# Strange but true.



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Has anyone noticed that very few WS come to TAM? During my attempt at reconciliation, I visited several sites dealing with infidelity, and most of them have considerably more WS posters than we do. I wonder why that is? Are they being scared off by the pretty obvious bias against WS, that this site seems to exhibit?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

When I started coming here, there were a lot more WS, but since I have been here a while, it has tailed off to pretty much next to none, recently


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

I Think this is mainly a male forum. Surviving Infidellity is mostly a woman forum. I Think people kind of migrate to the Place they feel most comfortable with. 

Also I Think this site tends to be a lot harder on WS that other sites and that would also push some away.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

This place has definitely evolved to be more oriented toward BSs.

People who are still dealing with the raw emotion of being betrayed and come here to let out some of the emotion with people who are going through the same thing don't mix well with people who have betrayed their spouses and are here looking for support and understanding.

A separate room might help as it would seem rather useless for people to go into that room to just to berate all WSs. Similar to the separate men's and woman's lounges - people are generally cut more slack in there from the "other side". For example, it seems rather useless for a woman to trawl the men's lounge berating men who come there for support from other men. obviously there is a lot of opposite sex "guests" in these lounges but i think behavior is different when you are a guest at the party as the whole context and atmosphere is different.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Yes, if you look at earlier years you can find WW talking to BH, trying to explain what is going on in their heads in an honest way. in some cases the WW are trying to help the BH to save their marriage. This is positive. Too bad TAM is not more tolerant.

Flood, you seldom are encouraged to reconcile with your ex here, but if you went to a site with a lot of women or even the ladies club house maybe you would discover that larger percent would encourage you to get back together.

May you should re-tell your story on another forum.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I also think that a lot of it is the supervision (or lack of it) here on TAM. On the SI form and to a lesser degree LS, the moderators are much more proactive in enforcing the rules and ensuring that there is no large scale badmouthing going on.
It's a two edged sword. On SI, it is very structured, which sometimes inhibits the free flow of ideas, whereas on TAM it is less rigid, but sometimes can be offensive.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Has anyone noticed that very few WS come to TAM?
> 
> I wonder why that is? Are they being scared off by the pretty obvious bias against WS, that this site seems to exhibit?


It's because they get *slaughtered* when they post their stories in the CWI section of TAM.


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## Shooboomafoo (Mar 30, 2011)

I don't see WW actively seeking out a forum to talk about it in a constructive manner, seeking answers to why they are ruining their marriage. 
I found this forum by looking up the term "I love you but not in love with you" in the yahoo search box. The findings were the first time I was exposed to the idea that I had too consider that my wife was having an affair of some sort. Up until that point, I thought it was a result of me being a lousy husband/dad/friend/confidant especially after sixteen years with her nine of those married.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

2ntnuf said:


> I think you are probably correct on both counts. I've always thought, since I came here, this site was about encouraging divorce, not reconciliation. I realised that right after I got here. At least, that was my impression when I was in the throws of pain and depression.


Like political thinking the forum has swung in both directions. When I first came here it was more supportive of R, examining the dynamics of the relationships and what motivated the WS to cheat. That's why I stayed here as my wife and I worked through our R. For a while it became pretty much a "kick her/his ass to the curb." Right now, it seems fairly balanced in comparison.

As far as the wayward interaction here, they come here more often then members know because they are often hammered so hard in the first hour or so, they delete their threads and leave. I make a habit of checking the content of the deleted threads to see why they left. If I find a member has been abusive to them, I will generally give them a temp ban then PM the WS letting them know and asking them to try again. Rarely do they come back

The most positive WS thread I've ever seen here was the one by Tears. The reason she survived was her regret and pain of her ONS from the get go. Her immediate confession to her husband and his exit from the marriage. It was very poignant and really showed how one stupid decision can hurt so many, so deeply.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I also think that a lot of it is the supervision (or lack of it) here on TAM. On the SI form and to a lesser degree LS, the moderators are much more proactive in enforcing the rules and ensuring that there is no large scale badmouthing going on.
> It's a two edged sword. *On SI, it is very structured, which sometimes inhibits the free flow of ideas, whereas on TAM it is less rigid, but sometimes can be offensive*.


This. Specially true the bolded part. The compromises, the lines are just different.
Also remarkable - and sure related - the slow process of becoming more a BH forum than a BW forum. I believe this laxity makes CWI a more suitable forum for males strong reactions and bluntness than for females betrayed spuses.
The natural discomfort of waywards in general become insupportable when we have a WW, more than a WH, not just becasue because males have througher skins but because the countless BHs piling up.


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## rubpy3 (Nov 19, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Yes, if you look at earlier years you can find WW talking to BH, trying to explain what is going on in their heads in an honest way. in some cases the WW are trying to help the BH to save their marriage. This is positive. Too bad TAM is not more tolerant.
> 
> Flood, you seldom are encouraged to reconcile with your ex here, but if you went to a site with a lot of women or even the ladies club house maybe you would discover that larger percent would encourage you to get back together.
> 
> May you should re-tell your story on another forum.


I'm curious what would the reactions be. What are some other more balanced forums?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I think Amp is probably right. The dynamics change periodically. Rubpy, on the whole, I think TAM is more blanced that most of the other sites. Marriage Builders is far too regimented, as is SI. I think TAM and LS are usually the most balanced between free speech and protecting the posters.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

In my experience, many WSs initially post looking for sympathy, if not outright encouragement for their decisions. They certainly don't find those here.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> As a WW who has only been here since November...I will answer you the best I can.
> 
> We are scared to death.
> 
> ...


I think this is very well stated, although the bolded part only comes into play when the BS is still in love and wants to reconcile and save the marriage. Otherwise, the hurt of their spouse really means nothing to them except to reinforce their current feelings and thoughts, even though the WS thinks that the BS should be backing them and sticking up for them against such attacks (even though they have been doing nothing but attacking the BS behind their back with friends, family, and APs, they just don't see it as the same belittling they are receiving nor view it as justified).

Also as far as being crucified, due to the brashness and forthright statements, lots of the BS are crucified whether the WS realizes it or not. It is seen as the 2x4 effect around here and as stated the WS think they are coming here to get support and agreement with their actions and decisions to cheat. They also don't generally come here with an ownership of what they have done (they view things as the only possible option in their marriage at the time, it was a mistake, it should be forgotten easily, and don't know/ realize/ care the amount of hurt they have caused).


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Has anyone noticed that very few WS come to TAM? During my attempt at reconciliation, I visited several sites dealing with infidelity, and most of them have considerably more WS posters than we do. I wonder why that is? Are they being scared off by the pretty obvious bias against WS, that this site seems to exhibit?
> 
> When I started coming here, there were a lot more WS, but since I have been here a while, it has tailed off to pretty much next to none, recently


I think a lot WS's, WW's in particular, are attacked with such a vengeance, from the start on TAM, that most of them, already arriving in a very defeated state, simply cannot withstand the assault long enough to tell their story. Had B1 not started posting within a day or two of my first post, I wouldn't have stayed beyond my first few posts. Sadly, I honestly don't think B1 and I would be where we are in our reconciliation today. And, as many of you know, we're in an incredibly amazing place in our marriage, despite the piss poor state it had been in for years prior to my A, and despite the level of my betrayal.

The other side of the coin is that if a WS does manage to survive the initial onslaught, and then tries to stay around in an attempt to give voice to WS's for those who are genuinely interested in trying to learn, understand, gain insight, heal, grow, confirm, whatever, etc., they are quickly silenced by those who are only here to project their anger, rage and venom. Too often, the anonymous TAM WS becomes a target for those who weren't able to or who weren't given the opportunity to say what they wanted to say to the WS in their life; be it their own WS, their parent, their extended family member, their friend, etc. So, unfortunately, the TAMers who are truly interested in hearing what the WS has to say, or who may even be interested in helping the WS out of the fog they are in, are drowned out by the angry masses.

Whatever the case, most WS's are either run out of of TAM so quickly that they aren't here long enough to receive help from some of the truly great resources that are available among the incredible jewels that we have in a number of our veteran TAMers. And, other former WS's, like myself, who have been here a while, grow tired of sharing their story over, and over, again, because every time we do, we are subjecting ourselves to the scrutiny once more. 

I'm grateful for all of the help that B1 and I have received from TAM. And, I am also grateful that we have been able to help others by sharing our story. Every time B1 or I get a pm from someone asking for our thoughts and opinions about their situation, or from someone simply thanking us for sharing our story, it inspires me. I'm inspired to keep trying every single day to be a better wife, a better mother, a better friend, and a better person. I'm inspired to be kinder, to be more compassionate, to be stronger, to be more selfless and less selfish. Though, recently, the overall tone at TAM has worn me down. I'm tired and exhausted. My husband, my children, and myself; we have to come first. My time and energy is needed at home. 

With the recent here today/gone tomorrow status of the Reconciliation thread, which is beyond our control and lies with the database admins of TAM, I've been thinking about deleting my original thread and moving on. So, this morning I did delete my thread. Since this is Rookie's thread, most of my TAM buddies will be reading this. I don't plan to do a farewell thread, so to those of you who have followed my reconciliation journey with B1, and who have encouraged, inspired, educated, and hit us with 2 x 4's, as needed, along the way, we thank you. 

I hope you don't mind this "little" thread jack, Rookie! 

Take care, all
~ EI


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## raven3321 (Sep 25, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> As a WW who has only been here since November...I will answer you the best I can.
> 
> We are scared to death.
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

EI said:


> I think a lot WS's, WW's in particular, are attacked with such a vengeance, from the start on TAM, that most of them, already arriving in a very defeated state, simply cannot withstand the assault long enough to tell their story. Had B1 not started posting within a day or two of my first post, I wouldn't have stayed beyond my first few posts. Sadly, I honestly don't think B1 and I would be where we are in our reconciliation today. And, as many of you know, we're in an incredibly amazing place in our marriage, despite the piss poor state it had been in for years prior to my A, and despite the level of my betrayal.
> 
> The other side of the coin is that if a WS does manage to survive the initial onslaught, and then tries to stay around in an attempt to give voice to WS's for those who are genuinely interested in trying to learn, understand, gain insight, heal, grow, confirm, whatever, etc., they are quickly silenced by those who are only here to project their anger, rage and venom. Too often, the anonymous TAM WS becomes a target for those who weren't able to or who weren't given the opportunity to say what they wanted to say to the WS in their life; be it their own WS, their parent, their extended family member, their friend, etc. So, unfortunately, the TAMers who are truly interested in hearing what the WS has to say, or who may even be interested in helping the WS out of the fog they are in, are drowned out by the angry masses.
> 
> ...


Anytime, Cutie pie!


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I am here with my WH now, both of us posting on the same thread. Lots of posters telling me to leave. I know our marriage is in a bad place but I am here trying to save it. My WH is getting a lot of harsh posts. I hope he stays for a little while and really tries R.

But it looks like that may not happen.

Really a shame.


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## solvednothing (Jan 31, 2014)

I am both a WS and BS; does that count? 

I just posted for the first time today, after months of lurking. This forum has given me much insight into the BS's devastation, and that no matter how bad the relationship is many BS are completely blindsided by the infidelity. (Believe it or not myself included). 

It has also helped reinforce my belief that cheating doesn't solve anything. In my case it only made things worse. I wish I was on this forum seeking marriage help before I thought about starting an affair. 

Also I have to say looking at the threads about sex in marriage have also been very insightful for me--to see the male perspective on issues of frequency and intimacy and how rejection is perceived. All very helpful for me. 

So thank you to all for your honesty.


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## martyc47 (Oct 20, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> I think you are probably correct on both counts. I've always thought, since I came here, this site was about encouraging divorce, not reconciliation. I realised that right after I got here. At least, that was my impression when I was in the throws of pain and depression.


No. This site just doesn't celebrate FALSE R !


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Amplexor said:


> Like political thinking the forum has swung in both directions. When I first came here it was more supportive of R, examining the dynamics of the relationships and what motivated the WS to cheat. That's why I stayed here as my wife and I worked through our R. For a while it became pretty much a "kick her/his ass to the curb." Right now, it seems fairly balanced in comparison.
> 
> As far as the wayward interaction here, they come here more often then members know because they are often hammered so hard in the first hour or so, they delete their threads and leave. I make a habit of checking the content of the deleted threads to see why they left. If I find a member has been abusive to them, I will generally give them a temp ban then PM the WS letting them know and asking them to try again. Rarely do they come back
> 
> The most positive WS thread I've ever seen here was the one by Tears. The reason she survived was her regret and pain of her ONS from the get go. Her immediate confession to her husband and his exit from the marriage. It was very poignant and really showed how one stupid decision can hurt so many, so deeply.


Many really good BS posters that were pro reconcilliation have been intolerably baited, responded, and banned. 8 years cheating comes to mind and there have been others. Not only ws get crucified here. Many rules are regularly ignored. Troll accusations are made daily and ignored even when reported.


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## jules1990 (Jun 13, 2013)

One thing I will say for TAM is that there are many members who are bitter and angry, maybe, rightly so for their own stories but they also allow it to spill out into other peoples stories too. I also think that there needs to be more asking of questions and enquisition as opposed to outright "do this, do that and follow the instructions to the letter", unless more specifically asked there should be more asking for information to enable help or more inqusition as to the particular surroundings, maybe?


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

It seems pointless to scare the WS off from the get go... the best picture is one you can see from all angles. 

I get being harsh, but until you have been in their shoes it seems counterproductive to just call them a POS and run them off. 

That said, I agree that there is never a reason, no justification, etc. But people are not ideal, perfect animals... they are effed up, and subsequently do effed up things to each other.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

MSP said:


> In my experience, many WSs initially post looking for sympathy, if not outright encouragement for their decisions. They certainly don't find those here.


But the WS who shows real remorse and understanding. Don't they offer a valuable source? 

How are we to "cope" and man or woman up if we enter into R blindly. So I won't offer tea and sympathy to a blatant WS.

But help is help. And on a public forum, I try to help and I've gotten more than I've spent countless hours looking for and dealing with shrinks. Just my opinion on waywards posting. I can tell the difference. I post or ignore accordingly.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

jules1990 said:


> One thing I will say for TAM is that there are many members who are bitter and angry, maybe, rightly so for their own stories but they also allow it to spill out into other peoples stories too. I also think that there needs to be more asking of questions and enquisition as opposed to outright "do this, do that and follow the instructions to the letter", unless more specifically asked there should be more asking for information to enable help or more inqusition as to the particular surroundings, maybe?


There need to be exceptions to the rule: Weightlifter (just one of many seasoned vets)that offer advice you simply can't buy and piece together easily. 

So outright edicts to incite I agree. But learn from my experience I'm giving you free advice...that's help. And it's what some of us need not hammering but clarity from a seasoned vet? I'll take that advice and that's who I want having my virtual back so to speak.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

kristin2349 said:


> So I won't offer tea and sympathy to a blatant WS.


How about tea and cookies? 

I find the WS sympathy threads to be sad. A lot of times they get the potential for a real wake-up call from posters here, but slip away, probably to pursue their illusory dream of riding off into the sunset with their OM/OW. Does anything in this world kill more people than selfishness?


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

MSP said:


> How about tea and cookies?
> 
> I find the WS sympathy threads to be sad. A lot of times they get the potential for a real wake-up call from posters here, but slip away, probably to pursue their illusory dream of riding off into the sunset with their OM/OW. Does anything in this world kill more people than selfishness?


Well let's meet in the middle on a coffee/tea and a cupcake

If it reads in the way of wake up calls needed. They have some control over their response. So I really admire anyone who can be truly open and put their experience warts and all on display. Those who can root out the sarcasm and snipes are looking for a push. Those who run to the AP or D are likely leaning. 

Kindness is underrated. (I've been shown much of it here in my selfish posts). I'm working on that. There is a piece of betrayal that I think if indulged goes selfish and destructive. A good reminder for me. 

I don't want to nitpick or thread jack. 

If the wayward can be swayed by public forum posts are they up to the work of R? I did read that right I think. :scratchhead:


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EI said:


> I think a lot WS's, WW's in particular, are attacked with such a vengeance, from the start on TAM, that most of them, already arriving in a very defeated state, simply cannot withstand the assault long enough to tell their story. Had B1 not started posting within a day or two of my first post, I wouldn't have stayed beyond my first few posts. Sadly, I honestly don't think B1 and I would be where we are in our reconciliation today. And, as many of you know, we're in an incredibly amazing place in our marriage, despite the piss poor state it had been in for years prior to my A, and despite the level of my betrayal.
> 
> The other side of the coin is that if a WS does manage to survive the initial onslaught, and then tries to stay around in an attempt to give voice to WS's for those who are genuinely interested in trying to learn, understand, gain insight, heal, grow, confirm, whatever, etc., they are quickly silenced by those who are only here to project their anger, rage and venom. Too often, the anonymous TAM WS becomes a target for those who weren't able to or who weren't given the opportunity to say what they wanted to say to the WS in their life; be it their own WS, their parent, their extended family member, their friend, etc. So, unfortunately, the TAMers who are truly interested in hearing what the WS has to say, or who may even be interested in helping the WS out of the fog they are in, are drowned out by the angry masses.
> 
> ...


I hope you made a copy. You and B1s story is very helpful, to you to reflect on and others to learn from what you did wrong and what you had success with.

I definitely get the exhaustion you are talking about. Just reading here is painful and taxing. I can only imagine pouring your life out hear.

Anyhow.... thanks.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Chaparral said:


> Many really good BS posters that were pro reconcilliation have been intolerably baited, responded, and banned. 8 years cheating comes to mind and there have been others. Not only ws get crucified here. Many rules are regularly ignored. Troll accusations are made daily and ignored even when reported.


I think that comes and goes. 8 Years was a shame and I was the one that in the end banned him. I had PM'd him several times and he got a couple of temp bans, but in the end he just couldn't keep his emotions in check and crossed the line one too many times. He even directly attacked me for a statement I had made that was very difficult for the BS to swallow but reflected a real life experience of my own. He just got a PM warning from me but weeks later went off on a number of members. It really was a lose to the forum because at the time we had a group labeled the "Wolf Pack" by the mods that were relentless in attacking BSs. He promoted and defended R in almost all cases and as I recall his own story was pretty remarkable. I had a huge amount of respect for him.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

There are many, many, wayward and formerly wayward spouses on TAM.

They just don't post their story because it's like chumming the water for sharks.

They know better.

If the infidelity was years ago, and they have processed it accordingly in their own life, all telling the story now is going to do is trigger someone who is recently betrayed and sees them as a punching bag.

So although I understand what you are saying, it isn't completely correct. 

There may not be lots of wayward threads, but there are plenty of wayward and formally wayward spouses that participate.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Rookie4 said:


> I also think that a lot of it is the supervision (or lack of it) here on TAM. On the SI form and to a lesser degree LS, the moderators are much more proactive in enforcing the rules and ensuring that there is no large scale badmouthing going on.
> It's a two edged sword. On SI, it is very structured, which sometimes inhibits the free flow of ideas, whereas on TAM it is less rigid, but sometimes can be offensive.


Double edged sword to be sure. I’m perma banned there as is my WW. 

Because of the very strict rules and enforcement, my unremorseful WW got banned. In my opinion, that was a bad thing. She was reaching out, seeking advice, and sort of took offense that the other waywards were calling her out (I think she expected some support). Rather than reason with her and really explain how flawed her thinking was, they banned her essentially because she was still terribly foggy. 

Later she tried again using a different name. Was spotted right away and immediately banned again.

Me, basically I got banned for pointing out in general men go to women for relationship advice. Therefore some WW complaining that her husband was talking about his relationship woes with a female co-worker wasn’t necessarily a EA. That rubbed a particular admin wrong. From there on out if I so much as noted there were any differences between genders, I was warned. Couldn’t hold my tongue... got banned for lashing out at this admin when she popped on the Men’s thread and told us to watch gender bashing (which was really nothing more than noting how similar all our WW’s princess entitlement syndrome were). 

I even tried to go through official channels to become unbanned after two years. Nope. Burned my bridges. I’m ok with that. Do miss some of the posters there though.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

TAM is generally guided by proven strategies:

1) Expose the affair, take all the fun out of it;
2) Be prepared to lose the marriage/relationship rather than accept compromises that will kill R success. The best example of this is WS cannot work with AP;
3) Consider genuine remorse as essential to R;
4) Do not be friends with WS/do not allow cake eating;
5) Take care of your own health, get a life;
6) Figure out co-dependency issues;
7) Be confident and look forward to the future;
8) Never leave the marital home or bed; let the cheater shift places;

All of this advice is well proven. But it may not apply in every case. Tears's husband left. But that did not have much affect on their situation. It seems that they reconciled in the end. But her husband might have been too broken by his post D drinking and womanizing to recover. We'll probably never know. Tears is unlikely to update now.

Some WS are very proud people. You can only push them so far before they will quit their marriage. They may be willing to stay but they do not have the type of personality to accept being unequal. That is just a reality of interpersonal dynamics. It may take years before they admit a more profound level of guilt/fault. 

Some BS may not be very nice people while some WS maybe super nice. That is not PC to say but it surely is the case sometimes.

I have female buddy (old classmate) who was open to an affair with me. I declined. I know that she cheated with someone else. She is a school teacher and a very warm and caring person. Her husband refused to have children. She wanted them very much. They were rejected as adoptive parents due to age. Her husband is a selfish jerk, but not an evil bad person. They are codependent in a marriage that goes up and down.

He often took jobs overseas and left her alone for months at a time. I suspect he cheated on her but I've never asked.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I remember all you talk about in your post Racer. I remember your wife's two attemps of start there and your ban too.
I do believe yours was a loss for SI.
I don't believe you wife would survive any online board anyway if you ask me.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Acabado said:


> I don't believe you wife would survive any online board anyway if you ask me.


She would. The thing about her is if you can drive her rage, she goes so far off the reservation that even she is forced to see how insane she has gone. Nothing better than her own written inerasable words for her to reflect upon. She isn't crazy... that's why it works so well. She'll see her own sickness on how far she's gone. You just need those pushing her, and pushing her and getting her to question herself to get there.

And it would have helped me immensely. I had to do it alone. And anything that comes out of my mouth is already considered self-serving and hardly impartial. It took me a year to break her fog, disassemble her enabling support network, and oh so much more damage occurred during that time. Since you are still there, read up on Wincings_Sparkle's old stories and how unremorseful she was... my wife was pretty much like that. And I had to do basically what Wincing had to do too. Dresden.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I never joined the site but I ofter read the wayward side (learned tons there) and the men forum. It's a shame she didn't manage to stay within the guidelines, they are certainly too strict. Did your wife try any other similar source? 

WAL and Sparkle story is just incredible.
I'm starting to think yours si also one!!!!


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

I have little sympathy for the wayward 

I'm honest about it. 

No matter who or what your story the one thing a wayward has done universally is to treat the person/s closest to them with nil respect. 

My outlook philosophy on life is that you don't get any points for that. None 

The one thing that earns my respect is first off seeing genuine unconditional remorse straight off the bat no matter the circumstances, and 90% of the waywards that start on here show none of it - they often want some validation for their actions and sorry but I won't under any circumstances give it.

I tend to stay out of them these days 

I also believe when a wayward really wants to atone for their misdemeanors they can and will man up and be prepared to take the flak that comes with the territory. I think the people that stay here and accept / take that and then gain respect for that are also the ones most likely to achieve some long lasting true reconciliation 

On the flip side it seems to me that anyone not prepared to listen to some harsh criticism for, lets face it, ripping families lives to shreds is someone who is looking for justification and support for it and has little chance of reconciliation anyway

Personally I can't see the problem - you _choose_ to hurt people and get caught doing it then face up to what you've done, and taking some sh!t is part of that process. 

I believe that taking some of that harsh treatment is part of a wayward understanding the true gravity of what they have done. Going further I don't think they can in any real way atone for their betrayals unless they are made aware just how bad this sh!t really is

my twopence


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Acabado, I think that the problem with SI is that because they are so strict, they never let posters last long enough to get to know them and their style of posting. Sometimes a private warning is better than banning.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

I believe that the anonymity of the forum encourages people to be unwittingly far more harsh than they would be in a face-to-face situation.

Harshness in CWI is directed to WS, undeniably, but also to BS who do not readily embrace the advice that they are given, particularly advice on the eight issues enumerated by LongWalk.

I have often felt that 2x4 are most effective when used sparingly. 

I also think that once a poster uses a needed 2x4, other posters should refrain from following suit, and make their posts support the 2x4, rather than post 2x4s themselves. 

Civility should be a value of CWI's veteran posters -on the whole they are- and deviations from that, be selective and well-thought out. 

WS and BS are driven out, I think, not by the substance of confrontation, but more by its manner.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Has anyone noticed that very few WS come to TAM? During my attempt at reconciliation, I visited several sites dealing with infidelity, and most of them have considerably more WS posters than we do. I wonder why that is? *Are they being scared off by the pretty obvious bias against WS, that this site seems to exhibit*?


Probably and so what? If they expect sunshine blown up their arses and don't understand the kind of pain and anger their actions have caused, then its probably better if they do leave if they don't have the thick enough skin to change and do what is right.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> But the WS who shows real remorse and understanding. Don't they offer a valuable source?


Yes, they do. And I think there are some good ones here at TAM.

And even those will get what I consider a mild dose of harshness.

But the real harshness is targeted towards those that want to blameshift their behavior and look for sympathy for the "reasons" why they cheated.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

vellocet said:


> Probably and so what? If they expect sunshine blown up their arses and don't understand the kind of pain and anger their actions have caused, then its probably better if they do leave if they don't have the thick enough skin to change and do what is right.


I guess it depends on your goals. If it is to vent your spleen and unleash your hate on a wayward, then no problem. But if it is to help them get over their selfish behavior and try to change, then perhaps chasing them off is problematic.

I do think that there is a healthy middle ground between some of the venom seen at times and the unhelpful sunshine you describe above.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Because they don't like being exposed and WS are normally very selfish and entitled passive aggressive types. They don't like it when "sh!t gets real". That's why. 

And plus, there's no shortage of BS on this board that will give them a hard truthful dose of reality. 

I thought Cheaters and people in affairs have a forum. They probably do. I don't know really, since I don't associate with bottom dwellers and scrubz. Even on the interwebs.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Amplexor said:


> As far as the wayward interaction here, they come here more often then members know because they are often hammered so hard in the first hour or so, they delete their threads and leave. I make a habit of checking the content of the deleted threads to see why they left. If I find a member has been abusive to them, I will generally give them a temp ban then PM the WS letting them know and asking them to try again. Rarely do they come back


We had a BS on the board yesterday that deleted his thread after about an hour. His reason for deleting it was "This place is too negative." I reviewed the thread and the member responses were tough but fine. This happens often as the average guy that comes here because of a disconnected wife rarely suspects infidelity and gets pounded with accusations about his wife out of the gate. Even though as veteran members we know the odds are good that a third party is involved emotionally or physically. Tough for anyone to handle when they are screwed up in the first place. I PM'd him but got pretty much a screw you response.

Sad really as no matter what the base issue in his marriage is, he's missing out on a lot of sage.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

There's a difference between tough love and bashing your own wayward by proxy.

Those really clever zingers you either were to cowardly to use on your wayward or only just thought of now? 

Don't give them to someone else's wayward on TAM. It's not helpful and can render some threads toxic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I guess it depends on your goals. If it is to vent your spleen and unleash your hate on a wayward, then no problem. But if it is to help them get over their selfish behavior and try to change, then perhaps chasing them off is problematic.


If simply giving the harsh truth and reality chases them off, then they need a thicker skin after what they did to someone they claim to love.

Now if someone if just flat out on the offensive and turning into personal attacks, then that is wrong.

But a WS should expect people calling it like they see it and should expect some people to want to give them a V8 slap upside the head. Otherwise all they more than likely want is coddling and validation. I see too many motives that are the effect of "I'm sorry and remorseful, BUT my BS did this that and the other and that is why"

There are no "BUTS". Own your shyte.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

People, well most people, hate it when their character is exposed. Especially those with major character flaws (cheaters are big time on the lame factor of character). It should be no surprise, even on a cyberspace anonymous forum, that these types of people can't stand it when things scratch the surface. I really wish WS would come more often to TAM, as most of the advice given is spot on. But their ego and warped moral compass won't let them hang on to long or even post.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

TheFlood117 said:


> People, well most people, hate it when their character is exposed. Especially those with major character flaws (cheaters are big time on the lame factor of character). It should be no surprise, even on a cyberspace anonymous forum, that these types of people can't stand it when things scratch the surface. I really wish WS would come more often to TAM, as most of the advice given is spot on. But their ego and warped moral compass won't let them hang on to long or even post.


I agree. Here is the thing, and yes, I know I'm hard on cheaters, but will never take it to the personal attack arena. But there are WS's here who get it and are doing what needs to be done to make it up to their BS. WS's such as EI and Mrs. John Adams. WS's like that I think get even the most spirited BS's who are opinionated about cheating to listen and realize that there are WS's out there that do understand and take even the harsh comments to heart.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

vellocet said:


> If simply giving the harsh truth and reality chases them off, then they need a thicker skin after what they did to someone they claim to love.
> 
> Now if someone if just flat out on the offensive and turning into personal attacks, then that is wrong.
> 
> ...


Sure. But a lot of posters go far beyond that. They vent their hate and anger in the guise of tough love. The focus on piling on the WS without offering any assistance. As noted by others, it is not tough love, it is using the posting WS as a surrogate for their own WS. 

And the fact is that some WS take time to owning their choice. I don't see chasing them off before getting a chance to get them to see the light as particularly helpful. Some posters need the WS to immediately "get it" when they arrive. While that is great if it happens, it often does not. Then what?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

The truth is that most people don't like to be browbeaten and called names. 
It is perfectly all right to point out the WS failings, but when 50 posters impolitely give you sh*t, and only 1 or 2 try to help you with the answers. I can see it would be really frustrating. After all, they wouldn't be here if they didn't want help, would they. Very, very, few WS come to TAM to flaunt their affairs or to argue that what they did was a good thing. Instead of "tough love' how about trying reason. Who knows, it might work.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

My wife has been here and has read a great deal. It has helped us heal (rebuild) our marriage. 

She cries when she reads about a BS finding out. She asks me if this is what I went through


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

vellocet said:


> I agree. Here is the thing, and yes, I know I'm hard on cheaters, but will never take it to the personal attack arena. But there are WS's here who get it and are doing what needs to be done to make it up to their BS. WS's such as EI and Mrs. John Adams. WS's like that I think get even the most spirited BS's who are opinionated about cheating to listen and realize that there are WS's out there that do understand and take even the harsh comments to heart.


Yeah, I don't know the WS's on the forum to much. I've heard of EI, she seems alright and pretty remorseful I guess. Don't know the Adams chick. I've gone after a few of the people that come here and talk about their current affair. There was this one punk who was banging some guys wife that he worked with and was all "in luv with her" and stuff. I think that one got me banned, lol.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

vellocet said:


> I agree. Here is the thing, and yes, I know I'm hard on cheaters, but will never take it to the personal attack arena. But there are WS's here who get it and are doing what needs to be done to make it up to their BS. WS's such as EI and Mrs. John Adams. WS's like that I think get even the most spirited BS's who are opinionated about cheating to listen and realize that there are WS's out there that do understand and take even the harsh comments to heart.


Except even they are attacked if they don't toe the party line.. Too often, the enemy of the good is not bad, it is perfect. When even those WS use language that is not exactly and precising what a particular BS believes, they are attacked as not getting it. No allowance for different experiences or poor word choice or another interpretation.

So imagine how a new WS, not understanding what they need to do or how their words and actions can cause more hurt, walk into here and attempt to communicate their own jumbled emotions. They are then attacked, often viciously. Yes, some will never get it. But some would, if the vitriol were reduced. 

So again, I ask what is the goal when posting here.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

If you have a wound, which would you rather have clean it, a soft cloth or a wire brush. Both will get it clean, but one is a lot easier to take.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Rookie4 said:


> Instead of "tough love' how about trying reason. Who knows, it might work.


I find, in all things, that "tough love" is too often used to excuse poor behavior, such as humiliating or belittling a person. Tough love can be done in a reasonable and firm manner without constant insults and derision. A person can be reasonable and yet not sugar coat the hurt and damage that has been done.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Absolutely, right. Trouble is, the WS get such a beating , that they become defensive and won't listen to reason, even when it is presented. So everybody loses.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, Mrs. A, I'm fit enough, and my GF thinks I'm handsome (though I don't know why), But I'm pretty far from the COP thing. Nobody has called me cute, since my Grandmaw. But I do OK.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

Tough love is OK.

But it has to be thought out, not used as a knee reflex!

Before giving it out, lets think: "is tough love what is needed here?"


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> A little gray haired sweet tiny little grandma with a cane and glasses.


The worst kind!


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> A little gray haired sweet tiny little grandma with a cane and glasses.


I think Mrs. JA is being a bit too modest......she is a hot little blond....I think the term is GILF


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

TheFlood117 said:


> Because they don't like being exposed and WS are normally very selfish and entitled passive aggressive types. They don't like it when "sh!t gets real". That's why.
> 
> And plus, there's no shortage of BS on this board that will give them a hard truthful dose of reality.
> 
> *I thought Cheaters and people in affairs have a forum.* They probably do. I don't know really, since I don't associate with bottom dwellers and scrubz. Even on the interwebs.


*They do. It's called COPING WITH INFIDELITY! *

Edited to add: Bottom dwellers and scrubz are not limited to cheaters. They can be found all over the interwebs....... Why, I've even encountered some on TAM...... who weren't even WS's!


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

johnAdams said:


> I think Mrs. JA is being a bit too modest......she is a hot little blond....I think the term is GILF


GILFs rock.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> The truth is that most people don't like to be browbeaten and called names.


That would refer to the personal attack I mentioned that is plain wrong.




> It is perfectly all right to point out the WS failings, but when 50 posters impolitely give you sh*t, and only 1 or 2 try to help you with the answers.


The threads where I see that many posters giving them sh*t are the ones where the WS's are blameshifting and making excuses.

In a thread where the WS understands and isn't making excuses and genuinely wants to help their BS get past the pain they caused, you don't really see this. Sure you have a couple that slip through really jamming on them, but not at the level you mentioned above.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Except even they are attacked if they don't toe the party line..


I agree, but not at the "chase them off" level of which we are referring. You are always going to have a couple people who will take even the most remorseful WS and try to bash them. And its those people that even the other BS's, even the adamantly anti-cheater ones like me, will call them out on it to let them know said WS is not like the others.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

IDK which threads you have been visiting, but I've seen some that were like a feeding frenzy of sharks.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Well let me explain the whole "tough love" thing.

How can a WS truly understand the pain and anger they have caused if they don't hear it from people that have been there?

Let me get this out of the way, there is telling it like it is, and there is plain old bashing/personal attacks. The latter does no good.

But I can tell a WS more than likely what their BS is going through. And it isn't pretty....never is. I'm not going to sugarcoat it and lead a WS to believe that their BS isn't boiling over on the inside. Sometimes they need to see some of that anger that their BS is really feeling, but bottling up. They need to see how it affected people that have been in their BS's shoes.

Again, leave the personal attacks out of it. But getting a little harshness, that some see as bashing, is a representation of how their BS more than likely feels, but tries to suppress it.

If they don't want to hear it from people that are in their BS's shoes or have been, well?......


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

vellocet said:


> I agree, but not at the "chase them off" level of which we are referring. You are always going to have a couple people who will take even the most remorseful WS and try to bash them. And its those people that even the other BS's, even the adamantly anti-cheater ones like me, will call them out on it to let them know said WS is not like the others.


And how do those folks get to be not like the others? When a WS is trying to R and do the right thing, chasing them off because they don't get it in the beginning is not helping the WS or the BS.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> IDK which threads you have been visiting, but I've seen some that were like a feeding frenzy of sharks.


You aren't listening. I said they are there, it does happen. But it usually happens to the ones that either 1) deserve it, or 2) are blameshifting and making excuses.

I've seen some bashing of the truly remorseful WS's, but it wasn't at the level as described earlier. Its there, but even the most anti-cheating types soften up around ones like MJA and EI (sorry if I am leaving out others, those two are just the most obvious that come to mind)


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> And how do those folks get to be not like the others?


By not coming to this site and starting out with an immediate plethora of bullsh*t excuses and blameshifting to begin with. They aren't like the others because they just are not.



> When a WS *is trying to R and do the right thing*, chasing them off because they don't get it in the beginning is not helping the WS or the BS.


This type of person of which you speak isn't the type that will get everyone jumping down their throats. A few yes, but not as much as the gaslighters.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Bull, EI was crucified when she first got here, as was "Tears" They were really trying to understand what was happening to their BS, but all they got , at first was a LOT of this tough love crap. Both of them weathered the storm, but both of them were very close to leaving. So what good did all of that ranting do? I am pretty sure that every single WS who comes to TAM has a fairly good knowledge of the pain their affairs have caused. It doesn't have to be beaten into their minds.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

vellocet said:


> By not coming to this site and starting out with an immediate plethora of bullsh*t excuses and blameshifting to begin with. They aren't like the others because they just are not.


And how do they get to that point? 



> This type of person of which you speak isn't the type that will get everyone jumping down their throats. A few yes, but not as much as the gaslighters.


I don't think that is correct. 

I have seen folks come on here, take some measure of responsibility and then are destroyed because it was not enough. Some one tries to understand, calls it a mistake and then endures 2 dozen posts about how their choice of words shows that they are not remorseful. 

Remember, we are often dealing with broken people. They could not communicate or handle their emotions properly so they acted selfishly and callously. They have blown up their life, want to fix things but don't know how. So they come here and because they don't understand everything in the chaos that they have created, they get attacked repeatedly by numerous posters.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I agree, especially the new WS's. They are hurting and don't know the procedures, terms or anything. But , of course the rabid BS's who have been here for eons, will jump all over every little miscue, as yet another good reason to bash.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I know for myself this type of tough love would not have helped me after my EA. 

I see a lot of posts that say if someone is truly remorseful they will gladly take the wrath and mean comments because they know they deserve it and I don't agree. They are still people.

I'm sure I would have been eaten alive for not being remorseful enough so what would be the point? What would it have done to help us?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Anyone remember Dexter Morgan?


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Bull, EI was crucified when she first got here, as was "Tears" They were really trying to understand what was happening to their BS, but all they got , at first was a LOT of this tough love crap.


So every single BS was bashing them? Or where they getting it from the usual suspects?

And again, I said that it does happen, but from what I witness it happens more venomously to those that gaslight and make excuses. I realize even the EI's of the forum will get crucified from time to time. So with your "Bull", just calm down.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I think we all want TAM to be the best forum around for the healing of BOTH the WS and BS, and I think a good step forward is if posters would show more kindness.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I would never bring my wife near TAM because of the treatment she would get as a former wayward. Just not going to do it.

We found it very hard to talk about the affair, and didn't for the longest time. When we came back to it, and opened up, it became clear that it was very hard for her to see the things I said as anything other than a personal attack, and she struggled to deal with that.

Once we worked through that, it became easier to talk, and we have talked a lot more. That was good. But it started with making it as safe as possible for her to talk.

This idea of beating contrition into waywards goes against human nature in my view. There is a place for tough love sometimes, but it seems to flow more freely here than I think wise. People are not going to respond to attacks by opening up and being more vulnerable.

And heretical statement, a marriage is about healing and being emotionally happy together. The WS has their pain, remorse and guilt. I can't have the best marriage with my wife unless I can help her move past hers. I don't need her to do all the heavy lifting. Part of the joy of a good marriage is the pleasure of helping her out.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I think many times perceptions can be distorted by viewpoint.

One poster's blunt assessment of what to them is obvious self-serving malarkey can be construed as a campaign to run off another poster.

That other poster in a different frame of mind may even come to understand how nonsensical their posting is.

I am sure that some cheating spouses actually believe that they did no evil because:

1. they didn't intent to
2. it just happened
3. besides, my spouse did x, y, and z

Seeing that many betrayed spouses feel duty bound to call it out.

So calling out the muddled thinking is a first step.

Providing an alternate way of thinking about the destructive behavior is the next. As in, move beyond thinking only of the impact on themself.

Where folks get stuck is in that selfish zone of protecting their own interests.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

vellocet said:


> So every single BS was bashing them? Or where they getting it from the usual suspects?
> 
> And again, I said that it does happen, but from what I witness it happens more venomously to those that gaslight and make excuses. I realize even the EI's of the forum will get crucified from time to time. So with your "Bull", just calm down.


For me in my long time on here the wayward or wayward sympathizers exaggerate the 'legions' of betrayed spouses that throw stones at them

I often just look and don't participate and sure there is some hard liners and sure there is some but very actually little abusive attacks.

It's often a all a bit 'woe is me' frankly

Obviously all of us are different and react in our own way to criticism but this particular subject matter is unique in all human behavior imo and short of murder and rape nothing else gets close to the destruction infidelity causes. That's actually the main problem about it - the pain and suffering caused by it is all very very 'clean' - there's no blood or instant active physical trauma as in those two - Is there any less pain ? Not in my opinion - just that it's all mental 

Mindless attacks on somebody is inane and stupid and serves no purpose at all and I'll agree ultimately we would all like to see a perpetrator look at themselves and choose through inner understanding and circumspection to stop their destructive behaviors

However I'll say this again to any wayward

You've embarked *by CHOICE* upon a course of action that inherently is deceiving treacherous betraying lying and has destroyed 

a/your wife/husband the one who has given more to you than any human alive 
b/your children 
c/the wife husband of another marriage and 
d/their children 
e/the extended families of both sets of marriages of the above and 
f/ peripheral close people friends etc 

This list *are people* they are not sweets in a shop that you stole or coins that you spent or stole

*They are people real people who have real meaning* who have been there for you when times were as bad as it gets for you over the years - your husbands wives dads mums grandparents 

And why ?? For a fantasy ride on the Unicorn you were prepared to throw all of the above into the trash can 

I'm not on a rant here just pointing out the very fundamentals, the basics of the full effects of you and your wayward actions 

That's all before the aftermath of 
lying 
the trickle truthing 
the gaslighting 
the rugsweeping 

etc etc that then compounded the whole infidelity and showed how little or nil respect you actually have for your supposedly loved wife or husband 

If anybody in this thread or on this site thinks that a perpetrator of the above needs a 'slap on the wrist' and "poor you" "yes we need to understand you" or "please don't do that again" then they need their heads examined - in a big way 

Agreed what we don't need to see is "you cvnt" or "you *****" and meaningless screams of abuse. That's just ignorance 

*BUT somewhere in between is where the real message lies* 

Why? because most of the waywards I have ever seen or experienced on here or *real life* all have an in built talent to minimize, to gently deflect the truth. They nearly all have an inbuilt victim psychology within them that helps portray this persona which minimizes true unconditional remorse. Indeed in my time on here I can count the number of waywards that have right from the off exhibited true unconditional remorse probably on the fingers of one hand 

I understand many waywards, hell many people in general, do not want to look at themselves and see and admit a dark side but if it's there and has been the cause of such pain and suffering then they need that to be poked, to be looked and for me whatever it takes for them to be a better person is legitimate and if pointing a finger and a few home truths does the job then all well and good

Any waywards reading this - yeah you can all club together if you want and think 'those hurtful betrayed bastards having another go at us' but I think if you look closely at those little lists above you might garner some understanding of exactly why giving any of you a free ride and 'gentle understanding' is extremely difficult to do.

Unless the circumstances are extraordinary I have nil sympathy for any wayward but I do also realize that if something can help stop it happening again then that is also a legitimate course of action.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Headspin said:


> For me in my long time on here the wayward or wayward sympathizers exaggerate the 'legions' of betrayed spouses that throw stones at them
> 
> ***
> Any waywards reading this - yeah you can all club together if you want and think 'those hurtful betrayed bastards having another go at us' but I think if you look closely at those little lists above you might garner some understanding of exactly why giving any of you a free ride and 'gentle understanding' is extremely difficult to do.


And just as the WS absolutely needs to look inward at themselves, I think a BS needs to look at what they are posting and ask what they are trying to achieve. Because if the goal is to help a WS get to where they need to be, or to get them to stick around and offer their prospective, chasing them off is counter productive.

Unfortunately, all too often that is not the goal.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Headspin said:


> You've embarked by CHOICE upon a course of action that inherently is deceiving treacherous betraying lying and has destroyed
> 
> a/your wife/husband the one who has given more to you than any human alive
> b/your children
> ...


Agree 100%.



Headspin said:


> That's all before the aftermath of
> lying
> the trickle truthing
> the gaslighting
> ...


These can be a sign of contempt, or even attempts to continue the affair by taking it underground. Or they can be normal human nature from someone who has messed up, is in damage control mode, and is out of their depth and doesn't know what they are doing.

Who here doesn't try to be seen in a good light by others? It's human nature.



Headspin said:


> If anybody in this thread or on this site thinks that a perpetrator of the above needs a 'slap on the wrist' and "poor you" "yes we need to understand you" or "please don't do that again" then they need their heads examined - in a big way


Again, I come back to human nature. What matters is not what is said, it is what the wayward hears.

You want the wayward to hear an unpalatable message. Sometimes it is necessary to be forceful to cut through, but at other times you need to earn the right to make a critical observation and let it be heard, really heard. And for some waywards, there is a lot of pain associated with what they have done, and they actually need support. 

There is no one size that fits all. You have to judge it case by case. Public humiliation is only one of several approaches.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Agree 100%.
> 
> These can be a sign of contempt, or even attempts to continue the affair by taking it underground. Or they can be normal human nature from someone who has messed up, is in damage control mode, and is out of their depth and doesn't know what they are doing.
> 
> ...


mmm sorry tbf but it doesn't matter whether its "human nature" or not - It does not hide the number one fact that 

trickle truthing gaslighting rugsweeping deceit lies - all after the event, after dday offer up the biggest lack of respect it is possible to show from one person to another 

Trying to re-lable it as "human nature" or "contemptuous" will not hide that fact EVER

_It is showing nil respect_ to the one person who has given up their very soul for that person, who is willing to die for them 

*"who has messed up, is in damage control mode, and is out of their depth and doesn't know what they are doing".*

With respect Wazza the following sounds like ready made making excuses for them

messed up - sure but so what, still able to choose the destruction they willfully do (messed up to the point of having no mental capability to choose then that's a different and medical story - but that's not what we are talking about here)
damage control - yes another selfish act for _them_ 
out of their depth - no, that expects them to have no say or control about their actions - they do 
doesn't know what they are doing - there's a myriad of answers to that

I appreciate everybody is different and also that everybody, betrayed spouses, may be in a re conciliatory frame of mind and needs to show some sense of almost jointly taking the blame. 

But for me although placatory it also gives a bit of a green light to the wayward that they hardly have a right to


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Headspin said:


> mmm sorry tbf but it doesn't matter whether its "human nature" or not - It does not hide the number one fact that
> 
> trickle truthing gaslighting rugsweeping deceit lies - all after the event, after dday offer up the biggest lack of respect it is possible to show from one person to another
> 
> ...


If your only weapon is to kick people you are going to drive away some you could help. I think that is a shame.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Agree 100%.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A dog will bite you, if you hit it often enough, but that won't make it do what you want. I have NEVER heard of public humiliation being a positive vehicle of behavioral change.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Painting all WS's with the same brush is idiotic.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I don't think there are any bitter betrayed spouses here with unresolved issues, unable to see how they contributed to collapse of their marriage at all.

I mean it's not like they just come here to relive their own pain and take a few shots at waywards who are also in pain. Because after all, we know that waywards can't possibly feel pain about infidelity on their own. We have to beat it into them ... with love ... and a bat; all under the guise of helping them see the truth. That what they did is the most selfish and evil thing anyone could possibly do, ever.

Once they have gotten enough tough love, and have surrendered any sense of dignity, and they haven't given us any lip about any of it ... maybe, just maybe, we'll think of them as slightly more than sub-human. Then again, maybe not. After all, they did cheat.

Us betrayed spouses though, we're always good people who have unjustly been wronged. And we have every right to hang onto that anger and sense of betrayal and let everybody know it ... especially those GD cheaters ... who always seem to need reminding, over and over and over.

I don't know ... I guess I could be wrong.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I don't think there are any bitter betrayed spouses here with unresolved issues, unable to see how they contributed to collapse of their marriage at all.
> 
> I mean it's not like they just come here to relive their own pain and take a few shots at waywards who are also in pain. Because after all, we know that waywards can't possibly feel pain about infidelity on their own. We have to beat it into them ... with love ... and a bat; all under the guise of helping them see the truth. That what they did is the most selfish and evil thing anyone could possibly do, ever.
> 
> ...


*Bingo!...................*


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> A dog will bite you, if you hit it often enough, but that won't make it do what you want. I have NEVER heard of public humiliation being a positive vehicle of behavioral change.


I would consider it to disrupt an ongoing affair and get the cheaters to stop. Sometimes.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I don't think there are any bitter betrayed spouses here with unresolved issues, unable to see how they contributed to collapse of their marriage at all.
> 
> I mean it's not like they just come here to relive their own pain and take a few shots at waywards who are also in pain. Because after all, we know that waywards can't possibly feel pain about infidelity on their own. We have to beat it into them ... with love ... and a bat; all under the guise of helping them see the truth. That what they did is the most selfish and evil thing anyone could possibly do, ever.
> 
> ...


Well yes imo you are actually

None of us are perfect - none of us can say with 100 % certainty we are not also responsible for the breakdown of a marriage. It does take two. However the balance of that is the arguable point. And whatever the balance of it is one thing IS 100% certain - _no problem in a marriage forced a wayward spouse to go out and look for alternative gratification with another man or woman_ whilst they were still married with a partner who was effectively giving their 'all' in as many ways as they could. 
One partner may fall short on some aspect of the marriage but as we know _that is never a reason for the other to commit adultery to destroy the lives_ of those people on that list I just mentioned above in my earlier post 

You're a moderator or admin on here and have been here for years as far as I know which tells me you already know this.

You should look at that list above I made - *only short but the pain and suffering is long and - FOR LIFE.* 

Even in a reconciliation you never get past what that feels like, you merely put it aside into a place where you think it can be arms length and basically hope your wayward other half does not do it all again 

Betrayed spouse do come here and yes you are right, relive their pain and some do take a few shots at a wayward here and there but the truth is it's rare and any wayward with a backbone will recognize that for what it's worth anyway imo and concentrate on the more coherent and learned advice.

And yes many waywards do not - definitely do NOT feel pain about their infidelity - some do but they are rare. Lets face it and although it's simplistic, if you had any idea, any inkling of the trauma and suffering you were about to inflict and cause for your children your husband or wife and other families you simply would not do it would you? 

I'll say it and I'll ask you then - Would you ? you've been here for years and seen thousands of us betrayed and wayward. You know exactly what the nature of the pain turmoil that infidelity is so would you consider for one second inflicting that upon your wife children mum and dad etc etc all to get a scene going in the land of the fog?

Have to say for myself I don't find it difficult at all and I also don't see why it's not so easy for anyone else either. You know it will kill people - so don't do it.

And sure many of us betrayed spouses are good people who have been unjustly wronged and are bitter - so what's the wrong in that. If we are careful enough to not let that project onto everybody else to not let it ruin our next relationship then I'd say that's fine by me. It can give us protection actually. I recently found that new slightly 'harder' side to my nature actually saved me from even more sh!t. 

For me I am a believer in 2nd chances - hell I gave my marriage enough of them so I'm not here after one dday and now despise all cheats. BUT I have learned that you *earn* a second chance and you lay yourself open to the person you have just hung drawn and quartered. You want to get back some respect - you earn it and if you have to take some sh!t as part of the process then tough **** - that's the medicine that may just well work - Again lets face it the wayward has handed out enough of the sh!t in the first place ........but maybe we can all forget that eh? 

You can be as smart and as clever as you want paint it different colors etc etc but ultimately it IS what it is. 

Like many, you're effectively saying "they have their reasons" 

The truth however is that for that one bit they do that rips up lives forever more - actually they don't


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Headspin, I have seen case after case of cheater who didn't mean to get there, it just happened. People make mistakes. But you try and say "the affair was a mistake" on TAM and you will get shot down. 

I would agree with your summation for cheaters who do it consciously and with malice aforethought. But that is only some cheaters.

Ironically, on my observation, it is actually people who set lofty moral goals for themselves who sometimes fail, because they overreached themselves. My wife was like that, one of the factors was she was trying to endure a situation that was difficult in some ways, and she broke. It's not the only reason, and it doesn't excuse what she did.

But it does let me keep an eye on things and warn her to loosen her halo a bit sometimes, to take the pressure off!

One day you may face temptation....I have had a couple of close shaves. I might have fallen if I had bit learned from my wife's mistakes. And then you will understand this. 

This post is not a defence of cheaters, just humanising them.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Headspin, I have seen case after case of cheater who didn't mean to get there, it just happened. People make mistakes. But you try and say "the affair was a mistake" on TAM and you will get shot down.
> 
> I would agree with your summation for cheaters who do it consciously and with malice aforethought. But that is only some cheaters.
> 
> ...


I do understand it. I have been tempted or lets say had it put on a plate for me and I had no problem in turning it down. I also understand the even harder thing well too - the 'close' friend that turns unknowingly into an ea and suddenly you realize this could be something more - you have not encouraged it but by just being yourself another woman has taken that as a green light and you can feel the shift in emotional intercourse. Believe me I know how easily this can happen even if you are not at first looking for it - BUT 

That's the crux isn't it I said "at first" When at first suddenly becomes "now I know" what this is and can become then it's CHOICE that takes over the decision making. 

Differently to you that's why I believe these are not mistakes, it does not 'just happen' - the moment of realization is the defense mechanism that is there to help you decide. It's that moment when you know like a mallet in your head that you are doing WRONG - you know it - you FEEL it in your gut 

And I don't believe for a second I have some special gift here it's just easy to see all the consequences, the pain the trauma, the suffering in about 2 seconds flat 

....and so you leave it 

......*but* if you're a cheat and deep down *want to do that* you don't leave it - you make a meeting after a work and talk about work for 5 minutes and then talk about the failings of your husband / wife. Oh surprise surprise he/she feels the same, his/her spouse is as bad, insensitive to your needs as is yours - Why not have a wine to wash down the news. And now that's funny, but you've noticed just how blue those eyes are now.......god stirrings down below now ....... 

And in your heart, your gut - you KNOW this is wrong - 15 years in and you owe him/her at home a lot more than this .......


but fk it why not


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Headspin, I have seen case after case of cheater who didn't mean to get there, it just happened. People make mistakes. But you try and say "the affair was a mistake" on TAM and you will get shot down.
> 
> I would agree with your summation for cheaters who do it consciously and with malice aforethought. But that is only some cheaters.
> 
> ...


It just happened?.........Really? The WS just happened to fall on somebody elses' D*ck or Pu**y? By accident? Waz, you say a lot of good things, but sometimes you say something particularly clueless, that has me wondering .
ALL affairs are premeditated, every single one of them. Your wife, my wife , every WS, who ever cheated, thought about it beforehand. There is no such thing as spontaneous adultery.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Temptation is perhaps the biggest excuse of all. That plus the ridiculous idea that adultery is an accident, a mistake, or spontaneous. Cheating is not a part of the Autonomic Nervous system, it isn't a reflex, it is a PLANNED activity..........period!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> This reads like, "If we'd all just have an affair, we might understand."


Understanding is important. In my wife's case, it was a very low point in her life, for a whole lot of totally valid reasons. The affair partner was a tutor where she was studying. She couldn't avoid him, she was in his classes. She felt she couldn't talk to me about it...how do you tell your husband this. She couldn't drop out of the course....it was a major plank in our life plan and would have required explanation. So she fought it, and lost. 

There am I a few years later, my marriage in ruins, staying for the kids. An attractive coworker and I became close.......well the thing that headed it off was that I had learned the danger of secrets from my wife's affair, so I told both my wife and the coworker about the situation. And that changed the dynamic. Over twenty years later my wife is still my wife, and the coworker remains a friend, but nothing more. 

We didn't know about dopamine, EA's, exposure, no-contact, and so on. It was pre internet, pre Dr Phil et al, there wasn't a way to find that stuff out. Part of the reason I came onto TAM was that decades after the affair I still didn't totally understand what had happened. Maybe I am showing my age. Maybe for you younger whippersnappers that is no longer the case. But in my day at least, if not now, then yes, to some extent ignorance was a valid defence.

So yes, my wives trickle truth, to pick one example, was incredibly damaging, but I know her intention was not damage. She was just ignorant of the full implications of her actions.



2ntnuf said:


> I don't believe that it's never a decision. That thought leads down a slippery slope.


I didn't say it's never a decision....or if I did I will blame auto correct for messing my words! 

Sometimes it's one big conscious decision, and to me that is unforgivable. Someone who just sets out to have an affair.

Or sometimes it is a lot of small bad decisions that lead you down the slope, and that gets much greyer.



2ntnuf said:


> The WS has the upper hand in the feelings department, because they really don't care. Yes, they feel sorry many times and hurt because they have cheated. If everyone in their life just patted them on the head and said, "Ahh, it's okay. You'll be alright.", they would feel like they were justified. I do not believe anyone is justified in cheating. I do believe they are justified in getting a divorce. Reconciliation is an option when the couple decides to give the marriage a chance. When you add in cheating, there is a different set of thought processes for both the WS and the BS.


I think that it is possible to denounce infidelity while at the same time recognising some of the pressures that led to it. More than that, I think it's essential. A wayward needs to understand why they did what they did if they are to learn from it and avoid repeats.



2ntnuf said:


> If we all just accept that the WS made a mistake and the BS pushed them to it, we our doing not only the BS and injustice, but also the WS.


I never said that. I can accept that sometimes the WS made a series of mistakes, but not always, sometimes it was deliberate. You have to look case by case.



2ntnuf said:


> I do think that holding folks to a higher standard is the correct way. This is a good thread for BSs to read. They need to know marriage, as a monogamous institution, is dead. They need to know that it's okay to cheat, because they will be forgiven and all is well. Hey, their spouse might already have done it. What's the big deal? Everyone does it.


Again, I never said that. There is a place for forgiveness but there is also a place for drawing lines and consequences. It's a balance. If you really believe I came within a million miles of saying it is ok to cheat, then you have totally missed my point.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Headspin said:


> I do understand it. I have been tempted or lets say had it put on a plate for me and I had no problem in turning it down. I also understand the even harder thing well too - the 'close' friend that turns unknowingly into an ea and suddenly you realize this could be something more - you have not encouraged it but by just being yourself another woman has taken that as a green light and you can feel the shift in emotional intercourse. Believe me I know how easily this can happen even if you are not at first looking for it - BUT
> 
> That's the crux isn't it I said "at first" When at first suddenly becomes "now I know" what this is and can become then it's CHOICE that takes over the decision making.
> 
> ...


Exactly. With the one additional observation that if you know about these dangers you can watch for them, but not everyone knows.

One of the great things about TAM is you can learn form others mistakes, without having to repeat them for yourself.


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## kitty2013 (Dec 6, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Has anyone noticed that very few WS come to TAM? During my attempt at reconciliation, I visited several sites dealing with infidelity, and most of them have considerably more WS posters than we do. I wonder why that is? Are they being scared off by the pretty *obvious bias against WS*, that this site seems to exhibit?


I like this forum until I read one thread about a guy hitting his wife. He Physically ABUSED her and she cheated on him. A lot of people here (not all) talked to him in such a nice manner because* he is the BS. * They made him feel so much better because everything is his wife's fault. 

Some people here even feel happy when the OM getting beat up by the husband. Hitting people IS NEVER RIGHT unless it is self-defense. Would you feel happy when a horrible spouse being cheated on? That is very bias. This forum is an-ti cheating, which is wonderful. Cheating is never right regardless of what that the spouse does, how come some people here do not react the same way they feel about cheating with other type of abusive behaviors? Will this forum ever be a place where all kind of bad behaviors in a relationship being attacked just like cheating? (lazy spouse, non-communicating spouse,sexless spouse, abusive spouse, etc. because cheating and these behaviors all kill the relationship). 

P/S: I recognize some members here who are very wise, non-judgmental, and kind. I respect them and I would love to come for their advice.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Rookie4 said:


> ALL affairs are premeditated, every single one of them.


 At SOME point. Not the same for each person. For the serial-type cheater who believes everyone is there to be used, yes, he/she just goes out and looks for someone to cheat with. For the one-time cheater who was just treading water in life and someone starts paying attention to them, and their ego flutters like a dormant butterfly, it's possible that they are just enjoying the feelings and have no intention to do anything with it...until they want more. At THAT point, it becomes premeditated to keep the attention flowing, because they're addicted to the high. But they didn't wake up one day and say 'I'm gonna find someone to cheat with.' The latter have some chance at seeing the light and leading a better life afterward. The most integrity-laden person I ever met was a former cheater, who never set out to cheat, who learned from it and spent the rest of her life making everyone's lives better.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> It just happened?.........Really? The WS just happened to fall on somebody elses' D*ck or Pu**y? By accident? Waz, you say a lot of good things, but sometimes you say something particularly clueless, that has me wondering .
> ALL affairs are premeditated, every single one of them. Your wife, my wife , every WS, who ever cheated, thought about it beforehand. There is no such thing as spontaneous adultery.


Headspin put it perfectly. 

I guess the other thing affecting my world view, I am deeply religious, and have had very few sexual partners, my wife being the only one with whom I have had a full sexual experience. So I probably am naive about the mechanics of sexual seduction, since I had very little to do with that game.

So yes, for me understanding how sex can happen is probably not as clear as it is for a studly stallion such as yourself.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's true, though, that among other forums, TAM has a bad reputation for trashing people.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Temptation is perhaps the biggest excuse of all. That plus the ridiculous idea that adultery is an accident, a mistake, or spontaneous. Cheating is not a part of the Autonomic Nervous system, it isn't a reflex, it is a PLANNED activity..........period!


WE can agree to disagree.


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## kitty2013 (Dec 6, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> It just happened?.........Really? The WS just happened to fall on somebody elses' D*ck or Pu**y? By accident? Waz, you say a lot of good things, but sometimes you say something particularly clueless, that has me wondering .
> *ALL affairs are premeditated, every single one of them. Your wife, my wife , every WS, who ever cheated, thought about it beforehand. There is no such thing as spontaneous adultery*.


Even with the emotionally affair? It is still cheating. 
The attraction that you feel for someone is premeditated? 
I agree with your point about the PA, but I don't see how the EA can be a part of the plan.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Strange but true.*



Headspin said:


> Well yes imo you are actually
> 
> None of us are perfect - none of us can say with 100 % certainty we are not also responsible for the breakdown of a marriage. It does take two. However the balance of that is the arguable point. And whatever the balance of it is one thing IS 100% certain - _no problem in a marriage forced a wayward spouse to go out and look for alternative gratification with another man or woman_ whilst they were still married with a partner who was effectively giving their 'all' in as many ways as they could.
> One partner may fall short on some aspect of the marriage but as we know _that is never a reason for the other to commit adultery to destroy the lives_ of those people on that list I just mentioned above in my earlier post
> ...


We're going to have to agree to disagree. A lot of what you say resonates. But a lot of it, to me, is also patently wrong.

Its a journey. 

And everyone's is different. And not everyone feels that their life is ripped up forever. I was being a smartass with my other post, but I have no wish to mock any body's pain.

So respectfully you're going to have to trust me when I say some peoples lives get better when the dust settles. Either together or on their own.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Strange but true.*



2ntnuf said:


> Did you have a suggestion or were you just bashing?


I suggest that people own their sh!t.

That goes for waywards and betrayeds.

To remotely suggest that waywards deserve the treatment they get here, while stating they are in denial, or rug sweeping, or in the fog, or have thin skin, while the betrayed have every right to lambaste them whenever they choose is unacceptable.


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

kitty2013 said:


> Even with the emotionally affair? It is still cheating.
> The attraction that you feel for someone is premeditated?
> I agree with your point about the PA, but I don't see how the EA can be a part of the plan.


EA isn't just "feeling attraction for someone". whether that attraction results in EA or not depends on your actions. the right action would be to acknowledge the attraction and let it go. or at best use it to understand what's wrong with you and your relationship with your spouse to take the necessary steps to improve yourself and your relationship with your spouse.

but the usual response cheaters (potential cheaters) give is :
1- they start to call that attraction love.
2- they convince themselves they found their soul-mate.
3- they start to fantasize life with that person. a life where every problem in relationship is solved magically on it's own.
4- they start to create time in their timetable to interact/meet/chat/SMS with that person in order to make the fantasy more real.
5- there would be only a matter of time before it gets physical.
,......

in all of these phases the person is fully in control and aware of consequences of his/her choices. they just don't care. I know it's harsh but it's true.

everybody might feel attracted to a number of people in their daily lives but not all of them results in EA(s). so what do they do that people who engage in EA(s) don't? I believe they are mature enough to understand boundaries and they are mature enough to understand that responsible mature people don't act on feelings , emotions , attraction.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

kitty2013 said:


> This forum is an-ti cheating, which is wonderful. Cheating is never right regardless of what that the spouse does, how come some people here do not react the same way they feel about cheating with other type of abusive behaviors? Will this forum ever be a place where all kind of bad behaviors in a relationship being attacked just like cheating? (lazy spouse, non-communicating spouse,sexless spouse, abusive spouse, etc. because cheating and these behaviors all kill the relationship).


I don't think that you will ever get the same reaction for your other described types of "destructive" behaviors because of the nature of how they happen/occur. Lazy spouses, sexless marriages, and lack of communication are all relationship killers, true, but they are also something that both spouses are aware of, can see, and deal with directly. (I have purposely left physical abuse out, as that is something that people need to remove themselves from immediately and it is never something that should or can be dealt with over time like the others can.)

Comparing behaviors that are destructive to a marriage where both parties are aware and able to deal with it directly to behaviors that are secretive, hidden, and unaware to one party is not fair comparisons and the reason that cheating is held to a different regard and standard. With cheating the one spouse is unaware of the actions and just how destructive things are happening and being misled to believe that everything is fine and good. With the other behaviors, it is not hidden and known so it can be dealt with accordingly, which could mean separation if needed, and they also don't put the others health at risks they do with cheating issues. No one ever got a life threatening/ altering disease from being ignored or not having sex.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

user_zero said:


> EA isn't just "feeling attraction for someone". whether that attraction results in EA or not depends on your actions. the right action would be to acknowledge the attraction and let it go. or at best use it to understand what's wrong with you and your relationship with your spouse to take the necessary steps to improve yourself and your relationship with your spouse.
> 
> but the usual response cheaters (potential cheaters) give is :
> 1- they start to call that attraction love.
> ...



If only the cheaters could see, rationalize, and believe these truths, then maybe there wouldn't be as many as there are. Instead they make excuses and rationalize their behavior until it goes to far (being aware of what they are doing the entire time), and then in the end saying, I didn't realize that things were this bad.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Temptation is perhaps the biggest excuse of all. That plus the ridiculous idea that adultery is an accident, a mistake, or spontaneous. Cheating is not a part of the Autonomic Nervous system, it isn't a reflex, it is a PLANNED activity..........period!


Careful, don't want a WS to read this and run to the hills


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Deejo said:


> I suggest that people own their sh!t.
> 
> That goes for waywards and betrayeds.
> 
> To remotely suggest that waywards deserve the treatment they get here, while stating they are in denial, or rug sweeping, or in the fog, or have thin skin, while the betrayed have every right to lambaste them whenever they choose is unacceptable.


They don't deserve a real personal attack on here, I would agree there.

But if someone sees that they ARE in denial, rug sweeping, or in the fog, that is not to be pointed out in a non abrasive way?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I suggest that people own their sh!t.
> 
> That goes for waywards and betrayeds.
> 
> To remotely suggest that waywards deserve the treatment they get here, while stating they are in denial, or rug sweeping, or in the fog, or have thin skin, while the betrayed have every right to lambaste them whenever they choose is unacceptable.


Owning their own **** is a fair point. But if only.

However as I previously said infidelity is actually kind of unique in terms of it's breadth and all encompassing of every human emotion there is which is why perpetrators of it rarely "own their own ****" 

So how do we deal with that? Unfortunately one of the wayward counterattacks is to lie deceive trickle truth gaslight rugsweep themselves into an even deeper grave. The one natural place for a wayward to be is the entire opposite of owning their own ****.

What's the one thing that your wayward wife precisely did NOT do when cheating on you? - own her own ****.
Mine the same. How many of them did different? 

That Deejo is the the real problem with all this - the wayward does not instinctively feel they have any **** to own "you made me do it" "Yeah yeah yeah okay I'm sorry ..............but !! 
That's not my wife that's everybody else's too 

As I said I have so rarely seen a wayward come on here and from the off own it. You know they should, I do, any betrayed spouse who spends time here know's it's the default position of any proper true good reconciliation but do they ? 

The hell they do 

So what's to do then? just let them have that? let them play victim? 

I tend to stay out of them now I just admire their gall, their sheer front


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Deejo said:


> We're going to have to agree to disagree. A lot of what you say resonates. But a lot of it, to me, is also patently wrong.
> 
> Its a journey.
> 
> ...


Fair play

A question Deejo. In your experience on here, which must be vast, honestly how many, what you would deem long term successful reconciliations, have you witnessed ?

I would hazard if you can remember them singly it would tell us something about our inability to get through all this **** with the same person who perpetrated it all


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

vellocet said:


> They don't deserve a real personal attack on here, I would agree there.
> 
> But if someone sees that they ARE in denial, rug sweeping, or in the fog, that is not to be pointed out in a *non abrasive* way?


That term is doing a whole lot of lifting in your sentence.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Fair play
> 
> A question Deejo. In your experience on here, which must be vast, honestly how many, what you would deem long term successful reconciliations, have you witnessed ?
> 
> I would hazard if you can remember them singly it would tell us something about our inability to get through all this **** with the same person who perpetrated it all


That's the problem. Marriages these days seem doomed as family is not a major issue in the world, so reconciliation or not, if the issues that "supposedly" were the driving force behind the cheating are never fixed then the reconciliation/ marriage is doomed (I say supposedly, as both sides have rewritten the history after an A, so whom is really correct in their judgements is never fully revealed. Ask a WS and they generally don't think they were the cause of issues in the M but had tried to resolve the issues that they saw in the M prior to cheating, yet ask the BS and generally they will say that they had no clue and the marriage seemed fine with just modern day issues and problems that everyone has. Pile an A on this and this is the recipe for disaster.)


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

vellocet said:


> I agree. Here is the thing, and yes, I know I'm hard on cheaters, but will never take it to the personal attack arena. But there are WS's here who get it and are doing what needs to be done to make it up to their BS. WS's such as EI and Mrs. John Adams. WS's like that I think get even the most spirited BS's who are opinionated about cheating to listen and realize that there are WS's out there that do understand and take even the harsh comments to heart.



Thank you for the acknowledgement, vellocet, although being a WS who "got it" is not the legacy that I imagined I'd be leaving behind. I have, actually, tried very hard to "get it." What I've come to realize is that no matter how sorry I am for hurting B1 and our children, no matter how much I regret the deceptive, selfish, and immoral decisions that defined my affair, no matter how much those choices hurt, not only my family, but myself, as well; knowing that and acknowledging that........ does not make the, sometimes, nearly, incapacitating hurt, that we ALL feel, stop hurting. 

B1 and our children love me and have forgiven me for betraying them. And, I love my family and have forgiven B1 for the many years that he emotionally and physically neglected me, despite my repeated attempts to persuade him to work with me on repairing our marriage. He not only refused to work with me on improving our marriage, he also refused to address some personal issues of his own that I had no control over, nor would he acknowledge the work that I was doing to repair things on "my side of the road," all in an effort to improve, both, myself, and our marriage. Whether it's a popular theme on TAM, or not, I have never shied away from telling the truth as I see it, and as I feel it, at any given time. Even when my version of the truth is not what others want to hear. By being truthful, I have demonstrated one of the single most important lessons that the TAM community strives to drive home, every single day. I am being 100% transparent, with my words, my thoughts, and my deeds. Anyone can say "the right" words, but words spoken, without truth, are meaningless, at best, and very harmful and destructive, at worst.

My point is; true remorse, true regret, and a genuine desire to make amends by understanding what your BS needs from you, in order for their healing to begin, is NOT something that can be forced, demanded, or coerced from your WS. Trying to force certain words and behaviors from your WS is often the way False R's begin. Does a BS, who wishes to reconcile, want their former WS to "say" the right words, or to "feel" the right feelings? Do they want to hear only what they want to hear, or do they want to hear the truth..... the truth, as their WS perceives it to be? You see, I feel very differently, now, than I did 20 months ago. But, that is because B1 and I have "both" worked on our marriage, and on ourselves, as individuals. Because, the truth is, like it or not, we both had work to do if there was to be ANY hope of reconciliation. Our marriage had become a cesspool of misery a long time before my A. Now, that did NOT justify my affair. I KNOW that, NOW, beyond any shadow of any doubt. But, 20 months ago, I wasn't there, YET. That's when I arrived in TAMland.

There are a few posters who, repeatedly, insist that unless a WS arrives in TAMland and immediately declares their remorse, regret, and willingness, if not eagerness, to prostrate themselves before the feet of the almighty BS's of TAM, that they are unworthy of being treated with common courtesy, are beyond redemption, and are undeserving of the 'opportunity' to present "their side of the story," even on an anonymous and free Internet forum. The truth is, very few WS's whose A's have recently been discovered vs. those who have confessed of their own free will, are going be feeling an immediate sense of remorse, regret, and a desire to make amends. Because, my truth, as is often stated by many BS's on TAM, is that WS's cheat because they want to. I know that's why I did it. I'll admit, as I have from day one, that my A didn't "just happen." It wasn't a mistake, an accident, or something that I didn't see coming. I wasn't "played," taken advantage of, and I didn't fall into it because I was vulnerable and naive. I was vulnerable, but I wasn't naive. I knew that I was going to have an A, even before I knew who I was going to have an A with. My A was my choice. Now, I fully comprehend how destructive, devastating and wrong that choice was. Then, I made a conscious choice to have an affair, and I made another choice not to dwell on the potential of any future negative consequences. 

With that being said, is it realistic to believe that 2 1/2 weeks after D-Day, that I would honestly be feeling remorseful, regretful and humbled? I was none of those things, in fact, I was pi$$ed as Hell. I was angry, defensive, and defiant. At that time, I felt completely justified and entitled in having the A and I was not in any state of mind to accept that my affair was 100% my fault and that it was strictly MY job to do the heavy lifting if we were going to have any hope of reconciling. Yet, that is EXACTLY what certain BS's demand from newly arriving WS's. But, they also demand honesty and transparency, all without trickle truth. So, I'm asking, what do you REALLY want? Do you want the truth (as your WS sees it) or do you only want to hear what you want to hear? Because, the reality is, in the immediate aftermath of infidelity, the truth, as your WS perceives it, at the time, is NOT going to be what you want to hear. Otherwise, why would the WS have been having the A in the first place?

After D-Day, May 27th, 2012, because my BS loved me, because he knew that he wanted to attempt to reconcile with me, because he realized that he had lost me, and because he knew that he had contributed greatly to my suffering and vulnerability, pre-A, he chose to disregard a great deal of what was told to him by many of the posters on TAM. He chose NOT to be punitive. But, he DID NOT roll over and play dead. In fact, I saw a stronger, more determined side of him than I had EVER seen before. He was VERY CLEAR about what he would and what he would not tolerate. But, he also understood that while he could make it difficult, if not impossible, for me to "do" certain things, he could not control how I felt. He didn't want to simply control my actions, his desire was to win back my heart. THIS is where the "understanding," that WS's are often criticized, on TAM, for seeking, comes in. While there is NO justification for an A, there ARE always reasons. If the BS knows that the "reasons" that their WS is stating, as "justification" for cheating, are valid issues that the BS was made aware of, pre-A, yet refused to address, then, IF they wish to reconcile, they will have to address those issues. 

I used to become very defensive when BS's (and others) declared that ALL WS's were flawed. Well, no $hit Sherlock, you're right. And guess what, so are you, and you, and you. If you're wondering if I am talking about YOU, I am. We're ALL flawed. Every single one of us. My husband's emotional and physical neglect of me, did not force me to cheat. Nor was it a justification for me to do so. My husband's long term emotional and physical neglect, along with his refusal to make any real or sustained efforts to work with me, and his insistence that I "accept our lot in life," left me in an extremely vulnerable, hopeless, depressed, defeated, bitter, and broken state of mind. It was in that state of mind, that this very flawed human being *chose* to surrender my integrity, my values, and my character, for the quickest and easiest measure of relief, respite, and happiness, however wrong I knew it was, that I could find. 

It was then, that my strong, loving, forgiving, selfless, generous, merciful, and compassionate husband, chose to dig deep, and made a decision that opened the door to the beginning of our journey towards healing, which ultimately, led to a our reconciliation. *B1 decided to meet me where I was* and NOT where TAM insisted that I should be. And, where I was, was just 2 1/2 weeks removed from D-Day, in what was a 15 month EA/PA. I had abandoned the marriage. I was no longer in love with B1. But, he knew that he had emotionally and physically abandoned me long before my A. He never even noticed that I had finally let go, as well..... not until about 10 days before D-Day. I hadn't been leading B1 on, telling him that I loved him, pretending to be happy, or even sleeping in his bed. And, I certainly wasn't putting his physical health at risk, we hadn't slept together in well over a year. Because, when I stopped initiating, there was no more sex, ever. That was a long time before my A began.

In choosing to meet me where I was, B1 allowed me to be 100% transparent without the fear of having to live in a more hostile environment. We, both, began to show genuine compassion for one another. Then, we began to feel true empathy for one another. That compassion, led to passion, and that passion reignited our love. 

I wasn't psychologically in this place 20 months ago. I came to TAM in search of direction, healing, answers, and a desire to honestly understand myself better. More than anything, I wanted to know how to best help my BS heal. I was no longer in love with him, but he was my husband, the father of my children, and a man that I had known, and once loved, very deeply, for many, many years. I could see that he was hurting, too, although I didn't understand it, at the time. I was angry and resentful that he was only willing or able to demonstrate his love for me after I had long since given up. We were both grieving and, at that point, all we had was each other. 

Not one single TAMer, NOT ONE, who chose to say disparaging things about my character, rather than about my choices, added to the success of our reconciliation in ANY way. When certain posters say that they are simply trying to help WS's understand and own the magnitude of their actions, and then suggest that they are entitled to hurl cruel accusations, which are often incorrect, they are not revealing the character of the WS, they are revealing their own flawed character. BS's are no more "entitled" to verbally assault WS's than WS's are "entitled" to cheat. If I, as a WS, am required to own my $hit (and I do, now) and I am not entitled to blame shift my choices, for ANY reason, on the actions of my BS, or anyone else, then it should go without saying, that no one else, not even a BS, can blame shift their choices, words, actions and responses, on anyone else, either. Not even their WS.

It was the BS's, on TAM, who were kind enough to openly, and honestly, share their pain filled stories of heartbreak and betrayal, without seeking to further break down my already broken spirit, whom B1 and I credit with paving the road and giving us a map to follow on our journey towards healing and reconciliation. It was then that the Reconciliation thread was created. It soon became a welcoming gathering place for, both, BS's and WS's, as well as many other wonderful individuals, who were like-minded in believing that helping, healing, learning, growing, and sharing was a far more healthy, rewarding, and successful approach to "Coping with Infidelity" than simply condemning the WS's.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

[


> SIZE="4"]
> Quote of EI
> 
> 
> Not one single TAMer, NOT ONE, who chose to say disparaging things about my character, rather than about my choices, added to the success of our reconciliation in ANY way. When certain posters say that they are simply trying to help WS's understand and own the magnitude of their actions, and then suggest that they are entitled to hurl cruel accusations, which are often incorrect, they are not revealing the character of the WS, they are revealing their own flawed character. BS's are no more "entitled" to verbally assault WS's than WS's are "entitled" to cheat. If I, as a WS, am required to own my $hit (and I do, now) and I am not entitled to blame shift my choices, for ANY reason, on the actions of my BS, or anyone else, then it should go without saying, that no one else, not even a BS, can blame shift their choices, words, actions and responses, on anyone else, either. Not even their WS.


This should be a sticky!!


Great Post EI, as always[/SIZE]


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

I take my previous post back

EI's WHOLE post should be a sticky!!!


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Headspin put it perfectly.
> 
> I guess the other thing affecting my world view, I am deeply religious, and have had very few sexual partners, my wife being the only one with whom I have had a full sexual experience. So I probably am naive about the mechanics of sexual seduction, since I had very little to do with that game.
> 
> So yes, for me understanding how sex can happen is probably not as clear as it is for a studly stallion such as yourself.


 You cannot seduce those who are not receptive to seduction. There would never have been an affair, if BOTH our wives had not been consciously receptive to it, voluntarily participated in it, and considered it a viable activity. Your idea that your wife's affair was just some kind of accident and that she was somehow a victim of circumstances, partially beyond her control, is dangerous , delusional , and false.
The main difference between us, Wazza, is that you believe that WS's are as much victim , as perpitrator, while I believe the opposite.
As far as being a "studly stallion" I'm more a "lucky dumba**". I have been the fortunate recipient of female attention, far more than I ever was the intentional pursuer. But even then, I STILL knew what was happening, and willingly participated. LOL


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> WE can agree to disagree.


Yes we can. Both of us can agree that you are wrong and I am right. Wazza, there are, simply put, some things that admit to only one definition, and can't be defined by consensus, or political correctness. There never has been, is not now, and never will be, an accidental affair. Or an unconscious cheater.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

kitty2013 said:


> Even with the emotionally affair? It is still cheating.
> The attraction that you feel for someone is premeditated?
> I agree with your point about the PA, but I don't see how the EA can be a part of the plan.


The same goes for EA's, the WS chooses to participate.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Careful, don't want a WS to read this and run to the hills


No danger of that. Most WS's already know it. Plus it was a general statement, not an accusation.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Yes we can. Both of us can agree that you are wrong and I am right. Wazza, there are, simply put, some things that admit to only one definition, and can't be defined by consensus, or political correctness. There never has been, is not now, and never will be, an accidental affair. Or an unconscious cheater.


Of course you are right. And anyone thinking otherwise is blameshifting and making excuses for the cheating. 

This is a pattern with guys who reconcile. 

These excuses make it easier to keep some self-respect.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I think that a lot of it stems from the inability of the BS to admit that the person who cheated and the person that they married , are one and the same. Plus , the obvious self-esteem issues of not being "man" enough to keep your woman, or "woman" enough to keep your man. In this respect, excuses made by the WS are believed, and the BS will often make excuses FOR the WS.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> You cannot seduce those who are not receptive to seduction. There would never have been an affair, if BOTH our wives had not been consciously receptive to it, voluntarily participated in it, and considered it a viable activity. Your idea that your wife's affair was just some kind of accident and that she was somehow a victim of circumstances, partially beyond her control, is dangerous , delusional , and false.
> The main difference between us, Wazza, is that you believe that WS's are as much victim , as perpitrator, while I believe the opposite.
> As far as being a "studly stallion" I'm more a "lucky dumba**". I have been the fortunate recipient of female attention, far more than I ever was the intentional pursuer. But even then, I STILL knew what was happening, and willingly participated. LOL


Had female attention. Also had self control.

I agree my wife was receptive to seduction. I am not saying it was an accident. I do not in general believe WS's are victims. 

If you think I am saying that, you are not understanding my point.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

illwill said:


> Of course you are right. And anyone thinking otherwise is blameshifting and making excuses for the cheating.
> 
> This is a pattern with guys who reconcile.
> 
> These excuses make it easier to keep some self-respect.


Nonsense.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Just for fun, please come up with a list of totally valid reasons you believe you could have used to cheat. Then come up with and explanation, in each instance, why you chose not to cheat.


I don't believe there are valid reasons for cheating. That is not what I said.




2ntnuf said:


> I'm sorry for you two. I don't believe she could not drop out of a particular course. She would have had to make some huge sacrifice. It would have involved placing you and the marriage higher in worth, than the class she was taking. It would have meant a choice would have to be made, a very difficult choice. It would be akin to risking your life for another. It could have been done and she could have finished her degree, somehow, someway. It was easier to risk her marriage, because she believed she would be forgiven, and maybe even be able to get more understanding attention from the teacher and therefor understand a subject she was struggling with, than to find another class and instructor that was acceptable and start that class over. It would have tainted her reputation with the school because the teacher would have said she was not cooperative and might have caused her issues when searching for a job. After all, the school educators are her references and experience for her first job and more, until she gets real experience. It's almost a rape situation that she allowed to happen. Who should pay for that? Someone in this instance is horribly abusive and considers themselves more important than anything in the life of their students. This person is not setting a good example for their students.


My point was that the idea of doing it never even occurred to us. Whether we could afford the cost is an interesting question....I am not sure, but it's moot, because we never thought of it. Therefore to paint it as a lack of sacrifice on her part is wrong.



2ntnuf said:


> So you did what your wife could not do? You are a good man. Now, on the other hand, do you think your wife would have been able to forgive you. Turn it around. You were hurt from your wife's cheating. You were in a weakened state. You had to keep your job. You could not get the same pay somewhere else because that coworker might have talked about you to the boss in confidence. You boss might be angry that you left and not understand. You may not have been able to provide for your family and could have lost your home and your family, in the process. Wouldn't it have been easier to just cheat a couple of times with that coworker and then break it off with a, well, we are not compatible for this reason and that?


My wife, believed, wrongly, that I had had a revenge affair, and she accepted it. Never mentioned it at the time, I only found out years later.

I did what she could not do because I learned from her mistakes.



2ntnuf said:


> What makes you think the decision to cheat will not come back? What makes you think there will not be other very tough circumstances that require a choice, a decision that is very tough to make?


It could happen. I acknowledge that fairly regularly.



2ntnuf said:


> It's tough to make a stand, and be standing on a fence, while doing it.


Curios how I am standing on a fence.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Strange but true.*



Headspin said:


> Fair play
> 
> A question Deejo. In your experience on here, which must be vast, honestly how many, what you would deem long term successful reconciliations, have you witnessed ?
> 
> I would hazard if you can remember them singly it would tell us something about our inability to get through all this **** with the same person who perpetrated it all


I don't see reconciliation as the only or preferred outcome.

Headspin, most people come here, emotionally vomit for a few months, and then stop posting. Its cathartic ... but can also be unreasonably emotional. Thus the need for moderators.

There have been enough reconciliations to give those desiring to do so, hope. Lots of those people continue to post here.

Converesely I have read threads where waywards have treated the betrayed like absolute garbage. Evil and malicious. Falsifying police reports, restraining orders, vandalizing the home, stealing, openly mocking their spouse with their AP, parental alienation of children, and physical violence. All perpetrated by the people who took a vow to love, honor and cherish you for all time.

My own ex-spouse told lies to my face that would make a politician blush.

That was six years ago. Things are different now. I do believe she has owned her stuff. I have certainly owned mine. Neither of us can imagine the people we were caught up in being 6 years ago.

I'm glad she did the work. It benefits her, our children and me. But I have no investment in whether she did it or not. I certainly have no control over the timeframe, nor do you, when someone 'gets it'. They may never 'get it'. And that's on them.

My point is the same holds true for betrayeds. The end of a marriage is tragic. But whether or not they choose to heal, move on and succeed with their life, or focus and hang onto the hurt and betrayal, is also ... on them.

If someone on the forum isn't open to taking a hard look, or rejects the support or recommendations given ... doesn't mean its then open season.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Strange but true.*



2ntnuf said:


> Are you accusing me of remotely suggesting that betrayed spouses bash waywards? Please cite specific examples, not remote suggestions.


Not accusing you of anything. Post wasnt directed at you.

And as I said in a response to Headspin, we have no control over when, or whether or not, either a betrayed or wayward owns their sh!t.

Hell when I came here back in 08 I laid ALL of our problems at my ex's feet. And we had BIG, divorce worthy problems prior to infidelity coming into the picture. 

I no longer believe what I firmly believed back then.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

EI said:


> yada yada.


Ugh.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Fenix said:


> EI, thank you so much for taking the time to share your thoughts. While I may not agree with everything you wrote, it is always helpful to gain some insight into the mind of a WS.


Thank you, Fenix, that was very kind for you to say! Like you, I think that treating one another with simple courtesy, enables both BS's and WS's to share their thoughts in a way that is mutually beneficial. 



Edited to add: As you may now see, it is extremely rude and inappropriate to give the appearance of "quoting" someone while removing their entire quote and replacing it with words of your own. A simple "ugh" would have sufficed. Or, hey, you could always simply "ignore" posts that you don't agree with. I do it quite often.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I am really starting to like the FWWs who stick around a WHOLE lot more than the BSs who can't see that not everything is about THEIR relationship. Sometimes I secretly wonder if they weren't exactly marriage material themselves and wonder why their cheating spouse didn't get out sooner.

Most folks mellow over time. Start to put their lives back on track. Employ perspective. Want the best for others even if R didn't work for them. They feel pain but dont become pain.

Others need serious therapy. I'm losing patience with their inability to bow out when they aren't helping. 

I really expected a ban yesterday, in fact.

I think damaged BSs harm TAM's ability to do good. I also think being on TAM is seriously bad for people who haven't figured out how to move forward.

We should encourage the use of the ignore feature to all waywards. With the caveat that using it to ignore what they know in their heart is right doesn't work. The heart knows. You can't escape yoitself, try as you may.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

EI said:


> Thank you, Fenix, that was very kind for you to say! Like you, I think that treating one another with simple courtesy, enables both BS's and WS's to share their thoughts in a way that is mutually beneficial.
> 
> 
> 
> Edited to add: As you may now see, it is extremely rude and inappropriate to give the appearance of "quoting" someone while removing their entire quote and replacing it with words of your own. A simple "ugh" would have sufficed. Or, hey, you could always simply "ignore" posts that you don't agree with. I do it quite often.


Your post struck me as very different than Mrs. JA's from yesterday. Very. I just read through it again and it still strikes me as filled with rationalizations and excuses. 

And yes, I could've chosen to ignore it. But I didn't. I just hope that you don't stray again. Your dh and family deserve better (than a second affair).


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Fenix...first of all...we are all different. We come from different places and different situations. E1 and I have only one thing in common...we both betrayed our husbands....well maybe two...we are both blondes. So her story is not my story...and to compare them is not fair to either of us. She is a remarkable lady.
> 
> we hope we all have the same ending....
> 
> Predicting someone's fate is probably not a good thing to do.


No, I actually came back to edit it. I honestly hope you both do have happy endings.


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Fenix said:


> Your post struck me as very different than Mrs. JA's from yesterday. Very. I just read through it again and it still strikes me as filled with rationalizations and excuses.
> 
> And yes, I could've chosen to ignore it. But I didn't. I just hope that you don't stray again. Your dh and family deserve better (than a second affair).


I think when someone is in your shoes, the truth will come across as rationalizations and excuses. I can tell you first hand that EI's post is spot on about us. It's our truth, our story, and it's exactly what happened and it's how it happened.

That, to a bitter, angry, bs will seem like excuses. I don't know your story but I saw your profile and it sounds like you have very good reason to be angry, hurt and bitter.
But not all ws are the same, just like all BS are not the same, and all stories are not the same. Certain people have always had a problem with EI when she tells our story. Facts are facts...I neglected and she cheated, no excuses, no justification, she shouldn't have done it, and I should have worked on our marriage when she was begging me to. 

Again she owns her A and will she stray again, No, I am certain of that. Will I shut down and neglect her again, No, I am certain of that. If I did,she flat out says she would divorce this time around. What she did devastated not just me, but her too. She grew and learned from her bad choices, she will not repeat them, nor will I repeat my bad choices.

I'm sorry you are where your are, it truly sucks, I know. It hurts beyond anything I have ever experienced. But, for me, it got better with time and with EI's support. As we grew closer and talked through all our pain, as we made amends and learned to love and trust again, things got better, much better. 

Btw..we are quickly approaching that happy ending.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

B1 said:


> Btw..we are quickly approaching that happy ending.


What exactly does it look like, B1?


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Fenix said:


> Your post struck me as very different than Mrs. JA's from yesterday. Very. I just read through it again and it still strikes me as filled with rationalizations and excuses.
> 
> And yes, I could've chosen to ignore it. But I didn't. I just hope that you don't stray again. Your dh and family deserve better (than a second affair).


You are absolutely 100% correct, and I mean that with ALL sincerity. My husband and children did deserve so much better from me. I even deserved better from myself. Though you, and many others, see my comments as an attempt to rationalize my affair, I see them as an attempt to provide all of the pieces to the puzzle. When I say that I, too, deserved better from my husband, prior to my A, you see that as an attempt to rationalize my affair. But, I see it as transparency and honesty. Because, that is honestly what I believe. It's what I know. I only know one way to share my story. I share it the way I saw it, felt it, understood it, and experienced it, at the time, from my perspective. The affair can not be undone. I can not rationalize it away. It happened. In order to heal and move forward, whether together or separately, my BS needed and deserved to understand what I was thinking before and during my A. 

By digging deep within ourselves and being honest with one another, even when the honesty hurts, my husband and I have both been able to identify and explore our weaknesses. But, that has also given us an opportunity to discover our greatest strengths. And, after nearly 30 years of marriage, we are discovering and enjoying things with each other that we never thought possible just a few years ago. 

I only wish that we had gotten to the place we are, now, without ever having gone to the place we were, then. I don't think our marriage is better BECAUSE of my affair. I truly, truly, HATE what I did. Infidelity solves NOTHING. The damage is far reaching and incalculable. I do think our marriage is stronger, happier, and more rewarding today than it has ever been. But, it's despite my affair, not because of it. It's better because of the tremendous amount of work that we have both done on ourselves, and on our relationship, during the last 20 months.

Thanks you for wishing us well. I sincerely hope you find peace and healing, as well.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Philat said:


> What exactly does it look like, B1?



I think B1 means that our happy ending looks something like this:


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Philat said:


> What exactly does it look like, B1?


It looks normal. You find that Your mind is occupied by something other than the A.
Your not constantly in pain, your not hurting and walking around with a big lump in your throat. You don't have the need to ask more questions, to dig and dig for more and more answers. You find yourself going for days without thinking about it. You feel love again, real heartfelt love and compassion, and passion. 

For me, and I know this is just me, You begin to see and understand why your ws did what they did. It does not excuse it, it doesn't help with the pain, but I simply understand her and the why. Again, many will never get that, the why, or understand it. However, I do. 

I love her so very much, I forgive her, and that's sort of what it looks like to me.

Oh and let's not forget, we are renewing our vows in June, that's a nice part of a happy ending, or shall we say a new beginning.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

B1 said:


> It looks normal. You find that Your mind is occupied by something other than the A.
> Your not constantly in pain, your not hurting and walking around with a big lump in your throat. You don't have the need to ask more questions, to dig and dig for more and more answers. You find yourself going for days without thinking about it. You feel love again, real heartfelt love and compassion, and passion.
> 
> For me, and I know this is just me, You begin to see and understand why your ws did what they did. It does not excuse it, it doesn't help with the pain, but I simply understand her and the why. Again, many will never get that, the why, or understand it. However, I do.
> ...


Thanks, B1. We're getting there too. I think understanding the context in which the affair happened is important not to excuse, explain or justify it, but to arm oneself to prevent a recurrence. Notice I didn't say "why the affair happened." It happened because my W chose to make it happen, pure and simple. But she did so within a certain context (the state of our relationship).


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> Fenix, if you are really trying to help EI and B1 you have no tact at all.
> Are you spewing your bitterness because of your situation onto E1 and B1?
> Saying that you would not be surprised if EI strays again is cruel
> 
> EI and B1 have over 18 months of very successful R. Just because your situation turned out different you do not have to be cruel.


Mr. Blunt, I edited it. It came out more harshly than I intended. Eighteen months of R is still too early to be called successful. I honestly hope it is though.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

EI said:


> You are absolutely 100% correct, and I mean that with ALL sincerity. My husband and children did deserve so much better from me. I even deserved better from myself. Though you, and many others, see my comments as an attempt to rationalize my affair, I see them as an attempt to provide all of the pieces to the puzzle. When I say that I, too, deserved better from my husband, prior to my A, you see that as an attempt to rationalize my affair. But, I see it as transparency and honesty. Because, that is honestly what I believe. It's what I know. I only know one way to share my story. I share it the way I saw it, felt it, understood it, and experienced it, at the time, from my perspective. The affair can not be undone. I can not rationalize it away. It happened. In order to heal and move forward, whether together or separately, my BS needed and deserved to understand what I was thinking before and during my A.
> 
> By digging deep within ourselves and being honest with one another, even when the honesty hurts, my husband and I have both been able to identify and explore our weaknesses. But, that has also given us an opportunity to discover our greatest strengths. And, after nearly 30 years of marriage, we are discovering and enjoying things with each other that we never thought possible just a few years ago.
> 
> ...



Ah, this rings so much truer to me.  I know my own situation. I don't know anyone else's. What I responded to initially in your post were some very significant things. Your dh's post and this one are sweet. I wish you and your family the best.

FWIW, I am only hard on the serial cheaters. So, while your dh may have felt justified about calling me bitter...the truth is I am only bitter toward one person...only a bit cynical toward others.


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

I came to TAM to find courage and wisdom to tackle a problem in my marriage--not infidelity, but a precursor if left unaddressed. I found much inspiration in many of the threads here, and it has already made a difference for me. I am deeply and hubly grateful to those who have shared their stories, often through great pain, to help strangers like me.

But this is not one of those threads, or isn't now--the anger here is painful to witness, and empathy seems in short supply.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> I am really starting to like the FWWs who stick around a WHOLE lot more than the BSs who can't see that not everything is about THEIR relationship. Sometimes I secretly wonder if they weren't exactly marriage material themselves and wonder why their cheating spouse didn't get out sooner.
> 
> Most folks mellow over time. Start to put their lives back on track. Employ perspective. Want the best for others even if R didn't work for them. They feel pain but dont become pain.
> 
> ...


Stop insulting betrayed spouses. Who are you to judge how someone deals with this crap? And to hint that someone "was not marriage material" and should have been cheated on earlier is beyond insulting. As if they deserved it.

Really?

You have to consider how they were BEFORE they were cheated on.

The way betrayed spouses react here, gives waywards a good sense of the pain and long term damage and utter horror of the actions they did.

There is a great value there. I do not support abuse, but i do support understanding the long term damage done to the betrayed.

I respect the he!! out of waywards like EI, but i can also respect the pain some on here have and are still dealing with. 

You can do both. And if you cannot maybe you are the one that should bow out.

Oh, and have you been cheated on?


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## brokeneric (Jan 27, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> I am really starting to like the FWWs who stick around a WHOLE lot more than the BSs who can't see that not everything is about THEIR relationship. Sometimes I secretly wonder if they weren't exactly marriage material themselves and wonder why their cheating spouse didn't get out sooner. *No arguments there. But FWW should have just got out and choose not to cheat*.
> 
> Most folks mellow over time. Start to put their lives back on track. Employ perspective. Want the best for others even if R didn't work for them. They feel pain but dont become pain.
> * I agree.*
> ...


----------



## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I completely agree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, I don't blame myself at all. When I said I neglected and she cheated I was simply breaking it down to the bare essentials. It wasn't I neglected so she cheated, like it was my fault. I don't take the blame for her choice, I do take the blame for neglecting her and pushing her away. I left her alone and vulnerable. But, her choice to cheat is on her 100%. I take no blame in that. It's funny though, in the beginning of our R, that was a very hot topic, it took EI a little while to take that blame on.

We were never separated, and sex wasn't on my agenda at all. I suffered from low t and my sex drive was non existent....well until I started taking t-shots.
So, no I had not had sex with anyone else. EI has been my only sexual partner since I was 17 years old. Yes, There is a little sting in writing that, for obvious reasons. 

And yes, I got what you meant...and thank you


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

EI said:


> You are absolutely 100% correct, and I mean that with ALL sincerity. My husband and children did deserve so much better from me. I even deserved better from myself. Though you, and many others, see my comments as an attempt to rationalize my affair, I see them as an attempt to provide all of the pieces to the puzzle. *When I say that I, too, deserved better from my husband, prior to my A, you see that as an attempt to rationalize my affair. But, I see it as transparency and honesty. Because, that is honestly what I believe. It's what I know. I only know one way to share my story. I share it the way I saw it, felt it, understood it, and experienced it, at the time, from my perspective.* The affair can not be undone. I can not rationalize it away. It happened. In order to heal and move forward, whether together or separately, my BS needed and deserved to understand what I was thinking before and during my A.
> 
> By digging deep within ourselves and being honest with one another, even when the honesty hurts, my husband and I have both been able to identify and explore our weaknesses. But, that has also given us an opportunity to discover our greatest strengths. And, after nearly 30 years of marriage, we are discovering and enjoying things with each other that we never thought possible just a few years ago.
> 
> ...


Yes but that was then and now is now. When I see your story I always feel you are rationalizing your affair because you always mention that side of it every time. That's how it comes across to me - every time 

I have grown to respect you more than most waywards in many ways but sadly that bit is I feel something that never leaves you. 

Again I'm not looking at fighting with you and maybe my view sits very uneasily with you but once again I'll say my view is valid that you should consider because as a betrayed spouse who has been through the same as many your views on this do resonate as blameshifting to a degree

Sorry but for me it does


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Originally Posted by EI *
> You are absolutely 100% correct, and I mean that with ALL sincerity. My husband and children did deserve so much better from me. I even deserved better from myself. Though you, and many others, see my comments as an attempt to rationalize my affair, I see them as an attempt to provide all of the pieces to the puzzle. *When I say that I, too, deserved better from my husband, prior to my A, you see that as an attempt to rationalize my affair. But, I see it as transparency and honesty. Because, that is honestly what I believe. It's what I know. I only know one way to share my story. I share it the way I saw it, felt it, understood it, and experienced it, at the time, from my perspective*. The affair can not be undone. I can not rationalize it away. It happened. In order to heal and move forward, whether together or separately, my BS needed and deserved to understand what I was thinking before and during my A.
> 
> By digging deep within ourselves and being honest with one another, even when the honesty hurts, my husband and I have both been able to identify and explore our weaknesses. But, that has also given us an opportunity to discover our greatest strengths. And, after nearly 30 years of marriage, we are discovering and enjoying things with each other that we never thought possible just a few years ago.
> ...




Headspin
You have almost 1000 posts on Tam so I know that you are familiar with posts. *Why did you just post part of EI’s post and leave out the part that proves you are wrong?*

Here below is part of EI’s post that you failed to post



> BY EI
> My husband's emotional and physical neglect of me, did not force me to cheat. Nor was it a justification for me to do so


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Headspin
> You have almost 1000 posts on Tam so I know that you are familiar with posts. *Why did you just post part of EI’s post and leave out the part that proves you are wrong?*
> 
> Here below is part of EI’s post that you failed to post


Because she mentions her husbands shortcomings every single occasion I've seen. There's never "I cheated and I'm wholly responsible for that" period - there's always a 'qualification' there's always an element of "but" in her posts and that I simply never accept from any wayward. 

Listen I know how popular the lady is and fair play for that but sorry I find that wrong.

Like anybody does not have to agree with me I also don't have to agree with everybody else even if it goes somewhat against the grain 

Sorry but that's how I see it


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Isn't it also wrong of you to cherry pick in a way that deliberately misleads anyone who didn't read her original post? What you did is a form of dishonesty. It raises questions about your character and your motivation.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Isn't it also wrong of you to cherry pick in a way that deliberately misleads anyone who didn't read her original post? What you did is a form of dishonesty. It raises questions about your character and your motivation.


Is that to me ?

If it is what on earth are you talking about 

Every time I see her story in different threads it always plays out as I say and maybe just me but does not sit well with me 

My opinion 

Misleading who? when? how?

This is a discussion forum and for me to be doing what you say I'd need an agenda ?

God knows what about but I'm sure you'll supply one


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Exactly.

It misrepresent the story for your own purposes.

It is dishonest.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Yes but that was then and now is now. When I see your story I always feel you are rationalizing your affair because you always mention that side of it every time. That's how it comes across to me - every time
> 
> I have grown to respect you more than most waywards in many ways but sadly that bit is I feel something that never leaves you.
> 
> ...


I've read the remainder of the posts on this thread, so my comments might reflect on some of the other poster's comments, as well, but I am "quoting" this one because I want to speak directly to you regarding your position that I continue to blame shift the responsibility, for my decision to have an affair, onto my BS. You are correct when you state that I, very often, reiterate my story in its entirety. When I'm posting in the Reconciliation thread, I no longer feel the need to summarize our story in such great detail with every post because I believe that most of the readers of the R thread are already well versed in the whole backstory that precedes my affair. But, when I post on other threads I think there is always a possibility that there may be someone who is reading who has not read our story and who does not know the details. 

I want you to understand something. I HATE WHAT I DID. It was horribly wrong. The devastation that an affair causes to the BS, their children, their extended family, their friends, and the WS's, themselves, is so far reaching, so life altering and so damaging that it is hard to imagine how or why ANYONE would EVER choose to do something so horribly wrong. Yet, it happens over, and over, and over, again. I don't know the statistics, but we all know that it happens in very high numbers. Unfortunately, that represents a lot of hurting people. I don't have all of the answers. I didn't have ANY of the answers when I first got here. What I do know is that if I can say, or do, or share, ANYTHING that might prevent even one person from making the same horrible choice that I made, then I want to try.

I am NOT where I was three years ago. I do see things differently, now. But, Headspin, there are a lot of hurting and broken people who are out there. There are a lot of people who, right now, feel just as hurt, broken, bitter, angry, and hopeless, as I did, 3 years ago, right before my A began. How can I reach them? How can I make a difference? Is there ANYTHING that I could say that might persuade someone to make a different choice. I have asked myself that question a million times. What could someone have said to me that would have reached me before the damage was done? There is a quote, "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care." I believe that people are most influenced by those whom they feel they can identify with. I think we all yearn to be understood. I think "my" specific experience with infidelity provides me with a greater likelihood of reaching a potential WS, women in particular, than "yours" does. I think that people often feel that their situation, their pain and their suffering is unique. I believe that when I share the extreme depth of my feelings of anger, hopelessness, and resentment towards my spouse, pre-A, and then I list every complaint, every frustration and every disappointment; along with my failed efforts to persuade my husband to work on our marriage....... followed in great detail by my heartbreak, my devastation, my self-loathing, and the realization that I have sentenced my spouse, my children, and myself to a nearly insurmountable blow, that just maybe someone, who is just as miserable as I was, might see themselves in me and STOP, before it's too late. I'm actually trying to save myself. Do you understand what I mean? 

I swear that I hate infidelity as much as you do. But, condemning and judging WS's, after they fact, does nothing to assist them in their own healing. Healing that is going to be absolutely essential if they are to be of any value in helping their BS's, and their children, heal from their betrayal. But, how much greater would it be if we were able to reach people BEFORE the infidelity? I share my story, on various threads, repeatedly, and in great detail, not in an attempt to justify my choices, but in an effort to reach ANYONE who may be reading, and who is where I was BEFORE I made the worst decision of my life. I hope that if they can see themselves in me, then perhaps they might make a different decision. I can't undo my past. But, I'm honestly trying to make a better future. Part of that includes trying to pay it forward. I found a roadmap to healing on TAM. But had I not had the moxy, the determination, and attitude that I do, I might not have been here long enough to find it. I want to help. 

I don't judge you, for judging me. I understand that you've been devastated by your wife's multiple betrayals. I respect your right to post here and your need to share the depth of your pain and your anger caused by your wife's infidelity. I understand your love for your children and your heartbreak over their shattered dreams and childhood innocence. I'm sorry that your life has been so grossly altered in ways you never wanted. 

If I can share my story and save one person from living that same heartbreak then it helps me on my own journey towards healing. And, I'm trying to heal. My family deserves the best possible me that I can give them.

*****************************************************
For those of you who are so generous in coming to my defense, please know that I am humbled and grateful. But, always be mindful that your defense of me, or of anyone, should not come at the expense of the feelings of others. Everyone yearns to be understood. I think we all make valuable contributions here. I often learned valuable things about myself from posters who push me to reach beyond my comfort zone. I appreciate each and every one of you. Yep, even you, Headspin!


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

EI doesn't need my help sticking up for herself, so I won't. What I WILL do, is tell you posters a couple of little known facts about EI. She is , in RL, a 325 lb., Mongolian Hair Stylist, who's real name is Brunhilda Fong......Just thought you'd like to know.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Well, E1 im gonna do it anyway. You dont owe anyone on here anything.

Continue to help others. We need you here.

Headspin, we need you too, my friend. I find myself agreeing with you often. You have great insight. But, we do have to value the waywards who stick around to help. I dont understand cheaters. Never will. But they do. And if they want to help people in pain, they should be allowed to do that without insults. Right? Sorry, if that came across as judgmental.

Sorry E1. Im kind of outspoken.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> EI doesn't need my help sticking up for herself, so I won't. What I WILL do, is tell you posters a couple of little known facts about EI. She is , in RL, a 325 lb., Mongolian Hair Stylist, who's real name is Brunhilda Fong......Just thought you'd like to know.


I hate you!


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Quote of EI*
> always be mindful that your defense of me, or of anyone, should not come at the expense of the feelings of others


.

EI, I think we are on the page on your above post.
I just want to make sure.

I pointed out to Headspin his failure. *He probably got his feelings hurt but his feelings are not more important than the potential harm that he may do.* If anyone reads your posts they will know for sure that you have stated numerous times that you have, in many different words, stated that "I cheated and I'm wholly responsible for that"


Headspin knows that you have stated that but he does not believe you. If Headspin’s opinion is taken seriously by the newcomers, that do not know you, then your posts and by association your husband’s posts maybe ignored or not read. *After all, who wants to read a post by a WS that blames the bS?*


I know you may be too humble to say it but your posts and B1 posts are very valuable on this forum. You want to help at least one person from the hell of infidelity and many of us do also. 

Headspin’s opinion based on incomplete postings could prevent a newcomer from reading or taking your posts and B1 posts as valuable information for helping. *I think that someone that misrepresents a post by leaving part out so that he can justify his opinion should be called on it.* I pointed out Headspin’s failure to quote some of your words that gave a complete picture and I did it in as civil as I thought necessary.


You are so very right that everyone yearns to be understood. I understand Headspin’s yearning as I can still vividly remember my wanting to be understood as a BS just like Headspin. *But sometimes you have to make the call between two undesirables*. In Headspin's case I chose to point out Headspin’s failure, and potentially hurt his feeling rather than have new readers miss out on being helped.
Shoot, I would not be surprised if Headspin told us that his feeling was not hurt by my post.


EI I think that you and I are on the same page on this but I want to be 100% sure so that is the reason for this post. Another reason is that I think that it is important that posters get called on their failures as diplomatically as possible so that the readers can get the complete information as opposed to partial information


I think that when you sated “…at the expense of feelings” you were referring to cruel personal attacks on the person’s worth as a human. Pointing out someone’s failures in a civil way is much different. In this case, I do believe that I was civil but I know that I may get off track at some time in the future as this infidelity stuff can get very emotional. If that happens I depend on you and many others here to gently put a boot up my arse, in a civil manner of course!!!!! Please do not do it so hard that I will wear my arse hole for a necktie!

One last thing. EI, the wisdom of that quote you put up (see below) is so valuable. Now if we can just follow that wisdom!

*



"People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care."

Click to expand...

*


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

illwill said:


> Well, E1 im gonna do it anyway. You dont owe anyone on here anything.
> 
> Continue to help others. We need you here.
> 
> ...


Thanks....... I think! :scratchhead: No, really, thanks. 

Ditto about Headspin. He does, in fact, paint a very vivid picture for WS's that infidelity is an absolutely gut wrenching, devastating, and life altering event for BS's. I've taken that very much to heart. And, it inspires me to become a more compassionate person.

But, there are also elements of many of his posts that cause me pain, as well. But, because I desire to be able to express my honest feelings without being attacked, I would defend his right to do the same. Even if his honest feelings are painful for me to hear.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

EI said:


> I hate you!


Moi? Just because I revealed your dirty , little, secret?


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Ah, so the pic is fake. Never trust someone who post a pic of themselves on a website like this.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

" A Fairy Tale" by Rookie4. Once upon a time there was a wicked old Grandpaw, he was so dishonest that he had to clasp his hands , so the right one would know what the left one was doing. He had lots of little dishonest Grandkids One day they came to him and asked," We all want to screw other people, behind our spouses backs and get away with it." The Grandpaw said. "OK but what excuse will you use?" 
Little Johnny said, I will tell my wife that the devil made me do it" The Grandpaw said, "that's not a good one, what if your spouse isn't religious?' Little Janie said, " I will tell my husband that I was drunk". The Grandpaw said , " that won't do, because what if your spouse doesn't drink"? so the wicked Grandkids asked their wicked Grandpaw, " what would be a good excuse for ALL occasions?" He thought about it and said, " You will have to invent a phony disease, that nobody has ever heard of, then repeat it to your spouses constantly until they believe in it, you can call it "the Mist, or better still, the "fog". The wicked Grandkids did this and lived happily ever after. .........The End.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I know, I'm being a little silly, but this about sums up my opinion of the "fog".


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

illwill said:


> Ah, so the pic is fake. Never trust someone who post a pic of themselves on a website like this.


Absolutely , the photo is fake. That picture is of a really nice person, that I like a lot, so it couldn't possibly be EI.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I know, I'm being a little silly, but this about sums up my opinion of the "fog".


Mine too?


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> .
> 
> EI, I think we are on the page on your above post.
> I just want to make sure.
> ...


Mr. Blunt, I just don't want anyone to be hurt by me, for me, about me, or because of me. I don't want this to be about me, at all. I hate that I'm here. I hate all of this. But, here we all are, "Coping With Infidelity." I've earned my spot here, and I don't mean that in a good way. Being a former WS who "gets it" is a pretty unflattering claim to fame. I know that I talk/write way too much for someone who doesn't like being here. I do that because I don't want to see any more suffering. So, I try to contribute what I can. But, I don't expect to be praised for it. That doesn't seem right, either, does it? 

I don't want to be the "respected" WS on TAM. I don't want to be a WS, at all. But, I am. And, because I have no one to blame for that, but myself, I'm not asking for any sympathy. Now, here comes the dreaded "but." I'm not asking for sympathy, *but*....... I have to put my family first. And, even though I really do want to help, and I think that I have helped some people because they "pm" me and tell me that I have, when I get "ripped" again, and again, it wears me down. I have told/explained/shared (call it justification if you like) my story many, many times on TAM. I can only tell it the way I see it. I would hope, at this point, that anyone who knows my story and knows why I'm still here posting, could simply avoid my posts if they disagree with them. If not for my sake, then for the sake of my family and for those who do find something beneficial in learning from my transgressions. 

I know that I might come across as confident and self-assured, but I'm not really that tough. If you cut me, I'll bleed. I've bled a lot on TAM. 

It's late, this is day 4 at the hospital with our special needs son. This is his 3rd surgery in 17 months. I haven't slept since Tuesday. I'm rambling now.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Moi? Just because I revealed your dirty , little, secret?





illwill said:


> Ah, so the pic is fake. Never trust someone who post a pic of themselves on a website like this.





Rookie4 said:


> I know, I'm being a little silly, but this about sums up my opinion of the "fog".





Rookie4 said:


> Absolutely , the photo is fake. That picture is of a really nice person, that I like a lot, so it couldn't possibly be EI.





illwill said:


> Mine too?


You guys are slap happy!  

BTW...... The fog is real...... IMHWSO (can you solve that puzzle?)


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

2ntnuf, there is too much in your post to quote and engage with in detail. The main point I wold like to emphasise is the need for humanity.

It is not excusing someone for their wrongdoing to consider the specific facts of the case before passing sentence. The guilty verdict still stands, you are just talking about the degree of punishment.

It seems you and others are at pains to make sure that cheaters are held accountable, not allowed to avoid a "guilty" verdict. But you are preaching to the choir on that. I already believe this. 

Decisions aforethought? Yes, but premeditated and planned is not the same as a decision in the heat of passion, in my book at least.

What's wrong with saying cheating is a mistake? It's still wrong. I think you would have made a big mistake to buy Enron shares just prior to their collapse. A bad decision is a mistake.

I don't see anything of what I am arguing as sitting on the fence. My starting point is that everyone has the potential to cheat, and none sets out to marry a cheater, so just saying "Don't marry a cheater" is pretty useless. A more nuanced solution is necessary.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Headspin
> You have almost 1000 posts on Tam so I know that you are familiar with posts. *Why did you just post part of EI’s post and leave out the part that proves you are wrong?*
> 
> Here below is part of EI’s post that you failed to post


Originally Posted by EI
You are absolutely 100% correct, and I mean that with ALL sincerity. My husband and children did deserve so much better from me. I even deserved better from myself. Though you, and many others, see my comments as an attempt to rationalize my affair, I see them as an attempt to provide all of the pieces to the puzzle. When I say that I, too, deserved better from my husband, prior to my A, you see that as an attempt to rationalize my affair. But, I see it as transparency and honesty. Because, that is honestly what I believe. It's what I know. I only know one way to share my story. I share it the way I saw it, felt it, understood it, and experienced it, at the time, from my perspective. The affair can not be undone. I can not rationalize it away. It happened. In order to heal and move forward, whether together or separately, my BS needed and deserved to understand what I was thinking before and during my A.

By digging deep within ourselves and being honest with one another, even when the honesty hurts, my husband and I have both been able to identify and explore our weaknesses. But, that has also given us an opportunity to discover our greatest strengths. And, after nearly 30 years of marriage, we are discovering and enjoying things with each other that we never thought possible just a few years ago.

I only wish that we had gotten to the place we are, now, without ever having gone to the place we were, then. I don't think our marriage is better BECAUSE of my affair. I truly, truly, HATE what I did. Infidelity solves NOTHING. The damage is far reaching and incalculable. I do think our marriage is stronger, happier, and more rewarding today than it has ever been. But, it's despite my affair, not because of it. It's better because of the tremendous amount of work that we have both done on ourselves, and on our relationship, during the last 20 months.

Thanks you for wishing us well. I sincerely hope you find peace and healing, as well.


Reply by Headspin
Yes but that was then and now is now. When I see your story I always feel you are rationalizing your affair because you always mention that side of it every time. That's how it comes across to me - every time

I have grown to respect you more than most waywards in many ways but sadly that bit is I feel something that never leaves you.

Again I'm not looking at fighting with you and maybe my view sits very uneasily with you but once again I'll say my view is valid that you should consider because as a betrayed spouse who has been through the same as many your views on this do resonate as blameshifting to a degree

Sorry but for me it does 


Here below is part of EI’s post that you failed to post
BY EI
My husband's emotional and physical neglect of me, did not force me to cheat. Nor was it a justification for me to do so 

___________________

Now before this all gets a bit silly I am in a state of loony confusion.

When I made my point about E1 I quoted her post, highlighted the bit I was addressing and made my point 
I am not in the habit of leaving bits out for anybody or for any agenda. I am a bit of a 'simplistic' bloke - I talk straight and to the point and have nothing to make other than a point that I see fit without needing to resort to nonsense subterfuge or dishonesty to make it

I am looking at what I posted and quoted and what you say I quoted and I for the life of me cannot see that bit you say I left out or ignored - where is that in her original post then ? Show me

I can't see it 

I have her post, my quote and your quote of my quote and the three of them are identical There is no 

_BY EI
My husband's emotional and physical neglect of me, did not force me to cheat. Nor was it a justification for me to do so_

from what I see. Am I going a bit mad here.? Am I reading this wrong or are you?
If I am I apologize and if you are putting stuff up here that is not a reality then I'll expect a rather large apology from you

My point is simple and I think EI actually can see why I or any other bs might have one 

Your point is what ?

When you (or claptrap) start claiming people are being dishonest etc etc you better be able to back it up factually


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

EI said:


> I've read the remainder of the posts on this thread, so my comments might reflect on some of the other poster's comments, as well, but I am "quoting" this one because I want to speak directly to you regarding your position that I continue to blame shift the responsibility, for my decision to have an affair, onto my BS. You are correct when you state that I, very often, reiterate my story in its entirety. ........... *But, condemning and judging WS's, after they fact, does nothing to assist them in their own healing.* ...........
> 
> If I can share my story and save one person from living that same heartbreak then it helps me on my own journey towards healing. And, I'm trying to heal. My family deserves the best possible me that I can give them.
> 
> ...


That's a good post and respect for it

I don't agree at all with the part I have highlighted. I simply cannot see how 'nicing' someone about their treachery betrayal deceit and lies that destroys families helps _them_ at all 

It's a fundamental for me. It's human nature 
you talk to me while I am busy - I might not be listening especially if what I am doing is important - to me
you talk more pointedly at me to tell me you have something important to say - I still might not listen 
You get a bit offended and shout saying "Hey Don't be so rude I have something to say to you, so bloodywell stop what you're doing and listen to me 

Now I'll stop - now you have my attention - my head is out of my arse and I'm full on ears alight 

Without that I would have probably just carried on

That's simplistic, that's a crude analogy 

BUT it's the same thing as a wayward just not listening not wanting to listen having no intention to listen


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I think her point and others was just to leave the whole post and just highlight what you are commenting about. That way, others can see what you mean without something pertinent deleted. I've tried to do that myself. I will at times, just quote the part that i'm commenting about and when it's done to me, it feels like someone took my post out of context. It feels less controlling when the whole post is there.
> 
> That doesn't make your opinion's less valid when you leave all of the post there. It just allows folks to form their own opinions much easier, with less bias.
> 
> I know there have been some comments about using too much bandwidth. I think the owners or the moderators would post something, if that was a concern.


Well now I've had a closer look at this claim of my 'misguiding' 'misrepresenting' etc etc and as far as I know I haven't

I quoted a post and simply replied to the bit I did 

blunt says I left out some bit that I can't see so........


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Quote of Headspin
> -	where is that in her original post then ? Show me


*Look at Post 136 which was on the very same thread and the very same day that you posted and quoted EI 
-	see reprint of post # 136 at bottom of this post, see bold part*

Headspin, are you going to tell me that you have never seen EI say that she is wholly responsible for that period? You stated that “…she mentions her husbands shortcomings every single occasion I've seen” Well that post 136 that is on the same thread and the same day that you did all that posting she mentioned her husband’s short comings.* Are you telling me that you did not read that post or all the other posts that she has said she is responsible for cheating? Be honest Headspin*



> *Quote of Headspin*
> Because she mentions her husbands shortcomings every single occasion I've seen. There's never "I cheated and I'm wholly responsible for that" period - there's always a 'qualification' there's always an element of "but" in her posts and that I simply never accept from any wayward.











> Quote of Headspin
> if you are putting stuff up here that is not a reality then I'll expect a rather large apology from you


The stuff I put up is a reality








> Quote of Headspin
> Your point is what ?


*My point is that you quoted only the section of EI’s post that makes your claim look legitimate and left out the part that proves you wrong.*If you are going to claim that you have never seen EI post that she is responsible for her A then you made a derogatory claim about her without doing much research at all















Post 136
Quote:
*Originally Posted by vellocet * 
I agree. Here is the thing, and yes, I know I'm hard on cheaters, but will never take it to the personal attack arena. But there are WS's here who get it and are doing what needs to be done to make it up to their BS. WS's such as EI and Mrs. John Adams. WS's like that I think get even the most spirited BS's who are opinionated about cheating to listen and realize that there are WS's out there that do understand and take even the harsh comments to heart.



Reply By EI
Thank you for the acknowledgement, vellocet, although being a WS who "got it" is not the legacy that I imagined I'd be leaving behind. I have, actually, tried very hard to "get it." What I've come to realize is that no matter how sorry I am for hurting B1 and our children, no matter how much I regret the deceptive, selfish, and immoral decisions that defined my affair, no matter how much those choices hurt, not only my family, but myself, as well; knowing that and acknowledging that........ does not make the, sometimes, nearly, incapacitating hurt, that we ALL feel, stop hurting. 

B1 and our children love me and have forgiven me for betraying them. And, I love my family and have forgiven B1 for the many years that he emotionally and physically neglected me, despite my repeated attempts to persuade him to work with me on repairing our marriage. He not only refused to work with me on improving our marriage, he also refused to address some personal issues of his own that I had no control over, nor would he acknowledge the work that I was doing to repair things on "my side of the road," all in an effort to improve, both, myself, and our marriage. Whether it's a popular theme on TAM, or not, I have never shied away from telling the truth as I see it, and as I feel it, at any given time. Even when my version of the truth is not what others want to hear. By being truthful, I have demonstrated one of the single most important lessons that the TAM community strives to drive home, every single day. I am being 100% transparent, with my words, my thoughts, and my deeds. Anyone can say "the right" words, but words spoken, without truth, are meaningless, at best, and very harmful and destructive, at worst.

My point is; true remorse, true regret, and a genuine desire to make amends by understanding what your BS needs from you, in order for their healing to begin, is NOT something that can be forced, demanded, or coerced from your WS. Trying to force certain words and behaviors from your WS is often the way False R's begin. Does a BS, who wishes to reconcile, want their former WS to "say" the right words, or to "feel" the right feelings? Do they want to hear only what they want to hear, or do they want to hear the truth..... the truth, as their WS perceives it to be? You see, I feel very differently, now, than I did 20 months ago. But, that is because B1 and I have "both" worked on our marriage, and on ourselves, as individuals. Because, the truth is, like it or not, we both had work to do if there was to be ANY hope of reconciliation. Our marriage had become a cesspool of misery a long time before my A. Now, that did NOT justify my affair. I KNOW that, NOW, beyond any shadow of any doubt. But, 20 months ago, I wasn't there, YET. That's when I arrived in TAMland.

There are a few posters who, repeatedly, insist that unless a WS arrives in TAMland and immediately declares their remorse, regret, and willingness, if not eagerness, to prostrate themselves before the feet of the almighty BS's of TAM, that they are unworthy of being treated with common courtesy, are beyond redemption, and are undeserving of the 'opportunity' to present "their side of the story," even on an anonymous and free Internet forum. The truth is, very few WS's whose A's have recently been discovered vs. those who have confessed of their own free will, are going be feeling an immediate sense of remorse, regret, and a desire to make amends. Because, my truth, as is often stated by many BS's on TAM, is that WS's cheat because they want to. I know that's why I did it.* I'll admit, as I have from day one, that my A didn't "just happen." It wasn't a mistake, an accident, or something that I didn't see coming. I wasn't "played," taken advantage of, and I didn't fall into it because I was vulnerable and naive.* I was vulnerable, but I wasn't naive. I knew that I was going to have an A, even before I knew who I was going to have an A with. My A was my choice. Now, I fully comprehend how destructive, devastating and wrong that choice was. Then, I made a conscious choice to have an affair, and I made another choice not to dwell on the potential of any future negative consequences. 

With that being said, is it realistic to believe that 2 1/2 weeks after D-Day, that I would honestly be feeling remorseful, regretful and humbled? I was none of those things, in fact, I was pi$$ed as Hell. I was angry, defensive, and defiant. At that time, I felt completely justified and entitled in having the A and I was not in any state of mind to accept that my affair was 100% my fault and that it was strictly MY job to do the heavy lifting if we were going to have any hope of reconciling. Yet, that is EXACTLY what certain BS's demand from newly arriving WS's. But, they also demand honesty and transparency, all without trickle truth. So, I'm asking, what do you REALLY want? Do you want the truth (as your WS sees it) or do you only want to hear what you want to hear? Because, the reality is, in the immediate aftermath of infidelity, the truth, as your WS perceives it, at the time, is NOT going to be what you want to hear. Otherwise, why would the WS have been having the A in the first place?

After D-Day, May 27th, 2012, because my BS loved me, because he knew that he wanted to attempt to reconcile with me, because he realized that he had lost me, and because he knew that he had contributed greatly to my suffering and vulnerability, pre-A, he chose to disregard a great deal of what was told to him by many of the posters on TAM. He chose NOT to be punitive. But, he DID NOT roll over and play dead. In fact, I saw a stronger, more determined side of him than I had EVER seen before. He was VERY CLEAR about what he would and what he would not tolerate. But, he also understood that while he could make it difficult, if not impossible, for me to "do" certain things, he could not control how I felt. He didn't want to simply control my actions, his desire was to win back my heart. THIS is where the "understanding," that WS's are often criticized, on TAM, for seeking, comes in. While there is NO justification for an A, there ARE always reasons. If the BS knows that the "reasons" that their WS is stating, as "justification" for cheating, are valid issues that the BS was made aware of, pre-A, yet refused to address, then, IF they wish to reconcile, they will have to address those issues. 

I used to become very defensive when BS's (and others) declared that ALL WS's were flawed. Well, no $hit Sherlock, you're right. And guess what, so are you, and you, and you. If you're wondering if I am talking about YOU, I am. We're ALL flawed. Every single one of us. *My husband's emotional and physical neglect of me, did not force me to cheat*. Nor was it a justification for me to do so. My husband's long term emotional and physical neglect, along with his refusal to make any real or sustained efforts to work with me, and his insistence that I "accept our lot in life," left me in an extremely vulnerable, hopeless, depressed, defeated, bitter, and broken state of mind. It was in that state of mind, that this very flawed human being chose to surrender my integrity, my values, and my character, for the quickest and easiest measure of relief, respite, and happiness, however wrong I knew it was, that I could find. 

It was then, that my strong, loving, forgiving, selfless, generous, merciful, and compassionate husband, chose to dig deep, and made a decision that opened the door to the beginning of our journey towards healing, which ultimately, led to a our reconciliation. B1 decided to meet me where I was and NOT where TAM insisted that I should be. And, where I was, was just 2 1/2 weeks removed from D-Day, in what was a 15 month EA/PA. I had abandoned the marriage. I was no longer in love with B1. But, he knew that he had emotionally and physically abandoned me long before my A. He never even noticed that I had finally let go, as well..... not until about 10 days before D-Day. I hadn't been leading B1 on, telling him that I loved him, pretending to be happy, or even sleeping in his bed. And, I certainly wasn't putting his physical health at risk, we hadn't slept together in well over a year. Because, when I stopped initiating, there was no more sex, ever. That was a long time before my A began.

In choosing to meet me where I was, B1 allowed me to be 100% transparent without the fear of having to live in a more hostile environment. We, both, began to show genuine compassion for one another. Then, we began to feel true empathy for one another. That compassion, led to passion, and that passion reignited our love. 

I wasn't psychologically in this place 20 months ago. I came to TAM in search of direction, healing, answers, and a desire to honestly understand myself better. More than anything, I wanted to know how to best help my BS heal. I was no longer in love with him, but he was my husband, the father of my children, and a man that I had known, and once loved, very deeply, for many, many years. I could see that he was hurting, too, although I didn't understand it, at the time. I was angry and resentful that he was only willing or able to demonstrate his love for me after I had long since given up. We were both grieving and, at that point, all we had was each other. 

Not one single TAMer, NOT ONE, who chose to say disparaging things about my character, rather than about my choices, added to the success of our reconciliation in ANY way. When certain posters say that they are simply trying to help WS's understand and own the magnitude of their actions, and then suggest that they are entitled to hurl cruel accusations, which are often incorrect, they are not revealing the character of the WS, they are revealing their own flawed character. BS's are no more "entitled" to verbally assault WS's than WS's are "entitled" to cheat. If I, as a WS, am required to own my $hit (and I do, now) and I am not entitled to blame shift my choices, for ANY reason, on the actions of my BS, or anyone else, then it should go without saying, that no one else, not even a BS, can blame shift their choices, words, actions and responses, on anyone else, either. Not even their WS.

It was the BS's, on TAM, who were kind enough to openly, and honestly, share their pain filled stories of heartbreak and betrayal, without seeking to further break down my already broken spirit, whom B1 and I credit with paving the road and giving us a map to follow on our journey towards healing and reconciliation. It was then that the Reconciliation thread was created. It soon became a welcoming gathering place for, both, BS's and WS's, as well as many other wonderful individuals, who were like-minded in believing that helping, healing, learning, growing, and sharing was a far more healthy, rewarding, and successful approach to "Coping with Infidelity" than simply condemning the WS's


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

illwill said:


> Ah, so the pic is fake. Never trust someone who post a pic of themselves on a website like this.





Rookie4 said:


> Absolutely , the photo is fake. That picture is of a really nice person, that I like a lot, so it couldn't possibly be EI.


My picture is not fake!  I just happen to be married to a very talented photographer who has a very nice package...... uh, Photoshop package!  So, in the interest of transparency and full disclosure, I will gladly show you my "before" and "after" Photoshop headshot. Then, you will clearly see for yourself that B1 only needs to do a few minor touch ups! 

BEFORE:



AFTER:


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

EI said:


> You guys are slap happy!
> 
> BTW...... The fog is real...... IMHWSO (can you solve that puzzle?)


What does the Indiana Michigan House Wives Sewing Organization have to do with this?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

EI said:


> My picture is not fake!  I just happen to be married to a very talented photographer who has a very nice package...... uh, Photoshop package!  So, in the interest of transparency and full disclosure, I will gladly show you my "before" and "after" Photoshop headshot. Then, you will clearly see for yourself that B1 only needs to do a few minor touch ups!
> 
> BEFORE:
> 
> ...


OK, EI is now trolling for compliments. Don't humor her or she will be insufferable.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

EI said:


> Mr. Blunt, I just don't want anyone to be hurt by me, for me, about me, or because of me. I don't want this to be about me, at all. I hate that I'm here. I hate all of this. But, here we all are, "Coping With Infidelity." I've earned my spot here, and I don't mean that in a good way. Being a former WS who "gets it" is a pretty unflattering claim to fame. I know that I talk/write way too much for someone who doesn't like being here. I do that because I don't want to see any more suffering. So, I try to contribute what I can. But, I don't expect to be praised for it. That doesn't seem right, either, does it?
> 
> I don't want to be the "respected" WS on TAM. I don't want to be a WS, at all. But, I am. And, because I have no one to blame for that, but myself, I'm not asking for any sympathy. Now, here comes the dreaded "but." I'm not asking for sympathy, but....... I have to put my family first. And, even though I really do want to help, and I think that I have helped some people because they "pm" me and tell me that I have, when I get "ripped" again, and again, it wears me down. I have told/explained/shared (call it justification if you like) my story many, many times on TAM. I can only tell it the way I see it. I would hope, at this point, that anyone who knows my story and knows why I'm still here posting, could simply avoid my posts if they disagree with them. If not for my sake, then for the sake of my family and for those who do find something beneficial in learning from my transgressions.
> 
> ...


I liked your post very much.

I am very sorry that you have distressing, important things going on right now. I hope everything goes well in that area, and my thoughts are with you.

I truly appreciate your effort in contributing to this thread at this time, when your attention must truly be on something else.

Thank you for your postings.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

I think it's pretty simple. The vast majority of the WS that come (in my experience) are looking for sympathy, justification, to blame shift and to rationalize. It's very rare you see a WS come in here and be truly remorseful, repentant, and gathering honest to goodness advice on how to heal their BS and fix their marriages and themselves. 

Most of the WS I see here come here with the same attitude that "allowed" them to cheat in the first place. And the vast majority of the posters in here being BS, well...it ain't that tough to figure out what's going on here.

I know a lot of people don't like the BS being portrayed as victims, but in fact, they are. Victims of severe emotional abuse, betrayal and intentional heartache. WS are not victims, they are perpetrators, and often get treated as such. 

That's the nature of the beast.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

You're right, Healer. That's how they come in. They just want to explain themselves and find a way to make what they did be not so bad. I think that is natural and expected. Nobody wants to feel that they are nothing but selfish, pathetic, possibly delusional and narcissistic people. 

BSs are victims. They didn't ask to be cheated on. But, what if the WS were to have left them instead of cheated? If the BS were neglectful or abusive, would we call them victims or would we say they had it coming? See, the spouse that is left might be just as hurt and not have wanted to be left. There is a lot of shame and failure associated with being left as well.

This is where the dynamics of the relationship come into play. This is where the examination of broken marriage and how both parties (usually, though there are times when it is only one party) helped wreck it.

Cheating doesn't eliminate the pre-existence of an unhealthy relationship or the part that the BS played in getting there.

Unfortunately, it is easy to demonize the cheater and harp on the fact that there is no excuse for cheating. It is a lot more difficult to perform an honest marriage post-mortem. The BS is put in a bad position where they not only have to face having been cheated on, but they have to look at some painful truths about themselves. That seems like insult to injury. But it isn't really. It is facing the truth.  Truth can hurt. But it isn't punishment. It just is. 

Truth does not have an agenda. It exists and we can either face it or try to run away from it. The WS attempted to run away from the truth by creating an alternative reality that was more pleasant. After the affair is brought to light, the BS is hit with all of it at once. But they still try to run from it and I'm going to hazard that in many cases, the BS who can't get past parsing each and every word to measure whether it contains the right amount of remorse, they are still running from the other truths that the affair brought to light -- the ones that say they are not innocent in the demise of the marriage.

Like I said and I'm sure will be ignore, there are some truly innocent spouses who did nothing to precipitate the cheating. There are some truly pathological people out there and when you marry one, you can be a saint and they are still going to cheat on you. But in most cases, there is a degree of failure on both sides of the marriage before cheating starts.

Well... flame away.

Or, pick and choose what to quote.

It really doesn't matter. I don't have to live with what other people do. They have to live with it and if they aren't able or willing to face -- or more likely ADMIT -- a larger truth, that's on them.

I suspect they face it but don't admit it if they go on to have a better 2nd marriage. They really do learn something and it isn't all "just marry a better partner next time." They learn how to BE a better partner.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> I suspect they face it but don't admit it if they go on to have a better 2nd marriage. They really do learn something and it isn't all "just marry a better partner next time." They learn how to BE a better partner.


It is the "just marry a better partner" mantra that worries me. That's why I see this discussion as so important.

If you believe, as I do, that everyone has it within them to cheat, given the wrong circumstances, then picking a partner less likely to cheat is certainly important, but it is not enough.

With all I know now, I still don't think I could choose a more trustworthy partner than my wife. If I hadn't lived that horrible period 24 years ago, I would find it impossible to believe it had happened.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> When an individual places a high value on sex, believing they are sharing much more than just an act and release, *along with loving actions that attempt to satisfy their partner,* they are devastated.


Not only when sex is involved, either. This is why EA's are just as devastating.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

EI said:


> I've read the remainder of the posts on this thread, so my comments might reflect on some of the other poster's comments, as well, but I am "quoting" this one because I want to speak directly to you regarding your position that I continue to blame shift the responsibility, for my decision to have an affair, onto my BS. You are correct when you state that I, very often, reiterate my story in its entirety. When I'm posting in the Reconciliation thread, I no longer feel the need to summarize our story in such great detail with every post because I believe that most of the readers of the R thread are already well versed in the whole backstory that precedes my affair. But, when I post on other threads I think there is always a possibility that there may be someone who is reading who has not read our story and who does not know the details.


Even as an empathetic person, you can't know what it's truly like to experience things others go through until you walk in their shoes. I am an empathetic person myself, and I perceive you to be one too EI. 

That means that you nor I right now can understand what it is to be a BS. We can have an inkling, but not really KNOW what it is like. I hope neither of us do in the future either. 

The flip-side is that many of those who are hard on you don't understand what you went through. Having a spouse who doesn't want to be sexual with you is soul destroying. It makes you doubt your self worth. One that professes to still love you, one you've built your life with, but just can't bring themselves to be sexual with you when you've had a wonderful sex life before is devastating.

To minimize that pain you went through isn't right either. It doesn't _excuse_ what you did. But it isn't fair to not acknowledge it is there too.

There are those who will say "you should divorce before you cheat." Yeah, that's true. But it doesn't acknowledge what it's like staring divorce in the face and taking the weak way out. The thoughts of the disruption of your own life, what it will do to your kids. Cake eating is very alluring if you think you can get away with it.



EI said:


> What I do know is that if I can say, or do, or share, ANYTHING that might prevent even one person from making the same horrible choice that I made, then I want to try.
> 
> I am NOT where I was three years ago. I do see things differently, now. But, Headspin, there are a lot of hurting and broken people who are out there. There are a lot of people who, right now, feel just as hurt, broken, bitter, angry, and hopeless, as I did, 3 years ago, right before my A began. How can I reach them? How can I make a difference? Is there ANYTHING that I could say that might persuade someone to make a different choice. I have asked myself that question a million times. What could someone have said to me that would have reached me before the damage was done?


Well I don't think it was you that dissuaded me from doing something since you were in the middle of your worst when I joined TAM. TBH, we would not have been friends at that point; Yes, when you came here you were still filled with indignation. 

It was others that talked about the destruction of infidelity that ended that line of thinking on my part. I'd encourage you to keep going on this endeavor, to discourage others from making the same mistake. I'll hint that posting in the SIM is someplace to go to reach out to others. Honestly I don't remember all of who it was at the time, but there was a few threads I read there that talked about the destruction. I know one was Deejo. 

Just post in the threads where there are frustrated husbands and wives, particularly ones where they hint that they may be thinking about cheating.

The other thing I really want to do is figure out how to communicate to my kids so they don't go through this on either side. I've talked to them in some general ideas about boundaries in marriage, openness and so on. Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Simply Amorous has a thread about what she wants to tell her daughter about sex.... I may resurrect that thread and add this particular subject to it.



EI said:


> I don't judge you, for judging me. I understand that you've been devastated by your wife's multiple betrayals. I respect your right to post here and your need to share the depth of your pain and your anger caused by your wife's infidelity. I understand your love for your children and your heartbreak over their shattered dreams and childhood innocence. I'm sorry that your life has been so grossly altered in ways you never wanted.


What hit me so strongly about your story was that I could have been you EI. 

Why wasn't I? TBH, you're an attractive woman and I'm an average at best dude. Offers come your way far more than they would for me. So many stories from indignant BS men mention that they could have cheated but they didn't. I wonder if they were truly tested as you were? I was tested myself _when my marriage was good._ A pretty young woman at work made hints, and I shot her down. But I wasn't at my worst. I don't know if I would have passed the test then. 

I does make me wonder if you are mad a God at times for testing you in this way? I know it would have for me. At least the flip-side is true: I have gratitude I wasn't tested when I may have failed. 

I'm so glad for all the reason you mention in the above quoted text. My marriage is good now. I think back of all that I would have lost had I strayed. Maybe I would have kept it a secret. I also know I would be an emotional wreck if I did. I'd have stress related illnesses no doubt. Or if I came clean, I would have devastated my wife. Whether our marriage survived or not, I would have hurt my wife horribly. I would have lost the respect of my kids, I would have shattered their world.



EI said:


> For those of you who are so generous in coming to my defense, please know that I am humbled and grateful. But, always be mindful that your defense of me, or of anyone, should not come at the expense of the feelings of others. Everyone yearns to be understood. I think we all make valuable contributions here. I often learned valuable things about myself from posters who push me to reach beyond my comfort zone. I appreciate each and every one of you. Yep, even you, Headspin!


There are some hard things for BS's to hear though.

I have an analogy in some ways to other bad things that can happen to people that in a way can describe the way in which a BS did 'contribute' even though it isn't their fault.

Women don't 'deserve to get raped.' But it does happen. And women can do things that increase or decrease the odds. Walking alone in a bad part of town is a bad idea. Neither is getting drunk to the point of passing out at a frat party. A woman doing either does not deserve to be raped. But it GREATLY increases the odds of it happening. Those women who did those things in no way deserves to have it happen. It in no way lessens the guilt of the animals who did what they did to her. But that guilt and the punishment doesn't un-rape her. She's going to live with it for the rest of their life. 

A BS that contributes to the bad state of a marriage does contribute in the same way. It is NOT the fault of the BS that an affair happens just as it isn't a woman's fault that she got raped. Yes, one should leave a marriage before they cheat. But that ignores human behavior. Just as there are men who will succumb to primal urges and violate women, there are spouses who will be weak. 

There are a variety of WS. Some are mentally ill. Some cheat because they are scum, cheating on a loyal spouse who gives them everything, treats them very well all the time. But then there are those that cheat like you did EI. One can't protect themselves from the former, no matter what they do they can be cheated on. But if you have a 'normal' spouse, keeping your marriage good will reduce the chances of becoming a BS.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> You're right, Healer. That's how they come in. They just want to explain themselves and find a way to make what they did be not so bad. I think that is natural and expected. Nobody wants to feel that they are nothing but selfish, pathetic, possibly delusional and narcissistic people.
> 
> BSs are victims. They didn't ask to be cheated on. But, what if the WS were to have left them instead of cheated? If the BS were neglectful or abusive, would we call them victims or would we say they had it coming? See, the spouse that is left might be just as hurt and not have wanted to be left. There is a lot of shame and failure associated with being left as well.


 Equating someone leaving to an affair is a lousy analogy. Yes, there is pain associated with both but that is where the similarity ends. The moment a WS chooses to have an affair is the moment that a BS's hands are shackled in trying to improve the marriage.


> This is where the dynamics of the relationship come into play. This is where the examination of broken marriage and how both parties (usually, though there are times when it is only one party) helped wreck it.
> 
> Cheating doesn't eliminate the pre-existence of an unhealthy relationship or the part that the BS played in getting there.


 Every single relationship has flaws and requires work to some degree, at some point. Again, affairs shackle the BS, particularly if there is passive aggressive behavior and/or narcissism involved.


> Unfortunately, it is easy to demonize the cheater and harp on the fact that there is no excuse for cheating. It is a lot more difficult to perform an honest marriage post-mortem. The BS is put in a bad position where they not only have to face having been cheated on, but they have to look at some painful truths about themselves. That seems like insult to injury. But it isn't really. It is facing the truth. Truth can hurt. But it isn't punishment. It just is.


 Yes, it is easy to demonize the cheater. They chose a path that was selfish and destructive. I won't say that an affair is never understandable but I will say that is an exceedingly cowardly way to address an issue, and a lacking in oneself. Because that is what it is. *No matter how broken the marriage, or the behavior of the betrayed spouse, an affair shows a lack of character that must be addressed.* You can talk all you want about neglect, controlling behavior or whatever the reason of the day is, the bottom line is that the WS chose to address the issue in a way that was destructive and cowardly. The onus of the choice is on that person. 


> Truth does not have an agenda. It exists and we can either face it or try to run away from it. The WS attempted to run away from the truth by creating an alternative reality that was more pleasant. After the affair is brought to light, the BS is hit with all of it at once. But they still try to run from it and I'm going to hazard that in many cases, the BS who can't get past parsing each and every word to measure whether it contains the right amount of remorse, they are still running from the other truths that the affair brought to light -- the ones that say they are not innocent in the demise of the marriage.


Disagree here too. The BS is not innocent in contributing to the problems in a marriage. However, they are innocent in the demise, regardless of who files. It is important for the BS to understand how they contributed to the overall marriage health, and hopefully, through that knowledge gain insight on how to be a better partner. *Conversely, they also will hopefully gain insight on how to choose a better partner*; one that when things get difficult (and they will) will not make the weak choices of their previous partner.


> Like I said and I'm sure will be ignore, there are some truly innocent spouses who did nothing to precipitate the cheating. There are some truly pathological people out there and when you marry one, you can be a saint and they are still going to cheat on you. But in most cases, there is a degree of failure on both sides of the marriage before cheating starts.


 I think you underestimate the amount of pathology that is out there in our society. Once again, a BS is shackled when they are gaslighted and lied to. They are not even given an opportunity to acknowledge and work on the marriage. If a partner cheats (once), comes clean and works sincerely to restore the marriage that is a far different scenario than many on this board face. I also believe that the former scenario is much more rare than the serial or unremorseful cheater. 

I don't know which category EI falls into. I have not been here long enough to get a feel. From what others here have posted, it seems likely that she falls into the former category and to that, all I can say is best wishes.



> Well... flame away.
> 
> Or, pick and choose what to quote.
> 
> ...



Maybe, but in many, many cases, choosing a better partner is the crux of it. So many of us choose to overlook pink* flags. I know I did. Things that seem innocuous, a harmless quirk or just a trait of immaturity in a young person can flare into a full fledged red flag. I understand why my stbx chose to cheat. That understanding has brought much peace and allowed me to forgive myself. Still, each of us has room to improve as far as being partners; those of us who have been BSs and those in stable relationships.


eta: [slight hijack] The choice on how much to quote or summarize seems to be dictated by custom of the specific board. TAM is apparently different from many boards that I have frequented. Personally, I don't care for the whole post the whole book long quote thing and prefer it either broken up as I have above (which btw is a ton of work) or just posting the relevant part.[/hijack]


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Oh, and you're rubbing of EI. I'm the guy of a few, pointed words and I made an EI length post.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I'm not going to reply Fenix except to say this. I did not EQUATE being left to being cheated on. Why would you restate what I said in a way that was clearly not the case? What purpose did it serve?

You don't have to answer it. I don't really want you to. I'd like you to think about it for yourself. It is important that we don't fall into a place where we cannot see what we don't believe and we don't hear what isn't being said because we are afraid what was really said will ask you to question those beliefs.

I think questioning those beliefs will ultimately set a BS free.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> I'm not going to reply Fenix except to say this. I did not EQUATE being left to being cheated on. Why would you restate what I said in a way that was clearly not the case? What purpose did it serve?
> 
> You don't have to answer it. I don't really want you to. I'd like you to think about it for yourself. It is important that we don't fall into a place where we cannot see what we don't believe and we don't hear what isn't being said because we are afraid what was really said will ask you to question those beliefs.
> 
> I think questioning those beliefs will ultimately set a BS free.


Please stop being patronizing.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> *Look at Post 136 which was on the very same thread and the very same day that you posted and quoted EI
> -	see reprint of post # 136 at bottom of this post, see bold part*
> 
> Headspin, are you going to tell me that you have never seen EI say that she is wholly responsible for that period? You stated that “…she mentions her husbands shortcomings every single occasion I've seen” Well that post 136 that is on the same thread and the same day that you did all that posting she mentioned her husband’s short comings.* Are you telling me that you did not read that post or all the other posts that she has said she is responsible for cheating? Be honest Headspin*
> ...


Christ I'll not even go there ....I've never seen anything so ridiculous in my life 

you are quoting posts I have not even replied to
you are adding on parts of one post I have not replied to to another that I have replied too and expect me to consider that as part of your new 'amended' post and from someone that is not even you !! 
you are claiming I ought to be addressing posts from someone that is not even connected to the posts I have responded to! 

Are you serious ? ..... you need to get a grip blunt

Don't try digging your way out because it'll look even more ridiculous. 

Lets just leave it because when all is said and done it is a good relevant lively debate and the thread doesn't need this rubbish


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Why is divorcing better than having an affair? What if I was to say, "both are wrong, both will cause grief to your partner, you shouldn't do either?"

Fenix, you said that having an affair shackles your partner's attempts to improve the marriage. It is so obvious that divorce does the same thing that I assume I am missing your point?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Why is divorcing better than having an affair? What if I was to say, "both are wrong, both will cause grief to your partner, you shouldn't do either?"
> 
> Fenix, you said that having an affair shackles your partner's attempts to improve the marriage. It is so obvious that divorce does the same thing that I assume I am missing your point?


Are you really asking that question Wazza?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

*Re: Re: Strange but true.*



Fenix said:


> Please stop being patronizing.


I responded appropriately. I am being honest and very sincere.

Calling it patronizing is dismissive.

It struck a nerve for a reason. Let it percolate for a while. Don't judge it. Don't fight it. Just let it bounce around.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Are you really asking that question Wazza?


It's interesting to think about. 

Both cause tremendous emotional damage, both constitute a fundamental rejection. Divorce has more implications financially, can involve restricted access to kids, etc

My wife and I promised to be married till death parts us. We meant it. Surely both are a betrayal of trust. 

I think I would rather my wife divorced me than cheated again, but I don't really know.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> It's interesting to think about.
> 
> Both cause tremendous emotional damage, both constitute a fundamental rejection. Divorce has more implications financially, can involve restricted access to kids, etc
> 
> ...


Be careful, Wazza, you are bordering on the inane. divorce is ending a relationship that is bad, adultery is making the relationship bad enough to divorce. To equate them is preposterous.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Wazza said:


> It's interesting to think about.
> 
> Both cause tremendous emotional damage, both constitute a fundamental rejection. Divorce has more implications financially, can involve restricted access to kids, etc
> 
> ...


So, even if your marriage is awful and you are no longer compatible you should stay?

Your marriage should not define your life, it should enhance it.

And if you would rather your wife cheat again than divorce you, that is the very definition of co-dependacy.

You should honor your vows, even though your spouse did not? You are not married to yourself.

YOU meant your vows, but waywards clearly do not. No fog talk please.

No disrespect, but your comments above are scary. Is this what we teach our children? They should stay in a unhappy marriage? No matter what? That self respect is not important? That fear should drive our life choices?

Divorce is almost always better than staying in a unhappy marriage. Not everyone cheats. And we only get one life. Why settle when you can be happy? Your kids would likely want nothing less.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Be careful, Wazza, you are bordering on the inane. divorce is ending a relationship that is bad, adultery is making the relationship bad enough to divorce. To equate them is preposterous.


My personal belief is that, while there are valid grounds for divorce (adultery being one of them) that too many people give up too easily. Maybe who don't spend enough time trying to fix their marriages. I'm no thinking of you, or anyone on this thread in particular.

It's not inane to pose the question. There are lots of bad things about infidelity, lots of bad things about divorce.

Really posted this picking up on what Fenix said.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

illwill said:


> So, even if your marriage is awful and you are no longer compatible you should stay?
> 
> Your marriage should not define your life, it should enhance it.
> 
> ...


If your marriage is awful, work on it. Don't just cheat, don't just divorce. Sort the problem. 

Is your happiness the only good? What about the impact of your decision to divorce on others? (spouse and kids for a start). Does a WS deserve to be happy? Even if their happiness is a product of their infidelity?

I know this is the real world, I know it takes two to make a successful marriage. I know it's not that simple. But the notion that cheating on your partner makes you demon spawn from the seventh hell, but divorcing them because you feel like sex with someone else, then taking them for most of their money, in spite of all the promises you made, is nobel.....I don't buy that.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Wazza said:


> If your marriage is awful, work on it. Don't just cheat, don't just divorce. Sort the problem.


Yes and then if you don't sort the problem try again, try better communication and try again, then again
and finally maybe after another year, when it still does not work, split - finish maybe unhappy for a while but at least with real respect for each other that you tried 

NOT NOO "Ohhoo my husband doesn't understand me" so I'll fk around and rip everybody's lives to shreds and then because of that I'll lie about it after and then we'll despise each other for evermore 

Christ how easy is that choice, how easier could it get? - you try, it don''t work - try some more and it still don't work - *SO then split the fk up - don't cheat.
*
And this is it for me* it IS easy* the whole extrication out of an ailing marriage can be complicated and the balance about who is damaging it most can be very different but _when you both know it is not working_ and the temptation you are about to act on will destroy everything then the choice is piss easy



Wazza said:


> Is your happiness the only good? What about the impact of your decision to divorce on others? (spouse and kids for a start). Does a WS deserve to be happy? Even if their happiness is a product of their infidelity?
> 
> I know this is the real world, I know it takes two to make a successful marriage. I know it's not that simple. But the notion that cheating on your partner makes you demon spawn from the seventh hell, but divorcing them because you feel like sex with someone else, then taking them for most of their money, in spite of all the promises you made, is nobel.....I don't buy that.


I cant see how the alternative I just mentioned is in any way the best option. Hard to believe any one would consider that tbh


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## obaid (Feb 10, 2014)

Agreement in toto


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Yes and then if you don't sort the problem try again, try better communication and try again, then again
> and finally maybe after another year, when it still does not work, split - finish maybe unhappy for a while but at least with real respect for each other that you tried
> 
> NOT NOO "Ohhoo my husband doesn't understand me" so I'll fk around and rip everybody's lives to shreds and then because of that I'll lie about it after and then we'll despise each other for evermore
> ...


Who is advocating cheating over divorce?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Who is advocating cheating over divorce?


Seems to me the lines between the two for you are a lot more blurred than for most of us but you are you, you have your experience of infidelity but although from what you say you seem to have drawn different conclusions about it to many of us.

But again it's interesting it does show just how different the whole damn sh!te of adultery can be for any one of us


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> EI, I think we are on the page on your above post.
> I just want to make sure.
> 
> I pointed out to Headspin his failure. *He probably got his feelings hurt but his feelings are not more important than the potential harm that he may do.* If anyone reads your posts they will know for sure that you have stated numerous times that you have, in many different words, stated that "I cheated and I'm wholly responsible for that"
> ...


mmm.... Well, Mr Blunt here's a "failing" of yours I'd like to point out - attempting (badly) to manipulate the data, the posts, so that they back up a completely spurious defense of another poster who is frankly a lot better than you at defending arguing her own point. 

From my many often intense interaction / discussion with her EI she's articulate and intelligent enough without needing you to change and invent posts to argue her case for her. If you tried to defend me by doing what you've tried here I'd be extremely embarrassed. 

People here can see what you've done with your 'creation'. 

Am I hurt by your abysmal attempts to publicly make me something I'm very much not ? no 
irritated? - yes and have every right to be. 

I suggest you go back to school and work on it a lot harder before you try that again


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Seems to me the lines between the two for you are a lot more blurred than for most of us but you are you, you have your experience of infidelity but although from what you say you seem to have drawn different conclusions about it to many of us.
> 
> But again it's interesting it does show just how different the whole damn sh!te of adultery can be for any one of us


I don't see it as blurred. My view on adultery is similar to yours, but my view on divorce is different.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Wazza is doing a mind experiment that it seems some can't fathom. 

Wazza's thinking isn't inane. It is a positive trait to be willing to consider things in different ways and to learn what can be learned from it. Wazza is intelligent and able to question his previously held beliefs.

He may end up deciding his previous beliefs were spot on by doing this thought experiment. But he might not. He might also modify his beliefs based on new understanding.

It is a shame that not everyone can hear what he is saying, instead of putting words into his mouth that are not there.

It reminds me a lot of people assaying words of remorse and declaring them insufficient because they don't believe it. It comes from the same place.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> If your marriage is awful, work on it. Don't just cheat, don't just divorce. Sort the problem.
> 
> Is your happiness the only good? What about the impact of your decision to divorce on others? (spouse and kids for a start). Does a WS deserve to be happy? Even if their happiness is a product of their infidelity?
> 
> I know this is the real world, I know it takes two to make a successful marriage. I know it's not that simple. But the notion that cheating on your partner makes you demon spawn from the seventh hell, but divorcing them because you feel like sex with someone else, then taking them for most of their money, in spite of all the promises you made, is nobel.....I don't buy that.


You do understand the idea of cause and effect, don't you? Adultery is the cause of divorce (and yes I realize that there might be other causes). Sounds to me like you are trying to sell doormats. Also, I have never heard a single person on TAM say that divorce was noble. You are projecting .


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> If your marriage is awful, work on it. Don't just cheat, don't just divorce. Sort the problem.
> 
> Is your happiness the only good? What about the impact of your decision to divorce on others? (spouse and kids for a start). Does a WS deserve to be happy? Even if their happiness is a product of their infidelity?
> 
> I know this is the real world, I know it takes two to make a successful marriage. I know it's not that simple. But the notion that cheating on your partner makes you demon spawn from the seventh hell, but divorcing them because you feel like sex with someone else, then taking them for most of their money, in spite of all the promises you made, is nobel.....I don't buy that.


No, your WS does NOT deserve to be REWARDED for his/her cheating. NEVER....EVER. I'm beginning to wonder if you have any self esteem at all. To actually say that the fault for divorcing is the BS's is idiotic. Look, I believe that a WS should not be condemned without an opportunity to have a fair hearing, but make no mistake, if there is a divorce following adultery , the fault for that divorce is 100% the WS's.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Don't confuse marriage issues with adultery issues. They are not always the same thing.


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## brokeneric (Jan 27, 2014)

Sometimes there are issues in marriage that can't be fixed. A lot of people would disagree with this but sometimes our ego doesn't allow us to see past our own flaws or doesn't allow our spouse's attempts to change or resolve something. Divorce is a dignified way of saying goodbye. But infidelity turns a marriage into a rabid animal with not many options other than putting it down.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> You're right, Healer. That's how they come in. They just want to explain themselves and find a way to make what they did be not so bad. I think that is natural and expected. Nobody wants to feel that they are nothing but selfish, pathetic, possibly delusional and narcissistic people.
> 
> BSs are victims. They didn't ask to be cheated on. But, what if the WS were to have left them instead of cheated? If the BS were neglectful or abusive, would we call them victims or would we say they had it coming? See, the spouse that is left might be just as hurt and not have wanted to be left. There is a lot of shame and failure associated with being left as well.
> 
> ...


That was a very wordy and convoluted way of saying that most BS caused their WS to cheat. 

No marriage is perfect. No BS was perfect. No one is an angel or a saint. Life is difficult, relationships are difficult, being a parent is difficult..so what? That's life. How you choose (read *choose*) to deal with it is what counts.

Speak for yourself, but I'd WAY rather be left than cheated on. 

If you're _that_ ****ing miserable in your marriage, LEAVE. Cheating is diabolical, cruel, and sadistic. It's also voluntary. 

In other words, I think what you typed is utter bunk.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I do believe the amount of pain and denial directly relates to thoughts surrounding the meaning of sex in that individuals life. If the person, man or woman, thinks of sex as just a release and act, but is loving by it's nature, because we are trying to please the other person, there is much less pain at breakup.
> 
> When an individual places a high value on sex, believing they are sharing much more than just an act and release, along with loving actions that attempt to satisfy their partner, they are devastated.


Married people who don't "place a high value on sex" are an incredibly rare breed. Go survey 10,000 people and ask them how they would feel if they knew their SO was bumping uglies with someone else and report back. I'd love to hear how many said "meh, it's just sex. Whatevs!"


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Wazza said:


> If you believe, as I do, that everyone has it within them to cheat, given the wrong circumstances,


Not only do I not believe it, I know for a fact it's not true. That is one of the most asinine things I read on this forum. Perhaps YOU have it within you to cheat. DO NOT presume to speak for people who never did, regardless of the circumstances, opportunity, and even desire.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> I'm not going to reply Fenix except to say this. I did not EQUATE being left to being cheated on. Why would you restate what I said in a way that was clearly not the case? What purpose did it serve?
> 
> You don't have to answer it. I don't really want you to. I'd like you to think about it for yourself. It is important that we don't fall into a place where we cannot see what we don't believe and we don't hear what isn't being said because we are afraid what was really said will ask you to question those beliefs.
> 
> I think questioning those beliefs will ultimately set a BS free.


Sorry, but what a load of dung!


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Fenix said:


> Please stop being patronizing.


Patronizing, condescending and blame shifting to the BS. Oh my!


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

I kinda lost the thread on the cheating/divorce discussion. IMO, cheating introduces a gangrenous infection into the marriage body. When that happens you treat it. If the infection is eliminated you have successful R. If the infection cannot be stopped or keeps recurring, then you have to amputate (D). The amputation destroys the integrity of the marriage body but is preferable to having the infection destroy the overall well being of both partners.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Why is divorcing better than having an affair?


I have a hard time believing this is a serious question.


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## brokeneric (Jan 27, 2014)

Philat said:


> I kinda lost the thread on the cheating/divorce discussion. IMO, cheating introduces a gangrenous infection into the marriage body. When that happens you treat it. If the infection is eliminated you have successful R. If the infection cannot be stopped or keeps recurring, then you have to amputate (D). The amputation destroys the integrity of the marriage body but is preferable to having the infection destroy the overall well being of both partners.


This is the truth.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> I responded appropriately. I am being honest and very sincere.
> 
> Calling it patronizing is dismissive.
> 
> It struck a nerve for a reason. Let it percolate for a while. Don't judge it. Don't fight it. Just let it bounce around.


Wow. You're one antagonistic, patronizing and condescending individual. The people here are smart enough to see through you, so please, stop embarrassing yourself. It's rather nauseating.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

You should thank clip clop for showing up and making us smarter. Nevermind. Ill do it.

Thanks, buddy.

By the way, i asked our teacher if he has ever been cheated on. Still waiting for an answer.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza is a nice guy, but he loves to argue. And will argue a point til the bitter end. For that I admire him. But he almost always comes back to the idea that "anybody has it in them to cheat". He apparently feels that this is profound, but when taken as an argument on infidelity, it is ridiculous. The line between the two is very thin, but very definite. It is a undeniably a true statement, (universally) but is completely beside the point ( morally and legally). It's good to remember what Mel Brooks once said, "one man's tuna, is another man's cat food".


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Wazza is a nice guy, but he loves to argue. And will argue a point til the bitter end. For that I admire him. But he almost always comes back to the idea that "anybody has it in them to cheat". He apparently feels that this is profound, but when taken as an argument on infidelity, it is ridiculous. The line between the two is very thin, but very definite. It is a undeniably a true statement, (universally) but is completely beside the point ( morally and legally). It's good to remember what Mel Brooks once said, "one man's tuna, is another man's cat food".


Indeed.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Headspin*
> you are quoting posts I have not even replied to


Since you have avoided answering the main question below on this issue I say that we do what you said and “us to just leave it”



> *Are you telling me that you did not read that post or all the other posts that she has said she is responsible for cheating? Be honest Headspin*





You say in your previous post for “us to just leave it” yet you post another post to keep it going



> *By Headspin*
> From my many often intense interaction / discussion with her EI she's articulate and intelligent enough without needing you to change and invent posts to argue her case for her


I did not change or invent posts I posted the ENTIRE post just as written.

*Headspin, you are right about one thing and that is that EI is articulate and intelligent enough to make her case without me defending her.
Now let us do as you have suggested and “…Just leave it”[/B]*


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> You do understand the idea of cause and effect, don't you? Adultery is the cause of divorce (and yes I realize that there might be other causes). Sounds to me like you are trying to sell doormats. Also, I have never heard a single person on TAM say that divorce was noble. You are projecting .



You will find many, many people on TAM advocate divorce. Some in this thread. I made this comment in response to Fenix for example.

I think we both agree that divorcing a cheating spouse is a valid option. But think about divorce separate from adultery. 

It's not the main point of the thread, I am going to drop it now. But Indo think you missed my point.


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## spanz (Feb 6, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> I think you are probably correct on both counts. I've always thought, since I came here, this site was about encouraging divorce, not reconciliation. I realised that right after I got here. At least, that was my impression when I was in the throws of pain and depression.


yeah the site is either encouraging divorcing or beating the **** out of the offending spouse. Spying, voice recorders, tapping their messages.

The thing that is seldom discussed is trying to work it out. Either to find what was wrong in the sex life to make the other spouse go looking astray, and fixing it; or making the marriage more of an open one, where the partner is given a hall pass under new but honest/truthful marriage rules and boundaries.

This black and white solution set really does NOT fit in too well with modern marriages! Not sure why those people gravitated to this site.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Wazza is a nice guy, but he loves to argue. And will argue a point til the bitter end. For that I admire him. But he almost always comes back to the idea that "anybody has it in them to cheat". He apparently feels that this is profound, but when taken as an argument on infidelity, it is ridiculous. The line between the two is very thin, but very definite. It is a undeniably a true statement, (universally) but is completely beside the point ( morally and legally). It's good to remember what Mel Brooks once said, "one man's tuna, is another man's cat food".


Profound? Not really. Just important.

I have read many times on TAM that all you have to do to avoid infidelity is pick someone who won't cheat. My point is that is not possible.

Rookie you know that. You basically went through that logic when you gave Sweetie another chance.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

spanz said:


> yeah the site is either encouraging divorcing or beating the **** out of the offending spouse. Spying, voice recorders, tapping their messages.
> 
> The thing that is seldom discussed is trying to work it out. Either to find what was wrong in the sex life to make the other spouse go looking astray, and fixing it; or making the marriage more of an open one, where the partner is given a hall pass under new but honest/truthful marriage rules and boundaries.
> 
> This black and white solution set really does NOT fit in too well with modern marriages! Not sure why those people gravitated to this site.


Certain issues admit to only a black and white resolution. I'm all for open marriages, working on marriages, and reconciliation, but ONLY under HONEST, agreed upon conditions. Anything else can and will cause more drama than it cures.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Certain issues admit to only a black and white resolution. I'm all for open marriages, working on marriages, and reconciliation, but ONLY under HONEST, agreed upon conditions. Anything else can and will cause more drama than it cures.


BTW, this has nothing at all to do with whether it is a "modern" marriage or not, as these issues are no different now than they were 10,000 years ago or will be 10,000 years in the future.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Profound? Not really. Just important.
> 
> I have read many times on TAM that all you have to do to avoid infidelity is pick someone who won't cheat. My point is that is not possible.
> 
> Rookie you know that. You basically went through that logic when you gave Sweetie another chance.


Not really. I opted for a specific course of action , based on a specific pattern of her behavior. I now have a woman , whom I believe will not cheat. Of course she might go bat **** crazy and screw the Dallas Cowboys, but I'm thinking not. Universal Truths have very little specific applications. Does a tree falling in a forest , make a sound, if there is nobody to hear? Why is there Air? The answer is "who gives a sh*t".


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

spanz said:


> yeah the site is either encouraging divorcing or beating the **** out of the offending spouse. Spying, voice recorders, tapping their messages.
> 
> The thing that is seldom discussed is trying to work it out. Either to find what was wrong in the sex life to make the other spouse go looking astray, and fixing it; or making the marriage more of an open one, where the partner is given a hall pass under new but honest/truthful marriage rules and boundaries.
> 
> This black and white solution set really does NOT fit in too well with modern marriages! Not sure why those people gravitated to this site.


Were you cheated on? A bad sex life isn't the only reason people cheat. There are plenty of marriages with a healthy sex life where adultery still occurs. 

LOTS of people on this site "work it out" or attempt to. Have you seen the "Reconciliation" thread? It's massive.

Uhhhh so BS trying to catch their WS using technology - what, is infringing upon said WS's rights? Right.

"Making the marriage more of an open one"...you're joking, right? That's not a marriage. If that's what you want, get single.


----------



## spanz (Feb 6, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Certain issues admit to only a black and white resolution. I'm all for open marriages, working on marriages, and reconciliation, but ONLY under HONEST, agreed upon conditions. Anything else can and will cause more drama than it cures.


yeah I agree 100% there. A marriage has to have honesty. If my spouse wants to shtoop the mailman...as long as she tells me first...it is not cheating, not lying, not ruining the marriage. 

Not saying I would go along with it, but I bet the mail WOULD get delivered much more reliably. hmmm


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## brokeneric (Jan 27, 2014)

spanz said:


> yeah the site is either encouraging divorcing or beating the **** out of the offending spouse. Spying, voice recorders, tapping their messages.
> 
> The thing that is seldom discussed is trying to work it out. Either to find what was wrong in the sex life to make the other spouse go looking astray, and fixing it; or making the marriage more of an open one, where the partner is given a hall pass under new but honest/truthful marriage rules and boundaries.
> 
> This black and white solution set really does NOT fit in too well with modern marriages! Not sure why those people gravitated to this site.


Seriously, bro?


----------



## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

spanz said:


> ...as long as she tells me first...it is not cheating


You should add a disclaimer to any post in which you offer advice.

Something like - 

Disclaimer: *Don't take any of my advice*.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Healer said:


> Have you seen the "Reconciliation" thread?


:scratchhead:
*
Now that you ask, no, I haven't...... at least not for the last few days! Healer, did you do something with Reconciliation thread? LOL *


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

EI said:


> :scratchhead:
> *
> Now that you ask, no, I haven't...... at least not for the last few days! Healer, did you do something with Reconciliation thread? LOL *


Sometimes I like to play internet God and disappear things, just to mess with people. muwahahahaha


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Healer said:


> Sometimes I like to play internet God and disappear things, just to mess with people. muwahahahaha


_*Figured it was one of "you" guys! :cussing:*_

jus' kiddin'


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

*Re: Re: Strange but true.*



Rookie4 said:


> Don't confuse marriage issues with adultery issues. They are not always the same thing.


So once adultery occurs, it erased the entirety of history.

Got it.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

*Re: Re: Strange but true.*



Wazza said:


> Profound? Not really. Just important.
> 
> I have read many times on TAM that all you have to do to avoid infidelity is pick someone who won't cheat. My point is that is not possible.
> 
> Rookie you know that. You basically went through that logic when you gave Sweetie another chance.


This is THE best post ever.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

*Re: Re: Strange but true.*



Healer said:


> Sorry, but what a load of dung!


If you say so.


----------



## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

*Re: Re: Strange but true.*



Healer said:


> Wow. You're one antagonistic, patronizing and condescending individual. The people here are smart enough to see through you, so please, stop embarrassing yourself. It's rather nauseating.


Do you really think those kinds of shaming tactics work on adults? 

Who sees through me? What do they see through? 

How much anti-nausea medication have you actually ingested today?


----------



## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> Do you really think those kinds of shaming tactics work on adults?
> 
> Who sees through me? What do they see through?
> 
> How much anti-nausea medication have you actually ingested today?


You responded, so obviously...


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> So once adultery occurs, it erased the entirety of history.
> 
> Got it.


No, they are two separate sets of problems, that may or may not impact each other or have a causal relationship.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Knowing that there is always a chance of cheating, no matter who you are, only proves to me, marriage is not worth it, unless you don't care about someone else having sex with your spouse. That's an open marriage, to me, and you might as well not be married. No one can guarantee anything. What's the point in being faithful? It's too much work to try to avoid, because there's always a chance, no matter what a person does to avoid it.
> 
> Listen, I know that's a bomb dropping. Please sit back and think before you blow your top and fly off the handle. I need to hear why marriage is worth it.


So what? You take a chance, every breath you take. If you want guarantees in life you are either doomed to be unhappy or you would be catatonic.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Knowing that there is always a chance of cheating, no matter who you are, only proves to me, marriage is not worth it, unless you don't care about someone else having sex with your spouse. That's an open marriage, to me, and you might as well not be married. No one can guarantee anything. What's the point in being faithful? It's too much work to try to avoid, because there's always a chance, no matter what a person does to avoid it.
> 
> Listen, I know that's a bomb dropping. Please sit back and think before you blow your top and fly off the handle. I need to hear why marriage is worth it.


Would you feel better if you weren't married to the person who cheated on you? Reframe the question in terms of relationships, then see if you want to be alone. 

The point in being faithful is that you can live with yourself. Well at least that's it for me.


Heck, my wife cheated, and it's still worth being married to her. Same with other close friends.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Not really. I opted for a specific course of action , based on a specific pattern of her behavior. I now have a woman , whom I believe will not cheat. Of course she might go bat **** crazy and screw the Dallas Cowboys, but I'm thinking not. Universal Truths have very little specific applications. Does a tree falling in a forest , make a sound, if there is nobody to hear? Why is there Air? The answer is "who gives a sh*t".





2ntnuf said:


> I'm not married to her any more. I stayed with her through her cheating. She finally left me and we divorced.
> 
> That's something I may never understand. How can it be worth it? I know it is for some. I don't begrudge you or anyone else. I just don't see it.
> 
> ...


For all that he disagrees with my philosophising, Rookie's approach looks more or less the same as mine. You weigh the risks. 

If Mrs Wazza ever cheats again, I cannot imagine that I would stay, but I don't expect it.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Since you have avoided answering the main question below on this issue I say that we do what you said and “us to just leave it”
> You say in your previous post for “us to just leave it” yet you post another post to keep it going
> I did not change or invent posts I posted the ENTIRE post just as written.
> *Headspin, you are right about one thing and that is that EI is articulate and intelligent enough to make her case without me defending her.
> Now let us do as you have suggested and “…Just leave it”[/B]*


*

I said if you try and dig your way out you'll only disappear deeper ........... :scratchhead:

__________

and actually a burning question I've had for years ......

what on earth IS IT about the ?colored text

(it's okay it doesn't require an answer so please don't - just a thought probably many others have wondered what on earth that is about)*


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

spanz said:


> A marriage has to have honesty. If my spouse wants to shtoop the mailman...*as long as she tells me first...it is not cheating, not lying, not ruining the marriage.*
> 
> Not saying I would go along with it, but I bet the mail WOULD get delivered much more reliably. hmmm


You must be on a wind up, trolling or something because that's well that's beyond a response really

"Yeah I want to bang him and him and oh yeah him as well...at least I'm telling you first darling ...is that okay"? 

"Yeah sure at least you're being honest why not have a go at the guy at no 316 as well" 

Love you so much darling, you fullfill every need I have and I've never been happier than we are right now "

"Aaaaw xxx"


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Only my opinion but there are some bizarre views being expressed in this lively, informative, good and getting more entertaining by the minute thread


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

spanz said:


> yeah I agree 100% there. A marriage has to have honesty. If my spouse wants to shtoop the mailman...as long as she tells me first...it is not cheating, not lying, not ruining the marriage.
> 
> Not saying I would go along with it, but I bet the mail WOULD get delivered much more reliably. hmmm


If she tells you, it's not lying.

If you agree, it's not cheating.

I'm not a believer in open marriages I am afraid. I think there is a very high chance it is ruining the marriage.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

FWIW, coming from a WS, as much as it hurts me to be verbally assaulted when I share my story, on TAM, I find it even more disheartening when a thread dissolves into BS's attacking one another. The fact the these "attacks" began, in part, about whether or not I am sufficiently remorseful is even more troubling. And, it isn't because it really burdens me, too much, anymore, about whether _'everyone'_ believes in my sincerity. At this point, I've shared my story enough times that people have formed their own opinions and they are what they are. What is important is that my husband, and our family, believe in my sincerity, and they do.

It burdens me when BS's attack one another for many reasons. For starters, haven't you all been hurt enough, already? Why do you guys want to break each other down any more than you've already been broken? Second, when this happens, threads become so diluted with the infighting that they lose their entire focus and the purpose for which they began is lost. 

I would like to believe that the whole purpose of these anonymous internet forums would be so that individuals can openly share their experiences, break them down, dissect them, look at them with a magnifying glass, analyze them, gather information, experiment, test, learn and apply. I came here hoping to learn something. I wanted to find help and healing. I think I did find help. B1 and I believe that we are on the path to healing. Healng, BTW, doesn't necessarily mean reconciling. It means making the decisions that are the healthiest for you. 

I'm trying to take what I've learned and share it with others who are still struggling and are not as far along in their journey. I don't want other WS's, or potential WS's, to take the same path that I took before and during my A. In one of my earlier posts on this thread, I said that I have learned from everyone on TAM, even the ones with whom I often disagree, and it's true, I have. Headspin made a comment in one of his earlier posts and it gave me cause to start thinking about something. I just got home from the hospital last night after a 5 day stay there with our special needs son. He had a scheduled surgery and is recovering well. You know, there isn't much sleep in a hospital with all of the lights, noise, uncomfortable chairs, and nurses constantly coming in and out of the room, so I had a lot of time to think.

Headspin, and many others, I'm sure, do not believe that I am sufficiently remorseful because every time I share my story, I repeatedly share, over and over, in great detail, all of B1's shortcomings, all of my complaints about him, and all of my hurts and disappointments, pre-A, about B1. Then, I follow it by saying that I accept 100% of the blame for my decision to have an affair. I can see where that might appear somewhat insincere. 

My story is a long one. I've shared it many times. I'm sure TAMers get tired of reading it. I know I get tired of writing it. Maybe I have been taking it for granted that people could read between the lines and understand my motives for sharing my story in the way that I do. So, Headspin, here is my answer. I share my story, the way that I do, in such great detail because I am trying to speak to the lurkers. I am trying to reach the 'potential' future WS's (women, in particular) who may be in marriages that are similar to my pre-A marriage. Because, contrary to popular belief, some pre-A marriages really do suck..... Mine did for a very long time. I didn't rewrite our history. I know that a lot of you guys were perfect husbands (pun intended ) and were completely blindsided (no pun intended, there) by your spouse's betrayal. So, your stories are not going to 'reach' someone like me (three years ago.) When BS's share their stories and talk about their nearly perfect, or just mildly troubled marriages, and then describe their shock and devastation at being betrayed, well, it just isn't going to resonate with someone who is sitting in my pre-A shoes. 

Before my A, had I read some of your stories, I would have been just as shocked and horrified as you. But, I would have honestly thought that if you had only known 'my' story that you would surely 'understand.' (Trust me, I don't think that, now. ) Because my marriage really was awful. Do you understand? I'm trying to speak to the person who is in so much pain that they feel "justified." I hope that I'm making sense. I'm trying to reach women who were miserable, whose husbands were disconnected, emotionally unavailable, physically disinterested. I'm trying to reach the person who tried everything to "fix" their marriage. I'm trying to reach the spouse who chose, for whatever reason, that divorce was out of the question (at least for the time being,) I'm trying to reach someone who felt hopeless, helpless, desperate and trapped. I want them to know that I did it. I crossed the line. I had a 15 month EA/PA. And, guess what. IT WASN'T WORTH IT. The damage is incomprehensible. 

I'm trying to reach.... ME...... three years ago...... yesterday, February, 10, 2011, I sent a friend request on Facebook to an old flame. No matter how miserable you are, no matter how trapped you may actually be, no matter how distant you feel from your disconnected husband...... This isn't even about whether or not he loves you or you love him. It's really about you. Don't do it. Your marriage may or may not end. But, you will have to live with yourself every day for the rest of your life. I'm telling you that it was not worth it. I was miserable and I had very valid reasons to be bitter, and resentful, and angry towards my husband. He bears the blame for many things, particularly for refusing to work with me on our marriage despite my pleadings. But, I am the one who chose to have an affair. For that, I am 100% responsible. I have to live with that. It wasn't worth it.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> Do you really think those kinds of shaming tactics work on adults?


Hardly an issue in this case, is it?


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

EI said:


> FWIW, coming from a WS, as much as it hurts me to be verbally assaulted when I share my story, on TAM, I find it even more disheartening when a thread dissolves into BS's attacking one another. The fact the these "attacks" began, in part, about whether or not I am sufficiently remorseful is even more troubling. And, it isn't because it really burdens me, too much, anymore, about whether _'everyone'_ believes in my sincerity. At this point, I've shared my story enough times that people have formed their own opinions and they are what they are. What is important is that my husband, and our family, believe in my sincerity, and they do.
> 
> It burdens me when BS's attack one another for many reasons. For starters, haven't you all been hurt enough, already? Why do you guys want to break each other down any more than you've already been broken? Second, when this happens, threads become so diluted with the infighting that they lose their entire focus and the purpose for which they began is lost.
> 
> ...


Have to say EI I do feel for you, yes I do, and can see just how much irreparable damage it has all done to you too.

I think you are a living lesson in 'realization' that simply came too late but at least you now I think completely understand the gravity of your actions 

Well done for owning it 

I don't think we'll ever agree on how to deal with new wspouses that arrive here on TAM but that's as maybe

For what it's worth I do think YOU have worth. I do think your story and your reflections upon it now years later do have a high value for anyone lurking who just maybe be thinking what you used to think about your situation and lets face it, if you help change just one potential waywards mind you are saving an awful lot of people an awful lot of sh!t so although we often do not agree that's really not important . 

What is important is your message to those that may be tempted that may trangress


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

EI said:


> .....Headspin, and many others, I'm sure, do not believe that I am sufficiently remorseful because every time I share my story, I repeatedly share, over and over, in great detail, all of B1's shortcomings, all of my complaints about him, and all of my hurts and disappointments, pre-A, about B1. Then, I follow it by saying that I accept 100% of the blame for my decision to have an affair. *I can see where that might appear somewhat insincere.....*


okay Blunt clop clip or ... are you reading that above
I think that just might keep you a bit quiet for a while


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

Sincere, heartfelt testimony, given without reservation, finds the people it needs to find. 

Really, I have no right to be on this forum--no infidelity in my marriage. Thank God--because CWI, like being an sober alcoholic (which I am) is a club with strong bonds among members that nevertheless no one in their right mind WANTS to belong in. 

But I did find my way here, even though I don't belong, because I was seeking courage to talk to my wife about things that are not going right in our marriage--especially sex---which is unbelievably hard to talk for me to talk about, and her too I believe. B1 and EI's story has been huge to me, because the problems EI and B1 so carefully flag in their marriage prior to the A are similar to ours, and reached me right away as a cautionary tale of where letting ours fester might lead.

So it was that precursor part of their story--the troubles pre-A--that turned the key for me, and the unfathomable pain they endured that gives me the courage I need to tackle our problems head on. 

EI says she wants to reach the pre-waywards, and I can see how vital and that is, especially to EI for her own healing. But the story B1 and EI tell, and the specific way they tell it, helps other folks in other situations too -- or at least, it helped me.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

owl6118 said:


> Sincere, heartfelt testimony, given without reservation, finds the people it needs to find.
> 
> Really, I have no right to be on this forum--no infidelity in my marriage. Thank God--becuase CWI, like being an sober alcoholic (which I am) is a club with strong bonds among members that nevertheless no one in their right mind WANTS to belong in.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for sharing that, owl! It makes me beyond ecstatic to know that someone could see themselves in our story before their marriage suffered the ultimate betrayal, and actively began communicating with their spouse to seek ways to improve their relationship. 

Since you've posted, I hope you won't mind me sharing that you, B1, and I have exchanged several pm's where you have shared a part of your story with us. THIS is why I tell my story the way that I do. B1 and I actually receive quite a few of these types of pm's from former lurkers. I don't share their stories. That's up to them. 

I hope you'll continue sharing yours with us. I'm very happy for you and your wife.


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

EI said:


> Thank you so much for sharing that, owl! ...
> 
> I hope you'll continue sharing yours with us. I'm very happy for you and your wife.


It's the least I could do.

As for sharing, I will think on it. Not here, it belongs on another forum. And it may take a while. My story has just begun, I don't know where it will go, and the subject is still too painfully private for me to be able to share in real time right now. 

I hope your son continues to recover safely and comfortably.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I have read o lot of posts from EI and B1. 
When EI first arrived on TAM, she was doing some rationalization, justifying, and blameshifting for her infidelity.

That soon changed however and it was very eye opening to watch her progress.

I think if everyone were as clearly honest as EI and B1, with there feelings, motivations, and circumstances, there would be far greater understanding of infidelity and its many colors.

If there is one thing I have discovered, it is that all cheating is not the same, though all infidelity has similarly.

EI. Have you discovered any mechanism that might have improved your marriage prior to your A?

Have you and B1 discussed what could have worked to snap him out of the dumps without going outside of the marriage?

That information could be very valuable. 

Again, thank you for how much you have contributed and how much you have been willing to share.

While I have avoided infidelity, this forum has helped me strengthen my marriage.


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> EI. Have you discovered any mechanism that might have improved your marriage prior to your A?
> 
> Have you and B1 discussed what could have worked to snap him out of the dumps without going outside of the marriage?
> 
> That information could be very valuable.


Not EI of B1, but one thing I can add from my own experience: depression is deadly. It kills. 

Part of my story is plunging into major depression for the first time in my life. I had always had the blues and thought I knew all about depression. I didn't know squat. Major depression is qualitatively different from anything I have ever experienced. The pain of knowing that you need to simply get up out of bed, or once up that you need to answer just one email, and struggling for 12 straight hours to do so, and failing, can't be described.

You die inside, but your family suffers too. For three years my wife had to watch me struggle, knowing and accepting that there was little she could do to "fix" me. And dealing with all that fell on her shoulders while I was impaired.

If you are depressed, you often can't find help for yourself by yourself. But for the love of God, reach for every remaining ounce of will and courage and self-esteem you have left, and use it all to please tell someone you love where you're at. Lean on them to help you find treatment. 

For me, therapy worked, drugs didn't. But the therapy had to be combined with huge changes in my life--including abandoning an entire career cold, and starting a totally new one from scratch that better fits the person I really have become and now am.

From what I read here, infidelity is depression times infinity. But depression is a destroyer on its own. 

Reach out. Reach out.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

You Were Gone - YouTube Raspberries, anyone?


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> EI. Have you discovered any mechanism that might have improved your marriage prior to your A?
> 
> Have you and B1 discussed what could have worked to snap him out of the dumps without going outside of the marriage?
> 
> That information could be very valuable.



God only knows how many times B1 and I have had this conversation in the last 20 months. But, you know that I am not prone to short responses and I'm playing catch up at home this morning and I have to file our taxes this afternoon. It would truly be a huge thread jack to go into all of this on Rookie's thread. Hopefully, the R thread will eventually reappear. If it does I will post there. If not, when I have some time, I may start a new thread. Although it's a lot less pressure to post on someone's else thread. (Don't ask me why..... I don't know.) :scratchhead:


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> You Were Gone - YouTube Raspberries, anyone?


Rookie, it isn't very wise to drink and post!


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

EI said:


> Rookie, it isn't very wise to drink and post!


LOL. Reminds me of a scene from that movie Raw Deal with Schwarzenegger, when he comes home to find his drunken wife has made him a cake that reads "Eat Sh*T" on it and she throws it at him. 

His response? "You should not drink and bake".


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> You Were Gone - YouTube Raspberries, anyone?


My grandma always laughed herself silly every time that show came on!:smthumbup:


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

Another thought:

In some cases, it all comes down to the speaker's MOTIVE for telling a story a certain way, and including certain things. EI has always told the same story. It's what her story means to her now is that is totally different.

From the beginning EI always included the flaws in her marriage with B1 prior to her Affair when she told her story. In the beginning, her motive for doing so was to excuse, justify, minimize her responsibility for her choice.

But when she tells her story NOW, from her current and (I am confident forever) position of remorse, her motive in including the prior problems is actually the OPPOSITE. She is not now trying to excuse her choice--she is trying to emphasize that nothing--not even frickin' huge real problems--justifies the choice she made.

What she is now doing (I suspect) is walking herself in her mind back into where she was at, at the moment she made her first irrevocable bad choice. But now her purpose in remembering it all and telling it all is to understand the same question B1 asked her over and over: Why. Why did she not choose otherwise, at that time, in that moment, despite that history, and no matter what the perceived justification? 

There will never be an answer that makes it better. 

I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I think the differing reactions to EI's way of telling her story are simply this: some believe the change from motive 1 to motive 2 can never be fully made. For me, I believe it can and did happen without reservation.

B1 has also always included in his story from the beginning the pre-A problems in his marriage. Early on he got clobbered at times for scrupulously including this. No doubt it was right early on to caution him against the trap of excusing himself what happened, or justifying it himself, out of compassion for his wife. 

When B1 includes those pre-A problems in his story now though, I hear in him something similar to the way a sober alcoholic understands his story. Alcoholism is a disease, and in a very real sense, it is the disease that causes the damage to relationships, not the person. But here's the paradox: to get better, the alcoholic must voluntarily accept, embrace, and own responsibility for the damage he did anyway. It's the only way he can forgive himself and others too.

B1 instinctively knew this from the get go. Like an alcoholic, B1 in a real moral sense is not responsible for the destruction depression and hormone imbalance wreaked--they are illnesses not character flaws. But because he is a deeply wise man, he always knew from the very beginning that owning it anyway was the only way up and out. It was his key to not blaming himself, to forgiving himself, and to meeting his wife where she was at.

Unless I'm just projecting, which G-d knows I might be.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> EI,
> 
> I didn't read all of that long post, but I really am not angry with anyone in this thread. Just in case you got the wrong impression. These guys are just giving their opinions. Their lives haven't changed mine by questioning and answering. It's all good, as far as I'm concerned.


*WHAT? * Are you telling me that you don't read every single word of every post that I type? 


I'm crushed! 

It wasn't you....... 

They know who they are!


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

owl6118 said:


> Another thought:
> 
> Like an alcoholic, B1 in a real moral sense is not responsible for the destruction depression and hormone imbalance wreaked--they are illnesses not character flaws. But because he is a deeply wise man, he always knew from the very beginning that owning it anyway was the only way up and out. It was his key to not blaming himself, to forgiving himself, and to meeting his wife where she was at.
> 
> Unless I'm just projecting, which G-d knows I might be.


I really appreciate this post. And, yes, I've told B1 this, myself. I do not blame him for having low-T or depression. I had also suffered through a 3 year battle with clinical depression from 2004-2007, after the deaths of my brother, followed by my father, just 16 days later. Both deaths were sudden and unexpected. I think I was in a state of shock for a while. 

So, I completely understood the paralyzingly nature of depression. B1 was suffering from depression, as well. I did dig deep to find that last ounce of will to seek help for myself. Then, I tried to help B1. He wasn't having any of it. I wanted him to lead us up and out. He said he couldn't. He didn't have it in him. I begged him to take my hand and let me pull him out. I was planning to kick his ass later. He said, "No, this is our lot in life. Accept it." I said that I couldn't. 

I wasn't angry that he was ill. I was becoming bitter and resentful that he wouldn't get help. He wouldn't even let me help him. I resented him for not getting treatment sooner. Especially, after he was diagnosed with low-T. He still wouldn't follow through with the prescribed treatment of Testosterone and IC/MC. I gave up. I told him I was finished. I told him that I would have passion in my life with or without him. I might as well have said that we were out of milk. At some point, on his own, he finally started taking Testosterone. By then, I was already gone. About 10 days before D-Day, it was like B1 went to sleep one night and a different man woke up in his body the next morning. It's been an interesting ride since then.

You must stick around and continue posting, owl. I like your insight.


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

EI said:


> About 10 days before D-Day, it was like B1 went to sleep one night and a different man woke up in his body the next morning. It's been an interesting ride since then.


To be clear, yes, the owning it refers exclusively to what happened after this point, not earlier. This point is the "from the beginning" I alluded to. A drunk doesn't own it until after he quits drinking either. Sometimes quite a while after. Sometimes never.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> So what? You take a chance, every breath you take. If you want guarantees in life you are either doomed to be unhappy or you would be catatonic.


Oh I beg to differ. I can guarantee I'll never be cheated on again and will be quite happy. I simply will never again make a commitment to a woman and anyone I develop any kind of "romantic" interest in will know that up front.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> The only trouble with that, vellocet, is I know for certain, the couple of women I dated between marriages, did actually cheat on me.


The only way they can cheat on me is if I had a commitment to them.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Oh I beg to differ. I can guarantee I'll never be cheated on again and will be quite happy. I simply will never again make a commitment to a woman and anyone I develop any kind of "romantic" interest in will know that up front.


I can't comprehend that. My heart would not let me be that detached.

If it works for you, great, but for me the good times outweigh the bad. It's worth the risk.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I can't comprehend that. My heart would not let me be that detached.
> 
> If it works for you, great, but for me the good times outweigh the bad. It's worth the risk.


To each their own...I don't begrudge anyone happiness.

Sadly, my stbxw's infidelity made that part of me (the ability to love a woman and give myself to her) dead. It's not that I'm not willing, it's that I'm dead inside in that way. I love my children with all my heart, I love my family, I love music.

But romantic love? I can't fathom it, and that's pretty damn sad.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Healer said:


> To each their own...I don't begrudge anyone happiness.
> 
> Sadly, my stbxw's infidelity made that part of me (the ability to love a woman and give myself to her) dead. It's not that I'm not willing, it's that I'm dead inside in that way. I love my children with all my heart, I love my family, I love music.
> 
> But romantic love? I can't fathom it, and that's pretty damn sad.


Give it time.

You joined 6/13? Is that when D Day occurred? If so, you are still early in the process...as am I. Who knows what the future holds.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Healer said:


> To each their own...I don't begrudge anyone happiness.
> 
> Sadly, my stbxw's infidelity made that part of me (the ability to love a woman and give myself to her) dead. It's not that I'm not willing, it's that I'm dead inside in that way. I love my children with all my heart, I love my family, I love music.
> 
> But romantic love? I can't fathom it, and that's pretty damn sad.



I'be been there. It sucks. I remember having the goal to raise my kids, and when my obligation was done to them, who cares? Then I "met someone" as I mentioned earlier, and realised that I do still have a heart. 

For me that came with the temptation to cheat. I suddenly realised I was in love. If you are divorcing, for you it will be a new beginning. But it will come. Probably when you least expect it.

I will never love in the same way as I did when I was twenty, and I will always know that things could fall apart. But what I have now is deeper and more real than I could imagine back then.

Don't give up.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Fenix said:


> Give it time.
> 
> You joined 6/13? Is that when D Day occurred? If so, you are still early in the process...as am I. Who knows what the future holds.


Dday was Nov, 2012. False R from Dec 2012-Feb 2013. I ended R in Feb 2013, so 1 year ago fully separated.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I'be been there. It sucks. I remember having the goal to raise my kids, and when my obligation was done to them, who cares? Then I "met someone" as I mentioned earlier, and realised that I do still have a heart.
> 
> For me that came with the temptation to cheat. I suddenly realised I was in love. If you are divorcing, for you it will be a new beginning. But it will come. Probably when you least expect it.
> 
> ...


I hope you're right.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Healer said:


> Dday was Nov, 2012. False R from Dec 2012-Feb 2013. I ended R in Feb 2013, so 1 year ago fully separated.


 . I think a false R could be even more painful...it just draws it out. I can understand being leery. I don't know your story. In my case, the betrayal was so 'ridiculous', the choice was obvious and it was a clean break. Much easier.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I'm not totally in disagreement about never marrying again, 2.

I don't know your age but if you have had a family once, I can see not marrying again. Maybe at retirement perhaps make another commitment. 

Don't rule anything out though. Keep your mind open. 

Examine yourself. Get strong. And that doesn't mean so independent you can never lean on anyone. It means you won't die if you have to draw a line that ends a relationship that isn't good for you.

Ending a bad relationship frees you up for a good one.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Originally Posted by Healer*
> To each their own...I don't begrudge anyone happiness.
> 
> Sadly, my stbxw's infidelity made that part of me (the ability to love a woman and give myself to her) dead. It's not that I'm not willing, it's that I'm dead inside in that way. I love my children with all my heart, I love my family, I love music.
> ...


.




*
The only part of Romanic love that I lost was the strong belief that she would NEVER betray me or be grossly selfish. I thought that she would always choose me no matter what. Frankly, I am glad that I lost that as that is Naive and leaves you vulnerable for deeper pain. It does take a while to adjust.

I still get excited and warm feelings when we hug, kiss, have a good dinner and movie, etc.
It took me a few years but I got romantic love back

I will repeat what Wazza said and say DON”T GIVE UP
You can get a lot back if you want to.*


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Or, as in My case, you can divorce , go and check out the wildlife, then try to R, if you still want to. It might work or it might not, but I think it's better than having to suck it up and accept the idea of somebody else boinking your partner, and all of the angst that creates. I guess it all depends on how much of the sh*t sandwich you are willing to swallow. I wasn't willing to swallow ANY of it.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Rookie's 3 rules squared. 1. BLAME the WS, 100% for the affair, 50% for the marriage problems, 0% for your own weaknesses. 2.Accept no excuses BY the WS, make no excuses FOR the WS, Both of you accept that adultery is inexcusable. 3.Reconcile if you can, separate if it helps, divorce if you must...... 3 x 3, works for me.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf, you will live as well as you allow yourself to. Don't feel sorry for yourself, make your life anything you want, but make whatever life you lead, your own.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Thanks for the nice sentiments, Rookie4. I appreciate that.


You are very welcome. It can be tough, but you can do it. Sh*t, if I can, anybody can.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Rookie's 3 rules squared. 1. BLAME the WS, 100% for the affair, 50% for the marriage problems, 0% for your own weaknesses. 2.Accept no excuses BY the WS, make no excuses FOR the WS, Both of you accept that adultery is inexcusable. 3.Reconcile if you can, separate if it helps, divorce if you must...... 3 x 3, works for me.



So how come we argue sometimes when we see this stuff exactly the same? 

I will only add into 2 to not allow excuses for yourself either. You might not need that. I did at the time. And I see you covered that in post 316.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> So how come we argue sometimes when we see this stuff exactly the same?
> 
> I will only add into 2 to not allow excuses for yourself either. You might not need that. I did at the time. And I see you covered that in post 316.


It's because you keep on with the New Age, feel good crapola. Well, ANYBODY can cheat. My was a very high minded , honorable woman., ETc. (That is until she rubbed knickers with some Palooka). Aren't those excuses? Of course they are, and you use them all of the time. You use them like some kind of free get out of jail cards. You're a nice guy , Waz, but whereas I won't take a bite of the crap sandwich, you will make the sandwich for yourself.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

You accept your wife's actions and make excuses for her. I won't accept my wife's actions and demand change.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Rookie, regarding your rules, what does reconcile if you can mean?

And shouldn't it be divorce if you want, not must?


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

It seems to me no one has a obligation to even attempt to reconcile. The vows were destroyed the second the legs were spread.

Reconciling is a gift not a right.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

illwill said:


> It seems to me no one has a obligation to even attempt to reconcile. The vows were destroyed the second the legs were spread.
> 
> Reconciling is a gift not a right.


Yes.

And often, it is a downright stupid gift.

I get the sense that some think the choice to reconcile is braver/better than divorce.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Oh no...I think divorce must be devastating! I am very lucky that my husband did not divorce me. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to start completely over....with baggage.
> Divorced people who are the victims of infidelity have to still forgive and heal and they have to do it without the help of their spouse. I think it must be harder!
> 
> When reconciling..your WS has to do the work to help you as the bs heal. Healing after divorce must be so very difficult.


It really depends on the situation.

My sister is a Marriage/Family therapist. She deals with a lot of reconciling couples. Her take on it is that most true reconciliations take at least 10 years for recovery. And those years are hard work. She believes, as do I, when the WS is a serial cheater, it is impossible.

The possible stupidity of the gift refers to when the spouse is incapable (for whatever reason) of helping and/or if the decision to reconcile is due to fear. If I had reconciled, I would have lost all self respect. My choice would not have been from love (he killed that), but from fear.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Would you consider remarriage, Fenix?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

illwill said:


> Rookie, regarding your rules, what does reconcile if you can mean?
> 
> And shouldn't it be divorce if you want, not must?


Semantics. I know what he means.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Fenix said:


> Yes.
> 
> And often, it is a downright stupid gift.
> 
> I get the sense that some think the choice to reconcile is braver/better than divorce.


Divorce is scary. Being a single dad, keeping the house, cooking, taking care of everything on your own, the FINANCIAL aspect. It's not a competition as to what's worse, but divorce is scary as ****. On the other hand, staying with my WW would've been worse - the inner turmoil and the struggle within were simply too much for me to bare. Lesser of 2 evils, I suppose.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Oh no...I think divorce must be devastating! I am very lucky that my husband did not divorce me. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to start completely over....with baggage.
> Divorced people who are the victims of infidelity have to still forgive and heal and they have to do it without the help of their spouse. I think it must be harder!
> 
> When reconciling..your WS has to do the work to help you as the bs heal. Healing after divorce must be so very difficult.


It's the decimation of everything...your life. The collateral damage of infidelity is vast, and divorce is like putting down a grievously wounded animal. It's sad, painful, heartbreaking, terrifying...and sometimes necessary.

You're definitely a lucky woman. My stbxw was served with her papers last month. She's a depressed, lonely woman full of regret.

This from her yesterday:

"I still love you very much. And what you think really affects me. I know it shouldn't but you broke me today. My heart will never love anybody like you...never."

Stuff like this confuses me. I'll never understand the mind of a cheater.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Like many others, I and my ex wife invested our individual lives to make a life together. Well, that life together has come undone. It's always better to try to repair something, than it is to throw it away and get a new one.........But only if you can.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Oh no...I think divorce must be devastating! I am very lucky that my husband did not divorce me. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to start completely over....with baggage.
> Divorced people who are the victims of infidelity have to still forgive and heal and they have to do it without the help of their spouse. I think it must be harder!
> 
> When reconciling..your WS has to do the work to help you as the bs heal. Healing after divorce must be so very difficult.


Healing is going to take place. With the WS or without the WS. What KIND of healing it is going to be, matters more than whether you heal together, or apart. Two healthy, divorced people are better than one half-a**ed marriage.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> Would you consider remarriage, Fenix?


Sure.  

To someone who is very secure in themselves, places a premium on loyalty and honesty and has my back. My stbx had none of these characteristics, and when asked why he behaved a certain way, turned it back on me. It was always my fault. He was seen as a very good guy in our circle of friends. I let myself be brainwashed. That's on me.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Lord knows I'm no genius, but it seems to me that after adultery, the single most important thing is for BOTH parties to heal, improve their lives, become better people, and learn to live life to the fullest. 
After D day, I simply could not reconcile or forgive, without divorce. It wasn't in me to even try. Since divorce, we tried our best to recapture the lost love we once had, but it wasn't to be. But we managed to do everything else. We forgave, we renewed our respect for each other, we became better people, and we are living our lives as we choose. I don't think that is anything to sneeze at.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Like many others, I and my ex wife invested our individual lives to make a life together. Well, that life together has come undone. It's always better to try to repair something, than it is to throw it away and get a new one.........But only if you can.


Its better to try to keep it, if there is still value. Many dont see value in marriage with a cheater. For the most part im in that club. There are a few waywards worth it, but most are simply not.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

This thread is starting to shape up quite nicely. There is an interesting mix of posters who are commenting, yet there is a level of courtesy that has enabled a beneficial conversation to take place. 

I think the debate over reconciling vs. divorcing is similar to the the debate over SAHM's vs. working moms. There isn't a right, or a wrong, or a one size fits all approach, that works for everyone. Every individual has to decide, for themselves, what path to take. Everyone must choose what will be the happiest, healthiest, and most beneficial choice for themselves, and for their loved ones, moving forward. 

Everyone should be given the opportunity to share their own story, in their own way. When you share your story, you quickly realize that you are opening yourselves up to the opinions, analysis, and scrutiny of others. It's up to each individual to choose whose opinions have value and whom to disregard. It's very possible that you can disagree with someone's choices, but agree with their right to make them. 

I slept late. My meds haven't completely kicked in, yet. I hope that didn't come out as complete gibberish.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Oh no...I think divorce must be devastating! I am very lucky that my husband did not divorce me. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to start completely over....with baggage.
> Divorced people who are the victims of infidelity have to still forgive and heal and they have to do it without the help of their spouse. I think it must be harder!
> 
> When reconciling..your WS has to do the work to help you as the bs heal. Healing after divorce must be so very difficult.


My ex wanted to help me heal. I told her i will let the leggy 23 year old do it instead.

Much easier to heal without a living and breathing trigger.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> It's because you keep on with the New Age, feel good crapola. Well, ANYBODY can cheat. My was a very high minded , honorable woman., ETc. (That is until she rubbed knickers with some Palooka). Aren't those excuses? Of course they are, and you use them all of the time. You use them like some kind of free get out of jail cards. You're a nice guy , Waz, but whereas I won't take a bite of the crap sandwich, you will make the sandwich for yourself.


No excuses. No get out of jail free cards. Just an attempt to form an honest character assessment of my wife to decide whether reconciliation was an option.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> You accept your wife's actions and make excuses for her. I won't accept my wife's actions and demand change.


Forgiveness is not acceptance. Understanding is not acceptance. She does it again, she's gone.

What did you demand that I didn't?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

illwill said:


> It seems to me no one has a obligation to even attempt to reconcile. The vows were destroyed the second the legs were spread.
> 
> Reconciling is a gift not a right.


For me kids complicate this, otherwise I agree with you,


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Oh no...I think divorce must be devastating! I am very lucky that my husband did not divorce me. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to start completely over....with baggage.
> Divorced people who are the victims of infidelity have to still forgive and heal and they have to do it without the help of their spouse. I think it must be harder!
> 
> When reconciling..your WS has to do the work to help you as the bs heal. Healing after divorce must be so very difficult.


I need to think about that. For me, my wife was just a great big trigger for years. But then she wasn't all that helpful. She had her own issues to deal with. I think it was probably harder to heal with her than without, and no guarantees.

I think hit was the right decision for me, and I don't regret it, but I totally get those who choose to start over.

Sorry, hope this doesn't make your situation harder.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Forgiveness is not acceptance. Understanding is not acceptance.


QFT. One can forgive (whatever that means to oneself) without:

forgetting
reconciling
accepting
trusting
understanding
etc.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Healer said:


> It's the decimation of everything...your life. The collateral damage of infidelity is vast, and divorce is like putting down a grievously wounded animal. It's sad, painful, heartbreaking, terrifying...and sometimes necessary.
> 
> You're definitely a lucky woman. My stbxw was served with her papers last month. She's a depressed, lonely woman full of regret.
> 
> ...


Healer, your stbx seems to be stuck in a really bad place. What do you say to her when she fires these missiles your way?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Philat said:


> Healer, your stbx seems to be stuck in a really bad place. What do you say to her when she fires these missiles your way?


I don't respond generally. But yesterday, which was an all out text war (incredibly unhealthy for me and left me with ****ing anxiety *all day* today - feeling sick), I replied with "OK, truce...". I just didn't want to fight her anymore. Yesterday she set me off by asking me to take the kids on one of her days. This triggered me and we spent all day battling. That's unusual these days - I generally don't respond at all or respond with 1 or 2 word answers if I need to (stuff about kids).

I'm an idiot for engaging and I'm paying the consequences today.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> If a woman and I are dating steady, I pretty much think there needs to be a commitment for me to really open up and start sharing things. If I take a woman out for a date a couple of times, there is no issue. I don't care for jumping from woman to woman. I'd rather date someone steady for a while and then make a decision to continue, if we both decide that, after a couple or four dates.


I understand what you are saying. But the point was when someone says that nobody can guarantee that they will not be cheated on, that's false. There IS a way.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Healer said:


> I don't respond generally. But yesterday, which was an all out text war (incredibly unhealthy for me and left me with ****ing anxiety *all day* today - feeling sick), I replied with "OK, truce...". I just didn't want to fight her anymore. Yesterday she set me off by asking me to take the kids on one of her days. This triggered me and we spent all day battling. That's unusual these days - I generally don't respond at all or respond with 1 or 2 word answers if I need to (stuff about kids).
> 
> I'm an idiot for engaging and I'm paying the consequences today.


It sucks. Hope you're better tomorrow.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

late to the thread but just commenting on the OP. If WS's can't handle seeing the pain they caused with their infidelity, or be willing to do the hard work needed to repair the marriage that they are heavily advised to do by people on TAM, then they are free to go where other cheaters will coddle them.

It may seem to an unkeen observer that this site is pro-divorce, but in fact this sight is all about promoting healthy relationships.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

vellocet said:


> I understand what you are saying. But the point was when someone says that nobody can guarantee that they will not be cheated on, that's false. There IS a way.


How do you do that? What happens when you start getting too close to someone, getting too emotionally invested?

To me commitment arises from the heart. I can control the external appearance of it, to am extent at least. And I do that. But what I feel inside is another matter.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Philat said:


> QFT. One can forgive (whatever that means to oneself) without:
> 
> forgetting
> reconciling
> ...


Absolutely. One can even forgive when the perpetrator's remorse is questionable or even absent. Forgiving is not forgetting, reconciling, accepting, trusting or understanding.

Forgiving is truly something that we do for ourselves much more than for those who have hurt us. Forgiving means that the grip of the transgression/transgressor is no longer holding our emotions hostage. The transgression no longer has the power to dominate our thoughts, our feelings, our actions, or our healing. 

I have an older brother who is mentally ill. He is bipolar and has not been treated for it for many years. Throughout the course of my life, I have directly and indirectly been the "beneficiary" of many of his transgressions. Many against me, as well as against my family, my parents, (who are, now, deceased) and even his own children. I've spent a lot of my life picking up the pieces of the remains of his transgressions. 

I can tell you that I spent a good deal of time in my 20's and 30's hating him. I hated him with such an intensity that it made me physically ill, at times. I got sick of being sick. I got sick of being filled with such an intensely negative feeling of dread and hatred that I finally came to understand the real concept of forgiveness. Forgiveness was for my benefit and it did not depend on him. It didn't even depend on him being sorry. The truth is, unforgiveness can play terrible games with our mind and with our health. It can leave us feeling confused, and overwhelmed, with a false sense of guilt, that leaves us vulnerable to manipulation. 

I realized that I would never really know if my brother was sorry when he said he was. I'm not even sure if even HE knew whether he was truly sorry. He may have truly thought he was sorry, today, but that wouldn't prevent him from trying to screw me over again, tomorrow, if given the opportunity. Every time I gave him an inch, he took a mile, and then complained that I wouldn't give him 2 miles. I could not get over his audacity. But, I was allowing it. I was enabling him to take advantage of me because I was trapped in the false guilt of unforgiveness. I didn't understand that I could forgive him even if I could never "make" him be sorry. So, his remorse could not be the criteria for me to forgive. 

I wanted so badly to be released from those horrible feelings. They were very oppressive. It took me several years, but forgiveness came in an instant, when I had a lightbulb moment and realized that I was in control of my forgiveness. So, I forgave him. I gave him a complete blank check on every single past transgression that he had committed against me. Although, I will never forget his transgressions, I no longer bring them up, dwell on them, remind him of them, or hold them against him. But, I no longer allow him to manipulate me, either. I have very healthy boundaries where he is concerned. I don't trust him, but that is his cross to bear, not mine. He isn't trustworthy. Unfortunately for him, I will likely never give him the opportunity to gain my trust, again, because he has manipulated me so many times that I don't allow him to be close enough to me to take advantage of me. I'm not mad at him. I truly wish him nothing but the very best. I don't get angry or suffer any anxiety or dread when I think about him. I, actually, love him very much. But, for my own health and well-being, I choose to love him from a distance. We no longer have a typical brother/sister relationship. I don't need him in my life. But, on the occasion that there is an extended family gathering, such as a funeral, or a recent family reunion, during the holidays, I was genuinely happy to see him. I will never understand everything about him or about his illness. I can neither control or fix him and I am not responsible for his choices, nor will I, ever again, willingly pay the consequences for his poor choices. 

Letting go of my "unforgiveness" towards my brother, released me from any kind of hold or false guilt that he may have been able use to manipulate me. It allowed me the ability to be in control of my emotions and to establish firm boundaries in my relationship with him.

That's what forgiveness did for me. Does anyone else see any parallels, here?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Well thread is moving on or sideways or..whatever it's good tho 

Forgiveness is a something that I, in all my years, understand less now more than ever 

In the sense I see forgiveness defined on here and generally I absolutely will never ever forgive stxw. Not a chance. I was so wrong about a person as it is possible to be. She turned out to be a serial marriage home/wrecker of other people, without a shred of remorse. I've discovered more about her darker side since we split than the 15 years I was with her - simply staggering. I'm ashamed, as if I was married to a murderer for 15 years. 
Being apart has given me to the time and space to piece together her life and how she lead it and I cannot believe I put up with, supported and loved someone so deeply who in the end had zero respect for me and kept proving that. 

Do I forget any of it ? Never - it remains, all aspects of her behavior are as clear, will be as indelibly etched in my mind so long as I have full mental health for the rest of my days 

Do I think about it all day long ? no I used to but that's much much less now 
My focus in life is beyond all that - I have to worry about work and sustaining / getting the kids lives together which helps in no small way 

Is it as impactive upon my life in terms of moving on in other new relationships ? Absolutely - my trust is at ground zero. There's no way I would inflict my current existence upon a good 'normal' person. I'm in no position to allow my heart to rule my head which I have always lived with before

Been in the position where I have wanted to feel I can 'forgive' her but when I look at her these days even nearly two years after dday it can never happen. 

When you realize that if you were not married to this person and you know you would not want to mix with anybody that has done the sh!t she has - hurt destroyed the amount of people woman and children she has / is still doing, then you already know respect and whatever forgiveness is, is not on the menu.

I can be pleasant to her - very, that's improved (she mistakes that for respect) 

Do I feel better about myself ? now that I know 
a/I am not insane that I am 
b/a really good guy good person that I 
c/genuinely upon reflection gave everything for my marriage for her . 

Yes I do 

I'm not by any means perfect but when it comes to "he never met my needs" she has nothing to say on the matter because there is nothing to say. 

I'm a good kind smart and intelligent guy but I feel a bit stupid in not really knowing what forgiveness is and whether I'm capable of ever 'giving it' 

mmm....


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

EI said:


> This thread is starting to shape up quite nicely. There is an interesting mix of posters who are commenting, yet there is a level of courtesy that has enabled a beneficial conversation to take place.
> 
> I think the debate over reconciling vs. divorcing is similar to the the debate over SAHM's vs. working moms. There isn't a right, or a wrong, or a one size fits all approach, that works for everyone. Every individual has to decide, for themselves, what path to take. Everyone must choose what will be the happiest, healthiest, and most beneficial choice for themselves, and for their loved ones, moving forward.
> 
> ...


Huh? What? Is that so? What does yonr67 8vycrtyi86 yiboyb 98yft mean? You're not making any sense. Are you speaking English?


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Headspin said:


> Well thread is moving on or sideways or..whatever it's good tho
> 
> Forgiveness is a something that I, in all my years, understand less now more than ever
> 
> ...


Pretty much this. Forgiveness is a long way off...and may just be a pipe dream. I am still working on not feeling like I was punched in the gut every time I think of the stbx.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I wish no more than continued healing Headspin. I believe time will prove you can forgive and will be happy for it.
Man hugs from the other ocean shore.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Huh? What? Is that so? What does yonr67 8vycrtyi86 yiboyb 98yft mean? You're not making any sense. Are you speaking English?


Have I ever told you that you remind me of Eddie Toles? I haven't seen that boy since we were in the 2nd grade! 

Come to think of it, I don't think anyone else has, either! :loser:


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> i am unable to do that, ei. I don't know why. Maybe i have too many fears yet? Maybe i have too many triggers? I don't know. Maybe, and i think this is part of it, i am not secure enough within myself. It would not surprise me in the very least.





fenix said:


> pretty much this. Forgiveness is a long way off...and may just be a pipe dream. I am still working on not feeling like i was punched in the gut every time i think of the stbx.





headspin said:


> forgiveness is a something that i, in all my years, understand less now more than ever
> 
> in the sense i see forgiveness defined on here and generally i absolutely will never ever forgive stxw. Not a chance.



*This*: 



EI said:


> *It took me several years,* but forgiveness came in an instant, when I had a lightbulb moment and realized that I was in control of my forgiveness. So, I forgave him. I gave him a complete blank check on every single past transgression that he had committed against me. Although, I will never forget his transgressions, I no longer bring them up, dwell on them, remind him of them, or hold them against him. But, I no longer allow him to manipulate me, either. I have very healthy boundaries where he is concerned. I don't trust him, but that is his cross to bear, not mine. He isn't trustworthy. Unfortunately, for him, I will likely never give him the opportunity to gain my trust, again, because he has manipulated me so many times that I don't allow him to be close enough to me to take advantage of me. Still, I'm no longer mad at him. I truly wish him nothing but the very best.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I guess I don't understand unless you mean just by telling them you are going to see others and/or you telling them the same.


That's exactly what I'm saying. Not looking for a relationship. They know this up front.




> I wouldn't personally be comfortable with that.


Its not for everyone. I'm very comfortable with it and its more comfortable than letting your guard down and then someone stabbing you in the heart.

But if you are talking about not being comfortable with being told by the person you are seeing that they are not looking for a relationship, then you get the choice to move on. This is something I make known up front. No leading on, and they have a choice.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Wazza said:


> How do you do that? What happens when you start getting too close to someone, getting too emotionally invested?


Simple, I just don't.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Simple, I just don't.


Your ex committed emotional homicide against you. She murdered the part of you capable of love and giving yourself emotionally to someone else, letting yourself be vulnerable and open to another.

There's SO MUCH they take from you when they cheat.

I'm there too brother. I don't know if I want to ever get those abilities back. But for now, they're worm food.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Other than trying to reach other potential future WS's before they become WS's, these last few posts are a big part of the reason that I stay on TAM. Not to torture myself, but simply so that I never forget just how damaging infidelity is, and so that I never become complacent about helping B1 heal. I realize that it will always be an ongoing process. 

I'm going to confess that I had wanted to be closer to B1 for so many years. I found the emotional and physical disconnect to be so hurtful, at times, that it felt physically painful. As devastating as the aftermath of my affair has been for both of us, we are closer now, both, physically and emotionally than we have ever been. The heavy lifting and making amends that a WS must commit to that is such a vital part of a successful reconciliation has never felt like "punishment" or "consequences" to me. While I hate that he is hurting over my betrayal, I have loved every moment of making amends. All of it. We are so connected, now, so in tune with one another. 

It is possible to love, fall out of love, and to love, again. Sometimes, it can even be with the same person. I know this to be true, because it happened to us.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

I second, EI. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I Am a Rock - Simon & Garfunkel Lyrics - YouTube


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I Am a Rock - Simon & Garfunkel Lyrics - YouTube


Nothing could more clearly illustrate the difference between you and me, Waz, than our choice of songs. Simon and Garfunkel? Barf. Jerry Lee Lewis - Drinking Wine Spo-Dee-O-Dee - YouTube Now this is what I can music.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Travis Tritt - Ten Feet Tall and Bulletproof (Ten Feet Tall and Bulletproof) - YouTube Again


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Uriah Heep - Sunrise - YouTube See where I'm going with this?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

AC/DC "Whole Lotta Rosie": Retuned A-440 Version - YouTube Like this a lot.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Ah Rookie, you need to develop a sense of poetry. Musically, ten out of ten for ACDC with Bon Scott. Bonus marks for Jerry Lee.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Here's A Quarter [Call Someone Who Cares] (Video) - YouTube


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Here's A Quarter [Call Someone Who Cares] (Video) - YouTube


Your optimism is contagious!


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Healer said:


> Your ex committed emotional homicide against you. She murdered the part of you capable of love and giving yourself emotionally to someone else, letting yourself be vulnerable and open to another.
> 
> There's SO MUCH they take from you when they cheat.
> 
> I'm there too brother. I don't know if I want to ever get those abilities back. But for now, they're worm food.


Not so. She hurt him for sure. He is choosing what he does after.

He is allowing her to define his life and his future. And one day he will be a lonely old man because of it.

It is all about the illusion of control. But fear is in control. One day someone worth the risk will come along, and god bless that person because she is involved with a guy who spent years NOT HEALING and is going to be dragging baggage he could have handled before she came along if he didn't embrace fear instead of life... So at that point you can kick yourself for either not being healthy enough to keep her or too afraid to love someone worthy of being loved.

Look, giving the ex that much power says nothing has changed even with the divorce.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> Not so. She hurt him for sure. He is choosing what he does after.
> 
> He is allowing her to define his life and his future. And one day he will be a lonely old man because of it.
> 
> ...


This is gospel. Your wife hurt you no more than mine. The différence is I NEVER allowed my ex wife to define me. No man should. Even when things are great.

It is your choice to allow her acts to continue hurting you. At some point you have to stop blaming her. Sounds crazy, huh?

Our wives took our free will away when they cheated. Drafting us for a war we never wanted. We can remain shell shocked or demand our lives back.

That choice is a burden, but one they can never take away.

And as offered above, if you ignore that burden, when a better partner arrives, you will never recognize it.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Fear <> freedom


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Healer said:


> Your ex committed emotional homicide against you. She murdered the part of you capable of love and giving yourself emotionally to someone else, letting yourself be vulnerable and open to another.
> 
> There's SO MUCH they take from you when they cheat.
> 
> I'm there too brother. I don't know if I want to ever get those abilities back. But for now, they're worm food.


No arguments there. But one can have emotional homicide against you without being cheated upon.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> Your optimism is contagious!


It is optimism for some. Its optimism that if someone cheats on me, then wants to come back, then I am not interested. I'm optimistic my life will be better without them.

Hence, "here's a quarter, call someone who cares"


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> Not so. She hurt him for sure. He is choosing what he does after.
> 
> He is allowing her to define his life and his future.



Not really, I'm still capable of love, I just choose not to engage in it any longer.




> And one day he will be a lonely old man because of it.


And that will suit me just fine. I don't go out looking for anyone now. I actually love being alone. If someone comes along, who knows, maybe she can change my mind. But it would have to be someone DAMN special, and those are rare.




> It is all about the illusion of control. But fear is in control.


No, its about having enough and wanting to be free from it.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

vellocet said:


> It is optimism for some. Its optimism that if someone cheats on me, then wants to come back, then I am not interested. I'm optimistic my life will be better without them.


Fair enough. I think you, absolutely, made the right choice for yourself. I completely respect your right to make whatever decision you feel is best for you. 

I had no intentions of ever "coming back into the marriage." I was on a 2 year survival plan until I felt I could afford to financially and legally leave the marriage. Still, I cheated and it was WRONG. I had been miserable for so many years that I should have just decided to stick it out and be faithful until I could divorce. But, obviously, I didn't. 



vellocet said:


> Hence, "here's a quarter, call someone who cares"


Turns out my husband did! And, here we are!


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> Fair enough. I think you, absolutely, made the right choice for yourself. I completely respect your right to make whatever decision you feel is best for you.


And that's what I'm saying, for me. Its not for everyone.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Love is a decision. Right?


If one chooses it, yes.


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