# Ultimatum day. Enough is enough...



## imjustlost

*[UPDATE] Ultimatum day. Enough is enough...*

Update on page 2

Story here:
Click Here for my story

tl;dr: wife of 7 years, mother of two boys is online flirting (like, thinking of him on our anniversary, posting "love" songs on his facebook wall) with committed gay man, makes me feel guilty for me demanding a no-contact. Says I'm insecure.

Tonight I'm going to tell her I want a NC with this guy, or we go our separate ways. We enter marriage counseling as well. She has already refused both of these, so I am expecting a refusal again...

I won't yell, won't argue and be calm.

Why do I feel guilty??? Is a NC warranted???

Does anyone have any tips or insight about what I'm about to do?

Thank you.


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## Almostrecovered

consult a lawyer ASAP, know your options and having papers shows that you are not making an empty threat (unfortunately most lawyers are off today)

aside from NC she must...

delete and block OM from facebook and emails
agree to be transparent, she must share all passwords, her phone etc (without telling her install a keylogger)
show true remorse, tell you everything and no trickle truth, own up to the affair 100%, understand that marital problems are 50/50 but the affair is all hers to atone for and do what you need to heal


also without telling her, expose OM to his long time companion


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## Chaparral

Did you print off the info posted on your other thread and have her read it?


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## morituri

Since she doesn't value what you say, why would you think that an ultimatum would be better received? File for divorce and have her served. Chances are that she won't be expecting it and it just might shock her to see that you mean business. Getting served will speak louder than any ultimatum.


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## Shaggy

Without you first talking to a lawyer she is just going to treat this as a false threat and will refuse to change.

your current plan is going to fail


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## Catrina

agree with shaggy, been there dont work well not for me anyway all i got was resentment off him and he was back and forth back and forth me-her.... her-me, didnt and wouldnt stop left again 29th but had told me day before xmas eve his loyalties were not with me, you cant make her she has to want to stop


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## imjustlost

Chapparal, I have not printed it. She will laugh. I took some points from it and will include those when I approach her. Believe me, divorce will move forward if she refuses.


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## chillymorn

Bad move get your ducks in a row before confronting!


your giving her the upper hand now she will get her ducks lined up before you.

listen to theses guys they know whats up.


if your serious about it get the papers drawn up first and then if she refuses give them to her.otherwise she will think just another spinless threat.


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## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> Chapparal, I have not printed it. She will laugh. I took some points from it and will include those when I approach her. Believe me, divorce will move forward if she refuses.


People in emotional affairs generally don't believe anything is wrong because they are in denial. Get the divorce papers going and give her a copy of the list. It won't take long for her to see she's throwing marriage away for a gay guy. I gaurantee she thinks she can reform him. What a fantasy! 

I'm personally one who believes in confronting the OM hard. Many here do not believe that but I think the marriage buster should get a good taste of medicine.. Besides that, he's done it before and he'll do it again if no one puts a stop to it.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Damn this is just cruel.

What makes this so horrible & cruel is the smoke and mirrors, the doubt that your being forced to deal with (gaslighting)... Tune everything out and focus only on the forest, ignore all the trees.

Your W is in love with another man.

Ignore everything else. It's all blah, blah, blah after that fact.

Your singular focus is completely removing him from her life at all cost.

Terminate their relationship with extreme prejudice.


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## imjustlost

Thanks everyone. Will initiating a divorce cost much?


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## Eli-Zor

You require a retainer , phone around and get quotes . Don't make this easy for your wife .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imjustlost

Weeks ago, we decided to split and she was the one who initiated contact the next afternoon saying she didn't want a divorce. So, she was the one who flinched first. Not sure if that matters also she apologized for saying those things to him but still refused to stop contact. She has a little remorse but not sure if she has enough to respect my boundaries. If she refuses I won't argue. I will hand her my ring and tell her I am done fighting for her, and I hope he is worth it.


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## Shaggy

imjustlost said:


> Weeks ago, we decided to split and she was the one who initiated contact the next afternoon saying she didn't want a divorce. So, she was the one who flinched first. Not sure if that matters also she apologized for saying those things to him but still refused to stop contact. She has a little remorse but not sure if she has enough to respect my boundaries. If she refuses I won't argue. I will hand her my ring and tell her I am done fighting for her, and I hope he is worth it.


She didn't really flinch. What she did was to suggest returning to the status quo where she was able to cake eat.

Other than saying she didn't want a divorce, what things has she done differently since then?


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## imjustlost

Shaggy said:


> She didn't really flinch. What she did was to suggest returning to the status quo where she was able to cake eat.
> 
> Other than saying she didn't want a divorce, what things has she done differently since then?


Being nice to me. Spending more time with me. Seeking me out for conversation. She wore her ring for a week long vacation over Christmas. 

Physically what has she done? Zero...


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## imjustlost

Thanks for the reply Shaggy. Cake eating makes sense...

and thanks Eli-Zor for the reply.


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## Initfortheduration

I concur with the others. Start divorce proceedings. It will protect you financially from her soaking you with new debt. I would also separate bank accounts and cancel any joint credit cards. Tell her you are OK with "open" part, just not the marriage part. Tell her to be sure and make him wear protection as he is probably a walking infestation of STDs. 

Do not file in expectation of her stopping. File because your self respect will not allow you to be cuckolded by her.


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## TDSC60

Do you personally know the gay man? If not, how do actually know he is gay - because she says so?????

There is not room for three people in a marriage, period.

Since she is still refusing to say goodbye to her "gay" guy, it is time to shake up the status quo. 

Protect yourself financially before you file. Get a bank account she cannot access. Cancel all joint credit cards. Get new ones in your name only.

She was ready to split then changed her mind? She may be moving money around as preparation for leaving. Watch out for that.


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## the guy

Heres my perspective on ultimatiums in general;
We can't control our spouse so why try, but we have boundries that are the walls we set up to protect us from more pain. When establishing boundries for your selves, it really is up to the other spouse to either respect them or be honest enought o tell us they can't or won't...either way its about protecting our selves from more pain.

I guess its so easy to get labeled controling but when you clearly give them a choice when it specificly aimed at protecting your self from more pain then its seems ......well not so much about her but protecting your self.

I'm thinking one can say " you need to choose him or me" or you can say " I will not tolorate this and need to move on if you continue" 

Granted its all semantics, but when its so tough to get around the "your trying to control me " thing...... the way you phrase things is so important.

I kind of see it as you are choosing for her when she clearly wants to "have her cake" or "you can do what you want but to keep me around you need to want only me" 

I hope this makes sense, cause there are so many ways to word the same thing......


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## Chaparral

the guy said:


> Heres my perspective on ultimatiums in general;
> We can't control our spouse so why try, but we have boundries that are the walls we set up to protect us from more pain. When establishing boundries for your selves, it really is up to the other spouse to either respect them or be honest enought o tell us they can't or won't...either way its about protecting our selves from more pain.
> 
> I guess its so easy to get labeled controling but when you clearly give them a choice when it specificly aimed at protecting your self from more pain then its seems ......well not so much about her but protecting your self.
> 
> I'm thinking one can say " you need to choose him or me" or you can say " I will not tolorate this and need to move on if you continue"
> 
> Granted its all semantics, but when its so tough to get around the "your trying to control me " thing...... the way you phrase things is so important.
> 
> I kind of see it as you are choosing for her when she clearly wants to "have her cake" or "you can do what you want but to keep me around you need to want only me"
> 
> I hope this makes sense, cause there are so many ways to word the same thing......


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Be sure when she starts telling you you are being controlling that she is free to do anything she wants but you have boundaries and you can do what you have to do also. The controlling thing almost always comes up.

Just to make a point, ask her if he has aids?

Does his partner know he does this? I wonder if its all a game with them since your friend says he has done this with other women ? If I were you I would talk to his partner. 

On a side note, I had girl friend (platonic) in college and all her closest friends weere gay guys. No one ever understood that. If a guy is really gay would that be like having a girl friend for a woman? NowI'mconfused.


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## imjustlost

[UPDATE]

I aproached her and asked her to stop talking to him. She considered it for about 30 minutes while we talked about calmly. She kept reassuring me nothing was going on. I told her I didnt care, those are my boundaries. She shouldnt have said those things, and told her that since she apologized so she knew it was wrong...I told her she could make it right and we could move on if she stopped talking to him. She kept making me feel guilty so I told her to stop making me feel guilty Im the one who suffered reading those things, I should not be made to feel guilty. I told her if he was such a close friend he would understand why she did this. She eventually said she couldnt do it. So I stood up, took off my ring dropped it on the bed and said, "I hope he is worth it". I left and am trying to find something to get my mind off things. Next move is go to work tomorrow and phone some attorneys. Feelsbadman.jpg

Thanks for the support everyone, it really means a lot.


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## Initfortheduration

Excellent. You did what you said you would. This breaks it down to two possible outcomes. She either stops the EA or you divorce her. These are clear black and white choices. But I will wager that she will call you saying OK. She would be lying. She will send the affair deeper underground so she can eat cake a while longer. Her plan will be a delaying tactic only. Move forward, protect yourself financially and cut her off.


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## imjustlost

Chapparal, sure enough she said I was controlling. I said no, Im giving you a choice. Im asking you to show me respect by quitting contact with this guy.

thanks theguy, I made it a point to not call it an ultimatem. The talk was really productive...well, up until the tentative rejection!


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## the guy

Ask her to leave. She may not , but it is a profound statement that tells her you are serious about moving on with out her. Especially if you really want her to leave.

Many folks thinks they won't leave, we have kids, it 1/2 her house, blah blah blah blah. The reality of it is you just asked her to leave...that in its self is empowering, and makes a huge statement. Even if she refuses it is a very huge statement in were your mind set is with regards to tolorating her unhealthy behavior. It says volumns in that you are for sure not going to sit by and tolorate it.


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## ing

This is awful and very similar to the position I found myself in. 

She is trying to cake eat. This may go on for some time even if you do issue Divorce papers. 

Do not allow it. Start dumping the consequences of her decision on her now. 

You need to make it very clear at every stage that this is her choice and why this is happening. She at the moment believes your love is unconditional and that you are a stable love that she can return to at any time. Like a Father or Brother.
Remind her EVERY TIME that some consequence is implemented that it is that she is losing you because she refuses to end the affair. Be very clear and calm. Repeat it often and see if it penetrates the FOG. 
She has fallen in Love with another man. The fog will be very thick


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## Affaircare

imjustlost~

Very nice touch dropping the ring on the bed and being informed that she's likely to say you're being controlling. It may not feel very good right now, but you did an excellent job. Now--be strong and of a good courage and let's carry this through. 

Right now she thinks something like this: "I can have my husband and the house and the kids and all his money and all the benefits...but have XXX on the side and have my emotional needs met by him!" and in her little fantasy there is no cost for having XXX on the side. The kids will be love him and be happy she found someone who makes her happy. The relatives will accept him. She gets the house, the kids, alimony and childsupport...so you just sort of disappear... But you just put a big ol' can of REALITY CHECK in her fantasy!!

Next step, I personally do not recommend jumping straight to divorce but rather I do STRONGLY suggest at least a legal separation to protect yourself and the children and your marital assets. I don't recommend divorce because I do want you to have the option to save your marriage if you so desire...and starting down the divorce road sort of eliminates that option. So do the attorney calls, and ask about legal separation. 

But during the night tonight and as you can during the next couple days, begin to pack some large luggage for her. Ideally, it would be perfect to have two nice, big suitcases full and say something along the lines of: "Since you've made the choice that XXX is more valuable to you than respecting me and our marriage vows, I am sad about that but I can accept it. I've taken the liberty of getting your things together, and I'm sure he'll be happy to help you find someplace to stay. THIS is our MARITAL HOME and I would be more than happy to have you live here in loving mutual respect...but I will NOT be disrespected in our MARITAL HOME while you carry on with another man.  *When you are ready to give me 100% of your affection and loyalty and honor the vows we made to one another, this MARITAL HOME will be right here. But I will not accept less than 100% from a life partner. *Good luck with your choice dear, I'm setting you free." Then escort her out the door, close the door and lock it behind her. 

It is going to be REALLY tough and she will try every trick in the book to make you out to be the bad guy, but STAY STRONG and let her experience the natural consequence of her choice. She will squeal because it does hurt, but allow her to learn that the cost of making that choice is painful. 

Again do this in love and dependability...not in revenge. If you do this bravely right now, you just may have a chance.


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## calif_hope

Have you exposed this, if not notify friend/family, tell them she wants an open marriage and that their has been 3 people in your marriage for far too long......get yourself a legal pad and start jotting down separation of assets and debt........propose a custody arrangement, tell her that you will most likely have to put the house up for sale and that you will be looking for a Realtor......just go on the offense, keep her reeling from each new "Reality", tell her your willing to pay for her ticket to go to the OM to live but your kids will never leave the State.............punch,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

How did she react? What was she like during this conversation?
Did she act like when she saw you were leaving?


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## ing

Affaircare said:


> imjustlost~
> 
> Very nice touch dropping the ring on the bed and being informed that she's likely to say you're being controlling. It may not feel very good right now, but you did an excellent job. Now--be strong and of a good courage and let's carry this through.
> 
> Right now she thinks something like this: "I can have my husband and the house and the kids and all his money and all the benefits...but have XXX on the side and have my emotional needs met by him!" and in her little fantasy there is no cost for having XXX on the side. The kids will be love him and be happy she found someone who makes her happy. The relatives will accept him. She gets the house, the kids, alimony and childsupport...so you just sort of disappear... But you just put a big ol' can of REALITY CHECK in her fantasy!!
> 
> Next step, I personally do not recommend jumping straight to divorce but rather I do STRONGLY suggest at least a legal separation to protect yourself and the children and your marital assets. I don't recommend divorce because I do want you to have the option to save your marriage if you so desire...and starting down the divorce road sort of eliminates that option. So do the attorney calls, and ask about legal separation.
> 
> But during the night tonight and as you can during the next couple days, begin to pack some large luggage for her. Ideally, it would be perfect to have two nice, big suitcases full and say something along the lines of: "Since you've made the choice that XXX is more valuable to you than respecting me and our marriage vows, I am sad about that but I can accept it. I've taken the liberty of getting your things together, and I'm sure he'll be happy to help you find someplace to stay. THIS is our MARITAL HOME and I would be more than happy to have you live here in loving mutual respect...but I will NOT be disrespected in our MARITAL HOME while you carry on with another man. *When you are ready to give me 100% of your affection and loyalty and honor the vows we made to one another, this MARITAL HOME will be right here. But I will not accept less than 100% from a life partner. *Good luck with your choice dear, I'm setting you free." Then escort her out the door, close the door and lock it behind her.
> 
> It is going to be REALLY tough and she will try every trick in the book to make you out to be the bad guy, but STAY STRONG and let her experience the natural consequence of her choice. She will squeal because it does hurt, but allow her to learn that the cost of making that choice is painful.
> 
> Again do this in love and dependability...not in revenge. If you do this bravely right now, you just may have a chance.


*What he said! *


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## Chaparral

calif_hope said:


> Have you exposed this, if not notify friend/family, tell them she wants an open marriage and that their has been 3 people in your marriage for far too long......get yourself a legal pad and start jotting down separation of assets and debt........propose a custody arrangement, tell her that you will most likely have to put the house up for sale and that you will be looking for a Realtor......just go on the offense, keep her reeling from each new "Reality", tell her your willing to pay for her ticket to go to the OM to live but your kids will never leave the State.............punch,
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree, plus she needs to get a job, car etc. Close joint bank accts. credit cards in the morning.


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## imjustlost

Great advice everyone, I really appreciate it.

I now have some plans should she try and work this out. I have more ultimatums now that she rejected my first...Thanks affaircare!

I will look into drafting some plans for splitting our assets and her getting a job and will send that to her tomorrow.

Chapparal, the talk was productive as we talked through the issues that lead to her wandering, and I could tell she wanted to talk this through but maybe felt she was trapped. She is very hard-headed and I feel she made this decision to test my boundaries, again.


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## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> Great advice everyone, I really appreciate it.
> 
> I now have some plans should she try and work this out. I have more ultimatums now that she rejected my first...Thanks affaircare!
> 
> I will look into drafting some plans for splitting our assets and her getting a job and will send that to her tomorrow.
> 
> Chapparal, the talk was productive as we talked through the issues that lead to her wandering, and I could tell she wanted to talk this through but maybe felt she was trapped. She is very hard-headed and I feel she made this decision to test my boundaries, again.


Praying for your family, stay strong ,its what your family needs.


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## imjustlost

chapparal said:


> Praying for your family, stay strong ,its what your family needs.


Thank you, brother.


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## ing

How old are your boys? The reason I ask is because in her mind the script goes something like this.

"I will leave him and let the dust settle a bit. In a couple of months I will introduce the OM to the boys and they will see how very much in love we are, this will be good for them because I have been in an abusive relationship with Hubby.

Very soon imjustlast will find somebody new and he will see how happy OM and I are. He will be very happy too because this is for the best.

In the end we will all four have dinner together and watch the kids play together. " We all laugh about how this came to be!


Stay strong for your boys. They are going to be looking to you because Mom is going to have her head so far up her ass she will think that you are causing them to cry because of your unreasonableness.

I feel for you man. I really do. I heard the words above. If you love her . Lovingly detach as fast as you can. I mean it. You can't fake it. Just do it.

I love you but I want you to be happy. Off you go!
i love you and understand your greater love.. Bye.
I love you and .. you get the idea..

Are you sleeping? Eating?


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## imjustlost

I now resent her deeply for this and for hiding it from me. The fact that she chose.him makes me want to accept no reconciliation, only agree to be polite for our children. I dont ever want to hurt this bad again. I need to find someone who will appreciate me. Life is too short...


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## imjustlost

@ing

My boys are 5 and 6, one on the autistic spectrum. They are my life. I am strong for them and they never see me down. It breaks my heart to know that I cannot give them the life that I wanted for them so badly. I am so angry at her that I do not want to reconcile.

I will tell her not to do anything rash, like break contact prematurely with the other guy, because I am moving forward.

I am sleeping better now, though for two months I slept only a few hours a night before my mind was consumed by thoughts of this guy and the things she said to him...

I lost about ten pounds during this ordeal, i'm starting to eat more regularly now that I faced this thing head on. Depression and panic attacks only lasted 3-4 weeks when I discovered the things she said to this guy. I'm lucky it was somewhat manageable.

Thanks for asking, and I truly appreciate the help you are giving me. Everyone, thank you from the bottom of my broken heart.


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## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> I now resent her deeply for this and for hiding it from me. The fact that she chose.him makes me want to accept no reconciliation, only agree to be polite for our children. I dont ever want to hurt this bad again. I need to find someone who will appreciate me. Life is too short...


What did she say led up to this. Like she said he was the only one there for her for the past six months. Is she just making up issues or had she talked to you about things bothering her?

Don't give up yet, you've got boys to think about yet. Your goal now should be to bust up the EA from both ends.

Why don't you call the other mans partner and then call the other man. If they broke up my family the last thing they would be doing is giggleing about it. But thats just me.

For example, if he offered to buy my kids shoes , I would have been on the phone immediately telling him where to get off. Of course he might like boys. But after I put the fear of God in him he wouldn't be effing with my family again.

This is just one step to putting your family back together.


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## ing

Yeah. Man. The aim at this point is to bust up the EA at this point. It has gone on a while and will take some strength from you. 

Lets try and kill the affair fast, most of them die on there own. 
We are just helping the process along by dumping reality on her. 

Shock and Awe now. She may be reeling now. She may go to the OM because you are "nasty and controlling". The reality is that since she is "in love" no matter what you do that is probably going to happen anyway.*

Detaching is good, and she can probably see it, however. Your hurting really badly now and everything she says stabs you in the heart and twists. Try to not listen to it. Please.



This may take months and months. and by then you will be recovering, but right now you need to be in control. Your doing well. Keep it up!
Shock and AWE


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## KanDo

Affaircare said:


> imjustlost~
> 
> Very nice touch dropping the ring on the bed and being informed that she's likely to say you're being controlling. It may not feel very good right now, but you did an excellent job. Now--be strong and of a good courage and let's carry this through.
> 
> Right now she thinks something like this: "I can have my husband and the house and the kids and all his money and all the benefits...but have XXX on the side and have my emotional needs met by him!" and in her little fantasy there is no cost for having XXX on the side. The kids will be love him and be happy she found someone who makes her happy. The relatives will accept him. She gets the house, the kids, alimony and childsupport...so you just sort of disappear... But you just put a big ol' can of REALITY CHECK in her fantasy!!
> 
> Next step, I personally do not recommend jumping straight to divorce but rather I do STRONGLY suggest at least a legal separation to protect yourself and the children and your marital assets. I don't recommend divorce because I do want you to have the option to save your marriage if you so desire...and starting down the divorce road sort of eliminates that option. So do the attorney calls, and ask about legal separation.
> 
> But during the night tonight and as you can during the next couple days, begin to pack some large luggage for her. Ideally, it would be perfect to have two nice, big suitcases full and say something along the lines of: "Since you've made the choice that XXX is more valuable to you than respecting me and our marriage vows, I am sad about that but I can accept it. I've taken the liberty of getting your things together, and I'm sure he'll be happy to help you find someplace to stay. THIS is our MARITAL HOME and I would be more than happy to have you live here in loving mutual respect...but I will NOT be disrespected in our MARITAL HOME while you carry on with another man. *When you are ready to give me 100% of your affection and loyalty and honor the vows we made to one another, this MARITAL HOME will be right here. But I will not accept less than 100% from a life partner. *Good luck with your choice dear, I'm setting you free." Then escort her out the door, close the door and lock it behind her.
> 
> It is going to be REALLY tough and she will try every trick in the book to make you out to be the bad guy, but STAY STRONG and let her experience the natural consequence of her choice. She will squeal because it does hurt, but allow her to learn that the cost of making that choice is painful.
> 
> Again do this in love and dependability...not in revenge. If you do this bravely right now, you just may have a chance.


*NOT what he said!*

In most jurisdictions, your spouse has a right to stay in the marital home and can not be forced out. You can ASK her to leave; but unless she is threatening or abusive, you can't force her out. And make sure you don't leave. Also, forget the idea of legal separation unless required in your state. Just file for divorce. You can stop the process at any time and I believe it makes a much more profound statement to the wayward spouse.
Sorry you are here. Must of us here have been in similar circumstances.

Good luck!


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## jnj express

Hey Lost---google, your state's Family Codes---Read them all from beginning to end---when you have finished going thru them, you will actually know what any D. atty. in your state knows-----they just have the experience of dealing with them. but you will know where you stand

See an atty, for the free advice---then you can go by the closest couthouse, and get a D. packet, and a Custody packet, should cost you about 20 to 30 bucks.

Go thru the whole packet, know what is there---You can actually do the D., yourself------saving thousands of dollars---

If nothing else, call your wife's bluff, let her see you working on the packet----I promise you, that just might wake her up, out of this nonsense she is in.


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## Chaparral

Divorce sends a shock wave, seperation she will like because it just gets you away for awhile she thinks. Divorce can be stopped at anytime,just le ther know when it would be final. 
time to do the 180:

This 180 list may help.
--------------------------


For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.


2 things to think about if you do this:

1) You have to do the 180 list NOT to be manipulative but because it's the right thing to do for you. You have to heal from this experience. You have to back off for your own sanity now. You have to have a plan and know that you will be a better person with or without them after all is said and done -- that you will live and learn and move on no matter what. So you have to be geniune when you follow these ideas, rather than faking it and being insincere because your only goal is to get them back. That's not what you want to do. Having a certain person as our spouse is not a need, it's a want. When I wrote down a list of all the definite needs in my life, I realized that almost everything beyond food, clothing and shelter is a want. 10 seconds after I looked at the list, I stopped making decisions based on emotion. That's when I realized that my wanting to have her was causing me to beg and plead for her to come back. That was driving her away more so I stopped doing it immediately. In doing my own version of the 180 list I could tell nearly an immediate change in her behavior.

2) Realize that when your spouse sees your new attitude they are very likely to be a little jealous or at least have some curiosity about what's going on in your life to cause this change. However, they very well may react the same way towards you for some time (especially if they read books or go to message boards also). REALIZE that this tactic can also work simultaneously on you if the spouse begins to likewise. Be aware of it and plan to have your own feelings of jealousy and curiosity in advance. However, like with #1 above, if you're doing the 180 list to better yourself and everyone involved, then it will matter less what they are doing.


Good luck


----------



## imjustlost

Thanks again, everyone. Great advice.

180 Shock and awe time now.

I will pick up a divorce packet and get to work on it. 

Thanks again for the support!


----------



## imjustlost

[UPDATE]

She sent me a message saying she will look into getting a job working nights so we can save up for a car for her and we can share watching the boys. 

She is sticking with her decision.

*EDIT She just sent me this:

_"I'm honestly quite stunned you are done...."_


----------



## Almostrecovered

fog talk, it's stunning she chose him


----------



## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> [UPDATE]
> 
> She sent me a message saying she will look into getting a job working nights so we can save up for a car for her and we can share watching the boys.
> 
> She is sticking with her decision.
> 
> *EDIT She just sent me this:
> 
> _"I'm honestly quite stunned you are done...."_


I would answer something like this:

And I'm broken hearted you fell in love with another man and picked him over your family.


----------



## Gabriel

chapparal said:


> I would answer something like this:
> 
> And I'm broken hearted you fell in love with another man and picked him over your family.


:iagree::iagree:

She thinks this is no big deal. She thinks she can have this "friend" despite her husband's wishes. SHE IS MAKING THIS CHOICE, NOT YOU!!!

The nerve of people. Makes me want to punch something. Seriously.


----------



## committedwife

imjustlost said:


> [UPDATE]
> 
> She sent me a message saying she will look into getting a job working nights so we can save up for a car for her and we can share watching the boys.
> 
> She is sticking with her decision.
> 
> *EDIT She just sent me this:
> 
> _"I'm honestly quite stunned you are done...."_


It's pretty unlikely that the OM is gay. Or even bisexual. Have you looked on his Facebook page to see who his friends are, or what he posted as his relationship status? 

Your wife is stunned because she liked having her cake and eating it, too. You've upset the apple cart and now she has to figure out a different game plan. 

I think you should file for divorce. That may shock her awake. If it doesn't, at least you've protected yourself.


----------



## Gabriel

Frankly, this level of deception and cruelty would be a deal breaker for me. I would file and never look back. He has pulled the hard line stance and she didn't budge. This is either because she thinks he'll cave in, or that she doesn't care. Neither of which are acceptable outcomes. Drop her like a pile of manure from a dump truck.


----------



## Chaparral

Maybe she means she's stunned she picked the Other man. Are you staying somewhere else.

Make sure she knows your sons will know why you are divorcing.

Hopefully she is bluffing.


----------



## vickyyy

ask her to share household expenses and separate your finances.

she is deep in fog.


----------



## Chaparral

Evidently, you are not the one that is done. She is the one that made her choice. Can't believe she will stick with it though.


----------



## Gabriel

chapparal said:


> Maybe she means she's stunned she picked the Other man. Are you staying somewhere else.
> 
> Make sure she knows your sons will know why you are divorcing.
> 
> Hopefully she is bluffing.


Eli, you can't really think this is what she might mean. It's pretty dang clear she is stunned her husband is dumping her over this situation. That he is ending the marriage because of her "friendship with a gay man". In her foggy head, that's all this is, she doesn't even see it as being inappropriate.

But she asked him for an open marriage in the original thread. I'm sorry, but if my wife asked me for that I would run, not walk, but run to an attorney's office.

The OP has also waffled a lot with what he has said to her. Clearly due to the extreme emotional anguish. This is why she thinks she can do this - her H will come around to her crazy ideas in good time. OP, leave this woman yesterday.


----------



## Gabriel

Sorry, not Eli - Chapparal


----------



## imjustlost

She responded with two paragraphs. Assuring me he is gay and there is nothing between them and that she is sorry for what she said. Also, How HE even suggested marriage counseling for us. How noble!!!

Do I think he is gay? I am 99% sure he is actually gay. The problem is her unhealthy infatuation with this guy. It's just...Not right: texting another guy on our anniversary while I am driving across town to pick up our anniversary dinner. Texting him that she "misses him" and is "thinking of him a lot." Just...No!

She is not admitting it to herself and that is the problem. I believe she is in love with this guy.

I'm going to respond to her that even if we did go to counseling, the marriage counselor would impose similar no-contact rule on this guy, and even demand that she hands over all passwords and have complete transparency...

Do you think that's a good response?


----------



## strugglinghusband

Shock and Awe, IMHO...let her know you are serious, you can still do that while in M/C and I/C.


----------



## imjustlost

Since maybe she does not understand, or wants to skirt the facts, I am considering sending her this:



> *If you answer "yes" to more than 2 or 3 of these questions, you are courting disaster in your marriage by being in an emotional affair.*
> 
> Are you experiencing repetitive hostility and conflict in your marriage? YES
> 
> Do you feel an emotional distance from your spouse? YES
> 
> Do you find it difficult to talk with your spouse? YES
> 
> Are you sharing more with your friend than you are with your spouse? YES
> 
> Do you think your friend understands you better than your spouse? YES
> 
> Are you sexually attracted to your friend? YES
> 
> Is the phrase, "We're just friends", your rationalization for your close friendship? YES
> 
> Does your spouse know about your friendship or is your friendship a secret? Secret until I found the facebook wall posts, yet they were talking for months.
> 
> Do you look forward to being with your friend more than being with your spouse? YES


----------



## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> [UPDATE]
> 
> She sent me a message saying she will look into getting a job working nights so we can save up for a car for her and we can share watching the boys.
> 
> She is sticking with her decision.
> 
> *EDIT She just sent me this:
> 
> _"I'm honestly quite stunned you are done...."_


If she works she pays half the bills , you don't allow her to save for the car , that's her problem once you seperate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

Don't even consider MC or IC until she has evidenced the affair has stopped and NC is in effect. Ignore her text messages unless it is related to your child. Run the 180 hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> She responded with two paragraphs. Assuring me he is gay and there is nothing between them and that she is sorry for what she said. Also, How HE even suggested marriage counseling for us. How noble!!!
> 
> Do I think he is gay? I am 99% sure he is actually gay. The problem is her unhealthy infatuation with this guy. It's just...Not right: texting another guy on our anniversary while I am driving across town to pick up our anniversary dinner. Texting him that she "misses him" and is "thinking of him a lot." Just...No!
> 
> She is not admitting it to herself and that is the problem. I believe she is in love with this guy.
> 
> I'm going to respond to her that even if we did go to counseling, the marriage counselor would impose similar no-contact rule on this guy, and even demand that she hands over all passwords and have complete transparency...
> 
> Do you think that's a good response?


Don't tell her what you think the MC will tell her since she might refuse to go if she knows before hand what he is going to tell her. If she thinks a counselor is going to go along with her so much the better.


----------



## imjustlost

Ok, she is saying it is not too far gone to salvage.



> I don't want this to end and I don't want you to leave, but you seem adamant so I don't know what to do.


----------



## Chaparral

Eli-Zor said:


> Don't even consider MC or IC until she has evidenced the affair has stopped and NC is in effect. Ignore her text messages unless it is related to your child. Run the 180 hard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand this as a general rule but in cases where the spouse doesn't believe they are in an affair I think a counselor could be the only thing that might work. The bad thing is how many people say there are so many bad counselors.

IJL needs to buy the book "His Needs Her Needs" readit and give it to his wife. This book is designed to heal broken couples marriages.


----------



## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> Since maybe she does not understand, or wants to skirt the facts, I am considering sending her this:


Did you send her this? 

Don't respond to her to quickly, let her stew awhile and think through your responses. Be emotionless,strong and don't appear to be anxious.


----------



## Eli-Zor

chapparal said:


> I understand this as a general rule but in cases where the spouse doesn't believe they are in an affair I think a counselor could be the only thing that might work. The bad thing is how many people say there are so many bad counselors.
> 
> IJL needs to buy the book "His Needs Her Needs" readit and give it to his wife. This book is designed to heal broken couples marriages.


I would rather the spend some cash on a once off call with Harley to get a plan in motion than go to MC
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustlost

I did send her the quiz, she says she doesn't need a quiz to know what her feelings are.


----------



## calif_hope

Text her you have one more quiz question and that you need to see a response, an answer, to the question in writing...

"Why are you chosing your friend over your husband and your marriage"


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

calif_hope said:


> Text her you have one more quiz question and that you need to see a response, an answer, to the question in writing...
> 
> "Why are you chosing your friend over your husband and your marriage"


Save yourself the frustration, she is deeeeeep in the fog. nothing that assigns the responsibilty for her own choices will be accepted. Logic and reality are a waste of time. It will be a circular argument, each point made will be countered quickly with blameshifting/H being controlling/minimizing. It will all be fueled by anger for taking away her drug (AP) and desperation to satisfy craving for addiction.

Only chance here is action, words are just mental mastrabation.


----------



## Entropy3000

Yes she is deep into an affair.

The discussion on gay, not gay, bisexual is somewhat of a side show. He is still a man and this is still an affair. Her choosing him over you is very strange. Her previous activities and comments from your other thread lead one to believe there is sexual romance hiding in here somewhere. If not with this guy then someone else. Perhaps his partner is bisexual. Who knows? 

If possible have a background check run on this guy and his partner to see if either are sex offenders. This is probably a good general idea in any affair case frankly.

But again gay or not you are doing the right thing in making a stand. There is an affair.



> She google searches for:
> "romantic things to do in NYC" (One result was Empire State Building which she told me she wanted to go and do.) Coincidence???
> "songs about secret love"
> "MENSTRAL CYCLE CALENDAR!!!" She has no explanation for this but eventually made something up that made no sense.


This original quote ... One way or another she was looking into romance / sexual intercourse. Maybe she was hoping she was ovulating. Maybe she wants a baby from her "gay" friend. 

Has she met this guy? Sorry if I missed it. He is a friend on her facebook. How did they hook up? On the internet? Gaming? Are there pictures being shared? Are there pictures of your boys on facebook? Has she sent him pictures of the boys?

I am unclear, his friend says he is definitely gay? What friend is that? How do you know the friend of this guy?

You know beyond the affair stuff, this sounds very dangerous for her at all to meeting up with these men in NYC no less.


----------



## imjustlost

She agreed to go to marriage counseling. What now?


----------



## Entropy3000

imjustlost said:


> She agreed to go to marriage counseling. What now?


I personally would demand that she go NC with this guy prior to and during the MC as a pre-condition for you accepting the MC.

To truly work on a marriage one has to go through withdrawal from the affair first. 

Depending on the MC they can prevent you from taking the firm stand that you need to have. You can be totally undermined. So the selection of the MC is key. 

Ultimately however you are not asking for MC per se. You want her to stop her affair and work on your marriage. Going to MC should not be allowed to enable the affair. She is trying to buy time and muddy the waters. MC should not be in place of her going NC.

Her romantic trip needs to be cancelled as well.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

imjustlost said:


> She agreed to go to marriage counseling. What now?


IMO... Your wasting your time and money. As long as the affair and contact w/ OM is ongoing, her accepting MC is likely nothing more than a stall tactic and another forum for gaslighting. At least for awhile until MC gets to the root of it (if they do)... figure while your seeing the MC once a week.. the remainder of the week she is "exploring" her feelings for OM and "soul searching"... 

Again, IMO.... MC is only effective when both spouses are 100% commited to making it work and well after AP is out of the picture COMPLETELY.


----------



## Almostrecovered

have you exposed to to OMM yet?


(new acronym? Other Man's Man)


----------



## morituri

MC while in contact with the OM? Bad idea. Many unfaithful spouses use the MC not as a way to reconnect and reconcile with their betrayed spouses but as a platform to launch in to a list of things wrong with the betrayed spouse in order to say that they tried MC but that the marriage was too damaged. So can the MC until she proves beyond the shadow of doubt that NC is in place and that she is willing to bend over backwards to prove it.


----------



## imjustlost

Almostrecovered said:


> have you exposed to to OMM yet?
> 
> 
> (new acronym? Other Man's Man)


I have not. I considered it.


----------



## Almostrecovered

imjustlost said:


> I have not. I considered it.


do it

your goal is to destroy the affair, informing his longtime companion of what he's been doing with someone else can put the brakes on the affair real fast from his end


----------



## imjustlost

OK, so I am not accepting marriage counseling until she cuts off contact. 

The more she waffles, the more it just pisses me off...

Please tell me there is a caring human under all that fog...


----------



## imjustlost

Almostrecovered said:


> do it
> 
> your goal is to destroy the affair, informing his longtime companion of what he's been doing with someone else can put the brakes on the affair real fast from his end


The problem with that is, the guy never really went beyond flirting (as far as I know). 
The issue is my wife's infatuation with him. I could ask him to let me know if he knows anything about it, or if OM has told him anything about it or her.


----------



## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> The problem with that is, the guy never really went beyond flirting (as far as I know).
> The issue is my wife's infatuation with him. I could ask him to let me know if he knows anything about it, or if OM has told him anything about it or her.


Ask him if he knows their online affair has broken up her family and you are holding him responsible.


----------



## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> The problem with that is, the guy never really went beyond flirting (as far as I know).
> The issue is my wife's infatuation with him. I could ask him to let me know if he knows anything about it, or if OM has told him anything about it or her.



Expose him , he knows what he is doing and is not innocent.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

Eli-Zor said:


> Expose him , he knows what he is doing and is not innocent.


Exactly. He knows exactly what he is doing. So does she. Thing is, you don't. But... there is an absolute that is the case 110% of the time in these situations... It is an iceburg. 

She did not trip and hit her head then suddenly fall head over heels, leave her marriage "in love" with some guy... Lot's of conversations, lots of intimacy and a process... and process he participated in got her here....

Ignore the trees, focus on the forest.

IMO..... "Bull in a china shop" type exposure is warranted. NO pu$$yfooting, this is WRONG! This must stop.


----------



## imjustlost

Contacting OMM now. Thanks guys for the support.

I also have not received a response so far, from my question:

"You want to go to counseling, that's great. But, what about OM?"

...crickets...

*EDIT: message sent asking if he would be open to talking with me about OM's behavior with my wife.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Some SO are blind to affairs, don't let the OMM try imply there is nothing going on, warn him that his relationship is in trouble as well.


----------



## Eli-Zor

> message sent asking if he would be open to talking with me about OM's behavior with my wife.



Forget that , phone him.

If you want to make the OM squirm read the exposure posts in the newbie thread

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read-3.html


----------



## imjustlost

I really would rather have it in writing, to be honest.

Also do not have his number and no idea how to get it.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

imjustlost said:


> Contacting OMM now.
> 
> *EDIT: message sent asking if he would be open to talking with me about OM's behavior with my wife.





Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> NO pu$$yfooting, this is WRONG! This must stop.


Who the f-ck knows what going on in his relationship or with the OMM... He likely will spin right into insta-denial and wont want to hear what you have to say... dont forget his relationship could be in big trouble and likely ending... Who do you think he will call the minute he gets your text? What do you think his lover will say? 

"open to talking"?? F-ck that, he WILL hear you and you WILL fight for your marriage.


----------



## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> I really would rather have it in writing, to be honest.
> 
> Also do not have his number and no idea how to get it.


Its your choice of words that should change. I was pointing you at the newbie thread for you to read the templates for exposure. If you are going to do this in writing your use of words such as affair, adultery are critical to convey the message.

Change the words friend to OMM's name and the context so it addresses OMM as the significant partner



> Dear friend of XXX (Full name)
> 
> It grieves me to write this letter but I believe you should know the kind of person he/she really is. XXX is having an affair with my wife/husband , (name of your spouse) YYYY, from ZZZ (month or year) until ZZZ (month or year) . I believe that you should know this, so you can protect your relationship. My wife/husband and I have X small children and this affair has almost wrecked our marriage.
> 
> I would be happy to provide the evidence should you require it .
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you
> (Betrayed Spouse’s name)


If you don't get a satisfactory result you find all his friends and expose to them


----------



## bryanp

If the OM is married or has a girlfriend then you need to expose this to them immediately. Good luck.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

bryanp said:


> If the *OM* is married or *has a BOYfriend* then you need to expose this to them immediately. Good luck.


Fixed ur post.


----------



## ing

Do not agree to MC until she ends the affair. she is simply trying to buy time to continue the affair and keep you on the hook.
It may be that the OM and the OMM are in an open relationship and you are not playing the game. In this case exposure does nothing.

They probably think that given time you will come around to their way of thinking. Your wife is stuck in the middle. She KNOWS this is wrong. Her mind is in meltdown. 


She refuses to give up this friendship to save her marriage. This makes no sense at all, but she has fallen in love with this man and that is the reason she won't give it up. 

Hold firm. 
Do not be mean.
Before every new consequence state clearly why this is happening. 

She is deep in the FOG. My stbxw took 10 months of destroying her life to finally come out of it.


----------



## imjustlost

Ing thank you for sharing. 

She just told me she thought about it but will only reduce contact. 

Shock and awe back in full effect.


****. man.


----------



## Entropy3000

imjustlost said:


> Ing thank you for sharing.
> 
> She just told me she thought about it but will only *reduce contact.
> *
> Shock and awe back in full effect.
> 
> 
> ****. man.


How would one measure this? And of course to go through withdrawal takes total NC. So any contact even reduced is still carrying on the affair.


----------



## calif_hope

Yup, you have to treat this as an addition, a reformed drunk or addict cannot have a taste - any taste of the addiction is a relapse and not healthy / has to be 100% no contact / non-negotiable, do deals or agreements - no contact!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jnj express

When you get the D packet home, make sure it is in a place where she can see it----She will then confront you, as to what you are doing----At this point, you MUST be completely calm, and cool---whether you are serious, or trying to bluff her, out of her EA, you have to be realistic, and calm

You tell her D., is on the table as long as there is another man, that is getting more attention from her than her H.


----------



## imjustlost

Great suggestions everyone. Already looked into a divorce packet and have been hardline 180. 

Califhope: Addiction is exactly it!!!

Some fog is lifting though. She tells me he may be "scared off" because she told.him what was going on...What a best friend right??? I told her to explain it to me because it didn't make sense. Best friend is scared off??? He doesn't care about you...Fog.is lifting...


----------



## calif_hope

Don't wait for the divorce package......get your phone book, mark or highlight the names/ads of divorce lawyers, dog ear the pages and maybe a bookmark. A piece of note paper with lawyer phone numbers for good measure.......actually call a few, a good number will give you a free hour for a Q/A......

Let her see you with the phone book, let her see you are looking for legal advice, leave the phone book and note book assessable.


----------



## ing

> Some fog is lifting though. She tells me he may be "scared off" because she told.him what was going on...What a best friend right??? I told her to explain it to me because it didn't make sense. Best friend is scared off??? He doesn't care about you...Fog.is lifting...


Be prepared for flip flop between reality and full fog mode. You will be able to see in her eyes when this is happening. 
She will probably look scared. 
At the moment she simply can't believe this is happening. 
Her world is falling apart and she is now in a position where she has to choose who to hurt. You or OM. 

When in Full fog mode be careful to remain calm. Repeat the garbage she says back to her s-l-o-w-l-y, or even a little chuckle is good.

This in the end was the most effective defence I had against the alternate reality that my stbxw was inhabiting. 

DO NOT rush into thinking this will break fast

Remember to keep reminding her WHY this is happening. She has to accept it in her own mind and that is hard.


----------



## warlock07

imjustlost said:


> Great suggestions everyone. Already looked into a divorce packet and have been hardline 180.
> 
> Califhope: Addiction is exactly it!!!
> 
> Some fog is lifting though. She tells me he may be "scared off" because she told.him what was going on...What a best friend right??? I told her to explain it to me because it didn't make sense. Best friend is scared off??? He doesn't care about you...Fog.is lifting...


Or she can twist into "You freaked out on her relationship with a friend and he backed off " and she will resent you for it


----------



## imjustlost

Great advice again. Thank you.

warlock: That was her original reaction. we are just friends i will hate you for ruining friendship blah blah. i told her to get real, she admitted attraction to this guy its not a friend ship its an EA. and i said you will get over it.


----------



## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> Great advice again. Thank you.
> 
> warlock: That was her original reaction. we are just friends i will hate you for ruining friendship blah blah. i told her to get real, she admitted attraction to this guy its not a friend ship its an EA. and i said you will get over it.


An extremely strong EA if not more. Trip to New York, romantic sights,her period check can only mean one thing. Friend my a$$.

No affection, no intimacy, has a crush on a "gay" man, posting love songs to him, he wants to be "freaked", wants open marriage, tells him she misses him and he makes her heart flutter, then lies and lies and lies.

And this is only what you know. Did he send her pictures?

You have got to be strongbecause she is trying to rug sweep this big time. 

Under no circumstances let her take boys to New York. If you file for D she can't take them out of state, tell her that. Let her know you no longer trust anything she does. She thinks she's playing you for a fool.

Every state I know of has a sex offender list, have you looked him and his partner up? Google his name.

Has she sent him pictures?


----------



## imjustlost

chapparal said:


> An extremely strong EA if not more. Trip to New York, romantic sights,her period check can only mean one thing. Friend my a$$.
> 
> No affection, no intimacy, has a crush on a "gay" man, posting love songs to him, he wants to be "freaked", wants open marriage, tells him she misses him and he makes her heart flutter, then lies and lies and lies.
> 
> And this is only what you know. Did he send her pictures?
> 
> You have got to be strongbecause she is trying to rug sweep this big time.
> 
> Under no circumstances let her take boys to New York. If you file for D she can't take them out of state, tell her that. Let her know you no longer trust anything she does. She thinks she's playing you for a fool.
> 
> Every state I know of has a sex offender list, have you looked him and his partner up? Google his name.
> 
> Has she sent him pictures?


I have no idea if she sent him pictures, I don't think she has and I have seen no mention of that between them.

She did not plan to take the boys to New York, I am watching them while she goes which I stupidly agreed to before I knew ANYTHING. That is not going to fly now though.

Not on sex offender list that I could find, though she told me he has been arrested though I cannot find a record of it...Name is too common I think.


----------



## Chaparral

She said she missed his beautiful face, were they skypeing?


----------



## imjustlost

Don't think they were skyping, she doesn't have skype installed. 
I would notice that. 

But, who knows for sure...


----------



## Chaparral

Hows the 180 going over?


----------



## imjustlost

180 is going strong! I can tell she is upset with me pulling away. 
I have slept in my kids bedrooms the past two nights and have had no contact with her outside of messaging about this.


----------



## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> 180 is going strong! I can tell she is upset with me pulling away.
> I have slept in my kids bedrooms the past two nights and have had no contact with her outside of messaging about this.


Good job!


----------



## Eli-Zor

It looks like a deep EA , umfortunatly an EA of this duration can be difficult to break first time round. You have two parallel tasks , take the OM out and continue to let your wife feel the consequences of her affair. There is no R discussion until your are certain the affair is killed and has not gone underground.

Have you managed to expose the OM to his partner?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustlost

Thanks Chapparal and everyone else, it really means a lot!

Eli-Zor: I have not heard anything. I presume he does not care, as most of this stuff he is doing on public facebook walls where his partner can see.


----------



## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> Thanks Chapparal and everyone else, it really means a lot!
> 
> Eli-Zor: I have not heard anything. I presume he does not care, as most of this stuff he is doing on public facebook walls where his partner can see.


Have you posted on his wall or messaged him. Of course he will probably block you.


----------



## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> Thanks Chapparal and everyone else, it really means a lot!
> 
> Eli-Zor: I have not heard anything. I presume he does not care, as most of this stuff he is doing on public facebook walls where his partner can see.


Facebook is a fantastic place for exposure , a few well placed messages to his friends will soon set the exposure wheel running.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustlost

She offered to "friend" me on her game account so I can see what she's doing.

Not good enough!

Keep trying honey!


----------



## imjustlost

PROGRESS!

She says she doesn't want to lose me.
She is saying she won't text him or message him but questioning de-friending him...


ALMOST THERE!!!


----------



## Eli-Zor

Before she defriends him , she sends him a no contact letter , you sit next to her when she does this . The template is in the newbie thread . Once this is done and she has defriended him , defriend any one else they have as common friends and block his name.

You should then monitor Facebook to see if she unblocks him. I suggest you get a keylogger as well . Your wife wanted an open marriage and would not let him go , this suggest a tough cold turkey period for her. Arrange for her phone to be blocked both ways.

Your making progess , slowly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

you'd make an excellent car saleman


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

I hate to burst your bubble brother, but it will help you in the big picture if you understand this is just her trying to negotiate and manage you. In the grand scheme, You've really gotten no where. 

It's damage control. These are breadcrumbs... Fool's gold. She needs to back you down. She has no intention of letting this guy go. Beware, she is going to go further underground. 

This can't be fixed or repaired, it has to be blasted to the ground and rebuilt. He must be gone. That will require radical action.


----------



## calif_hope

Yea, I wouldn't trust her words right now either. She is caving to the pressure of the now, knowing life will draw attention away from the issue and then she can reestablish connection with the OM, she will just go underground and be more careful.

I just can't understand that some people can't quite understand or refuse to understand that once you cross a line with a friend you can't do a 'reset' or put the 'geni back into the bottle'........the new paradigm it the new reality.

This woman became obsessed / addicted to her gay friend - this forever changes the situation, she won't accept this reality - 'he is just a friend' no longer applies. She needs help for her addiction.

This situation is like TashaB thread - she couldn't understand why she couldn't have her best friend of 20 years in her life and wanted her husband to forgive her friend for having sex with his wife ...... she says she understands now from the reaction of her husband when she asked and the behavior of her 'former best friend'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustlost

I gave her no-contact letter to send, and told her to send me proof of her sending it to him.

Also told her to de-friend him and block him.


----------



## imjustlost

Almostrecovered said:


> you'd make an excellent car saleman


Me? Why do you say that?


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

imjustlost said:


> I gave her no-contact letter to send, and told her to send me proof of her sending it to him.
> 
> De-friend him and block him.


Guess you think she wont tell him to ignore that when she sends the 2nd email after she opens a new email account, second facebook account, and a disposable phone? If she hasn't already, she will... I promise.


----------



## imjustlost

She's terrible at hiding things and I have a few safeguards, but who knows...

If that's the case, and I find out...No discussion, she is getting directly served with divorce papers with no chance for reconciliation.


----------



## Eli-Zor

What we are saying is your taking a few to many shortcuts . You should have had your wife send the NC in your presence before she had an opportunity to talk to the OM , you have and had the opportunity to take the OM out by exposing to his friends . 

Experience says a woman in an EA with the duration your wife has been in is very likely to take this underground. You could have short circuited any doubt by following the suggestions we gave you , not picked components of it.

I strongly suggest you out the OM and expose your wife's affair to her parents , if she goes underground and gaslights you at least her folks will know the truth .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

imjustlost said:


> Me? Why do you say that?



because she keeps coming back with offers and you stay stone faced until you get what you want


----------



## imjustlost

Almostrecovered said:


> because she keeps coming back with offers and you stay stone faced until you get what you want


I like it!


----------



## imjustlost

Back to square one. 
She resisted the no-contact letter. 
Now she's talking divorce again...
So, she originally agreed to cut off contact, but not to the no contact letter because it made her feel like she was cheating when she said she did not cheat.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Not doing this



> This can't be fixed or repaired, it has to be blasted to the ground and rebuilt. He must be gone. That will require radical action.


and this



> Facebook is a fantastic place for exposure , a few well placed messages to his friends will soon set the exposure wheel running.


or 



> What we are saying is your taking a few to many shortcuts . You should have had your wife send the NC in your presence before she had an opportunity to talk to the OM , you have and had the opportunity to take the OM out by exposing to his friends


results in



> Back to square one.





> She resisted the no-contact letter.


and finally 



> divorce


Take the OM out, your not playing games this is your marriage, you will lose it. Call her parents and her siblings and expose to them. 

Once the OM is gone there is no one for her to run to and reality will set in.


----------



## Eli-Zor

We are supporting you, where you are now we have been and seen from countless affairs.


----------



## imjustlost

Thank you for saying that Eli-Zor, and everyone else helping me out, it means more than you know.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

imjustlost said:


> She's terrible at hiding things


Was.

Get this through your head, You don't know _this_ women. She is not the person you married. You have no idea what she is capable of. She is an addict. _This women_ is a highly skilled liar and manipulator. Don't believe anything she says and forget everything you think you know. 

Your not in Kansas anymore.

We really do want to help you, but you have to get your head out of your ass and listen.

I mean that respectfully brother, we want to help.


----------



## Powerbane

Listen to these good folks!!

Gay-Schmay - baloney!!!!!

Exposure - to all family and friends. Exposure to the OM partner and family and friends. Do it!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gabriel

The point of him being gay is moot. If he is gay, he may not want her sexually/romantically, but he clearly is enjoying the emotional connection.

The issue is that his wife is not fully committed to this marriage when she is this into another PERSON, gay or straight, man or woman. Much of her emotional energy is being spent elsewhere, not on her husband. 

That's the problem. Remember

1) she asked him for an open marriage, TWICE
2) she refused to drop this gay-man friend of hers when her H asked
3) given H's waffling in the past, she doesn't believe he will hold his ground

So even if this guy is gay as the day is long, WHO CARES! This woman is NOT into the marriage AT ALL.


----------



## Beowulf

Gabriel said:


> The point of him being gay is moot. If he is gay, he may not want her sexually/romantically, but he clearly is enjoying the emotional connection.
> 
> The issue is that his wife is not fully committed to this marriage when she is this into another PERSON, gay or straight, man or woman. Much of her emotional energy is being spent elsewhere, not on her husband.
> 
> That's the problem. Remember
> 
> 1) she asked him for an open marriage, TWICE
> 2) she refused to drop this gay-man friend of hers when her H asked
> 3) given H's waffling in the past, she doesn't believe he will hold his ground
> 
> So even if this guy is gay as the day is long, WHO CARES! This woman is NOT into the marriage AT ALL.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## calif_hope

I don't think your back to square 1, I don't think you ever left square 1........going back and forth is part of the process....hold your 180, stand your ground......I read her talking divorce again is an attempt to get you to back off.....

Call some lawyers, make some appointments with those who give free inital consultations - don't engage her in relationship conversations...let her come to you.....

Put together a divorce folder, names/phone numbers, brochures, stuff from the internet.....let her see you are doing your prep work.....


----------



## Beowulf

imjustlost said:


> Back to square one.
> She resisted the no-contact letter.
> Now she's talking divorce again...
> So, she originally agreed to cut off contact, but not to the no contact letter because it made her feel like she was cheating when she said she did not cheat.


She is threatening divorce to back you down. Her flip flopping shows she really doesn't want a divorce. She wants things to go back to the way they were so she can cake eat. Take the threat of divorce away from her by seriously pursuing it yourself. Let her see you looking up legal advice. Leave a lawyer's business card on your dresser so she can "accidentally" see it. Start separating your assets and finances in preparation for a divorce. And if she doesn't react to that then go ahead and file. Divorce takes a while to go through anyway so you have time to drop it if she ever gets her head out of the fog. But she won't get her head out of the fog if your head is up your backside. You have time to save your marriage but you're wasting it negotiating with her!


----------



## Gabriel

Beowulf said:


> She is threatening divorce to back you down. Her flip flopping shows she really doesn't want a divorce. She wants things to go back to the way they were so she can cake eat. Take the threat of divorce away from her by seriously pursuing it yourself. Let her see you looking up legal advice. Leave a lawyer's business card on your dresser so she can "accidentally" see it. Start separating your assets and finances in preparation for a divorce. And if she doesn't react to that then go ahead and file. Divorce takes a while to go through anyway so you have time to drop it if she ever gets her head out of the fog. But she won't get her head out of the fog if your head is up your backside. You have time to save your marriage but you're wasting it negotiating with her!


THIS!

Stop pu**y footing around.


----------



## Chaparral

Keep to the 180 and either get the divorce packet or talk to a lawyer. While it looked good for a bit she was just trying to make it look like she was being a good girl.

I don't believe the whole gay thing anyway. He's at least bisexual. She wasn't going to New York looking for romantic spots and making sure she wasn't going to be on her period for nothing.

Tell her parents EVERYTHING and family. Out them on facebook etc. This will pi$$ her off but its the only thing that works. When the fantasy is known to everyone it looks ridiculus.

Be sure and let her and everyone else he has done this before.


----------



## ing

I am thinking that exposure will not have the effect that it normally does in most affairs.

She asked to be in an open relationship.
The OM is "gay" or Bisexual. I suspect that he is already in and open relationship and that she has been sold the line that it is quite normal. 
Exposing does nothing here, you need to get out of this drama. You may be essential to their relationship and the attention you are giving it is actually fuelling it. 

Let me run a scenario,,
You not allowing the open relationship is making you look controlling and possibly threatening. She is probably seeing your 180 as aggressive and out of proportion to her "crime'

She probably says things like " but he is MY friend, I'm allowed friends! You are CONTROLLING ME. ABUSING ME!!!"

I suspect she is constantly asking for "space to work things out"

Does she have new single female friends who suddenly have become important?

She feels totally and utterly entitled to this . You are her barrier to happiness.

Are her eyes shut down to you like someone has closed the shutters?

I know PIT comes across as a complete and utter bastard but he is often right.. [sorry PIT] 
Dig.

If this is the case it is hard to fight. You fight it by not fighting it, but my Lovingly detaching.


----------



## Chaparral

Contact OM and tell him he is interferring with your family and causing extreme emotional distress to you and your children. Divorce talks are on going. Keep copies of your request. Also ask for an immediate response as you will follow up with alienation of affection or intentional infliction of emotional distress lawsuit. Ask lawyer to word it or write it.

While, most people don't file this kind of lawsuit because of time and expense it could very well get him to back off.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

ing said:


> I know PIT comes across as a complete and utter bastard but he is often right.. [sorry PIT]
> Dig.


I'm really not a bastard.  SOrta suprised I come off "complete and utter"... uggggggggg. lol. I'm actually a really nice guy.  There is a method to my madness, and I genuinely care about people and don't want to see them hurt.


----------



## ing

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I'm really not a bastard.  SOrta suprised I come off "complete and utter"... uggggggggg. lol. I'm actually a really nice guy.  There is a method to my madness, and I genuinely care about people and don't want to see them hurt.


Sorry PIT. I know there is method to your madness and I do know really that you are not a complete and utter.. It is a joke line from the Young Ones. A 1980's TV show from the UK.

When you are deep in BS fog it is all that gets through. 
You got through to me


----------



## imjustlost

Ing, She is receptive to me, pushing to work things out while not accepting the final no contact because she is too ashamed and embarrassed. She is not convinced this is an emotional relationship. I stopped talking to her after she had me going in circles then she messaged and texted eight times in an hour. I came home late and she was scrambling to know where I was. We are playing chicken but she is hard headed.


----------



## imjustlost

Will pick up divorce packet on Friday when I have off work. Told her I was doing this. Will email her mother and OM.

Any wording suggestions?


----------



## calif_hope

Imjustlost:

To your mother: Your daughter is having an emotional affiar with an OM, refuses to see the pain and and suffering it (the affair) and the lies is causing me and the harm to our relationship. She is addicted to this man, refuses to see the truth.......she has brought an other man into our marriage, right now our marriage has 3 people involved and I refuse to continue in being in a marriage were I am so disrispected. This has to end. and since she will not, I will.

To the OM:

Option 1: You win, she yours, send money as she will need a place to live or send tickets and make room at your house. 

Option 2: My wife tells me you are a gay man in a long term relationship.....I cannot believe that you cannot reflect back on her communications with you and not come to the conclusiion that your relationship with her has crossed a line. Are you getting some sort of sick satisfaction in having a hetrosexal married woman as your pet or your puppet...are you that type of human. 

I find my self in a marriage with three people, my wife lies and tries to manuplate me to distract me from the real truth that you are party to an Emotional Affair with my wife, she is addicted to the relationship, addicted to the idea of you....clearely you have to see it, you can't be blind to it, what reward do you get, for what purpose or satisfaction do you continue this. 

I cannot live in a marriage with you in it, my wife needs to heal from her addition and to do so you must cease all communication with her now and forever..no contact. I ask this of you.

If you are a good man you will do as I ask, If you are satisfying something sick in your heart and soul you will not. I ask you to not take her calls, to not respond to her texts, tweets, FB and other form of communication, and do so for the rest of our lives. She will heal, and you will do just fine.

If you do not, my wife will find herself without her marriage, a marriage to a man who truly loves her but cannot thrive under the present circumstances.

--------------------------sorry, had an expresso and rambled on.....


----------



## TRy

imjustlost said:


> Ing, She is receptive to me, pushing to work things out while not accepting the final no contact because she is too ashamed and embarrassed.


You should never post such bull again. Stop making excuses for her. Her refusing to break off contact with the OM has nothing to do with her being "too ashamed and embarrassed". It has everything to do with her having the hots for him. He is not gay but bi and she has strong emotional feelings for him.

If your read "His needs, her needs", you will discover that although women like sex, sex is not a top need for them like it is for men. Non-sexual affection and conversation are the top must have needs for women. This OM is meeting those needs for her instead of you. Her relationship with the OM is thus cheating on you and destroying her relationship with you.

Read the first chapter of the book with her, and she may finally understand why her relationship with the OM is wrong.


----------



## imjustlost

More great suggestions thanks.

I messaged OM that I am divorcing her because of their emotional affair.

Her mother is up next!


----------



## imjustlost

Great wording calif_hope!
I may just send that one too. What the **** do I care.


Edit: Sent option 2. You should write for a living calif_hope!


----------



## akira1

Again, affairs, even an EA, thrive on secrecy and fantasy. Once exposed, it crumbles under a foundation of lies.

For maximum effectiveness, exposed quickly and widely. Be firm, but not cruel.

Your wife may try to gaslight you and rewrite history, and maybe pull the "But he's gay!" card.
Be firm and as fair you can be.


----------



## imjustlost

OK, OM, OMM and Mother have been informed of her behavior.


----------



## calif_hope

I hope you get the outcome you want!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> OK, OM, OMM and Mother have been informed of her behavior.



You must take this further , the OM does not give a hoot about your marriage. If you have access to your wife's Facebook page expose his adultery to his friends. Place as much pressure as you can on him to make his affair very uncomfortable. And call it an affair not an EA it dilutes the message.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## maxter

You are getting superb advice on here. Stay focused, firm, and stick to your plan. I'm glad to see you did the exposure thing early on. That is one of my regrets in my W's affair. I never exposed (for many reasons) and W kept gaslighting me, going deeper underground, and betrayed me for 3 1/2years. 

I finally had had enough and filed for D in August, custody of my two girls in Sept, got my own place and completely furnished it, and seperated all finances. I was on my way out of her life. It was not until she faced that reality, the true consequences of what she had done that she snapped out of her fog. It was ugly and painful for both of us, but worth it because we are now working on reconciliation.

Keep the pressure on her. This will get worse before it gets better when she finally starts to crack and come out of her fog. You are fighting for your marriage, your family and your life right now. I hope one day your wife (and mine) see how far we were willing to go to save everything.


----------



## imjustlost

Exposing to his friends will not do anything, he flirts with all the girls and a lot of this flirting with her was done out in the open on each other's facebook walls.


----------



## imjustlost

@maxter, thank you brother.

I hope it works out for you.


----------



## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> Exposing to his friends will not do anything, he flirts with all the girls and a lot of this flirting with her was done out in the open on each other's facebook walls.


With a comment like this you may as well give up your marriage, I assure you a wide exposure will get tongues wagging and he will not like it . Please we have done this many times , your a novice and looking for reasons not to take hard steps to let people know he has crossed the line. Re-read the exposure posts in the newbie thread.


Let him get upset , why would you care next time he will think twice about seducing a married woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

imjustlost said:


> Exposing to his friends will not do anything, he flirts with all the girls and a lot of this flirting with her was done out in the open on each other's facebook walls.


Wrong thinking!

Exposing it will likely do something - you just don't know for sure what, but it certainly will bring to light that her particular actions with him are ending your marriage!


----------



## Almostrecovered

consider that his friends will see that his flagrant flirting has led to the end of a marriage


----------



## imjustlost

Thanks everyone, I am listening. Point taken, preparing outing post for his friends. 

He has me blocked so I will have to get creative.

EDIT: calif_hope GTFIH I need another great post! Please!!!


----------



## Eli-Zor

Use the template from the exposure post on page three of the newbie thread . Feedback from elsewhere is the words therein protected a betrayed spouse when they were threated by a lawyer. As long as you state the truth no one will want to take legal action.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> Thanks everyone, I am listening. Point taken, preparing outing post for his friends.
> 
> He has me blocked so I will have to get creative.
> 
> EDIT: calif_hope GTFIH I need another great post! Please!!!


Use your wife's id to access the friends list and copy the web links to their pages to a word document. Use your facebook account to send the messages.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustlost

Eli-Zor said:


> Use your wife's id to access the friends list and copy the web links to their pages to a word document. Use your facebook account to send the messages.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is how I messaged him, by copying the ID and pasting it into the URL. However, I wanted to make a public post on his wall. 

I need to figure out who his real life friends are if I have to message them.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Don't use the wall , he can take it down quickly and the impact will be lost . You must message his friends directly that way some will tell him some will not and it will bug him not knowing how extensive the exposure is
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustlost

Great point. 

Doing this.

Looking for templates now...


----------



## calif_hope

Imjustlost, noticing his friends is a good idea but only if you have access to his friends list.....if you have access via your wife's account great, you might consider creating a bogus FB account and try to friend him....just don't let the effort consume and/or distract you and take up too much time. You have other things to do, spend time writing out a separation agreement, who gets what, who gets the house, custody visitation, $$ contribution, support, splitting of assets and debt.......show your work to your wife for her input....your lawyer will ask for the details.

At minimum start gathering your financial documents and statements, deeds, leases, make copies, two sets, give a set to your wife, tell her her lawyer will need them.......

Three good rules for you right now:

1. Shock and Awe!!!!
2. Trust but Verify!!!!
3. Establish, control, and maintain the momentum!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustlost

Should I tell her I contacted her friends, OM, her mother?

Tell her they have a right to know?


----------



## calif_hope

Yes, control the message, don't let others! Tell her that you had to counter her lies, the alternative reality that she (wife) is sharing to others...that they all have the right and respect to know the truth that their is, at your wife's invitation, 3 people in your marriage and you cannot continue to live and thrive in the sick situation your she is had created and is maintaining.

She is going to be MAD, keep calm and focused......tell her she gave you no choice as she continued hurting you and the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> Should I tell her I contacted her friends, OM, her mother?
> 
> Tell her they have a right to know?


No, you need to know who contacts her about it. Let her come to you when they contact her, especically OM. She will be PO'd. Stay extremely calm.


----------



## Gabriel

Agree 100% with Chap here. Don't tell her. Just do it and let things come to you.


----------



## imjustlost

Ok, sent her this:

I contacted OM, OMM, close friend and Mom
I think they have aright to know what is going on. 
Since you guys were just joking around, I'm sure they will understand.

Edit: **** it. Too late.


----------



## calif_hope

I still hold on telling her, not telling her serves no purpose, no value. Without question to the point if certainty her mom and the OM will contact her. The the OMSO contacting your WW will hopefully be him telling her to back off. For all the other folks who were marriage, who cares if they contact her. The importance is those who contact him, providing support or asking for clarification or additional information.

Their are circumstances that not telling has tactical value, this is not one of them.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

calif_hope said:


> I still hold on telling her, not telling her serves no purpose, no value. Without question to the point if certainty her mom and the OM will contact her. The the OMSO contacting your WW will hopefully be him telling her to back off. For all the other folks who were marriage, who cares if they contact her. The importance is those who contact him, providing support or asking for clarification or additional information.
> 
> Their are circumstances that not telling has tactical value, this is not one of them.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it would have been good to know how long it took OM to contact wife although you don't know when he would recieve his message. She , no doubt, would have contacted IMJ as soon as she heard from OM to unloadon him.

OM should have been contacted long before this.

When did OM block you from his facebook?


----------



## Eli-Zor

Why why why , do not tell your wife you are exposing it allows her to prepare her story. Did you actualy read the newbie thread ? It gives you robust guidance as to what to do .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustlost

12 text messages sent between WW and OM in the past hour...

Maybe I should text him


----------



## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> 12 text messages sent between WW and OM in the past hour...
> 
> Maybe I should text him


What would you say?


----------



## imjustlost

"Is this pizza hut?"


----------



## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> "Is this pizza hut?"


She's probably telling what kind of nut you are and look what she has to put up with.


----------



## Chaparral

Can you get the texts?


----------



## imjustlost

Exposing now is more shock and awe I think, now she has to think about what to say to four people all at once. Her story will sound ridiculous regardless, considering the situation. The sheer fact the she refuses to drop a friend or "upset him" by not telling him is ludicrous...No way to possibly explain that...


----------



## imjustlost

chapparal said:


> Can you get the texts?


On Verizon, not without getting into her phone...


----------



## calif_hope

Yes, text him......."What part of No Contact didn't you understand?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

Well, she's going to go into full "You're controlling and it's all your fault" mode, so be prepared.


----------



## Chaparral

calif_hope said:


> Yes, text him......."What part of No Contact didn't you understand?"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Does she already know you are keeping an eye on her texts? I f you text him she will know.


----------



## Chaparral

Unsure in Seattle said:


> Well, she's going to go into full "You're controlling and it's all your fault" mode, so be prepared.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Tell her your fighting for your family. She can do what she wants to do but so can you.


----------



## Gabriel

And #1 above all else....don't act too quickly. It has burned you before. Think, wait, wait some more, think some more, before responding to things and doing stuff.


----------



## Chaparral

:iagree:


Gabriel said:


> And #1 above all else....don't act too quickly. It has burned you before. Think, wait, wait some more, think some more, before responding to things and doing stuff.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

She needs to think you are willing to let her go. You can't get this done in a matter of hours. When you don't respond she has to think about the downside of breaking up her family and for what?


Originally Posted by marduk 
I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.

A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.

Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed? Me. Here’s what I learned:

1. Let her go. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.

2. Set boundaries, and then stick to them. I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.

3. Be ok with losing her. Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.

4. Do my own thing. I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…

5. Be a father to our children. Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.

6. Get some buddies. Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.

7. Fight different. Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.

8. Act from a place of strength. I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.

9. Be decisive. Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.

10. Know what I want from life. This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.

11. Do more macho stuff. Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a man and not one of her girlfriends.

So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.

Thanks for everything! 

__________________


----------



## Eli-Zor

calif_hope said:


> Yes, text him......."What part of No Contact didn't you understand?"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please , do not contact the OM . Having a text war gets you no where. Carry on with the rest of the exposure and do not say anything to your wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

I f you HAVE to text someone text your wife and ask her if she has found a job yet? lol


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## imjustlost

She just responded to my exposure message with:

_"Wow...Was just writing up a no contact email for OM..." _

(riiiiight....)

_"Crying all the way home ready to do anything you asked of me."_

Now she is probably trying to do damage control...

Next move???

Wait???


----------



## Chaparral

Does she know you know when she texts? Do not respond every time she texts!


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## Gabriel

imjustlost said:


> She just responded to my exposure message with:
> 
> _"Wow...Was just writing up a no contact email for OM..." _
> 
> (riiiiight....)
> 
> _"Crying all the way home ready to do anything you asked of me."_
> 
> Now she is probably trying to do damage control...
> 
> Next move???
> 
> Wait???



Yes, by God, wait. Does "crying all the way home ready to do anything you asked of me..." mean that she WAS ready to do this and now you have screwed up by meddling? Or is she still wanting to do this?

By the way, you will be able to tell if she was really crying. Look into her eyes when she gets back. Where is she coming home from? His place?

When she comes home, be open to hearing what she has to say, tell her you are ready to listen. But don't say anything yourself - just sit back and let her talk.


----------



## imjustlost

chapparal said:


> Does she know you know when she texts? Do not respond every time she texts!


No, I ignored three texts from her yesterday as I stayed late at work. She was scrambling to know where I was...

I told her I turn my ringer off at work.


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## imjustlost

Gabriel said:


> Yes, by God, wait. Does "crying all the way home ready to do anything you asked of me..." mean that she WAS ready to do this and now you have screwed up by meddling? Or is she still wanting to do this?
> 
> By the way, you will be able to tell if she was really crying. Look into her eyes when she gets back. Where is she coming home from? His place?
> 
> When she comes home, be open to hearing what she has to say, tell her you are ready to listen. But don't say anything yourself - just sit back and let her talk.


She was at the gym, she walked our boys to the gym in the front of our subdivision.

All I know is that I do NOT know what she is thinking.


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## Almostrecovered

well that's manipulative...seriously doubt that she was ready to do that


----------



## Gabriel

Let us know what she says once you give her the opportunity to speak. Ask her what she is thinking and then sit back and listen. 

Maybe she'll ask you for an open marriage again...


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## Gabriel

Sorry, that was cold. I wish you only the best outcome. Keep us posted. Good luck!


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## WhereAmI

imjustlost said:


> No, I ignored three texts from her yesterday as I stayed late at work. She was scrambling to know where I was...
> 
> I told her I turn my ringer off at work.


No need to lie. "I was busy with something else." will do. It's a good thing for her to realize you can choose other things over communication with her.

If she really wants to write that NC letter, I suggest you hand her pen and paper. That way it can be discussed and edited without her "accidently" sending a whoa is me NC through email.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imjustlost

WhereAmI said:


> No need to lie. "I was busy with something else." will do. It's a good thing for her to realize you can choose other things over communication with her.
> 
> If she really wants to write that NC letter, I suggest you hand her pen and paper. That way it can be discussed and edited without her "accidently" sending a whoa is me NC through email.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a great point. After I did it, I realized I should have just told her the truth that I didn't want to talk to her. I should really start telling the truth if I want to be a better man, regardless if I am with her.

As for my wife, she is still messaging me, saying "how could you do this" and stuck on the "we are just friends" in a kind of somber mood. I think she realizes the **** has hit the fan and she will have to explain this bizarre behavior.

EDIT: oh, and she is back to saying that I am insecure.

Thinking of telling her that I want to sit down with her when I get home so we can write the no-contact letter. Yes or no?


----------



## Almostrecovered

imjustlost said:


> Thinking of telling her that I want to sit down with her when I get home so we can write the no-contact letter. Yes or no?


no, she should come to you at this point


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## Gabriel

Don't push her. You already tried this and it didn't work. Just let her talk and don't dictate the conversation. You will learn a lot more this way.


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## maxter

WhereAmI said:


> If she really wants to write that NC letter, I suggest you hand her pen and paper. That way it can be discussed and edited without her "accidently" sending a whoa is me NC through email.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excellant advice! The NC letter should be hand written, reviewed/approved by you and you mail it with return receipt required so OM has to sign for it and you know he got it. That way she can't lie to you about sending an email. Also if he initiates contact after getting the letter you can file harrassment charges as he has been warned off.

Hand writing a letter will force her to really think about what she has done and is doing to you as she struggles to put her thoughts down on paper. It also helps to cement the idea of NC by the very nature of transferring thoughts to actions (writing). It may help her to connect the dots and possibly start to understand just how much she has betrayed you and your family.

Sample letter:
[Other persons name]

I have behaved in a selfish and inconsiderate way toward my husband by engaging in an inappropriate relationship with you. I now realize that marital reconciliation with my husband is the right thing to do. I deeply care about him and want things to work out so we can maintain our family and realize all of our dreams together.

Therefore, I have decided to break off all contact with you. This decision, this promise to never contact you in any way, direct or indirect, is for life. I ask that you respect my decision and never attempt to make contact with me again. I will refuse any such attempts and notify my husband immediately.

I am trying to do the right thing and get my family and my life back on track again. The emotional damage that I have caused my husband may never be fully repaired but breaking off all contact with you is the first step towards regaining my integrity and rebuilding trust in my marriage.

[Wayward spouses name]


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## imjustlost

Oh ****. She has deleted her facebook?!?!

Unless she blocked everyone but him?



> The page you requested was not found.
> You may have clicked an expired link or mistyped the address. Some web addresses are case sensitive.
> Return home
> Go back to the previous page


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## Unsure in Seattle

imjustlost said:


> She just responded to my exposure message with:
> 
> _"Wow...Was just writing up a no contact email for OM..." _
> 
> (riiiiight....)
> 
> _"Crying all the way home ready to do anything you asked of me."_
> 
> Now she is probably trying to do damage control...
> 
> Next move???
> 
> Wait???


Well, you know this is somewhat BS, as she's been texting him all day.

When you go to have a talk, I would point out that you know they 've been in contact today (not HOW you know) and it's her actions that will be the proof you require. You can't heal from this if she keeps in contact with him- as simple as that. 

If she brings up the fact that she deleted her FB page, point out that it was never about her having Facebook or talking with other people- it was about spending an inappropriate amount of time and emotional energy to one particular person there.

Don't be a ****, but don't be on the defensive, either. Deflect that sort of thing. Her actions have brought her to this point and these consequences.

Speaking of consequences, be prepared to follow thru on any you lay down.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

No, my xW did that (facebook deactivate) several times. 

She likely deactivated it. She can reactivate it at anytime. She knows your digging there and is probably concerned about your exposing it further to her online world. That is the fantasy universe she exists in (FB, texts, online).

She's protecting it, and him from you.


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## imjustlost

Ok, her account is deactivated or deleted. I'm not blocked because an old message her name is greyed out and there's a generic picture.

Blocked, I would not see anything.


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## imjustlost

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> No, my xW did that (facebook deactivate) several times.
> 
> She likely deactivated it. She can reactivate it at anytime. She knows your digging there and is probably concerned about your exposing it further to her online world. That is the fantasy universe she exists in (FB, texts, online).
> 
> She's protecting it, and him from you.



Too bad I scrolled all the way down her wall last night on the spy account to the beginning of their relationship and saved off an html file for this very reason! JUST in case.


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## Shaggy

No doubt the messages with him earlier were about how she would be going dark on him to appease you.

The question is did they include setting an alternate way to stay in contact or a promise to resume when your little fit blows over?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calif_hope

When she gives you the;

How could you do this................ I am fighting for my famiy, and I will not give you an applogy for that

He is just a friend.........You know that is BS, you only have a limited number of times that you can say that line of crap to me, that lie has its limites....once to many times said will destroy our family and our marriage will be over. And honey, you better get a grip on reality because we are very close to the cup being full and not being able to handle anymore lies as and BS.

You are insecure..........No I am very secure in the fact that I can do very well in mylife without you in it......I will only accept a marriage with two people in it, if that is not what y ou want, we go our seperate ways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imjustlost

@calif_hope: great lines, again.

Seriously, I go back and re-read the message sitting in my sent box that you wrote for OM and marvel at it's beauty.


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## Eli-Zor

And her phone? they can still text and message. Have a plan as to what to do with that line of communication. Do not let on what information you have. 

If and its a big If she comes round today and writes the NC assume she will go underground and open another line of communication to the OM. The text massages may have been them creating a plan. 

edited: lol


> The text messages may have been them creating a plan.




I don't recall if you loaded a keylogger, if not get one and load it pronto.


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## Gabriel

Mmmm.. text massages.


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## Eli-Zor

> the question is did they include setting an alternate way to stay in contact or a promise to resume when your little fit blows over?


Often waywards do exactly this, a way around this is to mention you will be verifying no contact and this include a polygraph test.


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## imjustlost

Got home from work she was playing up the anger with the exposure. I stayed calm.
Went downstairs and fired up my phone and faceniff (facebook sniffer for android) to check if any facebook accounts are logged in on wifi...Sure enough. A name I didn't recognize. She went underground. Created anew account with a new name and one friend......I screenshotted the message. Was sent four hours ago. She didn't want to cut off communication with him and was not asking that of him. She said sorry about this drama from the bottom of her heart...(wtf about me.) And that shr still wanted to see him in April.
feelsbadman.jpg


I lost it instatntly...

I yelled upstairs to write Jason and tell him you guys can still talk because im divorcing you. I walked upstairs to my closet abd started getting ready she followed, NOW I had her attention. She asked desperately four times what now? What did I do??? I looked.at her stone faced and said...It's what you didn't do. She blew up got angry and threw a washcloth at me then pushed me. I told her to hit me. I was calm. She ran off slamming doors...Igrabbed my shoes.told her she just made her decison and I walked out.

sorry for the spelling errors. on my phone.


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## imjustlost

I am so ****ing hurt i want nothing to do with her. I want to tell her to leave me alone and that she has already lost me. I know she doesn't love me anymore and I feel any futur reconc. is just an aim for her to use me...I ****ing hurt so bad right now.


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## calif_hope

I hope that her reaction is the start of the fog lifting.

It's either the final act of your marriage or the start of the recovery.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Don't throw in the towel yet. Stick to the 180. If you recall, I told you this was going to take a while. you can see how deep she is in the fog. She doesn't yet realize what she's risking. 

If you haven't made an appointment with an attorney yet make one. In the mean time download info from your state and start going over it. May be a good idea to let her see the papers.

Have you gotten separate bank accts yet? If its worse than you thought she may clean out bank accts. Cancel credit cards. 

#1 be strong for your kids. 

You should text her and tell her if she's going to see him in April she had better get a job unless he is paying her way.

Of course if it were me I would beat her to NewYork.

Good luck and prayers.


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## Chaparral

calif_hope said:


> I hope that her reaction is the start of the fog lifting.
> 
> It's either the final act of your marriage or the start of the recovery.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The fact that she told him she couldn't wait to see him in April sounds like the fog is as thick as ever. Every thing she has said has been a lie. Although i would bet she doesn't even realize it.


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## Chaparral

Let her mom know she's going to see him in April. But, don't reveal your sources.


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## Almostrecovered

so there's your answer, she was indeed going to write a NC letter but it was going to a complete lie and she was taking this all underground


so sad and too many times we have seen this here


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## snap

Yes, file for divorce ASAP. You don't have any other options in your circumstances. No amount of empty talking will derail her affair.


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## imjustlost

Getting divorce packet today.


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## calif_hope

Start talking to her this weekend about splitting assets and debts.....ask her what her plans are for a place to live.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Good on ya for staying calm! Be deadly serious and calm. 

Get on with the divorce pack. She is still so fogged up and wants to cake eat. 

Stay strong man!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

So sorry to hear about her going underground with the affair. But not surprising either. My W did this several times. She had secret email accounts, secret cell phone, secret PO Boxes. It was a nightmare for several years as she gaslighted me terribly.

Don't let that happen to you. Stick with Shock & Awe. Be firm and calm. Never let her push your buttons or allow yourself to loose it. I know it's very hard to do as the emotions well up inside you. Staying completely calm really blows their mind because it signals you are comfortable with your own decision to D and move on. I know it's very painful emotionally and physically for you right now. Follow the 180 completely as this will help you to cope.

The only thing that appears to have finally worked for me was making my W face harsh reality when I filed for D, full custody, and was ready to leave her, take our girls and move into my own place. It shook her to the core which is what she needed. Wishing you the best outcome possible going forward.


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## Chaparral

IF she says she wants to stay married insist on immediate access to all passwords to all accounts,phones etc. Not immediate. no deal. Put keylogger on all computers. And, let her know she is being monitored. When she says you are being controlling remind her of her options without a family.

I still think she will see the light but the odds have gone down. Offer to help her pack.

Have you separated accts. Don't be blind sided by empty accts.


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## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> Getting divorce packet today.


Did she have anything wlse to say last night?


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## PHTlump

Sorry to hear she went underground. But, at this point, you not making the choice. You're simply respecting her choice. You told her to choose you or him and she chose him. That's her right. But you're doing the right thing by standing up for yourself and your boys. The last thing you want to show your boys is that a husband is supposed to passively accept humiliation from his wife.

At this point, I suggest you ignore her as much as possible. Run a militant 180. If it doesn't concern your kids, you're not interested. Talk to several lawyers. Go to Divorce Advice for Men and Fathers | Men and Divorce | Cordell and Cordell | DadsDivorce.com for tips on how best to protect yourself. If she insists she hasn't been in contact, tell her (once) that you know she's lying. If she apologizes for contacting him, tell her (once) that you accept her apology, but you don't forgive her. If she wants to talk endlessly about her lies, tell her (once) that you've already addressed that topic and from now on, you'll be listening only to her actions, not her words.

If you're still open to reconciliation at all, you need to monitor her completely. She probably suspects that you're able to monitor her communications. So she's likely to buy a prepaid phone to use and/or use library computers or an internet cafe to communicate with him.

Install keylogger software on your PC so that you can monitor it 24/7. Put a VAR in her car. Put a GPS tracker in her car. If you plan on reconciling, you will need to know her actions 24/7.

And if you just want divorce, I sure don't blame you. In either case, you should hit the gym. Burn off some stress. You and your boys should get out of the house and do some man stuff. Go fishing or hunting or play paintball. Try to have some fun with them.

Good luck.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

chapparal said:


> Have you gotten separate bank accts yet? If its worse than you thought she may clean out bank accts. Cancel credit cards.


This. 

Her throwing things and pushing you are a sign she is willing to lash out at you for disrupting her "dream." She may decide to lash out again to hurt you by draining accounts or running up charges, particular to pay for things for the other man. Even if she snaps out of the fog, she may still hurt the two of you by preventing payments, incurring charges, etc. Get these financial issues in order so you can avoid unpleasant surprises. There is also the additional benefit of demonstrating to her that you are moving on.


----------



## imjustlost

Just pickedbup divorce packet. Dragging my kids through the public courthouse and metal detectors was depressing...

Taking my two boys out for a day of model trains and pizza. My stbxw can sit home alone and experience a taste of her future...


----------



## imjustlost

chapparal said:


> Did she have anything wlse to say last night?


No but she did enter the room I was in while I was playing with my boys. She stood there wanting to say something but never did, like she knew she was wrong but in that moment could bring herself to say anything. I looked her direction once but didnot say anything. She eventually walked off and did dishes and laundry. She didnt say anything this morning but she messaged her girlfriend that she needs prayers and guidance...


----------



## Chaparral

Tall Average Guy said:


> This.
> 
> Her throwing things and pushing you are a sign she is willing to lash out at you for disrupting her "dream." She may decide to lash out again to hurt you by draining accounts or running up charges, particular to pay for things for the other man. Even if she snaps out of the fog, she may still hurt the two of you by preventing payments, incurring charges, etc. Get these financial issues in order so you can avoid unpleasant surprises. There is also the additional benefit of demonstrating to her that you are moving on.


As a matter of fact I read a thread last night where the WW had lied about paying the bills and the house went into foreclosure. She may also have or will be trying to buy plane tickets to NY.


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

*rolls eyes*

"Prayers" and "guidance." How about dropping your toxic friend and genuinely apologizing for the BS?

Sorry about this, Lost. But it sounds like you're handling this as well as possible.

If her mom or whomever contacts you about how you're blowing things out of proportion or whatever, be sure that you let her know that she established a secret account to keep talking to this guy, and as opposed to apologizing to you, she did all she could to apologize to HIM.

Ugghhhh.


----------



## calif_hope

She needs prayers and guidance.........LOL

What she needs is: A swift kick in the ass by the Angel of Common Sence and Rational Thinking

What she is going to get is: Run over by the Kharma Bus, and maybe backed over a couple of times
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calif_hope

A suggestion, find someone to take care of the kids...ask her to meet you for coffee....show her the packet, ask her how you two will be spending the weekend: 

Option 1- Filling out the Pkg., splitting property, and debt, figuring out housing, custody, and visitation.

Option 2 - With OM FOREVER out your marriage - proceed with rebuilding trust and intimacy, researching IC/MC, and a family bonding event or two.

Frankly I don't see any other acceptable options.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

imjustlost said:


> She blew up got angry and threw a washcloth at me then pushed me. I told her to hit me. I was calm. She ran off slamming doors...Igrabbed my shoes.told her she just made her decison and I walked out.


I haven't read the whole thread, but if you don't have a VAR, then it's IMPERATIVE that you get one ASAP. She just tried to provoke you into domestic violence, so she is not above trying to call the cops on you. Do have the VAR on you at all times now until she is out of the house or she comes out of the fog. You need to protect yourself. I know it's difficult right now, but you need to separate any joint accounts before she has the chance to drain them, and start the D process. You can always postpone it or cancel it at any time. But have the VAR on you to protect yourself. Now is not the time to wallow in self pity.


----------



## maxter

lordmayhem said:


> I haven't read the whole thread, but if you don't have a VAR, then it's IMPERATIVE that you get one ASAP. She just tried to provoke you into domestic violence, so she is not above trying to call the cops on you. Do have the VAR on you at all times now until she is out of the house or she comes out of the fog. You need to protect yourself. I know it's difficult right now, but you need to separate any joint accounts before she has the chance to drain them, and start the D process. You can always postpone it or cancel it at any time. But have the VAR on you to protect yourself. Now is not the time to wallow in self pity.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Protect yourself. Get the VAR. I had to call the police on my W when she went totally berserk during a court ordered inspection of my rental place. The reality of the situation, that I was moving out and seeking full custody of our girls, overwhelmed her. You never know when your W might snap. And it's not good to have her provoking you either. A person can only take so much.


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## calif_hope

God yes, agree with Lordmayhem, get your self a VAR (voice activated recorder) - carry it with you at all times, they are small. Don't let her know you have it on you, you can find them at Radio Shack or similar stores. 

Look, your wife has lost control of the situation, you have it now. A little part of her opening the new accounts could be her trying to get some control back. 

It is sadly very common for WW in and effort to get control or to lash out in revenge of losing their fantasy life will if given the opportunity to lie to the authorities to obtain a restraining order or even jail you for domestic violence! As Lordmayhem councils you, protect yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustlost

QUESTION:

Those of you who have reconciled, are you truly happy?
Those of you who have not reconciled, do you regret it?

I just don't know if I can get past this level of selfishness and deception. It is like she has no conscience...


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## calif_hope

Simply, you can be very happy in reconciliation - not to discount her activity but as far as you have proof of, her behavior as ugly and harmful it is - is on the lower end as to others compared to other betrayed spouses on TAM.

If you reconcile you need establish the boundaries, she needs to accept and acknowledge her betrayal to not only you but to family and friends also. She needs IC and that should be mandated......it will be hard but you owe you kids a chance of having their family whole - but again only if she is 100% committed to you and your family.......if she can only commit less than 100% then you have little choice to divorce her now because you will eventually divorce her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> QUESTION:
> 
> Those of you who have reconciled, are you truly happy?
> Those of you who have not reconciled, do you regret it?
> 
> I just don't know if I can get past this level of selfishness and deception. It is like she has no conscience...



Your thinking to far into the future, these are not questions you should be asking now. Your wife is still in an affair and unless it is broken any R or talk thereof is a waste of breath.

For now you focus on making the affair very uncomfortable , wide exposure, run the 180, cut off the affair tools , secure your finances and file.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imjustlost

Just got home, and sat in the driveway to sniff some facebook sessions...
She messaged her girlfriend she was mad but was going to do whatever it takes to work it out. "The boys need their dad." She said. She told her friend OM was offended by my message LMAO! He damn well better be!

Her gf removed him too because she told her husband about the situation and he wasnt comfortable with them being fb friends. OM is throwing a temper tantrum because of it.


So I walk in, my wife greets us at the door (no words) and sees the divorce packet under my arm. She walks upstairs grabs a few papers and comes downstairs. She hands me two pages: one page shows her blocking OM.
Other page shows the unfriend confirmation. No words exchanged between us.
She just left for the store.


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## PHTlump

I'm with Eli-Zor. Until your wife ends her betrayal, you can't be happy while you're married to her. If she ends her betrayal, sure you can work things out.

But it seems that your wife is determined to cake-eat for as long as she possibly can. If anything can cause your wife to end her affair, it will likely take you filing for divorce.

Good luck.


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## imjustlost

Of course this doesnt mean jack because she prob has that other account still talking to him.


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## PHTlump

I'm happy for you that it appears that reconciliation is an option for you. However, I recommend you move very slowly. I think immediately accepting her last-minute capitulation to avoid divorce may embolden her and, even if it works, may cause you regret later that you didn't provide consequences for her actions. Even if you do nothing more than make her sweat a little while you sleep on it, you'll probably feel better.

If you're open to reconciliation, start on your list of conditions. Obviously, NC with he OM is the top of the list. But complete transparency should also be a condition. As well as marriage counseling.

And you absolutely have to verify her actions for several weeks/months. VAR, GPS tracker, keylogger, the works. The only thing worse than betrayal is betrayal followed by false reconciliation.

Good luck.


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## Beowulf

Continue pressing forward with the divorce. She has a secret fb account right? R will only be successful if she is 100% honest and comes completely clean. Don't disclose that you know things she is not aware of. If she wants to talk and asks why you are continuing the divorce just say "I know you aren't being honest with me and until you do we are done."


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## calif_hope

Damn, does this Jason guy collect heterosexual married women....some sort of gay mans game.... really can't clear that part in my mind, why in the hell would he be mad, he is across the country and in a supposed committed relationship.

The 'the boys need their dad' is her playing the victim, and thats bull ****, if it does not reveal sources I would call her on that.

Force her to engage with you and the boys, non of this silent treatment cr#p. She is all in now, or not....don't allow her to take the victim role or worse the mourning role.......

She has to accept that she had an EA and she betrayed you and caused you a great deal in pain, she has to state it in an adult manner.

I would fill out the papers, if she asks why - say simple - "Zero tolerance, if you have ANY direct or indirect communication with Jason or he communicates with in violation of the NC and you don't immediately tell me........it's divorce, no third chances.....strait to the court house.....I want to be ready for that, I hope and pray I don't need the papers later in but right now I don't trust you and your going to have to work hard to earn my trust back, I want this to work but our marriage will not survive you betraying me again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Let her know you have information she opened another Facebook account and is maintaining contact with the OM , be vague about the source . 

Do you have her password for that account , if so get onto his Facebook and save his friends list in a secure place. Please expose to all his friends.

What your wife is doing is as per normal to the wayward script , she is lying to both you and her friend. Focus on yourself , regardless what your wife says now you want hard evidence of her commitment to R. If she says she wants to R insist she hand writes a NC letter plus a letter of apology to your and her families. 

Remember your wife is deep in the fog , she asked for an open marriage and is actively cheating, keep that in the back of your mind and do not believe a word she says, all words must be followed up by action.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

A further flag , the OM may advise her to get a second phone , keep an eye open especialy if the text messages stop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calif_hope

Poor Jason was offended my you message / sounds like you struck a nerve!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unsure in Seattle

Eli-Zor said:


> Let her know you have information she opened another Facebook account and is maintaining contact with the OM , be vague about the source .


Yeah... be vague about it, but let her know you know that she's still got the account. Even ask her out right, maybe.

Point out that her actions prove that you were right to think something was amiss.


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## Shaggy

Do not let her know you know about the other fb account.

Can you monitor what goes on there? Watch for discussion about new phones etc. but never blow a secret source. Ever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unsure in Seattle

Well... yeah... but if she's going to go around to friends and family pointing out that she did what he asked... and paint him to be the bad guy who's completely irrational (you know it's coming)... 

I dunno. Exposing that she made a secret account just to talk to this guy is complete proof that Lost isn't nuts, insecure or controlling or being mean or whatever.


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## Eli-Zor

I am confused Shaggy , why would he continue playing this game? He tells her in no uncertain term he knows she has another account . This immediately lets her know her knows she is lying. There is no need for him to worry if she will get a further as she more than likely will. He is catching her lie and it is best done now rather than later . This also gives him more ammunition to say she by her action is confirming her ongoing adultery .

Edit: if he has the password of that account and uses it to expose to all the OM's friends it would be interesting to see her reaction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I suggest you tell her friend and her parents that you know she opened another account to continue her affair and then LIE to you about ending it. Let her try to spin to THEM.


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## Gabriel

calif_hope said:


> a suggestion, find someone to take care of the kids...ask her to meet you for coffee....show her the packet, ask her how you two will be spending the weekend:
> 
> Option 1- filling out the pkg., splitting property, and debt, figuring out housing, custody, and visitation.
> 
> Option 2 - with om forever out your marriage - proceed with rebuilding trust and intimacy, researching ic/mc, and a family bonding event or two.
> 
> Frankly i don't see any other acceptable options.
> _posted via mobile device_


exactly this!!


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## calif_hope

Best to keep sources hidden, will drive them deeper. Ask her to swear to never contact again or report contact - ask her to understand marriage is over if she does. 

If contact is made, ask her if she has anything to share with you. Then your decision you can forgive the lapse - take phone away, password PC or divorce.

Ronald Reagan: "Trust but Verify", keep you monitoring resources to yourself for as long as possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Eli-Zor said:


> I am confused Shaggy , why would he continue playing this game? He tells her in no uncertain term he knows she has another account . This immediately lets her know her knows she is lying. There is no need for him to worry if she will get a further as she more than likely will. He is catching her lie and it is best done now rather than later . This also give him more ammunition to say she by her action is confirming her ongoing adultery .
> 
> Edit: if he has the password of that account and uses it to expose to all the OM's friends it would be interesting to see her reaction.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It sounds like she in the end wants to get out of the fog. She's fence sitting and doing back room deals, but as he holds strong she is coming around.

Sure she has this second account, but she may not really use it.it may be an act of rebellion, but will wither and be abandoned. Keeping watch on it allows him to monitor if her claims remain true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel

I don't understand the logic of telling her he knows about the other account. By keeping that to himself, he can see her true colors. She gave him the "confirmation" she dropped/blocked him but that was from the original FB account, right? That does no good when the new one is going strong. Keep silently monitoring that.

This is so hard. You are doing great now. Just no sudden movements or decisions. Letting her sweat it out is the best thing you can do.


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## Unsure in Seattle

But her claims are ALREADY untrue, no?

I dunno. 

Lost, I'm sorry for this whole thing. So silly that she couldn't drop a (supposed) friend. What a crummy situation.


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## Shaggy

Unsure in Seattle said:


> But her claims are ALREADY untrue, no?
> 
> I dunno.
> 
> Lost, I'm sorry for this whole thing. So silly that she couldn't drop a (supposed) friend. What a crummy situation.


Her claims are untrue, but so far all she has really done is to setup a back channel out of defiance. She hasnt really used it.

Now if she is using it, then I'd proceed with the divorce but still never admit to knowing about the back channel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

How long do you suggest he 'allow' her to keep pretending to be cutting ties just so he doesn't show his cards? At what point does it become a matter of voyeurism rather than saying 'stop or move out'?


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## imjustlost

Ok so she took the block and unfriend screenshots 4 hours ago...
And posted a facebook game gift to OM's wall 2 hours ago...
She thinks I am ****ing idiot...
Time to get her agree to total transparency and honesty then trap her in lies.
I saw another message she sent to someone else saying she is so mad. Can we really move past this if she can't even see anything wrong with it???


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## Eli-Zor

Guys , my last say on this .

It is not out of defiance she created the account, she friended the OM. They agreed this before hand .

By stating he knows she has a second account he is calling her out.

She will deny , if so he simply states she will not have a problem confirming this on a polygraph . She knows he knows that she has been caught out.

Then he moves forward , she either commits or she is out . Further spying is inflicting self harm until she commits to the marriage then he verifies if she is telling the truth .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unsure in Seattle

I don't see the point in pretending things are hunky-dory. Why allow her to keep breaking his heart? 

She's already said one thing and done another. It's pointless game playing, in my opinion. He should give her one last chance to 'fess up... and if (when) she fails, lower the boom.

She clearly doesn't see what she's doing as being wrong. And "Jason" clearly doesn't give a **** that the giddy little thrill he gets from her attention has helped to destroy her marriage.


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## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> Ok so she took the block and unfriend screenshots 4 hours ago...
> And posted a facebook game gift to OM's wall 2 hours ago...
> She thinks I am ****ing idiot...
> Time to get her agree to total transparency and honesty then trap her in lies.
> 
> 
> I saw another message she sent to someone else saying she is so mad. Can we really move past this if she can't even see anything wrong with it???


Do you have access to her account? Yes or no
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

She is thick in the fog and unless you cause serious strife in the OM's life then on her this will continue .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imjustlost

@unsureinseattle: That is what I am thinking, give her one chance to be open and honest, no NY trip 100% committed to oblige with any request and IC / MC.

Anything else, divorce...I have already had enough and know I will be up and down again tomorrow and the next day. She doesnt see anything she has done as wrong, and apologized to him instead of me. I am gd livid.


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## imjustlost

Eli-Zor said:


> Do you have access to her account? Yes or no
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only with facebook sniffer. She has to be currently logged on then I can access it through my android phone. Considering a keylogger but need one that will not be found with Antivirus and Malware checks.


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## Gabriel

When are you doing this? I am now convinced of the logic of telling her he knows. But I wouldn't tell her how. Just say you know about the second account and that she is still talking with him and she has one last chance to keep the family together. 

Sorry, but I'd be shocked if she chose the family right now. She doesn't even think she's in the wrong it seems. She wants both. Sorry, B**CH.


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## Eli-Zor

See what you can do , you must try and take this guy out . The problem is your wife however if he is out of the picture then you have a better chance of her seeing reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imjustlost

Yeah I am thinking of writing a message to him saying, "What part of no contact do you not understand?" 

But really I feel she is not even worth fighting for at this point...


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## Eli-Zor

You can always imply his other friends have contacted you and gave you the info , whatever you say do not let her know what you can see. There are keyloggers that can be loaded even with the antivirus or malware checks .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> Yeah I am thinking of writing a message to him saying, "What part of no contact do you not understand?"
> 
> But really I feel she is not even worth fighting for at this point...


Don't contact him , the next time he hears your name is when his friends are calling him out on his adultery.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhereAmI

I wouldn't mention that you know about the FB. I'd say something along the lines of, "I know more than you believe I do. Unless you decide to tell me about all your communications and remove this man from your life, the divorce will continue." You may even learn more this way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unsure in Seattle

Don't contact him- no point. He obviously digs the drama.


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## Gabriel

eli-zor said:


> don't contact him , the next time he hears your name is when his friends are calling him out on his adultery.
> _posted via mobile device_


agree!!

Stop contacting him. He is enjoying the anguish - this will just feed his fun!!


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## Unsure in Seattle

WhereAmI said:


> I wouldn't mention that you know about the FB. I'd say something along the lines of, "I know more than you believe I do. Unless you decide to tell me about all your communications and remove this man from your life, the divorce will continue." You may even learn more this way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, this is what I was getting at.


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## imjustlost

Gabriel said:


> When are you doing this? I am now convinced of the logic of telling her he knows. But I wouldn't tell her how. Just say you know about the second account and that she is still talking with him and she has one last chance to keep the family together.
> 
> Sorry, but I'd be shocked if she chose the family right now. She doesn't even think she's in the wrong it seems. She wants both. Sorry, B**CH.


I do this whenever I suspect she is on the computer. Every time I sit in my car in the driveway before I leave or arrive. I ****ing hate having to do this. I just want honesty.


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## Eli-Zor

You need the keylogger asap
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel

No I meant when are you giving her the final ultimatum? Tell her what you know (but not how) and watch her jaw drop. She will be in awe. Then do what Calif-hope suggests. Sit down and ask her to decide - sign papers, or cut it off for real and work. Last chance ever.

It is salvageable, but barely.


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## imjustlost

I was thiking of asking her if they have talked, when she lies I say that's not what OMM told me. Then if she confesses I can tell her I was just bluffing.


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## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> I was thiking of asking her if they have talked, when she lies I say that's not what OMM told me. Then if she confesses I can tell her I was just bluffing.


Never admit to her that you are bluffing , she must always look over her shoulder and wonder what's happening on the OM's side. If she tells him what you said its bound to cause problems for him as he won't know any different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhereAmI

imjustlost said:


> I was thiking of asking her if they have talked, when she lies I say that's not what OMM told me. Then if she confesses I can tell her I was just bluffing.


Why play games? Just be up front and let her know you're aware their relationship hasn't ended. If she asks how, tell her it doesn't matter. Let her know you expect the full truth from her before even thinking about R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TDSC60

imjustlost said:


> Yeah I am thinking of writing a message to him saying, "What part of no contact do you not understand?"
> 
> But really I feel she is not even worth fighting for at this point...


From everything you have posted. She is clearly choosing a relationship with OM over you and the marriage. 

By setting up another secret account and apologizing to HIM for all the drama YOU have caused -- that would be the last straw for me.

Even if you successfully bust up this affair, odds are very good that she will develop another with someone. Do you really want to spend the rest of your married life having to be the detective. Just waiting for her to do it again. After all, she's not doing anything wrong. If this affair is not wrong in her eyes, she may eventually let this one go, but another is just over the horizon.

Your best option now is to file Divorce. She does not believe you will do it.


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## Shaggy

imjustlost said:


> I was thiking of asking her if they have talked, when she lies I say that's not what OMM told me. Then if she confesses I can tell her I was just bluffing.


Good plan up to the bluffing part. It only undermines your ability to do it again.

Also do not be specific about who told you what. Just say you've been told by reliable sources.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imjustlost

Gabriel said:


> No I meant when are you giving her the final ultimatum? Tell her what you know (but not how) and watch her jaw drop. She will be in awe. Then do what Calif-hope suggests. Sit down and ask her to decide - sign papers, or cut it off for real and work. Last chance ever.
> 
> It is salvageable, but barely.


Not telling her what I know. She *thinks* she is underground and that is the way I want it. Telling her will only drive her further underground.


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## maxter

imjustlost said:


> But really I feel she is not even worth fighting for at this point...


This whole terrible experience is very new for you and your emotions are all over the place. You will feel a lot of anger, resentment, and frustration. But think about this- if your wife was addicted to pain pills or was an alcoholic, would you dump her as quickly? Or would you recognize that she is afflicted with an illness and desperately needs your help. You can't make her stop. All you can do is make her see and feel the consequences of her actions to the point she comes out of her fog and reality sets in. Then and only then will she be able to think clearly and rationalize what she has done.

Despite all the 'bad' going on right now, do you still love her? Maybe those feelings of love have been diminished or even severely quashed. If there is any glimmer of love for her left in your heart, soldier on! It may not work out in the end but at least you can look yourself in the mirror and say you did everything you possibly could to save your marriage & family.


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## imjustlost

Thanks maxter for the perspective. I am NOT confident I won't regret it. I do owe my sons all the effort to make this work.


It is so hard to not give up on someone who has already given up on you.


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## Eli-Zor

I suggest you sit down and create a sequence of steps and tasks that you must do. Assume no matter what you say your wife is not going to come round in the short term . After confronting your wife again contact her family and let them know she is still in the affair and taken it underground , load the keylogger then take the OM out. Think rationally and no matter how p***ed you are be methodical , calm and when it comes to exposure clinical.

Be in control , the tables will turn especially once the broader friend community finds out and you filing hits her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel

Here's the thing. This guy is gay, so she doesn't fathom why her H is so bent out of shape. But she clearly is infatuated with the guy anyway, and has this wink-wink thing going on with him like "oh poor hubby, he's got his panties in a bunch over US? He's crazy, Girl."

And because he is so charming, she is siding with him and not respecting H's wishes. H has had enough of the disrespect, and is playing hardball, to the point WW is getting pissed, like, "seriously, H? He's GAY. What is the big deal?" But she realizes this has spun out of control, and is battling her emotional needs with this gay friend in an borderline inappropriate relationship, with keeping her H at bay and thinking she's cut it off, because she feels it's really not what H thinks. 

In the process though, she has used pet names with him, told him she loves him, probably playfully and not in a deep romantic sense. But since H has seen this, he is pulling the stop card, and she just can't/wont.

Don't know why, but I just felt like I needed to sum that up for myself, and anyone new to this thread that has officially BLOWN UP.


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## imjustlost

Yep that pretty much sums it up...

Oh and also the "romantic things to do in NYC" search. 

Oh, and the "menstral cycle.calendar search", how could I forget that one?!?!

Also a search for "songs about secret love."


Oh, and two open marriage proposals by her...

****, I think I am going to be sick...


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## calif_hope

If you do contact him, tell your going to take trip to see him!!!

Spend the evening filling out the divorce papers, gathering financial data, she will ask why, opens the door to a needed conversation.....I'm getting you two are not talking much and you need to......but please have a VAR on you that she doesn't know about........
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imjustlost

I've refused to talk to her because it just devolves into her denying anything is wrong and how dare I contact other people about what she did. She redirects blame every chance she gets never facing the issue, she's just not capable of having a meaningful conversation about it unless I lead her and correct her shifting of blame, which she hates.


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## Gabriel

A thought just entered my head. Given the songs and romantic NYC searches (I will let the menstrual one go - might be a stretch there), it's very possible that she is trying to turn the Jason straight. That he is everything she would want, only problem is his sexual orientation. This could be her plan and she is biding time to see if it works. And then if it didn't she'd come crawling back to you all sorrowful. But you caught it too soon. Good for you.

This might not be the case but it's very possible. And her guise to you and to the OMM is that they are just friends.


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## Gabriel

And I will add that I DO NOT BELIEVE people "turn" gay or straight. You are born the way you are.


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## Beowulf

Like I said before, continue with the process of divorce. MAKE HER SWEAT! When she comes to you...and she will...asking why you are still proceeding with the divorce just tell her she has not been honest and until she is you are done. Say it calmly and quietly. She will deny anything is going on. When she does that just say "I know a lot more than you think. I know you aren't telling me the truth. Do you think you can continue to carry on with this and I won't find out?" Then say "when you are ready to come clean and reconcile our marriage I will be her...at least until the divorce is final." Then walk away.


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## turnera

imjustlost said:


> I was thiking of asking her if they have talked, when she lies I say that's not what OMM told me. Then if she confesses I can tell her I was just bluffing.


 That sounds like something a 12 year old would do.

You're a man. BE a man. Be a gd pissed-off man!

Please trust me when I tell you that you have one chance and one chance ONLY of getting a wayward wife to give up her OM - and it doesn't involve you saying 'I was bluffing'!

It involves you saying "I am kicking you out if you don't spill it all RIGHT NOW. You have TWO MINUTES. Start talking."


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## imjustlost

Beowulf said:


> Like I said before, continue with the process of divorce. MAKE HER SWEAT! When she comes to you...and she will...asking why you are still proceeding with the divorce just tell her she has not been honest and until she is you are done. Say it calmly and quietly. She will deny anything is going on. When she does that just say "I know a lot more than you think. I know you aren't telling me the truth. Do you think you can continue to carry on with this and I won't find out?" Then say "when you are ready to come clean and reconcile our marriage I will be her...at least until the divorce is final." Then walk away.


Love this though I do not want to make her go further underground.


As far as the searches, those were done way back before she asked me for an open marriage, and maybe even before she even knew he was gay. This "gay" guy did have sex with a female in high school, then shortly after got pregnant and killed herself. What my wife told me...Who knows if it's the truth.

My wife also mentioned in a private message with another girl that he is gay, "some girl tried to cyber him and he got really uncomfortable".

Part of me believes my wife was "some girl" and tried to cyber him, but I don't know for sure...Regardless, how would that even come up in conversation between her and him???


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## imjustlost

Was thinking of paying $100 for someone to hack his facebook account (I've seen a few services) so I can see his messages. I will get the password and they won't ask for payment until they screenshot from inside the person's account. But who knows if I will get scammed, or if he has already deleted those messages...

My wife deletes her messages about every day from him, so they never go far back. She has been doing this since Thanksgiving timeframe. Oh god the pain I was going through then...


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## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> Was thinking of paying $100 for someone to hack his facebook account (I've seen a few services) so I can see his messages. I will get the password and they won't ask for payment until they screenshot from inside the person's account. But who knows if I will get scammed, or if he has already deleted those messages...
> 
> My wife deletes her messages about every day from him, so they never go far back. She has been doing this since Thanksgiving timeframe. Oh god the pain I was going through then...



Why worry , all you want is to get access to your wife's account, then his friends list. A keylogger will get her password for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calif_hope

FB will download all messages, deleated or not, but they will send a confirming e-mail.

Sad to say, your going to need to proceed with divorce, 
Can you afford to take the boys for a trip, someplace close, stay a night or two in a hotel. 

Tell What your going to do...need a trip with the boys to make a good memory before all the legal stuff starts and it gets ugly. Even if the trip is to the next town to see a movie would be major for the boys.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

imjustlost said:


> Thanks maxter for the perspective. I am NOT confident I won't regret it. I do owe my sons all the effort to make this work.
> 
> 
> It is so hard to not give up on someone who has already given up on you.


Have you learned about the biology/psychology of a cheater? When people embark on affairs (unless they're just d*cks), it's because the flirting that starts between them starts a chemical flowing in their brains called PEA. It's the same chemical YOU and she felt when you were dating - like you were in heaven, all you could think about was her, life was gonna be peachy together, damn the rest of the world-we're in love. All that.

Except now she's feeling it with him. Now, he may really like her, or he may be grooming her for sex. Or he may even really be gay. Doesn't matter. What matters is that the wife you knew has been 'taken over' by an alien. She is now a drug addict, desperate to keep those PEA highs coming - NOTHING ELSE MATTERS to a drug addict than those highs. 

So, right now, she is NOT your wife. Please don't waste time trying to decide if you can keep 'this' wife. If she ends the affair and reaches humility (a MUST) via apologizing and making it up to you at some point, you'll get your old wife back. Until then, you are wasting valuable breath trying to figure her out or logic with her. Right now, you're just some jerk trying to keep her away from her high, which she can only get from 'the one true love of her life.' I know, it sucks. But it's what you got right now. 

So forget that part for now. Concentrate on ending the affair. You do that methodically (and this is a tested, proven way to do it) - 

1) You go to the bank and all credit agencies and put a hold on all money accounts so she can't pull anything out without your permission.

2) You tell her you know she's still cheating and give her ONE chance to stop

3) If she says no or if you catch her communicating, you call up her #1 VIP in her life - a mother, father, best friend, whomever's respect she cares more about than anyone else. You tell that person what she's doing and ask them to talk to her so you can save the marriage. Remind them that the marriage can survive y'all's issues, but it can't surive a third person, an interloper. Tell them that, if she gets rid of OM and you two try to work it out, you will walk away if it doesn't work, but that NOTHING can get resolved while she is cheating. Tell them about the PEA chemicals.

4) If this person talks to her and she still won't stop, you call her parents, siblings, pastor, and best friends, and do the same with them. You find OM's parents/siblings and you tell them the same thing - get some pressure on his end. It's worth the money for a PI if you don't have that info yet - much cheaper than a divorce.

5) You step back and wait for the shyte to hit the fan while she explodes all over you for 'ruining her life' by telling on her. Ignore her. Offer her a cookie. There is NO communicating with a WW. Calmly repeat at every opportunity: "Until you stop cheating, I have nothing more to say to you." Nothing else. Let her fume. Let her sulk. She'll tell you things like:
I was GOING to give him up, but then you went and ruined it.
I was GOING to stay here but I have no choice but to go to him now because of you.
I'm going STRAIGHT to my lawyer and it's all your fault.
I'm taking the boys and you'll never see them again.
All my family and friends think you're an idiot and crazy.
You're ruined any chance we had of getting back together.

Stuff like that. Ignore it all. Let it spew out like a volcano. Remain calm. Reiterate: Him or me.

6) If, after one week, she is still communicating with him, go to the lawyer and start the paperwork; bring home something for her to hold in her hands for better impact.

7) Buy some suitcases or boxes and you pack up all her crap. Put it all in the garage or a storage unit or on the front porch. When she explodes again, calmly hand her the divorce papers, tell her "I've talked to your parents (or whatever works in your situation) and they are waiting for you to move in with them. The kids stay in their own home. Lawyer already agreed." (now you can bluff)

8) Finally, if all this still doesn't turn the tide, you help her move out and you get on with your life because THAT person is not worth having.


----------



## imjustlost

turnera said:


> That sounds like something a 12 year old would do.
> 
> You're a man. BE a man. Be a gd pissed-off man!
> 
> Please trust me when I tell you that you have one chance and one chance ONLY of getting a wayward wife to give up her OM - and it doesn't involve you saying 'I was bluffing'!
> 
> It involves you saying "I am kicking you out if you don't spill it all RIGHT NOW. You have TWO MINUTES. Start talking."


Thanks, great points again. I need to hear this.

I will have to sit back and gather more info on her underground account. 
Once I get something more incriminating, I will do this.

First things first, no-contact letter.
She conveniently forgot that part...

Will not ask her if she has any other game accounts, because that might scare her to go more underground.

I will ask her about her main game account that is now deactivated. (she doesn't know I know it's deactivated) and if she still plays SIMs with him (the facebook game she plays with him (they have sex in the game and post notifications on each other's walls, it's so cute!!).

I know she plays that game on her new underground account as early as this afternoon before I got home.

Tell her she needs to give me 100% in fixing this, IC/MC.
No lies, complete transparency.

If she fails to do any of these, we divorce.


----------



## turnera

You're contradicting yourself. One one hand, you say you don't want her to go underground, which means you want to keep monitoring her. If you're going to keep monitoring her with that sniff thing, who cares if she goes underground? You'll just catch it on the sniff thing.

On the other hand you say you will confront her. Are you saying that you will monitor for, say, two more days and THEN follow my steps? Because, once you do, she either hands everything over or you kick her out. Then she can cheat to her heart's content cos she's gone.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

Your just talking. 

It's becoming clear that your not going to get anywhere until your "done", when that happens you may finally have the resolve to take decisive action. The type of action that has been repeatedly recommended (read Turena's post above for another recap) and would have given you the opportunity to truly recover your marriage. 

Ironically, if you keep stalling it's likely the damage that is building up will make your marriage unrecoverable. Your not listening to us, or your listening selectively. The clock is ticking loudly and your still dancing to her song. 

Also, here's some more about what Turnera is referring to. Re; whats happening to her "chemically" link.

I'll leave you with a reminder of a conversation 48 hours ago...



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Guess you think she wont tell him to ignore that when she sends the 2nd email after she opens a new email account, second facebook account, and a disposable phone? If she hasn't already, she will... I promise.





imjustlost said:


> If that's the case, and I find out...No discussion, she is getting directly served with divorce papers with no chance for reconciliation.


Now you've confirmed, she did indeed open that account... 

and what are you doing? your talking about hacking some guys facebook account and "sitting back" and gathering more information.... 

sigh...

Stop talking, TAKE ACTION.


----------



## turnera

Oh, that's right! 

ijl, do you truly think your wife will WANT you if you're too chicken to stand up to her? That is NOT attractive.


----------



## calif_hope

Is she a stay at home, how does a mother of two have so much time to be online (FB & Games) she is like a teenager.

She can't be spending much time engaging the boys, or spending quality time and can't be downing quality time with you or engaged in conversation and like........not to mention taking care if home stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TDSC60

She says she has done nothing wrong but is mad that you exposed her behavior. If it was not wrong, why does she care who knows about it?

She created secret accounts to continue what she has been doing all along, being selfish, secretive, emotionally abusive to you, disrespectful of you, your children, your marriage, and continues to play you for a fool.

How much more evidence do you need?


----------



## aug

turnera said:


> Oh, that's right!
> 
> ijl, do you truly think your wife will WANT you if you're too chicken to stand up to her?* That is NOT attractive.*


I think that's the key deficiency here.


----------



## imjustlost

turnera said:


> You're contradicting yourself. One one hand, you say you don't want her to go underground, which means you want to keep monitoring her. If you're going to keep monitoring her with that sniff thing, who cares if she goes underground? You'll just catch it on the sniff thing
> On the other hand you say you will confront her. Are you saying that you will monitor for, say, two more days and THEN follow my steps? Because, once you do, she either hands everything over or you kick her out. Then she can cheat to her heart's content cos she's gone.


I can't track where she goes on her phone. She may stop using the computers thinking I keylogged them. She may go to the public library and use their computers. These are things I cannot track and do not want to force her into until I have something else.


----------



## Beowulf

imjustlost said:


> I can't track where she goes on her phone. She may stop using the computers thinking I keylogged them. She may go to the public library and use their computers. These are things I cannot track and do not want to force her into until I have something else.


Just curious but what more do you need? Don't you already have enough?


----------



## imjustlost

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Your just talking.
> 
> I'll leave you with a reminder of a conversation 48 hours ago...
> 
> Now you've confirmed, she did indeed open that account...
> 
> and what are you doing? your talking about hacking some guys facebook account and "sitting back" and gathering more information....
> 
> sigh...
> 
> Stop talking, TAKE ACTION.


You're right.

I don't have proof that they talked. I can only assume they did.


----------



## TDSC60

imjustlost said:


> You're right.
> 
> I don't have proof that they talked. I can only assume they did.


You DO have proof. The secret accounts - remember those?

Do you think she created them and hid them from you just for giggles and grins? She created them so see could continue her affair and she has done just that.


----------



## imjustlost

Secret account yes, but no proof they talked. For all I know, his friend could have told him. I'm going to out here but I need solid proof they talked and AFTER the no contact is in place. Which she agreed to do.


----------



## DailyGrind

imjustlost said:


> Secret account yes, but no proof they talked. For all I know, his friend could have told him. I'm going to out here but I need solid proof they talked and AFTER the no contact is in place. Which she agreed to do.


Didn't she post on his FB wall...AFTER "deleting" her account? That seems pretty definitive to me.


----------



## imjustlost

DailyGrind said:


> Didn't she post on his FB wall...AFTER "deleting" her account? That seems pretty definitive to me.


Could it end the marriage? Yes.

I want the no-contact letter sent and then received certified letter.

Then fire and brimstone if she breaks it.

Right now we have no definitive agreement, just a lax understanding that she won't.

Look I know I said something in the heat of the moment, but a lot of you guys have made me understand that I have my family to think about. I was ready to drop her, but I took what some people said to heart and I want to give it my best shot. Her sending that letter might change something in her. It might not, but I do have some hope left...

If after the no contact letter is received and she still does. I can feel confident with myself, that I did all I could to save this and reconciliation will not be possible.

i just hug my boys and I forget for a second about the hurt I feel.


----------



## DailyGrind

imjustlost said:


> Could it end the marriage? Yes.
> 
> I want the no-contact letter sent and then received certified letter.
> 
> Then fire and brimstone if she breaks it.
> 
> Look I know I said something in the heat of the moment, but a lot of you guys have made me understand that I have my family to think about. I was ready to drop her, but I took what some people said to heart and I want to give it my best shot. Her sending that letter might change something in her. It might not, but I do have some hope left...
> 
> If after the no contact letter is received and she still does. I can feel confident with myself, that I did all I could to save this and reconciliation will not be possible.


Well...my thoughts are that you need to decide which way you want to go. If R is your ultimate goal...then you probably need to nip this NOW...and get her out of this contact cycle. THEN...you can start working on the marriage. I don't recall if you are doing counseling...but give it a try (maybe both MC and IC.) But...STOP the contact now.

If, on the other hand...your goal is to get the evidence to satisfy your need for definitive closure..and initiate D. Then...yes...gather more. But...I think you have enough to continue the paperwork, if this is the direction you want.


----------



## TDSC60

I can't remember without reading through the entire thread - do you have a VAR you can place in your home to catch any phone calls?


----------



## imjustlost

Again, thank you everyone for the support and advice. I really appreciate it.


----------



## imjustlost

TDSC60 said:


> I can't remember without reading through the entire thread - do you have a VAR you can place in your home to catch any phone calls?


She has never even talked to him, according to her phone bill.


----------



## Chaparral

Have you protected yoyurself financially?


----------



## imjustlost

turnera said:


> Oh, that's right!
> 
> ijl, do you truly think your wife will WANT you if you're too chicken to stand up to her? That is NOT attractive.


Too chicken to stand up to her?

Am I a chicken for wanting to get a NC in effect?

I tried the "get angry scream at her" tactic. It didn't ****ing work. She reminds me of the crazed maniac who yelled at her with a vein protruding from his neck after i found her "heart fluttered for him". You know what it changed? Nothing.

The fog is strong.

I WILL feel comfortable in eliminating any chance of reconciliation if we have a NC in place, received and SIGNED by OM.

Anything less and I will feel like I took the easy way out.

I'm hoping the fog will lift as she writes it as I stand over her and direct her pen.

If it doesn't hold and she breaks it, I can feel confident (and she can too) that the outcome will be appropriate.

Please understand I appreciate your advice and the support of ALL of you. I know you're here to help.


----------



## Chaparral

Have these questions ready when she wants to talk and keep repeating them as long as she lies.

Why were you calculating the days your period was going to fall on while you were in NY?

Why were you having virtual sex with him in an online game?

Why did you said he was gay, but I have people telling me he is definitely bisexual?........(This is true, I just told you.)

Were you planning on coming back from NY?

Is he paying for your trip?

Aren't you afraid of loosing your kids when a judge sees what you have been doing?

Why were you sending him songs about secret love?

Why were you looking for romantic places to visit without your husband?

Are you and your boyfriend setting up secret accounts?

These are some of the questions you can ask her instead of answering something she is lying about. Just keep harping along these lines and any other quetions you have. You need to spread doubt about what she thinks you know with out EVER giving up your sources. She needs to think you have sources near home and in NY.

Give your MIL all the info you can without revealing sources.

Think slowly and do not dwell on this 24/7. I am afraid you are ping ponging. Stick to a few points and hang on like a junk yard dog. 

I am near certain you can save your family and after counseling can have a better marriage than ever.

Stay strong and lead.


----------



## Chaparral

Be ready for this to take some time. You can't expect to win without some patience. You need to take some breaks, stay cool and the more time she has to dwell on whats happening the more her confidence will crumble. This is simply a battle of wits,steady as she goes. 

One more question to ask her. Why would you give up your family for a bisexual man in NY city?


BTW anyone that would believe he turned gay because his girlfriend committed suicide would buy the Brooklyn bridge from him. ROTFLMAO


----------



## Beowulf

chapparal said:


> BTW anyone that would believe he turned gay because his girlfriend committed suicide would buy the Brooklyn bridge from him. ROTFLMAO


I already bought it and it's not for sale.


----------



## calif_hope

Imjustlost, you taken some hits today, shake it off. I agree you need more than "I don't want you to communicate...Ok I won't" agreement if a violation will end your marriage.....right now both of you are charging through this and details can get lost.

Write up what you want in the NC letter which will communicate the agreement between you and your wife. It is in writing, no confusion or feigned ignorance later......

I would't hold your breath getting OM to sign a response, he is enjoying the drama, I bet he is a fan of soaps. The practice of the NC letter is yes to put OP in notice, but it's value is the process of the WS writing the letter while supervised by the BS.....the process it the magic.

I pray she wakes up soon....take care, get rest, no booze!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustlost

Thank you brother...As for.the booze...too late...


----------



## Shaggy

Put down the booze. Your greatest asset in this battle is yourself, your wit, your passion, youR determination. Booze blunts all those things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

imjustlost are you OK

The ride will be rough hang in there. Give up the drink and work consistently on the 180, it will make you stronger and scare the hell out of her. Create a plan that you can refer back to if you start wandering.

Be confident , you can still save your marriage although it won't be the same marriage you had before her affair. It can be a better one if you both actively work on it. 

Your wife will have to admit her adultery, show remorse and jump though hoops. You in turn will have to identify why your wife went awandering and plug those areas where you fell short. However this does not say you accept any responsibility for the affair, that is her doing only.

As for the OM , stop referring to him as gay. His sexual preference has nothing to do with the affair. He is a fully functioning male who is actively predating on your marriage , he is very capable of playing with her emotions, drawing her in and having sex with her. 

Take the OM out and make his life unpleasant, isolate your wife from him then and only then can you focus on your wife and her issues.


----------



## Chaparral

Hopefully he's just taking a much needed break........


----------



## turnera

I don't mean to be rude; I am just worried because I've seen this dance before. If I could just get a little more evidence...

I do get wanting to prove that she went back and contacted him; I just want to make sure you don't find yet another reason to wait. Set yourself a timeline and stick to it. That way you won't beat yourself up.


----------



## imjustlost

Told her I was divorcing her. Told her we need.to keep it civil, for.the boys sake. I was calm, she told me she wants to help pay off our debt she helped contribute to. I called her out on everything I knew. Told her i cant live with her lies. Moving on and I feel relieved mostly. 

Thank you EVERYONE for all the support. I wojld not have been able to do this with out you guys. I love you all (no ****)


----------



## Chaparral

What did she say about picking OM over her family. Hope you've separated bank accts so she doesn't use your money to go to NY. Unless she has aleady bought tickets.


----------



## Chaparral

In love with a fantasy. I'm stunned.


----------



## Chaparral

Now I'm wondering if he hasn't been in your neck of the woods.


----------



## lordmayhem

imjustlost said:


> Was thinking of paying $100 for someone to hack his facebook account (I've seen a few services) so I can see his messages. I will get the password and they won't ask for payment until they screenshot from inside the person's account. But who knows if I will get scammed, or if he has already deleted those messages...
> 
> My wife deletes her messages about every day from him, so they never go far back. She has been doing this since Thanksgiving timeframe. Oh god the pain I was going through then...


I will admit that I have done this, but with the method that's used, there's no guarantee that it will work.


----------



## calif_hope

Help pay off,nice! She should be assigned a percentage 50% sounds right and she is responsible for paying that off. Help, funny!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calif_hope

Bet money she still thinks your bluffing......realty hasn't hit her......you may have to take this right up to the steps of the court house.....I would be she will start breaking down as you process with the paperwork....telling the kids.

I seen this twice and the WS broke down right after, call a Realtor, arrange for them to come by for a potential listing....tell wife you both to tidy house for the realtors visit....tell lawyers advice as house likely will have to be sold in the divorce......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ing

She has fallen in love with the OM. There is no way you can fight this. So stop fighting. I strongly suspect that you are essential to the dance they are doing. You must remove yourself from her drama as it is highly destructive to you and any future relationship you may have with her.
Stop fighting her. Stop demanding. Stop being involved and go about you business. 
Stop being her friend. NOW.


----------



## Chaparral

I thought this would be easier to resolve than this. However, considering the plans she has made to go to NY to visit pile of sh!t, I should have known better.

Good luck IJL... Sooner or later things will be better. Stay calm and don't do anything rash please. Do what ever it takes to protect your boys. Wife can not take them out of state after you file. (most states)


----------



## Chaparral

Put him on cheaterville.com Then send him a message to google his name.


----------



## calif_hope

Usually I agree regarding Cheaterville but I think the OM get a kick out if it.....I believe he is a sick psychopath gay men with a vendetta against hetrosexual married men, I think he us collecting married women in his Facebook/email/online game accounts.

The WW girl friend told her hubby about these events, the BBF was also this AP Facebook (husband ask her to remove and did (should verify)).

The WW is addicted to the, a fantasy, and he is playing game with pride. 

Their are unusual factors here and we have to consider them when we give our friend here some advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

Early days yet, load the keylogger track his friends and ruin his fantasy , once done life becomes more complicated for them .

In the meantime focus on you and the well being of your family . Take each day as it comes , the 180 will help .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

calif_hope said:


> Usually I agree regarding Cheaterville but I think the OM get a kick out if it.....I believe he is a sick psychopath gay men with a vendetta against hetrosexual married men, I think he us collecting married women in his Facebook/email/online game accounts.
> 
> The WW girl friend told her hubby about these events, the BBF was also this AP Facebook (husband ask her to remove and did (should verify)).
> 
> The WW is addicted to the, a fantasy, and he is playing game with pride.
> 
> Their are unusual factors here and we have to consider them when we give our friend here some advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I considered this. But, I think he's just another NY bisexual perv. She will be luck to even survive this affair.

Wish ILJ would have a background check on him.


----------



## imjustlost

Thanks again for all the great advice. I really appreciate the support and time all of you have put into my situation.

I am doing the hard 180 and am moving on.
I deserve better, someone who will fight for me.
I told her to forget about me, forget about us because there is no chance of reconciliation. I told her she can go to NY, and I hope she has a great time. During that time I will take my kids to my sister's place in GA and enjoy time with family. Right now I'm optimistic and comfortable with my decision. I would rather raise my boys in a household where their father is happy rather than lied to and taken for granted. What kind of father would I be to show them that is acceptable?

Thanks again everyone.


----------



## Chaparral

Go to this page and see what xrayz was able to do. Keep us updated if you can.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...-cheated-pro-hockey-player-14.html#post541973


----------



## aug

imjustlost said:


> Told her I was divorcing her. Told her we need.to keep it civil, for.the boys sake. I was calm, she told me she wants to help pay off our debt she helped contribute to. I called her out on everything I knew. Told her i cant live with her lies. Moving on and I feel relieved mostly.
> 
> Thank you EVERYONE for all the support. I wojld not have been able to do this with out you guys. *I love you all (no ****)*


that's funny given the key players in this thread. made me laughed.
:smthumbup:


----------



## ing

imjustlost said:


> Thank you brother...As for.the booze...too late...


Off the booze! It is an depressant. If you need medication go to the Doctor and get some anti-depressants, These will also help with your 180 and Letting Go. You will remain calm.


----------



## calif_hope

What was her reaction to all of this today, has to be more than agreeing to pay some of the debt'
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

I am not sure if this has blown up into something bigger than it has to. OP, the emotions are running high right now.You have every right to be angry and pissed off. Let your feeling stabilize before you make some permanent decisions.


----------



## imjustlost

calif_hope said:


> What was her reaction to all of this today, has to be more than agreeing to pay some of the debt'
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She sat down on the floor and cried. Then still repeated, "But, I need friends in my life..." sigh

The last straw that caused this was her texting him while she was at the gym, this is after she agreed to do the no-contact letter. When she got home, I asked her to write the NC letter. She sighed, tilted her head. I asked her if she talked to Jason today.

She said, "No."

I then told her she was lying, and that she texted him earlier. I then told her about the fake account she made up to still talk to Jason. I told her about her message to him that she still wants to see him in April despite her telling me she wanted to do "whatever it takes." Her message where she apologized to HIM from the bottom of her heart for this, and that she can understand if he never wants to talk to him, she can only HOPE that he will...

Remember how she blocked him??? Yeah, she blocked another guy with the same name to make it look like she did.

I told her I cannot be continuously lied to, she has broken all trust and that we are divorcing.

She sat down on the floor and sobbed...

I've thought a lot about our history, and her general selfishness and I think it's time for me to move on. Two years ago I battled depression and panic disorder, let me tell you those were the hardest times of my life, almost as bad as this. She did nothing for me in those times, she didn't even notice. I walked up to her and told her I needed her help, and gave her a hug. She looked at me like I had three heads...I have never felt so alone in my life. I need someone who is on my side, will be there for me. If I get cancer, or some other disease or am in a situation that I need my wife to help me, I don't think she could be there for me. I need someone that will.

And, now, I can't have my boys see us like this. Fighting, lying, deceiving. ALL our energy is going into this absurd struggle. I need to move on.


I will add too, that she is the one who proposed an open marriage twice in a month. The second time she mentioned the open marriage she was drunk and said some pretty interesting things that she now doesn't admit to. Things like going our separate ways so she can "find herself" again, and go out and party. She told me we "just don't have a connection anymore". She wanted to split up the boys, she would take the non-autistic child. That killed me the most. For her to say that, man. My heart broke. 

Who knows...If she does wake up we may be able to work this out. But, she has got to do some pretty spectacular things. As for me...180.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Step and give yourself some space. 

Here is a record player:-

Run the 180 , this includes no relationship talk. Read it , think it , act it.

You must expose the OM , load the keylogger. Why do you want to do this? Would you want him to meet your children ? Be in the same house as them ? Exposure is to protect you and let the consequences of an affair be felt.

Don't make big decisions , file there is no need to rush it . Your seeing the worst in your wife as she sees the worst in you.

Is she a SAHM ? If so get her to work , secure your monies and have her pay half the common bills .

Be honest with your children , how old are they? They know there is a problem at home , tell them the truth choosing your words but not diluting your wife's infidelity. Let them know you will be there for them and love them .

Do not tell your wife what you are doing, keep quiet even if it is killing you inside.

Buy a VAR and carry it on you at all times, waywards are renowned for making false accusations 

Control your emotions , your marriage may still work out and get better or not. It is to early to make that decision now .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

BTW: it looks like you had a good confrontation, the only mistake on a previous post is you agreeing to the NY visit let her know if she goes she will find her stuff on the street. No threats , don't kick her out , let her make that decision. If she does leave home, your children stay, include abandonment in the divorce, go dark and cut her out of your life, 

If you effectively expose before this proposed there should be little appetite from the OM to see your wife.

What your wife is doing is no different to what many waywards do. What you do from now on determines the future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

> I will add too, that she is the one who proposed an open marriage twice in a month. The second time she mentioned the open marriage she was drunk and said some pretty interesting things that she now doesn't admit to. Things like going our separate ways so she can "find herself" again, and go out and party. She told me we "just don't have a connection anymore". She wanted to split up the boys, she would take the non-autistic child. That killed me the most. For her to say that, man. My heart broke.


Waywards can say some pretty means things.


----------



## imjustlost

She is SAHM. Thursday she is going to look for a job. She understands she may have to work nights somewhere because of my job. She doesn't like it, but tough ****! OM is worth it!


----------



## Eli-Zor

> She understands she may have to work nights somewhere because of my job


Why nights? in the real world if divorced the children will be at daycare. She would be paying half the cost. 

A busy daytime job should keep her occupied, she would be tired when she comes home, no time for fun with OM or anyone else, the pressures of a single parent and consequences of an affair.

You should demand she gets a proper full time daytime job, there are no half measures of her "sort of working" and living in a comfortable secure home playing happy families.


----------



## Chaparral

Eli-Zor said:


> Why nights? in the real world if divorced the children will be at daycare. She would be paying half the cost.
> 
> A busy daytime job should keep her occupied, she would be tired when she comes home, no time for fun with OM or anyone else, the pressures of a single parent and consequences of an affair.
> 
> You should demand she gets a proper full time daytime job, there are no half measures of her "sort of working" and living in a comfortable secure home playing happy families.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

Time for the real world to help occupy her time. Maybe the real world can warm her cold, cold heart.

Sounds like she wants a fulltime baby sitter for a part time job. Oh yeah,she wants to parteee.


----------



## PHTlump

Eli-Zor said:


> Why nights? in the real world if divorced the children will be at daycare. She would be paying half the cost.


Daycare for an autistic child may be cost prohibitive, or just not an option at all.



Eli-Zor said:


> You should demand she gets a proper full time daytime job, there are no half measures of her "sort of working" and living in a comfortable secure home playing happy families.


Agree with this. Of course, the court may see things differently.

I know you want things amicable, but you certainly need a lawyer to advise you of your rights.

Good luck.


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## Chaparral

If reconcilliation ever does come up, from how you describe her, Individual counseling for your wife would be a must. MC too. And if you can afford it IC for you and the boys now. Be sure to see your MD as soon as possible. Other posters, going thruough this, say the meds are a God send in helping them cope. 

Prayers for your family.


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## Gabriel

Send prayers your way too, OP. This is just hell for you, I know.

Leave the glimmer of R open, if you can. Even though your W has done a lot of lying, she hasn't done nearly as much bad as most of the waywards on this board. She may come around.

But I completely understand if you are not able to R. The trust will take years to come back. You will be checking on her for a long time, and if R does start to look possible, you need to sit down with her and discuss your concerns about her taking care of you in time of need. That would be a concern even without the lying/cheating stuff.

Eli-zor gives great advice and has helped me out as well, but I do disagree with one thing he said. It sounds like your boys are quite young. My opinion is they should NOT be told about your W's behavior at all. They won't understand this, and they will need their mother. Telling them about this will cause unneeded damage to them and your W.


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## calif_hope

Prayers to you and your boys. I agree, leave a bit of the R door open....look, a lot if people can't handle dealing with a loved one with depression for a number of reasons to lengthy to discuss here.

She is in the fog bank far and deep.

Do this, contact her BFF, she seem more stable (her husband asked her to defriend Jason and she did).....tell her that you wanted to let her know your moving towards divorce, can't take 3 in the marriage etc., but you need to slip in your wife's comment about splitting up the boys.

If she is a mother, this will impact her. Infect you need to expose and share this with her family, ASAP!

People in your life may have been soft peddling but your wife is now voicing divorcing a child in a manner. She will get some major blowback on this and when she does she may not (hopefully) recognize her self which can the beginning of the fog lifting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imjustlost

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. 

I thought about contacting her friends again, but I do not think it is worth it. The bff is already kind of on my side, but WW is running in the other direction toward OM for support. 

I honestly do not think the fog will lift UNTIL she goes on that trip in April. That is essentially what started this, and what will hopefully end it. I seriously think she will try to seduce this guy. Her losing weight, looking up horoscopes (forgot about this one til today), romantic things to do...

I think any conscious effort on my part to wake her up will be pointless until she makes this trip. It is her goal and nothing will stand in the way of that. I intend to push her in that direction while I do the 180 and work on myself and ensure my children's well-being.

Looking up keyloggers now...If anyone has any suggestions please pm. Thanks.


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## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> I honestly do not think the fog will lift UNTIL she goes on that trip in April. That is essentially what started this, and what will hopefully end it.


The OM *will *have sex with her! Your are on an emotional roller coaster today, how will you be knowing she is having sex with him. What makes you think she will stop , I have yet to see a PA stop when a husband does not make it extremely difficult for the wayward. 

At a minimum oppose the trip and take steps to lock her out of your life if she does go. 

No disrespect meant but your comments sound like like a previous poster who did the same, failed to take our advice, and let his wife take his van to go to the OM, where are they today? He is paying her and she is still openly SC****ng the OM . One day his kids will be calling the OM daddy . 

PS. HTN this is not meant as an insult


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## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> Thanks everyone for the suggestions.
> 
> I thought about contacting her friends again, but I do not think it is worth it. The bff is already kind of on my side, but WW is running in the other direction toward OM for support.
> 
> I honestly do not think the fog will lift UNTIL she goes on that trip in April. That is essentially what started this, and what will hopefully end it. I seriously think she will try to seduce this guy. Her losing weight, looking up horoscopes (forgot about this one til today), romantic things to do...
> 
> I think any conscious effort on my part to wake her up will be pointless until she makes this trip. It is her goal and nothing will stand in the way of that. I intend to push her in that direction while I do the 180 and work on myself and ensure my children's well-being.
> 
> Looking up keyloggers now...If anyone has any suggestions please pm. Thanks.



Your take on pushing her to go to NY will more than likely be the end of your marriage. I undrstand your logic but that would only happen if he is a flaming [email protected] I would put a lot of money down that that is not the case. I'm guessing him and his roomate are looking forward to a three way. God only knows what kind of freaks they are. 

I've known several gay men and none of them would waste any of their time on something like this. He/they are using the come on that she may be able to actually save him from being completely gay. She didn't come up with the idea to have sex with him on her own without his encouragement.

I'm not saying what I would do but there is no way my wife would beat me to NY.


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## Eli-Zor

> He/they are using the come on that she may be able to actually save him from being completely gay. She didn't come up with the idea to have sex with him on her own without his encouragement.


:iagree:


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## imjustlost

Thanks guys, I'm not taking any of this as insulting. After all, I have no idea what I'm doing in this so all of your advice is valuable. 

I'm allowing her to go because I really do not want to R.
Maybe there is a .1% of me that does...
Hell, I don't know. 180 first.


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## Eli-Zor

> I'm allowing her to go because I really do not want to R.


 Your following twisted logic 

You opposing it will give you more chance of R than supporting it, if she goes you will have every reason to let her feel the the full consequences of her decision. 

If you promised to let her go I suggest you unpromise pronto, there are no ethics when it comes to dealing with a wayward, if there were she would not be cheating.

Do you really think he is not going to have sex with your wife?


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## Almostrecovered

imjustlost said:


> I'm allowing her to go because I really do not want to R.


FWIW I agree with this, plus April is still 4 months away

I say move on and file and get your finances in order. I really think at this point she has to come to you with what she needs to do in order for there to be R. (if you would even want it at that point)


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## imjustlost

Almostrecovered said:


> FWIW I agree with this, plus April is still 4 months away
> 
> I say move on and file and get your finances in order. I really think at this point she has to come to you with what she needs to do in order for there to be R. (if you would even want it at that point)


This is my thinking, at this point I am not talking any R. If she wants to, then I will listen. Me refusing her to go to NYC only makes me lose power. By me pushing her in that direction, I can follow the 180 and she can see me moving on with my life and being happy. 

Not allowing her to go would be me NOT following the 180, and NOT moving on.


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## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> This is my thinking, at this point I am not talking any R. If she wants to, then I will listen. Me refusing her to go to NYC only makes me lose power. By me pushing her in that direction, I can follow the 180 and she can see me moving on with my life and being happy.
> 
> Not allowing her to go would be me NOT following the 180, and NOT moving on.


I see your point, but, if it gets close to her departure, and if her going is a deal breaker, let her know in time for her to consider that.


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## calif_hope

I agree your logic is a bit mixed up, I can understand that it is. 

1. Expose your wife's comment about separating the boys....having others know and it's blow back can jar her out of this fog.
2. You should have already implemented the 180
3. Doing the 180, you limit access to finances
4. WTF....you are allowing her to go in April. IMJUSTLOST...in April you should either be separated with her out if the house, paying her own way, waiting for the final decree if divorce OR working on your reconciliation - how in either circumstance can your "allow her to go".............do you see yourself in this limbo in April and that you would hand her $$$ fir the trip.......your in a bit of the fog yourself and I am sorry you are.

5. Expose her comment, implement the 180, cut her off $$, ask her when she is moving out of house.

Fight for your family or not, which ever us best for you but either way - you can't have both ways. Being in limbo is like cancer......it destroys and poisions, causing damage.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> This is my thinking, at this point I am not talking any R. If she wants to, then I will listen. Me refusing her to go to NYC only makes me lose power. By me pushing her in that direction, I can follow the 180 and she can see me moving on with my life and being happy.
> 
> Not allowing her to go would be me NOT following the 180, and NOT moving on.


Your opposing her going, you can't stop her, she probably will go. Her going to NY with your support will affect any R, it will affect your divorcing her using adultery or mentioning the OM's name , it disallows you from claiming back any monies she used to further her affair.

Your current message is enabling her affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imjustlost

Ok, I need to re-evaluate what I'm doing. Thanks guys...


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## calif_hope

Imjustlost - reevaluate after some rest/sleep, a decent meal, and no booze. What I would suggest is that you take a time out, a retreat, take a couple of days off and take a mental health break. Just get a hotel room, sleep, read, and think. Just tell her you need to getaway from her for a while, no need to tell her were your going. Added value she will have to deal with your kids and house without your support.

You need a break and clear thinking time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

You also need to stop financing the affair. She is a SAhM, where would she get money and free time to go ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

imjustlost said:


> She wanted to split up the boys, she would take the non-autistic child. That killed me the most. For her to say that, man. My heart broke.


Wow. That about says it all, doesn't it? 

Just me, but I could NEVER accept such a person in my life again. In fact, I'd print this out and have it in the lawyer's office tomorrow morning, and ask for 100% custody. Such a person doesn't deserve kids.


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## turnera

imjustlost said:


> I honestly do not think the fog will lift UNTIL she goes on that trip in April. That is essentially what started this, and what will hopefully end it. I seriously think she will try to seduce this guy. Her losing weight, looking up horoscopes (forgot about this one til today), romantic things to do...
> 
> I think any conscious effort on my part to wake her up will be pointless until she makes this trip. It is her goal and nothing will stand in the way of that. I intend to push her in that direction while I do the 180 and work on myself and ensure my children's well-being.


Let's see...in the last year I've seen two different men whose wives wooed a guy long distance, one across the country and the other across the world. Both became convinced they just HAD to see the man in real life to see if 'it' was real.

Both ditched their husbands, kids, AND unhappy families because the lure was too strong. One willingly gave up her kids for good, basically, to go to Australia (I think). That didn't work out.

The other took the family's ONLY CAR and drove to Colorado (I think) to see her man. That didn't work out, either.

And, as far as I recall, neither of those marriages survived. Both times, the husbands felt they just had to let the wife see the OM IRL just to get it out of their system. It all failed.


'Letting' her leave will not get you your wife back; it will only convince you that she's a POS who will go to any lengths to put herself ahead of you and her kids. 

What you need to do right now is get a lawyer to draw up whatever he has to so that, if she DOES go in April, she comes home to NOTHING. You say you don't want R. If that is the truth (which I doubt), then just go ahead and divorce the B. That way, at least YOU won't be paying for her TRIP. And by you 'agreeing' to the trip, you just lost any clout you have in court during divorce proceedings. You've got time on your hands. Do this right.


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## Eli-Zor

" What you need to do right now is get a lawyer to draw up whatever he has to so that, if she DOES go in April, she comes home to NOTHING."

Indeed . He changes the locks and adds abandonment to the list of reasons for seperation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf

turnera said:


> Wow. That about says it all, doesn't it?
> 
> Just me, but I could NEVER accept such a person in my life again. In fact, I'd print this out and have it in the lawyer's office tomorrow morning, and ask for 100% custody. Such a person doesn't deserve kids.


Yes, that is quite a disturbing statement for a mother to make. I would hope it was made in a context of temporary insanity but its still hard to fathom.


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## bestplayer

imjustlost said:


> Thanks guys, I'm not taking any of this as insulting. After all, I have no idea what I'm doing in this so all of your advice is valuable.
> 
> I'm allowing her to go because I really do not want to R.
> Maybe there is a .1% of me that does...
> Hell, I don't know. 180 first.


well , I think if I were at your place I would have once again asked her very clearly that does she really want to ruin her innocent kids lives for this guy ? 
Her answer should tell you what is your next course of action.


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## Chaparral

Shaggy said:


> You also need to stop financing the affair. She is a SAhM, where would she get money and free time to go ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


IJL, you have been advised several times to separate finances. You have never replied to this issue. Why is that? This is one of the most important issues and you seem to be ignoring it. One of the most troubling aspects of this situation is that you are paying for everything she is doing in the affair. Trip, cell phone, internet access etc. Is this just to much Mr. Nice Guy Or what. How can you not say you aren't enabling this addiction? 

Its like she has a death grip on your [email protected] That she is going to NY on your money to see (screw) another man is beyond the realm of possibility to me. What gives? 

Hope I doesn't sound harsh because I don't mean to be. I feel like you are in a daze. You can't be nice when your fighting, what amounts to be,evil> 

I think you should read up here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


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## turnera

bestplayer said:


> well , I think if I were at your place I would have once again asked her very clearly that does she really want to ruin her innocent kids lives for this guy ?
> Her answer should tell you what is your next course of action.


Well, she's already made it quite clear that she doesn't care about the life of the (forgive me, you know I don't mean it, just makikng a point on her perspective) defective child. After all, her husband can HAVE that one. SHE wants the perfect life with the perfect child and the perfect SugarDaddy. Gag me.


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## imjustlost

I have not separated the finances yet.

She volunteered to pay half of our debt and claimed responsibility for half of it. I am not afraid of her taking money out, we agreed the children are our priority and any action to undermine that by taking money out without telling the other person will ruin any chance of us being civil in the future. Her biggest fear right now is me not allowing her to be in the kids lives. She is deathly afraid of that.

I told her last night she needs to start looking for apartments and find a job, so she can pay for her trip. 
She understands that I am not paying for it.

I told her she should go to IC while she is still on my insurance. She will not be on my insurance for much longer. She forgot about this part...

I asked her what she wanted to do with custody since she previously mentioned taking one child. She denied saying that. I asked her how she felt about me taking full custody, she pleaded for 50/50 split custody.

She didn't sleep much last night. When she did lay in bed, she was sobbing.


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## Almostrecovered

reality is starting to sink with her, the question is whether she will do the right thing or suffer from her own consequences


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## Shaggy

Has she ever held a job? Does she understand how expensive insurance +rent + car + trip to NY add up to be?

There is no way she's going to be able split the debt and do all that too.


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## maxter

Be prepared for her to flip flop between reality and fantasy. One day she may be seeing the reality of being single, on her own with the huge responsibility that will entail and the next day she'll switch back into fantasy land mode, denying anything is going on, trying to get you to back off. It will come in waves as her fantasy begins to crack.

My W, probably like yours and many others, didn't factor in all the possibilities and responsibilies that being on her own would require. Like health insurance, car insurance, custody arrangements, working full time, taking on her part of any debts, maintaining her car, home repairs & maintenance, etc.

Keep the pressure on. Keep doing the 180 for yourself & kids. Stay strong.


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## imjustlost

Thanks guys, the strength you guys give me means more than you know.

Doing the 180, and staying strong. She does not see me weak.

She has held a job before. She lived on her own for a few years barely making ends meet, and she hated that life. Now she is facing it all over again and it's beginning to hit her, hard.

Also, last night I asked her where she wanted to live, close to her bff gay friend, close to OM 1000 miles away...

She had tears in her eyes and said no question she wanted to live as close as she can be to the boys...

She also asked me twice specifically about me dating other girls. 
I told her yes, I need to move on so I am going to want someone else in my life.
I did not ask her about dating at all. I didn't care.


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## Chaparral

There is a real world out there.

Do you have any idea how this all got started? I mean, wanting to go to New york to hang with the gay/ bisexual culture is, well, bizarre to me. She's a mom and she wants to hang out with people who in all likely hood, would expose her to some serious(deadly) diseases. Maybe she wants to meet their lesbian friends? 

I am truly sorry for the pain she has caused you. The heartlessness of the waywards on these threads is mind boggeling.
The people that are supposed to have your back are instead plunging a knife in it and twisting as hard as they can.

Hope she takes you up on the IC. Maybe this is getting through to her now.

Don't see how protecting the family funds would hurt the kids though. I guess you trust her more than I would. She seems to be making exrtremely bad decisions. 

Good luck and prayers.


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## warlock07

> She also asked me twice specifically about me dating other girls.
> I told her yes, I need to move on so I am going to want someone else in my life.


I think she is asking it to justify her affair. I am guessing that she will go ahead and have the affair and come back for R apologizing.


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## Eli-Zor

Since your confrontation is your wife aware that R is an option if she agrees to the marital boundaries?

Get yourself a var to protect yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Yea like NC, full transparency and two to five year of really heavy lifting to repair the marriage.


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## Gabriel

Imjustlost - can you answer this question?  If your W did everything imaginable, including cutting OM out and canceling everything and showing true remorse, would you be open to R?

Your 180 is working, which is great. It is hitting her hard right now. This story is making me very, very sad. It's all just so unnecessary. She feels she has lost you, which is good, but because of this, she may feel R is off the table, and thus won't even try now.

Second question. If your answer to my first question is yes, have you/will you tell her this? Because I think if that is your answer, you should. Otherwise, she may just guess you are never going to accept her back.


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## Dadof3

Yea - tell her that you won't accept her back unless she does all of the necessary stuff in a verifiable way and submits to Individual and Marital Counseling. Then find some good counselors. Not all or even half of them are good, but only there to help you separate.

And all of it has to happen NOW, not after a trip to NY.


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## calif_hope

Keep the 180 going........reality is working! Any chance that her local married FBBF is soneone who is willing to help your marriage by having reality as opposed to fantasy conversation with you wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imjustlost

I would absolutely work on R if she agreed to NC, IC/MC. 
Sadly, she will not. 

I just told her, "It's not too late to make this work." 

She replied:
_



"I can't give up my friendships....I lied to you about it and I won't lie to you about it anymore, I just need my friends. that's how I am"

Click to expand...

_I'm just so sad for my boys...

They deserve better...


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## Dadof3

One reply is deserved for this (IMHO) - friends? open marriage proposal (twice), you will take the "healthy child", romantic songs / ovulation calendar during trip to new york to court a gay man? 

Does this sounds like friendship to you? Hope it is worth our marriage.


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## Gabriel

Response:

"Of course you need friends. We all do. But you two have crossed the line and you can't be married and do that. I'm not asking you to choose between your friends and me. I'm asking you to drop an inappropriate relationship with another man. There are plenty of other friends out there."

This topic is really falling into my area of experience now. My WW fell for her long time friend. I am a firm believer that married people should not have close friendships with people of the opposite sex. Casual friendships/acquantances are fine. Couples-to-couples are fine for one wife to also be friends with the other husband. But just one-on-one like this. Never.


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## maxter

WOW! Her reply is painful. I feel for you brother.

How can she give up her children, her husband, her life for a stupid friendship??? Makes no sense


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## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> I would absolutely work on R if she agreed to NC, IC/MC.
> Sadly, she will not.
> 
> I just told her, "It's not too late to make this work."
> 
> She replied:
> 
> 
> I'm just so sad for my boys...
> 
> They deserve better...


Pretty much sums it up. 

She wouldn't contact them again on my dime though. When she got a job she could pay for her own phone etc.


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## imjustlost

Yes, this is the circle we go through every time.

I say just drop one inappropriate friend.
She says he is a happy gay man in a relationship.
I say I'm hurt and think their relationship crossed a line.
She says they were joking around.
I say it hurt and she should end it.
She says she needs "friends" and can't drop one person who has "been there" for her.

Aaaaand repeat circle...


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## imjustlost

maxter said:


> WOW! Her reply is painful. I feel for you brother.
> 
> How can she give up her children, her husband, her life for a stupid friendship??? Makes no sense


Exactly. The coldness of it makes it slightly easier for me to move on. I mean, how do I even begin to process it? How do I explain ti to my kids??? Not now, since they are 5 and 6, but when they understand marriage and compromise...


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## Chaparral

Stop circling now. Read the 180 again. You asked her. If she doesn't come to you you don't talk about relationship again.

If she asks about you dating etc. tell her that is no longer her concern.

18018018018018018018180180

It aint over yet


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## Gabriel

Okay, since you have done this before I have a new response:


"Look, it sounds like you've made your choice. A friendship with one person has become more important to you than your husband and children. Until you change your mind, I'm proceeding with divorce and will go for maximum custody of the children. They don't deserve to live with someone who chose a friend over them, and neither do I. We're worth more than that."


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## maxter

Gabriel said:


> Okay, since you have done this before I have a new response:
> 
> 
> "Look, it sounds like you've made your choice. A friendship with one person has become more important to you than your husband and children. Until you change your mind, I'm proceeding with divorce and will go for maximum custody of the children. They don't deserve to live with someone who chose a friend over them, and neither do I. We're worth more than that."


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Excellant reply!


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## imjustlost

Not discussing any more relationship or future talk. 

180. 

And working on details of her getting out of the house.


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## Unsure in Seattle

Think Gabe is right on the money. Ludicrous that she's picking a fake internet "friendship" over her family.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

stop playing by her rules. you cant win. You have to stop dancing to her song.

ONLY when she feels the consequences of her choices will anything change.

3 quick things....

1. regarding the consequences, they can not YOUR consequences. the have to be THE consequences. 

2. the reason myself and others here are pushing so hard for you to take definitive action is simple human psychology. It's the pleasure principle. People only engage in behaviors for 2 reasons. 1 too gain pleasure, 2 too avoid pain. When a behavior potentially involves both, its a matter of which is stronger. Right now, she is getting unbelievable pleasure from her relatonship with OM (see info re; naturally occuring amphetamines released by brain/drugs/romantic love). The actual and perceived pain she is getting as a result of her action is much lower than the pleasure... you see? why would she stop? She won't. You allow the actual and percieved pain to ratchet up to a level even with or greater than the pleasure, the behavior will naturally STOP. 

Trick is...(see #1) the pain and consequences must be THE not YOUR. 

Do you understand what I mean?

3. Everything that happens and everyday that passes seems like it's absolute and final. This isnt close to over, she will flip flop, you will flip flop, your feelings will change 100 times in the next year... What you feel right now, you wont feel tomorrow... the same applys with her. This ride is just beginning. If you take a deep breath and open your eyes, you will see that there is a steering wheel just outside your reach... This are moving at mock speed in your head... It's scary but you have to lean forward and get your hands on that wheel...


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## imjustlost

Pit of my stomach:

You make too much sense. 
I will look into implementing some pain as a result of THE consequences.


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## DailyGrind

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> 3. Everything that happens and everyday that passes seems like it's absolute and final. This isnt close to over, she will flip flop, you will flip flop, your feelings will change 100 times in the next year... What you feel right now, you wont feel tomorrow... the same applys with her. This ride is just beginning. If you take a deep breath and open your eyes, you will see that there is a steering wheel just outside your reach... This are moving at mock speed in your head... It's scary but you have to lean forward and get your hands on that wheel...


WOW....I need to laminate this! Wonderful analogy!


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## PHTlump

I disagree that IJL needs to contact his wife again. There is no rational argument that will break through his wife's fog. His arguing is just playing her drama game.

The only thing that has a chance of working is the 180 coupled with the real-world consequences of divorce. He needs a lawyer yesterday to advise him. He needs to get her out of the house and to separate their finances.

Stay strong, IJL. I think your best chance (maybe only chance) at reconciliation is for her to snap back to reality before her April trip. For that to happen, she needs to be dropped into reality like you would toss her into the deep end of the swimming pool. Time to sink or swim.

Good luck.


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## turnera

imjustlost said:


> Yes, this is the circle we go through every time.
> 
> I say just drop one inappropriate friend.
> She says he is a happy gay man in a relationship.
> I say I'm hurt and think their relationship crossed a line.
> She says they were joking around.
> I say it hurt and she should end it.
> She says she needs "friends" and can't drop one person who has "been there" for her.
> 
> Aaaaand repeat circle...


You wouldn't be repeating it if you would just reply with "Ok then, I'll see you in court and I'm filing for 100% custody."


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## bryanp

One more time:
1. No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change.
2. If you don't respect yourself then who will?


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## turnera

Can you at least turn off the internet?


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## PHTlump

turnera said:


> You wouldn't be repeating it if you would just reply with "Ok then, I'll see you in court and I'm filing for 100% custody."


Again, I disagree. The wife deserves no warning of what is coming. Let her think she's getting off light. In a contested divorce, knowledge is power.

Also, it feeds her need for drama and power. One of the reasons the 180 is so effective at quashing affairs is because it robs the wayward spouse of the power. She sends you a text, and you don't respond. She sends you another text, and you don't respond. That communicates that you are above her. If she texts and you immediately respond with something along the lines of, "I know you are, but what am I?" you're just playing the game that she wants to play right now. If you take your ball and go home, she can't play anymore.

I think IJL should absolutely fight for primary custody and as little spousal/child support as possible. But his wife should read about that in his legal motions, not from texts or snarky or pleading conversations.


----------



## calif_hope

Yup, I agree.

She is not right in the head, she would rather give up a husband, her family, cause pain and suffering to her boys all fir a friend gay or not.

To me this demonstrated real mental health issues or this guy is not gay or gay guy helping to help cover a different affair partner.

If this story holds this women should not have any custody.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

imjustlost said:


> Pit of my stomach:
> 
> You make too much sense.
> I will look into implementing some pain as a result of THE consequences.


No, I think your still missing what Im saying... You dont implement THE consequences... you _implement_ YOUR consequences. You _allow_ THE consequences to happen. 

Do you understand what I mean about "the vs. your" ?

I also pointed out a few times in my last post the idea of _percieved_ pain and its incredible motivational power in the pleasure principle... Do you understand how that fits in and why you dont have it ?


----------



## calif_hope

Imjustlost

Any chance you can take a couple of days off and take a short overnight or two trip with or without your boys?

A day or two alone with the boys and you or a day or two alone with the boys will give her a glimmer of future.

Have you given her a deadline to leave? What is your timeline to file? Have you told the boys that mana is leaving?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ing

I am not sure who it was that told me this analogy but I will steal it off them anyway 

This is like a dance. You take a step forward. she takes a step back. You take a step back.. It goes on and on. This is normal in a relationship and healthy but your wife is telling you very clearly while she is dancing that she would prefer to be dancing with that guy over there. This is hard to hear.

Leave the dance hall. Just walk out. No more dancing. No more attention, no more love shown, no more anything. Just let it go. Show her what divorce will be like. Show her that you will not be in her life to lean on, to help with problems, to offer the support you have over the years. She is choosing her Internet BF over you and your children. Bizarre I know. 

The 180 is HARD. Letting Go is HARD. All this is really, really hard.

It is your last, best chance though.


----------



## warlock07

Maybe it is an ego thing for her


----------



## imjustlost

At the gym right now. She texted me she wants to talk about cutting communication with OM and disabling her facebook accounts.


----------



## Gabriel

Let her do the talking


----------



## imjustlost

warlock07 said:


> Maybe it is an ego thing for her



Exactly what it is. She mentioned no man is going to tell her what to do...Well guess what. I just did.


----------



## PHTlump

I wouldn't respond yet. Finish your workout. Afterward, you may want to talk to her in person rather than text. In any case, I would simply lay out your demands again, or tell her that you've already told her what you require.

This probably isn't her final position.

Good luck.


----------



## Eli-Zor

imjustlost said:


> At the gym right now. She texted me she wants to talk about cutting communication with OM and disabling her facebook accounts.



Listen , nod , confirm she does so in front of you after she gives you access to her Facebook account and you download his friends list. Do not let her see you do his . She sends him a NC letter in your presence use the template form the newbie thread .

You can either wait to see if he contacts her again or you can expose him at your own pace .

Set your boundaries out. Be firm however while she may be doing all this you are still to continue to 180 and she is to commit to IC . There is no MC until you are certain the affair is over .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gabriel

PHTlump said:


> This probably isn't her final position.
> 
> Good luck.


:iagree:

If I were you I would let her demonstrate what she is going to do. Then I would clearly say I still didn't trust her, and wouldn't for a long time.


----------



## warlock07

Maybe you can rephrase your terms(while not changing them) so that she can save face maybe?


----------



## Dadof3

Just flap your hand at the phone (like a person yapping), finish your workout, and show up in person. 

Just tell her, your boundaries aren't negotiable. It stopped being one when you and her said "I do".


----------



## Gabriel

Here's the thing. Let's say she totally commits to NC, ends the affair and things are "normal". This person needs some serious IC still. Asking for open marriages, wanting the party life in NYC. Time for her to grow up and see a counselor, even if this does all work out.


----------



## Dadof3

Then again, maybe its time to fabricate your own special "friend" for her distaste and displeasure.


----------



## Dadof3

Then you can tell her that your special friend told you that you can't be married to her anymore cause this special friend has some sway in your marriage!


----------



## Shaggy

imjustlost said:


> Exactly what it is. She mentioned no man is going to tell her what to do...Well guess what. I just did.


No you didn't, and next time she says this don't accept it.

You didn't tell her what to do, instead you told her what you were going to do and how she could choose to stop you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gabriel

Dadof3 said:


> Then you can tell her that your special friend told you that you can't be married to her anymore cause this special friend has some sway in your marriage!


NOT this! Don't take this advice. Dad - you've given good advice on this forum but this is a stinker.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Shaggy said:


> No you didn't, and next time she says this don't accept it.
> 
> You didn't tell her what to do, instead you told her what you were going to do and how she could choose to stop you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Dadof3

Gabriel said:


> NOT this! Don't take this advice. Dad - you've given good advice on this forum but this is a stinker.


Gabriel - I said it "tongue in cheek" - not really seriously. I'm trying to mirror back the sheer absurdity (and frustration) I am having with his W. 

Sorry - my brand of humor is off the cuff and typically off the mark!


----------



## Gabriel

Got it


----------



## Chaparral

Dadof3 said:


> Gabriel - I said it "tongue in cheek" - not really seriously. I'm trying to mirror back the sheer absurdity (and frustration) I am having with his W.
> 
> Sorry - my brand of humor is off the cuff and typically off the mark!


It was funny, at least I'm smiling. Partly because wife wants to come around, Of course this isn't the first time.

If they try to hide it again, I'm guessing throw away phone. Time to buy 2 VARs, one for car and at least one for in the house when you are gone. Check purchases for phone or he could mail her one. I hope not. 

If it works out be on your toes. Trust but verify.


----------



## PHTlump

Shaggy said:


> No you didn't, and next time she says this don't accept it.
> 
> You didn't tell her what to do, instead you told her what you were going to do and how she could choose to stop you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly. You can't control her. You can only control yourself. Likewise, she has no control over you.

She is free to carry on with anyone she chooses. And you're free to divorce her for doing it.

Remain steadfastly in control of yourself, and you will find yourself exerting a great deal of influence over your wife.


----------



## imjustlost

Thanks for the laugh Dadof3, of course in jest, it made me laugh.


----------



## Dadof3

PHTlump said:


> Exactly. You can't control her. You can only control yourself. Likewise, she has no control over you.
> 
> She is free to carry on with anyone she chooses. And you're free to divorce her for doing it.
> 
> Remain steadfastly in control of yourself, and you will find yourself exerting a great deal of influence over your wife.


I like the way PHTlump says stuff. 

Find a way to phrase it to use with your W. Hopefully she gets the picture that way.


----------



## imjustlost

Great way to explain it Shaggy. Noted.

PHTLump too, great explanation


----------



## calif_hope

Imjustlost
You wife reminds of my little sister before she grew-up. Growing up, being the oldest I would walk my two sisters to a nearby drug store for ice-cream. Between our home and the store was a playground. Our practice was to play first, get the ice-cream and then home. Playing after getting the ice-cream would often spell disaster.

Well if my sister didn't get enough playtime she would refuse to "allow me" to get her an ice cream. She would do without to make her point that she wanted me to do it her way. She maintained this stubborn and control streak until she lost several wants and friends due to her behavior. She grew up...guess your wife didn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustlost

She is defiant beyond belief.

Yesterday, she initiated a chat conversation with:

Her: hey
Me: what
Her: nm
Me: ???

She didn't get the response she wanted, so like a child, didn't continue the conversation.

Later, when I was at the gym, she asked me if I would let her say goodbye to OM and disable her accounts.

When I got home, we talked and she started crying saying she couldn't do what she said she could. I asked her why.

Her friend that I outed her to was talking with her and was trying to convince my wife to do the right thing, but my wife, being defiant didn't want to strictly because someone else was telling her to. She admitted she didn't like me telling her what to do, because the close friend's husband does that and her close friend is a robot who can't think for herself. 

I told her that I am not telling her what to do. 
I told her, "I am telling you what I am going to do, and you have a choice to stop it." (Thanks Shaggy!).
I repeated that twice and asked if she understood. 
She said she did.

I asked her to not make a decision based on just being defiant.
And reminded her of decisions she has made in the past that were made in defiance.
She admitted her defiance, which may be good?
I asked her to go to IC so maybe she can get neutral perspective.
She agreed without hesitation.

She then tried to lighten the mood and talk about something funny...

I then said that I was thinking about our debt, and for her to not worry about that right now because she needs to focus on how she will pay for her trip and a down-payment on an apartment. 
_Reality rears its ugly head again..._


----------



## calif_hope

It seems to be working - she will continue to test the waters to see if you have weakened your position...good work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

If there was any doubt about this being an EA - you can see in her actions it is fully is.

The friend dumped the OM because she wasn't in an EA. He wasn't important to her.

Your wife however is very deep in the fog. To her it's giving up her hope and desire to connect with this gay man.

She's got to accept ending the relationship with him and go through the full withdrawl of breakup before you're going to see your wife again.


----------



## lordmayhem

Shaggy said:


> *If there was any doubt about this being an EA - you can see in her actions it is fully is.*
> 
> The friend dumped the OM because she wasn't in an EA. He wasn't important to her.
> 
> Your wife however is very deep in the fog. To her it's giving up her hope and desire to connect with this gay man.
> 
> She's got to accept ending the relationship with him and go through the full withdrawl of breakup before you're going to see your wife again.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

And may I add that you do not allow her to say goodbye to OM. That's what the NC letter is for. She just wants to get her fix of the OM.


----------



## imjustlost

I explained to her again last night how this was an EA with OM.
I told her that him telling her that she was beautiful and "hot" made her crave that attention from him.
She sought affirmation and affection from him to make her feel wanted and valued.
She admitted this, saying she liked hearing that from him.
She admitted to me that he told her that he has no feelings for her like that. I could see in her eyes, that she felt vulnerable, and possibly duped by him because of this. 
She kept her eyes to the ground during most of this.

Again, she reiterated that she didn't want to hurt anyone in this, including OM. I assured her that OM will understand, if he is a true friend, he will understand why she is doing this. 

She then tried to lighten the mood with something funny.

Still snooping, I found:
She admitted to her FB friends and one close friend that she did lie to me about talking to him and about the hidden account she made and acknowledged the damage it may have caused. 

Her close friend asked why she is still friends with OM, and she responded with "Because I want to."
He responded, "oh"...

I'm dealing with 35 year old rebellious teenager...Lord help me...


----------



## PHTlump

You're doing great. Just keep to the 180. The 180 says you should believe nothing that your wife says and only half of what she does. Keep everything business. Everything should be about kids, dissolution, and separation. She's still scrambling to keep both of you in her life.

She may not believe you'll divorce her until you hand her the papers to sign. So just keep moving toward that end.

Hopefully, she'll come around. If not, you'll lose some dead weight. Good luck.


----------



## Gabriel

PHTlump said:


> You're doing great. Just keep to the 180. The 180 says you should believe nothing that your wife says and only half of what she does. Keep everything business. Everything should be about kids, dissolution, and separation. She's still scrambling to keep both of you in her life.
> 
> She may not believe you'll divorce her until you hand her the papers to sign. So just keep moving toward that end.
> 
> Hopefully, she'll come around. If not, you'll lose some dead weight. Good luck.


:iagree::iagree:

You are handling this perfectly and increasing the odds of success. The peace I hope you can feel is that she has so far not done anything a normal wayward doesn't do. This is a normal response for someone in her position, and given she hasn't gotten very far with the OM, I am optimistic on this one, actually. But you have to keep working it the way you are for awhile yet. Stay strong - don't cave.


----------



## imjustlost

Thank you guys, it really means a lot. Feeling strong! Staying strong!


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

You know I'm rooting for you but....

In your heart of hearts, Do you _really_ think she wont repeat this behavior? She is showing clearly exactly what she is made of. Im sorry and I mean no offense saying that it's ugly. really ugly.

_Character, like a kettle, once mended, always requires repairs.
~proverb_

What happens when its a man that fully reciprocates?. You having an impossible time seperating her from a _gay_ man, in a commited relationship, 1000+ miles away, with her friends pressing her to wake up and the potential of losing her family staring her in the face. Her excuse, it's the principle of it?


----------



## bryanp

I have to ask if you truly want to spend the rest of your life with a wife who has a teenage mindset? It seems much too draining to forever be dealing with this type of mentality and attitude. Nevertheless I wish you luck.


----------



## imjustlost

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> You know I'm rooting for you but....
> 
> In your heart of hearts, Do you _really_ think she wont repeat this behavior? She is showing clearly exactly what she is made of. Im sorry and I mean no offense saying that it's ugly. really ugly.
> 
> _Character, like a kettle, once mended, always requires repairs.
> ~proverb_
> 
> What happens when its a man that fully reciprocates?. You having an impossible time seperating her from a _gay_ man, in a commited relationship, 1000+ miles away, with her friends pressing her to wake up and the potential of losing her family staring her in the face. Her excuse, it's the principle of it?


This is partly why I am so comfortable moving on.

And I told her this in the beginning, what if this guy wasn't gay??

What if he lived next door?

What then?

She said, "well he doesn't."

She told me that there would have never been an OM if we worked on our problems and she didn't feel unloved.

I explained to her that if she had a problem she should have come straight to me, not outside, to someone else.


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

Good for you- don't let her blame-shift.

Keep it up-


----------



## lordmayhem

imjustlost said:


> She told me that there would have never been an OM if we worked on our problems and she didn't feel unloved.
> 
> I explained to her that if she had a problem she should have come straight to me, not outside, to someone else.


:iagree:

Good job on not allowing her to blameshift the affair on to you. NEVER accept responsiblity for her actions. You are only responsible for 50% of the state of the marriage prior to the affair. She was 100% responsible for the cheating. She could have communicated the problems to you, insist on marriage counseling, or leave the marriage. Instead she chose to go outside the marriage. There is absolutely never any excuse for cheating, emotional or physical.


----------



## dymo

PHTlump said:


> You're doing great. Just keep to the 180. The 180 says you should believe nothing that your wife says and only half of what she does. Keep everything business.


I'm not sure the 180 actually says that. That said, he's right that you should be paying attention to actions, not words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> You know I'm rooting for you but....
> 
> In your heart of hearts, Do you _really_ think she wont repeat this behavior? She is showing clearly exactly what she is made of. Im sorry and I mean no offense saying that it's ugly. really ugly.
> 
> _Character, like a kettle, once mended, always requires repairs.
> ~proverb_
> 
> What happens when its a man that fully reciprocates?. You having an impossible time seperating her from a _gay_ man, in a commited relationship, 1000+ miles away, with her friends pressing her to wake up and the potential of losing her family staring her in the face. Her excuse, it's the principle of it?


This is how I exactly feel. even if he fixes this, this won't be the end of it. She is acting like a teenager.


----------



## SadSamIAm

She really is like a teenager.

She won't stop talking to the OM because people are telling her to stop. I bet the opposite is true, that if he told her he really wanted her, she wouldn't be as attracted to him. 

Sounds like she is the perfect person for the 180 to work against. The more you show you don't need her or want her, the more she will want you.


----------



## PHTlump

dymo said:


> PHTlump said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're doing great. Just keep to the 180. The 180 says you should believe nothing that your wife says and only half of what she does. Keep everything business.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure the 180 actually says that. That said, he's right that you should be paying attention to actions, not words.
Click to expand...

It actually does.


Marriage Busters 180 list said:


> 32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared.


----------



## Beowulf

warlock07 said:


> This is how I exactly feel. even if he fixes this, this won't be the end of it. She is acting like a teenager.


I wouldn't accept R unless she goes to IC and gets some serious help. This will happen again.


----------



## ing

her boundaries were probably not as strong as if he were local.
Gay man
Long way a way.

I wouldn't write her off as a serial cheater just yet

At some point you became her Father replacement. That is why she is acting like a rebellious teenager and not understanding that your love is conditional.


----------



## imjustlost

I am pushing for divorce rigt now with no R. She was chatting with him all day like nothing else in the world is going on...I am moving on.

Talked to a lawyer today. We agree on joint custody, I take the house and she takes the car. I need to ask her about her job leads.


----------



## Dadof3

I wouldn't ask her. Too much info for a 180. Just tell her at what point she has to support herself and pay 50% of joint expenses till D. 

Don't make life easy on her. Don't even offer to take care of all of debt. She's made her bed. Let her lie in it now.


----------



## Gabriel

Wait a minute. Are you serious? She was chatting with him all day TODAY? How did you find out? 

Yeah, if this is true, I think you gave this enough and it is time to move on. WOW. So disappointing. This news is tough to hear, man.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

*Re: [UPDATE] Ultimatum day. Enough is enough...*



imjustlost said:


> Update on page 2
> 
> Story here:
> Click Here for my story
> 
> tl;dr: wife of 7 years, mother of two boys is online flirting (like, thinking of him on our anniversary, posting "love" songs on his facebook wall) with committed gay man, makes me feel guilty for me demanding a no-contact. Says I'm insecure.
> 
> Tonight I'm going to tell her I want a NC with this guy, or we go our separate ways. We enter marriage counseling as well. She has already refused both of these, so I am expecting a refusal again...
> 
> I won't yell, won't argue and be calm.
> 
> Why do I feel guilty??? Is a NC warranted???


NC is absolutely warranted. She either stops or she can find herself served with divorce papers.

You shouldn't feel guilty at all. She either respects the marriage(which its already too late), or she ceases to be married.

But do you really want to be married to someone that has it for another man? If she goes NC its only because you had to tell her.

Therefore, if it were me, I'd divorce her since its clear she doesn't want to end it. Hell, I'd divorce her even if she did end it.


----------



## Gabriel

Dex you are VERY late to this party.


----------



## Dexter Morgan

imjustlost said:


> I am pushing for divorce rigt now with no R. She was chatting with him all day like nothing else in the world is going on...I am moving on.
> 
> Talked to a lawyer today. We agree on joint custody, I take the house and she takes the car. I need to ask her about her job leads.


If you both have a lawyer, don't bank on it being this easy. If her lawyer is smart he/she will tell your stbXwife that you owe her half the equity in the house.


----------



## imjustlost

Gabriel said:


> Wait a minute. Are you serious? She was chatting with him all day TODAY? How did you find out?
> 
> Yeah, if this is true, I think you gave this enough and it is time to move on. WOW. So disappointing. This news is tough to hear, man.


My android app that sniffs facebook accounts. If she never logs out, I can access it from anywhere. They spoke about talking tonight too, she probably can't wait.

EDIT: android app name is faceniff.


----------



## imjustlost

Dexter Morgan said:


> If you both have a lawyer, don't bank on it being this easy. If her lawyer is smart he/she will tell your stbXwife that you owe her half the equity in the house.


We have less than a year of equity...I just bought this house for us in May. The house I told her I wanted to grow old in together...


----------



## Gabriel

Can you divulge some of the things she said?


----------



## TDSC60

I have seen stories about some really messed up individuals on this site. 

I think this woman makes the top five in the "Most Unbelievable" category.

Run away and never look back.


----------



## Chaparral

Have you told her parents you are filing for divorce and given them details?


----------



## Eli-Zor

Do you have a plan? Much of the following has been mentioned before.


Run the 180 – firm this up, you’re not in full 180 mode.
Load a Key logger.
Buy a VAR and have in on you when you engage with your wife.
Expose her affair to her parents, siblings and good friends.
Expose the OM to his SO, friends and family.
Cut off the internet access.
Cut her phone off.
File for legal separation or D using adultery as the reason.
Within a separation agreement have a morality clause to protect your children from the OM.
Separate the finances.
Prevent her from spending family monies on her affair or its tools.
If she does not cease the affair have her move out.
Go to the doctor and explain your situation, you will require some assistance in coping with the stress this is going to cause.

Correct your previous tacit agreement of her going to NY; state clearly that you do NOT agree with her committing adultery and travelling to NY.

It is the package of steps that has the impact on an affair and the wayward not selectively choosing a couple of items.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## imjustlost

chapparal said:


> Have you told her parents you are filing for divorce and given them details?


I have told her mother I'm divorcing her, and revealed some of the details, and she is pissed off at her daughter. She even told her daughter, WW, "You will not find a better man than him."

Anyway, I'm just over it. My plan? Divorce her. If she asks for R, I am going to tell her that it's too late. I'm moving on. I refuse to waste any more time or emotional energy in her. It's a lost cause. My boys deserve better and so do I.


----------



## Chaparral

She is not convinced you are serious. Ask her mother if she will take her in. She is still living in Never Never Land.


----------



## imjustlost

chapparal said:


> She is not convinced you are serious. Ask her mother if she will take her in. She is still living in Never Never Land.


Brother, I do not care at this point whether she thinks I'm serious or not.


----------



## dymo

How is it that she can still say their "just friends"? Did you ever bring up the google searches?


----------



## imjustlost

dymo said:


> How is it that she can still say their "just friends"? Did you ever bring up the google searches?


Yes I brought them up.

She never had an explanation for the "romantic things to do"

She told me the "menstrual calendar" was so she could see if she was on her period for a trip we were taking in December...Riiiight.

"Songs about secret love" was for a friend who was having an affair...Riiiiight.

To this day she says they are friends. That's great. She's going to need him after I divorce her and reality hits her in the face!


----------



## Dadof3

The only other tact that I think might succeed here (I know someone that this worked for!) is to put yourself in the middle of the two. 

Make him your friend and tell your W that if he's good enough for her, he's good enough to be your friend, and you demand equal time with him. 

Nothing is more deflating in this situation when when the "exclusion" factor is taken away.

Proceed at your own risk though. This is a tough tact to take.


----------



## calif_hope

Sending 'secret love' songs for a friend who is having and affair........wow, I wonder what affair support the friend gave your wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dexter Morgan

imjustlost said:


> We have less than a year of equity...I just bought this house for us in May. The house I told her I wanted to grow old in together...


That being the case it makes sense.


----------



## Beowulf

imjustlost said:


> To this day she says they are friends. That's great. She's going to need him after I divorce her and reality hits her in the face!


You keep that mind set up and you will be all right regardless of what happens. :smthumbup:


----------



## Gabriel

Dadof3 said:


> The only other tact that I think might succeed here (I know someone that this worked for!) is to put yourself in the middle of the two.
> 
> Make him your friend and tell your W that if he's good enough for her, he's good enough to be your friend, and you demand equal time with him.
> 
> Nothing is more deflating in this situation when when the "exclusion" factor is taken away.
> 
> Proceed at your own risk though. This is a tough tact to take.


I don't want to pick on you Dad, but he's too late for this. He's already talked to the OM and it is already adversarial between them.


----------



## Chaparral

Gabriel said:


> I don't want to pick on you Dad, but he's too late for this. He's already talked to the OM and it is already adversarial between them.


LOL Of course, he could email OM and tell him he's sending her and their four kids up there to live with him. And the MIL too.


----------



## Dadof3

Gab: Pick away. I can take it!


----------



## lordmayhem

imjustlost said:


> "Songs about secret love" was for a friend who was having an affair...Riiiiight.


That's SO very similar to what happened to me in my first marriage. Long before email and the internet, I came home to find a love letter that she had written, in her own handwriting, to the OM. She claimed she wrote the love letter for her friend to this OM. :rofl:

Riiiiiight.


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

The love letter (the torrid sex letter, actually) in long hand I found was written for "practice." 

Huh.


----------



## imjustlost

She did hand write him a letter because she was afraid I was spying. I would pay a lot of money to see what that contained...


----------



## Gabriel

Wow, she really is a junkie with this guy. She needs a freaking rehab facility.


----------



## imjustlost

She approached me last night about helping me pay off debt while she lives in my house. She was under the assumption that she could live here for about 10 months until she helped me pay off debt.

(LOL)

This morning I sat down and split expenses, calculated her expenses when she moves out and how much she would be making at $8 an hour.

A full-time job at $8 an hour would be $500 a month SHORT of what she needs to stay afloat. 
I told her she needs to figure out how she's going to live on her own before she starts helping me with debt.

Reality is starting to hit her in the face.


----------



## Chaparral

Thought about this last night. About who she is going to visit in April, she is going to have to be tested for stds so she doesn't infect your boys. Can't remember how long HIV test takes but OPs have said results take a coulple of months. Anyone know. 

How do you let someone around your kids that might have been infected with HIV?


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## Shaggy

imjustlost said:


> Reality is starting to hit her in the face.


Just wait, I'm sure OM will be advising her that she can get you to pay for everything.


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## maxter

Shaggy said:


> Just wait, I'm sure OM will be advising her that she can get you to pay for everything.


Ahh, there's the rub! When she finally gets around to seeing a lawyer, he will advise her to file for spousal support (temporary alimony). Most likely you are filing for an uncontested divorce (no fault) and not a contested divorce (due to infidelity) because an EA doesn't qualify in court as an affair. So she will file against you for support to make up the difference between her $8/hr job and what she needs to live on. In my state there are formulas that determine the amount of support based on percentage of gross income after taxes. In a situation like yours with a SAHM, she will make out OK while you may end up struggling. It's not fair, I know. But the courts are setup to look out for the wellbeing of both parties (and children) regardless of what split you two up or who was at fault.

The only thing that may help in this type of situation is if she had prior gainful employment (>$8/hr) or has an educational background that increases her earning potential. If she has a college degree and experience that can get her a $40k per year job for example, then she just can't sit back and work part time for $8/hr and have you support her with alimony.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Predict... She's about to pull out the big guns.

Maybe first she tries to call down her best Female powers, Manipulation +10

But at some point, you don't fold...

Her head will spin around, she will become uber nasty super b*tch.


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## imjustlost

Florida is a no-fault state. We agree on splitting assets and custody, and she is not seeking alimony or child support.

We will most likely do the divorce ourselves and pay a lawyer only to make sure our paperwork is correct.


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## Shaggy

imjustlost said:


> Florida is a no-fault state. We agree on splitting assets and custody, and she is not seeking alimony or child support.


Yet.

As you said she is just now facing reality.


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## imjustlost

Shaggy said:


> Yet.
> 
> As you said she is just now facing reality.


Yeah, I think we can keep it civil. She may not like it, but that is the reality, and I'm only trying to make her see that reality. I explained it to her that way. 

I said, "Maybe you didn't fully realize the gravity of your choice, so that's why I'm doing this. You need to face the reality of your choice. I don't hate you, but I can't move on with my life with you living in my house."


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## imjustlost

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Predict... She's about to pull out the big guns.
> 
> Maybe first she tries to call down her best Female powers, Manipulation +10
> 
> But at some point, you don't fold...
> 
> Her head will spin around, she will become uber nasty super b*tch.


That made me laugh. Manipulation +10


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## Shaggy

imjustlost said:


> Yeah, I think we can keep it civil. She may not like it, but that is the reality, and I'm only trying to make her see that reality. I explained it to her that way.
> 
> I said, "Maybe you didn't fully realize the gravity of your choice, so that's why I'm doing this. You need to face the reality of your choice. I don't hate you, but I can't move on with my life with you living in my house."


You sir are in a bit of a fog - you are expecting her to react with reason when presented with reality.

This is a woman who is agree to accept divorce from her husband in exchange for being able to run off to NY to be with her GAY EA partner whom she has romantic dreams of converting.

She's so freaking far from reality that she couldn't tell you what color the sky you see above your head today is.

I'm just warning you that you need to be prepared with how to respond when this gets unpleasant. You need to figure out what you will do when she takes the nasty turn. You don't have to go there first, but you do need to be prepared with how you will respond to it.


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## Gabriel

:iagree::iagree:

I think she still thinks either

1) hubby won't really pull the trigger on this at crunch time, or
2) I'm going to plow through this dammit to hell because I won't give in to anybody, especially HIM.


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## calif_hope

Imjustlost, if she goes on any sort of public assistance and she has the kids 50% if the time, it is likely the State of Florida will establish a child support order.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## strugglinghusband

calif_hope said:


> Imjustlost, if she goes on any sort of public assistance and she has the kids 50% if the time, it is likely the State of Florida will establish a child support order.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So important that if you do split, you get primary custody of the kid(s) otherwise look the effe out about child support....

Do it fast, before she change her mind, if she gets a Atty or her O/M advices her different you could be in for very expsensive wild ride.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Hey brother... If you wanna chat re; Florida divorce specifics, message me. I just went through it, and read about it until my eyes bled. Not much I dont know.


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## Gabriel

Any update, lost?


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## spudster

Hey Lost, are you still around? What's happening?


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## imjustlost

Update:

Not much has changed, if at all.
Still getting divorced and she is still talking to this guy.
She DID find a part-time job that she starts in a few weeks. 
Unfortunately the job will not be enough for her to move out, she has another interview next week for another job.
She is still in the house.
She sleeps in my son's room and I sleep in the master bedroom.
She still agrees to me getting the house, her getting the car and joint custody.
I'm still doing the 180, though now feels like a permanent 180.


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## ing

imjustlost said:


> Update:
> 
> Not much has changed, if at all.
> Still getting divorced and she is still talking to this guy.
> She DID find a part-time job that she starts in a few weeks.
> Unfortunately the job will not be enough for her to move out, she has another interview next week for another job.
> She is still in the house.
> She sleeps in my son's room and I sleep in the master bedroom.
> She still agrees to me getting the house, her getting the car and joint custody.
> I'm still doing the 180, though now feels like a permanent 180.


Her saying you can have the house is going to change when she realises what that means.. At the moment she is deep in the FOG. I really hope you are not paying for her Internet and phone?
You have split the money up. Right?
She is not being your friend. Withdraw all support you would normally give her as a husband, Do your own washing, cooking. You are living in a share house with someone who pretty much hates you right now.


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## imjustlost

Update:

She is still in the house, saving up to move out. She found a job and is looking for another though neither are potentially careers and will not support her moving out quickly. She went on her "trip" and her "boyfriend" didn't even save up enough to meet her, so it was all for naught. That is what she told me, so who knows if she is telling the truth or not. Regardless, I couldn't care less, but thought it funny considering what she just threw away for this guy. 

She seems miserable, always negative while I'm doing great. Really. I'm optimistic, happy and enjoying time with friends and my kids. I'm trying to make it easy on them; so far (and as far as I know), the only thing they notice is that we no longer sleep in the same beds and affection with her is unchanged (it's always been nonexistent). 

I'm talking to a few women strictly as friends, and that has helped immensely. I let them know that I'm not looking to hook up or get involved in anything so we just go out and doing things we like to do and have a great time. It's funny how they all comment on how crazy she is to let me go.

When I look at her now, I feel like I don't recognize her. It's strange, I see her now as someone who never matured into an adult, and I think it's sad. Some small part of me thinks maybe I failed as a husband in helping her mature. Though, I accept that I can't fix everything and not every problem is my own.

Looking back, I am confident I made the right decision; I'm truly happy and optimistic looking toward the future.


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## Gabriel

Good for you, lost. I'm very glad you came back to provide an update. Too many times these endings of stories go untold.

Sounds like you are on the right path. Focusing on your kids is paramount. This will eventually be very hard for them.


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## keko

Would you consider R if she started begging you for forgiveness?


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## imjustlost

keko said:


> Would you consider R if she started begging you for forgiveness?


No. No chance at all.


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## Gabriel

imjustlost said:


> No. No chance at all.


That's fine, but be prepared for this possibility. Once divorce papers hit her hands, the reality may set in and she'll go, "What the hell am I doing?" It's very possible she could try to run back to you at that point, especially if she is at a desperate point.


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## Chaparral

imjustlost said:


> Update:
> 
> She is still in the house, saving up to move out. She found a job and is looking for another though neither are potentially careers and will not support her moving out quickly. She went on her "trip" and her "boyfriend" didn't even save up enough to meet her, so it was all for naught. That is what she told me, so who knows if she is telling the truth or not. Regardless, I couldn't care less, but thought it funny considering what she just threw away for this guy.
> 
> She seems miserable, always negative while I'm doing great. Really. I'm optimistic, happy and enjoying time with friends and my kids. I'm trying to make it easy on them; so far (and as far as I know), the only thing they notice is that we no longer sleep in the same beds and affection with her is unchanged (it's always been nonexistent).
> 
> I'm talking to a few women strictly as friends, and that has helped immensely. I let them know that I'm not looking to hook up or get involved in anything so we just go out and doing things we like to do and have a great time. It's funny how they all comment on how crazy she is to let me go.
> 
> When I look at her now, I feel like I don't recognize her. It's strange, I see her now as someone who never matured into an adult, and I think it's sad. Some small part of me thinks maybe I failed as a husband in helping her mature. Though, I accept that I can't fix everything and not every problem is my own.
> 
> Looking back, I am confident I made the right decision; I'm truly happy and optimistic looking toward the future.


Thanks for the update. Thsi was one of the worst cases I've seen here. Your wife seemed to care not at all. I'v e really thought of you all quite often. I really believed she would wake up and want to make her family work. I don't remember her having no affection for you. If I had known that I doubt I would have encourtaged you to save your marriage.

Are you going to try and get primary custody? You sound like an excellent dad. I hope you find someone who can be a loving wife and give your kids a role model for how a wife/mother should be.

I also feel sorry for your wife, she seems to have little chance for happiness.


Good luck and prayers

Chap


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## northland

imjustlost said:


> I'm still doing the 180, though now feels like a permanent 180.


You seem to have come quite a ways since you started this thread and when you wrote the post quoted abouve a short 3 months ago, and I figure by now you realize that the 180 IS designed as a permanent strategy although sometimes things do turn around but that's not why it's implemented..?


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## TDSC60

imjustlost said:


> Some small part of me thinks maybe I failed as a husband in helping her mature. Though, I accept that I can't fix everything and not every problem is my own.
> 
> Looking back, I am confident I made the right decision; I'm truly happy and optimistic looking toward the future.


Yes you made the right decision. You tried everything you could to get her to see reality.

Put that small part that thinks it is some how a failure by you out of your head. A marriage matures or it doesn't. She didn't come along for the ride. Nothing you could have done about that just like there was nothing you could do to stop her from self destructing.


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## lovelygirl

imjustlost said:


> Some small part of me thinks maybe I failed as a husband in helping her mature. .


It wasn't your job to help her mature. You can't fix her.
You're not her parent.


Maybe she'll mature after she realizes what she lost when she divorces you.


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## bandit.45

Good job brother. 

The 180 conquers again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Cro-Magnon

I hope everything turned out OK for imjustlost...


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