# An introductory post, and my Wife's EA



## fotf17 (Sep 25, 2017)

Hey folks – long time lurker here – since June or so, but I recently registered. There were a couple other threads I wanted to comment on, questions I wanted to ask, but I figured I’d post my story as a way of an introductory post…. Also to clear my head and solicit some input, advice, what-have-you as I feel like my recovery has somewhat stalled, as I’m having trouble moving on in a matter of speaking. 

Married 13 years, together with my wife 18, two kids (10 and 7). We were acquaintances in high school, but didn’t start dating until after college. 

This past winter/spring, she engaged in an emotional affair with a college boyfriend of hers. Kind of a redundant and cliched stock-story – reconnected on facebook, initially started as a “hey how’re you doing?” thing and catching up. Eventually turned to increased and intentionally hidden communication (texting for the most part) and pretty frequent phone calls (once every couple of days) that were long in duration. Sharing of lives, sharing of emotional intimacy, etc. 

Dday for me was discovering a saved text from him to her in late May. That day was awful, as it is for all of us who’ve gone through it. I don’t think she appreciated the reality of what she was doing, and seeing how it could ruin our entire lives mortified her I think. But shock, lots of shock. She promised no contact, a commitment to me and our life together, we started couple therapy, etc. 

A second official Dday occurred early July when I discovered they were still in contact. In a much-reduced way, and “not as it was before,” but contact nonetheless. She claimed she didn’t look at this period as one where they had a “relationship.” It was more about needing someone to talk to about the situation, she said. Maybe she didn’t fully appreciate the nature of what no contact meant. I told her it was a like a binary thing – contact is either there or it is not, and if it’s there, then we (she and I) will not continue. Anyway, that was another long day – something about it may have brought her to her senses, I don’t know. 

But it was the distinction of what happened in June vs. what happened previously that really gets me. During the actual EA, she hid things from me, a series of lies sure enough, whereas in June she explicitly lied to me to my face. When I asked specific questions on continued contact (are you still talking to him?), methods of contact (does he have access to your work contact info?), etc., she looked me in the eyes and and lied ("no," "no."). This is what scares me, because it calls into question every answer she ever gave me to any question I've ever had... 

Anyway, the only way I found about their continued contact was because I had tracked down and informed his wife of the situation. I mulled it over for a while, and eventually did it. My wife was pissed, OM’s wife was grateful. Telling her, though, was the best decision I made during this process. It brought the continued contact into light, and eventually the knowledge that the OM had allowed himself to fall into and EA before. My wife wasn’t the first, nor even the first “old girlfriend from college” that he did this with. Effectively, the "special-ness" of their relationship was called into question. (And from what the OM’s wife tells me, they’re heading towards divorce.) She learned that there were consequences for these actions, and that the fantasy of their relationship had real-life implications. 

So here I am today. I don’t know where, though. I feel like I’m in some kind of holding pattern, vacillating between fear and anxiety that they may still be maintaining contact, and confidence that she and I are a stronger couple facing a better future together. I spend time researching ways in which she could be hiding things, and then chastising myself for looking for bogeymen where they probably, and honestly, don’t exist. 

So maybe someone here could give me advice, or slap me in the face and tell me to see things in a different light. I’m not sure. I know there are a lot of holes in this story, which I’ll be happy to elaborate on. 

But from what I can tell, she’s honestly remorseful that it happened, has ceased contact, disgusted with herself for allowing it to happen in the first place and for lying to me in June, and is focused on us, on me, and our family. On the other end of the spectrum, she’s a bit of rug-sweeper-under (largely, I think, because she doesn’t want to think about what she did, and what she did to me – a defense mechanism so to speak), and our communication, which is on both of us, basically sucks. I'm pretty sure she doesn't want to reopen and constantly revisit the situation, while I'm afraid... well, afraid of a lot of things... if I keep harping on it, it might push her away, afraid of ruining otherwise good days and/or times... that sort of thing.

While I'm encourage by many of the things she's done since everything came to a head, I'm bothered by a lot of how she responded to the situation, and that every detail I've gotten I've had to wrench from her. Like I said, I'm stalled in my recovery - my mind constantly going back to the timeline and revisiting the details. Half of me is like “it’s only 4/5 months out, I’m entitled to still be haunted by it” while the other half is like “man, it’s been 4/5 months, time to start looking forward.” 

Other notes: I’m pretty sure there was no physical affair. While the distance between the two didn’t make it impossible, it does make it pretty improbable, and I don’t believe that, at the time of discovery, the relationship was at the point where it would have progressed to that. That being said, he was starting to push for a possible meet-up during the summer, which she tells me she resisted and had no intention of pursuing. Also, at the time of discovery, she had no intention of telling me of her EA.

Anyway, sorry for the ramblings (the preview shows me that this is so long! So many words! - lol) – hopefully it made some sense – and thanks in advance for any input.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

I know what it feels like to be lied to by someone you love more than anything in the world. It hurts and makes you question everything. 

First, take care of yourself. Get into amazing shape. Take your anger out at the gym by lifting heavy. Stay away from booze. Eat and drink healthy. Having a great body does wonders in the confidence department, because you need all the confidence you can get right now. How could she choose this guy over you and your family is going through your mind all the time.

Second, step back and monitor her from a distance. Quietly monitor her phone bill usage. Watch all of her money transactions. Plant a VAR (Voice Activated Recorder) in her car randomly. Check in with the OM's wife to see if she knows anything new. You'll find out sooner than later if she took it further underground. 

Third, figure out why she decided go outside the marriage for this emotional connection. A marriage counselor will help with this, but it's worthless if she's still in contact with OM. She also has to be 100% invested into the marriage. This either is going to make your marriage stronger or it's a reality check that the marriage has been neglected for a while and there might not be a fix.

Has she given you access to everything? Facebook, email, etc? I'd ask her to deactivate her Facebook account. I'd also do a scan on her phone to recover deleted text messages. Look for cheater apps, Kik and WhatsApp. Dr. Fone can recover almost everything.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

How far apart do they live?
Were the sexting?
Has you sex life changed in the last couple of years?
It takes three to five years to get back to a kind of normal. You will always doubt hers and others honesty. If she says it's raining you will want to look outside.
Hard to believe someone loves you and will do this behind your back isn't it?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

"Wife, I am not sure I can be married to you anymore. I will be taking the next couple of months to work on me and decide if I am willing to risk remaining with someone who can't be loyal. In the meantime, any further contact will make my decision incredibly simple."

Book a polygraph without telling her. 

Pick her up the day of and arrive at the facility without telling her why she is there. Then break it to her. 

"Wife, you are about to take a polygraph. Refusal to do so, or failure of the test, will result in me filing for divorce within the week. Do you understand?"

"Now, before we go in, is there anything you want to tell me?"

Know what you are forgiving.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Excellent advice FJ


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

fotf17 said:


> forward.”
> 
> That being said, he was starting to push for a possible meet-up during the summer, which *she tells me she resisted and had no intention of pursuing.* Also, at the time of discovery, she had no intention of telling me of her EA.



Do you really believe that?

Have you actually seen the their messages?


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

My advice may not be quite as to-the-point as FJ's. The fact that your wife is showing remorse and shame for what she did is a good sign. The false start isn't unheard of, or really unexpected. The problem here is that what you are told, 99% of the time is only a sliver of what has been going on. It's called trickle truth. But, there are times when what you know is accurate and there are no more facts to uncover.

The recommendation for a lie detector test should be followed. I'm not sure that a separation and no contact is in order, but you will have to make that call for your own healing. You and the OMW should compare notes to see if there was a potential for them to meet. Any out of town trips or periods of being missing?

Also, as someone asked before, what was the nature of the affair? Sexting? Pictures? I love you's"?


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Cheaters lie and the more someone lies the easier it gets. You can accept that is the person who she is and keep your relationship with her or you can decide to not tolerate it and divorce her, but you can't legitimately expect her to be someone that she's not (i.e. an honest person). That acceptance may be a growing point for the both of you if she can recognize the danger it poses and work through it. The risk you are taking is that she now knows to be even sneakier if she goes down this path in the future and the odds of you catching her each subsequent time are going to get slimmer. How do you want to live your life and are you OK being married to her knowing the person she is today? If you want to stay married are you going to want to reestablish different relationship rules than what you currently have (either more or less restrictive for both of you)? Look at her behavior as a catalyst and then decide how you want to handle it and what you want your future to be, then act accordingly.


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## fotf17 (Sep 25, 2017)

Hey all - thanks for all the feedback and advice! I'm new to this system, so i'll try to respond with tags and such the best I can



GuyInColorado said:


> I know what it feels like to be lied to by someone you love more than anything in the world. It hurts and makes you question everything.
> 
> First, take care of yourself. Get into amazing shape. Take your anger out at the gym by lifting heavy. Stay away from booze. Eat and drink healthy. Having a great body does wonders in the confidence department, because you need all the confidence you can get right now. How could she choose this guy over you and your family is going through your mind all the time.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice Guy - 
First point - I started that. It took me awhile to come around to it, wallowing and all, but I've recently started jogging, and while I hate every minute of it (lol), I've been doing it pretty consistently and have started noticing results. Lifting will come soonish I think. One of the things I realized is that if I were to unfortunately find myself single, for the first time since the late 90s, I'd like think I'd be a pretty good catch. While I'm not the most self-confident guy, and exercise is helping to change that, I know I have a lot to offer - I love cooking, I'm pretty good at cleaning up, relatively responsible, I have my nerdy interests (but I own them and am proud of them), I'm handy around the house, I like to think I'm generous and giving as a lover, and unhesitatingly self-sacrifice for the sake of my wife and family. I told her this, and it kind of freaked her out - sudden realization of what she took for granted.

Second point - I'm doing that, but have been careless with some things. The problem on my end, though, is that when things went "deceitful" in June she used a phone I can't, and will never be able to, monitor - her work phone. However, I have been in contact with his wife, checking in an what-not, and from what we can tell, communication has stopped. Of course, if they decided to go all james bond on this with burner phones and the like, well that's a different story. I sound like a cliche when I say it, but I just can't see her doing that. Plenty of fools have said that before, right? I've thought about the VAR before (after reading that thread on here), but that just seems so... next level... that I'm not comfortable with. At least, not yet.

Third - during our marriage counseling, we kind of got to the root of some of it. Again, sounds so cliche - just another statistic. The monotony of everyday life, stressed out, kids, activities, running around, never enough time for us. The relationship was described as you always hear about any new relationship - "fresh" "new" "exciting" but rooted in the nostalgia of the past, or an easier time (college). The desire for that "spark" that is lost over time in a long term relationship. But not for lack of me trying. 

Access has been technically granted, but really, it hasn't. She's says "its all there if you want to look," but really, the implication is that I'm just supposed to trust her. Bull crap, really. And one of the issues I feel is stalling my recovery - a lack of voluntary transparency. And honestly, I could look at her phone till I'm blue in the face (because she doesn't guard it, and it is left out) and it wouldn't even really matter. If she wanted to do something, it would be on her work phone. 

I've mulled over the idea of dr. fone. I'm not familiar with it, and not sure exactly how it works. As far as I understand, it picks up messages that have been deleted but not overwritten. So for WhatsApp, for example, if she stopped using it as a message system back in June, and uninstalled the app in July, would there actually be any hope that there might still be something remaining?


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## fotf17 (Sep 25, 2017)

Chaparral said:


> How far apart do they live?
> Were the sexting?
> Has you sex life changed in the last couple of years?
> It takes three to five years to get back to a kind of normal. You will always doubt hers and others honesty. If she says it's raining you will want to look outside.
> Hard to believe someone loves you and will do this behind your back isn't it?


No sexting as far as I can tell. I can't prove it, and have to take her word for it for now, but I've known her, her personality, and her body language for almost 20 years, and the vibe I get is that these things did not occur.

No, sex life hadn't really changed over the last couple years - we were never the most frequent (on average maybe once a week), but her libido has always been lower than mine. One benefit to all of this is that our bout of hysterical bonding has transitioned into more frequent intimacy - maybe every 2-3 days. 

It's reassuring to hear that its 3-5 years. I'm well within the "still dealing with it" phase, and it's ok.


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## fotf17 (Sep 25, 2017)

TX-SC said:


> My advice may not be quite as to-the-point as FJ's. The fact that your wife is showing remorse and shame for what she did is a good sign. The false start isn't unheard of, or really unexpected. The problem here is that what you are told, 99% of the time is only a sliver of what has been going on. It's called trickle truth. But, there are times when what you know is accurate and there are no more facts to uncover.
> 
> The recommendation for a lie detector test should be followed. I'm not sure that a separation and no contact is in order, but you will have to make that call for your own healing. You and the OMW should compare notes to see if there was a potential for them to meet. Any out of town trips or periods of being missing?
> 
> Also, as someone asked before, what was the nature of the affair? Sexting? Pictures? I love you's"?


It's reassuring to hear about the false start - and a good way to put it. That's kind of how I was rationalizing without calling it that. 

There have been plenty of good signs, I think, and these have made me pretty optimistic overall. But yeah, I'm afraid of the trickle-truth, and she's revealed essentially nothing about the content of their conversations. I'm sure there was stuff there that would hurt to read. She was good at deleting it and hiding it, and yes, I know I know what that usually means...

There were no out-of-town trips or periods of being missing. I don't think that sort of thing could happen without me noticing, largely due to the nature of our lives, our frequent contact during the day, and the nature of her job which impedes any kind of missing-in-actions. That's not to say it's impossible, but very much improbable. I think this is likewise on the OM's part as well, from what I've heard about him, his employment, and his family. 

Sexting - I don't think so, though as I said in a previous response, I don't have proof. My instinct tells me that there was none. But my instinct has been wrong before. 
Pictures - not that i've found, though I'm not sure I'm always looking in the right places on her phone.
She tells me she never said any "I love you's." I believe her on this and don't think the relationship had come to this yet.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Facebook + EA + Lying + Deception = PA!

If I were you, after I had been lied to the first time, I'd be done! But then again, you're you and I'm me!

Why do you think you were lied to? Because she doesn't want you to find out the extent of her involvement with this POSOM!

I don't think that you can argue with the fact that with the mere distance between them, that things definitely got rather stoked, humid and hot in your absence!*


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

"she tells me she resisted and had no intention of pursuing". 

She is a proven liar. You have absolutely no reason to believe this. Realize that he wouldn't have asked if he didn't think there was a good chance that she would.

You need to investigate further. You seem to have a gut feeling your wife is being evasive with her work phone. But you haven't done a thing to investigate because you are admittedly fearful of losing your wife.

I have heard many times on here that to save one's marriage, one has to be willing to lose it. You are not in that mindset. You're letting fear of loss rule your decisions to not investigate.

What your wife has done is worthy of investigation. That's obvious. If there is resistance to your investigation by her in any way, it basically guarantees you don't have the full truth. I don't think it's in your best interest to proceed without knowing the full truth.

I am strongly supporting the advice to give her a polygraph. Perhaps that can give you the confidence to move forward. 
Before you spring the polygraph, you should be willing to divorce her if she says no. I wouldn't recommend putting her to the test if you are unwilling to proceed with a divorce if she says no. Never bluff on divorce. Never trust what you can't verify with a cheater. And your wife IS clearly a cheater. Whether or not she's been physical is another matter.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

When she was lying to your face, were you able to see it in her eyes at all?


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

fotf17, 
Betrayal changes a marriage irrevocably. Neither of you get to go back to who you were before. It doesn't matter how much you both wish for it. 

I get that you think you're on top of this, but I wanted to highlight a few things that would concern me (with the benefit of hindsight):
- Stopping talking about the affair because your wife doesn't like it, because it makes her feel uncomfortable to be reminded of her shame is a bad idea. Your wife is using your natural desire not to cause her pain/discomfort to avoid facing up to what she did. I'm not talking about constantly harping on about the EA, I'm talking about addressing the core issue. Being sorry is nowhere near acknowledging (and then dealing with) the character flaw that enabled the actions. Cheating on a spouse requires capacity and then a specific series of decisions. The old "I was walking along and I was so bored, oops, I fell down into a hole", doesn't cut it. The true story is that he/she was going around with a shovel digging small holes which got bigger and bigger until one day, one was big enough and then they climbed into it. And unless they throw out the shovel, you're probably going to find yourselves back there again (listen to the voice of experience here). 

- What your wife did went directly against her marriage vows. Don't let her minimise it. There may not have been sex, but deceit and disloyalty practised with another person is undeniable infidelity. To my mind, you are now under no obligation to view your marriage as a currently active contract. Should you choose to do so, then that is a gracious gift from you. Forgiveness and reconciliation cost the BS a great deal. (I found this article  The cost of forgiving infidelity very helpful in this regard) And your wife should see it like that. But from what you've written, I'm not seeing gratitude from her. I'm seeing - "I want this unpleasant experience to be over and done with as soon as possible. So I can get my life back." 



Evinrude58 said:


> I have heard many times on here that to save one's marriage, one has to be willing to lose it. You are not in that mindset. You're letting fear of loss rule your decisions to not investigate.


This is very, very true. This isn't about making empty threats. This is about looking at the person you trusted most, who has hurt you more than anyone else ever has, and saying "Unless you can convince me that you are all-in with every part of you, no matter how unpleasant or painful this process is going to be ... why should I risk myself more than I already have?" 

Thinking of you. I am sorry that you are here.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

fotf17 said:


> I have been plenty of good signs, I think, and these have made me pretty optimistic overall. But yeah, I'm afraid of the trickle-truth, and *she's revealed essentially nothing about the content of their conversations.* I'm sure there was stuff there that would hurt to read. She was good at deleting it and hiding it, and yes, I know I know what that usually means...


How is this an acceptable way to proceed in R?

Like a marriage, for Reconciliation to be successful it requires two committed participants. Your wife has to actively re-build the trust that she broke. She has to replace her affair behaviours, such as secrecy, and instead be open and honest (as she most likely once was). One argument we hear from Waywards is that they are "protecting" their spouse from the hurtful things that were written and said. The reality is that they'd rather not revisit the depths of their betrayal.

You have a right to know as much or as little about their contents so that you know exactly what you're forgiving. 

What do you think is the barrier to her being forthcoming?


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

azteca1986 said:


> How is this an acceptable way to proceed in R?
> 
> Like a marriage, for Reconciliation to be successful it requires two committed participants. Your wife has to actively re-build the trust that she broke. She has to replace her affair behaviours, such as secrecy, and instead be open and honest (as she most likely once was). One argument we hear from Waywards is that they are "protecting" their spouse from the hurtful things that were written and said. The reality is that they'd rather not revisit the depths of their betrayal.
> 
> ...


Undoubtedly, this is her way of minimizing damages. She knows that what she wrote will hurt her husband and she is ashamed at having done so. To relive that and hurt her husband even more is, in her mind, not acceptable.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

GusPolinski said:


> When she was lying to your face, were you able to see it in her eyes at all?


OP said "No sexting as far as I can tell. I can't prove it, and have to take her word for it for now, but I've known her, her personality, and her body language for almost 20 years, and the vibe I get is that these things did not occur." 

But he could not detect the lying, which means he can't read her as well as he thinks.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

fotf17 said:


> ...if I keep harping on it, it might push her away...


Honestly, I'd _try_ to push her away just to see how tightly she holds on. If she doesn't hold on, she wasn't worth keeping. 

Also, you _need_ to keep harping on it, possibly for several years, just for _you_ to get the answers and closure that you need. Anything short of that is rugsweeping, meaning that the issue will rear its ugly head again 10 years from now. That's something neither of you want. The day she is willing to put up with your harping is the day that real reconciliation begins.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

I always hear the word remorse but it's normally regret at getting caught. 

You were smart to expose. You should have done it upfront and you wouldn't have gotten a double dose.

Cheaters lie a lot and your wife is typical.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

fotf17 said:


> Anyway, the only way I found about their continued contact was because I had tracked down and informed his wife of the situation. I mulled it over for a while, and eventually did it. *My wife was pissed*, OM’s wife was grateful.


I found it interesting that your wife was pissed. This is very telling. Exactly what was she pissed about?


Pissed that you interfered with her contact with her old BF, ruining her fun.
Pissed that now she knew it was finally going to be over? 
Pissed that you got him in trouble? Being protective of him.

Please tell us what she said to you, that would give us her mindset at the time.


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

Maybe a consequence of her A would be to contact her HR dept. and let them know she has been using company property inappropriately. Maybe they will make her turn her phone in and go through it. They probably wouldn't let you see the content but if actions were taken against her you know she was up to something. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

OP, you have been given good advice so far. However, in case you want to add my approach here it is.

I told my wife that I was not going to play **** Tracy or Sherlock Holmes because you have already proven yourself guilty. I am going to start building myself up so that I can live with you or without you and in time I will know if you are not making me your number one man to the exclusion of all others. The burden of repairing this is all yours as you are the one that betrayed.

Then I got started building myself up so that I could live with her or without her. It is hard, that is for sure, but I was not going to be spending my time trying to catch her in another betrayal as one is enough for me to start getting myself stronger in many ways.

OP, your wife has proven that you were not number one in her life, in fact not even number two, *so she is either going to prove her remorseful words by actions or you have no obligation to treat her as a valuable and trustworthy wife.*


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Tatsuhiko said:


> Honestly, I'd _try_ to push her away just to see how tightly she holds on. *If she doesn't hold on, she wasn't worth keeping.
> 
> *Also, you _need_ to keep harping on it, possibly for several years, just for _you_ to get the answers and closure that you need. Anything short of that is rugsweeping, meaning that the issue will rear its ugly head again 10 years from now. That's something neither of you want. The day she is willing to put up with your harping is the day that real reconciliation begins.


She's the one who has to work to keep you, not the other way around.


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## GatorXP (Oct 1, 2017)

Mr Blunt said:


> OP, you have been given good advice so far. However, in case you want to add my approach here it is.
> 
> I told my wife that I was not going to play **** Tracy or Sherlock Holmes because you have already proven yourself guilty. I am going to start building myself up so that I can live with you or without you and in time I will know if you are not making me your number one man to the exclusion of all others. The burden of repairing this is all yours as you are the one that betrayed.
> 
> ...


Mr. Blunt is more on point here than most and I would like to continue to offer some advice in that direction. 

You most definitely should work on becoming a more independent person and be prepared to continue life with or without your current relationship. This will benefit YOU and most likely current and most definitely any future relationship.

2ndly you'll need to come to some realizations to help alleviate all this fear your dealing with. Foremost your current relationship is over. Your wives EA has exposed the fact she has not been honest with you about her thoughts and feelings. You've been living with an impostor. Only being shown what her ego deems as safe or appropriate. You can see where a partnership is not possible under these conditions.

Also this fear that your struggling with about her still being in contact with him is a dead end. Prohibition is a failed paradigm my friend as you have already seen. The problem is between u2 there is no other. 

Now I wholeheartedly suggest you give your wife first crack at being your life partner/teammate in your next successful relationship. (Her only true crime is most likely ignorance.) You both need to redefine what that is. Your life partner/teammate should be your best friend, not afraid to share anything because they are their own individual person committed to your partnership. 

Relationships are a major portion of our lives yet most people put little thought or effort into making sure they have a good one. I suggest if it is important to you the the rest of your life contains a very successful relationship. Become a student of them. I would suggest the book, Conscious Loving: The Journey to Co-Commitment, as the place to start, but don't stop there.

Understand what you want, how that relationship works, what it looks like and what it does not, the energy and factors that effect it.

Getting to this wake up moment is no small task and usually requires a crisis event for us to get there, but also intent. She may or may not be willing to take the required journey or yourself. Her, Yourself or both may choose to fall back into old patterns....that my friend is where your fear should be centered

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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Take farsidejunkys advice. She does not know what she has done to you


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## GatorXP (Oct 1, 2017)

Taxman said:


> Take farsidejunkys advice. She does not know what she has done to you


The past no longer matters. Pain and suffering are the only things that now exist there. The only thing that matters now is do they want and are they able to move forward in an effective way. Infidelity is already confirmed, as long as malicious intent isn't suspected 

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## GatorXP (Oct 1, 2017)

GatorXP said:


> The past no longer matters. Pain and suffering are the only things that now exist there. The only thing that matters now is do they want and are they able to move forward in an effective way. Infidelity is already confirmed, as long as malicious intent isn't suspected
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


life events are opportunities to grow, expand, experience, and develop. In some cases, it seems in retrospect that there was actually this unconscious purpose behind the event, as though our unconscious knew that something important had to be learned and, painful as it was, it was the only way it could be brought into experience.

- Hawkins 

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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@fotf17 She didn't have sex with OM? We'll take this on faith for the moment...

Why did she not have sex with him? Because she couldn't cheat on you, physically?

Or because of logistical difficulties?

Counselling (individual and as a couple) would be a good option, plus the polygraph as recommended by @farsidejunky.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

TX-SC said:


> Undoubtedly, this is her way of minimizing damages. She knows that what she wrote will hurt her husband and she is ashamed at having done so. To relive that and hurt her husband even more is, in her mind, not acceptable.


Or, she's covering her butt.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Malaise said:


> Or, she's covering her butt.


Yes, or that.


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## fotf17 (Sep 25, 2017)

So, this teaches me to post on a friday, and then not have time to respond over the weekend. So much to go through - But thank you all, for all of your advice (especially that which I didn't realize I didn't want to hear, but needed to hear... if that makes sense.. lol), inspiration, and motivation. 



Mizzbak said:


> fotf17,
> Betrayal changes a marriage irrevocably. Neither of you get to go back to who you were before. It doesn't matter how much you both wish for it.
> 
> I get that you think you're on top of this, but I wanted to highlight a few things that would concern me (with the benefit of hindsight):
> ...


Thank you - the shovel analogy is a good one, and a good way to put what I've come to realize about the process of the EA. In the early days of discovery, when we talked about it, it was said by her that the the development of the relationship wasn't something intended, and that it happened was a surprise to them both. I've read "Not Just Friends," so I know how cliche this sounds (honestly, this whole thing is just a textbook example of an affair). But I've come to look at it not as a thing that happened naturally, but a series of conscientious decisions she and he made. A series of small holes being dug, as you say. A series of decisions with the only intention being betrayal and the compromising of our relationship.

Everyone here is right about being unafraid to lose the relationship is sometimes the only way to save it. I'm coming around to that mindset, I think. It feels like it's taken awhile, for sure, but its coming. 

And again, most here are right - while I've felt I've had a handle on things, its clear I don't. The recovery of this situation has, at least it looks like to me now, a pick me dance. I honestly haven't had the backbone or spine that I should have, and if I could, I would go about things differently in the past. But it also means I can go about things differently in the times to come, and the things I ought to do.

_"Unless you can convince me that you are all-in with every part of you, no matter how unpleasant or painful this process is going to be ... why should I risk myself more than I already have?"_ I'm going to use these exact words.


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## fotf17 (Sep 25, 2017)

azteca1986 said:


> How is this an acceptable way to proceed in R?
> 
> Like a marriage, for Reconciliation to be successful it requires two committed participants. Your wife has to actively re-build the trust that she broke. She has to replace her affair behaviours, such as secrecy, and instead be open and honest (as she most likely once was). One argument we hear from Waywards is that they are "protecting" their spouse from the hurtful things that were written and said. The reality is that they'd rather not revisit the depths of their betrayal.
> 
> ...


Honestly, shame, I think. She's ashamed of what she did, and ashamed of her behavior, and likely what she said. It's hard to face the mirror sometimes, and I can at least empathize with that.


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## fotf17 (Sep 25, 2017)

manwithnoname said:


> OP said "No sexting as far as I can tell. I can't prove it, and have to take her word for it for now, but I've known her, her personality, and her body language for almost 20 years, and the vibe I get is that these things did not occur."
> 
> But he could not detect the lying, which means he can't read her as well as he thinks.


This is a good point, and I've thought on it over the weekend. I think the difference here is that when she lied to me in June, I _wanted _to believe her. So very very much. I took what she was telling me at face value. 

Now, I'm much more hyper-vigilant, and take everything she says with a grain of salt and suspicion. I haven't revisited the sexting thing since the early days though, and it was definitely during the period of me wanting (and needing) to believe what she said. I'll be re-addressing this in the very near future.


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## fotf17 (Sep 25, 2017)

The Middleman said:


> I found it interesting that your wife was pissed. This is very telling. Exactly what was she pissed about?
> 
> 
> Pissed that you interfered with her contact with her old BF, ruining her fun.
> ...


At the time, and again, this was early, her reaction to it was one of pulling the old-switcheroos. It was on me for spending too much time looking towards the past and not focusing on the future. I called b.s. on that. But I think in reality, she was subconsciously pissed about that her actions had real-life consequences. That this couldn't just be forgotten about, and that real lives were getting destroyed by her and his' actions (The OM and his wife are headed towards divorce). 

In terms of your list:

Fun - no, I don't think she viewed this as that. I think she was very remorseful she hurt me, and truly felt bad about it. (Of course, that didn't alter her decision-making process very much during June.)
Finally going to be over - I think this had something to do with it. The finality of it all.
Protective of him - yes, this played a role as well.


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## fotf17 (Sep 25, 2017)

Malaise said:


> She's the one who has to work to keep you, not the other way around.


This is totally true, and I've made the mistake of not keeping this in mind. In reviewing the recovery of the last few months, I've come to see, in large part because of this thread, that the work hasn't been focused on me. Too much of it has been focused on her, and I've allowed her to get away with not addressing the situation to my satisfaction.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

fotf17 said:


> Honestly, shame, I think. She's ashamed of what she did, and ashamed of her behavior, and likely what she said. It's hard to face the mirror sometimes, and I can at least empathize with that.


It's possible to be both shameful for what she did and very fearful of the consequences of telling the whole truth.


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## fotf17 (Sep 25, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> @fotf17 She didn't have sex with OM? We'll take this on faith for the moment...
> 
> Why did she not have sex with him? Because she couldn't cheat on you, physically?
> 
> ...


Like I said above, I wanted (and need) to believe that she wouldn't have done it. But what makes me pretty certain that she didn't do it is (1) primarily logistical difficulties and (2) her outlook on sex and physical affection. 

Like I said elsewhere above too, the distance between the two was such a distance that makes it improbable, but not impossible. The distance compounded by the nature of both their jobs makes this chance even more improbable, almost impossible. The nature of our lives, and the level of communication between her and I, make spontaneous rendezvouses nearly impossible. 

In terms of her outlook on sex... well, she's always had the lower libido, and sex is not quite a priority for her. That's not to say that we don't (or didn't) have a relatively vigorous and satisfying sex life. I can't see her engaging in an affair where the goal was sex - she's just not wired that way. She did not want for orgasms from me, and I always prioritize her pleasure in bed while trying to be creative and introducing new things. She wouldn't have sought sex for those reasons. 

I can see her engaging in an affair where emotional desires are met while a barrier was in place to prevent it "going that far." These barriers were the distance, the work schedule, and our hectic life. Which is why, I think, she embraced this EA. 

If he lived in town, well ****, who knows then.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Are you saying that the only reason ( maybe ) it didn't go physical was distance?

If that's true, and the intent was there, you may as well consider it done.


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## fotf17 (Sep 25, 2017)

Malaise said:


> It's possible to be both shameful for what she did and very fearful of the consequences of telling the whole truth.


You are absolutely right as well. I think she is very much fearful of consequences. 

Honestly, I don't know what I'd do if I found out she sexted him or something. Her mis-truth so far has me questioning so much of our relationship in the past now too... 

But what do I say when I ask her about it? When she says "I don't know why you need to know, why you want to keep digging. I'm working so hard on us, and trying to show you how much I love you and want us to succeed." In essence, when she claims that she's the one looking at building the future and I am not.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

fotf17 said:


> You are absolutely right as well. I think she is very much fearful of consequences.
> 
> Honestly, I don't know what I'd do if I found out she sexted him or something. Her mis-truth so far has me questioning so much of our relationship in the past now too...
> 
> *But what do I say when I ask her about it? When she says "I don't know why you need to know, why you want to keep digging. I'm working so hard on us, and trying to show you how much I love you and want us to succeed." *In essence, when she claims that she's the one looking at building the future and I am not.


Ask her why she's stonewalling and deflecting.

Ask her why she won't take responsibility and help you to heal from HER actions.

And I'll add what I said before: She's the one who has to work to keep you, not the other way around.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

fotf17 said:


> Like I said above, I wanted (and need) to believe that she wouldn't have done it. But what makes me pretty certain that she didn't do it is (1) primarily logistical difficulties and (2) her outlook on sex and physical affection.
> 
> Like I said elsewhere above too, the distance between the two was such a distance that makes it improbable, but not impossible. The distance compounded by the nature of both their jobs makes this chance even more improbable, almost impossible. The nature of our lives, and the level of communication between her and I, make spontaneous rendezvouses nearly impossible.
> 
> ...


With all do respect there are literally thousands of threads on here and other sites where the previously low libido wife became a porn star with this other guy. Lots of times it's because the fantasy lets them cut lose. They usually have underlying issues with sex and intimacy that contributes to them seeking out a shallow relationship precisely to be able to let go in the fantasy. You really have no idea. We have also read threads were people fly halfway around the country to have one or two days of sex. Your best bet is to not write anything off yet. Detach and take the emotion out of it, then start over trying to figure out what really happened. You need to be sure of one thing, you really don't know the truth. 

Unfortunately this is the mess your wife's actions had made for you. My feeling is she is not telling you because if she did it would be a lot worse.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@fotf17 Polygraph. Arrange one for her.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

You're a man ask yourself what was in it for him? Most of the time guys want some sort of sexual contact. Especially if he is married. I hope you told his spouse by the way, that is the right an honorable thing to do. It also blows up the fantasy real quick and gives you another set of eyes to stop that contact. She deserves to know. 

Assuming he is married his wife probably provides most of his needs, so most of the time these type of guys just give some emotional nonsense to get the women to give them some sort of sexual response. "Your husband takes you for granted, he doesn't love you like I do, we should have been the ones to be together". Then it's send me a pic of your breasts. Just lovely wonderful romance right. /s Yet he doesn't have to smell her bad breath in the morning, put up with he moodiness. Nor would he want to, that he does for his wife. Women like your wife are such suckers.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

fotf17 said:


> I can't see her engaging in an affair where the goal was sex - she's just not wired that way.


When a woman get so far into an EA that it becomes a large focus in their life, they will do almost anything to keep it going. Lie to their betrayed spouse, deception, plan secret meeting, and yes - have sex with the AP to keep him in her life - regardless of the consequences. Sex may not be the primary motive for starting the EA, but sex has been used as a motive for continuing to get the praise of the AP and keep the affair going.

As for what was said during the EA between them. You have to know for yourself in order to move on. YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOU ARE FORGIVING. Without the total truth, your mind will take over and fill in the gaps with the most damaging material imaginable. R will never be real. If you don't know what you are forgiving how can forgiveness be real?


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

fotf17 said:


> You are absolutely right as well. I think she is very much fearful of consequences.
> 
> Honestly, I don't know what I'd do if I found out she sexted him or something. Her mis-truth so far has me questioning so much of our relationship in the past now too...
> 
> But what do I say when I ask her about it? When she says "I don't know why you need to know, why you want to keep digging. I'm working so hard on us, and trying to show you how much I love you and want us to succeed." In essence, when she claims that she's the one looking at building the future and I am not.


The appropriate response is: "Why should I have to justify myself in asking these simple questions? If you respect me and want to strengthen our marriage, then my asking should be enough reason for you to answer honestly and openly. I appreciate the work you are doing so far, but let's not have our success hindered by your lack of transparency." 

Advocating for your needs as a person should never succumb to what her thoughts are regarding your needs as a couple. Those needs can co-exist.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

fotf17 said:


> You are absolutely right as well. I think she is very much fearful of consequences.
> 
> Honestly, I don't know what I'd do if I found out she sexted him or something. Her mis-truth so far has me questioning so much of our relationship in the past now too...
> 
> But what do I say when I ask her about it? When she says "I don't know why you need to know, why you want to keep digging. I'm working so hard on us, and trying to show you how much I love you and want us to succeed." In essence, when she claims that she's the one looking at building the future and I am not.


"I need to know/see what was said between you because at the moment my imagination is filling in the blanks. If all I have to depend on is my imagination, I don't see a future for us".


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

fotf17 said:


> *But what do I say when I ask her about it? * When she says "I don't know why you need to know, why you want to keep digging. I'm working so hard on us, and trying to show you how much I love you and want us to succeed." In essence, when she claims that she's the one looking at building the future and I am not.


 You say you need to know what you are forgiving her for, all of it, every single thing, because if something comes out after you start to R you get set back right to square one, and you're not willing to go through that again and that would be a dealbreaker.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

fotf17 said:


> Honestly, shame, I think. She's ashamed of what she did, and ashamed of her behavior, and likely what she said. It's hard to face the mirror sometimes, and I can at least empathize with that.


I can understand that, but in order for her to show remorse, to empathise with you and what she's done to you and your relationship, look in the mirror she must.

You've stated you feel that R has stalled, and most likely you feel that way as your WW has been less than forthcoming about the contents of her communication. She's the one dictating the terms of R. Which won't work. Recently your WW took the wheel of your marriage, chose to have a secret boyfriend and drove your marriage off a cliff. At this time it's best if she lets you drive for a while.

A wise old poster on here used to say that you'll know when you have the truth because what you have will make sense. Currently, she's withholding a lot and a what little she has said appears heavily sanitised. This amount of guilt and shame doesn't make sense.

The reason she has to be honest about their joint communication is threefold. 

1. You need to know what you're forgiving, at a level of detail of your choosing. That's your call and yours alone.

2. To re-build trust - At this point, trust has to be earned. Whilst in her EA she and her secret boyfriend were conspiring together _as a team_ with you on the outside. Now, she has to prove that she wants to be in a team with you. This means that she has to be open and honest with you and cannot continue to keep secrets with her old teammate.

3. She has to stop being so self-centred. Being selfish is a key reason your marriage is in the mess it's in. She has to put the marriage first. She lost sight of that during her affair. Putting the marriage first and being honest about their communications is going to make he feeling uncomfortable and guilty and shameful. This is a consequence of the affair that she put off while the affair made her feel good. This isn;t about her. It's about the good of the marriage.


fotf17 said:


> You are absolutely right as well. I think she is very much fearful of consequences.
> 
> Honestly, *I don't know what I'd do if I found out she sexted him or something.* Her mis-truth so far has me questioning so much of our relationship in the past now too...


I realise this is just a figure of speech, but take a step back and think what this communicates - if you "don't know what you'd do" then, neither does she. If you've let her know, even indirectly, that sexting would be a big deal for you she has absolutely no motivation for telling you the truth.

It's become a truth around here that often what kills the marriage is not the affair, but the continued lies after DDay. This includes lies of omission.

The good news is that it's in your power to provide a safe environment for your WW to begin to be honest. You might find it better to change tack. Rather than sexting being a possible deal-breaker you should tell her that continuing to hide information and being honest with you is what is guaranteed to lead to divorce. It's the same behaviour she exhibited during the affair, the same behaviour she exhibited whilst going to couples counselling whilst continuing the affair, despite claiming to have ended things. There's no way to have a marriage with her continued secrecy. 


> But what do I say when I ask her about it? When she says "I don't know why you need to know, why you want to keep digging. I'm working so hard on us, and trying to show you how much I love you and want us to succeed." In essence, when she claims that she's the one looking at building the future and I am not.


I work in advertising. We like to believe we practice the Art of Persuasion. Persuasion is positive, it makes you feel good about yourself. 

The evil-twin of persuasion is manipulation. There's a very simple trick to help you know when you're being manipulated; it's the residual feeling you're left with. Generally, with manipulation, these will be either fear or guilt. She's not "building the future". She's refusing to look at the (her) past. 


fotf17 said:


> I'm pretty sure she doesn't want to reopen and constantly revisit the situation, while I'm afraid... well, afraid of a lot of things... if I keep harping on it, it might push her away, afraid of ruining otherwise good days and/or times... that sort of thing.


Here you can see the effects of her dictating R and manipulation.

I should point out that all her behaviour is typical. Straight for the cheater's script; lies of omission, manipulation, gas-lighting, deflection. All of these together have you R stalled because you are still to get The Truth.


fotf17 said:


> I can't see her engaging in an affair where the goal was sex - she's just not wired that way. She did not want for orgasms from me, and I always prioritize her pleasure in bed while trying to be creative and introducing new things. She wouldn't have sought sex for those reasons.
> 
> I can see her engaging in an affair where emotional desires are met while a barrier was in place to prevent it "going that far." These barriers were the distance, the work schedule, and our hectic life. Which is why, I think, she embraced this EA.


A couple of things here. Firstly, don't get bogged down thinking that she had her affair because there was necessarily something lacking in the marriage. More often it's because there was something lacking in her. Secondly, we quite often find that many of the people who engage in affairs weren't looking for an affair (or sex) either. They "just happened". Sex is the currency of affair. Typically, men lavish compliments and attention in exchange for sex. The sexual component can happen without either of them physically meeting. A couple of years back on TAM, a Welsh guy on TAM watched his wife trash their marriage, break up a family with two small children for some guy she had yet to meet in person. You may want to believe that your WW drew the line at having her emotional desires met, but I think you're being naive if you think that's all _he_ was in it for. Have you ever asked her what he got out of their affair? He's an ex-boyfriend. Things tend to jump to where they were before far quicker than with someone with which she has no history. 

I have no idea if they met in person, but I'm highly suspicious of the long phone calls. That's a major time investment for a guy who's getting nothing much in return. 

Going back to where we started I have no doubt she feels guilt and shame. In no small part because once she found out there were others and she'd most likely just been played. She has to accept you're both in this place because of her choices. And she has to start making better, less self-centred ones if you're to move forward together.


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## Jus260 (Mar 24, 2016)

fotf17 said:


> Anyway, the only way I found about their continued contact was because I had tracked down and informed his wife of the situation.


What did his wife say she found in the messages she discivered after you told her?


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## fotf17 (Sep 25, 2017)

Jus260 said:


> What did his wife say she found in the messages she discivered after you told her?


She didn't find any - I believe he was in the practice of deleting everything, and my mistake was not telling her immediately, so he had about a month to get his ducks in a row if he worked under the assumption that I would eventually tell her.


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## fotf17 (Sep 25, 2017)

azteca1986 said:


> I can understand that, but in order for her to show remorse, to empathise with you and what she's done to you and your relationship, look in the mirror she must....


Just a quick note to say thank you Azteca for the well-thought out and thorough post... There's a lot to digest in there, so I'm going to spend some time to re-read it and think on it. Will respond eventually.

As a side note, is it possible to tag a user in a post rather than just quoting them? How would that be done?


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Just use @ and their username
@fotf17


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## SkyFive (Apr 4, 2019)

*Your story is my story*, we are in the same boat and even in the same seat.

I'm exactly where you are now. I'll save you the details of my wife's emotional affair instead I'll relate to you my rational in dealing with it. First, I gathered the evidence to determine the scope/size of the affair. Like yours, no evidence/indication of pictures being exchanged or physical contact just texts, emails and long long frequent (daily) phone calls. They were about five or six month's in, just getting into the innuendo compliments and ego stroking. We all know where that leads.

I place a very high value on my marriage of 26 years so I analyzed the situation from every perspective including hers, before I confronted her about it. I waited until the weekend when I knew there would be no interruptions. I simply said 'there is something we need to talk about" and I felt my face get very hot. Of course she denied it at first, "just friends" "your over reacting", so on and so forth. I tried the diplomatic approach first; end it now and all is forgiven. She wanted to continue to converse with him so I had to reconsider my approach. The following day, after I was able to get my mind around it I told her that she had a decision to make, him or me, no middle ground. I told her I would forgive her regardless of her decision but, I would contact the wife of the other man because I was not going to be the only loser, it was going to cost him too. (<< letting go, see how that works? it ain't easy though) Additionally I sent the OM a email and told him who I was and that he was about to destroy a 26 year marriage and that I was available should he want to call me, I included my phone number but the call never came. He was smart enough to figure out what was about to happen so I think it was a mutual agreement between he and my wife to discontinue this behavior. All has been quite for four going on five months. Thank you Lord, thank you Jesus!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

SkyFive said:


> *Your story is my story*, we are in the same boat and even in the same seat.
> 
> I'm exactly where you are now. I'll save you the details of my wife's emotional affair instead I'll relate to you my rational in dealing with it. First, I gathered the evidence to determine the scope/size of the affair. Like yours, no evidence/indication of pictures being exchanged or physical contact just texts, emails and long long frequent (daily) phone calls. They were about five or six month's in, just getting into the innuendo compliments and ego stroking. We all know where that leads.
> 
> I place a very high value on my marriage of 26 years so I analyzed the situation from every perspective including hers, before I confronted her about it. I waited until the weekend when I knew there would be no interruptions. I simply said 'there is something we need to talk about" and I felt my face get very hot. Of course she denied it at first, "just friends" "your over reacting", so on and so forth. I tried the diplomatic approach first; end it now and all is forgiven. She wanted to continue to converse with him so I had to reconsider my approach. The following day, after I was able to get my mind around it I told her that she had a decision to make, him or me, no middle ground. I told her I would forgive her regardless of her decision but, I would contact the wife of the other man because I was not going to be the only loser, it was going to cost him too. (<< letting go, see how that works? it ain't easy though) Additionally I sent the OM a email and told him who I was and that he was about to destroy a 26 year marriage and that I was available should he want to call me, I included my phone number but the call never came. He was smart enough to figure out what was about to happen so I think it was a mutual agreement between he and my wife to discontinue this behavior. All has been quite for four going on five months. Thank you Lord, thank you Jesus!


Hello, @SkyFive. The thread you have replied to is a very old one, two years old, in fact.

In order to ensure your post gets the response it deserves, please start a thread of your own in Coping With Infidelity. 

I am now closing this thread as it is a Zombie thread.


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