# Cheater on SLATE prefers sex with OM



## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

This is so sad, but illustrates so many issues:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/06/secret-affair-ended-honest-with-husband-sex-advice.html


Excerpt:
_
About a year ago, I had a brief affair. We realized it was a mistake and ended the relationship. He lives far away, so I haven’t seen him since. Neither of us told our spouses about it, and we have no intention to. I’ve never done anything like that before, and I won’t ever again. I feel bad about it and wish it hadn’t happened, except in one respect: The sex I had with this man was off-the-charts amazing. Like, I didn’t realize that sex could be like that. _


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## FoolishOne (Sep 19, 2018)

However, The answer from the slate writer was pretty good, if not totally in depth. It hit on the fact that it was the illicit nature of the cheating that made the sex seem so great. They hit on opening up sexually to her husband and trying to get him to enjoy her kinks. They even seemed to give a small push towards telling her husband everything.

I can see why that wayward's words could trigger a BH to no end. But the slate writer did pretty well given the circumstances and the constraints.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Hey, we all know she'll likely never tell her husband.

But if for some reason her affair _does_ get exposed to her husband, it's pretty much a given that she'll lie to him (like most cheaters do) and tell him the sex with her affair partner was "boring" or "routine" or "just ok." She'll also probably claim (like a lot of them do) that she really didn't want to have sex with him but it was the only way to keep the _attention_ coming her way which is what she _really_ wanted. She'll probably try that cheater-favorite about how the sex with her OM wasn't NEARLY as "special" as it is with her husband "because they have that marital bond, so sex with their husband/wife is ALWAYS so much more intense!" 

I see cheating men telling their betrayed wives this same line ALL the time on infidelity boards and I roll my eyes all the way to the ceiling when I see these women actually falling for that steaming load of bull-crap. 

And, this woman will also probably lie and tell her husband that it only happened a few times when it likely happened 100+ times, and she'll also probably claim that the OM was less endowed than her husband. She'll lie and say he was never in their car/in their house/in their bed when he was likely in at least *one or two* of those places.

With cheaters, the lies are *never-ending*.

I don't think this woman is unique at all for what she said about the affair sex being hot for her. In truth, I think that's the way it is for most cheaters but there is NO WAY on God's green earth they're going to admit that to their betrayed spouses. Most will go to their graves keeping that little secret to themselves.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I don't think this woman is unique at all for what she said about the affair sex being hot for her. In truth, I think that's the way it is for most cheaters but there is NO WAY on God's green earth they're going to admit that to their betrayed spouses. Most will go to their graves keeping that little secret to themselves.


I don't know as a wayward I acknowledge that the high of affair sex is intense, but what good would it do to hurt your BS by telling them explicit details of how awesome it was? I am ok with spilling all....except for that.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> She'sStillGotIt said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think this woman is unique at all for what she said about the affair sex being hot for her. In truth, I think that's the way it is for most cheaters but there is NO WAY on God's green earth they're going to admit that to their betrayed spouses. Most will go to their graves keeping that little secret to themselves.
> ...


Most people who advise spilling everything explicit know the BS can't handle that (and probably doesn't actually want them). Usually the goal is to make sure reconciliation is impossible.


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> I don't know as a wayward I acknowledge that the high of affair sex is intense, but what good would it do to hurt your BS by telling them explicit details of how awesome it was? I am ok with spilling all....except for that.


Did your wife not ask or did you lie when she asked?


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Bottom line is some people are better in the sack than others. Telling her old man about the affair is pointless. Guiding and advising him in a manner to kindly but directly know he needs to step up his game is recommended and doable. By the way, if you're not an expert at handling, "does this outfit make my butt look big?" stay away from, "Was the sex better with her/him". You ain't equipped to handle it and you'll do more harm than good. Take my word for it.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

I've seen a few where unfortunately the truth came out at a much later date. 

They didn't end well.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

OutofRetirement said:


> Did your wife not ask or did you lie when she asked?


She didn't want to know...cared far more if there was any emotional attachment. If asked though...no freaking way would I tell her an AP was better in the sack. But the truth is ALL of them were, and it wasn't close either. Some things are better taken to the grave.

I cringe when I read on here people advising BHs that they have a right to know and should ask. That's probably true...but the BH also needs to do some soul searching first, some things you can't unhear. Its ok to know how many times or where I guess...but intimate details? I wouldn't wish that on anyone.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Most people who advise spilling everything explicit know the BS can't handle that (and probably doesn't actually want them). Usually the goal is to make sure reconciliation is impossible.


That's a good thing. Many BS need to be brought to reality.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Wolfman1968 said:


> This is so sad, but illustrates so many issues:
> 
> https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/06/secret-affair-ended-honest-with-husband-sex-advice.html
> 
> ...


He lives far away now so it stopped. But if he ever came back to town...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> OutofRetirement said:
> 
> 
> > Did your wife not ask or did you lie when she asked?
> ...


Confessing the affair itself is essential. Volunteering length, girth, and number of moans is stupid. Of course, if asked, always tell the truth.

Like I said, people who push for a voluntary Penthouse letter blow by blow have an agenda.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Confessing the affair itself is essential. Volunteering length, girth, and number of moans is stupid. Of course, if asked, always tell the truth.
> 
> *Like I said, people who push for a voluntary Penthouse letter blow by blow have an agenda.*


 Prove it.
Does this advice sound familiar? It should. 


> Stating opinion as fact doesn't make it so.


e.t.a. Is 3 weeks up already?


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

Ignore this post.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rubix Cubed said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Confessing the affair itself is essential. Volunteering length, girth, and number of moans is stupid. Of course, if asked, always tell the truth.
> ...


There's nothing wrong with having an agenda per se. I have an agenda when I post about certain causes or topics.

Yes, the 3 weeks is up. The break gave me time to schedule, prep for, and have breast cancer surgery. Thanks for asking.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> Most people who advise spilling everything explicit know the BS can't handle that (and probably doesn't actually want them). Usually the goal is to make sure reconciliation is impossible.


It's not about whether or not it makes reconciliation impossible.... it's about the BS being armed with all relevant information with regard to whether or not they want want to/should reconcile. If knowing they will never rock the WS's world like the AP did makes it harder to stick with it, then so be it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> She didn't want to know...cared far more if there was any emotional attachment. If asked though...no freaking way would I tell her an AP was better in the sack. But the truth is ALL of them were, and it wasn't close either. Some things are better taken to the grave.
> 
> I cringe when I read on here people advising BHs that they have a right to know and should ask. That's probably true...but the BH also needs to do some soul searching first, some things you can't unhear. Its ok to know how many times or where I guess...but intimate details? I wouldn't wish that on anyone.


I didn't want any details. None. At all.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> She didn't want to know...cared far more if there was any emotional attachment. If asked though...no freaking way would I tell her an AP was better in the sack. But the truth is ALL of them were, and it wasn't close either. Some things are better taken to the grave.
> 
> I cringe when I read on here people advising BHs that they have a right to know and should ask. That's probably true...but the BH also needs to do some soul searching first, some things you can't unhear. Its ok to know how many times or where I guess...but intimate details? I wouldn't wish that on anyone.


What a crock. They were all better? Christ, you are so cool about not only living a lie, but living a rather big one. How nice you rationalize denying the one you supposedly love what she needs to know (whether she thinks so or not) to make an informed decision. But then since you betrayed her in the first place, I guess I'm not surprised you have no more fidelity to the truth than you had to her.


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

So does anyone here read source material? Or, I dunno, look into the author?

It's Stoya. She's a Serbian-"something" American porn star.

In her defense, she does cum so pretty.

Seriously, though, how do you expect a soft-prostitute to defend marriage?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

AandM said:


> So does anyone here read source material? Or, I dunno, look into the author?
> 
> It's Stoya. She's a Serbian-"something" American porn star.
> 
> ...


Read the source material? Yep. 
I guess it should have crossed my mind to look into the pedigree of the author. Not really though.... not thinking much of the article in the first place, I didn't see any need to figure out who the author was.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Prove it.
> Does this advice sound familiar? It should.
> 
> 
> e.t.a. Is 3 weeks up already?


MODERATION NOTE:- Please do not goad other members. 

It never ends well.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> There's nothing wrong with having an agenda per se. I have an agenda when I post about certain causes or topics.
> 
> Yes, the 3 weeks is up. The break gave me time to schedule, prep for, and have breast cancer surgery. Thanks for asking.


You have our support, @personofinterest! Positive thoughts and/or prayers will be on your way.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Maybe I'm missing something but isn't the article just plain obvious? It's kind of like saying when people look up at the sky they see blue. Weather real or imagined the affair stuff is always hotter. It just isn't based in reality if you get my drift.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Serious question, what does one gain from a thread like this? I understand different people here are in different stages of healing. I'm just wondering if a thread like this might be a step backwards for some people to read and participate in. 

Never been where you guys are. I guess I'm just wondering if others see this as a step back, or does discussing things that might trigger you actually help in some way? Say you are stuck in the anger stage and have been for a long time. You can't find forgiveness to move on in your healing ... How does a thread like this help? Sorry if this is a dumb post and I'm not trying to offend anyone.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Mr.Married said:


> Maybe I'm missing something but isn't the article just plain obvious? It's kind of like saying when people look up at the sky they see blue. Weather real or imagined *the affair stuff is always hotter. *It just isn't based in reality if you get my drift.


Is it really? Maybe for some. I mean, I can't say first hand, because I've never had "affair stuff." But the thought of being intimate with anyone other than my wife is so offputting that I can't possibly imagine the sex being better if it was to take place. It would be horrible. Just... plain... horrible. 

It'd only be "better" (real or imagined) for someone who wan't actually devoted to their spouse in the first place. Now that's what's as obvious as looking up at the sky and seeing blue, since having cheated is clear evidence of their lack of love and devotion in the first place.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

AandM said:


> So does anyone here read source material? Or, I dunno, look into the author?
> 
> It's Stoya. She's a Serbian-"something" American porn star.
> 
> ...



Well, it was from Slate, the news/opinion site. It was more of an "Agony Aunt"/"Dear Abby" sort of column, although it wasn't spelled out that the person answering the questions/letters was a porn actress. At least, not in a way that I caught it. And I never heard of her before.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's not about whether or not it makes reconciliation impossible.... it's about the BS being armed with all relevant information with regard to whether or not they want want to/should reconcile. If knowing they will never rock the WS's world like the AP did makes it harder to stick with it, then so be it.


Indeed. However, if they were not able to rock their spouse's world, it seems unlikely they'd rock it for a new partner, so they should take that into account. Let's face it: some people are just no good at sex.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It'd only be "better" (real or imagined) for someone who wan't actually devoted to their spouse in the first place.


This is just not universally true. It's projection.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Indeed. However, if they were not able to rock their spouse's world, it seems unlikely they'd rock it for a new partner, so they should take that into account. Let's face it: some people are just no good at sex.


Maybe. Could also just be bad chemistry or some other form of mismatch.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Mr.Married said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe I'm missing something but isn't the article just plain obvious? It's kind of like saying when people look up at the sky they see blue. Weather real or imagined *the affair stuff is always hotter. *It just isn't based in reality if you get my drift.
> ...


Yeah I get your point but the article IS about cheaters.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> What a crock. They were all better? Christ, you are so cool about not only living a lie, but living a rather big one. How nice you rationalize denying the one you supposedly love what she needs to know (whether she thinks so or not) to make an informed decision. But then since you betrayed her in the first place, I guess I'm not surprised you have no more fidelity to the truth than you had to her.


I am aware that most here don't like my truth. But that doesn't make it not true. I see no rationalization in my post at all. Simply the truth...albeit an ugly one.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> I am aware that most here don't like my truth. But that doesn't make it not true. I see no rationalization in my post at all. Simply the truth...albeit an ugly one.


It just doesn't seem very "reformed" to keep relevant information about your infidelity from your spouse. 

How ironic you used true/truth three times in two lines of text to defend your stance on not sharing the truth:scratchhead:


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## FoolishOne (Sep 19, 2018)

Marriedbuthappy wrote

"Indeed. However, if they were not able to rock their spouse's world, it seems unlikely they'd rock it for a new partner, so they should take that into account. Let's face it: some people are just no good at sex."




Who the hell believes that? Yes, SOME men just don't get it. Some women as well. Those ones are very uncommon, however, and not unsalvagable. In no way did she indicate her husband was bad at sex, to begin with.

But the vast majority of people can have/give amazing sex if both partners are compatible, comfortable, open, and honest. It may take more work for some couples than others, but with effort, most people can become great lovers. Especially men. Most women are not all that picky, guys. Get in her head! The rest gets easier.

In the article, it mentions the sexual divide between her and her spouse has to do with kinks. She isn't being honest about them. That is a problem.

Why are guys so obsessed with size? This feels like you are thinking about size. It feels like you are saying this guy is physically unable to please ANY women. So he may as well give up. That is untrue. I've had some of the hardest orgasms in my entire life with nothing but my husband's fingers and some teasing whispers in my ear. 

Sex with her ap was probably "amazing" because it was taboo and she was honest about her kinks. It's possible she found him more handsome or intelligent. But that's subjective, just like everything else with sex. So please stop using absolutes. SOME woman only want "the big D" barf. Most, just want an attentive and understanding lover. Some have other desires. We aren't carbon copies of each other and each woman's sex drive and desires are unique.

Please stop pushing this narrative that some men are just no good for sex. I just brought this topic up to my husband and his words exactly were "I could see how an insecure young man could read that and lose just a little bit more hope when he already has toxic ideas about sex."


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

AandM said:


> So does anyone here read source material? Or, I dunno, look into the author?
> 
> It's Stoya. She's a Serbian-"something" American porn star.
> 
> ...




She isn't the author ... it's a column. The 'affair sex better than sex with my husband' was submitted by a reader. Stoya was the respondent. And the response she gave was a lot more measured and thoughtful then some I've seen here. 

*"You ended the affair, so focus now on fixing whatever led you to it in the first place."*


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

FoolishOne said:


> Marriedbuthappy wrote
> 
> "Indeed. However, if they were not able to rock their spouse's world, it seems unlikely they'd rock it for a new partner, so they should take that into account. Let's face it: some people are just no good at sex."
> 
> ...


Love this post... with one caveat. I'm not sure the affair sex was hot because it was taboo. After all, she's a porn star. I doubt a simple affair is taboo in her mind.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Anyone who compares men directly with women, is just ignorant to nature. 
They are 2 completely different genders with completely different life experiences and emotional bonding facilities....etc.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Deejo said:


> She isn't the author ... it's a column. The 'affair sex better than sex with my husband' was submitted by a reader. Stoya was the respondent. And the response she gave was a lot more measured and thoughtful then some I've seen here.


The truth is, notwithstanding the excitement due to the illicitness of the situation, this chick's OM may be better, way better, in the sack than the husband. Its not unusual to be yoked a man, or a woman, that's not all that in the love making department. To some folks a trustworthy, loving, but sexually boring relationship, is not sufficient to keep them in the barnyard. They are indifferent to "making do" with what's at home or the guilt many believe they should feel if they go elsewhere. C'est la vie, folks. C'est la vie.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> But if for some reason her affair does get exposed to her husband, it's pretty much a given that she'll lie to him (like most cheaters do) and tell him the sex with her affair partner was "boring" or "routine" or "just ok."
> 
> She'll also probably claim (like a lot of them do) that she really didn't want to have sex with him but it was the only way to keep the attention coming her way which is what she really wanted.
> 
> She'll probably try that cheater-favorite about how the sex with her OM wasn't NEARLY as "special" as it is with her husband "because they have that marital bond, so sex with their husband/wife is ALWAYS so much more intense!"


If sex with the BH is better why does he have to compensate his WW for sex by continuing to provide all the boring husband things?

During the affair his WW had a great life with a division of labor. BH for stability and AP for fun. When caught she has to chose one of the two. 

In order to keep having sex with his WW the BH has to continue providing the boring husband stuff. If sex with the BH is so good then why not offer him the same deal as the OM? No strings attached sex. Get a divorce and the BH can stop by for hot sex.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It just doesn't seem very "reformed" to keep relevant information about your infidelity from your spouse.
> 
> How ironic you used true/truth three times in two lines of text to defend your stance on not sharing the truth:scratchhead:


I can only assume your response is more about how you feel about my life choices and maybe even me. Which is understandable. I was referring to the "truth" I share on here. Its largely unfiltered. With that said...I'm not sure where you are coming from. My wife really did not want to know intimate details. Admittedly this is an assumption on my part...but probably an accurate one because given the opportunity to ask for intimate details she did not. Not in person, nor in counseling.

As for my stance on not telling her even if asked. I stand by that. You are just some guy from the web standing on a moral high horse of absolute truth regardless of the situation..which..is honestly not wise. I on the other hand have known this woman for around twenty years. You seriously telling me it was better to tell her every mistress was better in bed and most were hotter as I am walking out the door? Your suggestion only makes sense on here. Not in my actual life. No way was I going to stab her in the front and twist the knife with words that cruel. She is the mother of my kids...and...she needs to move on at some point. So you are saying the right thing was to give her another huge blow as I am walking out the door?  I firmly disagree with that. Some truths should not be told. Only a vindictive wayward that wanted to pile on at the end would unload like that.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's not about whether or not it makes reconciliation impossible.... it's about the BS being armed with all relevant information with regard to whether or not they want want to/should reconcile. If knowing they will never rock the WS's world like the AP did makes it harder to stick with it, then so be it.


It is not very hard to understand the difference between withholding vital information, and waiting until asked to share gory blow by blow details.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> It is not very hard to understand the difference between withholding vital information, and waiting until asked to share gory blow by blow details.


I just don't see a reason to withhold any relevant information. If she doesn't want to know, then don't tell. But what that says is that she'd rather bury her head in the sand than work with the truth of the situation, which is also not much of a foundation. Rug sweeping is rug sweeping, regardless of who's taking the lead.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> I can only assume your response is more about how you feel about my life choices and maybe even me. Which is understandable. I was referring to the "truth" I share on here. Its largely unfiltered. With that said...I'm not sure where you are coming from. My wife really did not want to know intimate details. Admittedly this is an assumption on my part...but probably an accurate one because given the opportunity to ask for intimate details she did not. Not in person, nor in counseling.
> 
> As for my stance on not telling her even if asked. I stand by that. You are just some guy from the web standing on a moral high horse of absolute truth regardless of the situation..which..is honestly not wise. I on the other hand have known this woman for around twenty years. You seriously telling me it was better to tell her every mistress was better in bed and most were hotter as I am walking out the door? Your suggestion only makes sense on here. Not in my actual life. No way was I going to stab her in the front and twist the knife with words that cruel. She is the mother of my kids...and...she needs to move on at some point. So you are saying the right thing was to give her another huge blow as I am walking out the door? I firmly disagree with that. Some truths should not be told. Only a vindictive wayward that wanted to pile on at the end would unload like that.


It makes perfect sense. 

You're walking out the door.... and by extension, forcing her to move on as well. If she's to be successful moving on, it would behoove her to know the truth. 

What would be cruel is to leave her thinking the wrong thing, thus dooming her to repeat the painful history she had with you. 

The most important feedback I have received in my life is negative, painful feedback. If my wife ever walked out on me, I'd wanna' know the exact, unvarnished reasons. Don't lie to me and don't just ignore me and leave the mystery hanging out there. 

Telling is not vindictive. Not telling is the cowardice of a wayward who is avoiding facing the unpleasantness of the situation they created by being a wayward in the first place.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I just don't see a reason to withhold any relevant information. *If she doesn't want to know, then don't tell. * But what that says is that she'd rather bury her head in the sand than work with the truth of the situation, which is also not much of a foundation. Rug sweeping is rug sweeping, regardless of who's taking the lead.


LOL

Yeah whatever.

Here's the thing....there ARE people who don't want a Penthouse forum letter confession. So once they hear it....they cannot unhear it. I think rational people will agree that making sure your BS knows you are willing to tell them every single thing they want to know no matter what WHILE letting the BS lead the information level makes sense.

Even your bolded statement makes ZERO sense if you advocate for a longwinded voluntary blow by blow. How can you NOT tell them while forcing them to hear everything?

Like I said, the people who push for voluntary writing of detailed soft porn have an agenda. An anti reconciliation one. And allowing the BS to decide how far into the detail they want to go is NOT rugsweeping.

No...it's not.

Extreme thinking is not rational.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> LOL
> 
> Yeah whatever.
> 
> ...


I'm not advocating "for a longwinded voluntary blow by blow" or a "Penthouse forum letter confession."

But a "I found him/her hotter than you" is appropriate. Hiding from that is not the basis for a reconciliation. If you're going to _truly _reconcile, you can only do so in full view of the relevant facts (no excessive detail needed). A reconciliation based on hiding the reason behind the affair is no reconciliation at all. 

This is not an anti-reconciliation agenda. It is a pro-decision agenda in that either decision may be appropriate, but only in the light of day, not the darkness of omission.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It makes perfect sense.
> 
> You're walking out the door.... and by extension, forcing her to move on as well. If she's to be successful moving on, it would behoove her to know the truth.
> 
> ...



I got nothing for you man...to me the only relevant details were I slept with multiple other people multiple times...she knew that. That is more than enough to make an informed decision. You seriously wanted me to spill intimate details? Thats insane. Hey honey, you know how you have problems having orgasms, well...none of my mistresses did. Also by the way, my mistresses were always down for a threesome if I ever wanted to. I could go on and on. How exactly does sharing things like that help her?

You are a unique individual if you really would want to know every nitty gritty detail. I have no reason not to believe you. However, I think if most men knew everything they'd be either suicidal or homicidal or both after hearing that level of detail. In the case of my wife it would have just been pouring salt in a wound. Absolutely nothing to be learned from it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> I'm not advocating "for a longwinded voluntary blow by blow"


Then why keep arguing? Surely you can understand the nuance of conversation well enough to know what was meant?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> > I just don't see a reason to withhold any relevant information. *If she doesn't want to know, then don't tell. * But what that says is that she'd rather bury her head in the sand than work with the truth of the situation, which is also not much of a foundation. Rug sweeping is rug sweeping, regardless of who's taking the lead.
> ...


OTOH, it does give the Betrayed some idea where they are deficient. It gives the betrayed an idea that they will never be good enough for their spouse. The betrayed has a better understanding that walking away might be the best choice because if they aren't measuring up, then the cheating may very well continue. I can understand why a Wayward would say 'I wanted to save him(her) the pain of the truth' meanwhile its very likely more a move of self-preservation of keeping his/her life together. 

But volunteering information only when asked makes sense even if its more for the wayward than the betrayed even if it smacks of the same deceit of the affair ('I never lied because she never asked if I was having an affair' type thing). Lying or deceiving the betrayed when asked helps no one. They have a right to the truth as it affects their decision to stay or go. The marriage is destroyed on dday, its really hard to destroy it any more by telling a truth.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> I got nothing for you man...to me the only relevant details were I slept with multiple other people multiple times...she knew that. That is more than enough to make an informed decision. You seriously wanted me to spill intimate details? Thats insane. Hey honey, you know how you have problems having orgasms, well...none of my mistresses did. Also by the way, my mistresses were always down for a threesome if I ever wanted to. I could go on and on. How exactly does sharing things like that help her?
> 
> You are a unique individual if you really would want to know every nitty gritty detail. I have no reason not to believe you. However, I think if most men knew everything they'd be either suicidal or homicidal or both after hearing that level of detail. In the case of my wife it would have just been pouring salt in a wound. Absolutely nothing to be learned from it.


You also seem to be reading too much into my statement. I've never said I "would want to know every nitty gritty detai." That's one of those things you probably can't really know what you want until you've been there, which I haven't. But what I can say with complete confidence is that I'd want to know the general why of the situation. If I'm being ditched, I'd want to know why with enough detail that I could decide if:
1. I could change/improve in some way to reduce risk of recurrence in the future
2. I could decide her perception is incorrect, that I'm fine and she's got the problem
3. I just have some inherent limitation which can not be changed so I can know not to overextend myself in the future and set up myself for failure once again.

When presented truthfully and honestly, there's always something to be learned from it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> OTOH, it does give the Betrayed some idea where they are deficient. *It gives the betrayed an idea that they will never be good enough for their spouse. The betrayed has a better understanding that walking away might be the best choice because if they aren't measuring up, then the cheating may very well continue*. I can understand why a Wayward would say 'I wanted to save him(her) the pain of the truth' while it more being a move of self-preservation. But volunteering information makes sense even if its more for the wayward than the betrayed. Lying or deceiving the betrayed when asked helps no one. They have a right to the truth as it affects their decision.


There are so many assumptions here I'm not sure where to begin, but I also know that you are a "once you cheat you are tainted forever" kind of guy, so it makes sense. It also kinda proves my point - those who advocate for a voluntary blow by blow basically want to make sure the BS (let's get real - BH) is so broken and devastated he absolutely will walk away no matter how remorseful the wayward or how hard the wayward works. One of their missions in life, based on their own ongoing pain, is to make sure every BS leaves all the time.

I get it. I really do. I kinda have to watch doing the same thing with spouses who refuse sex. But let's not pretend it isn't there.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> Then why keep arguing? Surely you can understand the nuance of conversation well enough to know what was meant?


Because we don't live in a binary world. 

There's a whole lot of ground between giving no reason and writing a porn novel. 
(you know, taking middle ground; the opposite of "extreme thinking")

Somewhere in there is the right balance between being vindictive and simply walking away/cheating with no explanation.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Because we don't live in a binary world.
> There's a whole lot of ground between giving no reason and writing a porn novel. Somewhere in there is the right balance between being vindictive and simply walking away/cheating with no explanation.


Exactly. And believe it or not, there is not one right answer as to where that balance is. The individual BS gets to decide that. No one or collective ones on a message board get to decide the "absolute" truth of the balance.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > OTOH, it does give the Betrayed some idea where they are deficient. *It gives the betrayed an idea that they will never be good enough for their spouse. The betrayed has a better understanding that walking away might be the best choice because if they aren't measuring up, then the cheating may very well continue*. I can understand why a Wayward would say 'I wanted to save him(her) the pain of the truth' while it more being a move of self-preservation. But volunteering information makes sense even if its more for the wayward than the betrayed. Lying or deceiving the betrayed when asked helps no one. They have a right to the truth as it affects their decision.
> ...


The whole idea of reconciliation is the assumption that it will never happen again. If you cant make that assumption, then why reconcile? If someone can honestly say the APs were hotter and better in bed, then whats your assumption of the chance of reconciliation. What happens when that hotter chick comes knocking?

My personal view is that its almost always better to leave after an affair regardless of all the details. An emotional affair or drunken one night stand with a voluntary confession might be a gray area IMO especially with kids. An affair reveals a giant character flaw where all betrayed should run not walk away.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> Exactly. And believe it or not, there is not one right answer as to where that balance is. The individual BS gets to decide that. No one or collective ones on a message board get to decide the "absolute" truth of the balance.


Of course the BS gets to decide. And yes, the proper balance will vary from individual to individual, couple to couple, and situation to situation. But in all cases, the balance should include enough information to make an informed decision.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Getting my head around the notion that the sex in an illicit affair is hotter, riskier, more spontaneous, and far more exciting, isn't a stretch at all. It's simple human nature. You are far more likely to take on more, newer, and different experiences than you ever would have with your married partner, with whom you have built up an understood, if not agreed upon dynamic over years.

I fully EXPECT affair sex to be wilder and hotter. Especially from the perspective of a wayward that is already dissatisfied with the overall relationship, and the intimate relationship in particular.

I also cannot get behind the idea of providing, or answering the demands of a betrayed, or anyone for that matter, for 'gory details'.

I've had sexual experiences since my divorce that I couldn't imagine sharing the details of, with either my current spouse, or ex-spouse if they were to ask. To me it's the equivalent of someone asking, "Hey, I need you tell me what the dump you took after eating that chorizo-limburger cheese -pineapple omelette, with onion rings was like?"

I also thought that the porn star respondent to the column (who some here seem to mistakenly believe as the married cheater in the vignette) advice was right on. Wouldn't have known she was a porn actress if it hadn't been pointed out, and indeed wonder what it has to do with one's ability or inability to provide insightful commentary?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

> Marriedbuthappy wrote
> 
> "Indeed. However, if they were not able to rock their spouse's world, it seems unlikely they'd rock it for a new partner, so they should take that into account. Let's face it: some people are just no good at sex."





FoolishOne said:


> Who the hell believes that? Yes, SOME men just don't get it. Some women as well. Those ones are very uncommon, however, and not unsalvagable. In no way did she indicate her husband was bad at sex, to begin with.
> 
> But the vast majority of people can have/give amazing sex if both partners are compatible, comfortable, open, and honest. It may take more work for some couples than others, but with effort, most people can become great lovers. Especially men. Most women are not all that picky, guys. Get in her head! The rest gets easier.
> 
> ...


But what about this? 

What are the REAL stats on this if there even are any? 

I mean are there really people that cannot learn how to have sex? I realize that there probably are, but as a guy, I have always been able to teach even the most inexperience women at least the basics...

You hear woman talk about men that have no clue... And I guess guys do the same? 

How do you have no clue? 

But I would think that everyone could figure out something about sex??? 

How big a problem is this concept????


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Deejo said:


> I've had sexual experiences since my divorce that I couldn't imagine sharing the details of, with either my current spouse, or ex-spouse if they were to ask. To me it's the equivalent of someone asking, "Hey, I need you tell me what the dump you took after eating that chorizo-limburger cheese -pineapple omelette, with onion rings was like?"


Well, don't leave us hanging. What was it like?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Deejo said:


> Getting my head around the notion that the sex in an illicit affair is hotter, riskier, more spontaneous, and far more exciting, isn't a stretch at all. It's simple human nature. You are far more likely to take on more, newer, and different experiences than you ever would have with your married partner, with whom you have built up an understood, if not agreed upon dynamic over years.
> 
> I fully EXPECT affair sex to be wilder and hotter. Especially from the perspective of a wayward that is already dissatisfied with the overall relationship, and the intimate relationship in particular.
> 
> ...


I'm wondering how much of the supposed "hotness" of affair sex has to do with the illicitness, maybe the release one wasn't getting otherwise, etc. rather than the actual sex itself.

We need groceries in our house, but what with surgery and hubby's work and such, no one has been able to go until last night. Be the time he went to the store, we were STARVING. I did soft barely foods for a couple of days, and then there just wasn't a whole lot of choice in the house. So I asked him to pick up whatever he wanted for us on his way home. He got a 6 pack of Krystal hamburgers. Yeah, the square greasy hamburgers with a thimble of beef in them lol.

Oh my GOSH....at 8:30 last night, those 2 krystals were the most delicious thing I had ever tasted! And it wasn't because the krystal recipe is so awesome. It's because I was starving for solid food! 

So I have to wonder if, especially for someone who is sex starved and makes the terrible choice to cheat, the sex seems so great because it's actual sex, which they haven't had in forever anyway.

I'd sure hate to insult a premier steakhouse chef by comparing his steak to that krystal that I only loved because I was so hungry.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> But what about this?
> 
> What are the REAL stats on this if there even are any?
> 
> ...


Not sure about real stats, but I think the problem isn't that they CAN'T learn how to have sex. To me, I think folks who are "bad" at sex are just selfish and won't/don't take the time to see what their partner is into and likes -- i.e., they don't want to learn and think they are already good at it.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

BluesPower said:


> But what about this?
> 
> What are the REAL stats on this if there even are any?
> 
> ...


Big enough that we have an entire website with thousands of registered users contributing to sort it all out.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

jlg07 said:


> Not sure about real stats, but I think the problem isn't that they CAN'T learn how to have sex. To me, I think folks who are "bad" at sex are just selfish and won't/don't take the time to see what their partner is into and likes -- i.e., they don't want to learn and think they are already good at it.


Or they don't care that they are bad at it because sex isn't important TO THEM so why should they care? Yes, I am referring to my ex, who was....not good. I just didn't know any better because he was my first.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> Or they don't care that they are bad at it because sex isn't important TO THEM so why should they care? Yes, I am referring to my ex, who was....not good. I just didn't know any better because he was my first.


POI, that's my point -- he didn't care enough about YOU to try to get better/learn what you liked -- too selfish. If HE didn't care about having sex, then he shouldn't have been in the type of relationship (marriage) where that is a very important part of the deal... (JMO!:grin2


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

personofinterest said:


> Or they don't care that they are bad at it because sex isn't important TO THEM so why should they care? Yes, I am referring to my ex, who was....not good. I just didn't know any better because he was my first.


I've actually wondered about this, a lot. I don't think it's at all a stretch to point out even in North American culture all of the efforts to curb, control, and manipulate female sexuality.

Only way a young woman can know whether her sexual partner is lousy, middling, or awesome, is if in fact ... she has had a number of sexual partners. Which, as evidenced time after time on these boards, can result in extreme RJ for a substantial number of guys, who may or may not have been as sexually active as their partner.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

jlg07 said:


> POI, that's my point -- he didn't care enough about YOU to try to get better/learn what you liked -- too selfish. If HE didn't care about having sex, then he shouldn't have been in the type of relationship (marriage) where that is a very important part of the deal... (JMO!:grin2


I fully agree. Honestly, I think that, while he really did care about me in his way, he only married because there was pressure to do so and I was the closest thing he had to a love interest. I don't think he did it knowingly either. I think he really thought he loved me the way a husband loves. He also didn't have normal models.

But in the end, I have two amazing kids and the path led me to today, so I can't be angry.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Welcome back POI


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> Welcome back POI


Thank you, monster from where the wild things are.

ON the topic, I have to say, any WS who, once the fog clears, actually thinks sex with someone they betrayed their family with is better than sex with the man they promised to marry is just.....gross.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Deejo said:


> I also cannot get behind the idea of providing, or answering the demands of a betrayed, or anyone for that matter, for 'gory details'.


It's one thing to honor a betrayed's wishes to not want to hear specifics. But if the betrayed wants more info, then their demands should be acquiesced in full. After all, they are the one who was wronged, and the one who committed the wrong has lost any and all moral authority to steer the ship from that point forward.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> There's nothing wrong with having an agenda per se. I have an agenda when I post about certain causes or topics.
> 
> Yes, the 3 weeks is up. The break gave me time to schedule, prep for, and have breast cancer surgery. Thanks for asking.


I hope things are going well, you're ok as much as possible. Best wishes.

(Sorry to others for a side track)


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> But what that says is that she'd rather bury her head in the sand than work with the truth of the situation, which is also not much of a foundation. Rug sweeping is rug sweeping, regardless of who's taking the lead.


There are people who prefer this - I am married to one of them.

Every time she goes in for a major medical procedure, she is very careful to NOT look up any of the details beforehand. That's my job. That's what works for her. Same with any affair details - don't ask, don't tell. She'd rather not know, and it's not my place to force feed her information that she does not want to hear. It would be cruel, in fact.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It’s natural to want to comfort people who are in pain, that said, the writer has NO IDEA WHY the sex was so great. 

And a guilty wife - likely isn’t inclined towards unflattering comparisons between her H and her AP whether they relate to inherent hotness, technique, affect, pacing or some other factor that drives quality of experience.




FoolishOne said:


> However, The answer from the slate writer was pretty good, if not totally in depth. It hit on the fact that it was the illicit nature of the cheating that made the sex seem so great. They hit on opening up sexually to her husband and trying to get him to enjoy her kinks. They even seemed to give a small push towards telling her husband everything.
> 
> I can see why that wayward's words could trigger a BH to no end. But the slate writer did pretty well given the circumstances and the constraints.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Totally agree



Cletus said:


> There are people who prefer this - I am married to one of them.
> 
> Every time she goes in for a major medical procedure, she is very careful to NOT look up any of the details beforehand. That's my job. That's what works for her. Same with any affair details - don't ask, don't tell. She'd rather not know, and it's not my place to force feed her information that she does not want to hear. It would be cruel, in fact.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm a little leary of the topic.
Regardless of the intent of the advisor, 
Is reconciliation a more likely outcome with incomplete disclosure?
Is False reconciliation a more likely outcome with incomplete disclosure?
Is Divorce a more likely outcome with incomplete disclosure?

Or to look at it a different way,
Is it really true that detailed disclosure will preclude reconciliation?

There is an Idea in the midst of this that a person who knows all of the details of the affair would be unable to remain married.
but in the lack of the truth the fantasy could last . . . . . forever?

I'm coming out of SSRI haze, and starting to see that something must have happened. There just aren't enough pretzels to cover the questions. I'll never know the details. But 
i'm also finding that it doesn't matter. My decision to stay or punt is independent of what really happened or didn't happen. It doesn't matter if he was bigger or better or richer. The only thing that matters is that he was there.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> How do you have no clue?
> 
> But I would think that everyone could figure out something about sex???
> 
> How big a problem is this concept????


For some, it's not about the inability to learn, but the inability to get over inhibition or disgust.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I think we first have to define what incomplete truth means to each person. For me, the complete truth would be "I slept with another woman. I cheated on you." Beyond that, I don't care how pert she was, how many moans there were, or even if she was saggier than me.

The bottom line is that he chose to betray our vows. Enough said.

For some people, in order to process and move forward in any direction, they need times, dates, number of orgasms, and general descriptions of body parts. And lik Yeti said, if they ask, the WS needs to truthfully answer.

The rub is this, no one gets to tell another person "you reconciled without all the information" OR "you gave too much information."

Because what I need and don't need is not the same as what someone else does.

I am, not the arbitor of what "complete truth" looks like, and neither is anyone else.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cletus said:


> There are people who prefer this - I am married to one of them.
> 
> Every time she goes in for a major medical procedure, she is very careful to NOT look up any of the details beforehand. That's my job. That's what works for her. Same with any affair details - don't ask, don't tell. She'd rather not know, and it's not my place to force feed her information that she does not want to hear. It would be cruel, in fact.


Like I already said, if she don't wanna' know, don't tell her. But that doesn't change the fact that she's making a decision on how to respond without even really knowing what she's responding to. That makes it impossible to assess the validity of the response. 

The medical procedure comparison actually supports the notion of the Betrayed knowing more: 
First of all, if it's elective surgery, it most definitely is the individual's responsibility to say yea or nay and in arriving at that decision they are a fool if they don't arm themselves with all relevant facts. So it is with affair triage. 

Furthermore, once the decision is made and you go under the knife, you're completely in the care of the surgeon. Nothing you can do there, so you need not know exactly what he's doing while he's doing it. So at that point there's no decision to be made.

Now if there's post-op procedures, again, the individual is solely responsible for making it happen correctly, as generally advised by the attending physician. Similarly, the Betrayed needs to manage their own response and recovery (whether in separation or reconciliation) and can only do so with the relevant information to work from.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

You will never get the full truth from a WS, it is nieve to expect otherwise. Maybe if you use sodium pentatal (but even then, maybe). The article says the BH wouldn't want to know details anyway, so a moot point.

She did it, she liked it, and she will always think fondly of their time together.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> I think we first have to define what incomplete truth means to each person. For me, the complete truth would be "I slept with another woman. I cheated on you." Beyond that, I don't care how pert she was, how many moans there were, or even if she was saggier than me.
> 
> The bottom line is that he chose to betray our vows. Enough said.
> 
> ...


Again, I see a third (more middle) option. Between the mere "I Cheated" and the full download "how many orgasms" is the why. Why did you turn elsewhere? I know that doesn't change the fact that the cheater exclusively owns his/her decision to cheat, but the betrayed deserves to know. 

If reconciling, the betrayed needs to know so they can assess the likelihood of success of reconciliation and the threats to that reconciliation.

If divorcing, the betrayed needs to know so they can either decide that the wayward was just plain bad and there's nothing they could have done to prevent the infidelity or they can understand what they may have done to facilitate the infidelity so they can avoid that pitfall in any subsequent relationships. 

Complete truth is complete truth; there is no arbiter. The betrayed gets to be the arbiter of how much of the complete truth they need or want.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deej,
Extreme RJ isn’t a single, discrete dysfunction. It is almost always part of a very insecure personality type. 

Many of those fellows, only chose to fixate on their RJ after being married and having kids. It felt more like an abusive power grab, than a narrowly defined phobia. 

These guys were plenty conscious that if they had played this card before marriage, their partner would have broken up with them.....






Deejo said:


> I've actually wondered about this, a lot. I don't think it's at all a stretch to point out even in North American culture all of the efforts to curb, control, and manipulate female sexuality.
> 
> Only way a young woman can know whether her sexual partner is lousy, middling, or awesome, is if in fact ... she has had a number of sexual partners. Which, as evidenced time after time on these boards, can result in extreme RJ for a substantial number of guys, who may or may not have been as sexually active as their partner.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Again, I see a third (more middle) option. Between the mere "I Cheated" and the full download "how many orgasms" is the why. Why did you turn elsewhere? I know that doesn't change the fact that the cheater exclusively owns his/her decision to cheat, but the betrayed deserves to know.
> 
> If reconciling, the betrayed needs to know so they can assess the likelihood of success of reconciliation and the threats to that reconciliation.
> 
> ...



I agree that all these factors are very important. And they require more than "I cheated" if reconciliation is at all a possibility. At the very least, a timeline is essential.

"Why" is tricky because the answer will depend on the WS's state of self-awareness. Their first layer of answers will probably have something to do with what was wrong in the marriage or what the BS did or didn't do. You have to be able to hold your nose through THAT layer to get to the more truthful reasons: I was self-centered, the death of my mom made me freak out and I decided to seek validation from someone else instead of opening up to you, I'm so resentful I let it give me a sense that I was entitled, blah blah. And even after that, a truly reconciliation-worthy WS needs to get to the root: X was broken in me and I made a terrible choice because I need to work on X.

If divorce is a foregone conclusion, I'm not really sure why they need to know length and girth, but hey, everyone is different.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's one thing to honor a betrayed's wishes to not want to hear specifics. But if the betrayed wants more info, then their demands should be acquiesced in full. After all, they are the one who was wronged, and the one who committed the wrong has lost any and all moral authority to steer the ship from that point forward.


I'm with you about responsibility, acceptance, and penance ... if reconciliation is in the cards. And I'll admit that in my response, I'm mentally accessing posts I've seen here over the years. "Did he come inside you?", "Did you do anal?", "Did you swallow?", "Did you like it?"

To my mind, all of that is self-flagellation. Any of those things are inherent to 'sex', the answer is almost assuredly 'Yes' to most, if not all, so why punish yourself and ask whether or not it happened ... particularly in light that none of them may have been happening in the failed relationship?

Odds are ... that MOST waywards continue having sex with their affair partner because they enjoy the hell out of it ... for whatever reason. And not uncommon, as in the case of the writer, she can't even identify the reason. If thats her honest answer if she's coming clean, I can't imagine that would sit well with anyone who wants to understand the 'why'.

I suspect the reason for her letter at all, is a degree of guilt and penance, with the admission of the thing, under the presumption that she's had gold star sex, and knows that is NOT in the cards for her with the man she is married to.

You can hate the cheater if you choose. But I rather feel bad for the both of them.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Deejo said:


> I'm with you about responsibility, acceptance, and penance ... if reconciliation is in the cards. And I'll admit that in my response, I'm mentally accessing posts I've seen here over the years. "Did he come inside you?", "Did you do anal?", "Did you swallow?", "Did you like it?"
> 
> To my mind, all of that is self-flagellation. Any of those things are inherent to 'sex', the answer is almost assuredly 'Yes' to most, if not all, so why punish yourself and ask whether or not it happened ... particularly in light that none of them may have been happening in the failed relationship?
> 
> ...


I follow all... except for 
_"I suspect the reason for her letter at all, is a degree of guilt and penance, "_
She plans to stay married to the poor dupe shes duped into believing she's into him and she will take her secret to the grave. Doesn't sound like anything I would cal penance, even on a limited basis.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I follow all... except for
> _"I suspect the reason for her letter at all, is a degree of guilt and penance, "_
> She plans to stay married to the poor dupe shes duped into believing she's into him and she will take her secret to the grave. Doesn't sound like anything I would cal penance, even on a limited basis.


Of course it's penance ... she wrote to Slate for advice.

My point was that it likely feels like penance to her. She gave voice to the thing that she would rather not. I don't anticipate her prostrating herself in tearful confession to her spouse ... ever.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Deejo said:


> Of course it's penance ... she wrote to Slate for advice.
> 
> My point was that it likely feels like penance to her. She gave voice to the thing that she would rather not. I don't anticipate her prostrating herself in tearful confession to her spouse ... ever.


Still not buying it.

pen·ance
/ˈpenəns/
noun
1.
voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an *outward expression of repentance *for having done wrong.

Saying you will continue on the same path and take your secret to your grave is the direct opposite of repentance. Can't see how any rational adult would consider doing the opposite of some thing to actually be that thing.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Deejo said:
> 
> 
> > Of course it's penance ... she wrote to Slate for advice.
> ...


I tend to agree. True repentance and taking this secret to the grave are mutually exclusive.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

MEM2020 said:


> Deej,
> Extreme RJ isn’t a single, discrete dysfunction. It is almost always part of a very insecure personality type.
> 
> Many of those fellows, only chose to fixate on their RJ after being married and having kids. It felt more like an abusive power grab, than a narrowly defined phobia.
> ...


I agree with you 100% MEM. 
In general, I've just been thinking a lot lately about how men certainly try to 'manage' womens sexuality. I'm sure most wouldn't even recognize it as such, or certainly don't view it in a negative light. There is a difference between sharing information for purposes of greater sexual awareness and discovery, versus probing for the purpose of keeping score and passing judgement.

In this case, I find it unfortunate that her behavior impacts her marriage and an unknowing spouse. She could certainly choose differently. Let her husband go and go explore her own sexuality. But the way that letter reads, sure doesn't seem likely thats the way it will go down.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Still not buying it.
> 
> pen·ance
> /ˈpenəns/
> ...


I need to be clearer when I'm being sarcastic.

I'm not defending this woman's actions or behavior in any way. I think her 'Letter to the Editor' is about as close to remorse, or penance, as she is going to get. I do not disagree with you. I would hope that she indeed chooses to find ways to make her marriage more fulfilling, rather than to sabotage it over time. Or ... just bow out. I don't get the impression that she will do either.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Deejo said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> > Still not buying it.
> ...


 You know, I really expected better from Ron burgundy!


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Deejo said:


> She isn't the author ... it's a column. The 'affair sex better than sex with my husband' was submitted by a reader. Stoya was the respondent. And the response she gave was a lot more measured and thoughtful then some I've seen here.
> 
> *"You ended the affair, so focus now on fixing whatever led you to it in the first place."*


So much for claims of reading comprehension on my part.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well, don't leave us hanging. What was it like?


Don't ever order that omelette.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> I'm with you about responsibility, acceptance, and penance ... if reconciliation is in the cards. And I'll admit that in my response, I'm mentally accessing posts I've seen here over the years. "Did he come inside you?", "Did you do anal?", "Did you swallow?", "Did you like it?"
> 
> To my mind, all of that is self-flagellation. Any of those things are inherent to 'sex', the answer is almost assuredly 'Yes' to most, if not all, so why punish yourself and ask whether or not it happened ... particularly in light that none of them may have been happening in the failed relationship?


Pretty much this.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

AandM said:


> So much for claims of reading comprehension on my part.


Wasn't intended as a jab. Please don't take it that way. But, was a pretty good illustration of how the collective 'we' can read something and come up with very different interpretations about what was said. The discussion that generally follows is the important part. Overall, we do a pretty good job.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sometimes asking questions is really an attempt to humiliate / punish the WS. Like the above "did you do anal", "did you swallow" - those sorts of questions seem designed to shame / humiliate, not to find out information. IMHO if you find you want to humiliate your partner, then end the relationship.

The other side is if the BS wants to know *why* the WS cheated, they have to be willing to listen to what the WS says. Sometimes its the truth. If the WS says, "I cheated because you put no effort into pleasing me in bed, you've never done XYZ for me, but insist that I do JKL for you every time", that might *be* the reason.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Sometimes asking questions is really an attempt to humiliate / punish the WS. Like the above "did you do anal", "did you swallow" - those sorts of questions seem designed to shame / humiliate, not to find out information. IMHO if you find you want to humiliate your partner, then end the relationship.
> 
> The other side is if the BS wants to know *why* the WS cheated, they have to be willing to listen to what the WS says. Sometimes its the truth. If the WS says, "I cheated because you put no effort into pleasing me in bed, you've never done XYZ for me, but insist that I do JKL for you every time", that might *be* the reason.


Though I will be picky and say it can be the reason for a vulnerability but does NOT excuse an affair, I basically agree.

In some ways, WS are between a rock and a hard place. If they say "because I was a selfish jerk," the reason isn;t good enough. If they say, "I've been invisible and begging you to see me for years, I am always afraid because you will not keep a job, and you haven't touched me in months," they are blame-shifting.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's not about whether or not it makes reconciliation impossible.... it's about the BS being armed with all relevant information with regard to whether or not they want want to/should reconcile. If knowing they will never rock the WS's world like the AP did makes it harder to stick with it, then so be it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejo,

When I first came here, I started reading what are best described as: The stories of the rejected. 

Back at the start those stories made me angry, as they felt like a betrayal. A betrayal of the first vow, the vow to love. 

But over time, the little individual glimpses I got of what it was like for the women - whose husbands weren’t just bad at sex - but they were incorrigibly bad - shifted my viewpoint dramatically. 

The irony about all this is - it’s like living in Lake Wobegon, where all the children are above average. 

When I casually mention in a thread that: Half of the male population is below average in bed - no one ever responds. Ever. It’s a third rail conversation, akin to saying that BY FAR the highest paid position in the modern world is being wife to the super rich. 

The thing is, the guys who come here, claiming of rejection are rarely able to do what you did. Which is to embrace reality whatever it is. 

The fog of passion is like the fog of war. When you told me that M2 was having an affair - I brushed you off. But she was. It wasn’t til she flat out acknowledged it that I accepted what had been right in front of me for 2++ years. Maybe 3 years. 







Deejo said:


> I'm with you about responsibility, acceptance, and penance ... if reconciliation is in the cards. And I'll admit that in my response, I'm mentally accessing posts I've seen here over the years. "Did he come inside you?", "Did you do anal?", "Did you swallow?", "Did you like it?"
> 
> To my mind, all of that is self-flagellation. Any of those things are inherent to 'sex', the answer is almost assuredly 'Yes' to most, if not all, so why punish yourself and ask whether or not it happened ... particularly in light that none of them may have been happening in the failed relationship?
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I was in Jakarta. And thru a series of unfortunate events I came pretty close to breaking my vows. 

Wait. No. They weren’t unfortunate events. They didn’t happen to me, weren’t beyond my control. 

I was in Jakarta, and after a series of small, incremental choices, each increasing the risk that my chassis would overpower my spirit, I came to the precipice. 

Now a third party could say - you stopped because - fill in the blank with some trite comment about me and my self control or sense of right and wrong. But that isn’t true. It just isn’t. What stopped me was the combination of two very powerful agents, sort of the emotional equivalent of nitro and glycerin.

1. M2 is an excellent wife, in and out of bed. 
and
2. She is a fierce person. And I’m a deep sleeper. 






personofinterest said:


> Though I will be picky and say it can be the reason for a vulnerability but does NOT excuse an affair, I basically agree.
> 
> In some ways, WS are between a rock and a hard place. If they say "because I was a selfish jerk," the reason isn;t good enough. If they say, "I've been invisible and begging you to see me for years, I am always afraid because you will not keep a job, and you haven't touched me in months," they are blame-shifting.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

It was a long term affair. So OF COURSE she preferred sex with the OM! Or she'd have kicked him into touch very early on in her cheating and stopped her cheating ways! DOH!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

MEM2020 said:


> Deejo,
> 
> When I first came here, I started reading what are best described as: The stories of the rejected.
> 
> ...



Anything that I have come to 'know' about attraction, relationship dynamics, particularly marriage dynamics, boundaries, having a personal code of conduct, conflict resolution, and fostering the good over the bad, I have come to know here. Either through references to books and other media, or from direct contributions from posters like you, @MEM2020. Those contributions are greatly appreciated.

It's easy to write off a lot of what happens right here on these forums as tragedy, dysfunction, betrayal, bitterness, anger ... you name it, and we've likely seen it. But at the risk of sounding sappy, this place also, and frequently ... changes lives. For the better.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Deejo said:


> Odds are ... that MOST waywards continue having sex with their affair partner because they enjoy the hell out of it ... for whatever reason. And not uncommon, as in the case of the writer, she can't even identify the reason. If thats her honest answer if she's coming clean, I can't imagine that would sit well with anyone who wants to understand the 'why'.


Yeah, I see the posters over at SI always searching for the elusive 'why' as they trudge along in reconciliation. They reach for FOO issues or mental illnessas their favorites, spend thousands of dollars and hours on therapists just because its easier than accepting the truth that their wayward enjoyed the hell out of it. Whether it was sexual prowess or attention or just a nice rack.

I always thought the illicitness of the affair making it better is particularly awful: 'It wouldn't been so good if I wasn't stabbing my spouse in the back and ignoring my children'. Isn't that sweet. Who knew what makes most people feel guilt, makes others melt.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Amen to that. Those who come here, seeking knowledge in greater measure than sympathy, learn a lot along the way. 





Deejo said:


> Anything that I have come to 'know' about attraction, relationship dynamics, particularly marriage dynamics, boundaries, having a personal code of conduct, conflict resolution, and fostering the good over the bad, I have come to know here. Either through references to books and other media, or from direct contributions from posters like you, @MEM2020. Those contributions are greatly appreciated.
> 
> It's easy to write off a lot of what happens right here on these forums as tragedy, dysfunction, betrayal, bitterness, anger ... you name it, and we've likely seen it. But at the risk of sounding sappy, this place also, and frequently ... changes lives. For the better.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I have been on this site and others like it for a few years. What I have seen of the few WSs that dare to venture here is that most know they're going to get kicked in the teeth and most are at least somewhat guilt ridden once they fear their BS is leaving and will shake up their comfortable lifestyle. Some even appear to be somewhat contrite.

However I have also found some pro-adultery forums for WSs by WSs where they support each other and give each other advice in how to find APs and to carry on affairs without getting caught. They cheer each other on and offer others how to cover their tracks and share mistakes they made where they almost got found out.

They also share background stories and talk about how dissatisfied and frustrated and resentful they are if their BSs.

.....and that is actually putting it pretty mildly. A better description of it is many HATE their BSs and the contpt and disdain they feel for them could be cut with a knife. 

Many openly admit they are with the BS for money and support and carry on affairs (yes, usually multiple) so they do not lose the house, pay child support or have the kids go to the BS's house on their weekends. 

Now the moment they get caught, they go into crying and begging to stay mode - but when they are getting away with it, they have nothing but disdain and contempt for the BS and act like the BS is the worst lover that ever walked the earth.

My observation has been that WWs in particular harbor tremendous contempt and resentment towards the BH and consider them to be the most impotent, smallest-penis and worthless lover on the planet. 

Most also claim to have basically zero guilt DURING the A and feel it is their birthright since the BS has such a teensy weensy tiny microscopic member and is such a poor lover. 

Once they get caught they cry and beg and vow undying love and fidelity; but prior to getting busted the AP is the greatest stud ever and the BS is the sexual failure of the universe. 

And most have had multiple affairs that were never caught and they have full intentions of going to their grave with that knowledge.

Cheaters are like rats and whatever you suspect, there is a ton more actually going on and whatever you see is only the tiny tip of the iceberg.


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## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Deejo said:


> Wasn't intended as a jab. Please don't take it that way. But, was a pretty good illustration of how the collective 'we' can read something and come up with very different interpretations about what was said. The discussion that generally follows is the important part. Overall, we do a pretty good job.


I was hurt. I really was. Honestly, there might have been tears.

Hey, I **** up all the time. My wife claims I have "Think It, Say It Disorder".


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> My observation has been that WWs in particular harbor tremendous contempt and resentment towards the BH
> 
> 
> > I think, particularly for women, the biggest indicator of a vulnerability to infidelity is resentment.
> ...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> I have been on this site and others like it for a few years. What I have seen of the few WSs that dare to venture here is that most know they're going to get kicked in the teeth and most are at least somewhat guilt ridden once they fear their BS is leaving and will shake up their comfortable lifestyle. Some even appear to be somewhat contrite.
> 
> However I have also found some pro-adultery forums for WSs by WSs where they support each other and give each other advice in how to find APs and to carry on affairs without getting caught. They cheer each other on and offer others how to cover their tracks and share mistakes they made where they almost got found out.
> 
> ...


My point here is what we hear from WSs here on TAM and even the WW in the OP is all a watered down, filtered and churched up version that has been edited for polite discussion. 

The actual reality of what was going on is much more dark and harsh and vile than what gets presented here.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> > My observation has been that WWs in particular harbor tremendous contempt and resentment towards the BH
> >
> >
> > > I think, particularly for women, the biggest indicator of a vulnerability to infidelity is resentment.
> > ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Now imagine she was not an "excellent" wife. Imagine that she was a bit lazy, and tended to nag you a lot of the time. Imagine that here interests in sex had declined since marriage, that she just gave you duty sex every once in a while, while subtly indicating your sexual desires were abnormal and unwelcome. (none of this to an extreme extent, just a mediocre wife rather than an excellent one).

Would you still have not done what you didn't do?



BTW: this is *not* my situation, just a hypothetical. 






MEM2020 said:


> I was in Jakarta. And thru a series of unfortunate events I came pretty close to breaking my vows.
> 
> Wait. No. They weren’t unfortunate events. They didn’t happen to me, weren’t beyond my control.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> IWhat stopped me was ...:
> 2. She is a fierce person. And I’m a deep sleeper.


:lol::smthumbup:


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Yeah, I see the posters over at SI always searching for the elusive 'why' as they trudge along in reconciliation. They reach for FOO issues or mental illnessas their favorites, spend thousands of dollars and hours on therapists just because its easier than accepting the truth that their wayward enjoyed the hell out of it. Whether it was sexual prowess or attention or just a nice rack.
> 
> I always thought the illicitness of the affair making it better is particularly awful: 'It wouldn't been so good if I wasn't stabbing my spouse in the back and ignoring my children'. Isn't that sweet. Who knew what makes most people feel guilt, makes others melt.


The thing is.....for many people doing something naughty they are not supposed to is a huge turn on.

In fact, many happily M couples fold this dynamic into their sex lives, with things like a quickie in public for example.

What makes cheaters reprehensible, is they have no boundaries to their own excitement/desires.

They are willing to trade their own deep satisfaction in doing something forbidden/naughty......knowing full well that the most horrid consequences if they are caught will not be paid by them, but instead by their betrayed partner.

It is pure selfishness.....especially when you also consider the negative results that may impact their own children as well.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Dyokemm said:


> The thing is.....for many people doing something naughty they are not supposed to is a huge turn on.
> 
> In fact, many happily M couples fold this dynamic into their sex lives, with things like a quickie in public for example.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. 

The way I see it is there are two ways to get the kind of thrill that this women got from her AP. One way is like you said to do something wrong and that is the turn on. Part of what makes it a turn on is the risk, and the vulnerability. Besides the usual newness of it all. But the other is to be completely honest with your spouse about what turns you on and to then pursue that with them. This involves an even greater risk and vulnerability.

That is the thing with this stuff. First of all she says he wasn't bad in bed, but she isn't honest, she is not an honest person so I think rather then him being the problem she is. She can't have the kind of sex she wants with her husband because she isn't honest about herself with him.

Which is why I think for the most part it really isn't the BS who is bad in bed I think it's the WS, because good sex takes honestly and the courage to be vulnerability and most WS are not really capable of that.

This is a person who has to lie to get a good guy because a good guy wouldn't be with her if she didn't, which is kind of the MO of everyone who cheats. It a shame he is wasted on her though.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Deejo said:


> Only way a young woman can know whether her sexual partner is lousy, middling, or awesome, is if in fact ... she has had a number of sexual partners.


That's not true.

My wife's first sexual partner was an older divorced man, that told her he was great at sex. Yet to my wife's disappointment, he couldn't ever bring her to orgasm despite a lot of trying. To the point he ended up variously telling her she must be broken, was having orgasms yet didn't know it, followed by then calling her a liar etc.

In short order she started to fake it and agree with him that she had orgasmed, so she wouldn't have another argument with him. As a consequence of that she quickly reached the conclusion, that he was a lousy sexual partner and sought someone else instead.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I am so tired of this good sex partner or bad sex partner crap. Sex is not static, assuming no one has a medical issue you either have a selfish, lazy sex partner or someone whom you can work with and become a great sex partner. It's this idea that sex if it's bad has to stay that way that is the problem. It's like anything else work at it. But that means everyone. 

There is no reason if you are married for a long time and are having sex you shouldn't end up being the best, if you both are committed at working and pleasing each other, and being honest.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

sokillme said:


> I am so tired of this good sex partner or bad sex partner crap. Sex is not static, assuming no one has a medical issue you either have a selfish, lazy sex partner or someone whom you can work with and become a great sex partner. It's this idea that sex if it's bad has to stay that way that is the problem. It's like anything else work at it. But that means everyone.
> 
> There is no reason if you are married for a long time and are having sex you shouldn't end up being the best, if you both are committed at working and pleasing each other, and being honest.


Right. It doesn't have to stay bad.

So someone who's not willing to work at it is a bad sex partner.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I firmly believe that anyone who *wants* to be a good lover and who is willing to put in the effort can be. Too often though people won't make the effort. 



sokillme said:


> I am so tired of this good sex partner or bad sex partner crap. Sex is not static, assuming no one has a medical issue you either have a selfish, lazy sex partner or someone whom you can work with and become a great sex partner. It's this idea that sex if it's bad has to stay that way that is the problem. It's like anything else work at it. But that means everyone.
> 
> There is no reason if you are married for a long time and are having sex you shouldn't end up being the best, if you both are committed at working and pleasing each other, and being honest.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> I firmly believe that anyone who *wants* to be a good lover and who is willing to put in the effort can be. Too often though people won't make the effort.


I second this.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

My impression of my wife’s criteria for being her best.
1.	Treat her well at all times
2.	Be romantic
3.	Be understanding
4.	Don’t have sexual expectations. Observe #3 in particular that she’s doing the best she can.
5.	Accept her limitations and don’t look elsewhere
6.	However, be ready to go at a moment’s notice when she decides she wants to 
7.	Be loving
8.	Be gentle
9.	Just enjoy it…. DO NOT worry about whether or not she’s enjoying it, and never, EVER, have any concern about whether or not she had, or will have, an orgasm
10.	Be happy with vanilla
11.	Don’t go wanting to try new techniques; stick with her tried and true
12.	Don’t talk about it. Ever. Talking kills it. Just do it, be done with it, and get on with your life. This is not a TQM effort in process improvement. Sex should be “natural” and talking about it is not. 

Interestingly, these are things anybody _can_ do. Most are pretty reasonable. But some are massive mismatches.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> She didn't want to know...cared far more if there was any emotional attachment. If asked though...no freaking way would I tell her an AP was better in the sack. But the truth is ALL of them were, and it wasn't close either. Some things are better taken to the grave.
> 
> I cringe when I read on here people advising BHs that they have a right to know and should ask. That's probably true...but the BH also needs to do some soul searching first, some things you can't unhear. Its ok to know how many times or where I guess...but intimate details? I wouldn't wish that on anyone.


It is only for the BS to decide for themselves what they want to hear.
The WS has no right to censorship the details.

All the WS can do is remind the BS that once something is heard it can
never be unheard so be sure to think it through before they ask any question.

Actually the WS can use tact when answering. Such as was the sex with the AP better.
all that was asked was the sex better. A yes or no answer. The BS did not ask who
had the better breasts, penis or whatever so no need to volunteer details. Just
stick to the facts needed to answer the question.

If a WS wants to recover then they need to answer, all. They were able to do. Had no
problem doing it. They should have no problem owning it and telling.

If the truth prevents recovery then it is better to divorce then rebuild a marriage
based on lies. Nothing good comes from lies.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> I can only assume your response is more about how you feel about my life choices and maybe even me. Which is understandable. I was referring to the "truth" I share on here. Its largely unfiltered. With that said...I'm not sure where you are coming from. My wife really did not want to know intimate details. Admittedly this is an assumption on my part...but probably an accurate one because given the opportunity to ask for intimate details she did not. Not in person, nor in counseling.
> 
> As for my stance on not telling her even if asked. I stand by that. You are just some guy from the web standing on a moral high horse of absolute truth regardless of the situation..which..is honestly not wise. I on the other hand have known this woman for around twenty years. You seriously telling me it was better to tell her every mistress was better in bed and most were hotter as I am walking out the door? Your suggestion only makes sense on here. Not in my actual life. No way was I going to stab her in the front and twist the knife with words that cruel. She is the mother of my kids...and...she needs to move on at some point. So you are saying the right thing was to give her another huge blow as I am walking out the door? I firmly disagree with that. Some truths should not be told. Only a vindictive wayward that wanted to pile on at the end would unload like that.


It was better to not tell your BW that all the other women that you cheated with were
way better in bed than your BW.

Why?

Because your BW did not ask that question. She did not want to be told that truth. She
is willing to never know that truth.

And remember there is a difference between being tactful and piling it on without concern
when giving the truth.


----------



## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm not advocating "for a longwinded voluntary blow by blow" or a "Penthouse forum letter confession."
> 
> But a "I found him/her hotter than you" is appropriate. Hiding from that is not the basis for a reconciliation. If you're going to _truly _reconcile, you can only do so in full view of the relevant facts (no excessive detail needed). A reconciliation based on hiding the reason behind the affair is no reconciliation at all.
> 
> This is not an anti-reconciliation agenda. It is a pro-decision agenda in that either decision may be appropriate, but only in the light of day, not the darkness of omission.


It is not for the WS to determine what level of details that the BS wants to know.
What the BS needs to hear is only for the BS to determine.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> I got nothing for you man...to me the only relevant details were I slept with multiple other people multiple times...she knew that. That is more than enough to make an informed decision. You seriously wanted me to spill intimate details? Thats insane. Hey honey, you know how you have problems having orgasms, well...none of my mistresses did. Also by the way, my mistresses were always down for a threesome if I ever wanted to. I could go on and on. How exactly does sharing things like that help her?
> 
> You are a unique individual if you really would want to know every nitty gritty detail. I have no reason not to believe you. However, I think if most men knew everything they'd be either suicidal or homicidal or both after hearing that level of detail. In the case of my wife it would have just been pouring salt in a wound. Absolutely nothing to be learned from it.


Spilling ones guts is not advocated. That takes away the control from the BS to determine
how much they need to know.

Volunteering the OW came like fire hoses and reminding BW had problems with orgasms is
being cruel.

Responding with the sex with the OW was very enjoyable truthful and leaves it to the BW to
hold there or ask for more detail. Giving more detail does not mean to stop being tactful.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldtruck said:


> It is not for the WS to determine what level of details that the BS wants to know.
> What the BS needs to hear is only for the BS to determine.


That's pretty much what I've been saying all along. My point was that I'm not saying there should be a long winded blow by blow every time, but if the BS wants it, it should be given.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Some information can be helpful - if somewhat painful. 

Telling that the affair partner made an effort to please the WS in bed may not be something the BS doesn't want to hear but it is something that they could change. 

I have a somewhat biased view on this because the 2 women who have confided in me that they had affairs did so because their husbands were either extremely selfish or extremely uninterested in bed. 




oldtruck said:


> Spilling ones guts is not advocated. That takes away the control from the BS to determine
> how much they need to know.
> 
> Volunteering the OW came like fire hoses and reminding BW had problems with orgasms is
> ...


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

oldtruck said:


> Spilling ones guts is not advocated. That takes away the control from the BS to determine
> how much they need to know.
> 
> Volunteering the OW came like fire hoses and reminding BW had problems with orgasms is
> ...


Its not like I don't understand what you are trying to say. I just don't think this happy medium is possible to do, and yes sometimes I think its a waywards job to protect the betrayed from what they think they want to know. In any real life scenario that I can think of. If a woman tells a man her lover was better, are you guys seriously telling me that her betrayed husband isn't going to ask for more specific details? How was he better? What did he do, etc.? It all pretty much leads down the same path. At least in the real world it does with an actual man thats been cheated on. All of this discussion sounds good in practice....but I'd still exercise serious caution if you found yourself on either side BS or WS. 

I'm also not sure how much value a WS giving you reasons they cheated helps you with the next relationship either. Its ok to want to know why they broke there vows, but it has little value for you as a person if you aren't reconciling. I mean...its not like you are going to be in a relationship with them, and if they left you because there wasn't enough sex, or you were a alcoholic, or whatever...pretty sure they mentioned those things before and during the affair. Most people do.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> ...yes sometimes I think its a waywards job to protect the betrayed from what they think they want to know.


You just used "trust" and "waywards job" in the same sentence!

:scratchhead::rofl::redcard::crazy::wtf::bsflag:


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## FoolishOne (Sep 19, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> oldtruck said:
> 
> 
> > Spilling ones guts is not advocated. That takes away the control from the BS to determine
> ...


No most people don't mention them. Not properly at least. If they had the proper method to address issues... they wouldn't have cheated would They?

I sure as heck THOUGHT I was getting my points across. I THOUGHT I was communicating properly. I wasn't. I didn't even know how to communicate properly. My head was too far up my own butt.

And again, as other have said on forums like this a million times, it's not about protecting your spouse. It's all about protecting YOU. The wayward spouse. If protecting your spouse was that important to you, you never would have cheated.

I don't want a relationship with ANY lies between us. If I want that type of relationship going forward, I have to hold up my end of that deal. No lies. If my husband asks what happened to the minute detail, that's what he gets. Same goes for any questions I ask about his affairs (revenge affairs).

Yeah, it hurts to tell them. Both of us get hurt by it. But my husband isn't a damn child and isn't a tool. If he wants details who the hell am I to say no or God forbid LIE.

LIES AND NOT COMMUNICATING GOT US WHERE WE ARE NOW. Continuing the lies doesn't help anyone.

Stop treating your spouse like they are children who will be destroyed by the truth. If the truth is that your spouse will never be as attractive or capable in bed IN YOUR OPINION as the ap was, that's info they deserve if they want it.

My husband's so was more than a decade younger than me. She was very attractive. Very fit. I used to be like her. I'm still attractive, but I'll never be in my late 20s again.

I got over it. My husband and I forged a new sexual dynamic that works. If him or I hadn't been COMPLETELY honest with each other, I doubt we would be as connected as we are today. Maybe it would seem like it, but it would be fake.

I really can't get over this lie to protect them mentality. It reeks of wanting control and being arrogant. The job of a wayward is to let go of the control and outcome. Lying to "PROTECT" isnt any of those things. It escaping the consequences of your own actions.

There should be no secrets besides surprise gifts/parties between a married couple. None at all. If the ugly truth is too much, well, it's too much and you two should probably split. There are other men in this world who would be totally fulfilled sexually and emotionally with your wife. And The lies may be keeping her from the man who could love her more and better than you can.

Sorry about any spelling or grammar issues. I have no time to edit and spell check.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> You just used "trust" and "waywards job" in the same sentence!
> 
> :scratchhead::rofl::redcard::crazy::wtf::bsflag:


Ok....yadda yadda yadda I get it...I suppose you will get a few likes as virtual high fives now for setting a POSOM like me straight. But waywards aren't one hundred percent evil. I honestly do believe that only a wayward that wants to hurt a betrayed would divulge all when asked. I suppose one could call it tact...but...its still withholding. A wayward will ALWAYS hold some things back if they care about that person, and I still maintain that they should. Gasp!....I just said a wayward cares about their spouse's feelings....Unbelievable! I suppose you could say but, "they didn't care when they were banging such and such" bla, bla, bla....I get it cheating is bad. 

Ok, my sincerest apologies for the snark. I'm giving you reality though,...I don't think any BS in the history of TAM has the *whole* truth about an affair, and for good reason. At some point there is nothing else to tell that would benefit anyone. Its like dropping a second atomic bomb on a city that is already in ashes. I am curious if those replying have actually lived this...or if its a hypothetical to them. Because having these conversations in real life does NOT follow a script. People will ask things in an emotional state and regret it big time later.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> Ok....yadda yadda yadda I get it...I suppose you will get a few likes as virtual high fives now for setting a POSOM like me straight. But waywards aren't one hundred percent evil. I honestly do believe that only a wayward that wants to hurt a betrayed would divulge all when asked. I suppose one could call it tact...but...its still withholding. A wayward will ALWAYS hold some things back if they care about that person, and I still maintain that they should. Gasp!....I just said a wayward cares about their spouse's feelings....Unbelievable! I suppose you could say but, "they didn't care when they were banging such and such" bla, bla, bla....I get it cheating is bad.
> 
> Ok, my sincerest apologies for the snark. I'm giving you reality though,...I don't think any BS in the history of TAM has the *whole* truth about an affair, and for good reason. At some point there is nothing else to tell that would benefit anyone. Its like dropping a second atomic bomb on a city that is already in ashes. I am curious if those replying have actually lived this...or if its a hypothetical to them. Because having these conversations in real life does NOT follow a script. People will ask things in an emotional state and regret it big time later.


There's still two possible paths for the BS, neither of which justifies withholding.
1. Reconcile. True reconciliation can only be done in full light of the truth. If the WS thinks the AP was hotter, the BS needs to know that. They may still choose to try to reconcile because of the other elements of the relationship, and that's their choice. But if they don't know, they have had choice removed from them and they are making a decision in the dark and, no matter how you spin it, that is not a loving thing to do. 

2. Divorce. In which case the BS will be back on the market. It's cruel to send them back out into the market not knowing their limitiations, deficiencies, or what they can do to improve their marketability. 

It's also important under either path, that the BS know the truth so if the fact is that the WS is just a POS, that they (the BS) are just fine (which is often the case) and they need not have their self confidence crushed as they reenter the world. What is cruel is for them to go back into the world just not knowing. 

Is it painful? Hell yes! So is getting a root canal, but it beats losing the tooth entirely. A short burst of intense pain is worth the longer term knowledge that comes from it. 

I suspect a lot of WSs would not engage in such rationalization if telling didn't mean they were present to witness the agony they've caused.

Returning to the original statement, the proposition that, no matter how badly emotionally compromised the BS may be, that the BS is more trustworthy to decide the most appropriate level of disclosure, is positively ludicrous.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> There's still two possible paths for the BS,
> 
> *2. Divorce. In which case the BS will be back on the market. It's cruel to send them back out into the market not knowing their limitiations, deficiencies, or what they can do to improve their marketability. *
> 
> It's also important under either path, that the BS know the truth so if the fact is that the WS is just a POS, that they (the BS) are just fine (which is often the case) and they need not have their self confidence crushed as they reenter the world. What is cruel is for them to go back into the world just not knowing.



I am one hundred percent in agreement that total truth is necessary for reconciliation...but in my case since I was going for divorce, I wouldn't have told those details if asked...because it would have been far more damaging than just temporary. I guess deficient is the wrong word. I think most men would be more than happy to be married to my ex, she isn't deficient, just not compatible with me. I felt most of it was on me so I owned that, why influence her live up to an ideal that I have, that isn't her, if she isn't even going to be with me? Its a very impressionable time...most BS's are still in love with their spouse. I think a BS should be their true selves when they find a new partner instead of looking back and working on things that fit their previous life.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> I am one hundred percent in agreement that total truth is necessary for reconciliation...but in my case since I was going for divorce, I wouldn't have told those details if asked...because it would have been far more damaging than just temporary. I guess deficient is the wrong word. I think most men would be more than happy to be married to my ex, she isn't deficient, just not compatible with me. I felt most of it was on me so I owned that, why influence her live up to an ideal that I have, that isn't her, if she isn't even going to be with me? Its a very impressionable time...most BS's are still in love with their spouse. I think a BS should be their true selves when they find a new partner instead of looking back and working on things that fit their previous life.


First you said, all others were hotter, as though it was some sort of intrinsic quality.

Now you're saying just more compatible. If that's the truth, you darn well should tell that so your ex isn't racked with self doubt! 

But even if the former, I would like to be told, so I know where I stand. While I've never been the victim of marital infidelity, I have been dumped and I always wanted to know why so I could do better next time if I had been somehow not up to par, or not worry about it if I was not the cause.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> First you said, all others were hotter, as though it was some sort of intrinsic quality.
> 
> Now you're saying just more compatible. If that's the truth, you darn well should tell that so your ex isn't racked with self doubt!


As for hotness...not really something that is number one on my list of qualities in a woman, but yes...its top three....But had she asked and I told her they were hotter what exactly could she have done about that. Get surgery or something? Kill herself in the gym? No regrets here at all when it comes to what I divulged. Her dignity at the end was more important to me (yes I did care about that). Even now you won't find pics of me and my post marital life anywhere. I even avoid taking dates to spots I know her friends might see me even though the marriage is over. Its about respecting the mother of my kids and her feelings, and I refuse to let anyone on here tell me its about my own ego or cowardice or whatever. Done speaking on it...you are more than welcome to have the last word. Certainly no hard feelings on my part. Thanks for the different point of view...but in my life...it wasn't the right call.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> As for hotness...not really something that is number one on my list of qualities in a woman, but yes...its top three....But had she asked and I told her they were hotter what exactly could she have done about that. Get surgery or something? Kill herself in the gym? No regrets here at all when it comes to what I divulged. *Her dignity at the end was more important to me *(yes I did care about that). Even now you won't find pics of me and my post marital life anywhere. I even avoid taking dates to spots I know her friends might see me even though the marriage is over. Its about respecting the mother of my kids and her feelings, and I refuse to let anyone on here tell me its about my own ego or cowardice or whatever. Done speaking on it...you are more than welcome to have the last word. Certainly no hard feelings on my part. Thanks for the different point of view...but in my life...it wasn't the right call.


One can only walk in dignity if one walks in the truth. Walking in ignorance does not equate to dignity.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> ReformedHubby said:
> 
> 
> > As for hotness...not really something that is number one on my list of qualities in a woman, but yes...its top three....But had she asked and I told her they were hotter what exactly could she have done about that. Get surgery or something? Kill herself in the gym? No regrets here at all when it comes to what I divulged. *Her dignity at the end was more important to me *(yes I did care about that). Even now you won't find pics of me and my post marital life anywhere. I even avoid taking dates to spots I know her friends might see me even though the marriage is over. Its about respecting the mother of my kids and her feelings, and I refuse to let anyone on here tell me its about my own ego or cowardice or whatever. Done speaking on it...you are more than welcome to have the last word. Certainly no hard feelings on my part. Thanks for the different point of view...but in my life...it wasn't the right call.
> ...


Surely, you can say some women are hotter than your wife even if you wouldn't trade her because of the whole package and history together. I doubt pointing out to your wife everytime a chick walks by and saying 'wow, she's really hot! Like you are an 8, but her, she's a clear 10!' I can't imagine that conversation ending well in any man's head.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Surely, you can say some women are hotter than your wife even if you wouldn't trade her because of the whole package and history together. I doubt pointing out to your wife everytime a chick walks by and saying 'wow, she's really hot! Like you are an 8, but her, she's a clear 10!' I can't imagine that conversation ending well in any man's head.


A completely irrelevant comparison. I've never cheated on, nor will I ever cheat on, my wife. There is no question of her right to know why I did such a thing because I never did such a thing. 

If I was to leave her, and she asked why, I'd answer honestly. I would not hide my dissatasfaction with our sex life. In fact, I have shared that with her within the marriage rather than look elsewhere in the first place. Were she to not make efforts to improve she'd already know exactly why I was leaving to look elsewhere.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Surely, you can say some women are hotter than your wife even if you wouldn't trade her because of the whole package and history together. I doubt pointing out to your wife everytime a chick walks by and saying 'wow, she's really hot! Like you are an 8, but her, she's a clear 10!' I can't imagine that conversation ending well in any man's head.
> ...


True. But the same thing that stops you from being an ass and saying those things, like respect for your wife and self-preservation, is at work with RH. Certainly, he could tell her and maybe he should if hottness would cause him to cheat on her again. If he is happy with her and is really reformed, a big 'if', then seems like something most people think but not say. Honesty isn't always the best policy especially in trivial matters like a hotness scale.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> Ok....yadda yadda yadda I get it...I suppose you will get a few likes as virtual high fives now for setting a POSOM like me straight. But waywards aren't one hundred percent evil. I honestly do believe that only a wayward that wants to hurt a betrayed would divulge all when asked. I suppose one could call it tact...but...its still withholding. A wayward will ALWAYS hold some things back if they care about that person, and I still maintain that they should. Gasp!....I just said a wayward cares about their spouse's feelings....Unbelievable! I suppose you could say but, "they didn't care when they were banging such and such" bla, bla, bla....I get it cheating is bad.
> 
> Ok, my sincerest apologies for the snark. I'm giving you reality though,...I don't think any BS in the history of TAM has the *whole* truth about an affair, and for good reason. At some point there is nothing else to tell that would benefit anyone. Its like dropping a second atomic bomb on a city that is already in ashes. I am curious if those replying have actually lived this...or if its a hypothetical to them. Because having these conversations in real life does NOT follow a script. People will ask things in an emotional state and regret it big time later.


I'll agree that bs rarely get the whole truth. I'm much more of a big picture guy, I really didn't care if my crazy ex had good, great or bad sex with Mr perfect. She had an affair, end of story. I do tend to tell people to focus on the fact an affair took place much more than getting lost in the details of did they do this or that.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> True. *But the same thing that stops you from being an ass and saying those things, like respect for your wife and self-preservation, is at work with RH*. Certainly, he could tell her and maybe he should if hottness would cause him to cheat on her again. If he is happy with her and is really reformed, a big 'if', then seems like something most people think but not say. Honesty isn't always the best policy especially in trivial matters like a hotness scale.


Unfortunately my time as "Reformed" was short lived. So I decided to leave the marriage instead of continuing to live a double life on occasion. I still feel everyone needs to asses their own situation...my wife saw pics of more than one mistress...one was particularly hot...she looked like Pam Anderson from Baywatch days...I watched how simply seeing that photo impacted my wife. That one REALLY bothered her. She worked out like a crazy woman....trying to achieve something that was never even possible....Something I didn't want for her.....that was when I realized I needed to end things..... I left the marriage....and I spared her from trying to reinvent herself for me. She is better off finding someone that loves her for her. Yes....I decided that for her....I also decided to leave the marriage, although everyone here says that should also be up to the betrayed...and I don't care what anyone on TAM thinks about it. 

I made the right call for her. She loves me far too much to take what comes out of my mouth as constructive criticism, she would live it, breathe it, internalize it, and change herself to her own detriment, to try and win me back. She isn't thinking about other guys at all. NOT ALL SITUATIONS ARE THE SAME.... This does not mean she is "weak" either. In many ways she is far stronger than anyone I know. So if anyone talks about my ex negatively I might post some ban worthy things in my reply. As far as I am concerned the mother of my kids is a saint. The fault was with me. I can't believe this is even a point of debate. 

Who in their right mind would tell an early 40s mother of three that she should look like what one percent of the female population looks like? Thats ridiculous, and of zero benefit to her. You do know that if you say someone is hotter...they are going to ask you for a pic right? She asked for that pic...I obliged...its one of the biggest regrets of my life. More so than the cheating even. Once certain doors are cracked...people have a tendency to try and push through them...even if whats on the other side can harm them...I never asked my wife...don't need to....I know she wishes she didn't see that pic. I will say it again....there is the thought of things....and there is reality...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> Unfortunately my time as "Reformed" was short lived. So I decided to leave the marriage instead of continuing to live a double life on occasion. I still feel everyone needs to asses their own situation...my wife saw pics of more than one mistress...one was particularly hot...she looked like Pam Anderson from Baywatch days...I watched how simply seeing that photo impacted my wife. That one REALLY bothered her. She worked out like a crazy woman....trying to achieve something that was never even possible....Something I didn't want for her.....that was when I realized I needed to end things..... I left the marriage....and I spared her from trying to reinvent herself for me. She is better off finding someone that loves her for her. Yes....I decided that for her....I also decided to leave the marriage, although everyone here says that should also be up to the betrayed...and I don't care what anyone on TAM thinks about it.
> 
> I made the right call for her. She loves me far too much to take what comes out of my mouth as constructive criticism, she would live it, breathe it, internalize it, and change herself to her own detriment, to try and win me back. She isn't thinking about other guys at all. NOT ALL SITUATIONS ARE THE SAME.... This does not mean she is "weak" either. In many ways she is far stronger than anyone I know. So if anyone talks about my ex negatively I might post some ban worthy things in my reply. As far as I am concerned the mother of my kids is a saint. The fault was with me. I can't believe this is even a point of debate.
> 
> Who in their right mind would tell an early 40s mother of three that she should look like what one percent of the female population looks like? Thats ridiculous, and of zero benefit to her. You do know that if you say someone is hotter...they are going to ask you for a pic right? She asked for that pic...I obliged...its one of the biggest regrets of my life. More so than the cheating even. Once certain doors are cracked...people have a tendency to try and push through them...even if whats on the other side can harm them...I never asked my wife...don't need to....I know she wishes she didn't see that pic. I will say it again....there is the thought of things....and there is reality...


What if the woman had been less attractive? Would you having abandoned your wife for a cow be somehow less insulting? 

In showing her a pic of your bleached bimbo, all you did was demonstrate your shallowness. That's not a bad thing. 

You may feel bad about the pain you caused, but your interpretation may be off as a result. 

Funny how you have this impression of your wife as a mindless fawning lovestruck obsessive. That shows a serious lack of respect, which of course is no surprise given you repeated infidelity. 

Let's see, you have no respect for her intellect, her humanity.... or even her physical appearance. So you married her why?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> ReformedHubby said:
> 
> 
> > Unfortunately my time as "Reformed" was short lived. So I decided to leave the marriage instead of continuing to live a double life on occasion. I still feel everyone needs to asses their own situation...my wife saw pics of more than one mistress...one was particularly hot...she looked like Pam Anderson from Baywatch days...I watched how simply seeing that photo impacted my wife. That one REALLY bothered her. She worked out like a crazy woman....trying to achieve something that was never even possible....Something I didn't want for her.....that was when I realized I needed to end things..... I left the marriage....and I spared her from trying to reinvent herself for me. She is better off finding someone that loves her for her. Yes....I decided that for her....I also decided to leave the marriage, although everyone here says that should also be up to the betrayed...and I don't care what anyone on TAM thinks about it.
> ...


I have respect for all those things...precisely why i didnt add more insult to injury. Again...i lived this. You cant tell me i didnt see what i saw. I cant concede to you being right about something i lived. Its not an article, its my life. As for me leaving, it wasnt for any woman in particular, it was the right thing to do. People grow apart. 
And yes she is in love with me still...its true. But that doesnt mean i can be with her. I did try though...and she knows that.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> I have respect for all those things...precisely why i didnt add more insult to injury. Again...i lived this. You cant tell me i didnt see what i saw. I cant concede to you being right about something i lived. Its not an article, its my life. As for me leaving, it wasnt for any woman in particular, it was the right thing to do. People grow apart.
> And yes she is in love with me still...its true. But that doesnt mean i can be with her. I did try though...and she knows that.


Growing apart is one thing. It sounds like you never had any respect for her in the first place.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Growing apart is one thing. It sounds like you never had any respect for her in the first place.


Thats not true...but one could argue that no cheater has respect for their SO, I don't think things are that black and white. They certainly weren't in my situation. My frustration with our exchange is that you are basing your assumptions about a 20 plus year relationship over a few posts. My wife knows I have respect for her, she has never said a bad word about me to anyone, even now. But I won't stop you since you are on a roll. I would imagine you feel I don't love or respect my kids either. Am I triggering you because you wouldn't have left or something?  Thats the only thing I can come up with. I didn't post in this thread to hear your version of how I feel about my past, nor what my motivations were on the decisions I made. Thats not up for debate. Those are things I know.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> Thats not true...but one could argue that no cheater has respect for their SO, I don't think things are that black and white. They certainly weren't in my situation. My frustration with our exchange is that you are basing your assumptions about a 20 plus year relationship over a few posts. My wife knows I have respect for her, she has never said a bad word about me to anyone, even now. But I won't stop you since you are on a roll. I would imagine you feel I don't love or respect my kids either. Am I triggering you because you wouldn't have left or something? Thats the only thing I can come up with. I didn't post in this thread to hear your version of how I feel about my past, nor what my motivations were on the decisions I made. Thats not up for debate. Those are things I know.


I'm just being logical here. You had numerous affairs. You said every one of those women was far hotter than your wife. That doesn't sound like you thought much of her to begin with if everyone else was hotter and you were so prone to wander. But hey, you _finally _ dumped her and kept her in the dark as to why so big points for chivalry there. Very noble.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

***edited for inability to properly convey idea***


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Mr.Married said:


> It sounds like some people get all worked up because their are people in the world that were getting some in life and then frame all their disgruntledness around how they got it. Just saying.


Of course! The only reason people call out infidelity is because they're jealous they don't have a side piece themselves! Why didn't I see that before? I guess I was just too blinded by my jealousy :slap:


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm just being logical here. You had numerous affairs. You said every one of those women was far hotter than your wife. That doesn't sound like you thought much of her to begin with if everyone else was hotter and you were so prone to wander. But hey, you _finally _ dumped her and kept her in the dark as to why so big points for chivalry there. Very noble.


I didn't keep her in the dark, she knows exactly why, I just didn't tell her the level of detail you would have wanted to hear. You call it logic, I call it projection. Nothing chivalrous at all about deciding to leave someone that loves you because you don't feel the same and your needs aren't being met. Its a heartbreaking, and a very difficult choice. But it had to be done. Ironically, even though I am the cheater, I think our exchange reflects far more poorly on your character than it does mine.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> I didn't keep her in the dark, she knows exactly why, I just didn't tell her the level of detail you would have wanted to hear. You call it logic, I call it projection. Nothing chivalrous at all about deciding to leave someone that loves you because you don't feel the same and your needs aren't being met. Its a heartbreaking, and a very difficult choice. But it had to be done. Ironically, even though I am the cheater, I think our exchange reflects far more poorly on your character than it does mine.


More self aggrandizement. Your rationalization hamster is working overtime. 

I have never specified a level of detail and this is the first time you've said she knows why. Not only that, you're now saying she knows "exactly" why. All you had to do was say that in the first place... although it's hard to reconcile the word "exactly" with withholding details. But you think you found the right balance. So be it. 

But the assessment of projection is way off. You still have not said anything that explains how you came to marry a woman honestly and lovingly when you were subsequently so easily moved to cheat on and found so many others hotter. Just saying "people grow apart" doesn't even begin to explain that. Finding the world of other women hotter is not "growing apart." Cheating is bad enough, but to do so repeatedly and to assert that all those others were hotter means you had no business marrying your wife in the first place. No way around that.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Sometimes asking questions is really an attempt to humiliate / punish the WS. Like the above "did you do anal", "did you swallow" - those sorts of questions seem designed to shame / humiliate, not to find out information. IMHO if you find you want to humiliate your partner, then end the relationship.


This depends on individuals. Just like cheaters should not all be painted with a broad brush, BS's shouldn't either.

There is a recently successful reconciliation with the BH posting here where he went nearly nuclear on his faithless wonder of a wife, humiliated her a bit and got all the details honestly out of her because he both wanted and needed to.

I could see myself inflicting humiliation and shame on my wife in a similar situation so she would have to fully view her disgusting behavior in a negative light.

I definitely would not reconcile with a woman who had any benign remaining memories of her infidelity or her ****head lover.

I'm not insecure in the least so it wouldn't be pain mining for myself.

She would have every thing she did in the dark pulled into the light so she would never harbor illusions about any of it.

She would also have the opportunity to examine her feelings about me behaving in a similar fashion to complete the destruction of any illusions she could foster regarding her slimy behavior.

I'm all for the second half of your post for the motivations you posted regardless if infidelity has occurred or not.

Understanding your mates sexuality is solid in my book.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> I didn't keep her in the dark, she knows exactly why, I just didn't tell her the level of detail you would have wanted to hear. You call it logic, I call it projection. Nothing chivalrous at all about deciding to leave someone that loves you because you don't feel the same and your needs aren't being met. Its a heartbreaking, and a very difficult choice. But it had to be done. Ironically, even though I am the cheater, *I think our exchange reflects far more poorly on your character than it does mine*.


Actually, no.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I guess we are different. 
I cannot imagine intentionally humiliating someone I loved, or not leaving someone who intentionally humiliated me. To me if things have gone that far, the relationship is over. 

Many people have posted that people should leave bad marriages before cheating. If that is true, surely leaving before humiliating your spouse also makes sense. 

I do not see my wife as someone I have the right to "punish" ever, no matter what. I have the right to leave anytime I want. 




ConanHub said:


> This depends on individuals. Just like cheaters should not all be painted with a broad brush, BS's shouldn't either.
> 
> There is a recently successful reconciliation with the BH posting here where he went nearly nuclear on his faithless wonder of a wife, humiliated her a bit and got all the details honestly out of her because he both wanted and needed to.
> 
> ...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I guess we are different.
> I cannot imagine intentionally humiliating someone I loved, or not leaving someone who intentionally humiliated me. To me if things have gone that far, the relationship is over.
> 
> Many people have posted that people should leave bad marriages before cheating. If that is true, surely leaving before humiliating your spouse also makes sense.
> ...


Your dynamic is quite different from my own regardless of infidelity or not, wouldn't you agree?


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## FoolishOne (Sep 19, 2018)

Mr.Married said:


> It sounds like some people get all worked up because there are people in the world that were getting some in life and then frame all their disgruntlement around how they got it to conceal their butt-hurtness. Just saying.


That's disgusting. Yeah... People are just jealous of not getting some on the side themselves... Not. Life isn't a contest to see who can have the most sex with the most pretty\handsome people. Sick. Just sick. And that's coming from a former wayward.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> Its not like I don't understand what you are trying to say. I just don't think this happy medium is possible to do, and yes sometimes I think its a waywards job to protect the betrayed from what they think they want to know. In any real life scenario that I can think of. If a woman tells a man her lover was better, are you guys seriously telling me that her betrayed husband isn't going to ask for more specific details? How was he better? What did he do, etc.? It all pretty much leads down the same path. At least in the real world it does with an actual man thats been cheated on. All of this discussion sounds good in practice....but I'd still exercise serious caution if you found yourself on either side BS or WS.
> 
> I'm also not sure how much value a WS giving you reasons they cheated helps you with the next relationship either. Its ok to want to know why they broke there vows, but it has little value for you as a person if you aren't reconciling. I mean...its not like you are going to be in a relationship with them, and if they left you because there wasn't enough sex, or you were a alcoholic, or whatever...pretty sure they mentioned those things before and during the affair. Most people do.


Making a false assumption that every BS will want to know the same level of detail.
Some things learned can lead to the BS improving their skills. Whether with the WS
or their next one.

One thing I know is that the lack of truth will prevent recovery being successful. They
may stay married for the next thirty years. Though the BS will still be needing and wanting
the answers to those questions thirty years later.

Leaving the BS is limbo is not being kind.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> I didn't keep her in the dark, she knows exactly why, I just didn't tell her the level of detail you would have wanted to hear. You call it logic, I call it projection. Nothing chivalrous at all about deciding to leave someone that loves you because you don't feel the same and your needs aren't being met. Its a heartbreaking, and a very difficult choice. But it had to be done. Ironically, even though I am the cheater, I think our exchange reflects far more poorly on your character than it does mine.


Not volunteering information is one thing.

Refusing to tell when asked is another.


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## Satisfied Mind (Jan 29, 2019)

ReformedHubby said:


> Ok....yadda yadda yadda I get it...I suppose you will get a few likes as virtual high fives now for setting a POSOM like me straight. But waywards aren't one hundred percent evil. I honestly do believe that only a wayward that wants to hurt a betrayed would divulge all when asked. I suppose one could call it tact...but...its still withholding. A wayward will ALWAYS hold some things back if they care about that person, and I still maintain that they should. Gasp!....I just said a wayward cares about their spouse's feelings....Unbelievable! I suppose you could say but, "they didn't care when they were banging such and such" bla, bla, bla....I get it cheating is bad.
> 
> Ok, my sincerest apologies for the snark. I'm giving you reality though,...I don't think any BS in the history of TAM has the *whole* truth about an affair, and for good reason. At some point there is nothing else to tell that would benefit anyone. Its like dropping a second atomic bomb on a city that is already in ashes. I am curious if those replying have actually lived this...or if its a hypothetical to them. Because having these conversations in real life does NOT follow a script. People will ask things in an emotional state and regret it big time later.


I don't think you're "evil," but I also don't think that not "divulging all when asked" is an altruistic attempt to protect the wayward as much as it is a manipulative attempt to control the outcome. Every WS and BS is different, but we repeatedly see here the situation where the WS knows that telling the whole truth will put the final nail in the coffin of the relationship, and he or she holds back as much as possible in a selfish effort to save it. Where I think the whole truth is less necessary is when the relationship is over regardless. In that case, piling on with gratuitous details serves no purpose other than to hurt the BS further.

If, however, the relationship is to be salvaged, the WS owes the BS complete and truthful answers to everything the BS wants to know. It doesn't matter whether the WS thinks the information would be hurtful, relevant or anything else. The BS has a decision to make regarding whether to reconcile, and the BS is entitled to whatever information he or she thinks is relevant to that decision. It's the height of arrogance and just more selfishness and manipulation for the WS to think he or she has the right (or ability) to protect the BS after destroying his or her life or deciding that the BS is only asking something in a state of passion and doesn't really want to know. FoolishOne previously explained really well why that information may be critical for a BS. 

I was cheated on in a LTR prior to getting married. I wanted to know the gory details, which helped me to understand that she had better chemistry and sex with the OM and confirmed that we needed to end it because I wasn't going to spend the rest of my life in a relationship with someone who ultimately wasn't sufficiently sexually compatible. When I heard the hard, gory details, it also made me much more sure that I'd gotten something reasonably approximating the truth. I'd approach the situation the same way now if it were my wife of 12 years instead.

I do appreciate your honesty in your position and sticking around to explain it despite the heavy criticism.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

oldtruck said:


> ReformedHubby said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't keep her in the dark, she knows exactly why, I just didn't tell her the level of detail you would have wanted to hear. You call it logic, I call it projection. Nothing chivalrous at all about deciding to leave someone that loves you because you don't feel the same and your needs aren't being met. Its a heartbreaking, and a very difficult choice. But it had to be done. Ironically, even though I am the cheater, I think our exchange reflects far more poorly on your character than it does mine.
> ...


Depends, RH left the marriage. Now if he stayed around, then I would say he should have divulged when asked, whether he wanted to or not. But since their marriage was over, what good would it have done for her to know all the tawdry secrets?


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Depends, RH left the marriage. Now if he stayed around, then I would say he should have divulged when asked, whether he wanted to or not. But since their marriage was over, what good would it have done for her to know all the tawdry secrets?


It is not how much information that the WS, you, or anyone else thinks.

It is only the right of the BS to decide how much they want to know. Some
do not want to know much, and others every last detail.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

I could see why they prefer the AP, the sex was better. Particularly their oral accumen!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ReformedHubby said:


> Ok....yadda yadda yadda I get it...I suppose you will get a few likes as virtual high fives now for setting a POSOM like me straight. But waywards aren't one hundred percent evil. I honestly do believe that only a wayward that wants to hurt a betrayed would divulge all when asked. I suppose one could call it tact...but...its still withholding. A wayward will ALWAYS hold some things back if they care about that person, and I still maintain that they should. Gasp!....I just said a wayward cares about their spouse's feelings....Unbelievable! I suppose you could say but, "they didn't care when they were banging such and such" bla, bla, bla....I get it cheating is bad.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, my sincerest apologies for the snark. I'm giving you reality though,...I don't think any BS in the history of TAM has the *whole* truth about an affair, and for good reason. At some point there is nothing else to tell that would benefit anyone. Its like dropping a second atomic bomb on a city that is already in ashes. I am curious if those replying have actually lived this...or if its a hypothetical to them. Because having these conversations in real life does NOT follow a script. People will ask things in an emotional state and regret it big time later.



One, I do not believe a wayward that withholds information that is asked for is actually looking out for the betrayed spouse. It is more likely that they are actually just looking out for themselves. This is pure rationalization and an attempt to turn the victimizer into a martyr. “Oh look at what a great guy I am, I’m trying to protect you from having to know what I really did! You’re so lucky to be with someone that looks out for you the way I do.”

Two, a wayward does not get to decide what their betrayed needs. Some people need full details in order to heal. I’m one of them, and it was denied me in my first marriage. It delayed my healing by a long time. I suspect this isn’t about them healing, it’s about them staying with you or you dodging accountability. You’re not a parent and they’re not a child. This alone betrays the power dynamic that you secretly think is in play - that you’re somehow above, better, and in charge. You’re not.

Three, you need to understand that cheating is actually abuse on many levels. From the lying, the gaslighting, the betrayal of trust to exposing your partner to STDs and PTSD. If you have cheated on someone, you have abused someone. Full stop.

Four, your whole post isn’t quite 100% evil, but you can see it from there. And I suspect you’ve done quite well rationalizing how much you actually like it.


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## cashcratebob (Jan 10, 2018)

I'll be quite honest, if this happened with my wife I wouldn't care to know because the reality is I would know. It would be what this article is saying. No amount of her trying to convince me would work. I mean she already lied. 

15 years of marriage against a new exciting and novel experience with someone else, someone who really doesn't care about her or what she thinks or wants, as much as just getting theirs. Except given the scenario, that's exactly what she wants. So her mind is blown. Nah...I don't care, cause honestly why trouble myself?...the response is going to be divorce anyways. 

Plus it is apparent to me that my wife's' enjoyment of sex varies a lot more than mine. For me...sex is always pretty great...i mean with very little variation in that description. However, that certainly not the case for her. Her experience varies widely; what worked last Friday to get her really revved up doesn't really do squat the next weekend. Or when I think that this is a "routine" night, all the sudden she surprises me and goes off the deep. I perceive she has, at times, enjoyed sex more than I ever have and I also believe she has experienced less than satisfying sex more times than me. All this, plus a lot of other info, leads me to believe the reality that the enjoyment of sex for women is predicated on a lot more circumstances than it is for men...an affair checks many of those boxes. There's been quiet a bit of honest feedback regarding this dynamic from some of the women on TAM regarding this. Husbands who want to communicate with their wives regarding sex are already defeated because there are a lot of women who don't want to talk about it, that ruins it; rather they love the excitement of the unknown. I try to bring that to the table but it ain't super easy, again being a communicative husband.

This isn't a complaint about my sex life...just an acknowledgement of the reality. I think I am pretty good in the sack but if the **** hit the fan and this scenario went down, I know that it is very very likely she enjoyed it way more than most, if not all, experiences with me. 

I don't think this is quiet the same for men...but I dunno. I don't have a lot of insight on that except for my own sexual experience with my one lady, and some of the situations told by cheaters (liars).


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

cashcratebob said:


> Nah...I don't care, cause honestly why trouble myself?...the response is going to be divorce anyways.


That got a laugh out of me.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Maybe the trick is to ravish her, then act like you are just out for your own pleasure while actually hitting the right spots? Along with a different move set each time? Some grunting and dirty talk and spanking on top for good measure?


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

CraigBesuden said:


> Maybe the trick is to ravish her, then act like you are just out for your own pleasure while actually hitting the right spots? Along with a different move set each time? Some grunting and dirty talk and spanking on top for good measure?



Why? 

Why make the effort to "win" her back sexually?

If that situation happened to me, then my view, she made her choice. She is already damaged goods for cheating; by definition, there are billions of OTHER women in the world who haven't cheated on me. That gives them an advantage right there. What are the odds you can't find one that will be even better for you than the cheater?


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Marduk said:


> Three, you need to understand that cheating is actually abuse on many levels. From the lying, the gaslighting, the betrayal of trust to exposing your partner to STDs and PTSD. If you have cheated on someone, you have abused someone. Full stop.


This!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

oldtruck said:


> It is not how much information that the WS, you, or anyone else thinks.
> 
> It is only the right of the BS to decide how much they want to know. Some
> do not want to know much, and others every last detail.


I did not want to know a damn thing. Not one damn thing. No details. At all.

I think that would have broken me, to be honest.

Knowing about the affair was bad enough.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Marduk said:


> One, I do not believe a wayward that withholds information that is asked for is actually looking out for the betrayed spouse. It is more likely that they are actually just looking out for themselves. This is pure rationalization and an attempt to turn the victimizer into a martyr. “Oh look at what a great guy I am, I’m trying to protect you from having to know what I really did! You’re so lucky to be with someone that looks out for you the way I do.”
> 
> Two, a wayward does not get to decide what their betrayed needs. Some people need full details in order to heal. I’m one of them, and it was denied me in my first marriage. It delayed my healing by a long time. I suspect this isn’t about them healing, it’s about them staying with you or you dodging accountability. You’re not a parent and they’re not a child. This alone betrays the power dynamic that you secretly think is in play - that you’re somehow above, better, and in charge. You’re not.
> 
> ...


The WS might be trying to protect their BS. They might also be, unconsciously, trying to protect themselves from having to show what a real rotten person they have been to the last person in the world they should have hurt.


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