# Need Some Perspective



## seesah (Apr 26, 2012)

I'm having a difficult time with my husband right now. We have been in MC for several months now working on communication issues but we just can't seem to get the hang of it. He has a lot of difficulty with empathy and when we communicate one of us usually takes the role of the persecutor while the other gets defensive. Or at least that's how it seems. I don't know how long it's been since we've been able to have an adult conversation without it turning into a fight. 

My husband works 3rd shift and he loves his job but it is causing him a lot of stress to be away from his daughter and I at night and sleeping during the day. Not only that, but he's a subcontractor and has been picking up some extra work on the side. His side work has been picking up a lot more lately and he's considered doing it full-time but he can't be sure that the increase in work is seasonal or not. He also plays football on Saturdays and soccer two (potentially three) times a week. He called in to his 3rd shift job last night because he hurt his back over the weekend playing football and because of that, he went over his "points" and they put him on a six-month suspension. 

Before he called in last night, he had been offered two tickets to see a concert tonight and he declined because he has custody of his daughter and hasn't been able to spend much time with her. Today he told me that he was on a six-month suspension from his job and also told me that he was going to the concert with a mutual friend of ours. It's common for him to tell me that he's going to do something without asking for my input. I told him that I wanted to spend time with him and reminded him that we were going to have his daughter. He told me not to beat around the bush and just tell him that I don't want him to go, when I did that, he said that he never has guy time and pretty much called me selfish. I told him that if he wasn't going to be home until 1am, I would go and stay at my parent's house with my step-daughter. He said that he wanted Olivia home, he wasn't going to go to the concert, he would be out of work by 5pm, and that I needed to stay the night at my parent's house.

Another issue with this is that I have had to work around his busy schedule to find a time for MC. We have MC every other week and he has given me very specific times to schedule it for. He has specified that Wednesday and Thursday are off limits because he has parenting time those days. So, to find that he has planned to go to a concert but has given me grief over scheduling MC the same day is very frustrating for me.

I just don't know how to talk to him. When I say that I don't want him to do something because I want to spend time with him, he does everything possible so that I back down. Today he blamed it on my codependency, something he knows that I struggle with and am in therapy for. 

Any advice? Does anyone have a different perspective on this issue?

Sorry if this sounds scatterbrained. I have a cold and am not thinking very clearly.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Seesah, I am so sorry to see this -- I've always appreciated your very sane comments. I have to rush out right now so I don't have time to comment in the way I would like to, but I'll be back.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

He works a crazy schedule, takes on extra work, needs his time for football and soccer every week, needs time with his daughter, and NOW he's saying that he never gets "Guy time"? When is your time?

This does not sound like a codependency problem at all. Sounds like he needs to be able to set real priorities that put you at the top of the list.

It is great, in my opinion, that you are seeing a marriage counselor. I think that this should be put on the agenda for the next meeting.

As a husband, I remember how if felt when I worked off-shift. There is often this feeling like the rest of the world is passing by, while he is working. The fact that others have their normal family time, guy time, and even sleep while he is working is a big deal, because he can lose perspective with the crazy hours. So, I understand why it makes things stressful for him. But I found that having quality time with my wife every day became my anchor to the rest of the world while I was working nights. He absolutely has to prioritize his life right now. Some of these other pursuits might have to go, in my opinion.

I hope you get to feeling better soon with the cold, also......


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

seesah, I worked 3rd shift on a 6 day week, for more than 7 years. That was with my wife working days and and new son at home. Just ships passing in the night. It took it toll on us. We lost our social life and many friends. Since it was my job causing the stress, I felt I had to give up a lot of my activities, hobbies and friends. I didn't like it, but I guess it was time to put my family first. When I look back on it now, I see that I had to make those sacrifices to keep my marriage. 
Shift work means you don't live a normal life. I don't advise it for young families. He either takes a day job or he has to make sacrifices to keep this marriage going. It will fail if he doesn't. You already know that. He has to do his part. I know it's easier said than done, but you can't let him off the hook. If he's too immature to get it, your in for a hard time. If you can get through to him, have the counselor help. Good luck.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I know how you feel seesah. I'm sorry you're having a tough time with all of this.

First off, you aren't being selfish. Halien is right about your husband not having his priorities straight. My husband worked 3rd shift for about 3 years and I wanted to bash in his skull most of that time. Quality time is my #1 love language. Didn't get much of that with him on that shift whatsoever. I can't tell you how many talks I had with him about this during those 3 years. The difference is, when he would ask me about doing something or going out, he didn't pout about my answer. I tried to be fair as much as possible with that, but I always made it clear to him that I missed my husband, and our relationship together has to be tended to or we would drift apart.

I don't know if you ever heard this, but maybe it'll make you chuckle. People that need/like to be in control are very good manipulators. Some men exercise this with women... the word NO when said by a woman is not a true answer, but instead a point of negotiation. They will not accept no for an answer. Men don't typically do this with other men, unless they perceive them as weaker in character. 

IDK if any of this helps. I do hope you feel better though. I think you were being reasonable. He just wants things his way.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Oh, Seesah. This makes me so sad.

I have to agree with Halien et al. He is not making your marriage a priority. You cannot make him want that. You can only proceed with that information.

I am so very sorry.


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## seesah (Apr 26, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> I don't know if you ever heard this, but maybe it'll make you chuckle. People that need/like to be in control are very good manipulators. Some men exercise this with women... the word NO when said by a woman is not a true answer, but instead a point of negotiation. They will not accept no for an answer. Men don't typically do this with other men, unless they perceive them as weaker in character.


This sounds JUST like my husband. Either he doesn't ask me or when he does, if I say no, he'll keep bugging me about it or say he's going to do it anyway and that he shouldn't need to ask my permission like a child. Our MC has told him that it sounds like I like to be part of the equation, even if it comes to the same outcome, I like to be consulted. I guess this is what he considers "consulting"...bullying me until I give in.

We do spend time together before his shift starts but it's rarely quality time. Usually it's on the road to go to a job (when he's got his subcontractor hat on), to go to his soccer game, his football practice, or to spend time with his friends. When we do have time at home, it's spent with him napping on the couch or watching TV. I don't have any friends so I don't make plans to go out on weekday nights. I guess my biggest problem is how to talk to him about it. 

He's 14 years older than I am so he thinks that he knows a lot more than I do since he has more life experience. In his last marriage, he and his ex were very independent people. They didn't talk to each other before going out to do things or making plans, neither do his parents for the most part. I think that has translated into how he things marriages should be. He blames his wife for a lot of why their marriage ended and he does have some good points but I'm seeing more and more what his role in it probably was.


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

Sounds like he is completely stressed and considers your time to be MC, but doesn't realize you need more time outside of MC. I would see if you can arrange something relaxing, where you can just chat. Of course MC is going to bring things up where you wind up in heated discussions as you work through issues, the important part is to continue those past the heat and into relaxation and to compromise outside of the MC sessions.


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## seesah (Apr 26, 2012)

livelaughlovenow said:


> Sounds like he is completely stressed and considers your time to be MC, but doesn't realize you need more time outside of MC. I would see if you can arrange something relaxing, where you can just chat. Of course MC is going to bring things up where you wind up in heated discussions as you work through issues, the important part is to continue those past the heat and into relaxation and to compromise outside of the MC sessions.


That's even more frustrating if that were true. We only see our MC every other week. Due to scheduling conflicts I don't think we've seen him in about a month now.

I know he's stressed. Which is why I haven't put up a fit about the many sports he's a part of. I figured that the approximately 9 hours a week he had for sports would be enough "me time" for him. I get plenty of my own time because I work part-time during the summer, I also volunteer six hours a week and take care of our step-daughter on the days we have her. It's not hard for me to find time for myself.

I just don't know how to talk to him about it. Everything I try and talk to him about, and I've tried several different ways, turns into a fight, especially when he's stressed, tired, and feels that he's been "wronged" in some way. He interrupts me, talks over me, blames me, or completely stonewalls me.


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

seesah said:


> That's even more frustrating if that were true. We only see our MC every other week. Due to scheduling conflicts I don't think we've seen him in about a month now.
> 
> I know he's stressed. Which is why I haven't put up a fit about the many sports he's a part of. I figured that the approximately 9 hours a week he had for sports would be enough "me time" for him. I get plenty of my own time because I work part-time during the summer, I also volunteer six hours a week and take care of our step-daughter on the days we have her. It's not hard for me to find time for myself.
> 
> I just don't know how to talk to him about it. Everything I try and talk to him about, and I've tried several different ways, turns into a fight, especially when he's stressed, tired, and feels that he's been "wronged" in some way. He interrupts me, talks over me, blames me, or completely stonewalls me.


No MC in about a month, sounds like that is due in short order, and that this should be the first line of business for the MC to help you to work on, since you do not feel that you are being heard.


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## seesah (Apr 26, 2012)

livelaughlovenow said:


> No MC in about a month, sounds like that is due in short order, and that this should be the first line of business for the MC to help you to work on, since you do not feel that you are being heard.


We talk about that at every MC session. H actually said that he didn't want to go anymore since we aren't in a crisis state and I agreed but now I'm not so sure anymore. I told him that he has to be accountable to someone because it sure isn't me.


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

Hmmmm.... I wish I had some other words of encouragement but it sounds like you have to instead ask yourself some hard questions, what are you willing to accept and not accept from this marriage. How much do you love your husband and how much are you willing to sacrifice to make it work.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> He's 14 years older than I am so he thinks that he knows a lot more than I do since he has more life experience. In his last marriage, he and his ex were very independent people. They didn't talk to each other before going out to do things or making plans, neither do his parents for the most part. I think that has translated into how he things marriages should be. He blames his wife for a lot of why their marriage ended and he does have some good points but I'm seeing more and more what his role in it probably was.


It's a combination of the above going on I think. Your age difference, his relationship with his ex, his role model with his parents marriage... maybe this is his core idea of how marriages go. He does his thing and you go along with it.

What I notice is people like him either had a very dominant/strong mother or older sisters while growing up. They don't really respect or like assertive women. They crave instead the opposite... complete submission. 

I saw this with my own parents. I remember my father telling my mother, "Why is everything a challenge with you??" The base of 80% of their fights were because of her questioning him about something he did or was considering. Her role (in his head) was just go along and support it. And that's if he bothered to tell her at all. My grandmother was the disciplinarian in his house growing up. A very dominating personality.


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## seesah (Apr 26, 2012)

livelaughlovenow said:


> Hmmmm.... I wish I had some other words of encouragement but it sounds like you have to instead ask yourself some hard questions, what are you willing to accept and not accept from this marriage. How much do you love your husband and how much are you willing to sacrifice to make it work.


Those are definitely some hard questions. I'm used to being the one to sacrifice everything in relationships, including my identity. However, I'm committed to my marriage and until I come to the conclusion that I am really the only one trying to make things work, I'll stick with it. 



A Bit Much said:


> It's a combination of the above going on I think. Your age difference, his relationship with his ex, his role model with his parents marriage... maybe this is his core idea of how marriages go. He does his thing and you go along with it.
> 
> What I notice is people like him either had a very dominant/strong mother or older sisters while growing up. They don't really respect or like assertive women. They crave instead the opposite... complete submission.


His father was in the military so his mom was home with my husband and his brothers the majority of the time. She had to be the disciplinarian. It's interesting because he tells me that he likes it when I put my foot down and stand up for myself but he fights it every step of the way. 

I'll also update: I tried to talk to him about this issue and eventually he became very defensive and told me he was done talking about it and walked out of the house. I let him go and went upstairs to write a note about everything that was going on in my head. Unfortunately, by this point, all of my resentments were spinning in my head and they all came out in the letter. By the time I came downstairs, he was at the computer. I printed out the letter and he read it and got really angry. I tried to be honest but I ended up saying some things that I had been holding back because I didn't want to start an argument. He kept saying that I wanted a perfect relationship, that I was depending too much on MC, and that I wanted everything by the book. Eventually it came out that he decided not to go to the concert because he listened to what I said and thought about it. I'm so used to him moping and pouting when I try and be assertive and I thought that's what he was doing. By then the conversation cooled down and we were talking instead of yelling.

I think I will work with my IC about assertiveness. I doubt myself a lot when it comes to whether I'm being rational or not. When he said he wasn't going to the concert, I felt guilty and spun it into him giving me a guilt trip. He said that he doesn't consider going to football and soccer as guy time because he's concentrated on being in "the zone" and playing the game more than he is conversing with the other guys.

I'm still unsure whether I'm trying to control things and make everything "perfect" or not. I think I've worked hard on lowering my expectations.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Seesah, without wishing to pile on with an overwhelming advice, I hope you can put some effort into making some friends of your own. I think it would really help your general outlook. Don't know where you are, but some areas have meetup.com groups which are an easy way to find folks with common interests. Even if it's just a book group or a walking group, it might really help. I know you are someone I'd like to have as a friend, so I'm sure it won't be hard for you to find some kindred souls!


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I went through this too, with my husband. Feeling guilty for making demands on his time, knowing he didn't have much time between work and sleeping on that shift. I had to keep reminding myself that while yes, it sucked to not see him or spend time with him as much as I liked, I still had a right to ask and/or expect him to be involved in the health of our relationship. It's a shift. It's not our life in it's entirety. We had to compromise and find unique ways to meet one anothers needs on a regular basis, yet still allow the time for the basics, like eating, sleeping, and work.

It's worrisome that he's so angry when you approach him about how you feel. He no doubt feels guilty in many ways and jumps on the defensive with you because he knows you're right. And IMO, the football and soccer IS guy time. He's playing a game! It's recreation, not work or the olympics for goodness sake. He has this recreation time more often than he has husband/wife time. I'm sure he hasn't really equated the time spent doing that stuff as much as you have.


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## seesah (Apr 26, 2012)

lamaga said:


> I know you are someone I'd like to have as a friend, so I'm sure it won't be hard for you to find some kindred souls!


Well thank you lamaga, that really does mean a lot.


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## seesah (Apr 26, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> I went through this too, with my husband. Feeling guilty for making demands on his time, knowing he didn't have much time between work and sleeping on that shift. I had to keep reminding myself that while yes, it sucked to not see him or spend time with him as much as I liked, I still had a right to ask and/or expect him to be involved in the health of our relationship. It's a shift. It's not our life in it's entirety. We had to compromise and find unique ways to meet one anothers needs on a regular basis, yet still allow the time for the basics, like eating, sleeping, and work.
> 
> It's worrisome that he's so angry when you approach him about how you feel. He no doubt feels guilty in many ways and jumps on the defensive with you because he knows you're right. And IMO, the football and soccer IS guy time. He's playing a game! It's recreation, not work or the olympics for goodness sake. He has this recreation time more often than he has husband/wife time. I'm sure he hasn't really equated the time spent doing that stuff as much as you have.


I think my codependency has a lot to do with questioning myself about whether I'm being rational or not and feeling guilty. He is no longer working the 3rd shift job so it should be easier to find time together. Yesterday he told me that he enjoys spending time with me and he was thinking that I could go with him when he has to travel distances (1 hour away from home) for work. As simple as that sounds, because words are so important to me, knowing that he likes to spend time with me really made me feel good. 

I read the 5 Love Languages a while back so I understand the different languages but not only has he not read the book, he also has trouble with empathy. It's difficult to get through to him how important it is for him to try and speak my language. For now, my IC has suggested that I try and see the ways he loves me through the way he speaks his love. One of his love languages are physical touch, especially sex. I read a message on this forum from someone who said that his wife has never made him beg for sex and that she's his best friend. As a result of that post, I have been trying to be less selfish when it comes to sex. The problem with that, is that sex often makes me feel used because of past relationships and one-night stands. I often used sex to get attention and to prevent the person I was with from leaving me. H doesn't understand why I can't just let him use me (his words...). He doesn't understand that I need to feel loved in order to get in the mood. He's got such a stereotypical male way of thinking so he thinks that all one needs to get turned on is to be touched in the erogenous zones, but all I feel when he starts groping me is irritation. This is another source of frustration in our relationship.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

seesah said:


> I think my codependency has a lot to do with questioning myself about whether I'm being rational or not and feeling guilty. He is no longer working the 3rd shift job so it should be easier to find time together. Yesterday he told me that he enjoys spending time with me and he was thinking that I could go with him when he has to travel distances (1 hour away from home) for work. As simple as that sounds, because words are so important to me, knowing that he likes to spend time with me really made me feel good.
> 
> I read the 5 Love Languages a while back so I understand the different languages but not only has he not read the book, he also has trouble with empathy. It's difficult to get through to him how important it is for him to try and speak my language. For now, my IC has suggested that I try and see the ways he loves me through the way he speaks his love. One of his love languages are physical touch, especially sex. I read a message on this forum from someone who said that his wife has never made him beg for sex and that she's his best friend. As a result of that post, I have been trying to be less selfish when it comes to sex. The problem with that, is that sex often makes me feel used because of past relationships and one-night stands. I often used sex to get attention and to prevent the person I was with from leaving me. H doesn't understand why I can't just let him use me (his words...). He doesn't understand that I need to feel loved in order to get in the mood. He's got such a stereotypical male way of thinking so he thinks that all one needs to get turned on is to be touched in the erogenous zones, but all I feel when he starts groping me is irritation. This is another source of frustration in our relationship.


Seesah, you and I have very much in common. I have similar trouble in the sex department. Add to the attention seeking that I was sexually abused by a member of my family as a child and we'd almost be the same person.

I need to be warmed up. I don't just jump into sex either... it takes me a lot longer because of my past trust issues with men in general. My husband is aware of these issues and does make an effort to spend the time with me to get me there. I'm one of those people that function better if I've had days of foreplay first... that means my primary love language of quality time. If he spends time with me, I get in the mood. During the focused attention I find myself being very affectionate with him...not leading necessarily to sex. And when I say time I don't mean I need day in and out all day long of focused attention, but we do things together that I like in spurts. An hour or two here and there over a couple of days, and I'm relaxed enough to really enjoy sex. I even initiate it more often because of his focused attention. We meet each others needs pretty well and often... his is physical touch first, then quality time. 

I hope you and your husband can find a middle ground. It's very good that he told you that he does want to spend time with you, and I certainly would take him up on those times. I'm a words backed with action kind of girl.


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## seesah (Apr 26, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> Seesah, you and I have very much in common. I have similar trouble in the sex department. Add to the attention seeking that I was sexually abused by a member of my family as a child and we'd almost be the same person.
> 
> I need to be warmed up. I don't just jump into sex either... it takes me a lot longer because of my past trust issues with men in general. My husband is aware of these issues and does make an effort to spend the time with me to get me there. I'm one of those people that function better if I've had days of foreplay first... that means my primary love language of quality time. If he spends time with me, I get in the mood. During the focused attention I find myself being very affectionate with him...not leading necessarily to sex. And when I say time I don't mean I need day in and out all day long of focused attention, but we do things together that I like in spurts. An hour or two here and there over a couple of days, and I'm relaxed enough to really enjoy sex. I even initiate it more often because of his focused attention. We meet each others needs pretty well and often... his is physical touch first, then quality time.
> 
> I hope you and your husband can find a middle ground. It's very good that he told you that he does want to spend time with you, and I certainly would take him up on those times. I'm a words backed with action kind of girl.


Molestation by a family member is part of my background as well. I have gone to therapy to cope with this issue but I think it caused a lot of my ideas about sex. 

I hope my husband and I can meet at some middle ground. My idea is that if I don't make him beg for sex anymore, he may feel more inclined to meet my needs. So far, so good. I just struggle with the feeling used part. When I'm feeling that way, I tend to distance myself from him completely. 

I love this forum. It's nice to know that I'm not alone in how I feel about things. It helps me to develop realistic expectations.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

IDK. I think your husband could help you out more with your feelings of being used if he was more inclined to meet your needs on a regular basis. I have had to fight those feelings myself, but they don't crop up nearly as much because of his approach with me. He understands me pretty well. 

Maybe I'm oversimplifying the problem you're having. What we do isn't a one size fits all solution. 

We do have a lot in common though. You're definitely not alone!!


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