# Wife wants separation after 24 years



## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

I am 48, she is 42. Last child graduated 6 weeks ago. 2 weeks ago I asked if there was problems....she wanted to separate. I told her I would leave home because she makes more than me now and can afford the house. I can't pay the bills alone. She was shocked, but accepted because she was planning to basically skip out.
She states not happy, not in love for several years. There was lot of life stress: Over these years I put her through college by working 70 hour weeks and she went to school full time. Yes I was tired and stressed but never complained. Boys had issues in school. Oldest got busted for embezzlement so I spent time helping him get reduced sentence. Had teeth removed for dentures.She had awful medical scare. Overall STRESS. Never any cheating (both agree) BUT she has a female friend for over 5 years and I do believe she has developed an emotional affair with her. This girl complain if she cant see my wife once a week. My wife would rather spend time with her than me.
2 weeks in, I am still at home (apartment not ready until 7/22) We talk, cry, spend time together. Best communication in over 15 years.
She says she is not IN LOVE with me. Does not even want to go on anything like a "date" with me right now. She loves me due to our long history.
We are good friends. We will remain good friends, but I do want my wife back.
I am going to fight for my wife's love. Stupid or not, I still love this lady.
Any advice would greatly be appreciated. I know I am about to take a huge emotional beating, but if she could ever find her love for me again, it would be worth it I believe.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Forgot two reasons she wants separation. She says I have been a control freak because I am jealous of her best friend.
She wants independence. She wants control of her life, but she has no real clue what she is about to get into. I did 90% of the shopping, took care of both cars, handled the budget and paid the bills.
This was never a "I want to do it" scenario. I did it because it had to be done.
The second problem is that I have an ED problem from accident in military. We could please each other by toys/oral sex. I want to go to doctor, but money has been too tight most of our marriage. The ED problem did not become chronic until 2-3 years ago.
We had sex 2- 3 times a week up to 2 nights before I asked about problems.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

noas55 said:


> We are good friends. We will remain good friends, but I do want my wife back.
> I am going to fight for my wife's love. Stupid or not, I still love this lady.
> Any advice would greatly be appreciated. I know I am about to take a huge emotional beating, but if she could ever find her love for me again, it would be worth it I believe.


noas, the following things are red flags to how you're thinking and it's a clear path to ensuring she doesn't realize what she's actually losing.
1. proclamations of being good friends no matter what.
2. fighting for her love even though she thinks she doesn't want you are not good signs. 

Draw those lines in the sand if you have to but they are signs that you're taking emotional scraps and that you aren't giving yourself enough worth. At least that's the psychological effect it has on how she views you. Think about it, she has nothing to lose. You'll still fight to keep her if she changes her mind and you'll be her friend if she doesn't. That's the exact opposite things to do if you want her to feel like she's losing something special. You have to place the value on yourself. That's attractive. Groveling for whatever relationship you can get is the worst thing you can do if you want to keep her.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

So should I not fight to save my marriage. I FEEL like she still cares. Even tonight she can lay in my arms and sleep. I go to move and she snuggles down. I know the love is tarnished, but should I just let her go because she is lost?

As most long time marriage members feel...I never could fathom not being friends. Is my mindset in wrong place?


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

Yes. 

Everything at this point is counter intuitive. The only chance to possibly get her back is to stop what you're doing.

Practically every guy comes to TAM with a similar story and we all felt the same way. That you can win her back and prove your love. If you can just do that, she'll snap out of it.

Reality is the exact opposite. If you want to guarantee she doesn't come back.. Stay the course. 

You'll get all the right advice you just need to follow it. 

Buckle up you're in for a long ride.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

noas55 said:


> So should I not fight to save my marriage. I FEEL like she still cares. Even tonight she can lay in my arms and sleep. I go to move and she snuggles down. I know the love is tarnished, but should I just let her go because she is lost?
> 
> As most long time marriage members feel...I never could fathom not being friends. Is my mindset in wrong place?


I think you should fight to save your marriage. It's your approach that I think will sabotage your efforts. There's a book called divorce busters that something called the "180" originatated in. Read that book and see if it makes sense. Basically arm yourself with knowlegde so you know something about the emotional dynamics going on in your head and in hers. Good luck noas.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks for the advice. I will search up on it


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Yesterday was a fun relaxing day with my wife. Lots of laughing, joking, hugs, and such. Remember I am still at home for 4 more weeks. We sleep in same bed, naked as usual, but no sex.
She went to sleep early due to migraine. She fell asleep on my chest and snuggled closer each time I attempted to move away. I got up a few hours later to post stuff here. She came and asked me back to bed. He slept fully entangled all night.

Today was harder. We got separate bank accounts & talked more.
She says she does not want a divorce (both religious and our personal beliefs do not condone it), but is leaning to a permanent separation because of her current status in feelings. She wants to fix marriage, but feels "the fight is out of her". I know she carried the relationship for years while, you could say, I had an A with my job. (70 hour weeks, her college, and stress of running our life) 
Jokingly she says I am her Urkel and I am her Laura (FAMILY MATTERS show reference.
I do know the separation will be good for both of us...finish growing up due to early kids and marriage. I never experienced childhood and I basically raised her from 16 years old. 
I have looked over THE 180 LIST. I understand the philosophy of it, but it really goes against my character. This is one of the reasons she began to dislike me. I was romantic, funny, spontaneous, etc before kids. After kids I became serious (the protector, Godfather, her names for it)
SIDE NOTE: She is nurse who works graveyard shifts (sleeps 8am-2pm 3-4 times a week) I have a normal schedule. Sex has always been on her off days due to her being tired, even if I was tired from my work. At this time she does not want to see other M. She is not interested in me either. Thought of us seeing other people makes us both UNEASY.
It is not what I want, but I feel there is no difference from what we had marriage wise if we lived apart, but remained married, saw each other exclusively. I know some people have done this.
I know I may not be totally happy, but I feel she is just wanting her freedom away from my control.
Any advice?


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Yesterday was a fun relaxing day with my wife. Lots of laughing, joking, hugs, and such. Remember I am still at home for 4 more weeks. We sleep in same bed, naked as usual, but no sex.
> She went to sleep early due to migraine. She fell asleep on my chest and snuggled closer each time I attempted to move away. I got up a few hours later to post stuff here. She came and asked me back to bed. He slept fully entangled all night.
> 
> Today was harder. We got separate bank accounts & talked more.
> ...


Yes...Listen to what these good folks have told you. I know it's counter intuitive but it is proven.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> Yes...Listen to what these good folks have told you. I know it's counter intuitive but it is proven.


What do you think GP?

Married Man Sex Primer Time?

Purchase the book asap.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

When a situation doesn't make any sense it is 99% of the time because you don't know all the facts.

Case in point - your wife has got a tight control over you, pulls you close, yet wants separation and her freedom.

She wants her freedom , but wants you to stick around and be her buddy and the guy that takes care of everything for her.

Something doesn't add up, and I suspect you do not have all the relevant information. Get it before your agree to anything.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

She's having an affair.

As soon as you can put a VAR in her car and a key logger on her pc/laptop. Also get into her phone for texts.

You must know what your dealing with.

Been there and done that..even the other girl part.

Of course she wants her cake and eat it too. You are plan B my friend.

You either expose the affair and shock her into coming back or you continue the path that you currently think is honorable.. (which in reality is enabling her affair and making her lose all respect for you) and you get drug through the mud on your way to divorce. 

I know you think you can nice your way out of this....wrong.

Everything you are doing... even sleeping in the same bed is only putting the nail in the coffin.

The right thing is the opposite of everything you are thinking now.

Good work on the separate bank accounts though...that was smart. DO NOT sign a separation agreement. 

That is classic cheater script for "let me have my freedom to go fvck anything and everything while you wait for me to get done so i can walk bow legged back to you"

Don't learn the hard way Noa. Your story has played out all over TAM and is not any different.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Forget long term separation when you leave file for divorce you might just shock her back into reality though not a guarantee.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Never any cheating (both agree) BUT she has a female friend for over 5 years and I do believe she has developed an emotional affair with her.


You can't possibly know if she's cheating.

If you suspect something is going on with her and another woman, there's good reason for that.

If nothing else, don't bury your head in the sand. 

EYES OPEN.

Figuratively speaking


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

lenzi said:


> You can't possibly know if she's cheating.
> 
> If you suspect something is going on with her and another woman, there's good reason for that.
> 
> ...


Put a VAR in her car at least find out what you are up against. If you want to save this,I would not leave and go in pi mode. If you don't just divorce limbo waiting for her would be torture for you imo.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks everyone. I am so confused right now. I do not know where to turn or what to do.
I know I am like the typical M who first experiences this. Wants to trust, believe, accept their mate as truthful. 
I know the people here do not know MUCH about the situation except for what I have told you, our lives or the people involved.
I do not trust people (strangers) easily so please forgive me if I may not appear to be listening or taking your suggestions. I WANT & NEED your help. Small town OK does not seem to have a support group for people like me.  I just have to learn to trust different individuals right now.

I see people saying she is having an affair. I can't see anyway for a physical affair. I know her work schedule and all the extra time recently has been with me. She goes to her married friend's house who I do agree she has an emotional affair with. Of course she does not see that, but she does agree she is more comfortable visiting her and her family than dealing with HER stress at our home.
Infidelity has always been the #1 taboo for both of us and for the kids too. They would abandon her totally and she knows this because our family has always been open on discussion on all things. (of course she has kept her feelings/problems secret, but you know what I mean) As stated earlier, we are Christians. She is lost, faith wise, because she even knows the reasons stated for the separation are against God's Laws (her words).

MY QUESTION IS: Why are so many of you certain it is an affair and not just what she has stated as being true? She never has really been big on sex. She likes it, but she has always had a low sex drive compared to me. I pushed for it 99% of the time. She stated she misses the intimacy of intercourse (2 years now), using toys do not allow me to be in that position for intimacy. Satisfying was never an issue.
Anyway I intend to begin using the 180 Rules slowly until I can get accustom to them. Remember I still have a month living with her and my youngest son.
Someone mentioned a MARRIED MAN SEX PRIMER (?) What and where do I locate this thing?
Thanks agin for listening and helping me. God Bless You all


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

noas55, I think you owe it to yourself to do some investigating. Var (voice activated recorder) is pretty easy. Also, do you know her cell, email, facebook, etc passwords? You can check phone messages when she's sleeping or in shower of something. Let's hope there's no affair but you really should arm yourself with knowlegde. Remember you're fighting for your marriage so it's a big deal. Big enough to trump guilt you have over snooping.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

When you find it DO NOT confront right away. You must gather all evidence beforehand. Once she suspects you're suspicious she'll go into cleanup mode.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

MMSLP is linked to in my signature.

The reason many think she is having an affair is because she is following the cheaters script.

A nurse that doesn't have time for an affair. They are in the top two or three professions for cheating. I asked a nurse one time if it was even close to the tv show Grey's Anatomy and she said reality was much worse, especially the night shift w with fewer people around and empty rooms with beds.

Let her know her abandoning you will force you to divorce her and she can take that up with God.

You have not gone to a doctor for your ED? Have you tried viagra? Seriously, did I misread that?


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> I see people saying she is having an affair. I can't see anyway for a physical affair. I know her work schedule and all the extra time recently has been with me. She goes to her married friend's house who I do agree she has an emotional affair with.


There you go. She's over her friends house. That's where it all goes down.



noas55 said:


> Infidelity has always been the #1 taboo for both of us and for the kids too. They would abandon her totally and she knows this because our family has always been open on discussion on all things.


Cheating is taboo for just about everyone, until they cheat. Most cheaters take a risk when they cheat because most friends and family of a cheater will not approve of their act. But they do it anyway.



noas55 said:


> Why are so many of you certain it is an affair and not just what she has stated as being true? She never has really been big on sex. She likes it, but she has always had a low sex drive compared to me. I pushed for it 99% of the time.


Because the signs are there. She's in love with her friend. She's probably gay whether she acknowledges it or not.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

No doctor on ED. I am interested in pills if they help. Family crisis kept money too tight to afford doctor. I am planning to go (for myself) later this year/early next year) Have no clue on cost.

Never thought of affair at hospital. Her being gay IS possible. Her mother was married 3 times then went gay. They got married the day after we did 24 years ago 

How can someone throw away their marriage, their security, &their kids love. Just floors me to think of it.

Wow!! That was a brick up the side of my head!

Thanks Chapparal. I will look into the book.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

I know we had problems bedroom & marriage wise, but I could really sense problems when she started reading that dang book series: 50 Shades Of Grey. She never was a book reader, but she read all 3 books several times then went on to the romance novels. She admits that she got lost in the stories and therefore quit reading entirely for nearly 2 months now


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

Chap's post was spot on about hospitals.

That's exactly what happened with my wife.

Her affair with the other woman happened at the hospital where they both worked. They would sneak into empty rooms and even the bathroom. 

When I knew something was up I asked her point blank if she was having an affair with her "friend" and her reaction was "No, I could never do something like that". That night I looked in her phone and found the proof. Confronted the next day and her response was "I wasn't ready to tell you"

Since then I also found out about another EA with a guy.

It's shocking to learn that everything had been a lie.

You need to start mentally preparing for finding a EA/PA.

Hope for the best but plan for the worst.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

coachman said:


> Chap's post was spot on about hospitals.
> 
> That's exactly what happened with my wife.
> 
> ...


Ugh doctors nurses and teachers are on the top of the list as far as cheating.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

I am preparing. My two sons are wanting to find out for themselves as well. They are very upset about this situation. Both are computer geniuses. My fear is that we find out she is in or has had an affair it will destroy their relationship with mom. 
Lot of vodka & grape kool-ade and lots of reading has me realizing the end is probably near.
I am stuck at home with her for another month which sucks. I cant fathom living here knowing she cheated.
I am hoping for the best but planning for the worst. 
I am flabbergasted on how we ended up here after 24 years of marriage. I know it happens, but like they say....not to me.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You are going to wait till next year to get treatment? Your wife is sex starved. Fifty shades of grey says it all. She thinks you don't care enough to see if you can even be cured.

Many hormones are exchanged that bond a man and woman hlaving sex. You have lost the chemical bond.

Get help now. Go to the doctor and pay over time. You are fiddling while your home burns.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

I'm sorry your here, but welcome to TAM

Def. investigate the affair route. These are classic signs of WAW. What she perceives as long time issues, rewriting of marital history.

Let me just say that if your in this to keep her, strap yourself in, this is gonna be a long bumpy ride. It can take 1-3 years for them to pop out of the fog. She may never come out, but the minimum seems to be around 1 1/2 years from the b-day speech. A lot of what she told you she's had prepped for 6 months already.

Know there is NOTHING you can do. Know that time and space is her only hope. The kids, u, other family have no bearing on her decisions. She going to have to hit rock bottom first. Nothing you do or say can speed up the process.

Some WAS take drugs, some drink, others just need to hide with sex. It's really sad what happens to the spouse/family, but she won't care. It's not about you, or anything you did, it's all about her. She's gonna be selfish beyond belief, she gonna tear you down to push you away, and even make you feel guilty that it's your fault.

Plz take care of yourself, stay away is the best way to handle it right, as nothing you can do will reach her. 

I wish you Good luck, people think they can get prepared for this stuff, but it's never like they think.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Why are you leaving, either make her leave or put the house up for sale. She is making the choice to end your marriage.

Have you checked online to see if there is number called/text way too much?

How does she feel about abandoning her marriage and being unforgiven by God and denied heaven? If she is a Christian, there is no way around this fact.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

I will talk to doctor. I thought the tests would cost too much $2,000 is what wife told me. My funds are really limited now.

I Chose to leave the home because I cant afford it. She can. I want my sons to have a home to fall back on if they cant keep their places or run into crap relationship wise. My youngest still lives with us.

As far as phone numbers/texts...only ones I know for sure are both female...best friend and a co-worker who are like sisters.

She knows she is angering God. She has stated this numerous times. This is why she insists there is no divorce or affairs. When she was going to leave it was as a permanent separation (she still feels this way, but no legal paperwork as of yet)

I now know the sex was more important than she ever led me to believe. I do feel if she is having a PA it is female. WHICH really craps on her Christian beliefs. 

At this time she says she feels that God is mad at her and she can not attend church or talk to Him. She is a true believer so I am sure she is totally lost, confused, & scared on her religious beliefs.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Talk to your preacher.

What do you mean the only numbers you know?

Have you compared the online bill with her phone for deletions?

Her kicking you out is no different than divorce. Tell her of course you will divorce her and find a loving wife. You are not old enough to give up on a love life.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

I talked to many of my wife's friends today. many are siding with me on this and do not understand what she is thinking. They all said they have not heard or seen any evidence of PA, but defiantly EA with the two females I have mentioned.

My wife allowed me to see her phone, FB, computer, and more today after I asked her. There was nothing out of ordinary. She was angery and hurt that I did not believe her, but she wanted to show me she was being honest. Of course I know she could hide/delete stuff, but I am leaning on believing her.
She admits she was wrong for not speaking up about the sex issues and not telling me what she desired. She says the 50 Shades Of Grey series opened her eyes to what she wanted and saw us as that couple when we aren't like them. This is the problem. I told her I would read the series in time.
I am dominant in life, but (passive) passionate, caring, loving in bedroom. 
She has been passive at home, but dominant at work and everywhere else. Bedroom....90% easy going 5% adventurous (shyly) 5% take charge.
Our talk got me to know more about her desires.
We are going together to doctor in the next 60-90 days for viagra. (My request) I told her I wanted them just in case she decided it was time we could have sex or we went our separate ways down the road. She agreed.

Understand that we are still filing taxes together. I can keep my home address on stuff and such. We have separate accounts now. Financial crap has not been the issue. She wants to handle the budget and pay bills. (More controlling for her) Since she makes more money & my fiances will be strapped, she is paying for all the insurances, AAA, and such. I can go home when she is there to wash my clothes as needed, see my two cats (21 & 3 years old) and she is wanting me to still come watch our shows together at times. I know she is getting her way & me too. I figure I can try to ride this out for a while. She might learn that it isn't so easy and understand why it was hard for me to do it all with family of 4 instead of just herself. She might learn to love me again if I give her the space and time. I truly want her to succeed even if it kills my chances. I am still proud of this woman and love her more than anything.

We are trying to work as a team to not cripple either one of us. 
She does not want me to mow her grass, service the car, or do other things like that. She wants that responsibility. 

I know this could all change in a heartbeat, but for now it is what I have. Remember she was going to leave quietly while I was at work because she thought I would be angry. God got me to ask that fateful question. She says that one question has made her willing to try a trial separation.
Lot of tears between both of us and open, honest communication over the past 2 1/2 weeks. I do pray the next 4 weeks at home before I leave will be good as well. 

She has some things planned like the 4th of July party at her BFF house. The other husbands will be there. She asked me not to go due to situation be uncomfortable for her. I agreed because it is uncomfortable for me too.

I know it is probably not going to work out for the best, but I am praying it does. Maybe she truly loves me, but can't stand to not be in control of her own life anymore. I do not know.

I can tolerate a lot of crap, but not staying exclusive to each other or any cheating is the drawn line. I did tell her that today


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Talk to your preacher.
> 
> What do you mean the only numbers you know?
> 
> ...


She want go to church or allow preacher to talk to her. She knows she has angered God.
The only numbers that are really numerous are her BFF and female co-worker.
Phone records are all showing that she is being a good girl


I now know she is sex starved, but she says she has simply lost the desire for any sex.
I still do the laundry and there are no signs of cheating, missing clothes, strange cologne, etc.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> She want go to church or allow preacher to talk to her. She knows she has angered God.
> The only numbers that are really numerous are her BFF and female co-worker.
> Phone records are all showing that she is being a good girl
> 
> ...


She hasn't lost desire for sex.

She's lost desire for sex with you.

Fix that.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

noas55 said:


> I talked to many of my wife's friends today. many are siding with me on this and do not understand what she is thinking. They all said they have not heard or seen any evidence of PA, but defiantly EA with the two females I have mentioned.
> 
> My wife allowed me to see her phone, FB, computer, and more today after I asked her. There was nothing out of ordinary. She was angery and hurt that I did not believe her, but she wanted to show me she was being honest. Of course I know she could hide/delete stuff, but I am leaning on believing her.
> She admits she was wrong for not speaking up about the sex issues and not telling me what she desired. She says the 50 Shades Of Grey series opened her eyes to what she wanted and saw us as that couple when we aren't like them. This is the problem. I told her I would read the series in time.
> ...


I wish I had a dollar every time I saw a nice guy write this post on the verge of total failure. I hope you are right about an affair , I doubt it though.

Fifty shades is porn for women. Why do you seem to procrastinate so much?

You need to get the MMSLP book and the No More Mr Nice Guy book immediately.

Honestly you seem to passive to fight this,no?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> She hasn't lost desire for sex.
> 
> She's lost desire for sex with you.
> 
> Fix that.


I am. I hope she will get that desire for me back before it is to late. That is why I have taken the suggestions on getting to doctor quicker than waiting till next year.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Btw, she's not moving you out because you're taking care of her needs, she's moving you out to move someone else in whether or not she has found that someone or not.

Have you checked her browser history?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

This evening before work, I came home with a rose. My first rose for her in ages (15 years maybe)
She fixed dinner (sausage) which I can't eat due to my new dentures. Still getting used to eating certain foods. She actually took time to cut the skin off the sausage slices for me. NEVER before!

We talked some more and enjoyed one of our tv shows together. 
During our talk I commented that as much as I wanted to give her time to find what it was she needed, she needed to be aware I was human and could lose interest in her and move on.
She said she understood and knew SHE COULD LOSE in this decision she was making.
She has said she knew I might move on, why was I waiting or staying, and other similar statements but never SHE COULD LOSE.
It gave me some hope that she at least realizes how selfish and how dangerous her decision is.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> This evening before work, I came home with a rose. My first rose for her in ages (15 years maybe)
> She fixed dinner (sausage) which I can't eat due to my new dentures. Still getting used to eating certain foods. She actually took time to cut the skin off the sausage slices for me. NEVER before!
> 
> We talked some more and enjoyed one of our tv shows together.
> ...


Sounds like you're still hoping you can "nice" her into changing her mind.

Doesn't work that way.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Btw, she's not moving you out because you're taking care of her needs, she's moving you out to move someone else in whether or not she has found that someone or not.
> 
> Have you checked her browser history?


Yes. On all computers. Nothing suspicious.

I understand I am being possibly replaced. She also has been told by both of her sons that this will not be allowed to happen without repercussions of losing them as well.

The boys are asking for a year trial separation with no affairs involved. This includes dating or frequent seeing others.
If not back in love or closer together they will back off.

I feel the same way. See that I have made the corrections I NEEDED and if that is not good enough....I will grant her a divorce so she can move on. 
SHE does not like this because the reason for the divorce is not acceptable in God's eyes.

I see how she acts and feels about the religious beliefs adn this is another reason I feel she is being honest about no PA. She is torn apart. Of course I am a man and pretty foolish on these things.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

My first thought was that she just threw you a bone......get mmslp. You are doing the opposite of what attracts women. Until you have done some reading, quit talking about the relationship. You are destroying what respect she has left for you.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

I understand about the NICE MY WAY won't work.
You see I use to be romantic and bought her gifts. It made me feel good. Life and kids took over and that part of me got lost.
Our talks have made me aware of the "OLD ME" being lost and how I got there. I have found the "OLD ME" and I like it. This is the real me.
I want to treat my wife well. I understand my part in us getting to this situation fully.
I figure I will do what feels good to me. Yes she gets the reward of flowers and an occasional gift, but I get the bigger reward of being happy. I also figure if it helps, great! If not...I am well practiced and warmed up for the next woman who wants to be treated like a lady


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

If you want to see her coming back to you go out a few nights a week and don't tell her where you are going. Be polite but to the point. Buy some new clothes if you can get to a gym boy will she be wondering what you are up to.:lol:


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

The chances of getting back together after separation are 20%. And I don't think its even that good from what I have seen at this site. That's only slightly better than if she has an affair.

Totally turning her back on her church says more than you want to admit.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> My first thought was that she just threw you a bone......get mmslp. You are doing the opposite of what attracts women. Until you have done some reading, quit talking about the relationship. You are destroying what respect she has left for you.


As soon as I can afford it I will get MMSLP. Also looking at NO MORE MR NICE GUY.
I will try to quit talking about it. Sometimes she starts the convo.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> As soon as I can afford it I will get MMSLP. Also looking at NO MORE MR NICE GUY.
> I will try to quit talking about it. Sometimes she starts the convo.


This should help:

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

noas55 said:


> I understand about the NICE MY WAY won't work.
> You see I use to be romantic and bought her gifts. It made me feel good. Life and kids took over and that part of me got lost.
> Our talks have made me aware of the "OLD ME" being lost and how I got there. I have found the "OLD ME" and I like it. This is the real me.
> I want to treat my wife well. I understand my part in us getting to this situation fully.
> I figure I will do what feels good to me. Yes she gets the reward of flowers and an occasional gift, but I get the bigger reward of being happy. I also figure if it helps, great! If not...I am well practiced and warmed up for the next woman who wants to be treated like a lady


And you might possibly find yourself in the same predicament.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

noas55 said:


> I understand about the NICE MY WAY won't work.
> You see I use to be romantic and bought her gifts. It made me feel good. Life and kids took over and that part of me got lost.
> Our talks have made me aware of the "OLD ME" being lost and how I got there. I have found the "OLD ME" and I like it. This is the real me.
> I want to treat my wife well. I understand my part in us getting to this situation fully.
> I figure I will do what feels good to me. Yes she gets the reward of flowers and an occasional gift, but I get the bigger reward of being happy. I also figure if it helps, great! If not...I am well practiced and warmed up for the next woman who wants to be treated like a lady


You are not listening, guys come here every day saying what your saying. So far,it hasn't worked. We tell them what we are telling you but they just know doing the same thing better will work. You haven't bothered to look at fifty shades that she has read 3 times. You just can't comprehend this.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> The chances of getting back together after separation are 20%. And I don't think its even that good from what I have seen at this site. That's only slightly better than if she has an affair.
> 
> Totally turning her back on her church says more than you want to admit.


I know the stats are way low, but all I have is my kids, my faith in God, and the hope of her coming back. Right now I do want her as my wife. I know this could change especially if/once I find out about affairs or lies. These things will cost her the kids' love as well.

Turning her back on her faith does speak volumes. I feel she is crying out for help the only way she thought she could & now she has the stress of upsetting our God. 

I know I am at fault for some of her claims and some are overblown/exaggerated/fictional. It kills me to know she has turned her back on her faith, but all I can do is try to help her anyway I can. I know this is the bed she made, but my love and faith say I must help if I can.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> This should help:
> 
> https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


Thanks!!! I will begin reading this asap!
I know I fit this NICE GUY problem to a T


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

I do hear you. I need to change my thought process on things. I am now reading NICE GUY. I will begin reading 50 SHADES tonight or tomorrow. I do want to know what it is that my wife was trying to point out. If it makes me a better man, great! Not my style of book though 

I really do appreciate the comments and I am trying to learn and understand what the hell is happening in the situation as well as me.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

So she is throwing a 4 of July party and blew you off and told you it would awkward if you attended it?

She's seriously callous in her selfishness. 

Help her out, file yourself and begin living life instead of waiting for her to throw you unwanted bones.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> So she is throwing a 4 of July party and blew you off and told you it would awkward if you attended it?


The couple is throwing the party. She is attending. I work but get off that night.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

noas55 said:


> The couple is throwing the party. She is attending. I work but get off that night.


Are they mutual friends?:wtf: stop at the party jmo.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

noas55 said:


> I know the stats are way low, but all I have is my kids, my faith in God, and the hope of her coming back. Right now I do want her as my wife. I know this could change especially if/once I find out about affairs or lies. These things will cost her the kids' love as well.
> 
> Turning her back on her faith does speak volumes. I feel she is crying out for help the only way she thought she could & now she has the stress of upsetting our God.
> 
> I know I am at fault for some of her claims and some are overblown/exaggerated/fictional. It kills me to know she has turned her back on her faith, but all I can do is try to help her anyway I can. I know this is the bed she made, but my love and faith say I must help if I can.


You're going to re-read this post down the road and shake your head wondering what the hell you were thinking followed by wow...I should have listened to those guys.

Your attitude and thought process couldn't be further off but good luck to you Noas. I really do hope you are the exception.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Are they mutual friends?:wtf: stop at the party jmo.


The husband and I are friends. The women are BFF and his wife is who I believe is the EA
3 weeks ago (before finding out my situation)she asked if their home could be her safe haven from our problems/stress at home. I said ok for a while.
If I show up I am afraid it might cause a scene and this is their party.
I work that night until 7. She took off work to be at party. I am suppose to pick her up if she drinks.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

noas55 said:


> The husband and I are friends. The women are BFF and his wife is who I believe is the EA
> 3 weeks ago (before finding out my situation)she asked if their home could be her safe haven from our problems/stress at home. I said ok for a while.
> If I show up I am afraid it might cause a scene and this is their party.
> I work that night until 7. She took off work to be at party. I am suppose to pick her up if she drinks.


Dude just stop in you and the husband con talk about random things or whoever is there screw it.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

So basically she got you to agree to have the home of the person that is helping your marriage end as a safe zone.

You do realize how one sided that is right?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Coachman: I am learning more as the night goes. I am reading while on the site. I know my previous mindset was/is off. I am slowly changing that mindset as the night goes along. It would have been so much easier if she did cheat, leave, leave me high and dry or even abuse me. None of that has happened YET. This is one of the few people I have ever put all my trust and faith in throughout my life. As time goes I see the selfish B***H she has become. I am hoping and praying, but I do know it will take an act of God for this to come up smelling anywhere close to a rose. I can only hope, read, and make the changes in my life to better myself not just for myself but for whichever woman I end up with. I do pray it is my wife.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Dude just stop in you and the husband con talk about random things or whoever is there screw it.


I might call and ask him. That way it is an invite and she cant say squat
He might not even be aware of her request


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> So basically she got you to agree to have the home of the person that is helping your marriage end as a safe zone.
> 
> You do realize how one sided that is right?


Well I did not realize that at the time I made the agreement.
I agreed on a Weds and asked the fateful question that Saturday.
The beauty of it is that the husband is the whole family's mechanic. He makes a ton of money of all of us and I know he does not want to offend me or my boys.

One sides? Hell yes I know. That is one reason I said it was for a short while


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## bravenewworld (Mar 24, 2013)

You are getting some good advice here already. One note: Don't let your kids participate in spying on their mother or dictating divorce term ultimatums. If there is an affair you must expose but I think it's not right to drive a wedge like that between your children and their mother because the marriage is ending, no matter who initiated.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> The husband and I are friends. The women are BFF and his wife is who I believe is the EA
> 3 weeks ago (before finding out my situation)she asked if their home could be her safe haven from our problems/stress at home. I said ok for a while.
> If I show up I am afraid it might cause a scene and this is their party.
> I work that night until 7. She took off work to be at party. I am suppose to pick her up if she drinks.


Sounds like a cuckold type situation


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Sir-

I'm a believer in Jesus Christ and I have to tell you that everyone is right about what they are telling you.

Please, it's time to man up.
DO NOT leave your home.
Show up to this party.
DO NOT be so nice to her, she is harming your family.
Find out about the affair.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

CONRAD: Cuckold situation? Not familiar with the term.

BRAVENEWORLD: I have told the kids to not hate her and such. They are the ones who are WANTING to know if she is in an A for their peace of mind as well as mine. They are not happy with their mother. I am actually pushing them to give her some support, understanding, and such. They do not wish to. They are like me in thinking she is not cheating, but they want confirmation, one way or the other. Of course if she is cheating or backs out of agreements that she agreed with them, she will lose them. Not my desires, but as they are adults, it is hard to keep their anger in check. I am actually kind of wondering how to diffuse their situation.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Sir-
> 
> I'm a believer in Jesus Christ and I have to tell you that everyone is right about what they are telling you.
> 
> ...


As everyone can tell, I am lost to all this.
I am grateful to hear from a Christian as well. My religious problem with not being nice to her is that I feel as a Christian I am suppose to be nice and trust my wife since there is no absolute proof of affair. This is one of those WWJD moments that is so hard to answer.

I am leaving my home. One reason is that I could not live here w/o her. Too many memories. Hell she might not be able to live in it as well. The home is in my name so she can not sell it.
I am leaning to appear at party.

Thanks for your comments.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

Do you consider an emotional affair cheating/betrayal of your vows?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

coachman said:


> Do you consider an emotional affair cheating/betrayal of your vows?


Not as long as it does not break us up. This is what we have been discussing. She could not understand why I was jealous of her friend. Now she knows why. She feels she did not put friend ahead of me, but she understands my feelings.

She is a social person. I am more of an introvert who is satisfied with my job being my social outlet. She is one of those types who becomes best friends easily and will do what she can for them. More like sisters. She had one guy who was like this but got to close to her so she ended it (20 years ago) Scared her so she never has let guys get too close.

I feel this EA with her BFF is her outlet. It bugs me that she does put this woman ahead of me sometimes, but they did ask me to go sometimes and I refused. I thought they would enjoy their ladies night out. My wife wanted me to go for her.....simple misunderstanding.

Anyway I have learned that lesson. My wife or some other woman will enjoy the results


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I'd say blow through any agreements you have because frankly you are nicing yourself in to a divorce.

You how all is fair in love and war. You've tried love, now try war. You get one shot at this and being nice gets you nothing.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Sat down and told my wife this was the last discussion on our situation for a long while. Told her I was taking back the control of my emotions and my life. She listened to my drawn lines on what I call DEAL BREAKERS during our separation. She kinda got ticked off, but understands them.

We also discussed what I learned about myself from reading NMMNG (first 4 chapters). Fantastic read & I fit pretty much all the requirements....sadly. 
She was glad I am learning, accepting, and rebuilding myself. She has stated she likes the changes in me over the past few weeks. She even playfully flirted with me. 

At Wendys (cant take her anywhere remotely nice because it is a date to her which are out of the question for now) we enjoyed our time. I realized from a joke she was wanting to be romanticized again. I told her jokingly and she turned and walked away playfully denying it, but it was like high school again. It felt so strange!

She is at her BFF for a few hours tonight helping her with her two rugrats. She called to let me know she was alright (storms in area) and would be home soon. 
It will be so much easier once I get to move in a few weeks, but it sure is nice when things seem normal even for a brief few hours.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

noas

You are too nice!

ANd your wifes decision to separate but not divorce is pure selfishness.

We are the same age and share some of the same problems.

Take this time to improve you.

And read 50 shades. I am a devout Catholic and i felt the books were pure trash. But often on TAM we have read where women read these books and it awakens sexual urges in them.

I cannot ever remember reading where it improved anyones marriage.

So be aware of what is going through her mind.

Between the books, your ED and her wanting to be romanced, well, plenty of red flags my friend.

One other course of action is to place a VAR in her car. You can listen to her conversations and get a better idea of what is going through her mind.

Since you are moving out, set a date in your head to pull the plug on the marriage if she does not want to return to it.

That is the consequence for her selfish decision.

Because in my mind how do you work on a marriage if you are not living together????

HM64


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Told her I was taking back the control of my emotions and my life.


Weak. You don't want to be telling her about your emotions and your attempts to get control of your life.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

YES QUIT TELLING HER WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND JUST LET HER SEE WHAT YOU ARE DOING. aS FAR AS SHE IS CONCERNED YOU ARE DOING THESE THINGS FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE TO GET HER TO COME BACK. SHE SEES IT AS MANIPULATION....

IT AMAZES ME HOW CLUELESS SOME OF THE MEMBERS OF MY GENDER ARE, REALLY AMAZING...

AND FILE FOR DIVORCE. IF SHE WANTS OUT... LET HER OUT. DO NOT LET HER DICTATE YOUR FUTURE. SHE JUST WANTS TO DRAG THIS OUT AND HAVE A SAFE SPOT TO LAND IF HER GLORIOUS FREEDOM DOESNT WORK OUT. 

ALSO, SHE COULD USE THE SEPARATION TIME AS AN EXCUSE TO CHEAT ON YOU WITH OTHER MEN AND JUSTIFY IT. DON'T BUY INTO IT.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

LostViking said:


> YES QUIT TELLING HER WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND JUST LET HER SEE WHAT YOU ARE DOING. aS FAR AS SHE IS CONCERNED YOU ARE DOING THESE THINGS FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE TO GET HER TO COME BACK. SHE SEES IT AS MANIPULATION....
> 
> IT AMAZES ME HOW CLUELESS SOME OF THE MEMBERS OF MY GENDER ARE, REALLY AMAZING...
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Can't like this enough. 

It's not change unless it's consistent anyway. You need to be honest with yourself. All your decisions and actions from here on out have to be done for you. Your benefit. If you think you can change yourself and then say "hey look at me, look at how I've changed".. think again. 

Learn from everyone's mistakes or just go ahead and repeat them. Simple but not easy.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

LostViking said:


> IT AMAZES ME HOW CLUELESS SOME OF THE MEMBERS OF MY GENDER ARE, REALLY AMAZING...


I'd be a bit nicer about it but yeah, you tell these posters to get tough and stop talking to their spouses and they say they understand what you're talking about and they're going to do exactly that and then they post that they told their spouse about how they're going to try to be tough and that's why they're not going to talk to them anymore.

It's a bit counterproductive to say the least.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Here is my problem with what all of you are saying. No disrespect here, just explaining my thoughts on why I did what I did or am doing.

I told her this was my drawn line so she would know where I stood. It helps her remember her promise to me, the kids, and to God. I also was toying VERY BRIEFLY with the stupid idea of allowing another man to sleep with my wife due to my ED so she could be sexually happy. My telling her also made it clear once and for all to me what my line was as well. Another person in my marriage will not be tolerated! From a date of any kind to sleeping together.

We were happiest when I was a nice person This is what she fell in love with. Over the years I became less attentive, not as romantic, etc, even to the point that I know I became emotionally detached from my family.
Learned a lot of this from the book NMMNG

She DID try to tell me, but I did not hear. I know now what has led up to the problems I am in. Am I too nice... Hell yes! I also know she is glad to see me when I come home now; not sad, put out, not even home, like 3 weeks ago. We have more good discussions about things than ever. I am more attentive and caring because I am awake, not in a fog of stress and anger. This she sees and it makes her happy.

She is saying more words of "Hoping we can fix" this situation than "I have my doubts" 
I now know more of her desires sexually. I was her first. She was 17 & I was 23. She did say she was happy until she read 50 Shades of Grey about 2 years ago. It woke her up to her new desires. After I read the series she has stated she wants to tell me what she is wanting in the bedroom that way if and when we get to that part I will know more of her desires. This is a huge step since just 3 days ago, sex with me was ENTIRELY out of the question. The thought of another PERSON touching her romantically or sexually still appalls her and makes her feel ill. (Her Words)

Everyone has a different, but similar story. We are on this site because of it. Not all relations can be fixed with one solution.
I know my methods may go against the grain here, but this is what I think: In my own way I was doing parts of the 180 accidentally/subconsciously over the years. She did not like this and it helped get me where I am at now. She does not know about the 180 method as far as I know. She has stated that these things I did and how I was, she despised and would not like to see again during our separation if we were to have any chance. "That person is what made me stop loving you" (HER WORDS 2 weeks ago).

She is liking the return of the old me. She has told me this. She even respects me for the changes she sees and on how hard I am trying to understand the cause of my inner turmoil.. (Her words). She has proven this enough to actually spend time at home with me and tell her EA BFF "no, i am staying home, or I am going home early to see my husband". Not much of this ever happened in the past.
Hell she even fixed me dinner recently which myself or the boys usually have done over the years. (She can make a mean spaghetti though)


I know I may be foolish, & ignorant in this matter. I also know I may lose her as a result of being "nice". I am a proud man. Been successful and had many failures. I can be the most vicious ******* you know if you mess with me or my family and can be the kindness man if you need me for a real problem. (MR NICE GUY). I am retired military. I have killed people in combat, but I am not a person who willingly can hurt a loved one. My wife has hurt me. BADLY. Not enough for me to hate her though. My love for her has not died. 

She has stated she knows she could lose me and it scares her. She does not want to throw away the marriage because she is being selfish. She feels I have just controlled her and not allowed her to feel independent of me enough. She fell out of love with me, but she still loves me due to our history/kids/marriage. She has severe doubts, but she is hoping we can fix our issues and get back as a normal husband and wife(Her words) 

Would it be easier if she had an A, done something horrible, or had left unannounced? Hell Yes! It just didn't happen that way. So now I am stuck on this roller coaster ride from hell. In 3 weeks I will be moved out. The space will be hard but a blessing. These walls here at home are claustrophobic when I am here alone. The walls will probably close in on me at my new house too.

I have already worked out more hours at work with my lady boss who is separated (still live together) from her husband for 3 years for EXACT SAME REASONS. (Must be in the water!) She hates him because he never tried to give her independence. She is looking into D now that youngest has graduated. She feels that my wife will come around after she gets the taste of independence. Who knows. I can only hope.

One year separation is the plan right now. During the year I am away, we will see each other 2 to 3 times a week (laundry, visit with cats and son, go over the things she does not know about, I will drive her to doc appointments (she cant drive in metropol cities due to bad eye) and we will try to build our trust and grow our love back together. 
Ideally, if either feels there is no progress after that time we will end it peacefully. This will keep kids happy enough so they do not hate her. (Their request of her). If there is progress, we will continue working to the R. Wishful thinking, of course. Will it work, stats say no, but I can live with myself and walk away with my head high, dignity, pride, and respect for myself. My heart may be broken & trampled, but I will recover.

Of course if she cheats in any fashion, it will be over, she will lose ALL the family and her relation with God will be severely damaged, possibly irreparable because she agreed to the "being exclusive" during the separation. Her faith is True to God. This is one of the things stressing her out right now. 

Hopefully this may help you kind people who are trying to help, understand my thinking, wrong or right.
I still look forward to your posts and opinions. Some may not agree with me, but maybe after I move out , I might think differently from what I do now. I do see this in a lot of other stories. Thanks again


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Woke up in each other's arms again, totally entwined. More holding and snuggling these past few weeks than we did over the past several years. Makes me feel like an ass. Anyway it sure felt good.

Afternoon: Told wife I was headed home from work so I could drive her to the city. She responded back that she was looking forward to seeing me soon. Usually a smiley face or okay is all I got for the past 6 months so this really shocked me

Drove wife to OKC to meet a gf to go to a friend's wedding. Damn she looked nice. Remember I handled all the finances for the family. Now that she is handling things, she went to buy earrings and get hair done. I told her how gorgeous she was. I told her I noticed the new earrings. She said she never bought them because she FELT I would not approve. I reminded her I had always told her to go buy the stuff she wanted. She said she knows, but FELT I would be upset for wasted money. This has been a normal problem in our marriage the whole time. I tell her its okay, but she FEELS differently. This is the part of freedom she is desiring. I guess from her own demons :scratchhead: 

Now relaxing with you guys until she calls me later around midnight to go pick her up. Oh yeah cut grass in 100 degree heat soon too. 
I hope she enjoys the wedding, BUT I also hopes she recalls our wedding and the good times we had.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Glad things are working out for you.

It's been my experience that although the situations vary somewhat, people respond in mostly the same way, heck we're all made of the same stuff.

Your way of handling things is drastically different than what is normally required to fix things, and you've decided to go against the almost unanimous advice given to you on this thread by many wise and experienced posters.

I wish you luck and I only ask that you post your progress so others can learn from your rather unique approach.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

lenzi said:


> Glad things are working out for you.
> 
> It's been my experience that although the situations vary somewhat, people respond in mostly the same way, heck we're all made of the same stuff.
> 
> ...


Quoted for Truth.

Good luck to the OP


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

noas55 said:


> Here is my problem with what all of you are saying. No disrespect here, just explaining my thoughts on why I did what I did or am doing.
> 
> * Take what you need here and leave the rest*
> 
> ...


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Blog | Married Man Sex Life

http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> The 180 is misused and miss advised here a lot. The 180 is specifically for preparing one for divorce. Being distant and not actually having sex with her is no doubt a deal killer.


We've interpreted this slightly different. Being more prepared for divorce (or more able to handle) is merely a side effect of the 180. It was originally coined from a book called "divorce busters" which is specifically targeted at saving a marriage and avoiding divorce. Infidelity is not even the theme of that book. It's about learning the habits that help someone apply worth to themselves which often is exactly the thing their confused partner need to see in them.


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## 28down (Feb 26, 2013)

Thank you for your service, I too am a vet. Couldn't you get help from VA for your ED?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Your way of handling things is drastically different than what is normally required to fix things, and you've decided to go against the almost unanimous advice given to you on this thread by many wise and experienced posters.
> 
> I wish you luck and I only ask that you post your progress so others can learn from your rather unique approach.


Thanks. I intend to post frequently. I do know the chances of R are very low, but I must try.
I also know I am going against the advise at this time of people who have gone through this mess. I just can't be mean to the woman I love. Read my post on today & you will see I did some of the advice this morning when she got mad at me.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Blog | Married Man Sex Life
> 
> No More Mr. Nice Guy


Thanks for the links and for your statements in my long post. I know I failed her and myself with my ED problem. PRIDE is an evil thing sometimes. 
My other neglects are being worked on now.
Almost done reading NMMNG....never knew I was so screwed up. I now know I am going to be better for myself, my wife (if she comes back), or my future woman.
I have already used some of the teachings at work. I told my boss NO on extra hours this week. I did not want to work them. usually I did just to make myself look good.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> We've interpreted this slightly different. Being more prepared for divorce (or more able to handle) is merely a side effect of the 180. It was originally coined from a book called "divorce busters" which is specifically targeted at saving a marriage and avoiding divorce. Infidelity is not even the theme of that book. It's about learning the habits that help someone apply worth to themselves which often is exactly the thing their confused partner need to see in them.


I agree with you on this. The only reason I feel it won't work in my case is what I posted earlier.
This morning she did see me angry during a small spat. She did like it, even smiled warmly. She said she need to see ALL MY EMOTIONS so she could make a fair judgment on getting back with me.
I don't think she is needing me to turn her away, but needing me to be there. I was not there for her for years.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

28down said:


> Thank you for your service, I too am a vet. Couldn't you get help from VA for your ED?


I am not a fan of the VA doctors. My wife & I both think I have some slight damage from my military injury that is causing the problems. Viagra might work, but she is leaning to nerve or possible vein damage. This why we always thought it would cost too much money. She states sincerely she was fine with situation up until her sexual awakening from that darn book.
We are hoping Viagra will work, but we are also wondering how we will know until she lets me have sex with her. :scratchhead:

I know I neglected her and feel awful. She blames herself for not communicating. 

.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Great 40 min ride home after I picked up my wife. I have begged for new pictures of my wife for 2 years. I have asked repeatedly for them to no avail. I asked for one when I dropped her off. Last night she sent one to my phone of her in her dress. I replied back on how beautiful she looked. 
After being in heels all day her feet were tired. I rubbed them as we watched MAGIC MIKE and she ate. She may have cut me off sex, but she does not mind a rub down. I do not mind because I find it relaxing when i do it.
Slept and held each other all night again. I woke her up by me rubbing her breasts in my sleep. She did not mind. I kind of felt like a kid with his hands in the cookie jar 
Mow the fun part...eating breakfast, she asks why the boys thought she my be gay? I told her the truth. They are as confused by her actions as I am. They know she is EA with her BFF. Logical assumption. She got pissed and became angry. I tried to get her to understand it was just a question we had. She remained angry then turned to how the boys were against her, she was alone in this mess, etc.
I finally lost it and reminded her she WANTED this mess, not us. She said she knew but it felt wrong. I told her I was sorry she felt that way, but she was the one in control of that. I told her I agreed to separation to save marriage, but I never wanted it. The boys feel the same way. Even during the argument she said, " I do love you, I always have" It did not stop me from telling her she was the one causing the problem.
Long story short, at end, she smiled and said it was good to see me mad. She had seen all the other emotions, but my anger.
Saw her twice for 5 mins today. She was happy to see me and she even gave me a kiss as she left the house.

These next 3 weeks at home are going to be hard.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

You two are enjoying what is known as a second honeymoon.

Look it up if you want but it basically means that after a separation, you both miss one another so much and you were both so afraid of losing whatever you had that it just feels so good and so right now that you're back together.

There's only one problem- nothing's been resolved, you're just painting over the rust, or putting a bandaid on a severed artery.

She has no clue she's in love with her friend. She's probably blaming you for turning the kids against her and questioning her gender preferences. She's in denial, you're grabbing at straws because you believe you cannot live without her. 

You're walking on eggshells and you know it.

Sooner or later it's going to blow up. 

If you insist on going this route get into counseling. 

ASAP.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> You two are enjoying what is known as a second honeymoon.
> 
> Look it up if you want but it basically means that after a separation, you both miss one another so much and you were both so afraid of losing whatever you had that it just feels so good and so right now that you're back together.
> 
> ...


I know I am on egg shells. No actual separation yet. 3 weeks till I can move out. Nothing conventional here let me tell you. She still does not want to go to church..yet. No MC ...not ready. 
She still wants separation, but she is still wishy washy on how she wants things. I know she is scared and confused as much as me. I keep praying for her, me , and the boys as well as reading as much as I can on understanding this mess, and bettering myself.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

She's calling all the shots here. She's wishy washy, not sure if she wants you back, not sure if she wants you gone, not sure if she still loves you.. and here you are just waiting for her to make up her mind. 

That's weak and unattractive. You seem to have this misguided idea in your head that to be strong, independent, and tough, and to pull back a bit and maintain your distance is somehow being 'mean'. It's called 'being a man'. That's what women want. Even if your wife tells you she likes the "new, nice, you" it's not what she really wants or needs. 

It's not going to last my friend. You sir, are headed straight for disaster and the sad part about it is that your situation is one where you just might be able to make a save if you could only see the forest for the trees.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

I am listening Lenzi. What I mean by wishy washy on wanting things...we are trying to work out visitations due to our work schedules. Finances so we do not cripple our family, pay off our new medical bills and the darn IRS. 
The drawn lines she accepted. 
Sure she does not know if she wants me back or if she still loves me. 3 weeks of communication has brought us closer (friend wise), but she wants to be in control of her own life and that cant happen till I can move. She does not want me out of her life. I am still her best friend, male wise. She is still asking me about things that are not too important. She still wants my advise on things she deems important.
I am open to suggestions and trying to weed out the ones that I feel will help my situation


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

How can you be friends?

She threw you away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Do whatever is necessary to turn things around so she is not the one calling the shots. 

It's probably safe to say that if she wanted to drop all the separation talk and asked you to please stay with her and not move out you'd do it in a second, isn't that right?

She knows this. She knows she's got you right where she wants you and at this point your value to her has decreased to nothing more than a person in her life who she can use for creature comforts and advice as necessary, and maybe some help with the household chores and of course doing your fair share of child care responsibilities.

She wants you to help her and be there for her, as you said, for things SHE thinks are important. She makes the rules, you obey the rules. 

At the moment you're nothing more than a doormat. 

If you want any chance of saving this, if you don't want to look back on this mess years from now and be shaking your head and realizing how bad you're messing up every time you deal with her then STOP being so damn 'nice'. There's a fine line between 'nice' and 'weak' and you've crossed it.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

LostViking said:


> How can you be friends?
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As long as I still love her, I cant say I am not her friend.
My faith directs me to not hate her if I see there may still be a chance. We are communicating and we are trying to work things out. You can't fix a marriage if you are not even friends.

3 weeks ago she could barely stand the sight of me.
Now she feels more comfortable and we can actually laugh and enjoy each others company


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Do whatever is necessary to turn things around so she is not the one calling the shots.
> *Working on this.
> *
> 
> ...


I appreciate the stern post. As I stated earlier, it will be harder emotionally, but easier to take control of things once I am moved. 
I packed up some of my stuff like personal family photos and office stuff tonight. I doubt it, but who knows...seeing how de-noas55 the house is becoming may shake her up a little.
It may make her glad I am getting out. If i see that....maybe that will wake me up to a "clearer" realization.

I am bettering myself, but I so hate this feeling & damage she is putting my family through


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

Didn't we say everything that feels right is actually wrong right now?

You are rubbing her feet all the way to divorce. 

You have cemented your place right in front of the front door and she wipes her feet every time.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Since you have 3 weeks you should read the first fifty Shades of Grey, buy some Viagra, surprise her one night.


Then tie her up and tittilate her selfish brain of hers.

And do not stop until you are done.

I would be pretty curious about her reaction. 

HAve a toy or two as backup.

Just remember, she is still your wife so what o you have o lose.....


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I believe you are still missing the main problem. Please read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Had you been aware of what is in that book a long time ago, none of this would be happening I have no doubt.

You can get the book but I would download it this instant. We know it works, the guys that read it almost all agree to a man.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Since you have 3 weeks you should read the first fifty Shades of Grey, buy some Viagra, surprise her one night.
> 
> 
> Then tie her up and tittilate her selfish brain of hers.
> ...


God knows I would love to do this. I am currently reading 50 shades. Not to far into it though. My concern is...if she does not want sex, would this constitute rape?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> I believe you are still missing the main problem. Please read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Had you been aware of what is in that book a long time ago, none of this would be happening I have no doubt.
> 
> You can get the book but I would download it this instant. We know it works, the guys that read it almost all agree to a man.


Ok I will download it today. I do want to cover all my bases because I still am not too sure of what she is wanting exactly.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

This morning at breakfast wife asked me how things were living at home in this situation. I said not how I like it. I do not want to move out, but will if it is needed. I prefer to stay, get counseling, and work out our issues
I asked how she felt sleeping in my arms at night? Would she miss it? Got called in to work so she left private message on FB for me. Check this out:

FROM WIFE
I do feel comfortable & safe in your arms. That comes to no surprise to me. You have held me in good times & in bad, to both comfort me & to love me for over half of my life. 
You said in an earlier message that you felt scared. Well, I'm scared too. I know I'm the one that asked for this separation but that doesn't mean I’m not scared as hell too. 
I'm scared of never allowing myself to love again like I once did. 
I'm scared of being alone for the rest of my life.	
I’m scared that you will end up hating me & not only will I end up losing a husband but a friend.
I’m scared that my kids have always seen me as a quitter & that this just proves it.
I’m scared of trusting all that I see only to have my heart shattered yet again.

So, yes, it does feel good to hold you, it does feel safe, comfortable, & familiar. I am glad for those moments of solace as I sleep when my guard is down & I can rest peacefully in arms that have comforted me so many times. 

But this is not a cry out for more affection; this is me taking advantage of what time I have left to get the comfort that I know will not be there once you are gone. I can see how wrong that is of me to use you like that & I can see how it can give off so many wrong signals. For that I am sorry. If we need to change our sleeping arrangements, we can. I am not saying I want to, only that I understand if you want to.

As far as more affection, & you staying here at the house. noas55, I am just not there. We are not there. Yes we are talking, yes we are making progress, but we are so very far away from staying in the same house. I’m sorry; I know this is not what you want to hear. You know my reasoning, they have not changed. I do hope you understand them.

I hope this helps.
END OF NOTE

So we talked about this tonight before she went to work. I told her I was mad at her for being so selfish & hurting the family. A lot of her fears could be fixed, but she wanted other stuff that made that impossible. I know she is confused and in time she will figure this out. This could be worked out. 
She even commented on the changes in my life. She even started reading my NMMNG book to understand what was going on with me.
She said she is concerned that I will quit the separation before we know if its over. I told her she was the one that WANTED the situation & has hinted her doubts in the past. She stated (correctly) that she has been saying she wants our marriage to last, she just feels trapped right now. She no longer says she doubts we can stay together. We even talked about sex in the future between us. Long way off I am sure.

Anyway this message sent flares, whistles, a brick in the head, and all other forms of WAKE UP
Do I still feel that God is working on us? Yes
Do I have hope? Yes
Do I know she is a selfish B? Yes
Do I know she is using me? Yes
Do I still love this woman? Yes ...sadly. It would be so much easier if I didn't


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Dude, I don't know how else to tell you this but you are handling this situation extremely badly. 

I get that you are willing to listen to the advice given here and you're even trying to utilize it but the net result is nothing more than a trainwreck. I get that you're life is in shambles and you're an emotional wreck but if you want to get through this thing in reasonably good shape, if you want any chance at all at getting your wife back you need to make some serious changes in your strategy here. Note that I am not saying to 'be mean' because you're mentioned that you don't want to go there and that's fine. Stop being so weak because it's going to push her further away- she's already almost gone and whenever you act like a .. well I'll just say it.. a WUSS, she's even more likely to bolt for good. 



noas55 said:


> This morning at breakfast wife asked me how things were living at home in this situation. I said not how I like it. I do not want to move out, but will if it is needed.



In other words, "please don't make me move out". 

Again, it's totally up to HER. She's calling all the shots and you're the puppy dog scratching at the door to come in. Figuratively speaking of course. 

You want to step up to the plate and get tough. One possibility is that you tell her that you've reconsidered and you're not leaving. If she wants a separation, well there's the damn door. 




noas55 said:


> You said in an earlier message that you felt scared.


Your wife is not a friend that you can confide in at this time. She has the potential to be your worst enemy and at the very least, right now you need to avoid sharing your feelings with her. When you tell her you're "scared" (of moving out, of losing her, of the changes in your life) you are telegraphing that you are a WUSS! Say nothing at all, or act like you're just fine with moving out and you're excited to have your own place and freedom or whatever. 




noas55 said:


> But this is not a cry out for more affection; this is me taking advantage of what time I have left to get the comfort that I know will not be there once you are gone.


In other words, you are leaving this house, and I'm counting down the days and maybe even the hours and minutes. 



noas55 said:


> I can see how wrong that is of me to use you like that & I can see how it can give off so many wrong signals.


In other words, I'm totally using you, you're nothing more than a doormat, I have no interest in what you think or feel, this is all about me, and I want you out of here ASAP, although I am somewhat concerned about how my own life may be somewhat inconvenienced and maybe I won't have enough money and we have to work out visitation and all of that. For example, who will fix that broken lamp after you move out?



noas55 said:


> we are so very far away from staying in the same house.


In other words, stop begging to stay, it aint gonna happen.



noas55 said:


> So we talked about this tonight before she went to work. I told her I was mad at her for being so selfish & hurting the family.


She doesn't give a rat's ass about you being mad at her and being selfish. She's already convinced herself that her behavior is perfectly acceptable and it's all your fault that she was driven to such extreme measures.



noas55 said:


> She even started reading my NMMNG book to understand what was going on with me.


Dude- I don't even know how to begin to tell you that you are not supposed to share with her that you are reading a book about how to not be a WUSS.

Perhaps you can think about why it's really not a good idea to share that with her? If you can't figure it out, I will explain it in another post.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Anyway this message sent flares, whistles, a brick in the head, and all other forms of WAKE UP
> Do I still feel that God is working on us? Yes
> Do I have hope? Yes
> Do I know she is a selfish B? Yes
> ...


Noah's

The biggest difference is you know all of the above.

The key now is to work on you. Do not let her selfishness cheat you out of the life you envision.

Use this forced separation to do what you need to do to be whole and happy without her.

It is possible.

And set that date in your head. Do not deviate from it.

What date you ask?

The date you force her to sh!t or get off the pot date... 

HM64


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

I have no problem with planned separations, when tensions get high and you need distance to give each other a little perspective. This doesn't really seem to apply in your case. Also there is no plan to resolve the issues that you have now.

There is nothing wrong with having hope that she will come around, but hope is not a plan. I would not agree to leave until a plan is in place to fix the problem.

1. There should be a fixed time for the separation. Just an open end separation with no goals in between is going to last until she finds her Christian Grey. This will happen, I don't care what she is telling you now, it will happen.

2. Lets say the separation is for 90 days. The first 30 days should be no contact. Your children drive and can come see you, so there is no need for you to go over there. This will give her freedom, but also accountability for all the things you have been doing for her all these years. You need to get to Doc and find out what the real deal is and quit guessing

3. The next 30 days would include fun events together, with forms of intimacy, but no sex. Marital counseling would also be helpful as well.

4. The final 30 day would build on #3, but add sex. Continue counseling and fun events. At the end of this time you can then look to reconcile or just call in the dogs. Being friends is a special thing, but there is no reason for you to settle for what she has left over. You also need to put less credence into what she says and pay more attention to her actions. This is a lot more accurate measure.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

noas55 said:


> God knows I would love to do this. I am currently reading 50 shades. Not to far into it though. My concern is...if she does not want sex, would this constitute rape?


Read the first book.

I would think your wife would be into it but you are the man onsite so that is your call.

What is the worse that could happen? She says no.

At least you can say you tried.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Dude, I don't know how else to tell you this but you are handling this situation extremely badly.
> 
> I get that you are willing to listen to the advice given here and you're even trying to utilize it but the net result is nothing more than a trainwreck. I get that you're life is in shambles and you're an emotional wreck but if you want to get through this thing in reasonably good shape, if you want any chance at all at getting your wife back you need to make some serious changes in your strategy here. Note that I am not saying to 'be mean' because you're mentioned that you don't want to go there and that's fine. Stop being so weak because it's going to push her further away- she's already almost gone and whenever you act like a .. well I'll just say it.. a WUSS, she's even more likely to bolt for good.
> 
> ...


Thanks Lenzi. You are so right on what you say. I realized this after I saw the message. She found the damn book on her Kindle. When I purchased it, it showed up on hers as available to her as well. LEARNING MOMENT for all of us. Synched accounts carry over. So now they are unsynched.
I now realize what you all were saying. It will be hard for me to "go against the grain" but I now understand how selfish she has become.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Read the first book.
> 
> I would think your wife would be into it but you are the man onsite so that is your call.
> 
> ...


I am currently reading it. I need to let my kids know because if she accuses me of rape or tells the kids what I did, I want them to know what my motives were. God already knows. I figure I will try to do something before I move out. I figure what do I have to lose.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

VFW said:


> I have no problem with planned separations, when tensions get high and you need distance to give each other a little perspective. This doesn't really seem to apply in your case. Also there is no plan to resolve the issues that you have now.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with having hope that she will come around, but hope is not a plan. I would not agree to leave until a plan is in place to fix the problem.
> 
> ...


The plan is at the start of separation I come do laundry twice a week, see my S18 when he is there. During laundry we will visit, maybe go do shopping that we need. (1-3 hours) After I get W/D set I will go over once or twice a week.
No eating at our favorite spots.

At this time, 3-4 months in the separation if we get this far, we will begin going out once a week to eat, possible movie. No dating. We both feel that this is needed to see if she can reconnect with me.

1) Time for pulling the plug is 1 year. If nothing is different we walk away peacefully. If there are positive changes, we continue with new deadline. 
2) Any rules broken will result in her losing me and the kids. Any affairs will result in full all out exposure
3) No dating others, no close dancing or party situations that can lead to affairs are allowed (both agree for various reasons)
4) Wedding rings must stay on
5) We must attend counseling and church before we can R and live together again
6) Febr 17th our 25th anniversary...neither one can go out unless together

I know she may replace me but she is also afraid of falling for someone else, realizing she DOES still love me and being back in this mess, butt worse. 
There is signs of her wanting this to work. The problem is more of can she allow herself to love me again. She already sees the changes. She likes them. She is afraid of the harm I caused. I can't blame her there. 
NO ONE wants to be harmed by the person who loves them.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> We both feel that this is needed to see if she can reconnect with me.


I can't tell you how much I hate this part.

It's all up to her. She has all the power, she holds all the cards.

I'd never let anyone have that much control of my life.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

The reason I feel I should give her the chance to reconnect is because I caused the disconnection.
I was married to my job and failed to handle my marriage properly. Heck even all the other crap. I failed her there.
She fell out of love with the man I use to be and became this uncaring a** **le. The family knew I loved them, just did not show it.
She does still love me. She says it when her walls are down and she is crying. It's there, but she can't show the affection due to detachment. I am willing to try to give her time to reconnect with the rebuilt me. I am clear minded, and family focused for the first time in about 5 -7 years.

Any man who would walk away from a wife who carried the family that long while they were lost and now she is lost...I can't fathom a proper word.

I understand now what turmoil she dealt with. Guilty as charged. Does that make me stupid for at least trying to give her the chance to reconnect? Maybe. At least I was man enough to try. The least I could do after what she did for the family while I was out of touch.

Once I move out, it will be easier. For now it is a nightmare


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Why do you think it will be easier when you move out?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Not saying it as in being easier separation wise. 
Living here in my home, with all these memories, my 2 cats, my son, her beside me on the couch....makes me cry, angry, sad, all emotions but HAPPY. Seeing how my boys feel and how they AVOID talking/texting their mother hurts me. It is painful to her. I know she made this bed, but I still have feelings for her.

These mood swings are tough. I am drinking more than usual to help me sleep when she is not here. House feels heartless(?)
When she is here I can drink 1-2 beers and relax enough to sleep. 
I do drink to avoid nightmares from military career & this mess.

When I move out it will be harder for many reasons, but at least it will be a consistent pattern that I can eventually overcome...hopefully


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

From your last post it would naturally follow that when you're living separate and apart from her you'll be drinking a lot more.

That's not good.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Please don't give it a whole year. Give about 3 months go cold only kid and financials and if she doesn't make any effort file life is too short it may take almost a year for your court date so you can stop thee process if she turns around.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> From your last post it would naturally follow that when you're living separate and apart from her you'll be drinking a lot more.
> 
> That's not good.


I am afraid of that myself. I was a major drinker in my early days. I have not been since. Alcoholism is high on my side of family.
My boys have said they will keep an eye on me. My wife says she is concerned (obviously not too much) I am majorly concerned.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Please don't give it a whole year. Give about 3 months go cold only kid and financials and if she doesn't make any effort file life is too short it may take almost a year for your court date so you can stop thee process if she turns around.


Thanks Tom. I never thought of the length of time.

Question: Should I file D or Legal separation if there appears to be any hope?
We (I) do not have much money for lawyers


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Don't try to pull any BDSM on your wife, because she will not respond positively. You aren't qualified for the dominant position, in her mind, since she is making more $$$ than you. My wife tried to read 50 Shades since her friends had raved about it and and she couldn't finish it, because she said every third sentence was some variation of "Christian Grey is the richest man in the world." It's not the idea of bondage sex with Christian Grey that gets women revved up, it's the idea of any kind of sex with "the richest man in the world."

Ever heard of "female hypergamy?" That's what's going on here.

I am a big fan of "Biblical Marriage." And by that, I don't mean "Feminist Churchian Marriage," I mean a marriage like the kind the dudes in the Bible lived. Ever actually read it instead of just letting some harebrained preacher tell you what's in it? None of those biblical heroes of faith, except for the wittol Abraham, would mishandle this situation the way you have.

I've got prostate cancer and had my prostate out years ago, with the usual sexual side effects, so I know all about E.D. If this is service related, you need to pursue treatment, up to and including an implant, on Uncle Sugar's dime. With one of those, you can pound your whole biblical harem all night without a rest.

What kind of physical shape are you in? typical American sack of , uh, lard? Is the number on the waist of your jeans bigger than 32? That's too big.

Let's talk war plans. What are your S-2 telling you? Have you put a VAR in her car? Have you looked for her burner phone? Why are you sharing all your battle plans (books, self improvement) with the enemy? She is your enemy in the same way Iran is an enemy of the US. Khomenei declared war on the US back in '79 and our so-called leaders have studiously ignored that fact ever since. Your wife has declared war on you, so quit acting like Jimmy Carter and behave like Andrew Jackson. 

Stop planning on leaving. Instead file for divorce and ask for separate maintenance. That way she'll be paying you, since she is the high earner. If she wants to split, she'll be the one leaving. Get the best physique you've ever had. Get your d!ck fixed. 

Your wife has had you slotted as a beta/delta provider for a very long time. Far longer than you think. She's a nurse, so there is a high likelihood of extramarital activity in the past that you failed to detect. The boys are out of school now and you have fulfilled your purpose. That's why she "suddenly" wants out. You were the delta who politely raised her kids and now she wants to get plowed hard by some psychologically damaged, very rich alphas.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> Don't try to pull any BDSM on your wife, because she will not respond positively. You aren't qualified for the dominant position, in her mind, since she is making more $$$ than you. My wife tried to read 50 Shades since her friends had raved about it and and she couldn't finish it, because she said every third sentence was some variation of "Christian Grey is the richest man in the world." It's not the idea of bondage sex with Christian Grey that gets women revved up, it's the idea of any kind of sex with "the richest man in the world."
> 
> *You are correct about the book. All about his long fingers & wealth going into chapter 4 (no sex yet). I made more money than her until she suggested I retire from my job and relax my body in a slower easier job a year ago. *
> 
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Wow! I finished NMMNG last night. That book has taught me so much about myself. Never knew I was so f*** up.

Now reading MARRIED MAN'S SEX PRIMER
On chapter 4. This book is making me feel physically ill, light headed. It is a tough read for me.
Who ever would have knew this stuff by what we see in society.
I pray it is not too late for me to change. I hope it is not too late for my wife to see the changes and WANT me again.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

noas55 said:


> You are correct about the book. All about his long fingers & wealth going into chapter 4 (no sex yet). I made more money than her until she suggested I retire from my job and relax my body in a slower easier job a year ago.
> 
> Will be looking at ED problem with doc after I get moved out.
> 
> ...


That's what most of us are, since that's what "society" and the American "churchians" (since about 1840) are pushing as the "correct" behavior.

You'll get better results if you stop violating The Sixteen Commandments. Use your brain and you can see how those will apply to an LTR/marriage just as well as a dating situation. 

You probably also need to look at this Attraction Quiz, as well. Remember, as a general rule, sexual attraction is not a choice for women. It's either on or it's off. They can fake it, too. At least until the kids are out of the house or they get the ring. The point being, what attracts is what attracts. Now, that has to be tempered in an LTR, but if you kill all the attractors in favor of being Mr. Nice Guy, your goose is cooked.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

It's an eye opener. 

Society does not trump human unconscious desire.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

Okay let's run this down.

1. She tells you to leave.

2. She denies you sex

3. She uses you for affection but gives none.

4. She decides on the plan and you follow.

Your reasoning is that you have been a bad husband you have problems communicating your love. Here is a basic concept separation is not going to make you closer do you see the contradiction? Next you are allowing her to treat you selfishly because you have been selfish is this how you would teach your kids? Is this the kind if morality that you believe in? To allow others to hurt you in the mistaken impression that you deserve it. Would you want your kids to be treated like this or would you rather have them stand up for themselves?

I think you are letting her treat you like crap out of guilt and a fear of losing her. Neither of which is a reason to allow others to hurt or take advantage of you. By supporting her selfish demands you ate saying her behavior is okay and acceptable.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Machiavelli said:


> That's what most of us are, since that's what "society" and the American "churchians" (since about 1840) are pushing as the "correct" behavior.
> 
> You'll get better results if you stop violating The Sixteen Commandments. Use your brain and you can see how those will apply to an LTR/marriage just as well as a dating situation.
> 
> You probably also need to look at this Attraction Quiz, as well. Remember, as a general rule, sexual attraction is not a choice for women. It's either on or it's off. They can fake it, too. At least until the kids are out of the house or they get the ring. The point being, what attracts is what attracts. Now, that has to be tempered in an LTR, but if you kill all the attractors in favor of being Mr. Nice Guy, your goose is cooked.


Alas, so many guys wonder why sex stops after kid #2.

Easy answer - he was there for procreation, not attraction.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Alas, so many guys wonder why sex stops after kid #2.
> 
> Easy answer - he was there for procreation, not attraction.


Yes, procreation (we hope) and procreation (most definitely).


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Yes, procreation (we hope) and procreation (most definitely).


In some instances DNA test time.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

I instinctively followed those commandments.

Then I got married.

Won't happen again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> Yes, procreation (we hope) and procreation (most definitely).


That should read:

"Yes, procreation (we hope) and _*provision*_ (most definitely).


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Machiavelli said:


> That should read:
> 
> "Yes, procreation (we hope) and _*provision*_ (most definitely).


No surprise here, eh Mach?

Baffoe: Let’s Mock People Attracted To Aaron Hernandez « CBS Chicago


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Conrad said:


> No surprise here, eh Mach?
> 
> Baffoe: Let’s Mock People Attracted To Aaron Hernandez « CBS Chicago


It's like the sun coming up in the morning. Very predictable.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks for the advice guys. 16 Commandments would have help years ago if I knew them. On the attraction test I scored a -4 now. I took it on how I use to be when I met W and I was +9... big swing over 25 years.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Thanks for the advice guys. 16 Commandments would have help years ago if I knew them. On the attraction test I scored a -4 now. I took it on how I use to be when I met W and I was +9... big swing over 25 years.


Aint' it the truth? Swing it back. Start right now.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thank you NMMNG & the MMSP. 
Monday was one wild strange day. Went shopping together so we could get replacement TV, groceries, and such. Paid bills. 
She got mad and told me one of the things I did that upset her years ago. She was correct and her resentment was deserving.
Had a great time rest of day. Evening comes and we go pick up our future DIL from work. She is running late so we stand outside talking. Eventually she sits on hood of car and it is like a flashback to our early days at the lake. Lot of innocent flirting and talks of memories together. Both of us are relaxed.
Stop by liquor store for wife. She feels like getting drunk. 
Watch TV and cuddle. She is still flirtatious and I am scared and intrigued on where this night is headed.
Sure enough we go to bed. We begin to neck heavily...she stops and apologies, in tears. She feels like she is using me to satisfy her urges (I estimate 2nd day of ovulation)

I tell her I want to have sex. No need to apologize. We are husband & wife. I would rather she come to me than go to someone else with her urges. Animal lust is not wrong. I know this does not mean a thing. Use me because I am going to use you.

Now you must know already I have Ed issues (due to mental state mostly), NEVER had sex with light on (ashamed of myself), Always by the book, and always pleasing her first before me. (stupid me thought that was the "manly" thing to do), Always predetermined time so I could shower (cant stink for the lady)

Yes we had sex. Pure animalistic sex. Lights on, no pre-shower, all over the bed action.

Afterwards she said I don't deserve you. (alarms, confession of affair we cant find?) She clammed u and would not talk, but she took control and off we go again. I have NEVER gone twice in my life. It takes me a while to finish so I am tired after the first time.
Afterwards she was beating herself up, but we both agreed it was great, needed just for our sanity's sake, and I assured her I knew it did not mean we were back together.

Today, her NOT DESERVING comment was brought up. She was tearful, but could not tell me still. She said she was not ready. I told her I knew she was dealing with her own personal demons and I would be there when she was ready to speak.

Of course with the big elephant in the room from last night, her walls were back up quite a bit. 
She still has doubts, but she is trying & has hope. She knows it would be easier for her to walk away. Not sure if she has fight left in her, but is trying to fight.

I know I may have messed up by having sex with her. I feel it was good for several reasons:
1. We both needed it. I really wanted it. There was no love making. It was a good f***
2. We are husband and wife. Both are still saying to each other and God we will be faithful during separation all the way to D. D is still not being mentioned much because she does not want one.
3. My wife saw I could perform and give her what she wanted & desired. I saw I could perform & make myself happy w/o fear of pleasing her first.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Talking too much.

Just do it.

Her man takes her without apologies.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

She had an affair or is having an affair probably with the girlfriend or with the couple. This is a huge game changer as until she breaks it off you will NOT get anywhere. So you need to find out what the hell is going on or break her and have her tell you. Again I can guarantee that she will not tell you on her own until you have proof she will just deny or gaslight. Right now you are thinking that if you just give her time and love that she will eventually tell you but she will NOT do it. 

1. If she does she destroys her affair partners marriage as well.

2. If she does she has to face the guilt of having killed your marriage

3. If she does she will face the shame of having it out in the open.


You need to really decide on what to do before you were kind of on the fence on whether she had an affair after last night it is a guarantee do not discount the fact that she could be sleeping with the other women or with the couple. My advice would be to break her on this.

1. You can get a pen VAR that you put in her purse that is a thought 

2. You are being played you now know this how far is your guilt going to go before you stand up for yourself?

3. How far does your fear of losing her allow her to abuse you by cheating on you?

4. I would go hard 180 let her know you KNOW she is holding back and until she finally decides to be honest you will not have anything more to do with the marriage. Without trust you have no marriage. Without honesty you have no marriage. Right now you have neither of those so at this point you have nothing to lose. 

5. After you have the talk above you go 180. No I love you's. No talks about marriage. No talks outside of kids. Like I said until you have the truth about this you will not get back with her and it all your efforts will be for nothing.

6. You could also just say point blank I think you are cheating if we are going to continue this marriage then I want a polygraph. If she says no then say okay I will file for divorce enjoy your time at their house, and thanks for betraying me.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

It's not a leap to assume she is feeling guilty over having an affair.

Would that change anything for you?

I bet it won't you'd forgive her for just about anything at this point.. but if I'm wrong, you need to consider your next move.

Makeup sex is always the BEST


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

CEL said:


> 1. You can get a pen VAR that you put in her purse that is a thought


Or a VAR under the car seat. Definitely one or the other. 



CEL said:


> 2. You are being played you now know this how far is your guilt going to go before you stand up for yourself?


Until HELL freezes over. 



CEL said:


> 3. How far does your fear of losing her allow her to abuse you by cheating on you?


As far as she will allow it.



CEL said:


> 4. I would go hard 180





CEL said:


> 5. After you have the talk above you go 180.


He isn't capable of doing the 180. He says it's not a good strategy for him because his situation is different than most everyone elses so even though the 180 might work for them, to him it's being mean and he's convinced that he is to blame for everything so being mean only makes it worse.



CEL said:


> You could also just say point blank I think you are cheating if we are going to continue this marriage then I want a polygraph. If she says no then say okay I will file for divorce enjoy your time at their house, and thanks for betraying me.


Great idea but he can't/won't do this. He's not strong enough and/or he thinks it's being mean.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Or a VAR under the car seat. Definitely one or the other.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well SHYTE then give me PM when it changes.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You really need intelligence gathering,

Also what the heck are you doing buying a tv for a woman who is making you leave your house?

I'm seriously thinking there is an affair partner she is trying to be loyal to here.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Shaggy said:


> You really need intelligence gathering,
> 
> Also what the heck are you doing buying a tv for a woman who is making you leave your house?
> 
> I'm seriously thinking there is an affair partner she is trying to be loyal to here.


He's trying to nice her back.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

Of course she's having an affair. Didn't we cover this already? :scratchhead:


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

coachman said:


> Of course she's having an affair. Didn't we cover this already? :scratchhead:


Sounds like the voice of experience


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

Yes sir... this might be the perfect time to have the threesome talk with Noas. :smthumbup:


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Noas, are these people swingers?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I wonder how this other couple would react if you could somehow drop that you and her did it like rabbits - at her request

If one or both of them is the AP, they might flip out.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Shaggy said:


> I wonder how this other couple would react if you could somehow drop that you and her did it like rabbits - at her request
> 
> If one or both of them is the AP, they might flip out.


Worth a shot - drop the bomb and observe the physical reactions they have.

Not what they say.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Thank you NMMNG & the MMSP.
> Monday was one wild strange day. Went shopping together so we could get replacement TV, groceries, and such. Paid bills.
> *She got mad and told me one of the things I did that upset her years ago.* She was correct and her resentment was deserving.


That's her rationalization hamster providing ex post facto justification for infidelity. She's resurrected the offense for just that purpose.



noas55 said:


> She is running late so we stand outside talking. Eventually she sits on hood of car and it is like a flashback to our early days at the lake. Lot of innocent flirting and talks of memories together. Both of us are relaxed.


She was flashing back, too. You were demonstrating attraction.




noas55 said:


> Stop by liquor store for wife. She feels like getting drunk.


She made a decision to have sex with you, but needed the booze to get past the betrayal of her affair partner(s).



noas55 said:


> Watch TV and cuddle. She is still flirtatious and I am scared and intrigued on where this night is headed.
> Sure enough we go to bed. We begin to neck heavily...she stops and apologies, in tears. She feels like she is using me to satisfy her urges (I estimate 2nd day of ovulation)
> 
> I tell her I want to have sex. No need to apologize. We are husband & wife. I would rather she come to me than go to someone else with her urges. Animal lust is not wrong. I know this does not mean a thing. Use me because I am going to use you.


Don't talk, just do her. Never turn down sex with her when offered, unless you've decided to move on. That's a huge problem if you do. Perfectly fine to reject her if you're done with her, or wish to project an illusion of same, because that will send her along her merry way.



noas55 said:


> Now you must know already I have Ed issues (due to mental state mostly), NEVER had sex with light on (ashamed of myself), *Always by the book*, and always pleasing her first before me. (stupid me thought that was the "manly" thing to do), Always predetermined time so I could shower (cant stink for the lady)


Now, you know better. Now you've experienced the real story.

Yes we had sex. Pure animalistic sex. Lights on, no pre-shower, all over the bed action.



noas55 said:


> Afterwards she said *I don't deserve you. *(alarms, confession of affair we cant find?)


You are correct that this is tantamount to a confession. This is a standard line quoted directly from the Adulteress's Script.



noas55 said:


> She clammed u and would not talk, but she took control and off we go again. I have NEVER gone twice in my life. It takes me a while to finish so I am tired after the first time.
> Afterwards she was beating herself up, but we both agreed it was great, needed just for our sanity's sake, and I assured her I knew it did not mean we were back together.
> 
> Today, her NOT DESERVING comment was brought up. She was tearful, but could not tell me still. She said she was not ready. I told her I knew she was dealing with her own personal demons and I would be there when she was ready to speak.


That's fine that you told her that, but now you need to start acting like you have options. If she thinks, rightly or wrongly, that no other woman will have you, she will be repelled by you. If you are indicating to her that she's the only one that can ever be, she'll keep cake eating and stringing you on until she's ready to drop the hammer on you. Have you changed your wardrobe and hair, yet?



noas55 said:


> Of course with the big elephant in the room from last night, her walls were back up quite a bit.
> She still has doubts, *but she is trying & has hope*. She knows it would be easier for her to walk away. Not sure if she has fight left in her, but is trying to fight.


What is she fighting? The urge to get back with you?



noas55 said:


> I know I may have messed up by having sex with her. I feel it was good for several reasons:
> 1. We both needed it. I really wanted it. There was no love making. It was a good f***


Now, she knows you are capable of doing it. Which means maybe her affair partner(s) are not so special and unique after all. Conversely, it means you aren't so worthless in the sack, perhaps.



noas55 said:


> 2. We are husband and wife. Both are still saying to each other and God we will be faithful during separation all the way to D. D is still not being mentioned much because she does not want one.


She hasn't even been faithful before the separation. Somebody's getting porked. Wake up and smell the bacon.



noas55 said:


> 3. My wife saw I could perform and give her what she wanted & desired. I saw I could perform & make myself happy w/o fear of pleasing her first.


So now you need to start projecting that you've got options. Start going out in your new clothes. Change your ride. VAR her car. Crash her party.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

Awesome post Machiavelli. Broken down perfectly.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

noas55, you're heading toward trickle truth world. If you ever want to know what she's done and not just little bits and pieces then you have to go dark. You're story just changed from "unhappy spouse" to "unhappy spouse having an affair who is re-writing history" and trying to justify her actions.

Going dark means zero or minimum contact with her and zero conversations about future, working things out, or any emotional at all. Preferably just leave to 1-2 weeks and only answer phone if you have kid things to talk about. Point being, she won't have you as a safety net and it will scare the crap out of her. It will make her come to you ready to spill whatever beans she's opened.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Last night wife was on call so we had evening together. Most of talking over issues is from her. I start most of talking when it comes to separation.
Tonight she confessed that she had been lying to me for 5 years. She is a social smoker (clubs, BFF house) I was hurt more by the lie than the smoking although I hate it. She was shocked when I told her I was not angry,but did have fantasies of her smoking during sex. She actually said that could be arranged :smthumbup:

She is doing more talking of how we could get through this situation, but she has less faith than me in R. Better than I DOUBT IT. 
More strong loving hugs and passionate kisses than "friendly"pecks or kisses.

Woke to sex in morning. Most defiantly not planned. 18 year old son walked by open bedroom door to restroom & back. Wife always paranoid about this. I did not say a word and continued on the rampage. 
She felt okay with the sex. I did have some problems but she was happy. Good day.

Went to work (split shift today) and came home for few hours. She was in bed getting sleep for her shift tonight. I went in to room to change to cut grass. More rampaging sex. She has never talked dirty in the bedroom...until today & often. "I am the only man for her" was another phrase she used during sex. Blew me away! Grass never got cut  
Good day for me as far as fun time!!!

Answer some statements/questions from people since yesterday:
VAR in purse and car have not shown any affair info this week. 
The couple are not swingers. She thinks the husband is a jerk, pig, poor excuse of husband..... Could still see affair with BFF. Heck I would join that playtime if I could could.

I do think she had an affair in the past 2 years. I told her last night I would forgive her if she did in the past (because of my neglect) and it was over, BUT here on out I would not forgive her. She still denied affair... 

Her BFF has offered me some Viagra from her doctor's office she works. Wife told me she would get it, BUT she would KILL any woman who gets the benefit if it is not her. I assured her that I was not looking. It was for me to use for her. I then told her it was "nice to see she cared enough still to be protective of her territory." 

I am getting some new clothes in a few days. Haircut is my usual burr cut. Receding hairline and balding. Makes it simpler.
She does like the new ME. She says she enjoys my touches now and as you have read....maybe I am exciting to her again.

Guys, when her walls are down she is smiling and happy with me. Holding hands, hugging and kissing. There have been 2 times she stopped short of saying I LOVE YOU and not even in the bedroom. Even once she did say it while crying last week

HER WORDS (analogy): her doubts are based on: take a bad pot hole road. You look down the road and see how dangerous it is. This is our marriage. Now she see repair trucks sitting on the side and work being done. Right now she knows road is still dangerous. Is it worth risking driving down that road again once repaired or will the pot holes come back

With 2-3 weeks left living in same house, it is hard for me to fathom breaking off communications. We have reached major understanding and accomplished a lot in understanding how we got here. she even bought the MMSP off Amazon to understand what I was reading. My Kindle is locked, but she heard about the book from my son. She actually agrees with what she has read.

At this time, I still feel the 180 bit is counterproductive. I basically was doing that over the years as I neglected her. After I am moved and IF she goes against what she has stated she would do, I will do it for sure. Heck just to keep my sanity


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Drop the move. If she still wants to separate, she can move and pay you separate maintenance. Tell her you've decided you're not leaving. The only explanation offered is that she can move, since you like it here..


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

Your either a genius or an idiot I am
Unsure which one.... But no matter what I am very happy for you and my hopes are with ya.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

The husband who is throwing the party is seriously thinking of inviting me anyway to the party tomorrow. I won't crash it out of respect for him. He says if the ladies head to the bars after the party, he will follow later to see what is happening. I found out tonight that the BFF and her husband (this guy) are actually having major issues. So up go the BFF affair flags again. The thing is... if this is truly the affair....If I could join I would be kind of cool with it. IS that sad or what? Not overly attracted to the lady as much as my wife, but a 3 some is kind of intriguing to me.

Youngest son18 told his mom today he understands her position(story) a little. He does not and would not support her until she shows she is trying to repair the marriage. 
She told him she is trying. She has not left and she is looking ahead with me in her life. She just needs to find that love again.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> Drop the move. If she still wants to separate, she can move and pay you separate maintenance. Tell her you've decided you're not leaving. The only explanation offered is that she can move, since you like it here..


I cant afford the home by myself w/o tapping into my retirement. I want to save my marriage, but I cant risk my old age funds if she is going to leave. Looking out for my future


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

CEL said:


> Your either a genius or an idiot I am
> Unsure which one.... But no matter what I am very happy for you and my hopes are with ya.


I am so confounded by all this. I just hope you all know I do value all the opinions & hard talk. As we all know, no solution is cut and dry. Things have to be worked around and strategized before execution can be made.
I know I look stupid to numerous people with my actions, but at this time, some of the things suggested would make me look worse upon myself if I executed them now. I am just finding myself again. I do not need anything else to lower my self worth.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Noas

Stop worrying if you look stupid.

No situation is 100% the same.

And frankly your wife is a mess my friend. I am one of those people that think physical separation very rarely works to solve problems in a marriage. 

In my mind she is running away. 

I think you need to set very clear boundaries for the separation (I think you have) and you both need to agree on a plan to repair the damage.

Along with a date to end the stalemate at least in your mind.

Conrad can probably give you good advice on this scenario.

Keep at it and keep breaking down her walls. 

And screw the grass. Let her cut it!

HM64


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> I cant afford the home by myself w/o tapping into my retirement. I want to save my marriage, but I cant risk my old age funds if she is going to leave. Looking out for my future


Stay.

If she moves out and you cannot afford it, sell it.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Stay.
> 
> If she moves out and you cannot afford it, sell it.


I thought of this. Talked it over with the kids. They have asked me to try to keep home in the family if only for them at this time.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> I thought of this. Talked it over with the kids. They have asked me to try to keep home in the family if only for them at this time.


There won't be a "family" if you fold.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Wow. BAD morning. I confronted her about today's party and my wanting to go. She admits being selfish and stuff. Wants to go alone to relax and get away from the stress of us. lot of arguing. Probably a set back, but I cant change it. I told her SHE kept wanting me to share my feelings. I do and she gets mad and compares a major holiday to her get together with friends. I did not want to go with them then. This is different. I tried to explain but all she could do is stay in the past. 
Hard to deal with her when she gets this way.
She says since I talked to BFF husband, she may not be as welcomed because I brought drama to them. I told her she is over analyzing the situation. She says she now may not be able to relax...Yeah she needs to relax. I am now down to 247 pounds. I have dropped 20 pounds in 2 weeks


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> There won't be a "family" if you fold.


I understand. I am not folding. The home is in my family's name and history. This is why they do not want me to sell it.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Noah's

Go find something to do that is fun somewhere and enjoy yourself.

She is drama.

HM


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Noas
> 
> 
> And frankly your wife is a mess my friend. I am one of those people that think physical separation very rarely works to solve problems in a marriage.
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> Wow. BAD morning. I confronted her about today's party and my wanting to go. She admits being selfish and stuff. Wants to go alone to relax and get away from the stress of us. lot of arguing. Probably a set back, but I cant change it. I told her SHE kept wanting me to share my feelings. I do and she gets mad and compares a major holiday to her get together with friends. I did not want to go with them then. This is different. I tried to explain but all she could do is stay in the past.
> Hard to deal with her when she gets this way.
> She says since I talked to BFF husband, she may not be as welcomed because I brought drama to them. I told her she is over analyzing the situation. She says she now may not be able to relax...Yeah she needs to relax. I am now down to 247 pounds. I have dropped 20 pounds in 2 weeks


This sort of back and forth argument is pointless and appears totally weak to her.

If you peel it back far enough, you are seeking her approval, as you are trying to "convince" her of something.

It is something she will not accept. She will see you as weak for even attempting to gain her approval.

State your boundary.

Let her deal with it.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

How did you let her know you were reading MMSLP? Major faux pas. Now she will just think your actions are fake. Unless the book or whatever is for you both, keep your cards close to your vest. NEVER give up your sources. When you do , they're her sources.

Her reasons she doesn't want you to go to the party are BS. You should simply have asked her what she is hiding. Tell her you can't believe what she says anymore without verification.

Var still in purse?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

noas55 said:


> The husband who is throwing the party is seriously thinking of inviting me anyway to the party tomorrow. I won't crash it out of respect for him. He says if the ladies head to the bars after the party, he will follow later to see what is happening.


So, their plan is to go to the clubs afterward.



noas55 said:


> I found out tonight that the BFF and her husband (this guy) are actually having major issues. So up go the BFF affair flags again.


This actually lowers the affair flags for the BFF and raise the flags for Cougar Pickup Night. BFF is probably your wife's wingwoman.



noas55 said:


> The thing is... if this is truly the affair....If I could join I would be kind of cool with it. IS that sad or what? Not overly attracted to the lady as much as my wife, but a 3 some is kind of intriguing to me.


Which is a nice example of: Most men can be attracted to most women, but most women are not attracted to most men. This little fact, backed up by the vast majority of human cultures that have existed, plus the Pareto Principle, is why I believe polygyny is the natural state of humans. Add in the fact that girl/girl action was not proscribed by any ancient culture I know of, plus the fact that most high testosterone men like the idea, so long as they get to participate, and you reaction is perfectly natural. 

Nevertheless, this threesome idea is pretty lame. 

Number one, the clubbing, and the fact that OWH claims problems with his wife, suggests that WW and OW may actually be picking up men to do in a motel or behind the dumpster. 

Number two, the OW is not attracted to you, so she wouldn't be interested in a threesome. Your WW doesn't rate you high enough to be willing to bring you more women for your pleasure. Your oneitis disease proves to her that such a level of devotion on her part is completely unnecessary. Besides, you have already thrown in the towel and are getting out of your own free will. She is of two minds about this: surprised and subconsciously hurt that you would be so submissive (when you are supposed to be the man); and pleased, since she will be able to ramp up her extracurricular sexual activities (whatever they may prove to be) in your physical absence.

Number Three, OW is married to your "friend." Such a threeway constitutes adultery on your part. Do you really want to go there?
You can arrange for this at your friendly neighborhood swinger club and everyone can commit adultery together and you don't have to worry too much about getting shot, stabbed, or mutilated.



noas55 said:


> Youngest son18 told his mom today he understands her position(story) a little. He does not and would not support her until she shows she is trying to repair the marriage.
> *She told him she is trying. She has not left and she is looking ahead with me in her life.* She just needs to find that love again.


So, why are you moving out, again?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

noas55 said:


> I cant afford the home by myself w/o tapping into my retirement. I want to save my marriage, but I cant risk my old age funds if she is going to leave. Looking out for my future


If money is that tight, why are you wasting it on renting an apartment?



noas55 said:


> I thought of this. Talked it over with the kids. They have asked me to try to keep home in the family if only for them at this time.


Sounds like your WW's actions are making that scenario less and less likely each day.



noas55 said:


> some of the things suggested would make me look worse upon myself if I executed them now. I am just finding myself again. I do not need anything else to lower my self worth.


So stop lowering your internal and external esteem by letting her call all the shots and sending you packing. You realize you take one step forward and two steps back, but once you're out of the house, you're really going to be done, at least with her. Which is probably a good thing, although you don't recognize it yet. Nevertheless, it is inevitable.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> This sort of back and forth argument is pointless and appears totally weak to her.
> 
> If you peel it back far enough, you are seeking her approval, as you are trying to "convince" her of something.
> 
> ...


Reached this point today with her. Will post soon.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> How did you let her know you were reading MMSLP? Major faux pas. Now she will just think your actions are fake. Unless the book or whatever is for you both, keep your cards close to your vest. NEVER give up your sources. When you do , they're her sources.
> 
> Her reasons she doesn't want you to go to the party are BS. You should simply have asked her what she is hiding. Tell her you can't believe what she says anymore without verification.
> 
> Var still in purse?


My youngest son was on my kindle. he saw the book. Asked questions. From there at some point he left my kindle open, she saw what I was reading. She admits reading chapters 2-4 before I got home. She agrees pretty much with the book. That was why she bought it. To help her understand about me as well.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

While I was at work this evening, S18 tore into his mother tonight over the party tonight and me not being allowed to attend. He Basically told her he was tired of her acting like a damn kid throwing a temper tantrum. The story goes that her BFF had not called her to come to party when she was ready to go. W blamed me for presenting drama to BFF & my friend so this was the reason. He told her maybe their kids were the issue, or maybe there were other reasons besides me. He told W to quit blaming me for everything and to get her head out of the past. These 3 weeks have been fantastic and everyone can see the positive changes in me. (She had shocked look he said)
Her co-workers have even begun to tell her she is being a selfish B and siding with me. She wanted change. It is there, be happy and accept it. Don't push it away.(Her words this morning)

She started to walk out of house to escape their yelling argument, he told her to keep walking since she planned to leave anyway. How could he support her when she was looking for excuses. Lot more besides this.
He called me later crying, afraid he may ruined any chance I had. I told him. BS, if this was enough to cause her to walk, she was leaving anyway.
She went to a casino to smoke and calm down after I called her to assure her our son was alright. 

She went to her party. Still there. No one is going to the bar. Simple fireworks and food, minor drinking. 10:30pm my time and she is still there. I figure she will be there till 1am or so.

I went with my oldest S21 to his wife's family BBQ. Ate a good meal, had 2 beers, and enjoyed myself. My son and I were never close until he turned 18. He is really watching out for me and we have truly bonded. Great time as we both watched fireworks, talked about situation, and had good drinking time.
I am actually at peace tonight. I pray it continues.

Someone asked why I was getting apt if money is tight.
We are fine financially. Wife makes more than me now because of 30 hour limits by my job due to Obamacare. Therefore she can afford to manage the home. My pay will manage it but there would be no extras. We are still working together as a team on money matters at this time. Separate accounts, but each can do transactions if needed for emergency. Together we can afford this set-up without crippling us. She knows if she screws me she will lose the kids, me, and even friends. 

Part of her conflict is that several friends support her (mom and other man haters, recently divorced) while many do not.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

noas, take care of yourself and make room for her if she treats you right. Don't manipulate and guilt her into staying because that's going to make her feel trapped. Clinging and grasping is driven by insecurity and fear and it makes you less and less in her eyes. If she doesn't want to be with you then it's her problem. If you think you don't deserve her then that's your problem. That's a depressing and helpless way to feel. 

Most of the material you've read and a lot of the comments on this thread have a central theme
- insecurity and fear will make you look weak to her.
- insecurity and fear will make you feel weak to yourself.
- you do have control of your own actions.
- you don't have control of her actions (not directly anyway).
- you will be fine if you stay together or separate or divorce or reconcile, etc.
- Oh; and the by product of taking care of you is you gain respect and become more attractive to those around you.

Point is, you take care of you. You believe that you deserve to be with someone who wants you and treats you right. My personal opinion even though you haven't uncovered it yet is that she's in a full blown physical and emotional affair wtih someone. All of the warning signs are there. If thats correct then she's in something called "the fog" and she's not thinking clearly. She feels in control and you're helping her because she knows she has a safe landing spot if things dont' work out. You're also lowering your worth to her and to yourself because you're not being very respectful to yourself by tolerating what she's doing.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

That it was discussed that your wife and the bff may go to the bars after the party is something I do not remember you saying. Do they go out to bars/clubs together? How often? This changes everything if they are indeed bar/club hopping together.

This is a horse of another color.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Here is a post that has helped a lot of people. As always you have to make the call but it seems to me she could care less about you and your kids if it interferes with what she wants to do.

*Originally Posted by marduk View Post 
I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.

A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.

Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed? Me. Here’s what I learned:

1. Let her go. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.

2. Set boundaries, and then stick to them. I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.

3. Be ok with losing her. Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.

4. Do my own thing. I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…

5. Be a father to our children. Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.

6. Get some buddies. Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.

7. Fight different. Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.

8. Act from a place of strength. I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.

9. Be decisive. Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.

10. Know what I want from life. This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.

11. Do more macho stuff. Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a man and not one of her girlfriends.

So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.

Thanks for everything!*


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you got to the MAP plan in MMSLP yet?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> Here is a post that has helped a lot of people. As always you have to make the call but it seems to me she could care less about you and your kids if it interferes with what she wants to do.


:iagree:
noas, I used to have the thread bookmarked that Chararral just quoted. It's really good to read.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas,

Had one of those conversations with my wife last night.

Told her if she "really" felt about me like she said she did, her car was right there and she should hit the road.

She was gone for 20 minutes.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> noas, take care of yourself and make room for her if she treats you right. Don't manipulate and guilt her into staying because that's going to make her feel trapped. Clinging and grasping is driven by insecurity and fear and it makes you less and less in her eyes. If she doesn't want to be with you then it's her problem. If you think you don't deserve her then that's your problem. That's a depressing and helpless way to feel.
> 
> Most of the material you've read and a lot of the comments on this thread have a central theme
> - insecurity and fear will make you look weak to her.
> ...


I agree with you on all the above. She is in a fog for sure. Willing to throw her WHOLE family away. She is so lost it isn't funny. She says she does not deserve me. I still love my wife and I deserve her WHEN she is loving, caring and fulfilling her role.
I am getting tougher each day. Emotions are settling down and I can now think clearly. Boys and I are now planning for when wife "MAY" leave.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> That it was discussed that your wife and the bff may go to the bars after the party is something I do not remember you saying. Do they go out to bars/clubs together? How often? This changes everything if they are indeed bar/club hopping together.
> 
> This is a horse of another color.


The idea had been mentioned. It never happened. AT THIS MOMENT and in the pass, they went to clubs about once every 4-6 months and to celebrate birthdays ...all girls night.
Of course I can see this changing upon separation. Wife knows deal breakers with me and kids on this situation


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Have you got to the MAP plan in MMSLP yet?


Working more hours to get ready for separation so less reading time.
Just started it tonight


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Well today was decent. Walls were down, but not much smiles. Relaxing all the less.
Talked over money. She feels right now that after I get moved and all (joint account funds) she should get to keep money since we both have similar potential of savings showing on budget program.
Yeah.. right. The boys are freaking pissed now. They feel she is going back on her word to me and them about not screwing me over while trying to work this crap out.
Am I worried about her REALLY meaning to screw me over? Of course. Can't trust her right now. 
I do think it really is an oversight since she has never handled the budget before. All I am asking for is 1/2. 
I think she is wanting it all so she can go on her trip to Texas to see her ailing grandmother. Which is stupid because I told her in the beginning I would help her out if she did not screw me. 
How in the heck do you deal with people in this type of selfish BS FOG?


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

noas55 said:


> Well today was decent. Walls were down, but not much smiles. Relaxing all the less.
> Talked over money. She feels right now that after I get moved and all (joint account funds) she should get to keep money since we both have similar potential of savings showing on budget program.
> Yeah.. right. The boys are freaking pissed now. They feel she is going back on her word to me and them about not screwing me over while trying to work this crap out.
> Am I worried about her REALLY meaning to screw me over? Of course. Can't trust her right now.
> ...


Stand up for yourself. No conflict avoidance be clear and calm and state the facts of your case. Be clear on what you need and stick to it. If she is saying things like this tell her unless I KNOW I will be okay moving out I will not move out. Here is the deal you are moving out from your home on HER say so because SHE wants you to. Once out she can make your life shyte if she wants to and no amount of peer pressure or kids pressure will really change a thing.

You can sign your lease and she can make another account change her bills and completely cut you off. You know what you would be able to do about it? Nothing not without a lawyer and then the courts you would be screwed after all the lease will be in YOUR name so your apartment is on YOU. This is why so many say don't leave the house if someone wants space they can leave or DEAL with it.

When a person is in the fog they are not your spouse they are crazy wakadoodle critter who can and probably will do anything. You see your wife but that is NOT your wife think pod person or zombie. You need to REALLY take a step back and decide on what you NEED when you move out and if you can do it all on your OWN because if you can't you need to stay in the house otherwise you could end up over a barrel with bubba behind you spitting in his hand "I know pretty graphic but it gets the point across". And I don't care what kind of sex you are having or how special she makes you feel. Money is money and feelings are feelings the two need never meet. Feelings never helped me pay the bills and feelings never fed me as a kid. So YOU better sit down and REALLY think this through as in WORSE case scenario as in she does decide to SCREW you over what can you do?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks CEL: I am thinking it through. The boys and I crunched numbers and insured I will be alright IF she screw me over. The problem is in unforseen high dollar expenses.
The agreement is that we help each other pay medical bills, help on all major expenses...like we always have. She has told the boys she would help me if my car broke down or needed other unforeseen emergency expenses.

She knows we are going to talk about the money. If she want agree, well it will be ugly for all the family.


SIDE NOTE: We are Preppers in a way. Another reason I am doing all to save home.

She told S18 yesterday that she would help me even if she was with another man. The man would just have to understand that she would drop everything to be there if I NEEDED her or requested her.
This goes hand in hand with her statement weeks ago that if TSHTF she wanted me home and she would tell any guy that it was the way it would be or he could leave or die. The boys would have no respect for the man so you can guess their mindset on the guy being there.

I live in Oklahoma so you all know about our little tornado problems  If storms are coming she wants me out of apt and home so we can watch/chase the storms together because we make a good team.
These are statements that baffle me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> Well today was decent. Walls were down, but not much smiles. Relaxing all the less.
> Talked over money. She feels right now that after I get moved and all (joint account funds) she should get to keep money since we both have similar potential of savings showing on budget program.
> Yeah.. right. The boys are freaking pissed now. They feel she is going back on her word to me and them about not screwing me over while trying to work this crap out.
> Am I worried about her REALLY meaning to screw me over? Of course. Can't trust her right now.
> ...


At some point you will wish you had listened more.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

noas55 said:


> Thanks CEL: I am thinking it through. The boys and I crunched numbers and insured I will be alright IF she screw me over. The problem is in unforseen high dollar expenses.
> The agreement is that we help each other pay medical bills, help on all major expenses...like we always have. She has told the boys she would help me if my car broke down or needed other unforeseen emergency expenses.
> 
> She knows we are going to talk about the money. If she want agree, well it will be ugly for all the family.
> ...


The problem with this is that these are WORDS her actions point to a whole different thing. She is asking you to leave your HOME because she wants to DATE you. You fulfill her needs while she neglects YOURS. You have proven to be there for her and now she is proving she is unsure whether she wants to be there for YOU. These are actions that she is taking the words of her vows, of her love, of her commitment to you are not really in evidence. So here are your rules for separation.

The plan is at the start of separation I come do laundry twice a week, see my S18 when he is there. During laundry we will visit, maybe go do shopping that we need. (1-3 hours) After I get W/D set I will go over once or twice a week.
No eating at our favorite spots.

At this time, 3-4 months in the separation if we get this far, we will begin going out once a week to eat, possible movie. No dating. We both feel that this is needed to see if she can reconnect with me.

*So really no contact for 3 to 4 months except regular stuff this is to long you need to set aside date night once a week at the outset otherwise this is not going to work for you. How does she expect to reconnect if you are not there?*

1) Time for pulling the plug is 1 year. If nothing is different we walk away peacefully. If there are positive changes, we continue with new deadline. 
2) Any rules broken will result in her losing me and the kids. Any affairs will result in full all out exposure
3) No dating others, no close dancing or party situations that can lead to affairs are allowed (both agree for various reasons) *Does this include those parties at the friends house?*
4) Wedding rings must stay on
5) We must attend counseling and church before we can R and live together again *Make MC a mandatory NOW not later. This will do you no good later as you will both be moved on. You go to MC when you are having problems working on things not after both of you have detached.*
6) Febr 17th our 25th anniversary...neither one can go out unless together

Make the above changes BEFORE you move out. Start MC BEFORE you move out.


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

Conrad said:


> At some point you will wish you had listened more.


I had a lengthy reply for Noas but then figured it wasn't worth the trouble since all advice given has been ignored.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Noas,

Do not move out.

If she is unhappy, she leaves the family, not you.

It's also time to laydown a basic rule - if there is another an from this day forward, she is dead to you and should not ever think she will return to your home or family.

And then inform her, this is your home and your family and you are not leaving.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Trying to figure out way where I don't move. 
She is playing nice today on phone. She is at BFF parents home celebrating BFF birthday. Funny thing about this... Turns out BFF has another lady friend that is her BFF. This is why my W could not go over early the other day when she was blaming me. LOL 

Starting to take care of myself. About to finish MMSP and start its program. May read Divorce Buster next unless ya have other suggestion. 

The boys wanted me to ask the board what they thought of somethings. 
1) They are wanting all four of us to sit down for a discussion where we answer their questions honestly. They want each parent to hear how they feel together, see the reaction and hear the answers. I have no problem with it. Is this a good idea?
2) My sons are wanting me to stay home with mom while we are trying to work this out. They and I feel that she cant see the changes if I am not living here. We cant reconnect either. They also know that if I move it reduces R rate. They are asking if there may be a way to explain this to her

If she was to accept arrangement, any suggestion of length of time to suggest. I was thinking 6 months, but that might be to short, unless we say if no improvements in her needs(?)


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Your sons are right.

If you move out, kiss your marriage goodbye.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Coach: I would like to hear your opinion. I understand you might think I am not listening to advice. Actually I am. Maybe not all advice, but I am coming around to use the advice I have learned. Not all situations are the same. I have to work with what I feel I can use at this time.

Like I have stated before. I don't trust people easily. This is a big issue so scrutiny of advice is going to be normal. Right or wrong.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Your sons are right.
> 
> If you move out, kiss your marriage goodbye.


That is what I am afraid of. This is why I am trying to figure a way to stay. BUT if she leaves quickly, I will most assuredly have to sell my home. This is where I am hoping she will let us stay together for 6 months to a year before we separate/divorce. I can get my ducks in a row and be able to cover my butt


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> That is what I am afraid of. This is why I am trying to figure a way to stay. BUT if she leaves quickly, I will most assuredly have to sell my home. This is where I am hoping she will let us stay together for 6 months to a year before we separate/divorce. I can get my ducks in a row and be able to cover my butt


Then stand tall and sell if she calls your bluff.

It will be the way to call hers - and let your kids know where you stand.

And, more importantly, where she stands.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Then stand tall and sell if she calls your bluff.
> 
> It will be the way to call hers - and let your kids know where you stand.
> 
> And, more importantly, where she stands.


I guess the time to do this will be Mon or Tues. Oldest son is talking to W while I work tomorrow.
They want to have this 4 way meeting on Mon or Tues.
I guess I will know more of how she is feeling after her talk tomorrow. My sons are like...gonna walk..do it. Give dad some peace. He is changing like you asked, You have said so yourself. 

To me I feel like: Not good enough...someone other lady will enjoy it.. IF I get over W. I know it will take a long time to get over her and be able to form a good relationship with another woman. I fear I don't have that in me


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

noas55 said:


> Trying to figure out way where I don't move.
> She is playing nice today on phone. She is at BFF parents home celebrating BFF birthday. Funny thing about this... Turns out BFF has another lady friend that is her BFF. This is why my W could not go over early the other day when she was blaming me. LOL
> 
> Starting to take care of myself. About to finish MMSP and start its program. May read Divorce Buster next unless ya have other suggestion.
> ...



Do it. This is a family decision and should be taken up with the family they have a right to there say and it helps to get it all out. Plus if she goes back on stuff they will know she lied to you. Really there is no downside for you. I will say that I would not move out your chance of success reduces as soon as you do that. I would put MC on the table NO MATTER WHAT you need to start MC to start talking and getting through your problems plus having a 3rd party mediate would be good for you. 

As for a way to do it this is simple have everyone right out there thoughts everyone gets a turn to say there piece then you open up for discussion. Be calm, clear and don't WUSS out. DO NOT avoid conflict just be calm and firm and lay out what YOU want and need as well as what you are wiling to give. Be honest with yourself let her know you are 100% for the marriage but that you deserve to be with someone who also wants to work on the marriage 100%. You need to both be willing to work on things not just run away because she wants to. I would also lay out that you need honesty in this relationship no falsehood and that all the cards should be on the table. This means that if anyone has anything to disclose this should be it, I would be upfront with her. Some points that I would cover are.

1. She is deciding what she wants with no regard for what you want or need. That she has put the whole relationship on your shoulders with only a tentative I might change my mind. That after YEARS of marriage you think she could at least be more sensitive to your needs. A marriage is 50/50 and if it is a bad marriage BOTH parties share in the responsibility and that saying that you know you are being selfish while continuing to do it is called cruelty. How would she like it if you dictated to her your terms for continuing the marriage? How would she feel if you told her you no longer loved her and wanted her to move out? How would she feel if YOU made a decision to break up the family without even really giving her a chance to have input? Would she enjoy it if you made a decision with such unilateral authority?

2. Currently she is taking all the emotional support she needs while giving nothing back. Is this how she wants the relationship to continue? If it is you mine as well get a divorce. Would she enjoy it if you only took emotionally from her? Does this sound like a good basis for Reconciliation? Or instead is this the start of divorce?

3. She has had time to make this decision but you have not because she did not consult you. Instead of opening up to how bad the problems where she has made the choice for YOUR WHOLE family of what is best. How would she feel if while you supported her if you had decided that is was best for you family to just stop doing that?

4. Why does she feel she is entitled to have her needs met while not meeting yours? Is she worth more than you are? Does the pain you have caused her give her the right to do this.


If after 6 months and MC and you spending time together has not changed things and provided ALL have been honest then you part ways amicably.

Books to Read

His Needs Her Needs
Love Busters
Workbook for the above 5 Steps to Romantic Love.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

noas55 said:


> I guess the time to do this will be Mon or Tues. Oldest son is talking to W while I work tomorrow.
> They want to have this 4 way meeting on Mon or Tues.
> I guess I will know more of how she is feeling after her talk tomorrow. My sons are like...gonna walk..do it. Give dad some peace. He is changing like you asked, You have said so yourself.
> 
> To me I feel like: Not good enough...someone other lady will enjoy it.. IF I get over W. I know it will take a long time to get over her and be able to form a good relationship with another woman. I fear I don't have that in me


You are already looking at defeat...WTF. Go into this with fire in your gut and grit in your eye!! Not slup shouldered defeat! **** hit her up tonight and have the talk quit this walking on eggshells crap and TALK to her. Sit her down with the sons and DO IT! You waiting is thinking you sons talking to her is going to really change anything it will not, you need to have some balls and just take this bull by the horns. Tonight sit her down with the sons and DO IT!


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Mmsl would tell you to go to the party ,just show up and be the centre of it all. To heck with your wife's plan for you.

Would Kirk sit home and mope?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

CEL said:


> Do it. This is a family decision and should be taken up with the family they have a right to there say and it helps to get it all out. Plus if she goes back on stuff they will know she lied to you. Really there is no downside for you. I will say that I would not move out your chance of success reduces as soon as you do that. I would put MC on the table NO MATTER WHAT you need to start MC to start talking and getting through your problems plus having a 3rd party mediate would be good for you.
> 
> As for a way to do it this is simple have everyone right out there thoughts everyone gets a turn to say there piece then you open up for discussion. Be calm, clear and don't WUSS out. DO NOT avoid conflict just be calm and firm and lay out what YOU want and need as well as what you are wiling to give. Be honest with yourself let her know you are 100% for the marriage but that you deserve to be with someone who also wants to work on the marriage 100%. You need to both be willing to work on things not just run away because she wants to. I would also lay out that you need honesty in this relationship no falsehood and that all the cards should be on the table. This means that if anyone has anything to disclose this should be it, I would be upfront with her. Some points that I would cover are.
> 
> ...



Thanks! All great insight to how I feel. I am normally a take charge person, but this separation has turned me so inside out that I cant eat, sleep, or think straight.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Thanks! All great insight to how I feel. I am normally a take charge person, but this separation has turned me so inside out that I cant eat, sleep, or think straight.


Tonight it's time to change that.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

CEL said:


> You are already looking at defeat...WTF. Go into this with fire in your gut and grit in your eye!! Not slup shouldered defeat! **** hit her up tonight and have the talk quit this walking on eggshells crap and TALK to her. Sit her down with the sons and DO IT! You waiting is thinking you sons talking to her is going to really change anything it will not, you need to have some balls and just take this bull by the horns. Tonight sit her down with the sons and DO IT!


She is at a party tonight. Both boys are working tonight. Best time to get all together is possible tomorrow evening and most likely Mon or Tues

I guess I am looking defeated because I am still kinda deflated from this whole mess. Each day I am getting stronger, madder about what she is doing, and just want my life back...with or w/o her. I know the boys will stick with me if she leaves. I do fear for their relationship with their mother. It's is natural to care.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Mmsl would tell you to go to the party ,just show up and be the centre of it all. To heck with your wife's plan for you.
> 
> Would Kirk sit home and mope?


The party is out of town. An hour away. I do not know the BFFs parents. Never been there.

Not moping. Actually I have been cutting grass and cleaning house while W is playing. It's ok. If I stay, my house is clean. If I leave the boys have already said they will not assist her unless I tell them too.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I see you have to choices

1- find the party and invite yourself

2- don't be home when she returns, just leave and be away for a day or two

The worst most pathetic thing to do is to waiting there for her to return like a good puppy


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> I see you have to choices
> 
> 1- find the party and invite yourself
> 
> ...


I couldn't find the party if I tried. I don't know the address. BFF husband is there now. We are suppose to go for beers and shoot pool later.

I am not waiting for her like a pup. I am taking care of my home, waiting for my oldest son to drop by and then go to the bar. I know you did not know this.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

noas55 said:


> I couldn't find the party if I tried. I don't know the address. BFF husband is there now. We are suppose to go for beers and shoot pool later.
> 
> I am not waiting for her like a pup. I am taking care of my home, waiting for my oldest son to drop by and then go to the bar. I know you did not know this.


BFF husband is at the party 1.5 hrs away and then he's coming to you to shoot pool?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> BFF husband is at the party 1.5 hrs away and then he's coming to you to shoot pool?


Like most in laws,they do not get along. Their relationship is more hate than dislike. He hates going out there. His youngest son asked him to show up for a while.
He drove out to visit then leave for home. We are going out to help us both decompress


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

noas55 said:


> Like most in laws,they do not get along. Their relationship is more hate than dislike. He hates going out there. His youngest son asked him to show up for a while.
> He drove out to visit then leave for home. We are going out to help us both decompress


When is your wife coming home?

Seriously, you need to act out a little, you really are nice and safe for her,

Get drunk, don't come home tonight,


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> When is your wife coming home?
> 
> Seriously, you need to act out a little, you really are nice and safe for her,
> 
> Get drunk, don't come home tonight,


Not sure of her arrival. She will text me when she gets close to town. I plan on getting lose at least. Don't want to get too drunk in case she wants sex  At the club I am pretty relaxed. In the past, she always looked for women who show too much interest my way. Although I have never done anything to make her jealous, she does have that streak as you saw in an earlier post


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

noas55 said:


> Not sure of her arrival. She will text me when she gets close to town. I plan on getting lose at least. Don't want to get too drunk in case she wants sex  At the club I am pretty relaxed. In the past, she always looked for women who show too much interest my way. Although I have never done anything to make her jealous, she does have that streak as you saw in an earlier post


Dude, again back to mmsl, you keeping yourself fresh incase she happens to want sex is not you leading and doing what you want. It's you keeping the fire lit at home for her return.

Look I'm nit trying to steer you wrong, I'm trying to get get you to lead not follow


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

NOAs

Your wife will never respect you or really want o be with you unless you tell her No!

No. I will not move out.

No. I will not give you full control of our finances.

No. I will not wait around while you figure out your midlife crisis or if you are going to ever be in love with me again.

The more I read she seems to be the one with the issues.

So this week let her know you are not leaving and you are here to work on the marriage together.

If she cuts and bails on you /your boys then get an attorney. Serve her D papers quickly.

You need to show her the new and improved Noas.

Make her realize now what she is going to lose. 

For some reason I think your wife is way ahead of you and looking to leave you.

I hope that is not the case.

HM


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Dude, again back to mmsl, you keeping yourself fresh incase she happens to want sex is not you leading and doing what you want. It's you keeping the fire lit at home for her return.
> 
> Look I'm nit trying to steer you wrong, I'm trying to get get you to lead not follow


LOL I am not getting drunk for sex for me. I want some. I hope she does to. I am looking for it. When I drink too much I cant perform intercourse. All else is works but that. That one thing is what I want


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> NOAs
> 
> Your wife will never respect you or really want o be with you unless you tell her No!
> 
> ...


That is what I am aiming to do Mon or Tues. I have already typed out my statement for her and the kids for our family meeting. That is where she will see how I feel and my reasons for not moving and what I want. The meeting will show how the family feels for sure. She has heard it before but her answers are slightly different. When we are all together, she has to answer for her actions or lose us.

I truly hope she can escape the fog long enough to be rational.

In my state I can file for D but the judges prefer 1 year separation first with counseling especially when adultery or violence is not present. In some long term marriages the judges have ordered 2 years

I agree my wife is ahead of me. She says she has been feeling this way for 5 years. This is one of the things that the boys hate right now. They know she is full of it. She is rewriting her marriage history. They have already called her out on it several times.
Do I think she is looking to leave. Yes although she says she is trying. I think she thinks it will be exciting and easier for her. Dumb B


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

> I agree my wife is ahead of me. She says she has been feeling this way for 5 years. This is one of the things that the boys hate right now. They know she is full of it. She is rewriting her marriage history. They have already called her out on it several times.
> Do I think she is looking to leave. Yes although she says she is trying. I think she thinks it will be exciting and easier for her. Dumb B


Ok. I can see you are clearly ready for your family meeting.

Do not let her lie or BS her way out....

Good luck


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Ok. I can see you are clearly ready for your family meeting.
> 
> Do not let her lie or BS her way out....
> 
> Good luck


Thanks. I know I may be late for the dance, but the party starts when I arrive.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Like I have stated before. I don't trust people easily. This is a big issue so scrutiny of advice is going to be normal. Right or wrong.


Marriage advice is tricky noas. You read the comments and take into consideration the source and determine what you think the source's motives are. Is it based on helping you or is it based on exercising their (our) demons of what poster X or poster Y wishes they would have done? Probably a little of both and yes there's ton of baggage on marriage forums.

That being said, it's scary and enlightening to see the patterns play out over and over. I sincerely hope you analyze the advice here and in materials you've been reading and get the common themes. Things like knowng you deserve to be treated with respect, not settling for emotional scraps, and knowing when there are warnng signs. There's not a "relationship spiral university" or "cheaters university" that people attend but you would think there is when seeing the similar cause and effect scenarios play out over and over and over.

It really does come down a just a couple of paramount ideas or *core principals* to really grasp onto. *You noas define your own worth to those around you including your wife*. That may sound like a blanket statement but I think it's important to think about. Any specific scenario can be twisted or spun but fundamental pricipals cannot.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

noas55 said:


> She told S18 yesterday that she would help me even if she was with another man.


This is the plan, my friend. She just needs you to get out of the house, so it can move forward.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Machiavelli said:


> This is the plan, my friend. She just needs you to get out of the house, so it can move forward.


She's "preparing" everyone for it.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

noas55 said:


> That is what I am afraid of. This is why I am trying to figure a way to stay. BUT if she leaves quickly, I will most assuredly have to sell my home. This is where I am hoping she will let us stay together for 6 months to a year before we separate/divorce. I can get my ducks in a row and be able to cover my butt


Although you should use realtor you should start working on a for sale sign. Tell her you don't think she is serious about keeping the family together. 

Another book you need to read is NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY. I don't know how many times a fellow has come here ready to take all the blame and it turns out to be the opposite. This thread has that written all over it. Do not bother denying this until you have read the book. You can get it free on line.

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

As far as giving up on you even though you really don't get what is going on, most of us see the same train heading your way we have seen before over and over. There is usually a wreck but occasionally we get to jerk someone off the tracks.

Her comments about helping you even if she is with another man are particularly condescending, like you will all be one big happy family. At least be honest with her on this point. If my wife said this to me, I would immediately tell her I would make sure I never spoke or saw her again.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

BTW, you should also print off your states divorce packet and let her see the real world. You may have to pick up the packet at the county court house. One way or the other she has to be shocked onto the reality of the situation. 

Also, when she starts telling you how generous she will be, point out that you and your new woman will be fine without her.

Also google that statistics for a woman her age getting remarried and show them to her.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Conrad said:


> She's "preparing" everyone for it.


How nice of her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Update after talks & my 7 page letter on how I felt (pissed her off at times): Not much different but at least I know where we stand and know I do have a better than slim fighting chance.
Basically as my S21 put it..She pushed the F**K It button and destroyed the marriage. She wants to see if we can rebuild the marriage. We already have a head start due to good memories, but we both need to make changes in ourselves. She has to learn to forget the past (this is the big hurdle for her) 
She wants to be out from under my thumb, per se. She likes the new "me" but is skeptical because it came about so quickly, after all these years. She is hoping it sticks. She still does not know if she can ever be IN LOVE and we can R, but she wants to give it a good shot. She is VERY SCARED though. Time will tell. When her walls come down she can feel the love and it scares her so up they go.

Still does not want to do too much too soon as far as special events, nice restaurants, dancing, etc. I do feel this will change quickly. Another post will explain. We will see each other 2-5 times a week from 10 min visits to afternoon long visits. Some days may be all day (her statement). Still see cats and son as pleased and do laundry and borrow what I need as needed. I will still have keys to everything.

No affairs before or now. We will stay 100 % exclusive and she told the boys she knew they would leave her if she broke this promise .Realizes EA with BFF, but as stated earlier that has cooled down now that BFF has a "new" friend so she is busy. We have finally got me a wedding ring. She is glad as well as I am. We did find one to replace this cheap one for our renewed vows IF we get back together. That one we slipped on my finger and she became emotionally very quickly. She stated it was a good emotion.

A woman accidentally rubbed her breasts on me at the store and my W about came apart. Thankfully my sons cooled her down. I have never seen her act this way before. She has made comments but no actions.:scratchhead:

I am still moving out, but legal papers are drawn so she cant sell house or move anyone into home w/o my consent.

Even though her friends tell her no sex, she wants to, but she does get anxiety over it. They say she is giving me MIXED SIGNALS. I told her to quit listening to them. We do not hate each other, I know what is going on, and besides we are married still and if we want to have sex for pleasure, let's use each other instead of having affairs. She agrees, just her dumb a** friends getting involved...all D or admitted cheaters in bad relations. I do expect the sex to cool down when I move for a while, but she really likes the new "me" even in the bedroom. She says she will tell me her fantasies over time.

Since we have always been honest on money, joint accounts, and such...she agreed to both of us being able to view both parties financial budgets if either party felt the other was being screwing the other over financially. Part of trust and one less thing for us to worry about. This is a BIG step on protecting myself from being screwed. All money must be accounted for and we still plan to assist each other as needed. My retirement is mine and all life insurance policies stay to each other or goes to kids. As of now they all go to her & I with kids as auxiliary beneficiaries.

She still has anxiety on fleeing if I "push" too much she says, but she does love the attention I give her. I know she was STARVED here as well.

In summary, she described the situation of possible R this way: We have a million piece puzzle of a fireworks show picture. I am putting the corners of the puzzle together while she sees nearly a million similar pieces and she has no clue on where or how to start. I told her we have time, but we do this together one piece at a time.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> She's "preparing" everyone for it.


Her statement was IF a divorce ever came about. If she found another man, he would be in my shadow. 
She admits that she knows she could be alone her whole life and that scares her to the core. She knows I would be there, but she does not know if she could live with me again. Too much damage. In time the pain may go away and she will be able to let me come home.

She does not want to be alone her whole life, but her religious beliefs do not allow her to even file for divorce over this. 
She knows she can't be with another man/woman unless I allow her or she is breaking one of God's big rules.
I know I would grant a divorce if I come to realize I have no chance and she had an interest in someone later on down the road (year or so). I do want us to be happy together, but I do want her to be happy.
Divorce is not even in our discussions. It upsets both of us very much and we are not even considering it.
At this time we are calling this a "location separation".
We are married still, physically involved, and still care deeply for each other. She needs space to feel like she is no longer under my control and to see if my changes are real or fake.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> A woman accidentally rubbed her breasts on me at the store


I hate when that happens.

It's gotten so bad lately I'm actually fearful of stepping foot inside the supermarket.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Tuesday was a hard day as we began packing stuff for my move. Some laughs but some tearful hard moments. I had some roses delivered to our home in the afternoon. I told her to dress up nice for we were going out at 5pm. She smiled and coyly played the "what's the secret" game.

Note I never ever dressed up much after year 3 of marriage.We didn't go places & I quit being spontaneous. First born came about and began working 10 hour shifts.. Classic BETA/DELTA attack began when I started out as Alpha/Beta.

We got dressed up and drove 50 miles to a steakhouse OKC I always wanted to go to, but never did. We both love steak and she was nervous but happy for I never told her where we were going! 
When being seated I asked her smoking or non-smoking? This floored her for she knows I hate sitting in smoke while eating. (Non-smoking it was because she hates smoking while eating)
I sat next to her in the booth (always sat across from her before) which surprised her. 
We left and headed back to our town THEN I said night is not over and we went to movies (Channing Tatum's WHITE HOUSE DOWN) I figured this might get the juices flowing) Had a great 2 hours holding her hand and thighs.
Went home and watched a little TV and off to bed we went. As she was settling down I began to neck heavily. At one point she stopped & said "what are we doing" I told her I was necking and I would not do anything that she did not want me to. (This is where I found out about her friends saying NO to sex and I explained my opinion) We continued and eventually did the deed.
The point is that I was in charge the whole time and I enjoyed it. I know it frightened her some but she did enjoy it. I think what scared her is this is how I use to be over 20 years ago when she fell in love with me. Now she is having mixed emotions.

This morning she stated it was a great day and wonderful evening. 
Her walls were WAY UP and she asked me to not do what I did as far as surprising her with dates too much. It is too soon for her.
I know she is dealing with her emotions. I do not want to scare her away, but it did feel good to be in charge again.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> I hate when that happens.
> 
> It's gotten so bad lately I'm actually fearful of stepping foot inside the supermarket.


:iagree: I was grabbing some steaks and she leaned right into me. to get her meat. At least I got smile and an apology. I don't think she saw my family only a few feet away.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> it did feel good to be in charge again.


Yes you are in charge. You have her exactly where she wants you.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Her walls were WAY UP and she asked me to not do what I did as far as surprising her with dates too much. That's fine tell her you are going "grocery shopping" that will make her wonder. show her you have options.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Another book you need to read is NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY. I don't know how many times a fellow has come here ready to take all the blame and it turns out to be the opposite. This thread has that written all over it. Do not bother denying this until you have read the book. You can get it free on line.
> 
> https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf
> 
> As far as giving up on you even though you really don't get what is going on, most of us see the same train heading your way we have seen before over and over. There is usually a wreck but occasionally we get to jerk someone off the tracks.


That was the first book I read. Just about finished with MMSP. I will read both of these books several more times before it is over. I sure wish I had seen these books even 2 years ago. I would not be in this mess. Of course I may not have realized my problems too and just blew them off like I did my wife. Sometimes we can be so hard-headed


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

noas55 said:


> That was the first book I read. Just about finished with MMSP. I will read both of these books several more times before it is over. I sure wish I had seen these books even 2 years ago. I would not be in this mess. Of course I may not have realized my problems too and just blew them off like I did my wife. Sometimes we can be so hard-headed


I am glad you said "we".

Because she is as hardheaded as you were.

She needs to stop listening to the man hater cheerleaders she thinks are her friends.

And you need to remember they are enemies of your marriage.

Keep up the positive attitude.

Because if your wife does not wakeup, some woman is going to love Noas55 version 2.0.

Never be afraid to let your wife see that other women find you attractive.

It will increase her desire for you.

Keep us posted on the journey and be positive about moving out because you have no other choice so put your best foot forward....

HM


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## coachman (Jan 31, 2012)

lenzi said:


> Yes you are in charge. You have her exactly where she wants you.


You still aren't getting it Noas. I'll be unsubscribing from this thread.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> I am glad you said "we".
> 
> Because she is as hardheaded as you were.
> 
> ...


The posts will keep coming.
I hope others will learn from my mistakes and successes, no matter how this turns out. 
Ultimate goal: R, of course within the year
2nd Best goal: Permanent Separation Marriage..Maybe she cant live with me, but we are still married in all aspects and see each other most days
I do pray if this ends we can at least be good friends for our sakes as well as my boys.

I really do not believe my Lord brought us together for 24 years to end this way. I believe we are going through this to make us both better for each other so we can enjoy our marriage after we renew our vows. We deserve a better marriage than we gave each other. I am ready to give my all to make this a reality


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

coachman said:


> You still aren't getting it Noas. I'll be unsubscribing from this thread.


Okay. I have no idea why this statement was made. If I am not getting something....What am I missing?
Sorry if I am not ALL KNOWING as you are. 
Maybe its because I am trying to handle things the best I can for MY situation until I get moved out.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

Your doing fine take what you like use it and leave the rest. This is not a how to forum. LOL


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Noas, I think you are doing a good job putting your relationship in order....

I do not subscribe to a lot of the Alpha male BS....

Each person and each relationship is different. All women may want an alpha male, but the level of alpha each woman finds attractive varies greatly.....

I am a very low key person, but my wife often finds me to be more alpha than she wants.....

Your wife has some extremely toxic friends.......It dosn't take much girl talk about what pr!cks all men are, to start building real resentment.....Women seem to absorb and retain resentment like a sponge........

It sounds like you screwed the pooch early in your marriage, and have a lot of catching up to do......Don't we all....Every husband falls short of the expectations their wife has of them....So do wives...The important thing is willingness to change........

The surprise dinner was dead on, and don't think having sex with her is a bad thing......

She seems to love it when you take charge, show her more of it.....If you need a confidence booster, have your DR. prescribe some viagra, cialis, whatever....You don't need a misfire at this point.......

Another good tactic is to drop off the radar for a couple of days.......You can just hide out in your apartment, but let her think you were spreading your new "single" wings a bit, and took a nice resort weekend......Don't push her too far, but let her know being by yourself might not be as bad as you thought it would be....Alls fair.....

Find some reasons to be alone with her, and not press for sex...show her you aren't just in it for a quick lay....but don't turn it down if offered....If she initiates, act like it was the furthest thing from your mind, but allow yourself to be seduced....Make her work for it.......

At this point, she has been hurt and has a lot of resentment built up, and she is not thinking clearly enough to make good decisions....Make sure your every contact with her makes R look like the right one...

good luck
the woodchuck


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Woodchuck said:


> Noas, I think you are doing a good job putting your relationship in order....
> 
> I do not subscribe to a lot of the Alpha male BS....
> 
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Weds afternoon: Came home on split shift and fixed supper for W while she slept. When she awaken, we watched one of our shows, ate Chili and relaxed the 3 hours before we both headed to work.
Part of discussions: I told her at times I did not know if I should talk to her as friend or wife. She said she had same issues at times. I told her we have always been friends, but we are still married and trying to repair ourselves so we should stay talking and thinking as husband and wife. She agreed.
I take this as possible progress

W is battling allergies, on verge of cold/bronchitis. I made some chicken and rice soup and just took it to her job. She had taken some leftovers from home, but was VERY GRATEFUL for me bringing the soup. She actually took me to the waiting room to "thank me" with a few minutes of chat, some hugs and a kiss on the cheek. ( Love my nurse!) She walked me back to the elevators where she allowed me to hug and peck her cheek in public. All smile and she did seem genuinely happy to see me. 
I told her no drinking tonight for I knew I was doing this. Also reassured her I was not bribing her to see me so I would not drink (in future). 
She even said I could drive us an hour to a place to eat tomorrow if I have time.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Sounds like she's very happy to give you instructions and permissions.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Sounds like she's very happy to give you instructions and permissions.


I can see how you may think that. Here is where I kind of differ from that thought. It seems for a good long while, years possibly, NICE GUY was more concerned about what she thought, what she wanted to do so much that I gave up all the dominant side. 
Come to last month: She was tired of it and wanted to be done with co-dependent. She wanted t osee if she could survive on her own (independent)
Today: She is little by little giving up something she has had control of for a while. I do not want to control her, I just want to show that I can take charge like before. When those walls are down she is willing to go along with me being in charge. Walls go up/friends chat in her ear....permissions and instructions come out. 

I am praying that as I change for the better, & the space I give her, she will let those walls down more. If she does I do feel she will come around to loving me again. It's her getting over the past & fears that will be the hardest.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

noas55 said:


> She walked me back to the elevators where she allowed me to hug and peck her cheek in public.



DISLIKE

You are allowing her complete control. 

Communicating on her terms.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

GutPunch said:


> DISLIKE
> 
> You are allowing her complete control.
> 
> Communicating on her terms.


:iagree::iagree:


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

If you let her dictate everything your sex rank with her will be in the toilet. It's just what happens.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> She walked me back to the elevators where she allowed me to hug and peck her cheek in public.





noas55 said:


> She even said I could drive us an hour to a place to eat tomorrow if I have time.


She makes the rules, and you follow them, yet you believe that you are "in charge". Alrighty then. Look man at least admit that you are bending over backwards to "prove" to her that you are this new changed guy who will do whatever she wants, while at the same time trying in vain to maintain some sort of semblence of control. It's a really tough line to walk and it's a heck of a way to live. 



noas55 said:


> 2nd Best goal: Permanent Separation Marriage..Maybe she cant live with me, but we are still married in all aspects and see each other most days


Your second best goal is to stay married to a woman who you don't even live with because she doesn't want you in her home?

Why?


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## Iver (Mar 8, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Your second best goal is to stay married to a woman who you don't even live with because she doesn't want you in her home?
> 
> Why?


How would you feel if one of your children was in this situation? Would you be OK with them living this kind of half-life?

Not really married but not single and able to pursue new relations? Essentially the worst of both worlds?

I don't think you'd find that acceptable for them. You should extend the same consideration you'd give them to yourself.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Originally Posted by noas55 View Post

She walked me back to the elevators where she allowed me to hug and peck her cheek in public.



GutPunch said:


> DISLIKE
> 
> You are allowing her complete control.
> 
> Communicating on her terms.


Obviously you guys do not know the code of ethics in major hospitals. What my wife allowed me to do at the elevators could have cost her job or at the very least a write-up. She RISKED this for me. This has never happened in the 7 years she has been working there.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

tom67 said:


> If you let her dictate everything your sex rank with her will be in the toilet. It's just what happens.


I do agree with what you are saying, but she is not dictating everything.

I push for stuff and she gives. There are times she doesn't. Some I let her have for now to keep up the communication and get the walls down. There are several things she said no too and I am already allowed. Constant negotiations and communications


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> She makes the rules, and you follow them, yet you believe that you are "in charge". Alrighty then. Look man at least admit that you are bending over backwards to "prove" to her that you are this new changed guy who will do whatever she wants, while at the same time trying in vain to maintain some sort of semblence of control. It's a really tough line to walk and it's a heck of a way to live.
> 
> Your second best goal is to stay married to a woman who you don't even live with because she doesn't want you in her home?
> 
> Why?


Her allowing me to drive her for dinner is a date in her terms. This was not allowed even a week ago. Is she allowing me? yes, but I am dictating pace and pushing the boundaries for recovery. This she never expected therefore I am in control of that. There are more allowances from her than I ever expected at this point.

2nd best goal is not what I want, but I know several marriages fall to the style after separations for a couple of years until the spouse can learn to trust the other spouse enough. They R completely up to the point of move in, but they just cant get past that part. Both parties continue the marriage just with 2 homes. The spouses basically live in one home most of the time, but if the wayward spouse gets antsy the other spouse goes home for a few days. My parents did this for nearly a year after they R. My dad an affair and my mother could never fully R. 
I know several older couples who have done this as well. It truly is an older remedy from the 50's thru the 70's. I look at it as the final stage of R if it is what makes my W learn to trust I have FULLY and COMPLETELY changed.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

I got my wedding ring today. My W placed it on my finger. First jewelry in over 22 years. We both got emotional. She did say it was important for her as well.
She no longer is telling people we are separated and she has doubts of R. Now it is "location separated" but we are working on R

Tried some MMSP on her tonight. She did a Test on me and I said NO... Wish you could have seen her face. It never got done!  She never got mad either


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

Okay I am going to go against the grain and say you are doing GREAT. Good progress you know her better than we do and I think you are on the right track why change something if you are getting results doing what you are doing? Keep it up and although I may not post much it does not mean I am not watching and hoping for you. :smthumbup:


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Transforming isn't easy noas. I'm sure you read a lot that resonated with you in MMSL and NMMNG and maybe some that doesn't apply at all. You'll catch yourself falling into old habits that you know aren't good but keep working at it. It does seem like you're trying understand how to regain control of your life.

Is this leading toward reconciliation? Eh. we don't know yet but you keep working at it and you're odds improve greatly. Your long term well being especially is tied to your self worth. How you respond to adversity on a daily basis is the tale tale sign of if you've changed and become a stronger better man or not. Of course "fake it til you make it" is better than not trying at all. It's an outward belief that you have a high price tag that everything else builds upon. It's what you project every day and it's what makes people (and spouses) want to know you.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Both parties continue the marriage just with 2 homes. The spouses basically live in one home most of the time, but if the wayward spouse gets antsy the other spouse goes home for a few days.


Why does the wayward spouse get to call the shots?

They cheated, and if they're feeling "ansy" the betrayed spouse gets out of their way for a few days?

Seems rather unfair on so many levels.

To me, it would seem that the spouse who strayed, who lied, who deceived, who broke the marital vows, should be bending over backwards to make things right with the spouse that did not cheat, rather than the other way around.

Anyway glad to hear things are working out for you one way or another.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

lenzi said:


> Why does the wayward spouse get to call the shots?


Because the BS allows it.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

She was cheating ? I must have my threads mixed up.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> She was cheating ? I must have my threads mixed up.


I do not believe that Noas ever said his wife was cheating.....


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

I understand that most people suspected an affair. The EA with her BFF has even ended. My W has spent more of her free time with me over these past 5 weeks than she had in 6 MONTHS.

My wife never cheated. No evidence of any sort has been found. The separation is due to her not hitting me with a frying pan a little since I did not notice, pick up or listen to her tell-tale signs and words. I neglected her in so many ways it simply turned her off to me. 
We failed each other, but we are striving to reconnect and rebuild our marriage. I must conquer her walls so her doubts will go away. After that she will fall back in love with me. It is there.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Why does the wayward spouse get to call the shots?
> 
> They cheated, and if they're feeling "ansy" the betrayed spouse gets out of their way for a few days?
> 
> ...


The theory on this type of separation (if we go to it later) is that the scared spouse is allowed the control so they feel safe while working out their issues. They get this control and in exchange the other spouse knows they will see the scared spouse more and the stress is off therefore walls can be down for natural healing


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## r0r0bin (Jul 13, 2013)

She is lucky to have, but you the unlucky guy in this case.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

r0r0bin said:


> She is lucky to have, but you the unlucky guy in this case.


I do not understand your cryptic message. I figure it is this way since you feel I am doing something wrong.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Got more stuff for my move including Queen size bed. That is hard looking at how large the bed is for one person.
Relations have been good. More positive words, even with her friends. She told her mother WE are trying to work it out. It will take time. Her mother has never liked me; like most mother in laws :scratchhead:
W is telling me most of her friends have notice incredible changes and they are supporting us getting back together as well.

Her BFF is actually telling her I am trying and she now supports us getting back together as well. My wife discussed my ED issue with her (BFF is nurse in DX office) They are getting me some Viagra to try out when W is ready for more sex :smthumbup: 

We actually discussed renewing vows and our honeymoon (we never had one...only 3 real vacations in 25 years) when we get through this separation.

MAPS in early stage, but the Sex Rank seems to work. 
I have lost 43 pounds in 3 months. I have lost 5 inches from waist. I am now 242 lbs at 5'7". She asked me this morning to buy her a new sexy swimsuit for when WE go swimming. I said I would only if I get to see her in it at the lake this simmer. She agreed. (this was not going to happen 2 weeks ago) She wants to start walking and spending time at the track with me when I move out (W is 5'10" 170 lbs) More time for talking and being social.

She has always told me I must call before coming over. Talking about that today she did say she still wanted that, at least in the beginning. She feels she will allow more visits than we first thought 

The doubts are all about trust now. I know I may never get that trust fully back, but this man is doing all he can. She agrees she PROBABLY is still IN LOVE with me, but her walls are too high and want let her feel that love for now.

Tons of smiles and good laughs. Good amounts of friendly teasing/flirting. Even talks on doing more stuff together after I move.

I can see those walls coming down daily. I am afraid that when I move, there will be set backs due simply from the space & freedom. It is what she has asked for and needs to experience. I know she loves me, but I lost her trust, & respect. It will take time to prove myself. My new changes in myself will get me through that part.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

5 foot 7 inches - 285?

If this momentum were as positive as you say, why in the world are you moving?

To each his own.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> 5 foot 7 inches - 285?
> 
> If this momentum were as positive as you say, why in the world are you moving?
> 
> To each his own.


Yes I was a damn blimp. Sometimes a person can put themselves in denial on how bad they look or how out of shape. 5 years ago I hit 315 lbs. While in the military you learn to eat heavy and fast. When you leave, you are not deprogrammed from it therefore you pack on the weight QUICKLY. Even as fat as I got, I still had stamina to outperform young kids when working 12-14 hour shifts.

The W still wants to see what life is like without answering to someone. She may like it for a bit, but I am hoping the lonely cold nights in bed will help my part. I also am hoping that when she is responsible for all the stuff I did...it will wake her up to just how much stress I put upon myself to make her life easier.

There is still 10 days to 2 weeks before I actually move out. I am praying God will work on her heart enough for her to see how ridiculous she is being. Of course God may need me to be out of the way so she can figure out whatever it is that she needs. I am just doing what I can, giving her the attention I neglected all this time, showing her how much I love her in different ways, & praying for God to work on her head and heart.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Monday was a great day with some bumps.
Several doctor appointments and a rainy day kept us close together all day. While talking about packing stuff up for me my W actually used the term "when you come home" No doubts, no stammer, no ifs. It shocked me so i did not reply. She asked if I heard her. I said yes and she smiled. Her walls were all the way down and she was in a great mood. It was nice to hear her.
The doubts of trusting me to not revert back to OLD me is the big hang up it seems.
Read THE 5 LANGUAGES OF LOVE by Gary Chapman. She is reading it now. I told her my main love language and the 2 others that are high on my list and she took to the physical contact/love quickly. 
I cant wait to confirm my thoughts on what her love language is/are.
Spent 2 hours caressing her body last night as we laid on the couch. Yes I wanted some sex, but never expected any. She surprised me on that one by never mentioning. No real problems again! Thank God!

Today was harder. Another migraine for her so I held her and pampered her. Great talks again.
New analogy: I see our relationship as SUNNY (not true I see it as sunny when he walls are down. I can see the improvement)
6 weeks ago; We are stormy and rainy....For her today: PARTLY CLOUDY, not overcast, but sun is shining through the clouds in numerous areas. The sun is hope and R. 
The independence that she will gain when I move out it seems is more for her proving to herself she can get by on her own and not so much as wanting me out of her life. She is hoping I will see that she can do it on her own and it will help me release some of the CONTROL ISSUES I had. I can understand that and agree. She even admitted that she know she may like the FREEDOM but knows I can still move back if she does.
The doubts are making her not be IN LOVE, but she does care/love me.
Hard week ahead due to both work schedules, and my preparing to move. Check this out:
I pay for apt on the 22nd. She wants me to let her help move boxes and get set up during that week then have the big stuff taken on the 29th and I can officially stay at new apt on the 30th. A whole extra week at home with my cats, son, and my wife. This is her suggestion.
Kinda nice but hard as well. More time with her and more nights to sleep beside her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If she means "when" you come home, why are you leaving?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

In her mind she is needing a break from me so she can see if she can "do it" alone for a while. This is a classic mid-life crisis scenario. She went from having parents to having spouse and then kids. She wants to experience life alone so to speak. 
The trust and so called not in love issues stem from the neglect.
Things are better. I do not want to leave, but it is obvious she would become a Runaway Wife if i stayed. I am trying to help her by working with her. Her fears of losing me are high as I make my changes of improvement. My apt lease is for a year, but I must give 90 day notice if I move. She knows this. We will still be seeing each other frequently for visits, dates, sex, and short 5 mins drop bys. She expects to talk and text daily or every other day. She has even stated she knows she might want me home sooner than later. 

Its an unusual situation but we have never had a typical marriage.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

noas55 said:


> In her mind she is needing a break from me so she can see if she can "do it" alone for a while. This is a classic mid-life crisis scenario. She went from having parents to having spouse and then kids. She wants to experience life alone so to speak.
> The trust and so called not in love issues stem from the neglect.
> Things are better. I do not want to leave, but it is obvious she would become a Runaway Wife if i stayed. I am trying to help her by working with her. Her fears of losing me are high as I make my changes of improvement. My apt lease is for a year, but I must give 90 day notice if I move. She knows this. We will still be seeing each other frequently for visits, dates, sex, and short 5 mins drop bys. She expects to talk and text daily or every other day. She has even stated she knows she might want me home sooner than later.
> 
> Its an unusual situation but we have never had a typical marriage.


If you tired of being married to her or want to let her sow soom oats then you're doing the right thing. Otherwise stay in the house and let her run away if she chooses. You're making this so convenient.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> If you tired of being married to her or want to let her sow soom oats then you're doing the right thing. Otherwise stay in the house and let her run away if she chooses. You're making this so convenient.


I do understand what you are saying and would think the same way if there had been affairs, abuse, and such, but I disagree for various reasons.
1. She loses not only me, but the boys forever if she cheats or ends relationship to soon
2. We have made great strides and improvements in communications, physical touches, sex life, and compassion. 
3. If she wanted to walk, she could have. This is another reason I feel she is wanting to work things out.
4. These past 6 weeks, she has gone out 4 times to her friends places. She has cut back on her texting, calls & outside activity. She is giving us attention and enjoying the time we are spending together
5. I also know if she decides to leave me after I move out....I will hurt real bad for a while, but I am a better & improved man and will make the next wife one happy lady. She knows this. It eats her up and bugs her. These she expresses at least weekly.
6. There is more positive talk than negative from her as far as R.
7. I do believe that part of separation is me proving to her that she can TRUST me. 5 years ago we had a bad run. She wanted me to leave. I said I would, but never did due to an actual communication error. I thought we were fine and had worked things out. She went to her normal "not say anything to avoid fight" routine and here we are 5 years later because she never said anything. This has been brought up during trust issue talks.

If she doesn't fall in love again and invite me home, we go to long w/o seeing each other, she cuts off sex, sees other guys, etc...I will leave because I have told her this is my hard lines. She believes me because she knows I am always honest with my words


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> 1. She loses not only me, but the boys forever if she cheats or ends relationship to soon


Completely untrue.

Odds are- if you divorce, she'll get primary custody and you'll get visitation.

Edited to add.. you're children graduated (High School?)

If so they can visit any parent at any time and for all practical purposes, it's their decision who to live with.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Completely untrue.
> 
> Odds are- if you divorce, she'll get primary custody and you'll get visitation.
> 
> ...


The boys are adults 19 & 21. They have told her they will turn their backs on her if she breaks the hard lines that she has agreed to. They are upset with her, but are dealing with it better due to my intervention


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Good day today. Saw each other for about 3 hours. She slept in my arms for an hour this morning. Bad dreams had her calling my name and reaching out for me. Hate seeing her like that, but it was nice to know she still needs/wants me at least in her dreams. She has done this a few times. never recalls her dreams (she says)

Came home for lunch and fixed us a good meal. Gave her a rose which has become a regular weekly thing these past 6 weeks. Watched one of our shows and laid on the couch together.
More young love stuff, coy replies, and teasing kisses from her.

She is now reading the book I just finished 5 LANGUAGES OF LOVE. I think it has really helped us out. I told her I was going to win her back. She smiled and said "maybe" and then said "I should say probably"
Both sons think she is falling in love/back in love now but is afraid to show it. They also think she is going through with the separation so we can say we did it (remember I did not leave 5 years ago due to miscommunication and we never fixed the real problems) & she can still get a taste of independence knowing I am there if needed.
I honestly want her to succeed. Just not push me away. If this is what she needs to find herself again and be happy with herself, I will do it.

She even wants me to keep some clothes at home so when I visit on split shift days, I can shower and be relaxed while we are together.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Good day. Saw each other for 2 hours. More teasing as she says sex only once every 2 months. She is telling me her friends are shocked that we are doing so well after 6 weeks. Many are telling her to quit talking to me, no sex, and such. She tells them we are working on the issues.  (No more TRYING to work on...) She told me today she does want me to come home if she can get over the trust issues. I have not heard the NOT IN LOVE talk in a few days. I know she is cautious so I am sure she will hold all that back.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I can't see the W smiling, playing, flirting, and all the other stuff if she was not falling in love again. It seriously is like chasing a girl in high school. Something I am out of practice with


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Then start practicing.

A lot.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> The boys are adults 19 & 21. They have told her they will turn their backs on her if she breaks the hard lines that she has agreed to. They are upset with her, but are dealing with it better due to my intervention


Yes they said that but she's still their mother and people don't always mean everything they say. Do not count on them turning their backs on her if she doesn't follow whatever "hard lines" she has agreed to (whatever that is, I don't see her agreeing to anything other than you moving out), and besides, you don't want to see the relationship between your wife and your sons severed no matter what happens between the two of you. It's not good for your children, and you want what's best for them, don't you?



noas55 said:


> she says sex only once every 2 months.


You're allowed to have sex once every 2 months?

Not sure I follow her train of thought there. What does she hope to gain with that sort of limitation?

Well at any rate, if you think positively, that's going to be one heck of an orgasm.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Lenzi: The boys are serious on their hard lines as well. Our religious beliefs are actually helping our cause here. I do not want the boys to hate their mother. It is strange at times because I am defending her to them so they want hate her.

The "sex 2 times a month" is part of her teasing game she is playing. I am sure of that because of her smiles. It went from twice a year to 3 times to 4 times.. now 6 times, all within 3 weeks. At first, I was totally cut off, but we have been doing so well in and out of bedroom I guess she is enjoying it too. I really think she is leaning to twice a month (min) to twice a week (max) She likes to play coy with me at times.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Saw wife for 30 mins before work. 72 hours of nursing this week and beginning of cramp season had her emotions strung out. Had a little tiff over S18 turning a/c down to low. She wants to make him pay. I said this 2 years ago on oldest son and she got mad. Of course this is different......
She said some things that hurt. She saw my facial reaction She began to cry because she knew she hurt me and she did not mean too. Stress, fatigue, menstrual, and all...she still cares. Soon after that she was happy and holding my hand.

More and more people that know us are saying they feel she will ask me home within months. I don't know, but I sure pray they are right.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Well it's all about what you will put up with in my opinion make yourself a little scarce at times don't be so available you make it too easy for her. Just my opinion.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Well it's all about what you will put up with in my opinion make yourself a little scarce at times don't be so available you make it too easy for her. Just my opinion.


Remember Tom67, I am still home for the next 4-10 days. I am sure we will still see each other quite frequently though after I move. Probably not daily or as long of visits UNLESS she wants them. She still is giving me some mixed signals there.
The separation is more about her proving she can do it on her own without me than anything else. I have a medical condition and I am 48. Docs stated I would die before 35 back when I was 19 years old. I have outlived both doctors and never taken their medicine for the illness :smthumbup:

People think this is just her way of proving to both of us that she can make it. That is cool and all, but not the way I would have gone about it. I guess we will all know in about 2 weeks what is REALLY bouncing around her head on this matter


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Don't even get me started on big pharma, take care.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Some good and bad moments over past few days. Finished up long talks about separation with how much seeing each other we expected. This one was weird. Wife asked me what I wanted. I told her it was not a fair question for I wanted to see her as much as possible. She smiled and asked how much? One date a week (for bonding)with 1-2 multi hour visits (for reconnecting) also per week. She said that sounded great with a big smile. She then added I could come by on splits and visit at times if I called ahead & she was doing nothing. If you have followed thread for last 8 weeks you know she was saying maybe 2 visits a week, no dates for 3-6 months at the beginning.
We took the love language test. her big LL is acts of service which I do more out of love anyway. She finally admitted that she loved all the things I did for her and she was going to miss them. After more talking (beginning) not sure on me having keys to house, car, and such. mowing grass, doing even little things. (NOW) I will have keys and can pretty much do as I want on helping because she has realized that was one of the things she loves about me.
Doubts are still there for her, but now fear is setting in at times because she FEELS things, and likes me more now than 6 weeks ago. She loves the changes in me as well. 
She is afraid of hurting me later down the raod if she decideds she cant love me. She did hurt me the other day, accidentally, and she cried because she does not want to hurt me anymore.
I told her we will always be friends, BUT I WANT MORE than that from her. She said she understood


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> She smiled and asked how much? One date a week (for bonding)with 1-2 multi hour visits (for reconnecting) also per week. She said that sounded great with a big smile.


Sounds so.. restrictive.

I'm picturing you opening the door, walking into the living room, sitting down, and she says "Hi" as she turns over the salt timer and places it on the coffee table.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I don't think telling her you will always be friends is helping the situation. If you find she has thrown you out and found om that will kill the friendship. It just gives her another reason for dumping you.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> I don't think telling her you will always be friends is helping the situation. If you find she has thrown you out and found om that will kill the friendship. It just gives her another reason for dumping you.


I agree Chap.

That is a very valid point. If she loses love for him and moves on will she be BFF's with his new wife?

I highly doubt it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> Some good and bad moments over past few days. Finished up long talks about separation with how much seeing each other we expected. This one was weird. Wife asked me what I wanted. I told her it was not a fair question for I wanted to see her as much as possible. She smiled and asked how much? One date a week (for bonding)with 1-2 multi hour visits (for reconnecting) also per week. She said that sounded great with a big smile. She then added I could come by on splits and visit at times if I called ahead & she was doing nothing. If you have followed thread for last 8 weeks you know she was saying maybe 2 visits a week, no dates for 3-6 months at the beginning.
> We took the love language test. her big LL is acts of service which I do more out of love anyway. She finally admitted that she loved all the things I did for her and she was going to miss them. After more talking (beginning) not sure on me having keys to house, car, and such. mowing grass, doing even little things. (NOW) I will have keys and can pretty much do as I want on helping because she has realized that was one of the things she loves about me.
> Doubts are still there for her, but now fear is setting in at times because she FEELS things, and likes me more now than 6 weeks ago. She loves the changes in me as well.
> She is afraid of hurting me later down the raod if she decideds she cant love me. She did hurt me the other day, accidentally, and she cried because she does not want to hurt me anymore.
> I told her we will always be friends, BUT I WANT MORE than that from her. She said she understood


So, she has all the power to decide the future.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Sounds so.. restrictive.
> 
> I'm picturing you opening the door, walking into the living room, sitting down, and she says "Hi" as she turns over the salt timer and places it on the coffee table.


LO. Typing it out can look different from what I meant. 

I set the times that I stated, not her. I told her I did not want her to think I was going to be there every night or even all night or expect it. She actually has told me and others I will be staying the night in bed with her on many occasions. 
The positive is that she wants to see me more than she was originally talking about 7 weeks ago.

Please remember she is a nurse working 7p-7a 3-5 days a week. I work afternoon and evening shifts. This is why I offered the times like I did. Some days will be our normal (pre-separation) 30 min visits before she leaves for work. Other days I can see her after she wakes up & I get off work (evening times until our bedtime around midnight-2a)


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> I don't think telling her you will always be friends is helping the situation. If you find she has thrown you out and found om that will kill the friendship. It just gives her another reason for dumping you.


No matter what she is my children' mother plus 25 years of history together makes it impossible to dislike my wife. I would always be there for her. It would kill me if I lost her to another man, but I would not hate her.

She knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that I want more than friendship. Anything less than marriage will cause me to walk away and start a new life w/o her. This scares her to death. She knows she is 42 and there is a good chance she will be single.

Here again she is showing MAJOR positive signs of affection towards me and we are exclusive. Trust is the issue and she knows that is even being rebuilt now.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> So, she has all the power to decide the future.


Not exactly. She has the power that I granted as she attempts to fix her desire to experience life on her own. 
Most women understand this. Going from parents to marriage to raising children...this is what triggers many mid-life crisis with women. No experience to see that they can survive w/o someone helping them. Men do it almost always at some point in their life.

She finds out she can do it. It gives them a sense of accomplishment, add to their pride and self-worth. If they don't succeed then it can break them to the point it causes dependency. This is why I am willing to help her succeed. I have loved the woman for 25 years and my vows state that I would do all I can to not only see her happy, but help her fulfill her dreams.

If things do not improve or go bad, I will walk away. I would hate to do that, but I know I can if I need to for my happiness. That is part of my rebuilding. 

As bad as I hate this situation....We are learning we can survive w/o each other and in turn we learn to live together w/o co-dependancy of each other.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> Not exactly. She has the power that I granted as she attempts to fix her desire to experience life on her own.
> Most women understand this.


Most people think cake eating is fun.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

BTW..Yesterday we went to the bank where some friends saw us. They were shocked to see us together and as they put it, acting like we were in love again with flirting, laughing, and smiles. Basically acting like high school again. People see us together they wonder why I am still moving out.
About 40 mins later at home I caught a mistake on the budget that would have hurt her badly financially. 
I pointed it out and allowed her to make corrections.
She came to me and held my face...."I Love You" She kissed me then stopped in shock. She quickly added, " For caring so much." She was shocked. Walls went up and she teared up.
She was headed for the door when I grabbed her and calmed her down. I told her I understood and no harm was done. Later she said she was literally going to leave the house and be gone a few hours. She was so terrified.

I really then and now do believe all her walls had come down and her true feelings came out. 

Even today she is crampy and still giving me deep passionate kisses and then sliding into her coy, shy, teasing small kisses. Lots of hand squeezes and such as well. In the past... this stuff ended MANY YEARS AGO


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Not exactly. She has the power that I granted as she attempts to fix her desire to experience life on her own.


You didn't grant her anything. She's got one foot out the door and you're grabbing her and holding on because you're desperate to keep her, even though it means doing everything her way.



noas55 said:


> This is why I am willing to help her succeed. I have loved the woman for 25 years and my vows state that I would do all I can to not only see her happy, but help her fulfill her dreams.


You're doing it because the alternative is that she's going to dump you and walk away and you're hoping she'll stay with you if you give her everything she wants. 



noas55 said:


> If things do not improve or go bad, I will walk away. I would hate to do that, but I know I can if I need to for my happiness.


Right. If things go bad, you'll walk away. From an empty house? She'll be gone long before you decide to jump ship.

Look, you can rationalize this any way you want, you can deny the truth to yourself but the fact is, she's the dumper, you're the dumpee, and you've got no say in what will ultimately happen and again, I don't think you're handling things the best possible way, which would be to get independent, go live your own life, and stop walking on eggshells around her and "granting her all the power'. 

Time to man-UP. Or not. But as part of your "rebuilding" try being more honest with yourself.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Most people think cake eating is fun.


You see it one way, I see it another way. If she gets a little cake on the side, she earned it for a while.
I must regain her trust due to all my neglecting I did. If I work with her through her desires to prove she can make it without me (she does not want another man) this will allow her to trust her heart more easily. 
The heart is already healing. "She does not want to hurt me anymore." Quote from last night
That statement is a major one from her. I have paid out my dues to her for all the pain I caused her. (IC) I am seeing


Her fears are of me regressing into my old hateful, resentful, self-centered ways that caused many years of neglect.
I can make all the promises in the world, but actions will speak volumes. Will I regress? No. I am doing all I can to learn about myself and why I did things. I am rebuilding myself entirely. Mentally, physically, emotionally, etc. for myself her, and my boys.
If I need counseling for the rest of my life, so be it. I do not want to be like that man was ever again.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> You didn't grant her anything. She's got one foot out the door and you're grabbing her and holding on because you're desperate to keep her, even though it means doing everything her way.
> *Actually I look at it as I decided to try to work things out with her. I could have told her to go F**& herself and walk away like a whole lot of people would/have done. I chose not to. I chose to stay, talk, and try to work things out in as civilized, mature way I could have. I admitted my faults as well as she has. We are closer together than in MANY YEARS. If I had not granted her this, we would be bitter enemies most likely.*
> 
> 
> ...


Man Up? To me I have proven to be a man by trying to understand her needs and work out my marriage problems. I fought to keep my wife by my side so we could communicate & I could give her the attention she craved for so long while being neglected by me.
Honesty? I have admitted all my guilt to her, this board, my kids, and MYSELF. I know where I stand. I know I could lose the only woman I have ever loved if I handle this wrong. There never is one way to fix a problem. I have chosen a solution/path that I feel covers what I neglected to give my W for years, the path also proves and allows my W time to see the "new" me. It is her choice to love and want me in her life. I do not own her.
If she decides to leave me down the road...I will cry, be hurt, devastated, etc...but I will then regroup and find myself another woman who will love me and that I can love.
My W will fall to "friend" ranking and I can at least hold my head up and say I did my best.
My W DOES NOT want me with another woman nor wants to be second in my life. (Her words 2 days ago) I do believe her


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Noas

You are taking the road least traveled.

But it is your road.

No matter what happens in the end with your marriage the key is to come out the other side a better man, a healthier man, an independent man and a man that knows how to truly love someone else.

So if you can focus on you while still wanting to rebuild your marriage that is great.

But that will only happen if your wife shares the same goals.

Only you can be the judge of that.

Keep moving forward Noas.

HM


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

noas55 said:


> BTW..Yesterday we went to the bank where some friends saw us. They were shocked to see us together
> She came to me and held my face...."I Love You" She kissed me then stopped in shock. She quickly added, " For caring so much." She was shocked. Walls went up and she teared up.
> She was headed for the door when I grabbed her and calmed her down. I told her I understood and no harm was done. Later she said she was literally going to leave the house and be gone a few hours. She was so terrified.


What you saw was guilt and you know it!!! This whole sitch stinks!!! We all see it....you will too.....soon!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Noas
> 
> You are taking the road least traveled.
> 
> ...


She is either one hell of an actress and she has me, the boys, co-workers, & friends all fooled or she is really trying to work with me on things. Like I have stated before, all the friends and even naysayers are saying her attitude has changed.
No matter what I will continue working towards my personal goals. I will work on marriage as long as I see progress. Too much stalling or backwards movement, I will leave. I can be friends, but I want more. I have too much love and affection to be single.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Tobyboy said:


> What you saw was guilt and you know it!!! This whole sitch stinks!!! We all see it....you will too.....soon!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So what if it is guilt. Maybe she needs to feel guilt and pain to help realize what a selfish person she is being.
Maybe it will blow up in my face. Like I said before, it is a chance I'll take. I have not seen any threads from anyone doing it my way with the results I am getting. She has a whole family, her reputation at work and a lot of friends (church or otherwise) to lose if she is blowing smoke up my ass.
If she is lying to me, my emotions, heart, and feelings will be hurt, crushed, and destroyed for a while, but I am sure there are several ladies who would want a man like me who is faithful, dedicated, hard working, honest, and loving just to say some of my qualities


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Spent some time with W today. Good day overall considering her cramps were bad. Lots of affectionate touches and kisses from her even though she felt bad. 
I finally got a straight answer from her after 7 weeks on why separation is so important for her. Trust issues are there, but they appear to be dying out as her heart is taking over.
Pretty much as I expected and guessed, but with a little more thought in it.
Wants to see if she can do it on her own, w/o me. Not for another man, but to prove to herself she can do it. In the same process she will prove to me I am not needed for her survival. She does not want to lose me and knows I could walk away. 
With this it will allow her to trust me quicker since she will know she can leave if I regress or neglect her in the future. This also shows me I can lose her if I neglect or regress.
I asked her, and she said "pretty much it in a nutshell"
Asked why she just couldn't say it. "Don't know" was the answer.
Came back later and told her I thought she wanted me to figure it out for myself. She said yes I was correct. If she had told me 7 weeks ago, I might not have heard or understood. Since I figured it out, I was listening & understanding.
So now I know why she is wanting the separation even with the vast improvement between us. She does want me to come home probably in 7-12 months once she sees I have not regressed. Some people I have talked to say it could be in 6-9 months. Our 25th anniversary is in 7 months.
To me this is good news since I can understand a little more what is going on in her head.


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## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

I'm sorry you're going through this. Your wife's reasoning doesn't ring true to me. I suspect she isn't being entirely forthright with you. You notice that you put those words in her mouth? Much easier for her than actually giving you some honesty.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BK23 said:


> I'm sorry you're going through this. Your wife's reasoning doesn't ring true to me. I suspect she isn't being entirely forthright with you. You notice that you put those words in her mouth? Much easier for her than actually giving you some honesty.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

I wouldn't go anywhere.


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## Kaci (Mar 11, 2013)

Don't know about wife having an affair, but I think you are her emotional security blanket. You'll be there in case her plans don't work out or she changes her mind. She does love you, you're like 'family'; but that isn't what both of you need.

I think you should separate to save your marriage. Get on with a separate life. After all, this is what she wants. Don't play games, but don't be so available. Don't pick up the phone when she calls, don't fix things around the house, etc. Make it look like you're getting on with your life. If, in the end, you two don't get back together, you will have already been use to your new life thus the pain will be less burning.

If you don't want to file for a divorce, look into separating legally.


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## Kaci (Mar 11, 2013)

Just now read your posts 271 and #290 (don't know how to move it here as a quote). As a woman, this sounds like a lot of 'hooey'. She doesn't want to hurt you. Get out, get on with your life, maybe she'll fall for you again.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

BK23 said:


> I'm sorry you're going through this. Your wife's reasoning doesn't ring true to me. I suspect she isn't being entirely forthright with you. You notice that you put those words in her mouth? Much easier for her than actually giving you some honesty.


Right. She didn't answer your questions, just waited for you to fill in the blanks and she just went ahead and said "yes that's it".

If I was you I wouldn't move anywhere either, unless you know you aren't ever going home.

She's letting you down easily, whether you realize it or not.

As I type this I really hope you will come back in 6-9 months or 9-12 months or whatever it is that she needs for you to "prove yourself" - and tell us everything is going great.

To me it seems she's just nicely getting you out of the way.

But you'll find out soon enough. If you see a sudden shift in her attitude towards the worse, soon after you move out, well then there you have it.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

lenzi said:


> Right. She didn't answer your questions, just waited for you to fill in the blanks and she just went ahead and said "yes that's it".
> 
> If I was you I wouldn't move anywhere either, unless you know you aren't ever going home.
> 
> ...


That's what I was thinking but he wants to go this route. Good luck.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

BK23 said:


> I'm sorry you're going through this. Your wife's reasoning doesn't ring true to me. I suspect she isn't being entirely forthright with you. You notice that you put those words in her mouth? Much easier for her than actually giving you some honesty.


I see what you all are saying on me answering for her. That is absolutely true. Did not see that. Thanks!


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Kaci said:


> Don't know about wife having an affair, but I think you are her emotional security blanket. You'll be there in case her plans don't work out or she changes her mind. She does love you, you're like 'family'; but that isn't what both of you need.
> 
> *Fully agree on emotional blanket. *
> 
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Right. She didn't answer your questions, just waited for you to fill in the blanks and she just went ahead and said "yes that's it".
> * You are correct. I was blinded.*
> 
> If I was you I wouldn't move anywhere either, unless you know you aren't ever going home.
> ...


I told her several times; I want nothing less than marriage. If we fall away I will be a friend but she knows that she will never be close once I find another woman. 25 years with me has proven to her that I don't play that way with a woman's heart or emotions. As stated before she is scared of this and does not want to be less than my #1 lady. I am hoping this helps keep her head clear during the separation.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

So she worked last night. Came in after a bad night, climbed into bed and gave me a huge hug and snuggled close. She then said "Please don't give up on me" I told her I don't want to give up but she must stay committed to our cause. She agreed.

One of her close friends at work told her to watch/listen to Blake Shelton's song MINE WOULD BE YOU. She said you want to go through the whole song and don't stop.


Came home for lunch and we talked about her statement. She went to work and was thinking of how she wished we had another day off together so we could relax and enjoy each other. She was going to text me and tell me she missed me but decided not to out of habit. She had felt this way before over the past several months and just shrugged off the feelings as she prepared to leave me. I told her to call/text me anytime and tell me what she felt. That was part of our problems in the past and helped us get where we are. She agreed. She was afraid I would be mad, but I just told her those little things matter to me and our marriage.
She watched the video and cried. Hell I cried to because it fits me to a T.
We ate and cuddled on couch as we watched one of our shows.
Asked her if she was thinking of allowing me over during splits so we could do what we were doing. "Maybe" was her reply. This is her playful talk and mostly has meant YES. 

Talked on phone prior to her going to work and my coming home from work.. Told her how much I enjoyed the cuddling and missed it over the years. She admitted she missed it too and it was real nice. She hoped we continue doing it. I could tell she had a smile on her face. Even crampy she was smiling today with me.

These little things over the past weeks make me wonder if she was telling me the truth yesterday. About me getting it right and she is now beginning to have doubts on the separation, but feels she needs to go through it to prove she can do it like she said.
So many people who are friends of us who are separated, been through this already and R, and those that divorced... they keep telling me she will probably last 6 months before calling me home. I sure hope so. I would love to at least know I was going home at some time, before my 25th anniversary (Feb 17). Our oldest son gets married on April 15th next year. I think these 2 dates will work in my favor around this period on going home. She is a sentimental person on dates.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Asked her if she was thinking of allowing me over during splits so we could do what we were doing. "Maybe" was her reply. This is her playful talk and mostly has meant YES.


I get that you want to let her call the shots so you don't come across as uncaring and controlling. 

But what do you possibly gain by asking her if she will allow you over during splits? All it does is make you look weak and that's unattractive no matter what history the two of you have.

Why not just refrain from asking her the questions and if you must, then follow her guidance, rules and instructions as she's giving them out. 

Otherwise you're really no better than an abused dog just sort of waiting and wondering when it's going to get smacked again.

Just say NOTHING and roll with it. 

Asking questions is broadcasting your insecurity. 

Just be ok with how things are.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> I get that you want to let her call the shots so you don't come across as uncaring and controlling.
> 
> But what do you possibly gain by asking her if she will allow you over during splits? All it does is make you look weak and that's unattractive no matter what history the two of you have.
> *This question was one that never fully got worked on when discussing times of visits. My split is from 1-4pm. Sometimes she does not wake up until 2ish. 7 weeks ago the answer was a firm NO. Last weekend she was thinking of me just coming over and showering and waiting for her to wake up. Cook if I want or we go grab lunch together. Her playfulness is a good indication that her mind is set for me to come over.*
> ...


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Let me rephrase the question in my post.

What do you gain by asking her NOW about whether you can see her during splits- which won't happen for another week or two?

Why not wait until THEN and, at that time, when you've got a split coming up say "how about we see each other during my next split" rather than asking her about it 2 weeks in advance- which again comes across as you needing some sort of validation and reinforcement from her so you won't feel insecure.

You're trying to strike a balance here. You want to give her control so she can see you're not such an overbearing A$$, and I get it. But at the same time you don't want to come across as some sort of insecure weakling.

When you ask her questions about how she might feel about spending time with you after you move out, you're only hurting yourself, you're not accomplishing anything positive.

Just wait her out. When the time comes, ask her about the present. Don't ask her about how she may feel at some future time. 

There's a big difference.

That's all I'm saying.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Let me rephrase the question in my post.
> 
> What do you gain by asking her NOW about whether you can see her during splits- which won't happen for another week or two?
> 
> ...


I see where you are going with it. I misunderstood the message. That is a good move. Thanks for the help. Never thought of how it would look towards me.


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## Kaci (Mar 11, 2013)

QUOTE: :"So she worked last night. Came in after a bad night, climbed into bed and gave me a huge hug and snuggled close. She then said "Please don't give up on me" I told her I don't want to give up but she must stay committed to our cause. She agreed."



Don't sleep with her anymore. Sleep in another room. Remember, this is what SHE wants. If she misses you later, she can make an effort to woo you back. You should be friends, but somewhat distant. How can she miss you when she can cuddle up with you anytime she's feeling guilty? Actually, I would move out now, stay with a friend until your apt. is ready.

I know you love her and want to preserve your marriage but it's time for 'tough-love', similar to that used on children.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Kaci said:


> QUOTE: :
> Don't sleep with her anymore. Sleep in another room. Remember, this is what SHE wants. If she misses you later, she can make an effort to woo you back. You should be friends, but somewhat distant. How can she miss you when she can cuddle up with you anytime she's feeling guilty? Actually, I would move out now, stay with a friend until your apt. is ready.
> 
> I know you love her and want to preserve your marriage but it's time for 'tough-love', similar to that used on children.


If there was reasons for separation like affairs, violence, or anything else as harsh I would agree with you on tough love. I simply neglected her over the years and she did not want to fight so she kept it inside. She let it tarnish her love for me and lost trust in me to not hurt her emotionally.
We are working on all these things even now. The sleeping & cuddling has brought us closer because I am showing her love which I failed to show her for years. Personally I feel I already did the tough love crap by forcing her to feel unloved. 
She even asked me yesterday if she was selfish for wanting me to cuddle. I said NO because I want it too. At this time we are enjoying the contact and affection we both missed over the years. Might bite me in the ass later, but I feel as long as we are both happier now together than before... how can it be wrong. Heck she is missing me at work which is something she admits she has not done in many years.
As far as her feeling guilty... yes she does, but her cuddling or even having sex is not about guilt, but more about the affection and attention she has desired, but I failed to provide.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Last night for the first time in 4 years... we texted each other for hours while she was working. The texts have been usually 2 or 3 replies and that is it. She even started the conversation which is a first in over a year. 

Bought her a dozen roses today. Made her cry. Never bought a bouquet of flowers before. It shocked her.
Her walls are coming down more and more. Still has her doubts, but not as much. Even feels more comfortable with me and her feelings are slowly changing (Her words)


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Last night for the first time in 4 years... we texted each other for hours while she was working. The texts have been usually 2 or 3 replies and that is it. She even started the conversation which is a first in over a year. 

Bought her a dozen roses today. Made her cry. Never bought a bouquet of flowers before. It shocked her.
Her walls are coming down more and more. Still has her doubts, but not as much. Even feels more comfortable with me and her feelings are slowly changing (Her words)


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Yesterday was fantastic. I had a bad dream and she consoled me. I told her I wanted her to show me how she felt about me before I left for work. I was tired of the cryptic messages and needed to know for sure. he gave me the best of her long passionate kisses. I told her she could lie to herself, but she could not lie to me about her love. She smiled and said "I guess we have always been closer than friends these 8 weeks.  Later she explained that she has tremendous love for me, just her doubts of my regressing and if she can overcome her fears is what is causing her desires for the separation (besides seeing if she can do it) I told her I will not regress, but I understand how actions speak louder than words. So over the next few months as we see each other she can see how the stress affects me. If I have not changed, she can rest assured God has done a good job on me as I continue to rebuild myself with His help. I know He is working on her as well

We had a small date after work. It was great. The whole day was great really. Good talks, and lots of intimate contact. Had sex, but I did have issues (nervous about new stuff), BUT she got some of her 50 Shades desires fulfilled. Actually enjoyed it myself, but it took a little bit to figure out that I was not actually hurting her  She was really glad I wasn't freaked out about it. She likes the new "me" in the bedroom as well. I am sure that has helped feed the intimacy outside of the bedroom. She knows I am still headed to the doctor so the issue does not seem to be a big deal. She is still teasing about sex on every 2 month basis which is good.

This morning was a little tougher on us. less than 2 days till i move out. 360 days until lease is up  I told her I feel like I am in prison counting the days and hoping for parole. We shed tears and she felt bad. She said she feels sometimes like she should leave so I wouldn't hurt. I told her she was being stupid to think this hurt would be more than her leaving just so I didn't hurt. made her promise to not pull that crap later. I did tell her if she did, I would HATE her for it and no friendship would exist.
Just before work, more intimacy and she left me with a great "hot" moment. We both are enjoying and loving each other more than ever.
Came home and she had supper ready for me. She was having to work, but she never cooks on these days. It felt real good. Nice change in her.

These next few months are going to be the tell the truth period for me. She either has been truthful or blowing smoke up my tail. I am scared, but I am glad I have made these changes for myself. I have now lost 47 pounds, down to 238 pounds  I am clear headed for the most part. Not as angry and full of hatred for myself or the world. 
Thank you God. Now all I ask is to heal my wife and I so we can be together again.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Sunday morning: W comes home from work and wakes me up. We lay in bed and chatting a bit while she unwinds from hard shift. 
She tells me she is working some extra shifts this month to help offset our bills, not to interfere with our time. I assure her yes I am concerned but fully understand. She then tells me she has a very positive surprise around Christmas time for me and the whole family. She won't tell me in case it doesn't pan out. Of course I want to think it is me being told I will come home soon (This is a normal MO for how she does big things) I tease her about my thought, she says that isn't it (still typical MO but I doubt she would), but it is kind of a present for all of us......I have not asked for anything for Christmas for over 3 years except for pictures of the family. Never got them and I sure wish I had them for my move. It has been 4 years since family photos were done. I suspect this is the present. This is a great positive moment because just a few weeks ago I asked if I could get a simple pic of us two together. She changed subjects and never answered. I brought it up 3 days ago to same result.
I also found out she has been telling her closest friends and BFF that she has more hope now than any other time (2 months) that we will get back together. Still has those damn doubts, but more major positive news. Her friends keep telling her she could lose me and she will regret it. 
Ended up having morning sex which was a once in 10 year thing before this ordeal ever started. I know that our marriage will be so much happier for both of us than before. I hate going through this ordeal, but if we can get to that new marriage...it will be worth all the pain, tears, and sorrow. 

Thank you God for helping me make the changes I needed for me, my wife, and my family. Please keep working on W changes and her doubts. Keep working in our hearts and souls. Amen!


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Why are you leaving? Stay and work on things. Screw the deposit on the lease. Money isn't important.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noass,

I get that you're trying to fix your situation by doing everything your wife wants even though it goes against what most people think is an effective way to handle this type of situation. It's your life, do as you please, and while I hope it works out for you, I notice that you continue to do things that will only work against you. 

You seem responsive to some of the hard advice I've given you recently so I'm going to give it another shot. 

For a moment, try to put yourself in your wife's shoes. She's "on the fence". Not sure if she wants you back, not sure if she loves you enough to continue the relationship, and it's getting closer to decision time for her. 

Women like guys to be strong and independent, that's how they're wired, nothing's going to change that and I get that you are trying to strike a balance and not come across as too controlling and insensitive because that's what pushed your wife away in the first place, and that's fine. 

However, you continue to do things that come across as weak, needy, clingy, while at the same time you're still being insensitive, manipulative and controlling, and that's just going to turn her off even more, there is nothing at all productive about such actions on your part.



noas55 said:


> I told her she was being stupid to think this hurt would be more than her leaving just so I didn't hurt.


You're trying to show her you've changed, you're not controlling, you're not that same insensitive loser and there you go calling her stupid? WTF are you thinking?



noas55 said:


> made her promise to not pull that crap later. I did tell her if she did, I would HATE her for it and no friendship would exist.


Again, you're being manipulative, forceful, and controlling. "If you don't promise me this, then I will hate you!" I mean, seriously dude, you're bending over backwards trying to appease her and then you call her stupid and tell her that you will hate her if she doesn't make you some sort of silly promise. 



noas55 said:


> Of course I want to think it is me being told I will come home soon (This is a normal MO for how she does big things) I tease her about my thought, she says that isn't it


Put yourself in her shoes. "There he goes again, begging me for some sign that I'm going to change my mind". When you say these things to her, you are no better than a child asking his mommy if there are chocolate chip cookies in the grocery bag. Weak, unattractive, and believe me when I tell you this, on the outside she may be smiling at you but on the inside she's thinking "why the freak won't this guy just be ok with things the way they are and stop pressuring me!?"

Life your own life. Be ok with moving out since you've chosen that path. Stop resisting. Stop pestering her like a child. It's really unattractive.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

angstire said:


> Why are you leaving? Stay and work on things. Screw the deposit on the lease. Money isn't important.


It has nothing to do with money. The time apart is needed so she can see that she will be alright alone. Yes I would be her safety net, but she thinks this will give her the feeling of not being FORCED to be with me if she brings me home. Part of her doubts is that she is battling with not wanting to go down this road again if I come home. These two conflicts are going against each other in her head right now. She knows she needs to bring me home later to finish the trust process and see how I am "at home in normal stress environment". She does not want to have to deal with "someone leaving again" if it fails. 
We will be seeing each other quite frequently and doing things together. We have already talked about future trips together after I come home. Like said before, she is wanting the separation, knows she could lose me, but does want me home. She has to figure out the crap in her head.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Responding to post 312 by Lenzi:
Thanks Lenzi. I do understand what you are saying. Trying to balance things as you stated and it is hard. I see what you are saying and yes I slipped up during that time.
I even apologized to her this morning. I was upset and we were both emotional at the time those comments were made. She said she knew I made a speech mistake when I used the "stupid" in my sentence. She knew I was saying it was a bad thought. She even understands why I got mad about it. She apologized to me as well for not thinking about the thought more.

Yes I was being childish and manipulative. Controlling in a way. Still learning to deal with these issues. I am in process of complete change and we both know this will take a while. The only reason I do support the separation is so God can work on me and I can rebuild myself.
The good news is that my wife does see the massive changes and likes them. 
1) We had some little emotional issues, but no blow ups, or arguments over the last 2 months. MAJOR change in that alone. 
2) I have said no to my job and put her first on some requests. She has done the same as well w/o asking me. PLUS she has asked her friends to not text her when she is with me so we can enjoy the time. NEVER did she do this before. 2 months later and it is still happening. She came to understand how it made me feel.
3) I am more active, concerned about my well-being (lost 48 pounds since April 15th), less hatred more loving to everybody, & clear headed. 
I know my Sex Ranking has improved majorly. This morning's little sex romp... she did not plan that. Not even horny. It happened from just hugging and some kisses got her desires up. She admits that has not happened in a LONG time.

Lenzi I do appreciate your advice, welcome it, but I also thank you for TRYING to understand why I am doing things my way and against normal advice. I do believe I am doing the right thing, but I know I am making some mistakes along the way.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Well in about 2 hours I will have 99% of my stuff in my apt. Wife and I will be spending next 2 days together. After that the FUN begins. Going to be a long road this next year. Lease expires 7/21/14. At 9 months I must begin renewal process if it looks like I am staying, must give leaving notice 6/21/14. Praying I will know I am going home by my anniversary on 2/17/14 (25th anniversary  )
Please keep us in prayers as we try to get to the point of R. I feel we are moving closer. Oldest son talked to her yesterday. He says he is sure we will make it. I am putting my faith in my Lord & God Almighty that we will make it. I can't believe He would have us together this long for it to end now. We both believe this.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

2 days and all moved in with wife and sons help.
Some small emotional times for both of us, but overall it was a good 2 days for both of us.
Had a good evening at the park with W last night.
Some great communication, intimacy, & sex last night. We are relearning what each desires in the bedroom, & life which is pretty wild after 25 years. 

She is finally opening up more about what she wants in our separation and agrees she does want me to remain her husband and lover. She does not want any other man. She was afraid I would be close minded about her sexual desires and fantasies. She is glad she did not walk away and gave us a second chance. 

She has almost told me how she feels about me, but she is afraid of telling me those words because sometimes she begins THINKING about the past and gets scared. She said she will state the words when she becomes confident that she want regress herself in her thinking.

She loves the changes I have made these past 2 months. She knows how hard I have been pushing myself to change for myself, her and the kids. She has finally come to terms with God and is now asking Him to help her with her problems. (Major breakthrough)

She is still uncertain on how long of time frame she is needing to feel at peace. I do understand, but it sucks.
She originally was thinking up to 2 years...one year for me to prove myself and another for her to fix her problems and fully accept me back. She now still thinks this mainly due to fear, but ADMITS she can see possibly 1 year since we are already 2 months into separation and she is now working on herself.
She is believing the changes, but then gets scared and regresses into her old thoughts. 
Bottom line: Great to hear she wants me to remain her husband and she is happy in the bedroom even with my ED issues. A little while longer I can get that fixed too. Very happy she is glad she gave us another chance. Very excited that she is now seeking out help from God. This alone is a huge factor in our family.

It does suck to know it may take a year or longer to finally go home. We are still functioning as a husband and wife team, but with the separate housing location being the difference. All major financial decisions and plans are still be discussed together. Even trips together next year. :smthumbup:

So many major changes have happened these last 2 months while I was home. Thank God we were forced to let me stay home so we could communicate and rediscover each other.

I can only imagine how great I will look, better man I will be, and how proud of myself I will be when this is all over.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

I hope this is real and wish you nothing but the best my friend. If you ever have that gut feeling come back on.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

tom67 said:


> I hope this is real and wish you nothing but the best my friend. If you ever have that gut feeling come back on.


I hate laptops. I deleted part of my opening sentence. I am moved out of home into my apartment. Stayed these last two nights at home while wife is off. Tomorrow will be first night sleeping at apt.
Sorry for any confusion. 
I will be posting regularly here. Once I hear words of R from her, i will start a new thread in that forum.
I hope it is real too. She seems sincere on her feelings


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Spent last night at home last night. W went to see BFF around 6 and expected to be home around 9. BFF & hubby asked her to watch kids while they ran to his garage to get some stuff at 8:30. They finally came back 2 hours later. Wife was upset and told her BFF she was not happy because I was at home waiting for her and had fixed supper. It was our time too. 
In the past i would have been pissed and ranted and yelled. this was MAJOR problem between us before separation.
This time I was calm and reassured her I was not mad at her. I understood situation. She came in, explained and we ate. She was very relieved I was cool about it. Made for a good night. 
I think I passed a good test on how I have changed.

This morning another stressful problem came up as youngest needed $200 loan for his trip tonight. We are strapped due to our move. I told her we could do it and to trust me. I told youngest I was mad about his needs because it was not a necessity and he knew what was going on. I was calm, cool, and collective. 2cd test passed.

Over the weeks, W has begin playing more and more with my new wedding band.
The best moment of the whole 2 months separation happened as I was leaving for work, knowing I would not see my wife for 2-3 days.
She walked me to my car. She said she would miss me. This was not good-bye. 
Then she took her wedding hand into my wedding hand and gripped tight telling me to notice our hands...she said, "We are unified as husband and wife. I want it to stay that way forever." She kissed our hands and said she just needed time to work on herself and let God's Will work on her too.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Good day. I had to go by and see W to discuss work schedules so we can work out our personal schedules.
I texted her to ask if I could drop by. She was glad I was coming by.
I dropped by and she said she thought of me at work but was too busy to contact me (understandable) We ate and talked. She told me she was going to invite me over anyway, but i contacted her first. Dang that was a minor letdown for me. I cant wait for that moment when she invites me.
Though are schedules re tight through August, we hope to see each other frequently.
She got mad when I knocked on door at home. She wants me to use my key if locked. If not, come on in 
Very reassuring day. We ended up being together for 90 mins on my break


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Try to hold off contacting her. Let her invite you next time.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

angstire said:


> Try to hold off contacting her. Let her invite you next time.


Believe me, I will. I was THAT close!! Good news though. I have been telling her she could call me anytime especially in the mornings after work. When I was home she would tell me about her nights (nursing) to help decompress then she would sleep.
This morning she called after a bad night and we talked for about 15 mins about her night. Nothing special said, but it did brighten my morning. She also asked if I was still coming by tonight (do laundry and see her for 30 mins before she goes to work) I confirmed that. It sounded like she was glad.
Long year ahead of us, but I know together we can get through this ordeal and come out in a happier marriage


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Cool, Noas, glad to hear it. Your story seems different than many here. I'l be interested to see how it goes.

Mine seems different too, but in a negative way. No contact from my stbxw. Oh well, I think that makes it much easier on me than guys like ReGroup who deal with lots of drama. Seems like you and W are trying hard and not having drama, so that's pretty cool too.


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## CEL (May 7, 2013)

Nosa I don't post much to your thread mostly because you are doing such a great job. Just keep following your own drummer and watch her actions. Sounds like you are well on your way to having a better marriage. Good luck brother.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

angstire said:


> Cool, Noas, glad to hear it. Your story seems different than many here. I'l be interested to see how it goes.
> 
> Mine seems different too, but in a negative way. No contact from my stbxw. Oh well, I think that makes it much easier on me than guys like ReGroup who deal with lots of drama. Seems like you and W are trying hard and not having drama, so that's pretty cool too.


I am sorry your is leaning negatively. You are correct about the drama cases. I would not want any of that going on. I know I am lucky as heck, I thank God constantly for all He is doing, but also for giving me a strong woman for my wife. No drama as we are both trying to meet each other on this long road and walk down it hand in hand. Praying it leads us back to our marriage.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

CEL said:


> Nosa I don't post much to your thread mostly because you are doing such a great job. Just keep following your own drummer and watch her actions. Sounds like you are well on your way to having a better marriage. Good luck brother.


Thank you CEL. we both are trying to make it work. She loves the idea of me as her husband. I do believe this is a big help.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Another good day and some positives from W.
For years I have been waking up and talking to my W when she gets off work. Help her decompress so she can sleep. Well I have been telling her to call me and she is afraid of waking me. I tell her to forget that and call me. I can sleep afterwards.
Since I moved she has not called me so I was asking God what I had to do to get her to realize how MUCH I needed her to call or text me. I desire it. It would help me get my day started and help her sleep. As I talked to God, she called! God proves Himself to me once more. Thank You Jesus!! Very rough shift for her last night; possibly the worst. We talked about it to help her decompress. She says she may not call every day she works. I told her I wanted it.

Called W around 3:30. She was up, but obviously distracted. Talked briefly and then I said “You are obviously busy so I will say goodbye, see you at 5 while I am on break.
”
She texted about 20 mins later apologizing, just trying to do stuff on limited time. Still it was nice to hear her apologize for her rudeness. I am the DUMPEE and she should be more considerate of my feelings at times. I am giving her everything at MY cost.
Saw her at 4:45 -6. We ate and it was a good visit.
She read AMP’s story on his separation. She really liked it and it has helped us both. Length of separation 3 ½ years is a long time.
We discussed that her original 2 year plan of separation was TOO LONG for me to wait w/o major changes in our relations. She agreed and understands my concept of evaluating us every 3-6 months. I do not see any problems ahead, but who knows? 

Did laundry for both of us, mowed grass, and did other stuff for W so she can relax tomorrow on her only day off. I will see her tomorrow evening. I am excited. I think she will have me stay the night. I do hope so. A pillow does not stop the ache of empty arms


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Noas, I was away for a week (hiking and camping in the mountains with my girlfriend), so when I got back to work today and got a free minute I logged in to see how you're doing. I always relate to guys who have moved out of the house and are trying to save their marriage because that was me once. 

I read through all your updates and I was about to post to the effect of "good job, things are going well, keep on trucking" but after reading the last post, which I have quoted parts of below, I don't feel so positive.



noas55 said:


> Since I moved she has not called me


Be honest with yourself. What do you think that means? You moved out, she hasn't called you at ALL. You are the one constantly reaching out to HER. Not only is that the actions of a clingy, needy, weak man but it also says a lot about where HER mind is at. Regardless of what she SAYS to you.



noas55 said:


> so I was asking God what I had to do to get her to realize how MUCH I needed her to call or text me. I desire it. It would help me get my day started and help her sleep. As I talked to God, she called! God proves Himself to me once more. Thank You Jesus!!


I'm going to touch this subject with extreme caution. I'm an athiest and I think people who believe in God tend to give him too much credit when things seem to go right and don't blame him at all when things go wrong. At any rate, I'll gently suggest that perhaps you put less weight on God's apparent role in all of this and do what YOU need to do to fix things other than just asking God for help and thanking him when he seems to have thrown you a bone. I mean, do you blame him for things going so badly that you're not living at home right now?



noas55 said:


> She says she may not call every day she works. I told her I wanted it.


You also told her that you're a clingy, needy, weak man who can't survive without the daily dose of wife. You're pushing her away by being weak, not attracting her by being a 'nice guy' as you put it. Your strategy of being overly nice has a lot of potential problems and when you tell her you need your daily phone call you're crossing the line from 'nice' to 'insecure and needy'.



noas55 said:


> I said “You are obviously busy so I will say goodbye, see you at 5 while I am on break.


Lose the attitude. It's not nice and it's accusatory. Next time shorten it to "ok, gotta go, see you at 5". 



noas55 said:


> I am the DUMPEE and she should be more considerate of my feelings at times.


Yeah and it should never rain and there should be no poverty and innocent people shouldn't be hit by cars or shot by driveby strangers. Life aint fair, forget about that, and if you're going to force yourself into the role of being a victim then just accept it. As far as she's concerned she doesn't owe you a thing. 



noas55 said:


> I am giving her everything at MY cost.


Again, your choice, which as you know goes against the advice of just about every single poster on your thread. 

Noas you can't nice her back. You can play it cool, detach a bit, cut the crap with the clingy needy stuff, and don't rely on God to fix this for you.

Good luck man.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Keep reminding yourself that if she were going to be considerate of your feelings, you would not be living alone. This will get worse before it gets better, if it does.

You have to accept the fact that you have been kicked out.

She may have been so nice lately simply because she has been so glad she knew you would actually leave.

Now that you have so much time, read/reread MMSLP, its linked in my signature.

Clinging, neediness, etc. will make every man she comes in contact with look more manly and attractive. You have already made a move that has little chance of working statistically, do not add fuel to the flame.

Let her chase you and see what happens for awhile. This takes guts, do not come up wanting.

Get the book!


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Chap is right Noas.

Right now you are the nice guy.

And while I admire your outlook you have to be in for the longhaul.

And "Nice Guys" finish last in any haul.

So start this week on improving you.

Who knows your wife might like what she sees and starts to visit you.

And let her mow the darn grass on her day off. She can use that day to improve herself as well you know.

And that includes having to do things that you used to do.

Because until you stop being nice she will not be missing you.

HM


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

No problems with last 3 posts. I understand and I am working on those traits. Hope next post helps you guys know I am not totally LOST to the cause.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Chap is right Noas.
> 
> Right now you are the nice guy.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Sat 8/3: W called about 3pm and asked me to come over after work (5pm) We had a great evening. She asked me to stay the night as I had hoped for. I agreed and told her I needed clothes for work on Sunday. She told me to bring clothes for 2 days!
Great days and one major argument that turned into a major breakthrough that has moved us major steps forward in our R (wife's words)
I found out that my W had been holding a major grudge against me for over 22 years. I thought it was already solved 15 years ago. I was so wrong! Something I said one night that was mean and tasteless. If I could I would go back an smack the crap out of that young man. Anyway after the 2 hour argument we finally reached that magical moment where I was forgiven. W admitted this probably kept us in constant turmoil all these years. Getting over it has helped her feel we can succeed now.

Sun 8/4: W has made the first text and calls the past 2 days we are apart.
I worked and W was scheduled to work. We both did not want her to and there should have been no way she would have been called off.. She got the call to be off and we had a blast. Thank God for that blessing. Lots of intimacy and smiles.

Mon 8/5: Went shopping together and spent all day until 10pm together. What a romantic weekend.
Today she talked to S19. She told him that in the last 4 days she has moved closer to me and she feels I may be home within the year of my lease.  She has even mentioned marriage and spiritual counseling may be needed which were HARD LINES just 4 weeks ago. She wants us to succeed and she wants me to come home once we get through her issues and needs as well as mine.
Her independence stance is now a liberation quest and she feels that will be solved in a short time and she DOES NOT want to live alone or with ANOTHER MAN. She just wants to enjoy some time w/o me to see what it would be like and confirm she can handle things if I die before her. (I have an illness)

We went swimming together for the first time in YEARS. She is now allowing me to take her out without restrictions because of how things are between us. We have made many future plans together as well. Even discussed our wedding (renewal of vows) plans. 
What a strange, wild, and blessed 2 months it has been since D day

Just spent last 2 hours texting back and forth. Lots of funny and heartfelt messages. She now has asked me to come back over in the morning when she wakes up. I will see her for a few hours before she sleeps for work.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Had a pleasant few hours with W this morning. She put up a picture (facebook) of her new genetically altered PURPLE ROSES I got her yesterday. She is so proud of them. 
She also put up a picture that stated: SOMETIMES YOU HEART NEEDS TIME TO ACCEPT WHAT YOUR MIND ALREADY KNOWS. She added, “Or sometimes my mind needs more time to accept what my heart already knows.” What great hope those two items have brought me today.

These two posts are the first in 8 weeks that show her FB world that she is beginning to sway in her original separation plans. She has liked things and made some basic comments. Many of my items about us she does not LIKE due to how her friends react to her. Like I stated these 2 items speak volumes to me and to her friends and family


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Had a pleasant few hours with W this morning. She put up a picture (facebook) of her new genetically altered PURPLE ROSES I got her yesterday.


Genetically engineered roses?

Wow they can do just about anything nowadays.

What's next, they remove the thorns?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Genetically engineered roses?
> 
> Wow they can do just about anything nowadays.
> 
> What's next, they remove the thorns?


LOL. No thorns on these stems. No clue on how or why

They are not cheap, but how they can change the color of them is awesome


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

So have you thought about how things are going to be after you are allowed to move back into your home?

Right now, she calls the shots, she says jump and you jump and smile about it, she says something from decades ago bothers her and you can't say sorry fast enough or enough times.

Are you going to be happy surrendering all power over to her for forever?

Is she going to be happy, or will she become bored with a man who doesn't challenge her or meet her as an equal?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Shaggy said:


> So have you thought about how things are going to be after you are allowed to move back into your home?
> 
> Right now, she calls the shots, she says jump and you jump and smile about it, she says something from decades ago bothers her and you can't say sorry fast enough or enough times.
> 
> ...


A 15 year grudge is a really bad sign.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

I'm glad you're in a good spot but I can't help thinking how emasculating your situation is. You were ejected out of your position as husband and father and now have to go to tryouts to see if you're worthy of fulfilling your former role? You ingratiate your wife with overtures and you're elated with the crumbs of affection sent back your way. You are content with her having harbored a grudge for 22 YEARS without having elicited a single utterance of having such a grudge. Where is your leadership? You are content in decoding thinly veiled facebook messages meant as tacit approval of your obedience to her but they're also broadcast to all of her friends. You're the **** of the month, congrats! I don't pretend to know whatever you did to her but it must be especially egregious. Can you share what it was you said that she held a grudge for two decades?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> So have you thought about how things are going to be after you are allowed to move back into your home?
> *
> Yes I actually have. We have talked about it as well. She wants things to be basically as before. Some changes are that we take vacations together and do more together. *
> 
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> A 15 year grudge is a really bad sign.


It was a bad sign. I was a total jack ass and fully deserved her bitterness. I demeaned the woman I loved when she was so young and full of pride. I took that and squashed it due to my arrogance. This was THE BIG DEAL in a lot of her issues. Thankfully she has forgiven me. It has helped her move closer. Soon I expect her to be able to forgive me for the more recent stuff. She is hopeful that she will be able to soon and shows it daily.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

noas55 said:


> It was a bad sign. I was a total jack ass and fully deserved her bitterness. I demeaned the woman I loved when she was so young and full of pride. I took that and squashed it due to my arrogance. This was THE BIG DEAL in a lot of her issues. Thankfully she has forgiven me. It has helped her move closer. Soon I expect her to be able to forgive me for the more recent stuff. She is hopeful that she will be able to soon and shows it daily.


Somehow it seems like you want a complicated thing to be simple noas. Life and relationships aren't simple and rarely (very rarely) is one person so fully repsonsible for relationship decay. It's normally takes two to make it work and two to make it fail. Please make sure you don't assume more of the fault than is yours.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

BrockLanders said:


> I'm glad you're in a good spot but I can't help thinking how emasculating your situation is. You were ejected out of your position as husband and father and now have to go to tryouts to see if you're worthy of fulfilling your former role? You ingratiate your wife with overtures and you're elated with the crumbs of affection sent back your way. You are content with her having harbored a grudge for 22 YEARS without having elicited a single utterance of having such a grudge. Where is your leadership? You are content in decoding thinly veiled facebook messages meant as tacit approval of your obedience to her but they're also broadcast to all of her friends. You're the **** of the month, congrats! I don't pretend to know whatever you did to her but it must be especially egregious. Can you share what it was you said that she held a grudge for two decades?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First off we are closer than we have been in probably 5-10 years. Tryouts? Don't think so. I AM HAVING TO PROVE I am not the neglecting husband I became. Believe me in that 2 hour fight I did express how pissed I was about the grudge. It was not all her. It was ugly and both of us nearly walked out of the house during it. We didn't because we are fighting to save our marriage.
HER EXPLANATION:This is the biggest complaint she has. Get by this and the others will be easier and she then could start to build the trust again for me.The reason it was brought up that night was that she was hoping to forgive me. She was expecting to say something about it, I tell her a small explanation and ask for forgiveness which she wanted to give. She brought it up, I got pissed because I thought we were already done with this ancient argument and we went off on each other. Finally cool heads prevailed and we both got what we wanted.

This is tough even in typing it out.
She was an assist. manager at a convenience store (age 20- first big role). I was 27 and already 10 years military and owned a business. They were short on staff and I volunteered to help out for a week as GM went on vacation. Just wife and myself and some man to help. Needless to say, the man never showed. So Wife did her job and I did 7 days straight, 12 hour shifts. We also had 2 young kids to help you understand why she did not work all the hours. GM is delayed for 3 more days. Kids got sick so I took over most of her duties and we ran the store together.
We do not recall what started the problem, but after all the hours, stress and crap, I blew up and told her," You suck as a manager. You should not even be in the position." She broke down crying and I walked away. i came back and she asked me if i meant it. I paused for a bit then said Yes I meant it. 
She broke down crying even more and went to the office while I closed up the store. later sometime it was brought up and I explained I was an exhausted after 120 plus hours in 10 days. I made a mistake and apologized. She said ok, but never forgave me. 

It was never spoke of again until MC in 2000 and until this past weekend.

She has since owned a day care, went into the Army at the age of 33, and has become a major role in our hospital that she nurses in. I have expressed how proud I am of her all these years. She never could accept the full value of the praises since she had the bitterness in her. 
I pride myself on saying what I mean. It came back to haunt me.
Thank God she is now past this and has forgiven me


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Somehow it seems like you want a complicated thing to be simple noas. Life and relationships aren't simple and rarely (very rarely) is one person so fully repsonsible for relationship decay. It's normally takes two to make it work and two to make it fail. Please make sure you don't assume more of the fault than is yours.


Oh I agree. I do not take blame for all the problems. Never have. I just admit i am aware of my faults. She has her faults and admits to them. That is what got us here. If she would have told me of the issues I could have possibly corrected or made changes that would have appeased her. 
She is now working on herself. This is part of her time away from me. She is in her prayers and reading as well.
We agree it takes two to make and break a marriage. We are working hard on it with god's help.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

That's a rather absurd reason to harbor a grudge for all that time. Yes, your delivery was brash but you were stating what you believed to be the truth. I really admire your dedication to your wife, but your entire situation is the result of irrational thought. What if she finds out she isn't capable of independent living and has you come back? Then you are relegated to the role of primarily being the caretaker and being your wife's husband and lover second. Do you want to be told at 60 that you were kept around because she couldnt part with $30 to have someone mow the lawn? She could have assumed more responsibilities with you in the house. The cost of maintaining two reisidences must cost a lot more than outsourcing landscaping, car repairs, laundry service. I know that emotions are not necessarily logical by nature and can't always be treated that way but I can't help but think that rewarding illogical actions now will not end well in the future. That said it sounds like things are working out for you so what the hell do I know?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Thundarr said:


> Somehow it seems like you want a complicated thing to be simple noas. Life and relationships aren't simple and rarely (very rarely) is one person so fully repsonsible for relationship decay. It's normally takes two to make it work and two to make it fail. Please make sure you don't assume more of the fault than is yours.


noas,

What was her role in the relationship breakdown?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

BrockLanders said:


> That's a rather absurd reason to harbor a grudge for all that time.
> *Remember my wife met me when she was 16, married me at 17. I was the person who finished raising her. She had an independent spirit, but always felt like she a quitter. Still does even today. Yes she quits things too much, but she has completed many things. Anyway, I probably crushed her spirit at a young age with those words. She looked up to me. I was her husband, best friend, and the ROCK that she leaned on.*
> 
> Yes, your delivery was brash but you were stating what you believed to be the truth.
> ...


Before I moved, I asked her twice if the move was really necessary due to cost. She wanted it.
You see how much we are seeing each other and I am staying at home. I could sense she was concerned about my thought of wasting money. In the past I would be pissed about it.
Yesterday I told her if I saw her daily for a year before I could come home, It was okay. It was worth the expense.
If I saw her and even slept over most of the nights, it was not wasteful. It gave her what she needed to overcome her desires.
This started over a talk about my $1 cheap shower curtain. She felt bad and I told her it was no problem. I will be using it for maybe a year and not that often if I am at home with her frequently. She agreed and said she could see that.
There are more talks of a year or less now before I go home. Every once in a while she says doubt or 2 years, but that is when walls are up


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> noas,
> 
> What was her role in the relationship breakdown?


W is one of those people who did not tell you what was bothering them. Always had to pry out the issue and sometimes it was not all the issue.
ACTUAL PROBLEMS: I do not drink cold beverages. We moved frequently due to Army. I never had ice cube trays. She never said she wanted them. In 2000 at MC I found out this was a major problem. She admitted she never told me.
This separation brought out that she wanted curtains opened and front door opened for light.
Never told me she did. major issue for her though.
She admits that when she told me of problems the past 5 years she was not direct. More cryptic talk that I had to guess at.
She knows she became selfish with her BFF and did not realize how she treated me with her time.
She was afraid to be honest with me for fear I would leave her (she thought i did not love her)
Resented my work due to hours away from her while I had to accept her work hours and lack of time she spent with me
She wanted me to go do stuff while she went elsewhere. She felt guilty and could not relax while I was resting and doing what I WANTED to do at home. I told her many times I was cool with the set up we had.
These are the big things.
These re what she has been working on these past weeks.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> I never had ice cube trays. She never said she wanted them. In 2000 at MC I found out this was a major problem.
> 
> She admitted she never told me.
> This separation brought out that she wanted curtains opened and front door opened for light.
> Never told me she did. major issue for her though.


A lack of ice cube trays and closing curtains and front doors can be a dealbreaker for most people, I totally get that. 

I guess I sort of wonder though, unless you've got the ability to read minds, how the heck you would know that since she seems to have trouble letting you know that she's holding an icecube tray/curtain grudge for over half a decade.

Either way I see why you're bending over backwards to try to make it right, however I don't think that you're doing enough given the time frame and severity of the grudges.

Maybe get her one of those animal shaped ice cube trays and a front door with window panels so she doesn't have to leave it open all the time, because that just isn't safe. Along with remote controlled timer operated curtains so you don't have to worry about remembering to open them at the right time.

She'll appreciate your thoughtfulness.

I wonder how many other grudges she has that she's keeping to herself and expecting you to figure out for yourself. Since she's unwilling or unable to verbalize, perhaps make a game out of it, such as she can do charades or maybe a game of hangman for each remaining grudge. Or, she can write down the grudges with numbered dots, you connect the dots to spell the grudge! Or maybe she writes down a whole bunch of grudges, real and fake, and you figure out which grudges are genuine, it could be tons of fun. Maybe play 'beer grudge' - for each correct guess, you take a big swig of your favorite brew. Of course, the game must end in sex. You can make Friday night 'guess the grudge' night- assuming of course that you're allowed to go over there.


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## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

Noas,

I'm glad things are getting better for you. You have to admit though, especially when you write it down, your wife sounds flat out insane. 

So there are really three possibilities:

The first is that she's crazy. That she decided to burn down a decades long marriage over ice cube trays and you calling her a bad convenience store manager. 

The second is that she is lying to you. That she wanted out of your marriage because she doesn't love you anymore, is in love with someone else (how are things with the bff?), or some other reason (maybe not so certain she is into guys anymore?). 

The third is that she is so wacked out, and her feelings are so disconnected from any rational thought process, that she when pressed to explain her behavior she resorts to random crap from the past. e.g. "why do you need me to move out?" She thinks for awhile, just knows she wants you out, can't think of a good answer... "Um.... you were mean to me once 20 years ago."

This whole thing stinks, man. I know you love her, but how can you trust her? She is either lying to you, or too unreliable to be trusted.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

^^Great post right there, however the three possibilities are not mutually exclusive, it's quite likely that all 3 are true.

Problem is, Noas doesn't see anything wrong with her holding decade long grudges about ice cube trays or a stress induced relatively minor insult.

He sees it as all his fault and he's gotta be the one to make it right by doing anything and everything she asks and praying for God's help, and nothing you or me or anyone else says to him will change his rather rigid mindset especially given that to Noas she seems to be more responsive lately so he's going to keep right on trucking.

Perhaps if things change for the worse, Noas, you can reread some of the excellent points on this thread and devise a new strategy.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

BK23 said:


> Noas,
> 
> I'm glad things are getting better for you. You have to admit though, especially when you write it down, your wife sounds flat out insane.
> 
> ...


BK hit this one on the screws so to speak. It is great things are going well now we all wish the best for you but long term...well one day at a time.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Before I moved, I asked her twice if the move was really necessary due to cost. She wanted it.
> You see how much we are seeing each other and I am staying at home. I could sense she was concerned about my thought of wasting money. In the past I would be pissed about it.
> Yesterday I told her if I saw her daily for a year before I could come home, It was okay. It was worth the expense.
> If I saw her and even slept over most of the nights, it was not wasteful. It gave her what she needed to overcome her desires.
> ...


That clears things up a bit. I get the picture now, you're frugal and willing to live without some comforts to save money while your wife isn't as willing to live as spartan as you do. I guess this boils down to communication, as I think you see already. If she had a want that she thought you'd see as frivilous she wouldn't say anything but she'd bottle up resentment. Is this an accurate assessment?

If you could, read some of your posts. While your desire to care for your wife's wants and needs are admirable, I don't see much in the line of what you want, other than saving your marriage. Is there anything you do for yourself? Any projects, hobbies, et al?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> A lack of ice cube trays and closing curtains and front doors can be a dealbreaker for most people, I totally get that..................


I am glad you can find humor in all this.
As much as my childhood has created problems for me, I know hers have caused problems as well.
She was the youngest child and her mother was an overbearing B**h of a mom. W was never allowed to complain or ask for stuff. I assume this is where all her problems came from when wanting something.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

BK23 said:


> Noas,
> 
> I'm glad things are getting better for you. You have to admit though, especially when you write it down, your wife sounds flat out insane.
> 
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> ^^Great post right there, however the three possibilities are not mutually exclusive, it's quite likely that all 3 are true.
> 
> Problem is, Noas doesn't see anything wrong with her holding decade long grudges about ice cube trays or a stress induced relatively minor insult.
> 
> ...


Explain the logic in changing a path that has lead to good things and very little bad when compared. I do not see it as all my fault. I am accepting and correcting what is my fault, and trying to help my W come to terms with her personal demons and show her how to accept and correct them. In the beginning, she had no clue as to what her problems really were. Hell she had no real clue in what she wanted from the separation AFTER she agreed to work on saving our marriage. I am giving her a majority of what she has asked for. She has a problem and I am doing all I can to help her come to terms with it, deal with it, and save my marriage at the same time.

If things change for the worse, I will reread not only the posts, but my journal that has more details in it to see what new strategy I would use IF I decide it is worth doing.

I am devoted to my marriage and wife. I am not stupid or seek abuse by staying unhappy. Yes I may not be using the standard advise that is given, BUT my progress can't be denied. Not all relationships can be solved in the same fashion every time.
I do have Faith in my God therefore I do pray to Him.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

tom67 said:


> BK hit this one on the screws so to speak. It is great things are going well now we all wish the best for you but long term...well one day at a time.


It will be a long road, but together and with counseling we can get through it.
If this was one of your children and not a wife, would all of you be saying dump her, get rid of her if it is an illness (crazy as bat poot)?
This is what concerns me about some responses on my thread as well as others.
To me, a marriage is built and loss by 2. Yes my wife has some major issues, but I have been given the chance to try to save my marriage, help her out (as a husband should) and possibly come through with a better wife, marriage and a better ME.
I may not be focusing ALL on me, but I am doing what I feel is needed NOW as I deal with all this one day at a time.
If (When) we get back together it will still be one day at a time until we both feel like counseling is not needed and the full trust is there on both sides. She admits she has to trust herself not to want to walk again. This is a problem that will need to be dealt with later


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

NOAs,

You misunderstood me. I'm not attacking you, but I am trying to point out that you are out of your home because you acted in manner A, now you are trying to earn your way back via manner B.

What will your manner be when you are back home ? And even if your wife says she wants B now and when you return, perhaps even she doesn't know what she wants in the long term.

Prepare for failure, but at same time plan for success.

You are very focused on today, but what about a year from now, or 10?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

BrockLanders said:


> That clears things up a bit. I get the picture now, you're frugal and willing to live without some comforts to save money while your wife isn't as willing to live as spartan as you do. I guess this boils down to communication, as I think you see already. If she had a want that she thought you'd see as frivilous she wouldn't say anything but she'd bottle up resentment. Is this an accurate assessment?
> *Yes. She is not a spender either, but she does spend in other areas that I wouldn't. We each have good allowances for our spending money and she knows I would buy her what she wants if she really wanted it. Sometimes she knows it isn't a NEED but a WANT. We talk about it and the decision goes either way. *
> 
> If you could, read some of your posts. While your desire to care for your wife's wants and needs are admirable, I don't see much in the line of what you want, other than saving your marriage. Is there anything you do for yourself? Any projects, hobbies, et al?
> ...


Brief life history of me: Parents divorced when I was 7. Never got anything from my family for free. Always had to earn it. Brother did though. EXAMPLE: He wrecked cars due to drinking and parents always bought him new cars. 13 DWIs. I have worked a full time job since I was 11 years old. I emancipated from my parents at age 15. Graduated at age 16 and entered Army at 17. Worked and dealt with Army duties throughout 23 year career (81-2003) Married my wife at age 23, she was 17.
I have owned 3 businesses and manager several others in my life. This is part of my wife's problems...married to them all these years led me to neglect her in her mind while I opened a business for her, trained her for the Army and paid for her college. She knows her views are wrong and is working on these as well

At age 48 I am semi retired and was enjoying life until D day. 

Maybe this will help you understand why I am frugal and deal with things the way I am.

Yes my priority is saving my marriage and helping my wife if I can


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

coachman said:


> I've thought this was a troll thread from the start.


Well coachman, you are wrong. To prove you wrong I will gladly give you my FB account if you want. 
As a person on the boards who gives advise and tries to help others in a sincere fashion, your comment is disgraceful and maybe others in my situation will see you in a different light.
Maybe you are upset because I chose not to take your advise. I don't know.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> NOAs,
> 
> You misunderstood me. I'm not attacking you, but I am trying to point out that you are out of your home because you acted in manner A, now you are trying to earn your way back via manner B.
> 
> ...


I see and understand what you are talking about now. I started in manner A because I was winging it and learning what she was needing/desiring from me. she is not wanting a big Alpha male. She did want me to become the Alpha I was before kids and I am there now.
Manner B is what she needed/desired and it seems to be working for the most part. Showing and saying my love, buying her gifts and putting her first in my life.
We are communicating and she knows I am tweaking things as we go along this road. In the process she is tweaking what she is giving to accommodate my desires and needs. She has cut back on her BFF time and moved me back into spot one in her life. She is working more to help offset the extra $700 a month in bills. She blames herself for the expense and feels she should cover it if possible.

I am the type of person who plans for the worst so I am not surprised. Will it hurt like Hell if my marriage fails? I will cry like a baby and will feel no shame in doing so, but I will be proud that i did all I could and never walked away.

The future looks bright for us together. More travel and relaxation. More loving touches, cuddling, communication, and time spent together
If it fails by divorce, I will take time and see if I can get over her. I will not make another woman play 2nd fiddle to my ex in my heart of life
If we stay together but living in separate houses: Concentrating on me more and she will have to understand. Not what we want but if our love is there, but we cant get back the trust the is an option we have discussed. Married completely except location wise. This has been put aside on table like divorce.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Shaggy said:


> NOAs,
> 
> You misunderstood me. I'm not attacking you, but I am trying to point out that you are out of your home because you acted in manner A, now you are trying to earn your way back via manner B.
> 
> ...


Women aren't turned on by yes men.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Women need either a equal partner or they need a leader - if varies from person to person what the right mix is - buy they never need a yes man in the long term,because it gets dull.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Well coachman, you are wrong. To prove you wrong I will gladly give you my FB account if you want.
> As a person on the boards who gives advise and tries to help others in a sincere fashion, your comment is disgraceful and maybe others in my situation will see you in a different light.
> Maybe you are upset because I chose not to take your advise. I don't know.


I suggest you simply ignore such absurd posts that accuse you of not having a real situation. There's always someone who posts on a thread that the Op is a troll because something about their story doesn't seem to make sense. Those sorts of posts are completely pointless (even on the off-chance that they're right). You don't need to prove anything to anyone.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> I suggest you simply ignore such absurd posts that accuse you of not having a real situation. There's always someone who posts on a thread that the Op is a troll because something about their story doesn't seem to make sense. Those sorts of posts are completely pointless (even on the off-chance that they're right). You don't need to prove anything to anyone.


Thanks Lenzi. Just a hard night for me. Having high hopes and seeing naysayers is tough enough. Seeing someone telling me my pain isn't real..gets under my skin.

Appreciate the communication, advise and support.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Women aren't turned on by yes men.


Of course they aren't. I may look like a yes man now but there are many times I am not. I am most definitely not one prior or will be later once we get things in order and moving smoother.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Women need either a equal partner or they need a leader - if varies from person to person what the right mix is - buy they never need a yes man in the long term,because it gets dull.


I was more of a Leader, but equal in several areas. When we come out of this I do see it more of an equal with me Leading in some areas. 
Yes man is temporary as we move forward to R


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> Women need either a equal partner or they need a leader - if varies from person to person what the right mix is - buy they never need a yes man in the long term,because it gets dull.


Equal partner will do.....


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> Of course they aren't. I may look like a yes man now but there are many times I am not. I am most definitely not one prior or will be later once we get things in order and moving smoother.


I hope you pick the "right time" to shift gears.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

noas55 said:


> I was more of a Leader, but equal in several areas. When we come out of this I do see it more of an equal with me Leading in some areas.
> Yes man is temporary as we move forward to R


If you are playing the yes man now, what makes you think you will move to equal once you reconcile? 

When I went from being the "yes partner" in our marriage to wanting to be his equal I was accused of not being a loving and caring wife. He didn't want to change the game after 24 years.

You're not being truthful if you're just playing along with her rules in order to reconcile. The two of you should be honest about what you both expect starting right now.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> If you are playing the yes man now, what makes you think you will move to equal once you reconcile?
> *Because I am not a yes man and my wife knows it too. She does not want me to be a yes man. We have discussed this just a few weeks ago. She knows why I am giving her what she wants: to help her get through this crisis and help us save the marriage. This discussion has helped her give me more of what I want as well. *
> 
> When I went from being the "yes partner" in our marriage to wanting to be his equal I was accused of not being a loving and caring wife. He didn't want to change the game after 24 years.
> *After 24 years of being a Leader, I am cool as an equal with my wife. That is what she is wanting to. I look at it as a nice rest for me. When it comes to survival of family, emergencies, and such I will be the Leader. This has been talked about as well. Her Independence/Liberation request is so she knows she can do it. It is not what she wants as a permanent situation. She told me this last weekend*


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

If you read my comment I believe in equal partners. After being in such a lop sided marriage myself for so long I feel it is the only way next time around for me. I believe that depending on what is going on with the individual people in the marriage there will be times one will have to be stronger for the other. It's learning to balance.

You just said you were playing the "yes man" because that's what you feel she needs you to do. She needs you to play that role so she can feel "independent"? How about you play equals and she can take charge of herself when it comes to her own matters. I'm sorry, I just think if she falls in love with this "super, yes man, nice guy" you've become she's not going to be happy once things begin to shift. 

It's like the two of you are living this honeymoon fantasy. We all know honeymoons never last.

I'm not telling you not to reconcile. If you can pull this off - great - but don't do it under some candy coated pretenses.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> If you read my comment I believe in equal partners. After being in such a lop sided marriage myself for so long I feel it is the only way next time around for me. I believe that depending on what is going on with the individual people in the marriage there will be times one will have to be stronger for the other. It's learning to balance.
> 
> *Exactly. It is time for us to be equals in most areas.*
> 
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Today was a good day for us. I saw her for a few hours while on split and just before she went to work.

2 days ago I texted," I love you and I am glad you can accept it now. One of my fears on D day was that you never would accept my love again"
She replied back, "I accept your love, am grateful for your love, doubt myself worthy of your love AT THIS MOMENT (my emphasis) for the fact I cannot return love to you in same fashion."
Today she kept acting like she wanted to say something, but would stop and smile. I asked a few times what it was she wanted t osay. She just smiled and shook her head. Hopefully tomorrow.
I will see her twice tomorrow: on split and tomorrow night. I hope I can stay the night and she will tell me what it was she wants to say.
I saw her briefly before she left for work. She initiated the intimacy and it was nice.


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## Iver (Mar 8, 2013)

noas55,

I don't have any profound words of wisdom for you except to say if you've read MMSL you know how important it is for you to get in fighting shape.

Make that a serious focus - it's not unreasonable to lose ~20 lbs. a month eating properly with reasonable exercise. Set goals like that if you haven't already.

It sounds like you are moving in the right direction but if you've taken the time to read some of the threads here you know far too many have been blindsided by bad news.

I hope that doesn't happen to you but again - get yourself where you know you need to be. 

It will help tremendously in your efforts to stay married and if worse comes to worse it will help you in moving on with your life.

Like the old saying goes: "Hope for the Best but prepare for the Worst"

Good Luck.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

I weighed 285 pounds on April 15th just prior to getting dentures. I am now down to 235. 50 pounds off forever!!
I aim to reach 200 by end of year and final goal is 170-180 which is what I weighed when I met my wife. She does not want me less than that although the medical field says 150....too skinny for my big bones.
Thanks IVER for the vote of confidence. My sex rank has improved over the past 2 months. I am praying for the best and planning for the worst. I know it can go bad, but from what i am seeing, she is falling back IN LOVE with me. Read today's story I am about to write and I hope you agree.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thurs 8/8: W calls and informs me she has S19 and going to replace his tire he blew out. This is the same tire he has had flats with, but would not fix. later she called and said they were getting it fixed and I offered her to come to apt to sleep since she was on my side of town. She wanted to eat first. GREAT! 10 mins later I get a call that they needed help at his car. I get to car and he has parked it on downhill slope and jack cant work with car rolling...He forgot emergency brake 
In the past I would get angry and tell the boys, you have been taught better...why didn't you do as you were told..etc. in these circumstances. Controlling military father stuff. Today I was calm and cool. Got it done and off we went to eat. At diner she commented how son did not want to call me due to my past reactions. I told her I fully understood. She was happy with how I handled it today.
We went home after diner and I held her until she fell asleep. As I have always done these past 2 months, I kissed her & told her I love her as I left for work...she mumbled back Love you too. Good to here but could be habit. One day I will hear it straight.
On split we had a good day. I told her I feel like I am playing the guessing game when it comes to her feelings and needs. She said she needed some personal quiet time to process all the things that have happened recently, talk to God, and come to terms with herself. She knows about TAM and my journal. She asked if they help. I assures her and told her the journal would help her deal with her issues. Write it as if talking to a therapist.

It was hard hearing she wants some extra space now, but maybe it is a good thing. She assured me it was not about NOT seeing me. Just time to deal with things. Off to work I had to go.
Came home tonight as planned and she was writing in her journal. I told her I would leave. She asked me to stay. We talked a bit and then I moved to office so she could finish her writing before she went to work for meeting. She is off tonight so we will spend time together. Don't know if I am staying overnight, but it will be nice anyway. She did do my laundry though while I worked.:smthumbup:
For the last 20 mins before she left, she was passionate, smiling and acting once more like she wanted to talk. Nothing yet.

This morning she told me a story of a nurse who saw my genetic flowers on FB. Asked W if it made a big impact. W says she said Yes. It nearly did it for her. I teased that I got THIS CLOSE. She smiled big and said yeah.

I know her feelings are growing. I also know she fears those feelings. Her friends tell me that she is all smiles at work when she talks about me and always says "we are working on it" when separation is brought up.
Hope tonight ends as good as day has been


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Thurs 8/8: W calls and informs me she has S19 and going to replace his tire he blew out. This is the same tire he has had flats with, but would not fix. later she called and said they were getting it fixed and I offered her to come to apt to sleep since she was on my side of town. She wanted to eat first. GREAT! 10 mins later I get a call that they needed help at his car. I get to car and he has parked it on downhill slope and jack cant work with car rolling...He forgot emergency brake
> In the past I would get angry and tell the boys, you have been taught better...why didn't you do as you were told..etc. in these circumstances. Controlling military father stuff. Today I was calm and cool. Got it done and off we went to eat. At diner she commented how son did not want to call me due to my past reactions. I told her I fully understood. She was happy with how I handled it today.
> We went home after diner and I held her until she fell asleep. As I have always done these past 2 months, I kissed her & told her I love her as I left for work...she mumbled back Love you too. Good to here but could be habit. One day I will hear it straight.
> On split we had a good day. I told her I feel like I am playing the guessing game when it comes to her feelings and needs. She said she needed some personal quiet time to process all the things that have happened recently, talk to God, and come to terms with herself. She knows about TAM and my journal. She asked if they help. I assures her and told her the journal would help her deal with her issues. Write it as if talking to a therapist.
> ...


You need to back away and let her tell you how she feels. Its almost as if your begging for affirmation. That is very weak and will not appeal to her in the long run. Your like a little puppy following her around wanting to be patted on the head. You know God didn't put us on earth to be the weaker sex, he wanted us to be the head of the household.

Personally I think you have developed an approval addiction and are codependent on her.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Fisherman said:


> You need to back away and let her tell you how she feels. Its almost as if your begging for affirmation. That is very weak and will not appeal to her in the long run. Your like a little puppy following her around wanting to be patted on the head.


This is exactly what I've been trying to say.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Noas

Good way to handle the car situation.

I have been there with the anger issues myself.

You are improving.

Stay positive!

HM


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Fisherman said:


> You need to back away and let her tell you how she feels. Its almost as if your begging for affirmation. That is very weak and will not appeal to her in the long run. Your like a little puppy following her around wanting to be patted on the head. You know God didn't put us on earth to be the weaker sex, he wanted us to be the head of the household.
> 
> Personally I think you have developed an approval addiction and are codependent on her.


Maybe I have developed an approval addiction. I am backing away some. Codependent...will agree especially since we have been together so long. As far as letting her tell me how she feels, that is what I have done. She is the one telling me how she feels and I am posting it. 
Puppy following her around? Not quite.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Noas
> 
> Good way to handle the car situation.
> 
> ...


Thanks HAPPY. The anger issue has always been a problem. I am doing all I can to keep it in check and learn to control it.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

had a great night with W last night. She got in from staff meeting and we went to IHOP to eat and let her vent about meeting. Listened w/o interrupting or offering solutions. Told her if she wanted my business advice I was there for her. 
Got home and we cuddled on couch. She said I could stay the night IF I WANTED to. I asked if she wanted me to. back and forth we went. I finally told her I did not want the offer as a THROWING ME A BONE offer, but HER WANTING ME TO STAY. She said it was an offer from her heart to me. Yes I stayed. No sex tonight which is ok, but those urges are tough  
While talking in bed she stated she was glad I was still her husband. I told her that was a long time since I heard her use that word for me. "I refer to you with all my friends as my husband." I know this is true, but not to me. I told her I believe her but it was nice to hear it myself. 
Tonight she said her doubts now are only about fears of being back in this situation later in marriage. I can’t worry about that until trust and Love are solved mostly. Her doubts of ever trusting or being IN LOVE have all but gone away.
She did say she does see us together in the future.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

noas55 said:


> She said I could stay the night IF I WANTED to. I asked if she wanted me to. back and forth we went. I finally told her I did not want the offer as a THROWING ME A BONE offer, but HER WANTING ME TO STAY. She said it was an offer from her heart to me.


This is what I am talking about. She told you that you could stay and all she wanted to hear was you wanted to. Instead you get in this back and forth, you want me to, yes, are you sure, yes, well if you really want me to. Can't you just take her word the first time instead of making it 50 questions, do you know how submissive that sounds?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

FISH: All the other times she has asked I have told her yes I wanted to OR I have told her I wanted to stay the night. This time I was striving to hear her say it. Sorry for any confusion.
Now if you think I still was wrong, I can accept that. I felt maybe you did not know the whole situation


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

noas55 said:


> I weighed 285 pounds on April 15th just prior to getting dentures. I am now down to 235. 50 pounds off forever!!
> I aim to reach 200 by end of year and final goal is 170-180 which is what I weighed when I met my wife. She does not want me less than that although the medical field says 150....too skinny for my big bones.
> Thanks IVER for the vote of confidence. My sex rank has improved over the past 2 months. I am praying for the best and planning for the worst. I know it can go bad, but from what i am seeing, she is falling back IN LOVE with me. Read today's story I am about to write and I hope you agree.


The train wreck was easy enough to see coming noas. Seems like you were physically and mentally lazy ( that my opinion from previous pages anyway ) for a long time and it's no wonder she was biding her days until the last kid graduated so she could get out. Case in point: You gained over a hundred lbs and admitedly wasn't very considerate or nice a lot of the time.

Good news is that you had a lot of room to improve and it sounds like you're making some good steps. Be careful about losing too much weight too quickly though. Dieting and cardio aren't adequate. You need to lift some weights to keep the muscle you have. Also you need to keep motivation when or if things settle down. Motivation by necessity is a short term fix. That could be what she's worried about is that you'll settle back into old habits, put the weight back on, do .... whatever you used to do before you changed.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> The train wreck was easy enough to see coming noas. Seems like you were physically and mentally lazy ( that my opinion from previous pages anyway ) for a long time and it's no wonder she was biding her days until the last kid graduated so she could get out. Case in point: You gained over a hundred lbs and admitedly wasn't very considerate or nice a lot of the time.
> 
> Good news is that you had a lot of room to improve and it sounds like you're making some good steps. Be careful about losing too much weight too quickly though. Dieting and cardio aren't adequate. You need to lift some weights to keep the muscle you have. Also you need to keep motivation when or if things settle down. Motivation by necessity is a short term fix. That could be what she's worried about is that you'll settle back into old habits, put the weight back on, do .... whatever you used to do before you changed.


You are so correct. I was a train wreck, rude and neglectful to my wife. I did become fat and lazy on my looks. sad thing is, I was 150 pounds overweight *(I did hit 315 3 years ago) and could still outwork kids and young men with my stamina. I could do 12 hours of labor without breaks. I truly think this was part of my inability to realize I was so FAT  Women still flirted with me so that did not help too.
I have purposely stopped weight loss for about 2 weeks to let body rehab. I start working out at YMCA next week!! Whole family will be getting into shape, including wife 
Motivation issue will be harder later, but I do realize how important it is NOT TO MESS UP AGAIN. I am clear minded on my issues. I am still looking for good counseling for my issues. Living in town of 50,000 does not give much choice.
I know that her fears of me regressing ARE THE #1 issue of my returning home and for our happiness in our future marriage. She has even told me this. Right now all I have is words and some action. Over time the actions will stand out more and she will see the man she loves now has defeated the old "me". 
As far as weight, I ate due to self punishment and stress. I do not have that desire now. I still struggle to reach 1800 calories unless I drink beer. I don't want beer if I am with my wife, but I do eat more with her so I hit that 1800 calories sometimes. 
One major thing I used to do is sit on couch and eat while watching movies/tv. No more. I get my ass up and do yard work and enjoy the park and fresh air.
Yes these changes are for me, but also for her, and my kids. I could have easily had a heart attack or became diabetic due to my neglecting of myself. 
My family did try to show concern, but I tuned them out and they buried their fears.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

noas55 said:


> You are so correct. I was a train wreck, rude and neglectful to my wife. I did become fat and lazy on my looks. sad thing is, I was 150 pounds overweight *(I did hit 315 3 years ago) and could still outwork kids and young men with my stamina. I could do 12 hours of labor without breaks. I truly think this was part of my inability to realize I was so FAT  Women still flirted with me so that did not help too.
> I have purposely stopped weight loss for about 2 weeks to let body rehab. I start working out at YMCA next week!! Whole family will be getting into shape, including wife
> Motivation issue will be harder later, but I do realize how important it is NOT TO MESS UP AGAIN. I am clear minded on my issues. I am still looking for good counseling for my issues. Living in town of 50,000 does not give much choice.
> I know that her fears of me regressing ARE THE #1 issue of my returning home and for our happiness in our future marriage. She has even told me this. Right now all I have is words and some action. Over time the actions will stand out more and she will see the man she loves now has defeated the old "me".
> ...


Those are realistic concerns, I ended up with the heart attack and the diabetes. And diabetes is a curse. Good for you that you have done something about it before its too late.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> FISH: All the other times she has asked I have told her yes I wanted to OR I have told her I wanted to stay the night. This time I was striving to hear her say it.


Stop striving. 

Grow a set and be secure in your own skin.

Be strong. Build attraction. Don't beg for scraps of reassurance. If she wants a puppy she'll adopt one.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Stop striving.
> 
> Grow a set and be secure in your own skin.
> 
> Be strong. Build attraction. Don't beg for scraps of reassurance. If she wants a puppy she'll adopt one.


LOL. Okay I hear you. Thanks!


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Good day at work and texted with W for 2 hours as time allowed. 
Good clean fun and some good laughs. We joked about her not telling me how she feels when she obviously feels some things.

My mother was a true die hard southern woman who used a cast iron skillet on her men. She even told my wife she would probably need to on me. 
Any way my wife has a bad shoulder from military injury and will not get surgery. We got to joking about her using the frying pan on me during the past. She says she did, just not hard enough. That was how she wore out her shoulder by too many repetitions of hits.
It was great that we could laugh about our situation.

Only bad point was as we chatted on phone later this evening. I was wrong and I have admitted to it. Just part of the changes I am making.
She let a neighbor borrow our lawnmower to cut someone else's grass. In exchange he will cut my grass. My concern is that this guy is irresponsible and has no money. If he breaks mower, he cant fix it or replace it. We have encountered this situation with other "friends". I am also concerned that the grass will not get cut before a storms come in late Sunday night. He has failed to uphold his word to us before. I also felt this is my responsibility since it is my yard.

W told me I was trying to control the situation, it was not my job to cut the grass. I did it out of love. (true), I was not giving her the respect that she could make decision on her own, and this is something I needed to talk TAM about. 
After we talked for a while about it, I came to realize she was correct. I told her I understood and agreed. She said right now in our separation I needed to give her the chance to make the decision and if she failed she had to face the consequences. I taught her well and to trust her. She is correct.
She then said when we are back together later on she would talk to me about such decisions. Just at this time she NEEDS to be able to do this w/o my input.

Anyway, I know I messed up, but after 25 years of being THE PROTECTOR, hard habits and lifestyle are hard to change. At least she understands this. She said no damage was done. She knows it is hard for me to adjust. Just learn from mistake.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

It bugs me too that another man is doing something that I can be doing at my home. I know there is no chance for an affair there, but still jealousy does come into play.
How would she feel if another woman wanted to do my laundry?

W was also said she was trying to be considerate of me working and then coming to house to cut grass in heat of day.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

It bugs me too that another man is doing something that I can be doing at my home. I know there is no chance for an affair there, but still jealousy does come into play.
How would she feel if another woman wanted to do my laundry?

W was also said she was trying to be considerate of me working and then coming to house to cut grass in heat of day.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

I wouldn't get too worked up about it, lawnmowing is not that big a deal. He will break your lawnmower and she will learn a lesson. I think she is trying to give you a break. Why don't your sons mow the lawn, are yours like mine, would disappear when asked to do something.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Fisherman said:


> I wouldn't get too worked up about it, lawnmowing is not that big a deal. He will break your lawnmower and she will learn a lesson.


I know. It is I know if he breaks it that she will feel bad, be afraid I will do an I TOLD YOU SO (which I wont) & probably make for a bad evening for us and we will have to buy another one.
I did drive by on way home (store is near home) and saw he had cut the neighbor's grass, but not mine. Hope he gets it done.If not she has stated she will be banging on his door at 7:30am when she gets home.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

I went to church for first time in 5 years. I have not gone regularly in over 11 years. First time w/o my wife by my side. It felt strange with her not beside me. 
Our work schedules have always been an issue on attending church. Praying we can change that together. Although I was already saved, I felt I needed to recommit myself to Jesus since I had broken away from Him for so long. It does feel good to be welcomed Home.
When I told my wife I was going to church this morning, I could hear the pause in her voice. I think she was shocked and I do believe it pleased her to see me take this step.
She told me months ago she had been wanting us to get back into church. I always felt our schedules were too tight and she could only go every other week...so why bother. Dummy Dummy Dummy!!
I did offer her to attend with me in the future. We will see if she accepts. I hope so since she is praying again.


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## Mike11 (Aug 25, 2011)

noas55 I have been following your thread for some time now 

I honestly think this is eventually not going to end up well for you,I think you are doing a mistake by hanging around her, you must understand that she literally "fired" you from your position as her husband and what you are currently doing may backfire big time 
She asked for Separation, in my book separation is not being in a marriage, it is being SEPARATED, and on the way for Divorce. 

Please understand I am not writing this to ruin your hopes, more of a wake up call,I have been in your shoes, (I am STILL married for the same length of time like you),Woman are emotional creatures they rationalize things trough their emotions, your wife is not different, she has been with you for 24 years,throughout these years trough some rationalization of hers be founded or unfounded she has decided that her love for you declined and it is time for her to bail out, it is not her wish to hurt you, but she is saying all these nice things to you and behaving lovingly to you for a simple purpose of both keeping you as an option, and at the same time assuaging her guilt for hurting you.

what I read from her behavior is that she does not really want to be with you , she still want to be separated from you, and as much as I don't know your wife, you never wish to be apart from someone you truly love, and your wife, even with this behavior and displays of love still wants to be apart from you.

She is assuaging her Guilt, getting her emotional needs met trough you in this time of separation, she is getting herself used to live a single life with slowly less and less support from you (the "lawnmower" issue?) detaching from you and eventually start dating other men, and at the same time push you further and further away slowly laying down the new rules to you until the inevitable end result of her being on her own.

She, at that time will be telling all family and friends that she has tried her best with you for a year and it did not work this is why she is divorcing you.

Please wake up, what you are doing is prolonging your agony, she doesn't really want you, she wants to be free of you,
all the rest is an emotional deception to soften the eventual blow.

My wife and I had a life altering event in our family, one of the family members became very sick, for some years until the situation got stable, she was not my wife anymore but a caregiver to the family member, by the time all was stable and the family member was out of danger she approached and asked for separation in the same manner you wife did, said she wanted to explore her feelings for me and if she still wanted to be married to me, all this time we were living as room mates, no sex no intimacy, but we were very cordial and friendly to each other, we still needed to care for the family member. 

I was detached and she was as well, I was very sad to hear that request, but I have come to accept it and told her that Separation for me means the end of the road, I will not be separated, if she wants she can get a divorce I cannot stop her, but no separation, no friends no nothing, and no turning back.
She eventually dropped that separation and instead we are WIP doing very well considering.

Noas55, you still have a chance, if you want your wife back you must cut your attachment to her, let her go in your mind, let her do her own things and more than everything let her miss you, accept this situation, work on yourself, lose weight, show your strength, remind her why she fell in love with you in the first place, get Alpha traits stronger then your current beta traits, keep her guessing your whereabouts, go dark on her, don't answer her calls let them go to VM and take a 3 hour rule to call back, make her see that you are busy without her and not dependent on her, woman Love and are attracted to independent strong men by natural selection

create yourself social life that is not including her,get a hoby that you always wanted to do but put it away because of her, go ballroom dancing or Salsa dancing, there are vibrant social groups everywhere in these dancing clubs, she will suddenly see a shift in you, remain cordial , keep extending these loving gestures and be a gentleman to her but don't be all the time available like you are and don't supply her emotional needs all the time that will backfire big time 
I am willing to place a bet she will knock on your door faster then a road runner if you do the above and she really loves you 

I must also say that this may not work, and that she has already made her mind up to slowly let you go so it may not work but if that is the case at least you will leave with your dignity and she would have left any way. 

I sure hope that I am wrong and you and her will make it eventually,honestly it does not look good from outside 

Best of luck to you 


Mike


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Mike11 said:


> noas55 I have been following your thread for some time now
> 
> I honestly think this is eventually not going to end up well for you,I think you are doing a mistake by hanging around her, you must understand that she literally "fired" you from your position as her husband and what you are currently doing may backfire big time
> She asked for Separation, in my book separation is not being in a marriage, it is being SEPARATED, and on the way for Divorce.
> ...


Thanks Mike for your info. Yeah I am agreeing with you and all the others on cutting back my time. I do not regret my method over these past 9 weeks. We MADE incredible progress together. Now it is time for the space to begin.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Wife is working, while I am at home doing laundry.
She got used as I expected and I was polite to her. The guy did not cut grass. At least he returned the mower; out of gas of course. As storms moving in I went ahead and cut grass and some other yard work that was needed.
Today while talking about us, W says she still has not moved forward emotionally. Her feelings of deep caring are growing, but not IN Love or even missing me. (this is where I figured it was time to slow visits) My only date night in 2 weeks will be cut short because she wants to see her BFF that she has not seen in 3 weeks. I understand, but it irks me. She is scheduled to work Tues night so I wont see her unless she is on call. She may ask me to come by in the morning, but maybe not. After that there is very limited chance of seeing her until weekend and I work so she may not make time for me. Could be long 2 weeks, but that may be what WE NEED. I know 2 weeks wont be all the time, but maybe it will jump start her some.
She says she is not wanting me out of her life. She is still using references of WHEN I COME HOME. I am nervous on if she is being real or faking it. 
I do believe once she can forgive me, it will help her release some crap and she can begin to feel emotions again. She has begun gaining the trust, loves the new ME, BUT she has not moved forward emotionally.
I did tell her not to "cookie crumb" me. Wean me off her slowly. She said she wan't. She was just ready to move onto the next phase of the separation (space & time alone) and hopefully she can find her feelings for me. I reminded her of our agreements and that if I ever thought they were being abused, I would speak to her and she must make changes ASAP or I would leave. She said she does not want to abuse them or me. She just needs this time. 

She did refer to AMPS seperation and reminded me that they fought together for over 3 years before his wife could say those words.
She has even stated that not being IN LOVE is not the deal breaker. She wants me to not regress. (Main doubts) We are working on ED issue soon which I hope helps us as well. 
It hurts her that she can not return the love I have for her
The Love Language stuff is working for her. It is going into her DEEP CARE section, not IN LOVE section.
She says she is still working on saving our marriage, does want us to work out, and is confused on her emotions part and has no clue on what to do about it.
She promised we would seek whatever counseling we can do and we will give it a good go before any talks of permanent separation is mentioned.

So any suggestions on kick starting her emotions? 
Do you think the space/time will help?
Am I wrong on thinking the forgiving my past is keeping her from healing?

I do know we have repaired so much already, but we have a LONG road ahead.
LOVE BUSTERS is current book I am reading and have suggested for her.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Thanks Mike for your info. Yeah I am agreeing with you and all the others on cutting back my time. I do not regret my method over these past 9 weeks. We MADE incredible progress together. Now it is time for the space to begin.


I am truly glad that you realized this now a few days out of the week do things for you not including her. Keep on working on yourself you will come out of this a better man no matter what ultimately transpires.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

tom67 said:


> I am truly glad that you realized this now a few days out of the week do things for you not including her. Keep on working on yourself you will come out of this a better man no matter what ultimately transpires.


Tonight is a strange one.
Is it normal for one to feel like things are over at this stage when there is no real reason or nothing ultimately has changed since 2 nights ago? 
Or is it a pity party? 
Possible grief session?
I am hurting, angry, saying mean stuff out loud to my wife while I am alone. Tearing up, but not breaking down. 
Irrationally I feel like I have wasted 24 years of my life. I know it isn't true, but I feel that way right now.

Above all, even with W promises, I am afraid of marriage ending too soon. 
Tomorrow I will feel better. I pray she will forgive me for at least some of the stuff she has bottled up. That would be some good progress.


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## Mike11 (Aug 25, 2011)

noas55 said:


> Wife is working, while I am at home doing laundry.
> She got used as I expected and I was polite to her. The guy did not cut grass. At least he returned the mower; out of gas of course. As storms moving in I went ahead and cut grass and some other yard work that was needed.
> Today while talking about us, W says she still has not moved forward emotionally. Her feelings of deep caring are growing, but not IN Love or even missing me. (this is where I figured it was time to slow visits) My only date night in 2 weeks will be cut short because she wants to see her BFF that she has not seen in 3 weeks. I understand, but it irks me. She is scheduled to work Tues night so I wont see her unless she is on call. She may ask me to come by in the morning, but maybe not. After that there is very limited chance of seeing her until weekend and I work so she may not make time for me. Could be long 2 weeks, but that may be what WE NEED. I know 2 weeks wont be all the time, but maybe it will jump start her some.
> She says she is not wanting me out of her life. She is still using references of WHEN I COME HOME. I am nervous on if she is being real or faking it.
> ...



Ugh Noas. I was hoping I was wrong here, as I see it she just told you what is going to happen and it is not going to be good result I am relay hoping that I am wrong here, don't you see it ? 
she is not committing to anything about your relationship with her, moreover she just gave you a big hint to that, 

did she actually mentioned the words "permanent separation" in this discussion ?, and seriously, do you believe to what she said about not stringing you along?, Man, as I see it your wife has a plan, she had that plan for long time already and she is working on executing right now, *This is what I read as her plan* : 

*Phase 1:* get Noas out of the house - Check, 
*Phase 2:* get Noas defenses lowered and complacent as much as possible slowly get him used to the situation by playing an emotional game of words and assurance - Check 

*Phase 3:* Get used to the single life Make the separation permanent, let the emotional bond and connection with Noas as low as possible with a time off cooling period, This is the time to sample the single life and what is out there (I am only 42 and I am still young and have lots of other Men out there to sample and enjoy off) 

*Phase 4:* get in to a new life, new relationship with a possibly a new partner and a new exiting life, Noas is going to be ok he will get over it and I will have him doing all kind of chores for me like cutting the grass, taking care of the house , fixing things, be my emotional support when I will have a fight with my new boyfriend. 


Noas, Please understand this is what is happening I am truly sorry and my intentions are not to put you down, and I really really hope that it will work out, I may be wrong here but you don't seem to get the magnitude of the bad situation you are in 

But just from reading above what you wrote about your discussion with her makes me cringe, your wife seem highly intelligent, very much an Alpha female, she seem to know exactly what she wants and will work to get it, can you tell a bit about her, her BFF if she has one? her social circle ?, who are her friends? does she has an "influencer " someone that she confides and trust that went trough something similar or some sort who enables her and advises her?

I don't recall you speaking about these in your thread and if you did my apologies for asking again


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## Mike11 (Aug 25, 2011)

noas55 said:


> Tonight is a strange one.
> Is it normal for one to feel like things are over at this stage when there is no real reason or nothing ultimately has changed since 2 nights ago?
> Or is it a pity party?
> Possible grief session?
> ...




Yes this is normal, your mind is coming to terms understanding what is happening although your heart is still refusing to let go
your emotional cycle of grief is starting to take hold Start the Hard 180 on her it will help you detach 

I am sorry Noas but I think for the long run there is still a chance with a slight change in your game plan


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

noas55 said:


> Tonight is a strange one.
> Is it normal for one to feel like things are over at this stage when there is no real reason or nothing ultimately has changed since 2 nights ago?
> Or is it a pity party?
> Possible grief session?
> ...


Sorry this is hitting you now. 
I think you need to stop walking on eggshells when it comes to figuring things out, like exactly what her feelings and plans are. You are living in limbo, bending over backward to make her happy and its not doing anything for you.
She talks in vague terms, letting you draw your own conclusions. That isn't right.
Maybe deep down you know it's time to address this the right way, on equal ground.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Mike11 said:


> Ugh Noas. I was hoping I was wrong here, as I see it she just told you what is going to happen and it is not going to be good result I am relay hoping that I am wrong here, don't you see it ?
> she is not committing to anything about your relationship with her, moreover she just gave you a big hint to that,
> 
> did she actually mentioned the words "permanent separation" in
> ...


W is an alpha female age 42. we are very much the same on work ethic, religion beliefs, family values, etc. BFF is 30 and has had numerous affairs and 2cd marriage. These things do upset my wife for it goes against religious beliefs. Social Life is pretty much workers and her female friends. she may go to the clubs once every 6 months. W will not dance with another man at any time. BFF is her influencer. The strange thing is BFF says she will support W decision, but BFF is telling her she needs to really think before she leaves marriage. (early on in the first month) Now it is like most of W friends... you are going to lose husband if you don't be careful. Only her mother and 3 other angry divorcees are telling her to leave


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Mike11 said:


> Yes this is normal, your mind is coming to terms understanding what is happening although your heart is still refusing to let go
> your emotional cycle of grief is starting to take hold Start the Hard 180 on her it will help you detach
> 
> I am sorry Noas but I think for the long run there is still a chance with a slight change in your game plan


You say there is a chance, but with slight change in game plan. Is the 180 the change or am I missing something else?
I did think it was grief. Just hate the feeling.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> I think you need to stop walking on eggshells when it comes to figuring things out, like exactly what her feelings and plans are.
> *Are you saying be more firm with her? I was that today. that is how we started talking more.*


Thanks for the advice and support


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Yes that is what I'm saying. You need to stand up for yourself. I'm not saying do it in a mean,screaming type of way. I'm saying you need to tell her all the vague answers are not ok with you. There has to be some sort of structured game plan. Not all this wishy-washy stuff she's been telling you.
If she wants to "find herself" then she needs to do it on her own, not with you waiting in the wings every time she decides she wants you around.
You need to stop making it so easy for her, she doesn't miss you because the minute she calls you go. It's like you live for her, you have sacrificed yourself for everything she wants or needs. That is not the basis to a healthy relationship.


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## Mike11 (Aug 25, 2011)

smallsteps said:


> Yes that is what I'm saying. You need to stand up for yourself. I'm not saying do it in a mean,screaming type of way. I'm saying you need to tell her all the vague answers are not ok with you. There has to be some sort of structured game plan. Not all this wishy-washy stuff she's been telling you.
> If she wants to "find herself" then she needs to do it on her own, not with you waiting in the wings every time she decides she wants you around.
> You need to stop making it so easy for her, she doesn't miss you because the minute she calls you go. It's like you live for her, you have sacrificed yourself for everything she wants or needs. That is not the basis to a healthy relationship.


:smthumbup: Listen to what smallsteps had wrote here this is part of your game plan

Look at my first post, this is in general terms your game plan 

1) you need to behave very much like she has lost you, start going out to social groups in your area, may be Ball room dancing or something similar, may be a church quire, explore out and take half of the time you used to spend with her and re direct it to something else that not includes her , I for example took Motorcycle riding lessons got my license and started to go out riding in a group, this group had female riders, you should see the sudden level of interest my wife had suddenly developed when she learned there are woman in the group. 

2) you must detach, become Somewhat unavailable, remember she wanted you out, she wants to be alone without you, than show her it is hard to be without you be unavailable, you don't live in the house any more, *DO NOT* do your laundry there , *DO NOT* cut the grass, although it is still your house it is a weak thing to do, stay away let the house be her problem, not yours any more, let her struggle a bit 
show her what she stand to lose if you divorce 


3) no more long phone calls, no more un-announced/announced visits to be together if she invites you, politely refuse, say(not in a nasty way) that you have other plans, never answer her calls let them go to Voice mail, make your self a 3 hours return call policy and then make the calls with her cordial and as indifferent as possible the same politeness that you speak with your bank teller, again show her what she stand to lose

4) No more relationship discussions with her, I would have one more discussion with her as smallsteps suggested above to get some direct answers (which by the way will be a tell tale sign about her true intentions if you manage to get an answer from her) but that will be the last talk you do with her about your relationship what ever you get out of that, unless she initiates relationship discussions and if she does, insist on straight answers that aligned with what you want and need from the marriage.

5)Please download and read the book Married men Sex life by Athol Kay 
That is a *must read book* for you at this time 
This is your Man Manual you must read it very carefully and fully understand you need to implement a MAP (Male Action Plan) ASAP you are way too late in the game for that but you still have time

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Amazon.ca: Athol Kay: Books


Your wife is acknowledging herslef that she is very aware that she might lose you in this process (and still going trough with this Separation thing) this is an ominous sign *you are mistaken if you look at this as her being afraid to lose you * she is merely acknowledges the possible end result of this exercise justifying it to herslef and her friends 

you cannot "nice" her back to be attracted to you, you can not control her or her feelings for you, you must do thigns that will arrows her female attraction to you, the way you handled this thus far was far from it.

now I was pretty much sure there was an enabler in the background, please don't believe a word this BFF of hers telling you be vary careful in discussions with her you have no clue what she is talking and telling your wife about your discussions with her I would be very weary about her true intentions

The angry divorcee crowd *must go * insist firmly with your wife to stop all association with these immediately
these are enemies of your marriage 
My wife had these as well, that was a red line that she dared not to cross I said to her "choose between marriage and family or become one of them". she understood why 
with regards to your mother in law, stay away as much as possible she is a problem 

You must be a leader for your life, at the moment you are following her accommodating all her whims and supplying her emotional needs, if she wants to join the ride of life with you that is fine if she does not then "Sionara" you will be better investing these energy in to someone else that will be happy to be with you

I am routing for you Noas

Start walking there is a long journey ahead 

Mike


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you read MMSLP yet? If you haven't you have no idea what is going on here.


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## Mike11 (Aug 25, 2011)

Chaparral said:


> Have you read MMSLP yet? If you haven't you have no idea what is going on here.


This is like the Bible for being a man, this need to be part of High school curriculum for Boys and Young male adults, and although I myself was implementing part of it already before actually reading it with in my own relationship with my wife it was nevertheless an eye opener and a hard realization of my situation, 

My wife would have left long time ago had I not read it and fully understood it


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks everyone. I did read MMSl and began working on my sex rank about 8 weeks ago. 
She likes the improvements physical wise. She likes the new ME as in not having attitudes and showing her affection, listening....no longer neglecting her. It is the emotional detachment that has us both concerned. We know it is early, but this is what scares her ...and me
I do not discuss anything with BFF that I do not want wife to hear. BFF usually asks how we are when I see her husband. I tell her we are making progress. She then starts on her discussion.
W co-workers know me (like me) just from years of visits as I took her supper and even fed them at times.

The rest is going to be hard. Bare with me as I try to go about this. Having my youngest son at home and my animals makes it tougher than I thought.

I will start rereading MMSL tonight


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## MrsVain (Feb 1, 2009)

Thundarr said:


> noas, the following things are red flags to how you're thinking and it's a clear path to ensuring she doesn't realize what she's actually losing.
> 1. proclamations of being good friends no matter what.
> 2. fighting for her love even though she thinks she doesn't want you are not good signs.
> 
> Draw those lines in the sand if you have to but they are signs that you're taking emotional scraps and that you aren't giving yourself enough worth. At least that's the psychological effect it has on how she views you. Think about it, she has nothing to lose. You'll still fight to keep her if she changes her mind and you'll be her friend if she doesn't. That's the exact opposite things to do if you want her to feel like she's losing something special. You have to place the value on yourself. That's attractive. Groveling for whatever relationship you can get is the worst thing you can do if you want to keep her.


Very helpful for me. I have been doing this for probably the last 8 years and i am finally done. have been scared of getting the divorce but this has helped me, opened my eyes if you will. in fact i have snipped it and have it as my wall paper to keep me on the path.

thank you.


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## Mike11 (Aug 25, 2011)

Well Done noas first steps are hard, the world as you know it is falling a part and it is devastating to see that the woman you invested so much of your life do not want to be with you anymore, I know, I have been there with a long term girlfriend that I had 26 Years ago and I heard that from my wife after 23 years of marriage, the sinking feeling in your gut and the despair and devastation when you hear these words is indescribable, 

I know it is hard but you must act almost opposite from what your logic is telling you right now, and although you know your wife better then every one here on the internet board, we all have been in one way or another in the same position as you are, thread carefully, you have at your disposal a collective experience of many here to learn from and we are here for support 

Stay Strong 

Mike


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## Mike11 (Aug 25, 2011)

On the BFF thing, please don't get fooled by this, no matter what you have done in the past, her allegiance is not with you but with your wife, listen carefully to what she says and watch her demeanor she already said that she will support your wife in every decision so she is NOT you allay , I would be very careful of her and her husband at this time


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I would not give bff any more optimistic progress reports. Think of her as a spy. One with a possible agenda. You might even give her some info to see how it comes back from your wife. As in, "I think my wife may just be looking for another man and doesn't want to admit it.". The see if your wife brings this up.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks Mike. 
Laundry days I do not see her more than 20-30 mins. if i do see her.
I do the house stuff because it is my family home. As long as she is working on relationship i have allowed her to stay. if she files for divorce or if separation becomes legal, she has 30 days to move.

Here is what I dont understand.
On D day she was dead set on leaving and never looking back.
After we talked for 14 hours over 2 days, no arguing or yelling, lots of tears...she decided to stay and work things out.
She smiles more now than she has in years with me, we can laugh and stuff Enjoy each others company. I know it is like a second honeymoon. I get that. Her desires for me sexually are lower now but that is because she was doing sex to please me before. We have sex about 2-3 times a month. Last time was 8/2
I still have total free access to her body. She returns the physical touches as well, not as much though. Deep passionate kisses and lots of flirting. She says this is her way of showing me she deeply cares for me. To me this is signs of affection.
I know she is struggling with her feelings. At least she is back to talking with God and praying.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> I would not give bff any more optimistic progress reports. Think of her as a spy. One with a possible agenda. You might even give her some info to see how it comes back from your wife. As in, "I think my wife may just be looking for another man and doesn't want to admit it.". The see if your wife brings this up.


You know I actually thought of doing this the other day.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> You know I actually thought of doing this the other day.


Do it.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I agree with the other poster also. You should distance yourself. Do your own laundry, somewhere else. If she asks, tell her it was fun going to the laundramat, there were a lot of people there. You should not mow her lawn. You unintentionaly rubbed her face in it. Of course she was rubbing your face in in he fact she was getting so one else to mow it and did not need you to do it.

Force yourself to go to a gym. Hell, go get a tan, get some completely new clothes, haircut. Do you have facebook, put your status as separated.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Grow a goattee. Lol


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## Iver (Mar 8, 2013)

noas55,

Good advice here - I don't know based on what you've written which way the wind is blowing, but I have to tell you your situation is very precarious.

By that I mean far too much control is in the hands of your wife. She is driving the relationship and you are in the passenger seat going where she wants to go.

Unfortunately it takes two to make a relationship work - if she checks out (if she hasn't already and all this is just a plan to slowly divorce you) there ain't much you can really do about it.

Re-read MMSL. 

I would seriously consider getting a VAR where she makes calls.
This might help clear things up if you hear her yaking with her BFF..

I don't recall but have either of you contacted a lawyer? You will need to do this if this continues just to avoid being potentially blindsided. (don't tell me she would never do that.)

On the upside you are still in the ring and the fight is still in progress...maybe this time next year you'll be weighing in at 175with a 1-0 record...

Good Luck.


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## Mike11 (Aug 25, 2011)

noas55 said:


> Thanks Mike.
> Laundry days I do not see her more than 20-30 mins. if i do see her.
> I do the house stuff because it is my family home. As long as she is working on relationship i have allowed her to stay. if she files for divorce or if separation becomes legal, she has 30 days to move.
> 
> ...





Noas, you have to understand how your wife mind is working, She is Alpha by your own statement,she was dead set to leave, as long time ago she had already written you off and checked out from the marriage

She has decided to leave, in the mean time you had your 14 hour discussions, you probably made some promises to her for change (I don't want to think you "begged" her for a second chance I hope you did not), the rational for her at that moment was that you are leaving home in any case, and she is going to get the "space" she claims she wants, she is in a win win situation here.

My strong guess at this point would be that she had rationalized this as "I got what I want he is out of the house" may be not fully for now but I will get there eventually

Now she is scared and exited at the same time, she is scared to lose the support system you offered, the stability and security will not be there, so this is perfect scenario for her, Noas wants to work it out, leaves home and I get to be "trying" the single life with the so much needed support from Noas in the mean time, perfect rational if you ask me, 

No the sex part, if your wife is Alpha type female in many cases woman are capable in separating sex from the emotional aspect of it, Many woman has the ability to have sex exactly like men do, without the emotional attachments and the bond that is so important, your wife may as well be like that, (if you have read MMSLP it is was written there as well) She is capable of enjoying the sex with you even tough she is emotionally disconnected from you and as you stated yourself she is no longer so passionate about sex with you as before 

She is rationalizing in her mind that having sex with you means keeping you around for the "services" and security you provide that is the only rational that I read here 

My wife for example is also an Alpha female but could not disconnect the sexual act from the emotional bond and the result was very very long Drought in that subject ( I am not a cheater and would not consider having sex out of my wedlock) 

she is throwing breadcrumbs to keep you in in my opinion
she is getting her EN met and getting services from you in return for duty sex, we are men thinking with a men's brain in with very simple logic, Woman are much much more complicated and capable in their logic and emotional intelligence 
That is why you don't understand why she is behaving so lovingly in one hand and insisting on separation on the other


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I agree with the VARs, one in her car and one in the house. Way to many folks here have found a completely different story than the one they were hearing in person.

I also think you should let her initiate contact and see how much that drops off. It will also make her wonder why the sudden change and what you are doing for a change.


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## Mike11 (Aug 25, 2011)

Chaparral said:


> I agree with the VARs, one in her car and one in the house. Way to many folks here have found a completely different story than the one they were hearing in person.
> 
> I also think you should let her initiate contact and see how much that drops off. It will also make her wonder why the sudden change and what you are doing for a change.


Do this :iagree: ASAP


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> So any suggestions on kick starting her emotions?
> Do you think the space/time will help?


You've gotten lots of suggestions and some great advice, most recently from Mike11 but you haven't really taken it. Now it sounds like you're having some doubts in your "nice guy" strategy and that's a good thing because, let's face it, up to now your way of handling things really blows.

I'm not going to say anything I haven't said before but I'll provide a few more examples of how you continue to be your own worst enemy. Perhaps something will suddenly click and the lightbulb will come on and you'll figure it out. Maybe it's too late, maybe she's already checked out never to return, maybe you've done too much damage recently or in the past but at least you can give it your best shot. Every day of this weak behavior puts you further in the hole. 

As Mike11 and numerous other posters have said, being weak is unattractive and will not bring her closer, most likely it will push her further away. When you seek validation, when you let her call the shots and make the decisions about spending time together and having sex, that's just WEAK. She needs you to be a strong man and that doesn't mean that you can't be nice. The two things are not mutually exclusive! You can be strong and nice at the same time. 



noas55 said:


> She may ask me to come by in the morning, but maybe not.


Again, you're waiting on her to make the decision. Turn it around. Don't be so available. Learn to say "sorry I can't make it on such and such a day" when she asks you to come over. Don't stay over every time she asks. Find something else to do besides waiting and wondering if you'll "get a chance to see her".



noas55 said:


> I work so she may not make time for me.


Again, she "might fit you in to her schedule" if she so desires. You're not a priority in her life. 



noas55 said:


> I did tell her not to "cookie crumb" me. Wean me off her slowly.


It's WEAK to tell her not to throw you crumbs or wean you off slowly. What you're really saying is "do you really want me or are you just letting me down slowly". I know you want to know. Too freaking bad, you'll just have to wait it out. Stop asking her. Otherwise the answer will ultimately be "Yes I'm dumping you".



noas55 said:


> She said she wan't. She was just ready to move onto the next phase of the separation (space & time alone) and hopefully she can find her feelings for me.


She's giving you reassurances. That's BAD. A strong man doesn't need reassurances. She doesn't want to HAVE to give you reassurances. 



noas55 said:


> I reminded her of our agreements and that if I ever thought they were being abused, I would speak to her and she must make changes ASAP or I would leave.


Ultimatums are bad enough. In your case they're meaningless. If she's got half a brain she knows you aren't going anywhere until SHE says so. 
. 


noas55 said:


> She has even stated that not being IN LOVE is not the deal breaker. She wants me to not regress.


She's calling all the shots, telling you what behavior she expects in order to continue to see you. That's WEAK. I get that you want to be "nice" and not continue your old "bad behavior". You know what you have to change about yourself. So do it. But stop asking her about it.



noas55 said:


> She says she is still working on saving our marriage, does want us to work out, and is confused on her emotions part and has no clue on what to do about it.


More reassurances from her to you. BAD.



noas55 said:


> She promised we would seek whatever counseling we can do and we will give it a good go before any talks of permanent separation is mentioned.


Promises, reassurances, etc. Again, you don't want her to be saying these things. You want her to realize you don't want or need these reassurances because you are a strong independent man. I know, you really DO need those reassurances. But you gotta fake it. Or you will surely lose.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Move back in immediately.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

wilderness said:


> Move back in immediately.


Tomorrow.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

What a day! Note that all this has taken place after this morning's post. She had no clue as to what was going on in our discussions.

I stayed last night at home while Ashli worked. Around midnight she asked for food. I got a huge smile and obvious appreciation for getting her food. They either bring it or have to fetch food on her shift. It felt great to see that smile! Got a big kiss and a long good hug. We texted a little after that. She reiterated it was good to see me and she was appreciate of my getting out at midnight to bring her food. I said thanks, but remember I have never had an issue bringing my wife food. She said she understood and that she would remember that.

She came home and slept in my arms peacefully.
I went shopping for both of us and took care of our cars. This was all planned so our date day would not be tied up.

Before we started date day, I told her I was nervous about talk. I also told her no more vague or cryptic talk. I only wanted straight answers for now on. She agreed and apologized for her way of handling dialogue between us. I told her that I drew the line on any lies. It would crush me, but would walk away from her and our friendship if any lies came up from this point on. She seemed upset that I felt she may have lied to me. I reminded her she dumped me therefore technically she is the enemy. She said she could understand that. She promised no lies and she did not want to hurt me in any way. Hugs and kisses and off we go!

After we ate lunch we went to park so she could talk to me as she requested. She said we had 2 things to talk about 1) my aggression issues in public in the past and how it hurt her and the kids. (I would blow up on people if I felt wronged in the slightest way in the past - this still bugged her after 15 years. Never was discussed before today). I explained my theory on what triggered it all and asked her to forgive me. I was forgiven. She then forgave me for all my past transgressions! WOW! I cried I was so happy and relieved. 
She told me, 4 days ago she realized she could not think of one thing except that one complaint after hours of writing, praying, and thinking. Even at that moment she could not think of one. That was when she knew she had forgiven me. Thank you Lord Jesus! I told her if any do come up and she has ill feelings, talk to me so we can get past them. She agreed.
2) The trust issue is about gone, but there is lots of room for improvement. She does believe the changes are real and have stuck. She loves the new ME and feels she can love this man forever.

She is concerned about how slow her emotions are progressing compared to everything else. There is not one area that has improved in her eyes EXCEPT the slow development of her feelings. I told her I felt the emotions would grow faster now that I am forgiven, plus she needed to express herself. If you don’t it can’t grow. Sex is another issue we talked about with same results. Use it. I also reminded her how she may not have been in mood in past, but I could get her that way if she let me. She agreed. Hope these changes soon. She does want more sex, but she just has not had the desire.

God is showing her how we are soulmates. I may not know what she is doing and I can text or call and say something that meets who thoughts.. I talk about stuff she is writing or just wrote in her journal. She still agrees that God has big plans for us. Her thought is different, but same. She does believe God wants us together.

Lot of talking, not much relaxing time. We miss the relaxing & cuddling time. We even miss the hot passionate moments, but we agree the progress was very important. Began necking around 7pm. She enjoyed it and I believe it was getting to her. I touched her cleavage and she took in a deep breath at one point. Lots of obvious excitement from her.
The plan was I leave at 6 and she go to BFF for evening. She would call me later tonight. BFF was not ready for her so we went and ate and cuddled on couch.
At 9pm I got signal it was time to go. Her mother had called and W ignored it, twice before 9. She wanted to call her back and get ready for BFF if she went over for visit. I got 3 extra hours thanks to God. Funny thing was we joked about that possibly happening around 6pm.  
Before I left, she held my hands and told me to not be despondent. All this was a good thing. I agree. Just going to be a hard 2 weeks.
Now the kicker on the space issue. Never discussed at all until I was about to leave. She told me she is not wanting me to stay away days on end. She is only asking for 1 if not 2-3 days in a row sometimes. She does not think it will be required too long. Just time to process have quiet time, and moments of peace. She wants me to call on those days too. She wants me to know that she thinks of me constantly and in good ways now. It has been this way for about 3-4 weeks. She thinks of the separation, how she does not want to lose me, but make the marriage better. She still has doubts due to her fears of us being back in this situation later, but they are subsiding.but she is not walking or quitting the marriage. She wants us in counseling not just for me, but her too.
She says she is amazed by how far we have progressed in 9 weeks. She believes major changes will happen in the next 2-3 months as well.
I will see her tomorrow since day was not a real date day. Her request!
Since she works next Monday we have made next Sunday night our date night. I get to make the plans!


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Force yourself to go to a gym. Hell, go get a tan, get some completely new clothes, haircut. Do you have facebook, put your status as separated.


Already going to gym, got new clothes and stuff. Like I stated earlier, my sex ranking has improved and it is doing what it is suppose to do. She is responding to it. She even gets mad when we eat because I have reduced portions down to below her level. I know this makes her nervous. She says I am not eating right. I get 1500-2000 calories and all the nutrients. She knows this. She is concerned I look better than her.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Iver said:


> noas55,
> 
> Good advice here - I don't know based on what you've written which way the wind is blowing, but I have to tell you your situation is very precarious.
> *It is going better after this evening.*
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> As Mike11 and numerous other posters have said, being weak is unattractive and will not bring her closer, most likely it will push her further away. When you seek validation, when you let her call the shots and make the decisions about spending time together and having sex, that's just WEAK. She needs you to be a strong man and that doesn't mean that you can't be nice. The two things are not mutually exclusive! You can be strong and nice at the same time.
> * I am being told to not contact her, but let her contact me. For me to see her she must call the shots to let me know when she is available. Sex is not her call per se. My wife does not think I am weak. She knows I am a strong man. She likes that I show my emotion, needs, and desires. She does not like macho men and never has (These are her words over the weeks and years) *
> 
> 
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Move back in immediately.


I wish it could be. We have seen each other every day for 9 weeks but one. I believe the time together even as it is, has helped her more than she even is aware of.
In the beginning she wanted space in the amount of 5-6 days a week to start and possibly into weeks. Now that is not the case. Just 1 or 2 days at a time. 3 if it is due to work related issues which are rare.
She does not want more than that. She does not expect it to be like that too long. As the progress grows, she is making changes to her original and altered rules/desires. All have actually been in my favor.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Well that was a big turnaround. You went from doubting what was going on with your situation to this euphoria that she agreed with what you said about her vagueness.

Your line about her getting upset when you told her you felt she lied to you got my attention. You see, when I would ask my stbxh if he was lying to me he would get very defensive and swear he'd never lie to me. All I can say is "yeah,right (eye roll)". 

People who do not tell the truth tend to get very defensive when they are questioned about telling lies. It doesn't matter what kind lie they're being questioned about either, outright lie or lie by omission. 

Be careful. Oh and one question, is it possible she has access to this forum and is reading this thread?


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

noas55 said:


> I wish it could be. We have seen each other every day for 9 weeks but one. I believe the time together even as it is, has helped her more than she even is aware of.
> In the beginning she wanted space in the amount of 5-6 days a week to start and possibly into weeks. Now that is not the case. Just 1 or 2 days at a time. 3 if it is due to work related issues which are rare.
> She does not want more than that. She does not expect it to be like that too long. As the progress grows, she is making changes to her original and altered rules/desires. All have actually been in my favor.


My friend, I can't tell you how wrong I think you are in this type of thinking. She lies to you, cheats on you, wrecks your marriage, hurts your children, and you are worried about what she wants and what she thinks is best?

Who cares what she wants? If anything, it's been proven that what she wants is a clear indicator of what shouldn't be done.

I don't see much progress here and I think you are fooling yourself. Progress would be begging you to forgive her and owning her mistakes. That's not happening.

Take your life back. Move back in immediately. Today.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Before I left, she held my hands and told me to not be despondent. All this was a good thing. I agree.


If she's holding your hands and telling you not to be despondent, then you are coming off as despondent and she feels the need to reassure you, and that's BAD. Not only do you not see that it's BAD but you think it's GOOD. You could not possibly be more wrong. 



noas55 said:


> I am cutting visits and calls short and not leaving it to her to say enough. I have not denied her access to me yet, but even cutting things short is getting the "what, why" thought process going in her.


You certainly are NOT cutting visits short and you ARE leaving it to her to say "enough".

Look here:



noas55 said:


> The plan was I leave at 6 and she go to BFF for evening.


That was HER plan. If it was up to you, you'd stay the night and she wouldn't go over her friends house. She knows it, you know it, everyone knows it. She's calling all the shots.



noas55 said:


> At 9pm I got signal it was time to go.


She gave you the signal to go, so you left. Her choice, not yours. Sure, she didn't actually say "it's time to leave" but that doesn't matter. You overstayed your welcome. Again. Next time leave before any signals or whatever. Leave before she wants you to or expects you to. Build mystery, build attraction. 



noas55 said:


> You must have misunderstood. It was not asking. It was a direct statement of DO NOT DO IT. Part of lying hard line.


Whether there's a question mark at the end or not, you are still requesting answers, and validation because you REEK of insecurity. Saying "do not give me crumbs, do not let me down easily!' is the SAME thing as asking 'Are you giving me crumbs, are you dumping me?". I think deep down you know this, at this point we're playing around with pronunciation, it's almost silly.



noas55 said:


> Part of the reassurances are coming due to the vague answers she has given over the 9 weeks. Some others are what she says in discussions


What does this even mean? You acknowledge she's reassuring you. So you think that's ok that she reassures you because her answers have been vague? Forget the damn answers, I told you once I told you 10x when you seek answers you come across as weak and needy and yet here you are saying you need reassurances and definite answers. You sir, are ruining any chance of successful reconcilation with each passing day. 

What's worse is that you have yourself convinced that you're being strong because you aren't phrasing your words in the form of a question and you are getting better at realizing when she wants you to leave the house without her actually saying it.



noas55 said:


> I may not want her to tell me, but if she is saying them in her answer or statements, how do I control that?


Stop asking her for validation. Look here:



noas55 said:


> I also told her no more vague or cryptic talk. I only wanted straight answers for now on.


If you tell her you "want straight answers" then you are obviously asking questions and requesting validation, which is weak. 

Look man, from where I sit you've got a wife who hasn't yet completely checked out. Your strategy has been questionable from the very start, in direct opposition to great advice given by seasoned posters who have a clearer picture because their heads aren't swirling with fear and emotion like yours is.

You can continue to act like her freaking puppy dog and ask questions without asking and letting her determine when you'll visit and how long you'll stay and how many days in between visits you will have to wait, and she'll eventually tire of the game and you won't have any options left.

Or you can face the fact that this woman who you obviously love is halfway out of your life or more, and that doing everything she says is NOT an effective way to reach your rapidly fading goal of getting her back in your life.

At this point I don't have anything else to add, I've repeated myself ad nauseium about how to get tough and give her a reason to stop her silly scheduling games and all that, and while you seem to accept and agree with some of the advice given, you are still doing the same exact thing while sort of twisting it around in your mind to fool yourself into thinking you're actually making progress.

For your sake I hope your prayers are answered because you're not going to get there on your own.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

noas55 said:


> Spent some time with W today. Good day overall considering her cramps were bad. Lots of affectionate touches and kisses from her even though she felt bad.
> I finally got a straight answer from her after 7 weeks on why separation is so important for her. Trust issues are there, but they appear to be dying out as her heart is taking over.
> Pretty much as I expected and guessed, but with a little more thought in it.
> Wants to see if she can do it on her own, w/o me. Not for another man, but to prove to herself she can do it. In the same process she will prove to me I am not needed for her survival. She does not want to lose me and knows I could walk away.
> ...



I just reread this post concerning the separation. Please read and reread her reasoning behind why she wants a separation. It is totally, completely, and in all other ways, absurd.
What is this nonsense about you 'regressing'?

Please, sir, tell me that you don't accept this crap? She has an affair and destroys your life and puts your families mental stability at risk, and she needs to separate in order to evaluate whether or not _you_ regress? You have to be kidding me. This would be hysterical if it weren't so sad.

Here is my advice, and not only do I stand by it, I can pretty much guarantee that if you don't follow at least some of it, you will regret it until the day you die.

1. Move back in immediately. TODAY.
2. Refuse to take responsibility for her actions moving forward.
3. Don't do a darn thing for her until she starts being accountable for what she's done and changing her behavior. No money, no fixing anything, no anything!

Take your life back!!!!!!!!! This is painful to watch.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

wilderness said:


> She has an affair


I must have missed the post where he said she had an affair.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

lenzi said:


> I must have missed the post where he said she had an affair.


First post:
*
Never any cheating (both agree) BUT she has a female friend for over 5 years and I do believe she has developed an emotional affair with her. This girl complain if she cant see my wife once a week. My wife would rather spend time with her than me.*


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Right, I totally forgot about the EA (or more) with the best friend who she's always leaving him to go spend time with.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

lenzi said:


> Right, I totally forgot about the EA (or more) with the best friend who she's always leaving him to go spend time with.


I wonder if that best friend calls up to find out if it's ok to come over and then makes sure she leaves when she's supposed to?


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I wonder if that best friend calls up to find out if it's ok to come over and then makes sure she leaves when she's supposed to?


Seriously doubt it.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

smallsteps said:


> Well that was a big turnaround. You went from doubting what was going on with your situation to this euphoria that she agreed with what you said about her vagueness.
> 
> * The happiness was over the whole day. Being forgiven, us talking and such.*
> 
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> My friend, I can't tell you how wrong I think you are in this type of thinking. She lies to you, cheats on you, wrecks your marriage, hurts your children, and you are worried about what she wants and what she thinks is best?
> * EA: yes, but that has ended. She has never cheated physically as far as anyone knows. VAR after 9 weeks still shows nothing going on. Everything she says to me is pretty much the same when she is talking on her phone or with her bag around. The other stuff she did, as we are working on things, I am forgiving her for what damage has occurred *
> 
> Who cares what she wants? If anything, it's been proven that what she wants is a clear indicator of what shouldn't be done.
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Quote:
Originally Posted by noas55 View Post
I am cutting visits and calls short and not leaving it to her to say enough. I have not denied her access to me yet, but even cutting things short is getting the "what, why" thought process going in her.:Quote

You certainly are NOT cutting visits short and you ARE leaving it to her to say "enough".
*If I leave before she asks or we leave together, I am cutting visit short. If we are on phone and I tell her I need to go, that is me not her. In the past she would tell me it was time. That is what i was saying. 
Today I even told her I would not see her tomorrow. If she wanted me to come by, call and I would come by if I haven't made plans*



Quote:
Originally Posted by noas55 View Post
The plan was I leave at 6 and she go to BFF for evening.:QUOTE
That was HER plan. If it was up to you, you'd stay the night and she wouldn't go over her friends house. She knows it, you know it, everyone knows it. She's calling all the shots.
*You are wrong. I suggested she go to friends on our date night the prior day, Sunday. I did offer to come back later if she wanted; just call. She did go but it was late so she asked me to stay at apt so she could sleep. Since she did not leave until 9, SHE ASKED me to stay later yesterday until 9*

Quote:
Originally Posted by noas55 View Post
At 9pm I got signal it was time to go. :Quote
She gave you the signal to go, so you left. Her choice, not yours. Sure, she didn't actually say "it's time to leave" but that doesn't matter. You overstayed your welcome. Again. Next time leave before any signals or whatever. Leave before she wants you to or expects you to. Build mystery, build attraction. 
* Since she asked me to stay until she heard from BFF I did stay. We had discussed that if BFF didn't call I might stay the night so we enjoyed our time. She got the calls from her mother and then a text from BFF. That was where the signal came about.*

Quote:
Originally Posted by noas55 View Post
Part of the reassurances are coming due to the vague answers she has given over the 9 weeks. Some others are what she says in discussions :Quote

What does this even mean? You acknowledge she's reassuring you. So you think that's ok that she reassures you because her answers have been vague? Forget the damn answers, I told you once I told you 10x when you seek answers you come across as weak and needy and yet here you are saying you need reassurances and definite answers. You sir, are ruining any chance of successful reconcilation with each passing day. 

*The reassurrances are her talking or as we talk. She is talking straight forward and not vague like she was. Therefore she was correcting her vague answers with straight answers
*


Quote:
Originally Posted by noas55 View Post
I also told her no more vague or cryptic talk. I only wanted straight answers for now on.
If you tell her you "want straight answers" then you are obviously asking questions and requesting validation, which is weak. 
*We are asking each other questions and talking out things. 25 years is a long time and a whole hell of a lot of crap has been saved up by her all these years as you all have read. Also part of the healing process is us talking about the grievances and getting over them. I give straight answers. I got the vague answers. That was why I told her this. She has since started being straight. That is where reassurances come. It is not me asking for them. maybe she is saying them to help convince herself.*

Look man, from where I sit you've got a wife who hasn't yet completely checked out. 
*You are correct. At the beginning she was going to walk. Now she is fighting harder than she ever thought she would. She loves the new me and wants to be my wife. *

Your strategy has been questionable from the very start, in direct opposition to great advice given by seasoned posters who have a clearer picture because their heads aren't swirling with fear and emotion like yours is.

*I seeked advise and some did not fit my strategy. It did not set with what I felt my situation needed. Made no sense to neglect a wife who already felt neglected for years. I have utilized a good portion of advise as well. 
Tell me how in 9 weeks a wife who was ready to exit completely and not fight for a 25 year relationship could turn around and now find herself caring more for me and our marriage; more than she has in the past 5 years. She is fighting hard to find her emotions. It is killing her to see that all other aspects of progression are moving forward so fast, but her emotions are moving slower. She is working on herself and fixing her problems so our marriage can be happier. *


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> What is this nonsense about you 'regressing'?
> * That post was made before we made some major discoveries to what ailed our marriage 3 years ago
> 5 years ago we had a bad spell in our marriage. I was having anger issues and was not showing my love. After making good changes for a year w/o her trying she began to try.
> 3 years ago, she went back to school to upgrade her nursing license. I worked 60-70 hrs a week to support her full time schooling and raising a family of 4 and all the stress caused us to drift apart, develop resentment and dislike. We never realized it so we could not correct it. The regression is how I handled the stress with anger, and neglect. She now knows she had the same issues.
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I wonder if that best friend calls up to find out if it's ok to come over and then makes sure she leaves when she's supposed to?


The EA ended after the separation began. W at first denied it, but broke off all visits after the July 4th party and our fight afterwards. She saw it one way, I saw it different. Anyway she chats a little but BFF found a different EA to leach off of and it helped my W break away. W now knows she was too attached. Are they still friends, yes, but not as close as before.
No she does not come by and leave. She is a nurse for a different hospital so her time is just as strict with her job and family.
My neighbors know who comes and goes from my house.

The friendship is still there since they are BFFs, but she knows that she got too close. She knows it was a factor in our relationship problems.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Saw W this morning as planned. 
She was going to surprise me and drop by. That was good because I was at coffee/flower shop. When I told her that after she got her flowers she laughed and said it was a good thing she didn't just drop by then. I asked why. She hesitated for a bit then hugged me saying she would have been jealous. She said she trust me but she would have been jealous and calling me asking where I was.

Did errands and had a good morning. We were cuddling and I told her I had a plan different from hers (I was going to leave at noon then come back tonight if she was on call). I wanted to sleep with her at nap time and spend the afternoon there. I did not ask. She said she would like that and wanted me to stay. 

Just before 11 in the living room, she made a joke and I started to say” That is why you love me.” I caught myself and she noticed it. She asked me what I was about to say. I told her and she instantly replied “I DO LOVE YOU.” This caught me off guard and I told her I knew it was the caring love for me and our marriage years and not her being IN LOVE. She agreed but felt she needed to say it. I told her she could always express her feelings and she should express them so she can grow.

Good afternoon although she felt sick so I cooked. Relaxed and cuddled. They did not call so she had to work. 
I told her I would not see her tomorrow. I would come by if she desired and I had no plans. She said she appreciated all I was doing to accommodate her needs. She also said she would let me know any days she was called off and we would see each other on those nights if I could. "She is really not looking for multiple days away from me. Just some space and time to process all that is happening to her, me, and the marriage."

As we said goodbye at the car, I told her "I LOVE YOU" & she replied "I LOVE YOU TOO."
My stupid ass says, "I know and I knew it was the different love"
She looked me in the yes and said, "I DO LOVE YOU."
I was shocked and remained shocked for a good 30 mins.

During the day she said things like: I am glad you came over....I really enjoyed being with you today...She thanked me several times for cooking the meal for us. I kept saying NO PROBLEM. Then it hit me that she was speaking in LOVE LANGUAGE! I apologized for not picking up on it and then she smiled. "THANK YOU for listening and receiving it" 

To settle some of the reassurance and affirmation comments I have received maybe you are not aware my wife has read 5 LANGUAGES OF LOVE
I think a lot of her reassurances is her giving me affirmation in words which is a big LOVE LANGUAGE for me.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

noas, how do you think you're presenting yourself to her? It sounds so cerebral and emotional at the same time from everything I read and it's really not supposed to be that complicated. Sure relationships take work but they aren't projects and every action and word isn't supposed to be analyzed. 

If she knows you love her and want to be with her then you don't have to say it all of the time. By the way "love for her" means you want her to be happy and "love for yourself" means you want to be proud of your actions and how you let others treat you.

Also, all of the cuddling and affirming and analyzing has to be tiring to you and to her. It seems; I don't know; over the top. I don't even have a logical answer why but something's not right with it.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> If she knows you love her and want to be with her then you don't have to say it all of the time.
> 
> *Part of the problem was I did not tell her I loved her enough. She felt I did not want to be around her most of the time.(Her words) Sometimes she says I can come over or stay if I want to. I respond I want to be with her or something in that area. She likes it right now. She has always wanted and loved the "I Love You"s over the years. I just slowed down because I thought it was tiring for her...guess what? It wasn't. She craves the words and always has.*
> 
> ...


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Noas,

I'm glad you have found a strategy that you feel seems to be working for you and she's responding in a way that you have found to be favorable and you are positive about how things have progressed in the past few months.

If things seem to become stalled, or they seem to be turning around, or her words and actions give you reason to doubt a favorable outcome, please consider some of the advice provided by myself and other posters on this thread.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Noas,
> 
> I'm glad you have found a strategy that you feel seems to be working for you and she's responding in a way that you have found to be favorable and you are positive about how things have progressed in the past few months.
> 
> If things seem to become stalled, or they seem to be turning around, or her words and actions give you reason to doubt a favorable outcome, please consider some of the advice provided by myself and other posters on this thread.


Thanks Lenzi. Believe me when I say I do fear I am making wrong choice in the paths to go down. If things stall, or begin to go bad I will make changes and use even more advice from you and others. 
If she had continued on with her original strategy of leaving... I would have done the HARD 180 and used all the advise given. Things just improved so much and through our talks I could see and hear what she was wanting, needing, and desiring from me now and over the years. Through God and myself, things have improved consistently for 10 weeks. I know we may hit a lull, but I do not see a stall. She is happy to see me now. She wants me around and she tells me she enjoys my company.
Thanks again.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Well today I wasn't suppose to see her (my choice)
She texted and we chatted during my split.
My S21 & I were headed to YMCA to work out. I invited her but she had just woken up. I told her I would love for her to join on other days. 

Lot of thoughts today on my wife. I left her a poem called MY LOVE in her car. She told me by text:  found the poem in the car. Nice surprise. Thank You.
OTHER TEXT: 
ME: I am glad you are able to relax. I know our situation should be well enough soon that normalcy will happen when we are together. Relaxing will be easier.
HER: Getting back to “normal” will take quite some time but we will get there.
ME: I meant it will be working that direction. Together we can get there. We just need to hang on together.
HER: I understand and we will. B
ME: Time is improving everything with our marriage. I can’t think of one thing that has not improved. Can You?
HER: No & that makes me very hopeful for our future.

W texted for me to bring food for her around 11pm. She wanted something different from what she brought. I had placed a pudding cup and a love note in the bag with her food. Got there and it was cold in the halls. She took me to their break room. 2 nurses were there and Ashli introduced me. They politely left to give us a little privacy. They know me as her husband so they know we are separated. We chatted and then she said she was cold. I held her for a few minutes. We stepped away and chatted more. Ashli said “wait a minute.” She then came to me and put her hands under my shirt (to warm them up) yeah right. She kept moving them around until she had rubbed my whole upper torso (I am hairy) and I was squirming due to cold hands. Great playful moment. She kissed me and slowly pulled away. We started to leave. She stopped and chatted some more, we hugged and she placed her nose in my neck line. We kissed and left break room. It was simple but romantic to me. As we walked down hall we chatted like nothing went on. Walked by nurses’ station someone asked something. Wife smiled real big and they laughed. Felt like we got caught. 

Earlier today we set up the next few days. Strange how things are going…wants separation and/or space, but wants me there to. 
Maybe she wants to see me most of days but not all day?
Thurs during split – Fri will be laundry day (my choice) Sat evening dinner. I work all day so she has planned the day with BFF ( My coming over was her suggestion  ) Sun is date night. I hope to stay over through Monday. 
She is now reading LOVE BUSTERS like me. She finished 5 LANGUAGES OF LOVE. She is trying and I am so glad. If she is trying, we have progress, it will be hard for us to fail.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Keep working on your wife falling back in love with you.

And keep working on you.

Your health.
Your physique.
Your sexual attraction.

And enjoy the time you have to yourself.

Read. Listen. Learn.

HM64


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

happyman64 said:


> Keep working on your wife falling back in love with you.
> 
> And keep working on you.
> 
> ...


All of this - and focus on pleasing her much much less.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> All of this - and focus on pleasing her much much less.


I am pleasing her because I love pleasing her. I do understand that I need to slow down on it though. As we grow closer it will slow down. We have actually discussed this as well as how things will be different as we get closer to normalcy.

She is reading the books I am reading now. She understands where we both failed each other and our marriage.

Thanks fore the support Conrad and Happy.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

noas55 said:


> I am pleasing her because I love pleasing her. I do understand that I need to slow down on it though. As we grow closer it will slow down. We have actually discussed this as well as how things will be different as we get closer to normalcy.
> 
> She is reading the books I am reading now. She understands where we both failed each other and our marriage.
> 
> Thanks fore the support Conrad and Happy.


Conrad is right Noas.

I believe that "Absence makes the heart grow fonder".

I have been practicing this with my wife of 22 years for over 28 years.

It works. Believe me it works.

And if she truly loves you she will cherish the time she does get from you.

Now work on yourself.

HM


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> I believe that "Absence makes the heart grow fonder".
> 
> I have been practicing this with my wife of 22 years for over 28 years.
> 
> It works. Believe me it works.


HM, 

Would you care to elaborate on this? Inquiring minds would like to know.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tron said:


> HM,
> 
> Would you care to elaborate on this? Inquiring minds would like to know.


It simply means don't smother.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Conrad said:


> It simply means don't smother.


Nice Guy Exercise #1.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> It simply means don't smother.


Just wondering if going down to my buddy's beach house to fish, play cards and drink whiskey with the guys for the weekend qualifies. 

I haven't done anything like that if I don't know how long.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tron said:


> Just wondering if going down to my buddy's beach house to fish, play cards and drink whiskey with the guys for the weekend qualifies.
> 
> I haven't done anything like that if I don't know how long.


What's she going to be doing?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tron said:


> Just wondering if going down to my buddy's beach house to fish, play cards and drink whiskey with the guys for the weekend qualifies.
> 
> I haven't done anything like that if I don't know how long.


Also, if you were doing this sort of thing every weekend? She'd likely be the one with the user account here.

Having your own interests and your own friends makes you more attractive to her.

Of course, overdoing it can damage things as well.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Conrad said:


> It simply means don't smother.


Exactly.

I will give a few examples.

A. I will ask my wife to go to a movie with me. She says no 99% of the time. It used to bother me.
Now I take one of my nephews with me, one of my daughters with me or I go alone.

I enjoy the movie with or without her.

B. We both work. Every once in a while I will go and make her an appt. for a nail job. It relaxes her. She gets some "Me" time and I get to do things in the house that I do not want her around for like throwing out old clothes (good will). 

Or cleaning a room from top to bottom. Even giving my 3 girls some chores to do and Mommy is not there to save them.

C. Sometimes I will even go meet a friend or coworker for drinks. I invite her but she always says no. Works for me.

The key to giving space to your spouse is getting the things done that you need or want.

It works for me.

HM


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Also, if you were doing this sort of thing every weekend? She'd likely be the one with the user account here.
> 
> Having your own interests and your own friends makes you more attractive to her.
> 
> Of course, overdoing it can damage things as well.


I can see that.

Like HM, I almost always grab a kid or two or three with me and go do something. Very rarely do anything just for myself like this or just with the guys. 

She is going to stay home with the kiddos I suppose. I asked her if she wanted to go with kids, with her sister, BIL, nephew, etc. and I could get them a hotel or rent a house. She said no.

I'm going. 

She gave me the look, so I doubt she will be jumping my bones when I get back.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tron said:


> I can see that.
> 
> Like HM, I almost always grab a kid or two or three with me and go do something. Very rarely do anything just for myself like this or just with the guys.
> 
> ...


You'll live through it.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Guys we always have done some things separate too and still do even now. Lot of times she went to BFF house for afternoon/evening while I worked and then went home to relax. No harm
Sometimes she took river trips with her Gf from work. I stayed home and worked, watched movies at the theater or do what i wanted.
Before D day and during first days of talks, she wanted me to make friends and become more social. I am a very social person at work or IF I want to be. I do not like DRAMA and avoid people due to it.
She now understands that I can do things w/o her and she has backed off on "friends" because she has grown concerned of possible females taking interest in new, better looking, me.

Now if you are saying I am smothering her...believe me she is not complaining. She is eating it up. Probably due to my neglect over the years.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> Guys we always have done some things separate too and still do even now. Lot of times she went to BFF house for afternoon/evening while I worked and then went home to relax. No harm
> Sometimes she took river trips with her Gf from work. I stayed home and worked, watched movies at the theater or do what i wanted.
> Before D day and during first days of talks, she wanted me to make friends and become more social. I am a very social person at work or IF I want to be. I do not like DRAMA and avoid people due to it.
> She now understands that I can do things w/o her and she has backed off on "friends" because she has grown concerned of possible females taking interest in new, better looking, me.
> ...


What do you think she's doing @BFF's house?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

She loved the love note with her food. Funny that she actually through it away accidentally. When I asked her if she got all her stuff out of the bag she mentioned all but the note. I had to break the news that she missed something. She went back to the room and found the note mixed in with the napkins. She now keeps it in her wallet as a reminder She felt bad that she missed it, but she is glad I gave it to her.

Today while I was at home getting ready to take her to brunch discussing my work schedule. I said, "I can't wait until we don't have to work around the schedules like this." She looked at me and stated, " I wish you would not say that." I was puzzled. She said,"You say I cant wait..often & it makes me feel tiny and hurts me because I know this is my fault." I told her sorry I did not realize I said that much.
She said," Look it will take a good while, but we will get through this together. I am not going anywhere. You might get tired of waiting though." I said "As long as there is progress and open communication we will get through this together." 
I feel very hopeful that soon I can say we are in the reconciliation stages.
Major crampy day for her, but we did enjoy the 2 hours we had.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

She loved the love note with her food. Funny that she actually through it away accidentally. When I asked her if she got all her stuff out of the bag she mentioned all but the note. I had to break the news that she missed something. She went back to the room and found the note mixed in with the napkins. She now keeps it in her wallet as a reminder She felt bad that she missed it, but she is glad I gave it to her.

Today while I was at home getting ready to take her to brunch discussing my work schedule. I said, "I can't wait until we don't have to work around the schedules like this." She looked at me and stated, " I wish you would not say that." I was puzzled. She said,"You say I cant wait..often & it makes me feel tiny and hurts me because I know this is my fault." I told her sorry I did not realize I said that much.
She said," Look it will take a good while, but we will get through this together. I am not going anywhere. You might get tired of waiting though." I said "As long as there is progress and open communication we will get through this together." 
I feel very hopeful that soon I can say we are in the reconciliation stages.
Major crampy day for her, but we did enjoy the 2 hours we had.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

What will you do if you stay in this current state of acting like your dating and she wants to make this separation permanent? Would you live this way for the rest of your days or walk away?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Fisherman said:


> What will you do if you stay in this current state of acting like your dating and she wants to make this separation permanent? Would you live this way for the rest of your days or walk away?


Well in a way we are dating. It is not the typical separation because we were able to avoid the nasty part of anger, hatred, and full blown not seeing each other which is typical first stage. Being forced to live together and deal with issues for 8 weeks helped us greatly. The romancing, attention, and my changes is what she desired. Before D day and now.


If she is speaking the truth and I do believe her due to her words, actions & knowing her for 25 years, she does not want a permanent separation. She does want me home. She wants to overcome her fears and that will take time. The trust and other issues have all come down considerably. She is frequently saying home in a year. Her doubts are basically her fears.
1. Going home is the ultimate goal for both of us and we do feel that will happen.
If that fails we will look at the two choices which neither of us want.
2. Permanent Marriage Separation: This would be last ditch effort to save marriage, stay together as best as we can. It would be used simply if she could not overcome her fears no matter what. It would be where my place is where I would go for 1-2 night a week if that. Marriage is complete and normal except for location being permanent, This would be used only if separation was to continue as we deal with her issues.
3. I would leave. Not what i want, but she knows I am a person who needs love and wants to give love. I really do not see this happening. We still love each other deeply. Our Christian values are totally against this. She is in turmoil even now due to her values. God does not like separation unless specific criteria is met.
4. She could leave. She has stated that is not what she wants. I may have not posted this from Monday: The reason for her walking away to never return was not because it was what she wanted. It was all about she felt I could not trust her again and she knew she was hurting me. She wanted a separation to try to get us fixed. She is very excited about the progress and is pushing forward as we begin reconciliation. I know she will begin using this word soon as well.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Well in a way we are dating. It is not the typical separation because we were able to avoid the nasty part of anger, hatred, and full blown not seeing each other which is typical first stage. Being forced to live together and deal with issues for 8 weeks helped us greatly. The romancing, attention, and my changes is what she desired. Before D day and now.
> 
> 
> If she is speaking the truth and I do believe her due to her words, actions & knowing her for 25 years, she does not want a permanent separation. She does want me home. She wants to overcome her fears and that will take time. The trust and other issues have all come down considerably. She is frequently saying home in a year. Her doubts are basically her fears.
> ...


I keep picking up from your comments that every time you bring up getting back together she reacts strongly that it will be a long time. That doesn't sound like you are headed toward being reunited. I don't think God ever intended for a man and wife to be separated, in contrast when we marry we become one with our wife. IMO I think that separation in God's eyes is walking away from the marriage and not to his liking.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Fisherman said:


> I keep picking up from your comments that every time you bring up getting back together she reacts strongly that it will be a long time. That doesn't sound like you are headed toward being reunited. I don't think God ever intended for a man and wife to be separated, in contrast when we marry we become one with our wife. IMO I think that separation in God's eyes is walking away from the marriage and not to his liking.


She is telling me a long time because she does not want me to expect it to be 6 months. She expects within 9-12 months. I figure she is going to use the length of the apt lease to assure herself I will not revert to old ways.
She knows God is unhappy with the separation and with her for going this route. Part of her personal issues. 
She says things like "It will be a long walk but we will get through this together" "I want you home too. It just isn't going to be as quick as you want. This is why it scares me you will get tired of waiting and leave me."


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

noas55 said:


> She is telling me a long time because she does not want me to expect it to be 6 months. She expects within 9-12 months. I figure she is going to use the length of the apt lease to assure herself I will not revert to old ways.
> She knows God is unhappy with the separation and with her for going this route. Part of her personal issues.
> She says things like "It will be a long walk but we will get through this together" "I want you home too. It just isn't going to be as quick as you want. This is why it scares me you will get tired of waiting and leave me."


Might I suggest that while you not put her fears to rest that you will leave her that you continue to improve yourself. She wanted this separation. She has to accept the fears herself.

So improve yourself Both mentally and physically.

That you go out, meet new people, make new friends and enjoy life. And when you are with her, share those accomplishments with her.

Not to make her jealous to make her understand that you are a confident, self assured man with high self esteem.

Embrace your separation and show her how confident you are in your own skin.

In other words Noas, show her what she is missing without you....

Make her miss you and let it be a reminder that the man she married is back in full force and loving life with her or without her.

The choice is hers.

But by your actions she will come to realize that the choice is truly your Noas.

Chew on that my man.

HM


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

NOAA,
The thing that keeps bothering me about your tale is that your wife's insistence of being apart just do not jibe with her other actions or stated goals.

It's like when congress says they want to put more money in our pockets, so then they raise taxes.

She keeps pulling you in, but then she pushes you back and tells you that you are going to be away for longer than you expected.

Kinda like your boss praising your work on Monday, but on Tuesday telling you not to ever expect a raise. Which breaks the contract - he gets what he wants, but you are told you shouldn't expect to get what you want.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

I think she is trying to punish you by pulling you in then pushing you away. And her telling you that she fears you will give up on her is a subtle hint that's what she wants you to do and she will keep this separation going till you have had enough to assuage her guilt. There is a covert thing going on, probably something she and her BFF thought up. I'm with Shaggy, there is something not right about this. It's consistent with her making sure all her coworkers see you two, she can tell them all she made an effort to reconcile, same with your children. That is how I would be feeling.

A woman BS once told me, never underestimate the intelligence of your wife, she is much more than you realize and so many men take that for granted to their detriment.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> She is telling me a long time because she does not want me to expect it to be 6 months. She expects within 9-12 months.


I believe she's telling you a long time because she has no idea what she wants. It's as much of a guess for her as it is for you.



noas55 said:


> This is why it scares me you will get tired of waiting and leave me."


Is it possible that what she's _really_ saying is that she's hoping that if she waits long enough, that you'll decide to leave her so she doesn't have to make that difficult decision herself?


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Move back into your home. Do you really believe that a year apart is going to make things better? That's just nuts.


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## Iver (Mar 8, 2013)

Noas55,

To recap - this could be:

1. A planned slow motion divorce. At the end of a year separation you'll get the ILYBINILWY speech and a "We tried but..."

2. She has no idea what she wants and is winging it. Who knows how it'll turn out.

3. She is 100% legit and after a designated time frame you will be back home. 

I have no idea what the deal actually is here. What I can say for sure is now you need to be taking care of yourself. 

You haven't gone into any details but what is your eating plan (not a diet plan) and fitness routine? (your children can be a real help in working out)

How is your weight loss progressing? I can not stress this enough - lose the weight or lose the marriage. 

Keep your chin up and good luck.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

First time on this old thread.

Dont fear being called a troll. Shamwow and RDMU were called that too so you are in good company.

If you need VAR advice PM me. Im resident VAR goon. Getting one of the bad brands will cost you valuable intel.

Sorry but I have a bad bad feeling about the end of this... And I hope Im wrong.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> NOAA,
> The thing that keeps bothering me about your tale is that your wife's insistence of being apart just do not jibe with her other actions or stated goals.
> .


I truly do not know what the separation is for. I think she is dealing with a MLC and does not understand the DRAW that it is doing on her. Making her feel certain ways. It is not about another man or love. She is also concerned about me coming home and we end back up at the point of separation if either regress. This is the BIG FEAR.
She hates me being away from home (her words) Her fears are overriding any other thing right now. The trust issues are about 80% covered. She is very happy with all changes going on. She needs to see that they are sticking so to speak.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Fisherman said:


> I think she is trying to punish you by pulling you in then pushing you away. And her telling you that she fears you will give up on her is a subtle hint that's what she wants you to do and she will keep this separation going till you have had enough to assuage her guilt. There is a covert thing going on, probably something she and her BFF thought up. I'm with Shaggy, there is something not right about this. It's consistent with her making sure all her coworkers see you two, she can tell them all she made an effort to reconcile, same with your children. That is how I would be feeling.
> 
> A woman BS once told me, never underestimate the intelligence of your wife, she is much more than you realize and so many men take that for granted to their detriment.


I agree on never underestimating their intelligence.
Your theory is part of my fears. She does not make plans for me to be seen at the hospital. I notice she does not take or I offer to bring food to her. It is not often that I get to. Something I have been doing for 12 years. I think she has called me to get food maybe 10 times throughout the years.
If she is doing a covert deal, God knows and he will not be happy. She knows this. 
Although it is a fear, I do not think she will do it this way. She is a strong woman. I really think she is confused. After today I know she is working hard to repair marriage, she is scared, and she knows she caused this mess.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> I believe she's telling you a long time because she has no idea what she wants. It's as much of a guess for her as it is for you.
> *She wants marriage to work. She is confused on other issues though. So yes I agree with you *
> 
> 
> Is it possible that what she's really saying is that she's hoping that if she waits long enough, that you'll decide to leave her so she doesn't have to make that difficult decision herself?


I don't think so. If that is the case, she has a long time to wait unless she sabotages it but making progress stall. The agreement before either walks is LOTS of various counseling which will take a long time.
Her Christian views do not accept what she is doing. If she pulled such a stunt it would be hard for herself to see an entry into Heaven. Divorce and separation are big no-nos to God and she knows it.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Move back into your home. Do you really believe that a year apart is going to make things better? That's just nuts.


Everybody keeps telling me this. I want to move back in, BUT I know my wife is not ready for that. If I did such a thing, it would ruin the progress we have made, destroy the trust and I would bet it would shut her down entirely.
I do not want to be out a year, I am praying and hoping for 6-9 months range at longest. We have discussed if we get to the point before lease my S19 will move to apt


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Long day. Chatted with wife this morning briefly and saw her for 90 mins on split. First hour was unpleasant but needed. She had been saying some things to me this week that hurt me and I wanted it stopped.
She cried because she hurt me and was unaware of how it made me feel. Nothing malicious, but treating me w/o respect by claiming she was doing something w/o consulting me. It was unnecessary because I had been allowing her to do it for years.
Found out that part of her issues stemmed from this issue. So here it is:
In the past she would go out for the night to BFF or bar with the girls. She would tell me. I say ok...all good. Later she comes in, being late by over an hour or more. I would be upset. 
Sometimes she would get ride to her BFFs kid's BB tourny. I expect her home by 5 and it is 8 or 9pm before she gets in. No way home. I get mad because she put herself in that position. Not saying I am right. Just saying what happened.
Anyway she is afraid i will resort to that... anger issues is what she is fearing.
I told her yes in the past i was an ass, but these last 2 months I have been cool. Even when her BFF used her as a babysitter and screwed her over for 2 hours. I was cool and did not blame her. Just another trust issue I will defeat.
Last hour was good. had supper and chatted. As we were preparing to go to work she said, "You are very important to me, Do not give up on me.
I said, " I will not give up as long as you don't give up and keep working forward." She smiled and gave me a huge hug.

After work I went home and did laundry for us. She has 2 days off and I work.
Tomorrow she will spend day at BFF and I will come over for dinner after work
Sunday is date night after I get off work 

We were talking and I asked what changed her mind on us dating. Remember 10 weeks ago on D day week she said no dates for a long time. She said she was scared and was not sure she wanted to do anything with me. As trust and love grew, it became easier for her to accept that she wanted to go out with me.
She still tears up when speaking of how she treated or spoke to me back then.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Iver said:


> Noas55,
> 
> To recap - this could be:
> 
> ...


I am eating well. 1200-1800 calories. No junk, 2-3 beers or vodka drink at night to help sleep. vitamins, testosterone, fish oil pills.
I have settled weight at 233 pounds (52 pound loss) for one week then I will begin losing 5-7 pounds for a few months.
She likes the new physical and new me.

Here is something I want your opinion on my friends, especially those thinking she is looking to leave.

She is paying for all medical coverage on her insurance including deductibles. You know I need to see doc over ED issue. I can have intercourse 80% of time, but we want to make sure what issue is and fix it. Any way...she has in her plans to pay for all the $2000 deductibles and excess fees that insurance does not pay for. Does that really sound like a wife who is planning on leaving?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> First time on this old thread.
> 
> Dont fear being called a troll. Shamwow and RDMU were called that too so you are in good company.
> 
> ...


Welcome aboard! Thanks for comment on troll issue. Nice to be in good company 
VAR I am using are top of the line. I don't know names, but i have her sset up well and nothing unusual has been said. even have moved one around when she went to YMCA for a day just in case. I truely do not believe there is an affair and I do believe what she is saying to me because it is consistent. Does that mean I cant be screwed? Heck no! She has fooled me before...like 10 weeks ago. 
I do believe she is trying to save marriage with me.
All I can do is pray and do all I can to save my marriage.The rest is in God's hands ..and hers. We both believe God wants us together. That is a big deal there.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

noas55 said:


> I don't think so. If that is the case, she has a long time to wait unless she sabotages it but making progress stall. The agreement before either walks is LOTS of various counseling which will take a long time.
> Her Christian views do not accept what she is doing. If she pulled such a stunt it would be hard for herself to see an entry into Heaven. Divorce and separation are big no-nos to God and she knows it.


Listen, for being a Christian your not really understanding what it takes to get into heaven. Anybody can get into heaven if they accept Jesus Christ as their savior, its called grace. It is not good works or bad behavior that gets you in or keeps you out of heaven. It has nothing to do with it. She can divorce you and as long as she still believes in Christ she will get there. She may be feeling guilty but she should know that it does not affect her salvation. I don't think thats a deterrent.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You have to be forgiven to get into heaven. Committing adultery, abandoning a spouse cannot be forgiven unless its made right.

A person who divorces and remarries is in a state of adultery, unless the divorce was because of adultery.

At least hats how it has been explained to me.

Also, one has to be forgiven by the betrayed spouse and taken back or stay single.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Fisherman said:


> Listen, for being a Christian your not really understanding what it takes to get into heaven. Anybody can get into heaven if they accept Jesus Christ as their savior, its called grace. It is not good works or bad behavior that gets you in or keeps you out of heaven. It has nothing to do with it. She can divorce you and as long as she still believes in Christ she will get there. She may be feeling guilty but she should know that it does not affect her salvation. I don't think thats a deterrent.


We do understand about the Blood of Christ. We are Baptist/ Southern Baptist. It will not keep hr from Heaven, but God made it clear that He hates divorce or separation. He laid the rules on when He would accept it. This is a big deal for us.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> You have to be forgiven to get into heaven. Committing adultery, abandoning a spouse cannot be forgiven unless its made right.
> 
> A person who divorces and remarries is in a state of adultery, unless the divorce was because of adultery.
> 
> ...


You are correct CHAP. This is our beliefs as well. T
The love and trust was hurt badly by my neglect. In her words, the trust is growing daily, the love is moving slower. The problem is she has separated her love into 2 categories... Love for our relationship and Love for me. This is what she is working on. She loves me. She just needs to fix her views on it. As we grow closer I pray it will correct itself.
Another problem is her Low sex desire. We know this can be fixed. She does want this fixed as well.
Like she has said, we will do counseling if needed for sure. We both want counseling to better our marriage. 

My beliefs: God would not have us stay together for 24 years in our God Ordained marriage to have us part ways. He does not work that way. I do believe He wants us back together and will make that happen. I do believe He wanted us to be fixed and used her to get the point driven home because she did not know her part of the problems until after D day. The separation was what her Humanistic desires were. It happened and now we are dealing with it. he made us stay together and talk for 8 weeks which i do believe saved my marriage and helped her come back to Him. Now He is working on us. We have the best possible separation. Besides it being a location separation we really see each other close to what we did as married. 

Her Beliefs: She believes God has big plans for us. She believes He does not work that way like me. We had problems and He did a drastic maneuver because I was so lost. She believes God does not want us separated and most definitely not divorced. Divorce is out of the question. never has been there for either of us. She was thinking of permanent separation when she was leaving due to her belief. She did not want to be alone the rest of her life, but she was unhappy with our marriage. She was hoping she could work things out with me down the road. 
Wife also believes God is working miracles on us and our marriage. She has seen them herself. I am thankful because this has made her more confident that I may be right that God is going to put us together for our best years. Like our reward!


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

God has nothing to do with what she is putting you through. She is stringing you along until she finds another man end then she is going to dump you cold. You are nothing but a soft landing pad to her, and you do not even see it. Man I feel sorry for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Talked to W this morning before she went to bed. I told her I missed holding her in bed & I would love to stay tomorrow night after our date night if she was thinking of one night I could stay. 
I said I have no clue if you have different ideas on this matter with dinner tonight and date tomorrow. Just let me know what you want so I can have work clothes ready. If you decide you want me to stay both I will. Just tell me.

She said I have no problem with you staying nights. It would be nice. I want you to stay the nights.

Good to hear she has no problem with me staying the nights. Another progress check point. Before she was yo-yoing between allowing or not.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You mentioned your wife going out with bff and the girls I believe. What do these outings entail and how do you know? How often?
They frequently stay out later than planned? 

Alcohol, dancing?

How long has this been going on?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

BashfulBull said:


> God has nothing to do with what she is putting you through. She is stringing you along until she finds another man end then she is going to dump you cold. You are nothing but a soft landing pad to her, and you do not even see it. Man I feel sorry for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well if you are not a Believer, I can see your point. I would have handled things a lot differently and probably not even have what i have now. 

We are Believers. We let OURSELVES get us in this mess. God is helping us get out of this mess and He will get us back together since that is what He wants. It is all Faith.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> You mentioned your wife going out with bff and the girls I believe. What do these outings entail and how do you know? How often?
> They frequently stay out later than planned?
> Alcohol, dancing?
> How long has this been going on?


Most of time she goes to BFF house and they sit and talk... and smoke. This si where she picked up her social smoking as she dealt with the stress. The BFF has 2 young sons that are like our adoptive kids. Sometimes they do shopping together and stuff. Their relationship is more like "sisters". Sometimes she goes an hour out of town to BFF's parents home and they eat. Good relaxing time. If there are ball games she will go unless it meant we she would be home late.

Most days of visits are on Fri or Sat night due to schedule conflicts. Sometimes they don't see each other for 2-3 weeks.

The all girls night is usually a bar or dinner and movie. If it is a bar she does not dance with any men. Against her beliefs and she does not trust single men at clubs. She will dance with the girls. Maybe 3-5 dances. There is always a certain song they all dance to. Nothing different than men blowing off steam at a club. She does not go to clubs by herself. I did once and did not like it. We both feel it is just looking for trouble and a way to cause marriage problems.
I know this because I have friends who see her and know the girls.
If BFF and her go to club, it is for a few hours and she has 2 drinks max. If she has more she calls me (even arranged that way now) If a nurse gets pulled over for drinking, they are stripped of their nursing license. 

Stay out later than planned is rare. Maybe 4-5 times over the 5 years. Rarer than rare. Usually it is due to the driver. Wife is at their mercy and this is what triggered my anger. Putting herself in situation that could have been prevented.

BFF and W have been friends for 5 years. That is not correlating with our issues from 5 years ago. Their friendship began after we began our problems. They were co-workers then.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Quite frankly, I do not believe married partners should go out drinking and dancing without their spouse. I have seen this turn into an epic fail over and over ad nauseum. As a matter if fact, I know one couple that is still together that did GNOs and that is over the last forty years.

Does this mean you do not take her dancing?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> Most of time she goes to BFF house and they sit and talk... and smoke. This si where she picked up her social smoking as she dealt with the stress. The BFF has 2 young sons that are like our adoptive kids. Sometimes they do shopping together and stuff. Their relationship is more like "sisters". Sometimes she goes an hour out of town to BFF's parents home and they eat. Good relaxing time. If there are ball games she will go unless it meant we she would be home late.
> 
> Most days of visits are on Fri or Sat night due to schedule conflicts. Sometimes they don't see each other for 2-3 weeks.
> 
> ...


Difficult to catalogue all the red flags in these paragraphs.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Difficult to catalogue all the red flags in these paragraphs.


:FIREdevil:


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Quite frankly, I do not believe married partners should go out drinking and dancing without their spouse. I have seen this turn into an epic fail over and over ad nauseum. As a matter if fact, I know one couple that is still together that did GNOs and that is over the last forty years.
> 
> Does this mean you do not take her dancing?


Exactly. I did not take her dancing due tI was fat and I felt i would embarrass her. I did not realize this until after I began working on changing me. She knows this now and understands.
She is not a party-er or clubber. She goes with BFF once or twice a year when BFF has had a fight with her hubby. They go from 10 or 11 till about 1. She always let me know when she was headed home. Like I stated though, dancing is with girls in line dancing and stuff. NEVER SLOW DANCES with anyone. I have gone to club a few times in the past with her and we slowed danced. 
I want to now, but she has no desire to go to club. She is not the one to suggest it even with her friends. More a tag along to be with her friends than a want to.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Difficult to catalogue all the red flags in these paragraphs.


Well I am blind and don't see them. Possible you see some because of way something is worded and not the actual way it is(?)


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Her Christian views do not accept what she is doing. If she pulled such a stunt it would be hard for herself to see an entry into Heaven. Divorce and separation are big no-nos to God and she knows it.


Christian's commit adultery and divorce all the time. Regardless of your wife's stated beliefs I would not count on that alone to save your marriage. I think you put way too much emphasis on letting God fix everything. 




noas55 said:


> Talked to W this morning before she went to bed. I told her I missed holding her in bed & I would love to stay tomorrow night after our date night if she was thinking of one night I could stay.
> 
> I said I have no clue if you have different ideas on this matter with dinner tonight and date tomorrow. Just let me know what you want so I can have work clothes ready. If you decide you want me to stay both I will. Just tell me.


This is probably the weakest you've EVER been. Bordering on pathetic. Do you WANT to push her away?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> Well I am blind and don't see them. Possible you see some because of way something is worded and not the actual way it is(?)


Read this again:
*
BFF and W have been friends for 5 years. That is not correlating with our issues from 5 years ago. Their friendship began after we began our problems. They were co-workers then.*


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> You have to be forgiven to get into heaven. Committing adultery, abandoning a spouse cannot be forgiven unless its made right.
> 
> A person who divorces and remarries is in a state of adultery, unless the divorce was because of adultery.
> 
> ...


Man your confused to.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

noas55 said:


> Well if you are not a Believer, I can see your point. I would have handled things a lot differently and probably not even have what i have now.
> 
> We are Believers. We let OURSELVES get us in this mess. God is helping us get out of this mess and He will get us back together since that is what He wants. It is all Faith.


I am a believer and I think you are making the mistake of your life by not moving back in to the house.

"What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
Mark 10:9

There is absolutely no reason, spiritual or otherwise, for you to continue the charade of living apart.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

wilderness said:


> I am a believer and I think you are making the mistake of your life by not moving back in to the house.
> 
> "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
> Mark 10:9
> ...


I wholeheartedly agree.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

What's your wife definition of adultery? Is an "emotional affair only" adultery for her? Is kissing another man adultery? Is a ONS adultery for her? 
Are her definitions in line with yours?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Christian's commit adultery and divorce all the time. Regardless of your wife's stated beliefs I would not count on that alone to save your marriage. I think you put way too much emphasis on letting God fix everything.
> 
> *Usually FALLEN Christians do as you stated. Those with deep beliefs that are true do not. I am not letting God fix everything. I am praying for his help as she is. We are doing the reading and the leg work. We will be dealing with the counselors.*
> 
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> I am a believer and I think you are making the mistake of your life by not moving back in to the house.
> 
> "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
> Mark 10:9
> ...


As stated several times, I am working towards that. If i push too hard too soon it will cause more damage. I am waiting to get her trust up even more and let her see how we are doing. I plan on hitting the subject in a month or so if all is going well.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Tobyboy said:


> What's your wife definition of adultery? Is an "emotional affair only" adultery for her? Is kissing another man adultery? Is a ONS adultery for her?
> Are her definitions in line with yours?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nothing with same sex is allowed. No dancing with man without permission and no slow dances. No holding another man. Nothing intimacy is ever allowed. Our beliefs are the same now as before. The idea of being in another man's arms makes her sick. The idea of me in another woman's arms makes her fiery jealous.
EA was something she had heard about, but did not know much about. At first she denied EA with BFF. She later (7/6) understood the deep connection with BFF was wrong and due more to her stress from marriage. She talked to BFF while I was present. She told her she was backing away for awhile. BFF was not happy but understood. Wife only saw BFF twice over 6 weeks and texts slowed considerably. 
Wife was upset at herself for the EA. I told her NO MORE. be friends but I do not come behind her and that if EA happens again the husband will know and I might leave. This will hurt her in the hospital as well sice it is a catholic hospital.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)




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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

noas55 said:


> As stated several times, I am working towards that. If i push too hard too soon it will cause more damage. I am waiting to get her trust up even more and let her see how we are doing. I plan on hitting the subject in a month or so if all is going well.


Brother, you are so far in denial that it's frightening.

Why would it cause damage to move back into _your_ home?
The only reason she would have a problem with it is if it will put the breaks on her secret life. The life that she is actively trying to exclude you from.
This isn't a casual relationship that you have to work your way into, this is a marriage.

Furthermore, why would you need to 'build trust' when you never had an affair nor were unfaithful in anyway? I'd like to suggest that lack of trust (from your wife's perspective) has ZERO to do with your marital problems. If anything, she is way too comfortable and you should be trying to eliminate the comfort instead of making it stronger.

You really need to take an honest and ruthless evaluation of yourself and your beliefs right now. Some of the things that you apparently believe strongly are totally inconsistent with reality. In other words, you are buried in delusion. Sorry to be blunt, but that's the way that I see it.


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## hurt and cofused (Aug 14, 2013)

Wait so BFF is a male,this worries me alot.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

hurt and cofused said:


> Wait so BFF is a male,this worries me alot.


Where did you get that?


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## hurt and cofused (Aug 14, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Where did you get that?


my bad


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## joygirl (Aug 19, 2013)

Hi there. I've been following this thread since the beginning but just registered today to post here.

I wish, really wish there is a way to figure out what could be truly going on in this woman's mind. It is unusual for a woman to want to be separated from her husband of so many years but at the same time want to to see and be with the same man most of the time. 

Women are generally more forgiving IMHO and most don't need a year plus to be able to make themselves "gain trust" back with a husband they claim to love, especially when no infidelity or physical abuse has taken place. 

On one hand, I respect and commend the OP for his willingness to give WHATEVER it takes (no matter how silly/ridiculous) to save his marriage. On the other hand, I just can't help being pissed at a woman who could throw her hb of 24 years out of the family home just because she was not sure she's ready to continue with the marriage, and at the same time, she wants to go on dates and be intimate with the man every now and then. It all does not add up and the only reason she does all of these is she knows she can...


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> We were talking and I asked. She would have mentioned it anyways because this is when we had agreed to discuss things for our weekend. The holding in bed is a big deal for us so why not mention I miss it


"We were talking and I asked". No kidding. "Mommy the cookies were right there on the counter, and I was hungry and even though I knew it was time for dinner, I ate one anyway!"

Noas you continue to act weak and that's unattractive. You need to build attraction in your wife, not chase her away by acting like a frightened child. 

Perhaps right now she's unsure, she could swing either way, but ultimately she's not going to want to be with a clingy, needy, insecure guy who constantly asks for reassurance.

Of course I've said this several times and for reasons that are not clear you simply don't get it, even though it's a really simple concept.

Stop acting like a puppy dog who has been left out in the rain begging to come back in. Be a man, and yes, you can be a "nice man" while at the same time being a strong man. 

Or continue your present course and you WILL lose her forever, I guarantee it.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Wife was upset at herself for the EA.


This might be the first time you've acknowledged that your wife admitted to having 'at least' an EA with her female friend. That's huge. Changes the whole ball game. It also means she might be bisexual, have you considered that? When one partner has an affair, and the couple is looking to reconcile and fix their marriage, if there is ANY chance of things working out, the wayward partner is the one who needs to bend over backwards to make things right. NOT the betrayed spouse, which in this case is you, who is taking all the blame for the problems and the affair, and who is ready and willing to do everything the wayward spouse asks, including moving out for "as long as it takes". Your strategy is counterproductive, it is sending the message that wife can do whatever she wants with no retribution. She has no reason to respect you.



noas55 said:


> I told her NO MORE. be friends but I do not come behind her and that if EA happens again the husband will know and I might leave.


WEAK. You "might" leave if she does it again.

What do you think that tells her? 

"I can cheat on him _again_ and he doesn't even know if he has the BALLS to do anything about it"


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Why would it cause damage to move back into _your_ home?
> The only reason she would have a problem with it is if it will put the breaks on her secret life. The life that she is actively trying to exclude you from.
> *She is asking for Time and a small amount of Space to figure herself out: her emotions (growing) & finish up her liberation (doing things on her own) She asks me to stay longer now. She asks me to stay 2 nights when I ask for 1. She gets anxiety if I push because she is SO AFRAID for us to ever come down this road again. If time will help her understand that and it helps her come to terms with her emotions, then it is a good thing. *
> 
> ...


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## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

Noas,

Do you think your wife's reasons for kicking you out of the house make sense? I ask, because I don't think anyone else here, including myself, understand why the heck you are not living in your home. 

You provide two central reasons: (1) So she can prove to herself she can be independent and (2) so she can build trust in you that you won't be a bad husband again.

Is that a fair characterization of her rationale? If so, please it read again. 

Honestly, do you think those reasons make sense? If you acknowledge that they don't make sense there are only two possibilities: your wife is mentally ill or she is lying. Which is it?

Folks here want to help you save your marriage, but you are deep in denial. Even if everything works out, and you are back home 6 months from now, do you really want to come back without getting an actual, sane justification for all the crap your wife is putting you through? If you don't truly understand why she did this, what is to stop her from doing it again?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

joygirl said:


> I wish, really wish there is a way to figure out what could be truly going on in this woman's mind. It is unusual for a woman to want to be separated from her husband of so many years but at the same time want to to see and be with the same man most of the time.
> *Well this is something I was confused about too. Finally understanding that it is FEAR in her. She wants that good marriage. Ours has not been GOOD in normal way. Lots of moving, turmoil, and neglect by both partys. She felt our marriage would always be like that way. She is now coming to terms that we can have the marriage WE both want. Just has to shake the fears.*
> 
> Women are generally more forgiving IMHO and most don't need a year plus to be able to make themselves "gain trust" back with a husband they claim to love, especially when no infidelity or physical abuse has taken place.
> ...


Please be sure to read latest post I write after answering people. I really hope to get some insight from you


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> This might be the first time you've acknowledged that your wife admitted to having 'at least' an EA with her female friend. That's huge. Changes the whole ball game. It also means she might be bisexual, have you considered that?
> *Remember W had no idea what EA was. She had to come to terms to what it was. When that happened she realized she had gotten t oclose. That is when she went cold turkey on BFF for 6 weeks with maybe 4 texts and no visits. I thought I had posted taht, but may have forgotten as things are developing so fast over the weeks. I know she is not bisexual. BFF has mentioned she would like to do something with her, but wife is not interested. BFF was hoping to move in after I moved out. Wife said NO. I said I did not want that and W said she heard and she would not do it out of respect. Wife said she did not want to raise BFF and her 2 kids either*
> 
> When one partner has an affair, and the couple is looking to reconcile and fix their marriage, if there is ANY chance of things working out, the wayward partner is the one who needs to bend over backwards to make things right. NOT the betrayed spouse, which in this case is you, who is taking all the blame for the problems and the affair, and who is ready and willing to do everything the wayward spouse asks, including moving out for "as long as it takes".
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

BK23 said:


> Noas,
> 
> You provide two central reasons: (1) So she can prove to herself she can be independent and (2) so she can build trust in you that you won't be a bad husband again.
> 
> ...


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm sorry but your perceptions of what is going on are skewed. Almost everybody giving you support on here is seeing it the opposite as you and it's not because you aren't telling us everything. Your in denial, your in a fog. I pray that God has some reason he is putting you through this and I truly hope it works out. You appear weak and afraid your going to lose her and the image your portraying now I am afraid you will. It's codependency. You need to read codependent no more.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Trust yourself, if you are wrong you can say you tried. In the overall scheme of things you are can only lose a year if it last htat long.

It is odd you never revealed how much the bff was pursuing your wife though. That was/is an all out attack on your marriage.

I would go into this deeper and watch closely for deception.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

BTW, I find her reasoning for separation ridiculous.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> BFF has mentioned she would like to do something with her, but wife is not interested. BFF was hoping to move in after I moved out. Wife said NO. I said I did not want that and W said she heard and she would not do it out of respect





noas55 said:


> She knew what i meant. I would make my decision at that time and LEAVING is on the table. You can say it is "weak", but it is honest statement. She knows what the deal breakers are. If the EA developed again, her decision would make the choice. She does not want to lose me as her husband and I would make her decided me or her.


I get that when you say "you might leave" and "leaving is on the table" is a honest statement. I never said it wasn't. I said it was WEAK because you aren't saying "It's her or me!" You're saying "if it's her again, well maybe I might leave". That means, maybe you won't leave, you'll just put up with it. 

Step up to the plate. Be strong. Gently tell your wife that her best friend who wants to have a sexual relationship, who wanted to move in with her after you moved out, has no place in your lives if you are really looking to rebuild a healthy marriage. 

She needs to decide between her bisexual intrusive troublemaking best friend- and you, and she needs to do it NOW. Not "if and when the EA develops again". It's already there, but it's just sort of simmering. The relationship between her and the BFF is damaging to your marriage. You know it, she knows it, and BFF knows it. It's time to do something about it. You moved out, you're bending over backwards to do what she wants, now it's time to do something- even if it causes her a bit of inconvenience and yes.. some emotional pain. 



noas55 said:


> Wife said she did not want to raise BFF and her 2 kids either


noas every so often you post something rather strange. Here's yet another example. One of your wife's reasons for not having the BFF move in is because she doesn't want to raise her and her children? What does that even mean? Even if we take it at face value, it means that her reasons for not having her friend move in have nothing whatsoever to do with YOU, she just doesn't want the inconvenience of having a few children around the house. That's BAD, and yet you add it to your post as if it is a good thing. It's not.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

TAM is full of people who are trying to help you. Almost everyone is saying you're following a destructive script yet you are not listening to advice so why? 

That's a rhetorical question I don't care to get answers for. To everyone who's offered advice on this thread page after page, you guys are trying to help OP and you're awesome.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> TAM is full of people who have tried to help you. Almost everyone is saying you're following a destructive script yet you are not listening to advice so why? Why not just write this stuff in a diary? Why the updates?
> 
> Those were rhetorical questions I don't care to get answers for. To everyone who's offered advice on this thread page after page, you guys are trying to help OP and you're awesome.


Everyone tried but he doesn't seem to want to hear anything.

He's too close to the situation. He's explaining in detail what is going on. We're giving him a different perspective but when we do he argues with what we suggest.

I hope it works out for him even though I don't agree on how he's going about things. It's a recipe for disaster.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Trust yourself, if you are wrong you can say you tried. In the overall scheme of things you are can only lose a year if it last htat long.
> *Thanks. Actually I think you will love the weekend report. It will be a hard road but I think the wait will be worth it.*
> 
> It is odd you never revealed how much the bff was pursuing your wife though. That was/is an all out attack on your marriage.
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> BTW, I find her reasoning for separation ridiculous.


I agree, but I can say the same for most reasons of people having affairs. As I fit into the category of dumpee, we may not fully understand why our spouses separate; real or their reality.
All we can do is walk away, or accept it and try to work things out.
Hopefully as you work on things, the truth comes out. This is what i am experiencing now. She is being more open and honest than she has been in YEARS


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> I get that when you say "you might leave" and "leaving is on the table" is a honest statement. I never said it wasn't. I said it was WEAK because you aren't saying "It's her or me!" You're saying "if it's her again, well maybe I might leave". That means, maybe you won't leave, you'll just put up with it.
> 
> Step up to the plate. Be strong. Gently tell your wife that her best friend who wants to have a sexual relationship, who wanted to move in with her after you moved out, has no place in your lives if you are really looking to rebuild a healthy marriage.
> *I did tell her it was her or me. That was what I was saying in my own way. Sorry for confusion*
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

A great weekend with my wife. We had some good talks and she had a big discussion at her BFF home on Saturday. 

I heard the most important words so far in the separation from W last night. Let’s go back for a bit though. I am having problems remembering all the stuff. 
Sat. after work, I went home and W was at BFF visiting. She texted for me to go home and relax, don’t worry about yard, she would be home in an hour. I wanted to do the yard so I would not have to on Sunday. I decided I would wait until Monday and took her hint to relax. 
She came in at 5 and she was happy to see me. I received a big smile & a series of passionate kisses and hugs. It has been a long time since I had that type of greeting.
As we were getting dressed for our evening out we laid on our bed and talked until 8:15. She made it clear she was happy and did not want to lose me. She told me about how she knew she could lose me, but she just needed time to deal with her problems.
I asked if anything new had come up, she said no, but she has worked out some problems. She has HIGH HOPES on me coming home within the year lease.
She took me to our favorite restuarnt and then we went home.
As we cuddled on couch listening to music She told me that this was the first time she had been eager to get home to me. She was very happy and loved me being at home (POSITIVE PROGRESS) We went to bed and had sex. She made the move.

Sunday she was off and I worked 12-5
I went to the house as was pre-arranged and she was at BFF's getting her toe nails done. Earlier she had mowed grass so I wouldn't have to. Great surprise! 
I took her to eat for our DATE NIGHT and then we went by hospital to get her schedule. She was in there a while so I figured she was chatting with workers. She was talking to a naysayer (NS) who she had not seen in nearly a month. NS asked how we were doing. I don’t know all that was said, but W told me the big part.
NS: W the way you smile and talk about him. You are not going to leave him.
W: You know I have not thought of it until now. No. I am not going to leave (H) 
NS: I am happy for you, but make sure it is what you want.
W: It is. I know we may need counseling, but it all can be fix. I do want him home. It will just take time.
WOW! She told me this in the hospital parking lot. It was a slap that rocked me. I was so happy!
Went to park and then home. Great talks and cuddling over the past 2 days. She even told me she considered us in Reconciliation phrase. There are still things that need fixing but all the good days and how we have grown in 10 weeks makes her feel confident although anxious at times.
Her cramps started again which made her miserable so no sex which was sad for both of us. She was planning on it too. Maybe later this week. She is working on her sexual desires for me.

Monday we woke and enjoyed the morning. I told her I would leave when she went to bed for her nap and give her a quiet afternoon. I would come by at 1pm on Tues to fix lunch and spend our afternoon together. She was happy with the plans.

At nap time she asked me to stay and lay down with her, if I didn't mind. Of course I wouldn't mind. My dilemma was do I stay and hold her till she slept or sleep with her through nap time. I was not sure which she wanted so I asked; she said do what you want to do. I chose to hold her & sleep. We slept for over 3 hours! Our naps were usually 90 mins. Very relaxing and peaceful sleep for both of us.

So with this post I am glad I can now say I made the right choices so far although I know many felt I didn't. No harm and I still respect the heck out of all of you. I have a long road ahead of me, but I feel better knowing my wife wants to save our marriage as much as me.

To those who are going through a separation.... if you love your spouse and want to save your marriage....never lose Faith and never give up. Listen to them. They will tell you what you need to know to fix the problem. They will lead you down a trail full of potholes, curves, and alternate paths. You must be ready to make changes on your plans/ideas on what to do because they will tell you something that does not make sense. Work and adjust to accommodate their needs, BUT you must work on yourself and better yourself as if the goal will fail. 
Stay Positive. Try not to use negative speech with the spouse.
If spouse is talking about lack of communication or neglect, BUT they are not breaking of contact and visitations...I do believe the 180 will only make things worse. I know many will disagree, but I can say it would have destroyed any chance I had to save my marriage. I reversed it and gave my woman everything she desired and said I lack giving her over the years.

I will gladly read and answer any posts on this thread, but as of tomorrow I will be starting a new thread in the RECONCILIATION Section. 
We do ask for prayers on God continuing to help us repair ourselves as well as our marriage.
Thank you all for the help....we all are brothers and sisters on these boards. If I can help, do not hesitate to ask or PM me.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

If she wants to be with you, why would she need more time to be separated? Please don't feed me the line about her being in fear of things going back to the way they were before- that is nonsense.

Move back into the home tomorrow and you are going to find out real quick whether she wants to be with you or not.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> If she wants to be with you, why would she need more time to be separated? Please don't feed me the line about her being in fear of things going back to the way they were before- that is nonsense.
> 
> Move back into the home tomorrow and you are going to find out real quick whether she wants to be with you or not.


I finally found a good counselor and asked some questions during our initial visit. On Wife's fear. The female counselor stated that women have this fear more than men when they are the walkaway spouse. It is common and that I am doing the right thing by letting her take the time to see that her judgment is valid. W has lost faith in herself on making judgments in such areas. The counselor stated that it should not take long for her to realize she has made a good one as long as I do not push or regress. The year lease is her safety net, but with W saying 9 months I will be home more times than not...that is her subconscious already accepting things.

If a person was fearful of something in a job, relationship, or anything else, it makes perfect sense for them to be fearful of things going back to old ways when they like and see favorable changes. 
Everyone has experienced jobs that were bad, saw good changes, and then the job either went back to the way it was, stayed good, or even got worse.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

noas55 said:


> I finally found a good counselor and asked some questions during our initial visit. On Wife's fear. The female counselor stated that women have this fear more than men when they are the walkaway spouse. It is common and that I am doing the right thing by letting her take the time to see that her judgment is valid. W has lost faith in herself on making judgments in such areas. The counselor stated that it should not take long for her to realize she has made a good one as long as I do not push or regress. The year lease is her safety net, but with W saying 9 months I will be home more times than not...that is her subconscious already accepting things.
> 
> If a person was fearful of something in a job, relationship, or anything else, it makes perfect sense for them to be fearful of things going back to old ways when they like and see favorable changes.
> Everyone has experienced jobs that were bad, saw good changes, and then the job either went back to the way it was, stayed good, or even got worse.


You're in lala land, man. So is your counselor.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> You're in lala land, man. So is your counselor.


1) I may be in LA LA land but at least my marriage is progressing to being fixed and not a divorce.
2) As for counselor ....maybe so, but their reasoning makes sense. Also I have no clue to what your story or credentials are.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

noas55 said:


> 1) I may be in LA LA land but at least my marriage is progressing to being fixed and not a divorce.
> 2) As for counselor ....maybe so, but their reasoning makes sense. Also I have no clue to what your story or credentials are.


No, your counselor's reasoning *doesn't* make sense, that's the point. In fact, her reasoning is comically ridiculous.

Start acting like a man and move back into your home. Do it now while you still have the opportunity.


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## Iver (Mar 8, 2013)

Noas,

Glad to hear you're happy with how things are progressing.

I don't quite understand your wife but she's a woman so that probably explains it.

Good luck and keep slugging away.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Glad things seem to be working out for you.

I'll be looking for your new thread in the reconciliation section and I'll be sure to follow your progress right up to the day you unpack when you return home.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks for the support and I know we butted heads at times, but I am glad you were there and still with me on this journey.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

lenzi said:


> Glad things seem to be working out for you.
> 
> I'll be looking for your new thread in the reconciliation section and I'll be sure to follow your progress right up to the day you unpack when you return home.


QFH

Quoted for hope. I hope Im wrong. I really really really do. I hope you get to laugh at all of us one day soon saying your marriage is stronger than ever and you fvcked 5 times last night and she had 5 toe curlers.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

noas is convinced his strategy is working and until and unless things go completely in the wrong direction all I'm going to do is make supportive posts because my head was getting sore from banging it against the wall.


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## joygirl (Aug 19, 2013)

Congrats on your successful upgrade and promotion to reconciliation phase! I don't know you but I'm proud of you. The end result is all that matters, not how you went about it. 

Wishing you happiness.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

One more thank you all for being there, arguing with me, and supporting me as brother and sisters do.
These 2 1/2 months have been very hard and stressful. I know the next 3-6 months will be hard in a different way. After that I will know more on where I am with her on actually going home, I hope. She even repeated today that she does not seeing it going a full year. She is very happy with me and how our relationship has changed. I am not delusional. I do know things can go bad in a heartbeat. I am trusting my Faith in God and my wife, in that order, to get us to the ultimate goal.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

noas55 said:


> One more thank you all for being there, arguing with me, and supporting me as brother and sisters do.
> These 2 1/2 months have been very hard and stressful. I know the next 3-6 months will be hard in a different way. After that I will know more on where I am with her on actually going home, I hope. She even repeated today that she does not seeing it going a full year. She is very happy with me and how our relationship has changed. I am not delusional. I do know things can go bad in a heartbeat. I am trusting my Faith in God and my wife, in that order, to get us to the ultimate goal.


Noas

You left out the most important ingredient of a Reconciliation:

Trust in your faith in God. Check.
Trust in your faith in your wife. Check.

*Trust in yourself to continue to improve yourself. Mucho importante.*
Happiness starts from within my friend. So focus on yourself. Use these next months to continue to diet, exercise, work on your anger issues and overall happiness.

Because no matter what happens in your marriage you will come out a better person.'

*Do it for you!*

HM


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Noas
> 
> You left out the most important ingredient of a Reconciliation:
> 
> ...


Thanks HAPPY. I am still working on me. I will always be working on myself for all involved even after I am home. Probably forever.


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

noas55 said:


> Well if you are not a Believer, I can see your point. I would have handled things a lot differently and probably not even have what i have now.
> 
> We are Believers. We let OURSELVES get us in this mess. God is helping us get out of this mess and He will get us back together since that is what He wants. It is all Faith.


Oh I am a believer. Baptist raised. But I do know that God would never approve a Christian man and wife living apart. There is nothing your wife is doing that exhibits any kind of obediance to God's word. She is there to be your helpmeet, you are there to be her protector and spiritual head. Niether of you can live in obedience to God by living apart the way you are doing. 

What would Jesus do? He would give your wife as swift kick in the keester and tell her to get back with you and stop all of her shenanigans. He would tell you to start being the leader you were born to be. 

No, I'm not seeing anything obediant in the way you and your wife are going about this.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

BashfulBull said:


> Oh I am a believer. Baptist raised. But I do know that God would never approve a Christian man and wife living apart. There is nothing your wife is doing that exhibits any kind of obediance to God's word. She is there to be your helpmeet, you are there to be her protector and spiritual head. Niether of you can live in obedience to God by living apart the way you are doing.
> 
> What would Jesus do? He would give your wife as swift kick in the keester and tell her to get back with you and stop all of her shenanigans. He would tell you to start being the leader you were born to be.
> 
> No, I'm not seeing anything obediant in the way you and your wife are going about this.


I don't mean to pile on, but this post nailed it. She is saying that because she doesn't trust her own feelings, she needs another 9 months of living apart? Yet she trusted her feelings enough to have an EA (at minimum)? This, and all of her other excuses as to why she wants to be apart, are about as threadbare and transparent as it gets. 
Really, man...think about what a leader would do in this situation. IMO a leader would move back into the home. If she protests, simply call her out on her nonsense excuses. Her reasoning for wanting to be apart _stinks_.

This way, you don't have to wait another 9 months before things either work or fall apart.


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## joygirl (Aug 19, 2013)

As a woman, I totally disapprove of what OP's wife is doing. I 'm actually a little angry and jealous (lol) that she can treat her hb that way, ask for a separation, throw him out and still be enjoying all the benefits of being a good wife. Most of us have made and still make a lot of sacrifices to keep our marriage together and have endured and tolerated difficult situations with our husbands.

But, IF the OP, knowing and accessing his situation, marriage and wife of 24 years, THINKS or believes, the only way he stands a chance to remain married to her is by playing by her rules, even though it appears to be morally wrong and in fact ludicrous, and he really, more than anything doesn't want to lose her, then why not let him play along? 

As I said earlier, it's the end result that counts...


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

joygirl said:


> But, IF the OP, knowing and accessing his situation, marriage and wife of 24 years, THINKS or believes, the only way he stands a chance to remain married to her is by playing by her rules, even though it appears to be morally wrong and in fact ludicrous, and he really, more than anything doesn't want to lose her, then why not let him play along?
> 
> As I said earlier, it's the end result that counts...


Why not let a person pursue a course of action that appears to be morally wrong and in fact ludicrous? Because most of us are here to help and when we see people lost, confused, and making mistakes that we know are going to cost them big time, we can't say "ok go give it your best shot" because then we can't sleep so well at night. Because we know the "end result" isn't going to be so good.

In this case, that's exactly what I've done, but as I said it's only because noass has made it clear he has his own agenda and he's not here to listen to anyone's advice that contradicts his own way of thinking, and it's only AFTER I've tried numerous times to steer in what I believe would be a much more positive direction.


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## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

If he plays by her rules to get her back, he will be playing by her rules as long as she allows him to stay in the "back" status. If you can't live side by side, it becomes a relationship about power of one over the other and that sounds like parent/child relationship to me.


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

lenzi said:


> Why not let a person pursue a course of action that appears to be morally wrong and in fact ludicrous? Because most of us are here to help and when we see people lost, confused, and making mistakes that we know are going to cost them big time, we can't say "ok go give it your best shot" because then we can't sleep so well at night. Because we know the "end result" isn't going to be so good.
> 
> In this case, that's exactly what I've done, but as I said it's only because noass has made it clear he has his own agenda and he's not here to listen to anyone's advice that contradicts his own way of thinking, and it's only AFTER I've tried numerous times to steer in what I believe would be a much more positive direction.


I'd like to know what whacked out, liberal Christian church he and his wife go to...because what they are doing is so far from aligning with God's will that it would be funny if it wasn't so sad. 

A man is to leave his parents and cling to his wife. Wives are to submit themselves to the spiritual leadership of their husbands...inside and outside the home. Period.

That's the way my Bible reads.


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## Fisherman (Oct 26, 2012)

BashfulBull said:


> I'd like to know what whacked out, liberal Christian church he and his wife go to...because what they are doing is so far from aligning with God's will that it would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
> 
> A man is to leave his parents and cling to his wife. Wives are to submit themselves to the spiritual leadership of their husbands...inside and outside the home. Period.
> 
> That's the way my Bible reads.


He said he was southern baptist, definitely not liberal.


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

Fisherman said:


> He said he was southern baptist, definitely not liberal.


Well then he's dozing off during Sunday School.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

BashfulBull said:


> Oh I am a believer. Baptist raised. But I do know that God would never approve a Christian man and wife living apart. There is nothing your wife is doing that exhibits any kind of obediance to God's word. She is there to be your helpmeet, you are there to be her protector and spiritual head. Niether of you can live in obedience to God by living apart the way you are doing.
> 
> What would Jesus do? He would give your wife as swift kick in the keester and tell her to get back with you and stop all of her shenanigans. He would tell you to start being the leader you were born to be.
> 
> No, I'm not seeing anything obediant in the way you and your wife are going about this.


I do agree with you 100% on wife. My moving out was done to save my marriage and work on things the way I could. It just worked out that way and for the best.. If wife would have left, she would have had total control of situation. Heck I may not even know where she went. can you see the benefit in my decision?
I agree God does not want what is happening. He is getting us back together. She is the hold up. I do see her daily and sleep at home more than anyone expected. Please follow my new thread fro more info on situation


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> I don't mean to pile on, but this post nailed it. She is saying that because she doesn't trust her own feelings, she needs another 9 months of living apart? Yet she trusted her feelings enough to have an EA (at minimum)? This, and all of her other excuses as to why she wants to be apart, are about as threadbare and transparent as it gets.
> Really, man...think about what a leader would do in this situation. IMO a leader would move back into the home. If she protests, simply call her out on her nonsense excuses. Her reasoning for wanting to be apart _stinks_.
> 
> This way, you don't have to wait another 9 months before things either work or fall apart.


Have any of you dealt with a person going through mid life crisis? many professionals say the individual is slightly insane during the time. No apparent reasons, but it happens.
The 9 months time request is dwindling down quickly. She is wanting me home more and more each day. 
She knows she is wrong, but can't quite get over some fears.
The EA was more her appreciating the emotional love that she got from her BFF. The BFF wanted more and that was squashed asap once wife came to understand how their friendship became corrupted.
Please follow newest thread for latest updates as we improve. I do appreciate your opinion


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

angstire said:


> If he plays by her rules to get her back, he will be playing by her rules as long as she allows him to stay in the "back" status. If you can't live side by side, it becomes a relationship about power of one over the other and that sounds like parent/child relationship to me.


You are correct to a point. My situation is not how you perceive it though. She had major HARD CORE rules at the beginning of this nightmare. My way of handling things has erased all but 3 or 4 of those rules and only 2 still holds stern for now. Those are falling slowly, but they are coming down. 1) Move back home...getting closer by the week. I expect I will be home all but on rare occasion within a few months. 2) Going on dates with other people, church, dinner, etc


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

As far as what church we attended.
Our work schedules, businesses and my military career got in the way of church. I mentioned this in earlier posts. I stepped back into church for 1st time in 10 years 2 Sundays ago. This is why I recommitted myself. It has been that long for wife too.
Over time I fell away from The Word and God. Not proud of it, but it happens. She stayed deeper in her Faith until a few years ago. Nursing school interfered then. We were like two ships on the ocean without skippers.
I am now back Home. She believes as well, just she is upset with herself and feels that God is upset at her for what she has done.
We actually talked about this today.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

W told her BFF tonight that we were getting back together. I will be coming home, but the WHEN has not been set yet.  BFF not too happy about it


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

noas55 said:


> W told her BFF tonight that we were getting back together. I will be coming home, but the WHEN has not been set yet.  BFF not too happy about it


Well you set it. Think of a date maybe a month or 2 and tell her this is when I'm moving back-no emotion. Your sex rank will go through the roof. If she gives you "well I don't know" say hm my lease isn't up. You know I wish nothing but the best for you.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Congrats N55, now the real work begins. I know your smart enough to know that. I think for you personal sitch, you handled it as well as you could, not every crisis is the same. You know your wife better than anyone else. Now its time to build a new, stronger marriage. The work from here on out never ends.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thank you! The other week she mentioned 3-4 months then home 99% of time. I really believe it will be sooner now that she is telling people including her mother we are together and I am coming home.
I am seeing her daily and sleeping at home 4-5 times a week already.
I may see where she goes with this. She is loving the patience I am displaying in letting her find her way.
The hard part DOES start now. I must continue to grow and change. That part will never end.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Thank you! The other week she mentioned 3-4 months then home 99% of time. I really believe it will be sooner now that she is telling people including her mother we are together and I am coming home.
> I am seeing her daily and sleeping at home 4-5 times a week already.
> I may see where she goes with this. She is loving the patience I am displaying in letting her find her way.
> The hard part DOES start now. I must continue to grow and change. That part will never end.


Hey maybe make yourself a little les available for a few weeks and see what happens. You would be surprised.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Hey maybe make yourself a little les available for a few weeks and see what happens. You would be surprised.


I have thought of that, but after 12 weeks of doing what I have been doing, the sudden change might scare her and hurt her trusting me. Even as much as we have seen each other, she has finally started missing me. She has stated that wasn't the case early on. I am thinking staying consistent & changing as she changed throughout the whole ordeal has been what has helped me most.

Tough decision, but like I stated; any sudden changes now could shock her.
I am slowly implementing normalcy back into our lives. Getting her to go do stuff w/o me while I run to hardware store or I work around the house. I went shopping while she was cleaning the house the other day. She loved that quiet time.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

noas55 said:


> W told her BFF tonight that we were getting back together. I will be coming home, but the WHEN has not been set yet.  BFF not too happy about it


Therein lies part of your problem. The BFF. 

Take your time with your wife. 

Subtly point out who is for your marriage to succeed and who is not Noas. 

And never go backwards. Keep moving forward. 

There is light at the end of your tunnel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

noas55 said:


> W told her BFF tonight that we were getting back together. I will be coming home, but the WHEN has not been set yet.  BFF not too happy about it


The BFF is nothing but a meddling troublemaker. She's pulling your wife in one direction, you are pulling her in another. Do not underestimate the effect she has on your wife.

There is no room in your lives for this person. Either she goes or you will go. 

If this whole thing crashes, your reluctance to put your foot down in regard to this person will be your undoing.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

noas55 said:


> Have any of you dealt with a person going through mid life crisis? many professionals say the individual is slightly insane during the time. No apparent reasons, but it happens.
> The 9 months time request is dwindling down quickly. She is wanting me home more and more each day.
> She knows she is wrong, but can't quite get over some fears.
> The EA was more her appreciating the emotional love that she got from her BFF. The BFF wanted more and that was squashed asap once wife came to understand how their friendship became corrupted.
> Please follow newest thread for latest updates as we improve. I do appreciate your opinion


If she knows she is wrong, why does she continue to do wrong? As to 'midlife crisis' that's just a psychobabble buzzword used to justify bad behavior. Why do you continue to make excuses for your wife? Why don't you move back into your home? If she truly loves you and wants you around as much as you say, she would be thrilled if you did this. If she is playing you, she won't be thrilled and you can react accordingly.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

lenzi said:


> The BFF is nothing but a meddling troublemaker. She's pulling your wife in one direction, you are pulling her in another. Do not underestimate the effect she has on your wife.
> 
> There is no room in your lives for this person. Either she goes or you will go.
> 
> If this whole thing crashes, your reluctance to put your foot down in regard to this person will be your undoing.


At their visit last night, BFF tried the old routine..I might leave my husband. he does not show me affection, romance, or love. (Same story all the years, but has never left) 
W told BFF that she sounded jealous. BFF said no, but she may need place to stay. W said that was not possible and it would never happen. W also told her I would not allow it anyway.
BFF got mad saying best friends should help each other. W said best friends would not mess up each others marriage. W then told her bye and went home.
W called me and we talked about their EA and the BFF for over an hour. She cried and felt so bad about EA. She is upset that BFF is still pushing her. I told her to tell BFF to stop the games and back off or I will. She said she would before Tues. I said do not risk our marriage over a friend who does not respect your marriage and you already saying NO. I told her BFF must be friend only. Anymore bs and it will force my hand. She cried and said she understood. 
More relaxing talks over the next 90 mins. 
W knows now how dangerous the EA can be. She let herself get too caught up in bs drama and realizing that BFF wanted to have a relationship with her really freaked her out.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Therein lies part of your problem. The BFF.
> 
> Take your time with your wife.
> 
> ...


Thanks HAPPY. Yes BFF was a big problem. We are watching BFF actions more closely. Read what I put in LENZI reply about last night discussion between W and BFF. Really sad. It hurts my W knowing her BFF may force her to break off friendship.
I explained to her that EA have same problems as PA when one does not wish to end relationship. W wants only the friendship and nothing more. I do hope BFF can get over it. BFF husband was present at their fight last night as well. He is not too happy with HIS WIFE.

I am patiently walking my wife back into the marriage. She is making the decisions on her own as I stand beside her. 
I will not lie. This is the hardest thing I have ever endured. I have served 22 years in Army, 5 tours, been shot and killed a few, but nothing has scared me more than these 3 months. It will be a hard road, but I can see that light and it is sweet


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> If she knows she is wrong, why does she continue to do wrong? As to 'midlife crisis' that's just a psychobabble buzzword used to justify bad behavior. Why do you continue to make excuses for your wife? Why don't you move back into your home? If she truly loves you and wants you around as much as you say, she would be thrilled if you did this. If she is playing you, she won't be thrilled and you can react accordingly.


I am not much into psychobabble crap myself, but after what I have endured, seen, and experienced. I do understand how MLC warps a person's sanity.
Her fears are like phobias right now. If I force a move it will set us back or end things. That is why you don't force the issue. Not everything is cut and dry as people want to believe. She does want me back in the home. As she explains it, the normalcy scares her because for her at this time IN HER HEAD, normalcy makes her think of the past and that makes her afraid my old me will show back up.
As much as I can try to understand her fear/phobia, I am cool letting her adjust at her pace. I have set a deadline of 4 months of me working her way. By then I will be staying at home all but 1 or 2 nights a week if not moved in mostly so we can live the real normalcy. She thinks she will be ready by then. If not we get help.
Like I have stated already I stay 3-5 nights a week at home. Several nights she works so I sleep alone, but I am here when she comes home. I hold her till she sleeps then I get up and start my day.

It seems the space she is needing is more about 3-4 hours one night every 7-10 days to just have quiet at home with no one around. That has already been worked out, explained to her, and ready for implementing when I get back home.

She had been detaching from me for over 2 years so I fully expect her to have issues on reconnecting and getting back to the normal that we want in our marriage.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

noas55 said:


> I am not much into psychobabble crap myself, but after what I have endured, seen, and experienced. I do understand how MLC warps a person's sanity.
> Her fears are like phobias right now. If I force a move it will set us back or end things. That is why you don't force the issue. Not everything is cut and dry as people want to believe. She does want me back in the home. As she explains it, the normalcy scares her because for her at this time IN HER HEAD, normalcy makes her think of the past and that makes her afraid my old me will show back up.
> As much as I can try to understand her fear/phobia, I am cool letting her adjust at her pace. I have set a deadline of 4 months of me working her way. By then I will be staying at home all but 1 or 2 nights a week if not moved in mostly so we can live the real normalcy. She thinks she will be ready by then. If not we get help.
> Like I have stated already I stay 3-5 nights a week at home. Several nights she works so I sleep alone, but I am here when she comes home. I hold her till she sleeps then I get up and start my day.
> ...


Why would moving back in end things? Why is your deadline 4 months away? That's a crazy long time. I hate to tell you this, but if she is saying that she needs space she is still having some sort of an affair. The chances are probably over 99% that this is true. If you move back into the home, you can put a keylogger on her computer and VARs around the house and in her car. You'll be able to find out the truth and hopefully, protect yourself. To just blindly assume that your wife is the one in a thousand acting like this but NOT having an affair is naive at best.

What you are doing by staying out of the home is to give her time to put her ducks in a row and determine if she wants to be with you or her affair partner. Do you really want that? That's what you are choosing.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Why would moving back in end things? Why is your deadline 4 months away? That's a crazy long time. I hate to tell you this, but if she is saying that she needs space she is still having some sort of an affair. The chances are probably over 99% that this is true. If you move back into the home, you can put a keylogger on her computer and VARs around the house and in her car. You'll be able to find out the truth and hopefully, protect yourself. To just blindly assume that your wife is the one in a thousand acting like this but NOT having an affair is naive at best.
> *VAR (3) have been in use for over 10 weeks. Nothing out of ordinary has been heard. I also move them around. She is asking for "space" in the essence of 2-4 hours every once in while. Nothing out of ordinary about that. The problem is getting her to utilize the time that could be used for"space" in a normal situation...like when I am doing work, at YMCA, or at a horror movie. She agrees that I she didn't do that before. Adjusting back to normalcy won't take long. Getting over the fears might take longer, but we both feel she will get over them. I know where my wife is 99% of the time. The other 1% is there for that rare moment. *
> 
> What you are doing by staying out of the home is to give her time to put her ducks in a row.
> *Do you realize I am at my house at least once a day? I can freely enter the house, her car, her job, phone & computer, anything I want. I have access to our budget software. There are no areas in our life that are off limits by either spouse. The only ducks are us two.*


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Something is not adding up. If the issue is truly concerning 2-4 hours every once in awhile, all you have to do is move in and give her 2-4 hours of free time every so often. Moving in will NOT in any way preclude her from having this time. Bottom line: if things are going as you say, your wife would not have a problem with you moving in tomorrow. She wouldn't want another 4 months. Furthermore, even if she says she wants another 4 months, moving in would not harm your relationship.
So why not move back in?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You have set a course of action. You may as well see it through.

How long do you plan on monitoring her. If she finds a var......well what do you think would happen?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

If I were to suspect cheating, it would be at work. One, that's where most cheaters find an affair partner and Two, the medical field is at the top of the list for cheaters.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> Something is not adding up. If the issue is truly concerning 2-4 hours every once in awhile, all you have to do is move in and give her 2-4 hours of free time every so often. Moving in will NOT in any way preclude her from having this time. Bottom line: if things are going as you say, your wife would not have a problem with you moving in tomorrow. She wouldn't want another 4 months. Furthermore, even if she says she wants another 4 months, moving in would not harm your relationship.
> So why not move back in?


All along I have let her call the shots on what she wanted or needed. I put my foot down if I saw I needed too. The whole strategy was to get her trust back as I changed myself.
If I changed strategies now by forcing the issue of moving back, it could offset the progress and make her not trust me again.
I agree the 2-4 hours thing is just her way of holding on to her fear. Each day she makes changes that whittle things down even more. As long as she is showing progress, I have no intentions of pushing her. If she stalls then I can say enough, but I am hoping she will progress each day and eventually within a few weeks to a few months this ordeal will be over per se. I put the 4 month limit only as a guideline so we would have 3 months to do my suggestion on her "space time" before lease sign up came about. I really don't expect that.
I slept 2 out of last 4 nights at home. I will be staying tonight thru Weds at her request. I may sleep at my apt Thurs & Fri, then back to house over the weekend. I also see her daily so really things are going great.
Even today she told me she loved me on the phone. 
"Slow baby steps" is what I keep telling myself.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> How long do you plan on monitoring her. If she finds a var......well what do you think would happen?


I plan on quitting it this week.
If she found a VAR...probably set me back in the trust factor for a bit. She would be pissed!!
Like I stated before there is no signs of an affair and better yet is the recordings of her talking to BFF about how W felt uncomfortable with BFF after she realized EA was actually going on. Their friendship is really strained right now


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> If I were to suspect cheating, it would be at work. One, that's where most cheaters find an affair partner and Two, the medical field is at the top of the list for cheaters.


I agree on both statements, but there just isn't anything that shows up. That includes talking with people. The hospital also has zero tolerance for fraternization among the staff. W would lose her job, reputation, and such. The separation has slightly hurt her at work already. Walking on 24 year marriage without any big reasons has made the big wigs frown on her.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Has your wife ever mentioned affairs where she works?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Has your wife ever mentioned affairs where she works?


In the seven years she has worked there, only 3 have been brought to public. I know they do happen. I am naive to that.
If caught in an affair even if it is not work related, you will lose you job at the hospital. If it is a co-worker, both are fired. No appeals or anything. Part of paperwork you sign for employment covers this. St Anthony's Hospitals are Catholic hospitals that have won many lawsuits against the Gov. over no birth control, no abortions, and the affair clause.
This is another reason I felt no PA ever happened. W is very protective of her nursing license. She will not drive if she drinks. She calls me to pick her up even from BFF home.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> In the seven years she has worked there, only 3 have been brought to public. I know they do happen. I am naive to that.
> If caught in an affair even if it is not work related, you will lose you job at the hospital. If it is a co-worker, both are fired. No appeals or anything. Part of paperwork you sign for employment covers this. St Anthony's Hospitals are Catholic hospitals that have won many lawsuits against the Gov. over no birth control, no abortions, and the affair clause.
> This is another reason I felt no PA ever happened. W is very protective of her nursing license. She will not drive if she drinks. She calls me to pick her up even from BFF home.


She drinks with BFF?


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

wilderness said:


> If she knows she is wrong, why does she continue to do wrong? As to 'midlife crisis' that's just a psychobabble buzzword used to justify bad behavior. Why do you continue to make excuses for your wife? Why don't you move back into your home? If she truly loves you and wants you around as much as you say, she would be thrilled if you did this. If she is playing you, she won't be thrilled and you can react accordingly.


:iagree: Mega>>>>>:iagree:


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

Noah, share some of these verses with your wife.




> 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 ESV:
> 
> To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.
> 
> ...


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> She drinks with BFF?


If you mean at the BFF's home. No. 
Wife would not even classify as a social drinker. 
She drinks 1 glass of wine at home sometimes. Only times she has a drink w/o me being present is at the club. It is usually 1 or 2 drinks. She never drinks the drinks that a stranger brings to her (fear of being drugged). This is very rare. Once or twice a year. It has been over a year since the ladies went out.
It is rare but there has been a few times W & BFF went to club together. I always know about it.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

BashfulBull said:


> Noah, share some of these verses with your wife.


We both are aware of these verses.
This is what part of her issues were, especially in the beginning of the separation. She knew she was doing wrong in God's eyes. She felt trapped in a bad marriage and making the decision bugged her. She felt that she was betraying her God's words and that He would not forgive her.
This is why I sat her down on D-day 2 and made sure she listened. As she sat, I knelt on the floor in front of her and held both hands. I told her:
" W, listen to me and hear me well. Lord Jesus, I forgive my wife for wanting this separation. I do not forgive her if she is seeking a Divorce. I ask God to forgive her for asking for separation too.
I know W must ask forgiveness herself, but I also want you to know that I love this woman enough to seek this for her."

This was one of the biggest impacts on her at the early beginning of separation.

She always stated that she knew she could lose me and be single the rest of her life. It worried her and bugged her immensely. 
Like I stated before, DIVORCE was never an option by her. She felt that I would not want her back after she left. My fighting for her REALLY SHOCKED her because she just knew I did not love her enough to fight. She was surprised and THAT is what made her decide to stay in our home with me for 8 weeks before I could move.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Wife told me she was ready to go back to church WITH me this week. She is also telling me she loves me several times a day. Fantastic news to my ears these past 5 days.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Wife told me she was ready to go back to church WITH me this week. She is also telling me she loves me several times a day. Fantastic news to my ears these past 5 days.


That is great.

Are you still working on you?

Losing weight?
Getting in shape?
Keeping the temper under control?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Yes. Weight wise, I am at 231 pounds still. I will begin striving for 200 pounds next week as I am letting myself heal from drastic loss. I am able to eat normal now that I have an appetite. 
I go to YMCA 2-3 times a week.
No temper blow ups in over 8 weeks. When we do discuss hard or even argue like last night, I am not blaming, pointing fingers, or cussing. These are things that wife has even pointed out to me. She feels we can argue safely. She even admits she has to work on her side of the temper issues now. 
Mentally I am doing better. This past few days have been NORMAL. I can actually listen to music and not switch the music due to song or memories. I can even watch movies.
I am currently reading HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

noas55 said:


> Yes. Weight wise, I am at 231 pounds still. I will begin striving for 200 pounds next week as I am letting myself heal from drastic loss. I am able to eat normal now that I have an appetite.
> I go to YMCA 2-3 times a week.
> No temper blow ups in over 8 weeks. When we do discuss hard or even argue like last night, I am not blaming, pointing fingers, or cussing. These are things that wife has even pointed out to me. She feels we can argue safely. She even admits she has to work on her side of the temper issues now.
> Mentally I am doing better. This past few days have been NORMAL. I can actually listen to music and not switch the music due to song or memories. I can even watch movies.
> I am currently reading HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS.


:smthumbup::smthumbup:No letting up now both phyisical and mental your sex rank is going through the roof I'm so happy for you. You must be the exception here.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

TOM: Thanks for the encouragement. It has not been easy, but it is getting easier. The great thing is that we are integrating more of my new routine (YMCA, reading at the park, etc) into her private quiet time when we are together. This is giving her "space" as I better myself.
Too bad I did not do this years ago.
Now that we have my doctor appointment for my first visit for my ED issue.. this will help that sex rank as well. She is happy I am just trying in the bedroom as well with doctor. This helps relieve lots of stress off of me.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Excellent update.
Get all the issues under control so your life improves.

Do it for you and she will benefit from it as well.

And finish that book. It is an eye opener.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

I intend to read all the books I can to keep improving. I was so WRONG for so many years. My wife is reading most of the same books as well and she agrees with me. We do feel our marriage will be so much better and we will be happily married. We feel we will not be at this area again. We have rebuilt our marriage on the fears and new knowledge we have obtained.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Well after 2 nights at apt while wife worked those nights, I will be at home for 6 straight nights. This will be a big test for us as it will be the longest stretch of consecutive nights. This will be a stressful time as we deal with possibly putting down our 22 year old cat, Jasmine.
Tomorrow I will see doctor for the first time on ED issue as well.
Keep us in your prayers & thoughts as we move closer to ending this nightmare.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Hope this works out OP


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Day 3 of 6 straight at home. These 3 days have been like normal days with work, trip to cat vet, and more work. Wife has stated several times it is nice having me at home and even stated that her co-workers have asked when she was bringing me home. She said she had a plan, but that has changed like all her other plans, IN A GOOD WAY. 
I told her what I had my own idea what she was trying to do, but I would not say what it was. I did say if I was correct, I figured I would be home after the holidays in 4 months. She agreed that sounded about right as far as her personal plan was, but that seems to be changing for the better inside her.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Dude you have to work on a long term problem. You have time but here it is.

You have traded to her all the power in the relationship. You need to figure out how to get a big chunk of it back without setting this whole mess backwards.

Just sayin.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Dude you have to work on a long term problem. You have time but here it is.
> You have traded to her all the power in the relationship. You need to figure out how to get a big chunk of it back without setting this whole mess backwards.


I can see where you might think this. Actually I have more control in the relationship than what is posted. The financials are more in my control as she is implementing my ideas again: joint accounts, she does budget but I have heavy influence on how we handle bills, major expenses, and such. I also plan out almost all our dates and activities. 
I have a major say on when I stay at home. I come and go as I please EVEN on days I am at apt.
The relationship is about as normal as it was before D-day, BUT happier.

The move back home date is moving closer each day (her statement) This has to be her decision. If I force the issue, she could have doubts on if she gave it enough time. This could bring us back to this situation later on. I have time. Patience is hard to deal with, but I am trying.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

The day I have waited for has finally come. 3 months and 3 days after D-day my wife has told me to come home!
This has been the most painful experience in my life, but it has changed me into a new man, it has helped my wife understand her faults, and it has made our marriage better.
I thank my Lord Jesus Christ for being beside me and helping me through this time.
We still have work to do on ourselves and our marriage, but that is okay.
I am not leaving the board. I will still be here to offer help (especially on understanding abusive spouses).
Thank you to the board members who helped, argued, and probably wanted to slap me around for not listening to them. I love you all as brothers and sisters & respect you all.


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## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

noas55 said:


> The day I have waited for has finally come. 3 months and 3 days after D-day my wife has told me to come home!
> This has been the most painful experience in my life, but it has changed me into a new man, it has helped my wife understand her faults, and it has made our marriage better.
> I thank my Lord Jesus Christ for being beside me and helping me through this time.
> We still have work to do on ourselves and our marriage, but that is okay.
> ...



Big congratulations to you, Noas! Now the hard work truly begins.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

It looks like I was wrong and you were right. Please accept my sincere apology and good wishes for your marriage.

God bless.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Wow things really turned around for you in a positive way.

Glad things are going well for you.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

BK23 said:


> Big congratulations to you, Noas! Now the hard work truly begins.


I know it. I will not lie. I am scared. Now the trust of her not "walking away" again must be dealt with by me. As I have stated before she knows I will not go through this pain again. Next to losing a child or her death, I can not fathom any greater pain.

Stay focus and keep working on me and my marriage is the goal


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> It looks like I was wrong and you were right. Please accept my sincere apology and good wishes for your marriage.
> 
> God bless.


 I accept, but no apologies were needed. As i stated earlier, we are all brothers and sisters going through similar issues. You had advise and your opinion. I took what I felt I needed & could use. 
I am grateful for your help.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

We are doing great so far, but doctor visit shows I have some medical problems. I have a probable tumor on my Pituitary Gland and this can cause ED issues as well as other major problems later. MRI is schedules for next week.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

YIKE! Hope it turns out.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

noas55 said:


> We are doing great so far, but doctor visit shows I have some medical problems. I have a probable tumor on my Pituitary Gland and this can cause ED issues as well as other major problems later. MRI is schedules for next week.


Noas-

I know we haven't seen eye to eye on a lot of things but I do hope everything turns out alright for you.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

smallsteps said:


> Noas-
> 
> I know we haven't seen eye to eye on a lot of things but I do hope everything turns out alright for you.


Me too.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

MRI shows all is good which baffled the doctor. I have low/normal testosterone level, Prolactin level (?) is too high so these two combined could be cause of ED issue. I begin my testosterone shots today as we attempt to regulate both levels.
The Pituitary Gland (Prolactin hormone) is the one that has doc concerned. This probably has been putting too much out my whole life and is now increasing the amounts as well. Too much will make you infertile and eventually impotent. In women this hormone is what helps them lactate.
Blood work also shows possible cancer somewhere. (I expect colon or skin) Have tests on that stuff soon.
We are doing well and even with all this stress, wife is glad I am home and we are in love.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Sorry noas, the waiting game stinks.

In Dec 2004 stbxh went for a chest xray for asthma. We got a call from the hospital telling us he needed to go back in for a new xray because there was a spot on his lung.

It threw us into a four month nightmare with doctors giving us every horrible prognosis known to man. Turned out it wasn't cancer but sarcoidosis. The process took so long because Lord knows doctors don't work fast and all the tests take forever to schedule. I must say we were very close during that time. It's good the two of you found your way back before all this hit.

Good luck to you. Keep us posted.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

We are still doing great. Wife still dealing with her issues. She is afraid I will leave her if it takes too long. Funny how things turn around on a dime.
I am doing fine. Still weigh between 230-235. Doc does not want me to diet until we figure out what is making blood work show possible cancer. Next Tues is removal of two moles. After that will be prostate. We are holding off on colon stuff due to my Chrohms. We all agree it is probably where the issue is at. but we do not want to see it and then stop looking elsewhere.
I am still working on myself and have not had an anger outburst since we got back together. She has had 2, but she knows she needs to correct this area in herself.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Good luck and prayers for your health and family noah. Stay strong.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

noas55 said:


> We are still doing great. Wife still dealing with her issues. She is afraid I will leave her if it takes too long. Funny how things turn around on a dime.
> I am doing fine. Still weigh between 230-235. Doc does not want me to diet until we figure out what is making blood work show possible cancer. Next Tues is removal of two moles. After that will be prostate. We are holding off on colon stuff due to my Chrohms. We all agree it is probably where the issue is at. but we do not want to see it and then stop looking elsewhere.
> I am still working on myself and have not had an anger outburst since we got back together. She has had 2, but she knows she needs to correct this area in herself.


I do hope your health issues all get solved Noas.

And keep working at it. Both of you.

HM


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

noas55 said:


> We are still doing great. Wife still dealing with her issues. She is afraid I will leave her if it takes too long. Funny how things turn around on a dime.
> I am doing fine. Still weigh between 230-235. Doc does not want me to diet until we figure out what is making blood work show possible cancer. Next Tues is removal of two moles. After that will be prostate. We are holding off on colon stuff due to my Chrohms. We all agree it is probably where the issue is at. but we do not want to see it and then stop looking elsewhere.
> I am still working on myself and have not had an anger outburst since we got back together. She has had 2, but she knows she needs to correct this area in herself.


Glad you posted an update. Concentrate on getting to the bottom of your health issues. I hope they can give you some answers soon.

Don't worry about your weight loss, there will be time for that later. Get everything else in order first.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Long time no see. I took time away from all of you to focus on my wife and family. Things were going great until last few days so here is an update.
We have been going strong since last post here.
My sex issues are better now that I am on proper drug, Health is good. Weight bounces between 235 & 245. I learned to eat again and so i am letting body recuperate from abuse I did to it for 6 months.
Today my wife says she basically has a void inside her that she does not how what it is. Not asking for separation, but more or less a cry for help (in understanding). She says this truly is all her and not me this time. I am a better man, friend, lover, & husband. I have made all the changes that she desired and she is happy with that. This void has her lost(?) Anyway, any help on how to help her or us would be great. She has promised me that this is no where near a separation deal and we will get counseling if it gets worse.
I want to trust her, and she knows it is hard for me to do that after what i went through. I am scared!
I also reminded her that I meant what I said before. I will not nor cannot chase after her again. It damn near killed me last time. 
I really do think it is possible menopause signs and she had that cauterization to help her painful periods. Could this be part of problem? One scared dude right now.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Fascinating. 
?Precheating warning to make it difficult for her to get away with it and thus easier not to?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Scared about what Noas?

You can only fix you.
You can only focus on you and your marriage.

Do not be afraid of what you cannot control nor fix.....

Your wife has issues. Always has.

The key is to be strong, fearless and be the love of her life. All you can do is support her so she can find out what is wrong inside her.

Keep working you and your health.

And never, ever be a fool for her. Encourage her to deal with her issues.

HM


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

I am encouraging and trying to be a friend and husband. As you stated she is having problems. I am here for her as always. 
My fears are manly just being blindsided and lied to. I am also afraid she will make a mistake as I stated months ago. I know she loves me and she just is confused.
I know I can't keep her with me if she decides not to stay as my wife.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

noas55 said:


> I am encouraging and trying to be a friend and husband. As you stated she is having problems. I am here for her as always.
> My fears are manly just being blindsided and lied to. I am also afraid she will make a mistake as I stated months ago. I know she loves me and she just is confused.
> I know I can't keep her with me if she decides not to stay as my wife.


You are seeing clearly Noas.

Your eyes are open.

Do not fear. Be strong for both of you.

HM


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

As hard as this year has been, I have learned so much. God knows I can't go through it all again, but I am a tough old bird. I can get through this little stuff as long as I stay focused, have my friends (even you virtual ones), and keep my Faith.
Hell of a Christmas surprise though.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Fascinating.
> ?Precheating warning to make it difficult for her to get away with it and thus easier not to?


Never any PA cheating but EA was pretty much there. Just one confused, scared, woman. I think she is at that stage now in her recovery (making changes) that it scares her. She is hanging on to her MOTHER attitude strongly and is acting like her mother more than ever. Lord help me..LOL


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

What I meant is she at some level wants to cheat but is giving you warning signs to be able to tell herself she will get caught thus making it easier to not cheat. 

Maybe?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas,

Still trying to nice her out of this?

It doesn't work.

I'm not surprised you're back.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Conrad said:


> noas,
> 
> Still trying to nice her out of this?
> 
> ...


I said the same thing on his other, nearly identical thread.

Hopefully Noah, you mean it when you say you're done chasing her. 

Sorry things turned out this way.



noas55 said:


> Never any PA cheating but EA was pretty much there.


You don't know this, you can't know this. She was along with her girlfriend MANY times. The opportunity was there, the motive was there. You can't believe it didn't happen just because she told you it didn't and because you want to believe it.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

LOL...geez guys. We are still married and such. She is having some issues. We will be going to counselor of some sort I am sure, but she can say she loves me, we are communicating, and we are still having sex. This is a cry for help basically. She has even told her friends that she does not want to leave like last time. There is some THING that is missing in her (her description) that is not letting her be happy.
Yes it can go south again and end up being over, but until she quits officially..the game is still on and win-able.
Even tonight she told me it scares her to know I wont be there like before IF it goes that way. I told her she needed to think of that EVERYTIME the mere thought of leaving goes through her head.
She is afraid and is wanting help. I just wish I knew how to help her.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> What I meant is she at some level wants to cheat but is giving you warning signs to be able to tell herself she will get caught thus making it easier to not cheat.
> 
> Maybe?


Could be. I know I don't know for sure on PA, but I never found proof or any hint of it.
I do think her problem is 25 years with same person, marriage gets dull, needs that spark in her life, mid-age crisis crap. maybe even menopause. 
It could be all, some, or none of these things that everyone is saying. She has state that she just cant figure it out.
All I can do is support her, pray and be there as she needs me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> Could be. I know I don't know for sure on PA, but I never found proof or any hint of it.
> I do think her problem is 25 years with same person, marriage gets dull, needs that spark in her life, mid-age crisis crap. maybe even menopause.
> It could be all, some, or none of these things that everyone is saying. She has state that she just cant figure it out.
> All I can do is support her, pray and be there as she needs me.


In other words, you're going to nice her out of it.

P.S. I used to buy flowers every week. Didn't work for me either.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Conrad above for the win. 

Nicing is to keep her in your corner not win her back from another corner.

Interesting factoid.

My wife seems to be coming back around.

The more alpha I act the more she seems to grumble then ask why then follow then seems more interested in me.

I am looking at buying a business in another city. After X time of no real job it is fish or cut bait time. I have one thing left, a stellar credit rating. In our MC she asks why buy a business. I say three years and it is no longer play time. MC asks what my plan is. I explain. I see a light go on in my wifes head. It did not hurt MC was shooting her arguments down too saying things like, "He already covered this topic before you objected about it." Last night she goes, "When you buy that business maybe we can "christen" the van." I say fine but its a work van. she says, "I know..." BAM!

I dont play this card often but I literally pulled the "This is gonna happen if x or y don't pan out. End of discussion. No more debate." She grumbled then fell into line and is now seeming to be on board. Ive done it maybe ?5? times in 12 years. Usually when her plan is some form of economic suicide.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

weightlifter said:


> Conrad above for the win.
> 
> Nicing is to keep her in your corner not win her back from another corner.
> 
> ...


I am often told - to my face - that the way I'm behaving will not get me what I want.

And, the resulting behavior proves the exact opposite.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I am often told - to my face - that the way I'm behaving will not get me what I want.
> 
> And, the resulting behavior proves the exact opposite.


Are you implying woman lie??

Oh my! What an interesting, original concept.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Are you implying woman lie??
> 
> Oh my! What an interesting, original concept.


Lol...

Lets not get banned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

At the risk of - yet another - banishment, I will say the following:

I put much more stock in what someone does as opposed to what they say.

Noas has now tried this the way his wife told him it would work.

If I were him, upon hearing of her void, I'd be re-thinking that approach.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

If I was Noas I would run out to Home Depot and buy some expanding foam to fill her voids.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

happyman64 said:


> If I was Noas I would run out to Home Depot and buy some expanding foam to fill her voids.


She still feels like she has "nothing to lose"

And, as long as the flowers and the nicey-nice keep rolling in, she's right.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

You are right. Maybe Noas is ready and strong enough to try something new???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

This thread is so old. Imtrying to remember the ea part. Anyone remember what post number?

I remember the separation and gradual return but not the ea.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

weightlifter said:


> This thread is so old. Imtrying to remember the ea part. Anyone remember what post number?
> 
> I remember the separation and gradual return but not the ea.


This is from post #16:
_
I see people saying she is having an affair. I can't see anyway for a physical affair. I know her work schedule and all the extra time recently has been with me. She goes to her married friend's house who I do agree she has an emotional affair with. Of course she does not see that, but she does agree she is more comfortable visiting her and her family than dealing with HER stress at our home.
Infidelity has always been the #1 taboo for both of us and for the kids too. They would abandon her totally and she knows this because our family has always been open on discussion on all things. (of course she has kept her feelings/problems secret, but you know what I mean) As stated earlier, we are Christians. She is lost, faith wise, because she even knows the reasons stated for the separation are against God's Laws (her words).

MY QUESTION IS: Why are so many of you certain it is an affair and not just what she has stated as being true? She never has really been big on sex._

When I read, "she never has really been big on sex"

What ai hear is, "she's never really been big on sex WITH ME"

Noas has - yet another - chance to work on his attractiveness.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Supporting or helping your wife deal with an issue is not nicing. You are suppose to be a team and support each other. 
She knows that any talk of a separation is going to be her loss, even though it hurts me like hell. I told her I cant and will not go through it or do the same thing as the last time because she had her chance.
She insists it is not a separation situation. She has talked to her friends and they all say she needs counseling BEFORE it gets worse. We are currently looking for some counseling for her (us).

My wife has helped me grow and overcome issues within myself over these past 6 months as well as I have helped her. Many people feel she is having empty nest issues and needs someway to cover that void of the children moving out. She wants a dog but feels we cant due to our 23 year old cat. She has stated she wants one when the cat passes on. I personally am working towards getting her one asap for I do feel it will give her a way to show and express her love, care take and raise the dog...sense of fulfillment.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> Supporting or helping your wife deal with an issue is not nicing. You are suppose to be a team and support each other.
> She knows that any talk of a separation is going to be her loss, even though it hurts me like hell. I told her I cant and will not go through it or do the same thing as the last time because she had her chance.
> She insists it is not a separation situation. She has talked to her friends and they all say she needs counseling BEFORE it gets worse. We are currently looking for some counseling for her (us).


Are you going to work on attractiveness this time?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> This is from post #16:
> _
> I see people saying she is having an affair. I can't see anyway for a physical affair. I know her work schedule and all the extra time recently has been with me. She goes to her married friend's house who I do agree she has an emotional affair with. Of course she does not see that, but she does agree she is more comfortable visiting her and her family than dealing with HER stress at our home.
> Infidelity has always been the #1 taboo for both of us and for the kids too. They would abandon her totally and she knows this because our family has always been open on discussion on all things. (of course she has kept her feelings/problems secret, but you know what I mean) As stated earlier, we are Christians. She is lost, faith wise, because she even knows the reasons stated for the separation are against God's Laws (her words).
> ...


Many women are not big on sex. They want it but dont need it as often as men. As far as my wife not wanting sex with me....sure, but that has changed since my ED issue is fixed. Now she is happy in the bedroom.
The weight loss and pills helped make me able to perform as a "normal" man should.
She insists that this situation is not about me. She is happy with ME. Just something in her life that is missing that makes her sad/depressed. Remember our last child is out of school. He lives at home but we he only stops by once a week. I expect he will move out soon.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Are you going to work on attractiveness this time?


I have always been working on it. Weight loss, ED fixed, new clothes and such.
Looking into a new job as well at the hospital.
If you mean Alpha Male stuff... being doing that the whole time too. She does not want a total Alpha male but more of a Alpha and Beta mix which is what i am.
I buy one rose a week. She now has a new hobby of drying flowers that she likes because of it. Sometimes she gets more flowers, but the gifts have slowed down and she understands why. I fully explained everything as to the reasons done and why I backed off. She understands and is fine with that.

She still has some issues struggling with the new ME.
I never was big on holidays or special event days like Anniversaries or birthdays due to my childhood.
She is struggling with me wanting to take time off, make plans, and enjoy the times. Her problem is that after all these years of pain for her she now gets the pleasure. She likes it but has a bitter taste in her mouth. 
Now I am able to have intercourse sometimes she is worn out before I am done. She feels she has failed me. I tell her we always have the next time. 
These are some of the issues she is dealing with.


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

I don't agree with the way you are going about your R, but good luck anyways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

BashfulBull said:


> I don't agree with the way you are going about your R, but good luck anyways.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Appreciate your honesty, but all I can say is that I have been home for 3 months. We do love each other and are working on our marriage. I came back to the forum asking for advice on what her issue might be and all I have seen is the same remarks of
"I am doing it wrong. You will fail, etc"
I hope one day this board realizes that there is more than one way to save a marriage. Some of the advice that is given can and has probably caused some harm in relationships that could have been saved
If my marriage fails I can say I had extra time with the woman I love, and who I know loves me.
If my wife is not wanting a separation and is asking for help to keep from going there....that is a good thing. More than I ever got from her in the past.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> In other words, you're going to nice her out of it.
> 
> P.S. I used to buy flowers every week. Didn't work for me either.


Funny, I did the same. And same result.


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## smallsteps (Feb 23, 2013)

Ok noas I've stayed quiet and let these guys do all the talking while I follow along, it's time you hear it from a woman's point of view. A woman who was married almost as long as you. I know you and I have not seen eye to eye on a lot of things but I really do hope you listen and give consideration to what I say.

Yes my stbxh left me for someone else but things had not been right for years. I was not happy. I believe this came as a result of two miscarriages I suffered in 2006 and the thought of "empty nest syndrome". We got a dog in 2007, who became the "fill in " for the baby we couldn't have. She became a spoiled dog, who thinks she's a kid. Guess what? Temporary fix. I was still sad. 

The years were going on, my kids getting older, me not knowing what the second half of my life would bring. I put on weight, slept a lot, sex was not great. I was one of those "I don't need it too often" gals. At least that's what I thought.

We went on. He did nice things but we also had our issues. He was a control freak, very into himself, had a short temper. Truth is I stayed because it's what I was "supposed" to do. You marry once and make it work. I'm a loyal person, I give you my heart, I don't share it with anyone else. It did not mean I was happy. I wasn't. The honest truth is I should have been the one to stray, but I didn't. I didn't have it in me to do it.

Now I'm fine. Yes the end of my marriage was devastating. There are still small episodes of "I can't believe he can be such an idiot" that hit me. When it comes to the kids, he can still get to me with his antics but in general, I'm happy now. I realize he did me a favor. 

Actually looking back right now, things were probably too far gone by the time our marriage broke down. 

Noas, these guys have a point. You tried it the nice way. You "niced" your way through winning her back. You threw in some alpha traits that got her to notice you again. It worked for a while but now she's back to having a "void". See a problem here? Nothing was really fixed the first time around. Yes, its good to help your partner through their crisis but this is not a new relationship where you can talk it out and set ground rules and boundaries before things get bad. You are dealing with 25 years, old habits and preconceptions about each other.

She needs counseling NOW. You both need MC now. You need to stand your ground, no wavering. You cannot be the "yes dear" guy. I'm not saying turn into a neanderthal but you can't keep catering to her every whim, it won't work. She'll just step all over you. 

No relationship will ever work without healthy, respectable boundaries. I've learned that this past year - you need to learn it too


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks SS. I hear you and know you speak the truth on my way back in. We do have respectful boundaries and I am not wavering. I have stated it many times over....I am not doing the same things as during the separation. 
I pray the marriage can be saved, but I know it could fail too. The difference is that I was totally devastated by the separation. Life was out of control. If she leaves it will be over , I will hurt, cry and such but it will be different. I know it and she knows it. I could never trust her with my heart again. She even sees me struggling with it now and it hurts her.
I know there is no magical solution to fix the "void", but I sure will do all I can because I love my wife. Through all the pain, tears, sorrow, and frustration.....I do love my wife


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

'Void' is just women speak for 'I'm about to leave you."

Although you know I hope that's not true. But it probably is.
Sorry, man.


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## Ms. GP (Jul 8, 2013)

I hear a lot of what you are doing to fix the marriage, but I still haven't heard what she is bringing to the table. It takes two to work on a marriage and it usually works best if both parties work on themselves first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Noas, You cannot own this void your wife is experiencing. Its all on her, and has nothing to do with you. She needs IC.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Ms. GP said:


> I hear a lot of what you are doing to fix the marriage, but I still haven't heard what she is bringing to the table. It takes two to work on a marriage and it usually works best if both parties work on themselves first.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is talking with friends and are looking to get her into counseling (me included when requested) She does not want to leave. She says she is not even at that point. This feeling scares her because she cant control it and is afraid it MIGHT LEAD to that. That is her fear.
I wish I could find some books on this issue to help her. She would read them.
We are finally going to be getting back to church. Going to a new one and eventually we will get help from the pastor and its MC group.
I heard that when I made my changes it could scare her off because she felt inadequate. As I have lost weight, got my SEX back, more confidence, and such...I can tell she is doubting her appearance, beauty, and desirability. I give her assurances on how I see her and desire her, but it has not helped much.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Noas, You cannot own this void your wife is experiencing. Its all on her, and has nothing to do with you. She needs IC.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hear you. I can't own it or even be responsible for it. I am just wanting to help and support her as much as I can. Hoping to get IC for her soon.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

wilderness said:


> 'Void' is just women speak for 'I'm about to leave you."
> 
> Although you know I hope that's not true. But it probably is.
> Sorry, man.


Hope you are wrong. We have discussed what the next separation will be like if there is one and she knows it will not be pretty for her. 
I told her I put her first last time, if a next time comes around, I am first. I cant do a repeat like last time. I will not be rude or black out, but it will not even like a friendship, but more as if we were divorced. I would not be able to trust her with my heart again therefore there could be no recovery. I hate saying this or even thinking it, but I know I must move on if we get to this point.
I told her I can wait for ages to help her overcome this issue or any others. As long as we are a team we are strong and together as a married couple, but if she walks it is 99% over, no excuses will be allowed.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Noas, You cannot own this void your wife is experiencing. Its all on her, and has nothing to do with you. She needs IC.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In fact, if noas owns this "void", he will be feeding it.

That's what he's been doing this entire time.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> She does not want a total Alpha male but more of a Alpha and Beta mix which is what i am.
> I buy one rose a week.


Yeah, ok.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> I fully explained everything as to the reasons done and why I backed off. She understands and is fine with that.


Do you believe you are mysterious to her at all?

I hear you telling us how you've explained this to her. You backed off and explained it. What don't you explain to her?

The only person in my life I explain things to is my boss.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Do you believe you are mysterious to her at all?
> 
> I hear you telling us how you've explained this to her. You backed off and explained it. What don't you explain to her?
> 
> The only person in my life I explain things to is my boss.


Yeah, I use to be the same way.

I explain myself to her on what I am doing because she did not understand why I did things in the past. Some of those things hurt her and led us down this road. It helps her understand that I am NOT regressing, but making the changes necessary to get life back to a more normal and realistic scheme. 
AMP post a really good post in the Reconciliation section of my thread to help me understand what the wife's VOID was. I agreed with it and even showed her what Amp's wife went through. She said it hit her feelings just right and she felt better knowing she was not alone nor should feel bad about herself. :smthumbup: Now we know what the problem is and that there is no harm in how she feels. It will take time, but we can overcome this big bump in the road just as we have overcame the others. We have made some good strides on beginning to get her to become more emotionally connected to me.

We do not strive to be mysterious to each other. We have our mysteries, but we also make sure there are not too many secrets.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Do you believe you are mysterious to her at all?
> 
> I hear you telling us how you've explained this to her. You backed off and explained it. What don't you explain to her?
> 
> The only person in my life I explain things to is my boss.


In my experience NOT explaining and discussing has been the root of many problems. Many of our issues as a couple are around effective communication.

Not saying that is true for everyone, but within our relationship dynamic it is a no brainer.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Wazza said:


> In my experience NOT explaining and discussing has been the root of many problems. Many of our issues as a couple are around effective communication.
> 
> Not saying that is true for everyone, but within our relationship dynamic it is a no brainer.


It is possible to have too much of a good thing.

In this case, it appears likely.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I am going to throw this out there cause there seems to be a bit of disagreement about what "explaining" actually means. 

I find that that my "relationship explanations" are most _effective_ when limited to things like,

1. What upsets me (very often)
2. What I want (often enough)
3. Financial issues (not very often)
4. Why I love her (when she asks, Mother's Day and Birthdays)

I don't explain why I do the things I do or why I want something. That would seem to invite her to criticize, try to argue with me or try to talk me out of it. I am just not interested in arguing with her about any of that. 

She is always welcome to make her own observations, make suggestions or describe her feelings at any time.

I just don't believe that it serves much purpose to do much more explaining. Too much of a good thing indeed. 

Like Noas, I made the changes I needed to make. She noticed. When she brings up the old Tron and the old $hit that I used to do, I say that was a long time ago and I am not that guy anymore...end of conversation. 

Noas, I think this is where you are. You have made the changes you need to make. It is time to stop kissing her azz and just be the guy that she can love and respect. She will need to do the rest.

Always stay active and healthy. Take care of yourself. Always be steady and calm. Always be cool not cold. Always be creative. Be mysterious when you want to be. These things are attractive. Doormats are not. Instinctively you know this.

If she likes presents, get her presents every so often. If she stops appreciating it, or you don't get any mileage out of it then stop.

If she likes spending time with you, then do that. If she is *****ing at you the whole time then go hunting. 

If she likes lots of sex, then by all means lay her like tile. 

Maybe she is like Amplexor's W and it will just take time. 

If she isn't, and none of it works, and you are still disconnected or she continues to have that "void", then you will need to figure out when enough is enough.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

The counterpoint. And maybe it is that my relationship is different from yours Tron and Conrad.

Mrs Wazza likes to please people, say and do the right thing. Always a front. And then occasionally she gets it out of balance. She stews on grievances (real or imagined) and reaches a crisis point where she explodes. Her affair was one such instance.

Keeping communication channels open creates a safety valve, a way to air issues before they become too problematic. It gets her talking.

I on the other hand am very comfortable in my own skin, very sure of myself. I don't feel a compulsive need to explain things to her (or justify them!) but I don't mind telling her if she asks. And if she has an issue with something I am doing, I don't mind considering compromises. 

Where I probably have common ground with Tron and Conrad, my explanations are never seeking approval. If she doesn't like what I think, that doesn't make me wrong. If I compromise it is a gift to her, not an admission of failure on my part.

When I read through this thread, I empathised with the explosion of long nursed grievances that led to the situation where the woman I loved was in a horrible headspace saying all sorts of horrible things. I wonder whether better communication would have avoided the whole problem. Because that was my life circa wife's affair, at which point communication was clearly a problem.

The other thing, I am old enough that my wife the friend and companion is increasingly important to me. Not that my wife the lover is not important, but the mix is definitely changing.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> 4. Why I love her (when she asks, Mother's Day and Birthdays)


Try doing it - not too often - at unexpected times. Every instance there is predictable. That's not going to make you Austin Powers, international man of mystery, to her! 

I have a stationery kit where occasionally I will write a little note of some kind and put it where she will find it. As soon as she sees the colour of the paper she knows it is one of those notes.

But not so often that she would take it for granted.

(And yes, I got that idea from TAM)


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Wazza said:


> Try doing it - not too often - at unexpected times. Every instance there is predictable. That's not going to make you Austin Powers, international man of mystery, to her!
> 
> I have a stationery kit where occasionally I will write a little note of some kind and put it where she will find it. As soon as she sees the colour of the paper she knows it is one of those notes.
> 
> ...


And, it's entirely possible that Noas wife is moving the goalposts.

Unbelieveable once explained it this way.

Hey, I've got this puma. This puma will jump through a hoop for me. Even when I hold this hoop over my head, this amazing puma will still manage to jump through it.

NOW, let's set the hoop on fire....


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza, 

I have some personal experience with people pleaser women. Fortunately Mrs Tron is not one of them, but she does care very much about appearances. And lord have mercy, does she have the memory of an elephant and carry a grudge.

Like a lot of women, she needs regular and consistent reassurance of her place in my life and how I feel about her. And like you I've left post-it notes and written letters over the years. The good thing about my wife is that when she gets really mad, I can always count on her to throw away or burn all my old notes...so every so often I get to start all over and recycle those old messages. 

To me the key is not to get into this habit so much that it becomes an expectation, an entitlement. It should always be a bonus. And you are absolutely right, when they take it for granted, it is time to stop.

You will get no argument from me, poor communication is a consistent problem in troubled marriages. We talk a lot about verbal as well as non-verbal or emotional communication around here. Both are important. All talk and no action certainly is not going get much traction.

Like you, I always try to answer her questions as thoughtfully as I can. I am more of an introvert so I am not going to normally offer a whole lot more than that. I don't talk for the sake of talking.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> And, it's entirely possible that Noas wife is moving the goalposts.
> 
> Unbelieveable once explained it this way.
> 
> ...


Agree. It is entirely possible. Or it is possible that Noas wife had a genuine crisis and needed to work through some stuff.

Each relationship is different. The power dynamics determine the approach. My approach is not the only valid one, and it is not right for everyone, but it is what worked for me. If I had followed the advice given to Noas in this thread I would not be married today. 

Noas has to decide whether his wife is sincere.

So she says she has this void, and she is struggling. Would you rather she didn't say anything?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Conrad said:


> And, it's entirely possible that Noas wife is moving the goalposts.
> 
> Unbelieveable once explained it this way.
> 
> ...


Noas isn't ok w that. Are you Noas?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> And, it's entirely possible that Noas wife is moving the goalposts.
> 
> Unbelieveable once explained it this way.
> 
> ...


I am not sure we know enough about Noas' wife to determine whether or not this is an issue.

It certainly can be a big issue when dealing with entitled or disordered persons.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Hey Noas' when is she going to put interest in your "void" - how about that?

Does she ever ask what you are missing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> So she says she has this void, and she is struggling. Would you rather she didn't say anything?


No, I would rather she say something. And hopefully I would be aware enough to recognize if she was indeed moving the goalposts.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Wazza said:


> Agree. It is entirely possible. Or it is possible that Noas wife had a genuine crisis and needed to work through some stuff.
> 
> Each relationship is different. The power dynamics determine the approach. My approach is not the only valid one, and it is not right for everyone, but it is what worked for me. If I had followed the advice given to Noas in this thread I would not be married today.
> 
> ...


I'd rather hear about what she was going to actually do.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Wazza said:


> In my experience NOT explaining and discussing has been the root of many problems. Many of our issues as a couple are around effective communication.
> 
> Not saying that is true for everyone, but within our relationship dynamic it is a no brainer.


Exactly. This is what our problem was. This is also why I did not try the 180. I had already been doing most of it unintentionally and hurt her w/o knowing it. If I had done 180 she would have ran away for sure.

Mystery and secrets between us have never been desired by us. We enjoy the comfort of KNOWING each other. Part of our problem now is getting that trust back in knowing each other


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I'd rather hear about what she was going to actually do.


Fair enough, but what if she doesn't know?


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

First off, I am not cool with anyone trash talking my wife or making light of her issues. That is not what this board is suppose to be about. You want to trash someone keep it on me.

Her issues are real. Her tears and heartache tell me this. As I posted early she agrees her "void" is pretty much that she must own up to her own issues after I have fixed myself (continuing), come to accept that my changes have been made. quit holding past occurrences as my normal behavior now. She has to become emotionally connected with me again...just as AMP's wife had to. She does love me and we show it several times daily. 
I have backed off the gifts so they are more surprising. 

There are no hoops to jump and I am not a trained dog. You only know me on this board. If you even had a clue to the real me you would know that. I have to tone down myself at home to even have a home life. I don't care what people think of me nor do I need their acceptance. The only people that matter to me is my family and kids. Many people think I am a big jerk until they come to know me. I am dedicated and will protect my friends and loved ones viciously. This is one thing that my wife is afraid of.... if we ever went to a separation stage again I would show her the vicious and callous side in court and in life. I don't want to, but it might happen especially if there are lies or affairs involved after this last separation.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I'd rather hear about what she was going to actually do.


Counseling and patience, love, & understanding from me as we walk through this together. If we find anything else that will help she wants to do it. We are looking for books at this time.
She is also praying on the matter and seeking inside herself to make changes that she needs.

As hard as this is for me, I know it must be torture for her. I can only imagine how I would feel, if I felt the way she has described it, towards her. I recently repeated my vows of "staying for better or worse, sickness and health, etc" and assured her I am here for her.
This may be her issues, but it took two to get to the point of her leaving... I feel it is only right for both of us to work together, hand in hand, side by side to fix our marriage


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> As hard as this is for me, I know it must be torture for her. I can only imagine how I would feel, if I felt the way she has described it, towards her. I recently repeated my vows of "staying for better or worse, sickness and health, etc" and assured her I am here for her.


So, there's no risk for her.

She can stay with you if she wishes, or she can waste your time and pick someone else.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> So, there's no risk for her.
> 
> She can stay with you if she wishes, or she can waste your time and pick someone else.


In what circumstances does that become untrue? A while back everyone told Noas she was blowing smoke. Relationships involve risk. You can manage it but can't avoid it.


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Conrad said:


> So, there's no risk for her.
> 
> She can stay with you if she wishes, or she can waste your time and pick someone else.


Where do you get there is no risk? I guess you never had doubts or were hurt by your own feelings of inadequacy with your wife. 

I do believe she loves me. She has fears of losing me in me or her leaving.
Those 2 sentences state all anyone needs to see as far as a risk.
If she did not love me, I would not be home. She is still recovering from her issues and she has become scared. Nothing wrong with me loving her enough to sacrifice my personal time and feelings for her to help her out.
If she decides to walk then her fears will be realized and nothing I can do about that.

A marriage is by choice by both people. It is obvious some people on this board chose to run from the pain & anguish instead of trying to do all to save their broken marriage. I chose the path to stay and fight until victory or bitter end. That my friends takes courage. Yes it may be stupid, but they are two different meanings.
"Take care of yourself first!!!!" seems to be the battle cry I keep hearing. A marriage is a partnership. If one is struggling the other carries the load. 
Might be why divorce is so rampant in our society.

BTW she does not want any other person. We have plans for our 25th Anniversary as well as vacations. Her words & actions speak volumes of her desires to be with me at times. It is when her fears creep in that cause problems


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> Where do you get there is no risk? I guess you never had doubts or were hurt by your own feelings of inadequacy with your wife.
> 
> I do believe she loves me. She has fears of losing me in me or her leaving.
> Those 2 sentences state all anyone needs to see as far as a risk.
> ...


How does this respond to what I said?

She has no risk.

She either decides the "void" persists (ie: you aren't good enough) and she moves on. Or, at some future date, she can say "it's ok now".

She has all the control - and has had from the very start.

That's not leadership.

It's submission.

What is "she" going to do about your relationship, other than give you a report card?


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

noas55 said:


> First off, I am not cool with anyone trash talking my wife or making light of her issues. That is not what this board is suppose to be about. You want to trash someone keep it on me.
> 
> Her issues are real. Her tears and heartache tell me this. As I posted early she agrees her "void" is pretty much that she must own up to her own issues after I have fixed myself (continuing), come to accept that my changes have been made. quit holding past occurrences as my normal behavior now. She has to become emotionally connected with me again...just as AMP's wife had to. She does love me and we show it several times daily.
> I have backed off the gifts so they are more surprising.
> ...


Let's see, in one post we have the complete victim triangle:

Light blue= White knight/rescuer

Green= victim thinking

Red= Persecutor

Noas, attempt to stay in the middle of the triangle. I will opine that most of your posts resonate with "rescuer". 

Living on the corners never bodes well.

My two cents. I wish you luck!


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## noas55 (Jun 25, 2013)

Threestrikes - I understand what you are saying. That post was primarily responses to many different posts.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

noas55 said:


> Threestrikes - I understand what you are saying. That post was primarily responses to many different posts.


His analysis is spot on.

Take it to heart.

Make this a better year for you.


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