myself, mentally and emotionally. Focused on my daughters. Reconnected with my family and friends, everyone that I had been pushed from my life, in an effort to work on the marriage.

I am a better father today for all of this. 

Broken people do not need to be fixed, they need to be supported so they can fix themselves. My entire marriage was a struggle because I attached to someone who I thought would always appreciate me standing by her, through everything bad that would come her way. I stood by way too long, but I'm glad I got the answers in the end. I walked away from it with clarity.


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## the guy

Thanks for the update.


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## jasoncampbell

the guy said:


> Thanks for the update.


Sure thing! The reason I looked up this post was to document. I'm created a folder and printing out everything adding it next to a diary I've kept from the time. I'm not sure why I felt the need. Maybe that's still a healing process for me.

I've protected my daughters from almost all of this. My 6 year old is extremely intuitive and I think she's going to get to the bottom of this as a teen. However, something she said to me last week really struck me... I didn't even know how to respond. We were out driving near the old house and she said "I miss that house, mommy says you left us and that's why we had to sell it."

Someday when they are older, if they have questions... I still have to resolve how I'm going to deal with that.

For the moment I corrected my daughter and told her that wasn't correct. I said that mommy and daddy decided to no longer be married, because we were unhappy, but that neither one of us left them or the house. I stressed that despite mommy and daddy not wanting to be married anymore that we both still love her and her sister. My goal is to not have my girls be stuck between things. They should never feel they have to choose or hate either of us.

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on how to deal with this. My ex-wife is a pro at playing emotionally manipulative games and I'm sure my daughters are going to get a lot of passive negativity about me, all stuff she can have deniability (I'm envisioning my ex driving by the house with the girls and sighing... "hmmmm, I loved that house, remember how much we loved that house." and waiting for them to ask why we moved and then telling them "oh, well daddy moved away so we had to.")

How does one maintain a neutral stance in the best interest of his daughters while not getting walked over with situations like that? I'd really appreciate peoples thoughts or ideas. I think I'm gathering this information to have evidence for the future... but I can't imagine reading this thread about my own mother. I don't think that is the answer. I hope that my daughters just grow up trusting me and realizing that I always tell the truth. That they feel safe and when conflict arises and they get conflicting stories, they'll already have a sense of how emotional mommy is, and that she bends facts to be a victim.


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## hospitality

Thank you so much for the update! I wish I knew how or what to say regarding what to say to your kids except that it's typical for a cheating spouse to place blame on the loyal spouse so don't dwell on it.

Also, thank you for the update because lurkers will read this post and see that a lot of what people post on TAM is excellent advice.It's great advice because most cheaters follow the exact same pattern. I hate to say it but I've read so many posts on TAM over the years I (or a lot of other regulars on TAM) could have written your wife's infidelity details just from reading your first few posts without reading your update. For some reason a lot of marriage counselors just get snowballed by their clients and give the worst possible advice.

A really close friend of mine was dealing with the same situation you are dealing with for almost a year before he told anyone they were in counseling. Unfortunately he didn't know about TAM nor could his counselor truly see what was going on in the relationship. It was all the typical you need to be more attentive, more loving etc for over a year. The first time he gave me the details I spelled out his wife's infidelity based on the facts he gave me in detail. I was able to do that because guys like you took the time to share the details of what they were going through a the time they were going through it, receive the advice from members and return to share the true story. OPs like you saved my friend at least another year or two of being snow balled by his STBXW. I wish you the best and thank you for sharing!


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## happyman64

Glad you came back Jason.

Wait until your kids are older before you give them a more appropriate
Detailed answer.

Your youngest might not even remember.

Keep your Ex at arms length. Because she is sick.

HM


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## Dyokemm

JC,

Wow.....your ex is a truly manipulative, lying traitor.

I am very happy for you that you are rid of her.

Did you ever expose her many A's to her family, especially her mom who you have also know since childhood?

If not, I would consider doing so for one reason at this point.....your xWW seems like she is going to poison your children against you and blameshift the D and collapse of their family on to you.

If her family knows the truth, they may be able to check or minimize her attempts to do this by holding her accountable.....especially her mom since you have known her so long and your xWW is close to her.

Of course, this assumes that your MIL did not know they whole time about her cheating....you say they were close and at least one of her sex fests happened at her mom's beach house.

If necessary, you may have to take steps to prevent xWW alienating your daughters sooner rather than later.

No need for graphic details...but if you continue to hear blame statements about you from your kids, I think you should simply explain it to them this way.

"You know that being M means a mom and dad are not supposed to have other boyfriends and girlfriends. Well, mommy decided she wanted to have other boyfriends than dad....so we couldn't stay M anymore.".....and then explain that it had nothing to do with them, and that you and mom still love them very much.

Don't allow her years of poisoning your daughters against you before you try to tell them what really happened.

By that time, your xWW's lies may have become the lens through which they view everything you say and do....they will disbelieve you and think you are telling disgusting lies about their mom to cover your own guilt...they might end up despising you more.


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## aine

Sorry it ended in divorce but you sound so much happier and getting on with your life.

perhaps you should have a word with your ExW and tell her that the kids are going to grow up one day and be adults and would she like it if they knew the whole truth about her activities. If not, you would advise her to stop painting you in a bad light, the kids will soon figure out the nature of her character, so whose word will they believe first?


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## jasoncampbell

Letter

===

DL/CJ,

I have heard from (A) and am seeing signs of emotional confusion as she grows based on conversations she is having with both Carly and I about our divorce. (A) has been asking questions about what happened, she is a very direct girl and not afraid to ask specifics - (A) is very inquisitive and very logical. I know my daughter - she is amazingly smart, even smarter than all of us. She is incredibly intuitive and pieces together complex things. She is very big into fairness and following rules. What amazes me most about (A) is that she's never talked about being sad we are no longer together... I think she grew up seeing our dynamic and she sees affection in other places in my life, with my parents, and my siblings, and talks about wanting me to be happy. She says the same of Carly, which I love to hear. It's clear how much she loves us both, but she is compartmentalizing a lot here, she should not be in that role, she should be a child receiving love from her two parents equally. She is a child, and should not be acting like an adult already, so easy to move into this and I know someday she is going to search for the truth, and if Carly and I both are not telling the same story (that it was for the best, a mutual decision that made us both happier)... she will seek it out, what really happened. She will not like passive suggestive language or guilt. I've avoided telling her details instead stating that mommy and daddy chose to no longer be married because we were not happy together, but that we both love her and (I) no matter what and neither one of us left them - we separated and divorced to make each other happier and to produce happier homes for both of them. 

However, direct language (A) is quoting Carly as saying is making it very difficult for me to avoid sharing 6 year level details about what really happened - and what mommy didn't do to keep us together (promises we make to God when we get married), as the girls get older. If it comes to a situation where (A) does not feel we both decided together to split, for their best interest, then I will be forced to reveal to her as she gets older what really happened, and how I fought to no end to make this work despite everything. I want the girls to have a happy, loving and safe relationship with Carly... so please help me to ensure we don't end up in that situation. Whatever issues Carly and I have as we sort this out after divorce should never be exposed to the girls, even passively. They need to feel safe loving and caring for both of us as their parents. They should never feel a need to pick sides or choose.

I avoid blame, guilt, and manipulation with the girls at all cost, because I know from researching spouses who cheat tend to vilify the ex who leaves the marriage in an attempt to cover up their own guilt in what they did to destruct it, it's deflection of their own accountability for their decisions. This leads children to grow up confused and in the end they figure it out and then struggle with their own relationships never trusting anyone, because they were lied to as children by the ones they loved. That is the whole reason for this e-mail to you, to protect my daughters from permanently living in a world where they fear commitment and love because of abandonment. They are at very critical ages right now, learning about the world and how some tell the truth and others don't. They are learning about people who do good by others and those who use people for their own gain. They are learning about those who step up and take control of their own lives and those who are always in ruts blaming others for their situation. 

Childhood psychology 101 shows that Daughters learn to feel valued, safe and secure from their fathers (that's their internal peace), they learn what love is from him... but they learn their morals and how they view and treat people through their mother (their character) - mom teachers them to be a good person, and much of who they are when they grow up is based on that relationship. The way you accomplish a healthy step after what we've been through is by emphasizing taking accountability for actions, owning up to mistakes and looking at the positives, moving forward. Carly needs to take accountability for her infidelity herself - has she ever admitted to you two she did it? Has she ever apologized for throwing your lives upside down because of it? She's never once apologized to me... which is she ever did would go a long way towards trusting her again. All I get from her is a sense she doesn't think she is the reason her marriage failed. She had a man standing beside her through an affair, and she still wouldn't accept responsibility for it. Our marriage counselor told me in August 2013 that Carly was never going to be trustworthy, at the time I didn't know it, but she knew Carly was still seeing John and keeping it from me. 

Anyway, Carly doesn't need to dwell on it, but the absolute worst thing she can do is blame others, particularly me and the men she was with. Owning mistakes and telling others that you are sorry, is a way to move past pain. I've been working on this with (A) and I'm seeing amazing results. She apologizes to her sister when she accidentally falls on her, or spills milk on her. Rather than explaining how the situation caused the mistake, she is taking ownership for it. I'm also teaching (A) to apologize on her own, she doesn't need other people to stand next to her while she does it. I see her smiling now when she does it. She's becoming more empathetic and recognizing her actions have impacts on others, she cares about.

The girls should hear nothing but love from us towards them and acceptance of each other being happy in our own lives. I know that Divorce is a serious, serious matter, and God does not approve of it. I also know that you guys do not want to believe that Carly desecrated her marriage vows (instead focusing on her stories of what I did or didn't do to explain her actions), it wasn't just John, and it wasn't one time, she slept with multiple men, over our 10 year relationship and marriage. So that conflict creates a scenario where you think I am in the wrong for leaving Carly, because you don't want to believe she cheated on me. I know you both were pained by similar situations as I have been, cheaters destroy families. I want Carly to grow from this and become better, I don't want her to attract another white knight, coming in to save her from her pain. She will never be happy or healthy in that. I want her to be happy and find a relationship she can mold healthy for our daughters sake. A relationship where she can show them what true love and affection is all about, trust and most of all respect. They need to see that in Carly to ever expect men to respect them.

CJ, 
Last we spoke you asked me not to share details because you said you knew it all. You did not, because I know DonnaLynn didn't even know all of the details. My goal is not to cause Carly any pain, I need her to be healthy and happy so the girls can grow up the same, but I feel she will benefit from her parents knowing the whole truth, so she can stop suppressing her part in this and blaming others. She is not a victim.

This all came out the week we separated. I asked Carly to share what her "secrets" were as she referred to them that summer stating "if we need to resolve something we need to do it before we move into the house." My assessment is that Carly assumed that telling me the truth after we moved in would make it easier on us.

1) November 8th 2012 I checked our phone records and discovered hundreds of daily texts to John C. dating back months, as well as an average of 30 minutes a day phone calls, usually at night. From 2012-2013 Carly would meet with John at an abandoned parking lot in Springfield after her classes. I later confirmed she would skip class to meet with him. On November 9th we attended our first marriage counselling session, where Carly promised both the counselor and I she would stop communicating with John entirely. On November 13th, Carly notified me she would be getting home late from class, and she wanted to know the grocery list. I confirmed with a friend that she had driven to the same location, an abandoned factory building (8000 Forbes Pl Suite 102 Springfield, VA 22151) and she was in a car with a man. I called Carly, and she didn't answer. I called John and he didn't answer. I texted Carly "911, call me immediately" and she called. I asked her why she was doing this, and she got angry and said this will never work if I don't trust her. I told her I knew exactly where she was and asked her to hand to phone to John...after I asked a second time, she did. I spoke with John for 5 minutes about how how military integrity and honor works. Just a few days prior I had talked to John on the phone and he said he would stop communicating with Carly, for the girls sake, to respect us working through things. The REAL reason I took my ring off on October 1st 2013 was not because of the other men below, but because that day Carly told me she had set up a fake account and was still communicated with John and she met him also.

2) One weekend morning in December 2013 I noticed a pop-up message on our home computer. Carly had left herself signed into Facebook. It was from a phone number to her messaging app and had no name, just a phone number. The message read "Sorry I can't play this weekend, I'll get back to you Monday." I figured this was John and so I called Carly crying. I asked her what this was and she said "Oh, that... is Josh. He is this creepy guy I met at OBX who won't leave me alone." I asked her to come home immediately. I was shaking, not doing well. I was so traumatized by everything to that point I didn't know what to think. I was relieved in a way it wasn't John. When she got home we went into a private room, away from the girls and she told me this was a man who wouldn't stop harassing her, she met him at OBX and he would send naked photos of himself to her. I told her "Do you mind if I write him in order to stop this." She gave me his phone number. I texted him "Hi Josh, this is Eric... if you ever message my wife again, I'm going to come find you and you do not want that." He replied "whoa, sorry you won't hear from me again." I moved on believing Carly's story. That last week of September I thought about it again and the whole thing didn't make sense. I reached out to Josh, because I still had the number in my phone. I told him what Carly described him as and was amazed at how well spoken and intelligent of a guy he was. He wrote me back staying that Carly and him met in 2007 while she was at the beach (vacation with the Sawyers). She had come into his surf shop and flirted with him behind the counter, asking for surfing lessons. Carly requested an evening off and he showed her around town. On September 29th I confronted Carly with this information and she told me she made a mistake and ended up at his house that night (2 days after they met) and had sex. They both said that Carly wasn't wearing her ring. Josh mentioned that he had met (A). Carly told me that in 2009 she took (A) to meet Josh in Tysons. Josh asked her to come next time "without the kid" so Carly got her mother to watch (A) and she went. Carly says she wanted to prove to herself she could hang out with this guy without sleeping with him. They ended up sleeping together again. Carly said you did not know what she was doing when you were watching (A)... she said she told you she was going to urn some errands. On September 30th, Carly confirmed these stories and filled in more pieces when I asked how long they were in touch. She said from 2007 till fall 2012 (when John became more important) Carly and Josh would skype and video chat. Carly would watch Josh performing sexual acts and she would often reveal herself to Josh after showers. They both described the relationship as sexually charged and not emotional. Since Carly told me she no longer talked to Josh and Josh confirmed that after he received my text he never communicated with her again. I was willing to forgive her for this.

3) September 30th 2013, I discovered Carly slept with a guy name Jamie while we were engaged. This is the one Carly admitted to later herself, after a second mutual friend confirmed it. Jamie was a guy she met in her marketing co-ed fraternity. He was the reason we broke up for a week the year prior, Spring Break of 2004. As of spring 2005 they were secretly physically involved with one another. I could never confirm is they stayed in touch after we got married. 

4) I also discovered inappropriate communication with Chris, a friend of Carly's from HS. They would use language like "babe" and "love you" "miss you". Also Carly would talk to Chris about how unhappy she was being married, wanting to escape and party like every other girl in her 20's did. Chris, in my opinion, always was a good guy. I think if him and I had known each other better he would have told me. Carly was searching for escape, she always has. DonnaLynn, you remember that night I called you in 2008 at 2am crying and asking why your daughter was out with Chris at a concert and not home with her husband? She got home, drunk at 3:30am that night and later told me she was driving Chris and 3 of his friend home, that lives an hour away.

On October 1st 2013 Carly and I talked, for 21 minutes and 27 seconds, through everything above as she described it all in much more detail than is listed. Carly filled in much of what I was missing. In this conversation she also mentioned that she had violated the counselling by continuing to see John, stating that it had prevented her from really working on our marriage. She said she was still confused about John and me and didn't know what to do. I told her I was leaving the marriage because I could no longer raise daughters who would respect me while she was unclear about what she wanted to do. Carly asked if I would consider an open marriage, where we would stay married but have hidden relationships with others. I was horrified.

I do not need to get all psychological here, but I want to be clear. Carly has a very serious unresolved problem with her father. I believe that Don was never there for her and he did some horrible things, but I think Carly harbors this love/hate with him that creates a scenario where she cannot really accept herself and allow herself to be loved. There are ways to heal from that, half involved fathers are even worse than absent ones. She needs to stop treating him like a child. She is after attention to feel validated for the lack of support she received from her biological father growing up. I always encouraged Carly to confront him, but she was horrified to. Maybe that isn't the correct answer. Honestly, this is none of my business anymore, but I have spend the last two years reading dozens of books on psychology and childhood development. I have talked to everyone I know who had divorced parents, particularly ones who cheated. I see the same thing over and over...

A parent who raises children to hate the other parent ends up damaging the child for life. This hate doesn't have to be direct, it's actually even more damaging when it's subtle and passive. Suggestive. The parents who raise children that way also also end up creating a codependent issue were the child never fully is prepared to enter the real world and stand on their own.

I've seen the dynamic, and I've known Carly more than half of my life. I have known you both since I was a child. You guys know how much I love my daughters and you know how caring and supportive I am. Carly and I are like oil and water, and how we deal with conflict. I am direct. I wish her the best and I am hopeful she will find happiness and succeed in life. I would beg that you guys help to teach Carly to own these choices as her own and stop thinking the world is out to get her. The times I find myself angry, and wanting to tell the world what she's done are the times I see her passively mixing our own drama into the girls lives. A couple weeks ago I visited the hospital and found that Carly had changed all of our contact information. She put her own e-mail and phone number under my name (as well as hers) for the account. This has prevented me from receiving any medical information from the hospital. I confirmed with records that she had made the change and they put a block on the account where she cannot do it again. Why these games persist is beyond me. I wish we could both just get on the same page and work to create a more copacetic environment for our daughters growth, education and medical.

-E


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## GTdad

Jason, I'd consider editing or even deleting this post. Unless you've changed all the names, I think you've posted too much information.

That said, I'm very glad you've gotten your life back.


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## Chaparral

Its totally wrong to lie to your children. Sooner or later they will find out whats going on and you BOTH come off as liars.

Look up how to expose an affair on Marriage Builders website. It includes a section on when and how to tell your children.

At least one of you needs to be honest with them. They will need this for their future.


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## Dyokemm

Looks fine to me.

Send it.


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## badmemory

JC,

If you don't mind, I'd like to offer out your thread as yet another example of the collective experience on this board. Not to try to say we told you so (her having a PA), but to convince other newly betrayed spouses that we know what we are talking about; that we're not just spouting out doom and gloom vicariously. 

Will Kane (not sure what happened to good Will) mapped it out very succinctly. The frequency, the longevity, and the times of day of her texts to the OM, strongly pointed this toward being a PA. To such a degree that you should have assumed it was, even if you had found no further evidence.

Thankfully you finally did get the truth - which was even worse than most predicted, given she turned out to be a serial cheater. But, you spent two additional years in a false R, and I'm sorry that you did.

So I have two questions for you.

If you had made the initial assumption that she'd had a PA, would you have divorced her if she refused to admit it?

How were those 2 additional years for you? What was your marriage like during this time?


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## ReidWright

badmemory said:


> JC,
> 
> If you don't mind, I'd like to offer out your thread as yet another example of the collective experience on this board. Not to try to say we told you so (her having a PA), but to convince other newly betrayed spouses that we know what we are talking about; that we're not just spouting out doom and gloom vicariously.



In these long duration EA or PA cases, I always wonder what could the next poor person do to reveal the truth sooner.

OP, if you had followed the advice regarding placing a VAR in the car, would you have caught her burner phone use immediately? 

I think hearing the actual conversations in critical in these types of investigations. The cheater can always just say they were talking everyday about the weather.

also, recovering deleted texts...if you see a spouse texting 200 times a day, you need to read them somehow


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## jasoncampbell

I will love to answer those questions, they are great ones. Looking back I feel like a fool... but I understand why. I know what I was in and what I was going through. I speak about it now as if it were a different person.

I have to run, dinner date with my 6 year old tonight, but I'll get back soon to those questions and give my input on what would have been a more efficient means to and end here.

More to come soon...


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## Decorum

Jason,
Thanks for the update, this makes your thread a very helpful thread to point newbies to.
I respect how far you have come and all that you have learned.

Btw I am in the camp of "give age appropriate details" to children. Example, Mommy decided to have a another boyfriend and that is not something she should have done while married to Daddy, so we divorced, it had nothing to do with you and I wish it could have been different.

I have in my personal experience seen WS's say the most evil damaging things, so I believe that they deserve the truth, but thats just me.

Hey I really wish you well.
Take care.


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## eastsouth2000

I like how you got out of this, as a strong person confident about your future.

most people just wallow up pain and anguish.

its great that your moving on!

i think it would be great to share more of your story here to inspire us.


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## OldWolf57

Good to hear from you JC, and glad to see you came through OK.
As for the kids, just sit on it for now.
Your family or you will rectify that in due time.


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## jasoncampbell

badmemory said:


> JC,
> 
> If you don't mind, I'd like to offer out your thread as yet another example of the collective experience on this board. Not to try to say we told you so (her having a PA), but to convince other newly betrayed spouses that we know what we are talking about; that we're not just spouting out doom and gloom vicariously.
> 
> Will Kane (not sure what happened to good Will) mapped it out very succinctly. The frequency, the longevity, and the times of day of her texts to the OM, strongly pointed this toward being a PA. To such a degree that you should have assumed it was, even if you had found no further evidence.
> 
> Thankfully you finally did get the truth - which was even worse than most predicted, given she turned out to be a serial cheater. But, you spent two additional years in a false R, and I'm sorry that you did.
> 
> So I have two questions for you.
> 
> If you had made the initial assumption that she'd had a PA, would you have divorced her if she refused to admit it?
> 
> How were those 2 additional years for you? What was your marriage like during this time?


I would be very pleased if this thread and what I've been through can help someone else to more easily navigate a similar situation. I can tell you there is a lot of psychology in this, and I've learned so much about myself through this process. It's been a growing experience in more ways than I can express.

Where to begin. As I read my original post I am reminded of just how I felt at the time I wrote it. I forgot how strongly conflicted I was at the time. The information I obtained about my wife cheating, the logic behind it, was all clear as day... and the advice I received here was very clear and good. You guys saw through the fog I was stuck in at the time. For me, I was still trying to make sense of it in the context of the life I was in at the time. What I've discovered about myself through this, and I think what many in my shoes experience at the time... is a need to accept this reality myself, and come to terms with it.

This doesn't mean I couldn't be helped along, but I will say I was very much in the mindset of WANTING to not believe it was true, and grabbed onto anything that would fit that emotional need. Anything that gave me hope it wasn't true. I rejected direct and stern, at the time I viewed as callous, advice that was telling me I was wrong for sticking through it - anything I viewed as judgmental, was blocked. I believe, for myself, the best medicine came from those who told me "I understand what you're feeling this way, but you need to consider..." Walls go up against things I don't want to hear, the stuff that conflicts with my emotions. I am a very logical person, more so than most, so for me to put a wall up against logic as I sort out emotion is a telling thing. I believe most people on the bad end of these blindsiding moments would have even larger defenses against the cold reality being throwing in their face.

So much to say...

Hmmm, where to begin.

Looking back I do not regret spending 11 months on this. This gets a bit more personally into my own situation, and I do think I should have gotten to the bottom of this sooner (more on that later, and how maybe I could have skipped a lot of the pain) but I really needed to know it wasn't my fault. I blamed myself when I found my wife in an emotional affair. I know now she used that against me for months, but although those months were hell I stepped out of this without anger, but rather and understanding of what really happened and my part in it. I look back and can say I tried my best. See, if I had left my wife on November 8th, 2012... I would have never discovered the multiple other affairs, I would have never known EA guy was physical also. I would have always questioned if my daughters ended up on the bad end of this if I acted too harshly in not giving her a second chance. Maybe this is excuses and rosy glasses. I am not a depressed individual. I am an optimist. I try to look at the bright side of everything, and I certainly used that in my darkest moment here. A week after my initial post here, I went to my doctor and had an STD test (how humiliating...) the doctor saw me shaking and asked if I was ok sleeping at night. I had told him why I was there. He prescribed me XANAX to sleep... ugh. I took the stuff 5 times before I looked up online just how serious it was. It certainly did the job, but I didn't want to live like a zombie. So I threw it out.

Looking back I know I worked like hell to make this work. I gave my ex-wife the benefit of the doubt at so many turns. Two months after my initial post I had an intuition something was up. My ex-wife and I had been at a Holiday party and she left her coat there, she took our snowboards with her and said she was going to pick up her coat and getting the boards waxed for an upcoming trip. She said she would also go grocery shopping on the way home. Signal... she didn't know, but I picked up on it subconsciously. The grocery store was her excuse for heading to meet John... and she didn't realize that she normally never told me when she was grocery shopping, instead she would call me while there and ask if I needed something. It was out of her ordinary to tell me in advance she was going. So I sat at home... kicking myself for feeling so anxious. I texted her and asked where she was so she was giving me a heads up on her location. I called her an hour later and she answered the phone with a very unusually chipper tone, and just sounded guilty. I couldn't put my finger on it, but I asked her to come home immediately, and we talked about things. I told her I was feeling anxiety, and she more or less told me it's process and I needed to get over it.

Fast forward to 6 months later when everything came out and she admitted to maintaining contact with EA guy... she told me (almost like a serial killer does who gets caught... so proud of their achievements) that I had her worried so often. She said "It was really scary with you, it's like you always knew when I was up to something... remember that time I was with the snowboards and you called to check on me." She went on to explain how she had met with John that day and when I called him and her were in the car together, both froze when she heard he phone ring and they were paranoid I was tracking them somehow, again. This is the level of manipulation and deceit I was dealing with... she told me she was impressed, with the coldest look on her face, "we had to be really sneaky with it." (I think that made it more enjoyable for her, sadly). 

I've gone on a tangent here... ok back to the questions.

I wish I had trusted my own gut. As a codependent, I was quick to suppress my own doubts and I actually beat myself up over not "being a better husband" in giving her the space she needed to come back to me (blah, blah, blah... the stuff you hear). I really wish something had clicked in me on November 8th and I had been tougher on her. Not mean, but strict. I read your messages so much different now. I was weak at the time. I wanted her to come back to me. I wanted her to choose me. I felt like I was in a fight, but on the defense. I should have been offensive. I should never had put up with her remaining friends with EA guy on facebook until a week before Christmas. This was a constant struggle and topic in our marriage counselling. I actually told myself... she needs to do it on her own... I can't TELL her to do it, or else she hasn't learned. So I dealt with the pain of knowing this guy (who I thought she wasn't communicating with at all) was still seeing our lives on facebook. She guilted me over it still calling him "just a friend" and saying "it's difficult, and like a permanent thing to remove someone."

Geez... I sounds so stupid now. I actually listened to her guilt me over it saying "I really believe that someday him and I will be friends again, but if I remove him from facebook it's like he's never going to be my friend again, it's like admitting that isn't possible." I fell for it. How sickened I was later... a year later, when I discovered this anguish I endured over such a simple thing ("removing EA guy from facebook... or I leave" - which is what I should have said) she actually was communicating with him on the side. That means her act of keeping him there wasn't at all what she was projecting. She easily could have told him through their secret accounts the reason... she actually kept him there to put me through that pain. It was power and control. She would use it in the game in counselling. To make her own demands.

If I had left my ex-wife in 2012 I would have left her feeling like the weaker option. A man slide in and I didn't do enough to protect my family from him. I always would have had that doubt. November 2012 through March 2013 was the most difficult time of my life, but I worked like hell at it. I was home every day, doing everything i could around the house. Setting up family functions and events for us to do. Asking her what she needed help with. Going into counselling with an open mind and really holding myself accountable to anything that I might do to be better. By April 2013 I had resolved the emotional side of this, I realized we were not in love, and she was not working at the counselling. I become numb to it. I started to protect myself emotionally, but at the time was resign to the idea she wasn't cheating anymore and at least we were going to produce a happy home for our daughters. June and July I signed up for a work trip. Ex-wife and I both thought it was a good thing for us. She encouraged me to go. I left with a clear head and I really felt that was the time I started to see things more clearly. Logically. When I came home in August I started really dissecting the details of what didn't add up. I started doing all the things I WISH I had done 10 months prior. It only took me a month to get to the bottom of it all.

I feel I'm rambling again. This may be helpful. Let me try to more directly state what I wish I had done differently.

I wish I had allowed someone to mentor me who would hold me accountable for holding her accountable. I surrounded myself those 6 months post discovery of EA with people who were in line with my goal... keeping the marriage in tact. The ones who were telling me to pull the strings on what didn't make sense, I pushed out of my life. I think I couldn't handle the way they delivered the information. They spoke to me as if they knew something I didn't know (which was the reality) but I didn't want to hear it. I couldn't. I wish someone had spent time to gain my trust and understand what I was dealing with emotionally, my life turned up side down... I wish someone had asked me how I felt. What I was feeling. Told me to stop making excuses and asked me to figure it out. Stood by me and guided me to the answers that were all there.

I wish I hadn't allowed my ex-wife the platform to stand on after the EA. The one where she told me what I was doing wrong and I was too afraid to tell her "YOU CHEATED ON ME" and I wish I had expected her to fix that. It wasn't my place to. I wish I hadn't taken on ownership of her mistakes myself. I rationalized a lot.

I am glad I spent the time to get to the bottom of things. I am happy I didn't blow up and become jaded bitter and angry at her. I am glad I didn't destroy any possibility of a future where her and I could work together to raise our daughters. I'm glad I can look back and feel foolish but not regret what I put up with for the sake of my daughters. So I could today really know I never left them.

Specifics.
I wish I had put a listening device in her car. I was stupid not to.
I wish I had recorded more of our conversations. In Virginia it's a one party consent to record.
I wish I had taken time to think about what I needed from this.
I wish I had asked myself, if I had an EA what would I do to prove to my spouse that I could be trusted again.
I wish I had written that out and given it to my ex and not put up with any excuses about not following the list.

Custody:
I wish I had not given my ex spouse 70% custody time.
Short sided view, she wanted to stay at home with girls while they got to an age old enough to both be in school. Verbal talks between us about then going to 50-50 aren't legal, and carry no weight now. It's not in writing. No surprise her stance on it has since changed.
I am now in a constant struggle to get it to 50-50, and the whole system works against you there.
I wish I had not offered to give her spousal support for 2.5 years at 50% what it would have been had there been no contest.
I did this thinking it was for my daughters best interest to have their mother at home with them. She had me convinced she wanted to go back to school for a masters during those 2.5 years and that our youngest (with medical issues) would benefit from her care rather than being in daycare while with me 50% of the time.
It comes as no surprise to you guys that as soon as our separation agreement was signed and she started receiving the $2,000 a month spousal (and $1412 a month) child support she immediately got a job and dropped out of school. She now lives with her parents. The spousal payments stop in a few months.
That's a milestone. 
How foolish of me.

I wish I had told more people about her affair, while I was in the thickest of it.
I really believe the best is to get the word out to everyone as soon as possible. 
I chose to only tell my close friends and family, believing that she would be a better mother to our daughters if her life wasn't destroyed by everyone knowing her darkest secrets.
What I didn't realize is this created a scenario where she (with her BPD) could use the situation for her own sympathy gathering. She never told anyone directly that I did wrong, but she's passively painted a picture of the poor ex who was left by a husband who no longer wants to support her. I had to learn to not care about that.
I had to learn that peoples opinions who I don't know don't matter to me.
That is a process I'm still resolving.

As for the discovery of the Physical Affair... I do believe that if I had discovered it was a physical affair on November 8th, or at any point... I would have left immediately. I am trying to think of how I could have uncovered that quicker.

I should have stood tough to my gut feelings.
I should have searched for answers, rather than moving so quickly to blame myself for parts of this that had nothing to do with me.
Someone put it very well... last post in 2012 from the 8th page by *carmen ohio*. They said they felt I had moved too quickly to forgive her. I did. I didn't want to find out she was in a physical affair...

So that is the key here, and for everyone who has discovered their spouse in an emotional affair, that is the one piece I would highlight from my story as a lessons learned. 

If you suspect your spouse is cheating, they are... it's painful, but you need to get to the bottom of it. You don't have to be mean you actually shouldn't directly engage. You should immediately turn PI... as soon as you can. You should tell all of your family and friends that interact with your spouse on a regular basis and you should ask them to tell you if they see anything out of the ordinary.

A lot of stories from my friends came out after our separation. Many of them had the same endings "I wish I had told you... I figured it wasn't my business"... a lot of our mutual friends saw the signs, same signs I saw. If I had asked them, or they had brought it up to me, suddenly two people talking leads to answers. This is what cheaters bank on... people not sharing details. 

Despite all the wishes above, I have no regrets...


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## OldWolf57

Thank YOU J.C. !!!


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## Iver

I don't see the need for all the details. You found out your ex was having affairs with other men during your marriage and you divorced her over it. What more needs to be said?


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## Roselyn

jasoncampbell said:


> DW's mother and I talked last night.... one thing that is unique is that I grew up knowing DW and her mother is like a second mom to me. Her mother confided in me last night that DW has distanced herself from her these last 6 months. The last time she distanced herself from her mother was when she got into the relationship before the one with me... that guy abused her (raped her, allowed his friend to join in), got her into trouble with the law. I was the knight in shining armor that saved her from that. That is the foundation of our marriage... not love. It is liberating to say that... but also saddens me. Can this work?
> 
> My own psycho analysis of this is that she transitioned from her mother being her emotional support to EA guy. For some reason she has always needed a bond outside our marriage, not from me. I think this isn't me... I think this is her demons... I can't fix this, and I can't expect her to fix herself.
> 
> I feel like I need to be guarded going forward and that is no way to continue a marriage. She has a pattern of chaos... she needs chaos in her life. What if she puts on a happy face and tricks us all into thinking this is good and what she wants and 1-2 years from now we're on to the next problem.
> 
> I think at this point I agree that I have to give this another shot... but I have rules. If they are broken... if I give it time and she is not open to me emotionally... I'm leaving.
> 
> Our 3 year old already sees our problems. It breaks my heart. I've held us together for them... thinking D is more damaging. This is even worse.
> 
> I hope it gets better... we're at least trying.


You've already addressed your problem. My best to you.


----------



## jasoncampbell

Iver said:


> I don't see the need for all the details. You found out your ex was having affairs with other men during your marriage and you divorced her over it. What more needs to be said?


I think not everyone (in my shoes) needs all the details. My understanding of peoples personality types is that people fall on a scale of Intuitive vs. Sensing. People have both but usually learn towards one more than the other. The more intuitive someone is the more likely they are to want to understand how things operate. To dissect details, in order to resolve information in their minds. These types of personalities tend to gravitate towards psychology, sciences, and engineering. They search for deeper understanding in all areas of life, particularly that which affects them. Those with a higher scale of sensing tend to move past things quickly as soon as they have information to do so. They don't need details, they are quick to action. Given enough to make a decision they make it and move on. There is huge benefit to being somewhere on the middle of the scale. For myself, I am a very deep thinker, I am highly intuitive and very lacking in sensor. This is a default, somewhat a pre-wiring of your personality from birth. Think of it as the lens through with you view the world. Everyone's reality is different based on their perception of the same information. It's all subjective. I'm a philosopher of sorts, and higher sensor people consider my rambling nonsense, to them it is. To know why, is comfort to me. I started to recognize that others I recognized as high intuitive and low sensing were the same. They loved to hear my thoughts on everything and they were interested to help me get to the bottom of things. The sensors who were lower on the intuitive scale are quicker to say it's pointless. They want to move to action quickly, because to dissect, to them is unresolved. It is a waste of time. That is why I suspect those who are Sensor based will read all of this (even if they get through it all) and think "wow, all this info could be condensed down to just a few words"... I assume the intuitive take the information and love to archive it. It's another data point to connect dots and apply in the future to other similar. They see data points as a gold mine. The more examples you have the better prepared you are to help others and yourself out of similar mistakes.

I envy Sensor based personality types. They are the ones who move on quickly and never look back. For myself, to do that would be leaving a void in my mind that I'd always wander back to... a puzzle unresolved.

Psuedo-psychology here. Take with a grain of salt.


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## JohnA

WOW,

Please start taking the time to read other threads here and mentor others going though our ordeal. The custody issue will resolve itself with time and patience. She will consistently sacrifice her daughters needs for her own desires (not needs). In the last year I have come to the decision that fathers matter more than mothers to daughters. Always be available and the custody issue will resolve itself.


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## Chaparral

What does your wife's family make of her?

If she's living with her mom does that mean none of her boy freinds stuck with her?

Are you dating yet?


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## jasoncampbell

Lots of information... not sure if any of it is of interest.

I can't exactly say what her family thinks of her, I have a lot of assumptions based on passive observations, added together with how their family dynamics seemed to be as I experienced them during the marriage. I'll try to keep it to facts and try to make it obvious what's opinion:

- I believe her mother knew about the affairs the whole time (opinion based on how she talked to me after it came out when we separated, she didn't seem surprised or very remorseful on behalf of her daughter - more scared than anything, inquisitive about what my next step was). I believe my ex-wife and her mother both hid the facts from her step father.

- My ex-wife and I lived in separate rooms in our house for a few months until we sold it, she moved in with her parents and has been there ever since (coming up on two years). 

- My ex-wife continued a relationship with EA guy. His car would be in the driveway at her parents house regularly, almost seemed planned, as to coincide with my pick up and drop off times for my daughters. For the first few months her parents were never there, their relationship seemed to be hidden from her parents.

- That winter, 3 months after separation, my daughters started talking about the physical nature of their mothers relationship with EA guy. Seeing them kissing. This was something I reacted to, and confronted my ex about. She explained her intent was not for the girls to walk in on them kissing, I followed with "these are your daughters, this is about them. Lock a door please." I redirected it to them, not us telling her "they are fragile, and need to adjust to this new situation." 

- Spring 2014 this all changed and it seemed the EA guy was a welcome addition to their family. He was there when parents were there during drop-off and pick-ups. Around this time was the last conversation I had with my ex-wives step father. In this conversation he told me "some people just aren't meant to be and went on to tell me his step-daughter had found the true love of her life. (EA guy). He followed with a bible verse about God showing people the way to love. I cut him off and said "are you really quoting scripture to romanticize your daughters infidelity?" His face turned to micro expressions of rage, but he kept his composure. I followed by saying "look, I don't know what her mother told you, but Carly cheated on me with multiple men." He cut me off and said "I already know the details, you don't need to tell me... lets keep this about us." So I asked inquisitively. "What would be your advice to me" He continued with an explanation of how I should wait at least 2 years before finding another woman. He said "the right one is out there for you"

(I can't tell what is more to blame for her parents reacting this way... I'd like to think they are putting up a strong front to support her outwardly, and behind the scenes are really aware of their daughters part in this. I am fearful though that they are creating a fantasy around the facts to cover it all up in their own heads.)

From that point forward I hadn't talked to her parents at all until this week. Coincidentally, the day I wote that letter to them (page 8 in this thread) the step father walked up to me as I dropped off my 6 year old after our dinner date and he extended his hand. He said "I have harbored a lot of hatred toward you and recognized that is wrong. I want to say I'm sorry for that." I shook his hand and said "ummm, thank you."

I started to walk away and turned, then asked "CJ, I am curious. What was your hatred of me about?" He took a moment to think of an appropriate response and said very diplomatically "well, you know things get messy in divorces, you both made mistakes." I looked at him and said "CJ, I know the last time we spoke you told me not to share details, but I can tell you that you do not know everything that happened, because your wife doesn't even know everything that happened. I wrote you a letter, and it's in draft on my computer, I was planning to send it tonight." He said "look that is between you and my daughter, I just wanted to tell you I forgive you." I looked at him and said "I'm going to send it anyway, please read it." He said, don't do that... and I left.

My assumption here (opinion) is that they are finding it difficult to cope, because my ex's parents were both cheated on in their previous marriages. I believe that they are putting their daughter first (as they should) but that they are so traumatized by their own histories that they are protecting themselves from facing the reality that their daughter is a cheater. They both came to terms with EA guy justifying it as her true love. 

Summer 2014 EA guy slowly left the picture. My ex-wife explained to me during an exchange of the kids "I just couldn't continue a relationship with him because of what he did. He took my daughters father away from them." (This comment made me sick... but I held back, bit my tongue and just walked away from it.) My ex-wife had taken no accountability at all for any of this. She was now vilifying EA guy. There were signs her family was now vilifying him as well. She was already with a new guy (who I started to hear about from my daughters 3 months before EA guy left the picture). Patterns repeating.

This new guy who replaced EA guy I met one time and really got a great impression of him. Him and I had 5 minutes to chat on our own, and he was very down to earth. A very passive nature and seemed kind and empathetic. He told me that he had been divorced and asked me to let him know if I ever felt he was invading my turf "for lack of a better word" in my relationship with my daughters. He said "you are their father" He has his own daughter a year older than my oldest. I really respected him for talking to me about that. Unfortunately it appears him and my ex had a falling out this summer. It appears he still is around, but they are no longer dating.

As for me...

I very quickly fell into a relationship with a girl long distance after we separated (her in San Francisco and me in Virginia). It seems a bit text-book I'm ashamed to say, but I guess normal? She was a lawyer that I met online through a forum, kind of like this. She was drawn toward my intelligence, and introspection of every thing I'd been going through. We started talking during the time I separated, and she was giving very good legal advice. I always went to my lawyer first, but she was a cheap alternative to share the details with and see what her take would be. She realized how loyal a guy I was and I believe really fell for me in that - she always said I had an amazing quality to stick by my marriage despite how bad it was, saying that loyalty is hard to find in a good man. A month after the separation, we expressed feelings for one another, and started to talk about a potential relationship. She was a smart girl and I think saw signs she was a rebound and we logically talked through it. Imagine, a lawyer and an engineer... trying to rationalize that. I flew to Vegas in January 2014, and met me there for the first time. We really hit it off. However, looking back I can see that this was certainly filling a void for me, emotionally - and the travel was something I never got to do in my marriage, so it was a feeling of getting back to myself. I justified it as perfect, because she was the opposite of my ex-wife. She was witty, smart and logical. She was confident and ambitious. Our relationship seemed to be based on a revolving ability for us each to dissect each others problems and talk through them - but the emotions never lined up. It was a fun, adventurous relationship but summer 2014 I started to realize it was an escape for me, getting my mind off of my divorce. It was covering up the pain of what I had experienced. I started to objectively consider the future here and realized this just didn't fit. We broke up a year ago.

Side note: yet another reason I wish I had outed the affair to more people in 2012 is because my ex-wife spun this long distance relationship into the reason we separated. I learned later that many of her friends didn't even know we had separated, she would tell them she felt abandoned. Her circle of support seemed to eat that drama up because they had no idea we were in marriage counselling from a year prior, or any details about her multiple affairs. Again with the BPD, always a victim. We had a signed separation agreement with a free from interference clause, there was no chance of reconsiliation while we waited for divorce.

Late 2014, a few months after the breakup with the girl in SF, she moved here for a career advancement (and to be closer to her family in the area). It was clear she was trying to bring us back together as well (which I adamantly told her she needed to own and not do for me). We attempted to rekindle things during that time (off and on dating), but it just didn't feel right to me. We both remained very up front about our desires and opinions on how things were going She met my daughters during that time, but in the context of being a friend. I recognized I needed something different. Fall 2014 through Spring of this year I worked on myself. I stopped looking and I started to really figure myself out. For the first time I felt happy on my own, and I realized having gotten married so young that I literally had never lived on my own. By myself. I started to enjoy that freedom, to explore my own hobbies and interests - I focused on my daughters. I also focused on myself, not someone else, for the first time. I really got into photography as a hobby. Met a girl in that hobby and we immediately had a chemistry I've never felt before. We have been together now for a couple months. This one feels different and I recognize I am being myself with her - it's feeling very natural, and I've stopped analyzing for the first time. We are taking it slow, but so far it's been incredible - she brings out a kid in me and turns my logic into emotions. She also shares the same morals and future plans about life. We will see where it leads. So far so good.


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## eastsouth2000

your doing great and doing a lot better than most if not all in recovery.

but that the thing that bothers me.

is that your totally into "i don't care about my reputation."

ignoring the fact that your ex-wife is ruining your reputation.

you don't care about the opinions of others(her friends) cause they don't matter?
sooner or later they will matter.

its best to find and approach these people of who have an ill interpretation of you.
(find these circle of friends and communicate the truth with them).
clear your name for god sake's, don't be some sort of martyr and pariah 
for your future relationships 
for your daughters future. 
(imagine if one day kids go to school and they here from others that there father was the cheater.)
(imagine if one day the kids wont believe you because you have been labeled a serial liar.)

clear your name! yesterday!

most likely if everyone around you is believing the lies. that lie will become a reality.
look at what happened with foo's. they wont apologize to you because after knowing the truth. they rationalize its because you didn't tell them either. so them hating you is rational since they did not know the truth even from you. you cant blame them for that!. see where i am at.

ex-wife parents want to "forgive you" what they should have said was "apologize to you" and "ask forgiveness from you".


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## JohnA

JC, thank you for your last post. To many thoughts cried out for their own threads. But what hit me the hardest was her joy, like a serial killer, in using her "sins/crimes/f..ked up actions" in one last effort to destroy you. Yes destory you.

At that moment you saw the truest face of the "fog.". A concept that so many newbies can't grasp and so end of going into an even deeper dark place. So yes badmem start you thread.


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## Mr Blunt

> *By Jason*
> Around this time was the last conversation I had with my ex-wives step father. In this conversation he told me "some people just aren't meant to be and went on to tell me his step-daughter had found the true love of her life. (EA guy). *He followed with a bible verse about God showing people the way to love.* I cut him off and said *"are you really quoting scripture to romanticize your daughter’s infidelity?"*


Two comments:

1	Your ex-father- in-law, with his statement, proves that he has no wisdom and no understanding about the Bible and God’s definition of real love.

2	Your response to your father-in-law was OUTSTANDING!





> "CJ, I am curious. What was your hatred of me about?" He took a moment to think of an appropriate response and said very diplomatically "well, you know things get messy in divorces, you both made mistakes."


Another comment by your father-in-law (CJ) that proves that he cannot even articulate the reasons why he hated you. *While CJ hated you he wanted to tell you about God’s love? What a mixed up man!* No wonder some people run away from some of those that quote the Bible!




> Summer 2014 EA guy slowly left the picture. My ex-wife explained to me during an exchange of the kids* "I just couldn't continue a relationship with him because of what he did. He took my daughters father away from them."*


Jason, what kept you from puking? What a cop-out!
Jason, I would hope that you have NOTHING to do with this woman and only speak to her when it is absolutely necessary. *You can gain nothing from her but she can take away from your life.*






> - I focused on my daughters. I also focused on myself, not someone else, for the first time.


I think that what you did was absolutely essential for your healing. I have read so many posts from BS that did not do that and they suffered greatly. Glad that you took the right path to healing.
*Your priorities are right on the money!*


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## Remains

Great thread JC. Great to see you've come out the other end and are doing well.

Like you, the education was invaluable for me, and helped me in other areas of my life too. I finally cut away other very negative people close to me, called them out on their crap, and no change meant I cut them out of my life too. I would never have been able to do this without my education received from my ex and from TAM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio

jc,

First you say this:



jasoncampbell said:


> I would be very pleased if this thread and what I've been through can help someone else to more easily navigate a similar situation . . .
> 
> . . . I was very much in the mindset of WANTING to not believe it was true, and grabbed onto anything that would fit that emotional need. Anything that gave me hope it wasn't true. I rejected direct and stern, at the time I viewed as callous, advice that was telling me I was wrong for sticking through it - anything I viewed as judgmental, was blocked . . .
> 
> . . . I do think I should have gotten to the bottom of this sooner (more on that later, and how maybe I could have skipped a lot of the pain) . . .
> 
> I wish I had trusted my own gut . . . I really wish something had clicked in me on November 8th and I had been tougher on her . . . I should have been offensive. I should never had put up with her remaining friends with EA guy on facebook until a week before Christmas . . .
> 
> . . . When I came home in August I started really dissecting the details of what didn't add up. I started doing all the things I WISH I had done 10 months prior. It only took me a month to get to the bottom of it all.
> 
> I wish I had allowed someone to mentor me who would hold me accountable for holding her accountable . . .
> 
> I wish I hadn't allowed my ex-wife the platform to stand on after the EA . . .
> 
> Specifics.
> I wish I had put a listening device in her car. I was stupid not to.
> I wish I had recorded more of our conversations. In Virginia it's a one party consent to record.
> I wish I had taken time to think about what I needed from this.
> I wish I had asked myself, if I had an EA what would I do to prove to my spouse that I could be trusted again.
> I wish I had written that out and given it to my ex and not put up with any excuses about not following the list.
> 
> Custody:
> I wish I had not given my ex spouse 70% custody time . . .
> I wish I had not offered to give her spousal support for 2.5 years at 50% what it would have been had there been no contest . . .
> 
> I wish I had told more people about her affair, while I was in the thickest of it . . .
> 
> I should have stood tough to my gut feelings.
> I should have searched for answers, rather than moving so quickly to blame myself for parts of this that had nothing to do with me . . .


and then you say this:



> Despite all the wishes above, I have no regrets...


Frankly, this makes no sense.

You wasted almost three years of your life, in large part because -- as you admit -- you were quick to forgive and slow to confront. If you don't regret this, then you are one strange dude.

I don't mean to rub salt in your wounds but you say you posted this to help others facing _"a similar situation."_ In case someone who is in the predicament in which you found yourself reads this thread, I think they need to be told candidly that failing to take strong action when confronted with infidelity has consequences, one of which is regret.


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## jasoncampbell

I've been called an eternal optimist. I tend to have a short memory of pain. So I guess that explains my lack of focus on the efficiency or time frame in getting out, and more so on the end result. You do have a point and I absolutely agree that the correct approach is to take a stronger stance given even half of the evidence I faced at the beginning of this.


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## JohnA

Hi JC,

What brings you back? It has been a bit. I was under the impression you had found a measure of piece though acceptance of the end of your marriage?


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## jasoncampbell

JohnA said:


> Hi JC,
> 
> What brings you back? It has been a bit. I was under the impression you had found a measure of piece though acceptance of the end of your marriage?


Interested in helping others. I read and respond occasionally. Realized today in reflection that I missed the last page here from August, though probably best to leave this to the dust. 

Life is good


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## TDSC60

jasoncampbell said:


> Interested in helping others. I read and respond occasionally. Realized today in reflection that I missed the last page here from August, though probably best to leave this to the dust.
> 
> Life is good


Hop on some of the other threads here and read them.

There are lots of people hurting and searching for answers.

They could benefit from your experiences and knowledge.

Look at their situations and let them know that you have weathered the storm and are now happy AND what it took to get to where you are today.


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## jasoncampbell

Follow-up... getting to a lessons learned (something I wish I had focused more on in the PSA; that was costly to correct)

The high level summary, outlined in the previous 10 pages:
Fall 2012, found wife in emotional affair; went to marriage counselling for 9 months; decided to work on it
Fall 2013, found out affair had continued, it was physical that that there were at least three other men she had affairs with as well; we separated
Winter 2015; divorce finalized

Update: She got remarried last summer (July 2016), the month following her last spousal support payment. It was a surprise (though a welcome one) because of the circumstances -- my daughter, a few months prior, asked about multiple men in romantic relationships with her mother seeking for me to clarify if this is similar to how I go out on dinner dates with both her and her sister (we've always had a very open dialog, she's free to come to me and ask anything and I never lie to her; there is a lot of security here and I see she takes me up on this often; particularly when what she thinks is not aligning with what she's been told in the other home)... I asked where she got that idea from and she said it's what her mother told her when she asked why she was kissing and hugging different guys, and that her mother told her not to tell one about the other. (ugh!!)... So I confronted my ex-wife about this about a year ago, in a sense of "hey, none of my business what you do in your romantic life, but I want you to be aware of the view your daughters have into this and the questions they are coming up with from it." She said she appreciated me sharing this... and the next time I saw my daughters she said "mommy really loves (new husbands name) and we don't get to ever see (the other guy) again or his daughter." (problem solved... I guess). Maybe I'm naive to think that being remarried will stop the behavior... really my only concern about it anymore is how it impacts my daughters. I do find it peculiar how she's so careful to shield everyone from her indiscretions (her friends and family all see her as so proper and well put together), yet she allows her children a window into this devious behavior while coaching them in why it's ok in her own way...
Anyway, a few weeks before they got married I had a chance to grab dinner with the soon to be new husband. I get the impression he's a good guy, very empathetic -- surprisingly he's a lot like me (engineer, soft spoken, very empathetic, deep thinker). He has his own son... 12... that he's been the primary parent of. Sounds like he's done very little dating, and was focused entirely on raising his son. He described meeting my ex-wife a year and a half prior and that they took things slow, not introducing each other to their kids right away -- they did it "the right way" as he says... in being careful. This all kind of fit the above story, because he described meeting my daughters for the first time the fall of 2015 seems to be when my daughters started asking the questions about multiple men. 

Anyway, I decided to not bring up our past, or the issues. I want them to last, and I think this guy adds stability to her life and that will ultimately be a very positive thing for my daughters. It did seem like he had an idea that I just walked away from them (her story, I abandoned them)... he gave some guidance (in a nice way) through his stories about how important it is for me to be around and in the girls lives and how he didn't want to get in the way of that. I really appreciate that, but I did correct him by letting him know just how involved I have been (coaching their sports, volunteering at their school, our date nights together, never missing an appointment or school activity). So they are pregnant (due this fall). That is another positive in that it'll take some of her BPD issues and drama away from the scope of me and my daughters. She'll have her own new world of stresses to consider, and that also solidifies their relationship... it's not something that seems will fall apart anytime soon. He strikes me as the kind of guy who will work through any issues that come up. I have my own vision of things, and he seems highly intelligent, and I'm sure he'll get to the bottom of stuff as well. And actually I really hope she changes... maybe he'll help her in that, and this new baby as well.

Through the fall and around Christmas time she started rejecting nights out that I've always had with my daughters. The history has been that during the 10 day period they are with her (I have them every other weekend Thur-Sunday) I take one of the girls out to dinner for special one on one time. It's been an amazing thing for the girls... seeing them open up and they get so excited for this time with me. My youngest, who is a lot more soft spoken really becomes chatty when her sister isn't around. She shares her imagination and her stories about life. It's always taken place roughly around the 4th or 5th day between when I don't have them. This was never put into our PSA, however it was roughly referenced as we each had access at all reasonable times so long as we coordinate in advance. That neither parent would restrict the kids from spending quality time with the other during the time they are with one or the other. Anyway, a hint of the issues arose around Thanksgiving. My ex requested to have the girls Christmas time with me this year be cut shorter so they could spend more of it at her new house with her new family. I politely rejected this, and said we would stick to the schedule in the PSA because my family already had time all planned out for the holidays. I asked her to consider what it would be like if I asked her to give up some of her holiday time with them. This is when she started rejecting date nights out with the girls... 

She would do it in very peculiar ways too. We had always worked these out in person when I dropped the girls off... something like "hey, I'm free Thursday, I'll come get DD at 4:00 like usual." and so she started by saying "I'm sorry, we're busy this week." So I said "The whole week? Ok, well how about next week, I can do it Mon, Tue or Wed." and she said "let me check with my husband and get back to you." Then she wrote an e-mail stating that her husband had a work colleague coming over and they couldn't "accommodate my request." at this time. So the next tiem period I asked again, this time my daughter spoke up after I asked and said "Mom, pleeeeese... we need the dinner date! how about Thursday!" and so her mother said "ok, Thursday should work". Then she wrote me an e-mail that same night saying "I don't appreciate you making your daughter ask me on the spot like that. I checked with my husband and we are busy Thursday... you cannot come get her, and in the future I'd appreciate if everything is in writing so I don't look like the bad guy having to say no. Also I hope you'll respect my new family and our time together, I have a right to develop my own family relationships with them" It was over the top absurd... So this continued for two more cycles to the point where I had enough e-mails from her to prove a point (alienation even) and I took it to my lawyer. My lawyer recommended that I write up a schedule for all of 2017, date nights for the whole year (24 in total; matching the frequency we'd done in the past) so I did and sent it to her. She wrote back "Thank you for providing the only dates that work for you in 2017, but it's a bit much to expect me to set all these dates aside right now. I don't want to let our daughters down by not being able to live up to them. Now that I have your preferred dated, I'll let you know as each approaches if they work for me or not. Mind you that spring is coming up and the girls have a busy schedule. And we all need to make sacrifices in our time with them because of it." More of the same.

I evoked mediation, at this point (a requirement in our PSA before court). As soon as her lawyer was given notice, he wrote back that there was no issue as far as his client was concerned. He said his client and I had been cooperating and everything was fine. He asked my lawyer if this was about something else, and implied that I was just a jealous ex that she had gotten remarried and I was trying to punish her financially - with trying to scare her into giving up even more custody. My lawyer asked them to sign an agreement solidifying the date nights as a structured thing... and they rejected it stating there was no reason to, that everything was ok, and I was getting the date nights already. So we held onto all of the e-mails and waited for mediation. Which just happened a couple weeks ago. Her lawyer was in the dark about the situation. He went in prepared to argue that I was interfering and causing drama. He had seen none of the e-mails. The judge sorted this out rather quickly. The good news is that her husband was there for the entire thing, in the other room with her. So maybe he has a bit of a window into this all now... I'm sure he's been a great emotional support for her, but when emotions are all you're dealing with... my ex has a way to spin them always to a role of victim, everyone is out to get her in her mind. I am simply protecting my place in my daughters lives.

Expensive lesson here... it cost me north of $15,000 in legals fees, but I now have the established time outlined legally. Worth every penny, though I do realize this could have been avoided by having a less ambiguous PSA (Lesson I learned the hard way: don't think your ex will always do what's in the kids best interest, make sure your rights are protected). My daughters are happy, and they were kept out of it for the most part. I think their only window into things were during the winter when they voiced frustration about "why is mommy allowed to say no and you can't do anything about it?" I told them it's a slow process but that will change soon, we just need to work out the scheduling. Always reminding them that we both love them. Honestly, as twisted as their mother is from my perspective... I suppose in her own reality she's doing what she feels is best. Not an excuse for her behavior... but she's driven by her own methods. She thinks she's protecting her daughters... I'm in a role of disengaging as much as I can. She feeds off of the drama, so the less drama there is from her decisions the less she does destructive things.

The nice thing about going to mediation is that the judge (mediator) read through our entire PSA and found some other areas of potential conflict and he forced them to the surface. He's a very smart guy and he got to the bottom of a lot...

I brought up that she had been changing my information on medical forms, putting her own phone number and e-mail under "dads" contact information on appointments. Then pretending she didn't know what was going on. I caught her enough in this and had scanned print outs from offices day prior to appointment and then day after... showing the information had been changed when she took the girls. She was caught. The judge came up with a solution to have us use a digital calendar to share the girls appointments and information with me. She's really against it, fought this idea, but eventually he convinced her she needs to do it. Remains to be seen if she's cooperate. I think she enjoys having the ability to manipulate information, thinking it'll cause problems for me. It was interesting to sit in their room, because everything The Judge was saying seemed so obvious... but I'd never gone that route because I know how difficult she is, with everything - so I just minimize my expectations. Her goal is to minimize my role in my daughters lives. When I show I'm upset about this, it just emboldens her to do more of it... but with time I've become so numb to this, it's just par for the course these days (doesn't surprise me so I don't react). This last year when she was rejecting the date nights... I would write e-mails, but from a very emotionless point. To be clear, I was sad on my daughters behalf... because I know how upset they were not to get this time with me, but I recognized it did no good to express that to their mother. So I just made everything logical and legal... and even though it took months, it worked out eventually 

Anyway... onward and forward. Life is good otherwise. Work is great, my relationships are stronger than they've ever been (I've met what I can only describe as a soulmate, I know what love is), I've gotten back to my own passions in life, and I'm including my daughters in so many of them. Honestly, the weird thing in all of this... I am bigger part of my daughters lives now, now that I'm out of the dysfunction that was my marriage - I was living in the same house as them when married, but the marriage was so bad that I was floating around in a fog. My relationship with my daughters is so incredibly strong now, and they are growing up fast. They come to me with their thoughts, fears, ideas about life and how they are growing up an exploring their own friendships as their world expands. I love being a part of this and a support to them. I am proud, that through this all, they've had each other. They are so protective of one another. It makes me smile.


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## farsidejunky

Nice update, brother.


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## sokillme

You have consistently been too nice in this whole thing. It will continue to bite you in the ass and now it is hurting your daughters. Her husband is probably orchestrating this thing as much as she is. She is also probably cheating on him as is her nature so get ready when your daughters have to be in the middle of that. He obviously isn't as "nice" as you though so the fallout is going to be much worse. 

Everyone from your ex, to her stepfather, to her new man all treat you like crap, blame the divorce on you and you never once say, um no she cheated. 

It's sad to read. 

If it was me I would get a bulldog of a lawyer who specifically deals with father's issues and the next time she tries something I would stop being so nice.


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## Quality

sokillme said:


> You have consistently been too nice in this whole thing. It will continue to bite you in the ass and now it is hurting your daughters. Her husband is probably orchestrating this thing as much as she is. She is also probably cheating on him as is her nature so get ready when your daughters have to be in the middle of that. He obviously isn't as "nice" as you though so the fallout is going to be much worse.
> 
> Everyone from your ex, to her stepfather, to her new man all treat you like crap, blame the divorce on you and you never once say, um no she cheated.
> 
> It's sad to read.
> 
> *If it was me
> *
> I would get a bulldog of a lawyer who specifically deals with father's issues and the next time she tries something I would stop being so nice.



*If it was me * 

No experience ~ no idea


Men who try to bulldoze their way through custody battles LOSE. But OP already stated he regretted the terms of his divorce and wishes he had fought harder for 50-50 custody. That's water under the bridge at this point.

Modification of fully negotiated and agreed to consent divorce decree is a YEARS long strategic battle which is, more often than not, only achievable, absent some really significant events and circumstances {which these are not}, once the children reach an age old enough to state a preference.

Bulldogging, at this point, is not the way to winning anything, including the hearts and preference of your children.


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## sokillme

Quality said:


> *If it was me *
> 
> No experience ~ no idea
> 
> 
> Men who try to bulldoze their way through custody battles LOSE. But OP already stated he regretted the terms of his divorce and wishes he had fought harder for 50-50 custody. That's water under the bridge at this point.
> 
> Modification of fully negotiated and agreed to consent divorce decree is a YEARS long strategic battle which is, more often than not, only achievable, absent some really significant events and circumstances {which these are not}, once the children reach an age old enough to state a preference.
> 
> Bulldogging, at this point, is not the way to winning anything, including the hearts and preference of your children.


Remind me or your experience here? Oh right. 

He needs to protect himself better or this will continue to happen.


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## jasoncampbell

sokillme, I do appreciate your response, and I recognize in your words that you are seeking to empower me, but I think that may be guided more towards the history and it seems to be coming from a place of total disdain for those who cheat - trust me, I hate it too. It makes me physical ill to see the way some people act in marriages and towards one another. However, as good as it sounds... calling those individuals onto the carpet, and holding them accountable... it's not always helpful. Particularly when dealing with BPD. Problem is, some of them are incapable of learning from their mistakes. My strength... has no influence on her behavior. And I can assure you I'm a much stronger individual than I was in the earlier stages of this thread. I do feel I'm protecting myself (and my daughters) at this point.

Quality is right. 

My focus is on my daughters well being and providing them the best support and parenting I can. I am actively involved in their lives on an almost daily basis. I feel like the most important presence in their lives. I am their stability. I'm a safe place they can be themselves and open up to. I have such a great relationship with them both . 

What my ex and her family thinks, is something I can't control - nor do I care to. They know she cheated, and they know the details and they choose to overlook it and create their own perception of it all, in supporting her and their agenda. My harping over it shows a weakness, and defensiveness that is counter productive. So I let it go. And it doesn't help to show new husband what she's done either. What good does it do trying to convince him that his new wife was this way. He'll reject it, I know I would in his shoes. And if I provided him the proof, what purpose does that serve? How does that help my daughters? Would he start making her accountable? Nope. It'll cause a lot of chaos in my daughters lives. I don't expect her new husband to advocate for me... I'm not married to him. I've learned that telling her she's wrong in anything she does just emboldens her to do more of whatever that is, even at the girls expense. So I remove myself from the drama and ignore it... and seek legal recourse when it does impact my daughters as I did successfully a few weeks ago with the date nights.

I think this notion that I can somehow rage about the past, as if that's the way to gain respect and influence... is flawed. It's ego. Maybe it's helpful coming from the earlier stages of infidelity, but I'm 4.5 years out from it now. Yes I wish I had been stronger in how I dealt with it 4 years ago... I was too nice, back then, because I wanted things to resolve harmoniously, for my daughters well being. But, it's not weakness now, to not react to these situations. It's resolve and strength, moving on with my life, choosing to be positive and happy and choosing to allow my daughters to see that kind of way of living. I'm refusing to let the past drag me down. I'm more concerned with the things I can influence moving forward. My focus is on my relationship with my daughters and making that as productive and healthy as possible.


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## Herschel

This thread was a great read.


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## bandit.45

Your ex is a repetitive ho. She WILL cheat on this new husband, and this new marriage will be in the dumpster in a few years. 

Just keep doing what you are doing. Work towards the day when your kids are grown, then you will never have to deal with her madness again.


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## sokillme

jasoncampbell said:


> sokillme, I do appreciate your response, and I recognize in your words that you are seeking to empower me, but I think that may be guided more towards the history and it seems to be coming from a place of total disdain for those who cheat - trust me, I hate it too. It makes me physical ill to see the way some people act in marriages and towards one another. However, as good as it sounds... calling those individuals onto the carpet, and holding them accountable... it's not always helpful. Particularly when dealing with BPD. Problem is, some of them are incapable of learning from their mistakes. My strength... has no influence on her behavior. And I can assure you I'm a much stronger individual than I was in the earlier stages of this thread. I do feel I'm protecting myself (and my daughters) at this point.
> 
> Quality is right.
> 
> My focus is on my daughters well being and providing them the best support and parenting I can. I am actively involved in their lives on an almost daily basis. I feel like the most important presence in their lives. I am their stability. I'm a safe place they can be themselves and open up to. I have such a great relationship with them both .
> 
> What my ex and her family thinks, is something I can't control - nor do I care to. They know she cheated, and they know the details and they choose to overlook it and create their own perception of it all, in supporting her and their agenda. My harping over it shows a weakness, and defensiveness that is counter productive. So I let it go. And it doesn't help to show new husband what she's done either. What good does it do trying to convince him that his new wife was this way. He'll reject it, I know I would in his shoes. And if I provided him the proof, what purpose does that serve? How does that help my daughters? Would he start making her accountable? Nope. It'll cause a lot of chaos in my daughters lives. I don't expect her new husband to advocate for me... I'm not married to him. I've learned that telling her she's wrong in anything she does just emboldens her to do more of whatever that is, even at the girls expense. So I remove myself from the drama and ignore it... and seek legal recourse when it does impact my daughters as I did successfully a few weeks ago with the date nights.
> 
> I think this notion that I can somehow rage about the past, as if that's the way to gain respect and influence... is flawed. It's ego. Maybe it's helpful coming from the earlier stages of infidelity, but I'm 4.5 years out from it now. Yes I wish I had been stronger in how I dealt with it 4 years ago... I was too nice, back then, because I wanted things to resolve harmoniously, for my daughters well being. But, it's not weakness now, to not react to these situations. It's resolve and strength, moving on with my life, choosing to be positive and happy and choosing to allow my daughters to see that kind of way of living. I'm refusing to let the past drag me down. I'm more concerned with the things I can influence moving forward. My focus is on my relationship with my daughters and making that as productive and healthy as possible.


Makes, sense. 

However one thing you may be missing is this new guy may not be as oblivious as you think. He may even be orchestrating it to some extent. In his mind getting you out of the picture helps him solidify his family. Who knows, I admit I am speculating. Just don't assume he has your best interest in mind, or is neutral. 

I also stand by my statement of getting the best lawyer possible who has experience in supporting fathers. I don't think you are done with this yet. This is more about territory then even you and your wife's history. You have become an inconvenience to their fairy tail family. They are not concerned how that effects your daughters. If it was about you she would have had this attitude the whole time, she hasn't it's only with this new marriage and the introduction of a new child that you are getting pushed out. Your presence reminds them of her history. I would be preparing for the worst.


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## Tatsuhiko

Wow. You handled this with such grace and maturity. I'm older than you and I would not have been so calm and rational. Continue to protect your daughters, and help them work through the eventual failure of your wife's current marriage.


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## TDSC60

Great updates and I am happy things are working out for you. The strength you showed throughout this whole mess in inspirational.

How old are your daughters now? Have they shown any interest in why you divorced their mom?


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## Hope1964

jasoncampbell said:


> Honestly, the weird thing in all of this... I am bigger part of my daughters lives now, now that I'm out of the dysfunction that was my marriage - I was living in the same house as them when married, but the marriage was so bad that I was floating around in a fog. My relationship with my daughters is so incredibly strong now, and they are growing up fast. They come to me with their thoughts, fears, ideas about life and how they are growing up an exploring their own friendships as their world expands. I love being a part of this and a support to them. I am proud, that through this all, they've had each other. They are so protective of one another. It makes me smile.


This paragraph should be required reading for all the misgguided BS's out there who think they need to stay FOR THE KIDS.

jasonncampbell, thanks SO much for the update.


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## Openminded

Great update!!


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## jasoncampbell

TDSC60 said:


> Great updates and I am happy things are working out for you. The strength you showed throughout this whole mess in inspirational.
> 
> How old are your daughters now? Have they shown any interest in why you divorced their mom?


Appreciate it and good question.

My daughters are now 5 and 8. The five year old is a sweetheart, emotional, certainly an empath - she's made me a lot softer in all of this. She loves to hug, and has an incredible imagination . The eight year old is an inquisitive child, a rule follower, with a desire to lead others. She's a very direct and honest child, and I've made a point to affirm her for those traits. She's outgoing and assertive. She is always trying to get to the bottom of things. So I've been a place for her "why" questions... it's one of my favorite things, seeing the world through her eyes. Fun qualities to have in daughters!

My eight year old has asked a handful of times about the divorce. Once a couple years ago when we were driving in the vicinity of our old house. She said "Dad, remember when we used to live in that neighborhood?" and I said "yep, I remember the flower gardens!" she goes "mom drove us by the house the other day, and said she's really sad I don't have those friends anymore...(pause) mom cried and said the reason we had to leave is because you left?" (she said this as a question, not a statement. This struck a nerve... I waited to gather myself with an appropriate response)... "that's not true sweetie. We moved out of the house because your mother and I were no longer together. I didn't leave." about 30 minutes later, once I had had time to compose a better response... I brought it up, and explained to her at a six year old level what happened. I asked if she remembered EA guy (she did; my ex-wife had him around the kids a lot - she was physical with him around them too, I found out - ugh) and she said yes. So I explained -- when you're married you have all kinds of people in your life, and that's ok, but that your family should always come first and be your top priority, your focus. I said that her mother made another man a higher priority than me, and when I found out about it and asked her to stop, nine months later she still hadn't chosen to put me first in her life. When said she couldn't stop giving this other adult more attention than me, that meant the marriage ended and we sold the house because of it. Re-emphasized to her how this has nothing to do with her or her sister or how much we love them.

About a month ago she asked, and I suspect it's because she's trying to organize her thoughts about how she's about to have a new younger sister... She's now eight. It came up while we were having dinner one on one. "Daddy, I remember when you told me how you and mom split. I have friends with families like ours. They have two parents, and I wanted to know why you and mom didn't... you know, go together?" (she was using her hands to interlock as she said it, it was cute) I basically gave her the same story as above, but I added a bit more about the importance of the relationship between a husband a wife. I reminded her it was never my choice to divorce, but that her mother made a decision to prioritize another man over me and I used the term "boyfriend" and told her you can't have a boyfriend that you do intimate things with when you're married. She said "like kissing and hugging" and I said exactly. That I asked her to stop and gave her time and a second chance but she chose not to change her behavior. I related this to her view, which seems wider now... it's involving her friends. I told her that father in law is now mommy's priority, they are married, and because they are married that means mommy has now promised him she will put him first in her life. It's his job to make her #1 and her job to make him #1. As far as other adults go. Once you make the commitment to marry it's important to keep it. That's why you should never get married unless you can fully commit, which is how I was raised, and how I'm raising you. I said that's why it's my job to make sure you choose a guy who will commit to putting you first in his life... and I joked that as her father it's my job to set straight the guys who want to marry her (I said this in a funny voice to lighten the mood a bit). She laughed about this, and smiled. 

My eight year old often comes to me with questions that appear to be her getting to the bottom of inconsistencies in what she's hearing vs what she knows. She went through a phase about a year ago of frustration and calling her mother a liar quite a bit (like toys she would take to her mothers house would dissapear, and her mom would blame her for losing them, but she would tell me she went to sleep knowing it was on her night stand and wake up and it wasn't there -- also the times she would say "mom always says one thing but then she does something else, and she never appologises for her mistakes, but she expects us to"). Her mother blamed me for her daughter calling her a liar, saying I villified her... but the irony here is that her parenting is created the view her daughter had of her - while I actively work to create a dynamic of harmony where my daughter can learn how to avoid the situations where she's ended up with these negative emotions. This seems to have resided, and I suspect her new husband might be helping calm their mother down in that household. Just a guess. but I don't get the sense she losses it and yells at them like she used to. Anyway, I'm trying to show my daughters how much of life is learning to deal with situations that present themselves around them... "if toys dissapear at mom's house, then lets just keep your most important ones here until/unless we see them stop dissapearing" kind of thing. I suspect that their mother being a bit of a controlling figure... she basically wants to dictate what her daughters think, feel and believe (I've been told they are sometimes put in timeout for saying what they feel/think...if it's not agreeable to what their mom feels/thinks - ugh)... is not meshing well at all with my eight year old. She's but already starting to form her own methods to cope with the environment, from what I've seen.

Her younger sister is much more of an emotional child. I have an equally positive relationship with her, however she's getting wrapped up much more in the games of "how people feel" around her. She has been showing a big heart towards how I'm feeling. She reacts so amazingly well to positives... like saying something she does makes me smile. I've been working on that a lot with her. Positivity. Showing her that she has the power to change people lives with her kind heart. She's so into all the fairytales, I love it  This has really opened up a great dynamic with us. Kids are so drawn to positive things... so my job has been to direct them both there, and away from the negatives. In that they feel safe and we have very open relationships. She hasn't asked about the split, she was so young that I dont' think she ever knew it any other way. I also think her sister is actually doing an amazing job of helping her cope with her emotions. I was so proud of the way they handled a situation recently...

In January I took the girls to Disney World, when they got home... as the eight year old tells it... "Mom is weird! So she wanted to know how Disney was, I told her about my favorite ride, remember the safari park?! Well, she then only said negative things. Like ONLY negative. So I decided to stop talking about it. I told [my sister] to stop talking to mom about it also. Because I don't want to hear bad things about something I enjoyed." Such a rational mind this child is... it cracks me up sometimes. Looked in the rear view mirror at her and said... "what could she possibly say that's negative about Disney?" and my eight year old said "it was silly, like she went (exaggerated tone) 'I'm so sad I didn't get to go with you guys'" to which I said "that's silly, we aren't married" and my daughter said "I know! I said maybe you should take us too... and she got angry at me and said I was talking back."

I can see how that kind of language would really impact the five year old... who would feel guilty about travelling without her mother. My eight year old is a lot more rational, and sees it as "silly" antics.

I think I have an uphill battle with the five year old, but I think that her older sister will be a huge help along the way. My strategy right now is to teach my five year old how incredible she is... for who she is. And give her an empowering sense of self, to be who she wants to be. I think this will do a lot to counter any sense of attachment (enmeshment) she may develop otherwise. Also a huge reason I believe the new baby in the other home is going to be a great thing. It's going to take the spotlight off my daughters. There is a new focus. This will help them both mature a bit more and get out from under that wing, with a bit more independence. Critical at these ages, to have that freedom to see the world on their own while still knowing they can fall back on mom and dad for help and guidance.

I'm sharing all of the worst here... there is a good too. My daughters both talk alot about what they enjoy. It's been important to me to have that open line of communication. They've been coached to not talk about fun stuff they do with me, while at the other house (it seems). It feels as though it's been perceived as a taboo mainly because "it makes mom sad"... and so the irony of that is that their mother gets to avoid hearing the good we do, but she's also teaching her daughters to compartmentalize and close off a part of themselves to her. I've been careful to not be anything like that, at all. I'm happy to engage with them in the good times. Stories about their family time together, vacations, and the things they do in the other home. I also tell them always, no secrets between the homes. That I won't ask them to keep a secret from their mom and she shouldn't ask them to keep anything from me. That it's for their safety that they be able to share all of their thoughts, feelings and what they experience with both of us.

The older they get, the easier this seems to become... I guess we shall have to wait and see how the teenage years go


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## TDSC60

Sounds like you are doing a marvelous job with the girls. Keep it up.


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## skerzoid

I just finished this entire thread. I was struck by your analysis of everything. Stay strong. I hope your new relationship is still ongoing and fulfilling. Best of luck to you.


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## turnera

Me too. OP you may want to consider letting DD age 5 go to a child therapist so she can work things out better. It's especially important for more emotional kids.


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