# Okay women need brutal truth



## Bodhitree (Dec 29, 2011)

Been with same woman for almost 20 years. During this time she always put me in the forefront. , was always a huge supporter of mine in all respects, always there for me, sex life very good etc. I never married her because I had caught her in some lies early on and felt I couldn't marry if I couldn't trust her. Last fall, she admitted to an affair which completely shocked me.  She lied about her whereabouts until I tracked down phone records. She says she was tired of situation and being second fiddle to football games, school, and everything else I was involved in and felt I ignored her. She quit contacting her family, friends and even our daughter during this time. Claims affair only lasted 2 weeks with no sex (but who knows) As best I can tell the phone contact time corroborates this time frame. Now almost 6 months later, she has quit that job where OM worked, gone to counseling to patch things up with me, and reconnected with both my family and hers. She says she had had it with me because of my judging and criticizing her and making her "jump through hoops" to meet my approval which always felt short. She says last fall, the EA , was giving up - accepting the fact that I would never love her. Realizing she couldn't go on like this anymore. A way to almost make sure the pain of not being accepted by me would end because she was sure I'd kick her out after learning of affair. Said she wanted me to be jealous. During counseling we realize we really do love each other and plan to finally get married. But when we have fights, she is devastated and same emotions about me not loving her kick in and she thinks I'm "yanking her chain" so to speak. I'm asking for any and all input from you women. I feel good some days that we are progressing and others after a fight I feel awful like today. Thanks for any comments about this situation.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

You've been with the same woman for 20 long yrs and you never married. Sounds like you have a daughter together. Common law marraige type thing then? 



> Now almost 6 months later, she has quit that job where OM worked, gone to counseling to patch things up with me, and reconnected with both my family and hers. She says she had had it with me because of my judging and criticizing her and making her "jump through hoops" to meet my approval which always felt short. She says last fall, the EA , was giving up - accepting the fact that I would never love her. Realizing she couldn't go on like this anymore. A way to almost make sure the pain of not being accepted by me would end because she was sure I'd kick her out after learning of affair. Said she wanted me to be jealous.


 Ok, she did wrong by you, very wrong... but I would like to hear how you feel about what she is saying ABOUT YOU?? Do you feel she is just trying to blame to take the fault off of herself... making excuses, or is there some truth to .... you was too much into Football, you was very critical of her, possibly taking her for Granted... ignorning her? 

Or can you sympathize ...if you feel there is some truth to these claims, you see your own hand in not being there for her emotionally & physcially .......which could have hurt her deeply and weakened her spirit. No excuse for lying and reaching out to another..... but it happens more than one might imagine. 

Many might say she sounds Needy... but I would ask if you are aware of her love languages ? (Quality time, Physical Touch, Words of Affirmation, Gifts & Acts of service)... someone who has TIME on top, even physical touch...they crave alot of attention from their lover. 

If this was falling by the wayside from you..plus she felt nothing she did was right or good enough, she would be feeling less loved, less important to you...hence her trying to make you jealous, though that was the wrong way to get your attention, cause now you have to re-build trust in a great great way. Causing herself now an uphill battle. 




> During counseling we realize we really do love each other and plan to finally get married. But when we have fights, she is devastated and same emotions about me not loving her kick in and she thinks I'm "yanking her chain" so to speak.


 I feel it is very very normal...after dealing with strong emotions- for a long period of time, when some conflict comes our way... .to fall back into some lousy thinking patterns... (if she is pmsing at the time, it could even seem more "magnified"!).

Great article on Communication here -about taking ownership of our own issues when we communicate, this is healthy and necessary....

 PLANTING THE SEED OF INTERDEPENDENCE



> 5. Interdependent couples fight! They fight in a healthy way and do not fear or avoid healthy conflict and uncomfortable feelings in their marriage. Because they are able to express their genuine feelings when they occur, they are able to show anger in a healthy way, without rage. When they do show their feelings in an unhealthy manner, they are able to recognize their relapse, realize what deeper issues have been touched, and forgive themselves without spiraling in shame. They are also able to forgive their partners for their mistakes. Interdependent couples recognize that to deny feelings is to deny who we truly are. They accept that the full range of emotion is to be real. They know that without expressing genuine emotion, the feelings will run their lives and take over in the form of addictions or other counterproductive and unhealthy behaviors.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Why do you suddenly want to get married after 20 years if her lies all those years ago caused you not to want to marry her? Why after the discovery of an affair? Honestly, I would never marry the person, if I were in your shoes.


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

I could see after 20 years of feeling like a second fiddle, the desire to be played and enjoyed and given a chance to be appreciated, overcame her. She realizes with counseling how much she wants to stay in the relationship... She's quit the job where OM worked.

She is trying to distance herself from the EA.... She is reconnecting with family members (distancing from more than just the husband/wife, i think is common in EA)...
She really sounds like she is trying. It also sounds like she is pretty insecure. Insecure in who she is, insecure about your love for you & insecure as to just "where" she fits in in your life.

There Will be up days & down days. This is extremely normal in any reconciliation relationship... as far as I would think.

Just on her down days.... keep reassuring her of your love & of the place that she has in your life.


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## Bodhitree (Dec 29, 2011)

> Ok, she did wrong by you, very wrong... but I would like to hear how you feel about what she is saying ABOUT YOU?? Do you feel she is just trying to blame to take the fault off of herself... making excuses, or is there some truth to .... you was too much into Football, you was very critical of her, possibly taking her for Granted... ignorning her?


I think she is so embarrassed and shameful of what happened that she wishes it would just go away. Through counseling I can see that I was indeed very critical of her over the years. That being said, she is sometimes so sensitive to being judged that she perceives things that I am not actually intending as judgment. Her self esteem is pretty shaky and always was. I do believe a part of her wants to justify affair by saying she had had enough of our situation and went to extreme measures to "get my attention". Basically she was willing to give up the relationship and was to that point of frustration. She hates talking about the affair because she wants to move on. 



> Or can you sympathize ...if you feel there is some truth to these claims, you see your own hand in not being there for her emotionally & physcially .......which could have hurt her deeply and weakened her spirit. No excuse for lying and reaching out to another..... but it happens more than one might imagine.


That is my struggle- lying and reaching out for another. BUT on the other hand I can see I was preoccupied with graduate degree and worn out. I didn't have any time for anything and was completely unavailable emotionally for her especially towards the end. I am done with that thank God so we have had a lot of time together. I still feel betrayed etc. but honestly I can say that I rarely told her that I love her because of her "faults"- I learned in counseling that is how I learned to operate in intimate relationships- didn't even know I was doing it really. So my struggle becomes a battle of forgiveness and acceptance of her and anger at what happened in affair. By the way, your response is one of the best and even handed I have ever received on this board. No accusations of her or radical advice for me to "leave her right away" etc. Thank you so much.


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## Bodhitree (Dec 29, 2011)

Thank you Chelle- I really appreciate your non judgmental post. This is essentially what our counselor is saying to us, but then other "affair experts" think I should keep an eye on her, read her texts, know where she is at all times, read phone bills, get keylogger software. Truthfully your reply is so much more human than all of that. If I feel I have to do that, what kind of relationship building are we really doing? Thank you again for a helpful reply


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## spearcarrier (Apr 6, 2012)

I have days like that: where I'll feel my husband is putting me second best. I've had some bad relationships before him, so when he came along I warned him he'd have his hands full because by then I knew me. It's the little things that have built my trust in him.

When I want his attention he tries hard to put everything down and look me in the eye. Now in my culture looking people in the eye is rude, but we're close to one another and it's a different situation. So he lets me know I have his full attention and I know what he's doing. 

If I express a desire to do something, it's quite often "your wish is my command". Mind you, my desires rarely conflict with what he wants. We have equal opportunity for what each other wants. And there are times it's my turn to be the genie.

We play together. I can't stress that one enough. We do things together. In our case we're geeks so we play card games and watch tv. But there's also kayacking, hiking... if you're broke like we are... nature walks in the park (which we do). We don't go out on dates often - but I'm told that's another one. Date your woman. Even if she's your wife. You should never let the courtship stop.

Mind you my husband isn't perfect. We're working on the listening thing, and just yesterday he aired something I do that he doesn't like (that I never knew he disliked) that I have to work on. But the important thing is we're working on it.

Of course you're going to feel betrayed. It was an affair after all; even a platonic one is still a breach of the heart. I'd be dying inside.

But if I were in her shoes the fact that you refused to marry would have made me feel 2nd or even 3rd best. So perhaps she has her own betrayal issues as well.

So you'll have to *both* build trust in each other.

I'm not a professional counselor, but I know a bad relationship and thanks to my husband I know a good one. If there's no trust, there's no relationship. I'll vouch for that one.


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm glad the post helped. Mind you, I'm not saying that you do treat her as a second fiddle... just that if that is how she felt for many years.. I can see a desire to break out of that mold. Not saying it's right... just know the feeling of wanting to "feel" more important to your mate.

Now, as you go thru reconciliation... be aware that your feelings will probably fluctuate as well. There will be times that you are both working toward a common goal... and everything will feel normal/wonderful/great. There will be times that you start re-thinking your trust in her again. I think that is completely normal... to feel like you can trust one day, and then start questioning her motives/ whereabouts/ or faithfulness on another day.

How you deal with any mis-trust could make a big difference in your future together. I realize that there are many who have been extremely hurt & direct you out of their fear/hurt to start spying on her. Before it gets that drastic, I would suggest to sit down with her & talk. Let her know you've seen some changes in recent activity, and you're wondering if she's feeling left out again. If she was thinking about straying again, I think either A) she would probably admit it during a calm non-judging conversation.... or B) that you've been with her long enough to be able to "feel" if she is covering up a lot & hiding things from you again.

I wish the best to both of you. I think any "divorce" (really, after 20 years together - that's essentially what a break up would be), .. anyway, I think that any divorce after such a long time together, is a very hard thing to go thru. I hope it works out for you two.


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## LemonLime (Mar 20, 2012)

I dont get why you stayed with her in the first place when you felt you could not trust her. Whether it was a legal thing like marriage or not, I can see why she may resent you.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

Bodhitree said:


> *1.* Through counseling I can see that I was indeed very critical of her over the years.
> 
> *2.* That being said, she is sometimes so sensitive to being judged that she perceives things that I am not actually intending as judgment. Her self esteem is pretty shaky and always was.


In two sentences, you acknowledge how you criticized her over the years, and then blamed her for it by being too sensitive. What that means is you don't recognize that you trained her to expect your criticizm and unkindness. You made it matter very little when it was not your intention to criticize. You were still being critical even though you didn't mean to be. That doesn't mean she was overly sensitive. It means you were critical. Period. It was hurtful. Period. My goodness, you are still being critical. This is unbelievable.

Your constant criticizm repeatedly told her she was not good enough. Never marrying her told her she was not good enough. Ignoring her told her she was not good enough. Never forgiving her from the beginning told her she was not good enough. She felt used by you and very resentful even though she loved you, while you told her in every way possible that she was not good enough.

And you still cannot, even at this point, bring yourself to forgive her. You are actually struggling with forgiving her for what you drove her to do. You are right that she has very little self esteem because you robbed her of any she ever had.

The brutal truth is you used her and took advantage of her low self esteem because a woman with any self esteem at all would not have put up with you for very long. You would have been my ex-boyfriend within 3 months of your nonsense. I know that because that is all the time it took for me to rid myself of my ex who was just like you. And yes, within that 3 months, I cheated on him too. I never cheated before him and never cheated after him, but he deserved it because I deserved better than his sorry as*. As you can see, I have no issues with self esteem.

When you get over yourself, perhaps the two of you can finally have a happy life together. When you get over yourself, perhaps you will recognize how lucky you are.

When she ever decides to go to Wally World and buy herself an ounce of self esteem, she will finally kick you to the curb.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

River1977 said:


> In two sentences, you acknowledge how you criticized her over the years, and then blamed her for it by being too sensitive. What that means is you don't recognize that you trained her to expect your criticizm and unkindness. You made it matter very little when it was not your intention to criticize. You were still being critical even though you didn't mean to be. That doesn't mean she was overly sensitive. It means you were critical. Period. It was hurtful. Period. My goodness, you are still being critical. This is unbelievable.
> 
> Your constant criticizm repeatedly told her she was not good enough. Never marrying her told her she was not good enough. Ignoring her told her she was not good enough. Never forgiving her from the beginning told her she was not good enough. She felt used by you and very resentful even though she loved you, while you told her in every way possible that she was not good enough.
> 
> ...


Self-esteem is something a person develops through their life up to about the age of thirteen or fourteen. The most formative years being up to about the age of three or four. After the early formative years self-esteem can go both up and down but it returns to the level it was in the early teen years.


Low self-esteem can of course be the source of many problems within a marriage. But to blame the presence of low-self esteem on a partner is surely wrong, as our level of self-esteem was developed, there before we married.

To blame a partner for an affair is surely blame shifting, scapegoating at its very best. And of course people who scapegoat do so in order to deny any personal responsibility for their life whatsoever. Now that is not the behaviour of a person with high self-esteem, it is though the behaviour of a person with low self-esteem because that’s what they do, they scapegoat.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Bodhitree said:


> Been with same woman for almost 20 years. During this time she always put me in the forefront. , was always a huge supporter of mine in all respects, always there for me, sex life very good etc. I never married her because I had caught her in some lies early on and felt I couldn't marry if I couldn't trust her. Last fall, she admitted to an affair which completely shocked me. She lied about her whereabouts until I tracked down phone records. She says she was tired of situation and being second fiddle to football games, school, and everything else I was involved in and felt I ignored her. She quit contacting her family, friends and even our daughter during this time. Claims affair only lasted 2 weeks with no sex (but who knows) As best I can tell the phone contact time corroborates this time frame. Now almost 6 months later, she has quit that job where OM worked, gone to counseling to patch things up with me, and reconnected with both my family and hers. She says she had had it with me because of my judging and criticizing her and making her "jump through hoops" to meet my approval which always felt short. She says last fall, the EA , was giving up - accepting the fact that I would never love her. Realizing she couldn't go on like this anymore. A way to almost make sure the pain of not being accepted by me would end because she was sure I'd kick her out after learning of affair. Said she wanted me to be jealous. During counseling we realize we really do love each other and plan to finally get married. But when we have fights, she is devastated and same emotions about me not loving her kick in and she thinks I'm "yanking her chain" so to speak. I'm asking for any and all input from you women. I feel good some days that we are progressing and others after a fight I feel awful like today. Thanks for any comments about this situation.


Twenty years without a wedding ring on? Reckon you were both Plan B to each other.


If your wife is in love with you, respects and appreciates you, in other words if she truly values you then you can indeed boost her self-esteem by going down on one knee and asking her to marry you.



But that wont change the woman she actually is wrt her self-esteem because after the boost it will go back to its default level, the level it was before she met you. And you will need to adjust to living with a woman who gets what she wants out of her life by being deceitful and telling lies.


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