# Can cheating save your marraige?



## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

Marital infidelity: Can cheating on your spouse save your marriage?

Does going blind help you hear better?

It might in both cases but don't recommend either.

Since d-day my marriage is definitely better in every area, communication, sex, etc.
Now if only I could sleep at night.


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

If you ask remorseful_strayer, the answer will be yes.

If you ask your wayward spouse, the answer will be yes.

If you ask me, don't ask. Mods will not like my answer I suspect.


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## Malcolm38 (Dec 25, 2012)

verpin zal said:


> If you ask remorseful_strayer, the answer will be yes.
> 
> If you ask your wayward spouse, the answer will be yes.
> 
> If you ask me, don't ask. Mods will not like my answer I suspect.


Same here, my friend.


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

You know, I know of real life cases of couples that are going stronger after infidelity. Like an alarm signal waking them up or something. But these are rare cases.
In most cases cheating would kill the marriage, not save it. 
But hell, there are exceptions from every rule.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

HarryDoyle said:


> Marital infidelity: Can cheating on your spouse save your marriage?
> 
> Does going blind help you hear better?
> 
> ...


Harry: Is it fair to say that after infidelity your marriage is better but your life isn't?


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Perhaps, but it depends on your definition of saved. My XW cheating saved my marriage from continuing on as the lie it was. Does that count?


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

No, but it can end the marriage, but the pain never seems to go away.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Sure it does,putting a gun to your head will get rid of a cold too!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I guess it depends on the tolerance levels of the BS. I know of few relationships that survived an affair.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

I don't think cheating can save a marriage. I think a marraige can be saved IN SPITE of the cheating. I'll say mine is better because the issues are on the table and we definitely spend more time together. I don't lie to him about how I'm feeling and he feels more open with me too. 

Doesn't mean we don't have the really really low/angry/hateful periods where I just want to run away and hide.


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

Hell no! I would sell my soul to the devil himself if it meant I wasn't cheated on.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Can cheating on your spouse save your marriage?

I know it would end mine .... if either one of us did it.


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

Philat said:


> Harry: Is it fair to say that after infidelity your marriage is better but your life isn't?


It depends what your meaning of "life" is. I can see where the author of this article is coming from, though I don't agree. 

My everyday life is better. I didn't realize how miserable I had been in my marraige until now comparing what we had to what we have. WW had lots of issues and we have been forced to work through most of them, if not all. It's been been a helluva year for sure, slowly but surely I'm getting past the pain but it's still hard sometimes, but not all the time. 

The tragedy is we DID NOT have to get here THIS way. There's has got to be a better way to get down to the river without jumping off the bridge. "The end does not justify the means." I may be happy where I am, I am not happy how I got here. But it is what it is I guess.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

HarryDoyle said:


> The tragedy is we DID NOT have to get here THIS way. There's has got to be a better way to get down to the river without jumping off the bridge. "The end does not justify the means." I may be happy where I am, I am not happy how I got here. But it is what it is I guess.



I think B1 and I both would agree that this statement applies in our marriage, as well. After 29 years of marriage; the last 17 months of that being in reconciliation, our love is now deeper, our passion has never been this intense and our communication is wide open, free flowing and we hold nothing back from one another. Yet, there is always that ever-present and painful realization that we wish we had reached this point before my affair. And, it hurts. It hurts both of us. Very much.


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## whathappenedtome (Nov 4, 2013)

I would think that whatever "Benefits" came from cheating could probably be achieved through means that don't devastate the one you should love most.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Those where the very words my cheating husband use to say to me, "It is what it is"... 

~sammy


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

If the cheating spouse was totally transparent & expressed remorse regularly - demonstrated through actions a genuine desire to reconcile then maybe. 

Not in my case - we're cactus.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

yes it can and so can giving me all your money, that would really cement your marriage! im willing to ake your money im just that nice a guy


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Probably similar to playing Russian roulette but with 4 or 5 bullets in the chambers.Some do dodge the bullet though,but there has to be an easier,less damaging way.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

No. But cheating can destroy a marriage. 

That article is like saying. Will exposure to toxic waster reduce risk of cancer? Or, does repeatedly getting kicked in the balls make one's libido higher.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

My marriage is much better now than it was before I cheated. Did cheating save my marriage? NO!!! It made it worse because it added a big fat problem that wasn't there before. 

I agree that the *aftermath of cheating*, to some, can be a catalyst to bring about a positive change in a marriage. Considering the extraordinary cost to be paid by the betrayed spouse and family and the high risk of losing a marriage rather than saving it, it's the absolute worst way to go about it.


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## LivingBreathing (Feb 21, 2013)

It seems to me that so many people will now run out and test this theory and once busted I can hear them say, "But honey, I was only trying to make out marriage stronger." 
I have heard people say, "My heart attack was the best thing that ever happened to me. It made me realize I had to start exercising, and watch my diet. I am now healthier than I have been in years." Meanwhile, their body knows the truth: the heart attack was absolutely the worse thing that had ever happened to it. 
Just saying.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Chumplady's response to that article. Heh

The “Upside” of Infidelity


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

:rofl:

Was the author a BS or a WS? 
You should only write about what you know about.

ETA: A hypothetical R in the scenario described. . . Darling, I'm SO pleased that having shopped around and tried out a few more models, you now know I really am the one for you. In fact, I'm basking in your new appreciation of me.


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## ladywillow (Oct 31, 2013)

I think cheating can save your marriage. Sex is sex. As long as it isn't emotional then who cares?


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## johnAdams (May 22, 2013)

No, I do not think cheating can save your marriage. You very well may stay married despite the cheating. You may have a stronger love than ever for your spouse despite the cheating. I think in most marriages that survive infidelity, a wake-up call short of cheating would have occurred anyway to save the marriage. Those are the really "special" marriages, where a problem is recognized and worked on instead of throwing in the towel and cheating. In my case my marriage survived and I love my wife more than ever despite her cheating.


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## Roddy (Mar 4, 2013)

Interesting thread over at Fark.com. More people in the general population abhor it than I thought would. Caution, these farkers are irreverent about almost anything.

FARK.com: (8005313) Slate decides that they're going to stop pushing obvious trollbait to their front page and focus on serious reporting instead. Nah, just kidding, here's their current lead story on how having an affair might be good for yo


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

HarryDoyle said:


> Marital infidelity: Can cheating on your spouse save your marriage?
> 
> Does going blind help you hear better?
> 
> ...


I can unclog a toilet with a stick of dynamite. The clog would be gone, the area can be used for it's designed purpose.

I'd rather just use a plunger and deal with the small piece of crap instead of blowing the whole thing up and covering EVERYTHING with crap though.


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## lacey99 (Oct 18, 2013)

FourtyPlus said:


> My marriage is much better now than it was before I cheated. Did cheating save my marriage? NO!!! It made it worse because it added a big fat problem that wasn't there before.
> 
> I agree that the *aftermath of cheating*, to some, can be a catalyst to bring about a positive change in a marriage. Considering the extraordinary cost to be paid by the betrayed spouse and family and the high risk of losing a marriage rather than saving it, it's the absolute worst way to go about it.



I totally agree- same with us- our marriage is better/we are better BUT and it's a huge but....


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

We are not better, our marriage isnt better, our families arent better, our son isnt better, our $$ isnt better, our house isnt better, our job isnt better, our spending isnt better, our mental health isnt better, hell, even the dog isnt better... Nope, it hasnt help at all... 

~sammy


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## Sudra (Oct 16, 2013)

I think a WS's marriage can definitely be better after cheating. After all, s/he is married to someone who didn't cheat. S/he wasn't betrayed. And s/he gets the benefit of all of the counseling, etc. that many do after one has an affair.

I'm not sure that's true for a BS. At best, a BS MIGHT be able to have a better marriage DESPITE the affair. More likely, with a lot of counseling, the communication can be better. But the BS will always be in a marriage with someone who cheated, so I think it is unlikely that a BS would ever be grateful that his/her spouse cheated.

Just my opinion, as a BS 3+ years post Dday.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Sudra... You hit the nail on the head! 

~sammy


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Can beating your wife save a marriage?

How can a negitive turn into a positive?

As individuals how can you lie, decieve...abuse the one we love and think it saves the relationship?

I mean its an individule choice to abuse someone and yet one thinks that out of this crazy bull crap it can save a marriage? How?


Well as an individule one can save the marriage by fixing their bull crap but in the same breath the abused has to have a huge degree of forgiveness, again a change.

Some were I read "the only constant in life is change" LOL....so its change that saves a marriage! And a positive change with in a individule just might save their own relationship with the person they love.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Cheating would benefit only a marriage not worth saving.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

....had to check out the article and see if the author was our first therapist .....because way back when ...her attitude was, _"This (what your wife did) can make your marriage stronger". _

....all I can say is that I did have one of my "self-proud" moments back then ...because I restrained myself from beating the living s#!t out of her.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Don’t kill me, but it is possible. Basically, if the marriage is already in a downward spiral of fairly nasty dynamics caused by both of you, and no one is willing to budge... Then an affair can be a catalyst for change. I really hate to say it, but traumatic experiences are life changing events.

Doesn’t mean the marriage will be saved. That is only one possibility. But the relationship will most definitely change and those old dynamics will probably change as well.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

Racer said:


> Don’t kill me, but it is possible. Basically, if the marriage is already in a downward spiral of fairly nasty dynamics caused by both of you, and no one is willing to budge... Then an affair can be a catalyst for change. I really hate to say it, but traumatic experiences are life changing events.
> 
> Doesn’t mean the marriage will be saved. That is only one possibility. But the relationship will most definitely change and those old dynamics will probably change as well.



....oh, 'change' is a guarantee ....and I'd venture a guess that the concept of unconditional trust ...would be long gone as part of that 'change'.

....I've often heard that complete trust of your spouse / partner is a very "bad" thing ...yet ...I've not been able to wrap my head around a relationship where trust isn't a key component. 

...maybe I'm too 'old-fashioned'.?


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## Olderbutwiser (Nov 13, 2013)

Oppurtunity cost....what are you willing to sacrifice to justify cheating on your wife/ husband? At least pick someone they respect, and go from there.....could be a wake up call for them. If their idol is willing to be with you, then there must be something about you that they are missing. I'm not just refering to sex here. Cheating means being disloyal, on several fronts- betrayal has many forms.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....oh, 'change' is a guarantee ....and I'd venture a guess that the concept of unconditional trust ...would be long gone as part of that 'change'.
> 
> ....I've often heard that complete trust of your spouse / partner is a very "bad" thing ...yet ...I've not been able to wrap my head around a relationship where trust isn't a key component.
> 
> ...maybe I'm too 'old-fashioned'.?


Depends on how you define trust and your own compartmentalization skills. Do you trust your spouse with the kids? How about financially? etc. You can actually whittle it down to things they can't be trusted or relied upon and find that it's hopefully a smaller list than the things you would trust them to do. And that's where you work.... but they have to do the work. You can't reconcile or rebuild with a entitled sort of wayward.

Oh, and in addition, trust doesn't have to be a "good thing". Trust is simply being able to predict their future based on your past experience. I 'trust' my wife will lie to me if she places herself in a compromising situation. So we work on not getting in those situations in the first place so she doesn't feel the need to lie about it.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

I saw this yesterday
Infidelity Kills Most Marriages, According To Captain Obvious Survey
where it said only 31% of marriage survived an affair.



> Several surveys have supported this in recent years, with an Ourtime.com query returning 42 percent of adults willing to work on a relationship after finding out their partner had cheated. Only 31 percent of marriages last after an affair has been discovered according to the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

I think it depends on the individual and the core reason for cheating. 

It has saved my marriage. I do hate the fact that my wife was so hurt by it all. 

I also do not recommend it. 

Still, sometimes we have to be willing to end a marriage to save it. 

My wife frequently now says, that things are better. We communicate more and are definitely more engaged with each other. 

She has stated that she wouldn't even want the old marriage back. 

I am lucky though in that my wife was introspective enough to look seriously at her own issues, and how they facilitated the infidelity. 

My wife, however is a very introspective person and although she may be temporarily stubborn, she does take the time to look within. She is also willing to acknowledge and address her shortcomings in the marriage. 

I think so few marriages survive because the people in them are not emotionally equipped to deal with the fall out of an affair. 

The hurt and the rage expressed can drive an emotionally ill equipped person, away permanently. 

In a *majority *of infidelity cases, both people have contributed to the difficulties in the marriage. 

There are cases where the loyal spouses marital failings are minimal and they are unlucky enough to be married to a soulless psychopath, but that is likely not the average case. 



HarryDoyle said:


> Marital infidelity: Can cheating on your spouse save your marriage?
> 
> Does going blind help you hear better?
> 
> ...


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

I suppose one could say that if someone is not paying attention to you, humilate them. Then they will sit up and take notice of you; works everytime.......


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

HarryDoyle said:


> Marital infidelity: Can cheating on your spouse save your marriage?
> 
> Does going blind help you hear better?
> 
> ...


No cheating cannot be good for a marriage.

The opening of communication necessary to recover from an infidelity can save your marriage.

This communication can be gained without the cheating and in fact the cheating always just creates more resentment to work through once that line of communication is open.

Cheating is in no way good for a relationship...ever.


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

To site a very wise woman (CL) " yeah, and shooting off your kneecaps improves your tennis game." hey it's all in how you look at it, come on. Sudra is right. For the WS ,great improved marriage, for BS , not so much.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Fortunately (or unfortunately if you like) I was privy to my WS's explanation / confession to her close/lifelong GF's about her affair. In this case the VAR revealed plenty about her mindset.

It was the classic whitewash mixed with outright BS.

She told them that even though she would not recommend an affair to anyone that ultimately it was a good thing because we were at a crossroads and the affair had revealed that - we actually liked each other and we did want to work it out. 

As far as her GF's are now concerned we are working it out? What a load of bollocks! I have been in the guest room for the last 2 weeks!! (this is the 2nd time since DDay) 

The only advancement has been that I have found a more effective ongoing detachment. No fights, no BS, no hints about sex, no sex, no dependency, no pressure (on her). Everything she wants.

The only thing that is going on is that we are learning to be separate. This is good? If there was some indication of all the "little things" - that indicate re-building, that she bragged about to her friends actually coming from her end I might believe that cheating had some type of positive effect. But i can't see it.

All I can see is me detached and working on me up to that day when we say goodbye. It's a farce as far as reconciliation is concerned. My WS has convinced herself that all is good, even praising my detachment the other day as "the best I have felt about us in years". Huh? 

Oh right, I'm not in our bed any more sending the wrong signals.


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## DoveEnigma13 (Oct 31, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> In a *majority *of infidelity cases, both people have contributed to the difficulties in the marriage.


Let me start by saying I am happy that in your case the result was positive, but I believe it is in the vast minority.

This part of your post bothers me the most. This is what cheaters use to legitamize their infidelity. I would liken this thinking to crashing your car because the dome light was broken. This analogy could go up to stuff more seriously in the car. When your car has something broken you fix it, if it's too much to fix you get rid of it, you don't set it on fire.

If your marriage has problems you fix them. If it's unfixable you divorce.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

DoveEnigma13 said:


> I would liken this thinking to crashing your car because the dome light was broken. This analogy could go up to stuff more seriously in the car. When your car has something broken you fix it, if it's too much to fix you get rid of it, you don't set it on fire.
> 
> If your marriage has problems you fix them. If it's unfixable you divorce.


^^^ I like this analogy.

Deciding to torch your car because it's faulty can make any form of salvage impossible.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

DoveEnigma13 said:


> Let me start by saying I am happy that in your case the result was positive, but I believe it is in the vast minority.
> 
> This part of your post bothers me the most. This is what cheaters use to legitamize their infidelity. I would liken this thinking to crashing your car because the dome light was broken. This analogy could go up to stuff more seriously in the car. When your car has something broken you fix it, if it's too much to fix you get rid of it, you don't set it on fire.
> 
> If your marriage has problems you fix them. If it's unfixable you divorce.


Your analogy is fallacious if not hilarious and seriously flawed. 

A car has no emotions. You can not compare a car to a human.

more over the dome light broke on it's own because the car ran out of juice or a wire broke or whatever, it wasn't broken for any reason other than it's own juice ran out. 

With that said, you are entitled to think what you wish. 

What I think is that your type of thinking is what most RELATIONALLY loyal spouse use to legitimize their victim-hood and to absolve themselves of any faults or flaws responsibilities for difficulties in a marriage. 

Those spouses will usually not have a successful reconciliation in their marriage. And, to my mind that's a good thing for both partners.



> If your marriage has problems you fix them. If it's unfixable you divorce.


My marriage is fixed. The affair solved the problem. It brought it out in the open and now it's gone. 

Don't like that? I don't really care.

It's just the facts, ma'am


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## DoveEnigma13 (Oct 31, 2013)

I wasn't comparing the car to a human being. I was comparing the car to the marriage. Neither you, nor your wife was broken.

You say your marriage was fixed, but I don't believe so. You haven't taken responsibility. You are sorry your wife was hurt, where a remorseful person would say, I'm sorry I hurt my wife. You are also blaming her for your infidelity.

It won't last.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

DoveEnigma13 said:


> I wasn't comparing the car to a human being. I was comparing the car to the marriage. Neither you, nor your wife was broken.


That's semantics, the marriage is comprised of humans. You do know that, right?



> You say your marriage was fixed, but I don't believe so.


YAWN. I have heard that before mostly from bitter BS's whose spouses ran off with someone else. 




> You are sorry your wife was hurt, where a remorseful person would say, I'm sorry I hurt my wife.


Double YAWN.....More semantics and word play. Are you still angry at your spouse?



> You are also blaming her for your infidelity.


She blamed herself. But truthfully, I do think she needed to own her faults. She did. 



> It won't last.


SNORE........Yep, I heard that here too. 

We were already divorced and I was dating and happy. My wife came to me for reconciliation. 

I think our marriage is better and so does she. 

If I am wrong. So what? I will move on. There are plenty of women out there for me. And, plenty of men out there for her. 

That' is what I mean about the neurotic victimhood displayed here by SOME BSs

Do you know how many times Edison's experiments failed? A lot, like thousands. 

When asked by a reporter if he felt depressed about so many failures, he laughed and said: I don't see them as XXXX amount of failures, I see them as XXXX amount of learning opportunities. 

If it fails, it fails. I will move on. I had already moved on. No use crying over spilled milk. I would take action and take control of my own happiness.

I won't be bitter, or angry. I will simply move on. 

I really am confused by all the bitter people who have so much difficulty accepting a failed marriage and moving on. 

What's that about?


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## DoveEnigma13 (Oct 31, 2013)

Well. I can see now that you have not changed.

I refuse to get in an internet argument, so if you feel superior by litigating everything, good for you.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?

What if the other partner never says a word about their cheating? Can that save your marriage, if the other one knows nothing about it?


Can cancer save your marriage?
Can the death of a child save your marriage?

All these things can lead to people getting divorced or making a stronger marriage, or put it in limbo.

I firmly believe any type of negative event can make a marriage stronger.

But if you look at the opposite, can cheating end your marriage?

You will get the same mixed results.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Are you still angry at your spouse?


I often see RS ask the above question to various forum members.. My question to him (knowing that he doesn't actually answer questions, that he'll just ask why I'm angry).. lets make it rhetorical...


Are you worried that your wife is angry with you so you need to read BS tell you how they aren't angry with the WS. Does that give you comfort that perhaps she isn't angry?

Some free advice from a person with no PHD (but I did play a doctor in a school play once). Tell you're wife you take responsibility for your choice to cheat, that you no longer put any of the blame on her. Tell her you're being a big man and owning your mistake, you're no longer blaming others for your own short comings. It wasn't her choice, it wasn't the OW controlling you like a puppet, it was you. Six foot guy with high-salary. Don't blame the girls.. don't blame the devil.. take ownership. She'll figure out her own issues.. she won't need you pointing them out at every turn. You can work on your issues.. you got the height thing under control, and the paycheck.. I'd start by trying to be a bit less superior, and a tad less chest thumping.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

*A car has no emotions. You can not compare a car to a human*


And so "My Mother the Car" was all fake. Man, you just ruined my childhood.


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## jupiter13 (Jun 8, 2012)

I klnow for a fact WH thinks he did all this casue of what was going on between us. Sure I am sick and recoving on medications etc. Oh isn't there something in the vows about "In sickness and in health." I know for a fact WH thinks ourt marriage can be much better. What he doesn't know is how he has strengthen all my insercuries, how he has showen me I am not good enough will never be good enough since she now has everything i was promised or could have expected in my marriage. Reknewing the vows will not make up for the lies and deciept that WH has done. When he put his hands on me that was like telling me I never mattered and will never matter. Not answering my queestions tells me he wants to keep his relationship special with her while who knows what he was telling her about me. Then again is there anything he can say that rings of truth. Whose truth? His? Mine? or the facts as they were since he rewrote those too, making up reasons I felt this way or that way when the facts were something else. No there really is no way a marriage can completely heal from this. I will still never have the faithful husband I was suppose to have and I will always have to share my husband and my bed with her. She got everything that was suppose to be mine after I spent 4 years suffering all these surgeries, pills and pain believing it would believing every word he said would be for the greater good of our marriage. Greater good for who certainly not me.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

DoveEnigma13 said:


> Well. I can see now that you have not changed.
> 
> I refuse to get in an internet argument, so if you feel superior by litigating everything, good for you.


I don't want to argue either. 

Here's a question. Do you feel superior here by discounting everything a wayward says and automatically accusing them of whatever you wish or insisting that you know why they cheated?


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

As an answer to OP, after reading this thread I'm convinced that affairs are likely to save marriages - mine at least. I just have to figure out if I should have a revenge affair or just convince my wife to be like an unremorsefull strayer. I obviously still have a lot to learn.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

> When your car has something broken you fix it, if it's too much to fix you get rid of it, you don't set it on fire.
> 
> If your marriage has problems you fix them. If it's unfixable you divorce.


It seems that simple, but it seldom is. There are too many complications with divorce and too many conflicting needs to make it simple. If you buy the idea of traditional marriage (which I do not), then perhaps there are no other choices.

As for the car analogy, you can make a case that perhaps you can fix it, but can't afford to right now, and it would be silly to get rid of it when it can be fixed later when there's time and money. Or, maybe it works for trips to the store, but no more. Besides, you can always get a "ride" with a "friend."

I don't see most problems as an either/or scenario - there are usually shades of gray.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

> She'll figure out her own issues.. she won't need you pointing them out at every turn.


She has figured it out all by her lonesome. You responded to a post in another thread in which I explained that. Did you actually read it?



> you got the height thing under control, and the paycheck.


I was so right about the height and the paycheck. That really really bothers the heck out of you. Why?



> I'd start by trying to be a bit less superior, and a tad less chest thumping


I didn't ask you for advice. Nor do I want it or need it. 

Do you think I am acting superior? Why specifically... because I don't care to follow your advice?

My marriage is good. How's your?






russell28 said:


> Tell her you're being a big man and owning your mistake, you're no longer blaming others for your own short comings. It wasn't her choice, it wasn't the OW controlling you like a puppet, it was you. Six foot guy with high-salary. Don't blame the girls.. don't blame the devil.. take ownership. She'll figure out her own issues.. she won't need you pointing them out at every turn. You can work on your issues.. you got the height thing under control, and the paycheck.. I'd start by trying to be a bit less superior, and a tad less chest thumping.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> What if the other partner never says a word about their cheating? Can that save your marriage, if the other one knows nothing about it.


I think there are *some *cases where exactly that has happened. 

It depends on what the core reason for cheating is. 

I know the *relationally* loyal spouses don't want to accept this, but the reality is that there are many ways to CHEAT your spouse out of their fair due in the marriage.

Yes. some relationally loyal spouses are cheating too, they just define cheating in a way that benefits themselves only and denigrates the disloyal spouse. 

Very neat and convenient for them, and an excellent way to absolve themselves of any guilt as well as a perfect way to cling to victimhood that likely reaps them benefits in the marriage, if it survives.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> I think it depends on the individual and the core reason for cheating.
> 
> It has saved my marriage. I do hate the fact that my wife was so hurt by it all.
> 
> ...


You know I am not on the Remorseful-bashing bandwagon, but you have to admit how most BS's (myself included) would consider the following to be rather self-serving on the part of the cheater: 

_I am lucky though in that my wife was introspective enough to look seriously at her own issues, *and how they facilitated the infidelity.* _

Also, wrt to the following:

_In a *majority *of infidelity cases, both people have contributed to the difficulties in the marriage._ 

As has often been discussed here on TAM, marriage difficulties are indeed the responsibility of both parties, but infidelity is the accomplishment only of the cheater. You appear not to make this distinction, as if infidelity were just another "difficulty" in the marital road, which again seems self-serving on the part of a cheating spouse. 

Just saying this is why you keep getting pushback on these issues -- you know I think you bring a useful perspective to this forum.


----------



## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> Your analogy is fallacious if not hilarious and seriously flawed.
> 
> *So is your haircut.
> 
> ...


I have a serious question for you RS. I have trouble wrapping my head around not having sex for 10 years. Did you ever get to the root cause of that? She wasn't getting sex behind your back or anything was she? 

I am just wondering because 10 years is a lot to fathom.


----------



## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> I think there are *some *cases where exactly that has happened.
> 
> It depends on what the core reason for cheating is.
> 
> ...


I reckon that BS's who are honest with themselves would accept that they did contribute to the 'environment' where an affair was possible - in my case my WS says I shut her out and she felt like I didn't want her around. 

I accept that I did shut her out and there were times when I didn't want her around. And I also accept that I had a habit of making critical observations way too often and generally not being fun to be with. Plus I had let myself go, I was unattractive.

On the flip side - she drinks. She kept me on a drip fed sexual diet. Mercy sex with the occasional good bonk (or so I thought). Intimacy was a rare thing. The pattern became, during those early child rearing days, that she would drink and watch TV and I would go blogging on our PC. It is effectively the same even now, excluding all the activities our children are now involved in.

As well, I didn't realise how deeply depressed I was. She knew full well the terrible drama within my family and the role I was playing in trying to solve it. The whole shebang ran me down. Those last few years were not pretty. As a man I just assumed I would come out of it (whatever it was that was eating away at me - I still hadn't given it any focus nor had full comprehension; depression is a weird insidious thing).

She was already on the happy pills - I now am; post affair. She had encouraged me to do so almost 8 years ago when due to child rearing and work pressure she first went on them. I did not take that advice then or later - a male, it will all be "alright on the night jack" mentality I suppose.

Many of us don't have a clue how to have a relationship, let alone raise children. So much is happening within and without. We fall into habits and don't work on us. We become strangers and then combatants. We are fighting each other.

Was I effectively cheating on my WS? She actually said that to me early on after DDay. I roared with laughter "You have got to be kidding!" I think I can see what you mean and what she meant but I can't agree.

If you decide to eat cake then there is obviously something you want to preserve. I believe that it is this very thing that you want to preserve that must make your mind up not to cheat. But how do you fight those powerful cheating chemicals? Tough one. 

That's the challenge. Even if that thing you want to preserve is your children and the idea of a family - a safe haven then you are duty bound to do the right thing. And that means that you have to have the guts to end the relationship with your spouse. 

If you want to go to bed with another person then you don't have the right to risk the massive damage that an affair can inflict on you and your family. To layer this fallout over the top of already significant relationship issues is madness.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

That article made me feel somewhat uncomfortable.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

MovingAhead said:


> I have a serious question for you RS. I have trouble wrapping my head around not having sex for 10 years. Did you ever get to the root cause of that? She wasn't getting sex behind your back or anything was she?
> 
> I am just wondering because 10 years is a lot to fathom.


But moving surely its obvious. His wife deprived him of sex for ten years knowing he would step outside and get his needs met, cheat - thus improving and saving the marriage.

She also, as well as he, wanted to save and improve the marriage so created the conditions necessary for him to jump on the white horse, 'steed' up and go into battle.

He had a lot to lose, but he manned up, somehow found the courage from a deep well within himself and stepped into the breach. 

What was it Churchill said - "never.. has so much been owed by so many to so few" 

I had a rethink about him - RS has become my hero :smthumbup:


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> That's semantics, the marriage is comprised of humans. You do know that, right?


Nope. You were wrong and just can't admit it (no matter how you try to obfuscate that fact).

Bit of a running theme with you, it seems.


----------



## Sudra (Oct 16, 2013)

DoveEnigma13 said:


> Let me start by saying I am happy that in your case the result was positive, but I believe it is in the vast minority.
> 
> This part of your post bothers me the most. This is what cheaters use to legitamize their infidelity. I would liken this thinking to crashing your car because the dome light was broken. This analogy could go up to stuff more seriously in the car. When your car has something broken you fix it, if it's too much to fix you get rid of it, you don't set it on fire.
> 
> If your marriage has problems you fix them. If it's unfixable you divorce.


This!! No marriage is perfect, but the cheating happens because the cheater is broken. It's a character flaw. Lots of people with marital issues do not cheat, and plenty of people with happy marriages do cheat. It's the person, not marriage, that causes the cheating. Every time.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can cheating save your marraige?*



remorseful strayer said:


> I don't want to argue either.
> 
> Here's a question. Do you feel superior here by discounting everything a wayward says and automatically accusing them of whatever you wish or insisting that you know why they cheated?



We know why you cheated. Because you could. Now tell us why that was the path you choose over the others. You've continued to avoid answering that question. Was it because you knew you could cheat and bully your wife into accepting the blame? I really think your answer could help many BS and WS on TAM.


----------



## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

There is zero justification in cheating,others besides the spouse get hurt also but
most don't think about that and that's because they are extremly selfish and don't
give a crap about anyone but themselves.
Someone who likes spouting off about how great they are are the ones the have some
serious self esteem issues.
If one thinks the fallout only affects their spouse is lying to them selves big time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

MovingAhead said:


> I have a serious question for you RS. I have trouble wrapping my head around not having sex for 10 years. Did you ever get to the root cause of that? She wasn't getting sex behind your back or anything was she?
> 
> I am just wondering because 10 years is a lot to fathom.


Yes. We did get to the root of it. 

But really, you might want to educate yourself about sexless marriages. They are reaching epidemic proportions. Women in their 20s may lose desire after the wedding day or first child. 

Sometimes some personal crisis triggers it, or a religious issue. 

Do your homework. Someday you too have a high probability of dealing with a sexless marriage. 

Sometimes, too, it's the man that has a low or no sex drive. 

Do some reading and then get back to me, if you want a serious discussion.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> Nope. You were wrong and just can't admit it (no matter how you try to obfuscate that fact).
> 
> Bit of a running theme with you, it seems.


Did it ever cross your mind that perhaps you are wrong?


----------



## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Philat:

I appreciate your well thought out, intelligently worded post. 



> As has often been discussed here on TAM, marriage difficulties are indeed the responsibility of both parties, but infidelity is the accomplishment only of the cheater. You appear not to make this distinction, as if infidelity were just another "difficulty" in the marital road, which again seems self-serving on the part of a cheating spouse.


I don't make the distinction NOW because after reading numerous posts here where spouses are cheating their spouses out of many marital assets, financial, physical, emotional, time, etc, I don't agree with it. 

Infidelity is a marital difficulty. So, it then makes sense that it is the responsibility of both parties to be LOYAL to their vows. 

There are many ways to disrespect marriage vows. Infidelity is just one form of cheating a spouse out of their due in a marriage. 

Sometimes the RELATIONALLY loyal spouse is cheating too. It all depends on how you define cheating. 

After posting here for some time, I NOW define cheating as excessive porn viewing when the wife has complained, gaming, excessive boy's night's out, disrespectful treatment, and various other abuses all accompanied by a refusal to seek MC, despite repeated requests from the hurt spouse. Yes, all those things mention hurt a spouse. 

I see SOME here admit to the above mentioned behaviors yet they sacrosanctly refuse to accept that this was perhaps a direct cause for their wives cheating TOO



> Just saying this is why you keep getting pushback on these issues -- you know I think you bring a useful perspective to this forum.


Thank you, Philat. I like your perspective, too. 

I don't mind pushback when it is a real response expressing an intelligent opinion, and when the person is open to a response that expresses a differing opinion. 

That is why I am responding to your posting.

What I don't like are the continual attacks and nonsenisical replies and constant twisting of words, outright lies about things prior discussed, or words taken out of context. 

It makes me wonder if the respondent handles all their disagreements in all relationships the same unhealthy way. 







Philat said:


> You know I am not on the Remorseful-bashing bandwagon, but you have to admit how most BS's (myself included) would consider the following to be rather self-serving on the part of the cheater:
> 
> _I am lucky though in that my wife was introspective enough to look seriously at her own issues, *and how they facilitated the infidelity.* _
> 
> ...


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Did it ever cross your mind that perhaps you are wrong?


It does happen from time to time. And when it does, I'm enough of a man to admit it.

You misinterpreted his analogy. It's plain to see. Then you tried to hide the fact by enlightening us with the revelation that a "marriage is comprised of humans". Thanks for that doc.


----------



## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

From another thread ( http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/139994-so-why-do-cheaters-cheat-18.html )



remorseful strayer said:


> The thread question was: "why do people cheat?"
> 
> Taking my statement out of context won't make you right.
> 
> ...





remorseful strayer said:


> Going back to the topic question. My answer was that each situation is highly individualized. It seems though that some are not paying attention because they keep asking me the same questions over and over.
> 
> As mentioned prior, none of those reasons apply to me. So again, infidelity is highly individualized.
> 
> ...


Ladies and gentlemen, brace yourselves! We are in the presence of greatness!


----------



## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> I don't make the distinction NOW because after reading numerous posts here where spouses are cheating their spouses out of many marital assets, financial, physical, emotional, time, etc, I don't agree with it.
> 
> Infidelity is a marital difficulty. So, it then makes sense that it is the responsibility of both parties to be LOYAL to their vows.
> 
> ...


ok , let's accept this definition of cheating. still you don't get the point. the point is going outside of your marriage isn't the proper (mature/adult) response for these "cheatings". it just add another set of problems to the table. the funny thing in this theory is when you're talking about relationship , you don't mention kid(s) in any way. in fact you didn't mention your own kids in your marriage. I wonder what would be their opinion of the parent who cheated on the other repeatedly with married women , who btw might have their own kids?
my point is the BS isn't the only one that gets hurt, kids too get hurt. and as long as we know they didn't do anything wrong. this way of handling problems in a marriage would set a bad example for them, don't you agree?

and you just have a small gap in your belief system : you believe that you must stay true to your values , promises , vows as long as your spouse does. you believe you should be honest as long as everybody else are. you believe that we(humans) should stay true to our morals as long as everybody else does? :scratchhead: hummmmm ... interesting 

the funny thing is as far as we know about your life, your wife was honest about not wanting to have sex with you, but you weren't honest about going out of your marriage for sex , right? your wife didn't know you were cheating. at least not until cheating actually took place, right? my question is that why haven't you been honest about it? I mean why didn't you tell her that : "honey , you don't have sex with me. so I'm gonna have sex with prostitutes (or your best-friend)." I think you knew that if she knew that you were cheating , she would be hurt. but you still did it. that makes you dishonest and selfish , right? (I swear I'm not angry , just puzzled)



remorseful strayer said:


> I see SOME here admit to the above mentioned behaviors yet they sacrosanctly refuse to accept that this was perhaps a direct cause for their *wives* cheating TOO


wives? so this comment was only pointing to male BS(s) not female BS(s) :scratchhead: hummmmmmmmmmmm ... interesting


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

life101 said:


> From another thread ( http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/139994-so-why-do-cheaters-cheat-18.html )
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Bask in the glory and greatness people! Peasants!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

life101 said:


> From another thread ( http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/139994-so-why-do-cheaters-cheat-18.html )
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL. He's a real winner, that's for sure.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Once again my question wasn't answered. 


I'm beginning to think strayer doesn't like me. :scratchhead:


Meh, I guess I can live with it.


----------



## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

His input here is, frankly, worthless at best and sheer provocation at worst.

Maybe if the forum was called "Bragging About Infidelity", I'd find his input to be more than didactic, arrogant rationalizations.

Still can't believe he's a psychiatrist.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

InlandTXMM said:


> His input here is, frankly, worthless at best and sheer provocation at worst.
> 
> Maybe if the forum was called "Bragging About Infidelity", I'd find his input to be more than didactic, arrogant rationalizations.
> 
> *Still can't believe he's a psychiatrist*.


Yeah, and I'm an astronaut.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Cheating by definition is destructive to marriage. However, some marriages are in such bad shape that cheating does not have the expected destructive effect.

Alcohol destroys alcoholics. However, one day an alcoholic may have drink in a situation that leads them to see that they must stop. A cheater may gain insight or energy that will lead them to take action to save their marriage. But this does not mean this is a desirable path or best path.

To say that all cheating leads to a negative outcome is too categorical. Where is the proof that this must always so?

Is it possible that a revenge affair sometimes evens the score and gets a couple to make a commitment to reconciliation, for example?


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Cheating by definition is destructive to marriage. However, some marriages are in such bad shape that cheating does not have the expected destructive effect.
> 
> Alcohol destroys alcoholics. However, one day an alcoholic may have drink in a situation that leads them to see that they must stop. A cheater may gain insight or energy that will lead them to take action to save their marriage. But this does not mean this is a desirable path or best path.
> 
> ...


Yes, I would say it's possible, though I wouldn't give credits to the cheating in it self, more the evening the score element.

I suppose that it's possible to find some marginal exceptions in which the marriage could be better off because of some of the "benefits" from the cheating. Most of them provided it remains undiscovered. But I'll maintain that these improvements could be made in other ways with a lot less at stake/risk.


----------



## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

InlandTXMM said:


> His input here is, frankly, worthless at best and sheer provocation at worst.
> 
> Maybe if the forum was called "Bragging About Infidelity", I'd find his input to be more than didactic, arrogant rationalizations.
> 
> Still can't believe he's a psychiatrist.


But don't forget :

6ft 2
Eyes of blue
Earns big money

...Has no clue.


----------



## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Cheating by definition is destructive to marriage. However, some marriages are in such bad shape that cheating does not have the expected destructive effect.


that doesn't make cheating ok. it's wrong. it's morally wrong. and you can't measure moral/immoral acts. what you're doing here is starting a post with a specific view of a certain marriage to lower the amount of negative effects of cheating in general.



LongWalk said:


> Alcohol destroys alcoholics. However, one day an alcoholic may have drink in a situation that leads them to see that they must stop. A cheater may gain insight or energy that will lead them to take action to save their marriage. But this does not mean this is a desirable path or best path.


alcoholics engage in drinking not to solve their problems or improve their lives (including the family). they engage because they don't wanna deal with their s**t. they wanna runaway, forget. and yes at some point they may realize the destruction they're causing to their family and themselves and stop drinking. but they didn't need to spent every dollar they had on drinking to get to this place. they could do it anyway. obviously they won't admit it because if they do, then they should own their decision to drink fully. and that requires responsibility , maturity , courage. and if they were courageous , responsible and mature they wouldn't engage in that self-destructive behavior in the first place. the same thing can be said about cheating.



LongWalk said:


> To say that all cheating leads to a negative outcome is too categorical. Where is the proof that this must always so?


the problem here is the outcome of marriage is the result of a set of decisions made by both spouses including the decision to cheat. the cheating decision has a set of decisions in itself. some of them might be good for the marriage in the short-time. but none of them really improve anything in the marriage. the intention of WS is NOT to IMPROVE the marriage. their intention is to *have their needs met the easy way* (at best). frankly it's so simple that I don't understand why you need proof. more accurately why haven't you seen it , yet? :scratchhead:



LongWalk said:


> Is it possible that a revenge affair sometimes *evens the score* and gets a couple to make a commitment to reconciliation, for example?


marriage isn't a game. and both affair and revenge-affair are improper immature way of dealing with problems in a marriage. they don't solve anything. they just add another layer of problems , another layer of resentment that couple should overcome in order to reconcile. 

RA doesn't necessarily increase the chance of reconciliation. the thing that happens in marriage with A and RA that make the BS and WS reconcile are : BS doesn't have the high moral ground, so they throw WS cheating in their face a a lot lesser. WS has lesser guilt. BS can't say bulls**t to WS reasons since they did the same thing. BS might think that now they deserve a disloyal spouse (feeling less about themselves) , ........


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can cheating save your marraige?*



Headspin said:


> But don't forget :
> 
> 6ft 2
> Eyes of blue
> ...


More likely

5ft. 1
Tons of fun
On benefits

This one's done.


----------



## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

Sudra said:


> This!! No marriage is perfect, but the cheating happens because the cheater is broken. It's a character flaw. Lots of people with marital issues do not cheat, and plenty of people with happy marriages do cheat. It's the person, not marriage, that causes the cheating. Every time.


Best way to put it EVER !!!!!! :iagree::iagree:


----------



## YupItsMe (Sep 29, 2011)

The effort invested into a marriage that was prompted by a huge scare of losing a marriage from lack of effort, neglect and abuse is what saves a marriage. 

Asking for a divorce often has an identical result of waking a person up and motivating them to put as much effort into the marriage that s required to save and maintain it


----------



## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

bfree said:


> More likely
> 
> 5ft. 1
> Tons of fun
> ...


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha....I liked that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

YupItsMe said:


> The effort invested into a marriage that was prompted by a huge scare of losing a marriage from lack of effort, neglect and abuse is what saves a marriage.
> 
> Asking for a divorce often has an identical result of waking a person up and motivating them to put as much effort into the marriage that s required to save and maintain it


just wanted to add ... 
"being asked for a divorce" is A LOT different than "finding your spouse was cheating on you". It's A LOT different for both of spouses , their kids, their parrents , friends , .... I hope that nobody ask me for an explanation. it's kinda obvious.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

user_zero said:


> that doesn't make cheating ok. it's wrong. it's morally wrong. and you can't measure moral/immoral acts. what you're doing here is starting a post with a specific view of a certain marriage to lower the amount of negative effects of cheating in general.
> 
> Nowhere did I say cheating is okay. Don't put words in my mouth.
> 
> ...


----------



## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Nowhere did I say cheating is okay. Don't put words in my mouth.
> 
> Just because exceptions exist does not mean the general principle that cheating is wrong should be called into question.


I'm not putting anything in your mouth. there are no real exceptions. cheating is wrong. there is no condition , good reason , justification for it. 



LongWalk said:


> There are cases in which cheating a survival mechanism that is justified but they are not usual.
> 
> A man or woman whose spouse is in prison may have PA and/or EA without they could not survive. Imagine a single parent in a bad socio-economic environment who enters a relationship that provides some combination sex, money and emotion, without which food and shelter are missing.
> 
> Alternatively, imagine a person caring for a spouse who has been ill for many years with a cancer or MS who have been unable to have sex or provide emotion. The caretaking spouse may be simply *unable to go on with out an adulterous relationship*.


thankfully, I don't have to imagine these examples. I have SEEN people in those situations and they stayed true to their moral values. yeah I know it's hard to believe for WS(s).



LongWalk said:


> Divorcing a person with a serious illness can cause they to literally give up fighting for their lives.


cheating on them can do that too. you don't believe me? it's ok. there is a thread here on TAM about a guy with terminal cancer who has found out that his wife was cheating on him. do yourself a favor. go on that thread and ask him : how does he feel about it?

2nd point - "serious illness" is part of Vow. "To cherish and love, in sickness and health. to forsake others". that covers it all , right? I mean they already promised that. if they can't keep their promises , what's the point of saying vows?
and just to be clear about the survival mechanism. no body dies from "not having sex". there are some cases that people did die as a result of sex or even during the sex but not the other way around. there are people around the world who because of their health issues can't have sex. yes ..... they are not happy about it. but they are not dead. they have life.




LongWalk said:


> I never said that "alcoholics engage in drinking not to solve their problems or improve their lives." Don't set up straw men in my name.


that's actually my phrase you're posting here. read it again.



LongWalk said:


> You are correct. But what is a short time?Actually, you imply is that a spouse who needs are not being met may be in better mood and actually feel less oppressed in their marriage. In many cases, the secret affair may lead even more quickly to the marriage's destruction, which is where the term exit affair comes.


I'm not implying that. please read again. and take a deep breath before you post. trust me , it helps.



LongWalk said:


> But in some cases a cheater may step back from the affair and recommit to their marriage without exposure. We don't know how common that is.


does it matter how common is that? you're not getting the point. whether the cheater go back to marriage or not, whether exposure happens or not, that's not make cheating ok. and it's not cheating that makes marriage stronger.



LongWalk said:


> If everything in life were simple, Sunday school would be unnecessary.


I don't get it. I'm sorry .... I'm just puzzled :scratchhead:



LongWalk said:


> If loyalty were so obvious, we would not ask children to pledge allegiance every morning in school.


I'm puzzled again :scratchhead:



LongWalk said:


> If cheating were an absolute evil, ordinary citizens would join forces and demand that lawmakers pass laws to criminalize adultery. Judge would then mete out stiff punishment to those who strayed.


so you're saying because people are not demanding to pass laws against cheating , that makes cheating not wrong.?? :scratchhead:

in fact there are some countries that in those countries , cheating is a crime. people are free to marry , to divorce. but they shouldn't cheat. in those countries the cheating statics are lot lower but still marriage/divorce rates are high. I don't know how many times I read here on TAM from BS(s) that they wish their courts consider cheating in divorce cases too. of course that would make pre-nups unnecessary.



LongWalk said:


> I never said revenge affairs are mature or proper.
> 
> Violence is something we seek to avoid. But sometimes violence must be replied in kind. When two parties are violent towards each other and recognize that both have the capacity to hurt each other, sometimes it leads to compromise.


Violence shouldn't be replied with violence unless in self-defense. and in those situations, it is the last resort and your life is depend on it. comparing it to affairs is just ridiculous. don't believe me ask a kid. they know that if a thing is wrong , you shouldn't do it. even if every body else do it.


----------



## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Cheating by definition is destructive to marriage. However, some marriages are in such bad shape that cheating does not have the expected destructive effect.
> 
> Alcohol destroys alcoholics. However, one day an alcoholic may have drink in a situation that leads them to see that they must stop. A cheater may gain insight or energy that will lead them to take action to save their marriage. But this does not mean this is a desirable path or best path.
> 
> ...


LongWalk you are so intelligent - that's obvious.

What I don't see in your myriad of "what if" scenarios is wisdom. Wisdom cuts through the fog of intellectual curiosity and grabs hold of the truth.

The truth is, infidelity is one of the most horrific, traumatic pains someone can inflict on another. It is ALWAYS a selfish, entitled act. It is ALWAYS in defiance of vows two people made to each other. It is ALWAYS destructive of the families it visits.

I wouldn't wish the pain of an unfaithful spouse on my worst enemy. It was so excruciating and life-altering that I will never be the same person I was.

There is never a justification for it. If you want out, then leave the relationship. Don't steal another one while you live a lie with your family.


----------



## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Hey all, many people on this site don't agree with Remorseful Strayer, and if you look back on any thread where he and I were posting, I'm one of his staunchest opponents on the topic of cheating.

But, as much as he may come across as smug and condescending, I don't believe I remember him being insulting. Let's try to avoid doing that, as tempting as it maybe.

Remorseful Strayer's opinions are a valuable asset because he is probably the best example of a cheater, who has returned to a monogamous relationship, but still holds some of the mentalities of a cheater. I find his posts insightful, even if, in my personal opinion, misguided. I'm not right in the grand scheme of things, much like how he's not "wrong" in the grand scheme. I'm just right for me.


----------



## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Hey all, many people on this site don't agree with Remorseful Strayer, and if you look back on any thread where he and I were posting, I'm one of his staunchest opponents on the topic of cheating.
> 
> But, as much as he may come across as smug and condescending, I don't believe I remember him being insulting. Let's try to avoid doing that, as tempting as it maybe.


that depends on the posts you've seen , on your memory and on your definition of insult. he keeps reminding us about his degree , his high income to prove his points. now I (and some other people) believe that is insulting, don't you? 
but to really understand why people are disagreeing with him. I suggest that you read the last 80 posts of his. specifically the ones he made to css, bfree, calvin, healer , russel28. there was a thread here (got removed) that he said because people go to war willingly they shouldn't have PTSD experiences. because that was part of job description. actually recently he compared humans to lamps. and his repeatedly cheating behavior to failed experiments (attempts) to have a successful relationship. 



Dad&Hubby said:


> Remorseful Strayer's opinions are a valuable asset because he is probably the best example of a cheater, who has returned to a monogamous relationship, but still holds some of the mentalities of a cheater. I find his posts insightful, even if, in my personal opinion, misguided. I'm not right in the grand scheme of things, much like how he's not "wrong" in the grand scheme. I'm just right for me.


nobody's disagreeing with every post he made. what people here are doing is replying to his wrong posts by pointing the wrongness in those posts. which he refused to address any of them. strangely every time he ignores bfree posts , I wonder why!


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Hey all, many people on this site don't agree with Remorseful Strayer, and if you look back on any thread where he and I were posting, I'm one of his staunchest opponents on the topic of cheating.
> 
> But, as much as he may come across as smug and condescending, I don't believe I remember him being insulting. Let's try to avoid doing that, as tempting as it maybe.
> 
> Remorseful Strayer's opinions are a valuable asset because he is probably the best example of a cheater, who has returned to a monogamous relationship, but still holds some of the mentalities of a cheater. I find his posts insightful, even if, in my personal opinion, misguided. I'm not right in the grand scheme of things, much like how he's not "wrong" in the grand scheme. I'm just right for me.


Actually he has insulted me a few times but I just let it roll off my back. And when he calls posters that ask him questions or disagree with his views "bitter" that is insulting as well. I agree with you that he is not remorseful in any sense of the word and that in and of itself is valuable. But even though I'm a Christian and used to turning the other cheek, I find myself wondering just how many cheeks I need to turn when it comes to interracting with him on these boards.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

> To say that all cheating leads to a negative outcome is too categorical. Where is the proof that this must always so?


Good post, good points. I can see you are from Europe, a place where affairs are not considered the most devastating thing that could happen to a monogamous marriage. They are expected in a long term marriage, even if the wife still has a sex drive.

I think whether or not a affair is devastating, even in the moralistic US, depends on the core reason, whether the relationally loyal spouse is willing to acknowledge their own faults, and the attitudes of each. 

I have mentioned prior, I would not be devastated by an affair. What might have devastated me would have been my wife asking for a divorce, out of the blue, because she was in love with someone else. 

I think whether or not an affair devastates a person, is highly individualized. Some people can handle it. 

Obviously a lot of marriages are surviving affairs. 





LongWalk said:


> Cheating by definition is destructive to marriage. However, some marriages are in such bad shape that cheating does not have the expected destructive effect.
> 
> Alcohol destroys alcoholics. However, one day an alcoholic may have drink in a situation that leads them to see that they must stop. A cheater may gain insight or energy that will lead them to take action to save their marriage. But this does not mean this is a desirable path or best path.
> 
> ...


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

YupItsMe said:


> The effort invested into a marriage that was prompted by a huge scare of losing a marriage from lack of effort, neglect and abuse is what saves a marriage.
> 
> Asking for a divorce often has an identical result of waking a person up and motivating them to put as much effort into the marriage that s required to save and maintain it


The question was can cheating SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE. 

Divorce doesn't save anything. 

Are you saying that divorcing a spouse because she has no sex drive, is more moralistic than having an affair partner with whom there is absolutely no love or emotional connection, and was chosen specifically because there could never be, is less harmful than a divorce. 

I think a lot of people would disagree. Even some betrayed spouses. 

Who BTW set the moral tone? Who has decreed it superior to the moral tone accepted in Europe, regarding affairs.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> I can see you are from Europe, a place where affairs are not considered the most devastating thing that could happen to a monogamous marriage. They are expected in a long term marriage, even if the wife still has a sex drive.


You do realize that Europe is not a country right? So European attitudes on infidelity are consistant across borders? Where are your facts to back up such a bold statement?

The UK is in Europe and although I don't live there I would suggest from many UK posters here that their attitudes on cheating are pretty similar to the attitudes in the US. Same goes for other countries. Maybe in France they are more tolerant of extramarital affairs but I'd like you to show me where you come by your "facts."


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Good post, good points. I can see you are from *Europe*, a place where affairs are not considered the most devastating thing that could happen to a monogamous marriage. They are* expected* in a long term marriage, even if the wife still has a sex drive.
> 
> I think whether or not a affair is devastating, even in the moralistic US, depends on the core reason, whether the relationally loyal spouse is willing to acknowledge their own faults, and the attitudes of each.
> 
> ...


so basically you're saying that the rightness/wrongness of affairs depends on the region. it's regional. and they are expected in a marriage. they are part of norm. :rofl: 
it's interesting. in fact , it's quite educational.


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> The question was can cheating SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE.
> 
> Divorce doesn't save anything.
> 
> ...


the problem is not that YOU went outside of your marriage. the problem is it happened repeatedly without the agreement/awareness of your wife. I mean if it's ok for you. if you had good reason for it, then why didn't you tell your wife before hand? why not be honest about it? :scratchhead:

of course somehow you're gonna miss this post. which shows a lot of interesting things about YOU. oh no ... I'm not angry with you. in fact, I'm intrigued by you.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

user_zero said:


> so basically you're saying that the rightness/wrongness of affairs depends on the region. it's regional. and they are expected in a marriage. they are part of norm. :rofl:
> it's interesting.


No. What I am saying is that rightness or wrongness of an issue is based on current acceptable societal or cultural norms. 

Societal or cultural norms have routinely changed throughout history. They may change again,. 

Simply because one person or even a group of people claim that an affair was the most devastating thing that happened to them, does not create the corollary that EVERYONE would feel that way. 

I don't. My wife has repeatedly told me she doesn't . 

She feels the marriage is now a better marriage. So do I. 

What's to argue about. 

Yes, a person can say that an affair was the most devastating thing that happened to THEM PERSONALLY. 

But they can NOT dogmatically assume that everyone feels the same.


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## DoveEnigma13 (Oct 31, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Are you saying that divorcing a spouse because she has no sex drive, is more moralistic than having an affair partner with whom there is absolutely no love or emotional connection, and was chosen specifically because there could never be, is less harmful than a divorce.


Yes.



> I think a lot of people would disagree. Even some betrayed spouses.


None that I've ever met. You've got a nice social group if that's the norm.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

DoveEnigma13 said:


> Yes.
> 
> None that I've ever met. You've got a nice social group if that's the norm.


Well, all that is possible. In your own internal world and your internal social circles. I can not argue with your claims and/or perceptions. Nor do I wish to. Your opinions are yours to have and to own. 

It still is not then a corollary that ALL people egocentrically feel as you do.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Okay, point taken...I'll back out. I just hate to see any one user, as long as their not overtly obnoxious, to be unnecessarily insulted.

(PS that last sentence is not in anyway a statement directed to any one member both for or against, it is just a generalization).


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> No. What I am saying is that rightness or wrongness of an issue is based on current acceptable societal or cultural norms.
> 
> Societal or cultural norms have routinely changed throughout history. They may change again,.
> 
> ...


So what you're saying is that we shouldn't be upset when someone we love cheats? So I assume you don't believe in monogomous relationships? If you and your wife don't have an issue with infidelity why not take the next step? Why not have an open marriage? After all you already had an open marriage before except that you neglected to inform your wife about it. Maybe you should rectify that oversight and put her on an level playing field this time around?


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> It does happen from time to time. And when it does, I'm enough of a man to admit it.
> 
> You misinterpreted his analogy. It's plain to see. Then you tried to hide the fact by enlightening us with the revelation that a "marriage is comprised of humans". Thanks for that doc.





> *Azteca said:* Originally Posted by azteca1986 View Post
> Nope. You were wrong and just can't admit it (no matter how you try to obfuscate that fact).
> 
> Bit of a running theme with you, it seems.


I'm man enough to admit that I can't presume to know when someone is right or wrong in their own mind. 

If you say you were devastated by your wife's cheating, I accept that. If it was your dealbreaker and you divorced her...I accept that. 

What you need to acknowledge, IMO, is that everyone is different. 

Some men would be devastated by a wife's affair, others would not. For some it would be a dealbreaker, for others it would not.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

> user_zero said:
> 
> 
> > the problem is not that YOU went outside of your marriage. the problem is it happened repeatedly without the agreement/awareness of your wife. I mean if it's ok for you. if you had good reason for it, then why didn't you tell your wife before hand? why not be honest about it? :scratchhead:
> ...


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

oops my mistake


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> > That exact question was asked by you in another thread and it was answered by me. Did you read my answer? The answer was that we had discuss it numerous time. I asked her to go to counseling. I asked her if she were unhappy with me or wanted a divorce. You know that. You responded to my response.
> 
> 
> this isn't the response to that question. let me rephrase it for you :
> ...


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

> ok , let's accept this definition of cheating. still you don't get the point. the point is going outside of your marriage isn't the proper (mature/adult) response for these "cheatings".


According to whom? 

Present day societal norms, cultural norms, a small group of egocentric thinkers, a large group of egocentric thinkers?

Whom, exactly?

Remember, please, the original posters question was: "did cheating save your marriage."

My answer is an unequivocal......YES!

Do you think that divorcing and discarding a wife who is no longer interested in sex is the moral thing to do. 

Do you think rubbing it in her face is the moral thing to do. Some people do rub their affairs in their spouses face.....to hurt them. 

I kept it secret, so as not to hurt her. 

Would attempting to bully her into sex, by threatening divorce, have been more moralistic by your standards?

If so, do you consider that more moralisitic.




user_zero said:


> ok , let's accept this definition of cheating. still you don't get the point. the point is going outside of your marriage isn't the proper (mature/adult) response for these "cheatings". it just add another set of problems to the table. the funny thing in this theory is when you're talking about relationship , you don't mention kid(s) in any way. in fact you didn't mention your own kids in your marriage. I wonder what would be their opinion of the parent who cheated on the other repeatedly with married women , who btw might have their own kids?
> my point is the BS isn't the only one that gets hurt, kids too get hurt. and as long as we know they didn't do anything wrong. this way of handling problems in a marriage would set a bad example for them, don't you agree?
> 
> and you just have a small gap in your belief system : you believe that you must stay true to your values , promises , vows as long as your spouse does. you believe you should be honest as long as everybody else are. you believe that we(humans) should stay true to our morals as long as everybody else does? :scratchhead: hummmmm ... interesting
> ...


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

user_zero said:


> remorseful strayer said:
> 
> 
> > this isn't the response to that question. let me rephrase it for you :
> ...


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> According to whom?
> 
> *Present day societal norms, cultural norms, a small group of egocentric thinkers, a large group of egocentric thinkers?*
> 
> ...


what you did and the way you did it , did hurt her. no matter what you say , you can't deny that. you can't deny that it was immoral. I don't think you believe in after life. but I'm telling you, there would be a time that you have to answer for the choices you made. do you think what you did is worth the risking of your soul? I just hope you get the point and repent before you leave this world. trust me , you don't wanna have this kinda weight on your shoulders.


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> user_zero said:
> 
> 
> > Actually the answer was a response to the question, you simply CHOOSE TO EGOCENTRICALLY refuse to accept it. The answer was:... *the question was prior asked by you in another thread and then answered.*
> ...


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

My marriage has been on the brink since my wifes affair 2½ years ago. I would very much like to save it, so I thought that maybe I should try this method with these promising prospects - especially since I'm from Europe.

A few questions before I proceed though. To make sure I get the desired result, which is saving my marriage, does it make difference if there's an emotional component in the affair or not, and does it make a difference who I choose to betray her with (should it be someone she knows?), and finally, how long should I wait untill I tell her about it - I'm very eager to get our relationship rolling again, so any advice is welcome.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

cpacan said:


> My marriage has been on the brink since my wifes affair 2½ years ago. I would very much like to save it, so I thought that maybe I should try this method with these promising prospects - especially since I'm from Europe.
> 
> A few questions before I proceed though. To make sure I get the desired result, which is saving my marriage, does it make difference if there's an emotional component in the affair or not, and does it make a difference who I choose to betray her with (should it be someone she knows?), and finally, how long should I wait untill I tell her about it - I'm very eager to get our relationship rolling again, so any advice is welcome.


My advice is that an affair can save a marriage *if there is something lacking in it or if the wife repeatedly refuses to address that lack with counseling.*

If your wife is working on her issues, IMO, a revenge affair will likely throw a bomb into an already inflamed situation.

With that said, If I my wife had a revenge affair, I would just deal with it. 

An emotional component for a women is likely a deal breaker. EA/PA affairs, revenge or otherwise are apparently the most difficulty for a marriage to overcome. 

But I am not your wife, and thus my advice can NEVER apply to anyone but me.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

InlandTXMM said:


> LongWalk you are so intelligent - that's obvious.
> 
> What I don't see in your myriad of "what if" scenarios is wisdom. Wisdom cuts through the fog of intellectual curiosity and grabs hold of the truth.
> 
> ...


I empathize with your pain. I don't mean to belittle or make light of your suffering. 

It certainly fair to say that infidelity is one of the worst things you can do to someone that is not a criminal act. There are no doubt many BS who would rather that their WS had hit them than cheat.

To say that there is never justification is too sweeping. There are people who perhaps cannot easily divorce. How many thousands of national reservists served two tours of duty in Iraq and/or Afghanistan and returned home traumatized and dysfunctional. Their spouses may be extremely conflicted, wishing on the one hand to remain loyal and married but on the other certain that the person they married no longer exists.

Someone may have gone away kind, upbeat and healthy, only to return an abusive, alcoholic who cannot hold a job. Divorcing such a spouse may seem too cruel. 

Cheating may add to their troubles or it may be refuge within a tragic and difficult situation.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> I empathize with your pain. I don't mean to belittle or make light of your suffering.
> 
> It certainly fair to say that infidelity is one of the worst things you can do to someone that is not a criminal act. There are no doubt many BS who would rather that their WS had hit them than cheat.
> 
> ...


Does "for better or for worse" not mean anything anymore? If she married an active-duty soldier who comes home really messed up, she has a right to go spread her legs on him in addition to his trauma? WTF happened to the world? Where in the civilized world is it not only legal, but financially advantageous, for a wife to divorce?

And I cry BS on not being able to divorce an alcoholic or abuser as an allegory. What you are describing are TWO damaged people, not just one. Healthy people DO NOT STAY in dysfunction for very long. They just don't. What you are describing is a drunk and a co-dependent.

I could see it even being nobler to ask the spouse for an open situation if nothing else. But don't sneak around behind someone's back. It's the betrayal of blind faith and trust and the going back on your word that makes it infidelity, not the sexual activity.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

> InlandTXMM;5570618]
> 
> Does "for better or for worse" not mean anything anymore?


Excellent question: But doesn't that than apply to infidelity, too?

If infidelity is the worst thing to happen to the marriage. Wouldn't it be dishonoring the vow you just quoted to automatically seek divorce. 

Again, saying infidelity is the worst thing to happen to a marriage is an opinion. An opinion that not all cultures or individuals share. 

As for it being nobler to ask for an open relationship first. I did. My wife was not interested in that type of situation. 

That brings us back to things being highly indvidualized. 

Whether or not it saves a marriage is highly individualized. Cheating can save some and NOT save others. It depends on the core reason for cheating and how the aftermath was handled by BOTH spouses. 







InlandTXMM said:


> Does "for better or for worse" not mean anything anymore? If she married an active-duty soldier who comes home really messed up, she has a right to go spread her legs on him in addition to his trauma? WTF happened to the world? Where in the civilized world is it not only legal, but financially advantageous, for a wife to divorce?
> 
> And I cry BS on not being able to divorce an alcoholic or abuser as an allegory. What you are describing are TWO damaged people, not just one. Healthy people DO NOT STAY in dysfunction for very long. They just don't. What you are describing is a drunk and a co-dependent.
> 
> I could see it even being nobler to ask the spouse for an open situation if nothing else. But don't sneak around behind someone's back. It's the betrayal of blind faith and trust and the going back on your word that makes it infidelity, not the sexual activity.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

"For better or worse" are the old fashion vows. But those vow have no legal meaning. The word tht people say in church ceremonies are not a legal contract. You are not the only person upset that the vows have been eliminated from the law.

Today marriage lasts as long as neither side cancels. No reason for the cancelation need be given.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

user_zero said:


> what you did and the way you did it , did hurt her. no matter what you say , you can't deny that. you can't deny that it was immoral. I don't think you believe in after life. but I'm telling you, there would be a time that you have to answer for the choices you made. do you think what you did is worth the risking of your soul? I just hope you get the point and repent before you leave this world. trust me , you don't wanna have this kinda weight on your shoulders.


I know this may greatly surprise you but not all religions follow the same tenets as does your religion.

Furthermore, not everyone believes in your particular religion.

Based on your belief in an after life, I would ask, aren't you possibly concerned that some of your very behaviors here on this board may be risking your soul? Or perhaps the inability to forgive your wife's transgressions, or turn the other cheek to them, has risked your soul?

Or, maybe according to the tenets of another religion, it would be risking your soul. 

Lastly, have you talked to your GOD personally, and has he personally advised you of those things he/she/it considers a sin?


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

remorseful strayer said:


> Excellent question: But doesn't that than apply to infidelity, too?
> 
> If infidelity is the worst thing to happen to the marriage. Wouldn't it be dishonoring the vow you just quoted to automatically seek divorce.
> 
> ...


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

> Bfree said: Ah but then there is that pesky "forsaking all others" line. And since the vows are originally religious in nature guess what is one of the very few reasons to divorce your spouse? Yup, infidelity.


The thread topic is whether or not cheating can save a marriage.

My answer is it YES it can. depending on the situation. 

As for "forsaking all others" Yes the vows do say that, but that does not negate the fact that they still say.... *for better or for worse. *

Again, if, cheating is the worst thing to happen in a marriage. Then either people hold up their vows as an excuse for a divorce or they abide by them. 

You can't have it both ways BFree, you can't both claim that people must honor their vows, while only obeying PART of them. 

For better or worse means you stick it out even in worse times.

Either you believe one is obligated to honor vows or you don't, but that means you honor all of them and do not equivocate and/or only honor the ones that serve your best interests


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can cheating save your marraige?*



remorseful strayer said:


> The thread topic is whether or not cheating can save a marriage.
> 
> My answer is it YES it can. depending on the situation.
> 
> ...


But cheating breaks those vows no? You can't uphold vows that no longer exist. When you cheated you broke the covenant, the contract if you will. At that point there was nothing left tying you to your wife in as much as vows are concerned. So better or worse doesn't enter into it does it? You are the one trying to have it both ways. You can't simultaneously break your vows and insist that your wife uphold them.


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> I know this may greatly surprise you but not all religions follow the same tenets as does your religion.
> 
> Furthermore, not everyone believes in your particular religion.
> 
> ...


dude , I'm not married. I have never been betrayed by anyone. that's for fifth time. aren't you reading my posts?

and what behaviors? I mean look who's talking?


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## BWBill (Jan 30, 2013)

_Simply because one person or even a group of people claim that an affair was the most devastating thing that happened to them, does not create the corollary that EVERYONE would feel that way. 

I don't. My wife has repeatedly told me she doesn't . 

She feels the marriage is now a better marriage. So do I. 

What's to argue about. 
_


So you would do it again?


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

user_zero said:


> dude , I'm not married. I have never been betrayed by anyone. that's for fifth time. aren't you reading my posts?


No I don't read all your posts, only the ones you address to me. 

If however you have never been betrayed, why do you haunt the infidelity forum.

But my question still stands, since you brought up the afterlife, egocentrically assuming the everyone in the world believes in one......., do you think your God approves of your behavior here? 




> and what behaviors? I mean look who's talking?


[/QUOTE]

You brought up morals and religion, not me. So, Just curious, if you think your GOD approves of your behaviors here. 

The thread is whether infidelity saved my marriage. It did. That's a fact. The bible may say cheating is grounds for divorce, but it doesn't say we should advocate divorce in such cases. 

From a moralistic point you seem to be advocating divorce no matter what the individual case involves.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

bfree said:


> But cheating breaks those vows no? You can't uphold vows that no longer exist. When you cheated you broke the covenant, the contract if you will. At that point there was nothing left tying you to your wife in as much as vows are concerned. So better or worse doesn't enter into it does it? You are the one trying to have it both ways. You can't simultaneously break your vows and insist that your wife uphold them.


Bfree: You were the one who brought up vows, not me. I was simply asking you a question. 

Are the vows, from your prosepective, a tit for tat thing or a moralistic thing?

If you think the vows are a tit for tat thing, do you think that is something someone with good moral values would do?

Does it save marriages?


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Maybe your marriage is better but for the BS there are scars that will never heal. The WS is the one that might declare a Win Win. 

Let's be honest. When someone dies tragically maybe it would bond the couple but what was the cost? To have a better marriage I risked everything, cause unbearable pain for the BS. but it is all good now.


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> No I don't read all your posts, only the ones you address to me.


I meant the ones I addressed to you. on this very thread I already posted to you two times that I'm not married and I'm not a BS



remorseful strayer said:


> If however you have never been betrayed, why do you haunt the infidelity forum.


 haunt? why so negative all of the sudden? and btw I already answred that to you on another thread.



remorseful strayer said:


> But my question still stands, since you brought up the afterlife, egocentrically assuming the everyone in the world believes in one......., do you think your God approves of your behavior here?


yes. I'm trying to help people to not engage in behaviors that would only bring them in their family pain. what about you? you're advising them to cheat! how did that work for you? your wife didn' get hurt, right?



remorseful strayer said:


> You brought up morals and religion, not me. So, Just curious, if you think your GOD approves of your behaviors here.


yes, again. how do I know? I have a manual and I'm following it, step by step.

and please just answer bfree questions.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Cheating, when it gets caught, does one thing, it brings out the truth. If anything improves after an affair is busted open it's only when both spouses put it all on the table and decide what to do with it. Getting caught in an affair forces communication.

Now would you rather truthful communication come about after your spouse has given herself/himself to another man/woman and devastated you?

or do you think truthful communication would be better when both spouses have a generally clean plate and a lot better position to start from?


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Here is an interesting link. It is but one that suggests that an affair can save a marriage.

http://living.msn.com/style-beauty/simply-chic-blog-post/?post=d4fc5392-2b5a-416b-9bbd-4c45d428ceb9 

Will it in all cases. I don't know. I can't speak for everyone. 

All I know is it saved mine.




the guy said:


> Can beating your wife save a marriage?
> 
> How can a negitive turn into a positive?
> 
> ...


----------



## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

I think a better question is... 

Does it have to come to that? Does your marriage have to be run roughshod over with infidelity to get it to a better place?

Is there really no viable alternative than that left?

I expect the answer to that would be "no."

Breaking your leg can result in the bone healing back even stronger.. but i don't see anyone out there volunteering to break their legs...


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

mahike said:


> Maybe your marriage is better but for the BS there are scars that will never heal. The WS is the one that might declare a Win Win.
> 
> Let's be honest. When someone dies tragically maybe it would bond the couple but what was the cost? To have a better marriage I risked everything, cause unbearable pain for the BS. but it is all good now.


Not everyone suffers unbearable scars from it. It saved my marriage, my wife does not feel scarred. 

She feels it opened up communication, and gave us a fresh start. She has often mentioned this unsolicited.

Also, in some other countries and cultures people are not scarred by infidelity. It is somewhat expected and normal. 

Personally, I prefer monogamy. If my wife had not lost interest in sex, I would have easily remained faithful. 

Do you think a person can be scarred by a wife who loses all interest in sex, and repeatedly refuses counseling. 

Infidelity saved my marriage. That's a fact. 

Will it work for everyone. That depends. I can't answer that, I am not a guru or an oracle. I can only say it worked for me in my situation.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Also, in some other countries and cultures people are not scarred by infidelity. It is somewhat expected and normal.


That's not infidelity, that's an open marriage. They are no where near the same thing.



> Personally, I prefer monogamy. If my wife had not lost interest in sex, I would have easily remained faithful.


Monogamy is not the opposite of infidelity, sorry.



> Do you think a person can be scarred by a wife who loses all interest in sex, and repeatedly refuses counseling.


Yes. You seem to think infidelity is just about sex outside the marriage. It's much more than that... It's a matter of repsect, integrity, and constructive solutions... or lack there of in the case of infidelity.



> Will it work for everyone. That depends. I can't answer that, I am not a guru or an oracle. I can only say it worked for me in my situation.


It will not work for everyone, that does not "depend".. many many many marriages are torn apart by infidelity and never recover. It does not depend, it is a fact that it will not save a marriage for everyone.

Anecdotally, for you, from your perspective alone, sure... you may very well believe it did.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can cheating save your marraige?*



remorseful strayer said:


> Bfree: You were the one who brought up vows, not me. I was simply asking you a question.
> 
> Are the vows, from your prosepective, a tit for tat thing or a moralistic thing?
> 
> ...


Vows represent the bond between spouses. The bond that ties two people together in marriage. When you break that bond the marriage is dissolved. That is why to get back to the original question I believe that you cannot save a marriage by cheating. Once you break that bond the marriage is dead forever. Now, that said you can rebuild the trust. You can reforge the bond. But since infidelity inevitably alters you regardless of whether you are the BS or the WS the old marriage can never be saved and those that try are imo doomed to failure. You must build a new marriage out of the ashes of the old one because the people are changed so the marriage must be a new one. Sometimes the new marriage can be stronger, sometimes not. But it IS new.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: Can cheating save your marraige?*



remorseful strayer said:


> Not everyone suffers unbearable scars from it. It saved my marriage, my wife does not feel scarred.
> 
> She feels it opened up communication, and gave us a fresh start. She has often mentioned this unsolicited.
> 
> ...


So you are not really remorseful, and also I'd venture to say it was the restoration of the sex life with your W that saved your marriage, not your affair. So while your A brought about the change you needed to get your needs met in the relationship, it may not have been the only way and thus possibly not necessary to get you where you are now. Also, I would recommend not being dismissive of the potential scarring this can cause, for every betrayed spouse, including your w.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

I agree with Lon here...

Infidelity doesn't save a marriage, the spouses do that. Infidelity may be the catalyst that wakes them up to make some big changes, but I would hardly credit lying, cheating, and sneaking around for months on end as "saving" anything...

And yes, spouses are often scarred permanently by this, even though many may not admit that to their spouse who did the scarring...


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> I agree with Lon here...
> 
> Infidelity doesn't save a marriage, the spouses do that. Infidelity may be the catalyst that wakes them up to make some big changes, but I would hardly credit lying, cheating, and sneaking around for months on end as "saving" anything...
> 
> And yes, spouses are often scarred permanently by this, even though many may not admit that to their spouse who did the scarring...


Regarding the question of can cheating save a marriage. I am not alone in my opinion. There are people well schooled on the issue who agree that in SOME cases it can save marriages.

Here is a link and an portion of an interesting article discussing sex in the marriage and its importance. 

The Wifely Duty - Caitlin Flanagan - The Atlantic


> from the article: Sex therapists concur that sexless marriages are not inherently problematic; if both partners are satisfied with a passionless union, the marriage is said to be in fine shape. But I'm not so sure. Marriage remains the most efficient engine of disenchantment yet invented. There is nothing like uninterrupted cohabitation and grinding responsibility to cast a clear, unforgiving light on the object of desire. Once children come along, it's easy for parents to regard each other as co-presidents of an industrious little corporation. Certainly, all sound marriages benefit from sudden and unexpected infusions of good will—What luck! Here we are, so many years later and still as happy as ever! But the element that regularly restores a marriage to something with an aspect of romance rather than of collegiality is* sex.*


As for whether or not anyone thinks I am sufficiently remorseful. I am not concerned with their thoughts. 

All I know is that in my case it saved my marriage. 

My wife is very attractive and could easily move on, we both can, and given that we were already divorced and she got more than half, which I willingly gave her, against my attorneys advice, and alimony, and given the fact that she came back seeking reconciliation, I believe her when she says she was not scarred. Why shouldn't I. 

Do you read minds? Do you regularly assume your wife or anyone is lying to you?

I asked her that. She is not trying to NOT hurt my feelings. Believe me she had plenty of nasty things to say. 

Do you know why my divorce attorney pushed for me to give her less in the divorce than I gave her?

Because he said her lack of interest in sex was constructive abandonment. 



> Constructive Abandonment: If your spouse makes life unbearable and you can prove to the court that your only option was to leave the marriage this is constructive abandonment. A spouse would have “just cause” to leave the marriage for any of the following reasons as long as they are able to prove it in court.
> 
> Domestic Abuse
> Infidelity
> ...


So in the end the affair saved my marriage, in my opinion and in my individual case.

Will it save all marriages. I haven't a clue.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> So in the end the affair saved my marriage, in my opinion and in my individual case.


According to the history you just outlined, no, your WIFE saved your marriage by offering reconciliation.. your cheating is what almost killed it.

You should be thanking your wife, not your cheating...

I think you have an odd way of attributing credit... to credit lying, cheating, and sneaking around as saving something rather than your wife extending an olive branch isn't making much sense...



> Do you know why my divorce attorney pushed for me to give her less in the divorce than I gave her?
> 
> Because he said her lack of interest in sex was constructive abandonment.


Your point? Attorneys are not marriage therapists, far from it.

I don't doubt your wife neglecting your marriage's sex life was a problem. But that does not in any way legitimize infidelity.

They are both destructive reactions to marital problems... I would argue infidelity being much much worse of the two...


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

I'm trying to see a way that my WS's cheating is saving us but it's a tough one. On one hand it had opened up communication - for a while, to a degree; then it shut down. In the sense that the affair is not discussed. What I might need to know or discuss is not considered or encouraged. 

On the other hand I am still, from time to time plagued by my feelings and thoughts about what my WS actually got up to with this POSOM. How that POS is happily ensconced with a compliant wife & none the wiser children, to my knowledge, and is probably out there right now working his routine on someone else's unhappy partner.

All of this has lead to my current and "successful" detachment - successful in that I am no longer reliant on my WS for emotional and psychological succor. 

So it's horses for course as I have said before. It may well be that an affair reinvigorates / saves a relationship. However it depends on the two people involved and their circumstances. And certainly it would be a fluke if an affair did lead to a better relationship. 

You would not normally prescribe an affair to deal with deep relationship issues or even to make an individual, within a relationship feel better about themselves would you? Blind luck if it works out for the better IMHO.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

bfree said:


> Vows represent the bond between spouses. The bond that ties two people together in marriage. When you break that bond the marriage is dissolved. That is why to get back to the original question I believe that you cannot save a marriage by cheating. Once you break that bond the marriage is dead forever. Now, that said you can rebuild the trust. You can reforge the bond. But since infidelity inevitably alters you regardless of whether you are the BS or the WS the old marriage can never be saved and those that try are imo doomed to failure. You must build a new marriage out of the ashes of the old one because the people are changed so the marriage must be a new one. Sometimes the new marriage can be stronger, sometimes not. But it IS new.


Oh but as I stated, the infidelity did save my marriage. It is egocentric to keep insisting it did not in face of that fact. 

There are numerous counselors who have seen it save marriages in SOME cases and have publicly stated so. 

I agree with you about the new marriage statement from a philosophical stand point. 

But technically we are the same people living in the same marriage, an improved one, but not a totally authentically new one, either.


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## DoveEnigma13 (Oct 31, 2013)

I wasn't paying attention to your posts. I apologize for that.

You say that your infidelity saved your marriage, when in fact it did not. You did divorce, spent some time apart, basically went on your merry way. I commend you on doing what you could to make sure your wife was taken care of monetarily. Many would not.

I propose that the infidelity did not save your marriage. It caused a divorce. What you have is reconciliation, and a new relationship and marriage that is stronger.

That is great for you, that your wife could get past it and commit to you. This is however a new relationship, and new marriage in my opinion.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

DoveEnigma13 said:


> I wasn't paying attention to your posts. I apologize for that.
> 
> You say that your infidelity saved your marriage, when in fact it did not. You did divorce, spent some time apart, basically went on your merry way. I commend you on doing what you could to make sure your wife was taken care of monetarily. Many would not.
> 
> ...


You may define it in any conceptually semantic way you wish. 

We are the same people in the same union. I think it saved my marriage, and if based on numerous experts, infidelity can save marriages, even without them first going through a divorce. 

I accepted the divorce without contest because I thought it would give my wife some of her power back. She needed that, and it worked.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

DoveEnigma13 said:


> That is great for you, that your wife could get past it and commit to you. This is however a new relationship, and new marriage in my opinion.


Exactly! Your WIFE saved your marriage, not your cheating!

Give credit where it is due... or you are headed for another divorce...


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

> based on numerous experts, in can save marriages, even without them first going through a divorce.


I have never read a single expert that took that position.

I have read experts saying marriages can survive infidelity, but that's not the same thing as infidelity saving a marriage.

I suspect you are confusing the two...


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Can cheating save your marraige?*



remorseful strayer said:


> Oh but as I stated, the infidelity did save my marriage. It is egocentric to keep insisting it did not in face of that fact.
> 
> There are numerous counselors who have seen it save marriages in SOME cases and have publicly stated so.
> 
> ...


Did you just say in a prior post that you did in fact get divorced but later reconciled? So infidelity did NOT save your marriage. It ended and later you both found enough grounds to try again. BIG DIFFERENCE.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> Exactly! Your WIFE saved your marriage, not your cheating!


:iagree:
It sounds more like your wife deciding to reconcile with you after divorcing is what ultimately saved your relationship (first marriage died with the divorce).


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> I have never read a single expert that took that position.
> 
> I have read experts saying marriages can survive infidelity, but that's not the same thing as infidelity saving a marriage.
> 
> I suspect you are confusing the two...


I have a feeling he's pulling it out of his a$$.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

bfree said:


> Did you just say in a prior post that you did in fact get divorced but later reconciled? So infidelity did NOT save your marriage. It ended and later you both found enough grounds to try again. BIG DIFFERENCE.


Exactly.. infidelity destroys marriages... forgiving and remorseful spouses rebuild/reconcile marriages.

As was said BIG BIG BIG difference...

Odd way of attributing credit... I would imagine your wife would rather you credit her for your marriage being where it is now.. rather than your lying, cheating, and sneaking around...

I seriously doubt your wife would enjoy hearing you credit your cheating as saving the marriage rather than her!


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

Allen_A said:


> According to the history you just outlined, no, your WIFE saved your marriage by offering reconciliation.. your cheating is what almost killed it.


Or maybe it was already dead due to my wife's lack of interest in sex. 

You are entitled to your opinion. 



> You should be thanking your wife, not your cheating...


Would you insist your wife thank you, in a similar case, or would you own your issues, as my wife did. 

Owning her issues is what ultimately saved the marriage, but the infidelity was her wake up call.



> I don't doubt your wife neglecting your marriage's sex life was a problem. But that does not in any way legitimize infidelity.
> 
> They are both destructive reactions to marital problems... I would argue infidelity being much much worse of the two...


[/QUOTE]

Again, you are entitled to your opinion, as long as you realize I am entitled to mine. 

Is your opinion the only valid one. 

In my case, it is definitively invalid. Is it invalid in every case. I haven't a clue. Maybe in some cases your opinion is valid and mine invalid. 

What I did worked. Whether you like that or not, it still remains a fact, the infidelity was a wake up call to my wife, and that saved our union. 

New marriage/old marriage call it what you wish. It's meaningless to me, at this point.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

InlandTXMM said:


> I have a feeling he's pulling it out of his a$$.


I am open to reading any references he puts forward.

I have over a dozen books on infidelity and countless articles.. I have yet to stumble on even one that made his claim.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> I am open to reading any references he puts forward.
> 
> I have over a dozen books on infidelity and countless articles.. I have yet to stumble on even one that made his claim.


But didn't you know? HE'S the resident expert. :rofl:


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

InlandTXMM said:


> But didn't you know? HE'S the resident expert. :rofl:


I don't doubt lying, cheating, and sneaking around for months on end would make someone knowledgeable about that business...

I just question as to how one can cheat and it follow from that, that the marriage is saved or better.

I am thinking there's a few steps in between there that aren't being brought into focus.

Did WW II save Europe? Hardly... Europe is in a much better place now than in 1939, but I would hardly credit WWII for that... many many many things happened between there...

I would attribute infidelity as the catalyst for spouses hammering out reconcilliation, but catalysts are not saviors.

That's like saying Jaws saved Amity Island...


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> I don't doubt lying, cheating, and sneaking around for months on end would make someone knowledgeable about that business...
> 
> I just question as to how one can cheat and it follow from that, that the marriage is saved or better.
> 
> ...


See, he needs infidelity to be a half-way decent thing, because he's the cheater.

I honestly do not know why the mods, in a forum for people affected by this most extreme pain and trauma, are allowing someone a podium with which to actually celebrate it.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: Can cheating save your marraige?*



remorseful strayer said:


> Regarding the question of can cheating save a marriage. I am not alone in my opinion. There are people well schooled on the issue who agree that in SOME cases it can save marriages.
> 
> Here is a link and an portion of an interesting article discussing sex in the marriage and its importance.
> 
> ...


Even in your case I don't think the affair saved it, it merely put it to the test of whether your marriage was salvagable or not. So I guess atleast you found that out, only reason I joined this thread is to suggest that there are much less destructive ways to go about determining if the relationship is salvageable.

And I hope that to those reading this thread who are considering an affair aren't seeing justification for the poor decision they are about to make.

As to your level of remorsefulness, I only commented on that because you picked that as your username. If you are not concerned what others think, why may I ask did you choose to invite such scrutiny by picking the username you did?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

This thread topic makes me want to scratch my head


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Lon said:


> Even in your case I don't think the affair saved it, it merely put it to the test of whether your marriage was salvagable or not. So I guess atleast you found that out, only reason I joined this thread is to suggest that there are much less destructive ways to go about determining if the relationship is salvageable.
> 
> And I hope that to those reading this thread who are considering an affair aren't seeing justification for the poor decision they are about to make.
> 
> As to your level of remorsefulness, I only commented on that because you picked that as your username. If you are not concerned what others think, why may I ask did you choose to invite such scrutiny by picking the username you did?


Because he's here to flame. Nothing more.


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

remorseful_strayer, what was your wake-up call?

oops ... sorry ... I missed it. you are not awaken yet, of course.


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

double post


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

InlandTXMM said:


> Because he's here to flame. Nothing more.


Then why has no one reported it?


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

> I am open to reading any references he puts forward.
> 
> I have over a dozen books on infidelity and countless articles.. I have yet to stumble on even one that made his claim.


Here is but one. 

Could having an affair save your marriage? British scientist recommends 'good infidelity' and looking to the French for inspiration on successful relationships | Mail Online

There are other books and articles by experienced infidelity articles who claim the same opinion. 

Moreover some sociologists and psychologist predict that the present marital paradigm may be shifting. 

The shift include acceptance of affairs by both spouse. As long as there is no emotional involvement.

If you not, Hakim, suggest being discreet and not flaunting the affair is key to doing this successfully, without threatening the spouse 

I guess that would include a bit of deception. No?


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> This thread topic makes me want to scratch my head


It's just a silly way of attributing credit... I don't know what would motivate such a thing, but on this forum in particular I think it's in bad taste to suggest infidelity can save a marriage at all...

I am sure there are waywards out there that sleep better at night thinking their infidelity was some kind of call for help and that they pat themselves on the back in secret for "speaking up".

I would consider the suggestion in very bad taste...

That's like saying serial killers crimes are cries for help and save the country from absolute ruin.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Here is but one.
> 
> Could having an affair save your marriage? British scientist recommends 'good infidelity' and looking to the French for inspiration on successful relationships | Mail Online
> 
> ...


This is called an open marriage. This is still not one person sneaking around behind the other's back. This is NOT infidelity.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Moreover some sociologists and psychologist predict that the present marital paradigm may be shifting.
> 
> The shift include acceptance of affairs by both spouse. As long as there is no emotional involvement.


That's not infidelity, that's an open marriage.. you do realize that's not the same .. right?

Infidelity does NOT equal Open marriage.. far from it.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Here is but one.
> 
> Could having an affair save your marriage? British scientist recommends 'good infidelity' and looking to the French for inspiration on successful relationships | Mail Online
> 
> There are other books and articles by experienced infidelity articles who claim the same opinion.


Did you actually read the article? Hakim is advocating open marriage, she is not arguing that infidelity saves marriages.

Read beyond the title... read the actual article.


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## Allen_A (Nov 18, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Moreover some sociologists and psychologist predict that the present marital paradigm may be shifting.


Again you are alluding to an open marriage, not infidelity.



> The shift include acceptance of affairs by both spouse. As long as there is no emotional involvement.


That is open marriage, not infidelity.



> If you not, Hakim, suggest being discreet and not flaunting the affair is key to doing this successfully, without threatening the spouse


Having an affair at all threatens your spouse, the spouse does not need to know they are being cheated on to have their marriage threatened.



> I guess that would include a bit of deception. No?


You have an odd conception of what infidelity is, and how to properly attribute reconciliation credit...


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

InlandTXMM said:


> This is called an open marriage. This is still not one person sneaking around behind the other's back. This is NOT infidelity.


It's not. 

The miriam webster dictinary describe infidelity as:

i


> n·fi·del·i·ty
> noun \ˌin-fə-ˈde-lə-tē, -(ˌ)fī-\
> 
> : the act or fact of having a romantic or sexual relationship with someone other than your husband, wife, or partner.





> The Oxford dictionary:
> 
> noun (plural infidelities)
> 
> 1the action or state of being unfaithful to a spouse or other sexual partner


from the American-English dictionary



> a situation in which someone has sex with someone who is not their husband, wife, or partner
> Thesaurus entry for this meaning of infidelity
> 
> This is the American English definition of infidelity. View British English definition of infidelity.
> ...


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

Allen_A said:


> Did you actually read the article? Hakim is advocating open marriage, she is not arguing that infidelity saves marriages.
> 
> Read beyond the title... read the actual article.


No no, we must have misinterpreted it. It won't be his mistake.

See, it was his wife that caused him to go f^ck around, not him.


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