# Do I look fat?



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I dunno. I'll admit that I never would've watched that video without any outside prompting, but that seems awfully dismissive for someone who didn't even take the time to see what she was saying.
> 
> Where should we be getting this message if it isn't from watching/speaking to other people who share our struggles?


We should be getting that message from real life significant people in our own lives. From parents, siblings, teachers, friends, etc.

Dismissive? You bet! Don't get me started on the YouTube "tutorials" put out by every idiot with a web cam. I have 3 daughters, the youngest is 17 and has me watch those tutorials from time to time. Make up and fashion tutorials, though similar to what we used to pay for in magazines, do not have the benefit of fact checking or a responsible party. It's one thing to put out a tutorial on how "I line my eyes to create this look" but completely irresponsible for that same girl to then give skin care advice. 

Everybody wants to be famous but nobody wants to put in the work to actually become a real life expert.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> We should be getting that message from real life significant people in our own lives. From parents, siblings, teachers, friends, etc.
> 
> Dismissive? You bet! Don't get me started on the YouTube "tutorials" put out by every idiot with a web cam. I have 3 daughters, the youngest is 17 and has me watch those tutorials from time to time. Make up and fashion tutorials, though similar to what we used to pay for in magazines, do not have the benefit of fact checking or a responsible party. It's one thing to put out a tutorial on how "I line my eyes to create this look" but completely irresponsible for that same girl to then give skin care advice.
> 
> Everybody wants to be famous but nobody wants to put in the work to actually become a real life expert.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

my attitude in life to avoid swimming upstream as much as possible. Ergo, I know how important appearance is. And within reason, I work at it. I'd like to lose a few pounds but I am in no way targeting a model thin weight. But I do the regular hair and nails appointment.

At the same time, I welcome my husband privately telling me things..... when my breath smells bad, since we've been together I regularly use mouth wash. and there have been a couple of times when getting dressed to go somewhere I may have chosen something a little too casual for the occasion. I welcome his opinion.

Those who carry around that "I don't give a rat's a$$" attitude towards life then need to accept the results that they get. For example, for every woman who feels empowered carrying around excess weight needs to accept, for example, that while some guys may find you nice they may not find you dating material.

I saw this transformation --online-- with my husband's once "special friend." She had one of those you go girl type attitudes but I noticed a couple of psychoebabble e-mails in which she admitted that she knew she was overweight. She was also annoyed that the only guys she was attracting were 10+ years older than she -- like my husband (when he was still single) and the boyfriend she ended up with.

So what did she do about it? She lost weight and posted photos of herself on Facebook.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Lord, save us all from these YouTube wannabe's who seem to think their thoughts need to be heard by the masses!!!!!!!!!!


I both agree with you and find myself writing my thoughts on a forum. 

Gah!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

heartsbeating said:


> I both agree with you and find myself writing my thoughts on a forum.
> 
> Gah!


yes, but, here we are having a discussion,

The young lady in the video is having an audience.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

BioFury said:


> Would you ladies want your partner to lie to you about your appearance? Would you get mad at him, or distance yourself from him, if he kindly expressed something negative?
> 
> Does your significant other's opinion of you matter to you? If they found something about you distasteful, would you want them to say something? If so, what would be the best way for them to bring it up?


I didn't watch the whole clip. Instead I'll answer your questions in the way they relate to me in marriage.

Would I want him to lie? My knee jerk reaction is no. There's a flip side to this. When I've had the flu and looking dreadful and he tells me I still look gorgeous, is he telling porky pies or is it his perspective or maybe a bit of both? I'd go with porky pies (lies) but call me superficial, I wouldn't change that. If I look like something the cat dragged in and he's saying 'You're beautiful' I'll lap that sh!t up and appreciate hearing it too. 

My dad commented on my weight when visiting. He's a man of few words and it was a surprise. Husband and I took him out to lunch and when hubs went to the restroom, my dad said 'I know I probably shouldn't say this, but you're getting a big bum.' He said he noticed it in the particular outfit I was wearing. I shrugged and acknowledged I'd gained a little weight since he'd last seen me. Hubs returned to the table and I told him 'Dad just told me I have a big bum.' Without skipping a beat, hubs said 'I love your bum as it is.' Then looking to my dad's large belly asked 'And how's your fitness regime going?' My dad chuckled and looked embarrassed. 

I'm a small / average size and have mentioned slight weight gain to my husband. He's said 'We've both gained a bit. We'll get that off, don't worry about it.' His opinion matters to me to an extent. When I was at the gym for weights, he had no interest in the gym. He didn't care if I went or not but knowing it was important to me, he was encouraging of this. Even played along when I flexed for him. However if I was to go the botox route, I know he'd somewhat lose respect for me. His opinion matters balanced with my own opinions and reasoning.

One of the best things he said to me, was to consider how I wanted to look when I was old. I looked at him like 'Huh?' Those oldies who are photographed, usually in sepia, and how they look joyous in the eyes... he knows I love these kinds of portraits. He figures that joy shows because they lived their life (in a positive sense) of 'Not giving too much of a fvck about things. Do you think they worried about how many calories they had at breakfast? Fck, no!' I loved that. 

He's said if an outfit isn't particularly flattering on me. I'd rather hear that opinion than not. It matters to him that I'm of reasonable health. He will be blunt with me when I ought to seek health / medical advice.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

notmyrealname4 said:


> or the color of Queen of the Night tulips?


...stunning!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

heartsbeating said:


> I didn't watch the whole clip. Instead I'll answer your questions in the way they relate to me in marriage.
> 
> Would I want him to lie? My knee jerk reaction is no. There's a flip side to this. When I've had the flu and looking dreadful and he tells me I still look gorgeous, is he telling porky pies or is it his perspective or maybe a bit of both? I'd go with porky pies (lies) but call me superficial, I wouldn't change that. If I look like something the cat dragged in and he's saying 'You're beautiful' I'll lap that sh!t up and appreciate hearing it too.
> 
> ...


I think your husband has the right attitude!

My weight has been up and down my whole married life. Right now it is up again. Not as high as 15 years ago, but higher than it has been for a long time.

When I have talked to Dug about it, he just says, "You'll lose it when you are ready." 

I love that answer. It is the truth, and it shows his confidence in me. 

The other response I get when I bring these things up is, "You're beautiful," followed by a kiss on the forehead. That of course just makes me roll my eyes, as it is his completely unobjective view of me through those apparently blinding husband goggles of love.

Funny, though, how that kind of relentless positivity and confidence often has us ending up having fun, bonding sex afterwards . . .


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> It's pretty clear that this woman has a host of self-esteem issues, with the eating disorders to prove it. Clearly it wasn't just the one guy who made her feel bad about herself, despite the claims about "confidence".


I agree. She was handing her power over to him, and he was not a safe person for her to do that with. Glad she saw that and got away from him.

What she could do now, though, is take responsibility for her feelings instead of holding him responsible for them. She needs to examine her insecurities and make peace with them (if she can).

Then it will not matter who she is around. She will be in charge of her feelings about herself, not handing that power over to someone else.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> he needs what he needs to get aroused.. I've seen posts by young men how JELLO is arousing....what can you do.. you have to work with what you have..


I have read this, too, SA. One man said that overweight women make him hard. He did not choose that. He is just wired that way.

I guess it is like sexual orientation? You can't change it. You just have to accept it, and work within it.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> I have read this, too, SA. One man said that overweight women make him hard. He did not choose that. He is just wired that way.
> 
> I guess it is like sexual orientation? You can't change it. You just have to accept it, and work within it.


 We have a guy friend, he married my childhood friend from 2nd grade (still married today)... she has always been over weight, took her share of bullying in school for it too.. he has told us thin women does nothing for him.. then spoke something about finding a plus size strip club once during his travels.... how he'll never see that again...

He was working on a vehicle with my husband that day many yrs ago.. just one of those conversations I never forgot...he's always been a thin taller man himself..


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> *We should be getting that message from real life significant people in our own lives. From parents, siblings, teachers, friends, etc.*
> 
> Dismissive? You bet! Don't get me started on the YouTube "tutorials" put out by every idiot with a web cam. I have 3 daughters, the youngest is 17 and has me watch those tutorials from time to time. Make up and fashion tutorials, though similar to what we used to pay for in magazines, do not have the benefit of fact checking or a responsible party. It's one thing to put out a tutorial on how "I line my eyes to create this look" but completely irresponsible for that same girl to then give skin care advice.
> 
> Everybody wants to be famous but nobody wants to put in the work to actually become a real life expert.


Should be, yes. That's so true. But actually? A lot of times not. 

I don't begrudge someone who wants to spread the message of self-acceptance. It's not like she was pretending to be an expert. And it's just a video posted on the web. It's not like there aren't bazillions of them out there. Many that are much, much worse.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> We have a guy friend, he married my childhood friend from 2nd grade (still married today)... she has always been over weight, took her share of bullying in school for it too.. he has told us thin women does nothing for him.. then spoke something about finding a plus size strip club once during his travels.... how he'll never see that again...
> 
> He was working on a vehicle with my husband that day many yrs ago.. just one of those conversations I never forgot...he's always been a thin taller man himself..


Our society is obsessed with thin. And so many of us think that only thin can be beautiful. But there's nothing objectively true about the "thin is beautiful" mantra. 

It used to be that women of a much higher weight were considered the height of beauty. Since then, our ideals, the models, the pin up girls, the who's who of the beauty world, have become so thin as to be unhealthy. It's tragic, really, what we teach young girls and tell ourselves about what's beautriful.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> We have a guy friend, he married my childhood friend from 2nd grade (still married today)... she has always been over weight, took her share of bullying in school for it too.. *he has told us thin women does nothing for him.. then spoke something about finding a plus size strip club once during his travels.... how he'll never see that again...*
> 
> He was working on a vehicle with my husband that day many yrs ago.. just one of those conversations I never forgot...he's always been a thin taller man himself..


I wonder if he feels like a minority in his tastes, or if he needs to hide it in some way? Probably not, though, if he was willing to talk about it so openly with you.

It is so important to be ourselves. That is how we will attract the right people for us.

I read a thread once on Reddit about men attracted to plus-sized women. It was interesting to read what the men wrote, as it seemed so contrary to what advertising seems to reflect. 

The women on the thread were so happy. One said something like she could not believe there were men who felt that way, and that it gave her hope.

It would be good to see more conversations like that, people just being honest about themselves and what they think, without the pressure of conformity.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> I agree. She was handing her power over to him, and he was not a safe person for her to do that with. Glad she saw that and got away from him.
> 
> What she could do now, though, is take responsibility for her feelings instead of holding him responsible for them. She needs to examine her insecurities and make peace with them (if she can).
> 
> Then it will not matter who she is around. She will be in charge of her feelings about herself, not handing that power over to someone else.


I for one.. feel it would be very difficult to be around people who put you down, on a regular basis.. where we feel belittled.. it's going to affect us in some way, how can it not ? (If we have any emotions at all)... it's best to recoil from these people.. It comes down to this...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Should be, yes. That's so true. But actually? A lot of times not.
> 
> I don't begrudge someone who wants to spread the message of self-acceptance. It's not like she was pretending to be an expert. And it's just a video posted on the web. It's not like there aren't bazillions of them out there. Many that are much, much worse.


I thought she was sweet. And certainly beautiful. I hope she finds a guy who deserves her. 

And I hope other women watching that video take comfort from hearing her speak openly of her insecurities. We all have them.

Again, my only concern for her was that she was blaming someone else instead of taking responsibility for her feelings. That is just not going to be empowering.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I for one.. feel it would be very difficult to be around people who put you down, on a regular basis.. where we feel belittled.. it's going to affect us in some way, how can it not ? (If we have any emotions at all)... it's best to recoil from these people.. It comes down to this...


I hear you, SA. I don't think I could do it, either. I am not emotionally strong enough.

But some people are. They rise above the insecurities of those around them (those people are speaking out of their own insecurities, after all) and are a light to a healthier path. They even feel compassion for those people. They see past their weaknesses into the people they could be. 

And sometimes, with their love and confidence, those people get a vision of what they could be, too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Our society is obsessed with thin. And so many of us think that only thin can be beautiful. But there's nothing objectively true about the "thin is beautiful" mantra.
> 
> It used to be that women of a much higher weight were considered the height of beauty. Since then, our ideals, the models, the pin up girls, the who's who of the beauty world, have become so thin as to be unhealthy. It's tragic, really, what we teach young girls and tell ourselves about what's beautriful.


All true, jade. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as the saying goes.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

wild jade said:


> Our society is obsessed with thin. And so many of us think that only thin can be beautiful. But there's nothing objectively true about the "thin is beautiful" mantra.
> 
> It used to be that women of a much higher weight were considered the height of beauty. Since then, our ideals, the models, the pin up girls, the who's who of the beauty world, have become so thin as to be unhealthy. It's tragic, really, what we teach young girls and tell ourselves about what's beautriful.


At the personal level, there is nothing objective about what any individual finds beautiful, or attractive. It's all subjective. Of course there are societal shifts in what the prevailing standard range is, but there is always individual variation and always has been. Simple case in point that is actually quite personal to my wife...Red Heads are the new blonde. She was always teased for her natural red hair. Watched others who were natural red heads dye it any other color they could manage...now she is complimented on it, and watches as people are clamouring all over themselves to change their color to any shade of red they can find.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> I hear you, SA. I don't think I could do it, either. I am not emotionally strong enough.
> 
> But some people are. They rise above the insecurities of those around them (those people are speaking out of their own insecurities, after all) and are a light to a healthier path. They even feel compassion for those people. They see past their weaknesses into the people they could be.
> 
> And sometimes, with their love and confidence, those people get a vision of what they could be, too.


Well I wouldn't fare well to be around anyone who treated me like sh**.. they can go fall off a tall bridge somewhere.. So help me if our daughter got a BF like this -who'd cause her to question if she was "good enough" at every turn...I just feel it's going to have it's effects , we're only human... I'd be fit to be tied.. 

We can't control the stupid mistakes our teens make, unfortunately ... we only have so many years to show them/ teach them to cut people like this out of their lives - and quickly.... hopefully it will sink in deeply -when it comes to romance too.. 

I see the Boyfriend in this light... 








My answer.. have nothing to do with people like this.. I guess that is different over yours.. as you feel we should be able to stand .. and take it... I still think they need cut out -wherever it is possible (like a co-worker, we're stuck with them, but ya know what I mean)... as the continuous hits can seep in and mess with our heads....



jld said:


> I thought she was sweet. And certainly beautiful. I hope she finds a guy who deserves her.
> 
> And I hope other women watching that video take comfort from hearing her speak openly of her insecurities. *We all have them*.


 I agree with this.. who doesn't have any insecurities.. please stand up..


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Well I wouldn't fare well to be around anyone who treated me like sh**.. they can go fall off a tall bridge somewhere.. So help me if our daughter got a BF like this -who'd cause her to question if she was "good enough" at every turn...I just feel it's going to have it's effects , we're only human... I'd be fit to be tied..
> 
> We can't control the stupid mistakes our teens make, unfortunately ... we only have so many years to show them/ teach them to cut people like this out of their lives - and quickly.... hopefully it will sink in deeply -when it comes to romance too..
> 
> ...


I know he treats me like crap...but he's just sooooooooooo dreamy, and I want him to pick meeeeeeee


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

samyeagar said:


> I know he treats me like crap...but he's just sooooooooooo dreamy, and I want him to pick meeeeeeee


 Yes... that's exactly what she did.. and many seem to BOW to these popular A-holes... I don't understand it .. never will understand it..


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Just saw this perhaps controversial article. I am curious as to what people think of the bolded parts. 

_ *It's not just women who are raised to believe that there is only one type of body considered "hot." Openly liking a body type that strays from the socially-constructed norm brings about shame.* Even those who are not ashamed of their desires sometimes feel the need to be secretive about it. In the heterosexual landscape, gender studies lecturer Hugo Schwyzer says men are "taught to find 'hot' what other men find 'hot.'" *Basically, heterosexual attraction works on a societal level, and women are the building blocks for their male partner's self-esteem.* Fat women are seen as a "downgrade," which forces many heterosexual men to deny that they're attracted to fat women at all.

. . . 

Author and fat activist Virgie Tovar brings up another misconception: "Men who desire fat women are considered sexual deviants or perverts because fat women do not conform to mainstream Western ideals of beauty," she told me. *"The truth is that human desire—and yes, male desire—varies widely, and if we lived in a less proscriptive world we would all see how diverse our appetites are. Unfortunately, we don't live in that kind of world.* In the West, it is thinness."_

How to Come to Terms with Your Attraction to 'Fat Girls' | VICE | United States


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Well I wouldn't fare well to be around anyone who treated me like sh**.. they can go fall off a tall bridge somewhere.. So help me if our daughter got a BF like this -who'd cause her to question if she was "good enough" at every turn...I just feel it's going to have it's effects , we're only human... I'd be fit to be tied..
> 
> We can't control the stupid mistakes our teens make, unfortunately ... we only have so many years to show them/ teach them to cut people like this out of their lives - and quickly.... hopefully it will sink in deeply -when it comes to romance too..
> 
> ...


No, I would not want my daughter with anyone like that, either. I want all of my kids to be with people they just feel good with, period.

Dug said he had a classmate in college who was a good-looking, athletic guy. He married a woman who was not considered "at his level" by the peer group. One even commented, "He could have done better."

Dug thought that was terrible. He said she was a very nice girl and it was clear the two were very happy together. What more is needed?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Just saw this perhaps controversial article. I am curious as to what people think of the bolded parts.
> 
> _ *It's not just women who are raised to believe that there is only one type of body considered "hot." Openly liking a body type that strays from the socially-constructed norm brings about shame.* Even those who are not ashamed of their desires sometimes feel the need to be secretive about it. In the heterosexual landscape, gender studies lecturer Hugo Schwyzer says men are "taught to find 'hot' what other men find 'hot.'" *Basically, heterosexual attraction works on a societal level, and women are the building blocks for their male partner's self-esteem.* Fat women are seen as a "downgrade," which forces many heterosexual men to deny that they're attracted to fat women at all.
> 
> ...


My first question is...what is fat? Ask a hundred different people, men and women, and you'll likely get a hundred different answers. Morbidly obese would probably be the point of opinion convergence, but anything less than that, and there will be pretty wide variation...and it's not just women who face this.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes... that's exactly what she did.. and many seem to BOW to these popular A-holes... I don't understand it .. never will understand it..


You are too smart to fall for someone like that, SA. Would that all women were like you. It would save a lot of heartbreak.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> My first question is...what is fat? Ask a hundred different people, men and women, and you'll likely get a hundred different answers. Morbidly obese would probably be the point of opinion convergence, but anything less than that, and there will be pretty wide variation...and it's not just women who face this.


Good point, Sam.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> Just saw this perhaps controversial article. I am curious as to what people think of the bolded parts.
> 
> _ *It's not just women who are raised to believe that there is only one type of body considered "hot." Openly liking a body type that strays from the socially-constructed norm brings about shame.* Even those who are not ashamed of their desires sometimes feel the need to be secretive about it. In the heterosexual landscape, gender studies lecturer Hugo Schwyzer says men are "taught to find 'hot' what other men find 'hot.'" *Basically, heterosexual attraction works on a societal level, and women are the building blocks for their male partner's self-esteem.* Fat women are seen as a "downgrade," which forces many heterosexual men to deny that they're attracted to fat women at all.
> 
> ...


I can read this.. but I don't understand why anyone can't just be honest here (actually I feel the great majority ARE being honest.. they just can't get what they want) ...I think it's absurd if someone is "just going along with the crowd here" if truly they don't feel that way...

I have never cared or was wildly attracted to the Popular guys / Jock types (didn't care for sports, hate football so this makes sense I guess)... I always went for the shy Nerdy types... but I wanted him to be THIN.. I am attracted to THIN men ....rarely have I even had a crush on a Husky guy... I was never ashamed or felt funny verbalizing these things.. I am happy to be different! 

Also I felt it only a plus, feeling I'd have even more opportunity / chances to meet someone -beings other girls just aren't knocking down the doors of guys like this.. 

Nice guys are the best... (not as in "No more Mr Nice Guy" syndrome of course)...and they don't all finish last either.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I can read this.. but I don't understand why anyone can't just be honest here (actually I feel the great majority ARE being honest.. they just can't get what they want) ...I think it's absurd if someone is "just going along with the crowd here" if truly they don't feel that way...
> 
> I have never cared or was wildly attracted to the Popular guys / Jock types (didn't care for sports, hate football so this makes sense I guess)... I always went for the shy Nerdy types... but I wanted him to be THIN.. I am attracted to THIN men ....rarely have I even had a crush on a Husky guy... I was never ashamed or felt funny verbalizing these things.. I am happy to be different!
> 
> ...


Geez you are soooo shallow SA


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Geez you are soooo shallow SA


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


>


It does beg the question though...why is a guy called shallow, or various other pejoratives for vocally preferring a model type, yet not called the same for preferring more common body types? Yes, I know that guys who are attracted to really large women have their own set of names they are called, but what about those in between? Is there some assumption that he is somehow seeing deeper than the surface?

My first two long term sexual relationships were with women who ticked every measure of prevailing hotness standards, one a runway model, the other a hard bodied yoga instructor. My current wife on the other hand is objectively pretty average, yet I find myself more physically attracted to her on a visceral level than any woman I have ever known...though I will say over 40, two kids...not a stretch mark on her, and perky boobs is a huge bonus...see, I can be shallow with the best of them...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> It does beg the question though...why is a guy called shallow, or various other pejoratives for vocally preferring a model type, yet not called the same for preferring more common body types? Yes, I know that guys who are attracted to really large women have their own set of names they are called, but what about those in between? Is there some assumption that he is somehow seeing deeper than the surface?


Hmm. Not sure.

You are right, though, that men on both ends are criticized. There seems to be a lot more understanding of one group, though.



> My first two long term sexual relationships were with women who ticked every measure of prevailing hotness standards, one a runway model, the other a hard bodied yoga instructor. *My current wife on the other hand is objectively pretty average, yet I find myself more physically attracted to her on a visceral level than any woman I have ever known*...though I will say over 40, two kids...not a stretch mark on her, and perky boobs is a huge bonus...see, I can be shallow with the best of them...


What do you think it is about your current wife that makes you feel that way, Sam?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I can read this.. but I don't understand why anyone can't just be honest here (actually I feel the great majority ARE being honest.. they just can't get what they want) ...I think it's absurd if someone is "just going along with the crowd here" if truly they don't feel that way...
> 
> I have never cared or was wildly attracted to the Popular guys / Jock types (didn't care for sports, hate football so this makes sense I guess)... I always went for the shy Nerdy types... but I wanted him to be THIN.. I am attracted to THIN men ....rarely have I even had a crush on a Husky guy... I was never ashamed or felt funny verbalizing these things.. I am happy to be different!
> 
> ...


If you do read the article, SA, I would be curious as to your thoughts on it. The author seems pretty confident. I wonder how many women could be as forthright as she is?

From the beginning of the article:

_"I'm not shy about my big body. The way I see it, if you can't handle my stretch marks, then you don't deserve my cellulite. I wasn't always like this. I used to be the girl who insisted on sex with the lights off. I covered myself every time I got out of bed. I never wanted to be on top during sex, fearing how my stomach might look from that angle. God, I feel so sad for that version of me.

My confidence boosted the day I came to the simple realization that my fatness is not something I can hide, so why try? I never went into sex under the impression that my partners knew what they were in for, as if our entire time together before getting undressed was spent solely looking at each other's faces. Plus, most of the men I sleep with tell me they like my body. They'll say something like "I love curvy women," or "I like thicker girls." I always took these comments as them trying to do me a favor—like, I'll call her curvy, not fat. But I don't see fat as a bad word, and I don't see the point in avoiding it.

I mentioned this to a guy recently, after he called me "curvy" in bed. "Just call me fat," I said to him. "I don't mind—it's what I am."_


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Hmm. Not sure.
> 
> You are right, though, that men on both ends are criticized. *There seems to be a lot more understanding of one group, though*.


True, though the guy who overlooks the fat chick in favor of the skinny chick is not likely to be complimented on seeing the real person beneath the exterior...regardless of his reasons for choosing her.



> *What do you think it is about your current wife that makes you feel that way, Sam*?


Not a clue. It just is.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> True, though the guy who overlooks the fat chick in favor of the skinny chick is not likely to be complimented on seeing the real person beneath the exterior...regardless of his reasons for choosing her.


It could be an unearned compliment. Both sides are likely just acting on innate attraction. 

That is what I recall of that Reddit thread, anyway. Those guys seemed as into the gals they liked as other men might be into thin women. It did not seem like they saw them as some sort of consolation prize. 

I think some may have mentioned needing to come to terms with their desires, though, and not try to fight them. I don't know that a man whose tastes are more conforming to social norms would have to go through that.

Again, it kind of reminds me of people who do not have a majority sexual orientation.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> If you do read the article, SA, I would be curious as to your thoughts on it. The author seems pretty confident. I wonder how many women could be as forthright as she is?
> 
> From the beginning of the article:
> 
> ...


I can appreciate valuing ones self for who and what they are, and the first, most important step in self acceptance is self honesty. Confidence born from that self honesty is good and healthy, and can be attractive. Statements like the bolded above however, seem steeped in defensiveness and defiance rather than confidence, and are shaming in their own right, and for an article about acceptance, rather unaccepting of others' unacceptance.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> Again, my only concern for her was that she was blaming someone else instead of taking responsibility for her feelings. That is just not going to be empowering.


Agreed. She seems to have decided it was all his fault, even though in practically the same breath she admitted that she'd often struggled with body image issues. Definitely more empowering to take ownership of that -- otherwise she'll be just as easily derailed by the next unflattering comment.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> It does beg the question though...why is a guy called shallow, or various other pejoratives for vocally preferring a model type, yet not called the same for preferring more common body types? Yes, I know that guys who are attracted to really large women have their own set of names they are called, but what about those in between? Is there some assumption that he is somehow seeing deeper than the surface?
> 
> My first two long term sexual relationships were with women who ticked every measure of prevailing hotness standards, one a runway model, the other a hard bodied yoga instructor. My current wife on the other hand is objectively pretty average, yet I find myself more physically attracted to her on a visceral level than any woman I have ever known...though I will say over 40, two kids...not a stretch mark on her, and perky boobs is a huge bonus...see, I can be shallow with the best of them...


I don't think people are called shallow for having preferences, they are called shallow for failing to see anything beyond the surface appearance. 

So, the buddy who's already decided that this girl is attractive enough to date, is going to now try to mold her into some physical ideal that he has, rather than accepting her for who and what she is. If he didn't like her in the first place, then he shouldn't have pretended that he did. 

Truth is, we all need acceptance for who we are beyond how we look. And if a relationship is going to go for the long term this is doubly so. Maybe triply.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

samyeagar said:


> Geez you are soooo shallow SA


 Yes.. some will find me shallow...my husband knows if he starts to gain.. I will feed him cardboard to get his stomach flat again ... and he's said "let's not find out " about his loosing desire if I gain too much.. we've been very open about it... though he never seemed to mind when I was pregnant (I was very horny then too).. though I did keep the lights out. 

But ya know... in other areas...I'm obviously not as particular as the average Jane...does a man have to have towering confidence (often this comes off as arrogance to me).. I'll happily take the more humble guy & we'll muddle through life together (give me silent confidence please)......

I also wouldn't dis a man if he didn't have a great paying Job with financial success on the horizon ...I'd look at other aspects like his "Work Ethic", how he manages his $$ ...with every minus.. there could be some pluses we should consider....

My Father has been with 2 women.. my mother, thin ... then my Step Mother, she's always been a bigger woman...My mother didn't like sex - at least not with my dad ! (It was the downfall of their marriage) ...I recall her telling me he was too husky, I guess I get my lanky preference from her!

Anyway... my step mother was the BOMB for him.. she loved loved loved sex







...had all kinds of enthusiasm... She gave him what he longed for...a great marriage they've had ... still going strong today.... what a blessing to be with someone he was truly compatible with... a few extra lbs never seemed to bother him...


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

wild jade said:


> I don't think people are called shallow for having preferences, they are called shallow for failing to see anything beyond the surface appearance.
> 
> *So, the buddy who's already decided that this girl is attractive enough to date, is going to now try to mold her into some physical ideal that he has, rather than accepting her for who and what she is. If he didn't like her in the first place, then he shouldn't have pretended that he did.*
> 
> Truth is, we all need acceptance for who we are beyond how we look. And if a relationship is going to go for the long term this is doubly so. Maybe triply.


And this gets right back into the...oh please, please, pleeeeease pick meeeee mindset. Both sides have a choice in the matter. Yes, anyone who tries to mold through shaming is a jerk, it's just important to recognize what it is that makes them a jerk...and it's not because they have preferences...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> And this gets right back into the...oh please, please, pleeeeease pick meeeee mindset. Both sides have a choice in the matter. Yes, anyone who tries to mold through shaming is a jerk, it's just important to recognize what it is that makes them a jerk...and it's not because they have preferences...


Was he shaming her, though? 

I thought he just told her his vision for her. And she realized that was not her vision for herself. And if that was what he needed, then that was not going to work out.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I don't think people are called shallow for having preferences, they are called shallow for failing to see anything beyond the surface appearance.


I think they often end up paying for it, too. 

Instead of getting mad at being called shallow, it might be wise to see why people might be saying that about them, and if they could save themselves some potential heartache by reconsidering their choices.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> I think they often end up paying for it, too.
> 
> Instead of getting mad at being called shallow, it might be wise to see why people might be saying that about them, and if they could save themselves some potential heartache by reconsidering their choices.


This is an inherent risk in focusing on any particular trait largely to the exclusion of others, and not specific to looks.


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## Tiggy! (Sep 9, 2016)

BioFury said:


> So I came across this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIuN3O2MRrQ
> 
> I didn't watch the whole thing, but some of the things she said made me scratch my head. So I thought I'd get all you ladies to chime in.
> 
> ...


I agree someone shouldn't lie to soothe other's ego, but it sounds like that's not what happened from this woman's video. It sounds like her ex bf got this youtuber then started to pick apart her body and started to change her.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> If you do read the article, SA, I would be curious as to your thoughts on it. The author seems pretty confident. I wonder how many women could be as forthright as she is?
> 
> From the beginning of the article:
> 
> ...


Ok I took a moment and read the article.. Not sure what I got out of it... other than this woman is having a lot of casual sex...and she is basing her new way of thinking on what one of these men said to her.. 


> " Plus, most of the men I sleep with tell me they like my body. They'll say something like "I love curvy women," or "I like thicker girls." ....one of them responded "His response to this took me surprise. "Trust me, you're not fat. I'm not attracted to fat girls." then she said : "That's when it all hit me: Oh, you're not doing this for my sake. You're doing it for yours. This guy, and probably a lot of the others, didn't want to come to terms with his attraction to a fat woman."


 The whole premises of this article is written about such men.. and surely there are such men (like our guy friend)... but why would anyone deny themselves true happiness and fulfillment , not to mention a lot more options out there - if they could ?? .. it's hard for me to wrap my brain around that one...

And could it be...turn this around (plenty of women care too about body type).. I have another bigger friend.. she only goes for THIN MEN...Maybe just maybe these bigger girls , since they've slept with some hotties themselves...don't want the bigger guys ! 

Would I trust ANYTHING that came out of horny guys mouth leading up or during casual sex.. the answer would be "NO"... Casual sex is about getting your rocks off.....and if he/ these other men weren't coming back for more , showing care to take her out, get to know her on an intimate emotion level.. that's just sad .. She did say :



> I know this isn't true. I have plenty of friends who fit the "hot chick" stereotype (I live in Los Angeles, after all—there's practically a goddamn infestation of "hot chicks"). I've learned from my friendships with tall, thin, beauty-obsessed women that their romantic lives are just as ****ty as mine. Fat or thin, we're in the same boat when it comes to getting cheated on, getting that awful text that says, "You're really cool, but the thing is..." The difference is, when that happens, my thin friends don't automatically blame it on their weight. So why am I constantly made to feel like my weight is the problem in my love life?


I would just blame it on the casual sex culture .... this just makes it harder for anyone (no matter our gender, shape, size or color) to find something authentic...

I'm guessing this woman wants what many of us want...deep abiding love, to find that special person who compliments her, who'll stand beside her, feeling accepted for all that she is, her quirks as well as some extra lbs... why it's probably most important (looks should be secondary) - to at least weed out those who are just looking to hook up for a night, who will throw a curvy compliment.......is this all she wants ??

I realize others will take something completely different away from that article... but this is where my brain went..


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Ok I took a moment and read the article.. Not sure what I got out of it... other than this woman is having a lot of casual sex...and she is basing her new way of thinking on what one of these men said to her..
> 
> 
> The whole premises of this article is written about such men.. and surely there are such men (like our guy friend)... but why would anyone deny themselves true happiness and fulfillment , not to mention a lot more options out there - if they could ?? .. it's hard for me to wrap my brain around that one...
> ...


Thanks for reading the article and sharing your thoughts, SA. 

I guess I did not consider the casual sex element that may be there. I just thought it was interesting to hear her perspective on her body and relationships. 

I especially admired her honesty about her body. How many women can be that honest with themselves? That takes courage and self-acceptance to a degree that I know I do not have. I wish I did.

What did you think of her comment that her slimmer friends have the same relationship problems she does, but no one ever mentions their weight as being a factor?

When we read CWI, we see that overweight, unattractive women do not have a corner on being cheated on. There seems to be a wide variety of women who go through that heartache. 


I thought this bit about the history of thinness gaining importance in American culture was interesting:

_"Regardless, slim bodies only became desirable once mass-marketing in fashion began taking place as well as the marketing of diets.

It was around this time that dress sizes became standardized and the discovery of the calorie suddenly forced weight monitoring to enter public consciousness, according to gastronomist Sarah Lohman. In other words, diets turned into marketable, salable products. By the 1920s, "most American women were either on a diet or feeling guilty about not dieting. And the rest is history." Our whole perception of beauty in relation to thinness is essentially manifested by people throughout history looking to profit off of our self-esteem, and we fell for their gimmicks. We fell for them hard."_

And we are still falling for them, 100 years later. Some of us, anyway. The author seems to have overcome it.


I thought this was interesting, too:

_As it turns out, attraction has a lot less to do with looks than we think. According to science, *a big part of sexual attraction boils down to how fertile we smell, personality traits like kindness and intelligence, and something Page calls "emotional attraction," which is basically how well you "click" with someone*. "To think that because you're of a certain shape, or weight, that people are not going to be attracted to you is just not true."_

I bet that was what drew Sam to his current wife, fundamentally.


Okay, back to the body shame some of us feel:

_"In order to end the shame that occurs on this level, women—and not just fat women—need to accept our bodies as they are. Not just for our own sake, but for the sake of making our partners feel less shame, too. As Page explained, *the parts of us we feel the most shameful towards just might be the very parts our partner is turned on by*."_

I know the bolded is true in my relationship. I do not understand it, at all. But I know it is true. And it really messes with my mind. How can it possibly be true when it is so at odds with perceived social norms and, of course, advertising?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> And could it be...turn this around (plenty of women care too about body type).. I have another bigger friend.. she only goes for THIN MEN...Maybe just maybe these bigger girls , since they've slept with some hotties themselves...don't want the bigger guys !
> 
> ..


I think this is a problem in our "you go girl" society. Women who can have one stands with what one may consider a 9 or a 10, then believe that they can get a 9 or a 10 for a long term relationship. 

On another message board, a woman admitted that she was running two profiles -- one for a long term relationship and one for a hook up. She said that for a hook up, she was getting interest from hot looking guys, some who claimed to have good jobs. For the long term relationship profile, she got responses mostly from 5 to 7s.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> I know the bolded is true in my relationship. I do not understand it, at all. But I know it is true. And it really messes with my mind. How can it possibly be true when it is so at odds with perceived social norms and, of course, advertising?


 Not everyone cares about some extra weight, nor do they care what the social norms are...some of us are just our own people.. we may even like to take on social norms.. I know I frown on many of them !! ....And really "model thin" is TOO THIN for many men.. Marilyn Monroe would be considered FAT to model standards today, which is ridiculous...

She strikes me as a healthy perfect in physical proportions... but I know I know.. there I go.. comparing.. I think all of us wish THAT would just go away.. 

But we all compare...whether it's someone'e intelligence/ their charm, what they do for a living, where they live, we check out their bodies too.. it all goes with the package... 
We strive to find a partner that just "does it" for us...take you for instance... *High intelligence* is what turns YOU ON, you literally need this in a man, you need to look up to him....



> "Example: Me? I don't care too much about the looks. I want an incisive, inquisitive, insightful, irreverent mind. I want someone for whom philosophical discussion is foreplay. I want someone who sometimes makes me go ouch due to their wit and evil sense of humor. "


 ..











> Urban Dictionary: sapiosexual
> 
> One who finds the content's of someone else's mind to be their most attractive attribute, above and before their physical characteristics. From the Latin root "sapien", meaning wise. The term is now becoming mainstream with dating apps such as ******* and Sapio giving users the ability to define their sexual orientations as "Sapiosexual."
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Not everyone cares about some extra weight, nor do they care what the social norms are...some of us are just our own people.. we may even like to take on social norms.. I know I frown on many of them !! ....And really "model thin" is TOO THIN for many men.. Marilyn Monroe would be considered FAT to model standards today, which is ridiculous...
> 
> She strikes me as a healthy perfect in physical proportions... but I know I know.. there I go.. comparing.. I think all of us wish THAT would just go away..
> 
> ...


Yes, you are absolutely right. I am a sapiosexual. Funny how there are all these specific terms nowadays. 

If I thought I were stronger than a man, whether intellectually or emotionally, and certainly physically, lol, that would be a turn off. 

I don't want to have to carry a man. I do not want to be responsible for a relationship. I am not attracted to men I perceive as male submissives, even if I appreciate them and am perfectly happy to be friends with them. 

I want to be inspired. And intellectual and emotional strength inspire me.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Thanks for reading the article and sharing your thoughts, SA.
> 
> I guess I did not consider the casual sex element that may be there. I just thought it was interesting to hear her perspective on her body and relationships.
> 
> ...


That, and her fantastic rack, butt and legs


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> That, and her fantastic rack, butt and legs


Lol, Sam.


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## ChipperE (Nov 16, 2016)

I'm currently going through a divorce because my husband is pissed I've stopped working out intensely because my career has become more demanding. I've gained a little weight but can still wear the same clothes. He never said anything about it until one day when he said essentially he was done because of my lack of gym commitment (and I still worked out!). And if I'd have started a year earlier he wouldn't be divorcing me. 

So I think if someone's body is important to their spouse they should ADDRESS it tactfully and encourage. And before they get pissed about it. And then they should be honest that they want a partner of a certain body type. Anything less than that honesty will eventually fester.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ChipperE said:


> I'm currently going through a divorce because my husband is pissed I've stopped working out intensely because my career has become more demanding. I've gained a little weight but can still wear the same clothes. He never said anything about it until one day when he said essentially he was done because of my lack of gym commitment (and I still worked out!). And if I'd have started a year earlier he wouldn't be divorcing me.
> 
> So I think if someone's body is important to their spouse they should ADDRESS it tactfully and encourage. And before they get pissed about it. And then they should be honest that they want a partner of a certain body type. Anything less than that honesty will eventually fester.


I doubt that is the reason he is done. And even if it is, would you really want to stay with someone whose love is conditioned on that?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I agree. And it can't be much of a weight gain, if your clothes still fit! I'm curious is your divorcing husband attractive in every way? Any loss of muscle mass with age? Thinning hair?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jld said:


> I doubt that is the reason he is done. And even if it is, would you really want to stay with someone whose love is conditioned on that?


Stick around, you may be posting on some of the sections of this message board.


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