# Are we making progress? I can't tell!



## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

We just finished another counseling session. And I'm left feeling...uncertain. I know I'VE made some changes, I slip here and there, but on the whole I'm really trying to alter my side of interactions with my H so we have more peace, more happiness, and less conflict. 
I can't help feeling like he's still STUCK in old complaints, and so as a couple we are just spinning our wheels.
It helps to process the way things have been going in the past week, week and a half, in pursuit of some clarity. 

*Adjusting my temperature*

I have significantly backed off in the behaviors that made me "hot/warm" to his "cool."
--I'm busy and focused on my work.
--I'm not bringing up deep or emotional topics for conversation; i'm not even really bouncing ideas off him for my work, like I used to. Bottom line: I'm backing off.
--I'm not home when he gets home. Yesterday he seemed mildly irritated about this, and that I hadn't planned every detail of our dinner menu. I ignored his irritation and cheerfully cooked dinner (it was 4:00)
--After dinner I took a bath and read in the tub, and after 20 minutes he knocked on the door to remind me that our show was on in 5 min. He asked if I wanted a towel, and then nagged me about not dripping water on the floor and I said "Got it; I'm a grown-up. Get outta here, I'll be out in a minute."
---He woke up grumpy this morning. I didn't try to engage him, hang all over him, and find out what was wrong, but I did ask if he was feeling ok. When he said he was achey, I got him some Tylenol.

*Counseling*

He started out saying he wanted to "continue his self-exploration, and why his temper rises and he gets upset."
But as the session progressed, he just seemed entrenched in wanting to be stuck in a posture of FIGHT:
---"Everything is a power struggle! Every interaction!"
Also, stuck in OLD COMPLAINTS about things that do not happen anymore.

I suggested that simply *understanding each other's pov* is the way to *have two points of view without them competing, without it being a power struggle.*
I told him I'm trying to "seek understanding first, then to be understood."
He actually saw this statement as an attempt on my part to SHOVE MY POV DOWN HIS THROAT. 
--But I *know* from the past week's interactions, that this has been a helpful way to handle disagreements.

He really has not gotten out of a defensive posture.
He really still views and perceives everything as a competition, power struggle, fight--even counseling, even recommendations at how to SOLVE these issues.
He really spends our time in counseling complaining about me, rather than considering how to solve and change things.
It is exhausting.

On the good side....
The counselor challenged him: "Why do you frame things in this way, that 'everything is a power struggle'?"
He said, "Because that's what I learned from my parents."
(read: DYSFUNCTION, CONSTANT FIGHTING, RESENTMENT)

I told him that it puts distance between us when he loses his cool, yells, and cusses.
I told him I'm working on eliminating behaviors he doesn't like, and asked him to do the same with THOSE behaviors.
He said he'll work on it.

Interestingly...
The things he said he "appreciated" about me this week were how focused I was on getting my work done.
He also said he felt bad for distracting me to ask me about "unimportant things."
--->So it increases his respect for me when I focus more on MY things and less on trying to be a full-time, perfect, doting wife. Hence the good effects of the temperature cool-down.

I put SO MUCH thought, time and energy into how to change my side of our dynamic, put his needs first, understand from his pov, not make him responsible for MY needs, etc....

What will it take for him to give up his defensiveness and stop pointing fingers at me?

That's semi-rhetorical. I'm open to any and all feedback, thanks for reading.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Forgot to add one thing:
on the way out of and after we got home from MC, he was cheerful and affectionate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbm (Jan 9, 2011)

Because we dont know the history of behaviour that made you decide to attend councilling it is somewhat hard to answer this question.

In saying that i do think that by attending councilling is a huge progress step for the both of you, and the fact that you are trying so hard to make your marriage and just friendship stronger is fantastic.

I think that your husband is trying to i just think that some men find these relationship situations harder to talk about and deal with, the fact that he cheerful and affectionate towards you is great.

I think that maybe you will have to come to turns with the fact that it may take him a while to change his behaviour as he has been taught this from a young age from his parents, this can be hard for anyone to break away from and change ...
I am positive he will get there it will just take time, i say this because he is willing to go to councilling and he recognises he has issues with getting angry fast ect...

Keep up your great work and i wish you all the best.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Also, stuck in OLD COMPLAINTS about things that do not happen anymore.
> 
> I suggested that simply *understanding each other's pov* is the way to *have two points of view without them competing, without it being a power struggle.*


I dont know if you appreciate how ironic your reply to his "complaints" were. He was stating his pov, or complaints as you call them, and you completely put him off and labeled how he feels as irrelevant complaints. How about taking your own advice?

If you want to start healing you will apologize to him for labeling his feelings as irrelevant complaints that are better off discarded for your pov. If you dont get that, then you're a ways off from healing.

You are constantly telling him things instead of listening to him. You tell him how he should think, feel, and even act in public. He was correct in feeling you tried to shove your POV down his throat. You've got to learn to listen to him and respect him. The complaints are not old, they're still around because you cant simply run away from what you've created. Listen to his point of view. Dont think of it as him just complaining. This is how he feels and how he feels is really important. Empathize with him. He's in pain. He's hurt. that doesnt mean you have to fix how he feels or that you're necessarily responsible for it. but its how he feels and he will not feel safe being vulnerable with you until you learn to listen to him instead of judging him. 

You have a very deleterious mind set that you are some how better then him, or have put in more effort then him. You will never heal until you realize you and he are completely equal in every respect.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Ok, ok, thanks for the tough love...

True: I went in saying "I'll seek first to understand, and then be understood," and then proceeded to tell him what I wanted him to understand.
I can see that. Guess I wouldve done better to practice it and not just preach it.
I'm just frustrated and discouraged because my tone is "how can we solve?"
and his was very defensive----that I did not imagine.

Arbm, thanks for your encouragement. I've posted at length about the conflicts we're having, though I didn't update on this post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I'm just frustrated and discouraged because my tone is "how can we solve?"
> and his was very defensive


one more thing then i promise i will back off.

Your _logic_ is "how can we solve" but your _tone_ is "how can we make me feel better?" What he picks up on is your tone and that is why he becomes defensive. When he does or says something that makes you not feel good you have to stop it and your tone reduces him to an object of your happiness. Your logic is fine, but your tone needs some tuning. Easier said then done, of course.

His defensiveness, anger, and all negative projections are not in the way, they are the way to the solution.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Blanca said:


> Your _logic_ is "how can we solve" but your _tone_ is "how can we make me feel better?"


somehow, I think this is true.
It's not my literal tone, though; I'm calm, attentive to him, and quiet when I go into solution mode. In session, im almost whispering, the louder and more emotional he gets. 
But yes, he's getting the message "how can we make me feel better?"
though my intention is "how can we be closer, happier, more peaceful?"
also: I can't help that I want him to care whether I feel better or not.
Shouldn't I also care if he does?

I don't see how his anger and defensiveness are the way to the solution. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't see it at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

Blanca said:


> (SNIP)
> If you want to start healing you will apologize to him for labeling his feelings as irrelevant complaints that are better off discarded for your pov. If you dont get that, then you're a ways off from healing.(SNIP)
> Listen to his point of view. Dont think of it as him just complaining. This is how he feels and how he feels is really important. Empathize with him. He's in pain. He's hurt. that doesnt mean you have to fix how he feels or that you're necessarily responsible for it. but its how he feels and he will not feel safe being vulnerable with you until you learn to listen to him instead of judging him. (SNIP)


I have a feeling this is a very potent post.... I can't say I'm exactly comfortable reading it but given that I can relate to a lot of what Creda says and Blanca's points made me really stop short and think, I reckon it's probably good advice. (mind you, as we all know, knowing and doing are two different things!)



Blanca said:


> (SNIP)
> 
> His defensiveness, anger, and all negative projections are not in the way, they are the way to the solution.


 ? ... don't really understand this



credamdóchasgra said:


> (SNIP)
> But yes, he's getting the message "how can we make me feel better?"
> though my intention is "how can we be closer, happier, more peaceful?"
> also: I can't help that I want him to care whether I feel better or not.
> ...


My feelings exactly (I'd put the earlier bit about anger/etc before realising I was copying your phrase almost word for word!)

How, in simple language, day to day, can the anger of someone who gets fired up sometimes seemingly on a hairtrigger (the description may not apply precisely to Creda's other half exactly but certainly does to mine) be used positively to help mend/rebuild/improve a relationship?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

If I made any mistakes yesterday in counseling, it was that I brought up things from the past week:
even if there IS something to be learned by both of us, for some reason that just triggers defensiveness in him.
And it gets him completely AWAY from what HE said he wanted to do:
"self-explore and figure out what my triggers are."
i'm guessing he'll only do that if I back off in counseling and let the counselor lead him there.
And yes, this may sound like I think *I* don't need the work in mc too...but at this point, I have to let the counselor lead.
And he was focusing on the statements my H made, and inquiring about them.
If we have a happier week, I'll be much more able to do that in next week's session.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Quick thought: Whenever you bring up something your man did in the past, this is what his thought is: "No matter how hard I try she will not ever get over X, so I give up".


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Hicks said:


> Quick thought: Whenever you bring up something your man did in the past, this is what his thought is: "No matter how hard I try she will not ever get over X, so I give up".


I hear you.

Sometimes in counseling we talk about "how the week went" so we can learn from our interactions, good and bad.
But if this is what he thinks, then it's counter-productive.

And by the way...he spent a fair amount of our session bringing up things I've done FURTHER in the past (much longer ago than in the past week)---before I brought up last week's stuff.

I had to quietly say, "That has not happened in awhile."
And he agreed.

then defensively said "Well, I haven't yelled and cussed in awhile!"
And--sorry, folks--but I had to remind him that yes, he did, 3 times in the past week.
A person has to own his behaviors. I can't own both of our behaviors. 

I know I need to respect his pov, love and understand him...

The challenge right now is that he still has his fighting gloves on, even while I'm saying, "yes. and what shall we do about it?"

He's still convinced that marriage = head-butting conflict
I'm committed to changing as much as I can on MY side that contributes to that perception. I know it takes two.

I also told him HOW MUCH I LOVE and appreciate it when he has a smile and/or relaxed/calm way when we talk, and how nice it is...so that I wasn't just throwing criticism at him.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

And now, he will likely passively aggressively withhold the behaviors you compliment.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> And now, he will likely passively aggressively withhold the behaviors you compliment.


Beeeeecause...I brought up old arguments at MC?
Or because I complimented him on those behaviors? :scratchhead:
...or because I did BOTH?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Beeeeecause...I brought up old arguments at MC?
> Or because I complimented him on those behaviors? :scratchhead:
> ...or because I did BOTH?


My wife and I have discussed "fitness tests" at length.

We have laughed at your description of yourself as a "Fitness Test Factory"

I especially enjoyed that.

The male equivalent is often to withhold what you want. It's called passive aggressive behavior. And, we think it may be the 'Male way" of fitness testing relationships.

Just be careful how much you share.

Do you really think he doesn't already know these things?

Repeating them makes you seem needy.

I'll bet he knows them all.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> My wife and I have discussed "fitness tests" at length.
> 
> We have laughed at your description of yourself as a "Fitness Test Factory"
> 
> ...


Glad my :soapbox: gave you and your wife a kick.  

Yes, he and I agree that we both hate when I am needy. 

Silly me, I thought it would make him feel appreciated and not just criticized, to encourage MORE of the happy stuff instead of focus on just the unhappy stuff.

SO: I am duely warned. I suppose I pass this "fitness test" (should it happen) by being indifferent to it, a la cool temperature setting?

In another thread, you said that MC should be "emphasized and maximized." <---HOW???


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## Janie (Apr 10, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> What will it take for him to give up his defensiveness and stop pointing fingers at me?


You're already doing it. The only thing you can do is figure yourself out and change your behavior. I admire your honesty and ability to take tough criticism. It makes me believe your motives are pure. Keep putting it out there and learn from your own experience and listen to the feedback of others. Learn and grow. And with consistency on your part, over time he will let his guard down.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Janie said:


> You're already doing it. The only thing you can do is figure yourself out and change your behavior. I admire your honesty and ability to take tough criticism. It makes me believe your motives are pure. Keep putting it out there and learn from your own experience and listen to the feedback of others. Learn and grow. And with consistency on your part, over time he will let his guard down.


Thank you for the encouragement. Reading your other post on the "success" thread--sounds like the kind of honest, fearless, relaxed, respectful relationship I hope to have.

I need the tough criticism, because at this point I am unsure of myself and how to do what is best for my relationship.

Key word you said---CONSISTENCY on my part.
Regardless of what he says or doesn't say, does or doesn't do.
That's the tough part. But I'm committed.


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

Janie said:


> You're already doing it. The only thing you can do is figure yourself out and change your behavior. I admire your honesty and ability to take tough criticism. It makes me believe your motives are pure. Keep putting it out there and learn from your own experience and listen to the feedback of others. Learn and grow. And with consistency on your part, over time he will let his guard down.


I agree. IMO, at this point your transformation is so new that you should only concern yourself with your progress. Not an easy task, but you seem ready.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

WhereAmI said:


> I agree. IMO, at this point your transformation is so new that you should only concern yourself with your progress. Not an easy task, but you seem ready.


You make a good point and I appreciate seeing it as "new" because it's hard not to become impatient.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

Yes you've figured quite lots of things out and your direction is clear. It still requires lots of communication and attempts to change the situation with your husband but you're doing well in your parts. He's a bit behind, but you know he's following up and learning from your changes.
Keep up the good work!


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## Janie (Apr 10, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Key word you said---CONSISTENCY on my part.


I'm glad you noticed that because I believe it is the key to every relationship and reveals our own identity. 

You are working (hard) to understand yourself and your tendencies and motivations. Find the weaknesses, deal with the underlying issues, heal the wounds, and see things differently - all leading to new and better behaviors. In time, consistency will be less arduous because your frame of reference will have shifted.

And once people know what to expect from you - on a consistent basis - defenses are much easier to lower. 

Regardless of your marital situation - this is the growth we should all strive for.


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