# Husband's friendship with woman ok?



## vtwife (Mar 31, 2016)

I have been married for 35 years. Recently I found out that my husband was developing a friendship with a woman I don't know. I found out by reading his texts (That was wrong, but I was bored and his phone was sitting there). Anyway, he is turning it around to me doing that and keeps saying I didn't do anything wrong but then why did he hide it. I haven't been a jealous person throughout our marriage, so if he would have told me about it up front I probably would have been fine and wanted to meet her. We are now at a point where neither of us is trusting the other. Am I off base to be mad about this?


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## bankshot1993 (Feb 10, 2014)

I do believe that if there are no ulterior motives than there is no reason to be afraid of transparency.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

vtwife said:


> I found out by reading his texts (That was wrong, but I was bored and his phone was sitting there).


That is a very lame excuse. Do you really believe that was the reason? You are kidding yourself. You were purposely spying on your husband because you do not trust him. Admit that to yourself.


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

Hmm ok so you read his texts.
IMO his turning it around to how you did such a horrible thing makes him look like he is hiding something. Which he obviously is...even if they are just friends. 
If there was nothing going on and you've been non judgemental and not jealous throughout your marriage then why is he so defensive? 
What did the texts say?


Sent from my iPhone


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## vtwife (Mar 31, 2016)

But up to this point I did trust him. We have made it through 35 years together. But I will think about what you said


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## vtwife (Mar 31, 2016)

One was that their meeting was serendipitous. She said she was a divorced woman so it was ok from her standpoint, but since he was married it felt sneaky. He replied that he had a fantasy that they could be friends. I found out that when I was out after work with my girlfriends he had gone to her apt and they had listened to music.... He didn't text her for 2 weeks, but then I saw on our cell phone bill that they texted back and forth this week. I told him about it last night that I saw her number on my bill and now am accused of spying.......things supposed to be private according to him. And I ."ruined" his day.


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

A fantasy that they could be friends...
Went over it her place and didn't tell you?
Well perhaps you ruined his day but did you tell him that the fact that he didn't tell you he went over to another women's appt is hurtful.
Than would really bother me and is not ok in my book.
Sounds like you need to sit down with him and communicate.



Sent from my iPhone


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

After 35 years of marriage, he decides to potentially stray? That's odd. Not saying it's not possible, but that's just interesting to me. 

Having said that, I'm starting to believe that monogamy, life long monogamy, while beautiful in theory, it can be hard to be entirely faithful in thoughts. We are human. But, if those thoughts start taking shape...and cause a person to lie to his/her partner, then a discussion should be had. I hope things don't go down a bad path for you, OP. ((hug))


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> After 35 years of marriage, he decides to potentially stray? That's odd. Not saying it's not possible, but that's just interesting to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Having said that, I'm starting to believe that monogamy, life long monogamy, while beautiful in theory, it can be hard to be entirely faithful in thoughts. We are human. But, if those thoughts start taking shape...and cause a person to lie to his/her partner, then a discussion should be had. I hope things don't go down a bad path for you, OP. ((hug))




I agree with you...it seems odd to me too. 35 years is a long time with many opportunities before now.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Privacy in marriage is not much more then closing the bathroom door. Screw him and others who pull this crap when discovered sneaking around. 

Lots of guys need a 2z4 up the side of the head - repeatedly at times. He is a guy not a woman. So go to war NOW!!

First ask him to move to another bed, 

Second tell him there is only one type of friend for an individual spouse. One who is a trend to the marriage first and foremost. Anyone else is toxic and has to go, (note narcissist or BPD are separate cases) 

Third he is full of it and until he is ready to be honest There is the door get out, 

Perhaps @EleGirl or @lifeistooshort can put it better- but that is the bottom line.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Here is a list of classic red flags for guys about women. Many items can be reworded to apply to guys. Be nice if a woman developed a list of what to look out for, but I have not seen one yet. 

Red flags*

Sex life dropped off noticeably
Passwords on phone and computer
Much more time on line...fakebook.
More GNOs...staying out later.
Less eye contact and holding hands...much less physical contact.
Less communication.
Staying up late on computer.
Dressing more provocative
More shopping-spending...clothes.
3 hour groceries shopping trips
Gasoline use and mileage went up
Generally disconnected from family.
New friends that I wasn't introduced to
Cell/text usage went up...way up.
New hair style and attention to makeup
Started exercising more.
Secretive about whereabouts during contact
She would become annoyed easily with me.
Household responsibilities dropped way off.
ecame more forgetful in general
A noticable distancing from her family.
Much more waxing...trimming...shaving....not for me.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

citygirl4344 said:


> I agree with you...it seems odd to me too. 35 years is a long time with many opportunities before now.


This could just be the first time he got caught.


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> This could just be the first time he got caught.




Touché @blueinbr
Although she doesn't know if he's having a PA. Sounds as though he is at least emotionally invested.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Your husbands defense is classic DAVO. @Marduck posted this link awhile ago that explains it. 

Davo

What is DARVO?

Jennifer J. Freyd, University of Oregon

Short Definition

DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility or even blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.


Disclaimers

DARVO as a concept is based on observation and analysis. The author has not yet published systematic empirical research testing the coherence or frequency of DARVO. However, the first empirical research specifically testing the concept of DARVO is completed and the manuscript report is in preparation (Harsey, Zurbriggen, & Freyd, in prep).
Other observers have likely noted the same phenomena and related phenomena using different terms; the author has been informed that some people have found the term DARVO a helpful mnemonic and organizing concept.
Also the presense of DARVO is not necessarily evidence in support of the accusation of guilt; a truly innocent person may deny an accusation, attack the person making the accusation, or claim the victim role. Future research may be able to determine the probability of a DARVO response as a function of guilt or innocence. The author hypothesized that some sorts of denials and reactions such as DARVO are more likely when the perpetrator is guilty than innocent (Freyd, 1997); however this hypothesis has not yet been tested. Furthermore, even if research indicates that a DARVO reaction is more likely when there is actual guilt, it would be an error to use a DARVO reaction as proof of guilt.
For now the concept of DARVO is offered as potentially memorable and useful term for anticipating the behavior of perpetrators when held accountable, and for making sense of responses that may otherwise be confusing (particularly when victim and offender get reversed).*
History of Terminology & Writings about DARVO

Jennifer Freyd introduced the term "DARVO" near the end of a 1997 publication about her primary research focus, "betrayal trauma theory." (For more on betrayal trauma theory, see Definition of Betrayal Trauma Theory.)

The reference for the 1997 article introducing the term is:

Freyd, J.J. (1997) Violations of power, adaptive blindness, and betrayal trauma theory. Feminism & Psychology, 7, 22-32.

In that paper Freyd explained that DARVO responses may be effective for perpetrators. "...I have observed that actual abusers threaten, bully and make a nightmare for anyone who holds them accountable or asks them to change their abusive behavior. This attack, intended to chill and terrify, typically includes threats of law suits, overt and covert attacks on the whistle-blower's credicility, and so on..... [T]he offender rapidly creates the impression that the abuser is the wronged one, while the victim or concerned observer is the offender. Figure and ground are completely reversed... The offender is on the offense and the person attempting to hold the offender accountable is put on the defense." (Freyd, 1997, p 29-30)

"By denying, attacking and reversing perpetrators into victims, reality gets even more confusing and unspeakable for the real victim. .... These perpetrator reactions increase the need for betrayal blindness. If the victim does speak out and gets this level of attack, she quickly gets the idea that silence is safer." (Veldhuis & Freyd, 1999. p 274).

It didn't happen (an instance) or It rarely happens (a type of event)
It wasn't harmful
Put together they can take the form: "It didn't happen, but if it did, it wasn't that bad" or "It rarely happens, but when it does it isn't harmful." The two claims both serve to deny, but they depend upon different sorts of evidence. They may both be true, but they are sometimes somewhat suspicious when claimed simultaneously (or by the same person at different times), as for instance can occur in response to allegations of rape or child sexual abuse.

Here is the link*What is DARVO?
Hat tip to @marduk*


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> That is a very lame excuse. Do you really believe that was the reason? You are kidding yourself. You were purposely spying on your husband because you do not trust him. Admit that to yourself.


Ok, based on the additional information from OP, I no longer agree with what I wrote.

She did not trust her husband because of the conscious or subconscious clues she was picking up from his behavior. I always tells OPs to trust their gut/instinct as it is probably right most of the time. She was certainly right this time to check the phone. 

OP, I am sorry you are here.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I noticed the two of you have been together or 35 years. So in regards to a drop off in sex life and your age. Yes it is not uncommon at your age for a drop off. But on the other hand: there is a reason why the villages (the largest 55 years and older community - actual it is a small city) has the highest STD rate in the USA.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

So, your husband has had a private "friendship" with a woman you don't know for a while now. He went to visit her at her apartment to "listen to music" while you were out of the house for the evening and never told you about it. His texts to her were frequent and emotionally intimate. And you're wondering if you should feel guilty about finding out?

Your husband has a girlfriend. One he's been on at least one in-person date with. Listen to music, really? Is that the older generation's version of Netflix & chill? 

How cool would he be with you going alone to an unknown-to-him male friend's home for an evening of musical enjoyment? And hiding it from him, to boot?


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

He!l to the no! OP you get that slag's phone number, ring her and tell her to stay the he!l away from your husband!

Then you move your cheating, liar husband to the spare room and start counselling for yourself first, to see if you can ever trust him again. If you think you can, then counselling together may be an option.

He doesn't get a vote here, make this about YOU.


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## New_Beginnings (Nov 16, 2015)

A new friendship that you don't know about. Yes it's a red flag.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

vtwife said:


> I have been married for 35 years. Recently I found out that my husband was developing a friendship with a woman I don't know. I found out by reading his texts (That was wrong, but I was bored and his phone was sitting there). Anyway, he is turning it around to me doing that and keeps saying I didn't do anything wrong but then why did he hide it. I haven't been a jealous person throughout our marriage, so if he would have told me about it up front I probably would have been fine and wanted to meet her. We are now at a point where neither of us is trusting the other. Am I off base to be mad about this?


 Other then when you are going to the bathroom, there should be no expectation of privacy in marriage. Spouses that know that they are breaking a marital boundary, always try to turn it around to the spouse invading their privacy as the issue so that they do not have to address the real issue, which in this case is his secret relationship with another woman. Many couples have boundaries against having opposite sex friends ("OSF"). Those that do have boundaries that include OSF, almost always require full transparency about the relationship and require that the OSF be a friend of the marriage, these are a very common marital boundaries that your husband has clearly crossed. The secrecy and his not addressing the real issue of his relationship with this other woman are very big red flags. If your husband were in an emotional affair ("EA"), this is exactly how it would look and how he would act. Immediately Google "emotional affair" ("EA"), so that you understand the danger.

Tell your husband that you do not consider you reading his text message as a big deal between married people and that he is free to look at your info anytime that he likes since you have nothing to hide. Then tell him that you will discuss the issue of you reading his text messages only after he tells you everything about his secret relationship with this other woman. That a secret relationship with another woman that has the potential to either be or heading towards a EA or physical affair ("PA"), must be addressed first as any other issue does not compare. If he is in fact in a EA or PA, he will not respect this obvious statement and insist that his fake right to privacy prevents him from having to answer, as if this was some sort of Bill of Rights issue and you were the police. Call bull on this and take a hard stand on not even wanting to talk about privacy until a potential affair issue is address. BTW, cheaters always try to make you feel bad for daring not to trust them, when in fact he is acting untrustworthy in his secret relationship with this woman that you as his spouse have a right to know about. Do not feel bad about saying that you do not trust him in this situation because of the secrecy.

QUESTION: How does a cheater say "scr3w you"?
ANSWER: They say "Trust me".


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

vtwife said:


> I have been married for 35 years. Recently I found out that my husband was developing a friendship with a woman I don't know. I found out by reading his texts *(That was wrong, but I was bored and his phone was sitting there).* Anyway, he is turning it around to me doing that and keeps saying I didn't do anything wrong but then why did he hide it. I haven't been a jealous person throughout our marriage, so if he would have told me about it up front I probably would have been fine and wanted to meet her. We are now at a point where neither of us is trusting the other. Am I off base to be mad about this?


this is BS. No one in a marriage has the privacy to cheat.

I don't know the detail of the texts but if you're smart you'll stomp this into the dirt immediately. 80% of affairs start off as friendships.

I don't care if you're married 50 years


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

vtwife said:


> She said she was a divorced woman so it was ok from her standpoint, but since he was married it felt sneaky.


 Even the other woman knew that it was wrong and that he was doing it behind your back. 



vtwife said:


> He replied that he had a fantasy that they could be friends.


Nobody had a "fantasy" about having a friend. He was telling her in code that he wanted to be more than just friends.



vtwife said:


> I found out that when I was out after work with my girlfriends he had gone to her apt and they had listened to music.


 A date is spending time with a person of the opposite sex that gives you the opportunity to develop a romantic relationship with them. Studies show that most dates do not involve sex, and that many do not even involve kissing. Regardless of if they have had sex yet, your husband is dating this other woman, and married people are not suppose to date.



vtwife said:


> I told him about it last night that I saw her number on my bill and now am accused of spying.......things supposed to be private according to him. And I ."ruined" his day.


 Everything that your husband is saying to you is right out of the cheaters handbook. Read other posts in the "infidelity" section of this site and you will be shocked at just how much your husbands answers line up with all of the cheaters.


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## SoulCrushed16 (Feb 15, 2016)

So you read hubby's text messages. Big deal. Privacy for you both ended when you said 'I do' 35 years ago. Other posters have said it best 'privacy is closing the bathroom door'. If he is indeed getting defensive about it then there is something more going on. And what the Feezy is he doing at another woman's apartment? A fantasy about being 'friends'? What does this mean exactly?? ??.


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## vtwife (Mar 31, 2016)

thanks everyone, I told him the word fantasy shouldn't be used in that context, that it applied something more. He said that I would like her, he was looking for her to be a friend for me......then why didn't we all get together? 
You know when they turn it around on you, you get confused and start questioning yourself. I am glad I found this forum to get feedback.


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## KatNap (Mar 30, 2016)

Yeah, I never cared.


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## vtwife (Mar 31, 2016)

KatNap said:


> Yeah, I never cared.


KatNap, what are you referring to?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

vtwife said:


> He said that I would like her, he was looking for her to be a friend for me......then why didn't we all get together?


 His answer was again right our of the cheaters handbook, and your response was spot on. BTW, in cheaters speak, he just said that he did nothing wrong. That he intends to continue seeing her, and in fact you should meet her too. 

Here is the rub, you cannot win an argument with a cheater, because no matter how illogical what they say is, as long as they do not admit that the are wrong, they win. Admitting that they are wrong means ending the cheating, which they do not want to do. You must stop thinking that you need him to agree with you that sneaking out to see another woman behind your back is cheating, and instead tell him that you know that what he is doing is cheating, and that if he does not agree to stop all contact with this woman immediately, that you will take action accordingly. When he asks what you intend to do, tell him that he will find out soon enough. Then begin contacting an attorney to discuss divorce. Do not hide this fact. Tell you family that he is having an affair with this other woman that he calls his fantasy. Say it as a fact with confidence. Let him try to convince the family that sneaking around to see another woman behind your back is not a big deal. You must be willing to end the marriage in order to have a chance at saving it. If he is willing to let you divorce him because he has the right to keep her as a friend, then your marriage was going to be over anyways soon enough, but at least now you would know. Time is not on your side. The more time he has with her, the weaker your chance that he will pick you. I am sorry that you are here. Good luck,


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Happens every day of the year.

Right timing, combination of people, opportunity, marriage on cruise control taking each other for granted, BANG.

NO marriage is 100% immune.

I have witnessed many guys who started traveling who I would have thought totally solid and end up messing around.

Even had a co-worker who was a grandfather, married to his wife almost 30 years. Started traveling and had an affair with a Chinese woman 25 years younger than him. Hi divorced his wife, married Chinese girl, they had a kid and then she left him after screwing around on him. Karma big time.....



citygirl4344 said:


> I agree with you...it seems odd to me too. 35 years is a long time with many opportunities before now.


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

OP, put the hammer down and make hubby cough up all passwords. Tell him he's ruined trust.

The only thing that snaps someone out of this is harsh consquences.

He was hiding it. There's not one good reason to ever do that. And you know it.

Unequivocally drop the hammer on him. And, I would find out about the woman and tell her to stay the F away from your husband.

Boundaries big time between you and hubby. Don't be soft.




vtwife said:


> I have been married for 35 years. Recently I found out that my husband was developing a friendship with a woman I don't know. I found out by reading his texts (That was wrong, but I was bored and his phone was sitting there). Anyway, he is turning it around to me doing that and keeps saying I didn't do anything wrong but then why did he hide it. I haven't been a jealous person throughout our marriage, so if he would have told me about it up front I probably would have been fine and wanted to meet her. We are now at a point where neither of us is trusting the other. Am I off base to be mad about this?


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## New_Beginnings (Nov 16, 2015)

How did he say he meet this woman? 

I've heard the line of "thought you two could be friends". It's a lie and only to question your judgement, on if you're overreacting and you're not. 

A husband who wants to make a divorced woman their friend? It smells like bad news and what all do you have in common? How long has their new friendship begun and when was he planning on introducing you two... Sounds like he wants to be more than friends.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vtwife said:


> I have been married for 35 years. Recently I found out that my husband was developing a friendship with a woman I don't know. I found out by reading his texts (That was wrong, but I was bored and his phone was sitting there). Anyway, he is turning it around to me doing that and keeps saying I didn't do anything wrong but then why did he hide it. I haven't been a jealous person throughout our marriage, so if he would have told me about it up front I probably would have been fine and wanted to meet her. We are now at a point where neither of us is trusting the other. *Am I off base to be mad about this?*


I'd say no.

And _especially_ if he was hiding it.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> That is a very lame excuse. Do you really believe that was the reason? You are kidding yourself. You were purposely spying on your husband because you do not trust him. Admit that to yourself.


Totally believable, IMO.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vtwife said:


> One was that their meeting was serendipitous. She said she was a divorced woman so it was ok from her standpoint, but since he was married it felt sneaky. He replied that he had a fantasy that they could be friends. I found out that when I was out after work with my girlfriends he had gone to her apt and they had listened to music.... He didn't text her for 2 weeks, but then I saw on our cell phone bill that they texted back and forth this week. I told him about it last night that I saw her number on my bill and now am accused of spying.......things supposed to be private according to him. And I ."ruined" his day.


LOL. Don't let him turn this around on you.

So you picked up his phone and read some texts.

BIG. FREAKING. DEAL.

He was spending time alone w/ another woman, and in her apartment no less.

What's his explanation w/ respect to how this ISN'T inappropriate behavior for a married man?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

What TRY said is super advice.

I'm a man. A faithful man. The fact that he didn't text her a week after he went over to " listen to music" is odd. But, that is the lamest excuse I've heard. You caught him going over to another woman's private home and you accept this BS???

He used the term "fantasy".
You know exactly what that means.
Google the term "gas lighting". I had to. It's what I got from my cheating ex. 

Your husband has started an affair. Plain and simple. 
As Gus polinski said--- "big difference between privacy and secrecy." Tell your husband you know the difference and what he was doing is secrecy.

Whether it's 35 years or 35 months, what your husband is doing is wrong. You know it. Don't let him make you think you are crazy or paranoid. You are totally in the right. I would tell him his relationship is over with either you or she, and he can pick today or you will pick for him.
Out him with your relatives of he even considers stalling or denying.

Tell him you expect complete transparency with all phones, etc, and no pass codes you don't know.

Anything less, and you will have this problem again. He is NOT going to give up his "friend" unless he has to. I would make darn sure he has to.

Surely you realize this woman knows she shouldn't have a married man listening to music at her apartment or house. He certainly knows.

Bust him or have an open marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vtwife said:


> thanks everyone, I told him the word fantasy shouldn't be used in that context, that it applied something more. He said that I would like her, he was looking for her to be a friend for me......then why didn't we all get together?
> *You know when they turn it around on you, you get confused and start questioning yourself.* I am glad I found this forum to get feedback.


That's called gaslighting. Look it up.

Sounds like he's an old hand at it.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

jdawg2015 said:


> OP, put the hammer down and make hubby cough up all passwords. Tell him he's ruined trust.
> 
> The only thing that snaps someone out of this is harsh consquences.
> 
> ...



No, don't ask for the passwords, he'll "accidentally on purpose" forget to give you one of his accounts or sites...

You my love, need a keylogger to download all of that stuff for yourself.


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