# where to start?



## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

Don't know where to start this story. Married 25 years, and in hindsight, admittedly overly focused on responsibilities, raising children, to the detriment of "us". So, not a perfect marriage, but probably average or better. Slapped into reality two years ago by wife's forced admission of her affair with former college boyfriend (his wife was threatening to tell me if she didn't). In a state of shock, and after a false start (they both lied when committing to "no contact"), I pulled out all the stops, and sought best available advice. Engaged in faith-based marriage counseling, attended weekend "emergency" marriage seminar. Afterward, felt optimistically like we were on the right track, "pulling on the same end of the rope", reestablishing intimacy and a focus on "us" that was admittedly missing after 20 years of both of us focusing on child-rearing. Couple months later, wife sought individual counseling to deal with grief/shame, and to understand "what made me do something so out of character" (didn't seem like a bad idea to me at that time). Trajectory changed soon thereafter - her "eyes have been opened" and it's now clear to her that it's MY fault (she hasn't said this explicitly), and I HAVE TO CHANGE before anything positive can happen. Per her therapist (who has never met me and doesn't believe couple's therapy is advisable at this point) I'm a "controlling narcissist" and "the amazing part of the story is that this didn't happen sooner". I'm "punishing her" and "enjoy the control" that her admitted infidelity affords me. This, despite the fact that I've told no one, refrained from expressing extreme (justifiable?) anger, name-calling, and have been honestly motivated to save the marriage. Long story short, after two years, I'm basically still in limbo. Good days are followed by bad days with no real discernable trajectory. I don't want to go through my remaining years alone, but I don't know that I can bear what feels like a demand that I own what I believe is rightfully her responsibility for her affair. Our two children are 18+ and I must say that apart from my general Christian faith, raising them have defined the better part of my life's purpose. To be brutally honest, my happier moments now more frequently occur when I'm apart from her, but my adult life and identity has been built around her, our children, and our families, and I still find it difficult to believe/accept that she has actually had an affair, and that our relationship isn't what I've always believed it to be. Beyond that, I can't even bear the thought of hurting our family, friends, and chruch by revealing the shocking facts. Lots more to the story, given its twenty-five year history, but I'm sure that this is already too long. Aside from my acknowledged human frailty, I honestly aspire to do God's will in this situation, but I can't honestly say what that might be. I have no real human support system, as I haven't told anyone personally close to me (e.g. friends, family). Truly, I don't even know why I'm writing this post (never done anything like this). I often find myself returning to the first thought I had upon revelation of the affair - "she consciously decided to leave you in her heart and mind before she ever made the decision to leave you physically by cheating". I often wonder if I'm just continuing to willfully ignore the obvious - that she only chose to stay with me when it became clear to her that he wasn't about to voluntarily leave his wife and family, and that she recognized that by objective measure, her life with me was actually decent.


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

I'm glad you came here, I don't have any specific advice for your situation right now but if you stick around a while others will have plenty. I will say that it may be a good idea to add some paragraphs to your post, it doesn't bother me but some people will skip right over it when it's hard to follow. Good luck to you. I should also add that traffic is not as high this late in the evening [most people here are in the states] but if you don't see many responses soon I'm sure there will be plenty tomorrow.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

Sounds to me like she went to a terrible therapist who shifted
blame onto you for her actions. What a typical copout. 

Listen, YOU didn't make her cheat. She CHOSE to cheat.

Would you be willing to go to MC together?

If so, I would suggest finding someone who specializes in infidelity
and not returning to the one she's been seeing.

My ex did the same thing. Went to therapy to get help and came
out blaming me for everything, when I was nothing but a good
loving (and faithful) husband to her.

You mentioned you're happier when you're not around her...
maybe you two could separate for a while and see how you feel?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

First of all, FIRE that therapist. Stop any payments. There are many quacks out there who have no idea how to deal with infidelity. This one is NOT holding her feet to the fire and making her own up to her cheating. Plus, I'm sure the therapist has only hear her side of the story and I can bet you that she's demonizing you to her therapist.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

Thanks for a quick reply and initial advice re: posting.

I guess I'm trying to gain something more than I've gained from "trolling" others' posts these many months. It would be easier to say that my question contains its own answer, if I was only brave enough to face it. But maybe it's not that simple.

Bottom line - Given the best interests of everyone involved - me, her, our children, our families, our friends, God's will - how should I approach this situation? I'm sure others have faced something very similar and can share their accumulated wisdom. At 50+, I've lived long enough to know that the world has seen my situation before and will see it again, and I can learn from others' experiences, and hopefully contribute my own lessons learned.


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

On second thought, I do have a question for you. You are a christian as am I. You say you have not exposed the affair to anybody, why is that? EDIT: Whoops I reread the initial post and realized you said this "I can't even bear the thought of hurting our family, friends, and chruch by revealing the shocking facts." I see.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

AS long as you define yourself solely through others, your cheating wife, kids, church, etc., you will not be able to move on and get through this. You need to find out who YOU are. Start doing a hard 180 (google 180 infidelity). Start taking care of yourself first. Start working out if you don't already. Pursue hobbies and interests of yours, and if you don't have any, get some.

You have to realize that the marriage you had is DEAD ! She killed it, not you, by engaging in sex with another man. You may or may not be able to R at some point with your WW, but the relationship will be a "new" one.

Your are responsible for 50% of the problems in the marriage, but SHE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR 100% OF THE CHEATING !

You need to understand this. So many new comers here fall into the trap that you are, and blame themselves for their partners cheating.

You state that you can't imaging breaking up the marriage / family. Have you asked yourself where your WW's concern was for your marriage / family when she was banging another guy ??

Also, the thearpist your WW had is total garbage if that is the advice she is giving. Of course, that assumes that your wife is telling you the truth about it. Remember, cheaters LIE !

One final thing, you need to EXPOSE the affair ASAP. Cheating thrives on secrecy.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

Nostromo said:


> On second thought, I do have a question for you. You are a christian as am I. You say you have not exposed the affair to anybody, why is that?


Good question, and I'm not sure which answer(s) apply:
(1) I'm still hopeful that we can recover and don't want to damage "our" relationships with friends and family.
(2) The situation embarrasses me as a personal failure, rightly or wrongly.
(3) I avoid unpleasant confrontation - it would be obvious to her that I've told, and that might be the "straw that breaks the camel's back" in our relationship.


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## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

25years said:


> Good question, and I'm not sure which answer(s) apply:
> (1) I'm still hopeful that we can recover and don't want to damage "our" relationships with friends and family.
> (2) The situation embarrasses me as a personal failure, rightly or wrongly.
> (3) I avoid unpleasant confrontation - it would be obvious to her that I've told, and that might be the "straw that breaks the camel's back" in our relationship.


1) She's the one that's done the damage.
2) She's the one who should be ashamed, not you.
3) Then what makes you think she'll stop?

4) You doing nothing about it will be the "straw that breaks the camel's back".


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

Fair enough, I think your reasons are pretty common but I don't see how it is biblical. John 8:32
New International Version (NIV)
32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

I'm not trying to upset you, I think what your wife did is deplorable, however living in fear of what others will think is no way to live, plus she will likely never take full accountability as long as you keep her dirty secrets for her.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

25years said:


> Good question, and I'm not sure which answer(s) apply:
> (1) I'm still hopeful that we can recover and don't want to damage "our" relationships with friends and family.
> (2) The situation embarrasses me as a personal failure, rightly or wrongly.
> (3) I avoid unpleasant confrontation - it would be obvious to her that I've told, and that might be the "straw that breaks the camel's back" in our relationship.


1) Your WW has already damaged those relationships all by herself by cheating.

2) It is embarrassing, but if you begin exposing, you are going to see a lot of people who will support you, and believe me, in the end, SHE is the one who will be embarrassed, because she is the one who cheated.

3) Time to put on your "big boy pants" and start confronting this situation head one big time. 

There is a common saying here on TAM that :" If you want to save your marriage, you can't be afraid to lose it" Sounds counter intuitive, but its true. 

You are operating out of a place of fear right now, and this will only hasten the demise of your marriage.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

barbados said:


> AS long as you define yourself solely through others, your cheating wife, kids, church, etc., you will not be able to move on and get through this. You need to find out who YOU are. Start doing a hard 180 (google 180 infidelity). Start taking care of yourself first. Start working out if you don't already. Pursue hobbies and interests of yours, and if you don't have any, get some.
> 
> You have to realize that the marriage you had is DEAD ! She killed it, not you, by engaging in sex with another man. You may or may not be able to R at some point with your WW, but the relationship will be a "new" one.
> 
> ...


As others have observed, the therapist is clearly hearing only her side of the story. The conversation in which she revealed his "diagnosis" of my narcissism began with "he told me not to tell you this, but you need to know that this professional thinks...". I guess I don't want to believe that my wife of 25 years - the mother of our truly wonderful children - could be so willfully manipulative and destructive of our 25 year relationship. I guess maybe I'm hoping that she has fallen under some evil influence which she will recognize and fight if I can hold on. Maybe I'm even hopeful that is IS my fault and therefore within my power to change.

Despite the fact that this probably sounds pitiful (does to me), it's really not pity I'm after, but wisdom based upon experience and faith. I appreciate everyone's sincere advice and support. I will definitely check out "180 infidelity" and FWIW, I'm a physically fit lifelong devotee of regular exercise, and preach the value to anyone who will listen.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

In hindsight, I do believe that my complicit secrecy was a mistake - had I exposed the truth two years ago, I think her perspective on the reality of the situation probably would've been starkly different. With the passing of two years, however, I wonder about the value of revealing it, vs. the emotional impact on the kids and our elderly parents.

FWIW, I did confront the POS OM - initially via phone, then in person after I discovered evidence that he failed to keep the "no contact" pledge he made to me during the phone call. I'm also relatively confident that his fear that the affair would be revealed to his kids ultimately did prompt him to stop all contact. And my wife's expressed anger toward him gives me some confidence that he did, in fact, cease contact after I confronted him in person. 

While it's almost complete conjecture on my part, I suspect this POS OM (a law enforcement officer, btw) may be something of an ego-challenged "player" whose internal calculus led him to the conclusion that he'd be better off grazing in other pastures.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

Nostromo said:


> Fair enough, I think your reasons are pretty common but I don't see how it is biblical. John 8:32
> New International Version (NIV)
> 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”


Thanks for biblically-based perspective. Obviously, I struggle while weighing truth against grace and forgiveness. It seems clear to me that the bible does not advise complicit secrecy, but I do worry about the possibility of unnecessary emotional damage to our children that might result from my exposure of the affair at this point. Obviously, it's ultimately her fault, but I don't want to unwittingly or otherwise turn my relationships with my children into a self-serving emotional crutch.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

25years said:


> Slapped into reality two years ago by wife's forced admission of her affair with former college boyfriend (his wife was threatening to tell me if she didn't).


So she only confessed when the OMW threatened her with exposure. Whatever you heard from your WW, it's only the tip of the iceberg. You never got the truth and full extent of the affair. You can contact the OMW and she what info she has. 



25years said:


> In a state of shock, and after a false start (they both lied when committing to "no contact"), I pulled out all the stops, and sought best available advice. Engaged in faith-based marriage counseling, attended weekend "emergency" marriage seminar. Afterward, felt optimistically like we were on the right track, "pulling on the same end of the rope", reestablishing intimacy and a focus on "us" that was admittedly missing after 20 years of both of us focusing on child-rearing.


So she violated NC and then you busted your ass to R. That was your first mistake. Who was the one who committed adultery, you or her? You already know that the ONLY reason she agreed to R is because OM wouldn't leave his wife. Otherwise, she would have been gone. R is a precious, precious gift only given after the WS has done their best to deserved that gift. And that means doing the heavy lifting. Its never a good sign that you, the BS, has done most of the work.



25years said:


> Couple months later, wife sought individual counseling to deal with grief/shame, and to understand "what made me do something so out of character" (didn't seem like a bad idea to me at that time). Trajectory changed soon thereafter - her "eyes have been opened" and it's now clear to her that it's MY fault (she hasn't said this explicitly), and I HAVE TO CHANGE before anything positive can happen. Per her therapist (who has never met me and doesn't believe couple's therapy is advisable at this point) I'm a "controlling narcissist" and "the amazing part of the story is that this didn't happen sooner". I'm "punishing her" and "enjoy the control" that her admitted infidelity affords me. This, despite the fact that I've told no one, refrained from expressing extreme (justifiable?) anger, name-calling, and have been honestly motivated to save the marriage.


Like I said, fire that no good therapist and find one that is actually experienced with dealing with infidelity. You are not in True R, you and her are rugsweeping.












25years said:


> Long story short, after two years, I'm basically still in limbo. Good days are followed by bad days with no real discernable trajectory. I don't want to go through my remaining years alone, but I don't know that I can bear what feels like a demand that I own what I believe is rightfully her responsibility for her affair.


You are so severely codependent. You CAN find someone better. Look, I've been divorced before. And this year will be my 25th anniversary with this wife. BUT, I can absolutely pull the trigger on divorce on a moments notice if she EVER violates NC or has another affair.



25years said:


> Our two children are 18+ and I must say that apart from my general Christian faith, raising them have defined the better part of my life's purpose. To be brutally honest, my happier moments now more frequently occur when I'm apart from her, but my adult life and identity has been built around her, our children, and our families, and I still find it difficult to believe/accept that she has actually had an affair, and that our relationship isn't what I've always believed it to be. Beyond that, I can't even bear the thought of hurting our family, friends, and chruch by revealing the shocking facts. Lots more to the story, given its twenty-five year history, but I'm sure that this is already too long. Aside from my acknowledged human frailty, I honestly aspire to do God's will in this situation, but I can't honestly say what that might be. I have no real human support system, as I haven't told anyone personally close to me (e.g. friends, family). Truly, I don't even know why I'm writing this post (never done anything like this). I often find myself returning to the first thought I had upon revelation of the affair - "she consciously decided to leave you in her heart and mind before she ever made the decision to leave you physically by cheating".


You have no support system because you never exposed her affair, instead you swept it under the rug and kept her secret. This was never your secret to keep and she never experienced any consequences of her affair. And what did you get in return? You got emotionally abused. She actually feels justified in committing adultery.



25years said:


> I often wonder if I'm just continuing to willfully ignore the obvious - that she only chose to stay with me when it became clear to her that he wasn't about to voluntarily leave his wife and family, and that she recognized that by objective measure, her life with me was actually decent.


Again, OM wouldn't leave his wife, which is the only reason she didn't leave you. You are Plan B. That is all.


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

No problem, I certainly will say a prayer for you and your family. I will say that is always possible your wife could have a "Damascus road experience" but you may be waiting a while my friend the selfishness of a woman who would cheat on the father of her kids mixed with a coddling therapist and relatively no consequences [at least as far as exposure goes] does not a repentant wife make. Like I said earlier though stick around here and there will be more people to give you their view on the matter.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Until you get some self esteem there is nothing anyone can do for you.

You wife knows you, better than you know her.

She knew you would not expose or divorce her. This informed her decision to cheat.

And she was right.

Stop therapy. Expose. Detach.

This will happen again. Unless you man up.

And never fight to stay with a cheater. She should be fighting to win YOU back.

Sorry if that was harsh, but you need to wake up and get control this once and for all.

Now.

God helps them who help themselves.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

barbados said:


> 1) Your WW has already damaged those relationships all by herself by cheating.
> 
> 2) It is embarrassing, but if you begin exposing, you are going to see a lot of people who will support you, and believe me, in the end, SHE is the one who will be embarrassed, because she is the one who cheated.
> 
> ...


I am convinced that moving past fear is definitely part of the answer, and I appreciate your objective affirmation. At the same time I need to guard against responding out of unproductive anger, which has too often been my primary reaction to fear.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

25years said:


> Thanks for a quick reply and initial advice re: posting.
> 
> I guess I'm trying to gain something more than I've gained from "trolling" others' posts these many months. It would be easier to say that my question contains its own answer, if I was only brave enough to face it. But maybe it's not that simple.
> 
> Bottom line - Given the best interests of everyone involved - me, her, our children, our families, our friends, God's will - how should I approach this situation? I'm sure others have faced something very similar and can share their accumulated wisdom. At 50+, I've lived long enough to know that the world has seen my situation before and will see it again, and I can learn from others' experiences, and hopefully contribute my own lessons learned.


Right now god's will has nothing to do with it. God's will didn't allow for her to cheat did it? I'd leave that to the side and focus on the aspects right in front of you. 

Nothing wrong with forgiveness if there is repentance right? But if you're unrepentant, unremorseful then there can be no progress moving forward. She has to own up to her actions but from the sounds of it, it doesn't seem like she is sorry for banging her ex.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

25years said:


> I am convinced that moving past fear is definitely part of the answer, and I appreciate your objective affirmation. At the same time I need to guard against responding out of unproductive anger, which has too often been my primary reaction to fear.


You need to get angry. Think about it, you didn't cheat. You were faithful and worked hard to support your family. What did you get in return? Cheated on. She's not truly remorseful and unrepentant. Use that anger constructively, turn it into resolve.

Either she starts doing the heavy lifting, which means owning up to the affair, that it was NEVER your fault. It was all on her. You are only responsible for 50% of the marital problems, but she chose to cheat.

A truly remorseful WS is willingly transparent, letting you monitor them and verify there whereabouts and if they are abiding by NC. Why? Because they want to rebuild trust.

You need to get into individual counseling yourself because of your codependency issues. Start the 180 - look it up. It will help with the codependency.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Wow. The damage that some marriage counselors can do is so sad. That's what you get with an unregulated "profession".

Did you know that marriage counselors as a group have a higher divorce rate than the general population?


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## standinginthegap (Jan 16, 2014)

All it takes is a whole lot of prayer, & faith, trust and hope the way I like to see it. I sent you a PM to elaborate.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Do you know that you are a good man, a good husband and a good father?

If that's what you are, no words of another can make you what you are not.

So your problem is not what you are, it's what your wife believes that you are.

So how do you get her to see the real you? The good man, the good husband, and the good father? The blessing in her life?

Give her the life that she wants.... the life of a separated and / or divorced adulteress. A life where she is denied the presence of a "good man", a good husband and a good father. That's the only way for her to see who and what you are.

And you should endeavor to make that life without you as unpleasant as possible. Anger from her family over the fact that she destroyed what they all cherish (and the level of betrayal to them) is of prime importance.

Her living on her own outside of your house, your support, your conversation, your infleuence is also of prime importance.

And you keep moving on the path to a greater life for yourself and your family (by removing this destructive presence from it and being the greatest man you possibly can be), until you see her wanting despereately to return to it.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

For your own peace of mind, google personality tests, narcissistic personality test and see if you can take it on line.

Put a var in her car to see if the affair or another affair has started back up.

Get the two books linked to in my signature immediately.

Her counselor has to go.



Print this off and read it with your wife.

Here is a list of what you wife should be doing, its never too late.

*Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

*


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

It has been suggested, to find a good counselor that can deal with infidelity, search out the local groups that deal with sex addiction and sex abuse. They should have a good list of counselors that know what they are doing.

Quit letting your cheating wife run the show.

You probably need to look at the 180 too. She is taking you for granted and needs to see how things will be without you.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

^^ yes got another counselor and look into the 180.
your wife will probably want to keep this counselor she hearing what she wants from the counselor and it does not sound right. If so do not pay for it out of your money.

you are not controlling
if controlling means trying to save the marriage at all cost well then maybe 

It is never to late to expose, you can make it look like someone else did it, like the OMW (other males wife).

another option or at least if all fails you can divorce and then if that happens tell you adult children the truth. " you mother had an affair 2 years ago with a married man and we have not/can not recover(ed)"


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

I've been married a long time also. Your wife knows you better than you know yourself. That's why she knows you will never leave her. She is selfish. She may not love you but just be staying for appearances or finances and lack of a better alternative. Truth is, you don't know what her therapist told her, he might have told her 5 things favorable to you and 5 unfavorable, and she is just giving you the unfavorable. She could be lying to the therapist.

The problem is probably not the therapist, though it's definitely not helping.

The problem is that your wife doesn't feel that you will leave her, no matter how bad she treats you. And it doesn't bother her to treat you bad. She may be able to manipulate her thought process to justify the affair. SHE is NOT the type to cheat, in fact, she HATES cheaters, therefore, it MUST be because of YOU.

As Lord Mayhem has stated, you are too afraid to lose the marriage.

Maybe it is because you aren't used to posting in a forum, but you come across as very unemotional regarding what usually is a very emotional subject. If anything, I sense sadness over loss of your relationship and fear over losing it or not getting it back, rather than anger at what she's done and how she now is treating you.

In many situations, once the husband finds his backbone and lets his former cheating wife know that he is ready to leave and won't tolerate poor treatment, the wife wakes up and realizes she doesn't want to lose her husband.

If you are such a bad guy, why is she still with you? WHY? Have you ever asked her that? Have you tried telling her, if I am so bad, you should leave, or I will, but I refuse to accept this treatment from you any longer?

Sex brings you closer. What is your sex life like? Affection, touching, telling each other nice things brings you closer. How affectionate are the two of you?

Focusing on the kids is something I can understand. You didn't probably give it much thought until you found out about the affair. But it wasn't going to change by itself, it took the affair for you to realize it. Your current situation is no different in that respect - it's not going to change by itself. You need some type of event to change it, otherwise, it will continue indefinitely.

It sounds like you have been the unselfish giver and she has been the selfish taker for your entire relationship. I'm assuming a lot here, but that's what I feel based on what you've posted so far.

What do you think?


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

I found that the longer period of time that passes after adultery the more our WS's blame US for 'not getting over it'. It's a no win situation for the BS. 

I suppose you could do some joint MC with a qualified therapist who might be able to explain to your wife the pain and deep hurt her A has caused you. And if she still wants to blame you after a course of 6 or 8 visits you may want to consider separation. 

We saw a minister for our marriage problems, the minister started hitting on me. So much for the 'experts'. A 'therapist' told my husband he wasn't responsible for his A, it was a "PTSD reaction to his friend's death'. Right. They tell the client what they want to hear to keep them coming back.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

I am about two years out, consider myself completely reconciled, similar age, similar length of marriage, my kids are younger than yours, and I handled it almost exactly the opposite of you from day one, offered to pack her bags and send her on her way to other man the day I found out. She was a sobbing, crying, snot-blowing hysterical mess. Without kids I wouldn't have bothered. I thought she still loved me, or I wouldn't have bothered. It was enough to let me give her a chance. That was my mindset. I'm not so sure your wife really loves you. She certainly hasn't shown it for the past two-plus years.

How long did the affair last?

Was she making plans to leave you to be with him?

Anger for his is a bad sign, the only thing worse would be love for him. Anger still shows deep feeling. She should be indifferent to him, bordering on disdain or disgust, but not anger. She should reach the point where she looks at him as a huge mistake on her part, that she never really loved him, he was not a better option than you, she was WRONG to do it. What I am getting from your post is that she feels she was RIGHT to do it, and maybe even that she should still be allowed to pursue it because you are so terrible and "controlling." I never got "controlling" from my wife.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

25,

At 30 years married, I "found" out my wife had been serially cheating on and off for the last 6 years of our marriage. What you say about focusing on family, house, job... not on each other is very familiar.

In a nutshell, where there's no Consequences, no change. Your wife has experienced none... in fact she has been vindicated. 

You are afraid you will push her away with any confrontation... Hear a truth... with that attitude, she has already left.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

1) Her therapist is crap. Actually crap just called saying the comparison is unfair... to crap.
2) I am a Christian. And I am a HUGE non fan of faith based counseling. Too much emphasis on saving the unsaveable no matter the cost. My wife and I did three of those. The first two had some value as his advice was concrete and we talked. The third was almost purely religious and none practical. I was praying long before he suggested it. Its getting worse not better. 
3) You may be a narcissist but would need to get a real opinion from someone with a brain, not this blame-shifting loser your wife is using.
4) Realize that some men DO NOT have the ability to process a physical affair. It is simply NOT in their psychology. There is no shame in this answer.
5) Reread the barbados post. Barbados consider this me liking that post twice!
6) I realize you see it as your failure. NO. Its NOT!
7) Ugh how many old boyfriends... Stay long enough and you will see patterns. pattern 1. speaking of which...
While it's almost complete conjecture on my part, I suspect this POS OM (a law enforcement officer, btw) 
Pattern 2. shes a badge bunny
may be something of an FRIENDING "player" who likes fvcking other mens wives. Fixed this for you. Pattern 3


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

indiecat said:


> I found that the longer period of time that passes after adultery the more our WS's blame US for 'not getting over it'. It's a no win situation for the BS.
> 
> I suppose you could do some joint MC with a qualified therapist who might be able to explain to your wife the pain and deep hurt her A has caused you. And if she still wants to blame you after a course of 6 or 8 visits you may want to consider separation.
> 
> We saw a minister for our marriage problems, *the minister started hitting on me.* So much for the 'experts'. A 'therapist' told my husband he wasn't responsible for his A, it was a "PTSD reaction to his friend's death'. Right. They tell the client what they want to hear to keep them coming back.


Original poster, the way your wife is behaving two years out also does point to some type of continued affair or at least FEELINGS for someone else, either with the original other man or a new one. How does your wife feel about her therapist? Ever hear of "transference"? Serious question, do you think there's any possibility she has something going on with the therapist, even if it's one-sided from her?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

25years said:


> Good question, and I'm not sure which answer(s) apply:
> (1) I'm still hopeful that we can recover and don't want to damage "our" relationships with friends and family.
> (2) The situation embarrasses me as a personal failure, rightly or wrongly.
> (3) I avoid unpleasant confrontation - it would be obvious to her that I've told, and that might be the "straw that breaks the camel's back" in our relationship.


I can see your valid points in all of these statements, but think about these possible facts that may not have occurred to you, but could very well be true or have happened:

(1) Maybe your friendships and family relationships are already strained because of her actions, as they may already know about the issues and are afraid to bring it up around you for fear that they reveal something to you and destroy your marriage (when I exposed, several of her friends seemed to show relief as they knew all along and had to walk on egg shells around me for fear of revealing her secret. I quickly ended those friendships as they were no friends of the marriage or mine by protecting her and helping her to cover her tracks. I found out who the true friends were. She wasn't even going to tell me that she had been confiding in them for years, and I found out the truth about what she was saying about me as well, and it wasn't good at all.).

(2) We are all embarrassed, even though we shouldn't be, but allowing her to continue to slander you to the counselor is just making it worse for you. She has a bad counselor if he is willing to diagnose and judge you having never met you and only getting one side of the story. This counselor needs to go as he is also not a friend of the marriage and sounds to be doing your WW and your marriage more harm than good. Even a mediocre IC would want to meet with the spouse at least once to get another perspective on the patient and possible background that can assist and reveal things that the patient may be reluctant to do or has forgotten, and then based on those meetings formulate a diagnosis and path for treatment.

(3) Maybe this is the swift kick in the pants needed to push the marriage on the necessary direction it needs to go. If she is unwilling to address and own her actions then is this someone that you want to be with and rely on for the remainder of your days?? 


Only you can decide what is best and works best for you and your marriage, but be prepared to live with those decisions whatever they may be, and that is when you will be your happiest and most satisfied with your life.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

So is he a player?... IF you want to know... I am rather well versed in the friendling player. Tell me what you found between first contact and the meet up.

Pretty much my standard set of logistical questions.
Where was the meet up generically? (car, hotel, your bed?)
Approx date first innocent contact? By her or him? Method?
Approx date first inappropriate contact? (flirty)
Approx date first outright bad contact? (dirty)
Approx date first make out
Approx date first oral/handjob
Approx date first PIV
Sexting? (y/n)
Pics sent by him?
Pics sent by her? If so at what approx date? Did they lead out?
Did she give him sex acts she denied you before? does she still deny you? (Dont need details)
Who was the primary pursuer?


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

25years said:


> I am convinced that moving past fear is definitely part of the answer, and I appreciate your objective affirmation. At the same time I need to guard against responding out of unproductive anger, which has too often been my primary reaction to fear.


One of the sentences that is repeated with some frequency here on TAM is "The therapist is an idiot." It applies here in spades.

OP, you need anger. Anger at yourself for allowing yourself to be treated this way. This is very productive anger. Even if your W is not currently cheating she is not motivated to work on a true R because she sees no need to put in the effort. And she's being enabled by the cement-headed therapist.

Be willing to end the marriage in order to save it -- on your terms.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

If you guys had M problems, she could have asked you to go to MC or divorced you. Having an affair was hardly going to solve it.
The affair is ALL her doing. 
SHE made herself do it and unbelievably YOU are now to blame? 
She says she doesn't know what got into her - as if she made no conscious decision? It's got to be somebody's fault so that somebody is you.
She has no remorse at all.

I think you have to get VERY firm now. No more Mr Nice Guy putting up with her nonsense. And a 180 too. 

Either she goes to MC NOW as in tomorrow - a good one who doesn't blame you - sheesh! or tell her you have no choice but to divorce. You can't keep living like this and you know it which is why you are here. She is abusing you. Maybe you were complacent but look at the effort you immediately put in to save your marriage, warned OM off and did all that counselling. If you were that disconnected from her you wouldn't have done all that. So she's wrong there too. Not good enough, especially for a WS.

You somehow have to shock her. 

BTW you are still relatively young with many years ahead of you. What makes you think you would have to be alone?

People will always talk and gossip. You will have to develop a thick skin. It's none of their business. But eventually it will become yesterday's news and they will gossip about someone else. So please stop feeling shame - you didn't have the affair. 

Good luck with it and I'm sorry you have had to go through that pain.


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## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

25 years, well my wife made it to 29 before cheating. I made a number of mistakes in dealing with my WW's A. I was thinking I was taking the high road by not exposing, I tried to be the nice guy and it all blew up in my face.

I am also a Christian and tried to find my way through the bible. I also did seek a faith based IC and MC but when I started looking for a good IC and MC I made sure they had a great deal of experience in dealing with A's. That was about the only thing I did right.

I was also worried about how my kids would perceive their mother if the A came out. I should not have been worried.

The pressures of the family is what really killed the A, made my wife detach from her feelings for the OM and take ownership of what she had done. Having your kids look at you and say really! was what slapped my wife into a real R and not the one I spent 6 months thinking I was in.

Once all this exposure happened I saw real remorse, real reconnection of our intimacy.

If you really spend sometime with your nose in the bible A's are addressed and while R is what is hoped for D is accepted. 

Did your wife ever feel like you would divorce her? throw her out? If those questions are no then she will never accept the blame for what she has done.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

25years,

BS's more often than not, make mistakes after a betrayal. I certainly made my share of them. 

You allowed her to rugsweep the A. You didn't expose, her consequences were minimal, and most importantly - like Will Kane suggested; she never felt that gut wrenching feeling that she would probably lose her husband for cheating on him.

But the good news is that some of those mistakes can be corrected.

First, you have to understand yourself enough to make a decision. Are you willing to endure an unremorseful wife and a false R for the sake of staying in this marriage? If yes, read no further. We can't help you.

If no; then I suggest you sit down with her and have "the" talk.

Perhaps, something like:

_Dear,

I love you and I want our marriage to succeed. But I don't think you have any idea how difficult your betrayal has been on me. To live with the knowledge that I'm you're plan B. After all this time, I've finally come to the realization that there is a reason why I'm not healing. It's because I've been tolerating your lack of remorse and blame shifting. I won't do that anymore. 

I made mistakes after this happened that I regret. I should have taken some time away from you to process what you did. I should have exposed this to your family and mine. I should have insisted, that you demonstrate remorse from day one. That's on me.

You need to understand that I accept no responsibility for your affair. None. You had other options and you chose to break your marriage vows instead. It's time for you to own what you did, acknowledge it to me, and make me believe it.

I need to know that you will take responsibility to help restore my trust in you. To do the heavy lifting. I may not know how to perfectly describe what true remorse is, but I've known you long enough to know, I haven't seen it.

I know I have my own issues to work on, but it's asking too much of me to focus on those issues while I'm in a false R.

So, I wanted to let you know how I feel and I hope you understand. The ball's in your court._

That's the type of conversation you should have with her. She'll probably ask you what other heavy lifting you're talking about. Tell her.

She may ask you if you're threatening divorce. Tell her it's not a threat, and you hope that she doesn't allow it to come to that, but yes, there's no other option unless she turns around.

If that doesn't wake her up, if it doesn't change her mindset - implement the 180 to detach from her, separate her from your bedroom, expose her to her family and your family, go talk to an attorney, and start working on your exit strategy.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

The diagnose is rather simple: She's totaly unrepetant. And she doesn't love you.
She cheated, her confession was done out of blackmail, she still persued MOM and was/is angry he used and dumped her (which she blames you for). Then she put the blame squarely on your shoulders and implies she did all this due your shortcomings and still demonizes you with that clearly unbelievable assement of "narcissims" as a copout to excuse herself for the affair and for the fact she won't move a finger to fix what she broke (as she's expecting you to overcome on your own).

At this point of the race she won't change, I don't believe it, she is who she is, despite it contradicts the idealized image you still have of her.
And you are clearly suffering from it.

Life is short man, start envisioning (and I'm talking the practical, logistic stuff) of a different life far away from this unremorseful cheater, professional victim. Start with the emotional detachement and self love (180) and talk to a lawyer, learn about the potential scenarios and then take action. If miraculously it becomes a wake up call from her (she won't, unlikely) and you can see, feel, consistent changes rather than lipservice then you can always reconsider putting the D on hold or change it for a favorable post nup to prevent financial destruction if she cheats again.

She had more than two years to fix this and she didn't. You gave it your best, she failed, once again.

Time to reject the state of denial you are still on.


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

I agree with Badmemory. You have to turn this around even if you do divorce. You have to put the focus back on you and take care of yourself. In the end that is all that truly matters. 

Clay


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Tell her she's right, you are to blame and given you rampant controlling ways and narcissism and inability to change you are going to let her free, free to persue MOM or any other paramour.
Tell her you realized you can't hold her hostage in this miserable situation anymore and that deserves to be happy so you remove yourself from the equation.
Thank her for the years she gave you, for the kids, ask forgiveness for your shortcomings and wish her happiness from now on.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

Your big mistake was when you found out about it was not making her take responsibility for her actions. You decided to keep this between you and her and she only felt remorse when you found out about it and with out any type of consequences to her she broke the NC which tells you that she and the OM didn't have any respect for you.

If it was me, I would let her know that your not controlling her but controlling the situation and let her no that you will NEVER take any fault for her infidelity. That's her doing not yours. She cheated, she owns it and she's the one that has to take the steps to put the marriage back on track.

As far as that IC she's getting, they stink and she needs a new one.

It's up to you to take the bull by the horns and let her know that her blaming you isn't going to happen and tell her that if she's not willing to fix the marriage then she's opening the path to the street and the fault will lie with her. 

Do not let her heap the blame on you or you'll be painting yourself in a corner that you can't get out of.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Tell her she's right, you are to blame and given you rampant controlling ways and narcissism and inability to change you are going to let her free, free to persue MOM or any other paramour.
> Tell her you realized you can't hold her hostage in this miserable situation anymore and that deserves to be happy so you remove yourself from the equation.
> Thank her for the years she gave you, for the kids, ask forgiveness for your shortcomings and wish her happiness from now on.


I think this is exactly right. She has been salving her own conscience by successfully blaming you, so give her the ultimate result of that. Stand up for yourself, your children, your life. Tell her that if she can't do the right thing to secure her own happiness, then you will do it...because you love her. And then go and find your own happiness without her. I guarantee you that it is there for you to find.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Tell her she's right, you are to blame and given you rampant controlling ways and narcissism and inability to change you are going to let her free, free to persue MOM or any other paramour.
> Tell her you realized you can't hold her hostage in this miserable situation anymore and that deserves to be happy so you remove yourself from the equation.
> Thank her for the years she gave you, for the kids, ask forgiveness for your shortcomings and wish her happiness from now on.


Pure awesomeness.

Damn we must have majored at the same place.

University of Sarcasm


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Op sounds like anything but a narcissist. Quite the opposite really.
I'm not a trained psychologist by any means, but I've seen narcissists.
Had to deal with them directly and indirectly.

i second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth the conclusion that her therapist is full of crap and beyond. Of course who knows what she's telling her.

She is unapologetic and arrogant.

I second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth the urging that she needs to be exposed for her evil deeds. 

Nothing will change until that happens


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

25years said:


> Don't know where to start this story. Married 25 years, and in hindsight, admittedly overly focused on responsibilities, raising children, to the detriment of "us". So, not a perfect marriage, but probably average or better. Slapped into reality two years ago by wife's forced admission of her affair with former college boyfriend (his wife was threatening to tell me if she didn't). In a state of shock, and after a false start (they both lied when committing to "no contact"), I pulled out all the stops, and sought best available advice. Engaged in faith-based marriage counseling, attended weekend "emergency" marriage seminar. Afterward, felt optimistically like we were on the right track, "pulling on the same end of the rope", reestablishing intimacy and a focus on "us" that was admittedly missing after 20 years of both of us focusing on child-rearing. Couple months later, wife sought individual counseling to deal with grief/shame, and to understand "what made me do something so out of character" (didn't seem like a bad idea to me at that time). Trajectory changed soon thereafter - her "eyes have been opened" and it's now clear to her that it's MY fault (she hasn't said this explicitly), and I HAVE TO CHANGE before anything positive can happen. Per her therapist (who has never met me and doesn't believe couple's therapy is advisable at this point) I'm a "controlling narcissist" and "the amazing part of the story is that this didn't happen sooner". I'm "punishing her" and "enjoy the control" that her admitted infidelity affords me. This, despite the fact that I've told no one, refrained from expressing extreme (justifiable?) anger, name-calling, and have been honestly motivated to save the marriage. Long story short, after two years, I'm basically still in limbo. Good days are followed by bad days with no real discernable trajectory. I don't want to go through my remaining years alone, but I don't know that I can bear what feels like a demand that I own what I believe is rightfully her responsibility for her affair. Our two children are 18+ and I must say that apart from my general Christian faith, raising them have defined the better part of my life's purpose. To be brutally honest, my happier moments now more frequently occur when I'm apart from her, but my adult life and identity has been built around her, our children, and our families, and I still find it difficult to believe/accept that she has actually had an affair, and that our relationship isn't what I've always believed it to be. Beyond that, I can't even bear the thought of hurting our family, friends, and chruch by revealing the shocking facts. Lots more to the story, given its twenty-five year history, but I'm sure that this is already too long. Aside from my acknowledged human frailty, I honestly aspire to do God's will in this situation, but I can't honestly say what that might be. I have no real human support system, as I haven't told anyone personally close to me (e.g. friends, family). Truly, I don't even know why I'm writing this post (never done anything like this). I often find myself returning to the first thought I had upon revelation of the affair - "she consciously decided to leave you in her heart and mind before she ever made the decision to leave you physically by cheating". I often wonder if I'm just continuing to willfully ignore the obvious - that she only chose to stay with me when it became clear to her that he wasn't about to voluntarily leave his wife and family, and that she recognized that by objective measure, her life with me was actually decent.


It's a blessing you are here.

Here's my number 1 rule when it comes to counselors.

Any counselor/therapist who allows their patient/client to not take responsibility for their own actions is worthless in their field.

The number one rule for developing as a person is to own your choices and decisions in life. If you aren't responsible for your own actions, how can you understand, change and control them in the future?

So your wife has found a counselor who works to get her money. Remember, counseling is like the pharmaceutical industry, there's more money in the treatment than the cure.

Unless your wife takes ownership of the affair, you can NEVER fix this. Here is the equation that so many wayward spouses fail to understand.

BS poor actions + WS poor actions = unsatisfactory marriage.

Unsatisfactory marriage =/= Affair

Unsatisfactory marriage = fix it or end it

The problems within a marriage are the responsibility of both parties. The choices made on how to HANDLE those problems are the individuals. Your wife could've said to you "I'm not happy, we need counseling or something or this marriage isn't going to work for me". She could've chosen to go to couples retreats. She could've done the second hardest thing on you and just written a note, left it on a pillow and said "I don't love you any more, I'm not happy so I'm leaving". But no, she chooses to get involved with another man. Sorry but her choices are hers and hers alone.

You are partially responsible for the state of your marriage PRE-affair, just as much as your WW is. Your WW is responsible for her actions of the affair.

Look at it this way, if the counselor's and your WW's logic holds true, then you could go out and have an affair because it's HER fault that you did it. SHE drove you to it. HER affair caused you to act a certain way. Heck (not that I'm REMOTELY advising this) that way of thinking sounds like what a physically abusive husband says to his wife. "You made me do it". Right? So does that mean you can throttle her and her counselor and your WW would have to accept it? OF COURSE NOT. Affairs and physical or emotional violence is NEVER an answer, but you get my point.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

25years said:


> Thanks for a quick reply and initial advice re: posting.
> 
> I guess I'm trying to gain something more than I've gained from "trolling" others' posts these many months. It would be easier to say that my question contains its own answer, if I was only brave enough to face it. But maybe it's not that simple.
> 
> Bottom line - Given the best interests of everyone involved - me, her, our children, our families, our friends, God's will - how should I approach this situation? I'm sure others have faced something very similar and can share their accumulated wisdom. At 50+, I've lived long enough to know that the world has seen my situation before and will see it again, and I can learn from others' experiences, and hopefully contribute my own lessons learned.


First God's will is to have a man and woman be faithful to each other, hence why adultery is one of the ONLY reasons the bible says it's okay to get divorced.

If your age starts with a 5, you still have plenty of years to enjoy your life with or without your wife.

Your children (fortunately) are old enough where a divorce isn't as traumatic and they may not like it, but they'll be able to accept it....but be honest about the why's

You need to look at your wife and ask the question, will I be able to love her fully again, as in remembering that she had an affair and it not feel like your heart is torn out.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

25years said:


> Thanks for biblically-based perspective. Obviously, I struggle while weighing truth against grace and forgiveness.


25,

Forgiveness requires contrition and restitution by the offender. Did I miss the part we she has done that heavy lifting?


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

RClawson said:


> 25,
> 
> Forgiveness requires contrition and restitution by the offender. Did I miss the part we she has done that heavy lifting?


She hasn't done any because 25years hasn't made her do any. 

Now all she is doing is classic, nasty, blame shifting.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

As a former chaplain and minister and currently a counseling therapist I will give you some things to chew on:

1. My wife lied to her "Christian" therapist. I thought and still think the therapist was very poor in that she could not see through my wife's lies. She gave my wife Meoldy Beattie's book, "Co-dependent No More". In the early 90's I went to a work shop on co'dependentcy. It was the rage in certain churches and Christian organization at the time. My mission was to get training in co-dependency, bring it back and train the staff. It was all New Age, pseudo psychology. I said it then and I still hold to this opinion that it is plain BS. Everyone is co-dependent when you read her book. That is her appeal. Her lists of co-dependent behaviors are very broad, contradictory and has no empirical data to support her claims. Everyone is a codependent according to her book. And this is what my wife's therapist had her read. Her two oldest brothers (both pastors) could not believe that this book was given to her "to help her". When I mentioned it to them they both said she is being led down a very poor path by her therapist.

2. Read Ephesians chapter 5. It is very clear about exposing. "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them."

3. Hebrews 13:4 " Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral."

4. I sought out a pastor last year and he lied to my wife and her brother about me, apoligized to my BIL but never to me nor did he clear things up with my wife. He believed her lies. When I told him that my wife did not repent, he said I am not capable of knowing her heart. WTH. I have dealt with folks in this area for years. I told the pastor that he is clueless. When my wife repented a few weeks later I knew it. When she turned her life over to Christ it was real. She confessed to everything, answered my questions, had a contrite heart. She came clean on all the lies and to this day has not blamed me for her A's. Your wife is unrepentant and is blameshifting. This is not the heart of a repentent sinner. My wife did the heavy lifting. Your wife is not remorseful, not repentant.

5. I went through a false R for over a year, she never ended the A after she told me it was over. When I put a VAR in her car about a year ago I got it all. Sex in her car, all the moaning etc. Please stop and think about all of this.

6. Read up on affairs online. Marriage builders, Focus on the family, and other sites will give you very good insights. You have done many things wrong and I understand as I did some of the very same.

7. I started the process for D last year. I was serious. But I never gave up on my wife's soul. I prayed like I never prayed before for her. I felt the M was over, but I did not want my wife to live a godless life. I literally dealt with demons. I am not really into that stuff but I know what I experienced and my sons and some in her family witnessed some of it. 

8. tthe pastor I turned to stated that the failure of the marriage was my fault and that I drove my wife into the arms of other men. I was of the opinion then and still am that I did nothing of the sort. Our M was pretty good over all. But my wife was in spirtual darkness. The pastor told my one son that he knew how to deal with me and that he is an expert in dealing in spiritual warfare. One of the last things I said to this pastor was, how clueless he was on my wife's repentance (he said he saw true repentance in my wife and that I was incapable of seeing it), I told the pastor, my wife finally repented and confessed everything to me and that I reached out to the XOM and led him to Christ and counseled him on how to get his wife back, after he begged me to help him. I said, if you are so spiritual then why did you believe my wife's lies, why did you lie about me to her and her family? I told him that you accused me of being controlling yet you keep saying I need to submit to your authority. One of the things I really do believe in is that you (25) are the spiritual head of your house. Take that role seriously. Pray for your wife. Pray for her soul. You have every right to D her. But don't buy into her view that you are to blame. You dash that thought into the deeps of He*l. Prayer is one weapon you have. The Scriptures is another weapon. Finding people of like mind is another one.

I am praying for you my brother.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

25years said:


> I am convinced that moving past fear is definitely part of the answer, and I appreciate your objective affirmation. At the same time I need to guard against responding out of unproductive anger, which has too often been my primary reaction to fear.


There's no reason to expose the affair if it has ended. That said, if she is suffering no consequences, she WILL cheat again. Especially with a dingbat counselor like she has.

"Wife, if you think I'm to blame for you cheating, go right ahead. You're welcome to think that while I divorce you. Which will it be?"


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## Differentguy (Oct 3, 2013)

turnera said:


> There's no reason to expose the affair if it has ended. That said, if she is suffering no consequences, she WILL cheat again. Especially with a dingbat counselor like she has.
> 
> "Wife, if you think I'm to blame for you cheating, go right ahead. You're welcome to think that while I divorce you. Which will it be?"


You say that there are NO reasons to expose the affair if it is over. What, in your opinion, is the reason to expose? Is it only to help stop the ongoing affair? Facing consequences is not a reason to expose?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Differentguy said:


> You say that there are NO reasons to expose the affair if it is over. What, in your opinion, is the reason to expose? Is it only to help stop the ongoing affair? Facing consequences is not a reason to expose?


:iagree: Even though it is a way to end an A, I also see it as a way to set the record straight as well. She has more than likely been painting a picture that is less than positive of the M and the H and these need to be set straight, as things said under the influence of an A aren't always the truth. No reason to be the only bad person in the M is how I see it (share that wealth).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Differentguy said:


> You say that there are NO reasons to expose the affair if it is over. What, in your opinion, is the reason to expose? Is it only to help stop the ongoing affair? Facing consequences is not a reason to expose?


Yes, it is done to STOP an affair.

Afterwards, IF you are reconciling, you should tell your former wayward that you want them to go to their parents and siblings (and/or yours, depending on the situation) and tell them the truth and apologize. IMO, that humility is one of the few things that will keep a former wayward from becoming wayward again - seeing the look on their faces when you admit what you did. Plus, those people can keep an eye out for suspicious traits.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

turnera said:


> Yes, it is done to STOP an affair.
> 
> Afterwards, IF you are reconciling, you should tell your former wayward that you want them to go to their parents and siblings (and/or yours, depending on the situation) and tell them the truth and apologize. IMO, that humility is one of the few things that will keep a former wayward from becoming wayward again - seeing the look on their faces when you admit what you did. Plus, those people can keep an eye out for suspicious traits.


Although, if the family doesn't value the M anymore than the WS did, it can backfire and do nothing. Their is no shame and humility involved when the parties being told think the actions were acceptable and justified (had I have let my WW be the one to spill the beans to her mother, it would have done nothing, as she thinks bad of me and believes everything the wife has told in the past, so she back my W in her decision to stray. Yep, a really great role model there.)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

When an affair is active, there's hope the family will say something; even if they don't, the cheater KNOWING that they know is sometimes enough to get them to rethink. Once the cheating has stopped, her telling her parents isn't done to get the parents to do anything; it's done to get HER to look them in the face and have to admit something horrible, to get the wheels turning in HER mind so she hopefully won't do it again.

And I should have added that she tells them IN YOUR PRESENCE. I figured that was understood. That way, she has to tell the truth, or else you just pick up, go home, and pack your stuff (or hers).


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

OP,

I'm sorry you are having to deal with this crappy situation in your M.

It sucks and I know its difficult.

But one thing that has come across in each of your posts, and it completely explains the predicament you are in, is absolute and complete fear of your WW.

You have failed to hold her accountable in any way for what she has done to your M and family.

And you still are terrified of taking any steps to resolve the issues arising from her A.

It isn't fear of 'hurting' your adult kids that is stopping you.

It is fear that she will leave you.

Stop living in terrified paralysis and start taking the actions and steps necessary to either restore your M or end this ridiculous charade where you are the source of all her scummy decisions.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I have wondered if I had exposed to her family and mine if the sexual EA my wife had in 2010 if her PA a year later would have happened. I did expose it to the OM and OMW and the wife was shocked. The OM apologized to me. But I kept it quiet as far as family went. A year later as my IC told me my wife would do it again and if the guy was local it would be a PA and that is what happened.

Expose to kill the A, I totally agree. Expose after the fact and during R?? Not sure. I would weigh the arguments above.

From my jaded point of view if the WS is not remorseful, not doing the heavy lifting, is blameshifting, etc. then why stay in a M where she basically does not care. If you expose will she see it as you just shaming her and controlling her? Frankly, in her state of mind I would not care too much as to what she thinks either way.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Dyokemm said:


> OP,
> 
> I'm sorry you are having to deal with this crappy situation in your M.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

This is from the website of the National Registry of Marriage Friendly Therapists:

_Individual therapy may undermine more marriages than even poor couples therapy. Because relationship problems are the main problem people bring to individual therapists, individual therapists are treating marriages whether or not they realize it. Unless the therapist has values that support marriage and is careful not to turn the non-present partner into a villain, individual therapy can undermine a marriage. Every experienced marriage therapist has heard these stories: a spouse goes into individual therapy, receives support for a one-sided view of the marriage problems, and becomes increasingly pessimistic about the marriage. The therapist then questions why the person stays in an obviously bad marriage. The other spouse is clueless that the marriage is unraveling in therapy, and is not informed until it is too late. These therapists do not intend harm, but often their orientation is to the personal happiness of their individual client who is distressed in a marriage, without enough regard for the welfare of the other spouse…._

Armed with this information, I would advise letting your wife know that you've become aware that the counselor she is seeing has done more harm than good for your marriage, and you have some conditions for not filing for divorce right away (though you still may end up choosing to do so, depending on how hard she works to help with your healing process), and one of them is ceasing to see this counselor immediately.

Another thing I'd advise is that another condition is she has to read the book (you should too, by the way) How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda MacDonald, and she should start applying the lessons ASAP. It's very short, an easy read - I highlighted passages I especially wanted my husband to see. One thing it points out is that the unfaithful spouse can't apologize too often, and it teaches them how to apologize properly - she's pretty far from THAT frame of mind, obviously!! It also helps wayward spouses to "get it" because usually they don't "get" how we betrayed spouses feel or why what they've done is so devastating.

Another condition should be marriage counseling, and the website mentioned above is a good resource. The National Registry of Marriage Friendly Therapists has bios of the counselors (they operate with a different set of values than most counselors - believe it nor not, not all marriage counselors are marriage friendly!), and you can check the bios to see if they have experience in working with couples dealing with infidelity. It's next to impossible to heal from infidelity without competent professional guidance.

I sense you aren't ready to file for divorce right now. If so, please at least consider divorce as an option at some point because then you can use it as leverage when giving your wife the conditions that you need in order to go forward WITH her. You need to proceed from a position of strength. No more rug sweeping, and not another session for her with that counselor! Best of luck.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

To everyone who has responded (hope my reply is directed toward all) - 

I am overwhelmed with the effort you have all put forth to help. It's obvious that the advice comes from experience, and is sincere. So glad that I finally took a step toward reaching out. And a big THANK YOU to all.

It's gonna take me a while to process all of this. It's probably obvious that I am tenaciously analytical - probably overly so. Consider it an occupational hazard of a professional life spent identifying and addressing potential points of failure (probably also why my posts appear "emotionless", as someone observed).

It does seem clear to me that one key element of "moving forward" for me involves stiffening my spine and thickening my skin. Failure to do so is undoubtedly part of the reason I find myself in this fix almost two years later. 

I should reiterate, however, that at an earlier point - following the intensive/emergency marriage therapy and followup counseling - she did seem sincerely repentant. The turn for the worse definitely coincided with the individual therapy (therapist is male, btw - several have assumed female). 

I'm not naive enough to say that the thought hasn't crossed my mind that there could be some sort of "EA" type attachment there - from one or both parties. I've also considered popping in on him, or maybe emailing him with my objective observations. I certainly don't want to pay for any of his advice at this point.

So, another firm conclusion is that I've got to address the situation with the IC, one way or the other. Is it naive to think that he could possibly be part of the solution, if he knew the "other side" of the story? I guess I'm leaning toward "yes, that's naive/wishful thinking".


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

25years said:


> So, another firm conclusion is that I've got to address the situation with the IC, one way or the other. Is it naive to think that he could possibly be part of the solution, if he knew the "other side" of the story? I guess I'm leaning toward "yes, that's naive/wishful thinking".


Her IC is NOT part of the solution. The IC's allegiance is to his client, which is your wife. He has no allegiance to you, OR to your marriage. Even if you got invited for one session to tell your side of the story, the very next session is where they will both tear apart your every word, gesture, and raise of your eyebrow. The guy has already diagnosed you, for crying out loud, and you haven't even been present. He is predisposed to dislike you and not believe you, and read all kinds of things into anything you might say. Trying to enlist him to help you OR your marriage is an endeavor that is destined to fail. Please don't bother.

I really think that therapy room is a place that is poisoning your marriage with each session. The sooner you put a stop to it, the sooner you might have a chance to turn the ship around. Turning a ship around is not quick or easy, but allowing it to continue heading toward the iceberg isn't smart - best to quit that course ASAP if you want to see your marriage have any hope of survival and possibly thriving again.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

25years said:


> The turn for the worse definitely coincided with the individual therapy (therapist is male, btw - several have assumed female).
> 
> I'm not naive enough to say that the thought hasn't crossed my mind that there could be some sort of "EA" type attachment there - from one or both parties. I've also considered popping in on him, or maybe emailing him with my objective observations. I certainly don't want to pay for any of his advice at this point.
> 
> So, another firm conclusion is that I've got to address the situation with the IC, one way or the other. Is it naive to think that he could possibly be part of the solution, if he knew the "other side" of the story? I guess I'm leaning toward "yes, that's naive/wishful thinking".


Forget about the IC, he may be and horrible one, he may be misguided.... he's not the issue here. Your wife refuses to be accountable.
And... If she's already buying and selling this "controlling" thing, what would you think she would tell if you reaches her IC? I believe it would be counterproductive.

Don't loose sight at the story, she's not being brainwashed by a poor therapist, she's the average unremorseful cheater, almost a cliché:
- She cheated, she wanted MOM, she was forced t oconfess, she still wanted MOM, she was dumped and still hurting due MOM's rejection.
- She dropped a few tears "given her situation", managed to have you silent and then, once she was sure you'd stay, she showed her true colors by putting the blame on you, with out without the IC colaboration.
- She claims you are controlling, paint you as narcissistic, refuses to help you heal and build the marriage back.

Blaming the IC is deflecting the issue, a form of denial, if it were her the only one to blame then you should take action, right?
You need to drop her from the pedestal man, she's very transparent, follows the script to a tee.

I'm very sorry but I must tell you the truth: she's not remorseful at all and she doesn't love you. It's an horrible situation for her (for anyone) to be in, can you imagine? It forces her to make up excuses for her inaction and "inappropriate" behavior (when the normal reaction if the reality were different would be to make amends!!) and to justify the more than predictable outcome (you, the bad guy, must file). Not rocket science.


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## po'drunk (Sep 27, 2013)

Try this. Tell her you have gone to see a therapist yourself. Inform her that this therapist you are seeing has diagnosed her with BPD with a dose of narcissism as well. Stand back and watch the gears of irony grind. It should be quite a telling moment.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> Her IC is NOT part of the solution. The IC's allegiance is to his client, which is your wife. He has no allegiance to you, OR to your marriage. Even if you got invited for one session to tell your side of the story, the very next session is where they will both tear apart your every word, gesture, and raise of your eyebrow. The guy has already diagnosed you, for crying out loud, and you haven't even been present. He is predisposed to dislike you and not believe you, and read all kinds of things into anything you might say. Trying to enlist him to help you OR your marriage is an endeavor that is destined to fail. Please don't bother.
> 
> I really think that therapy room is a place that is poisoning your marriage with each session. The sooner you put a stop to it, the sooner you might have a chance to turn the ship around. Turning a ship around is not quick or easy, but allowing it to continue heading toward the iceberg isn't smart - best to quit that course ASAP if you want to see your marriage have any hope of survival and possibly thriving again.


I agree.

How much experience in life do you need to know that there are two sides to every story, or that someone might be lying to you in order to make themselves look better? Even someone with zero professional training knows these things.

Anything you say to him will be used against you, especially if he has the hots for her, which I think you have to leave open as a possibility. She is exhibiting cheater behavior RIGHT NOW.

Number one sign of a cheater is the behavior - cold, distant, easily annoyed by you, everything you say is annoying, maybe she even recoils at an affectionate touch.

Number two sign is guarding the phone, though it wouldn't be the case if she had a burner phone. But your wife still has sign number one, the way she is behaving, which is the biggest red flag.

Would you consider putting a voice-activated recorder in her car and in a spot in the house where she is likely to talk on the phone when you are not around for a few weeks, to rule out some kind of ongoing affair? VARs have shed light on the truth for many posters here.

I also leave open the possibility that the therapist is actually OK but she is feeding him lies and/or she is just cherry-picking things he says that are favorable to her to pass on to you, but not anything that points to any fault in her. Based on her behavior, I don't think this last is likely, but I don't rule anything out.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Forget about the IC, he may be and horrible one, he may be misguided.... he's not the issue here. Your wife refuses to be accountable.
> And... If she's already buying and selling this "controlling" thing, what would you think she would tell if you reaches her IC? I believe it would be counterproductive.
> 
> Don't loose sight at the story, she's not being brainwashed by a poor therapist, she's the average unremorseful cheater, almost a cliché:
> ...


I agree with this as well.

The therapist is not helping the situation, but your wife is the cause, and if she is so feeble-minded that she would blindly believe a therapist FROM THE FIRST DAY SHE SAW HIM over her husband of 25 years, then is there any hope for her?

My advice would be to sit down with you wife and tell her what is acceptable to you and what is not acceptable to you in your marriage. Specifically tell her "I CANNOT CONTROL YOU, I CAN ONLY CONTROL MYSELF, AND WHAT I AM WILLING TO ACCEPT AND WHAT I AM NOT WILLING TO ACCEPT IN THIS MARRIAGE."

Then tell her what you are not willing to accept, what you expect to change.  DO NOT MAKE ANY ULTIMATUMS OR GIVE ANY CONSEQUENCES IF SHE DOESN'T DO WHAT YOU NEED UNLESS you are ready to follow through with them. Which at this point you are not. If she pushes to know what you will do if she doesn't change her behavior, tell her you aren't ready to disclose that yet. Of course, if you are ready to file, which in the end might be the only thing that snaps her out of it, then go ahead and tell her that. But it likely won't mean anything until you actually do it if you have always put up with her bad behavior with no consequences before.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I will give you a little of my story and hopes it helps.

2010 - my wife had a very sexual EA. I went for IC with a pastoral counselor (chaplain). He was very good. Got it. Said my wife would not stop and would have a PA within a year. He did not know my wife nor did he ever meet her and he was spot on.

2011 -2012 - after my wife's PA (I thought it had stopped) my new IC got it. She kept focusing on my wife. She kept telling me basically that she had no respect for me and in her way told me she was still cheating. She never met my wife.

2013 - counselor at Focus on the Family and some others I contacted, a few Christian psychologists and one Christian Psychiatrist, got it. All said the same thing about my wife and they were all spot on, just by me talking to them over the phone.

My wife's IC was lied to by my wife.

I don't know about your wife's IC. In my practice I challenge my clients. I don't put up with BS, yet they keep coming back and I sometimes hit them over the head with a 2 X 4 or as I often say, "I am putting on my Army Master Sergeant's boots and am kicking your in the arse". 

I will give a little boast here. I have not met most of my client's spouses. Yet, I will say with almost 90% accuracy I have them all pegged. I can tell you which ones have severe issues, which ones are mature and healthy, all based upon what my clients say. 

On the other hand. When I met with a pastor (recommended by the oldest BIL), over 1/2 dozen times, he called me a pathological control freak, after he met with my lying and cheating wife. This same pastor told me my wife repented and that I drove her into the arms of other men. My wife did repent, but it was in front of me and weeks after the pastor said I have no discernment about these matters.


Those who know me well will say that I am not controlling.

Now let's look at what you wrote:

*Couple months later, wife sought individual counseling to deal with grief/shame, and to understand "what made me do something so out of character" (didn't seem like a bad idea to me at that time). Trajectory changed soon thereafter - her "eyes have been opened" and it's now clear to her that it's MY fault (she hasn't said this explicitly), and I HAVE TO CHANGE before anything positive can happen. Per her therapist (who has never met me and doesn't believe couple's therapy is advisable at this point) I'm a "controlling narcissist" and "the amazing part of the story is that this didn't happen sooner". I'm "punishing her" and "enjoy the control" that her admitted infidelity affords me. This, despite the fact that I've told no one, refrained from expressing extreme (justifiable?) anger, name-calling, and have been honestly motivated to save the marriage.*

1. I do not see a controlling narcissist. Just the way you write and way you state things, I believe your story.

2. You don't know whether the IC believes in MC or not. This is based upon what your wife is saying.

3. It did not happen sooner!!!!!!! Code for (as you already know) you made her do it, it is your fault, and it is all justification for what she did, no accountibility, no remorse.

4. Her eyes have been opened!!!!!!!! To what? Honestly, what the heck does this mean?

My suspicions are: a. She is back into the A. b. Her saying you are controlling is the fact that she is cheating and does not like you snooping. This was the same thing my wife said during her cheating to people. That I am controlling. This is code for if you snoop and find out what the heck I am doing you are going to mess up my fun little world. We have no control over their activities, they cheat and yet we are controlling. Go figure. c. I may be wrong here but I just think the timing of going to IC was just a cover and she reunited with her lover. 

Time to VAR her car. I suspect big time that she is cheating again. She may had been sincere with all the marriage seminars and then got sucked back into the fog, or never left the fog but wanted to try to save the M by some feeble attempt or just wanted to appease you.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I wonder if your wife isreally even going to see her counselor. I wonder if a counselor really told her you were npd. Cheaters lie the same way water is wet,.it just how they are.

Like I said earlier, I think something is going on with someone. That's why all the justifying.

You really need to do some detective work.

Re counselors. In one of Dr. Harley's books, he wrote that he started his form of marriage counseling when he found that couples going to marriage counseling were no more likely to avoid divorce than those that didn't see a counselor. Go figure. You might want to read some of his books.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

I believe Gods will in our life is for us to have a fulfilled life. An abundant life; however, God never promised an easy life, but he did promise to help us get thru the tough times.

I admire you for trying, but you were relived of your marital vows the moment she spread her legs for another man.

You may have contributed to a bad marriage, but you are zero percent responsible for her affair.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

Will_Kane said:


> I agree.
> 
> How much experience in life do you need to know that there are two sides to every story, or that someone might be lying to you in order to make themselves look better? Even someone with zero professional training knows these things.
> 
> ...


While I can't say that I've discounted the possibility that there's some sort of contact that's behind her cold, distant, easily annoyed (you nailed all of those) behavior, the other thought that has crossed my mind is that she's actually still mourning the loss of the fantasy relationship. At the emergency seminar, the common wisdom seemed to indicate that "fog" of "limerence" generally lastws 3-36 months. I asked the question "what happens to limerence when the A is discovered and broken mid process?" I didn't get a satisfactory answer.

The smartphone was the primary instrument that began and facilitated the growth of the affair (which I believe lasted roughly 6+ months). As you can imagine, it's a primary trigger for me, and she is clearly addicted to the phone, although, with the exception of one ugly incident during our vacation, I can't say that I feel like she's taking measures to hide it. I don't think there's a burner involved, as my discovery of that two years ago (roughly a month after initial discovery) is what confirmed failure to abide by "no contact".

I spent months after discovery playing detective (ironic, given that the POS OM actually IS a detective - and I BUSTED his feeble a$$ attempt to hide the burners). I found that it really wore me out, and ultimately decided that if they were determined to continue contact, no efforts by a sane job-holding person could prevent it. Maybe the VAR is the ticket here, although I'm a terrible liar with zero poker face skills.

One other thought re: IC - It occurred to me that perhaps his probing at narcissism and related is actually a technique to diagnose her, given what I remember about "projection" from Psych 101 - we tend to identify those flaws in others' personalities that actually exist in our own.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So basically, you caught her cheating, told her to stop, she did, but then she didn't budge a single freakin' inch ever since in terms of making it up to you or taking responsibility. 

And yet here you still are...waiting, hoping, for her to get the picture and climb mountains to make it up for you. 

But she SEES you still are here, for what, 2 years? Two years of her doing nothing but blaming YOU? 

Guess what she sees? A doormat.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

weightlifter said:


> So is he a player?... IF you want to know... I am rather well versed in the friendling player. Tell me what you found between first contact and the meet up.
> 
> Pretty much my standard set of logistical questions.
> Where was the meet up generically? (car, hotel, your bed?)
> ...


Best answers I have:

First contact was a broadcast email from her employer that reached POS OM. He responded. Email chat began, followed by texting. Process evolved over couple months.

2+ months in, "innocent" lunch scheduled to "catch up on each other's lives". One lunch turned into several. At some point, lunches turned into makeout sessions.

Fuzzier here, but I believe that maybe 4 months into it, a late afternoon rendezvous at a location of one of his side jobs (again, he's LEO) turned physical (oral) in a car - supposedly his. Over next few weeks, more afternoon rendezvous, evolving into hotel meetups and PIV. Not sure how many.

Texting volume went through the roof during this period - 12,000+/month. Sexting, photo exchange (both - haven't seen them, but have emails that reference them).

Around 5 months into it, POS OM's wife found picture(s) on this highly trained professional criminologist's phone. Evidently smarter than POS OM, his wife called my wife at work on the office phone (open environment), told her what kind of [email protected] C***t she was - and my wife couldn't do anything but sit and listen. My strong suspicion is that POS OM had already given his wife the story that his "old flame" was throwing herself at him, and she evidently believed him, at least to some degree.

Four weeks later OM's wife found more evidence - not sure what. She called my wife in a fit of uncontrolled rage, insisting that she was gonna call me that night unless truth was revealed to me. I actually walked in on the tail end of a heated phone conversation. Couple hours later, wife confessed, although in classic fashion, details and additional facts trickled out over the next several days/weeks. OM's wife never contacted me. I'm confident she's never gotten anything close to the truth (my wife actually volunteered her opinion supporting this).

Late next day, wife calls me and says she wants to try to save the marriage. Told me they both agreed that they needed to end it and save their marriages. While I have no proof, given what she told me on the night of discovery, I'm very suspicious that they had some sort of discussion early that day in which it became clear to her that he wasn't going to leave his wife - at least not at that point.

Given that I had all passwords, phone access, etc. and was flat out crazy with monitoring and digging, they turned to burners. Through my ongoing paranoia-fed monitoring/digging, I discovered them and retrieved all of the records about four weeks later.

That's when I confronted POS OM in person and told him that I knew what was (still) going on. As calmly as I could, I told him that I seriously doubted that my marriage was salvageable at that point, and I merely wanted the ugly truth of their intentions so that I could move on with my life. 

I told him I knew the full story he'd given my wife - had email evidence, phone records, her confession, etc. With an eerie cool and calm, he simply denied all of it. I told him that I had emails in which he confessed to my wife that his love for her never died, despite almost 30 years of virtually no contact, that she was the most beautiful woman he'd ever met. That he never really loved his wife, and that she was a cold witch - slept in separate bedrooms, etc. The one bone he threw her was that "she's been a good mother to my children" who he "didn't want growing up in a broken home, since in his line of work he was painfully aware of what that did to kids". He ended the conversation with "I don't know what you want me to say. I love my wife and want to repair my marriage. I made a mistake - what else can I say?"

When I related the episode to my wife, she was clearly hurt and angered by his reaction. Something to the effect that "maybe he's not what I thought he was".

Our sex life: Nonexistent for couple months(?) by my wishes. Once resumed (following MC, seminar weekend, etc.), seemed quite normal, maybe higher frequency. After IC, began dwindling -- maybe twice/month at this point. Can't honestly say I've been the pursuer any more often than she has. Too much emotional baggage to have much desire.

Finally, primary pursuer in the affair? -- Tough question. About the best I can say is that it does seem abundantly clear to me that he identified and pushed all the right buttons to generate classic soap opera romance - his long held unrequited love, his silent suffering at the hands of a cold witch wife, his selfless sacrifice for the sake of his kids (left that out before - he maintained that he had long planned to leave his wife once his kids were out of school.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

25years said:


> While I can't say that I've discounted the possibility that there's some sort of contact that's behind her cold, distant, easily annoyed (you nailed all of those) behavior, *the other thought that has crossed my mind is that she's actually still mourning the loss of the fantasy relationship.* At the emergency seminar, the common wisdom seemed to indicate that "fog" of "limerence" generally lastws 3-36 months. I asked the question "what happens to limerence when the A is discovered and broken mid process?" I didn't get a satisfactory answer.


Her being cold, distant, finding everything annoying - at this point, two years past d-day - is NOT from the former other man, not unless she still is having an affair with him.

Look at the thread by Road Scholar http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/121442-no-sex-after-her-affair.html, his wife was acting like yours and it was only five months past the affair, he thought it had ended, but everyone here knew it had not. Also look at this one by wrsteele1 http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/47382-trapped-bad-marriage-help.html I could point to a dozen other threads here over the past two years where the case was similar. I can not think of any where no affair was found.

My primary suspect would be the therapist. I also would strongly suspect the first other man. The only way cheaters get caught is when they get lazy and you find the evidence that they carelessly left lying around. With technology as it is today, there are thousands of ways to stay in contact that are undetectable. Your best bet at finding out is the VAR. I could be totally off-base here and hope I am, but I put the chance of her being in a current state of infatuation/love with another guy at about 90%. VAR for a few weeks would in my opinion either rule that out or confirm it. Even if you pick up a conversation of her confiding in her friends, at least you will have a clue about what is going on.

Finding everything you say to be annoying and avoiding your affectionate touch - there is a current affair going on or very, very recently ended - like a week or two. NOT TWO YEARS.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

I don't know if anyone has posted here about the "cheater's script" or the "cheater's manual" yet, but if we didn't know better, we all would swear there must be one. Cheaters follow some very basic behavior patterns. When you've dealt with it like most of us have, and when you've spent some time on this forum seeing how similar everyone else's experiences have been, you have to conclude that a lot of cheater behavior comes down to human nature - how a person would act given the situations the cheaters find themselves in.

Your wife has followed the cheater's script to a T - the way her affair started, the way she lied about it, the way she handled the other woman, the way she trickle-truthed it to you, the way she took it underground, even the way the other man reacted - all TEXTBOOK. They must have a cheater's manual circulating among them out there, otherwise how could they all act the exact same (predictable) way?


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

25years said:


> she is clearly addicted to the phone, although, with the exception of one ugly incident during our vacation, I can't say that I feel like she's taking measures to hide it. I don't think there's a burner involved, as my discovery of that two years ago (roughly a month after initial discovery) is what confirmed failure to abide by "no contact".


So you have in your case both the number one sign of an affair - her distant behavior and general feeling that she is annoyed by you - and a good portion of the second sign - addiction to the phone. Although she doesn't hide it/guard it. There are so many apps that can be used to communicate that don't show up on call logs, and these apps can be deleted and re-installed very quickly and easily. Most social game apps like words with friends have these features. There are also a whole line of cheater apps. Try googling for apps to hide my affair or similar and see how many there are.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

25years said:


> I spent months after discovery playing detective (ironic, given that the POS OM actually IS a detective - and I BUSTED his feeble a$$ attempt to hide the burners). I found that it really wore me out, and ultimately decided that *if they were determined to continue contact, no efforts by a sane job-holding person could prevent it.* Maybe the VAR is the ticket here, although I'm a terrible liar with zero poker face skills.


Agreed, monitoring can be exhausting, and because of the numerous ways there are to hide communications, often fruitless despite your efforts. VAR is the ticket. No lying is involved, just plant the things in your house and car and check on them for a couple of weeks.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

25years said:


> One other thought re: IC - It occurred to me that *perhaps his probing at narcissism and related is actually a technique to diagnose her*, given what I remember about "projection" from Psych 101 - we tend to identify those flaws in others' personalities that actually exist in our own.


I don't think this is plausible. I've never heard about this method before, but I'm sure there are a lot of valid things I haven't heard of before. Still, I don't think it's anything other than a very remote possibility that this is the case.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

25years said:


> Our sex life: Nonexistent for couple months(?) by my wishes. Once resumed (following MC, seminar weekend, etc.), seemed quite normal, maybe higher frequency. After IC, began dwindling -- maybe twice/month at this point. Can't honestly say I've been the pursuer any more often than she has. Too much emotional baggage to have much desire.
> 
> Finally, primary pursuer in the affair? -- Tough question. About the best I can say is that it does seem abundantly clear to me that he identified and pushed all the right buttons to generate classic soap opera romance - his long held unrequited love, his silent suffering at the hands of a cold witch wife, his selfless sacrifice for the sake of his kids (left that out before - he maintained that he had long planned to leave his wife once his kids were out of school.


To cover all of your bases, have you considered trying to have more sex, more affectionate touch with your wife? These things are great for bonding. Plant the VARs, up the amount of sex to 2-3 times a week. Be affectionate with her every time you see her, every morning, every night. Let her know how much you desire her. Do it for three weeks. See what happens. It's a three-week plan, you've been in limbo for two years, what can it hurt to try?

After three weeks, if the VAR hasn't revealed a current affair or some other significant unknown truth, and if your wife continues to behave the same way, then let her know that you can't go on this way. Or just let her know that now.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

I'm with Will Kane. She's in an affair. I know it's exhausting to go all out on investigating but put the effort in for a few weeks. When you find evidence of the current affair don't even bother with confronting, just file and let everyone with an interest in your marriage know that you've caught her cheating again and are divorcing.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

Thanks once again. I do believe that the cumulative voice of experience here is helping me build valuable resolve to move this thing forward to a conclusion, one way or the other.

Re: VAR - any specific recommendations here? I'm reasonably tech savvy but have no knowledge or experience in that particular area.

Re: Will_Kane's suggestion to try upping the affection ante for a few weeks - I've made moves in that direction, but backed off when it didn't appear to yield results. Maybe I should be more diligent and stick with it for a few weeks until it either yields positive results or clearly negative ones (e.g. overt messages to "back off").

Re: Beginning the process of filing for divorce - any cumulative words of wisdom for selecting and approaching an attorney?

Thanks again for effort, advice, and moral support!


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

You will not grow old alone. You will grow old with you. Your pretty smart, well read, your photo will never be in "People of Walmart". You do not want to stay with a toxic ex wife! That would suck. JM2C David


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

So, your wife's therapist condones and facilitates cheating?

Then they should be exposed on CheaterVille :: Don't Be the Last to Know.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Regarding the VAR and it's use I hope weightlifter come to help you, he's great. I he doesn't PM him, he posted already in your thread, click the username.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

weightlifter said:


> OH FVCK! Just to be clear.
> 
> True or false. Your wife has within the past say 6 months started texting some guy?
> ***If TRUE***
> ...


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

Thanks for digging that up. Gonna VAR ASAP. Gonna schedule an initial consultation with an attorney next week. Would still appreciate any sage advice for that topic (e.g. how to find a good one and/or measure performance).


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

25years said:


> Good question, and I'm not sure which answer(s) apply:
> (1) I'm still hopeful that we can recover and don't want to damage "our" relationships with friends and family.
> (2) The situation embarrasses me as a personal failure, rightly or wrongly.
> (3) I avoid unpleasant confrontation - it would be obvious to her that I've told, and that might be the "straw that breaks the camel's back" in our relationship.


25 my man, if you can't get a handle on number 3, forget about number 1. I hate to break it to you Dawg, but you being scared ****less of your old lady is probably what cause her to go chasing another man in the first place. Its like a gal told me once, "if I get caught, he ain't gonna do nothing noway". 
If you perused these sites like you say you have, one thing just had to jump out at you. Women lose interest, lose respect and are bored to tears by a man they can walk all over. It ain't sexy to them Dawg. Hell, it ain't real appealing to anybody, accept maybe to you.
In a later post, you ask about what to look for in an attorney. I practiced tax law; not family but look at it like this. Pretend you're hiring a body guard with a JD. You want your azz covered.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

25years said:


> Thanks for digging that up. Gonna VAR ASAP. Gonna schedule an initial consultation with an attorney next week. Would still appreciate any sage advice for that topic (e.g. how to find a good one and/or measure performance).


Word of mouth is the best way. If you know anyone else who went through a divorce, you can ask them. If you have used an attorney for another matter, or you know any attorneys personally, you can ask them, even if that's not their area. Tell them what you want, also, though - if you're looking for an aggressive shark, if you're looking to save money, etc. In general, people I know have told me you get what you pay for, and generally have been much happier when they spent the extra money for a shark.

If you don't want to tell them you are having problems, then you can say it's for your sister, brother, friend, co-worker, etc.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

You have been given sound advice.

I find it hard to believe that any, even border line competent, therapist would have "treated" your wife the way you describe. 

It could be that your wife is still actively engaged with her boyfriend and is just better at hiding it. Hence the blame shifting.

Still the therapist is obviously not working, fire that counselor.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Definitely buy the var!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

25years said:


> Re: Will_Kane's suggestion to try upping the affection ante for a few weeks - I've made moves in that direction, but backed off when it didn't appear to yield results.


fyi, there's a difference between an alpha male piling attention on his wife in a strong way, and a beta male lamely pawing at his wife. Hope you are doing it right.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

25years said:


> Thanks for digging that up. Gonna VAR ASAP. Gonna schedule an initial consultation with an attorney next week. Would still appreciate any sage advice for that topic (e.g. how to find a good one and/or measure performance).


If she's a spiteful person, visit as many good lawyers as will see you for consultations since once you do, they won't be legally allowed to see HER. So you'll take all the good ones out of her grasp. At least so I've heard.

And get the meanest, strongest one you meet.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Did I read it right, that you did not expose the affair?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Make a note when you talk to a lawyer and ask him what he thinks about her counselor telling her you are narcissistic. If he did I would have the attorney send him a strongly worded letter. 

Realistically though, I think your wife, possibly with someone else's help, made that up.

Have you been in contact with the other mans wife to see if he is acting strange?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Test drive the VAR make sure we're ever you plant it that it does the job so try it out first and make sure you have great batteries.

Sorry your old lady found a shrink that never addressed her choice to betray and deceive instead the shrink blame shifted and never got to the bottom of you old ladies decision processing and lack of boundaries problem.


When you old lady cycle through the same unhealthy behaviors with new husband will it be his fault also..... then husband #3,husband #4,and husband#5 fault .... What a disservice this shrink is do to your old lady!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

25years said:


> Thanks for biblically-based perspective. Obviously, I struggle while weighing truth against grace and forgiveness. It seems clear to me that the bible does not advise complicit secrecy, but I do worry about the possibility of unnecessary emotional damage to our children that might result from my exposure of the affair at this point. Obviously, it's ultimately her fault, but I don't want to unwittingly or otherwise turn my relationships with my children into a self-serving emotional crutch.


25 The truth is meaningless without seeing the light of day or no consequences

55


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Being Christian myself - all this talk about staying married - the Bible explicitly states the only justification for divorce is adultery. The man himself, Jesus, mentions that adultery is grounds for divorce. So it is not inconsistent with biblical teaching. Divorce is proper when infidelity is involved. Not advising someone to do it but it is consistent with biblical teachings.


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## Rottdad42 (Nov 26, 2012)

I'm ashamed of my profession at this point. That jacka** needs a swift kick of reality. In my department this person would be subjected to severe scrutiny, for his actions. This is based on judgement skills or lack thereof. We are held to a higher standard, carry guns and remove there rights (arrest) for the criminal wrong doing. I view infidelity as criminal (pov). If you have kids and divorce, the kids suffer greatly, again criminal. Christian or not to what point do say I'm done with this crap. 25 years and you do this. Goodbye, of course after that amount of time and coupled with your age, it's just not that simple. Good luck to you, this will not be easy.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

turnera said:


> Did I read it right, that you did not expose the affair?


Yes. I now believe it was a mistake, and I plan to at least confide in some close friends/family. I still struggle with the value of wider revelation, given that the affair has been "over" for close to 1.5 years (at least by any concrete/objective evidence). Not sure what I'd gain, at least relative to the pain and suffering it would inflict upon our kids and many other innocent people that we love.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

Rottdad42 said:


> I'm ashamed of my profession at this point. That jacka** needs a swift kick of reality. In my department this person would be subjected to severe scrutiny, for his actions. This is based on judgement skills or lack thereof. We are held to a higher standard, carry guns and remove there rights (arrest) for the criminal wrong doing. I view infidelity as criminal (pov). If you have kids and divorce, the kids suffer greatly, again criminal. Christian or not to what point do say I'm done with this crap. 25 years and you do this. Goodbye, of course after that amount of time and coupled with your age, it's just not that simple. Good luck to you, this will not be easy.


Thank you for stating so many of my thoughts so clearly. It's obvious that you "get it" re: my reluctance to throw away what has overall been a good 25 year relationship.

I'm pretty sure that in another time and place, the evidence I have on this guy (some of it involving use of police department email while on the job) would be more than enough to cause him to be dismissed from the department via some sort of "moral turpitude" clause. Definitely displays a lack of judgment and intelligence (I busted at least one of his lame a$$ attempts to hide the affair) that clearly is insufficient for the position.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

bigtone128 said:


> Being Christian myself - all this talk about staying married - the Bible explicitly states the only justification for divorce is adultery. The man himself, Jesus, mentions that adultery is grounds for divorce. So it is not inconsistent with biblical teaching. Divorce is proper when infidelity is involved. Not advising someone to do it but it is consistent with biblical teachings.


Agreed. The bible couldn't be more clear on this point, and I've never even heard anyone argue otherwise (including some very conservative Christian organizations tirelessly devoted to saving marriages). 

But as I've mentioned elsewhere, there's enough at stake here to warrant significant effort to save the marriage. I know some here disagree, and I respect their opinions and am listening. I'm sure there's wisdom in the experiences of those who've tried my path and lived to regret the lost time and effort.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, what's done is done. Exposure would certainly have put the marriage back on the right track more easily and more quickly, as it would have shown to her that you WILL walk away for such nonsense. All you can do now is show that, now, you want the marriage, but you have certain requirements from your spouse, like respect and humility and hard work.

I do suggest, however, that you state that you need her to tell her parents, with you present. That you need it for healing, and you need it for her in terms of HER learning and growing. If she refuses, it will tell you a lot.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

25years said:


> *But as I've mentioned elsewhere, there's enough at stake here to warrant significant effort to save the marriage.* I


But the main point to understand here 25, is that the major effort has to come *FROM HER* !!!!

She is the cheat. Not You !! She must do the heavy lifting !


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

barbados said:


> But the main point to understand here 25, is that the major effort has to come *FROM HER* !!!!
> 
> She is the cheat. Not You !! She must do the heavy lifting !


That point is certainly high on the list of things I've learned by posting here. 

Another one is the therapist's role in this mess. Just found out today that HE DIVORCED HIS WIFE last summer (found it in court records). Not that I needed any additional reasons to question the value of his "counseling", but what sense does it make for a woman who seeks therapy for affair recovery to be counseled by a divorced, male, similarly-aged therapist.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Make a note when you talk to a lawyer and ask him what he thinks about her counselor telling her you are narcissistic. If he did I would have the attorney send him a strongly worded letter.
> 
> Realistically though, I think your wife, possibly with someone else's help, made that up.
> 
> Have you been in contact with the other mans wife to see if he is acting strange?


No, I've never contacted OM's wife, although I've considered it several times. I suspect that what he's told her pales in comparison to what I know and have (emails, hotel receipts, etc.). I can't say that I haven't thought about using this to blow his world up, but then again, he has kids too...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

25years said:


> what sense does it make for a woman who seeks therapy for affair recovery to be counseled by a divorced, male, similarly-aged*, horny* therapist.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

25years said:


> That point is certainly high on the list of things I've learned by posting here.
> 
> Another one is the therapist's role in this mess. Just found out today that HE DIVORCED HIS WIFE last summer (found it in court records). Not that I needed any additional reasons to question the value of his "counseling", but what sense does it make for a woman who seeks therapy for affair recovery to be counseled by a divorced, male, similarly-aged therapist.


OK, it's the therapist. Use the VAR. Doubtful they limit it to therapy sessions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Get pen var from brickston.com. It isn't exactly legal but it will give you answers.

Please, get the two books linked to below, they can be downloaded too. Also from amazon.com.

You can't believe anything a cheater says only their actions and your wife is being shady.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Again.
Keep the focus off this IC. He could be against the divorce or be forced to divorce becasue his waife was a serial cheater or a murderer, who cares? The therapist is not the issue.

The one who is accountable to you is your unrepetant cheater wife!


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

Acabado said:


> Again.
> Keep the focus off this IC. He could be against the divorce or be forced to divorce becasue his waife was a serial cheater or a murderer, who cares? The therapist is not the issue.
> 
> The one who is accountable to you is your unrepetant cheater wife!


Good point, and I agree. But if there's anything going on with the IC I'm done - unequivocally. So could save me additional grief if the VAR answers that question.


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## 25years (Feb 13, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Get pen var from brickston.com. It isn't exactly legal but it will give you answers.
> 
> Please, get the two books linked to below, they can be downloaded too. Also from amazon.com.
> 
> You can't believe anything a cheater says only their actions and your wife is being shady.


Found "Not Just Friends" listed available at m local library. Gonna pick it up at lunch. Thanks


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

NOT Just Friends by Shirley Glass is excellent and it really explains many facets of infidelity in depth. She includes a lot of research on infidelity in the book so her recommendations are based on not just years of practicing therapy with couples who have dealt with this problem but empirical findings on the subject.

Also, the book I recommended in an earlier post is available to read free online here:

http://www.lindajmacdonald.com/HOW_TO_HELP_11-06-10_FINAL_pdf-.pdf

It's How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda J MacDonald. I preferred to purchase a hard copy and highlight parts that I especially wanted my husband to read, then I gave it to him. It's much shorter than Shirley Glass' book; an easy read, more of a "how to" manual for the wayward spouse who usually doesn't "get" how badly they've hurt us, nor do they know what specific things they should do to help us heal from their betrayal.

Again - I'll reiterate: every additional session she has with that counselor is POISON for your marriage. I think you need to set some conditions for reconciling with her, and stopping counseling with him immediately should be one of them.


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