# Warning signs ?



## ross105 (Aug 6, 2011)

Hello,

Been married 20 years, no sign of any infidelity or attraction towards any other man from wife all these years. However last month I noticed something I've never seen before.

Went for a picnic with our close friend and his wife, the man in question (I'll call him OM) is a friend of this close friend also joined us with his wife. We have known the OM for a few years now but never been a close friend nor part of our close friend circle. Never thought of him as someone my wife could carry on a lengthy conversation with. Noticed the following signs:
1. The walked together from about the car park to the picnic spot, she seemed to be in step with him. She usually would do this the other women. I found this strange but did not think much about it.
2. Once we reached the spot she continued her conversation with him, ok, but what took me aback was her body posture, it was facing him (he was seated, she was standing), her stance was open and was about 2 feet away. I've been married long enough to notice that she never maintained this stance with any other man in front of me. 
3. When leaving he ran his hand along her arm and she reciprocated (perhaps did not know each so well to hug good bye, or maybe did not do so because I was there). Again for just an aquaintance I found this touching out of place.
4. She connected with him on whatsapp that day because she expected to receive some picnic photos on this mobile. I checked her the messages on her mobile, the conversation was normal with a thank you for the photos, followed by the message 'Hugs' from my wife. He did not reciprocate in any romantic way.
There has been no new messages and my wife does not lock her phone (which is a good sign). 

I do not think anything is going on at this time, but is something brewing up ? Can anyone shed some light on her body language her posture and arm touching good bye. Was this some kind of subconscious attraction, if it exists ?

Thank you


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Is he married? Would there be any reason they would engage in other conversations in the future...like business or similar? When she was talking to him did she play with her hair?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

There's a little bit to be concerned about, yes.

At no time would another man be allowed to run his hand along Ws arm without an immediate response publicly from me.

The fact they connected via an app deepens the concern.

This isn't a guaranteed problem but if any early potential trouble signs were on a list these would be included.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

I would say yes. Pretty much any and all dating books/advice will tell you that if a woman touches you, for any unnecessary reason, that she's flirting/attracted.

I would put a boundary in place before this grows into an issue.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I'd pay attention to what was going on, but not make a big deal about it at this point.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

The whole thing seems odd to me. I think you should be talking to your wife about this and let her know that you're feeling uncomfortable.

How would you describe your marriage/relationship?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

A tree does not this flower thing until the bud appears.

The bud appeared.

Now, it seems, she is ready to flower, to open and spread her petals. The OM may not be into her, she definitely is in to him.

Remember, she did this in front of you and OM's wife. Who does that but one most interested in something.

Find out what that something is.

Yes, it is also possible that they have another connection, some hobby or interest that piqued both their interests (in each other).

This, in itself, may not be a concern.

The touching at the end was a connection to somewhere, something else. It was a friendship thing....
And so soon it hath ballooned! He struck some nerve within her.

A red flag? Maybe.


She wants more of his company, he concurred with the same arm stroke. OM's wife may have noticed this also and may put the kabosh on this new friendship.


I think this wife, her flower has blossomed. She has given up some sweet scent to this new fellow. 
Keep tight tabs on her.



The Typist I-


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Yes, not a normal thing to do. The app also lets you do video face to face instead of text. With your wife stance spread and is speaking volumes, you and all your friends just were witness to this. Married or not time to set new rules down for and to your spouse. And her response will shed some light into her thinking. Damn another spouse losing to what is proper and what is not. Just reverse you and a knock out drop dead woman, would she have a issue? I do believe she would, now frame to her what you and others saw.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Yep, better nip it.

Don't be be mean but don't be nice, hold your ground. But in holding your ground put it in the context of you love her and your marriage and you are not going to let anything even her mess that up.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

I am not saying women can not talk to men, but the touching says a lot.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

You just experienced what is know as a GUT FEELING. You can do alot right now before it gets to complicated, and it's better to err on a positive note than a regret not confronting when the time was appropriate. Best to you and no fighting for you marriage is never bad. Tell her no whatsapp and to defriend after all she already has the pictures.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Your biggest indicator is your gut.

If you have a good and open relationship with your wife, I would advise you to talk to her about this to get some boundaries in place.

Tell her you can tell she really likes him but she made you uncomfortable with her behavior.

Mrs. Conan would not be offended by me talking honestly and with vulnerability to her if we were in your shoes.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

If it is totally out of character for her to do these things, and your radar is going off, definitely talk to her, without being accusatory. What harm can come from telling her, “Baby, your interactions with MR BBQ made me a little uncomfortable”, and then describe to her what you noticed.

Am I certain you have something to be concerned about? Not at all. That said, this is your marriage, and having great communication really makes such a huge difference in the handling of things. Get it off your chest, and even if it is nothing at all, she will be aware you are paying close attention, and also know how much you care about your relationship with her and your marriage. 

Think about your wording. How you say this will make a BIG difference in how this will go.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I talk to men all the time.

And I connect with some on social media.....always for public conversation.

But I don't touch men I'm not flirting with....particularly someone else's husband.

Yuck.

The last guy I touched on the arm I started dating and have been seeing him for 9 months or so.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Wow...I bet I touch men that I am friends with on the arm sometimes while we are visiting, and I am not at all flirting with them. I touch women too. 

I gesture a lot and am also a big hugger. From reading this, I may need to rethink my actions.


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## rafaelandy (May 8, 2013)

Based on your story:

-there is definitely a "connection" between your wife and OM...perhaps subconciously. 
-one or two signs is nothing, but several signs taken together is something else.
-SHE connected with him via whatsapp "for the photos"...i think this is an excuse for her to connect with him again ("...HUGS..."???)
-DON'T IGNORE YOUR GUT FEELING

Like others who shared their opinion, talk to her calmly about this. 

Nip this in the bud...


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

ross105 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Been married 20 years, no sign of any infidelity or attraction towards any other man from wife all these years. However last month I noticed something I've never seen before.
> 
> ...


Something _IS_ going on, a budding relationship that will only get stronger unless it is nipped. It is a red flag that this is out of character. She's so attracted to this guy that she was blatant (although subconsciously) with her showing him her attraction. The 'Hugs' is a red flag. The whatsapp connection is a red flag. Was he the only one there who could take pictures?

Whether you discuss it with her or not, watch for whether her phone remains unlocked. I believe whatsapp is popular for being able to not leave traces of conversations, not totally sure about this app.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

If you gut is telling you something is not quite right, then listen to your gut. Do not say anything to her, mouth shut, eyes wide open. Act normal and observe for now. If there is something going on you will eventually find out. Just do not reveal what you are thinking.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

Sorry mate. You’ve got a “runner” on your hands. Stop it now. Don’t buy the “we are just friends” or he’s just a nice guy crap.
And sorry, how does she know about What’s App?
Classic cheater app. 
Or
Only teenagers use it ( I had teenagers)

You sure this is her first rodeo?


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

aine said:


> If you gut is telling you something is not quite right, then listen to your gut. Do not say anything to her, mouth shut, eyes wide open. Act normal and observe for now. If there is something going on you will eventually find out. Just do not reveal what you are thinking.


Just wait until she cheats and then just divorce her? Not sure I understand this strategy.


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## niceguy47460 (Dec 23, 2018)

The change in behavior and the connection on WhatsApp is a bad sign . You better be vigilant and keep watching everything she is doing .


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

ross105 said:


> . I checked her the messages on her mobile, the conversation was normal with a thank you for the photos, followed by the message* 'Hugs'* from my wife.




HUGS???

Why so much confidence with this acquaintance? All this touching and ...in the end "_hugs_". 

It's just inappropriate. Way too much. It's also disrespectful how he would touch her arm in front of you (or even without you) ....


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Spicy said:


> Wow...I bet I touch men that I am friends with on the arm sometimes while we are visiting, and I am not at all flirting with them. I touch women too.
> 
> I gesture a lot and am also a big hugger. From reading this, I may need to rethink my actions.


It isn't out of character for you and your husband hasn't been uncomfortable about it apparently.

OP's wife was behaving out of the norm and warning bells were going off for him so probably a lot different than your situation.:smile2:


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Some people touch a lot. Does your wife normally? 

It sounds like they've met or know each other. Not a first time acquaintance.

You can send pics thru text or email. Why use that app?

I'd check my phone bill online see if anything jumps out.

Mouth shut, eyes and ears open. May not be anything but is odd behavior for sure.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Also, you can delete texts on convo and it will appear to be a normal plain simple innocent text. Be on the ready. Most relationships don't start by " hey let's have hot monkey sex and keep it just between us" no it starts simple how you doing thank you for the pictures and it was sure nice to meet you .


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

Check for other messaging apps installed on the phone (Kik, Signal, Telegram, Hangouts, WeChat, etc.) as well as the more common Skypes (& Facetime). Also, some games have chat capability. 

TBH, WhatsApp is the basic messaging app (along with FB) preferred by 30+ers, teens would never use it. WhatsApp is fine for group chats, but personal chats with other men (with the ability to delete) is dangerous.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

ross105 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Been married 20 years, no sign of any infidelity or attraction towards any other man from wife all these years. However last month I noticed something I've never seen before.
> 
> ...


Whats App... this needs to go. There are many ways to communicate with apps that don't delete conversations automatically. I suspect OM knows this. OM married? Do you mate guard?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

How are you doing @ross105 ?


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## Oldtimer (May 25, 2018)

The familiarity of their or her actions sends up a red flag to me, that perhaps more has gone on prior to the bbq. I agree that unless very close friend, the stance, the touching, the giving him all the attention while walking with the group is definitely a break in previous actions. Has she done this with others in the group?

Let’s face it, I know that I and friends of both sexes will touch each other slightly when chatting, just to prove a point or ensure the others attention is on what’s being said, but a lingering sliding down the arm suggests more.

All this followed by Whatsapp connection? Your wife is clearly reaching out. As I said, the whole interaction with this other person would have alarm bells clanging in my head.

Talk to her and ask if she realizes what’s happening. You will get the “ he’s just a nice guy” or other such drivel. Put a stop to the beginning at the beginning if you know what I mean.

This is my opinion and just that, an opinion as I know nothing about you or your spouse. Take it for what you feel it’s worth. I wish you and your wife the best in dealing with this.

OT


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> It isn't out of character for you and your husband hasn't been uncomfortable about it apparently.
> 
> OP's wife was behaving out of the norm and warning bells were going off for him so probably a lot different than your situation.:smile2:


Yeah he has never said anything nor did my XH. I’m more so worried that the male friends I visit with would think I am hitting on them OMG!


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Spicy said:


> Wow...I bet I touch men that I am friends with on the arm sometimes while we are visiting, and I am not at all flirting with them. I touch women too.
> 
> I gesture a lot and am also a big hugger. From reading this, I may need to rethink my actions.


You don't need to rethink anything.

I think every action that we do depends on the context, time, place, mood, environment, people around us, the relationship and confidence we have with them and so on. 

If it's out of OP's W character to act the way she did, he has got something to concern about. 
if his W has always been like this with her guy friends, then she might be floating within her personality type. 
Judging by the OP, that's not her usual type - therefore red flags!

I touch my guy friends in the arms (or they touch me) when we laugh or joke ... but the context, the place, the relationship and our long-time friendship allows it. 

With an acquaintance, no, I wouldn't do it! Never have and never will. it's just common sense to keep the needed distance. 

So, touching the arm is not much of a problem as the situation when, how, who ...etc


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> Whats App... this needs to go. There are many ways to communicate with apps that don't delete conversations automatically. I suspect OM knows this. OM married? Do you mate guard?


C'mon, don't make me think you're blaming Whatsapp! 

It's like blaming FB for cheating!

Really??

Even though emails, one can cheat and have flirty and kinky exchange. It doesn't matter what the app is, it's HOW you use the app.
YOU CONTROL THE APP, not the app you.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Ross in 2014 you said "True, however I did forget to mention the culture is quite conservative. I've never seen my wife's other friends doing anything like that. I certainly would have a word with my wife if she revealed anything like that. At that time I was having a conversation with another prettier woman, I wonder if that had anything to do with it. I fail to understand women.... "

You were here with the opposite happening with you. Now you put forward this change from your wife. It seems like you both struggle with boundaries. Why did you not discuss this with you and your wife already. It's only will work if she and you want to remain together in a loving relationship. If not let her go and you move forward but history will repeat it's self if you do nothing to change it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Spicy said:


> Yeah he has never said anything nor did my XH. I’m more so worried that the male friends I visit with would think I am hitting on them OMG!


LoL! I get touched a lot and there could be many contributing factors but I don't think the majority of the touchers want to mess up my marriage or their own.:wink2:

I don't touch much unless someone is hurting. I automatically hug or give an affirmative squeeze of an arm, wrist or hand when someone, especially women, are hurting.

I'm definitely not flirting.:smile2:


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

Ross,

Nip this **** in the bud right now. Trust your gut as you have been advised. I would blow this up and let your wife know how you feel.
Your observations from your initial post should set off alarm bells. Times like this require bold action. You should also consider placing a VAR in her car as well as a VAR in the room in your house where she spends the most time.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Spicy said:


> Wow...I bet I touch men that I am friends with on the arm sometimes while we are visiting, and I am not at all flirting with them. I touch women too.
> 
> I gesture a lot and am also a big hugger. From reading this, I may need to rethink my actions.


As CH said it is a behavior change. This is something OP’s wife doesn’t do. Also, I think you are leaving out an important part, OM initiated the contact and she reciprocated. 



To OP:
Unlocked phone doesn’t mean anything. My wife’s behavior changed and I normally was not a snoop. So, I saw some inappropriate messages because of my own behavior. She knew I wouldn’t snoop, but was wrong. 

Check it now before it crosses a point you can’t handle. A small part of me wished I had of snooped longer, but the more in the past it gets I am glad I set it right early. Don’t wait until cheating happens, this place is littered with ruined families.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Tilted 1 said:


> I am not saying women can not talk to men, but the touching says a lot.


Yes, normally, this strokes volumes.

No, if she is normally this touchy-feely person.
Some people are this. 

This, Joe Biden style person, even wife.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

lovelygirl said:


> C'mon, don't make me think you're blaming Whatsapp!
> 
> It's like blaming FB for cheating!
> 
> ...


With this OP seeing so many red flags he thinks he is in a bull fighting arena.

It is not smart to ignore a red flag. To do so will get him gored. To let his WW add an app
that is known as a tool for PA's is insanity.

He is not friends with the OM. His wife does appear to be that close to the OM's wife.
Simple thing to do is tell his WW that app is history an they are both going NC with that
other couple.

It is always the WW that plays the Controlling Card when her BH sets boundaries to mate
guard his wife.

If photos need to be shared or thanks given for the wonderful time this is something that
requires wife to wife contact.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

oldtruck said:


> With this OP seeing so many red flags he thinks he is in a bull fighting arena.
> 
> It is not smart to ignore a red flag. To do so will get him gored. To let his WW add an app
> that is none as a tool for PA's is insanity.
> ...


She's already labeled a WW now? 

OP- Blowing this out of proportion could push her away. Talk about it with a calm head and don't accuse.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Marc878 said:


> Some people touch a lot. Does your wife normally?
> 
> It sounds like they've met or know each other. Not a first time acquaintance.
> 
> ...


Wow, I did not think of that, there was no reason to install that app. 

That app is a cheating app. And she had the balls to do it right in front of him.

Just Wow...


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Spicy said:


> Yeah he has never said anything nor did my XH. I’m more so worried that the male friends I visit with would think I am hitting on them OMG!


I just wouldn't do this. Even if the guys knew it was innocent their wives may see it as a boundary violation. I know that I would not be ok with a woman putting her hands on my guy unless she was a close friend of mine.

If you know everyone involved is ok with it and knows its innocent then you're ok.


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## ross105 (Aug 6, 2011)

Thank you all for your prompt response and advice.

I've been reading your replies the whole day but was unable to reply from work. 

There certainly is much to think about.
1. Whatsapp is like the default messaging among all our friends and groups, however it now does seem the photos were more of an excuse to connect.
2. My wife does greet close friends and relations with a hug, but she is not overtly touchy.

Whilst we do have a physical relationship, it was the emotional side that was lacking. I have been working on this for the past 2 weeks with good response. However I will be setting up google location history when possible, will setup a var if I notice any unusual messages.

The OM and his wife are from a culture that usually do not hug or touch members of the opposite sex.
The touch in questioned happened fast, the OM's wife was not around at that time. I shook hands with him first, he then greeted my wife from what I saw in the corner of my eye a small stroke on her upper arm. My wife reciprocated the same way. For those who understand body language what's the motive behind this action; supportive, sexual etc ?


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## ross105 (Aug 6, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> How are you doing @ross105 ?


Fine, thank you Conan. I should have confronted her immediatley but it did not strike me at that time everyhing happened pretty fast. I will however be on high alert, will monitor messages (I do not think much is going on right now since OM is out of town for the past 3 weeks). She has also not password protected her phone. I'll set up google location before she does.

Regards


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

ross105 said:


> The touch in questioned happened fast, the OM's wife was not around at that time. I shook hands with him first, he then greeted my wife from what I saw in the corner of my eye a small stroke on her upper arm. My wife reciprocated the same way. For those who understand body language what's the motive behind this action; supportive, sexual etc ?


Don't go down this road or google body language. None of us were there to witness the touching. You saw it out of the corner of your eye. I am not downplaying how you feel at all. It bothered you and that's enough. I'm just saying us giving theories would be incendiary guessing, we didn't see it happen.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

delupt said:


> Check for other messaging apps installed on the phone (Kik, Signal, Telegram, Hangouts, WeChat, etc.) as well as the more common Skypes (& Facetime). Also, some games have chat capability.
> 
> TBH, WhatsApp is the basic messaging app (along with FB) preferred by 30+ers, *teens* would never use it. WhatsApp is fine for group chats, but personal chats with other men (with the ability to delete) is dangerous.


I understand that in your neck of the woods they might not. But everyone in my teens High School uses What's App amongst others. Just an FYI


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

It never hurts to be situationally aware. However, I think I'd be more worried if there was an unusually lengthy or affectionate hug.

I don't typically shake hands with women friends after chatting with them at a picnic (we usually just very briefly hug upper shoulder to shoulder). I think it's noteworthy that your wife didn't step up to hug him. The brief arm touch could just be a quick way to say goodbye and avoid a hug or a hand shake. 

Without being confrontational, don't hesitate to ask what were they talking about (for so long) while walking and after they arrived at the picnic table?
The subject of that conversation may provide an explanation for their bonding at the picnic (and more important - in the future).

And ask her if he was the only one to take pics? Did your wife ask anyone else for copies of their photos? 

Does she sign all her texts with 'hugs'? Some message apps provide for using a standard sign off ...

Do their paths cross? Has there been a previous opportunity for them to form an emotional connection prior to the picnic? 
For example, do they work together or share the same gym or church?


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

I'm with marduk on this. Don't react yet but watch closely.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ross105 said:


> Thank you all for your prompt response and advice.
> 
> I've been reading your replies the whole day but was unable to reply from work.
> 
> ...


What culture, @ross105?

Is your wife of that culture, or not? Which country are you living in? Would touching like that be considered "normal" where you live, or not?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

ross105 said:


> The touch in questioned happened fast, the OM's wife was not around at that time. I shook hands with him first, he then greeted my wife from what I saw in the corner of my eye a small stroke on her upper arm. My wife reciprocated the same way. For those who understand body language what's the motive behind this action; supportive, sexual etc ?


Listen, not to be rude, but after everything everyone has written, are you really asking this question? 

Really? Come on man...


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

oldtruck said:


> With this OP seeing so many red flags he thinks he is in a bull fighting arena.
> 
> *It is not smart to ignore a red flag.* To do so will get him gored. To let his WW add an app
> that is known as a tool for PA's is insanity.
> ...


I don't know if you understood my point but what I was trying to say is that regardless of the means that the spouse uses for inappropriate messages (whether it's FB or Whatsapp or Viber or Instagram....) this is not as important .... and the app should NOT be blamed for the uncontrolled actions of someone. 

Sure, OP needs to observe very carefully the actions of his W but that's not to blame Whatsapp for her actions. 

She's the only one to blame, regardless of the app that she's using. 
@Yeswecan was blaming WhatsApp, while I blame OP's W.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

The best protection is a happy marriage. You can either spend your time and energy looking for evidence that might not even be there, or put that energy into doing something to prevent it from ever being an issue.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

lovelygirl said:


> I don't know if you understood my point but what I was trying to say is that regardless of the means that the spouse uses for inappropriate messages (whether it's FB or Whatsapp or Viber or Instagram....) this is not as important .... and the app should NOT be blamed for the uncontrolled actions of someone.
> 
> Sure, OP needs to observe very carefully the actions of his W but that's not to blame Whatsapp for her actions.
> 
> ...


The point is that is not her using apps. Is that suspicious behavior, suddenly adds an app that is
known to be widely used by cheaters. An app that automatically deletes incriminating evidence
that cannot be recovered.

Also I am sure they both have FB to share photos.

Also why not just text or email photos.

One for the wife to ask the OM in person.
Thing when asking for photos by phone, if I wanted photos I would ask the husband.
If my wife wanted photos she would ask the wife.

No cross pollination allowed, if you can catch my drift.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

oldtruck said:


> why not just text.


How do you send photos by texting? Multimedia message? 
In my phone that function doesn't work.



> or email photos.


Email is outdated. Too much work to send photos, IMHO.

But I agree with you that in any case, she should've contacted OM's W. 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

lovelygirl said:


> How do you send photos by texting? Multimedia message?
> In my phone that function doesn't work.
> 
> 
> ...


I can send a photo by email from my phone as quickly as I can do it by text or any other method.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

manwithnoname said:


> I can send a photo by email from my phone as quickly as I can do it by text or any other method.


Just an FYI on this... 

This functionality that MWNN is describing had been the standard for at least 5 years. 

There are a few people that have old plans and have kept them that can have trouble with some of this. 

If the account, the account and the time frame that it was set up, was from an old configuration and it never was changed, then the MMS is not automatically configured like it is now days. 

So there we ZERO reason to put Whatsup on her phone or use that to communicate. 

I think OP will find out if he digs that they are already having an affair, but it is hard to tell for sure with the info provided. 

His wife surely wants to have an affair, I think that much is clear...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I have WhatsApp on my phone and I have never used it to message a man. Some of my friends use it to group chat. A friend of mine used it for work coordinating with their group. 

WhatsApp doesn't cause affairs anymore than text message or facebook messenger does.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

lovelygirl said:


> I don't know if you understood my point but what I was trying to say is that regardless of the means that the spouse uses for inappropriate messages (whether it's FB or Whatsapp or Viber or Instagram....) this is not as important .... and the app should NOT be blamed for the uncontrolled actions of someone.
> 
> Sure, OP needs to observe very carefully the actions of his W but that's not to blame Whatsapp for her actions.
> 
> ...


The app is a means to an end. Whatapp is a well known app for doing things other than simple communication. We also have to ask, was this app on OP phone already or was it offered up as a means to communicate by the OM? Further, I was advising the OP to be leery of this app.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I have WhatsApp on my phone and I have never used it to message a man. Some of my friends use it to group chat. A friend of mine used it for work coordinating with their group.
> 
> WhatsApp doesn't cause affairs anymore than text message or facebook messenger does.


Granted, but that is not what we are saying... 

There was no need. If it was just need to send pictures there was no need. No, the app was downloaded and installed for something else. 

FYI, you can group chat with regular text as well. Not that some apps don't make it more convenient and cleaner. I guess she needed a cleaner way to text her BF...

BTW, WU, if it is not the default, can be configured to auto delete all msgs, that is why it is used for cheating. Further, the app uses the cell network to transmit data so there is no record that way. 

There is a lot about this thread that has red flags, but the app is about the biggest. 

Hide and watch, if OP goes into detective mode, he will probably find out she is having an affair.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

lovelygirl said:


> C'mon, don't make me think you're blaming Whatsapp!
> 
> It's like blaming FB for cheating!
> 
> ...


Lovelygirl,

Yeah, I blaming a app. Are you serious? The app does not type what it likes. People do. This particular app is used by some for things other than simple communication. The app should be scrutinized. The OP made aware of what the app is and how it operates. The app deletes on its own. Leave not much of a trail. Emails leave a trail for most. Many delete emails only to have their significant other find it in the trash bin or sent files. I can say without a doubt my W will delete an email and think it is really gone. Tech savvy she will never claim to be. Why did the OM use this app an not the plethora of others available? 

It is best the OP understands the Whatsapp and all it entails.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AliceA said:


> The best protection is a happy marriage. You can either spend your time and energy looking for evidence that might not even be there, or put that energy into doing something to prevent it from ever being an issue.


This may be true but some of these people are very good at hiding and looking happy. Some cheaters will say they were happy they just got intoxicated with the idea of having the excitement on the side. And some of these folk do this in every relationship they ever had. 

Not to say this is the MO of his wife, but just to say be mindful of that. A lot of times this happens because because of stunted emotional growth, or hidden family issues from years past.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

BluesPower said:


> *I guess she needed a cleaner way to text her BF...*


This is exactly why some people on this site are unhealthy and toxic to people coming here for advice. 

She is not a WW. She does not have a boyfriend. Some people prefer whatapp for picture sending and group messaging.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> She is not a WW. She does not have a boyfriend. Some people prefer whatapp for picture sending and group messaging.


Other then making silly faces with cats ears or eyeglasses appearing when using this app, I know of know one that uses it to send pictures or group messages. But that's just me. The app is well known to be a means to communicate without leaving much of a trail. OP should be made aware to scrutinize this app.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I think you should do your research but I don't think there is anything wrong with asking questions. People even the most faithful spouses get tempted. Depending on the type of marriages you have there is noting wrong and it may even be productive to say, hey I noticed this what's going on here? I am not really comfortable with this. Look if my wife said that to me I admit my first reaction would probably to be defensive but I love my wife enough to really think about what she was asking. A good example would be an app that she was uncomfortable with. Just the request would start a deeper conversation about everything. Conversations in marriage are always good. 

In fact, OP lets assume that nothing has happened but your wife is being tempted. You say that you have struggled with emotional connection, now is the time to have a conversation about that. I would never be the one to blame a spouse for being cheated on. I firmly believe that it's only the cheating spouses responsibility. But I would suspect there are a lot of spouses that were cheated on wish that they could have worked on issues before it happened. Even if the work involves the potential cheater working on themselves before they cheat. But I would also make it known that there is no chance to stay together if it happens (even if there IS a chance). Fear is a good motivator. 

Maybe have her read this. 

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=640690

Now that part is up to you.

All that said, if it is happening or is going to happen you need to be aware, so I would not stop researching until you are absolutely sure. There are plenty of stories where the talk is had and it seems like stuff was headed off but it was still ongoing and had been for a while. If she is already cheating the talk will not change that so keep your eyes open.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This is exactly why some people on this site are unhealthy and toxic to people coming here for advice.
> 
> She is not a WW. She does not have a boyfriend. Some people prefer whatapp for picture sending and group messaging.


That was kind of a joke... BUT I think it is either IS accurate, or will be soon. 

Her behavior that OP describes is the behavior of a WW. Bottom line. You can argue all you want...I have seen this too many time. 

I am not however saying the she IS having an affair, but I do say that she is ready... Like I said, lets see if he is a good detective...


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Yeswecan said:


> Lovelygirl,
> 
> Yeah, I blaming a app. Are you serious? The app does not type what it likes. People do. This particular app is used by some for things other than simple communication. The app should be scrutinized. The OP made aware of what the app is and how it operates. The app deletes on its own. Leave not much of a trail. Emails leave a trail for most. Many delete emails only to have their significant other find it in the trash bin or sent files. I can say without a doubt my W will delete an email and think it is really gone. Tech savvy she will never claim to be. Why did the OM use this app an not the plethora of others available?
> 
> It is best the OP understands the Whatsapp and all it entails.


Exactly!! and if she is tech savvy, hence is why she is using so called app IMHO.


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## ross105 (Aug 6, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> What culture, @ross105?
> 
> Is your wife of that culture, or not? Which country are you living in? Would touching like that be considered "normal" where you live, or not?


OM and his wife are indian buddhists, 
We are indian christians and comparatively more westernised, our immediate friend circle are similar to us. We live in London UK. For us greeting with hugs for occassions, dancing with friend's wife etc are normal, so touching I guess is pretty normal.This is not the case with OM and his wife.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

sokillme said:


> This may be true but some of these people are very good at hiding and looking happy. Some cheaters will say they were happy the just got intoxicated with the idea of having the excitement on the side. And some of these folk do this in every relationship they ever had.
> 
> Not to say this is the MO of his wife, but just to say be mindful of that. A lot of times this happens because for stunted emotional growth, or hidden family issues from years past.


No better words said, that hold truth as sokillme has stated.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

ross105 said:


> OM and his wife are indian buddhists,
> We are indian christians and comparatively more westernised, our immediate friend circle are similar to us. We live in London UK. For us greeting with hugs for occassions, dancing with friend's wife etc are normal, so touching I guess is pretty normal.This is not the case with OM and his wife.


At this juncture keep you eyes open and ear to the ground. It may be nothing but verify all the same.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Yeswecan said:


> Other then making silly faces with cats ears or eyeglasses appearing when using this app, I know of know one that uses it to send pictures or group messages. But that's just me. The app is well known to be a means to communicate without leaving much of a trail. OP should be made aware to scrutinize this app.


I think you are thinking of snapchat. 

WhatsApp is just like facebook messenger, it doesn't auto delete anything. Lots of people use it.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I think you are thinking of snapchat.
> 
> WhatsApp is just like facebook messenger, it doesn't auto delete anything. Lots of people use it.


Could be. I know of no one that uses Snapchat either for things other then silly faces. The point being, there are many apps to communicate. Why this particular app. It should be scrutinized.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Yeswecan said:


> Could be. I know of no one that uses Snapchat either for things other then silly faces. The point being, there are many apps to communicate. Why this particular app. It should be scrutinized.


Why? Because some people prefer it. That's it. Some work groups use it. It's easy to use and doesn't require a social media account to access. 

It's no harder or easier to delete something off WhatsApp than it is to delete something off a twitter message or facebook message or text message or email. 

My WhatsApp syncs to my icloud so I can retrieve messages if I lost my app.


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## ross105 (Aug 6, 2011)

BluesPower said:


> Listen, not to be rude, but after everything everyone has written, are you really asking this question?
> 
> Really? Come on man...



Yes, because I've touched women on their shoulder but not on the arm. So is there a difference in touching the shoulder and touching the arm, what do women think about the two ?


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

ross105 said:


> Yes, because I've touched women on their shoulder but not on the arm. So is there a difference in touching the shoulder and touching the arm, what do women think about the two ?


I agree. Touching the shoulder is more like a supportive act while touching the arm is more seductive.


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## ross105 (Aug 6, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> I agree. Touching the shoulder is more like a supportive act while touching the arm is more seductive.


Thanks, if a guy you are interested strokes your arm, would you reciprocate the same way ?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Why? Because some people prefer it. That's it. Some work groups use it. It's easy to use and doesn't require a social media account to access.
> 
> It's no harder or easier to delete something off WhatsApp than it is to delete something off a twitter message or facebook message or text message or email.
> 
> My WhatsApp syncs to my icloud so I can retrieve messages if I lost my app.


You may defend the app all day but it is a known app utilized by some to cheat. 

OP, we return the thread to you and stop the thread jack.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

ross105 said:


> Thanks, if a guy you are interested strokes your arm, *would you reciprocate* the same way ?


That depends.

It'd make me feel good, but I wouldn't necessarily reciprocate it.


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## ross105 (Aug 6, 2011)

lovelygirl said:


> That depends.
> 
> It'd make me feel good, but I wouldn't necessarily reciprocate it.


However would you agree to reciprocate the same way is a serious matter ??


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

When a woman touches a man, it's always a indication of interest. PERIOD.
Be aware......


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

StillSearching said:


> When a woman touches a man, it's always a indication of interest. PERIOD.
> Be aware......


Oh FFS. 

OP- you’re going to end up sabotaging your marriage if you listen to this thread. 

Whatsapp does not mean she’s cheating. The people telling you this haven’t even used the app. 

Touching does not mean a woman is interested. 

You will become as bitter and toxic as these posts if you start believing this stuff. 

Trust and verify but do not obsess. Do not accuse. Do not get yourself worked up.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Oh FFS.
> 
> OP- you’re going to end up sabotaging your marriage if you listen to this thread.
> 
> ...


Just Wrong


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Oh FFS.
> 
> OP- you’re going to end up sabotaging your marriage if you listen to this thread.
> 
> ...




I hope you realize that a lot of advice given on this thread is similar to what you just advised. The app on its own does not indicate infidelity, but certainly installing this app just for some pictures when it can be easily done by different means that are already available does raise some flags.

And a woman who is not normally touchy ends up touching did set off some bells with the OP, and rightfully so.

He needs to definitely keep his eyes and ears open.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Whatsapp was not recently installed. 

OP clearly said “1. Whatsapp is like the default messaging among all our friends and groups,”


And toxic people telling him that women don’t touch a man they aren’t interested in will ruin his marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ross105 said:


> Whilst we do have a physical relationship, it was the emotional side that was lacking. I have been working on this for the past 2 weeks with good response?


I hope for both or your sakes OP nothing is happening. But I want to stress to you no matter what your culture is this IS YOUR JOB. No matter what your background I think if you are good man you have an instinctive knowledge that you are to be a provider. I would like to impress upon you that you need to think about that position as being more then just financial. There is an emotional aspect to that too. This is not to say that you have to be like one of her girlfriends and I personally think you shouldn't, but you need to be her rock. Which means talking to her encouraging her, learning about her. And then trying to prop her up the same way that you try to provide for her with finances. 

The saying happy wife happy life makes sense because your wife IS YOUR LIFE. You have committed your entire life to her and her to you, you are dependent on her more then any other person or thing in your life. It's wise to treat her like she holds that importance by making sure you are ALWAYS on top of your relationship. That includes emotionally. This is being a leader an a husband in you home. If you do it right she will respect and be attracted to that. 

If you don't know how to do that start to read and lean how, books, blogs, here, ask friends. 

Do this and you will have a much better marriage.


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## Music_Man (Feb 25, 2017)

Tilted 1 said:


> You just experienced what is know as a GUT FEELING. You can do alot right now before it gets to complicated, and it's better to err on a positive note than a regret not confronting when the time was appropriate. Best to you and no fighting for you marriage is never bad. Tell her no whatsapp and to defriend after all she already has the pictures.


This x1000. Listen to your gut, my friend. It's telling you that this is not normal. There's also no need whatsoever, in my opinion, for adults to use WhatsApp. It's well known and well publicized as a cheating tool. Don't believe me? Google "most popular cheating apps" and see for yourself. 

I was once where you are. Even made my concerns known, but various circumstances led to me ignoring the other warning signs that soon appeared. You have the chance, the opportunity, to nip this thing now. Don't screw around. You came here for advice and you're getting sound advice- put it into action.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

OP, don't let anyone downplay the touching. If she never touches other men in that way, then you are correct to be concerned. 

My wife would never touch another man's arm, even if he touched hers first. So if I saw her touch someone that way, it would definitely register.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

ross105 said:


> OM and his wife are indian buddhists,
> We are indian christians and comparatively more westernised, our immediate friend circle are similar to us. We live in London UK. For us greeting with hugs for occassions, dancing with friend's wife etc are normal, so touching I guess is pretty normal.This is not the case with OM and his wife.


That Is definitely NOT normal behaviour, I would think.

He might be trying it on.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Oh FFS.
> 
> OP- you’re going to end up sabotaging your marriage if you listen to this thread.
> 
> ...


Whatsapp does not mean she is not either. Trust but verify

I don't know any that touch. Hug(sometimes but very very infrequent). The touch may mean she is interested. Trust but verify

OP becoming bitter and toxic is conjecture on your part. Becoming informed seems more like it. 

Yes, trust but verify. Let's call it mate guarding.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Is it not correct that that app is known as the cheater’s app? Also, doesn’t it automatically delete messages in a short time?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Yeswecan said:


> Whatsapp does not mean she is not either.


OP said: Whatsapp is like the default messaging among all our friends and groups

Trying to act like it is some red flag is ridiculous and is only going to make him obsess and be paranoid which is toxic to a marriage.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Chaparral said:


> Is it not correct that that app is known as the cheater’s app? Also, doesn’t it automatically delete messages in a short time?


No it does not delete messages. That's snapchat. Whatsapp keeps messages for 1 year after last use.

Lots of groups, including work groups, use WhatsApp because it's not dependent on a social media account.


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## Music_Man (Feb 25, 2017)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> OP said: Whatsapp is like the default messaging among all our friends and groups
> 
> 
> 
> Trying to act like it is some red flag is ridiculous and is only going to make him obsess and be paranoid which is toxic to a marriage.


Just because you haven't used it for cheating doesn't mean thousands of others haven't. It's still widely known as an app used for cheating. You don't need to Google it either- just check the CWI forums on this very site.

It may not be a smoking gun or anything like that at all. I personally would be checking it if I wanted no stone unturned. My W didn't use this particular app- it was standard text messaging- in her affair, but I personally know of at least two people that were on the wrong end of affairs at the hands of waywards that used this particular app. 

May not mean a darn thing in this case, but worth checking into, IMO.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> That was kind of a joke... BUT I think it is either IS accurate, or will be soon.
> 
> Her behavior that OP describes is the behavior of a WW. Bottom line. You can argue all you want...I have seen this too many time.
> 
> I am not however saying the she IS having an affair, but I do say that she is ready... Like I said, lets see if he is a good detective...


Because a lot of people use that app and do not cheat does not prove innocence here.

Saying: The gut is never wrong. BS's are told to trust their gut because it is never wrong.
This OP came here because his gut is telling him something. He is seeing too many red 
flags. He is seeing changes in the way he wife is behaving. Then he finds out on top of 
everything his wife is now doing she adds an app that is used by cheaters. There are many
ways his wife can share photos easily without adding WhatsApp.

Plus when couples plan to socialize or share photos it is a wife to wife communication task.
This OM and this WW have breeched this protocol.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

See if you can find out if this guy has a rep.

Something else you have to be aware of is using a cheating app and the cheaters deleting the app and reopening it when they want to use it. 

Another thing is apps that seem innocent but have are used to hide messages. 

Email accts are used and then deleted. Always check trash folders and other folders. They can give their AP their password and message through writing the message but not actually having to send it. Look in unsent messages. 

The best thing is is the keylogger app that lets you see everything they’re writing in real time.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

@ross105
Continue to monitor (VAR will be very important) her communication with OM, and the minute that you see or hear something you don’t like, sit down with her and have a discussion with her about boundaries when it comes to communication with this person. DO NOT let her know how you got your information. Depending on what you learn, you will want her to limit her interaction with OM and his wife. Whatever position you choose to take, you must be firm about it.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

StillSearching said:


> When a woman touches a man, it's always a indication of interest. PERIOD.
> Be aware......


:surprise:
I’m so screwed if this is true. I have offended hundreds upon hundreds of men and their women. I have had “interest” in 1% of those.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

Spicy said:


> :surprise:
> I’m so screwed if this is true. I have offended hundreds upon hundreds of men and their women. I have had “interest” in 1% of those.


Was your touch any different those 1% times? 

It's different if you are normally very touchy vs if you never touch and then you touch one particular person.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

manwithnoname said:


> Was your touch any different those 1% times?
> 
> It's different if you are normally very touchy vs if you never touch and then you touch one particular person.


When we were merely friends, no, but as our friendship grew, at some point it changed, but I was also single. I agree that if it is out of character for her to touch then it is of much more concern. What I don’t believe is the assertion that:


> When a woman touches a man, it's always a indication of interest. PERIOD.


That is not the case with ME and I assume I am part of that blanket statement, as I am a woman.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Chaparral said:


> Is it not correct that that app is known as the cheater’s app? Also, doesn’t it automatically delete messages in a short time?


No. They stay in a stream for good, unless you delete them, maybe?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

StillSearching said:


> When a woman touches a man, it's always a indication of interest. PERIOD.
> Be aware......


Not always. It depends on context and other factors.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Music_Man said:


> This x1000. Listen to your gut, my friend. It's telling you that this is not normal. There's also no need whatsoever, in my opinion, for adults to use WhatsApp. It's well known and well publicized as a cheating tool. Don't believe me? Google "most popular cheating apps" and see for yourself.
> 
> I was once where you are. Even made my concerns known, but various circumstances led to me ignoring the other warning signs that soon appeared. You have the chance, the opportunity, to nip this thing now. Don't screw around. You came here for advice and you're getting sound advice- put it into action.


My family uses WhatsApp for discussions on family health issues, family history and the like.

My company uses WhatsApp for interstaff communications.

Please folks stop getting hung up on WhatsApp.

Cheating might be happening, or it might not. If it is, they might be using WhatsApp or they might not.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I kinda think you should just talk to her.....


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Or see their vicar, parson or pastor?


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Not always. It depends on context and other factors.


Yup always. 
Subconsciously, if not blatantly forward. 
Deny this OP at your peril.


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