# I probably already know the answer....



## cafetom (Jan 15, 2017)

Hello all,

The fact that I am actually reading here and posting is enough to let me know that I already have an answer. I am just making sure that I am not missing something in our relationship.

My wife and I have been married now for 9 months. We dated for 5 years. We are both on our second marriage, which ended in divorce. My wife of 25 years found life more exciting with another man, and my current wife, after 18 years of marriage, found another man who paid attention to her and met her needs.

One things I feared was that after the ring, she would change. And she did change. I think the thing that she feared in me that after the ring, I wouldn't change....and I didn't change. I told her to not expect me to change who I am, and she was fine with it....she thought. She said that she would be the same person she was while we were dating...and she isn't even close. It is as if there was an act that was maintained for 5 years, and now the real person came out. And this is a CRAZY person.

The reason or question I have is there anything I can do to bring reality to someone who doesn't see it? I simply have run out of ideas on this one and am really at the time to say, "Bye Felicia!"

So here is a basic idea of what is going on. We get into conversations and they nearly always lead to arguments with the inevitable, "I never said that!"

I have gotten to the point where I record ALL of our conversations. I started recording them on my phone but ran out of space with all the recordings so I purchased a digital voice recorder just for the ease of recording EVERYTHING. I usually record 3-5 hours of conversations per day. I got to the point of not being able to find certain things so I keep a journal log of each day that summarizes the main points of the conversations. Crazy, right? Let me share why I do this.

I already said that "I never said that" is a part of our almost daily conversation. Another part of this is not dealing with reality. At first I thought I was losing my mind, but now others have joined in asking WTF is going on?

Here is a literal transcript from a recent conversation:

Her: "What would you like me to make for dinner tonight?"
Me: "I am good with whatever."
Her: "Would you grill out chicken?"
Me: "Sure, bbq? Marinade? Rub?"
Her: "Whatever you want to do, but I like Marinade."

After a few hours of letting the chicken Marinade, chopping veggies for the grill I began grilling. Again, this is all TAPED!

Her: "WTH are you doing? I thought we'd go out for dinner!"
Me: "You asked me to grill out chicken so I am."
Her: "I never said that! I am in the mood for ABC....."
Me: "I recorded what you said."

I play what I recorded and she still denies saying it, and that I am making things up to make her thinks she is crazy. 

And this happens ALL THE TIME. Over EVERY LITTLE THING, AND BIG THINGS!. I'll be wearing a grey shirt and she will call it green. I bought her the exact car she wanted and when things broke on it she say, it came that way, and can't believe I would make her drive this car.

There is A LOT of the blame game going on. Nothing, is EVER her fault, EVER!!!! She either denies reality, or there is a perfectly good explanation on why the situation is someone else's fault. "I couldn't pay my credit card bill because I used the money for a dress and shoes that I needed...because you didn't give me enough money, so now I need more otherwise I can not pay the rent" (I have taken over ALL of the bills that need to be paid and only given her xxx amount for living expenses. Because she has Credit Cards in her name only, she has maxed them out and continues to get more cards to continue spending. She call the companies and tells them that she didn't purchase any of these things even though she has)

This rarely happened when we were dating simply because she just went along and came along side of whatever I was doing. A few of her friends AND RELATIVES kinda hinted around a bit by asking "Are you sure you know what you are doing and getting yourself into?" I thought I did, but now I am beginning to see a little more to what they might have meant. I wish there were more upfront!

I have asked her to see a doctor, a counselor, talk with friends, etc. She doesn't see a problem with her, in that is ALL ME. And yes, I am questioning my sanity as well.

And, GO!


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## dawnabon (Mar 11, 2017)

Were you the other man in her previous marriage? 

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## squid1035 (Apr 9, 2013)

BPD/NPD. Won't know for sure unless evaluated. Document everything. Record every encounter.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I'm married to one of those to, whatever the issue, it's my fault. It's raining - my fault. The car broke down - my fault. She threw a plate across the kitchen hitting our son - my fault. She won't own ANYTHING she does. 

I feel truly sorry for you.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

at this point she ain't going to change.

cut your losses. get out


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Wait, you skimmed over her finding a new man. What's the story? 

Sounds like drama. Life is too short. Chalk up your losses and move on. Don't get married again.


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## cafetom (Jan 15, 2017)

NOPE! I was faithful and never cheated.


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## cafetom (Jan 15, 2017)

Yes, I skimmed over her finding a new man. I listened to her stories and what she said made sense and was verified by others. The things that her first husband did were true. However, I am coming to learn that he probably didn't wake up one day and decided to do them. I think that he got to a breaking point with her craziness and just decided that he needed to survive financially, emotionally, and physically. Without the "why did he do that" part of the story, looking at what he did, it looks like he was an ass. Just like if I stop supporting her because of her reckless spending, she will have the story that she can't even buy food....(which might totally be true, but it wouldn't be that she would have food). I am beginning to see that there is this way of twisting the truth of things that is entirely true, but doesn't provide full perspective.

My wife cheated with a man that could spend A LOT of time with her. My wife's ex had a job and worked hard and long to support the family. She didn't work (and still doesn't), and has all kinds of time to think about what she wants to do. (I am thinking that there will be a repeat)


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

How would you like our help?

What guidance are you seeking?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

cafetom said:


> She didn't work (and still doesn't)


Who supports her financially?


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## Deperatedwoman (Jul 31, 2017)

Wow!! I am sorry for that


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

I thought I had problems!

If what you say is true, it sounds like she has severe problems with dealing with reality. I'm no expert or psychologist....but, to be blunt...she needs her head testing.

Resorting to using recording devices so you can check back on the conversations in this case was probably a good move. I assume that she knew beforehand that you were recording everything. I get the impression that you were making the recordings not to use as evidence against her, but for your own benefit and your own sanity.

Like @squid1035 said, she probably has BPD. (It might interest you to know that my dad was diagnosed schizophrenic, and it wasn't until years after my mum divorced him that he was even diagnosed). Not an easy thing to live with.

I don't know how to advise you about getting her help. I think this is something she has to agree to. But she does need help.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

So you were cheated on and your wife cheated on her husband? Did I get that right? 

Sounds like you didn't get the lesson. Character is character, hope I'm wrong.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

You dated her for five years, and she was able to hide this side of herself? Or maybe you hoped it would change after marriage. 

Sounds like an emotionally abusive relationship. I'd not waste another minute in it.


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## dawnabon (Mar 11, 2017)

I'm sorry but my pessimistic pov is that she'll inevitably cheat and twist it around on you. I'd cut your losses! 

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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

How crazy that she was able to keep this real her from you for five years! I'm sure you would not have married her if this is how she had been. She was hoping YOU would change, I have had the opposite experience, in that I hope my partner DOESNT change, and so far they always have. Too bad her family was not more up front with the truth. I hate to say this, but I think trying therapy with her would be a waste of time, there would be zero truth coming out of her mouth, and how is a therapist supposed to work with that? 

Wow... i'm sorry youre here.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@Uptown


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

I don't understand how you didn't see this side of her at all when you were dating...you had said you were scared she would change once she got the ring, maybe you were scared because you knew what you were getting yourself into.
Honestly having to record every conversation to prove you are right and then still being told you're wrong is no way to live.
Personally I'd call it quits, but if you want to stay with her you are going to have demand that she get some sort of psychological help.
Good luck.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Tom, I agree with @*Squid* and @*Anthony* that several behaviors you describe -- e.g., rewriting history, lack of impulse control, reckless spending, and always being "The Victim" -- are warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Yet, if your W's BPD traits were strong, you should also be seeing a strong abandonment fear (e.g., irrational jealousy) and engulfment fear (e.g., feeling suffocated and controlled by you) -- neither of which is mentioned by you. More important, BPD behavior would be persistent. It is not something that disappears for five years.

Hence, if your W really does have a personality disorder, it is far more likely to be NPD or ASPD (Sociopathy). Narcissists and sociopaths typically are capable of maintaining a false act for five years when it suits them to do so. Other possibilities are that she has late-onset bipolar-1 or is exhibiting psychosis (i.e., is "crazy" as you suspect). Of course, your best chance of identifying the issue is to see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion. In any event, your best option at this point seems to be divorce, given that she refuses to seek diagnosis and treatment. Take care, Tom.


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## cafetom (Jan 15, 2017)

In regards to what I am looking for or needing, I am not quite sure. Yes, she hid the majority of what I am seeing now for 5 years. However, we didn't live together and didn't share intimacy with each other during that time (yes, I know, hard to believe). So it isn't beyond the scope of reality that some of this simply wasn't exposed. There were a few hints of things while we were dating, but nothing that couldn't be explained or reasoned away as situational and not necessarily systemic. Looking back now, being "in love" and still being love blind, I probably should have seen the smoke for what it was....FIRE!

I think part of me is thinking, CRAP, is this REALLY happening to ME? WTH did I do to get into this? I had given up totally on dating as there were some scary people out there with "Lots of love to give" which is code for "I am a psycho needy person that will suck the life completely out of you." She wrote to me and told me her entire story in her first email, about how she had cheated and the different things that were going on. I found it refreshing to hear someone seemingly being honest with themselves and their situation, so I wanted to learn more. 

The one thing, and really only one, that made me pause was when she talked about the "Maintenance" (Spousal support), she was receiving. She said "I earned that for my years of service". I thought.....you cheated on him and somehow you think you earned a right to a lifestyle that he has to pay for? In the state I lived in, it is a no-fault state. Either party can sleep with a million people, do drugs, run up debt, and do all kinds of harm, and no matter what, everything is split 50/50. Except debt, of course. In my state, debt collectors don't care about a court decision. They will go after anyone with money and not split the debt. In fact, a collector can only go after one party at a time....which is the one with the highest taxable income. So not only did he have to pay debt, child support for 50/50 placement, but also had to pay 9 years of 27% of his GROSS income......because she "earned" it.

Part of me is in denial that this is happening, and thinks I should just keep going on and it will get better. Another part of me remembers the first divorce I went through and never want to do again. I was living in the basement of a building (illegally, trying just to pay the debt), and giving my ex the house and 27% of my gross income and child support. 

I guess I need the realization that this sort of stuff happens to others, and want to know what others may have done.

As Tom Cruise says in a scene in a movie to a girl looking to pick him up, "I can't afford you!" She replies, "I am not a hooker!" He returns, "Then I DEFINITELY can't afford you!" She says, "I don't get it!" He says, "The hooker would"


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Has she been diagnosed with anything?
Sit her down and tell her things are not right and you want to resolve them, suggest individual IC, maybe a therapist would identify if she has bi-polar, etc.

All the recording you are doing will drive you crazy, this is no way to live. When she argues with you, tell her you do not want to be in a marriage where you are treated like this. If she will not seek help, you have to consider leaving her.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

cafetom,

Can you get an annulment, if she hid significant debt that may be grounds.

Tamat


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

cafetom said:


> She wrote to me and told me her entire story in her first email, about how she had cheated and the different things that were going on. I found it refreshing to hear someone seemingly being honest with themselves and their situation, so I wanted to learn more.


LOL. That was your *FIRST* clue you were dealing with a nut-job.



> The one thing, and really only one, that made me pause was when she talked about the "Maintenance" (Spousal support), she was receiving. She said "I earned that for my years of service". I thought.....you cheated on him and somehow you think you earned a right to a lifestyle that he has to pay for? In the state I lived in, it is a no-fault state. Either party can sleep with a million people, do drugs, run up debt, and do all kinds of harm, and no matter what, everything is split 50/50. Except debt, of course. In my state, debt collectors don't care about a court decision. They will go after anyone with money and not split the debt. In fact, a collector can only go after one party at a time....which is the one with the highest taxable income. So not only did he have to pay debt, child support for 50/50 placement, but also had to pay 9 years of 27% of his GROSS income......because she "earned" it.


And that was your *SECOND* clue you were dealing with a nut-job. A very _self-entitled_ nut-job.

The most foolish thing you did was MARRY this woman. Since you had a 5-year 'relationship/engagement,' I'm assuming it was because she was waiting til she'd collected her last nickel of alimony then married you in order to keep her revenue flow uninterrupted. I can't help but notice in all that 5 years, you claim you had NO intimacy with her at all.

*Sir, you've been used as an ATM.*

I can't stress enough to you how you need to divorce her NOW. Every year you stay with her just increases your settlement obligation to her THAT MUCH MORE.

I'd run so damned fast I'd give myself whiplash.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Cafetom,

What I suspect is true about her marriage and ex is that he broke down after she had been cheating on him. Despite what she is telling you about her ex she may be telling the story backwards as the abuse likely started with her, and this was not her first affair.

Her telling you about the one affair was to cover up others and financial and emotional cheating as well.

I'm sorry you fell into this trap.

Tamat


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Definitely BDP. Let me explain something about my ex and you'll understand why you didn't see it for 5 years (and am I right you guys didn't have sex for those 5 years? OMG, why marry her? But that is a different issue).

My ex used to say that "everyone" had a representative. Someone that they put forth to represent their best side. It was like summoning a different personality to fit the situation. It didn't cause any emotional anguish within because "everyone" does this and it's to be expected. So, when we had family dinners or out with other people, she was the most gregarious person around. When we dated, we argued, but a lot was hidden as I chalked them up to spats where we could have sex and fix things. 

Your wife was in girlfriend representative mode. She probably didn't even realize she was behaving differently than anyone else in that scenario. It's a false front.

Brotha...GTFO


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Denial does not benefit you. Being a realist does. Time to move on.


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## cafetom (Jan 15, 2017)

Thank you all for your insight and different, outward looking perspectives. Getting these perspectives is really what I was thinking to get. 

Never thought of an annulment. I am not quite sure how that works, but I will be checking.

To be clear, not having intimacy in our relationship was MY idea, not hers. She was more than willing, I wasn't. This was a part of my baggage. My ex would use sex as a weapon. I love sex. She would use it to manipulate me to get what she wanted. If I didn't give in, no sex (or much anything else). It wasn't until she got her way. With that, I learned to not expect, demand, or even enjoy sex quite as much because it was just a way for someone to manipulate me. I have come to realize that I wasn't the only one thinking this way. Turns out a lot, and I mean TONS of guys turn to pornography for just this very reason. It is the physical release/enjoyment without the strings attached. You don't "owe" anybody anything. This is the super power that women have over men, so I kept the kryptonite away, and it worked....until we got married, and she rekindled the power of the Kryptonite.


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## kettle (Oct 28, 2016)

My wife will not own her **** either. I bought the song "it ain't my fault" by the Osborne brothers. I said listen to these lyrics and tell me who it reminds you of. She listened "our daughter" I just said "oh yeah right, right"


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

cafetom said:


> As Tom Cruise says in a scene in a movie to a girl looking to pick him up, "I can't afford you!" She replies, "I am not a hooker!" He returns, "Then I DEFINITELY can't afford you!" She says, "I don't get it!" He says, "The hooker would"


I'm almost ashamed to ask, being a bit of a TC fan myself, but which film is this? It's not 'The Firm' is it?


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## Anthony Wellers (Jul 29, 2017)

Herschel said:


> Definitely BDP. Let me explain something about my ex and you'll understand why you didn't see it for 5 years (and am I right you guys didn't have sex for those 5 years? OMG, why marry her? But that is a different issue).
> 
> My ex used to say that "everyone" had a representative. Someone that they put forth to represent their best side. It was like summoning a different personality to fit the situation. It didn't cause any emotional anguish within because "everyone" does this and it's to be expected. So, when we had family dinners or out with other people, she was the most gregarious person around. When we dated, we argued, but a lot was hidden as I chalked them up to spats where we could have sex and fix things.
> 
> ...


Hmm! For some reason this sounds familiar.

But like Billy Joel said..."We all have a face..."


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Anthony Wellers said:


> Which film is this? It's not 'The Firm' is it?


"Jack Reacher," which is one of my favorites.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

cafetom said:


> Thank you all for your insight and different, outward looking perspectives. Getting these perspectives is really what I was thinking to get.
> 
> Never thought of an annulment. I am not quite sure how that works, but I will be checking.
> 
> To be clear, not having intimacy in our relationship was MY idea, not hers. She was more than willing, I wasn't. This was a part of my baggage. My ex would use sex as a weapon. I love sex. She would use it to manipulate me to get what she wanted. If I didn't give in, no sex (or much anything else). It wasn't until she got her way. With that, I learned to not expect, demand, or even enjoy sex quite as much because it was just a way for someone to manipulate me. I have come to realize that I wasn't the only one thinking this way. Turns out a lot, and I mean TONS of guys turn to pornography for just this very reason. It is the physical release/enjoyment without the strings attached. You don't "owe" anybody anything. This is the super power that women have over men, so I kept the kryptonite away, and it worked....until we got married, and she rekindled the power of the Kryptonite.


God created women from a man's rib {Adam's}.

From his own bone he uses his bone on his bones creation.

And in the end he gets boned.

In reality, he F'ed himself.

The irony is...it felt good...he is not going to stop.

Pleasure in Pain, Uh, huh!:grin2:


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I have scanned you CT.

You have a narrow, unhealthy and skewed view of women.

You should divorce this one and never marry again...until you get your head on straight.


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## cafetom (Jan 15, 2017)

Hello there SunCMars,

While I appreciate having a diversified input, I assure you, my head is on straight. In fact, I agree with you on some things, but not your conclusion. I was perfectly fine, and had a lapse of judgement, and got married to someone who found the buttons to push. But thanks for your input.

A bit of an update. I have had several friends and relatives who have shared with me that something isn't right with my wife. They said they tried to hint to it before we were married, but secretly hoped it would get better. However, they are seeing that it is getting worse. They have personally tried to intervene one-to-one with her. We are all convinced that a medial intervention is needed. We have 5 people now that want to help with an intervention. So I am going to go at this another way.

I heard all of the people saying that she is crazy and that I should run right now before it is too late. And the person above thinks that I am the issues. As Sheldon Cooper says "i'm not crazy, I've been tested."  I too asked myself, am I the issue, am I going crazy? I sought professional help in answering that question. I'm not.

So my question now is, what might work to get my wife to volunteering to professional help? It would be easy to just leave right now, and it might come to that, but I would like to think there is a small chance of hope.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

cafetom said:


> I have had several friends and relatives who have shared with me that something isn't right with my wife. They said they tried to hint to it before we were married, but secretly hoped it would get better. However, they are seeing that it is getting worse.


Tom, I earlier expressed skepticism about a personality disorder being involved because a PD would not disappear for the first five years of your marriage. Now, however, you are describing a situation in which you did see issues earlier -- and they were even obvious to some friends and relatives prior to your marriage.



> I too asked myself, am I the issue, am I going crazy? I sought professional help in answering that question. I'm not.


Of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the _one most notorious _for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. To a lesser extent, NPD and ASPD also have that crazy-making effect. This is largely why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers or the narcissists themselves.

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you believe must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning. Yet, as I noted earlier, you also should be seeing signs of a strong abandonment fear (e.g., irrational jealousy) and engulfment fear if your W really does have strong traits of BPD. You still have mentioned no signs of either fear being triggered.



> What might work to get my wife to volunteering to professional help?


As you suggested, it _"might work"_ if you and your friends do an intervention, trying to persuade her to seek professional help. But, if she really does have strong PD traits, it is unlikely to be successful even if she does go to a psychologist for a few sessions. One problem is that learning to manage PD traits takes years of hard work done in weekly sessions. It is rare for a high-functioning PD sufferer to remain in therapy and to work hard enough, long enough, to make a real difference. 

Another problem is that, unlike the other mental disorders (called "clinical" disorders), PDs are invisible to nearly all of the people suffering from them. This invisibility occurs because the thought distortions arising from PDs are in such harmony with the desires of the ego that they feel comfortable and natural to the PD sufferer. After all, this is the way these people have been thinking since early childhood. 

The existence of this harmonious relationship is why the symptoms of PDs are said to be "egosyntonic" and those of the the other mental disorders are said to be "egodystonic" (due to the lack of such harmony). The result is that it is rare for high-functioning PD sufferers to be sufficiently self aware to realize that they need therapy. (Low-functioning PD sufferers, however, typically are in such severe pain that they oftentimes will seek professional help.)


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> I'm married to one of those to, whatever the issue, it's my fault. It's raining - my fault. The car broke down - my fault. She threw a plate across the kitchen hitting our son - my fault. She won't own ANYTHING she does.
> 
> I feel truly sorry for you.


I remember those flying dishes. When I was a young lad, my mother who was very quiet and peaceful, uncharacteristically winged a plate at my father.

He ducked, it missed. He never said a word. He picked up the pieces and swept the floor. That is the only time I ever saw him with a broom in his hand. 

He must have done something really bad.....and he knew it.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

SunCMars said:


> I remember those flying dishes. When I was a young lad, my mother who was very quiet and peaceful, uncharacteristically winged a plate at my father.
> 
> He ducked, it missed. He never said a word. He picked up the pieces and swept the floor. That is the only time I ever saw him with a broom in his hand.
> 
> He must have done something really bad.....and he knew it.


It's one thing to wing a plate at your spouse, but doing it to your son is quite another thing all together.


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## smi11ie (Apr 21, 2016)

I think you really should give yourself emotionally and physically. You were maybe being way to defensive with her. That's just not going to cut it in the future. I understand you were hurt before , I am thinking this relationship was too early for you and you never recovered properly from your first betrayal.

You are NOT responsible for the CHEATING though so at least you can hold your head up on that one.

If she is willing to break it off with him and come clean you could consider reconciliation and start a totally new physical relationship with her. If feels like you never got started properly.

If she doesn't want to get back with you then she is going to gaslight the hell out of you for the lack of physical stuff. (gaslighting is basically blame shifting and lying)


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You and her friends and relatives say her behavior has steadily worsened. Please consider getting her to see a medical doctor for an MRI to determine if she has a brain tumor.


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