# Fog sucks



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

After reading through many of these posts it seems clear what a LS is supposed to do when they found out about a EA/PA - make it stop, do 180, set boundaries and tell WS how it will be. etc.

Of course when the WS is in the fog why on earth would they want to? They can't see beyond their own private parts, how can you expect them to start thinking about the consequences of their actions, as we've all seen the WS just doesn't they live in a fantasy.

So as the LS who found out about EA/PA ad who knows their WS is in the fog, when you put the ultimatum of divorce and they accept it, or heck like in my case she was the one who asked for it first (though at the time I didn't know about the affair or that she was in the fog, just that she wasn't behaving normally) what then? Just simply go through with it?? Why the f*ck can't I fight for it, I am so angry that she isn't even giving me anything to fight for, atleast then if I lose it seems like its for a reason. It's all just so empty.

And so now she is having relationships with new people already and expects me to not feel offended because I'm supposed to know it's over?? She left the marriage but didn't have the courage to let me know, I was still in it and her new relationships still feel like new affairs. It still feels like its my duty to put a stop to it, and as long as I try I'm not letting go, its fighting a futile battle... how do we as LS let go of that shred of obligation we have and still feel like we're doing the right thing, because sitting by watching the one we love the most destroy their life is, based on all our moral lessons, is the wrong thing to do. Why should we take on the guilt so that the WS can go fulfill their short term desires? What a f*cked up situation this is.


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## reallyover? (Jun 21, 2011)

Lon, right there with you my friend. W had EA for 8 months, committed to NC and violated it 4 months later. Not to try to one up you, but the last thing I want is a D and I had to file for it yesterday to keep from getting crucified. I hope that realization of what a D means will snap her out of it but not really able to count on it. Still working 180 but so frickin brutal trying to walk away from what I want the most (assuming she snaps out of it). WTF indeed.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Lon,
You are correct it is a f*ucked up stuation period.

There are thing you can do by making the affair as uncomfortable as possible by exposing the evidence that she was sleeping around to everyone that matters.

You can kick them out...distance your self from them, but the bottom line is if you love them then let them go. 

Just like addicts, they will not see the damage they have caused until it is much to late. Alone in a dirty house full of cats waiting for the post man to find them dead in a pile of cat boo.

As hard as it is the only thing you can to is get up and show her and your self that you are confident in moving on with out them. Confident that you will succeed with or with out them.

Show the DS that you are stronger and better then them and you are rightous and they are weak. 

Its all about additude and giving the perception that you are better off without them. By showing the DS that you are better with out them...making them second guess there dicisions.

When you can walk around with your head held high nowing you are better then them, showing them you are batter man with out them and that they just brought the bad out of you is the best revenge.

When you can show them you are better off with out them is like saying it was you that made me the kind of person I didn't want to be.

You have no control over your DS, but you do have control over how you act and the behaviors you want to have. Do not let them define you as a person that lost or gave up, but as a better person with out them. 

You knows they might see the change in you and want to come back?

Its not what knocks us down that counts, it's how we get back up that matters!


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

reallyover? said:


> ...the last thing I want is a D and I had to file for it yesterday to keep from getting crucified. I hope that realization of what a D means will snap her out of it but not really able to count on it. Still working 180 but so frickin brutal trying to walk away from what I want the most (assuming she snaps out of it). WTF indeed.


I know, I too don't want a D just want her to smarten up, but then am I trying to hold onto who she is, or just who I wanted her to be? And on the other hand, in the light I see her in now she is really not someone I want to be with - what has been seen can't be unseen so maybe now is my chance to get out while I can. It will be sickening for me too when I get the divorce going... but not until after I take a short vacation with my son starting this weekend!


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

the guy said:


> There are thing you can do by making the affair as uncomfortable as possible by exposing the evidence that she was sleeping around to everyone that matters.


But is that really my right to, now that neither of us wants to reconcile at this point? Even though these new relationships may not have even started until after we were separated and planning divorce?

I did reveal the affair to my in-laws, and they were no longer in the dark about things, W was really pissed off at me but I don't really care.



the guy said:


> ...You can kick them out...distance your self from them, but the bottom line is if you love them then let them go.


So some conflicting suggestions by you... I do love her, I want her happy, would have preferred if it would have been with me, and I don't want any kind of revenge on her. Anyways your reply definitely has helped me to see for myself the way I need to let go (a bit).


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Keep in mind that your WW as she is now, is not the woman you married. That person is already dead. She is no longer your responsibility.

Look, when my first wife cheated, I put D on the table and she walked out and never looked back. She was more than happy to go back to being single and to her OM. So I felt that some of these WS never come out of the fog, yet as Jellybeans once said, they do come out of the fog sooner or later, but you won't know about it. 

Either way, I moved on and found someone better, or so I thought until this one had an EA on me 20 years later. :scratchhead:


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

LM, thats the thing if she never went into the fog we could have worked this out even if it still meant divorce (I think it still would hurt a lot but atleast that betrayal of trust wouldn't have cut me so deep). So is the real W dead or just in the fog, and if its just the fog shouldn't I as her protector who made a vow to her be there when she comes out?? yes I know the real answer, she broke the vows they are null now, but part of my psyche doesn't accept the real answer yet and I dont' really know how to make it.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Lon said:


> So as the LS who found out about EA/PA ad who knows their WS is in the fog, when you put the ultimatum of divorce and they accept it, or heck like in my case she was the one who asked for it first (though at the time I didn't know about the affair or that she was in the fog, just that she wasn't behaving normally) what then?


Then it means the WS was never really committed to making the marriage work. Sad, but true. Better to find out now instead of waiting for a a year or more for the WS to cut off the affair. 



Lon said:


> Just simply go through with it?? Why the f*ck can't I fight for it, I am so angry that she isn't even giving me anything to fight for, atleast then if I lose it seems like its for a reason. It's all just so empty..


It DOES suck but ya know what--never fight anyone on what they want. NEVER EVER chase a dog that is running away from you. The more you fight/beg/plead/pursue--the worse off you will be. Always. Every time. It has the OPPOSITE effect of what you want. That is why it's so improtant to let them go and detach stat. When someone tells you they are done and want out, open up the door and let them go.




Lon said:


> Why should we take on the guilt so that the WS can go fulfill their short term desires? What a f*cked up situation this is.


You shouldn't ever take on their guilt. You didn't do wrong. They did. So don't cover up for them. Expose their lies if asked. Expose the affair to other BS', etc. 



lordmayhem said:


> Keep in mind that your WW as she is now, is not the woman you married. That person is already dead.


THIS! The old marriage is gone and over. Even if you do get back together, it will be a new marriage.



lordmayhem said:


> So I felt that some of these WS never come out of the fog, yet as Jellybeans once said, they do come out of the fog sooner or later, but you won't know about it.


Well sometimes they WILL apologize or make reference to what they did but you may or may not ever hear about it frm their directly. I firmly do believe that the fog does lift at some point in time for everyone--for the DS and for the BS. Yes, the BS has their own fog they go through (their fog is the "I can't let go/this isn't really happening/he/she doesn't really mean it's over").

Mayhem, are you still married? Can't remember.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Lon said:


> LM, thats the thing if she never went into the fog we could have worked this out even if it still meant divorce (I think it still would hurt a lot but atleast that betrayal of trust wouldn't have cut me so deep). So is the real W dead or just in the fog, and if its just the fog shouldn't I as her protector who made a vow to her be there when she comes out?? yes I know the real answer, she broke the vows they are null now, but part of my psyche doesn't accept the real answer yet and I dont' really know how to make it.


I don't see how she could have an affair without going into the fog. You're still raw from this betrayal that's why part of you can't accept it. Let me tell you something, even for months, even a couple of years afterward, I kept waiting and waiting for some sign that she wanted to come home. Even when I was in this relationship with my soon to be new wife, I feel that if my first wife would have came back begging on her knees, that I would have taken her back. And that's just terrible.

It's unhealthy, and makes you a doormat. So all I can tell you is that pining for her is normal. You are in mourning for the old marriage, what she used to be. Just don't make the same mistake I did, which was being hung up on her for a long time. I certainly wish I had known about the 180 then and gone into IC. But I was stationed overseas then, and my chaplain wasn't really much help.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Mayhem, are you still married? Can't remember.


Yeah, I'm in R with this one, just going through the motions. Just feeling numb is all. She's meeting all my requirements for R. Its just the spark I had for her isnt there anymore. At this point its just "cheaper to keep her" and for the youngest kid.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Then it means the WS was never really committed to making the marriage work. Sad, but true. Better to find out now instead of waiting for a a year or more for the WS to cut off the affair.


Yeah, I think this is true. She keeps saying she tried to work on it then turns the blame back on me somehow saying she didn't see me changing or trying to do anything different (well you didn't really look hard then) maybe on the outside the motions were similar but my attitude was definitely better and I was making small accomplishments, it was never going to change overnight.

It's not that I'm holding out for her return, I know its over, just trying to wrestle with the blame she's pinned on me - I need to understand the things I let myself down on in the marriage (which certainly doesn't include her decision to have PA). In fact I certainly don't want our old marriage, it was unhappy (miserable in her words). It's the "potential" marriage we could have had if things didn't go so far off track, not knowing how good it could have been. But now that is just my fantasy, time to embrace reality again.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Lon said:


> It's not that I'm holding out for her return, I know its over, just trying to wrestle with the blame she's pinned on me - I need to understand the things I let myself down on in the marriage (which certainly doesn't include her decision to have PA). In fact I certainly don't want our old marriage, it was unhappy (miserable in her words). It's the "potential" marriage we could have had if things didn't go so far off track, not knowing how good it could have been. But now that is just my fantasy, time to embrace reality again.


Just take your hard won lessons that you've learned about yourself to make yourself into a better man and husband, and integrate them into your next relationship. I know I did. Even then, there's no guarantee.

Be wary of having a rebound relationship while you're still healing. The reality is that this is a chapter of your life that you will move on from, and that you are going to make a better husband and make some lucky woman very happy. Look to the future.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> ...you are going to make a better husband and make some lucky woman very happy. Look to the future.


I'm onboard with that :smthumbup:

in fact one of our mutual friends whom isn't taking sides but doesn't approve of my wife's choices, even told me (in a way that kind of made me feel worthy) that: "don't worry someone will snatch you up"

so I am definitely looking to the future just feel kind of trapped in the moment...


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Lon,
I was just pointing out the different things in general and what people do to fight affairs. Each case is always different. Different things work for different folks.

I do understand that R is not in *her* thought process, and that was my point, its not about her any more, its about you, and the things folks do to fight the affair can help there own situation, but in your case its all about you now, In my opinion there's no changing her other then for her to someday look at you...a man she once loved and how much he's change for the better.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Lon said:


> so I am definitely looking to the future just feel kind of trapped in the moment...


I hear you bro, been there. Month and months worth of the same thoughts and feelings your having now. Most of the uncontrollable thoughts and the acute pain is all gone for me now... just a dull ache from time to time. Even the sharp pain from triggers is quick and easily mananged now. 

I read your posts and from someone that has mostly negotiated my way through this mess... and has read 100,000,000,000,000,000 posts and countless books and articles and anything I could get me hands on... 

I just wanted to say, your doing good man. This is all normal, your thought processes and the reflections your having are perfectly normal and sound healthy.. you are "Coping with infidelity". BTW, thats a compliment.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I just wanted to say, your doing good man. This is all normal, your thought processes and the reflections your having are perfectly normal and sound healthy.. you are "Coping with infidelity". BTW, thats a compliment.


Thanks PIT... I KNOW I'm coping well, as well as I possibly could, its the most confident I've been for so long, it just sucks that it has cost my marriage to get here.

I also realized something really interesting in the past day or so, that one of my W's biggest beefs is that she says she avoided the home because whenever she is there she thinks she has to do all the work and I just hide in the shadows... I realize now how actually, physically submissive I am in her presence - and she was the leader of the pack I was just awaiting her command! I still feel this anytime she is within earshot or my sights, my mind goes blank and I go into submit mode.

Holy cow how did that happen (I'm actually really beginning to understand the answer to that question) and now its so obvious to me - why couldn't our counselor have pointed this out (ok I understand in hindsight the answer to that too). No wonder she felt the responsibility, she had the command of things and didn't want to be the matriarch, was doing a crappy job but wouldn't let go of the lead...

I've kinda had a revelation but I'm not sure if there is any chance to use it for restoring anything... Also now I'm trying to decide if there really is a role for the submissive man in a marriage or if I even want to be the submissive guy, it hasn't worked for me so far but I know I don't want to dismiss my values in life that make me a good man. I also don't want to have to live according to some formula, I just gotta figure out where I am and moreso where I want to be.


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## HurtinginTN (Feb 22, 2011)

Lon said:


> but not until after I take a short vacation with my son starting this weekend!


That is the most f'ed up thing about these situations. Your son will be the one to suffer the most. My 3 children will be the ones to suffer the most. All of the children in these situations suffer. My wife tried to downplay the effect on the children last night. 

OM's parents left him, he was adopted, the adopted parents divorced, etc. He has 2 kids with a woman he never married that live states away and he never sees. Obviously, he is filling her head with BS that divorce will not affect the children. How in the hell can she not see the BS through the fog?

If it was just me and her, letting go would be extremely easy. I would have done it very long ago. The lifelong effect on the kids is what I have been struggling with. It kills me that she can't see that. This fog is definitely very f'ed up.


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## confused59 (Jun 28, 2011)

Hey guys, just need to jump in here. i have gotten some really good advice so far from u guys. I have finally realized that my W is having a EA/PA, and has been for a while. i have just been in denial about it. everyone (friends/family) has said she wouldn't do that, until The Guy pointed it out to me.... How stupid i have been, Im a practicioner in the criminal justice field, and so i know what people are capable of and how people can do things that you would have never thought they would do.

Question: It has only been 1 1/2 weeks since this separation started, obviously, she was just waiting till she got backed in a corner, and then bailed. so how do i go about it now?

she moved out and i am moving out asap (rental). we have not yet divided stuff but she has been civil so far. my paycheck is direct deposited on friday, so i will need to get money. i have cancelled it, but it won ttake effect until next paycheck. so do i let her know that i know? she has denied to everyone so far. i just want to tell her i know and move on. however, i was thinking i should let our friends and her family know to flush it out. i do not have proof of a PA but just the EA. does anyone have experience in this. i know if i talk to her brother it will get back to her that i know. or should i not say anything until after we have completely separated? at this point i dont think it is going to work out, so i am going to make myself better and move on. But im not the type of person to let something like this go. I was also thinking oof calling the OM's wife and letting her know. im sure this would throw a big monkey wrench in her plans :lol:

any thoughts on this?


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## Shooboomafoo (Mar 30, 2011)

Dont be surprised if you see your DS take on a 180 of their own.
Encircling themselves with "Friends" who have gone thru divorces of their own, brewing their cauldron of bat wings and eyes of newt.

Another coping mechanism, to maintain the illusion of their current "explanation" for why things have turned badly (except of course for their own fault in it by having an affair)

And these types of "Friends" will be readily available to them, and supportive, and almost make you out to be the biggest a-hole on the planet. Just dont worry yourself about that. More Fog!!!

Ive never seen my stbxw need so much "girl Time" in all our marriage. It must take quite a bit of consolation and "girl power" to support a lie of those magnitudes.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Lon said:


> I've kinda had a revelation but I'm not sure if there is any chance to use it for restoring anything... Also now I'm trying to decide if there really is a role for the submissive man in a marriage or if I even want to be the submissive guy


See this is exactly what Im talking about!!... well I dont know if I talk about it but _I know it, I feel it_. It's the answer. It's why your here, it's why this is happening... Maybe it's god's plan, maybe it's fates plan, the universe, I don't know. But I do know there is a reason. It's your time to grow. 

To what end? I don't know. Maybe you need to grow for yourself, maybe you need to grow for your children, there is something you need to give them and your becoming _that person_, Maybe you need to be this new person for the women your going to meet 2 years from now?... I just don't have an answer, but _I know_ you will find it. Someday, it will all make sense. I believe that in my soul. Not just for you, for me for everyone that lives through this. 

Like I eluded too above... It's not really about "restoring" anything per say... It's about you. It's about growth. Your not going to "use" this to effect or manipulate anyone except yourself. But the changes in you and who you are are going to be significant. Without even knowing it, you are going to change and grow for the positive. Maybe you are becoming the person you were meant to be, and this situation and these people have come into your life for this reason? 

The pain and effects on your confidence and abilty to trust will shield you from seeing some of that growth right now, but it will be there. Other people willl see it long before you ever realize and embrace this new person your becoming... But, it there. It's happening. I hesitate to use the "butterfly" analogy, but I struggle to come up with a better description.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

confused59, perhaps it would be better if you start your own thread, that way we don't threadjack Lon's thread and you can go into more detail of your own and get the advice you need.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Shooboomafoo said:


> Dont be surprised if you see your DS take on a 180 of their own.
> Encircling themselves with "Friends" who have gone thru divorces of their own, brewing their cauldron of bat wings and eyes of newt.
> 
> Another coping mechanism, to maintain the illusion of their current "explanation" for why things have turned badly (except of course for their own fault in it by having an affair)
> ...


It's part of the fog alright for the WS to surround themselves with toxic friends who enable and facilitate their current way of thinking. They have usually already drifted away from the ones that would have disapproved of the A. Then they all get together and demonize the BS. Its part of the script.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Lon (and confused59),

The hardest part of the 180 is that "newbies" (excuse the term), have a really hard time believing or understanding it because it seems so counterintuitive to your current thought paradigm. I was there too. You know what brought my wife crying back to me after four months of separation? The 180. Manning up. Getting stronger inside. Becoming more Alpha. Setting boundaries. Not taking her disrespectful sh$t. Do these things. No matter how "damaging" they seem to you right now. They are not damaging. At all.

In those four months, I realized that I didn't have to ever fear my wife. That I had strengths and opinions too. And it's ok to have these boundaries, because that is what makes you...well...you. I became strong. Independent. A man. And once my paradigm changed, I realized that I truly didn't fear losing her. And I still don't. It doesn't mean I don't love her. It just means I know it won't be the end of the world if she tries that shi$t again.

And you know what happened next? She began to realize that too. She knows I won't hesitate to leave her. Because when she reestablished contact with the OM after only two months back, I calmly told her..."Look. If you want to keep this up, that's your decision. I can't control you. Go ahead. But you need to fully understand that I won't be sticking around if you do keep this up. We've done this separation thing once before, and doing it again isn't such a big deal to me this time around. "

So, other than a small blip where the OM tried to contact her yet again, and she didn't respond, I "think" we are past all this crap now. Am I positive? No, of course not. But I know what I'm prepared to do if I find out otherwise.

So...lose the fear. It's holding you back. Truly work on yourself now. Show your DS what she's throwing away. Will she come back? No guarantees. But you will find this awesome inner strength you thought you lost completely but was never truly gone. 

And also..I joined a gym. Made lots of manly man muscles. I figured I needed to up my Body Sex Rating Index a few points, just to gain that extra edge in my Manning Up progress. If not for the wife long term, then the next SO for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Alpha, not sure I consider myself a rookie at this anymore, maybe a sophmore, graduating to junior. But yeah haven't graduated yet. I honestly don't even know if I want my W back, I feel a little bad saying so, I possibly was disrespecting her in that sense because if I feel like this already I must have known before too. But I made vows and was prepared to stand with them my whole life, and despite her drawbacks I am so repelled by I still find her to be the sexiest woman I've known by far. We made amazing love, she even tells me that one of the things she'll miss the most is the fantastic sex, she just wants more of it, lots more by the sounds of it. I guess at least I have confidence in myself that way, just not the confidence to actually get to that point with a woman be it my W or some future partner.

The fact that she is willing to give up despite my apparent gifts and good qualities makes me feel just that more inadequate in the ways I fail. Or I can just attribute it to the fog and realize its her loss.


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## confused59 (Jun 28, 2011)

Sorry Lon, i didn't mean to jump on your thread, new at this. I see a lot of what your going through as the same as me. Kind of funny how that happens, two weeks ago i would have never even thought about being on here or having to deal with this. Maybe that was part of the problem.

Can someone point me in the direction to the 180? cant find it. Thanks


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

confused, I am not offended in the least, I too have jacked other threads when I've read so much I can relate to. Feel free to participate in this thread, I think your comment is still on the topic of the fog and how us BS have to deal with our DS.


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## AppleDucklings (Mar 27, 2011)

And also..I joined a gym. Made lots of manly man muscles. I figured I needed to up my Body Sex Rating Index a few points, just to gain that extra edge in my Manning Up progress. If not for the wife long term, then the next SO for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

:ezpi_wink1: whistles at you for that extra boost of self confidence


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

The 180 can be found here....

Marriage Builders® Discussion Forums: Divorce busting 180 degree list
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

AppleDucklings said:


> :ezpi_wink1: whistles at you for that extra boost of self confidence



As long as you don't start calling me an asshat. Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Numb-badger (May 18, 2011)

Asshat - It's back and I LOVE IT!

National Asshat day. It's a winner


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## AppleDucklings (Mar 27, 2011)

Numb-badger said:


> Asshat - It's back and I LOVE IT!
> 
> National Asshat day. It's a winner


:lol: Asshat. The word makes me giggle each time I hear it. It's just fun to say


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