# Wife has cheated again .. and begging for forgiveness .. pls help



## Trying to KCCO

Not really sure what/how to do this but looking to vent and gains some advice and perspective.

My wife of 9 years (together since high school so 17yrs) started down some slippery slopes about 2 years ago ... getting too friendly with my old highschool boyfriends on facebook, then texting my friends, then colleagues and people at her work (hotel). It progressed to emotional cheating and she was caught. We've been in therapy for a while and not once has she ever wanted out ... always begging me to stay and not 'kick' her out. 

We stayed in therapy - and it turned into me being blamed for most of the issues ... insecurity and controlling behaviours on my end (like checking her cell phone periodically, etc, nothing stalker-esque). And overall the past 6 months have been OK, not great but OK.

Last week I started sensing more distance and more rebellious behaviour on her end (password protecting her phone, not wearing wedding rings because she's going to gym more frequently) and I finally checked up again and found she has cheated (physically) this time with a guy from the gym.

We have 2 small children (girl 8, boy 6) and I am totally conflicted ... for the past week she's beggin and saying all the right things and I do believe she doesn't want to leave the family and wants to work her problems out (previous abuses as a child perhaps or who knows) and for the sake of not taking 2 kids from their mother (I am the primary caregiver, meals, homework, activities, bread-winner, etc) I just don't know what to do ...

It is so comfortable to just be with her, touch her and be ok, but I also can't erase the image of her with someone else (even if she was emotionally detached and never wanted to end her marriage). I have never thought of straying but I am now thinking that in order to stay I have to enjoy my own life and check out from her ... I also don't want to just have sex with her and close off feelings but if I don't I end up thinking about her being with another.

Way more to the story but not sure how much to keep sharing ... man .. I'm very confused, looking for any advice from those that have reconciled and if any zebras have ever changed their stripes ... please help


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## CH

Never give a cheater a 2nd chance ever. If they didn't learn the 1st time, they most likely will never learn.

And giving a 2nd chance = if I cheat again they'll just keep taking me back.

File and move on IMO.


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## thunderstruck

I'm pro-marriage, especially when there are kids at home, but, F**K, two affairs in two years? Go see a lawyer ASAP to learn your rights.


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## bandit.45

File. She has no remorse. Just scared of losing her meal ticket.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

thunderstruck said:


> I'm pro-marriage, especially when there are kids at home, but, F**K, two affairs in two years? Go see a lawyer ASAP to learn your rights.


Separate finances NOW don't tell her get 2 vars 1 on you 1 in the house to protect you from a potential tro temp restraining order.


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## Unsure in Seattle

Quit accepting the blame shifting, as well.


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## Sara8

Trying to KCCO said:


> It is so comfortable to just be with her, touch her and be ok, but I also can't erase the image of her with someone else (even if she was emotionally detached and never wanted to end her marriage). I have never thought of straying but I am now thinking that in order to stay I have to enjoy my own life and check out from her ... I also don't want to just have sex with her and close off feelings but if I don't I end up thinking about her being with another.
> 
> Way more to the story but not sure how much to keep sharing ... man .. I'm very confused, looking for any advice from those that have reconciled and if any zebras have ever changed their stripes ... please help


Your wife is a serial cheater. Sadly a majority of cheaters will cheat again, some time during the marriage after being forgiven by the loyal spouse. 

You see it time and time again here on TAM. 

I am sorry you are here. 

But the fact that she cheated again, is not a good thing, and indicates more may follow. She also is blameshifting rather than accepting responsibility for her sleazy ways. You know that right.


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## PHTlump

Trying to KCCO said:


> We stayed in therapy - and it turned into me being blamed for most of the issues ... insecurity and controlling behaviours on my end (like checking her cell phone periodically, etc, nothing stalker-esque). And overall the past 6 months have been OK, not great but OK.


That's not uncommon. Counselors, especially women counselors, can have a default setting of blaming husbands for marital problems. Now, I am a believer that a betrayed spouse can be partially responsible for marital problems that leave the marriage vulnerable to infidelity. But, that is very different from saying that you caused your wife to cheat.



Trying to KCCO said:


> Last week I started sensing more distance and more rebellious behaviour on her end (password protecting her phone, not wearing wedding rings because she's going to gym more frequently) and I finally checked up again and found she has cheated (physically) this time with a guy from the gym.


You controlling bastard. You didn't give her the freedom she wanted to screw random guys? I'm sure your counselor would not approve. But, this is also not uncommon.

When infidelity becomes an issue, the most effective strategy for ending it is by going nuclear. Not by threats or counseling, but by kicking her out and giving her a glimpse of life without you. It's been said many times here that you can't "nice" someone out of an affair.



Trying to KCCO said:


> We have 2 small children (girl 8, boy 6) and I am totally conflicted ... for the past week she's beggin and saying all the right things and I do believe she doesn't want to leave the family and wants to work her problems out (previous abuses as a child perhaps or who knows) and for the sake of not taking 2 kids from their mother (I am the primary caregiver, meals, homework, activities, bread-winner, etc) I just don't know what to do ...


I'm sure she doesn't want to lose you. She didn't want to lose you before. It seems that she wants you as a babysitter/paycheck while she is dating other men. That's a great situation for her. It's not so good for you.



Trying to KCCO said:


> Way more to the story but not sure how much to keep sharing ... man .. I'm very confused, looking for any advice from those that have reconciled and if any zebras have ever changed their stripes ... please help


I think that cheaters can reform. But, you need to shock her back to reality. If I were you, I would file for divorce. That doesn't mean you have to go through with it. But it will get her attention. If she comes to you and says she doesn't want it, remain noncommittal, but tell her that you might be persuaded to stay married. But she will have to do the heavy lifting.

That means finding a different counselor, who will put the blame for her cheating on her and help her deal with it. That means she also has to be completely transparent with you. You have access to her cell phone, email, Facebook, etc. any time you want. You should also keep tabs on her. Put keylogger software on her computer so that you can be confident she's not deleting emails, or using a secret account. Put a voice-activated recorder under the seat of her car so that you can hear her private conversations.

A divorce will take many months to finalize. If, during that time, she changes her behavior and convinces you that she will recommit to you, then call it off and stay married. If she doesn't, just go through with it. But just getting angry and insisting on twice as many counseling sessions as last time will be interpreted as weakness, which she will interpret as license for her to continue cheating.

Also, implement the 180. The 180 will help you emotionally detach from her. This will let you focus on yourself more, which will be healthy for you. It will also make divorce easier for you, if it comes to that. And sometimes, the 180 can show a person that they are losing their spouse and cause them to recommit.
The Healing Heart: The 180

Good luck.


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## Trying to KCCO

It's a bad spot ... man oh man ... beyond all this we do live in a nice neighbourhood but are stretched (as are most) .. no way to keep the kids in the same school and house for very long and just wonder if a marriage that is bad for me personally isn't best for the kids. It's not like I HATE her at this moment, but I hate how she's made me feel and now I'm the one forced to make the next move and hurt the kids ...


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## tom67

Trying to KCCO said:


> It's a bad spot ... man oh man ... beyond all this we do live in a nice neighbourhood but are stretched (as are most) .. no way to keep the kids in the same school and house for very long and just wonder if a marriage that is bad for me personally isn't best for the kids. It's not like I HATE her at this moment, but I hate how she's made me feel and now I'm the one forced to make the next move and hurt the kids ...


No SHE hurt the kids by cheating! You can file tell her the m is on hold right now and have her prove it with actions. How did you catch her?


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## Gabriel

Most here will be quick to tell you to file for D. Sounds like you want to stay with her, however, given your tone.

You may want to try what they call The 180, which helps you get emotionally independent. Someone will surely post the link to it here.

From what you are saying, it sounds like your wife is totally taking you for granted. In relationships where the husband is doing most of the work inside and outside of the house, there is imbalance that the wife begins to get used to, and then expect. Once at that point, your wife thought to herself that she can push it even further.

See, she is used to having things handed to her - money, chores, etc. You have become a husband of convenience. You need to scare the living daylights out of her, like, for reals, or she will just do this again in a year.


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## bandit.45

Trying to KCCO said:


> It's a bad spot ... man oh man ... beyond all this we do live in a nice neighbourhood but are stretched (as are most) .. no way to keep the kids in the same school and house for very long and just wonder if a marriage that is bad for me personally isn't best for the kids. It's not like I HATE her at this moment, but I hate how she's made me feel and now I'm the one forced to make the next move and hurt the kids ...


Then either let her continue to cuckold you and humiliate you, which she will, or settle on an open marriage where you both cheat on each other.

Nice example for your children......


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## Acabado

> I am the primary caregiver, meals, homework, activities, bread-winner


So she spends the day facebooking, hitting the gym... and cheating on you, repeatedly. Nice deal.
While I get my doks in a row (lawyer up yesterday to find where you stand) and detach emotionaly (180), I'd demand her to get a job ASAP. Also kicking her out to her parents (with previous exposure) is in order.

Don't accept any inch of blame for your wife's escapades, she's damaged, she has to fix herself. IC, church, whatever. Nothing you did or didn't or told has anything to do with her being a liar and a cheater. Do you think any of her shortcomings can make you do go against your core values, steal, do drugs or beat your children? She's the damaged one.

Man, man. What's wrong whith her?

I'm so sorry.


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## crossbar

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice...... you know the rest.

Dude, you caught her the first time with an EA and you stopped it. Went to counseling and got blamed by probably her and the counselor stating that YOUR behavior was the reason why she did what she did (which is bullsh*t by the way....).

THEN, she up'd her game and had a PA with someone. She GAVE herself to another man. She given something that was promised to you and ONLY you on your wedding day and freely gave it to someone else. So, this time, definately NOT YOUR FAULT!!!! She made the choice to cheat. Nothing you did. You didn't asked to be treated like that. She just did it.

This is the second time this happened. I think you deserve more than that. There are plenty of girls in the world that would never think about cheating with a man that they truely love.


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## bandit.45

Lots and lots of women out there looking for a good, decent hardworking guy like you brother. The fact that you're a father makes you more desirable. 

Don't sell yourself short by staying with someone who has little love and zero respect for you.


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## CleanJerkSnatch

The people have spoken...


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## Shaggy

What about the guy she cheated with his he married or have a gf? Have your wife write a confession outing the guy too and send it to the wife/gf.

I bet your wife won't want to betray the OM so you'll see her true loyalty is to him and not to you, that her chains to do anything it takes, only extend to doing the minimum so that you will take her back, go back to providing everything and asking nothing in return.

The therapist should give you a full refund. Especially for pressuring you to stop checking up on your wife. She has now proven through her actions and choices that she cannot be trusted. That anyone with her must constantly check up on her because she is a serial cheater

Cut off all funding to her, no more credit cards, no more joint bank accounts.


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## regretful wife

Well, as a WW, I knew a few things about my marriage:

One, it is the most important thing to me. More important than my friends and having fun with them. More important than entertaining delusional fantasies. 
On my priority list, my marriage is #1. 
Where is it on your wife's?

Secondly, I know there are no second chances. 
Hubby trusted me to hold his heart. And sadly, that is why it broken. Because I dropped it. 
I destroyed my poor hubby, beating his heart into the ground. 
Now, he could have divorced me and picked it up and put his shattered heart back together alone, or he could let me help him. And I am thankful everyday he lets me help him. 
But for him to trust me with it again, to the same degree he did before? I don't doubt that it will tke years. But I don't blame him. I accept it, because it is my fault. 
This wife has already dropped your heart twice. You really want to give it to her a third time?

Thirdly, I may have tried to blame shift, but I realized, if I want my hubby back, I can't do that. I owned up to my actions. 
I went to counselors. 
And there were counselors out there that told me, "Oh, it's alright. You were stressed out. Of course you would have an affair." 
Then I found one that held my hand to the flame. 
Sounds like your wife found one that understood her viewpoint, the WRONG view point, and went with it. 

Fourthly, and this was something my counselor asked me:
Imagine yourself down the line. 2 weeks. 2 months. 2 years. At what point are you proud to call this woman your wife again?
She has already cheated when she should be proving to you, everyday, with everything in her, that she, not you, that she can make it up to you. 
I try and do that everday. Sounds like your wife is too busy being loose to have any time left to prove it to you.


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## crossbar

Shaggy said:


> Cut off all funding to her, no more credit cards, no more joint bank accounts.



Especially if your paying for her gym membership!!! You're paying for her to sleep with other guys.


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## Chris989

Trying to KCCO said:


> Not really sure what/how to do this but looking to vent and gains some advice and perspective.
> 
> My wife of 9 years (together since high school so 17yrs) started down some slippery slopes about 2 years ago ... getting too friendly with my old highschool boyfriends on facebook, then texting my friends, then colleagues and people at her work (hotel). It progressed to emotional cheating and she was caught. We've been in therapy for a while and not once has she ever wanted out ... always begging me to stay and not 'kick' her out.
> 
> We stayed in therapy - and it turned into me being blamed for most of the issues ... insecurity and controlling behaviours on my end (like checking her cell phone periodically, etc, nothing stalker-esque). And overall the past 6 months have been OK, not great but OK.
> 
> Last week I started sensing more distance and more rebellious behaviour on her end (password protecting her phone, not wearing wedding rings because she's going to gym more frequently) and I finally checked up again and found she has cheated (physically) this time with a guy from the gym.
> 
> We have 2 small children (girl 8, boy 6) and I am totally conflicted ... for the past week she's beggin and saying all the right things and I do believe she doesn't want to leave the family and wants to work her problems out (previous abuses as a child perhaps or who knows) and for the sake of not taking 2 kids from their mother (I am the primary caregiver, meals, homework, activities, bread-winner, etc) I just don't know what to do ...
> 
> It is so comfortable to just be with her, touch her and be ok, but I also can't erase the image of her with someone else (even if she was emotionally detached and never wanted to end her marriage). I have never thought of straying but I am now thinking that in order to stay I have to enjoy my own life and check out from her ... I also don't want to just have sex with her and close off feelings but if I don't I end up thinking about her being with another.
> 
> Way more to the story but not sure how much to keep sharing ... man .. I'm very confused, looking for any advice from those that have reconciled and if any zebras have ever changed their stripes ... please help


I've been where you are. I can't say - and no one can - whether your wife will cheat again.

I think I know my wife regrets what she did. I haven't ever seen or heard anyone so desperate. It's as scary seeing that as knowing how callous she was for the 2 1/2 years she had a *very* passionate affair.

We had a counsellor that was supposed to "specialise" in dealing with couples that have gone through infidelity. Turns out, she left me feeling as low as I have *ever* felt in my 40+ years on this Earth.

We changed counsellors. It has been darn hard. I filed a couple of weeks back but it's on hold. 

Without changing counsellors, we would not be together.

Who knows what the future holds. 

One thing I have learnt from this counsellor is not to feel pressured. If you want to stay with your wife - do it. If it makes you feel good - stick with her.

You can always divorce tomorrow.

It is very, very early days for you. Take your time. You have plenty of that but you only have one marriage.

Maybe it won't work but give it a shot and you can walk away with your head held high if it comes to it.

Give yourself space and time. You need it.


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## TDSC60

She is a serial cheater and unfortunately the idiot therapist who placed all the blame on you made it easy for her. Damn near encouraged her to do it again since there was no blame assigned to her the first time.

So now she is begging for another (third) chance just like she did the first time. When you give her another chance she will cheat again just like she did the first time.

Talk to a lawyer now.


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## 67flh

since your the bread winner, why you paying for the gym? i would seriously just dump her azz, before she brings something home science can't cure.


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## mahike

I am a big fan of marriage and trying to make it work for the kids but this is too much. You talked about what would be best for the kids and that is the right frame of mind. 

There is going to be resentment, you will not act like a husband and wife and you will have big fights. This will not be healty for the kids.

I would get the D started and get yourself checked for STD's I am sure your wife went bareback with the OM. Whatever you do do not get in the sack with her. Get yourself into IC. If it turns out you do not go all the way through with the D OK but you should take steps to protect yourself and the kids


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## Chris989

2asdf2 said:


> Must have been the same useless bit_s_h I had in Chapel Hill N.C.


I think our counsellor was such a man hater that it wouldn't surprise me if she flew between the UK and US *just* to put men down


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## Jeffery

cheatinghubby said:


> Never give a cheater a 2nd chance ever. If they didn't learn the 1st time, they most likely will never learn.
> 
> And giving a 2nd chance = if I cheat again they'll just keep taking me back.
> 
> File and move on IMO.


right on the mark


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## MattMatt

> My wife of 9 years (together since high school so 17yrs) started down some slippery slopes about 2 years ago ... getting too friendly with my old highschool boyfriends on facebook, then texting my friends, then colleagues and people at her work (hotel).


This sounds like she was using those men like a 'pick your own food' buffet, checking out who would help her cheat on you.

Maybe others on TAM will know, but is that weird behaviour, perhaps signifying some kind of crisis of the mind or just greed?:scratchhead:


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## walkonmars

Shaggy said:


> ... *Have your wife write a confession outing the guy too and send it to the wife/gf.I bet your wife won't want to betray the OM so you'll see her true loyalty is to him and not to you,* that her chains to do anything it takes, only extend to doing the minimum so that you will take her back, go back to providing everything and asking nothing in return....


This will tell you a lot. If she's truly remorseful she should jump at the chance to SHOW you some actual deed rather than sooth you with meaningless words. 

While you consider your future with or without her do not let finances play a major role. If you stay only because it is financially convenient then you are selling your self-respect for money.

Yes finances are going to be tight if you decide you want a true life partner. It'll be a cheap price if you find out in a year that she's gotten better at hiding affairs. 

Your children deserve two loving parents. For the moment, that is not happening. They do have two parents. One who's trust, hard work, and loyalty to the family has been easily devalued and disrespected by the other. Is this healthy? Is it better for the children to be raised in such an atmosphere? 


The underlying questions that have put to you by your wife's actions are: (1) can she be trusted? To answer that you have a little bit of history to fall back on due to her recent EA. Did she grow and learn from that? What I think she learned is that she doesn't have to be loyal to her family only to her longings and urges. How is that going to change this time? 

(2) can you live with the knowledge that she gave herself so easily to a gym rat? How long did you court her? Were you and she respectful to each other during dating? or was it one heavy and hot night after another from your first meeting? If it took time, then what did the gym rat have/say to get what he wanted so easily? 


You may want to reconcile but in doing so preserve your self-respect, honor, and dignity. DO NOT engage in a one-night stand yourself. If you do, then your children won't even have ONE honorable parent that can honestly set their moral compasses. SHE HAS to change if you're going to remain a couple. 

The question is how? This is her job. She needs to give you a tangible plan of action. NOT JUST words of sorrow. You've seen how those worked out last time. Keep posting and provide a bit more background if you care to. It may help others here to see some things that point to a specific action she or you need to accomplish.

So sorry she jeopardized the future of your family. And make no mistake. IT WAS SHE that accomplished that all by herself.

Nine years of marriage is "young" in terms of today's life expectancies. Now you have to charter a course for yourself and your family for the next 40 years or so. That in itself presents problems that arise for 'normal' couples in faithful marriages. You will be setting sail with a leaky boat if you don't do something about it now. 

Good luck my internet friend. Listen carefully to the experiences of others on this board that have experienced what you have. That is a great resource for you


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## Stonewall

Do not have sex with her until:

A. You see a lawyer first. In some states if you do it is viewed as you having forgiven her.

B. STD testing must come first.

I feel for you friend. I have seen so much of this that it makes me sick.


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## the guy

At the very least....understand what you didn't do the first time she cheated, like;
Expose
NC letter
IC
Transperantcy
Accountablity

About the only thing you did cover was MC and as you can see that counselor did not specialize in infidelity, The crap counselor actually reinforced your wifes behavior.

Hell I'd contact the MC and let him/her know what a great job they did........not. 

Sorry brother but I'm sure you had the "if you do it again" talk with you chick....well she did it again!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Acabado

Adding to the_guy: She start behaving as she wasn't a f0cking princess, she start contributing to the house, coparenting, putting money on the table...
What a bout a post nuptial?


In my book I'd refuse any kind of MC. She needs IC.
Maybe you need IC too ton understand whay the hell you let your wife walk over you like this.

A few uselful links:
Self improving, emotional detachment: The 180 degree rules

Because you seems like to need: No More Mr Nice Guy


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## mel123

STD test.... the men you know of, my be the "tip of the iceberg"


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## F-102

Hmmmm...

"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice..."


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## tom67

Hope he comes back


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## MattMatt

TDSC60 said:


> She is a serial cheater and unfortunately the idiot therapist who placed all the blame on you made it easy for her. Damn near encouraged her to do it again since there was no blame assigned to her the first time.
> 
> So now she is begging for another (third) chance just like she did the first time. When you give her another chance she will cheat again just like she did the first time.
> 
> Talk to a lawyer now.


Talk to the lawyer about suing that therapist. Seriously. That's why therapists carry malpractice insurance.


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## workindad

If you plan to stay with her, invest in quality condoms as they will offer the best (not perfect) protection against STDs. You never know what souvenir she will bring home to you.

Please excuse the bluntness.

Good luck

WD


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## WasDecimated

Please...no second chance.

Learn from my mistakes. I gave mine a second chance after an EA, and then a third chance after a PA. I wasted 3 1/2 years total on her only to file for divorce in the end. I have kids too and I know how hard it is but she will drive you crazy if you stay with her.

Can you ever trust her again? NO! Then why would you stay? 

Go see a lawyer now
Do the 180 and emotionally move on...she's gone.


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## Will_Kane

Trying to KCCO said:


> My wife of 9 years (together since high school so 17yrs) started down some slippery slopes about 2 years ago ... getting too friendly with my old highschool boyfriends on facebook, then texting my friends, then colleagues and people at her work (hotel). It progressed to emotional cheating and she was caught. We've been in therapy for a while and it turned into me being blamed for most of the issues ... insecurity and controlling behaviours on my end (like checking her cell phone periodically, etc, nothing stalker-esque). And overall the past 6 months have been OK, not great but OK.
> 
> Last week I started sensing more distance and more rebellious behaviour on her end (password protecting her phone, not wearing wedding rings because she's going to gym more frequently) and I finally checked up again and found she has cheated (physically) this time with a guy from the gym.
> 
> We have 2 small children (girl 8, boy 6) and I am totally conflicted ... *for the past week she's beggin and saying all the right things* and I do believe she doesn't want to leave the family and wants to work her problems out (*previous abuses as a child perhaps *or who knows) and for the sake of not taking 2 kids from their mother (I am the primary caregiver, meals, homework, activities, bread-winner, etc) I just don't know what to do ...


It happened twice now. What have been the consequences for her cheating? What will be the consequences if you catch her cheating again in 2 years? How do you know she has not cheated on you more times than you have caught her? 

Why would you say "previous abuses as a child perhaps"? Are you wondering if she perhaps was abused as a child? Or are you saying she definitely was abused as a child and this abuse perhaps is the reason for her cheating?

In any event, simply begging and saying the right things are not good reasons to take her back and work on the marriage. If you let her off this easy, you can expect it to happen again.

1. She must handwrite a no contact letter to the other man stating how horribly ashamed she is of her behavior and how terrible she feels for risking losing you, her husband, who is the most important person in the world to her, and that if other man ever attempts to contact her again in any way shape or form, that she will file harassment charges against him. This is the content of the letter, nothing more, nothing less. It begins with other man's name, it ends, "signed" and her name. It contains no terms of endearment, no sorry it didn't work out, nothing else. She gives the letter to you for editing and mailing.

2. She quits the gym. No more gym for her. She can work out at home. She is not trustworthy. No going out with coworkers after work. No girls nights outs.

3. She gives you access to all communication devices and accounts, all passwords. She lets you know her whereabouts 24/7. She does not delete any emails, messages, texts, or calls from her devices or accounts - everything gets saved. If you find out anything has been deleted, you will assume the worst. There is no place for secrecy in a marriage. You have agreed to share your lives together. You can have privacy when you go to the bathroom, but there should be nothing phoned, messaged, or texted that your spouse shouldn't be able to see.

4. She blocks other man on facebook, deletes him from contacts, blocks his number on email, does everything possible to block him from her accounts.

5. She handwrites a letter of apology to you.

6. She tells you the other man's contact information. If married or with girlfriend, you contact other man's wife and girlfriend and let her know what has happened. You do not let your wife know you are planning to do this or that you have done it.

7. She wears her wedding rings unless you believe she has a valid reason to remove them.

8. She throws out all clothes she wore when meeting up with and having sex with the other man.

9. She gets tested for STDs and gives you the results.

10. If you want the details, she tells you the whole truth about the affair, when it started, how it started, and WHY it started, etc. If the story doesn't make sense, she will take a polygraph to prove her truthfulness.

Tell your wife that you cannot control her. You can only control yourself and what you are willing and not willing to accept in a marriage, and how you react to her actions.

Cheaters are liars. They say anything to get what they want. Talk is cheap. Make her do these actions to show she really wants to save her marriage to you. Do not accept any verbal promises unless they are backed up by actions.

If she doesn't agree to these conditions, file for divorce. She really is not remorseful, not interested in committing to you, just interested in appeasing you with words. Divorce is a long process, if she later agrees to your conditions, you can postpone it to work on your marriage.

If she does agree, buy a voice-activated recorder and some heavy-duty velcro and place it under the seat of her car. Also keylog her computer and monitor phone bills. This is to verify that the affair truly has ended. You should keep it up until you are comfortable in ending it, but monitor closely for at least two weeks.

Trust is important in marriage. Constantly monitoring is not healthy. However, in the initial few weeks after infidelity is discovered, it can be extremely healthy and helpful in restoring trust. You can cut down on the monitoring as you continue to discover nothing and your trust builds. Or you could catch her continuing the affair, which would save you a lot of time and trouble and heartache.

If it weren't for the kids, I would say just dump her, she is more trouble than she's worth. As it is, I can see you are determined to try to work this out with her. She will use your fear of losing your marriage against you, knowing that you won't end the marriage even if she engages in affairs. To cheat again just two years after the last time, just six months since you said your marriage started to be good again, shows a tremendous lack of concern for you, the kids, or the marriage and a tremendous amount of "me, me, ME" attitude.


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## Dubya

Whether you are looking to kick her to the curb or to reconcile, it starts with the same fist step. Send her packing. She has to quickly know you are serious and committed to not being mistreated. 

Sorry, bud, this must be very painful. I'd move on.


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## Trying to KCCO

Shaggy said:


> What about the guy she cheated with his he married or have a gf? Have your wife write a confession outing the guy too and send it to the wife/gf.
> 
> I bet your wife won't want to betray the OM so you'll see her true loyalty is to him and not to you, that her chains to do anything it takes,


Shaggy, not trying to put a silver lining but she did out him, and provide all the info (never thought of the confession letter ... heat of the moment I guess) and I went after him myself ... not in a physical violence way but I was able to get enough contact info to let his wife know of his messing around. It is like she's a jekyll and hyde or multiple personalities that can totally shut off her life.

Regardless it is still an awful spot


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## costa200

> We stayed in therapy - and it turned into me being blamed for most of the issues ... insecurity and controlling behaviours on my end (like checking her cell phone periodically, etc, nothing stalker-esque)


Yeah... So she decided to cheat just to prove your point... :scratchhead:

Cheat me once shame on you, cheat me twice...


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## Hicks

she's got a character flaw. She will not change. A normal person does not have such a strong drive to cheat.

All of the mess that will ensue is 100% on her.

If you stay together for the sake of the kids, do so but fully emotionally detach and do not expect your wife to be any different.


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## Shaggy

Can you share how you found out? and what the circumstances of her cheating were? was it once, was it preceded by coffee , drinks?


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## Shaggy

Trying to KCCO said:


> Shaggy, not trying to put a silver lining but she did out him, and provide all the info (never thought of the confession letter ... heat of the moment I guess) and I went after him myself ... not in a physical violence way but I was able to get enough contact info to let his wife know of his messing around. It is like she's a jekyll and hyde or multiple personalities that can totally shut off her life.
> 
> Regardless it is still an awful spot


When you say she outed him - do you mean she told you who she cheated with? 

That's not the same as writing a full on confession, naming him as the partner. 

this second one is her throwing him under the bus.


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## Trying to KCCO

Shaggy,

I found out when she unlocked her phone in the morning (guessing she was checking for any messages, not just these ones) and then got in the shower. I came up from downstairs and opened it up and found the emails to this douche-bag.

She met him at the gym ... I had even seen her talking to him at the gym weeks before I found out and got my back up. She said that they began talking one time on the treadmill and he approached her in the parking lot after and asked if they could talk more and provided her an email address. She is significantly over weight but has a very pretty face, I'm sure he was preying on her low self-esteem and giving the big girl an ego boost. And he picked a winner with her given her issues. She was abused as a pre-teen and parents were no help basically allowing her to have sex at a ridiculously young age ... possibly more stuff prior to that as well as a young child. She has this need to feel attractive and her personal validation is based on whether people find her appealing (even at 130lbs overweight) ... another story that adds into this tangled mess.

This escalated over a couple weeks and eventually she decided to forgo her workout to spend time with him. According to her it was a one-time thing ... and after the physical act (not intercourse, but not just making out either) he called things off to deal with some family issues - this was about a month ago, then about a week or so leading up to me finding out, they had resumed contact via email. 

I only saw the emails asking about a future hook-up, not about any PA, but when confronted and pushed she spilled the whole story ... It echoed a message I heard from a mentor some time ago about 'never open a door unless you're prepared to deal with what's behind it' 

She was fearful and deleted her email account and all messages, but she did give me the gutless knob's email address. I contacted him and indicated I have more info and detail than I actually had (claimed a Private Investigator, and police friends had assisted) and demanded he quit and stay the 'F' away from my gym (my place of refuge) and if I ever see his face I'll pass along all the rest of the information I've got. I also threw a couple digs about how it must be nice to have an open marriage and be able to have that freedom and perhaps his wife could share with me how to cope with this lifestyle.

The guy emailed back begging for me to keep it quiet, vowed to 'be a ghost' and then said 'for what it's worth I'm so unbelievably sorry' ... I told him that for what it's worth F - You and he better kiss his kids and wife tonight because this is only the starting point and I haven't decided what to do with the info I've collected. It was a bit therapeutic for me as sick as that sounds ...

I told her last night that the law says we have to be separated for 12 months, so effective 10/2 we are separated and neither of us is bound to the constraints of a marriage. I also said I intend to begin the process of separating our finances (not much left over at the end of the month) and will be filing for divorce after the required 12 months of separation. That being said I think she believes as long as I haven't got her kicked out of the house she may be able to salvage something ... I'm just hanging on for dear life to find out if she's changing to avoid losing her meal ticket (she does work but I'm the primary breadwinner) and family, or if she is looking to change.


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## TDSC60

Is the "separation" a bluff to see how she reacts or do you have a lawyer to advise you?


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## Count of Monte Cristo

Trying to KCCO said:


> Shaggy,
> 
> I found out when she unlocked her phone in the morning (guessing she was checking for any messages, not just these ones) and then got in the shower. I came up from downstairs and opened it up and found the emails to this douche-bag.
> 
> She met him at the gym ... I had even seen her talking to him at the gym weeks before I found out and got my back up. She said that they began talking one time on the treadmill and he approached her in the parking lot after and asked if they could talk more and provided her an email address. *She is significantly over weight but has a very pretty face*, I'm sure he was preying on her low self-esteem and giving the big girl an ego boost. And he picked a winner with her given her issues. She was abused as a pre-teen and parents were no help basically allowing her to have sex at a ridiculously young age ... possibly more stuff prior to that as well as a young child. She has this need to feel attractive and her personal validation is based on whether people find her appealing (even at 130lbs overweight) ... another story that adds into this tangled mess.
> 
> *This escalated over a couple weeks and eventually she decided to forgo her workout to spend time with him. According to her it was a one-time thing ... and after the physical act (not intercourse, but not just making out either)* he called things off to deal with some family issues - this was about a month ago, then about a week or so leading up to me finding out, they had resumed contact via email.
> 
> I only saw the emails asking about a future hook-up, not about any PA, but when confronted and pushed she spilled the whole story ... It echoed a message I heard from a mentor some time ago about 'never open a door unless you're prepared to deal with what's behind it'
> 
> *She was fearful and deleted her email account and all messages*, but she did give me the gutless knob's email address. I contacted him and indicated I have more info and detail than I actually had (claimed a Private Investigator, and police friends had assisted) and demanded he quit and stay the 'F' away from my gym (my place of refuge) and if I ever see his face I'll pass along all the rest of the information I've got. I also threw a couple digs about how it must be nice to have an open marriage and be able to have that freedom and perhaps his wife could share with me how to cope with this lifestyle.
> 
> The guy emailed back begging for me to keep it quiet, vowed to 'be a ghost' and then said 'for what it's worth I'm so unbelievably sorry' ... I told him that for what it's worth F - You and he better kiss his kids and wife tonight because this is only the starting point and I haven't decided what to do with the info I've collected. It was a bit therapeutic for me as sick as that sounds ...
> 
> I told her last night that the law says we have to be separated for 12 months, so effective 10/2 we are separated and neither of us is bound to the constraints of a marriage. I also said I intend to begin the process of separating our finances (not much left over at the end of the month) and will be filing for divorce after the required 12 months of separation. That being said I think she believes as long as I haven't got her kicked out of the house she may be able to salvage something ... I'm just hanging on for dear life to find out if she's changing to avoid losing her meal ticket (she does work but I'm the primary breadwinner) and family, or if she is looking to change.


KCCO, first let me say how sorry I am that you're here.

I highlighted a few items that jumped out at me. The fact that she's overweight could signify that she 'settled' for you. Are you overweight yourself? Too many times on this forum I've read about a cheating spouse (usually a woman) who loses weight and quickly ditches her husband because now she's getting the attention that had been long denied her. Keep this in mind.

Also, she said that it was a 'one time' thing and that they made out and did not have sex. If you believe this, I have a big ol' beachfront property in Big D for sale that you can purchase. This is cheater's speak for 'I screwed him many times and I'm afraid to tell you the truth'.

Finally, the fact that she deleted her email account is troubling indeed. She basically destroyed evidence that she did not want you to see. Your wife is lying big time. Is there any way to retrieve those emails? 

Your wife is a serial cheater. Many people have been abused as children and do not turn out to be cheaters. She is using this as a get out of jail free card. Unfortunately, you are married to a broken woman and I don't see how this can end well. 

Finally, don't stay married for finances or for the sake of the kids. This is one prison you do not want to put yourself in.

Good luck.


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## mel123

remember your (real)problem is NOT the OM,,,, its your wife....If it were not him. it would be someone else.


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## Kallan Pavithran

Why you didnt expose the OM to his wife? Do it OMW deserve truth.

Get tested for STDs.


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## Acabado

Your wife is obviously broken. Yeah her FOO issues, low selfsteem, craving attention, inexistent boundaries, laziness... Too many issues nobody can start fixing but her. She needs tons, years of intensive IC. Still there's zero garantees, adults are unlikely to chance, so ingrained issues might be imposible to conquer. Seems she's just not marriage material. I have the sense you have tons of love to give her but love is not enough. You may empathize but better start caring about yourself and stop worrying on how to fix her.

Do you feel she has any idea about how messed up she's in the head? Can you sense any willingness or ability to face her issues?

Sorry man.


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## Acabado

> She was abused as a pre-teen and parents were no help basically allowing her to have sex at a ridiculously young age ... possibly more stuff prior to that as well as a young child.





> It is like she's a jekyll and hyde or multiple personalities that can totally shut off her life.


Not making excuses at all, just putting into context just a pieze of the puzzle of your wife psychological make up so you have a quick overview on how *some* victims of of sexual abuse at childhood are made upp inside. The following is shamelessly stolen from another infidelity board:


> Topic: *Candid talk about sex abuse and its role in affairs *
> I have seen it plenty of times on more than one message board....sex abuse and infidelity going hand and hand.
> It seems to have a category of its own because often what happens in the here and now is not just influenced by past abuse but HEAVILY influenced by past abuse.
> Some common vunerablities of sex abuse victims:
> 1) *Low self esteem/sense of worthlessness*. For those who were repeatedly abused they percieve there only value in having sex or being used for sex. They have a hard time seeing themselves beyond this. Often they cannot accept compiments, cannot accept loving relationship is because they don't feel worthy of being loved.
> 2) *Disassociate*. Victims learn both in the begginning of being abused then later as a coping mechanism to disassociate themselves from the abuse from their attacker. During the abuse the victim will learn to pick a spot on the ceiling or wall and focus on it until the abuse was over. After the abuse is over they learn to disassociate the every day person from the person abused. It allows them to seperate the pain of abuse from the everyday life.
> 3) *Minimizing*. Abuse victims learn to minimize the abuse. After all if they convince themselves its not abuse then they are not victims...who wants to be a victim. Or if they convince themselves the abuse wasn't all that bad then don't feel the urgency to face it to deal with it.
> 4) *Compartmentalize*. Abuse victims learn to comparmentalize things. If they store painful memories in the far reaches of their mind then don't have to live with it constantly. The memories are still there unlike suppressing or repressing memories.
> 5) *Secrecy*. Abuse victims learn real early you don't tell. Often a skilled (word used loosely) predator can tell which children will or won't tell. And of course they go after the child they think won't tell. In closer relationships where the abuser is a someone known to the victim they rely on pressure and manipulating the victim into silence. They may say things like be quiet you don't want to people to know you did this or that. They may imply some type of harm will come to the victim and in some cases outright threaten the victim should they tell.
> 6) *Self blaming*. This comes in many forms. The abuser themselves while try and convince their victim they "wanted it" or they "enjoyed it". The victim might have a physical reaction to the abuse. They will say well if I felt something if I responded then I must have wanted it in someway. Finally society will project blame....good girls don't do that. For boys straight boys don't do that and so on.
> 7) *Lack of empathy*. Not surprising that if you learn to ignore your own abuse then you won't be very aware of other persons pains.
> 8) *Distorted sexuality*. Sex becomes something that is based on control not on love and pleasure. The victim sees sex a way to get "secondary gains". If I submit to this then I will be liked, loved or even just left alone. They see sex as unpleasant, as hurtful as being less of significane. In short they take those skills of minimizing, disassociation and apply it to their sexuality. Sex is less about pleasure and more about who is the boss.
> Those are just some of the many ways sex abuse impacts its victim.
> How does that relate to adultery?
> Well first and foremost we know many WSs had low self esteem. They felt unloved, they felt worthless.
> We also know that WSs compartmentalize, minimize, disassociate themselves from the fantasy of their affair and their every day life.
> And of course all affairs involve a high level of secrecy.
> But here is the big key for those WSs that were sexually abused as a child or young teen........these feelings (distorted sexuality and sense of worthlessness), these learned behaviors (compartmentalizing, disassociating and minimizing) were FORCED on them.
> The SA victim HAD to learn these behaviors in order to cope with something forced on them against their will. And often forced on them when they were for the most defenseless to deal with the abuser.
> I would urge any BS who's spouse was sexually abused to read The Sexual Healing Journey. It covers a ton of stuff on how SA impacts its victims. It also speaks to the partners or loved one of SA victims.
> My old computer crased but I hope to get the bookmarks off the old drive. There are ton of posts on Marriage Builders by abuse victims. They talk very candidly about how the abuse controled them for years even though they thought they had a handle on it.
> So both WS and BS dealing with SA please keep in mind what happened in the recent past was strongly influenced by your WS's past as a child or young teen. And it was a past that saw things forced on them against their will.


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## costa200

> This escalated over a couple weeks and eventually she decided to forgo her workout to spend time with him. According to her it was a one-time thing ... and after the physical act (not intercourse, but not just making out either)


Hmmm yeah, because that's what grown people do when they meet up to get physical. They stop themselves before intercourse! Right?!

They stop at things ending in ...job just like starting out teens! Right?!

Man, how sure of this are you? Are you just willing to accept this because the alternative can be too painful?

BTW, i'm having a little trouble getting that "she was abused thus she became a cheating wife" thing. I understand people getting all sorts of sexual problems from abuse. But how does being abused turn into cheating? 

Is the number of cheaters in abuse victims higher than in the general population or lower? Is it really a cause effect thing or is it just some "free from jail card" some people to justify all sorts of abhorrent behavior? Would really like to see some stats on that.


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## Sara8

costa200 said:


> Hmmm yeah, because that's what grown people do when they meet up to get physical. They stop themselves before intercourse! Right?!
> 
> They stop at things ending in ...job just like starting out teens! Right?!
> 
> Man, how sure of this are you? Are you just willing to accept this because the alternative can be too painful?
> 
> BTW, i'm having a little trouble getting that "she was abused thus she became a cheating wife" thing. I understand people getting all sorts of sexual problems from abuse. But how does being abused turn into cheating?
> 
> Is the number of cheaters in abuse victims higher than in the general population or lower? Is it really a cause effect thing or is it just some "free from jail card" some people to justify all sorts of abhorrent behavior? Would really like to see some stats on that.


I agree, although I think Acabado's post is well written.

I think being abused is a reason but not an excuse, and No, not all cheaters were abused or have low self esteem. 

Some have highly narcissistic traits or feel a sense of entitlement to cheat. 

For example a woman may feel she is better looking than her husband and did him a favor by marrying him and thus deserves the attentions of more than one man or a better looking man.

Also it is easier for a cheating married women to get a superior looking affair partner, than they could get in a real relationship.

Conversely men affair down. Often, but not always, taking a less attractive women because she was available. 

I also agree that it is unlikely that two adults, familiar with sex, just did the teen thing of kissing and touching. 

They did the whole nine yards, they just don't want to admit it. 

Also for various legal reasons they may not want to admit to penetration. 

It always makes me sad when some BS comes on here claiming they believe their spouse only kissed and touched the affair partner. 

Yeah right, they really went to all that trouble of sneaking around and possibly getting caught, just to kiss and touch. 

Give me a break.

EA's too. I think all cheaters try to say it was only and emotional affair when in reality it was both emotional and physical. 

Again there are various legal advantages to lying about this point.


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## Acabado

> I think being abused is a reason but not an excuse


Not even that. There's zero reasons to cheat. There's always the moral gap. Cheating always implies entitlement and lack of integrity. What I was trying to put out there for OP was a very short view of the complexity and severity of his wifes potential issues. BTW any abused child become a different individual, with particular issues and coping skills. I know of a former child abused female who is esencially asexual while I know of very promiscuous ones. That's why I bolded "some". Still ignoring the effects of SAb when you are married to one of them is irresponsible, not matter whether you decide to stick or just to dig some answers. 
About the subject iheartlife posted some interesting answers in this thread. I agree with all of them. I've been afraid to post this


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## tonyarz

I have been through this. Not every relationship is cut and dry though. It's up to you if you want to deal with this. I moved on. I would bail if I was you.


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## MattMatt

You married a woman with problems. So did I.

It isn't easy. Divorce or stay together.

We stayed together. It's not been easy. And not just because of the infidelity.

But on the whole, I am really glad we stuck it out. My best wishes and prayers to you and your wife.


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## Headspin

mmm..... terrible my friend and full sympathy with you

Sadly she's a serial cheat and imo it will simply not work 

She'll pull it all in again ....for a while, then your forgiveness will give her the green light again and eventually you will end it, but 2 or 3 other men down the line you'll probably waste valuable years in the meantime.

Here's mine http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/46264-headspinning.html and although it's long you'll see startling similarities.

You'll see others on here from the same sinking ship as well and I'd hazard a guess that there are hardly any with successful reconciliations where serial infidelity is involved.

There are manyfold reasons and some form of personality disorder ( borderline etc) based on childhood events will be at the root of it, but frankly your are, have been, will pay for that forever. They cannot change, have enjoyed the cake and effectively do not want to.

This is something they will make your fault and because of your own 'fog' of love and devotion, because you have actually enjoyed great times in your marriage you will accept that in order to keep it all together.

This is wrong. Nothing wrong with you wanting to have it as it is when it's great but you need to accept that this is not great for them at their inner core. For some reason nthey will never be content with what you have to offer or anyone else has to offer on a long term basis.

The affair is fantasy life - full throttle and is intoxicating and high. If you give her the green light by forgiving it more than once why should she turn it down when the chance comes along again - like it will

However this is not your fault. Trust and fidelity is the rock on which any good marriage is based, everything comes after those two things and if they are absent through one or more infidelities then the slippery slope gets steeper and steeper until you are simply hurtling towards the abyss.

It's not all doom and gloom my friend you have found this place 

I wish I had 7 yrs ago and I know I'd have made different decisions based on the wealth of experience found on here


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## Dewayne76

Ok, quickly, wth is IC? Trying to learn that one still, if I saw it, it didn't sink in. Thanks.

Dewayne


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## Chris989

Individual Counselling


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## Dubya

Dewayne76 said:


> Ok, quickly, wth is IC? Trying to learn that one still, if I saw it, it didn't sink in. Thanks.
> 
> Dewayne


Individual counseling


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## Chris989

There seems to be an odd resistance to doing a sticky for this, so here are the most common abbreviations:

A - affair
AFAIK - as far as I know
AP - affair person

BH - betrayed husband
BS - betrayed spouse
BW - betrayed wife
CWI - Coping with Infidelity (here!)
Dday - discovery day, the day a BS is told or discovers on his/her own about the affair
EA - emotional affair
EMA - extramarital affair
EMR - extramarital relationship
FIL - father in law
IC - individual counseling
LC - little, limited or low contact
MC - marriage counseling
MIL - mother in law
MM - married man
MOM, MOW - married other man, married other woman. These are people who are married and in an affair with someone who is also married.
MW - married woman
MP - married person
NC - no contact
OM - other man
OP - This can have three meanings: other person or original poster (the person who started the thread) or original post (the first post in the thread)
OW - other woman
PA - physical affair
PM - private message
POS (OM/OW) Piece of sh**
STBXH - soon to be ex husband
STBXW - soon to be ex wife
TAM - Talk About Marriage (here!)
TMI - too much information
WH - wayward husband
WW - wayward wife
WS - wayward spouse
WTF - what the f***


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## Jeffery

two affairs> file for D, do the 180 to protect yourself and move her out for awhile to give you time to think


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