# She doesn't trust me



## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

My wife has been telling me a lot lately that she can't trust me.

First, some background. My wife suffers from fibromyalgia and we have a 3-year old son. I have a job in the travel industry, so I am away from home more than I'd like to be. 
We've been married 15 years; some of my wife's health issues made us doubt we would have any children, so our son is a beautiful, unexpected blessing. 

Shortly after our son was born, my wife gave up on Cymbalta, which had slowly lost its efficacy as a treatment for her fibro. She wanted to start looking into "natural" or "holistic" cures. I am very hesitant to embrace something peddled 
at a health food store without much supporting data. I understand that all FDA-approved drugs are not necessarily good, but I also don't believe it's automatically good just because it has the word "holistic" on the label. When I 
mentioned that I didn't want to spend money on something unless there was a reasonable chance for success, she accused me of caring more about money than 
her health. This was the first hint of things to come. I did finally give in out of guilt and try a couple of all natural "cures.". One gave her migraines so bad she was seeing double. The other one cost us over $2000 before she gave up because she was seeing no results. This was exactly the 
kind of thing I was worried might happen when this all started. 

She also took disability leave from her job soon thereafter. While I was a little stressed about the money (my pay is average, but not exceptional), I wanted to be supportive. She soon started looking for ways to earn money from 
home. I asked her to tread carefully since "work at home" plans can often disguise scams. She accused me of trying to steal her spirit and crush her hopes, so I acquiesced. 

She went on multiple web sites promising big money for taking online surveys. After spending days on the computer, we did manage to acquire a virus from one of the "free" websites that practically destroyed a very nice laptop. We've 
never seen a paycheck yet. 

She's also told me that I'm not supportive enough at home. Now when I am home, I cook about half the meals, I bathe, feed and play with our son. I try to keep up 
with the "manly" chores like yard work and vehicle repairs. I do all my own laundry and help out with hers and our son's. However, she won't let me put her laundry away because I never do it right. And she's become very angry because I 
don't always point the towel edges the same way in the linen closet for a nice, crisp look (I've finally gotten that one right). One day when I did something wrong, she stamped her foot in our driveway and yelled at me "Has it escaped your notice that I'm sick?" She says my lack of helpfulness creates stress on 
her and makes her fibromyalgia worse. 

To be fair, I'm not perfect. Far from it. When I feel I'm being unfairly treated, I withdraw and suffer in silence. I fear she has interpreted this as me intentionally giving her the silent treatment. She accuses me of punishing her by "refusing" (her words) to have physical contact with her. I am not Mr. Touchy-Feely, but I feel even less desire to hug her or hold my hand after she's just scolded me for not placing the dishes in the correct cupboard. 

I have never cheated on her. I've never even strongly flirted with anyone but her since we got married. I don't do the strip club thing, I personally believe porn is wrong, and I try to always tell the truth (which isn't always easy when the truth upsets her). I've never laid a hand on her in anger. While I may have said some things I've regretted, I have always tried to avoid the name-calling, belittling and harassing (unlike her, who has called me: lazy, selfish, stupid, rude, arrogant, ****y, wimpy, and bipolar). I try to address problems by saying things like, "I'm concerned when this happens," rather than "I need to tell you how you just did something wrong...." Alcohol is an extremely rare indulgence, and then it's two beers and done. I don't gamble or smoke.

I sometimes let my exasperation show. I try not to, but sometimes I have difficulty with being constantly scolded. I've raised my voice sometimes. I've sighed and rolled my eyes. I've even walked out of the room when I sensed a 
conversation was going nowhere. She uses these as examples that I treat her like "trash" and that I am abusive. 

She's accused me of being mentally abusive to our son. I try to shower him with praise. I grew up in a very critical home and I'm determined to do just the opposite with my son. I tell him I love him at least 5 times a day. I kiss him frequently, even in public (I figure I'd better do it now, cause he won't want me to when he's older!). I play with him and let him "help" me when I'm working in the yard. I love that little guy more than life itself. 

But sometimes, I get distracted. He'll be jabbering away to me and I won't realize he's talking to me (as opposed to just talking to himself, which I'm finding toddlers do a lot!), so it appears I'm being inattentive. My wife says that's damaging his self-esteem. Once, right after I was done cutting grass and 
just before I put the mower up, he came toddling out to see daddy and just that quick, touched the mower's hot muffler and burned his finger. I felt horrible, and it especially hurt my heart to hear him cry so much. 

But to make things worse, she didn't speak to me all night and still brings that incident up as proof that I'm neglectful. There have been other incidents where he's received minor scrapes and bumps while in my care. But in fairness to me, 
he toppled out of a shopping cart onto a concrete floor once while in her care. He jumped headfirst off the couch once while she was holding him. He unexpectedly stood up while she was taking him for a ride in a little red wagon and fell onto the sidewalk. Thank God he was not seriously hurt in any of these 
incidents. 

I see these accidents that could happen to anyone and you just try to be as diligent as you can and pray that God protects him as he's growing up. She sees them as evidence that I don't care and don't pay enough attention. She says 
she's never going to leave me alone for more than an hour with him because she can't trust me. Today I wanted to go to a Wal-Mart that's literally a 5-minute drive from our house. When our son said he wanted to go with me, she dropped everything and insisted on driving us. You see, she because he burned his finger on the lawn mower 5 months ago, she can't trust me to drive him in the car now. I did mention to her as she did a rolling stop through a stop sign that at least I don't run stop signs. I don't think she was amused. When we got to the store, she yelled at me for opening my car door before she had turned off the car (she had already put it in park). She said I was teaching our son bad habits. 

We've also been bickering a lot about discipline. She believes we should give him lots of warnings before we spank or give a time-out because it's not fair to discipline him before we explain it to him. I'm more inclined to tell him once what I expect of him and then discipline him if he doesn't do it. I'm scared if 
he learns to wait until he's been given 3 warnings, it could get dangerous if I ever need immediate compliance, such as "Stop! Don't go into the street!" But she cites my failure to repeatedly warn him as an example of me being overbearing and abusive. 

She frequently feels so bad she can't sit at the table for supper, and I like being able to serve her by taking her food to her on the couch. But I'm also generally trying to keep an antsy 3-year old happily eating at the table. She 
gets frustrated with me if I forget the salt or (God forbid!) bring her a spoon when a fork is all she needs. Sometimes she demands I stand there like a waiter while my son is getting restless at the table and my food is getting cold. I 
don't even get a "thanks hon." Try as I might, I sometimes let out a sigh or look frustrated. It's not that I mind serving her - it's my pleasure as her husband to serve her - but I'd occasionally like to be thanked. Instead, I feel 
like she sees me as a butler who's not good at his job. Not only do I not get a "thanks," but I often get scolded for forgetting something. Is my frustration over this the same thing as me being abusive? 

Look, I get that I can be overly needy at times. I understand that the things I've described are normal arguments that most couples have every day. But I'm concerned that what should be just a difference of opinion that could be worked 
out is escalated into a full-blown accusation that I'm abusive. 

We are in counseling right now, but I'm not seeing much progress. At first I went alone, because she wanted me to go get all my problems fixed and then we wouldn't have any more fights. But then after a few sessions, she decided she'd go along. When I expressed surprise, she started badgering me with paranoid questions, asking me if I was having an affair with the therapist and other things like that.

She claims she can't trust me and says that I'm borderline abusive. I think she's unreasonable. Am I in denial about my issues?


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> My wife has been telling me a lot lately that she can't trust me.
> 
> First, some background. My wife suffers from fibromyalgia and we have a 3-year old son. I have a job in the travel industry, so I am away from home more than I'd like to be.
> We've been married 15 years; some of my wife's health issues made us doubt we would have any children, so our son is a beautiful, unexpected blessing.
> ...


You guys have a lot going on.

Firstly I'll start with, she does not seem to respect you at all. Even if you did everything she wanted she probably wouldn't be happy. 

The best and first thing you should do is never ever let her disrespect you and talk down to you. 

Can I also ask how your sex life is? It would surprise me if it is very good.

When she talks down to you or is being critical about the towels or anything else, you need to say something like "I am doing my best, if it isn't good enough feel free to take over" If she gets more unpleasant just walk away and refuse to engage with he untill she is being respectful. Take control of the situation and tell her that is what you are doing. "I would love to talk you but you are belittling me and I won't talk to you while you do this. If however you have a legitimate complaint I will be happy to hear it, but your nit picking is uncalled for" Or something to that effect.






> To be fair, I'm not perfect. Far from it. When I feel I'm being unfairly treated, I withdraw and suffer in silence. I fear she has interpreted this as me intentionally giving her the silent treatment. She accuses me of punishing her by "refusing" (her words) to have physical contact with her. I am not Mr. Touchy-Feely, but I feel even less desire to hug her or hold my hand after she's just scolded me for not placing the dishes in the correct cupboard.


Hmmm this is a hard one, I think you need to be in control of the situation, let her know you will not be scolded like a child and micro managed, but then let it go, do not hold on to it and be resentful. Withholding affection is quite mean and cruel, and we should allways be willing to show our love. 
But do not ever apologise to her for things you didn't do.
So if she says "You didn't load the dishwasher correctly etc" Do not say "sorry and repack it" Say something like "Well that's just how i roll, if you want it packed differently do it your self, I am doing my best and it would seem the issue is not the packing of the dishwasher rather your need to have everything your way" Then again if she gets angry, trell her she needs to be respectful. 

Then do not hold a grudge, move on with the night, be chearful and happy. 



> I have never cheated on her. I've never even strongly flirted with anyone but her since we got married. I don't do the strip club thing, I personally believe porn is wrong, and I try to always tell the truth (which isn't always easy when the truth upsets her). I've never laid a hand on her in anger. While I may have said some things I've regretted, I have always tried to avoid the name-calling, belittling and harassing (unlike her, who has called me: lazy, selfish, stupid, rude, arrogant, ****y, wimpy, and bipolar). I try to address problems by saying things like, "I'm concerned when this happens," rather than "I need to tell you how you just did something wrong...." Alcohol is an extremely rare indulgence, and then it's two beers and done. I don't gamble or smoke.


It's good that you are that way. 



> I sometimes let my exasperation show. I try not to, but sometimes I have difficulty with being constantly scolded. I've raised my voice sometimes. I've sighed and rolled my eyes. I've even walked out of the room when I sensed a
> conversation was going nowhere. She uses these as examples that I treat her like "trash" and that I am abusive.


I would say aside from you withdrawing (which can be abusive) she is the one who is being abusive.


> She's accused me of being mentally abusive to our son. I try to shower him with praise. I grew up in a very critical home and I'm determined to do just the opposite with my son. I tell him I love him at least 5 times a day. I kiss him frequently, even in public (I figure I'd better do it now, cause he won't want me to when he's older!). I play with him and let him "help" me when I'm working in the yard. I love that little guy more than life itself.
> 
> But sometimes, I get distracted. He'll be jabbering away to me and I won't realize he's talking to me (as opposed to just talking to himself, which I'm finding toddlers do a lot!), so it appears I'm being inattentive. My wife says that's damaging his self-esteem. Once, right after I was done cutting grass and
> just before I put the mower up, he came toddling out to see daddy and just that quick, touched the mower's hot muffler and burned his finger. I felt horrible, and it especially hurt my heart to hear him cry so much.
> ...


This is not OK, clearly these are normal child hood things, and they will happen. 

Every time she overreacts, tell her "this is what happens to curious children" then when you want to take your son simply tell her "I am taking him for a drive, how would you feel if I insisted you couldn't care for him because of the very normal incidents that have happened while he was in your care?" or make a joke and say "Well it's too late now you chose me as the father, you suffer the consequences" and wink at her.


> We've also been bickering a lot about discipline. She believes we should give him lots of warnings before we spank or give a time-out because it's not fair to discipline him before we explain it to him. I'm more inclined to tell him once what I expect of him and then discipline him if he doesn't do it. I'm scared if
> he learns to wait until he's been given 3 warnings, it could get dangerous if I ever need immediate compliance, such as "Stop! Don't go into the street!" But she cites my failure to repeatedly warn him as an example of me being overbearing and abusive.


Perhaps you could both look at sites and books that have effective discipline without spanking. Come up with a plan and both stick to it.

I do not feel spanking is effective, especially with toddlers and have read many studies that show time out or using a loud voice (if you don't usually raise your voice) in dangerous situations is very effective. 



> She frequently feels so bad she can't sit at the table for supper, and I like being able to serve her by taking her food to her on the couch. But I'm also generally trying to keep an antsy 3-year old happily eating at the table. She
> gets frustrated with me if I forget the salt or (God forbid!) bring her a spoon when a fork is all she needs. Sometimes she demands I stand there like a waiter while my son is getting restless at the table and my food is getting cold. I
> don't even get a "thanks hon." Try as I might, I sometimes let out a sigh or look frustrated. It's not that I mind serving her - it's my pleasure as her husband to serve her - but I'd occasionally like to be thanked. Instead, I feel
> like she sees me as a butler who's not good at his job. Not only do I not get a "thanks," but I often get scolded for forgetting something. Is my frustration over this the same thing as me being abusive?


This is very disrespectful. She is treating you like a doormat and while she has an illness and it's not the usual situation i think you need help to tackle this one.

I would suggest being firm but fair and having some humorous comments at the ready, that reflect back her poor behaviour.


> Look, I get that I can be overly needy at times. I understand that the things I've described are normal arguments that most couples have every day. But I'm concerned that what should be just a difference of opinion that could be worked
> out is escalated into a full-blown accusation that I'm abusive.
> 
> We are in counseling right now, but I'm not seeing much progress. At first I went alone, because she wanted me to go get all my problems fixed and then we wouldn't have any more fights. But then after a few sessions, she decided she'd go along. When I expressed surprise, she started badgering me with paranoid questions, asking me if I was having an affair with the therapist and other things like that.
> ...


Please have a look here at the man up and 180 threads.

I am not suggesting this is all her fault and also be mindful when you read them that most of these men do not have a wife with a chronic illness. 

You have both caused your marriage to end up this dynamic, but I believe you can change it. 

You probably bottle things up (a little like my ex although I don't think I was ever abusive) and then have anger issues because of it (at a guess). It's not healthy, and she sees your outbursts as abusive, when in fact she has contributed to you bottling things up.

I hope you can make some changes and get the results you need.


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## greeneyeddolphin (May 31, 2010)

I don't see any of what you did as being abusive, really. I do think the thing with the holistic treatment was a bit insensitive on your end, if she wants to try something natural to treat her illness, you should be supportive, not worried about the money. 

All the rest, though, sounds like normal petty arguments turned into an ordeal. 

When it comes to your son, I agree that the accidents you've described are all normal childhood accidents. They're unfortunate and it breaks your heart to see and you feel guilty and like you should have done more to protect them, but they are normal childhood accidents. 

As to discipline: I agree with both of you, actually. I think there are times when he should be warned a time or two before punishment, but there are other times he needs to be punished immediately on first offense. For example, if he drops a lego down the air vent, that could be something you warn him about and then punish him the next time he does it. But if he's going toward an electrical outlet with a fork, that should get an immediate punishment. The lego in the air vent won't hurt anyone or break anything, the fork can do serious damage to person and/or property. It's a matter of finding that balance and finding that tone of voice or that look that lets him know that this is dangerous and he must do exactly as told. I think you both need to give in a bit on this. 

As far as her lack of appreciation for the things you do, stop doing them. Next time she complains, hand her whatever it is and tell her "I'm done. Since I can't do this right, it can be your responsibility from now on." Or stop doing her laundry and when she asks why, say "Every time I did it, you told me how I did it wrong. So I think you should handle it yourself, so I don't stress you out by doing it wrong." I've been known to correct my now ex-boyfriend or my kids, but I always try to do it with the context of "I appreciate that you did this, it was such a huge help. But next time, could you....It would make this so much easier/faster." That way, they know that I do appreciate what they did but I also get the chore done the way I prefer the next time, if I really need it done a certain way. 

I do think that counseling is in order, but I think she needs it more than you. I also think counseling is really probably the only thing that will really help your marriage, and even then, only if she is willing to be open to the idea that she might be wrong.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Syrum said:


> You guys have a lot going on.
> 
> Firstly I'll start with, she does not seem to respect you at all. Even if you did everything she wanted she probably wouldn't be happy.
> 
> ...


What sex life?


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Perhaps you could both look at sites and books that have effective discipline without spanking. Come up with a plan and both stick to it.
> 
> I do not feel spanking is effective, especially with toddlers and have read many studies that show time out or using a loud voice (if you don't usually raise your voice) in dangerous situations is very effective.
> 
> d.



I have quit spanking since it is such a contentious issue. And I would never punish him for something he hadn't been warned about. However, I think you have to be careful about too many warnings, or else he'll learn not to listen until we start counting to three or whatever. Our counselor recommended a book to us, but my wife dismissed the advice by stating "I know how to raise my own son. ". I think she was implying that she had no problems, that my methods were the only ones needing help.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

I think you should go talk to some of the men in the Men's Clubhouse sub-forum. Your wife is not respecting you, and I think may be using some of her illness as an excuse for some of her poor behavior.

Go look through some of the threads here (in particular the "fitness test" one at the top): http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Absolutely no respect, no appreciation. You are being treated like a slave. Stop everything you are doing. In this case I think demanding respect is in order. If you don't get it, disengage from your wife. She will be able to manage her illness without enslaving you. You are being abused and if it does not stop, you need to get out. 

Please stop allowing yourself to be treated like this. It is wrenchingly sad and soul stealing situation. You have a responsibility to yourself and your child to get healthy and be happy. Please follow the advice of the good people here and continue posting for support. I agree with posting in the men's clubhouse. There are many helpful sensible men there who will support you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yep. Your wife is self-absorbed. She needs a reality check. One way to get that is for you to stop helping so much. Tell her in therapy that you feel you're giving 90% and she's giving 10%, and you need it to change. Start respecting yourself. Start acting on your beliefs. For instance, if she's being too lenient with your son, don't just back down. 

Watch SuperNanny with her a few times; maybe she'll get the picture. That show explains it all very well.

There ARE holistic treatments, but I would urge you to research Eastern medicine, rather than Western 'new' methods. You'll get far better results.

Stop babying her. She can get up and get her own food. And if she can't, she needs to be admitted to a hospital. My DD20 has fibro, too, I know it can be bad, but HALF of the solution is mental. Your wife seems to be the kind who lets it consume her, guide her. I have a friend like that, and her entire family is now 100% revolved around her and her inability to do anything. But it became that way because the family allowed it to get that bad - they babied her, and she ran with it. 

Kind of like my MIL, who went into a nursing home and got into a wheelchair, and never got out. She LIKES it that way, everyone having to revolve around her. Her daughter should be making her get out of the wheelchair by refusing to do the rest of the stuff for her, but she doesn't. Now, she's shortening her life by giving in.

In other words, you need to be the strong one.

That said, I see a lot of you downplaying her beliefs and feelings. I'm sure SHE sees that too. Ask the therapist about it. That could be a great place for you to work on things.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Yes, I can see how at times I seem to belittle her opinions. I don't do it intentionally, but I can see how I might come across that way. And that would be a perfectly legitimate discussion to have. But I'd prefer the discussion to go something like this: "I appreciate that you have strong feelings on the subject of my health, but when you dismiss a new treatment outright before hearing my side of it, I feel as if you don't take my feelings seriously." Now that's a disagreement I'd LOVE to have with my wife!

Instead, I get something like this: "Why do you hate me so much? Why don't you care whether I live or die? I can't believe you're such a jerk that you honestly don't care whether our son grows up without a mother! How can you be so insensitive?" And it usually just goes downhill from there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just because she's ignorant in how to develop a functional discussion with her husband doesn't mean she doesn't have legitimate feelings. 

And going downhill? It takes two. Be the better person.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Hurt, your W may be exhibiting several fairly strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Such traits include the verbal abuse, inability to trust, black-white thinking, and always-the-victim behavior you are describing. Significantly, everybody has all nine of the BPD traits occasionally and at low levels. Hence, at issue is not whether your W has such traits. Everyone does. Rather, the issue is whether she has some of them at a moderate to strong level. These traits only become a problem when they grow strong enough to undermine a person's marriage and close friendships.

I note that, at a theoretical level, there has been considerable discussion about the association between fibromyalgia and BPD. For example, a recent textbook (_Focus on Fibromyalgia Research, _Nova Science, 2006) devotes an entire chapter to the theoretical connection of fibromyalgia to BPD. And I've seen some discussion about the apparent strong association between childhood abuse/abandonment and _BOTH_ fibromyalgia and BPD. Indeed, a recent study found that 70% of BPDers reported being abused or abandoned in childhood (but I've seen no comparable figures for fibromyalgia sufferers).

Yet, I have never seen any empirical studies confirming that a strong connection between those two disorders actually exists. So I cannot point to any empirical results. I can only observe that my exW and her two sisters (all three of whom are BPDers) all suffer from fibromyalgia. All three of them were molested and abused by their father for years in childhood. 

Of course, this anecdotal evidence does NOT imply that fibromyalgia sufferers are likely to have strong BPD traits. I mention it only because, with your W being a fibromyalgia sufferer, you may want to read more about BPD traits so you are able to spot the red flags -- in the event they have been occurring.

If you would like to read more, I suggest you start by reading the brief overview of such traits that I provide in Blacksmith's thread. My posts there begin at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-complicated-marriage-dynamic.html#post358403. If that discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to try to answer your questions or point you to professional articles that can do so. Finally, I note that, if your W actually has several strong BPD traits, you should have been seeing the same red flags all through your marriage. Although such traits are temporarily suspended during the six month infatuation period at the beginning, they would not lie hidden for 15 years and then suddenly appear. Take care, Hurt.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Actually, I have seen hints occasionally of some issues where I thought her reactions to common, ordinary disagreements were a little bit over the top. As you said, most of us exhibit some slightly irrational behavior at times, so I often figured it was me overreacting and usually took ownership of whatever offense had occurred. 

Two things seem to have exacerbated the problem; her fibro has taken a turn for the worst in the last 2 years, and our son was born. Don't get me wrong; our son is the light of our lives. Right now, he's the only thing that gives me something to look forward to coming home for. But having a little one around adds an entirely new dynamic.

I have noticed over the years that during her worst fibromyalgia flare-ups, the interpersonal problems between us seem to get worse. I always figured that she was more irritable because she was in constant pain. But when I read that fibromyalgia may have to do with brain chemistry and how your brain processes pain signals, it's got me wondering.

I'd love to be her emotional support during tough times like this, but it's difficult when she pushes me away. I try to at least take care of a lot of the household logistics, but I'd like to be more to her than an incompetent butler.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Uptown said:


> And I've seen some discussion about the apparent strong association between childhood abuse/abandonment and _BOTH_ fibromyalgia and BPD. Indeed, a recent study found that 70% of BPDers reported being abused or abandoned in childhood (but I've seen no comparable figures for fibromyalgia sufferers).


This is an angle I hadn't considered. She was never physically abused by her parents, but her parents are interesting cases. They are essentially good, honest people, who have a very black-and-white view of life. I'm not talking about moral issues like lying vs. truthfulness. It's just a viewpoint on life that if you don't see things their way, then you're morally suspect. If you want fish when they want steak, you're weird. If you don't agree that classical music is for wimps, then you're not a real man. That kind of stuff.

She's shared with me that when she was in high school, her parents forbid her to join choir because they were afraid that if she got offered a chance to sing a solo and was good at it, she would get conceited. In other words, they never gave her a chance to excel because they were afraid it would make her too proud. They did allow her to participate in the Honor Society, but very reluctantly. She almost didn't go to college because they would not support her because college makes people uppity. She worked herself through school by waiting tables full-time on top of her full-time school work. That, and her good grades helped some with a partial academic scholarship.

She's also told me stories of her dad getting angry with her over some childhood infraction and not talking to her for days. He even told her he couldn't stand to talk to her until he got over whatever offense it was that she had committed. She also has stories about her mother questioning her when she came home from one of the rare dates she was permitted to go on until 1 AM or later. Sometimes, she would finally tell her mother whatever it was she wanted to hear (even if it meant later punishment) just to get interrogation to stop.

Clearly, she's had some issues in her past. When we first got married, she saw me as a welcome relief from her past. Over the years, however, she has made amends with her parents and is now closer to them than to me. She's beginning to share their black-and-white, us vs. them mentality, and I feel as if I'm the one on the outside who is seen as the enemy. 

Now I'm wondering if all this baggage in the closet, plus the fibromyalgia, plus all my shortcomings as a husband, might all be part of the same problem. The question is, how can I fix it?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

:iagree::iagree:

She's in pain but using it like a weapon to abuse you with.

It's not your fault her life sucks. Her attitude may improve if she deals with it like an adult and gets proper medical attention.

But you're not being a bad husband or father. Utter tripe for her to toss that at you.

She doesn't appreciate what she has.



Catherine602 said:


> Absolutely no respect, no appreciation. You are being treated like a slave. Stop everything you are doing. In this case I think demanding respect is in order. If you don't get it, disengage from your wife. She will be able to manage her illness without enslaving you. You are being abused and if it does not stop, you need to get out.
> 
> Please stop allowing yourself to be treated like this. It is wrenchingly sad and soul stealing situation. You have a responsibility to yourself and your child to get healthy and be happy. Please follow the advice of the good people here and continue posting for support. I agree with posting in the men's clubhouse. There are many helpful sensible men there who will support you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

We always turn into our parents unless we recognize that and make an active attempt to be different. She hasn't. She is embracing that quirkiness of them. Unless you make a point of stopping it, she will be just like them. And so will your child. Time to make a stand?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> Now I'm wondering if all this baggage in the closet, plus the fibromyalgia, plus all my shortcomings as a husband, might all be part of the same problem. The question is, how can I fix it?


It sounds to me like they are. Specifically, it sounds like your continually falling short as a husband satisfies her need for you to always be the "perpetrator" to validate her false image of always being "the victim," as she felt she was in childhood.

If so, there is nothing you can do "to fix it." Only she has the power to fix herself. Yet, as Tunera suggests, you can stop enabling it by establishing stronger personal boundaries and enforcing them. That is, start acting yourself -- if you can even remember what that is after 15 years -- instead of always walking on eggshells to avoid triggering her anger.

Incidentally, I mentioned black-white thinking because it is one hallmark of having strong BPD traits. BPDers generally are extremely uncomfortable dealing with ambiguities and experiencing strong mixed feelings. They therefore categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and, in ten seconds, will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other -- based solely on an idle comment or minor infraction. This is why they have an attitude of everyone being in one of two camps: "with me" or "against me." Yet, doing this occasionally does not imply a person is a BPDer. As I noted, we all exhibit such dysfunctional traits occasionally.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

There isn't a lot in your thread about her being mistrustful of you as your thread title suggests but there is a LOT going on here.

You need to sit down and have a talk with her STAT.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My husband has very SEVERE us-vs-them symptoms. I mean, every single day, nearly every single person. But he's not BPD. His is based on a really really crappy childhood where he was both the 'it' child AND the family's savior.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> There isn't a lot in your thread about her being mistrustful of you as your thread title suggests but there is a LOT going on here.
> 
> You need to sit down and have a talk with her STAT.


That was a direct quote from her. She doesn't trust me with our son because he's gotten some minor bumps a couple of times while in my care. Nothing caused by me, mind you, but normal accidents that happen with little ones. Because of these - none of which required more than a band-aid - she believes I am abusively negligent. As I said, she has literally used the phrase "I can't trust you to drive, watch, etc. our son."


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Did you ask her what you can do to be more trustful in her eyes?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And it's YOUR job to call her out on it. You are setting a precedent. In a couple years, you will not be 'allowed' to make any decisions regarding your son - she called you a bad parent, you went along with it, two years' time solidified it, and you become a third wheel in your house, just paying for her to live the life she wants with her child.

Seen it a hundred times, hurt.

Go read No More Mr Nice Guy to see what we're all talking about. Educate yourself before she just moves you out of the house and keeps your paycheck.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

turnera said:


> And it's YOUR job to call her out on it. You are setting a precedent.


Agreed


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

turnera said:


> My husband has very SEVERE us-vs-them symptoms. I mean, every single day, nearly every single person. But he's not BPD.


Good point, Tunera. By itself, black-white thinking is insufficient to indicate a pattern of strong BPD traits.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> Did you ask her what you can do to be more trustful in her eyes?


Yes. She said she's not sure when she can trust me again. She just said "too many" accidents and mistakes have happened lately. Of course, the lawnmower thing happened 4 or 5 months ago. There have been a couple of similar incidents since then, but again, we're talking nothing more than minor, band-aid kinds of things. Talking with other parents of boys this age, I'm discovering we're actually pretty accident-free compared to their kids. But that's not good enough for my wife. I feel like I won't measure up unless I'm perfect.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Well tell her without a timeline you have nothing to go on.

She's not being fair by keeping you out in la-la-land, wondering.

As far as being perfect--no one is. So don't beat yourself up. You can only do the best you can. Explain that.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> And it's YOUR job to call her out on it. You are setting a precedent. In a couple years, you will not be 'allowed' to make any decisions regarding your son - she called you a bad parent, you went along with it, two years' time solidified it, and you become a third wheel in your house, just paying for her to live the life she wants with her child.
> 
> Go read No More Mr Nice Guy to see what we're all talking about. Educate yourself before she just moves you out of the house and keeps your paycheck.


Good warning. I'll go read that post. 

If nothing else, venting here and reading your replies has helped me gain some perspective. Her negativitiy toward me is so strong right now, I was beginning to wonder if I was going crazy. I couldn't see how someone could be so angry with me unless I was really screwed up. It was really messing with my head to wonder how I could try so hard and still be so bad.

Thanks for the prespective.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No More Mr Nice Guy is a book. One you really need to read. It sounds like your wife is used to getting her way. Time to change that.

Re the unfit accusation, the next time she tries to take your kid away from you or whatever, do NOT let her, look her straight in the eye, and say 'you don't have a valid reason to accuse me of that and I will not accept your diagnosis. He is my son and I WILL be involved in raising him.' And continue on with whatever you were doing with your son. Words are not gonna cut it with her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You might also do some reading about women who kind of change once they become mothers. There is something missing in their lives, due to their childhood, and they kind of 'latch onto' the kid as their salvation - their way of proving to the world, themselves, and likely their parents, that they are 'good.' So they kind of become obsessed with being seen as the only true parent, the only one capable of raising the child; she may be locking you out so she can do that. Remember, however, that if this is the case, she will not REALIZE she is doing it - it's very deep, very subconscious, kind of a need she feels. You can probably find some online magazine articles about it. I'm not saying that's her, but it's one possibility.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> Her negativitiy toward me is so strong right now, I was beginning to wonder if I was going crazy. I couldn't see how someone could be so angry with me unless I was really screwed up. It was really messing with my head to wonder how I could try so hard and still be so bad.


Hurt, of the ten personality disorders (PDs), BPD is the only one that is notorious for making the _partner or spouse_ of the BPDer feel like he is going crazy. This is one reason therapists see far more of the partners seeking therapy than they ever do of the BPDers themselves. 

Indeed, this ability of BPDers to induce a crazy feeling is so well known that the ex-partners (at BPD websites targeted to them) have given it a name. They call it "gaslighting." It is named after the 1944 classic movie _Gaslight_, in which a husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy so as to have her institutionalized, allowing him to run off with her family jewels.

I caution that your crazy feeling -- like the black-white thinking you've observed -- is insufficient by itself to indicate your wife has a pattern of strong BPD traits. That is why I suggested you read more about the nine traits so you can see if most of the red flags are present. If such traits seem to be a problem, I suggest you get a professional opinion by seeing a clinical psychologist -- on your own -- for at least a few sessions. Moreover, I caution again that it is highly unlikely your W has a strong pattern of such traits if you've only seen such dysfunctional behavior in the past two years. IME, BPD traits do not lie hidden for 13 years and then suddenly appear for two years.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> She claims she can't trust me and says that I'm borderline abusive. I think she's unreasonable. Am I in denial about my issues?


I don't think anyone here can really answer that for you but I do think it sounds like you needed somewhere to vent. There's 3 sides to your story. Yours, hers, and the truth.

Your current perspective presents like you're doing all the "right" things in the relationship and she's behaving immaturely and unappreciative. While this could be the case, your behavior in return will only be reinforcing these patterns between you. It sounds like you need to create some healthy boundaries if she name-calls, stamps her feet and lacks manners. 

It's great you're in counciling. I hope she continues with you - I don't understand why she'd have a problem trusting you in relation to the therapist. Do you know why? If she's keen to continue therapy with you, would it be worthwhile switching to a different therapist, perhaps a male, to help ease her mind until you start getting to the root of what's going on or is she fine now that you're going together?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Chronic pain messes with people. 

Before my surgery (female issues), I was in 24/7/365 pain for 2 years. It made me mean, snappy and messed with my head.


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

turnera said:


> You might also do some reading about women who kind of change once they become mothers. There is something missing in their lives, due to their childhood, and they kind of 'latch onto' the kid as their salvation - their way of proving to the world, themselves, and likely their parents, that they are 'good.' So they kind of become obsessed with being seen as the only true parent, the only one capable of raising the child; she may be locking you out so she can do that. Remember, however, that if this is the case, she will not REALIZE she is doing it - it's very deep, very subconscious, kind of a need she feels. You can probably find some online magazine articles about it. I'm not saying that's her, but it's one possibility.


Turnera, have I mentioned that I like you before???  Seriously just had an epiphany on some dynamics happening in my extended family solely thru this post... Thank you!!!!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Aw shucks 

lol


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It brings to mind Sixth Sense, where it turns out the dead girl was poisoned by her mom, because it made the mom the eternal victim - oh, you poor woman, how do you manage, it must be horrible to have such a sick child, you're a true martyr... I forget the name of that disease of people who do that.


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## wemogirl (May 31, 2011)

turnera said:


> It brings to mind Sixth Sense, where it turns out the dead girl was poisoned by her mom, because it made the mom the eternal victim - oh, you poor woman, how do you manage, it must be horrible to have such a sick child, you're a true martyr... I forget the name of that disease of people who do that.


Munchausen by Proxy.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

heartsbreaking said:


> Your current perspective presents like you're doing all the "right" things in the relationship and she's behaving immaturely and unappreciative. While this could be the case, your behavior in return will only be reinforcing these patterns between you. It sounds like you need to create some healthy boundaries if she name-calls, stamps her feet and lacks manners.
> 
> It's great you're in counciling. I hope she continues with you - I don't understand why she'd have a problem trusting you in relation to the therapist. Do you know why? If she's keen to continue therapy with you, would it be worthwhile switching to a different therapist, perhaps a male, to help ease her mind until you start getting to the root of what's going on or is she fine now that you're going together?


I hope I'm doing the right things. I'll admit I'm far from perfect and I can often seem distracted and inattentive. On the other hand, I don't feel very motivated to pay attention (to her at least) when any attempts I do make at improving are only met by more criticism. But I really do try to be a good dad and husband.

Interesting question about the therapist. At the time, the only thing she knew about the therapist was that she was female. I had gone to a couple of sessions without my wife at first. One day, she changed her mind and decided to go with me. I thought it was an abrupt change, but she had apparently been thinking about it for a few weeks. Anyway, she said she wanted to come to the very next session which was a couple of days away. Between trying to arrange babysitting and checking with the therapist to make sure it was OK if what she thought was a one-on-one session would turn into a couples session, I told my wife I wasn't sure if we could pull off a couples visit on such short notice. She immediately exploded on me, wondering why I thought it was a "bother" for both of us to go to counseling after I had been "badgering" her for months to go. She accused me of being wishy-washy and two-faced. Apparently in her mind, the only reason I would be stressed about a change of counseling plans on short notice was because I was having a fling.

Now that she has met the counselor, she knows this lady is a strict professional, exceedingly ethical, and a grandmotherly figure to boot. So my wife has no questions now about whether I'm steppin' out with the therapist. But the only way I can piece it together was that we had a misunderstanding and a last minute change of plans, and I didn't instantly embrace the plan and run with it. So of course the only explanation for that must be an affair, right?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Mephisto said:


> Turnera, have I mentioned that I like you before???  Seriously just had an epiphany on some dynamics happening in my extended family solely thru this post... Thank you!!!!!


:iagree: Her posts are preceptive and sometimes clairvoyant.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

OK, got "No More Mr. Nice Guy." Interesting so far. I think all the examples in the first chapter could have been written by me. I especially felt for the poor guy who got his daughter all dressed one morning only to have his wife tell him it was the wrong outfit. Or when she came into the kitchen while he was still cleaning it and criticized him because he hadn't wiped down the counter yet. Boy, did that bring back some memories!

Still working my way through it. Tough to find time to read because I don't dare leave it where she can see it. I even checked it our from the library so it wouldn't show up on our credit card from Amazon! The existence of this book is something I don't think I should let out of the bag just yet.

Tonight, my son wanted to go on a ride with his trike. She told me to stay within 2 driveways of our house, so she could keep an eye on me. I decided to quit enabling her unreasonable behavior. I told her he was my son and I could take him on a bike ride around the block if I wanted to. I did, but she followed us as well, about a half a block away the whole time, just to make sure our son was safe.

After his bed time, I asked her why she thought I was so irresponsible. She brought up the same laundry list I've heard before with a new one; apparently, I forgot to lock one of the doors the other night before going to bed (we live in a fairly safe neighborhood on a dead-end street). On the night in question, she was arguing with me and snapped at me to "Just go to bed" so I did. Yes, I was careless to leave the door unlocked. But the situation was not exactly helped by our fight. And she was still awake in the living room for another couple of hours, so she caught the door thing before turning in. But that's another example of how unsafe I am to have in the house. 

Oh yeah, I also allowed our son to draw with a crayon on top of the heat pump, and I forgot to water some flowers in the corner of the yard not hit by the sprinkler so now they're wilting. She actually used the defacement of the heat pump and the wilting flowers as proof that I can't take care of my son. (I have since cleaned off the scribblings from the heat pump and watered the flowers). On the heat pump thing, she actually called it a "stupid" thing to do in front of our son.

She said if I take our son on any more bike rides out of her sight, she'll take him and leave for an undisclosed location to "keep him safe." When I asked her what she would do if I laid down the same ultimatum, she stated, "Our therapist said when one of us says a conversation is over, it's over. This one's over." Interesting to me how she can take our therapist's advice to end a conversation when I ask a question that's tough to answer. But I'm respecting her "time out" and venting here instead.

Wish I knew an answer for this mess. I'm feeling hopeless that this can be resolved. It breaks my heart to think of my little guy growing up in another man's home.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> Wish I knew an answer for this mess. I'm feeling hopeless that this can be resolved.


Hurt, I suggest you also get _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ at the library. It is the best-selling BPD book targeted to the spouses and partners of BPDers. As I indicated above, I am not convinced your W has strong BPD traits because you seem to have noticed such behavior only in the past two years -- not the preceding 13 years.

Yet, the symptoms you mention -- verbal abuse, blaming, inability to trust, black-white thinking, difficult parents, and fibromyalgia -- are troubling red flags. There may be some other red flags you will recognize when reading that book. I also suggest that you go to a clinical psychologist for at least one visit -- on your own and without your W -- to obtain a professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. If your W does have strong BPD traits, the psych is far more likely to speak candidly about such traits if she is not his client, in which case he does not have to protect her from that knowledge.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> I don't dare leave it where she can see it. I even checked it our from the library so it wouldn't show up on our credit card from Amazon! The existence of this book is something I don't think I should let out of the bag just yet.


Because...?

You don't want her to know you are growing a spine? Why? Is she going to beat you up?

If you want a real marriage, for god's sake, start being honest with her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If your wife has threatened to take your child away from you, you need to report it. Not sure to whom, exactly, but you need to get it written down, legally, somewhere so that if she disappears, she will have a 'record.' Once you have taken that step, the next time she threatens you, you can say 'go ahead; I've already reported you, and if you take him away from me, the police will be looking for YOU, not me.'


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> Because...?
> 
> You don't want her to know you are growing a spine? Why? Is she going to beat you up?
> 
> If you want a real marriage, for god's sake, start being honest with her.


The subtitle of the book is: "Getting what you want in love, sex and life."

In her current frame of mind, she would probably see this as a handbook on how to have an affair. I thought I'd let my actions speak for themselves. If she thinks I'm just doing something because a book said to, it might not be as credible. That's how she thinks.

BTW, the move I made where I looked her in the eye and told her I was going to take our son on his bike was a result of the book. Her reaction speaks for itself.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Thought I had a good day today. Tried to shower my son with attention. Tried to take care of a couple of things that my wife needed done. Played and laughed a lot with the little tike. There was one incident after supper tonight, when my son had my boots on (looked adorable) and was trying to fit his feet into a space that they normally fit but wouldn't with my size 11 boots on. He started getting cranky, and was asking me to help him. I was sitting there watching this develop, trying to decide the best course of action; do I tell him he has to take my boots off? Do I try to help him ( I was actually concerned if he did fit his feet into this space he might twist his knee or something)? Do I try to distract him? I was trying to decide what to do for maybe 5 or 6 seconds, when she starts yelling at me that I'm ignoring him and damaging his emotions. After he went to bed, she told me that was proof that I didn't care about him. Said if I really wanted her and him to stay, she wanted to see some proof that I'm fighting for our marriage. Said I was apathetic and ignoring him on purpose.

Am I really that bad a father?


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

By what you've stated, you do not sound like a bad father. Your wife on the other hand needs some serious therapy. I agree, if she is in chronic pain that could very well contribute to her demeanor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I do not listen to comments from lunatics. Maybe you should try that.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> I do not listen to comments from lunatics. Maybe you should try that.


I've always believed it's impossible to reason with an unreasonable person. However, it's a pretty high bar to declare your own spouse a lunatic (or unreasonable). Guess that's why I'm seeing a counselor and posting here; I want to make sure I'm perceiving things correctly before I go down that road.

I don't want to precipitously make an accusation that could haunt our relationship forever. But I'm beginning to wonder if a true mental illness (as opposed to anger or depression that is appropriate to the circumstance) is at work here.


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## grendelsmom (Aug 1, 2011)

To me, this sounds like a pretty classic, easily-recognizable verbally abusive relationship. Since reading seems to be a help to you, add The Verbally Abusive Relationship to your list. Or at least search some forums on the topic and see if what you find doesn't sound uncannily familiar.

It's not you, it's her. I'm sure you're not perfect, but it seems what you do wrong is fairly minor whereas what she does is seriously unreasonable and controlling. That you're a good guy for me is evidenced by the fact that you're here, you're writing the kind of posts you have, and that you obviously care and are willing to accept responsibility for your part in the problem. 

You are in a very tough situation, and I really feel for you. It's the type of relationship I had every single time I had a relationship except for two. Just understand that she is putting you down to keep you uncertain about yourself so that she can control you. When you start to doubt your perceptions the way you've described, that's called crazy-making behavior, and she seems to be a master at it. It doesn't mean she does any of this intentionally, but she does it, and it's got to stop if you're going to have a healthy relationship and raise a healthy child (much of this behavior is learned in childhood). 

There's no excuse for the way she is acting. Just because someone is sick doesn't mean she has the right to act like a jerk. Fibromyalgia is no excuse--I have it, and so do many people I've known, and it doesn't make us act that way. They are two entirely separate issues. Honestly, she may have some underlying "mental illness," but that is a separate issue also. This is just classic verbally/mentally abusive behavior on her part. That is the major problem, and it's not easy to face.

From my own experience, I'll say that I bet the reason you'll tolerate the way she acts is because you're afraid of losing love. But it doesn't work that way. #1 Ask yourself who she loves most? Herself, right? #2 Verbal abusers won't usually leave you. You'll leave them. They tend to flip out when you insist on taking back the power they've stolen from you, but so what? I'll tell you what--it won't kill you. You'll feel better afterward for having stood up for yourself. Someone has to do it, and you know she won't. #3 The reason a verbal abuser has to fight so hard to keep you by constantly beating you down is because inside she is afraid to death of losing you too. Just keep that in mind. Ultimately, you are likely the one with more power in the situation, although the opposite may seem to be true. 

As for her taking your son, that's against the law. More than they ever used to be, courts try to be very egalitarian and not automatically award the child to the mother. She might be able to get away with it temporarily, but I doubt it'd last. After all, she'll have to get child support from you, right? I'd say you'd have a strong basis to get custody away from her, actually. But document, document, document everything in those cases. Even writing a list with dates and times things occurred helps, believe it or not. Letting others know what is going on would help too. 

If I were you, I'd seek counseling for myself so the counselor doesn't have to be so "fair" to her.


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

Your wife sounds like she was raised by parents with NPD and now she has developed the disorder herself. She's manipulated you into being her slave. She's playing the victim. She's never wrong. Poor her.

The fact that she wants to control you and your relationship with your therapist is a huge red flag. You do realize this is why she started going with you, right? Because she wants to control what you say to the therapist and wants to control what the therapist thinks of her.

She is also controlling your relationship with your child. She is showing your son through her actions that "daddy cannot be trusted". She is making sure that your son is going to align himself with her, not you. This is right out of the narcissists playbook. She is going to make sure that she is portrayed as the better parent, the parent who does everything for him, etc. Your son will grow up feeling indebted to your wife. Do not let her do this!

It's time to set some boundaries and to stop allowing her to call all the shots. She has you convinced that you are a bad father and a bad husband but you sound like you are trying so hard to do everything right. She's got you just where she wants you. This is not good for your son to see. For his sake, you need to get some help.

Stop doing MC and find an individual therapist (find a psychologist) who can help you with your own issues. Your parents were critical you say and you probably gravitated to your wife because she's critical, too. People often do this. Your therapist can help you figure out what is truly going on with you. Tell your wife your therapy is your own business and that she cannot join you. Tell her she can go to her own. She will not like this, because she will realize that you are trying to develop your own autonomy and identity. But you must change the dynamic.

And I am really worried about your son. You have to start doing things with him solo. When she says she will drive you somewhere, tell her no thanks and that you are going to enjoy some guy time with your son. Again, she will not be happy, but do it anyway. And I would really start to pay attention to how your wife interacts with your son. If she is verbally always reminding him "Mommy is so good to you." or "Mommy does it best", you need to figure out ways to stop her programming him. 

Finally, please read up on narcissism and narcissistic parents and see if any of the descriptions fit.

Your comments about her parents make it sound like they are narcissists. If this is the case, you will have to learn to deal with them and your wife in a very specific, strategic way.


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

The other thing I would say is to read up on Parental Alienation. Her calling you a bad father in front of your child is parental alienation. Many folks with personality disorders do this, often when divorced, but also in marriage.

Again, please, please read up on narcissisism and narcissistic parents. It really sounds like she has NPD like her parents.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I didn't mean a REAL lunatic. It was a figure of speech!

Don't engage with someone when they aren't interested in having a rational, productive, respectful conversation, ok?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Laurae1967 said:


> Your wife sounds like she was raised by parents with NPD and now she has developed the disorder herself. She's manipulated you into being her slave. She's playing the victim. She's never wrong. Poor her.


Exactly.

I don't think anyone is saying she's mentally insane or anything. But she IS very selfish, very illogical, and apparently incapable - at least at this point, without some seriousl therapy - of maintaining a true loving relationship. I've known people like that, and there simply is no reasoning with them - unless they HAVE to. 

That 'have to' has to come from you. And it starts with you standing up for yourself, refusing to listen to her nonsense, and YOU guiding the family as the Leader of the home.

Do you know how an abuser maintains control over his victim? By constantly changing the rules. You're bad because you do ABC. So you stop doing ABC. But now you're bad because you do XYZ. So you stop doing XYZ. But if you're really just DO 123, you'd be worth keeping. So you start doing 123. And why aren't you doing ABC, for God's sake?!

See how it works? 

She has to maintain control by finding fault in you. 

Only YOU can make that no longer work. 

If I were you I would get a spiral notebook (shows it wasn't altered; you can't insert pages in a spiral), and start a daily list of everything that goes on. Somewhere down the road, you are going to be taken to task for what she perceives as a 'bad man.' You're going to have to defend yourself. The notebook, when looking at the day to day rantings, is going to ruin her case. You may need that.

Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy yet? Do that this week.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Thanks to everyone for your insight. Reading No More Mr. Nice Guy now. 

If it helps give you insight into her background, my wife's family is so dysfunctional it makes my overbearing mother seem downright well-adjusted! There was literally a spouse-abuse / murder that occurred (her uncle gunned his wife down in the family living room), suicides, sexual abuse, and Satanism in the family tree. Fortunately, the sexual abuse and Satanism never occurred in her immediate family - her mom and dad are God-fearing folk, for all their faults - but I'm sure it affected them somehow. Her mom was sexually abused as a teen. It just goes on and on.

Her issues are not surprising, but they are devastating.

To answer another question, the only reason I stay is my son. I want him to have both parents, even if the do both live in different rooms. And so far, her interaction with him has been nothing but loving, so I don't feel that she has started taking out her issues on him. She is an exceptional mother and dotes on him constantly. She's strict when she needs to be, but is otherwise very loving. If I thought for a moment she was doing long-term harm to him, I'd take him and leave in a moment. But she is a great mother.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Here's an update on our situation:

The last couple of weeks things have settled down. I did bring up the bike incident in our counseling session. The counselor told my wife it sounded as if she saw herself as a mother to me. My wife said "Yes." She said she felt as if she was living with two children. She then went on to scold me about a couple of other shortcomings of mine. I reflexively went into the posture I usually take when she's scolding me; I generally just look down at the floor and pray to God the lecture ends soon. I've learned the hard way that arguing back and trying to defend myself only prolongs the argument. I didn't even realize what I was doing. I just went into my "she's being unreasonable" posture. The counselor jumped in to ask us to look at our physical postures; her sitting up straight and scolding, me looking at the floor like a whipped puppy. I don't know if it opened my wife's eyes, but it sure as hell opened mine.

Since that session, my wife has suggested that I take our son out for ice cream or to go to church (one day when she wasn't feeling well). Don't know if this is a good sign, but she at least "let" me take our son out for a drive.

I documented all this in a spiral-ring notebook (as recommended by a poster here!). That way, if she tries to claim that she doesn't want him taking a ride with me in the car with him again, I can show that there is a past precedent where I was allowed to take him in car. Or else, it will be useful for potential future litigation. Either way, I think I'm covered.

She's also commented positively about some of my parental choices recently regarding discipline. She's even asked if she could read the book recommended by our counselor ("1-2-3 Magic").

I am not optimistic yet. I've seen her attitude improve before only to have my world come crashing down on me again. But for the time being at least, she seems to be grudgingly accepting of the fact that I am not Satan incarnate.

I keep praying that the therapy continues to produce results. I want my wife to like me again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What work are you doing on yourself so you can stand up to her more easily? You can't just expect HER to change.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

I guess I've been responding dysfunctionally for so long, I'm not sure where to begin. I know I need to stand up to her when she's being unreasonable, but I'm so relieved when the tension dies down that I don't want to start another war. I guess I suffer a little bit from emotional Stockholm syndrome. 

Our finances are strained pretty tight right now with paying for Marriage Counseling. I don't know how we can afford for me to do individual counseling as well.

Part of my strategy is the documentation I've started doing. That way, when she becomes unreasonable again (or if worse comes to worse and she decides to divorce me), I will have some objective facts I can go back to. Believe it or not, this will help me feel more confident when the time comes to confront. She often has such a different perspective on different events and discussions that I sometimes wonder if we're speaking the same language. In the past, I've let her buffalo me because I begin to doubt my own recollection. So the documentation / journaling I'm doing is part of my strategy that will eventually lead me to confront her behavior.

Our marriage counselor is talking to both of us separately as well as together. I'm hoping that I can gain more insight into my lack of a spine in these sessions.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You can learn a lot of such things just by reading books. Start with No More Mr. Nice Guy. Then read Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. (and join the website the book is from). Just doing those two things will help you see what your life SHOULD look like. And once you know what it's supposed to look like, you can better recognize instances where you are backsliding and giving in just to keep the peace - that way you know when to say NO, and to NOT give in. One give in at a time - that's how you stop the abuse, ok?

If you recognize that you always let her drive the car because she says something like 'you drive like a maniac! I'm never getting in the car with you! Give me the keys!' - that is not normal. And you shouldn't be allowing it. So make a promise to yourself that the next time the opportunity arises, you WILL CHANGE IT. You WILL say 'I'm sorry you think that, but I haven't had an accident in 8 years, I'm a perfectly safe driver, and I AM going to drive us to the store.' But then you have to actually WALK to the car, get IN the driver's seat, and start driving, ok?

The only way she will wipe that crazy image of you out of her head is if you start disabusing her of that notion. Through your actions. Start small, with seemingly unimportant things, like where you keep your toothbrush. But be consistent.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Tunera, I don't know who you are, but your insights are always powerful.

On another side note, even in the middle of this dysfunction, I can find things to laugh about. One day we were on a trip to see family. She was angry with me about something silly (she thought I had intentionally left a window open in the room all three of us were sleeping in; it turned cold overnight and our son woke up with the sniffles. On the other hand, I thought she had already closed the window since she went to bed first. These are the stupid things she blames me for....), so she insisted that she drive home. I slid into the back seat so I could keep our son occupied, so it was OK by me. I don't get as much time with him as I'd like, so I was looking forward to playing with him in his car seat. 

We stopped at a rest area that served both directions of travel for the highway we were on. After we had "rested," we got back in the car and she was still in a mood. She went tearing back onto the highway (nothing unsafe, but not babying the car either), but going the wrong direction. I sat in the back for a couple of miles wondering what would make her least angry? Should I tell her and risk her telling me she knew what she was doing? Or let her find out the hard way? I finally decided she would definitely be more angry if we went 50 miles out of our way so I could prove a point. I tapped her on the shoulder and said, "Would it make you angry if I gave you some advice?" She curtly said, "What is it?" I said, "Home is behind us, not in front."

She found a turnaround and did a 180, never saying thanks or "Oops" or anything. I never brought it up again. If I had done that, she would have tried to take the car keys away from me.

I might be a little inattentive at times, but I've always known the difference between east and west. To me, this incident is funny in a sad, dysfunctional sort of way. It makes me chuckle when she's telling me I never pay enough attention....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hurt, I've got to tell you that, if you were a female describing your events, we would be telling you to find a battered woman's shelter.

The SHEER AMOUNT of belittling she does, and the acquiescing you do, is beyond the norm. It is approaching dangerous mental abuse. I'm serious. It's hard for you to see it from inside, but from outside, all the 'give ins' that you do is frankly startlling and scary.

I hope you will bring it up to your MC privately, and give them all the examples you've given here, and ask them what to do.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Tunera,
As always, you're forcing me to wake up and smell the coffee. I'll talk to the counselor at my next opportunity. She's recommended I read "Stop Walking on Eggshells," so I've reserved it at our local library.

I've always wondered about something in our past; we had a rough patch about 6 or 7 years ago. Not this bad, but still bad enough. Then our doctor recommended Cymbalta for her fibromyalgia. Not only did Cymbalta help her pain and give her more energy, but we those were the happiest days of our marriage. Our sex life was vibrant, she actually enjoyed spending time with me, we engaged in hobbies together. But slowly, the Cymbalta lost its effectiveness and she eventually discontinued it.

I've always wondered: Since Cymbalta was originally prescribed as an anti-depressant, is there a chance that there are some kind of brain chemistry problems at work here? Is she literally sick in the head?

Unfortunately, she has been diagnosed with liver inflammation (manageable, but serious if not treated), so Cymbalta and all other drugs that could potentially strain her liver are out of the question. So I don't think there is any "hope" coming in the form of chemistry. But those 2 years she was on Cymbalta sure were amazing.

I'll take your words under advisement. It's hard to think of breaking up a marriage of 17 years, especially since we waited so long for our precious little boy. I don't want him to be raised by another man or do the every-other-weekend-at-daddy's routine, but I want to be able to show him how an authentic man behaves. 

That means I need to get my stuff together now.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> I'll talk to the counselor at my next opportunity. She's recommended I read "Stop Walking on Eggshells," so I've reserved it at our local library.


Hurt, that's the same book I recommended to you three weeks ago (post 39 above). It's the best selling book targeted to the spouses and partners of BPD sufferers. I believe you will find it helpful. Yet, if your W is actually suffering from strong BPD traits, you should have noticed them all through your 15 year marriage -- not just in the last 10 months. I therefore am very interested in hearing what you have to say after reading that book. At issue is whether the traits described in that book will ring a bell for you. If your W has strong BPD traits, most of that book likely will read like a biography of her life.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't see why you have to break up the marriage. You just have to step up and become a 'man.' Learn about boundaries and enforce them. Educate yourself on her mental issues and find and implement workarounds. Go against your grain and start being a stronger force in your family to get the ship back on keel (is that the right way to say that? lol).

Is it a lot of hard work? Sure. But it's a lot LESS work than living in two homes.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Uptown said:


> Hurt, that's the same book I recommended to you three weeks ago (post 39 above). It's the best selling book targeted to the spouses and partners of BPD sufferers. I believe you will find it helpful. Yet, if your W is actually suffering from strong BPD traits, you should have noticed them all through your 15 year marriage -- not just in the last 10 months. I therefore am very interested in hearing what you have to say after reading that book. At issue is whether the traits described in that book will ring a bell for you. If your W has strong BPD traits, most of that book likely will read like a biography of her life.


Exactly. AND, it's likely the MC sees it too, and wants YOU to verify it.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

So I have a 1-hour commute each way, every day. Yesterday, the interstate I take had a 3-car accident. After about an hour of the interstate being completely shut down, 3 additional cars tied up in the gridlock had another accident. 2 accidents, 6 cars involved. Gridlock backed traffic up for 8 miles or more. The first accident occurred at 4:30 and it was 9 PM before traffic was fully back to normal. Additionally, several cars along the way overheated and broke down, which added to the fun. 

When I first hit the slowdown, I waited about 5 or 10 minutes, then called to tell her that traffic was tied up and I had no idea when I'd be home. 90 minutes later, she called me, very angry. "Are you coming home tonight? Where are you? Why didn't you call me?" I explained that I had called and that I still had no idea when I was going to be home. She grew more testy the longer I talked and abruptly said goodbye and hung up. 

I started out this morning by handing her a printout from the local newspaper's website with the story of yesterday's mayhem. I told her I had sensed a definite lack of trust last night (she frequently questions whether I'm having an affair; I think it's beyond her to imagine we might be having difficulties just because she is so difficult). She said she felt like I was trying to mislead her. She said at the instant I called her, even if traffic had suddenly started moving again, I would have still been 10 minutes late. Since I didn't divulge this fact to her at the moment I called, she felt like I was misleading her and blaming my lateness on a traffic jam whose extent I didn't know until much later. In other words, the moment I called her I was already late and I didn't specifically state that.

I responded by telling her that when I say "I have no idea what time I'll be home, " that should be a self-evident statement. She said she felt I was being dishonest. We agreed to disagree and quit discussing it.

Once again, I turn to my virtual support group. Was I in the wrong on this issue? For the record, I am not having, nor have I ever had, an affair. Not even any serious flirting. An affair would only make a bad situation much, much worse.

What should I have done to more firmly establish the boundaries I'm hoping to establish here? How could I have handled this situation differently? I'm still trying out the "No more walking on eggshells" concept, so I'm curious how others would have handled this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Come on. Don't you know by now that guilty people project onto you so that you can't look badly at them? You're too busy defending YOURSELF! She will continue to blame everything on you so you don't make her look at herself.

Why do you even bother replying? 'I'm sorry you feel that way.' and walk away.

The no more eggshells means you STOP defending yourself. Unless you have done something wrong, if she tries to blame you, you look her in the eye and just say 'really?' and walk away. Take away her power.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Hurt, I agree with Turnera. When your W is sulking and behaving like a spoiled four-year-old, it is impossible to reason with her because she accepts her intense feelings as constituting reality. To her, the feelings are so intense that they MUST be right. If she has strong BPD traits, she is driven by these intense feelings -- which she refuses to challenge intellectually. It therefore is counter-productive to defend yourself. 

If you are determined to remain in the marriage, the best thing you can do -- and it will help only a little bit -- is to validate her feelings by saying you recognize she has such and such feelings and you are sorry she feels that way. Then you give her a brief explanation -- once. Then you walk away. As Turnera says, you should not be feeling that you must defend yourself. The problem lies with her and only she can fix it. Validation techniques are discussed in the _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ book you are reading.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

OK, I see how my behavior didn't quite set new standards for establishing boundaries. But after years of her stuff, I'm still trying to calibrate my own perceptions here. She was off-base for taking a simple traffic jam and turning into a huge mess, wasn't she? Was I in the wrong to get feel that her reaction was inappropriate?

Sometimes, I feel like I've been messed with so much, I don't even trust my own perceptions any more.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> She was off-base for taking a simple traffic jam and turning into a huge mess, wasn't she?


Yes, absolutely. That's what I was referring to when I said she was "sulking and behaving like a spoiled four-year-old." Indeed, she was so far off-base that she got there because she listens only to her intense feelings, not the logical part of her mind. This means you cannot reason with her. And, because she is far out in left field, there is no reason for you to feel defensive. Instead, think of her as a four-year-old in those moments. That is what you are dealing with.


> Sometimes, I feel like I've been messed with so much, I don't even trust my own perceptions any more.


Every partner of a BPDer knows exactly what you are talking about. That confusion is so common that, at the BPD websites targeted to spouses and partners, they have given it a name: FOG. Because the BPDers are absolutely convinced that their intense feelings MUST be correct, they produce a long series of false rationalizations to justify their behavior. Because those rationalizations are projections created at her subconscious level, the BPDer consciously believes them and therefore can be very VERY convincing.

On top of that, BPDers also deliberately create false arguments to control their partners because they are so fearful of abandonment. These false arguments are so well known that partners have given it a name too: gaslighting. As I mentioned earlier, it is named after the classic 1944 movie "Gaslight," in which a husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy so as to have her institutionalized, allowing him to run off with her family jewels. One of his tricks is to keep turning the gaslights down a little bit every day and then claiming that he sees just fine.

The result of such abusive treatment is that most partners leave the relationship within 12 months. Those who choose to stay -- as I did for 15 years -- usually become disoriented and very confused. In addition, they start forgetting what their real personalities are because they have been walking on eggshells for years -- not being their true selves. This is why -- of the ten personality disorders -- BPD is the only one that is notorious for making the non-BPD partners feel like they are losing their minds.

As I cautioned earlier, however, she cannot be suffering from strong BPD traits if you did not see such red flags until the end of your 13-year relationship. Such traits do not vanish for years at a time. This is why I encouraged you to read _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ to see if the nine traits sound familiar. There is nothing subtle about traits such as verbal abuse, black-white thinking, distrustfulness, and lack of impulse control.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> She was off-base for taking a simple traffic jam and turning into a huge mess, wasn't she? Was I in the wrong to get feel that her reaction was inappropriate?


Was she off base? She was legitimately annoyed that you were late. When a women is annoyed, they have zero hesitation letting their man know about it. This is 100% normal and typical. What you have to do is stop being the sponge for all her negative feelings to be unloaded into.

Now your big mistake was to feel her reaction was inappropriate and allow it to affect you. Your woman is mad over the situation and when she calls you, you represent the situation and the source. You have to become immune to her emotional outbursts. What you have to do is when your wife speaks to you in a nasty tone of voice you have to tell her to stop speaking to you like that. That is your first order of business. Tell her you will be glad to discuss the situation if she is willing to treat you with respect. Once your wife is speaking to you respectfully, it is OK to acknowledge a mistake: Dear, I see that you became upset and I should have called you again with an update. If she refuses to speak to you with respect, tell her you will continue with this conversation when she is ready to speak to you calmly.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hicks, the problem with that is that that person - without mental help - will NEVER accept responsibility. We are close friends to such a person and they literally turn your lives upside down if you don't set rigid standards.

This woman literally GAVE her daughter to us - offered (in front of her daughter) to meet us in court so she could hand over her daughter and give up responsibility for her. And she NEVER saw that she did anything wrong.

You CANNOT reason with such a person.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> You CANNOT reason with such a person.


And believe me, I've tried. I remember once I wanted to address an issue where I felt demeaned in some way. I could have been argumentative and started out with "Why did you ridicule me?" But I didn't. I not only didn't want her to feel instantly defensive, but I was perfectly willing to accept the fact that maybe I was perceiving things differently than they actually were. So I approached it like I've been told by counselors to do: "When you did that thing the other night, it hurt my feelings...."

Her response? "(Sarcastic tone on) Oh Boo-Hoo. I'm so sorry about your precious little feelings! Grow up and be a man!"

I've tried time and again to be reasonable. But sometimes I feel as if we're speaking a different language.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I feel for you if she does have BPD. Your like will be a living H*ll forever...trust me, I have BPD. It took a horrendous thing for me to seek the help I desperately needed. I wish you the best of luck. Another good book for you to read to get insight is I Hate You, Don't Leave Me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So are you ready to send her packing?


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

She has fibro? A chronic illness of tiredness and pain? competently diagnosed?

If so, her weakening health might be a strong contributor to her poor mental outlook.

Do a lot of research on resolving her fibro. Look at all options.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> So are you ready to send her packing?


No. Because while I have many faults, I'm not a quitter. I made a vow and I'm going to keep it unless I believe us staying together would harm our son. So far, she's been an exceptional mother to him. If she ever turns on him, I'll send her packing, but as long as she is loving and nurturing with him, I an not a quitter.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Then you ought to start educating yourself on how to set healthy boundaries so your son will grow up learing to be like YOU, not her. Just not quitting is not necessarily a great role model.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Here is an update on my situation:

Things have continued to deteriorate. After a lot of research about BPD and reading stories at bpdfamily.com, I have come to the sad conclusion that my wife probably has BPD, and that the long-term prognosis is not good. In addition, my wife started making some wildly paranoid accusations against me, including that I was bugging our house phone to spy on her. My mother-in-law became so "concerned" about my alleged "bugging" that she even called the local police and asked them to come over to our house and do a welfare check. I guess she assumed I had also tied up my wife and child in addition to the non-existent phone bugs. The poor cop who came to the door to check on us looked as confused as I was. But the cops at my door - especially at the behest of my dysfunctional mother-in-law, who hates my guts - was something I couldn't take lightly.

After much prayer and a lot of consultation with close, trusted friends, I finally laid down an ultimatum for my wife about two weeks ago; she either return to counseling with me or I consider divorcing her. I think the whole ultimatum caught her off-guard, but the more I talked it over with her, the more I realized she had been thinking the same thing. She even admitted to me after about an hour of talking that if she had felt that she could have gotten full custody of our son, she would have been long gone. That told me a lot about where we are. 

I said something durinIg this conversation that was probably ill-advised. During the context of a discussion about what kind of marriage we were modeling for our son, my wife asked me what kind of model we would be giving if we split up. I told her that a model of being happy in divorce was probably a better model than the current one; constant anger and tension, him never seeing mommy and daddy kissing or holding hands. Mommy and daddy sleeping in separate rooms. No sex (although I'm pretty sure he hasn't figured that one out!). I think I also mentioned in passing that maybe at some point in the future, each of us might get into a relationship that was healthy, and that could also be a good model for him.

Word to the wise: Never, ever, ever mention the possibility of another relationship - how ever remote it is - to a spouse with BPD when you're having the divorce talk.

I'm afraid I've mixed things up a little bit. In my bid to make sure I leave no stone unturned in my attempt to get good counsel, I'm afraid I've muddied the waters. I went back and visited our previous marriage counselor, who is now apparently my personal therapist due to my wife's refusal to return. But I also talked to the pastor of our local church about it.

My therapist (who is also a Christian) says that divorce is completely understandable in my situation. She says the (untrue) allegations of physical and emotional abuse alone have put me in a very precarious situation. She advised me to seek legal counsel immediately. I did so; more on that in a minute.

However, I also wanted to talk things over with my pastor. As it turns out, my wife had also talked to him and told him her side of the story - basically that I'd gone "off the deep end" and wanted to go find someone else to marry. For the record, there is no someone else. She took that one comment I made about some hypothetical future relationship if we do divorce, and made it sound as if that were the reason I wanted out. 

The truth of the matter is, I do want to be married to my soul-mate. I was hoping it was her. I still do at times. 

But the issues are much deeper than this. She has falsely accused me of being mentally and physically abusive. Not to the authorities, because she knows she can't prove it. But to her family, and our friends. People I've known for a decade or more are now questioning whether I'm stable enough to be around my own son. This not only has implications for my family, but also for my job. I have a job which has a fairly high level of responsibility attached to it. Allegations of mental instability could be enough to threaten my career.

We met together with our pastor this week, and I must say that I was extremely frustrated and hurt by his advice. He told me that I needed to banish all thoughts of leaving from my head. He said that God would honor me if I became a "human punching bag" (his words) and decided that I wasn't going to fight for my rights. He ended up telling us we needed to hug each other again.

My gosh, I felt as if I had been punched in the gut. I was physically ill and didn't sleep a wink that night. Was he for real? How do you hug a spouse who unjustly believes you to be physically abusive? I'm afraid to touch her right now, because I don't know how it will be misinterpreted. 

I also completely disagree with his "human punching bag" advice. Laying down and being a doormat is what I've done for far too long, and it's gotten me nowhere. Was he really suggesting that just giving in to my wife's unreasonable behavior what God would want me to do? I just can't express my disbelief at how naive this man was. Here's a man who has been my pastor for almost a decade, and now when I need his advice the most, that's what I get? I was flabbergasted!

On another front, I went to my family doctor for a routine physical. It was that time of year again any way, and I wanted to make sure he ruled out anything that could be ruled out that way (high or low thyroid, etc.). My bloodwork came back completely normal. I'm as healthy as any 44-year old man has a right to expect. The doctor did suggest that if I really wanted to prove my mental health, he could refer me to a couple of psychiatrists who could give me a personality profile. But his take was that given the nature of my job (among other things), he figured any pathological mental issues would have been discovered long ago.

I did get a consultation with an attorney. For now, she's not too concerned about the abuse allegations, because they have not involved the authorities. She cautioned me that doing anything about it at this point to protect myself might call more attention to the allegations than they deserved. She also gave me my full range of options regarding divorce or dissolution.

I'm going to take all of this - my attorney's advice, my pastor's advice, and my doctor's recommendations - to my therapist this week and try to come up with a game plan.

My biggest concern here is my son; whatever I do, I don't want him to be hurt. If Mommy and Daddy always fighting and Mommy calling Daddy abusive, stupid, lazy, etc. is the best model we can give him, I'm ready to call it quits. I think being a part-time Daddy who's emotionally healthy beats being a full-time Daddy who's too drained to care.

I also need to consider what future outrages can occur. If she honestly believes that I've been abusive to her and our son, and that I'm really bugging my own phone lines, who knows what weird things she'll accuse me of in the future. As my understanding of BPD grows, it's becoming more and more clear to me that my wife just doesn't see reality the way I do. While most of us have certain "filters" through which we see the world, a person with BPD has filters that are much more vivid and distorted. To put it bluntly, she can't always separate what's really happened versus her internal biases of what is likely to happen. When she looks at me, she sees her abusive uncle, or her abusive grandfather, or her dysfunctional sisters. She doesn't see me for who I am.

I know this decision is mine alone. But I would appreciate any feedback and perspective. Is it better to leave, become more emotionally healthy, and interact with my son on a part-time basis? Or is it better to stay in this living hell, try my best to paint on a happy face, and become a "human punching bag," so my son can have an "intact" home?

Also, prayers for me to have wisdom in this decision are much appreciated.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I truly feel for your situation. I am so sorry that you are dealing with someone like me. 

For your own mental health the obvious choice is divorce. There is no way your situation will ever improve if she will not seek help. By you "becoming a human punching bag" the situation will only worsen. 

Also, not to alarm you but, studies have shown that children of a BPD parent will generally be BPD themselves. My youngest daughter who is only 12 is ADHD. When we say her psychiatrist for the first time he saw BPD traits in her without even yet knowing I am a BPD'er. 

Although I am not a religious person in any way, I will pray for you to come to the best decision possible that you can live with.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> She has falsely accused me of being mentally and physically abusive.


Hurt, her accusations of your being abusive are getting worse but there certainly is nothing new about them. A year ago, she accused you of being a danger to your son (by being neglectful) when he burned his finger on the lawnmower. Then there was the bike incident. And, last July, she was refusing to let you drive him anywhere in the car because you could not be trusted to look out for his safety. 

Indeed, things were so bad last July that you named this thread "She doesn't trust me." Moreover, if you are correct about her having strong BPD traits -- and I believe you are -- she has never been capable of trusting you for any extended period.


> I also need to consider what future outrages can occur. If she honestly believes that I've been abusive to her and our son, and that I'm really bugging my own phone lines, who knows what weird things she'll accuse me of in the future.


Yes, absolutely! It is important to realize that her behavior likely will get worse and she will make outrageous claims that you cannot imagine she is capable of saying. It is common for BPDers to call the police and have their husbands thrown into jail. Because the BPDers are firmly convinced that their mental projections are actually true, they make very persuasive allegations when the police arrive. 

That is what happened to me. My exW had me arrested for "brutalizing" her. Actually, I had only pushed her away from a bedroom door that she was trying to destroy during one of her rages (because I had retreated to the safety of the bedroom). Yet, because she had tripped and fallen down when stepping backward, she was convinced I was attacking her. Because it was early on a Saturday morning, I spent nearly three days in jail before I could go before a judge for arraignment.

Prior to entering the courtroom, I spent several hours in a holding cell with 99 other guys. All of the white guys -- there were only three of us -- had been arrested for being "wife beaters." IMO, the other two white guys had been falsely accused just like I had been. 

One of them was a young professor in the physics department at a local university and had only been married a short time. I would not be surprised if at least a third of the men arrested for domestic violence (indeed, perhaps even half of them) are falsely accused by vindictive BPDer women.

I therefore believe that, as long as you continue living with an untreated BPDer, you are at risk of being slandered. Being thrown in jail is bad enough. The far greater risk, however, is that she will succeed at doing what she has been trying to do for the past year -- obtain "evidence" that you are abusive and thus pose a threat to your son. 

There are many ways in which that may occur. If she is on blood thinner, for example, she will immediately have large bruises when simply bumping against a table while walking past it. She also will immediately show large bruises -- due to the blood thinner -- when you shove her off of you during one of her rages. 

I mention this because my exW was on blood thinner and thus quickly had two dark bruises where my palms had pressed against her chest (when pushing her away from the door she was destroying). The bruises form within minutes. She showed the bruises to the police and they photographed them. She then used the photos in court against me. I managed to do well in court only because I had evidence (i.e., insurance statements and checks) that I had been sending her to psychologists for 15 years and that she had been hospitalized when threatening suicide.


> I finally laid down an ultimatum for my wife about two weeks ago; she either return to counseling with me or I consider divorcing her.


I hope that, by "counseling," you mean IC rather than MC. IME, MC is a total waste of money and time until a BPDer has had several years of IC -- because her problems go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills. Until those deeper issues are addressed, any improvement in communication skills will likely only serve to make her better at manipulating you.

Another concern I have is that, if your W agrees to therapy only to prevent your leaving, there is little chance it will do no good. As you know, I spent over $200,000 sending my exW to weekly therapy with six different psychologists for 15 years -- all to no avail. Unless the W really wants the therapy badly for HERSELF (not to satisfy your demands), it will do no good.

A third concern is that, because therapy will take several years (at the least) to work, you will be at risk throughout that time of losing your job (due to the rumors she is spreading), being thrown in jail, and losing custody of your son. Moreover, once your W has such damaging "evidence" of you being a threat to your son, you will not be able to get any professional to testify about her compromised mental functioning. 

As I've explained in many other threads, psychologists are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer client the name of her disorder -- and they absolutely detest going into court to testify against a client. This reluctance is so well known that one California law firm (Bonne Bridges) warns _on its website_ that there is virtually no chance of obtaining expert testimony against a BPDer spouse. See http://www.bonnebridges.com/pdf/Borderline_Personality_Disorder.pdf.

A fourth problem is that, even in the unlikely event she does stay in therapy for years -- as my exW did for 15 years -- it is very VERY difficult to determine whether she is making any real progress. Because BPDers are emotionally unstable, they are always dramatically improving every two or three weeks -- in just the same way that smokers are seen to be successfully "quitting" a hundred times, over and over again. I mention this because I don't want you to go down the path I took, where I deceived myself into believing that I had seen some real improvement.


> She had felt that she could have gotten full custody of our son, she would have been long gone. That told me a lot about where we are.


Yes, it speaks volumes.


> She took that one comment I made about some hypothetical future relationship if we do divorce, and made it sound as if that were the reason I wanted out.


Hurt, please don't beat yourself up over making that minor comment. Indeed, you shouldn't give it a second thought. If your W is a BPDer, she has a powerful need to perceive you as the evil "perpetrator" to reinforce and "validate" her false self image of being the victim, always "the victim." Hence, if you don't provide her with a statement she can twist into "evil intent," her subconscious mind will project that evil intent onto you anyway. 

This means that, if you never even open your mouth, she will be running all over town badmouthing you anyway. Part of it will be outright lies but most of it will be false projections she believes to be true (making her more persuasive). Further, as soon as you decide to walk away from this toxic marriage, she likely will be accusing you of such terrible things that this latest allegation (of your "wanting to remarry") will be far down the list. By comparison, it will likely sound like a complement at that time.


> I also completely disagree with [our pastor's] "human punching bag" advice. Laying down and being a doormat is what I've done for far too long, and it's gotten me nowhere.


One reason that codependency is so rampant throughout our culture is that many churches still prescribe it as the only path to getting into heaven. That is, if your W strikes you on the right cheek, you're supposed to offer her your left cheek too.


> I'm afraid to touch her right now, because I don't know how it will be misinterpreted.


That statement scares the devil out of me! I don't fear for your physical safety but, rather, for your risk of losing custody of your son.


> When she looks at me, she sees her abusive uncle, or her abusive grandfather, or her dysfunctional sisters. She doesn't see me for who I am.


If she is a BPDer, that is true but it is only part of the problem. In addition, she has a desperate need to rid herself of all the bad thoughts and selfish desires she has. Having a fragile ego and being filled with self loathing, it would be extremely painful for her to deal with the guilt and shame arising from a recognition of having such bad thoughts. 

This is why, on a daily basis, she will be using you as a trashcan in which to dispose of all that guilt and shame. She accomplishes that, at a subconscious level, by projecting her bad thoughts and selfish desires onto you. She fully escapes the guilt because her conscious mind really believes the thoughts are coming from YOU. With my exW, for example, I could often tell what she was thinking by taking note of what she was accusing me of wanting to do.

Hence, a BPDer will not only misinterpret things you do or say but -- in addition to that -- will blame you for every bad thought crossing her mind. This is important to know because it means it is impossible to escape being blamed. Even if you say or do absolutely NOTHING, you will still be blamed for every bad thought she has and for every misfortune that befalls her. As I said, your role is being "the perpetrator" and hers is being "the victim."


> I would appreciate any feedback and perspective. Is it better to leave .... or to stay in this living hell....?


Hurt, you knew the answer to that question when we started discussing her BPD traits last summer. But, like any good caregiver -- and just as I did for a long time -- you have declined to take action. You've been putting yourself at risk in a generous effort to make sure no stone has been left unturned. Well, based on what you said today, it looks like all the stones are now upside down. Indeed, she's even started throwing them at you.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Had a good session with my counselor tonight. She helped me consider all my options. At the end of the session, she told me to trust my gut. She said after working with me for a year, she knows my instincts are pretty much spot-on. Doesn't make the emotional impact of the decision I think I need to make any easier. But it does feel good to know that I'm not crazy.

I need to develop an escape plan while protecting myself from false accusations. I need all my ducks iin a row before I make a break. The counselor warned me that once I make my intentions known, it will get ugly qquickly. So I need to prepare now to mitigate the damage later.

If you believe in God, keep me in your prayers.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Hurt, you should be keeping a log of these events at your work so you have documentation of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

First, you should buy a voice-activated recorder and keep it in your pocket at all times, just in case she tries to get rid of you by calling the cops again. My Evil Stepmother did that to my husband; we had to visit with CPS, even though the CPS lady told us she could tell the charge was fabricated. She advised us to sue my stepmother for defamation (she included several of her friends in on the allegations). We didn't. Because of that, we spent about 4 years trying to prove her wrong to our friends and neighbors, as the 'rumor' went around the neighborhood, started as being abusive and morphing into my husband being a child molester on the prowl. Our daughter lost every single friend except one (whose parents knew us well), and by the time we finally moved, kids were coming up to her in 6th grade asking her about her child molester father. We were in Indian Princess (the YMCA organization that takes dads and daughters out camping), and the night beforre the first campout, the rumor mill caught up with that group, too, and they called and told my husband they didn't have room for him and our daughter. We had to threaten to sue the YMCA to get her into another tribe, that hadn't heard the rumor.

This is my way of telling you: document, record, film, and always keep someone else around you as a witness until you are legally divorced. Consider setting up cameras in the house if your lawyer will allow it. Protect yourself.

And find a good book on BPD and give it to her parents. You never know, they may recognize her in it.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> ..... we had to visit with CPS, even though the CPS lady told us she could tell the charge was fabricated.....


My counselor brought up this very scenario. I am in a job that requires me to keep a clean criminal record, so I'm really concerned about this one. My counselor advised me to practive disengaging at the slightest disagreement until I can get all my ducks in a row.



> This is my way of telling you: document, record, film, and always keep someone else around you as a witness until you are legally divorced. Consider setting up cameras in the house if your lawyer will allow it. Protect yourself.....


I hear you. My counselor also advised me to secure my documentation in a place where it can't be discovered.



> And find a good book on BPD and give it to her parents. You never know, they may recognize her in it.


Sadly, I think her parents are as BPD as her, or worse. They have been a big part of our problem throughout our relationship. When we first met, they hated me. There was a period of grudging respect, then they liked me for a while. Now they hate me again. So I really don't believe this will do much good, and will only make the fire worse.

But thanks for the good advice! This is a bad place to be in.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Hurt, you should be keeping a log of these events at your work so you have documentation of them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm already on that. Thanks for the tip, though!


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

I'm becoming more conflicted about this. For the last two weeks, things have become less confrontational. It's not as if we're lovers again, or as if we've actually talked through some of the issues. But she has been making a concerted effort to be nice to me. Or at least reasonable.

On the one hand, I think it's incredibly sad that I think that her merely being nice to someone she still treats as a sibling as a major improvement. But at least she's not accusing me of the off-the-wall stuff like spousal abuse (without me ever laying a hand on her) or bugging our phones. 

Isn't this called Stockholm Syndrome? 

My counselor said that the bad times will return eventually and that I need to be prepared. But it's just so conflicting to be making plans to end things on the one hand, and yet come home to a peaceful, if not exactly romantic, home on the other hand.

If she were unreasonable all the time, this would be so much easier. But the push-pull drives me nuts! It's just enough to give me a glimmer of hope. 

The counselor also told me to trust my instincts. And they're screaming at me that this is only temporary. But it sure is nice being able to eat a meal or watch TV together without constant arguing.

I can't stand this! Arghhh!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

While you're trusting your instincts, also write down what you'd expect in ANY wife, to be able to have a fulfilling marriage and life with her. Then analyze what you've got and whether it adds up to your basic needs.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And there may BE hope...down the road. After she's had TONS of therapy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Taking her back before she's undergone that therapy will only keep her from getting help.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> And there may BE hope...down the road. After she's had TONS of therapy.


That's what I keep hearing. And I just don't know if I've got that much hope left. Look at all the qualifiers in your statement....there MAY be hope......a long time from now......IF she gets TONS of therapy.

I just don't think I've got that much patience left. Plus the whole time she's on her road to healing, I could be losing my son, my job or both because of some baseless allegation.

I just don't think I've got it left in me to stick with this much longer.....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Honestly, you shouldn't KEEP sticking with it. You can always get back together later. 

But right now, you need Tough Love for her. She NEEDS help and she won't get it as long as you keep rescuing her. 

That's why you need a plan. If she won't ABC by XX/XX, I will file for divorce. And then you move on. And, if she figures it out down the road, she can run to catch up with you.

But in the meantime, YOU are fixing yourself and becoming a good dad and person - regardless of what she does.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Tunera, throughout this year-long saga, you've been a constant voice of reason and sanity. Not sure why I was so slow to see the light, but thanks for your insights!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

hurt, my advice is based on psychology, a pet project of mine. You simply can't deny psychology - it will do what it will do. 

You can rail against it all you want, but a person raised in XYZ environment is predisposed to do ABC in 123 experience.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And most betrayed spouses are slow to the realization. Just human natuire.. I often telll BSs to seek out other BSs and learn what worked for them, as it's a pretty universal reaction.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Yesterday, we got into an argument about a dryer vent. It amazes me how the simplest conversation can go thermonuclear. I told her I wanted to rerun our dryer vent, because I've been reading a lot about lint hazards and the fires they can cause. I also had done some research in the national and local building codes and had some concerns about our current setup (our laundry room is in the center of our house, so there's no exterior wall to vent the dryer through). No big deal. She didn't like what I was proposing to do. She pointed to all the other houses in the neighborhood and asked why they were OK and ours wasn't. I said I wasn't responsible for their house, only mine, and in my opinion there was a safer alternative.

During this time, that "edge" kept creeping into her voice. She finally said, "Are you saying you're better than everybody else on our street? Why do you think you're smarter than everyone else? Are you telling me you think every house on the block is going to burn down because of dryer lint?" I told her that I was going to take a walk around the block and I'd come back when we could discuss this more calmly.

Here's where it went off the rails. My 3-year old was standing there listening (one of the reasons I wanted to de-escalate). He said he wanted to go with me. I told him "Sure. Daddy would love to have you join him on a walk!" 

My wife ran in front of me (I was about to walk out the door), slammed the open door shut in front of me, and told me in no uncertain terms that I wasn't taking our son for a walk. She said if I was so angry I needed to take a walk, I was too angry to be with him. I replied that I wasn't angry, and that I just felt the situation needed a little "time out." She refused to budge. Given her past accusations of abuse against me, I wasn't about to push her aside so I could get out. And now that I had promised my son a walk, I felt I would have crushed him if I had gone on a walk alone.

She then spent the next 15 minutes badgering me about the dryer vent. With our son listening. I repeatedly asked her to just drop it because he didn't need to hear all this. She kept insisting, "I haven't said anything I'm ashamed for him to hear!!" I asked her if the tone of the conversation was appropriate. Anybody who has live with someone with BPD knows this dance well.

Anyway, last night during bath time, my son asked me if the "tone" hurt me. I said, "What tone?" He said, "The tone that hurt you in your bedroom when you were talking to Momma." I just about died on the spot! Poor little boy! I knew my instincts were right about the whole thing! 

I cuddled him, kissed him, and told him it was all right. I assured him he hadn't done anything wrong. He kept insisting that he had. I asked him why. He said, "Because I was hearing it."

I want to cry when I think about that. That incident by itself is almost enough to make me decide to leave. Poor little boy! I'm worried he's blaming himself because (1) We had an argument, and (2) she wouldn't even let me disengage.

I'm still getting my ducks in a row. And searching my heart to make sure I'm making the right decision. But things like last night really cut deep!


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Here's where things got weird. After a few minutes away from the discussion, she simmered down and has acted like nothing happened ever since. In the past, I would have been treated to a 24-hour silent rage. Now, she's trying to joke and laugh with me as if everything's just fine.

I'd almost prefer the constant anger. At least then, I knew what I was dealing with. I know in her mind, she's trying to make an effort. But when things start spooling up and she starts getting in one of her "moods," I don't know what she's capable of.

This is so frustrating! Some days I don't know whether to be thankful that she's being reasonable for a while, or scared about when the next shoe is going to drop.

Argh!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> I assured him he hadn't done anything wrong. He kept insisting that he had. I asked him why. He said, "Because I was hearing it."


Hurt, your experience with your young son is so heartbreaking to read about that I cannot imagine how awful it was for you to experience first hand. I am so sorry that the three of you are suffering so.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Uptown said:


> Hurt, your experience with your young son is so heartbreaking to read about that I cannot imagine how awful it was for you to experience first hand. I am so sorry that the three of you are suffering so.


Me, too. That's what my biggest question is right now; will it cause more suffering if I leave? Or will that make the suffering even worse?

I think I know the answer, but I am so conflicted! I know this is ultimately my decision, but I feel so alone in making it! 

I really do just want to do the right thing in this mess. But I also want to experience a real marriage some time before I die. Are those goals mutually exclusive? These are the questions that keep me awake at night.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

In a perfect world, you'd get primary custody and you'd have a bigger influence on him. Realistically, you'll have him half the time and he will soon be able to differentiate the different 'tone' in the two houses, and he will logically gravitate toward being like you.

IMO, leaving is the best option for your son. And the ONLY way your wife is likely to get help.

Are you keeping a daily journal in a spiral binder? This can really be important when it comes to custody, to show a pattern.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

:iagree:Hurt, I agree with Turnera.


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## heavensangel (Feb 12, 2012)

grendelsmom said:


> From my own experience, I'll say that I bet the reason you'll tolerate the way she acts is because you're afraid of losing love. But it doesn't work that way. #1 Ask yourself who she loves most? Herself, right? #2 Verbal abusers won't usually leave you. You'll leave them. They tend to flip out when you insist on taking back the power they've stolen from you, but so what? I'll tell you what--it won't kill you. You'll feel better afterward for having stood up for yourself. Someone has to do it, and you know she won't. #3 The reason a verbal abuser has to fight so hard to keep you by constantly beating you down is because inside she is afraid to death of losing you too. Just keep that in mind. Ultimately, you are likely the one with more power in the situation, although the opposite may seem to be true.


Everything said here is absolutely right on!!! When I started sticking up for myself against my exH, is when the [email protected]&t really started to hit the fan but I did NOT back down. In doing so, I never felt better!


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> In a perfect world, you'd get primary custody and you'd have a bigger influence on him. Realistically, you'll have him half the time and he will soon be able to differentiate the different 'tone' in the two houses, and he will logically gravitate toward being like you.
> 
> IMO, leaving is the best option for your son. And the ONLY way your wife is likely to get help.
> 
> Are you keeping a daily journal in a spiral binder? This can really be important when it comes to custody, to show a pattern.


Tunera, yes I am. Been keeping a journal for years now. About a year ago I switched to the spiral notebook (I think at your suggestion; thanks!)

I don't want to go for full custody at this time. She is a great mom. She just hates me. I'm willing to become the non-custodial parent if that will be the least traumatic option for everyone involved. I figure it's better for me to be a well-adjusted part-time Daddy, than a full-time Daddy who's always emotionally drained and worried that she's going to trump up some kind of abuse charge when she gets angry at me for defending my boundaries.

I have sought legal advice on this, but haven't made a final decision yet. My lawyer says my wife doesn't have anything against me is nothing but hearsay, but my case against her is equally vague because personality disorders are so hard to prove in a legal sense. She figures that, best case, I could get joint custody. But she also said Ohio courts prefer not to get into joint custody situations because having two homes is just too confusing for the child.

My religious upbringing causes me to view divorce as the absolute last option after everything else has failed. I know most of you here who know my story think I'm already there, and I almost agree. I just need to make certain in the deepest place of my heart that I am doing the right thing. I guess I need to know that I know that I know this is the right thing to do, because I'll need that assurance to see me through the dark days ahead once I decide to move on this.

I guess that having my son worrying about some vague thing called a "tone" hurting Daddy should be wake-up call enough. I have some tough thinking to do this week......


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

I have another update, in case anyone here who's followed my story wants one....

My wife and son are spending the weekend with her parents'. So I have spent the weekend gathering up important information (credit card statements, mortgages, etc) that I'll need in case of legal action and have scanned them all onto a flash drive that I am keeping hidden.

I've also started the search for new housing arrangements. Keeping it very low-key, but definitely looking.

Started filling out paperwork online on one of those legal help websites so I can have everything squared away if and when I need to make a move.

Here's where I'd like a little bit of perspective. I'm not feeling very objective about this any more. I think I've been telling myself I want things to work out between us, and I really thought that was true. But this weekend, I've been forced to look a little deeper into my own heart, and I'd like some perspective on what I've discovered....

I wondered why I didn't feel sad about all the prep work I've been doing this weekend. To be truthful, I've actually been a little bit excited to be doing something and working toward a goal. And that really troubled me.

I realized that I have already grieved for the end of my marriage and have reached the "acceptance" stage of grief. Looking back over the last couple of years, I think I can clearly identify when I hit each of the 5 mileposts on the grief road. 

When thing first started going sour (this isn't the first time in our 18 year marriage that these BPD-like traits have popped up, but it's definitely been the worst!), I tried to convince myself that it was just an anomaly. I tried to deny anything was wrong. I figured if I could just explain myself the right way, she'd see my point and realize I wasn't evil incarnate.

I spent a lot of time bargaining. With God. With her. I promised I'd do whatever she wanted me to do, that I would try harder, that I would do whatever it took to please her. That I would forsake my own interests and hobbies, my friends, my own family members, things I felt were important to do, if she would just like me again. I didn't realize at the time what I was doing, but I think there was a lot of implicit bargaining going on. "Hey, I'll go to the doctor and get my hearing checked out if you'll go to counseling with me....." (This was in response to her complaint that I "never" heard her when she called to me).

Somewhere along the line, I just got angry. I went for 6 - 8 months where I rarely talked to people at church because I was just pissed. I talked to my co-workers, but a couple of them finally came by and asked me what was up because I had become more negative than is usual for me. I realize now that was the anger phase.

I think when I joined this forum last July, I was depressed. We were still in counseling (she has since quit going), but things were actually getting worse instead of better. I was feeling despair. I now recognize that as my "depression" phase.

I think around the holidays, I reached the acceptance phase. I realized that it was probably not going to get any better. That's why I confronted her in February and asked her to go back to counseling with me. I didn't really expect her to agree to it, but I was really just seeking confirmation that she had really given up.

So on the one hand, preparing for a separation and/or divorce is not sad for me at all, because I've already accepted it. In fact, I'm looking forward to the day when the daily stress will be noticeably lessened. It won't be easy being a part-time Daddy, but I'm realizing that being a part-time Daddy who's emotionally healthy is probably better for our son than being a full-time Daddy who's emotionally wasted because of constant battles with Momma.

On the other hand, I hope my acceptance of what is probably an inevitable outcome has not made me lose my objectivity. I keep torturing myself with questions like, "What if she has changed for the better, but the change is too subtle for me to see it yet?" Or "Can things get better if I just hang on a little while longer?"

My biggest fear is doing the wrong thing. I'm emotionally in a place where I WANT to be done with this drama. I want to move on to a healthier place for me. I want to become healthier so I can be a better Daddy for my son. I eventually want a shot - I know there is no certainty, but I want a chance at least - to be able to meet someone "normal" who I have a reasonable chance of building a good relationship with. I'm so sick of BPD and how it seems to color everything in my life right now.

I almost feel like a bad person for having given up before the decision is really made. I don't think I consciously decided, "OK, I'm going to spend the next 18 months grieving over my marriage, because it's as good as dead already." It's just something that happened quite unconsciously, as I tried to process everything that was happening in our marriage.

I told a friend yesterday that this was almost like losing my grandfather to Alzheimer's. By the time he actually died and we had a funeral, most of us were more relieved than sad. We had all done our grieving during the 10 years we watched him waste away and saw his personality slowly disappear in the fog of that terrible disease. His body quit breathing on a particular date, but the grandfather I had grown up with had died a long time before. That's how things feel with my marriage.

Am I a bad person for coming to this point? What if there is a slim chance at hope and I miss it because I'm already emotionally done and have reached acceptance? As much as I want out of this madness, I don't want to destroy my family if there's still a chance.

Help!


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

There is one other thing I forgot to include. Even when things were at their worst, I still made it a point to say, "I love you" every night. I knew things had gotten bad when she quit saying it back to me, sometime around July. When I asked her why, she said because "There's no love left."

Now the reality is, I hadn't had any "in love" feelings toward her for several months. But I still said, "I love you" because I believe sometimes you have to act the way you would if the feelings were there and the feelings will eventually return. But when she told me it "offended" her when I said it (or touched her), it was as if she gave me permission to quit denying how I was feeling. 

The problem is, now that I've started acted more consistently with my emotions instead of what I feel I'm "supposed" to do, I like the feeling of being emotionally honest. If she were to tell me tomorrow that she wanted me to hold her hand or to say, "I love you" again, I don't know if I could bring myself to do it. It's almost like I did it out of duty before, but once she told me that it offended her, it took the pressure off of me to act in ways I didn't always feel like acting. 

And once we quit saying "I love you's" and quit touching each other, we drifted even farther apart than we were before. But now I'm not sure I could ever go back to doing it out of a sense of duty. If I don't feel it, I'm not sure I can do it.

I feel like a horrible, awful person.

Not that this is an issue right now any way. She hasn't even hinted that she wants an "I love you" or my touch in any way whatsoever. I'm just thinking hypothetically here. If she did tell me it was OK to touch her again, I'm not sure I would want to.

How pathetic is that? Maybe it's another indication of the fact that I've reached the "acceptance" stage of grief. I just hope I didn't accept the end too soon.

Man, I feel lost tonight!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The thing is, women have to respect their men. Everything you've described is a weak man-type response. 

And you've been at this for way too long. Most 'plans' suggest that you not try to negotiate with a cheater or WAW for more than 3 to 4 months. If you stick around longer than that, you're just weak and begging them to come back to you - and NO woman can respect a man who does that. 

Move on. Get a new life. Show her that you respect yourself more than you 'need' her in your life. If anything makes her care about you again, that would be it. And if she doesn't 'bite,' then you've already moved on and secured a better life.


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## kittykat09 (Mar 26, 2012)

Good luck getting out of that situation. :/ My future father in law is in the process of divorcing his BPD wife. She also tried to accuse him of physical assault when he never touched her and she would scream at him until 3 in the morning. 

I'm so sorry that your son is getting caught in the middle, it sounds like you are a great father and with any luck your son will gravitate towards your influences while he grows up.

Be prepared... if she is anything like "AngryWoman" (as the father in law calls her), she wants NOTHING to do with you but will also refuse to actually let you go. There is just no making her happy, so don't use that as a motivator for anything related to her- it will just keep you in the crazypen with her.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> I almost feel like a bad person for having given up before the decision is really made.


Hurt, convincing the logical, adult part of your mind that your marriage is toxic (due to the strong BPD traits) was the EASY part. That likely took just a few weeks of reading and occurred months ago.

What is DIFFICULT is convincing your inner child, i.e., the intuitive emotional part of your mind. Significantly, the child likely lags many months behind your logical adult. This is a problem because, for all of us, that inner child likely makes nearly all of our important decisions. I was 50 years old before I understood that simple notion. And it took me 12 years to do it.

What happened was that, for 12 years, I took my bipolar foster son to a weekly family group meeting with the psychologist who was treating him. Whenever the psychologist challenged me on something, I always had an elaborate well-thought-out explanation for doing whatever I had chosen to do. Never mind that what I had chosen was not working with my foster son and never mind that I kept repeating the same pattern year after year.

The psychologist was always greatly amused by my explanations. He would laugh and point out, in his kindly fashion, that my elaborate rationalizations could not disguise the fact that my inner child -- not my adult -- was calling all the shots, making nearly all the decisions. In any contest between the adult and child, he claimed, the child would almost always win. But I just could not swallow that concept.

Yet, after twelve years of his gentle rebukes, it dawned on me one night -- right as I was about to drift into sleep -- why he had to be right. My inner child, I suddenly realized, is the sole judge of WHAT IS FUN and WHAT IS NOT FUN. _That decision is all powerful._ The adult part of my mind will nearly always conclude that it makes no sense -- indeed, would be preposterous -- to do something, go somewhere, or date someone I do not enjoy. My adult logic thus nearly always has to end up in the lap of my inner child.

This is why, as I noted above, learning about BPD and the toxic nature of your marriage is the easy part. What is difficult is internalizing that understanding, i.e., transforming knowledge into wisdom, which requires that your feelings catch up with your intellectual thoughts.

In my case, I had to persuade my child that my adult views of my ex's illness and my own codependency are correct. Had I failed in that effort, I would have remained stuck in a destructive pattern, repeating my past mistakes over and over, because my child will be calling nearly all the shots.

Because I had been in a 15 year relationship, it took me at least a year to bring my child's feelings into alignment with my adult's understanding. After just two weeks of intense reading on the Internet, I had a pretty good understanding of what I needed to do to get out of the toxic relationship and why I needed to do it.

Yet, because my child was over a year behind my adult, the child sabotaged my every effort to break away. It hindered me with nagging doubts, terrible guilt, and a strong feeling of obligation. It kept telling me that the theory floating around in the adult part of my mind was an insufficient basis on which to wholly abandon a loved one. Even after I had left her, I still refused to go No Contact for eight more months, at which point I finally realized she is incapable of ever being my friend.

My adult dragged my child -- with him kicking and screaming every inch of the way -- to that shocking truth. How do you accomplish that? How do you teach a child -- who had felt for forty years she was my best friend -- that she never had that capability?

To bring the child and adult into alignment, what helped me A LITTLE was talking about my new found knowledge to anyone who would listen. Well, that was good for a week. Then their eyes glazed over. So what helped THE MOST was coming to forums like TAM and BPDfamily, where I could discuss it with people who had been there, done that. Significantly, that helped my mind to associate feelings with each of the intellectual thoughts. That has to be done because the child only learns from emotional experiences -- not from logic.

Writing and talking will help you internalize the information, turning knowledge into wisdom -- by connecting thoughts to feelings. If you doubt that, simply ask any university professor about its effectiveness. They will quickly tell you they never had an intuitive, deep-level understanding of their subject matter until they had to teach it to someone else -- or had to write it down very precisely when doing research. Hence, what I found most helpful, Hurt, is talking about it to anyone who listens and writing about it to anyone who writes back.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Uptown said:


> Yet, because my child was over a year behind my adult, the child sabotaged my every effort to break away. It hindered me with nagging doubts, terrible guilt, and a strong feeling of obligation. .


Uptown,

I get completely what you're saying. To be honest, the only thing that has kept me around this long has been guilt and obligation. I feel like I'm SUPPOSED to be here until death do us part, so even though I WANT to get the hell out, I struggle with actually doing it.

I know that getting out of this toxic mess is what's best for me and my son. But I also know how devastated she'll be when I do finally make the break. That's the double-edged sword to a relationship with a BPD....I can't stay like this, but I feel too obligated to leave.

I will end up doing the right thing. But when the doubts and fears and obligations rear their ugly heads, what the "right thing" is suddenly becomes less clear.

Despite everything, I don't despise or hate her. I no longer have feelings of love for her, but I do pity her and feel profoundly sorry that she could have such a good life, but will probably never do so because her past wounds were so severe. It doesn't seem fair, but there's also no reason I should destroy my life over this. But then when I type that, it sounds so selfish.

That's why I post here so often. It's not necessarily that my resolve is weakening. If I know the right thing to do, I will do it with all my heart, no matter what it takes. I guess you could say it's my CONVICTION that's lagging. Is this really the right move? I'm just struggling so much right now....I want to KNOW absolutely for sure that this is the right move for me.

I'm getting so much support from the folks over at BPDfamily. A lot of them come across as a little more cynical than the folks here at TAM, but then again, they've seen enough trauma and drama to turn even Mother Theresa cynical. But they are very helpful and usually very clear-minded.

But at the end of the day, it will be ME sitting down with her and telling her I'm leaving. THAT'S the day I really dread.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Hurt, if your W is a BPDer as you suspect, she has the emotional development of a four year old. This means that, until she's had years of intensive treatment, she will tolerate living with you only as long as you keep walking on eggshells (not being yourself). 

If you continue doing that, however, you will keep harming her by preventing her from confronting her issues and learning how to grow up. I mention this again to you because the insight that most helped me get rid of the guilt (of walking away) was the recognition that my enabling behavior was hurting my exW, not helping her. To stop harming her, you must allow her to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior. Otherwise, she has no incentive -- and thus no chance -- to grow up emotionally.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I like to tell people that if they happen to have a dysfunctional spouse, they're doing no favors by staying WITH that person. The only way such a person will get help is if you stop being their crutch.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Last night, I talked to her about a couple of things that needed taken care 
of around the house....somehow, the conversation turned to her trust issues and how much she couldn't trust me, but she claims to be trying. 

I told her that in my opinion, a lot of her trust issues were due to the fact 
that she had become unreasonably angry over what were little items. I brought up a particular time when she spent 10 minutes yelling at me because I had gotten some spicy Thai noodles from a buffet. When we got home, my son thought it was spaghetti and wanted some, but the spices were burning my mouth so I told him he couldn't have any. At the time, she completely came unglued. 

Last night, she remained calm but unrepentant. First of all, she was upset that I would bring up something that happened a year ago. Then she said she had gotten mad at me because I was "taunting" my son and teasing him with something he couldn't have (which is such a completel distortion, I don't even know where to begin!). She refused to acknowledge that anything she had done was wrong, or inappropriate. She said I 
was the one with the problem because I couldn't "let it go." 

This morning, she called very apologetic and said she was sorry she had upset me about the noodles. I said that HER getting upset was the issue, not me. 

She asked me to give her a list of anything and everything else she had ever 
done that had offended me, so she could apologize and I wouldn't be offended any more. She said she's constantly surprised at how long I hold onto hurts. She claims to want to get it all out into the open and apologize for it so she won't continue to be surprised. 

I told her since I was at work, this wasn't an appropriate conversation to 
continue. We said goodbye and hung up. 

I think she's sensing me pulling away, and in true BPD-style is now desperately trying to do whatever it takes to keep me. The problem is, even if I were to make a list and she were to actually apologize for everything on it, it still wouldn't tackle the root problem. 

I'm sure she's going to keep hammering away at me this weekend to talk it all out so she can apologize. I have a counselor's appointement Tuesday, but I need to make it through the weekend without stepping on any landmines. 

Any thoughts?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> She asked me to give her a list of anything and everything else she had ever
> done that had offended me, so she could apologize and I wouldn't be offended any more. She said she's constantly surprised at how long I hold onto hurts. She claims to want to get it all out into the open and apologize for it so she won't continue to be surprised.


I think it's interesting she wants a checklist. Nevermind her overreacting and blowing up. She wants a checklist so she can say I'm sorry and rugsweep. 

Avoiding landmines? Don't think that's possible with BPD. The behavior is way too unpredictable.

I say continue to do what you're doing. Keep taking care of yourself and what YOU can control. Whatever comes up comes up, but remain calm about it. You know where it's coming from.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

A Bit Much said:


> I think it's interesting she wants a checklist. Nevermind her overreacting and blowing up. She wants a checklist so she can say I'm sorry and rugsweep.
> 
> .


My thoughts exactly. She'll say she's sorry and then I'm never allowed to bring it up again. In her mind, it's all done and settled.

But the root problem is that when she gets dysregulated, her perceptions become VERY distorted. I brought up another issue last night where she had become VERY unreasonable, and she dismissively said, "You need to go to sleep...you're so tired you're starting to make stuff up..." But I was there. I wrote down what happened. I know I'm not making it up.

So even if we "work through" our past issues, the problem is that her thinking disorder means there will be future issues. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but it will keep coming up again and again and again.

What makes me think about leaving is the bizarre and unfounded accusations of abuse and/or phone bugging she's made. At some point, she's going to make her story believable to someone. And I could lose it all - my family, my home, my career, my reputation. That scares me to death. 

Even if she ever shows an interest in sex with me again, I'm scared to death to do that because there's always the possibility she might see it as marital rape.

So the past issues are not the real issue. They are just symptoms of the real issues. And I can forgive and rug-sweep every single event, but that still won't fix the real issues.

This sucks!


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Yes it does suck.

I'd be so tempted to nanny-cam her or record her rants. Keep a month or two's worth of audio on her so if she ever did come out of a bag and accuse you falsely, you'd have undisputed proof otherwise.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

I agree with BitMuch that a nanny-cam or VAR could prove invaluable if she ever tries to have you arrested -- or engages in an ugly custody battle.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Protect yourself, do the best you can by your child, and best of luck.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm sorry, but why would you want to stay with someone like that? She needs serious mental help.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> I'm sorry, but why would you want to stay with someone like that? She needs serious mental help.


I don't. I've stayed way too long because I felt obligated to. But I don't WANT to. I am working on my escape plan.

But the BPD push-pull can be so believable. The "I'll apologize for everything I've ever done" phase almost - emphasis on ALMOST - can make the partner believe that maybe there's hope. The sad thing is, I've been here too many times in the past, got some false hope, and then had my hopes dashed.

But it's sure as hell confusing, even when you know what's happening!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It wouldn't be that confusing if you'd educate yourself more on her illness. Then you could recognize it, rather than be touched by it.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

I have an update. I know that what I'm about to report will disappoint a lot of people on here who have followed my story. 

At my last counselor's appointment, my counselor told me that it would be prudent for me to leave, and soon. She said the longer I stay, the more of a chance there is that I will be accused of something even worst than bugging the phones or battery (again, the abuse accusation is something I categorically deny). She told me I needed to look at trends and patterns, not the fact that the last 2 weeks have been relatively calm.

But the fact of the matter is, the last couple of weeks HAVE been relatively calm. No fights about dryer vents or "tones." My wife has actually gone out of her way to compliment me a couple of times. There have been some toddler-type bumps and bruises with my son that did not involve any kinds of accusations at all. Things that last year would have caused a 2week silent treatment just get dealt with as if it were normal toddler stuff now. We're not exactly affectionate - there's been no physical touch, no "I love you's," and definitely no sex. But things have definitely become less confrontational than they were even two weeks ago.

I just can't bring myself to walk out the door when things are improving. Granted, we have a long way to go before we have a marriage again. If I really am dealing with BPD, I know that I could lose everything tomorrow. But I just can't bring myself to break up our little family when there's even a whisper of a chance. I am consciously choosing - at this point at least - to ignore my counselor's advice. I'm still putting things like money and housing arrangements into place just in case. But for now, I'm sitting tight. I hope I don't regret this....

If we do stay together, I know I will need to bring all of this up and keep talking about it until we have some resolution. No more rug sweeping for me! But I've been warned by the counselor to avoid confrontational subjects for fear of triggering new rages and dysregulation. 

So I want to dive in and talk about things while the atmosphere has warmed up a little bit. But I'm afraid if I push too hard, too fast, I'll bring back the bad old days in a hurry.

I know that many of you on here will believe that I am a wimp. I probably am. Part of me wants to just run away as hard and as fast as I can. But part of me wonders if this is the beginning of a genuine thaw, an opening that just might allow us to bring forth something new out of what has been so bad for so long.

I feel so lost for being so indecisive. I know that once I tell her I'm leaving, that is a decision I won't be able to take back. And I'll probably be painted black for the rest of my life. Maybe not, and that's what is so maddening. I've seen her give me the silent treatment for a week over leaving a bedroom window open at night, but then I've also seen her be completely understanding and reasonable over something like my son's bike toppling over because I let him ride it too fast.

I just don't know what to think. I'm starting to see signs of depression creeping into my life...I don't want to do anything but sleep, I'm having trouble concentrating at work, my thoughts race at 10,000 miles an hour, I don't enjoy the things I normally enjoy. Last night in the back yard, I just started crying for no apparent reason at all (she was inside watching TV, so at least she didn't see me). A couple of times, I even wished I could just be randomly attacked by some stranger and killed so it would all be over. These are all signs that I clearly recognize as being the beginnings of depression.

I just don't want to give up too soon if there's still hope. But I also don't want to waste another year, or 5, or 20 if there's not going to be any improvement. I don't want to hang around trying to do the right thing if she's just going to make false accusations against me and make me lose my son.

I hate this feeling. I wish I could just make a decision and stick with it! I wish I knew what the future held so I could make an intelligent decision. 

I hate this.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

This is horrible, hurt. I would put a time limit on this--3-4 months perhaps, but no more than that. Your wife has to make a herculean effort to change, and she may not be capable of doing that.

Think of the example you are setting for your son. Do you want him to think that this is what marriage should be like?

I am glad that you are recognizing the signs of depression, because that is exactly what is happening to you.

Keep going to your counselor because you do need outside validation for your feelings.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree to the time limit. Give yourself til the end of May and if nothing has changed, move. Your son NEEDS you to be mentally healthy.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> This is horrible, hurt. I would put a time limit on this--3-4 months perhaps, but no more than that. Your wife has to make a herculean effort to change, and she may not be capable of doing that.
> 
> Think of the example you are setting for your son. Do you want him to think that this is what marriage should be like?
> 
> ...


Yes, it is horrible. It's about the worst thing I've ever faced. I feel like no decision I make will be exactly right. But I can't just continue to make NO decision.

There is one complication about the timing issue..her mom and dad are getting ready to move out of state next month (May). It's a long story, and her mom and dad are prone to buy into a lot of doomsday scenarios. They are moving from Ohio to western Kansas to begin building their "doomsday preppers" ranch. They're leaving all their daughters behind in Ohio. It's their decision to make, but I think them leaving their family to go build a survival compound is a little bit strange. But I respect their right to make strange decisions.

However, with her mom and dad leaving the state, she's been very emotional lately. I'm afraid if I leave in May at the same time her mom and dad do, she'll become very unstable. But if things get worse, I don't want to commit myself to staying around for 6 months until she can get adjusted to her parents' departure.

Plus, there's always the fear that if things get so bad she decides to take our son and run, it will be a multi-state custody scenario if she decides to join them in Kansas.

I literally feel like my head's gonna explode some days. I'm just not smart enough to deal with all the different angles on this. This hurts worse than last July when she accused me of "beating" him when he rode his bike in the street. I wish I had left then, but I was afraid it would make me look guilty.

My soul is weary. I'm so tired of thinking about this. It just hurts so bad.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Hmm. There will always be some excuse. Maybe instead of a time limit, you should see if she is willing to go to counseling. She has to show some willingness to work on her issues.

Have you spoken with a lawyer? Maybe it would be good to have your exit plan in place to give you confidence.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> Hmm. There will always be some excuse. Maybe instead of a time limit, you should see if she is willing to go to counseling. She has to show some willingness to work on her issues.
> 
> Have you spoken with a lawyer? Maybe it would be good to have your exit plan in place to give you confidence.


We tried counseling on and off for a year. She refused to go back with me when I asked at the first of this year. First of all, she said that the sessions just became "bash the wife night." (Our counselor is a female who wouldn't allow that to happen) Then she said I did nothing but lie (by which she means I told my side of the story, which she didn't agree with). She did offer to go back to counseling if my best friend did it (he's a psychologist), but that can't happen because his friendship with me would cloud his objectivity.

I have seen a lawyer and had an initial consultation. I need to put down a $1200 retainer for her to do any work on my case. Since my wife handles our bills, she would notice a $1200 debit going to a law firm and that would tip my hand pretty prematurely. I have been selling off some of my personal items (guns, ham radio, etc) to try to come up with some of the money, but I don't think I'll be able to come up with $1200.

The amount itself is not a problem, but being able to pay it "off the radar" is a problem. Once I make a payment like that through our normal channels, it will immediately set off the alarm bells. So I don't want to pay the retainer unless I'm really serious, because that's a move that will instantly telegraph my intentions. My counselor said preserving the element of surprise is important, because a pwBPD can go off the deep end and try to tell her "abuse" story to someone and try to deny me custody. Even if I am later proven innocent, it could take years before I can see my son again.

These are the things that make me wish I could just go to sleep and not wake up. It seems that no matter what move I make, there's always something blocking me. And I'm trying to do all of this secretly, so it's even more difficult!

I really, really hate this!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Are you on anti-depressants? Inability to make a decision is a key indicator of depression.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> Are you on anti-depressants? Inability to make a decision is a key indicator of depression.


I'm not on ant-depressants, although I'm sure I'm depressed. The question here is this: Is my depression inappropriate? I think given the magnitude of the decision I'm facing, having some mild.depression is completely appropriate. I'm not a big fan of medicating away depression that is temporary and appropriate. Once Im sure of the right decision, I'll decide and move forward. I'll bet my depression will ease, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Of course it's not inappropriate, but I feel it IS appropriate to go on ADs for a temporary period - in fact, it's very often suggested for people in your situation, just SO you can get through this making proper decisions. When my mom died a couple years ago, I just couldn't stop crying, for months. My GP put me on ADs for 3 months, and it made a world of difference. It just gave me the mental push to get up and do the right things. If you're thinking they will 'drug you out,' you're wrong - the ones I took, I couldn't even tell I was taking anything; it was just a slight willingness to get off my couch and accomplish things I didn't want to face.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> Of course it's not inappropriate, but I feel it IS appropriate to go on ADs for a temporary period - in fact, it's very often suggested for people in your situation, just SO you can get through this making proper decisions. When my mom died a couple years ago, I just couldn't stop crying, for months. My GP put me on ADs for 3 months, and it made a world of difference. It just gave me the mental push to get up and do the right things. If you're thinking they will 'drug you out,' you're wrong - the ones I took, I couldn't even tell I was taking anything; it was just a slight willingness to get off my couch and accomplish things I didn't want to face.


Tunera,

I really appreciate your perspective. I'm not ready to go the medication route yet, but you have given me something to think about. And I'm sorry about the loss of you mother, and how sad that made you feel.

The more I think about the accusations and false allegations - especially since she sincerely believes them to be so true - I'm beginning to see that leaving may be my only choice. But my religious upbringing has always stressed that leaving a marriage is the ABSOLUTE final option, to only be exercised when nothing else works. I guess what I'm struggling with is knowing whether I'm at that critical "I've tried everything and nothing has worked" stage, or if I should stick it out a little while longer. My counselor believes I am at that point. I'm just having a hard time internalizing her advice to me.


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## the gifted (Aug 31, 2011)

Now she can because you do not understand you answered her


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