# Somebody out there. Help us. Please read this.



## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

Hello There 

I am looking for help and advice. I'm not even sure of the questions I should be asking but I hope that there is someone out there to help me. I'm looking for constructive help. I'm really desperate. 

Background..
Myself and my wife started going out when we were 17. We are both now 32. We got married 8 years ago (when we were about 24). We are both professional, have good university degrees and have good jobs. About 6 years ago, I started up my own company which has grown quickly. We are both quite sensitive as people and in many ways, it's this that might have brought us together in the early day. We both had quite hard teenage years - being bullied and developing quite low self-confidence. Our friends would probably call us a real success story today though. We have never been unfaithful to each other. 

The Story then..
Our first years together from the age of 17 were amongst the best in my life. We literally could not breathe without each other. Every minute we were apart was painful. We were that fairytale love story. We lived far apart because of school - and longed to be with each other all the time. 

The Story now..
Fifteen years later it's almost the extreme opposite. We work hard in the week, we fight pretty much the whole weekend. We recover and then start the week again. We have no intimacy at all. We are both on antidepressants. We are treading on egg shells around each other the whole time, not quite sure when the next argument will start. On the subject of arguments, they get very very serious. Sometimes I think they do not operate in the bounds of a normal argument. When we argue, it almost feels like our whole world is sucked out of us. We come away hopeless, sad and even more depressed. These go scenarios go on for hours and even days.

Our friends around us - many who married later - are all having kids. This makes us even more sad as we both used to dream together of being wonderful parents. 

I feel I hide behind my work - to stop spending any time together. As much as I hate work as I'm very busy, it, in some ways, is a useful distraction.

I feel like we put on an act when we are out with friends and family. Many of whom would be shocked if they really knew how hard things are for us. It makes it worse because I think we know and see what has become of us. 

Over the years we have seen one counselor and six months ago started seeing another one. 

Where did it all start?...
To give a fuller picture of some of what we have been through which might explain where we are at, and maybe any advice:

- When we first got married - for many years, I ended up doing most of the the 'business of life' activities. Cleaning, washing, keeping in touch with people, finances, paying bills, other household day-to-day stuff. My wife came from a very privalaged background and didn't have to do much. And when we got married, didn't get involved with much. Not because she was a 'princess' but I think it was because she was used to me doing it , or didn't want to work out how/why to get involved. This put a lot of pressure on me for I was in my first job, newly married, and trying to build a life for us. She didn't have a job in the early days. Having to manage work and home and the pressures of being newly married with limited money really took it's toll on me. My depression worsened during this period of about 4 years.

- We decided to wait to have penetrative sex until we got married. We had a number of sexual difficulties and in many ways still have them. We were unable to consummate our marriage on our wedding night. And for many months and even years could still not. Even this is an area that I had to try and get help on - amongst all the other things. We went to see some specialists and eventually managed to consummate our marriage almost 3.5 years later. My wife had vaganismis and I think over the period, because of all the anxiety associated with sex - I started to develop my own problems too. I wouldn't really say we have sorted this problem out fully yet either. 

- We have fought about a number of other issues over our time. But not just fights - I think they have caused quite big damage to us as we have fought so often about them and in so much depth. These have included my wife learning how to drive (to take some pressure off of me, e.g. going to supermarket, other chores etc.) They have also included things like wearing a watch, wearing contact lenses. Not doing these things all had their impacts - not seeing things we need to buy or replace because wife couldn't see, being late because no watch etc. I know they seem silly, but the practicalities sometimes make all the difference in life.

- We have fought about my wife being lazy extensively. For many years, and from many people - it was all take, and no give from her. She used to sleep a heck of a lot. Walk around the house in her pyjamas. That used to, and in some ways, still makes me angry as it is almost a depiction of all that I don't like about her and the way we have lived our life. When I get most angry is when her laziness costs us money. For example, she would not look after her expense receipts for work and not claim them. I would find them on the floor, falling out of her bag. This made me extremely cross, making me think to myself, "I'm trying so hard to save us money, to work hard etc.." - why wouldn't she claim her expenses back. Why should she subsidise her company just because she can't be bothered or doesn't remember to turn her expenses? 

- On the subject we have fought extensively about her remembering things. And how forgetful she was about things that were important. Whether it's to clear out the fridge, use things bought from the supermarket or even apply a discount voucher for money off something

- We fight really bad. We both have bad things we bring to an argument. They get heated, involve lots of swearing from my wife and on occasion she has hit me too. That's not so say I'm a saint as she points out - she thinks I'm passive aggressive. 

Oddly..
- The amount of times we have said we are going to end our marriage are probably more times than we have been intimate! 
- Yet we are still here together for something keeps us here. I don't know what it is. Sometimes I think it's that I'm worried for what will happen to us in life. We have spent so many years together, almost more so than being apart. 


Where are we now...
- In the last 8 months or so (and even before), my wife started to make a turnaround. 
- She started running the house with me, doing chores, going shopping. 
- As I started to get more busier with work, she started to take on more responsibilities such that now she probably does more than I do now!
- Work pressures are still very high for both of us
- The weekends are a nightmare with a full blow out argument about the littlest things


And why am I sad...
- I'm still angry at her and it comes out in the way I am with her
- I don't like her very much at all. And sadly she constantly says to me "Why do you hate me so much"?. I'm not in any way violent or do not show hate. But she says it comes out in everything I do and in all the interactions we have. And I think it is true. 
- Everything in our life is a memory for me of how much I had to do and the injustice of it all. From organising holidays, worrying about finances to fixing something in the house. Even our whole house purchase I had to manage.
- All our friends are having children and I'm conscious about the biological clock
- I worry that we have simply gone too far
- Sometimes, I feel like I'm mourning our relationship and all that we have become 

- I know everyone always says don't look at other couples or people and compare yourselves, but seriously - could anyone have had it as bad? 

The thing is, something is making us stay together. I'm not sure, but if we could just work out how to 'be' again, step by step maybe we might have a future.

I'm desperate for views as I have never spoken to anyone about this.

Help. Please.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Oh, dear.

You have both worked hard, sadly you have both worked hard to mess it all up.

You both need counselling. Very good, very deep counselling. Ask your doctor for some recommendations. Not A recommendation, but several as you might have to pick a choose to find one that works for you. Also, a qualified sex counsellor would be a good idea.

Are you members of a church? If so, could your priest, pastor or vicar help?

My best wishes to both of you.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

1) Marriage counseling for you both
2) Independent counseling for you
3) Read The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by John Gottman
4) You guys need to learn to sympathize with each other instead of seeing every argument as a challenge to prove why you're right and the other one is wrong
5) Learn how to communicate in a non-confrontational, non-accusatory manner

That's what jumps out at me, others will have different viewpoints


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Worried, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm so sorry you and your W are both in such pain. As to what is causing the pain, one possibility worth considering that your W suffers from moderate to strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. I therefore join MattMatt and Dave in suggesting that you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with.


worried12345 said:


> My wife had vaganismis.


Having vaginismus does not imply your W has BPD. I note, however, that Therapist Shari Schreiber lists _vaginismus_ as one of the behavioral traits that are common for BPDers (i.e., those having strong BPD traits). Schreiber explains that vaginismus "is a somatic issue, generally brought on by unresolved childhood incest or sexual abuse trauma. At its core, this is a very deep fear of closeness, and inability to trust another." See the last two paragraphs in Schreiber's article at IF LOOKS COULD KILL - Anatomy of a Borderline. Did your W experience any abandonment or abuse in childhood?


> We fight really bad. ...involve lots of swearing from my wife and on occasion she has hit me too.


Because you don't say how bad her "hitting" is, I don't know whether she would be considered a "spouse batterer." I will simply observe, then, that the hitting is _not a good sign_. An academic study of spouse batterers found that nearly all of the them have a personality disorder and that _half of them have full blown BPD_. See Roger Melton's description of the Dutton study (British Columbia, pub. 1993) at Romeo's Bleeding - When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong -- Health & Wellness -- Sott.net.


> The amount of times we have said we are going to end our marriage are probably more times than we have been intimate!


A hallmark of BPDer behavior is the endless cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back. I explain the underlying reason for that cycle (i.e., the BPDer's two great fears) in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. This cycle is well known. Indeed, a poll taken at BPDfamily.com reports that 23% of the partners of BPDers go through 10 or more breakups before finally walking out of the toxic relationship. See PERSPECTIVES: Relationship recycling [romantic partners].


> We have fought about a number of other issues ...my wife learning how to drive ... wearing a watch, wearing contact lenses....
> We have fought about my wife being lazy extensively.


If your W has strong BPD traits, her emotional development is stuck at about age four. This could explain, then, why you've seen such immature behavior and why you've taken on the role of being more of a parent than a husband. Importantly, you deserve to have a mature husband/wife relationship instead of a parent/child relationship.


> Over the years we have seen one counselor and six months ago started seeing another one.


If your W has strong BPD traits, marriage counseling will be a waste of time because her issues -- e.g., inability to trust, to regulate her emotions, and to be empathetic -- go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills. She therefore should be seeing an IC (ideally, a clinical psychologist). ICs, however, are loath to tell a BPDer the name of her disorder (to protect her and because insurance won't cover BPD treatments). 

There is little chance, then, that an IC will tell her -- much less you -- the name of her disorder if she actually does have strong BPD traits. This is why I suggested, above, that your first step is to see YOUR OWN psychologist to obtain a candid professional opinion.


> we have fought extensively about her remembering things.


It is common for the spouse of a BPDer to complain about forgetfulness. To escape the stress of daily interactions, a BPDer typically will frequently escape many times throughout the day in daydreams (a mild form of dissociation). Hence, although the BPDer may appear to be listening, she can be a thousand miles away, being lost in a daydream.


> I'm desperate for views as I have never spoken to anyone about this.


Again, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you are waiting for an appointment, you read three short BPD descriptions to see if the traits sound familiar. One is article 9 at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. 

The second is Schreiber's description of "waif BPDers" at BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved.. (Although you've not describe any waif behavior occurring lately, it may well describe what you saw in the beginning years of your marriage.) 

The third is my description of typical BPD behavior in Maybe's thread (mentioned above) at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If any of those three descriptions rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to other good online resources. Take care, Worried.


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

Thank you everyone for all your help so far. Please keep messages coming, I need as much help as I can get.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

Worried, you said you're wife has started to come around about 8 months ago. Has she started to get more independent or is she back sliding now?

When she does make a change for good, do you encourage her or acknowledge it?

There is always two sides of a coin. So if your wife were on TAM, what do you think she would say about you? Everybody is different so everyone will have their own perspective. Not blaming you by asking that.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

I like your post and can tell you youre not alone. You should be using dilators. 
It seems from your post that your wife is trying to come round but youre not letting her. You have too much anger in you and not prepared to let go. You dont say why you cant have kids. Although you think everyone thinks youre a perfect couple you can be sure that most know the truth.
I dont think you really need counsellors. But you really need to talk to your wife. Try and get her to come on here. If you cant talk write a letter. Your situation can be saved, its not as bad as it sounds. In your arguments with her try not to dig up old stories. Keep to the present. If she is improving let her know you are pleased about it. In other words help her along. If she does something wrong dont always make an argument about it. Better write a letter to her than tell her to her face. She doesnt seem to be doing it 'wilfully' or to spite you.
As I say things will improve if you let them.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

i have seen so many divorces just divorce if you are not willing to work and if you think you are not 100% in this. If you do not have passion, intimacy, commitment than it is lost. 

i am not in the minority of people or maybe its majority who seem to think if you buy ____ book than you can "save" the marriage. LOL!!! is all i have to say


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## 3Blessings (Jul 8, 2012)

Hi I'm new here too......i with the others.. your relatinship can be saved... take time to talk toa counselor and pray........you can start praying yourself, as The Father to bring both of you together....do it like everyday...make it your priority..it will show in couple of days the change in your attitude..... your anger will will soon melt.... and eventually that loving memories you have will come back to you and these change will trigger change in her. 

It could be that not having children yet up to now.. and her condition/ may making her so insecure and depress and dont know how to share that pain to you. 
DOes she like children?
Please be more loving and forgiving.. increase that lovingness even if it hurts for you ..........cuz i believe that lovingness will ultimately melt any barriers................


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

my comment may seem not helpful so sorry about that

i guess try marriage counseling and best of luck


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

worried12345 said:


> - I know everyone always says don't look at other couples or people and compare yourselves, but seriously - could anyone have had it as bad?


The reason people say not to compare yourself to others is that you can't possibly see their reality from your outside perspective. To answer your question, yes! Others have it as bad as you *think* you have it, and I say *think* because the depth of your despair is more your imagination and is of your own making (the cause and effect of everyone's life) than you are able to discern from your involved perspective. 

I will it prove to you:

1. Didn't you say your friends would call your marriage a success story? See there. It isn't possible to look at anyone and think you know their reality. You are living what you consider your own personal hell, but no one would be the wiser.

2. You know the divorce rate is said to be higher than 50 percent. See there. Others are living their hell just like you are living yours. It's just that some (over 50%) decided to call it quits, while you feel there is something keeping the two of you together. However, there is no invisible umbilical cord supplying life-saving nuturing to your marriage. There is no tether that ties the two of you together. There is no anvil that anchors you firmly in place. And, there is no glue to prevent your marriage from falling apart. You simply have not decided or don't have the wherewithall to end it. What you don't yet understand is that you both have to be all those things that make the marriage a success in order for it to truly be successful. Success, however, is not just that you stay together. Success means you both are making the effort to ensure the marriage works to a satisfactory degree on both parts.

3. People endure much worse than anything you described here. You just don't know that because you are not in their skin and cannot glean or extract telepathically to know what they are going through. 

The fact is, there is nothing new under the sun. Every experience and every story has been told by different people with different names. There's always the cause and effect scenario, so it had to begin somewhere. What that means is because you, and not your wife, are the one who came here for advice, then you are the one who has to own up to his own contribution. And not only that, but you are also the one who has to begin effecting the change in the dynamics of the marital relationship. You did your part (problems of your own making) in bringing the marriage to this place in time, and you have to do your part in making it a better marriage into the future.



worried12345 said:


> - I don't like her very much at all. And sadly she constantly says to me "Why do you hate me so much"?. I'm not in any way violent or do not show hate. But she says it comes out in everything I do and in all the interactions we have. And I think it is true.


We are a society of judgmental people. For some reason, everyone thinks it is their right (and way too often their pastime) to judge others. The result of their judgment is they criticize and talk about other people. 

Like I said before, there is nothing new under the sun. Something that people in a committed relationship have a tendency to do is judge each other due to close proximity and due to their own preconceived notions of what they feel they want in a partner. What makes so very much like most other people is you did this exact same thing to your wife. You never accepted your wife for who, what, and how she was. You judged and criticized her because she wasn't who, what, and how you thought she should be. Rather than accepting SHE WAS the woman you married, you judged her based on the woman you WANTED to be married to, but that woman was a phantom figure - just a figment of your imagination. You didn't grow to dislike the woman you married. You grew to dislke that she wasn't your phantom figure. It would have been nice, no doubt, had she turned out to be your ideal woman. What you very quickly forgot though was that she was your ideal woman when you married her. You forgot that was the reason you married her. 

If you think about it, you will realize and accept that there is no way you could possibly live up to every woman's expectations. You have your own idiosyncracies, your own ways, your own ideals, your own patterns, your own abilities, your own inclinations, your own codes and standards to live by, and all of that is based on your own upbringing and your own experiences. You have to allow your wife to be all of that on her own also......and for all of the same reasons. You acknolwledge her lifestyle growing up, and then turned around to expect more than she was able to produce.

Then, you judged and criticized her for it all the while, at every pass, and every step of the way. I wonder if you patiently tried to teach or show her, or if you went straight into criticizing everything she didn't know how to do.



worried12345 said:


> - I'm still angry at her and it comes out in the way I am with her
> - Everything in our life is a memory for me of how much I had to do and the injustice of it all. From organising holidays, worrying about finances to fixing something in the house. Even our whole house purchase I had to manage.


It will be helpful for you to first forgive yourself for judging your wife and resenting she wasn't more capable of being more than she was capable of being. You will be in a better frame of mind to release the past resentments. They don't even apply anymore, yet you hang on to them as if they do. Your resentment now defines you and is the framework within which you view your wife and your marriage.

It will be helpful for you to then forgive your wife for not being someone other than who she was. This will help you learn to accept who she is and appreciate her recent efforts to change for the better. You will realize she probably made those changes in effort to please you.



worried12345 said:


> - All our friends are having children and I'm conscious about the biological clock


You didn't discuss this with any details for our benefit, so I'm curious to know the circumstances. Are you judging her again because she is unable to bear children? Why do you lament not having any kids. But, frankly, as bad as you feel the marital relationship to be and coupled with all your dislike and resentment, I think you would view not having any children as a blessing.



worried12345 said:


> - Sometimes, I feel like I'm mourning our relationship and all that we have become


Per my above comments, I think you mourn what you thought the marriage would be based on who, what, and how you thought your wife should be.



worried12345 said:


> The thing is, something is making us stay together. I'm not sure, but if we could just work out how to 'be' again, step by step maybe we might have a future.


Now that you know the steps you have to take, you just need to learn how to organize and apply them. This is not something you and your wife can do yourselves. You need marriage counseling to guide you along. You also mentioned briefly about a problem vaginismus that is yet unresolved. Counseling may help in that area also. If all else fails, the two of you should at least be able to make the decision to call it quits. Even that would be better than staying together unhappily.

Sorry if there are misspellings or missing words due to thinking faster than my fingers can type. I didn't have time to proofread and edit, but I hope I was helpful in some way.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

worried12345 said:


> And why am I sad...
> - I'm still angry at her and it comes out in the way I am with her
> - I don't like her very much at all. And sadly she constantly says to me "Why do you hate me so much"?. I'm not in any way violent or do not show hate. But she says it comes out in everything I do and in all the interactions we have. And I think it is true.
> - Everything in our life is a memory for me of how much I had to do and the injustice of it all. From organising holidays, worrying about finances to fixing something in the house. Even our whole house purchase I had to manage.
> ...


I'm a lot more direct than I am "nice," and you may not like this answer, but it can provide you some of the help you say you want if you care to pay some attention to it.

Your post was full of information that is helpful to seeing your situation. You and your wife are in full blown power struggles that have invaded every aspect of your lives together. 

Early on, you had a balance of power in a weird way. You were the provider, and she maintained her own sense of power by being helpless. It worked. 

As time has passed, the type of power you each have shifted here and there and this proved to be a source of power struggles. As power struggles go unsolved, they have a way of becoming more frequent and intense as both people struggle to regain the sense of power each of them want, and avoid surrendering power to the other person. 

Now, you find yourself resenting her and letting all these things accumulate - to such a degree that as she starts doing the things you've wanted, you're staying angry and resentful. 

To get back to good, I think three things need to happen: 

*1. You need to evaluate your values.*
You said how great things were in the beginning and how you couldn't stand to be apart. What did you get from the relationship then? I assume she was forgetful, late, and not driving then, too, but it wasn't a problem for you. Now it is. 

Your post seems to focus a great deal on financial things. Why she's not keeping track of things YOUR way. You'll have to decide what's more important, the loss of money or the loss of your relationship. Right now, you're saying the loss of money is what matters to you. I can understand how this might affect a girl from a privileged background who had a difficult childhood! 

What *does* matter to you most? 

*2. You need to figure out where you really need control, and where you're just wanting it.*

If she doesn't do things your way, ask yourself what is the worst that can happen and then figure out just how important that is. I often use a scale of 1-10 to help get perspective. Compare that to how important your relationship and peace of mind are. Is it important enough to fight about? Then look at the flip side: how important is it to NOT do things her way? What's the worst that would happen if you accommodated what she wants? 

There are some things we should insist on having control of in our lives. Our values, our priorities, and our beliefs, for instance. However, we have a responsibility to not step on others' values, priorities, and obligations, too. When power struggles are taking place, it's often because both people are insisting on having control over their own AND the other's priorities, values, and beliefs. If you can find ways to address problems in ways that honors the other's values/beliefs/priorities, it'll go a long way to solving the power struggles. 

*3. You need to examine what these past events mean to you.*

Right now, your thoughts are something like "She's been unfair to me." "I've been used." "I give more than I get." 

How would you feel differently if your thoughts were: 

"It took a long time, but she's been stepping up to the plate lately." "It's unfortunate she didn't know how to be a full partner before, but it's great that she's trying to be now." "She helped me develop the skills that have made my business successful, because I'm better at time management and budgeting than I would have been otherwise."

For the record, I don't see Borderline Personality Disorder as even a remote possibility here. (Sorry, Uptown, but I think your own experience is coloring your judgment on this one.) 

As far as the vaginismus and children, I'm guessing that there is a sexual abuse history present. Has your wife seen an individual counselor to address the aftereffects of her childhood?


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

Hi Everyone

Thank you so much for your inputs. Reading the comments and advice has been very helpful to me. Thank you. 

Uptown - thank you for the links to the articles. When I read them, I can see some characteristics that my wife may have BUT interestingly, when I read it for guys, I felt that I displayed some of the characteristics too. So we may both be displaying some - but I'm not sure if the BPD line of thinking is explaining things?

Hopefull 363 - she started to get more independent about 8 months or so ago. Perhaps I could do to acknowledge it, but sadly I just feel so angry and it's so late in the day - this is what I needed many years ago. But writing this, I can see that from my wife's position - what exactly does she have to gain from all the work she is putting in? What is TAM?

Accept - I agree - the main issue is Anger and not liking her. But she is a good person. That's the issue. I wish I could take a tablet that enabled me to be in the moment, to be with her, and not feel the level and depth of emotion that I feel. Is there any suggestions?

3Blessings - She loves children and the fact that we do not have any is making her more upset. This is a good point!

River 1977 - Thank you for the time taken to respond. Your point about the phantom future is very interesting. It would make sense, I'm judging based on a phantom figure - not the woman I married. Forgiving wife based on not being who I wanted her to be. This really makes sense. 

On your question on the subject of children, we could not bring ourselves to even try (or even be intimate) for the last several years until we are able to like or even love each there again. 

KathyBatesel - Thank you for your directness. Your point about values is spot on. I suspect we have very different values. A lot of our childhood issues brought us closer together. We felt the same things and were almost to lost souls that found each other. The things is, we approached our issues very differently. I worked harder, tried to understand what they did to me. I became organised. And NOT lazy. I'm the kind of person that wakes up with purpose, get dressed and gets started. My wife is very different. It really agitates me when I see her still in her pyjamas and gown, during the day. It really agitates me that she puts things off. That if I come home unexpectedly she is bustling around trying to make beds, put things away, tidy up. I'm just using these things as examples as they rattle me and then I withdraw. I then wonder whether we actually do share values and question if I can cope with this. I worry that I would like to have confident kids, that are not exposed to 'laziness'. That anything is possible. That you have to participate. etc. Am I crazy? Maybe we really can't find a common ground?

On your point 2. This makes sense in theory but we've tried to have these types of conversations in the past. My wife would say she has done all the changing. And I would agree, but the issue is it's only around me. When I'm not there, I can't trust her. Is she awake, if she is working from home? Is she dressed? Has she done the things she promised she would rather than rushing around just before I get home? I know this may seem crazy - but it's not the things themselves, it's just what they represent about her and the things I don't like. I'd be interested in how we could talk to each other and I could explain that my low levels of trust are from the past and that when she does things the way she does, they make me sad and anxious and remember how much I don't trust. 

On your point 3. No sexual abuse. But parents fought a lot, and continue to do so and this has made my wife a very sensitive and anxious person I think. I agree about BPD - I'm not sure if this is it. In fact, it seems like I have some traits of it too! I like your thoughts on reframing. 

Thank you everyone. I'm still lost. Has the additional information I have provided above been useful? 

Any other suggestions or comments?

Key for me: 
How to not feel the way I do when I see or interact with my wife?
How to stop being angry?
Do we have really opposing values that we can't reconcile?


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

Thanks have responded below.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Worried, thanks for taking the time to write a considerate and measured response to each of us who offered suggestions. I am pleased that you feel you likely can rule out strong BPD traits. It is a painful condition I would not wish on my worst enemy.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Hmm, I would have been divorced 3 months after marriage without sex. You stayed for 3.5 years? I assume you have some asexual tendencies then. In any case, your relationship is lacking "glue". Personally the situation you describe would be a nightmare for me and I'd walk. But if for some weird reason you want to keep at it, I'd get into counseling asap. And make sure she does too.


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

Does anyone else have anything to add?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

Today we spent the day together. It was very hard and very awkward. Conversation was at a minimum and the whole time I just didn't want to be there. Yet I was trying to take the advice on the forum. So on the positive side we didn't
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

Sorry. Accidentally submitted. So on the positive side we didn't fight. But all I wanted to do was be on my own. Still sad, angry and worried that I will never get over this. 

Can anyone else offer advice?

How can I spend time with my wife without feeling so anxious, nervous and sad of our sorry state? I just need to lose the feeling
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

TAM means Talk about Marriage. This website. You both need independent and marriage counseling. That's you're best bet.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Good luck with all you are going through. I feel sorry for both of you.


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## cjpa (Jul 17, 2012)

It sounds to me like you are bitter, and resent her--even though she has stepped up to the plate now, maybe in your mind/heart you are thinking "too little too late, woman." If that's the case, YOU need to make the move--decide if you can get over everything and really tryyyyy to make things work again...or if you need to move on and leave her. The ball is in your court, take some time to yourself and think about things for awhile and decide whether staying is worth the investment. Life is too short to be miserable, do whatever is best for YOU.


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

Thanks everybody for responses. 

It's the weekend again and have the dread feeling and feel very sad indeed. Wish there was a magic pill that you could take.

Just had a heated exchange because I found an invoice from the marriage councillor that she had been given to my wife. This is the second time this has happened where she has just put it on the side and forgotten about it. And I know it's not a big deal, but in our current state, things like this hurt more as I do not want to have to do these things anymore - especially as the invoice was given to her, not me. If it was to me - I would have sorted it.

I'm also really worried as we are going on holiday for a week in 10 days and wonder if this heavy, sad, sinking feeling will continue there as well. Holiday's aren't supposed to be like this are they? I know we are both feeling very low at the moment.

We've never been in this place before. 

Thanks everyone for your ongoing help and support. I'm trying some of the suggestions. Others are just too painful.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Can't someone refer Worried to that "love bank" program? I don't know enough about it, or the book to recommend, or sites to read... but it sounds as if they are both "overdrawn". I like the idea of the love bank, but I don't think I can explain it.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

SunnyT said:


> Can't someone refer Worried to that "love bank" program? I don't know enough about it, or the book to recommend, or sites to read... but it sounds as if they are both "overdrawn". I like the idea of the love bank, but I don't think I can explain it.


Don't know how interested the OP is at working at it, but here it is. 

"His Needs, Her Needs" by W. Harley

Amazon.com: His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage (9780800719388): Willard F. Jr. Harley: Books


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

Thanks Sunny and Anchorwatch. I looked at this and the principles Dr Harley takled about, yesterday. Very interesting indeed. My one question is to build an 'in love' situation you need to at least want to or have something to build on. We are not even at that stage yet. For example, carving out time together. This would be a real issue for us to get started with and 15 hours a week would be traumatic. We need to start with just working out what to say to each other when we do have a conversation! Any thoughts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## docj (Jun 18, 2009)

Worried 12345. Ehat works for me cause im.very disorganized n messy is FOCUS FACTOR. Natural herbs. It works but consult your doc first. But it works n is all ntural. Sounds like tour wife has ATTENTION.DEFICIT DISORDER. 
I suggest you both take a vacation separately. Even five days away. No calling and no texting. When you get back each of you should date the other. This week you plan a date next week she does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cjpa (Jul 17, 2012)

Worried, I am curious, what instilled your wife to change 8 months ago and start doing more? (If you mentioned that I apologize, I must have missed it.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

worried12345 said:


> Thanks Sunny and Anchorwatch. I looked at this and the principles Dr Harley takled about, yesterday. Very interesting indeed. My one question is to build an 'in love' situation you need to at least want to or have something to build on. We are not even at that stage yet. For example, carving out time together. This would be a real issue for us to get started with and 15 hours a week would be traumatic. We need to start with just working out what to say to each other when we do have a conversation! Any thoughts?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just read your entire thread. You surely have a lot of issues going on. I do think River's and Kathy's post can be of much help to you. By this point in the discussion you should have gained insight as to how wrong you both handled your problems and the resentment that ensued brought you to this point. For your marriage to have a chance you must break the pattern. You must put your anger and resentment aside and start anew, or your marriage will fail. Dr Harley addresses how to handle the anger and resentment issues in his book "Love Busters" and the associated work book, "Five Steps to Romantic Love". 

The 15 hours of UA time does seem hard in the beginning. Pick her up at work for a lunch date, once a week. Friday night wine, dinner, music and conversation at home, no TV. Saturday night outs for drinks and dinner. Just dinner each night in front of each other. Concerts, shows. Weekday evening walks around the park or neighborhood. Go shoping together, walk the mall. Any recreational activities you both enjoy, golf, tennis, exercise, ect. Does it sound like dating again? It is. You start building again and go from there. I know it sounds very simple. I doubted it would work. I'm here to tell you it does. I enacted this program on my own. The levels of stress lowered quickly between us. My wife noticed, followed and now we both reap the rewards. 

As for conversations, keep them positive. Speak of the good times you've both enjoyed. Give compliments. You know what she enjoys, what she does well, what makes her smile. Do not get disappointed and angry if she reacts negatively during the conversations. She may not understand why you want to be so nice, as she is only knows your negative interaction. Continue to be positive. Two steps forward, one step back but keep moving to renewing your relationship. If you chose to, you have a lot of work to turn things around, but it can be done.

I'd also look in to Dr David Schnarch's book a Passionate Marriage for the intimacy issues.

I do have a question. AADD runs in my family. I know it is not as common in women as in men, but your description about some of her behaviors are very familiar. Has she ever been evaluated for that?

Good luck to you both.


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

CJPA:

Think she said she was going to give it her all. That she wanted to prove to herself that she had tried everything. 

Thanks anchorwatch and everyone else: 

Which behaviours do you think could be symptomatic of AADD. can you tell me more about this and what impact it could be having?

All:

Wife worked from home today rather than go into work. I'm worried about her as when she is this low she literally shuts down. The issue is I'm down too so it's so hard to be a carer and part of the problem. We were pretty much arguing the whole day yesterday over our exchange about not paying the invoice. But literally every time we tried to close it off, it ended in another Time Out. I was so tired and frustrated at the end of the evening I just went to sleep. 

It's so strange being in this place at the moment. It almost feels like I'm looking into the world, groups, conversation but not part of them. It's filled with worries about our fate. I really feel we are at the very end. And it's hard to imagine a life without someone you have been with for more of your life than not! Every time I think of it I want to break down and cry - literally right away. There is no light in our world.

It's almost as if I think we are saying goodbye to each other in some ways and looking for reasons to suggest that this could be over via the sad, dully atmosphere in our life. I feel sick even typing about it. 

Somehow I never thought this could quite happen to us. Despite our problems. 

I'm not quite sure what to say.

I'm lucky to have you all out there. Thank you for being there for me and listening to me


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Do the words lazy, careless, forgetful, or procrastinator come to your mind. Well, she is not any of those things if she has AADD. Adult ADD its not someone's fault either. To forget things like the IC's invoice is common place. Do you think she enjoys your wrath, so she purposely did not attend to the invoice? Of course not! She couldn't help it...her brain does not deal with the mundane events of life, it moves to fast for that...off and on to the next...like a hunter chasing it's prey, running past everything only able to focus on the target...nothing else is of consequence, only the prey. She knows to go to the market, but when she get there her list is incomplete, if she brought it at all. If that's common then you both should think about finding an IC that deals with AADD. 

There are methods and meds to deal with and correct the behaviors. It is exasperating to live with someone who has ADD, if you don't know whats going on. Low self esteem is a by product also. The more they are berated for their behaviors, the more they give up trying. The more the hate and resentment, over that kind of treatment, splits the relationship. Many AADD afflicted marriages end in failure, due to ignorance of the reasons for the behaviors. You must, again, I say you must stop berating her for the forgetfulness and procrastination, it does no good at solving her problems. It will only make things worse for both of you. Those who live with it must learn the methods that work. 

There is nothing to be ashamed of either, it's commonly called "The Edison Gene" Those with it are considered hunters in a farmers world. Many prominent people have it. I'm not saying that is your problem. I only ask if either of you considered it as you do describe the same behaviors and reactions to an ADD partner. 

I'll leave you a link for your information on the subject. Check out Amazon too, they have many self help books you can use. Once you both understand it and deal with it, you may start to heal. I hope this helps.

Attention Deficit Disorder Association

Edit; I also agree with the other posters. What ever your problems are, you must stop the arguments. You must not fall into the trap if she argues with you either. You have to calm the situation, not elevate it.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

If you two have decided to make this marriage work (which it sounds like you have), then you have to do just one thing:

SOMETHING DIFFERENT!!

This comes from a book called "Divorce Busting". If she starts a fight, don't fight along with her. Stop raising your voice, stop any cursing, stop threatening divorce. The wind will come out of sails very quickly if you simply do not participate.

This is different then not communicating. Communication is critical but not the way you guys are doing it. Don't try to change her or explain how she is wrong. If you change your part in tghe marriage, then the marriage itself MUST change.

You've got many problems my man so attacking all of them at once isn't practical. Start with this weekend fighting problem by doing what I have suggested and then see how that affects the other problems and go from there.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Nobody can make you want something you don't want, Worried! 

There is no magic formula that will reawaken passion and compatibility. To reach that point, one of you will have to literally change your entire way of seeing the world, which is no small task. You can try it - let her values guide the way things work for the next thirty days, and when those annoyances arise, you can remind yourself that perhaps a learning opportunity is at hand. If you can force yourself to be receptive to it, you may discover that her "lazy" habits aren't as big a deal as you think. And SHE might discover that they're bigger than she thinks when you don't rescue her from not paying that bill. 

Otherwise, it is what it is.


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

anchorwatch said:


> Do the words lazy, careless, forgetful, or procrastinator come to your mind. Well, she is not any of those things if she has AADD. Adult ADD its not someone's fault either. To forget things like the IC's invoice is common place. Do you think she enjoys your wrath, so she purposely did not attend to the invoice? Of course not! She couldn't help it...her brain does not deal with the mundane events of life, it moves to fast for that...off and on to the next...like a hunter chasing it's prey, running past everything only able to focus on the target...nothing else is of consequence, only the prey. She knows to go to the market, but when she get there her list is incomplete, if she brought it at all. If that's common then you both should think about finding an IC that deals with AADD.
> 
> There are methods and meds to deal with and correct the behaviors. It is exasperating to live with someone who has ADD, if you don't know whats going on. Low self esteem is a by product also. The more they are berated for their behaviors, the more they give up trying. The more the hate and resentment, over that kind of treatment, splits the relationship. Many AADD afflicted marriages end in failure, due to ignorance of the reasons for the behaviors. You must, again, I say you must stop berating her for the forgetfulness and procrastination, it does no good at solving her problems. It will only make things worse for both of you. Those who live with it must learn the methods that work.
> 
> ...


Anchorwatch - this is really helpful. It makes sense and in a session we talked about something that could be related with the IC. We were talking about how when things need to get done me and her have different approaches. She almost stands still and I go buzzing around trying to do them. We talked about 
the past and how as a child she didn't get encouragement. The issue is even knowing this and even if she knew about possible AADD she probably would not do anything about it. Which is really sad. She would say she is trying to change but never do core things that would help solve the deeper issues e.g. Wake up on time, be disciplined about doing things, find a way to remember, get involved, be laser focused on achievement of goals, read a book, speak to someone, understand what the pressure is that it brings to our marriage...

I know I may seem harsh. I have depressive tendencies so the above also has a major impact on me and how I feel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

You do sound terribly negative. If I was your wife, I wouldn't try either because I'd know it wouldn't make a difference. Earlier in the thread you said that she has made 'all the changes' but followed up immediately with how it didn't matter because she only did them when you were coming home. 

You're quite hard on her. You don't want her. You don't accept her. You certainly don't appreciate that she has made changes for you, even if they haven't turned her into the perfect girl. 

Can you think of a single good reason she should feel hopeful?


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

worried, 

AADD can not be changed by you, her or anyone else. There are some who do grow out of the major effects during puberty and early adulthood, but grown adults that still carry the traits, will for life. It is like being born left handed. Many years ago educators forced children to write with their right hand, we all know how that went. You can not make it go away and she can't either.

Also, not once have you written about anything you love about her or she does well. Your negativity seems to be overwhelming your relationship. I fear whatever both your problems are, that negativity is or will stop you from recovering you marriage. 

I agree with Kathy's post. You would do well to read them again. 

Wish you both well.


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> You do sound terribly negative. If I was your wife, I wouldn't try either because I'd know it wouldn't make a difference. Earlier in the thread you said that she has made 'all the changes' but followed up immediately with how it didn't matter because she only did them when you were coming home.
> 
> You're quite hard on her. You don't want her. You don't accept her. You certainly don't appreciate that she has made changes for you, even if they haven't turned her into the perfect girl.
> 
> Can you think of a single good reason she should feel hopeful?


Hi KathyBatesel

What you say you've put really well. It makes sense. Maybe it's the "feeling" that these are all done in context in. Yes she has made changes for me but that's the point some were standard"live life things" - they weren't an option. But the post after yours really does make some sense as to why change isn't always there to stay.

Thank you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

worried12345 said:


> Thanks Sunny and Anchorwatch. I looked at this and the principles Dr Harley takled about, yesterday. Very interesting indeed. My one question is to build an 'in love' situation you need to at least want to or have something to build on. We are not even at that stage yet. For example, carving out time together. This would be a real issue for us to get started with and 15 hours a week would be traumatic. We need to start with just working out what to say to each other when we do have a conversation! Any thoughts?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just do it!

Follow Harleys guidelines, read the 5 love languages to make sure you are on the same page.

You need to see, that it is not all about what you need from her. Reading your posts, it seems to me that you want a completely different partner than the one you chose for your self.

You need to choose to love her, which it seems you don't. Ie. What would have happened if you had said to yourself: "I love her, so I'll handle that bill, it's no big deal to me, so I'll do it for her".

Would you have had a better or worse evening?

I also agree that you need to give some serious thoughts to whether there is something about her at all, that you do like.


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## Gobananas (Jul 25, 2012)

As it is said that something is there between you two that keep together, I fell that if you are trying to analyze the actual problem among you both, can find a solution. Can seek the help of any close common friends or relatives. If it is needed only need consultation.


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## xena74 (May 5, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> You do sound terribly negative. If I was your wife, I wouldn't try either because I'd know it wouldn't make a difference. Earlier in the thread you said that she has made 'all the changes' but followed up immediately with how it didn't matter because she only did them when you were coming home.
> 
> You're quite hard on her. You don't want her. You don't accept her. You certainly don't appreciate that she has made changes for you, even if they haven't turned her into the perfect girl.
> 
> Can you think of a single good reason she should feel hopeful?


:iagree:

When my husband and I were going through a rough patch we agreed to start doing things for and with each other. It was hard in the begining to know where to start. He would do little things like (start the coffee, pack my lunch, get our sons stuff for school) Yes, they were little things, but they meant the world to me. I in turn have done little things for him too. 

If he or I would never have never acknowledged each others efforts then it wouldn't have worked. But just a little thanks to your partner can make a world of differance when they are trying to change.

While reading your posts, you sound very resentfull. I know this feeling too. I resented my husbands drug abuse for many years. When he was clean and would try it was hard not to think he was doing things "because he had too". But you have to push past those feelings and just be?

Only you can make you happy. Sounds corny I know, but true. While on holiday wake up every morning and think about how great a day it is going to be. Stop starting fights with your wife over these little things. Put in as much effort or more than she is now doing, and compliment/thank her when she does something nice for you, even if it's just picking up your socks.

Good luck to you.


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

xena74 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> When my husband and I were going through a rough patch we agreed to start doing things for and with each other. It was hard in the begining to know where to start. He would do little things like (start the coffee, pack my lunch, get our sons stuff for school) Yes, they were little things, but they meant the world to me. I in turn have done little things for him too.
> 
> ...


Thanks everyone for recent posts. I'm going to write a more detailed response but especially thanks to xena74. Stories give me so much hope as I always think our problems outstrip those of others. They are more complicated, deeper, more traumatic. But maybe not. Xena74 - when you say you were going through a rough patch, how rough is rough? Do you have any other advice? How did you stop being angry about the drug use? Was either party "checked out" before change? 

I
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

anchorwatch said:


> Do the words lazy, careless, forgetful, or procrastinator come to your mind. Well, she is not any of those things if she has AADD. Adult ADD its not someone's fault either. To forget things like the IC's invoice is common place. Do you think she enjoys your wrath, so she purposely did not attend to the invoice? Of course not! She couldn't help it...her brain does not deal with the mundane events of life, it moves to fast for that...off and on to the next...like a hunter chasing it's prey, running past everything only able to focus on the target...nothing else is of consequence, only the prey. She knows to go to the market, but when she get there her list is incomplete, if she brought it at all. If that's common then you both should think about finding an IC that deals with AADD.
> 
> There are methods and meds to deal with and correct the behaviors. It is exasperating to live with someone who has ADD, if you don't know whats going on. Low self esteem is a by product also. The more they are berated for their behaviors, the more they give up trying. The more the hate and resentment, over that kind of treatment, splits the relationship. Many AADD afflicted marriages end in failure, due to ignorance of the reasons for the behaviors. You must, again, I say you must stop berating her for the forgetfulness and procrastination, it does no good at solving her problems. It will only make things worse for both of you. Those who live with it must learn the methods that work.
> 
> ...


Anchorwatch - I'm still thinking about this post. Do you think it's something I should bring up with her and maybe the MC? The reason is so much of our history is from the things AADD does - so there maybe solutions out there? I'm saying this purely from a practical point of view.. I want to try and find out more about AADD and impacts on marriage. 

Anyone have any stories? 

Thank you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

I still think you put too much emphasis on labelling her with whatever must be wrong with her.

This is who and how she is, at the moment at least.

This is a hypothesis, I have proved it to be true, you may test it as well if you like:

*"You can't change other people"...*

What you do have the power to do, is to change yourself. This will probably have some impact on your wife as well.

Do you think being angry is going to make her change? Anger is a self protection mechanism, use it when you are threatened on your life. Not paying a bill is hardly life-threatening.

I think you need to take a very thorough look at your self too, maybe you find something that need to change.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

worried12345 said:


> Anchorwatch - I'm still thinking about this post. Do you think it's something I should bring up with her and maybe the MC? The reason is so much of our history is from the things AADD does - so there maybe solutions out there? I'm saying this purely from a practical point of view.. I want to try and find out more about AADD and impacts on marriage.
> 
> Anyone have any stories?
> 
> ...


If you think it would help to investigate do so. You can go to the ADD Forums, there you can see how if affects couples and see what they deal with. 

But your are putting to much on what it could be wrong. It's like your looking for that eureka moment. What ever it may be, you should be trying to fill each others needs now. This will allow you both to work as a couple again and not adversaries. 

Your first focus should be on repairing the respect for each other and the love you once had. You have read Dr Harley's book..START THE PROGRAM TODAY...there you will find your eureka moment. like the advert says 'Just do it'.


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## xena74 (May 5, 2012)

I guess you could say I was "checked out" for a while. I was spending more time at work, not rushing home. I would go to my Besst friends house and spend my free time with her, even spend the night alot cuz I wasn't ready to go home and face it.

When I was home, we would not talk. We were not having sex. We were basically roomates. 

Not to sound to preachy, but when we started to go to church I found solace in God. I realized I took vows and made a prromise to DH and God that said, "good times and bad, sickness and health". These were def those times. 

Anything worth having is worth fighting for. And trust me, we both fought like heck to save this marriage. 

It's not easy, for me or him. We try everyday. Try to do something for each other. Even when were tired, something. It takes effort. If one of us slips and starts forgetting to make the effort, we call each other on it. Not a fight, DH recently said to me," your being alittle distant, you came home last night and didn't even kiss me?" That is a big thing for him, what he needs. I said last night when I got home, "you didn't make dinner? I just worked a 15 hour day and you a 7 hour and theres no dinner?" Thats what I need, if I put in twice as many hours at work than you, please at least get me a sandwich when I walk in the door.

When we were at our worst, he found this site. I was flirting online with a guy and Dh found out. NOTHING happened, just innocent flirting. (i know, no flirting should be called innocent) No one knew at that time I was seeing 2 differant doctors so I could get medication to kill myself. I had 180 pills so far stashed away and was in a deep depression. By flirting I had found a rush that i hadn't felt in a while because of the depression. I was on a stop smoking medication and after a few months kiling myself was all I thought about. All in the past now, I stpped this medication and have never had those thoughts again. 

He was very upset, rightfully so, and stumbled upon TAM. HE read BestBlus thread in the long term sucess section. He sent me the link, and we started to do some of the things he was doing with his wife. "dramatic again", BestBlues's thread saved my marriage I think. I would read it if I was you. It's long, and some people don't beleave these thing work or that you can overcome such hurtles, but you can if both people want to make a effort.


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

xena74 said:


> I guess you could say I was "checked out" for a while. I was spending more time at work, not rushing home. I would go to my Besst friends house and spend my free time with her, even spend the night alot cuz I wasn't ready to go home and face it.
> 
> When I was home, we would not talk. We were not having sex. We were basically roomates.
> 
> ...


Hi Xena

Thanks for your post and for sharing so much information. It definitely gives me hope. A lit of what you shared really resonates with me - especially the bit about depression. We are both very depressed and both on antidepressants. Time is definitely more enjoyable when we are apart. When we are together its very hard, awkward. Everything seems hard, conversation doesn't flow. I've got quite an associative mind which means there are memories in everything we do together and all the fights we have had about literally everything. I just wish I could lose the "feeling". I've taken inspiration from all the advice that has been shared and am going to try to put some into action. Today the MC suggested that I should take my wife's hand. I find it very hard to do this but there are things my wife has found hard and she has done them in recent months. The MC also suggested that we find three things to say to each other every evening that are encouraging so will try that too. 

I need to try and lose the anger and resentment I feel. I also have found comfort in work which means I work long days and a lot of the weekend so I need to try that too. 

I've had so many helpful posts and yours is a post that actually speaks from experience so thank you. I'll take a look at the post you suggested too. 

How long was it until you and your husband started to see results? Did you have 'practical living with each other' issues too - like I talked about in my first post?

Thank you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

anchorwatch said:


> If you think it would help to investigate do so. You can go to the ADD Forums, there you can see how if affects couples and see what they deal with.
> 
> But your are putting to much on what it could be wrong. It's like your looking for that eureka moment. What ever it may be, you should be trying to fill each others needs now. This will allow you both to work as a couple again and not adversaries.
> 
> Your first focus should be on repairing the respect for each other and the love you once had. You have read Dr Harley's book..START THE PROGRAM TODAY...there you will find your eureka moment. like the advert says 'Just do it'.


Thanks Anchorwatch. I think you've summed it up. I've been looking for that Eureka Moment from the very early stages of our marriage. I've read more books on marriage than I care to think of. And maybe that's the problem. This forum is giving me the energy I need to just do it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Good for you. We all came here solve our marriages problems or make them better. Stay learn and share. I like your MC's instructions too. It is time to take her hand. 

ps; Cut back on your hours


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## xena74 (May 5, 2012)

I am glad me sharing helps. It's hard to talk about what I did wrong in my marriage, but I know other people are going through the same things and to know there is hope.

Every day living things, like bill paying, dishes, laundry....oh yeah we have those issues to. Used to be I did everything. Then I just stopped. Sick of him just taking the garbage out and he was done. 

When I got promoted at work 8 monthes ago, we had to re-evaluate our home load chores. Now, I do them on my days off and he does them on days I work. We do our own laundry though, and have taught our son to do his own now. Also hired a lawn guy.

I still do a lot of the deep cleaning that I would never expect him to do, but once in awhile he I will come home to a super clean house with flowers on the table for me. That will deff get him extra points with me!!!

I know you havn't brought up intamacy with your wife, but i'm gonna guess it's been awhile too. We had gone months. Now we talked it over and make it a point to have date night with no kid atleast once a week. It was akward and sometimes we would sit in silence or just talk about work, kid exct... But after a few weeks, it got better to.

Holding hands is a great start, humans need touch. Even this small gesture and mean the world to a person.

Good luck and keep us posted on how it's going!


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## still.trying (Jul 27, 2012)

Wow, that's lot information. I really think that you should do counsiling on your own, without her, to sort it all out. I'm not saying don't also go together, but going for yourself is the first step. The lack of sex can have a lot to do with it. I'd tackle that issue. Why are you both on anitdepresents? They can change your personality, do you really need them? Is it clinical or situational? Might want to rethink that. Please also read my post and offer advice.


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

Hi All

I just wanted to give everyone an update and also ask a question.

So we went on holiday or a week. It's actually the least stressed I've ever been before going away. We shared the responsibilities of the trip, and if anything, my wife probably did more. This was a first and deinately meant I was not overwhelmed and tired before getting on that plane which is the normal. 

On holiday, unfortunately something urgent came in before we left which meant that I was having to do some hours of work everyday on holiday. My wife was good about this. We didn't have any arguments on the trip, but it was definitely a bit awkward. It's hard to talk when you don't know what your future is together. There was no physical intimacy. We went out or inner very night, then came back to the hotel, read a little then drifted into a sleep. 

I definitely came back thinking we might have a glimmer of a chance if we carried on, on the path we are on.

Yesterday I got thrown a little though. I had a work meeting which is in the same office my wife works. I was early and saw her heading out with a guy that works in a team near where she sits. I knew straight away that they were going out to have a smoke. For some reason this has really upset me. Even when they came back, she went and got some mints from reception and I saw her put one in his trouser pocket as they headed back up.

This whole thing has really upset me. Not least because I found out only recently that she smokes. She did when we were at college many years ago. We even fought when we moved into our new house about these mysterious butts appearing that I used to clean up. I guess why I'm upset is because she's smoking at work and keeping it secret, it's kicked off my trust receptors again - a major factor in our relationship. The dark side to her that I have to find out about every once in a while. Also didnt realise she had such a relationship with this guy. But don't think it's anything to worry about.

The good news is I didn't come back home and approach her bout it and fight. I've just sat with it and thought I woud write to you guys about it.

It's these kind of things that destroy me and make me Rory we don't have a future together as the trust issue is too much. 

Help, comments welcome.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

I'm sorry, you never mentioned there were trust issues with other men. What is the relationship with this man and why can't you ask her about it? 

Have you enacted Dr Harley's principles? Has she read HNHN yet?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

When you say she put a mint in his pocket - I gotta say - wow redflag there ! It's one thing for her to stand outside and smoke with him - it's another thing for their personal space boundaries to including putting stuff in each others pant pockets.

I can say honestly there isn't any time in the decades I've worked with others that I have ever gotten close enough to any co-worker where I would feel comfortable either putting things in their pant pockets or them putting them in mine.

Also, while she has been a long term smoker , you should realize that women often use smoking as a method to pursue men that also smoke, I gives them an excuse to go spend time with the man talk and sharing feelings and because smoking is a vice and looked down by so many people, it gives her a chance to show she accepts him as he is. In fact it's not unheard of for women who never smoked before to take it up if their affair partner smokes.


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## worried12345 (Jul 7, 2012)

Anchorwatch - good to hear from you. No haven't read the books yet as just thought I would spend some time not trying to find reasons, and just 'being' for a bit. So I just worked hard in our holiday on holding her hand and just not trying to get too deep. It was actually quite rewarding. I don't have trust issues when it comes to other men - I just don't know why I got so rattled about this. I spoke to her about it last night and she got very angry. She went to sleep and we haven't spoken the whole day today. Part of me now feels guilty for eevn bringing it up, but part of me thinks I should have. I had a right to ask. She said I made her feel cheep. I explained to her that I was so taken aback that I went and vomited. Was I wrong to ask? I tried my hardest to talk to her 24 hours later, to sit with the feeling, to explain to her how I felt (rather than blame).

The man in a coworker. 

The trust issue is a big one for us because of our history.

Shaggy - this is why I felt weird about it. I'm the same I would not go over that boundary. This is why I felt so weird about it.


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## capri7204 (Aug 16, 2012)

It seems to me your wife was too lazy. A marriage and everything that comes with is a partnership and you should not have been doing all the work.

It doesn't sound like a healthy marriage anymore. You said she has made a turnaround but you let this go on so long I am not sure you can ever let go of all that resentment. It does not sound like a healthy relationship for anyone.

If you haven't already done so try individual counseling as well. Cut down the hours if possible that is a killer on the nerves. I have been married for 12 years and am 41 years old. Everything we do, we do together. Best of luck!


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

worried12345 said:


> Anchorwatch - good to hear from you. No haven't read the books yet as just thought I would spend some time not trying to find reasons, and just 'being' for a bit. So I just worked hard in our holiday on holding her hand and just not trying to get too deep. It was actually quite rewarding. I don't have trust issues when it comes to other men - I just don't know why I got so rattled about this. I spoke to her about it last night and she got very angry. She went to sleep and we haven't spoken the whole day today. Part of me now feels guilty for eevn bringing it up, but part of me thinks I should have. I had a right to ask. She said I made her feel cheep. I explained to her that I was so taken aback that I went and vomited. Was I wrong to ask? I tried my hardest to talk to her 24 hours later, to sit with the feeling, to explain to her how I felt (rather than blame).
> 
> The man in a coworker.
> 
> ...


worried, I do think you have more than a right to ask her about any interaction with other males. I hope by today that conversation has been solved. How you asked or why she reacted to your question like that, I wasn't there, so I can't say. You had a terrible reaction to what you saw and she did seem to be defensive. Both reactions are indications that things between you both are not good. This is not new news. 

What makes me uneasy about this incident is that you marriage is on shaky ground. Both of you are not fulfilling each other's emotional needs and that makes you vulnerable to having others fill them for you. Not to say this may have happened, but if you don't start filling her needs, what is to stop her accepting them from someone else? If this happens she will not accept them from you, and that includes sexual fulfillment. How does she feel about missing intimacy? Does she voice commitment to recover the marriage? Have you been able to spend the 15 hours a week together?

I know I'm harping but as I and other posters said, you really need to read "HNHN', to understand what emotional needs are and how they play out in relationships. It's been almost a month since we recommended you read and enact the methods. If you had started by now, you would know if she could accept them from you and if she would join you on the path to recovering this marriage. It can be that simple. Read it, have her read, start today. Hope you continuing with MC also.


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