# Is "Once a cheater, always a Cheater" an accurate quote?



## MAJDEATH

It seems that TAM is somewhat biased towards believing this quote at face value. I was curious if there is current research to back up this so-called "proven-fact" that is often expunged by Internet tough guys; the same guys who believe that you should dump her at the first sign of infidelity, if you are a "real" man.
I wonder if these guys have real marriages, real children, have real mortgages, and live in the real world of real human nature?

Can trust be rebuilt? Do we underestimate the ability to change? Are some people more likely to cheat again than others? I believe before a cheater can even consider changing their ways, they must work thru the issues that drove them to stray, which may take time thru IC.

I did find some current studies that showed about 70% of those who cheated in the past were now faithful in their current relationship. The study indicated that the 30% (repeat cheaters) shared some common dynamics, to include:
1 Genetic disposition (a certain gene is not present, and almost all shared the same lacking gene with a parent, who also cheated)
2 Reported to have "fallen out of love"
3 High level of self attractiveness 
4 High level of sex drive
5 In men, larger sized testicles were more likely to be repeat offenders, perhaps greater T levels


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## bandit.45

Here we go again.


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## NoMoreTears4me

I personally believe that once you do it once its much easier the second time. 

The guilt is easier to deal with. 

Me ex cheated on her first husband and she always rationalized it as he was cheating on her first. I thought I could change her and I did for a long time. But in the end she cheated on me and my children. It was easier cause she had done it before. She knew all the ways to alleviate her guilt. 

If you are a selfish person is it possible to one day not be a selfish person? How is selfish behavior unlearned and replaced? Can it be? I don't think so. I think in order for that to happen a major life epiphany must occur to change the person. Without that defining moment a cheater is capable of doing it again and again.


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## Hope1964

In the case of your wife? Hell yes.

In all cases? No.

Dude, when are you going to just admit you're in over your head?


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## becareful2

Number 2, 3, 4, and 5 can all be lumped in to a lack of integrity and morals. Can trust be rebuilt? Yes, but not totally. That trust will never be pure and complete or easy as before it was broken. People do have the ability to change, so "once a cheater, always a cheater" is not absolute. There are former waywards here whom I believe would never cheat again. However, your wife has cheated multiple times and is one of those people who is likely to cheat again. People like her don't hold marriage in high esteem. You should have gotten rid of her years ago but you didn't, so now you'll have to doubt her honesty every now and then. You will always wonder where she is and what she's doing.


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## MAJDEATH

I was inquiring about the populous in general, not my situation specifically. But to alleviate any doubt, by definition she would be in the 30% group. It is my problem to deal with, with full knowledge of the challenges.


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## Blondilocks

"I was curious if there is current research to back up this so-called "proven-fact" that is often expunged by Internet tough guys;"

Is the word you're looking for 'espouse' rather than expunge? When is your divorce hearing? I hope it's soon because these mental gymnastics are taking a toll on you.


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## 2ntnuf

MAJDEATH said:


> It seems that TAM is somewhat biased towards believing this quote at face value. I was curious if there is current research to back up this so-called "proven-fact" that is often expunged by Internet tough guys; the same guys who believe that you should dump her at the first sign of infidelity, if you are a "real" man.
> I wonder if these guys have real marriages, real children, have real mortgages, and live in the real world of real human nature?
> 
> I have no idea how I come across on here. I figure I am all over the place. Anyway, I do have real children. One may not be biologically mine. I am divorced from their mother. I've paid child support for...May or June? Not sure...1993 - June 2009. I think that's around 16 years. I do not have a mortgage. I could never afford one while paying the support, and do not have a good enough job now. I have no clue what the real world of real human nature is. I guess it means in a world of human weakness where folks make mistakes? I do, but I don't make the same mistakes as others because I am an individual, as you or any one else here or at home.
> 
> Can trust be rebuilt?
> 
> Sometimes.
> 
> Do we underestimate the ability to change?
> 
> Sometimes. Each of us has different abilities, just as each of us is unique.
> 
> Are some people more likely to cheat again than others?
> 
> Yes. See your own research below.
> 
> I believe before a cheater can even consider changing their ways, they must work thru the issues that drove them to stray, which may take time thru IC.
> 
> There are no guarantees. We try. We win some. We lose some. It is best learned by someone who desperately desires to change. Even then, it may not work. Or, it may. Who knows? You have to want to take that chance with them. That's not to say you'll find someone else who is any better. It's not to say you won't. There is more to it than just an innate or inbred (or some better descriptive word) need for sex from more than one person. It is also not all that easy for those who have been faithful, to stay faithful. Don't be fooled by pride. It takes work and a desire to do what is believed to be right. It also takes a deep belief that faithfulness is right. Not sure if that is taught or what? See your own post below.
> 
> I did find some current studies that showed about 70% of those who cheated in the past were now faithful in their current relationship.
> 
> I'd say that, too. I'd say I was being truthful and swear to it, when I answered. Some were telling the truth. How do you know which ones? Without really good surveillance from a private detective, you won't know. You can wait, watch, and be vigilant. You can have faith that you will be okay, if it all falls apart again. You can believe in yourself. You can't believe in anyone else, until they prove themselves over time. Even then, you can never be sure. I knew a guy that trusted himself so much, he decided to let out a bit of gas. Well, to his surprise, it wasn't just gas. He had intestinal flu. So, we can't even trust ourselves.
> 
> The study indicated that the 30% (repeat cheaters) shared some common dynamics, to include:
> 1 Genetic disposition (a certain gene is not present, and almost all shared the same lacking gene with a parent, who also cheated)
> 
> Kudos to scientists. How many men out there have asked their prospective bride to take a genetic test to see if they are missing this gene sequence? You won't know. Believe me. If you don't trust her enough not to ask, she won't marry you.
> 
> 2 Reported to have "fallen out of love"
> 
> Who'd a thunk it?
> 
> 3 High level of self attractiveness
> 
> You're kidding...self confidence is attractive? hmmm.....
> 
> 4 High level of sex drive
> 
> Gee...I thought these were low drive folks.....I guess I was mistaken again?
> 
> 
> 5 In men, larger sized testicles were more likely to be repeat offenders, perhaps greater T levels


Probably larger penis' too? Naaah, you jest....I'd never have believed it. :wink2: 

Haven't you tortured yourself enough, yet? When you start loving yourself again, you won't need to ask these silly things. You will know the answers. You are better than this. You just don't know it.


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## Ynot

I've read many of your threads. I wont comment on your situation. As you said that is your bed to lie in. Good luck.

As to cheating, no I do not believe "once a cheater, always a cheater" is a truism. I think that most cheating is a symptom of other underlying issues in a marriage. Yes 30% or so do repeat because of character or genetic flaws of some sort, but the majority would have never strayed had there not already been some other issue(s) present in the marriage which undermined commitment and trust within the marriage. I do think it would be extremely difficult to re-establish the trust and commitment after such a betrayal though. At least is would be for me.


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## Lostme

With friends that i know I think it is true, got with a cheater and the cheater cheated on them too. Also seems bunch of TAM folks got cheated on more than once by the same person.


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## *Deidre*

If the cheater is a sociopath/narcissist, then yes.


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## NoChoice

OP,
To be a "serial" cheater it really becomes a matter of cognizance. There is a poster here named losinghim. She had an encounter with a friend of her H that lasted less than 60 seconds. Why? Why only 60 seconds and why only the one time? What prevented her from continuing, from having a months long fling? She did. Her mind began extrapolating from compiled data and the projected outcome was not acceptable to her, in fact it repulsed her. Not only for what she was doing to her H but also what type of person it made her in her own mind.

Her H did not do the 180, in fact he did not even know about it for over 2 years. He finally found out when she told him. Why did she tell him? She had gotten away with it for 2 years, why tell now, what made her? She did. Once again her mind extrapolated from compiled data and projected an outcome that was not bearable to her. What do you suppose would have been the outcome for her if, instead of processing the information as she did, she simply reveled in her own pleasure and ego, giving no thought to the future, her H, her family, nothing but herself? Most likely she would have continued on that night and perhaps on into the future, with that OM or another.

Her mind was able to draw a very negative conclusion to her actions affecting not only herself but her H as well thereby displaying empathy, an emotion absent in underdeveloped intellects. 

Now try to imagine that the person is not just ignoring the processed thoughts regarding all the negative outcomes but rather is not capable of having them at all. Her mind simply does not process data in a way that allows her to recognize the harmful effects of her behavior. Now try to further imagine her mind trying to commit to a lifelong partnership.

When some people, certainly not all and perhaps not even most, contemplate marriage their mind extrapolates data from all known sources and projects a probable scenario. They consider monogamy and all that it entails, sharing resources and the accumulation of same, procreating and raising offspring and many other factors that comprise a lifelong union of two people. However, when a person of limited intellect tries to contemplate marriage the data is processed erroneously. Much of the data is simply not included and that which is is not projected accurately but rather in a unrealistic, fantasy like future. Then, when real life happens, they are soon very disillusioned with "marriage" and, since they haven't the intellect to carefully decide how to proceed, they act in the only way available to them, impetuously. And, in the absence of empathy, their actions are self serving and unilateral in nature.

They are simply unprepared for the commitment that is marriage and wholly unable to abide within its "rules" and therefore they "cheat".


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## MarriedDude

MAJDEATH said:


> It seems that TAM is somewhat biased towards believing this quote at face value. I was curious if there is current research to back up this so-called "proven-fact" that is often expunged by Internet tough guys; the same guys who believe that you should dump her at the first sign of infidelity, if you are a "real" man.
> I wonder if these guys have real marriages, real children, have real mortgages, and live in the real world of real human nature?
> 
> Can trust be rebuilt? Do we underestimate the ability to change? Are some people more likely to cheat again than others? I believe before a cheater can even consider changing their ways, they must work thru the issues that drove them to stray, which may take time thru IC.
> 
> I did find some current studies that showed about 70% of those who cheated in the past were now faithful in their current relationship. The study indicated that the 30% (repeat cheaters) shared some common dynamics, to include:
> 1 Genetic disposition (a certain gene is not present, and almost all shared the same lacking gene with a parent, who also cheated)
> 2 Reported to have "fallen out of love"
> 3 High level of self attractiveness
> 4 High level of sex drive
> 5 In men, larger sized testicles were more likely to be repeat offenders, perhaps greater T levels




First...No, I don't believe that...because people grow and change constantly throughout their lives. HOWEVER, I do believe in some circumstances, past behavior is indicative of future behavior. 

and on your study....you can use studies to prove anything you want to be true...I mean their sample size could have been 10. 

TBH...My testicles are simply enormous :smile2: and I'm not a cheater


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## sokillme

I think so, unless there is deep shame and a lot of work. Either way it's not worth the risk. It's the wrong question anyway, the right question is, is being with a cheater worth more then being alone, let me help you the answer is NO. If you take them back you are stuck with a person who was immoral at least for a time, and who lied and hurt you in one of the worst possible ways. How much is love worth from someone who could do that to you. Nothing. 

Now if you are talking about dating someone who cheated in the past, proceed at your own risk.

By the way what is the point. Open your marriage, you will be happier. And I think open marriages are dumb, but at least in your case it will give you wife something to worry about.


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## Evinrude58

There are so many women out there that are dying for a loyal man....
Why do you insist on fantasizing about the possibility that your wife will stop cheating?

Divorce her. That's what she wants. She can chase penises with no flack from you, and not feel so guilty about it. 

You, however, can chase women as well and find one that is starving for only you. Why are you depriving yourself of that opportunity?

It takes very little time and effort to see an attorney and start the process.

What you are doing to yourself is excruciating.

You need to start visualizing yourself happy, with a woman who loves you at your side, with no worries about infidelity lurking just out of sight. And then make it happen.

Thus wife of yours does not live you. She loves herself.


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## MAJDEATH

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> To be a "serial" cheater it really becomes a matter of cognizance. There is a poster here named losinghim. She had an encounter with a friend of her H that lasted less than 60 seconds. Why? Why only 60 seconds and why only the one time? What prevented her from continuing, from having a months long fling? She did. Her mind began extrapolating from compiled data and the projected outcome was not acceptable to her, in fact it repulsed her. Not only for what she was doing to her H but also what type of person it made her in her own mind.
> 
> Her H did not do the 180, in fact he did not even know about it for over 2 years. He finally found out when she told him. Why did she tell him? She had gotten away with it for 2 years, why tell now, what made her? She did. Once again her mind extrapolated from compiled data and projected an outcome that was not bearable to her. What do you suppose would have been the outcome for her if, instead of processing the information as she did, she simply reveled in her own pleasure and ego, giving no thought to the future, her H, her family, nothing but herself? Most likely she would have continued on that night and perhaps on into the future, with that OM or another.
> 
> Her mind was able to draw a very negative conclusion to her actions affecting not only herself but her H as well thereby displaying empathy, an emotion absent in underdeveloped intellects.
> 
> Now try to imagine that the person is not just ignoring the processed thoughts regarding all the negative outcomes but rather is not capable of having them at all. Her mind simply does not process data in a way that allows her to recognize the harmful effects of her behavior. Now try to further imagine her mind trying to commit to a lifelong partnership.
> 
> When some people, certainly not all and perhaps not even most, contemplate marriage their mind extrapolates data from all known sources and projects a probable scenario. They consider monogamy and all that it entails, sharing resources and the accumulation of same, procreating and raising offspring and many other factors that comprise a lifelong union of two people. However, when a person of limited intellect tries to contemplate marriage the data is processed erroneously. Much of the data is simply not included and that which is is not projected accurately but rather in a unrealistic, fantasy like future. Then, when real life happens, they are soon very disillusioned with "marriage" and, since they haven't the intellect to carefully decide how to proceed, they act in the only way available to them, impetuously. And, in the absence of empathy, their actions are self serving and unilateral in nature.
> 
> They are simply unprepared for the commitment that is marriage and wholly unable to abide within its "rules" and therefore they "cheat".


So your theory is, they lack the intellect to be faithful?


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## sokillme

Evinrude58 said:


> There are so many women out there that are dying for a loyal man....
> Why do you insist on fantasizing about the possibility that your wife will stop cheating?
> 
> Divorce her. That's what she wants. She can chase penises with no flack from you, and not feel so guilty about it.
> 
> You, however, can chase women as well and find one that is starving for only you. Why are you depriving yourself of that opportunity?
> 
> It takes very little time and effort to see an attorney and start the process.
> 
> What you are doing to yourself is excruciating.
> 
> You need to start visualizing yourself happy, with a woman who loves you at your side, with no worries about infidelity lurking just out of sight. And then make it happen.
> 
> Thus wife of yours does not live you. She loves herself.


You are mistakenly under the delusion that he doesn't like this. He obviously gets something from it. They are in a twisted codependent relationship and they both want it.


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## arbitrator

*Deidre* said:


> If the cheater is a sociopath/narcissist, then yes.


*Premise:

(1) My RSXW is an avowed narcissist.

(2) It was an accepted fact by some of her "friends" that she cheated on her first H.

(3) She then married and later cheated on me.

Conclusion:

RSXW knows, all too well, the unremorseful ropes of deceptive marital cheating, and if need be, could resort right back to it, all on a moments notice!
*


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## NoChoice

MAJDEATH said:


> So your theory is, they lack the intellect to be faithful?


In essence, yes.

Commitment, dedication, empathy, honor, morality, contentment. These things are not found in children nor in those with the minds of children. It takes a certain amount of cognizance to understand concepts such as these and to see them as more than just vague, undefined notions. Lacking the necessary maturity your wife, and mine, simply do not fully grasp them, they cannot.

Have you ever known a child that was fully content? Children soon tire of the toy they have and want another one. They move through childhood always wanting the next great thing and soon after they get it they're on to the next thing. Some people grow out of this state and mature into adults but many more do not. They always want more, bigger, better, faster, newer in their effort to find contentment, never understanding that contentment comes with maturity and the ability to accept and appreciate what you have as enough.

And, although some people do experience measurable growth throughout their life, attaining some wisdom, many more simply do not. They are forever enslaved by their adolescent minds never really having control over their destiny. They are forced to react to the consequences of their bad decisions rather than proactively making good decisions thereby thwarting the negative consequences.

Science tells us that mental development ceases in our mid twenties therefore, whatever synaptic network one has at that age is by and large what they will have for life. Change is rarely possible but highly improbable. Regrettably, this is why the phrase "once a cheater, always a cheater" is nearly always accurate.


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## *Deidre*

Evinrude58 said:


> There are so many women out there that are dying for a loyal man....
> Why do you insist on fantasizing about the possibility that your wife will stop cheating?
> 
> Divorce her. That's what she wants. She can chase penises with no flack from you, and not feel so guilty about it.
> 
> You, however, can chase women as well and find one that is starving for only you. Why are you depriving yourself of that opportunity?
> 
> It takes very little time and effort to see an attorney and start the process.
> 
> What you are doing to yourself is excruciating.
> 
> You need to start visualizing yourself happy, with a woman who loves you at your side, with no worries about infidelity lurking just out of sight. And then make it happen.
> 
> Thus wife of yours does not live you. She loves herself.


While it seems that way, I don't think Majdeath's wife loves herself, which is why she's not capable of loving Majdeath. Or any man, really. She just seeks to get validation from man after man after man...but the emptiness never gets filled. That's actually a true narcissist...they are empty inside, they don't love anyone, not even themselves, and they are never good at relationships, because they can't relate to people. They just use people. 

In some ways, I feel sorry for narcissists, but they are not capable of changing, if they are really narcissists. The only way to deal with them is to go no contact. I think Majdeath will spend his life thinking he can change her, or that if he follows her enough, or monitors her enough, she'll stop. She won't ever stop, because she doesn't care about Majdeath or her marriage.


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## *Deidre*

arbitrator said:


> *Premise:
> 
> (1) My RSXW is an avowed narcissist.
> 
> (2) It was an accepted fact by some of her "friends" that she cheated on her first H.
> 
> (3) She then married and later cheated on me.
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> RSXW knows, all too well, the unremorseful ropes of deceptive marital cheating, and if need be, could resort right back to it, all on a moments notice!
> *


I feel so bad for you, because you are a kind man, it seems. You deserve someone to be kind back to you. ((hug))


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## She'sStillGotIt

*Deidre* said:


> If the cheater is a sociopath/narcissist, then yes.


Not so.

Sometimes, they're just plain selfish a*ssholes with no dime-store psychology label affixed to them. :laugh:
I've known many men over my lifetime (coworker friends, guys in volunteer organizations, etc. etc.) who cheat purely for the variety and excitement of having sex with a different woman other than the one they married 15 or 20 years ago.

Not because they're personality-disordered or 'broken' or because their marriage is suffering.

It's because they're a*ssholes.


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## MJJEAN

MAJDEATH said:


> I was inquiring about the populous in general, not my situation specifically. But to alleviate any doubt, by definition she would be in the 30% group. It is my problem to deal with, with full knowledge of the challenges.


Of course people and their circumstances change. So, no, "once a cheater, always a cheater" doesn't apply to everyone. NOTHING applies to everyone.

I had multiple affairs during my dating days and multiple affairs during my 6 year marriage to my exH. I have not been unfaithful to DH and we'll be celebrating 17 years as a couple and 14 married later this month.


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## MattMatt

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> To be a "serial" cheater it really becomes a matter of cognizance. There is a poster here named losinghim. She had an encounter with a friend of her H that lasted less than 60 seconds. Why? Why only 60 seconds and why only the one time? What prevented her from continuing, from having a months long fling? She did. Her mind began extrapolating from compiled data and the projected outcome was not acceptable to her, in fact it repulsed her. Not only for what she was doing to her H but also what type of person it made her in her own mind.
> 
> Her H did not do the 180, in fact he did not even know about it for over 2 years. He finally found out when she told him. Why did she tell him? She had gotten away with it for 2 years, why tell now, what made her? She did. Once again her mind extrapolated from compiled data and projected an outcome that was not bearable to her. What do you suppose would have been the outcome for her if, instead of processing the information as she did, she simply reveled in her own pleasure and ego, giving no thought to the future, her H, her family, nothing but herself? Most likely she would have continued on that night and perhaps on into the future, with that OM or another.
> 
> Her mind was able to draw a very negative conclusion to her actions affecting not only herself but her H as well thereby displaying empathy, an emotion absent in underdeveloped intellects.
> 
> Now try to imagine that the person is not just ignoring the processed thoughts regarding all the negative outcomes but rather is not capable of having them at all. Her mind simply does not process data in a way that allows her to recognize the harmful effects of her behavior. Now try to further imagine her mind trying to commit to a lifelong partnership.
> 
> When some people, certainly not all and perhaps not even most, contemplate marriage their mind extrapolates data from all known sources and projects a probable scenario. They consider monogamy and all that it entails, sharing resources and the accumulation of same, procreating and raising offspring and many other factors that comprise a lifelong union of two people. However, when a person of limited intellect tries to contemplate marriage the data is processed erroneously. Much of the data is simply not included and that which is is not projected accurately but rather in a unrealistic, fantasy like future. Then, when real life happens, they are soon very disillusioned with "marriage" and, since they haven't the intellect to carefully decide how to proceed, they act in the only way available to them, impetuously. And, in the absence of empathy, their actions are self serving and unilateral in nature.
> 
> They are simply unprepared for the commitment that is marriage and wholly unable to abide within its "rules" and therefore they "cheat".


Yet her husband *is* a serial cheater. And a remorseless one at that.


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## Blondilocks

It is doubtful that anyone would dispute Albert Einstein's intellect and intelligence. Yet, he cheated on his first wife with his cousin and went so far as to move in with the woman before divorcing his first wife.

Intellect refers to the ability to identify, analyze, memorize and categorize. Intelligence brings the 'feelings' to the matter - taking one beyond the facts. In short, he was just an azzhole like so many others.


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## KillerClown

It takes a certain lack of moral compass to break a vow he made to a loved one (and God if the person is religious) and risk shame in the eyes of family and friends who gave blessing to the wedding. Is it possible to develop moral fortitude over time? Yes. But I have seen so few people who accomplished this feat. People are motivated to become more wealthy, fit, and accomplished but are less motivated to mature as a person.

It is also worth noting that just because a person stops cheating does not mean the person is no longer a cheater. If a cheater is caught in the act, he/she will be watched more carefully and would be less likely to have the opportunity.


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## NoChoice

MattMatt said:


> Yet her husband *is* a serial cheater. And a remorseless one at that.


Exactly, because he is a child mentally.


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## Evinrude58

I would definitely, from my experience, say that low intelligence and cheating have a directly proportional relationship.
Someone posted that nothing fits everyone-- I agree with that statement. But I think low intelligence and cheating are probably a likely pair.


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## Blondilocks

I suspect that intellect and intelligence have nothing to do with cheating. IMO, it's more about a person's morals.


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## Emerging Buddhist

I believe it's more an "honor among thieves" reality... lack of loving yourself and being drawn to those who lack it where you imitate those with the same said poor values and then begin following their poor judgements because, cheaters encourage and protect cheaters.

We had a circle of 7 couples as friends a long time ago... 1 of those men was what we would classify as a serial cheater as we found out over time.

As we discovered over a couple years it became 2 that lacked judgement, then 4 and we quit hanging out with that group at that stage.

Today, we are the only couple still married to the same person, some married thrice.

These were brilliant people lacking no intelligence in many ways but one obvious area... and the spouses who chose their boundaries moved forward without them.

So if you are a cheater surrounded by cheaters, chances are you will continue to be... if you do not allow cheaters into your inner circle of trust after you have strayed and learned a hard lesson of understanding why being penitent to self and others, then you will not.

Short answer to the thread title... no, I do not believe so.


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## Relationship Teacher

MAJDEATH said:


> It seems that TAM is somewhat biased towards believing this quote at face value. I was curious if there is current research to back up this so-called "proven-fact" that is often expunged by Internet tough guys; the same guys who believe that you should dump her at the first sign of infidelity, if you are a "real" man.
> I wonder if these guys have real marriages, real children, have real mortgages, and live in the real world of real human nature?
> 
> Can trust be rebuilt? Do we underestimate the ability to change? Are some people more likely to cheat again than others? I believe before a cheater can even consider changing their ways, they must work thru the issues that drove them to stray, which may take time thru IC.
> 
> I did find some current studies that showed about 70% of those who cheated in the past were now faithful in their current relationship. The study indicated that the 30% (repeat cheaters) shared some common dynamics, to include:
> 1 Genetic disposition (a certain gene is not present, and almost all shared the same lacking gene with a parent, who also cheated)
> 2 Reported to have "fallen out of love"
> 3 High level of self attractiveness
> 4 High level of sex drive
> 5 In men, larger sized testicles were more likely to be repeat offenders, perhaps greater T levels


I don't rule anyone out. If we judge by statistics, then we'd condemn all to 100% or 0%. I consider stats to increase my success rates and ensure my approach is sound. Beyond that, we have stupifyingly straightforward processes to guide individuals to positive outcomes. We determine our future by processes. Thus, we work with cognitions and activity to mold the conscious and unconscious. 

Done right, anyone can change. This tends to require involvement from the betrayed. It can and often works, leaving even better relationships in place. More than 95% of the time, the betrayed has some blame for the disconnection.

It comes down to there being residual love and having a positive past as proof that there can be a future.


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## Spotthedeaddog

MAJDEATH said:


> It seems that TAM is somewhat biased towards believing this quote at face value. I was curious if there is current research to back up this so-called "proven-fact" that is often expunged by Internet tough guys; the same guys who believe that you should dump her at the first sign of infidelity, if you are a "real" man.
> I wonder if these guys have real marriages, real children, have real mortgages, and live in the real world of real human nature?
> 
> Can trust be rebuilt? Do we underestimate the ability to change? Are some people more likely to cheat again than others? I believe before a cheater can even consider changing their ways, they must work thru the issues that drove them to stray, which may take time thru IC.
> 
> I did find some current studies that showed about 70% of those who cheated in the past were now faithful in their current relationship. The study indicated that the 30% (repeat cheaters) shared some common dynamics, to include:
> 1 Genetic disposition (a certain gene is not present, and almost all shared the same lacking gene with a parent, who also cheated)
> 2 Reported to have "fallen out of love"
> 3 High level of self attractiveness
> 4 High level of sex drive
> 5 In men, larger sized testicles were more likely to be repeat offenders, perhaps greater T levels


Since you clearly need something to occupy your time and mind, instead of wondering these things, study a few university level statistic papers or pop over to "Khan Academy" website and study there.
With a better understanding of how statistics works you will see how the groupings work and how the statistics are _actually_ applied - and thus how meaningless most such "results" are.

eg (4) is actually a symptom of cheating, not a cause. While (2) is completed self-selected, and if asked many of those giving that answer would have some seriously problematic definitions of "love".

Indeed, a simple small sample of self-selected answers taken from this thread highlights the majority of causal factors. ie a "Purposeful" sample selection method, drawn from a selection of people who have experience in the matter, and whom interact with large numbers of similar qualified people, with an interest in gathering data in that area.

Things which contribute:
(1) Self-orientation about desires (can be in any of the relationship partners. e.g. if ones' partner is obsessive about their work, it skyrockets the chance one of the partners will cheat. In TAM that's the HNHN factor
(2) Morals. A person who is strict, and rigid about their own adult moral patterns, is less likely to cheat.
(3) Communication without dependence. Someone is willing and able to _honestly_ communicate their internal reality is less likely to suffer from difficulties in (1) and (2).

I'd put the ratio of importance (eg if you're doing a regression and weighting the factors) as 80% (1), 16% (2), 3% (3). Basically, and I think cheaters will confirm, that pretty much "they were just being inconsiderate *******s"


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## MAJDEATH

In my situation, there is a 6th category: "cheating with permission". I stupidly told her if she needed to deal with loneliness while I was deployed, I would be OK with her having a BF. I should have told her to buy a dog.


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## MSalmoides

...


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## Ynot

MAJDEATH said:


> In my situation, there is a 6th category: "cheating with permission". I stupidly told her if she needed to deal with loneliness while I was deployed, I would be OK with her having a BF. I should have told her to buy a dog.


So, are you deployed? Because it sounds like there was a condition attached to your permission.


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## MSalmoides

...


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## Openminded

MAJDEATH said:


> In my situation, there is a 6th category: "cheating with permission". I stupidly told her if she needed to deal with loneliness while I was deployed, I would be OK with her having a BF. I should have told her to buy a dog.


You cheated too, IIRC. So, no, if that's the real story then why would that count. And why would you even keep bringing it up if you both did the same thing. Let it go. 

However, she wasn't "cheating with permission" in the latest situation. That's different.


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## MJJEAN

MAJDEATH said:


> In my situation, there is a 6th category: "cheating with permission". I stupidly told her if she needed to deal with loneliness while I was deployed, I would be OK with her having a BF. I should have told her to buy a dog.


DH was a regional and over the road truck driver for years before he got a local job. I was home alone with 3 young children for days on end. When H could come home, he was often only able to be here here for a day or two, most of which he used to catch up on sleep, and then he'd be gone again. Thank God for cell phones and hands free devices or we'd never have survived it.

I got myself an American Bulldog pup. And then a Pit Bull. Then I added a Basset Hound. I got the 2nd Pit Bull pup a year after the Basset. Husbands being away from home saying "Get a dog if you're lonely!" is how at least 60% of Crazy Dog Ladies are made.

I might have mentioned it in another thread of yours or elsewhere on the internet, but when I was having affair after affair in my first marriage I honestly did think it didn't bother exH much because he stayed. If he was that damn upset about it, he'd have left. Hell, he even had affairs of his own. I figured, since he stayed, that his occasional complaints, emotional outbursts, etc. were just venting. He certainly never DID anything, so he must be fine, right?

Your wife has been routinely cheating on you for 20+ years and you've stayed. You even told her it was ok at one point. Of course she's going to keep on keepin on with it. You clearly aren't going anywhere. It's quite possible she thinks as I once did. "It must not be THAT big of a deal, he's still here." and nothing you SAY will EVER change that perception. Divorce papers, a real physical separation to different residences and her having to live and pay bills alone MIGHT, but old habits are hard to break.


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## Herschel

I do not think that "Once a cheater, always a cheater" is valid. Like other have said, it is likely easier for them to cheat again, but obviously anyone can change their tune. However, I feel like the following statement is always true (besides the literal meaning of it). 

"Once cheated on, always cheated on." 

They may never cheat again, but most of the time it doesn't matter. You were cheated on by them. Even if they aren't a cheater anymore. I don't know how anyone can continue to stay with someone after cheating occurs and have a happy and healthy life.


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## GusPolinski

It's probably accurate enough that it works well as a general rule.

Still, there will be exceptions.

Your WW doesn't appear to be one of them, though.


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## MrsHolland

Why do you post this stuff in the "long term success in marriage" forum? Even if people stay married till death, if cheating was involved it is not/was not a successful long term marriage. It was co dependancy and f.uckupendness holding people together.


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## NoChoice

MAJDEATH said:


> In my situation, there is a 6th category: "cheating with permission". I stupidly told her if she needed to deal with loneliness while I was deployed, I would be OK with her having a BF. I should have told her to buy a dog.


Sir, in a real adult relationship she would have been mortified at your suggestion. She would have not only declined to have a BF but would most probably have initiated a conversation with you in an effort to understand your comment. She may have also been somewhat insulted that you would think so little of her as to assume that she could be unfaithful under any conditions.

Instead, the childlike mind in her head said "oh goodie a new BF (giggle, giggle)". The ramifications of such an act supersede her ability to grasp. Regrettable.


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## Blondilocks

Maj's telling her that he would be ok with her having a boyfriend told her that he didn't care enough about her to keep her to himself.


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## MAJDEATH

MrsHolland said:


> Why do you post this stuff in the "long term success in marriage" forum? Even if people stay married till death, if cheating was involved it is not/was not a successful long term marriage. It was co dependancy and f.uckupendness holding people together.


I have a feeling that cheating happens more than we care to admit in long term marriages. It doesn't mean that it wasn't worth it to stay married and realize the positive benefits.

The question is, is there a greater chance to repeat compared to the first time? It might actually be less if the WS got caught or confessed, due to increased awareness/oversight by the BS.


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## MAJDEATH

NoChoice said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my situation, there is a 6th category: "cheating with permission". I stupidly told her if she needed to deal with loneliness while I was deployed, I would be OK with her having a BF. I should have told her to buy a dog.
> 
> 
> 
> Sir, in a real adult relationship she would have been mortified at your suggestion. She would have not only declined to have a BF but would most probably have initiated a conversation with you in an effort to understand your comment. She may have also been somewhat insulted that you would think so little of her as to assume that she could be unfaithful under any conditions.
> 
> Instead, the childlike mind in her head said "oh goodie a new BF (giggle, giggle)". The ramifications of such an act supersede her ability to grasp. Regrettable.
Click to expand...

Try telling your spouse that you have chosen a career field where you have to be gone for months or years at a time. Is it a reasonable expectation to assume they won't stray? Especially if they suffer from a condition that is exasperated by abandonment (which we found out later).


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## browser

MAJDEATH said:


> The question is, is there a greater chance to repeat compared to the first time? It might actually be less if the WS got caught or confessed, due to increased awareness/oversight by the BS.


Perhaps, but that's no way to live. I can't sleep well with one eye open.


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## Vinnydee

Read this: Once A Cheater, Always A Cheater? Marriage Therapists Weigh In | The Huffington Post

It requires a lot of conditions for cheaters to stop cheating and I think what we see here, are spouses not willing to undergo a lot of counseling or open mindedness. How many wives in the posts here blame their husbands for their cheating? To stop cheating, a lot of things have to fall into place. This website is for those who are not aware of their options or they would not be asking.

I cheated and did not blame my wife, did not love her less, but have always had multiple women in my life. My wife knew my reputation before we married. We ended up having a non monogamous marriage. Not many sex partners, less than 10 in over 44 years of our marriage. Most of our marriage was spent with a girlfriend we knew since our teen years and both treated as family even before it turned sexual. I am one of those guys who is poly and could not survive in a monogamous relationship. Turns out that my wife is bisexual and also needed other women in her life. Once she accepted that she did not have to be the prototypical faithful wife, she allowed her repressed sexuality to come out. We eventually choose to have a fidelitous poly triad for 30 years so we were like a monogamous couple except that there were three of us. 

My wife and I agreed that we would have divorced had we decided to be strictly monogamous. As for statistics, I spent a good part of my life working for government agencies gathering statistics. I made them come out in favor of whatever my employer wanted them to be. I do not trust statistics that much. The statistics of me needing a gun for self protection are extremely low and yet I have needed it twice. The statistics of a college drop out ending up making more than most internist, lawyers and airline pilots, is very small and yet I make more then they do. I can go on and on about statistics. To understand them you need to find out how they obtain their information and the size and diversity of the sample. For instance marriage counsellor only track their patients for a year after they end counselling. No one knows if they go on to cheat again beyond a year. People are reluctant to tell the truth when the questions are personal. They tend to say what they wish they were than what they regularly do.

Ever boss I worked for, 5 of them, cheated more than once, male or female. My friends who cheated are on their 3rd and even 4th wives. They never stopped cheating. Every person I knew who cheated, kept on doing it and they were never a part of a survey. There is one truth that is glossed over by marriage counselors; a person's past behavior is a very good indicator of their future behavior. This is why when there is a robbery, the police round up all the robbers in their system. People can change, but most cannot. To stop cheating you have to do A,B,C,D and then you will not cheat again. The problem is that few are willing to do all those things. Read the article above and see all the conditions that have to exist to stop cheating. I had my ex fiancee and an ex girlfriend cheat on me, my only two relationships before my marriage. I was unwilling to live the rest of my life suspicious of them and having my stomach in knots every time they went out for the night without me or spent a few hours at the mall without me. Statistics do no show why they stop cheating nor do they mention how cheaters do keep on cheating but do not get caught again so their spouses think they are no longer cheating. Marriage should not be so hard that both spouses have to work so hard at it. Many stay married for the sake of the children or their spouse looks the other way. Sometimes the spouse gives permission to the cheater to date others. I have dated a few wives like this. In fact my girlfriend of 30 years was married to a doctor who gave her his OK to continue with both me and my wife. As I said, the stats depend on who was surveyed and if they were given lie detector test to verify their answers. Every time I was asked if I cheated, I said no. My wife never told anyone but her lovers that she is bi and would not even say so in a survey. 

I minored in psychology and I new a few professional Psychologist in my adulthood. One of my group of close friends did Marriage Counselling and his wife cheated and they divorced. After that he quit saying he did not believe what he was telling others and himself about marriage. If you are going to believe statistics, just do some research and for every stat you get, you can find studies that say the opposite. Most, if not all studies are flawed and there is no way in heck you can get statistics of all those who cheat since most do not seek marriage counselling and are off the radar. People like me and my friends. Hillary was supposed to win the election. All that statistics said so.


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## Taxman

I disagree with the statement, once you do it once, it is easier the next time. I'm sorry, but I view my affair as a cautionary tale. I see it as a massive f**k-up, and something to be avoided. To that end, I do not get overly "friendly" with women other than my wife. Hell, I do not even make off-color remarks in the office (I have a business partner that does, however, and I'm scared sh*tless of having a staff sue us for harrassment. He gets my objections regularly, and next step will be for him to indemnify me in case this ever happens.)


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## Ericlobster

Not really. If you take away the things which made the person cheat, most likely they won't. Most guys cheat cuz of stress, lack of stress it's in our DNA to f other women. Sorry you can't change that. All guys want to do it. However, most guys just watch porn and then let that feeling go.


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## *Deidre*

I used to think that ''once a cheater, always a cheater'' was almost always true, but after reading some positive stories on here of wayward spouses who turned their lives and marriages around by being truly remorseful and did the hard work of earning the trust back from their BS, I have changed my mind on that. It is possible for people to change, if they really want to.


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## She'sStillGotIt

Ericlobster said:


> Not really. If you take away the things which made the person cheat, most likely they won't. Most guys cheat cuz of stress, lack of stress it's in our DNA to f other women. Sorry you can't change that. All guys want to do it. However, most guys just watch porn and then let that feeling go.


I've known MANY MANY guys over the years who cheat for variety. 

MANY.

What can you *possibly* 'take away' from guys who sport-**** whenever they get the opportunity that's supposedly _making_ them cheat? Their desire for 'strange?' Their working plumbing? Honestly, what can you possibly take away from them that's causing their desire for variety?


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## hylton7

no its not always true.


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## azteca1986

Ericlobster said:


> Not really. If you take away the things which made the person cheat, most likely they won't.


If by "things which made the person cheat" you mean bull**** excuses, then I think you're right.



> All guys want to do it.


No we don't. Lots of us are perfectly capable of making a commitment and sticking to it.


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## Kerf

There are exceptions to every rule.There are people who have done worse things in life.... like horrible and brutal crimes, but managed to change into good human beings.Having paid the consequences first of course and then fix themselves with therapy.


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## Diana7

MAJDEATH said:


> It seems that TAM is somewhat biased towards believing this quote at face value. I was curious if there is current research to back up this so-called "proven-fact" that is often expunged by Internet tough guys; the same guys who believe that you should dump her at the first sign of infidelity, if you are a "real" man.
> I wonder if these guys have real marriages, real children, have real mortgages, and live in the real world of real human nature?
> 
> Can trust be rebuilt? Do we underestimate the ability to change? Are some people more likely to cheat again than others? I believe before a cheater can even consider changing their ways, they must work thru the issues that drove them to stray, which may take time thru IC.
> 
> I did find some current studies that showed about 70% of those who cheated in the past were now faithful in their current relationship. The study indicated that the 30% (repeat cheaters) shared some common dynamics, to include:
> 1 Genetic disposition (a certain gene is not present, and almost all shared the same lacking gene with a parent, who also cheated)
> 2 Reported to have "fallen out of love"
> 3 High level of self attractiveness
> 4 High level of sex drive
> 5 In men, larger sized testicles were more likely to be repeat offenders, perhaps greater T levels


I think this gene stuff is nonsense. My father and his father both cheated, but neither my brother or I have or will. 
If you have integrity and strong moral values you wont cheat no matter what. if you have cheated once you can and may well cheat again because you have shown that faithfulness to you isn't that important and that you have low moral values. I would never trust a man who had cheated on a previous wife/partner.
Once that boundary has been crossed, it shows that person is capable of doing that again.


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## Diana7

Ericlobster said:


> Not really. If you take away the things which made the person cheat, most likely they won't. Most guys cheat cuz of stress, lack of stress it's in our DNA to f other women. Sorry you can't change that. All guys want to do it. However, most guys just watch porn and then let that feeling go.


That's so not true. many men love and are happy with their wives and would never cheat. Many wouldn't cheat no matter what. Also many don't turn to porn either.


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## MAJDEATH

Vinnydee said:


> Read this: Once A Cheater, Always A Cheater? Marriage Therapists Weigh In | The Huffington Post
> 
> It requires a lot of conditions for cheaters to stop cheating and I think what we see here, are spouses not willing to undergo a lot of counseling or open mindedness. How many wives in the posts here blame their husbands for their cheating? To stop cheating, a lot of things have to fall into place. This website is for those who are not aware of their options or they would not be asking.
> 
> I cheated and did not blame my wife, did not love her less, but have always had multiple women in my life. My wife knew my reputation before we married. We ended up having a non monogamous marriage. Not many sex partners, less than 10 in over 44 years of our marriage. Most of our marriage was spent with a girlfriend we knew since our teen years and both treated as family even before it turned sexual. I am one of those guys who is poly and could not survive in a monogamous relationship. Turns out that my wife is bisexual and also needed other women in her life. Once she accepted that she did not have to be the prototypical faithful wife, she allowed her repressed sexuality to come out. We eventually choose to have a fidelitous poly triad for 30 years so we were like a monogamous couple except that there were three of us.
> 
> My wife and I agreed that we would have divorced had we decided to be strictly monogamous. As for statistics, I spent a good part of my life working for government agencies gathering statistics. I made them come out in favor of whatever my employer wanted them to be. I do not trust statistics that much. The statistics of me needing a gun for self protection are extremely low and yet I have needed it twice. The statistics of a college drop out ending up making more than most internist, lawyers and airline pilots, is very small and yet I make more then they do. I can go on and on about statistics. To understand them you need to find out how they obtain their information and the size and diversity of the sample. For instance marriage counsellor only track their patients for a year after they end counselling. No one knows if they go on to cheat again beyond a year. People are reluctant to tell the truth when the questions are personal. They tend to say what they wish they were than what they regularly do.
> 
> Ever boss I worked for, 5 of them, cheated more than once, male or female. My friends who cheated are on their 3rd and even 4th wives. They never stopped cheating. Every person I knew who cheated, kept on doing it and they were never a part of a survey. There is one truth that is glossed over by marriage counselors; a person's past behavior is a very good indicator of their future behavior. This is why when there is a robbery, the police round up all the robbers in their system. People can change, but most cannot. To stop cheating you have to do A,B,C,D and then you will not cheat again. The problem is that few are willing to do all those things. Read the article above and see all the conditions that have to exist to stop cheating. I had my ex fiancee and an ex girlfriend cheat on me, my only two relationships before my marriage. I was unwilling to live the rest of my life suspicious of them and having my stomach in knots every time they went out for the night without me or spent a few hours at the mall without me. Statistics do no show why they stop cheating nor do they mention how cheaters do keep on cheating but do not get caught again so their spouses think they are no longer cheating. Marriage should not be so hard that both spouses have to work so hard at it. Many stay married for the sake of the children or their spouse looks the other way. Sometimes the spouse gives permission to the cheater to date others. I have dated a few wives like this. In fact my girlfriend of 30 years was married to a doctor who gave her his OK to continue with both me and my wife. As I said, the stats depend on who was surveyed and if they were given lie detector test to verify their answers. Every time I was asked if I cheated, I said no. My wife never told anyone but her lovers that she is bi and would not even say so in a survey.
> 
> I minored in psychology and I new a few professional Psychologist in my adulthood. One of my group of close friends did Marriage Counselling and his wife cheated and they divorced. After that he quit saying he did not believe what he was telling others and himself about marriage. If you are going to believe statistics, just do some research and for every stat you get, you can find studies that say the opposite. Most, if not all studies are flawed and there is no way in heck you can get statistics of all those who cheat since most do not seek marriage counselling and are off the radar. People like me and my friends. Hillary was supposed to win the election. All that statistics said so.


Gee Vinny, it sounds like on one hand you are saying that statistics are never accurate, so never say "always a cheater". And on the other hand, you are saying (based on your experience) that everybody you know cheats, including you and your spouse.


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## sokillme

Ericlobster said:


> All guys want to do it.


I would rather cut of my arm.


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## aine

MAJDEATH said:


> In my situation, there is a 6th category: "cheating with permission". I stupidly told her if she needed to deal with loneliness while I was deployed, I would be OK with her having a BF. I should have told her to buy a dog.



IMO as a woman I would hear this comment as 'you do not matter that much to me, it is ok if you **** other guys, I'd be down with that.'
Most woman want to be secure, be needed, be the exclusive person for their husbands, they all denote his love.


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## Remee81

MAJDEATH said:


> It seems that TAM is somewhat biased towards believing this quote at face value. I was curious if there is current research to back up this so-called "proven-fact" that is often expunged by Internet tough guys; the same guys who believe that you should dump her at the first sign of infidelity, if you are a "real" man.
> I wonder if these guys have real marriages, real children, have real mortgages, and live in the real world of real human nature?
> 
> Can trust be rebuilt? Do we underestimate the ability to change? Are some people more likely to cheat again than others? I believe before a cheater can even consider changing their ways, they must work thru the issues that drove them to stray, which may take time thru IC.
> 
> I did find some current studies that showed about 70% of those who cheated in the past were now faithful in their current relationship. The study indicated that the 30% (repeat cheaters) shared some common dynamics, to include:
> 1 Genetic disposition (a certain gene is not present, and almost all shared the same lacking gene with a parent, who also cheated)
> 2 Reported to have "fallen out of love"
> 3 High level of self attractiveness
> 4 High level of sex drive
> 5 In men, larger sized testicles were more likely to be repeat offenders, perhaps greater T levels




I believe if someone makes one mistake, and regrets it completely, wants to stay in their relationship and is willing to do whatever it takes to make it better, then they should be given the chance. Mistakes do happen, and can be fixed. If it wasn't a one time thing or they do it again, no, see ya, bye!y ex cheated all the time, and I mean all the time, with my friends my family, strangers...it was bad. Dumped him like a hot potato. My DH did something stupid years ago, and did whatever necessary to fix our relationship. I still check his phone occasionally, but have never found anything hinky. I even look in deleted messages. I have find my iPhone, and he always has it on. He never complains if I want to look at his phone, and he can look at mine whenever he pleases. Our relationship is strong and I feel strongly he won't ever be that stupid again. If he does do that again, GONE!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tomara

Once a cheater most often is always a cheater. I do believe that u can make a huge mistake and learn but those are the rare. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DelicateFlower

MAJDEATH said:


> I was inquiring about the populous in general, not my situation specifically. But to alleviate any doubt, by definition she would be in the 30% group. It is my problem to deal with, with full knowledge of the challenges.


No it's not true. 
First of all, nothing is ever "always" or "forever" or "never". Psychologists call this kind of thinking a "mental trap". There are lots of them that I won't get into and they teach people how to recognize and rethink mental traps. The only thing that truly is ALWAYS is death. 

I met my husband when he was 33. He lost his virginity at 13 to his 18 year old babysitter and from that moment on attributed "sex" with a sense of feeling wanted, self worth, happiness; call it whatever. It set him on a two decade journey of bouncing from woman to woman and cheating on nearly all of them. 
He had NO CLUE what it meant to love a woman, care about what she wanted; needed etc. (he openly acknowledges this now). 
He had HUNDREDS of partners, one night stands, girlfriends, you name it. He WAS ruled by his penis!!! He even chose his career as a hairstylist because he thought it would give him access to as much "pooty" as possible. 
He cheated on his first wife, multiple times. 
Cheated on his second wife AT THEIR WEDDING RECEPTION WITH THE MAID OF HONOR IN THE BATHROOM. Also slept with his second wife's step-mother AND sister. 

Cheating was his M.O!

Until he had what he called "The Black Summer" when Pinocchio became a real boy and grew a freakin' conscience. He knew his second wife was a good woman and she wanted to make the marriage work but he knew he had to come clean to her. He did, it shattered her world. Something clicked and he felt horrid about how he treated her and her family. 
He sat on the beach one day and asked God "I deserve everything I get now. If I never have a woman love me again, I deserve that. BUT, if you ever see fit to give me another chance, I will never dishonor her."

Two years later he met me. 
We've been together for 23 years and I know, beyond any doubt, this man has NOT ONCE cheated on me and he's had plenty of opportunity to do so. He's the world's WORST liar and even through some super difficult times with sex (basically all 23 years) I've told him "GO find a woman who pleases you. You have my blessing!" He wouldn't do it. He's told me, he has enough karma from the years before me and he will not dishonor me. He often tells me our bad sex life is his karma for all those years. 

Many people may say I'm totally blind, gullible and kidding myself if I believe he's always been faithful but truly and honestly, if they ever met the man they would know in 15 seconds he is so stupidiculously dedicated to me it's almost suffocating. The idea of cheating on me may have been said in anger but doing it has never crossed his mind. (and I know I said "never", it's complicated) 

Now, is he the norm? No, not in a million pancakes on Sunday. He's probably the exception but I do believe there are others out there like him. Hell, there are people who's marriages ROCKED and were stronger after one cheated. The point is, 
Once a cheater
doesn't always equate to always a cheater.


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## Bobby5000

I think there are different categories. 

1. Man who believes in multiple women. He associates affairs with validation of his worth. He sees something important in seeing multiple women even after marriage. Some politicians on both sides seem to be here. Can't change this guy. Similar to this is the women impressed by her own ability to attract men, connected with a confused self-image, she has multiple affairs and will not change too. 

2. Man with a bad marriage and perhaps little sex. Stuck in what he sees as a bad marriage, he might be different in a loving relationship. 

3. Woman with unfeeling or unresponsive husband. A friend had an affair, her husband did not change, the affair was not fulfilling, and she decided to adapt to a difficult husband in an 80/20 marriage.


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## azteca1986

DelicateFlower said:


> No it's not true.
> First of all, nothing is ever "always" or "forever" or "never". Psychologists call this kind of thinking a "mental trap". There are lots of them that I won't get into and they teach people how to recognize and rethink mental traps. The only thing that truly is ALWAYS is death.


I wonder if this applies to the more pleasant things in life?

If through a series of thought processes, behaviours and actions I get awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics, would I also be guilty of falling into a "mental trap"? Afterall, there will be another winner next year, but I would consider myself to ALWAYS be a Nobel Prize Winner.



> The point is, Once a cheater doesn't always equate to always a cheater.


I can understand your position, but another way to describe your husband's situation is that he's a cheater that isn't _currently_ cheating (And long may that continue).


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## Vinnydee

It was true of the two girlfriends, one a fiancé, who cheated on me. It was true of several of our friends, both the wife and husband and in one case both at the same time. They are on their 3rd or 4th marriages due to infidelity. One of my best friends married a girl who was married when she was seeing him. She in turn cheated on him too as I warned him about. People have such big egos that despite a person's past cheating record, they think that it will not happen to them since they are better than all the others. Good luck with that.

My sister is on her third husband after cheating on her first two. I refused to reconcile with the girls who cheated on me and my friend who cheated wasted money on counseling since adults rarely change who they are. They had short term success because they were trying to act as they were told to act but it was always an act and soon they reverted to their true nature. I think counseling can help a few but only if the cheater takes 100% responsibility. If they say that you drove them to cheat or it was an accident or that you were always working and too busy for them, odds are that it is through. 

Whether they will cheat again or not does not matter to me. The problem will always be not being able to trust them since they proved they were untrustworthy despite vowing otherwise. They are also admitted liars and therefore why should I believe them now when they said that we were together until death do we part. Proven untrustworthy and liars do not make good mates. I did not want to have a knot in my stomach every time they came home late, went out with the girls, were away on business trips or started to do things out of the ordinary and were secretive about phone calls and text. Eventually they will resent you not trusting them and asking to see their cell phones. They will also get tired of you asking them where they were and why when you called they said she was not there. They will have to put up with your questions about their affair or one night stand and of course, they will lie and minimize the damage. 

For me, whether she cheats again or not, I will feel the same and I do not want to live like that. Trust takes a very long time to heal and even then it is never the same as it originally was. You will always be suspicious and have to check up on her all the time. In the end I do not want to live with someone that made me worry when she was away from me.


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## RandomDude

Vinnydee said:


> Trust takes a very long time to heal and even then it is never the same as it originally was. You will always be suspicious and have to check up on her all the time. In the end I do not want to live with someone that made me worry when she was away from me.


Exactly, regardless of the whole "once a cheater, always a cheater" thing, personally if the trust is no longer 100% I can't justify any such commitment anymore. All the committed relationships I've had I never had to deal with a cheater, maybe I just had a good picker - and I am picky, but the whole 'compromising for less' attitude when it comes to cheaters just baffles me.


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## She'sStillGotIt

I had to chuckle at the OP's stat that approximately 70% of people who had cheated in the past hadn't cheated again.

Does anyone HONESTLY expect these people to tell the truth if they've gotten away with it a second time? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Let's be honest here. We're basically depending on proven LIARS to provide accurate and truthful data. Good Lord.


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## TAMAT

Well perhaps an unconfessed cheater is always a cheater too.

Same as a cheater who feels they were justified after being caught or has no empathy for the betrayed spouse.


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## sa58

Once a cheater always a cheater?
Do they just get better at covering their tracks?
Is it really ever the same after cheating?


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## GusPolinski

TAMAT said:


> *Well perhaps an unconfessed cheater is always a cheater too.*
> 
> Same as a cheater who feels they were justified after being caught or has no empathy for the betrayed spouse.


Yep.


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## GusPolinski

DelicateFlower said:


> No it's not true.
> First of all, nothing is ever "always" or "forever" or "never". Psychologists call this kind of thinking a "mental trap". There are lots of them that I won't get into and they teach people how to recognize and rethink mental traps. The only thing that truly is ALWAYS is death.
> 
> I met my husband when he was 33. He lost his virginity at 13 to his 18 year old babysitter and from that moment on attributed "sex" with a sense of feeling wanted, self worth, happiness; call it whatever. It set him on a two decade journey of bouncing from woman to woman and cheating on nearly all of them.
> He had NO CLUE what it meant to love a woman, care about what she wanted; needed etc. (he openly acknowledges this now).
> He had HUNDREDS of partners, one night stands, girlfriends, you name it. He WAS ruled by his penis!!! He even chose his career as a hairstylist because he thought it would give him access to as much "pooty" as possible.
> He cheated on his first wife, multiple times.
> Cheated on his second wife AT THEIR WEDDING RECEPTION WITH THE MAID OF HONOR IN THE BATHROOM. Also slept with his second wife's step-mother AND sister.
> 
> Cheating was his M.O!
> 
> Until he had what he called "The Black Summer" when Pinocchio became a real boy and grew a freakin' conscience. He knew his second wife was a good woman and she wanted to make the marriage work but he knew he had to come clean to her. He did, it shattered her world. Something clicked and he felt horrid about how he treated her and her family.
> He sat on the beach one day and asked God "I deserve everything I get now. If I never have a woman love me again, I deserve that. BUT, if you ever see fit to give me another chance, I will never dishonor her."
> 
> Two years later he met me.
> We've been together for 23 years and I know, beyond any doubt, this man has NOT ONCE cheated on me and he's had plenty of opportunity to do so. He's the world's WORST liar and even through some super difficult times with sex (basically all 23 years) I've told him "GO find a woman who pleases you. You have my blessing!" He wouldn't do it. He's told me, he has enough karma from the years before me and he will not dishonor me. He often tells me our bad sex life is his karma for all those years.
> 
> Many people may say I'm totally blind, gullible and kidding myself if I believe he's always been faithful but truly and honestly, if they ever met the man they would know in 15 seconds he is so stupidiculously dedicated to me it's almost suffocating. The idea of cheating on me may have been said in anger but doing it has never crossed his mind. (and I know I said "never", it's complicated)
> 
> Now, is he the norm? No, not in a million pancakes on Sunday. He's probably the exception but I do believe there are others out there like him. Hell, there are people who's marriages ROCKED and were stronger after one cheated. The point is,
> Once a cheater
> doesn't always equate to always a cheater.


If you think this guy has never cheated on you then you’re just plain delusional.


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## happiness27

MAJDEATH said:


> It seems that TAM is somewhat biased towards believing this quote at face value. I was curious if there is current research to back up this so-called "proven-fact" that is often expunged by Internet tough guys; the same guys who believe that you should dump her at the first sign of infidelity, if you are a "real" man.
> I wonder if these guys have real marriages, real children, have real mortgages, and live in the real world of real human nature?
> 
> Can trust be rebuilt? Do we underestimate the ability to change? Are some people more likely to cheat again than others? I believe before a cheater can even consider changing their ways, they must work thru the issues that drove them to stray, which may take time thru IC.
> 
> I did find some current studies that showed about 70% of those who cheated in the past were now faithful in their current relationship. The study indicated that the 30% (repeat cheaters) shared some common dynamics, to include:
> 1 Genetic disposition (a certain gene is not present, and almost all shared the same lacking gene with a parent, who also cheated)
> 2 Reported to have "fallen out of love"
> 3 High level of self attractiveness
> 4 High level of sex drive
> 5 In men, larger sized testicles were more likely to be repeat offenders, perhaps greater T levels


Yes, trust can be rebuilt. Commitment trumps everything. Two people who are committed to the relationship can literally do anything.


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## She'sStillGotIt

happiness27 said:


> Commitment trumps everything. Two people who are committed to the relationship can literally do anything.


That's idealistic at best.

Isn't that the whole IDEA when you marry? That you're both *committing* to the relationship?

Of course it is. That is, until one of them decides *not* to be so committed to the relationship and conveniently neglects to tell the other.


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## Married but Happy

Consider the following absolute statements. Are they all true, or all false?

Once a cheater, always a cheater.
Once pregnant, always pregnant.
Once a liar, always a liar.
Once honest, always honest.
Once successful, always successful.
Once a failure, always a failure.

Etc.


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## Evinrude58

People have flaws. Psychologists say that a child’s basic character of their personality is formed at an early age. If one of your flaws is disloyalty, it’s probsbly going to be a flaw from now on. Some people are loyal, some not. I’m sure there’s a spectrum, but if one cheats on the person they swore to love, I’d say they were on the lower end of the loyalty spectrum.


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## MaiChi

Tomara said:


> Once a cheater most often is always a cheater. I do believe that u can make a huge mistake and learn but those are the rare.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cheating is caused by disrespect of both self and other. Respect is learnt in childhood and cannot be learnt in adulthood after your formative years. A respectful spouse with tell the other that the relationship can no longer function and seek to leave. A disrespectful one will cheat. 

This is why it is highly improbable that a cheater can move from that status. 

So yes, a cheater is almost definitely a cheater permanently. Usually being forgiven increases the chance of cheating again. There are very few who cheat and learn something positive from the experience. I spend four hours per week working with a marriage guidance group. My follow up experience is that cheaters will find it easier to cheat again soon.


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## SweetAndSour

If you are in a relationship with a cheater you should lower your expectations. That particular cheating may be over but that person is still carrying the same psychology, has it changed ?


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## Cletus

Evinrude58 said:


> People have flaws. Psychologists say that a child’s basic character of their personality is formed at an early age. If one of your flaws is disloyalty, it’s probsbly going to be a flaw from now on. Some people are loyal, some not. I’m sure there’s a spectrum, but if one cheats on the person they swore to love, I’d say they were on the lower end of the loyalty spectrum.


That's simplistic at best.

If you were to take a poll of family and friends, I would rate very high loyalty marks across the board, including from my wife. It is in fact one of my few personality strengths, and not only by my own measuring stick do I make the claim. 

Some folks love the simple answers and easy dehumanization of a cheater but don't apparently like to consider that people, relationships, and marriage are complex. That someone capable of being fiercely loyal and committed to their spouse can also be flawed enough to step outside their marriage. That in fact the very effort of trying to remain faithful to your spouse can contribute to the affair. 

Since this is in the long term success forum, I will also point out from experience that an affair does not necessarily doom a marriage, if both partners are committed to restoring it to health.


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## 2ntnuf

It doesn't really matter what all of us think. It matters what the person you have interest in thinks.


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## sokillme

I have been reading these posts for 2 years now. I see about 5 or so basic stories with about 3 or so being the same over and over.

For starters I am honestly not surprised that the kind of wishy washy people, who stay in bad marriages, with cheating spouses who have poor boundaries, the kind who spend years complaining about it are cheated on to begin with. It's a symbiotic dynamic. It's prevalent of the kind of people who post for years about how much their spouse sucks but don't change anything. At the end of the day they are in that kind of relationship because they want to be. Their spouse picks them because they know they are catatonic. This relationship is basically two people who are very dysfunctional whose dysfunction feeds off each other. 

Besides that everyone else has the potential to marry someone who cheats but a healthy person moves on one way or another. In the very rare cases the WS changes. This usually happens when the WS is damaged and very immature. In the rare cases they grow up, do the hard work and the BS is willing to give them a second chance. Very rare. 

Most of the time though the BS suffers for a time but move on and is happy again. The WS is usually dysfunctional shallow and selfish. They basically operate out of selfish short term thinking and pretty much suck. This is the aforementioned once a cheater always a cheater kind. These people are just useless for anything else but the initial period of relationships but anything that involves long term commitment is lost on them. They just go from relationship to relationship and are a trap. In the long term any joy a relationship may give you is eventually outweighed by the misery they produce. 

Finally there is the marriage where one person is neglectful or abusive and the other has enough and acts out. Those can survive if the neglectful person is remorseful and willing to except the abuse of an affair as a response to the crap they dished out. I think those can work because the neglectful person is not really that invested at the point where the cheating happens to be all that hurt. They only begin to really care when they are cheated on. 

All that said, personally I have never read any of the so called "happy ending" or post from even the most remorseful wayward spouses, some of who I would happily call friends, where i would stay married to them after being cheated on. I think some of them would make good spouses moving forward but it's just way to painful and causes way too much damage. The WS is too much of a trigger and their presence pretty much prolongs the damage. I tend to doubt if it is even possible to totally heal if you stay with them. Plus the dynamic in the relationship never seems healthy, the balance always seems off. The primary focus of the relationship become the infidelity. Life is too short for that. The long term payoff just is not even close to the amount of suffering needed to stay. No one is worth that. No one. However I like to think of myself as a good spouse who is very attentive to my marriage so I am bias.

I personally wholeheartedly believe their are those who can cheat and those who can't. Everyone has the potential to have feelings for someone who is not their spouse, but those who won't cheat just don't act on them. Yes everyone has the potential to have a drunken on night stand it's true. However wise people put up enough boundaries to never get in that situation. That being said not everyone is capable of having the kind of affair that requires a repeatedly dishonest separate life. That is a separate type of person which I will never understand. Unfortunately there are a lot of folks like that. Separate from those there is an entire other class (and I would say better class) of people who just couldn't put up with the guilt.

2 cents.


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## AKA Broken Arrow

I was addicted so I'm an addict and always will be. Doesn't mean I'll ever use again.

I cheated so I'll always be a cheater. Doesn't mean I'll ever cheat again. 

Some people are worth a second chance, some aren't.


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## VermiciousKnid

I don't necessarily believe in *once* a cheater always a cheater. People can make a massively bad and destructive decision to cheat, learn from that bad decision, and never do it again.

With that said, I 1000% believe in *Two times or more* a cheater, *ALWAYS* a cheater. In my heart I fully believe that statement is irrefutable.

I took a brief read over your lengthy post history. Isn't your wife about a 5 or 6 time cheater? Maybe more? If you're asking this question for your particular case then yes, she'll always be a cheater.


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## PigglyWiggly

cheated in many relationships in my youth. Grew up, stopped cheating.


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## personofinterest

VermiciousKnid said:


> I don't necessarily believe in *once* a cheater always a cheater. People can make a massively bad and destructive decision to cheat, learn from that bad decision, and never do it again.
> 
> With that said, I 1000% believe in *Two times or more* a cheater, *ALWAYS* a cheater. In my heart I fully believe that statement is irrefutable.
> 
> I took a brief read over your lengthy post history. Isn't your wife about a 5 or 6 time cheater? Maybe more? If you're asking this question for your particular case then yes, she'll always be a cheater.


This. Once CAN be an aberration. Several times is a pattern and character trait.


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## Dyokemm

Of course there are always individual exceptions to any generalized statement like ‘once a cheater, always a cheater’.....

There are indeed some people who change and fix the issues that allowed them to betray their partner/spouse.

That said, it doesn’t matter to me one bit.

I refuse to date any woman who has cheated before......and if I find out even later in the relationship, I still break it off immediately.

IMO it is simply a matter of risk assessment.....

A cheater MAY have done the work and become a better person who would never do it again.....but that isn’t a bet I would ever be willing to make.....not worth the risk they have NOT truly done the work on self-improvement IMO.

While there is theoretically the potential for any new partner to eventually become a cheat, it is a KNOWN fact that a former cheater can do it......they might swear they have changed and would never do it again, but there is no way I can ever KNOW that for certain.

Sorry.....but I have to make choices in this world based on facts/evidence.....and with a former cheater, their past behavior makes them a bad gamble for future fidelity IMO.

That might not be ‘fair’ to those who have truly changed.......but it is what it is.....

I’m not ever taking that bet.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

MAJDEATH said:


> I have a feeling that cheating happens more than we care to admit in long term marriages. It doesn't mean that it wasn't worth it to stay married and realize the positive benefits.
> 
> The question is, is there a greater chance to repeat compared to the first time? It might actually be less if the WS got caught or confessed, due to increased awareness/oversight by the BS.



I didn't get married to police my Wife like a child and have as much respect for her as a common street walker. Do I really want to spend my days looking over her email, texts, wondering if she deleted messages before I found them, checking her phone records, tracking her whereabouts by GPS, getting tied into knots because she has a new male coworker? Then the self-doubts over whether you are just plan B until she find the OM of her dreams, then you are toast. That's not a marriage, that is just misery. 

So once a cheater, always a cheater is really besides the point, its moot, you know what she is capable of and you know it could happen again or else you wouldn't be monitoring her like a child. If it never happens again, is that because of the heavy monitoring or because she turned over a leaf. Who knows? But who wants to spend the rest of their life looking over their shoulder? I want someone that will have my back not someone capable of plunging a knife into it. If that is good enough for you, more power to you, but infidelity tends to be the type of thing that completely shatters marriages because it kills both trust and respect which are paramount to marriage. Why continue dragging a carcass around for the rest of your life?


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## Blondilocks

The word espoused would suit this post better than 'expunged'.


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## Dad_of_five

The short answer, NO. 

Repeat cheater here 🖐🏼. Although never physically, I cheated via text and messaging apps about 6 or 7 times. Wife calls it 12, but. Sending pictures, phone talking, etc. 

It took me a long time to figure this out. I couldn’t stop all the sudden. I never went looking to cheat. It just turned out that way. 

My scenario would go like this. Marital problems caused stress. Stress caused arguments. Arguments caused distance and hurt feelings. Repeat over and over. I’d become depressed and alone. So I’d spend more time online. Facebook and other social media sites. 

Then comes some cute girl flirting. And I’d fall for it every time. Because I was getting the attention and the comments that made me feel good. I’d smile again. Laugh again. Etc. then I’d get caught. 

At first I blamed her. She of course was the reason I felt alone and depressed. She would fight with me. Distance herself from me. Make me feel unwanted. 

It took me a good 2 years to see it wasn’t her. A serious talk with myself and a self agreement that despite what others make you feel, the outcome is all up to you. And despite feeling depressed and alone, cheating is a choice. 

I still deal with the same feelings. But I’ve learned to cope with them in a positive way. The girls....they will always be there ready to step in during moments of weakness and depression. So I have my guards up. I don’t put myself in situations where the outcome could be cheating. St the first sign of flirting or provacitive conversation, I reaffirm that I’m married and that the woman crossed the line. And I don’t continue the conversation. In person, via texting, messenging, or any other way. 

We are still and will always deal with the pain and mistrust caused by the cheating. But we are both determined. We both put the work in the overtime those feelings. 

Bottom line. The cheater has to face their actions, feelings, and thoughts to stop the cycle. But it is possible.


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