# Big fight



## katies (May 19, 2015)

although we are fine today, we keep having the same fight it seems. Although it's been a while since the last one.
A 29 year old woman who apparently must be at the gym hubby works out at friended him on FB. Her husband always works out there as well and he and hubby are buddies. This was a few days ago. I saw the "so and so are now friends" feed on my FB. I just sighed to myself, wondering why she friended him. She is one year older than our son! The guy she married was her former teacher and is 50. 
Then, at the bball game last night, they said hi to each other (ignoring me, I was her teacher in junior high) and then I saw him glancing at her again.

We proceeded to have a good evening out with our friends and when we got back I mentioned that it felt threatening to me that he is friends with her. I said you always mention everybody else at the gym, why not her? when he explained how he knew her. 

so we went around and around, he told me I Was stalking him (he obviously doesn't understand how FB feed works). Then he said I caused my own pain by starting all this. and then he apologized and then not and said I drove him to say those things. And things were said and crap and I had had enough and left the bed. Then he apologized.

What the hell is the answer here? I don't think he's having an affair. But why even go there. I would NEVER be friends with someone like that on FB. She obviously looked him up as they have no shared friends. WTH?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Okay, politically incorrect answer here.

Apologies to bleeding hearts.

Rather than a bitter response, think of this as an educated response. I'm only offering my opinion. 

Many young women today are well versed in how to get and keep a man. They are well educated in the fact that men are visual. They know they are attractive and what that means. They know how to have great sex and aren't afraid to have it with whomever they choose. 

They also enjoy the attention that a man gives them whom they would never sleep with. He doesn't know it, because she will just keep him nibbling at the bait, thinking he has a chance. hahahaha. surrrre..he does. 

And as added fun....it sure does screw with your head and marriage. Did you give her a hard time in middle school? Yeah, many today, men and women will find a way to get revenge. There is little they won't do and they think it is fun. 

Laws today are such that a wife can have a child and get child support. She can then no-fault divorce and find another man who she believes will be a better provider. As she gets older, she will settle down with a man who has never had a woman with such sexual experience, but has plenty of money and a good reputation. 

All of that and they can have a great career, too. 

In other words, many women today know they can have it all. So, they go for it.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Since she likes older men, which is why she married one, I'd say you have reason to wonder. Not be concerned, but wonder. I think your husband shouldn't have argued with you, he should have simply ''unfriended'' her if he saw how upset you were. If you're a normally reasonable person, and have been married a while, he should put your feelings above what some random chick at a gym thinks. 

I have friends who are men, and my fiance is mutual friends with most of them. But, if I started adding men I meet at the gym to my FB friend list, no matter their age, my fiance would wonder. She's not interested in being friends, that's my guess. She's interested in getting male attention, and your husband shouldn't have accepted the friend request. He should unfriend her if he cares at all about your feelings. The fact that he made a big deal about it is telling, though.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

From what you have written. Is it typical in your marriage to have arguments like this?

If my wife told me that she was uneasy with a female friend, I would drop that friend out of respect for my wife.

His arguments and his defending the friendship makes me a little uneasy to tell the truth.

Maybe not an affair - yet. The old saying applies - "This is not Hell.........but you can see it from here."


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> If my wife told me that she was uneasy with a female friend, I would drop that friend out of respect for my wife.
> 
> His arguments and his defending the friendship makes me a little uneasy to tell the truth.


Totally this. His reaction to your reaction OP, is the problem to me.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

I agree his reaction is like WTF? He HATES that I look at social media - once I saw him at a community lunch sitting next to a gal who later came up and hugged him while we were together and I was livid. He said she's just a jovial happy person. He accused me of looking at his LinkedIn page. I haven't looked at it in 2 years. But WHO CARES. He is a BS too! I would NOT CARE if he looked at my stuff. He doesnt' think it's healthy for married couples to do that. Well guess what, we're not the typical married couple. 
He said if you don't trust me lets just end it. And then back pedaled. He just doesn't know how to NOT TAKE OFFENSE to anything I say. He said what's this about. I said EMPATHY!!!


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Some woman collect facebook friends like trophies. He may have just been polite to accept the request. No harm done. 

Is she a gym rat in which she can offer fitness advice? In which case no harm done. 

Or he is flattered he befriended him, there is possibly a little sexual tension on his side while she just wants male attention and never will PA or EA your husband. 

I vote for the last one. 

50 yo guy here.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Thanks blue. After all we've been through I can't handle much more. No less defensiveness instead if empathy.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Who needs this crap. As we age our ego gets more brittle by the day.

He knows better. 

When my wife stops being jealous of me is the day I would get really worried.

I went to just one H.S. Class Reunion. It was my 25th. I never had any contact with any of my former classmates. Why only one Reunion? As soon as we arrived at the 25th, a former High School girlfriend of mine screamed and jumped into my arms, her legs wrapped around my waist. My wife was horrified. I was dead meat.

He should be happy that his wife is protective of him. All within reason, of course.

I wish you the best.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Being we've been through 3 affairs between us, I think ours is a case of exercising extreme precaution. Always protecting boundaries, if not for ourselves, but the feelings of safety for our spouse.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

You'll have to hope for those who've reconciled to come by with opinions. This is beyond most of us. I figured as much. 

I'm going to suggest the old standby. Please, see a marriage counselor. Yours is not the typical situation. You could easily lose all you've worked for if you follow the wrong advice. 

In the end, that may be best for both of you, but you will need counseling to help you determine what is worthy of leaving and what isn't. 

Sorry you are here over this.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

katies said:


> Being we've been through 3 affairs between us, I think ours is a case of exercising extreme precaution. Always protecting boundaries, if not for ourselves, but the feelings of safety for our spouse.


Tell him exactly what you have said above. He could not be that obtuse that he does not realise the importance in your case of boundaries.

If it was me, I would give him some of his own medicine and flirt with the guys at the next event you attend, if he responds negatively, tell him that is exactly how you feel. So if he is prepared to sit down and talk about it in order to protect your marriage, great; if not, then yu both have to consider moving on as you cannot live like that.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

I will tell him exactly that. 
It now goes against my values to flirt with other men.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

katies said:


> It now goes against my values to flirt with other men.


Yes @katies!!! One may need affirmation in other ways, but the good feelings that come from being found attractive and desirable? IMO, those belong to one's partner and him/her alone.

As to your husband having what was likely a relatively innocent (if ego-stroking) interaction with this ex-student of yours? If it makes you feel uncomfortable or upsets you in any way, then he needs to know that and appreciate it. What he does with that information is then his choice. Frankly, I cannot see why she should feature in either of your lives in any way. 

It seems to me that your argument was not about him continuing his "friendship" with this woman. (I don't think you said whether he wants to do this? If this is the case, then my advice changes) You were hurt that he had acted as he had - you saw it as him not respecting healthy boundaries. And he was hurt that you were checking up on him because he saw this as a lack of trust. (He probably also felt guilty after you told him about how you felt, which wouldn't have helped him see your feelings objectively.) Neither of you can control which feelings you have in response to this situation, they simply are. Sharing them is part of honest, open communication. It is understanding what to do with them and why they are there that matters. (For what it is worth, I would also have felt threatened and angry if I were you.)

However, the reality is that you need to trust him to be faithful in order to move forward in your marriage. Perhaps you already do so, at least in part. But, you also need to trust that he is fully invested in your marriage. That your comfort and happiness are important to him, even if it means respecting boundaries that he might not think are necessary. Trust like this is built over time by a thousand small gestures. It needs to be nurtured. Respecting your partner's feelings is absolutely necessary (and that works in both directions). Does your husband understand that you are not actually accusing him of having an affair? Were you hurt more by his initial behaviour or by his response when you told him how that behaviour made you feel? Your history possibly makes it difficult to have these types of discussions without one of you demanding that the other prove their love and commitment by showing trust first. The whole discussion then becomes stuck in a chicken and egg loop. Have you tried MC before? Or perhaps writing down your feelings so that you can share things like this more neutrally?

I hope that you can get through this together. It sounds as though you have both had painful journeys to get to this point.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Mizzbak said:


> Yes @katies!!! One may need affirmation in other ways, but the good feelings that come from being found attractive and desirable? IMO, those belong to one's partner and him/her alone.
> 
> As to your husband having what was likely a relatively innocent (if ego-stroking) interaction with this ex-student of yours? If it makes you feel uncomfortable or upsets you in any way, then he needs to know that and appreciate it. What he does with that information is then his choice. Frankly, I cannot see why she should feature in either of your lives in any way.
> 
> ...


Mizz - what great feedback. Thank you.
We have tried and been dismissed from MC for 2-3 years now. 
Yes, he really takes it personally that I don't trust him entirely. He has done many 1000 things right. I told him I didn't think that he was having an affair but was not being cognizant of boundaries. And that when he throws me stalking him in the face he's not being empathetic.
Where we differ is that I don't take it personally if he doesn't trust me. It effects him much more than me. He thinks its some sort of prize he should get for doing everything right. When I call him on things, he gets defensive and super resentful.
When he gets mad at me for bringing things up, he then says I goaded him into saying these awful things. That's when I said that was it and that I'd had enough and that I was done. I said if I have that much power in your life then you're not healthy. 
So yes, we do go around and around. It is very difficult. We are great if i keep my mouth shut. What a marriage though. I won't allow him to manipulate me into not talking/sharing. 
I DO show him trust! He11, he goes to work right next door to OW1 every single day. 
Many of the things you have mentioned I will write to him. 
Thank you.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

katies said:


> although we are fine today, we keep having the same fight it seems. Although it's been a while since the last one.
> A 29 year old woman who apparently must be at the gym hubby works out at friended him on FB. Her husband always works out there as well and he and hubby are buddies. This was a few days ago. I saw the "so and so are now friends" feed on my FB. I just sighed to myself, wondering why she friended him. She is one year older than our son! The guy she married was her former teacher and is 50.
> Then, at the bball game last night, they said hi to each other (ignoring me, I was her teacher in junior high) and then I saw him glancing at her again.
> 
> ...


You guys need to get on the same page. To do this, there has to be some communication without judgment. As it stands, you two have things that have been left unsaid, guarded by past hurt. You two should be brought closer for things like this (intimacy), not divided. On one side, you have to be able to just listen to him. On the other, he has to be able to listen to you. If he doesn't hear you out, then you use some strategies to show him that it is important for him to listen, but not in a way that threatens him with emotional punishment.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Relationship Teacher said:


> You guys need to get on the same page. To do this, there has to be some communication without judgment. As it stands, you two have things that have been left unsaid, guarded by past hurt. You two should be brought closer for things like this (intimacy), not divided. On one side, you have to be able to just listen to him. On the other, he has to be able to listen to you. If he doesn't hear you out, then you use some strategies to show him that it is important for him to listen, but not in a way that threatens him with emotional punishment.


We have said everything. It's just that we don't agree on some things. Can you have a marriage where you don't see eye to eye on critical issues?
We've discussed the affairs ad nauseum. I was also sexually assaulted in a hotel room, which devastated him and he was furious with me for not protecting myself.
He has NEVER had empathy with me for that and it gets thrown in my face as "sex with a guy." So if I think something is a rape and he thinks it's not, where do we go from there? If we don't talk about it, we're good. If we do, we don't come to any consensus but hurt.

What are these strategies that show him?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Ummm my husband is not a surgeon or doctor.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Did he unfriend the woman from the gym?


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

No I don't think so. I'm not going to make him do anything. Just sit back and watch his decisions.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

katies said:


> We have said everything. It's just that we don't agree on some things. Can you have a marriage where you don't see eye to eye on critical issues?
> We've discussed the affairs ad nauseum. I was also sexually assaulted in a hotel room, which devastated him and he was furious with me for not protecting myself.
> He has NEVER had empathy with me for that and it gets thrown in my face as "sex with a guy." So if I think something is a rape and he thinks it's not, where do we go from there? If we don't talk about it, we're good. If we do, we don't come to any consensus but hurt.
> 
> What are these strategies that show him?


He didn't? I have a few choice words for your so called husband. He actually blamed you and throws it in your face as if you wanted it......

Why are you with him? 

Hope the best for you. So sorry you went through what you did. I hope the POS that raped you gets what's coming to him.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

katies said:


> Being we've been through 3 affairs between us, I think ours is a case of exercising extreme precaution. Always protecting boundaries, if not for ourselves, but the feelings of safety for our spouse.


Wow, then strong boundaries are vital, as is being open with all communications.
No wonder you are worried if there has been so much cheating.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

I think his two affairs were reactionary to my affair. But I also think that the lack of empathy and "you should be over this" attitude is disappointing, to say the least. 
I talked to him again last night and said I wasn't happy with how things went the other night. I said I didn't know how to bring things up without him thinking he couldn't do anything right and being defensive. He said just bring things up and that's he trying hard and nothing is going on. 
It would be a no bRainer to me to dump someone from Facebook.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

katies said:


> When I call him on things, he gets defensive and super resentful.


Only thing I can add is to take a look at HOW you call him on things. Nobody likes to be told they're doing something wrong, and admiration is typically a high Emotional Need for most men, so if calling him out happens on a regular basis, you will have become a pain point to him - he thinks of you, he feels bad/unhappy. So be honest with yourself and try to see what it feels like to be on his side of this thing, and then see if you can make your point without pushing his buttons.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

turnera said:


> Only thing I can add is to take a look at HOW you call him on things. Nobody likes to be told they're doing something wrong, and admiration is typically a high Emotional Need for most men, so if calling him out happens on a regular basis, you will have become a pain point to him - he thinks of you, he feels bad/unhappy. So be honest with yourself and try to see what it feels like to be on his side of this thing, and then see if you can make your point without pushing his buttons.


I get what you're saying but this happens like once every 3-6 months. I really tried to phrase my point from a vulnerable position - "I feel threatened when you have young female friends." 
I don't know how I could have said it otherwise. 
If he said this to me I would think, wow, he still cares and is a little jealous.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

So what does the 29 yr old OW look like?


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

MAJDEATH said:


> So what does the 29 yr old OW look like?


very cute! long blonde hair.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

turnera said:


> Only thing I can add is to take a look at HOW you call him on things. Nobody likes to be told they're doing something wrong, and admiration is typically a high Emotional Need for most men, so if calling him out happens on a regular basis, you will have become a pain point to him - he thinks of you, he feels bad/unhappy. So be honest with yourself and try to see what it feels like to be on his side of this thing, and then see if you can make your point without pushing his buttons.


lol This guy has had two affairs and now has friended a woman from the gym, and it makes his wife uncomfortable. And he doesn't care that it makes her uncomfortable. 

Yes, the OP should be very careful not to push his buttons. :|


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

katies said:


> No I don't think so. I'm not going to make him do anything. Just sit back and watch his decisions.


I wouldn't make him do anything, I just wouldn't allow someone to make me feel as small as he's making you feel. That part, you can control. The fact that your husband had two affairs and now has friended a random woman much younger than him at the gym, is telling of what is important to him. Sometimes, we like to tell ourselves stories about those we love, that are easier stories to swallow, I guess. We keep telling ourselves that these people who keep hurting us really love us, and have so many good qualities. Reality is always a harder story to tell ourselves, so we sometimes opt for the easier story. I'm not suggesting you leave him - but you don't need to walk on eggshells for him or make excuses for him.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

@katies, have you asked him (NOT when either of you are angry, upset or tired) what he gets out of having her as his friend on FB? I am, by no means, agreeing that it is OK that he does. Personally, I think it's a cr*p idea. It's just that I'd guess it has become an issue for him. That by keeping her there, he's showing you that you can't tell him what to do. 

So don't follow up his likely response of "Nothing really" with "Then why do it when you know it hurts me?". Just say "OK" in an accepting and neutral tone. And carry on doing your thing. I repeat, do not ask him why he does it when he knows it hurts you. Just leave it. Maybe he has a reason (sceptical look), maybe even a good reason (even more sceptical look). The point is to make him think about why he's doing it. I have (not that long ago - sigh) realised after starting a fight with my husband for no particularly good reason, that it was actually only because I wanted his FULL attention on ME. Seriously - how old am I?

It strikes me that you are both stuck in a never-ending loop of hurt. One of you hurt the other, then got hurt back, so did more hurting. And so on. 

Do you believe that he is committed to your marriage? Do you genuinely believe that he isn't having an affair, or wanting to? Do you believe that he loves you?

If YES:
I'd suggest that maybe you're not angry about her, you're angry about him appearing not to care that he hurt you with his ill-chosen actions. But I'd challenge you by asking how often you tell him that you appreciate those 1000 things that he does do right? And that isn't "I appreciate x, BUT why haven't you also done y?". Rather it's "Thank you, I appreciate x, it makes me feel loved/chosen/special/cherished/looked after/like we're really good for each other." End of conversation. Carry on doing your thing. 

You said that you'd tried MC - how many different therapists have you tried? Sometimes a certain approach clicks, and sometimes it does not. At all. I've had a therapist who annoyed me hugely with her sickly sweetness ... which, now that I think about it, was probably very effective in getting me "healed". I've had another where I've had a huge breakthrough in understanding myself in one session. He was a man of very few words. Which weren't mine that he was just playing back to me. 

If NO:
Then this a much harder piece of advice to give. The reality is that you've hurt each other badly. Getting love to grow in a hostile environment is really hard. Unless you're both committed to having something more than what you've got now, you're never going to move forward together. If he isn't willing to be part of this with you, then you need to decide what you need and want.


*Deidre* said:


> We keep telling ourselves that these people who keep hurting us really love us, and have so many good qualities. Reality is always a harder story to tell ourselves, so we sometimes opt for the easier story.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Mizzbak said:


> @katies, have you asked him (NOT when either of you are angry, upset or tired) what he gets out of having her as his friend on FB? I am, by no means, agreeing that it is OK that he does. Personally, I think it's a cr*p idea. It's just that I'd guess it has become an issue for him. That by keeping her there, he's showing you that you can't tell him what to do.
> 
> So don't follow up his likely response of "Nothing really" with "Then why do it when you know it hurts me?". Just say "OK" in an accepting and neutral tone. And carry on doing your thing. I repeat, do not ask him why he does it when he knows it hurts you. Just leave it. Maybe he has a reason (sceptical look), maybe even a good reason (even more sceptical look). The point is to make him think about why he's doing it. I have (not that long ago - sigh) realised after starting a fight with my husband for no particularly good reason, that it was actually only because I wanted his FULL attention on ME. Seriously - how old am I?
> 
> ...


I asked him why and he said he was friends with her husband (who's not on FB) and they all work out together so didn't think anything of it. But then why steal sideways glances at her when we're at the game when he's in a group with me? He must be interested. (Am I wrong about this?) It makes me feel like I'M NOT ENOUGH. When I know that I am. 
I believe he is committed to me. That he loves me. And that he's not having an affair. 
I believe he sucks at empathy and just wants us to get beyond this and be normal. My IC friend said that we now see things through the lens of infidelity. 
Believe me, I tell him EVERY DAY how much I appreciate what he does. He's really good helping around the house and I tell him that. But if I mention ONE THING that hurts, he just cannot deal.
I am interested in having something more than we have now, although what we have now is good, as long as I keep my mouth shut. 
We've tried two MC. He would very grudgingly go back if I asked. He feels we have spent time enough on all this and he's tired of talking about it. 

So, it really isn't that he's still friends with this gal. It's the lack of empathy (what you are referring to) that he shows when I bring things up that is crushing me. I have considered divorce this week.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

katies said:


> It makes me feel like I'M NOT ENOUGH. *When I know that I am.*


You sure about that?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

katies said:


> So, it really isn't that he's still friends with this gal. It's the lack of empathy (what you are referring to) that he shows when I bring things up that is crushing me. I have considered divorce this week.


I don't blame you, not because he recently friended a random woman at the gym, but your entire story sounds like a lot of disrespect ...and maybe it's just simply not working. I also don't think I'd want to be married for a long time to someone who couldn't deal with his age or something, which sounds like what some people go through as their marriages go on. It sounds like your husband thinks friending someone as young as one of his kids will make him cool or feel younger, and it's all an illusion, sadly. Instead of embracing his reality (you) and being content with you, he needs other women to feed his ego. I don't think he'll cheat with her, I think he just likes attention from a much younger woman.  

I hope that things get better for you, and that you don't sweep your feelings away just to keep peace.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

katies said:


> I think his two affairs were reactionary to my affair.


Maybe he's passive aggressively still getting his digs in/revenge , after all it appears you started the affair trend in your relationship.
Not healthy for either one of you.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Maybe he's passive aggressively still getting his digs in/revenge , after all it appears you started the affair trend in your relationship.
> Not healthy for either one of you.


I also wonder this... as @Mizzbak said, "both stuck in a never-ending loop of hurt".


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Maybe he's passive aggressively still getting his digs in/revenge , after all it appears you started the affair trend in your relationship.
> Not healthy for either one of you.


It needs to stop. And if it doesn't stop I need to leave. I think I've been "punished" enough.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

katies said:


> It needs to stop. And if it doesn't stop I need to leave. I think I've been "punished" enough.


I would agree on all three... can he do his part?

And if he can't, the boundaries you enforce you need to adhere to or else it's wasted motion.

Think environment... he is used to a middle-school teacher reaction, you know this dance so perhaps a change the beat is something to consider.

Take a different approach, shake it up in a mindful way that makes him take a step back and think...


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

katies said:


> I agree his reaction is like WTF? He HATES that I look at social media - once I saw him at a community lunch sitting next to a gal who later came up and hugged him while we were together and I was livid. He said she's just a jovial happy person. He accused me of looking at his LinkedIn page. I haven't looked at it in 2 years. But WHO CARES. He is a BS too! I would NOT CARE if he looked at my stuff. He doesnt' think it's healthy for married couples to do that. Well guess what, we're not the typical married couple.
> He said if you don't trust me lets just end it. And then back pedaled. He just doesn't know how to NOT TAKE OFFENSE to anything I say. He said what's this about. I said EMPATHY!!!



Personally I don't think any of the social media out there is healthy for any couple, especially if there has been an issue of trust in the marriage. It would caused more fights between couples than any benefits you get from using it. Maybe you both should shut down all these sites so there is less things to argue about.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> I would agree on all three... can he do his part?
> 
> And if he can't, the boundaries you enforce you need to adhere to or else it's wasted motion.
> 
> ...


well I thought I had a pretty mature approach. Right now I'm not doing anything. I have an appt with IC in a couple weeks.
We've been having a good couple of days. 
What I could say is that there have been a couple guys he didn't like/trust that tried to friend me on FB. I deleted their request right away. 
There are two things here - the friendship thing and the fight we had where he threw everything I did back at me. That is a big problem with us.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Being with others like that is a big deal... you either have to fully reconcile and forgive or it will irrevocably erode and one of you will leave, that is assured.

Can the both of you let the past really become the past?

Many can't after the transgression of an affair. I think those that do come to an understanding much deeper than the hurt created. What you need is a pact... a peace treaty if you will, make it written is recommended, that any future disagreement will not bring up the agreed areas in anger or an argument. When an argument seems to be forming that appears to be spiraling downward in trended negative feelings in it's tit-for-tat model, place the agreement on the table and work on keeping things fair, clear, and calm as you address your hurts and fears.

Keep the list visible and add to it initializing each new line you add to the treaty... before long you will see that the rehashing of old jabs are diminished and you now have room for the growth and good communication. If minor violations come, and they will, be humble if you cause them and patient/understanding if he does when called out... you are both human.

This isn't a weapon, it's a tool, and it protects you both.

If it doesn't work for you, wonderful... you have to use the tools that are best for you. The whole idea is that when you disagree, you can do it with fairness and without fear. When I argue with my wife, and we do have our share of disagreements... it's not that we disagree, it's how we disagree and quality counts.

Again, it's how you also react... what happens if you simply watch the things that are throw at you come and are caught by you? You owned them, correct? Perhaps it's now time to own the insecurities you both may have.

If this cycle doesn't stop, it will stop you...


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Being with others like that is a big deal... you either have to fully reconcile and forgive or it will irrevocably erode and one of you will leave, that is assured.
> 
> Can the both of you let the past really become the past?
> 
> ...


I really like the first part of this and I think we could do it. 
Own the insecurities? You mean, never mention again when we feel insecure? Arent' I suppose to be able to talk about anything?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

> I don't think forgiveness helps with triggers. We have forgiven each other. I have to forgive myself for staying, apparently. Not in the cards to forgive any AP.


Kate, You wrote this on 8/6/2015

Your WH thinks along the same lines.

I do not think it is in the cards FOR HIM to forgive your affair. 

He loves you. You are a lovely women. 

But he does not believe your version of what happened in that hotel room. He does not believe you. Behind the scenes, he shows this disdain and acts accordingly.

For you, it is death by subtle blows. He seems very passive. He has no empathy? No, he has some. HE JUST HAS NO EMPATHY FOR YOU. His love for you and his hurt from you collide, collude and you get this women in your face....forever?

He still loves you, but he is still punishing you. He is conflicted. Your constant complaining about him and his affairs just fuel the passive glowing ember that is his relationship with this women.

I get it. You love him. You are remorseful.....he is not. He may say he is. But he is still hurt. 

Like a leaf, he cannot/will not stop the local breeze from sending him astray. If he were a stronger man he would ask for a divorce. His "if" is weak.

He is coasting in life. And so are you. Get off the skateboard. 

He will never get off his skankboard, will he?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

katies said:


> I really like the first part of this and I think we could do it.
> Own the insecurities? You mean, never mention again when we feel insecure? Arent' I suppose to be able to talk about anything?



No, I mean do the work to remove them from yourself.

We all have insecurities, it's how we allow them to surface is what matters.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

I don't think there is anything wrong with allowing insecurities to surface. Aren't we supposed to be vulnerable?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

katies said:


> I don't think there is anything wrong with allowing insecurities to surface. Aren't we supposed to be vulnerable?


Nor do I... I think vulnerability is a critical component of self-love, less fearful of any rejection and not worrying about what one looks like when openness is no longer an issue, but a asset.

This is what I meant by how we allow them to surface, removing those things that keep us guarded and disguising our authenticity.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

I'm dragging this thread out because I'm not quite sure what to do. 
I found out how to find out what you've searched for in Facebook. I looked at hubbys. 
In December he searched three time for a business women's name. She's very attractive and about our age. She is not in any line of work he is in but I suppose as a business person their paths have crosssed. 
So why look her up? They have two mutual friends. I don't have access to his LinkedIn account so no idea of they're friends there. 
He hasn't looked for anything else but sports teams. 
He was very supportive of me this weekend when I did my hobby type job. 
My gut is that he saw her or maybe met her somewhere and then looked her up. 
If I ask him about it I'll give away my source and he'll accuse me of stalking him. 
He's obviously interested in knowing about other attraactive women. Do other men do this?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Probably. Men like to look at pretty women. They're much more visual that way. He may just be playing what if in his head.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

turnera said:


> Probably. Men like to look at pretty women. They're much more visual that way. He may just be playing what if in his head.


I think the "what if" has been played enough in his head after what we've been through.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

I'm going to start by saying that I need to talk to him and that I really want to be in a marriage where divorce isn't threatened when we talk about uncomfortable things...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's how you're planning to start talking to him?


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

well considering how the last fight went, I'll probably start with that. yep.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Read what you wrote. It's an attack. A sideways attack, but still an attack. So he will instantly stop listening to you. IIWY, I'd go to a therapist and ask him/her to help you set up a conversation.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

I'm going to do exactly that. Going next Thursday. I would not, in the same conversation, mention both things. I would just say I'm not happy with any fight turning into a threat of divorce, that we should be able to talk without threats and leave it at that.


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## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

This thread strikes a little to close to home for me. 

I'm offering my take on this. I am no expert but my situation is a bit similar. I don't know your whole backstory, so I could be off base completely. 

I have a very hard time respecting my wife after her A, even years later. Deidre mentioned it, and I think that's probably his biggest issue in communicating and interacting with you. I have done what he's doing too. If anything comes up in an argument I don't like, I throw down the you cheated card or if you don't like it GTFO. Or my fave, duck this let's get a divorce. I'm was not trying to understand, compromise, or express empathy - it was about "winning" or punishing. Sometimes even purposely causing her pain because my pride was damaged. I know what buttons to push and it sounds like your husband does too. I would pick, or escalate, arguments just so I could throw these barbs. I usually feel like complete crap afterwards, but the damage has been done. I would never apologize for any of this either. I did it mostly because she accepted it. I came to see it as childish and stupid but it took way too long for me to figure that out. 

So, I would say just don't accept it anymore. Remove yourself from the situation when the argument takes that tone. I would also talk to him about this line of thought, outside of any other discussion or argument, and see what he thinks. At least plant the seeds in his mind.


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## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

fleek said:


> This thread strikes a little to close to home for me.
> 
> I'm offering my take on this. I am no expert but my situation is a bit similar. I don't know your whole backstory, so I could be off base completely.
> 
> ...


 @fleek - that was a very honest and insightful post. My H does the same thing - despite the fact he says he is over my A (25years ago- but he only found out 2 years ago- I disclosed)
He recently said he wouldnt care if I gave OM a gift to thank him for helping out our DD- (om saw dd's name and allowed her to co-op with his business). I was tryng to get him to empathize with some of his actions regarding his suspected EA. I would never dream of doing the gift thing- I think that would be hurtful. 

Do you think you will get to a point where you no longer want to hurt your wife? Can you see yourself ever falling back in love with her? I know it would be different but some posters say it can be a more intimate kind of love after getting through everything?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

katies said:


> I'm dragging this thread out because I'm not quite sure what to do.
> I found out how to find out what you've searched for in Facebook. I looked at hubbys.
> In December he searched three time for a business women's name. She's very attractive and about our age. She is not in any line of work he is in but I suppose as a business person their paths have crosssed.
> So why look her up? They have two mutual friends. I don't have access to his LinkedIn account so no idea of they're friends there.
> ...


Does your marriage seem more like a friendship/roommate kind of thing, rather than a husband and wife bond with passion, etc?


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

No, it's very much an in love, passionate, 30 year marriage with history, 4 grown kids and deep love and friendship.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

@katies, I've been quietly watching. I'm sorry that you're feeling the pain and distrust that you do. But you need to start doing something differently. 

You write of your pain and your hurt. How you feel almost deliberately misunderstood and how your husband pushes you away - using his anger and and his knowledge of your vulnerabilities to keep you at a distance. Some people avoid intimacy right from the beginning. Others learn it as a tool to prevent future hurt, especially against those who have hurt them before. Your husband loves you, but he does not want you too close because you have and can hurt him more when you are close. This is a natural defense mechanism. So, he feeds off of your pain and your hurt. He turns it back on itself to keep you away. 

My uh... extensive knowledge of martial arts has been painstakingly constructed through many discounted movie theatre visits and very late night television. But I do know that jujutsu is "the art of manipulating the opponent's force against himself rather than confronting it with one's own force" (thank you Wikipedia). Your husband cannot turn your hurt and pain back on itself if you do not aim it at him in the first place. Find your inner ninja. 

Empathy and communication are both two-way streets. You are very adept at keeping the flow coming from your side, but perhaps he is not as good at maintaining the flow from his? If he can only whisper of his needs and hurts, then you also have to listen better than he can. So a strategy for now - instead of trying so hard to be heard, try only to listen. Instead of speaking your hurt and pain, try only to hear of his pain and hurt. Instead of demanding that he voice his love, try only to tell him yours. Do not misunderstand me. Your needs are important. Your pain is important. But if you can get close enough to him, then you will only need to whisper it, when the time is right.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

katies said:


> No, it's very much an in love, passionate, 30 year marriage with history, 4 grown kids and deep love and friendship.


Considering the affairs... You and Him, don't complain that much. Yeah, y'all have issues, but it seems you and him are faithful now. The reality of R. It's not easy, the blinders have been pulled off it's never really goes away, it just sits there in the corner of the room waiting to be brought up and tossed. Fact check... forgiveness is/will never be forget.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Mizzbak said:


> @katies,
> 
> If he can only whisper of his needs and hurts, then you also have to listen better than he can. So a strategy for now - instead of trying so hard to be heard, try only to listen. Instead of speaking your hurt and pain, try only to hear of his pain and hurt. Instead of demanding that he voice his love, try only to tell him yours. Do not misunderstand me. Your needs are important. Your pain is important. But if you can get close enough to him, then you will only need to whisper it, when the time is right.


Well I could do this but he doesn't speak of his hurt and pain anymore unless I bring something up.
I do tell him I love him. I haven't even mentioned what I just found and I might not ever.


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