# Initial foray



## Harken Banks

I am exhausted and starting with small steps, the biggest I can manage.

Amazingly, I am still looking for perspective. I hope that mine will be one of those rare success stories in this place.

It’s been a ride. 100 days now and never a dull moment. So, the salient points:

We have been married 12 years. We have 4 beautiful girls, ages 10 to 2. We are good parents and good people. The day-to-day has always been challenging, but I always took comfort in the assumption that no matter how many pots and pans we threw at each other (figuratively) we could always stop, hug, and recognize that we had each other and that togetherness would protect us from everything else. There has been a lot of stress. We both work full time, 60 plus hours a week. This winter I agreed to coach in a competitive skiing program my older daughters had just graduated to, which was an additional 15/hour a week commitment regular weeks and all vacation days. It also involves a commitment to make the 3 hour trip to the mountain and back at the beginning and end of every weekend and vacation (this is a paid position for an intensive program, a job, not in the category as little league or soccer, which I also coach, but on a volunteer basis –my fellow coaches are 20-somethings who recently quit competition and are working to pay for and finish college, fun but a bit odd the first coaches meetings suiting up while they are talking about the bar last night or upcoming exams and the stress in the back of my mind is some deal I am working on and when I am going to wrap negotiations or turn documents, or the construction project at the house). More time with the girls, but less with my wife, who usually prefers to be somewhere other than the mountain. On top of this, she was asked to travel to a series of work-related conferences over a 3.5 week period from the end of February until the next to last week of March. So, for that period, me at with 4 kids 10 to 2, full-time as a corporate lawyer, and part-time as a ski coach. I was feeling abandoned and like I was falling apart. Near breakdown, if that had not already occurred. During this period, we discussed the stress in our lives and marriage. In one very honest and good conversation and feeling doubt I made the tactical error of asking would she marry me again today. No. I asked and took the answer with the attitude that I understood and understood that my job now was to change the way she would answer if asked again, which of course will not happen. It was honest in the moment (possibly said somewhat for effect) and I knew we had work to do. Minutes after that conversation, she mentioned an old college boyfriend she had been in touch with on Facebook and that he too travels a lot and they had been hoping to connect but hadn’t. He was going to be in a city 2.5 hours away and she wanted to know if it would be OK for her to drive down to meet him for lunch one day. I said sure. Pretty certain this guy is not a threat, though he is single. But something bothered me and in time I recognized that it was that our marriage is suffering from the lack of attention and support we give each other and immediately after a conversation in which we acknowledge we are in a fragile and unhappy state, she announces she wants to take 8 hours of our nonexistent free-time for each other and spend it driving to meet this guy who supposedly is just an old friend and doesn’t mean anything in particular. It bothered me. One night at the end of March, March 29 to be specific, when she had left the house for a PTO event, I noticed her laptop had been left on. I know from a prior incident that she from time to time monitors my computer, so I thought maybe I should look. I wasn’t immediately sure what I discovered, but it was so off the charts uncharacteristic and beyond anything I had ever imagined. 

Re: the travelling old boyfriend, fellow business traveler, nothing remarkable. Some Facebook correspondence consistent with what she had told me, but some gratuitous disclosure of some of our struggles. No big deal. But another contact I did not recognize. With this one countless pages of flirty banter, meaning of life, and relationship talk. All in the period from March 1, the day she returned from her first trip, to March 12, the day there was an incident where she’d left the computer on the bed as I came up to go to sleep and I noticed this guy’s picture, but didn’t think a lot of it. She came out of the bathroom quickly and looking a little stressed or irritated. But nothing more. 

The correspondence starts at 1:30 am the last night of the trip with some brief first Facebook contact and it’s evident now there was contact in another forum happening at the same time. Then picks up the next day when she is back home and goes all day starting with allusions to the previous night of fun and games at a casino night social event and my wife talking about the evening and admitting that she hasn’t had so much fun as an adult in a long time, loves the kids, but rarely gets out or has fun with me. From there it goes to the questionable subject matter of their conversations that night, including his love life (and some inappropriate details) as a newly divorced 50 year old guy living again as a bachelor in search of love. This stuff continues around the clock until she leaves for her next trip 4 days later. She is following his life closely enough to know and comment on the bars and golf courses he is at before he tells her. Things between us remain tense. The first night away, she asks if where he, he asks “why?” and she says because she wanted to call and didn’t know if that would be OK. He says “Call.”. That is the start of daily, hours long conversations, IMs, and texts in addition to Facebook, subject matter includes the problems in our marriage, his love life and divorce, relationship coaching, cross fit, the Red Sox, what’s for lunch and so on, some of it happening while I am sleeping next to her. It’s too much for me to process and I begin shutting down the computer, no effort to hide my tracks. The last screen, and the zinger, is his photo, which she has downloaded. 

She arrives home, discovers that I have been on her computer, wants to talk and I say “Not now”, leave, and spend the night at a bar with a friend who is kind enough to drive me home. I fall into bed, I’m pretty upset and ask what the hell she was doing, she says he is just a nice guy and they are just having conversations. The next day I am a wreck and in disbelief. I can’t function and follow her around the house like a puppy dog trying to get her to stop and talk, to figure out whether we’re going to stay married and so on. That’s the pattern for the next several weeks. I go out with my two best friends and get drunk and laugh at the situation or get together with them for lunch or coffee Monday morning quarterback my latest flailings. I try to make the case to my wife that this relationship is not good for the marriage, she gets angry and evasive. When I want to talk she gets very angry, to the point quaking and then screaming that I am smothering and making her turn away further and declaring that if she had somewhere to go she would leave. I alternate between saying “Go!” and saying “What are you talking about, this is us?!” Needless to say, I wasn’t playing it well. Pretty early on, at lunch with two best friends, they both say, “Dude, we’ve talked about, we talked about it with our wives, we’ve talked about with each other. You’ve got to cut this off [complete with figure drawn across neck gesture].” I say, no guys, that would work for you. You are take charge. That is not me. And at this point she is in the place of flatly telling me I am being ridiculous. I’ll need time and better footing. The next morning something changes that.


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## keko

Seems like it is emotional affair at the least if it hasn't been physical in one of her trips.

If you want to save your marriage you need to put a stop to this hard and now. 

In the mean time read the books "no more mr nice guy" and "married men sex life primer".


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## Harken Banks

I’m stewing in this stuff. Obsessed with her apparent obsession. I couldn’t sleep. Went for a trail run in the dark at 4 am. Came home no less agitated. Picked up her phone, which was on the night stand next to her. Text from this random guy: “He needs to find the dignity and smarts to figure this out for himself and stop projecting hate/blame/ [can’t remember what else] onto me.” She is half awake and looks at me to say what are you doing? With the bite of disgust and ire. I’m incensed by what I have read. “This guy just insulted your husband in at least 4 ways that come to mind immediately. He has insulted my intelligence, my character, my dignity, my judgment, my perception. I do not have a single friend who would insult you. I would not have a friend who would insult you. I would immediately lose respect for anyone who would insult you to me and they would no longer be my friend. You cannot have a friend like this and be married to me.” Didn’t go well from there. I’m sure many of you know what came next.


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## keko

Harken Banks said:


> Text from this random guy: “He needs to find the dignity and smarts to figure this out for himself and stop projecting hate/blame/ [can’t remember what else] onto me.”


If your wife is getting texts in the middle of the night from random guys, Im sure you know how serious this has gotten right?


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## Mario Kempes

keko said:


> If your wife is getting texts in the middle of the night from random guys, Im sure you know how serious this has gotten right?


I think Harken is gonna tell us all the story in installments, Keko.........


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## keko

Mario Kempes said:


> I think Harken is gonna tell us all the story in installments, Keko.........


DUH!! 


Why can't people write these out beforehand, then post them all at once.


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## Harken Banks

"You can't tell me what to do!" complete with exorcist head spin and venom.


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## Harken Banks

Guys, I wish I could. There is so much, and I am so tired.


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## Mario Kempes

Harken Banks said:


> Guys, I wish I could. There is so much, and I am so tired.


Take your time. I'm looking forward to hearing it all, given the optimistic note you sounded at the start of your first post.


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## Harken Banks

I suppose we all start from a place where we assume our own circumstance is different. I still believe we will hold this together.


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## Mario Kempes

Harken Banks said:


> I suppose we all start from a place where we assume our own circumstance is different. I still believe we will hold this together.


I hope so.


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## Harken Banks

Mario, thanks bud. Keko, I doubt the physical. Old saw, I know. Thanks for being frank and honest. That's why I am here.


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## MattMatt

Keep on posting, Harken.

Sadly your tale is familiar to many here. You'll get the: "Hey! You too, huh?"

By the way, random guy had read your wife well. He gave her the answer he realised she wanted. 

This is not good. But it is not his fault. Is it? He only lets his bait float. Not his fault if a fishy bites...


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## Harken Banks

Guy's a sh+tburger. He owes me nothing and that is not where the problem is, but I recognize him for what he is.


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## MattMatt

Harken Banks said:


> Guy's a sh+tburger. He owes me nothing and that is not where the problem is, but I recognize him for what he is.


A shark who scented blood.


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## Harken Banks

Thanks for that. A small satori.


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## cantthinkstraight

New rule: No more cell phones in the bedroom.


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## KanDo

Harken,

I am so sorry you are here. There is nothing like being betrayed by the one you love. Been there, done that. I have just three things to tell you:
1) Man Up!
2) Man Up!
3) Man Up!

Oh, and Man Up!. This behavior is unacceptable , so stop accepting it. You need to set the boundaries. Continue to work on yourself, exercise, do your thing. Detach from her (read up on the "180"). You need to make the consequences of her actions real. You're a lawyer. Lay a petition for the dissolution of marriage on her. She sees you as wimpy and unattractive. You're acting like a doormat and accepting this crap.

If you want to save your marriage, you need to be willing to lose it. The Man Up threads should be your bible. If you want to feel better about your situation, you can read my story. I at least think you have a chance.


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## costa200

> You’ve got to cut this off [complete with figure drawn across neck gesture].” I say, no guys, that would work for you. You are take charge. That is not me.



Oh man!... I can see were this is going... Just vent it out Harken. Lots of people to listen to you here.


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## jnj express

Hey HB---if a potential client, brought this story in to you for a consult, on INTENTIONAL INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL DISTRESS, what would you advise them---loop it back to me---cuz what you are reeling off, has a lot of the elements of the above.

Above is what you do to her lover---what you do to her, is to tell her either quit, or prepare to defend a D. action---its just that simple------you have very few weapons to fight with, and D/THREAT OF D. IS THE MAJOR WEAPON

By the way---there is no privacy in Mge---so don't be guilty about snooping.


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## bandit.45

Harken, when you have rested and have your head part way together, read and start doing the 180. 

The link is right below my post here.


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## Harken Banks

Thanks all. Rest is in order. Kandoo, Bandit, thank you for sharing your histories. I had already some familiarity. I'm not naive, just naive.


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## bandit.45

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks all. Rest is in order. Kandoo, Bandit, thank you for sharing your histories. I had already some familiarity. I'm not naive, just naive.


Keep talking to us. We can talk you through this!


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## Harken Banks

Can't think straight, I've read yours too and always take inspiration from your avatar. When you cannot revel in the sensible, you can revel in the irreverent.


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## bandit.45

Hey you're good with words. You'll fit in nicely!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Harken Banks

F*ck if this is my new home.


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## KanDo

Hang in there. There will be ups and downs


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## bandit.45

Harken Banks said:


> F*ck if this is my new home.


Welcome to the club no one wants to join!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Time to get tough with your wife Harken Banks.....

Are you up for it?????


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## Harken Banks

We'll see. So far I have been mostly a basket case and incredibly inconsistent. Erratic, even. My wife on the other hand has been quite consistent in her ability to side-step, minimize, and deny. It’s kind of amusing. The more I fall apart, the more she seems to gather strength. You can almost see the life force drawing from me into her. At first there was a lot of yelling. I would want to stop her and say “Hey, this is us. We have to fix this.” And I would want to hold her. She would get furious, turn away, and turn me away. And say that I was being ridiculous about her relationship with this guy and that it was all we talked about. In my view, we never talked about the substance, we just got into arguments that seemed to spring from her anger that I would not let it go. That they were just “having conversations.” And “it felt good! It felt good to have someone to talk to! Who would listen!” The data points available to me are troubling. She researched and bought him a "divorce gift," she has Googled the driving directions or at least the distance to his house (1,547 miles). According to the few texts and IM trails I have seen (those that happened not to have been deleted before I found them -this is back when I was consummed with discovery) he "puts spark in [her] life" and texts or IMs in the middle of the day to say
OM: "Thanks"
WW: "For what? For the [nonessential, work-related assistance she had gratuitously provided]?
OM: "For being you?" 
WW: "Trying to make me smile today? It worked! 
OM: (Y)
And so. I have never seen so many emoticons, ones I never cared to know existed.

In the days after I first discovered the relationship and my wife was in the place of “I don’t know how I feel, but I need space,” I was complete wreck and in desperate need of immediate assistance. I had started seeing a marriage counselor about a year before and had gone to her then a total of 3 times over that year. Kind of dipping my toes in the water. My wife was aware from the start, not because I told her (I did not, because I did not want her to feel that I meant to be sending a message), but because MC’s office had returned a call to the home phone to confirm the first meeting, maybe last March or April. She asked about it and I told her I felt I needed perspective, to find some way forward, perspective in how to address our marriage my experience of it. I also told her that MC had said that we really should be in MC together, as a couple, and that she was welcome and invited, but that it was her call to decide what she wanted and I was not going to push or pull her into it. Our marriage had not been good for a long time. I felt that I had been experiencing a relentless barrage of anger, resentment, and contempt. Just constant. When it wasn’t outright rage, it seemed to retreat to a simmering, latent hostility. No warmth or companionship. I was having a hard time making sense of it or even functioning at times. After years of that and the hopelessness of having no plan, it occurred to me, ‘hey, maybe I can and should get some help with this.’ And from the moment I picked up the phone it felt good to have a plan. I was leaving the door open to couples counseling, so careful not to go so often as to poison the process -and also unsure of what I was looking for and more than a little concerned about where I might open my eyes to find myself. My wife asked some about the process. I gave her the MC’s number and card and she called once to schedule but seemed to run into conflicts and never follow up. I also offered that if she wanted to see another MC, that would be fine and I would go to whoever she chose as long as they were good.

Anyway, return to the first week of April 2012. I’m a wreck. I call my MC. No return. I text that I have an emergency and that my marriage is in serious trouble. She calls back to let me know she is leaving for vacation at the end of the week and booked until departure. She offers the contact info of a colleague. I’m not sure. At lunch with the 2 best friends, one says ‘we’re here for you, but we’re amateurs. You need a pro.’ And he and his wife have a friend through their kids school who is really cool and absolutely the guy to call.

It’s a Thursday morning (I have just heard from my MC that she can’t fit me in) and I call the guy, Bob, and because I am so pathetic on the phone he agrees to see me that day. I went, unloaded, and felt better. He’s a very calming guy. Wife can see that I am not doing well. But inexplicably can’t seem to understand why or be bothered to return my calls, emails, texts, whatever. But apparently there is enough to be concerned about that she asks about the meeting, and I am grateful. I don’t have much to report –I basically spent the whole time downloading the history. She asks if I’ll go back. I say ‘Maybe, I don’t know, but if the marriage is to be the patient, we have to do this on a joint basis.’ She’s game and we’re off to weekly therapy with Bob. Does not go well. Wife repeatedly states during the process that she feels more apart from me than ever. I think she is being honest, at least in the moment. From D-day forward, we are having some good and interesting sex, maybe a couple times a week. And some moments of heartfelt tenderness. But the trend seems to be away from together. I fired Bob after about 8 sessions. I’ll give you the upshot of his advice:

‘Dude, you have your reality, she has hers. Yours isn’t absolute or wrong, neither is hers. I’d be upset if I were you, too. You’re very convincing. But she says there’s nothing going on. What are you going to do? You have got to let this go. If you cannot let this go, you will drive into a “real affair.” 

You are convinced she is having an emotional affair. She says she isn’t. I’m playing it down the middle, so I’m agnostic. But the reality is most people have emotional affairs. Let it go or you will drive her nuts and destroy the marriage.’

He is a perceptive guy and more emotionally evolved than me. And I told I thought so. And that I would try to work through the process to become more emotionally evolved and less primal, though I did not know that I could get all the way there where I could let it all go and be at ease with the incredible instability he seemed to want me to grow to embrace.

Then I thought, you know what, this guy is helping a bad situation get worse and I told my wife I wasn't going back to him, not for marriage counseling anyway.


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## bandit.45

Your wife is in control. Take her control away by detaching from her. You are making the mistake of chasing her. The more you chase her the weaker you look to her. 

Start doing the 180. There are links to it on this website, just do a search. Also, go to No More Mr. Nice Guy website and download the book. It along with the 180 will provide you with the skills to rise above your wife's manipulation and emotionally prepare you for a life without her. 

Right now you are spinning your wheels. Stop it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mahike

Take a deep breath this is tough stuff to deal with. I know you are shaking inside and I understand where your mind goes.

Your wife is defensive. That is a really big red flag to me. She is getting a rush from this guy. He is making her feel up about being needed.

At this point we are guessing at your wifes needs motivation but lets be honest we are guys we all know what his motivation is right.


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## mahike

And Bandit is right on!


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## Gabriel

Yeah, that guy telling you to let it go is dead wrong. 

Here's the thing though, you aren't really getting anywhere with your W. Someone, maybe Bandit, suggested the 180. I think this is exactly what you should do. It will knock your wife silly. She'll wonder what the heck happened, why you are suddenly acting completely different, and STRONG. 

The point of the 180 is healthy detachment from your wife and her budding affair. It also typically makes the other person wonder what is going on. So they start chasing you.

The 180 makes you a stronger man, to yourself and to those observing you. It often makes you more attractive. See, you are in a game of push and pull. By following her around, harrassing her, you are pushing and she is pulling away. The 180 will make you pull, and when you do that, you may begin to pull your W toward you. 

Reading through your story, my advice to you would be to implement the 180 first. Then watch your wife's reaction. If she starts to ask you questions or warms up to you, then you give her some hard boundary demands in your marriage. See, you can't demand those yet because you are not in a good bargaining position. You are chasing, desperate. You have to tip the scales first. Then demand your boundaries. At that point you tell her, "Wife, there is no room for this man in our marriage. You'll have to stop this with him or I am going to call an attorney to discuss my options."

This is my opinion - others may disagree - just how I see it.


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## bandit.45

I agree. Can someone post those links for him? I cannot via my phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

The 180

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Back on my laptop now. The link to the 180 is right below my post here.


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## Harken Banks

Noted and appreciated, and I am not blowing it off or discounting it, but there are also some positives. In the weeks before discovery, she had made some pretty big efforts to initiate intimacy. She is beautiful, but has also always had some relationship insecurity and a fear that I will leave her for someone more attractive and less angry at me. She primarily pursued the relationship and I think she was surprised she caught me. Some close friends have observed that a common theme and problem in my relationships has been that I’ve never gone out with anyone who did not come after me. Hard. And it’s worked out well for me. I had an exceptional and storied run before marriage. Since we’ve been married, there have been some inappropriate and sometimes embarrassing approaches that have been understandably upsetting, but she also knows that it’s not me (though I could at times be quicker to tamp them down) and that I have a loyalty streak a mile wide. 

Anyway, I was stunned to discover she was still carrying on with this guy 3 or 4 weeks into therapy. I blew up. Now, after some false starts, I think she is n/c. I’ve lost the curiosity to ask or do diligence. At this point I think she understands I will not stick around if this continues and will not go through anything like it again. It’s knocked the stuffing out of me and I am just not constitutionally equipped for another round. The question now seems to be whether we survive the fallout and aftermath. 4 beautiful little girls 10, 8, 5, and 2, so its high stakes, high wire without a net. Breaks my heart to think of their beautiful world falling apart. 

Since the initial craziness, my wife has several times re-affirmed her desire to commit to me and to us. It just does not yet seem to be unconditional. We are 6 months into a major house renovation/addition and she can do a walk through with friends or family and talk about what is going to happen in each room. It’s stunning to me. She could do that at the height of the insanity. And at the same time, we both have a psychological block on focusing on and making the daily and myriad decisions needed to move the project forward. Contractors are growing impatient.

So, I guess that is what this is about. Can we put Humpty Dumpty together. And is there a point in trying if we can’t seem to look honestly at what made him fall.


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## mahike

You need to check up on her. Women are invested to these relationships with emotion. She may backslide. I would follow up on the computer and phone every few weeks moving forward.


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## Harken Banks

Can't do it, Mahike. I won't live that way.


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## bandit.45

Harken Banks said:


> Noted and appreciated, and I am not blowing it off or discounting it, but there are also some positives. In the weeks before discovery, she had made some pretty big efforts to initiate intimacy. She is beautiful, but has also always had some relationship insecurity and a fear that I will leave her for someone more attractive and less angry at me. *She primarily pursued the relationship *and I think she was surprised she caught me.
> 
> *Bingo! She is a chaser. She does not like being chased, which is what you are doing! *
> 
> *Some close friends have observed that a common theme and problem in my relationships has been that I’ve never gone out with anyone who did not come after me. Hard. And it’s worked out well for me. I had an exceptional and storied run before marriage. * Since we’ve been married, there have been some inappropriate and sometimes embarrassing approaches that have been understandably upsetting, but she also knows that it’s not me (though I could at times be quicker to tamp them down) and that I have a loyalty streak a mile wide.
> 
> *She is attracted to you only so long as she thinks some other woman or women are after you. This fits her pattern as a chaser. Once she has you, and is comfortable she has you under her thumb, she gets bored and looks for someone else to catch. See the pattern? *
> 
> Anyway, I was stunned to discover she was still carrying on with this guy 3 or 4 weeks into therapy. I blew up. Now, after some false starts, I think she is n/c. I’ve lost the curiosity to ask or do diligence. At this point I think she understands I will not stick around if this continues and will not go through anything like it again. It’s knocked the stuffing out of me and I am just not constitutionally equipped for another round. The question now seems to be whether we survive the fallout and aftermath. 4 beautiful little girls 10, 8, 5, and 2, so its high stakes, high wire without a net. Breaks my heart to think of their beautiful world falling apart.
> 
> *Since the initial craziness, my wife has several times re-affirmed her desire to commit to me and to us. It just does not yet seem to be unconditional. * We are 6 months into a major house renovation/addition and she can do a walk through with friends or family and talk about what is going to happen in each room. It’s stunning to me. She could do that at the height of the insanity. And at the same time, we both have a psychological block on focusing on and making the daily and myriad decisions needed to move the project forward. Contractors are growing impatient.
> 
> *Pay attention to her actions, not her words. Words mean nothing if they are not supported by actions. *
> 
> So, I guess that is what this is about. Can *we* put Humpty Dumpty together. And is there a point in trying if we can’t seem to look honestly at what made him fall.
> 
> *Your wife is the one who pushed Humpty of the wall by doing the humpty with another man. It's her job to paste this marriage back together. If she won't do it, what are you wasting your time for? *


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## lordmayhem

Harken Banks said:


> Anyway, I was stunned to discover she was still carrying on with this guy 3 or 4 weeks into therapy. I blew up. Now, after some false starts, I think she is n/c. I’ve lost the curiosity to ask or do diligence. At this point I think she understands I will not stick around if this continues and will not go through anything like it again.


This is the part that gets me all the time. Guys like you who claim not to have the strength or interest to monitor and ensure NC, but tell your WW that you will leave if she continues. This simply isn't logical.

How you would even know if she continues or takes the affair underground if you aren't monitoring?



Harken Banks said:


> It’s knocked the stuffing out of me and I am just not constitutionally equipped for another round. The question now seems to be whether we survive the fallout and aftermath. 4 beautiful little girls 10, 8, 5, and 2, so its high stakes, high wire without a net. Breaks my heart to think of their beautiful world falling apart.


You say the stakes are high with 4 young daughters, but you don't have the strength to go on? Look, it's time that you found that strength. That's what the 180 is for. Its to help you emotionally detach from your WW so that you will gain the strength to move on, with or without her.


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## mahike

Harken Banks said:


> Can't do it, Mahike. I won't live that way.


While I understand that sentiment it is not real smart. Almost everyone that tries to R with their wife has sometype of backslide. In your case they work togther at some level it will be real easy to happen.

She violated your trust she needs to re earn it. Best of Luck


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## lordmayhem

Harken Banks said:


> Can't do it, Mahike. I won't live that way.


Why? Too proud? Is it beneath you? It's part of being transparent and rebuilding trust. The trust that she destroyed.


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## Harken Banks

I have no principled disagreement with any of the 3 preceding comments. And I have been all over the place. Several times to the same places, farther, and back in the same day. I know enough to know that no matter how certain I may be of how I feel or where I am, I will feel differently and be in a different place before I know I have left. Pretty sure I am not monitoring the computer or phone or anything else like that. To me, that looks like eternal misery. I am not going there.


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## Harken Banks

Lord, I shed all dignity and pride at the outset of this process. I have been prostrate and abject. Not because I wanted to. Not because I didn't know it wasn't exactly the opposite of what I should do. But because I learned that the more I was honest, the more I was comfortable.


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## The Middleman

mahike said:


> You need to check up on her. Women are invested to these relationships with emotion. She may backslide. I would follow up on the computer and phone every few weeks moving forward.
> 
> 
> Harken Banks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't do it, Mahike. I won't live that way.
Click to expand...

HB: I hate to say this, but I think you are doing everything wrong. If you can't follow Mahike's good advice, I think you are doomed (I hate to say). It seems clear to me that she knows she has the upper hand with you in this matter and she is going to take advantage of it. She is not going to give up this guy, take that to the bank. If you don't take a strong approach and put an end to her affair and stop making it easy for her then this will develop into a PA in short order (who said that an EA becomes a PA in 2 to 3 weeks after an emotional connection is established). Initially I was feeling your pain, but the more I read, the less sorry I feel. You need to step up for yourself.


----------



## lordmayhem

Harken Banks said:


> I have no principled disagreement with any of the 3 preceding comments. And I have been all over the place. Several times to the same places, farther, and back in the same day. I know enough to know that no matter how certain am may be of how I feel or where I am, I will feel differently and be in a different place before I know I have left. Pretty sure I am not monitoring the computer or phone or anything else like that. To me, that looks like eternal misery. I am not going there.


I see, you'd rather bury your head in the sand and hope it goes away. Are you familiar with the concept of fishing as it relates to infidelity? Like my fWW, your WW is in a long distance EA with an OM who was an old flame she reconnected with through facebook. 

This is a summation of how the emotional affair can progress.



F-102 said:


> It may have gone something like this:
> 
> They first start catching up, and it's all "How you been doing? What have you been up to?"
> 
> Then it would have morphed into talk about:
> 
> What they've been doing since they parted
> Their significant others since they parted
> Their families
> Their favorite music, movies, etc.
> Their spouses
> You
> Your job
> How your job keeps you away
> How lonely she gets when you're away
> How she looks forward to their conversations all the time now
> How she loves talking to him
> How she gets "bored" talking to you
> How you don't always listen
> How you're not "perfect"
> How you can be so insensitive sometimes
> How she wonders if she would have stayed with him
> How he understands her
> How he knows how to make her feel good
> How you fail at this
> How you are such an a**hole
> How she feels young again
> How she hasn't felt this happy with you in so long
> How he's a better man than you'll ever be
> How she wants to see him again
> How they can meet under the radar
> How she's thought of leaving you
> How she ever could have fallen for a jerk like you
> How he's her soul mate
> How she made a big mistake leaving him
> How she made an even bigger mistake marrying you
> How they were meant to be together...
> 
> ...get the picture?


Now fishing is when either of the Affair Partners (APs) cast out a lure in the hopes of reeling the AP back in and reconnecting. This can be simple as a text, PM, or email that says "hello", "how are you doing", "are you okay", "missed you", etc, etc, etc. Then NC is broken and the affair is back on.

Now, what you fail to understand is what monitoring does for you. What it does is help rebuild trust. You claim that your wife asserts that she is committed to you, right? Are you just going to take her word for it, or are you going to verify it? What the monitoring does is either it confirms that what your WW is telling you is the truth and the affair is over, or it tells you that she's lying and has broken NC. 

Now when you continue to monitor and you continually find nothing, and her actions are remorseful and she's doing the heavy lifting, you eventually get tired of checking on her because you start to feel safe, you start to trust when you see for yourself that she truly is out of the affair. You begin to check on her less and less, even eventually forgetting the last time you checked on her was. 

To you, a newly betrayed, it seems that it will be eternal and last forever....NOT if your WW is truly committed to the marriage as she says she is. 

Or you can do what you've been doing...nothing. Taking her word for it, but not knowing for certain if she's still talking to him. That will eat you up. The thought will continue to nag at you. So good luck with that.


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## Harken Banks

Middleman, I have been doing everything wrong from the start. 2 left feet and a bullseye on my chest. I know. Can't get out of my own way. But I'm inclined to go against some of the conventional wisdom. Stay tuned. If only for entertainment value. Oh, and f*ck you for 2nd to last sentence. I mean that in the endearing way you would say it speaking over a beer to a friend.


----------



## lordmayhem




----------



## Harken Banks

Thanks Lord. I am familiar and consistenty disappointed. I am nothing if not well read.


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## Harken Banks

For clarity, disappointed that my experience has been exclusively right column. Grateful for the concern and support.


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## lordmayhem

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks Lord. I am familiar and eternally disappointed. I am nothing if not well read.


Well, you can read the other horror stories here in this forum. And if you feel you can handle it, then take a look at the dark side. A word of caution: it can cause you to trigger.

Affair Discussion Forum • View topic - Close call...

Affair Discussion Forum • View topic - CYA (Covering Your Ass) Checklist


----------



## The Middleman

Harken Banks said:


> Oh, and f*ck you for 2nd to last sentence. I mean that in the endearing way you would say it speaking over a beer to a friend.


Yeah ... well, you wouldn't be the first guy to tell me that.

No man wants to see another guy go through what your going through and more importantly, behave the way you are behaving. Unfortunately your not close enough to grab you by the solders, shake you and then slap you across the face!

"You can act like a man! What's the matter with you? "










Dude: IMO, a wife respects the man that says "you aren't going to see (communicate with) this guy .. and if you insist on doing it ... I'm not going to make it easy or pleasant for you ... and then I'm going to through you out." Bad behavior has to have consequences and I don't see any consequences. Your a lawyer! I'm sure you know how to make someone's life difficult.

BTW: the advice that marriage councilor gave you was billsh1t.


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## Harken Banks

Mahike, she knows that she does not have my trust. Reciprocal unquestioned trust had been implicit for 13 years, so this is not a small matter. She knows that I cannot lie next to her at night and rest, let alone sleep. We have not slept in the same bed since a 4-day getaway 2 weeks ago.


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## Gabriel

Harken Banks said:


> Mahike, she knows that she does not have my trust. Reciprocal unquestioned trust had been implicit for 13 years, so this is not a small matter. She knows that I cannot lie next to her at night and rest, let alone sleep. We have not slept in the same bed since a 4-day getaway 2 weeks ago.


Wow - so what is she doing about it? Nothing? Are you the one leaving the marital bed or is she?


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## Harken Banks

Me. I am at our house, where the renovation is taking place. I had the contractors set up a temporary kitchen with all the necessary. She'd rather I slept with her at the temporary place, but I can't. I can lie down there, and listen to her breathe all night, but I can't sleep or rest. I haven't been able to since March 29.


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## Gabriel

Harken Banks said:


> Me. I am at our house, where the renovation is taking place. I had the contractors set up a temporary kitchen with all the necessary. She'd rather I slept with her at the temporary place, but I can't. I can lie down there, and listen to her breathe all night, but I can't sleep or rest. I haven't been able to since March 29.


Okay, she wants you in the bed but you have told her you can't, and it's because of what has happened with this OM, right?

Has she tried to convince you or placate your worries?


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## Harken Banks

She has said I want you and only you. On maybe a couple of occassions she has held onto me with what I took as the terrifying recognition of the distance that she would now have to help me bridge. Glimpses. But mostly just the same old.


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## lordmayhem

Harken Banks said:


> She has said I want you and only you. On maybe a couple of occassions she has held onto me with what I took as the terrifying recognition of the distance that she would now have to help me bridge. Glimpses. But mostly just the same old.


She's a good actress. Just ask most of the BSs here in the forum how great their spouse was at acting and saying the right things. 

Actions, not words.


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## Harken Banks

I take those as rare moments of honesty, and the rest as acting or reacting. I'm a naif. I'll own it. But I also have a fundamental faith in us. Suppose I would be alone in a place like this.


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## bandit.45

Harken Banks said:


> She has said I want you and only you. On maybe a couple of occassions she has held onto me with what I took as the terrifying recognition of the distance that she would now have to help me bridge. Glimpses. But mostly just the same old.


When she writes the no contact letter to the OM, lets you read and edit it to your liking, and tells him it was wrong to desparage you in front of him, then allow you to hit the send button, then maybe you two can begin travelling down the road of reconcilliation.


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## bandit.45

Harken Banks said:


> I take those as rare moments of honesty, and the rest as acting or reacting. I'm a naif. I'll own it. But I also have a fundamental faith in us. Suppose I would be alone in a place like this.


Nice to know that. But what you have is not a marriage. You can see that can you not?


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## Harken Banks

Spot on, Bandit. I'll tell that story next. Did not go quite that way. But maybe not so wrong that it needs revisiting.


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## Harken Banks

I would not be here otherwise.


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## Gabriel

Harken Banks said:


> Spot on, Bandit. I'll tell that story next. Did not go quite that way. But maybe not so wrong that it needs revisiting.


I know you are pressed for time and are exhausted, but the more you tell us up front, the better advice we can give. If there are more pertinent details, it would be great to take those into consideration.

And regarding the checking up on her. I was exactly you. Still am on some levels. I check email/facebook/phone records when I can, but never went down the keylogger/VAR route. But you can't just trust what she says at this point and assume she's stopped conversing with this guy. You need to have some monitoring in place, or else you could be infinitely trapped in a sham of a marriage.


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## Harken Banks

I have no secrets. I'll share more than I should. I've been through the telling and re-telling so many times that I don't know anymore who knows what and I expect the check out girl at the grocery store to know everything I've been through. And sometimes I think she can read it all through my eyes even without the the telling. Pretty sure I am done with monitoring. I've been there. It's no fun. I don't want to live that way.


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## bandit.45

Harken Banks said:


> I don't want to live that way.


Well then, who better to file for divorce than a lawyer?


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## Harken Banks

Against the considered, considerable, and deeply appreciated advice of this panel, I will trust my wife. She's a good person. This one may surprise you.


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## Harken Banks

For what it is worth and in the interest of disclosure, 2 best friends see it as long odds. Good, long-time friends to both of us. I'll tell them, "No, we're going to find a way to keep this together; there is no alternative" and they say "I hope so bud, but I don't see how it works out." Depressing to hear, but doesn't change my outlook.


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## bandit.45

Its your life friend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## snap

Harken Banks said:


> Against the considered, considerable, and deeply appreciated advice of this panel, I will trust my wife.


This worked great for you so far..


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## Gabriel

Harken Banks said:


> Against the considered, considerable, and deeply appreciated advice of this panel, I will trust my wife. She's a good person. This one may surprise you.


I guess you don't need our advice then. Good luck going forward.


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## Harken Banks

I have only been here since yesterday. Yes, hte 180 was what I needed 3 months ago. I have been thinking there ought to be an emergency intervention program for those who discover their spouse in an affair. Not this 'well, I'm busy this week, how is next Thursday at 4' ****. Sometimes that is not the speed of life. A full on, intensive let's dust you off and stand you up program for the critical first 2 weeks. I have since regained some balance and perspective. I know that I have no interest in worrying about my wife's extracurriculars. Either we have to fix it to our mutual satisfaction or recognize that we have not been able to. It was demeaning and demoralizing to worry about who is texting, emailing, or facebooking her. I've exhausted my capacity for that.


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## Harken Banks

No. I want your advice. Even when I push back. It's a f*cking lonely process. I want to talk to whoever will listen and listen to whoever will talk. But I am not going to further monitor my wife's communications. I expect I will pick up if there is continued or repeated infidelity.


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## keko

Advice? 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50319-doc-cool.html


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## bandit.45

Good idea Keko. Yeah go to the Doc Cool website and see how cheaters like your wife think. 

It's an eye opener.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

Harken Banks said:


> No. I want your advice. Even when I push back. It's a f*cking lonely process. I want to talk to whoever will listen and listen to whoever will talk. But I am not going to further monitor my wife's communications. I expect I will pick up if there is continued or repeated infidelity.


Its pretty common around here. A newly BS like yourself who finds the advice here distasteful, even though it comes from the hard earned experience of everyone here who has been through it, starts a thread, then disappears. Only to reappear months later to report things have gotten worse. With that, I leave to you read LostCPA's thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/31959-false-recovery.html

Good luck. There are plenty of other newly betrayed people coming on here everyday, some are even willing to listen. Its better to help those who can be helped. Again, good luck in your situation.


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## Harken Banks

Hah hah! It's like Hades. Like these people are walking around upside down on the other side.


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## Harken Banks

Guys, I take your point. And will keep an open mind. I get it, we're in detente - trust but verify. But looking at her computer and phone was so distasteful and degrading -I'll need another approach. And if I thought it would be resolved that the girls would stay with me, quickly, cleanly and without scorched earth, my posture might be different. I love my wife and family. Someone here must understand that.


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## KanDo

Harken,
I have been on this site too long. Every story is the same. "My wife is different" "we are working things out" "I can't live my life checking up on her". If I had a nickle for every time I've read that story...

Please read my tale, or at least the first few pages. Read how my wife, supposedly working on our marriage went to a girlfriends birthday party in Vegas which was just a cover to bang the other man. Read how during no contact, she was secretly texting him through a game on her phone! And my W wasn't even that creative! Affairs unfold like they are taken from a single script. It is uncanny how alike the stories are.

Even if your wife isn't in contact and doesn't re-connect, she has experienced no consequences. There has been no demonstration of resolve on your part to establish and enforce boundaries. All you have done is reconfirm her opinion of you as weak, needy, and of little romantic value. How do you expect her to respect you when you don't even respect yourself!

I had hopes for you in the beginning of your story. I am sorry to say my hope for you has dissipated. To you this is a virgin trail through the wilderness. To us it is a superhighway packed with cars racing by and you are but one lone driver. Unfortunately you just passed your exit because you were in the wrong lane.

Good luck my friend. The membership of "the club no one wants to join" will be here watching your car crash into the embankment and will try and help pull you from the wreckage when it does.


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## Harken Banks

Kando, thank you. That is exactly why I am here. I don't think we are headed for crash and burn. Even if so, I'll walk away from the flames. It will be entertaining. Maybe heartwarming. Stick around.


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## Harken Banks

And I am sorry. I can't imagine what you have been through. I can't imagine or understand any of it. Thanks for being here.


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## KanDo

Thanks for the sympathy; but, it isn't needed. I am in a wonderful spot right now. I am enjoying my current relationship and life. I only bring up the events of my story to underline that the lies in emotional and physical affairs are ubiquitous. This EA of your wife's and her unwillingness to recognize it as such is like a crack in the plaster around a door frame. It is a symptom of a much larger problem. Slapping a little Spackle on it isn't going to work. Yes, it will look pretty for a while; but, the problem will return and other undiscovered damage beneath the surface may continue.


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## Harken Banks

Understood. I am not going to monitor her computer or anything else. I've done that. It was miserable. And at this point, I don't see the point or what is to be gained. I can't see going back to that place.


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## keko

Harken Banks said:


> Understood. I am not going to monitor her computer or anything else. I've done that. It was miserable. And at this point, I don't see the point or what is to be gained. I can't see going back to that place.


So what is your plan of action? What are you tring to accomplish? What is your ultimate goal?


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## Harken Banks

Regain my balance. Save my marriage if that can be done. Protect and nurture my children.


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## keko

Harken Banks said:


> Regain my balance.


Have you laid out what you need to do to accomplish this? Set a time limit?


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## Harken Banks

Understanding that this about the second point only: No. I expect I will know when I have no more.


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## Zanna

One thing is for sure about EA's or PA's is that you can't save your marriage with an OM in the picture.

Listen to these guys. They know of which they speak.

I understand that finding out the truth about your life and your wife could be degrading or distasteful. However, spending months or years living an unauthentic life with a person who sneaks around your back and betrays you is truly degrading and distasteful, in my opinion. And such a waste of precious time. Life is too short to live a lie.

Best of luck.


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## Harken Banks

Thanks Zanna. I trust she is done with this. I recognize she may not be and that if she is not there is no way forward.


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## Zanna

Trust but verify.

Words I now live by.

Sadly, that is what infidelity does to marriages.

But it gives me peace of mind and I trust that I won't have to do it forever.


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## Harken Banks

Somehow coldwar analogies don't fit comfortably into my view of marriage. They may be apt, but the day I recognize that, I'll be in Switzerland or Lux.


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## Zanna

Harken, I understand, truly I do.

But infidelity never fit comfortably into my view of marriage either.

I hate snooping and I get why you find it degrading but I also believe that living a lie is far worse.

If you continue to read the stories on the board, you will understand.


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## Harken Banks

I feel I have done enough discovery. I found the affair. I recognized the much more problematic affair behaviour. I called it out. My wife very clearly went looking for this, found it, and pursued it. She can do it again and again if she wants and no one can stop her but her. None of that is lost on me. I feel I have been doing 85% of the work to save this marriage, our family. I am tired. She says she wants to fix it. I'm tired. If we are going to keep this off the rocks, I need her help, she has to take the wheel while I rest a bit.


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> Middleman, I have been doing everything wrong from the start. 2 left feet and a bullseye on my chest. I know. Can't get out of my own way. But I'm inclined to go against some of the conventional wisdom. Stay tuned. If only for entertainment value. Oh, and f*ck you for 2nd to last sentence. I mean that in the endearing way you would say it speaking over a beer to a friend.


Translation-----I TOLD you I have been doing everything wrong. I sure I'm right anyway. Hang around and watch the trainwreck (me driving my family into the ground). I would say EFF you but I'm way to nice.


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> I take those as rare moments of honesty, and the rest as acting or reacting. I'm a naif. I'll own it. But I also have a fundamental faith in us. Suppose I would be alone in a place like this.


Well, that's because you are not really all that well read. You've just read a lot.

After you have read the "Married Man Sex Life" relationship manual, you WILL be much better read. By the way, so far what you have shown is that your wife was not in the top six of your priorities. If you missed this in Sunday school, a wife is your number one priority for life.


----------



## Harken Banks

No, I meant the f*ck you in the most hail fellow, well met kind of way. The way it is said to any good friend who is giving you straight sh*t you're not taking at face. All of you know more of this than me, and I am here for your counsel and advice. I'm playing this as the most consequential hand I've been dealt. I'm not ready to make a lab experiment of my marriage or family.


----------



## keko

Harken Banks said:


> I feel I have done enough discovery. I found the affair. I recognized the much more problematic affair behaviour. I called it out. My wife very clearly went looking for this, found it, and pursued it. She can do it again and again if she wants and no one can stop her but her. None of that is lost on me. I feel I have been doing 85% of the work to save this marriage, our family. I am tired. She says she wants to fix it. I'm tired. If we are going to keep this off the rocks, I need her help, she has to take the wheel while I rest a bit.


Understandable, but follow your gut feeling when/if you feel things are wrong again.


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## Harken Banks

Chapparal, you have my ear. Do you always lead with insults? Come out with it, don't be Yoda.


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> Against the considered, considerable, and deeply appreciated advice of this panel, I will trust my wife. She's a good person. This one may surprise you.


What will be surprising is that a poster comes here, says that yet again, and turns out to be right. Of course, there has to be a first time.


----------



## Harken Banks

Thanks Keko. That's where I think I am.


----------



## Harken Banks

Look man, convince me. Don't insult me.


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## Harken Banks

OK, Chaparral, this MMA, humorist sex book is in the mail.


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> Chapparal, you have my ear. Do you always lead with insults? Come out with it, don't be Yoda.


I'm trully sorry. It wasn't an insult but an observation. Unfortunately, cheating is like a bad movie. Affairs, you will find here follow a few standard scripts. Travelling wife is a common one, one of the worst. (Check out Shamwows threads)Your wife has been/is in at minimum in a deep Emotional Affair. That's worse than a ONS. There is a good likely hood that it went physical.

Rule #1 - If they cheat they lie.

As for you, there is also a Betrayed spouse script and you are right on cue. Posters are trying to steer you on a path that has a good chance of saving your family. Some of the posts will be harsh. What they are trying to do is convince you of something while you still have a chance to save your family. 

But, there are things that you have to do. I am on page five of your thread. I litterally had to go get a drink because you are as deep in the denial script as I have seen in a year. One thing you were right about was firing your MC.

Your wife says she wants to work it out so you might save this. It sounds like she ended everything quickly. Unfortunately, the odds of that happening are almost zero. 

For the moment forget the spying, you will come back to that.

For now as soon as you can, get the "Married Man Sex Life" book, it can be downloaded at amazon. This will show you what happened to your marriage, why your wife wandered, and how to win her back. The MAP plan.

You posts have nice, beta guy, written all over them. Also, get the book"No More Mr. Nice Guy". Your number one problem is that your wife has lost respect for you and someone else is filling the void.

Read these books as soon as possible. Read the threads here, it doesn't take long to see what works and what doesn't.

Also, you have separated from your wife. That is a sure fire way to get divorced.

Going to catch up on the last couple of pages of your thread. 

BTW, read the suggested items and you will be much better well read and you will have plan.


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## costa200

Harken, i've been here for a few days. The following sequence is the most common in this forum:

1- Cheated spouse asks for help;

2- Gets advice

3- Ignores advice because his partner is a "good person" and different from the skunks and slime balls he/she reads about and attempts to reconcile;

4- Stops coming to the forum because these guys were cheated on and are all paranoid;

5- Fast forward a few weeks he/she is back because the "paranoid people" were right.


I've seen this happen some 6-7 times just these last days. Hope you luck out though, for your sake.


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## Harken Banks

Thanks man. Truly appreciated. Book is on order. I'll wait for the hard copy. Pretty certain it has not gone physical. That, even on an ONS basis, would be a flat, no negotiation deal breaker.


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## Harken Banks

Some additional information: I am pretty sure this has not gone physical. The only possibility for that would have been the first night on the beach or if this guy got on a plane to go be where she was on one of the trips. I haven’t seen any content to support that. It also seems to me my wife’s ability to maintain implausible denial would shatter had there been so much as a kiss. From what I have been able to see, it seems the content of their conversations following the first week (which was clearly her pursuing this new relationship with reckless abandon) was primarily this sad sack crying on my wife’s shoulder about his own divorce and subsequent attempts at relationship, plying her for companionship, sympathy, and relationship coaching. Not certain of the content flowing the other way, but it seems to have included problems in our marriage and my wife’s loneliness and dissatisfaction. Not great, but not “I love you and can’t wait to **** you.” I’m under no illusion that this or something like it would not head there, but I don’t think it’s there at this point. That said, the pattern of uncharacteristic behavior has been alarming. Just crashing through boundaries left and right. Starting with the night she walked out to the beach with this guy. And the recognition on her part each time that what she was about to do was taboo. “It felt weird.” Why? “Because I was married and [walking out to the beach with blankets with a guy I just met/didn’t know if he was going to make a move/engaging in flirty chat banter with this really nice guy I just met/calling a man who was not my husband etc.]” She said that more than once, when we did actually to talking about what had happened, “It felt weird because . . .[pause] because I was married.” It felt weird because it was taboo. It was reckless and betrayal and it’s clear to me she knew it, though she is remarkably able to maintain contorted dissonance and denial. The last two sentences paraphrase my response. How I told her I saw it. Her reaction was to get very pissed off. Furious even to the point of quaking.

At this point, either she is reluctantly and begrudgingly beginning to make out the shadow of the iceberg, in which case there is reason to hope that we’ll get through as a family, or she is not. In either case, my focus remains where it has been the last 30 or so days. The practical and necessary. The practicalities of the near to mid-term. It seems that at least some of the 180 is probably genetically ingrained.


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## costa200

A walk on the beach with blankets? You're a trusting man, and that's not a bad thing i suppose. I would be ready to pop a vein and beating my chest like a 600 pound ape after that morsel of info.



> “It felt weird because . . .


I must tell you that this expression "weird" is a sugar coat she is using in order to not make you mad. I would replace "weird" for "dangerously exciting" in all such sentences to keep it real.


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## Harken Banks

She was clearly courting disaster. Thanks for the perspective. It's important that I not lose sight of that.


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## costa200

Harken Banks said:


> She was clearly courting disaster. Thanks for the perspective. It's important that I not lose sight of that.


Looking at it from the outside is always easier.


----------



## Harken Banks

Thanks guys, especially for your patience. On board with everything but spying. Also continuing to talk to the MC who has become my IC. She's very good. Sensible. I expect will counsel a slightly more tempered approach. We'll see. I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## iheartlife

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks guys, especially for your patience. On board with everything but spying. Also continuing to talk to the MC who has become my IC. She's very good. Sensible. I expect will counsel a slightly more tempered approach. We'll see. I'll let you know how it goes.


Our MC bluntly told us I should verify my H was telling the truth. It's verifying, not spying. The need slacks off as the loyalty is proven, it's not a permanent solution. 

FYI, we are happily reconciled and recommitted after his long term affair. I'm at the point where the trust has largely been regained, but verifying played a big part in the early weeks.

Also FYI, I didn't verify the first time I caught the affair, 3 years ago. It is sad to see others repeat your mistakes, but such is human nature
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Harken Banks

Thank you. Makes a lot of sense. We are not currently in counseling together and the joint counseling we did get did a lot of damage, especially on that front. I'll continue to work on and through this particular issue.


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## bandit.45

Harken you have to be the strangest dude that has ever come on this site. 

Kind of refreshing actually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sayjellybeans

Too sad. I hope that she wakes up soon, or she's going to be kicking herself.


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## Harken Banks

The Dude Abides- YouTube


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## sayjellybeans

Harken Banks said:


> The Dude Abides- YouTube


No, you did NOT just quote The Big Lebowski!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChaoticSanity

I would like to *FINALLY* quit being a chicken and move on from the 'lurking' to the 'interacting' phase ...... LoL.

Your post is very similar to the situation I have recently had surface in my marriage. Less kids (I only have 2) and we are approaching a mere 5 years. To be quite honest I have no idea what I am doing now adays. Couldnt tell you which end is up, where my keys (or my phone are), and almost feel like I have become a figment of my own imagination in essence. One thing I have had the most difficulty with is feeling like nobody has a clue how much it hurts just to wake up next to him some mornings. For months I have felt backed up against a wall with nothing but divorce papers and a ziplock bag for whatever pieces of my heart I can salvage. You really have been helping me get through one day at a time without even realizing it (im sure my elusive tendencies played a major role in that). To know someone else is going through something even somewhat close to what I am going through is strangely comforting. And to know that I am not the only one in this world willing to put themselves through Hell's Roads to Recovery for someone who was clearly begging for trouble is like its own ray of hope. Seeing your story and dedication is nothing shy of an inspiration for me. Thank you =)


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## Harken Banks

Good day. Interesting day. 10 year old is at summer camp. 5 year old sleeps with me at our house (under renovation). The baby stays with Mom. 8 year old goes back and forth, depending on her mood, but she has her own TV and space at the temporary place, so usually chooses that. Last night like most nights I woke between 2 and 3 and stayed awake or semi-awake until getting out of bed replaying old tapes in my head, the ones that I have not seen with my own eyes. Session with my counselor this morning. She is great! Keeps me pointed in the right direction, which is doing right by me, my wife, and my children by saving, then fixing the marriage. (She likes the ‘take care of yourself so that you can care of others and what needs care’ part of the 180,” but not so much the detachment and turning away, at least for me, for now. Good advice, I think). Then a meeting with the GC at the house with my wife. Inspired by my IC session and without having thought ahead or thinking I would, I put a hand on her shoulder and then an arm around her when the opportunity presented. A break between moving space to space, talking about what was to be –architecturally. And a really good response. Her arm around me in return and then a clinging hug. She even put her rings on after the meeting and before going to lunch. (Yes, the ring sh*t is petty and irritating –nice rings, too. Sometimes when they are deliberately off I want to take them back and pound them into mangled metal and powdered diamonds with a hammer on the granite steps). She asked me to join her at the club, which is down the street from our house. I said no because I was feeling that I had neglected work and people who depend on me (funny when you think about it, but in fact a lot of really smart and successful people do, thankfully more and more every day –if they only knew), but reconsidered and joined her. We were in a good place. But ups and downs from there. Mostly just downs. 

She has for years coveted a promotion to a rung above with her employer. She telecommutes because she wanted to be with me and I was clear from the start that I wanted to be where I wanted to be, which was not then or now the Midwest metropolis where her employer is headquartered. Telecommuting has been a big handicap for this promotion. She would have that and more if she lived there. Less, too. Which might simplify. 

Over the years, the opening has presented and I have been chief supporter and cheerleader. 2 months ago, during yet another promising but failed run at R, at the end of a “date night” [Brief new experiment. Do those work for anyone? Holy cow! What a miserable and miserably contrived institution. Not to mention inevitable disaster. I’d rather stay home with a good movie and a bottle of wine, or just a picnic in the back yard, and then light a few hundred dollar bills on fire to show you care. But I digress.] she’s working her phone with both hands and complaining that “even if they offered me the ******** position right now, I wouldn’t take it.” I’m kind of irritated that I went along with this date night thing and that she’s playing with her phone and running the me and my work are so demanding and important thing, that I say [with a view to all the BS and insanity from the last several months, let alone years] if this is what you want, we can make it work. We can get you an apartment in Monstropolis. And an au pair or nanny for the kids and chaos, so that I can go back to work. Which of course pisses her off. 

Fast forward. Opportunity opens and she’s up all night, nights on end, stressed about her resume, which she admits is a mess. So I say, let me look. It’s in hard shape and I take a few hours to re-work it into something really powerful and sharp. Hand engraving my initials on the casing of the bullet meant only for me. More later.

Oh, and I have Lyme disease. Hazards of trail running.


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## bandit.45

So did your wife have an affair?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Harken Banks

That is the question. And where I am going. Called it out pretty hard tonight. Said I had her back and base (with the necessary domestic arrangements, would include an East European Au Pair, 5' 10", 115 lbs) but, more to the point, if there is any continuation or repeat of anything like this again, I only want to talk about the terms of separation and divorce. Struck the right note. Can't say for sure that I know all of what happened before. I'm sure you know enough about me that I will not be okay with even the smallest infraction.


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## Harken Banks

Sorry. Had to rush the end. My 2 year old pooped hugely in her bathing suit. So I now have sh*t on my hands as I type. Still have to get her into a pull up.

Recognize that, in context, "smallest infraction" cries for clarification. But after diapers and jammies.


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## Beowulf

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks guys, especially for your patience. On board with everything but spying. Also continuing to talk to the MC who has become my IC. She's very good. Sensible. I expect will counsel a slightly more tempered approach. We'll see. I'll let you know how it goes.


Why do you call it spying? You do realize that there is no privacy in a marriage right? My wife and I reconciled 20 years ago after her affair. We still check each other's email, facebook messages, browser history, phone records etc. Its not spying, its openness and honesty. Affairs thrive in darkness, by living in the light a couple can feel safe and their relationship can thrive. So what is the problem again?


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## Harken Banks

Beowulf, I am with you. Completely. Well, not like Morrigan. But I don't think I should try to force this stuff. I have faith we will get there. It'll be sad and a shame, but I'll be pretty much the same if we don't.


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## Harken Banks

bandit.45 said:


> So did your wife have an affair?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In a word, yes.


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## Harken Banks

To all of you out there who think that because you are good people, nothing like this can come into your life, let this be a cautionary tale.


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## OldWolf57

so now you have written your name on the bullet, and will be living apart for her job, but won't verify. Are you sure you want this marriage to work ?? Or, are you setting her up so you can destroy her for the affair suffering you endured ?


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## lordmayhem

This guy was proclaiming the soft approach works and refused to investigate. All he ended up doing was being deceived by False R. He refused to follow the advice on this site.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50915-reflections-why-my-r-failed.html

And it looks like we've got another case in the making. I don't want to see it again, so I'm out of this thread. Good luck with the soft approach. You're going to need it. When it comes to a spouse cheating, nice guys always finish last.


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## Beowulf

lordmayhem said:


> This guy was proclaiming the soft approach works and refused to investigate. All he ended up doing was being deceived by False R. He refused to follow the advice on this site.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50915-reflections-why-my-r-failed.html
> 
> And it looks like we've got another case in the making. I don't want to see it again, so I'm out of this thread. Good luck with the soft approach. You're going to need it. When it comes to a spouse cheating, nice guys always finish last.


To a woman a nice guy is just another woman with different parts. Tough to maintain respect that way.


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## sayjellybeans

If a WS is truly remorseful, empathetic, and looking to improve him/herself, a soft approach seems fine. I know that my conduct henceforth will be appropriate no matter how my BS acts because I am living those qualities that I listed. However, I did not reach this emotional and mental state alone. Reading books, attending IC, and hearing my H say that he wants a D helped whip me into shape, and still I have a long way to go. But, I suppose some WS's could see the light without assistance and much easier than I.
I wish you two the best, HB. Glad you're keeping us apprised of how things are going.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Harken's writing style is so obtuse I have no idea what has happened. I mean, this is the hardest thread I have ever had to wade through. 

He tells the story through tangents, and my poor country boy brain just doesn't work that way. 

I shouldn't have to burn 1000 brain calories just to get the gist of a thread.


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## Beowulf

bandit.45 said:


> Harken's writing style is so obtuse I have no idea what has happened. I mean, this is the hardest thread I have ever had to wade through.
> 
> He tells the story through tangents, and my poor country boy brain just doesn't work that way.
> 
> I shouldn't have to burn 1000 brain calories just to get the gist of a thread.


Think of it like a Sudoku exercise. It will help ward off Alzheimer's.


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## bandit.45

F*ckin lawyers......:rofl:


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## Tall Average Guy

Harken Banks said:


> That is the question. And where I am going. Called it out pretty hard tonight. Said I had her back and base (with the necessary domestic arrangements, would include an East European Au Pair, 5' 10", 115 lbs) but, more to the point,* if there is any continuation or repeat of anything like this again, I only want to talk about the terms of separation and divorce.* Struck the right note. Can't say for sure that I know all of what happened before. I'm sure you know enough about me that I will not be okay with even the smallest infraction.


But how will you know? You won't verify, or spy or what ever you want to call it. So you have her word that she won't and is not doing anything wrong. Of course, she denied that there was an affair going on in the first place, so not sure that is all that reassuring. So with all of that, how will you know if she does it again?


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## OldWolf57

who will the kids stay with ?? sound like with you an EE 5'10".


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## Shaggy

I'm totally lost after reading this thread.

What I did pick up was:

- They were apart a lot due to his commitments with kids sports and her with work
- She met a recently divorced guy while away at a conference.
- She and OM went out onto the beach with blankets etc in the night time and likely had sex. she's said it felt weird since she was married "well duh!"
- She's continued to text and message this guy for hours each day in the months since
- She continues to travel for work.

- I'm guessing since this guy is investing so much time into her and since he's single, it's very likely he's taken trips to meet up with her while she's travelling. 

To OP - has she extended any of her trips to have a Sat night stay over to save $$ (aka have a free day to meet him?)

Are you now filing for D?


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## bandit.45

Thanks for clearing that up. Sheeesh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## one_strange_otter

I want the last 30 minutes of my life back....

Did she sleep with the guy or not? 
Are you divorcing or not?
Why are you so intent on setting yourself up by not checking up on your wife and her intentions with the OM?
I lost track of the houses, apartments, etc....what's the situation there?
And if she telecommutes why does she need an apartment?

Geez...I'd take a "found pics of my wife doing the nasty in bed with the mailman" thread over this one any day...


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## Harken Banks

Thank you, Shaggy, for the Strunk and White version. That's pretty much it, minus the sex on the beach and subsequent hook-ups. Add in a mountain of denial, bottomless well of anger, wall of indifference, and slew of jedi mind tricks.


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## Beowulf

Harken Banks said:


> Thank you, Shaggy, for the Strunk and White version. That's pretty much it, minus the sex on the beach and subsequent hook-ups. Add in a mountain of denial, bottomless well of anger, wall of indifference, and slew of jedi mind tricks.


Umm, I hope you aren't as cryptic with your wife as you are on this thread friend. You need to be direct and resolute with your communications otherwise misunderstandings can and will derail your marriage.


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## bandit.45

He's thinking like a lawyer.

He's worried his lawyer wife will find what he wrote here and slam him in divorce court with it. 

So he won't come out and directly say anything that can be used against him...so he tells his story through metaphors and innuendos.... heiroglyphics that he expects us to decode. 

I just don't have the energy.


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## one_strange_otter

Wait, they are both lawyers? Oh well that makes perfect sense then. You know how a carpenters house is always falling apart? A mechanics car is always sputtering and clunking. A plumber always has leaky pipes at home. Well apparently when your a lawyer you can't follow the same advice you give your clients and nail the cheating spouse to the wall like you should. And all because of that wall of indifference.....

smh

I'm out...


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## OldWolf57

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: you guys kill me !!!


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## Shaggy

Beowulf said:


> Umm, I hope you aren't as cryptic with your wife as you are on this thread friend. You need to be direct and resolute with your communications otherwise misunderstandings can and will derail your marriage.


When a woman agrees to get blankets and go down to a beach together a night, she knows she isn't choosing to talk about the texture in the grains of sand. Sorry, but it's very hard to believe nothing happened that night, esoecially given their subsequent activity and her refusal to give him up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf

Shaggy said:


> When a woman agrees to get blankets and go down to a beach together a night, she knows she isn't choosing to talk about the texture in the grains of sand. Sorry, but it's very hard to believe nothing happened that night, esoecially given their subsequent activity and her refusal to give him up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Shaggy, despite your efforts I am still not sure what is truly going on in this situation. I pride myself on my use of language and I try to be somewhat explicit if not brief. But this thread has me a little baffled.


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## lordmayhem

Shaggy said:


> When a woman agrees to get blankets and go down to a beach together a night, she knows she isn't choosing to talk about the texture in the grains of sand. Sorry, but it's very hard to believe nothing happened that night, esoecially given their subsequent activity and her refusal to give him up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe they played beach blanket bingo? 

Come on Harken Banks, they aren't little kids. People in affairs act like teenagers in love, complete with the sappy love communication and hypersex. The overwhelming odds are that it was just the beach blanket sex, but all kinds of other illicit sex as well as many other hook ups. Read the forums on the cheater site. They will do anything, and everything, and every where and with any chance they get - and its ALL unprotected sex.


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## Harken Banks

one_strange_otter said:


> I want the last 30 minutes of my life back....
> 
> Did she sleep with the guy or not?
> Are you divorcing or not?
> Why are you so intent on setting yourself up by not checking up on your wife and her intentions with the OM?
> I lost track of the houses, apartments, etc....what's the situation there?
> And if she telecommutes why does she need an apartment?
> 
> Geez...I'd take a "found pics of my wife doing the nasty in bed with the mailman" thread over this one any day...


*Pretty sure not.
* Not currently in process. Would prefer to fix the marriage.
* First counselor pretty much chastised me and validated her position that I was being obsessive and controlling by checking her phone and computer. I agree with all of you who say there should be no secrets and we should both be open books. It is just now a bit more difficult and a longer road to get there. I don't think it is the right course to force the issue at this point.
*We are 6 months into a major renovation. Plan from the outset was to move out for 3-4 months and then move back as soon as the shell was up and a temporary kitchen had been established. I had to drive that process hard because my wife did not engage on some of the decisions that required her input. So I worked around them. She says she is moving back in the next few days, but that's basically what she had been saying for the past 2 months, with the timeline slipping but gradually shortening (2 months ago it was like 2 weeks, a month ago, 1 week, last night she talked about everyone going back for the night, but she was out at PTO -her first meeting as president- past the kids bedtime and there was enough going on for me that I did not care to add the hassle of moving all the kids back last night).
*She telecommutes. If she gets this promotion, it may require that she spend more time at company headquarters and more time travelling. I doubt there will be any arrangement that makes sense that involves an apartment for when she is there. I was kind of being a jerk when I suggested we could get her an apartment. The timing of this opportunity is not ideal.


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## Harken Banks

Shaggy said:


> When a woman agrees to get blankets and go down to a beach together a night, she knows she isn't choosing to talk about the texture in the grains of sand. Sorry, but it's very hard to believe nothing happened that night, esoecially given their subsequent activity and her refusal to give him up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One of many disturbing data points. Stunning to me that she walked out to the beach with this guy. That is the tape that was running through my head last night. But the content I have seen, including all 15.5 pages of the next day's facebooking, does not seem to support there having been any physical contact.


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## cabin fever

do you honestly think if they shagged on the beach they would broadcast it all over Facebook?

the mere fact that there is 15 pages of conversation, should be the smoking gun you need.


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## warlock07

Let us be a little nice people.


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## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> One of many disturbing data points. Stunning to me that she walked out to the beach with this guy. That is the tape that was running through my head last night. But the content I have seen, including all 15.5 pages of the next day's facebooking, does not seem to support there having been any physical contact.


Harlen,

For someone that makes it look like their wife is so busy she really is not busy enough......

Maybe her new position will keep her busy and off of facebook.

If not, you really will have your hands full again.

HM64


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## Harken Banks

Seems pretty clear from those 15 pages that they sat in separate Adirondack chairs (there is a reference to a FB picture she posted that shows the view from her room and the chairs -"you can see our chairs in the pic I posted") and talked about his marriage and divorce and at least a little bit advising her to work on the marriage to avoid what he was going through. There seems to have been some talk about his dating and sex life (I would guess not graphic details) and my wife teasing him about bragging about feedback he relayed from dates that countered his wife's criticism. I don't see anything in the volume (which is staggering, no doubt) to suggest any contact.


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## Harken Banks

Not to worry. No need to pull punches. I'm here for honest feedback. And it's entertaining. Sometimes bleak and depressing, but entertaining.


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## Shaggy

Ok let's say he didn't make a move on her that night. Chairs are certainly better than the beach blankets your first description suggested.

Then what about the massive on going exchanges? That's a big jump for someone you just met and chatted with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

Harken Banks said:


> * First *counselor pretty much chastised me and validated her position that I was being obsessive and controlling by checking her phone and computer*. I agree with all of you who say there should be no secrets and we should both be open books. It is just now a bit more difficult and a longer road to get there. I don't think it is the right course to force the issue at this point.


I should hope you fired that counselor. Some do more harm than good, and aren't experienced in dealing with infidelity. All they end up doing is validating the WS's affair and making things worse. 

iheartlife has a good counsellor that has no problem holding her WH's feet to the fire and holding him accountable for his actions. Sometimes you have to shop around until you find a good one.


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## Harken Banks

Shaggy said:


> Ok let's say he didn't make a move on her that night. Chairs are certainly better than the beach blankets your first description suggested.
> 
> Then what about the massive on going exchanges? That's a big jump for someone you just met and chatted with.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


F*cked up, no doubt. Hardcore EA at a minimum. She went looking for it, she found it, she pursued it. We were not in a good place. Probably some revenge motivation, too. Turns out I had been guilty of exercising some bad judgment that I was blind to at the time and unaware had made such an impression on her. No intent to be cryptic. I've just got to work for a while. When I have time I'll share that. I did not see it as directly relevant to the process of my trying to make sense of the information in front of me. Met an old gf with lots of history for drinks (outdoor, patio restaurant during the day) without telling my wife in advance and stayed long enough that had to tell my wife where I had been when she asked. That was last Sept. She was angry, but that's pretty much always the case. I was blind enough not see that she was also very hurt. I learned about the hurt only in this process of asking what the hell she was doing carrying on with this guy. My wife is very tough and almost all unpleasant emotions are processed as anger, at least to the outside observer. She describes it verbally as hurt, but her outward expression is anger.


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## iheartlife

Yes, I had read Not Just Friends, we had gone through MC before, and that counselor just assumed my H's EA was over. He never asked about the affair or its details, never asked if they were in touch. I never checked anything at all, from day one, because at the time I knew zero about infidelity or the obvious patterns cheaters follow.

So this time, I reasoned sex/porn counselors would have knowledge about compulsions (affairs are an example) and of course about infidelity. I got on the phone with a group in our area. I talked to 2 different counselors and they immediately knew the lingo. They gave us several referrals. We chose a man who has great sensitivity and humor; my H likes him a lot. But he told me to GPS my H's phone etc. for now. So far we've spent nearly 8 hours of counseling dealing with the affair. We've just started dealing with strengthening the marriage via therapy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy

Harken Banks said:


> * First counselor pretty much chastised me and validated her position that I was being obsessive and controlling by checking her phone and computer. I agree with all of you who say there should be no secrets and we should both be open books. It is just now a bit more difficult and a longer road to get there. I don't think it is the right course to force the issue at this point.


Again, so how to you intend on verifying that she is not continuing the EA? She does not think she has done or is doing anything wrong. She was not honest (or at least hid) about the conversations. So her merely saying so probably does not hold a lot of weight. So how will you know?

Since you don't like Cold War analogies, lets try one a bit more up to date. Would you be controlling if you monitored Bernie Madoff while he took care of your 401(k)?


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## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> Seems pretty clear from those 15 pages that they sat in separate Adirondack chairs (there is a reference to a FB picture she posted that shows the view from her room and the chairs -"you can see our chairs in the pic I posted") and talked about his marriage and divorce and at least a little bit advising her to work on the marriage to avoid what he was going through. There seems to have been some talk about his dating and sex life (I would guess not graphic details) and my wife teasing him about bragging about feedback he relayed from dates that countered his wife's criticism. I don't see anything in the volume (which is staggering, no doubt) to suggest any contact.


When I read this, and thinking lawyers, my first thought was plausible deniability. 

You are the leader of your family. It is your responsibility after being given this amount of evidence, to follow through with every resource available to you to save/protect your family. Anything less is totally irresponsible behavior.


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## Harken Banks

Thanks all for the input and advice. My wife was in my office to conduct a phone interview for the position and afterwards, minutes ago, was showing her an email that I had typed to her on my office computer. Dumb, yes. Of course she sees the string of emails from this forum. So my wife is now aware of my virtual alter ego. I would request that any further comments be mindful of my oft-repeated desire to save and fix my marriage. Yet another misstep.
-HB


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## Tall Average Guy

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks all for the input and advice. My wife was in my office to conduct a phone interview for the position and afterwards, minutes ago, was showing her an email that I had typed to her on my office computer. Dumb, yes. Of course she sees the string of emails from this forum. So my wife is now aware of my virtual alter ego. I would request that any further comments be mindful of my oft-repeated desire to save and fix my marriage. Yet another misstep.
> -HB


In the even that your wife is reading this, how does she intend to restore your trust and demonstrate that she is no longer in the affair? What steps is she taking to do this?


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## anonymouskitty

Have the mods move this thread to the private members section and change the password of your email id (for now)


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## Shaggy

And you can turn off emails in the user options
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Harken Banks

Thanks Kitty. I have no secrets.


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## Tall Average Guy

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks Kitty. I have no secrets.


Does your wife?


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## Harken Banks

lordmayhem said:


> This guy was proclaiming the soft approach works and refused to investigate. All he ended up doing was being deceived by False R. He refused to follow the advice on this site.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50915-reflections-why-my-r-failed.html
> 
> And it looks like we've got another case in the making. I don't want to see it again, so I'm out of this thread. Good luck with the soft approach. You're going to need it. When it comes to a spouse cheating, nice guys always finish last.


Sobering.


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## Harken Banks

lordmayhem said:


> I should hope you fired that counselor. Some do more harm than good, and aren't experienced in dealing with infidelity. All they end up doing is validating the WS's affair and making things worse.


Spot on. Fired him as soon as that became clear.


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## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> Sobering.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/31959-false-recovery.html

Brutal


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## Harken Banks

cantthinkstraight said:


> New rule: No more cell phones in the bedroom.


My wife's entire office is in the bedroom. In the bed, even.


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## aug

Harken Banks said:


> My wife's entire office is in the bedroom. In the bed, even.




Hmmm, what type of profession works out of a bed in a bedroom? That probably didn't come out the way you wanted. Or, did it?


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## Harken Banks

She's a lawyer by training, so maybe not so far off from where you were going. But that certainly wasn't intended as you point out it may be taken. Our bed is her office. Computer, stacks of papers, etc. I was looking back through the thread. When I first saw the post from cantthinkstraight I thought it was a nice thought, but kind of anachronistic. Each time I see it, it seems to make more sense.


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## Beowulf

Harken Banks said:


> She's a lawyer by training, so maybe not so far off from where you were going. But that certainly wasn't intended as you point out it may be taken. *Our bed is her office. Computer, stacks of papers, etc.* I was looking back through the thread. When I first saw the post from cantthinkstraight I thought it was a nice thought, but kind of anachronistic. Each time I see it, it seems to make more sense.


And you tolerate this why?


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## Harken Banks

Fair question. It had already happened before I noticed it and it wasn’t even until recently that I began to recognize how screwed up it was. We moved to the house we are in now (kind of) almost 6 years ago, within a few weeks of the birth of our now 5 year old. My wife was on leave for about 3 months and set up with the baby, bassinette, and baby stuff in the master bedroom. When she transitioned back to work, the laptop and stacks of papers joined the stacks of diapers, wipes, jammies, etc. It became her office and it was so seamless that I didn't notice. I just picked up that it wasn't my space.


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## Harken Banks

Tall Average Guy said:


> Does your wife?


Remains to be seen.


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## Beowulf

Harken Banks said:


> Fair question. It had already happened before I noticed it and it wasn’t even until recently that I began to recognize how screwed up it was. We moved to the house we are in now (kind of) almost 6 years ago, within a few weeks of the birth of our now 5 year old. My wife was on leave for about 3 months and set up with the baby, bassinette, and baby stuff in the master bedroom. When she transitioned back to work, the laptop and stacks of papers joined the stacks of diapers, wipes, jammies, etc. It became her office and it was so seamless that I didn't notice. I just picked up that it wasn't my space.


Tell her it has to go. She can make her office her office. Unless she'd like to change the venues entirely and have sex with you at her workplace.


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## Tall Average Guy

Harken Banks said:


> Remains to be seen.


Again, how will you know?

I understand I am a broken record about this, but since you keep ignoring it, I feel the need to ask - how will you know your wife is being open with you?


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## Harken Banks

It’s a problem. I don’t have the answer. The consistent observation around here has been that I am naïve and willing myself into delusion. The advice, that I’m in a textbook situation and should safely assume more upsetting things are not being told. 

And every day I learn things that were or would have been denied the day before. So I don’t know where it ends. And then I of course go through the process of fitting the new information into the timeline, where the new information sheds a different light on other details that would otherwise have been forgotten but that now points-up previous inconsistencies and denials that raise further questions. If I knew on D-Day things that I know now, I would have known some of what I was up against and reacted in a way less hapless, and perhaps more likely to save my marriage. 

The patterns in the stories here seem pretty consistent and predictive. I have been holding out hope, against your admonishments and consternation, that mine will play out differently. That our situation will show to be exceptional. Despite this aberrant chapter, she is an exceptional person. And there is my hope. But I am also coming to realize my ability to hold two inconsistent thoughts simultaneously, while each stands independent and unassailable, and the two together do not reconcile.

I don’t see how I move forward with healing in this relationship with uncertainty as to what may have been withheld. I don’t have that level of emotional maturity. That’s the Bob path. The only path I can make out that may carry a healthy relationship is one where she discovers that she has enough respect for me to be absolutely forthcoming, regardless of the fall out, and I am satisfied that she has been. I don’t think I’m going to waterboard her.


----------



## ItMatters

There are way to many big words in that response...


----------



## bandit.45

Kinda cool. He's Early Victorian in his writing style. I get the gist. 

You moved too slowly Harken and lost your opportunity to nail her back when you first suspected she was having the affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> It’s a problem. I don’t have the answer. The consistent observation around here has been that I am naïve and willing myself into delusion. The advice, that I’m in a textbook situation and should safely assume more upsetting things are not being told.
> 
> And every day I learn things that were or would have been denied the day before. So I don’t know where it ends. And then I of course go through the process of fitting the new information into the timeline, where the new information sheds a different light on other details that would otherwise have been forgotten but that now points-up previous inconsistencies and denials that raise further questions. If I knew on D-Day things that I know now, I would have known some of what I was up against and reacted in a way less hapless, and perhaps more likely to save my marriage.
> 
> The patterns in the stories here seem pretty consistent and predictive. I have been holding out hope, against your admonishments and consternation, that mine will play out differently. That our situation will show to be exceptional. Despite this aberrant chapter, she is an exceptional person. And there is my hope. But I am also coming to realize my ability to hold two inconsistent thoughts simultaneously, while each stands independent and unassailable, and the two together do not reconcile.
> 
> I don’t see how I move forward with healing in this relationship with uncertainty as to what may have been withheld. I don’t have that level of emotional maturity. That’s the Bob path. The only path I can make out that may carry a healthy relationship is one where she discovers that she has enough respect for me to be absolutely forthcoming, regardless of the fall out, and I am satisfied that she has been. I don’t think I’m going to waterboard her.


This confuses me, it sounds like she is trickletruthing you but I don't recall you providing any new details. Can you provide a succinct timeline with the info. 

It sounds like you expect her to respect you now after an affair, well that ain't going to happen................yet. 

You can't seem to accept reality, the reality is that cheaters lie, they get good at it, you can't tell when they are lying, and you will know whent they are lying/not lying when you verify their statements independently through your own efforts. 

Here are your choices: verify what your wife tells you, live in an open marriage for as long as she still wants a part of you, divorce now. You can parse it any way you want but there are thousands of threads that absolutely prove your way is impossible. I actually posted to someone a week or so ago that one poster did not listen and it worked out. This poster came back last week because he found it went underground.


----------



## Harken Banks

Much of the troubling stuff happened before I was even aware. And after that, before I had a name for it. Unfortunately, it continued even after I said 'I don't know what this is, but I don't like it.' This place has helped me to see it for what it is.


----------



## Harken Banks

You all were right, I was wrong. I will thank each of you in turn. Bandit, SJB, Lord, MattMatt come to mind immediately, but there are many more. Keko, Mario, Chapparal and so on. And she would have gotten away with it if not for you meddling kids . Going with my 5 year old, Sophia, now to cast for mackerel. For the sake of closing the circle, I’d like to ask for some assistance on how to retrieve texts, ims, and emails. The phone is a Blackberry clamshell. It system is corporate Outlook with Iming.


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## iheartlife

What happened??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Harken Banks

Not sure I'm gonna share. I'm not in a telling mood. I'm in a fishing mood. I don't even fish.


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## iheartlife

??? 

You are rarely in a telling mood, anyhow.

Or is Sophia doing the typing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Ya gotta tell us what happened if you want more concise help friend.


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## keko

Maybe this way for the phone, 

BlackBerry - Desktop Software - Canada - Canada

ABC Amber BlackBerry Converter - Download

As for her emails, try installing a keylogger on the computer she uses. You'll get her passwords to secret or not email account. Try Checkout our mobile, software and hardware keyloggers - Desktop Shark Keylogger Products. or Keylogger, Key Logger, Remote Computer Monitoring | WebWatcher


----------



## Harken Banks

Right now I just want to stop to share with you that you were right and then as soon as I figure out this damn reel go fish with my daughter.


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## Harken Banks

keko said:


> Maybe this way for the phone,
> 
> BlackBerry - Desktop Software - Canada - Canada
> 
> ABC Amber BlackBerry Converter - Download
> 
> As for her emails, try installing a keylogger on the computer she uses. You'll get her passwords to secret or not email account. Try Checkout our mobile, software and hardware keyloggers - Desktop Shark Keylogger Products. or Keylogger, Key Logger, Remote Computer Monitoring | WebWatcher


Thanks, Keko. I am not looking for monitoring. Just recovery.


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## warlock07

How did you? How sure are you of the evidence? Be concise, not cryptic


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## bandit.45

Yes.... no more Nathaniel Hawthorn, pre-Victorian English grammar lessons please.


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## Chaparral

warlock07 said:


> How did you? How sure are you of the evidence? Be concise, not cryptic


I'm afraid he can't help himself. Its a severe handicap.


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## Harken Banks

First hand.


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## warlock07

You saw them having sex?


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## Harken Banks

Second hand from me to you.


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## Beowulf

Harken Banks said:


> First hand.


Oh God, he must have caught them. I'm so sorry Harken. My heart goes out to you. I don't know much about Blackberry's but there are others here that do.


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## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> First hand.


Means absolutely nothing. I told you he could not help himself.

We know you are hurt Harken but you are literally insulting those that are truly trying to help your family through one of the worst kind of ordeals they could possibly go through.


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## warlock07

No wonder his responses are a bit off. 

So divorce?


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## Harken Banks

No, I did not see them having sex. Worse. Chapparal, give me a break, your complaint is that I'm hurting you? F*ck, it's like I'm talking to my wife.


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## keko

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks, Keko. I am not looking for monitoring. Just recovery.


You were a lawyer correct? Can't you "have" the phone company hand over text message to you?

As for the keylogger, once you get access to her emails you might find old message in the trash bin or the sent folder.


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## Harken Banks

Keko, this is kind of funny. The phone company is her employer.


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## keko

Harken Banks said:


> Keko, this is kind of funny. The phone company is her employer.


Is the OM involved in that company as well?


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## Harken Banks

Yep.


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## keko

Can't you threaten suing the company for destroying your faimily in return for the texts?


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## Harken Banks

Keko, I don't think so and the company is basically in the pink sheets. Satchel, please don't get to far ahead of me. This is not one of those farcical strings. This is a family falling apart in real time.


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> No, I did not see them having sex. Worse. Chapparal, give me a break, your complaint is that I'm hurting you? F*ck, it's like I'm talking to my wife.


See what I mean Harken, there is no info in this post. There is not one person reading this that has a clue what you are talking about.

Worse than seeing them having sex. I would make a list but I can't think of anything to put on it.

Matbe they have been having a long term affair. Your kids aren't yours? She's already left?


----------



## Chaparral

BTW Harken, you are not hurting me or anyone else here. You missed my point.


----------



## Beowulf

Harken Banks said:


> Keko, I don't think so and the company is basically in the pink sheets. Satchel, please don't get to far ahead of me. This is not one of those farcical strings. This is a family falling apart in real time.


Actually what Satchel suggests is not farcical. One of our long time posters and a great guy found exactly that on his home computer.


----------



## Harken Banks

Couple friends came over. It's a nice night. We're going fishing, keeping my 5 year old out past her bedtime. I am a bad parent.


----------



## keko

So what exactly happened for it to be worse then you catching them in the act?

How much difference will that make incase of a divorce, in your state?


----------



## happyman64

Hakim

We all know you are hurting. None of us take any satisfaction in being right that your wife is cheating on you.

Surround yourself with friends and your daughter. We will be here when you are ready to talk.

But if you want our guidance you have to reach out to us.

Your entire family is in my prayers tonight.

HM64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

Happy, it's Hakim. Sheesh


----------



## Harken Banks

Keko, I don't know. I think it's irrelevant as a matter of law.


----------



## Harken Banks

Satchel, I was wrong about believing in my wife. And everyone here was jumping up and down and shouting. But my mistake is importantly different from me being wrong and everyone else being right.


----------



## keko

I wish I knew what you learned or realized.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanna

Harken, tell people what you've found clearly and concisely so they can help you.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this but unfortunately with infidelity, there is a script. Although, perhaps it is not that unfortunate because when you understand how to apply the knowledge, then you can deal with it more effectively.


----------



## Harken Banks

With all you have given me, I owe you more. I will give back. But not tonight.


----------



## Don'tknowwhattothink

Catch any Mackerel with your daughter? I've oddly also been doing a lot of fishing with the kids since Dday. I do think it helps a LOT to do something different.


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> Happy, it's Hakim. Sheesh


Sorry buddy my Ipad has a mind of its own.


----------



## Chaparral

Harken's absence after his troublesome posts gives me a deep sense of foreboding. Although in some cases, actyually seeing that an OP is posting makes me dread seeing that yet another shoe has dropped.

Prayers for you Harken.


----------



## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> Harken's absence after his troublesome posts gives me a deep sense of foreboding. Although in some cases, actyually seeing that an OP is posting makes me dread seeing that yet another shoe has dropped.
> 
> Prayers for you Harken.


Not to worry. The dude abides. Prayers and your posts last night appreciated. I have to be diplomatic and circumspect in what I post, as my wife reads this stuff.


----------



## warlock07

Now his cryptic posts make sense.


----------



## iheartlife

Double post


----------



## iheartlife

warlock07 said:


> Now his cryptic posts make sense.


To Harken, if to no other single solitary human being on the planet.

Wishing you the best, Harken, if only you were less oblique.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Beowulf

Harken Banks said:


> Not to worry. The dude abides. Prayers and your posts last night appreciated. I have to be diplomatic and circumspect in what I post, as my wife reads this stuff.


Contact a moderator and ask them to move this thread to the private section.


----------



## Harken Banks

Thank you, Beowulf. I'll consider it. But it's kind of inconsistent with my philosophy. Yeah, I'd rather not shoot any more holes in my feet, but I don't have any secrets in this arena and don't want to start keeping them.


----------



## Harken Banks

Disgust. Washing over in me waves. Reminds me of the feeling I had sitting in the surf as a kid while the tide is coming in.


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> Disgust. Washing over in me waves. Reminds me of the feeling I had sitting in the surf as a kid while the tide is coming in.


I guess you found what you weren't looking for.


----------



## Harken Banks

Certainly not what I was expecting.


----------



## bandit.45

This would be engaging if we all could figure out what was going on. 

Guess we'll have to absorb everything and come to conclusions through osmosis. 

I need an energy drink.


----------



## Chaparral

You have found out what your wife is doing but she doesn't know it. And you can't tell us because she reads here. You can't move to the members section because, although she has lied, cheated and broken your heart you can't have secrets from her. That means you and your wife not only have completely different ideas of what marriage means you also disagree on keeping secrets from each other.

So the only secret you are going to keep from her is what you are going to do about it. Now we're not only in the dark we're confused too. LOL


----------



## Harken Banks

I amuse my therapists, too.


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> I amuse my therapists, too.


Sounds like a plan.:smthumbup:


----------



## keko

So what's your plan now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Stop writing haiku and switch to prose please
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## iheartlife

Yes, I'm sorry, but I think you are fooling yourself about the not keeping secrets thing. You are doing exactly that, and particularly from her.

Do you mind explaining why you post? And I mean that kindly. You could write the same oblique things in a journal, or just send your wife emails with these cryptic thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

iheartlife said:


> Do you mind explaining why you post? And I mean that kindly. You could write the same oblique things in a journal, or just send your wife emails with these cryptic thoughts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I enjoy your company. Some here know that I have learned very important lessons from you. I hope to be able to give back with my experience. I have been going through hell. This place has helped me find my way.


----------



## Harken Banks

iheartlife, my wife became aware of my presence here only a few days ago. Wasn't the plan. I think that's on page 11. Complicates things, no doubt.


----------



## iheartlife

Yes, but are you sharing your discoveries with her, but not with us?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

Guileless will be my epitaph.


----------



## Harken Banks

iheartlife said:


> Yes, but are you sharing your discoveries with her, but not with us?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know things that are not posted. She knows things I do not. I may know things she does not know I know. Rumsfeldian, no?


----------



## keko

Harken Banks said:


> iheartlife, my wife became aware of my presence here only a few days ago. Wasn't the plan. I think that's on page 11. Complicates things, no doubt.


Does she have access to your account or just knows this thread?


----------



## Acabado

Gather indisputable evidence, collect your thoughs about dealbreaker/Last chance rebuild. Talk to a lawyer anyway. Confront. Lay the law if that's what you want and wait.
Not rocket science. Not easy but simple.


----------



## Harken Banks

keko said:


> Does she have access to your account or just knows this thread?


I don't know. I am only clever enough to have 2 passwords and she knows both. Guess if she didn't before she does now. I don't care. I only use messages for things that are not appropriate for the general public, either because they are TMI or clutter. Not secret.


----------



## keko

Harken Banks said:


> I don't know. I am only clever enough to have 2 passwords and she knows both. Guess if she didn't before she does now. I don't care. I only use messages for things that are not appropriate for the general public, either because they are TMI or clutter. Not secret.


Just think of another password and post in the private section.

With the current way you're not posting much, we're not offering any help and we're just confusing the heck out of each other.


----------



## Harken Banks

Acabado said:


> Gather indisputable evidence, collect your thoughs about dealbreaker/Last chance rebuild. Talk to a lawyer anyway. Confront. Lay the law if that's what you want and wait.
> Not rocket science. Not easy but simple.


Solid advice, no doubt.


----------



## Harken Banks

keko said:


> Just think of another password and post in the private section.
> 
> With the current way you're not posting much, we're not offering any help and we're just confusing the heck out of each other.


I don't mean to waste your time. Her being her complicates things, not doubt, but she's welcome (hi honey). It's just, I am hugely conflicted about the secret thing having been so hugely, fundamentally, and devastatingly deceived for so long. Horrific and life altering. But everyone here knows that.


----------



## I'm The Prize

I've just plugged into this on going thread and I think I get it. Harken knows things but doesn't want to show his hand to his wife. First of all, we all know that when we confront we should never tell HOW we know something. It gives the WS the ability to dig deeper. The second thing is that this woman is a lawyer. They are known for taking the evidence and finding a way to discredit it. Third, I can think of only one thing that would be worse than me seeing it with my own eyes and if that is what it is he is extremely wise to keep it to himself. Nothing good will come of that coming out and he needs to find another way, any other way, to prove she's cheating. I get it Harken. My mind works that way and if I'm right I am heart broken for you because the affair is nothing compared to that. Prayer for you!


----------



## Acabado

What you wants her is to come clean on her own, a full, no minimized, downplayed, trickle true'd diclosure?
Rarely happens. Despite the evidence screaming is the best, actually the only chance most times.

Hey, Mrs. HB (LOL!), come clean, please. Give him that respect, save face, show dignity, give up the control of the outcome. Stop lying, it's not love. Just spill the beans. Already!.


----------



## lordmayhem

Harken Banks said:


> I don't mean to waste your time. Her being her complicates things, not doubt, but she's welcome (hi honey). It's just, I am hugely conflicted about the secret thing having been so hugely, fundamentally, and devastatingly deceived for so long. Horrific and life altering. But everyone here knows that.


I seriously don't see the point of continuing this thread.


----------



## TBT

Acabado said:


> What you wants her is to come clean on her own, a full, no minimized, downplayed, trickle true'd diclosure?
> Rarely happens. Despite the evidence screaming is the best, actually the only chance most times.
> 
> Hey, Mrs. HB (LOL!), come clean, please. Give him that respect, save face, show dignity, give up the control of the outcome. Stop lying, it's not love. Just spill the beans. Already!.


His wife posts under user name AllMessedUp.


----------



## Chaparral

lordmayhem said:


> I seriously don't see the point of continuing this thread.


He can't follow good/experienced advice because he isn't getting any since no one has any idea what is going on and can't comment.

He has evidently found the smoking gun and can't decide if he has the stones to pull the divorce trigger. Which leads me to think he is getting played pretty hard or she could care less.


----------



## Harken Banks

My wife asked me to get your advice on R. 

I will try to tell it as directly as possible. Trickletruth. About a week and a half ago, she learned she had been selected to interview for the position her boss had left and she was positively giddy. My view had been from the start that this job would be the final death knell of our marriage. That fact that she was so fixated on it when we were falling apart from neglect (and now I know, massive infidelity and deceit) was terribly disheartening. She had a PTO meeting, her first as newly elected President of the PTO, so it would be a big meeting and require some preparation. I was watching the kids. As she was getting ready, she mentioned the opportunity and offered that we could get help with the kids (something that I had been pointing out as necessary for a long time, but that always made her angry and resentful). I had a lot of things on my mind, and said “If this [the affair, which I then thought was pretty innocent] continues or anything like it happens ever again, I only want to talk about the terms of separation and divorce.” She said she understood. Later that night, she said something like “I get it, I am not allowed to have close male friends.” It was such an incredible BS, such an incredibly dishonest mischaracterization that I was furious, called her on it, and pointed out (i) that she has had close male friends as long as I have known her and it has never been a problem, she has travelled extensively for work, sometimes every other week, and it has never been a problem (I can’t see how I could ever be OK with that again), and (ii) the pattern of way out of bounds, escalating reckless behavior (the “weirdness”). Here is an email I sent

*****, it is complete BS for you to characterize this, as you did last night, as me objecting to you having male friends. I am sick of the BS on this. You engaged in a pattern of reckless behavior where you were crashing through boundaries left and right. I’m not saying you went out there to have sex with the guy. I’m saying you did something that felt “weird” because you knew it was not the sort of thing a woman like you who is married would do. “[Work Friend] would totally laugh if she knew I was ‘chatting’ with you right know.” You did it again. “I wanted to call but did not know if that would be a bad idea.” You did it again. And so on. I do not recognize that person as the woman I chose to marry.

In her reply she said; “Yes, I know it was not appropriate.” And I replied: “Then why have you avoided this point, spun me around, and watched me fall apart for 4 months over the continuing deception and betrayal without a seeming shred of concern or empathy for this person, who was and is for now your husband.”

Her response: “I’m sorry – for all the pain, for being unfair to you and your feelings. I can’t change the past – I can only move forward and show you that I love you and want to be together with you with assurance that I will never do anything that makes me feel weird again. I hope you will allow me that chance.” In the right direction, but underwhelming after 4 months of this nightmare of deception and betrayal.

This is the day of the phone interview in my office where she discovers TAM and Harken Banks. It is also the day I start getting some very direct feedback from members of this community advising me in no uncertain terms that this is a sexual affair and there is a lot more that has been hidden. It finally starts to sink in. I schedule an emergency meeting with my IC for the next morning. My wife goes a bit into panic mode and emails me at 2:30 am in an email titled “Noting Happened” : “I know you are filled with thoughts that something happened on the beach in Florida and I swear to you, upon all four of our daughters’ lives, that I did not lay a hand on him or him on me. Not one single touch.” Verbally she makes a kind of mocking statement, to show that I am ridiculous, that “Well, he handed me diet coke, so maybe our hands touched.” She mocks me a lot.

Chilly weekend between us. Taking kids to camp, some time at the pool. But your stern warnings and advice are sinking in. And she senses that. Monday of this week she wants to talk about what happened. Asks what I want to know. I don’t know what I don’t know so I say “Tell me the worst.” She says we had conversations about sex. I listen. She describes it very clinically, like the conversations were very sterile sort comparing notes stuff. But includes discussion of likes and dislikes. Her discomfort with a particular act. His reply that if it’s done right, it is wonderful and he has the technique, which he explains to her. What kind of underwear he wears. Boxer briefs in 3 colors, white, grey, and black. It becomes there joke each day that she asks what color. She has told him that she recently bought underwear that she tells me is for me (not taking that at face). I am calm in my mind, but all over body shaking. Visibly. Pauses become longer. I am thinking OK, that’s a lot to take in. Her body language says, “There, I told you, OK?” I say I’m going to let that sink in for a while and leave. 

I think this is the night I take my 5 year old fishing. Friends come over. Stage an intervention and give me their frank view. This stuff is way f*cked up, but even without and before this, you were facing problems in the marriage that in their view probably could not be fixed and that I should be focused on the well being of the children and myself right now. Wife comes over while they are with me. Says she will leave until they are gone, but asks if she can come back and stay. I say yes. By the time she arrives and hearing her come in the door it is clear I cannot even turn to face her and say “Go.” She does. Next morning during the routine of getting kids to camp and daycare she wants to hug. It’s not in me. Tell her we are separating. says she wants me to talk to my therapist. To reconsider and work on us. That she wants to fight for us. I tell her her timing sucks. I have spent the past four months fighting tooth and nail for us, while she was carrying on this affair and flat lying to my face without a quiver in her voice, while I was demonstrably falling apart in despair of the loss of our marriage, our family, my sense of reality due to the nightmare of deception and betrayal. 


The next day I have counseling. Talk to my therapist. Tell her about this. That I am realizing there is a lot more. She nods.

Maybe the next day, my wife wants to talk again. Begins to tell me they shared fantasies about each other with each other. She tells em she wrote him a Penthouse letter in which she describes meeting him in a hotel during travel, stripping him down, performing oral. That he tells her about bending her over etc. That he tells her he masturbates thinking about her. I ask her if she does the same for him. Says “no.” I don’t know why I would believe that. 

Stomach turning. Huge ickiness. Makes me want to vomit. I don’t want to be with her. That night or maybe the next, she comes over with the 2 year old to join us fishing (it’s just a walk to the marina). Nice time. We come back, I tell her I know that there is more. She talks more. Very upset. Says they discussed plans to meet during business travel. That he tried to get approval to join her at a 3 day meeting at headquarters that happened in June. That at one point when she was travelling to headquarters for a few days, she said “what if I send you a ticket?” I put all of this into my own words and tell it back to her. Not a pretty picture. I am coming to think that the line between what she tells me is fantasy and what is real may not exist. Get STD test.

She says she made a mistake. I say this is not like a traffic accident. This did not happen to her. She did it. On purpose with purposeful steps over a period of months while I spent thousands in therapy where she lied to the therapist and to me. It’s just so disgusting. I do not know how I can possibly trust this person again. And the imagery that I will never be free of is just so appallingly abhorrent and disgusting. Makes me want to vomit. Makes it so I don’t want this person near me.

And there are four beautiful little girls in the middle of it. 

I asked her to ask her employer to retrieve her old work phone and all retrievable emails, IMs, texts and other communications before I will consider joint counseling. I can’t trust what I hear from her. I can’t believe that there is not still more. She seems to be in the process of gathering this stuff. 

Four months and I am learning this only in the last 4 days. She asked me to get your advice. BTW, she has a thread "Seeking Advice." I told you it would be entertaining.


----------



## Chaparral

What are the odds you will be able to get the old phone etc.?

It is hard to believe there isn't much more since she has been trikle truthing al along. That makes it look like she is trying to control the damage. 

Number one you need to check what you can. Find out from his ex why they were divorcing in the event this goes back further than you know. She told you she wishes, in effect, she had never married you. At this point you can not believe anything you can not verify.

Double check cell/text logs and emails you have access to.

There is a set on instructions for the wayward spouse but I am not sure you are ready to decide on reconcilliation since you haven't gotten to the bottom of the affair.

Here is link for you to consider, the 11th post down the page:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...sided-need-perspective-please.html#post534068

Hopefully it is not any worse than you already know.

Good luck and Prayers
Chap


----------



## warlock07

The good old "trickle truth". Had she come clean the first time, believing her would have been more easy.


----------



## lovelygirl

You have many BS on this forum whose WS have sworn on their kids' life that nothing happened...until the BS found out the opposite.
A cheater will do anything to cover the unwanted details...
Yes. Even if it means to swear on you kid's life or your loved one's grave.


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## kenmoore14217

Harken, my personal feelings only, this is one battle I would not fight. The trauma over fighting a battle that can not be won is incredible! Divorce please


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## iheartlife

Yes, swearing on your children's lives should go down as the biggest red flag in the cheater's script. I have never heard of someone doing it except in the context of an affair, and I've never heard of any truth coming out that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko

My god she promised over her kids life only to lie shortly after. 

Harken were not talking about 8th graders so they're not going to stop with a few sexual messages. They had sex, most likely on every trip she had.

Don't raise your hopes on which IM, text or emails she brings back. For all you know she'll be deleting important ones and most importantly adults don't text each other if they're staying in the same place and wanting to fvcl each other. Just a simple knock on a door will be enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel

I've been purposefully waiting to post on this again until there was more information. Thanks Harken, for a clear post this time. Sounds like she has admitted to sexual talk, but not to sexual activity. There are two possibilities.

One is that it had not yet quite been consumated. That there was sexual energy there, they knew it, admitted it, fantasized about it, but didn't yet let themselves pull the trigger on it. Very possible, actually. Some here may disagree and assume it happened. I'm not so sure.

The other is that she is testing the waters, telling you this much to gauge your reaction. If you pass the "test", she'll reveal a little more. 

At this point though, it sounds as if it only sort of matters if they actually did the deed. Sounds like you are plenty disgusted even without actual physical contact. I don't blame you one bit. It's absolutely heartbreaking to hear something like this, that your wife wanted another man.

That said, I do believe this is salvagable if she this did stay a fantasy for them. People do find others sexually attractive - it's normal. Telling the other person this when you are married to another, of course, is unacceptable and must be dealt with harshly. But through therapy, contrition and remorse, from this chair, anyway, I see some hope there.


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## happyman64

HB,

Thanks for your clearest post so far.

Your wife is taking a power trip my friend.

And it is hard to know what is the truth and what is not.

I normally do not recommend this but you should take your wife on a date.

Straight to your local lie detector specialist.

Then listen to her answers.

When you can't decipher between truth and lies then try a professional.

Then she can swear on your daughters lives.

Frankly, I do not believe her HB. I am going to find you a similar link and PM it to you.

Respectfully,

HM64


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## Harken Banks

First, I agree with Costa on AllMessedUps thread (edit- link added: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/51649-seeking-advice-2.html#post925021 ). Second, I don’t think this is a productive direction. But I have nothing to hide. Some of what AllMessedUp wrote is accurate, some is misleading.

What I did:

I helped my wife get to the place where she could somehow make sense of this. No small feat, given her character. Turns out, I am not a model man. She is responsible for her conduct. For her choices. And I am for mine. Last year, I reconnected with an old girl friend. My wife’s point would be that this is not just any old girlfriend. Big mistake in judgment. Inconsiderate.

Lots of history. We were together my last 2 years of high school and was my HTH for a couple years of college. I broke it off several times over the years. I was conflicted about how strong her feelings were and my recognition of my own lack of maturity and capacity for that level of reciprocation. We were kids. I recognized that, anyway. She is a good person and I hurt her badly several times. We went through a lot together, including an unintended and terminated pregnancy summer after I graduated HS. Hard stuff that you carry the rest of your life. And I was responsible for a lot of her pain. Through me, she became good friends with my younger sister and they remain friends today. We also continue to be friends with many of the same people. I had happened to briefly reconnect with her and go directly back right before I met my wife. I cut that off when I met my wife.

Given the history and my knowledge of how deeply flawed our relationship was, my feelings for her are mostly to be concerned and protective. Like my feelings for my little sister, who is her friend. Nothing sexual or romantic. This is someone I went through some terrible ordeals with and for whom I feel some protective responsibility. She had contacted me on Classmates a few years back. Not much exchange. Then I sent her a message on Facebook last February saying “hi.” I recognize that now as fishing. I stepped over the line. I have since freely shared the Facebook and text history with a number of people for perspective, including my counselor. Her take, “It is clear you are maintaining boundaries.” I think she is being generous. I shouldn’t have had contact at all. That is clear now. The exchanges are old friend stuff, except for her going over the line admitting she still has a crush on me and me not appropriately tamping it down and cutting it off. I enjoyed the ego stroke, primarily because she is objectively speaking quite attractive. The pattern is mostly her writing something and me getting back to her usually weeks later when she’d prompt me for a reply and I’d say sorry, been busy I’ll write when I have time. There was never any discussion of my wife or the problems we were having other than in response to her complaints about how hard it was to be single when I would say don’t kid yourself, married with children is hard, and the grass is always greener. She suggested we meet for a drink when she was in town and recognizing that was inappropriate I first said I don’t know but later when asked another time said sure. She should also have given context to my statement about the old gf being off the charts, stunningly beautiful. It was in the context of me replying to her talking about how wonderful I was and how she’d never found anyone who compares etc. I said she underestimated herself and overestimated me. Told her she needed a wake up call. Was a knock out and a good person. And should have anyone she wanted and should go out and get them –clearly in context not me. Maybe my wife will round out those quotes with the context.

I knew when she would be in town but didn’t have any specific plan to meet and ran into on a Friday afternoon. Spent about 10 mins at an outdoor restaurant in the center of town and drank half a beer and said gotta go to my daughters game, let’s try for another time when we can catch up. Plan was for me to buy her a bloody mary at another outdoor place on the water mid-morning the next day when I was running errands. Unexpected first overture from my wife in months. Now I have kept her waiting an hour and ½ and think I should buy her lunch. Dumb. Takes forever. Now I know I am going to have to explain where I was and go into fear and avoidance mode. Walk around the touristy part of town until I realize I have got to go face this. The entirety of our conversation was what had happened to high school friends and teachers. No discussion of my marriage or wife, other than to say marriage is hard. Text from her afterwords says basically “you are good citizen and dear old friend. Thanks for carving out time to catch up.” Wrong, dumb, opening doors that should remain closed. At the time I naively thought I owed a duty of loyalty to my wife and a duty of care to this person and I can reconcile them by avoiding disclosing to my wife. Wrong, unfair, dumb. But not quite as she cast it. And I was not aware of how I had hurt my wife. Dumb, but as noted in a prior post describing this episode, I saw anger, which I’m accustomed to, and not hurt. In that prior post also promised to tell this story because throughout my wife’s affair, any time I would raise concern, she would say I was being ridiculous and then go immediately launching into my relationship with this old gf. I had no idea she was so hurt until this kept coming up whenever I expressed concern about her affair.

As for the bed, she did clear space but it is still her work space and she works into all hours of the morning and then facebooks or reads. It is not a place I can rest and over the years I had grown quite accustomed to being exiled from the bed, so it was easy to stay in the basement during this stay.

And to be clear, I have said some hurtful things to her. I can be an immature jerk. I'm not blameless for the problems in the marriage prior to the affair. I think she would own the lion's share and has when we discuss it. It has been a really tough last 8 or 10 years. Lots of pain. She is tough and when we argue I'll feel like I'm not getting through because she is so much in control and there is no reaction, so I would say something over the line to see if I could break through. Never worked and I'd have said something dumb. Like "If not for the kids we would not be married” or one late night fight in March (which would be during the affair –great timing) “I want a divorce.” Sometimes I might have even felt they were true when I said them, but in the context of a fight and after where I would be hoping for the break through where we would hug and come together again and shed some coldness. Great tactic, I know. In the pattern of our fights, I become all low-brain function and lose the ability to think straight or make a meaningful point and she steels, gathers control and marshalls a list of grievances running pages long and running back years and I will be like “where did that come from?” The more she gets angry, the more she gathers control. The more I get angry the more I fall apart. I’m no match. The troubling thing about the conversation in mid-March (again, during the affair) where she said she would not marry again was that we were having a considered, calm and sober heart-to-heart. That’s what stung. I assumed she was being honest and not reactive. She asked me the same question in return and I think was surprised by how easily I answered “Absolutely.” I guess I was too.

Again, I made mistakes that should not be repeated, but I think we are venturing into the land of rationalization and defense mechanisms, another area where I am no match.


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## Harken Banks

MAybe someone can tell me how to link that to my brief post on AllMEssedUp's page.

Also, when I contacted ex gf on facebook, my exact words were "Hi. Just wanted to say hi." I knew she had been visting with my sister and asking about me feeling sad. Dumb on my part.


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## Harken Banks

Consummation of first overture by the way had to be the guestroom bed because no room in master. Hopefully, I'm done on this topic.

Reckless statements about going outside the marriage were made out of frustration with lack of intimacy. For months on end. I'm not a bad looking guy. Was hoping she'd say, well lets fix the dissatisfaction problem. Again, dumb tactic.

And, I did not say "If we don't start being intimate, I'm going to cheat." I said look, we've given eachother an exclusive and this lack of intimacy is really upsetting me. If your not into it, can we see other people." Yeah, said at a time when we were not happy with eachother, but not a threat to cheat. It was a statement to illustrate a problem and a solution I think we both saw as unacceptable.

Also, I don't mean to justify or minimize the hurt I caused my wife, though I certainly have until recently underappreciated it. I can be an immature jerk and an a**. Not a model man.

And on the ego stroke of hot ex gf coming on to me, somewhere in the back of my mind I was thinking, cool, I'll be able to show this to 2 best friends who have only known me as stressed out lawyer and dad so they'll get an idea of how cool I was before they met me. Yeah, sadly, I am about that mature. (I never did that, by the way.)

And, finally, there is no one as beautiful and attractive as my wife. So it's going to suck that much more if this does not work out. I did not do a good job of telling her that. My mistake. Another cautionary tale.


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## lovelygirl

You made your mistakes, yet they is no excuse if she's physically cheating on you.


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## I'm The Prize

I'm so sorry Harken. Trickle truth sucks! Took me a month to finally get the truth. It started with " I didn't think about how you would feel about me talking so much to another women but it was innocent conversations" to me finally getting every last disgusting detail. I hope you get every answer there is so that you can decide what to do with all of the facts as your guide. I hate that you're here. I hate that any of us are here. Best to you.


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## Unsure in Seattle

Harken-

Before we get to the main event, let's get the preliminaries out of the way...

You're obviously an intelligent cat. You seem like a good guy (from what we can tell in a limited fashion without first hand knowledge).

And, for what it's worth, I like how you post. Terse and cryptic one moment, descriptive and powerful the next. It's like a Haruki Murakami novel with somewhat less existential angst!*


I don't know if I have really any ground breaking advice for you. I was in a similar situation (no kids, tho' and that alters a lot of the dynamics) with my SO- suspicions, thoughts that nothing could be going on as she was a "good person," sadness, soul-searching, continual replays of our relationship trying to find where it had all went wrong, bitter recriminations, etc.

I suffered thru these things more than once. She was immature and, like your wife, believed that words didn't matter; they weren't real affairs. They were like fairy tales, or perhaps more accurately, movies to her- actions that made her feel good but had no real consequence, no real meaning. She wasn't physically with these other men, so what could the problem be?

Of course, she was wrong. 

In the interest of full disclosure, I don't know that our problems were ever truly solved. We're years out from the (final) d-day, and I still don't trust her 100%. I'm still (probably overly) sensitive to little things about our relationship, and I'll freely admit that there is a background dash of resentment on my part as I realize that she didnt do much heavy lifting to fix things. She's a conflict avoider; a rug-sweeper.

And so am I. In less quantity, perhaps, but there's the truth of it.

We remained together, largely because she's the queen of complacancy. And I suppose I'm complacancy's viceroy or somesuch. I like to think that I've tried hard to fix things... but what time, experience and this site have taught me is to 
stop trying so hard to (solely) fix our relaionship, and to concentrate on , if not fixing, than at least working on myself, in addition. Once that starts, the rest may fall into place.

I don't know if things will ever be 100% between us again, but I do feel like things are good enough that I'm not throwing my time away trying to shore up the foundation, if my metaphor makes sense.

However, if you find that there's not enough to salvage in your relationship, then that's okay, as well.

This whole lengthy missive exists solely to tell you two things.

1) You are not alone. For whatever reason, most of us here have suffered what you have suffered. We've been there. We've beared that cross (or are still bearing it in some cases). We've made the mistakes, we've felt the despair.

2) You will survive this. Really. You'll get past this. I don't know about your relationship; there I can make no guarantees, but I can personally state that, with or without her, YOU WILL GET THROUGH THIS. 


I'm sorry this happened to you. I'm sorry your relationship took this turn. I don't know if you can fix it or indeed, if it is worth your time to try to fix. We're all different, in that regard. If her regret and, most importantly, understanding is genuine, then you have a chance.

But the one thing we all have in common, whether we know it or not, is the ability to survive and, hopefully, evolve, even if only slightly. 

You'll get thru this. 

Best of luck to you both.



*And now I'll put my pretentious smart guy cap away


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## Zanna

You had an affair too, Harken. It was an EA. Plain and simple.

And it clearly devastated your wife. I read her post about it and the pain your EA caused was clear.

Not an excuse for her cheating though. But it's obvious when the downward spiral really began.

Can this be fixed? Yes, I believe that it can.


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## happyman64

Harken,

I read your latest posts and your wifes thread as well.

You are both intelligent. I would never would want to be married to an attorney. It is like neither of you can get the upper hand in the relationship.

And that really sucks because this is your marriage you two are negotiating for. How selfish is that of both of you.

You both need to step back. Your wife needs to take a polygraph to verify no physical affair.

Then you two need to turn off facebook, shut off your cell phones and get busy.

What do I mean by getting busy:

*
You both get the house finished!
You both get back in the same bedroom!
You both sleep in the same damn bed!
You both discuss proper boundaries and agree on them (you did both say you love each other and do not want a divorce).
*

HB stop admitting how immature you are and grow up. Be the man your wife expects and needs you to be. I understand the history you have with the old GF. I also very clearly understand why you feel the need to protect her. I have been in those same shoes. Guess what? You cannot protect her. Deal with those hurts. They do not belong in your current marriage. And neither does your old GF.

And your wife is having a little power trip of her own. I can understand that being on business trips & recent promotion. But if she really loves you she takes the polygraph, becomes completely transparent.

You both have have made mistakes. And if you are both telling the truth then you both need to grow the hell up and take responsibility for all your actions.

That responsibility includes your family!!!! Your whole family is at stake!!!

You both need MC in the worst way. You two really need to communicate with each other. And be truthful with each other.

But most importantly you need to listen to each other as well as respect each other.

That is my two cents. I hope you both have it in you to step up to the plate, work out your differences and strive for a great, strong marriage where you both want to be with each other. And oh yeah, that does include making love to each other on a daily basis. There is no excuse for not having any personal displays of affection. I know it is not easy with young kids (I have 3 daughters under the age of18) so I understand but you have to make the time for each other.

And stop talking to your close friends about your marriage troubles. Start talking to your wife. Get her to listen and give her a timeout if she does not listen. She will understand that concept with a 2 year old around.

Good Luck,

HM64


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## Harken Banks

This is a reply to Chapparal's post on AllMEssedUp's thread and Zanna's above. I have done things that I am ashamed of and embarrassed about. In hindsight it is clear that the old gf get togethers were a big factor in what has unfolded. I walked in the door from what I thought would be a quick bloody mary and became an excusably long day, I told my wife where I was and have never since had a problem talking about in as fully and long as she or anyone else wanted. Doesn't excuse my behavior, but I have no discomfort discussing it with her or anyone else. Zanna, big and deep problems in our marriage go back many years. We may not agree on the exact percentage, but I think we agree on where greater responsibility lies. Chap, I think the context of my FB statements to old gf has been distorted. You are right that there is no excuse for the over the top statements I have made when we are in ugly fights. I described some in a prior post or two. She has made some too. She is very good at hurting me too. Inappropriate on both sides, but inappropriate and hurtful things are said in arguments between spouses.


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## Harken Banks

We both appreciate all of your time and advice. This is surreal on so many levels. We just got back from a 3.5 hr trip to pick up our 8 year old from summer camp. Beautiful day, beautiful place, beautiful girl. HM64, excellent post. I still want to vomit, but not in front of the kids.


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## Harken Banks

Zanna, from the time I walked in the door and said I was with old gf, I have been an open book on old gf and willing to discuss anytime AllMessedUp wanted. I was dumb about that and looking back should have made an effort to sit down and more thoroughly hash through. I was always willing to. AllMessedUp will not disagree. The topic brings me no discomfort (after getting past my initial fear of her anger that I had been in contact and met with old gf). Maybe she wanted to and I didn't understand.

I should add, discussed at length the pregnancy and abortion with AllMessedUp on one of first trips together while dating. Knew AllMessedUp was very traditional and religious and that this might forever cast me as a heathen in her eyes. Some of you here may carry a similar experience. Keeps me up nights, infuses my dreams. I am Dorian Gray.


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## Harken Banks

Chap and Zanna, I would have done better to simply refer to my posts between 11:06 and 11:15. Those were in the moment and, looking back, I think stated my view well enough.


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## Chaparral

I think you should both work this out since both of you say you love each other and you have four girls that have the most to lose. Figuring out who hurt who the most at this point is just wasting time.

Find a really good MC, IC too if you think you need to.

Sleep together, for obvious reasons, it is the single most important thing you can do. Do what ever you have to, Messed Up, to make your work schedule during normal working hours. Bedroom is for sleep and love. Go to bed at the same time etc. No excuses, everyone else is doing it. Working at home is no excuse to be a night owl.

Here are the books you have to read. 

Love Busters

His Needs Her Needs

Five Love Languages 


For Harken:

No more Mister Nice Guy

Most important of all!!!! Married Man Sex Life ( BTW this is not a sex Manual)

Quit hurting each other. You have both done enough of this for a lifetime. Remember many people become confused about priorities in life. Although you have children, a married couple according to that most respected and oldest tome, is to put nothing and no one , including ones children, above each other and their marriage. Friends come and go, children grow up and leave. Be each others rock. Marriage is two people becoming one. Right now you are trying to do too much and leaving each other to stew in loneliness and hurt feelings, ending in betrayal and anger.

Its time to get back on track and think of each other instead of yourselves or others. Do that and everything else will fall into place.


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## Harken Banks

Chap, good post. Makes sense. If I can look past the incredible deception and betrayal, intentionally and indifferently inflicted hell, inability to trust, and nauseating imagery and knowledge that my wife has spent a lot of time at the very least and being charitable in my assumptions fantasizing about ****ing this swell guy's **** and working out plans to make it happen. I don't know how I get there.


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## AMU

Thank you, Chapparal and HappyMan64 - greatly appreciate the advice in both of your posts. And to all of you that took the time to read and render your wisdom today, I am grateful.


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## costa200

Harken Banks said:


> Chap, good post. Makes sense. If I can look past the incredible deception and betrayal, intentionally and indifferently inflicted hell, inability to trust, and nauseating imagery and knowledge that my wife has spent a lot of time at the very least and being charitable in my assumptions fantasizing about ****ing this swell guy's **** and working out plans to make it happen. I don't know how I get there.


You don't actually need to if you don't really want it. Better a D than a fake R.


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## Harken Banks

There has been an exercise in deflection and redirection here that has been predictably effective.


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## Beowulf

Harken,

Now that we have more information I want to let you know that I completely understand the pain you are experiencing. The deception is the hardest part of recovering from an affair. At this point the onus is on your wife. She must demonstrate to you to your satisfaction that she is remorseful and she must take the steps necessary to make you feel safe to be in a relationship with her. You are the judge as to whether she is accomplishing this goal. No one else. If you aren't convinced then divorce is the only option.


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## Harken Banks

With appreciation and knowing you will get it, funny about understanding the pain I am experiencing. That came up on the way back from camp. I said, no, you can't understand the pain I have been experiencing. I don't. It was in many respects worse 4 months ago when I simply could not process or function. When the world was spinning out of control and I asked for you to make it stop. That was a purgatory worse than hell. My head is a lot clearer now, so I am in a better place. Where I know the sun will rise tomorrow. But I can't now make any sense of and can't see how I ever will be able to make any sense of what I have seen and learned in the last 5 days. Only some of the things my wife new before my life became nightmare. And kept and protected for herself and AP (I prefer "sh*tburger) while she watched me fall to pieces over the destruction of our marriage and family. I can't catalog the pain, let alone understand it.


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## Harken Banks

Zanna said:


> You had an affair too, Harken. It was an EA. Plain and simple.


Zanna, please read with a critical eye.


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## Harken Banks

Also keep in mind that through 5 days ago when some of you started to get through to me I was telling all of you that you were nuts to think there was anything sexual and that I was just here for help in trying to understand the "weirdness."


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## costa200

Harken Banks said:


> There has been an exercise in deflection and redirection here that has been predictably effective.


Not really effective Harken. Your clarification tells me that you have problems defining healthy barriers but i will not say you had an EA. The reason i say this is that you have these other women throw themselves at you and you actually give them very little. You enjoyed the attention (you're guilty there man, face it) but you did not engage, contrary to what your wife did.

The two situations are not even remotely similar. Furthermore, the reason that all this pain is just being uttered now, after Dday makes me wonder how much of the reasoning is post processing (logic gerbil working: " if i'm cheating i must have a reason and that uncomfortable thing he has with that old GF is a good one) instead of a real cause. I find it very unbelievable that a woman thinks her husband is having an EA and doesn't fully blow it out of the water in no unclear terms. Specially one that pains her so much that it is now used to justify her own affair. 

And lets not forget that there are behaviors that she isn't accounting for. Like that 8 hour drive to see an old boyfriend. When she is now complaining about the little time they had together. 

To be blunt, a woman that thinks that she isn't getting enough "us" time with her husband doesn't spend 8 hours to meet an old boyfriend. 

So Harken, at least as far as i'm concerned this is how i see it. I'm generally able to spot deflections and redirections quite well.


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## Harken Banks

Thanks, Costa. The quoted text was in reference to what was happening on AllMessedUps thread and Chap and Zanna running with it.


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## Harken Banks

To be fair to AllMessedUp, I can now see she was in pain over old gf contact. Was unaware and blind to until recently.


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## costa200

> Thanks, Costa. The quoted text was in reference to what was happening on AllMessedUps thread and Chap and Zanna running with it.


Yes i'm aware of that.



Harken Banks said:


> To be fair to AllMessedUp, I can now see she was in pain over old gf contact. Was unaware and blind to until recently.


Of course she didn't like that old GF contacting you. And she was totally right! The thing is, she is now overplaying it and you know why.


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## Harken Banks

Yes. I just don't like to think that way.


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## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> To be fair to AllMessedUp, I can now see she was in pain over old gf contact. Was unaware and blind to until recently.


And I agree with you.

Your wife had a right to be upset with you perfectly understandable.

What was wrong was how she entered into an EA on a way to a PA all because she was hurt by your meetup with the old GF.

2 wrongs never make it right.

And her 4 months of lies just created more damage to your marriage.

HB, I know how emotional you are, you both are but it might not hurt to take a few steps back from all this emotion and just not discuss her Affair for the weekend.

Some times you need to take a break from the trauma. Just to rest and meditate.

Just a suggestion.


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## Harken Banks

HM64, I feel like we are coming full circle to counselor Bob.


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## Will_Kane

*There has been an exercise in deflection and redirection here that has been predictably effective.*

You are getting off track.

She agreed to take a polygraph. Let her set it up and take it.

In the polygraph, have them ask about whether your wife and other man ever had sex, whether she ever masturbated while thinking about him, whether she ever sent him a naked picture, whether she ever bought him a gift, whether he ever bought her a gift, whether she ended contact with him when she claimed, etc. Pick out the most important questions for you and have them ask her those.

Have her handwrite a no contact letter to the other man. In the letter, she should state how horribly ashamed she is of her behavior, how terrible she feels that she risked losing her family and her husband, who means more to her than anything in the world, and that if other man ever tries to contact her again in any way, shape, or form, she will file harassment charges against him. She gives the letter to you for editing and mailing.

She got your friends involved in this, asking them to give you an intervention - is that correct? If so, have her handwrite a letter to these friends spelling out how she lied to you over the past four months and made you feel you were crazy for suspecting anything. She gives the letter to you for editing and mailing.

Tell her she has to leave the company where other man still works. She should start looking for a new job immediately.

Find out if other man is married or has a girlfriend independently of what your wife told you. If he is, expose the affair to his wife/girlfriend. Consider exposing to his friends/family, asking them for their help to end the affair. I recommend this because your wife was in deep, she and other man are not going to give this up that easily. Maybe she has not been in contact since Monday, but she wants to contact him and he wants to contact her. He has nothing to lose by doing so. So expose to friends and family if he is not married or has a girlfriend. Let him feel the pain and wonder whether you will expose to the employer.

Tell her you need complete access to all her communication devices and accounts and she must account for her whereabouts 24/7. Block him where possible. Ask her to give up any devices/accounts that you find particularly painful for you, at least until she can earn back some of your trust.

When you are ready, return to the bedroom. Never again should you have to sleep elsewhere because her "work" has taken over your bedroom.

Apologize again for the past incident with the ex-girlfriend that your wife has now re-surfaced. Offer to block the ex-girlfriend on any accounts/devices where that is possible, and offer to handwrite a no contact letter to the ex-girlfriend who, after all, did come on to you.


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## Harken Banks

costa200 said:


> Yes i'm aware of that.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course she didn't like that old GF contacting you. And she was totally right! The thing is, she is now overplaying it and you know why.


I should read more carefully. Thanks.


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## Harken Banks

Old man, if you are lurking, you know how to reach me. I value your insights.


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## Acabado

> What was wrong was how she entered into an EA on a way to a PA all because she was hurt by your meetup with the old GF.


She didn't have a revenge affair. I don't buy for a minute she thought you were having an affair with this GF. She's blameshifting. End off. Your wife is not different in this than most cheaters. She did it because she enjoyed it, so much she gave sh!t about marital boundaries and her own self respect, because she though she would never found out and she could get away with it. She never though about divorcing you or leaving you for this man or any other.
All bad behavior, particulary affairs, must be justified in the perpetrator's mind, unless you are a complete sociopath in which case no justification is needed. So in that sense she had and affiar out of revenge. All affairs are a passive agresive gigantic f0ck you (wich also was an f0ck it all). No doubt about it. For all the small and major things you did TO her, since the beginning of your marriage, for failing to make her happy as she deserves, for failing to make possible the script in her head about what her life was supposed to be at this point.

She still needs to own her stuff. Of course it starts being honest with herself instead of react defensively and then humble enough to be so with you.

Unless she stop trying to defend this in any whay shape or form ther's no way to fix whatever marriage issues you have.


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## I'm The Prize

Harken, I know the difference between "I made a mistake in judgement but checked myself" that leads to "honey, I was stupid today and I want to tell you about it" and an EA. You were flattered but didn't engage or encourage. Plus, you immediately fessed up. Your wife not only didn't volunteer the info she keep lying and stonewalling repeatedly. Not the same. Do not let her use that as justification. It's no better than "you won't have sex with me when I want, I'm hurt, so you caused me to cheat". Nothing causes affairs but selfishness.


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## Zanna

Harken Banks said:


> Zanna, please read with a critical eye.


I believe that I am.

You lied about seeing your ex-GF prior to the time you admitted to. Admitted you enjoyed the ego stroke. Your wife did not know about 8 months of contact. What shall we call it then?

There is hurt on both sides.

Does that excuse her cheating? No. That is not what I am saying at all.

But I am saying that boundaries need to be established on both sides. I'm not one to stand up for a WS and that's not what i'm doing but I am saying that you need to listen to her as well.

My H had an affair. He was 100% to blame for that choice. Always will be. But when he explained how that he felt unappreciated and unloved prior, that was something that needed to change going forward.

My point is that for R, she needs to have her feelings heard as well.

If she uses what happend with your ex-GF to blame you for her affair, well then that is not acceptable.

But affairs don't happen in a vacuum. Unless we're talking about serial cheaters. I don't understand those types at all.


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## OldWolf57

Don't know if I'm the Old man, but what I see is two ppl that know they messed up, but love each other and wants to stay together. Not only for the kids, but for that very love of each other.

HB, it won't be easy, but that PURE girl you met with the bows in her hair is still there !!!! Yes in your eyes she is damaged goods, but the poly should settle that BIG ? of PA.
They txed and emailed, no where did she say they CAMMED. You see where I'm going ?? YOU are still the only man to KNOW her. You are still the only man that have seen her bare NAKED body.
The years of wreckage, coupled with you telling her YOU don't love her. And want a D goes deep man. Make no mistake about that !! Some say it don't excuse her, and I do too. She could have left. Then old gf appear again. AGAIN, no excuse, but knowing your past with her, without knowing about the abortion, I can see her reeling when you saying you want to D and not loving her. I may have the time lines out of order, but blame urself, with all your convoluted prose, hahahaha, lil levity there. I know I know very lil. But back on subject. Focusing on your betrayal, and who did the worst is USELESS. I don't agree with others who say she did worst. I would say its even. GF asked to hookup sexually, wife read it. Case of pot calling kettle, POINTLESS.

So ask yourself, and be honest. Do you Love your wife and WANT to Stay marrid to her ??? If yes, then DO. JUST DO. DO means letting go of the pain and pics. If you have reads some threads, then you know many have beenhurt WAYYYYYYYY worst. I think ur problem is you seeing her as being tainted. I can tell you, she's NOT!! Yes she was deceitful during MC and it makes it false R. But YOU is STILL the only man that has seen her naked. The EA is hard to get pass, but I have some faith that you can. AND no I'm not trying to downplay ur emotional destruction during that period, but there will have to come a time that you have to decide if you want to fight for YOUR WOMAN.

On another side subject, HB, deflections and downplaying by her was her defence for the shame and guilt. It goes hand in hand with how she handled ur arguments. You would get more and more emotional, and she would get in your mind more clinical. Thats what makes her such a good lawyer. She cover her emotional breaks with clinical responses. Yeah its maddening, when you trying to get an emotional response. Been there done that. So accept it and hope that she is changing after reading your posts.
I want you guys to just stop hurting each other and commit. Commit to NOT letting the past destroy the future.

AllMessedUp: Good luck Lady. I PRAY you have told all. Yeah I believe you. PLZ, don't let me be wrong. We have a member who's wife is leaving the marriage, after being on here and going thru R. She didn't have the emotional fortitude to endure his moods swings, and he never recognized those moments when she needed ust a touch to carry her through. PLZ, don't let this be you guys. If you need just a touch or hug, tell him. Don't leave any pauses anywhere. Fight for this man and marriage. I also have faith that you can do it. Yeah, there will be times when he will be emotionally distant, plz, recognize this as mind movies, so even if he don't want you to, just hug him. Tell him you are NOT going to let him fight this alone and wallow in it.

GOD Bless and Good Luck to you BOTH !!


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## Harken Banks

costa200 said:


> And lets not forget that there are behaviors that she isn't accounting for. Like that 8 hour drive to see an old boyfriend. When she is now complaining about the little time they had together.
> 
> To be blunt, a woman that thinks that she isn't getting enough "us" time with her husband doesn't spend 8 hours to meet an old boyfriend.


Thanks for your post. There was more going on than wanting to see an old friend. I am responsible for some of that. To my knowledge and belief, the trip to [city 2 hours away] did not happen. 8 hours describes 2 hours to drive down, .5hr (lawyer!) to park and get to point of meeting, 3 hrs to have lunch, catch up, 2.5 hrs to get back to car and return home. The place is not 8 hrs away. Thought I should clarify.


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## Harken Banks

Emoticons are among my triggers. I hate 'em. Anyone else?


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## anonymouskitty

What does this button do?


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## Harken Banks

anonymouskitty said:


> What does this button do?


Love it! My wife's affair was started with a text master. I will forever regard it as the shallowest form of communication.


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## Harken Banks

I even started texting, to my wife even, to demonstrate that I could be cool too. I am such a dork.


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## lordmayhem

Harken Banks said:


> Emoticons are among my triggers. I hate 'em. Anyone else?


Not here. But I take it your WW used a lot of emoticons when sending her text messages to the OM? No wonder its a trigger for you.


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## TDSC60

Harken Banks said:


> Love it! My wife's affair was started with a text master. I will forever regard it as the shallowest form of communication.


I agree. For the life of me I cannot understand the addiction to text messaging. Instant gratification? You cannot see the other person, you cannot hear inflections in their voice. 

My daughter spends so many hours texting. I asked her why don't you just call the person and talk to them. She just stared at me with a blank look on her face.


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## lordmayhem

TDSC60 said:


> I agree. For the life of me I cannot understand the addiction to text messaging. Instant gratification? You cannot see the other person, you cannot hear inflections in their voice.
> 
> My daughter spends so many hours texting. I asked her why don't you just call the person and talk to them. She just stared at me with a blank look on her face.


Without going too far off topic, I just have to say that I text a lot. It's impersonal, more convenient, and more permanent than a phone conversation. With texting being more impersonal, you're able to say things that would probably be more embarassing than if it was a personal phone call. And with a personal phone call, you actually have to remember what was said, but with texting, you can go back to the text. 

Not trying to start a debate between texting and calling, just saying that people who do text, find it convenient.


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## Will_Kane

*For the life of me I cannot understand the addiction to text messaging.*

For one thing, you're always able to present a better side of yourself. You have a moment to think before replying, to come up with a better, quicker reply. Easier to lie. "_I'm sitting here in my nightie touching myself and thinking of you_" can be texted even while you're making lunch for the kids; wouldn't be the same if spoken over the phone while a kid is in the background yelling "_Mom, I need more ketchup!_")

Also, it is silent, and thus easier to hide the content from those listening.


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## I'm The Prize

Will_Kane said:


> *For the life of me I cannot understand the addiction to text messaging.*
> 
> For one thing, you're always able to present a better side of yourself. You have a moment to think before replying, to come up with a better, quicker reply. Easier to lie. "_I'm sitting here in my nightie touching myself and thinking of you_" can be texted even while you're making lunch for the kids; wouldn't be the same if spoken over the phone while a kid is in the background yelling "_Mom, I need more ketchup!_")
> 
> Also, it is silent, and thus easier to hide the content from those listening.


My FWH found the silence to be great for texting when he was supposed to be asleep in the next room. Would have drawn attention if he was talking instead (he doesn't have a volume control for his mouth).


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## warlock07

Why do you think they are lies ?


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## Shaggy

Google ploygraphs + your city. Call them tomorrow and make an appointment:

#1 question - did you have sex with X.


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## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> AllMessedUp continues to lie as she tells me for the 3rd or 4th time it is over and she has come clean. And, I just re-read her intial post. How many lies are contained in this small clip
> (which differs from other ways in which I have heard it)?
> 
> “After a night of casino games and playing pool with a number of colleagues, four of us decided to call it a night and head back to our rooms. It was a resort with various buildings and I was staying in the same complex as one of the guys. As we were heading into our rooms, he asked whether I wanted to talk out by the beach since it was such a nice night. I said sure and headed through my room and out the back door to the beach (he went through his own room), but as I walked out back I began to worry a little that he might assume the wrong idea, so when we went out to the Adirondack chairs right behind the rooms, I intentionally left an open chair between us. I had also learned earlier that evening that his divorce was almost finalized after his wife of 25 years had an affair and left, knew he was hurt by that so I felt he wouldn’t be stupid enough to make a move.”


I give up what. I don't recall three or four versions. Are there substantive differences? I don't recall there being a chair between them when you wrote it. The problem with asking for more and more details is that memories are fallible. Four of us just left a home show. We all agreed when we were in house number 7 that this one had the best decorator out of only ten houses. An hour later none of us could agree which house it was. We had to look in the program to see the name of the designer to match up with a business card we picked up so we could vote.

I hope, but doubt, you communicate with your wife more clearly than you do with us.


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## Harken Banks

Today's lies are important only for the fact that they are still being made. I read that snippet of text again, and it varies from other descriptions of the night I have heard. I do not believe any contact happened that night, but I have been wrong before. What strikes me is language like "he asked whether I wanted to talk out by the beach since it was such a nice night," "but as I walked out back I began to worry a little that he might assume the wrong idea," and "I intentionally left an open chair between us. I had also learned earlier that evening that his divorce was almost finalized after his wife of 25 years had an affair and left, knew he was hurt by that so I felt he wouldn’t be stupid enough to make a move." 

Again, "I am not naive, just naive." This is my married wife with 4 kids. What is the "wrong idea." That within days we'd be having explicit sexual conversations and planning to meet in hotel rooms? It seems clear to me, AllMessedUp went out there because it was curiously interesting and a little exciting to go to see what would happen. Look what happened.


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## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> I hope, but doubt, you communicate with your wife more clearly than you do with us.


We interact more. We spent all day together. It was nice. I trust you more.


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## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> That within days we'd be having explicit sexual conversations and planning to meet in hotel rooms? It seems clear to me, AllMessedUp went out there because it was curiously interesting and a little exciting to go to see what would happen. Look what happened.


So how many days exactly did the sexting take place after the "initial" meeting?

One poster here was professing undying love after 10 days. Just saying. Things can move very rapidly.


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## Harken Banks

Sexting, I don't know. Explicit sexual conversations, 5 or 6 days. First night of the next time she left town. Discovering more and recent lies tonight which go to some fundamental trust issues, I called her on those and then read her first post. All of it is so couched in denial. I told her I thought so. She said she went out because it was nice to chat. And it was weird. Why? Because I was married. I said basically what I wrote above. I think you went out because it seemed interesting to see what would happen. The AllMessedUp I knew would have said, enjoy the beach, maybe I'll see you on the way out tomorrow.


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## Harken Banks

My point is that she emphatically, repeatedly, and unwaiveringly denies my take. As she did back in March.


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## happyman64

HB,
We all wish our WS's said what we expected them to say. If they did, we would not be here.

And I understand your trust of your wife being low right now.

The poly is an option.

Be glad you headed this crap off at the pass my friend before it could go any further.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> My point is that she emphatically, repeatedly, and unwaiveringly denies my take. As she did back in March.


I am not following what lies you have found. Perhaps you could state what she initially said and then juxtapose the new version. Are these important details?


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## Harken Banks

The details are not important except in that they point out that first post is fiction and the conversations point to out lack of candor as to why go to the beach. I am coming to the end of accepting implausibilities.

Thanks HM64 and Chap. You are good supporters. To both of us. To me, it seems deception and denial continue.


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## Harken Banks

I think it would be better and we could work on it and move forward if she said "Yeah, I did that. I don't know what I was thinking."


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## Harken Banks

I am about to delete the last several posts. The dynamic changed when my wife discovered this place and to her credit entered the lion's den. That was brave.


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## Chaparral

She doesn't know you are doubting her? Didn't she offer to take a poly?


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## Harken Banks

Shoot. Just learned that I can only delete my own posts. My intent was to take down everything after I Am the Prize. I took my first post after. All of you are right that we should work these things out between eachother. But I have learned that trying to work things out with a spouse involved in an affair is like trying to swim up a waterfall.


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## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> She doesn't know you are doubting her? Didn't she offer to take a poly?


She did. And I believe she is sincere in her regret. Just not honest with me.

How many on this board have taken or had their spouses take poly? You have seen my distaste for any sort of inquisition or intrusiveness. To me, poly seems next to waterboarding. Appropriate in some situations, but not something I want to subject my wife to. Wish it was as easy as you're my spouse, I will be faithful to and honest with you. If it's not, what is the point?


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## Chaparral

Well, if I couldn't figure out what I believed and my marriage/family were riding on it I might require the poly as a last resort. I just can't figure out where you are and where you're headed.


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## Will_Kane

*Wish it was as easy as you're my spouse, I will be faithful to and honest with you. If it's not, what is the point?* 

Many, if not most, who try to work it out, do it largely for the kids. And if they're going to try to make a go of it for the kids, they decide they might as well do so with a spouse who is not still cheating on them or lying to them. Your spouse's affair is something you may forgive, but you will never forget, and you will never have the same feeling of you two being able to handle whatever life throws at you, knowing that at least you'll always have each other.


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## Harken Banks

Thanks for that Will. I had been hoping there might be an after.


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## Will_Kane

Harken, reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know. And it is the latter category that tend to be the difficult ones.


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## Acabado

This will end when she break the defenses and start owning her stuff. She's still in damage control/ego protection mode. Not necessary consciously. Your strong reaction after learning the "whole" truth yesterday so to speak, solidify even more the defense mechanism.

Maybe after you cool down a little... have her read the Joseph letter or rewrite it to make it yours.


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## Harken Banks

This responds to Kitty and Satchel (edit- link added: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/51649-seeking-advice-6.html#post930549 ). I'm posting here trying to stay out of her space as much as I can. All honest comments and observations are always appreciated. Thank you, both. Satchel, I agree with some of what you wrote and can't rule out the rest. I am aware that again and again I have left myself too open throughout this process, and I may be doing that again. There is nothing to be gained and much to be lost from further bs-ing and I am giving my wife credit for being smart enough (she is very smart) to understand that and that the lies and inconsistencies eventually surface and the ongoing lying and deceit become a bigger problem, for everyone, than whatever is lied about, which is usually pretty horrible to start. 

To both of you, and primarily in response to Kitty's post on AllMessedUp’s thread:

She didn't have to come here. Knew she would face harsh words and hard and painful truths if she stuck around. So far she has. She did it because she wants to save the marriage, so it's not entirely selfless. On what terms, I am not at this time able to know for sure, so it’s not clear how honest -I have recently become painfully aware that I have been wrong so many times before on this in the last 5 months, that I just can’t know. But in any event, here being here, telling her story, and responding to your questions and comments allows insight into the thinking of the WS. It is also worth noting that it was in reading through the threads on this site, especially threads and comments of the few other WSs here, that AllMessedUp seems to have begun to see through the fog. To see herself and her affair from outside of her own perspective. It hasn’t been easy for her. It has been difficult and painful. But it is a part of a necessary process if our marriage is to survive. I hope it will. It may not. She owes it to me and to any chance we have as husband and wife in any event. Look, I’m still pissed and not at taking anything at face. But we really ought to recognize what she and other WSs contribute here.


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## anonymouskitty

A painful situation brought on by one's own stupidity will be painful to confront however you look at it. I give her credit for coming here. All I'm saying Harken is that going through some of her posts, I sense that she really isn't remorseful. Now, that might not be the case. But we've had more than one WS pull the wool not only on her BS but also on the people of this forum

Remember Allybabe anyone?

Now, you know what your problem is mate? Your acting like a big security blanket around her protecting her from THE TRUTH.
Thats the thing, you need to let her fight her own battles and confront her own issues rather than trying to minimize the impact. She'll respect you more for that.


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## Harken Banks

anonymouskitty said:


> .
> Thats the thing, you need to let her fight her own battles and confront her own issues rather than trying to minimize the impact. She'll respect you more for that.


Maybe in this place I need to do that. I have a protective instinct. It has not always served me well. I take your point. We'll see what I do with it.


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## Affaircare

Harken~

I posted over on AMU's thread, but I also wanted you to know I have been thinking about and wanting to write to both you and AMU. I'll do my best to see if I can get your post done right now. But I wanted you (both) to know that in my first marriage my ex left me for his mistress so I was the loyal spouse, and I can honestly say it almost killed me. To my eternal regret, in my second marriage I was the disloyal spouse, and I even knew about infidelity, knew better, and was the kind of person almost everyone would say "She would NEVER do that"...and I did. So I have personal experience on both sides. It is my observation that many of the people who write here on CWI are loyal spouses trying to deal with it, and very few are disloyal spouses who are trying to save their marriage after they were the one who destroyed it! So I'm going to "hang out" about 95% here and do my best to work with and talk to AMU. From you, Harken, I think I will mostly point out one thing, and then if you would I'll leave you to think about it. 

Remember when all this started (here on TAM) how you wrote and listed the events that had occurred but you did not yet have an proof one way or another if it even WAS an affair? And many, many people replied and said "It definitely IS an emotional affair!"...and sure enough a few days later your found proof that it was at least emotional and possibly physical. Okay...keep that feeling in mind right there. 

Holding onto that, let's look at your affair. Now just to be clear, I personally believe it is unfaithfulness to give anything less than 100% of your affection an loyalty to your spouse. I also think it's unfaithfulness to have any of your needs met by a person other than your spouse. Soooo...bearing in mind the events leading up to definitive discovery, the confusion about whether it was or was not physical, and my definitions above...let's take a look. 

One of the things you mention or allude to in your writing is the minimization and lack of complete honesty that you've been receiving from AMU...and yet regarding your own EA that somehow managed to "slip your memory" and you didn't mention it. I bring that up not to judge or blame you, but in hopes that you'd maybe gain some sympathy or compassion for a fellow human being--your wife--who did the same thing. My guess is that in the hurt of thinking maybe your wife was cheating that your own indiscretion seemed irrelevant; after all in your head you know what did and did not go on and it was relatively trivial. But SHE did not know in HER head what went on or why...SHE was not there, did not read all the texting and FB IM'ing, and that "not knowing" was excruciatingly painful and drove her nuts (not insane, but rather "messed with her mind"). Yet since you knew what did or did not go on, what did you do? You minimized it. Some part of you realized "Whoops this was not appropriate behavior for a married man" so you spoke up and insisted it was less than it was...and from your very writing and even responses now some time later, it seems that is what you've come to believe! "It was nothing" Yet again, I point this out to you because this is exactly the tactic your own wife is taking. She knows what did or did not occur, just like you knew. She even knows it was relatively trivial because she was there. BUT YOU DO NOT. See the similarity there? (And again, I'm not saying it's exactly the same, but the aim is for understanding.) 

Ideally you would love for her to tell you every single little thing that occurred and give you PROOF--like evidence in a court of law proof--of what did or did not occur. She has all the pieces of the puzzle and is afraid of the picture on the puzzle, because the picture on the puzzle is embarrassing. Likewise you had all the pieces of the puzzle for your EA and did not like the picture of you being unfaithful because it was embarrassing. So you kept some pieces, didn't tell her the extent of the chatting, and slowly over time she found out...and 8 months is a LONG TIME!! How would you feel if you continued to gradually find things out slowly? It would most likely drive you NUTS right? And that is what you did to your wife, and due to your own embarrassment over what occurred, you let her feel that and then minimized it. 

SOOOOOO...again (and yet again) I am not telling you this to say that her affair is justified because you had an affair first. That kind of thinking has just GOT TO GO!!! You are a fully grown, mature, adult male and what you choose to do is YOUR CHOICE and YOUR RESPONSIBILITY (same for her). No one "made" you do it unless they put a gun to your head, and so far I haven't heard of any weaponry.  However, if you did have an affair, and you did speak to another woman for 8 months, and it was flattering to have someone profess continued interest in you, and you missed feeling like you were interesting and desired to someone... what I'm asking is for you to sort of consider that it was somewhat similar to the place at which your wife found herself too. And if you recognized it was wrong but enjoyed feeling a little hunky, and you didn't immediately put up a protection to someone else other than your spouse meeting your need (because at the time you did not know better), and if you went a little too far with it and then realized it was definitely wrong, and then told PART of the truth to your wife at a time as well as minimizing what happened "so it wouldn't hurt her"...what I'm asking is for you to sort of consider that it was somewhat similar to the place at which your wife found herself too.

Then by way of a challenge, if you will, part of you wants HER to step up to the plate and be brave, and prove to you what did or did not happen...and as a mature individual she did make the choice to engage in these activities and due to the vow she made to "forsake all others" she does owe that to you to clean up her side of the street and very clearly demonstrate that she LOVES you and she MEANS it. But I challenge you to consider that you are also a mature individual and you did make the choice to engage in those activities and due to the vow you make her to "forsake all others" you do owe that to her to clean up your side of the street too and very clearly demonstrate that you LOVE her and you MEAN it. 

And right here is where that "well you did it first" mentality has got to go!! You are responsible for cleaning up your side of the street whether she does or not. The bad behavior of one spouse does not justify the bad behavior of the other spouse. If she is raging and resorts to name-calling (I'm not saying she does...it's just an example) then that does not justify you raging and calling names back! If you both do that it just means that you both CHOSE to do that!! So you made the choice to allow another woman to enter your life and meet some needs of affection and loyalty. You made that choice and whether or not AMU comes around or not, you are responsible to deal with and clean up the explosion and damage your actions did to your marriage. 

Here is my request--and yep it is a request. You are free to say "no" or to offer an alternative that would be okay with you. I request that rather than looking at your wife and trying to figure out what she did and mini psycho-analyzing why she did it and putting your energies into fixing HER...that you change your perspective to you. Try to focus on reaching some understanding because you yourself have "been there done that." Try to extend a little mercy just as it seems she extended you a little mercy and did not leave you then and there! Try to be honest with yourself, look in the mirror, and say "I'm going to deal with the things I did first and clean up my side of the street...and I'm going to let AMU deal with and work on and clean up her own side of the street."

P.S. After this I'll likely be hanging with AMU because as I pointed out there are several pretty knowledgeable, trustworthy Loyal Spouses here who can give you some wise counsel, but there are fewer Disloyal Spouse who "got it" and can help AMU "get it" and work effectively to save the marriage. I'll reply here, don't get me wrong--just wanted you to know I'd be focusing over there for her.


----------



## Harken Banks

Thanks for the long and thoughtful response. At first blush, I see a lot of false equivalence. I'll go through more carefully when I have time. She has all the communication between me and old gf and from the moment I walked in from mowing the lawn I have never shied from talking about it. I was wrong and inconsiderate and there is no excuse. I am not uncomfortable discussing to any length and depth the topic and substance of my communications and conversations with old gf (10 mins Thurs at outdoor in the park restaurant before soccer game, lunch and bloodies at outdoor waterfront restaurant then walk around scenic touristy part of town where we grew up (Sat), then coffee for 10 or 15 mins on the day she left town, a Monday. I will reread and consider your post. I don't agree, but I'll try to keep an open mind. As I wrote in a series of earlier posts in response to this topic, which I invite you to read if you have not http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray-18.html#post925195 http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray-18.html#post925218 , I think this is rationalization and deflection and in any event not an equivalent situation. Wrong, dumb, hurtful, not to be repeated. And not remotely the same. I think this line takes us off topic. You are not wrong that I was wrong and that if we are to get through this and stay together we are going to have to do a lot better at being good and loyal spouses to eachother. I am not minimizing the hurt I caused my wife. That appears to be very real.


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## Harken Banks

Affaircare said:


> Harken~
> 
> Here is my request--and yep it is a request. You are free to say "no" or to offer an alternative that would be okay with you. I request that rather than looking at your wife and trying to figure out what she did and mini psycho-analyzing why she did it and putting your energies into fixing HER...that you change your perspective to you. Try to focus on reaching some understanding because you yourself have "been there done that." Try to extend a little mercy just as it seems she extended you a little mercy and did not leave you then and there! Try to be honest with yourself, look in the mirror, and say "I'm going to deal with the things I did first and clean up my side of the street...and I'm going to let AMU deal with and work on and clean up her own side of the street."


I appreciate the time you have taken and apparent concern. I don't think you have a very good grasp of the situations.


----------



## Affaircare

I am interpreting your response to mean "I do not intend to look at myself or focus on cleaning up my side of the street. Her affair is so big that I don't need to work/focus on my own self...my focus will be only on her and fixing her." Is that how you meant it? 

Because here's the thing. When I wrote I completely understand that I am not there and may not have all the facts straight. But the goal of the post was twofold: 1) see if you can understand what happened and why considering something similar also happened to you (in other words, expressing some empathy maybe?) and 2) to shift your focus from "She did this" and "She did that" to "Hmm...well maybe I do have a thing or two I need to work on and I'll put my energy into that and let her put her energy into herself." 

Based on your response, it sounds like you are not willing to look at yourself and clean up your side. If you are not willing to do that, I am curious why you hold your wife to an expectation to which you will not not hold yourself? And if you are willing to do that, may I ask for a clarification or correction?


----------



## Harken Banks

Affaircare said:


> Harken~
> 
> How would you feel if you continued to gradually find things out slowly?
> 
> 
> 
> That did not happen with the old gf situation. Yes, I had private facebook messages over 8 months, but I wasn't hiding them. I half suspected my wife checked out my stuff periodically anyway, and didn't care. There is even a statement to that effect in my FB messages with old gf. I sent a total of 34 messages over 8 months. Should have been zero. But for the sake of some clarity, some of those messages were links to public picture albums (sailing trip) with no text, some to music with no text, some one or two liners, some pargraphs. Often with weeks passing between messages until old gf would prompt me for a response.
> 
> There was no trikcle truth. As soon as I came in from tractoring I was open to discuss this any time at any length.
> 
> 
> 
> Affaircare said:
> 
> 
> 
> However, if you did have an affair, and you did speak to another woman for 8 months, and it was flattering to have someone profess continued interest in you, and you missed feeling like you were interesting and desired to someone.
> 
> 
> 
> No. I don't have that insecurity. I thought it was cool but at the same time unfortunate that totally hot old gf thought I was a rock star. Seriously, as previously posted, I thought sh*t I should show 2 best friends how cool I was. That's not necessarily ok, but it's not what you wrote.
> 
> I realize you are trying to be helpful. This is not the right tact.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Harken Banks

Affaircare said:


> I am interpreting your response to mean "I do not intend to look at myself or focus on cleaning up my side of the street. Her affair is so big that I don't need to work/focus on my own self...my focus will be only on her and fixing her." Is that how you meant it?
> 
> Because here's the thing. When I wrote I completely understand that I am not there and may not have all the facts straight. But the goal of the post was twofold: 1) see if you can understand what happened and why considering something similar also happened to you (in other words, expressing some empathy maybe?) and 2) to shift your focus from "She did this" and "She did that" to "Hmm...well maybe I do have a thing or two I need to work on and I'll put my energy into that and let her put her energy into herself."
> 
> Based on your response, it sounds like you are not willing to look at yourself and clean up your side. If you are not willing to do that, I am curious why you hold your wife to an expectation to which you will not not hold yourself? And if you are willing to do that, may I ask for a clarification or correction?


Sure. Ask for all you want. Maybe it will help. At the moment, your predicates are fallacious.


----------



## DailyGrind

Harken Banks said:


> Affaircare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Harken~
> 
> How would you feel if you continued to gradually find things out slowly?
> 
> 
> 
> That did not happen with the old gf situation. Yes, I had private facebook messages over 8 months, but I wasn't hiding them. I half suspected my wife checked out my stuff periodically anyway, and didn't care. There is even a statement to that effect in my FB messages with old gf. I sent a total of 34 messages over 8 months. Should have been zero. But for the sake of some clarity, some of those messages were links to public picture albums (sailing trip) with no text, some to music with no text, some one or two liners, some pargraphs. Often with weeks passing between messages until old gf would prompt me for a response.
> 
> There was no trikcle truth. As soon as I came in from tractoring I was open to discuss this any time at any length.
> 
> 
> 
> No. I don't have that insecurity. I thought it was cool but at the same time unfortunate that totally hot old gf thought I was a rock star. Seriously, as previously posted, I thought sh*t I should show 2 best friends how cool I was. That's not necessarily ok, but it's not what you wrote.
> 
> I realize you are trying to be helpful. This is not the right tact.
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, Harkin...she did NOT know of 8 months of correspondence.  And you did NOT provide the information, until AFTER you basically got caught staying away too long. Now, I understand your hurt and pain...but am stymied why you feel your situation is markedly so much better than hers. In her eyes, there were lies (from lack of divulging) and possible physical interaction. THAT cast the seed of doubt, which as you already know, can be quite devastating.
> 
> Now, I am in no way saying she was justified. But it does give me pause that you holding AMU's hands to the fire, for her minimizations ...while doing the same yourself. Great...you didn't sext the woman. Geez...I'd be WAY upset with my spouse sending special links to meaningful songs, and movies....and not nixing the loving texts cast her way....even if she didn't respond in kind. Do yourself a favor, and try looking at it through HER eyes. And your explanation for the lunch???? Because your W inconvenienced you with a physical advance. Because of that, you were late...and therefore decided to lie, and stay out later with an old GF?? Can you even imagine what that explanation sounds like to her ears??
> 
> I wouldn't want to waste your time with asking you to read my thread...it is very long. My wife didn't go as far as yours did, but I got to know pain. That being said.....the key to OUR coming back together, was....A) I through a wrench in her developing EA (as have you); and B) I addressed MY issues, so she no longer was able to add fuel to her resentments. Are we perfect now? Nope. But....we have a MUCH stronger marriage now, than we ever did. I emplore you to address your own issues, as well. Being self-righteous, and RIGHT.....may not keep you warm during the coming Winter months.
> 
> Sorry if this comes across as harsh. I've not posted on your thread previously (I don't think). But, since you started posting, you've had a consistent habit of discounting almost every advice offered you. Maybe it is the lawyer in you...but stop focusing on each word....and listen to the overall content of the advice. It's been good stuff.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Harken Banks

Daily grind, thanks. I'll try to read yours. Two wrongs. No doubt. I reconnected with old gf and opened doors that should have remained closed. Except for the I love you and you set the bar very high stuff from her in a couple of FB messages, the content was pure old friend stuff. I was away from here for 15 years after HS and she had been in town a lot of those years and our conversation the day of bloodies and lunch was what happened to our high school friends. It was absolutely wrong for me to have any private conversation with old gf. It was unfaithfullness to my wife because I knew she would not like the contact and I tried to do it without her knowing. I have learned a lot. There was and is no excitement or romantic or sexual component. Again, I go back to this is someone I went through HS and a lot of really, really hard stuff with. I feel some protective responsibility. My loyalty to my wife crowds out any inconsistent relationship and I should have recognized that. I do now. I have known that for some time. Now, to why we are here: My wife made a hard run after and engaged in a sexual affair.


----------



## Harken Banks

And has been lying flat out to my face about it for 5 months in response to very direct and reasonable questions. Have you read the thread. First few pages should cover it. I learned yesterday about how many times and for how many months she lied to me about no contact while the nightly phone calls continued.


----------



## SomedayDig

Harken Banks said:


> And has been lying flat out to my face about it for 5 months in response to very direct and reasonable questions. Have you read the thread. First few pages should cover it. I learned yesterday about how many times and for how many months she lied to me about no contact while the nightly phone calls continued.


Ugggg...I f'ng hate the trickle truth crap.

I'm going to try not to get into the whole "you did/she did" thing here. You both know what you did wrong. It's simply time that if you truly want to reconcile that each of you understands that honesty today might hurt a bit, but a lie...ANY lie will hurt much, much longer.


----------



## Harken Banks

DailyGrind said:


> Harken Banks said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Affaircare said:
> 
> 
> 
> Harken~
> 
> In her eyes, there were lies (from lack of divulging) and possible physical interaction.
> 
> 
> 
> Um, no. Please. I know it's a long thread. Ths line is so far afield. I was wrong. I hurt my wife. I was inconsiderate and insensitive. All well understood. Stop with the "why is what she did any worse than what you did." AllMessedUp is to this day quite and justifiably pissed off about the old gf stuff and will probably remain so until her dying day. But this line we are now on is running way off base.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## DailyGrind

Harken Banks said:


> Daily grind, thanks. I'll try to read yours. Two wrongs. No doubt. I reconnected with old gf and opened doors that should have remained closed. Except for the I love you and you set the bar very high stuff from her in a couple of FB messages, the content was pure old friend stuff. I was away from here for 15 years after HS and she had been in town a lot of those years and our conversation the day of bloodies and lunch was what happened to our high school friends. It was absolutely wrong for me to have any private conversation with old gf. It was unfaithfullness to my wife because I knew she would not like the contact and I tried to do it without her knowing. I have learned a lot. There was and is no excitement or romantic or sexual component. Again, I go back to this is someone I went through HS and a lot of really, really hard stuff with. I feel some protective responsibility. My loyalty to my wife crowds out any inconsistent relationship and I should have recognized that. I do now. I have known that for some time. Now, to why we are here: My wife made a hard run after and engaged in a sexual affair.


I get ya....truly I do. But, I think, you've been around these boards long enough to know it is PRECISELY those old ex's that are the source of the majority (or at least a large chunk) of the affairs. The fact you had history may make it even worse, not better...in your W's eyes. I get it, that in YOUR eyes....it isn't so bad...because it wasn't.....through your eyes. But..what is important to the situation, is how it looked through hers. I think that is all I (and Affaircare, and couple others) are trying to say.

Now...that being said....it has no bearing on your current issue. I just wanted to point out perception. It is also quite obviously hard to get over a spouse actually pursuing someone else. I will tell you, in my case...my wife was quite convinced that *I* was having an affair. There wasn't even any other woman I was talking/hanging around with/texting/anything. I was working my arse off, and spending too much time (after late nights working) getting some follow-up beers. I justified it because my wife always went to bed early...so...what's the harm. The harm was, asleep or not asleep....she knew I was coming home late. And, in her mind, I must have been cheating. Instead of confronting me...she just built up resentments. In the end....her perception (wrong as it might have been) dictated where her emotions went...and ultimately began starting up an EA. Thank GOD I caught it early...and finally dealt with her perceptions. Point is. It doesn't matter if you relationship was purely innocent. What matters is what your WIFE thought...or what was going through HER head. That DOES matter.

Food for thought, my friend.


----------



## Harken Banks

Daily grind, I don't disagree that I went somewhere I shouldn't. But between you and affaircare, this is getting ridiculous. I am still trying to figure out whether my wife is still lying to me and if she is not, when she stopped, whether she has engaged in oral and other sex acts with this guy, whether they are still in contact, wtf happened between them.


----------



## SomedayDig

All questions that MUST be answered HB.


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## Harken Banks

And I was aware AllMessedUp had FB and probably other contact with old bfs. I now know there was some at leasat mildly flirty stuff. And she travels several times a year to her home city (until we married) for several days at a time. I was never bothered by any of it. Our rules may change. AllMessedUp's affair, the reason why we are here, is in another universe.


----------



## DailyGrind

Harken Banks said:


> Daily grind, I don't disagree that I went somewhere I shouldn't. But between you and affaircare, this is getting ridiculous. I am still trying to figure out whether my wife is still lying to me and if she is not, when she stopped, whether she has engaged in oral and other sex acts with this guy, whether they are still in contact, wtf happened between them.


Okay, Harken...I just have to say....I (and I assume some others as well) are really having a hard time following your posts. You understandably were very vague early on...but still remain light on the content.



Harken Banks said:


> I learned yesterday about how many times and for how many months she lied to me about no contact while the nightly phone calls continued.


First I'm seeing this...and now you are talking about it having been sexual. Everything I've read said it wasn't physical. Certainly, if it WAS physical...and she does continue to lie to you...that is a different egg entirely...and I apologise for waylaying the topic. My interpretation was that she had come clean to some inappropriate texting....but nothing happened. :scratchhead:


----------



## Harken Banks

On the first quote, I tell this stuff in narrative form because I can't make sense of it so I paint the picture for you, more experienced and insightful, to tell me what it means. It has been enlightening. And alarming.

On the second, dude, where have you been? Kidding. There is a lot of stuff here. This "you did the same thing so what's your complaint stuff" is way off base and unhelpful. I invite you to read the thread.

"A b!tchin good read." New York Times Book Review.


----------



## Chaparral

I have read the whole thread and it is the hardest thing in the world to make sense of. I agree with affaircare and DG. You met up with a woman who professed her love for you, no?

Now you are hinting there is more to your wifes actions than you have posted. More than writhing a Penthouse style letter? If yes, plainly state what it it is you found out. You are NOT painting even a blurry , impressionistic painting. Not even close.

As a matter of fact you have posted and reposted a quote from your wife's thread and still will not point out its significance.

If you don't straighten up I'm going to find you in contempt.


----------



## DailyGrind

Harken Banks said:


> This "you did the same thing so what's your complaint stuff" is way off base and unhelpful. I invite you to read the thread.
> .


So NOT what was being said. Believe me, I've been reading your posts from the start. And reread all yesterdays posts. Even read some of WW's posts. I didn't see where you discovered nightly calls and believe it went physical. I'll bow out and wait for those posts to hit my email. 

My prior posts were in the context of possible R. Given your last revelation, you clearly aren't in that atmosphere, at this time.

Best of luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

My wife at a minimum had many explicit sexual conversations, fantasy discussions, what I would do to you discussions, technique and position discussions and perhaps more interactive stuff with this guy. Also the sexting. Discussion of marital aids. Maybe some forms of demonstration, I don't know. they at a minimum discussed plans to meet up during their travels. My wife at a minimum offered to send him a ticket (yes, she had voucher she proposed to give to him and we both have plenty of free cash and miles) to join her in March (maybe other times) during her 3 or 4 day stay at company headquarterrs city. Chap, as for me, I was wrong. No excuse. You are off base in drawing any equivalence other than that my communicating with old gf (which is something we both did and it didn't bother me) and meeting with old gf was a betrayal of my wife because I knew she wouldn't like it so I tried to avoid the conflict. Nothing like that will ever happen again.


----------



## DailyGrind

I'm still trying to figure out what was found that was "far worse" than finding his W in bed with another man. "far worse"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DailyGrind

Okay...now you are painting a much more succinct picture. Yes..this is bad...and other than the plane ticket info....all news to me. Dude, how do you expect any kind of meaningful advice if you hold back details? This isn't a courtroom where you strategize and leave the most damning evidence for your final salvo. We can only go with what we know.

I'm sorry. Given this latest....yes....I can see where it would be very difficult to get past it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

Chaparral, on March 29 my life turned into hell on earth. I have been trying to bring my wife back to reality, to find out what the hell is going on. Been consistently told I was being ridiculous. That even AP said I was being ridiculous. That there was nothing going on. My first posts lay out some of the mountain of weirdness. Just irrefutable data points in stark contrast to what my wife was adamantly maintaining. I thought I was going crazy. I was reeling, disoriented, and deeply depressed and the person who was my primary reference point was spinning me around and watching the spectacle. She lied to everyone except AP. She lied to the counselor who said to me that I had to let it go and give her her space to have this relationship. She didn't mention that she had shared with him her fantasies of performing oral in hotel rooms, him bending her over, discussions of oral technique, toy use etc.


----------



## Harken Banks

DailyGrind said:


> Okay...now you are painting a much more succinct picture. Yes..this is bad...and other than the plane ticket info....all news to me. Dude, how do you expect any kind of meaningful advice if you hold back details? This isn't a courtroom where you strategize and leave the most damning evidence for your final salvo. We can only go with what we know.
> 
> I'm sorry. Given this latest....yes....I can see where it would be very difficult to get past it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Dude, its all out there. You just have to wade through the "HB, now you had an affair too, lets talk about that chaff."


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> Chaparral, on March 29 my life turned into hell on earth. I have been trying to bring my wife back to reality, to find out what the hell is going on. Been consistently told I was being ridiculous. That even AP said I was being ridiculous. That there was nothing going on. My first posts lay out some of the mountain of weirdness. Just irrefutable data points in stark contrast to what my wife was adamantly maintaining. I thought I was going crazy. I was reeling, disoriented, and deeply depressed and the person who was my primary reference point was spinning me around and watching the spectacle. She lied to everyone except AP. She lied to the counselor who said to me that I had to let it go and give her her space to have this relationship. She didn't mention that she had shared with him her fantasies of performing oral in hotel rooms, him bending her over, discussions of oral technique, toy use etc.


But you are just now bringing this to light. Why? When/how did you find this out?


----------



## Harken Banks

And I only learned about sexual stuff within the last week. After Bandit and few others slapped me out of my stupor.


----------



## SomedayDig

As an aside...the counselor who said you need to let it go and give her her space...yeah, I woulda decked that person.


----------



## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> But you are just now bringing this to light. Why? When/how did you find this out?


No. No. I'm not. I only learned of it within the past week. But it's in prior posts. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/924461-post256.html I didn't see the need to get too deep into the weeds or to dwell too long on the nasty.


----------



## Harken Banks

SomedayDig said:


> As an aside...the counselor who said you need to let it go and give her her space...yeah, I woulda decked that person.


I know where to find him. And thanks to my wife, AP too.


----------



## SomedayDig

Harken Banks said:


> I know where to find him. And thanks to my wife, AP too.


Sorry, but yes. I should have included being upset with her for this, too. I just don't think physical stuff like that about women. Even though my own wife did horrible crap, I never felt like physically harming her in any way.

It sucks when they do that stuff. Makes one feel a lot less sane when you begin to question yourself.

As I said, the trickle truth stuff really sucks moose balls. I've dealt with it in my own attempt at reconciliation and it only pushes the BS back to square one sometimes. I can't express enough to people reading this: If you are the WS...please, please, please do NOT do this to your BS. It is so painful that you cannot imagine it.

EDIT: Yes, the AP, too. Cuz he was the f'ng chump dissing you in texts the way he was.


----------



## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> As a matter of fact you have posted and reposted a quote from your wife's thread and still will not point out its significance.


I have a disagreement with my wife as to whether she was crossing a boundary in walking out to the beach with this guy after midnight. I told I thought her narrative on this episode was steeped in denial. Like she was being careful to maintain boundaries.

Here's the quoted text: “After a night of casino games and playing pool with a number of colleagues, four of us decided to call it a night and head back to our rooms. It was a resort with various buildings and I was staying in the same complex as one of the guys. As we were heading into our rooms, he asked whether I wanted to talk out by the beach since it was such a nice night. I said sure and headed through my room and out the back door to the beach (he went through his own room), but as I walked out back I began to worry a little that he might assume the wrong idea, so when we went out to the Adirondack chairs right behind the rooms, I intentionally left an open chair between us. I had also learned earlier that evening that his divorce was almost finalized after his wife of 25 years had an affair and left, knew he was hurt by that so I felt he wouldn’t be stupid enough to make a move.”

First, I have heard slightly different versions of how this came about and still don't have an entirely clear picture. Second, it seems clear to me that she should not have walked after midnight, after closing down the bar, to spend an hour at the beach with this guy. Even if it was because it was a clear and moonless night and they wanted to discuss astronomy (Hi Dig). My belief is that when he asked or however it came about, she thought, hmm, this is kind of interesting. And went out to see what would happen, without necessarily knowing what that would be. She says I am wrong about that, they went to chat. But within a week they are talking about this guy's miracle oral technique. for the next 5 months she lied to me about every aspect of this relationship other than to tell me they were having conversations and it felt good. Today we are in a huge mess. She went to see what would happen. That is what happened.

So when she writes that she didn't want him to get the wrong idea I ask, what would be the wrong idea. That you might be in a sexual affair within a week?

When she writes that she was careful to leave a chair between them, I think she protests too much. That was the nature of our disagreement and why I posted the quote.


----------



## Shaggy

I think the results of her going to chat with him, show just how wrong it was of her. You are correct in my opinion,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

Harken Banks said:


> I
> 
> 
> for the next 5 months she lied to me about every aspect of this relationship other than to tell me they were having conversations and it felt good. .


Actually, she lied about that too. There were several promises over several months of its over and n/c followed sometimes by her calling the guy sometimes within hours after the nc communication. I had affair and follow up fatigue and figured eventually I will ask if she has maintained nc and she will tell me the truth. After a few broken ncs, I thought I had enough and decided that if when I asked the answer was that there had been contact since the last promise, we'd separate. Discussed with my MC who would not tell me what to do but telegraphed her preference for a more tempered approach. But I was fed up with this endless string-along. AllMessedUp was travelling, on the way home, called, and I calmly asked if there had been any communication since her last promise. She said no. I was surprised but pleased. That was june 7. Learned this week that was a lie.


----------



## Harken Banks

The phone arrived from work headquarters.


----------



## warlock07

OP is being attacked unfairly here.


----------



## BrockLanders

Harken Banks said:


> Here's the quoted text: “After a night of casino games and playing pool with a number of colleagues, four of us decided to call it a night and head back to our rooms. It was a resort with various buildings and I was staying in the same complex as one of the guys. As we were heading into our rooms, he asked whether I wanted to talk out by the beach since it was such a nice night. I said sure and headed through my room and out the back door to the beach (he went through his own room), but as I walked out back I began to worry a little that he might assume the wrong idea, so when we went out to the Adirondack chairs right behind the rooms, I intentionally left an open chair between us. I had also learned earlier that evening that his divorce was almost finalized after his wife of 25 years had an affair and left, knew he was hurt by that so I felt he wouldn’t be stupid enough to make a move.”
> 
> First, I have heard slightly different versions of how this came about and still don't have an entirely clear picture. Second, it seems clear to me that she should not have walked after midnight, after closing down the bar, to spend an hour at the beach with this guy. Even if it was because it was a clear and moonless night and they wanted to discuss astronomy (Hi Dig). My belief is that when he asked or however it came about, she thought, hmm, this is kind of interesting. And went out to see what would happen, without necessarily knowing what that would be. She says I am wrong about that, they went to chat. But within a week they are talking about this guy's miracle oral technique. for the next 5 months she lied to me about every aspect of this relationship other than to tell me they were having conversations and it felt good. Today we are in a huge mess. She went to see what would happen. That is what happened.
> 
> So when she writes that she didn't want him to get the wrong idea I ask, what would be the wrong idea. That you might be in a sexual affair within a week?
> 
> When she writes that she was careful to leave a chair between them, I think she protests too much. That was the nature of our disagreement and why I posted the quote.


No guy performs oral sex on a woman without sealing the deal and f_ing her afterward. It just doesn't happen. If you have solid evidence that he went down on her, he's also banged her and probably more than once.

Another absurd lie is that as they were together and decided to go to the beach, they split off into two and went through each of their own rooms to go to the beach. Does she want to get caught? I've seen some clowns on here, but you're certainly not someone who would overlook these glaring inconsistencies.


----------



## warlock07

BrockLanders said:


> No guy performs oral sex on a woman without sealing the deal and f_ing her afterward. It just doesn't happen. If you have solid evidence that he went down on her, he's also banged her and probably more than once.
> 
> Another absurd lie is that as they were together and decided to go to the beach, they split off into two and went through each of their own rooms to go to the beach. Does she want to get caught? I've seen some clowns on here, but you're certainly not someone who would overlook these glaring inconsistencies.


The guy sexted about going down on her(for now). We don't know if the affair was ever physical


----------



## Harken Banks

Correct, Warlock. We also know there were lenghty, graphic and fantastic conversations.


----------



## BrockLanders

Harken Banks said:


> Correct, Warlock. We also know there were lenghty, graphic and fantastic conversations.


What was the context of the conversation? Is it the OM boasting of his oral talents or was your wife reveling in his skills? Did it appear to be fantasy of something they would like to do or was it a report of what they had already done? At this point either one is really an indictment as if it hadn't happened it was very close to happening. At this point maybe you should assume the worst happened and base your decision upon that. Without your intervention this would have continued and gotten physical very soon anyway.


----------



## Harken Banks

They exchanged graphic phantasies of their discrete encounters in text and conversation, at a minimum. At a minimum, she offered to buy him a plane ticked to join her when she was away. OK, enough of this is out there.


----------



## Affaircare

I believe after this post I will likely only be writing on AMU's thread. But there are a few things I would like to point out. 

I did read your whole thread. All 25 pages from beginning to end. I did also read AMU's thread from beginning to end too. It's not that I lack reading and I agree that you are there and I am here and thus may not have every fact perfectly straight. That being said, however, I note that before you had any proof that your wife's affair had "gone physical" that you strongly suspected and did pretty much accuse her. For some parts of the affair, I have no doubt that her head thought "Hey we haven't actually been physical in real life so this is safe." Maybe you thought that too with your old-GF. But I point out to you that before there was any kind of proof of no-proof, where did you head go? "OH GOD did they have sex?" Then people here on TAM explained it was an affair and that there was pretty great likelihood that something happened...and that in affair-talk "We just kissed" equals one time of sex. Right? And after that you wanted her to "prove she had never had sex with him."

So doesn't it seem reasonable to you to think that while you were involved for 8 months with your old-GF that if it was all "up and up" and perfectly okay that you would have mentioned it to your wife and said, "Hey honey is that okay with you?" And doesn't it seem reasonable to you that if your mind jumped to "OH GOD did they have sex?" when she sat in deck chairs with the guy while on a trip....that it's likely HER mind jumped to "OH GOD did they have sex?" when you were missing with your old-GF for a whole day? What if she believes to this day that you and the old-GF actually got a hotel room and you were so ashamed you couldn't come home right away...could you prove that you didn't have sex? If she had come here and given us the info like you did, guess what? We would have told her the same stuff that was told to you: it IS an affair and more than likely at some time it went physical. So now you are in her shoes. Do you have evidence that you didn't get a hotel room? Maybe you do...maybe you don't. My point is not to accuse you...my point is again to try to see if you can get to a point of understanding and mercy. 

See I can't prove that between the last time I replied to you and right now, that I didn't have sex with the guy next door. I didn't! But I did not set up my life such that I have evidential documentation to prove my innocence!! I was seen around my house, spoke to my Dear Hubby, and wrote other things, so possibly/probably I could rebuild the time somewhat...but if you have it firmly in your head that I did have sex with the guy next door, I can't prove it. Make sense? And frankly I suspect you can not prove you didn't have sex with your old-GF that day. 

Again, if your mind can jump to "OH GOD did they have sex?" due to lack of knowledge of what's going on and full detail of what's being said...it's seems plausible that her mind could jump there too. And if your mind can say "PROVE you didn't!" and she can't exactly...then it seems within reason to think her mind may also have thought "PROVE you didn't!" and you can't because when you actually are innocent you don't think to "save receipts to prove I didn't do anything" I'm not saying she's innocent--from what I can tell she is entirely and very guilty--and that is HER burden to bear and hers to deal with. What I AM saying is that just because YOU don't see your affair as having been as "big" or "devastating" as hers was doesn't mean that's how SHE views it nor does it justify your affair because hers was bigger. What I AM saying is that whether she chooses to leave and become a [email protected] or chooses to stay and work on the marriage, you are personally responsible for what you chose to do (not her). And finally I AM saying that I get it--your affair is not exactly the same as her affair...but based on your responses and how much it hurt, etc. can you be a bigger man and say "Well yes they're different but I think I can see that what I did was a lot more hurtful than I realized and extend a little understanding to the woman I love because I sort of see how it happened. I sort of empathize"? 

Frankly it does not sound so far like you are willing to work on your side of the the mess or extending any kind of understanding, and if that is the case, that's sad. Good luck with your choices.


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## Harken Banks

Affaircare said:


> That being said, however, I note that before you had any proof that your wife's affair had "gone physical" that you strongly suspected and did pretty much accuse her. .


Lady, I stopped reading right there. Please don't add any more clutter to my thread.


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## BrockLanders

Affaircare said:


> I believe after this post I will likely only be writing on AMU's thread. But there are a few things I would like to point out.
> 
> I did read your whole thread. All 25 pages from beginning to end. I did also read AMU's thread from beginning to end too. It's not that I lack reading and I agree that you are there and I am here and thus may not have every fact perfectly straight. That being said, however, I note that before you had any proof that your wife's affair had "gone physical" that you strongly suspected and did pretty much accuse her. For some parts of the affair, I have no doubt that her head thought "Hey we haven't actually been physical in real life so this is safe." Maybe you thought that too with your old-GF. But I point out to you that before there was any kind of proof of no-proof, where did you head go? "OH GOD did they have sex?" Then people here on TAM explained it was an affair and that there was pretty great likelihood that something happened...and that in affair-talk "We just kissed" equals one time of sex. Right? And after that you wanted her to "prove she had never had sex with him."
> 
> So doesn't it seem reasonable to you to think that while you were involved for 8 months with your old-GF that if it was all "up and up" and perfectly okay that you would have mentioned it to your wife and said, "Hey honey is that okay with you?" And doesn't it seem reasonable to you that if your mind jumped to "OH GOD did they have sex?" when she sat in deck chairs with the guy while on a trip....that it's likely HER mind jumped to "OH GOD did they have sex?" when you were missing with your old-GF for a whole day? What if she believes to this day that you and the old-GF actually got a hotel room and you were so ashamed you couldn't come home right away...could you prove that you didn't have sex? If she had come here and given us the info like you did, guess what? We would have told her the same stuff that was told to you: it IS an affair and more than likely at some time it went physical. So now you are in her shoes. Do you have evidence that you didn't get a hotel room? Maybe you do...maybe you don't. My point is not to accuse you...my point is again to try to see if you can get to a point of understanding and mercy.
> 
> See I can't prove that between the last time I replied to you and right now, that I didn't have sex with the guy next door. I didn't! But I did not set up my life such that I have evidential documentation to prove my innocence!! I was seen around my house, spoke to my Dear Hubby, and wrote other things, so possibly/probably I could rebuild the time somewhat...but if you have it firmly in your head that I did have sex with the guy next door, I can't prove it. Make sense? And frankly I suspect you can not prove you didn't have sex with your old-GF that day.
> 
> Again, if your mind can jump to "OH GOD did they have sex?" due to lack of knowledge of what's going on and full detail of what's being said...it's seems plausible that her mind could jump there too. And if your mind can say "PROVE you didn't!" and she can't exactly...then it seems within reason to think her mind may also have thought "PROVE you didn't!" and you can't because when you actually are innocent you don't think to "save receipts to prove I didn't do anything" I'm not saying she's innocent--from what I can tell she is entirely and very guilty--and that is HER burden to bear and hers to deal with. What I AM saying is that just because YOU don't see your affair as having been as "big" or "devastating" as hers was doesn't mean that's how SHE views it nor does it justify your affair because hers was bigger. What I AM saying is that whether she chooses to leave and become a [email protected] or chooses to stay and work on the marriage, you are personally responsible for what you chose to do (not her). And finally I AM saying that I get it--your affair is not exactly the same as her affair...but based on your responses and how much it hurt, etc. can you be a bigger man and say "Well yes they're different but I think I can see that what I did was a lot more hurtful than I realized and extend a little understanding to the woman I love because I sort of see how it happened. I sort of empathize"?
> 
> Frankly it does not sound so far like you are willing to work on your side of the the mess or extending any kind of understanding, and if that is the case, that's sad. Good luck with your choices.


He's gotten nothing but trickle truth up to now. Why should he take her word now? This isn't a court of law, it's a marriage. With what she's even admitted to so far she should carry the burden of proof or at the very least deal with the consequences of her actions.


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## warlock07

AC, a major difference. While what he did was not appropriate, you are giving it undue importance by calling it an 8 month affair. And when she asked, he came clean. There were no lies. The conversation with his ex were neither sexual or emotional. He acknowledges that it was inappropriate, and is willing to change about that in the future. Now, his wife lied and continued a sexual affair for 5 months. She lied, gaslighted him(biggest betrayal here) the OP and even lied to the counselor. There is a difference.

By diverting the topic from her affair, you are harming the marriage more than doing it any good.


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## Chaparral

warlock07 said:


> OP is being attacked unfairly here.


Attacked or encouraged to let us know what he knows. For whatever reason, I even asked him for a timeline in case I missed something. My feeling is he doesn't know what he has posted and what he has PMed. I have no clue as to what is going on. For example almost everything he has posted today is new to us but several days old or older. Why is he being so unclear? I just can't see the point.

I still don't know if he thinks she is still in the affair, lying or what and she seems to have quit posting.

What is the current situation?

Who's on first, Abbot and Costello, is way easier to follow.


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## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> Correct, Warlock. We also know there were lenghty, graphic and fantastic conversations.


How do you know that?


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## warlock07

She confessed Chapparal. Was the post deleted or what?

She even mentioned writing a roleplaying penthouse style letter where the OM and her meet up at a hotel.


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## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> How do you know that?


That is some of what she has described to me in the last several days. The plans to meet up, airline tickets, hotel rooms, how I will bl*w you, how you will bend me over, what I can do with my fingers and tongue, what I do with my toy, etc. Chap, I hate having to write this stuff again and again. Sure my wife hates it too.


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## warlock07

chapparal said:


> Attacked or encouraged to let us know what he knows. For whatever reason, I even asked him for a timeline in case I missed something. My feeling is he doesn't know what he has posted and what he has PMed. I have no clue as to what is going on. For example almost everything he has posted today is new to us but several days old or older. Why is he being so unclear? I just can't see the point.
> 
> I still don't know if he thinks she is still in the affair, lying or what and she seems to have quit posting.
> 
> What is the current situation?
> 
> Who's on first, Abbot and Costello, is way easier to follow.


He thinks she is still lying because what she posted in her thread does not still match up with what she told him of the first night they(AMU and OM) met(after the most recent confession). They are not consistent, hence he thinks that there are more lies


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## Unsure in Seattle

warlock07 said:


> She confessed Chapparal. Was the post deleted or what?
> 
> She even mentioned writing a roleplaying penthouse style letter where the OM and her meet up at a hotel.


The OP is not as hard to follow as some are making him out to be.


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## Harken Banks

Look, I will try to find the posts that lay the mea culpa out as it has unfolded, day-by-day over the past week, progressively, in installments. Like a serialized novel.


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## Harken Banks

Unsure in Seattle said:


> The OP is not as hard to follow as some are making him out to be.


Thanks. I don't know what the hang up is.


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## AMU

Harken Banks said:


> And has been lying flat out to my face about it for 5 months in response to very direct and reasonable questions. Have you read the thread. First few pages should cover it. I learned yesterday about how many times and for how many months she lied to me about no contact while the nightly phone calls continued.


This is absolutely correct - I did lie about continued conversations with my AP. I continued to be in communication with AP after HB exposed my affair at the end of March – I never told him I would end contact and justified to myself continued contact through our counselor’s encouragement that I should be able to have a person to feel comfortable talking to. I admit the counselor had no idea of the content of our discussions - he didn’t ask and I definitely did not volunteer. Yes, I knew it was wrong to continue contact, and I did it anyway. And I lied to HB by telling him I was having conversations with AP, that he was only a friend and that it felt good to connect to someone. I first told HB that I would end contact with AP at the end of April and I called AP the next day and told him we could no longer have any contact. That lasted only a week - I called him that time, so I was the one who reinitiated contact. During the month of May, we had additional phone conversations (not at night, but conversations nonetheless), IM communication through work and texts. We were in contact up until my trip to Vail the first week in June.

As I was leaving the mountains to drive back to Denver on July 7th, HB and I had a phone conversation, during which he asked me to write to AP demanding no contact and he asked to see what I was going to send before sending it. I stopped right before I reached Denver and sent a very explicit no contact note. At the time I didn’t realize it was the “norm” to have BH read and review before sending – I just wanted to get it done. Needed to get it done right then. Until last night, I couldn’t have told you why I did that, other than during my Vail trip I had done a lot of thinking and questioning about what I was doing. Last night he asked me when I was last in contact with AP and I told him we had texted during my Vail trip (I told him during my attempt to tell all that I had continued conversations with AP after the first no contact until the second and last no contact communication). He reminded me of the content of our conversation as I left the mountains that I had honestly completely blocked it from my memory – I remembered talking but did not remember the details of our conversation until last night – perhaps I had repressed the memory because it shook me to the core. He asked me that night whether I had been in contact with AP since the end of May, when our 5 year old had been involved in a terrible accident and spent the night in the hospital. He knew that I had talked to AP earlier that day because he saw the call on my computer while I was at the hospital. I told him no (lie). He then told me that if my answer had been yes, he was going to ask for a separation – that he had even discussed it with his IC. 

Scared the sh-t out of me, and made me, for the first time, really understand that our marriage was truly at stake. Did I know what I had been doing was wrong – absolutely. Did I want to leave husband for AP – definitely not. HB thinks I was falling in love with AP – absolutely not. I got caught up in the excitement of hearing from him, enjoyed the attention, enjoyed being desired. But it was my husband that I wanted and for the first time it really hit home the depth of my deception and the implications and consequences of what I was doing. Huge wake up call. Yes, WAY too late - despite the screaming in my ear by BH for two months, it took me until that moment, when he made it real by saying he was going to ask for a separation (note to those BHs and BWs out there, to really comprehend the consequences of my wrongs, threat of separation does work). So I sent the no contact letter and haven’t looked back. Have never missed AP, have never wanted to know what he was doing, have never had any desire for contact since then. 

Have lived in horror of my actions, wanted to hide them, make them all go away. Well you’ve all seen them now – I told him all and he’s passed it along to you. I know many of you continue to speculate and believe it was physical – it was not. I know you believe I haven’t told all – not even HB believes. I don’t expect him to – I broke his trust. I have to live with that and I can only help him understand what happened, what was said and help him work through that. My phone should arrive this week, and I googled this morning to see how and if we can get the texts off the phone. Doesn’t look promising, but we’ll try. Because it seems doubtful (at least based on what I saw this morning), I also called my company’s Care group today and asked the process to get copies of all the texts. They are sending the form to our house, but told me all I can get are the phone numbers and time of the texts – I need a subpoena to get the content. We’re both attorneys – perhaps we can figure that out. I know I’ve been wrong, nothing can excuse or take away what I did – I own it and am trying my best to make amends.


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## warlock07

Is it a blackberry?


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## Harken Banks

Yes. Clamshell. I hold it in my hand.


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## Chaparral

Finally! Now, do you agree with this timeline and content HB?

Do you have any questions?

One thing that came to mind about the night on the beach is when they closed down the bar they were probably pretty drunk and that could explain MINOR diferences in her story.

This is why maried people should not drink around people of the opposite sex for any reason with out their mate. Like I have posted before, I knew a newly wed who got drunk at a disco and ended up in the back seat of an aquaintance that did not even know she had gotten married until a month later.


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## AMU

Harken Banks said:


> Correct, Warlock. We also know there were lenghty, graphic and fantastic conversations.


Yes, we had sexual discussions. I recall one instance where he told me he was having naughtly thoughts about me and explained what he was doing in his imagination (from behind). I recall two instances where I sexted him about actions I would take on him. He did describe sexual actions he has taken on other women, including going down on them (did not describe that about me). I told him I didn't like that and he told me I needed to relax and explained how it could be enjoyed. Yes, we talked about the color of underwear and what color who was wearing on a specific day. Yes we talked about whether we might meet up at some point or whether we'd ever see each other again. Most of our conversations were not about sex. But some were and I have shared the content of all of them I recall to my husband. He clearly enjoys sharing all with you. And makes it sounds as if it was an intensely sexual relationship - the majority of our conversations were about day to day life. Was it appropriate - absolutely not in any circumstance.


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## Harken Banks

AllMessedUp said:


> Yes, we had sexual discussions. I recall one instance where he told me he was having naughtly thoughts about me and explained what he was doing in his imagination (from behind). I recall two instances where I sexted him about actions I would take on him. He did describe sexual actions he has taken on other women, including going down on them (did not describe that about me). I told him I didn't like that and he told me I needed to relax and explained how it could be enjoyed. Yes, we talked about the color of underwear and what color who was wearing on a specific day. Yes we talked about whether we might meet up at some point or whether we'd ever see each other again. Most of our conversations were not about sex. But some were and I have shared the content of all of them I recall to my husband. He clearly enjoys sharing all with you. And makes it sounds as if it was an intensely sexual relationship - the majority of our conversations were about day to day life. Was it appropriate - absolutely not in any circumstance.


Thanks AffairCare, Chap, DailyGrind and some others for making this day necessary. (Berra). I did not want to dwell on this stuff, dredge it back up, muck around in it. Helped a lot.


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## Harken Banks

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks AffairCare, Chap, DailyGrind and some others for making this day necessary. (Berra). I did not want to dwell on this stuff, dredge it back up, muck around in it. Helped a lot.


I would appreciate it if someone around here who is paying attention could defend me as my wife is now certain I posted the icky stuff to embarrass her. I would like to go back and delete it all. I did not want to go back there. I thought it had been sufficiently covered.


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## warlock07

She posted that in her thread too , right?


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## warlock07

> And makes it sounds as if it was an intensely sexual relationship - the majority of our conversations were about day to day life.


:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Didn't you write a penthouse style letter to the OM ? The affair was sexual enough to do damage your relationship and marriage. Let us not argue the sexual intensity levels from 1-10 scale.


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## AMU

warlock07 said:


> She posted that in her thread too , right?


Yes, I did - I'm not trying to hide. Did that for plenty long enough. Trying to make amends - not sure how this is helping, but if it takes me admitting the explicit details out there for the entire world to make it better for my husband, I'll do it. Personally, I'd rather spend the time showing him just how sorry I am.


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## warlock07

Passive aggressive much? 

Read the prior posts. Most posters did not realize that there was a sexual aspect to the affair(thanks to your HB posts) and were comparing it to his relationship with the ex.


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## Chaparral

AllMessedUp said:


> Yes, I did - I'm not trying to hide. Did that for plenty long enough. Trying to make amends - not sure how this is helping, but if it takes me admitting the explicit details out there for the entire world to make it better for my husband, I'll do it. Personally, I'd rather spend the time showing him just how sorry I am.


I thought there was very little or at least a lot less sexual talk going on. Although I feel certain you were trying your best to meet up and take it physical. After all you offered to furnish OM with a plane ticket for what, more talk?

There is no point in being modest now that time has past.

My take is that you can get past this but you BOTH have to strat taking care of each other rather than putting each other last .

HB works long hours and when he isn't he ins't spending time with you. He is spending time with daughters sking/coaching and you don't want to be there. There is more but what you are describing is not a marriage. 

HB hears love words from old GF and you start up with OM drinking, partying, spendng a romantic evening on the beach and going off to fantasy land in a matter of days. You are two of the luckiest people here to have caught this when you did but both of you have to take the axes out of your hands and quit choppingdown this family.


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## BrockLanders

Harken Banks said:


> I would appreciate it if someone around here who is paying attention could defend me as my wife is now certain I posted the icky stuff to embarrass her. I would like to go back and delete it all. I did not want to go back there. I thought it had been sufficiently covered.



You would have been best off never mentioning this place to her. You took a huge dump where you sleep, admit it.


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## BrockLanders

AllMessedUp said:


> Yes, we had sexual discussions. I recall one instance where he told me he was having naughtly thoughts about me and explained what he was doing in his imagination (from behind). I recall two instances where I sexted him about actions I would take on him. He did describe sexual actions he has taken on other women, including going down on them (did not describe that about me). I told him I didn't like that and he told me I needed to relax and explained how it could be enjoyed. Yes, we talked about the color of underwear and what color who was wearing on a specific day. Yes we talked about whether we might meet up at some point or whether we'd ever see each other again. Most of our conversations were not about sex. But some were and I have shared the content of all of them I recall to my husband. He clearly enjoys sharing all with you. And makes it sounds as if it was an intensely sexual relationship - the majority of our conversations were about day to day life. Was it appropriate - absolutely not in any circumstance.


For you to act like most of your interactions with the OM were banal things about everyday life is rich. Even more so is this offer of a phone that's most likely been scrubbed according to DoD specs. This red herring you've offered is meaningless. Would your company allow its legal staff to give a device that contains client-attorney communications to be read by someone who has not signed a NDA at the very least? I'm sure the phone has had all its data overwritten according to DoD specifications and is encrypted as well.

I say offer 100% right now or D. That's what I would do.


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## Acabado

Beyond the damage of the affair itself, what I felt from the very beginning is when OP came here it was obvious he was being gaslighted (read heavy emotional abuse here) and horribly adviced by a crappy MC/IC (sure, he was lied, fooled too). I'm sure once the facts of WW's affair are digested by HB the fact she fooled MC to go further underground, meanwhile picturing him as crazy, overating, seeing him practicaly breaking down emotionaly, trying to follow IC's horrible advice of just trust her, not snooping while he could sense the detachment, the marriage going down the tubes.. well this damage is going to take even more time to heal. 

All this when they were separated, in the middle of this move, and being blamed for the poor state of the marriage. 

He "knew" what was going on, he wanted to trust her, he wanted to trust IC, thanks God he came here, he resisted the advice, he read another's threads, he saw the scritp... This nightmare started March. The affair was ongoing until late Jun. He know the truth days ago becuase he had enough of being lied to and was ready to explode marraige in order to save it, following TAM advice. 

Dunno. I just hope HB get some relief for knowning the truth. Now he has a real chance to rebuild the marriage which was all he wanted to begin with.


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## iheartlife

AllMessedUp said:


> Yes, we had sexual discussions. I recall one instance where he told me he was having naughtly thoughts about me and explained what he was doing in his imagination (from behind). I recall two instances where I sexted him about actions I would take on him. He did describe sexual actions he has taken on other women, including going down on them (did not describe that about me). I told him I didn't like that and he told me I needed to relax and explained how it could be enjoyed. Yes, we talked about the color of underwear and what color who was wearing on a specific day. Yes we talked about whether we might meet up at some point or whether we'd ever see each other again. Most of our conversations were not about sex. But some were and I have shared the content of all of them I recall to my husband. He clearly enjoys sharing all with you. And makes it sounds as if it was an intensely sexual relationship - the majority of our conversations were about day to day life. Was it appropriate - absolutely not in any circumstance.


AllMessedUp, you're a lawyer. Will you at least agree with the old saying, where there's smoke there's fire? 

I have the exact opposite situation with my husband. Hundreds of emails he thought he'd deleted, some from a secret account. Sex was never, ever mentioned; just lots of I love you's and you're so wonderful and you are the only person who understands me, etc. Did I think for one minute that this automatically means they never had sex? I wasn't born in a barn.

You are the opposite situation--graphic stuff and now you've got to prove that's as far as it went. I am capable of believing you, but still, I wish you luck with that.

It's okay to feel shame and embarrassment at your communications with the OM. That is part of the point of recovering from this type of behavior. When it's secret and hidden, it has an enticing quality of the forbidden to it. When it's out in the open, well, not so much.

I would move away from blaming your husband for sharing this in anonymity with strangers, when it's an important part of understanding the nature of the affair and getting at the truth. Getting annoyed at him for telling the truth, and getting annoyed at the rest of us for daring to doubt that it stopped at sex talk is just another version of deflecting blame. If you didn't have sex, then you didn't have sex; why should such a suggestion irritate you if you believe yourself to be blameless in that regard? 

Getting mad at your husband for sharing this is just a way to stop feeling guilty; I don't see how that shows him you're sorry.


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## BrockLanders

Why R with her at all? She was willing to fly the OM to meet her at a private location. She was that close to cheating. At the same time their child suffered an injury and she still went to the OM. That's a deal breaker. 

Divorce this woman lest you lead a life of a cuckold.


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## AMU

iheartlife - thank you. I am horribly embarrassed about my behavior - intensely ashamed. My husband knows this and I admit I was frustrated to see post after post from him about the things I shared. Things that were previously shared by him and by me in my own post, so it felt like he was trying to throw it in my face, but I know this isn't about me - it's about trying to help him heal and I just need to let him say the things he needs to say. I appreciate all the individuals on this board and all the time you have taken to provide guidance to him.


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## Acabado

AMU, be a little patient and grow a resistant skin for a while. You husband just suffered the worse of a continued trauma who started months ago. It shall pass. He still doesn't know if he got all the truth. Let him vent.


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## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> HB works long hours and when he isn't he ins't spending time with you. He is spending time with daughters sking/coaching and you don't want to be there. There is more but what you are describing is not a marriage.
> 
> HB hears love words from old GF and you start up with OM drinking, partying, spendng a romantic evening on the beach and going off to fantasy land in a matter of days. You are two of the luckiest people here to have caught this when you did but both of you have to take the axes out of your hands and quit choppingdown this family.


1. We both always appreciate and agree with the bottom line of your advice, some of which is captured in the 3rd paragraph of the post I am quoting from. In the interest of keeping the record straight and not because I am feeling charitable, AllMessedUp does a lot. We both spend a lot of time being parents and doing things with or for the kids. AllMessedUp takes the lion's share of that load. There are times, especially winter or when she is out of town the burden falls pretty heavily on me, and I do a lot too, but I want to head off any misimpression that she is anything other than an extraordinarily devoted and involved mom. It seems that about 85% of our energy goes into the kids. AllMessedUp just has a lot more energy than me. And that relates to one of the problems that you and others here have pointed out and that is not lost on us. AllMessedUp has a lot going on. I have a lot going on, but less capacity than AllMessedUp so I get less done. We neglect each other and the marriage. 

2. You didn't say or intend iit but your post could be read to suggest that AllMessedUp was running around in bars and dancing on tables. Not this girl. She is sensible to a fault. This chapter has been off the charts uncharacteristic. 

3. Please stop with the love words from old GF. Stop. Red Herring.

Thanks, though. Your core advice is spot on.


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## Harken Banks

BrockLanders said:


> You would have been best off never mentioning this place to her. You took a huge dump where you sleep, admit it.


Was not the plan. It's somewhere in this thread. I'm just a hapless idiot. My thought when I realized what had just happened was "hmmm. I guess that's done. This will be interesting." I was strangely detached as I thought this idiotic mistake might have expedited the inevitable. 

I'll find where that is and post it in an edit.

link added: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray-11.html#post900511


----------



## Acabado

> AllMessedUp just has a lot more energy than me


It's a good thing. She owns the heavy lifting regarding the indifelity crap. By the way (I apologize if this was already said), was the NC letter already sent?

Then both have to rebuild the marriage.
Do you plan to stay with this MC? :scratchhead:
I suggest you, as avid readers, Not just friends by Shirley Glass and then marriagebuilders material: His needs her needs (maybe is the opposite) nad love busters). You guys need to squeeze time to rebuild this. Work, kids, important, couples time is a must now. You need to know each other again.
Starting by making the bedroom a bedroom indeed.


----------



## warlock07

AllMessedUp said:


> iheartlife - thank you. I am horribly embarrassed about my behavior - intensely ashamed. My husband knows this and I admit I was frustrated to see post after post from him about the things I shared. Things that were previously shared by him and by me in my own post, so it felt like he was trying to throw it in my face, but I know this isn't about me - it's about trying to help him heal and I just need to let him say the things he needs to say. I appreciate all the individuals on this board and all the time you have taken to provide guidance to him.


If it helps, most of the time he was replying to other posters. his posts are a bit confusing and most missed the sexual aspect of the affair in his post.


----------



## Harken Banks

All good advice Acabado. The MC who encouraged AllMessedUp to run with her AP was fired. That's in the thread. I'll post the link. My IC, who is a MC by training (that's in the tread too) is great. I read Shirley Glass and the entire bibliography (a bit of exaggeration) months ago. Reading his needs her needs, but literature was set aside as things took a turn for the weird. Just a few days ago AllMessedUp asked for Not 'Just Friends' and is reading it now. Significant development as she used remark that I was putting my unfounded infidelity allegations in her face by reading the book. We both read 5 languages. AllMessedUp read late in March while in full blown affair mode and said it would do me some good so I read it over the period of a day or so after she mentioned it in late March -right before d-day #1. Good reads all. I have and have made some progress on others including some of Chaparral's recommendations.


----------



## SomedayDig

Harken Banks said:


> Even if it was because it was a clear and moonless night and they wanted to discuss astronomy (Hi Dig).


(((Wave)))



(still reading since I've been absent a lot tonight)


----------



## Harken Banks

For Acabado at 8:39pm, re the marriage counselor http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50217-initial-foray-2.html#post877336


----------



## SomedayDig

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks AffairCare, Chap, DailyGrind and some others for making this day necessary. (Berra). I did not want to dwell on this stuff, dredge it back up, muck around in it. Helped a lot.


Dude. F_ck. I was reading that with Regret and my immediate comment was - Jesus f'ng Christ!! HB does NOT need that to be put in black and white at this minute.

Sorry you had to read that, man. Dammit. 

I'm not "mad" at AMU. I'm mad that someone...anyone has to go through having crap like this played out and be forced to deal with mind movie or PTSD crap.

Dammit.


----------



## Harken Banks

AllMessedUp said:


> During the month of May, we had additional phone conversations (not at night, but conversations nonetheless), IM communication through work and texts. We were in contact up until my trip to Vail the first week in June.


AllMessedUp, thanks for the post. I recall there was at least 1 other no contact promise where you said you told him no more communication in phone call and then called him later that night. 1, I thougth it was done when I said "Hey, WTF!?" and we started counseling. 2. I discovered that you continued frenetic dalliance with random guy late April, we had some heart to hearts and you unfriended in front of me. 3. The train ride call in which yet another no contact promise was made only to be broken later that night. 4. The stuff from the hospital, subsequent heart to hearts and another promise of nc. which was I learned this week was empty and followed by frequent calls at a minimum. 5. the last, June 7. Broken?


----------



## SomedayDig

I'm nobody here but I'd suggest both of you, HB and AMU take a break from this site for a bit.

Talk. Openly. Honestly.

HB, I hope you nor AMU takes this wrong, as I'm really trying to come from a decent place here: AMU, please don't feel like this is a court room you're in. HB is your husband. Talk to him as the man you married. The man you fell in love with. Look at him. Like really look at him and feel that. 

This isn't about beyond a reasonable doubt sh_t. This is about love. F'n LOVE people. Do you love HB? If so, drop every ounce of ego that might be blocking you from telling every absolute and honest truth you hold inside.

You have ALL of the pieces to the puzzle. You can put it together. HB has maybe 40 out of the 300. He's just trying to put it together and really understand this.

Sorry for being sappy and whatnot, but I just had the most incredible night with Regret. We're in a pretty good place right now. I want that for others who are working on reconciliation. With all my heart.


----------



## Harken Banks

AllMessedUp said:


> iheartlife - thank you. I am horribly embarrassed about my behavior - intensely ashamed. My husband knows this and I admit I was frustrated to see post after post from him about the things I shared. Things that were previously shared by him and by me in my own post, so it felt like he was trying to throw it in my face, but I know this isn't about me - it's about trying to help him heal and I just need to let him say the things he needs to say. I appreciate all the individuals on this board and all the time you have taken to provide guidance to him.


It should be evident that I was quite frustrated and upset that it was necessary to go back through this to bring thread back on track. And I expressed my displeasure with some of those who pushed and continuted to push. I have derived no pleasure from any of this.


----------



## DailyGrind

Uhmmm. If you'd provided more succinct information up front, you would have gotten different advice. Instead you "didn't want to wallow in the mud". I'm out of this thread. Good luck! I would, however, recommend you communicate better with your W , than you did with us. It might help.

Peace out!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

It was all there in sufficient detail already. That is my wife's complaint. I appreciate your time and failed effort.


----------



## Chaparral

I have been very confused with what happened and when. I certainly wasn't trying to rehash what you have gone through.

One question that kept coming to mind to day is how do you know the OM is really divorced? Have you checked him out? In any event I would find his ex and see if anything he has said is the truth. Hard to believe, having gone through the same thing, he would consider doing it to someone else.

HB have you spoken to your MD about this? Every one has said their doctor was a great help with a few meds that helped even things out a bit. Nothing drastic of course.

Is your counselor proficient in PTSD?


----------



## Harken Banks

Thanks, Chap. Pretty clear the guy's a sh*tburger. Coached my wife on how to hide the affair from the outset and when I first said "hey!" counseled her that "the best defense is a good offense." Great guy. Unfortunately, my wife took this advice to heart and went into attack, blameshift, and deflection mode.

Talked to IC about PTSD today. A start.


----------



## Harken Banks

I'm going fishing with my daughters for a while.


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks, Chap. Pretty clear the guy's a sh*tburger. Coached my wife on how to hide the affair from the outset and when I first said "hey!" counseled her that "the best defense is a good offense." Great guy. Unfortunately, my wife took this advice to heart and went into attack, blameshift, and deflection mode.
> 
> Talked to IC about PTSD today. A start.


I have had the suspicion his whole story to your wife is just a players ploy he uses to seduce married women. I would definitely check/have him checked out. And if I were an attorney..................

Does he work for the same company as your wife?


----------



## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> I have had the suspicion his whole story to your wife is just a players ploy he uses to seduce married women. I would definitely check/have him checked out. And if I were an attorney..................
> 
> Does he work for the same company as your wife?


No. He's just a nice guy whose wife left him for no reason after 25 years. My wife told me.


----------



## Harken Banks

Yes. Same company.


----------



## Entropy3000

Harken Banks said:


> I am exhausted and starting with small steps, the biggest I can manage.
> 
> Amazingly, I am still looking for perspective. I hope that mine will be one of those rare success stories in this place.
> 
> It’s been a ride. 100 days now and never a dull moment. So, the salient points:
> 
> We have been married 12 years. We have 4 beautiful girls, ages 10 to 2. We are good parents and good people. The day-to-day has always been challenging, but I always took comfort in the assumption that no matter how many pots and pans we threw at each other (figuratively) we could always stop, hug, and recognize that we had each other and that togetherness would protect us from everything else. There has been a lot of stress. We both work full time, 60 plus hours a week. This winter I agreed to coach in a competitive skiing program my older daughters had just graduated to, which was an additional 15/hour a week commitment regular weeks and all vacation days. It also involves a commitment to make the 3 hour trip to the mountain and back at the beginning and end of every weekend and vacation (this is a paid position for an intensive program, a job, not in the category as little league or soccer, which I also coach, but on a volunteer basis –my fellow coaches are 20-somethings who recently quit competition and are working to pay for and finish college, fun but a bit odd the first coaches meetings suiting up while they are talking about the bar last night or upcoming exams and the stress in the back of my mind is some deal I am working on and when I am going to wrap negotiations or turn documents, or the construction project at the house). More time with the girls, but less with my wife, who usually prefers to be somewhere other than the mountain. On top of this, she was asked to travel to a series of work-related conferences over a 3.5 week period from the end of February until the next to last week of March. So, for that period, me at with 4 kids 10 to 2, full-time as a corporate lawyer, and part-time as a ski coach. I was feeling abandoned and like I was falling apart. Near breakdown, if that had not already occurred. During this period, we discussed the stress in our lives and marriage. In one very honest and good conversation and feeling doubt I made the tactical error of asking would she marry me again today. No. I asked and took the answer with the attitude that I understood and understood that my job now was to change the way she would answer if asked again, which of course will not happen. It was honest in the moment (possibly said somewhat for effect) and I knew we had work to do. Minutes after that conversation, she mentioned an old college boyfriend she had been in touch with on Facebook and that he too travels a lot and they had been hoping to connect but hadn’t. He was going to be in a city 2.5 hours away and she wanted to know if it would be OK for her to drive down to meet him for lunch one day. I said sure. Pretty certain this guy is not a threat, though he is single. But something bothered me and in time I recognized that it was that our marriage is suffering from the lack of attention and support we give each other and immediately after a conversation in which we acknowledge we are in a fragile and unhappy state, she announces she wants to take 8 hours of our nonexistent free-time for each other and spend it driving to meet this guy who supposedly is just an old friend and doesn’t mean anything in particular. It bothered me. One night at the end of March, March 29 to be specific, when she had left the house for a PTO event, I noticed her laptop had been left on. I know from a prior incident that she from time to time monitors my computer, so I thought maybe I should look. I wasn’t immediately sure what I discovered, but it was so off the charts uncharacteristic and beyond anything I had ever imagined.
> 
> Re: the travelling old boyfriend, fellow business traveler, nothing remarkable. Some Facebook correspondence consistent with what she had told me, but some gratuitous disclosure of some of our struggles. No big deal. But another contact I did not recognize. With this one countless pages of flirty banter, meaning of life, and relationship talk. All in the period from March 1, the day she returned from her first trip, to March 12, the day there was an incident where she’d left the computer on the bed as I came up to go to sleep and I noticed this guy’s picture, but didn’t think a lot of it. She came out of the bathroom quickly and looking a little stressed or irritated. But nothing more.
> 
> The correspondence starts at 1:30 am the last night of the trip with some brief first Facebook contact and it’s evident now there was contact in another forum happening at the same time. Then picks up the next day when she is back home and goes all day starting with allusions to the previous night of fun and games at a casino night social event and my wife talking about the evening and admitting that she hasn’t had so much fun as an adult in a long time, loves the kids, but rarely gets out or has fun with me. From there it goes to the questionable subject matter of their conversations that night, including his love life (and some inappropriate details) as a newly divorced 50 year old guy living again as a bachelor in search of love. This stuff continues around the clock until she leaves for her next trip 4 days later. She is following his life closely enough to know and comment on the bars and golf courses he is at before he tells her. Things between us remain tense. The first night away, she asks if where he, he asks “why?” and she says because she wanted to call and didn’t know if that would be OK. He says “Call.”. That is the start of daily, hours long conversations, IMs, and texts in addition to Facebook, subject matter includes the problems in our marriage, his love life and divorce, relationship coaching, cross fit, the Red Sox, what’s for lunch and so on, some of it happening while I am sleeping next to her. It’s too much for me to process and I begin shutting down the computer, no effort to hide my tracks. The last screen, and the zinger, is his photo, which she has downloaded.
> 
> She arrives home, discovers that I have been on her computer, wants to talk and I say “Not now”, leave, and spend the night at a bar with a friend who is kind enough to drive me home. I fall into bed, I’m pretty upset and ask what the hell she was doing, she says he is just a nice guy and they are just having conversations. The next day I am a wreck and in disbelief. I can’t function and follow her around the house like a puppy dog trying to get her to stop and talk, to figure out whether we’re going to stay married and so on. That’s the pattern for the next several weeks. I go out with my two best friends and get drunk and laugh at the situation or get together with them for lunch or coffee Monday morning quarterback my latest flailings. I try to make the case to my wife that this relationship is not good for the marriage, she gets angry and evasive. When I want to talk she gets very angry, to the point quaking and then screaming that I am smothering and making her turn away further and declaring that if she had somewhere to go she would leave. I alternate between saying “Go!” and saying “What are you talking about, this is us?!” Needless to say, I wasn’t playing it well. Pretty early on, at lunch with two best friends, they both say, “Dude, we’ve talked about, we talked about it with our wives, we’ve talked about with each other. You’ve got to cut this off [complete with figure drawn across neck gesture].” I say, no guys, that would work for you. You are take charge. That is not me. And at this point she is in the place of flatly telling me I am being ridiculous. I’ll need time and better footing. The next morning something changes that.


You had me up until you said sure you were ok with your wife hooking up with and ex BF. UFB. Bad move.

Sorry I skipped the other 28 pages. Sorry this is not helpful advice. But surely this should not have been ok. Any of it.


----------



## Harken Banks

Entropy. My wife has for the entirety of the time I have known her and long before had a lot of good friends who are guys. Good guys. I wasn't concerned about the individual.


----------



## Harken Banks

As you can read in the post, I was bothered by what was going on, but not by contact with ex BF


----------



## Shaggy

Harken Banks said:


> No. He's just a nice guy whose wife left him for no reason after 25 years. My wife told me.


You know it may be a good idea to verify his divorce yourself. Just saying... Espcially given his coaching of her, and his not coming out to meet her. If he is single divorced guy, wouldn't he have the freedom to meetup for a sure thing like her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

lordmayhem said:


>


I thought this needed to be repeated.


----------



## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> I thought this needed to be repeated.


Not lost on me.


----------



## BrockLanders

I feel like you've kinda hit the wall, brotha. There's no more discovery to be had. You are going to have to make a major gut decision. I hope it works out for you guys as you both are well spoken individuals who seem very keen on the idea of a marriage and intact family with all members living under the same roof. I was unnecessaily harsh in other posts because of personal grudges I harbor. I apologize for that.

If you accept the testimony of your wife, move on. Stop the mental mastrbations of the what-ifs and move on. If you think there's something that has been omitted from the narrative, convey that feeling to your wife. What else can you really do?

Good luck to both of you.


----------



## Harken Banks

Shaggy said:


> for a sure thing like her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ouch.


----------



## Acabado

SomedayDig said:


> I'm nobody here but I'd suggest both of you, HB and AMU take a break from this site for a bit.
> 
> Talk. Openly. Honestly.
> 
> HB, I hope you nor AMU takes this wrong, as I'm really trying to come from a decent place here: AMU, please don't feel like this is a court room you're in. HB is your husband. Talk to him as the man you married. The man you fell in love with. Look at him. Like really look at him and feel that.
> 
> This isn't about beyond a reasonable doubt sh_t. This is about love. F'n LOVE people. Do you love HB? If so, drop every ounce of ego that might be blocking you from telling every absolute and honest truth you hold inside.
> 
> You have ALL of the pieces to the puzzle. You can put it together. HB has maybe 40 out of the 300. He's just trying to put it together and really understand this.
> 
> Sorry for being sappy and whatnot, but I just had the most incredible night with Regret. We're in a pretty good place right now. I want that for others who are working on reconciliation. With all my heart.


Worth reread.


----------



## Shaggy

Harken Banks said:


> Ouch.


Not meant to hurt, you know that. But obviously she was throwing herself at him on texts, and how much she would do with him, so from his view she would be a sure thing.

I do think you should run a check on him, find out his marital status and if he has an SO. Guy sounds like a real player.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

Appreciated. You are not telling me anything I do not already know in the first paragraph. As for the second, I don't see it as my concern. You could wallpaper the world with sh*tburgers.


----------



## Entropy3000

ItMatters said:


> There are way to many big words in that response...


Perpetually obfuscating.


----------



## warlock07

Harken Banks said:


> No. He's just a nice guy whose wife left him for no reason after 25 years. My wife told me.


Check his story out if you can Harken..


----------



## Entropy3000

SUMMATION

Ok so I made it through the whole thread. Through all the riddles and chaff and obfuscation and playful references to The Dude. Pay no attention to the man behind the beach blanket. 

Cutting through all this it still comes down to some very basic things.

Boundaries. Yeah I know recurring theme for infidelity. Go figure. 

For the first post it seemed absurd to me that he was ok with the ex BF. Then he is just fine with her having close male friends. Well all kibitzing aside, she has proved that she in particualr should not have close male friends. So he is unclear still what his true boundaries are with himself and his wife. He refuses for most of this thread to "spy". So he sets a boundary their. He also decides he will just trust her. Yes he sees the error in this eventually. Good deal.

Whether there was genital penetration or oral gratification or not is blurred. I don't think he knows and maybe never will.

Does this really matter?

I think HB with the confessions of AMU on just what she admits to is enough to conclude that she was purposely unfaithful to her husband repeatedly. The lies themselves are a manifestation of unfaithfuless.
She had / has a relationship with another man that is emotionally and sexually based. They had intimate secrets together. They conspired against her husband.

I say this even with the lack of any real defined boundaries that they have agreed upon.

Driving eight hours to meet an old BF.

Late walks on the beach with a single guy with blankets. 

Sexting.

Lying. Trickle truth.

Conspiracy to commit adultry.

Sexual letter(s).

Discussing intimate details about their relationships and sexual desires.

On and on.

Did they have sex? Close enough. But that is just my opinion. It is also not a court of law.

The problem is that he really does not know if he has the whole truth. Lies will do that. He also has to come to grips with what he does know. There is nothing trivial about it. It is a deep betrayal.

Best of luck.


----------



## AMU

chapparal said:


> I thought this needed to be repeated.


When you reposted this last night, did you do so to remind him of the right side? Be weary? He is sure that is what you meant - that it was a word of caution. I admit I read it a more hopeful way, to mean that maybe HB could try to look at our situation as now on the left side of the chart. 

I recognize the right side - fully. Embarrassed to say, been there. I'm not proud of that - I'm deeply regretful for all that I've put HB through and the deep emotional pain he has experienced and is experiencing as a result. And I know it's all words, especially to all of you, but I'm working hard and want reconciliation with my husband. Even if you meant what he believes you did, I will share that I want to be on the left side of that chart - that's where my head and heart are 100%.


----------



## Chaparral

AllMessedUp said:


> When you reposted this last night, did you do so to remind him of the right side? Be weary? He is sure that is what you meant - that it was a word of caution. I admit I read it a more hopeful way, to mean that maybe HB could try to look at our situation as now on the left side of the chart.
> 
> I recognize the right side - fully. Embarrassed to say, been there. I'm not proud of that - I'm deeply regretful for all that I've put HB through and the deep emotional pain he has experienced and is experiencing as a result. And I know it's all words, especially to all of you, but I'm working hard and want reconciliation with my husband. Even if you meant what he believes you did, I will share that I want to be on the left side of that chart - that's where my head and heart are 100%.



No I wasn't warning him, but I did want him to realize there are tools to help him. He sees first hand what is going on. There is no way for us to acertain truth here. That is why so many posts go off the rails relying on their own experience. 

In a debate on texting, emailg etc. an "expert" claimed that in a converstaion 80% of the information exchanged was conveyed visually, the rest verbally.

It is up to you to convince your husband of your sincerity. I pray/hope you are sincere and that you can convince him of it.


----------



## Harken Banks

AllMessedUp said:


> When you reposted this last night, did you do so to remind him of the right side? Be weary? He is sure that is what you meant - that it was a word of caution. I admit I read it a more hopeful way, to mean that maybe HB could try to look at our situation as now on the left side of the chart.
> 
> I recognize the right side - fully. Embarrassed to say, been there. I'm not proud of that - I'm deeply regretful for all that I've put HB through and the deep emotional pain he has experienced and is experiencing as a result. And I know it's all words, especially to all of you, but I'm working hard and want reconciliation with my husband. Even if you meant what he believes you did, I will share that I want to be on the left side of that chart - that's where my head and heart are 100%.


I did not bring this up and I took Chap's post more the way he described it just now than as AllMessedUp did. Long way to go.


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> I did not bring this up and I took Chap's post more the way he described it just now than as AllMessedUp did. Long way to go.


And we are all hoping you can make it and find things can be even better than before. Much better.


----------



## happyman64

> *He clearly enjoys sharing all with you.* And makes it sounds as if it was an intensely sexual relationship - the majority of our conversations were about day to day life.


AMU,

A word to the wise. HB is clearly not enjoying any of this process.

I know you are both hurting. And he is spreading his pain through this forum which happens quite often.

But, NO, he is not enjoying this. And I think you know this too.

HM64


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks, Chap. Pretty clear the guy's a sh*tburger. Coached my wife on how to hide the affair from the outset and when I first said "hey!" counseled her that "the best defense is a good offense." Great guy. Unfortunately, my wife took this advice to heart and went into attack, blameshift, and deflection mode.
> 
> Talked to IC about PTSD today. A start.


HB,

Is the POSOM an attorney as well?


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

AMU, it's pretty clear from what we've seen and what we've been told that you aren't giving any weight to your husband's feelings. Your insensitivity is going to be the death knell for this reaationship if you don't change course. Your sincerity and remorse won't be accepted at face value if there isn't some genuine empathy as well.


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> No. He's just a nice guy whose wife left him for no reason after 25 years. My wife told me.


No. He really not that nice if he is coming onto a married woman and engaging in behavior that can destroy someone's marriage.....


----------



## Harken Banks

happyman64 said:


> HB,
> 
> Is the POSOM an attorney as well?


No. He's in sales. I expect everyone would have finally given up on this thread if the answer had been yes. 

Thanks for introducing "POSOM" to the thread -my favorite acronym on these boards.


----------



## Chaparral

happyman64 said:


> No. He really not that nice if he is coming onto a married woman and engaging in behavior that can destroy someone's marriage.....


Don't beat around the bush, by definiton he is a snake.

By his own actions with a married woman, nothing he told her can be taken as truth.

With all his effort, there is a reason he did not take advantage of a trip to hook up. Still married? Girlfriend? Other fish on the line? Just likes playing people? Fishing for pctures to post on the internet? 

He needs schooled in any case.


----------



## iheartlife

happyman64 said:


> No. He really not that nice if he is coming onto a married woman and engaging in behavior that can destroy someone's marriage.....


I was hoping HB was being ironic when he wrote that post.


----------



## Chaparral

iheartlife said:


> I was hoping HB was being ironic when he wrote that post.


LOL I am sure he was, but someone, ahem, got played like a teenager. (no offense intended)


----------



## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> LOL I am sure he was, but someone, ahem, got played like a teenager. (no offense intended)


Maybe a little snarky and derisive too. Not kind, but wasn't feeling charitable.


----------



## iheartlife

chapparal said:


> LOL I am sure he was, but someone, ahem, got played like a teenager. (no offense intended)


I will tell you, reading posts by HB are like reading tea leaves. (no offense intended)


----------



## Harken Banks

For context, I had to listen AllMessedUp tell me for months what a nice guy POSOM was, that he was going through a tough time with the divorce and offering some really good advice on how to make things better with us, and that she thought it would be great if we could meet some day. I have some dark fantasies about that meeting.


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> For context, I had to listen AllMessedUp tell me for months what a nice guy POSOM was, that he was going through a tough time with the divorce and offering some really good advice on how to make things better with us, and that she thought it would be great if we could meet some day. I have some dark fantasies about that meeting.


I am sure she believed it at the time. The question is does she see him for the player he turned out to be? Player, snake, womanizer, whatever.

Someday Dig knows how to talk to Posoms, maybe he could start a service.


----------



## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> I am sure she believed it at the time. The question is does she see him for the player he turned out to be? Player, snake, womanizer, whatever.


Believed that he was helping our marriage by telling her he has and acts on naughty thoughts about her and then giving her the graphic play-by-play? Fog can't be that thick.


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> Believed that he was helping our marriage by telling her he has and acts on naughty thoughts about her and then giving her the graphic play-by-play? Fog can't be that thick.


The fogs I've seen around here? Don't bet on it. But his MO didn't start out like that. No player just walks up to a mark and just asks her for a ________ right?

There are web sites on line for the specific purpose of teaching men how to pick up married women if you would like to google it.

There is a post on a thread here by a guy that only picked up married women because it was so easy and he did not have to worry about it getting back to his wife. Of course he thought they were fools. I thought I had it bookmarked but I can't find it.


----------



## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> The fogs I've seen around here? Don't bet on it. But his MO didn't start out like that. No player just walks up to a mark and just asks her for a ________ right?
> 
> There are web sites on line for the specific purpose of teaching men how to pick up married women if you would like to google it.
> 
> There is a post on a thread here by a guy that only picked up married women because it was so easy and he did not have to worry about it getting back to his wife. Of course he thought they were fools. I thought I had it bookmarked but I can't find it.


You are right. I leapt ahead a bit. And that seems to be what happened. I just have a hard time believing that when the conversations had reached that point my wife was telling me something she thought I should believe.

OK, I started it when I could not resist the nice guy remark, and that was not kind. Played like a teenager had a bit more sting. We have probably gone far enough for now with rubbing anyone's nose in it.


----------



## MattMatt

Harken Banks said:


> Believed that he was helping our marriage by telling her he has and acts on naughty thoughts about her and then giving her the graphic play-by-play? Fog can't be that thick.


It can be even thicker. Honestly.


----------



## TBT

Harken Banks said:


> For context, I had to listen AllMessedUp tell me for months what a nice guy POSOM was, that he was going through a tough time with the divorce and offering some really good advice on how to make things better with us, and that she thought it would be great if we could meet some day. I have some dark fantasies about that meeting.


The scenarios we offer up sometimes in order to protect the image we have of ourselves as good and decent people in these kind of situations can sometimes border on the ridiculous.


----------



## MattMatt

TBT said:


> The scenarios we offer up sometimes in order to protect the image we have of ourselves as good and decent people in these kind of situations can sometimes border on the ridiculous.


Even good and decent people can suddenly find themselves in a pretty despicable situation, thinking: "How in the heck did I get here?"


----------



## Harken Banks

Chap, I did that Google search. It would not have occurred to me to think that way, but makes a lot of sense when you see it.


----------



## iheartlife

Fvstringpicker likely has a 'how to'. Said without irony, no offense intended.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TBT

MattMatt said:


> Even good and decent people can suddenly find themselves in a pretty despicable situation, thinking: "How in the heck did I get here?"


Yeah,I agree,but I think when they are thinking "How in the heck did I get here?" even good people want to mitigate the event to others.


----------



## Harken Banks

TBT said:


> Yeah,I agree,but I think when they are thinking "How in the heck did I get here?" even good people want to mitigate the event to others.


Our character is defined by our actions, not our anguish.


----------



## iheartlife

Harken Banks said:


> Our character is defined by our actions, not our anguish.


Well, that is the BS motto, mantra, slogan, aphorism. At least the ones who are equally disgusted by revenge affairs.


----------



## iheartlife

sorry, I wasn't thinking about your situation specifically when I typed that.


----------



## Harken Banks

Suppose we all project a bit in this place.


----------



## happyman64

You are welcome for POSOM.

And yes HB. Definitely snarky and derisive. Not bad for a lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

I don't know if this applies but I found this in my favorites, posted by Morituri:

Originally Posted by Stephanie Anderson, Editor-in-Chief, Marriage Sherpa 

3 Ways to Erase Post-Affair Anger

Have you been cheated on and since turned into an “angry” person?

The majority of people who have been cheated on will experience anger as of the many emotions they feel after finding out about their spouse’s affair. And for some, they find that, where they were once a happy person, they now feel angry all the time—and people are noticing.

Today’s blog will help you, if you’ve been cheated on, to defuse post-affair anger 3 different ways, as well as offer an explanation for why anger is lingering. And if you haven’t been cheated on but still experience bouts of anger in your relationship with your spouse, the same tips can help you, as well. Read on…

Why Post-Affair Anger May Linger

You’ve been cheated on—you have every right to be angry. For your spouse to betray you by developing a sexual relationship with someone else is the worst kind of double-cross.

You’re hurt, humiliated—and feel a deep sense of anger that your spouse could do this to you, and that anger doesn’t seem to let go. It’s tearing you apart inside, literally, causing sleepless nights, changed appetite and hostile, negative thoughts.

Anger is a normal emotion and nothing to be ashamed about. We all experience anger at times, unless you’re a saint. But if anger is clinging to your life and coloring your world a dark shade of gray, you need to find a way to let it go.

If it is the result of your spouse’s betrayal, the betrayal itself may have taken place months ago, but the anger still lingers today. There’s a point where your anger can become chronic—a bad habit—and you become what people refer to as an “angry person.”

One explanation for why anger can become chronic is because there is some issue that remains unresolved. It could be that your spouse is not being remorseful or hasn’t completely cut ties with the paramour. Or, it could be that you have not given yourself the time, space and attention to work through and process all of your negative emotions.

After you found out about your spouse’s affair, have you:

1- Been acknowledging and working through the post-affair anger?

2- Trying to ignore, sidestep or otherwise tamp down those angry feelings?

3- Allowing the angry thoughts and emotions to take over, unchallenged?

If you are working through the anger, then you are on track for being yourself once again, taking pleasure in life and feeling positive.

But if you have been ignoring your anger, it remains below the surface, festering and growing. If anger has taken over and become chronic—and you allow this state to go on—then you are heading into becoming an angry person who is recognized for their anger instead of for your true, underlying personality.

Next, I’ll share with you how to defuse anger so you can begin to heal.

The 3 Different Ways to Defuse Anger

If you have tried to ignore anger in hopes it goes away, or allowed it to invade your life to the point that it defines you, I want you to try any or all of the following three methods for defusing anger. When you’re caught up in the post-affair, emotional maelstrom—you need a life buoy to cling to until you get to safety. These methods will help pull you safely from the turmoil you currently find yourself in to a place where you can once again feel solid ground beneath your feet.

Anger Defuser #1: React to Angry Thoughts Immediately

When you experience an angry or hostile thought, don’t let it slip past without a reprimand or challenge of some kind. Otherwise, angry thoughts can begin to feel a little too comfortable invading your mind and hijacking your emotions any time they like.

Angry thoughts serve a purpose—to let you know that something isn’t sitting right with you—so acknowledge that, but also challenge the thought itself: on what basis is this thought coming forward? Is it steeped in truth, or the work of imagination? Is it something that is true all the time, or in just one or two instances?

Anger Defuser #2: Cool Down Using Distractions

When you feel angry thoughts taking over, distract yourself with something else. Some people swear by exercise, working up a sweat and letting the anger ebb away. Others pick up a book, turn on the television, or cook. It’s difficult to focus on angry thoughts when your attention is needed elsewhere. And it is much more pleasant to focus on something that makes you happy until the anger passes.

Anger Defuser #3: Catch Anger Early

Often, we allow anger to simmer and then it boils over into a rage. At that point, the horse is out of the barn and difficult to lead back.

When you feel anger simmering, write out what is going on inside instead of waiting for it to build and then lashing out. Most people have a negative feeling about themselves after lashing out in anger, and you do not want to heap more negative feelings on yourself as you are trying to heal from post-affair pain or otherwise work toward saving your marriage.

My best to you as you work to defuse anger and heal.


----------



## costa200

Have been absent from this thread since i see Harken all bent on R and didn't want to put a downer on that, but i must say that some of the guys in here, when putting advice on a serious situation like this should actually read what he and his wife wrote and not keep asking him over and over the same crap. 

If you can't be bothered to read back then at least be careful when launching accusations. The thread is pretty clear about what went on but people keep jumping from the first post to the last. 

Remember that this is not a soap opera novel. This is the life of a real man and his wife.


----------



## SomedayDig

costa200 said:


> Have been absent from this thread since i see Harken all bent on R and didn't want to put a downer on that, but i must say that some of the guys in here, when putting advice on a serious situation like this should actually read what he and his wife wrote and not keep asking him over and over the same crap.
> 
> If you can't be bothered to read back then at least be careful when launching accusations. The thread is pretty clear about what went on but people keep jumping from the first post to the last.
> 
> Remember that this is not a soap opera novel. This is the life of a real man and his wife.


Sounds like a familiar sentiment in my thread. Read the story in its entirety if you truly want to "help". Rehashing over and over when if one reads the first 10 pages of a 30 page thread, you'd know the answers.

Then again this is the internet and most of us are here for immediate gratification


----------



## Harken Banks

Entropy3000 said:


> SUMMATION
> 
> There is nothing trivial about it. It is a deep betrayal.
> 
> Best of luck.


Thanks, E3000. Pretty much captures it. Others have too. Re-reading tonight.


----------



## Chaparral

How are you doing Harken? Update?


----------



## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> How are you doing Harken? Update?


Not so much to tell. Probably about what everyone would expect. Still trying to figure out how to send you pics of the '72.


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> Not so much to tell. Probably about what everyone would expect. Still trying to figure out how to send you pics of the '72.


If you figure out how to post picks let me know.

I can't make my computer do anything. That's why I have a computer junkyard.


----------



## SomedayDig

You need to have your photos "hosted" by some website to post them here. A site like photobucket or something like it. Then, when you post in advanced, you'll see a little portrait picture thingie (tech talk just stay with me). You'll need to go to your hosted pic and copy the address in the addy bar...then in the 'Go Advanced' section and the portrait thingie (I know I'm leaving ya's behind with this Star Trek like speak) and copy it into the pop up when you click the icon.

It's simple.

Kinda.

If you've done it before.


----------



## Harken Banks

Where we are: We’re working on it. Thanks for all your help. Sometimes it is incredibly difficult. Others disarmingly effortless.

About a week after the July disclosures, after taking some time to absorb and process, I did a sort of 360 panoramic on what had transpired, where we were, the girls, their futures, my wife, what at that moment I believed she wanted, what I wanted. I remember, we were at a local annual festival with the kids. Rides, cotton candy, fried food. Good stuff. But the situation was a mess. Everyone was hurting. We were all kind of adrift and rudderless. I remember feeling that day that I was finding my footing, that it was my responsibility to be bigger than the insult and injury, to absorb those along with the difficult realization that my wife whose faithfulness I had never questioned had gone hard, and in a very sexual way, after another guy –that that was part of her being human and given to the same temptations and weaknesses as the rest of us, and that I would have to find the maturity to manage and accept that new understanding. I remember inhaling deeply and feeling that I was standing taller than I had. And I said to her that if this was all there was, we could get through it. That we would get through it. I remember holding her as she held on to me in that moment in the afternoon in the fair ground. I think we had maybe a few good days after that. Things have happened since that have caused me to question the clarity and sense of purpose I felt that day.

It is a beautifully clear September morning. The sky is a still, infinite blue. The ocean is bluer and shimmering. The grass and trees are green. The dog is asleep at my feet. The kids at school. I am where I want to be. AllMessedUp is on the tarmac in Chicago, on her way to HQ for a week. I think she is where she wants to be too.


----------



## happyman64

> I think she is where she wants to be too.
> ***************


Do not question or guess at what she is thinking. Ask her if that is where she wants to be.

You two have been through a lot over the years.

If you two still have a shred of respect for each other and your marriage then you have the honest, open conversation of where you two are heading in your own lives and if you two can still live those lives together as a married couple.

A couple that wants be married to each other because you love each other and you can both be faithful, respectful and honest with each other.

HM64


----------



## Harken Banks

happyman64 said:


> Do not question or guess at what she is thinking. Ask her if that is where she wants to be.
> 
> You two have been through a lot over the years.
> 
> If you two still have a shred of respect for each other and your marriage then you have the honest, open conversation of where you two are heading in your own lives and if you two can still live those lives together as a married couple.
> 
> A couple that wants be married to each other because you love each other and you can both be faithful, respectful and honest with each other.
> 
> HM64


Thanks, HM. Good advice. We have talked a lot about it. I was stunned to learn in late July, as we were together sifting through the debris, where her focus and intent were . She is very clearly where she wants to be.


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks, HM. Good advice. We have talked a lot about it. I was stunned to learn in late July, as we were together sifting through the debris, where her focus and intent were . She is very clearly where she wants to be.


Then I am truly saddened for you.

Because I know you have a very tough decision to make in the future.

Can I make one recommendation HB?

Just give her this week. No long emotional conversations.

Just a short the kids are great, the dog is great and I am fine.

Wait until she is back home for anything deeper. I sorta know where you are. My mother wanted more in her career and took the chance. She left my Dad behind and us kids too!

My Dad let her. He told her if that is what she wanted who was he to stop her.

My Mom returned after 6 months. Her and my Dad started their own business together. She said it was the best decision she ever made.

I was young but I remember asking my Dad if Mom was coming home. He was always honest and said he did not know. I asked if he was scared or sad and he always said no. I really do not think he ever was.

By the way their business was very successful, they still work part time at the age of 72 and just celebrated 51 years of marriage.

Never be scared, Never be sad. 

HM64


----------



## Harken Banks

I'll reserve the place where I allow some sentiment and tears. Not so much for myself. You have followed the thread. You know she has travelled a lot for all of our marriage. She gets a lot out of it. Financially, we are fine without it and I think would be wealthier without it. That was not the case when we were first together. The travel never bothered me and tt would concern me a lot less now if not for the extracurriculars. And the reality is we have 4 beautiful little girls to raise and take care of and we can and should do much better by them.


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> I'll reserve the place where I allow some sentiment and tears. Not so much for myself. You have followed the thread. You know she has travelled a lot for all of our marriage. She gets a lot out of it. Financially, we are fine without it and I think would be wealthier without it. That was not the case when we were first together. The travel never bothered me and tt would concern me a lot less now if not for the extracurriculars. And the reality is we have 4 beautiful little girls to raise and take care of and we can and should do much better by them.


My wife and I have 3 girls (18,12,11).

We sacrifice everything for them so we can give them the best education and experiences.

My wife and I chose for her to stay home when our 2nd was born because we felt the sacrifice of one income would be better for them and it has.

There have been no fancy vacations or cars. All our resources have been poured into their well being and education.

In fact when we took our oldest to college orientation in Boston I was laughing too myself and my wife asked what was so funny I said to her "Do you realize the last time you or I were alone in a hotel room you were pregnant with Tara (our oldest daughter)"

So in these 18 years we decided to live for our kids as well as each other.

My wife and I always felt that was what marriage was all about.

Some people either forget that or get selfish as they get older HB. Some people just think "They can have it all!"

But that notion very rarely works out.

Peace to you and the September sky in NY is very blue here as well this morning.

Your entire family is in my prayers and I wish safe travels for All Messed Up.

HM64


----------



## Harken Banks

Boston in the Fall. As a college freshman, no less. Fantastic!


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> Boston in the Fall. As a college freshman, no less. Fantastic!


BU and she is loving it. And her boyfriend (Sophomore) goes to BC.

How convenient. 

She is having an experience that she will never forget.

I am happy for her.


----------



## Harken Banks

happyman64 said:


> BU and she is loving it. And her boyfriend (Sophomore) goes to BC.
> 
> How convenient.
> 
> She is having an experience that she will never forget.
> 
> I am happy for her.


HM, just reading your tell brings the same tight anticipation and excitement I felt every fall 20 or so years ago. If I may make a suggestion, road trip!

Oh, and when you go, hit me up for leads on watering holes and brunch spots.


----------



## EI

Harken Banks said:


> Boston in the Fall. As a college freshman, no less. Fantastic!


No, Harken, it's Boston in the springtime................ 


Please Come To Boston - YouTube


----------



## Harken Banks

happyman64 said:


> So in these 18 years we decided to live for our kids as well as each other.
> 
> My wife and I always felt that was what marriage was all about.


Captures it. Sometimes it takes me a read and a few re-reads.


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> HM, just reading your tell brings the same tight anticipation and excitement I felt every fall 20 or so years ago. If I may make a suggestion, road trip!
> 
> Oh, and when you go, hit me up for leads on watering holes and brunch spots.


Will do HB. Parents weekend is Oct. 19th.

Keep your chin up......


----------



## Harken Banks

happyman64 said:


> Will do HB. Parents weekend is Oct. 19th.
> 
> Keep your chin up......


"Chin up, you'll get through this just fine" were the exact words I received from an old Boston friend (now divorced, 3 children, very happy) in May after we had a brief catch up in which he caught a glimpse of our interaction.


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> "Chin up, you'll get through this just fine" were the exact words I received from an old Boston friend (now divorced, 3 children, very happy) in May after we had a brief catch up in which he caught a glimpse of our interaction.


See, your friends knows you better than me and we both agree no matter what happens you will be fine.

I honestly think it is AllMessedUp that is going to lose HB.

But that is of course my opinion. Let me know how the week goes for you.


----------



## Harken Banks

Zanna said:


> I believe that I am.
> 
> You lied about seeing your ex-GF prior to the time you admitted to. Admitted you enjoyed the ego stroke. Your wife did not know about 8 months of contact. What shall we call it then?
> 
> There is hurt on both sides.
> 
> Does that excuse her cheating? No. That is not what I am saying at all.
> 
> But I am saying that boundaries need to be established on both sides. I'm not one to stand up for a WS and that's not what i'm doing but I am saying that you need to listen to her as well.
> 
> My H had an affair. He was 100% to blame for that choice. Always will be. But when he explained how that he felt unappreciated and unloved prior, that was something that needed to change going forward.
> 
> My point is that for R, she needs to have her feelings heard as well.
> 
> If she uses what happend with your ex-GF to blame you for her affair, well then that is not acceptable.
> 
> But affairs don't happen in a vacuum. Unless we're talking about serial cheaters. I don't understand those types at all.


I agree with almost all of this, especially the 3rd to last paragraph. Very insightful.

I did not lie to my wife about contact with or seeing Old GF. Yes, I thought I could meet Old GF for a drink without telling her, and that was very seriously wrong. I did not disclose the contact, but I did not hide it either. It was wrong. When asked I answered honestly and directly. That does not make it alright. I am not asking for absolution. And the ego stroke stuff was more sophomoric than I think has come through. 

I hurt my wife. In ways and to a degree I was not aware of until very recently. I was a jerk. I regret my decisions and actions.

For what it is worth, AMU had long been in contact with old boyfriends. To what extent I do not know and had never inquired. It had never occurred to me to object. I had mostly avoided old flames. The idea of engaging in an affair had never crossed my mind. My therapist asked early in my counseling, before all of this mess, if I had thought about having an affair and I replied “I miss affection and companionship, but I can’t see how having an affair would improve anything.”


----------



## Harken Banks

Also, some time in July, shortly after I first posted here, I asked my therapist to read these threads so that she would be able to hear the voice of my wife and and all of you without the filter of my read and to make more productive and efficient our time together. I pay her for the time it takes.


----------



## Gabriel

It would be very interesting to hear a therapist's take on all of this. Let us know what he/she says, if you are willing.


----------



## Harken Banks

Some of it has come through on these pages. The upshot, I think, is that we won't move forward together while we are comparing pains and past wrongs.


----------



## SomedayDig

You hit that right outta the park HB.


----------



## Chaparral

If you have time could you comment on the progress or lack there of. Best of luck by the way.


----------



## Harken Banks

Mary Ellen Moffat
Jaws: She broke my heart - YouTube


----------



## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> lack there of


----------



## alte Dame

Sorry HB


----------



## SomedayDig

Walk With Me in Hell

I'm right there with ya HB. So are a lot of others. But just remember that midget lady in Poltergiest and go to the light.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> Walk With Me in Hell
> 
> I'm right there with ya HB. So are a lot of others. But just remember that midget lady in Poltergiest and go to the light.


Ya know, Dig, at not quite 5 feet tall, I'll have to decide whether that offends me or not. ;-)

But, rest assured, those who know me well know that what I lack in height, I more than make up for in "spunk!" . LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

I'm sorry EI...I should have said little people.


----------



## EI

SomedayDig said:


> I'm sorry EI...I should have said little people.


I was kidding..... Not about the being under 5' tall part..... and certainly not about the "spunk" part, but it takes a lot more than a few "short" jokes to offend me! Otherwise, I sure as heck wouldn't be posting on TAM...... :-/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Yes. Some of these TAM people can be pretty mean. Quite nasty if you ask me. I don't know how I keep coming here day after day.



sarcasm people. sarcasm!


----------



## Harken Banks

Thanks guys, from both of us, for the sentiment and concern. It's touching and it makes a difference. 

Hey, Dig. A person's a person no matter how small. What's the matter with you?


----------



## SomedayDig

I don't know HB. Could be the John Daniels I'm having with dinner! Cracking myself up while Regret just looks at me and the cats wonder exactly what you wonder!


----------



## EI

Sorry for the thread jack Harken! :-/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

What I really meant to say, Harken, is how are you and the lovely Mrs. Banks?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

One year ago today, I was in the same place. Only I did not know it. Still, here and happy with 4 girls at the mountain.


----------



## EI

Harken Banks said:


> One year ago today, I was in the same place. Only I did not know it. Still, here and happy with 4 girls at the mountain.


And, Mrs. Banks............???


----------



## Harken Banks

EI said:


> And, Mrs. Banks............???


You might know better than me. Doing her best, I am sure.

Being on the mountain was never her favorite thing. But she has made the effort, for which I am grateful. She was up 3 days at the beggining of the week (we even took a few runs together Monday while I played hookie from my coaching gig) and has plans to come back tonight for the weekend. I am looking forward to that. She also spent much of yesterday looking at tile for the bathrooms and laundry room so that we can finally complete the house project. I am grateful for that as well.

For my part, I was going to try to resist the impulse to air my emotions here. I slipped up a bit at 7:15. I apologize to AMU for that. While I enjoy hearing from you and the interaction here, I am now going back to trying to honor her very sensible request.


----------



## happyman64

Ahh HB. I am glad you are with your girls. But they deserve their mother as well.

Just wanted to wish you well.


----------



## EI

Harken Banks said:


> You might know better than me. Doing her best, I am sure.


I'm sorry, HB. I just keep hoping and praying that things are going to turn around for the two of you.... and your 4 precious little girls. I don't think I've ever made it a secret on TAM that I have my favorites..... those whom I hope and pray, even if it appears to be against all odds, will find their way back together in a successful and happy marriage with one another. You and Mrs. HB have always been on my list. 

I have found both of you to be such kind, sensitive, warm and caring individuals. I wish you and your family only the very best.... 

Take care,
EI


----------



## DavidWYoung

I do not have any smart or witty things to say to say to this post. I do enjoy your sharing your pain because it mean's that I am not alone in this.

My IC say's that I suffered a trauma at a very young age and that I am stuck there. Strange that I will turn sixty soon, I don't feel it or look it, or think that way. Feel more like a twenty-five year old.

The point I am trying to make is, Thank you for sharing and I will stand by you. David


----------



## SomedayDig

Sometimes our stories weave into each other and the echoes ring like an orchestra in our ears. Maybe that is why, on occassion, we strive so hard to help another who is going through a similar crisis.

I too, suffered immense trauma as a child...as a teen...and then as an adult. Like you, David I sometimes see myself as that 12 year old kid who felt ashamed of my life. Other times I see myself as the awkward teen who was beaten down by a pretty bad dude of a step "father". And still other times I see myself as a young twenty something bound to a woman who was manipulative, controlling and dominating...and that was on her good days.

I'll turn 45 tomorrow and when I look in the mirror I will probably see that kid still. 

HB, take care of those girls. Ski. Smile. Love. Not necessarily in that order.


----------



## Chaparral

SomedayDig said:


> Sometimes our stories weave into each other and the echoes ring like an orchestra in our ears. Maybe that is why, on occassion, we strive so hard to help another who is going through a similar crisis.
> 
> I too, suffered immense trauma as a child...as a teen...and then as an adult. Like you, David I sometimes see myself as that 12 year old kid who felt ashamed of my life. Other times I see myself as the awkward teen who was beaten down by a pretty bad dude of a step "father". And still other times I
> see myself as a young twenty something bound to a woman who was manipulative, controlling and dominating...and that was on her good days.
> 
> I'll turn 45 tomorrow and when I look in the mirror I will probably see that kid still.
> 
> HB, take care of those girls. Ski. Smile. Love. Not necessarily in that order.


This reminded me of a Christian counselor I heard admonishing men to do everything in their power to keep their family together to keep their daughters from ending up in anew household with males who weren't their blood relatives. Listening to him really creeped me out.
Having a few beers with a state social worker after work was even worse several years ago.


----------



## AMU

So the downfall of our relationship continues. So many things have happened in the past two months. Marriage counseling since late Nov that I thought was going well until January. Our world has fallen apart since then. So many things have happened. I am at the mountain and found this exchange between HB and SayJellyBeans when I arrived. They have PM’d many times over the past year, she shared a picture of herself with him (he told me he thought she was beautiful) and now these texts and phone calls from last night. 

SJB 6:59 - working on it (sending a picture of her hand holding a glass of wine)

HB 7:05 - Mille grazia

HB 7:07 - Try that again, grazie. Driving and texting

HB 8:05 - I am almost there (to the mountain)

8:06 missed call from SJB to HB

SJB 8:07 - Just tried calling...

8:07 - 12 minute call from HB to SJB

8:20 - 2 min call from HB to SJB

HB 8:32 - F*ck. I have a crush on you. And we have never met. How did that happen?

SJB 8:35 - Connection. Attraction. You're cute. I'm cute. No real mystery baby.

HB 8:44 - You sell me short.

SJB 8:51 - Aw, I was teasing some. Sorry! (You're more than cute). FYI, I've moved on to vodka.  (sent a picture of her glass of vodka with her legs and bare feet showing)

HB 8:54 - Sorry. I didn't like what wrote last. At all. I am now passing through a town called Kingfield.

SJB 9:12 - You didn't like what?

HB 9:18 - What I wrote. Texting and driving. Mountain roads.

SJB 9:24 - "F*ck. I have a crush on you. And we have never met. How did that happen?" OR "You sell me short"?

HB 9:29 - The sell me short part. There is a f*ckload of snow here. Can't explain the excitement I get from just the snow banks.

SJB 9:33 - Sooo jealous. Get me up there!

SJB 9:52 - I'm only an accomplished beginner btw. We'd be on different runs…

HB 10:03 - Was going to send you some snow porn. And may still. Just the pictures are not coming together in a way to do it justice. Maybe tomorrow. There's nothing that makes my heart beat faster.

SJB 10:06 - Snow porn? Have never seen such a thing. I'd imagine it starts off cold, ends up sweaty and breathless.

HB 10:13 - For me it's just the huge banks and drifts, billowy tufts, and anticipation of tomorrow.

SJB 10:26 - Sounds amazing. I've never been much of a sportswoman, but about five years ago, I learned to ski and it changed me. I dream about it.

Heartwrenching stuff to read….
AMU


----------



## happyman64

Heart wrenching and not very cool.

Does he know you see these texts?

Is he trying to. purposely hurt you?


----------



## EI

I don't even know what to say....... And that's saying a lot....


----------



## Shaggy

Way across the boundary.


----------



## SomedayDig

HB...Man, after I spent 2 hours with that email I sent you guys the other day. F'ng seriously, man? Seriously?!

And I hope SJB doesn't find herself in my sights in this place again.


----------



## SomedayDig

chapparal said:


> This reminded me of a Christian counselor I heard admonishing men to do everything in their power to keep their family together to keep their daughters from ending up in anew household with males who weren't their blood relatives. Listening to him really creeped me out.
> Having a few beers with a state social worker after work was even worse several years ago.


I'm not a Christian counselor and I'm not admonishing anyone to do anything. As a matter of fact, if you knew HB you would know I'm talking about his kids. Take care of his kids. If I creep you out by what I wrote, tough sh-t. I thought I was being pretty nice.


----------



## Chaparral

SomedayDig said:


> I'm not a Christian counselor and I'm not admonishing anyone to do anything. As a matter of fact, if you knew HB you would know I'm talking about his kids. Take care of his kids. If I creep you out by what I wrote, tough sh-t. I thought I was being pretty nice.


You need to reread my post. What creeped me out was the stories the pastor was relating about abused step daughters. Likewise the social worker that I used to see after work occasionally.

I'm surpreised that in lieu of HB and Jellybeans obvious EA and fishing at minimum for a PA, you would skip to this.


----------



## SomedayDig

I did answer to their EA already and I apologize if I misread what you wrote. I'm sorry.


----------



## Aunt Ava

Sad, you now have a small taste of the pain he suffered through your affair.
I was under the impression that you were divorcing? If so, why are you monitoring his texts?
It is not for us to judge his texts as appropriate or not, he is moving on and he is an adult.


----------



## Aunt Ava

There seems to be some vital information missing....SomedayDig mentions an EA ....where, when, what...did I miss that? 
Several posts seem to be missing because I distinctly remember Harken posting they were divorcing. 
Sorry AMU, I just don't have much sympathy for you. It's almost karma.


----------



## Harken Banks

Ha ha! There's more to the story. AMU has wanted to make this war from the start. Her AP advised her that the best defense was a good offense. Advice she has taken to heart. For my part, i have just left my jaw hanging out there, sometimes quite literally. I am coaching now, but will take a few minutes to fill in a bit when I am off the hill. Skiing is stellar and the kids are having fun. Big smiles and face shots all around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

This has taken an awful turn. Sayjellybeans has helped a lot of people here. Now she seems to trying to lower allybabe_18's standard.

Am I mistaken? Is there more than one Jellybeans?

Haven't seen her posts in a while.

Shame on you Harken. Premonitions (my gut ) was right again. Damn it.

Prayers for your wife and daughters HB, they need them.


----------



## happyman64

Aunt Ava said:


> Sad, you now have a small taste of the pain he suffered through your affair.
> I was under the impression that you were divorcing? If so, why are you monitoring his texts?
> It is not for us to judge his texts as appropriate or not, he is moving on and he is an adult.


Aunt Ava

There is moving on and then there is being disrespectful.

If HB is moving on then that is his choice. But being hurtful is not necessary.

Lets see whay he has to say later.

But the real question is when do two people grow up, stop hurting each other and act more mature than their children???


----------



## bfree

sayjellybeans just deleted her thread.

I hope what I read is not true. I don't even want to believe that TAM brought two people together in an affair. That would be the ultimate kick in the nads.


----------



## jh52

happyman64 said:


> Aunt Ava
> 
> There is moving on and then there is being disrespectful.
> 
> If HB is moving on then that is his choice. But being hurtful is not necessary.
> 
> Lets see whay he has to say later.
> 
> But the real question is when do two people grow up, stop hurting each other and act more mature than their children???


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Couldn't say it any better!!!

Seems to be all about ME!!


----------



## Chaparral

Aunt Ava said:


> Sad, you now have a small taste of the pain he suffered through your affair.
> I was under the impression that you were divorcing? If so, why are you monitoring his texts?
> It is not for us to judge his texts as appropriate or not, he is moving on and he is an adult.


Sorry, but this sounds like you are promoting married men to have a revenge affair.


----------



## Chaparral

bfree said:


> sayjellybeans just deleted her thread.
> 
> I hope what I read is not true. I don't even want to believe that TAM brought two people together in an affair. That would be the ultimate kick in the nads.


The thread where she said her husband wanted a divorce because of her EA? That thread?


----------



## Chaparral

jh52 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Couldn't say it any better!!!
> 
> Seems to be all about ME!!


It has all the way along.


----------



## AMU

happyman64 said:


> Heart wrenching and not very cool.
> 
> Does he know you see these texts?
> 
> Is he trying to. purposely hurt you?


He does know I see them. As I said, I thought things were going well (at least OK - progress being made) until Jan. Jan 1st, our daughter's birthday and the anniversary of when we got engaged 13 years earlier, he sat across the table from me at our daughter's birthday lunch and said he didn't want to be married anymore (girls were downstairs at the restaurant playing video games). We had two cars at the mountain and I drove him alone that night (school the next morning) while he stayed there. I arrived home to a literal disaster - pipe burst upstairs in our house, ceiling had collapsed on the dining room table breaking it, 1-2 inches of water throughout first floor, over $100K damage. Next morning he comes home, stands in the house with me, says this is our house and our family and we'll make it work. MC session that day and we share all that has happened. Two weeks later, HB joins me in New Orleans for a business trip - he started drinking at 8 am on the first flight (8 hard alcohol drinks and 1/2 bottle of rye whiskey that I saw him drink that first day), he was a mess most of the 2 nights/three days and is was a horrible experience for both of us. MC session the day after we return and MC says she feels HB has one or both feet out of the marriage and suggests nesting (i.e. a shared location somewhere away from the home so we can do one week on, one week off with the girls while he figures out what he wants). He says he sees that as separation and the end. 

Bad weekend with a lot of yelling, a lot of awful things said about the affair in front of the kids and in MC session the next week, MC says she that although she had previously suggested nesting as a way to allow HB time to figure out what he wanted, at this point she felt the children were at risk and it was an unhealthy situation for them and we needed to do something else and again suggested nesting. HE said he saw that as separation and if that is what we were going to do, he would date other people. MC asked HB whether he would agree not to date other people and he said no, he saw that as the end and it would be time to move on and seek the affection and care elsewhere that he hadn’t been getting. She shrugged and said she didn’t know what else to suggest, since the only other option seemed to be to stop the nasty words and fighting and we had not been doing well at that. She also said that it didn’t make sense to continue to meet unless we both wanted to work on our relationship and left it at that – we kept the next meeting on the calendar and she said she’d see us next week unless we told her otherwise. 

HB left that session (we had different cars), didn't talk about what we were going to ultimately do - he went to lunch with his two best friends telling them we were separately. I called him that afternoon to ask him whether we could take the girls out to dinner, he said to go ahead since he had other things to do. Found that night he had reestablished the match.com account he had set up in October and sent five e-mails asking women out on coffee dates. The next night, he went on an actual date to a restaurant right next door to our house (we can't live there now because construction is still underway and the "old" part of the house we were living in is now also under repair for the water damage - fortunately now insurance is paying for a beautifully furnished rental) and then took her back to our house to show her around afterward. He then came home and slept in bed next to me, told me where he'd been (I had already searched his computer and knew) and said he'd delete the account. 

A week later when he was still conversing with his match.com "friends" I said that I couldn't continue to be under the same roof as someone who was pursuing other relationships - gave him another 5 days to stop and when he chose not to, I spent a week staying at his parents house as my "week off" (with a ton of time spent with the girls that week - he hired a sitter to take care of them from 7am until they got on the bus and again from 5:30-8:30 to get them home, fed and to bed while he did other things). I have continued to come to the mountain, have told him what I needed at this point - no more match.com, no more conversing with old girlfriend (forgot to mention that the week before Valentine's Day he got back in touch with her, spent 5 days in a row talking to her, including a 2.5 and a 1.5 hour conversation - gotta appreciate those phone records), getting some professional help. He is still very, very raw about the affair and lives it daily through words to me and others - I do truly want him to get help. And he needs the most help with his alcohol addiction, which has gotten worse and worse and worse - it has been an issue in our relationship for years and had resulted in a lot of anger from me - something I've been working on with an IC since October. 

Long summary I know - it has been a long road.


----------



## Aunt Ava

Harken, please don't text and drive. Nothing you can text is worth losing your life over.


----------



## BjornFree

chapparal said:


> This has taken an awful turn. Sayjellybeans has helped a lot of people here. Now she seems to trying to lower allybabe_18's standard.
> 
> Am I mistaken? Is there more than one Jellybeans?
> 
> Haven't seen her posts in a while.
> 
> Shame on you Harken. Premonitions (my gut ) was right again. Damn it.
> 
> Prayers for your wife and daughters HB, they need them.


Lets not jump to conclusions based on one post by a FWW( F being debatable).


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> You might know better than me. Doing her best, I am sure.
> 
> Being on the mountain was never her favorite thing. But she has made the effort, for which I am grateful. She was up 3 days at the beggining of the week (we even took a few runs together Monday while I played hookie from my coaching gig) and has plans to come back tonight for the weekend. I am looking forward to that. She also spent much of yesterday looking at tile for the bathrooms and laundry room so that we can finally complete the house project. I am grateful for that as well.
> 
> For my part, I was going to try to resist the impulse to air my emotions here. I slipped up a bit at 7:15. I apologize to AMU for that. While I enjoy hearing from you and the interaction here, I am now going back to trying to honor her very sensible request.


Jellybeans thinks they are separated. Doesn't look like it from this post a few days ago. LOL I'm guessing they are separated now.


----------



## EI

Aunt Ava said:


> Sad, you now have a small taste of the pain he suffered through your affair.
> I was under the impression that you were divorcing? If so, why are you monitoring his texts?
> It is not for us to judge his texts as appropriate or not, he is moving on and he is an adult.


You need to read the whole thread, and AMU's thread as well, because there is sooooooooo much more to this than what you appear to know of the situation.


----------



## Aunt Ava

chapparal said:


> Sorry, but this sounds like you are promoting married men to have a revenge affair.


No, not at all. I was under the impression they had decided to divorce. I am waiting to hear Harken's side before jumping to conclusions.


----------



## Chaparral

AMU said:


> He does know I see them. As I said, I thought things were going well (at least OK - progress being made) until Jan. Jan 1st, our daughter's birthday and the anniversary of when we got engaged 13 years earlier, he sat across the table from me at our daughter's birthday lunch and said he didn't want to be married anymore (girls were downstairs at the restaurant playing video games). We had two cars at the mountain and I drove him alone that night (school the next morning) while he stayed there. I arrived home to a literal disaster - pipe burst upstairs in our house, ceiling had collapsed on the dining room table breaking it, 1-2 inches of water throughout first floor, over $100K damage. Next morning he comes home, stands in the house with me, says this is our house and our family and we'll make it work. MC session that day and we share all that has happened. Two weeks later, HB joins me in New Orleans for a business trip - he started drinking at 8 am on the first flight (8 hard alcohol drinks and 1/2 bottle of rye whiskey that I saw him drink that first day), he was a mess most of the 2 nights/three days and is was a horrible experience for both of us. MC session the day after we return and MC says she feels HB has one or both feet out of the marriage and suggests nesting (i.e. a shared location somewhere away from the home so we can do one week on, one week off with the girls while he figures out what he wants). He says he sees that as separation and the end.
> 
> Bad weekend with a lot of yelling, a lot of awful things said about the affair in front of the kids and in MC session the next week, MC says she that although she had previously suggested nesting as a way to allow HB time to figure out what he wanted, at this point she felt the children were at risk and it was an unhealthy situation for them and we needed to do something else and again suggested nesting. HE said he saw that as separation and if that is what we were going to do, he would date other people. MC asked HB whether he would agree not to date other people and he said no, he saw that as the end and it would be time to move on and seek the affection and care elsewhere that he hadn’t been getting. She shrugged and said she didn’t know what else to suggest, since the only other option seemed to be to stop the nasty words and fighting and we had not been doing well at that. She also said that it didn’t make sense to continue to meet unless we both wanted to work on our relationship and left it at that – we kept the next meeting on the calendar and she said she’d see us next week unless we told her otherwise.
> 
> HB left that session (we had different cars), didn't talk about what we were going to ultimately do - he went to lunch with his two best friends telling them we were separately. I called him that afternoon to ask him whether we could take the girls out to dinner, he said to go ahead since he had other things to do. Found that night he had reestablished the match.com account he had set up in October and sent five e-mails asking women out on coffee dates. The next night, he went on an actual date to a restaurant right next door to our house (we can't live there now because construction is still underway and the "old" part of the house we were living in is now also under repair for the water damage - fortunately now insurance is paying for a beautifully furnished rental) and then took her back to our house to show her around afterward. He then came home and slept in bed next to me, told me where he'd been (I had already searched his computer and knew) and said he'd delete the account.
> 
> A week later when he was still conversing with his match.com "friends" I said that I couldn't continue to be under the same roof as someone who was pursuing other relationships - gave him another 5 days to stop and when he chose not to, I spent a week staying at his parents house as my "week off" (with a ton of time spent with the girls that week - he hired a sitter to take care of them from 7am until they got on the bus and again from 5:30-8:30 to get them home, fed and to bed while he did other things). I have continued to come to the mountain, have told him what I needed at this point - no more match.com, no more conversing with old girlfriend (forgot to mention that the week before Valentine's Day he got back in touch with her, spent 5 days in a row talking to her, including a 2.5 and a 1.5 hour conversation - gotta appreciate those phone records), getting some professional help. He is still very, very raw about the affair and lives it daily through words to me and others - I do truly want him to get help. And he needs the most help with his alcohol addiction, which has gotten worse and worse and worse - it has been an issue in our relationship for years and had resulted in a lot of anger from me - something I've been working on with an IC since October.
> 
> Long summary I know - it has been a long road.


You need to move on with divorce. Harken needs to get PTSD counseling and join AA.

PS, you and the girls also need counseling asap.


----------



## bfree

chapparal said:


> The thread where she said her husband wanted a divorce because of her EA? That thread?


Dig posted in her thread about forgiveness and when I clicked on it it was gone.


----------



## Chaparral

Aunt Ava said:


> No, not at all. I was under the impression they had decided to divorce. I am waiting to hear Harken's side before jumping to conclusions.


Do you have a source for that?


----------



## jh52

A very wise person told me recently that there are three stories to every couples problems:

1) his side
2) her side
3) the true story

Unfortunately none of us will ever know the true story.


----------



## Chaparral

_Quote:
Originally Posted by EI 
And, Mrs. Banks............??? 

You might know better than me. Doing her best, I am sure.

Being on the mountain was never her favorite thing. But she has made the effort, for which I am grateful. She was up 3 days at the beggining of the week (we even took a few runs together Monday while I played hookie from my coaching gig) and has plans to come back tonight for the weekend. I am looking forward to that. She also spent much of yesterday looking at tile for the bathrooms and laundry room so that we can finally complete the house project. I am grateful for that as well.

For my part, I was going to try to resist the impulse to air my emotions here. I slipped up a bit at 7:15. I apologize to AMU for that. While I enjoy hearing from you and the interaction here, I am now going back to trying to honor her very sensible request._

Doesn't sound separated a few days ago.


----------



## happyman64

And I will add that there is no room for alcohol or match.com in any relationship (good or bad) if both spouses are living under the same roof with children.

I am not judging AMU or HB.

But there are 4 little girls involved in this mess. If either spouse cannot control their temper, their emotions and their drinking when there are children involved then it is time for that spouse to get professional help to deal with those personal issues first.

And Reconciliation, Separation or Divorce takes a back seat until those personal issues are addressed.


----------



## B1

This FAMILY is at the cabin together, that doesn't sound like they are getting divorced to me. Affairs are wrong period, revenge affairs included. The kids don't deserve this. 

I realize some say karma, she deserves it etc. No, this family does not deserve this, she does not deserve this, the kids don't deserve this. They are STILL married and this is blatant cheating, and some are cheering this on like cheating is somehow ok now, that's just sad.


----------



## Harken Banks

Patience. Yes, we are separated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Aunt Ava

chapparal said:


> Do you have a source for that?


Can't find the post. Weird, because I distinctly remember it. Very sad situation, and I am very sorry for their daughters.


----------



## AMU

I want our marriage and always have - I love HB, want him and want our family. I feel like everything is spinning out of control and he doesn't see it - I truly believe the alcohol has a significant amount to do with it and is clouding his judgment. Even his parents see it (we spend the weekends at their condo at the mountain) - they told him he was unable to stay at their condo until he either agreed to see a psychiatrist or went to AA. And these are two people who drink very heavily themselves, so I was astonished when I learned about it.

I admit that I'm trying to assist in a situation over which I have little control. I reached out to his two best friends last week asking for their help and advice as to how to get things back on track. I reached out to Dig the night before last (Dig - you mentioned you sent something?? I didn't see it?) And stupidly, I reached out to sayjellybeans yesterday because I knew they had been e-mailing back and forth about her life after divorce, I knew he looked to her for advice "from the other perspective" since our EAs were similar. I was asking for her honest input in hopes she would offer my husband some guidance. Instead, she thought it would be a good opportunity to take advantage. He's on the mountain now coaching his kids, but I can see that they've share nine texts since he's been out.

What I hope for, and the reason I joined this forum in the first place, was to try to figure out a way to save our marriage, move forward and enjoy a life where we put each other first, where we love and cherish each other and create a happy home for our four beautiful little girls. 

AMU


----------



## Shaggy

I notice you seem to drive two cars everywhere. It's like you are two separate people and lives who run into each other all time. You are sharing the destinations but not the journey, and I mean that both literally and figuratively.

HBs alcohol consumption is far too high, he'll his consumption in NOLA is off the charts for even NOLA. Alcohol is a depressant. It does relax you etc, but is also a depressant that drains you and your spirit.


----------



## Gabriel

Wow, I just caught up. This is a total mess. 

Please, please, HB and AMU, just end this and get divorced already. Get your girls into therapy. What you are doing to them is practically abuse now. Put them ahead of your childish war and do what's right for once.

Grow the f*ck up.


----------



## seasalt

I have always thought that the PM feature on an anonymous forum about marriage was a perverse item and never enabled my profile to accept or send them. I also have never sent a friend request and thought long and hard before acknowledging them. Heck I don't even do likes to posts I really agree with except once by accident.

I'm not passing judgement on those who do use them and can appreciate how a friendship can be moved along by them but Mr. Banks' and Miss Bean's sure seemed inappropriate to me.

Just saying,

Seasalt


----------



## SomedayDig

AMU... I'm out showing houses til about 3pm or so. I will PM you the email I replied back to you with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BrockLanders

Its as if HB never really dealt with anything, he self medicated and he's never fully moved past the resentment stage. My heart goes out to both of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Acabado

Harken Banks said:


> Ha ha! There's more to the story. AMU has wanted to make this war from the start. Her AP advised her that the best defense was a good offense. Advice she has taken to heart. For my part, i have just left my jaw hanging out there, sometimes quite literally. I am coaching now, but will take a few minutes to fill in a bit when I am off the hill. Skiing is stellar and the kids are having fun. Big smiles and face shots all around.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's pathetic, Harken. I'm ashamed of you as I am of SayJellyBeans.

You are so lost man. Please Harken, start choosing better if not for you for your kids. Do things right.


----------



## Harken Banks

Ad-lib and responding as simply and succinctly as I can to the points as I remember them from reading on the chair lift:
1.	We are separated. Have been since mid-January. That was AMU’s idea. I tried to make the case against separation, but acknowledged that if she wanted to separate I could not stop her. I said that I thought the distance between us had been a big part of the problem and that I did not see how more distance, official and regimented distance, could improve our marriage. I also said that given what had happened over the past year, and my sense that I had been trying to hold on to something that was already gone, I saw separation as finality and a clear signal that it was time for me to start looking ahead instead of back. Yes, that if we were separating, I would start the process of meeting new people. Not jumping into bed or any relationship. Just getting used to talking to people again. 
2.	We have not slept in the same bed since separation in January. AMU gave me the schedule of on and off-weeks, and we have mostly lived by it, though we both try to pitch in for coverage as may be helpful. I consistently expressed my view that separation was a stark milestone on the road to the end of marriage. 
3.	She has been talking separation since October, maybe earlier. We were at lunch at the mountain sometime in January and she casually asked me when April vacation was. I said that I did not. She explained that she had been working on a schedule of week-on, week-off and I would have the girls for Feb vacation (which I did) and that for April vacation she wanted to take the girls on a vacation. I said I did not want separate vacations. She informed that that was not up to me. Turns out she has been talking to her Dad about going to Disney. Disney is a pretty big family event. A big event for the girls. I said I would like to go and would stay in a separate room if necessary. She said no, I was not welcome. It was difficult. I have never attempted to separate her from our children. This was not a first.
4.	The arguments in front of the girls are almost always instigated by AMU. I don’t want them, don’t start them, and rarely get a word in edgewise or even try. That has been the case for at least 6 months. When it starts, our girls plead with her to stop. Today at lunch even. I am too tired to fight and never had any appetite for it anyway.
5.	I have recently become aware that she has since August been sending selective histories to her family, my parents, our friends, and the parents of our children’s friends. This is war for her. 
6.	I received a note from my mom seemingly out of the blue several weeks ago, when I had not spoken to either of my parents in about 2 weeks stating that I was no longer welcome at their house. AMU had one of her let me tell you how awful HB conversations with my Mom the night before. My relationship with my Mom has been tense for some time. Largely, in my view, because I have been upset with the way she has been treating my Dad who had a severe stroke 7 years ago. AMU and I both have also expressed concern about my Mom’s alcohol consumption. And that has only exacerbated the tension between me and my Mom. Another story. 
7.	Yes, she has access to my accounts and all my passwords. Sometimes it seems she reads my communications in real time or even before I do. I realize that when we are separated and I am trying to look ahead, it may be appropriate to end that access, but I still have a very hard time with anything other than transparency. She has, in my view, repeatedly abused that access. Still, she has it.
8.	In the last several weeks she has stated on several occasions that she will sue for sole custody. I do not get it. I will not put our girls through a custody dispute. 
9.	I spent a fair amount of time last weeks gathering tax and financial information and returns for AMU at her request for her lawyer. She has always had full access to all my accounts and financial information. Always has. I have repeatedly stated that I believe we can and should do this without lawyers and without scorched earth. We can both work this out collaboratively and in the manner that is best for our children and both of us. She is a lawyer, her dad is a lawyer, her brother is a lawyer. I have no appetite for or interest in a fight. I’ll lay down if it comes to that. I have told her as much.
10.	She is not kind to me. That is as kindly as I can put it and a severe understatement. And it is not a plea for sympathy. I havfe no interest in the PR war. It has been simply mystifying to me. If AMU as she appears in these pages would once in a while occasion my life . . ..


----------



## Harken Banks

Also, B1 and Chap, AMU said she was coming back for the last weekend of vacation as I had written in a prior post, the one B1 quoted, and I was really looking forward to that, a possible warming I thought, but she did not come back, so it was just me and the girls for vacation week.


----------



## Chaparral

Looks like someone is lying.


----------



## Gabriel

I notice you are silent about sayjellybeans....


----------



## old timer

Damn - what a soap opera.

"As the Stomach Turns"

And I thought my situation was crazy.


----------



## Aunt Ava

From 1/28/2013 under CWI titled "and I feel fine"
This is the first post from the thread where I got the impression they were divorcing...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/66426-i-feel-fine.html



Harken Banks said:


> Tangled web; what you should know: when you or your spouse take that first step outside of your marriage, in all likelihood your marriage is over. Maybe it already was, and that’s why the first step. Maybe the first step was simply for the excitement of it and to see what would come next. What comes next is not pretty. There are some here who seem to demonstrate the strength and character to save the relationship. I would have thought that we were one of those couples. You should also know that there is a lot of denial in this process. Sheer unwillingness to face, let alone accept, the realities.


----------



## jh52

jh52 said:


> A very wise person told me recently that there are three stories to every couples problems:
> 
> 1) his side
> 2) her side
> 3) the true story
> 
> Unfortunately none of us will ever know the true story.


This is really right on now.


----------



## happyman64

AMU & HB



> I want our marriage and always have - I love HB, want him and want our family.


Those are AMU's words. Not HB's or anyone on TAM.

So why don't both of you make a pact this. Weekend.

No more lies to each other.

No more drinking.

No more blaming.

No. More separation.

No more arguments with each other in. Front of. The. Kids.

No. More texting or speaking to the opposite sex about the marriage.

And take 12. Months. To fix this train wreck you both. Have caused.

If you both stopped the. Childish. Behavior you could. Solve these issues.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

chapparal said:


> Looks like someone is lying.


I'd say both are using rhetoric to make themselves look better to their "audience."

I read both and they are telling the same story while casting blame on the other person.


> If you both stopped the. *Childish.* Behavior you could. Solve these issues.


Thank you, I'm new and didn't want to make this statement.


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## Harken Banks

Gabriel said:


> I notice you are silent about sayjellybeans....


I really do not know what your point is. I think the texts as transcribed by my wife are accurate. She did not play a role in the end of my marriage and I did not in hers. SJB and I corresponded, mostly sporadically, from the time I came to TAM. We both tried to help each other in understanding the issues in each other's marriages and how to put them back together and both cheerleaded hard for each other's spouses and marriages. In fact, SJB and Bandit were both instrumental 8 months ago in waking me up to the notion that I was oblivious to the nature and extent of my wife's deception. And they were right. My wife has read every communication. Probably read many of them before I did. Yesterday SJB informed me that my wife had been writing to her in response to messages SJB had sent me. I was not aware and it wasn't pretty. A now not unfamiliar pattern. Yesterday I called SJB for the first time and to apologize. We had not spoken or texted before. I think you have the background on separation and other basics. 

I like SJB. I think she has been unfairly attacked here.


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## Gabriel

Harken Banks said:


> I really do not know what your point is. I think the texts as transcribed by my wife are accurate. She did not play a role in the end of my marriage and I did not in hers. SJB and I corresponded, mostly sporadically, from the time I came to TAM. We both tried to help each other in understanding the issues in each other's marriages and how to put them back together and both cheerleaded hard for each other's spouses and marriages. In fact, SJB and Bandit were both instrumental 8 months ago in waking me up to the notion that I was oblivious to the nature and extent of my wife's deception. And they were right. My wife has read every communication. Probably read many of them before I did. Yesterday SJB informed me that my wife had been writing to her in response to messages SJB had sent me. I was not aware and it wasn't pretty. A now not unfamiliar pattern. Yesterday I called SJB for the first time and to apologize. We had not spoken or texted before. I think you have the background on separation and other basics.
> 
> I like SJB. I think she has been unfairly attacked here.


I think it's pretty clear you like SJB. I no longer care. This whole thread and saga has been one wordsmithing exercise after another, and I choose to no longer play.

Good luck.


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## bfree

Harken, if you and AMU put half as much effort into your marriage as you do dodging, weaving and posturing you might be staring at a happy intact family right now or at least a less broken one.


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## Harken Banks

Gabriel said:


> I think it's pretty clear you like SJB. I no longer care. This whole thread and saga has been one wordsmithing exercise after another, and I choose to no longer play.
> 
> Good luck.


Gabriel, I like you, I think you are good guy, but you seem to insist on playing the shmegegge.


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## Harken Banks

bfree said:


> Harken, if you and AMU put half as much effort into your marriage as you do dodging, weaving and posturing you might be staring at a happy intact family right now or at least a less broken one.


My wife is a good person, but not to me. I think that won't change.


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## Aunt Ava

Harken, please stop drinking to excess. It is self harming behavior, and just isn't a smart thing to do right now. If what AMU stated is true then you are headed for a disaster. Please seek help for it if you can't stop.

Please stop dating, you are still a married man. Please end the whatever you have with SJB...be it friendship or an EA. You are still a married man. It's not smart to start something new while you are still in the cesspool that is your current situation. (And really not smart to start something with someone that has also had an EA and ended a marriage because of it.) And take yourself off the dating sites until you are a free man, a quality woman would not date a married man. 

You are a smart guy, time to act like it. I am pulling for you.


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## Harken Banks

Thanks. I am not on dating sites. I was briefly on Match. My wife made sure her friends, the parents of our children's friends, and her family and mine new it. Kind of like what she did with the SJB texts. Copying, pasting, sending. I am still married. We are separated and will be divorced. Cut me some slack.


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## Aunt Ava

Double post


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## Aunt Ava

Thanks for clarifying that, AMU's posts confused me. Since you are divorcing, may I suggest you change your passwords so the monitoring will cease.


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## B1

If my wife was on a dating site your darn right I would make sure everyone knew it, Its called exposure, a tam priority. You act like she did something mean by calling you out. For gods sake hb what did you expect. Common, step up to the plate and stop it with the dodging and weaving, you avoid fault like a ws does on Dday. You made some mistakes too, own them. You are married your texts were very inappropriate, calling sjb was inappropriate, dating other women while married was inappropriate, at what point do you admit fault here. You have equaled if not surpassed what your wife did, Yet you somehow think you did nothing wrong, can you say in denial.

You said your wife wanted a separation, well, if my spouse was dating other people I would separate too. If you we're dating other women while married what does that make you? Think about that for a minute, what does that make you? Right....equal...even...happy...or simply a ws too?


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## Harken Banks

B1, (1) my wife insisted on separation, I said I thought it was the end of the marriage, she insisted, and we separated, (2) I corresponded with some women on the Match site, my wife read all of it, it was pretty tame and mostly me saying I was not ready for anything more than coffee, and maybe not even that. (3) You really do not have any idea of what has been going on with AMU and me. Really. I say that fully aware that AMU has sidebars and shares with EI the one-sided half histories she shares with my parents and with the parents of our childrens friends. I have no interest in engaging in that. It doesn't bother me much at this point, but neither you nor EI have any idea what our lives are like, mostly because of your source. Taint pretty.


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## Harken Banks

B1 said:


> You said your wife wanted a separation, well, if my spouse was dating other people I would separate too. If you we're dating other women while married what does that make you? Think about that for a minute, what does that make you? Right....equal...even...happy...or simply a ws too?


I think you have some of this backwards. I think you are sorely misinformed.


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## soccermom2three

Harken Banks said:


> We had not spoken or texted before.


I find this really hard to believe. In that text exchange, you guys are way too familiar with each other. Oh and please don't play semantics. Maybe you didn't speak or text before yesterday but it's obvious you two have been communicating in some other way (and more than sporadically).


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## Harken Banks

soccermom2three said:


> I find this really hard to believe. In that text exchange, you guys are way too familiar with each other. Oh and please don't play semantics. Maybe you didn't speak or text before yesterday but it's obvious you two have been communicating in some other way (and more than sporadically).


Soccer Mom, you are wrong. I think it is fairly fairly stated at 6:08pm. Ask my wife.


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## bfree

Harken Banks said:


> B1, (1) my wife insisted on separation, I said I thought it was the end of the marriage, she insisted, and we separated, (2) I corresponded with some women on the Match site, my wife read all of it, it was pretty tame and mostly me saying I was not ready for anything more than coffee, and maybe not even that. (3) You really do not have any idea of what has been going on with AMU and me. Really. I say that fully aware that AMU has sidebars and shares with EI the one-sided half histories she shares with my parents and with the parents of our childrens friends. I have no interest in engaging in that. It doesn't bother me much at this point, but neither you nor EI have any idea what our lives are like, mostly because of your source. Taint pretty.


Well, nobody has had any sidebars with me, neither you nor AMU, and I think you're minimizing your behavior. Whatever morally superior position you might have had is now gone. And sayjellybeans immediately deleted her thread which tells me that even she acknowledges that your conversation is wrong. Women aren't the only ones that have rationalization hamsters you know. You're a smart guy but in this case I think you're outsmarting yourself.


----------



## Harken Banks

OK, so now this is about an affair I had with a woman I never talked to or texted before yesterday. Look, if SJB will consent, I would put our entire correspondence history in a thread for your voyeuristic enjoyment. My wife read it all in real time. Prepare to be let down.


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## Harken Banks

bfree said:


> Well, nobody has had any sidebars with me, neither you nor AMU, and I think you're minimizing your behavior. Whatever morally superior position you might have had is now gone. And sayjellybeans immediately deleted her thread which tells me that even she acknowledges that your conversation is wrong. Women aren't the only ones that have rationalization hamsters you know. You're a smart guy but in this case I think you're outsmarting yourself.


No. She just had no use for the piling on. QQQQ.


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## Harken Banks

Is there anyone out there with 2 brain cells to tie together who can bring some sense to this?


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## Fisherman

Well I haven't said anything in your thread up till now but the relationship is so toxic right now that I think the best course is to divorce and move on. Neither trusts each other and without trust what do you have? Nothing. I feel sorry for your children but they will be better off out of this environment. My opinion.


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## The Middleman

Harken Banks said:


> I am still married. *We are separated and will be divorced.* Cut me some slack.


If what's in bold is actually true and you are in the process of filing, you are a "free agent" from the day you separated, as far as I'm concerned. If not, or you were involved with other women while AMU was still living with you, then you deserve the rash of sh1t your getting. Which is it?


----------



## Aunt Ava

I hate to sound voyeuristic but it may help your cause to post the correspondence between you & SJB, because the texts AMU quoted sounded pretty bad.


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## Acabado

Harken Banks said:


> No. She just had no use for the piling on. QQQQ.


Give me a break.
Foggie much, eh!
Both.Busted.At.Fault.
No way to spin it.
Any newbie here would recieve the confirmation of what it its in case she/he posted that exchange. Every one. Even you would give it.
How easily we dissociate from the rest...
And stop defending her. No defense. It's laughable. 
And the audacity of doing it while your wife is also a TAM member, while both marriages are blowing is incredible.
Has Bandit also a crush on you man? Did he fish from compliments that way?



> Is there anyone out there with 2 brain cells to tie together who can bring some sense to this?


Look at the mirror. Stop the nonsense. Someone has.


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## Harken Banks

The Middleman said:


> If what's in bold is actually true and you are in the process of filing, you are a "free agent" from the day you separated, as far as I'm concerned. If not, or you were involved with other women while AMU was still living with you, then you deserve the rash of sh1t your getting. Which is it?


Right. And I did not separate. She did. And the extent of my "involvement with other women" after 2 months of separation is what you have seen here. So hang me.


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## Aunt Ava

What I don't understand is if you are divorcing, then what does AMU gain from painting you a cheater and disparaging you to family, friends and Internet strangers?


----------



## Acabado

The Middleman said:


> If what's in bold is actually true and you are in the process of filing, you are a "free agent" from the day you separated, as far as I'm concerned. If not, or you were involved with other women while AMU was still living with you, then you deserve the rash of sh1t your getting. Which is it?


Starting this bull with another TAM member, which obviously didn't learn a thing about her wayward ways?
Whith the volatile dynamic already at hand?


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## The Middleman

Harken Banks said:


> Right. And I did not separate. She did. And the extent of my "involvement with other women" after 2 months of separation is what you have seen here. So hang me.


I'll take you at your word ... Then your a free agent (IMO), this rash of sh1t isn't warranted.


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## Harken Banks

Aunt Ava said:


> I hate to sound voyeuristic but it may help your cause to post the correspondence between you & SJB, because the texts AMU quoted sounded pretty bad.


Well they were what they were. That was all last night on my drive to the mountain. That's all there is. So what? I'm sorry, did all of you miss the part where we separated in January over my objection and I have been helping my wife compile the financial records her lawyer needs? Not to mention the talk about taking the kids away. Sheesh

Oh, and her threats that she will make me sell everything, sue me for everything I have, and demand an accounting. Goodness.


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## The Middleman

Acabado said:


> Starting this bull with another TAM member, which obviously didn't learn a thing about her wayward ways?
> Whith the volatile dynamic already at hand?


I don't know this other member. Is she married and still living with her BH?


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## Harken Banks

The Middleman said:


> I don't know this other member. Is she married and still living with her BH?


Sayjellybeans. She is divorced. And struggled with the end of her marriage. Probably has some things in common with Tears, only she did not sleep with OM, just flirted, and had a much more protracted break.


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## SomedayDig

Harken... I've always enjoyed chatting with you here, PM, emails and on the phone. But your last comment brought me to my f'ng knees. Why? Because you just totally f'ng minimized SJB's EA...the same damn thing AMU had. Hey, but at least she didn't sleep with the OM...just flirted. 

Sounds like what AMU did but you can't get over your f'ng ego to let it go.

Sorry, man. Ya lost me there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Middleman

Harken Banks said:


> Sayjellybeans. She is divorced. And struggled with the end of her marriage. Probably has some things in common with Tears, only she did not sleep with OM, just flirted, and had a much more protracted break.


I personally have no use for any WW. Doesn't matter if it's EA or PA, reconciling and remorseful or not. But your an adult and a "free agent" as far as I'm concerned so you can do what you want. I just hope you use good judgement going forward (is this good judgement?).


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## bfree

Harken Banks said:


> Sayjellybeans. She is divorced. And struggled with the end of her marriage. Probably has some things in common with Tears, only she did not sleep with OM, just flirted, and had a much more protracted break.


I still think its inappropriate. She and you are both involved in emotional difficult relationship troubles. Neither of you should be in a relationship right now. I'm not going to comment on sayjellybeans relationship status and emotional state. It is what it is. But you especially should be concentrating on concluding your marriage before getting involved with anyone. You say that AMU is acting vengeful. Then why would you give her ammunition like this especially when there are children involved. After you're divorced, date to your hearts content. But right now you need to make this transition as smooth for your family as possible and in my opinion stuff like this has no place in your life right now.


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## Acabado

Why MC suggested S? Is she missinformed, gaslighted?


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## Aunt Ava

Harken Banks said:


> Well they were what they were. That was all last night on my drive to the mountain. That's all there is. So what? So, so they implied a much closer relationship than you would have us believe.I'm sorry, did all of you miss the part where we separated in January Nope, and I found the post that indicated that. over my objection and I have been helping my wife compile the financial records her lawyer needs? She failed to mention that. Not to mention the talk about taking the kids away. Or this, which is unacceptable. Sheesh
> 
> Oh, and her threats that she will make me sell everything, sue me for everything I have, and demand an accounting. She didn't mention this either. Goodness.


----------



## alte Dame

I referred to this as the rashomon effect, where the same event is described very differently by two people who were both there to witness it. This is how HB's and AMU's interactions are reported by the two of them all the time, it seems to me.

The unifying narrative is, I suppose, that AMU wanted a separation, but to still work on the marriage (?) and HB said 'no way,' that that would mean divorce. So, AMU pushes the separation and HB resigns himself to divorce. Now they separate and AMU is still telling people that she wants to keep trying and HB wraps his head around divorce and starts to move forward.

So, if AMU is still actively working to reconcile, even though separated, why would she be doing what she's doing with the finances, etc.? No idea, of course.

As to the SJB and HB conversations, if both are free agents, it's clearly nobody's business. Are they free agents, though? I'm in the camp that, if you're divorcing, you're probably free to engage, but it's very much a question of particular circumstances, in my experience.

Lastly, I don't like having that conversation blasted over the TAMwaves. Whatever one might think of it, though, it's the latest indicator, in my opinion, that HB and AMU have little to no foundation to rebuild with.


----------



## BjornFree

IMO, AMU executed a perfect character assassination. I think it would be best if HB posted his entire text conversation with SJB, that would give us a fairly good idea about who's telling the truth and who's lying. 

And fact is, he's separated and it really doesn't matter if he's on dating sites. Tears' and her husband are separated too and he's dating younger women. If Harken should meet the love of his life tomorrow, it shouldn't count as an affair at all because in reality he is not in a primary relationship. And I would take the words of a BS over a WS any day.


----------



## Aunt Ava

BjornFree said:


> IMO, AMU executed a perfect character assassination. I think it would be best if HB posted his entire text conversation with SJB, that would give us a fairly good idea about who's telling the truth and who's lying.
> 
> And I would take the words of a BS over a WS any day.


:iagree:
I completely agree.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Harken Banks said:


> Is there anyone out there with 2 brain cells to tie together who can bring some sense to this?


Sure! You both are angry, vindictive people engaged in a revenge GAME of justification one upmanship to the detriment of your kids, your marriage and your family. Go ahead and insult people, but it doesn't change how you two look in this thread.

I will concede what you did is not the same because, as she hid in that huge rhetoric filled paragraph, she KNEW you would divorce if you separated.


----------



## Wanting1

Really, the only time AMU ever shows up to this forum is to spew sweet venom. She wraps a lot if misinformation and manipulation around a kernel of truth and calls herself the victim. She's done it over and over.


----------



## BjornFree

Wanting a Strong Marriage said:


> Really, the only time AMU ever shows up to this forum is to spew sweet venom. She wraps a lot if misinformation and manipulation around a kernel of truth and calls herself the victim. She's done it over and over.


I went through her old posts right after I read her latest one. Can't say my initial assessment differs from yours.


----------



## AMU

I had always hoped that HB would come around and want something else. Sounds like from all the e-mails tonight he is clear on the path to divorce. Many seem to wonder why I care about all this if we’re separated. Since he has said over and over that we separated over his objection, I thought this timeline would be helpful – separation (if that is really what you call where we are) was driven by his actions - I was actually following what I understood to be the TAM script.

*Tuesday, Jan 1st:* HB tells me he no longer wants to be married; return home to flooding disaster at the house.

*Wednesday, January 2nd: * Counseling appointment with MC after surveying the damage at the house together that morning. HB held me in the house, said this is our house, our family and we could fix it. 
*
Thursday, January 17th:* Counseling appointment with MC, the day after our trip to New Orleans. She was anxious to hear how it went and after listening to both of us explain about our trip and near the end of our session, she said that after she felt that we had been on a really good path in our initial sessions in Nov and Dec, she was feeling that HB had either one or both feet out of the relationship and asked whether it might good to take some time away to figure out what he wanted. HB said that he felt that separated would be contrary to the marriage and signal the end of things and she said she wasn’t suggesting separating. She said she called it nesting and explained her thoughts about getting a shared other location (apt, room, etc) where one person went while the other stayed with the kids while we continued to work on the marriage. I said that was exactly what I recommended back in October and she said “See, you’re still together” and I told her that we had not done it, because HB said if that happened, it was over, he would date other people, so I didn’t move forward with the idea. She gave us a homework assignment to work on about what we each felt was needed to help us move forward.

*Wednesday, January 23rd:* Appointment with MC where we filled her in on a disastrous weekend with lots of arguing – HB still very raw over the affair. MC said that although she had previously suggested nesting as a way to allow HB time to figure out what he wanted, at this point she felt we were in an unhealthy situation for the kids and we needed to do something else and again suggested “nesting.” HB said he saw that as separation and if that is what we were going to do, he would date other people. MC asked him whether he would agree not to date other people and he said no, he saw that as the end and it would be time to move on and seek the affection and care elsewhere that he hadn’t been getting. MC asked HB whether he would be willing to date me, and he said no, he didn’t want to “date” his wife. We left that counseling session with no resolution – just that there were two options – stop arguing in front of the kids or nesting. He went to lunch with his friends, told them we were separating and called around to find out about apartments. I suggested we take the girls to dinner, HB declined and reestablished the match.com account listing himself as separated and sent out 5 requests for coffee dates. 

*Thursday, January 24th:* HB and I were both working from home, I left to pick up the girls from daycare/take them to Girl Scout meetings and HB isn’t home when I return. Find his match.com account and learn he is on a dinner date at the restaurant right next to our house. Afterward, he takes his date on a tour of our currently being renovated house. Earlier that day I sent what I thought was a nice note to HB saying "thanks for being my husband - I love you" and you responded "it was my pleasure” (past tense intentional). I asked whether that meant it was official, that he was done trying and he never responded. After returning home from his date, HB climbed into bed with me, told me where he’d been and that it hadn’t gone well and said he’d really like to have sex then but knew I wouldn’t be interested. This was one day after our counselor had advocated nesting, we hadn’t sat down and talked about what we were going to do with that advice and my husband was already on match.com and had already gone on a date…

*Friday, January 25th - Saturday, January 26th:* HB left for the mountain with three of the girls – I told him that I couldn’t be around him while he was sending e-mails to and getting together with other women. He said that he understood, but that he missed that I was coming. We had a couple nice back and forth exchanges and calls – HB seemed to be trying and said he’d take his match.com profile down. I checked throughout the weekend and found that it would go back and forth between being up and hidden. When I asked why he kept turning his profile on and off, he said that he would get angry, feel hopeless about things and start e-mailing women. 

*Tuesday, January 29th:* HB claimed to be trying to work on us (i.e. sending I love you e-mails from the mountain, helping my efforts with the girls by selling Girl Scout cookies at his office, getting the Blu-ray player from our house so we could watch a movie) while continuing to be active on match.com and send e-mails and sharing phone calls with other woman. We were still sleeping together in the same bed each night. It was at this point that I put my foot down – I said that I couldn’t remain in the same house, sleeping in the same bed, as someone who wanting to be out “meeting other people” as he kept putting it. He told me several times that he didn’t talk about sex or anything sexual to any of them, as if that made it ok and not a complete breech of our marriage. I told him I was going to cancel the appointment with MC the next day since it appeared he wanted instead to move forward with other people.

*Wednesday, January 30th: * I asked again whether I should cancel the appointment with MC (inwardly hoping you would say, hey, I’ll cancel the account now, stop all this nonsense and let’s focus on us) and he said “I thought you already did.” So I called her and cancelled. I said I couldn’t keep doing this, being in the same house with someone who clearly wanted other people instead of me and said that I would leave the house the following week, since that would put us on a schedule where he would have the girls over February break (when he would be at the mountain coaching and they would be in their ski programs). He contacted a babysitter to help him with the kids the following week. He then got busy on match.com with significant amounts of e-mails being sent (I had his password because he uses the same one for all accounts).

*Friday, February 1st:* We were still living in the same house, sleeping in the same bed. HB went on an afternoon coffee date with a women he has been e-mailing with extensively (who was clearly really into HB). That night he was all lovey dovey, told me all about his coffee date when asked and said that he wished you could stay home from the mountain that weekend since the weather report was so cruddy and he just wanted to stay home in bed with me. We had decided that I would stay home with three of the girls on account of the weather and the fact they had other activities (parties, sleepovers) in town. HB kept asking to sit down and talk, but when we would talk, he wouldn’t say anything other than IF we are separated, he needed to move on. And he said he felt we were separated. I had told him again that I couldn’t move forward with someone who was dating or meeting others, with someone who turns his match.com account on and off when he starts to feel bad about the relationship. It wasn’t until he had spent a full week reaching out to other women that I said, hey, no more. Yet even then when he asked several times whether he needed a babysitter the following week to help him with the kid duties, I didn’t give him an answer other than I would be there Monday morning. In my mind, the rest was up to him. Either he stopped the match.com madness or yes, I was leaving. 

*Sunday, February 3rd:* Sunday night when he returned from the mountain we talked again and I asked why the heck he had turned his match.com account from visible to not visible several times that weekend. He said that every time he started feeling hopeless about us, he felt he needed to move forward. So it goes – he wanted to keep all his options open and continues to do so (think that’s referred to as cake eating in TAM). I called HB’s parents in tears, told them he was still on match.com and I couldn’t stay in the same house as a result and asked whether it would be OK to come stay with them for the upcoming week. His mom said of course. 

*Monday, February 4th:* After making breakfast for the girls and getting them off to school, I took a bag and went to his parents’ house. He kept asking to talk but never said anything when we did other that “we’re separated, and I said if we’re separated I needed to move on.” HB says in his posts that we separated over his objection, but he was the one who jumped into separation from the moment we left the MC without any conversation on the topic between the two of us, started calling us separated to his friends and to his match.com contacts and then was not willing to stop the madness when I said I couldn’t move forward with or stay with someone who wants to be with others. He sent me a note that day saying that he was no longer welcome at his parents’ condo at the mountain but that the girls and I were. I later learned that his parents said he was absolutely welcome, but only if he would either see a psychiatrist (scheduled for next week) or went to AA.

*Friday, February 8th:* I came to the house about noon to pack the girls and myself for the mountain. We didn’t discuss traveling together and it never crossed my mind that we would, since I had no idea where he was staying and we would both need a car to get around at the mountain – he said maybe a hotel, maybe with his two best friends. After I left for the mountain, HB reached out to old girlfriend (his EA partner from Feb 2011-Sept 2011 to whom he had sent a do-not-contact note back in Aug 2012, talked to her for a long time that day before leaving and then was in contact with her for the next five days. Originally admitted only two phone calls to her, but when I delved in further and asked for phone records, he admitted more. Over five hours of phone conversations with old girlfriend, including talking about HB’s desire for sex, to which old GF noted that he needed to sow his oats with several people before he would be ready for her. 

*Tuesday, February 12th:* I learned about the phone conversations with old girlfriend because he was staying at the house with me and the kids and talking on the phone to old GF. Heard his conversation and asked who he was talking to. From February 12th onward, we have always been in the same house (either the rental or mountain house), but on most nights since that time have slept in separate beds. 

*Wednesday, February 13th: * HB asked whether I would like to go to dinner on Thurs if he got a sitter and I said that would be nice. 

*Thursday, February 14th:* HB made a fantastic effort for Valentine’s Day – he gave me flowers, some chocolate and a funny card. HB arranged for a babysitter and we went to dinner, but it was awkward and conversation was uncomfortable. I know HB wanted it to be a nice evening, but it also seemed to me that he wanted to erase all of the above and go on as if things were all normal – we have work to do. HB has hidden his match.com profile – a good start.

*Saturday, February 16 – Tuesday, February 19th:* All of us at the mountain. HB and I enjoyed date night (a rarity) on Sunday night. Skied together on Monday. Also had some great sex over those days. Went to dinner Tuesday night with the girls before I planned to drive home for work Wed-Fri – HB is drinking, I asked about what he was going to do about that (girls were in video game room)and he got pissed - packed up dinner and went home. Bad ending to what had been a nice weekend.

Since that time – living together under the same roof, doing things with the kids, visiting stores to finalize decisions on the house. One woman from match.com who skis at the mountain each weekend e-mailed him about getting together this week. He told her he wasn’t sure what was up with us (he seemed to have a very clear idea in his posts today). HB has been e-mailing (using personal e-mail accounts) back and forth with SJB for the last several weeks. And he has been pursuing an every other week rental option for the 1 week on, 1 week off idea - originally posed as “nesting” by the MC, but with the exception of the four nights I spent at his parents, we have been living in the same house this entire time. We are together at the mountain this weekend – had lunch together today, sharing a plate of nachos. He called me last Friday to say he found a place and asked what he should do. I told him that he needed to make that decision - that I had been clear on what I needed - stop match.com for good (no checking it, no turning it back on if he is upset or mad and absolutely no contact with anyone from there, even if one of them contacts him) and never have any sort of communication with old GF again (not even through her friends). 

As for the attorney, last Tuesday (Feb 26th), I contacted a local attorney to ask about a consult to understand what I would be facing in case of a divorce. Because HB saw an attorney to do the same thing back in August, I knew they need tax returns to be able to help me understand the financial aspects involved. Because HB is the keeper of our tax information, I asked him for copies of the last several years of returns. HB spent two hours with a divorce attorney in August and I just learned today that he spent another 2.5 hours with a different divorce attorney discussing custody issues in October. Many individuals, including my IC, have been urging me for some time to go see an attorney so that I have a realistic picture of what things would look like. I have been dragging my feet, but in light of HB’s actions and intentions over the past two months, I do think I need to protect myself by understanding the landscape – it is a due diligence that has already been undertaken extensively by my husband. I don’t have an appointment scheduled, but it is something I plan to do.

I will probably be attacked as a pushover for letting this just keep rolling along, hoping he will decide he wants something different – he has said to me over and over and over during the past two months that he wants our marriage and doesn’t want separation, so I hold out hope. But at the same time, he isn’t willing to stop the calls and contacts with other woman and continues to drown his sorrows in alcohol. At the end of the day, it takes two to make a marriage work and perhaps ours will not. But no matter what, I do hope that HB will get the help that he needs in healing himself. 

If you’re still reading, thanks for bearing with me on this very long post.


----------



## Harken Banks

AMU, you are selectively editing a lot. You leave out the threats you make about taking the kids and about forcing me to sell everything even if means fire sale and financial loss and demanding an accounting. You also leave out that you talk to the kids about divorce and custody and that you also loudly and angrily raise those topics when you are haranguing me in front of them. Last week you sternly demanded that I retrieve a number of tax and financial records and gave a deadline by which you needed them. I politely complied, and that meant searching through, most of which I had already given to you response to prior demands (this stuff is not hidden, it is all in the house, much of it in her bedroom, it's just that since I have done the taxes and kept most of the financial records throughout our marriage, it is easier for me to find some things), and some phone calls and written requests to the bank that was holding some of it (it took some time, I made the time, and responded promptly and without complaint or objection). Hel!, I had encouraged you to see a lawyer since this summer since you wanted to keep up the divorce threats. I thought it would be helfpful for you to understand what divorce meant in practicalities. For that reason I had openly shared the information I received from the lawyer I saw since I figured she could get the same from someone else anyway. I went for information and understanding, not to strategize. I told the lawyer that and I told AMU that. He said he understood my feelings about openness (this is my wife whom, regardless of the failure of our marriage and acrimony between us, I do love and the mother of my children and their welfare and wellbeing is of primary importance to me -all of this has been breaking my heart) that it was my call, but cautioned me to be discrete. I didn't and still don't see the point. It was all objective information on things like child support, alimony, asset splits, and how custody is decided and what factors are considered.

I saw a lawyer in August to understand the lay of the land and what things would look like in divorce since that term and threat were being tossed around. That is in the threads. I saw another lawyer in October I think who is an old friend from when we worked together in Boston and who I have helped with corporate matters over the years. I saw her in response to threats from AMU about custody. Again, I wanted to understand what I was facing and be sure I wasn't being sandbagged, or at least try to be aware if I was. AMU keeps a notebook of my infractions, real and perceived. She is and has for a long time been compiling a case. If AMU ever wanted our marriage, as she seems to claim in these pages and really no where else that I witness, she should should have stopped beating me over the head every day years ago.


----------



## Harken Banks

And we are not really so much under one roof. It is baffling to me that AMU disputes that she insisted on and got separation. I think it was a Wednesday we had a counseling session when she informed that that was what we were going to do and that she would be moving out of the house Sunday for the following week and that she expected me to find a place for the week after, and so on. The first week she moved out to be with my parents. I explored rental options and wasn't coming up with anything suitable, so her weeks on I have been staying out of the house evenings and coming home to sleep on the couch or in my office. I cover when she has conflicts or when someone wakes up early and wants breakfast or needs attention. Occassionally she would scream that she couldn't wait to have me out of her life and demand that I get out of the house immediately. I would shrug and say I didn't chose this so I didn't plan for it and don't have a place lined up that I can just go to. It is logistically complicated. My last week on was Feb vacation and I had the girls here at the mountain. Last week I found what seemed to be a suitable place to stay in town, near my office for my off weeks. I ran it by AMU because it is an expense that affects our finances.

Next week is my week on. AMU will be at a series of "sales kickoffs."


----------



## happyman64

It never ceases to amaze me how two bright, educated professionals can bring 4 children into this world and not have a clue to fix a marriage.

Your both professionals with responsibilities. You make a good amount of money from your professional careers but you cannot manage yourselves let alone your relationship with each other.

You two should stop the fighting. You should line up your 4 kids and really look at how your pettiness is going to rip their lives apart.

If you two put as much effort into your marriage as you do in all this nonsense you would both be happy and together.

It is possible. You once were happy together!

And AMU I do believe HB has honest gripes about the way he was or is treated. I believe them because it is those same qualities that make you a great lawyer. It is that same diligence thatmakes your post read like a very professionally written legal discourse.

But are you two ready throw it all away?

HB the drinking and dating must stop. That is total BS if you are both under the same roof. You are p!ss!ing on AMU and your relationship by using a firehose.



> So both of you stop it.
> 
> So why don't both of you make a pact this. Weekend.
> 
> No more lies to each other.
> 
> No more drinking.
> 
> No more blaming.
> 
> No. More separation.
> 
> No more arguments with each other in. Front of. The. Kids.
> 
> No. More texting or speaking to the opposite sex about the marriage.
> 
> And take 12. Months. To fix this train wreck you both. Have caused.
> 
> If you both stopped the. Childish. Behavior you could. Solve these issues


I copied my last post.

If either you truly love your children, value your family and have any love left for each other you will make the pact.

At least then you both can say "we tried". Because right now you both have barely scratched the surface of your personal issues let alone your marital issues.

My last parting note is to HB. Stop talking to the old GF.

That relationship did not work out before, it will not work out in the end. You are smarter than that.

Show it. Stop it.

HM64


----------



## Harken Banks

I admit that I have not yet taken the time to carefully go through AMU's timeline and I have to get ready to get out on the hill. But clearly and unequivocally, separation over my objection came first, match came second. First came separation. Then came me exploring the process starting to talk to people again. You can question whether I should have been engaged in that process. I have myself. But this did not happen overnight. And I have felt that the time is long overdue for me to start looking ahead and doing the things that will help me in putting my life back together. The past year has taken a toll.

Also, several weeks ago I deleted all content from the profile and put it in "hidden" or "invisble" mode. In part but not solely because AMU had taken to sending the content around to friends and family and harrassing people that I interacted with.


----------



## SomedayDig

I waded through the first dozen or so pages of this thread to make sure that what I thought was the history of this crap was indeed what I thought it was. You tell me...I'm going to highlight stuff I thought was enlightening to me as I contemplated the stories I've read here on TAM of someone starting any kind of affair - EA/PA doesn't matter. There's the need for an ego feed (sounds like Top Gun) and then the disconnect and then the justifying (to themselves mostly but then to others) and then the re-write.

See, I know AMU totally f'd up when she had her affair. She had an EA. HB knows that. He says clearly in so many posts that he knows that it didn't go PA and she has steadfastly said it was an EA. 

One thing I have always noted about each of them is the tremendous ego that does not allow them to just LOVE each other. Someone always has to be right and the other has to be wrong. Disastrous.

Interesting to note how SJB began writing more and more to HB at which point he had the match account while he started talking more and more about separation. Does anyone not see the slippery slope or am I seeing this totally bassackwards? The nail in the coffin for me is when HB totally minimized SJB's EA while at the same time talking about how AMU's EA has totally killed him and he just can't take it any more and blah, blah, blah. Again...does anyone not see that or am I seeing this totally bassackwards?





Harken Banks said:


> I take those as rare moments of honesty, and the rest as acting or reacting. I'm a naif. I'll own it. But I also have a fundamental faith in us. Suppose I would be alone in a place like this.





Harken Banks said:


> Against the considered, considerable, and deeply appreciated advice of this panel, I will trust my wife. She's a good person. This one may surprise you.





Harken Banks said:


> For what it is worth and in the interest of disclosure, 2 best friends see it as long odds. Good, long-time friends to both of us. I'll tell them, "No, we're going to find a way to keep this together; there is no alternative" and they say "I hope so bud, but I don't see how it works out." Depressing to hear, but doesn't change my outlook.





Harken Banks said:


> Some additional information: I am pretty sure this has not gone physical. The only possibility for that would have been the first night on the beach or if this guy got on a plane to go be where she was on one of the trips. * I haven’t seen any content to support that. It also seems to me my wife’s ability to maintain implausible denial would shatter had there been so much as a kiss*. From what I have been able to see, it seems the content of their conversations following the first week (which was clearly her pursuing this new relationship with reckless abandon) was primarily this sad sack crying on my wife’s shoulder about his own divorce and subsequent attempts at relationship, plying her for companionship, sympathy, and relationship coaching. Not certain of the content flowing the other way, but it seems to have included problems in our marriage and my wife’s loneliness and dissatisfaction. *Not great, but not “I love you and can’t wait to **** you.” * I’m under no illusion that this or something like it would not head there, but I don’t think it’s there at this point. That said, the pattern of uncharacteristic behavior has been alarming. Just crashing through boundaries left and right. Starting with the night she walked out to the beach with this guy. And the recognition on her part each time that what she was about to do was taboo. “It felt weird.” Why? “Because I was married and [walking out to the beach with blankets with a guy I just met/didn’t know if he was going to make a move/engaging in flirty chat banter with this really nice guy I just met/calling a man who was not my husband etc.]” She said that more than once, when we did actually to talking about what had happened, “It felt weird because . . .[pause] because I was married.” It felt weird because it was taboo. It was reckless and betrayal and it’s clear to me she knew it, though she is remarkably able to maintain contorted dissonance and denial. The last two sentences paraphrase my response. How I told her I saw it. Her reaction was to get very pissed off. Furious even to the point of quaking.
> 
> At this point, either she is reluctantly and begrudgingly beginning to make out the shadow of the iceberg, in which case there is reason to hope that we’ll get through as a family, or she is not. In either case, my focus remains where it has been the last 30 or so days. The practical and necessary. The practicalities of the near to mid-term. It seems that at least some of the 180 is probably genetically ingrained.





bandit.45 said:


> He's thinking like a lawyer.
> 
> He's worried his lawyer wife will find what he wrote here and slam him in divorce court with it.
> 
> So he won't come out and directly say anything that can be used against him...so he tells his story through metaphors and innuendos.... heiroglyphics that he expects us to decode.
> 
> *I just don't have the energy.*


I know Bandit...I know...


----------



## Harken Banks

Dig, I do not want to disagree with some of the basic points you made in your post. I think they are valid. I do want to note that I was quite wrong in the language you highlighted where I wrote with certainty that the content of AMU's relationship did not include "I want to **** you.". Also, I agreed to nc with old gf at AMU's request and while our marriage seemed potentially viable. I talked to her a couple of wweeks ago because she is an old friend and place of comfort and the reasons for nc seemed no longer to obtain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gabriel

Harken Banks said:


> Gabriel, I like you, I think you are good guy, but you seem to insist on playing the shmegegge.


I think using that word to describe me is quite ironic.

Look, this isn't healthy for you, AMU, or your daughters. I know you are both quite obsessed about which of you is in the right. This is what lawyers do. But now it should be about the well being of the six of you. Or at least your 4 daughters. 

IMHO, you should end this toxic situation, divorce and move on. Both of you. It's not fair for you to continue engaging your wife on dinners and sex, and then date other women. And it's not fair for your wife to scream and threaten you. Just end this friggin mess.


----------



## BrockLanders

I'd just suggest completing an out patient rehab program so she can't use it as ammunition to get sole custody, whether your drinking is really a problem or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

Look, we are not helping each other here. I stand by what i wrote in my very first post; we are good people and good parents. What we are doing to each other and our family, including now through this forum, is incredibly sad and painful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anchorwatch

Harken Banks said:


> Look, we are not helping each other here. I stand by what i wrote in my very first post; we are good people and good parents. *What we are doing to each other and our family, including now through this forum, is incredibly sad and painful.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then show some honor and stop it!


----------



## Jonesey

*Sv: Re: Initial foray*



anchorwatch said:


> Then show some honor and stop it!


Harken was, and did for a long time. 
AMU is the one say what you want 
Not so much effort. When Tam wasn't buying her beach towels story. She even
Went to SI. Com. And can you believe it. 
Even famous DS and the rest did not buy
What she was selling..


----------



## Chaparral

Your wife turned on you, your MC turned on you, your * MOM* turned on you, your bottle turned on you. What is it gonna take , your daughters turning on you?

Get off the bottle. Go to ptsd counseling.

There are at least two other posters here on long term recociliation attempts that are trying to reconcile with out doing any lifting. They are in the same boat.....................families going straight to hell.

Wake up and lead, don't wait until you hit rock bottom.


----------



## Chaparral

SomedayDig said:


> I waded through the first dozen or so pages of this thread to make sure that what I thought was the history of this crap was indeed what I thought it was. You tell me...I'm going to highlight stuff I thought was enlightening to me as I contemplated the stories I've read here on TAM of someone starting any kind of affair - EA/PA doesn't matter. There's the need for an ego feed (sounds like Top Gun) and then the disconnect and then the justifying (to themselves mostly but then to others) and then the re-write.
> 
> See, I know AMU totally f'd up when she had her affair. She had an EA. HB knows that. He says clearly in so many posts that he knows that it didn't go PA and she has steadfastly said it was an EA.
> 
> One thing I have always noted about each of them is the tremendous ego that does not allow them to just LOVE each other. Someone always has to be right and the other has to be wrong. Disastrous.
> 
> Interesting to note how SJB began writing more and more to HB at which point he had the match account while he started talking more and more about separation. Does anyone not see the slippery slope or am I seeing this totally bassackwards? The nail in the coffin for me is when HB totally minimized SJB's EA while at the same time talking about how AMU's EA has totally killed him and he just can't take it any more and blah, blah, blah. Again...does anyone not see that or am I seeing this totally bassackwards?
> 
> 
> 
> I know Bandit...I know...


JSJB quit posting here 12/27/12 or 12/28/12. Coincidence?


----------



## SomedayDig

chapparal said:


> JSJB quit posting here 12/27/12 or 12/28/12. Coincidence?


Also that she was on all yesterday morning and then all last night via the tapatalk app... But no commentary. Coincidence?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

SomedayDig said:


> Also that she was on all yesterday morning and then all last night via the tapatalk app... But no commentary. Coincidence?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, sayjellybeans and I did have a short PM exchange so she wasn't just lurking. That's not a defense but just a fact. While I won't supply details of our conversation I will say that she was shocked at all that transpired on TAM and she really did believe that HB was separated and he and AMU were moving on. I'm certainly not defending her but I believe she feels she was misled. Take that for what you will.


----------



## SomedayDig

Oh, I know she wasn't just lurking cuz she sent me a PM too. However, instead of explaining to people what happened, she deleted her thread. I'm taking stuff the way I see it I guess. As for HB & AMU the whole "I need to win and you need to lose" attitude each of them have is the downfall. Ego prevails with both of them to the detriment of their family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

What I find amusing is, SJB and AMU are really no different yet HB seems more than willing to start something up with a *NEW* cheater.


----------



## bfree

Yup, let this be a lesson. Never marry a lawyer. Of course I've always been fond of Shakespeare so......


----------



## Summer4744

AMU. HB has clearly been sloppy in R. 

But what about you? You forget that it was you that crossed the line and it takes time for a BS to heal. Harping on HB to make it right through threats is not the way to go. You never considered that it is your own self centered actions that drove HB to do these things?

You claim that you want to make it work. But to me it seems like you are very self centered and you spend most of your day spying on your husband to collect little snippets that justify your own behavior rather than putting in work to save the marriage.


----------



## SomedayDig

AMU...how often have you gotten physical in confrontation with HB? How often do you yell at him either in front of or away from the kids?

HB...how often do you yell at AMU in front of the kids? I'm not saying away from the kids, because THAT is understandable and I, too, have said my stuff to Regret which she fully accepted and well...she deserved to hear my wrath.


----------



## Jonesey

*Sv: Re: Initial foray*



pidge70 said:


> What I find amusing is, SJB and AMU are really no different yet HB seems more than willing to start something up with a *NEW* cheater.


And u now that how?


----------



## Jonesey

*Sv: Re: Initial foray*



Summer4744 said:


> AMU. HB has clearly been sloppy in R.
> 
> But what about you? You forget that it was you that crossed the line and it takes time for a BS to heal. Harping on HB to make it right through threats is not the way to go. You never considered that it is your own self centered actions that drove HB to do these things?
> 
> You claim that you want to make it work. But to me it seems like you are very self centered and you spend most of your day spying on your husband to collect little snippets that justify your own behavior rather than putting in work to save the marriage.


Yes. She comes here on occasion. It's 
Called hit and run. Harking on the other hand is here often. WHY aren't you AMU?


----------



## pidge70

*Re: Sv: Re: Initial foray*



Jonesey said:


> And u now that how?





> SJB 6:59 - working on it (sending a picture of her hand holding a glass of wine)
> 
> HB 7:05 - Mille grazia
> 
> HB 7:07 - Try that again, grazie. Driving and texting
> 
> HB 8:05 - I am almost there (to the mountain)
> 
> 8:06 missed call from SJB to HB
> 
> SJB 8:07 - Just tried calling...
> 
> 8:07 - 12 minute call from HB to SJB
> 
> 8:20 - 2 min call from HB to SJB
> 
> HB 8:32 -* F*ck. I have a crush on you. And we have never met. How did that happen?
> *
> SJB 8:35 - Connection. Attraction. You're cute. I'm cute. No real mystery baby.
> 
> HB 8:44 - You sell me short.
> 
> SJB 8:51 - Aw, I was teasing some. Sorry! (You're more than cute). FYI, I've moved on to vodka. (sent a picture of her glass of vodka with her legs and bare feet showing)
> 
> HB 8:54 - Sorry. I didn't like what wrote last. At all. I am now passing through a town called Kingfield.
> 
> SJB 9:12 - You didn't like what?
> 
> HB 9:18 - What I wrote. Texting and driving. Mountain roads.
> 
> SJB 9:24 - "F*ck. I have a crush on you. And we have never met. How did that happen?" OR "You sell me short"?
> 
> HB 9:29 - The sell me short part. There is a f*ckload of snow here. Can't explain the excitement I get from just the snow banks.
> 
> SJB 9:33 - Sooo jealous. Get me up there!
> 
> SJB 9:52 - I'm only an accomplished beginner btw. We'd be on different runs…
> 
> HB 10:03 - Was going to send you some snow porn. And may still. Just the pictures are not coming together in a way to do it justice. Maybe tomorrow. There's nothing that makes my heart beat faster.
> 
> SJB 10:06 - Snow porn? Have never seen such a thing. I'd imagine it starts off cold, ends up sweaty and breathless.
> 
> HB 10:13 - For me it's just the huge banks and drifts, billowy tufts, and anticipation of tomorrow.
> 
> SJB 10:26 - Sounds amazing. I've never been much of a sportswoman, but about five years ago, I learned to ski and it changed me. I dream about it.


This is where I get my observation from.


----------



## Chaparral

If a person doesn't want to be helped they won't be.

Intelligence does not equal smart. I have never seen this to be proven more than this situation. 

I have seen, for example, several people, over many years, drink or do drugs untilnthey were dead. All kinds of people have tried to help them, all for naught.

In this case, even when they look back at the obvious damage being inflicted on their daughters, neither one of them will accept any of the blame. Dumb not smart.


----------



## Harken Banks

It seems to me the judgments from some in this crowd are routinely unduly harsh and unhelpful and not terribly well informed. AMU and I are making mistakes and hurting. But we also do a lot of things right and well. Yes, this is a sh*tty chapter. But the problems in our marriage are between us and do not define or necessarily reflect the character of either of us. We are both extraordinarily devoted and loving parents. Our children love us and know that our love for them has no bounds. Sure, it's a bit dysfunctional right now, but it is our family and it is a beautiful family, as a whole and to a person. And we have good friends who know us to be good people going through some extraordinary difficulty. Please, if you want to be helpful to our family, measure your tone a bit. If you want to tell me or AMU what a jerk you think one or the other of us is, you can do that, but I think we both tend to tune those comments out.


----------



## Acabado

Harken Banks said:


> AMU, you are selectively editing a lot. You leave out the threats you make about taking the kids and about forcing me to sell everything even if means fire sale and financial loss and demanding an accounting. You also leave out that you talk to the kids about divorce and custody and that you also loudly and angrily raise those topics when you are haranguing me in front of them...


No need to go back to similar statments.
AMU it this true?
Why?

Trully trying to be helful. Just mere questions. Not necessary to answer here. Questions to make yourself.


----------



## Harken Banks

Also, I received a PM from SJB today, basically throwing her hands up and saying this is ridiculous, if you have the PMs, just post them. I may do that. My wife has read them all as they came in and went out. Anyone else who has PMed or emailed me, yes she's read that too. There is not a lot of volume and not much recent, but I'd have to go through them to excise any identifying information. My cover is now pretty well blown, but hers isn't and she did not ask to be a part of this circus.


----------



## Acabado

Harken Banks said:


> she did not ask to be a part of this circus.


Disagree.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Harken Banks said:


> It seems to me the judgments from some in this crowd are routinely unduly harsh and unhelpful and not terribly well informed.


I've now read both threads and YOU LOVE to insult people, then you type stuff like your above post. Your writing denotes a high level of intelligence, I shouldn't have to inform you of tone. Your tone denotes how judgmental, sarcastic and detrimental the comments are in this thread. Your subtle and direct insults lead to what you are receiving now.

Basically, it is childish, but I am all about "if you can't take it don't dish out." Whether you agree with their advice or not, if you want people to treat you, your marriage and AMU with respect,
show some yourself.


----------



## Harken Banks

Post what you want to post. I was offering what i thought might be helpful if you wanted to be helpful. I have responded where i thoughta poster's comment on my thread did more harm than good. I do not think that i have tended to go onto other people's threads to lob baseless or ill-informed insult or condemnation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AMU

*Re: Sv: Re: Initial foray*



Jonesey said:


> Harken was, and did for a long time.
> AMU is the one say what you want
> Not so much effort. When Tam wasn't buying her beach towels story. She even
> Went to SI. Com. And can you believe it.
> Even famous DS and the rest did not buy
> What she was selling..


I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about - I had to do several google searches before I even realized what SI was. I have never in my life posted in any forum other than this one, and this post makes a whopping 50 posts from me over 8 months. With the exception of a couple of posts not relating to our relationship on the Reconciliation thread, before yesterday I have not made any other posts for 3.5 months. You criticize me for not coming here, but I did not see it as healthy - it seemed that either I was attacked or HB and I ended up in an online battle. How was that helpful to the recovery of and reconciliation of our relationship? My last post before yesterday was Nov 18th. In late November, HB and I entered MC and I was focusing my time and attention on him, our relationship and improving myself. We talked in our sessions about this forum, as I was fearful that it was sucking the energy from HB – he read story after story and continued to get more and more depressed. 

Yesterday I was heartbroken. On Friday I had reached out to SJB, a woman to whom my husband has looked for guidance and information since the time he joined the forum in July, in hopes of getting her opinion on the situation and seeking her guidance on anything she felt might help. In several e-mails to her I shared the info I did in my timeline above with greater detail. As I’ve said before, SJB and HB have shared many PMs over the months, he trusted her, they gave each other advice and he seemed to have passion for her situation (he has told me how badly he feels that her husband couldn't get over her infidelity). Over the last several weeks, she provided her personal e-mail and phone number to him and they had been e-mailing back and forth, with her sharing how difficult it was to be divorced yet living in the same house with her ex, sharing info about her husband’s sexual encounters and her own dating experiences. She responded back to me that day, copying HB and saying that she would be happy to read what I’d written and reply. She said “you know how obscure HB can be at time and I’m trying to get more answers to be a better help to his family.”

So yes, I was a bit knocked off my feet when I read the sexually charged texts between them later that night and saw that they had also had several phone conversations. They talked again for 30 min last night. After I sent SJB a text from HB’s phone early yesterday morning asking whether she had learned anything from her own affair, her response was “I'm sorry if you feel lines were crossed. I suppose I felt as if this separated man wants to flirt a little, why shouldn't he? I still feel that.” And HB owns part of the banter for sure – I was just surprised to see her immediately banter back and forth with my husband using sexual undertones the very day I reached out to tell her how much I wanted this to work and was seeking her advice. And after she responded to me saying she wanted to be a help to our family. 

Despite not having posted much on this forum, I have read and continue to read the forum frequently, have become friends and communicated privately with several really good people and I have felt that so many posters are truly here to be helpful, share their experiences and help others work through this very hard topic of infidelity. So I was a bit knocked out of my socks by what I felt was a major betrayal by a fellow TAMer. I probably shouldn’t have posted it, since it seems to have started another online war between HB and myself, which I have been very purposely avoiding for months. So I will sign back off and refocus my efforts on my relationship with HB.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Harken Banks said:


> Post what you want to post. I was offering what i thought might be helpful if you wanted to be helpful.


 I was being helpful as well. This is you trying to dictate what type of advice you want to hear, after your insult about people rubbing two brains cells together. Yet, you cant fathom how the last few pages have become utterly mean.


----------



## Harken Banks

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I was being helpful as well. This is you trying to dictate what type of advice you want to hear, after your insult about people rubbing two brains cells together. Yet, you cant fathom how the last few pages have become utterly mean.


I was exasperated. People were making posts laden with suggestion that AMU and I both knew to be completely false. Including the soccer mom stuff. I had never talked to or texted SJB before Friday. I think I have a post on that that soccer mom and others chose to read as fabrication and then to persist on a nonsensical course.


----------



## SomedayDig

AMU said:


> Yesterday I was heartbroken. On Friday I had reached out to SJB, a woman to whom my husband has looked for guidance and information since the time he joined the forum in July, in hopes of getting her opinion on the situation and seeking her guidance on anything she felt might help. In several e-mails to her I shared the info I did in my timeline above with greater detail. As I’ve said before, SJB and HB have shared many PMs over the months, he trusted her, they gave each other advice and he seemed to have passion for her situation (he has told me how badly he feels that her husband couldn't get over her infidelity). Over the last several weeks, she provided her personal e-mail and phone number to him and they had been e-mailing back and forth, with her sharing how difficult it was to be divorced yet living in the same house with her ex, sharing info about her husband’s sexual encounters and her own dating experiences. She responded back to me that day, copying HB and saying that she would be happy to read what I’d written and reply. She said “you know how obscure HB can be at time and I’m trying to get more answers to be a better help to his family.”





Harken Banks said:


> I was exasperated. People were making posts laden with suggestion that AMU and I both knew to be completely false. Including the soccer mom stuff. *I had never talked to or texted SJB before Friday*. I think I have a post on that that soccer mom and others chose to read as fabrication and then to persist on a nonsensical course.


Ok, man...so...are we going with the Bill Clinton version of the truth today? Seriously. You say the line "I had never talked to or texted SJB before Friday" yet it's clear the two of you have been in communication for months...just maybe not actually talking or texting. This is where I'm getting pissed at the way you're going about this stuff. Getting advice from the wayward spouse in an EA and empathizing with her, yet totally being disgusted by your own wife who did the same thing.

You got me stumped, man.


----------



## Harken Banks

Look Dig, when I have time I will compile the entirety of the SJB communication for you. AMU has read it all. She knows that we had never talked or texted before Friday, 2 days ago, when I called her to apologize upon learning from SJB that AMU had been writing to SJB not so nice things in response to the messages SJB sent me. And, again,for clarity, AMU reads my PMs and emails and had read mostly in real time all of the communication. I don't necessarily like the obsessiveness with which AMU monitors my communications (kind of ironic, when you think about it), but I liked even less the idea of changing passwords or telling her not to read my communications. Also, since I do not have her passwords or monitor her communications, I was unaware that she was responding to mine.


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## SomedayDig

HB...Bro! That's my point. You kinda made it out as if you and SJB have never really "talked" before this past weekend. At least that's how I took it cuz maybe I'm a little dense. I didn't realize you had been PM'ng and whatnot.

Again ~ I can be a little dense and not catch up.


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## phillybeffandswiss

No, you aren't dense he and his wife write extremely well. There is a ton of obfuscation and blame shifting going on in their main posts. It takes me time to parse their information, into digestible portions and I've studied RHETORIC.


----------



## Chaparral

Harken Banks said:


> It seems to me the judgments from some in this crowd are routinely unduly harsh and unhelpful and not terribly well informed. AMU and I are making mistakes and hurting. But we also do a lot of things right and well. Yes, this is a sh*tty chapter. But the problems in our marriage are between us and do not define or necessarily reflect the character of either of us. We are both extraordinarily devoted and loving parents. Our children love us and know that our love for them has no bounds. Sure, it's a bit dysfunctional right now, but it is our family and it is a beautiful family, as a whole and to a person. And we have good friends who know us to be good people going through some extraordinary difficulty. Please, if you want to be helpful to our family, measure your tone a bit. If you want to tell me or AMU what a jerk you think one or the other of us is, you can do that, but I think we both tend to tune those comments out.



A bit disfunctional...................????????????????

Which Harken wrote this? Obviously not the one who has been posting before.

So either your family is coming apart at the seams or you just hit a bump in the road?

Asleep at the wheel.


----------



## Harken Banks

phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, you aren't dense he and his wife write extremely well. There is a ton of obfuscation and blame shifting going on in their main posts. It takes me time to parse their information, into digestible portions and I've studied RHETORIC.


Don't give him a pass. He is pretty dense.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Harken Banks said:


> Don't give him a pass. He is pretty dense.


Actually, I gave YOU a pass.
I'll just point back to my posts, about tone, insults, your culpability and the games you two are playing. You don't want help anymore, you two just want to win, on the internet, at the cost of your children.
*Lurk on*


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## alte Dame

Harken Banks said:


> ...If AMU ever wanted our marriage, as she seems to claim in these pages and really no where else that I witness, she should should have stopped beating me over the head every day years ago.


The issues that we read about here seem to be longstanding, present well before AMU's EA. I've known couples who simply couldn't quit one another no matter how bitter or hurtful their world together became. Fateful chemistry? Stubbornness? Absolute commitment to family? I'm not sure. What I do know is that they were never ready to really give up.

If we look at what AMU has done here this weekend, it certainly seems that she doesn't want to give up. Why else would she wield the tool of exposure so effectively? It could be that she seeks only to punish HB, but taken together with the thoroughness of her snooping and checking, it all sounds much more desperate than a simple urge for punishment.

And so much of the description here makes it sound like HB is only moving toward divorce with a very, very heavy heart.

So, one could conclude that neither really wants to give up. The way they hurt and hurt each other, though, is pushing them to a point of no return.

I'm just reading the text, so you will correct me, HB, but it just seems that either one or both of you can't seem to stop from pushing things to a breaking point that you very seriously don't want to reach.


----------



## Harken Banks

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Actually, I gave YOU a pass.
> I'll just point back to my posts, about tone, insults, your culpability and the games you two are playing. You don't want help anymore, you two just want to win, on the internet, at the cost of your children.
> *Lurk on*


We both spend most of every day with our children. Today even. I am goofing and playing games with 1 and 2 now. We both spent the afternoon skiing with 3 and 4 after lunch with all and while 1 and 2 were in afternoon ski class. I arranged coverage so that I could ski with AMU and 3 and 4 since AMU had made the effort to come up this weekend. And this is not unusual. We are both incredibly dedicated and devoted parents. Our kids are great. Impacted by what is going on between me and AMU, but great. I think you are here casting judgment on people and a situation you know very little about and not really offering anything helpful to any of us.


----------



## happyman64

alte Dame said:


> The issues that we read about here seem to be longstanding, present well before AMU's EA. I've known couples who simply couldn't quit one another no matter how bitter or hurtful their world together became. Fateful chemistry? Stubbornness? Absolute commitment to family? I'm not sure. What I do know is that they were never ready to really give up.
> 
> If we look at what AMU has done here this weekend, it certainly seems that she doesn't want to give up. Why else would she wield the tool of exposure so effectively? It could be that she seeks only to punish HB, but taken together with the thoroughness of her snooping and checking, it all sounds much more desperate than a simple urge for punishment.
> 
> And so much of the description here makes it sound like HB is only moving toward divorce with a very, very heavy heart.
> 
> So, one could conclude that neither really wants to give up. The way they hurt and hurt each other, though, is pushing them to a point of no return.
> 
> I'm just reading the text, so you will correct me, HB, but it just seems that either one or both of you can't seem to stop from pushing things to a breaking point that you very seriously don't want to reach.


I agree.

Very very sad.

What a way to kill a marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig

I think I said last July in this thread and then yesterday and even today, man...it's the f'ng EGO's of both of ya's that are killing this.

Think of your wedding day. Did you really love her? Did she really love you?

If not then get over it and get out.

If so then why do ya's keep on with this bullsnot charade?! Either love each other or knock it the f--k off and walk.

I've checked my GPS. I'm like 4 hours out. I've driven further to bash a skull. Just sayin!! You've got my number...but it's Family Movie Night at the Dig/Regret household. I got nothing going on tomorrow except dropping off a lot hold check at the office for a house I sold today. Text. Talk. Whateverthef-ck.

EDIT: Oh, and a big Masonic meeting at 5:30 til whenever.


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## bfree

alte Dame said:


> The issues that we read about here seem to be longstanding, present well before AMU's EA. I've known couples who simply couldn't quit one another no matter how bitter or hurtful their world together became. Fateful chemistry? Stubbornness? Absolute commitment to family? I'm not sure. What I do know is that they were never ready to really give up.
> 
> If we look at what AMU has done here this weekend, it certainly seems that she doesn't want to give up. Why else would she wield the tool of exposure so effectively? It could be that she seeks only to punish HB, but taken together with the thoroughness of her snooping and checking, it all sounds much more desperate than a simple urge for punishment.
> 
> And so much of the description here makes it sound like HB is only moving toward divorce with a very, very heavy heart.
> 
> So, one could conclude that neither really wants to give up. The way they hurt and hurt each other, though, is pushing them to a point of no return.
> 
> I'm just reading the text, so you will correct me, HB, but it just seems that either one or both of you can't seem to stop from pushing things to a breaking point that you very seriously don't want to reach.


If they could each turn their supposedly massive intellects toward healing their marriage instead of trying to out do each other and win at all costs maybe they wouldn't need to be on TAM at all. They're each trying to outsmart the other but all they succeed in doing is outsmarting themselves. And their children are going to pay for it in the long run.


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## Harken Banks

I don't think we are trying to outsmart each other. I don't think that has been going on at all. And i am no match for her in any argument. I sometimes amuse myself with verbal jousting and sparring here, but that is mostly just when some @ss comes along and wants to insult or talk down to me or AMU without the slightest understanding of what is going on in our lives. Yes, texting and driving again. Sue me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

alte Dame said:


> it just seems that either one or both of you can't seem to stop from pushing things to a breaking point that you very seriously don't want to reach.


Exactly this 

If you can't commit to rebuild at least it's time to don't destroy more. No more harm.
Commit to stop destructive behavior each one. For yourselves.
No more games, no more threats, no more booze, no more...


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## phillybeffandswiss

Harken Banks said:


> I think you are here casting judgment on people and a situation you know very little about and not really offering anything helpful to any of us.


Nope, because you just rewrote and agreed with what I
stated:
Me:


> You don't want help anymore, you two just want to win, on the internet, *at the cost of your children.*


you:


> *Impacted by what is going on between me and AMU, *but great.


You should have started a blog, that way you could delete all the comments you don't like and control the content all by yourself. You'd rather argue with people here, try to gaslight how great you and your family time is, all while telling another woman you have a crush on her. 

Irony is all over your post about condescension and being an @ss.


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## Harken Banks

Philly, why are you here trying to pick fights wi5h me on my thread? Do you think you are helping me or my family or anyone else? And I didn't say a thing about condescension. I was referring to the posters who come along and want to tell me or AMU what jerks we are without without any real understanding of us or our lives. Like you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rags

This is one of those situations where you have to wonder how it got to this...?

Clearly, neither of these people wants it to end, but seem to be in a downward spiral, where each thing that happens gets responded to, there's a retaliation, and the vicious circle continues.

Love is a verb. Something you have to actively do. If the two of you could stop, step back from this cycle of destruction for a moment, think about what you actually want, how you feel about each other, and where you want to be - then, without holding on to your mutual acrimony and resentment, communicate with each other, you might be able to feel what you once did (and probably still do, under all the piles of garbage you've been throwing at each other.)

I'd love to think that there could be a happy ending here - but this tit-for-tat would need to stop, and there would need to be some honest, naked, heartfelt communication. And that entails vulnerability and risk.

Are you (both) brave enough for that?


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## ravioli

So has it been confirmed that AMU slept with her co worker on hotel beach front property?


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## ravioli

I also find it funny that Harken's wife is performing the Kentucky Press on him on a web forum. The stuff that she recently posted is to only go on the offensive. It's not working. She got caught, and now is trying to throw mud Harken's way.


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## EI

NOOOOOOOOOO............... ABSOLUTELY NOT........
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ravioli

EI said:


> NOOOOOOOOOO............... ABSOLUTELY NOT........
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


About what?


----------



## Harken Banks

ravioli said:


> About what?


My wife did not have sex on the beach with the guy. I think it is understandable that reading the thread someone might come away with that understanding because I was never very clear myself on what had happened and a number of posters, with honest intentions, were trying to convince me that she had, but it didn't happen.


----------



## bfree

Harken Banks said:


> My wife did not have sex on the beach with the guy. I think it is understandable that reading the thread someone might come away with that understanding because I was never very clear myself on what had happened and a number of posters, with honest intentions, were trying to convince me that she had, but it didn't happen.


So it was just an EA?


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## Aunt Ava

Umm..."Just" an EA???? Lets not minimize her affair, nor forget the sexting.


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## Rags

bfree said:


> So it was just an EA?


Cos that's ok ....

:scratchhead:

(Yeah, I know many people, me included, consider EAs to be lesser than PAs - but 'just' an EA doesn't really address the gravity and destructiveness entailed, as I understand it. I'm thinking, the difference between tac-nuke and ICBM ... - both can kill you ...)


----------



## bfree

Rags said:


> Cos that's ok ....
> 
> :scratchhead:
> 
> (Yeah, I know many people, me included, consider EAs to be lesser than PAs - but 'just' an EA doesn't really address the gravity and destructiveness entailed, as I understand it. I'm thinking, the difference between tac-nuke and ICBM ... - both can kill you ...)


No its not. But a poster named Harken Banks made that comment yesterday in regard to sayjellybeans.


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## Aunt Ava

Point taken. Actually, he minimized it, she only flirted with OM.



Harken Banks said:


> Sayjellybeans. She is divorced. And struggled with the end of her marriage. Probably has some things in common with Tears, only she did not sleep with OM, just flirted, and had a much more protracted break.


----------



## Harken Banks

Aunt Ava said:


> Point taken. Actually, he minimized it, she only flirted with OM.


I did not mean to minimize. It lead to the unravelling of her marriage. No small thing. I was careless with my words. I don't remember if someone else had mentioned tears or whether there was another reason I noted the similarity (both of them went through for them anguishing break-ups precipitated by their infidelity, which they deeply regretted), but I thought having noted the similarity I should also note the distinction. I did that inartfully. I sometimes get aggitated and engage in rapid-fire typing around here and am prone to mistakes and to mistating or stating not quite or something unintentionally different than I have in mind sometimes.


----------



## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT?

Harken,

I have followed your story since the very beginning. I have always respected your intellect and appreciated your perspective. I would say I have "been a fan" from a TAM voyeur perspective. I have not previously posted, because I always thought you seemed to have a pretty good handle on things. Or were getting some good advice from people smarter than I on this site.

But I feel the need to pose a question. Do you feel you have changed your thinking and behavior somewhat dramatically over the last few months? As an outsider looking in, I have to say I get a much different feel when reading your posts since mid November.

I used to feel your pain, your suffering and your vulnerability. But over the last few months, when I catch up on your posts, all I feel is your anger, your resentment and your need to punish. It feels like you are working to punish your wife, and yourself, to be honest.

Your destructive behavior is not good for you, or your family. You are absolutely entitled to defining what happiness looks like for your future. Reconciled or divorced. But living in this constant state of limbo is incredibly destructive to both you and your wife, not to mention your children! And you are a bright guy, and I am guessing, know this to be true in those moments when you are honest wih yourself. So what would be the reason to continue to force this state of damaging limbo? You aren't happy. Your wife is not happy. Your family is coming apart at the seams.

Yes, both you and your wife made mistakes. But don't both of you still deserve happiness? Stop the punishment. Stop the games. Define your happiness and then pursue it with gusto. 

And I am not implying that you, or your wife's happiness means reconcilliation. But it does mean closure on this current cycle of destructive limbo, and then some sort of progress forward.

I wish you the best, and I wish you to achieve personal peace.


----------



## Harken Banks

AMU said:


> I had always hoped that HB would come around and want something else. Sounds like from all the e-mails tonight he is clear on the path to divorce. Many seem to wonder why I care about all this if we’re separated. Since he has said over and over that we separated over his objection, I thought this timeline would be helpful – separation (if that is really what you call where we are) was driven by his actions - I was actually following what I understood to be the TAM script.
> 
> *Tuesday, Jan 1st:* HB tells me he no longer wants to be married; return home to flooding disaster at the house.
> 
> *Wednesday, January 2nd: * Counseling appointment with MC after surveying the damage at the house together that morning. HB held me in the house, said this is our house, our family and we could fix it.
> *
> Thursday, January 17th:* Counseling appointment with MC, the day after our trip to New Orleans. She was anxious to hear how it went and after listening to both of us explain about our trip and near the end of our session, she said that after she felt that we had been on a really good path in our initial sessions in Nov and Dec, she was feeling that HB had either one or both feet out of the relationship and asked whether it might good to take some time away to figure out what he wanted. HB said that he felt that separated would be contrary to the marriage and signal the end of things and she said she wasn’t suggesting separating. She said she called it nesting and explained her thoughts about getting a shared other location (apt, room, etc) where one person went while the other stayed with the kids while we continued to work on the marriage. I said that was exactly what I recommended back in October and she said “See, you’re still together” and I told her that we had not done it, because HB said if that happened, it was over, he would date other people, so I didn’t move forward with the idea. She gave us a homework assignment to work on about what we each felt was needed to help us move forward.
> 
> *Wednesday, January 23rd:* Appointment with MC where we filled her in on a disastrous weekend with lots of arguing – HB still very raw over the affair. MC said that although she had previously suggested nesting as a way to allow HB time to figure out what he wanted, at this point she felt we were in an unhealthy situation for the kids and we needed to do something else and again suggested “nesting.” HB said he saw that as separation and if that is what we were going to do, he would date other people. MC asked him whether he would agree not to date other people and he said no, he saw that as the end and it would be time to move on and seek the affection and care elsewhere that he hadn’t been getting. MC asked HB whether he would be willing to date me, and he said no, he didn’t want to “date” his wife. We left that counseling session with no resolution – just that there were two options – stop arguing in front of the kids or nesting. He went to lunch with his friends, told them we were separating and called around to find out about apartments. I suggested we take the girls to dinner, HB declined and reestablished the match.com account listing himself as separated and sent out 5 requests for coffee dates.
> 
> *Thursday, January 24th:* HB and I were both working from home, I left to pick up the girls from daycare/take them to Girl Scout meetings and HB isn’t home when I return. Find his match.com account and learn he is on a dinner date at the restaurant right next to our house. Afterward, he takes his date on a tour of our currently being renovated house. Earlier that day I sent what I thought was a nice note to HB saying "thanks for being my husband - I love you" and you responded "it was my pleasure” (past tense intentional). I asked whether that meant it was official, that he was done trying and he never responded. After returning home from his date, HB climbed into bed with me, told me where he’d been and that it hadn’t gone well and said he’d really like to have sex then but knew I wouldn’t be interested. This was one day after our counselor had advocated nesting, we hadn’t sat down and talked about what we were going to do with that advice and my husband was already on match.com and had already gone on a date…
> 
> *Friday, January 25th - Saturday, January 26th:* HB left for the mountain with three of the girls – I told him that I couldn’t be around him while he was sending e-mails to and getting together with other women. He said that he understood, but that he missed that I was coming. We had a couple nice back and forth exchanges and calls – HB seemed to be trying and said he’d take his match.com profile down. I checked throughout the weekend and found that it would go back and forth between being up and hidden. When I asked why he kept turning his profile on and off, he said that he would get angry, feel hopeless about things and start e-mailing women.
> 
> *Tuesday, January 29th:* HB claimed to be trying to work on us (i.e. sending I love you e-mails from the mountain, helping my efforts with the girls by selling Girl Scout cookies at his office, getting the Blu-ray player from our house so we could watch a movie) while continuing to be active on match.com and send e-mails and sharing phone calls with other woman. We were still sleeping together in the same bed each night. It was at this point that I put my foot down – I said that I couldn’t remain in the same house, sleeping in the same bed, as someone who wanting to be out “meeting other people” as he kept putting it. He told me several times that he didn’t talk about sex or anything sexual to any of them, as if that made it ok and not a complete breech of our marriage. I told him I was going to cancel the appointment with MC the next day since it appeared he wanted instead to move forward with other people.
> 
> *Wednesday, January 30th: * I asked again whether I should cancel the appointment with MC (inwardly hoping you would say, hey, I’ll cancel the account now, stop all this nonsense and let’s focus on us) and he said “I thought you already did.” So I called her and cancelled. I said I couldn’t keep doing this, being in the same house with someone who clearly wanted other people instead of me and said that I would leave the house the following week, since that would put us on a schedule where he would have the girls over February break (when he would be at the mountain coaching and they would be in their ski programs). He contacted a babysitter to help him with the kids the following week. He then got busy on match.com with significant amounts of e-mails being sent (I had his password because he uses the same one for all accounts).
> 
> *Friday, February 1st:* We were still living in the same house, sleeping in the same bed. HB went on an afternoon coffee date with a women he has been e-mailing with extensively (who was clearly really into HB). That night he was all lovey dovey, told me all about his coffee date when asked and said that he wished you could stay home from the mountain that weekend since the weather report was so cruddy and he just wanted to stay home in bed with me. We had decided that I would stay home with three of the girls on account of the weather and the fact they had other activities (parties, sleepovers) in town. HB kept asking to sit down and talk, but when we would talk, he wouldn’t say anything other than IF we are separated, he needed to move on. And he said he felt we were separated. I had told him again that I couldn’t move forward with someone who was dating or meeting others, with someone who turns his match.com account on and off when he starts to feel bad about the relationship. It wasn’t until he had spent a full week reaching out to other women that I said, hey, no more. Yet even then when he asked several times whether he needed a babysitter the following week to help him with the kid duties, I didn’t give him an answer other than I would be there Monday morning. In my mind, the rest was up to him. Either he stopped the match.com madness or yes, I was leaving.
> 
> *Sunday, February 3rd:* Sunday night when he returned from the mountain we talked again and I asked why the heck he had turned his match.com account from visible to not visible several times that weekend. He said that every time he started feeling hopeless about us, he felt he needed to move forward. So it goes – he wanted to keep all his options open and continues to do so (think that’s referred to as cake eating in TAM). I called HB’s parents in tears, told them he was still on match.com and I couldn’t stay in the same house as a result and asked whether it would be OK to come stay with them for the upcoming week. His mom said of course.
> 
> *Monday, February 4th:* After making breakfast for the girls and getting them off to school, I took a bag and went to his parents’ house. He kept asking to talk but never said anything when we did other that “we’re separated, and I said if we’re separated I needed to move on.” HB says in his posts that we separated over his objection, but he was the one who jumped into separation from the moment we left the MC without any conversation on the topic between the two of us, started calling us separated to his friends and to his match.com contacts and then was not willing to stop the madness when I said I couldn’t move forward with or stay with someone who wants to be with others. He sent me a note that day saying that he was no longer welcome at his parents’ condo at the mountain but that the girls and I were. I later learned that his parents said he was absolutely welcome, but only if he would either see a psychiatrist (scheduled for next week) or went to AA.
> 
> *Friday, February 8th:* I came to the house about noon to pack the girls and myself for the mountain. We didn’t discuss traveling together and it never crossed my mind that we would, since I had no idea where he was staying and we would both need a car to get around at the mountain – he said maybe a hotel, maybe with his two best friends. After I left for the mountain, HB reached out to old girlfriend (his EA partner from Feb 2011-Sept 2011 to whom he had sent a do-not-contact note back in Aug 2012, talked to her for a long time that day before leaving and then was in contact with her for the next five days. Originally admitted only two phone calls to her, but when I delved in further and asked for phone records, he admitted more. Over five hours of phone conversations with old girlfriend, including talking about HB’s desire for sex, to which old GF noted that he needed to sow his oats with several people before he would be ready for her.
> 
> *Tuesday, February 12th:* I learned about the phone conversations with old girlfriend because he was staying at the house with me and the kids and talking on the phone to old GF. Heard his conversation and asked who he was talking to. From February 12th onward, we have always been in the same house (either the rental or mountain house), but on most nights since that time have slept in separate beds.
> 
> *Wednesday, February 13th: * HB asked whether I would like to go to dinner on Thurs if he got a sitter and I said that would be nice.
> 
> *Thursday, February 14th:* HB made a fantastic effort for Valentine’s Day – he gave me flowers, some chocolate and a funny card. HB arranged for a babysitter and we went to dinner, but it was awkward and conversation was uncomfortable. I know HB wanted it to be a nice evening, but it also seemed to me that he wanted to erase all of the above and go on as if things were all normal – we have work to do. HB has hidden his match.com profile – a good start.
> 
> *Saturday, February 16 – Tuesday, February 19th:* All of us at the mountain. HB and I enjoyed date night (a rarity) on Sunday night. Skied together on Monday. Also had some great sex over those days. Went to dinner Tuesday night with the girls before I planned to drive home for work Wed-Fri – HB is drinking, I asked about what he was going to do about that (girls were in video game room)and he got pissed - packed up dinner and went home. Bad ending to what had been a nice weekend.
> 
> Since that time – living together under the same roof, doing things with the kids, visiting stores to finalize decisions on the house. One woman from match.com who skis at the mountain each weekend e-mailed him about getting together this week. He told her he wasn’t sure what was up with us (he seemed to have a very clear idea in his posts today). HB has been e-mailing (using personal e-mail accounts) back and forth with SJB for the last several weeks. And he has been pursuing an every other week rental option for the 1 week on, 1 week off idea - originally posed as “nesting” by the MC, but with the exception of the four nights I spent at his parents, we have been living in the same house this entire time. We are together at the mountain this weekend – had lunch together today, sharing a plate of nachos. He called me last Friday to say he found a place and asked what he should do. I told him that he needed to make that decision - that I had been clear on what I needed - stop match.com for good (no checking it, no turning it back on if he is upset or mad and absolutely no contact with anyone from there, even if one of them contacts him) and never have any sort of communication with old GF again (not even through her friends).
> 
> As for the attorney, last Tuesday (Feb 26th), I contacted a local attorney to ask about a consult to understand what I would be facing in case of a divorce. Because HB saw an attorney to do the same thing back in August, I knew they need tax returns to be able to help me understand the financial aspects involved. Because HB is the keeper of our tax information, I asked him for copies of the last several years of returns. HB spent two hours with a divorce attorney in August and I just learned today that he spent another 2.5 hours with a different divorce attorney discussing custody issues in October. Many individuals, including my IC, have been urging me for some time to go see an attorney so that I have a realistic picture of what things would look like. I have been dragging my feet, but in light of HB’s actions and intentions over the past two months, I do think I need to protect myself by understanding the landscape – it is a due diligence that has already been undertaken extensively by my husband. I don’t have an appointment scheduled, but it is something I plan to do.
> 
> I will probably be attacked as a pushover for letting this just keep rolling along, hoping he will decide he wants something different – he has said to me over and over and over during the past two months that he wants our marriage and doesn’t want separation, so I hold out hope. But at the same time, he isn’t willing to stop the calls and contacts with other woman and continues to drown his sorrows in alcohol. At the end of the day, it takes two to make a marriage work and perhaps ours will not. But no matter what, I do hope that HB will get the help that he needs in healing himself.
> 
> If you’re still reading, thanks for bearing with me on this very long post.


I just took the time to go through this. There is a lot that I do not agree with. The rest, to me, is just slanted. Re-written.


----------



## Harken Banks

Aunt Ava said:


> What I don't understand is if you are divorcing, then what does AMU gain from painting you a cheater and disparaging you to family, friends and Internet strangers?


AD and another poster, maybe iheartlife, had a conversation about this phenomenon or one right next to it in another thread. The EA thread, I think. My impression is that she wants to embarrass me. I can forgive that. Plus, I have no shame so there is no point in it anyway.


----------



## bfree

He Said She Said - Limp Bizkit

Its just one a those days when you dont wanna wake up
Everything is fvcked, everybody sucks
You dont really know why, but you wanna justify
Rrippin someones head off
No human contact, and if you interact your life is on contract
Your best bet is to stay away mother fvcker
Its just wanna those days

REFRAIN:
Its all about the he said she said bull sh!t
I think you better quit, lettin sh!t slip
Or youll be leavin with a fat lip
Its all about the he said she said bull sh!t
I think you better quit, talkin that sh!t


----------



## Harken Banks

I did it all for the nookie.

Kidding. I did not want to get into he said she said so I left it at I do not agree.


----------



## Harken Banks

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> But I feel the need to pose a question. Do you feel you have changed your thinking and behavior somewhat dramatically over the last few months? As an outsider looking in, I have to say I get a much different feel when reading your posts since mid November.


I feel a lot more detachment. Like I had been just swimming in this stuff. And then I wasn't. Then I was not in it, just looking at it.



NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> I used to feel your pain, your suffering and your vulnerability. But over the last few months, when I catch up on your posts, all I feel is your anger, your resentment and your need to punish. It feels like you are working to punish your wife, and yourself, to be honest.


Anger is exhausting. I no longer seem to have the stamina to sustain it. Every now and then it comes over me, but then I stop seeing the point and lose interest.

I had not sensed within me the need or desire to punish. I have no conscious awareness of or interest in it. But, then, a lot of behavior is reflexive. And it has taken me some time in the past to recognize things that were right before me.

Thank you. Very good post. I enjoyed it and it caused me to reflect.


----------



## Jonesey

*Re: Sv: Re: Initial foray*



pidge70 said:


> This is where I get my observation from.


I humble stand corrected-- thanks for clearing it up


----------



## Lovemytruck

_Thursday, January 17th: Counseling appointment with MC, the day after our trip to New Orleans. She was anxious to hear how it went and after listening to both of us explain about our trip and near the end of our session, she said that after she felt that we had been on a really good path in our initial sessions in Nov and Dec, she was feeling that HB had either one or both feet out of the relationship and asked whether it might good to take some time away to figure out what he wanted. HB said that he felt that separated would be contrary to the marriage and signal the end of things and she said she wasn’t suggesting separating. She said she called it nesting and explained her thoughts about getting a shared other location (apt, room, etc) where one person went while the other stayed with the kids while we continued to work on the marriage. I said that was exactly what I recommended back in October and she said “See, you’re still together” and I told her that we had not done it, because HB said if that happened, it was over, he would date other people, so I didn’t move forward with the idea. She gave us a homework assignment to work on about what we each felt was needed to help us move forward.

Wednesday, January 23rd: Appointment with MC where we filled her in on a disastrous weekend with lots of arguing – HB still very raw over the affair. MC said that although she had previously suggested nesting as a way to allow HB time to figure out what he wanted, at this point she felt we were in an unhealthy situation for the kids and we needed to do something else and again suggested “nesting.” HB said he saw that as separation and if that is what we were going to do, he would date other people. MC asked him whether he would agree not to date other people and he said no, he saw that as the end and it would be time to move on and seek the affection and care elsewhere that he hadn’t been getting. MC asked HB whether he would be willing to date me, and he said no, he didn’t want to “date” his wife. We left that counseling session with no resolution – just that there were two options – stop arguing in front of the kids or nesting. He went to lunch with his friends, told them we were separating and called around to find out about apartments. I suggested we take the girls to dinner, HB declined and reestablished the match.com account listing himself as separated and sent out 5 requests for coffee dates._ 

I have not read all of this thread. I have followed it off and on since it was initially posted. My thoughts might be off the mark, but....

It seems that HB is being *told* what he has to do to fix the marriage. He had an honest opinion as expressed in the words above, and yet he was *over-ruled* by the MC and AMU.

Denying a hurt man power to chose how to fix the problem then became a challenge to his integrity with the promise he made to date other people.

I also see the match.com account as an open warning that he is/was ready to back up his words with actions.

I went through a similar phase where I openly decided to let my exWW know that I was moving on. It is like an unspoken ILYBNILWY speech. It seems HB loved AMU but know is coming to a point where his head and heart are giving him mixed signals.

For me it was much easier to accept the end with a new goal or person in mind. 

Maybe not a RA, but more like a rebuttal relationship. 

For me it was not about sex, but it was about acceptance.

Ironically, it is the path mostly chosen by women that decide to leave. HB and I both did it by being honest and not covering it up. Walk away husbands? Lol! That sounds alpha! Actually that is what I believe alpha crowd suggests. She chose to separate, now he choses to move on. Sounds like a struggle to have control on AMU's part.

Not saying HB is a saint, but he is open and honest. Being honest does not mean he can't feel one thing one day, and the opposite the next.

It is my guess that he is now detaching while still trying to be honest when he remembers the love he sometimes feels or felt.

It is probably like an emotional or relationship death from cancer.


----------



## Aunt Ava

Harken Banks said:


> I did not mean to minimize. It lead to the unravelling of her marriage. No small thing. I was careless with my words. I don't remember if someone else had mentioned tears or whether there was another reason I noted the similarity (both of them went through for them anguishing break-ups precipitated by their infidelity, which they deeply regretted), but I thought having noted the similarity I should also note the distinction. I did that inartfully. I sometimes get aggitated and engage in rapid-fire typing around here and am prone to mistakes and to mistating or stating not quite or something unintentionally different than I have in mind sometimes.


Hey, no worries. I was being facetious.


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> I feel a lot more detachment. Like I had been just swimming in this stuff. And then I wasn't. Then I was not in it, just looking at it.
> 
> 
> 
> Anger is exhausting. I no longer seem to have the stamina to sustain it. Every now and then it comes over me, but then I stop seeing the point and lose interest.
> 
> I had not sensed within me the need or desire to punish. I have no conscious awareness of or interest in it. But, then, a lot of behavior is reflexive. And it has taken me some time in the past to recognize things that were right before me.
> 
> Thank you. Very good post. I enjoyed it and it caused me to reflect.


It caused me to pause and reflect.

Does it make you want to do anything differently HB?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

Lovemytruck said:


> _Thursday, January 17th: Counseling appointment with MC, the day after our trip to New Orleans. She was anxious to hear how it went and after listening to both of us explain about our trip and near the end of our session, she said that after she felt that we had been on a really good path in our initial sessions in Nov and Dec, she was feeling that HB had either one or both feet out of the relationship and asked whether it might good to take some time away to figure out what he wanted. HB said that he felt that separated would be contrary to the marriage and signal the end of things and she said she wasn’t suggesting separating. She said she called it nesting and explained her thoughts about getting a shared other location (apt, room, etc) where one person went while the other stayed with the kids while we continued to work on the marriage. I said that was exactly what I recommended back in October and she said “See, you’re still together” and I told her that we had not done it, because HB said if that happened, it was over, he would date other people, so I didn’t move forward with the idea. She gave us a homework assignment to work on about what we each felt was needed to help us move forward.
> 
> Wednesday, January 23rd: Appointment with MC where we filled her in on a disastrous weekend with lots of arguing – HB still very raw over the affair. MC said that although she had previously suggested nesting as a way to allow HB time to figure out what he wanted, at this point she felt we were in an unhealthy situation for the kids and we needed to do something else and again suggested “nesting.” HB said he saw that as separation and if that is what we were going to do, he would date other people. MC asked him whether he would agree not to date other people and he said no, he saw that as the end and it would be time to move on and seek the affection and care elsewhere that he hadn’t been getting. MC asked HB whether he would be willing to date me, and he said no, he didn’t want to “date” his wife. We left that counseling session with no resolution – just that there were two options – stop arguing in front of the kids or nesting. He went to lunch with his friends, told them we were separating and called around to find out about apartments. I suggested we take the girls to dinner, HB declined and reestablished the match.com account listing himself as separated and sent out 5 requests for coffee dates._
> 
> I have not read all of this thread. I have followed it off and on since it was initially posted. My thoughts might be off the mark, but....
> 
> It seems that HB is being *told* what he has to do to fix the marriage. He had an honest opinion as expressed in the words above, and yet he was *over-ruled* by the MC and AMU.
> 
> Denying a hurt man power to chose how to fix the problem then became a challenge to his integrity with the promise he made to date other people.
> 
> I also see the match.com account as an open warning that he is/was ready to back up his words with actions.
> 
> I went through a similar phase where I openly decided to let my exWW know that I was moving on. It is like an unspoken ILYBNILWY speech. It seems HB loved AMU but know is coming to a point where his head and heart are giving him mixed signals.
> 
> For me it was much easier to accept the end with a new goal or person in mind.
> 
> Maybe not a RA, but more like a rebuttal relationship.
> 
> For me it was not about sex, but it was about acceptance.
> 
> Ironically, it is the path mostly chosen by women that decide to leave. HB and I both did it by being honest and not covering it up. Walk away husbands? Lol! That sounds alpha! Actually that is what I believe alpha crowd suggests. She chose to separate, now he choses to move on. Sounds like a struggle to have control on AMU's part.
> 
> Not saying HB is a saint, but he is open and honest. Being honest does not mean he can't feel one thing one day, and the opposite the next.
> 
> It is my guess that he is now detaching while still trying to be honest when he remembers the love he sometimes feels or felt.
> 
> It is probably like an emotional or relationship death from cancer.


Honesty is when you reach a decision and discuss it with your wife for a desired outcome.

Not have your wife read text messages or read the pages on TAM to try to discern. Where your marriage lies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lovemytruck

happyman64 said:


> Honesty is when you reach a decision and discuss it with your wife for a desired outcome.
> 
> Not have your wife read text messages or read the pages on TAM to try to discern. Where your marriage lies.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe.

It seems the decision is not made. It seems he is honest about about not knowing what he wants.

In my opinion decisiveness does not equal honesty.

Secrecy with texts? HB probably really doesn't care if she reads them or not. Obviously he openly is pursing other interests.

Not saying it is all good, just saying that after eating so much bullsh!t on a bun, he is done.

Go back and re-read the hurt he felt when he had his d-day. It is now being manifested in his actions.

As a BH, I find it interesting that we (BH or BW) frequently end up being the villians when we act out of our hurt or betrayal.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Whew! I knew my opinion would be a lightning rod. It is difficult to speculate.

I think I felt obligated to give my perspective because it was similar to my story.


----------



## Acabado

Lovemytruck said:


> Maybe.
> 
> It seems the decision is not made. It seems he is honest about about not knowing what he wants.
> 
> In my opinion decisiveness does not equal honesty.
> 
> Secrecy with texts? HB probably really doesn't care if she reads them or not. Obviously he openly is pursing other interests.
> 
> Not saying it is all good, just saying that after eating so much bullsh!t on a bun, he is done.
> 
> Go back and re-read the hurt he felt when he had his d-day. It is now being manifested in his actions.
> 
> *As a BH, I find it interesting that we (BH or BW) frequently end up being the villians when we act out of our hurt or betrayal.*


Agree... mostly.
The bolded part is bassicaly wayward mindset. Tons, tons of them (i'd say most) act out out their hurts even betrayal. I doesn't necessary equates to indifelity tough. Being cheated on is not the only way a spouse can hurt. This train of process of "my hurt is worse" leads nowhere except to justify poor choices.
Letting youself off the hook is wayward thinking. Personal responsability doesn't doesnt vanish because you were cheated on.
No grey areas for me.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Acabado said:


> Agree... mostly.
> The bolded part is bassicaly wayward mindset. Tons, tons of them (i'd say most) act out out their hurts even betrayal. I doesn't necessary equates to indifelity tough. Being cheated on is not the only way a spouse can hurt. This train of process of "my hurt is worse" leads nowhere except to justify poor choices.
> Letting youself off the hook is wayward thinking. Personal responsability doesn't doesnt vanish because you were cheated on.
> No grey areas for me.


I agree with your thoughts completely.

The hurt cuts deeply both ways.

It seems that the BS often turns into the inflicter (word?) of pain on the backside of the limbo phase.

My assumption is that decisive breaks hurt less. That is what my death by cancer suggests in the earlier post.

I had a wise, older gentleman for a MC at the point where I decided to D. My exWW attempted to reign me in when I told her I was moving out and ready to find a new wife. She had refused counselling for over a year during her A and our R. 

He used a religious analogy that Christ cleared the temple of the moneychangers. He also told me to grow a pair, and make a decision. Not deciding is WORSE than D. Limbo is worse than D. My experience for sure.

Harken Banks sounds like me at that point. Just grinding to a bitter end after a futile attempt to R successfully. Now he is bad because he follows through with the threat to date if she separated from him. 

His approach is not mericiful to AMU. I agree. I also think I understand why he is doing it. I tried to balance honesty with my sense of what I deserved. Entitlement to a new relationship that did not have her betrayal in it. Sure, it made my exWW hurt like Hell, but that is why I did it. I also had a hard time just cutting her off completely (my exWW).

Maybe he is tired of being merciful. Maybe he just wants to feel good again. I don't know. Probably a little of both.

It is all speculation for us.

My decision to grow a pair and D was best for myself and my exWW. She is now free to change, put it behind her, grow on a personal level, re-discover herself, and happily re-marry when the time is right. AMU is in that boat.

D for me was the end of a nightmare.  

My "soul mate" of 23 years had crashed, blameshifted, rugswept, and had to deal with my anguish. Was I completely decent? No. Did I always adhere to my beliefs? No. 

Regrets? Mostly that I didn't cut her out of my life closer to the first d-day. The problem for me was my guilt of ending the marriage, and me trying to allow more time for a R (8 months of TT and more d-days). D is scary when you first approach it.

I hope others in limbo with reflect on these posts and choose what is least hurtful for them. Hurting others really serves no purpose.

Maybe, just maybe, my ex WW will never cheat on anyone again. That sounds evil. Lol!


----------



## old timer

Yup - limbo sucks a big one.


----------



## Harken Banks

happyman64 said:


> Honesty is when you reach a decision and discuss it with your wife for a desired outcome.
> 
> Not have your wife read text messages or read the pages on TAM to try to discern. Where your marriage lies.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lovemytruck seems to get this pretty well.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Harken Banks said:


> Lovemytruck seems to get this pretty well.


And my experience that taught me SUCKED. 

I am sure you understand that too.

Good luck, and know that you will make it through this.


----------



## Lovemytruck

One more note, if I wasn't happily re-married, I would try to flirt with alte Dame. Just sayin'! 

I think she "gets it" as well as most.


----------



## Harken Banks

I would too, but I am afraid I would get my knuckles rapped.


----------



## Shoshan1290

I think the major mistake that was made here was the two of them bringing this to the internet instead of working it out properly and with a counselor/medium. Instead of this being a place to get some unbiased perspective, it became a battleground for the two of them to try to besmirch the other person.

I'm sure that there are truths to what both of them are saying. I'm sure that some of what they are saying is also exaggerated or adjusted to fit each of their individual cases.

Harken -- my main issue with you, though, is that in your need to maintain "transparency" you become, arguably, cruel. Your wife was able to read any and all communications. The fact is she betrayed you first so there is bound to be that lingering insecurity of "Well maybe he will do the same to me now." Her paranoia pushed her over the edge into abusing that transparency by constantly monitoring it -- sometimes before you had even read the contents -- and your lack of empathy allowed her to do so.

What you should have done is changed those passwords and not continued to allow her to read things that are obviously going to cause her torment.

My summation of the situation is this: While your wife messed up and you guys gave it a shot to reconcile you are BOTH responsible for this mess now. You need to do each other a favor and stop making emails and communications visible. You need to be good parents and people. Learn from this situation -- both of you -- and do better next time. This marriage is, from an outside perspective, not salvageable.

Time to stop the mud-flinging, children, and move on.


----------



## Harken Banks

Shoshan1290 said:


> I think the major mistake that was made here was the two of them bringing this to the internet instead of working it out properly and with a counselor/medium. Instead of this being a place to get some unbiased perspective, it became a battleground for the two of them to try to besmirch the other person.
> 
> I'm sure that there are truths to what both of them are saying. I'm sure that some of what they are saying is also exaggerated or adjusted to fit each of their individual cases.
> 
> Harken -- my main issue with you, though, is that in your need to maintain "transparency" you become, arguably, cruel. Your wife was able to read any and all communications. The fact is she betrayed you first so there is bound to be that lingering insecurity of "Well maybe he will do the same to me now." Her paranoia pushed her over the edge into abusing that transparency by constantly monitoring it -- sometimes before you had even read the contents -- and your lack of empathy allowed her to do so.
> 
> What you should have done is changed those passwords and not continued to allow her to read things that are obviously going to cause her torment.
> 
> My summation of the situation is this: While your wife messed up and you guys gave it a shot to reconcile you are BOTH responsible for this mess now. You need to do each other a favor and stop making emails and communications visible. You need to be good parents and people. Learn from this situation -- both of you -- and do better next time. This marriage is, from an outside perspective, not salvageable.
> 
> Time to stop the mud-flinging, children, and move on.


Thank you. I did not come here to fight with my wife. I came trying to cope with infidelity.


----------



## staystrong

My god, you two are complicated!

This relationship needs a giant enema.

All I know is if you two divorce, your future partners are going to go crazy because you will still be up in each other's business!

I prefer to envision the two of you holding hands in your sunset years, watching your grandkids play and feeling humble at what life has to offer you. 

2 cents from a lurker..


----------



## happyman64

Lovemytruck said:


> Maybe.
> 
> It seems the decision is not made. It seems he is honest about about not knowing what he wants.
> 
> In my opinion decisiveness does not equal honesty.
> 
> Secrecy with texts? HB probably really doesn't care if she reads them or not. Obviously he openly is pursing other interests.
> 
> Not saying it is all good, just saying that after eating so much bullsh!t on a bun, he is done.
> 
> Go back and re-read the hurt he felt when he had his d-day. It is now being manifested in his actions.
> 
> As a BH, I find it interesting that we (BH or BW) frequently end up being the villians when we act out of our hurt or betrayal.


I have been reading and posting since day one.

If it was me and I was their MC I would lock both of them in the same closet for 24 hours until they come to their senses and realize what they both are about to lose.

And I do not think HB is the villain.

But his contact with his old GF and his texting are juvenile. So is the alcohol.

And AMU is guilty as charged. Hell she is a lawyer. Who wants to argue with her? You can never win with an attorney even when they are wrong......


----------



## bfree

happyman64 said:


> I have been reading and posting since day one.
> 
> *If it was me and I was their MC I would lock both of them in the same closet for 24 hours until they come to their senses and realize what they both are about to lose.*
> And I do not think HB is the villain.
> 
> But his contact with his old GF and his texting are juvenile. So is the alcohol.
> 
> And AMU is guilty as charged. Hell she is a lawyer. Who wants to argue with her? You can never win with an attorney even when they are wrong......


The only thing that would come of that is that their children would become orphans. Not because they would intentionally injure each other but because they would stubbornly refuse to agree on anything and would both die of starvation.


----------



## Lovemytruck

happyman64 said:


> I have been reading and posting since day one.
> 
> If it was me and I was their MC I would lock both of them in the same closet for 24 hours until they come to their senses and realize what they both are about to lose.
> 
> And I do not think HB is the villain.
> 
> But his contact with his old GF and his texting are juvenile. So is the alcohol.
> 
> And AMU is guilty as charged. Hell she is a lawyer. Who wants to argue with her? You can never win with an attorney even when they are wrong......


I am literally laughing my @ss off!

It is sad, but that is about how bad my first marriage became as well.

My point is simply that a D is better than limbo, and the end of limbo is often UGLY!!

HB it is time. Time to cut bait and fish. And you probably already know that.

Our new challenge is to keep the poison out of our future relationships.

I sure see myself in this thread!!!


----------



## Harken Banks

bfree said:


> The only thing that would come of that is that their children would become orphans. Not because they would intentionally injure each other but because they would stubbornly refuse to agree on anything and would both die of starvation.


You underestimate my wife. It would be Thunderdome.


----------



## bfree

Harken Banks said:


> You underestimate my wife. It would be Thunderdome.


Okay, that was a good one.


----------



## alte Dame

Lovemytruck said:


> One more note, if I wasn't happily re-married, I would try to flirt with alte Dame. Just sayin'!
> 
> I think she "gets it" as well as most.





Harken Banks said:


> I would too, but I am afraid I would get my knuckles rapped.


Thank you, you sweet men .

(As for the knuckle-rapping, I am actually a really soft touch - the sort of teacher who always wants to believe that the dog really did eat the homework.)


----------



## old timer

alte Dame said:


> (As for the knuckle-rapping, I am actually a really soft touch - the sort of teacher who always wants to believe that the dog really did eat the homework.)


All that - and such a little hottie, too


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

EI said:


> You need to read the whole thread, and AMU's thread as well, because there is sooooooooo much more to this than what you appear to know of the situation.


EI, from where I sit, Aunt Ava seems to have a much clearer picture of the situation. Apologies for jumping back several pages, I was just reading some of things I missed first time around, including this.


----------



## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> _Quote:
> Originally Posted by EI
> And, Mrs. Banks............???
> 
> You might know better than me. Doing her best, I am sure.
> 
> Being on the mountain was never her favorite thing. But she has made the effort, for which I am grateful. She was up 3 days at the beggining of the week (we even took a few runs together Monday while I played hookie from my coaching gig) and has plans to come back tonight for the weekend. I am looking forward to that. She also spent much of yesterday looking at tile for the bathrooms and laundry room so that we can finally complete the house project. I am grateful for that as well.
> 
> For my part, I was going to try to resist the impulse to air my emotions here. I slipped up a bit at 7:15. I apologize to AMU for that. While I enjoy hearing from you and the interaction here, I am now going back to trying to honor her very sensible request._
> 
> Doesn't sound separated a few days ago.


We were. That was posted in a moment of detente. She chose not to come. So, as planned, it was me and the girls for the week.


----------



## Aunt Ava

Thanks for clarifying the situation.


----------



## Harken Banks

Things my 6-year old tells me. I should start a blog. Earlier tonight at night-night time:

S: Dadda?

HB: Yeah?

S: You know you could keep living in this house [the rental] if you keep paying for it.

HB: Yeah, I suppose.

S: Because mom is going to live with us in the giant house [our house] until we find another place.

HB: Oh? Who told you that?

S: Mama.

HB: When?

S: I don't know. A long time ago.


----------



## EI

Aunt Ava said:


> Sad, you now have a small taste of the pain he suffered through your affair.
> I was under the impression that you were divorcing? If so, why are you monitoring his texts?
> It is not for us to judge his texts as appropriate or not, he is moving on and he is an adult.





EI said:


> You need to read the whole thread, and AMU's thread as well, because there is sooooooooo much more to this than what you appear to know of the situation.





Harken Banks said:


> EI, from where I sit, Aunt Ava seems to have a much clearer picture of the situation. Apologies for jumping back several pages, I was just reading some of things I missed first time around, including this.



On that note, I will bow out of your thread, HB. But, I want you to know that I wish nothing but the very best for you, AMU, and your girls, no matter what choices you and AMU ultimately make regarding the future of your marriage. I've followed your thread since the day you originally posted it. I've always held out hope for you and AMU. I still do...... Now, I simply hope that you all find peace and happiness, whatever that may be. 

Take care, HB
~EI


----------



## Harken Banks

and then she fell asleep.


----------



## Harken Banks

EI said:


> On that note, I will bow out of your thread, HB. But, I want you to know that I wish nothing but the very best for you, AMU, and your girls, no matter what choices you and AMU ultimately make regarding the future of your marriage. I've followed your thread since the day you originally posted it. I've always held out hope for you and AMU. I still do...... Now, I simply hope that you all find peace and happiness, whatever that may be.
> 
> Take care, HB
> ~EI


I know you have EI. And I have appreciated it. I'd like you to stay. My third grade teachers were a married couple [now divorced], Mr. and Mrs. Schroeder. Progressive and creative. And attractive. They were both models for the LL Bean catalog back in the day. And good teachers. We had a big card-board and humanoid faux computer in the classroom named "IALAC." I am loveable and capable. That's a bit of an aside. What I learned from IALAC that I still remember is garbage in, garbage out.


----------



## Harken Banks

Rollo Tomasi


----------



## old timer

Laissez les bons temps rouler


----------



## Chaparral

Klingon?


----------



## old timer

chapparal said:


> Klingon?


:rofl:


----------



## Harken Banks

AMU is filing for divorce. I post that only for clarity. Which is what I asked from her. Took a number turns around the bush, but in the end there it was. I asked for clarity because she asked for separation, got it, then denied that she asked or even that we were separated. And then did her best to use what she culled from my computer and phone to embarrass me here -no big deal- but also before our friends and family, cutting and pasting and synopsizing. As was to be expected and par for the course, I was once again whipsawed pretty badly. I will not introduce them to Harken Banks and the saintly AMU, but sometimes I am tempted.

There is a lot of backstory and I am too tired to post it. Plus, as my mother used to say, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything.


----------



## happyman64

I am very sad for both of you and your children HB.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

happyman64 said:


> I am very sad for both of you and your children HB.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Me too. Thanks, HM. It is indeed very sad. And in my view, unnecessary. My clear preference is to fix the marriage and heal the family. As predicted, I have allowed this to be my undoing.


----------



## happyman64

You cannot do it alone HB.

It takes two.....


----------



## Harken Banks

happyman64 said:


> It takes two.....


It does. If wanting it with every fiber of your being and all of your heart were enough, it would be easy. I know that she has done her best. As have I.


----------



## Harken Banks

HM, I trust your daughter has been away from the fray?


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> HM, I trust your daughter has been away from the fray?


Thanks for asking. Yes, safe and sound in her dorm room.

I think the drama is over now.

And if you feel she has done her best and you have too then it is time to clean up the mess and focus on your future and the kids.


----------



## EI

I am so very sorry for you, AMU and the girls. I sincerely pray that each of you will eventually find healing, peace and happiness. Much love to you and your family. <3
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

EI said:


> I am so very sorry for you, AMU and the girls. I sincerely pray that each of you will eventually find healing, peace and happiness. Much love to you and your family. <3
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, EI. We will.


----------



## Acabado

So sorry to hear this.
Continued healing. Your entire family is in my thoughts.


----------



## Harken Banks

AMU, since you seem to be in the crowd, Hail Mary? No more separation, no weeks on/weeks off, no more separate vacations, no divorce, just our family?


----------



## Chaparral

I don't care what anyone says. In my many decades I have not seen one child that has not been sorely affected by divorce. Looking back on this, you will be part of the 80% who realized this too late.

If you have the mettle, google the statistics for children of divorce and put your children before your needs to be in the right and to villify the other. Maybe one of you can be the better man and make this family whole instead of just another common disaster.


----------



## Harken Banks

Thanks, Chap. I did that search. Our children are fantastic and we are both good parents to them. We have a tremendous amount to offer them. As I have said before, the thought of their beautiful world falling apart breaks my heart. I hope we find it within ourselves to keep this together. To remember or re-learn how to be good to each other and better custodians of our marriage and family. 

The pain has been considerable. For over a year I have been searching for a way to make it stop, and making lots of missteps and wrong turns. Understandably, it gets old for AMU. Neither of us has handled this process particularly well. I believe we can change that. Close this chapter and get back to taking care of and enjoying each other.

You will note that my tone has not been entirely consistent in these pages. This is where it re-sets to.

The reality is that for all of the pain we have exchanged, I love AMU and our family. It is looking pretty bleak right now, but it has looked bleak before. Yesterday she stated that it was her intention to file when she returns from vacation. But that hasn’t happened yet. I love you, AMU.


----------



## Chaparral

Great parents divorce, does not mean the kids will be OK. Didn't you say you coached s ski team. Haven't you coached divorced kids? I coached over twenty Little League, basketball, tee ball teams. I can tell you with 100% certainty the boys from divorced families broke my heart. Its not a little difference, its a lot.

Did you not say before that your wife has anger issues? I have a reason for asking this.


----------



## Harken Banks

chapparal said:


> Great parents divorce, does not mean the kids will be OK. Didn't you say you coached s ski team. Haven't you coached divorced kids? I coached over twenty Little League, basketball, tee ball teams. I can tell you with 100% certainty the boys from divorced families broke my heart. Its not a little difference, its a lot.
> 
> Did you not say before that your wife has anger issues? I have a reason for asking this.


I have coached a similar number of teams. I know what you are describing. The thought of our girls going through that is . . . so heartwrenching as to be unthinkable.

I don't want divorce. Like so many other things that have happened, it seems completely unnecessary. Both of us have to just say stop.

I'll admit that there have been times, and not a few, when I thought divorce might be necessary to begin healing. I believe those are all in the past. Sometimes when pain comes, it comes hard and crowds out perspective. But I do not want divorce. I want our family. For each of us.


----------



## Harken Banks

This thread will close after this post. When I first posted in CWI, infidelity had me blindsided and knocked for a loop. I thought I was a good guy. A loving and involved dad. Professionally successful with my own firm throwing off a very comfortable living. A jock and a scholar. Overly attentive husband. And not without skills in the kitchen. Or bed. Rage and contempt are insatiable.

This story is about infidelity only as a sideshoot. The stem is an inexplicable, indescribable rage, resentment, and contempt. Infidelity was a manifestation. A symptom. One of the uncountably many and painful. Not the root problem. I cannot understand myself and so I am sure I cannot explain to you or anyone else the rage. It's frightful and indescribable.


----------



## dogman

Harken, are you ok man? This sounds ominous.


----------



## Shoshan1290

Hey, Harken. Just hopping in because I saw your post and you have me concerned. What's going on? If you need to talk, shoot me a message ok? I'll be here.


----------



## Harken Banks

I am OK. AMU is psychotically angry. And that is sad for her and our family. Anyone who has not picked that up has completely missed the boat.


----------



## old timer

I have one like that...but not for long now. 
.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shoshan1290

Yea, she's definitely not stable, that's for certain. I'm glad you're ok though. It can't be easy to deal with her. I'm sorry.


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> I am OK. AMU is psychotically angry. And that is sad for her and our family. Anyone who has not picked that up has completely missed the boat.


I totally agree with you HB.

I think you realize you are in a no win situation.

Where will you go next?


----------



## Harken Banks

Hard to say. Bide some time, as she will too. We both care incredibly for the girls.


----------



## dogman

Harken Banks said:


> I am OK. AMU is psychotically angry. And that is sad for her and our family. Anyone who has not picked that up has completely missed the boat.



Hmm, well, it sounds like your on the right path then.
Good luck


----------



## happyman64

R U celebrating Mothers Day as a family?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Harken, my best wishes to you all. Yours was a tough thread for you and us. Some entitlement issues you had to deal with.

Your TAM support system is still here.:smthumbup:


----------



## Harken Banks

I gave that a descent shot. Did the usual. Woke up a few hours before everyone else. Did some work. Cleaned up a bit. Made some pancakes and bacon (pretty standard). Gifts. Less over the top than the mother's day, birthdays, and christmas and the like over the past year, but a lot of thought and some nice gifts. Reservations for brunch at the club (which in itself is an over the top affair). None of you will understand the nonstop screaming and relentless rage. I can't, and I have been living it for 13 years. The kids can't, but they do not know anything else. There is no respite.


----------



## Harken Banks

I had a really nice time with the girls before AMU got out of bed and then a nice couple of hours giving batting practice to our oldest. Got some smoothies on the way home and now we are lounging a bit with the Harry Potter marathon. Life is good.


----------



## Harken Banks

HM, interesting question as I think about it. Starting in January, maybe earlier, AMU wanted separation, separate vacations, and separate holidays. I had to pretty much insist that she show up for Easter (and you can't really insist in matters like this, but it was about the girls so I made my best case for them) as a family for the sake of the girls, who do not understand this and just want their mom and dad and family, especially for holidays and vacations. I felt the same in a lot of ways about mother's day, but hey, she's the mother. It's her day.


----------



## MattMatt

Harken Banks said:


> HM, interesting question as I think about it. Starting in January, maybe earlier, AMU wanted separation, separate vacations, and separate holidays. I had to pretty much insist that she show up for Easter (and you can't really insist in matters like this, but it was about the girls so I made my best case for them) as a family for the sake of the girls, who do not understand this and just want their mom and dad and family, especially for holidays and vacations. I felt the same in a lot of ways about mother's day, but hey, she's the mother. It's her day.


Harken, is it possible that she really would rather like *every* day to be *her* day?:scratchhead:


----------



## Harken Banks

MattMatt said:


> Harken, my best wishes to you all. Yours was a tough thread for you and us. Some entitlement issues you had to deal with.
> 
> Your TAM support system is still here.:smthumbup:


Thanks, Matt. It's an interesting thing. I think I got what I could and what I could use in the way of support from CWI last summer. I hugely value the input and advice; friendship, fellowship, and camaraderie too. Most especially the sincere expressions of concern. This place was my reality check for a while. One of several I sought. All of that has been helpful. I am comfortable that my compass points North. As it has all along. I had just gotten spun around so I didn't know to trust it for a while.


----------



## Summer4744

Harken. What exactly is AMU angry about? Is she fighting for reconciliation?

Is it really directed towards you or she is just angry in general and she is taking it out on you?


----------



## Chaparral

Last fall I was thinking about someone I have known for a long time that inherited an anger problem. For som reason I decided to google anger and adrenalin together. It was very enlightening. Disapointing too.


----------



## SomedayDig

Sad to read this stuff, man.

I'm sad because I see both of ya's on here with your version of the story...you saying she's brutally angry and her saying you're doing nothing but drinking heavily. We ain't the jury, brother. I've heard in your voice how you really feel about AMU. I know sh-t has escalated, de-escalated and escalated again and again.

Taking a time out from each other is what you guys need. Playing a blame game isn't. I told ya's last year, and it's not a slight, but ya's have such huge ego's that you're your own worst enemies.

Again, this is just sad and painful to read. I'm sorry for you, AMU and your children.


----------



## BrockLanders

It's interesting in that her indiscretions seem to only be a footnote in the story of your marriage now. They seem to have been only a catalyst that exposed the daily theatrics in your everyday lives that were hiding in plain sight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Harken Banks

Guys, I cannot explain to you the insanity of her rage. The examples I might give would seem ridiculously outlandish. And they are. You would not believe it, so I will not even try. Thanks for checking in.


----------



## Harken Banks

Brock, that is exactly right. Only they weren't hiding. They were hitting me over the head day in and day out without relent for years. Excruciating stuff. 

Hiding though in the sense that AMU is about appearances. Saccharine sweet when the phone or doorbell rings (or posting), but a terror behind closed doors or when she is not mindful that someone else might see.


----------



## Harken Banks

I remembered my TAM anniversary date, but did not check in. It was my birthday and the day Initial Foray was launched. I thought I might have more emotion about it, but I didn't. I did notice today that I was no longer a "Forum Supporter." I have some mixed feelings about CWI. None very heavy on the negative, but some occasional reflection. There is a lot of dwelling in the pain. And the pain is substantial; the trauma life altering. It gets to me in a sentimental way sometimes. And I am still at a crossroad. My family is. Anyway, I re-upped as a supporter. I like what we do here. The insight and support were helpful to me at a time when I needed a lot of both. Thanks


----------



## Chaparral

Are either of you going to counseling? Anger mgt?


----------



## Harken Banks

I am not. At the moment, anyway. I felt that I had kind of plateaued in IC. Since then I have read some of what you suggested. NMMNG most recently, as it was an easy read. MC ended in January with my wife's decision to separate in order to work on the marriage, an idea that didn't make sense to me. Since then we went through some weird sort of separation arrangement and seem today to still be in no man's land. Not really married, not really not married. Not ideal for either of us, but manageable as we focus on the girls and their priorities. The tension is still there and our interactions are often really, really impacted and painful so we tend to avoid and minimize them. I do not know if AMU is still seeing her IC. She does go to weekly Al-Anon meetings, which she seems to enjoy. Thanks for checking in.


----------



## Chaparral

AA sounds good, I think they have a support system for families to.


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, you may have mentioned this, does either of her parents have anger issues? Anger is addicting and passed along in families.


----------



## Harken Banks

Chaparral said:


> BTW, you may have mentioned this, does either of her parents have anger issues?


Not that I am aware of. I never met her mom. I think it's somewhere in these threads. As I understand, she died from alcohol related complications when AMU was a senior in high school and spent many years preceding that in and out of treatment programs and hospitals. I think AMU has referred to some of that already in here and I don't want to muck around in it. Also, I am grateful for the insight and assistance I received here. I may from time to time post an update for all of you who have taken an interest and generously contributed your time and advice. And for others who may experience something having some parallels. That is the least I can do and I am happy to do it. I may chime in here in there on threads from time to time as well. But I have no more appetite for the public dissection of my marriage.


----------



## happyman64

Keep chiming in.

I think of you every time I head up to the NorthEast (Boston/RhodeIsland) area.

I hope you and your wife have found some peace....

Even if it is temporary peace while living in limbo.

HM


----------



## happyman64

So HB I saw you were online and read a recent post.

I am wondering how you are doing? How the kids are?

And how you and wife are handling the holidays?

HM


----------



## illwill

Get yourself out of limbo. Its the worst place to be. You are not together or apart. And the years will fly by.

Either make your marriage stronger or end it. You are doing your kids no favors by staying. They can pick up on the tension and sadness. It comes right through my computer screen.

Get a plan and start giving yourself deadlines.


----------



## Harken Banks

happyman64 said:


> So HB I saw you were online and read a recent post.
> 
> I am wondering how you are doing? How the kids are?


Doing OK. The usual chaos. The kids are good. Cat and dog too. Everyone is excited about Christmas. As always, lots of activities. Ski teams, Brownies, Book Club, Band, Chorus, Seminar, and so on. 



happyman64 said:


> And how you and wife are handling the holidays?


I think we are both looking forward to the time together as a family with a bit of break from the usual chaos. But what do I know? Nothing has really changed between us. Still not really married and not really not married. But we are together under one roof more often than not, and I take that as something. No intimacy or affection. There hasn't been since the decision to separate and the separate vacation stuff that started last winter. But the occasional gesture. Flowers, shared thoughts about the girls, and, hey, we're still married and buying green bananas together.


----------



## Harken Banks

illwill said:


> Get yourself out of limbo. Its the worst place to be. You are not together or apart. And the years will fly by.
> 
> Either make your marriage stronger or end it. You are doing your kids no favors by staying. They can pick up on the tension and sadness. It comes right through my computer screen.
> 
> Get a plan and start giving yourself deadlines.


I can't say you are wrong about any of this or that it isn't good advice. Make the marriage stronger or end it is good advice. There is only one of those things I can do unilaterally and that is not what I want right now.


----------



## Harken Banks

This was an exit affair and I have been desperately, pathetically trying to cling to something that and someone who is not there. I would not have forgiven myself for not trying.


----------



## LongWalk

Harken, you're a good writer and your sense of humor has never died. I hope that when you're skiing you find peace. Do you sometimes ski almost recklessly fast to get a rush?

I am 55. Started on wooden skiis with screwed on metal edges. The boots were leather and had laces. Skiing was completely out of character for our dysfunctional family. My mother forced my father to do it because she had skiied once in her life in Switzerland and a Swiss farmer volunteered to take her and couple of girlfriends up a mountain. They skiied down. Took a whole day.

It is some much easier with the carving skiis.

What kind of races do your daughters like? Guess they are too young to care about how many poles there are.

Although your marriage is in limbo, don't give up yet. I imagine you still have a thermos of hot chocolate at the mountains. Good for washing down green bananas.


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> This was an exit affair and I have been desperately, pathetically trying to cling to something that and someone who is not there. I would not have forgiven myself for not trying.


Has your wife's job made it harder or easier to get along?

Do you think you guys are still cohabit acting because your girls are so young?

No matter what HB enjoy Christmas and the family time together.

HM


----------



## manticore

Harken Banks said:


> This was an exit affair and I have been desperately, pathetically trying to cling to something that and someone who is not there. I would not have forgiven myself for not trying.


Harken, exit affairs not necessary means thet the WW leave the house and try divorce in the moment they are found out, see for cases like "disanchanted" and "cantthinkstraight" in both cases the wives showed guilt (not remorse) and tried to fix the situation offering more sex and superficial changes, but when they realized thier BSs were expecting heavy lifting from them, WWs prefered to leave the marriage.

If you realize your situation now, please don't be passive, in both cases mentioned above in the beggining of the thread they as many BSs were in the idealizing phase (of the whole fall out process) about their WW.

*IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with the WS was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” *

but after a while and reviewing the whole marriage objectively without feelings involved they realized that they were in a bad marriage with WWs that were full of resentment and had checked out of the marriage long ago.


----------



## Summer4744

HB. What is your wife going through?

Is she trying to reconsile? If you left what would she feel? Indifference?


----------



## Harken Banks

I do not know for sure what my wife is going through, other than the outward motions of being suburban mom. I have stated that I want us to come back together and heal our family. I have asked her probably too many times what she wants. If she responds at all, it is to say she does not want to say. She did last night say that she wanted a loving relationship but declined to say whether that might be with me or someone else. Seems to me like a simple enough thing to ask. Sad as all of that may sound, I have had a lot of time to acclimate to it. Merry Christmas. We are having a nice day here. The girls are happy.


----------



## Harken Banks

happyman64 said:


> Has your wife's job made it harder or easier to get along?
> 
> Do you think you guys are still cohabit acting because your girls are so young?
> 
> No matter what HB enjoy Christmas and the family time together.
> 
> HM


Thanks, HM. Yes, for the girls and because they are young. When I think about it and where I understood we were 2 years ago, I am surprised we have kept it going as we have. When I think of it in relation to 2 years ago, it's not a bad consolation prize. And I had been harboring the hope that through being family we would become familiar again. But it seems not.


----------



## Harken Banks

Anyone ever grill a turkey? Friggin 12 thousand dollar oven and tried to fire it up for the first time last night to make pies and discovered that the big oven, there are 2, doesn't heat. The little oven heats, but won't accommodate a turkey on a rack in a pan. So I am improvising big time today. Fun so far. We'll see how it goes.


----------



## warlock07

Are you both seeing other people ?


----------



## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> Are you both seeing other people ?


Neither of us is or has, to my knowledge. But what do I know?


----------



## joe kidd

Harken Banks said:


> Anyone ever grill a turkey? Friggin 12 thousand dollar oven and tried to fire it up for the first time last night to make pies and discovered that the big oven, there are 2, doesn't heat. The little oven heats, but won't accommodate a turkey on a rack in a pan. So I am improvising big time today. Fun so far. We'll see how it goes.


I have cooked one on a vertical smoker. If your grill is big enough you can do it. Indirect heat of course.


----------



## Harken Banks

Thanks, Joe and JP. The moment of truth is nigh. It's a turkey; how bad can it go? Plus the kids are already scooping spoons of the stuffing and mashed potatoes (they don't know that I improvised there also with a mixed in sauté of bacon, garlic, and portabella in addition to the traditional. If they knew they'd never touch it. So far it's a hit. Plus we have pies. But I am curious about the turkey. I will let all of you know. But first I am going for a ski. Night skiing. Skiing at night. With my dog. And a headlamp. Being Christmas, the 15-year old daughter of the dean had other commitments.


----------



## LongWalk

Deep frying turkey


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Harken:
Something important has dropped out of this post.....you could never determine whether or not your wife got physical with the other man. Correct? And no polygraph ever took place? And before her EA you never had any suspicions whatsoever of her cheating....Correct?


----------



## Harken Banks

nuclearnightmare said:


> Harken:
> Something important has dropped out of this post.....you could never determine whether or not your wife got physical with the other man. Correct? And no polygraph ever took place? And before her EA you never had any suspicions whatsoever of her cheating....Correct?


I don't think there was any sexual contact.

No polygraph. I never entertained the thought. I cannot imagine subjecting my wife to a polygraph for any reason. Others feel differently, and that is fine.

I never suspected infidelity. I could never have imagined it. Probably part of why this knocked me for a loop. And no prior affairs I am aware of.


----------



## BrockLanders

How did the turkey come out on the grill? I'd think to do it like you'd do a beer can chicken, stand up with a tallboy beer filled with water in the cavity so it cooks on the inside at the same time as the outside.


----------



## Harken Banks

BrockLanders said:


> How did the turkey come out on the grill? I'd think to do it like you'd do a beer can chicken, stand up with a tallboy beer filled with water in the cavity so it cooks on the inside at the same time as the outside.


Came out OK. Pretty good, I think. It was a battle with temperatures in the low single digits and the turkey in pan and rack being a bit bigger than would allow the grill to fully close. I think it was cooked about right, but the process of grilling/smoking vs oven plus a young bird leaves the meat a little pink in places, which made my wife nervous, so I finished by stuffing it without the rack but in some foil and on a cookie sheet into the smaller oven for another 30 minutes. I roasted winter vegetables (squash, carrots, sweet and russet potatoes, Brussels sprouts, some baby Portabellas) in the pan under the turkey. Those were nice. I just had to be super vigilant about administering the broth as the liquids were constantly evaporating and blowing off into the frozen landscape. Under better circumstances and with a bigger grill (I'm on it) I think this a nice way to do it. But then you don't get as much of the roasting turkey smell in the house. Next time I cook a turkey it will be roasted in the oven I think. But this year the trusty old Weber came through when I needed it.


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## joe kidd

Harken Banks said:


> Came out OK. Pretty good, I think. It was a battle with temperatures in the low single digits and the turkey in pan and rack being a bit bigger than would allow the grill to fully close. I think it was cooked about right, but the process of grilling/smoking vs oven plus a young bird leaves the meat a little pink in places, which made my wife nervous, so I finished by stuffing it without the rack but in some foil and on a cookie sheet into the smaller oven for another 30 minutes. I roasted winter vegetables (squash, carrots, sweet and russet potatoes, Brussels sprouts, some baby Portabellas) in the pan under the turkey. Those were nice. I just had to be super vigilant about administering the broth as the liquids were constantly evaporating and blowing off into the frozen landscape. Under better circumstances and with a bigger grill (I'm on it) I think this a nice way to do it. But then you don't get as much of the roasting turkey smell in the house. Next time I cook a turkey it will be roasted in the oven I think. But this year the trusty old Weber came through when I needed it.


Glad it turned out. If you ever get the urge, a smoked turkey is quite good. Hickory is my wood of choice. Oh and I like to inject the bird with creole butter.


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## nuclearnightmare

Harken Banks said:


> I don't think there was any sexual contact.
> 
> No polygraph. I never entertained the thought. I cannot imagine subjecting my wife to a polygraph for any reason. Others feel differently, and that is fine.
> 
> I never suspected infidelity. I could never have imagined it. Probably part of why this knocked me for a loop. And no prior affairs I am aware of.


You said she has a number of 'close' male friends - to me that means she has problems with boundaries. Perhaps you've moved beyond any infidelity issues though -- I.e. you're not sure you want the marriage anymore?

Your description of your wife reminds me a lot of my former DIL. 
And her behavior in following you onto this website and even jumping into your thread reminds of FDIL as well.
So let's call your wife A M U. do people ever say "A M U always has to win" ??


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## Doingmybest

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MovingAhead

HB,

I just wanted to say Merry Christmas brother. I hope you are doing well, or at least remember you have those beautiful little ones of yours around.


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## LongWalk

Post some ski pics. No faces, just action.

Your wife was on the beach with OM under blankets, wasn't she? Very close to physical affair, but maybe I am remembering some other thread. 

For your family's sake hope you can successfully reconcile. 

When you have gotten the kids to bed one night, perhaps you could take turns telling each other good things about each other. No sarcasm allowed.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## barbados

LongWalk said:


> Post some ski pics. No faces, just action.
> 
> *Your wife was on the beach with OM under blankets, wasn't she? Very close to physical affair, but maybe I am remembering some other thread. *
> 
> For your family's sake hope you can successfully reconcile.
> 
> When you have gotten the kids to bed one night, perhaps you could take turns telling each other good things about each other. No sarcasm allowed.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


YUP! But HB still wants to believe she didn't have sex.


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## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> Post some ski pics. No faces, just action.
> 
> Your wife was on the beach with OM under blankets, wasn't she? Very close to physical affair, but maybe I am remembering some other thread.
> 
> For your family's sake hope you can successfully reconcile.
> 
> When you have gotten the kids to bed one night, perhaps you could take turns telling each other good things about each other. No sarcasm allowed.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


This was the subject of some confusion in the thread and for me as well. There were no blankets. They sat in separate beach chairs and before going out the guy went to his room for towels to dry the chairs. 

Thanks for the thoughts. Reconciliation is still my hope.


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## EI

barbados said:


> YUP! But HB still wants to believe she didn't have sex.


C'mon, barbados, you're way better than that. That statement is inflammatory and you have NO proof of its accuracy.

I am a former WS. I am guilty of having a long-term EA/PA, with a guy I dated briefly, back when I was still in high school, some 30+ years ago. I found him on Facebook. What I'm saying is that my EA/PA pretty much covers all of the pathetic cliches that seem to define modern day infidelities. I'm trying to paint a very clear picture of just how far this 49 y/o, 29 years married, mother of 5, was capable of sinking, until just over 1 1/2 years ago.

With that being said, during the course of my adult life and my marriage (which was troubled for many, many years prior to my A,) I have been alone, in the presence of men, other than my husband, who I have found to be intelligent, witty, interesting and attractive. They may have even been attracted to me. I don't know, I didn't ask. Believe it or not, I didn't have sex with any of them, with the exception of my former AP. Even people who, at a certain point in their life, chose to be unfaithful, don't necessarily have sex with every person they may be attracted to every time the opportunity presents itself. I know this for a fact.

Stirring the "emotional pot" of someone, who is in pain, with assumptions, without proof, is not helping anyone, certainly not HB. 

Again, I've read many of your posts, barbados, you're usually much more responsible with your comments. Bad day???


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## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> This was the subject of some confusion in the thread and for me as well. There were no blankets. They sat in separate beach chairs and before going out the guy went to his room for towels to dry the chairs.
> 
> Thanks for the thoughts. Reconciliation is still my hope.


I will send a prayer your way HB.

That you get stronger than you are already.

That your children stay healthy and happy.

That you wife's anger diminishes and you both communicate openly, lovingly and respectfully.....

HM


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## LongWalk

EI, re-read the first post:



> But *another contact* I did not recognize. With this one *countless pages of flirty banter*, *meaning of life, and relationship talk. All in the period from March 1, the day she returned from her first trip, to March 12, the day there was an incident where she’d left the computer on the bed as I came up to go to sleep and I noticed this guy’s picture,* but didn’t think a lot of it. She came out of the bathroom quickly and looking a little stressed or irritated. But nothing more.
> 
> The correspondence starts at 1:30 am the last night of the trip with some brief first Facebook contact and it’s evident now there was contact in another forum happening at the same time. Then picks up the next day when she is back home and goes all day starting with allusions to the previous night of fun and games at a casino night social event and my wife talking about the evening and admitting that she hasn’t had so much fun as an adult in a long time, loves the kids, but rarely gets out or has fun with me. *From there it goes to the questionable subject matter of their conversations that night, including his love life (and some inappropriate details) as a newly divorced 50 year old guy living again as a bachelor in search of love. This stuff continues around the clock until she leaves for her next trip 4 days later. She is following his life closely enough to know and comment on the bars and golf courses he is at before he tells her. *Things between us remain tense. *The first night away*, she asks if where he, he asks “why?” and she says because she wanted to call and didn’t know if that would be OK. He says “Call.”. T*hat is the start of daily, hours long conversations, IMs, and texts in addition to Facebook, subject matter includes the problems in our marriage, his love life and divorce, relationship coaching, cross fit, the Red Sox, what’s for lunch and so on*, some of it happening while I am sleeping next to her. It’s too much for me to process and I begin shutting down the computer, no effort to hide my tracks. The last screen, and the zinger, is his photo, which *she has downloaded*.


She may not even have been in love with these OM. She was certainly looking for romance.

Harken,

You are presumably in good shape. You ski well. You are the ski coach, i.e., some of the moms are attracted to you as the leader. You can up your sex ranking by doing what? Getting a six pack?

Your wive gave you 4 children and her liminal mind said next DNA investment must be with other genes. Her ethical mind wasn't strong enough to resist. Could you have been more attentive? Perhaps.

All you can do now is what you have done. You don't lose control of your emotions. You are setting boundaries. The turkey was edible. 

Threadjack: Has anyone ever taken come taken fresh road kill, as in a deer home? Dressed it and served the kids venison stew before the wife got home? Would it up the sex ranking?


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## warlock07

The hard part of this thread was finding out which one is telling the truth. HB has a version of what happened. AMU has a totally different version.

Maybe this is a good example on why some mutual friends of the betrayed spouse still choose to support the WS...


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## bfree

I don't believe either of them. They're lawyers.


Just kidding.


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## warlock07

I own the rights to that joke bfree. I am going to hire one of them to sue you.


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## Harken Banks

Thanks for the thoughts and support, all. There are a couple of things I feel I should clarify from the last several posts. One, I do not think there was sexual contact and AMU is adamant there was not. Two, I do lose control of my emotions sometimes interacting with my wife. I could do a lot better there. 

Also, here you are hearing my voice. Me trying to express, process, and work through what I am experiencing. More recently my posts have been mostly the occasional update in appreciation of those who have taken the time to offer advice and support. I really do appreciate each of your perspectives. I think there is a natural tendency for the forum to want to side with the OP, especially where the OP is trying to deal with their spouse's infidelity. 

If you were reading her thread and hearing in her voice why she is angry, you might come away thinking 'boy, that HB guy is a jerk.' That's just the nature of it. And to be sure these past two years I have not been at my best.

The recent comments here have not been mean (some of them direct, but not mean) and I appreciate that. If you think I have my head in the sand or need pointing in a certain direction or that there is something I am wrong about or just missing, that is good and I want to hear it. (I say that now, try it and let's see what happens.)

All of this is to acknowledge a bit and respond to what Warlock and some others have written. For all that has happened (it has not been a good stretch for either of us), she is a wonderful mom and a good person. Once we were good together as a couple, and I want to return to that.


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## EI

bfree said:


> I don't believe either of them. They're lawyers.
> 
> 
> Just kidding.





warlock07 said:


> I own the rights to that joke bfree. I am going to hire one of them to sue you.



Yeah, Warlock, and then bfree will hire the other one to represent him. Then what? Yep, that's what I thought....... Deadlock!   

All kidding aside, HB and AMU, I so wish for the two of you, along with your 4 precious daughters, to have a happy ending. You all have so much going for you. The possibilities truly are endless. People share their stories on TAM and I, (being the selfish, narcissistic, entitled, former WS, that I am ) often, find myself thinking that if they'd had to walk a mile in our shoes (B1's and mine) they'd know what hardship, brokenness and a seemingly hopeless marriage truly looked like. Again, I do understand how one-sided my rationale is with this statement. But, if I've come to be known for anything on TAM, it's being ridiculously honest about my thoughts, however skewed they may be. 

If, after all we've been through, B1 and I can truly reconcile our marriage, and truly be stronger, healthier (in mind, body, and soul) and happier than we have EVER been, despite the fact that the storms in our life continue to rage, then I have to believe that anyone can. The only requirement is that BOTH spouses must be 100% committed to genuinely healing themselves, their spouse, and their relationship. I love you guys, I truly do. I pray for your family, by name, every single day.


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## LongWalk

Families that ski together at Christmas and don't melt down over the broken oven have a shot at happiness. AMU has been on TAM and you're still trying.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> The hard part of this thread was finding out which one is telling the truth. HB has a version of what happened. AMU has a totally different version.


She does not. My version is hers. If there is something more or different to the story, as between us, she and she alone knows it.

It is a long thread over a long period of time with me trying to piece together what was through much of it. But I do not believe I have written anything about her relationship with this guy that is not what she admitted to. And I did not tell all.

On this piece, there are not two stories unless mine is incomplete.


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## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> Families that ski together at Christmas and don't melt down over the broken oven have a shot at happiness. AMU has been on TAM and you're still trying.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


Thank you. It is a nice thought. I am at the mountain with the 3 oldest. She is home deciding whether or not she wants to come. And there were more than a few tense words over the turkey situation, which I wanted to maintain was fine. 

In the words of H.I., it ain't Ozzie and Harriet.


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## bfree

warlock07 said:


> I own the rights to that joke bfree. I am going to hire one of them to sue you.


And I'll hire the other.


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## bfree

You know HB, both of you are such good people (well good for lawyers anyway) that I really shake my head and have trouble understanding where the sticking points are. I know she strayed and I know you have had some issues. We don't need to rehash them all again. But both of you should be working toward the same goals. You both have so much to strive for...together. You could both be soooo happy together. You both have a bright future full of joy and warmth and wonderful family times. I have worked with couples that had a small fraction of your potential together and they fought for each other like their lives depended on it.

HB....AMU...isn't there some way for both of you to turn your frowns upside down?


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## Harken Banks

bfree said:


> HB....AMU...isn't there some way for both of you to turn your frowns upside down?


I think that is all there is to it. But what do I know?


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## LongWalk

Tell AMU to read GutPunch's thread

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Harken Banks

Valentines Day check in. We have had a nice day and will part tonight as AMU will see our oldest daughter to her school races tomorrow and I will shepherd the rest of the brood and livestock to the mountain tonight where we will be met tomorrow by AMU and oldest. So much drama, so many theatrics leading us to where we are. Never a dull moment. To state it a bit understatedly, we have looked over the precipice, and experienced some free fall even. Tonight we are happy and married.


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## Chaparral

This is good news.

I am courious though about one thing and that is your wifes angry outursts you described. Has she considered anger mgt? I have heard it works. I am curious because I am close to a family hat just about anyonr in it can pop a ork over almost nothing. I read that it was partly an adrenalin high for the angry person.


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## happyman64

Cheers to happy and married HB. Have a great weekend.


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## Harken Banks

Thank you, Voltaire, for reading. I had forgotten this chapter.


----------



## Voltaire2013

What the deuce? How did you know I was reading it?

I read the whole thread tonite, sorry to make you think of this chapter. Glad you are both doing better. 

Cheers,
V(13)


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## Harken Banks

There seems to be some confusion on timelines and issues. To try to clear things up a bit:

1. The constant anger, resentment, and rage directed in all directions within the house started more than a decade ago. I could never make sense of it. I was confused and traumatized to the point of almost not being able to function (going back a decade or more) and didn't share or have any outlet until I first met with a counselor about 4.5 years ago. But apparently others picked up some of it.

2. The bedroom becoming AMU's office and shopping and personal space where I was not welcome started about 8 years ago. AMU made it clear I was not welcome there anymore as that was exclusively her space and I started sleeping and dressing in other rooms of the house, on a pullout in the living room sometimes or a cot in the spare room before the renovations. This is going back 8 years. There is some discussion as to what happened after things had broken down badly and AMU asked me to come back to share a bed while we were in renovation. This was while we were out of the house and I had become accustomed to and more comfortable not being in her office/personal space and did not respond as she wanted. We did eventually return to sharing a bed while at the rental house and that was nice but she still did and does sit in bed with a computer or iPad in her lap and sometimes the lights on often until 2 or 3 in the morning, which is approaching the time I wake up. Sharing a bed ended with her insistence on separation and my return to exile. That is discussed ad nauseum here so I won't revisit.

3. Working from home I have done to some extent for the last 14 years. It's part of the flexibility I have. It's my firm. As I have written, I could work from Bora Bora if I wanted to. I am where I want to be. 

Over the earlier years I had increasing frustration over the difficulty of getting to the office due to commitments at home and then being called back when I was in the middle of things. It seemed other things were being heaped on that eclipsed what I thought was my work space. Around 4 years ago and with 4 young girls and full on commitments to parenting I started spending more time working from home as I could start when I woke sometimes at 3 or 4 in the morning for a few hours and then be with the girls for about 3 hours and driving where they needed to go and the resume what I was engaged in and get to whatever I needed to get to in parenting or coaching commitments throughout the day or in the afternoon or evening without adding the time and exercise of transferring to the office in town and commuting. That is part of the flexibility I have and it was and is more convenient often. For some time I was resentful as counterparties on deals and clients didn't have these restrictions and could as I used to work through the night if necessary from the office and wake up and go back. At one point about 5 years ago as I was driving one of my daughters to a morning soccer practice and as usual stressed and distressed at all the commitments and how I could possibly meet them, I had realized that at that moment I was doing exactly what I wanted to be doing. I was with my kids involved in their lives and development, engaging and interacting with them, and experiencing what they were experiencing. I remember the moment which came after years of stress about how am I possibly going to get all of this done and realized that for all of the stress what is important gets done and almost seems to take care of itself. Sometimes I go to the office or to meetings outside. Probably professionally I could quite profitably spend several weeks or more of the year travelling to NY and LA or SF and points in between but as AMU knows well it's not my favorite thing and the work seems to take care of itself without the travel. I have more than I need. And I have a pretty spectacular setting here and this is where I generally like to be. Or in the mountains with the girls. Maybe 90 or 95% of my clients and the people I deal with professionally are in financial centers or other points thousands of miles away. So, yeah, when I am dealing with all that I am looking at the ocean or at the mountains and counterparties and clients are several hundred feet up a high rise and an or more commute from home. Doesn't matter to them whether I am looking at the water from my house or in an office somewhere when we talk and interact. So the view that I putter around in my PJs is not the picture. It's a good gig. It's a really good gig. I am independent professionally. I have absorbed family commitments and enjoy those. It all fits in the jar. Yes, if I were not spending 3 or more hours every morning with the girls going through the morning and breakfast routine or headed to a school event or practice in the afternoons or covering because AMU is away I could slay a few more dragons, but the career has taken care of itself quite nicely. And I have an office with people who work for me and can do lots of the running around and fetching that really I do not miss. It's a really good gig. And made possible through more than 20 years of hard work and achievement and building a professional reputation that has become the driver in the perpetual motion machine.

4. AMU's really to me and to this day impossible to understand thing with this random sales guy at a work event/social getaway was now about 3 years ago. It went on for several months through lying to me and to others about what was going on. Even as I fell apart in confusion and depression. I had no idea what an affair or emotional affair was. But I learned when I googled some of the symptoms together. I found a few websites and I was like wow, that's me and that's her. And then I started to piece it together. And she just lied to my face, mocked and ridiculed me in my pain, and carried on. Until I found this place and then people like Bandit through PM exchanges said you are naive and this is much worse than you know. And they were right.

5. Finally I broke through. That was late July 2012. And I was physically and pyschologically unable to be in her presence. This was after we had been through months and thousands of dollars of MC. It's in Initial Foray. And when I was waking up and could not for the time stand to be with her, she started begging to go back to MC. I said no. The last time had been a disaster and the preceding 5 or 6 months had been a hell I cannot even imagine today. It was awful. Daily and nightly hell and torment. I remember she pleaded why won't you fight for the marriage!? I responded I fought tooth and nail for the marriage over the past 6 months while you lied flat out to my face and ridiculed me as I fell apart in front of you. I don't have it in me now. Just thinking back I cannot believe I stayed in the marriage. But I did. And at one point while we were in this state and I remember the exact moment we were with the girls at a summer festival with rides ands and games and art walks and all sorts of local seafood and other offerings and I looked at the girls. The oldest two had just returned from a summer camp. And I looked at AMU. Everyone was in pain. Everyone was suffering. I think at this point I had moved back to the house and the girls would alternate nights staying. And I looked and I thought it's up to me to fix this. And I held AMU's hand and gave an embrace and said we can get through this. And she cried there in the middle of the fairground. Then we had about a week or two where it looked like we were going build something better. Then her focus shifted to the promotion she was after that would mean more time away and more time at events like the ones she was at when this all started. I helped her with her resume and letter of interest and she used a conference room in my office for the interviews. And I consulted a divorce lawyer. Best in the state. It's all in Initial Foray.

I felt that she had turned away from me and away from the marriage and I thought she might be returning but now it seemed clear she was not and I had to face that. She was hurt and dejected and could not understand that this to me was set back emotionally and otherwise that told me I was wrong in my feeling over the previous 2 weeks. 

She knew it would mean more of the same travel as that was made express by the person who would be her new boss. Without saying it was connected to the promotion she was after she asked about a proposed travel schedule and how that would be. I said that it was painful even to think about. This was before it was offered and she accepted. I remember the conversation in our living room and where she sat and where I did and the words that were said. To this day she says it never happened. Some of that I shared in Initial Foray. I remember Happy Man chiming in.

6. Nevertheless as I could not stand the thought of my beautiful family falling apart and the lives of our beautiful daughters imploding, I absorbed it and we worked on staying together. Except in that fall, some really nasty exchanges occurred. As a condition to re-entering MC and with some input from this place I required that she get individual counseling. She did and would return from the sessions with the diagnoses she and her therapist had come up with for me. My anger at the affair and at her was a form of abuse. I was abusive. This to punctuate more than a decade of sever abuse I had suffered capped by an affair and then gaslighting and manipulation and lying. That seemed to be the upshot of her counseling. I said this is your therapy, not mine and you can do with it what you want but diagnosing me as angry and abusive (ironic, really, really ironic, if you know the dynamic around here) just doesn't seem like a good use of your time. 

7. Well, around this time she was convinced she was the victim of abuse. Her friends including Caper and his wife were convinced. They started looking at how to get out with her and looking at rental properties in the area. It was like the world which was already upside down had become more inverted. I continued to try to hold this together. I sat at the foot of her bed mornings and would try to make the case for us and our family and how much I wanted for us, sunsets on the porch in our golden years, graduations and weddings and our girls coming back with their families and our grandchildren and so on. Not once. Many times. She would not respond when I asked after some time what did she want. Instead she would say I want you to leave. Usually she would be sitting in bed with her laptop and looking at that and not me. At one point while I was plaintively and probably a bit emotionally and pathetically trying to make the case for us I asked what she was looking at. She said "I'm exploring my options." She was scrolling through rental properties while I sat at the end of the bed saying what about us? She began insisting on separation. I said I thought it was a bad idea and seemed to spell the end of the marriage given where we were and what had occurred. She continued with that theme. We re-entered MC with a new therapist. The one I called last week to re-engage. She seemed very good. But the sessions were very bad. AMU running each week through all of her complaints and all of the ways in which I was not meeting her needs. She was reading that book at this point. 

After months of this we reached a point where the insistence on separation was constant. I maintained that I thought that was a bad idea of continuation of the marriage was an objective, if that was what she wanted I could not say no, and that would be my cue to exit stage left. Over a period of more than a year I had been nearly destroyed by this. My health had suffered, my work had suffered, emotionally I had been a wreck. I was destroying myself on this altar and everyone around us could see that. So, realizing my disintegration was not in anyone's interest I said that if we are separating then I understand it is time for me to put my life back together and start looking forward instead of back. She insisted. MC did not independently come up with the idea. And she said ordinarily I would not recommend separation, but if the girls are in the middle of this and suffering then you should consider it. This was not to save the marriage but to spare the girls witnessing the war between their parents. That I understood. And I was thinking, hey, let's just stop the war. It always seems as easy as that to me, and yet it is not. I don't know why.

She insisted. Casually over lunch in a restaurant at the mountain she asked when April vacation was. I said I did not know. She said, well February break is coming up and you will be here with the girls and I want to take them for a vacation over April vacation and I am planning a schedule of custody. I had no response. I said I did not know and that was the end of the conversation at lunch but it continued. Shortly after she told me the week on week off schedule. The first week she would leave the rental house and return to my parents. And she did. She expected me to vacate the following week and I said I would not but would sleep on the couch in the living room, which I did. For the next several weeks. And understanding that things were pretty much over I started to talk to other people. Some were moving faster than I was prepared for and I said maybe just coffee but I am not sure I am ready for that. One in particular expressed some urgency and insisted on meeting to tell me something important. She worked nearby and I said OK, I'll meet you for coffee since it seems urgent. I was not interested in any way romantically or sexually but she had taken a lot of time to write to me about stuff and I said OK. At this point I was wearing my ring and she said it was unfair of me to not be available and toying with her and others. I didn't think I was doing that but listened. She also mentioned that she wanted to pull me across the table, take me home and bake me cookies, and so on. She is a good person but the experience was odd. And I had no intention of visiting her house or any other place. I came because she expressed urgency. We know many people in common. AMU, who I knew was monitoring my communications, has saved all of it and can share some if she cares.

I also talked to a few other women, some of whom I already knew and considered friends. In this period I continued to express to AMU that I wanted us and could not understand why we were separated or how that was a good thing but that it was something I could only accept. And if after all of that had gone on she wanted separation over my very clearly and consistently expressed desire to stay together and put our marriage and family back together, I was going to resume my life. It seemed to me like the only sensible thing I could do at that point. So we stopped MC. AMU said I am not going to MC if you are talking to other women and I felt that since we are separated and it seems like everything in the dynamic to suit you but not me. In the long aftermath I need you to come closer, I needed us to be closer, and you only moved further away, knowing that that was breaking me. I am going to start the process of meeting people again. Re-entering the world. She said then I will cancel the appointment with Deb. I shrugged.

We stayed married and made occasional passing attempts at relationship, but without heart or follow through. Our girls grew and developed and delighted, but suffered noticeably. I felt the best for them was us together but that was an option that had been taken away from me. Things continued bristly. There are things AMU and I have written about here and in Initial Foray. The arguments reached a point where she was screaming divorce (and things much worse) and I said OK, fine, send me again the list of divorce mediators you got from your therapist. She did. I said this one is fine. She set up the appointment. We had pre-appointment interviews by phone. We went. It was like MC all over again. I thought we were there to sort out an arrangement and it seemed AMU wanted to run through all of the ways in which I was a jerk and had disappointed her. It was hell, where I thought it would be difficult but orderly. I made clear my view contrary to the advice I had received that first day I saw the divorce lawyer that she was my wife and we had 4 girls to raise and what's mine was hers in asset division and that it seemed to me we would split everything straight down the middle and work on the best arrangements for the girls. Didn't go that way. We got to a point where I could feel that I was upset enough that I could not productively participate and no real progress was being made so I apologized and excused myself. First day at divorce mediation, we didn't get it all worked out, understandable. I had a previously scheduled lunch with friends.

I was on Match. A woman said she was going to be at a local gathering spot in our town around 4 and asked if I had time for coffee. I was scheduled to pick up our oldest from an after school event and this place was on the way. I said I don't have much time as I have to pick up my daughter and this is kind smack dab in the middle of my back yard but sure. AMU meanwhile had prepared a custody schedule that she left for me on my laptop and that I thought was very fair. She was also monitoring my communication, which I didn't really care about. I went, while I was there AMU called to say she would get oldest I didn't have to worry, I said OK and said hey, I can stay a bit and we each ordered a beer. AMU arrives, this women exits for the ladies room. We talk a bit. AMU leaves. Lady comes back. On AMU's schedule this is her night with the girls. I stay with the lady at the restaurant and have a nice time. We move to another local restaurant about 1000 feet away and have some appetizers. There was some interaction in the car, hers, on the way. It's a quiet town on a Thursday and the place closes at 10 so we leave in her car so she can take me to mine and there is more interaction. I am not a guy to make a first move. Stay out late. She offers we could go to her house and I say that is not something I am going to do tonight. I come home. Fall asleep. Not with AMU, of course.

Next night I go to the office and then visit the gym. While there I get a note from another woman saying she is in town and how about a drink. This is someone who was two years ahead of me in high school and then as on this night quite intriquing to me. I said yeah. We met. Shared a drink and dinner
This was also AMU's night on the schedule. Eventually we leave the restaurant on foot and I say I'll walk her to her car (this is the middle of downtown) and do and as we walk we pass some live music and it sounds good so we go in. And listen to the band, which was good, and fool around in a dark corner of the venue and a bit on the dance floor. It's my second day of divorce and so far it has been a lot of fun. But it's late. We leave and I have one of those "you could have had a V-8" moments realizing that I left my car in my parking garage and left my pass in the car. It's after midnight and the gates come down at 10 so you are SOL if you do not have your key card to open the gates. She gives me a ride home. I ask her to stop at the top of the driveway so the lights don't come down to the house and we don't manufacture any drama. She does. I walk down to the house and try one front door. Locked. I laugh and walk to the other front door. Locked. Now I am chuckling. I walk around to the back and try one back door. Locked. I walk up the grade to the deck and try the back door. Locked. Now I am on the phone with her. She has left and is miles away on her way home. I am laughing and asking if I could ask another favor. One last try on the side door. Locked. She returns and now it's around 1 and offers for me to come to her house and I say if you could just take me to my parents' house, it's not far. And that is where I slept. After talking to my mom who was awakened by the dogs alerting my arrival.

Next night I am sleeping at home and usually keep my phone next to me so I know what time it is when I wake. I wake and reach for it and it is not there. It's probably around 1:30. I get up to look for it and notice some light and stirring in daughter #3's room. AMU has my phone and is texting these women about what ****s they are. I say hey can I have my phone. She forces the door shut and puts her weight against it. I'm like this is ridiculous, give me my phone. I get arm in and that gets crushed. I get a foot in and then in and try to reach for the phone which is then thrown. I get the phone, see the correspondence and go back to bed. But then there is yelling. Between us. She is like how could you do this? I am like we are getting divorced, what did you think would happen. She has tears, which is rare. I usually see only rage and anger. Turns out her thinking informed by this place to some degree was that to save your marriage you have to willing to lose it. I was like, why do we have to go through this exercise? You insist on and implement separation, I take it you want separation. You start divorce mediation, I take it you want divorce. You tell me you have paid several thousand dollars as retainer for your divorce lawyer, I take it that is part of your war chest. I lack guile. I took her at her word and deed. 

So I say, if you want to be together, let's be together. That is what I have been asking for for years. So here we are. I hope we stay together.

But she is still resuscitating the divorce talk and the I hate yous and your an a**hole and every one of my friends and every one in my family says your an a**hole. For a long time that would really upset me, but now I take it for what it is. A way she tries to hurt me. It is manipulative and intended to embarrass and shame me and make me feel bad about myself. Which I can do on my own. I believe a few of her friends think I am a jerk or at least tell her that on GNOs. But we are cordial when we meet and talk and I don't worry about it. They wave in their cars if passing and we stop to chat at the grocery store or school event or game. And her dad and I have a good relationship although I think he has been fed a lot of her story and one of those separate vacations she took with our girls was with him (this was in the separation days) and both she and he said very pointedly you are not welcome. That was hurtful. They both knew it. But what can you do? And we recently hosted him and some of his friends who were on a bike tour and had a great time for the days they were here and we as we always do spent a lot of time talking about things of interest unrelated to relationships and have spoken since, quite warmly. I like him. I think he exercised poor judgment in the you are not welcome as I have a vacation with your wife and children thing. It was connected with his 70th birthday and I said happy birthday, I wish I could be there, but I understand. So what can you do?

Some suggest that everytime we have an argument I am off on dates. My wife has consistently and for more than a year had only the message in times of calm as well as heat that she wants separation and divorce. She's more vocal in a fit of rage, but there is no break from the message. When she institutionalized those things over my express and consistent statements in times of calm and rage that I did not want separation or divorce and that I felt strongly the best thing for our children would be for us to get along and repair our marriage. But then we have separation or divorce proceedings. In the past I thought, oh well, I tried my best. This has been going on for years and it's killing me and both of us are missing some good years. Big parts of our lives. I have asked for a single clear statement of commitment to counter all of the else. But there is no relent, no ***** in the armor. You can be sure that the next time I understand we are separating or divorcing I will be looking ahead and looking to putting my life back together.

Am I all right? No. Is AMU? No. Are some here addicted to uninformed judgment as it allows them to elevate themselves? I think so. Do they project from their own bad experience or marriages? Yep. Does it make them feel better and righteous as an aggrieved that they take swipes at their spouse or someone else with me or someone else as proxy even as the comparisons or conclusions are inapt? I think so. Are there some here with habitual certitude that is missing more than approaching the mark? I think so again. Are some of them hurting? I think so. Are they helping? Quite often not.

There are some really considered and patient and helpful people here. And everyone who contributes is in one form or another giving. 

Also, some wrote that I deleted So was to "hide evidence." I gave everyone more than 72 hours notice I was considering taking it down and the reasons why. I was concerned it was making things worse between me and my wife. And they were not good to start. But I wanted them to get better. And I was aware that I had written things that were hard for her. Then Caper arrived and pretty much validated the things that had been said but also that introduced a concern about the friendships between our children and our friendships with him and his wife. At that point a decision that probably should have been easier was made for me. Our friendships and families are more important. And I still gave another 48 hours notice for anyone who wanted to preserve the transcript. And that was why the notice. More so out respect and gratitude.

Some got a little jabby about it and said what if I copy and paste this thread somewhere else, what then? Obviously I understood that 72 hours notice that I was thinking of taking it down allowed anyone to do with it as they saw fit. And also asked that they respect our friends, our children and their friends, and first, AMU. It was not about me and it is baffling to me anyone could read and see it that way. As it turns out, AMU was subscribed and read everything anyway and that has caused not small rift between our families and she feels she has lost good friends. I hope time and good will and character will repair that. I believe it will. Caper and his wife care very much about us and our children.

Peace. Goodnight. It's 3:13 am Sunday morning and I couldn't sleep but I have 2 games to coach tomorrow and need to find some rest. Coaching is harder than playing.

It will be a couple days before I can post this, but I will. All stream of conscience on sleep deprivation.

Update Sunday afternoon: My girls won 2-0 and 4-2 against strong teams well coached. It was a good day on the pitch. They played spectacularly. It was good therapy. Cleared my head. I was unthinking, unburdened, and happy. As several nights a week and several hours of every weekend in season I spent hours on the pitch or side just really in the moment with a bunch of terrific young women. The head coach of the 4-2 team was someone I played with 25 years ago and coaching the team from where I grew up. We've crossed paths a few times. He was a class year ahead of me in a really strong class with only me and another underclassmen on varsity, me as the only starter. I played a couple class years ahead. Good player, him. And a good guy. We gibed each other, ribbed, and sported on the sideline. It was fun. And good to see an old friend. Already into prepping for clinicing for skiing and the season, which will start as soccer ends, beginning of November. So I don't know what this does to the visions of HB passed out on the couch all day, but I should hope it would blow them all out of the water. AMU leaves tomorrow morning, Monday, and returns Friday evening. She has been summoned for team building and the like. I have a bunch of deals I have to run and situations to negotiate (work feeds these days like a fire hose with some really interesting and demanding stuff -mind you, I do not get paid for showing up, I get paid for what I deliver and fortunately that is valued cause otherwise people wouldn't pay the bills, which are not small), kids to care for, practices to run, and the usual. No games the rest of this week until Saturday.

Oh, and I scheduled blood work and a physical for this week. Blood drawn tomorrow morning.

This particular place seems to have lost whatever value it may have had in helping with marital problems.

I think I am gone for a while. My experience over the past few weeks was frustrating, but told me more that this place could not help us. Or that many were here not to help others but to help themselves feel better about themselves. Thanks to those who contributed.

Maybe I'll let you know the results from the physical. My wife has said for some time that she hopes I have liver damage to a point of no return. I wonder too sometimes whether I am looking for stage left.

This week and now AMU is gone for team building. So, as always I have 4 girls to rouse from bed in the morning, make breakfast for, finish unfinished homework, get dressed, pack snacks and whatever gear or equipment is needed, see them to the school buses. Then they return starting around 3pm. Then there is pick up from theatre an hour and a half later. Then there is pick up from school soccer. Then there is the soccer I coach from 5 to 630. Then there is dinner. Then there is homework. Then brushing of the teeth and back to bed. Oh, and I have to structure, advise on, negotiate, and run some deals. So when and why should I go to my office and eat up some piece of the day in transit and in getting ready to go and come back that I do not have only to turn around as soon as I have gotten settled? I suppose I could go, close the door, and take a nap on the comfy couch and say don't bother me when my assistant tells me X or Y is calling or that my kids are calling asking when I will be home. 

Maybe I repeat myself a lot. Maybe I wouldn't if people read the threads instead of raising as if new things that had been discussed and discussed already.

We seem to be in an OK place right now. I don't want to screw it up.


----------



## BrockLanders

Harken Banks said:


> There seems to be some confusion on timelines and issues. To try to clear things up a bit:
> 
> 1. The constant anger, resentment, and rage directed in all directions within the house started more than a decade ago. I could never make sense of it. I was confused and traumatized to the point of almost not being able to function (going back a decade or more) and didn't share or have any outlet until I first met with a counselor about 4.5 years ago. But apparently others picked up some of it.
> 
> 2. The bedroom becoming AMU's office and shopping and personal space where I was not welcome started about 8 years ago. AMU made it clear I was not welcome there anymore as that was exclusively her space and I started sleeping and dressing in other rooms of the house, on a pullout in the living room sometimes or a cot in the spare room before the renovations. This is going back 8 years. There is some discussion as to what happened after things had broken down badly and AMU asked me to come back to share a bed while we were in renovation. This was while we were out of the house and I had become accustomed to and more comfortable not being in her office/personal space and did not respond as she wanted. We did eventually return to sharing a bed while at the rental house and that was nice but she still did and does sit in bed with a computer or iPad in her lap and sometimes the lights on often until 2 or 3 in the morning, which is approaching the time I wake up. Sharing a bed ended with her insistence on separation and my return to exile. That is discussed ad nauseum here so I won't revisit.
> 
> 3. Working from home I have done to some extent for the last 14 years. It's part of the flexibility I have. It's my firm. As I have written, I could work from Bora Bora if I wanted to. I am where I want to be.
> 
> Over the earlier years I had increasing frustration over the difficulty of getting to the office due to commitments at home and then being called back when I was in the middle of things. It seemed other things were being heaped on that eclipsed what I thought was my work space. Around 4 years ago and with 4 young girls and full on commitments to parenting I started spending more time working from home as I could start when I woke sometimes at 3 or 4 in the morning for a few hours and then be with the girls for about 3 hours and driving where they needed to go and the resume what I was engaged in and get to whatever I needed to get to in parenting or coaching commitments throughout the day or in the afternoon or evening without adding the time and exercise of transferring to the office in town and commuting. That is part of the flexibility I have and it was and is more convenient often. For some time I was resentful as counterparties on deals and clients didn't have these restrictions and could as I used to work through the night if necessary from the office and wake up and go back. At one point about 5 years ago as I was driving one of my daughters to a morning soccer practice and as usual stressed and distressed at all the commitments and how I could possibly meet them, I had realized that at that moment I was doing exactly what I wanted to be doing. I was with my kids involved in their lives and development, engaging and interacting with them, and experiencing what they were experiencing. I remember the moment which came after years of stress about how am I possibly going to get all of this done and realized that for all of the stress what is important gets done and almost seems to take care of itself. Sometimes I go to the office or to meetings outside. Probably professionally I could quite profitably spend several weeks or more of the year travelling to NY and LA or SF and points in between but as AMU knows well it's not my favorite thing and the work seems to take care of itself without the travel. I have more than I need. And I have a pretty spectacular setting here and this is where I generally like to be. Or in the mountains with the girls. Maybe 90 or 95% of my clients and the people I deal with professionally are in financial centers or other points thousands of miles away. So, yeah, when I am dealing with all that I am looking at the ocean or at the mountains and counterparties and clients are several hundred feet up a high rise and an or more commute from home. Doesn't matter to them whether I am looking at the water from my house or in an office somewhere when we talk and interact. So the view that I putter around in my PJs is not the picture. It's a good gig. It's a really good gig. I am independent professionally. I have absorbed family commitments and enjoy those. It all fits in the jar. Yes, if I were not spending 3 or more hours every morning with the girls going through the morning and breakfast routine or headed to a school event or practice in the afternoons or covering because AMU is away I could slay a few more dragons, but the career has taken care of itself quite nicely. And I have an office with people who work for me and can do lots of the running around and fetching that really I do not miss. It's a really good gig. And made possible through more than 20 years of hard work and achievement and building a professional reputation that has become the driver in the perpetual motion machine.
> 
> 4. AMU's really to me and to this day impossible to understand thing with this random sales guy at a work event/social getaway was now about 3 years ago. It went on for several months through lying to me and to others about what was going on. Even as I fell apart in confusion and depression. I had no idea what an affair or emotional affair was. But I learned when I googled some of the symptoms together. I found a few websites and I was like wow, that's me and that's her. And then I started to piece it together. And she just lied to my face, mocked and ridiculed me in my pain, and carried on. Until I found this place and then people like Bandit through PM exchanges said you are naive and this is much worse than you know. And they were right.
> 
> 5. Finally I broke through. That was late July 2012. And I was physically and pyschologically unable to be in her presence. This was after we had been through months and thousands of dollars of MC. It's in Initial Foray. And when I was waking up and could not for the time stand to be with her, she started begging to go back to MC. I said no. The last time had been a disaster and the preceding 5 or 6 months had been a hell I cannot even imagine today. It was awful. Daily and nightly hell and torment. I remember she pleaded why won't you fight for the marriage!? I responded I fought tooth and nail for the marriage over the past 6 months while you lied flat out to my face and ridiculed me as I fell apart in front of you. I don't have it in me now. Just thinking back I cannot believe I stayed in the marriage. But I did. And at one point while we were in this state and I remember the exact moment we were with the girls at a summer festival with rides ands and games and art walks and all sorts of local seafood and other offerings and I looked at the girls. The oldest two had just returned from a summer camp. And I looked at AMU. Everyone was in pain. Everyone was suffering. I think at this point I had moved back to the house and the girls would alternate nights staying. And I looked and I thought it's up to me to fix this. And I held AMU's hand and gave an embrace and said we can get through this. And she cried there in the middle of the fairground. Then we had about a week or two where it looked like we were going build something better. Then her focus shifted to the promotion she was after that would mean more time away and more time at events like the ones she was at when this all started. I helped her with her resume and letter of interest and she used a conference room in my office for the interviews. And I consulted a divorce lawyer. Best in the state. It's all in Initial Foray.
> 
> I felt that she had turned away from me and away from the marriage and I thought she might be returning but now it seemed clear she was not and I had to face that. She was hurt and dejected and could not understand that this to me was set back emotionally and otherwise that told me I was wrong in my feeling over the previous 2 weeks.
> 
> She knew it would mean more of the same travel as that was made express by the person who would be her new boss. Without saying it was connected to the promotion she was after she asked about a proposed travel schedule and how that would be. I said that it was painful even to think about. This was before it was offered and she accepted. I remember the conversation in our living room and where she sat and where I did and the words that were said. To this day she says it never happened. Some of that I shared in Initial Foray. I remember Happy Man chiming in.
> 
> 6. Nevertheless as I could not stand the thought of my beautiful family falling apart and the lives of our beautiful daughters imploding, I absorbed it and we worked on staying together. Except in that fall, some really nasty exchanges occurred. As a condition to re-entering MC and with some input from this place I required that she get individual counseling. She did and would return from the sessions with the diagnoses she and her therapist had come up with for me. My anger at the affair and at her was a form of abuse. I was abusive. This to punctuate more than a decade of sever abuse I had suffered capped by an affair and then gaslighting and manipulation and lying. That seemed to be the upshot of her counseling. I said this is your therapy, not mine and you can do with it what you want but diagnosing me as angry and abusive (ironic, really, really ironic, if you know the dynamic around here) just doesn't seem like a good use of your time.
> 
> 7. Well, around this time she was convinced she was the victim of abuse. Her friends including Caper and his wife were convinced. They started looking at how to get out with her and looking at rental properties in the area. It was like the world which was already upside down had become more inverted. I continued to try to hold this together. I sat at the foot of her bed mornings and would try to make the case for us and our family and how much I wanted for us, sunsets on the porch in our golden years, graduations and weddings and our girls coming back with their families and our grandchildren and so on. Not once. Many times. She would not respond when I asked after some time what did she want. Instead she would say I want you to leave. Usually she would be sitting in bed with her laptop and looking at that and not me. At one point while I was plaintively and probably a bit emotionally and pathetically trying to make the case for us I asked what she was looking at. She said "I'm exploring my options." She was scrolling through rental properties while I sat at the end of the bed saying what about us? She began insisting on separation. I said I thought it was a bad idea and seemed to spell the end of the marriage given where we were and what had occurred. She continued with that theme. We re-entered MC with a new therapist. The one I called last week to re-engage. She seemed very good. But the sessions were very bad. AMU running each week through all of her complaints and all of the ways in which I was not meeting her needs. She was reading that book at this point.
> 
> After months of this we reached a point where the insistence on separation was constant. I maintained that I thought that was a bad idea of continuation of the marriage was an objective, if that was what she wanted I could not say no, and that would be my cue to exit stage left. Over a period of more than a year I had been nearly destroyed by this. My health had suffered, my work had suffered, emotionally I had been a wreck. I was destroying myself on this altar and everyone around us could see that. So, realizing my disintegration was not in anyone's interest I said that if we are separating then I understand it is time for me to put my life back together and start looking forward instead of back. She insisted. MC did not independently come up with the idea. And she said ordinarily I would not recommend separation, but if the girls are in the middle of this and suffering then you should consider it. This was not to save the marriage but to spare the girls witnessing the war between their parents. That I understood. And I was thinking, hey, let's just stop the war. It always seems as easy as that to me, and yet it is not. I don't know why.
> 
> She insisted. Casually over lunch in a restaurant at the mountain she asked when April vacation was. I said I did not know. She said, well February break is coming up and you will be here with the girls and I want to take them for a vacation over April vacation and I am planning a schedule of custody. I had no response. I said I did not know and that was the end of the conversation at lunch but it continued. Shortly after she told me the week on week off schedule. The first week she would leave the rental house and return to my parents. And she did. She expected me to vacate the following week and I said I would not but would sleep on the couch in the living room, which I did. For the next several weeks. And understanding that things were pretty much over I started to talk to other people. Some were moving faster than I was prepared for and I said maybe just coffee but I am not sure I am ready for that. One in particular expressed some urgency and insisted on meeting to tell me something important. She worked nearby and I said OK, I'll meet you for coffee since it seems urgent. I was not interested in any way romantically or sexually but she had taken a lot of time to write to me about stuff and I said OK. At this point I was wearing my ring and she said it was unfair of me to not be available and toying with her and others. I didn't think I was doing that but listened. She also mentioned that she wanted to pull me across the table, take me home and bake me cookies, and so on. She is a good person but the experience was odd. And I had no intention of visiting her house or any other place. I came because she expressed urgency. We know many people in common. AMU, who I knew was monitoring my communications, has saved all of it and can share some if she cares.
> 
> I also talked to a few other women, some of whom I already knew and considered friends. In this period I continued to express to AMU that I wanted us and could not understand why we were separated or how that was a good thing but that it was something I could only accept. And if after all of that had gone on she wanted separation over my very clearly and consistently expressed desire to stay together and put our marriage and family back together, I was going to resume my life. It seemed to me like the only sensible thing I could do at that point. So we stopped MC. AMU said I am not going to MC if you are talking to other women and I felt that since we are separated and it seems like everything in the dynamic to suit you but not me. In the long aftermath I need you to come closer, I needed us to be closer, and you only moved further away, knowing that that was breaking me. I am going to start the process of meeting people again. Re-entering the world. She said then I will cancel the appointment with Deb. I shrugged.
> 
> We stayed married and made occasional passing attempts at relationship, but without heart or follow through. Our girls grew and developed and delighted, but suffered noticeably. I felt the best for them was us together but that was an option that had been taken away from me. Things continued bristly. There are things AMU and I have written about here and in Initial Foray. The arguments reached a point where she was screaming divorce (and things much worse) and I said OK, fine, send me again the list of divorce mediators you got from your therapist. She did. I said this one is fine. She set up the appointment. We had pre-appointment interviews by phone. We went. It was like MC all over again. I thought we were there to sort out an arrangement and it seemed AMU wanted to run through all of the ways in which I was a jerk and had disappointed her. It was hell, where I thought it would be difficult but orderly. I made clear my view contrary to the advice I had received that first day I saw the divorce lawyer that she was my wife and we had 4 girls to raise and what's mine was hers in asset division and that it seemed to me we would split everything straight down the middle and work on the best arrangements for the girls. Didn't go that way. We got to a point where I could feel that I was upset enough that I could not productively participate and no real progress was being made so I apologized and excused myself. First day at divorce mediation, we didn't get it all worked out, understandable. I had a previously scheduled lunch with friends.
> 
> I was on Match. A woman said she was going to be at a local gathering spot in our town around 4 and asked if I had time for coffee. I was scheduled to pick up our oldest from an after school event and this place was on the way. I said I don't have much time as I have to pick up my daughter and this is kind smack dab in the middle of my back yard but sure. AMU meanwhile had prepared a custody schedule that she left for me on my laptop and that I thought was very fair. She was also monitoring my communication, which I didn't really care about. I went, while I was there AMU called to say she would get oldest I didn't have to worry, I said OK and said hey, I can stay a bit and we each ordered a beer. AMU arrives, this women exits for the ladies room. We talk a bit. AMU leaves. Lady comes back. On AMU's schedule this is her night with the girls. I stay with the lady at the restaurant and have a nice time. We move to another local restaurant about 1000 feet away and have some appetizers. There was some interaction in the car, hers, on the way. It's a quiet town on a Thursday and the place closes at 10 so we leave in her car so she can take me to mine and there is more interaction. I am not a guy to make a first move. Stay out late. She offers we could go to her house and I say that is not something I am going to do tonight. I come home. Fall asleep. Not with AMU, of course.
> 
> Next night I go to the office and then visit the gym. While there I get a note from another woman saying she is in town and how about a drink. This is someone who was two years ahead of me in high school and then as on this night quite intriquing to me. I said yeah. We met. Shared a drink and dinner
> This was also AMU's night on the schedule. Eventually we leave the restaurant on foot and I say I'll walk her to her car (this is the middle of downtown) and do and as we walk we pass some live music and it sounds good so we go in. And listen to the band, which was good, and fool around in a dark corner of the venue and a bit on the dance floor. It's my second day of divorce and so far it has been a lot of fun. But it's late. We leave and I have one of those "you could have had a V-8" moments realizing that I left my car in my parking garage and left my pass in the car. It's after midnight and the gates come down at 10 so you are SOL if you do not have your key card to open the gates. She gives me a ride home. I ask her to stop at the top of the driveway so the lights don't come down to the house and we don't manufacture any drama. She does. I walk down to the house and try one front door. Locked. I laugh and walk to the other front door. Locked. Now I am chuckling. I walk around to the back and try one back door. Locked. I walk up the grade to the deck and try the back door. Locked. Now I am on the phone with her. She has left and is miles away on her way home. I am laughing and asking if I could ask another favor. One last try on the side door. Locked. She returns and now it's around 1 and offers for me to come to her house and I say if you could just take me to my parents' house, it's not far. And that is where I slept. After talking to my mom who was awakened by the dogs alerting my arrival.
> 
> Next night I am sleeping at home and usually keep my phone next to me so I know what time it is when I wake. I wake and reach for it and it is not there. It's probably around 1:30. I get up to look for it and notice some light and stirring in daughter #3's room. AMU has my phone and is texting these women about what ****s they are. I say hey can I have my phone. She forces the door shut and puts her weight against it. I'm like this is ridiculous, give me my phone. I get arm in and that gets crushed. I get a foot in and then in and try to reach for the phone which is then thrown. I get the phone, see the correspondence and go back to bed. But then there is yelling. Between us. She is like how could you do this? I am like we are getting divorced, what did you think would happen. She has tears, which is rare. I usually see only rage and anger. Turns out her thinking informed by this place to some degree was that to save your marriage you have to willing to lose it. I was like, why do we have to go through this exercise? You insist on and implement separation, I take it you want separation. You start divorce mediation, I take it you want divorce. You tell me you have paid several thousand dollars as retainer for your divorce lawyer, I take it that is part of your war chest. I lack guile. I took her at her word and deed.
> 
> So I say, if you want to be together, let's be together. That is what I have been asking for for years. So here we are. I hope we stay together.
> 
> But she is still resuscitating the divorce talk and the I hate yous and your an a**hole and every one of my friends and every one in my family says your an a**hole. For a long time that would really upset me, but now I take it for what it is. A way she tries to hurt me. It is manipulative and intended to embarrass and shame me and make me feel bad about myself. Which I can do on my own. I believe a few of her friends think I am a jerk or at least tell her that on GNOs. But we are cordial when we meet and talk and I don't worry about it. They wave in their cars if passing and we stop to chat at the grocery store or school event or game. And her dad and I have a good relationship although I think he has been fed a lot of her story and one of those separate vacations she took with our girls was with him (this was in the separation days) and both she and he said very pointedly you are not welcome. That was hurtful. They both knew it. But what can you do? And we recently hosted him and some of his friends who were on a bike tour and had a great time for the days they were here and we as we always do spent a lot of time talking about things of interest unrelated to relationships and have spoken since, quite warmly. I like him. I think he exercised poor judgment in the you are not welcome as I have a vacation with your wife and children thing. It was connected with his 70th birthday and I said happy birthday, I wish I could be there, but I understand. So what can you do?
> 
> Some suggest that everytime we have an argument I am off on dates. My wife has consistently and for more than a year had only the message in times of calm as well as heat that she wants separation and divorce. She's more vocal in a fit of rage, but there is no break from the message. When she institutionalized those things over my express and consistent statements in times of calm and rage that I did not want separation or divorce and that I felt strongly the best thing for our children would be for us to get along and repair our marriage. But then we have separation or divorce proceedings. In the past I thought, oh well, I tried my best. This has been going on for years and it's killing me and both of us are missing some good years. Big parts of our lives. I have asked for a single clear statement of commitment to counter all of the else. But there is no relent, no ***** in the armor. You can be sure that the next time I understand we are separating or divorcing I will be looking ahead and looking to putting my life back together.
> 
> Am I all right? No. Is AMU? No. Are some here addicted to uninformed judgment as it allows them to elevate themselves? I think so. Do they project from their own bad experience or marriages? Yep. Does it make them feel better and righteous as an aggrieved that they take swipes at their spouse or someone else with me or someone else as proxy even as the comparisons or conclusions are inapt? I think so. Are there some here with habitual certitude that is missing more than approaching the mark? I think so again. Are some of them hurting? I think so. Are they helping? Quite often not.
> 
> There are some really considered and patient and helpful people here. And everyone who contributes is in one form or another giving.
> 
> Also, some wrote that I deleted So was to "hide evidence." I gave everyone more than 72 hours notice I was considering taking it down and the reasons why. I was concerned it was making things worse between me and my wife. And they were not good to start. But I wanted them to get better. And I was aware that I had written things that were hard for her. Then Caper arrived and pretty much validated the things that had been said but also that introduced a concern about the friendships between our children and our friendships with him and his wife. At that point a decision that probably should have been easier was made for me. Our friendships and families are more important. And I still gave another 48 hours notice for anyone who wanted to preserve the transcript. And that was why the notice. More so out respect and gratitude.
> 
> Some got a little jabby about it and said what if I copy and paste this thread somewhere else, what then? Obviously I understood that 72 hours notice that I was thinking of taking it down allowed anyone to do with it as they saw fit. And also asked that they respect our friends, our children and their friends, and first, AMU. It was not about me and it is baffling to me anyone could read and see it that way. As it turns out, AMU was subscribed and read everything anyway and that has caused not small rift between our families and she feels she has lost good friends. I hope time and good will and character will repair that. I believe it will. Caper and his wife care very much about us and our children.
> 
> Peace. Goodnight. It's 3:13 am Sunday morning and I couldn't sleep but I have 2 games to coach tomorrow and need to find some rest. Coaching is harder than playing.
> 
> It will be a couple days before I can post this, but I will. All stream of conscience on sleep deprivation.
> 
> Update Sunday afternoon: My girls won 2-0 and 4-2 against strong teams well coached. It was a good day on the pitch. They played spectacularly. It was good therapy. Cleared my head. I was unthinking, unburdened, and happy. As several nights a week and several hours of every weekend in season I spent hours on the pitch or side just really in the moment with a bunch of terrific young women. The head coach of the 4-2 team was someone I played with 25 years ago and coaching the team from where I grew up. We've crossed paths a few times. He was a class year ahead of me in a really strong class with only me and another underclassmen on varsity, me as the only starter. I played a couple class years ahead. Good player, him. And a good guy. We gibed each other, ribbed, and sported on the sideline. It was fun. And good to see an old friend. Already into prepping for clinicing for skiing and the season, which will start as soccer ends, beginning of November. So I don't know what this does to the visions of HB passed out on the couch all day, but I should hope it would blow them all out of the water. AMU leaves tomorrow morning, Monday, and returns Friday evening. She has been summoned for team building and the like. I have a bunch of deals I have to run and situations to negotiate (work feeds these days like a fire hose with some really interesting and demanding stuff -mind you, I do not get paid for showing up, I get paid for what I deliver and fortunately that is valued cause otherwise people wouldn't pay the bills, which are not small), kids to care for, practices to run, and the usual. No games the rest of this week until Saturday.
> 
> Oh, and I scheduled blood work and a physical for this week. Blood drawn tomorrow morning.
> 
> This particular place seems to have lost whatever value it may have had in helping with marital problems.
> 
> I think I am gone for a while. My experience over the past few weeks was frustrating, but told me more that this place could not help us. Or that many were here not to help others but to help themselves feel better about themselves. Thanks to those who contributed.
> 
> Maybe I'll let you know the results from the physical. My wife has said for some time that she hopes I have liver damage to a point of no return. I wonder too sometimes whether I am looking for stage left.
> 
> This week and now AMU is gone for team building. So, as always I have 4 girls to rouse from bed in the morning, make breakfast for, finish unfinished homework, get dressed, pack snacks and whatever gear or equipment is needed, see them to the school buses. Then they return starting around 3pm. Then there is pick up from theatre an hour and a half later. Then there is pick up from school soccer. Then there is the soccer I coach from 5 to 630. Then there is dinner. Then there is homework. Then brushing of the teeth and back to bed. Oh, and I have to structure, advise on, negotiate, and run some deals. So when and why should I go to my office and eat up some piece of the day in transit and in getting ready to go and come back that I do not have only to turn around as soon as I have gotten settled? I suppose I could go, close the door, and take a nap on the comfy couch and say don't bother me when my assistant tells me X or Y is calling or that my kids are calling asking when I will be home.
> 
> Maybe I repeat myself a lot. Maybe I wouldn't if people read the threads instead of raising as if new things that had been discussed and discussed already.
> 
> We seem to be in an OK place right now. I don't want to screw it up.


That was pretty comprehensive. I have nothing to add but to wish you good luck. By all accounts you have a pretty sweet thing going for yourself, which you seem to be aware of.


----------



## turnera

AMU, will you give the alternative view? Maybe there's a happy medium somewhere in between.


----------



## missthelove2013

Please...the next time there is a thread with 2 married lawyers, can we please put it in the title...


what a debacle...I just read this...we have cheaters cheating on the cheater site...and I was called a troll lol...


----------



## happyman64

missthelove2013 said:


> Please...the next time there is a thread with 2 married lawyers, can we please put it in the title...
> 
> 
> what a debacle...I just read this...we have cheaters cheating on the cheater site...and I was called a troll lol...


:iagree:
And people ask me why I detest lawyers. Look above at the length and detail of HB's post and you'll know why.

Sadly, I think AMU and HB are bright, talented people. But for the life of me I cannot see what they saw in each other.

Maybe in one sentence each of them can tell us what they saw in each other and what made them fall in love with each other.

Ok. For HB I will allow two sentences. 

By the way did HB help write the new Healthcare Act. The style looks the same.


----------



## missthelove2013

happyman64 said:


> :iagree:
> And people ask me why I detest lawyers. Look above at the length and detail of HB's post and you'll know why.
> 
> Sadly, I think AMU and HB are bright, talented people. But for the life of me I cannot see what they saw in each other.
> 
> Maybe in one sentence each of them can tell us what they saw in each other and what made them fall in love with each other.
> 
> Ok. For HB I will allow two sentences.
> 
> By the way did HB help write the new Healthcare Act. The style looks the same.


problem is any litigating lawyer, his/her sole skill is the ability to bullcrap...and unfortunately many start to believe their own bullcrap...use enough words and soon you are right, or the other is so confuses that it doesnt matter anyways...sigh

the lawyer in my divorce was a female, very attractive...and had been married 4 times LOL...to 3 lawyers and currently a judge...they JUST separated LOL...not a match made in heaven


----------



## BrockLanders

missthelove2013 said:


> problem is any litigating lawyer, his/her sole skill is the ability to bullcrap...and unfortunately many start to believe their own bullcrap...use enough words and soon you are right, or the other is so confuses that it doesnt matter anyways...sigh
> 
> the lawyer in my divorce was a female, very attractive...and had been married 4 times LOL...to 3 lawyers and currently a judge...they JUST separated LOL...not a match made in heaven


HB has already stated he's a transactional lawyer. He's not a litigator, he brokers deals.


----------



## bfree

I had to reboot my phone after it locked up trying to read Harken's post. I wonder what that really means.


----------



## CantePe

Mine was struggling with that wall of text too...wow...


----------



## bfree

Harken, you have made quite a few mistakes but your pain is palpable. I can feel it from here. Rather than hear a response from AMU on an alternate view I would like to hear how this post makes her feel. I know how it made me feel and I'm not (supposedly) in love with Harken.


----------



## LongWalk

I got through it okay.

Keep posting.


----------



## Harken Banks

bfree said:


> Harken, you have made quite a few mistakes but your pain is palpable. I can feel it from here. Rather than hear a response from AMU on an alternate view I would like to hear how this post makes her feel. I know how it made me feel and I'm not (supposedly) in love with Harken.




She's upset. That is understandable. This is hard stuff.

We are no different or better or worse than anyone else. Except for the better part. I married her because she was better.

Edit: Appreciated. Thanks for the love.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: Initial foray*



Harken Banks said:


> Appreciated, but I don't roll that way.
> 
> She's upset. That is understandable. This is hard stuff.
> 
> We are no different or better or worse than anyone else. Except for the better part. I married her because she was better.


Understood. I pray that both of you can lower your walls and have an honest and open discussion with no judgments or defensiveness.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

That made my head hurt. Not what you wrote, but how different it is form AMU's versions. It is always interesting to see both sides of the same battle, but I have nothing to add. I hope you guys figure out what to do because you guys are light years apart to me and it has been slowly killing both of you.

Good luck.


----------



## Harken Banks

phillybeffandswiss said:


> That made my head hurt. Not what you wrote, but how different it is form AMU's versions. It is always interesting to see both sides of the same battle, but I have nothing to add. I hope you guys figure out what to do because you guys are light years apart to me and it has been slowly killing both of you.
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks. I wish it weren't a battle. I hope it is not. There are some who seem to want to instigate battle. I think that is unhelpful.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Harken Banks said:


> Thanks. I wish it weren't a battle. I hope it is not. There are some who seem to want to instigate battle. I think that is unhelpful.


I think people project their own feelings into threads, take sides and don't see it as instigating. To me, just my opinion, when two people have to be absolutely right it is a battle. Many of the posts sound like you both want people to take sides for or against the other spouse. I think that's why you see instigation where I see it more as emotional projection.


----------



## Harken Banks

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I think people project their own feelings into threads, take sides and don't see it as instigating. To me, just my opinion, when two people have to be absolutely right it is a battle. Many of the posts sound like you both want people to take sides for or against the other spouse. I think that's why you see instigation where I see it more as emotional projection.


I think you are right. I made a post somewhere about horses and blinders. Maybe I should have referenced Pavlov and his dogs. Everyone here projects

I don't mean that in any perjorative sense. It's just what we do here. With small exception. One of them maybe being a hoagie.


----------



## Openminded

I hope you and your family find peace, HB.


----------



## Harken Banks

Openminded said:


> I hope you and your family find peace, HB.


Thank you. That is what I hope too.


----------



## Harken Banks

We had a really nice and easy morning. We are just back from theatre and soccer and provisioning. Then a really good dinner at home. No discord. Coming close to time for teeth and jammies. I am looking forward to sleep. I didn't have any last night. Again. That is in my wiring and not on anyone else.


----------



## warlock07

How long did it take you to type this?




turnera said:


> AMU, will you give the alternative view? Maybe there's a happy medium somewhere in between.



Please don't do this again tunera.


----------



## Harken Banks

Unidraft. From between 2 and 3 am last Friday or so. I don't remember at the moment but can probably come up with it with some time and thought. No re-read. The addendum after the games on Sunday. So about an hour and 15 minutes. AMU mentioned that she heard me typing. She may know better what morning.


----------



## turnera

Do what? I'm just asking to get both versions since they've shown that they vary wildly. You can't progress unless you acknowledge the reality. I'd like them both to get to a middle ground where they can start speaking in positive terms and look to the future in a positive way. When calvin and CSS first came here, they were doing pretty much the same thing, and having this community to support them and also hold their feet to the fire is what has helped them reach a really good point in their lives.


----------



## Harken Banks

I guess it must have been Sunday morning as I mentioned I had games to coach. But I just prattled and rattled like I always do.


----------



## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> How long did it take you to type this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't do this again tunera.


She is unhelpful. Worse. And she doesn't know it.


----------



## Harken Banks

happyman64 said:


> :iagree:
> And people ask me why I detest lawyers. Look above at the length and detail of HB's post and you'll know why.
> 
> Sadly, I think AMU and HB are bright, talented people. But for the life of me I cannot see what they saw in each other.
> 
> Maybe in one sentence each of them can tell us what they saw in each other and what made them fall in love with each other.
> 
> Ok. For HB I will allow two sentences.
> 
> By the way did HB help write the new Healthcare Act. The style looks the same.


I love my wife. QED.

HM, that's a funny thing. Caper sent me a facebook note asking if Turnera and Clipclop also thought I was this guy:

Massanutten. Water slides, mini-golf and bears.


----------



## DailyGrind

When someone posts a lengthy wall of text.... Do we REALLY need to quote the whole thing to respond? Geez!


----------



## LongWalk

> "You are old," said the youth, "And your jaws are too weak
> For anything tougher than suet;
> Yet you finished the goose, with the bones and the beak—
> Pray, how did you manage to do it?"
> 
> "In my youth," said his father, "I took to the law,
> And argued each case with my wife;
> And the muscular strength which it gave to my jaw,
> Has lasted the rest of my life."


Put yourself first. Concentrate on your health. If you do this, AMU may step up to bat and meet your needs.

Do not allow your intellect to carry the weight that your heart should bear.


----------



## warlock07

DailyGrind said:


> When someone posts a lengthy wall of text.... Do we REALLY need to quote the whole thing to respond? Geez!


Hey, how is it going with you ?


----------



## Harken Banks

Edit to wall of words, she got the list of divorce mediators from her divorce lawyer, not counselor. I was typing without reading. 

Hey Dailygrind. I was less than hospitable in the past. I was wrong and I'm sorry.

AMU and I are trying. We just are not following each other's efforts. For each, it's like Alice through the looking glass.


----------



## Pluto2

Harken Banks said:


> Edit to wall of words, she got the list of divorce mediators from her divorce lawyer, not counselor. I was typing without reading.
> 
> Hey Dailygrind. I was less than hospitable in the past. I was wrong and I'm sorry.
> 
> AMU and I are trying. We just are not following each other's efforts. For each, it's like Alice through the looking glass.


When you say you "are not following each other's efforts" what do you mean. Not paying attention, not keeping track, or not caring?


----------



## Harken Banks

Pluto2 said:


> When you say you "are not each other's efforts" what do you mean. Not paying attention, not keeping track, or not caring?


We're like a pushmepullyou. Also, I may be incapable of making myself understood. No joke.


----------



## Pluto2

Harken Banks said:


> We're like a pushmepullyou. Also, I may be incapable of making myself understood. No joke.


Well my typeos certainly don't help with any clarity. Sorry-I fixed it.
I think I understand
Perhaps it is a start.


----------



## DailyGrind

warlock07 said:


> Hey, how is it going with you ?



I'll update my thread soon. Been lurking for too long without one. But things are great now. I have a wonderful relationship with my W now.


----------



## DailyGrind

Harken Banks said:


> Edit to wall of words, she got the list of divorce mediators from her divorce lawyer, not counselor. I was typing without reading.
> 
> Hey Dailygrind. I was less than hospitable in the past. I was wrong and I'm sorry.
> 
> AMU and I are trying. We just are not following each other's efforts. For each, it's like Alice through the looking glass.



I don't remember that. We are cool. I have to go back through your thread. Last I remember you guys were getting on better.


----------



## Racer

No idea who wrote this, but you can find stuff like this about Carrol’s Alice in Wonderland from folks doing critical reviews… Funny how much I identify with Alice falling down a hole where the rules aren’t the same and just sort of facing it bravely (or not depending on how you want to see it) and finding amusement rather than terror at the ‘strangeness’. It just is and she adapts whether or not she really wants to.



> *“Who in the world am I?”* Ah, that’s the great puzzle.
> Alice asks this question of herself in Chapter 2 of Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, just after she has grown to a giant size and frightened the White Rabbit away. Alice realizes that she is not just trying to figure out Wonderland, but also attempting to determine who she is and what constitutes her identity in a world that actively challenges her perspective and sense of self. Wonderland has already begun to affect Alice, and she rightly understands that her self perception cannot remain fixed in a world that has drastically different rules from her own. In Wonderland, Alice has a slippery grasp of her identity. Since Wonderland is a byproduct of her own imagination, it becomes clear that it is Alice’s identity and not Wonderland itself that is being called into question. The nonsensical features and characters that make up Wonderland extend from Alice’s own psyche, so her quest to understand Wonderland becomes a quest to understand the forces and feelings that comprise her identity.


Just thought it might feed some brain candy for you Harken (or AMU) as you too jumped down some hole to find it’s not a hole at all but someplace entirely different. I love this reviewer's choice on words of "actively challenges her perspective and sense of self"... For me, words: marriage, love, family, husband, wife, sex, hate, ...... all were challenged and redefined into new perspectives that shift as the scenery changes. Or I just might be loosing it finally because this non-sense does make sense in my head


----------



## Harken Banks

Racer said:


> No idea who wrote this, but you can find stuff like this about Carrol’s Alice in Wonderland from folks doing critical reviews… Funny how much I identify with Alice falling down a hole where the rules aren’t the same and just sort of facing it bravely (or not depending on how you want to see it) and finding amusement rather than terror at the ‘strangeness’. It just is and she adapts whether or not she really wants to.
> 
> 
> 
> Just thought it might feed some brain candy for you Harken (or AMU) as you too jumped down some hole to find it’s not a hole at all but someplace entirely different. I love this reviewer's choice on words of "actively challenges her perspective and sense of self"... For me, words: marriage, love, family, husband, wife, sex, hate, ...... all were challenged and redefined into new perspectives that shift as the scenery changes. Or I just might be loosing it finally because this non-sense does make sense in my head


Excellent fun stuff. The switch of perspective is important, even when comical. No less so then.

Just back from dinner at the waterfront joint with the 4 It's a chip shot or less. Not even an underhand toss. Gorgeous spot on the water and if you fall out of our yard to your left looking east you fall into theirs. It's part of the marina. Which is pretty much the premiere mooring field and landing point on the east coast. We really are in a fantastic spot. I pinch myself. Saw some friends and we had a nice time. Also had to meet with some clients today. At my office. I probably needed to check on things anyway. New business, so I shaved and wore shoes. It was fun. Entertaining. Thanks, Racer.


----------



## Harken Banks

Sunrise is coming later now. I like late June when it comes 430 over the water. Now it's more 6. But in the summer months it's right behind an island. Clapboard. In the fall and winter it moves to where it is on the water again. Those 15 minutes are my favorite of the day. Everything is possible. Everything is new. Nothing is stained.


----------



## happyman64

Harken Banks said:


> I love my wife. QED.
> 
> HM, that's a funny thing. Caper sent me a facebook note asking if Turnera and Clipclop also thought I was this guy:
> 
> Massanutten. Water slides, mini-golf and bears.


Oh man that was funny.

Have you ever dressed your dog as a bear HB?


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Harken Banks said:


> *The arguments reached a point where she was screaming divorce (and things much worse) and I said OK, fine, send me again the list of divorce mediators you got from your therapist. She did. I said this one is fine. She set up the appointment. We had pre-appointment interviews by phone. We went. It was like MC all over again. I thought we were there to sort out an arrangement and it seemed AMU wanted to run through all of the ways in which I was a jerk and had disappointed her. * It was hell, where I thought it would be difficult but orderly. I made clear my view contrary to the advice I had received that first day I saw the divorce lawyer that she was my wife and we had 4 girls to raise and what's mine was hers in asset division and that it seemed to me we would split everything straight down the middle and work on the best arrangements for the girls. Didn't go that way. We got to a point where I could feel that I was upset enough that I could not productively participate and no real progress was being made so I apologized and excused myself. *First day at divorce mediation, we didn't get it all worked out, understandable. I had a previously scheduled lunch with friends.*
> ....
> 
> Next night I am sleeping at home and usually keep my phone next to me so I know what time it is when I wake. I wake and reach for it and it is not there. It's probably around 1:30. I get up to look for it and notice some light and stirring in daughter #3's room. AMU has my phone and is texting these women about what ****s they are. I say hey can I have my phone. She forces the door shut and puts her weight against it. I'm like this is ridiculous, give me my phone. I get arm in and that gets crushed. I get a foot in and then in and try to reach for the phone which is then thrown. I get the phone, see the correspondence and go back to bed. But then there is yelling. Between us. She is like how could you do this? I am like we are getting divorced, what did you think would happen. She has tears, which is rare. I usually see only rage and anger. Turns out her thinking informed by this place to some degree was that to save your marriage you have to willing to lose it. I was like, why do we have to go through this exercise? * You insist on and implement separation, I take it you want separation. You start divorce mediation, I take it you want divorce. You tell me you have paid several thousand dollars as retainer for your divorce lawyer, I take it that is part of your war chest. I lack guile. I took her at her word and deed. *



So in actual fact, you left a DIVORCE mediation counsellor to meet up with someone from Match.com, not a MARRIAGE Counselling session as AMU would have us believe?

It was just as I read it from your SO thread. That's why I understood it as you believing that you were indeed separated from AMU before you went on a date.

Fair enough. You say you took her at her word and deed.

Thanks for clearing that up for me HB. 

I hope everything eventually works out for you both.

If you can talk to each other like you've never talked before about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING and as dispassionately as you can possibly make it so. If AMU reduces the hours she spends away from home and you can at least cut down the amount of alcohol that she states you consume, there MAY be some hope for you both.

If not. Then it just doesn't look possible IMO.

Best wishes to you both and your little girls.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

happyman64 said:


> Oh man that was funny.
> 
> Have you ever dressed your dog as a bear HB?


That dog dressed in a bear blanket was just hilarious! :rofl:


----------



## Harken Banks

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> So in actual fact, you left a DIVORCE mediation counsellor to meet up with someone from Match.com, not a MARRIAGE Counselling session as AMU would have us believe?
> 
> It was just as I read it from your SO thread. That's why I understood it as you believing that you were indeed separated from AMU before you went on a date.
> 
> Fair enough. You say you took her at her word and deed.
> 
> Thanks for clearing that up for me HB.
> 
> I hope everything eventually works out for you both.
> 
> If you can talk to each other like you've never talked before about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING and as dispassionately as you can possibly make it so. If AMU reduces the hours she spends away from home and you can at least cut down the amount of alcohol that she states you consume, there MAY be some hope for you both.
> 
> If not. Then it just doesn't look possible IMO.
> 
> Best wishes to you both and your little girls.


Yes. Thank you. I did talk to women and go to coffee with the woman who insisted that we had to meet for her to tell me something she could tell me only in person (AMU in the end spent more time in communication with her than I did) and get an appetizer and drink several months prior while we were in separation and preceding divorce mediation. Physical contact was only during the two days of active divorce process. The two of us see this differently. I had had enough. With all that had gone on and for so long I saw separation as the end. I tried over months and tears to explain that as best I could. Physical contact was only during divorce process.


----------



## Harken Banks

At the time and looking back, I think she was using separation and divorce to manipulate me and make me hurt. I had had enough of being manipulated and hurt.


----------



## warlock07

What about the financial situation. can you guys afford a divorce?


----------



## LongWalk

Harken,

I disagree with HappyMan about you being combative because of your profession. In your analysis of your marital conflict you routinely summarize your positions.

Do you distort reality? Perhaps. Still you seek to conciliate. You are a fixer. Merger and acquisition, that's all about finding leverage in common interest. You are good at that. You have a critical facility for seeing the reasonable and human.

So why doesn't AMU play ball? She routinely rejects compromise by punishing you. Yet you have tolerated it for years. Why?

I think there several reasons for this. Being the fixer is one. I will not name others because they are apparent if you choose to see them.

Vince Lombardi said that "fatigue makes cowards of us all."

How can you gain a second wind to fight for your marriage?


----------



## Harken Banks

warlock07 said:


> What about the financial situation. can you guys afford a divorce?


Of course. We would go from being affluent to budgets and making ends meet for a while as we maintain the same standard of living. But in short time we might be more affluent separately.


----------



## Harken Banks

LongWalk said:


> Harken,
> 
> I disagree with HappyMan about you being combative because of your profession. In your analysis of your marital conflict you routinely summarize your positions.
> 
> Do you distort reality? Perhaps. Still you seek to conciliate. You are a fixer. Merger and acquisition, that's all about finding leverage in common interest. You are good at that. You have a critical facility for seeing the reasonable and human.
> 
> So why doesn't AMU play ball? She routinely rejects compromise by punishing you. Yet you have tolerated it for years. Why?
> 
> I think there several reasons for this. Being the fixer is one. I will not name others because they are apparent if you choose to see them.
> 
> Vince Lombardi said that "fatigue makes cowards of us all."
> 
> How can you gain a second wind to fight for your marriage?


Maybe not a second wind. Sustained commitment. I tell her consistently I am game. She says wants to take the ball and go home. If that's the case, I'll play with someone else.


----------



## LongWalk

I was saddened to read that she said she hoped you had suffered irreparable liver damage. However, wishing to put a positive spin on it, isn't she trying to shock you into changing? If you quit drinking, would that constitute surrender to tyranny?

There was a moralistic preaching article in a Swedish tabloid the other day in which the daughter of an alcoholic rock legend Ulf Lundell talked about the affect of drinking on her father.

Did alcohol ruin his life? In 1977 he married Barbro Zackrisson. Between 1989-1992 he was married to Fredrika Gunnarsdotter Stjärne. He had three children with his first wife. One with the second.

In the 90s he was together with poet Isabella Nerman.
After 2000 he lived with Ulrika Rickfors. In March of 2014 he married Sofia Möller.

Who is to say this was failure? His daughter admitted that when he was drinking he was a funny guy. There was chaos, too. 

Yesterday, our club had a meeting in Löwenbrau, a pub that is strategically located on the way to the city center. I ordered a beer of 5.9% in strength, which I drank on an empty stomach. Later I felt that mild but alarming ache which I interpret to be my liver protesting. I regretted drinking the beer. I need to cut back even more. The occasional beer should be even fewer.

I wish I could drink but I cannot. My liver is not what it was. Traitorous organ. MattMatt also faced this.


----------



## Harken Banks

Early last winter I pulled an abdominal muscle doing something no 45 year old should do. But I was having fun with my team and every now and then the old man has to show them what's what. I didn't notice at the time. Monday morning back at home I could almost not get out of bed. Severe right side pain. It stayed with me for at least 2 weeks. I was convinced my liver was necrotizing inside me. And carried on with the every day and then coaching and going to events on weekends carrying this terrible secret that was eating my spirit and psyche. I googled all sorts of things about liver pain. It was serious pull and I don't bounce back like I used to. But in time it went away. In fact, this coincided with the 2 days of divorce. I remember describing to the 2nd date that I thought quite possibly my liver was dying inside me. It hurt. But the cat has 9 lives.


----------



## Pluto2

Harken Banks said:


> Maybe not a second wind. Sustained commitment. I tell her consistently I am game. She says wants to take the ball and go home. If that's the case, I'll play with someone else.


HB,
Are you aware of how these types of statements are interpreted? You are telling your spouse that she is easily replaceable, and hence not worth the effort to stay. Is that how you intend it to be received?


----------



## Harken Banks

I had forgotten, but remembering now it seemed to be localized between the 2nd and 3rd ribs on the right side. I couldn't tell if the injury was inside our outside the cage, but it was awful.


----------



## Harken Banks

Pluto2 said:


> HB,
> Are you aware of how these types of statements are interpreted? You are telling your spouse that she is easily replaceable, and hence not worth the effort to stay. Is that how you intend it to be received?


I have nearly destroyed myself over the last several years trying to save this marriage. That is still what I want. I think we are in an OK place. But there comes a time. If after everything, what she has for me is I am exploring my options and I don't know what I want, well? Those are exactly the things she said to me on the day I discovered the affair. Those are the things she says to me today. I want us, but it may not be on the menu. I'm not going to spend a lot of time fuming about it once that is clear.


----------



## BrockLanders

Waterfront home with a marina down the road? Get a boat!


----------



## turnera

Did the counselor call you back for an appointment?


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Harken Banks said:


> I have nearly destroyed myself over the last several years trying to save this marriage. That is still what I want. I think we are in an OK place. But there comes a time.* If after everything, what she has for me is I am exploring my options and I don't know what I want, well? Those are exactly the things she said to me on the day I discovered the affair. * Those are the things she says to me today. I want us, but it may not be on the menu. I'm not going to spend a lot of time fuming about it once that is clear.


You are still so obviously hurting over AMU's affair. I can "hear" the deep and painful hurt you feel in your words. It was never dealt with as it should have been.

Was she ever remorseful in ANYway that she expressed to you on a deeply personal level? As in really coming from her heart?


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Harken Banks said:


> I had forgotten, but remembering now it seemed to be localized between the 2nd and 3rd ribs on the right side. I couldn't tell if the injury was inside our outside the cage, but it was awful.





> I remember describing to the 2nd date that I thought quite possibly my liver was dying inside me.


Pain from the liver is deep. Intercostal rib pain more shallow. 

But an enlarged liver is relatively easy to self palpate as long as obesity is not a factor.


----------



## Harken Banks

BrockLanders said:


> Waterfront home with a marina down the road? Get a boat!


Got one.


----------



## Harken Banks

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> You are still so obviously hurting over AMU's affair. I can "hear" the deep and painful hurt you feel in your words. It was never dealt with as it should have been.
> 
> Was she ever remorseful in ANYway that she expressed to you on a deeply personal level? As in really coming from her heart?


I think we had about a week or two of that. She doesn't like other people's pain. Flees the scene. That is my view.


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Did the counselor call you back for an appointment?


I don't think she did. I'll check the machine. She is not very good about responding promptly and refuses electronic communication. So the call goes to voicemail at her office, which she visits a couple days a week. But if she is on vacation, I wouldn't know. I will call again this morning.


----------



## turnera

Harken Banks said:


> I think we had about a week or two of that. She doesn't like other people's pain. Flees the scene. That is my view.


AMU, what was it like from your viewpoint? Are you aware he felt like you gave two weeks and then fled the issue?


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Harken Banks said:


> I think we had about a week or two of that. She doesn't like other people's pain. Flees the scene. That is my view.


So you were never able to talk about your feelings around it then?

This is a huge issue in your ability to recover. No wonder you are trying to drown your sorrows. 

You want your family to remain together desperately, but the pain is to deep to remain in your full awareness on a day to day level?

AMU are you hearing this?


----------



## Harken Banks

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Pain from the liver is deep. Intercostal rib pain more shallow.
> 
> But an enlarged liver is relatively easy to self palpate as long as obesity is not a factor.


We'll find out tomorrow, I suppose. There is not much between the skin and muscle wall. Plus, they have the blood work.


----------



## Harken Banks

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> So you were never able to talk about your feelings around it then?
> 
> This is a huge issue in your ability to recover. No wonder you are trying to drown your sorrows.
> 
> You want your family to remain together desperately, but the pain is to deep to remain in your full awareness on a day to day level?
> 
> AMU are you hearing this?


I have talked probably ad nauseum. I don't need to talk. It doesn't help me. It's amusing and I am good at it, but I just want to know with some degree of certainty where she is. And it seems she will not give that to me.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Harken Banks said:


> I have talked probably ad nauseum. I don't need to talk. It doesn't help me. It's amusing and I am good at it, but I just want to know with some degree of certainty where she is. And it seems she will not give that to me.


Yes I understand that. But you didn't talk about your OWN feelings and pain around the infidelity? 

Or just about what SHE should be doing, or not doing?

You need to talk about YOU, not her.

If you can't do that, then you are like so many, focussed on the other, rather than expressing your own feelings and hurt.


----------



## Harken Banks

Harken Banks said:


> I don't think she did. I'll check the machine. She is not very good about responding promptly and refuses electronic communication. So the call goes to voicemail at her office, which she visits a couple days a week. But if she is on vacation, I wouldn't know. I will call again this morning.


So Deb called Tuesday night while we were all out at soccer practice and the like. Chipper and positive as always. She had in fact been away and asked me to call back to get on the schedule, which is a bit freer now as her kids have returned to college. I'll talk to AMU about times.


----------



## Harken Banks

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Yes I understand that. But you didn't talk about your OWN feelings and pain around the infidelity?
> 
> Or just about what SHE should be doing, or not doing?
> 
> You need to talk about YOU, not her.
> 
> If you can't do that, then you are like so many, focussed on the other, rather than expressing your own feelings and hurt.


I think I have explored this pretty thoroughly. As the way I feel about it changes I go back and see that I had some of the elevations wrong. Or that the landscape has eroded. I don't think she wants to hear any more about my hurt and I don't blame her. I really just want us to agree on what we are going to do.


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Harken Banks said:


> I think I have explored this pretty thoroughly. As the way I feel about it changes I go back and see that I had some of the elevations wrong. Or that the landscape has eroded. I don't think she wants to hear any more about my hurt and I don't blame her. I really just want us to agree on what we are going to do.


Sorry. I haven't got a clue about what you mean by "I had some of the elevations wrong". 

But if you genuinely believe that she doesn't want to hear about your hurt and you don't blame her, then why prolong all this?

Why do you need her to drop the final curtain?

If she were here posting, I would ask her the same thing if, as you say, she is not interested in your feelings.


----------



## NoChoice

Many people on here have commented about the fact that the two parties involved in this thread are both lawyers. As I’ve read, I can see how having been taught and trained to argue to win, without regard to truth, fairness and right and wrong has played out in these posts. So this raises a question in my mind. Many on here, myself included, are “arguing” the case for the Bank’s marriage to survive and become a healthy, happy, warm and inviting atmosphere wherein your four daughters can learn about life and love and gain the ability to create and maintain the same when their time comes to raise their families. In addition to that, a nurturing place where two lone souls can find security, strength, solace and a respite from the stresses and onslaughts of life. What is it that you two are “arguing” for exactly? What is the goal of winning your respective “arguments”? Several years now and this “case” drags on with no resolution. Who wins in this scenario?

As lawyers, HB has argued his case, presented his evidence and put forth a compelling argument. Likewise, AMU has argued her case, put forth her evidence and also presented a compelling argument. However, in this “Banks vs. Life” case who does that leave to argue the Families case? Your daughters? I dare say that they have neither the skill nor the training necessary to argue against two seasoned attorneys nor do they posses the financial reserves to retain counsel that does. So where does that leave them? The two people tasked with the job of protecting and defending their family are so caught up in their own personal little power struggle against one another that the fate of the family is left to chance? I find this unconscionable and so should the two of you. Your skills as legal counsel are no doubt critical to your success whether in a courtroom or at a bargaining table but they have proven to be of little use in securing the health and well-being of your family. Therefore, I would like to direct my next statements to HB the husband and father and to AMU the wife and mother and NOT to their legal counterparts.

Often I see advice given here in which the poster is told that in order to possibly save their marriage they must be willing to lose it. They are advised to implement the 180 technique and fain indifference to their spouse. I would like to propose a different approach that I will call the 360 technique. Instead of turning away and acting as if you don’t care what happens, I suggest that you turn your life completely around, refocus on your spouse and act as though you do care about them more than anything in this world. This approach presumes that both of you want this marriage to work and after the years of posts and all of the negative you have both endured, the fact that you are still “together” compels me to believe that you do.

So then may I suggest this. I would like each of you to get a pencil and paper and go into a secluded room, just the two of you. Now I want you to look each other directly in the eyes and ask each other two questions. Answer honestly and accurately. The correct answers to these questions will be provided at the end of this post. Question 1: What are you willing to sacrifice for our family? Once asked, each of you make a list of all the things you are willing to give up for your family. Now, again looking each other straight in the eye. Question 2: What are you willing to sacrifice our family for? Now make a list of all the things that each of you is willing to give up your family in order to achieve. Now once the lists are completed, gather your daughters together and tell them this; Your Mom and Dad have made a list of the things that we are prepared to sacrifice in order to keep our family together. We have also listed the things that are more important to us than this family and that we are prepared to sacrifice this family for in order to obtain. Then read them the list and explain the items to your daughters, answering any questions that they may have so they can at least have some understanding of where they stand in the eyes of their parents. Now that everyone has a good understanding of the dynamics of this family, proceed as you deem prudent. 

Obviously, I would not want your daughters exposed to any items on the list under question 2, do you? Well whether you realize it or not you are exposing them to it every day. Maybe in a less direct way than what I proposed, then again maybe not but either way they are being exposed to it each day this continues. The sad part is that the damage this may be inflicting may not be realized for years, only manifesting itself when they enter relationships and start their families. All actions have consequences and all adults have to accept the responsibility for their actions and any resultant consequences. What is so tragically sad is that ofttimes those who depend on us for their life lessons also pay the price for our actions.

Okay, you can go back into lawyer mode now and as a lawyer I have one final appeal. Not for the sake of your ego, nor your pride, nor your selfish demands but rather for the sake of the Bank’s family I implore each of you to search deep inside yourself and ask yourself again the questions I had you ask each other before. If you have items under question 2 then examine them closely and be absolutely sure they are as valuable as you have given them credit to be. If they are then so be it. But if you both have the correct answer to question 2 then summon every ounce of strength from deep inside you, combining your strength if necessary, so that each of you can overcome your selfishness, overcome your doubts and fears, overcome your stubbornness, overcome your pain and FIX THIS! Thank you for your time and I sincerely wish you the very best.

Answers to questions 1 and 2 above.

Question 1: Everything

Question 2: Nothing (A blank paper is also acceptable)


----------



## Harken Banks

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Sorry. I haven't got a clue about what you mean by "I had some of the elevations wrong".
> 
> But if you genuinely believe that she doesn't want to hear about your hurt and you don't blame her, then why prolong all this?
> 
> Why do you need her to drop the final curtain?
> 
> If she were here posting, I would ask her the same thing if, as you say, she is not interested in your feelings.


What I meant was analogy, probably pretty poor, that followed the first sentence that fell from my fingers about exploration. I started thinking cartography. And thought it was apt. Everything is still there but much less dramatic. Like the Appalachains after a few hundred million years of weather. I am told the Tetons once towered 30,000 feet over Idaho instead of their present 7.


----------



## Harken Banks

I don't think she is not interested. I think she may have a hard time escaping her own prism. We all do. Anyway, that is not what I need now. I thought it was once, but it isn't anymore. I believe we can grow together. If that is what we want. I think that is just the sort of thing you do if it is what you want to do and talking about it doesn't help. 

So, I am reminded of another Carver title. Why does that guy keep coming up?


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Harken Banks said:


> What I meant was analogy, probably pretty poor, that followed the first sentence that fell from my fingers about exploration. I started thinking cartography. And thought it was apt. Everything is still there but much less dramatic. Like the Appalachains after a few hundred million years of weather. I am told the Tetons once towered 30,000 feet over Idaho instead of their present 7.


Ok. You are good HB. 

But with an apparent literary sleight of hand and very cleverly, you didn't answer my question.



> Why do you need her to drop the final curtain?


If you don't want to answer then SAY you don't. I am here "talking" to you because I care about you, AMU and your girls and I don't even know you.

At least give me the courtesy of answering a question, or telling me directly that you do not wish to answer.



Harken Banks said:


> I don't think she is not interested. I think she may have a hard time escaping her own prism. We all do. Anyway, that is not what I need now. I thought it was once, but it isn't anymore. I believe we can grow together. If that is what we want.


Fair enough.

Anyway, it's getting late here, so I'm signing off for the night.


----------



## Harken Banks

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> Ok. You are good HB.
> 
> But with an apparent literary sleight of hand and very cleverly, you didn't answer my question.
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't want to answer then SAY you don't. I am here "talking" to you because I care about you, AMU and your girls and I don't even know you.
> 
> At least give me the courtesy of answering a question, or telling me directly that you do not wish to answer.
> Fair enough.
> 
> Anyway, it's getting late here, so I'm signing off for the night.


I want what I want and she knows what I want. I'm OK with not getting that thing that I want. It was hard to get to the point of being able to say that. But that is where I am. It takes nothing away from my love for my wife and wish for our family.

It's not entirely up to me. And there are other things I want too. But only if I cannot have what I want.


----------



## Chaparral

New drug for 'mild alcoholics' drinking two glasses of wine a night - Telegraph

I think this is a bit enlightening from across the pond.


----------



## Harken Banks

Very much to the chagrin of my wife, it seems I am stronger than the drink.


----------



## bfree

Just checking in to say I'm thinking of you today and hope everything is okay.


----------



## Harken Banks

bfree said:


> Just checking in to say I'm thinking of you today and hope everything is okay.


Thank you. That is very much appreciated. I have not much to report other than a lot of work ahead of me and wonderful family and friends.


----------



## Roselyn

Harken Banks said:


> I have not much to report other than a lot of work ahead of me and wonderful family and friends.


It's good to see your update that you have a positive outlook in your life. Wish you the best, Harken.


----------



## bfree

Harken Banks said:


> Thank you. That is very much appreciated. I have not much to report other than a lot of work ahead of me and wonderful family and friends.


God bless you and your family HB and happy holidays. You are and will remain on my prayer list.


----------



## GTdad

Harken Banks said:


> Thank you. That is very much appreciated. I have not much to report other than a lot of work ahead of me and wonderful family and friends.


Just remember, it could always be worse. Like being two-thirds of the way through a three week trial in front of a federal judge who reminds you of the meanest elementary school teacher you ever had and a collection of witnesses you want to repeatedly taser.

And apologies for using your thread to vent my own particular spleen, even if it make me feel better.


----------



## Harken Banks

In the end, it is not that I was angry or hurt, though I was both. It is that she is not who I thought she was. That is a realization though slow dawning and when emotion leaves the room cannot be unchanged.


----------



## turnera

Who is she?


----------



## Harken Banks

turnera said:


> Who is she?


Her own person, and I respect that. I did not ever imagine that the person I married was capable of all of this. But I see that is so.


----------



## Harken Banks

When I was very young I wandered by the adult table at a gathering in my home and heard someone whose insight I respect very much say "People don't change." The context may have been different, but I believe that to be true.


----------



## turnera

Are you ok?


----------



## Ikaika

Harken Banks said:


> Her own person, and I respect that. I did not ever imagine that the person I married was capable of all of this. But I see that is so.




I know you and share very little in common in this forum. And feel free to tell me to **** off. But, are you being your own person... are you still self medicating with alcohol? I really do care. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Harken Banks

It is interesting. I went to rehab in the Caribbean to take a little time off and regain perspective. It was a blast. It was an executive program so the deal was I could work when I had to. Body surfing, tennis, basketball (which I suck at), baseball, and soccer. And some good time to discuss and think about things. I liked it very much. I was with some very good and interesting people. In all, I think I was about five months without alcohol. I was warned that I was going back into the same storm. We'll see. I have to figure this out. Maybe I should move permanently to an island in the sun. Next time I will bring my clubs.


----------



## Ikaika

Harken Banks said:


> It is interesting. I went to rehab in the Caribbean to take a little time off and regain perspective. It was a blast. It was an executive program so the deal was I could work when I had to. Body surfing, tennis, basketball (which I suck at), baseball, and soccer. And some good time to discuss and think about things. I liked it very much. I was with some very good and interesting people. In all, I think I was about five months without alcohol. I was warned that I was going back into the same storm. We'll see. I have to figure this out. Maybe I should move permanently to an island in the sun. Next time I will bring my clubs.




This is awesome... E Komo mai


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## pidge70

IMO, people can change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Unfortunately, sometimes people haven't actually changed at all. You just finally see them for who they really are.


----------



## Harken Banks

pidge70 said:


> IMO, people can change. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Unfortunately, sometimes people haven't actually changed at all. You just finally see them for who they really are.


It is character, which generally does not change. I think most people are basically good, by their own lights. Character, I think, is immutable. This is observation, not condemnation. You are very insightful and I hope things are good with you and your husband. Two very smart and intuitive people. I don't think he likes me much which tells me he may have good instincts.


----------



## Ikaika

Harken Banks said:


> It is character, which generally does not change. I think most people are basically good, by their own lights. Character, I think, is immutable. This is observation, not condemnation. You are very insightful and I hope things are good with you and your husband. Two very smart and intuitive people. I don't think he likes me much which tells me he may have good instincts.




Likability is over rated. If I were obsessed with being liked and saying was pleased everyone I would have quit my profession a long time ago and most certainly never journeyed into any of the social media platforms. 

I always like to think that character and demeanor are best witnessed when an individual is confronted with personal challenges and made to choose a path. I do agree with your assessment. 

Just stay sober, please. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Harken Banks

Harken Banks said:


> It is character, which generally does not change. I think most people are basically good, by their own lights. Character, I think, is immutable. This is observation, not condemnation. You are very insightful and I hope things are good with you and your husband. Two very smart and intuitive people. I don't think he likes me much which tells me he may have good instincts.


I think I had this wrong. Joe was always quite kind to me. He even helped me with advice on grilling a turkey. I had the characters here mixed up.


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## Harken Banks

But to engage, who here have I lectured or schooled? I am happy to start with you.


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## Harken Banks

OK. Some deleted posts, so now for continuity and lack of context, I think I have to delete some of mine.


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## Harken Banks

I cannot find the delete. My eyes are really bad when my lenses are not in. Really bad. I cannot even see the screen. There was someone here I think but he seems not to be now.


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## EleGirl

Harken Banks said:


> OK. Some deleted posts, so now for continuity and lack of context, I think I have to delete some of mine.


Yes, I deleted a post that were insulting to the OP and responses to it.

Please respond to the OP and not fight between yourselves.


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## Harken Banks

EleGirl said:


> Yes, I deleted a post that were insulting to the OP and responses to it.
> 
> Please respond to the OP and not fight between yourselves.


I am fine with that even as I do not understand it. The Mods here are great.


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## Chaparral

It looks like five years since you started this thread. I wonder about you often and am still wondering how things are going and how are the girls. My son has gone to and finished college since this thread started, amazing.


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## Lostinthought61

Harken, how is the sobriety coming a long? And forgive me I lost a bit of track on your story did you end up divorcing your wife? Best


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## Harken Banks

We remain married. Congrats, Chap, on the graduation. Sober was OK. I may try it again. There is not much I do in moderation. The girls are all good.


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## bandit.45

Harken Banks said:


> We remain married.


You are a better man than I Gunga Din.


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## Harken Banks

bandit.45 said:


> You are a better man than I Gunga Din.


I would not say so. Different circumstances. You can't really shut the whole thing down with 4 young girls. I admire how you handled it all. There is much of which I am not proud. Also, you were the one who told me things were not right. I could not see it clearly. I still try not to. I am in your debt.


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## Marc878

You started this foray way back in 2012.

How's the state of your marriage and AMU?


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## Harken Banks

Marc878 said:


> You started this foray way back in 2012.
> 
> How's the state of your marriage and AMU?


It is not excellently great. It's OK. We avoid each other as much as possible. It helps preserve what little is left of peace. We are both focused on the girls.


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## Ikaika

Harken Banks said:


> Sober was OK. I may try it again. There is not much I do in moderation.




This is unfortunate to hear. I hope you try it again sooner than later. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Harken Banks

Ikaika said:


> This is unfortunate to hear. I hope you try it again sooner than later.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


I have been thinking more and more about a place in the islands. It is negative 10F here and with the wind estimated by the Weather Channel as negative 30. How can you not drink in that weather? And I have to be on the hill 7 hours tomorrow. Just like today. You get so cold you cannot think straight. I should have been a surfer. I suppose it is not too late.


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## Harken Banks

Harken Banks said:


> I have been thinking more and more about a place in the islands. It is negative 10F here and with the wind estimated by the Weather Channel as negative 30. How can you not drink in that weather? And I have to be on the hill 7 hours tomorrow. Just like today. You get so cold you cannot think straight. I should have been a surfer. I suppose it is not too late.


I did a month in rehab in the Caribbean. Oh my gosh. I was so happy there. Coffee in the morning, some tree fruit, and fried fish in the evening. Plus the company was great. It was an executive deal (somewhat negotiated because I said I would not come if I could not work and respond to clients around the clock) where I had pretty much as much time to work as I wanted. But I surfed, played baseball, soccer, tennis, and basketball (which I suck at). Golf was an option, but I did not send my clubs and did not want to play with random clubs. Very sadly one of my friends from that beach vacation died a little more than a week ago. I liked her very much. Oh, I did yoga too. That was awesome. The guy who lead the class is a surfer who took up yoga because he thought it might help his surfing. Then he moved to India. He was born in Germany and has started yoga schools around the globe. He is awesome. And the yoga place sat over the ocean. I would ask him to be my roommate, but I asked my brother first.


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## Gabriel

Wow, I only visit here very rarely these days, but Harken Banks is a blast from the past. Seems that some things don't change. Hope you eventually get to your happy place HB.


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## Harken Banks

Gabriel said:


> Wow, I only visit here very rarely these days, but Harken Banks is a blast from the past. Seems that some things don't change. Hope you eventually get to your happy place HB.


That is in the post above.


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## Marc878

Harken Banks said:


> It is not excellently great. It's OK. We avoid each other as much as possible. It helps preserve what little is left of peace. We are both focused on the girls.


You know iF that goes on long enough there'll be nothing left if there is anything now.

Sorry you're both in this position.


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## MattMatt

Harken Banks said:


> I have been thinking more and more about a place in the islands. It is negative 10F here and with the wind estimated by the Weather Channel as negative 30. How can you not drink in that weather? And I have to be on the hill 7 hours tomorrow. Just like today. You get so cold you cannot think straight. I should have been a surfer. I suppose it is not too late.


Drink hot tea, instead! 

I've been sober since last February. Which surprised me, but there you are.


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## Harken Banks

MattMatt said:


> Drink hot tea, instead!
> 
> I've been sober since last February. Which surprised me, but there you are.


I like that. I like tea very much. I had coffee and tea this morning because it was super ****ing cold out. One of the very good insights from my stint in rehab was when you leave you are going back into the very same fire. A bungalow on the beach. Change of scenery and outlook. It may not change everything, but at least my toes won't be frozen and I can dig them into the sand.


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## MattMatt

We actually had snow. For the first time in about four years!


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## pidge70

Your marriage sounds somewhat like mine and Joe's. It truly is a miserable existence.

I kinda wish I still drank. Unfortunately, kidney disease shot that option all to Hell.


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## Harken Banks

pidge70 said:


> Your marriage sounds somewhat like mine and Joe's. It truly is a miserable existence.
> 
> I kinda wish I still drank. Unfortunately, kidney disease shot that option all to Hell.


Sorry. It is just keeping the car on the road.


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## Ikaika

Harken Banks said:


> I have been thinking more and more about a place in the islands. It is negative 10F here and with the wind estimated by the Weather Channel as negative 30. How can you not drink in that weather? And I have to be on the hill 7 hours tomorrow. Just like today. You get so cold you cannot think straight. I should have been a surfer. I suppose it is not too late.




It’s 5:35pm and 77F. E Komo mai 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Harken Banks

Ikaika said:


> It’s 5:35pm and 77F. E Komo mai
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Pretty close to perfect. I want to bring my cars and be in easy travel distance for family. I love your islands. More than any I have visited. But they are half the world away. More homework and thinking to do. As always, thank you.


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## Ikaika

Harken Banks said:


> Pretty close to perfect. I want to bring my cars and be in easy travel distance for family. I love your islands. More than any I have visited. But they are half the world away. More homework and thinking to do. As always, thank you.




O’ahu is too crowded for me. I can’t convince my wife to move to Kaua’i (home island) when we retire. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Harken Banks

Ikaika said:


> O’ahu is too crowded for me. I can’t convince my wife to move to Kaua’i (home island) when we retire.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I love that island. Also the big island. The big island is my favorite. Maui, of course, but a bit crowded and entirely tourist country. I have a friend from Molokai. He is now on O'ahu. Has been for 30 years. I have not been. The leprosy thing wigs me out a bit. We have been travelling the country a lot the last few years. Some other countries as well. My wife and the girls play the license plate game. Hawaii is a tough score, but we always find it. How does that happen? And it is invariably some rusted out beater that probably should have been pushed off the ship. It is amusing the things people become attached to.


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## happy as a clam

I don’t get this thread, or this marriage. At all. The whole situation sounds like torturous misery.


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## Rick Blaine

Wow. Read through this thread and feel as though I just read the NPR edition of the Jerry Springer Show.


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## pidge70

happy as a clam said:


> I don’t get this thread, or this marriage. At all. The whole situation sounds like torturous misery.


Unfortunately, I can relate all too well.


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## MattMatt

pidge70 said:


> Unfortunately, I can relate all too well.


I love my wife dearly, but her Asperger's syndrome can make our life a living hell, sometimes.


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## bandit.45

Harken Banks said:


> I would not say so. Different circumstances. You can't really shut the whole thing down with 4 young girls. I admire how you handled it all. There is much of which I am not proud. Also, you were the one who told me things were not right. I could not see it clearly. I still try not to. I am in your debt.


We're all the wounded leading the wounded. No debt incurred. I'm glad you have at least come to some parity with your wife.


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## bandit.45

MattMatt said:


> Drink hot tea, instead!
> *
> I've been sober since last February*. Which surprised me, but there you are.


Good for you Matt!


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## pidge70

MattMatt said:


> I love my wife dearly, but her Asperger's syndrome can make our life a living hell, sometimes.


Little Joe was diagnosed with Aspergers. It's hard.


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## Harken Banks

bandit.45 said:


> We're all the wounded leading the wounded. No debt incurred. I'm glad you have at least come to some parity with your wife.


The race to the bottom school of relationship advice. I am glad you got a kick out of it. In fairness, we were at the time getting divorced. I think I had a pass.


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## bandit.45

Harken Banks said:


> The race to the bottom school of relationship advice. I am glad you got a kick out of it. In fairness, we were at the time getting divorced. I think I had a pass.


No I didn't get a kick out of it. Not one bit. I don't like seeing any marriage go kablooey; but, even more, I hate seeing a good man treated poorly.


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## bandit.45

pidge70 said:


> Little Joe was diagnosed with Aspergers. It's hard.


How is Joe's drinking?


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## pidge70

bandit.45 said:


> How is Joe's drinking?


He hardly drinks at all. Mostly due to lack of time. I still hate when he does though.


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## Harken Banks

pidge70 said:


> Little Joe was diagnosed with Aspergers. It's hard.


Best wishes. Some of the most brilliant and accomplished people I know are on the spectrum.


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## pidge70

Harken Banks said:


> Best wishes. Some of the most brilliant and accomplished people I know are on the spectrum.


It could be worse. He's extremely intelligent and artistic. It's his emotional health that needs help.


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## Harken Banks

pidge70 said:


> It could be worse. He's extremely intelligent and artistic. It's his emotional health that needs help.


That is where the rub is, right? I have been with people rocking in their chairs with agitation in a board room and me not knowing if they were going to start hitting their head on the table or against the wall next. But they were charming. And ridiculously successful with good marriages and families. No one in this community has much to show for success with social skills and certainly our emotional states are in disarray. Best wishes to little Joe. May he not ever find himself in a place like this.


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## turnera

Quick T/J, since I never see him anymore: bandit, how you doing? Did you survive the flood? It sounded like you were picking a house right in the path of the flood.

As for Aspberger's, we have a 'nephew' who has it; he had a rough time growing up, but he's in college now and seems to be adjusting well enough. For those of you dealing with it, there's a great book written by a man with Aspberger's. Good stuff.
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/th...voDRt-0VsyXYTQXwwv4_Bcm05ZI_KcaAp8sEALw_wcB#/


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## Harken Banks

No worries on the tangents. We are all pretty connected and it is all welcome. All of you have contributed more than me and for that I have always been and remain grateful.


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## Chaparral

Sounds like you may still be coaching your daughters. since my son has quit playing its almost like I have shut down on sports. Can't even get excited about KY basketball any more. The Reds sold all their players etc. Haha

I wish you could have made more progress with your wife but hopefully there are also some happy and uplifting times with her. Maybe that will come as the girls move along to their own futures.


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## Openminded

I wish you peace, HB -- if not now then at some point down the road.


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## JelloBen

In


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## MattMatt

Zombie cat has inspected this thread and determined that it should be closed.


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