# I havent seen a thread like one....



## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

I cannot seem to find a situation similar to mine. Wehave been married for 18 year and have 2 children.

My H and I have not been getting on for the past few months, mainly due to my depression and inability to function due to anti-depressants and I was also very very cold to him, no hugs, no texts, I just ............ I don't know.

4 weeks ago, he met OW, he met her on the Saturday and came home Tuesday night and said "this isn't working is it"? I said "no, just move out"......

I had no idea about OW (obviously). Since then he has been texting, very depressed, signed off work but said she was giving him lots of attention etc. he said he wished I could be "the old me".

She send lots of abusive texts to which I do not reply and I am seeing my Solictor next week.

H wants us to be friends for the sake of our children and get along and always want to be there for me, when ever I need him???????????. When he visits he calls me babe, darling, honey???

She knows nothing of him visiting apart from into the 2nd week, when I sent her every text he sent me...... which wasn't a good idea.

He calls telling me is not happy, he is depressed but "she has been through a lot".

I told him no contact unless it's regarding the children, as I am ill and her constant texts are making me unwell. I have not ate for 4 weeks. I asked his Mum to get through to him about the texts, she did and he called on Thurday, I ignored the call.

Saturday he called and texted asking why we cannot get on for sake of boys and could we talk, he came down, we talked for a bit, it was strange, he asked me to stop calling her.....I said I NEVER call her, he said they had been having calls at 2.00am (not me).

He asked to come down today, I asked him to call today and I would decide. He then texted last night saying "things not good here sorry if you start getting texts, really sorry".....

Then he phoned 3 times between 11.00 and 12.00pm I ignored.

He then texted this morning to say "things not good here will call you on way to gym"?????

Then I receive a text from her telling me he is with her now and to accept it and stop phoning him, then he comes down again on Sunday (briefly for no apparent reason talking suicide saying his life in in tatters).

Basically he does not know her, and I have been doing some digging and have found out she has been involved in drugs and has been in prison (he did not know this until I told him).

He then came down again on Monday, I was having an off day so couldn't put up the pretance of "being happy" and cried most of the time he was here and told him he was visitng too often.

He then arranged to come down and see the children last night (behind her back) (I cannot even text him as she checks every text).

In 30 minutes he mentioned "me getting off anti-depresanst and coming back" "spending christmas with them" and asking me not to ever text him as he doesn't want to stop coming down to see us and if she finds out that will have to stop.

He then texted on the way home saying his head was a mess and he was having a little cry before going back an it was nice to be with us though.

I act happy, flippant when he is here.

I It hurts like hell though. What is he doing ???? What should I be doing?


He blames this all on my anti-depressants and makes out OW is more of a friend........ They did change me, they zombified me and I had no libido.

I am trying 180 but he is phoning/texting me ? I have texted him once in answer to his text and she found it he got hell.

Any advice would be grateful.


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## jessi (Feb 11, 2009)

Look, this is totally your decision to what you are willing to put up with......
Your husband is involved with another woman, his deicision, this has nothing to do with you.....don't take on that responsibility.....
He is a mess and is trying to get something from both of you, she sounds like a problem and not something you should attach yourself to......
This is what I would do, tell your husband that you still love him and that you would be willing to work together to see if you can fix the marriage and your relationship.....
But not while he is involved with another woman......if this is his choice then you don't want any part of him while he is making this decision.......
I would tell everyone close to you what he is doing in the marriage and explain to them that if they could talk to him that would be appreciated...........
Tell him he is welcome to see the children but you will have to arrange that through a friend of the marriage so you can protect yourself from the pain he is choosing to inflict on you by having his affair.......
Tell him you have to concentrate on your health and that his situation is making things worse for you....
Tell him if this is what his choice is then you will seek legal counsel to protect yourself and your children......Tell him you own your responsibility in the marriage breakdown but this is to much to expect from you......
I would go NO CONTACT with him until he ends things with the OW............
You need to protect yourself, until he understands your boundaries he will just continue with trying to have both of you, this is the only way to save your marriage.........read all you can on exposure and not accepting the affair........
Good luck and post here lots of good folks willing to help, a lot of marriages have been saved from a lot of difficult situations.....
You are not alone......one person can make a difference.........


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Okay, he called to talk tonight, said he couldnt take children out Friday.

So I used this opportunity to tell him I do not want to see/hear from him unless necessary. I told him whilst I am prepared to make the marriage work I cannot whilst he is living with another woman as it is making me unwell and I need to work on my future.

He sounded very dissapointed.

We will see if he does get in contact.


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## jessi (Feb 11, 2009)

This is a good first step, now you need to stick with it, do not answer the phone, do not text him or answer any texts.....he will not believe you if you do not live up to your word.....
Remember he is in the affair fog, so don't expect anything from him, don't believe anything he says.......
You have drawn the line, now work on yourself and believe in your marriage and what you two have in your history together.....
He will soon realize with you out of his life what he is giving up.....but this might take some time, you job now is to stick to your guns and don't get weak..........work on getting healthy, go for walks, take care of your children, spend time with family and freinds, if he comes to his senses and does the right thing then you can work out some rules but that is way down the road from now........
Self reflection and really understanding what you want out of this life is needed for both of you..........
post and vent here, stay strong......


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Where will I find topics on him not accepting the affair ?

He is like a different person.

He wanted to come down today, texted said noI am getting ready for a Halloween party (clearly I am not) he called I did not answer, he texted saying "mabe you will meet someone nicer than me xx"?


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## jessi (Feb 11, 2009)

Right now don't answer his text messages.....let him stew about where he is in his life now.....
He is not thinking straight and I would look up reverse babble, right now he isn't making any sense.....you have to prepare yourself for a conversation about his affair, when he says maybe you will find someone else that is better, you could answer like this, yes maybe I could find someone who treats me better, someone who is faithful to me......
What ever he says agree with a positive spin on it for you and what you need in this life......
But for right now, educate yourself about affairs, fog babble and Plan A and Plan B..........recovering your marriage and keeping you safe from more pain inflicted by the affair that continues.......
Stay strong........protect yourself.......


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> He is not thinking straight and I would look up reverse babble


Awesome suggestion, jessi - been to MB any? 

Here is a thread from Orchid over there that shows how to use the technique. Very effective.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Thank you.

Another forum to join tomorrow!

So far he has texted saying he wants us to be amicable and why is everything so difficult with me. i wish I knew some reverse babble back to that......

I did reply but only to say "yes we can be for the boys".

I am going to go back to ignoring unless it is about the boys.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Tilly~

We have an article that walks you through step-by-step how to end an affair: "Seven Steps to Ending The Affair" however just so you know, you're right! Your situation is a little unusual. Based on what you've said, you were married 18 years, you were on anti-depressants that zombified you, and roughly 5 weeks ago your hubby moved out to live with the OW. Since then he thinks you call her to harass her, she definitely does call you to harass you, and he has been contacting YOU saying that he feels depressed--wanting you to "get along for the sake of the boys"--saying he's "with her" but then the next moment coming over wanting to spend time. So his words say one thing, his actions say another, and all-in-all it is a GIGANTIC disaster. 

Even if this is extremely confusing and it feels like craziness, those steps are there and in order for a reason. It may feel like your case is unique--and honestly it is a bit different--but if you look at the plan it will cut through all the swirling craziness and make your actions clear. Rather than feeling out of control and discarded, you'll be able to think clearly and figure out what you want to do. So let me tell you the very first couple of steps--which would actually make a LOT of sense for you! I think step two right now would be PERFECT for you. 

Step One is "Gather Evidence". This step is for people who have that nagging feeling that something is wrong, but if they try to talk to their spouse about it, they are told "Oh it's nothing" "You're making a mountain out of a molehill" "We're just friends" or "You have a jealousy issue." Still somehow their instinct tells them that something is not right and this first step is to gather evidence--get the facts! It is particularly scary to think that you can't trust your spouse's honesty--but what's worse is when you think you can't trust YOURSELF and your gut feelings. So when a Loyal Spouse (LS) gathers evidence of the affair, it is not to get such undeniable evidence that the Disloyal Spouse (DS) will cave in and confess; it's to prove to yourself that you're not nuts, you aren't making it up, and you can trust yourself. Then you'd go onto Step Two, because you've gathered evidence and are convinced there is an affair. In YOUR instance, your hubby has not even denied there is an affair, so you really don't need to do this part. You know there is adultery, and he isn't hiding it. Sooo...go to step two. 

Step Two is "Confront". I personally think this step would be PERFECT for you, and here's why. Your hubby is trying to get you to meet some of his needs (like caring for the kids, house, bills, being "civil" etc.) and get the OW to meet some of his other needs (probably admiration and sex). He waffles back and forth between getting the admiration and sex, but not really wanting to lose the house, kids, bills, etc. with you. So I personally suggest that you do a little research and when you are mentally prepared, ask for a time to meet with him alone and in public. I would personally recommend learning about How Affairs Start and possibly reading about Love Kindlers and Love Extinguishers. Pay attention both to the ways that he has extinguished your love, but also be honest with yourself about the ways you extinguished his. My guess is that the anti-depressant zombie state probably is involved in putting out that fire--don't you think?

When you have this meeting, tell him right out loud that you understand he is with OW and you understand that is adultery. Tell him that you have done some learning and realize that there were some things you did to contribute to this, but that in no way will you participate in, support, encourage or allow someone to be in your life who is also involved in adultery. Tell him that you married him and promised him to forsake all others, and you are willing to work on yourself and work with him to build a happy, loving marriage--but that you are NOT willing to have a third person involved in your marriage. If he wants *YOU* he needs to give you 100% of his affection and loyalty. Then end by telling him that you are asking him to end his affair and end all contact right now, asking him to agree to being transparently honest with you, and asking him to agree to working on his personal issues and marriage issues while you also agree to work on your personal issues and marriage issues. 

This step--Step Two "Confront"--puts him on notice that you do will not participate in doing what's wrong, that you won't be manipulated or guilt-ed into meeting his needs, and that the only life partner you accept in one who'll give you 100% of his affection and loyalty. You ask him to do the right thing, and even go so far as to say that you are willing to hold up your end of the bargain, do the work, and forgive! He is an adult and he has a choice: either come home and build the love he wants in the marriage, or stay in the affair and experience the painful natural consequences of his choice. This is his chance to do the right thing and do it with some self-dignity and pride in tact.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Thank you.

Yes it was the antidepressants, thankfully I felt I could not feel much worse to have now stopped them and feel quite good!! Happy at times 

I have tried 2nd stage but perhaps I am not making myself clear enough.

He just mumbles "oh so you don't want to see me anymore, how can I just forget you after married 14 years knowing each other 16" ??? -* An idea of an answer to this would be good
*

I ignore this because he has obviously not listened to a word I have said.


Should I stay non contact ?


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Goo day. No contact. I did Love Extinguishers and wonder if even want this an back in my life. 

I wish I could feel like this all the time.

I often wonder if he had just left, I would be fine but it is because he is with someone else it hurts so much.

Perhaps that is my pride.

The thought of him sleeping with someone else makes me physically sick so any time it comes to mind I think of him being here and at his worst.

On a more positive note I did cold turkey for 2 weeks on my zombie pills and feel better, more clear headed, not forgetting things, more awake. I also ate some chicken soup without feeling nauseous.

I am now back to weight I was pre-married life. 

I have ordered Surviving an Affair and spent much of today at MB.

My H does not see this as an affair, as he left me first, then told me about OW. :scratchhead:

I need to get out more.

Hopefully tomorrow will be as good as today.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Brief update.

H called today as he received the CSA papers to make him pay money to the boys.

He doesn't want this and wants to set up a standing order to pay for the boys ? 

He also said he back was at work and I could hear a 2 year old in the background. He said he will receive no money this week but will receive money next week and will pay weekly after that. 

He does not want to involve Solictors.

He is still on the Tenanacy for this house, which basically means he has the right to come and go, I have asked him many times to simply visit the council and sign a form the take his name off the Tenancy.

He said if he does this he will be asked lots of questions and may have to report me for claiming benefit when I was not supposed to (which I did for 2 months).

*I don't know why he will not just take his name off the Tenancy?
*

Any ideas?

I told him I would not let the boys be hurt by his saying he will visit and then he does not, so will wait for him to call to arrange a visit. He asked if he could call and speak with them tonight, I said yes and if his numbe does come up will give the phone to the boys.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Please.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I don't know why he will not just take his name off the Tenancy?
> 
> 
> Any ideas?


Maybe he wants to keep that option open?


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

I had thought of that Taneronpete but why does he insist on saying he loves OW and today he made a point of basically saying being married to me has made him ill.

He didn't phone the boys as arranged.

What do you think of him thinking this is not an affair ? Just he met someone else ?

He was brought up as a very strict religious JW until 15 years of age. When his parents moved him out for stealing from the money tin and various other 15 year old things. He is a good person. He is also mentally deranged.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> I have tried 2nd stage but perhaps I am not making myself clear enough.


This would be my guess. I EXTREMELY STRONGLY suggest that you get to mentally prepared, write it down if you have to in order to be very clear, and read it to him if you have to!

_"I understand you are with OW and I understand that is adultery. I have done some learning and realize that there were some things I did to contribute to this, but in no way will I participate in, support, encourage or allow someone to be in my life who is also involved in adultery. I married you and promised to forsake all others, and I am willing to work on myself and work with you to build a happy, loving marriage--but that I am NOT willing to have a third person involved in our marriage. If you want ME, you needs to give me 100% of your affection and loyalty. Period. I am asking you to end your affair and end all contact right now, asking you to agree to being transparently honest with me, and asking you to agree to working on your own personal issues and marriage issues while I also agree to work on my own personal issues and marriage issues. "_

Be firm. Be brief and straight to the point. And ask him right out loud if he's willing to stop right now. Chances are good he'll say he's not, or he doesn't want to, but this is just to make the clear, out loud statement that you know and you are coming to him privately--just between you and him--and asking him to do the right thing. 

Then if he says he's not willing you'd go to Step Three: Disclosure. For now concentrate on doing this step, and being VERY clear about it. 



> He just mumbles "oh so you don't want to see me anymore, how can I just forget you after married 14 years knowing each other 16" ??? - An idea of an answer to this would be good.


Sure as you so rightly guessed this is Disloyal Dizziness, and yep we call it dizziness or fog-talk rather than reality because if he loved you he wouldn't be in an affair; and if he didn't love you he'd leave you and be with the OW. This reply just makes NO SENSE! He wants to "see you" while he sleeps with another woman! He wants to just forget 14 years of marriage while he moves out...and while he has sex with someone else! So it's one of those things that Disloyals say that makes you shake your head and say: "Ummmm...WTH?" :scratchhead:  

The response to Disloyal Dizziness is usually to agree with them and turn it back onto them--bring it back to reality. So here are some examples of what you could say. 

He says: "oh so you don't want to see me anymore, how can I just forget you after married 14 years knowing each other 16?" 
You say: " I agree! How can you forget 16 years together and 14 years of committed marriage all for a little thrill in the sack!"

He says: "oh so you don't want to see me anymore, how can I just forget you after married 14 years knowing each other 16?" 
You say: "That's right. You don't want to see me anymore because you have turned your back on 16 years together and 14 years of marriage rather than facing it together."

He says: "oh so you don't want to see me anymore, how can I just forget you after married 14 years knowing each other 16?"
You say: "You are so right. Why would I want to see someone who forgets 16 years together and can just abandon 14 years of marriage?"

He says: "oh so you don't want to see me anymore, how can I just forget you after married 14 years knowing each other 16?" 
You say: "I agree. I don't want to see you until you can remember being first loves, being together for 16 years, and the promise you made to me 14 years ago to forsake all others!" 

Get the idea?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> H called today as he received the CSA papers to make him pay money to the boys.
> 
> He doesn't want this and wants to set up a standing order to pay for the boys ?


LOL  Well OF COURSE he doesn't want this. He doesn't want court or society to tell him he HAS TO support his children. That does not fit with his affair fantasy. See in his affair fantasy, the OW meets his needs effortlessly because she's his soulmate, you fade off congenially and remain his "friend" so he can continue to blame you for everything bad in his life, the children see how deeply "in love" he is and instantly love her, he keeps the equity in the home and the debt sort of "disappears", and finally he gets to keep his paycheck to spend on the OW and bills because he just has "no extra money" to pay for his children. 
:rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:

Yeah! That's realistic! 

If you file a Child Support Act, he will be required to be a responsible adult and pay for his children! Ahead of himself and his mistress!  And if he doesn't, you will have legal recourse to "make him" do it! So of course he doesn't want this. 



> He does not want to involve Solictors.
> 
> He is still on the Tenanacy for this house, which basically means he has the right to come and go, I have asked him many times to simply visit the council and sign a form the take his name off the Tenancy.
> 
> ...


Again, of course he doesn't want to involve lawyers. He hopes that maybe he can bully you into giving into what he wants, and if you stand up for your family and your own rights he will most likely not get what he wants! Personally I suggest speaking to a lawyer about the Tenancy thing. Here in the USA when you file for divorce you can, at the same time in the filing, ask for a "Exclusive Use" of the family residence. This means that the court orders that "PersonA" gets exclusive use of the marital home and "PersonB" is no longer to live there or enter the residence without PersonA. At that point PersonA has the right to change the locks. 

Do they have something like that by you? It has nothing whatsoever to do with taking his name off of ownership of the house has an asset, but it would be the judge telling him he can not just "come and go as he pleases" and it would NOT involve him having to tell anyone about you claiming benefits when you should not have. However, I will say that if you claimed benefits illegally, you would do well to admit it now, voluntarily, and pay them back. You take that "ammo" out of his arsenal then and he can not use it against you...and it's the right thing to do.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

I seem to be a step ahead of myself. I disclosed to ALL after I was told. This lead to his Father not speaking to him and both parents giving him no support financially.

My family, well they detest him now.

He texted last night whilst I was in bed, we used to watch the same TV programme every Tuesday evening he texted to ask if I watching it and said how riviting it was?!? and asked 

Why I wanted him off the Tenancy??

I told him this is no longer a big deal as I have all the keys to the house but he will have remove his name to if one of us re-marry in the future.

I think I am catching the reverse babble thing????

I'm lost. See his last memory of me was not a nice one (well it was until I sent OW all his texts to me which is completely stupid as I am kicking myself in the foot each time I do IT!!!!!), so I need to see him once more for him to have a nice memory.

I think.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

My Surviving an Affair book arrived yesterday. What a book, I found it difficult to stop reading last night.

I have decided I am going to put a few more deposits in the love bank and then Plan B. 

I also found out this morning she is only 19 years old. I am 36, young enough to be my daughter. 

H is coming by tonight to see the boys (so he has said - have not told boys)

The boys are 10 and 6, they dont really seem to be saying much. I received a from from school yesterday about a group for children whose parents are dealing with divorce/seperation etc. It's for the 10 year old, the 1st session was today and he didn't want to attend so I have kept the form here and will phone the school (he is worried who will be in the Group).

He does not mention H much, he just thinks he will come back.

I am now thinking of Christmas and am very sad. My Mother almost attacked me yesterday, (verbally) said I am her problem and to buck up and stop moping around, she also told me she would have nothing to do with me if I EVER considered taking H back.

It's been 6/7 weeks now since and she has been to see me once (she lives 4 streets away). She hugged me once, possibly in the first week.

I wondered if I left some Divorce material lying around that may help H think if he is here? Somehow, or maybe not. Perhaps I should go and read my book again.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Just an update.

We agreed yesterday morning that he would come visit the boys after school, this was agreed via telephone.

I receive a text at 1pmish asking "did you get my msg"? me: "what msg did I miss one" anyway after about 2 texts I guess this was NOT H and told OW under the pretance I still thought I was texting H"to go away and play with your teenager".

I recieve a call at 3.00pm from H, asking "what's all this about texts"?? I explain, he said he sent no texts.....

I receive another call at 7.30pm asking "if I can talk" (not really but I did) then he just rambled inot anger with her snooping at his phone he cannot text me, he cannot see me, so I hung up. 

I have heard THAT LOUD voice so many times over the years I didn't deserve to hear it again. Isent him the text again "go away and play with your teenager".

At 2.00AM (I usually have phone down but had on vibrate incase he needed something *WHY????*) I receive a text from OW "get a life".

ARGH! I then receive a text this morning after I very politely pointed out to her that, it was her who was involved with a MM, I have had 16 years with him and part of me always love him, DEAL WITH IT" 

I also told her to stop snooping through his phone as would soon be on the receiving end of exactly the same as me as me as we both know he is quite capable.

She texted back "lol me and H and laughing at you".

I ended telling her to "Take Care of Herself".

I was planning on plan A but if I cannot see him it is almost as if there is no point, she looks through everything, she phones him constantly when he leaves the house.

*Shall I go straight to Plan B?*

I have read most of Surviving an Affair it makes so much sense.

*Anyone any insights as where to go with this mess next ? *

Filed papers for Child Maintenance. I did it weeks ago. I have told everyone, everyone cannot bebelive how "weird" he is acting. Like a child. He was actually talking about beating someone up last night so clearly has NO THOUGHT or REGARD for his CHILDREN, or PARENTS, although week 6/7 he has seen his children 3 times. 

When he is allowed out. *Shall I just start ignoring his calls ?*


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

shameful bump anyone ?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Tilly, listen to Jessi and take inspiration from her, read her posts elsewhere. The essence of Jessi’s message is … If you love your H tell him and leave it at that. Tell him you will work on your marriage with him if and only if he ends his affair. Do not communicate with him unless it’s for “business”. Business is your children, your home and your finances. Never communicate with the OW.

The whole idea is to look after yourself and your children and to leave it totally up to your H if he comes back to you. You quite literally “blank” everything else. How do you do that? You create boundaries for yourself. Here’s an example. “I will never under any circumstances contact or respond to anything from OW”. “I will never respond to anything from H unless it’s concerned with my children, my home or my finances”. If you break your boundaries you will get into some seriously dysfunctional mind games with both your H and the OW and they will drag you down. You have to be intolerant of yourself, your H and OW. Intolerance via your boundaries is where you get your inner strength from.

Read http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/14963-boundaries-men.html. It works for women as well as it does for men.

Well done with coming off the pills. That’s seriously and deeply good. Take your kiddies out for walks, play with them in the park, get a lot of fresh air with them. Speak to your mum and ask her not to be so judgemental of you and tell her right now you need her help and support to get yourself through this. If she can’t do it she can’t do it. You can do this by yourself and with the help of people here.

Bob


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

First thing to do - STOP TALKING TO THE OTHER WOMAN - completely. Ignore her texts (delete them.) Don't respond, even if they do make you mad. Resolve in your mind that right now, she is irrelevant and pretty much non-existent. There is no reason for you to carry on conversations with her. _None._ 

Your talk is with your husband. And here's something to consider: she gets angry at him when he gets texts from you. Good! Send him some. Tell him you love him. Send him sexy texts. 

Let the fireworks begin between them. 

And if he complains, let him know that you and he are married, and that he is cheating on you with a woman who isn't moral enough to stay away from married men. Maybe even ask how he knows she won't cheat on him in the future - after all, her track record is terrible!

And if he responds positively to any sexy texts: tell him that he can have it all, if he makes the choice to leave that woman and come home. Always emphasize the 'coming home' portion - it can become a very comforting thought for him when stress arises between them.

This is YOUR marriage, he is YOUR husband. Always keep that in mind. What that other woman thinks or feels is irrelevant. If anything, if you ever reply to her again, simply request that she never contact you again (there's a legal reason for that). Mark the date you make that request on a calendar for future reference. 

As for 'plan B' or 'plan A' - keep in mind that in almost every case, a plan B fails unless you've already worked a good plan A - you want to establish the thoughts in his head of what you are like, who you are, etc., so that when you cut off contact, he'll experience more of what he is missing. If all he keeps in mind are your faults, fights you've had, etc., he'll welcome the lack of contact as freedom, rather than loss. 

Most importantly: you had better spend some time learning what 'boundaries' are. Work on that, establish some, and then live by them. We can't establish your boundaries here, all we can do is suggest means by which you can determine them. But you have to live by them. It seems to me that if you have any at all, they are being gleefully ignored.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

I have read many of Jessis posts, they are very very knowledgeable.

The last 2 posts seems to be contradicting each other though. 

One saying no contact 

One saying a bit more Plan A

I am now more confused than ever, I even have my Plan B letter typed and ready. 

Sexy texts ?? Wow she and he would freak ut at me for "causing problems" oh **** he is phoning....


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Sorry I said a naughty as I got a fright when the phone rang.

To answer or not to answer ??

I answered.

We briefly chatted about the fact he MUST set days for the children. We spoke about his HATE for his friend. I should explain this. 

When H moved out, he said he needed some "head space"  and was moving in with a work colleague John. His friend sent me a text the next morning asking to meet up. We met up and this is how I found out about OW/Girl, he wasn't exactly honest with me but told me H had left for OW.

When I got home I called H an screamed something at him along the lines of him being dead to me.

One hour later the "friend" phoned and said he had lied and said it out of anger. I know now that H drove to friends house and was crying over the fact I knew and forced friend to call me back.

One week later, he called at night but his phone kept cutting out, I think he was saying "sometimes I do stupid things" and mentioned her children and how bad he felt about everything.
Anyway, H is hurt about that, I said "it would have came out anyway" he said "you don't know how I feel about any of this at all", I explained he had never gave me to opportunity. He them mentioned something about having nowhere to go if did he left OW/G. I said "there is always the put up bed her", him: "what about your family".

I explained that this was nothing to do with my family this was our marriage and when I married him I meant my vows. I also explained I knew why he left.

We went off the subject and he is calling tomorrow to speak to our Son.

tbc/............... This is exhausting.

Some parts of me wonder if I am doing the right thing here or if i should just suffer the heart ache. MY 10 year old upset me tonight though. poor child.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> The last 2 posts seems to be contradicting each other though.
> 
> One saying no contact
> 
> One saying a bit more Plan A


Actually there's no contradiction, it's more of a subaltern. My point is that Plan B cannot work unless you do a good Plan A. If you choose plan B, then plan A must precede (either that, or simply rename Plan B into Plan A). I said nothing about not ending contact - that is something YOU have to choose. As I wrote before: YOU must set your boundaries and YOU must live with them. We can't do it for you. All we can do is suggest paths to take.

There is no problem with ending contact with your husband - he is not respecting your boundaries. The Plan A and Plan B steps are part of an entire sequence of actions, each builds upon the preceding. They rarely work out of sequence - but are very effective if done in sequence. Hence, my point was that Plan B won't be very effective: I did not disagree with ending contact. Altern, not contradiction.

Bob's point of view seems usually to be that your husband's self esteem is far more important than your marriage. From his viewpoint self esteem is the most important thing upon which a man must focus - it thus necessarily follows that this affair might be the best thing for your hubby - if it builds his self view, who he is with is irrelevant!

From my point of view, the affair is wrong, the moral question of it takes precedence over his 'self esteem' and his desires. Correct self esteem is built upon acting morally, and cannot be separated from doing the right thing. In other words, morality precedes (and is thus more important) than your view of your own importance. But Bob and I differ fundamentally: I hold that morality is found externally; and that acting in ways that gratify the self can (and often do) create more problems that they solve. In other words, your opinion of yourself is secondary to external moral standards. 



> I am now more confused than ever, I even have my Plan B letter typed and ready.


My opinion here is that if you intend to cut off contact as a Plan B, make sure that the Plan B is _completely_ thought out before you act. Prepare for all contingencies: no contact is NO contact, not just less contact. If you want to end contact, remember that you still have kids - and that unless you plan for it, they will be a point of contact. A Plan B is nothing to simply jump into: it is a deliberate step, that must be carefully arranged.

One reading of Surviving An Affair is not, in my opinion, sufficient to warrant jumping to the last step they recommend!



> Sexy texts ?? Wow she and he would freak ut at me for "causing problems"


And this is bad...how? The idea is to cause stress for them: affairs are generally built upon pure fantasy (and thus normally fail once real life sets in). You acting like a wife, exercising your rights as his spouse, is completely moral and acceptable. Who cares if they get upset? That stress will begin to point out the flaws they are hiding from one another. 



> Anyway, H is hurt about that, I said "it would have came out anyway" he said "you don't know how I feel about any of this at all", I explained he had never gave me to opportunity.


How he feels about it is irrelevant. He's free to have those feelings - but his actions are wrong. His feelings are leading him into trouble - and destroying his family. And yet he wants you to approve of them? Don't get caught up in that trap: Let him know that his feelings are his to experience, but that his actions are more important: is he willing to come back home?



> He them mentioned something about having nowhere to go if did he left OW/G. I said "there is always the put up bed her", him: "what about your family".


There is also always a cardboard box on the street. Her house is not the entire universe. His objection is pointless. He has a home to come to, if he is willing to end the affair and work on the marriage, no? Thus - he DOES have a place to come. He just doesn't want to make the choices necessary. That is HIS problem, not yours! Don't allow him the pleasure of turning it around on you:

"Oh , but, if I end the affair, YOU said I can't come back!" (poor me - let me keep on with this affair - I don't want to make any HARD decisions!!!)

Well, did you? If not, then what on earth is he yammering about? You are't God - just because you don't allow him back into the home, doesn't mean that his existence will end! He can always find somewhere to sleep. A park bench. A bunk at the Y. A jail bed. There is always somewhere!

My point: calm down and realize that you are not in the wrong here - he is, and he is trying to work things so that he has your approval to keep them up. Moreover, he is trying to manipulate the situation so that he doesn't have to face any consequences.

He's even asking you to not interfere with his affair because he gets in trouble! 

He has to grow a spine.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Thank you. 

Yes again very wise words.

I have received a few texts now.

The first being "how can we ever work this out". I explained it would be very difficult and would take a lot of time, trust, talking, honesty and we could NOT go back to the way things were ever.

He thinks he now has all the guilt of the affair to carry and how we would cope. Again I tried to remember extracts from the book.

He then said his life was a mess and was contemplating suicide, I replied that if suicide was an alternative to here then so be it I cannot change that.

He didn't like that, he said he hadn't made up his mind over death......babble babble and still cannot believe how much I have messed his head up.

I did mess his head up earlier in the year, I felt he gave no respect to me or our boys, he lied, he came and went as he went, he called me names, he was horrid. I involved SW after he smacked my 10 year old and he cannot get over how I could hve done this to him. I also asked him to leave, this was last November, he did move out but begged, pleaded, cried and cried and moved back in December. 

I apologised for doing this once again tonight, I DID over-react but he emptied my love bank I guess. He started filling it up again then I got depressed and stopped making love, going out, spent all hours on here looking at nothing really. I ignored him completely and at times threatened him about moving out again, I was not emotionally attached to him at all, I did not kiss him good night, I stopped texting him, I stopped making lunch.

Then this. So is this is his punishment ???? I guess he is a mess. I don't know if I can even help him anymore even trying all the suggestions in the book. 

I don't know where we are at.

Thank you very much for your feedback it does help so much, all of you.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

H called and spoke with the boys tonight. They are staying away as I am having my bedroom decorated and the contents of IT are in their room.

H called back and aksed if he could come down. 

We spoke a bit, I didn't like to push anything atm as he seems quite mentally in a bad place. 

He did say that when he lived here he was terrified I was going to throw him out again and a few comments I did make, I can understand his thinking. I explained this did not excuse him jumping to OW.

He cannot explain that, all he can say is thought she was someone he could trust and now he has messed up as he doesn't even know her.

He did said he should be here. This is his home. I said that was his decision to make but I would never want our lives to go back to way they were. I also explained it would be difficult for him to leave the relationship he is in, 2 kids, freaky female.

I did say a few times, perhaps he should have no contact with me and then OW would not get angry and he would be happy but he said he would not be.

We will see what happens. He is still very very angry with the ex_friend who introduced him to this female, the friend who told me about this female. I think he thought he would move out for a week/possible 2 to give me a fright but his friend put a spanner in the works by telling me hence, H crying in his friend house.

He is calling to speak with the boys tomorrow. 

I know this may not be of interest but I like to know myself whats happeneing and this is a good place to vent.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Tilly, you play too many games with your husband for your marriage to recover. They need to end, or you don't have a chance!



> We spoke a bit, I didn't like to push anything atm as he seems quite mentally in a bad place.


Your posts raise an awful lot of questions. One thing I wonder is why you are so willing to give him so many passes. If you are truly wishing to get your marriage into recovery, this should be the focus of your conversations with your husband.

When he asks to talk, keep it very short. Ask him if he is willing to end all contact with this other woman, give you absolute transparent honesty and begin work on the marriage _with_ you. If he hesitates, makes an excuse, or says no, then that's the clue that you have nothing to talk about. Hang up.

His 'mental place' is a tool he uses to control you. He won't have to face any problems if he's just oh so depressed and sad. Poor him. No one would want to force a suffering person to suffer more, would they? He gets a pass on accepting responsibility _one more time!_



> He did say that when he lived here he was terrified I was going to throw him out again and a few comments I did make, I can understand his thinking. I explained this did not excuse him jumping to OW.


No, this does not excuse him jumping to another woman - but this sounds like another game between you two. Think about this:

He says that he was 'terrified' (his words - exaggerated to get an emotional response from you, I'm sure) that you were going to 'throw him out _again_.' 

So: he's been thrown out before. Now there are two possible reasons for this - either he did something that was truly a breaking of the marital contract: physical abuse, cheating, etc., or else you use this as a tool to control him when he does things you don't like. 

And a further question arises: why does he obey this commandment of yours? Do you have the law on your side: did the police remove him from the premises? If not, how did you enforce this? Does he just willingly leave home whenever you order him to do it? Why?



> He cannot explain that, all he can say is thought she was someone he could trust and now he has messed up as he doesn't even know her.


He CAN explain it; he won't. He has the capacity to think over things, give a reason or two etc., he has a voice - he can talk. He can write. He can draw pictures, if nothing else! 

A very important suggestion: drop the word "can't" from your vocabulary. We all know the things people "can't" do: they can't breath water, can't fly, can't grow arms out of their foreheads, etc. Replace it with the real word: "won't". 



> He did said he should be here. This is his home. I said that was his decision to make but I would never want our lives to go back to way they were.


He 'should' be there if he is not having an affair. You are quite right, your lives hadn't better go back to the way they were: that lifestyle resulted in an affair.

But tilly - you went on! You gave him an excuse to continue the affair!



> I also explained it would be difficult for him to leave the relationship he is in, 2 kids, freaky female.


This is a load of hogwash! How hard is it to pack up his stuff and drive home? If she makes it hard to get his stuff: how much of a loss is it if he just forgets it all and comes home? No, it is NOT difficult for him to hop in the car and drive somewhere. He does it all the time. 

I suspect something different: I suspect the two of you are so used to living this way that even though it has caused an affair, you insist on maintaining this course: you live from crisis to crisis, and do all you can to extend them. You say you don't want things to go back to the way they were - but isn't that exactly how you are doing it right now?



> I did say a few times, perhaps he should have no contact with me and then OW would not get angry and he would be happy but he said he would not be.


You are offering him the chance to cut communication with you so that his life with his lover will be more peaceful? Why in the world would you give him that choice? If you want something: come out and say it. Don't try to manipulate him into saying it for you! It is not up to him. Cutting that contact is up to you - and your responsibility is to let him know that the REASON you are cutting this contact is because he is choosing another woman over his wife - and you won't be second choice to anyone. He must choose you or her, not both. And it is not up to you to make her life more pleasant. In fact, how she lives should be irrelevant to you! 

So what if she gets angry? So what if he is unhappy? His choice is either she or you: if she isn't making him happy, _whose fault is that?_



> He is still very very angry with the ex_friend who introduced him to this female, the friend who told me about this female. I think he thought he would move out for a week/possible 2 to give me a fright but his friend put a spanner in the works by telling me hence, H crying in his friend house.


So it is his FRIEND'S fault that he chose to cheat on you? Phooey! It is HIS choice, HIS responsibility and HIS problem. The fact that his friend introduced him to someone is in _all ways_ absolutely irrelevant. Your HUSBAND went beyond saying 'hi' to her to 'lets hop into bed!' She went along with it - maybe even invited him. SO what? He could have said 'no thank you, I'm married!' 

Instead....what exactly did he leap to do?

Why are you leaving him so many reasons to avoid taking responsibility?


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Because my my head is mess.

He told me actually thought this girl had been sent to him from his dea gran but realises now that is not the case.

I am thouroughly fed up with this, I spoke a lot last night try Plan A, be nice, his friend, someone he can trust but he is going back to her everytime.

Shall I tell him No Contact until he leaves her ?

Please help ?

Thank you


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

tilly said:


> Because my my head is mess.
> 
> He told me actually thought this girl had been sent to him from his dea gran but realises now that is not the case.
> 
> ...


Tilly, your husband sounds like a bit of a nutter and perhaps you should listen to your mother.

Here’s a boundary for you to tell your husband “I will not talk with you or see you at all unless it’s to do with my home, the children or finances. If you should leave the OW I may consider taking you back into my life again”. Then go No Contact.

Bob


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Thank you.

Yes he is a mess, very mentally ??? Which makes we wonder if I do need him in my life.

There is also a very good/nice/loving side to him, what I am seeing just now is just not him, although I detest the thought of him with her I wouldn't want him here in this current frame of mine, he has been off work 7 weeks now, he is bloomin Manager.

I may just ignore him for a few days as I am not sure what I want anymore.

You know I thought after reading SAF I had it all planned, all would be fine, but I cannot live with him the way he was. So disrespectful, so ME ME ME, he still is, people cannot change no matter how many deposits you put in their love banks right ?

I did send one text today mainly to annoy OW/G my bedroom has just been re-done so I sent a text about all the sex underwear I had found...... (her from his phone) "why are you sending me text like that?????"

"Because you bought it for me". 

Another night of fights for them I hope.
We were happy once.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

That is pure provocation. It’s a hopeless case. Very dysfunctional behaviour.

Bob


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Yes it is.

He is, I think.

She certainly is, she text me this morning to tell me that my husband hated me and to get a life..... I ignored her, I actually wondered who it was at first as I have taken her number out of my telephone. 

I shall remain as I have been doing, expect texting now and then, I will stop that.

I will stop all contact for a week and see what the week brings with it. I have things to do, I have no time to be constantly worrying what H is up to.

STUFF it! 

My reason for telling himto stay with OW was to see the reaction and this was "why are you telling me that".

Now I think perhaps he should, they both seem fairly messed up.

Could be a good match.

Can I ask Affaircare/Tanterlonpete your opinion. Do you think this is a midlife crisis ? I mean if he was happy with OW he would be a work, surely, but he cannot face it all, she keeps his phone as she so paranoid he is coming back to me, he can do whatever he wants their, IE lie in bed all day depressed. 

Is this even worth my efforts ? I am glad I bought SAF as it is a good book, for any relationship.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

added text I would love more opinions/views/help/advice and am trying to take it all in. 

I now print the posts off and read them in bed, then refer back to them.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Tilly, you play too many games with your husband for your marriage to recover. They need to end, or you don't have a chance!
> 
> Yes this is very true.
> 
> ...


I know, I did it for a reaction and liked the reaction but yes I realise I am way over my head with this. I am allowing them to get angry now, fight etc. They have been since the day I found out.

What would you suggest I can do, if anything to salvage this mess. 

NO CONTACT ?



Oh dearwell that didn't work very well at all!! I was attempting to answer every question but they are all in black text.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

LOL


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Both of the following quotes reveal the same problem: lack of boundaries. 



> It was an interdict, I was feeling very unwell and could see no way forward with him at this time as he was using illegal substances and yes I do use this to control him or throw at him and this is why he has left as I have said "It's happening all over again" 3 times.





> I didn't mean I wanted him to leave I meant that after he moved back in and we spoke he made me so many promises and then he started to disrespect me again, not badly but he was slipping all the time.


It may or may not be useful to have someone move out because of drug problems. It can make life somewhat easier for you at the time, but it quite often does not solve the problem. Unless work is done to get off the medication, the problem remains. You ask him to leave, he finds someone to live with who doesn't mind the drugs - may even share them. And so the troubles continue. 

There are two other problems with using a threat like this as a method of control.

First, the use of threats, or crying, or weapons, or any other means of manipulation of someone else in order to control them does not bring about internal change. That is because the problem is with _control_, not the means. People simply never respond favorably to being controlled. At best, they modify their behavior while you are around. But controlling a person reveals that the person doing the control considers themself as superior to the other person. It means that the controller does not consider the controllee to be an equal. 

Second, using the same threat over and over gets old. It becomes like a dripping faucet, easy to ignore, or simply live with it. On top of that, the person being controlled will find ways of getting around the threat - especially if it is used enough times. For example, your husband appeals to your emotions to give him a pass or two. Eventually, he knows that you will get serious and he'll move out. For a while. 

Any boundary you may set regarding this issue must include the condition that he seek help to end this - _before he can come back_. He must then provide proof of this. But you can't make it a threat: a boundary is not a form of control. Instead, you make it clear to him that you cannot be in a marriage where this goes on, and until he is able to prove that it has ended for quite a while, you cannot continue life with him. 

Another problem is that this is a game - pop psychology calls it a dependent/co-dependent state. He has a 'dependent' personality, and you respond by always trying to fix him. Fact is: you cannot fix him. Can't be done. Only he has the ability to choose to stop. 

He knows that you will always be there to rescue him - so he lets things get bad, you get all sorry for him, give him all kinds of support, and let him come back. He knows that he will have to face a little anger, maybe kiss up a bit, but things will soon get back to normal. He'll be able to get back to the old lifestyle for a while - until you get fed up again, and the cycle continues. 

You get a poor, helpless, messed up guy that you can fix, and he gets to be high, lazy and irresponsible. Works out great for both of you. And so life continues the way it has. And it will till YOU change your part of it. When he can no longer count on you giving in, he'll have to find some new way to do things. It may be that he'll move on to someone else; it may be that he'll straighten up.

Regardless: the way things are now are not good for you. Nor him. And since you can't change him, you should probably spend time working on the person you CAN change: you!

I wrote: 



> A very important suggestion: drop the word "can't" from your vocabulary. We all know the things people "can't" do: they can't breath water, can't fly, can't grow arms out of their foreheads, etc. Replace it with the real word: "won't".


Your response:



> I will keep this in mind.


I wasn't writing that to pick on words - I have a specific reason for that. Using the word "can't" means that something is impossible; it implies that the person is a victim, unable to do something. And yet it is an absolute certainty that the things you write he "can't" do are, in reality, things he "won't" do - perhaps he is afraid of your reaction, or he doesn't want to say it, etc. Regardless: he chooses not to do it (all it takes, in this case, is to speak.)

In essence what I am asking you to do is to start seeing things differently. That is a large part of how you will be able to salvage this mess. It means thinking differently: doing things 180 degrees from the way you used to do them. And the substitution of the word "won't" for the word "can't" in your vocabulary is a huge (and yet quite simple) change. Next time he tells you "But I can't do that..." just thing to yourself - or even tell him "No, you WON'T do it."

That change in words empowers you more than you realize!

I asked:



> So what if she gets angry? So what if he is unhappy? His choice is either she or you: if she isn't making him happy, whose fault is that?


You replied:



> I know, I did it for a reaction and liked the reaction but yes I realise I am way over my head with this. I am allowing them to get angry now, fight etc. They have been since the day I found out.


Keep in mind that when you use the word 'allow' you infer that you somehow have control over them. You don't! They would fight, get angry, and so on, even if you were never born. You have nothing to do with it. 

How are you able to control what goes on at their house? How can you 'allow' them to get angry, fight, etc.? How could you stop them from doing it? How would you know at all? 

You take too much upon yourself! It wears a person out! Simplify your life, concentrate on you, not them. Remove yourself from the games, and let your husband suddenly face it on his own. No contact? Maybe. I don't think it is necessary, but it might work. But ONLY if you change in the duration! If all you are doing is giving yourself some breathing time befre stepping back into the ring, the problems will still be there, you'll still get wrapped back up in the, and things will continue the way they are....on and on and on... pain, pain, pain.

On the other hand, if you do remain in contact - you STILL have to change. If your husband DOES contact you, refuse to dance with him. Don't play his games. You know what is right: no illegal stuff in the house, no drug use, no avoidance, take responsibility, etc., etc. Stick to that, don;t accept anything else. Let him choose to change or leave. 

Its up to you.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Thank you, that makes a lot of sense.

I have not sent the letter yet and I will keep my distance.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Well H today received a call from work regarding payments from CSA and I received a very angry telephone call to which I hung up.

The texts, blaming me AGAIN. I advised that he cannot just up and abandon you children for a quick s<>G! He asked why am I always trying to hurt him ??? Because I ask for money for his children ? 

I asked him if realised how much hurt has caused within the whole family with his sordid little affair.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Now he wants me to write a letter stating he will pay £X amount as he doesn't want to go through family tax credit.

He is so unreliable though. I finally sent a text telling him he he caused me unbearable paint & hurt so I want no contactwith him until he gets straight, looses this bitterness he has about ME HURTING HIM and away from OW.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> LOL  Well OF COURSE he doesn't want this. He doesn't want court or society to tell him he HAS TO support his children. That does not fit with his affair fantasy. See in his affair fantasy, the OW meets his needs effortlessly because she's his soulmate, you fade off congenially and remain his "friend" so he can continue to blame you for everything bad in his life, the children see how deeply "in love" he is and instantly love her, he keeps the equity in the home and the debt sort of "disappears", and finally he gets to keep his paycheck to spend on the OW and bills because he just has "no extra money" to pay for his children.
> :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl:
> 
> Yeah! That's realistic!
> ...


*I am basically being forced not to go ahead with this, threats from him, threats from her.* He received the paers and wants me to type out a contract bewteen us stating how much he will pay to get them off his back.

This still leaves me penniliess.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I am basically being forced not to go ahead with this, threats from him, threats from her. He received the paers and wants me to type out a contract bewteen us stating how much he will pay to get them off his back.
> 
> This still leaves me penniliess.


Please explain how you are being forced to do this. Guns involved? Of what do their threats consist? Are the your husband and his lover able to override court decisions? In what way do they have this power?

And how does this leave you penniless? Are you unable to work (disability, etc.?) In any event, the money is not for you, is it? It is for his children. He has that responsibility.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Please explain how you are being forced to do this. Guns involved? Of what do their threats consist? Are the your husband and his lover able to override court decisions? In what way do they have this power?
> _
> 
> No guns just bad threats towards my car, my house, my life, my reporting my children to SW???? I am a bloomin worked as social worker..... It's just all her texts I had to hold myself back yesterday morning from going to her door, I was shaking with anger and everything else,although I have lost so much weight you could blow me over with a feather_
> ...


Yes the money is for the boys and we have managed without it so far. Yes I am off work at the moment Incapacity Benefit so the house gets paid but no school help or help with clothes, school dinners etc. we have joint housing arrears and I have to pay something to this each week and he doesn't help at all, I am on Incapacity Benefit due to taking an overdose after my H left and his g/f texting me all sorts, the pain was unbearable and sometimes I still wish it had worked, although I didn't like the hallucunations at all.


He sent a text yesterday saying "just type up her agreement and we will send if off" I texted back "typed up already" he texted back "are you ok"???" AR$ehole, I said "yes but do not expect a warm welcome here if you are resorting to blackmail"! The idiot STILL isn't at his work.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> No guns just bad threats towards my car, my house, my life, my reporting my children to SW???? I am a bloomin worked as social worker..... It's just all her texts I had to hold myself back yesterday morning from going to her door, I was shaking with anger and everything else,although I have lost so much weight you could blow me over with a feather


Are you saving copies of these threats? Those can be used as legal evidence to obtain some form of a restraining order. You might want to look into that. Regardless, why are you taking them seriously? Have you done anything to warrant turning your children over to the State (other than trying to abandon them via suicide) - or is this all bravado, and bluff?



> Yes the money is for the boys and we have managed without it so far. Yes I am off work at the moment Incapacity Benefit so the house gets paid but no school help or help with clothes, school dinners etc. we have joint housing arrears and I have to pay something to this each week and he doesn't help at all, I am on Incapacity Benefit due to taking an overdose after my H left and his g/f texting me all sorts, the pain was unbearable and sometimes I still wish it had worked, although I didn't like the hallucunations at all.


So in reality, you are not penniless, just having some difficulty. 

Regardless of what he wants, your husband (and you) are responsible for your kids. Not the other woman, and not the government. You are providing some basic needs for them, so you have taken some responsibility for them - but your husband is avoiding his. 

My advice here is to use legal measures to encourage him to take this responsibility. 

The reason is because your husband demonstrates a repeated insistence on avoiding responsibility. Even if you write up an agreement, this does not ensure that he will pay attention. Keep in mind his past actions: he will do something that irritates, you react, he gives in enough to placate you, and as soon as you relax, he goes back to his old behavior. 

If you want some changes, you'll need to change how YOU do things. Don't play his game anymore. Always remind yourself that he must take care of his own children, remind yourself of how he always acted in the past, and set your mind on providing for your kids, on being a responsibly adult. 

Treat your husband like an adult, not your child, not your patient. Adults take responsibility for their actions, even if it is unpleasant. They work to change bad habits into good ones, and do what they must. You too, are an adult. The two of you have kids. It's that simple. 

So: keep a record of the texts (save them, print them, etc.) Prepare a defense for yourself, and get that defense set up _before_ Jezebel acts. Contact legal aid.

Next, use legal avenues to insist that your husband act like an adult and assume responsibility for his kids. Regardless of how this affair turns out, these are his kids. 

Stop playing games with them. Quit reacting. Act.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Are you saving copies of these threats? Those can be used as legal evidence to obtain some form of a restraining order. You might want to look into that. Regardless, why are you taking them seriously? Have you done anything to warrant turning your children over to the State (other than trying to abandon them via suicide) - or is this all bravado, and bluff?
> 
> Bluff.
> 
> ...


PLAN B NO CONTACT anyone ???? He detest me not contacting him.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Oh Blast the 2nd bit is in back again.............


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> PLAN B NO CONTACT anyone ???? He detest me not contacting him.


Again, Plan B is the followup to Plan A. The reason it is called Plan B is because it is the step you use in case the first one does not. Same as in ANY situation where you have one plan you are working on - you keep another plan in reserve in case the first one fails - that one is called plan B. If you have another plan to use after that, it would be called Plan C...etc...

What this means is that plan "B" is not a separate step you take - it follows plan "A". And unless you put a lot of effort into Plan A, Plan B will fail. That is because all the work you do in Plan A leaves a lasting impression upon your spouse when you go into Plan B.

It is not an alternative step that you jump into randomly - and it will have the reverse effect of what you may want unless it follows Plan A. 

Ending contact is something different: if you want to do that, by all means, do so. This is not plan B, however, because you really haven't done any plan A. 

Ending contact with your husband in this case may be a real wake up call for him: or it may relieve him of some of the stress your contact puts between him and his lover. 

I do want to point out that if your goal is the recovery of your marriage, then cutting off contact should not be used as a form of vengeance or punishment. 



> Previous to this we were talking about our Son 10 an I told him that I had told Son the turth and Dad woudl not be coming home, H reaction "why didn't you say for a wee while"???? Idiot. Is he thinking he is having a little affir holiday then coming back here to live when it suits him. HA!!!


Again, if you are working toward recovering your marriage, then you may want to rethink this! If you really don't want him back - which is what this paragraph clearly states, then start divorce proceedings now, don't play games with your husband. You have the right to divorce him - no one would complain about that. But to tell your son he is NOT coming back when you mean 'not right now' is misleading to your son. On the other hand, if you truly do mean 'never' - then get busy on that! There is no reason to stall.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Tilly, have you an uncle or someone that can help you out? Alternatively try social services to help you through this trying time. Perhaps you could go into your local church and I’m sure you’ll find someone there who can help you out.

If you get to feel depressed and suicidal again the Samaritans are seriously good and they’re there to provide emotional support especially for people in your situation. They may well be able to give you details of other support for you Samaritans Home Page-->. I think you are in the UK their number is 08457 90 90 90. It’s 24 hours a day, do not be at all concerned about calling them at any time. They helped me a lot at one time and are totally non judgemental.

Forget the plan A plan B stuff. Far too complex for your situation and your emotional state.

PM me if you need any more help.

Bob


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Wow Bob you made me cry.

H has texted again asking to speak with me later.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Again, Plan B is the followup to Plan A. The reason it is called Plan B is because it is the step you use in case the first one does not. Same as in ANY situation where you have one plan you are working on - you keep another plan in reserve in case the first one fails - that one is called plan B. If you have another plan to use after that, it would be called Plan C...etc...
> 
> What this means is that plan "B" is not a separate step you take - it follows plan "A". And unless you put a lot of effort into Plan A, Plan B will fail. That is because all the work you do in Plan A leaves a lasting impression upon your spouse when you go into Plan B.
> 
> ...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I have no opprtunity for Plan A, she checks his phones, they argue if I text he not allowed contact with me at all, the longest we have spent together is 1.5 hours and even then had had to run as he was late.


Plan A is not dependent upon your spouse being physically present all the time. It is about changing your life into one that does not include the things that contributed to the environment in which an affair seemed a good choice. It means changing YOU, not your husband. 

It means changing things at home so that if he gets even the slightest glimpse of you, he sees something different. It includes not refusing contact, but also not enabling the affair (something which you do all the time.)

So you say you 'have no opportunity' to do a Plan A - what is stopping you? You even point out (often) that you are in contact with your husband, which means you have opportunity to show him a different person - one that is strong, unwilling to play his games, and yet loving. How is this 'no opportunity'?

You say that she checks his phone. So what? Why is this a problem? It is not wrong to talk to your own husband. It is wrong for him to phone HER! SO who is in the right here, who has the authority, right and privilege to communicate via phone, letter, face to face, etc? You or her? Again, WHO - you or her?

Falling for the 'she doesn't allow him to talk' charade is simply playing his games with him. He is a full grown man. He can talk to you if he wants. He is using that as an excuse so that he doesn't have to come right out and tell you he doesn't want to talk to you. 

Quit falling for this stuff! Talk to him when you want to. Or, end contact when you want to. Act as a free, moral, responsible adult. 



> I just do not know anymore


How about thinking it over and making a decision _now_, instead of still reacting to every little wind that blows. You'll do so much better in the end it you took even that tiny step! Take a stand for you family!


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Things have been quiet for a few days, I haven't been texting or phoning. I received a text from H askin "did you enjoy your date?" (I didn't have one) I texted back "are you still enjoying your affair" to which he answered "NO". I asked him if he was going to wish me happy birthday and he said he had a card (blablabla).
Yesterday I receive a text asking" where did all go wrong X"? 

I said I didn't know but it was very sad and missed him.

I woke to 2 texts one asking if "I thought this was fixible, and that I had said I would be better on my own (whch I did)" then one apologising for texting as he cannot text from there.

He texted this morning, is it fixible I replied: DO YOU WANT TO HOME AND WORK ON CHANGING FULL MARRIAGE

Me saying I was better off on my own: No I a NOT

Do I REALLY MISS him - yes

He texts: "look X my head is bursting with work and all of this will call you later"????

WTF? :scratchhead:


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Things have been quiet for a few days, I haven't been texting or phoning. I received a text from H askin "did you enjoy your date?" (I didn't have one) I texted back "are you still enjoying your affair" to which he answered "NO". I asked him if he was going to wish me happy birthday and he said he had a card (blablabla).


First, a real quick observation: when you say you 'haven't been texting or phoning' and then you reveal the content of the texts you sent, you pretty much negate the idea that you haven't been doing it. Maybe reality is 'not as much' - but you are still doing it!

Not that there is a problem with texting - but for the sake of your marriage, it might do you well to start being very much more focused on reality and being extremely clear. Not trying to be some kind of logic Nazi here; I'm trying to point to that much of the solution to your marital problems is going to consist of precise thought and extremely clear language (things that _cannot_ be misunderstood.) Until that starts, you'll still be stuck in the games.

Next: when he writes 'how was your date' you responded perfectly: "Are you enjoying your affair?" However: a much better response: one that you should practice and use EVERY TIME he responds with his answer "NO!" is this:

"The solution is to leave that affair, end all contact with the Other Woman, give me complete, transparent honesty, and commit to our marriage" 

And if he gives you any excuses _AT ALL_, simply tell him that you will _may_ keep waiting for him to fulfill those conditions - and then STOP TEXTING.

Don't accept; _refuse to accept_ any excuses. It is either this choice or the highway, no exceptions, no provisos, nothing. 

Until you make that EXTREMELY clear, all you will be doing is a form of 'tit-for-tat' run-around w, and continuing to give him permission (that he really doesn't need!) and excuses to stay in his illicit, immoral sex cave. 

There is no reason to tell him you miss him. He is already aware of that. Don't do that again. There is no reason to tell him 'you are better off on your own' if you don't believe it. Honesty is the best thing you can do for yourself.

Consider this, however: if you beleive that you must have him in your life in order to make is complete, you are not offering him a spouse that is any good for him. Until you can find a way to make a distinction between you and him - that you are distinct individuals that are not fused into a some new sort of twisted schizoid merged-group single unit, you will ALWAYS be enabling him to continue with any behavior he wants - regardless of its usefulness, helpfulness, or even moral input for your family.

So here is my suggestion for any pone call he may make tonight: write it out if you have to - and stick to this only - do NO T deviate, do NOT argue, plead, or even try to reason with him:

He calls and says he is so mixed up, that he is miserable, that he wants you but somehow is physically incapable of leaving the other woman; _WHATEVER his newest, or old, excuse, yadda yadda yadda (he will be yammering absolute nonsense): your reply is simple:

*"...Are you willing to end ALL contact with this Other Woman immediately? Are you willing to be 100% transparent with me? Are you willing to commit to this marriage, and do ANY work that is necessary - including ending the drinking and drugs - to work this out?

No? Well - CALL ME WHEN YOU ARE READY, Goodbye." *​
Hang up and go do something for yourself. Do NOT get caught up in phone tag - let him think for a day or two. 

If he then calls back:

REPEAT THE ABOVE. Sound like a danged parrot if you have to. He will get the message, and you will have removed yourself from his games. Hopefully in the time it takes him to come around (if he does) you will have had enough time to begin thinking clearly!_


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

tanelornpete said:


> first, q real quick observation: When you say you 'haven't been texting or phoning' and then you reveal the content of the texts you sent, you pretty much negate the idea that you haven't been doing it. Maybe reality is 'not as much' - but you are still doing it!
> 
> yes, i had planned a, then after reading saa for 2nd time dediced i needed to leave a nice image, so just texted to ask how work was and hoped he was feeling better.
> 
> ...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> first, a real quick observation: When you say you 'haven't been texting or phoning' and then you reveal the content of the texts you sent, you pretty much negate the idea that you haven't been doing it. Maybe reality is 'not as much' - but you are still doing it!
> 
> yes, i had planned a, then after reading saa for 2nd time dediced i needed to leave a nice image, so just texted to ask how work was and hoped he was feeling better.


Yes, leaving a nice image is necessary: but I would argue that the 'nice' you need to be must be intended as love for your husband - and I define that love with some precision: love is doing what is right for that person, even if they don't (at the time) appreciate it. If you simply make nice conversation, without including the importance of the situation, you are being a doormat, and what you talk about is easily misconstrued. If, instead, you make sure that your husband knows, whenever you talk to him, that there is a situation that is serious enough to warrant some focus on it - all the while being truly interested in him, you'll find some changes happening.

Imagine this: someone is walking backwards toward a huge cliff, talking to you all the time. Being 'nice' to them does not necessarily include discussing their opinion of the newest hit song, or how beautiful the clouds are: it may well include some small concern for their health - as in "um, hey - you are backing toward a 1000 foot fall, there." Keep in mind that what your husband is doing is destroying his real family, all while he pretends to have a different one.

If he wants that new family, he needs to get out of his old one, NOW. There is no time to 'think about it,' or to try to keep both. It just won't happen, will it?



> yes i should have done that but was so busy trying to come up with some reverse bable this was what came out.


Reverse babble is an EXCELLENT tool - but, just like having a hammer - there is more to using it than just swinging it: you also need a nail to hit. 

Keep this in mind: your goals are (I assume):

1) to break the games between the two of you
2) to end the affair
3) to build a new, stronger and healthier marriage.

You have many tools to use - to achieve these goals - but they must be used with those goals in mind. Simply using reverse babble to counter someone's argument is merely a version of 'tit-for-tat' -- "ha HA! I one-upped you! SO THERE! Nyah!!!"

You used the reverse babble with immaculate perfection:

Husband: "did you enjoy your date?"
You: "are you still enjoying your affair"

PREFECT! 

_And even better_: your husband pointed out where the nail is (so you can swing that hammer):

Husband: "NO!"

*Here is your opening*: this is where you want to point the way back home: give him the conditions I spoke of earlier. 

So just keep that in mind (you'll do great) - next time it happens, take advantage of the opening! It will create some interesting results.



> i agree, wholeheartedly and makes me wonder wheather it is worth the effort.we need to re-start our whole marriage from scratch, he has always been very "poor me poor me" and very selfish, controlling at times, condeming of others which i don't like, i will no longer stand for any of that.


You may have a long row to hoe ahead of you, but remember: a marriage consists of two people, and that is it's strength! You can always do better with two people than alone. As long as you both have the same goal in mind (a new, better, stronger marriage) - great things can happen.



> okay so i have seen he thread a bit late and have spoken with him i don't think he will call back but but is supposed to be. So he doesn't love ow, he loves me, but i scare him as i do threaten him quite a lot and am more like a other at times to him (ie when he cannot face work - i make him go) i realise this is wrong but but i just wanted him to keep his job.


Sounds like a lot of BS to me. He is making excuses. Don't fall for them. I can easily imagine that there is a lot of changing for you to do - as an 'enabler' you do an awful lot in terms of control, etc., but by the same token - he has to agree to it.

Here is what really happens in his life, however: he _will not_ take responsibility for his own actions. Instead, he waits for you to tell him what to do, he waits for her to tell him what to do - and then claims helplessness - 'they MAKE me do this!' 

That way - it is YOUR fault his life is miserable. It is HER fault his life is miserable. He's just a poor, helpless pawn in all of this (see what I mean by games?) 

So yes, you need to stop controlling him: if he doesn't get up an go to work: he gets fired. If he cheats, he loses privileges. On and on and on. There are, and must be, consequences to all our actions. The difference is that you are not the judge: you don't determine the consequences. Your job is to ALLOW them to happen. Moreover - if you do your best to protect him from them - he learns more and more to let you fix things for him. Makes his life so much easier! I mean - if you get too mad, he can always get drunk to ignore you!



> He also said he basically did this to hurt me after i threw him out last year, i don't believe this i believe he seen a 19 yar old and thought "sex, someone who will listeh to my every need".


I agree.



> Unfortunately she is nuts.
> 
> i did say "just come back home but he said he in't as easy a that ?? I realise he has her child calling him dada, she could cause us a lot of problems, like paintwork on cars etc.


Its as easy as 'I'm leaving, goodbye' - grab stuff, open door, walk out, close door, go home. That simple. THAT SIMPLE.



> She will be devastated and gutted but i told her fron the start when she decided to text me to introduce herslef as h new g/f, "why introduce a man you don't know to your kids lives"?????"


She will be devastated? Whose fault is that? And - who really cares? She'll just find some other guy. That is NONE of your concern, and it must not be ANY of his. That child will forget all about him, the sooner the better. 

And there is a VERY simple solution to any bad action on her part, but you must do it LOGICALLY and CAREFULLY:

1) Send her a message (preferably email or snail mail, but a text or phone call or in person works as well - it's just best to have a hard copy of this:​
Tell her to stay away from you and your family.​
2) The VERY first time she calls, texts, threatens, slashes a tire - whatnot - after that notice:​
FILE A LEGAL RESTRAINING ORDER!​
Since you kept a copy of the text, email, snail mail, etc., requesting that she stay away, you have legal documentation that can be used in court to JAIL her if she persists. 

That will end it quickly enough.

There are more steps to take which will ensure that she stay away, but that comes later - WHEN YOUR HUSBAND comes back home.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Yes, leaving a nice image is necessary: but I would argue that the 'nice' you need to be must be intended as love for your husband - and I define that love with some precision: love is doing what is right for that person, even if they don't (at the time) appreciate it. If you simply make nice conversation, without including the importance of the situation, you are being a doormat, and what you talk about is easily misconstrued. If, instead, you make sure that your husband knows, whenever you talk to him, that there is a situation that is serious enough to warrant some focus on it - all the while being truly interested in him, you'll find some changes happening.
> 
> Imagine this: someone is walking backwards toward a huge cliff, talking to you all the time. Being 'nice' to them does not necessarily include discussing their opinion of the newest hit song, or how beautiful the clouds are: it may well include some small concern for their health - as in "um, hey - you are backing toward a 1000 foot fall, there." Keep in mind that what your husband is doing is destroying his real family, all while he pretends to have a different one.
> 
> ...


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Okay now I am scared.

H called this morning for a chat, it would seem GF as been having some hang up calls..........I have them almost every days (withheld number) I no longer answer them.

Anyway, we chatted for a bit and then he was called by his Manager.

Whilst he was chatting I wrote out blow in a text "are you willing to end all contact with g/f immediately? Are you willing to be 100% transparent with me? Are you willing to commit to this marriage, and do any work that is necessary - including ending the drinking and drugs - to work this out? If not please not not call or text me again unless it is regarding the children" I a also looking for a new house just now so advise him I would let him know if/when we moved.

Whilst I was sending it he phoned back confused almost.....asked if/how it could work, spoke about my family detesting him I explained everyon detests what you have done X" do you not get that.????


So far I have ha a text saying "so if I wanted to where do we start"??

I advised him have samples letter he could leave for g/f to explain his actions and hve heard nothing since..............
we shall see. He will not leave her tonight, he has once last chance at this job and he wouldn't be able to go if he had to do this tonight, I know him too well. We shall see what happens. 

The thing is, now I am okay, okay without or with. Some days are bad but EVERYONE has bad days. I need to make an effort to go see my ailing nan not obsess about this every day.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

First off, what scares you?

You are doing well, and he is stating that he is willing to work! This is all good news. Just keep in mind that it is highly likely that he is thinking this will all be temporary - he always acts on that assumption, so keep in mind you'll have to get into a habit of not playing games.

Speaking of the games: you fell for it again! This is only natural - its a hard habit to break and you are entitled to a mistake or two as you learn some new things! Note:



> He will not leave her tonight, he has once last chance at this job and he wouldn't be able to go if he had to do this tonight, I know him too well. We shall see what happens.


You are excusing him staying with another woman for another night because of "x," "y," and "z". The job is more important than faithfulness, his old habits are more important than faithfulness, etc., etc., etc. 

The reality is that his cowardice is no reason why he should not simply come home, sleep on the couch for the night, and get up and head off to work. 

The reality is that his cowardice is no reason why he should not come home, and work on this with you - and be prepared to look for another job! 

The reality is that he has 24 hours in a day, just as you, and that he knows how much sleep he needs, how much time it takes to get to work, etc.

When you say "I know him" what you are doing is allowing him to continue doing things the way he always has, because he's always done it that way! He's a grown man. He can deal with a little turmoil. It's good for him!

Until he sees real consequences for his actions, and a _certain someone_ quits giving him little 'outs' and excuses for why he should be allowed to keep up with horrible behavior - he will just keep on doing as much as he can...'because you know him!"


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> First off, what scares you?
> 
> I am unsure of my feelings towards him right now, his wage was cut by ££££ this week due my CSA payments, which I have not received but must be somewhere
> 
> ...


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Tilly , Tilly, Tilly

A few guidelines for you to follow:-

Assume you are heading for a divorce. 

Stop making excuses for your husband: --- he is a big boy, he chose to cheat, he chose to lie, he chose to have an affair. He is now reaps the consequences. He will cry, whimper, whine, threaten you and try manipulating you. All of this does not matter. He has to grow up and assume his responsibilities. 

Stop thinking of him and think first of yourself and your children 

Let the CSA sort him out, they have dealt with his kind before. 

Stop responding to him, every time you do this you are losing ground, you are practicing a form of begging. 

No texting him, no phoning him, no talking to him. 


Buy a notebook; write the requirements for him to return to the marriage. Nominate an intermediary, if you can’t find an intermediary tell him once via email or text where you will leave the book. He communicates via the book only or via a lawyer that he pays for. 

Get your life in order; tell yourself daily that you are going to survive without him. 

You do not need him in your life, you may want him but you do not need him. 

Start proving this to yourself. Build your self esteem, exercise, eat healthy foods, you will be amazed how well you will do once you have stopped flitting back and forth and your head clears.

Stop being fearful, you are allowing the unknown to scare you, you are not the first to go through this, the advice given is solid and works. 

Show people the new you and believe in yourself. Look them in the eye and know you are the better person and have the courage to take your family forward.

In simple terms Tilly, stop gulping like a goldfish and start acting for yourself, get a bit of self respect and use this to protect your family


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> He cannot he is weak,. he cries and things and he is phoning again.........


No Tilly!!!!! 

Earlier in your thread, I pointed out the reason I wanted you to use the word "WON'T" whenever you are tempted to use the word "CAN'T".

Your husband 'cannot' survive on a diet of rocks. He 'cannot' fly. He 'cannot' turn invisible. 

He "WON'T" do the things you need. He "WON'T" come home. 

*"Won't", Tilly, not "CANNOT".* Until you begin to insert that word DELIBERATELY you will still be playing these games, excusing horribly behavior, and generally wrecking yours, your kid's and your husband's lives by making sure, with all of your might, that bad behavior continues to harm you. KNOCK IT OFF!

So he cries and things. So what? How does that change what he NEEDS to do? It doesn't! Next time he cries, let him know that he is free to whimper and moan all he wants, but in the meantime do "x," "y," and "z". 

Ask yourself: does he cry in front of his boss whenever he gets in trouble? Does his BOSS put up with bad behavior because 'he might cry'? If not - why does he do it to you? BECAUSE IT GETS YOU TO ALLOW HIM TO DO WHAT HE WANTS!


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> No Tilly!!!!!
> 
> Earlier in your thread, I pointed out the reason I wanted you to use the word "WON'T" whenever you are tempted to use the word "CAN'T".
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

tilly said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes you are both right its all mind games, why does he keep saying he doesn't love her, he does. I mentioned before she uses drugs and hasa been in jail. Now CSA are involved H suddenly wants 'shared access'. I have an appointment on Wednesday, she will push for Divorce. Should I ? My head is so scrambled with his late night texts and he came by on Friday I almost threw him out as he is so smug, he is playing games, pretending he has feelings for me ?? I was out with my brothers friend looking at a car, he saw us and the abuse I got (text) was unbelievable.... My head hurts with it, one minute I hate him next I cry, you are right I have no self respect left tbh. No way will he have shared access, all because he wants a measly twenty pound extra each week, my boys WILL NOT be in his environment. I copied plan B letter added a few personal bits they text me to tell me how hiliarious they find me.  I will not speak to him again, he can try anyway he likes but That's it, he can go [email protected]@k for all I care (sometimes).I hate him and her, threatening me WHAT? If I did not have children I would be in jail. I repeat I will never speak to him again at least until end DECEMBER. Wow that's a rant. So should I file for divorce ? It is only on hold just now. How do I know when to speak to him again? Oh gosh at Christmas too ???? I hate my life atm and my PC is broken so I cannot read good things although I remembered I can use this phone thing. Does any of that make sense 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Yes you are both right its all mind games, why does he keep saying he doesn't love her, he does.


Actually, I think the only person he loves is himself. Love is the action of doing what is best for a person: his thinking is twisted but relatively normal for humanity - he thinks that what he is doing is best for HIM (not her, not you.)

Part of the reality that he needs to face is that this cannot work for him: he cannot keep two women chasing after him, have his kids, do drugs, drink and skip work whenever he feels like it. All of that will eventually fall apart. 

Question: how long do you intend to be a part of it?



> I mentioned before she uses drugs and hasa been in jail. Now CSA are involved H suddenly wants 'shared access'.


Does the CSA know about the drug use in that household? If not, it would be in the best interest of your children to make sure this information is part of any agreement made. (Note: although it may not seem like it, it would also be good for your husband if the State knew of his illegal activities. Not as a means of punishment, but as a means of calling his to taking responsibility for actions that endanger his children.)



> I have an appointment on Wednesday, she will push for Divorce. Should I ?


That is a decision you have to come to on your own: no one should tell you what to do. 



> My head is so scrambled with his late night texts and he came by on Friday I almost threw him out as he is so smug, he is playing games, pretending he has feelings for me ?


My guess is that he DOES have feelings for you. He also has feelings for Jezebel. That isn't the issue: the issue is, 'to whom are you married?' and 'to whom should feelings rightfully be intended?' 

As for the games: your first step is to identify the game, second step is to _refuse_ to play it, and the third step is to make sure he knows you have caught on and will no longer participate.



> I will not speak to him again, he can try anyway he likes


The question is: for how long is this 'not again'? This is also a game: you won't talk for a while, he gets hurt, cries, you give in, he hurts you, you withhold conversation, he gets hurt, cries, you give in...and on and on...

He is the kid's father - you will need some means of communication: if you've studied Plan B at all, you'll understand the various means you can use to pass information without breaking your word. 



> How do I know when to speak to him again?


Here is a VERY good way of knowing when to talk to him again: I hope you can access this web page somehow:

Know when to resume communication...


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Actually, I think the only person he loves is himself. Love is the action of doing what is best for a person: his thinking is twisted but relatively normal for humanity - he thinks that what he is doing is best for HIM (not her, not you.)
> 
> Part of the reality that he needs to face is that this cannot work for him: he cannot keep two women chasing after him, have his kids, do drugs, drink and skip work whenever he feels like it. All of that will eventually fall apart.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

tilly said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know if I can forgive this, I have counselling on Wed, I am visiting my lawyer regarding restricted visits for children which do not include me. I may use the notebook method, I really have to see what advice I am given on Wednesdsay. H called today. I ignored it. Day 1 - no contact thank you for the link I should hopefully be able to access it. Thanks again. This place is my lifeline atm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Tilly to help yourself start a journal, buy a notebook for yourself, write down the happenings of the day including the things you say and do. In the journal record the steps you are to take daily, weekly and monthly, including the way you must react. 

There is a lot of advice coming your way and unless you are online and know where to look you are missing a good number of steps , 

Do this check though your thread for items you may have not done..

Hold it together Tilly, ignore you husband you are in Plan B so don't get wound up or allow him to upset you and Tilly keep a clear head at all times don't respond to him..texts etc.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Eli-Zor said:


> Tilly to help yourself start a journal, buy a notebook for yourself, write down the happenings of the day including the things you say and do. In the journal record the steps you are to take daily, weekly and monthly, including the way you must react.
> 
> There is a lot of advice coming your way and unless you are online and know where to look you are missing a good number of steps ,
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Lol you will get better with your mobile


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

tilly said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you. You must be reading my mind as I was just re-reading your post. I will start a journal tomorrow, I cried today, just such a mess I can cope though, a little cry never harmed anyone even if I forgot the 'new me' doesn't usually wear mascara. The link makes almost TOO MUCH sense if possible. I guess I just wanted Christmas to be nice but it would be false unless H can have a personality change in 4 weeks. Oh had my eyebrows waxed and hair cut. I am eating again too which is good a 6/7 is not nice on tall semi middle aged people. Thank you kind sensible people once again, I have all the equipment to get online but spent LOTS of time today and I gave up, kept me occupied though, I will try again tomorrow I know it will be. Something simple. Possibly anyway .....- do go on and on. I may take up tai boxing now I am eating again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Mobile is PITA, I am terrified to try a paragraph!  _Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

He will NEVER get shared access. He abused me last year .... And most of this but left behind his 'I'm sorry' letter detailing all his faults use of illegal substances! My 10 year old said he wouldn't like to stay over at H house. 


Oh paragraphs.... He only started showing an interest (still no visit/calls) in them when he found out he had to pay less to CSA if he was granted shared access, he asked I would allow this and I said a very very firm NO. Supervised visits - if he were to turn up!tomorrow I turn off my phone (or should I just keep ignoring him?) And I am free.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

I had to have contact in a roundabout way. I need to know if he wants shared access by 11.00am tomorrow. He texted asking if he could pls call... I asked if it was re: boys, he said yeas, he called I put him straight on my 10 year old who is off sick just now.

I didn't speak to him at all but had a small text argument with him saying "he just wants to see his boys but if I bla bla bla bla he will Bla bla bla I wold him to go for it "

I just left it at I do not wish to see you again, speak with you or it at all possible see you again (this includes texts). 

So much for a Plan B Letter what an idiot what part of it did he not understand???? What an idiot I am for even answering him today as now I don't feel as good as I did. Never mind. 

Tomorrow I have Lawyer at 11.00 then councelling at 11.45am. 

So I have stuffed plan B but I did need to know what his intention were for the boys, but I give up, as I said to him he wants access, I know of no-one who would even take the boys to hand them over as everyone detests him for what he is doing, I don't want to see him so perhaps a lawyer can work it out. 

I do not wish to stop him seeing his children but OW is a know drug user has been in jail and has only just had her children back after them being in care (what a catch he mother must be so proud).

He can take them out (alone) but he does not want that.

So all in all not a good day but I fixed the PC. Now I really need to start finding things to do during the day. I am still on diazepam but cannot just stop these I need weaned off them or I could find a little job. That's the plan anyway, off to write my first entry in my journal.


Oh the threats begin again, why would I want to be the last one laughing? There is nothing funny about this. I need a new Sim card.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Good Solicitors appointment, everything in place so that is a weight off my mind.

Texts so far today from H.

7.00am - I am very depressed

8.00am - I was looking at some of our letters last night, how did we get into this mess?

8.35am - Don't think you will ever realise how much you hurt me last year, I didn't want ANY of this, EVER I am sadder than you will ever know.

9.49am: I know you have lawyer today but what for ? I am not pushing for shared access I miss them but will deal with that but if you have to see your lawyer then you see them.

10.09am - If you want my name off the Tenancy I will write to the X tonight, restricted access is okay. Hope your appointment goes well. 

I am now staying at XYZ place where our Council place Homeless people ? (could be affair babble could be true - XYZ place was discussed when he asked is anything was "fixable")

I haven't replied. I have put restricted access in place along with him taken off Tenancy but at the moment as the boys are with me it's my decision who has them and when and he would have to go to a lawyer for access, everything is in place should this happen.

I am continuing as normal whatever that is.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Tilly

Great , this is the type of record you keep in your journal, you can record your own feelings as well, in the future you may look back and see some learnings, the journal allows you to vent to yourself.

Recording the time of the calls/texts and the content enables you to gauge your husbands state. If he does talk to you note his mood as well i.e aggressive, submissive etc. 

Your in plan B, stay in control, he is probing for you to respond. If at a point in time your husband asks to come back to the marriage you must be prepared. It will be your decision, I suggest you create a list of requirements. If you require some input we can help , doing this soon helps you clear your mind as well as creates a set of boundaries that you will not allow to be breached. It is your list of principles and values.

Stay on track , the tables are turning, he is in happy land or so he thinks. Tell him zip, he is no longer privy to your thoughts or plans.

You are on track, stay strong


:yay::yay::yay::yay:


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Eli-Zor said:


> Tilly
> 
> Great , this is the type of record you keep in your journal, you can record your own feelings as well, in the future you may look back and see some learnings, the journal allows you to vent to yourself.
> 
> ...


I know!! Yay. Strange but it is good to be in control.

I am already/have already (but add to) a set of boundaries, if it is ever needed.

Another text at 4.57: I really want to come home but have F*&cked up things too much. Sorry x

Text @ 5.00pm: So now you know i am staying in a B&B now but on priority for housing as two boys but could take months. Just let me know I can see them x

Hmmmm. This is where the decisions lie with me. My solicitor advised that I could let him have access if I felt it was okay. I still do not trust/believe a word he is saying at the moment so I think I will stay on Plan B and not answer him visiting the children. 

I called the XYZ place today and they had (SURPRISE SURPRISE) Mr heard of a Mr H!  

Why does that not surprise me so unless he left work this morning, rushed back home to G/F, packed ALL his clothes, had it out with her, visited the council, filled in various forms when he is allowed no time off from work I doubt very that this has happened. :rofl:

So transparent hence me not answering about the children, he will see them but not when he is continuing to lie/babble....... they are actually okay to be honest, I am getting to grips with this sole parenting thing, trying to get then to stop fighting well.....we can only keep trying. 

Off to update the journal.

I forgot to ad in his text saying "I want to come back but cannot I was very sorely tempted to text him regarding the CANNOT word!!!! I refrained but laughed.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Some important things to keep in mind:

First - and of primary importance: it is wrong to refuse to allow the kids to see their dad. By using 'Plan B' to keep them from their father, you are wading deeply into legal trouble which could backfire horribly (possibly even resulting in your husband being granted custody). It is against the law, morally and legally, to withhold children from a parent.

That is NOT the same thing as fighting for custody of the kids in a divorce hearing. In that case, the issue (again) is not CAN a parent see the children, but can a parent keep them in the home and provide for them that way. 

Right now your husband may go along with you, out of ignorance - but if he were to find out that there are legal issues involved here, which could end up with him keeping the kids, and you paying support - I'll bet he'd JUMP at that chance. 

So be VERY careful not to break the law! You can't dictate when your husband sees his kids without a court order - hence "...he will see them but not when he is continuing to lie/babble..." is a recipe for disaster!

Second (and of less importance): when he DOES send you texts such as...



> ...I really want to come home but have F*&cked up things too much. Sorry x...


This is an opportunity for you to reiterate the conditions for his return home:

1) "No Contact" letter (and No Contact)

2) Absolute transparency

3) Commitment to work on the marriage.​
When you get a text like the one above, send a quick reply - make the same one every time:

You will be welcome home when you...etc., etc. 

_Same as with the phone call thing I gave you earlier. _ 

Just send the notification. If he replies with 'I'd be willing to do that..." etc., then you have a basis to start communication. If not, ignore his reply and get on with your business.

Remember to read through this page.

Also, here's a good thread to view...


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Some important things to keep in mind:
> 
> First - and of primary importance: it is wrong to refuse to allow the kids to see their dad. By using 'Plan B' to keep them from their father, you are wading deeply into legal trouble which could backfire horribly (possibly even resulting in your husband being granted custody). It is against the law, morally and legally, to withhold children from a parent.
> 
> ...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> My solicitor thinks different at the moment due to previous dealings with the Social Work department - if I feel they are not safe I will not allow them to be with him until I know he telling the truth and is not at a heroin addicts house, with needles and burny items etc. never never never


All I am saying is do NOT act like the law _until_ you have the signed stamped paperwork. 

I am just warning you that this is a situation that can turn on you in an instant. The State rarely considers the opinions of an angry spouse to be a valid ground for withholding parental contact. If there is danger to the children, then it needs to be enforced legally (that is, the State must enforce it, not you.) Your attorney may be of the opinion that if things are as you say, the kids should not be around the other parent, but that is merely opinion and cannot stand in court without legal action. There isn't any guarantee that a State worker won't simply take the opposite side in a case like yours. What I am saying is that if this were to go to court based upon one parent refusing to honor the right of another parent to their children, the testimony of your Social worker would be the fact that you did not allow your kids to see their father, even though there was _as of yet_ no legal reason for this.

If you truly want to keep your kids safe, use legal means, not angry reaction or opinion to do so. Any other means will most likely end up in something you absolutely do not want. The State will not take your side without proof - and without legal means, the State will simply act in it's best interest - which very well could be to take the kids away from BOTH parents. In their interest, neither parent might be fit: one is causing parental alienation, the other is a drug user.

All I am saying is do NOT act like the law _until_ you have the signed stamped paperwork. 

So instead - take them to McDonald's, let him see them there while you sit off to the side somewhere. That way he sees them - and you are not guilty of causing parental alienation, and he cannot take them without kidnapping charges. Solves all problems at once. The key is to think these things through, rather than acting on how you feel.



> If we were working with someone who was thinking/acting rationally and even believed in No contact letters etc this would be a good reply but not for just now, I do not know what he is thinking but to show OW the Plan B letter and have her laugh over every detail via text to me does not make me think of someone of sound mind.


NO! That is EXACTLY the reply you must give - if you want your marriage to recover. There isn't another one, except 'you are not coming back, I am divorcing you'. In that instance, get busy and do the danged divorce and quit playing games!

The reply I suggest is _exactly_ the right one because if your husband gets to the point of accepting it, he will have to also PERFORM the actions necessary. I am not suggesting that he can come home is he SAYS he will do those things. I am saying he can come home IF he does those things. And that is the message to pass on to him:

You are welcome home "IF" you agree to these three (non-negotiable) conditions., etc., etc., etc.,

I am really curious as to why you sent your husband a Plan B letter at all. The fact that they laughed at it is reasonable - think about it! You told him you wouldn't contact him - and then contacted him to see what he though of the idea. In their minds, it's just you making new, pointless threats. 

If you had actually done a plan B, _YOU WOULD HAVE NO IDEA IF THEY'D LAUGHED ABOUT IT OR NOT!_ There must be contact in order to find that out!


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> All I am saying is do NOT act like the law _until_ you have the signed stamped paperwork.
> 
> I am just warning you that this is a situation that can turn on you in an instant. The State rarely considers the opinions of an angry spouse to be a valid ground for withholding parental contact. If there is danger to the children, then it needs to be enforced legally (that is, the State must enforce it, not you.) Your attorney may be of the opinion that if things are as you say, the kids should not be around the other parent, but that is merely opinion and cannot stand in court without legal action. There isn't any guarantee that a State worker won't simply take the opposite side in a case like yours. What I am saying is that if this were to go to court based upon one parent refusing to honor the right of another parent to their children, the testimony of your Social worker would be the fact that you did not allow your kids to see their father, even though there was _as of yet_ no legal reason for this.
> 
> ...


To be honest I didn't expect to Plan B the letter was there, he was here and I gave him it as he was hurting me, now I shall stick to it with as I have no idea what else to do and it seems to be helping me. 

Thank you again, on reading your links I have a long time to go until Plan B is anywhere near working, I don't want it to work for him, I NEED to protect myself, I have never ever known of someone in an affair with a screeching OW so involved.

This isn't going to be a happy ending thread, I know that, I need to heal and Plan B is for me to do so, some people can take 6 months on Plan A and 2 years on Plan B I am shortening my length of time for myself which is selfish but at least I can eat and sleep and function better.

I get what you mean about the 3 rules but that would have been contact and right now he still living with OW and lying he is elsewhere but I understand it but would be horrified if he acted on it to be honest - but he wouldn't as he is lying so it makes sense, noted


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Tilly 

You are where you are, all the steps are a learning. 

You are in Plan B so stick to it, don't waver and be strong.

Be nice but professional to your husband. You children, friends and family will see you as the better person.

Stay on course


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Tilly 

A quick reminder, 

Plan B means you have to nominate an intermediary and I suggest you use a notebook to communicate with your husband, no talking or texting. 

Communication is limited to the children, the finances and in the notebook is written a list of minimum requirements for him to complete and evidence to return to the marriage. 

Nominate a strong intermediary who is pro-marriage and will not be manipulated by anyone. :FIREdevil:

Plan B says you go dark, pitch black, *so do not respond to his text messages.*

Look after yourself and your children


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> This isn't going to be a happy ending thread, I know that, I need to heal and Plan B is for me to do so, some people can take 6 months on Plan A and 2 years on Plan B I am shortening my length of time for myself which is selfish but at least I can eat and sleep and function better.


May I point out that there really is no reason for you to be doing a Plan B at all. I've stated this before, but maybe I didn't state it clearly enough.

You don't plan on continuing this marriage. Why use a step that is intended to be a last attempt at doing exactly what you don't want? Kind of like going to the bank to get a loan for a house you aren't going to buy!

Just get the divorce over now. Why do all this other stuff? 



> I get what you mean about the 3 rules but that would have been contact and right now he still living with OW and lying he is elsewhere but I understand it but would be horrified if he acted on it to be honest - but he wouldn't as he is lying so it makes sense, noted


Those 'three rules' are the response that a person who wants to recover their marriage would use if their disloyal spouse ignored the request to leave them alone and contacted them. They are not a form of contact unless you initiated the conversation and sent them to your spouse arbitrarily. 

But that is not what happened. Your husband sent you some sort of text regarding the possibility of continuing a relationship with you. He contacted you. If you were interested in the marriage, you would then send back the notification that if your cheating spouse wanted to come back, they would have to fulfill three specific, non-negotiable conditions - _to be allowed back_. 

That is the ONLY text to which I would advise you send a reply - _if you had the intent of recovering your marriage_. Any other text - about the kids, how much he loves you, some vent, _anything_ else would mean you simply delete the message and move on. NO contact, no reply. But making sure the conditions necessary for a return should be repeated as often as an attempt to come back is made.

However, as I wrote above - why even play THAT game? You want a divorce, you do not want to continue the marriage - you even write that it would be horrifying if your husband DID change and DID commit to and undergo the non-negotiable three conditions - you wrote: 



> I understand it but would be horrified if he acted on it to be honest...


I appreciate the honesty, but to stay h9onest, simply do the divorce. There is NO reason to go through the charade of a Plan B (_especially since you deliberately refused to do a Plan A_) since your goal is to remove this man from your life! In fact, what you are going through RIGHT NOW is exactly why it is necessary to do a Plan A - before you jump to Plan B (it's called Plan 'B' for a _reason_! Unless you do a Plan A, Plan B fails. It is useless. 

What you need instead is to END the marriage. Don't drag it on pointlessly. File now.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

I get what you say but I am hurting, I don't know if there will be happy ending is my way of saying "I am doomed" I am confused, one minute I love him, next I detest him for all of this and according to my book I AM NORMAL to feel this. Jon sure didn't feel love for Sue when he moved back, it needs work, I need to keep reading and printing and reading more.

After my post yesterday (okay shout at me now: I texted Re: I want to come back bu hae F*&cked up too bad, 1. No contact, 2. Total transparency. 3. Willingness to work on marriage now and always.

Text: from him

11.56pm. I WANT to COME home but I NEED YOU to reassure me it can be worked on.

I texted him back with the 1. Contact 2. Transparency. 3. Willingness to work on marraige with the added, I NEED YOU TO RE-ASSURE ME!!!

I appreciate your advice but EVERY marriage is different and you do not know what lead to the affair, I did over-react and hurt him very badly, then there was the depression, no talking to him as I was so depressed, you do not know me or him, I DO!! I can be horrid, I am working on this, those pills I was prescribed are dangerous I have to say, all for a sleep??

I do not believe every affair can have a simple plan A Plan B especially with children involved and not a lot of family/friends to be negotiators, I am just living/attempting to deal with it as best I can, not great so far but that's me all over.

I am still taking my diazepam but am also cutting these out atm as I want to have no toxins in my body so that may explain my erratic behavior at times.

With respect, if I had wanted a divorce I would have filed on Wednesday I do not need you to tell me when to file.......well actually that may not be true, I may well be sitting here in 2 months with you doing just that  time will tell. Thank you. Once Again.

I messed up Plan A/B.

So what to do now ? Nothing.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Actually, Tilly - I am not advising you to file for divorce - _per se_. That is your decision, not mine, nor anyone else's. But the key word there is _DECISION_. 

I've been stressing this the entire time: as long as you bounce from one emotion to the next, you'll be unable to proceed in either direction - in fact, you'll just be feeling confused and upset. 

Instead, my advice is to stop, and think and make a decision: are you planning on divorcing your husband or are you planning on trying to recover your marriage. When you pick one avenue or the other, you will free yourself up from being trapped by whatever emotion sways you from moment to moment (or second to second). Even if you change your mind later, any steps you take with a definite goal in mind will be hugely successful in bringing about personal growth for you. It will free you from the 'head-games' that you and your husband play with one another.



> I appreciate your advice but EVERY marriage is different and you do not know what lead to the affair, I did over-react and hurt him very badly, then there was the depression, no talking to him as I was so depressed, you do not know me or him, I DO!! I can be horrid, I am working on this, those pills I was prescribed are dangerous I have to say, all for a sleep??


Yes, every marriage is 'different' in some sense (for example, names differ, etc.) - but commitment is the same, all the time. And no, I am not fully apprised of the specific things that either of you may have done that contributed to the affair. However, _it isn't the specifics that are the issue _- its the fact that there were issues (regardless of what they are) that brought about the troubles - and the solution is the same - _regardless of the marriage_ - get rid of the specific issues, and replace them with positive things. In that sense, it hardly matters at all what the _specifics are, because it isn't a question of choosing which ones to end - it is a question of ending them all, period. 




I do not believe every affair can have a simple plan A Plan B especially with children involved and not a lot of family/friends to be negotiators, I am just living/attempting to deal with it as best I can, not great so far but that's me all over.

Click to expand...

Affairs do not have Plan A or Plan B, (well, not in the sense that we use the terms to combat the affairs). Instead, the Plans are for the MARRIAGE. They are steps that the LOYAL spouse takes in order to begin to combat an affair. And I have yet to see an single case where these plans are not effective - not a single case. I know people want to have 'special' cases, make all kinds of excuses, and have exceptions, but that isn't reality. 

Reality is that a Plan A is that part of your life while you are dealing with an affair where you spend as much time as you can learning how YOU participated in the breakdown of your marriage and doing all you can to end any possible problems you may bring into the relationship, all the while learning ways to show love to your spouse. A Plan A (at least, as we use it in our 'program') is also where you learn how to end enabling your spouse to cheat by establishing boundaries, etc., and abiding by them.

This works for EVERY situation (regardless of children, family, friends, neighbors, etc.). And no Plan A is 'simple'! It is a difficult step that requires diligence, a willingness to examine yourself, and a willingness to learn. 

The same goes for a Plan B (either from Marriage Builders, Affaircare, or any other pro-marriage site.) It isn't simple, but it is effective.

This is not to say that a Plan A or a Plan B will result in a successful recovery in every situation. What it DOES mean is that these steps are designed to create personal growth for YOU - and it is quite likely that your wandering spouse may well notice this and desire to return. 

Regarding this sentence:




"... I am just living/attempting to deal with it as best I can, not great so far but that's me all over..."

Click to expand...

No one is perfect - that is not an issue. We all make mistakes, etc. On the other hand, this is not a free ticket to do badly. It does not free us from being responsible for our actions. 

The issue I have been trying to point out is that the WAY you 'attempt to deal' with this issue is the focal point of how successful you will be - especially a if you seek personal improvement. If you keep doing the same thing over and over, you will keep getting the same results. Practically put: if you keep flying from one emotion to another and then acting on how you feel 'at the moment' your life will not improve - even if you remarry. This is not to say 'ignore your emotions'! You can't! What I AM saying is to act REGARDLESS OF YOUR EMOTIONS - and that means having a specific plan of action already set up - written down if necessary; charted, and determined. 

By changing how you do things - IN THAT REGARD ALONE! will result in some amazing changes for your life.

One last practical application:




Text: from him

11.56pm. I WANT to COME home but I NEED YOU to reassure me it can be worked on.

I texted him back with the 1. Contact 2. Transparency. 3. Willingness to work on marraige with the added, I NEED YOU TO RE-ASSURE ME!!!

Click to expand...

Here is a place that I know will take constant reminding for some time to come - it's a VERY hard habit to break. This is still playing head games with him, and it still feeds his twisted sense of needs. It keeps you hooked to his addictions and keeps you dancing with him.

Analyze his text: he says he wants to come home....but....(and then he throws in a condition) - 'he needs you to reassure him it can be worked on.' 

You write back the three conditions, and then use a 180 on him that repeats what he said. The 180 was excellent (I love it!) - but used this way it will further the troubles you face. 

The reason I say that is that he is trying to get you to begin compromising your conditions to make it easier for him to come home. He hopes you'll feel sorry for how 'scared' he is so that you'll be open to letting things slide in the future. 

Your reply is a form of a one-up. In essence, it is an emotive that will cause him irritation or anger, and remove impetus to respond favorable.

The thing is - what BOTH of you said is true! BOTH of you need 'reassurance' that things can be worked on. So the words are irrelevant - it's already a given. But here's the kicker: your husband is a MASTER of avoiding responsibility (in a way, both of you are pro's at it.) - It isn't a question of if it can be worked out: THAT IS IMPLIED IN THE THIRD CONDITION. Of COURSE it *can* be worked out. Will it? Who knows? In order to find that out - you need to do the work necessary!

Your husband is not in the place to make conditions upon how much work he is willing to do. He must meet those three conditions in order to return, end of story. And the thing is - so do you

So next time: use the simple reply: 

"...You are welcome back home based upon three non-negotiable conditions: 1) You end all contact with the Other Woman, completely and forever. 2) You offer me transparent honesty. 3) You commit to doing the work that is necessary to building a healthy marriage with me..."

NO OTHER WORDS, no explanations, nothing else. When he is ready to assume responsibility for his part of the marriage, you will be free to let him know you are in it too. But not until HE takes that first step. 




I messed up Plan A/B.

So what to do now ?

Click to expand...

Why not step back for a day, take stock of where you want to go, where you want to be, and then let's start from THERE. 

KEY: Stop reacting to anything. Save that for those times when you need to jump up to stop the kids from throwing the toaster into the bathtub, etc...

ACT instead. You will do fine._


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

I am in bits tonight.


I now know *why* the text was sent on Wednesday, she is pregnant, so he FU*(ED up big time, he swear on my boys life she is pregnant and he is happy, so why text last night what he did???? 

Deep Plan B.

Very very said, upset, gutted and torn.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

I have to type on here I cannot do my journal as my son CUT the lead to the mouse.

So I have to use this 14 yr old laptop.

I have had/made no contact.

h phoned yesterday< I was in 10inches of snow digging car out so did not answer, my son got to it. OH I was so annoyed. He spoke AGAIn about taking children out (to him), I took the phone after the conversation, he asked what was happening with laywers, again, I said they are my children, you can take boys out, I will have them ready for a walk with you if you make a time and date.

He said he was unhappy. Then changed to talking about his B&B, I said there was NO B&B as I had phoned.......stuttered a bit and said he had been to council, no mention of his new baby - non baby ?????

Back to NOONE answering the phone as I dropped it and lost ALL sound :lol::lol:


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Still snowed in here.

I want my marriage to work. I do not know if this is possible but it is what I want.

I am in no Plan B at the moment, I don't know what I am doing. 

H called yesterday, we chatted briefly about the weather as you do..... he then said he needed to speak to me but face to face, not on the telephone, I agreed, but we are snowed in for the next 2-4 days, possibly even longer possibly.

H called again today, I did not answer it as I was busy, he left a message asking for the boys to call him, I texted him to let him know they were at XYZ. 

H called again, asked if I was busy/can talk (always asks this) I said "yeah of course we can talk", he spoke about Christmas and he would like to come down to see boys opening presents, not sure about that as yet as my son thinks we are all staying at my parents this year. 

I will have to think about this.

He then went on to say he missed them and I said I could imagine, he said he was getting peed of with being stuck in all the time - yup me too. More snow talk then he said "I miss you all", he then went back onto the subject of the medication I was on and how it changed me and how I wouldn't listen, I agreed, I should have listened, he was right.

He then went onto say how much he detested living where we are (I do to and am seeking other housing but this will take time).

He then mentioned how our marriage wasn't right, I interrupted and he said "there you go again, getting all......" I said NO!!! I have been reading and reading and reading and reading some more and we could save our marriage but we would both have to work at it and it would take a lot of hard work.

I mentioned the 15/20 hours per week spent together, time alone, respect for each other a whole new marriage which would take a lot of work but if that sounded like too much hard work, I could understand that, he said no it's not that and went onto something else.

We had to end the conversation as he was interrupted by OW.

The main subject of the conversation was he is missing us but he is "scared" after how I was on the tablets.

I don't know what to do now. If anything. 

He is definitely confused over me/her. Do I not let him speak with me as I do ? Do I keep reassuring him even though I have done so a trillion times now, I do feel he is using this as an excuse not to leave OW, it's almost like crunch time but he will not leave her just now. 

I know my thread is a mess but it resembles my head at the moment, many apologies. 

Any advice from anyone would be welcomed.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Oh a text:

HIM: why? why ? why ? why ? why?why ? x 20

I wish it was as easy as you make out, how do I know you won't hurt me again.

ME:You have to trust me Its not easy but will be worth it, I miss you, I am not the person on the pills, I am the person you married who still wants to stay married and I would never hurt you again. I love you.


? That made me cry.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

There are three conditions (non-negotiable) which he needs to fulfill in order to come back home. 

The third condition is that you both commit to doing the work necessary to creating a healthy marriage. 

Please take note as to what is happening in your last few posts: your husband is not taking responsibility for HIS actions. He is telling you ALL that you've done to him, how 'scared' he is, etc., etc. He is also playing with your emotions (i.e., texting 'why' 20x in a row.). That may be 'acceptable' for a 14 year old girl, but not for a grown man who is taking responsibility for his actions. _He knows 'why'_!

Why not demand he chose, VERY SOON, you or her. Why are you willing to be his 2nd choice? 

So...



> The main subject of the conversation was he is missing us but he is "scared" after how I was on the tablets.
> 
> I don't know what to do now. If anything.


How often does he drink? Do drugs? Has he taken responsibility for this? How long has he been clean & sober? Has he replaced the habit of self-medicating himself with a better habit? 

I wish you'd look more into the 'dependent/co-dependent' idea. There's a lot of useful information there. Unless you are the MAIN culprit here, it is your HUSBAND that has an addiction to intoxication that he needs to face. Yes, he will look for ways to turn this around - point out the time you got 'drunk' as if THAT is the cause of your marital troubles - rather than a poor choice you may have made once or twice ion response to things already going on. 

He is STILL avoiding taking ANY responsibility for his actions. I know you've already informed me that I have no idea what I'm talking about, and I am prepared to go back through this thread and bring forward your own quotes on his past actions to validate my remarks here, but I am hoping instead that you will reflect on your past history with him and realize the situation. 

It's a GAME, Tilly - he plays it because it's a habit, and it has worked in the past: if he can make YOU feel guilty, you'll excuse his behaviors and let him get back to what he is used to doing. He will play this game until it no longer works. And it will only stop when YOU quit playing.

Sure, you have done things wrong, and sure, you need to take responsibility for them. Yes, you play a large part in the troubles in your marriage. We all do.

But you did not choose to cheat. He did. And - he REFUSES to stop cheating. In fact, he keeps coming up with reasons NOT to stop. And you keep acting like it's all OK. Well, is it? If not, why give him even ONE excuse?

HIS actions, HIS choices, are _HIS_ responsibility. So he drank himself into the position of making a bad decision. So what? The fact that he is driving the wrong way down the lane does NOT mean he MUST KEEP DOING IT! He can always stop, and turn the vehicle around.

Next time he sends a 'why?' x20 message to you, IGNORE THE DANGED THING! That is massive self pity - and he is hoping you'll play along and feel all sorry for him. 

Guess what? He's feeling plenty sorry for himself - he doesn't need additional help in that department. Ask him if he needs a hanky, and then ask that he get to the point. Let him know that when he gets over feeling sorry for himself, you'll be ready to talk. ANYTHING except to play his game. 



> "...not sure about that as yet as my son thinks we are all staying at my parents this year...."


Does your son arrange everything? If not, then on what are YOU, his parent, planning? That is FAR more important that what your son 'thinks' is going to happen. Once it's planned, let your son know. That way his thinking will coincide with reality.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Yes more texting. He is game playing. He is using substances.

Thank you for clarifying my thoughts, I will ignore his texts.

He texted again asking who I was with, I said I was with no-one why ? I am married to you and only want you and you to come home.

He replied he was sorry but thought I may have a man here.....and sorry he would not text again.

I replied, Ah yes I see now why you will not text again and I understand why? you are not coming home.


As for my boys, I will wait until I have seen how H is before even committing to let them see him, I have done some thinking and thought perhaps I am being TOO mean, almost with-holding the boys from him but I worry about what he is taking to be honest and worry about my boys with him. 

I learnt a long time ago never to tell them his plans as so far they have not came about.... 

This is not about OW anymore, if he wants to introduce them then so be it but I have to see what he is on, I know methadone has been mentioned. 

I had no idea there was an area for this. 

I have been skimming MB all day so am busted out for the day, I may watch some TV and have a Baileys. 

He wants to come home he knows where the door is, gawd he was so annoyed when I said about "I can't just leave her"......erm... why, you pack your clothes like you did to me and leave! 

I will think more tomorrow, he is very self pityijng, taking very little responsibility for this with OW, I drove past them last week which was amusing, I knew, he knew, she didn't, he took off so fast he could have been in a Rally.

There is no baby just more babble.....and some possible stds,sorry, blame the Baileys on that last comment I feel a tad bitter with him, again.

What to do. Ignore completely? this could work as my phone bill is due and I have yet to pay it, I could let it slip, like I say if its important he knows where the house is should he feel the need to leave love nest?

Yes, I need to plan Christmas. I keep forgetting about it. I breed pedigree cats but they would be okay for a night I think, I don't know, it would be strange being here alone.

I should also add in the hope this is anonymous that last year was about taking steriods and I felt he bordering on abuse. no it was abuse.


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## tilly (Oct 28, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> T
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I apologise if I have came across as crass, whilst I have been on here I am withdrawing all the time from diazepam every day as I just want all toxins gone and it makes me look/sound terrible at times. I am not (honest) 

I appreciate every single word typed to me.


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