# The OM Social Stigma: confused.



## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

I don't know whether I'm being naive here, so shoot me down if I am...but I have a query about the oft-used term 'PoS OM'. In my own marriage, I got to develop an obsession for my wife's OM and was always trying to work out how I could get her back by competing with him.

I'm new here and I've been reading a few of the lengthier 'classic' threads and from what I see, the OM seems
to be.._'What Women Want'_?

In almost all of these threads the advice and encouragement given to the Betrayed Husband is to:
* better yourselves
* get down the gym and get muscular
* eat better
* drink less alcohol
* raise your Sexual Ranking'

Sorry Ive I've misunderstood, but arent all of these things 'positive aspects' improving yourself that attract a woman in general....and if so, by that logic, the OM must have something going for him other than being a 'devious, sly, no morals [email protected]'?

The threads Ive read and picked up on in specific are Eric415's and RDMU's whereby, in a supposedly safe and solid marriage, the OM seem to have totally captivated the wife in a way that the loving husband never could compete with (up to a point):
intelligent, attractive, successful, physically built, sexually adventurous, machiavellian/go-getter types...

Is the OM really a 'PoS' or, like me, did the husband 'drop the ball' and the wife looked around and found someone better?


Confused.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Cheaters are by definition POS.

My belief is if you are so unhappy then divorce FIRST then find someone better.

It's a total bs excuse that somehow the BS had anything to do with the cheating.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I think the PoS designation comes from the OM using his advantages to prey upon married women as opposed to legitimately available women. It can also be about his lack of ethics in acquiescing to the advances of a married woman, or to the likelihood that he is married and cheating as well.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

POS has nothing to do with physical attractiveness or charm. It's an issue of character. By definition, a man who sneaks around sleeping with married women and breaking up families is a piece of sh!t.

Hopefully, the BH's who improve themselves in the manner suggested never sink to the level of a POSOM in character.

(I will say, though, that the POS designator has been a problem for me since I came to TAM because in my field it means 'part of speech.')


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

davecarter said:


> In almost all of these threads the advice and encouragement given to the Betrayed Husband is to:
> * better yourselves
> * get down the gym and get muscular
> * eat better
> ...



You're not getting it.

All that advice to better yourself and do right for yourself is about YOU, not your wife, not the OM. So comparing yourself to the OM (it could have been him, it could have been another man) is useless. Your wife made a choice. Whether your marriage was bad or good, the point is, your wife chose to cheat. That is on her. It's not about whether the guy has some pluck, a good job, is hot, works out, smells good, is a d*uchebag. It's not about him OR you. 

The reason we tell people to do those things on the list is so they can begin to feel better about THEMSELVES and work on moving through the murky waters of betrayal. 

So, is the OM a POS? Is your wife? Are you? It doesn't matter. It's not about YOU--what she chose to do. It's about her. 

Get it?


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Keep in mind the self improvement stuff is for you. In my case the pos om was someone that did not have our financial problems, family problems. He was fun and adventure, rainbows and unicorns. I was short of money, arguments and perceived to be the person holding her back. 

Later my wife learned that she was just a piece of a$$ for him and he did not care about her at all.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

You have to understand that the OM will have the "POS" label put in front of him because he is having sex with another man's wife. That's despicable. But you should not read too much into whether the OM is truly a better person or not. I'm sure what is probably true of most cases is that the OM was available to the WW as a shoulder to cry on, and you know also that in the early parts of a relationship there is a honeymoon period where the quirks of a partner are typically overlooked. As the husband, you are judged in the harsh light of reality, and that your quirks and any neglect will build into resentment where your sins are magnified.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

The POS designation has more to do with the OM's moral compass in engaging with an already married woman than it does with his physique or career goals. A guy can certainly be an "intelligent, attractive, successful, physically built, sexually adventurous, go-getter type" and still be a POS. Crummy people are crummy people, whether or not they belong on the cover of Forbes or GQ.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

davecarter said:


> ...
> 
> In almost all of these threads the advice and encouragement given to the Betrayed Husband is to:
> * better yourselves
> ...


I think the wife is equally a POS, if not more-so. She`s the one who committed the adultery. But yes, the OM is a POS, even if the husband has "let himself go" over the years. There is no excuse for having and affair or sleeping with a married person.

The thread you mention...it's like the OM fulfilled the wife's fantasies, and she was willing to forsake her husband to pursue the Adonis of her dreams. Pure selfish lust, and I'm sure it would leave many men thinking how could they compete with that. That happens to women too, where the man leaves for the younger, hotter sex-pot...wife may feel ugly and fat, unwanted, used and thrown away. The new person appears exciting.

Those methods of suggestion for BH`s is to help them have immediate focus (other than the affair trauma) and to help them feel better about them selves. Often , there is no bigger ego destroyer for a man than being cheated on. It can consume them with thoughts of not being good enough. Focusing on health and fitness is a great outlet, not so much for picking up other women...that's just a nice side effect.

Sure, the OM may have other things going for him other than being this sly, sexy beast. Also, the marriage likely has other issues, and the woman has underlying issues which had the potential to open the door in the first place. Even the husband has issues, maybe letting himself go, etc. Lot's of things come to mind in these areas, where to start...each marital breakdown is unique, even when there are common problems and situations.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

Yes, POS refers to their bad character. Sadly, many times both the WS and the married POS convince themselves they are "rescuing" each other from their horrible marriages. Perfect way to justify the swath of destruction they leave in their wake.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

davecarter said:


> I don't know whether I'm being naive here, so shoot me down if I am...but I have a query about the oft-used term 'PoS OM'. In my own marriage, I got to develop an obsession for my wife's OM and was always trying to work out how I could get her back by competing with him.
> 
> I'm new here and I've been reading a few of the lengthier 'classic' threads and from what I see, the OM seems
> to be.._'What Women Want'_?
> ...


OM can work off of an initial attraction and fantasy phase. It makes things much more than they really are.

A dedicated wife would understand these risks are out there and wouldn't bite, just the same as a husband knows that there are many women looking to "steal" or have sex with a stable and secure married man.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

It takes 2 POS to Tango. If the OM genuinely doesn't know the WW is married, that's different.

The OM in my case was a homeless thug, stupid and has a face like a can of smashed aszholes. We both have about the same physique. I am better looking, more intelligent, have a great career, I'm talented and funny. She said he was funny too - so he had that going for him. But then she's an idiot as well, so fart jokes and crass observations probably had her rolling in the aisles. 

Go figure. From what I've learned here, cheaters more often than not trade down. It takes a true POS to bang another man's wife and tear apart a family. That being said, the cheater is an even worse POS.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

There really is no social stigma's any more for this kind of behavior. People are too afraid of being called "judgmental". I don't care personally, I don't mind the judgmental label; especially when I'm accused of it here. Having said that, I'm all for the BH, BW exposing the WW, WH, OM and OW for what they are and try to stigmatize them and their behavior. Call them what they are.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

davecarter said:


> I don't know whether I'm being naive here, so shoot me down if I am...but I have a query about the oft-used term 'PoS OM'. In my own marriage, I got to develop an obsession for my wife's OM and was always trying to work out how I could get her back by competing with him.
> 
> Bad choice of course. Likely not the first on in this scenario.
> 
> ...


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## JustGrinding (Oct 26, 2012)

My marriage was just fine until my wife went to work with POSOM. He was in a mentoring position, which he used to his advantage. He worked on my wife for two years before she finally relented and engaged in a full-blown PA.

Once she let him in emotionally, I was on the outs. I felt the deterioration in our relationship as she slowly let him in to meet emotional needs that were supposed to be my exclusive domain.

My marriage was missing what my wife took from it and gave to another. Period.

POSOM waged a secret war on my family for the express purpose of having a regular piece of a$$ at company junkets. He has no redeeming qualities.

To exalt them to a higher level than a faithful, committed husband, even with all his faults, is giving these pigs much more credit than they're due.

Pigs are only useful at barbeques.


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

davecarter said:


> Is the OM really a 'PoS' or, like me, did the husband 'drop the ball' and the wife looked around and found someone better?


I guess it depends. Some guys really are out to maliciously destroy a marriage by purposely targeting only married women, etc. "Those" types, I would say fit into the PoS category. I think they are probably the minority though.

For the most part, it's the spouse to blame (the WS). They are the one who stepped out of their "own" marriage. They are the one with the "issue". Many people seem to suffer from the "grass is greener on the other side" syndrome it seems. Maybe sometimes it is ... but the manner in which you get there can have dire consequences ... these people forget about that.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Many times the OM/OW actually have a PA with some one who is less then their partner. My wife did with her EA in 2010 and her PA that started in 2011 and ended a few months ago.

I compared myself to them and thought what did she find in them? It was the attention they gave her and of course her desire to seek attention.

The advice to drink less alcohol is so you don't do stupid things like I did.

The advice to better yourself, work out, eat better, are all coping skills and ways to help you through the emotion trauma you are facing. Exercise releases hormones, etc and helps your body deal with the stress you are going through.

And of course is advice to help you navigate this and if you D you will find yourself in a better frame of mind.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Healer said:


> It takes 2 POS to Tango. If the OM genuinely doesn't know the WW is married, that's different.
> 
> The OM in my case was a homeless thug, stupid and has a face like a can of smashed aszholes. We both have about the same physique. I am better looking, more intelligent, have a great career, I'm talented and funny. She said he was funny too - so he had that going for him. But then she's an idiot as well, so fart jokes and crass observations probably had her rolling in the aisles.
> 
> Go figure. From what I've learned here, cheaters more often than not trade down. It takes a true POS to bang another man's wife and tear apart a family. That being said, the cheater is an even worse POS.


The people in the game the OM are in, know what to say, they understand a married situation and how to appeal to the spouse. They know what they want to hear, their fantasies, etc.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

JustGrinding said:


> My marriage was just fine until my wife went to work with POSOM. He was in a mentoring position, which he used to his advantage. He worked on my wife for two years before she finally relented and engaged in a full-blown PA.
> 
> Once she let him in emotionally, I was on the outs. I felt the deterioration in our relationship as she slowly let him in to meet emotional needs that were supposed to be my exclusive domain.
> 
> ...


But they surely know how to wedge themself into that position.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

treyvion said:


> The people in the game the OM are in, know what to say, they understand a married situation and how to appeal to the spouse. They know what they want to hear, their fantasies, etc.


Yes, they are manipulators...but it takes a willing participant to be manipulated into trashing everything important in your life and your family's life.

There were many women who appealed to me during my marriage - more intelligent, sweeter, funnier, attractive physically, driven, etc. I was married, so I didn't bang them. That was a choice I made. Cheaters have the same choice...they choose to betray.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I don't see this as a zero sum game. Saying that the OM is a POS doesn't imply that the WW is not. It's just easier to label the devil you don't know than the devil you do.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Make improvements in your life for yourself. 

Competing with om is near impossible. As a husband you share the day to day stresses paying bills, managing family responsibilities, household chores etc. with om it is pure fun an escape from the day to day grind. Fantasy is rarely less appealing than reality. 

Hot forbidden sex without the day to day stresses in life and shared responsibilities. All the what ifs and what could be... Do you really want to feed a selfish lying cheaters ego by attempting to compete with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I don't see this as a zero sum game. Saying that the OM is a POS doesn't imply that the WW is not. It's just easier to label the devil you don't know than the devil you do.


And there in lies "the rub". I think there is a real fear within the BW/BH to label the WW/WH a POS or Scumbag or Slvt or whatever. It's just so much easier to go after the OM/OW because they are removed form the personal relationship (so to speak). However, the BW/BH needs the stigmatizing more so than the OM/OW; that's where the punishment belongs.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Healer said:


> Yes, they are manipulators...but it takes a willing participant to be manipulated into trashing everything important in your life and your family's life.
> 
> There were many women who appealed to me during my marriage - more intelligent, sweeter, funnier, attractive physically, driven, etc. I was married, so I didn't bang them. That was a choice I made. Cheaters have the same choice...they choose to betray.


They might not look at it as manipulators, but they play a role which has supply and demand to it. I didnt' say it was right, but there are many singles who dont' think it's a big problem to satisfy someones spouse if the other spouse cannot do it.


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## CASE_Sensitive (Jul 22, 2013)

Here is a song from Sloan called the Other Man (from their perspective).

not sure if we can directly embed here, but
Sloan The Other Man Video - YouTube

Here are the lyrics:

You know he's not the one for you but that's no fault of mine.
He knows that I'm a friend of yours but doesn't know I've crossed the line.
We've all been in one situation or another we regret.
I know you've got a man in the picture but it hasn't stopped me yet.
Now I'm the other man, no one's rootin for me.

If I'm the other man, nature will abhorr me.
You know I want to keep my distance, does it happen anyway?

He knows you're going to drift apart and there's nothing he can say.
I know that he's a stand-up guy, but that's none of my concern.
We've all been in one situation or another, it's my turn.

To be the other man, no one's sympathising,
When you're the other man that everyone despises.

The love that I've still unbeknownst to you.
He's going to find out that the rumours are true.

He'll found out so I'll tell you because,
I know you've got a man in the picture but it hasn't stopped me yet.
You gotta find out before he does.
We've all been in one situation or another we regret.
Now I'm the other man. No one's rootin for me.

Yeah, no one sympathises,
If I'm the other man, nature will abhorr me.

When you're the other man, that everyone despises.
Yeah, yeah,
We've all been in one situation or another,
We've all been in one situation or another,
We've all been in one situation or anothe

Read more: Sloan - The Other Man Lyrics | MetroLyrics


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

davecarter said:


> I don't know whether I'm being naive here, so shoot me down if I am...but I have a query about the oft-used term 'PoS OM'. In my own marriage, I got to develop an obsession for my wife's OM and was always trying to work out how I could get her back by competing with him.
> 
> I'm new here and I've been reading a few of the lengthier 'classic' threads and from what I see, the OM seems
> to be.._'What Women Want'_?
> ...


OM isn't a POS because they have muscles.. they are a POS because they would touch another mans wife.. that they would be a party to the entire thing, and not have any honor or integrity. That they sneak, lie, deceive, and help and encourage someone elses wife to do destroy their family. They help someone rip apart a lifetime, to get a piece of strange or to bolster ego.. They are a self centered pile that only cares about self gratification. A non-POS would not be a party to that, and if they really cared about the woman, they'd lay off the player routine and be a man... a respectable man, not a POS man.

Not every wife cheats with a man that's in better shape than the spouse, that's a myth. 

The 'better yourself, lift weights', and 'eat right' is more for the BS state of mind, health and to release endorphins etc... not to win the woman back or to find new women. It's for him, not for her.

The 'drink less booze', is because you're depressed, and that won't help you think clearly after suffering a trauma.. not to reduce your beer gut.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> And there in lies "the rub". I think there is a real fear within the BW/BH to label the WW/WH a POS or Scumbag or Slvt or whatever. It's just so much easier to go after the OM/OW because they are removed form the personal relationship (so to speak). However, the BW/BH needs the stigmatizing more so than the OM/OW; that's where the punishment belongs.


I don't see anything wrong here.
It's natural and understandable. An likely convenient or even necessary in many cases of you are going to R.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I don't see this as a zero sum game. Saying that the OM is a POS doesn't imply that the WW is not. It's just easier to label the devil you don't know than the devil you do.


WW is also being a POS while in the A.. they are being cruel and heartless B words.. lying to family, sneaking, doing horrible things that crush the marriage. Both parties involved are POS for doing what they are doing. 

They can stop being POS, by becoming decent human beings and not crapping on people that care about them and themselves. It's not a complicated formula.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

davecarter said:


> I don't know whether I'm being naive here, so shoot me down if I am...but I have a query about the oft-used term 'PoS OM'. In my own marriage, I got to develop an obsession for my wife's OM and was always trying to work out how I could get her back by competing with him.
> 
> I'm new here and I've been reading a few of the lengthier 'classic' threads and from what I see, the OM seems
> to be.._'What Women Want'_?
> ...


Yes, that's right.

It's all the above. Men become "beta-ized" by marriage. Married men with one wife have lower testosterone than single men or polygynists. In the West, married men tend to be deferential to women and turn into Average Married Chumps (AMC). Now consider that the Pareto Principle tells us that in a natural state, 20% of the males are responsible for 80% of the reproductive offspring and we find that most women are not attracted to most men, but most men are attracted to most women. This means many, or maybe even most, women are "settling" when they marry. It's a fuse, just waiting for a match.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> And there in lies "the rub". I think there is a real fear within the BW/BH to label the WW/WH a POS or Scumbag or Slvt or whatever. It's just so much easier to go after the OM/OW because they are removed form the personal relationship (so to speak). However, the BW/BH needs the stigmatizing more so than the OM/OW; that's where the punishment belongs.



I will agree with you that BW/BH often chooses to "label" the OM/OW as the "bad guy" in the EA and/or PA. It would almost have to be a natural coping mechanism to project the majority of your anger/rage/blame onto someone other than the spouse with whom you are attempting to reconcile. As a FWS, I believe that the blame lies with, both, the WS and the AP, but that the WS is the person who betrayed you and with whom the vast majority of your anger and the blame should lie. I think if the AP was your "friend," then it would be a double betrayal. I, personally, never tried to deflect any of my husband's anger away from me and onto the AP. The AP could not have become a factor in my marriage unless I had allowed him to be. In my own EA/PA, I was the instigator in the relationship. The truth is, he did not destroy my marriage (my husband and I had, both, already done a thorough job in doing that) and he certainly would be having no part in the reconciliation process. 

Now, to address the OP, my opinion, as a FWS, is that a WS's choice of AP isn't about how their own spouse (or their AP, for that matter) looks, how much money they make, how successful they are, how much sex appeal they have, how adventurous they are, blah, blah, blah, blah, etc....... One universally agreed upon fact about infidelity is that it is always a "selfish act." So, TBH, it wasn't about what my husband was or wasn't, had or didn't have. It was about ME, ME, ME. It was that simple. It was how the AP made me feel about me. Nothing more, nothing less. My spouse and my AP, coincidentally (or not???) worked in similar fields, made comparable amounts of money, and even had similar personality traits; both, being somewhat introverted and intellectual types..... Physically, they bore no resemblance to one another. My husband is far more "my type" in the "looks" department. But, the AP filled a void in my life that had been missing for a very long time. He made me feel beautiful, desirable, interesting, witty, appreciated, wanted and needed. He listened to me and he talked to me. It was affair land. The land of unicorns and rainbows. The land where work, bills, household maintenance, and the obligations of raising a family do not exist. But, again, it wasn't about my husband and it wasn't about my AP (not really.) It was about how my AP made me feel about me.

Now, back to you, Middleman. You are certainly nothing if not honest in your posts about how much you detest WS and AP's. That's your prerogative and I have neither the intention nor the desire (any longer) to attempt to sway your thinking towards becoming more compassionate or more interested in understanding, rather than condemning, those individuals who have become involved in extra-marital relationships. You are who you are. 

But, I am compelled to say that I find your never ending comments regarding stigmatizing and punishing the WS's to be...... well, frustrating, at best. My BH had options. He could have chosen to divorce me and move on without me. If he had chosen that option, then it would have been a colossal waste of his time (which we all have precious little of) to spend his life attempting to stigmatize and/or punish me. Beyond simply sharing his side of the story with family and friends, I would think that moving on and away from the cause of one's suffering would be the healthiest choice for any BS. Instead, my BH chose to attempt reconciliation with me. I read on TAM, all of the time, that it is the BS's choice whether or not to reconcile. Well, it is their choice whether or not they want to attempt to reconcile, but the WS has the same choice. If my BH's idea of reconciliation meant that our life going forward would be a life filled with him "punishing " me and wanting me to be "stigmatized" there would have been NO reconciliation. I would imagine that desiring to continually punish your former WS (along with some WS's being truly unremorseful and not doing the heavy lifting that is absolutely essential in a successful reconciliation,) is the one of greatest reasons that most reconciliation attempts fail. 

If the marriage was troubled prior to the "A," then in order to reconcile, both the BS and the WS are going to have to give 100% of their efforts to make it work. If both parties are unwilling or unable then it's best for everyone to move on. The truth is, I had been punished enough in my marriage prior to my EA/PA. I had no desire to go back to a marriage that was worse than the one I had already betrayed. A truly remorseful WS will want to make amends. They won't have to be begged, coerced, cajoled or threatened. If so, you are absolutely in a false R. I want my husband, my children, and myself, to heal. If I can't heal, then I can't help them heal. Desiring to punish your spouse is not conducive to healing and reconciliation. There will always be natural consequences of infidelity. There is so much shame, guilt and humility. Our children are adults, they know. That was a devastating consequence. But, honesty with our children wasn't intended as a punishment for me, it was to help them understand what was going on because it was obvious that all Hell was breaking loose around here. We told my in-laws (at my suggestion) because I felt that my husband needed all of the support he could get. They been very supportive of all of us. I have willingly given my husband all of my passwords, I go out of my way to account for my time, I send him text messages, emails and I often call him throughout the day. He doesn't demand it, he doesn't have to. I do it because we are reconciling, because I love him and because I want to give him as much help as I possibly can in order to help him heal from my betrayal. I would so much rather give him something than for him to have to ask. I try to anticipate his needs and if I can see that he is having a bad day I don't avoid him just hoping that he won't bring "it" up. I ask him how he is. I ask him how he's feeling, encourage him to share his pain with me so that we can bear it together. This is not punishment, this is reconciling. For his part, well, he no longer has his head shoved up his a$$. I am never left doubting that he loves me, adores me, cherishes me and desires me. He no longer copes with the stresses of life by withdrawing from everything and everyone, including me and our children. He is very proactive about our future; our marriage, our family, his own health and well-being and his love for me. Those are all healthy ways of dealing with life, with or without betrayal. They are also very desirable qualities in a mate. 

People often stay married and spend the rest of their lives punishing one another and, consequently, everyone around them, their children, too. That isn't reconciliation. Why would anyone want to waste a precious moment of their life punishing someone else? Living well is the best revenge. Living well, together, is reconciliation.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Couple thoughts on this one. PoS is easier for you, as the betrayed, to picture them. The villain slinking around in the shadows. That thought is a ton easier to absorb than knowing it’s not quite like that.

My wife’s EA partner. Exboyfriend. She pursued. I think he was a BH and seriously messed up; His wife left him for another man. PhD, traveled, rich, and generally a really nice guy. Honestly, most around here would like him too and feel sorry for him. He did resist my wife’s advances. But like any of us BS’s, seemed drawn to her words of “good man”, “attractive”, “good father”, “treated unfairly” etc. and all that ego boosting after being so crushed. I have a hard time hating him. I see him as broken, and unfortunately, looking at my wife for validation and emotional stuff to fill his own insecurities (instead of finding it from within). 

And my WW (and I) destroyed him too. I forced complete NC after the false R. So she just dumped him and true to form, blamed him for her screwed up marriage. Don’t know what transpired in him over the next six months, but he killed himself. And when I feel a bit of guilt or responsibility for that; I remind myself he was moving in on my wife and what a PoS move that was no matter how nice or broken he seemed. So I feel detached from it. His choices, his mistake tangling with a known self-absorbed vindictive woman ... He could have contacted me and I could have given him the low down; But he knew he was doing wrong and trusted someone he knew screwed me over much like his own ex-wife. He made his own bed. PoS idiot.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

In my view, the AP (of either sex) Is a complete POS because they do not have the common decency to keep themselves out of another couple's M.

Even though one of the partner's has opened the door and invited them in (the POS WS), the other partner certainly has not given them an invitation to enter and completely f up their, and in many cases their children's, life.

A person who would do that to a stranger who had in no way injured them is by definition a scummy piece of filth, deserving of nothing but contempt as a human being, regardless of what their other personal qualities may be.

They are, and will forever be, a POS in my book as long as they remain unrepentant and unwilling to change.

Like anyone else with immoral or anti-social behaviors, they can always reform themselves and give up their appalling behavior/lifestyle.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Warning: This is only my observation based on my experience but my comments are candid. They may offend and upset some readers who abhor or are sensitive to the views of the AP. 

From my experience, people typically date, marry, have affairs with others in their own league. Regarding Dave's question, and from my perspective, women don't cheat because some better looking guy just happens along. Women cheat because they have lost romantic interest in or given up seeking romantic interest from their husbands. Woman in a fulfilling loving relationship don't cheat. There are few exceptions.
I was the POS ya'll are talking about. I was an adjunct escort for a few years. My "dates" were set up by a female friend with willing wives who had it, for one reason or another, with their husbands. There is nothing special about me. I favor Ducky on NCIS (and did when he played on the "Man from Uncle") and a little less than six feet tall. (although I was and am in decent physical shape) I was there to fill a void I was asked to fill. As bad as it sounds, and what the average AP most likely feels, the reason for their betrayal was none of my concern. If it wasn't me, it would be someone else. It's not my job to keep other people in line. By the time she was with me, her feeling of loyalty to her husband was long gone and she had made up her mind she needed something outside her marriage. And that was not my fault. 
Virtually all said they had lost interest in their husbands because their husbands lost interest in them. I don't know the whole story. But I've been around enough to know the betrayed spouse's hands are usually not totally clean in the reason for affair; at least in the cases I'm familiar.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

ThePhoenix,

My best friend is a 'reformed' OM. 

I have told him that he was a complete POS when he was younger, and if one of the guys he '****'ed ever finds out and comes to beat his a** he will deserve every bit of it.

He has sheepishly admitted he knows its true. He feels stupid and remorseful for how he acted back then. 

And he feels extreme guilt about what he did to these men.

I have never heard him say that they undoubtedly deserved it because their wives felt they were lacking in some way.

You may not have intended it to come across this way, but it seems that you are saying exactly this.

You seem to have no remorse at all that you have insulted other men, who had never done a single injury to you, in the worst way possible.

If that is the case, then I really have no further responses to you on this issue, since I see no use to the uncivil exchanges that occasionally break out here on TAM.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I think the PoS designation comes from the OM using his advantages to prey upon married women...


...because she is weak, defenceless and cannot resist the advances of OM?



Jellybeans said:


> You're not getting it.
> All that advice to better yourself and do right for yourself is about YOU, not your wife, not the OM. So comparing yourself to the OM (it could have been him, it could have been another man) is useless. Your wife made a choice. Whether your marriage was bad or good, the point is, your wife chose to cheat.


I get it....to a degree. But it's the characteristics of the OM that are usually magnified by the WW before/during the affair I'm trying to get a handle on.



Plan 9 from OS said:


> I'm sure what is probably true of most cases is that the OM was available to the WW as a shoulder to cry on, and you know also that in the early parts of a relationship there is a honeymoon period where the quirks of a partner are typically overlooked. As the husband, you are judged in the harsh light of reality, and that your quirks and any neglect will build into resentment where your sins are magnified.


This post encapsulates the situation of my wife, her OM and me, however, rather than view the OM as a 'PoS OM', (_which I did for a good while_) it tuns out he isn't the scum I originally though and is probably good for her given my behaviour toward her.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_Women cheat because they have lost romantic interest in or given up seeking romantic interest from their husbands. Woman in a fulfilling loving relationship don't cheat. There are few exceptions.
I was there to fill a void I was asked to fill. By the time she was with me, her feeling of loyalty to her husband was long gone and she had made up her mind she needed something outside her marriage. 
Virtually all said they had lost interest in their husbands because their husbands lost interest in them. I don't know the whole story. But I've been around enough to know the betrayed spouse's hands are usually not totally clean in the reason for affair; at least in the cases I'm familiar_

Interesting post. I don't deny that many women feel that their husbands have lost interest in them, sadly that's yet another one of the many pitfalls of marriage.

I also know that many BH, including myself, never lost interest. In my case, sex was multiple times a week, date night at least once a week, little or no arguing, spent nearly every evening together talking and touching. 

We were always telling each other I love you, and she would regularly say that it was "you and me forever", and "I love our little family". 

I was floored when she gave me the ILYBDLY speech.

So she lost interest in me. I try to remember whether or not she hinted at it, said things that I didn't pick up on, but I can't.

Anyway, water under the bridge. She didn't love me anymore and wanted out. OK, I can live with that, just tell me, leave, file D, wait 3 months until final, and date. 

Don't cheat on me. 18 years, can you at least give me that? Don't lie, betray and humiliate me. It's cowardly.

As far as the OM, I don't think it makes much sense to direct anger at him. I did in the beginning, but I know my ex is responsible for this. She wanted to cheat, not only cheat, but find someone to have a soft landing with. It would have been someone else.


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

Yep,

Sometimes the BS forgets that it could have been the WS that was the seducer/seductress wooing the OM/OW. It's always easy to blame the devil you don't know as someone said.

Besides, in the end it was the WS that held the knife and stabbed you in the back .. the OM/OW was just an accomplice who provided convenient access to a knife. 

I guess in the fog of betrayal, the BS many times doesn't want to believe that their loved one is the one primarily to blame for the betrayal. Hence the tendency to assign initial blame to the AP. There is always going to be an OM/OW/AP out there ... the WS is the one who has to have self-control.


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## Rottdad42 (Nov 26, 2012)

Okay I will bite. IMHO it's about honor, respect and damn it self control. How can you intentionally ruin a family and be able to sleep at night. To prey upon a person when they are at their lowest and jump at the chance. That's what makes them a POS. That title will not change. They deserve it. Man or woman. Doing the deed without an ounce of any of those things I mentioned earlier, you have a screw lose. You want it, you got it. Here's your sign. POS.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_it's about honor, respect and damn it self control. How can you intentionally ruin a family and be able to sleep at night. _

Their selfish cravings mean more to them than honor, respect and self-control. 

To knowingly be a part of destroying a family (or families) shows extremely bad character. 

Most of them have to rationalize it by convincing themselves that, well, my AP is no longer in love with their spouse, is going to leave them anyway.... 

My ex's AP was also married with 3 grown children who no longer speak to him. Lost his job and house and is paying alimony because of the affair. 

Good luck buddy. I know my ex. She'll get bored with you eventually.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

maincourse99 said:


> _Women cheat because they have lost romantic interest in or given up seeking romantic interest from their husbands. Woman in a fulfilling loving relationship don't cheat. There are few exceptions.
> I was there to fill a void I was asked to fill. By the time she was with me, her feeling of loyalty to her husband was long gone and she had made up her mind she needed something outside her marriage.
> Virtually all said they had lost interest in their husbands because their husbands lost interest in them. I don't know the whole story. But I've been around enough to know the betrayed spouse's hands are usually not totally clean in the reason for affair; at least in the cases I'm familiar_
> 
> ...


Good post and one that I can ID with and reflect upon: as I've pointed out in my own thread, I 'dropped-the-ball' and the OM picked it up.
It's one of those moments when I look back and I have to say "_You blew it, son_"

The 2nd huge mistake I made was allowing myself to obsess over the OM, his motives and what he was doing with my wife...instead of looking at why I treated my wife how I did and why I'd (sub-consciously) lost romantic interest in her.
As a result, I allowed their affair and our subsequent separation to 'paralyze' me into feeling I had lost her anyway and I didn't do a thing to try and get her back.
Their affair has steadily continued and we are now looking at Divorce.

For this reason alone, I can't really blame the OM - he probably can't believe his luck.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

davecarter said:


> ...because she is weak, defenceless and cannot resist the advances of OM?


No. Again, it was a choice. It had nothing to do with her not being able to "resist." It has everything to do with her choosing to go for it. She is an adult who CHOSE to do this. It's not about being hypnotized or magic or that anything "made" her to do it other than the fact that she CHOSE to of her own free will and of her own volition.

Get it?


Also, obsessing over the OM--is not unusual. So don't beat yourself up about that. It's normal to wonder about what this other person had that you didn't--at first. Until you realize, again, it's not about THEM or YOU. It was a choice SHE made.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I have issue with the AP(S) as I knew and had talked to them on a personal level. I felt doubly betrayed as I had helped them out in a jam, had them and their wives over and for dinners, and the entire time behind my back they were pursuing my wife (I believe she was the pursuer of one, but the other purposely would harass her, I never knew this, when I was not within eyesight of them until one day it went to far, and yes he had gotten her so drunk 3 stiff mixed drinks and 2 bottles of wine all just for her, that I believe she was raped by him, as she cried afterward and was never affected by the other, nor drunk with him either when she made her choices with him).

I still believe, and contrary to the position I see Phoenix taking, is that the APs were just as involved in the A and betrayal. Yes, if not them it would have been someone else, but that same position could be taken for lots of things in life and seen as a justification point but it doesn't make it right. We seem to have our moral compasses bent when it comes to adultery in this day and age. I think that if more people had their morals and values in place then adultery would be a lot less. 

Sure these women had a choice, and they had reasons for what they were doing, but that doesn't make it right and doesn't relieve the others of their burdens for partaking in this. In order for one to be an AP, they either have to remove care for other humans from their mind, or they have to fully believe what they are being told. If they were being told the truth by both sides, the perception would more than likely be different, as so many times we here that one side thought things were great/ fine in the marriage, yet the cheater has a laundry list of what was not to justify the A. Sure they fed Phoenix a story, but how much of it was truth and how much was justification. 

It all boils down to morals and values. If The A was so right and justified, then why when exposed are the APs not standing up and defending themselves and their actions, instead of running into hiding? Because they know that they have been played and lied to and that what they did was wrong. If it wasn't wrong, they would defend their position and not hide. Instead, they know that their moral compass is broken so they hide in shame. The phrase, if not me then someone else, is nothing more than justification. If everyone thought this and decided, it is wrong so it will have to be someone else as it isn't going to be me, there would be lots less cheating and betrayal in this world. 

Would the same stance hold well in other wrongs (especially those that are criminal offenses)? If you work for a company that has an unlocked safe open during the day and filled with cash, why not steal that money from your employer? Heck if it wasn't me then it would be someone else could be used in this situation as well? When a law stands to be broken, we take a different standpoint. 

If Adultery was a criminal offense would APs think the same way, and would they be more or less evil in the publics eye?


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_No. Again, it was a choice. It had nothing to do with her not being able to "resist." It has everything to do with her choosing to go for it. She is an adult who CHOSE to do this. It's not about being hypnotized or magic or that anything "made" her to do it other than the fact that she CHOSE to of her own free will and of her own volition.

Get it?


it's not about THEM or YOU. It was a choice SHE made_

Yes, choices. I can't relate to choosing to have an exit affair over ending it honorably. 

I have never and would never end a relationship that way, I wouldn't be able to respect myself. And what would I say to my children?


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Acabado said:


> I don't see anything wrong here.
> It's natural and understandable. An likely convenient or even necessary in many cases of you are going to R.


We can agree to disagree here. IMO, Letting the WS get away without some form of stigmatizing with family and friends is just part of letting them get away scott free with the crime. I'm willing to even bet that the WS looks at it as a sign of weakness on the part of the BS.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

russell28 said:


> WW is also being a POS while in the A.. they are being cruel and heartless B words.. lying to family, sneaking, doing horrible things that crush the marriage. Both parties involved are POS for doing what they are doing.
> 
> They can stop being POS, by becoming decent human beings and not crapping on people that care about them and themselves. It's not a complicated formula.


IMO, you guys are giving too much credit to reforming and remorse. Always remember that the WS is sorry they got caught. They are sorry their affair ended. They are sorry their double life was exposed. I'm not so sure that they are sorry about the damage they caused. If the WS cant take on a little damage after all the damage they caused, then where is the reform and remorse. Most criminals have to do some time or pay some fine and face being stigmatized; why not with infidelity. The reason why infidelity is running rampant, is because too many WS's are getting a pass.


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

*Woman in a fulfilling loving relationship don't cheat.* 
I agree with you and not just about women , men too.
but fullfilling the needs of partners in a relationship is on both of partners. do you think the BS knew what needs they were missing to fulfill. and even if they knew that gives their spouse the right to cheat. there are always problems in a relationship. if its solvable partners solve and if its not and the spouse can't get over that need its fairly ok to just end the relationship with awareness of both partners ( in the case of marriage they can divorce)

*I was there to fill a void I was asked to fill. *
your saying this like its a service. you didn't do them any good. there would come a time that they realize their mistake they have to live with guilt. don't you think it would be a better service if you tell them to talk to IC , MC or at least to get a divorce first. the truth is you really didn't care about them. it was just an ego boost. after all married women came to you to "Fill a Void".

*If it wasn't me, it would be someone else. *
yes it would probably be someone else. or they could get cold feeted after being rejected by you. the truth is it wasn't someone else it was you and that's on you.

*It's not my job to keep other people in line. *
your right it is not your job to keep them in line. but it was/is your job to keep yourself in line....... well ...... were you?

*I've been around enough to know the betrayed spouse's hands are usually not totally clean in the reason for affair*
BS's may have participate in the problems of the marriage but their hands are clear in the reason for the affair. that was the WS choice. they could talk , do IC , MC , hell they could divorce but you know what they didn't , they just cheat. ask fws here on TAM. see it for yourself.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> ThePhoenix,
> 
> You may not have intended it to come across this way, but it seems that you are saying exactly this.
> 
> ...


At the time I had no remorse. My friend who set these up was a member of country clubs and I played in this group. All of the girls were in marriage where the fire had went out for both H & W. Some of the wives knew there husbands had girlfriends and mistresses but neither wanted to leave the marriage. I viewed it pragmatically in that I wasn't taking away anything from the husband that wasn't already gone. From conversations I had, many would probably not cared.
I changed my ways a number of years ago when I met my wife. I didn't mean to imply that some deserve it. But in all honesty, marriage is like automobiles. They may break anyway but without proper maintenance, it's more likely to happen.


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> At the time I had no remorse. My friend who set these up was a member of country clubs and I played in this group. All of the girls were in marriage where the fire had went out for both H & W. Some of the wives knew there husbands had girlfriends and mistresses but neither wanted to leave the marriage. I viewed it pragmatically in that I wasn't taking away anything from the husband that wasn't already gone. From conversations I had, many would probably not cared.
> I changed my ways a number of years ago when I met my wife. I didn't mean to imply that some deserve it. *But in all honesty, marriage is like automobiles. They may break anyway but without proper maintenance, it's more likely to happen*.


if in your automobile analogy by breaking you mean cheating of one of spouses then I don't agree with you. to me breaking is like having a problem in the marriage. and cheating is not a solution to that problem.

let me give you my own version of automobile analogy.
imagine a couple that are driving in a car in a road. for whatever reason their car stops in the middle of nowhere and they cant start it again. on of the couple goes to inspect the engine see what happened. but when he/she get his/her head out of hood. he/she sees that his/her partner is driving in another car which stopped for her/him. how do you think our a little stranded traveler gonna feel?


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

ThePhoenix,

Thanks for clarifying that.

I have had some pleasant exchanges with you in the past, and frankly was a little shocked at the tone I thought I heard.

It is good to hear it was just a misunderstanding on my part.

I do see your point that some BH's are idiots in their M's, and I would never even think twice about an unhappy W in such a situation filing for D and moving on.

I just wish they had the courage to actually do that instead of engaging in cowardly cheating.

If you don't want someone because they no longer fulfill you, fine. But then stop using their money and support. Either give it all up or give an ultimatum and start working on your M.


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