# Violence against women.



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Just noticed that today is the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women.

I just find it rather sad that in this day and age we even have or need an International day of that type.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> Just noticed that today is the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women.
> 
> I just find it rather sad that in this day and age we even have or need an International day of that type.


I completely agree with you on that. A day to commemorate violence against women? To raise awareness, and yet the core issue here; the men that are the abusers, have no shame or conscience. This day isn't for *their* awareness. They don't care.

Our society, as a whole, has gotten more violent. People don't care about others as much as they used to. Children aren't been raised with a moral conscience of right or wrong. There are always exceptions. There are always good people. But, as a whole, just reading the news indicates the deterioration of common courtesy and concern for one's fellow man.

Awareness is good. But addressing the issue with solutions is more constructive. Why is it that the abused victim has to leave the abuser? Why is it not standard for those abusers to be forced to face consequences? To be shunned by society? To be publicly shamed? Why is it that the victim feels the shame and not the abuser? 

It's tragic to read of an abused person who felt the need to hide their circumstances to prevent further abuse for years. Their sense of self-worth being damaged and to feel that the abuser has power over them. Is there some sort of message "out there" that society allows the abuser to flourish unchecked?

I don't pretend to have the answers. It's like bullying. At some point in time, we really need to address the core issue, and it isn't the victim. It's to stop anyone even thinking about abusing another human being and to have such consequences that the abuser is unable to act on their thoughts. Consequences. There doesn't seem to be the right incentives in place to make them stop.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Although violence against women is more common, violence against men is on the increase.

I declare this a Violence Against All day.


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## omega (Aug 2, 2011)

Yes, and I am wearing orange today in recognition. I have experienced gender-motivated violence as have SO MANY other women. I do not have any answers.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> Awareness is good. But addressing the issue with solutions is more constructive. Why is it that the abused victim has to leave the abuser? Why is it not standard for those abusers to be forced to face consequences? To be shunned by society? To be publicly shamed? Why is it that the victim feels the shame and not the abuser?
> 
> It's tragic to read of an abused person who felt the need to hide their circumstances to prevent further abuse for years. Their sense of self-worth being damaged and to feel that the abuser has power over them. Is there some sort of message "out there" that society allows the abuser to flourish unchecked?


The fall out of domestic violence can be financially crippling for victims and, at least in part, is often funded by the taxpayer. I would like to see more civil compensation claims being made by victims, and governments slapping hefty fines on perpetrators.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Honor killings are barely against the law in the UK and no one wants to point at the Islamic elephant in the room. Oh well.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

survivorwife said:


> Our society, as a whole, has gotten more violent.


Actually, violent crime rates are at historic lows.



> Why is it not standard for those abusers to be forced to face consequences? To be shunned by society? To be publicly shamed? Why is it that the victim feels the shame and not the abuser?


Actually, in many states, any time police are called to investigate a suspected incident of domestic violence, there is no investigation at all. By statute, the man is arrested. Even if he was the victim of the abuse. Any men accused of abuse have lost the right to the presumption of innocence.

And false allegations of abuse won't be prosecuted because officials don't want to discourage other women from making future accusations of abuse.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Cosmos said:


> Although violence against women is more common, violence against men is on the increase.
> 
> I declare this a Violence Against All day.


Actually, incidents rates for minor violence are approximately equal between men and women. But for severe violence, more men are victims than women.

And, sadly, men who are victims have nowhere to turn. Many domestic abuse shelters only help women and will turn men away. Police and prosecutors aren't equipped to handle women abusers. Men are automatically presumed guilty. They are pretty much on their own.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Here are the facts and statistics for the UK alone:-

_



(12/04/2011)

"Domestic violence is serious and pernicious. It ruins lives, breaks up families and has a lasting impact. It is criminal. And it has been with us for a very long time. Yet it is only in the last ten years that it has been taken seriously as a criminal justice issue. Before that the vast majority of cases were brushed under the carpet with the refrain "it's just a domestic".

Some good progress has now undoubtedly been made since those administering criminal justice woke up to domestic violence and I will touch on some aspects of that progress later. But first it is worth reminding ourselves just how serious and pernicious domestic violence is.

Nearly 1 million women experience at least one incident of domestic abuse each year (2009/10 British Crime Survey data:http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb1210.pdf as reported in latest cross-government VAWG strategy http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/crime/call-end-violence-women-girls/vawg-paper?view=Binary)

At least 750,000 children a year witness domestic violence (DoH, (2002) Women's Mental Health : Into the Mainstream, accessed at: [ARCHIVED CONTENT] Women's Mental Health : Into the Mainstream : Department of Health - Consultations p.16)

Two women are killed each week by their partner or ex-partner (Womens Aid (March 2011) accessed at: Statistics: how common is domestic violence? - Women's Aid)

54 per cent of women victims of serious sexual assault were assaulted by their partner or ex-partner (Stern, (2010) The Stern Review p.9 accessed at http://www.equalities.gov.uk/pdf/Stern_Review_of_Rape_Reporting_1FINAL.pdf )

Victims of domestic violence are more likely to experience repeat victimisation than victims of any other types of crime(British Crime Survey Reports)

76 per cent of all DV incidents are repeat (Flatley, Kershaw, Smith, Chaplin and Moon (July 2010) BCS - Crime in England and Wales 2009/10 , Home Office, accessed at http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb1210.pdf p24)

Women experience an average of 35 incidents of domestic violence before reporting an incident to the police (Yearnshaw 1997, accessed at http://safer.sthelens.gov.uk/SITEMANV2/publications/40/0901316LeafletsforDVVictims_3.pdf)

19 per cent of women have experienced stalking since the age of 16 (Smith (Ed.), Coleman, Eder and Hall (January 2011) Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2009/10 Supplementary Volume 2 to Crime in England and Wales 2009/10, Home Office accessed at http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs11/hosb0111.pdf)

These statistics are shocking and demonstrate that women are still more at risk of violent crime at home than anywhere else.

What then have we done? How far have we got? And what else is needed?"

Click to expand...

_Domestic Violence: the facts, the issues, the future - Speech by the Director of Public Prosecutions, Keir Starmer QC


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Runs like Dog said:


> Honor killings are barely against the law in the UK and no one wants to point at the Islamic elephant in the room. Oh well.


There are many such elephants around the world. WHO statistics show

- 71% of women in Ethiopia reported physical and/or sexual violence from an intimate partner
-the first sexual experience for many women is forced (17% in Tanzania, 24% in Peru, 30% in Bangladesh
-combined intimate partner and non-partner sexual violence against women is 46% in Africa, 36% in the Americas, 27% in Europe, 40% in Southeast Asia
-worldwide 35% of women have experienced sexual violence


And this is just what is reported. Other UN stats show that in some countries, the proportion of wives that think their husbands are completely justified in beating them for burning the food, (60% in Jordan and Ethiopia), refusing to have sex(75% in Mali), or going out without telling the husband (80% in Zambia, 75% in Guinea) is shockingly high.


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## ntamph (Apr 23, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> Honor killings are barely against the law in the UK and no one wants to point at the Islamic elephant in the room. Oh well.


Is it true that in parts of France and Holland even non-Muslim women must cover their heads when walking through certain areas in order to avoid any problems?


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

My daddy told me when I was a teenager that if I ever laid a hand on a women ( violence) he would beat my azz, and he meant it.

I remember he would get mad at my mom and go out to the barn and start working on something cussing under his breath.

I sure miss him. He was an awesome father.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

25+ something years ago here in the U.S, I had rope marks around my neck from my former live in boyfriend. He said there is only one way a woman leaves him.....dead. I struggled and stabbed him.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> 20 something years ago here in the U.S, I had rope marks around my neck from my former live in lover. He after cheating on me repeatedly and me saying I was leaving him gave me them.


A survivor of an abusive lunatic here, too, TRB...


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Wysh,
Here is what I would like to say to you. Stop getting your message out to women. Get your message out to men.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Domestic violence calls aside, society treats sexual assaults and other violent crimes against women as fairly acceptable. The punishments are a joke so the perpetrators almost feel justified and definitely emboldened.
I grew up through massive abuse and violence against my mother, sisters, and myself. There is really only one answer when a man decides it's funny to hurt women and children.

I learned that answer as a child and when I was 14 I stopped a man from strangling and raping my 13 year old sister, I used a knife. It worked.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> Domestic violence calls aside, society treats sexual assaults and other violent crimes against women as fairly acceptable. The punishments are a joke so the perpetrators almost feel justified and definitely emboldened.
> I grew up through massive abuse and violence against my mother, sisters, and myself. There is really only one answer when a man decides it's funny to hurt women and children.
> 
> I learned that answer as a child and when I was 14 I stopped a man from strangling and raping my 13 year old sister, I used a knife. It worked.


My former live in boyfriend put a knife to my throat and cut me.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> My former live in boyfriend put a knife to my throat and cut from my chin to my left breast.


I hope you have found people who love you for real. 
Were you able to avoid further violence? Did you have a history of abuse or did you just get sucked into a relationship with a nut with a lot of up front charm?
I know that the scars you can't see hurt worse than anything. I am still healing, but I have come a long ways.
I sure hope you found real love. It helped me heal.


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## committed_guy (Nov 22, 2011)

Perhaps if women could be armed there would be less violence against them?


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

committed_guy said:


> Perhaps if women could be armed there would be less violence against them?


It's quite possible that the women who are armed have less violence against them, however that doesn't address the core issue - which is the abuser. It's like saying that "abusers will continue to be abusers" so it's up to the victim to protect themselves. While that is true as far as it goes, it puts no burden on the abuser to behave like a human being.

Women can be armed. Just like a man can be armed. To the same extent, there are no "special" rules of protection awarded to a specific gender. We are all equal.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Wysh,
> Here is what I would like to say to you. Stop getting your message out to women. Get your message out to men.


Or, more accurately, abusive men.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

2galsmom said:


> Childhood abuse and trauma if left undressed ultimately contribute to domestic violence against woman and men alike and guns do not stop the cycle.


:iagree:


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

committed_guy said:


> Perhaps if women could be armed there would be less violence against them?


Perhaps if women were armed many who are abused would end up behind bars... I know I might have done.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> Although violence against women is more common, violence against men is on the increase.
> 
> I declare this a Violence Against All day.


As RLD points out, in some societies it is very one directional. On an international level, violence by men against women is WAY WAY more than the other way. 

But once you get into a civilized society, it evens out.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> And false allegations of abuse won't be prosecuted because officials don't want to discourage other women from making future accusations of abuse.


I think that is actually counter-productive. This applies to both rape and violence accusations. If false accusations are allowed to stand, then it lessens the belief that accusations should be taken with credibility.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

> Victims of domestic violence are more likely to experience repeat victimisation than victims of any other types of crime(British Crime Survey Reports)


So often this is the case that some women go after the same type of guy. There is nothing more ALPHA than smacking around women. It royally sucks if you care about a woman who keeps putting herself in the same situation time and time again.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

2galsmom said:


> Non abusive men can validate their daughters, teach them that they are about more than validation from men and tell them that they have great self worth. In addition, with all the self-help books out there, I think children need to be educated on what red flags may spell danger for them..


:iagree:

I can't agree with this enough. I think many of the cases of women who end up in abusive relationship have 'daddy issues' where dad was absent or worse, abusive himself.


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## committed_guy (Nov 22, 2011)

survivorwife said:


> It's quite possible that the women who are armed have less violence against them, however that doesn't address the core issue - which is the abuser. It's like saying that "abusers will continue to be abusers" so it's up to the victim to protect themselves. While that is true as far as it goes, it puts no burden on the abuser to behave like a human being.
> 
> Women can be armed. Just like a man can be armed. To the same extent, there are no "special" rules of protection awarded to a specific gender. We are all equal.


We can't legislate niceness. And yes, it is up to an individual to protect themselves. They won't become a victim if they can defend themselves. I also agree both men and women should be armed to protect themselves. I only have control over myself and what I allow others to do to me. I can't ask someone who doesn't want to be nice to be nice. I could make them be nice to me, or at least no hurt me if I were armed. I don't understand how having a campaign against un-nice people is going to change their behavior. A couple rounds of .45 acp will change behavior



Cosmos said:


> Perhaps if women were armed many who are abused would end up behind bars... I know I might have done.


You wouldn't end up behind bars if it were justifiable. Each state has their own self defense rules. Some include preventing assault. If your state doesn't let you defend yourself then petition your lawmakers to change it so that women will never have to be afraid against a bigger or stronger man again.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

2galsmom said:


> You do "victims" of domestic violence a disservice by suggesting a correlation to Islam.


We have two appalling issues at hand. One is the domestic violence here, and the other is the treatment of women as property under much of Islam. I don't think anyone is intending to minimize the violence here by pointing out the other.



2galsmom said:


> Sharia, The Taliban, and Islamic fundamentalism in general without a doubt do not have the best interest of women at heart.
> 
> However, it neglects the millions of abusers who are not muslim. I will not even go into exploring all of the people who practice Islam and are peaceful and loving.


Yes, there are 300 million Muslims in Indonesia alone who don't have that view of women. Let's just not ignore the 300 million who treat women like chattel.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

committed_guy said:


> We can't legislate niceness. And yes, it is up to an individual to protect themselves. They won't become a victim if they can defend themselves. I also agree both men and women should be armed to protect themselves. I only have control over myself and what I allow others to do to me. I can't ask someone who doesn't want to be nice to be nice. I could make them be nice to me, or at least no hurt me if I were armed. I don't understand how having a campaign against un-nice people is going to change their behavior. A couple rounds of .45 acp will change behavior


It is a total shame to let it get to that point. No, you can't legislate nice behavior. But what you can do it lock up the uncivilized people to reduce the number of victims they can accumulate over a lifetime. We can make anti-stalking orders more than a joke.

We've done that to other violent crimes in many states with definite reductions in violent crimes. A wave of laws went through the US in the 90's. Mandatory minimums, 'truth in sentencing, three strikes' laws and so on. We're seeing the results now because so many violent men are off the street. 

We just had a case here - a guy beat up his baby momma, got a felony domestic violence conviction and was out in 30 days. Two weeks after he's out, they're at it again. Neighbors call the police, and when they show up he starts shooting. Girlfriend ends up shot and dead in the crossfire. If he did years instead of a month she'd be alive, at least for now.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> You wouldn't end up behind bars if it were justifiable. Each state has their own self defense rules. Some include preventing assault. If your state doesn't let you defend yourself then petition your lawmakers to change it so that women will never have to be afraid against a bigger or stronger man again.


You would in England. People have been known to go to jail for protecting themselves from burglars in their own homes here.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> You would in England. People have been known to go to jail for protecting themselves from burglars in their own homes here.


Wasn't the Tory government going to do some sort of your home is your castle legislation?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

2galsmom said:


> Your last two statements contradict one another. .


OK, I can see why. I didn't say the OTHER 300 million who treat women like property to be used and abused.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> Wasn't the Tory government going to do some sort of your home is your castle legislation?


There was talk of it, Wysh, and I hope they do it soon.  Remember that appalling case of Farmer Tony Martin? Poor guy served 3 years in jail, having had his charge reduced from murder to manslaughter.

For my part, it's bad enough having to live with a very serious and painful condition, thanks to the abuse I suffered at the hands of a maniac, without having to go to jail for killing the cowardly ******, too.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> There was talk of it, Wysh, and I hope they do it soon.  Remember that appalling case of Farmer Tony Martin? Poor guy served 3 years in jail, having had his charge reduced from murder to manslaughter.
> 
> For my part, it's bad enough having to live with a very serious and painful condition, thanks to the abuse I suffered at the hands of a maniac, without having had to go to jail for killing the cowardly ******, too.


Difficult case that one.

Hard to find sympathy for the lad who got shot but he was someone's son.

And by all accounts the farmer was talking it up that he was going to shoot someone first chance he got, and he shot the young lad in the back.

Not trying to excuse the lad as he was a crim through and through with apparently 29 convictions by the time he was 16 but shot in the back as he was running away?

Then you had that case in America when a British couple were lost, and the chap walked up to the door to ask directions and got shot and killed by the home owner.


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## CouldItBeSo (Mar 11, 2013)

2galsmom said:


> You do "victims" of domestic violence a disservice by suggesting a correlation to Islam. Sharia, The Taliban, and Islamic fundamentalism in general without a doubt do not have the best interest of women at heart. However, it neglects the millions of abusers who are not muslim. I will not even go into exploring all of the people who practice Islam and are peaceful and loving.


You forgot Christianity and millions of Christians who are abusers. There are a few lines in the Bible that condone rape for example.


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## LaQueso (Dec 30, 2012)

Abuse isn't always physical. I am struggling to leave my marriage after years of verbal, mental and financial abuse and the courts are helping my abuser because "it's not that bad, I haven't been hit."
I am a veteran's wife and there is no safety net since he didn't retire. I am trapped in paradise since he got the courts to agree that the kids have to stay here since I can't provide 10,000 dollars.
I have no physical scars but it's going to be years to heal from the head trip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

LaQueso said:


> Abuse isn't always physical. I am struggling to leave my marriage after years of verbal, mental and financial abuse and the courts are helping my abuser because "it's not that bad, I haven't been hit."
> I am a veteran's wife and there is no safety net since he didn't retire. I am trapped in paradise since he got the courts to agree that the kids have to stay here since I can't provide 10,000 dollars.
> I have no physical scars but it's going to be years to heal from the head trip.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All forms of abuse can be equally devastating. Bruises can fade, bones can heal, but mental abuse can leave you with years of PTSD.


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## CouldItBeSo (Mar 11, 2013)

2galsmom said:


> This is why I made the point about Islam, to deter a sideshow discussion on the evils of organized religion while violence to women is being done by the faithful and faithless alike.


That was exactly my purpose too. Someone mentioned the 'honor killings.' Honor killings are not about religion. Romanian gypsies do this too for example and they are as Atheist as one can be.


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## loopy lu (Oct 30, 2013)

A sensational Ted Talk if you have the time for it:

Violence against women - its a men's issue. 

Jackson Katz: Violence against women—it's a men's issue | Video on TED.com


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## loopy lu (Oct 30, 2013)

committed_guy said:


> Perhaps if women could be armed there would be less violence against them?


Perhaps if we focused on telling people not to rape, beat or kill, rather than victim blaming, we'd move in a more positive direction. 

Im Australian, and we have successfully implemented a gun buy back scheme with strict gun control legislation following our worst mass shooting in history almost 20 years ago....wanna know how many we have had since??? None. Arming is not the answer.


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## committed_guy (Nov 22, 2011)

loopy lu said:


> Perhaps if we focused on telling people not to rape, beat or kill, rather than victim blaming, we'd move in a more positive direction.
> 
> Im Australian, and we have successfully implemented a gun buy back scheme with strict gun control legislation following our worst mass shooting in history almost 20 years ago....wanna know how many we have had since??? None. Arming is not the answer.


I didn't mean to turn this into a debate about gun control. I'm not going to argue statistics because the numbers aren't there to support either side. There still is violent crime that citizens are defenseless to.

What is there is we have a right to defend ourselves as individuals. We aren't going to tell people not to do commit crime and them stop doing it. What I am saying is a woman armed is just as strong as the strong men, or even a group of men. 

I wish someone could explain to me this thought about "just teach people to be nice and crime will magically go away." Until then my wife is armed and is a pretty good shot.


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## CouldItBeSo (Mar 11, 2013)

committed_guy said:


> I didn't mean to turn this into a debate about gun control. I'm not going to argue statistics because the numbers aren't there to support either side. There still is violent crime that citizens are defenseless to.
> 
> What is there is we have a right to defend ourselves as individuals. We aren't going to tell people not to do commit crime and them stop doing it. What I am saying is a woman armed is just as strong as the strong men, or even a group of men.
> 
> I wish someone could explain to me this thought about "just teach people to be nice and crime will magically go away." Until then my wife is armed and is a pretty good shot.


I think you missed stats like this: _"54 per cent of women victims of serious sexual assault were assaulted by their partner or ex-partner"_

A gun is not going to help in those or other DV situations.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

2galsmom said:


> I understood the definition of chattel. I simply do not believe there are 300 million men ALL believing they can abuse and treat women poorly. I do not want to encourage holy war over domestic violence, there are no holy wars.


I'm not advocating war, but I also don't advocate ignoring it. And I do believe that the number is that high. And it's not only men. Women keep things going "for tradition." I consider FGM violence against women, and much of it is done at the hands of other women.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Pht,
You're killin me. 

I really enjoy your contribution here. You are one of my favorite posters. Which is why I dislike doing this.

There is one and only one violent event which is not subject to 'reporting' skew, or gender politics. And that is homicide. I think we can all agree homicide is the most severe form of violence. 

If you want to look at the raw data, the WSJ has a very easy to use online database containing a full decade of US homicide data for 2000 to 2010. 

Out of 165k murders, sadly 70k are unsolved. But of the 95k solved homicides, the picture on intimidate partner homicide is very clear: Males kill their female partners three times as often. 

If you treat this information as similar to 'war time casualty' data, 
you can extrapolate that for every one murder, there is some proportion of 'failed efforts' resulting in serious injury.

Murder in America - WSJ.com

------
As men, we go through life fueled by adrenaline and testosterone. We are physiologically wired for violence and ALL the crime stats on violent crime I have ever seen reflect that. 





PHTlump said:


> Actually, incidents rates for minor violence are approximately equal between men and women. But for severe violence, more men are victims than women.
> Ters
> And, sadly, men who are victims have nowhere to turn. Many domestic abuse shelters only help women and will turn men away. Police and prosecutors aren't equipped to handle women abusers. Men are automatically presumed guilty. They are pretty much on their own.


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## committed_guy (Nov 22, 2011)

CouldItBeSo said:


> I think you missed stats like this: _"54 per cent of women victims of serious sexual assault were assaulted by their partner or ex-partner"_
> 
> A gun is not going to help in those or other DV situations.


I understand what you are saying. I'm not saying guns are the solution in every situation. But for the random encounter or the type of encounter where the would-be victim could prepare themselves then it would help. Often in these sorts of discussions it becomes an all-or-nothing type of answer. I wasn't advocating that. I realize that trust is broken. I've had that happen in my own life, I understand.

I guess what I think of mostly when it comes to violence against women is a more physically weak woman against a stronger man who asserts himself against her. A gun in that circumstance would level the playing field. 

Situation awareness and smart choices should be able to help a woman in most circumstances but in those that where she trusts someone who violates that trust there may be nothing she can do in that moment. In those circumstances yes, I hope the bastard goes to jail for most of his remaining life.

But even if there is a gun in the home, here in the US there have been many cases of justifiable homicide of wives who shot their abusive husbands. That depends on the country's rules on that sort of thing and I would hope that she (or he if the case may be) would seek counseling before the situation gets that bad.


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## CouldItBeSo (Mar 11, 2013)

committed_guy said:


> I understand what you are saying. I'm not saying guns are the solution in every situation. But for the random encounter or the type of encounter where the would-be victim could prepare themselves then it would help. Often in these sorts of discussions it becomes an all-or-nothing type of answer. I wasn't advocating that. I realize that trust is broken. I've had that happen in my own life, I understand.
> 
> I guess what I think of mostly when it comes to violence against women is a more physically weak woman against a stronger man who asserts himself against her. A gun in that circumstance would level the playing field.
> 
> ...


I suppose you are telling women to carry a gun when out at night. You are assuming in your scenario that only the woman would be "prepared" and have a gun and ignoring that all the offenders were "prepared" and would be carrying too.

How many cases are there where the husband got the "gun in home" first and shot the wife instead the other way. If you're telling wives they should be "prepared" for violence in their homes at all times, that's not a marriage at all in my books.


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## committed_guy (Nov 22, 2011)

CouldItBeSo said:


> I suppose you are telling women to carry a gun when out at night. You are assuming in your scenario that only the woman would be "prepared" and have a gun and ignoring that all the offenders were "prepared" and would be carrying too.
> 
> How many cases are there where the husband got the "gun in home" first and shot the wife instead the other way. If you're telling wives they should be "prepared" for violence in their homes at all times, that's not a marriage at all in my books.


You have two scenarios here:

First, Yes, I should hope that every person, woman or man, can carry to defend their own lives. If legislation is passed to ban guns, then the stronger person with a knife, gun, or other instrument, would win. As I have already said, a gun just levels the playing field in most circumstances. Preparedness and situational awareness will win the day and get you home safely to your bed that night.

The second scenario is guns are known about in the home and the husband abuses that trust. That is a gray area for me and I realize there is legitimate uncertainly here. A spouse wants to believe that the other would not violate that trust. However, when they do the abused spouse should have justifiable homicide as a reason to blow the other's brains out. Here in the US there have been several cases of wife's getting justifiable homicide based on history of abuse. 

I agree that's not "marriage" as it's meant to be. But a wife who has access to a firearm who could defend herself in the worst situation. That would give her the time to at least safely flee from that abusive situation. That firearm would level the playing field between the weakest spouse to the strongest.

There seems to be this disconnect when we talk about violence between the way the world is supposed to be and the way the world is. No wife, or husband, should "prepare" for violence against a person who pledged their love to them. But sadly it happens because people suck some times. Telling the lesser spouse they are out of luck in that situation because we don't want to permit guns, is immoral in my opinion. I should hope that in a situation when they would need a gun they could have it over just saying that was terrible and mourning the loss. 

Yes we should continue to promote good strong and healthy marriages but sometimes people marry people they shouldn't, people who abuse that trust. I would rather my daughter have the ability to defend herself then trust someone who has a pattern of abuse.


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## CouldItBeSo (Mar 11, 2013)

Funny how you turned a thread about violence against women into a pro gun thread.

You are assuming a lot within your scenarios, that: 1) a victim and an offender should be on equal ground, 2) when the husband is about to go for another round of abuse or just snaps he doesn't get the gun first, 3) that the wife is actually capable of shooting her husband or anyone. These scenarios can all end up a dead woman and the offender(s) get to roam free instead of a woman who survives and the offender(s) go to jail.

Guns are not the solution.

The solution is to detect faulty individuals (the offenders) and snap them out of society early on before they do any harm. I'm quite sure they have something different than normal people, like a gene or brain part. Of course the science can't do this, yet.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Another Aussie here and I just cannot understand guns being a solution. Crazytown, I would never live in such a society.

Just have to look around this place to see the misogyny and anti women feelings of some of the lesser men. Even in this thread there are men trying to lessen the horrific stats on violence against women by saying that men are also victims of crime. Well yes they are and that should never be tolerated but it isn't a pissing contest. The facts are there that violence against women is out of control, women are far more likely to be attacked by someone they know. Men that try to sweep that under the carpet by saying that men are victims as well are just helping to exacerbate the problem. 

Boys need to be raised by better men. Sadly the attitude of many of the men here does not bode well for them to be raising the next generation of men. 

The men in my life are outstanding and they are raising the next generation of outstanding men. It is heartening to see and I hope to raise my daughter to not settle for less than a great man.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Holland said:


> Even in this thread there are men trying to lessen the horrific stats on violence against women by saying that men are also victims of crime. Well yes they are and that should never be tolerated but *it isn't a pissing contest*.


1000% :iagree:


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

Holland said:


> Boys need to be raised by better men. Sadly the attitude of many of the men here does not bode well for them to be raising the next generation of men.


You're half right. All children need to be raised better. Both boys and girls need to be taught effective ways to manage anger. Both need to be taught to recognize the early signs that their partner has the potential to be abusive so they can get out before things escalate to violence. 

This is OUR problem as humans. Not a problem for one gender or the other.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

zookeeper said:


> You're half right. All children need to be raised better. Both boys and girls need to be taught effective ways to manage anger. Both need to be taught to recognize the early signs that their partner has the potential to be abusive so they can get out before things escalate to violence.
> 
> This is OUR problem as humans. Not a problem for one gender or the other.


Totally agree however what I mean is that boys that have good men as role models benefit greatly from that. Boys that are raised in a world that accepts misogyny and violence towards women have that as their reference point.
Girls also need to be raised by great men, my dad is one of the greatest  

As a whole it is an issue for all humans, yes.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

loopy lu said:


> Perhaps if we focused on telling people not to rape, beat or kill, rather than victim blaming, we'd move in a more positive direction.


 It all boils down to a* loss of empathy* and caring for other human beings.. many are mentally ill as well or so angry in their own lives...coming from dysfunctional homes.... they just don't care anymore.. I believe this sort of mentoring starts from a young age...if it is absent... the children are more likely to roam aimless without exceptional role models that impact their lives..(a teacher, an Uncle... someone who is there for them in a deep way, encouraging them towards the good)....



> *Holland said:**Totally agree however what I mean is that boys that have good men as role models benefit greatly from that*. Boys that are raised in a world that accepts misogyny and violence towards women have that as their reference point.
> Girls also need to be raised by great men, my dad is one of the greatest





> The Importance of Positive Male Role Models | First Things First
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

There is a serious problem with domestic violence and a serious problem with overstated and exaggerated allegations to gain an advantage in a divorce. The courts seem to have difficulty sorting them out, treating guys like Ariel Castro (the kidnapper and serial rapist) quite nicely, but have no compunction about imprisoning an accountant or architect in a fight the wife started to get him out of the house.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> I completely agree with you on that. A day to commemorate violence against women? To raise awareness, and yet the core issue here; the men that are the abusers, have no shame or conscience. This day isn't for *their* awareness. They don't care.


If only you could get rid of the men right? 

Well, here's the problem. Lesbian couples have a higher rate of domestic violence than heterosexual couples. In fact, their rate is even higher than gay male couples! And no, I have no explanation.

Domestic violence among homosexual partners. [Psychol Rep. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

Domestic Violence in Lesbian Relationships | Pandora's Project


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

CouldItBeSo said:


> You forgot Christianity and millions of Christians who are abusers. There are a few lines in the Bible that condone rape for example.


This is so misinformed I hardly know where to start. 

First of all, the Old Testament proscribes the death penalty for rape, so it's about as far from condoning rape as you can possibly get. 

Second of all, Christians follow the New Testament anyway, which never directly addresses the issue of rape.

I have no idea if Islam condones domestic violence or not, but as a cultural factor in Islamic societies it can't be ignored. I've been to several Middle Eastern countries. Beating your wife is the rule, not the exception. Killing your wife if she is unfaithful is perfectly accepted. In Iraq, Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait, a woman can't even go out jogging, or everyone will point to her and say "look at that bad woman, she is trying to show her body to everyone" (that is a direct quote, btw). Even riding a bicycle is frowned on. The mentality in the Middle East over this issue is so alien to most Westerners that most of them refuse to believe that it is that bad. But it is really that bad.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Theseus said:


> This is so misinformed I hardly know where to start.
> 
> First of all, the Old Testament proscribes the death penalty for rape, so it's about as far from condoning rape as you can possibly get.


One of CouldItBeSo's threads here arguing this >> 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/politi...ing-rape-violence-against-children-women.html

It appears some feel all Christians are MISOGYNISTS.... I googled this not long ago out of curiosity and WOW...what an eye opener... some would label every believer a "woman hater"...... Most of the people in my life are Christians (some of our closest friends are Mormons).. ..what I have seen is -the majority are Loving husbands who treat their wives with respect , intact families....behaved children...the type I enjoy having at my house...

Personally I am for the Death Penalty (though the way our courts are, there are grave problems with it- when many witnesses are drug addicts /liars looking out for themselves, innocent people can be convicted...what a shame...but when there is 0 doubt... I don't see the problem at all)...

I have very little sympathy /mercy against people who destroy human life in cold blood , rape women, children... I also feel our cops deserve more rights and our children ought to be taught, ... you point a gun at a cop....you RUN....you welcome getting shot -at least tasered .... Cops needs to be men of the character or they have no business holding the job.... I am really not a bleeding heart to those who are repeat offenders ...we must grow up & learn from our mistakes...or face the harsh consequences that follow.....The history of person is very telling.. 

*The victim is the only one I would care about.*.

Unfortunately too many people who have no Inkling how to raise children are having babies ....these drug addicted /abusive men & women have far too many RIGHTS & their unfortunate children grow up abused, neglected, in & out of foster care , have no idea what the hell love & belonging is......

Far too many grow up repeating the mistakes/lifestyles of all they have known.... so there it goes...the circle of life continues.. then when those of us point out a better way....Join a Youth Group... serve stiffer consequences for bullying (I feel these kids should have hands on Community service )....

No, this is *too harsh* some would say....society praises many things that cause what we see today.... we make excuses for the multi-million dollar law breaker because he throws a golden football.......we keep buying the music of those who sing HATE / violence....those who do speak out against some of this... they get browbeat as trying to enforce "morality"... like it's a dirty word... 

So very little will change...it starts with what we are taught, the environment we grow up in...what we allow IN...*to inspire us*..and..hopefully retaining our conscience along the way ..to not be seared by everything trying to desensitize it...as there is PLENTY....

Never let go of Empathy, fight to keep it in all of our actions towards others.. Empathy Definition 












> *Why Practice Empathy?*
> 
> Empathy is a building block of morality—for people to follow the Golden Rule, it helps if they can put themselves in someone else’s shoes. It is also a key ingredient of successful relationships because it helps us understand the perspectives, needs, and intentions of others. Here are some of the ways that research has testified to the far-reaching importance of empathy.
> 
> ...


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

loopy lu said:


> Im Australian, and we have successfully implemented a gun buy back scheme with strict gun control legislation following our worst mass shooting in history almost 20 years ago....wanna know how many we have had since??? None. Arming is not the answer.


I question the wisdom of measuring the success of a government program by the frequency of an exceedingly rare event. If the government instituted a 100% income tax to reduce the chance of catastrophic meteor strikes, and then we don't see a catastrophic meteor strike for thousands of years, does that mean that the government program was successful? Or does that mean that catastrophic meteor strikes are rare events?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

CouldItBeSo said:


> I think you missed stats like this: _"54 per cent of women victims of serious sexual assault were assaulted by their partner or ex-partner"_
> 
> A gun is not going to help in those or other DV situations.


Why wouldn't a gun help a woman defend herself from a boyfriend or husband? Are you suggesting that a woman would be better off trying to defend herself in a fistfight with a man who is probably bigger and stronger than she is than by using a weapon to gain an advantage? That seems illogical.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Pht,
> You're killin me.
> 
> I really enjoy your contribution here. You are one of my favorite posters. Which is why I dislike doing this.


I appreciate the kind words and the admiration is mutual.

As for the statistics, I hadn't seen the U.S. homicide rates you posted. Husbands/boyfriends are certainly more likely to kill their wives/girlfriends than vice versa. I didn't post a link to the source of my stats before, so here you go.
Domestic Violence Research Group

The research at the link I provided is a synthesis of hundreds of studies conducted internationally. Perhaps victimization rates by sex even out when compared internationally. Perhaps the U.S. crime stats include populations rarely measured by academic studies. Perhaps women are much more likely to hurt, but not kill. their partners than men. I'll let others peruse the data and make their own conclusions.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

CouldItBeSo said:


> Guns are not the solution.
> 
> The solution is to detect faulty individuals (the offenders) and snap them out of society early on before they do any harm. I'm quite sure they have something different than normal people, like a gene or brain part. Of course the science can't do this, yet.


Well, to be fair, you're not saying that guns aren't the solution. You are saying that they ARE the solution. But that women shouldn't be trusted to be the ones who have guns. We should trust government officials to be the ones to have the guns.

As for scientifically identifying people likely to hurt others and remove them from society before they offend, that's an interesting idea. I certainly think we could do some of that. For example, some studies propose that men with the XYY chromosomal abnormality are more likely to be violent than normal, XY men.

This field of eugenics has a great deal of promise for identifying inferior specimens and removing them, thereby promoting a healthier and more desirable society with traits that are approved of by government officials, who have all the guns.

Of course, we would need a place to put these people. Perhaps we could build camps where we could concentrate these undesirables in one place, or "concentration camps," for short. We could surround the camps with government officials, with their guns, to discourage those people from trying to leave the camps and re-enter society at large.

But there's no reason to stop at nature. Nuture obviously plays a significant role in future behavior. It's well known that children and victims of abusers frequently mature and become abusers as well. In the future, we could round up victims of sexual molestation and children of men guilty of domestic violence and send them to the concentration camps before they have a chance to hurt anyone.

You know, after I've had a chance to put some ideas down on paper, I just can't see the down side. I wonder why nobody has thought of this before?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh Jesus, someone open a window and let the fly out!


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## CouldItBeSo (Mar 11, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Oh Jesus, someone open a window and let the fly out!











!


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> One of CouldItBeSo's threads here arguing this >>


Thanks for the link, I responded here. It's ludicrous to use the Old Testament to argue against Christianity. If you want to use it to argue with Orthodox Jews, well, then have at it. 


_



Personally I am for the Death Penalty (though the way our courts are, there are grave problems with it- when many witnesses are drug addicts /liars looking out for themselves, innocent people can be convicted...what a shame...but when there is 0 doubt... I don't see the problem at all)...

Click to expand...

_Are you for the death penalty in cases of domestic violence? That is a bit extreme, if we are talking about violence that hasn't risen to the level of murder.


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## I am (Dec 3, 2013)

Violence against women is ridiculous.


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## loopy lu (Oct 30, 2013)

An excellent read:

How to spot a misogynist

Please take not of point 4 and 5.


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## CouldItBeSo (Mar 11, 2013)

loopy lu said:


> An excellent read:
> 
> How to spot a misogynist
> 
> Please take not of point 4 and 5.


I don't think many here would pass that test...


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## CouldItBeSo (Mar 11, 2013)

Theseus said:


> If only you could get rid of the men right?
> 
> Well, here's the problem. Lesbian couples have a higher rate of domestic violence than heterosexual couples. In fact, their rate is even higher than gay male couples! And no, I have no explanation.
> 
> ...


Though those gallups are almost 20 years old, some even more than that; the oldest one they refer to is from 1986. I see it problematic also that they are not real figures but surveys and gallups.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Theseus said:


> *Are you for the death penalty in cases of domestic violence? That is a bit extreme, if we are talking about violence that hasn't risen to the level of murder.*


 *No*..*.of course not.... I wasn't suggesting that at all*... I just mentioned it.. I haven't been following this thread , just jumped in randomly..I ran with something mentioned... that should be for Killing in cold blood/ murder only....

I am not in tune with the back & forths here...(sorry).....other than to say...* I am ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS for the victim*..... people who lay hands on you to hurt are Boundaryless and need controlled..(though I spanked every one of my children, so go figure, they are model kids)... there is always a balance..... we are far from abusive parents...

I am for swift consequences when dealing with bad behavior... I feel the courts are too light...and families are too dysfunctional so nothing will change.. 

I have no personal experience with friends or anything in this sort of situation, it is more of what I see on TV...read about..just seen a Documentary 2 nights ago, this husband killed his wife after 9 days in a diving accident..insurance money, revenge for her dissing him in high school... I really don't know what the hell his hatered was.... but he was distant, he caused her a lot of grief, ignored her family, COLD... why did she stay with him??? 

So yeah... it's atrocious...I wouldn't be against stiffer penalties / consequences / more intensive intervention *at younger ages *to reach those who are leaning this direction towards others (Lacking empathy)...I happen to believe the signs are ALWAYS there ...... but the way it is set up... seems you have to kill someone to get any attention...irregardless of one's law breaking past...

Our daughters need to be taught carefully for those signs..to avoid getting involved with such men.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Anon Pink said:


> *Oh Jesus, someone open a window and let the fly out!*


OK, I am pretty dense with the jokes.. what is this referring to, can someone enlighten me ? who is the FLY that you all want swatted ? 



> A*n excellent read:
> 
> How to spot a misogynist
> 
> Please take not of point 4 and 5.*


 on #3 ...." Stop criticizing domestic servitude! Some women are proud to look after their families."...

.... I enjoy being a Stay at Home Mom (with a few small side jobs).. ..this has worked well for the running of our larger family... this brings me JOY...our children are happy, sure they may want nicer things now & then, but have never complained.....my husband prefers me to stay home... I am not offended by this in the least..I am even thankful he feels this way... there is no manipulation going on here or his trying to "keep me down" which is what this article is suggesting....

He has ALWAYS praised my role..and I praise his...we are equals.....

This is not correct to say my husband wouldn't lift a finger to help me... not at all... but I don't need his help either.. *so is this article ever so subtlety calling ME a Misognynist -because I FEEL THIS WAY...or he because he would prefer a wife who was in the home raising the children ? * and if I feel other women are putting me down, to ...to defend this as a role *I have chosen*...we both see value in it.

I like the comment underneath the article by a responder.. she was talking about her female friend who has chosen to stay home.....


> She would especially hate this comment. The suggestion that her life's work is nothing more than 'dull domestic tasks for the benefit of everyone other than herself'.
> 
> Frankly, that's condescending, patronizing and judgmental. (I feel this also)
> 
> ...


So how do we stop these so -called misogynists...by belittling their choices -that others so easily assume = automatic misogyny - which is not always so black & white... or so I feel....one needs a much larger picture of a couples life, circumstances...before painting with such a broad brush...


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> OK, I am pretty dense with the jokes.. what is this referring to, can someone enlighten me ? who is the FLY that you all want swatted ?


I think you'll find that is a reference to something annoyingly buzzing around in the background, buzzing, buzzing, buzzing getting on your nerves while you are trying to do stuff.

I suppose if you were being uncharitable you could say it was a reference to another poster continually annoying you with their incessant buzzing.

But I'm sure it just means that Anon has a pesky fly in the house.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> I think you'll find that is a reference to something annoyingly buzzing around in the background, buzzing, buzzing, buzzing getting on your nerves while you are trying to do stuff.
> 
> I suppose if you were being uncharitable you could say it was a reference to another poster continually annoying you with their incessant buzzing.
> 
> But I'm sure it just means that Anon has a pesky fly in the house.


The trouble is, as tempting as it is to swat the said fly, it's often best to just open a window and hope it takes the hint


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> The trouble is, as tempting as it is to swat the said fly, it's often best to just open a window and hope it takes the hint


Ok, I'm going, I get the hint.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> OK, I am pretty dense with the jokes.. what is this referring to, can someone enlighten me ? who is the FLY that you all want swatted ?


It's me. Or, rather, I'm one of the flies that should be silenced. It's based on my past reputation. See, I used to be hostile to feminism.

But I'm reformed now. However, I haven't been converted to feminism for that long, so people are still assuming that I have a pro-rapist, pro-victimizing women agenda. That's why, when I agreed with the proposal of using eugenics to identify inferior specimens (i.e., men) and removing them from society, I am accused of being an agent of the patriarchy. I understand. They're everywhere and we must be constantly vigilant. The patriarchy can even use the ideas of feminism against us feminists.

I did look at the list, and I have been guilty of several of those crimes in the past. I used to believe in science, logic, and reason. But, as a recently converted feminist, I no longer do. I believe in the supremacy of feewings. I no longer have the burden of observing the world as it is and trying to adjust my behavior and attitudes to it. Now, I simply imagine the world as I would like it to be, ignore all evidence that it isn't the utopia that I envision, and cry about my hurt feewings when people point out that my beliefs are incorrect. Objective reality, for me, has ceased to exist. It's very liberating.

As for science, I now know that science is misogynistic. Women are simply men with breasts. That is the only difference that is important to my feewings. Therefore, other differences must not exist.

There are other items from the list that I used to be guilty of espousing, such as the fact that statisticians have long said that the pay gap is a myth. However, as a newly converted feminist, I now know that the fact that female waitresses earn less than male surgeons simply proves the fact that the patriarchy intentionally discriminates against women. QED.



> *so is this article ever so subtlety calling ME a Misognynist -because I FEEL THIS WAY...or he because he would prefer a wife who was in the home raising the children ? * and if I feel other women are putting me down, to ...to defend this as a role *I have chosen*...we both see value in it.


Unfortunately, yes. I must tell you that, according to the tenets of feminism, you will never fulfill your full value as a woman until you have a high paying career outside the home. Being a homemaker is nothing more than serving the patriarchy by placing your husband at an economic advantage to you. It really doesn't matter that you think it's working well for your family.

So, let me again announce that I have turned over a new leaf, sistas. No longer will I be a tool of the patriarchy. Thanks for helping me see the light.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

loopy lu said:


> An excellent read:
> 
> How to spot a misogynist
> 
> Please take not of point 4 and 5.


You shouldn't ignore the existence of #4. Her point is that it isn't a valid reason to argue for entrenched inequality, and I agree with that. Nor should it be a reason to pre-judge anybody based on their gender (going either direction). But to deny that there are innate difference between the genders is foolish.

Number 5 is USED by the feminists whenever anyone complains about misandry.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> OK, I am pretty dense with the jokes.. what is this referring to, can someone enlighten me ? who is the FLY that you all want swatted ?
> 
> on #3 ...." Stop criticizing domestic servitude! Some women are proud to look after their families."...
> 
> ...


As Wysh correctly pointed out, the annoying fly was another poster. And the article was directed to that poster.

The article was snarky in tone, a tongue in cheek ranting about mysogynists in general terms. 

SA, I am a SAHM too and other than the first two years, I have never ever felt belittled or looked down upon for making that choice. In fact, most times when another woman did make a snarky retort about it, she was very clearly broadcasting her jealousy that she was unable to make that choice herself. 

The vast majority of the negativity I have encountered has been from MEN questioning the relative value I brought to the family once my kids were in school...since I had so much free time... To me, the comments those men made showed what little value they placed on traditional gender roles and that they are more dangerously misogynistic than the knuckle dragging Neanderthal that is more typically associated with the term. Or perhaps they had a SAHM who actually sucked at it so they generalized the nominal value to all SAHMs.

You must agree that when a woman loves being a SAHM, her husband supports it, encourages it and above all appreciates it, even if he's not very good about demonstrating it.

For those of us who take joy in being a SAHM, we have to remember that being a SAHM is not for everyone.


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