# HD Kinky Wife / LD Vanilla Husband ?



## ValleyForge (Jun 26, 2012)

So yeah. That's me.

I'm 25, my husband is 32. We have been married for 5 years. When we got married he seemed very open minded, liked sex several times a week, was willing to experiment. He was interested in continuing to try lots of different things, so I didn't think that that could change so completely. We also had A LOT of fights at that time. 

But for the past three years things have changed. We have a lot less fights, which is nice. But we also have a lot less sex. I am fine with getting less than I'd like. I'm fine with him needing a break for work/stress/relationship changes. 

But for three years we have had sex less than once a month. Maybe like once every two months. And that once every other month only happens after a predictable cycle of me trying to initiate and getting shot down, then me trying to just be more inviting and extra attractive and being ignored, then me starting an argument to make him at least talk about it and him ending up either giving me guilt sex or guilt silent treatment. 

I've tried to talk to him about this and explain that while our level of intimacy isn't a problem for him, it IS a problem for me. He just tries to change the subject or has a million excuses. (The house isn't clean enough, the sheets weren't washed recently enough, my showering in the morning and not the evening was a no-go) So I do those things - and it's the same story. I have tried to suggest that we connect on a non-sexual physical level, like going to the gym or hiking together. He always says that's a good idea, but never ever ever thinks that today is the day for it. 

I tried to VERY SENSITIVELY ask him if maybe his blood pressure was a problem, and maybe we could go to the doctor and see if there was a medication to help his health / desire level. He got angry and told me his desire level was just fine because he masturbated every morning in the shower. (!?!*!#?)

I know that I'm not a 10, but I'm also not a troll. I still like to wear make-up and skirts. And am VERY VERY willing and VERY VERY open-minded. And he did want to marry me after all. So this kind of consistent rejection REALLY hurts my self-esteem. 

If he is doing this because of depression / health / esteem issues, I'm prepared to do the work to fix it with him, but I just don't know how else I can approach this as every attempt I make in any way is wholly rejected. What else can I do? 

I am not going to cheat, and have no interest in doing so, but I am in desperate need of sexy fun time and feel like I'm running out of options. My needs are being disregarded to a critical point and I'm starting to notice the attractiveness of other people that I would never have noticed before. Then I start thinking how they would probably be ecstatic to have a woman of my proclivities. NOT A GOOD SIGN! CODE RED!!

I told him yesterday I was going to feed him roofies and viagra, tie him to the bed, and he would just have to live with the consequences. Half-jokingly. 

Any one have any more ideas that are actually legal?


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## NotAlwaysEasy (Jun 21, 2012)

I wish! I'm in a similar predicament.


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

If cheating or him working on your sex life aren't viable options. Then you are left with open marriage, divorce or acceptance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ValleyForge (Jun 26, 2012)

I've had daydreams about asking for an open marriage. But realistically this would probably be like dropping an atomic bomb on any piece of stability we have. I really don't think he's the type of guy that would be up for that. Like violent murder-suicide headline not up for it. 

Some kind of ultimatum is starting to sound reasonable. But what would I say? "Hey, start wanting to f*** me, or I'll find someone who does?" That's not helpful, that's just *****y and pointless. What ultimatum could I make that would actually be helpful and not just spiteful? I would do that. 

Divorce and cheating are not particularly conducive to trying to fix your marriage either. 



The roofies and viagra are starting to sound pretty reasonable to me.


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

You are in a tough spot. Maybe an ultimatum could be put as I love you, but I cant stay married to someone who is not being intimate with me. I feel rejected & it is becoming a major issue for me. i dont expect you to fix this overnight, but there has to be some real progress because I am not happy. I will work with you to do whatever it is to make you want me. But know this, we cannot continue the way we are right now. As much as I love you, I'll have to let you go if you cant come through for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Well the reality is he's not LD if he's masturbating daily...if DIY in the shower is his preference...that's HIS LOSS


The troubling thing to me is that in a post on another thread you said that you were "wishing that I had never gotten married for five years now."


This is no way to live...You're only 25 years old!!

Life is TOO SHORT...you've already burned five years (of your youth) that you can never get back...are you going to regret this marriage at the end of this year and the one after too? where does it end? 

You're a woman. A woman is meant to be an object of desire (hence...why we wear makeup, skirts, high heels etc)...so many soul-crushed rejected husbands on this forum would *kill* for a wife like you

So assuming that you don't get off on being rejected on some level (another problem entirely)....assuming that you honestly would like to be in a relationship with a husband who chased you too (that's the natural order here anyway)...and assuming you haven't left out some vital piece of this puzzle...my only question is: why on earth are you staying in this marriage? 

If you leave...and he chases you (what he should be doing anyway)...maybe you have something to salvage....if he does nothing...cut your losses...and find the fulfilling relationship that you're meant to have


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## xena74 (May 5, 2012)

Sorry to hear your having these problem at such a new marriage. Now that you know he's doing this in the shower every morning, as soon as I heard the water start up I would be jumping in there with him! Have you tried waking up before him, getting your shower done, then climb back into bed and start giving him some attention? Never met a man who didn't like to be woke up that way. lol If all else fails I would just start masterbating yourself, when you know he's home. He's bound to wonder what your doing in the bed room alone for an hour. Leave the toy out on the nightstand. When he asks about what your doing or why the toy is out, simply tell him that if he isn't going to meet your needs then you'll have to take care of it yourself. Good luck.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

Masturbating in the shower every morning? That's not LD.

If he is unwilling to work with you and has chosen to masturbate in the shower instead of spend time with his wife, you already have your answer. Are you stuck in this marriage? Do you have your own income?

If so, let him know you want to try seperation. It's funny how much a person will change when they realizes they weren't as "safe" as they thought they were. Sometimes marriage brings on this complacency and you lose that apprecation for your spouse. A catalyst like the idea of divorce, seperation, and yes, even an affair, can change everything (as long as the affair hasn't went too far).

Take the day dreams of open marriages and toss them out the window. Open marriages do not work. You'd fall for the first guy that desired you and your husband would be out the door. The open marriage you dream about is more like permission to find a replacement, imho. 

Good luck! Unfortunately, with him unwilling to change or see anything wrong, you have to open his eyes. If you are financial able to do so, or have a support system (family), do it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

ValleyForge said:


> He got angry and told me his desire level was just fine because he masturbated every morning in the shower. (!?!*!#?)


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say just because you quit fighting didn't mean his anger disappeared. He's still pissed at you for something and is punishing you by withholding the one thing you want. Sex. He likely feels controlled by you and this is the one way he can assert his manhood.

The cure is to back off. Just stop. Don't bring up sex again. Go make some friends, get a hobby, do a 180 and act like you are preparing your exit strategy. Don't tell him of this just do it. Act like you no longer care about him or sex. You aren't angry you're just done talking. Stop pursuing him and give him space. If you take sex off the table it will lose its power over you.

Be warned this strategy isn't a quick fix. Could take months depending on how well you can act. And during that time study him and try to figure out why he's so mad. Consider IC for yourself if he won't go.


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## ValleyForge (Jun 26, 2012)

Hm. A regular masturbation routine isn't very LD is it? This is true...

The idea that maybe he's somehow pissed at me in a long term way for some reason sounds the most likely. But since we get along so much better in day-to-day activities, I can't understand a guy getting past his resentments in every way except the way that will allow him to have as much sex as he wants. That seems really...self-defeating? Why wouldn't he pick something like temper tantrums over my going out shopping by myself and still leave sex on the table? Odd choice of revenge for a guy, I think?

And yes, I got married too young and am still more than young enough to pull out. I think my staying boils down to a couple of things. The first two years of our marriage I was really resentful of "the mistake I had made." I didn't say that, but you can tell when someone feels like that. He was mean to me then, but at some point I just reconciled myself to the idea that this is my life, I made my choice, and I need to get over myself and start applying myself fully to making this work. I choose to not give myself the time to "sew my wild oats," and that was my own fault, not his. I think that's helped. 

Another thing is that my husband is literally my ONLY experience with men. I didn't date anyone before I met him, and lost my virginity to him. My inexperience was probably the reason I didn't have the skills to tell him that I wanted more time to just be engaged before we got married. But this is the only guy I've ever been with, romantically or physically. I just kind of went along with it.

It just seems like people that put more time and thought into the act of getting married than I did end up with problems like these anyway, so the grass is probably not all that greener anywhere else in the long-term. May as well fix what I have instead of buying something new if that's just as easily breakable. Maybe a new guy would be more than enthusiastic to try to make me forget my own name, but would I end up in the same place in another five years? Maybe. Maybe I'd end up with an even worse problem.

I don't want to play more games to fix this, so maybe I should put the Big D on the table if he can't be compelled to want to fix things. It just seems like he'll end up resenting me for that as well and would leave me with no choice but to actually file it.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

I think others have hit the nail on the head here it seems, but just to toss in my two cents, it almost sounds like either A) You just back right off and let him figure it out, or B) you toss out some sort of ultimatum.

Considering this has been ongoing for three years as you say, I'd suggest not waiting. Three years is long enough for him to get it together and you've been quite clear that you have a need that he isn't meeting.

Now I don't usually support ultimatums, but he's clearly being (based solely on what you've said here) overly hostile to your attempts to discuss this. He's basically said "this is your problem, not mine" by spanking the monkey daily and refusing to talk to you at all. Communication is always the first method of choice, but it takes two to communicate.

As such, I'd suggest telling him (not asking him) you want a brief discussion on the subject. Then, state how you feel, how it hurts you and that you are going to have to leave (or whatever ultimatum you feel justified in taking) if things don't improve. Be sure to point out that you've tried everything you can think of and have been patient for three years on the issue and have recieved virtually zero input from him. Tell him if he prefers his hand to you, that that can be arranged.

When a spouse isn't even willing to talk to their partner about an issue of great importance to them, is that really being a spouse?


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## Vanton68 (Feb 5, 2012)

ValleyForge said:


> ...
> 
> 
> Another thing is that my husband is literally my ONLY experience with men. I didn't date anyone before I met him, and lost my virginity to him. My inexperience was probably the reason I didn't have the skills to tell him that I wanted more time to just be engaged before we got married. But this is the only guy I've ever been with, romantically or physically. I just kind of went along with it.


This doesn't have to be a bad thing (though 99% of the girls I've been with have had many partners before me). It seems as though it would be an incredibly fun thing to find out what a partner likes, hates, or loves together through much experimentation. Sadly, your situation does not allow for that. Like you said maybe it's time to put D on the table and see if it shakes things up.


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## CWM0842 (Dec 8, 2011)

I would tell him you don't see the marriage lasting with things as they are. That's what I did with my wife. Tell him he has to go to the doctor (if that's the problem- consider that he may be lying about jerking off every day so he doesn't seem unmanly) or that he or both of you need to go to counseling. All the feelings you have are pretty typical (I've certainly had them) and will not go away if things don't change. All that will happen is that you'll be less and less attracted to him due to the rejection and more tempted to look elsewhere.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

ValleyForge said:


> The first two years of our marriage I was really resentful of "the *mistake* I had made."


This is a clue. You resented marrying too young and called it a 'mistake'. He knew it and now that you're 'back' wanting to have sex he's punishing you for resenting him. 

He's essentially saying "oh so NOW you want me....well I'm not so easily gotten". Yes it's childish but it's working. He's getting through to you. He wants you to feel the way he did.

Again I'm just guessing. I've seen this before which is why I think it's a viable theory.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

A kinky HD woman... God bless you! As a reasonably healthy man let me just say I really don't understand LD men. Hopefully I never will.

I also don't understand any partner who thinks the sex can stop once they get married. Reasonable people understand that with marriage comes the expectation of sex. Your husband definitely has some sort of issue if he want's to beat off in the shower but not have wild freaky monkey sex with you. If he won't discuss it with you then tell him the only option you can see in that event is divorce. I'm probably one of the few who believes that unwillingness (not inability, different animal) but UNWILLINGNESS to engage in sex with one's spouse is sufficient grounds for divorce.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

ValleyForge said:


> If he is doing this because of depression / health / esteem issues, I'm prepared to do the work to fix it with him, but I just don't know how else I can approach this as every attempt I make in any way is wholly rejected. What else can I do?


It really could be a depression/health/esteem issue, or even a performance anxiety problem... there's a lot to eliminate and opening the door to communication is key. Even the fact that your sex drive may have changed over the years can also be a factor. All you can do is try to find the problem, if they're not willing to make an effort, then there's a real partnership issue.

btw: it's not me, I wish I was 32 again.... =)

_...to be my wife/husband, to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better – for worse, for richer – for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish - unless he or she suddenly goes all LD on me - then forget it, I'm so out of here..._


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## ValleyForge (Jun 26, 2012)

Thanks for your advice, all. I have been reading and rereading everything and I think I've come up with a game plan.

He gets back the day after tomorrow from a business thing. I'm going to take him out to dinner (where he will be cornered, unable to escape and unable to make a scene) and I'm going to have a polite but blunt conversation with him. 

I'm not going to do a time limit or an ultimatum. I'll save that for if this doesn't work. But I am going to tell him some of the phrases ya'll have suggested regarding how his sexual rejection is effecting me psychologically and I think it is necessary to address in order to make our marriage work, and that our marriage won't work without it. Then (hopefully before he starts being defensive) I'm going to ask what the REAL reason is that he doesn't want to have sex ever. If he tries to give me some line about the walls needing painted, I'll ask him directly if the problems from our prior years is causing his reaction.

I think if I can be as blunt and polite as I can and trap him in a place where he has to sit and talk to me, then that will be a good first step.

If nothing changes after a month or two of that sort of treatment, I'll come up with some kind of ultimatum involving a choice between treatment or separation. It's going to be difficult to not get shouty and mad about it for that month or two though.

One more problem: 

In the past, many of the times that I've complained/asked/talked/shouted about not getting even close to what I need intimacy-wise, somehow I end up getting accused of wanting to cheat, or leave for someone else, or actually cheating. This usually shuts me up, because it always feels like he's trying to make my desire for sex into something I should be ashamed of, and something that makes me morally compromised. It's also one of his stated deal-breakers for our marriage. I also know (and he knows) that women in my position are particularly vulnerable to that. I can never tell if he ACTUALLY thinks that I'd cheat on him, or if he's daring me to make a wrong move, or if he's just trying to bring up his deal-breaker as a sign that he wants out, or if he's thought about it himself and is feeling guilty, or if he is just trying to shut me up. 

If I have this heart-felt frank conversation with him and he ends up accusing me of being an over-sexed probable cheater, I don't know how I can handle that without either crying or driving off and leaving him stranded. Or stabbing him with a spoon.

How do you handle an accusation like that when it isn't true, and is too hurtful to be able to continue talking?


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

First of all...I like your plan....I know this isn't an easy thing to contemplate doing but this _is important_...and for his own good as much as your own...so be brave...

Regarding your second problem...okay...well my 'rational' suggestion would be to lay it all out there as thoroughly and articulately as you did in your post...I think you covered all the major possible motivations for his continually using this very hurtful dig...

(really...I'm impressed...you seem to have a good understanding of human thought and behavior...both your own and his...I always appreciate this in people ) 

So you explain why this hurts you...offer him the smorgasbord of possible motivations...and ask him to tell you where this is coming from...(granted---he might not be able to tell you...depends on how self-aware and reflective he himself is)...

Realistically though...and embracing a messier understanding of human nature...and going off the three options you mention in your quote:

_"If I have this heart-felt frank conversation with him and he ends up accusing me of being an over-sexed probable cheater, I don't know how I can handle that without either crying or driving off and leaving him stranded. Or stabbing him with a spoon._


I say there's nothing wrong with crying and letting all the hurt come out... as dramatic and messy as it may be...and saying something along the lines of 

_"it absolutely kills me when you say things like that...the only one I'm fighting for...the only one I want IS YOU...that's why we're at dinner tonight...that's why we fight about this all the time...that's why I think about this and think about you *all the time*...and how devastating it is that you've abandoned me...when you're the only person I want in this world."_


Note...I'm not trying to give you a script....I'm trying to convey a mood. 

I'm saying if you wind up crying then by gum CRY...say "yes" to the melodrama...and try to "break his heart" his little...

lol...this does not feel like a "professional/ PC" thing to suggest...maybe it plays into the "hysterical woman" gender role too much....but still... I wouldn't rule out the possibility that maybe you both need some over-wrought, dramatic catharsis...

(You wouldn't be the first couple )


But whatever happens...and bottom-line: 

The crux of this dinner hinges on _total and thorough_ emotional honesty...

that's crucial...

so...no more evasions...no more deflections...whatever happens...however messy, hurtful, or haltingly expressed each of your sentiments are... you want to end the night feeling that *both of you* have laid all your cards on the table...for better or worse...and that you can move forward with an accurate assessment of what pieces you have to work with in trying to save this marriage...

If you leave the restaurant feeling that *HE* not only *knows*..but (at least on some level...to the best of his abilities) *APPRECIATES* how this badly this hurts you...and what your intended game-plan is moving forward...

And if *YOU *no longer have to *guess* the reason/s for *HIS* lack of desire and why he cuts at you with painful accusations of wanting to cheat (should that come up)...but at last really *know* the underlying causes...then I think you can count this dinner as a very real success...

(and I'd try very hard not to leave without these end goals being reached)

*sigh*...this stuff's rough isn't it?

No question life's an adventure...and you just happen to be writing a rather dramatic chapter right now ( but then, every worthwhile life has them)...just write it/live it truthfully...and no matter what the future holds...your life and _your self_ will ultimately be better for it...that I can PROMISE...

Best of Luck!! 

(if you're so inclined...let us know how it went)

I'm rooting for you


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

ValleyForge said:


> One more problem:
> 
> In the past, many of the times that I've complained/asked/talked/shouted about not getting even close to what I need intimacy-wise, somehow I end up getting accused of wanting to cheat, or leave for someone else, or actually cheating. This usually shuts me up, because it always feels like he's trying to make my desire for sex into something I should be ashamed of, and something that makes me morally compromised. It's also one of his stated deal-breakers for our marriage. I also know (and he knows) that women in my position are particularly vulnerable to that. I can never tell if he ACTUALLY thinks that I'd cheat on him, or if he's daring me to make a wrong move, or if he's just trying to bring up his deal-breaker as a sign that he wants out, or if he's thought about it himself and is feeling guilty, or if he is just trying to shut me up.
> 
> ...


Point out to him that you are TRYING to have sex with HIM. NOT cheat. You've already had ample opportunity and have not cheated. (Thank you for coming here before you got into that kind of mess, btw.)

Okay, I'll come clean here on something that's difficult for me to reveal. I used to be paranoid about my wife cheating. I was very jealous of any men she talked to or would see. I even accused her of having an affair once. But she never did, she never wanted to. I was transferring my desire to have an affair on her. I'm not saying that this is happening here but you may want to just think outside the box a little. I tell you this because I have read that your husband is not interested in sex and most likely will accuse you of wanting to cheat because you are interested in sex. I just wonder if he's transferring to you.

That's not something you'd want to accuse him of either. That's something you'd want to check phone records about, check emails, social networking accounts, etc. And very quietly too.

Again, just saying...


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## ValleyForge (Jun 26, 2012)

IndiaInk said:


> (really...I'm impressed...you seem to have a good understanding of human thought and behavior...both your own and his...I always appreciate this in people )


Thanks so much  I'm a Public Relations major, and a former Psychological Operations Specialist for the military. 

I like your contingency ideas, and will try to memorize them before the dinner. I have only used Female Hysterics once before, but it resulted in my graduating from Airborne School, so whatever! We've just fought so many times, I'm pre-conditioned to try to not show weakness I guess. It's frustrating that what a person should do is so obvious from the outside and so baffling from the inside


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## ValleyForge (Jun 26, 2012)

sandc said:


> That's not something you'd want to accuse him of either. That's something you'd want to check phone records about, check emails, social networking accounts, etc. And very quietly too.
> 
> Again, just saying...


I kind of have. I haven't went through every single number on his phone records, but I've looked through all of his non-deleted texts, and got into his facebook account and all of the emails that I know about. In some ways I think it would almost be easier if he were cheating. Everything would make sense and it would be easy to let him go and move on. But I really really don't think that this is the case. The only weird thing I found after a week of having his computer to myself was that all of the history was deleted before he left. That's just odd, because he knows I am pro-porn and have even sent him clips, so I really wouldn't care. But my gut tells me that he's not cheating. Your perspective from the other side of this is great though. 

I'm glad I came here to talk about this too. I know I'm in a high risk category, but I really hate the stress and complexity and drama that lying involves. I NEVER want to be trapped in a double life like that.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

ValleyForge said:


> Thanks for your advice, all. I have been reading and rereading everything and I think I've come up with a game plan.
> 
> He gets back the day after tomorrow from a business thing. I'm going to take him out to dinner (where he will be *cornered*, *unable to escape and unable to make a scene*) and I'm going to have a polite but *blunt conversation *with him.
> 
> ...


Hate to be a downer but your plan isn't going to work. I bolded your strong words and I have to tell you they aren't very enticing. They won't motivate anyone to have sex with you. If you are dealing with a man in a power struggle pushing him in any way will drive him farther away. He's trying to gain control in this relationship and sex is his tool of choice. Come at this the way you are planning to and nothing will change.

He'll feel trapped and his only recourse will be to defend. You need to come at this from love. You need to figure out WHY before you make your game plan. Study him more while giving him space. If he hasn't been open as to why before now one conversation isn't going to get you the answer either. Pushing men to do anything rarely works.

Now if you want to decide today that this is a dealbreaker then fine pack your bags and leave but do not bluff. And throwing the D word around should never be done unless you are serious. I did it to my husband over lack of sex before I fully understood WHY and I regret it now. The reason he didn't want sex had NOTHING to do with anything I originally thought. 

I really wish you'd back up, take a deep breath and keep studying him before you decide the plan of action.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> As others suggested, and as I have suggested to guys in this situation, you have to tell him that a good marriage must include an intimate, fulfilling sexual component. Without it, the marriage will not last.
> 
> Tell him you want to start marriage counseling. If he doesn't want to go, go alone. It will show you are serious about dealing with this.


I am willing to bet its some issue for him other than sex.

Men seem to be more emotional about sex as they get older??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ValleyForge (Jun 26, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Hate to be a downer but your plan isn't going to work. I bolded your strong words and I have to tell you they aren't very enticing. They won't motivate anyone to have sex with you. If you are dealing with a man in a power struggle pushing him in any way will drive him farther away. He's trying to gain control in this relationship and sex is his tool of choice. Come at this the way you are planning to and nothing will change.
> 
> He'll feel trapped and his only recourse will be to defend. You need to come at this from love. You need to figure out WHY before you make your game plan. Study him more while giving him space. If he hasn't been open as to why before now one conversation isn't going to get you the answer either. Pushing men to do anything rarely works.
> 
> ...



Well I'm not going to put on a June Clever dress, hand him a cigar, and wait at his feet for him to decide if I get to be happy with my life or not. If you try to have a polite serious conversation with someone, and they can't bear it in any way, your problems are unfixable. You HAVE to be able to talk to your partner. That is not too much for me to ask. 

Yes, I use strong language, but that is the way both my husband and I are. We do not come from a cry about your feelings background. We both come from a conservative military background and our initial attraction was partly based on having similar ideas about things like guns, personal responsibility, and taking a type A approach to the problems in your life. We are having issues, but that does not make my husband a fragile and delicate flower. I respect him, but I will not walk on eggshells around him. He treats me the same way. Being direct and honest with a person is the highest form of respect. If he's changed is mind about that, then he's had a brain transplant since last week. I fully intent to be polite and sensitive to his feelings. But I will not misrepresent mine in the process. I deserve to be heard as much as he does. 

And really, it's been like this for a couple of years. They only way I could give him any more space is if we lived on separate continents. He has his own hobbies and things he likes to do away from the house. All I ask while he's out is a text once in a while to know that he hasn't crashed his motorcycle. Too much space is the problem, and I am not prepared to be further separated. That's just continuing to not deal with the problem. The time to deal with it is now. If he wants more space than he currently has, what he really wants is a divorce. I sincerely hope that is not the case. 

Also no one is "throwing the D word around." If I were willing to casually get divorced I would have been divorced 6 months into my marriage. But we are still together and have been through a lot of stressful life events. I'm just not going to take it completely off of the table if it turns out he really is checked out from putting any effort into our marriage. We both deserve to be happy. And I AM serious about that.

I love my husband. He is not a child, he is a grown man. He can handle the occasional unpleasantry like an adult should be able to. And if he loves me, he should care that I am suffering from his apathy. 

I think that some people often don't understand why something as silly as sex should even be a problem for HD people. Well it is. I cannot just move on with a celibate life and be happy. Intimacy is not a superficial want that I can live without. It is a very real need, and not having that need met affects me psychologically and emotionally in a very real way. 

Yes, his feelings deserve respect, and I intend to do that. But I am half of this marriage and I deserve some effort. That is not too much to ask. 

No more space, no more waiting. I did that. Now it is time to fix this.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Dang woman, I really like you! I really don't understand your husband. Take that hill soldier!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Okay now THAT sounded empowered. There is a difference between empowered and what you said earlier. Pushing won't work but coming at it from what YOU deserve will.

Keep that attitude and you'll do just fine. 

I wish you well. Keep us posted.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

_"Hate to be a downer but your plan isn't going to work. I bolded your strong words and I have to tell you they aren't very enticing. They won't motivate anyone to have sex with you. If you are dealing with a man in a power struggle pushing him in any way will drive him farther away. He's trying to gain control in this relationship and sex is his tool of choice. Come at this the way you are planning to and nothing will change.

He'll feel trapped and his only recourse will be to defend. You need to come at this from love. You need to figure out WHY before you make your game plan. Study him more while giving him space. If he hasn't been open as to why before now one conversation isn't going to get you the answer either. Pushing men to do anything rarely works.

Now if you want to decide today that this is a dealbreaker then fine pack your bags and leave but do not bluff. And throwing the D word around should never be done unless you are serious. I did it to my husband over lack of sex before I fully understood WHY and I regret it now. The reason he didn't want sex had NOTHING to do with anything I originally thought. 

I really wish you'd back up, take a deep breath and keep studying him before you decide the plan of action."_




Mavash, I think you make some valid points---yes...this dinner in and of itself is probably not going to leave him wanting to jump into bed...however, if it unearths the *root causes* of his lack of desire...isn't that the best place to start?


I absolutely agree with you that everything is better when one "_comes from a place of _love"...but I think "love" and "blunt, frank, and honest" are not mutually exclusive...

In fact, I think sweeping things under the rug, while resentment and tension grow...kill love more than anything else...ultimately real love requires honesty.

My guess is she has studied him...she's already guessed at where this may be coming from...but she can't really know that for sure until he "levels with her"...

Yes, no doubt he won't like feeling trapped...but what are her other options here? If she talks to him at home he shuts down and makes excuses...

I don't know...it's a delicate dance isn't it? 

In a perfect world you don't want to make people feel uncomfortable and force them confront things they'd rather ignore...but it's not a perfect world...humans are strange creatures...and if we're allowed to ignore negative feelings/behaviors...allowed to avoid addressing them...the truth is that a lot of us would go on like that forever...

So I think there are instances where even "trapping" someone...as much as they may dislike it...can come from a place of love

With the information we've been given from the OP...I think she's at that point in this relationship...


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

IndiaInk said:


> _it's a delicate dance isn't it? _


_

Yes but I think she's got it now. _


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

ValleyForge said:


> One more problem:
> 
> In the past, many of the times that I've complained/asked/talked/shouted about not getting even close to what I need intimacy-wise, somehow I end up getting accused of wanting to cheat, or leave for someone else, or actually cheating. This usually shuts me up, because it always feels like he's trying to make my desire for sex into something I should be ashamed of, and something that makes me morally compromised. It's also one of his stated deal-breakers for our marriage. I also know (and he knows) that women in my position are particularly vulnerable to that. I can never tell if he ACTUALLY thinks that I'd cheat on him, or if he's daring me to make a wrong move, or if he's just trying to bring up his deal-breaker as a sign that he wants out, or if he's thought about it himself and is feeling guilty, or if he is just trying to shut me up.
> 
> ...


Then get pre-emptive. After you've said all of your comments to him about why it's important, how it makes you feel, etc. Add in that you are not having an affair, that you don't want an affair, that's you've never considered an affair, and that the only person you can even wrap your mind around sleeping with at this moment is him. Nip it before he says it.

Personally, when a spouse says those things without proof it often means one of three things:

1) He suspects you are having an affair. he may not have proof, and he may be downright dillusional, but he does suspect it.
2). He's having an affair. I assume this is an issue you've pondered already, so unlikely in your case, but it would explain the low sex drive towards you as he is getting it elsewhere. Spouses who accuse their other spouse of cheating many times are in fact the one doing the cheating.
3). He wants to end the relationship, but not be the one that actually called it quits. This is the one I subcrisbe to in your case. Even though this issue is likely all or nearly all his fault, he may not even notice it. Maybe he just wants out of the marriage but doesn't have th guts to say so, so he just continues leading his life and avoiding you in this way. He knows it can't go on forever for you to be in a sexless marriage, but he also may not want the stigma of being the one who walked away (maybe embarrassing to his family, friends, himself, etc.) so he's pushing your buttons in an effort to get you to finally say "I'm done."

Not saying any of those three reasons is the answer, but I'd start by looking there.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Okay now THAT sounded empowered. There is a difference between empowered and what you said earlier. Pushing won't work but coming at it from what YOU deserve will.
> 
> Keep that attitude and you'll do just fine.
> 
> I wish you well. Keep us posted.


LOL...I agree Mavash..._that_ did sound empowered

I'm impressed.


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## ValleyForge (Jun 26, 2012)

You guys are sweet 

Fear and lack of conviction has really never been a problem for me 

Well he's on his way home. Hopefully I can trap him like a hubby rat tomorrow if he doesn't have to stay too late at work.


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## ValleyForge (Jun 26, 2012)

Well, we had The Talk.

Good things:

1. I think I did a very good job at talking about the problem in a pro-marriage way. I told him I had been feeling disconnected from the marriage for over a year and that I didn't want that. I told him I needed to feel wanted have hadn't felt like he even found me at all attractive for a very very long time and it was killing me emotionally and psychologically. I told him all of the reasons I knew I had a part in the blame and asked him what his were. I think he heard me and took it seriously.

2. He said he’s mildly depressed. Not sad depression, but flat emotionless depression. Also that he thinks his testosterone has dropped significantly since he’s gained weight. Also that he is having a disproportional reaction to stress things (money, house, work). At one point in our marriage he had even been on mood stabilizers to help him deal with stress, but was doing much better now even though he isn’t on them. But the stabilizers also make him feel flat, which he already feels, so I don’t think that’s an option again.
But at least he admits he has some problems. I just don't know what to do about them.

3. We talked about the very specific things we should do to get fixing on things. We’ve done this before and nothing has happened, so now that he knows I’m not happy with things maybe he’ll actually work on them with me. He even agreed to try shutting down our cable for a month so that he’s not more married to the TV than me. I’m SHOCKED he agreed to that.

Bad things:

1: He pretty much told me that he’s been tempted to have an affair. When he said that, I didn’t push the issue or question it because I really didn’t want this conversation to turn in THAT conversation. That is a Pandora’s box that I will be opening, but didn’t want to at that moment. Also I’m still working out how I feel about it. On one hand, we are both feeling disconnected and I definitely have thought about how great it would feel to just have someone really want me and really feel excited that they might get me. On the other hand, the reason I’ve been feeling like that is because HE won’t have sex with me! Here I am, at home suffering in desperate agony, willing to have ANY kind of sex with NO limitations, and he’s more interested in missionary with a random!? He even told me about some lady from his trip that he was pretty sure he could have gotten if he’d been willing. Seriously!?! It’s not the idea of my husband wanting to have sex with someone else that bothers me so much. I get that. It’s not happening at home. It’s the idea that my husband wanted to have sex with someone else while clearly NOT wanting to have sex with the person that is up for literally ANYTHING, already knows how he likes to be touched, and is at home banging her head against the wall with sexual frustration. Not to mention, is married to. That’s pretty sadistic. 

I don’t think he’s actually cheated on me. I WILL be finding out more about this. But even wanting that while not wanting me at all is pretty low. I could not have possibly been more willing or more available. WTF?!

2. I pressed him further on the “Blank Check” I had offered him. (I had offered to do literally ANYTHING sexy-time wise he could think of that he wanted to do and hadn’t done with me, guaranteed delivery, no take-backs) He CONTINUED to say that he was tired and that there wasn’t anything new he was interested in. This is VERY worrisome to me. When we got married, he was pretty much up for anything that I suggested and did it enthusiastically. His actions and words led me to believe that he liked experimental, kinky sex and would be totally open for more. Now a few normal positions with the lights off are all he’s interested in?! I feel like I bought a family-sized bag of potato chips and got it home to find out 3/4th of the bag was just air. I married him thinking we were a good sexual match. I married him thinking that he valued adventure in the bedroom as much as I did. Now apparently he doesn’t? I could not be more disappointed. This also provides a challenge for me, because I can’t handle the thought of turning off the pro-adventure part of my sex life forever. His reaction to my Blank Check really worries me. We haven’t even scratched the surface of the crazy things I want to do, and he’s already reverted back to the sexual openness of a 1950’s sitcom? This is a problem. 

Results:

He was very very nice to me for the rest of the day. He even bought me a necklace pendant, which tells me more than anything that he heard me and was worried. He hasn’t bought me an occasion-less gift in years. That he’d be worried enough to do that means more than any present ever could. I’ve heard plans from him before that were not followed though, but maybe now that he knows I am very dissatisfied, he’ll move from planning to action.

The best part was that I FINALLY got lucky! Not the disinterested 5-minute obligation that I’m used to, but actual sex that he was actually present for. Not quite the quantity I would have liked, but he’s out of practice (I assume!), so that’s fine. Another 4 sessions of that a day for the next year, and I’ll be back to normal, haha. 

Clearly further conversations need to occur. But I believe I got what I wanted out of the first one.

Also sorry this was so long. Totally understand if you didn’t make it to the end ☺ With subjects like this it’s hard to not turn it in to my personal diary.


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## CWM0842 (Dec 8, 2011)

It's ok, all message boards mostly just diaries for people. Sounds like you've made some progress. His wanting to have an affair is odd. Have you gotten out of shape? I seem to remember you saying you were in the military and in good shape. Or do you boss him around too much? I have a hard time believing he'd turn down your offer for anything.

I can sympathize with the ripped off by the seller feeling. You have a long road back to the product you thought you were getting. I have been at it for a while.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

I personally believe that "bad thing" #1 is a good thing. Not because he's feeling tempted to have an affair, but because you both got it out on the table and didn't have a melt down over it. Whatever you do, don't make him regret telling you or he won't tell you again.

Most men do not have affairs because they want sex. In your case sex is available at home, with great enthusiasm, and yet he is still thinking this way. Men have affairs because the other woman makes them feel appreciated, desired, and valuable when they (rightly or wrongly) are not getting that kind of reenforcement at home.

It is a huge mistake to think that just becuase you are offering him unconditional no strings sex at home that you are making him feel desired, valueable, and happy. The two do not necessarily equal the same thing. It's one thing to say "I'm horny and want sex." It's quite another to say, "You are a good man, a wonderful husband, and so sexy that I can't stop thinking about tearing your clothes off."

I would start by asking him as non-threateningly as you can what specifically was the attraction to the other woman (assuming he was attracted to her)? Was she flirtatious? Did she pay him compliments? What made her attractive? My guess is that he won't say "Well, she wanted sex." Probably something more alongs of "She made me feel like ..." Then see if you can't find ways to do things that make him feel the same way.

The second thing I would suggest is that you evaluate his sleep patterns. Those of us who are somewhat overweight often have sleep problems, which can lead to a sharp drop in free testosterone. In particular, if you notice that he snores a lot or has episodes in his sleep where he appears to "startle" awake or stop breathing momentarily, then apnea could be a culprit. His Dr. can order a sleep study. 

Good luck!


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

First off,

Congrats for being brave and going through with The Talk...it takes a lot to do something like that...you never know if the other person is going to say something to crush you...or if you'll end of feeling embarassed or worse-off...that's why a lot of people will live in misery for years before they finally snap...anyway I think it speaks to your character...



_"He pretty much told me that he’s been tempted to have an affair. When he said that, I didn’t push the issue or question it because I really didn’t want this conversation to turn in THAT conversation. That is a Pandora’s box that I will be opening, but didn’t want to at that moment. Also I’m still working out how I feel about it. On one hand, we are both feeling disconnected and I definitely have thought about how great it would feel to just have someone really want me and really feel excited that they might get me. On the other hand, the reason I’ve been feeling like that is because HE won’t have sex with me! Here I am, at home suffering in desperate agony, willing to have ANY kind of sex with NO limitations, and he’s more interested in missionary with a random!? He even told me about some lady from his trip that he was pretty sure he could have gotten if he’d been willing. Seriously!?! It’s not the idea of my husband wanting to have sex with someone else that bothers me so much. I get that. It’s not happening at home. It’s the idea that my husband wanted to have sex with someone else while clearly NOT wanting to have sex with the person that is up for literally ANYTHING, already knows how he likes to be touched, and is at home banging her head against the wall with sexual frustration. Not to mention, is married to. That’s pretty sadistic. "_

Well, once again, I admire that you covered all angles of your Pandora's Box. You have understanding towards his situation, while also realizing that if you dwell on this (and the seeming injustice here)... it has the capacity to make you very angry (rightfully so).

I think you're wise to leave it on the shelf right now. His honesty here was very admirable...in a sense, he respected you enough to give you the truth...and it was a telling piece of informaton...

And here we come to the heart of it...I think this boils down to ATTRACTION

I don't think we've touched on that much yet...so forgive me if this stuff is redundant and doesn't apply...

Attraction is in a lot of ways an ugly piece of human nature...because the elements that engender "desire" stem back to our animal nature...and really seem to have a lot more to do with a "power-balance" than anything else...and little to do with being an actual "TEN" or "Troll" (or something in between)...and much more to do with whether..."TEN" or "Troll" energy is being given off

At this moment which way would you say the power balance in the relationship is tipping?

How was it when you were first dating?

A women isn't going to want to sleep with a wimpy whiney husband that begs for sex...thats why you see countless threads from baffled husbands who make themselves laundry and dishes slaves all in the hope that their wives will feel desire for them....and find their advances are still repulsed...because ironically they are only making themselves LESS DESIRABLE

The Marborough Man doesn't fold laundry...

The same is true for men...if you want him to desire you...you have to lose every trace of desperation...an object of desire doesn't beg anyone, or need validation from anyone...it exudes a warm glow of perfect self-containment and contentment...and in doing so entrances and bewitches those who gaze upon it

Admittedly all of this is very MESSED up...why should a loving spouse...who only wants to love and receive love from their partner...be made to feel jilted and rejected time after time...

Why should they have to resort to *deliberate manipulation*...playing a part of the cool, nonchalant charmer...when that's not how they really feel?

That hardly seems in keeping with the spirite of "True Love"

Here we go back to that notion of attaction being part of the "animal nature" and remember that anatomically our "human-brain" (pre-frontal cortex) is quite literally built upon our "animal brain"...

The animal part of both humans (male and female) is seeking a genetic prize...something they can put on pedestal...and this manifests in desiring that person who seems (at least in some ways) better than us,...or someone we think others could desire and wrest from us...we're kept on our toes by someone we instinctivly feel could slip away...

The proverbial Catch

Yes, we're all looking for *a catch* and the implicit fundamental of the nature of a catch...is that it not all too willing to be caught.

Right now...you are trying to catch your husband...and his attraction is lowered because of it...whether he can explain it or not...oft-times this operates at a very sub-conscious level

In a perfect relationship...this happens organically...both people sense implicitly that the other is a prize...in many ways, I think that's just luck of the draw...

it has nothing to do with whether someone is actually a "Prize or Catch"...(ever had a g/f fall hopelessly in love with someone you thought was a total loser?)...it's just a perception...it doesn't necessarily have anything to with reality...so unfortunately that also means that there are many people who are total winners (YOU)...who end up being appraised at a lower than actual value by their spouse...all because this base, phony animal-driven illusion isn't being manufactured


So if you're still with me after that novel this what this all boils down to:

Moving forward make sure you don't act desperate for your husbands attention...(even if you have to fake it)...this would be a good time to pretend to _get really into_ some hobby or interest....(all while still being perfectly warm and friendly---oh, and continue being feminine (I know you said you wear skirts and makeup--GOOD)

It's a game...it's annoying...but it's an invioable law too...that must be accepted without too much analysis 

Moreover, the underlying premise of the game is true...*YOU* are a very real prize...you know what you *DESERVE*..and if your husband still refuses to see you as such...there will be THOUSANDS of men who will (this is totally true)...so believe it...and act accordingly...and he'll start to act accordingly too


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Share the bloody shower with him. He is a ungrateful little tyke!


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## Double Trouble (Jun 5, 2012)

I can totally relate to your situation. The only difference is that I am a HD Kinky Husband and she is LD Vanilla Wife. Wish I could offer some advice but I am looking for my own. Best of luck.


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## ValleyForge (Jun 26, 2012)

CWM0842 said:


> Have you gotten out of shape? I seem to remember you saying you were in the military and in good shape. Or do you boss him around too much? I have a hard time believing he'd turn down your offer for anything.


I have gained some weight. But not THAT much, and it mostly goes to my chest and hips. It hasn't changed my bust/waist/hip ratio. But I am working on it. He's gained a lot more than me, but he has eight inches and 100 lbs on me at the best of times. He's always been bigger than me and always will. So some weight gain doesn't make him less attractive to me. It sounds like it's really been affecting his self-esteem though. 



pplwatching said:


> Most men do not have affairs because they want sex. In your case sex is available at home, with great enthusiasm, and yet he is still thinking this way. Men have affairs because the other woman makes them feel appreciated, desired, and valuable when they (rightly or wrongly) are not getting that kind of reinforcement at home.
> 
> It is a huge mistake to think that just because you are offering him unconditional no strings sex at home that you are making him feel desired, valuable, and happy.


~sigh~ You are probably right. It happens sometimes that he ends up having the traditionally female feelings and I end up having the traditionally male frustration. It's just hard for me to comprehend that a MAN needs to be wined, dined, and made to feel pretty before he's willing to put out. (I know that sounds piggish, but I'm making a point about role-reversal.) The only feeling that can wreck my mood is if I'm directly angry for an immediate thing. If I don't bring drama to the bedroom, why does he have to? Everything could be so awesomely straightforward with a total lack of B.S and lots of sexy time. Men and their feelings 

I have tried to be more complimentary and appreciative since he got back though. Maybe it will help. 



IndiaInk said:


> First off,
> I think you're wise to leave it on the shelf right now. His honesty here was very admirable...in a sense, he respected you enough to give you the truth...and it was a telling piece of information...


Yes. I agree. Last night, I asked him more about what he had said. He says that nothing happened. I'm going to try to take him at his word for it. But after everything I've gone through to keep us married the last five years, divorce would be the least of his problems if he had. But I'm going to decide to just believe him, and leave it at that. We have enough provable things to be working on anyway.



IndiaInk said:


> A women isn't going to want to sleep with a wimpy whiney husband that begs for sex...that’s why you see countless threads from baffled husbands who make themselves laundry and dishes slaves all in the hope that their wives will feel desire for them....and find their advances are still repulsed...because ironically they are only making themselves LESS DESIRABLE


Firstly, I would DEFINITELY sleep with a husband that wanted to be my dish and laundry slave. The right props and costumes could make that very hot  But that’s just me.



IndiaInk said:


> The same is true for men...if you want him to desire you...you have to lose every trace of desperation...an object of desire doesn't beg anyone, or need validation from anyone...it exudes a warm glow of perfect self-containment and contentment...and in doing so entrances and bewitches those who gaze upon it
> Right now...you are trying to catch your husband...and his attraction is lowered because of it...


I do want to feel like my inner sex goddess. But when the only person who can give you that attention (because you’re monogamously married) doesn’t…I struggle to keep that part of me from looking elsewhere. It’s not nice, and I do whatever I need to in order to keep myself faithful, but it’s the truth. If I get back into my fighting shape, and “exude the warm glow of perfect self-containment” as you so eloquently say it, how many more years can I endure neglect and patiently wait for him to notice that I’m still his wife? I already know that I’m at the point where I’m extremely vulnerable to accepting the kind of attention that a married woman shouldn’t need. That’s why I’m here in the first place. I am motivated to stay faithful. But I have to be honest with myself about the point of desperation that I’m at if I’m going to address it. 

I can’t just live a celibate life anymore and act like everything’s fine. I’ve tried not even mentioning it, living every other part of my life to the fullest. No pressure, no hitting on him, no suggestive acts or clothing. You know what happened? 2 to 3 months of NOTHING. Months. 2 to 3 of them. Consecutively. Every unending night of nothing. I know that’s pretty normal for parents, but we don’t even have kids!

He obviously wants to stay married to me, or me saying I was unhappy would have lead the conversation in a very different direction. 

He must just be bored of me specifically. Odd, beings that I’M the HD Kinkster, but whatever. He wants to stay married, but he just isn’t interested any more. Any more “ignoring and delaying” on my part will result in complete marital celibacy and me eventually cheating and asking for a sudden “out of the blue” divorce. I don’t want that at all. He wants to stay married to me but he isn’t interested in me, whether I’m asking for it or not. Not sure what to do with that. The only kind of sexual fantasies he has any more are the ones that involve other women. I know because I asked extensive questions yesterday, laid out many scenarios, and that’s all that got his interest. There was nothing that just involved me and him. I don’t mind bringing in other women occasionally, but NOT IF THAT’S THE ONLY THING!!!

Half of me wants to slap him, and the other half wants to say, “Go right ahead and see how that works out for you. No, really, go do it. I won’t be waiting here alone.”

I won’t even tell you about the over-the-top sexiness that was my new outfit yesterday, and the tired, obligatory response that I got. 
Sorry that got so ranty. I guess I should be happy that he’s at least talking to me, even if nothing he does or says has been particularly hope-filled or inspiring. 

I’m just sad


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Why can't there be an HD LD test we can all take before we get married so we can match up HD men to HD women and LD men to LD women?

VF you are a dream...


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

Vanton68 said:


> If cheating or him working on your sex life aren't viable options. Then you are left with open marriage, divorce or acceptance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



OMG...really?

Counseling, sexual counseling? 

First...acceptance I never think is a good option.

Second....maybe his testosterone is a bit off...timing? You need to explore options before acceptance or being less.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

wiigirl said:


> OMG...really?
> 
> Counseling, sexual counseling?
> 
> ...


Unless you are referring to counselling just for the OP, then that won't work. As Vanton68 said, if "him working on your sex life aren't viable options."

If he's not willing to work on it, all the counselling in the world won't make a difference at all.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm not in as dire of a situation as you but it's similar. We're in sex therapy now. 
I found a book that helped me quite a bit called Intimacy and Desire. 
I would ask him if he's willing to stop wanking in the shower and see if his desire for sex comes back.
I don't buy the whole "be awesome and he will magically want you" line. After a while pursuing doesn't work but sitting around acting like you don't care doesn't either. 
We are just getting started in MC and I know it's going to be a process. I get so frustrated sometimes thinking about the man
who would kill to have an open minded, sexy, eager to please, adventurous wife who wants them. I'm to the point where I'm avoiding things like "50 shades of gray" and "magic mike" and shows about sex because what is the point in getting worked up or thinking about it and realizing he doesn't have the same passion for me anymore? 
I don't mean to hijack but want you to know you aren't alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ValleyForge (Jun 26, 2012)

Well positive developments;

I don't know if any of you guys have seen the TLC show "7 days of sex" or not. Basically it takes couple who are having issues and tries to see what therapeutic effect having sex with each other for 7 days in a row will have. I made the husband watch it and, surprise! He agreed to try it. We are about halfway through, but I think it's helping. Also I've been putting a lot of effort in to some pretty spectacular BJ's. Also we have actually been working together on finishing the room we're making in to our home gym, so I've seen effort from him on that front.

For the last part - cover your eyes and grab your petticoat if your ultra sensitive - he's agreed to go to a club in our nearest big city for my birthday. THAT kind of club. We aren't going to swing or anything (lord knows we can't handle those problems yet) but I think even thinking about being with each other in that kind of atmosphere is a good kind of something to look forward to.

Ok, you can uncover your eyes now and rejoin us.

So yeah - steps in the right direction! An agreement to get lucky every night for a week! WooHoo!! And effort toward the gym!

7 days of sex in a good experiment, of anyone else wants to get on the band wagon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

ValleyForge said:


> ~sigh~ You are probably right. It happens sometimes that he ends up having the traditionally female feelings and I end up having the traditionally male frustration. It's just hard for me to comprehend that a MAN needs to be wined, dined, and made to feel pretty before he's willing to put out. (I know that sounds piggish, but I'm making a point about role-reversal.) The only feeling that can wreck my mood is if I'm directly angry for an immediate thing. If I don't bring drama to the bedroom, why does he have to? Everything could be so awesomely straightforward with a total lack of B.S and lots of sexy time. Men and their feelings


I get a little confused around here with the HD and LD. I'm a guy and don't need a lot of sex. My wife hasn't said that seh needs more sex (frequency) but she has said straight out that she wants more variety. She's made several suggestions which include oral, restraints and anal and other stuff. 

When she made these suggestions, I wasn't sure what some of them were and had to look them up on the internet because I'd never heard of people doing these things... and they just don't turn me on at all...

So, I asked her how she came to understand that she enjoyed these things and she tells me that she explored her sexuality in college with 'casual' partner after casual partner.

Now, I'm resisting even more because I can't stand the idea of 'casual' sex. She says her motivations were to find out 'what worked' for her. That's fine, I can accept that... but I have a pretty good idea what her male partners in these casual encounters were looking for, and it wasn't 'what worked for them'. Being a guy I have a pretty good idea what they wanted... anything that moved... 

So now I'm frustrated as anything because she's asking me to participate in activities that she learned from men of very 'questionable' motivations...

The reason I'm saying all this is that maybe your hubby feels the same way, maybe your knocking him over the head with this stuff instead of trying to gently nudge?

Apparently my problem (according to her) is that I never experimented or explored and no one ever asked me what I liked or wanted... I was just so happy to be there that asking for anything else seemed inappropriate. 

Maybe? You're hitting him up with way too much over the top stuff. As it is right now, I'm having very negative feelings toward any kind of 'sexual awakening' - I don't see any validity in that kind of behavior. I'm supposed to beat myself up emotionally for months on end, and do things I don't want to do because... why? No one can give me a good answer. There isn't a 'goal' for me besides "she wants me to do x to her" and I don't find that sort of behavior suits the image of who I am...

I don't know if that helps you any... but at least it's another (LD?) mans perspective. =)


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

So now I'm frustrated as anything because she's asking me to participate in activities that she learned from men of very 'questionable' motivations...

Just curious but what difference does it make what their intentions were? This isn't about them, it's about her and her intentions were the same as theirs. Would it make you not want to have sex at all since she had sex with casual flings? Please don't think I'm arguing, I'm just in the same boat with my h and it's too hard sometimes to talk to him about it. I have had a lot of experience and he's been with two people, both long term relationships. 
Our situation is different in that we did lots of kinky stuff in the beginning and then suddenly he just wanted missionary vanilla. He knew about my past before we started sleeping together. 
I'm not saying that you should want to do those things. Just curious about the reasons. 
I can see how you would think if it ain't broke don't fix it. Why wouldn't she have brought this up earlier in your life together?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> Just curious but what difference does it make what their intentions were? This isn't about them, it's about her and her intentions were the same as theirs. Would it make you not want to have sex at all since she had sex with casual flings? Please don't think I'm arguing, I'm just in the same boat with my h and it's too hard sometimes to talk to him about it. I have had a lot of experience and he's been with two people, both long term relationships.


For one, I have a pretty low opinion of _most_ men and think she was simply used.

Sometimes... I get this feeling that these things she wants to do are 'fruit of the poisonous tree' and that she's (perhaps unknowingly) trying to corrupt me. I try to keep an open mind, but it's difficult when you find so many of her experiences distasteful.



diwali123 said:


> Our situation is different in that we did lots of kinky stuff in the beginning and then suddenly he just wanted missionary vanilla. He knew about my past before we started sleeping together.
> I'm not saying that you should want to do those things. Just curious about the reasons.
> I can see how you would think if it ain't broke don't fix it. Why wouldn't she have brought this up earlier in your life together?


We met after I had been divorced about 3 years and she was just ending hers. Her Ex was very kinky (think swinger type) and she says "I needed a break from all that, and wanted to find a 'normal' nice guy. =) (ain't that sweet?)

Why she's bringing this stuff up after 16 years is a mystery that I don't think anyone will ever figure out. But I'm trying to be the best nice guy there is, and am very willing to work through this until we're both somewhat happy. 

Honestly? I think I'm afraid. I don't want to end up 'like them' (_them_ being that user type of guy).


=)


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Can I ask if you had any religious upbringing? 
So you're afraid that if come to like certain acts too much eventually it's going to get to the point where you aren't satisfied with her and you need other people? Like you think experimenting will lead to loss of sexual control? You might end up a swinger? 

This is what I don't understand, she was using them too. I'm not trying to be argumentative but do you really think that she didn't fully consent to all of this? Does it seem like she was tricked or like she was forced or maybe drunk? If not, then it was fully her choice and she was doing what she thought was best at the time. Why turn her into a victim? 

And then I think you need her to be a victim because it's too hard to see her as a fully sexually realized woman because you have a Madonna/***** thing going on. I think my h does too. 
I don't know, just guessing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

MrVanilla said:


> I'm supposed to beat myself up emotionally for months on end, and do things I don't want to do because... why? No one can give me a good answer. There isn't a 'goal' for me besides "she wants me to do x to her" and I don't find that sort of behavior suits the image of who I am...


I don't know if it's a good answer, but two things come to mind for me.

#1 Marriage is a commitment to constant personal change.
#2 Marriage is unconditionally accepting who your partner was, who she is, and who she will become.

That is the only reason that I can offer you. Unfortunately some changes are disruptive "game changers", and most people tend to resist change. You are not alone. I can understand your hesitance to try to meet her needs. Change is uncomfortable, but it is also good.

Only you can decide how far you are willing to go for the woman that you love. IMHO when you are both striving to find the middle ground that meets both of your needs, you deepen and strengthen your love relationship. You may find that you enjoy something she enjoys. You may find that you have no opinion but are willing to do something because it makes her happy. You may find that after trying a few times you simply don't like it. At that point she needs to accept that this is who you are, but IMHO trying is important. 

Beyond that I don't think there is a "reason" for anyone to try anything.



MrVanilla said:


> Honestly? I think I'm afraid. I don't want to end up 'like them' (_them_ being that user type of guy).


Seeking to understand your lover and to meet her needs in spite of your own reservations is the holy grail of marriage. Making that kind of effort in no way shape or form makes you a user. It makes you a husband.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Exactly. I do wonder if maybe you are afraid that she might be thinking of the other people while she does this with you? Or she's going to compare you? 
I would say that I think her approach was wrong. She totally sprang it all on you at once instead of just going slowly and seeing if you were open to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

First, 
my apologizes to ValleyForge for the derail.
I'll be brief.



diwali123 said:


> Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Can I ask if you had any religious upbringing?


Not religious. 



diwali123 said:


> So you're afraid that if come to like certain acts too much eventually it's going to get to the point where you aren't satisfied with her and you need other people? Like you think experimenting will lead to loss of sexual control? You might end up a swinger?


No... I'm not receptive to trying certain acts _at all_. I'm listening, learning, trying to be as understanding as possible and hoping to find ways of changing my mind. I have never seen myself as the type of person to engage in such activities. So, I continue to seek information that might give me acceptable reasonings for changing my mind.



diwali123 said:


> This is what I don't understand, she was using them too. I'm not trying to be argumentative but do you really think that she didn't fully consent to all of this? Does it seem like she was tricked or like she was forced or maybe drunk? If not, then it was fully her choice and she was doing what she thought was best at the time. Why turn her into a victim?


I know that her casual encounters were mutually consensual - however - I cannot comprehend mutually consensual casual sexual encounters. These are alien to me, therefore there is no 'best at the time' because there is never a time to have one. 



diwali123 said:


> And then I think you need her to be a victim because it's too hard to see her as a fully sexually realized woman because you have a Madonna/***** thing going on. I think my h does too.



I won't speak on a public forum about my W's victimization, except to say that she is a survivor. 

For me to be suffering from a Madonna/***** complex... I wouldn't want to be sexually active _at all_ with her... so it's probably not that. =)

You can't get an argument from me! - just my respect for your opinion. I do have reservations with the validity of "fully sexually realized" as a 'preferred' state of being. 



pplwatching said:


> Seeking to understand your lover and to meet her needs in spite of your own reservations is the holy grail of marriage. Making that kind of effort in no way shape or form makes you a user. It makes you a husband.


Hiya ppl! 
Thanks again for the note.

If I take a couple of days off work to overcome a fever or the flu... it's better for the workplace. The illness won't drag out for weeks and I won't have huge drops in productivity. 

In this same regard, I alone, must be able to continue to appreciate myself for who I am, or who I will become. If I dislike the person I am becoming... both the marriage and my ability to be the husband I need to be will suffer. =)


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

MrVanilla said:


> Why she's bringing this stuff up after 16 years is a mystery that I don't think anyone will ever figure out. But I'm trying to be the best nice guy there is, and am very willing to work through this until we're both somewhat happy.
> 
> Honestly? I think I'm afraid. I don't want to end up 'like them' (_them_ being that user type of guy).
> 
> ...


Not to further derail here, just wanted to chime in myself on this as it has become rather interesting.

When you ask why she's bringing this all up now, have you asked her? I assume it wouldn't be a mystery if you did.

And you're trying to work through this until you're both happy? Considering this is something she wants to do, how can you say for certain that holding off until she no longer tries for this as something that will make both of you happy?

Finally, you end up as the man you make of yourself. Just because you start to experiment in bed doesn't mean you'll suddenly morph into something you don't respect. You are a (iassume) middle aged man who has 30-50 years of personal growth in him, forged from your own past experiences and the people around you, including family and friends. Going for a wild ride in bed with your wife isn't going to turn you into a user type of guy. You have a brain, you should be able to recognize if you're becoming a user or not.



MrVanilla said:


> I know that her casual encounters were mutually consensual - however - I cannot comprehend mutually consensual casual sexual encounters. These are alien to me, therefore there is no 'best at the time' because there is never a time to have one.
> 
> ...
> 
> In this same regard, I alone, must be able to continue to appreciate myself for who I am, or who I will become. If I dislike the person I am becoming... both the marriage and my ability to be the husband I need to be will suffer. =)


But they aren't alien to your wife, and she clearly does feel the need to revisit either that part of her life or, more likely, to enjoy those sex acts again. She quite enjoys them it seems, but you appear to be very rigid in your stance that they will never be a part of your marriage.

Which leads to the question about the person you are becoming. We are always changing, all of us. In this aspect of your life, are you changing for the better? It seems from your posts on the matter, you have become very closed minded to the subject of these sexual acts with your wife, and she clearly is not. I'm not saying to do anything uncomfortable or something you are very strongly against, but how is your communication on this matter? You preach of open-mindedness, yet you make statements like "I'm not receptive to trying certain acts at all" and "therefore there is no 'best at the time' because there is never a time to have one" and " I'm having very negative feelings toward any kind of 'sexual awakening' - I don't see any validity in that kind of behavior."

To me, it sounds like you aren't open-minded at all.

Finally, considering your rigid stance regarding sex, it's likely a good thing your wife explored her sexuality before she met you because for her sake I have no idea how she would be able to explore it with you. 

None of this was meant as an attack or anything, so please don't take it as such. Just my views on your recent posts in this thread.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

MrVanilla said:


> In this same regard, I alone, must be able to continue to appreciate myself for who I am, or who I will become. If I dislike the person I am becoming... both the marriage and my ability to be the husband I need to be will suffer. =)


This is not a one sided principle. Yes, she needs to accept who you are unconditionally. You need to accept who she is unconditionally. 

From this side of the fence post it seems to me like you don't want to accept who she was or who she is, either because of who her former lovers were, because her tastes are repulsive, or just because you were happy before she moved the cheese.

If I am wrong, and you do accept her then the question is where does that leave you? What do you do when you can accept who she was and is (and she you) but can not be the people who give each other what each needs? That is indeed a very tricky question, and a dangerous place to be. At that point you either roll up your sleeves and work to find a way to mutually solve the impasse, or your marriage suffers.

I guess each of you needs to decide how important what you want is to each of you. Only you can decide how far you are willing to go for the woman that you love.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I won't speak on a public forum about my W's victimization, except to say that she is a survivor. 

I don't know the entire situation obviously but as a survivor it does annoy me when people want to "blame" everything in my life on that, as if I have no free will. 
You seem very entrenched in your beliefs about sex and I'm guessing your wife is going to have a very hard time changing your mind about anything. But honestly she knew that when she married you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MindOverMatter (Jul 1, 2012)

ValleyForge said:


> Well positive developments;
> 
> I don't know if any of you guys have seen the TLC show "7 days of sex" or not. Basically it takes couple who are having issues and tries to see what therapeutic effect having sex with each other for 7 days in a row will have. I made the husband watch it and, surprise! He agreed to try it. We are about halfway through, but I think it's helping. Also I've been putting a lot of effort in to some pretty spectacular BJ's. Also we have actually been working together on finishing the room we're making in to our home gym, so I've seen effort from him on that front.
> 
> ...


VF,

I've read this thread with great interest, because my situation is the opposite (HD Kinky Husband/LD Vanilla wife). If there is any way I could get the "sex drive" portion of you DNA replicated and implanted in my wife, I would gladly pay you big money for that. 

I'm always STUNNED when I read something like what you posted -- where you basically were game for ANYTHING he wanted, and he still had no interest. From a guy's perspective, that's borderline insanity. But it does happen, sadly.

I wish you the best of luck and continued success, because I feel your pain on a daily basis


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

ValleyForge said:


> I don't know if any of you guys have seen the TLC show "7 days of sex" or not. Basically it takes couple who are having issues and tries to see what therapeutic effect having sex with each other for 7 days in a row will have. I made the husband watch it and, surprise! He agreed to try it. We are about halfway through, but I think it's helping. Also I've been putting a lot of effort in to some pretty spectacular BJ's. Also we have actually been working together on finishing the room we're making in to our home gym, so I've seen effort from him on that front.


I knew that this sounded familiar, but I don't watch TV so I wasn't familiar with that particular show. What has been tickling my memory is 101 Days of Sex.

Once you finish those 7 days, keep going


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

pplwatching said:


> I knew that this sounded familiar, but I don't watch TV so I wasn't familiar with that particular show. What has been tickling my memory is 101 Days of Sex.
> 
> Once you finish those 7 days, keep going


Last night I tried to get some from my fiancee after we had already done the deed the night before. She told me no because "I'm not a sex machine."

Didn't know sex on back to back days made you a sex machine. If so, I'd likely turn into a sex version of Inspector Gadget because I could do it day after day, in many a different way. :scratchhead:


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