# What would you tell him?



## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

H and I are separated. He would still like to reconcile, and I would like to also if things were different, but he just seems clueless and I haven't been able to communicate clearly what the issues are. He asked me yesterday "What's wrong with him." 

Below are the "rules of engagement" that my H has issued to me over the years that I've compiled into a single list (and a few initial Dr. Harley rules.) You don't have to read the whole list, but using this as an example, I'd like to know what you'd say to him if he asked you what's wrong with him. Obviously, perhaps there's nothing wrong with him and it's just me, and I'd be interested in hearing that as well. Just looking for perspective from an objective party.

(1-5 Harley)
1. no disrespectful judgments
2. no angry outbursts
3. no selfish demands
4. no name calling
5. don’t initiate a conversation after 6:30

(6-35 H)
6. don't start a conversation late when H is tired
7. don't carry the discussion late into the "wee hours of the night"
8. don't start the day off with a conversation
9. don't have conversations during lunch, as it’s is supposed to be a relaxing time
10. don't expect him to engage while he's at work as he needs to focus on his job
11. don't ruin the weekend with a conversation
12. keep the duration short
13. don't ambush him when he's not "ready"
14. give him time to get prepared
15. don’t ambush him as soon as he walks in the door, especially after he’s been at work all day
**6-15 = let H initiate the conversation, even though never does

16. let him direct the agenda/format
17. don't expect him to make eye contact while he's "processing"
18. don't “overwhelm him with my intelligence”
19. don't get "ramped up"
20. don't bring up the past
21. don't ask the same question repeatedly
22. be content with whatever his answer, regardless of whether it answers my question or not
23. "I don't know" is an acceptable answer anytime
24. he's not "deep," don't expect him to be
25. don't criticize him in any way
26. don't share a different opinion because it might be taken as a criticism
27. give him time to respond
28. don't re-visit a topic when one of us doesn't have anything new to say
29. don't be put off by his defensiveness
30. don't be put off by his negative body language, seeming lack of interest, distractions, etc.
31. don't interrupt, not even when responding off-topic (rabbit trails)
32. don't point out his love busters
33. accept that he will frequently answer a question with a question
34. only ask questions that can be answered with a yes or no
35. he will step away from the conversation as soon as he begins to experience anger or frustration


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

I"m having a teeny bit of an issue with understanding exactly what you are asking, but it seems like he is a really crappy communicator. If those last things are what he is saying, why do you want to get back with someone like that? A wise woman once told me, "a tiger don't change it's stripes." If he is basically telling you that he wants you to accept him the way he is, he isn't changing stripes. Trying again will result in the same spot you are now, just with more wasted time.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Um, wow...yeah dont bother trying to reconcile with someone who has made it clear that he doesnt even want to talk to you. He has issues.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Were these actually given to you in this kind of list form or are they your interpretation of things that you were told over time?

There's a lot in there that I can agree with, a lot I don't too but if they are your interpretation they might not be exactly "rules" just experiences. 

(ex. 26. don't share a different opinion because it might be taken as a criticism- is that something he said or something he showed? How was the different opinion presented, how was it responded to, etc... too many variables to know) 

You need him to be better at communication, he seems to think you do too (and not all of it is wrong)
Can you both go to MC to help with communication?


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## C3156 (Jun 13, 2012)

I can tell from the list and the fact you have a list, that you have a lot of resentment built up against your stbx with regards to communication.

You can try to go to MC, but unless both of your hearts are really in the place to change, I expect any results to be short lived.

From the outside looking in, I think the best you can say is "Let's see if we can end this marriage amiably." I know, easier said than done.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Why, and I mean really, why does your stbxh want to reconcile/get back together again ? Clearly you don't even like him, let alone love him. What is he afraid of ? Why doesn't he want to go out and find someone who loves him and whom he could love ?

I understand why you don't - you have made that abundantly clear. But what does he think he will get out of this ? From what you say, he doesn't love you, so why ?


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

I don't know why but that list really pissed me off. I'll talk whenever I want. I will have and voice my own opinions. I'm not 'dumbing down" so I don't overwhelm anybody with my intelligence. That whole thing was really aggravating and I wouldn't put up with that kind of crap. Just the fact that there is a list of rules to follow in itself is irritating. I can't talk in the morning, lunchtime, after work, late evening, weekends...wtf? 

I can be respectful, patient, not call names, etc. that's just good manners. The rest of that garbage. Yuck.😡


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Top rant, Giro! 

So good, in fact, it deserves to be made into a list of it's own. Thereafter to be adopted as 'The Rules' 


- 1). I'll talk whenever I want. 


- 2). I will have and voice my own opinions. 


- 3). I'm not 'dumbing down" so I don't overwhelm anybody with my intelligence. 


- 4). Just the fact that there is a list of rules to follow in itself is irritating.

- It's a beginning. Vive la revolución!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Do you know if he is on the Autism/Asperger's spectrum?

It sounds to me as though he might be, in which case I am doubtful you will see much change?


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Thanks for the replies. I was at work so this is the first chance I've had to reply.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Were these actually given to you in this kind of list form or are they your interpretation of things that you were told over time?
> 
> There's a lot in there that I can agree with, a lot I don't too but if they are your interpretation they might not be exactly "rules" just experiences.
> 
> ...


These were not given to me in a list form, I compiled the list to keep track of them all and remind myself what he wanted. I'm not set on the word "rules." I could call them "the parameters I must operate within if I want to have a discussion with my H without incurring his wrath," but that seems a little verbose. In any case, most of the items were given to me verbatim. The ones that weren't verbatim are my summarized definition. For example, #26 originated something like this.
H: I don't appreciate your criticism.
D2D: What criticism?
H: When you said X.
D2D: I said X because you asked me my opinion. How was I criticizing you?
H: (silent pause) You're right, I guess you weren't actually criticizing me, but it made me feel that way.
D2D: How?
H: I don't know.
D2D: Well, I'd like for you to not feel criticized simply because I share my opinion. Can you tell me what I did wrong?
H: Asked and answered. I DON'T KNOW! Stop asking me! You're just going to have to accept that sometimes "I don't know" is a valid answer!
...end of conversation as H walks off angry, repeated in numerous other discussions.

So I admit that I've summarized some of them, but I think the instruction was pretty clear and my summarization pretty accurate. And we've done counseling but it doesn't help because H doesn't do what the counselor tells him to, will say he "forgot."



C3156 said:


> I can tell from the list and the fact you have a list, that you have a lot of resentment built up against your stbx with regards to communication.


 Not sure I get your point, C. Do you understand that these are the requirements that my stbexH has of me? If so, and your issue is that I put it in "list" form, then I must have an unbelievable amount of resentment at work, because I have lists out the wazoo there. In fact, I must even hold resentment for my grocery store, because I carry a list for that, too. Or would it be the food I hold resentment for? Perhaps you misunderstood my post; otherwise, we'll just have to disagree on this.



manfromlamancha said:


> Why, and I mean really, why does your stbxh want to reconcile/get back together again ? Clearly you don't even like him, let alone love him. What is he afraid of ? Why doesn't he want to go out and find someone who loves him and whom he could love ?
> 
> I understand why you don't - you have made that abundantly clear. But what does he think he will get out of this ? From what you say, he doesn't love you, so why ?


 MFL, I'm afraid you're posting this to the wrong person. Last I checked, I don't have the ability to read my stbexH's mind to answer your questions of what he wants or thinks and why. Feel free to ask him, though.

In any case, I appreciate your post, because it presents a perfect example of the sort of abusive response I would get from by stbexH if I questioned the functionality of some of these parameters in building a healthy relationship.



Giro flee said:


> I can't talk in the morning, lunchtime, after work, late evening, weekends...wtf?


 Giro, I don't have your anger at the list, but I do agree with this -- there literally is no time left.



tryingtobebetter said:


> Do you know if he is on the Autism/Asperger's spectrum?
> 
> It sounds to me as though he might be, in which case I am doubtful you will see much change?


He has never been diagnosed as that, but never been tested either. He does not receive well my suggestion that there might be something "clinically wrong" with him, like ADD for example. So I appreciate the suggestion but I won't be passing that one on.



GA HEART said:


> If those last things are what he is saying, why do you want to get back with someone like that?


 I don't and I won't. The condition would be that he changed. I'm doubtful. I only asked because he asked me and I'm spent on trying to explain.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

DaytoDay said:


> Thanks for the replies. I was at work so this is the first chance I've had to reply.
> 
> 
> These were not given to me in a list form, I compiled the list to keep track of them all and remind myself what he wanted. I'm not set on the word "rules." I could call them "the parameters I must operate within if I want to have a discussion with my H without incurring his wrath," but that seems a little verbose. In any case, most of the items were given to me verbatim. The ones that weren't verbatim are my summarized definition. For example, #26 originated something like this.
> ...


With this and the list I still see problems with both of your communication/argument skills. I think if you want to reconcile, and you really don't have to, you'd have to look at your own communication short comings as well and work together. 

Some things on the list I could see as valid (other than Dr. Harley's)


6. don't start a conversation late when H is tired
7. don't carry the discussion late into the "wee hours of the night"
8. don't start the day off with a conversation
11. don't ruin the weekend with a conversation
15. don’t ambush him as soon as he walks in the door, especially after he’s been at work all day

^^ Are these conversations or arguments? If it's arguments, I am the same way, if we have gone around and around with something we both just need to drop it for a while. Don't keep arguing about it all night, don't keep going while your clearly tired and miserable and don't start the day off with a bad mood, bringing back up the topic from the night before.

If this is "How was your day hun? Mine was alright" conversations than I don't agree. 

10. don't expect him to engage while he's at work as he needs to focus on his job
19. don't get "ramped up"
20. don't bring up the past
21. don't ask the same question repeatedly
27. give him time to respond
28. don't re-visit a topic when one of us doesn't have anything new to say
31. don't interrupt, not even when responding off-topic (rabbit trails)

Are all IMO valid or at least areas where you can work on. 

As for 

18. don't “overwhelm him with my intelligence”

Are you "lawyering" him? Trying to trip him up? Badgering him, debating, Asking question after question, talking at him, not with him, etc?

23. "I don't know" is an acceptable answer anytime
and 
D2D: How?
H: I don't know.
D2D: Well, I'd like for you to not feel criticized simply because I share my opinion. Can you tell me what I did wrong?
H: Asked and answered. I DON'T KNOW! Stop asking me! 

I don't know is an answer sometimes. It's Ok. Instead of trying to demand the answer out of him, talk about it further to see if you can work it out together. Sometimes a feeling is just as feeling and you don't know exactly why it's there. 

35. he will step away from the conversation as soon as he begins to experience anger or frustration 

This is also good. Walk away, calm down. Once a conversation turns into anger it's best to just step away until you can discuss it more. Let him walk away, don't follow and continue trying to get him to talk. 


So if you can change some of what he wants and he could change some of what you want, would you want to be with him? Or only if he changes?


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

We'll, when he said he didn't appreciate your criticism, why didn't you just recognize his feelings and apologize? Instead you made it combative! 

You kept pressing him to actually have to PROVE his feelings....


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Revamped said:


> We'll, when he said he didn't appreciate your criticism, why didn't you just recognize his feelings and apologize? Instead you made it combative!
> 
> You kept pressing him to actually have to PROVE his feelings....


What you're describing as "combative," I'm intending to be acquiring an understanding of what I did that hurt his feelings so that I don't do it again. Since I want to avoid doing it again, but still don't know what it is, only that it's somehow related to my sharing a different opinion than his, I've stopped sharing my different opinion.

My stbexH is the opposite of me. If I tell him he did something hurtful, he will immediately apologize, even though he has absolutely no idea what he did or what he's apologizing for, and makes no attempt to understand. So it just keeps happening over and over, and he apologizes over and over. His apologies no longer mean anything to me. 

From my perspective, as the one that keeps getting hurt by the same behavior, I wish he was more "combative." Are you suggesting that I do what he's doing? Maybe he would prefer that.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Wow, this is intense.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

I am suggesting you look at how the conversation went down in flames.

It's not what you said, it's how you said it. At this point in time, you can no longer have a civil conversation with him. You turned unnecessarily aggressive with your "opinion" which, in turn, hurt his feelings. He tries to tell you, you get more combative. He shuts down. The cycle continues. 

Unless you both agree to extensive therapy to curb these tendencies, I don't see a future for you both.

And, things like this carry over into the next relationship if you don't learn the triggers.


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## firebelly1 (Jul 9, 2013)

The list looks overwhelming, but I think it could be worked out in MC. It's about learning some communication skills. Don't think the two of you are going to be able to do it by yourself, but I think it's solvable.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> With this and the list I still see problems with both of your communication/argument skills. I think if you want to reconcile, and you really don't have to, you'd have to look at your own communication short comings as well and work together.
> 
> Some things on the list I could see as valid (other than Dr. Harley's)
> 
> ...


Sometimes they're arguments, sometimes they start out as "how was your day" and turn into an argument, at least back when I used to share a differing opinion. I agree on most of your selections. Unfortunately, you omitted some of his and the combination of all of his leave virtually no time ever. 

He wants me to listen to the Harley radio program, and I do (I don't mind, I like the program.) Last week one day, I initiated a conversation at 6:15pm, knowing I had about 15 minutes. I asked him if he listened to the program. He said he did. I told him that I did too and asked if he wanted to discuss it. He said he did. So he read me his bullet-point notes from the program (quotes, references, etc.) I acknowledged that I had heard each of the points. I waited for him to finish, waited some more, then asked if that was all he wanted to discuss and he said yes. I said okay, thanks, and went about the business of the evening. I made a point not to ask lots of questions, not to interrupt, let him manage the agenda, kept it short, didn't share any thoughts that weren't asked for (he didn't ask for any of mine), etc. Tonight, he told me that my participation pixxed him off, didn't say why. I didn't ask, just said sorry.

I found absolutely no value in the conversation, because I had already heard the radio program in total. I didn't need a review. I have no insight into his personal thoughts. Plus, I got in trouble because I did it wrong, even though I followed his requirements and his agenda.

Is there something I'm supposed to value about this?



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> 10. don't expect him to engage while he's at work as he needs to focus on his job
> 19. don't get "ramped up"
> 20. don't bring up the past
> 21. don't ask the same question repeatedly
> ...


21. "don't ask the same question repeatedly" looks like: 
D2D: "What's your favorite color?"
H: Pizza
D2D: No, I asked what's your favorite COLOR 
Foul and penalty.

27. "give him time to respond" looks like:
D2D: (Shares thought/asks question, waits. After about 5 minutes...) Any thoughts?
H: Oh, no. What am I supposed to be responding to again?

or

D2D: Can you let me know your thoughts on X? It's important.
H: Sure give me a couple days
D2D: (A week later) Any thoughts?
H: No, I haven't thought about it, I forgot.

Again, should I still enjoy/value/desire these discussions with him? I don't, so maybe it's me.




SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> As for
> 
> 18. don't “overwhelm him with my intelligence”
> 
> Are you "lawyering" him? Trying to trip him up? Badgering him, debating, Asking question after question, talking at him, not with him, etc?


Possibly, it's certainly not my intention. If he said something yesterday, and then says the opposite today, I ask for clarification. The fact that I remember both things he said seems to be a problem for him and falls under that category.
Or if I try to negotiate that I get to do the same thing he's doing (rec sport, trip out of town, etc.) also seems to blow up.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> 23. "I don't know" is an acceptable answer anytime
> and
> D2D: How?
> H: I don't know.
> ...


How did I demand the answer? Or how do I "talk about it further" since my attempt to do so wasn't acceptable and deemed "demanding" instead? I thought that's exactly what I was trying to do.




SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> 35. he will step away from the conversation as soon as he begins to experience anger or frustration
> 
> This is also good. Walk away, calm down. Once a conversation turns into anger it's best to just step away until you can discuss it more. Let him walk away, don't follow and continue trying to get him to talk.
> 
> So if you can change some of what he wants and he could change some of what you want, would you want to be with him? Or only if he changes?


I don't follow him. Nor does he come back to continue the discussion after he cools down. Nothing is ever resolved. Thus the separation.

I can change, I do it all the time (he would agree.) He doesn't change (he would agree), because change is hard for him. I guess I'd say at this point, I've done enough changing for him and now it's his turn. Until he actually changes something, I'm not going to do anymore. When there's some momentum on his part, I'll consider it.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Revamped said:


> I am suggesting you look at how the conversation went down in flames.
> 
> It's not what you said, it's how you said it. At this point in time, you can no longer have a civil conversation with him. You turned unnecessarily aggressive with your "opinion" which, in turn, hurt his feelings. He tries to tell you, you get more combative. He shuts down. The cycle continues.
> 
> ...


So, this is very interesting. I am feeling the exact same anxiety that I feel with my stbexH in this exchange with you. I don't know what you're trying to tell me. I posed one set of questions to you already, but I don't feel like you answered my questions and honestly still don't understand how I'm being combative. And I don't know how to get an understanding without asking further questions. But as I'm sensitive to my actions at the moment and trying to interpret and apply what you said, my anxiety is increasing because I feel like more questions might somehow be interpreted as being "unnecessarily aggressive."

To avoid that foul, my inclination is to not ask anything and just say "okay." So then that means I have no idea what to do differently except leave the discussion. No aggression, no combat, but also no understanding, and in my stbexH case, no relationship.

Can anyone spell this out to me as if a 2yo? I'm really not getting it and I want to.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

When you feel this anxiety, what physical changes are you experiencing? Do you tend to talk faster, with hopes of getting your point across in the shortest period of time? Or do you take a minute, reflect on what's said, then speak?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

What was the Dr. Harley episode about? Could you have started some kind of conversation out of it, like he reads a bullet point and you say something like "How do you feel we do when it comes to that?" 



DaytoDay said:


> How did I demand the answer? Or how do I "talk about it further" since my attempt to do wasn't acceptable and deemed "demanding" instead? I thought that's exactly what I was trying to do.


IMO 
H: (silent pause) You're right, I guess you weren't actually criticizing me, but it made me feel that way.

Is good communication. He's admitting his wrong but also stated his feeling. 

The "I was sharing my opinion" and "how?" read to me more hostile and defensive. 
Instead of validating his feeling, you questioned it. Maybe it was the way you expressed your opinion, your tone or your body language. If he senses that getting into it is just going to start _another _fight, he'll just want to avoid it. 

If he had said for example "it's the tone you used, it was demeaning" 
Would you accept that answer or continue to debate why it wasn't? 

Could you have used something like "Sorry sweetie, I didn't mean to be criticizing. Was it what I said, or how I said it that bothered you?"

As for the other stuff, I'm just not sure what's going on but communication is just way off.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Revamped said:


> When you feel this anxiety, what physical changes are you experiencing? Do you tend to talk faster, with hopes of getting your point across in the shortest period of time? Or do you take a minute, reflect on what's said, then speak?


I completely stop talking and try to think of how to phrase what I want to say without being offensive, or in this case, overly-aggressive and combatant. (Was that being a lawyer?)

I just typed this three different ways. Then I reread your post above and made a change. Then reread your post again and my response. Made another change. I think now I can hit "post."


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

What I'm seeing is that you're a very decisive woman, with strong view points that could be considered as overly aggressive. Has there been a point in your life that you were less than self assured, but now make use of a perceived character flaw?


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> What was the Dr. Harley episode about? Could you have started some kind of conversation out of it, like he reads a bullet point and you say something like "How do you feel we do when it comes to that?"


My first thought is that I could, physically, of course, but honestly the thought of doing so is triggering even more anxiety. I have done so in the past, it hasn't gone well. I just know that that's asking him questions. That's bad. I can also hear him responding, "I don't know."



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> IMO
> H: (silent pause) You're right, I guess you weren't actually criticizing me, but it made me feel that way.
> 
> Is good communication. He's admitting his wrong but also stated his feeling.
> ...


I guess I would be debating it by your definition. My automatic response to your comment is "What body language? What tone?" It sounds like that would be defensive and hostile. To me, it's just trying to know what you're talking about so I know what to fix. If you told me I had something on my face, I'd ask what/where and try to fix it. And then I'd ask if I got it. Somehow, that same sort of interaction with my stbexH is bad.

Since I have no idea what it is, and feel like I can't ask without it being interpreted badly, I would just not ask and pull away. Eventually, there wouldn't be anything left anyway.



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Could you have used something like "Sorry sweetie, I didn't mean to be criticizing. Was it what I said, or how I said it that bothered you?"
> 
> As for the other stuff, I'm just not sure what's going on but communication is just way off.


Again, I would expect him to say "I don't know." He says it a lot.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Revamped said:


> What I'm seeing is that you're a very decisive woman, with strong view points that could be considered as overly aggressive. Has there been a point in your life that you were less than self assured, but now make use of a perceived character flaw?


Decisive or INdecisive? I told you it took me four edits to finally settle on a response to you. And the anxiety? I forget the personality study I did, but being indecisive was one of my faults. Analysis-paralysis and all.

Was that argumentative? To me, I was just trying to provide you with the information you were seeking, but saw a misconception in your perception of me. Combatant? Defensive? Should I just have said no or yes?

And I don't know what character flaw you're referring to but I'm afraid to ask more questions.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Oh, you're very decisive...

Your hesitance comes from not wanting to have to debate your reasoning. So you rewrite or ask more questions in order to make sure that doesn't happen.

But it's backfiring on you.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

I perceive "the list" as a tedious example of mental masturbation. 

I doubt there's any person on this planet who's worth going through so much crap to reconcile with.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

This discussion regarding stbexH accusing me of criticizing him...

As I think this through in detail, I'm recalling the progression of this very type of conversation over the years. In the very early years, it went like this:

H: I don't appreciate your criticism.
D2D: What criticism?
H: When you said X.
D2D: I said X because you asked me my opinion. How was I criticizing you?
H: (silent pause) You're right, I guess you weren't actually criticizing me, but it made me feel that way.
D2D: Well, I'd like for you to not feel criticized simply because I share my opinion. Can you tell me what I did wrong?
H: You didn't do anything wrong. I just reacted badly because you had a better idea than I did and it made me feel stupid.
D2D: Would you rather I not share my opinion?
H: No, of course not. You had a good idea and I appreciate it.

We've had this similar exchange many different ways. It always starts out with his accusing me of something. I'm a very conscientious person and I want to know when I'm acting badly, so this will always trigger a response in me. I can't imagine just saying sorry and going about my day. If it's someone I care about, I need to know what I'm doing and address it, so I ask.

We had an incident this last week. StbexH walked in on a conversation I was having with our son about his grades and schooling and his future. I was doing fine without stbex. I didn't exclude him, but I didn't invite him to join either. I just continued as we were and stbex decided to join in and listen, not saying much. A few days later, he accused me of "overriding his agenda for the evening." I asked what he was talking about, and he referenced the discussion with our son. I said I didn't do anything with his agenda, that he opted to join in on his own. And that if he wanted to be pixxed at anyone for axing his agenda, then he could get pixxed at his son because his grades were the topic of conversation.

Wow, this exchange was definitely combatant. I can feel my blood boiling just thinking about it. And I know why. I'm sick and tired of my stbexH blaming me for anything in his life that doesn't go the way he wants it to. He has done it since the very early years, even on things I had absolutely no involvement in. When I pursued what he was talking about, he would realize that it was a false accusation. At least early on, he would admit it and acknowledge it as his own shortcoming. Not anymore. Not for years. Now I get "I don't know." I think he's really pixxed at himself but is tired of me "winning?" Being more responsible? Being smarter? Just tired of admitting his many faults? I have no idea. But I do know that I'm tired of him making me feel like a horrible person when I haven't done anything wrong. 

I can honestly say that when the accusation is first made and I ask him what he's talking about, I have no animosity toward him at all, only confusion. The minute the false accusation comes out, my hackles are up.

So now, when he accuses me of something and I ask him what he's talking about, and he realizes he did it again because he can't come up with an answer and knows I'll be pixxed, he throws up the "I don't know" wall, hoping I'll drop it because he's made that one of the rules. And when I don't, he has his excuse/justification for getting pixxed and storming off, leaving me bruised by his accusation and anger, and himself unscathed. Meanwhile, his habit of blaming me for anything and everything continues unchecked.

I'm thinking this through as I type this. I don't know if it's right, and it's late and I'm tired so I don't even know if perhaps I'm typing gibberish. But I just wanted to get it down while it was fresh. I'll revisit what I wrote in the morning after I've had some sleep.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Revamped said:


> Oh, you're very decisive...
> 
> Your hesitance comes from not wanting to have to debate your reasoning. So you rewrite or ask more questions in order to make sure that doesn't happen.
> 
> But it's backfiring on you.


Well I don't how to convince myself that what you're saying has more credence than what I'm feeling/thinking.

And I love a good debate, so I would never avoid it. Didn't you previously accuse me of being combatant? Maybe we just disagree.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

manfromlamancha said:


> Why, and I mean really, why does your stbxh want to reconcile/get back together again ? Clearly you don't even like him, let alone love him. What is he afraid of ? Why doesn't he want to go out and find someone who loves him and whom he could love ?
> 
> I understand why you don't - you have made that abundantly clear. But what does he think he will get out of this ? From what you say, he doesn't love you, so why ?





DaytoDay said:


> ….
> 
> MFL, I'm afraid you're posting this to the wrong person. Last I checked, I don't have the ability to read my stbexH's mind to answer your questions of what he wants or thinks and why. Feel free to ask him, though.
> 
> ...


Its interesting that you think my questions were abusive. They certainly were not intended to be. The point I was making was that you decided to separate from your husband with a view to divorcing him because you did not like him anymore, leave alone love him. Then you pose the question as to what you should tell him. My questions were meant to help me understand why you thought he was hanging on to this marriage so as to help you with what to tell him. e.g. was he afraid of being alone when it comes to finances ? Then you could tell him something appropriate.

Instead you took it as somebody challenging you. Now I noticed something very similar in your reactions with Revamped!

You might want to look into what Revamped is trying to tell you. It might help you too.

Anyway, good luck with whatever it is you are trying to achieve. My advice is still to let your husband go (whatever you decide to "tell him") so that he can get on with his life and you can get on with yours. He deserves to find someone to love and who loves him, just as you do.


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## aaroncj (Nov 10, 2011)

D2D:

Having read through your posts and the responses, I have a few thoughts/observations/questions.

First, it appears that some of the items on the list have been explicitly expressed while others have been inferred by you through your experiences. In either case, your stbx husband's list seems terribly one-sided. Were any of the items on the list ever "discussed" or negotiated--or have they just appeared over time? 

Second, even with these rules, your stbxh seems to be incredibly passive-aggressive in his communication. Has he been passive-aggressive in other aspects of your relationship as well?

Third, has he always been this difficult to communicate with or did it develop after marriage? If he's always been this way, why after marriage, has it been relatively recently? 

My sense is that you are frustrated because his behavior seems irrational and you don't know how to "fix" the situation--or him.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

DaytoDay said:


> Decisive or INdecisive? I told you it took me four edits to finally settle on a response to you. And the anxiety? I forget the personality study I did, but being indecisive was one of my faults. Analysis-paralysis and all.
> 
> Was that argumentative? To me, I was just trying to provide you with the information you were seeking, but saw a misconception in your perception of me. Combatant? Defensive? Should I just have said no or yes?
> 
> And I don't know what character flaw you're referring to but I'm afraid to ask more questions.


Ah, there it is right there. The little "dance around the question". I gave a short, two sentence paragraph. One was a statement, the other a question. You cherry picked your answer to include everything - but failed to actually answer the direct question. 

I can spot that character flaw a mile away. 

So, I'll try again...

Has there ever been a period in your life that you were less than self assured that now, you use that as a defense to get a strict, to the point conversation?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You do realize that your husband is insecure and immature, don't you? The whole 'don't talk to me unless you want to tell me that I'm the cat's pajamas' and 'don't expect me to keep my word and actually think about a subject and get back to you because I don't want to be bothered by the mundane things in life - that's what you're for'.

In short, he doesn't want to be a real partner in marriage. He wants to be idolized and taken care of. And, being the center of attention (you derailed his plans for the evening by talking to your son about his grades). How dare you?

Not sure you have much to work with in reviving your marriage. Some people just aren't meant to be together.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Revamped said:


> Has there ever been a period in your life that you were less than self assured that now, you use that as a defense to get a strict, to the point conversation?


Yes, of course there was a time in my life when I was less than self-assured. Being a teenager comes first to mind.
No, I do not use that as a defense, but why would I need to since my self-assurance means I don't need to be defensive? Defensiveness is for people that are insecure. I'm an analyst, it's what I do, I'm good at it because it's how I think. I don't actually see the point of a non-strict, around-the-point conversation when I'm trying to solve a problem.

Does that adequately answer your question?

Just because you phrased the question in one sentence doesn't mean the question makes sense. Maybe that's simply because your question doesn't apply to me.


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## Template (Aug 2, 2011)

D2D
So sorry you are going through all this. Have you ever considered your husband may be suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder?
You may want to look it up or read the book Walking on Eggshells. 

Borderlines react with emotion rather than fact first. Discussing things with them requires a different skill set than discussing things with a non BP. You have to have a handle on their emotions and approach things from that footing rather than a logic based approach. This will be on you because a BP person has great difficulty with empathy or seeing things from another person's point of view. 

To your H, the list is very practical. He is emotionally protecting himself. To you, analyzing the list from a fact based perspective, the list leaves you no appropriate time to speak with him and no way to discuss ANYTHING to resolution. Very frustrating for each of you.

Two other things to consider when dealing with a BP are that they know that they need you more than you need them and this adds to their internal conflict. And you have to realize that you dislike the BP's behavior, not the BP himself (unless the behavior has driven you past the point of caring for the person)


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

manfromlamancha said:


> Its interesting that you think my questions were abusive. They certainly were not intended to be. The point I was making was that you decided to separate from your husband with a view to divorcing him because you did not like him anymore, leave alone love him. Then you pose the question as to what you should tell him. My questions were meant to help me understand why you thought he was hanging on to this marriage so as to help you with what to tell him. e.g. was he afraid of being alone when it comes to finances ? Then you could tell him something appropriate.
> 
> Instead you took it as somebody challenging you. Now I noticed something very similar in your reactions with Revamped!
> 
> ...


MFL, you're twisting my words and making assumptions. I'm divorcing him because I believe he's abusive. I believe the list of rules are abusive. I believe his blaming me for things I'm not responsible for is abusive. The list is endless. Abused women don't leave their H's because they don't love them, they leave them because they can't take the abuse anymore. You may not have meant for your post to be abusive, but you might reflect upon YOUR approach. Let me reference SLG's question: "Are you "lawyering" him? Trying to trip him up? Badgering him, debating, Asking question after question, talking at him, not with him, etc?" And I'll add to that, "asking questions that can't possibly be answered about what he thinks or feels?" Just saying...


As I went to bed last night and contemplated this thread, I got another 2x4 to the head. What the h3ll am I doing??? While I'm spending my evening until midnight trying to come up with an answer to my stbexH's question, he's asleep in bed, has been for 2 hours already. I didn't do my homework, didn't walk the dog, cut my sleep short .... WHY? I'M LEAVING!!!!! If he really wants to know, he can find out himself!!!!

I have great relationships in my life. His is the only one that is dysfunctional. I'll always have something to work on with myself, I don't need to work on him too.

Thanks for everyone's input. Now I'm going to get on with my life and my stbex can get on with his.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Template said:


> D2D
> So sorry you are going through all this. Have you ever considered your husband may be suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder?
> You may want to look it up or read the book Walking on Eggshells.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Template, for your response. I didn't want to ignore you, you may be absolutely right, but per my last post, I really need to just wash my hands of it. If that's his problem, I hope he figures it out before the next W has to deal what me and his first one have had to.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I agree your husband is abusive. He wants you to play by his rules & gets pissy & passive-aggressive when you break them. You asked "What should you tell him?" Just tell him that. If you want to reconcile, then insist that he gets counseling first before you will consider marriage counseling. 

Frankly, it seems exhausting having to deal with him not to mention anxiety inducing.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Wow... this display of codependency/ACOA type behavior is the worst I have seen so far on TAM and is worse than my situation. 

Sorry OP for your struggles. 

I believe two resources will help you tremendously:
Codependency No More by Melody Beattie
Welcome to Adult Children of Alcoholics - World Service Organization, Inc.

You are going to need these headed into another relationship. 

There are some major issues you cannot see in yourself right now that WILL follow you no matter who you are with until you learn different.

And that's ok... you will, eventually.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

I could compile a very similar list. What I think it comes down to is the same thing my H wants (but would never admit):

He wants you to shut up and be happy. He doesn't like addressing problems and will avoid doing so by any means necessary. He is scared of how he feels, which deep down is full of fear and extremely insecure.

My h will never change. I am leaving him after the holidays.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rooster2014 (Aug 23, 2014)

DaytoDay said:


> H and I are separated. He would still like to reconcile, and I would like to also if things were different, but he just seems clueless and I haven't been able to communicate clearly what the issues are. He asked me yesterday "What's wrong with him."
> 
> Below are the "rules of engagement" that my H has issued to me over the years that I've compiled into a single list (and a few initial Dr. Harley rules.) You don't have to read the whole list, but using this as an example, I'd like to know what you'd say to him if he asked you what's wrong with him. Obviously, perhaps there's nothing wrong with him and it's just me, and I'd be interested in hearing that as well. Just looking for perspective from an objective
> 
> ...


If I did that my wife would show me the door laughing


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I married a man like this. I attempted to explain my point of view and convince him it had validity. I wasted years doing so.

What would I tell him?

"I'm done."

And I did. I don't allow him to rent space in my head any longer.

As my signature says, I don't make anyone a priority in my life who considers me an option.

It's simply not a matter of who is right or who is wrong. It simply a matter of a relationship not working. 

And if your husband changed? Well, he wouldn't be him, would he? I learned the hard way that even if my husband had changed, it wasn't going to make me happy.

Nobody, other than me, is the least bit responsible for my happiness. I own that.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> With this and the list I still see problems with ... your communication/argument skills....you'd have to look at your own communication short comings as well and work together.
> 
> Some things on the list I could see as valid (other than Dr. Harley's)
> 
> ...


To me, this is communication 101.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

OK sounds like you still do love him (from your last response to me). He sounds abusive and weak. This is a tough one. Mainly because despite what you say, you still love him and would go back in a heartbeat if he magically changed overnight (which is not going to happen).

So I guess the answer to your original question is to tell him just that. Tell him that you love him despite what he has been doing but are not prepared to sacrifice your well being and happiness anymore and unless he changed overnight, which is not going to happen, there is no future. As such, the separation is meant to make this easier on all concerned and that is the end of that. Tell him that you now understand that he will not and probably, can not change and that you have accepted that and so should he.


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