# Porn - is it cheating?



## Charmlady (Feb 29, 2012)

This is a two part question -- part 1 for the ladies....if you found out your guy was visiting porn sites daily, then erasing browsing history (so you wouldnt find out), do you consider this cheating or is it just a few steps away from cheating? Part 2 - for the guys -- is this an addiction or just the way you "learn" by watching others?


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I actually do consider it cheating, for one reason, first and foremost: I have specifically stated that I believe it isn't acceptable in a relationship (with me). There are plenty of other women who accept and even enjoy it, without violating my boundaries within a relationship. Of course, this has come up in my marriage a few times and caused way more grief for the both of us. I guess when you accept someone's apology you assume it won't happen again, but it always does. I believe it to be an underlying issue of respect and personal integrity... Especially when lying and deception are secondary issues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

While I don't consider it cheating, it is a betrayal. For me, any kind of betrayal is devastating to the marriage...my husband has been guilty of this before, along with other small betrayals. (what he considered small).

It's a fine line!


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

- It's not the same as cheating
- It's an addiction and nothing else.
- It destroys a man's real sex life and potentially marriage


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

In my marriage, it is cheating. Even if we knew about it, it would be cheating. That's how we see it.

However, the hiding/sneaking/lying about porn (or anything really) is cheating, Imo....even if the spouse wouldn't mind what you're doing.

If you have to hide it or feel shame about it, you probably shouldn't do it.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Does he know where you stand on porn? If he knows you don't care for it or if you have made it plainly clear to him you don't wish to find that kind of thing, and he does it anyway, then that betrayal. Keep in my mind if he knew, and did it anyway, then thats also a disrespect to you, so know that he will likely do that in other areas of the relationship not just with porn. It might be best to think about why you remain with him if thats the case.


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

Charmlady said:


> Part 2 - for the guys -- is this an addiction or just the way you "learn" by watching others?


Men tend to be visual hence Porn popularity. Myself I am not into it consider it a form of explotiation, I would rather have my spouse pose for me. One of the driving forces of the internet was/is porno look at all the sites and how many find themselves addicted to it and the money that it brings in, My first ex was a high class stripper in dallas (Ricks) if their is such a thing and she could never overcome the damage that lifestyle tends to do to woman having witnessed this first hand devastation and what it does to the family unit i am totally against myself.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

I don't think it is cheating but as others have said it can be a breach of trust if you have spoken about it beforehand. If there is other sexual problems in the marriage such as refusal, then my own view is the refusing spouse doesn't get to veto solo sexual activities.


As for part 2, I don't think it is necessarily either. It is not always addictive. And it almost never "just the way you "learn" by watching others". I hadn't heard that one before. I guess if sex ed is really the object, you should be watching it together


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Charmlady said:


> This is a two part question -- part 1 for the ladies....if you found out your guy was visiting porn sites daily, then erasing browsing history (so you wouldnt find out), do you consider this cheating or is it just a few steps away from cheating? Part 2 - for the guys -- is this an addiction or just the way you "learn" by watching others?


It really depends. If it's daily, that can be a little extreme. He's probably hiding it so I wouldn't get upset and start fighting. Porn sites to me are not cheating. Live chats to real people, yes. Looking at pictures or videos of actors, no. When I was younger I used to dislike it. Now I don't care. As long as it's not over the top and interfering in our relationship. My husband looks occasionally, he doesn't need to hide it. Porn doesn't make me insecure.

I don't know about other men, but I don't think my husband goes there to "learn". Certainly not addicted. It's purely a visual stimulation.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

What about the 30% of visits to porn sites by women?

Or are you just going to make this another "all men" bash?


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## Tiberius (Mar 22, 2012)

Found this answer from a psychotherapist:

Answer: Up to a point, porn is for men what looking through fashion magazines is for women. You can look without buying something. You just enjoy seeing what's out there. It rarely means that the guy is thinking of cheating. In many cases, it's a substitute for cheating because it satisfies his needs for new experiences. 

But there is one big difference between porn for men and fashion magazines for women. Women don't masturbate when they read fashion magazines. We may salivate, but not masturbate. Never believe a man if he says he looks at porn but never masturbates while doing so. 

So here's the real question: Is it cheating if a guy you're in a relationship with masturbates?

Yes, it is cheating if it makes you uncomfortable — at least to the extent that it's worth the two of you talking about it. You can say, "The fact that you masturbate makes me feel very uncomfortable because it feels like cheating to me. To me, it's cheating if you have sex with anyone other than me." 

Now you should have a calm, open, honest discussion. He might say that most men masturbate from time to time (which is absolutely true) and that it doesn't feel to him like cheating at all. (Don't believe him if he says that he "thinks about you" while he's doing it, though.) You should definitely talk about his sexual needs and about yours, as well. 

And then it's up to you to decide what to do about this. A word to the wise, though. If you lay down the law about something that you have absolutely no control over and absolutely no way to monitor, how is that helpful to either of you? It just drives communication between you underground. 

I would take your partner's looking at porn seriously if 1) he spends a lot of time doing it; 
2) he spends a lot of money doing it; 3) he gets a lot of weird stuff in his head that makes you uncomfortable when you make love, perhaps because of things he asks you to do; or 4) he doesn't make love to you because he's used up his sexual energy masturbating.

If any of these things are the case, you need to draw a firm, bright line in the sand. If it looks at all as though he's addicted to porn, then you need to insist that the two of you consult a couples therapist.


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## Love Song (Jan 16, 2012)

Charmlady said:


> This is a two part question -- part 1 for the ladies....if you found out your guy was visiting porn sites daily, then erasing browsing history (so you wouldnt find out), do you consider this cheating or is it just a few steps away from cheating? Part 2 - for the guys -- is this an addiction or just the way you "learn" by watching others?


I would only consider this cheating under 2 circumstances. One it was previously discussed that neither party would engage in porn or two he was watching live porn and was visiting the same "porn star" frequently. 

I certainly wouldn't like being lied to about it. But unless he did it under those two circumstances I would not personally consider it cheating. 

What about it specifically upsets you? That he lied or that he was doing it?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I see no man bashing


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

that_girl said:


> I see no man bashing


I agree, maybe implied by the sexually specific nature of the question, but nothing to cause offence


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

Or discussion from the point of view that women visit porn sites too.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

The question posed was if porn was considered cheating.

Either way, male or female, if the porn is something take away from the marriage or done on the sly, imo, it's cheating.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

IMO, what matters the most is how YOU feel about it. People will tell you yes its cheating, people will tell you no its not, but its really how you feel about it. 

As far as it being an addiction, anything done in excess can be an addiction.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

Charmlady said:


> This is a two part question -- part 1 for the ladies....if you found out your guy was visiting porn sites daily, then erasing browsing history (so you wouldnt find out), do you consider this cheating or is it just a few steps away from cheating? Part 2 - for the guys -- is this an addiction or just the way you "learn" by watching others?


The question posed is very gender specific.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Jamison said:


> IMO, what matters the most is how YOU feel about it. People will tell you yes its cheating, people will tell you no its not, but its really how you feel about it.
> 
> .


:iagree:

As with so many of these issues, what matters most is what they think. Some couples will always view porn as emanating from Satan himself, and others will view it as daily entertainment. It is something that a couple needs to sort out on their own.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I think it's the OPs situation. Which would be biased. However, the answers will be a mix of biased and unbiased responses. 

I don't think the 2nd part of the question is necessary. lol. But it is what it is. I think the OPs mate is watching porn, hiding it and giving her that line "every man does it." crap.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Mistys dad said:


> The question posed is very gender specific.


So what? Why make an issue out of that? Charmlady is a woman, presumably asking a question about her guy...I don't see anything written here that should cause you or anyone else to instantly jump on the gender-specific-bandwagon. She's just asking a few simple questions, she's not insulting either sex at all.

Wherever others choose to take this has nothing to do with the original post.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Mistys dad said:


> The question posed is very gender specific.


Life is gender specific though.

SAHM are mostly, well, mums. Not dads right.

Men mostly watch porn.

Women mostly nag.

Men mostly snore (sshh this one's true right ladies)

Get my drift  Sometimes when you have a question, you will raise it towards the majority. It's not always true of course. But that's life.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Mistys dad said:


> The question posed is very gender specific.


I read it as a female trying to get clarification about her man from both a woman's perspective (which she relates to) and a man's perspective (which she's trying to understand better since she's a female.)

No man bashing going on IMO. She's not generalizing, just asking for both a female and male point of view on the subject of her man hiding his porn viewing from her.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

To answer question 1, no I don't think it's cheating. If you have an agreement with each other that porn viewing is off limits, then it's a breach of trust.

ETA: Cheating IMO is sexual contact with the opposite (or same) sex while in a monogamous relationship with someone else.


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## LemonLime (Mar 20, 2012)

I say it is cheating if he is hiding and lying about it.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

_*Part 2 - for the guys -- is this an addiction or just the way you "learn" by watching others? *_


The so the choice for men is this.

Are all of you addicted?

Or do all of you do the Monkey see- Monkey Do thing?

Maybe we can have a question like "Hey Guys- Do you still hit your Wife, or have you stopped?"


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## Love Song (Jan 16, 2012)

Mistys dad said:


> Or discussion from the point of view that women visit porn sites too.


I visit porn sites more than my husband does. My husband doesn't do it at all oddly enough. My husband knows about my visits to porn sites. For my husband and I this is not cheating. 

Where is the man bashing?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

LemonLime said:


> I say it is cheating if he is hiding and lying about it.


He`s only hiding and lying about it because she keeps giving him grief over what is essentially nothing more than her own severe insecurities in the vast majority of cases.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

that_girl said:


> I see no man bashing


it was just a question.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Too bad the thread is being turned into a circus ground for suspect man-bashing; I was actually looking forward to seeing various replies.

To the administrators of TAM, you really should consider adding a block feature for annoyances such as this, so that we can avoid unneccessary BS.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

BS as in Bull SH!T, not as in Betrayed Spouse!


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Mistys dad said:


> _*Part 2 - for the guys -- is this an addiction or just the way you "learn" by watching others? *_
> 
> 
> The so the choice for men is this.
> ...


How about you make it clear for her since you're a guy and she obviously doesn't understand this is not a 'guy' thing like maybe her man is trying to convince her or she's been conditioned to believe?

It's not hard to imagine a person stereotyping something they don't understand, is it? It's not right but it happens all the time.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

tacoma said:


> He`s only hiding and lying about it because she keeps giving him grief over what is essentially nothing more than her own severe insecurities in the vast majority of cases.


Sounds a little gender specific to me...


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

tacoma said:


> He`s only hiding and lying about it because she keeps giving him grief over what is essentially nothing more than her own severe insecurities in the vast majority of cases.


If thats the case, it likely wont work out. She gives grief,( assuming that she gives grief for sure) and he hides. Sounds like a cycle of a mess.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Insecure or not, this is a serious situation that needs to be discussed in a relationship so she doesn't build resentment and he doesn't feel the need to hide it.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

Being a guy I can only speak from a male's perspective, but...

Because most men are so automatically driven with desire for sex (whereas women usually need to be in the mood for it), men often grow up with porn from such a young age because it fulfills some of that sexual need with visual fantasy for masturbation. In fact, porn-watching can become so commonplace and widely-accepted amongst men that a man wouldn't even fathom labeling it as cheating, nor would he engage masturbating to it under the notion that he was doing anything wrong by it. Porn-watching probably started decades before the man met his current spouse, and therefore he isn't even tuned-in to the idea that his spouse may have a problem with it... or that she even has the right to have a problem with it because he's been doing it for so long _"...so it MUST be harmless, right???"_

Also, some guys might make the argument that they need porn because they don't get sex often enough as their drive needs it, so it gives them at least enough fulfillment but without a need of having to stray from the relationship. Women may snub this idea, but I have to be honest, that porn most likely saved me from infidelity in the past at least a few times, but probably more times than I'd care to know or admit. 

There's all different shades of grey in this discussion... so much so that there isn't really a definitive "yes" or "no" answer. When it comes to porn, labeling it as "cheating" is really a game of subjectivity... We are all different and unique and so some people may be more bothered by it than others. Some couples engage in watching porn together for stimulation. It really boils down to the individuals in the relationship.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

tacoma said:


> *He`s only hiding and lying about it because she keeps giving him grief over what is essentially nothing more than her own severe insecurities *in the vast majority of cases.


You don't know that for sure.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

*Dean* said:


> I would be careful about calling it cheating.
> 
> Cheating shouldn't have two meanings. You should always use cheating as the
> term to describe the line in the sand where you would walk out of the marriage.
> ...


It's basically up to the individual as to whether or not it's cheating. You see it as entertainment, my husband and I see it as lusting after other bodies. Difference of opinion from you, but something that works in my marriage.

We aren't into it and never have been anyway. So, that's good too.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I see romance novels for women as the same as porn is for men.

romance novels illistrate an idea that the average man can not possibly be able to do. so dose porn for men.

so if romance novels make me feel bad because I can't possible be as romantic as the men in them are they cheating.

these types of things should be talked about before marriage.



as for porn if the wife is making an effort to keep her man sexually saitaited then if he still looked frequently at it I think that would or should be a problem.


and if the husband is making an effort to learn what is romantic to his wife and put some thought to make sure she feels desires and romanced then reading romance novels should be used sparringly.


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## Love Song (Jan 16, 2012)

Jamison said:


> If thats the case, it likely wont work out. She gives grief,( assuming that she gives grief for sure) and he hides. Sounds like a cycle of a mess.


By the way is your username named after the porn star? Just curious??


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

*Dean* said:


> Cheating shouldn't have two meanings. You should always use cheating as the
> term to describe the line in the sand where you would walk out of the marriage.
> 
> I view porn more as a form of entertainment


:iagree:

If my husband has sex or any form of inappropriate communication and/or act with another woman, to me that is cheating.

If he looks in magazines or videos occasionally at women who are essentially actors, to me that is not cheating. Or else I'd never allow him to watch a movie with a sex scene in it. It means nothing to him, so it doesn't affect our relationship.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

> these types of things should be talked about before marriage.


Yup. And yet, very little people talk about the "hard stuff" before marriage. odd.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

What bothers me is that the OP doesn't trust her gut instinct with this.

She feels confused, thinking she's 'insecure' or 'jealous'...whatever.

Sad that she feels that way and just can't decide for herself how she feels about porn.

I don't care if people think of me as insecure or jealous. porn isn't an option in my home. It was a big conversation while we dated and I was ELATED that Hubs mentioned first that he wasn't into porn...he'd rather have the real thing. And that he does 

But the OP questions her dislike for porn...she questions her feelings of betrayal and will try to choke them down, only to build resentment and disgust for her husband.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

that_girl said:


> What bothers me is that the OP doesn't trust her gut instinct with this.
> 
> She feels confused, thinking she's 'insecure' or 'jealous'...whatever.
> 
> ...


what if you had something which prevented you from having sex for an extended period of time. would it still bother you?

thats not a really good question for you because you take you husbands sexuall needs seriously and try to make him happy in that area. But some women are more reserved and refuse to do certin acts.....oral,hand jobs, even different positions. and if your married to someone who is like that it could be a big help to the spouce who gets SUCK WHAT with the most ulgy face she can muster.


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## Charmlady (Feb 29, 2012)

Just for clarification - this was not a man bashing post - it was a genuine question trying to get a mans opinion, as well as the ladies....

Not saying women do not look at porn or that only men masturbate...just getting both sides...

I think the biggest issue I have with it, is not that he looks at it, but that he feels the need to HIDE it by erasing the cache in his computer, as if I wouldn't find out LOL


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## Love Song (Jan 16, 2012)

tacoma said:


> He`s only hiding and lying about it because she keeps giving him grief over what is essentially nothing more than her own severe insecurities in the vast majority of cases.



I find it interesting that you say this. I am insecure in my body though I know my figure is small. I am not insecure in my relationship and for that reason don't have a problem with my husband watching porn should he choose to do so (he hasn't yet).

If a guy is having a problem with watching porn because of his wife's insecurities (she doesn't want him to) maybe he should be putting that effort to making sure his relationship is solid.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Porn doesn't bother me, I'm not insecure about that or sex in general. What does bother me is my husband watching it in secret. 

A few weeks ago he admitted he had been watching it pretty regularly... and had we not been having a serious dry spell in the sex department, it most likely wouldn't have bothered me at all. I believe it diminished our couple time, and all along I was thinking he was just tired and not in the mood. 

I want to know what I'm dealing with. If it's truly ME then I'm more than willing to fix it, but something that's outside of my marriage that's causing the issue isn't something within my control to fix. For us, the porn watching was the intrusion, and that hurt he would rather do that than make love to me more often.

There's nothing wrong with knowing whatever demon you're fighting in your marriage. At least you have a chance then.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I do have something that prevents me from having sex. It's been 2 weeks and will probably be two more. We're DYING!  But it's something we knew was coming and we now have such an open communication that we talked about this beforehand. We were ready for it...even though it SUCKS!

There's been a looooot of bjs goin on in here  And cuddles. I cannot be stimulated as my doc doesn't want me to orgasm yet. So sometimes, I have to stop with the BJ because I get aroused....oye. We're having a good time. Good learning experience...and yea, i try to finish him with my hand (which he can't do) or I go back to it later.  I love it.

And thankfully, Hubs isn't into porn. 

But the OP didn't say if they are not having sex...I just answered her questions and am going by what she said.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> what if you had something which prevented you from having sex for an extended period of time. would it still bother you?
> 
> thats not a really good question for you because you take you husbands sexuall needs seriously and try to make him happy in that area. But some women are more reserved and refuse to do certin acts.....oral,hand jobs, even different positions. and if your married to someone who is like that it could be a big help to the spouce who gets SUCK WHAT with the most ulgy face she can muster.


Porn can be many things to many people. It could be ultimate betrayal, it could be nothing, it could be a useful tool, it could be something shared etc.

There should never be a fast and set rule as everyone is saying here about anything, it's whatever works for your relationship. And by how you actually feel, not what you think everyone else thinks or how society views something. It's whatever works for you and your partner and makes you both happy and comfortable.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

in OUR relationship, yes it would be cheating. Because that is what WE decided is right FOR US. Him hiding anything like that would be cheating. Us looking at it together would not be cheating, and we do watch movies and read magazines together. It is the HIDING part that crosses the line for us.

There's no way I would tell someone else whether it was cheating for them in THEIR relationship. Why does this subject keep coming up over and over? Is that really so hard to understand?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't care what society thinks is right. Have you looked around lately!? HA! ewwww!!!

But per the OP, anytime something is HIDDEN from the other spouse, it's cheating (imo). Financial cheating, emotional cheating, physical cheating, etc.

It's also a sign that there needs to be better communication between the two of you. Do you get angry easily where he feels like a child hiding things from Mommy?

Obviously he's shamed of his behavior, or worried you'll get angry. He KNOWS it would bother you, but does it anyway.

Y'all need to have a loooong time. I'll put the kettle on.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

Love Song said:


> By the way is your username named after the porn star? Just curious??


Umm I'll have to ask my 80 year old mother and see if that was her intention.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> what if you had something which prevented you from having sex for an extended period of time. would it still bother you?
> 
> thats not a really good question for you because you take you husbands sexuall needs seriously and try to make him happy in that area. But some women are more reserved and refuse to do certin acts.....oral,hand jobs, even different positions. and if your married to someone who is like that it could be a big help to the spouce who gets SUCK WHAT with the most ulgy face she can muster.


I believe TG just had surgery that put her out of commission for an extended period of time...hopefully her H is mature enough to handle that, since porn is not an option for them.

Are some (people) so out of control with their raging libidos that they can't possibly wait a couple of weeks (or however long) without resulting to porn or any other outlet?

In my younger years, when separated from a lover for whatever reason, the sexual reunion was all that much sweeter for having been patient...

Besides; porn is a poor subsitute for lovemaking...I'm sure we'd all much rather have the real thing, male, femle or both (not to leave anyone out).


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Porn discussions come up a lot. It's one of those topics that everyone has divided opinions on.


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## LemonLime (Mar 20, 2012)

tacoma said:


> He`s only hiding and lying about it because she keeps giving him grief over what is essentially nothing more than her own severe insecurities in the vast majority of cases.


Dont you think he should care WHY she has an issue with it then rather than just worrying about himself?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

LemonLime said:


> Dont you think he should care WHY she has an issue with it then rather than just worrying about himself?


Certainly.

Don`t you think she should care why he watches it rather than just worrying about herself?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Angel5112 said:


> That is a cop out. The reason my H gave to me for watching porn after sex was basically; you don't do anal so I have to satisfy that urge somewhere. That is hurtful, rude, disrespectful, and a lot of other words that I really can't even think of right now. Honestly, it made me want to refuse all forms of sex. If you can't live with a "reserved" sex life, maybe you should have discussed that BEFORE marriage rather than making your wife feel like she isn’t good enough, and that you NEED that extra satisfaction from porn, because she won’t perform certain acts.
> 
> Sorry, I just needed to say that.


Porn can make anyone feel inadequate. Especially in that situation. If my husband acted that way, I'd just let him watch porn to jack off...honestly, how rude. Sex is something I do with him because I love him and want to be with him. If he made it feel like a duty or a job, I'd be done. Or I'd ask him for some cash. Ew.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Angel5112 said:


> That is a cop out. The reason my H gave to me for watching porn after sex was basically; you don't do anal so I have to satisfy that urge somewhere. That is hurtful, rude, disrespectful, and a lot of other words that I really can't even think of right now. Honestly, it made me want to refuse all forms of sex. If you can't live with a "reserved" sex life, maybe you should have discussed that BEFORE marriage rather than making your wife feel like she isn’t good enough, and that you NEED that extra satisfaction from porn, because she won’t perform certain acts.
> 
> Sorry, I just needed to say that.


Some people watch porn though not for those reasons, just for a bit of entertainment occasionally. Not everyone watches porn for the same reasons.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Angel5112 said:


> That is a cop out. The reason my H gave to me for watching porn after sex was basically; you don't do anal so I have to satisfy that urge somewhere. That is hurtful, rude, disrespectful, and a lot of other words that I really can't even think of right now. Honestly, it made me want to refuse all forms of sex. If you can't live with a "reserved" sex life, maybe you should have discussed that BEFORE marriage rather than making your wife feel like she isn’t good enough, and that you NEED that extra satisfaction from porn, because she won’t perform certain acts.
> 
> Sorry, I just needed to say that.


But this problem isn`the porn.

This problem is because your husband is an ass.

You might be able to keep him off the porn but he`ll still be an ass.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Charmlady said:


> Just for clarification - this was not a man bashing post - it was a genuine question trying to get a mans opinion, as well as the ladies....
> 
> Not saying women do not look at porn or that only men masturbate...just getting both sides...
> 
> I think the biggest issue I have with it, is not that he looks at it, but that he feels the need to HIDE it by erasing the cache in his computer, as if I wouldn't find out LOL


We know what you mean. Don't worry. Many of us feel the same about the deception, rather than the porn...I personally have a long history on the subject with my husband, and I feel your pain. Maybe, like my H, he is just embarassed or ashamed. It was a good question.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Certainly.
> 
> Don`t you think she should care why he watches it rather than just worrying about herself?


If she didn't care, she wouldn't be here trying to get an understanding.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

To the OP:

You need to COMMUNICATE. You both need to lay out what the heck is going on WITHOUT consequences. There needs to be freedom to express yourselves without fear of being chewed a new ass hole. Hard to do, but necessary.

You need to really look at your relationship and see what's going on. I see a lack of communication, a lack of needs being met, and sadness. Why?


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## LemonLime (Mar 20, 2012)

tacoma said:


> Certainly.
> 
> Don`t you think she should care why he watches it rather than just worrying about herself?


Since when is wanting to have sex with your HUSBAND worrying about your self. I would think the solitary action is worrying about himself. No reason to hide it. If there was not a problem in the relationship, no reason to hide it.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Angel5112 said:


> That is a cop out. The reason my H gave to me for watching porn after sex was basically; you don't do anal so I have to satisfy that urge somewhere. That is hurtful, rude, disrespectful, and a lot of other words that I really can't even think of right now. Honestly, it made me want to refuse all forms of sex. If you can't live with a "reserved" sex life, maybe you should have discussed that BEFORE marriage rather than making your wife feel like she isn’t good enough, and that you NEED that extra satisfaction from porn, because she won’t perform certain acts.
> 
> Sorry, I just needed to say that.


:iagree:

And how is his hand satisying his urge for anal? That's a BS excuse...if you suddenly started begging for anal, I'm sure he'd switch to something else in the porn scene. He just likes porn.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Certainly.
> 
> Don`t you think she should care why he watches it rather than just worrying about herself?


She's not worrying abouth herself, she's worrying about the lying. Or is having a lying spouse OK to you?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

CandieGirl said:


> I believe TG just had surgery that put her out of commission for an extended period of time...hopefully her H is mature enough to handle that, since porn is not an option for them.
> 
> Are some (people) so out of control with their raging libidos that they can't possibly wait a couple of weeks (or however long) without resulting to porn or any other outlet?
> 
> ...


nope I ani't going 2 weeks with out some sort of release!!!!! don't think anybody would want to be around me if I didn't get regular releases.........

and TG take care of her man! if your married to someone who pulled the old bait and switch who dosn't take your needs seriously then the chance of him cheating/leaving or using porn go up dreastcally.

if my wife treated me like TG treats her husband I would never touch my d*ck again ......I wouldn't have too. because she realises the importances of sex to a man plus she is also a sexuall person.:smthumbup:


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## Love Song (Jan 16, 2012)

Jamison said:


> Umm I'll have to ask my 80 year old mother and see if that was her intention.


Sorry :scratchhead: didn't realize it was your real name


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

For me, any deceit/hiding is cheating.

During our separation, Hubs and I had a BIG TALK about what cheating is. It's not just physical. Sometimes it's not even with another person.

Lies and deceit cause distrust. Distrust causes a breakdown of intimacy. Lack of intimacy leads to resentment...which leads to divorce.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Porn is a visual stimulation. It is fantasy. It can be used as a quick relief. It can be many things.

It shouldn't interfere in your sex life, become a habit, or turn into anything that requires communication with anybody ie chat.

Partners discussing use of porn should be specific - videos, magazines, pictures. Porn is very broad and has all different faces.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

Love Song said:


> Sorry :scratchhead: didn't realize it was your real name


Its ok no problem.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

And if I was in a coma, or whatever, hubs would work on a ton of cars :lol: He doesn't masturbate. I have asked him and he knows I masturbate sometimes (in bed, no porn and I text him to let him know I'm doing it which drives him crazy  ) He says he gets bored...he'd rather have sex with me so he lets it build up because he knows we'll be sexual later that night .... but why turn to porn if you spouse can't do it for a period of time IF it was decided that porn is cheating? Just go jack off. Maybe hubs would learn to do that if I was in a coma. I don't know. maybe he and I should talk about that hahaha...

But the OP's problem, I think, is NOT having clear boundaries with her mate AND feeling lied to. BOTH of which are no good for a healthy marriage.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

erotica is classified as porn.

romance novels with sex descriptions are porn!


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

that_girl said:


> For me, any deceit/hiding is cheating.


I went clothes shopping yesterday and hid the receipt from my husband.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

that_girl said:


> And if I was in a coma, or whatever, hubs would work on a ton of cars :lol: He doesn't masturbate. I have asked him and he knows I masturbate (in bed, no porn and I text him to let him know I'm doing it which drives him crazy  ) He says he gets bored...he'd rather have sex with me so he lets it build up because he knows we'll be sexual later that night .... but why turn to porn if you spouse can't do it for a period of time IF it was decided that porn is cheating? Just go jack off. Maybe hubs would learn to do that if I was in a coma. I don't know. maybe he and I should talk about that hahaha...
> 
> But the OP's problem, I think, is NOT having clear boundaries with her mate AND feeling lied to. BOTH of which are no good for a healthy marriage.


he dosn't masterbate.......OK


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Angel5112 said:


> Chillymorn -
> 
> Are you saying you CAN'T masturbate without some kind of visual stimulation? This is an honest question.


That's true for everyone isn't it. Whether it's on screen, in a magazine or in your head. You're still visualising.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> nope I ani't going 2 weeks with out some sort of release!!!!! don't think anybody would want to be around me if I didn't get regular releases.........
> 
> and TG take care of her man! if your married to someone who pulled the old bait and switch who dosn't take your needs seriously then the chance of him cheating/leaving or using porn go up dreastcally.
> 
> if my wife treated me like TG treats her husband I would never touch my d*ck again ......I wouldn't have too. because she realises the importances of sex to a man plus she is also a sexuall person.:smthumbup:


I am married to someone who pulled the old bait and switch.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Gratitude said:


> I went clothes shopping yesterday and hid the receipt from my husband ....


Was it because you spent money that you didn't have? Money that should go towards the household? In my marriage, that's cheating. We struggle with bills right now. if one of us went shopping for ourselves without letting the other know our budget (we don't have to ask permission, just have the facts  ) and if we hide the receipt, then it would be financial cheating. 

That's just how WE look at it. We take care of our shet first, put some in savings (ha! savings.... ) and then our play money is our play money.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Angel5112 said:


> Chillymorn -
> 
> Are you saying you CAN'T masturbate without some kind of visual stimulation? This is an honest question.


no never said that.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

CandieGirl said:


> I am married to someone who pulled the old bait and switch.


sux don't it!!!!!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> he dosn't masterbate.......OK


I know it's hard for men to understand, but he doesn't. We have sex or sexual contact daily and that's good enough for him. he works 12 hour days and comes home, and we go to bed around 9 or 10 for lovin.

I hate saying that he doesn't masturbate, because no one believes me. but I don't lie and to say that in your sarcastic way insinuates that I lie. I wouldn't mind if he did masturbate. But he just says he doesn't like it. he says, "Why rub myself when I know you like doing it for me"  And i do!  We talk about things WAY MORE intense than masturbation which Hubs doesn't lie about-- good or bad. He wouldn't le about masturbation...one of the most normal parts of human sexuality.

So, please, no more "OMG HE TOTALLY MASTURBATES!" responses. He wouldn't lie to me about it and he just doesn't.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

that_girl said:


> I know it's hard for men to understand, but he doesn't. We have sex or sexual contact daily and that's good enough for him. he works 12 hour days and comes home, and we go to bed around 9 or 10 for lovin.
> 
> I hate saying that he doesn't masturbate, because no one believes me. but I don't lie and to say that in your sarcastic way insinuates that I lie. I wouldn't mind if he did masturbate. But he just says he doesn't like it. he says, "Why rub myself when I know you like doing it for me"  And i do!
> 
> So, please, no more "OMG HE TOTALLY MASTURBATES!" responses. He wouldn't lie to me about it and he just doesn't.


LOL. I think men that masturbate just believe that ALL men do it, and if your husband tells you he doesn't he's BS'ing you.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

that_girl said:


> I know it's hard for men to understand, but he doesn't. We have sex or sexual contact daily and that's good enough for him. he works 12 hour days and comes home, and we go to bed around 9 or 10 for lovin.
> 
> I hate saying that he doesn't masturbate, because no one believes me. but I don't lie and to say that in your sarcastic way insinuates that I lie. I wouldn't mind if he did masturbate. But he just says he doesn't like it. he says, "Why rub myself when I know you like doing it for me"  And i do!
> 
> So, please, no more "OMG HE TOTALLY MASTURBATES!" responses. He wouldn't lie to me about it and he just doesn't.


Don't worry about it - judging by cm's replies, it's quite easy to see how he passes his time...


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Charmlady said:


> This is a two part question -- part 1 for the ladies....if you found out your guy was visiting porn sites daily, then erasing browsing history (so you wouldnt find out), do you consider this cheating or is it just a few steps away from cheating? Part 2 - for the guys -- is this an addiction or just the way you "learn" by watching others?


First off for me anyway there are shades of gray :

1) Inappropriate behavior

2) Unfaithfulness

3) Cheating

None of them are a good thing. Unfaithfulness might be when boundaries are being crossed. Inappropriate might be risky behavior up to crossing boundaries for example.

Where cheating begins depends on the couple certainly but for argument sake lets say someone has sex of some kind. Lets even say kissing is here. Some physical activity. I would include cyber sex and sexting. Sexting is at the least unfaithful but I see it as cheating.

But then I have to ask. What is porn?

1) Softcore stuff -- Depends on agreed upon boundaries. My wife and I have a look but do not touch policy. That said I take this to mean look but do not interact in anyway. I confess if my wife spent many hours viewing pictures or videos of men with huge c0cks in action and masturbating to them it would creep me out, so ladies I guess I get your point to some degree. YMMV.

2) Hardcore stuff -- Same as above but some couples may draw a different line here.

3) Fetish stuff -- Kinda like hardcore I suppose but depending on what it is it could be a concern for a couple no doubt. I will not elaborate here. It is less here about cheating and more about disturbing.

4) Cyber sex? Web Cams and so on. Interactive online sex. Sexting. Media of real world people known to you. -- I think this is cheating.

The only one above I see as cheating is #4. #3 is a whole other discussion IMO. #1 or #2 may be ok, inappropriate or unfaithful depending on the boundaries set.

Some consider certain steamy romance novels as porn. Or erotic stories. So I think a woman who is getting herself off after erotic stories yet is upset about hubby looking at porn is a tad hypocritical.

I do not think for example a sexless marriage is grounds for cheating. Get a divorce first. I do not see a man viewing porn in a sexless marriage as cheating. I do however think this is bad if it contributes to the sexless marriage. If the guy is all about porn and not his wife he is being unfaithful to her.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I just said OK!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> I just said OK!


 yea...but I read that sarcasm 

It's ok! Just wanted to avoid more responses like that. It's hard to believe. I didn't believe it at first! I was like, "yeaaa right! All guys do it!" but...he doesn't.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Was it because you spent money that you didn't have? Money that should go towards the household? In my marriage, that's cheating. We struggle with bills right now. if one of us went shopping for ourselves without letting the other know our budget (we don't have to ask permission, just have the facts  ) and if we hide the receipt, then it would be financial cheating.
> 
> That's just how WE look at it. We take care of our shet first, put some in savings (ha! savings.... ) and then our play money is our play money.


No it was because I spent money on clothes. He earns a lot, so it's a running joke. He think I have enough clothes. But he's been to the pub before and I say tell me how much you spent, and he runs off laughing say I'm not gunna tell you, you'll get mad! 

If we have a budget and one of us goes over for our own personal use, we get mad at the other one but we don't see it as cheating. Cheating for us is purely inappropriate conduct with the opposite sex. We've never used that word for anything else.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> sux don't it!!!!!


No it doesn't. I love my husband, he loves me, and we're working on the rest.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> I do not think for example a sexless marriage is grounds for cheating. Get a divorce first. I do not see a man viewing porn in a sexless marriage as cheating. I do however think this is bad if it contributes to the sexless marriage. If the guy is all about porn and not his wife he is being unfaithful to her.


True. However, the HIDING it is what is sad and explosive in a marriage.

If a spouse is not capable for sex for a long time, then this discussion needs to come up. TALK ABOUT IT before hiding it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Gratitude said:


> No it was because I spent money on clothes. He earns a lot, so it's a running joke. He think I have enough clothes. But he's been to the pub before and I say tell me how much you spent, and he runs off laughing say I'm not gunna tell you, you'll get mad!
> 
> If we have a budget and one of us goes over for our own personal use, we get mad at the other one but we don't see it as cheating. Cheating for us is purely inappropriate conduct with the opposite sex. We've never used that word for anything else.


Then you've never been not able to feed your children because of your mate's inability to budget money and only bought crap for himself. Not my hubs but my ex.

Yup. That's cheating. I am going to food banks and he bought a 2000 dollar computer.

Cheating.


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Angel5112 said:


> I don't NEED visual stimulation. Sometimes I use it, yes, but whenever I do it without I don't generally visualize in my head. I am too focused on the feeling and what I am doing with my hands. I mean if you are saying you ALWAYS have some sort of visual stimulation, what about when you have sex without the lights on. I can’t see anything in our bedroom if the lights aren’t on. Also, when I am on bottom I have my eyes closed about 90% of the time. I am not really doing it on purpose, it just always happens.


I didn't mean sex. I said masturbation. Yes, I need visual stimulation for that. Whether it's just a visual in my head, or porn.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

To the OP, have you ever just came out and asked him why he feels the need to hide it and delete stuff? I mean you already stated porn wasn't the problem you had, it was the hiding. Just ask and see if you get a answer.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

CandieGirl said:


> No it doesn't. I love my husband, he loves me, and we're working on the rest.


good for you thats a great attitude hope you can keep it up for the next 20,30, 40 years.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Jamison said:


> To the OP, have you ever just came out and asked him why he feels the need to hide it and delete stuff? I mean you already stated porn wasn't the problem you had, it was the hiding. Just ask and see if you get a answer.


Most probably he is embarassed and doesn't want to hurt her feelings. Nothing more sinister than that!

But then, there I go, generalizing...maybe he has an obsession for goat-sex or something....


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Angel5112 said:


> I don't need visual stimulation just for masturbation either. Maybe it is just me. Either way, I don't think conjuring images in your head is the same as watching two real people do sex acts on a screen.


Yea...me neither. My mental pics are of Hubs doing naughty things to me.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> maybe he has an obsession for goat-sex or something....


Could be! Might not be just porn, but the TYPE of porn! 

If I liked goat porn I would hide it too.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> good for you thats a great attitude hope you can keep it up for the next 20,30, 40 years.


So do I, although that would put me at 62, 72, and 82 years of age respectively. It will probably matter even less by then...and please, all of you can spare me the details of visualizing 'senior' sex. Thanks!


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I didn't ask my husband why he was keeping the porn watching a secret. Maybe I should. I don't really think he has an answer for it, so maybe that's why I didn't ask.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

A Bit Much said:


> I didn't ask my husband why he was keeping the porn watching a secret. Maybe I should. I don't really think he has an answer for it, so maybe that's why I didn't ask.


Never know until you ask


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Never know until you ask


Most of the time, they're afraid we will 'get mad'.

I get mad about wayyyyy stupider things than that...  LMAO!!!


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Yea...me neither. My mental pics are of Hubs doing naughty things to me.


I don't mind if my husband watches porn or even visualises some other fantasy in his head (not that he would tell me). They're not real. I'm real. We have a great sex life. He looks at me and talks to me. If I asked him to stop looking at porn forever starting now, he probably would because it's not over the top for him. But I wouldn't. Because it doesn't affect us. If it was an addiction, of course. But a girlie magazine once in a blue moon, or a video once a month. Not bothered in the slightest.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Never know until you ask


I honestly think he'd give me the 'I don't know' default answer.

He doesn't have a good reason for it. I give him sex as much and any time he wants it. Watching porn and hiding it is one of those DOH! moments really.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

That's the point. The OP has to figure out what works best for her and her husband.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

My poor guy doesn't even like talking about anything like that...it's been such a struggle. But now that we're coming through it, things are so much better. We may not be rocking down the walls every night, but we're close, and affectionate, and loving. He's touching me all the time, we sleep wrapped up in one another. When the sex happens, it's just great.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Most of the time, they're afraid we will 'get mad'.
> 
> I get mad about wayyyyy stupider things than that...  LMAO!!!


Precisely WHY the guy would hide it then! If you're gonna get mad at something less significant, then he's gonna keep the "potentially more significant" on the down-low!!!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

A Bit Much said:


> I honestly think he'd give me the 'I don't know' default answer.
> 
> He doesn't have a good reason for it. I give him sex as much and any time he wants it. Watching porn and hiding it is one of those DOH! moments really.



"I dont know" is not an acceptable answer in this house. With a little thought, people KNOW why they did something, even if they jsut "felt like doing it". "I don't know" is what morons say...and I don't think your husband is an idiot.

In our talks, if one of us says, "I don't know", the other will pull the info out. We just learned to be honest, even if it hurts. lol This builds intimacy. 

"I dont know" is an avoidance of the issue. People know why they did things, they just don't want to hurt anyone with the reason.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

that_girl said:


> "I dont know" is not an acceptable answer in this house. With a little thought, people KNOW why they did something, even if they jsut "felt like doing it". "I don't know" is what morons say...and I don't think your husband is an idiot.
> 
> In our talks, if one of us says, "I don't know", the other will pull the info out. We just learned to be honest, even if it hurts. lol This builds intimacy.
> 
> "I dont know" is an avoidance of the issue. People know why they did things, they just don't want to hurt anyone with the reason.


I agree, the I don't know isn't acceptable to me either. We're honest with each other too, well at least I thought that until I found out his big secret.

In this case, I care less about why he hid it than the act of hiding it itself. You know what I mean? There is no reason why, other than he wanted to. I have a problem with him wanting to do that knowing full well how I feel about being dishonest with anything in our relationship. I don't want to question what ELSE he could be keeping a secret from me.

Not to mention being told that the lack of sex wasn't me at all and having to repeatedly remind myself of that even though we weren't connecting. He said it wasn't me, but after a while you start to think... maybe he's trying to be nice and it IS me. Turns out it wasn't and he was telling me the truth there, but boy, how hurtful it is to know what is keeping him from me is THAT. 

Watching porn more than having sex in real life IMO is idiocy.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

goat porn......... whats the web address!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> goat porn......... whats the web address!!!!!!!!!!!!


www.bahbahahhh.com


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

To the OP, I just read your other thread from back in Feb, and I see why you feel the way you do. This is not the first time he hid things from you, the last thing was even more serious than porn. I now understand your concern. 

I don't know if a ulitmatium is in order or not, that is, if you are prepared to follow through if he doesn't. Its time to set boundaries and to get into some MC STAT! He clearly has a hiding/deleting what he is doing problem, and I will tell you, if you think he is up to no good, then he probably is.


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

What if the porn delt with a kind of porn where the H might be ashamed if the wife found out about it ??


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

yea, i don't think this is about porn. The OP just doesn't trust her husband and rightfully so.

We're not children. No need to hide shet.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

In_The_Wind said:


> What if the porn delt with a kind of porn where the H might be ashamed if the wife found out about it ??


I'd still want to know.

The H doesn't trust his wife to accept him if he hid it out of shame.


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## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

I cant speak for other men but from my POV its not an addiction, when I was single I looked at it every day. When I was dating and sex was plentiful I would almost never looked at it. After getting married sex declined to once a month or less, so I started supplementing, she caught the evidence of it on one occasion and called me out on it, I admitted to it. Like many women she claimed it was cheating, I disagreed but said I would stop, however, she our sex life needed to have some changes, mainly frequency. She agreed and for a short time the frequency increased only to shortly decrease, I stuck it out for a few months and finally started looking at pron again but instead hide it much better than before.

The ironic part is when I look at porn on a regular basis our marriage is happier, im less cranky and bitter about the lack of sex, she is less annoyed as im not constantly pestering her about sex and when I completely stopped looking at it our marriage was a mess, constantly fighting, lots of sexual tension etc. So to all those out there who say porn is a marriage killer I have to respectfully disagree


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

But why hide it? I can't understand that. but I guess if it works for you,.....however, it can't build intimacy.

You wife should know and should come to terms with the fact that if you're not getting sex, you will look at porn. SHE can change things or she can be ok with it. She can also leave. I just think she should be aware of the consequences of not being sexual with her husband.

I can understand men or women looking at porn when they aren't getting anything from their spouse. Humans are sexual beings.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Toshiba2020 said:


> I cant speak for other men but from my POV its not an addiction, when I was single I looked at it every day. When I was dating and sex was plentiful I would almost never looked at it. After getting married sex declined to once a month or less, so I started supplementing, she caught the evidence of it on one occasion and called me out on it, I admitted to it. Like many women she claimed it was cheating, I disagreed but said I would stop, however, she our sex life needed to have some changes, mainly frequency. She agreed and for a short time the frequency increased only to shortly decrease, I stuck it out for a few months and finally started looking at pron again but instead hide it much better than before.
> 
> The ironic part is when I look at porn on a regular basis our marriage is happier, im less cranky and bitter about the lack of sex, she is less annoyed as im not constantly pestering her about sex and when I completely stopped looking at it our marriage was a mess, constantly fighting, lots of sexual tension etc. So to all those out there who say porn is a marriage killer I have to respectfully disagree


So even though she considers it cheating you do it anyway?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Toshiba2020 said:


> The ironic part is when I look at porn on a regular basis our marriage is happier, im less cranky and bitter about the lack of sex, she is less annoyed as im not constantly pestering her about sex and when I completely stopped looking at it our marriage was a mess, constantly fighting, lots of sexual tension etc. So to all those out there who say porn is a marriage killer I have to respectfully disagree


This is because you were releasing your semen. It makes people happy 

You don't need porn to masturbate. You know your wife doesn't like it, but you do it anyway. So in a way, it's somewhat of a payback to her for withholding sex from you. Almost like you're being a rebel.

Porn has killed MANY MANY marriages when the spouses find out about it. Don't kid yourself. If your wife found out, would she leave? Would she be angry and cause you to leave? Could happen, and thus, porn would have killed your marriage.

So, to her, you are cheating on her. You are hiding it. Not good things for a healthy marriage. You can be strong and confident in telling her that you will look at porn because you need more sexual activity. 

I still don't think peopel NEED porn to masturbate though. That's on you.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Bottled Up said:


> Precisely WHY the guy would hide it then! If you're gonna get mad at something less significant, then he's gonna keep the "potentially more significant" on the down-low!!!


Ummm....KIDDING.

I wish everyone would stop taking everything so phucking literally...

plus, we're not discussing me, we're discussing Charmlady


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

that_girl said:


> This is because you were releasing your semen. It makes people happy
> 
> You don't need porn to masturbate. You know your wife doesn't like it, but you do it anyway. So in a way, it's somewhat of a payback to her for withholding sex from you. Almost like you're being a rebel.
> 
> ...


only people who have conditioned them selves by watching it too much need it to orgasm.

I guess for a lot of men its a passive agressive way to get back at them for refusing them sex.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

that_girl said:


> But why hide it? I can't understand that. but I guess if it works for you,.....however, it can't build intimacy.


Men hide porn because the women in their lives have conditioned them to be ashamed of it since pre-puberty.

Spend 15 years with your mother bashing you as a perv then your adult life with your wife bashing you that it`s "cheating" AND you`re a perv and you`re not going to be too quick to be open with it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Men hide porn because the women in their lives have conditioned them to be ashamed of it since pre-puberty.
> 
> Spend 15 years with your mother bashing you as a perv then your adult life with your wife bashing you that it`s "cheating" AND you`re a perv and you`re not going to be too quick to be open with it.


I guess I can understand that. My mom effed up my views on sex SOOO BADLY!  i'd ask a question and all of a sudden I'm the town tramp. I had to retrain myself.

I am very open with my daughter about sex. Maybe too much as she rolls her eyes and says, "Gawd, Mom! I'm sooo not interested in sex!" hhaha just need to be informed and know it's normal to talk about!!

But the fact is, men are grown. Conditioned or not, they are in control of their actions--- to lie or not. Time to man up/lady up, I guess, and get ready for the shet storm, but hold fast because you ARE grown. Let someone have a fit. But it's reasonable to say that if you don't sleep with your mate, they may find release in porn. I think people (women mostly) who want to control their men's sexuality that much are wicked.

It's also a HUGE topic for couples BEFORE marriage....probably before really dating. Why waste time with someone who likes porn if you don't like it? Best to move on and find your perfect match. I couldn't give two shets about what someone's favorite colour is...what I want to know is if you like porn (if you do, awesome, but you're not for me), how important sex is to you, if you've cheated on an ex, if you live on your own and manage money for yourself, if you want kids, and how you treat the people in your life.

HA! Maybe dating me wasn't fun for a lot of guys, but it sure weeded out the ones I didn't want to waste time on.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Ummm....KIDDING.
> 
> I wish everyone would stop taking everything so phucking literally...


How can I not take it so phucking literally when it's literally written right in front of my phucking face!!!


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I think if a man really felt that bad about it/himself because he was told he's a perv his whole life, he wouldn't do it at all. 

Seems to me that it's easier to keep the big secret and lie, than it is to not watch it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I really think, though, that when a man watches porn, knowing it hurts his wife, and lies about it, he's doing it as a way to get back at her for denying sex.

My ex was a vegetarian. I was young and impressionable  and became one too.

When we'd fight, I'd go eat a hamburger :rofl: Felt good to basically take my life back. I wouldn't tell him and it was my rebellious way of saying EFF YOU!

Ooooh that relationship was sooo effed up hahaa...


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

do vegatarians give oral?

isn't that considered meat. or at least an anmial product.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

We've officially digressed


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> do vegatarians give oral?
> 
> isn't that considered meat. or at least an anmial product.


I don't know. he didn't really let me do that. he didn't let me do a lot of things sexually.  Like I said, that relationship was effed up. But that's the beauty of breakup! I don't have to care anymore.

I do think, though, that passive aggressive behaviour is BS! Man up! you'll get more respect.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

We're talking about vegetarians now? Apparently I've missed a lot these last few hours! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Men hide porn because the women in their lives have conditioned them to be ashamed of it since pre-puberty.
> 
> Spend 15 years with your mother bashing you as a perv then your adult life with your wife bashing you that it`s "cheating" AND you`re a perv and you`re not going to be too quick to be open with it.


And short of interactive porn it is not the same as someone banging someone else. I saw a post a while back where a guys wife said he cheated on her with porn and she felt justified in having a PA. That he caused it by cheating on her. Ummmm. No.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> do vegatarians give oral?
> 
> isn't that considered meat. or at least an anmial product.


If only to give a Shakespearean death... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

YinPrincess said:


> We're talking about vegetarians now? Apparently I've missed a lot these last few hours!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nope! Still talking about porn. My analogy was related to the issue. Read back


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Nope! Still talking about porn. My analogy was related to the issue. Read back


 I will. On my way to the doc. Makes entertaining waiting-room reads. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I think women nag about this because their men are so wimpy about it. Remind you, this is my theory...

If I caught my husband sneaking porn, I would be angry about the sneaking around. That would set me off to confront him in an angry way. This would cause my husband to shut down/get defensive and then a wall would be built between us. I'd be hurt, I'd feel lied to, not adequate for my husband. he'd feel scolded, controlled, etc. NOT good for either side or a marriage. NO ONE would be listened to. No one would be heard.

IF my husband had the need to look at porn and I wasn't giving him sex, then I would be more receptive for him to come to me to say, WITH CONFIDENCE, *"Look, our sex life is bad-- for whatever reasons you have and won't tell me, that's fine. You'll tell me when you're ready. But I need a release. I need a visual release. i will be looking at porn for this release because I miss sex. I miss you and your body, but you chose to keep it away from me. Fine. I will respect your wishes, but you need to now respect mine. This is not up for negotiation unless you want to talk about our sexlife and what's wrong with it and how it can be changed. If you can't do that, that's fine. I just wanted to be honest with you about my porn viewing and let you know I will be doing it. I love you and miss you, I just can't live like this any longer and I have no interest in cheating."*

That's a man.

THAT would get my attention.

Shet. I just turned myself on :rofl:


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Bottled Up said:


> How can I not take it so phucking literally when it's literally written right in front of my phucking face!!!


Because it was surrounded by LMAO and smilies. Forgive me. I'm just so annoyed of some of the attitudes on here, and I honestly don't know why I chimed in on this thread.

So some guys, including my husband, were shamed about anything sexual from the age of 15 on, and then by every woman up until he met me...! I have to pay for that??? WTF?

Our case is tragic, in that if there were anyone in his life that he could finally open up with, explore with, and discover with, that would be me. Still, he can't.

My only hope is a Delorean at this point. Go back to 1988, give him a taste of 18 year old CandieGirl, and never look back...or forward!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Because it was surrounded by LMAO and smilies. Forgive me. I'm just so annoyed of some of the attitudes on here, and I honestly don't know why I chimed in on this thread.
> 
> So some guys, including my husband, were shamed about anything sexual from the age of 15 on, and then by every woman up until he met me...! I have to pay for that??? WTF?
> 
> ...


My husband had a hard time opening up to me for the longest time. I know how sad and frustrating that is  But hopefully it's just getting better.

I want a Delorean too. OMG! 1.21 gigawatts!


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Octavegatarians are less likely to.


I was going to say... Yes, we do. But we don't swallow for "ethical" reasons. :rofl:

Sorry. I'm keeping this OT. I'll stop now. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

that_girl said:


> I think women nag about this because their men are so wimpy about it. Remind you, this is my theory...
> 
> If I caught my husband sneaking porn, I would be angry about the sneaking around. That would set me off to confront him in an angry way. This would cause my husband to shut down/get defensive and then a wall would be built between us. I'd be hurt, I'd feel lied to, not adequate for my husband. he'd feel scolded, controlled, etc. NOT good for either side or a marriage. NO ONE would be listened to. No one would be heard.
> 
> ...


Thats the exact conversation I had with the wife. and she said I'd rather you didn't and I said I rather you have sex more frequent so the ball in your court.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

At least you were a man about it. If you keep it calm and collected, there's no arguing.

Hubs was like that when he left last summer. No anger. No craziness. Just the facts and damn if it didn't wake me up and humble me.

I was just so proud of him. Even in that moment, as I fell apart, I remember thinking how proud I was of him for taking such a manly stand. Eff yea!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

cool as a cucumber.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

And to me, that's sexy as hell. 

What has your wife done in response to this?


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> Because it was surrounded by LMAO and smilies.


I was just messing with you CandieGirl... I wasn't taking you literally at all, I just like saying the word "phucking"


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

that_girl said:


> My husband had a hard time opening up to me for the longest time. I know how sad and frustrating that is  But hopefully it's just getting better.
> 
> I want a Delorean too. OMG! 1.21 gigawatts!


He finally told me almost 2 years in, that he doesn't like any form of being groped down below. 2 years! OMG! What am I like! He says he thought that I knew and that I was just continuing to tease him because I knew he didn't really like it!

And WTF? I've never met (or even heard of) a man who doesn't like to be felt up a little.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

that_girl said:


> And to me, that's sexy as hell.
> 
> What has your wife done in response to this?


She has been making an effort to be more sexual. she even woke me up with morning sex and has been trying to give alittle more oral without me asking.

not too bad and I've been trying to listen and respond to what she likes to talk about.

all and all we have been getting along better in the bed room.

but still needs to improve a bit.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> He finally told me almost 2 years in, that he doesn't like any form of being groped down below. 2 years! OMG! What am I like! He says he thought that I knew and that I was just continuing to tease him because I knew he didn't really like it!
> 
> And WTF? I've never met (or even heard of) a man who doesn't like to be felt up a little.


Right because you read it in your magic 8 ball that he didn't like it CandieGirl. YOU KNEW!!!

OMG I don't know how you do it.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> She has been making an effort to be more sexual. she even woke me up with morning sex and has been trying to give alittle more oral without me asking.
> 
> not too bad and I've been trying to listen and respond to what she likes to talk about.
> 
> ...


If she's trying (and you notice she's been trying) what more do you want?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

A Bit Much said:


> If she's trying (and you notice she's been trying) what more do you want?


good question.


I want the resentment that has built up over the years to go away.

I wanted her to come to this conclusion on her own it feels cheapened somehow that I had to basicaly say this ani't working and I'm out of here if things don't change.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> good question.
> 
> 
> I want the resentment that has built up over the years to go away.
> ...


Many people don't realize what they have until they come close to losing it. Your wife may be finally seeing what she needs to do to have a strong marriage.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> He finally told me almost 2 years in, that he doesn't like any form of being groped down below. 2 years! OMG! What am I like! He says he thought that I knew and that I was just continuing to tease him because I knew he didn't really like it!
> 
> And WTF? I've never met (or even heard of) a man who doesn't like to be felt up a little.


I'm mad at your husband too!!! He has no idea how good he's got it to have his wife groping him at random.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> I wanted her to come to this conclusion on her own it feels cheapened somehow that I had to basicaly say this ani't working and I'm out of here if things don't change.


The selfish don't draw their own conclusions, and most times even when someone else draws it for them they don't care.

What they want comes first to mind, not you or anyone else which is why even after you pointed it all out to her very plainly she STILL said "I would rather you didn't". (still asserting her wants over yours)

It would be nice to press a button to erase years of anger that builds up. I think true forgiveness can do that, but so many of us don't know how to truly forgive.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

lovesherman said:


> Many people don't realize what they have until they come close to losing it. Your wife may be finally seeing what she needs to do to have a strong marriage.


I hear ya.

warning for everybody ...... don't be a too little too late type of person. because when you finally decide to do whats right they might not want it any longer.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> He finally told me almost 2 years in, that he doesn't like any form of being groped down below. 2 years! OMG! What am I like! He says he thought that I knew and that I was just continuing to tease him because I knew he didn't really like it!
> 
> And WTF? I've never met (or even heard of) a man who doesn't like to be felt up a little.


My older daughter's father was this way.

he also hated to have sex with me and did it to shut me up.

he said to 'let him initiate'. So I did. We went for 4 months without sex.

When we met, he was 'the man'. WTF?!

I left him. that was NOT going to be my life.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

A Bit Much said:


> The selfish don't draw their own conclusions, and most times even when someone else draws it for them they don't care.
> 
> What they want comes first to mind, not you or anyone else which is why even after you pointed it all out to her very plainly she STILL said "I would rather you didn't". (*still asserting her wants over yours*)
> 
> It would be nice to press a button to erase years of anger that builds up. I think true forgiveness can do that, but so many of us don't know how to truly forgive.


This feels very familiar to me. I wonder if people do this without conciously realizing...


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> This feels very familiar to me. I wonder if people do this without conciously realizing...


I think they're very conscious of it. They're manipulating the relationship for their benefit... people don't manipulate unconsciously. It's very deliberate.

It's all ego. What I want is more important than what you want, and I'm going to continue to make that clear to you by how I treat you.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> I hear ya.
> 
> warning for everybody ...... don't be a too little too late type of person. because when you finally decide to do whats right they might not want it any longer.


SO TRUE! my ex promised me the moon when I told him I was done.

Sorry, I was done. I didn't want the moon any longer.

Actually, all my exes have done that. Lame. When I'm done, I'm done.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

A Bit Much said:


> I think they're very conscious of it. They're manipulating the relationship for their benefit... people don't manipulate unconsciously. It's very deliberate.
> 
> It's all ego. What I want is more important than what you want, and I'm going to continue to make that clear to you by how I treat you.


But wouldnt' that get done in other areas of the relationship as well? Like where to go for dinner, or who does an unpleasant chore...? IDK...


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> But wouldnt' that get done in other areas of the relationship as well? Like where to go for dinner, or who does an unpleasant chore...? IDK...


It could. It depends on the person and what they choose to do and not to do. Some people refuse to compromise no matter what it is. They want it their way and you're going to like it.


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## dontwanttoloseher (Aug 21, 2010)

synthetic said:


> - It's not the same as cheating
> - It's an addiction and nothing else.
> - It destroys a man's real sex life and potentially marriage


I agree with point 1 but not two and three.

I


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

It amazes me how these porn threads shoot off like a rocket, probably be 20 pages in 10 hours... HOT HOT topic !

In my world... so long as my husband brings the goods back to me...takes ME for the ride , I don't care how much he looks at it in his spare time...I like a little too, we just watched some together this morning... I like it more than he does and I am happy he doesn't have a problem with that. 

He watches ME watching it laying next to him, and gets a thrill seeing me get excited. Neither one of us has taken care of ourselves in over 3 yrs... he didn't even do that when he wasn't getting enough sex, he told me he felt like it was "cheating", I was like "WHAT !!??" Sweet I suppose. But I can hardly complain , in our case, it never hurt our sex life. At one time I posted scriptures to his desk top, when I would find him downloading folders of play boy bunnies, but he never touched himself. And yes , I do believe him. 

IN my world of thinking.... if BOTH partners needs are being pleased, and desirously given with passion and enthusiam, each is fullfilled sexually and none has an addiction that is taking over one's life & family.... where our duties are falling down to the ground, and if one is not hung up on the religious wrong-ness of a little porn, I simply don't see the harm...

Our marriage is a testament to that. Each to their own. In our case it is not needed at all, we only watch it maybe once a week for a half hour. It has not hindered anything, if anything, it has spiced our very vanilla sex life up more - starting 3 yrs ago.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

dontwanttoloseher said:


> I agree with point 1 but not two and three.
> 
> I actually learned something from it and our sex life, even with all the other problems/issues is the BEST it has ever been.
> 
> ...


WTF!?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

In my mind cheating is interaction either emotionally or physically with a real live person. Therefore, I don't see porn as cheating.

I think it is exploitive to the men and women in the industry and internet porn is like crack for some people. Those are the main reason I don't like it.

I also think it is a private activity. I leave up to my husband to do what he sees fit. We agree to disagree. Everything is good in our marriage. 

A little off topic - 

I think people who watch porn and masturbate should not be shamed. The main goal of shaming is to make one person feel bad and the other superior. Not a loving thing to do and does not make them stop.


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## LadyFrog (Feb 27, 2012)

IMHO, visiting porn sites and then erasing history is cybercheating, yes.

Dh and I watch DVD's occasionally but our strict rule is that we agree on the movie ahead of time and only watch it together. It's part of our sex life, not something we would do separately.


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## Charmlady (Feb 29, 2012)

Ok for clarification -- there were trust issues (if anyone read my post from feb), we ARE in MC currently because of it, so this is why I am having such a hard time understanding this.

The issue is not if he masturbates (we all do at some point, right?) The issue is the secrecy of it. The issue is he erases the history so I wont find out about it, because he says in MC, you can look at my computer at any time....

one of the issues from MC is TOTAL honesty and TOTAL transparency to rebuild the broken trust. I see this still as deception. I do not understand why he must hide it. So when he says you can look at my computer any time, he thinks he is covering his ass because I wont find it, only I am a little smarter at computers than he is 

As far as the porn goes -- its anal sex porn and video of it, so some are live cams and some are videos on a porn site. Again I am wondering is this all real fantasy because he knows I am not into the anal thing, or is this just a few steps away from cheating (hooking up with someone from the live cam)?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> As far as the porn goes -- its anal sex porn and video of it, so some are live cams and some are videos on a porn site. Again I am wondering is this all real fantasy because he knows I am not into the anal thing, or is this just a few steps away from cheating (hooking up with someone from the live cam)?


Live cam stuff is scary IMO. Too close to getting the real thing.

He's hiding it because he knows you aren't into it. It doesn't change his liking it and wanting to see it/experience it. He can still have the fantasy and you can believe he's not into it since there's no evidence. Everybody's happy!

NOT.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

Charmlady, considering the past events I think you have reason to be concerned. After being caught by you on that weekend trip and now in MC he should be going out of his way to make sure you trust him again. He should be scared to lose you. Maybe he's not taking you or your relationship serious enough and he's not scared of losing you?


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## Mom_In-Love (Mar 18, 2012)

_*Quote from that_girl:* What bothers me is that the OP doesn't trust her gut instinct with this.

She feels confused, thinking she's 'insecure' or 'jealous'...whatever.

Sad that she feels that way and just can't decide for herself how she feels about porn.

I don't care if people think of me as insecure or jealous. porn isn't an option in my home. It was a big conversation while we dated and I was ELATED that Hubs mentioned first that he wasn't into porn...he'd rather have the real thing. And that he does 

But the OP questions her dislike for porn...she questions her feelings of betrayal and will try to choke them down, only to build resentment and disgust for her husband.

*Quote from Angel5112:* For some people, it truly isn't about insecurities or jealousy. Some people truly feel, like you, that porn is lusting after another (real) person. Some people feel like it is disgusting, disrespectful, and degrading. That is a personal choice. When did we stop getting a personal choice? Do we have to accept things just because they are considered "socially acceptable"_

You both have said it beautifully.

I do watch porn with my husband, but [email protected], I disagree so much with the people who do watch porn and try and make others feel bad for not being ok with it also. 

Whoever watches porn, good for you! However, the people who don't like it are in the right to not like it just as much as you are in the right to do like it. Don't push your views and beliefs on someone else!

People who don't like porn should not be called insecure, jealous or controlling by default. That's just sick... 

Whatever works for each relationship is perfectly fine. Both parties have to agree on something.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

I guess I don't understand how "lusting after another person" is, in itself, wrong. 

This is an immediate reaction that happens before I'm conscious of it. I don't "try" to lust after that hot Brazillian exchange student - I just do if I see her. 

Now, going out of one's way to lust after someone is volitional and therefore possibly blameworthy - that's another question. 

I've had discussions about this with girlfriends past. Most were of the opinion that they *should* be the only person I'm attracted to - maybe I couldn't help it if I find Kim Kardashian pretty, but it'd be nice if I could.

I don't understand that. Must be a male/female split to some extent. If my mate didn't find other men physically appealing at all, I'd be worried: I'm a man, after all, and lacking attraction to ANY other man likely actually means she's not attracted to me either. 

Again, jerking off to porn is another step up as far as choosing things go than seeing that someone else looks good ; I'm just pointing out that one possible component of it - "He's attracted to other women!" - doesn't seem to be bad at all to me. 

Once the masturbating to porn thing comes up, there are a few more things to unpack: should men not masturbate at all? should men not *think* of other women when they masturbate? can they think of them but not look at them?


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## Charmlady (Feb 29, 2012)

I am not saying for one minute that masturbating is wrong or even looking at an attractive person going by is wrong, BUT the part I have the issue with is the secrecy about it all.

Last nite, we were watching Sex & the City - the episode where trey cant get it up with charlotte, so he looks at porn (magazines) so charlotte pastes her face all over the girls in the mag... So I say to him (in a non threatening way)...what is it with guys and porn...you are a guy, you have obviously watched it - what is it, does it turn you on or what? his reply: "Dont get it either, does nothing for me, I much rather the real thing"...HMMMMMMMMM LIES LIES LIES, (when I know for a fact he looks at it online practically daily) why lie about such an important thing...if you cant talk about sex with your partner, who can you?


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Mom_In-Love said:


> the people who don't like it are in the right to not like it just as much as you are in the right to do like it. Don't push your views and beliefs on someone else!


Nobody is trying to push any beliefs on anyone else. This is a forum filled with different opinions. Those who don't have a problem with porn aren't trying to push anything, they're explaining why they don't see it as a threat. Hopefully it might even be insightful to hear why men/women watch porn and how little it means to some people, it's just a form of entertainment and nothing to feel threatened over.

People who don't like their spouse's watching porn are insecure, threatened etc? Probably. I used to be in my younger years, now I am very secure in my husbands love that it doesn't bother me. There may be other reasons. Religious beliefs, distaste of the profession etc. But I'd hazard a guess at people who don't want their spouse's watching porn would be in the majority of the fact that they see it as inappropriate in a relationship and some from feelings of insecurity and jealously. It's just a fact.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Is porn cheating? No.
Porn is watching TV, looking at a picture, or reading. Those things are not on a level of interacting with and actual person. If looking at porn on a TV is cheating, then a woman reading a book or watching a TV sitcom and and admiring a male character is cheating. 

Is porn something a man uses to learn about sex? No, it is entertainment like any other form of entertainment. Men find sexual images entertaining and pleasurable.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Charmlady said:


> I am not saying for one minute that masturbating is wrong or even looking at an attractive person going by is wrong, BUT the part I have the issue with is the secrecy about it all.
> 
> Last nite, we were watching Sex & the City - the episode where trey cant get it up with charlotte, so he looks at porn (magazines) so charlotte pastes her face all over the girls in the mag... So I say to him (in a non threatening way)...what is it with guys and porn...you are a guy, you have obviously watched it - what is it, does it turn you on or what? *his reply: "Dont get it either, does nothing for me, I much rather the real thing"...HMMMMMMMMM LIES LIES LIES, (when I know for a fact he looks at it online practically daily)* why lie about such an important thing...if you cant talk about sex with your partner, who can you?


OMG I would have busted him right then and there. Very matter of factly and calmly. Then I would have asked him why he can't tell the truth about it. Like you said, if you can't talk about sex (though you have it) with your partner, who can you?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Mom_In-Love said:


> People who don't like porn should not be called insecure, jealous or controlling by default. That's just sick...


If those same people (generally wives) are withholding sex, always got a headache, not tonight dear....I can see why the husbands feel as they do.

I don't care what anyone else does ...and I thank GOD me & my husband is on the same page...what a blessing ...unfortunately this is generally NOT THE CASE....... I have been plenty judged by the religious and the "proper" for what I like (Yeah, I am an ASS for telling some christian friends me & the hubby like a little porn sometimes, I might as well wear a T-shirt that says "JUDGE ME"! ....so it goes both ways. 

I personally pity any men who is being refused in the bedroom and has a wife with that type of attitude. He'll just hide it from her anyway. Too many wives set their husbands up for this... in my opinion.

These things should be openly talked about before anyone marries to avoid the hell and judgement -on both sides.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> I guess I don't understand how "lusting after another person" is, in itself, wrong.


Are you married?

Why would I want my spouse to look at another person having sex and then masturbating while that person is having sex? 

When I'm with my spouse, why would I want him/her to be thinking of someone else?

lol Ridiculous. If you have fantasies in your head, that's awesome. But if you have to go watch sex on the tele and jerk off to it, that's rude...if your wife is ready to have sex with you.

I can't comment about sexless marriages. That doesn't apply to me. that changes the game a bit.


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## Mom_In-Love (Mar 18, 2012)

Gratitude said:


> *Nobody is trying to push any beliefs on anyone else. This is a forum filled with different opinions. Those who don't have a problem with porn aren't trying to push anything, they're explaining why they don't see it as a threat. *Hopefully it might even be insightful to hear why men/women watch porn and how little it means to some people, it's just a form of entertainment and nothing to feel threatened over.
> 
> People who don't like their spouse's watching porn are insecure, threatened etc? Probably. I used to be in my younger years, now I am very secure in my husbands love that it doesn't bother me. There may be other reasons. Religious beliefs, distaste of the profession etc. But I'd hazard a guess at people who don't want their spouse's watching porn would be in the majority of the fact that they see it as inappropriate in a relationship and some from feelings of insecurity and jealously. It's just a fact.


I already am aware that this is a forum and people will have different opinions... I do agree with this 100%. However - that was never my point at all and I never said anything about this.

You are saying that the people who don't have a problem with porn are *only* explaining why they don't see it as a threat, but, this is not true - meaning not everybody is doing things as you say. I was only talking about the people that are in fact calling others that don't like porn "jealous", "insecure" and "controlling" by default even in cases in which the wife is not withholding sex from the husband. that_girl is a person that does not believe in porn for her relationship, however, by what I have read from her she seems to be pretty secure in her relationship. She does not seem to be jealous or controlling at all. And that is what I was saying. That people should not be judged by DEFAULT in the same exact ways when they don't like porn.

You, however, are in fact being reasonable because you are pointing out that there are many different reasons for people not liking porn, and you are saying thing like "probably" and "the majority"... so you are not including everybody in the same boat. 

*Simply Amorous:* I agree with you in the fullest. I think its selfish for a wife to fight about her husband viewing porn when she is not giving him sex. It does not make any sense. 

And, I totally get you about the judgmental attitude of some religious people. I have been judged myself. The church that I used to go to has 5,000+ memebers that attend and the pastor told us all that if your mouth waters when you see a yummy burger, it is LUST! And that lust is wrong! OMG. My mouth has watered so many times in my lifetime when I see food and I cant believe that they would see it as sin. They said that if it happens that your mouth waters when you see a burger, you should not buy it. Instead, get the thing in the menu that does not make your mouth water. LOL. So, if they think "lusting" after a yummy burger is wrong, you can only imagine what they think about porn. 

If I told some religious people that I know, that me and my husband watch porn, I would get judged immensely. I am not ashamed of it though. So, if they ask or if the opportunity is there, I would actually have the guts to say that me and my husband do watch porn and we enjoy it. However, its sad to say that because of how much me and my husband have been oppressed by religion, we no longer go to church. We are not religious and we don't believe on anything specifically.

We are free now and believe what we want. Our relationship is amazing and we are happy with things just the way they are.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Are you married?
> 
> Why would I want my spouse to look at another person having sex and then masturbating while that person is having sex?
> 
> ...


I think you missed my point.

When I see a pretty girl, I "lust" after her. I feel an immediate urge that is not subject to my conscious control.

If you're saying it's always wrong to masturbate if you've got a willing spouse, I understand that as a consistent position. It strikes me as a bit controlling but it's consistent.

But once we go down the road of "It's okay to masturbate but...."

I start getting curious.

Is it okay to masturbate, but only if the fantasies in your head do not include people other than your wife? To what extent is that under our control?

Is it okay to have fantasies about people other than your wife, just not while you're masturbating?

Is it okay to masturbate and imagine other people - see them in your mind's eye - but not see them with your actual eyes? That is, I can think about what Tera Patrick (a porn star) looks like but I can't actually look at her while masturbating?

Same question goes for that hot secretary at work or whatever - I can imagine what she looks like with her clothes off, but can't take a look at the company photo before jerking off? 

Is it okay for me to imagine other women while having sex with my wife? 
What if I just "see" other women in my head while we're in the act - I can't suppress them? 

---------

I'm fine with people saying that porn is wrong. I'm wondering *what* is wrong with it. 
I don't understand the "lusting after other people" angle - I don't know how I can help it that I think Salma Hayek is attractive and have an urge when I see her. I can avoid looking at her by avoiding movies that she's in.

But how can I truly rid my world of the possibility of finding other women attractive? 

You might think this is me being ridiculous. But I'm serious: if the problem with porn is that it involves men lusting after other women, you've got to tell me how I can permanently avoid lusting after other women without locking me in a closet or blindfolding me. If the "lusting after other women" is morally incorrect, then I am guilty of something I don't choose. 

(Again, "purposefully going out of one's way to lust after other women is wrong" is a different statement. But that doesn't seem to be what's really going on here.)


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## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

My concern where porn is concerned is that, in my situation, porn is a possible gateway to him wanting more than what he has at home. 

He is watching porn with girls barely out of highschool...I am 33 years old with 2 kids, physically I can't compete with them. If he watches that enough, I am afraid he is going to get dissatisfied with me and try to find him some 19 year old real life porn. 

Our problems come from the fact that he already did once. She was 22, it was last summer and even though we are working through things, anything sex related where that doesn't involve me is a trigger...especially when he watches porn and jerks off. I feel like not only did I share him with another woman without my knowledge, now I am sharing him with porn. I only get 50% of his sexual urges and the other 50% he dedicates to those nasty *****s that bleach their asses to pay for their college tuition. 

I am more than willing to take care of him anytime and any place. Sometimes he chooses porn rather than be with me. That is my problem with it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

well, if my husband was wacking off to people online or to porn, and NOT having sex with me, that's a problem.

that's why I stay attractive and thankfully I like sex.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

lisab0105 said:


> My concern where porn is concerned is that, in my situation, porn is a possible gateway to him wanting more than what he has at home.
> 
> He is watching porn with girls barely out of highschool...I am 33 years old with 2 kids, physically I can't compete with them. If he watches that enough, I am afraid he is going to get dissatisfied with me and try to find him some 19 year old real life porn.
> 
> ...


And this is a huge problem, and he does it to himself. You can't control 'lust'..even so, lusting after someone is creepy. Admire, have a brief thought of "oh yea" but to lust after a stranger? lol. Ok  But this woman's husband chooses to sit down, turn on the porn and take away from his wife.

Not ok. And he is loooking at much younger women which is insulting to his wife, the mother of his children. Lame.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Porn thread on TAM.... guaranteed 10 pages.


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## confused55 (Apr 30, 2011)

Porn can be the gateway to other destructive behaviour. 

That's what I believe is really the problem with it.


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## Charmlady (Feb 29, 2012)

I dont think its a big deal if they are looking at magazines or stills, but when you get into live video, you are interacting with another person, and its very destructive to a relationship....just do not understand why someone would do that. I have attempted a conversation (several times) about it, and he denies it, lies about it, then goes and does it the next day....so frustrating, because I know its going on and cannot get him to open up about it.


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## allisterfiend (Sep 29, 2011)

confused55 said:


> Porn can be the gateway to other destructive behaviour.
> 
> That's what I believe is really the problem with it.


I read quite a few posts and Ill put my 2 cents in . . . 

If my wife aint giving it up and is constantly using her "go-to" excuse, porn is the first stop.

If it continues, Its escort time!!! And if there is one thing the military has taught me, ESCORTS RULE!!!

(Eh . . . Im sick . . . I need help)


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## confused55 (Apr 30, 2011)

If it continues, Its escort time!!! And if there is one thing the military has taught me, ESCORTS RULE!!!




Yah, and then the marriage is over. It's not worth it. Just talk it out with your wife before you even go there.


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## meagain (Apr 9, 2012)

Myself being a "guy" and married I do look at porn. Not always but when things don't happen in the bedroom with my wife I sometimes turn to porn. Do I feel guilty you might ask, yes I do. I am only human and will make some mistakes. I think that as long as I stay home and not seek it elsewhere I'm not cheating. I need sexual satisfaction and if this is the way I need to get it then I will do it. " just because you're on a diet doesn't mean you can't read the menue". 
I need sex at least once a week. Rarely happens with my wife so I do what I need to relieve the desire. Bottom line is to take care of your man and he won't go anywhere else. At least I am speaking for myself.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Expecting a man not to look at naked women or masterbate is like asking them not to breath. I honestly believe that anyone who thinks porn is cheating is setting themselves up for a lifetime of disappointment. The people that believe masturbating is cheating are simply delusional. Why should anyone be able to tell anyone what they can do with their body? I guarantee that 99% of men lie to their women about it if she doesn't approve. Some men do it more often then others but all men do it at some point. I don't care what religion or set of morals they claim to follow. The men who protest the most are the one with the biggest collections. Did it ever occur to anyone here that humans were practically naked for hundreds of thousands of years and seeing other naked bodies was just part of their daily lives?


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## Beautydot (Dec 11, 2011)

X


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## Peachy Cat (Apr 15, 2012)

A poster wrote: Porn thread on TAM guaranteed 10 pages

That should tell us something. Porn is destructive to troubled marriages. Porn can lead to troubled marriages. Porn is a topic that causes debate/strong feelings.

One interesting thing I've learned since coming to TAM is that a lot of men ADMIT that they are not satisfied with their wives in bed--either because of performance/lack of performance from her or because she doesn't do it as often as he would like. I have been told, in other forums, over and over that women shouldn't be upset about their man watching porn because it "has nothing to do with her".

I've always known it DID have something to do with me.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Peachy Cat said:


> A poster wrote: Porn thread on TAM guaranteed 10 pages
> 
> That should tell us something. Porn is destructive to troubled marriages. Porn can lead to troubled marriages. Porn is a topic that causes debate/strong feelings.
> 
> ...


Perhaps in your own case personally it had to do with you. In my case, I have a mild addiction to porn, I say that because I had been using it 5 or 6 times a week, but I've never used it at work, never in the car, or on my phone in innapropriate places, like a lot of the crazy stuff I read about when I started studying up on this. 

The conclusion I came up with about my use of porn: The only thing it had to do with my wife is that she has a lower libido than I do, that's it. If she is willing, I'll gladly ravage her, I LOVE making love to her, but she wants sex twice a week, and I'm willing to go twice a day (as she puts it). So having a higher libido, I found using porn to be a much easier way than trying to beg my wife for sex, and therefore in a way, I use porn because quite simply, it is easier, so I'm a bit lazy in that regard. The other reason, which is really what I'm trying to work on, is I discovered I was using self gratification as a way to alleviate stress.

Now, as I say this, understand one thing: I believe in the vast majority of cases, porn hurts marriages. From the start, it is rare for two partners to have the same acceptance or lack there of when it comes to porn. It is VERY difficult to be open enough about porn to keep both partners feeling fulfilled, happy, and trusting in one another. Porn can cause resentment, distrust, lack of interest in one or the other, and can be a gateway to affairs, be they EA online or actually meeting up, or sexting/cam'ming online/phone. 

So to answer the basic question: Is porn cheating? Simply looking at pictures/movies (no interaction with a live person) isn't exactly cheating, but it is like having a personal emotional affair with those images, especially if you are hiding it from your spouse.


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## Peachy Cat (Apr 15, 2012)

Po: I appreciate your insight and honesty; it's truly refreshing.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Po12345 said:


> Perhaps in your own case personally it had to do with you. In my case, I have a mild addiction to porn, I say that because I had been using it 5 or 6 times a week, but I've never used it at work, never in the car, or on my phone in innapropriate places, like a lot of the crazy stuff I read about when I started studying up on this.
> 
> The conclusion I came up with about my use of porn: The only thing it had to do with my wife is that she has a lower libido than I do, that's it. If she is willing, I'll gladly ravage her, I LOVE making love to her, but she wants sex twice a week, and I'm willing to go twice a day (as she puts it). So having a higher libido, I found using porn to be a much easier way than trying to beg my wife for sex, and therefore in a way, I use porn because quite simply, it is easier, so I'm a bit lazy in that regard. The other reason, which is really what I'm trying to work on, is I discovered I was using self gratification as a way to alleviate stress.
> 
> ...


+1 on this. In my marriage, where sex was once a week or less, I used porn on a daily basis. If nothing else, it prevented a fair amount of friction between us, even though it was only masking a bigger issue, the lack of intimacy in general.

Now, I'm in a relationship where sex is 5 to 7 times a week. No more porn, unless we're looking at it together. No "DIY", even when we're apart for a week.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cory275 (Aug 11, 2011)

if your wife has a problem with it.... then YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

cory275 said:


> if your wife has a problem with it.... then YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You cannot classify looking at pictures/movies online, without personal interaction from both sides, as cheating. No more than you could define a partner with a weight control problem who is eating donuts as cheating. Or a person with a gambling problem as cheating, all simply because the spouse has a problem with it. 

Classifying such problems as "cheating" opens the door to a so called valid excuse for the spouse to then use if they truly do cheat - "Well, you looked at porn", that's an absolutely ridiculous correlation and should NEVER be made. Our first marriage counselor tried to say that nonsense... guess who is no longer ever allowed to provide marriage counseling through Military Once Source, ever again? Yep, that idiot of a counselor.

When the interaction is personal, such as pay for web/cam services and such, then you can make a case for it being a form of cheating, but you make a very slippery slope by stating that porn in general is cheating. It is a respect issue.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

If masturbating/porn is cheating, 99% of men are cheaters. 
If you're not comfortable with being with a "cheater" in this sense, it would be best to avoid dating/marriage, because your odds of finding a man who doesn't occasionally masturbate/look at porn are pretty slim. 


(I made 99% up. I don't know what the real figure is, but I suspect its in that range)

((Yes, I lump masturbation/porn together. If looking at porn as a visual stimulus is cheating....what about Victoria's Secret? What about 'minds-eye' visual stimuli; ie, mental picture of the hot girl at work? Etc. Is it just hardcore pornography, or is ir just naked women, or is it just pictures of women, or is it imagining any other woman? Lots of problems here, IMO))


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## EALR (Apr 30, 2012)

Watching porn isn't cheating.....however...it does cause hurt feelings and can strain a marriage. There is a rule in my marriage for porn. We watch it together.


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## Done_Trying_ 4_Ingrates (Apr 29, 2012)

My husband is a closet porn addict but it is about to be what ruins his sorry @$$! They can delete history, but you can undelete history like I did and zoom in on that old hairy sasquatch style vag and place it as his wall paper so when he turns on his computer... HE KNOWS HE'S BEEN CAUGHT! Yeah... if you have to hide it... it's cheating! If they have an attractive woman who is completely adventurous and has no qualms about masturbating while they watch... they are also STUPID!I think porn gives short men some control, because they have none else where... how do I know this? Because the keebler Eff'n Elf I will soon to be calling ex husband lost his along time ago and if he felt for one second he pulled one over on me- there is quite a few perv sites with his face now plastered online and a picture of his tiny peeny showing... ( B!#%@ I won) :smthumbup:


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

He may have legal remedies against you for that. Congratulations.


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## Done_Trying_ 4_Ingrates (Apr 29, 2012)

@ So What... Have legal remedies against me for what... posting his pic on websites that he on company time and company computer activated using the same passwords he has always used??? He can bring it... not like he's going to have the money for lawyers and fees after I am done with him! Smart is smart and stupid is stupid! His @ss can't even file his nails... so he's going to file a suit?:scratchhead: OKeeeeeeee


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

I'd love to help, pro bono.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Done_Trying_ 4_Ingrates said:


> @ So What... Have legal remedies against me for what... posting his pic on websites that he on company time and company computer activated using the same passwords he has always used??? He can bring it... not like he's going to have the money for lawyers and fees after I am done with him! Smart is smart and stupid is stupid! His @ss can't even file his nails... so he's going to file a suit?:scratchhead: OKeeeeeeee


Sounds like there is more to this than just porn. If you truly divorced your husband simply because he was looking at porn and hiding it from you, then you have gone way overboard. However if there is more to this issue, then it may be understandable. 

All I see here is the porn issue, and you making personal attacks on him for being short and having long fingernails. Taking it to another level with a vendetta against him, posting up nude pictures of him including his name and other personal information... that can actually get you in trouble criminally.


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## Done_Trying_ 4_Ingrates (Apr 29, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> Sounds like there is more to this than just porn. If you truly divorced your husband simply because he was looking at porn and hiding it from you, then you have gone way overboard. However if there is more to this issue, then it may be understandable.
> 
> All I see here is the porn issue, and you making personal attacks on him for being short and having long fingernails. Taking it to another level with a vendetta against him, posting up nude pictures of him including his name and other personal information... that can actually get you in trouble criminally.


Well I can assure you there is much much more than just porn issues! My husband is a pathological liar who I have caught sending messages to women locally on websites such a s Facebook for sex as well as many other personals sites! He is extremely sneaky... sadly enough he has created the person I am because I came into the relationship as an honest, loyal very good person. I really don't know why he did this stuff as he was not lacking anything in in the love department. He for so long would drink our money away and though never admitting it cheating when I  found numbers on his phone under men's names that were women from bars! I have 100 percent no trust for him and I hope to destroy him the way he has destroyed me! He was seeing a woman through Christmas while working out of town while I was caring for his children we had through Christmas vacation. I gave up trying to love him! Everyone thinks he's such a nice guy... I want to show them he's not! I have to up, change jobs, start over... he will have to start from the bottom as well this time! He will be faced dealing with issues he has brought on so many others! These criminal charges people keep bringing up... Who gives a $#!t 
AS I SAID BEFORE... HE MADE THESE PROFILES ON COMPANY TIME ON COMPANY COMPUTER WITH COMPANY CREDIT CARD... i JUST CHANGED WORDS AROUND SPEAKING THE TRUTH AND POSTED THE PICTURE OF THE PIG HE IS,

I think he has inflicted so much hurt I feel I no longer have a heart and if someone told me he died on the jobsite... I wouldn't cry


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm a man, and no I don't consider it cheating. 

Neither does my wife. I don't hide out, sneaking porn, masturbating in secret. My wife is well aware of how high my sexual drive is, she knows that I masturbate regularly, and watch porn occasionally, and she doesn't give a good, healthy damn that I do. 

Any breaks I've taken from watching porn have been my own, if I feel I'm relying on it too much, or it begins to feel too dirty. I sometimes struggle with the moral implications of porn, especially as it I watch it more now than I did as a teen. Those are my choices and conflicts however, and my wife never, ever asks me to cease. She asked me to show her a few example of things I like to watch, and I did, and she said cool, it turned her on, and it actually sparked us to have sex that night.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I believe it can be damaging to a relationship and, in this instance, it is a clear betrayal / violation of the OP's boundaries. I can't say that I believe that it is cheating, per se, because there is no direct interaction between the parties.


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## Done_Trying_ 4_Ingrates (Apr 29, 2012)

So if the big boobed blond across the street came into your house and masturbated while you watched and did ur thing thats ok... because your not touching her? Maybe if she brought her friend and gave you a show?


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## Done_Trying_ 4_Ingrates (Apr 29, 2012)

Whats funny is I was into before I met my husband and he acted like he wasn't into that! He obviously was a closet porn addict??? Seems weird... I guess it's just more exciting to hide things and lie about it


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

Looking at porn is not cheating. 
It is not something that is being done to you, it is something that you do not like other people doing.

It might be better to say that lying and deception is generally cheating.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

YinPrincess said:


> I actually do consider it cheating, for one reason, first and foremost: I have specifically stated that I believe it isn't acceptable in a relationship (with me). There are plenty of other women who accept and even enjoy it, without violating my boundaries within a relationship. Of course, this has come up in my marriage a few times and caused way more grief for the both of us. I guess when you accept someone's apology you assume it won't happen again, but it always does. I believe it to be an underlying issue of respect and personal integrity... Especially when lying and deception are secondary issues.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Porn leads to many problems and often leads to root problems in a relationship. 

Yet some deny this despite what all logic says


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

If your partner is meeting your sexual needs and you still visit porn sites its a problem. If your partner deliberately sexually rejects you then they should not have any say in how a person meets their needs including porn. 

I remember once crying (not really) in the shower, furiously masturbating, hating being rejected for the 100th time and begging for sex from my hateful wife. She walks in catching me in the act and laughs and calls me a loser. Yes porn kept me sane.

Funny thing is that when I was getting a steady amount of sex porn sites didn't even register with me.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Sanity said:


> If your partner is meeting your sexual needs and you still visit porn sites its a problem. If your partner deliberately sexually rejects you then they should not have any say in how a person meets their needs including porn.
> 
> I remember once crying (not really) in the shower, furiously masturbating, hating being rejected for the 100th time and begging for sex from my hateful wife. She walks in catching me in the act and laughs and calls me a loser. Yes porn kept me sane.
> 
> Funny thing is that when I was getting a steady amount of sex porn sites didn't even register with me.


Your wife's behaviour was abusive, IMO. To deprive you of sex and then _laugh _at you when you took comfort in the most natural way available to you was beyond cruel...


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## MrsKy (May 5, 2012)

Do people actually believe nonsense like "porn is cheating"? 

Next thing you know, having a celebrity crush will be tantamount to sleeping around.  

Nobody can be physically or emotionally intimate with someone who is on a friggin' screen or in a magazine. Cheating requires one or both of those types of intimacy.

Our sex life is off the charts; we just enjoyed some afternoon delight today. :smthumbup: I am a woman with a high sex drive and my husband appreciates that. Sometimes I am horny late at night and I don't want to wake my husband for lovemaking. So I get some free porn from the internet and have my fun. Nobody gets hurt and everybody is happy-I don't have to lie about masturbating or watching porn because those things have not compromised my sex life. 

Depriving a spouse of sex is very cruel and often vindictive. Just like a married person who doesn't engage emotionally, a spouse who refuses sex is not adhering to marriage vows.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

MrsKy said:


> Do people actually believe nonsense like "porn is cheating"?
> 
> Next thing you know, having a celebrity crush will be tantamount to sleeping around.
> 
> ...


And it's you for the win! I agree 1000% with everything you've written here. :smthumbup:

Love, love this! Sanity!


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