# i guess we arent sick after all...



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

...those of us who practice kink.
i always assumed as much, but you wouldnt know it with how often we are told that we suffer some form of phychological illness, and that we need therapy to find out why we want to engage in an unusual activity.

Bondage Benefits: BDSM Practitioners Healthier Than 'Vanilla' People | LiveScience


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Great article, As'laDain. Thanks for sharing.

_Wismeijer isn't exactly sure why BDSM practitioners might be psychologically healthier than the general public. They tend to be more aware of their sexual needs and desires than vanilla people, he said, which could translate to less frustration in bed and in relationships. Coming to terms with their unusual sexual predilections and choosing to live the BDSM lifestyle may also take hard psychological work that translates to positive mental health, he said._

I totally agree with the quote above. 

It is so hard to go against what we know is normal in society, and just be ourselves. Transparency is key in D/s relationships, but healthy in just about any relationship.

It takes trust, and trust has to be earned, and has to continue being earned. There is a lot of attention that has to be paid for these relationships to remain strong. But it is so worthwhile. 

I think it is hard for those who have not experienced this to understand how intense these relationships can be, and how extremely rewarding and fulfilling.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Great link As'laDain!

What I found most pertinent considering the recent mood here at TAM:

"


> These roles showed some links to psychological health, such that dominants tended to score highest in all quarters, submissives lowest and switches in the middle. *However, submissives never scored lower than vanilla participants on mental health, and frequently scored higher,* Wismeijer told LiveScience.
> 
> "Within the BDSM community, [submissives] were always perceived as the most vulnerable, but still, *there was not one finding in which the submissives scored less favorable than the controls*," he said."


So those of us who identify as a submissive are just as crazy as everyone else, no more and no less!  but you dominants have really go it going on! :whip:


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> So once again..As'laDain..I would ask..please define kink for me.
> Is your kink like Jld...dominant sub...but not sexually?
> 
> I thought I was pretty knowledgable but I guess not.


kink is just any sexual activity that is outside the norm. the problem is that there are so many flavors of kink that its just about impossible to define it specifically. 

there are kinky practices that go on in the bedroom, from the whips and chains we all hear about, to less kinky things like role play. 

the last one is something that many people dont even think of as kink, but what if you role played 24/7? lets say the 24/7 role play is sexually charged, so much so that you CRAVE sex at the end of the day?

the lifestyle kinks are kinda like that. both partners play up the role that turns the other on, makes them feel safe, etc. its taking on a role that fulfills the needs of the others needs and turns them on. 

my kink is like jlds, not based on sex and not restricted to the bedroom, but we DO keep it sexually charged. 

a lot of times, kink is just fantasy sex. and i really dont think its a bad thing at all. i mean, think about it, lets say you get turned on by Rambo green beret man. so, lets say (hypothetical) you fantasize about your green beret man and get all turned on, but when your husband gets home, you look at him and he is obviously no Rambo. thats where the role play comes in. come up with some scene, play it out, and you get to imagine your husband AS RAMBO!!!

if he manages to play it off well enough, you get to have hot exciting sex, which you will associating with him. he becomes a little hotter in your eyes. do this often enough and his face is associated with that HOT sexual fulfillment. 

now, lets say that your husband decides to play this role for you, and you decide that you want him to be Rambo man all the time. well, he would have to play the part right? so, he would have to work out, learn some field-craft, maybe take up some martial arts lessons in order to play the part for you. in that case, your husband would be becoming the kind of man that turns you on. as he gets better at it, you get more turned on, he gets more sex, which makes him happy, etc, etc, etc.

eventually, he starts feeling like he really is your Rambo Man, which makes him even more sexy. 

now, of course, that whole scenario was hypothetical, but its not too far off from the reality of the 24/7 lifestyle kinks.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Ok...let me try to explain something....John and I are VERY open minded. We have "tried" damn near everything sexually....as long as no pain is involved...(yes We own handcuffs and whips and butt plugs and blindfolds, and costumes of every shape and kind, yes we take pictures, yes we are nudists, yes we have gone to strip clubs etc....)
> 
> I guess because it was always us...we never thought it to be kink...because after all...what we do in our bedroom is nobody else's business right?
> 
> ...


im not the one who wants to put myself into a category.
but, when we tell others about what we do, we get the reaction that it is something way outside the norm. so, they define it as kinky.

at first, it was odd to me. but, i find it pretty normal now. 


thats why i just assume that "kink" is anything out of the normal. anything that people are afraid to try or talk about that involves sex. as our culture progresses, the term changes meaning. 

so, as long as we have people saying "you do WHAT?" i would call it kink.

i mean, if i say "last night i was having sex with my wife and i the idea struck me to flip her over and take her from behind, like an animal..." and the response is bewilderment or hostility, or a suggestion that i go to therapy to deal with my bestiality issues, i would call it kink too. 

its not that i want to put a label on it, its a recognition that society puts a label on it anyway. and im ok with that.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Ok...let me try to explain something....John and I are VERY open minded. We have "tried" damn near everything sexually....as long as no pain is involved...(yes We own handcuffs and whips and butt plugs and blindfolds, and costumes of every shape and kind, yes we take pictures, yes we are nudists, yes we have gone to strip clubs etc....)
> 
> I guess because it was always us...we never thought it to be kink...because after all...what we do in our bedroom is nobody else's business right?
> 
> ...


It makes complete and perfect sense to me. I grew up with the knowledge that toys, magazines, videos, etc were considered "normal". It was even to the point that my mom's best friend actually had (and still does!) a cat o'nine tails on her keychain. LOL. I was also raised with the idea of a "traditional" marriage. The man works his butt off for the family, the wife is either a SAHW or SAHM. She can work if she wants to, but it wasn't expected of her to actually work. She was expected though to take care of all the household issues and the children.

But I FULLY believe that society has to find "labels" for everyone. So if you aren't with the "mainstream" or "trendy" ideas, you are "not normal". Since As'ladain and I CHOOSE to live our lives as a 24/7 D/s couple, we get the "label" of having a "kink".

As for the definition of what is kink and what is vanilla, this is what a dictionary comes up with for the word 'kink' (look at #5): Kink | Define Kink at Dictionary.com

So, if it's unconventional (ie not the norm) it's considered by society to be 'kink'. If it's what society deems conventional, it's vanilla.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> sounds normal to me...
> 
> Like I said...who the hell defines normal
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

the only thing that annoys me is the constant implications that we are all in dire need of therapy. 

fact is, there is nothing wrong with us.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

To me, if you find it on Fetlife, it's kink. 

MJA, think about the way people have responded to my threads and my lifestyle. Does the way people have gone after me and tried to discredit me sound normal to you? Or is there something there that seems so different to them, so strange, and just so . . . _wrong_, that they have to criticize it.

Think about some of your own posts about me. Would you have done that to some of the other posters here, not living my lifestyle? There is a reason for that, and I think the reason is because it seems out of the mainstream.

We did not have a name for this for years, btw, before we got internet access in the early 2000s. We just knew it was how we were, or really, how I was. 

So no one needs a label. It is just easier to sort things out that way, I guess.


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## secret10 (Feb 12, 2014)

I just have to say ya'll are cracking me up. I don't understand this stuff, I don't know what it is but doesn't every couple have their own things? Just this morning my 9yo asked me why we call a plate a plate. Hmmm, I don't know but someone named it that. Then she went on to say that it would be weird if we called a plate a cup and a cup a plate. Yep, it sure would. I guess the meaning is within whomever is using the term, and it could mean something different to a different person. Afterall, my 5yo calls a fork a pokey spoon.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Exactly. And no one tells them they need therapy.

And my daughter used to call convertibles, "broken cars."


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I always wonder what criteria a study uses to determine psychological health.

I have nothing against "kink". Unashamed fun in the bedroom is always healthy.

Mrs. Conan and I don't necessarily role play, but we keep sexual tension on at all times.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I always wonder what criteria a study uses to determine psychological health.
> 
> I have nothing against "kink". Unashamed fun in the bedroom is always healthy.
> 
> Mrs. Conan and I don't necessarily role play, but we keep sexual tension on at all times.


Just out of curiosity, how do you do that? Because for me, it is strongly related to the D/s. The deep needs that are met just keep me aroused.

You don't have to answer. I know it is personal.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I can't help but wonder if the study considered external factors that impact "psychological health" and whether they accounted for those.

It's like the "doing this or that twice a day adds five years to your life" type studies. If one has enough time and money and clear mind to devote x amount of time per day to activity y, then no wonder they're in better psychological shape than the guy who has to work for peanuts or can't pay the rent or is bickering with his partner and so on.

Disclaimer: that's my 5 minute analysis without reading the actual paper. I'll read it once I'm done playing Paul Bunion in the backyard and update y'all.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You know, MJA, I wonder if a better term to use, at least for my own marriage, would be power exchange. I think that is more descriptive.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

john117 said:


> I can't help but wonder if the study considered external factors that impact "psychological health" and whether they accounted for those.
> 
> It's like the "doing this or that twice a day adds five years to your life" type studies. If one has enough time and money and clear mind to devote x amount of time per day to activity y, then no wonder they're in better psychological shape than the guy who has to work for peanuts or can't pay the rent or is bickering with his partner and so on.
> 
> Disclaimer: that's my 5 minute analysis without reading the actual paper. I'll read it once I'm done playing Paul Bunion in the backyard and update y'all.


i kind of want to know the methodology too. ill see if i can get a copy of the original article through my institution.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i found an interesting article on kink and social stigmas. 

this line struck me...



> Decisions about whether or not a behavior is "pathological" are quite literally made by a vote of a bunch of mostly old white heterosexual men.


http://www.ipgcounseling.com/sites/ipgcounseling.com/files/content/pdf/3psychology_bdsm.pdf


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

On second thought, the paper was done in the Netherlands so I would not be heading down to the Paducah Walmart looking for BDSM items quite yet :rofl:

It probably makes the actual study more interesting because the Dutch have it a bit better than us time and stress wise so....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well, much of behavioral and clinical psychology is done by a bunch of older white heterosexual males. As the country turns more conservative (thanks, FOX News) it's no wonder. 

By the time we get to DSM-VI if the trend continues anything other than missionary will have an entry in it...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I posted about it because I was frustrated. I was looking for help and support. And I got it. Dh read the thread and started to realize he needed to do more. And he is.

Did you see my post about calling it power exchange? That is a more descriptive term, I think.

As far as the poly family you know . . . not for me, but hey, to each his own. And in some countries, that might be the norm. 

It's all what we're used to, I guess.


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## MisterG (Jan 24, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Great link As'laDain!
> 
> What I found most pertinent considering the recent mood here at TAM:
> 
> ...


So, who do you think would be more troubled: a kinkster who realizes he/she is just like the vanillas, or a vanilla who realizes he/she is just like the kinksters?

Sort of like Nancy Pelosi and Rush Limbaugh waking up naked in bed together after a night of heavy drinking.


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## MisterG (Jan 24, 2014)

And I apologize to *As'laDain* for going off topic, but that idea just struck me as too funny to ignore.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MisterG said:


> So, who do you think would be more troubled: a kinkster who realizes he/she is just like the vanillas, or a vanilla who realizes he/she is just like the kinksters?
> 
> *Sort of like Nancy Pelosi and Rush Limbaugh waking up naked in bed together after a night of heavy drinking.*


:rofl:


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

MisterG said:


> And I apologize to *As'laDain* for going off topic, but that idea just struck me as too funny to ignore.


its ok, i about choked on my coffee on that one.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Now what I do find interesting is WHY you would choose to reveal it to everyone else unless you WANT to stir controversy. If you are satisfied in your life choices...why does it matter what I or anyone think about it?and why you choose to call it KINK? It's your life...nothing Kinky about it.


I had to pull this particular part out to answer. I honestly don't give a rat's tail what a person thinks of my lifestyle. I'm not telling them how to live their lives, or telling them they are mentally defective for thinking a power-exchange or Total Power Exchange relationship is one way a marriage could be made to work wonderfully with.

I don't talk about a topic to "stir controversy". I talk about topics to facilitate discussion on them. You (MJA) have come across time and time again as completely open-minded...maybe not agreeing to an OP's argument, but at least willing to see their side of it. Thank you for that. That's why (at least for me) I post and talk about these things. I don't agree with some of the arguments made of this board, but I am totally willing to see something from their point of view.

I just find it appalling that because we have chosen to "out" ourselves, we are to be condemned for doing it. To have insinuations that (in particular me) I am not willing to hold up my adult responsibilities, or that I'm seriously screwed up in the head (I've had that checked several times...not a psychopath woo hoo!), or that I'm somehow anti-feminist (kinda true...really dislike the 1970s feminists and look more towards the Suffragettes versions for inspiration)...

It amazes me that in today's world of equality, there are still areas where people are criticized, harassed, and made to hide their true natures because society has decided they are "not normal humans".


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm a feminist....and a submissive. 

I started a thread in private section about my daughter's big fat gay wedding. I have mentioned my daughter who is a lesbian in several posts where it was somewhat on topic. But I wanted to start a thread about it. I wanted other parents who struggle with their child's sexuality to see that it was okay, no one was going to accuse them of screwing up their kid. I outed myself as a Mom of a gay kid so that other moms and or dads would see a parent being okay with it.

It worked! I've heard from a few other parents who struggle with their child's sexuality. I would never betray their confidence but I hope they come to a place of full acceptance. 

We out ourselves to promote understanding, not to promote controversy.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MisterG said:


> So, who do you think would be more troubled: a kinkster who realizes he/she is just like the vanillas, or a vanilla who realizes he/she is just like the kinksters?
> 
> Sort of like Nancy Pelosi and Rush Limbaugh waking up naked in bed together after a night of heavy drinking.


Who do you think would be more sick about that? Rush or Nancy?

Oh, that might make a great story!


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm a feminist....and a submissive.
> 
> I started a thread in private section about my daughter's big fat gay wedding. I have mentioned my daughter who is a lesbian in several posts where it was somewhat on topic. But I wanted to start a thread about it. I wanted other parents who struggle with their child's sexuality to see that it was okay, no one was going to accuse them of screwing up their kid. I outed myself as a Mom of a gay kid so that other moms and or dads would see a parent being okay with it.
> 
> ...


that is actually part of it... i wanted to find other people who we could relate to....

...and it worked. 

im glad you found people who can relate to you AP.


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## secret10 (Feb 12, 2014)

I think that people reveal things about themselves mostly because they want approval or reassurance that they're not alone or crazy. I'm sure there are a few that do it purely for attention too. Not saying that here right now at all. Also people may reveal things to learn or even to teach. There are certainly things I've learned that I couldn't readily find info on. Sometimes I wonder why the heck I never knew that certain things would happen or work the way that they do. 

Also, there may be those who are offended by thinking that their relationship is anything even close to kink or a fetish. I mean, those terms can come across as somewhat naughty to some. There are things that my husband and I do that some consider fetish, I see it as not even close to a fetish and they don't understand if they call it that. BUT... it doesn't matter anyway because it's ours not theirs. Some terms feel insulting if that's how you look at it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I never thought of it that way, secret, that people might be scared that the things they do might be considered kink, and that might be too weird a label for them to wear. So they say, it's normal, totally normal, and they feel reassured.

I think it is freeing. It kind of says, okay, the way I live is different, I know it, and that is just how it is. And I don't have to feel guilty and pretend and try to fit in. I can just be myself, and enjoy it. And so can everybody else who self-identifies as such. And we can support each other, offer each other acceptance, even if we all do it a little differently.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

As'laDain said:


> ...those of us who practice kink.
> i always assumed as much, but you wouldnt know it with how often we are told that we suffer some form of phychological illness, and that we need therapy to find out why we want to engage in an unusual activity.
> 
> Bondage Benefits: BDSM Practitioners Healthier Than 'Vanilla' People | LiveScience


:rofl: "healthier." I love when threads are posted casting an entire group of people aside saying "A is healthier B."

Just cause some folks don't practice BDSM doesn't make them "unhealthier" than folks who do.

And I'd hardly call folks who don't practice BDSM "vanilla." 

Just sounds like projecting.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

As'laDain said:


> im not the one who wants to put myself into a category.
> 
> its not that i want to put a label on it, its a recognition that society puts a label on it anyway. and im ok with that.


But you ARE putting yourself in a category by even posting this. 

Also, "society" labeling you? You are doing that yourself by saying you're into BDSM and making it the entire spirit of your thread. Then you say you're "ok" with society labeling you, yet you are posting about how everyone else is "vanilla" and less "healthy" and how wrong people are for saying something is wrong with you.


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## Happyquest (Apr 21, 2009)

I am bring home the handcuffs tonight its time to start getting healthy. Oh wait we already have ropes, handcuffs, toys exctra. Wait does this mean I am ahead of the curve for once in my life?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Interesting article As'laDain--thanks for posting. I should print it out for my therapist. :rofl:

I think it can be fairly said that, since BDSM has a place in the DSM, that it's been judged by the mental health community--if not society at large--as a significant detail when its comes to one's mental health. I think it's also fair to say that "conditions" that make their way into the DSM are generally those that are considered to affect mental health negatively. Hence the stigma.

That being said, lots of things that are not problematic for some people ARE problematic for others--but those things are not in the DSM. Like not feeling free to express one's sexuality freely. Is THAT is the DSM? No. Maybe it should be. Instead of including things like BDSM and homosexuality (no longer in DSM, I know) . . how about just putting "sexual repression" in the DSM?

Heck, I recently found out that caffeine withdrawal was including in the latest DSM. It CAN be severe enough to cause psychotic symptoms, but it isn't like that for everyone. 

I would say that freely and happily practicing BDSM for those who have the predilection DOES make them happier and healthier. But is the lack of repression that is making them so, not the BDSM. 

If you notice, the BDSM group in the study was self-selecting--the group was gathered from a large online BDSM community. People on that forum were "into" the scene. They had an outlet for expressing their sexual and life style preferences. I think this sample was already stacked for superior "mental health." 

On the other hand, the "non BDSM" sample was from a woman's magazine site, a "personal secret" site, and a university web site. I'd think that at least the "personal secret" web site would yield folks who are struggling with repression of some sort. A woman's magazine site is not general population, and nor is a university community. You end up with a population with, at the very least, a fair mix of people who are satisfied and unsatisfied with their ability to express themselves sexually. 

So, do I think that BDSMers are more healthy because they "enjoy sex with a side of pain?" No I don't. Do I think the ones who embrace it and practice it joyously with a consenting and like-minded parter are more mentally healthy than sexually repressed/unsatisfied folks? All other things in the lives of both groups being equal, I'm sure they are. 

I think there are probably plenty of folks who practice BDSM with secrecy and shame, who repress it, who cannot find an outlet for it, or who see its inclusion in the DSM and an indication that they are "sick." Those folks are much worse off, I bet, then folks who are happy with their so-called "vanilla" lives.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> :rofl: "healthier." I love when threads are posted casting an entire group of people aside saying "A is healthier B."
> 
> Just cause some folks don't practice BDSM doesn't make them "unhealthier" than folks who do.
> 
> ...


Why would you think being "vanilla" is a label to avoid? Sounds like you're projecting actually.

You're either into it or you're not. If you are, you're a kinkster, if you're not, you're vanilla.

Those who have a great sex life are generally healthier than those who do not.

If you're going to refute the results of the study, by suggesting that BDSM practioners are not healthier than those who are vanilla, other than your opinion what've you got to back that up?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I equate kink to LARP'ing, or playing Dungeons and Dragons. You do it, you enjoy it within a community of like-minded people. Those who cannot comprehend, understand, or see the appeal ... aren't really any more in the 'right or wrong' than those who enjoy it. Therefore, if you are a nerd or a geek, or a kinkster, let your freak flag fly, and don't worry about those who won't salute it.

Lightning Bolt! - YouTube


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

No. It sounds like this thread is a projection especially coming off the heels of JLD's other "Kink" thread. The reason why some folks suggested it may be an unhealthy thing in that thread is because of the fact of the nature of her relationship with her own father as a child and then her now-relationship with her 'daddy'/husband and her being his "little girl." Perhaps some folks don't see the relationship between those two things but it seems a lot of people did. 

The entire thread post is about how folks who aren't into BDSM or kink being "unhealthier." Which is really ridiculous.

Also, statistics are a funny thing when done in a research studies. Notice the sample size include at least twice the amount of "kinksters" versus "non-kinsters." Use a different sample size and sample set and you will most assuredly get different results. Every time.

_"whether they're more likely to have mental disorders or report rape and abuse compared with the general public."_

"More likely" doesn't mean jack within just one sample set where "kinksters" almost twice as much outnumber the "non-kinksters." 

"Reporting rapes and abuse" is also a crapshoot. Plenty of people, on either side do not report abuse or rape or sexual assaults so that is nil. 

Which "general public" was used in this study? Again, sample sizes vary tremendously. Age, location, demographics all play a part in that.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Deejo said:


> You do it, you enjoy it within a community of like-minded people. Those who cannot comprehend, understand, or see the appeal ... aren't really any more in the 'right or wrong' than those who enjoy it.


Or elude to the fact that an entire group of people is "unhealthier" because they don't practice your sexual habits.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Jelly, I read enough threads around here from 'average guys and girls' whose 'average wives and husbands' want nothing to do with sex. And for all appearances, there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. They live happy productive lives, while their partner suffers in quiet, or not so quiet misery.

Are they healthy? Unhealthy?

So, if you have 2 like-minded people that dig each others company, have all the sex they can stand, but do so while wearing 'Furry' costumes, or while wrapping each other up in duct tape, again I have to ask, are they healthy, or unhealthy?

Where someone is at with their sexuality in my mind says a lot about their psychological health. Of course, one could also make the argument that if I myself and my partner can only find or experience sexual gratification through cutting or harming one another, that is distinctly not healthy. From my point of view, consistently harming your partner by way of rejection is unhealthy as well.

Kink isn't what it used to be. 

Hell, is anal sex kink, or just another item on the sexual menu?

And I don't disagree with you about the nature of the thread, but it's harmless, and in truth ... MOST threads here are about projection.

Penis size thread anyone?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I don't disagree with any of that, Deejo. 

I was just offering a different POV than the OP.

And yes, we need another penis thread. Because there will never be enough of those on TAM!!!!!!!!!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Jellybeans said:


> I don't disagree with any of that, Deejo.
> 
> I was just offering a different POV than the OP.
> 
> And yes, we need another penis thread. Because there will never be enough of those on TAM!!!!!!!!!


I'd play D&D with you anytime ...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

I think BDSMers are understandably sensitive to being told they must have mental or emotional "issues." And I'm not talking about folks who occasionally bring out the cuffs or play with sexual spanking etc. as part of a fuller sexual repertoire. There are people who see BDSM as part of more than their sexual identify--it informs their general outlook on themselves and their relationships. Physical and mental power differentials are clear to them in nearly every aspect of their lives, both in their own experiences and their observations about the experiences of others. The visible and erotic side of BDSM--the leather, the restraints, the instruments to cause pain--are just the tip of the iceberg. 

Knowing that the "way you are" is included in the DSM makes you part of a community, whether you want to be part of it or not. And when you can embrace the "way you are," you tend to want to be a voice for those who haven't found a way to do that for themselves yet. So sure it leads to some "projection." There is something to project _about. _ Will this make groups who feel socially safe and accepted in their identity feel as though they are being marginalized? *Shrug* Maybe. But I think, at the heart of it all is a push-back by BDSMers who are gaining a voice against the traditional and institutionalized stigmatization of their psycho-sexual identity. It's understandable, in my opinion.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> No. It sounds like this thread is a projection especially coming off the *heels of JLD's other "Kink" thread. T*he reason why some folks suggested it may be an unhealthy thing in that thread is because of the fact of the *nature of her relationship with her own father as a child and then her now-relationship with her 'daddy'/husband and her being his "little girl." Perhaps some folks don't see the relationship between those two things but it seems a lot of people did. *
> 
> The entire thread post is about how folks who aren't into BDSM or kink being "unhealthier." Which is really ridiculous.
> 
> ...


...is a personal attack on JLD who is not even the person who started this thread.

...is extending the argument from not one but TWO locked threads into yet another thread.

You post above is clearly against forum rules.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> ...is a personal attack on JLD who is not even the person who started this thread.
> 
> ...is extending the argument from not one but TWO locked threads into yet another thread.
> 
> You post above is clearly against forum rules.


It is not a personal attack. There is nothing "attacking" about what I said. It is discussing another thread in this thread. And adding to the fact that there is a relationship between that thread and this one talking about "how others view things as "unhealthy." 

I was not referring to two locked threads. I was referring to one thread that is relevant to this. Threads are posted for discussion.

I could easily say your post is clearly baiting, Anon. Or trying to pick a fight. Which is against forum rules when I have said nothing to or about you. I don't understand why you seem so upset. 

Plenty of threads are talked about over and over again in different things. Penis threads (which are different threads) were even mentioned by a Mod in this thread.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Deejo said:


> I'd play D&D with you anytime ...


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

For the record, we don't actually enjoy closing threads ... so let's keep it civil.

And let's stay on topic and keep penises out of it ... well, that probably won't work either.

Be nice to each other FFS.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I agree about staying on topic which is what I was trying to do. Anon seems be taking up a special hobby of posting to me in threads in very colorful language lately when she doesn't like what I post which I cannot at all understand. 

But penis threads. Yeah! LOL

Anyway, back on topic.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> I agree about staying on topic which is what I was trying to do. Anon seems be taking up a special hobby of posting to me in threads in very colorful language lately when she doesn't like what I post which I cannot at all understand.
> 
> But penis threads. Yeah! LOL
> 
> Anyway, back on topic.


Now now JB, let's be clear. When you attack JLD I call you on it.

But I never call you out for posting what a size queen you are.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Now now JB, let's be clear. When you attack JLD I call you on it.
> 
> But I never call you out for posting what a size queen you are.


I am not attacking anyone and have already explained that. By the same token, I will also keep calling you out when I feel like you're misconstruing something.

And there is nothing wrong with being a size queen, for those that, um, are.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> i mean, if i say "last night i was having sex with my wife and i the idea struck me to flip her over and take her from behind, like an animal..." and the response is bewilderment or hostility, or a suggestion that i go to therapy to deal with my bestiality issues, i would call it kink too.


A little confused... SO flips me over all the time and "takes me like an animal..." I have never thought of this as "kink" at all! Just a lot of variety, creativity, and incredibly sexy. I thought most people are openminded to different positions.

I guess that's why I don't like labels.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

I just went back and read all the posts in this thread. I was looking for any posters who said, "Because I practice BDSM, I'm healthier than someone who does not."

What I do see are people who say, "Here is an article that refutes that people who identify with BDSM are unhealthy and have a disorder worthy of inclusion in the DSM. I practice BDSM and find this to be a satisfying triumph." 

These folks did not emphasize the "vanillas are LESS happy/healthy" aspect of the article. In fact, several posters, including me, pointed out that those findings could be flawed based on how the samples were chosen. 

I think if you identify with BDSM, you focus on the part of he study that says that BDSMers are capable of being very happy and mentally healthy. THAT is where the affirmation is. 

If you don't identify with BDSM, you might focus on the part of the article that says that the BDSM sample in the study was mentally healthier than the non-BDSM sample. And you have a right to take affront at that. But that is an issue with the study, not the posters here who find satisfaction in the news that including BDSM in the DSM is unfounded and falsely stigmatizing. 

Let's _listen_ to one another, okay?


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> A little confused... SO flips me over all the time and "takes me like an animal..." I have never thought of this as "kink" at all!
> 
> I guess that's why I don't like labels.


Well label me HAPPY and satisfied!


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

happy as a clam said:


> A little confused... SO flips me over all the time and "takes me like an animal..." I have never thought of this as "kink" at all! Just a lot of variety, creativity, and incredibly sexy. I thought most people are openminded to different positions.
> 
> I guess that's why I don't like labels.


thats the whole point. nobody (nowadays) would call doggy style kink. 

but start talking about something outside of what they are used to and people flip out.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> but start talking about something outside of what they are used to and people flip out.


I call that MKINYKIJW syndrome. (My kink is normal, your kink is just weird)


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i really think the only time we are unhealthy is when we feel forced to repress a part of ourselves. its like nice guys who never speak their mind or enforce boundaries and then go through life all bent out of shape. 

i think any time a person is led to believe that something is wrong with them for being who they are, we are setting people up to have real psychological problems.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CharlieParker said:


> I call that MKINYKIJW syndrome. (My kink is normal, your kink is just weird)


Truth!


----------



## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

CharlieParker said:


> I call that MKINYKIJW syndrome. (My kink is normal, your kink is just weird)


I personally like YKINMKBYKIOK (Your Kink Is Not My Kink But Your Kink Is Okay).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> I just went back and read all the posts in this thread. I was looking for any posters who said, "Because I practice BDSM, I'm healthier than someone who does not."


You must have missed the title of the article, then: "Bondage Benefits: *BDSM Practitioners Healthier Than 'Vanilla' People* | LiveScience"


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i found another interesting article. this one deals with the issues of stigma. this part stands out to me...



> Demedicalization removes a major barrier to the creation of outreach, education, anti-stigma campaigns and human services. In 1973, the DSM changed its classification of homosexuality, which had also been categorized as a “sexual disorder,” and much de-stigmatization followed in the wake of that decision (Kilgore et al., 2005). With demedicalization, sex educators can adopt reassuring and demedicalizing language about SM, and outreach efforts are better able to address stigma in society at large.


BDSM Disclosure and Stigma Management: Identifying Opportunities for Sex Education


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> You must have missed the title of the article, then: "Bondage Benefits: *BDSM Practitioners Healthier Than 'Vanilla' People* | LiveScience"


Really?



Jellybeans said:


> *The entire thread post is about how folks who aren't into BDSM or kink being "unhealthier." Which is really ridiculous.*


That's not what the OP is saying at all.



As'laDain said:


> i always assumed as much, but you wouldnt know it with *how often we are told that we suffer some form of phychological illness, and that we need therapy *to find out why we want to engage in an unusual activity.



When did defending yourself get confused with being offensive?


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> You must have missed the title of the article, then: "Bondage Benefits: *BDSM Practitioners Healthier Than 'Vanilla' People* | LiveScience"


No, I didn't miss it. If fact, my first post on this thread deals with he shortcomings of the study cited in that article, and in my post from which you draw my quote, I bring up a second time that the study is flawed for how it drew its samples and that non-BDSM folks are justified in pointing that out. 

The quote that you pull out above was to note that none of the posters had emphasized the part of the study that said the vanilla cohort scored lower. Rather, those posters were emphasizing that BDSM, they sexual style that they identify with, is beginning to shed its stigma as mentally "unhealthy." 

Again, it's important to _listen._ I do not think anyone on this thread is posting in order to emphasize that BDSM lifestyles are better. We all want validation that the consenting lifestyles we choose are just as good as the consenting life styles of others. Including BDSM in the DSM makes some BDSMers feel judged, just as this study makes some non-BDSMers feel judged.

Here, I'll point-blank ask As'lsDain and anyone else here who identifies psycho-sexually with BDSM: Do you think a predilection for BDSM makes people mentally healthier than folks who do not so identify? Or do you think it's the ability to happily and freely and without stigma practice one's sexuality (be it BDSM or something different) that allows for better mental health?


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i think they are posting just to start arguments. i would just ignore them.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> You must have missed the title of the article, then: "Bondage Benefits: *BDSM Practitioners Healthier Than 'Vanilla' People* | LiveScience"




And it's not "starting arguments" to quote the original thread.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

this is from that last article. it highlights why, in my opinion, the stigma needs to go.



> Some respondents reported overtly negative parental reactions. One respondent born in 1986 was “outed” when she was 11 by the counselor she was seeing because of her parents’ divorce:
> 
> "I confessed to her that I liked the idea of somebody tying me up. And I liked the idea of tying somebody else up … I talked to her about it and then regretted it because I came back and I went into my room and a lot of the pictures [for example of pop star Trent Reznor of the band Nine Inch Nails in bondage] were taken off the wall. And I turned to my dad, like, “Where did a lot of my posters go?” And he goes, “You know why you can't have them. And I'm not going to explain it to you.” And I asked, “Did she say something to you, or did you guys talk about me?” Which makes me still feel very uncomfortable to this day. Because she had no right; what I told her was in confidence."
> 
> ...


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Sure, ignore us. We're just inferior vanilla sexed peons anyways.

You start a post with an article that basically calls everyone who doesn't subscribe to your way of thinking 'unhealthy', then accuse US of stirring the pot??


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> i found another interesting article. this one deals with the issues of stigma. this part stands out to me...


Thanks As'laDain, looking forward to reading this one as well. Are you just Googling for articles, or do have a treasure trove of links to share? 

I think stigma--real or perceived--is a stumbling block to self-acceptance, happiness, and mental health, be it in society at large, or in a smaller community (a family, a sub-culture, or even right here on TAM.)


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Sure, ignore us. We're just inferior vanilla sexed peons anyways.
> 
> You start a post with an article that basically calls everyone who doesn't subscribe to your way of thinking 'unhealthy', then accuse US of stirring the pot??


I'm sorry did you say something? It's so hard to read vanilla colored words...lack of spice and interesting things and all...


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Thanks As'laDain, looking forward to reading this one as well. Are you just Googling for articles, or do have a treasure trove of links to share?
> 
> I think stigma--real or perceived--is a stumbling block to self-acceptance, happiness, and mental health, be it in society at large, or in a smaller community (a family, a sub-culture, or even right here on TAM.)


for the most part im just googling articles. there are a lot of articles i have already read, but not all of them are completely relevant. 

one topic that i am actually quite interested in is the psychological effects of stigmatization. 

i think its like a self fulfilling prophecy.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm sorry did you say something? It's so hard to read vanilla colored words...lack of spice and interesting things and all...


AP, do I have to get out the paddle again?


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Thanks As'laDain, looking forward to reading this one as well. Are you just Googling for articles, or do have a treasure trove of links to share?
> 
> I think stigma--real or perceived--is a stumbling block to self-acceptance, happiness, and mental health, be it in society at large, or in a smaller community (a family, a sub-culture, or even right here on TAM.)


De stigmatizing sex in general is what is needed. 

I've seen lots of posts from both men and women about being caught masturbating, also lots of posts from parents about how to handle catching a child masturbating.

Sex in general needs to be accepted as healthy and normal and good.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> AP, do I have to get out the paddle again?


Promises promises!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

What I don't understand is what you're hoping to gain from posting this stuff. You have a group that's private to discuss all this amongst yourselves, which seems to be what you want to do. Why not just post it there and avoid the debate that you KNOW is going to ensue when you put yourselves up on a pedestal like you do.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> De stigmatizing sex in general is what is needed.
> 
> I've seen lots of posts from both men and women about being caught masturbating, also lots of posts from parents about how to handle catching a child masturbating.
> 
> Sex in general needs to be accepted as healthy and normal and good.


Exactly! People somehow want to view sexuality as this taboo topic we should never talk about...but then why have a specific section on this forum that talks about "Sex In Marriage"? 

So it's okay to speak about missionary and other "society acceptable" sex, but nothing else? Okay then, let's toss out every thread that deals with toys or costumes or roleplaying...because let's face it, that can be seriously construed as kink...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Since no one can read what I'm typing, I know this won't make any difference, but what you're not acknowledging is that it's the tone of superiority associated with these posts that gets people's back up. I couldn't care less what kind of kink you practice, but i do care when I'm called inferior because I don't subscribe to it. Can you see the difference there?

Now go ahead and proclaim how you never did anything of the sort


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

awesome, i found the original research paper that was cited in my first link.


http://www.andreaswismeijer.nl/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/BDSM_JSM_Wismeijer_van-Assen.pdf


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> What I don't understand is what you're hoping to gain from posting this stuff. You have a group that's private to discuss all this amongst yourselves, which seems to be what you want to do. Why not just post it there and avoid the debate that you KNOW is going to ensue when you put yourselves up on a pedestal like you do.


So you feel threatened when kink comes out of the closet? 

Sounds a lot like the reasons why kink does need to come out of the closet.

We're here!
We're queer! (As in odd or strange)
Get over it!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Hope1964 said:
> 
> 
> > Since no one can read what I'm typing, I know this won't make any difference, but *what you're not acknowledging is that it's the tone of superiority associated with these posts that gets people's back up. * I couldn't care less what kind of kink you practice, but i do care when I'm called inferior because I don't subscribe to it. Can you see the difference there?
> ...


Like I say, no one can actually read what I'm posting.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Happily in the grey area between vanilla and kink.It seems useless to try to define your sex life with little phrases and terms to be studied by others. My imagination can be kink and but my actions are in the middle ground.

Everything has an unhealthy extreme whether you're so vanilla you can't connect with anyone sexually or whether you're so "kink" that you do things that put your body in harm's way.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Yes, that's it. Folks are "threatened/insecure/scared/less compassionate/understanding" because they don't practice certain sexual habits. 

And Hope, I don't even see this as a "debate." Can't debate or discuss anything when those who question the validity of a research study or a topic are told they are only starting arguments. 

If anything, the responses to anyone who posts a different POV have been very enlightening.

I got nothing else.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Like I say, no one can actually read what I'm posting.


I can.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Happily in the grey area between vanilla and kink.It seems useless to try to define your sex life with little phrases and terms to be studied by others. My imagination can be kink and but my actions are in the middle ground.
> 
> Everything has an unhealthy extreme whether you're so vanilla you can't connect with anyone sexually or whether you're so "kink" that you do things that put your body in harm's way.


:iagree:

The newest DSM (DSM-V, or Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th edition), is coming out soon. A lot of news articles have been written on a variety of issues, but the ones that pertain to this thread are in regards to how they are now classifying BDSM and other "kink" related terms/topics. They (as in the doctors and counselors) have decided that it isn't a mental disorder if "kink" and BDSM is practiced between two CONSENTING adults. It only becomes a mental health issue when one of the people involved feels shame or guilt or an overwhelming sense of "I don't like feeling this way"...then it's an issue to be addressed by counselors with it's own DSM listing.

So in all fairness, it's becoming more and more like homosexuality which was removed between the 3rd and 4th editions of the DSM.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

I like open discussion of BDSM and kink in general because I find the psychology AND the biology behind sexuality fascinating.

Why are we the way we are? How does that help or hinder in our relationships? How can differences in sexual styles be negotiated in marriages? How does embracing one's kink versus trying to deny or minimize it affect one's happiness--both with one's self, and in one's marriage?

I do find it frustrating that threads like this often devolve into hurt feelings and defensiveness. I don't see anyone being superior here; rather I see some folks showing confidence in their identities and celebrating a widening acceptance of those identities in society at large. 

I don't think Asla'Dain (or anyone else on this thread) means to hurt the feelings of people who do not identify with BDSM or other kinks. For some people, embracing a kink (for themselves or for the sake of their spouse) has been life-altering in the improvements made to the individuals and to the marriage. Those ARE things to crow about! And there IS a desire to share our successes and our triumphs. If doing so helps others who are struggling with similar issues, all the better. But no one can make you feel inferior simply by being happy about who they are, and proclaiming it to the world. 

Yes, the article points out that *in the samples in the study*, the BDSM group scores higher in terms of happiness, but again, put that aside and listen to what the actual individuals who are posting here are saying. They are happy with themselves--not because they compare themselves to "vanilla" people and feel superior, but because *finally* the mental health community isn't equating their sexual style with mental illness! 

CHOOSE to be happy, peeps! CHOOSE to see the good in others! CHOOSE to see the good in yourselves! 

Now, I'm off to sing Kumbaya all by myself . . .


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Everything has an unhealthy extreme whether you're so vanilla you can't connect with anyone sexually or whether you're so "kink" that you do things that put your body in harm's way.


very true.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

*smh* All that needed to be said, from the very beginning, was "Hey, I don't necessarily think those of us who practice BDSM are healthier than those who do not, but this article is helpful to see that we aren't as bad as society wants to believe." And link the article, perhaps even doing it in such a way that it doesn't have that bright light shining on it, saying "BDM people are healthier!"... Because, I would hope those who practice it do recognize that THAT statement isn't necessarily true. And this whole argument/debate could have been avoided. But, when an argument is presented, saying "I'm better" or "I'm healthier", no matter the subect, SOMEONE is going to get pissed off, and an argument ensues. 

So.... which was the initial purpose of this thread, again? To raise BDSM above all others, or to simply show that one isn't necessarily a bad person just because he/she does it? FWIW, BDSM is not something I would ever consent to try. It's not because I don't trust my husband. I have no interest in whips, chains, handcuffs, and any of the other things involved in BDSM. It doesn't mesh with my personality. If it works for someone else, knock yourself out (not literally, unless that's your thing lol), but you know what I mean. And, really, that's the argument from some others here... why post something that, essentially, says "I'm better than you, this article says so"? (And that's based on reading the title, not the article. Just the excerpts quoted here are enough for me to say "no thanks" to reading the actual article.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Like I say, no one can actually read what I'm posting.


It's ok. I suspect the same about mine, too.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Akinaura said:


> :iagree:
> 
> The newest DSM (DSM-V, or Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th edition), is coming out soon. A lot of news articles have been written on a variety of issues, but the ones that pertain to this thread are in regards to how they are now classifying BDSM and other "kink" related terms/topics. They (as in the doctors and counselors) have decided that it isn't a mental disorder if "kink" and BDSM is practiced between two CONSENTING adults. It only becomes a mental health issue when one of the people involved feels shame or guilt or an overwhelming sense of "I don't like feeling this way"...then it's an issue to be addressed by counselors with it's own DSM listing.
> 
> So in all fairness, it's becoming more and more like homosexuality which was removed between the 3rd and 4th editions of the DSM.


I think the DSM is a fascinating window into the social and political and scientific evolution of our society. If I were in still in school, I'd do my best to work it into a thesis so I could take a closer look--though I'm betting it's been done.


----------



## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Since no one can read what I'm typing, I know this won't make any difference, but what you're not acknowledging is that it's the tone of superiority associated with these posts that gets people's back up. I couldn't care less what kind of kink you practice, but i do care when I'm called inferior because I don't subscribe to it. Can you see the difference there?
> 
> Now go ahead and proclaim how you never did anything of the sort


(((HUGS)))

You do know that f'ing with your head is all part of the deal. Right? That dominating physically is only one aspect. The real deal has to do with the mind.


fyi

The movie The General's Daughter comes to mind but there must be all sorts of other examples. Being ex military I have seen more than many on this subject. Military life is very tough on relationships as it is.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> (((HUGS)))
> 
> You do know that f'ing with your head is all part of the deal. Right? That dominating physically is only one aspect. *The real deal has to do with the mind.*


Totally agree with this.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> So.... which was the initial purpose of this thread, again? To raise BDSM above all others, or to simply show that one isn't necessarily a bad person just because he/she does it? FWIW, BDSM is not something I would ever consent to try. It's not because I don't trust my husband. I have no interest in whips, chains, handcuffs, and any of the other things involved in BDSM. It doesn't mesh with my personality.


DH feels this way too. His biggest item that could be called kink is his obsession w/my butt. LOL

He's not into anything else. It's a special occasion to get him to slap my ass.  
I dunno,I kinda like it that way though bc that makes it extra thrilling when he does get a wild notion to do something kinky. If he was like that all the time I imagine it wouldn't be as exciting to see him reveal other layers once in a blue moon.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i have to admit one thing about BDSM. since i started practicing it, i have started dealing with issues more readily. so has my wife.


the part im interested in is the why? is it that i feel more comfortable with who i am and my wife feels more comfortable with who she is?
is it because i am more relaxed in general? the relaxation comes from knowing that i dont feel like i am walking on egg shells all the time. i started meeting my wifes needs and she started finding me more attractive. everything else started to fall into place. 

im less afraid of opening up now. 
the part that irritates me is that i waited so long. it took me years to finally accept that my wife needs this, and then accept that its ok for me to give it to her.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I think the DSM is a fascinating window into the social and political and scientific evolution of our society.



More political than anything else actually 

The DSM is driven as much by insurance / payer and legal concerns than by pure science or health care. 

It's like designing a car based only on Insurance company claims and findings.

Despite it's size the DSM does not spend an awful amount of space on any specific condition. And that the criteria change. And that there is no corroboration between self reported, observed, and hard data for any specific condition.


----------



## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> DH feels this way too. His biggest item that could be called kink is his obsession w/my butt. LOL
> 
> He's not into anything else. It's a special occasion to get him to slap my ass.
> I dunno,I kinda like it that way though bc that makes it extra thrilling when he does get a wild notion to do something kinky. If he was like that all the time I imagine it wouldn't be as exciting to see him reveal other layers once in a blue moon.


Scarlet, 

Please start a new thread about your butt.

Thank You
Jim


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

One thing I've noticed about happy, fulfilled BDSMers is that they tend to be highly self-aware. They know their own minds. They have very little self-doubt when it comes to their identities. They celebrate it, they look for communities. 

The question is: is this sense of confidence bred by the "us against them" camaraderie, or is there something innately different about how people who associate power differentials with sexual satisfaction perceive the world? 

Personally, I think it's a little of both. 

I do think our sexual selves inform our social selves--Entropy, you brought this up in another thread, and it's something I agree with. I think many people either don't recognize this, or don't want to. But SEX--come on! It's been around since we were singled celled organisms! :rofl: It is THE REASON those little cells mingled in the first place! SEX *is* SOCIETY!


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Scarlet,
> 
> Please start a new thread about your butt.
> 
> ...


 
you're silly


----------



## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> you're silly


Much of the time. Yes.

But you will never know if this was a serious request or not.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Scarlet,
> 
> Please start a new thread about your butt.
> 
> ...


:lol:
be sure to include some visual aides


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

There is a certain power that comes with accepting the things that turn you on as part of what makes you who you are. 
It's freeing. I think it gives you the courage to dive into any underlying emotional issues you have and focus on resolving them more readily bc you have a new layer of sexual confidence to envelop you. Sex is healing and comforting. Sex is peace for your mind and body after a sh*t day. 
Holding back part of your sexual personality takes away from your confidence and power. It turns those healing comforting moments into the usual practice of emotional restraint so many of us employ in our every day worlds to get through the day.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> i have to admit one thing about BDSM. since i started practicing it, i have started dealing with issues more readily. so has my wife.
> 
> 
> the part im interested in is the why? is it that i feel more comfortable with who i am and my wife feels more comfortable with who she is?
> ...


Don't feel bad Asla'Dain . . . it took me years to fully realize it about myself. And to be truthful, I don't think I needed it earlier in my relationship like I need it now. Things evolve, people change. Finding a way to fit it into my marriage has been so much fun--because my husband, like you, came to see the benefit to HIM and to US. BDSM at the end of the day is just a negotiated power exchange. This thing I call D/s with my husband? I bet there a plenty of folks on TAM who would look at it and be like, "wtf? They call that D/s? That's what we do every day!" The thing is, this dynamic is one that we mindfully adopted to deal with issues we could not otherwise happily negotiate. 

Yes, for many BDMSers there is also the sexual side of it and yes there is the pain side of it -but all point back to identifying what we NEED in order to be happy, and finding a way to execute that happiness with a combination of physical and emotional behaviors. 

CAN it be more organic than that?--sure it can. But for a lot of people it is highly deliberate, and for a lot of people therein lies the reward.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> :lol:
> be sure to include some visual aides


fairly certain that happened when I was posting outfits in the "what are you wearing" thread


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> There is a certain power that comes with accepting the things that turn you on as part of what makes you who you are.
> It's freeing. I think it gives you the courage to dive into any underlying emotional issues you have and focus on resolving them more readily bc you have a new layer of sexual confidence to envelop you. Sex is healing and comforting. Sex is peace for your mind and body after a sh*t day.
> Holding back part of your sexual personality takes away from your confidence and power. It turns those healing comforting moments into the usual practice of emotional restraint so many of us employ in our every day worlds to get through the day.


:iagree:

My goodness, you're on a roll today! I love how you are able to express something that is sometimes hard for me to clearly state. Thank you for that!

For me, it is freeing. I'm not hiding from my husband any more. I'm not giving out duty sex once a month (poor guy survived this for 3 years!). Every day I feel more and more confident about my own decisions and my self esteem has been shooting through the roof lately!

It's even starting to spread to other areas of my life. Since I'm not allowing my husband to make me feel like he's steam-rolled over me, I can tell others "The buck stops here," in regards to other areas I was feeling "steam-rolled" over.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Akinaura said:


> :iagree:
> 
> My goodness, you're on a roll today! I love how you are able to express something that is sometimes hard for me to clearly state. Thank you for that!
> 
> ...


Happy to help You're very welcome!

It changes your whole world when you aren't hiding your desires in some shameful back corner of your mind. it's even more incredible when your partner shows they were worthy of your trust in sharing these things with them. 

That applies to all sexual relationships,not just bdsm.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> More political than anything else actually
> 
> The DSM is driven as much by insurance / payer and legal concerns than by pure science or health care.
> 
> It's like designing a car based only on Insurance company claims and findings.


Seriously, I can imagine the fist-bumping going on in the pharmaceutical world with every new addition. A nurse practitioner friend of mind said that "grief" was being added to the DSM V. 

Why not add "joy?" In extreme doses, or when practiced in the company of those who are deficient, it, too, can be debilitating and call for calming meds.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> There is a certain power that comes with accepting the things that turn you on as part of what makes you who you are.
> It's freeing. I think it gives you the courage to dive into any underlying emotional issues you have and focus on resolving them more readily bc you have a new layer of sexual confidence to envelop you. Sex is healing and comforting. Sex is peace for your mind and body after a sh*t day.
> Holding back part of your sexual personality takes away from your confidence and power. It turns those healing comforting moments into the usual practice of emotional restraint so many of us employ in our every day worlds to get through the day.


:iagree:

This is absolutely spot on!

Learning to accept our sexual selves is harder on some than it is on others. Freeing our minds from the constraints imposed upon us by well meaning parents and religious clerics takes a bit of work and for others it can take a lot of work.

Than going onto the next step of accepting our "out of the ordinary" sexual/erotic box is that much easier.

This is why the article made complete sense to me. People who are into and choose BDSM as a lifestyle have had to put some serious though and work into accepting themselves and loving themselves even though those around us would rather we get more therapy to cure us of our dangerous risk taking past times or "daddy/mommy" issues.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> People who are into and choose BDSM as a lifestyle have had to put some serious though and work into accepting themselves and loving themselves even though those around us would rather we get more therapy to cure us of our dangerous risk taking past times or "daddy/mommy" issues.


The daddy/mommy thing will always worry me when it gets to what I personally consider an unhealthy extreme.My knee jerk is to always recommend diving into that with a well versed therapist.Of course,that's just my view on it and if people are truly happy with their extreme they can tell me to go take a walk.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> The daddy/mommy thing will always worry me when it gets to what I personally consider an unhealthy extreme.My knee jerk is to always recommend diving into that with a well versed therapist.Of course,that's just my view on it and if people are truly happy with their extreme they can tell me to go take a walk.


:iagree:

I can't remember where I heard or read this, but it's a paraphrase of something I try to live my life by: "Everything in moderation."

I love how your initial reaction is to suggest therapy in conjunction with the new idea, especially if it seems an unhealthy extreme to you (I mean this in a non-sarcastic sense!). I think this is the best advice you could actually give someone, sense it really focuses on the part of making the person learn to become comfortable with themselves. It really does sound like a really secure place to start any kind of marriage talk or relationship talk.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

moderation and extreme are incredibly subjective...


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> moderation and extreme are incredibly subjective...


of course which is why all a person can do is make suggestions and if the suggestions aren't accepted...oh well! lol 

I refuse to be like my mother. "well if you don't take my advice I want nothing to do with you!!"


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Allowing or encouraging your husband or wife to make all the decisions can be seen as extreme by a lot of people. When we fall into as a result of some passive aggressive covert contract arrangement it is typically a disaster. But when we decide to formalize and structurize the relationship around this dynamic it tends to be extraordinarily healthy, actually.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm sorry did you say something? It's so hard to read vanilla colored words...lack of spice and interesting things and all...


:rofl:


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This is absolutely spot on!
> 
> Learning to accept our sexual selves is harder on some than it is on others. Freeing our minds from the constraints imposed upon us by well meaning parents and religious clerics takes a bit of work and for others it can take a lot of work.


The older I get, the more grateful I become to my parents for not raising me as part of any institutional belief system--religious, social, political or otherwise. 

Yeah, I had to figure a lot of things out for myself when I left home for college, but having the chance to evaluate all my experiences without the benefit OR the hindrance of preconceived beliefs has proven, time and again, to have been a good thing for me. I've struggled many times, I've made mistakes . . . but my triumphs and my failures have been mine and mine alone. I tend to put a lot less credence in what mainstream society thinks of my choices. I'm quite comfortable as a freak. In fact, I'm one who'd go around pointing out, "Lookee, lookee, I'm in the DSM-5!" 

Granted, I have the benefit of a large and loving family, and the benefit of a spouse who embraces the darkest part of me. I don't discount nor devalue those luxuries.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> The older I get, the more grateful I become to my parents for not raising me as part of any institutional belief system--religious, social, political or otherwise.
> 
> Yeah, I had to figure a lot of things out for myself when I left home for college, but having the chance to evaluate all my experiences without the benefit OR the hindrance of preconceived beliefs has proven, time and again, to have been a good thing for me. I've struggled many times, I've made mistakes . . . but my triumphs and my failures have been mine and mine alone. I tend to put a lot less credence in what mainstream society thinks of my choices. I'm quite comfortable as a freak. In fact, I'm one who'd go around pointing out, "Lookee, lookee, I'm in the DSM-5!"
> 
> Granted, I have the benefit of a large and loving family, and the benefit of a spouse who embraces the darkest part of me. I don't discount nor devalue those luxuries.


We've raised our kids without religion, too. Dh and I grew up Catholic, and while there are some good parts to that, I have had to shed a lot of it.

Dd19 told me recently how glad she is she grew up without religion, and how she thinks it has helped her have an open mind.

I guess I just wasn't talented enough to figure out how to give the kids the good parts of religion while avoiding the bad, so it was easier to avoid it altogether.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

The DSM is like the family tree in my family.

"Oh on this page we have uncle George, on his up days he was a blast! Over here is my grandmother who was the first woman to carry a bull horn!"


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

jld said:


> I guess I just wasn't talented enough to figure out how to give the kids the good parts of religion while avoiding the bad, so it was easier to avoid it altogether.


Well, there are lots of ways to teach values--including religion. You do what works best for you and your family.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Over here is my grandmother who was the first woman to carry a bull horn!"



I need to create an entry to DSM-VI like some spectrum disorder related to talking loudly. My wife has that (too). You tell her something she disagrees with and it's an instant 20 dB gain, bullhorn style.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> This is why the article made complete sense to me. People who are into and choose BDSM as a lifestyle have had to put some serious though and work into accepting themselves and loving themselves even though those around us would rather we get more therapy to cure us of our dangerous risk taking past times or "daddy/mommy" issues.


...this makes me want to see more studies with wider samples.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> What I don't understand is what you're hoping to gain from posting this stuff. You have a group that's private to discuss all this amongst yourselves, which seems to be what you want to do. Why not just post it there and avoid the debate that you KNOW is going to ensue when you put yourselves up on a pedestal like you do.


Wow! Swingers, 3-somes, open marriages, anal sex lovers, etc. And this is the first group to be told to get back in the closet. Interesting ...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

lol, dont you love how that works?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

committed4ever said:


> Wow! Swingers, 3-somes, open marriages, anal sex lovers, etc. And this is the first group to be told to get back in the closet. Interesting ...


Dungeon.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

committed4ever said:


> Wow! Swingers, 3-somes, open marriages, anal sex lovers, etc. And this is the first group to be told to get back in the closet. Interesting ...


Actually, no. All of those you listed have, at some point, been told the same thing (more or less) on here. MANY times over. Anal sex: osters say "exit only", and things of that nature. Swinging/3-somes/open marriage: you cannot honestly say you haven't seen threads speaking AGAINST those things on here. The main thing that Hope was talking about was the "healthier" part of the article title, and honestly, not sure why it couldn't have been worded as I wrote. One isn't necessarily healthier than the other, but there's nothing wrong with just saying "hey, look, we're not as weird as people think!" Oh, well. As with pretty much every thread on here, arguments flare up.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

the part i find ironic is that it is acceptable to call into question the mental health of kinksters but not acceptable to say that we are healthier. 

but thats the stigma for you. the idea that we must be broken, and of course the only thing you can do with someone who is broken is fix them.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> Dungeon.


Dungeon happens to be my favorite word--not because of anything to do with BDSM, but just because it's so onomatopoetic.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Dungeon happens to be my favorite word--not because of anything to do with BDSM, but just because it's so *onomatopoetic*.


onomatopoetic is now my new favorite word.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> Dungeon happens to be my favorite word--not because of anything to do with BDSM, but just because it's so onomatopoetic.


It was a soft toss. 

Oh wait ... that sounds sad.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> It was a soft toss.
> 
> Oh wait ...


eh?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> the part i find ironic is that it is acceptable to call into question the mental health of kinksters but not acceptable to say that we are healthier.


What I have seen, as far as some of that is concerned, is when one had a "bad day" (or days, as I recall). SOME of the things written were strange. And where she was coming from, it DID seem things were off. Unfortunately, whether it's "off" or not, resolved or not, people don't forget those kinds of things. Certain posts stick out in our minds. There are a few who stand out to me, but not kink related. 

The whole D/s thing does seem strange, TO ME, when it is about sex. I cannot call my husband "Master" because he is not. And I am not a "slave". As for the rest, like deferring to him when big decisions are made, I do, for the most part. It's only in the last few years, since he has been mentally/psychologically unable to do so very well, that I have taken charge. But as he is able, he makes the decisions. 

As I said previously, BDSM is not something I could do. Rough sex, in any form, does not appeal to me. Not because I don't trust him, but because I bruise easily, and I can't tolerate pain very well. He's attempted to spank a few times, and it wasn't very hard, but it nearly brought me to tears because it hurt. No, there was no abuse in my early years. It's just how I am. I can handle the pain of recovering from surgeries, but when it comes to sex, pain, in any sense, is a turn off. 

So, does that mean your lifestyle choice is weird to me? Yes. Do I think that means you are a bad person? No. Do I think I am healthier than you? No. Do I think you are healthier than I? No. 



As'laDain said:


> but thats the stigma for you. the idea that we must be broken, and of course the only thing you can do with someone who is broken is fix them.


My husband is broken. He needs to be fixed. That's why he's seeing his doctors. Has nothing to do with any sort of kink.

But if you like BDSM, knock yourself out (or let your partner do it?)... it's doesn't mean you're broken. It means you're different.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> eh?


A soft toss is something that is just too easy.
When you pitch to a young child you toss the ball very softly so they can hit it.

But in SIM a soft toss just sounds very limp.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> What I have seen, as far as some of that is concerned, is when one had a "bad day" (or days, as I recall). SOME of the things written were strange. And where she was coming from, it DID seem things were off. Unfortunately, whether it's "off" or not, resolved or not, people don't forget those kinds of things. Certain posts stick out in our minds. There are a few who stand out to me, but not kink related.
> 
> The whole D/s thing does seem strange, TO ME, when it is about sex. I cannot call my husband "Master" because he is not. And I am not a "slave". As for the rest, like deferring to him when big decisions are made, I do, for the most part. It's only in the last few years, since he has been mentally/psychologically unable to do so very well, that I have taken charge. But as he is able, he makes the decisions.
> 
> ...



:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:

i love civil discussions.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> What I have seen, as far as some of that is concerned, is when one had a "bad day" (or days, as I recall). SOME of the things written were strange. And where she was coming from, it DID seem things were off. Unfortunately, whether it's "off" or not, resolved or not, people don't forget those kinds of things. Certain posts stick out in our minds. There are a few who stand out to me, but not kink related.
> 
> The whole D/s thing does seem strange, TO ME, when it is about sex. I cannot call my husband "Master" because he is not. And I am not a "slave". As for the rest, like deferring to him when big decisions are made, I do, for the most part. It's only in the last few years, since he has been mentally/psychologically unable to do so very well, that I have taken charge. But as he is able, he makes the decisions.
> 
> ...


When I say I am broken I get told you can't fix stupid.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:
> 
> i love civil discussions.


I try.....




Some people's patience.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> A soft toss is something that is just too easy.
> When you pitch to a young child you toss the ball very softly so they can hit it.
> 
> But in SIM a soft toss just sounds very limp.


Yes, no soft tosses allowed in SIM!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Training Penny

Positive re-enforcement can work.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> When I say I am broken I get told you can't fix stupid.


Heh. My dad says that a lot.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i need some more onomatopoetic words. i want to write some onomatopoetry. 

what? onomatopoetry isnt a word? what gives?!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> i need some more onomatopoetic words. i want to write some onomatopoetry.
> 
> what? onomatopoetry isnt a word? what gives?!



Let me write some poetry for the group.

achoo ahem bang bang
bash bam
bark bark
bawl beep beep beep
belch blab blare blurt
boing boing boing boink
bonk bong boo
boo-hoo

I'll work on the rhyme later


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

john117 said:


> Let me write some poetry for the group.
> 
> achoo ahem bang bang
> bash bam
> ...


:lol:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Best post of the day award goes to john for his poem on post number 140.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

yes...something like that... :rofl:

ETA: this is something my wife and i found while we were looking up lolita style dresses. i find it hilarious.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

john117 said:


> Let me write some poetry for the group.
> 
> achoo ahem bang bang
> bash bam
> ...


Oh? Is this that "dubstep" that supposedly the latest musical trend? :rofl:


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Best post of the day award goes to john for his poem on post number 140.


I'll reserve judgment until the rhymes are edited in.

Very clever John!


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i just found out that my little akinaura is in to tie dye. I LOVE TIE DYE.


why on earth have we not had this discussion before? im gonna have to do something about that...


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