# Learning boundaries and healing for the next step



## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Had my first IC today. I am really happy, I feel like I really clicked with her. 
Some thoughts about my situation based on our talk and some reading material she gave me:
1. I have no boundaries. I match about 90% of that behavior. I wrote 2 pages of notes about my unhealthy boundaries.
2. XH is a playbook narcissist. I knew he was one, but I guess it was blatantly obvious to my therapist
3. I need to change 
4. This does have something to do with my childhood
5. I am 100% committed to changing the way I handle/have relationships

No word from XH in 5 days. This will be a record for us. Usually I would give in. He is expecting me to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

struggle said:


> *4. This does have something to do with my childhood*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

Definitely explore this in IC.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

struggle said:


> Had my first IC today. I am really happy, I feel like I really clicked with her.
> Some thoughts about my situation based on our talk and some reading material she gave me:
> 1. I have no boundaries. I match about 90% of that behavior. I wrote 2 pages of notes about my unhealthy boundaries.
> 2. XH is a playbook narcissist. I knew he was one, but I guess it was blatantly obvious to my therapist
> ...


Stay strong, struggles. Good for you for going to IC and liking your therapist.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

N's are master game players. And if we try to play their head games they always win, they are better at it. 

Non contact is the only way to keep from getting sucked into the anxiety and depression that are sure to follow when you live with an N. long enough.

It's very hard for us to break our addiction to them, but essential for our soul and sanity.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Lots of codependency starts with family dynamics and childhood issues. You can become codependent over the course of a marriage and a series of painful events. My ex also has narcissistic-traits, but also tons of paranoia. Everything was a crisis and to him, I was always to blame. Once you find the strength to reject the blame for someone else's life, your life will change.
Keep up the work.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Thanks everyone.

That's so true indie cat...they are masters, and you can't play the same head games with them. It's like wrestling with yourself. And playing nice doesn't work with them either. 

It's like a constant game of trying to suck you back into their spell. And if they aren't sure if you deserve to be back in their good graces again....they will string you along just so you don't 'stray' too far away from their grasp. And if you call them out on said, 'stringing along', you are the one with the problem.

I have a lot of anxiety when it comes to my X still. It's like I don't know how he's going to react to anything. I did have to text him today about making a payment on something, and I got anxiety just thinking about texting him. His answer was 'ok thank you', so we'll see what happens. But I'm trying not to think about whether or not he'll actually do what he's supposed to do. But I left it at that...business only.

I'm very interested in exploring where my codependency came from. I'm leaning towards childhood since both my marriages (I met my 1st H when I was 18), I put up with a lot of disrespect and emotional abuse. I never learned and/or was never confident enough to defend my boundries with someone I love. I was afraid to walk away. My parents relationship, and the relationship with my mother probably has something to do with that. Even my very first friendship in school, I showed signed of this.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Great weekend overall, less a little bump in the road, but I didn't let it keep me down for long

No-contact was going great until my mechanic decided to call XH to translate the parts I needed for my car for a tune-up (he speaks mostly Spanish). Neither of us has divulged to him that we are no longer together so it was kind of awkward..... I spoke with XH about the parts I needed per what the mechanic said. Of course he couldn't help but throw in a "I'm always hooking you up" comment. Yeah X....you're "the man" *thumbs-down-middle-finger-in-the air* He's hilarious....really.....funny...... it's just a joke, don't you know? I ignored his comments and just said a pleasant 'thank you' at the end.

I had anxiety for about 30 minutes after that convo but then I just talked myself back to calm and serenity.

I also went to my XMIL house to pick up my mountain bike and bike-rack for my car. I spoke with her and abuela for a good 20 mins before I had to leave. It was nice to see abuela, she's so sweet, so full of hugs and kisses and te quieros. Then I had the task of trying to put the bike rack on my car...  I stared at it for a couple minutes...then I youtubed it on my phone....and jerry-rigged it. I was totally doing it wrong but I didn't care...I was just trying to get it home LOL. I'm sure it looked ridiculous. I don't even know if that rack fits my lexus...I bought it when I had a lesabre...so who knows haha. But I got it home without an incident so I think I did pretty good! Pretty happy to have my bike, just have to take it for a tune-up the poor thing has been in storage for too long.

I had a great phone convo with my mom for an hour. Which is a miracle considering she never answers her phone or likes to talk on the phone. She was very supportive and happy to hear about my IC. She was talking to me about the ways that I'm different from my other sisters, what I value, what makes me feel loved, what's important to me, etc. It was nice to just have that connection for awhile.

Oh, and I put together my own piece of furniture yesterday...again. A media cabinet that had lots of little screws and locking mechanism thingies. I did an amazing job. I'm practically a carpenter nowadays  Love the cabinet. It's yellow and cheerful....and I did it myself


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Had my second IC today. Had a good talk about my childhood.
As a matter of fact...it is directly related to the issues I have right now. She kept pointing out connections to things that I would've never thought of. I am in a cycle of emotional abuse. I was never allowed to set boundaries growing up, therefore I don't know how to place them in relationships. And unfortunately, the men I've chosen also do not respect boundaries. 

On a happier note, I booked a flight to sunny CA for my birthday at the end of April. My cousin lives out there, and I'm going to spend a week with her and her little family and I'm going to see Cali for the first time ever!! :smthumbup: So excited. 

Gotta get Cali-weather ready, so time to get real with healthier eating and lots of water


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

When you wrestle with a pig, you get dirty.

And, the pig likes it...


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

My marriage is radio silent. Rejection hurts.

I'm doing self-care, I need to keep moving forward. 
I have a massage scheduled in a week, I'm still working out with a PT, I had a fantastic hot yoga class last night, I'm doing IC which has been really positive, and I'm going on vacation to Cali for my bday in a month. Something XH never ever did for me. Even though I asked him from the very beginning, and kept asking him. No presents..just travel. And I got...nothing. Yet somehow, on my own, I'm doing it. Crazy.

I have to keep thinking about all the positive stuff I'm doing. It's hard not to blame myself. If I think about the rejection too much I start wondering if it's my fault. Maybe I'm everything he said I was. 

Digging into my relationship with my mom in IC was not easy. It brought up some things I don't like to think about. I have to push them away to have a relationship with her. But then you have someone telling you 'that's abuse...that's abuse...that's abuse' and all I can do is agree. Yet I keep coming back for more, she's my mom, when things are good they're good, when they're bad they're bad. It's the way it is. Co-dependence, insecurity, lack of boundries, fear of abandonment .... hello! 

I have a lot to reflect on this week. But I'm thankful to have TAM here to help me through this!


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

It takes a long time to build self esteem, an N knows your soft spots and programs you to doubt yourself, you opinions, your reactions. They can make even the most wonderful person feel like a terrible person, but only for awhile, then you see the pattern. 

Its great that you are getting away. 

I hope in time you will be able to tell your mother when she crosses the line.


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## LBHmidwest (Jan 3, 2014)

Hang in there struggle! Use that gym release time!


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Thanks indiecat. Sometimes I feel strong and sometimes I feel weak. I will have to remember what you said....it takes a long time to build self esteem.
I am the only one of my siblings that even remotely stands up to my mom. And I'm still not that great at it. I hope I can get to the point to tell her when she's being mean/etc and not feel guilty standing up for myself

Thanks LBH!! I did boot camp today! I feel better that I did earlier! This weekend I think I will stick with treadmill and/or yoga
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SteveK (Mar 15, 2014)

indiecat said:


> N's are master game players. And if we try to play their head games they always win, they are better at it.
> 
> Non contact is the only way to keep from getting sucked into the anxiety and depression that are sure to follow when you live with an N. long enough.
> 
> It's very hard for us to break our addiction to them, but essential for our soul and sanity.


Don't I know it. It took me until my wife left to realize how much of a N she was.

My problem was I handled it completely wrong.

I had no boundaries, she had no boundaries.

And worse of all I became possessive and controlling as well as anxious, but guess what those are not boundaries and her POSOM never ever respected anyone's boundaries and she did not have any. So I am loosing her...

Believe me you really need to work on this..this is what I have been working on with my IC, what are boundaries , what are demands and what is just straight up Emotional abuse.

I hope you can learn from this as I hope to.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

I hope to learn more about boundaries too. My counselor seemed pretty surprised at how many items I checked off that I thought described me. There were no boundaries with my mom so I apparently don't know how to set them, or don't have the confidence to maintain them. To maintain a relationship with my mom, I had to forget the hurtful things. I try to set boundaries but they are broken down and I just basically let them. I get mad, there's a fight, but then I eventually let it go because my resolve faulters, whether from the things my XH (or mom) would throw back at me, his silent treatment afterward, or I'm just tired of being mad. 

We are now touching on emotional abuse, as I've lived with it basically my whole life. Reading the material she gave me and just trying to write my thoughts.

It's so funny that with personal relationships I'm so weak but to the outside world I seem like a normal confident woman. The few friends that I've told about my IC all look surprised (except my BFF of course) and say "wow...I wouldn't think you'd put up with that sh*t. You seem so strong and forthcoming with your opinion" I guess I'm tougher to those that don't involve "love". Once I let them in I'm like a doormat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Ugh!!! Someone hold me back from getting emotional on his a$$
The ONE thing we have together is our bills and he has to be so $&@"!$ difficult about it
I don't know what else to say to him, I can't make him become a responsible man
Do I have to put up with this for another 5 months?
I guess I should just THANK MY LUCKY STARS that I get anything at all....I'm on fire right now....he knows how to push my buttons. He shorts me on freakin purpose
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

This sucks. This whole situation sucks 
I hate this. 
I hate that he can get under my skin. The ONLY contact we have and he treats me like I'm the last on his list. As usual.
I wish I didn't care. I can't wait to get there.
For now I'm going to cry.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

So....I'm going to continue my ramble for a bit. I just talked with my friend. Instead of hiding away and suffering on my own like I usually do.

He doesn't care anymore. It's all in my head. Any inkling that he have a sh*t anymore was all in my head. 
That's pretty pathetic.....
I thought I was over the mourning part.
Is it a relief?
I can't tell yet
I cannot believe my marriage is really over...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

There is a book called Boundaries that my IC hands out like candy. Perhaps it would be useful to you as well: 
http://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-When-Take-Control-Your/dp/0310247454/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_y

And the workbook:
Boundaries Workbook: When to Say Yes When to Say No To Take Control of Your Life: Henry Cloud, John Townsend: 9780310494812: Amazon.com: Books


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Emotional disaster from last night is over. I slept it off. 

Time to hide my crazy and start acting like a lady  Lol. No, but really... that hurt. A lot. I don't know what else to say about that right now.

I did some reading that my IC gave me to do this week on emotional abuse. XH scored a 13 out of 20 ways a spouse can EA. I wrote them in my journal, and wrote examples off the top of my head. It's so crazy that I KNEW he was being a "jerk" (aka EA), but I didn't have the definition why. I didn't have the knowledge behind me to know exactly WHY the way he was treating me was wrong. So it did turn into an anger situation with me, and I withdrew and starting losing respect for him...and in the reading it talked about how EA relationships eventually turn into anger and resentment. Which is what happened with us. The problem at this point is that I'm the one whose trying to seek help and change, but he doesn't see himself as having any issues at all. So the marriage is not going to work. 

I almost said "that is sad". But you know what. Screw that. I deserve better. Why be sad about losing someone who just hurts you?


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## parker (Dec 2, 2012)

I think, coming from a divorce newbie, that it can be therapeutic to release anger and frustration. Especially when your buttons are pushed or during the times you feel like you've been totally disregarded or blown off. BTW I'd like to see the list, is it a part of the Boundaries Workbook?


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

The list is from The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing by Beverly Engel

I will write the list for you.

You're right it's ok to release anger and frustration. In my relationship with my STBXH and my mom.....my feelings were never validated, it was not OK for me to get mad or have a different opinion so I tend to be apologetic for it. X knows how to get to me, it's just amazes me at the one tiniest opening he will take advantage of, and could care less about my feelings....and then he sees it as me, struggle, being the unreasonable mean person starting stuff again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

You are going to go through a roller coaster of emotions. Buckle up. It is a tough ride. You are on the right track though it seems.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Emotional Abuse Questionnaire according to "The Emotionally Abusive Relationship":

1. Do you feel as if your partner treats you like a child? Does he constantly correct you or chastise you because your behavior is "inapprorpriate"? Do you feel you must "get permission" before going somewhere or before making even the smallest of decisions? Do you have to account for any money you spend, or does he attempt to control your spending (even though he has no problem spending on himself?)

2. Does your partner treat you as if you are "less than" or inferior to her? Does your partner make a point of reminding you that you are less educated or that you make less money or that you aren't as attractive as she is?

3. Does your partner routiney ridicule, dismiss, or disregard your opinions, thoughts, suggestions, and feelings?

4. Does your partner constantly belittle your accomplishments, your aspirations, or your plans for the future?

5. Do you find yourself "walking on eggshells"? Do you spend a lot of time monitoring your behavior and/or watching for your partner's bad moods before bringing up a subject?

6. Have you stopped seeing many or all of your friends and/or family since being in this relationship? Did you do this because your partner dislikes them, because your partner feels jealous of the time you spent with them, or because you are ashamed of the way he treats you in front of them? Did you stop seeing friends and family because you are ashamed of the fact that you're still with him, even though you've complained to them many times about the way he treats you?

7. Does your partner usually insist on getting her own way? Does she want to be the one to decide where you will go, what you will do, and with whom you will do it?

8. Does your partner punish you by pouting, by withdrawing from you, by giving you the silent treatment, or by withholding affection or sex if you don't do things his way?

9. Does your partner frequently threaten to end the relationship if you don't do things her way?

10. Does your partner constantly accuse you of flirting or of having affairs even though it isn't true?

11. Does your partner feel he or she is always right?

12. Does your partner seem impossible to please? Does she constantly complain to you about some aspect of your personality, your looks, or the way you choose to run your life?

13. Does your partner frequently put you down or make fun of your in front of others?

14. Does your partner blame you for his or her problems? For example, does he claim it is your fault he flies off the handle and starts screaming? Does he tell you he wouldn't do it if you didn't make him so mad? Are you to blame for her problems with compulsive overeating? Because she has a drinking problem? Does he blame you for not being able to finish college or fulfill his dream of becoming an actor (author, musician, singer, etc)?

15. Does your partner feel you are the one who is responsible for all the problems in the relationship?

16. Does your partner's personality seem to go through radical changes? Is she pleasant one minute only to be furious the next? Does he become enraged with only the slightest provocation? Does she experience periods of extreme elation followed by periods of severe depression? Does his personality seem to change when he drinks alcohol?

17. Does your partner tease you, make fun of you or use sarcasm as a way to put you down or degrade you? When you complain, does he tell you it was a joke and that you are too sensitive or don't have a sense of humor?

18. Is your partner unable to laugh at herself? Is she extremely sensitive when it comes to others making fun of her or making any kind of comment that seems to show a lack of respect?

19. Does your partner find it difficult or impossible to apologize or admit when he is wrong? Does she make excuses for her behavior or tend to blame others for her mistakes?

20. Does your partner constantly pressure you for sex or try to persuade you to engage in sexual acts that you find disgusting? Has he ever threatened to find someone else who will have sex with him or who will engage in the activities he is interested in?

If you answered half or more of these questions with a yes, you are definitely being aemotionally abused. But a yes answer to even a few of the above questions can also indicate emotional abuse.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Arendt said:


> You are going to go through a roller coaster of emotions. Buckle up. It is a tough ride. You are on the right track though it seems.


Yeah 
I'm realizing this. 

I felt like my 1st D was easier in a way, because it was cheating. It made more sense to break it.

This is all chaos and confusion in my head.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

Bad things happen to good people sadly. It's really hard but the only way is to try to keep accepting the reality of their personality disorder. 

And expecting that we will have frequent 'melt downs' along the way. Mixed with good days and so-so days.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Hi Struggle,

I whizzed through what seemed to be your key threads. One thing you wrote jumped out:



> I feel like my X's were attracted to me physically, but once they got to know me after a couple years they didn't like me anymore. So now I feel like maybe I'm not a likable person. I want the truth about me.


I assume that this is often a problem for attractive women. Men chase because looks attract but you want to be loved for the inner you, and who doesn't. This uncertainty may be the reason that you have not set boundaries. Now you are wondering if you had know better that to be a business partner with stxh2, you could have saved your marriage and made him actually live up to his own promises?

Perhaps and perhaps not. One thing is certain. You will keep work separate, unless you are involved with a leader who can show you that it is going to work. You will not leap in blind faith and that is growth.

Was/is your ex a narcissist loser? He had good qualities in the beginning. Hard to think it was all an illusion. At any rate he did not manage to make the business work and collectively you squandered your energy into it. That killed your sex life. Women don't want to have sex when things are not going well. Self genes whisper.

Men want to have sex even when everything is going to hell. Did you see that movie about the guy had to cut is own arm off. There were articles about him jerking off while facing death or at least thinking about it. How many women would be in the mood to rub one out in that situation?

Your relationship with you mother is a key thing to resolve in IC. Read the victim triangle.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Struggle,

You're on the right path now.

The answers lie within.

We all have pos tendencies that we reveal to our intimate partners, usually without us even noticing.

Really examining those - and self-regulating them - is the key to an exit strategy to this chapter of your life.

So, get to work and do it.

Remember that it will hurt to admit these things to yourself, but relief lies on the other side.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback LW.



LongWalk said:


> Now you are wondering if you had know better that to be a business partner with stxh2, you could have saved your marriage and made him actually live up to his own promises?
> 
> Perhaps and perhaps not. One thing is certain. You will keep work separate, unless you are involved with a leader who can show you that it is going to work. You will not leap in blind faith and that is growth.


First, I think about this all....the....time.... what if. What if I had done this....that. What if, before we had moved into the bigger apartment, I had made the decision instead of letting him make it. What if I had just stayed out of it, instead of trying to be helpful because I knew I had skills that could help the business (although if I think about it he probably would've put pressure on me to help him, as a duty as a wife). I certaintly did not expect him to let me take over everything just so he could do the 'fun stuff'. Maybe....maybe it would've worked out differently. Maybe it would've worked out the same but under certain circumstances. Maybe it hastened the inevitable. He's truly a narcissist, and I'm truly stubborn, so one of us would've broken down eventually.

His sister was telling me...."you need to make him work....you need to tell him to get a job....girl I wouldn't put up with that....I wouldn't put up with that with my H....." and I heard her, but I know how he feels about his sister's personality. "She's crazy....good thing she's with her H because I would never put up with someone like her." I could not apply her tactics to my XH. 

He is a true procrastinator, and he waited until everything was dead and gone, metaphorically speaking, before he actually went and got employment. I even felt bad that he had to, because then he would consistantly complain about how much he disliked his job.

My blind faith was in the fact that his goal was actually to take care of us as a family, when he in fact just wanted to do something he liked without putting a lot of work into it. But everything in our marriage going bad was my fault, because I was the one getting upset, because he was taking advantage of me and wouldn't do anything to make it better. He was always a victim.




LongWalk said:


> Was/is your ex a narcissist loser? He had good qualities in the beginning. Hard to think it was all an illusion..


Ok this the second time I've heard someone in a bit of disbelief that someone could introduce themselves as a good/nice/fun/caring person, only to show their true selves later. I believe it was Pictureless that said something like that. So let me clear the air.

A narcissist creates an illusion of themselves based off what they perceive themselves to be:

"
Here is an exerpt from Basics of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)

What does the false self look like in action?

Narcissistic people will do whatever they can to ensure people see them as they see themselves i.e. special. Some focus on materialistic things ensuring they are seen in the best clothes at the right places and driving new or expensive cars etc. even if they can't afford to live that way. Some Narcissists in particular will focus on the perfection of their bodies.They will want to impress others with stories of their accomplishments; new jobs, wage rises, expensive holidays, their sexual conquests etc. (Sometimes it may be apparent that these accomplishments are not as substantial as they have been made out to be or are not attributable to their own efforts. Lies and distortions of the truth are not unusual from the lips of a Narcissist.)

On a personal interaction level they may offer to put themselves out to help you in your work, treat you like a Princess/Prince, taking you out and buying you gifts, complimenting you, making seemingly creative one off gestures to show they care or have thought about what you would like, treating you as a valued friend, spending lots of time with you etc. They make you feel special and at this point you are special to them, not for who you are but because they see you as an extension of themselves. This view of you is known as "Inflation". (On the part of the Narcissist all these lovely gestures are usually undertaken on a shallow level and if you are emotionally invested it is unlikely that you are going to notice until it's too late - even if they have given you good warning that they're not always this nice).

Narcissistic people do not make these gestures selflessly; they behave this way to feel good about themselves which is accomplished through how you feel about them. The positive feelings (and at times negative ones) that they are in essence trying to extract from you are a bid to confirm that they are important or special. These feelings they extract from you are known as narcissistic supplies. A source of these narcissistic supplies is what Vaknin has termed a "Narcissistic Supply Source" (NSS).

The Narcissist doesn't have the emotional reserves to pull off this façade indefinitely - it is hard work.

"

Example of STBXH2:

-He was very very fit, six pack/biceps..the whole 9 yards. He enjoyed talking about his flat belly. I took this at first as he was proud of his accomplishment of fitness. In the end I realized he talked about it a lot because it made him feel good about himself and his view of physical perfection (which is why he never made me feel secure in my body, because I was not perfect)

-He likes to say how nice of a person he is. He is a nice guy. "I'm a piece of sugar......until you give me attitude"

-Everything that's mine is yours was one of the first things he said to me when our relationship took off. Here's the catch....everything that's yours should also be his, but he doesn't stop taking or expecting

-"I'm always hooking you up" .... "I got you, don't worry" were some of his favorite catch-phrases

-Presentation is everything. If I brought him dinner, and I forgot the napkin. He would make a negative comment. He would tell me how important it is to show affection in the 'little things'

Y'all have to understand that it is a GRADUAL breakdown. It doesn't come all at once. It starts off as a...."you can do this to please me.... you can do that to make me happy....." Of course you do those things, because they seems small, and I figured he must want to please me too. But then these things become an expectation....and a duty......If you don't do them you're given negative reinforcement......And eventually your twisting yourself inside out trying to make them happy when YOU'RE not. They keep taking. Then when you finally had enough....what's YOUR problem?? Why do you have attitude? Why are you ruining my mood? I'm ok....so why aren't you? With that comes emotional abuse, which is guilt-tripping, withholding affection, threatening to leave etc etc. 

So YES, he was amazing in the beginning. I thought he was everything he said he was. Maybe if our lives had stayed the same from the beginning of the relationship we would still be ok. But life changed, and in a narcissists world....they have to be the ones that stay happy




LongWalk said:


> At any rate he did not manage to make the business work and collectively you squandered your energy into it. That killed your sex life. Women don't want to have sex when things are not going well. Self genes whisper.


Ain't that the truth


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Struggle,
> 
> You're on the right path now.
> 
> ...



I wish I could think of some of my POS tendencies so I could recognize them..... I just don't trust my STBXH2's opinion of me. 

I've been telling my therapist what he's said, but she identified most of it with emotional abuse.....


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## Pictureless (May 21, 2013)

Maybe you wanted to believe that an immigrant with limited skills was going to become successful enough in his business to afford you the lifestyle you wanted.

Just as I wanted to believe that a serial divorcer was suitable for marriage. 

Love blinds and distorts your vision.

When you realized you married a man who couldn't communicate effectively with customers you resented it. That barrier to building a successful business was there but you didn't see it.

Just as I chose to ignore her selfishness. Until the resentment spilled over.

Sure, we have our stuff too, but our spouses didn't magically morph overnight into new creatures. It's us too.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Pictureless said:


> Maybe you wanted to believe that an immigrant with limited skills was going to become successful enough in his business to afford you the lifestyle you wanted.
> 
> Just as I wanted to believe that a serial divorcer was suitable for marriage.
> 
> ...



I agree...that we both morphed into something different. That's what happens in emotionally abusive relationships. Emotional abuse breeds resentment which breeds hostility

I just watched Eat, Pray, Love last night again and although I could quote all kinds of words from that movie/book....I feel very close to her words:

“I was suffering the easily foreseeable consequences. Addiction is the hallmark of every infatuation-based love story. It all begins when the object of your adoration bestows upon you a heady, hallucinogenic dose of something you never dared to admit you wanted-an emotional speedball, perhaps, of thunderous love and roiling excitement. Soon you start craving that intense attention, with a hungry obsession of any junkie. When the drug is witheld, you promptly turn sick, crazy, and depleted (not to mention resentful of the dealer who encouraged this addiction in the first place but now refuses to pony up the good stuff anymore-- despite the fact that you know he has it hidden somewhere, goddamn it, because he used to give it to you for free). Next stage finds you skinny and shaking in a corner, certain only that you would sell your soul or rob your neighbors just to have 'that thing' even one more time. Meanwhile, the object of your adoration has now become repulsed by you. He looks at you like you're someone he's never met before, much less someone he once loved with high passion. The irony is,you can hardly blame him. I mean, check yourself out. You're a pathetic mess,unrecognizable even to your own eyes. So that's it. You have now reached infatuation's final destination-- the complete and merciless devaluation of self."

“I have a history of making decisions very quickly about men. I have always fallen in love fast and without measuring risks. I have a tendency not only to see the best in everyone, but to assume that everyone is emotionally capable of reaching his highest potential. I have fallen in love more times than I care to count with the highest potential of a man, rather than with the man himself, and I have hung on to the relationship for a long time (sometimes far too long) waiting for the man to ascend to his own greatness. Many times in romance I have been a victim of my own optimism.”

I could've cared less in the beginning that he couldn't run a business, that wasn't the basis of our relationship. The business was something he pursued, something he said HE wanted about 6 months after we were married. It turned into resentment when his dream became a huge burden on our marriage, and our other goals in life.... But yeah I can see where I was hoping he would succeed and he ended up being a huge disappointment. So I understand what you mean. I was hoping he would be something he's not.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

struggle said:


> I wish I could think of some of my POS tendencies so I could recognize them..... I just don't trust my STBXH2's opinion of me.
> 
> I've been telling my therapist what he's said, but she identified most of it with emotional abuse.....


That's not how you get to it.

It helps to work through your parts.


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## Pictureless (May 21, 2013)

Struggle,

It's our stuff that we can fix. 

Like my pastor said to me, why did I get involved with such an unstable person? 

Know what I mean?

I admit though that I'm the wrong person to talk to about Eat, Love, Pray. I think it's a horrible movie that encourages divorce. Sorry


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## stallion1 (Mar 12, 2014)

Pictureless said:


> Struggle,
> 
> It's our stuff that we can fix.
> 
> ...


is it somehow we fall for the idea instead of reality? 

if this happens is it usually a type of person it happens to like the mr. or mrs. nice guy!

Struggle, I feel I relate to you a lot. Are you a part of the business, legally, or were you just supportive?


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## Pictureless (May 21, 2013)

stallion1 said:


> is it somehow we fall for the idea instead of reality?
> 
> if this happens is it usually a type of person it happens to like the mr. or mrs. nice guy!


For me I'm not sure yet, but looking back I see:

I either ignored or didn't see many red flags

I ignored the advice of others who tried to warn me

Call it what you want: blue pill, beta Nice Guy, codependent...whatever. I've definitely learned from this. The biggest lesson: I can live without being in a relationship. 

My needs, wants and desires are just as important as my partners. I'll never put my life, goals and plans on long term hold again for another person.

That doesn't mean I become selfish, but it means making and keeping healthy boundaries.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

stallion1 said:


> is it somehow we fall for the idea instead of reality?
> 
> if this happens is it usually a type of person it happens to like the mr. or mrs. nice guy!
> 
> Struggle, I feel I relate to you a lot. Are you a part of the business, legally, or were you just supportive?


Hi stallion- so glad I'm not alone 

I was legally part of the business. We closed it at the end of the year because he didn't want to run it by himself. (Aka he couldn't, because we all know who was getting things done), and i sure as heck couldn't wait to be hands off of it

For sure, I think a part of it is we fall in love with the idea. The idea of things staying as they are in the first year or so of a relationship. The idea of who the persons SAYS they are, or who they could potentially become, the idea that they think like ourselves in values and love, instead of taking into account who they really are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Pictureless said:


> My needs, wants and desires are just as important as my partners. I'll never put my life, goals and plans on long term hold again for another person.
> 
> That doesn't mean I become selfish, but it means making and keeping healthy boundaries.


^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^ Is what I'm working towards. To not feel guilty putting myself first

I'm also am ignorer of opinions, for reasons I'm starting to discover through IC
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Ok so I've been without internet at my place for almost two weeks now. This is a special kind of torture. Yes I paid my bill, it's not my fault lol
So I'm stuck on my phone here....

My IC gave me a small bit of reading this week. It concentrates on children raised by narcissists and how they develop their state of minds and habits. I was going crazy starring and cliff-noting my emotional abuse sheets, but this one I was much more selective. These are the examples I felt applied to me:

--Others fearing to try their wings are content to show early promise and to live with the belief that they could be great (and win their parents' love) if they ever applied themselves, which they dare not do. They might have a great natural tennis swing but they will never practice. The fantasy of approval for what they might do is preferable to the reality of possible rejection for what they can do.

Emotional abuse also can cause lack of motivation. So in my case I do feel like I have a tendency to have a fantasy of approval/success/going for my dreams but lack the courage and motivation to achieve. I remember my ideas and opinions often being met with negativity 

--They are affected when they need not be, believing that people are deliberately out to hurt them. Life can be quite unbearable, as they always find themselves the targets of others bad moments. Repeatedly attacked by the narcissistic parent, they have come to believe they were to blame for his or her moods

This is something STBXH2 pointed out to me a lot. The problem being that being that he is not a good opinion of my sensitivity because he was emotionally abuse and passive aggressive, so my "not taking a joke" was his way of getting away with it. So I really started to believe I was too sensitive, and I couldn't take criticism. So I'm not positive yet if this applies to me

--Having learned to accept without question the opinions of the narcissistic parent, the child often transfers this onto the world in the form of a pervasive or specific-to-certain situations gullibility. She can be manipulated by someone who speaks with authority even if the supporting evidence is lacking

Yes!! This was me. I couldn't have said it better. 

--Her choice of friends will tend toward the narcissistic, people who demand uncritical acceptance........She is in the grip of a compulsion psychologists call transference, still trying to win the narcissists love

True in my friendship choice as a child......and two marriages :/

--She does not know how to protect her interests since she was called selfish by her parents if she put her needs in front of theirs. Loving meant total selflessness, giving the loved one whatever he or she wanted without resentment, competitiveness, or jealousy, even if giving harmed the giver. She was to make the other person happy. Children of narcissists can be a remarkably unselfish breed

Yes and yes


I accept what I feel I deserve. And I must unconsciously feel like I deserve the way I've been treated in my marriages. So taking what pictureless said above as well, I feel like there's a good lesson here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stallion1 (Mar 12, 2014)

struggle said:


> ^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^ Is what I'm working towards. To not feel guilty putting myself first
> 
> I'm also am ignorer of opinions, for reasons I'm starting to discover through IC
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So I had my own dreams. I put those on hold to build the new dream...my wifes dream. I did this for her. To make her happy. to help her believe there is a better life and we could do anything together. With my contacts and business experience I got this done. I wont say I didn't see it as my benefit as well or "our" benefit!

then I started to go back to do what I wanted for me. To put myself and my needs first while she got to run the business she wanted so bad. (that I made possible) I was made to feel like a horrible person for this. and I accepted it!

seems so hard to get out of the quick sand that you've jumped into over and over again for such a long time.

"to not feel guilty putting myself first"...........sounds good, sounds easy enough! Not so. I know its the right thing to do but when you are a lefty all your life and try to change it to the "right" way........its going to take awhile, but at least we are working toward change in the positive direction!

no one can take that away but yourself. Its our own responsibility to better ourselves.

Struggle, you seem like you have a good heart and your head on straight! Keep making progress for you. Enjoy the spoils for you becoming a better you because its what you want for you!

then we can share ourselves with those who deserve it!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

struggle said:


> Ok so I've been without internet at my place for almost two weeks now. This is a special kind of torture. Yes I paid my bill, it's not my fault lol
> So I'm stuck on my phone here....
> 
> My IC gave me a small bit of reading this week. It concentrates on children raised by narcissists and how they develop their state of minds and habits. I was going crazy starring and cliff-noting my emotional abuse sheets, but this one I was much more selective. These are the examples I felt applied to me:
> ...


Do your relationships look like this?

An Overview of the Drama Triangle


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Do your relationships look like this?
> 
> An Overview of the Drama Triangle


I def see some SGR influencing me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

struggle said:


> I def see some SGR influencing me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The road you are now on will take you back to the very first time you had the urge to rescue.

What was the situation... and how old were you?

What did you hope to gain by rescuing?


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Conrad said:


> The road you are now on will take you back to the very first time you had the urge to rescue.
> 
> What was the situation... and how old were you?
> 
> What did you hope to gain by rescuing?


My 1XH....18-19 years old
I think I felt like I needed to rescue him because his home life with his mom and stepdad was so dysfunctional and crazy, I felt like I could be the normal person in his life. 
I should've dumped him the first year, but I also had a fear of losing him and letting go
What was I hoping to gain.....a loyal husband? Because I was there through it all I was thinking he would see how invaluable I am
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

struggle said:


> My 1XH....18-19 years old
> I think I felt like I needed to rescue him because his home life with his mom and stepdad was so dysfunctional and crazy, I felt like I could be the normal person in his life.
> I should've dumped him the first year, but I also had a fear of losing him and letting go
> What was I hoping to gain.....a loyal husband? Because I was there through it all I was thinking he would see how invaluable I am
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What was it like when you lived with your parents?


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

stallion1 said:


> So I had my own dreams. I put those on hold to build the new dream...my wifes dream. I did this for her. To make her happy. to help her believe there is a better life and we could do anything together. With my contacts and business experience I got this done. I wont say I didn't see it as my benefit as well or "our" benefit!
> 
> then I started to go back to do what I wanted for me. To put myself and my needs first while she got to run the business she wanted so bad. (that I made possible) I was made to feel like a horrible person for this. and I accepted it!
> 
> ...


Oh yeah...we accept the guilt for sure!! 
It is easier said than done! True!
But I'm determined to make the change in me! I've got two very big lessons to learn from in the form of XHs. They taught me about myself, if nothing else

No more putting ourselves on hold....let's keep it moving 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Conrad said:


> What was it like when you lived with your parents?


At the 16-19 age it was a hot mess. I was rebelling against their oppressive natures, but at the same time seeking their love, attention, and approval. Basically a cycle of negative behavior met with more oppression which met with more rebellion. If you're asking about living with them during that time period.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stallion1 (Mar 12, 2014)

struggle said:


> My 1XH....18-19 years old
> I think I felt like I needed to rescue him because his home life with his mom and stepdad was so dysfunctional and crazy, I felt like I could be the normal person in his life. I should've dumped him the first year, but I also had a fear of losing him and letting go
> What was I hoping to gain.....a loyal husband? Because I was there through it all I was thinking he would see how invaluable I am
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


wow, hits home! So its not just me! thought i was going to be the hero!


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

stallion1 said:


> wow, hits home! So its not just me! thought i was going to be the hero!


Everyone that knew him saw me as a 'hero.' After we split people were saying things like "He's not going to find better than you." Because they knew how he grew up and he had his own emotional issues
But it was over...cheated after we got married. He insisted the whole "it's me and not you......I need to find myself..." Funny thing....he didn't want to be saved. Maybe he just wanted a ticket out, and I was his ride
So nope, it's not just you! Hero on her white horse horse here....like She-rah
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

struggle said:


> At the 16-19 age it was a hot mess. I was rebelling against their oppressive natures, but at the same time seeking their love, attention, and approval. Basically a cycle of negative behavior met with more oppression which met with more rebellion. If you're asking about living with them during that time period.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would imagine their "oppressive nature" wasn't limited to just the years when you were 16 to 19.

Anything stand out earlier in life?

Formative experiences?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Messed up parents results in messed up kids who may or may not straighten things out when they become adults. Struggle, you are young enough to change things. Maybe it's never too late for anyone, but certain parts of live, having children, need to happen earlier rather than at the last minute before midnight.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Conrad said:


> I would imagine their "oppressive nature" wasn't limited to just the years when you were 16 to 19.
> 
> Anything stand out earlier in life?
> 
> Formative experiences?


My mom is a very controlling person. My dad is a follower. 
I feel like he gave in to my mom's behavior so he could live a semi-sane life while still in the household. I don't think he wanted to split up from his family, and 4 kids. 

When you're on my mom's bad side, it's not fun. She manipulates and she guilt trips. She can be just plain mean. She can criticize something you like as meanly as she wants, but if you criticize her stuff be prepared. But when you're on her good side everything is beautiful. I just remember how mad my mom would get sometimes....she'd smack my dad in the arm and he would smack her back in the arm harder. I recall that happening only handful of times, but I remember. 

I mimicked her behavior for a long time growing up. Especially to my siblings. I could be mean, would get mad if people didn't do what I wanted them to do, I would hit, I was angry. I was on a hair trigger it seemed. As my IC has told me...underneath anger is hurt and pain. So one of the things I'm coming to terms with is that even though my siblings sometimes got the worst of me, it was what I knew and where my emotions were. I mellowed once I moved out, and progressively got better since, and now I know I'm a different person...I just have to forgive the old me. Because I DO feel guilty about my behavior (ahhh...good old guilt).

My parents are not affectionate people...we weren't rich, but she got in major debt with her spending by buying us things like toys. She also spent her money on important things like ballet classes and piano lessons, but I think buying stuff was her way of showing affection. 

I am big on physical affection. Hugs, cuddles and kisses, I'll take it all. I think I'm the only one in my immediate family like this. As far as I can tell none of my siblings are affectionate. At all. They are all ok without physical affection. I never realized how much I enjoy physical affection until I was out of the house, it was just normal to not have that connection. I had an amazing great uncle that I would see maybe once or twice a year, who would hug me and hold me for what felt like forever...I remember how weird I thought it was how much he liked to hug. It wasn't normal. But I liked it, I was always happy to see him...unless I had toys to play with but he was holding me captive on his lap lol. He was a very sweet guy

Just a few months ago when I visited my parents, I gave my dad a big hug...and I held it....and he got all uncomfortable. He made a face at my mom like..."OK........" I made a joke out of it because he then gave me the "friend pat" on the back, but it was shocking how uncomfortable I made him.

My mom's behavior got worse when she started going to church and became right wing. It gave her a position to feel above everyone. Everyone was doing something wrong if they weren't doing what she thought they should be doing, this extended out to the rest of our family. It's caused an even bigger rift. She pushed for my sister and I to get married, as we were living in sin. I ignored her for like 3 years, until I finally got married....and got cheated on less than a year later. I know she put a LOT of pressure on my younger sister and her bf at the time. She was poo-poo'd with me after a time because I was the rebellious one.

Immediate examples in my head there. I think my parents gave us what they could. They were young parents to start (16/18), and I think my mom should've gone to IC a looooong time ago, because the emotional and physical abuse she suffered growing up just messed her up. She would tell us kids a lot about how she suffered with her parents and brother...and how she didn't want to repeat the cycle with her kids. Also as a kind of "see we're not so bad...look what I had to go through growing up." But, I feel like she did repeat the cycle with us because she never got help....and my dad was not strong enough to tell her to get help or he was out.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Messed up parents results in messed up kids who may or may not straighten things out when they become adults. Struggle, you are young enough to change things. Maybe it's never too late for anyone, but certain parts of live, having children, need to happen earlier rather than at the last minute before midnight.


I'm young enough to get my emotional self in order.....true. But having kids has never been at the top of my agenda. I've been looking for true love....... fail!!
*crash* *boom* *splat*

Neither of my XH's have emulated "I'd be a great dad" to me. Maybe that needs to be part of my criteria from now on......


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

struggle said:


> I'm young enough to get my emotional self in order.....true. But having kids has never been at the top of my agenda. I've been looking for true love....... fail!!
> *crash* *boom* *splat*
> 
> Neither of my XH's have emulated "I'd be a great dad" to me. Maybe that needs to be part of my criteria from now on......


A good father is an important quality.

But, we're getting way ahead of ourselves here.

Sort you out first.

Then look to others.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Struggle,

If you were advising a friend and she told a story about her family of origin like the one you've outlined above, what would you tell her?


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

No contact......We are apparently 180-ing each other LOL. I cannot imagine STBXH going this long without any a$$...I would be very very surprised. Preparing myself for the inevitable

Focused on the positives this week and that's made a big difference in my emotional state. So I've started the piano again, I've planted my first flower pots and I'm looking forward to my bday trip to Cali. 

IC asked me if it bothers me that STBXH doesn't care. I couldn't answer the question. I wanted to say no, but how can I not feel a little something when I think about someone I loved and cared about so much just not caring anymore. I've accepted it, but at the same time it bothers me. I think part of my confusion is that he says one thing then does another. 

I feel like I'm almost through the worst part of moat I needed to swim to get to my "castle". Cutting off communication was the best thing I did. 
I'm looking forward to more healing and my life just being all about me for awhile
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Excuse me while I try to find my heart somewhere by feet..... 

Had a taxes text-talk with X. I said something about us 'getting the last of this stuff in order for the next step.' 

He then asks....what would be the next step?

I told him, I would assume divorce papers?

Long silence..... then the big answer...... "K"

WTF does he expect? Him standing me up and ignoring me during our 'lets work this out' phase, no contact for almost two months, he wants to meet to get my name off his bank account....he has never contacted the MC (whose name and number I gave to him). 

What else would the next step be?? He just had to wait for me to say it I suppose......

First time I've ever ever mentioned divorce papers to him. When I actually said it...that's when my heart fell..... ouch. 
I wasn't expecting the hurt I have right now, I've been contemplating D....but saying it to him was a different level of hurt, for me I guess.

I asked, were you expecting something different?

His response: Yes I was. But we will do whatever is best for us. Don't you worry. 

.........

Says one thing and does another....says one thing and does another.....just remember that struggle before you get all heartbroken over his words


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Had a good talk with a girlfriend last night. As she so adviced:


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Breaking the no-inperson-contact either today or tomorrow. STBX wants my name off his bank account. 

It's been a little over a month since I've seen him, and it seems like 3 months. 

Considering STBX's viewpoints are unpredictable, I have no idea what he's going to say. But since I brought up the D in the last text message convo, I figure it will be somewhere in that arena.

I talked with IC a lot about this. She asked me if it's what I want. I felt everything saying yes it is, but it was hard to say the word. I told her how confused I was with his his comment. That he WAS expecting something different than divorce. It was the strangest comment ever considering his behavior. We are living two completely separate lives. In conclusion, it seems to be a string-a-long tactic. 

Considering his N personality, they have the self-esteem of a 6 year old. She told me when I meet him to talk to him like I'm speaking to a 6 year old, with the expectation of him understanding me like a 6 year old. Because what happens is....when I treat him like an adult he doesn't 'get it', or gets insulted, and I start to get frustrated. And when I start to get frustrated he feels good because he still 'has me'. It lets him know he still affects me.

He text me this morning using a pet-name he used to call me. I don't remember the last time he's called me that. 

The bottom line is that I'm the one that has to get my emotions under control. I can blame him all day for his behavior, for him using reel-in tactics, his emotional manipulations, but in he end it's about how I react and think. I cannot keep being a victim, I need to take control.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You don't think he can change, do you?

Staying NC is necessary because the positive associations you have with the person you thought he was were real emotions. But he is not that person, so returning to him sets you up for a fall every time.

Hope you have a nice Easter Sunday.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

He made it painfully obvious.......again.......that he hasn't/won't/cannot change on Saturday. 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...ation/185481-pic-another-woman-his-phone.html

I don't know why he keeps suprising me with his behavior. But I can say I sure as heck didn't see that situation coming. That's true I am setting myself up for the fall everytime.

I think I surprised him with the new things I said on Saturday. Even though I fed his ego by giving a crap about a picture on his phone, he did use his usual tactics to back me down. He uses chaos, confusion, reversal, guilt, and blame until I would be so dizzy I didn't know why I was mad in the first place now I'm just more pissed because (come to find out) there's never any validation for my feelings or POV. He made his obsession with being in control of everything so obvious....the NC and IC has done me at least some good. He wants to control how I feel, how I react, how I act, what I want, what he 'allows' me to see from him, what I get from him, etc. He even stated that it was mistake to have NC for so long (because I think he realized it didn't have the affect he hoped, instead of breaking me down I've actually pulled away). Now he's trying to break NC by texting me nice things and using pet names again. I'm keeping it short and un-emotional.

I know the time is coming I'm going to have to go through with filing the D. I'm just not looking forward to it. As weird as that sounds considering all I've been through. My first D was so much easier....it's a much easier decision to D a cheating loser. This is way way way worse. It's an emotional hell.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

Every time you return a text it sets you back 10 steps.

Especially when they are hovering (being nice to suck you in).


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

IC is definitely giving me the tools I need to deal with my situation. Although I didn't handle Saturday perfectly, I'm proud that I was able to stand up for myself.

I'm amazed at the things I tell my IC and she points out N behaviors of my STBX that I don't even notice. 

When we discussed what happened on Sat, my counselor believes that he cares about what outside people think (like the bank manager) because of his fragile self-esteem (typical of an N) which goes with wanting to portray himself to others as perfect and the "good guy". He has a big complex with always wanting to be the good guy. I never understood why he gave a crap about what people think (we're talking outside of reason). Why he would "hush" me all the time in conversations if he thought someone else could hear. Eventually it was downright enraging. She did tell me it's probably all subconscious, he doesn't realize he's doing it.

Unfortunately though, even if you tell an N he's doing something, they can't take criticism. So then it gets turned around on you. You're being mean, you don't do this right either, or you just don't "get it". Or, you get denial. Denial because they are perfect. He doesn't need counseling because he's perfect.

We talked about an example he used in our conversation about vegetarianism. I was talking about keeping individual identities in relationships. He was saying that if you're in a relationship and your SO is a vegetarian, you will become more interested in vegetarianism. You will eat more vegetarian. Now according to him, he wouldn't "care" if she became vegetarian....but he would expect that she would do her 'research' and make a decision for herself....welcome "Mr. Nice Guy." But I know differently. I know how he is. He will feed little bits of comments to her, say little things here and there to encourage her to do what he wants. And should she eventually rebel or call him out, he can throw his hands up and say, "hey, it's just an option. I'm eating like this and I feel really good" (aka it's up to YOU if you want to be on my level....the "I'm better than you" complex, which he also has).

My counselor noticed that I was angry about the situation, which is better than sad. On Sat it was 95% anger and 5% tears when I had a moment to myself. No tears since then.

We talked about why he was texting me again after Sat. She believes it's because I told him that the reason I got angry about the phone is because I care. Since he knows I care, he's fishing again. She said to be careful, there have been instances with N's when they realize their SO is going to leave them, so they reel them back in, only to leave them (so they are the ones doing the leaving). I told her that I didn't banter with him yesterday over text, so I probably hurt his ego again which is why he's ignoring me today.

There's a moment of closure coming soon. I don't know if it's going to be before my vacation on Sat or after. I have a feeling it will be after....STBXH does not know how to put anyone else besides himself as a priority, so he will text me last minute to be the good guy and wish me a fun trip.

I told her how much easier my decision would be if he would've given me his phone and I saw he was skirting around with an OW. That's probably why he wouldn't let me see it....nothing can be that easy with him. We both agree it would be really surprising, considering his personality, that he wasn't with an OW at this point.

Counselor told me she's had some pretty stubborn men of other cultures (cultures that generally don't believe in things like therapy), decide to come to counseling when the wife said MC or D. She confirmed with me again, have I done everything I can to fix the marriage? Yes. You don't have a respected family member or elder in either of your families that you can see, that can mediate the situation since he's so against counseling? No. 

Yup, I guess that's my only option. Counseling or D 

I have a feeling I already know my answer, but I'm ready for it.


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## LBHmidwest (Jan 3, 2014)

I tried to read back but what is the N?


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

LBHmidwest said:


> I tried to read back but what is the N?


Narcissist


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Let's pretend he wasn't cheating. And isn't now.

Do you understand that it is still not possible to have a healthy relationship with a disordered person? Do you understand the damage it does to* you *when you are in a relationship with a Cluster B m!ndfvck?

Cut your losses now. File for D and take control of your life.

Ask your IC to refer you to a therapist who does EMDR therapy. Get to the root of your FOO issues. Detox those traumatic childhood experiences. It will change your life.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Oh.....narcissists....so predictable.

Officially signing the D paperwork on Wednesday.

What a friggin waste of time


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## parker (Dec 2, 2012)

I'm so sorry to hear that he wouldn't work towards improving. Counseling won't work though, unless both people want the marriage to work. Sounds like he didn't want the marriage to work, because something as simple as handing over a cell phone would've made a world of difference. 

In MY experience, it wasn't a cell phone, it was a dinner receipt that I found. The amount was obviously for two dinners, not one. I asked him about it, and he got defensive immediately. He never answered my question about who he ate with, instead he just accused me of snooping.....at a receipt....that he left on our PC desk....in plain view. My counselor was all over it. 

Be strong as the signing day approaches. Remember that divorce is a PROCESS, a painful process, but it does get better once you hit the acceptance phase.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I am glad you see him for what he is. While it is sad to be burned twice in divorce, you are still young.

Don't get married without being more certain. You have the tools to be a better judge. Your IC has probably helped you see that by feeling better about yourself, you will avoid these destructive relationships.

Are you getting out and socializing?

Stay NC with your stbx. He is like Moxy's stbx. He will hang around forever if you let him.


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## struggle (May 13, 2013)

So true LongWalk, he will hang around forever if I let him. It's so surprising how much I make up in my own mind how "he is" and what he will do, before he does it. So then, I end up surprised when he does something else. Or I'm told.....he will do this.....and I'm thinking maybe he will...or not....nah, he won't he's not THAT predictable. And then BAM....he does what I was told he would do. I need to just let it be, and stop trying to predict things.

The moral of the story is, I need to worry about myself. LOL

I am going out and being social. I've made a couple new friends, and I have plans on attending as many free concerts as I can :smthumbup: My trip to Cali was awesome, I had fun and it really helped clear my mind.

We're supposed to be signing divorce papers tomorrow. He's now inviting me to go on an international trip with him for vacation. He wants to buy me a plane ticket. :scratchhead:
-I ask him, are you inviting me as a friend?
-He says, why would I consider you a friend?
-Because you don't want marriage counseling, and you told me you have the divorce paperwork
-He says, on a serious note, I need help, it took me a minute to realize it, but I need help. I have no doubt about it
-I told him to initiate his own help, and take care of his business, and I'm glad he sees this and he has to follow through and do the work. What makes you realize this now?
-I got convinced in the last couple days. After we started talking about divorce, I don't want to lose you. We have so much invested in each other. But beside the fact that I love you. I need help. I didn't see it before.

So now, he puts me through the ringer, and when I say "enough" and we play this game of chicken in filing for divorce...he's like...oh wait a minute. 

I'm not falling for this one. I love that he waits until the eleventh hour to pull this crap.


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