# Her Husband Giving me Details My Husband Denies



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

Got an anonymous message e-mail yesterday that turned out to be from HER husband. "Do you know where your husband was yesterday when he was supposed to be in Laurel? He was in E City cheating on you with a married coworker" So, after investigation, that did reveal that he was indeed many many miles from where he'd said he'd gone, hacking into his e-mail and seeing an e-mail from HER appear saying "My husband knows and he's going to buy a gun.", I confronted my husband. He's all, we are just friends, and I went to help her pick out a baby gift for a baby shower, and I knew how you'd react so I said I was going to see my other friend. And he's all, nothing happened, she's my friend from work (they are elementary teachers). I continued to get texts from her husband giving me details of the story she told him, that they had sex in his car Saturday and had been meeting up with each other after school (staying late doing "work"). Even with the information from the husband, my husband is still saying nothing happened. I sooooo want to make this work. We already had our first counseling appointment scheduled before even found out about this, we have a 5 year old daughter, been married 10 years, and I still love him, fool me!!! But I can't see it working if he doesn't confess the whole thing and stop being like "I knew you'd react like this, so that's why I lied about where I was we were just talking" bull****e. We are currently living apart with a shared custody agreement for now, and I really hope that the shame (and I know that's what's keeping him from even admitting to himself the disgusting thing he did, because he would be the last person I'd think would cross that line) does not keep him from being able to work on his denial and minimizing, so we can get down to moving forward and working on the issues that were already there. What do I do??! I am heartbroken. I haven't eaten in a day and a half, I keep throwing up, my eyes are swollen shut, etc....I know we're both too raw right now to even be talking in our right minds. He can't even talk on the phone with me but it sounds like someone is sitting on his chest and he has no air. Well, me too buddy!! I'm figuring a 3-6 month separation at LEAST, while we go to intensive therapy and try to see what's what and if we can work through this. I know we can't if he continues this shpiel, but I hope the MALE counselor I booked can have some influence on him. He is the BEST father in the world, but has proven a lousy husband recently. He has been deeply depressed for about a year, and I know he has acted in ways he might not have, even given our marital problems which we have been actively working on for awhile. He was just working on them with THE WRONG PERSON!!!! Grrrrrrr. In the stages of grief and loss, I am going between depression and anger. When will I not feel like a ping pong. It's only been a day since I found out....


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How many men would drive to another town to help a co-worker buy baby shower gifts? What a nonsense story.

It sounds like you were living separate before you got this information. How long have you been separated?

This is all too new. You do not need to make any decisions right now on whether or not you even want to reconcile.

You might want to ask her husband for concrete proof of the affair. Does he have any txts, emails, etc between them?

Have you checked your husband’s cell phone? How about the cell phone bill? IT will show how often they text and call each other a day.

Ask him if he is insisting that his wife quit her job. 

Were I you I would tell your husband that you absolutely believe that her husband told you. That your imagination is all you really have right now. So it would be better if he told you what happened instead of you learning of it through her husband. The truth is definately better than you relying on your wild imagination because right you that's all you have.

How long has his affair been going on?


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Your husband is looking you in the face and lying through his teeth. 

He knows dammn well he's been cheating with a married woman. 

I'm concerned about his girl friend's husband's plan on buying a gun. It is very serious. He must be beside himself with grief but adultery is not a capital offense. He may be beating his wife if he's getting information so freely. Or she may have confessed out of guilt. 

But I believe him. His actions sound frantic and he probably wants revenge. Be careful. If you have the courage, call him and find out what's going on over there. If he is forthcoming, ask to speak to his wife. 

You don't owe her anything, but as a compassionate human being your first question (if she's not on speaker phone) is "Are you being physically abused?" if so call the police. She deserves a verbal bashing but not a physical bashing. She's a mother to someone that doesn't deserve that. 

Your husband is a POS and can't be "a great father" if he is willing to have his children living in a single parent home. He could have divorced you amicably and acted honorably. This is the man who is going to be the male role model to your children. Good role models have good morals. He does not.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

How did he like the gun remark? I would keep bringing that up. Like "have you seen anyone following you?"

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

Here is a link to get you a lot of info.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

BTW, do you KNOW why he has been depressed for a year? Could the affair go back that far?


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

We were NOT separated before. I asked him to pack it up today as I wanted to vomit every time I look at him. But he's half the time fully repentant that he "lied", but not about the "Friend" he made, and half the time more on the offensive about how I don't understand him, blah blah. HER husband found out because their car has GPS tracking and he wondered why the heck she was so far from home- they both were. And he confronted her about it, because he had noticed she'd been making lame excuses to stay late at work, and shutting down internet pages when he walked by (just like mine). He told me she confessed, and that it seems most of the time they spent together was more a blurring of the boundaries type thing (still wrong), and that this Saturday it crossed the final line. He has no proof, other than that both of them were in that parking lot for 2 hours alone together, and of course what she said. My husband almost always had had only girl friends. Not many guy friends. He's been that way since high school. Life of the party, likes to be liked, etc...HE is insisting it's just like any of those friends, but I asked him when was the last time he lied to me to go meet up with one of his friends I knew, when was the last time he sat with one of them in a parking lot "just talking" because it feels good to be around her and "she understands" him? It WAS different, but he won't admit it. And all those other friends he has text threads, all very innocent. With her...nothing, which was noteworthy in itself. Her husband says it was all through private Facebook messages. And I did get into his e-mail account while investigating yesterday, and happened to be on when her e-mail popped up about her husband "knowing". His story is total bull. But I think he's shocked even himself with this behavior. Like I said, even with all our problems, he is full on family man, God fearing church leader, and is probably appalled at his own behavior. I honestly think he's convinced himself it didn't really happen and if he says it enough he'll believe it. I know him...that's what's going on. So, I do have hope that the counseling process might help. I think he'll be receptive to it. We were in before for a short time, but it wasn't a good match and we stopped. Then, he began to slide into a deep depression, with very few symptoms other than losing his smile and being quieter. Life went on as usual, although I kept mentioning this to him. I struggle with depression on and off myself....We are like a powder keg, for real. My mother in law also lives with us, and guess who got stuck with HER as well as the 5 year old??!! And her and I do not get along. She still does NOT believe he even lied AT ALL, much less did anything but be a good friend to that poor woman who needed a friend. But he and I are planning on doing weekly swaps of the house for the time being, so my daughter doesn't have to go anywhere. We are the ones to swap out, not her. That is obvious temporary. HER husband doesn't know what he's doing yet either. He said it's not looking good. They have a 13 year old son. They were all at my house for a Christmas party last week. Oh, I didn't mention that? Yeah. Her husband was worried about STD's but I told him not to worry....we have trouble getting pregnant, and I was just inseminated 2 weeks ago, soooo, yeah....all recently tested. Wooo-hoo. Sorry- sarcasm wards off rage for a moment.


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

So you have two people trying to convince you not to believe your "lying heart". Shameful.

It's not a good sign that one partner in a marriage has mostly opposite sex friends. It's often a sign of wanting validation for whatever shortcoming they feel they have. 

Don't let his religiosity confuse the issue. Some of the biggest and most vile perverts use religion as a cover. (Not saying this is your husband - but religion is no 'cover' at all).

Tell your husband to write down everything he says has happened between himself and his married girlfriend including texts and emails. 

After he has finished ask if there's anything he wants to add or forgot. Finally tell him you want to attend MC with him but only after he has taken and passed a polygraph exam. 

If he objects for 'whatever reason' (and yes YOU DONT TRUST HIM) then you know what he wrote is false.


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

I can get a polygraph on him? Where? How? I have already done the "anything else to add" thing. I even sent him excerpts of the e-mail messages the husband sent me....see the detail? I know religion is no cover-up. EVERYONE, religious or not, is only human. But I know him, and he doesn't see it that way. HE has to be above reproach for him to get validation for himself as a Christian, and I've seen it over and over....like he's split in two. Which is why I think he's really has convinced himself HE didn't do anything. It's simply wasn't him. Now, don't go thinking he's a psycho. Did I mention I'm a mental health clinical? Yeah...we're a hot mess over here. But anyway, we have both been sliding farther and farther away from each other for a long time. Making attempts to make it better, but falling short. It's a whole convoluted horror story is what it is....but at the end, I know I just have to pray hard, hope he can come clean, HOPE I can make the right choices and if I choose to stay to REALLY forgive him and myself. Yeeeees...I know it's not my fault yadda, yadda. But I have been a seriously mean Witch (hence, the prior couple's and individual counseling for me?) for, oh, maybe 85% of our marriage, but in the last year really thought I was making some changes, headway, and we were trying to build better connections. We actually were, I think. But....well, he's obviously got his own stuff as well as our stuff going on. Point is, we got the good, the bad, and the ugly over here. And there will be more bad and ugly than good for my daughter, whom for religious, moral, and loving parent reasons, I NEVER wanted to grow up in two different homes. He has said he would take a polygraph. He said he'd take any test I want him to take. He did NOT TOUCH THAT WOMAN (insert male voice here). They were just 45 minutes away from both their homes, considering whether to buy a bottle warmer or baby blanket for this fictitious baby shower. That's all. Sorry- darn sarcasm comes out every time. Now, anyone getting a feel for what it might be like to cross me? Yeah, I'm not very easy on him, even when it's just forgetting something small. So, yeah, there were problems. But I told him his decisions as a result of those problems are all him to take responsibility for. I also told him that, let's just say he did not actually have sex with her, that her husband is feeding me all this because he's a jealous, proprietary latino man (by all accounts, and my meeting him...true), well he got us good. But the person who opened the door to this road was my husband (I told him). That he opened that door with the lies and deception to "go shopping and talk", and he let this "crud" (I did not say crud) into our door. And you know what? Maybe someone else is shoveling crud in because they saw an open door. But guess what? I can't tell the freaking difference between my husband's crud and the stuff someone else might be shoveling in to be vengeful, and it's his fault because HE OPENED THE DOOR. Man, I am witty. Wew- this writing is therapeutic.


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Kliz, I sense ummm frantic by your writing style. 

Please give other posters a chance to read your post. By inserting line breaks every few lines. It makes it easier on the eyes. 

Like this. Some posters will give up trying to read if the post is more like a wall of words. 

I managed to read all of your last post and must say you have a very interesting style. Your personality, even in these trying times comes through - a good sign. 

What did you mean with this? 



> I also told him that, let's just say he did not actually have sex with her, that her husband is feeding me all this because he's a jealous, proprietary latino man (by all accounts, *and my meeting him...true*), well he got us good.


Here is a good start to finding a polygrapher in your area. 

The Polygraph Place - Find a Polygraph Examiner anywhere in North America, South Africa or Australia

But check around and ask for references. Don't let your husband try to talk you out of taking one. They usually only allow a certain number of questions - usually three. 

Although they ask many more to set a baseline. But only about 3 questions that are relevant to the situation.


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Have you talked to the other woman? Is she okay? 

Have you spoken to her husband directly? Id so, does he seem 'crazy' to you or does he seem troubled, but reasonable?


----------



## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

kliz said:


> I can get a polygraph on him? Where? How? I have already done the "anything else to add" thing. I even sent him excerpts of the e-mail messages the husband sent me....see the detail? I know religion is no cover-up. EVERYONE, religious or not, is only human. But I know him, and he doesn't see it that way. HE has to be above reproach for him to get validation for himself as a Christian, and I've seen it over and over....like he's split in two. Which is why I think he's really has convinced himself HE didn't do anything. It's simply wasn't him. Now, don't go thinking he's a psycho. Did I mention I'm a mental health clinical? Yeah...we're a hot mess over here. But anyway, we have both been sliding farther and farther away from each other for a long time. Making attempts to make it better, but falling short. It's a whole convoluted horror story is what it is....but at the end, I know I just have to pray hard, hope he can come clean, HOPE I can make the right choices and if I choose to stay to REALLY forgive him and myself. Yeeeees...I know it's not my fault yadda, yadda. But I have been a seriously mean Witch (hence, the prior couple's and individual counseling for me?) for, oh, maybe 85% of our marriage, but in the last year really thought I was making some changes, headway, and we were trying to build better connections. We actually were, I think. But....well, he's obviously got his own stuff as well as our stuff going on. Point is, we got the good, the bad, and the ugly over here. And there will be more bad and ugly than good for my daughter, whom for religious, moral, and loving parent reasons, I NEVER wanted to grow up in two different homes. He has said he would take a polygraph. He said he'd take any test I want him to take. He did NOT TOUCH THAT WOMAN (insert male voice here). They were just 45 minutes away from both their homes, considering whether to buy a bottle warmer or baby blanket for this fictitious baby shower. That's all. Sorry- darn sarcasm comes out every time. Now, anyone getting a feel for what it might be like to cross me? Yeah, I'm not very easy on him, even when it's just forgetting something small. So, yeah, there were problems. But I told him his decisions as a result of those problems are all him to take responsibility for. I also told him that, let's just say he did not actually have sex with her, that her husband is feeding me all this because he's a jealous, proprietary latino man (by all accounts, and my meeting him...true), well he got us good. But the person who opened the door to this road was my husband (I told him). That he opened that door with the lies and deception to "go shopping and talk", and he let this "crud" (I did not say crud) into our door. And you know what? Maybe someone else is shoveling crud in because they saw an open door. But guess what? I can't tell the freaking difference between my husband's crud and the stuff someone else might be shoveling in to be vengeful, and it's his fault because HE OPENED THE DOOR. Man, I am witty. Wew- this writing is therapeutic.


You need a good symbolic slap across the face. :slap:

Your husband is having an affair 
He is lying to you.

The OWs husband is not acting out in jealousy, he is acting out to save his marriage. 

I think you are in the denial stage. You can not fathom that your husband would lie, deceive, and betray you. That he would have sex with his coworker/affair partner in her car. 

Get a clue or continue to eat up his lies. He is cheating on you. You saw the emails and OW husband has given you proof. What more do you need a video of him having sex with her? Keep your head in the sand and I'm sure a video will be forthcoming by OWs husband. But I'm sure your hubby would say that man in the video isn't him, only looks like him, and that your hubby is being blackmailed. 
You can choose to believe what you want. You sound like an intelligent woman. Connect the dots.

BTW: you cannot forgive him if you don't know what he's done. I think you are/will rugsweeping this affair. Good luck with that!!


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This sounds sadly very simple. Your H developed a relationship with a co-worker, probably starting a year ago, and it has gone physical. The only question about that, I think, is actually how often they have had sex.

If you can accept this & still decide to try to reconcile, then you have your work cut out for you. There are stories here of reconciliation, so it happens.

I would stop the rationalizing, though. The excuses don't pass even the mildest smell test. He and she are having a PA. Sorry.


----------



## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

Was this parking lot (they were alone together for two hours) in front of a Baby's R Us or a motel 6 ??
Where are the receipts for the baby items purchased?? Can she or her husband show proof baby items where bought??

If not, she was spreading her legs for your hubby. You need to get tested for STDs immediately!!


----------



## doc_martin (Oct 19, 2012)

I would still just calmly state that you can clear this all up very quickly with a polygraph. No fighting, no emotion. Nothing. You may be surprised at what just making the appointment will do for him coming clean. But don't give him too much time to go all out researching how to try and beat one. 

And, I would listen to the advice you've been given here. Although there are going to be exceptions to every rule, and not every story we read hear on TAM is proved to be an affair (not that I can think of any that weren't....), these good people here have a pretty good BS meter. spoken from experience.

I would say as an adult, if this is the story a friend told you about their boyfriend or husband, you could almost hear your eyes roll.


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

Oh, um. I didn't mean to say I thought he didn't have sex with her. His story is soooo stupid. My only concern is that we don't have much of a chance to move on if he continues to deny. 

For stopping the argument's sake, I speculated for a moment that let's just say he did NOT, and this jealous latino husband was trying to get revenge and making things up....it's my husband's fault all the same. It's not on me to try to determine what's true or not at this point. That's his worry. He opened the crud door, and can't cry now that someone else is supposedly using it to shovel lies to me. 

Of course, I WILL check into that polygraph.

I don't think being in denial would involve me tossing his butt out WHILE we POSSIBLY try to reconcile and go through counseling. I'm assuming it will be no less than 4 months, maybe upwards of a year? My only wavering comes in the hard work it will take, whether it will be worth it, and whether he'll be capable of manning up. 'Cause I might as well just save myself the headache if he's not capable of getting on the bandwagon.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Silverlining said:


> You need a good symbolic slap across the face. :slap:
> 
> 
> BTW: you* cannot forgive him if you don't know what he's done*. I think you are/will rugsweeping this affair. Good luck with that!


Exactly!


Its an affair whether it is EA or PA, driving 45 minutes to pick a baby shower gift? Somethings going on. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I'd bet my money it is a duck.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

kliz said:


> Oh, um. I didn't mean to say I thought he didn't have sex with her. His story is soooo stupid. My only concern is that we don't have much of a chance to move on if he continues to deny.
> 
> For stopping the argument's sake, I speculated for a moment that let's just say he did NOT, and this jealous latino husband was trying to get revenge and making things up....it's my husband's fault all the same. It's not on me to try to determine what's true or not at this point. That's his worry. He opened the crud door, and can't cry now that someone else is supposedly using it to shovel lies to me.
> 
> ...



Your biggest help will be the OWH. He is your ally, if you can gather up some more evidence from his computer, phones, phone bills, credit card statements, other co workers that would be enough for you to expose. You never know but the OWH might have more evidence, ask him to show you his cards.

Do not tolerate cake eating! Do not cave in, do not rug sweep, if he is cheating and you wish to R he needs to get a new job PERIOD


----------



## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

His "I lied to you because I knew how you would react" is BS as you know.

He might as well have said "I lied to you because I want to go on a date with OW and I knew you would not be OK with that".

If he continues to lie, there is no chance of R. If he continues to work with her - same thing - not much chance or R.


----------



## doc_martin (Oct 19, 2012)

yeah, I get that. I'd say you have "NO" chance to move on. Zero. 

But in the end, he needs to come completely clean on this. For him not to means that he isn't completely remorseful and will likely do it again. He needs to be an open book. Any detail, no matter how small cannot be left out, if that is what you need. I find that most WS feel that they are "protecting" their BS by not revealing truthfully. I find this very condescending to think I can't "handle" the truth. The truth isn't what hurts, it's the affair that hurts. 

And your timeline needs to get a little longer. I think most here feel it to be about 2-4 years AFTER complete transparency. Maybe never. I don't think your marriage will ever be "the same".

And this trickle truth nonesense that goes on merely extends that time. Or shortens it, if you get a divorce... :-D


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

doc_martin said:


> And this trickle truth nonesense that goes on merely extends that time. Or shortens it, if you get a divorce... :-D


Exactly, all clean all at once. Rarely ever happens, WS are liars and deceivers and will lie to save face, dignity, under the false compassionate pretense of "not wanting" to hurt you. I am sure the WS already has to the full extent of just being exposed as an adulterer.


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

Silverlining said:


> Was this parking lot (they were alone together for two hours) in front of a Baby's R Us or a motel 6 ??
> Where are the receipts for the baby items purchased?? Can she or her husband show proof baby items where bought??
> 
> If not, she was spreading her legs for your hubby. You need to get tested for STDs immediately!!


In front of a Wal Mart, in a large city, on Saturday. Believe you me, I have been wondering how they accomplished such a feat, with no tinted windows...

He ultimately said that they never actually went IN to buy the gift. That he bought her a cup of coffee from one of those outside vendor trucks in front of the store, and they "talked". She was giving him advice and suggestions on how to work out the marriage problems. Oh. My. Gaaaaaawd. Really? The OWH said the car never moved from the Wal Mart parking lot, but they did it in HIS truck, so I guess they could have gone around back or somewhere else. Whatever...


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Did OWH say what she confessed to?


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> Have you talked to the other woman? Is she okay?
> 
> Have you spoken to her husband directly? Id so, does he seem 'crazy' to you or does he seem troubled, but reasonable?


I have not talked to her. Sorry. I really, really, can't take on one more thing right now. Not gonna do it. I don't know her number, anyway. And really not wanting to go to my husband and tell him I'm worried about the OW. Um. No. Sorry again. I'm a bad person. You are a obviously not a bad person.


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> Did OWH say what she confessed to?


Yes. And it was mostly yawn, yawn, happy hour with coworkers (which I knew about it- group holiday thing), came to my HOUSE TO PICK UP MY MOTHER IN LAW AND DAUGHTER for a school event (I work evenings), blah blah. I mean, the only thing of interest to me was the fact that he lied where he was going Saturday (which begs the question when else did that happen?), and that she supposedly told her husband they finally crossed that line to PA Saturday. The last two details, of course, making the other yawners more significant.


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

kliz said:


> I have not talked to her. Sorry. I really, really, can't take on one more thing right now. Not gonna do it. I don't know her number, anyway. And really not wanting to go to my husband and tell him I'm worried about the OW. Um. No. Sorry again. *I'm a bad person. *You are a obviously not a bad person.


*Don't blame you ONE BIT*. Not one little bit at all. 

Her husband has contacted you only by email? How did he know it? Are you close friends? 

BTW I used to work with teachers for many years. And although there are many fine teachers. There are also far more 'affairs there' than I have seen where I work now. And there's plenty where I work too but they must be much more discreet or there's just fewer. 

Is your husband a coach by chance? What was his excuse for working "late" all those evenings/afternoons?


----------



## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

If you want to save your marriage, you have to end the affair. Find someone to watch your kids for a few hours and set up a time for your husband to talk with you.

Tell him you still want to work on the marriage, you still love him, but you are not willing to stay in the marriage under the current conditions. Tell him you cannot control him, you cannot control who he is friends with or talks to, but you can control what you will accept or not accept in a marriage. And you are not willing to accept his having an emotional and sexual affair with another woman.

Tell him that if he isn't willing to meet these conditions, you will file divorce rather than live in conditions that are unacceptable to you.

1. Tell you the truth about the affair. You already KNOW he had sex with her, you just need him to admit to it. If he continues to stick with his ridiculous story or he tells you another story that doesn't make sense, he will take a polygraph.

2. He agrees to cease all contact with her. If he works with her, he immediately begins to seek employment elsewhere. In the meantime, he handwrites a no contact letter stating how horribly ashamed he is of his behavior, how he feels terrible for risking losing the most important person in the world to him, his wife, and that if she ever attempts to contact him again he will file harassment charges against her both with the board of education and the police. The letter begins with her name only, no "dear," and ends with "signed" and his name; it does not contain any "so sorry it didn't work out," or "you will always have a place in my heart," or "I will always think of you as a friend," or any other such nonsense. He gives the letter to you to mail to her. He agrees to let you know IMMEDIATELY if they have any communication or ATTEMPTED communication. Under no circumstances should he respond to any communication from her, he should just let you know immediately.

3. He agrees to give up all passwords and access to all communication devices and accounts; he agrees not to delete any messages or browsing history; he agrees to let you know where he is 24/7 and agrees to answer your calls or texts immediately; he agrees to delete her from his contacts and block her on Facebook and bock her on any other accounts he has to the extent possible.

4. He agrees to get tested for STDs and give you the results.

If he doesn't agree, expose the affair to your close family and friends. Tell them that he has had an affair, he refuses to end it, and ask for them to call your husband to influence him to end it and return to the marriage. Then file for divorce.

In the meantime, detach from him. Speak to him only about necessary issues regarding the kids, finances, or divorce. Until he agrees to your conditions, proceed to divorce.

If he agrees to your conditions, let him move back in and work on your marriage. But to verify that he maintains no contact, buy a voice-activated recorder and some heavy-duty velcro and place it under the front seat of his car. Leave it there for at least 2-3 weeks until you can see that there truly is no contact.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> How many men would drive to another town to help a co-worker buy baby shower gifts? ?


Well, I, for one, would. Seriously. If a friend at work wanted that kind of help, I'd be there for them. Though I would tell me wife beforehand and not lie about it.


----------



## thebadguy (Dec 7, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> he agrees to delete her from his contacts and block her on Facebook and bock her on any other accounts he has to the extent possible.


Why does anyone NEED a Facebook account? As someone who had an affair, I believe it is the biggest reason adults join the site. And if he already had an affair...well...that IS the only reason he would want to be on there.

Someone..please...prove me wrong.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Well, I, for one, would. Seriously. If a friend at work wanted that kind of help, I'd be there for them. Though I would tell me wife beforehand and not lie about it.


I would not even do that for a relative.

I'd have to be strongly attracted to a woman to drive 45 minutes to help her pick out a baby shower gift.

The most I would do is text her some recommendations and that would be it.


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

thebadguy said:


> Why does anyone NEED a Facebook account? As someone who had an affair, I believe it is the biggest reason adults join the site. And if he already had an affair...well...that IS the only reason he would want to be on there.
> 
> Someone..please...prove me wrong.


I will not. I completely agree. 

Sure there may be exceptions, but we all know that women (more inclined than men) and some men are lured by drama, scandal, and just basic nosiness and curiosity. We know this is what basically happens on any social networking website.

I would say it does more harm than good and is unnecessary. I understand there are some peeps with legitimate use of these sites but honestly, what for?


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Time for him to "come to Jesus"


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

kliz said:


> Like I said, even with all our problems, he is full on family man, God fearing church leader, and is probably appalled at his own behavior. I honestly think he's convinced himself it didn't really happen and if he says it enough he'll believe it.* I know him...that's what's going on*.




Really? Did you know that he was cheating on you before the OW's husband contacted you. You only think you know him. God fearing? Family man? Riiight!


----------



## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

somebody is lying here.

i think you two should meet. get to the bottom of this, once and for all.


----------



## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> Exactly!
> 
> 
> Its an affair whether it is EA or PA, driving 45 minutes to pick a baby shower gift? Somethings going on. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I'd bet my money it is a duck.


I have never seen a man take his wife to buy a baby shower, bridal shower gift.

The only shopping that went on that day was for a room.


----------



## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

MattMatt said:


> Well, I, for one, would. Seriously. If a friend at work wanted that kind of help, I'd be there for them. Though I would tell me wife beforehand and not lie about it.


Are you seriously that naive? Or were you being sarcastic? How hard is it to pick a shower gift? Are there no stores in you town? It was Walmart not some specialty baby boutique. As a married woman I would ask my husband or a girlfriend. It's not like the average man would have a great clue about a baby shower gift. Maybe a part for a truck but a shower gift? Get real.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> *Don't blame you ONE BIT*. Not one little bit at all.
> 
> Her husband has contacted you only by email? How did he know it? Are you close friends?
> 
> ...


Thanks for your empathetic responses. Latest news: He still looks in shock. Crying, saying he was so stupid, voice raw....annnd still denying anything sexual happened. Agreed to polygraph.

He wrote everything out, and it sounds sincere, but of course there is always going to be a HUGE doubt that the OWH is telling the truth more likely than my husband.

Now- I have tried to get more information from OWH like could he give me her cell number so I can check his phone records, details about not only that it happened, but what were they doing before, after, what was said. He's now silent. No response. 

I found her number on my own, and called it. It's been disconnected. I contacted her through work e-mail which I guess she'll get tomorrow, pleading with her to tell me her version. The phone records indicate about 5 1-2 minute phone calls over the last 2 months. That does go along with his timeline about when he started asking her advice about what he should do to better things at home. Mmmm-hmmmm. 

It does disturb me that the whole list of things the OWH sent me about their entire relationship truly was a yawner, (ran down the street the store from where they work to buy a Santa hat for the student's WInter show, went to group happy hour for holiday party, annnnd that's about it), except the last line saying "and they had sex in his truck". 

Again, trying to get some more information from him, but now he is not responding. To be honest, just simply knowing he lied to me to go meet her was OBVIOUSLY at least the beginnings of a slippery slide off the "just friends" slope and we would be separated now just for that anyway. So, it wouldn't change my current situation. But my future depends on knowing whether he's still lying to cover his butt, or really coming clean and being sincere after this debacle. I think we can at least TRY to work it out through counseling if he's capable of being transparent. 

He came over today (I didn't tell him why, just asked him to come) and he handed his phone over when I demanded it first thing. I didn't talk to him at all for a long time while I checked his phone contacts with the phone log, texts, and got into his Facebook account to root around. He had already deleted the messages from her. I told him that was a really stupid move because it just points even further into the not just friends direction. We are already firmly in that camp. 

We told our 5 year old today that Mommy and Daddy are taking a time out because we hurt each other feelings. :-( She scolded us that we needed to play nice. :-(


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

Sorry, also forgot to say he asked me to send the OWH the whole thing he wrote out. He called their actions stupid and infantile, and told OWH he was sorry for leaning on HIS wife when he should have been working things out on his own, that this was a meeting and nothing more, but which obviously has potential for disaster and ruin for our families. 

Anyway, we'll see. I think we may do that polygraph that he agreed to.


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

Oh, and he told me he would be willing to go to his administrator, to explain privately what has happened, and to try to get her agreement to keep a log of his departures, activities, and contact with this woman. She probably would do it. Not sure if this is a good move?


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Love, just love your daughter's advice. Good advice for everyone. If only....

The list from OWH was indeed a yawner as you say except for one little teenie weenie thing. Yeah the 'sex in the truck thing' 

OTOH since OWH made such a big production of 'running down the street" and "wearing or buying santa hats" and now he is silent - to him "sex" could have been touching genitals through clothes or even kissing on lips.

Not good things for sure but not hot monkey sex either. Still either way, as you put it - a slippery slope indeed. 

MY sense, from your posts, is that not much happened. Not harmless - but not much. 

More than a slap on the wrist but not marriage-ending. What do you think?

"Play nice!"


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> Love, just love your daughter's advice. Good advice for everyone. If only....
> 
> The list from OWH was indeed a yawner as you say except for one little teenie weenie thing. Yeah the 'sex in the truck thing'
> 
> ...


I think it's what I wanted to hear, Lol, but what I want to hear and what is true, right, etc...well only time will tell. Like I said, just the meeting itself was a betrayal, and symptomized major problems we really had been trying to work out, but now know we can only go forward 200% very seriously to work on. 

We are going to stay separated. I told him we both need some emotional distance and time, to see that life as we knew it could be over and a new life (single, sharing custody), would be possible. Right now, both are so unimaginable for us that maybe we want each other just so we don't have to be alone and share our daughter.....I don't know. I want him to choose me. I want me to choose him. As we are now, and not be stuck in the past versions of us, which we have both changed for the better and worse over the last 10 years. Maybe we need to know who WE are, only then can we choose each other. So, either way, separation stands.

Yeah, more hot, jealous, latino OWH might have been so pissed someone dared even THINK of his wife....ahh, who knows?

Did you see my other comment after the one you responded to? About my husband saying he would do to his administrator, explain everything, and ask her to keep a log of his comings and goings, and activities? Sounds weird to me, but it's so tempting.


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

kliz said:


> Oh, and he told me he would be willing to go to his administrator, to explain privately what has happened, and to try to get her agreement to keep a log of his departures, activities, and contact with this woman. She probably would do it. Not sure if this is a good move?


First, I want to tell you that you seem very 'together' and level headed under these conditions. Are you perhaps in shock or are you usually this clear-headed?

Oh, I had not read the post above. It's a good gesture on his part. And really can be helpful to you. I doubt the school will cooperate. They have reams of paper work and reports to do on a daily basis (Public HS?). 

But if the administration is agreeable then they can do that for period of time (six weeks?). I don't think it's a good idea to have public employees assigned to check on your H. I know it's only a few minutes. But if I was the admin I would not want to get involved in something that has the potential for civil action - like a divorce. 

I know it's remote but as a former educator I know I would not want this task. Unless I really liked the teacher and felt more than a little sympathy.


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> First, I want to tell you that you seem very 'together' and level headed under these conditions. Are you perhaps in shock or are you usually this clear-headed?
> 
> Oh, I had not read the post above. It's a good gesture on his part. And really can be helpful to you. I doubt the school will cooperate. They have reams of paper work and reports to do on a daily basis (Public HS?).
> 
> ...


No, I'm usually very logical and level-headed. It's been one of my husband's complaints. Oh, FYI. Just got message from OWH. Gave me her cell, but said they never used that to communicate, it was always on Facebook. And she deleted the messages, so he couldn't show them to me. In his message, he said he got her to confess to everything in writing and that he's using it to get full custody of their child in the divorce. I am going to be asking him for a copy of that, and I hope he will give it to me. HE also said my husband told her he does not love me and that I am "cold" and don't like to have sex, which has been a HUGE issue between us for a long time. It sounds like him. 

Soooo....back to square one. I confronted him with this new information. He's still sticking to his guns. Admits he told her something like that but not in those words about me, but not "literally". Whatever that means. 

I. Am. So. Devastated. And tired of this emotional roller coaster. At some point, I'm going to have to stop digging for the truth and either choose to forgive him and work towards a better life, or choose to cut ties.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Betrayed Spouses Bill of Rights
In a world where a marriage is as likely to end as not, we sometimes forget what a partnership is in the early days after discovery of infidelity. We lose ourselves in the desperation to hold onto your loved one. Remembering your rights will help you no matter which path your marriage takes.

1- You have a right to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. By having an affair, your spouse has closed off the relationship with you and opened one with the OP (other person). You have a right to insist this is reversed for your healing and to assure that loyalties have been realigned.

2- You have the right to trust- but verify. Trust has been broken, ‘snooping’ is not snooping. It is verifying that someone proven to be a liar, sneak and cheat has changed their ways. Like an addict, a WS(wayward spouse) will often go back to their emotional fix. You have a right to verify this is not happening.

3- You have the right to insist there are only two people in the marriage. That choice was made when you made vows to each other. Even a moment with a third person is too much. You owe your WS no time to ‘think about it’. There’s a marriage or there’s none.

4- You have a right to know who the OP is, the flip of this is you do not have a right to harm or harass this person. Hold yourself to a better standard than the OP did.

5- You have the right to choose to give the gift of reconciliation or to divorce. You have the right to take some time to make that choice. If you one day realize you cannot live with the truth of what has been done, you have the right to walk away.

6- You have the right to insist your WS gets STD testing done and to see the results. Even if the WS claims it has not gotten physical, as many WSs will admit to “only a kiss” when it has gone much further.

7- You have the right to insist that your WS initiates and honors NC (no contact) immediately. You have a right to have input and to be a witness to how NC is established.

8- You have a right to set and enforce boundaries. This is not blackmail or any of the other negative words your WS might use. This you protecting yourself.

9- You have a right to hold onto evidence for as long as you need it to feel safe. Your WS has created an atmosphere of risk and danger. It is natural to have a safety net to counteract what has been brought into your marriage.

10- You have a right to know who your WS’s friends are and the nature of their interactions. If it is kept a secret, it is not healthy for the marriage and therefore something is amiss.

11- You have the right to out the affair to anyone you deem will help you and/or your marriage. This is not your secret to keep, this is not your shame to hold. You owe no protection to those that failed to protect you.

12- You have a right to heal on your timeline. As long as you are making steady progress, you are healing. It is a slow process and a WS that says things along the lines of, “You’ll never get over this!” does not have a full grasp of the damage betrayal causes. This is a healing process that takes from 18 months to five years.

13- You have a right to yell, cry, fall apart and otherwise handle this in any way that relieves some of the devastating pain, shock and loss of trust. Your world has been turned on its end. You do not have the right to physically, verbally or otherwise abuse your spouse.

14- You have the right to insist on a true marriage. A marriage of partners, where you love, honor and protect each other. If you feel your marriage is missing one of these components, either fixing it or leaving are your only two options. You don’t have the right to cheat and/or turn someone else into a betrayed spouse.

15- You have a right to love yourself. Often the betrayed have forgotten themselves as an individual. This is the optimum time to remind yourself that you are unique and lovable in your own right. That as much as you might love your spouse, you should love yourself enough to refuse any sort of mistreatment.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugex...fa5d44ccb651f3&bpcl=40096503&biw=1680&bih=881

Folks here have been able to recover deleted facebook messages. Can't find the exact link but you might start here


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Welllll, 
Don't look good does it?

Still, if he's 'hot blooded' and a total alpha male. I can see where even a 'kiss' would be grounds for separation/divorce. And frankly I think I'm with him - especially if there was a history of such. 

That 'trash talk' about you from him. I believe it too. I believe he said it - not that it's accurate. 

Guys will say anything to get into a woman's pants. That he said anything like that means it was probably just that, an attempt to get her to drop her skivvies. And looks like he might have succeeded. 

If you've been having issues - it was probably a 'free ticket' as he saw it. 

Bad vibes now. 
1. He has lots of opposite sex friends
2. flirty
3. dubious 'gift' run a good distance away (the distance alone would be a deterrent to an innocent guy)
4. Lied about whereabouts
5. continues to lie in the face of evidence

Naaw doesn't look good at all. Sorry this is happening to you. Get yourself to a doctor for a checkup if you haven't had one in a while and if you're having trouble sleeping or have periods of depression mention them. 

Surround yourself with friends or family when needed.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

kliz said:


> No, I'm usually very logical and level-headed. It's been one of my husband's complaints. Oh, FYI. Just got message from OWH. Gave me her cell, but said they never used that to communicate, it was always on Facebook. And she deleted the messages, so he couldn't show them to me. In his message, he said he got her to confess to everything in writing and that he's using it to get full custody of their child in the divorce. I am going to be asking him for a copy of that, and I hope he will give it to me. HE also said my husband told her he does not love me and that I am "cold" and don't like to have sex, which has been a HUGE issue between us for a long time. It sounds like him.
> 
> Soooo....back to square one. I confronted him with this new information. He's still sticking to his guns. Admits he told her something like that but not in those words about me, but not "literally". Whatever that means.
> 
> I. Am. So. Devastated. And tired of this emotional roller coaster. At some point, I'm going to have to stop digging for the truth and either choose to forgive him and work towards a better life, or choose to cut ties.


The OW's husband sounds like he's a bit over the top here. 

The chances of them having sex in a pick up in a walmart parking lot is pretty small. Those parking lots are pretty public. The OW mentioned that her husband was going to get a gun. She might have written what he told her to write. 

Another reason that I think he is over the top is that he thinks that something written by his wife while he's pressuring her will hold up for him to get custody of the children. I doubt that he will get custody for a forced confession.

What state do you live in? Is it a no-fault state?


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

How was your marriage/sex life before this episode. You said he was a religious man are you religious and what are your views on divorce.

BTW, since it was brought up, sex 3 times a month or less is considered a sexless marriage by professionals in the psych field. Men can generally not accept this.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

http://www.marriedandhappy.com/blog/435/definition-of-sexless-marriage/


*How does a husband or wife know if they are in a sexless marriage?

Are you in a sexless marriage if you and your partner have sex once a month? Once every two months? Twice a year? What determines if a marriage is a “sexless” marriage?

Well, I hear other people waffling around this question without really answering it…so I’m going to step out and tell you the answer plainly…

If you and your spouse do not purposely find a way to express yourselves sexually WITH each other at LEAST once a week…once every 7 days, THEN YOU ARE IN A SEXLESS MARRIAGE.

Now, I can hear the gasps and whistles and see the eyebrows rising…but here’s the truth…married couples who are in a TRULY happy marriage…one where BOTH the husband AND the wife are genuinely happy…join together in sexual expression AT LEAST 2 – 3 times a week.

Even when happily married couples are separated…perhaps by business travel…or away caring for a family member in need of assistance…they STILL express their sexuality together over the phone or by video.

(Note: Typically, in a sexless marriage, there is one person who wants sex and one person who does not. I’m going to speak towards the person who does not want sex in the remainder of this article. If you are the person who DOES want sex more often, then jump down to the resources listed at the bottom and check out those options.)*


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Kliz your husband is offering a compelling story line.

The effectiveness and much of the mental and emotional damage caused by gas lighting lies in the victims "want" to believe it.

This is Occam's razor.

When you remove your individual details, and your well articulated thought processes from this thread... This is the same story we have all heard and many have experienced ourselves thousands and thousands of times.

Accept and come to grips with the worst case scenario being beyond likely, and closer to a certainty. The lies and deceit likely being fed to you right now are going to do far more damage than the act itself. Do both of you a favor, don't listen to anything coming out of his mouth right now. 

IMO, That is your best course of action for the time being. 

This part is a tiny step on a very long a hard journey, best to protect him from himself by not listening to his frantic damage control.

IMHO


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The OW's husband sounds like he's a bit over the top here.
> 
> The chances of them having sex in a pick up in a walmart parking lot is pretty small. Those parking lots are pretty public. The OW mentioned that her husband was going to get a gun. She might have written what he told her to write.
> 
> ...


Awwwww, you guys are feeding into the delusions I want to maintain. That is so sweet. Lol. Hahaha. So, I just played the empathy card with him as a last ditch effort to try to get him to confess. I know he's not a bad person, it could happen to anyone in a moment of crisis, God forgives all, etc. All of which I do believe. We are all only human, and yes, I am a very religious person. I told him that he opened the door to allow the Devil into our home, and if the devil then decided to make more lies not even my husband's, well who let him in the door? Continued lies are only the Devil's work, when we need God here instead. We have an appointment with our pastor later this week. I think, if nothing else, that will get him to fess to stuff he hasn't already. If not, nothing will. Orrrr, what he's saying is true. Doubtful, but, whatever. 

About the sex. It has been an issue. I DO have a problem with intimacy. It's something he's ALWAYS complained about. But in the last year, we've been at least 4 times a month. Sometimes up to 7. Yes, I track it. OCD anyone? I have tried to be more demonstrative, but it's not in my nature to do so. But I've tried. It has never been enough for him. For a time, about 6 or 7 years ago, he was also obsessed with porn. Was totally in denial about that as well. But it stopped. But, yeah, affection (not just sex) has been difficult between us. But better for awhile. So, it sort of rings true what this man is saying he heard from the OW. It WOULD be something my husband complained about. 

Well, bud. Hope you weren't planning on THAT improving after this cluster. 

Sorry- anger and rage coming out again. I need to channel calm and logic...yeah right. 

I have also been super emotionally reactive. Not abusive, but probably darn near close. Very critical, afraid to give up control (childhood abuse issues, blah blah), overly angry at even little things. Struggling on and off with depression. I know my symptoms, so I seek help whenever it gets bad. And I have actively been changing and trying to be different. We previously went to therapy together and me individually. So, yeah. All issues. His repression and denial does not help. I'm more of a logical, categorize the problem and attack it, which is sometimes to aggressive for him. And when he doesn't jump on the your-wife-knows-best train, I get angry at him.

Anyway, after my little talk with him, he thanked me for saying all that (about everyone being human and having weak moments), and said he would write me an e-mail with all the details of all the conversations, themes of discussions with her, and anything else he has left out. We'll see. But be sure I will "talk" everyone's ears off when I hear.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Not having a good sex life with ones wife gives most men a feeling of inferiority if you will. Especially if they have limited experience. It can also be bad for the realationship if he has previous experience with someone else and knows things can be better.

You need to resarch this and see what you can do to improve things. If he feels this has been going on for a long time, he has no doubt felt he has come up against a wall and, at least to a crtain extent, given up. It seems like in the bedroom a lot of women expect their men to shoulder the job of making things happen. What new thing have you brought to the table recently?
MOST PEOPLE CAN HONESTLY SAY NOTHING


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

chapparal said:


> Not having a good sex life with ones wife gives most men a feeling of inferiority if you will. Especially if they have limited experience. It can also be bad for the realationship if he has previous experience with someone else and knows things can be better.
> 
> You need to resarch this and see what you can do to improve things. If he feels this has been going on for a long time, he has no doubt felt he has come up against a wall and, at least to a crtain extent, given up. It seems like in the bedroom a lot of women expect their men to shoulder the job of making things happen. What new thing have you brought to the table recently?
> MOST PEOPLE CAN HONESTLY SAY NOTHING


Since honesty is a big thing for me, I'll have to say "nothing". 
He had only been with one person before me, but he is the only man I've ever had an orgasm with and I've told him that. I know this is a problem, which of course is intertwined with a whole bunch of other problems both between us and with me individually. So, yes. I do recognize it. And it has been getting better. The problem is that I am a person who will lay it all out there, talk, talk, talk, try to make a plan of action, and he is shut down. Doesn't talk about things. So, while I thought we were making headway, and was still actively trying (if anyone hasn't read the "Scream Free Marriage" it's a MUST), he was shutting me out more and more and welcoming OW in instead.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

kliz said:


> Since honesty is a big thing for me, I'll have to say "nothing".
> He had only been with one person before me, but he is the only man I've ever had an orgasm with and I've told him that. I know this is a problem, which of course is intertwined with a whole bunch of other problems both between us and with me individually. So, yes. I do recognize it. And it has been getting better. The problem is that I am a person who will lay it all out there, talk, talk, talk, try to make a plan of action, and he is shut down. Doesn't talk about things. So, while I thought we were making headway, and was still actively trying (if anyone hasn't read the "Scream Free Marriage" it's a MUST), he was shutting me out more and more and welcoming OW in instead.


Have you researched the communication issue between men and women? Of course it may be more than that but its like getting cats and dogs to understand each other. Historically men and women have different roles and different languages/interpretations.

One of the funniest studies I checked out was how llittle girls and little boys behave on the playground. In my own experience, I tried to make my daughter a bit of a tomboy. When I nearly died from an avalance of naked Barbies I gave it up. Interestingly though, she stuck with me whenever I had to work on her car. Three days straight one time.


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

chapparal said:


> Have you researched the communication issue between men and women? Of course it may be more than that but its like getting cats and dogs to understand each other. Historically men and women have different roles and different languages/interpretations.
> 
> One of the funniest studies I checked out was how llittle girls and little boys behave on the playground. In my own experience, I tried to make my daughter a bit of a tomboy. When I nearly died from an avalance of naked Barbies I gave it up. Interestingly though, she stuck with me whenever I had to work on her car. Three days straight one time.


Oops,did I forget to mention that we are from different countries too? Our native languages are different. His is Spanish, mine English. We almost always communicate in Spanish because English is still difficult for him. So, from the beginning, we've not only had the man/woman thing going on, but a whole host of cultural differences when it came to communication. 

And now, having my mother in law living with us (oops, did I mention that??) I can see the HUGE cultural difference again. He has assimilated a lot, but there are still those differences. But, we've always had to deal with all that. Actually, that's one of the things with the lying (which he does all the time). WHat I call a lie, he calls something different. His mother does this too. She can never give a straight answer. It's like it's discourteous to give a straight answer. There's hemming, and hawing, and changing minor details that make you look a little better, a little bit more prestigious, more status, more about the facade....that has been a problem with him ALWAYS. But always over stupid stuff, like when asked on some sort of application what his salary is, he'll add a few digits, or if he thinks I'll make a big deal out of something (did I mention my reactivity?), he'll change the story to what he thinks will be less trouble he has to go through. He does it automatically, for his convenience. Not to say latinos do this, but his mother does the same thing. It drives me crazy. Communication has been an issue on so many levels. I am way more concrete and literal, and more "american" straight-forward and blunt. Bluntness and sarcasm are not well recieved in that culture. And especially that I'm communicating in my second language has made it more difficult to fine tune or be more tactful in my communications- has actually probably made my directness even more pronounced.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

This is not a cultural thing but a familiar thing (given how is his Mom it's no wonder); liying to avoid troubles, to embellish, to look better, nicer... it's lying. Period.
I'm sure many people here can attest it within different cultures.

Make him acountable for his lies, aLso to MIL!


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

Acabado said:


> This is not a cultural thing but a familiar thing (given how is his Mom it's no wonder); liying to avoid troubles, to embellish, to look better, nicer... it's lying. Period.
> I'm sure many people here can attest it within different cultures.
> 
> Make him acountable for his lies, aLso to MIL!


Yeah. I called him out on it today, when I asked whether the messages from her on Facebook were still there. His repsonse "I'm not sure how long they remain in the box", asked again, his response "They might be gone, not sure", called him on his BS, then "yes, I deleted them". I told him he has a major problem. One I've addressed before and he's brushed off as me being a hysterical over-controlling...something. He FINALLY acknowledged he does it, and it is automatic. He agreed to individual counseling. He said he will try, but since it's been so ingrained, he might make errors on impulse, and that if he pauses before answering me to think before he answers anything I ask, I'll think he's making something up. Um, yeah. You're SOL buddy if you can't get a grip on this. Ya really are. And so are me and my daughter.

And, oh yeah, I had some choice words for MIL yesterday and today. I told her if she proves to be a venomous presence in this house, she can kiss our shelter and support goodbye. I told her I can't have her whispering in his ear about how unreasonable his wife is not to believe him, that he's just a dear, good friend, and why won't I understand that? She tells me, but he's never lied. He doesn't lie. Even after all the evidence, she still says it. I told her to her face the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

My husband met with me today in our home. He had a conversation with his mother about the lies he told me about this situation and to set up a meeting with that woman, and asked her not to make comments to me about that. This has typically been his roll between me and her. He really is like 2 different men. One reasonable, educated, calm and empathetic (actually why so many consider him such a good friend). When I'm flying off the handle with kid stuff and other stresors, he's talking reasonably with our daughter, quietly fixing things...

Grrrr!! If only humanity could be black or white. Good or evil. But no one (well, Jeffery Dahmer, maybe) no one is all evil or all good. 

Anyhoo...still waiting on that Tell All e-mail from him. Hope he makes it good this time.


----------



## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

your husband is being very evasive. he's only confirming what you already know or what you've found out on your own. never owning up to anything, himself. doesn't sound good at all.

like you said, the lying is what's killing his chances. if it was sooo innocent, why lie and continue lying?

he's "lying by omission."


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> Welllll,
> Don't look good does it?
> 
> Still, if he's 'hot blooded' and a total alpha male. I can see where even a 'kiss' would be grounds for separation/divorce. And frankly I think I'm with him - especially if there was a history of such.
> ...


So, got more from OWH. He won't give me the whole signed document she confessed. But he said to have the polygrapher ask theses specific questions:
1) Did they have sex in the back of his truck?
2) Did they kiss on school grounds (which he just 2 minutes ago confessed to me)
3) Did they have oral sex?
4) Did he touch her genitals?

It's now like I'm coaxing an effing scared cat from under the bed. "Come on, now, you can do it. You confessed one more intsy weentsy thing, you can do it. Just a couple more details to go. You can do it!"


----------



## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

I can certainly understand the sentiment that says if he acknowledges fault, agrees to change, you can forgive him. 

It's far more frustrating to have someone continually lie. Do note you do not have to prove the obvious to him, and he doesn't get to continue by coming up with ridiculous explanations. (if she finds you in bed with another women, just deny it man, the story goes).


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

kliz said:


> So, got more from OWH. He won't give me the whole signed document she confessed. But he said to have the polygrapher ask theses specific questions:
> 1) Did they have sex in the back of his truck?
> 2) Did they kiss on school grounds (which he just 2 minutes ago confessed to me)
> 3) Did they have oral sex?
> ...


That's the way cheaters work. They generally do not admit to anything until you have the evidence and you know about it. This is exactly what I went through.

So ask him those questions now. Tell him that he can pay for a polygraph test or tell you the truth now.


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> That's the way cheaters work. They generally do not admit to anything until you have the evidence and you know about it. This is exactly what I went through.
> 
> So ask him those questions now. Tell him that he can pay for a polygraph test or tell you the truth now.


I did. Still waiting to hear back from him. Thing is, we don't have a mine and yours pile of money. Everything is ours, as our family finances are so super tight, that we each only get enough at the end of the pay check to pay for gas, and maybe a cup of coffee. 

So, I'll be paying, or we'll be paying. This takes money from me and my daughter as well. 

Thanks for the suggestions.


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

kliz said:


> So, got more from OWH. He won't give me the whole signed document she confessed. But he said to have the polygrapher ask theses specific questions:
> 1) Did they have sex in the back of his truck?
> 2) Did they kiss on school grounds (which he just 2 minutes ago confessed to me)
> 3) Did they have oral sex?
> ...


Wonder why he won't cough up the "confession"?

I think hanky panky was involved, but as one poster wondered (think it was Pit) was it freely given or was it beaten out of her? 

You gotta wonder why he had GPS'ed her car. He must have had suspicions or a tip that his wife was seeing someone. There's some things being hidden. Could be nothing of importance to you or it could mean something else.

Question for ya: Did OWHs initial revelation about what happened come as a complete surprize to you? Or had you suspected something was amiss?


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> Wonder why he won't cough up the "confession"?
> 
> I think hanky panky was involved, but as one poster wondered (think it was Pit) was it freely given or was it beaten out of her?
> 
> ...


He just confessed to all but actual sex. Yeah right. Lying pig!! His mother still thinks he didn't do anything but be a good friend. Not HER son. No, there must be something wrong with me.


----------



## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

El momento de verdad

"all but actual sex"

I'm confused. What did he cop to? Kissing? Oral? Everything but intercourse?

You kinda knew it already though, right? Not shocked?


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> El momento de verdad
> 
> "all but actual sex"
> 
> ...



Yeah knew it. My current angst is the fact that he almost has us dead and buried as a family with the continued lies. I am now taking more steps in the separation to firm up plan B, not just hoping and praying that Plan A will work. Because that requires him to own up, be transparent, and stop these word games. 

He copped to oral, kissing, genital touching, but OMG!! NOT INTERCOURSE! That would be WRONG. (He didn't say that. It's just amazing to me that he thinks I'd believe it, and that he still can't admit it).


----------



## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

kliz said:


> So, got more from OWH. He won't give me the whole signed document she confessed. But he said to have the polygrapher ask theses specific questions:
> 1) Did they have sex in the back of his truck?
> 2) Did they kiss on school grounds (which he just 2 minutes ago confessed to me)
> 3) Did they have oral sex?
> ...


This is how it works. Unless you take tougher action, like filing for divorce if he doesn't come clean. Otherwise, keep coaxing. It's perplexing, but most cheaters just can't spill it all at once.


----------



## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

1) Did they have sex in the back of his truck? *NO (come on, kitty, just one more thing to confess to, you can do it)*

2) Did they kiss on school grounds (which he just 2 minutes ago confessed to me)

3) Did they have oral sex? YES

4) Did he touch her genitals? YES


----------



## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

This is what kills the marriage/reconciliation most of the time, by the way. Not the affair itself, the lies and the trickle truth afterwards. The longer it goes on, the harder it is to reconcile. Makes them very unattractive.


----------



## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Hey Kliz

I have a suggestion for you.

Throw your MIL out of your home.
Have her move in with her terrific son.
On days of child swap he can pick your daughter up.
If you work late at night only then can MIL stay over fr babysitting.

And tell your husband that until he tells all the truth to you and his mama he is considered " persona non grata" in your home.

HM64


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> Hey Kliz
> 
> I have a suggestion for you.
> 
> ...


Working on it....I am not going to get ugly until I have some protections in place first. I have opened another bank account and moved money, hidden my daughter's passport, etc, etc...this requires some planning.


----------



## Silverlining (Jan 15, 2012)

Great job, keep it up!

Keep thinking logically. 

Your husband has followed the cheaters script precisely. 

The act of actual penetration is a moot point when it comes to cheating IMO. The line was crossed when he confided in her about your marital issues, persued her and began an emotional affair, kissed her at work, lied about his whereabouts only to later find out he kissed, fondled, and performed oral in his truck. He then chooses to lie to your face repeatedly, blame shift, and trickle truth everything. To me, it shows his true character. 

Proceed with divorce, but understand once you kick him out and serve him with papers, he will miraculously appear repentant. He will claim he had an epiphany and he's a changed man. He loves, you, doesn't want to loose you, will do anything to save the marriage. In other words, he will have a come to Jesus moment. But understand it's only a ruse to get you to back down. 

It takes years of IC and MC for him to change and truly see the error of his ways. 


You are a strong woman and you are proceeding on the right path

Good luck


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

Silverlining said:


> Great job, keep it up!
> 
> Keep thinking logically.
> 
> ...


Oh. I actually believe he's repentant to a point. His internal struggle right now is a spiritual one, a strong one. He is a well respected, well liked, well thought of leader in the church, one of the best teachers in his school, and his struggle is that he wants his family, but right now, he wants to save face more. He can't even admit to himself he did this. I honestly believe that. He has been severely depressed for about a year now, admitting he's felt farther and farther isolated, away from God, away from his family, and he found someone who made him feel something (false) and ran with it (she started working there just recently). I really pity him. But I pity me and my daughter more.

I have no idea what time will tell. We were scheduled to start marriage counseling next week anyway, and I told him I'd go once to explain everything but that he then had to go individually to see the therapist. Because unless he can TRULY come to Jesus, come to terms with what he has done, make individual changes, we have no hope of making changes for ourselves as a couple and moving forward from this. So I told his IC a must, then MAYBE reconcile after MC, but it's all in his (and HIS) hands.


----------



## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

kliz said:


> Working on it....I am not going to get ugly until I have some protections in place first. I have opened another bank account and moved money, hidden my daughter's passport, etc, etc...this requires some planning.


cooler heads prevail and you are right. Plan away.

Also there is a travel watchlist where you can add your daughters name to it so hr cannot take her out of the country.

Google it and add her name.


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

Silverlining said:


> Great job, keep it up!
> 
> Keep thinking logically.
> 
> ...


He has been crying, not eating, physically getting sick like I am, and I think he WANTS to be able to do what's needed, but his shame is so deep....He is meeting with our pastor today, and the therapist we are scheduled to see is licensed in mental health as well as pastoral counseling. I did that on purpose (even before this event) because I knew he was depressed, I knew he was spiritually dry and needed some strong guidance and uoplifting from another Christian because he had lost his way. Even before this... So, I do know he is struggling, but unfortunately, unless I see from him what we all know are the signs of true change, repentance, willingness to be transparent, well nothing is moving forward.


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> cooler heads prevail and you are right. Plan away.
> 
> Also there is a travel watchlist where you can add your daughters name to it so hr cannot take her out of the country.
> 
> Google it and add her name.


Thanks!!!


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

kliz said:


> Thanks!!!


I googled that, and it does not seem possible without a court order. I couldn't find anything.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

kliz said:


> He has been crying, not eating, physically getting sick like I am, and I think he WANTS to be able to do what's needed, but his shame is so deep....He is meeting with our pastor today, and the therapist we are scheduled to see is licensed in mental health as well as pastoral counseling. I did that on purpose (even before this event) because I knew he was depressed, I knew he was spiritually dry and needed some strong guidance and uoplifting from another Christian because he had lost his way.


What he REALLY needs is to experience the consequences, to hit rock bottom. Sounds like you're still coddling him, just like his mom does. How will he ever learn if you keep patting him on the head and watching him throw his fake performance?


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

turnera said:


> What he REALLY needs is to experience the consequences, to hit rock bottom. Sounds like you're still coddling him, just like his mom does. How will he ever learn if you keep patting him on the head and watching him throw his fake performance?


Oh. Not watching anything. He and I have been apart since the day I found out. I took my kid and went to my mom's, then asked him to leave the next day. We have met 2 times, and been in contact for me to get more details once I get information from OWH. 

We are very concerned about our 5 year old and her welfare, and that she doesn't get caught up in this. I am NOT going to penalize her just because he didn't think of her when he was thinking with his shlong. So, for right now, we are swapping out weekly. I am in our home with kid this week, and next he comes. He's crashing on someone's couch. So MIL is there at the current house. He told me he wanted me to stay in the house, he'll come for visits, he'll pick her up every day from school, he'll run her to gymnastics, etc...he didn't want me to have to move around either (we don't want our daughter to be shuffled). And he is crashing on a couch because his pay checks are going to continue to cover our home expenses, with nothing left over extra. But, I told him honestly, I don't want to be stuck with MIL for that long of time spans, and that my daughter is totally in love with her Papi, and he should be there some too. So, that's what's going right now. 

So, I am not coddling. Jerkoff is feeling some consequences. I think he's still in shock. Honestly, I think he may even be suicidal, so deep, deep is his shame and inability to reconcile what he did. And I have seen the show before with other couples, the "I'm going to kill myself" threat. He's not doing that, he is just dead, vacant. The times I've talked to him he can't even get words out thrrough his closed throat. It's like someone with laryngitis. But. He. Still. Cannot. Even. Believe. Himself. This whole good/bad, saint/evil, sinner/perfect thing he has going on is something he's always struggled with. Like he splits himself, and it's not just about this event. 

That's why I know he needs IC before MC, but by then I think it will be just OVER. Sorry for him. Sorry for me. Sorry for my family. Sooooo NOT sorry for MIL. She can take a hike, and will be as soon as I can manage it.


----------



## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

kliz said:


> I googled that, and it does not seem possible without a court order. I couldn't find anything.


Register her for the Alert and hide her existing passport or get a safety deposit box just to be on the safe side.

Prevention


----------



## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

kliz said:


> Yeah knew it. My current angst is the fact that he almost has us dead and buried as a family with the continued lies. I am now taking more steps in the separation to firm up plan B, not just hoping and praying that Plan A will work. Because that requires him to own up, be transparent, and stop these word games.
> 
> He copped to oral, kissing, genital touching, but OMG!! NOT INTERCOURSE! That would be WRONG. (He didn't say that. It's just amazing to me that he thinks I'd believe it, and that he still can't admit it).



And yet it seems he is still losing weight because he is not eating etc etc. It seems he is under duress. Keep pressuring him to stop trickling the truth and to spill the beans once and for all.


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> And yet it seems he is still losing weight because he is not eating etc etc. It seems he is under duress. Keep pressuring him to stop trickling the truth and to spill the beans once and for all.


Oh, don't worry, I have laid it on. I pulled in the Pastor for a consult. And I told my husband two stories. Ready kiddies?

Told him to imagine this: I'm on the floor, and he kicks me, hard. It hurts, yes. I'm wondering "How could he do that to me, why would he do that?". But I'm injured, not dead. I can get up. The wound can heal, even though it might take time. And I reach up to him, for his help in getting up. 

But instead of giving me his hand, he pulls out a knife and begin stabbing me with it. Now THIS is mortal. THIS is a killing blow, and the blood is running out fast. The blood of the soul of our family is fast running out, and he needs to act fast to stop the flow before I a dead.

I told him that the first incident with the kicking is what he did with the affair. The second is what he is doing every time he tells me a lie, and I KNOW them to be lies. He is killing the soul of this family.

I told him another one, but it's longer and had a devil/God, SELL the soul of your family theme (instead of kill the soul...)

Darn I'm good. It's all so true, but it's good. Lol


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> And yet it seems he is still losing weight because he is not eating etc etc. It seems he is under duress. Keep pressuring him to stop trickling the truth and to spill the beans once and for all.



BTW, Cleanjerksnatch....my husband was on the olympic weightlifting team in his country when I met him. Traveled to other countries competing. So, like, thought you might like to know you might have something in common. Lol. JK. 

I'm seriously losing it to be so flippant and goofy at a time like this. I think I'm just riding high I made it to my first day back at work after finding out and I did not break down. Yay me!


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> And yet it seems he is still losing weight because he is not eating etc etc. It seems he is under duress. Keep pressuring him to stop trickling the truth and to spill the beans once and for all.


Ok. Sorry. Getting a little manic with lack of sleep. About 4 hours in 3 days sounds about right...

One more thing. I just realized, knowing my husband and his total denial of ugly acts he couldn't possible have done...that he is possibly defining "having sex" as complete penetration AND having to have come all the way to have called it "having sex". I just sent him a message defining having sex as any penetration of his penis in vagina, no matter if he came, as "having sex". We'll see what he does with that.

I mean, for real, having a hard time picturing all this going down (Haha- pun) in the back seat of his Dodge Ram truck, with no tinted windows, at lunch time, on a Saturday, at a Wal Mart parking lot in a big city. It HAD to have been a quickie. And he usually can't come if there is distraction (well, that's with me. All this excitement he's been feeling with sneaking around doing the forbidden may have helped things along...)


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

2asdf2 said:


> Lack of sleep or not, I admire that you can keep humor in your posts.
> 
> Now,...
> 
> ...


Benadryl, Shmenadryl. I got some clonopin, and going to bed, and having hot juicy animal sex dreams about an entire army of cute movie stars. Lol. Orrrrr, maybe just gonna go into a black void until morning. Either is okay with me. 

Just so no one thinks I'm a drug pusher, I have a legitimate prescription I haven't used since I had a miscarriage in September. Not looking for more sympathy, just making sure the Feds don't show up at my door. I haven't used it since end of September until tonight.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

BTW, the GPS my not be that accurate. They may have only been close to the walmart. It depends on the model of the GPS.


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> El momento de verdad
> 
> "all but actual sex"
> 
> ...


So, this is probably my last post, at least for awhile. I definitely would like to thank everyone who gave me really useful information. Especially Walkonmars, Chapparal, and so many others who were consistent and compassionate voices over the internet. And I don't know if it was here on my post, or if I read another post from someone suggesting reading "Not 'Just Friends'" by Dr. Shirley Glass. It has been a life saver. 

Update: Yes, I still have my separate bank account, and yes I still have my daughter's passport hidden, and yes I am still have PTSD symptoms.....but I also have hope. We are separated, and trying to figure out how this can work. I do believe he wants to, and is deeply ashamed of what amounted to about a 2 month emotional affair, slid into kissing and stolen moments, culminating into this CLUSTER-#$^% from last Saturday.

He has been reading all the articles I've sent him, and the excerpts I've sent him from Dr. Glass' book, which I found online, and even some explanations of her trauma recovery model I found in Spanish. The day he read that one, he came over here for a scheduled talk, and was almost incoherent, crying, flipping through the pages and saying "how did they know ME?", "It's like they wrote this about me!!", "What kind of monster am I?", pointing to certain lines and saying "There! It's me right there!". He has been willing to answer my questions, even the repetitive, obsessive ones. He has told our Pastor, and met with him twice. He has told his mother, his 2 younger brothers, and is buying into the addiction theory aspect of this dynamic.

That is why he is willing to make sure he has internal as well as external accountability factors. And, get this, he is willing to choose one of our mutual friends from his workplace (one we agreed on) to tell everything to, so he knows that someone there knows and this person cares about him and us, so will keep him accountable. We both agreed and suggested the same person right off the bat. I hate to pull someone into this mess, but she is happily married, we've known her and her husband for a couple years, and she has the blunt yet empathetic personality of someone who will tell him and me if she sees red flags.

In fact, she did see red flags, and mentioned to him half kidding once how his little "thing" with this other coworker was going. She is the only one that noticed lines were being crossed, but like me and like my husband, probably couldn't imagine him going so far. 

So, I have hope. We are so far from out of the woods, but at least we have a map and a compass. The only question is whether someone is going to want to give up and call in the rescue helicopter to give up before we've found our own way out of the woods together. 

So, again. Thanks everyone. Maybe in future dark moments I may visit you again, and look forward to hearing from my empathetic listeners.


----------



## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Since this was an affair at work is the OW or your WH going to quit the job? This is needed for successful R...no contact at all, period.


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

vi_bride04 said:


> Since this was an affair at work is the OW or your WH going to quit the job? This is needed for successful R...no contact at all, period.


Regarding his work, he can look but it doesn't mean he'll find anything. And I don't want to lose my house because he's out of a job. Neither of us has control over what she does, but I am willing to bet she is gone within a couple months. She is not originally from around here, and from what my husband and information from her own husband, it doesn't seem she is very connected to her kid or husband. She's likely to move out of town. 

In reading research and expert articles, there are situations where recovering cheaters make it work while still having to see or interact with the OW. They work in different departments, so will rarely have direct interaction. He has described likely places and times he will be in contact with her. Today there is an all staff meeting, which she will be at. 

This is why I needed some safeguards in place for my sanity. He is actually really buying into the theory of infidelity being like an addiction, and is willing to build in external safeguards for accountability while working in Individual Counseling on his internal safeguards. So, in the meantime, we have identified a "friend of the marriage" as Dr. Shirly Gass encourages. She is a married teacher at his school, whom we have known and been personal friends with her and her husband for years. I hate to pull her in, but I know she has high regard and respect for my husband and cares about us as well, and she can help identify any red-flags. We are both meeting with her today at his school to explain everything and enlist her help. I think I will feel better knowing that he knows that someone at his school has eyes on him. 

I think he's sincere. He has been willing to read the research articles about recovery and is talking openly about how they reflect him and us and is taking seriously the steps outlined in the articles for recovery.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

There is only one thing wrong with calling this an addiction. It takes the onus OFF of your husband and onto a mysterious 'thing' that caused him to do it. If he doesn't approach this with 100% humility (I screwed up, I am weak, I deserve to be left), he will just 'let' his addiction pull him down the same path in another year or two or ten.


----------



## kliz (Jan 1, 2013)

turnera said:


> There is only one thing wrong with calling this an addiction. It takes the onus OFF of your husband and onto a mysterious 'thing' that caused him to do it. If he doesn't approach this with 100% humility (I screwed up, I am weak, I deserve to be left), he will just 'let' his addiction pull him down the same path in another year or two or ten.


You are right. And I guess to be more succinct I described it that way here, although we haven't used the word addiction when discussing this. He acknowledges with humility, which I've observed to this point- no excuses, anger at himself, willingness to tell those who can be supportive spiritually and to our marriage, etc. The biggest change I noticed when he made the switch was he stopped minimizing, making excuses, etc. When I say addiction aspect, acknowledging he was weak, he was wrong, and that until he is spiritually and morally stronger and the person he always thought he was, he may need external checks. Like giving me all his passwords, agreeing together who friends of the marriage are, agreeing he must identify 2 male confidants for extreme emergencies and to bounce things off of while STILL sharing those things with me (and if he doesn't have 2 male confidants, he will seek to cultivate more male friendships that we can both agree are friends to the marriage), etc. I said addiction because the experts liken the withdrawal period right after an affair ending like an addiction. They say grief and withdrawal of loss of good feelings, passion, etc....is a hard time. 

Since I don't think he's a psychopath, I think these things are genuine. He has sobbed every time he sees a new symptoms of stress in our 5 year old. She is having nightmares of being left by her parents, of going somewhere else to live, having high anxiety, and is constantly reassuring US of her love....it's tearing us both up. That in and of itself would not make me consider reconciling IF I didn't see these first steps in him. I know a continued dysfunctional dynamic would be more harmful to her than just doing a clean break, IF I didn't think we could both work on this and be bigger and better than before. Like it almost NEVER was between us.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds good.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> I would not even do that for a relative.
> 
> I'd have to be strongly attracted to a woman to drive 45 minutes to help her pick out a baby shower gift.
> 
> The most I would do is text her some recommendations and that would be it.


Attractiveness doesn't come in to it. I was raised to help anyone if I could.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Attractiveness doesn't come in to it. I was raised to help anyone if I could.


Women don't ask men for shower gift help unless they have an ulterrior motive.


----------

