# Changing a recurring dynamic



## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

The longer that my H and I are married, the more I become aware of patterns in our behavior that play out over and over again. There is one in particular that I tend to get very resentful over, and I'd like some feedback on how to guide us onto a different path - whether that be resetting my own expectations or changing our actions to upset the pattern. 

We went to dinner with friends last night (a double date, sans kids). I very much like having time with our friends like this where we get to chat and catch up without kids drawing our attention elsewhere. During the dinner I did 99.9% of the conversing with our friends while my H sat there quietly. When our friends ask him a direct question to try to pull him into the conversation, he answers with one or two word answers which usually cut the conversation short. The result is that it appears to me and to others at the table that he is unhappy and does not wish to be there. 

Being quiet and withdrawn during dinner is enough to make me slightly annoyed. We all try to include him in conversation and ask him for input on things, so I feel he is being impolite by shutting that down. 

What causes me the most resentment is what happens after dinner. As soon as we get into the car to go home, there is uncomfortable silence from H. I am happy, upbeat and energized from having had time with our friends and he is withdrawn and sullen. If I ask him any questions or try to start any conversation with him, it goes badly. Any frivolous attempts to start conversation - "How was your food?" Are met with one word answers - "good." Any prying questions I ask "Is everything ok? You were very quiet during dinner.." are met with anger from him - "I'm FINE. Let's just get the kids." I will stop talking to him at that point and we will go the rest of the night in silence. I will usually just try to go to bed quickly after we get home. When we wake up the next morning, he is completely normal like nothing happened. It unfortunately takes me a little longer to cool off than that. 

This usually results in me feeling a great deal of resentment for having a wonderful night ruined by his attitude. Last night I was thinking to myself how nice it would have been to keep the fun energy going from dinner as we got home and maybe enjoy a nice time in bed together. But those thoughts shut down very abruptly when he behaves this way. I am the more LD spouse, so when I have a genuine desire I will always go to him. But my desire is affected by the atmosphere of our relationship. When something like this happens, I find it complete extinguishes any desire I had for several days following the event. 

He's actually more of an extrovert than me, and when we are out in a crowd of people he's more at ease talking to others than I am. It seems like if I made the plans or it was my idea to see people though, that he shuts down and behaves this way. I don't understand it. 

I'm not mad at him this morning, or really any other morning after this happens. I just wish for change. This exact scenario happens a lot, and I would very much like to figure out how to break the pattern. I think disappointed is a better word for it. 

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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Can you think of any reasons why he acts this way?

Is it only with one set of friends, or is it with anyone you go out with?

If it is only these friends, why doesn't he like them, or enjoy their company?

If he dislikes going so much that he acts like this, why bother bringing him? He sounds like a real dud and Debbie Downer. I'd leave him at home with the kids, and go have a nice time with your friends.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Spicy said:


> Can you think of any reasons why he acts this way?
> 
> Is it only with one set of friends, or is it with anyone you go out with?
> 
> ...


It is not specific to any set of people. He does this with everyone equally, but not 100% of the time. There are times when we go out and he's normal and cheerful. It seems to happen more in smaller crowds, like double dates or when we go to see my family alone. When we are at big parties he does not act this way. He happily socializes there. 

I tend to see it as more of a problem between he and I, than a problem with H and the other people we are with. It seems to happen most frequently when he and I are staying together at an outing (a dinner date where we sit together the whole time). At social functions where you are up and moving around a crowd, we tend to split up for some of the time and he happily socializes when he is away from me. 

I have made the offer to him before that he could stay home and I would go alone. He is very offended by that and insists he wants to go. 

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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

kag123 said:


> It is not specific to any set of people. He does this with everyone equally, but not 100% of the time. There are times when we go out and he's normal and cheerful. It seems to happen more in smaller crowds, like double dates or when we go to see my family alone. When we are at big parties he does not act this way. He happily socializes there.
> 
> I tend to see it as more of a problem between he and I, than a problem with H and the other people we are with. It seems to happen most frequently when he and I are staying together at an outing (a dinner date where we sit together the whole time). At social functions where you are up and moving around a crowd, we tend to split up for some of the time and he happily socializes when he is away from me.
> 
> ...


So when you ask him why he acts like this sometimes, what does he say?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Spicy said:


> So when you ask him why he acts like this sometimes, what does he say?


"Nothing's wrong"

"I don't know what you are talking about"

"I don't act that way"

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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

...


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Tell him BEFORE you go out if he starts with the sullenness and one word replies, you will apologize to your friends, tell them it's not good timing, and then leave the restaurant, with or without him. And then LEAVE. Yes, he'll be mortified, the friends night will be ruined (but sounds like it pretty much already is anyway with his current behavior) but the only way to change behavior is through boundaries and consequences. 

Maybe give the wife of the couple a heads up ahead of time if you're close enough to share what is going on.

Don't fight about it when you get home. Tell him, "I told you I wasn't going to coddle you and try to bring you into the conversation, you were making our friends very uncomfortable, that's the end of it. We'll try again another time."

His behavior is childish and VERY passive aggressive, and yes this IS a power struggle. Passive aggressive people are emotional vampires and are incredibly draining to be around. Honestly, they are a real killjoy.

What other ways is he passive aggressive towards you?


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

happy as a clam said:


> Tell him BEFORE you go out if he starts with the sullenness and one word replies, you will apologize to your friends, tell them it's not good timing, and then leave the restaurant, with or without him. And then LEAVE. Yes, he'll be mortified, the friends night will be ruined (but sounds like it pretty much already is anyway with his current behavior) but the only way to change behavior is through boundaries and consequences.
> 
> Maybe give the wife of the couple a heads up ahead of time if you're close enough to share what is going on.
> 
> ...


THIS^^^^. Very, very passive aggressive. Been there, done that, never, ever want to do it again. Set that boundary but be prepared for the passive aggressive consequences but don't back down. You move that line, you will never get it back & it will get worse. When I asked my STBXH something, I would have to start it with "I'm not trying to tell you what to do". I'm with @happy as a clam, this can't be his only passive aggressive behavior.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Do you ever call him out about stuff in front of the friends? Disrespect him? I have seen wives do that to their husbands and not even know it. That would be enough to put me off talking. I would call my wife out over it afterwords if she did it though. Believe me she would know.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

happy as a clam said:


> Tell him BEFORE you go out if he starts with the sullenness and one word replies, you will apologize to your friends, tell them it's not good timing, and then leave the restaurant, with or without him. And then LEAVE. Yes, he'll be mortified, the friends night will be ruined (but sounds like it pretty much already is anyway with his current behavior) but the only way to change behavior is through boundaries and consequences.
> 
> Maybe give the wife of the couple a heads up ahead of time if you're close enough to share what is going on.
> 
> ...


Yeah I doubt this will go over well. It may end the relationship all together, embarrassment and shaming is never a good tactic in my book, not with an adult.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

My wife and are both spar for who is going to talk the most.  The only thing I can think of is maybe he does not want to be with the people you do want to be with. A lot of spouses go along with their spouse's plans when they really do not want to because they view themselves not as individuals but as half of a couple. They do things because they feel that as half of a couple, they should. My wife and I have nothing in common other than our brand of morality and undying love. I am the product of private schools for gifted children and she comes from the public school system where she got a technical high school diploma in secretarial skills. I enjoy discussing weighty and technical issues while she enjoys talking about the grandchildren of her friends and what they are up to now. We have a few friends in common but they tend to be like us. Normal wives with husbands with their heads in the clouds saying things they are not interested in nor understand.

Over the course of our 44 years of marriage we have learned to ask each other before we commit to doing things with others. We also view ourselves as individuals and not half of a couple who must do thing together. My wife goes out three nights a week with her girlfriends and sometimes a few of their husbands join in. I seldom do but when I do, they are very glad to see me because they know I am there because I want to be not because my wife dragged me there or I felt an obligation or guilt. I am like the very critical judge who everyone wants approval from. 

The key question for you is do you ask your husband before you make plans? If not, you are the problem, not him. You are committing him to do things without him having a say. You do not need a degree in Psychology to understand your husband's Passive-aggressive behavior. It is text book stuff. It is how a lot of people act when they are doing things that they do not want to do. My wife never commits me to anything. She always asks first and I do the same. I know that my wife only enjoys the social batter of exchanging information about the minutia of each other's lives and is uncomfortable with the level of friends I enjoy who talk about things that my wife does not understand or is just simply not interested in. We sometimes will accompany each other just to be social but not often. However, even then it is done because we asked each other first and not because it was presented as a fait accompli.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Do you ever call him out about stuff in front of the friends? Disrespect him? I have seen wives do that to their husbands.


No, never. Any conversation we have about it happens in private after the event is over and we are alone. Even then I don't "shame". I just ask him hey - everything alright? I've learned to not even broach the subject though when he's in one of these "moods". Any attempt to communicate is met with anger. So I just keep quiet and plan to spend the rest of the evening doing my own thing. Such a shame after having a good time with friends to end the evening that way, though!

Yesterday evening I felt like hitting him over the head with a frying pan and telling him - I wanted to have sex with you tonight, you doofus, but now you've ruined the mood. (I did not say that to him FTR.) I don't want to weaponize sex, but that is how I really feel. There are plenty of times when I think how nice it would be to get with him but then his attitude is an instant turn off. 

I appreciate the boundaries that are being suggested, too, but I couldn't imagine implementing them in real life. First - leaving a restaurant abruptly and either not paying for our meal or making a big scene to flag down the waiter and pay our check before our food arrives would embarass the heck out of ME. And I'd be angry that I didn't get to eat the food I ordered! I also try to keep any marital problems to myself, and would not feel comfortable involving friends in our drama. Plus, we all have to basically move mountains to find babysitters for our kids that all coincide on the same evening to make dinners like this happen. So I'd be ruining my friends evening who went out of their way to get a sitter for a night out. :/

What I have tried to do in the past is calmly ask him to stay home "because he doesn't seem to enjoy it" and he gets so offended at the very thought of me leaving him home. It would be different I think if it were a girls night, but when everyone is showing up as a couple and then one person's spouse is the only one missing, it can be awkward. I couldn't think of a legitimate excuse as to why he was home either. "He's sick" = I would normally be home taking care of him. "He's at work" = I would normally tell friends up front and we would postpone the dinner if anyone's spouse had to unexpectedly work. I'd feel more comfortable telling the truth that he just doesn't want to be there, but I have not found a way to get him to agree that he truly doesn't want to go - he says he does. So if I forced him to stay home that elevates the issue into WW3.

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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

kag123 said:


> "Nothing's wrong"
> 
> "I don't know what you are talking about"
> 
> "I don't act that way"


You can't change the dynamic if he denies it's even happening. I think the only way to deal with it is to go with him to large social gatherings and forget date nights. If you want a nice evening out, perhaps asking one of your gf's to go along would be better. You can catch up with a friend and won't have to worry about hubs pulling his bad-attitude act. I realize that is not a particularly good solution, but you can't make him change if he doesn't even admit he has a problem.

You mentioned he also behaves this way when you visit your family. So he insists on accompanying you then clams up, right? Ugh. Sounds like he doesn't care for date nights or your family. I could be wrong, but that's what I'm getting from your post. To behave this way and deny it is over-the-top passive-aggressive, not to mention childish. 

I wish I had better advice to give you. My late husband pulled this stunt several times. I ignored him and enjoyed myself anyway. Didn't improve his attitude, but I got to the point that I simplly detached from his behavior.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

This describes perfectly the husband of a friend of mine.In a group of people he is great fun,cracking jokes making everyone laugh but he can't "do" small talk.If I meet him one on one he is ok but it took a while to bring him out of his shell,usually it's like pulling teeth to get him to talk.
Another thing I noticed is he drinks more when in a larger group because if it is only two couples it is obvious if he orders more drinks than anyone else.The drinks help him relax.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

kag123 said:


> No, never. Any conversation we have about it happens in private after the event is over and we are alone. Even then I don't "shame". I just ask him hey - everything alright? I've learned to not even broach the subject though when he's in one of these "moods". Any attempt to communicate is met with anger. So I just keep quiet and plan to spend the rest of the evening doing my own thing. Such a shame after having a good time with friends to end the evening that way, though!
> 
> Yesterday evening I felt like hitting him over the head with a frying pan and telling him - I wanted to have sex with you tonight, you doofus, but now you've ruined the mood. (I did not say that to him FTR.) I don't want to weaponize sex, but that is how I really feel. There are plenty of times when I think how nice it would be to get with him but then his attitude is an instant turn off.
> 
> ...


I want to suggest that this might have nothing to do with you or the friends and is probably some internal issue with him. That being said unless he tells you this it's going to be a problem.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I want to suggest that this might have nothing to do with you or the friends and is probably some internal issue with him. That being said unless he tells you this it's going to be a problem.


Perhaps. As I said in a earlier post- this attitude of his never lasts beyond a single evening. He woke up this morning in a fine mood and has been smiling and joking with me ever since. The problem that I have is that I don't get over it as quickly as he does. I am not being mean to him or angry with him at all today, it's just stewing in the back of my mind that he acted like a turd all of last night.

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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

kag123 said:


> Perhaps. As I said in a earlier post- this attitude of his never lasts beyond a single evening. He woke up this morning in a fine mood and has been smiling and joking with me ever since. The problem that I have is that I don't get over it as quickly as he does. I am not being mean to him or angry with him at all today, it's just stewing in the back of my mind that he acted like a turd all of last night.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


How about addressing it when you are not angry. It's hard to communicate effectively when you are angry. He is also still in the throws of whatever demons he is fighting.

Like this. "Husband, please tell me what is going on with you when this happens? I am worried and I want to try to help you because I makes me sad to see you suffer. Please talk to me your wife." Not, "What the hell men you spoiled my night!"

Give that a try.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is why we (M2 and I) don't often socialize. 

She is literally the perfect dessert companion. But throw other folks into the mix - and you get highly unpredictable behavior. 

Not loud. Not crude. Just - sometimes - and unpredictability - calmly and politely destructive behavior. 

If and only if I calmly and casually highlight that - she will acknowledge it. If I seem even a little annoyed - she pretends she has no clue at all what I am referring to. 





kag123 said:


> Perhaps. As I said in a earlier post- this attitude of his never lasts beyond a single evening. He woke up this morning in a fine mood and has been smiling and joking with me ever since. The problem that I have is that I don't get over it as quickly as he does. I am not being mean to him or angry with him at all today, it's just stewing in the back of my mind that he acted like a turd all of last night.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> This is why we (M2 and I) don't often socialize.
> 
> She is literally the perfect dessert companion. But throw other folks into the mix - and you get highly unpredictable behavior.
> 
> ...


Yep. Nailed it. 

So how do you deal with it? We have friends that I'd like to continue relationships with...

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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

Are the plans last minute get togethers? Do you plan things without asking if he's interested? He sounds resentful to me. But why?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

1. I don't surprise her last minute
2. I give her some element of control over the event - timing - location - 
3. I say 'thank you for doing this' - which is a dual message: real gratitude and contains a subtext of: I sort of get this isn't something you want to do
4. I make sure she feels included in the conversation - doesn't feel left out

Thing is - M2 is socially VERY adept - perceptive - great sense of humor - etc... As to why she feels anxious and gets destructive - she really isn't all that fond of seeing me very happily interact with others. Jealousy? Not sexual jealousy. If I had to guess it impacts her sense of control. 

Last but not least - I don't push it if she clearly seems opposed. 

This is M2's biggest single limitation as a life partner. 





kag123 said:


> Yep. Nailed it.
> 
> So how do you deal with it? We have friends that I'd like to continue relationships with...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> 1. I don't surprise her last minute
> 2. I give her some element of control over the event - timing - location -
> 3. I say 'thank you for doing this' - which is a dual message: real gratitude and contains a subtext of: I sort of get this isn't something you want to do
> 4. I make sure she feels included in the conversation - doesn't feel left out
> ...


I tend to make plans a few days in advance. I don't consider that last minute - but maybe he does? For this particular outing, we had a hard time coming up with a restaurant everyone could agree on. I punted it to him and asked him for input, he gave a list of places he would be happy with, and we ended up picking one of them. So he did have input about where we went. 

So same as your wife - my H is actually better at socializing than I am. I consider myself to be a huge introvert and have a hard time being friendly. Really. I do best with close friends in small groups but at parties and large gatherings I am usually very uncomfortable. Whereas he seems more in his element there. I guess that is why I find this so frustrating. I want to be able to have intimate conversation with my friends AND my H. 

I can agree with you that it does seem like my H does not like to see me happily interacting with others. But why?! I cannot wrap my head around it. 


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,
Today a work friend of M2's came over. This woman does a lot of clever stuff with wood and we had just replaced our wooden fence. So she and her live in partner came to collect the 'old' fence. This was all planned out and I helped them load their truck. 

I really liked the live in partner - smart - interesting fellow. I suggested having them over sometime. M2 said: I don't like having just two people over. How about later this year I invite everyone from work? I said sure and that was that. 

8-10 coworkers with their partners is acceptable to her - but a single couple - not so much. 





kag123 said:


> I tend to make plans a few days in advance. I don't consider that last minute - but maybe he does? For this particular outing, we had a hard time coming up with a restaurant everyone could agree on. I punted it to him and asked him for input, he gave a list of places he would be happy with, and we ended up picking one of them. So he did have input about where we went.
> 
> So same as your wife - my H is actually better at socializing than I am. I consider myself to be a huge introvert and have a hard time being friendly. Really. I do best with close friends in small groups but at parties and large gatherings I am usually very uncomfortable. Whereas he seems more in his element there. I guess that is why I find this so frustrating. I want to be able to have intimate conversation with my friends AND my H.
> 
> ...


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Maybe he was looking forward to a night with just you, and without others.

If he's as social as you say then he might have desired something more quiet and intimate to balance things out. He's just poor at expressing it. 

Just a thought.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Kag,
> Today a work friend of M2's came over. This woman does a lot of clever stuff with wood and we had just replaced our wooden fence. So she and her live in partner came to collect the 'old' fence. This was all planned out and I helped them load their truck.
> 
> I really liked the live in partner - smart - interesting fellow. I suggested having them over sometime. M2 said: I don't like having just two people over. How about later this year I invite everyone from work? I said sure and that was that.
> ...


What is it about a small group that makes her so uncomfortable?

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I've had some more time to think about this. Things have been good between us from the morning after the event on, and we had an enjoyable day yesterday together. Even though we were both in good spirits all day, I still find myself carrying this low level anger around with me about it for a few days afterwards. I think that might be the real problem that I need help with. I cannot seem to let things go in a reasonable time frame. I don't get over bad behavior quickly. 

We had sex last night, and for me it was just meh. I think he enjoyed it. I will admit that I had thought about saying no last night because I was still harboring resentment and just wasn't feeling the intimacy with him. I didn't do that. The result was that I was very detached and didn't really enjoy it like I otherwise would have, and when that happens I feel very mentally yuck after the event. I think it is from the disconnect of giving my body to someone that I am angry with. It feels dishonest. 

I'd like to be able to just get over these humps more quickly and let them go. I've always struggled with "holding a grudge".

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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I've had some more time to think about this. Things have been good between us from the morning after the event on, and we had an enjoyable day yesterday together. Even though we were both in good spirits all day, I still find myself carrying this low level anger around with me about it for a few days afterwards. I think that might be the real problem that I need help with. I cannot seem to let things go in a reasonable time frame. I don't get over bad behavior quickly.
> 
> We had sex last night, and for me it was just meh. I think he enjoyed it. I will admit that I had thought about saying no last night because I was still harboring resentment and just wasn't feeling the intimacy with him. I didn't do that. The result was that I was very detached and didn't really enjoy it like I otherwise would have, and when that happens I feel very mentally yuck after the event. I think it is from the disconnect of giving my body to someone that I am angry with. It feels dishonest.
> 
> ...


Perhaps you are having difficulty letting it go *because* he won't have an honest or realistic discussion about this with you.


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## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

I don't enjoy doing dinner with people as much as I do going to parties. When conversation gets boring or offensive, you can walk away at the party but at dinner, you're stuck. Perhaps he's stewing over something that's been said or just bored? Maybe he thinks you talk too much? Maybe he's lost in his thoughts and truly doesn't realize he's not being good compay? (seems unlikely)

It does seem to be between you two since it doesn't change once you're alone. Maybe he doesn't want to share his time away from the kids with other people, yet he knows you want to so he tries. But he just can't ever get into it. Maybe you seem more interested in others than him (in his mind.)


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

He could totally think I talk too much. He has always been a man of few words, and we don't talk much as a result to each other. I know that sounds wierd. We just don't have those long winding conversations at all because he doesn't want to. So when I'm with friends I tend to let that side of me out, maybe he finds me annoying. It's hard because I feel a deficit of that type of interaction in my life since he doesn't talk much, so when I do get a taste of it by going out with friends I feel energized and happy. And he seems to glean the exact opposite from being out with friends in those scenarios (or maybe just me lol). 

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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Sometimes we simply have an "alignment" problem where all the gears may place but simply do not fall into the mesh well... in things familiar this doesn't cause too much grief as we have the experience that things are happening just as we expect them to or if they are not moving well with a different noise we know how to safely compensate.

Then there are those times when the misalignment come, we don't really know why, and our reaction is much different because of that difference alone... understanding is not clear and we become frustrated, then add more and more, or poor feelings, until it becomes something more than the minor and temporary thing it was.

Thing is, it may not fit him alone really... in many ways it fits you both although you carry the misalignment differently. The noise in the mechanism is something to quietly sit back and keep listening to more, and then not worry about it as it got you to your destination "safe enough" and accept something wasn't right but it is now fine, or you can place more stress on the situation by playing the "do you think" route trying to pick apart the "you don't know what you don't know" and winding up emotions to the point of disturbing more around you than the initial problem.

You want to know "why" this happens and it chisels away your peace... you ended your opening post stating you were not mad, but you must have been because it went to "stewing" to finally stating you feel a "low-level anger" you carry around with you for a few days.

I would agree with you that this resentment container is something you may want to throw away sooner, how can you change that resentment into an acceptance that sometimes, misalignment "happens" and at the end of the day, resentment doesn't need to?

If anything, reacting negatively to something EB2 likes or doesn't like in a social setting is going to cause us discomfort... it's not mine to own or fix if she needs that place to be quiet and not engage, I have learned a long time ago to free her of any "you made me/you made this" scenario in our outings.

If she is engaged, that's fine... if she isn't, that fine too but if I want to lose my peace and enjoyment, I'll become an inquisitor because then I am making it my problem when it really wouldn't be a problem at all when all is said and done.

And that is my failing to communicate kindly...


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## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

kag123 said:


> It's hard because I feel a deficit of that type of interaction in my life since he doesn't talk much, so when I do get a taste of it by going out with friends I feel energized and happy.
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


I'm reading His Needs, Her Needs and it says women need Conversation from the man. Supposedly you shouldn't get it from others, you need it from him. That's interesting that you feel LD but *aroused* after such an outing. Perhaps if DH knew there was a link, he'd be more into this kind of thing?

I'd experiment. Double date again. Overlook his quiet behavior, which sounds normal for him anyway. Include him but don't berate him for not talking. Maybe even praise him for letting you do all the talking? Enjoy yourself. When you get in the car, turn all your positive attention on him and take him all the way home. (See what I did there?)

I have quiet kids. I don't think they like when a group turns to them and talks about how they don't talk. Even sometimes when someone's trying to be nice, it feels patronizing. Alot of what they're doing is taking it all in. It's the people trying to make them talk who are uncomfortable.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Combine his need to ensure normal social optics - by attending - with his lack of fondness for this type interaction and BOOM.

Nitro plus glycerine....






kag123 said:


> He could totally think I talk too much. He has always been a man of few words, and we don't talk much as a result to each other. I know that sounds wierd. We just don't have those long winding conversations at all because he doesn't want to. So when I'm with friends I tend to let that side of me out, maybe he finds me annoying. It's hard because I feel a deficit of that type of interaction in my life since he doesn't talk much, so when I do get a taste of it by going out with friends I feel energized and happy. And he seems to glean the exact opposite from being out with friends in those scenarios (or maybe just me lol).
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Combine his need to ensure normal social optics - by attending - with his lack of fondness for this type interaction and BOOM.
> 
> Nitro plus glycerine....


So what is the solution for this? Avoiding seeing friends isn't something I'm willing to do, and he isn't willing to peacefully stay home. 

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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

kag123 said:


> It is not specific to any set of people. He does this with everyone equally, but not 100% of the time. There are times when we go out and he's normal and cheerful. It seems to happen more in smaller crowds, like double dates or when we go to see my family alone. When we are at big parties he does not act this way. He happily socializes there.
> 
> I tend to see it as more of a problem between he and I, than a problem with H and the other people we are with. It seems to happen most frequently when he and I are staying together at an outing (a dinner date where we sit together the whole time). At social functions where you are up and moving around a crowd, we tend to split up for some of the time and he happily socializes when he is away from me.
> 
> ...


Is he a snob, especially an intellectual one?

Where he does not share his feelings and thoughts with people "beneath" him.

He likely has eclectic thoughts, thoughts totally unrelated to his immediate environment. He lives in his own world.

He seems bored with the common man, common and popular pastimes and thoughts. He does not get involved with the conversation because he is bored silly.

You two are not compatible. Especially him. He is not polite enough to pretend to be interested.

I suspect he has few friends [of his own].


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

My first thought is that he is thinking of someone else. But you describe your situation as ok everywhere else.

I do agree that until your husband acknowledges that something is less than ideal (a nice way of saying wrong), you will not be able to have an adult to adult conversation about this.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I differentiate between excessively quiet and intentionally disruptive/hostile. 

If he is the just being excessively quiet - I would simply accept that. I might let my friends know in advance that he is very very quiet and not to interpret that as ummm - unfriendly.

Now - I have a family only shortlist of people whose presence - M2 has to accept. She can either play nice, or get left home. 

We had one trip like that. I left her home while visiting my sister. She tried hard to disrupt the trip in advance and when that failed, in retaliation for me going anyway she weaponized her parenting authority with our 17 year old. I forced her into a text exchange and in this super calm, super polite format described her behavior as - confusing. I wasn't the slightest bit confused and neither was she. FYI: she threatened to call our daughters work and tell them she was forcing daughter to quit. 

In the aftermath I stayed focused on one theme: My extended family loves you and is not a threat to you. I did gently reference being surprised about the daughter/work thing. But refrained from calling it what is was: The unhinged behavior of a controlling spouse who has gotten lost in a paranoid hall of mirrors and begins wildly firing at everything that moves - when in truth - everything moving is a reflection of themselves..... 




kag123 said:


> So what is the solution for this? Avoiding seeing friends isn't something I'm willing to do, and he isn't willing to peacefully stay home.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Note:

Some people are mute. I dated a beautiful lady who literally said nothing. At least she smiled a lot. 

And she was a tiger in bed!

I hated breaking up with her. It broke her heart. We simply were not compatible.

I need communication. Validation is optional though nice.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> I differentiate between excessively quiet and intentionally disruptive/hostile.
> 
> If he is the just being excessively quiet - I would simply accept that. I might let my friends know in advance that he is very very quiet and not to interpret that as ummm - unfriendly.
> 
> ...


Good one! Mr. Mem :smthumbup:


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Of late........

My immense patience with my spouse is getting thin....I am weary. Wary of some impending end to this [oh, so long] stretch in the desert.

I am getting snappy. Pushing back hard. It works for a day or so. I hate doing this. I like peace and quiet. Quiet times.

Women have it tough..their emotional intelligence is so ungainly, uneven, hindering. I [normally] am either Up or Flat....I hate Down.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I don't think he is intentionally rude, to be honest. 

If you didn't know him well and we met for dinner, you'd think he's just quiet. And that's fine. 

It's really more difficult with friends we know well. First, we often see them in many different social situations (adult parties, kids birthday parties) and so they see my H socializes there. He has no problem being a social butterfly in a large crowd and often leaves me in the dust to go talk to people. (I am totally fine with that btw.)

Close friends will then ask me privately, why was H so quiet at dinner? Was he having a bad day? I hope we didn't do anything to offend him. 

I can usually make an excuse for him in the beginning that is totally plausible and puts no blame on him or them. After awhile though they see the same pattern that I do. Happy at some events, quiet and withdrawn at others, and then they usually begin to think he doesn't like THEM. Things can turn uncomfortable at that point. We still maintain friendships and I just insist to those who ask that he really does like them, no nothing is going on with our marriage, and that he's just quiet and that's it. 

It makes me uncomfortable that HE is clearly uncomfortable and won't acknowledge it, and it makes me feel bad that our friends are clearly uncomfortable at times too. 

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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The truth is your friend. My older sister totally gets and accepts the situation. 

Tell your friends - he isn't good in small group settings. And then smile and add: no idea why he insists on coming given his near total silence - but he does. 

And fwiw - this is one of the high voltage lines running through our respective marriages. 

My main goal is not to add voltage to the line. And to take great care as I cross back and forth across it. 

Now - this is just me - but I'm a risk averse guy. I minimize crossings. 

But then - asked to choose between a divorce or being stranded on a desert island just the two of us - no contact with the outside world - I'd only ask only one question in reply. Do we get to say goodbye to everyone before we leave?




kag123 said:


> I don't think he is intentionally rude, to be honest.
> 
> If you didn't know him well and we met for dinner, you'd think he's just quiet. And that's fine.
> 
> ...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

I am like you in that I definitely don't want to add voltage to the line, either. I guess I just try to wrap my head around understanding his POV better, because I feel that if I could understand it, I could let go of some of my own resentment around it. But, he is not open about these things, so I'm left to rugsweep until the issue presents itself again in the future. Every so often I get enough nerve to hold onto the resentment for a few days and let it stew (as evidenced by my posting here) before I can let it go again. 

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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

I have followed your threads on TAM and it is evident to me that your husband deals with conflict or any unhappiness (on his part) through passive-aggressive behavior.

When a passive-aggressive person is unhappy with a decision or plan he will not vocalize it rather he will pretend to go along with it and punish others by being sullen or other sabotage (remember the festival from your other thread). In any mutual decision, conflict or negotiation he will not voice his preference or objections (whatever you want dear). He will float along with whatever is planned and punish others by not participating or he will sabotage it beforehand. If asked about his behavior he will pretend to not know what you are talking about (deny, gas-light). He also likes the attention is brings him from others … are you okay, is something wrong, etc.

My advice is to ignore the behavior while in public and later in private label the behavior (calling it what it is) and tell him how it makes you feel. For example, _calmly _tell him:

“I have this feeling that you were being passive-aggressive this evening. I think this because you were not engaging with me or our friends. When I start feeling this way, it makes me feel less close to you. From now on, I’m asking that you voice your preferences or annoyance more directly.” Do not engage him further on the subject, if he starts denying/gas-lighting just say “I am telling you how I _feel_” and walk away from the conversation. 

You must make the “call it what it is” statement each time he behaves this way. If he is sabotaging something in advance you can substitute “it makes me feel that I cannot rely on you” instead of “it makes me feel less close to you”, as in the festival/ticket incident. If you want to make your point more forcefully you can substitute “it makes me love you less” or “it makes me feel not attracted to you”. You get the idea but remember to only say what it truly makes you _feel _(in simple terms). Don’t ever ask him “why” or “what’s wrong” as he will never tell you and it is feeding his behavior. If friends ask you about his behavior just shrug, smile and say "I have no idea". 

Passive-aggressive is a learned behavior (usually in childhood) that is used to garner the attention of others. The person may (or may not) have low self-esteem or be narcissistic. If he is highly narcissistic he will play the passive-aggressive game forever, unfortunately.

Have you ever read this book? It may help you.

https://www.amazon.com/Living-Passive-Aggressive-Man-Personality-Aggression/dp/B00IIAY9U6/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1499027025&sr=8-11&keywords=passive+aggressive+man


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

So that's all true - why - at a certain point you go without him. 

You don't ask his permission and don't give him the choice. And you make the contrast in a couple short - totally unemotional sentences. 

I'm having dinner with X and Y next Thursday. I should be home by around HH PM. 

If he does the PA snark of - thanks for inviting me or radiates some messed up body language you smile and say: 

If this was a party, I would invite you and I would be super happy you were coming. You are visibly happy and interactive at parties. Unlike in these small group settings - where you are so determinedly quiet, even when spoken to - it's making our friends think YOU DONT LIKE THEM which I know isn't true. *It's simply not your favorite social context. *. Why I'm not dragging you along. 

------------
So - here's your branch point. If he fights you on this - the soft but firm move is: 

I love you, but - this isn't just a case of you being determinedly quiet, it's that you seem absolutely unaware of what impact that dynamic has on the other three folks at the table. So given all that, best I don't drag you along. 

Here's the point - he doesn't want to be there - full stop. The secondary truth is he doesn't want you going without him but that is the second point, not the first. 










Red Sonja said:


> I have followed your threads on TAM and it is evident to me that your husband deals with conflict or any unhappiness (on his part) through passive-aggressive behavior.
> 
> When a passive-aggressive person is unhappy with a decision or plan he will not vocalize it rather he will pretend to go along with it and punish others by being sullen or other sabotage (remember the festival from your other thread). In any mutual decision, conflict or negotiation he will not voice his preference or objections (whatever you want dear). He will float along with whatever is planned and punish others by not participating or he will sabotage it beforehand. If asked about his behavior he will pretend to not know what you are talking about (deny, gas-light). He also likes the attention is brings him from others … are you okay, is something wrong, etc.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Just recognize all that voltage - comes from fear - and what with this being a harmless situation - that fear is best described as a phobia. Not being judgemental. 

I've written a lot about this on TAM. My phobias are almost all related to the mechanics of the world. M2's are mostly intangible / control based. 

But there is NO MEANINGFUL difference between our phobias. 

Why - even if I were to leave M2 behind - I'd still do all that reassurance stuff try to put her at ease much as I could. 





kag123 said:


> I don't think he is intentionally rude, to be honest.
> 
> If you didn't know him well and we met for dinner, you'd think he's just quiet. And that's fine.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,

The one area - where maybe the professional psych folks diverge from me is this. I actually believe motivation matters. 

So in these situations - M2 feels bad (frightened but then the fear converts into high octane anger) and is trying to feel less bad by getting me to stop doing whatever triggers her - phobia(s).

Why my response is focused on reassurance. Not in a condescending way. 




kag123 said:


> I am like you in that I definitely don't want to add voltage to the line, either. I guess I just try to wrap my head around understanding his POV better, because I feel that if I could understand it, I could let go of some of my own resentment around it. But, he is not open about these things, so I'm left to rugsweep until the issue presents itself again in the future. Every so often I get enough nerve to hold onto the resentment for a few days and let it stew (as evidenced by my posting here) before I can let it go again.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Warrior73 (Jun 25, 2017)

kag123 said:


> He could totally think I talk too much. He has always been a man of few words, and we don't talk much as a result to each other. I know that sounds wierd. We just don't have those long winding conversations at all because he doesn't want to. So when I'm with friends I tend to let that side of me out, maybe he finds me annoying. It's hard because I feel a deficit of that type of interaction in my life since he doesn't talk much, so when I do get a taste of it by going out with friends I feel energized and happy. And he seems to glean the exact opposite from being out with friends in those scenarios (or maybe just me lol).
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


In one post you say is is more extroverted than you, in another post you say he is very social at large events. In this post you say he doesn't talk much...you are contradicting yourself...which is it? Just because he doesn't like to talk doesn't mean he is sulking or unhappy. If that's who he is then that's who he is...leave it be and stop getting pissed off because he isn't being what you want him to be!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

kag123 said:


> *I don't think he is intentionally rude, to be honest.*
> 
> If you didn't know him well and we met for dinner, you'd think he's just quiet. And that's fine.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if it's a good idea to be so generous. Possibly one of these days, he's going to say or do something that will make you realize that he had always intended to never make an effort. Some people are like that.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Do you think it is fair for you and he to continue to subject your friends to his anti-social behavior? Can you imagine the conversation they have on the way home? If you want to remain friends with the women, do so without dragging the husbands along. That way no one will be uncomfortable.

I don't think it is a good idea to force yourself to have sex with him when not in a loving mood. It sends the message that he can treat you any way he wants and you will still put out (and that is all that you are doing). You can start to feel used and resentment can build. If he wants a loving wife, then he needs to treat you in a loving manner. And, plastering a smile on his face and digging a little deeper into his big bag of words for convo with friends is what a loving spouse does. And, it is not like it's a really BIG sacrifice for him.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Red Sonja said:


> I have followed your threads on TAM and it is evident to me that your husband deals with conflict or any unhappiness (on his part) through passive-aggressive behavior.
> 
> When a passive-aggressive person is unhappy with a decision or plan he will not vocalize it rather he will pretend to go along with it and punish others by being sullen or other sabotage (remember the festival from your other thread). In any mutual decision, conflict or negotiation he will not voice his preference or objections (whatever you want dear). He will float along with whatever is planned and punish others by not participating or he will sabotage it beforehand. If asked about his behavior he will pretend to not know what you are talking about (deny, gas-light). He also likes the attention is brings him from others … are you okay, is something wrong, etc.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the reply and the book suggestion! I've been here at TAM for a few years and isn't it funny - I forgot about the thread you were referencing (and the actual incident IRL). I guess the brain is good at rugsweeping? I tend to consciously focus on the positive and try to let go of negative feelings in my marriage as much as I can. I know that harboring resentment isn't healthy for our marriage. 

I agree that I see PA tendencies in his behavior. It's hard for me to say he's a "passive aggressive person" 100% of the time though, because to me it seems like that implies he's being purposefully abusive, and I don't think that he is a bad person. He certainly treats me well at least 99% of the time. I think he is extremely conflict avoidant, and withholds his true self from me a lot of the time due to fear of conflict...but this is getting slowly better with each year we are married. 

I'll take a look at the book! 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Kag,
> 
> The one area - where maybe the professional psych folks diverge from me is this. I actually believe motivation matters.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that I also feel motivation matters.

His behavior is problematic, but if I know at its root it's caused by fear rather than some malice he has for me - that makes a huge difference to me in how I feel about it myself. A damaging behavior that is for self protection is different than a damaging behavior that was purposefully aimed at me to bring me down. On the outside both look the same, but I care about the actions intent. 

I guess that's why I dig a bit trying to get him to open up, but I learned a long time ago the more I dig for answers, the higher the walls go up. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Warrior73 said:


> In one post you say is is more extroverted than you, in another post you say he is very social at large events. In this post you say he doesn't talk much...you are contradicting yourself...which is it? Just because he doesn't like to talk doesn't mean he is sulking or unhappy. If that's who he is then that's who he is...leave it be and stop getting pissed off because he isn't being what you want him to be!


Sorry - I guess that IS confusing. 

I am an introvert. The ONLY social situation that I feel at ease with are small get togethers with people I know well. Parties, especially in large crowds of people I don't know, and any situation where I am forced to meet new people, bring me a LOT of anxiety. 

My husband makes friends more easily than I do. He has absolutely no problem talking to strangers and loves going to parties and work events. We usually get into a tiff right before a big party because I will let my anxiety take over and hem and haw saying I don't want to go. He will get mad at me because we already have one foot out the door. Once we get there, he's having a great time. I can usually position myself at a party to have a good time too. It is still very draining for me and when it's time to leave I am thankful. He could stay till they kick him out and still not want to leave. I have always chalked this up to my H being an extrovert socially while I am an introvert socially. 

When we see the SAME friends that we go to dinner with at a party, he will walk right up to them and chat away. Put the same group of people at a table somewhere more intimate, and he shuts down. His behavior is situation dependent. Small intimate dinners or gatherings = he is quiet and withdrawn. This is what usually leads our friends to ask me later if he was upset with them, or if he just doesn't like them, because they notice the 180 in his behavior between those situations. 

I hope that clears it up. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Do you think it is fair for you and he to continue to subject your friends to his anti-social behavior? Can you imagine the conversation they have on the way home? If you want to remain friends with the women, do so without dragging the husbands along. That way no one will be uncomfortable.
> 
> I don't think it is a good idea to force yourself to have sex with him when not in a loving mood. It sends the message that he can treat you any way he wants and you will still put out (and that is all that you are doing). You can start to feel used and resentment can build. If he wants a loving wife, then he needs to treat you in a loving manner. And, plastering a smile on his face and digging a little deeper into his big bag of words for convo with friends is what a loving spouse does. And, it is not like it's a really BIG sacrifice for him.


Regarding our friends - I agree with you, honestly. Sometimes I'd rather have a gathering that was all wives just so that I'd have a legitimate excuse to leave him home without the hurt feelings involved. 

We don't often go out without husbands, and I am friends with all of the husbands too so I genuinely want to see both sides of the couple. In my circle most of the wives wouldn't dream of going out without their husbands. We enjoy spending time with our spouses and we are all careful to protect our marriages from any appearance of wrongdoing. I know that might sound crazy to some people. So, a girls night here or there is fine, but in my circle it would not happen too frequently because we intertwine our husbands into every facet of our lives and feel that spending an excessive amount of time socializing without them is not good for our marriages. 

Regarding sex - I am the LD one of the marriage so I tend to make sure we have sex on some sort of regular basis. Sometimes that means we do it when I am not really into it. I don't think that is such a bad thing. I don't make it seem like I'm just lying there hating it by any means. If I withhold from him every time I don't feel well, or I'm mad, or we just aren't emotionally connecting the way I'd like to, we'd probably never have sex. I'd rather make sure we keep that part of our marriage alive to prevent further damage to the marriage from going sexless. 

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

alte Dame said:


> My H would do this whenever the event was something that I planned as opposed to something the he or we planned. He didn't like 'being told what to do.' I went to endless work events for him, socialized with his friends, and had constant contact with his family, but he still was often quiet and/or sullen at 'my' events. He even did this if I organized something for our family on the weekend - if it wasn't his plan or idea, then I was 'telling him what to do.'
> 
> Perhaps you're dealing with this sort of power struggle? If so, I can tell you that I just started ignoring my H's behavior. If he started in with it, I told him he didn't have to participate and I would proceed without him. Being left out, esp. when it came to things with the kids, changed some of the dynamic.


Exact same problem here. If it's HIS stuff, he's loving the attention. If it's mine, nothing. It's like he's humiliated or thinks people think he's being henpecked or something. 

I would record him the next time you go out, and play it back for him. With video, if possible.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

kag123 said:


> I agree that I see PA tendencies in his behavior. *It's hard for me to say he's a "passive aggressive person*" 100% of the time though


Perhaps you misunderstood me. In my post, my advice is to call his *behavior *what it is (passive-aggressive) and deal with it as it occurs. To label the behavior and not the person.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Red Sonja said:


> Perhaps you misunderstood me. In my post, my advice is to call his *behavior *what it is (passive-aggressive) and deal with it as it occurs. To label the behavior and not the person.


You're right, I didn't understand the distinction initially. Isn't everyone a little bit PA at times? I know I've done some things that are PA here and there. But I agree with labeling the behavior for what it is. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

This is why I tend to let things slide with my H when it comes to this behavior. 99% of the time he's a great guy and treats me so well. 

My mom was very recently diagnosed with breast cancer (within the last 2 weeks) and last night had a health scare when we were visiting with my parents that sent her to the ER. The health issue may or may not have been related to the cancer, we didn't get conclusive answers on that. As a result I spent 15 hrs overnight and into the morning in the ER with my mom while my H got the kids home and took care of them. I don't think he slept at all last night himself, he was texting me to check in every hour and asking me if he could come be with us. I told him to stay home. Once we found out overnight my mom was going to be discharged, we had a long wait for that to actually happen. As soon as he found out he wanted to come pick me up and bring me home so I could sleep. I eventually let him come pick me up around 9am when our kids had woken up for the day. My dad was taking my mom home and I had ridden in the ambulance to the ER. 

He had made up the passenger seat of the car into a "bed" with a pillow and blanket for me, brought me breakfast in the car, and had the kids in the back with snacks to keep them quiet so I could sleep on the way home. Then when we got home he put me to bed and had put blankets up over our windows to make the room dark, and took the kids out of the house for a few hours so I could sleep in a quiet house. 

Once I woke up he came to find out more details about my mom and hear the story from me. 

So I know he cares. And he spends more time acting good to me than not. It's just hard to deal some of these specific behaviors that we can't seem to talk about. 

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why can't you talk about them?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think it may be pretty simple, actually, OP. He knows you're an introvert, while he's the engaging, gregarious, fun to be around, extrovert. He likes parties because he shines in that environment, whereas "everyone" knows you're "not as fun". But at intimate dinners, you feel more engaged, gregarious, talkative, and suddenly you're just as fun to be around as he is. But...but..._he's_ supposed to be the fun one that everyone talks to and is excited to see, not you! You're not staying within your designated role - quiet, shy, introverted wife. The altered dynamic makes him uncomfortable, and he dislikes sharing that spotlight with you. So he draws attention back to himself in a passive aggressive way by being noticeably silent and sulky, then denying or gas-lighting you about it. He can basically "do nothing" and still manage to get everyone's attention, most especially yours, while also covertly punishing you by embarrassing you in front of your friends. Afterward, the dynamic just shifts back into the normal pattern - him the center of fun, you the quiet one - so everything is normal in his worldview again.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Why can't you talk about them?


See post #5. He basically refuses to have a conversation about it. 

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, but doesn't mean you can't tell him YOUR side of it. Along with a healthy dose of consequences.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Yeah, but doesn't mean you can't tell him YOUR side of it. Along with a healthy dose of consequences.


Oh, he's heard my side tons of times. This isn't a new problem. He just doesn't react. 

I have not levied any consequences. That's on me. It feels....harsh. Especially because he's a good guy 90% of the time. Like right now, I'm not mad at him at all for this dinner thing anymore. So much has happened between now and then, and he's done a lot of good in that time so it's no longer a sore point for the moment. I usually tell myself this is one of those "pick your battle" things. Every so often though my frustration boils over, and here I am posting about it. 

What I want most is to understand his POV. That can't be achieved without his willingness to share it. As MEM said earlier, there are a few things in our marriage that are "high voltage" and for some reason this is one of them. Seems like a trivial thing to be so closed off about, but for some reason he is. 

I also tend to think that being harsh with consequences won't provide the atmosphere that encourages him to share his thoughts with me. Like doling out a punishment = being critical or judgmental. I'll admit that the current path isn't getting me anywhere closer to enlightenment though. 

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Consequences don't have to be harsh. In fact, if you do it right, and explain up front what you'll 'have' to do, a consequence is just logical.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> Consequences don't have to be harsh. In fact, if you do it right, and explain up front what you'll 'have' to do, a consequence is just logical.


Discomfort in a small intimate setting is not a decision, it is a personality trait. I highly doubt this is a good vs bad thing. Discussing consequences is meaningless, and would be viewed by him as unjust. Introverts come in many flavors.

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You make it sound like I'm telling her to be a biotch. I'm just saying to say something like "I was really uncomfortable at dinner with the Smiths last month, and they told me they were uncomfortable, too. If you don't want to go out with someone, just say so. I'll be happy to go alone or meet up some other way. But if you say you want to go, and then you shut down again like last month, I'm going to apologize to whoever we're with, and I'm going to call a cab and go home alone."


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> You make it sound like I'm telling her to be a biotch. I'm just saying to say something like "I was really uncomfortable at dinner with the Smiths last month, and they told me they were uncomfortable, too. If you don't want to go out with someone, just say so. I'll be happy to go alone or meet up some other way. But if you say you want to go, and then you shut down again like last month, I'm going to apologize to whoever we're with, and I'm going to call a cab and go home alone."


That sounds quite fair. Fwiw many introverts don't realize how different they are from other folks....or they are doing their best to just fit in, and won't admit to their discomfort.....humans can be most complicated...lol

But your last, more detailed post, states her case in a balanced fashion. Hopefully it works for her

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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Anything I'd consider / react to based on what you have written is pure speculation.

So going by what he's told you, nothing is wrong. 

What happens if you don't ask him if he had a good night, enjoyed the food etc? In a nutshell, stop checking in on him. Have a good evening with friends. If he wants to be quiet, so be it. Try to keep grounded within yourself. 

You've tried talking with him, expressed yourself, showed concern... so what happens when you cut that out - can that potentially change the dynamic/pattern? Of the options that you can change, it seems this would be one of them.

And it's not for you to shut down on him, or stew inside, it's simply to genuinely let go of feeling responsible for his mood and whether he had a good night or not. Accept that's who he was in that scenario and you still had a bloody good evening regardless. 

If he decides to share why he's quiet at those times (if he's even aware that he is), that's on him. He's grown folk.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hearts,
Your suggestion is best, it is the lowest voltage play and the overall best move. 

Leaving him home injects voltage into what is already a high voltage line. It draws attention to a flaw that he is ashamed of. It's why he gaslights her about it. 

And for clarity, he is in the wrong. It is simply a situation where going frontal is going to break more glass than it's worth. And a frontal approach is to leave him home when she meets another couple. 







heartsbeating said:


> Anything I'd consider / react to based on what you have written is pure speculation.
> 
> So going by what he's told you, nothing is wrong.
> 
> ...


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

All this expectation is doing is creating unhappiness all around... why can't it be left to fade away?

Ask if everything is ok, accept his answer, and let it go.

My wife came home last night in a demure mood. In fact, I used just that word with her when after a couple one word responses (not her most of the time) and said "you seem demure, tough day"? She said to me "maybe this is a time to use that when "you-I feel" tool you keep talking about". I said "you're right... when you seem reserved, I feel curious because I am not able to read your mind when you are quiet like that to know if you want conversation or space". 

Funnily enough, along the lines of this thread she said "there isn't anything wrong".

I had a one word reply... "cool", and then accepted it like it was what she said ignoring my perception that she was different than she said.

Why complicate it... just accept instead of injecting a different script into it thinking our "knowing" different is going to rewrite the conversation.

What I ended up understanding was if I expected my perception to be right, I would have to accept the bad feelings that came from such.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Hearts,
> Your suggestion is best, it is the lowest voltage play and the overall best move.
> 
> Leaving him home injects voltage into what is already a high voltage line. It draws attention to a flaw that he is ashamed of. It's why he gaslights her about it.
> ...


So I agree with both of you and this is the track I've been taking for the most part. It's why I cringed a bit when the suggestion was made to leave him home or put down consequences - because literally any of those moves will result in making the atmosphere worse. 

I don't actually ask him anything about whether he had fun, anymore. I used to. I stopped talking to him about it a couple of years ago when I realized it only made things worse. I don't draw attention to him when he behaves this way. In fact, I pretty much ignore him completely and keep the convo going with my friends. 

What bothers me about it is that: 

A) it quite obviously makes our friends uncomfortable and by extension also makes me uncomfortable, 

B) I personally consider the behavior to be impolite. I don't like parties but I don't go sit silent in a corner when we go to one, I force myself to converse with people and appear friendly because it is important to me to represent my H well and to be polite. Fo i enjoy it? Not really. But, as someone else mentioned - it's not THAT hard to just suck it up and do it, and 

C) his demeanor has a huge wet blanket effect once we leave these get togethers. I'm happy after spending time with friends and want to share my happiness with him, but he is quiet and sulky the rest of the evening, which immediately brings me down. It's not so much being responsible for his feelings, it's frustration that the good time has to end so abruptly when we could continue having a good time together after the event is over. C is what irritates me the most at this moment. 

I learned to pretty much stay away from him when he acts this way and let him cool off, and by the next day he is back to normal. It's just difficult to deal with even with trying to reset my expectations, and detaching myself from his mood. I want to mutually enjoy spending adult time away from our kids, not feel like I'm dragging an anchor around with me. 

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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> All this expectation is doing is creating unhappiness all around... why can't it be left to fade away?
> 
> Ask if everything is ok, accept his answer, and let it go.
> 
> ...


But the difference seems to be that this was out of the norm for your wife. 

This isn't out of the norm for my H. And if your wife was clearly in one of those moods on a consistent basis and always insisted "nothing is wrong" wouldn't you find it a bit frustrating to be around after awhile? 

I can ignore it and I do so as not to add fuel to the fire - but it still doesn't make me less frustrated with the behavior at times. Particularly the wet blanket effect. Ruins a perfectly good evening together! We have small kids so we don't always have time alone, when it gets ruined I get upset. 

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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

kag123 said:


> But the difference seems to be that this was out of the norm for your wife.
> 
> This isn't out of the norm for my H. And if your wife was clearly in one of those moods on a consistent basis and always insisted "nothing is wrong" wouldn't you find it a bit frustrating to be around after awhile?
> 
> ...


This is true, it is but was one of the stronger ones when it did come... the look was serious and deadpan. The others are much more subtle but can grow quickly if I challenge the mood, thus diffused with a word and a smile then let go because in honesty... it is.

Perhaps he really isn't sure himself of himself? Instead of asking him if he had fun, simply say "that was fun!" and if he doesn't respond don't get tripped up in your expectations and then there is no mood from you to detach and extract. 

You said in an earlier posting you ignore him when he walls up, plus keep convo's going with your friends in front of him. I'm sure it looks like taking sides to him and being singled out. Part of his behavior may be that isn't well received up front on top of being out of sorts in the situation and it shuts him down from the sharing more quickly in an already uncomfortable place.

Under who's expectations is this square peg going to fit the smaller crowd hole and why make excuses?

Just smile and say "K2 is like that sometimes, no worries" and let... it... go... 

If not, one of you is going to have to face a reality that may or may not be compromised to a satisfaction.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> All this expectation is doing is creating unhappiness all around... why can't it be left to fade away?
> 
> Ask if everything is ok, accept his answer, and let it go.


Because that approach is denigrating everyone else's feelings just to save his. And he is the instigator.

It seems to me that if he is allowed to just throw his little fits and pout during outings, (1) it doesn't address WHY he is doing it and (2) everyone ELSE is going to end up dreading events that include him. And where does that leave her? An outcast. 

I have that kind of husband, who does things nobody else would find acceptable. I spent nearly 40 years letting him do it, him being unacceptable in front of other people, I was afraid to confront him, thought he'd get better. He didn't. Today, he is 'the' neighbor - the one everyone else talks about, the one nobody invites to events - and by association, I also no longer get invited. 

IMO, that is not a solution.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

turnera said:


> Because that approach is denigrating everyone else's feelings just to save his. And he is the instigator.
> 
> It seems to me that if he is allowed to just throw his little fits and pout during outings, (1) it doesn't address WHY he is doing it and (2) everyone ELSE is going to end up dreading events that include him. And where does that leave her? An outcast.
> 
> ...


I haven't read that he is "throwing fits", just that he is so reserved that he is making others uncomfortable in a setting of expectation.

It's in the questioning after the evening that he becomes short...

Are you seeing him in a different role than I?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yes. He is being passive aggressive. His 'fit' comes in the form of being a pouting, uncooperative presence at what is supposed to be a welcoming, fun event. He CHOOSES to be uncooperative, for whatever reason he has - a reason he then REFUSES to expound upon and even punishes her for if she brings it up. In other words, he is controlling. He has conditioned her not to question him; therefore, he is in control of the situation in all aspects. 

Until she decides not to participate anymore. 

btw, this advice comes from my therapist. For my sake as well as for my husband's.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

"Toe the line", eh?

I see it differently...

The smaller the group in a certain box, the less comfortable he is... how he is, who he is.

In a larger group the less attention he perceives as directed at him, the more he relaxes... even though his lively extrovert projects differently and from his socializing, he doesn't see it that way.

His gears mesh differently and it is ok for him, he endures in the self-imposed expectation that he needs to be there and when it's done, it's done, not so much for K1... that is why he is fine later and she isn't.

When he can let that go and be himself, the better it will be for both when he can say "nope, not interested".

That isn't passive aggressive... that is a set of shackles, self-imposed.

K1's struggle will be accepting K2's struggle to find the right key in a timely manner for them both.

Each own's a role they cannot successfully impose on the other.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Yes. He is being passive aggressive. His 'fit' comes in the form of being a pouting, uncooperative presence at what is supposed to be a welcoming, fun event. He CHOOSES to be uncooperative, for whatever reason he has - a reason he then REFUSES to expound upon and even punishes her for if she brings it up. In other words, he is controlling. He has conditioned her not to question him; therefore, he is in control of the situation in all aspects.
> 
> Until she decides not to participate anymore.
> 
> btw, this advice comes from my therapist. For my sake as well as for my husband's.


This is correct, btw. Whether the PA moves come from wanting to control or just being uncomfortable in the situation and ashamed of it, I don't know. 

What a spouse "should" do IMO is participate kindly and smile through it for the sake of their spouse who enjoys the activity. And if it's something they really don't want to do, say so ahead of time and ask to be left at home. 

If you're just having a bad night, say so. It's even acceptable to say "I don't really want to talk about it" and leave it at that. It's not ok to punish the person who cares about you for wanting to make things better, kwim?

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I know that EB is trying to get you to empathize with him so that he is more inclined to work with you. And I'm trying to get you to protect yourself. Something most people have trouble doing. So see if you can find a halfway point. Empathize but still hold firm. It's ok to say no. 

To that end, have you ever read the book The Dance Of Anger? It's very often recommended by therapists for women, who have trouble setting a boundary. It teaches you how to do so in a loving way so that nobody gets their knickers in a bunch.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,

Just a couple observations regarding what helped me get the best possible overall outcome. 


1. I don't make this stuff about me - so it generally doesn't upset me
2. Not only is my delivery calm, my descriptors are emotionally neutral
3. The focus isn't ON me and I don't let it become shifted to me

For instance I might say: If there is anything I can do to make this situation more fun for you, just say the word. 






kag123 said:


> This is correct, btw. Whether the PA moves come from wanting to control or just being uncomfortable in the situation and ashamed of it, I don't know.
> 
> What a spouse "should" do IMO is participate kindly and smile through it for the sake of their spouse who enjoys the activity. And if it's something they really don't want to do, say so ahead of time and ask to be left at home.
> 
> ...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> I know that EB is trying to get you to empathize with him so that he is more inclined to work with you. And I'm trying to get you to protect yourself. Something most people have trouble doing. So see if you can find a halfway point. Empathize but still hold firm. It's ok to say no.
> 
> To that end, have you ever read the book The Dance Of Anger? It's very often recommended by therapists for women, who have trouble setting a boundary. It teaches you how to do so in a loving way so that nobody gets their knickers in a bunch.


I appreciate both of you being willing to help! I will check out the book, thank you. I do have trouble setting certain boundaries. I find it difficult because I truly adore him and feel indebted to him because of how good he has been to me in most areas of our life. This is just one of his flaws. I have many myself. 

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The book discusses women's natural tendency to give more, expect less, accept less, than men. Which creates a lopsided relationship. Fifty years ago, when women had few options, we often were willing to accept a lesser status. But today, when women have options, we are often expecting more of an equal relationship. The book helps you achieve that.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

I do think empathy is critical as an inroad to understanding and invites cooperation when we often do not understand, at least initially, why we behave in certain environments and conditions.

I have been out in couples do's where one of the party goes into social "vapor-lock". As the night progresses the opposite partner tend to get a bit miffed with the whole thing and I can only imagine it often ends like kag123 deals with if something isn't changed up. It still may even if things warm back up.

I hesitate to use "Passive Aggressive" too liberally, it is used so often for everything that no one is allowed to just be uncomfortable anymore. Get the silent treatment for several days, then yeh... I might buy into such behavior but to be over it the next day, I think there is something else triggering (we all have triggers, I tripped EB2's just today) and he isn't confident dealing with it.

I still drift towards him holding himself way too accountable and taking himself way too serious in escorting you to any of these do's and he is angry over it in ways he is not addressing. I think both @turnera's book on anger and @MEM2020's suggestion on calm without owning behavior are an advantage.

If I am not understanding your scenario well, at least I'll be wrong with a kind approach instead of a chastising one.

I know I smile a lot more these days like that.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

How about a little experiment? On your next small group outing, as you are entering the venue, lightly touch your husband's arm and say "Honey, I'm not feeling quite up to snuff tonight. Would you carry the conversation for us?" If he obliges, you'll know that he is capable of participating. It may be that he wants to be the center of attention. If he still clams up, you'll know he's not capable of socializing in these circumstances.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> How about a little experiment? On your next small group outing, as you are entering the venue, lightly touch your husband's arm and say "Honey, I'm not feeling quite up to snuff tonight. Would you carry the conversation for us?" If he obliges, you'll know that he is capable of participating. It may be that he wants to be the center of attention. If he still clams up, you'll know he's not capable of socializing in these circumstances.


Oh, this has happened before. 

I have some health issues that can cause me to feel suddenly ill. When that happens I desperately want to cancel all plans we have and crawl into bed. My H will remind me though, that it's not nice to cancel at the very last minute, especially given the logistics involved for all of us to get babysitters lined up to see each other. He's right so I will dose myself heavily with meds and just go. I can make it through the evening, it just impacts my desire to be social with anyone when I'm not feeling well. 

Anyway- this has happened several times, and I've asked him to carry us through. He will first get a irritated with me for even asking that "What?....Really?" and then nothing really changes at the event once we get there. It's still on me to do the talking and be polite. I've pretty much given up hiding my illness from my close friends at this point, because it was too much for me to hide it anymore in these situations. I now just tell our friends the truth if I am arriving in the middle of a flare and apologize in advance for being more quiet than usual because I am not feeling well. That has worked fine. I don't involve H anymore in that at all, because he won't change his behavior regardless of what is going on with me. 

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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

kag123, for me that is an example to me of being bound holding to a commitment (obsessive?)... it seems he doesn't think it's ok to say "no" nor bow out of something if changes happen to a detriment. You agree with him and choose that one suffering (you not feeling well) is more important than another (meeting a social obligation that he may have to carry).

Your choices are neither right nor wrong if they work for you... but it doesn't seem they do even when you agree together on how things should be in this scenario, especially when you enter into them with conflict as the foundation.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Well, I got nothing for ya. It seems you are bound and determined to tip-toe around his machinations and manipulations. But, I'll tell you this: I would be damned if I would carry the load if I was feeling ill. I would simply cancel and then inform him.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> Well, I got nothing for ya. *It seems you are bound and determined to tip-toe around his machinations and manipulations.* But, I'll tell you this: I would be damned if I would carry the load if I was feeling ill. I would simply cancel and then inform him.


:iagree:

I did this dance for many years during my marriage. We are not married anymore.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Well, I got nothing for ya. It seems you are bound and determined to tip-toe around his machinations and manipulations. But, I'll tell you this: I would be damned if I would carry the load if I was feeling ill. I would simply cancel and then inform him.


To be fair - he does not force me to go. I feel the same way that he does about it being rude to cancel at the last minute. It is particularly difficult because I am ill suddenly more than a normal person would be. We would be cancelling and rescheduling many times if I blew off plans every time that I was feeling bad. I force myself to do a lot of things when I am sick and try to stick to as many of the commitments I made as possible. 

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Has he done this every single time it's something you invited him to? And he doesn't do it when it's something he invites YOU to?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Has he done this every single time it's something you invited him to? And he doesn't do it when it's something he invites YOU to?


I am the social calendar keeper and the maker of plans, so the only thing he has ever "invited" me to are his company events such as yearly picnics or banquets that he is expected to attend. That only happens because those are the only events where the invitation only comes to him, instead of to both of us. I don't love going to those things but understand it is about appearances and I am expected to attend and represent him (just as he does the same when it's my company event). 

He acts this way 90% of the time that the plans include small gatherings like meeting another couple for dinner. He does not behave this way in large gatherings such as parties or when we meet people for large group events such as the fairs and festivals we like to go to. I think as long as the attention is well divided and there are lots of things to focus on except for intimate conversation, he enjoys himself. When it's a dinner focused on catching up and talking with other people, he shuts down. He doesn't like to talk. Small talk and surface level pleasantries are fine, but when you are sitting with people over the course of 2-3 hrs confined to a table, the surface level conversation is done within the first 15 minutes so he's sort of like a prisoner at the table in a situation that makes him uncomfortable. Any deep conversations he dislikes. 

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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Why does he go?


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## Martins97 (Jul 2, 2017)

Can you think of any reasons why he acts this way?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Openminded said:


> Why does he go?


He claims he enjoys going and wants to be there. His actions show otherwise, but he will always insist he liked being there if asked. He gets upset if I suggest he does not attend. 


Martins97 said:


> Can you think of any reasons why he acts this way?


I assume he is uncomfortable, but I don't know why. 

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## InspiralImplode (Jun 13, 2017)

I think its a power struggle with him too. Maybe he is even jealous that you can carry the conversation without him and your friends enjoy your company. This makes him look like an ass to your friends as well. How long until they don't want to invite you or you as a couple anymore? 

I wonder what would happen if you suggested that he just stay home if he isn't in the mood to be social? Or tell him you're going out to dinner with them and leave without him? 

My husband does this with my friends and family, but not our friends. I am pleasant to everyone we know. It's very seething.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I did this dance for many years during my marriage. We are not married anymore.


The way I see it - this is a very small issue in an otherwise good marriage. It's annoying, yes. And sometimes my frustration with it boils over. However, since the date of my original posting, we've had nothing but fantastic days together. We just spent an entire weekend having a great time together with our kids and being happy. I don't see this issue alone as being worth going nuclear over and blowing up the marriage. 

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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

kag123 said:


> I don't see this issue alone as being worth going nuclear over and blowing up the marriage.


I'm certainly not recommending that you blow up your marriage over one issue. But this type of behavior is _usually_ part of a more pervasive pattern. (Notice I said usually )

My ex did this to me in many other much more subtle ways. Took me quite awhile to figure out I was being gaslighted.

But it sounds like all else is good in your book, so I'll give it a rest .


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Yesterday we got a wedding invitation in the mail for one my H's coworkers. They have worked together for about 15 years sitting at desks right next to each other that whole time, but H has never hung out with the guy outside of work. 

I knew his coworker as an acquaintance from company events and such but never spent any time with the guy really. 

My H couldn't tell you a relevant detail about this guy's life, he didn't know his fiance's name or that he was getting married (!) until we got the invitation. Anytime the coworker ever came up in conversation in the past, and I asked a question about him (Where is he from, how is he doing, etc) my H says "I don't know, we don't talk to each other like that". Essentially he's said hi and bye to this guy, and talked only about work related details when they happen to be sharing a project, for 15 years. 

I was very surprised to see the invitation come in the mail and said "Wow! I can't believe WE were invited to his wedding! He must be having one of those huge weddings where he invites literally every person he knows!" 

H says - Why would you say that? We have been really good friends for 15 years. (Really good friends...but you know nothing about him?)

The next day he told the coworker we received his invitation and would RSVP soon, and I guess due to my comment asked him how big his wedding was. He only invited 75 people. That's way less than what I had imagined when I saw we were invited...I assumed we were like guest #298/299 out of 300. 

I'm happy to be invited, just surprised still at my H's definition of a good friend - and I guess I'm the one who is crazy, since clearly the coworker also felt the same way about my H if he was inviting us to his wedding! 

I also feel a little bad that we did not invite this guy to OUR wedding 9 years ago. H was working with him back then and we didn't invite any coworkers to our wedding at all. My definition of "good friend" means I see you outside of work and we have a relationship that involves our personal life, not just work. So I never even thought to include coworkers in the guest list for our wedding. 

Perhaps this is a male vs. female thing, the difference in perspective about how you interact with someone you consider to be a friend. 



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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Maybe they just don't know that many people. If my DD26's upcoming wedding only included our family, there would be 10 people. If we included friends, maybe 20. With DD's friends, maybe 50. Thank goodness the guy she's marrying has 100 people in his family.

But I gotta say, that was a pretty thoughtless thing for you to say to your husband. He HAD to defend himself after you basically insulted him.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

We had a really small wedding too, around 35ish people because we don't know that many people either. It just didn't occur to me to even extend invitations to coworkers, I guess. 

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It could have been a wide variety of reasons. Maybe the pricing for 75 was better than the pricing for 50. Maybe she was embarrassed to only have 40 people. Who knows? Just be gracious and go.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

kag, from your description of your husband's personality it sounds like he doesn't have any real friends. Does he have male friends with whom he plays a sport or just gets together with once in a while? Any friends from college or childhood? 

I don't understand how he can consider that guy a good friend, either. He can be a good friend at work, maybe. Unless the friendship extends beyond the work hours, then it is situational friendship only.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

My H does not go out alone with friends without me. I don't normally either- mostly just because all of our friends are married and we all socialize with each other as couples for the most part, so we are normally invited to things as a couple. Maybe 1-2x a year there will be a "girls night" with our friends that I will attend. H is invited to poker nights a few times a year, but he won't go to them since I am not invited. I always tell him he should go, but he says he doesn't want to. I don't really understand it but I can't make him go. 

A large majority of our friends are from H's high school and college days, well before I entered his life. All of those guys grew up and got married so now all of the wives are friends with each other, and the wives mostly run the social circle we have. For example, I would get invitations from one of the other wives to get together for dinner or for a party, even if the invitation is to both of us. The husbands nevet call each other or initiate making plans together. I dont know why. They used to be just "his" friends but now that we are all married I consider us all to be mutual friends. 

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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,
Your recurring theme is: *The principle of gestalt*

It is a theme I share. In their own ways both K2 and M2 excel in the dessert island scenario and can behave in a difficult or awkward way with others. 

Since we spend most of our time with them - and they are excellent companions - the gestalt is good. 

It may be that Kag will reach a place where she is able to do this thing M2 taught me. 

Playful banter about the topic in question with a bookend of - you know you are irresistible right? 

The point of that is to emphasize that the thing in question doesn't need to be hidden or denied - because in total it isn't that big a deal....




kag123 said:


> My H does not go out alone with friends without me. I don't normally either- mostly just because all of our friends are married and we all socialize with each other as couples for the most part, so we are normally invited to things as a couple. Maybe 1-2x a year there will be a "girls night" with our friends that I will attend. H is invited to poker nights a few times a year, but he won't go to them since I am not invited. I always tell him he should go, but he says he doesn't want to. I don't really understand it but I can't make him go.
> 
> A large majority of our friends are from H's high school and college days, well before I entered his life. All of those guys grew up and got married so now all of the wives are friends with each other, and the wives mostly run the social circle we have. For example, I would get invitations from one of the other wives to get together for dinner or for a party, even if the invitation is to both of us. The husbands nevet call each other or initiate making plans together. I dont know why. They used to be just "his" friends but now that we are all married I consider us all to be mutual friends.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Magnesium (Jun 19, 2017)

kag123 said:


> I have not levied any consequences. That's on me. It feels....harsh. Especially because he's a good guy 90% of the time.


Any idea how many people are spending decades or lifetimes in prison because that 5% of their being that isn't great came out and did something awful?

Bad *behaviors* require consequences. We discipline our children for poor behavior...and not because they're not great people most of the time.

You teach people how to treat you. Boundaries are a good thing, especially good in a marriage or other very close relationship. There are kind, effective, loving ways to create and maintain boundaries.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

in a conversation about male bonding, one woman was reported to have said, there is no such thing as male bonding, it's just an excuse to play sports and waste time. They never talk about personal things like relationships. When I heard this, as a male, but not a strong bonder, I thought yes that's right we bond about the teams we like and the games we play together. We enjoy the competition even if we don't win. We tend to keep emotions and relationships "personal". I do find it strange that a regular friend wouldn't know his friends fiance's name, but then again I not much of a male bonder. I play the wrong sports I guess.

AS to the original question my take is very different from the comments so far. I don't think it is a conflict between him and the other people, I don't think it is a conflict between him and his wife. Where I have seen this behavior in men it is almost always a conflict between what he is doing and what he is thinking about. The dinner is over, and his mind has moved on to something else, Wife is still in the glow of good food and good company and is hoping to keep it going. He is off on something else and feels that the date is over. Just something I have seen a lot. May or may not apply here.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

So, as far as relationships go, you're it kiddo. 

Looks like there is only one thing you can do about his behavior at these little events: adjust your attitude. Get it into your mind that when you go out to dinner with another couple you will be present and have fun while there. Once you get in the car for the trip home, you flip the switch and start thinking about something entirely different - that part of the evening is over. Just like on a Friday when you get off of work - it's TGIF! and you start thinking of the weekend coming up.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> I don't think it is a conflict between him and the other people, I don't think it is a conflict between him and his wife. Where I have seen this behavior in men it is almost always a conflict between what he is doing and what he is thinking about. The dinner is over, and his mind has moved on to something else, Wife is still in the glow of good food and good company and is hoping to keep it going. He is off on something else and feels that the date is over. Just something I have seen a lot. May or may not apply here.


I too have seen this at times, it was especially noticeable in Europe with Americans... dinner just seems to be something to check off the list, not embark on a social journey.

"Should we be going?" would lead to "we should be going..." would lead to "I'll be waiting for you in the car...".

Sometimes it would be an awful long wait.. I can only imagine the discussions on the way home.

Or silence.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It was 1990. I know because M2 was pregnant with our first child. Very very awkward situation for her - being an unmarried practicing catholic - dating someone her family hadn't even met who not only wasn't catholic, he wasn't even Christian. 

So we are going to meet some of my friends - what a disaster - she's already anxious - she was so awesome one on one - it just never occurred to me that this type situation would cause her distress. As I type this - I am feeling waves of sadness. Because in the parking lot she said: we won't stay long - and I yelled at her. Yep. I did. I yelled at my anxious, pregnant girlfriend who was already trying to 'ruin' the evening by curtailing it. She wasn't trying to ruin anything. Just anxious - and trying to manage it. 

So that's the ugly yin of the date. The yang is different. A couple days later my main friend at the event - Steve - called me and said this one girl at the bar told him she liked me and wanted to have sex with me. 

And my gut reaction to that was: what kind of sociopath wants to steal a pregnant woman's boyfriend...






kag123 said:


> My H does not go out alone with friends without me. I don't normally either- mostly just because all of our friends are married and we all socialize with each other as couples for the most part, so we are normally invited to things as a couple. Maybe 1-2x a year there will be a "girls night" with our friends that I will attend. H is invited to poker nights a few times a year, but he won't go to them since I am not invited. I always tell him he should go, but he says he doesn't want to. I don't really understand it but I can't make him go.
> 
> A large majority of our friends are from H's high school and college days, well before I entered his life. All of those guys grew up and got married so now all of the wives are friends with each other, and the wives mostly run the social circle we have. For example, I would get invitations from one of the other wives to get together for dinner or for a party, even if the invitation is to both of us. The husbands nevet call each other or initiate making plans together. I dont know why. They used to be just "his" friends but now that we are all married I consider us all to be mutual friends.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> It may be that Kag will reach a place where she is able to do this thing M2 taught me.
> 
> Playful banter about the topic in question with a bookend of - you know you are irresistible right?
> 
> The point of that is to emphasize that the thing in question doesn't need to be hidden or denied - because in total it isn't that big a deal....


I would LOVE to learn how to implement this in my marriage. I will fully admit I am not good at this. I've honestly never even seen this type of interaction IRL.

I used to be very firm and forceful in the beginning of our marriage when something upset me (sounds like your story of 1990 btw) and quickly learned that was SO damaging to my marriage. 

I grew up in a tough and firm household where if you did something that wasn't cool, you were called out on it immediately and with force. Not physical force, verbal force - no cussing involved - you just knew that thing you just did was NEVER going to happen again. I learned at a very early age to have a thick skin. If you didn't, you'd be in for a world of hurt. I was taught to own your bad behavior and at the same time, don't take any of the yelling or discipline personally. There was a lot of raising of voices in my house. 

So I learned that's how you deal with situations that are *not cool*, you put your foot down in no uncertain terms. My H grew up in the exact opposite atmosphere that I did, and in fact his mom is literally the most conflict adverse person I've ever met. God bless her, I love her to death! But it has been a challenge for me to learn how to tone it down, because the harder and firmer I was, the farther away my H retreats and shuts down. Plus, once I shut up and started trying to look at things from 30,000 ft instead of getting swept up in the moment, I saw I was a kind of a b*tch sometimes. 

I still am a lot of times without realizing it (as evidenced by turnera pointing out my comment about being invited to the wedding was rude). 




Magnesium said:


> Bad *behaviors* require consequences. We discipline our children for poor behavior...and not because they're not great people most of the time.
> 
> You teach people how to treat you. Boundaries are a good thing, especially good in a marriage or other very close relationship. There are kind, effective, loving ways to create and maintain boundaries.


I agree with you and I set firm boundaries with my two kids. I have trouble with enacting boundaries in my marriage. I don't want my marriage to seem like a parent-child relationship and I struggle with the "kind, effective and loving" part of it. 


Blondilocks said:


> So, as far as relationships go, you're it kiddo.
> 
> Looks like there is only one thing you can do about his behavior at these little events: adjust your attitude. Get it into your mind that when you go out to dinner with another couple you will be present and have fun while there. Once you get in the car for the trip home, you flip the switch and start thinking about something entirely different - that part of the evening is over. Just like on a Friday when you get off of work - it's TGIF! and you start thinking of the weekend coming up.


You're right - I am it. And I think you're solution is what I'll need to do, and it's what I have been trying to do, it's just that sometimes I get overwhelmingly disappointed that it has to be this way! 

We are going to an event at a local brewery sans kids this Friday with one of the couples we are friends with. A double date, but this event is more of a festival atmosphere where you're up walking around to different vendors and stuff, so not sitting at a table the whole time. That usually makes my H happier, so I'm hopeful this Friday will be better. 

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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

As God is my witness - I say thank you. I do. 

It doesn't matter WHY these situations are hard for her. They ARE hard for her. 

Often - beforehand - I say - thank you for doing this with me and then absent some type destructive behavior - repeat it afterwards. 

And it is a sincere thing - both before and after. 

The thing is - no one on this board would ever question WHY someone likes their food salty or spicy. Or not salty or not spicy. 

This is no different than that. But gosh - folks (me included) get super judgemental/unkind regarding this stuff. 

Except for the fact that - you can way more easily avoid salty/spicy food than these type social events. 






kag123 said:


> I would LOVE to learn how to implement this in my marriage. I will fully admit I am not good at this. I've honestly never even seen this type of interaction IRL.
> 
> I used to be very firm and forceful in the beginning of our marriage when something upset me (sounds like your story of 1990 btw) and quickly learned that was SO damaging to my marriage.
> 
> ...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> As God is my witness - I say thank you. I do.
> 
> It doesn't matter WHY these situations are hard for her. They ARE hard for her.
> 
> ...


I will try to learn your ways.  

Here's what pushes my buttons, I guess: Why not just be honest and up front about what is hard for you? 

If he ever said to me...

Hey, I get anxious in some social situations and may seem quiet because of it

- or -

I love seeing our friends, but small intimate get togethers make me uncomfortable because I feel like I don't know what to say

I'd be so sympathetic and kind about it. Really. I suffer from anxiety, for real - the diagnosed kind that I take medication for - and he's seen me in my lowest points and even taken care of me at my worst. Anxiety isn't something that he should be ashamed of with me. 

The gaslighting/PA stuff drives me nuts. "I don't know what you're talking about" and "I don't behave that way" etc. 

I guess it's that conflict adversity from how he was raised shining through? 

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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Similar family of origin experiences. 

That Germanic - super logical command and control approach was a TOTAL EPIC TRAIN WRECK with M2. 

I feel obligated to add here that:
- M2 is pragmatic like the best German ever born - she maintains everything she owns on a schedule as precise as that of a Swiss train.
- She is disciplined and super efficient in terms of resource management.
- Over the top fun in ANY one on one situation. Irish charisma gene squared. Hilarious, incredible, irresistable. I'd take a bullet for her and bleed out smiling. 

That said - taking a linear/logical approach to her jealous/controlling behavior - total fail. She feels threatened and goes into guerilla warfare mode. Gas lighting, sucker punching, Geneva convention - what's that? I'm really not joking here. 

That said - absent a combat footing - her value system is true Christian. So, asked nicely she is mostly a very good person. 






kag123 said:


> I would LOVE to learn how to implement this in my marriage. I will fully admit I am not good at this. I've honestly never even seen this type of interaction IRL.
> 
> I used to be very firm and forceful in the beginning of our marriage when something upset me (sounds like your story of 1990 btw) and quickly learned that was SO damaging to my marriage.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,
Lmao. If gas lighting were a summer Olympic event - she'd have the gold for the last 28 years. 

But - it's purely a self defense mechanism. She doesn't do it if she doesn't feel threatened. 

Thing is - M2 is a practical telepath. Watch the tv series: Lie to me

She is like the protagonist in the series - Dr. Lightman.

What that means is - suppressed anger/frustration - are a no go. Where as a genuinely calm, loving posture - or a loving / lightly amused approach - works great. 

But but - and this is every bit as important as tone. I am not asking her to change. I'm not. These are traits. Not changeable anyway. 

The talking - expresses awareness, acceptance, love and humor. 





kag123 said:


> I will try to learn your ways.
> 
> Here's what pushes my buttons, I guess: Why not just be honest and up front about what is hard for you?
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What was his family like? Something caused his lizard brain to freeze up in one-on-ones with other people, and it most likely came from his family situation. Maybe if you could get more in depth into that, you could see a way to mitigate that stress of his.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I am very much an introvert and I really dislike large gatherings although I did them fairly often when I was married. On the other hand, I totally enjoyed when my husband and I went to dinner with friends. A small setting, I was great in. A large setting, definitely not. It triggered my social anxiety -- which I didn't even know at the time I had -- in a very big way. All I knew then was that it made me ultra-*****y to my husband beforehand and I didn't like that. I always had a great time once I was there but I always disliked knowing I had to go. 

Since you know he's likely to react that way, maybe you can avoid going out to dinner -- at least sometimes -- and substitute some other activity as often as possible with your friends. Or if you do go out to dinner then resist the temptation to rehash the evening once you leave your friends. Just tell him "thanks" and give him a quick kiss on the cheek and move on.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

For what it's worth @kag123 w and I are total and complete opposites. We were immediately attracted to each other which is what got us together. That was 30+ years ago 

We were kids and didn't have relationship expectations (I didn't anyway). Since we were very different but very emotionally compatible, I think we accepted the differences.

I'm sure we both,over the years, would have liked one response or another from our SO regarding some reaction... but maybe we didn't expect it. So we probably learned to bite our tongues and choose our battles.

She knows I react a certain way, I'm sure, and I know she'll react a certain way. If we expect the other to change, our going in assumption is that we have to change our SO's perspective, which is very hard to do. We also know it only happens if you gradually listen and relate what you want in their terms. So I guess we assume it's on us to win our SO over, rather than expecting them to accommodate is.

In your case, you know the dynamic. There's nothing wrong with you enjoying yourself, and acknowledge going in that he won't have the same experience. In your place, I would be saying "Thanks for coming to the golf range today" with a big smile. "It was really fun to have you there. You did great!". And the thing is I'd really mean it and knowing her effort is appreciated probably makes it a good experience for her. I saw some play with her (ha ha my kids will know exactly what it was) Bd she was surprised and very happy I came.

These are trivial examples, but the fact is we don't really have fights much. If you expect H to not be comfortable, give home a big hug and embrace before, tell him how much you appreciate him joining you out, and acknowledge that you'll be bubbling over and want to talk after and ask him to indulge you. In that starting moment, try to get some agreement about what the expectations are. Not that you expect him to be bubbly too... state that... but you'd really appreciate it if he will indulge you after and be happy for you. Find out what he says. And in the end, don't expect anything unexpected from him but thank him if he changes. If not you can still be happy after sand he can be sullen and that's ok!

Good luck


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Kag,

I think what you may be facing is a difference in the types of conversations that stimulate and interest you. Your husband may be thinking that by simply attending these functions with you that he is enabling you to get the kind of conversation / interaction that appeal most to you. 

Let me try to explain the difference in these mindsets. My wife and I have very different approaches to what makes a good night out with friends. I like hanging with my buddies. We talk sports, politics, re-hash memories - just generally laugh together about shared items of community. My wife is much more focused in her visits with people on getting updated on the kids, personal news and such. I think of her valuing what I call the "emotional update."

When I return from boys' nights out, she can't understand how I can spend three hours with someone and not get the full skinny on where that person is standing in life and what their current emotional temperature is. If I don't bring home such "news" to share with her from the encounter, she truly thinks I'm wasting my time with these people. But, really, all I want to do is hang in the moment with my friends. I don't want to be their confessor, psychologist or counselor. 

Try to think about the tenor of your small group gatherings. What topics do you tend to talk about? If it's anything like when we go on doubledates in Tex land, it becomes me and my buddy sitting like bumps on a log while the wives exchange family updates and exchange personal "feelings" based information. For me, it becomes easier to just tune this out. It's not that I don't care. It's that my wife is much more attuned to sharing this type of information and more interested in receiving it in return. In short, I'm just along for the ride but giving my wife the conversational space to have the type of conversation that she wants to have.

Indeed, your husband may be more interested in driving the conversation to talking about the upcoming football season with his male friend from the other couple. However, we know that type of conversation is unfulfilling for our partners. In short, we attend these functions in which our wives tend to babble on about things that - yes - we do care about but are not inclined to discuss for two hour stretches. We do not turn the conversation to politics or baseball or our latest work challenge because we suspect that we will step on the toes of what the "good talkers" - our wives - want to talk about.

In short, we don't care as deeply about the topics that you are talking about but don't have a driving need to talk about something else. We let you drive the ship because you care more about these "emotional conversations" than we care about driving the course of discussion to something that you would see as mundane "hanging out" talk. I suspect that you're husband's behavior may be a learned behavior that it is easier to let the wives chat away and not to divert the conversation to something that interests him but is not as fulfilling / interesting to you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,

So the thing isn't the 'thing itself' at all. Instead it's his fear of acknowledging his true self - to you. 

There is no magic incantation for this. I will share what I do. 

As an example, if I know M2 is upset I do not ask her: are you upset?

Asking questions you know the answer to is - unhelpful.

I either ask: Did I do - something wrong? 
Or
If you want to talk: Let me know





kag123 said:


> I will try to learn your ways.
> 
> Here's what pushes my buttons, I guess: Why not just be honest and up front about what is hard for you?
> 
> ...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MarriedTex said:


> Kag,
> 
> I think what you may be facing is a difference in the types of conversations that stimulate and interest you. Your husband may be thinking that by simply attending these functions with you that he is enabling you to get the kind of conversation / interaction that appeal most to you.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that perspective. I hadn't thought of it this way. I did smile when you mentioned spending 3 hrs with someone and not knowing any personal details at the end of it, because I have definitely said the same stuff as your wife wrt to it being a waste of time LOL. 

What you said could be totally plausible. Usually we talk about lots of different things during the course of a double date. Some of it is personal, emotional stuff, which is usually just the wives talking to each other while the men carry their own conversation. Yea, I'm a typical female and I do want to get the life update from my friends like you mentioned. 

But a good deal of it is also non-emotional (but still maybe not interesting to my H, I don't know). We talk about work a lot as I have a similar position to a couple of our friends and I like to get their take on things sometimes - call it looking for other professional opinions? We also talk about TV shows and movies a lot, and about the trips we take all over the place. 

I do try to make sure to steer the conversation to topics that might interest the whole table and not just the women. It bugs me when all of the other husbands join in the convo but not mine. 

We spent almost the entire dinner that started this thread talking about our recent trip to Disney World, because the couple that we went to dinner with are big Disney nerds and wanted to hear all about it. I don't really consider that an emotional topic, but maybe H just wasn't interested! He probably didn't want to rehash our whole trip lol. 

One thing we talked about at dinner that night was my mom's recent breast cancer diagnosis. They were the first people (besides my H) that I shared the news with. I tend to keep those things to myself. It was only a couple of days after I learned the news and for some reason saying it out loud to someone else really hit me. I wasn't crying or outwardly showing sadness or anything, I did admit verbally to my friends that I was a bit scared and shaken by the news. Both of our friends were very supportive and kind, and my H just sat there and seemed withdrawn. It kind of hurt me. He didn't have to say anything, but a hand on my arm or eye contact with me or something to let me know he was at least listening and paying attention would've been nice. I quickly changed the subject after that to something lighter so we could move on to a happier note for the rest of our evening, but it still kind of stuck out to me that my H had zero reaction. Like...was he even listening?! I didn't say a word to him about it though so I don't really know what was or wasn't going through his head. I am sure he meant no harm and I was just being sensitive and emotional!

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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

It may be as simple as being in a bad habit for your husband.

Perhaps he got into the mode of "shutting down" when the conversation steers to the personal, emotional side in small group settings. Possibly he became so accustomed to this that he just learned to shut down completely in these situations and let you "handle" the evening.

I suspect you are dealing with "learned behavior" a decade in the making. I doubt if telling him beforehand & setting expectations of participation ahead of the event will actually change these patterns. And it does little good to berate him after the fact.

With this in mind, here's an idea. Set up a system where you can signal him that he's been quiet for too long. Set the expectation that you expect him to contribute to the conversation once every 20 minutes or so. The signal can be something as simple as pulling his left pinky when you reach out to touch his hand. This could be a gentle way to remind him to get out of "remote control" mode and become an active participant in the conversation. In short, you're re-training him during the event / interaction itself. Essentially, he's learned that it's perfectly viable to check out of active participation in these events. 

You lay down the law. Either he agrees to the signal system or he's not going. Hopefully, after two or three events, he'll get back into the habit of not "checking out" and become an active participant. Best of luck.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kag,

What does K2 like to talk about when it's just the two of you?




MarriedTex said:


> It may be as simple as being in a bad habit for your husband.
> 
> Perhaps he got into the mode of "shutting down" when the conversation steers to the personal, emotional side in small group settings. Possibly he became so accustomed to this that he just learned to shut down completely in these situations and let you "handle" the evening.
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MarriedTex said:


> It may be as simple as being in a bad habit for your husband.
> 
> Perhaps he got into the mode of "shutting down" when the conversation steers to the personal, emotional side in small group settings. Possibly he became so accustomed to this that he just learned to shut down completely in these situations and let you "handle" the evening.
> 
> ...


I like this.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> Kag,
> 
> What does K2 like to talk about when it's just the two of you?


I don't know that he "likes" to talk at any time, being perfectly honest.  

When it's just he and I, we will review our days at work. Not in a monotonous way, more like - Hey, you won't believe this thing that happened today. If he shared something with me in particular about a project or something else going on at work, I try to follow up with him on it a few days later to get more conversation out of him. 

We talk about family, the kids. Usually recanting something ridiculous that someone did. 

Joke with each other. We are always kidding around with each other. If he saw something funny online he saves it to show to me later when we are cooking dinner so we share a laugh over it. 

Talk about plans for the upcoming week/weekend. We both like to get out of the house and experience things so we usually have a full schedule for the family on the weekends, always looking for local events or new places to take the kids. 

And the usual housekeeping/life management items...bills, making appointments, don't forget to pick up X at the store, etc. 

All of our conversations are like 5-10 min blurbs here or there. There's never an extended period of time spent talking, really. We also have two kids, aged 7 and 8, who are usually close by and also talking. For as little as my husband talks - both my kids can fill up an entire hour telling us different stories without taking a pause to breathe lol. I love hearing what they have to say and they aren't rude about it or anything. It takes the focus off of H a bit. Our house is never quiet, so it's not like there's long voids of silence in the house at any time. 

I usually let him set the pace of conversation, unless we have something really important we need to hash out. Then I set a time and tell him, at X time we need to talk about Y and come to a solution on it. I will then make sure that there are no distractions during that time so we can talk uninterrupted.

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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

So you have a few options - might work a little smoother than the restaurant scenario.

Option 1: get someone to watch the kids and have your friends over - keep the dinner part short and then let the guys go:
- shoot hoops or 
- play video games or 
- watch a sports game or movie on tv

That option reduces the lengthy conversation component for him.

Option 2: run the 'it would be nice' play regarding the talking part of the date

With us that would look like this: 

Babe, thank you for doing this with me, I know these get togethers aren't your favorite thing. It would be nice if, when I periodically hand you the talking stick, if you'd pretend it was just the two of us at home - and you were telling me one of those funny little anecdotes about your day. 

But - there can be no edge to this request. It can't be made with any sort of threatening subtext. 

If he goes into gaslight mode - don't growl, don't bite. It just means he's ashamed of his social anxiety and covering up. 

So if he gets indignant and acts offended - just smile shrug and say: thanks for doing this

See he isn't just bad at this - he thinks that acknowledging this makes it worse. 

Could always mention that - you love watching him work the room at parties - wishing you could relax and do that too - instead of leaning quietly against a wall somewhere hoping nobody notices the low grade panic attack your having. 






kag123 said:


> I don't know that he "likes" to talk at any time, being perfectly honest.
> 
> When it's just he and I, we will review our days at work. Not in a monotonous way, more like - Hey, you won't believe this thing that happened today. If he shared something with me in particular about a project or something else going on at work, I try to follow up with him on it a few days later to get more conversation out of him.
> 
> ...


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

We went out again for another adults only event last night. I think it went well, all things considered!

This time it was a beer festival at a local brewery and we were meeting some friends there. H and I have been to the brewery before and I knew indoor seating was limited there, and there was a forecast for storms and I really didn't want to be stuck outside in the rain. H and I got there right when the festival opened to grab a table for our group indoors before the place filled up. Our group was all getting there at different times, so I knew H and I would be way earlier than everyone else and we were fine with that. It was about 1.5 hrs of just H and I before our friends got there. 

The fee for the festival included beer tickets for a certain number of drinks per admission. We each got our first beer while waiting for our friends to show up. I drank about half of mine, and suddenly started feeling very sick.  

Side note - I suffer from poorly controlled migraines, and don't really have a good handle on my triggers. It never seems consistent as to what causes them. It could have been the beer, or the heat, or the fact that we hadnt eaten yet before I drank the beer, I dont know. They've been really bad lately, coming on suddenly and frequently. I seem to go through "flares" of these where I'll get clusters of them for several weeks and then be without them for quite awhile. It is very frustrating. Anyway- when this happens, I have some rescue type medications I can take to try to stop it from turning into a full blown incapacitated migraine, but 1) they don't always work and 2) they take about an hour to work, if they are going to work at all. I quickly took the meds and prayed for relief. I also stopped drinking the beer and started drinking water. But I told H what was going on, and that I'd like to see if my meds will work before bailing (the fee to get in wasn't cheap, and we would've wasted our money). All this happened before our friends showed up. I wanted to try to stay if I could manage it, to at least see our friends for a few moments and explain what was happening if I ended up deciding to leave. 

I had stopped drinking for the rest of the evening at that point, which left us with a bunch of paid-for drink tickets that I wasn't going to use - so I told H to use them himself. He had 3 beers by the time our friends showed up. My meds did work thankfully and I was feeling much better by the time our friends showed up, but still not 100% so I was staying pretty quiet. 

To my surprise - H did great at leading the conversation and staying engaged. There was a whole period of 10 minutes where I didn't speak at all and got to play the quiet one, watching him talk instead. It was great. He was cheerful and friendly. 

Maybe it was my illness, or maybe the fact he had 3 beers in him before anyone showed up, I don't know. 

This time I was the one who was ready to leave earlier than he was, and I was the one who was quiet on the way home (because I didn't feel well). I took a lot more meds when we got home and immediately went to bed. I was sorry we couldn't have enjoyed his good mood more. 



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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Does he not usually drink?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

We drink socially all the time, not to get drunk. 3 beers isn't unusual for him and wouldn't be enough to even make him tipsy really. Maybe it relaxed him, I don't know. 

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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I get this picture in my head that when you guys are sitting at a table, face to face with people, he clams up, but when you're in a setting where you can - and do - get up and walk around, he's better?

If that's accurate, he has a lizard brain fear of confrontation, most likely. That face-to-face thing is psychologically chock full of intimidation for some people.


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