# Daughter probably going to choose Dad



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

For those who know the whole parental alienation story, you realize this is really going to suck.

Kiddo has been weepy off and on for a while now. I thought maybe she was going to start her period but instead she's getting pressure from Dad, I think.

I have her phone and facebook password and "spot check" conversations for appropriateness. Because I was worried I popped in to see if she'd talked to friends about why she was sad. The only clue I got was "the same thing I've been dealing with for 10 years and I'm afraid I'll lose one of my parents one way or the other". Well, that's the divorce. And ex threatened for a long time that some day she'll hate me for keeping her away from him (note I was only limiting her time and courts agreed b/c of his mental health, poor parenting and manipulation to which she is blind). And my daughter told me when she was seven that her Dad said when she got older the courts would let her choose who to live with.

So I think now that her 14th birthday just passed that her father has been putting pressure on her to choose to live with him and she's afraid if she does I'll hate her and if she doesn't he will. This would mean living an hour away from me and going to a different school. And his promise of a car has now gone from a Mustang to a BMW convertible (even tho he lives with his Mom and drives a CRV with body damage he's never had repaired). I'm guessing he thinks if he's not paying support and instead receiving it he can afford this.

Whereas I've always told her when she learns to drive I'll get a new car and give her my well maintained and safe (side airbags, etc.) 4cy. sedan. Which I think is much better for a new driver. She won't need a powerful car.

This is all speculation but his comments and threats plus our history added to her angst as of late and the 10-year issue comment all lead me to believe this is where it's headed.

I took her out to dinner and had an honest conversation about the divorce with her and answered some tough questions openly. And told her that I realize there will come a time when she will be able to live where she wants and assured her no matter what I will ALWAYS love her and my home is always open to her.

I think she may choose him but I think she will be unhappy after a bit and start to spend more time with me once she's able to drive. I wanted her to know that I wouldn't ever hold that against her. She should never have to feel like she'll loose my love. I know her Dad has made his "love" contingent upon things and has guilted her into feeling responsible for his happiness. He has no life of his own which I feel is very unhealthy and emphasizes how she's everything to him. So I know she will have a hard time saying no to his pressure and more than anything I wanted her to be able to choose her Dad and KNOW she has me, too. I know she feels if she chooses me she'll loose her Dad. If this is the only way she can have both of us, then I'll be supportive for her sake. 

But I still keep hoping his triglycerides in the 700s plus high cholesterol and high BP will end up in a massive coronary soon. Where's karma when you need it?

I'm just sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop. I know it will happen in the next year or two.

Sorry for the length - I really just needed to vent some.


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

EnjoliWoman said:


> And his promise of a car has now gone from a Mustang to a BMW convertible (even tho he lives with his Mom and drives a CRV with body damage he's never had repaired).
> 
> I know her Dad has made his "love" contingent upon things and has guilted her into feeling responsible for his happiness. He has no life of his own which I feel is very unhealthy.


:slap: Oh great..there's ANOTHER one like that out there! :banghead: :slap:

Promising a 14 year old a BMW convertible is just plain ridiculous. Same with a Mustang. Even the base Mustangs are way too expensive and powerful for a new driver. Besides, what kind of values does that instill in a teenager? 

My H went out and BOUGHT my daughter a new car (2010 Nissan Cube) without even consulting with me. Originally she was going to buy her own car after saving up the money herself. I wanted to see her in a new, safe car with a warranty so my plan was to take the money she'd save and use it as a down payment on a new car and help her get a loan. 

I was happy that he did buy her a car because she works hard and could use the money she saved for other things (like college). Then he started to use the car as tool to manipulate, control and intimidate my daughter. 

It didn't work. He finally wound up taking it away and he's pretty much destroyed whatever relationship he had with our daughter. Now he's telling our 15 year old son he's going to "help" get him a car!  I keep telling him that his sister bought her own car that he will have to do the same. I don't want him to expect a new car from his father!

I helped my daughter buy another car..A nice, safe Mazda 2 that cost $15k that SHE is making the loan payments on. The loan is in HER name with me as co-signer and I'm paying the insurance. This way she is building credit, buying her OWN car and learning the value of a dollar. She's also paying for her college education. 

Going out and outright buying a 16 year old a car is well intentioned but I don't think it sends the right message. Your Ex is trying to buy your daughter's love. It doesn't work that way. If she doesn't respond or act the way HE wants her to then he'll use it as a weapon. That'll mess your daughter up big time. 

My daughter told her father to shove it when he tried to sell the car back to her at the cost of the rest of the loan on it and has walked away from him. She says "The father I loved died 3 years ago". Sad. 

But he dug his own grave. 

She loves her new car because it is HERS. She said that she could never feel good about paying money for a car that was supposed to be a gift. It would piss her off. She wanted to start fresh and I was glad to be able to help her out. 

But she earned it. If she wasn't working and doing well in school and ABLE to buy a new car I never would've helped her. I certainly wouldn't outright buy her one. That was never the plan. My H just went off and did what he wanted without my input. 

And yes, my STBXH drives around in a 10 year old Honda Element (same platform as the CRV) with body damage and lives off his father's money that was left to him. Interesting, eh?


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

As far as your daughter wanting to live with her father..Well that might happen. My 15 year old son chose to live with his father and would still be with him if his father hadn't started drinking and neglecting him. I had no problem with him living with his father. Sometimes you have to let kids choose and find out for themselves. 

Unfortunately it's the responsible parent who actually has to PARENT that gets tagged as being "boring" or "controlling" or "nagging". It's the burden we carry for being a PARENT and doing our job. In the end I hope that my son will look back on how I've been there for him and appreciate it but right now I can only do what needs to be done and do it the best way I can. 

One things for sure, you can't buy your kid's love. Or at least you shouldnt be able to. Your daughter is now at an age where she will be able to figure these things out for herself so you'll have to let her but also let her know that she'll always have a place with you. That's what I did with my son.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Your counting the days until the father of your child dies? Man he must have been a real piece of work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Holy moses, Enjoli! You're in the same boat as me!

Daughter is now 15yo. I left her dad when she was 14yo. She was originally going to come with me (7 hours drive, 1 state away), but decided to stay with her dad to finish high school.

He manipulates her (he's a narcisist) and promises her the world. When I went to pick her up for Xmas, she started crying because her DAD was all upset (about a 2 week visit!). When I was driving her home, SHE started crying because she was going to miss me (I, however, was NOT upset/crying).

She knows that if she had moved with me, her Dad would have cut her completely out of his life (living examples: his two older daughters), but if she stayed with him, she knew that I would never cut her out, or be mad at her for staying with him. By staying with him, she gets to keep both parents. She feels SORRY for him because he has no family. He actually DOES have family, but he's so arrogant and jack-assy that they don't have anything to do with him.

PM me if you need to talk, vent, commiserate, whatever!

I, too, am hoping that STBXH's 2-pack a day smoking, unmedicated high-blood pressure, bad diet, lack of exercise means he's due for a fatal heart attack soon. Mine's a better bet than yours, though, he's 64yo!


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Freak -

I totally agree on the appropriateness of the car and feel what I would provide is a better choice. I hope she sees her Dad for what he really is - I shared his diagnosis with her and gave her examples of how it impacted our marriage. I was careful to stick to facts and not my opinion or to bad-mouth him.

He has enmeshed their personalities and she really identifies with him. I think she's finally pulling out of that a tiny bit and becoming her own person. For years if he loved it, she did, too. If he hated it, she did, too (including me). 

I hope she eventually gets it but I know fighting it will back-fire so I have to let her learn on her own.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Ritchie - yes, he is. You can read my story via my sig line and if you want to know more at Parental Alienation Syndrome I posted in parenting section. It's been a he// of a ride. 

He stole my journal and used it in court because I had written that I wished he would die in a fatal car crash so I wouldn't have to deal with him. His attorney asked me on the stand if I wrote it. I looked at the judge and said "Yes, I wrote that. I don't think there's a woman alive who has been abused by her husband who hasn't wished her abuser dead at some point." The judge kind of nodded in understanding/agreement. I think his attorney was surprised that I owned it. I still do. He told our daughter that I wanted him dead. Of course he leaves out the fact he was abusive. She was four and only remembers yelling, not hitting. 

Edited to add: Of course I NEVER would tell my daughter such a thing. That was for my journal ONLY. I never told her I wished he'd just die.

He has made my life hell which is exactly what he threatened to do should I leave him. And he's doing it to our daughter in the name of "love" - the only reason he "loves" her is because he identifies her as being part of him and as a narcissist he can really only love himself, hence enmeshing their personalities so much.

"The best revenge is living well" - I live it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> I, too, am hoping that STBXH's 2-pack a day smoking, unmedicated high-blood pressure, bad diet, lack of exercise means he's due for a fatal heart attack soon. Mine's a better bet than yours, though, he's 64yo!


My dad is a full blown destructive narcissist. He passed away last Oct at the age of 71. And people in my family normally live to 90. Drinking did him in but he also had a bad diet and didn't exercise either.

To the OP I'm sorry that you're going through this. I have a friend dealing with the same thing right now. She's accepted her daughter will go stay with her dad but believes it won't last (I agree). All he wants is to pay less child support and for her to be his maid. Yeah that won't last long.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Slowly -

Yes, they sounds a lot alike! I left him when daughter was four and she just turned 14. Every couple of years he pulls some crap. Last time was June 2009 - May 2010 when he finally settled out of court for half the visitation he had prior once he saw the psychologist's report two weeks before our court date.

The guilt she has over feeling like she has to meet her Dad's needs is so wrong, but we can't tell them that, can we?

As to his health, he's 12 years older than I and will turn 57 this month. Not too far behind yours. 

Narcissism in it's truest form really does suck, doesn't it? The psychologist's report followed the diagnosis with "and is unlikely to see any improvement whatsoever even with long term intensive treatment". After I looked up NPD I SO understood our marriage! It was like a lightbulb turned on in my head. Now I just have to make sure daughter doesn't turn out that way so yes, I'm the logical, rule-enforcing parent while he's nothing but fun. He even sends her dirty clothes back after visits. 

And just like yours, even though he has a brother and SIL and nephews they totally disown him. He has step brothers/sisters (mom remarried after their dad died when he was in his 20s) that don't have anything to do with him. Literally only his mother cares about him and probably now needs him since she's in her 90s and he lives with her.

Ah the stories we could share!!!


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> My dad is a full blown destructive narcissist. He passed away last Oct at the age of 71. And people in my family normally live to 90. Drinking did him in but he also had a bad diet and didn't exercise either.
> 
> To the OP I'm sorry that you're going through this. I have a friend dealing with the same thing right now. She's accepted her daughter will go stay with her dad but believes it won't last (I agree). All he wants is to pay less child support and for her to be his maid. Yeah that won't last long.


Were you able to see this as a youngster or did you worship him? Kiddo thinks he walks on water (because he thinks so). Just curious how this will effect her. You seem so grounded.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Yep, my daughter is his live-in maid. I think it's been good for her in some ways...she HAS been forced to grow up. She used to do the usual whining about chores, "forget" them, argue about them. Now, if she doesn't do them...they don't get done! Oops, no clean clothes, oops nothing's ironed, oops bathroom's filthy!

She's been with him since end of May 2012 and is still going strong. I think he's been better with her since I left anyway. He ignored her the entire first 14 years of her life! If she wasn't doing something HE wanted to do (ride horses, go swimming), he'd simply disengage and pretend she didn't exist. Pretty hard to ignore her now that there's only the 2 of them in the house!

But she does tell him off when she thinks he's being a lazy jerk. So, good on her!

STBXH drove himself to the emergency room 7 days after I left! He was hospitalized with pneumonia; says he almost died. Was told to quit smoking; he hasn't...smokes as much as ever! He brings it on himself. The sooner he's gone, the sooner I will NO LONGER have to deal with him and his messes in any way, shape or form. Won't be soon enough for me.

BTW: His promised new car for her: new Cadillac! yeah, sure! I tell her 'don't get your hopes up!'


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Were you able to see this as a youngster or did you worship him? Kiddo thinks he walks on water (because he thinks so). Just curious how this will effect her. You seem so grounded.


I'm sad to say I worshipped him but my parents didn't divorce so I was with him CONSTANTLY. I thought he walked on water too. I was the golden child - his narcissistic supply.

He began to piss me off when I hit the latter teenage years with his controlling ways. I distanced myself from him but got sucked back in when I got married (25) because I wanted to appear "normal" to my new husband...yeah that was a mistake. LOL

I'm grounded because I've spent almost 4 years in therapy. I've done the work to heal. Being raised by a narcissist damaged me in ways I can't even begin to describe. And my mother was worse because she never once protected me. She hated me so I got it from both sides.

Fun fun but I don't regret any of it. I'm good now and happy.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> Kiddo thinks he walks on water (because he thinks so). Just curious how this will effect her.


Thank god, my kiddo sees him as he truly is. She's called him an ass, a d1ck, and an idiot since I've left (usually for his nasty, lying, crappy treatment of ME even though I'm gone.)

We had a LONG talk the night before I left. I laid out the facts for her. Told her I thought staying with him was unsafe because he's unstable, he doesn't have income, he promises anything, but doesn't deliver... Told her the truth. She's smart, she's seen it. I made sure she had a plan in place (friends who understand what's going on, somewhere to go, phone at all times, etc.)

She's made her choice and she has to accept ALL of it. I've told her she is welcome to live with me any time she wants to. But, there will be no jumping back and forth...live with dad till you have a fight, move in with mom till you disagree, move back to dad....Nope. If she comes here, it's to STAY.

We'll see how it goes.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Glad you got better/stronger, Mavash!


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Good idea, Slowly - about no bouncing back and forth. If she decides to go and then calls wanting to move back, I'll set that same expectation.

I think leaving when she was so young, she only got the Dad who takes her to the park, the beach, to the circus and lets her have ice cream whenever she wants it. He refuses to do homework with her because "he only sees her four days out of the month and isn't going to _waste_ their time doing homework." Great example.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Thank god, my kiddo sees him as he truly is. She's called him an ass, a d1ck, and an idiot since I've left (usually for his nasty, lying, crappy treatment of ME even though I'm gone.)


I knew this about my dad too. Our relationship was complicated because I was his surrogate wife (sans the sex). 

We did this triangulation thing where I joined him in being mean to my mother but because I cared about my mom I'd try to side with her too. My childhood was spent with me trying to make them both happy and I failed miserably.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I'm sad to say I worshipped him but my parents didn't divorce so I was with him CONSTANTLY. I thought he walked on water too. I was the golden child - his narcissistic supply.
> 
> He began to piss me off when I hit the latter teenage years with his controlling ways. I distanced myself from him but got sucked back in when I got married (25) because I wanted to appear "normal" to my new husband...yeah that was a mistake. LOL
> 
> ...


I'm glad you're well. Right now he refuses to let her take her phone with her to his house. He thinks I access it remotely and spy via the speaker and camera and using the locator feature.  So she has to leave it with me or if he gets her from school she has to turn it off and stick it in the linen closet under a pile of towels. Psycho.

I wondered if she'd ever see what he really is. I'm guessing when he starts acting pissy because she wants to go to the mall with friends or on a date with her boyfriend instead of spending every waking minute with him, there's going to be trouble.

I'm sorry your Mom was no help. I try to be my daughter's rock. I don't buy her love - I'm reliable, steady and have house rules to follow. I hope some day she sees that as more loving than the permissive type her father is.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I knew this about my dad too. Our relationship was complicated because I was his surrogate wife (sans the sex).
> 
> We did this triangulation thing where I joined him in being mean to my mother but because I cared about my mom I'd try to side with her too. My childhood was spent with me trying to make them both happy and I failed miserably.


That really stresses my daughter out.  I tried to keep her out of the middle. She was backing him up in his lies when she was 10 which was why I asked the court for a psych eval. I also got her a guardian ad litem who did a full custody evaluation. I didn't want her in the courtroom, on the stand or having to choose. I wanted the professionals to do it on her behalf. It was a roll of the dice in some ways but I felt pretty confident about my parenting skills and the home life I provided her. Turned out it was the best thing I could have done.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I wondered if she'd ever see what he really is. I'm guessing when he starts acting pissy because she wants to go to the mall with friends or on a date with her boyfriend instead of spending every waking minute with him, there's going to be trouble.


Mine lived vicariously through me so he wanted details about my dates and my life. He pushed me hard to do all the things he didn't do which meant me doing things I didn't want to do. It began to affect my health. Started drinking at the age of 15. Severe migraine headaches at the ripe old age of 17. I was one ball of stress. 

The only reason I knew he was an ass was how he treated my mother, my sister and other people. He actually treated me well (relatively speaking that is).


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

EnjoliWoman,

I know you know this.. Sometimes we have to let them make their own decisions.

Kids from divorced families often want to get to know the other parent better or think that it is greener on the other side. This happened with a few kids I know.

Two of my nephews chose to go live with their father at about age 15. After a short honeymoon period they came to realize on their own why their mother divorced their father. They lived with him for about 2 years and then returned to live with their mother. They are now in their late 30’s and have nothing to do with their father.

My step-daughter decided to go live with her mother in Florida when she was about 15. That lasted one year. At the end of the year she apparently told her mother off for abandoning her and her brother when they were 8/9. She then returned home to New Mexico and has lived here since. She’s turning 24 this year. She speaks to her mother on the phone about 2-3 times a year.

Kids generally get it. But sometimes they have to find out the truth on their own.

Be supportive of her as it sounds like you are. Let her know that whatever she does she is not losing you.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> That really stresses my daughter out.  I tried to keep her out of the middle. She was backing him up in his lies when she was 10 which was why I asked the court for a psych eval. I also got her a guardian ad litem who did a full custody evaluation. I didn't want her in the courtroom, on the stand or having to choose. I wanted the professionals to do it on her behalf. It was a roll of the dice in some ways but I felt pretty confident about my parenting skills and the home life I provided her. Turned out it was the best thing I could have done.


I wish my mom would have done this for me. You're a good mother. Your daughter is lucky to have you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm glad you're well. Right now he refuses to let her take her phone with her to his house. He thinks I access it remotely and spy via the speaker and camera and using the locator feature.  So she has to leave it with me or if he gets her from school she has to turn it off and stick it in the linen closet under a pile of towels. Psycho.
> 
> I wondered if she'd ever see what he really is. I'm guessing when he starts acting pissy because she wants to go to the mall with friends or on a date with her boyfriend instead of spending every waking minute with him, there's going to be trouble.


Yep, he's suffering from some kind of paranoia.

He’ll give her that great car. Then he will use it against her, threatening to take it away from her if she does not do as he wants her to do. I can see that coming a mile away.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If you have court ordered sole custody, what's up with her being allowed to chose where she wants to live. Is there something in the order saying she gets to do that?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Yep, he's suffering from some kind of paranoia.
> 
> He’ll give her that great car. Then he will use it against her, threatening to take it away from her if she does not do as he wants her to do. I can see that coming a mile away.


Yep my dad did the same down to the paranoia. The best thing that ever happened to me was when I totaled that car and had to buy a new to me one. He tried to bully me into signing the title over to him by saying he'd kick me out if I didn't. I stood up to him and said no. 

He backed down. Narcissists are just big bullies. I see that now.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> If you have court ordered sole custody, what's up with her being allowed to chose where she wants to live. Is there something in the order saying she gets to do that?


I was awarded primary legal and physical custody. But there does come a time when a child can force the issue and live with who they want. The court backs down because they don't want a bunch of runaway kids. 

Once they become teens, the court doesn't/can't really enforce it without risking the child running away so it becomes safer for the child to choose who they live with. There is no set age but generally once the child is of legal driving age the court no longer will try to enforce custody.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Yep, he's suffering from some kind of paranoia.
> 
> He’ll give her that great car. Then he will use it against her, threatening to take it away from her if she does not do as he wants her to do. I can see that coming a mile away.


Even if he gets her that car, maybe I won't trade mine in - I'll just get a new car park the accord in case she ever needs it because he's trying to coerce her.

My plan had been to give her my accord and buy a new car in 2 years so no real change of plan.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Enjoli,
Sorry to read this.
I have no kids but I can imagine that you feel as though you are loosing her to him. I can also see why she feels so conflicted in her mind.
This guy is really a control freak...,trying to bribe her with a BMW..

His cannot stand that you are actually happy and doing fine with _your_ life.
His aim is to make you miserable.
But I have no doubt that your daughter miss you if she cooses to stay with him...
She would be back.


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Yep, my daughter is his live-in maid. I think it's been good for her in some ways...she HAS been forced to grow up. She used to do the usual whining about chores, "forget" them, argue about them. Now, if she doesn't do them...they don't get done! Oops, no clean clothes, oops nothing's ironed, oops bathroom's filthy!


My STBXH tried that with my son when my son was with him. He just stopped cleaning up his apartment and hoped my son would do it. Nope. It was just a filthy apartment. Dishes piled up in the sink, dirty clothes everywhere, old food everywhere, filthy bathroom and other stuff I don't want to mention. I'm just sorry I didn't take pics of it all when I picked my son up to take him home. 

I feel for you mothers whose daughters worship these POS fathers. For my son to be that way just seems natural because I just think of a boy wanting to be with his father and they really are friends in many ways. I can't provide the companionship and relationship to my son that my husband does to my son so I'm glad his father is there for him. It makes my life easier in many ways to have his father in his life. 

But my 18 year old daughter would just as soon spit in her father's face. She's been wanting me to divorce him since the day we separated more than 2 years ago. She came with me to help me file the divorce papers and we went had lunch afterwards! She's been my rock, my greatest source of support. Fortunately for me and her she and I have a wonderful relationship.  I consider myself very lucky to have a daughter like her. I'm glad I've been there for her because her father has treated her like dog crap.



EleGirl said:


> He’ll give her that great car. Then he will use it against her, threatening to take it away from her if she does not do as he wants her to do. I can see that coming a mile away.


 Have you been at our house? This is what my H did to my daughter. How about giving her a car and using it as a weapon to try and control and guilt her into "loving" him and doing what he wants her to do? Oh yeah... She asked him when he gave it to her if there were strings attached (smart girl!) and he said "No". I heard him say it to her. He lied big time. 

On at least 6 different occasions he threatened to take it from her. I begged him to give it back. She never begged him and told me not to. She said "I'm not begging him for anything." I warned him that he would destroy his relationship with her, that he would never walk his daughter down the aisle or see his grandchildren. He thought he could use it to make her love and appreciate him. Didn't happen. She hates him for it. 

He told her he would leave all his money to her brother because she was an a-hole and spoiled brat! Spoiled brat? This is a straight A student who has worked since she was 15 and puts herself through college! :slap: 

He gave her no graduation present ("I already bought you a car"), no present on her 18th birthday ("I bought you a damn car!"). We started joking that he was going to give that car to her on her wedding day!

But he took it from her. Finally. And when he tried to SELL IT BACK to her she told him to go screw himself! :smthumbup:

I don't know how she feels about her father really. She just says the father she knew and loved died 3 years ago. Sad because when she was a young child he WAS a great father to her and they had a great relationship. He keeps bringing that up but perfume only smells good if you don't dump a load of sh*t on it. He completely destroyed his relationship with his daughter and it's ALL on him. Now he can reap what he's sown.


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> STBXH drove himself to the emergency room 7 days after I left! He was hospitalized with pneumonia; says he almost died. Was told to quit smoking; he hasn't...smokes as much as ever! He brings it on himself. The sooner he's gone, the sooner I will NO LONGER have to deal with him and his messes in any way, shape or form. Won't be soon enough for me.
> 
> BTW: His promised new car for her: new Cadillac! yeah, sure! I tell her 'don't get your hopes up!'


Yep..my H told my son he'd buy him a new car. Not going to happen. I told my STBXH NOT to promise our son anything. He said "I told him I'd HELP him." I told my son not to hold his breath on that and start saving his money. I also stress that his sister BOUGHT her own car in the end and that's what he will have to do. 

My husband was hospitalized several times in the past two years. For detox and because of his blood clots in his legs. He has a bad circulatory system. He was told by the doctors that if he drank it would kill him. He drank anyway! It didn't kill him. I too used to pray for him to die so I could just be rid of him. 

But now I figure he's better off alive. For one, he really is an asset when it comes to raising our son. I like that he's here for him and that makes my life easier because my son and I don't get along at times and I need a break. 

This is all based on IF he remains sober. Right now he's sobered up and is in AA and seems to be doing well but that could change. Fortunately if he starts drinking my son wants nothing to do with him. 

If he starts ponying up financial support then it will make my life easier too. So yeah, now I'd like my STBXH to remain healthy and alive but I can totally relate where you all are coming from. I used to stare up at the sky and say "Please God, release me from this monster that came up from the depths of Hell and is making me and my kids miserable".


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I try to be my daughter's rock. I don't buy her love - I'm reliable, steady and have house rules to follow. I hope some day she sees that as more loving than the permissive type her father is.


:smthumbup: That's how I am with my son. Someone has to be the parent, even if we are branded the "bad one" by the child. 

Meanwhile my son hasn't missed a day of school in the 2 months he's lived with me, has a refrigerator full of food, clean clothes and bed sheets, a nice clean house and I cook him a hot breakfast before school every day. But he preferred that his father would hand him $20 and say "buy your own food". :slap:

Yep, I'm the bad one because I watch our budget, ask him about doing his homework and insist he go to bed at a decent hour. And I get nothing but bad talk and arguments. 

Dad is the hero. Oh well. 

I gotta ask: What exactly are the symptoms of Narcissism? I often think my STBXH is one. I think my mother was too. Haven't talked to her in 10 years.


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Even if he gets her that car, maybe I won't trade mine in - I'll just get a new car park the accord in case she ever needs it because he's trying to coerce her.
> 
> My plan had been to give her my accord and buy a new car in 2 years so no real change of plan.


You should do this. Because when my STBXH did take back the car "because he couldn't afford it anymore" (it's STILL sitting parked in front of his house 2 months later!) I went out with my daughter and helped get her a new car. She's paying on it and I'm paying the insurance. I paid the insurance on the other car. 

I would've loved to have bought her a new car outright. If anyone deserves that, it's her. But if I'd had a Honda Accord I would've given it to her. That's a good car so keep it because chances are she'll either never get a car from him or he'll play mind games with the one he gives her.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

EnjoliWoman, I'm impressed with you so much. Your heart is in the right place and you're very objective considering it's your life. Your daughter is lucky to have a mother like you.

When I first started reading your story I was prepared to explain to you how to look at things differently and how you should re-examine your motives but I can't do that. Everything you said makes a lot of sense.

As a divorced dad, my kids lived with me three years each. Their mother didn't like it but if I've done anything well, it's being dad and she knew that. I'm not your ex for sure though. If I were living with my mom and trying to bribe them then I sure think she would have been more conflicted like you are.

Sorry I don't have anything helpful for you Enjoli. In your shoes I tend to think I would fight this and make him force the matter in the courts. Maybe your daughter will be resentful but one day she will understand a responsible parent does everything for their well being and to be honest, bribing her with the beamer is irresponsible. Living with his mom screams irresponsible.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Freak,

My car is 11 years old - 13 by the time she gets it - and is in excellent condition and is very well maintained. Blue Book is so little there's no sense trading it in so I might as well save it for her.  If nothing else it's a good back-up vehicle.

Thundarr,

Thanks so much. I do work very hard to be objective. Even before I married I was always looking at everything from others' perspectives to try and understand all of the angles.

I don't know that I can afford another bout in court. My parents picked up the first tab over $20K. 2009-2010 cost $40K and we pushed hard and got him to agree to pay half since he brought the motion. I make a loan payment to them every month. I'm grateful they were able to hand over that kind of cash but not again. So if she presses to live with him some time in the next four years I'll just have to hope that I gave her the foundation she needed and built a relationship with her that will stand the test of time with her Dad.

I think if she does choose to live with him, she will begin to see him in a different light. I assured her that there wasn't a thing she could do to make me not love her and that no matter what, there was always room in my home for her.

So I'll just continue to be the 'bad guy' who feeds her vegetables, limits ice cream intake, makes her pick up her room, do homework and rides her azz about school.  

I appreciate all of your support and encouragement.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Freak On a Leash said:


> I gotta ask: What exactly are the symptoms of Narcissism? I often think my STBXH is one. I think my mother was too. Haven't talked to her in 10 years.


Narcissistic personality disorder - MayoClinic.com

After reading up on his diagnosis, his constant criticism, lack of empathy, delusions of grandeur... it all made so much sense!! it was a relief - I'm NOT the "f-ing idiot" he used to call me! He exhibited ALL of the traits below except jealousy - I think he kept that one hidden because he probably viewed it as a weakness. 



Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms may include:

Believing that you're better than others (oh yes he was always smarter, stronger, better at everything - God's gift to the world)
Fantasizing about power, success and attractiveness (constant - about running for office, growing his business, becoming very rich)
Exaggerating your achievements or talents (he still bragged about his stupid physical fitness award from high school. move on.)
Expecting constant praise and admiration (always was fishing for my starry-eyed response)
Believing that you're special and acting accordingly (he was the exception to EVERY role - especially personal responsibility)
Failing to recognize other people's emotions and feelings (my emotions left him unfazed. As did others, even his mother)
Expecting others to go along with your ideas and plans (he would get so pissed if I didn't want to do something he did and would criticize me saying I wasn't spontaneous and dull, etc. - sorry - the laundry isn't going to do itself and I need clean clothes for work!)
Taking advantage of others (always - because he DESERVED it)
Expressing disdain for those you feel are inferior (everyone was inferior. he talked about everyone behind their back pointing out their failings)
Being jealous of others (not outwardly)
Believing that others are jealous of you (yes, if anyone didn't "appreciate" him it was because they were jealous)
Trouble keeping healthy relationships (brother, step siblings, friends - he had issues with ALL of them)
Setting unrealistic goals (yeah - not going to get that 50ft yacht in 2 years when you make 40K a year dude)
Being easily hurt and rejected (he lashed out when I didn't respond to him)
Having a fragile self-esteem (I see this now - not at the time because of the next one...)
Appearing as tough-minded or unemotional (yup - nothing fazed him. Super duper Alpha *******)

Although some features of narcissistic personality disorder may seem like having confidence or strong self-esteem, it's not the same. Narcissistic personality disorder crosses the border of healthy confidence and self-esteem into thinking so highly of yourself that you put yourself on a pedestal. In contrast, people who have healthy confidence and self-esteem don't value themselves more than they value others.


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

Yeah, my STBXH has some of that...not all..but some... 

Of course it also could be because he's an alcoholic d!ck. :rofl: Certainly the alcohol brought out the worst in him. But even sober he comes off as controlling, arrogant, sanctimonious and self righteous at times. Not al the time but enough so that it drove me crazy.

I don't know if he's a narcissist or not but I couldn't stand living with him so in the end, it doesn't really matter. It's all done now. He goes back to his corner and I go to mine so it's fixed as far as I'm concerned. 

I feel for anyone who has to live with someone who is "it's all about me". Been there, done that and it sucks.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Ack, just saw this thread! I am so sorry EW. What a horrible situation. 

All I can say is that this sucks, and I hope it works out in the end.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Hi ladies -- I grew up with a narcissistic mom, and your stories are really hitting me. The girls are getting to be old enough to see that their dads are disordered, but not so old that they've fully formed a strong ego. It would still be very easy at this point for coping skills they're developing to deal with their dads to lead to dysfunctional future relationships. Are any of the girls in counseling to help them deal with living with a disordered parent? A neutral place to vent so that they don't have the pressure of worrying what they say to you? Maybe a counselor who knows PDs and can teach coping skills to the girls? You know how hard it was living with them, and you were all grown women. The girls need extra tools and skills for when you're not there with them.

I ask because I know that living with her did a lot to prime me for getting involved with my STBXH. And unfortunately, we tend to marry someone like the parent with whom we had the most difficult relationship growing up.

I am watching my DS (10) to see if I start seeing any signs of him being parentified by STBXH. Luckily I think his relationship with OW is taking some of that pressure off DS. STBXH is getting his supply from her for the time being.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I have had my daughter in and out of counseling for a really long time. Unfortunately after the last legal maneuvering, that counselor had to appear in court. Although she did not/could not betray any client confidentiality laws, ex told daughter that the counselor took my side (a'hem - cause it was the RIGHT ONE) and insinuated that the counselor wasn't to be trusted. 

Obviously a anyone needs to be able to trust their counselor so she hasn't been back. Then again I just told her about his diagnosis. I'm not supposed to talk about court stuff but this is sort of a grey area and I felt she needed to know because she had blamed me for leaving him (because of what he told her) and breaking up the family so I needed to tell her about his diagnosis to sort of explain why he blames me for everything.

If there are any REAL regrets I have, it's that I saddled her with the father she has. Then again, she wouldn't be here without him. Catch .22.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> If there are any REAL regrets I have, it's that I saddled her with the father she has. Then again, she wouldn't be here without him. Catch .22.



Oh, I hear that.


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