# Advice for a friend



## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Over new years I was out with some friends, we met some other people, and a few of us went and hung out at another friend's house after midnight. Everyone had been drinking heavily, the singles were all coupled or coupling up, the marrieds went home... some people stayed the night.... but from what I gather, just about everyone ended the night on a high note if you will (everyone got some).

So yesterday afternoon, after sleeping away the morning. One of my married friends I was out with (let's call him John) texts me and asks if I'm home and can he swing by and hang out. I have no plans for the day, just being a hungover bum playing xbox and football.

Anyhow, we're racing on xbox and I'm talking about various people from last night, "so and so went home with so and so.... I think Mike hooked up with that girl he met... blah blah blah, this is what happened after you and the wife left". Then the flood gate opened - he says he and his wife had sex all of twice in the past year. Says he talked to another friend about it last night and they said to talk to me because I'd been through a sexless marriage. They looked fun and flirty all night, but he says it was all show. They never actually do anything at home. All unserious flirt, no sex.

So I give him all the same info you typically find here, and various "do" and "don'ts" from my experience. He said they've been in MC and he'd even read NMMNG. He wasn't interested in MMSL, but he's not someone I'd have figured to be a "nice guy" anyhow.

Once upon a time, he says, he was the initiator in their relationship, and she pretty much always accepted. As time went on, she seemed to never want to have sex and would give excuses or avoid it. He eventually stopped trying and they became a sexless couple. They wind up in MC, he starts talking about divorce... it gets rough, but then it gets better. He thinks the relationship is on better footing now. She has even perked up and become more available or willing. Then he drops something I just can't understand. He says he doesn't feel motivated to pursue her anymore. That she has even made moves a number of times and he plays them off or avoids them. I asked if he's still attracted to her, and he says yeah, and he wants to have sex but feels like she's faking it. So I said, "well, then you go after her"... and he said he can't... he's tried, and all he gets out is joking about it. He said its like he wants to have sex, but doesn't think she wants to, so he doesn't want to have sex with her.

So I tell him, "You said she's pursuing you... isn't that proof she wants to?" He says "No, it's all fake."

So he feels weirdly paralyzed from pursuing her because he thinks she's not interested and dismisses her pursuit as disingenuous.

I had no advice for him except to say he sounds paranoid and needs to go back to counseling. Anyone heard of anything like this? A person who wants sex and has it available but won't go after it OR accept it when offered?

He's not a bullsh*tter, so I'm confident he's telling the truth that he's still finds his wife attractive. Anyone have any ideas?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You should listen to John 

If he has checked out of the marriage even reality seems fake...

She may be pursuing him for sex today then turn frigid after she had her fix for a month. A few times of this and interest wanes quickly... 

There's other reasons too.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

john117 said:


> You should listen to John
> 
> If he has checked out of the marriage even reality seems fake...


I don't know that he's checked out. They still do things together. They were out together with all of us for NYE. They run together during the warmer months with my running group. They're playful, both fun, easy going people. I don't sense any tension between them and certainly no avoidance. He says everything is good, they just don't have sex. They even make jokes about it between themselves.

I did tell him to stop doing that. That it just adds to his believing her interest in sex is a joke. Maybe a sort of resentment?

How does one get over resentment? I had a lot of resentment in my marriage, but I can't say I really dealt with it. I avoided dealing with it by leaving. So I didn't really know what to tell him.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I do a lot of things with my wife. Fun things. Parties, vacations, cycling... She checked out "officially" around summer of 2012 and I checked out mid 2014. I know I have checked out, she does not. 

We certainly make jokes about our sex life as well. We are battling a moth infestation (2 sweaters were chewed up) so moth sex life jokes are pretty abundant :lol:

My wife's interest in sex is a joke just like your friend's case. No need to resent anyone for that when there's other things to resent them about... Typically in such marriages there's other things going on and lack of intimacy is usually a symptom, not a root cause.

How you get over it? Counseling, individual or together... Maybe. Improving communication? Maybe. The nuclear option? Hopefully. 

It also depends on your friend's age. If he's 30 it's a bit different than if he's 70.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

He's 38 with 3 kids.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> How does one get over resentment? I had a lot of resentment in my marriage, but I can't say I really dealt with it. I avoided dealing with it by leaving. So I didn't really know what to tell him.


For me, most of the resentment finally went away when I fully accepted the reality of the situation, deep deep down in my bones. How can your resent a person for being who they really are? Resentment only comes when you believe that your spouse has a real choice in the matter, and she is choosing to not be a sexually satisfying mate despite the ability to behave otherwise.

Once you accept your spouse for who they have repeatedly proven themselves to be, you no longer resent them. You may still decide to leave them, but it will be because you truly see the depth of your incompatibility. I would say from my own experience that the loss of hope coincides with the loss of resentment.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

So what do I tell him? To accept that his wife's "moves" or interest is fake or move on?

I don't actually know if her interest is actually fake or not. He just seems to think it is. I remember feeling something similar when my ex would accept my advances. It felt like she was doing a chore... duty sex. I'm not sure how a guy can really know for sure. I mean, my ex could have said anything and I would still have felt like it was duty sex.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> So what do I tell him? To accept that his wife's "moves" or interest is fake or move on?
> 
> I don't actually know if her interest is actually fake or not. He just seems to think it is. I remember feeling something similar when my ex would accept my advances. It felt like she was doing a chore... duty sex. I'm not sure how a guy can really know for sure. I mean, my ex could have said anything and I would still have felt like it was duty sex.


I guess in his case the proof is in the shelf life of the pudding. If he really wants to discover if it's fake or not, he'll have to be willing to graciously accept it for a while and see if it's a real change of heart. I don't think too many spouses would keep initiating duty sex for (let's say) a year unless they well and truly wanted to do it. 

Takes what's offered. If it is given with sincerity, participation, even eagerness, then he should count his blessings, lick his now long healed wounds, and move on.


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## Melvynman (Mar 19, 2014)

Most of us learned sex by hearsay, mostly based on Bible beliefs. Problems is we are primates and primates are promiscuous animals or the females become sexually dysfunctional. 

Have to go, but check female sexual dysfunction for more proof.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Melvynman said:


> Most of us learned sex by hearsay, mostly based on Bible beliefs. Problems is we are primates and primates are promiscuous animals or the females become sexually dysfunctional.
> 
> Have to go, but check female sexual dysfunction for more proof.


Missed ya Melv!&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I would tell him to open up in counseling. Men can get damaged emotionally and not want sex with their wives anymore. We see it spoken of more commonly with women being shut down and loosing their drive for their husbands but I think it happens with men a lot as well.

Just happened on a smaller scale with me and the Mrs.

She got a little too *****y with me the other day and I got pushed past my line. She sensed it afterwards, realized she f'd up and got really sweet and tried to initiate. I put her off and she has been trying for three days but I am not into it.

I will take her out for a date this weekend and then probably ravage her. She honestly seems to not get it.

Your buddy has been put off for years and that does damage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Maybe he's not even aware of it or he isn't being honest with himself but do you think he's actually trying to teach her a lesson. Like, "you rejected me for years, so now I'm going to reject you. Let's see how you like it".


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## Voltaire2013 (Sep 22, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> Maybe he's not even aware of it or he isn't being honest with himself but do you think he's actually trying to teach her a lesson. Like, "you rejected me for years, so now I'm going to reject you. Let's see how you like it".


This, not proud to say it but I've done it. And when you feel their doing it out if necessity vs genuine want, it's easy to shoot it down. The ironic part is you really wished they wanted it but you've been conditioned otherwise. He may be wrong, I'm sure I was wrong at times, but in a passive aggressive way it feels like control. Oh and it's sh1tyy all the way round. Time for more counseling, I think they only scratched the surface on issues. 

Cheers,
V(13)


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> Maybe he's not even aware of it or he isn't being honest with himself but do you think he's actually trying to teach her a lesson. Like, "you rejected me for years, so now I'm going to reject you. Let's see how you like it".



Bingo.


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## Big Dude (Feb 24, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> Maybe he's not even aware of it or he isn't being honest with himself but do you think he's actually trying to teach her a lesson. Like, "you rejected me for years, so now I'm going to reject you. Let's see how you like it".


Anything is possible, but I am in a very similar situation with a wife who has provided duty sex throughout our marriage. I can honestly tell you that the prospect of sex with my pretty, loving wife is actually repulsive. I power through it when she initiates, though. Still, I can certainly see the friend's point of view and I don't think he is trying to punish her. He's just trying to hold on to some self-respect, I would guess.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

My sex life, when married to my first wife, actually improved when we got separate beds. Hers was in the east end of town and mine was in a smaller town about 18 miles north.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ask your friend when was the last time she made him feel like a "catch". 

Anyway I'm pretty sure I could be your friends twin.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I was where this guy is now a year ago. I had reached the point that I was ready to pull the plug if things weren't fixed. We resolved most everything else, but I did struggle with this for quite a while. At times I still do.

For me it is a combination of two things: Fear of rejection and fear that her enthusiasm isn't real, just a show to keep me.

Don't discount the fear of rejection. You were there yourself Dave. Something you got by cheating (not that I recommend it) is a "cure" for the rejection. After being turned down so many times, it corrodes your self worth. Avoiding that feeling becomes consuming, more powerful than the desire to have sex. It alone can prevent him from trying. It's like teaching the barn animal that it's OK to start touching the electric fence again. After being zapped so many times, it's hard to learn the new patter.

Breaking out of this mainly required time. A lot of this is more on her vs. him. Does she avoid rejecting altogether now?

As for the second part - real and genuine enthusiasm from her does wonders. 

If they are in MC, both of these suggestions can be raised by him as suggestions for her.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

It's a defence mechanism, isn't it? I got that too... after a while, you become number one and look after yourself... if my wife did that to me (not that she would), I would be very very wary... when you reach your internal peace (and you've checked out), you want to keep it. You don't want it to be disrupted for something which might be temporary... it takes time to reach that stage.


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

Cletus said:


> Once you accept your spouse for who they have repeatedly proven themselves to be, you no longer resent them. You may still decide to leave them, but it will be because you truly see the depth of your incompatibility. I would say from my own experience that the loss of hope coincides with the loss of resentment.


The resentment that builds up is toxic, I wish that our spouses understood how painful and destructive the resentment can be.

once the depth of the incompatibility is seen, doesn't that signal the end of trying to come together? Isn't leaving the only choice?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

No.

There is also coming together differently to a degree that the relationship is recreated into something entirely new.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

john117 said:


> If he has checked out of the marriage even reality seems fake...
> 
> She may be pursuing him for sex today then turn frigid after she had her fix for a month. A few times of this and interest wanes quickly...


I'm in a similar situation in some ways. My wife would reject me so much that I learned to not initiate. Then she would initiate after months of nothing. So I thought she actually wanted sex. I'd initiate the next week, and usually she'd say yes. Then the next week or 2 I'd initiate again but she'd start with the excuses. So I stopped initiating.

The cycle would repeat. I believed she doesn't really want sex with me. She only uses sex as a tool to manipulate or to keep me from leaving. I would initiate once or twice a year when I really got desperate, or sometimes she would initiate once a year when she thought she had to in order to keep me from leaving. This went on for 25+ years! Imanidiot, yes.

A few years ago we did brief MC after I gave her the fix it or end it talk about our marriage. She started initiating more, and even once on other than a Saturday. She rarely turned me down when I would initiate.

But I find my old fears, expectations, and beliefs have become barriers for me. I desire sex with my wife but I don't believe she desires me. I believe she is only doing what she things she "should". I still see her doing some of the old avoidance behaviors.

Which makes me not want sex with her.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

HDsocal said:


> The resentment that builds up is toxic, I wish that our spouses understood how painful and destructive the resentment can be.
> 
> once the depth of the incompatibility is seen, doesn't that signal the end of trying to come together? Isn't leaving the only choice?


Not necessarily. It depends on your problems and what you're willing to give up in the hopes of fixing them, no? I suppose if your marriage is sexless, there aren't too many options. I was not before and am not now in a sexless marriage, just one that isn't remotely close to what I expected as a married man.

Losing the fantasy and accepting the reality can be the basis for moving forward, like an amputee who decides that sitting in a wheelchair feeling sorry for himself is not the right path to the future.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Thor said:


> But I find my old fears, expectations, and beliefs have become barriers for me. I desire sex with my wife but I don't believe she desires me. I believe she is only doing what she things she "should". I still see her doing some of the old avoidance behaviors.



That's the good ole SLA's in action I'm afraid... She has an SLA in mind and will do her best to stick to it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Losing the fantasy and accepting the reality can be the basis for moving forward, like an amputee who decides that sitting in a wheelchair feeling sorry for himself is not the right path to the future.



Accepting whose reality? 

- married people over 55 have sex four times a year (Christmas, July 4th, Birthday, and Revolution Day) and never show any affection or emotional connection otherwise because that's how my country / parents were?

- married people over 55 have a fulfilling emotional life including a physical component

- anything in between


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Cletus said:


> I guess in his case the proof is in the shelf life of the pudding. If he really wants to discover if it's fake or not, he'll have to be willing to graciously accept it for a while and see if it's a real change of heart. I don't think too many spouses would keep initiating duty sex for (let's say) a year unless they well and truly wanted to do it.
> 
> Takes what's offered. If it is given with sincerity, participation, even eagerness, then he should count his blessings, lick his now long healed wounds, and move on.


Listen to this ^

Nothing to lose, really. If it's being offered, take it, and do your best to show how into it you are. Just let go and enjoy yourself, and if her interest is genuine, then you two will be on the same page quickly. Make damn sure she feels your passion, even if it's fake/forced at first. And make damn sure she enjoys herself, too.

If her interest is not genuine, but she feels that yours is, then perhaps that will be enough to get her engines revving again.

The status quo is nothing but damaging. It's a game of chicken, with both parties having a built-in defense to fall back on when the first one cracks and says something. "Hey, I'm making an effort and you're not taking advantage!" "I don't feel your effort is genuine, so I'm not taking advantage!"

Nobody wins.

Tell your friend to screw her brains out every time she offers. The more into it (and her) he is, the more she'll come around.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

alexm said:


> Listen to this ^
> 
> Nothing to lose, really. If it's being offered, take it, and do your best to show how into it you are. Just let go and enjoy yourself, and if her interest is genuine, then you two will be on the same page quickly. Make damn sure she feels your passion, even if it's fake/forced at first. And make damn sure she enjoys herself, too.
> 
> ...


I can't disagree. At least give this a genuine shot.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Been there, done that. You get great sex for a couple hours then the countdown timer goes off in her head....

Kind of like this but a calendar more than a clock 

View attachment 31602


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I have never understood that thinking in some women.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> I have never understood that thinking in some women.



It's the SLA way of thinking. A formal description of as little sex as possible while meeting the "letter of the law". Did you ever wonder why it's once a month, like pi = 3.14159? Constant across many cultures, age groups...


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Not in my house.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

soccermom2three said:


> *Maybe he's not even aware of it or he isn't being honest with himself but do you think he's actually trying to teach her a lesson. Like, "you rejected me for years, so now I'm going to reject you. Let's see how you like it".*


My husband felt SOME like this.. and I say this with our situation not being anywhere near sexless or my faking it/ not being into it -- this never was ... but still he desired more than I was giving or showing...he is the type who NEEDS the woman's enthusiasm or he'd never touch her.. He felt rejected for other reasons, too busy with kids, babies in bed with us.. 

We opened up this conversation very deeply as I wanted to know how he felt those years.. I dug for those answers.. .and he did admit to feeling this some.. his way was to "stuff" probably when he could have been pursuing me .. half the time he just let me come on to him.. .

This was an easier turn around as I cared a tremendous deal to make it up to him, almost couldn't contain it.. and I showed deep remorse also -with tears...he knew it was all authentic... and he was happy to oblige .... the wife has so much of a part in this as well....I hope if she opens up to anyone -that they will be telling her to ravish her husband ... and to talk about this, to resolve it. 

But yes. great damage can be done in these marriages.. twice a year [email protected]#$ ... this would cut to the depths of any man.....maybe he can't bring himself to admit these things.. he knows they are UGLY and wont want to speak them out of his mouth ... but that doesnt mean he isn't feeling them.. anyone would ! 

If you missed this thread... (some questioned if she was real- the story really pulls you in!).. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/212210-pain-frustration-rejected-wife-4.html

Start reading the Ktc's posts from #51 on about her Husband....about the strongest case of "I want you to feel my Pain" that I've ever read in written form.. 



> *Ktc said*: He nearly snapped at me in response. He said early in our marriage, he was close to giving up. He was frustrated, hurt, and angry.
> 
> *He glared at me, right into my eyes, and quietly said*, "I felt then as you feel now."
> 
> ...


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Totally agree SA!! Great post. I hope this wife is getting advised that way too.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

john117 said:


> That's the good ole SLA's in action I'm afraid... She has an SLA in mind and will do her best to stick to it.


SLA=? Sybianese Liberation Army? Service Level Agreement? Shuttle Laser Altimeter?

Sorry, I can't figure this one out and the online abbreviation dictionaries aren't helping.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> It's the SLA way of thinking. A formal description of as little sex as possible while meeting the "letter of the law". Did you ever wonder why it's once a month, like pi = 3.14159? Constant across many cultures, age groups...


will be 1 month tomorrow... sorry, the 5th...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Thor said:


> SLA=? Sybianese Liberation Army? Service Level Agreement? Shuttle Laser Altimeter?
> 
> Sorry, I can't figure this one out and the online abbreviation dictionaries aren't helping.


Service Level Agreement...  I know it very well, although I never agreed to it...


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> the marrieds went home...


Some of us marrieds can be so boring at times! 



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> So he feels weirdly paralyzed from pursuing her because he thinks she's not interested and dismisses her pursuit as disingenuous.
> 
> I had no advice for him except to say he sounds paranoid and needs to go back to counseling. Anyone heard of anything like this? A person who wants sex and has it available but won't go after it OR accept it when offered?


I agree that he needs to go back to counseling. 

It sounds to me that he needs to feel trust with her again - I'll make the assumption that deep down he needs to know that he can be vulnerable with her; that their marriage is honest/authentic and not simply for show and that they're both truly 'engaged' in the relationship together. To build that type of trust will take both of them though. If he's building a wall to shut her out, their marriage won't stand a chance.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

soccermom2three said:


> Maybe he's not even aware of it or he isn't being honest with himself but do you think he's actually trying to teach her a lesson. Like, "you rejected me for years, so now I'm going to reject you. Let's see how you like it".


I sensed a little of that, but he insists it's just that he doesn't believe her and so he's not interested in her.

I think its some kind of blend of revenge, bitterness, avoiding risk (that he'll pursue her again and she'll go back to being disinterested)... basically distrust I guess.

I also think its a self-esteem thing. He's really negative/pessimistic.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

HDsocal said:


> once the depth of the incompatibility is seen, doesn't that signal the end of trying to come together? Isn't leaving the only choice?


That's what it was for me. It was like a sudden realization... and weirdly, a huge relief to not be in that "in-between" place anymore.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Thor said:


> But I find my old fears, expectations, and beliefs have become barriers for me. I desire sex with my wife but I don't believe she desires me. I believe she is only doing what she things she "should". I still see her doing some of the old avoidance behaviors.
> 
> Which makes me not want sex with her.


Out of curiosity, what could your wife do to show she is legitimately interested, that you would trust? I asked this question and he says he doesn't think there is anything.

So if she can't do anything that he'll accept, that means the adjustment is on him... how do you make yourself believe something? Do you just go through the motions regardless? My ex and I did this for awhile and it was sh*tty. I don't want to tell him to fake it when he's bitter about perceiving that she's faking interest/desire to keep him content. "Fake all the things!!!" haha

I'm not really sure that "fake it to make it" thing is all it's cracked up to be.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

john117 said:


> It's the SLA way of thinking. A formal description of as little sex as possible while meeting the "letter of the law". Did you ever wonder why it's once a month, like pi = 3.14159? Constant across many cultures, age groups...


What is SLA?


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

heartsbeating said:


> Some of us marrieds can be so boring at times!


They're plenty fun. It was like 2 am or so when the last of them left. Married people I know rarely crash at someone else's house.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> They're plenty fun. It was like 2 am or so when the last of them left. Married people I know rarely crash at someone else's house.


Oh I was just pulling your leg. I'm sure your friends are plenty fun - married or otherwise.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Dvls, I can completely relate to your friend's position. I often encounter a kind of paralysis that keeps me from initiating. In some cases I can push through it. Sometimes it takes a few drinks. It's not for lack of wanting to, and it's not for lack of desiring my wife. 

I think for me, the years of rejection and sexlessness fostered so many negative emotions that I associated with sex, that now that it's back on the table it's difficult to reconcile in my head. Part of my mind says "go for it!" while another part of me recoils from the thought of it because it's still influenced by those negative memories.

I've seen it suggested here that maybe he's "punishing her" for previous rejections. Maybe so. I can tell you that in my situation, it's not a matter of revenge or punishment. The issue is entirely mine.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Weirdly, I started a thread nearly a year ago to the day about much the same thing.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/157649-hard-get-things-started-again-after-drought.html


Here I am a full year later and still having the same problem.


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

I sometimes read on another site that addresses sexless marriages.

This is a common issue. His wife is known as a Refuser. Over time the Refused spouse grows some serious resentment towards the Refuser resulting in no longer wanting them sexually anymore.

I would be guessing that his wife is only with him so not to upset her cosy little world being married to your friend provides her with.

Additionally i am a firm believer that when sex goes stone cold dead in a marriage that the possibillity that the Refuser is engaging in an affair should always be examined.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Out of curiosity, what could your wife do to show she is legitimately interested, that you would trust? I asked this question and he says he doesn't think there is anything.
> 
> So if she can't do anything that he'll accept, that means the adjustment is on him... how do you make yourself believe something? Do you just go through the motions regardless? My ex and I did this for awhile and it was sh*tty. I don't want to tell him to fake it when he's bitter about perceiving that she's faking interest/desire to keep him content. "Fake all the things!!!" haha
> 
> I'm not really sure that "fake it to make it" thing is all it's cracked up to be.


I'm going to think about this some, and may come back later to add to this answer. Obviously it is a bit of a muddle to figure out!

What could show she is legitimately interested? I think maybe it is more that she would have to be consistent over a period of time rather than do one specific thing.

The thing is that I don't believe she really ever was that into me _after we got married_. At least not sexually or romantically. This does go back to her child sex abuse, too. This is where the confusions come into play. She was quite sexual before she met me, and had no problems while we were dating. The trauma etc apparently caused her to have difficulty with sex _within the marriage _, yet she would laugh and joke with her grad school friends like she did before we got married. Even many years later, to this day, she laughs at all kinds of sexual situations and innuendos on tv but gets totally freaked out if I make a joke. I tried to sext her once recently, very mild innuendo, and she freaked out.

After a couple of talks 2 or 3 years ago she did make an effort, and we did have better more frequent sex for a while. Then a series of discoveries showed that she had deceived me about a number of things, which really damaged trust. I tried to talk to her about the 2 biggest items but she really lit into me and shut the discussion down.

The last one was a real inflection point for me, and drained me of my desire for her.

I know that during the bulk of the marriage she viewed sex as husband management, because she told me so during MC a few years ago. And I know she is capable of deceptions, and perpetrated a significant one last year.

All of that heaps on top of the rejection history. I doubt the authenticity of any interest in sex she shows today.

That all distills down to a question: If she can suddenly now be genuinely sexual with me, why couldn't she for all those years? She was before me, and she is now, right? So was she asexual all those years in between or was she being sexual outside of the marriage? Did a single conversation suddenly change her entire attitude about sex, and if so why did none of my previous attempts have any effect? Or is she now just pretending to be interested in order to husband manage? If so, will sex fade away again?


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Weirdly, I started a thread nearly a year ago to the day about much the same thing.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/157649-hard-get-things-started-again-after-drought.html
> 
> ...


That's depressing. I hate being reminded that I'm still dealing with the same problems a long time later.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Ditto


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Maybe I missed it, but did your friend actually told his wife what he thinks of the current state of the marriage? Seems like he's done a lot of speculating and nipping around the edges when talking to his wife (jokes about sex or lack thereof), but I don't believe Devil typed anything where John goes up to his wife and tells her that he's unhappy with the sex life where it now stands today. I get it that he said something when he almost divorced her and they went to counseling. But now that she's been offering herself to him on a fairly regular schedule...what's his recourse now? If he keeps refusing it, then it reinforces the notion in his wife's mind that he wasn't serious about the lack of sex in the first place.

He needs to sit her down and tell her WHY he keeps rejecting her. He needs to share with her his perceptions of the current state of the marriage. IMHO, all of this appears quite fixable. But of course we don't know the details, but the fact they spend a lot of time together says something positive.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

I think what happens is that he finally realized that she doesn't feel sexual towards him. Before that realization, he likely thought things would get better if he could just unlock her secret combination. But then one day he realized that she'll never desire him, and that killed a part of his heart.

If she starts having sex now, he knows it's something she's doing for non-sexual reasons. It's not that she desires him and has the urge for sex. Rather, it's that she doesn't want him to be sad, or she doesn't want to divorce, or she doesn't want people to talk about her, or something like that. Since he knows she's doing for non-related reasons, he's not interested.

Not everyone is like that. As long as their partner is willing, they're not so concerned as to why they are having sex. They may prefer it's because of desire, but they are just as satisfied if the reason is to avoid divorce.

What does it take to create a natural desire in someone else? I don't mean by creating temporary situations like fear of divorce or going on an expensive vacation. But how do you make someone feel the urge of sex on their own the same way they feel other urges like hunger? No doubt if you say, "Have sex with me 2x per week or we divorce" will produce more sex, but it won't produce actual desire.

If he can be happy with her willingly giving up duty sex, there is hope for them. But if he actually wants to be with a partner which desires him, he should probably move on. She'll likely never have an innate need for sex from him.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> That's depressing. I hate being reminded that I'm still dealing with the same problems a long time later.


I like it, and I like it when it happens to others here. It's great reinforcement that stuff like this is very, very hard to change. Most come here looking for an answer to a problem that fixes the problem, when in reality most would be better served with a dose of reality early on that lets them know the actual likelihood of change. 

What many call cynicism I call realism.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

wilson said:


> I think what happens is that he finally realized that she doesn't feel sexual towards him. Before that realization, he likely thought things would get better if he could just unlock her secret combination. But then one day he realized that she'll never desire him, and that killed a part of his heart.
> 
> If she starts having sex now, he knows it's something she's doing for non-sexual reasons. It's not that she desires him and has the urge for sex. Rather, it's that she doesn't want him to be sad, or she doesn't want to divorce, or she doesn't want people to talk about her, or something like that. Since he knows she's doing for non-related reasons, he's not interested.
> 
> ...


This is a good summation - my wife occasionally mentions that we should have sex, but it's more in the realm of keeping me happy than actual desire on her part. Also, she attaches a condition to having sex (needs to have a few drinks in her to loosen up) that's almost impossible to meet (she rarely drinks even if we go out). It's a vicious circle, which is why we're going on two years totally sexless, and over four years practically sexless. 

She's also mentioned that her ex would want sex all the time, and she didn't like it, but she'd give in anyway. If she doesn't want or desire sex, then I'd rather use my hand than have duty sex where she lays there waiting for me to finish so she can go clean up and go play on her computer.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

ChargingCharlie said:


> This is a good summation - my wife occasionally mentions that we should have sex, but it's more in the realm of keeping me happy than actual desire on her part. Also, she attaches a condition to having sex (needs to have a few drinks in her to loosen up) that's almost impossible to meet (she rarely drinks even if we go out). It's a vicious circle, which is why we're going on two years totally sexless, and over four years practically sexless.
> 
> She's also mentioned that her ex would want sex all the time, and she didn't like it, but she'd give in anyway. If she doesn't want or desire sex, then I'd rather use my hand than have duty sex where she lays there waiting for me to finish so she can go clean up and go play on her computer.


read MMSLP and act on it. Work out, dress better, don't worry too much, don't talk about your relationship, pursue your hobbies, in general be a better man is all you can do.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

HDsocal said:


> The resentment that builds up is toxic, I wish that our spouses understood how painful and destructive the resentment can be.
> 
> once the depth of the incompatibility is seen, doesn't that signal the end of trying to come together? Isn't leaving the only choice?





Blossom Leigh said:


> No.
> 
> There is also coming together differently to a degree that the relationship is recreated into something entirely new.


Realizing relationships change and evolve is one thing, but if this isn't what you signed up for, and it isn't what you want, then maybe you'd be happier outside the relationship.

It still feels like bait-n-switch. I didn't get married for a couch-buddy, I also wanted passionate sex with someone who wants me. After 16 years I realized that if I stayed it would only ever amount to her happiness and my resentment.

It's the other half of sexual compatibility/incompatibility. Doesn't matter how great it is if it only happens once a year.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> read MMSLP and act on it. Work out, dress better, don't worry too much, don't talk about your relationship, pursue your hobbies,* in general be a better man is all you can do*.


Or you could get divorced. It comes down to a lack of compatibility in the sack department. Whether or not you're willing to accept that life forever is up to you.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Coming together different can ignite passion, so I don't fully agree tulsy. I do know it comes down to that for some, sadly. Sorry you are in that situation.


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