# Low Self-Esteem.



## Threats5 (Mar 31, 2016)

Credentials:

Ok so... I am in IT. Mainly help desk, I am the 1st line of defense and basically the "face" of our department. I'm very passionate in what I do as well as have fun while doing it. I'm very outspoken and sometimes loud. I walk around the office and strike conversations and overall aim to help where ever I can. I guess you can say I am very assertive in my position.

Outside of my job, I stand my ground on what I believe in and or how I feel about something. I say what's on my mind when asked and most of the time am straight forward about it while paying attention to how I say it (most of the time)


Anyway...

My Wife and I got into a tiff yesterday that ended on a not-so-good note. We were talking about houses _(house shopping, couples end up fighting often about this)_ and she was fighting me on not having a patio with a roof over it. I like the idea of having that to help shield off weather or sun and was giving her ideas so I can try to take her on the visual I had for it and finally had her get what I was saying _(basically she didn't care about it enough to fight it, it's something I want so she's going along with it. a.k.a compromising.)_ She likes to soak up sun, so I was explaining how I the side portion of the patio can be uncovered and I can make a nice area for her to soak in. She couldn't see the idea I was trying to explain to her so I was trying to explain it better and in different ways. 

She got frustrated with me thinking that I am trying to convince her of doing this when I was just trying to find a way to show her my visual. So she started talking in a "slow" manner. As if I was not understanding what she was conveying and started to chuckle and animated stating "Yeah, because _some_ reason, you want to have it shielded for when it rain's or snows the 2 to 3 times a year" She was under the impression _(after saying several times no, I'm not trying to)_ that I was not respecting her decision and view on it and I was forcing her to "see it my way" when I was really just trying to get out my visual.

We walked away from this silly argument and I came back after calming down stating that it upsets me when she talks to me in that kind of tone. Talking to me slow as if I am a child you're trying to explain something to. As well as being snarky and chuckling at items that I say. It's belittling to say the least and it takes me right out of the conversation and makes portions of it emotional for me. Her reply to it is "Well, I just think you have low self-esteem issues and it's all in your head". This isn't the 1st time I brought this up and this isn't the 1st time she responded with that. Our 17 year old has also brought this up to her. I explained to her that _"It's not what you say, but how you say it"_ which she has also been told by our therapist the same thing. I don't have any issues with my self-esteem in or outside this home. She thinks it's b.s.. I described to her what she said and how she said it and how one could translate it. Instead of saying "sorry" and trying to comfort, she puts it back on me stating "Don't tell me after the fact then. Tell me when it happens because it's too late to do something about it now."... I... I don't get how it's too late but I agreed to try to do that from now on but that's not the solution to this. I told her I need you to acknowledge what you're doing and work on fixing it. You talk to me like you talk to our children and I do not appreciate it in the least bit. I'm conveying all this in a stern yet low tone.

I told her it's not fair that she put it back on me and not owning up to what she did wrong. She ignored me by "reading a book" and then turning the volume up on the TV.


I told her she was not being fair, I walked out to clear my head. Didn't say anything when I came back in.


I know throughout this rant, you can't really see that I do not have self-esteem issues but I don't. Hell when it comes to confrontation I don't avoid it or buckle because it can be healthy. My problem with this whole thing is that she does not own up to what she does wrong and throws it back onto me like it's my demon I need to work on.


*How the hell do I get her to see that it's not me with demons and issues and that it's her and how she talks to me? Any way to help me explain this better would be great!*

::gets off soap box::


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Buy a house with uncovered patio and install a retractable awning roof. Or buy on with a roof and tear it down and install a retractable awning. 

Or put up a canvas cover. 

Next time listen to what she says, acknowledge it, then later look for alternatives when you are not heated in argument. If you said you will consider it the fight would not have happened. When you find the right house the roof over the patio or lack thereof will not make or break you decision to buy. 

Btw, to me it is what i say, not how i say it. Wife feels otherwise. 

You both escalated the fight. It takes two to do that. You both are wrong.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

My SIL speaks like that. Like everyone is an idiot and only she has the capacity to explain in a calm and rational way. Drives me nuts and I want to hit her head. Someone must have told her to speak to people calmly and in a slow lower tone to get the other party to come down to her level to keep things from escalating. It's very annoying and belittling. 

My H and I are ranters. I am loud and vocal. He is calmer but gives back just as good. 

Yesterday, we got into an argument in front of our neighbors because I asked him to change the front door lock and he thought I was attacking his ability to install a proper lock. I hate the lock. It takes both hands on the door to open it. And I wanted some more sturdy because someone entered into our other neighbor's house while they were on vacation. So, I walk away yelling I hope the thieves steal him and that would be so good for me. Which was stupid. 

What I have realized is that most of the time you cant get them to see what you want them to see. Because they have an idea that is so firmly set in they minds, that nothing will replace that. Then, you are the one who is not seeing it from their point of view.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> I forgot to add:
> 
> If you get upset or doubt yourself when someone accuses you of having low self esteem, then you have low self esteem, even if you are outgoing.


I disagree. Just because he doesn't like it when his wife accuses him of having low self esteem as a deflection so she doesn't need to examinee her behavior, doesn't mean he HAS low self-esteem. Maybe he didn't like being accused as deflection.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

How about just focusing on the message and not worrying about the delivery?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Maybe he dislikes being talked to like he is a child. I know I would dislike that, too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Maybe he dislikes being talked to like he is a child. I know I would dislike that, too.


I think if he would change how he receives it, she would change how she delivers it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Get a voice activated recorder and get her snottiness on record. Play it back for her and/or your therapist. Try the same approach on her and see how she likes it.

BTW, I second blue's recommendation for a retractable awning - he beat me to it. If she wants to get skin cancer, that's on her.


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## Threats5 (Mar 31, 2016)

jld said:


> How about just focusing on the message and not worrying about the delivery?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I read some where that about 93% of what you say comes from your tone, gestures, and posture. The other 7% is your actual words. Your logic allows people to say what they want to say how they want without no regards to people feelings. That doesn't work.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Threats5 said:


> I read some where that about 93% of what you say comes from your tone, gestures, and posture. The other 7% is your actual words. Your logic allows people to say what they want to say how they want without no regards to people feelings. That doesn't work.


It does not work if you do not let it work.

High maintenance people make themselves pretty vulnerable to disappointment, OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Threats5 (Mar 31, 2016)

jld said:


> I think if he would change how he receives it, she would change how she delivers it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or she would think how she is saying it is ok and continue on talking in that manner.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I think she's using the "low self esteem" thing just to jab you in the ribs whenever she thinks you are not hearing her ideas...and want to change a "great" idea she has come up with. My wife does sort of the same thing. Whenever I try to change or add to one of her ideas only as a suggestion she sees is as controlling.


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## Luvher4life (Jan 15, 2016)

Her behavior is one of her personality quirks. We all have them, some worse than others. You won't be able to change that about her. Only she can. She can only change it if she acknowledges it, and then decides to work on it. Chances are it won't change. How you react to her belittling behavior is the only thing you can fix. Point it out the next time she does it in a calm manner, then walk away until she wants to be an adult about it.

The argument itself could've been avoided if you two could've compromised. A nice compromise would be to have a covered patio for you, then leave enough money in the budget to add an uncovered patio for her. That's an easy fix. Our current house has both. Of course, that never was an issue with us. I have a charcoal grill on wheels that I will roll under the covered patio when not in use. Of course it's nice to be able to just roll it over to the uncovered patio to use, instead of having to use a grill cover.

Of course, I do live in a very hot and humid climate where lying in the sun would be absolute torture... 100 degrees with 50% humidity, and you will be sizzling in no time...:FIREdevil:


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## Threats5 (Mar 31, 2016)

jld said:


> It does not work if you do not let it work.
> 
> High maintenance people make themselves pretty vulnerable to disappointment, OP.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We're going to have to agree to disagree. Respectfully.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

jld said:


> I think if he would change how he receives it, she would change how she delivers it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's putting the cart before the horse. He can't change how he receives her input until she changes how she delivers it. 

She can at least try to be respectful in her delivery. Otherwise she deserves the finger when she starts in with her slow talk.


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## Threats5 (Mar 31, 2016)

Luvher4life said:


> Her behavior is one of her personality quirks. We all have them, some worse than others. You won't be able to change that about her. Only she can. She can only change it if she acknowledges it, and then decides to work on it. Chances are it won't change. How you react to her belittling behavior is the only thing you can fix. Point it out the next time she does it in a calm manner, then walk away until she wants to be an adult about it.
> 
> The argument itself could've been avoided if you two could've compromised. A nice compromise would be to have a covered patio for you, then leave enough money in the budget to add an uncovered patio for her. That's an easy fix. Our current house has both. Of course, that never was an issue with us. I have a charcoal grill on wheels that I will roll under the covered patio when not in use. Of course it's nice to be able to just roll it over to the uncovered patio to use, instead of having to use a grill cover.
> 
> Of course, I do live in a very hot and humid climate where lying in the sun would be absolute torture... 100 degrees with 50% humidity, and you will be sizzling in no time...:FIREdevil:


I gave her that idea! She thought it was stupid, but she had this ugly patio in her mind from a home we looked at and thats all she was comparing it to.

But you're right, I'm just going to have to start calling her on it right then and there.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> > I think if he would change how he receives it, she would change how she delivers it.
> ...


I like the finger idea.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> That's putting the cart before the horse. He can't change how he receives her input until she changes how she delivers it.
> 
> She can at least try to be respectful in her delivery. Otherwise she deserves the finger when she starts in with her slow talk.


He can choose to focus on the message and not the delivery right now, and about as easily as she can try to change her delivery. 

That finger will just further escalate the tension.

Trying to change people to make them more acceptable to us usually does not work and increases our own frustration. Less stressful to either accept them as they are or leave them.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> Blondilocks said:
> 
> 
> > That's putting the cart before the horse. He can't change how he receives her input until she changes how she delivers it.
> ...


So you think his choices are two: accept being talked to like he is a child by his spouse, or LEAVE her?

Those are drastic choices. Just deal with disrespectful treatment or leave. 

Growth in relationships comes from working together and talking to each other when you are being treated in a way that you don't enjoy.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> So you think his choices are two: accept being talked to like he is a child by his spouse, or LEAVE her?
> 
> Those are drastic choices. Just deal with disrespectful treatment or leave.
> 
> Growth in relationships comes from working together and talking to each other when you are being treated in a way that you don't enjoy.


I think if he changes his reception, she will change her delivery. If he is no longer sensitive and reactive, she will relax, too. She won't treat him like a child if she feels she is talking to an adult.

But if she is open to a sit down talk about how and why to change her delivery, that would be great.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Threats5 said:


> Anyway...
> 
> My Wife and I got into a tiff yesterday that ended on a not-so-good note. We were talking about houses _(house shopping, couples end up fighting often about this)_ and she was fighting me on not having a patio with a roof over it. I like the idea of having that to help shield off weather or sun and was giving her ideas so I can try to take her on the visual I had for it and *finally had her get what I was saying* (basically *she didn't care about it enough to fight it*, *it's something I want so she's going along with it.* a.k.a compromising.) She likes to soak up sun, so I was explaining how I the side portion of the patio can be uncovered and I can make a nice area for her to soak in. *She couldn't see the idea I was trying to explain to her so I was trying to explain it better and in different ways. *


Full stop......your wife had already 'compromised' (a.k.a given in to your wishes) but you continued to pound her over the head with your 'vision' for the patio. Why? You'd already won. 

It sounds like you were trying to get her to validate your 'vision' as a grand idea. You wanted her to not only relent her position on the patio but to acknowledge your idea was better. You basically argued with her because you wanted to be right.



Threats5 said:


> *She got frustrated with me thinking that I am trying to convince her of doing this when I was just trying to find a way to show her my visual.* So she started talking in a "slow" manner. As if I was not understanding what she was conveying and started to chuckle and animated stating "Yeah, because _some_ reason, you want to have it shielded for when it rain's or snows the 2 to 3 times a year". She was under the impression _(after saying several times no, I'm not trying to)_ that I was not respecting her decision and view on it and I was forcing her to "see it my way" when I was really just trying to get out my visual.


I too would have gotten really frustrated. From her POV, you repeating yourself when she's already relented is just rubbing her face in it. Kind of like poor sportsmanship. 

What you should have done is said "You're an awesome wife for trusting me with this decision. I'm going to do my best to make sure the patio meets both our needs" Done! End of conversation. 



Threats5 said:


> I know throughout this rant, you can't really see that I do not have self-esteem issues but I don't. Hell when it comes to confrontation I don't avoid it or buckle because it can be healthy. My problem with this whole thing is that she does not own up to what she does wrong and throws it back onto me like it's my demon I need to work on.
> 
> *How the hell do I get her to see that it's not me with demons and issues and that it's her and how she talks to me? Any way to help me explain this better would be great!*


You won't get her to see that her response to you was disrespectful until you yourself admit that the way you handled the situation was disrespectful to her. Next time, take your win and walk away.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

She refuses to see how her behavior is disrespectful to him. In her mind, it's all his problem and it's all on him to solve. A show of disrespect to her might get her to see his point of view. He can, after all, say "It's just a finger. You're assigning the perception of disrespect."

If this were a one off, then discussion might solve the problem. But, it isn't - it's a pattern.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

You are in IT so you are smart. Assertive is good, aggressive is not.

Being in IT, I expect you are open to "systems" as a way to improve. One of the best systems I ever learned about communication was a book called Crucial Conversations. I strongly suggest you buy it and read it. It is a trivial investment in one of the most important relationships in your life. It will also help you at work particularly if you ever want to progress to management.

There is a coles notes primer available that will provide you highlights, but I strongly recommend you read the entire book as the examples and cases will resonate with you. Good luck.

http://www.peace.ca/crucialconversations.pdf

https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Tools-Talking-Stakes/dp/0071401946


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Threats5 said:


> *How the hell do I get her to see that it's not me with demons and issues and that it's her and how she talks to me? Any way to help me explain this better would be great!*
> 
> ::gets off soap box::


She talks to you that way because she has no respect for you.

Don't say another word to her. Buy the roof and have it put in. 

When she starts flipping out, tell her attitude is CRAP so you decided to handle it.

Let her go nuts, just completely ignore her. Next time she won't give you attitude.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

jld said:


> I think if he would change how he receives it, she would change how she delivers it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I can't believe she is still married to him. Why has she not divorced him? It is obviously his fault. Gottman's work proves it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> She refuses to see how her behavior is disrespectful to him. In her mind, it's all his problem and it's all on him to solve. A show of disrespect to her might get her to see his point of view. He can, after all, say "It's just a finger. You're assigning the perception of disrespect."
> 
> If this were a one off, then discussion might solve the problem. But, it isn't - it's a pattern.


She may indeed see his point. Or she might decide to leave him. You just never know what will happen when you choose to escalate.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Threats5 said:


> *How the hell do I get her to see that it's not me with demons and issues and that it's her and how she talks to me? Any way to help me explain this better would be great!*




you'll never "win" an argument with her about this.

the very fact that you would argue with her about something like this proves her point.

you tell her 1 time that you're not going to engage in a conversation with her if she can't speak to you respectfully. you determine what you find respectful or not, not her.

then, the next time she does this, say calmly, "Remember what I said about speaking respectfully." then turn and walk away.

she will probably flip out the first few times you do this, but just ignore her. leave the house if necessary. 

after you consistently do this, she will learn that you will not engage with her when she does this. then she will stop.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> That's putting the cart before the horse. He can't change how he receives her input until she changes how she delivers it.
> 
> 
> 
> She can at least try to be respectful in her delivery. Otherwise she deserves the finger when she starts in with her slow talk.




You miss the point she made. If the genders where reversed he would also be wrong in his delivery. It is not the deliver or the receiver who is wrong. It is the male gender.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> you'll never "win" an argument with her about this.
> 
> the very fact that you would argue with her about something like this proves her point.
> 
> ...


This sounds good, but I don't think it will work. If you turn and walk way, leaving the house, that will cause irreversible escalation. She wants to be in control using this ****ty way of communicating. I think with her, you either play ball her way or you don't play at all.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> That's putting the cart before the horse. He can't change how he receives her input until she changes how she delivers it.


He can, but that's not the real issue here. There is a safety issue that first must be addressed.



jld said:


> That finger will just further escalate the tension.
> 
> Trying to change people to make them more acceptable to us usually does not work and increases our own frustration.


Yes.



Livvie said:


> Growth in relationships comes from working together and talking to each other when you are being treated in a way that you don't enjoy.


Yes.



Blondilocks said:


> She refuses to see how her behavior is disrespectful to him. In her mind, it's all his problem and it's all on him to solve. A show of disrespect to her might get her to see his point of view. He can, after all, say "It's just a finger. You're assigning the perception of disrespect."


No, the issue is a lack of safety. He must first establish that to proceed. The finger is aggressive and will not lead to productive dialogue.



Anon1111 said:


> The next time she does this, say calmly, "Remember what I said about speaking respectfully." then turn and walk away.
> 
> after you consistently do this, she will learn that you will not engage with her when she does this. then she will stop.


No, that is not what will happen. She will increasingly feel judged and less safe and communication will get worse, not better. 

He can have the conversation about respectful dialog, but this is not the way to achieve it so everyone feels good.
@Threats5 - please get the book I suggested. Keep in mind that many people posting here, while well-intended, have yet to resolve their own relationship issues. Good communication is NOT about a power struggle, which is what a lot of posts here will lead to.

Think about what you REALLY want, in terms of the long term goal for your relationship, and whether what you say is really going to help you achieve that. Good luck.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> You miss the point she made. If the genders where reversed he would also be wrong in his delivery. It is not the deliver or the receiver who is wrong. It is the male gender.


I didn't miss the point. But you will never get jld to even consider that women are responsible for their own behavior and are responsible for at least 50% of the marriage. And, it is not always the man's place to lie down and take it. A lot of men haven't gotten that message. Thank goodness.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sapientia said:


> No, that is not what will happen. She will increasingly feel judged and less safe and communication will get worse, not better.
> 
> He can have the conversation about respectful dialog, but this is not the way to achieve it so everyone feels good.
> .


communication is a two way street.

only she can choose to be respectful.

it is pointless to try to have a respectful dialogue with someone who does not choose to be respectful.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

@sapientia, what is the safety issue that first must be addressed?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Lila said:


> Full stop......your wife had already 'compromised' (a.k.a given in to your wishes) but you continued to pound her over the head with your 'vision' for the patio. Why? You'd already won.
> 
> It sounds like you were trying to get her to validate your 'vision' as a grand idea. You wanted her to not only relent her position on the patio but to acknowledge your idea was better. You basically argued with her because you wanted to be right.
> 
> ...





Anon1111 said:


> communication is a two way street.
> 
> only she can choose to be respectful.
> 
> it is pointless to try to have a respectful dialogue with someone who does not choose to be respectful.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> @sapientia, what is the safety issue that first must be addressed?


In the interest of not being repetitive, please visit the links I posted. The short version gives an explanation.

I know you have a lot of great ancedotal experience from your long marriage, however, many seasoned execs and professionals have learned from this resource. I think you might also find it of interest.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> it is pointless to try to have a respectful dialogue with someone who does not choose to be respectful.


I think I understand what you mean, and you are correct that *dialogue* cannot take place, but that isn't necessarily the end of the exchange. There are several effective methods to overcome disrespect and return to dialog. The key is to identify why the disrespect is occurring by reestablishing safety, and then move forward. Skilled negotiators do this as a regular part of their work.

Please have a look at the resource I posted if you are so inclined.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I think if he would change how he receives it, she would change how she delivers it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or she could change how she delivers it and that would change how he receives it. Seems to me a much better place to start
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

First, understand that when you keep repeating and rewording yourself to share "your vision" the other person in the conversation feels harassed, bullied, and disregarded themselves, regardless of how good your "intentions" are.

So my first suggestion is when you find yourself feeling frustrated like she doesn't "get" what you're saying, slow down and back off. Don't badger her with your opinion. You can bring it back up later when you're both not so dug in on your opinions.

Now, as to her saying you have "low self esteem" because you don't like being talked to like you're a mental patient - LOL, that's ridiculous. I would tell her:

"If I had low self esteem I'd assume there was something wrong with me and quietly let you treat me this way. It is because I do not have low self esteem that I am no longer willing to accept your belittling tone."

That snotty, condescending tone would drive me nuts and I WOULD say something, calmly, every time she starts to do it. "I will not have a conversation with someone talking to me like that." and calmly leave the room.

HOWEVER, keep in mind that even you describe yourself as having a strong personality, and then you describe yourself essentially beating your wife over the head with your opinion because until she shared your opinion she clearly did not understand you! That is also very frustrating and annoying to be on the other side of. And the fact that you described yourself doing that as if it was fine/normal makes me wonder if your wife is resorting to her condescending, snotty tone because she feels so belittled by you assuming that she doesn't "get" it and repeating yourself even after she's said "fine, we'll do it your way." 

Next time she goes all "I'm a special ed teacher and you're my recalcitrant student" tone on you, try to objectively think back on the part you played in the conversation that led up to that.







Threats5 said:


> Credentials:
> 
> Ok so... I am in IT. Mainly help desk, I am the 1st line of defense and basically the "face" of our department. I'm very passionate in what I do as well as have fun while doing it. I'm very outspoken and sometimes loud. I walk around the office and strike conversations and overall aim to help where ever I can. I guess you can say I am very assertive in my position.
> 
> ...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

sapientia said:


> In the interest of not being repetitive, please visit the links I posted. The short version gives an explanation.
> 
> *I know you have a lot of great ancedotal experience from your long marriage, *however, many seasoned execs and professionals have learned from this resource. I think you might also find it of interest.


Thank you for the insight. I now have your number.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

They are called logias.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Threats5 said:


> Credentials:
> 
> Ok so... I am in IT. Mainly help desk, I am the 1st line of defense and basically the "face" of our department. I'm very passionate in what I do as well as have fun while doing it. I'm very outspoken and sometimes loud. I walk around the office and strike conversations and overall aim to help where ever I can. I guess you can say I am very assertive in my position.
> 
> ...


Try this: "I think I understand why you are speaking so slowly. Is it because you are having trouble understanding your own arguments?"

Well, don't really try that. But think it next time she starts up.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

sapientia said:


> I think I understand what you mean, and you are correct that *dialogue* cannot take place, but that isn't necessarily the end of the exchange. There are several effective methods to overcome disrespect and return to dialog. The key is to identify why the disrespect is occurring by reestablishing safety, and then move forward. Skilled negotiators do this as a regular part of their work.
> 
> Please have a look at the resource I posted if you are so inclined.


I took a look and agree with the general direction of the approach. I actually use a lot of that type of technique in my daily life and it does work.

I agree that you generally need to allow people to feel free to say what is on their mind and even to be emotional at times (within limits).

However, I also think there is a distinction between giving people the freedom to feel "safe" to be emotional/candid and tolerating people who are simply attacking you.

An attack is not constructive. 

If you are faced with an attack, I think it makes sense to give your counterpart a cue to make sure she has an opportunity to realize that she has lost control. 

Once you've done that, if she continues, there is no point in continuing the interaction.

In fact, continuing the interaction at that point will only compound the issue because you are actually rewarding this person (with your attention) for attacking you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Or she could change how she delivers it and that would change how he receives it. Seems to me a much better place to start
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And if she were here asking how to make her marriage better, that would be a great idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> And if she were here asking how to make her marriage better, that would be a great idea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But just because she isn't here asking doesn't absolve her of being wrong in the situation either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Or she could change how she delivers it and that would change how he receives it. Seems to me a much better place to start
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL have you read jld's signature? 

A "superior man" stands there and takes his wife's verbal abuse like a good little doormat should.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> LOL have you read jld's signature?
> 
> A "superior man" stands there and takes his wife's verbal abuse like a good little doormat should.


Yes I am very aware of her one sided approach but many read tam and never post. So quoting her isn't to try and change her mind it just to point out other options available to the reading crowd .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Thank you for the insight. I now have your number.


??? I'm sorry you feel the need to continue to be argumentative with me. Sometimes, people simply don't agree with you or have alternative opinions or options to yours. This seems to cause you difficulty and I don't wish to cause you further distress. I wish you all the best. This will be my last post to you. Now on Ignore.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> I took a look and agree with the general direction of the approach. I actually use a lot of that type of technique in my daily life and it does work.
> 
> I agree that you generally need to allow people to feel free to say what is on their mind and even to be emotional at times (within limits).
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply Anon. I agree with your additional points. In fact, I just employed them in this very thread! LOL.

One of the things the full resource discusses is the need to establish a common goal or shared vision. Agreed, if you don't have that and someone just wants to attack (some people get off on it), then there is no basis for dialogue. In this case, withdrawal is the correct response.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> LOL have you read jld's signature?
> 
> A "superior man" stands there and takes his wife's verbal abuse like a good little doormat should.


Here is the quote again:

_One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man_

Interesting, as I interpret the quote differently. I see this as a man who isn't phased when his wife gets upset. Your assumption is that she is upset and raging AT HIM. That's not what the quote says.

I get upset over things sometimes. Work and general life stuff. My H doesn't take it personally.

What I might take issue with is the idea that only the woman is entitled to this. Men get upset too. My H blows off about work stuff all the time. I let him do it, I don't take it personally, he feels better and life goes on.

I could be completely wrong, however, in which case this is a very sexist quote. Insulting to women, in that case.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sapientia said:


> Here is the quote again:
> 
> _One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man_
> 
> ...


Why would it be sexist, or insulting to women?

From Gottman:

_The research bears out that she can, in anger, escalate into negativity and it won't harm the marriage but if the husband does it (through stonewalling or bullying) it does harm their marriage._


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

It's sexist and insulting if only women, and not men also, are given special allowance to express themselves without penalty.

Don't you feel your husband is entitled to express himself safely--to rage if he needs it--with your support? Can you handle it? If not, why should he be expected to for you just because he has a Y chromosome?


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## Threats5 (Mar 31, 2016)

Lila said:


> Full stop......your wife had already 'compromised' (a.k.a given in to your wishes) but you continued to pound her over the head with your 'vision' for the patio. Why? You'd already won.
> 
> It sounds like you were trying to get her to validate your 'vision' as a grand idea. You wanted her to not only relent her position on the patio but to acknowledge your idea was better. You basically argued with her because you wanted to be right.
> 
> ...


I don't think you fully read this and if you did, you have the same mentally like my wife. Which in that case there's nothing I can say to you to explain why your view is not fully correct.


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## Threats5 (Mar 31, 2016)

Anon1111 said:


> you'll never "win" an argument with her about this.
> 
> the very fact that you would argue with her about something like this proves her point.
> 
> ...


^ Awesome advice. Thanks much!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sapientia said:


> It's sexist and insulting if only women, and not men also, are given special allowance to express themselves without penalty.


But it's not about "special allowances" or "penalty." Gottman discovered this truth through his research. He did not make a judgment as some kind of moral authority. 

Research results are not necessarily "fair." They just show what they show. And if we use the research, we should get good results, too.



> Don't you feel your husband is entitled to express himself safely--to rage if he needs it--with your support? Can you handle it? If not, why should he be expected to for you just because he has a Y chromosome?


Dug is not a rager. He is very calm, does not take things personally. Strong T on the MBTI.

This advice I give about focusing on the message, not the delivery, comes directly from Dug's example.

Dug and I are not together because we are exactly the same. It is our differences that attract us, as much as our similarities. He likes my expressiveness because it is unlike him. I admire his ability to not react emotionally.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

jld said:


> But it's not about "special allowances" or "penalty." Gottman discovered this truth through his research. Research results are not necessarily "fair." They just show what they show. And if we use the research, we should get good results, too.


I'm sorry, jld, but I just don't believe his research finding leads to the general conclusion that women get to duck emotional responsibility toward their husbands. Nor would I, even if that was what it was implying. I would just conclude those women in his study are emotionally weak.

If your H is the more emotionally closed sort, by his own choice, then great. But if he feels the need to express and you don't provide a safe way for him to do that, then I believe you may be failing him in this aspect of your marriage. This would indicate unmet needs. Apologies.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

jld said:


> Dug is not a rager. He is very calm, does not take things personally. Strong T on the MBTI.


So is my H. Extremely calm and emotionally controlled. So am I for that matter. But he still needs to express himself; most emotionally healthy people do. He is just able to delay with more control than most. Sounds like your H is the same. I hope you aren't misunderstanding him.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sapientia said:


> I'm sorry, jld, but I just don't believe his research finding leads to the general conclusion that women get to duck emotional responsibility toward their husbands. Nor would I, even if that was what it was implying. I would just conclude those women in his study are emotionally weak.


Who says they are ducking responsibility? I think it is more likely that women take a great deal of responsibility in marriage, but cannot do it all themselves.

Gottman has studied marriage for 4 decades, sapi. I know you respect that kind of research. You know it had to have been an acceptable sample or the other academics would have torn it apart. Academia is competitive.

I understand the research findings may not feel "fair" or "equal." I think it is because men and women are not the same. We will get farther studying what does work, whether or not it is considered fair or equal, than by insisting that results align with some sort of predetermined criteria of acceptability.



> If your H is the more emotionally closed sort, by his own choice, then great. But if he feels the need to express and you don't provide a safe way for him to do that, then I believe you may be failing him in this aspect of your marriage. This would indicate unmet needs. Apologies.


He is not closed, or repressed. He just does not have the same strong feelings about most things that some other people do. Or does not feel the need to react emotionally. 

Again, we are not all the same. It does not mean some sort of deficiency.



sapientia said:


> So is my H. Extremely calm and emotionally controlled. So am I for that matter. But he still needs to express himself; most emotionally healthy people do. He is just able to delay with more control than most. Sounds like your H is the same. I hope you aren't misunderstanding him.


Dug is on here. You can ask him. 

I will say that we have been together 23+ years. I think we have a pretty good understanding of each other.

Again, not everyone is a strong F. Some people really are strong Ts. The needs are not necessarily the same.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Here is another bit from Gottman's research. This could help you, OP:

_To resolve conflict:

*Soften your start up approach (women are usually responsible for harsh start-up but husband can make sure she is feeling known, respected, and loved and that he accepts her influence and her stance will soften)*

Learn to make and receive repair attempts

Soothe yourself and each other when emotions get high

Compromise

Be tolerant of each other's faults

Build "we-ness", make sure your partner comes before anyone else

Work as a team on financial issues
_


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Threats5 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > Full stop......your wife had already 'compromised' (a.k.a given in to your wishes) but you continued to pound her over the head with your 'vision' for the patio. Why? You'd already won.
> ...



What did I miss? I read exactly what you posted and went so far as to highlight the sentences where you explained the actions you made prior to the argument. You can choose to take responsibility over your role in instigating the argument or you can ignore it and continue to blame your wife. One is a position of power the other a victim.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

jld said:


> I think if he would change how he receives it, she would change how she delivers it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. She does it because she knows it bothers him. Childish I know but if he ignores it she won't have a reason to use it.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

One of my best friends was married to a guy like the OP. If he wanted his way on something, he just went on and on until she finally relented but that wasn't good enough, he would he would continue going on and on. I witnessed it a few times. They're divorced now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Threats5 said:


> *How the hell do I get her to see that it's not me with demons and issues and that it's her and how she talks to me? Any way to help me explain this better would be great!*
> 
> ::gets off soap box::


By initiating a Boundary (I will not be talked to like a child) as well as a Consequence that you will enact if she does it anyway (I will immediately end the discussion and leave for 20 minutes).

And by either informing her ahead of time what you will do when she treats you that way or else just DOING it - leaving the room immediately - and then explaining when you come back why you did it. I prefer the first way, as it gives you less headache (I told you what would happen if you did it again, and you chose to do it anyway, so you have no one to blame but yourself; you could have honored my request).

You can't change her, you can only change yourself. But setting up boundaries and consequences puts you back in charge of your own life and your own happiness. Which is what this is really all about. She's free to act like a jerk; you're free to remove yourself from it.

Amazingly enough, most people WILL change once you start protecting your boundaries/consequences because they won't want to be part of the consequence process.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Threats5 said:


> I don't think you fully read this and if you did, you have the same mentally like my wife. Which in that case there's nothing I can say to you to explain why your view is not fully correct.


Actually, I thought the same thing. You ARE aggressive/assertive - you say so yourself. And I think you took it way beyond what was needed. She had already said ok.

Don't you think your wife bears the brunt of that sometimes? Maybe her 'comeback' is her only way to counteract your assertiveness.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

@Threats5 EVERYONE here has some issues (including me) and none of us, including me, know it all. We are also here at this site, like you, because of relationship and communication issues. Being new here, you do not know the backstory of the posters, nor their agendas. Be very cautious with the advice you take from here. Those of us who know each other clearly see personal agendas playing out.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

turnera said:


> By initiating a Boundary (I will not be talked to like a child) as well as a Consequence that you will enact if she does it anyway (I will immediately end the discussion and leave for 20 minutes).
> 
> And by either informing her ahead of time what you will do when she treats you that way or else just DOING it - leaving the room immediately - and then explaining when you come back why you did it. I prefer the first way, as it gives you less headache (I told you what would happen if you did it again, and you chose to do it anyway, so you have no one to blame but yourself; you could have honored my request).
> 
> ...


I disagree with the bolded. Setting up a "boundary" and a "consequence" puts *her* in charge of your life and happiness, not you. You give her all the power over it, even to the point where she decides whether or not you hop up and leave the room. You lose control over what you may otherwise want to do.

Either ignoring her delivery and focusing on her message, or using empathy, such as in Active Listening, to seek to understand why she is upset enough to speak slowly to you, could defuse her frustration with you. Or not aggravating her to start with by not beating her over the head with your need for validation could do it, as Lila and soccermom have described.

You can stop the problem before it starts, OP, by changing how you treat her in the first place.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

turnera said:


> Actually, I thought the same thing. You ARE aggressive/assertive - you say so yourself. And I think you took it way beyond what was needed. She had already said ok.
> 
> Don't you think your wife bears the brunt of that sometimes? *Maybe her 'comeback' is her only way to counteract your assertiveness*.


I'm sure that is true. Most people are going to defend what they see as their dignity. OP is doing it, too. 

Treat her with respect in the first place, and the problem will resolve itself.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

If she feels he is arrogant and overbearing, and has been dealing with it for years, it is understandable that she is not going to trust him after one apology.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> That implies OP has the power to manipulate and control (or change) his wife and puts it all on him, which makes for very bad relationship. He does not have a submissive wive. He can go everything right and still the problem will not go away. He can only control (and change) himself, is that not what we preach her? Well, most of us at least.
> 
> BTW, OP had apologized for this actions, so dignity is not an issue for him. He owned up but it did not do him any good.


I am not asking him to manipulate or try to control her. I am telling him to avoid those tactics.

Apologizing after the fact is not nearly as effective as not being aggressive in the first place.

She responds to him. He will very likely get a different response by changing how he treats her to start with.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> BTW, OP had apologized for this actions, so dignity is not an issue for him. He owned up but it did not do him any good.


I may have missed it, but I didn't see in any of his posts where OP apologized to his wife for his behavior. Could you refer me to what you're seeing as an apology?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Lila said:


> I may have missed it, but I didn't see in any of his posts where OP apologized to his wife for his behavior. Could you refer me to what you're seeing as an apology?


You are right, Lila. I went back and read the OP's posts, and I do not see an apology, either.

Blue, where do you see an apology?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> They respond to each other. Also true is that she will get a different response by changing how she treats him at the start, middle and end. In most marriages, it goes both ways.
> 
> I suspect that his wife considers herself (at least) an EQUAL partner in the relationship. And that is a good thing.


And if she were here, asking for advice, we could address that with her.

But since she is not, we work with him on how he can be pro-active.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> Have you not read post #26?


I saw that sarcastic post. What of it?

But more importantly, please show us where he apologized. Where do you see that?



*ETA*: I noticed you deleted your post #26 after I went back and looked at it, and called you on it. I guess you realized, too, how sarcastic, disrespectful, and unhelpful it was.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Going back to the thread title, does anyone think the problem here is caused by OP having low self esteem or a poor self image?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sapientia said:


> No, the issue is a lack of safety. He must first establish that to proceed. *The finger is aggressive and will not lead to productive dialogue.*


 If I get an attitude my husband doesn't appreciate (Oh it happens)... this is something he does to get his point across.. he doesn't have to say a word...








.. I can't say this escalates me at all...it's a subtle warning.. "LOOk woman, you're getting out of hand"... and he's right !! There are ways.. what may work for one couple may not work for another... but I'd much prefer THIS over his leaving the room / refusing to talk anymore.. or verbally lashing me.. even if I may deserve it..

It gets my attention as it should... Not sure how other women would take it ... but that's me..


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> Going back to the thread title, does anyone think the problem here is caused by OP having low self esteem or a poor self image?


Not sure if it's self esteem but he does have a problem seeking validation for his behavior/ decisions from his wife. It bothers him immensely when she does not agree with 'his way'. His wife could have responded to his need for validation differently (I'll post my recommendation for her in a bit) but he can avoid these issues in the future by working on his need for congruence. 



Eta : Schnarch's Passionate Marriage specifically discusses this type of behavior in marriage. It's an interesting read.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

@Threats5

You work in IT. You have a boss, right? Treat you wife as good or better than you would treat your boss. Do you argue after the fact with your boss when she agrees with your plan? Or do you continue to argue with him until he acknowledges your plan was better? Do you seek validation from your boss? 

I know this is simplist thinking, but if you love your wife you should treat her better than you treat anyone else. She is your life partner. You have spent 20 years with her. I am not saying to be a doormat. Be a strong confident man and has a great self image. Learn to seek validation only from yourself. Work towards that goal. Continually seek self-improvement. And if it turns out that despite your efforts your wife is not responsive to your needs, then end the marriage and put your energy elsewhere. 

Arguing with your boss gets you fired. Arguing with your wife gets your divorced. 

I will borrow part of @turnera 's post to end my advice : Amazingly enough, most people WILL change once they see positive change in you because they won't want to be left behind.

It is not a bad idea to stay on this website over the next few weeks or months and read, and even participate in, other threads. There are a lot of good people hear and a lot you can learn. Consider it as a time investment in your marriage. Your return on investment will be high.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Lila said:


> Not sure if it's self esteem but he does have a problem seeking validation for his behavior/ decisions from his wife. It bothers him immensely when she does not agree with 'his way'. His wife could have responded to his need for validation differently (I'll post my recommendation for her in a bit) but he can avoid these issues in the future by working on his need for congruence.
> 
> 
> 
> Eta : Schnarch's Passionate Marriage specifically discusses this type of behavior in marriage. It's an interesting read.


I agree.

in addition to establishing the boundary of respectful dialogue, OP should work on accepting that his wife does not need to affirm that what he wants to do is OK.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I agree.
> 
> in addition to establishing the boundary of respectful dialogue, OP should work on accepting that his wife does not need to affirm that what he wants to do is OK.


Well . . . if he is planning on altering the house in some way, I think he definitely needs her okay.

He does not, however, need her approval of his feelings. Though he could learn something by her disapproval . . . 

You can learn a lot by sincerely and respectfully seeking to understand why she thinks and responds the way she does, OP. Trying to control her feelings and responses to make yourself feel better will not build marital intimacy.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

not everything has to be a joint decision. 

I think a lot of couples fall into this trap of thinking they need to agree on everything. 

consensus is great, but sometimes you need to make decisions anyway even in the absence of consensus.

if you're faced with a decision, you can first determine whether this is a very important decision that absolutely requires consensus no matter what.

if that's the case, then each partner has a veto right. if either exercises the veto, you respect that and don't argue. you only take action when there is a consensus.

if it's not a very important decision, you can make an effort to reach consensus, but if you don't, you can decide whether you just want to own the decision yourself or allow your spouse to own it.

if you own it, then don't look for her to validate your choice or support you if you end up making the wrong choice.

if she owns it, then let her have it. it's not worth fighting about most things


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

sapientia said:


> ??? I'm sorry you feel the need to continue to be argumentative with me. Sometimes, people simply don't agree with you or have alternative opinions or options to yours. This seems to cause you difficulty and I don't wish to cause you further distress. I wish you all the best. This will be my last post to you. Now on Ignore.


What drama. There was no argument. There does appear to be projection on your part. You go through a thread and pick out responses to discredit in order to set yourself up as an expert. You are no expert. 

Anyone who thinks a lifelong marriage can be attributed as much to luck as to their skill at marriage is talking out of their ass. Have a good life.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

If you decide unilaterally to spend money to alter property, do not be surprised to come home one day to find your spouse has also decided unilaterally to spend money to remove or modify your alteration.

What goes around may very likely come around.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Thanks Blue. I'm posting in this thread to help the OP. I provided a framework I think he will find useful. Some TAM people view a well-articulated alternative POV to their own as threatening their ego. That is not my problem. It's the Internet and thinking adults can choose what they find useful or not.

I'm not going to engage in any dialog here that isn't helping the OP. Hes already thanked me and I'm glad to have been a small help. Unless he returns I'm finished with this thread. I do respect your POV so if you wish to discuss anything else you are welcome to PM me.


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## Threats5 (Mar 31, 2016)

Lila said:


> Not sure if it's self esteem but he does have a problem seeking validation for his behavior/ decisions from his wife. It bothers him immensely when she does not agree with 'his way'. His wife could have responded to his need for validation differently (I'll post my recommendation for her in a bit) but he can avoid these issues in the future by working on his need for congruence.
> 
> 
> 
> Eta : Schnarch's Passionate Marriage specifically discusses this type of behavior in marriage. It's an interesting read.


I can actually see this, though this is not my intent. This will be corrected. Obviously, there's a lot being left out about this so there's only so much I can take into consideration. Everyone that replied whether or not I agree with what you are saying, thank you for taking the time out your day to help  or being laughter!


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

I 100% understand how frustrating this must be. There are some people who for the life of them cannot look inward and see a fault or areas to improve. They think it's never them and it's always someone else, in this case your "low self esteem". My guess is that your wife usually doesn't admit when she's wrong and doesn't give a good apology? Let me know please if I am off base. 

The problem is... She's disrespectful, doesn't care how you feel, and she can't think outside of her own perspective. It doesn't matter if she doesn't agree with you about her tone, if it bothers you and you have expressed that to her imo she should care about what you say and try to see why u think that and try to fix the problem. It is not ok to automatically dismiss your feelings and assume you have the problem not her. She is immature and passive aggressive how she handled this. Ignoring you and Turing the volume up on the tv?? That would piss me off so much, it's super disrespectful! She needs to learn healthy ways to communicate and address issues and conflict resolution.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

OP I am just like you, assertion and addresses issues in the spot. My husband is like your wife. I have constant problems with my husbands inability to take responsibility for his actions, apologize, and he always blames something or me and he always in every circumstance makes himself the victim. I think what you need is another perspective on this. Maybe someone who can identity with your wife in order for you to see things through her eyes if that makes sense.


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