# I'll say it again. The affair is the fault of the one having the affair



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

There might be reasons for an affair, but there can be no excuses for an affair.

If husband or wife does x, y or z, well, that might need to be addressed with counselling, several choice swearwords or a threat of divorce, but not a sneaky, behind the back affair.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Completely Agree.

Too bad that this could actually be a thing.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> There might be reasons for an affair, but there can be no excuses for an affair.
> 
> If husband or wife does x, y or z, well, that might need to be addressed with counselling, several choice swearwords or a threat of divorce, but not a sneaky, behind the back affair.


Can't argue with you. Why do you suppose that many more folks take the affair route rather than the divorce route?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> Can't argue with you. Why do you suppose that many more folks take the affair route rather than the divorce route?


Oh, lots of reasons.

Including wanting to stay with them, but wanting to hurt them as badly as they hurt you? (Revenge affair, I am guilty as charged, sad to say.)

Alcohol plays a part, too. Had I not spent a couple of years drunk much of the time, maybe I'd have been able to insist on counselling. My wife didn't want to air our dirty linen in public, or all her colleagues in the local counselling industry would have known about her affair.

But after I had my revenge affair, I realised that I was wrong. My wife asked me if I cheated because of her affair? My answer was: "No. I take full responsibility for cheating on you."


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> Can't argue with you. Why do you suppose that many more folks take the affair route rather than the divorce route?


Because it is easier than to do the work on starting divorce proceedings; spend money on setting up a new household; and because they are afraid that once they are single, they won't find anyone to have a committed relationship with. Or just two words *LAZY AND COWARDLY*.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Lazy, cowardly or broken by circumstances or even broken by their own spouse?

That doesn't condone cheating, however.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

Because affairs make us happy, they are new, thrilling, you feel like the "new you", your passion returns, your sexual desires fulfilled . . .

Going through divorce is the opposite of all of that.


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## dtc37 (Nov 18, 2014)

It's just human DNA I believe


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Lazy, cowardly or broken by circumstances or even broken by their own spouse?
> 
> That doesn't condone cheating, however.


In my circumstances, I feel that he just wanted his cake and eat it too. He knew how much I valued my family and how much I never wanted a broken one. I feel he just thinks that he could keep doing it because he knew I would take him back... 

So sad. You can 'get back' at a person via an affair but the truth is, you are destroying an entire family. In my case this includes a 6 and 2 year old.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> There might be reasons for an affair, but there can be no excuses for an affair.
> 
> If husband or wife does x, y or z, well, that might need to be addressed with counselling, several choice swearwords or a threat of divorce, but not a sneaky, behind the back affair.


 :iagree:


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

I agree Matt.

To me, cheating is a deal breaker and if I was going to move on through life, I'd rather it be with someone new rather than someone who I will have trust issues with for the remainder. There are few exceptions

The affair is always on the cheater and is their fault/responsibility. To be, this is beyond dispute


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> There might be reasons for an affair, but there can be no excuses for an affair.
> 
> If husband or wife does x, y or z, well, that might need to be addressed with counselling, several choice swearwords or a threat of divorce, but not a sneaky, behind the back affair.


It took me a long time to understand this and accept it..


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## nikoled (Mar 12, 2014)

Absolutely. I will take full responsibility for the state of our marriage at the time of the affair, but the choice for my husband to have an affair was all on him. He was broken and had very poor coping skills. It took him blowing up our world for him to realize this. But now he does and is working very hard to work on himself. He takes full responsibility for his poor choices. That's all him.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

My STBX has been having an affair since last July. I found out about it in February. He asked for a divorce in October, characterizing it as just wanting to be on his own so he would be "free to pursue other relationships." He at first tried to justify what he'd done by blaming me for our bad marriage - that he felt vulnerable and lonely because things weren't good between us. He still falls back to doing that from time to time, saying things like "You KNOW things with us weren't right and haven't been for a long time, don't you?"

I've taken the advice of "The 180" - don't believe a word they say in their own defense - they will say anything to justify their actions. So, I don't. We're in the process of divorcing; I'm no longer trying to fight it - he wants to be with the OW.

But I secretly think his new relationship is doomed. How do I know? My Dad left my Mom for another woman, only my Mom didn't know about her at the time (she found out a month after he moved out). This woman is not the one he ended up with. He met her, my stepmother of 42 years - five years later. That first new relationship failed because he started off with someone who knew firsthand that he was capable of cheating and lying. No basis of trust whatsoever. The OW in my life has already shown signs of insecurity, and they aren't even openly together yet. I found out because she texted him, and then called our house, at 11:00 on a Friday night, because she was unhappy that he was moving so slowly in telling/divorcing me.

Men don't leave just to be alone. There is always another woman. (Or another man on their wife's part and they can't take it anymore.) And back to the original point - no, it is never justifiable to blame the other party.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

I have touched gently on TAM about me not being perfect and owning my faults and mistakes in my marriage. I was so bad as a husband my WW thought our marriage was over. My actions in our marriage were repulsive to me. I was a closed book not sharing many of my feelings or emotions. On many occasions I probably treated her more like a roommate then the person I loved more than anyone. This had to be very painful for her to go through. 

My WW stayed true to my side until even I had considered divorce. We loved each other deeply, did many things together, and now I realize I was pushing her away. That is both of our faults, we grew distant emotionally, we needed far better ways to communicate. It's easy to see all of this now, but in the moment we were too comfortable. We didn't recognize how we drifted apart nor did we share enough communication. 

My WW was very wrong to have an affair, she admits that freely, she has from day one. My WW never tried to blame her affair on me, the worst she said was that I should have fought for her. Perhaps she should have enlightened me that I was in a war for her and I would have fought. No such luck though. My WW did try to trickle truth, but I had found TAM by then. Trickle truth lasted maybe thirty minutes. I recognized it and shut that talk down, told her we will talk tomorrow, and this would be her final chance. 

Her decision to have an affair is on her solely. I may have been an a$$hole but I didn't deserve what she did. She didn't consult me about her affair, she did what WANTED to do. I say this because she had the affair, knew it was wrong, and ended her affair. She also kept it a secret for the next two and a half years. Honestly that hurts very much, but not as much as knowing she is capable. 

I have good days and bad days, I have moments of peace or happiness. I have focused on me, my shortcomings, and making me a better person. My WW is doing the same. I doubt she will ever cheat again, I know how hurt she is over her actions. In a way she has given me a second chance to be a better husband, and person. She in turn has earned her second chance with reconciliation. We have established boundaries, set time aside for communication, set time aside for just us. This was difficult as we are busy like everyone else is in life. But we both now value our marriage and have our goals set on succeeding in reconciliation. We struggle, we fight for the marriage, we love each other more and we are united. 

It's very hard work, and sometimes we question if we have the strength to continue, then we carry each other until a new day comes. It can be done as others here have before me, and we will fight for this marriage until neither of us has anything left.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> There might be reasons for an affair, but there can be no excuses for an affair.
> 
> If husband or wife does x, y or z, well, that might need to be addressed with counselling, several choice swearwords or a threat of divorce, but not a sneaky, behind the back affair.


Of course it is... I am not sure there are not really any reasons either. I always think that people have other options before they cheat.. Like divorce?.

You will also get the cheater throwing his/her reasons around for why they're having an affair, of course they are just trying to excuse their behaviour...

Your right it is sneaky and dirty. Should we not have a choice if we want to sleep with someone that is putting their bits elsewhere? I think so.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> There might be reasons for an affair, but there can be no excuses for an affair.
> 
> If husband or wife does x, y or z, well, that might need to be addressed with counselling, several choice swearwords or a threat of divorce, but not a sneaky, behind the back affair.


I've thought about this alot and many of the things you suggests don't work 

1) I can tell you from personnal experience that counseling doesn't work. It's only a good way to throw money down the toilet.

2) Swearing, really?? Where does that get you?

3) Threaten divorce - When she stands to get 70% of your future salary plus the house??...meanwhile you live in the slums. Thank's but no thanks.

4) Affair - that's no good either but an affair's root cause is normally a spouse not doing what they should. It's also a bad way to address the problem.


ok those all don't work. Why not try communicating with your spouse and try to work things out. Go away for a weekend....or hey even the entire week. 

If that doesn't work you're in the same boat I am planning the best possible exit strategy.


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## Devastated an lost (Oct 29, 2014)

I've always said me & my H had a marriage as close to perfect as one could be, But in looking back, I now see there's more than one way to do things wrong. Mine was in being to eager to please. I waited on him hand & foot, I even did all the yard work Including the weed-eating so we would have more time together on the weekends. I let him make all the decisions in both our life's without questions & was at his beck & call 24/7 Don't get me wrong. He was good to me, But I never challenged him about anything so I guess he thought he could just go out & have a fling & I wouldn't challenge him on that either. I don't blame myself for his A that was all his fault, But if I had worried less about making him happy & stood my ground a few times. He may have thought twice about cheating on me.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> 4) Affair - that's no good either but an affair's root cause is normally a spouse not doing what they should.


No. The root cause is selfishness on the part of the person having the affair.

My STBX met the OW in July. He commenced the actual physical part of the affair (actually having sex) with her in September, when he traveled to another state to meet her and stay with her, while telling me and our son he was visiting friends of all of ours in that same state. They're dead to me now, btw - they aided and abetted him - even went out to dinner with him and her as if the two of them were already an established couple and I no longer existed. All this a full month before he even suggested we should separate, and not for the real reason when that time came.

Were there things in the marriage I wasn't doing that I should have been, or that I was doing and should not have been? I'm sure there were. Just as there were things he could have been doing or not doing to make the marriage better, too.

I can understand his wanting to pursue a new relationship with this person he met in July who gushed all over him and treated him like a rock star. And I could have understood, though it would have been painful, if he'd said to me back then, "I've met someone and I have feelings for her. I would like to move out, and I think we should get a divorce, because I don't love you anymore and I want to be with her." But he didn't do that. He deliberately went behind my back and lied to me about it repeatedly from September until February, when I only found out because she made that happen against his wishes.

There is no reason or excuse for that in this world except his selfishness. I will take responsibility for not communicating with him better, and for not fighting for the marriage more when it was still mine to fight for. But I will not take responsibility for that.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Nomorebeans said:


> No. The root cause is selfishness on the part of the person having the affair.
> 
> I can understand his wanting to pursue a new relationship with this person he met in July who gushed all over him and treated him like a rock star.


There's the root cause, not selfishness


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> There's the root cause, not selfishness


That I didn't treat him like a rock star? It's kind of hard to do that, when that rock star criticizes you and makes you feel small daily under the guise of "just trying to help you be a better person." When everything - *everything* your family does is on his timetable and not anyone else's. When he couldn't be bothered to accompany you to your stepmother of 42 years' funeral, but flew to another state to go to the funeral of the father of a friend he hadn't seen in 15 years a few months later (at which he met the OW, ironically enough). About whom you've made excuses to your family for years as to why he's not at any of their gatherings - your family who was relatively normal and perfectly welcoming of him, but about whom he couldn't care less.

Please be careful about blaming the betrayed, when you don't begin to know the full story.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Nomorebeans said:


> That I didn't treat him like a rock star? It's kind of hard to do that, when that rock star criticizes you and makes you feel small daily under the guise of "just trying to help you be a better person." When everything - *everything* your family does is on his timetable and not anyone else's. When he couldn't be bothered to accompany you to your stepmother of 42 years' funeral, but flew to another state to go to the funeral of the father of a friend he hadn't seen in 15 years a few months later (at which he met the OW, ironically enough). About whom you've made excuses to your family for years as to why he's not at any of their gatherings - your family who was relatively normal and perfectly welcoming of him, but about whom he couldn't care less.
> 
> Please be careful about blaming the betrayed, when you don't begin to know the full story.


ok the root cause from his prospective then. I'm not saying that you didn't treat him as he deserved to be treated, I was only talking about root cause. Both of you will have different view points on was the root cause was.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

jb02157 said:


> ok the root cause from his prospective then. I'm not saying that you didn't treat him as he deserved to be treated, I was only talking about root cause. Both of you will have different view points on was the root cause was.


I can agree with you that we both have different viewpoints. 

His viewpoint is one in which he protects himself from having to face the fact that he's not the hero he likes to think he is. Mine is one in which I have faced the fact that I contributed to screwing up this marriage, but that no one in it deserves to be cheated on and lied to. Not even him, not even now.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

sidney2718 said:


> Can't argue with you. Why do you suppose that many more folks take the affair route rather than the divorce route?


Because loyalty and/or fidelity is not very important for them.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

PreRaphaelite said:


> Because affairs make us happy, they are new, thrilling, you feel like the "new you", your passion returns, your sexual desires fulfilled . . .
> 
> Going through divorce is the opposite of all of that.


But affairs don't really make people happy. They get pleasure out of them and its a short term "thrill". Happiness comes from within. This is often the hard lesson affair partners learn far too late, the pleasure never turned into real happiness.


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## musk-rat (Mar 10, 2015)

honcho said:


> But affairs don't really make people happy. They get pleasure out of them and its a short term "thrill". Happiness comes from within. This is often the hard lesson affair partners learn far too late, the pleasure never turned into real happiness.


I second that. My STBXW claimed she was no happier in her affair than she was in our marriage:scratchhead: Like others, it took me a few months to realize her actions were her's alone and nothing I did would have stopped the affair. It was her choice to risk everthing we had, not mine.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

musk-rat said:


> I second that. My STBXW claimed she was no happier in her affair than she was in our marriage:scratchhead: Like others, it took me a few months to realize her actions were her's alone and nothing I did would have stopped the affair. It was her choice to risk everthing we had, not mine.


Yes. My STBX is already saying there are "warning signs" in his new relationship and that it "might not work out."

When I first found out, after getting past the shock enough to really talk with him about it, he said he didn't tell me because he was "just trying to save my feelings." It took him some time to realize that if he had truly cared about saving my feelings, he wouldn't have gone back up there specifically to have sex with her before he had even told me he was thinking about leaving. I realize now that he must have wanted to see if sex with her would be worth breaking up our marriage over. (Apparently, he thought it was.) The selfishness of that, and the blatant insensitivity to my feelings as well as hers, as much as I hate to empathize with her, are mind-boggling.


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## always_hopefull (Aug 11, 2011)

jb02157 said:


> 4) Affair - that's no good either but an affair's root cause is normally a spouse not doing what they should. It's also a bad way to address the problem.


I couldn't agree more with you! The affairs is 100% on the person not doing what they should, for example they are no longer keeping their vows. Blaming anyone other than themselves is only a way to shift the blame off themselves, just another way the cheater shows how selfish they truly are. After all, if they truly believed they were so "entitled", they would be prancing around with pride, not being sneaky, deceptive and being mentally abusive when they gaslight their spouse!!

In my humble opinion, anyone who blames a spouse is often a cheater themselves and is seeking validation.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

The root cause of an affair is the other spouse not doing what they should? What a cop-out.

"The other spouse not doing what they should" is the root cause of one's unhappiness (and I don't agree with the wording you used, but won't quibble here). An affair is a choice about HOW to respond to that unhappiness. As someone pointed out, there are other choices! 

I think affairs are the "go to" choice b/c so many people simply want to eat their cake and have it, too. Affairs are the easy choice, the short-term, quick gratification, put-off-the-possibility-of-pain-and-unpleasantness choice. People don't go to counseling b/c they are convinced it is too late and will require too much hard work, all for nothing (b/c it is too late). If people went for counseling b/f problems became big, marriages would not break up nearly as much. But in our society, counseling is a last-ditch effort. Too little, too late, often. 

I am not in any way condoning or excusing the choice to have an affair. Just explaining. It's an act of cowardice and selfishness.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

sidney2718 said:


> Can't argue with you. Why do you suppose that many more folks take the affair route rather than the divorce route?


Because they are fvcking coward pieces of sh!t.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

altawa said:


> Because they are fvcking coward pieces of sh!t.


Sorry! I can't let you get away with that. 

Some might be, but many aren't.

There are many reasons why people might have an affair. That they shouldn't is a given, but not everyone who has an affair is not you describe them.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Sorry! I an't let you get away with that.
> 
> Some might be, but many aren't.
> 
> There are many reasons why people might have an affair. That they shouldn't is a given, but not everyone who has an affair is not you describe them.


Yeah....they are.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

altawa said:


> Yeah....they are.


Was the person who cheated on you how you describe all cheaters?

If so, I can see where you are coming from.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Was the person who cheated on you how you describe all cheaters?
> 
> If so, I can see where you are coming from.


Lets see, the ones before my wife, yeah.

My wife, when she did what she did, yeah.

As to where things stand with that......undecided.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

altawa said:


> Lets see, the ones before my wife, yeah.
> 
> My wife, when she did what she did, yeah.
> 
> As to where things stand with that......undecided.


Oh. Yep. That sort of makes your mind up, doesn't it?

You been cheated on multiple times?

Me too. 

I know where you are coming from.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

If you find yourself choosing partners that eventually cheat you do at some point have to ask yourself why you keep choosing that type person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

honcho said:


> If you find yourself choosing partners that eventually cheat you do at some point have to ask yourself why you keep choosing that type person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay, tell us how to choose a partner that has absolutely no chance of cheating on us. Hey, I'm all ears!


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

honcho said:


> If you find yourself choosing partners that eventually cheat you do at some point have to ask yourself why you keep choosing that type person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, you're right. It must be my fault. I made the girl I dated in high school cheat on me. I made the girl I dated after high school fvck some other guy one night (for seemingly no reason, at least none that I ever got), and I made my wife decide to set up a sex date with her ex while I was in boot camp under the guise of picking up a letter (to which her response has been that we were newlyweds and she was afraid she was going to screw our marriage up/screw me over, so she was looking for a way out).


Yep, my fault.

Thanks. I am not dealing with enough sh!t lately, I needed that bit of clarity. Appreciate it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

altawa said:


> Yeah, you're right. It must be my fault. I made the girl I dated in high school cheat on me. I made the girl I dated after high school fvck some other guy one night (for seemingly no reason, at least none that I ever got), and I made my wife decide to set up a sex date with her ex while I was in boot camp under the guise of picking up a letter (to which her response has been that we were newlyweds and she was afraid she was going to screw our marriage up/screw me over, so she was looking for a way out).
> 
> 
> Yep, my fault.
> ...


My first girl friend dumped me for a millionaire property developer. Only he turned out to not be a millionaire property developer but an unemployable convicted fraudster who lived in his mum's spare bedroom in a condemned terraced house in Chapletown, the red light district of Leeds, in Yorkshire.

My first LTR girl friend dumped me for a woman.

And my wife announced she was going to have an affair, but would come back to me. Which she did, of course.

They are all so vastly different that there was no cheating "type" that I was attracted to.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

I do think altawa is right about cheaters being cowards. There is a good deal of cowardice involved, I would say in pretty much every case.

It takes some bravery to say to your spouse, "I don't want to be married to you anymore, to the point that I am considering being with other women, maybe even one in particular, so I think we should separate and then probably divorce."

It takes some serious cowardice to say to your spouse, "I think we should separate, because we're both unhappy and we should both be free to pursue a relationship with someone else" when you actually have already been fvcking another woman repeatedly, and have been lying to your spouse about what you were really doing all of those times. And then, it takes cowardice again, when you get caught, to say to your spouse, "I didn't tell you because I was trying to save your feelings." No, I'm pretty sure you were trying to cover your own ass and protect yourself from having to admit what a piece of sh!t you are, because if you really wanted to save my feelings, you would have gone with the brave approach, above, in the first place.

When I asked him when he was planning to tell me if he hadn't gotten caught because she made that happen, he admitted he wouldn't have until after he moved out, and he probably would have gone up to see her in another state again in the meantime, told me he was doing something else, and then would have claimed he met her for the first time only then.

That's some serious fvcking cowardice.

(*The important thing is I'm not bitter.*)


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

altawa said:


> Yeah, you're right. It must be my fault. I made the girl I dated in high school cheat on me. I made the girl I dated after high school fvck some other guy one night (for seemingly no reason, at least none that I ever got), and I made my wife decide to set up a sex date with her ex while I was in boot camp under the guise of picking up a letter (to which her response has been that we were newlyweds and she was afraid she was going to screw our marriage up/screw me over, so she was looking for a way out).
> 
> 
> Yep, my fault.
> ...


I never said it was your fault. It wasn't my fault my stbx cheated. Obviously you can't predict the future. Some guys pick the exact same type women over and over. 

A buddy of mine has been divorced 3 times now. Married one twice and each and every time they were cheaters. His new "love" of his life is the exact same. She is already been caught cheating. He falls for the exact same type, at some point you got to look at what your picking. 

The couple of people I have dated after my mess started have ended up being similar to my stbx. I seem to attract "crazy" haha. I don't want a repeat performance of my freakshow. So I do have to question within myself why I attract that and things like that. 

This has nothing to do with you or me being at fault.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

We appreciate all the Betrayed Spouses and Wayward Spouses who do work hard at maintaining an ongoing dialog about a very sensitive subject matter like infidelity. I hope this thread doesn't dissolve into yet another thread where people use inflammatory language to use all WS as a punching bag.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Regarding the last several posts listed above, it's about many factors. Honesty, dishonesty, weakness, strength, and so on. One can say the WS was weak and dishonest. One can say the BS was strong and honest. Yet I've never seen perfection, I've never seen a perfect marriage. I've seen threads where they say the marriage is perfect and then three pages later you see all the mistakes. BS and WS can both be broken or have issues that need to be corrected. But are they strong enough to admit this and then correct them? For me I was broken before the affair but didn't recognize it. I was definitely broken after the affair. 

My WW owns her affair completely and admits she is broken. I admit I contributed to the failures in the marriage, but this doesn't condone cheating. Self reflection was difficult, I wanted to say my WW broke the marriage solely, however that would be a lie. Things were broken in my marriage and as a result my WW cheated, this simply means she owns the affair and I self reflect to my faults. It's being honest with you, yourself, as nobody is perfect. So your relationship isn't perfect nor are we but cheating is a choice and the betrayed spouse can't be held accountable for the WS choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

I agree, drifting on. I haven't been a perfect wife, and I accept full responsibility for contributing to the failure of our marriage. I actually apologized to my STBX shortly after I learned of the affair for making him feel so bad for so long (he never told me how he felt until after the affair came to light). He didn't apologize for cheating until some time after that because he didn't believe the cheating was his fault at first.

Sorry, everyone, for my bitter post above. I'm still really hurting knowing that he is leaving me for this woman who he has known for less than a year and has only seen a few times during that time. I know there are things we should have talked about long ago, and we both should have tried harder to make our marriage better when we still had the chance, but we both gave up on each other. I'm at least equally to blame for that as he is, if not moreso. He just happened to find someone else he would rather be with before I did. I need to let that go and move on, but it's really been a struggle.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> Oh. Yep. That sort of makes your mind up, doesn't it?
> 
> You been cheated on multiple times?
> 
> ...


 Matt, may you allow me to point out that you do in fact do not know where he is coming from. Like all creatures on earth we do not all react the same way to any and all situations. Now I am compelled to agree with altawa, infidelity is a cowardice act at any level. As me and you have pointed out many times you were indeed spared the chasing of your own tail regarding your wife's misadventure, regardless of whether you were heavy into drinking or not is irrelevant, it happened and you felt the in your face feeling so many of us would beg to have had at one point.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Nomorebeans said:


> I agree, drifting on. I haven't been a perfect wife, and I accept full responsibility for contributing to the failure of our marriage. I actually apologized to my STBX shortly after I learned of the affair for making him feel so bad for so long (he never told me how he felt until after the affair came to light). He didn't apologize for cheating until some time after that because he didn't believe the cheating was his fault at first.
> 
> Sorry, everyone, for my bitter post above. I'm still really hurting knowing that he is leaving me for this woman who he has known for less than a year and has only seen a few times during that time. I know there are things we should have talked about long ago, and we both should have tried harder to make our marriage better when we still had the chance, but we both gave up on each other. I'm at least equally to blame for that as he is, if not moreso. He just happened to find someone else he would rather be with before I did. I need to let that go and move on, but it's really been a struggle.



Nomorebeans

I too have posted when bitter, angry, or in a rage. It is difficult to contain that anger as you read these threads, it fuels your anger. I have done as you have and come back to apologize for a post if I think the base of it is in a derogatory manner. So I say kudos to you for recognizing your post as bitter. I write on here as I find it cathartic to release my pain and anger. All I can say is, there is nothing easy about infidelity, it's pain and destruction. Best of luck to you, and I hope you find peace and happiness.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Coffee Amore said:


> We appreciate all the Betrayed Spouses and Wayward Spouses who do work hard at maintaining an ongoing dialog about a very sensitive subject matter like infidelity....


I think betrayed spouses can appreciate a former wayward when/if the FW come to accept that loyalty and fidelity towards their partner is genuinely more important to themselves then they at one point realized.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Topping for further help of the BS of TAM.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

sidney2718 said:


> Can't argue with you. Why do you suppose that many more folks take the affair route rather than the divorce route?


That's the million dollar question. Back when I was poor I worked harder and did without what I couldn't afford. Some poor people turn to crime and steal from others to get what they want. Why do some just try harder and do without while others turn to crime? Probably a lot of reasons but I know that the courts won't accept an excuse of "well, I'm poor, therefore I had to steal." Nope, the crook goes to jail. Adulterers, too, have no leg to stand on. Nobody made them cheat.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> There might be reasons for an affair, but there can be no excuses for an affair.
> 
> If husband or wife does x, y or z, well, that might need to be addressed with counselling, several choice swearwords or a threat of divorce, but not a sneaky, behind the back affair.


I recommend you dive headlong into Gottman's Seven Principles for Successful Marriage, and Sue Johnson's work on emotion-based therapy.

What you'll find is that "fault" is kind of a no-no. There is almost no human problem where it is possible to 100% pin "fault" or "blame" on any individual. The effort expended to prove one person's at fault- or worry about it - could have been spent resolving the issues...and there's always more than one issue.

My sig line is useful here:
There are only three kinds of business: your business, my business and god's business.

What this means is about control - what can you control? Your thoughts, your feelings, and pretty much what you do in the next ten seconds and that is it. Therefore, if you tie your happiness/love/affection/satisfation, to deeds done by anybody else, or nature, then you have shrunk yourself, reduced your possibilities for happiness and generally moved yourself negatively along the fuel gauge labelled "happy" on one end and "miserable" on the other. I have observed that those who obsess over who's at fault, are WAY over toward the "miserable" side of that scale.

Relationships are 100% my responsibility and 100% the other person's. Nobody can claim to have nothing to do with anything that happened. "My wife won't answer questions!!!" Well...if she's a fear-based person, then she interprets direct questions as attempts to find blame - fear-based people see blame all over the place, and any attempt you make to understand them leads to them feeling blamed...so, if you figure out how to ask your question more gently, then she may not go into the cave. You *could* blame your wife for choosing to live her life in fear...and you might be factually correct, but you would harm the relationship. If, instead, you took responsibility for your own actions (your business) and asked questions more gently, the problem would be resolved.

MOST problems can be resolved by action from either person. But if you blame or find fault, you remove that tool from your toolkit.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Is this thread open again to debate the thread title?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> Is this thread open again to debate the thread title?


It was never really closed. 

I just bump it up ever-so-often to show people new to TAM that if your spouse cheats on you, that's on them, not you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

DustyDog said:


> I recommend you dive headlong into Gottman's Seven Principles for Successful Marriage, and Sue Johnson's work on emotion-based therapy.
> 
> What you'll find is that "fault" is kind of a no-no. There is almost no human problem where it is possible to 100% pin "fault" or "blame" on any individual. The effort expended to prove one person's at fault- or worry about it - could have been spent resolving the issues...and there's always more than one issue.
> 
> ...


Oh. I see. *I* get it. 

_"You must accept (some) responsibility for the fact that your husband ran off with his secretary and left you and your three children in penury."

"You must accept (some) responsibility for the fact that you found your wife in the bed you shared with her, with the 17 year-old pool boy who serviced the pool on your neighbour's property."

"You must accept (some) responsibility for the fact that your wife ran off with her boss, leaving you and your two pre-teen kids weeping and heart-broken."

"You must accept (some) responsibility for the fact that your husband ran off with your best friend." _

Ummm.... *No. You. Don't.*

You might have to accept some responsibility that you have a troubled marriage. That is something most people can agree with.

But accepting some responsibility for the cheating of your spouse is pretty much like saying: "You have to accept some responsibility that your husband/wife chose to beat the living snot out of you. Why did you keep making them so angry?"


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

DustyDog said:


> I recommend you dive headlong into Gottman's Seven Principles for Successful Marriage, and Sue Johnson's work on emotion-based therapy.
> 
> What you'll find is that "fault" is kind of a no-no. There is almost no human problem where it is possible to 100% pin "fault" or "blame" on any individual. The effort expended to prove one person's at fault- or worry about it - could have been spent resolving the issues...and there's always more than one issue.
> 
> ...


Most problems CAN be resolved but it takes actions by both parties working toward a common goal. 

In general terms the blame game and fault gets fueled because of a parties inability to "own their own decisions". A ws needs to own the decision to cheat and if more would do that in the beginning of discovery instead of blaming every thing but themselves the quest by the bs for fault would be greatly reduced. 

The moment anyone hears "I cheated because you did x,y or z" both parties shut down and dig trenches for a war.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

When you're unhappy and hurting, something that gives immediate relief, pleasure, and validation is extremely tempting, when the alternative is a very long, very difficult process to try resolve the problems, with no assurance of success or relief in sight. Very human, very understandable, but not acceptable just the same.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> When you're unhappy and hurting, something that gives immediate relief, pleasure, and validation is extremely tempting, when the alternative is a very long, very difficult process to try resolve the problems, with no assurance of success or relief in sight. Very human, very understandable, but not acceptable just the same.


Which is why, when my wife asked me if my affair was a revenge affair because of her affair, I said: "No. This has nothing to do with that. I cheated on you and I am sorry."

Did it have something to do with my wife's affair? Yes. But there were things I should have done other than cheating.

I owned my cheating.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Oh. I see. *I* get it.
> 
> _"You must accept (some) responsibility for the fact that your husband ran off with his secretary and left you and your three children in penury."
> 
> ...




People have the right to find and adopt the coping mechanism that works for them. If a BS want to take some responsibility, and it works for them, who are we to say it is wrong? It might be wrong for you, but you should not say it is wrong for them.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Sometimes I like to use hyperbole to illustrate a point.

A spouse having an affair is a willful act. Some would call it a murder of the marriage.

Saying that a murdered marriage is the fault of the marriage is like saying that the victim of a murder is at fault for their death.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

michzz said:


> Sometimes I like to use hyperbole to illustrate a point.
> 
> A spouse having an affair is a willful act. Some would call it a murder of the marriage.
> 
> Saying that a murdered marriage is the fault of the marriage is like saying that the victim of a murder is at fault for their death.


Yet our legal system does precisely this. We have felony or first degree or aggravated murder, regular murder, manslaughter, and justifiable homicide. 

It does not imply that the victim was necessarily responsible, but it absolutely takes into account the circumstances.


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

There can be many reasons for cheating, I think, but none of them has anything to do with the spouse or marriage. Any reason is from within the person who chooses to do so. Whether the marriage is perfect or faulty is irrelevant, the faults lie within the cheater.

Before my husband cheated on me, he pushed me away, he shut me out and he stopped meeting my needs. And through that I learned that my happiness couldn't depend on him, so I learned to be happy regardless. I focused on my work and on doing what I needed in order to be happy. And even though he neglected me, I didn't neglect him in return. 

I could have been the one to look for happiness elsewhere, but I looked within and to God. He didn't cheat because he was unhappy in our marriage, he was unhappy because he didn't know how to communicate or deal with his problems. 

There are so many reasons he cheated, and none of them has anything to do with me. Lack of boundaries, inability to communicate, poor cognitive skills, rationalisation and the list goes on. Those are the reasons. If unhappiness or marital problems were the reasons then I would have had a reason, which I didn't. I agree that there is a difference between reason and excuse, but not a very big one. And I don't think the reason for cheating ever lies with the faithful spouse.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

michzz said:


> Sometimes I like to use hyperbole to illustrate a point.
> 
> A spouse having an affair is a willful act. Some would call it a murder of the marriage.
> 
> Saying that a murdered marriage is the fault of the marriage is like saying that the victim of a murder is at fault for their death.





Cletus said:


> Yet our legal system does precisely this. We have felony or first degree or aggravated murder, regular murder, manslaughter, and justifiable homicide.
> 
> It does not imply that the victim was necessarily responsible, but it absolutely takes into account the circumstances.


OK, without rabbitholing into the myriad of "murder" definitions, I would maintain that any definition that involves self defense is spurious in regards to infidelity.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

michzz said:


> Sometimes I like to use hyperbole to illustrate a point.
> 
> A spouse having an affair is a willful act. Some would call it a murder of the marriage.
> 
> Saying that a murdered marriage is the fault of the marriage is like saying that the victim of a murder is at fault for their death.


You see how bizarre things get quickly if you continue to think "fault" is important?

Replace with "resolve"...that's where you benefit.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Oh. I see. *I* get it.
> 
> _"You must accept (some) responsibility for the fact that your husband ran off with his secretary and left you and your three children in penury."
> 
> ...


The problem with "facts" is that there is no such thing as a fact that stands alone. An event happens because of years of build-up. To insist on yanking a fact out of an entire story line and focusing on it is the furthest you can get from finding a solution.

Nobody has to take responsibility for ANYTHING in the past, if all you want is to solve problems. The only thing you need to be responsible for is what you're going to do NOW to make things better.

This whole notion of "finding fault" is only useful if you've decided to flat-out give up, and split the proceeds based on who made the least mistakes.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

DustyDog said:


> The problem with "facts" is that there is no such thing as a fact that stands alone. An event happens because of years of build-up. To insist on yanking a fact out of an entire story line and focusing on it is the furthest you can get from finding a solution.
> 
> Nobody has to take responsibility for ANYTHING in the past, if all you want is to solve problems. The only thing you need to be responsible for is what you're going to do NOW to make things better.
> 
> This whole notion of "finding fault" is only useful if you've decided to flat-out give up, and split the proceeds based on who made the least mistakes.


The problem is, that the past informs and predicts future behavior.

Cheating behavior is non trivial. It's nuclear in intensity compared to, say, leaving the dishes in the sink or even bouncing the occasional check.

Fault is the exact word i was using on purpose.

Yes, you can resolve marriage issues, even a crappy one like exposure to STDs via a cheating spouse. But fault can be assigned for bringing that to the party in the first place.

The onus for earning trust is on the cheating party.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

DustyDog said:


> The problem with "facts" is that there is no such thing as a fact that stands alone. An event happens because of years of build-up. To insist on yanking a fact out of an entire story line and focusing on it is the furthest you can get from finding a solution.
> 
> Nobody has to take responsibility for ANYTHING in the past, if all you want is to solve problems. The only thing you need to be responsible for is what you're going to do NOW to make things better.
> 
> This whole notion of "finding fault" is only useful if you've decided to flat-out give up, and split the proceeds based on who made the least mistakes.


The problem is with professional counsellors is that they are trained to believe a lie.

"Well, yes, Mrs Blankinsoppe, I am aware that your husband leaving you and your three children for his 19-tear-old secretary must have caused you some upset.

"But surely you must accept that in order for you to move forward, you must accept some responsibility for the failure of your marriage? 

I mean, what other explanation *could* there be?


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> "Well, yes, Mrs Blankinsoppe, I am aware that your husband leaving you and your three children for his 19-tear-old secretary must have caused you some upset.
> 
> "But surely you must accept that in order for you to move forward, you must accept some responsibility for the failure of your marriage?
> 
> [/IMG]


Any counselor who said that doesn't really understand why there's a client in their office, IMO. I can't think of a time when any counselor encouraged me to take responsibility for the past - even yesterday. 

Had to LOLZ at the name...there was a Blankenscope family where I grew up...mighty close.

The past is the past....all you can change is now, with the intent of creating a better this afternoon.

Disclaimer: I'm not a counselor, but did take counseling and psych classes during my management education, as my focus was on organizational behavior, change management, and building strong effective teams.

And, believing I'm as insane as a loon, I get a lot out of spending time with counselors.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

I accept that I am responsible for past and current problems in my marriage. I also accept that I am not responsible for my H's past serial cheating. My own cheating? Yes, I am 100% responsible for the decision to have EA's. However, I know I would never have gone there had he not cheated on me. He didn't accept responsibility for his cheating initially and then I rug swept and eventually had a reactive EA. I know it's heresy in your book MattMatt, but to my way of thinking, my H IS responsible to a degree for the domino effect that his cheating had which eventually led to my own EA. I am as sure as I could be of anything in my life that I would never have cheated if my H hadn't done so first. Yes I could have left him, yes I could have been the bigger person and not sunk to his level, but had he not cheated, our lives would be very different now. I would still be the innocent wife I was, the one way back then who never even considered that cheating could happen in my marriage.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

Nomorebeans said:


> My STBX has been having an affair since last July. I found out about it in February. He asked for a divorce in October, characterizing it as just wanting to be on his own so he would be "free to pursue other relationships." He at first tried to justify what he'd done by blaming me for our bad marriage - that he felt vulnerable and lonely because things weren't good between us. He still falls back to doing that from time to time, saying things like "You KNOW things with us weren't right and haven't been for a long time, don't you?"
> 
> I've taken the advice of "The 180" - don't believe a word they say in their own defense - they will say anything to justify their actions. So, I don't. We're in the process of divorcing; I'm no longer trying to fight it - he wants to be with the OW.
> 
> ...


I have always been curious. 

How many people actually want a divorce and there is no other man or woman.

Anyone out there have this happen to them? 
No one else, just wanted out.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

blahfridge said:


> I accept that I am responsible for past and current problems in my marriage. I also accept that I am not responsible for my H's past serial cheating. My own cheating? Yes, I am 100% responsible for the decision to have EA's. However, I know I would never have gone there had he not cheated on me. He didn't accept responsibility for his cheating initially and then I rug swept and eventually had a reactive EA. *I know it's heresy in your book MattMatt, *but to my way of thinking, my H IS responsible to a degree for the domino effect that his cheating had which eventually led to my own EA. I am as sure as I could be of anything in my life that I would never have cheated if my H hadn't done so first. Yes I could have left him, yes I could have been the bigger person and not sunk to his level, but had he not cheated, our lives would be very different now. I would still be the innocent wife I was, the one way back then who never even considered that cheating could happen in my marriage.


Actually, no. It's not heresy. Because I know that my wife's affair resulted in my affair.

*But!* I should have taken other steps to resolve the hurt that my wife's affair caused.

That my my error.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

VeryHurt said:


> I have always been curious.
> 
> How many people actually want a divorce and there is no other man or woman.
> 
> ...


Me. 

I'm not interested in having another relationship...ever. I have no one waiting in the wings. I just want to get the hell away from him.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

DustyDog said:


> Any counselor who said that doesn't really understand why there's a client in their office, IMO. *I can't think of a time when any counselor encouraged me to take responsibility for the past - even yesterday.*
> 
> Had to LOLZ at the name...there was a Blankenscope family where I grew up...mighty close.
> 
> ...


The comments lay counselors make are to get the client to feel better. They are not paid to make non-clients feel better.

AA and many clerical counselors emphasize repentance, atonement, and admitting to past conduct.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

DustyDog said:


> This whole notion of "finding fault" is only useful if you've decided to flat-out give up, and split the proceeds based on who made the least mistakes.


Finding fault is only for the benefit of the penitent, so that they may make an appropriate correction for themselves. There is no use in faulting someone unremorseful about their actions or behaviors, however there is use in someone who was wronged by another to not take on fault for that which was beyond their control, and realizing the fault of deciding to act unfaithfully lies entirely with the cheater allows the betrayed to begin their healing, because for anyone to accept blame for that which they can not control only keeps the wound open indefinitely.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

VeryHurt said:


> I have always been curious.
> 
> How many people actually want a divorce and there is no other man or woman.
> 
> ...


When the realization my spouse was a serial cheater dawned on me, I knew instantly there was no reconciliation with her in my future. I went straight for the divorce and she agreed to sign an affidavit of infidelity so that we could waive the 12 month waiting period to file the divorce with the court. Neither of us has another man or woman lined up. But both of us knew there would be in the future.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

DustyDog said:


> The problem with "facts" is that there is no such thing as a fact that stands alone. An event happens because of years of build-up. To insist on yanking a fact out of an entire story line and focusing on it is the furthest you can get from finding a solution.
> 
> Nobody has to take responsibility for ANYTHING in the past, if all you want is to solve problems. The only thing you need to be responsible for is what you're going to do NOW to make things better.
> 
> This whole notion of "finding fault" is only useful if you've decided to flat-out give up, and split the proceeds based on who made the least mistakes.


Well if nobody has any responsibility for past actions how can a ws spouse say a bs bad behavior had any cause or effect in the present? 

People back decisions in the here and now based on past experiences and knowledge. Without holding yourself at least accountable for decisions made in the past, the decisions in the present will be flawed and won't solve problems.

You don't get to just say "I'll try better next time" and it's all better.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Emmi said:


> There are so many reasons he cheated, and none of them has anything to do with me. Lack of boundaries, inability to communicate, poor cognitive skills, rationalisation and the list goes on. Those are the reasons. .



Is that his list or yours? Did he say none of the reasons had to do with you?


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## Cowboy2 (Nov 12, 2013)

blahfridge said:


> I accept that I am responsible for past and current problems in my marriage. I also accept that I am not responsible for my H's past serial cheating. My own cheating? Yes, I am 100% responsible for the decision to have EA's. However, I know I would never have gone there had he not cheated on me. He didn't accept responsibility for his cheating initially and then I rug swept and eventually had a reactive EA. I know it's heresy in your book MattMatt, but to my way of thinking, my H IS responsible to a degree for the domino effect that his cheating had which eventually led to my own EA. I am as sure as I could be of anything in my life that I would never have cheated if my H hadn't done so first. Yes I could have left him, yes I could have been the bigger person and not sunk to his level, but had he not cheated, our lives would be very different now. I would still be the innocent wife I was, the one way back then who never even considered that cheating could happen in my marriage.


I can totally understand this line of thinking.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

to delete double post below.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Here's my point of view that will probably go over like a roach floating in a punch bowl. When a cheater cheats, its the BS that is primarily the most hurt (notwithstanding maybe some other collateral damage). Accordingly, the cheater is responsible for the hurt caused the BS, but why should they care if the BS deprived them, abused them, belittled them and they found someone else to sooth their wounds? Why is the pain caused by cheating on an abusive, neglectful spouse considered worse than the pain caused by the abuse and neglect?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

VladDracul said:


> Here's my point of view that will probably go over like a roach floating in a punch bowl. When a cheater cheats, its the BS that is primarily the most hurt (notwithstanding maybe some other collateral damage). Accordingly, the cheater is responsible for the hurt caused the BS, but why should they care if the BS deprived them, abused them, belittled them and they found someone else to sooth their wounds? Why is the pain caused by cheating on an abusive, neglectful spouse considered worse than the pain caused by the abuse and neglect?


You are comparing the pain of the betrayer to the betrayed? If you want to compare pain, it has been said that the pain and grief of being cheated on is on the same level as the death of a loved one... meanwhile, go to any of the cheater's forums and read how the thrill of not getting caught is so very exciting, and for so many that left their marriage partner for a new man/woman is the best choice they ever made. Doesn't sound in any way similar to me at all. Of course, that is on the basis that not all cheaters are victims of abuse or neglect.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Lon said:


> If you want to compare pain, it has been said that the pain and grief of being cheated on is on the same level as the death of a loved one....



Having come very close to losing my wife several times, i would disagree with that saying. JMHO 

Of course some TAMers who are BS and widows may feel differently.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> Having come very close to losing my wife several times, i would disagree with that saying. JMHO
> 
> Of course some TAMers who are BS and widows may feel differently.


I am by no means the first one to make this comparison. It is not a universal rule though, everyone experiences different kinds of losses in different ways. I just fail to see what kind of pain my ex suffered due to her choice to cheat then leave to go live the party girl life guilt free... while we both experienced the lack of fulfillment together. One day in the distant future, in hindsight, she may come to realize that she made a poor choice and there may be some feelings of loss due to that, but I don't think it will ever be the eviscerating feeling that someone completely vested in a marriage feels upon learning their spouse is being intimate with another person.


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> Is that his list or yours? Did he say none of the reasons had to do with you?


My husband isn't very good with words, so in his words it is because he was depressed, in a bad place and not himself. So it's my list, but he agrees on every point, and he is having IC to work on his issues and hopefully will discover more things about him self that he can fix during this process.

When it was new however, and he was in the fog, he blamed me, our marriage, our life together, everything but himself. Now he sees that most of the things he said back then wasn't even true, and those things that were true, were kind of irrelevant, and definitely irrelevant in his choice to cheat. 

Back then the reasons were 
not enough sex (I have a higher drive than he does)
I was boring, and we never did anything (because of his chronic pain)
My voice was annoying (don't know if this is true, but he now claims it wasn't, I still feel self conscious about it)
I didn't do enough housework (never did, been working on that since the day we met, was better at it then, then ever before)
He said other mean things back then as well, like how she was better looking than me, but this is what I can remember that he used for reasons of being unhappy with me, cheating and wanting to leave. 

Now he sees all those things for what they were, a distorted image of reality that was all in his head. Some of it he took back while he was still deep in the fog. All it took for him to find me more attractive than her was some mascara and a pretty dress. So that was the first reason to go. About the sex thing I just asked if he could remember one time I ever rejected him, and told him unless he initiated he couldn't expect to get any. Even when I was working from 7 am he could wake me up at four in the morning with a boner and I wouldn't reject him. 

I guess it is important for me that we stay very far away from blaming the marriage or the faithful spouse, because when you get cheated on you believe all the worst things possible about yourself. And saying there are reasons for cheating within a marriage is pretty much blaming the marriage just using other words. 

Im glad my husband has taken back all the bad things he said back then, and has gained perspective and insight to see that the reasons lie within himself.


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> Having come very close to losing my wife several times, i would disagree with that saying. JMHO
> 
> Of course some TAMers who are BS and widows may feel differently.


as mush as I think comparing pain is pointless and quite impossible I can relate to the pain of being betrayed in that way to be similar in depth to that of loosing a spouse. 

In a way you do loose your spouse when they cheat on you, but you still have them there with you. I think I would be better equipped mentally to deal with his death than his betrayal. Of course I'm not saying I would pick one over the other. Had I never been cheated on I would never have had this reference point. I never prepared myself for this possibility, but due to his health conditions I have had to prepare myself that I might loose him unexpectedly. I don't think I can ever be prepared for that either, but I always considered it more likely that I would be a young widow than that I would be divorced or even cheated on.

I am so thankful that he is still with me, and that we have the opportunity to work things out, but the pain I felt when this was fresh was stronger than I ever imagined possible. I felt like the pain was the same as if he had died, I lost him, but he was still right there, but that I was in it alone, unjustified and invisible. In addition to the pain I felt humiliated and destroyed. I remember wishing that he would just stab me in the chest and get it over with. I hope I won't ever have to know what it will be like to be a widow, but I can't imagine it being as undignifying and humiliating as being cheated on, I do believe it would be equally devastating though.

I can't imagine anything worse than loosing a spouse and finding out about their infidelity after their death, with no opportunity to ever work through the problems.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> Here's my point of view that will probably go over like a roach floating in a punch bowl. When a cheater cheats, its the BS that is primarily the most hurt (notwithstanding maybe some other collateral damage). Accordingly, the cheater is responsible for the hurt caused the BS, but why should they care if the BS deprived them, abused them, belittled them and they found someone else to sooth their wounds? Why is the pain caused by cheating on an abusive, neglectful spouse considered worse than the pain caused by the abuse and neglect?


It might be here, but not everywhere. I am sure where there is infidelity, there is pain all around, acceptable and acknowledged or not.


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## Cowboy2 (Nov 12, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> Here's my point of view that will probably go over like a roach floating in a punch bowl. When a cheater cheats, its the BS that is primarily the most hurt (notwithstanding maybe some other collateral damage). Accordingly, the cheater is responsible for the hurt caused the BS, but why should they care if the BS deprived them, abused them, belittled them and they found someone else to sooth their wounds? Why is the pain caused by cheating on an abusive, neglectful spouse considered worse than the pain caused by the abuse and neglect?


Depends on the situation IMO but the "abusive neglectful" spouse would have to be pretty bad.

I'm still focusing on this in my case. Just the other night I asked her to explain again what she was unhappy about in our marriage when she first started her affair. She brought up how she'd started working full-time and was still doing most of the housework. I said I remember that time well, I don't remember ever telling you or acting like I wasn't there to help out more. She said she'd get back to me on examples. Uh huh, yeah, sure you will. I was pretty abusive & neglectful alright.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Lon said:


> You are comparing the pain of the betrayer to the betrayed?


Using a really bad case scenario, suppose a woman is married to a verbally abusive man who blatantly uses her weight gain as an excuse not to make love to her, drinks too much, perennially criticizes her for a variety of things, etc., etc. Why would the hurt she caused him by meeting and running off with another man be worse than the hurt he caused her by his abusive behavior?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

VladDracul said:


> Here's my point of view that will probably go over like a roach floating in a punch bowl. When a cheater cheats, its the BS that is primarily the most hurt (notwithstanding maybe some other collateral damage). Accordingly, the cheater is responsible for the hurt caused the BS, but why should they care if the BS deprived them, abused them, belittled them and they found someone else to sooth their wounds? *Why is the pain caused by cheating on an abusive, neglectful spouse considered worse than the pain caused by the abuse and neglect?*


That is a hard question to answer. The first question to answer is why is the WS staying in that marriage where they are belittled or abused? What kind of abuse? If it is physical, fear of death is a damned good reason why they stay and take it, and see no way out. 

Other than the most extreme abuse cases, you will have a hard time making me agree that the WS didn't have options other than cheating.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

VladDracul said:


> Using a really bad case scenario, suppose a woman is married to a verbally abusive man who blatantly uses her weight gain as an excuse not to make love to her, drinks too much, perennially criticizes her for a variety of things, etc., etc. Why would the hurt she caused him by meeting and running off with another man be worse than the hurt he caused her by his abusive behavior?


It's not. But that doesn't make her transgressions more acceptable or validated.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Sure they have options other than cheating. A lot of folks who ultimately leave for the AP are like a monkey that won't let go of one limb before having a firm grasp on another. I believe a majority are like that.
My question goes to why is the hurt caused by the affair worse than the hurt the WS suffered that I will argue was often instrumental in the WS taking the affair road.
I'll go so far as to submit this. Who's to say the WS choose an affair over divorce for the same reason the BS chooses reconciliation over divorce (kids, finances, etc.).


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> Using a really bad case scenario, suppose a woman is married to a verbally abusive man who blatantly uses her weight gain as an excuse not to make love to her, drinks too much, perennially criticizes her for a variety of things, etc., etc. Why would the hurt she caused him by meeting and running off with another man be worse than the hurt he caused her by his abusive behavior?


If I kill your dog because you killed my cat I am not justified in my action. I am still guilty of destruction of personal property and you are responsible for killing my cat. The two actions are unrelated.

As for your scenario, who is hurt more is irrelevant. Being hurt is subjective. An uncaring man may not care if his wife runs off with another man. But both are responsible for their own actions regardless of the resulting harm. 

If you steal you are guilty of theft regardless of if the item stolen is insured.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

KillerClown said:


> The two actions are unrelated..
> 
> 
> 
> If you steal you are guilty of theft regardless of if the item stolen is insured.




Of course the two actions would be related. No one lives life in a vacuum. Every action you take is related in some manner to past experiences. 

And theft of food to save a starving family is morally just. Who cares about the label.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> Sure they have options other than cheating. A lot of folks who ultimately leave for the AP are like a monkey that won't let go of one limb before having a firm grasp on another. I believe a majority are like that.
> My question goes to why is the hurt caused by the affair worse than the hurt the WS suffered that I will argue was often instrumental in the WS taking the affair road.
> I'll go so far as to submit this. Who's to say the WS choose an affair over divorce for the same reason the BS chooses reconciliation over divorce (kids, finances, etc.).


Reconciliation is considered virtuous while the affair is not. Reason for either is irrelevant. Marriage is a social contract. Affair is a violation of that contract. If the terms of the contract cannot be met the contract must be dissolved by mutual agreement. There is always a penalty for violating contracts by deceptive means.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

KillerClown said:


> Reconciliation is considered virtuous while the affair is not. Reason for either is irrelevant. Marriage is a social contract. Affair is a violation of that contract. If the terms of the contract cannot be met the contract must be dissolved by mutual agreement. There is always a penalty for violating contracts by deceptive means.




Infidelity is not the only action that violates the social contract of marriage. It is just one of many. The others include, but are not limited to, physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse. These are as bad or worse than infidelity. In these cases the contract does not need mutual agreement for dissolution. The contract is automatically voided. Reconciliation is not virtuous is any of the above were contributing factors to the affair.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Of course the two actions would be related. No one lives life in a vacuum. Every action you take is related in some manner to past experiences.No, you try to justify your action through past experience. The action I take now right this second is dictated by my sense of right and wrong. If I know that the action is wrong and I do it anyway I am responsible for that action.
> 
> And theft of food to save a starving family is morally just. But legally unjust because society dictates it. Marriage is a social contract. If you do not believe in the social contract you should not have entered into it.Who cares about the label. Marriage is a label created by society. If you do not agree with it then you should not have participated.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

VladDracul said:


> Sure they have options other than cheating. A lot of folks who ultimately leave for the AP are like a monkey that won't let go of one limb before having a firm grasp on another. I believe a majority are like that.
> *My question goes to why is the hurt caused by the affair worse than the hurt the WS suffered* that I will argue was often instrumental in the WS taking the affair road.
> I'll go so far as to submit this. Who's to say the WS choose an affair over divorce for the same reason the BS chooses reconciliation over divorce (kids, finances, etc.).


How do you gauge pain? What criteria do you use? 

And this so-called "pain" is most often in hindsight, and is rarely objective. A lot of times this is actually the re-writing of their relationship history, artificially amplifying the actions of their partners to justify their poor choices and to transfer guilt.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Infidelity is not the only action that violates the social contract of marriage. It is just one of many. The others include, but are not limited to, physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse. These are as bad or worse than infidelity. The perpetrator of such abuse should be arrested and punished. The affair is not a socially acceptable punishment. In these cases the contract does not need mutual agreement for dissolution. The contract is automatically voided. Not legally. The victim of abuse must still file for divorce. The affair is an unrelated matter. Reconciliation is not virtuous is any of the above were contributing factors to the affair.The very act of reconciliation is considered virtuous by Judeo-Christian standards. Social contract of marriage is based on Judeo-Christian sensibility regardless of if you or I subscribe to the belief system.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

A person can agree to a contract at time of agreement and still have it voided by the other party years later. 

Contracts have escape clauses and void clauses, either explicit or implicit. 

As for theft for food, you must not have visited any places in which that actually takes place because in nearly every case the accused is released without penalty, even though the act was technically illegal. 

Moral absolutism is a great position to have when you have lived a comfortable life. If you had relatives who were beat by their husbands or visited a country in which the poverty is so bad you have trouble processing it, you might learn not to see the world in black or white. Not everyone has the strength or the resources to exit a bad situation the way you would expect them to.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> A person can agree to a contract at time of agreement and still have it voided by the other party years later.
> 
> Contracts have escape clauses and void clauses, either explicit or implicit.
> 
> ...


Sorry. Grew up in South Central LA Getto and received every kind of abuse possible. Never stole and never cheated. Moral absolutism got me out of the ghetto. What's your excuse?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

You are flip flopping between marriage being a social contract and a legal contract. 

The covenants of the social contract can be voided even without divorce. 

The same implied contract can occur even in a LTR without marriage.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

KillerClown said:


> Sorry. Grew up in South Central LA Getto and received every kind of abuse possible. Never stole and never cheated. Moral absolutism got me out of the ghetto. What's your excuse?



Great. You were able to escape. Not everyone can. In fact most do not. I learned to be more compassionate and understanding than my sheltered upbringing taught me having have spent time in Brazil. 

I was born with absolutism but learned relativism. 

We differ on this.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> You are flip flopping between marriage being a social contract and a legal contract.
> 
> The covenants of the social contract can be voided even without divorce.
> 
> The same implied contract can occur even in a LTR without marriage.


No I'm not. If you don't bother to get legally married monogamy is only implied. You can pack your bag and walk out the door anytime.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Great. You were able to escape. Not everyone can. In fact most do not. I learned to be more compassionate and understanding than my sheltered upbringing taught me having have spent time in Brazil.
> 
> I was born with absolutism but learned relativism.
> 
> We differ on this.


Relativism is a luxury of the privileged. People in the ghetto live by a code or don't live long.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

KillerClown said:


> Relativism is a luxury of the privileged. People in the ghetto live by a code or don't live long.




Relativism has kept me sane as I sit in the hospital at day #5 waiting for my wife to survive her surgery. All past experiences - marriage difficulties, etc - no longer matter to me. Having her live is all that I care about. Everything else is less important and can be worked out.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Relativism has kept me sane as I sit in the hospital at day #5 waiting for my wife to survive her surgery. All past experiences - marriage difficulties, etc - no longer matter to me. Having her live is all that I can about. Everything else is less important and can be worked out.


Sorry. Didn't mean to be so harsh. I will be praying for you.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> How do you gauge pain? What criteria do you use?
> 
> And this so-called "pain" is most often in hindsight, and is rarely objective. A lot of times this is actually the re-writing of their relationship history, artificially amplifying the actions of their partners to justify their poor choices and to transfer guilt.


As in any willful tort the tortfeasor has justified and rationalized the tort. So yes, they have tweaked history and actions to foster their justification. This notwithstanding, it appears to me the assumption is the pain felt by the BS is greater and more horrible than the pain the BS may have caused the WS in the scenario I gave. So my question to everyone is does the pain felt by the BS take precedence over the pain the the pain the BS may have inflicted on the WS (assuming the verbal abuse/neglect was substantial and not merely concocted to attempt to justify the affair)?


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

honcho said:


> Well if nobody has any responsibility for past actions how can a ws spouse say a bs bad behavior had any cause or effect in the present?
> 
> People back decisions in the here and now based on past experiences and knowledge. Without holding yourself at least accountable for decisions made in the past, the decisions in the present will be flawed and won't solve problems.
> 
> You don't get to just say "I'll try better next time" and it's all better.


We're getting mired in semantics.

If a person cheats, are they responsible for it? Yes. And it's THEIR job to take that responsibility. But...must this be done in order to make progress in the present? No. 

The discussion began using the word "fault", which is harsher and stronger than holding someone accountable. In my experience, those who use the words "fault" and "blame" act and speak as if the actions are unforgiveable...and without forgiveness, there is no possibility of improvement/reconciliation.

And...to forgive someone, you must first hold them accountable...that's not just Socratic, but I know it's in the bible somewhere.

"People back decisions in the here and now based on past experiences and knowledge" - you left out the most important part. "And the desire to create a different future". If we are not intentionally altering behaviors to intentionally create the future we want, then we have glued ourselves to the past.

Who's at fault, who did which, blame, "you made me cry"...these may all be true - but keeping the focus on them is focusing on the past.

The past is useful only as an information source to help us create the future. And, the most recent past is usually the only useful part of the past. And...human memories are flawed, badly..the brain does many things well, but remembering details is not one of them. Another reason to intentionally spend as little time in the past as possible.

The scenario that I've seen work best is to really focus on what you want now. "I don't want to feel so awful"...live it, feel it, immerse yourself....only after having extreme clarity about exactly what you feel, is it possible to know which bits from the past might be instructive. To begin by looking at the past often results in lost time and no progress.

Over the years, I've sought various mechanisms for figuring things out - I mean mostly for me, but the techniques have come in useful when I've been assigned to determine why a particular group or team is ineffective. As I've read this book, learned about that therapy technique, etcetera, a common theme emerges and it's just about what I wrote in the previous paragraph.

Here it is, stated from REBT..after determine the feeling you don't like, or the result you don't like, 

1) Identify the activating behavior - what led to this feeling? Could be your behavior or someone else's
2) Determine if you have any unpleasant beliefs about it (you do), such as "I must be awful for her to have done that" or "This relationships is doomed", or "she's a *****"
3) Own your feelings - if someone believes their relationship is doomed, then those feelings came from their belief...not directly from the outside behavior
4) Dispute whichever idea it is that is tied directly to the negative feeling. "Just because she lied to me doesn't make me awful". In some schools, they teach simply replace words in the sentences and try them on. Instead of "I'm awful", say to yourself "I'm great". It's amazing how well we believe ourselves after a while even if we say things we don't think are true, initially.
5) Detect the new feeling. "I'm annoyed that she did that" is an improvement over "I'm depressed because I'm an awful person".

20 years ago, the book "Mind Over Mood" was used in group counseling...brief introduction then worksheets, one of the first "homework" books used in counseling. About the same time, "Three Minute Therapy", written by Michael Edelstein was published. Both books used Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, a sub-version based roughly on Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, and both books are available in PDF form for free on the web these days.

IMO, the most accessible version, the shortest, comes from the author I quote in my sig, Byron Katie. Search for her website, find the Little Book. IIRC, about 10 pages of textual description, then a set of exercises you may choose.

The reason feelings are addressed immediately is that most people, when overwhelmed with negative feelings, don't see anything with clarity and are not capable of planning or choosing a change. Feelings must be dealt with. And, if a person is mired in such negativity, it rarely helps at all simply by having the other person admit fault. BTDT. 

Sure, focus on who's to blame. Do so while keeping obsessive focus on how this is helping build a better tomorrow.

None of this is fun.

At first, it's unbelievable.

But once you get acclimated, you'd be amazed how much a person can change, if they keep the focus on themselves.

Good luck


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

DustyDog said:


> We're getting mired in semantics.
> 
> If a person cheats, are they responsible for it? Yes. And it's THEIR job to take that responsibility. But...must this be done in order to make progress in the present? No.


Neither should we confuse responsibility, or rather failing to admit responsibility, with justification. In cheating, any form of betrayal or any other willful act, the person doing it is always responsible for the act. Justification for doing the act is a different dog.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

I just know in my old neighborhood a woman who pulls a gun on her cheating husband is respected and a woman who F**** another man to get back at a cheating husband is called a H*.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Likely even more respected if she either shoots him or runs him off. (or both if he survives)


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

VladDracul said:


> Using a really bad case scenario, suppose a woman is married to a verbally abusive man who blatantly uses her weight gain as an excuse not to make love to her, drinks too much, perennially criticizes her for a variety of things, etc., etc. Why would the hurt she caused him by meeting and running off with another man be worse than the hurt he caused her by his abusive behavior?


A person that abusive would probably severely lack empathy and likely wouldn't feel a sense of betrayal to the same degree as a person that actually loved their marriage partner and while failing to meet her needs at least wanted to still.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I've heard it said that we're all just selfish beings.

Sometimes we're the bug flitting around the air. At other times we're the car's windshield covered with smashed bugs.

Who's the victim? Who's the problem? Who cleans up the mess?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

michzz said:


> I've heard it said that we're all just selfish beings.
> 
> Sometimes we're the bug flitting around the air. At other times we're the car's windshield covered with smashed bugs.
> 
> Who's the victim? Who's the problem? Who cleans up the mess?


Except we are neither insects nor inanimate objects, we are intelligent self-aware beings capable of reason, logic, forethought and cognition to make our choices and plan our actions before making them (even the most broken of us). So therefore a choice to cheat (in any capacity or relationship) truly is that, a choice. So the only question is if the choice to cheat (ie circumvent the established protocol) ever the right choice for one to make? I can say quite confidently using the moral compass I'm equipped with, the answer is no, never.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Lon said:


> So the only question is if the choice to cheat (ie circumvent the established protocol) ever the right choice for one to make? I can say quite confidently using the moral compass I'm equipped with, the answer is no, never.


I can say with just as much certainty that I can conjure up scenarios in my head where the answer is absolutely yes - not that I know anyone specifically in that situation.

Could it not be nobler for a 30 year old spouse of a recent quadriplegic to honor the vow to stay with his mate for the remainder of their natural life together while breaking the vow to never have sexual relations outside of the marriage? And to do so without her knowledge which would only manage to deepen her sorrow for her situation?

Extreme case? Sure, but you said never, and I can't agree with that.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Cletus said:


> I can say with just as much certainty that I can conjure up scenarios in my head where the answer is absolutely yes - not that I know anyone specifically in that situation.
> 
> Could it not be nobler for a 30 year old spouse of a recent quadriplegic to honor the vow to stay with his mate for the remainder of their natural life together while breaking the vow to never have sexual relations outside of the marriage? And to do so without her knowledge which would only manage to deepen her sorrow for her situation?
> 
> Extreme case? Sure, but you said never, and I can't agree with that.


If I were a quad or suffered a major disability and couldn't participate sexually with my spouse, absolutely I would want to be involved in the decision should she seek to have that need fulfilled by someone else. And I would genuinely consider it. Likewise it would still be an absolute betrayal of trust if she did so deceptively behind my back. There is no scenario you can conjure to justify cheating where I could not envision a counterpoint that actually withstood ethical scrutiny.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Lon said:


> If I were a quad or suffered a major disability and couldn't participate sexually with my spouse, absolutely I would want to be involved in the decision should she seek to have that need fulfilled by someone else. And I would genuinely consider it. Likewise it would still be an absolute betrayal of trust if she did so deceptively behind my back. There is no scenario you can conjure to justify cheating where I could not envision a counterpoint that actually withstood ethical scrutiny.


But you want to be part of that decision making process. There are no shortage of people who would rather be ignorant of something like this. If the ethical balance includes sparing them the most trauma in the way they would wish to be spared, then the equation changes.

It's the difference as I see it between the golden and the platinum rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you vs. do unto others as they would have you do unto them.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Cletus said:


> But you want to be part of that decision making process. There are no shortage of people who would rather be ignorant of something like this. If the ethical balance includes sparing them the most trauma in the way they would wish to be spared, then the equation changes.
> 
> It's the difference as I see it between the golden and the platinum rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you vs. do unto others as they would have you do unto them.


But a quadrapilegic is still of sound mind, what person of sound mind would willingly want to be deceived? I can't think of anyone except for some fictional other that would consciously choose ignorance, and what you are saying is that your conscience trumps their sub-conscience. When a cheater lies "in order to spare their spouse trauma" all it means is that their action was unethical enough that it would reasonably cause that much trauma in the first place.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Lon said:


> But a quadrapilegic is still of sound mind, what person of sound mind would willingly want to be deceived? I can't think of anyone except for some fictional other that would consciously choose ignorance, and what you are saying is that your conscience trumps their sub-conscience. When a cheater lies "in order to spare their spouse trauma" all it means is that their action was unethical enough that it would reasonably cause that much trauma in the first place.


I sincerely believe my wife is one of those people. She would rather not know. She would prefer ignorance to having a say in the decision making process _under these conditions_. Even if she gave permission for such an arrangement, making it technically not behind her back, she would in the end be much happier with the illusion than the (probably suspected) reality.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Cletus said:


> I sincerely believe my wife is one of those people. She would rather not know. She would prefer ignorance to having a say in the decision making process _under these conditions_. Even if she gave permission for such an arrangement, making it technically not behind her back, she would in the end be much happier with the illusion than the (probably suspected) reality.


If she is the kind of person that is happier with the illusion of happiness and fidelity, wouldn't that make it easy to have this conversation with her and if she agreed that for her ignorance would be bliss you could easily convince her it was just a theoretical conversation all along? I guess it just seems dangerous to me for you to assume that indeed your conscience would trump her sub-conscience.


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## veganmermaid (Jun 17, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Having come very close to losing my wife several times, i would disagree with that saying. JMHO
> 
> Of course some TAMers who are BS and widows may feel differently.


This is an interesting statement - aren't you the poster who is currently engaged in an EA while your wife is terminally ill? 

Do you think perhaps this clouds your perspective?

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

KillerClown said:


> No I'm not. If you don't bother to get legally married monogamy is only implied. You can pack your bag and walk out the door anytime.


Since people who are legally married can also likewise pack their bag and walk out the door anytime. Does that mean that monogamy for married folks is also only implied?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cletus said:


> But you want to be part of that decision making process. There are no shortage of people who would rather be ignorant of something like this. If the ethical balance includes sparing them the most trauma in the way they would wish to be spared, then the equation changes.
> 
> It's the difference as I see it between the golden and the platinum rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you vs. do unto others as they would have you do unto them.


Wanting to be spared reality is probably indeed pretty common. Does not mean it is helpful.


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

Cletus said:


> But you want to be part of that decision making process. There are no shortage of people who would rather be ignorant of something like this. If the ethical balance includes sparing them the most trauma in the way they would wish to be spared, then the equation changes.
> 
> It's the difference as I see it between the golden and the platinum rule - do unto others as you would have them do unto you vs. do unto others as they would have you do unto them.


A lot of people who I know nothing about claim this online. I suspect most of them do so because they themselves have or would be willing to participate in an affair.

My sister was recently someone's AP and she claimed that it would be better never to know. She now says her ex probably cheated on her but she is glad she never knew. There is no way of knowing if this is true, but I believe that her opinion on that now is coloured by her willingness to to this to another girl, and her fear for the consequences should this girl find out. 

I think anyone who would be willing to cheat or be someone's OW could hold this opinion. But to anyone else ignorance isn't bliss. And it should be up to them to decide. By going behind someone's back you not only betray them, but also deny them their right to the truth and their right to make informed choices for themselves.

The truth has its own right to come out. Reality is what it is regardless. Life isn't fair and if my spouse became a quadriplegic that would be my cross to bear, the vows states through sickness and in health, if you can not truly commit to that then don't take that vow. If that happened to me my husband would have to find a way to get sexual gratification within the boundaries of our marriage, and vice verse. The trick is to be solution orientated. There are many ways to have sex, and as long as one is open to exploring them there is no reason to ever look elsewhere. 

I can not come up with any scenario where I would consider an affair to be justified, and I don't think you could ever come up with a scenario that I would feel justifies an affair. And the fact that we differ on this only shows that we have very different moral standards, and I think maybe different levels of strength. No matter how you twist and turn it there is a level of selfishness to your reasoning. Has a disabled spouse not suffered enough? Is it worse for you to have limited to no sex, than for her to have limited to no function of her body? Adding lies, deception and betrayal to that seems unusually cruel and unnecessary. Yes, people have varying sexual needs, but do they trump humanity and decency?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

veganmermaid said:


> Do you think perhaps this clouds your perspective?



Not "currently". Past tense on both. My thread ended but life continues. 

When the distant possible worse case becomes a close very likely worse case, one's perspective becomes much clearer.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Emmi said:


> A lot of people who I know nothing about claim this online. I suspect most of them do so because they themselves have or would be willing to participate in an affair.
> 
> My sister was recently someone's AP and she claimed that it would be better never to know. She now says her ex probably cheated on her but she is glad she never knew. There is no way of knowing if this is true, but I believe that her opinion on that now is coloured by her willingness to to this to another girl, and her fear for the consequences should this girl find out.
> 
> ...


I have been cheated on in secret. It hurt because I remember thinking: "So, is that all you thought about me? You didn't even bother to be honest with me?"

My wife, however, was honest and upfront. And, though it hurt to know she was going to cheat on me, in general I think it was better to know than to be treated like a fool as my first two girl friends did.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

Personal said:


> Since people who are legally married can also likewise pack their bag and walk out the door anytime. Does that mean that monogamy for married folks is also only implied?


Sure, except for those pesky things like alimony, division of assets, child support, relationship with parents and married friends, all those people you invited to your fabulous wedding, religion, etc. 

If none of these things apply then your marriage was just a piece of paper.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Emmi said:


> And the fact that we differ on this only shows that we have very different moral standards, and I think maybe different levels of strength.


Very well. If we're going to make character extrapolations, I will counter then with your lack of empathy.

If I am right, and there are people who would prefer to be left in the dark about an affair under these circumstances, then all of your pontificating is simply shorthand for imposing your standard on them, which they do not want, combined with an inability to imagine a person who might find the morality of the situation opposite to you. 

It's the difference between the golden rule and the platinum rule. I much prefer the latter.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jld said:


> Wanting to be spared reality is probably indeed pretty common. Does not mean it is helpful.


Says who? If I want to be spared reality in a way that harms no one, who are you to tell me that it isn't helpful? 

Should we forcibly take away everyone's religion? That would be a really good dose of helpful reality to many, I imagine.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Says who? If I want to be spared reality in a way that harms no one, who are you to tell me that it isn't helpful?


I said it does not mean it is helpful. But it may be. 

Again, like all opinions expressed on this board, it is just one possible view. 



> Should we forcibly take away everyone's religion? That would be a really good dose of helpful reality to many, I imagine.


I would agree. Many scales can fall from the eyes when religion is removed. 

But we have freedom of religion in our country, like we have freedom of speech. Not realistic to think of taking it away.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

While I sympathize with people who would like to be spared the terrible news of their spouse's infidelity, I would submit that very few affairs go undiscovered. It's only a matter of time. Most people are not skilled at covering their tracks.

When is it better to find out? When you get a STD? When you find out your child is not related to you? When your child tells you that everybody at school is talking about it?


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Sadly for BSs of the world, I think a lot more affairs go undiscovered than you would imagine. Especially short term affairs, a drunken one night stand, the once-and -done type. 

The cheater may be so horrified by what they have done, they justify not being honest with the "I don't want to cause my spouse pain" excuse. When they are really protecting themselves and the marriage they just trashed.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Whether the BS REALLY wants to know about it or not, whether you want to call it fault, reasons, excuses, justification or something else, whatever physical state the BS is in, there is no scenario you can think of where I will EVER agree that cheating is not 100% on the WS, and they are solely to be held responsible for the consequences of their decision.

If you decide to cheat on your quadriplegic dying wife who really doesn't want to know about it, and you 'get away' with it without any consequences whatsoever, does that make it right???

Anyone who cheats and doesn't accept complete responsibility for it doesn't deserve the gift of reconciliation, for starters.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> Sadly for BSs of the world, I think a lot more affairs go undiscovered than you would imagine. Especially short term affairs, a drunken one night stand, the once-and -done type.
> 
> The cheater may be so horrified by what they have done, they justify not being honest with the "I don't want to cause my spouse pain" excuse. When they are really protecting themselves and the marriage they just trashed.


I tend to think there is a degree of difference between doing your next door neighbor's wife on a regular basis and waking up in a bathtub with a naked girl on top of you covered in vomit. Not saying either is good. Just different.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Divorcing a quadriplegic dying wife is worse than cheating on a dying wife who does not want to know about it. Both are wrong. But one is far worse than the other. I don't expect you to agree with me.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> Divorcing a quadriplegic dying wife is worse than cheating on a dying wife who does not want to know about it. Both are wrong. But one is far worse than the other. I don't expect you to agree with me.


Of course both are wrong. But deigning to think you know what she wants without consulting her is the epitome of selfishness.

The only way I see around this is for every married couple to have this conversation when it isn't a real issue, ie when they're both healthy. Include it in your living will. "In the event of my incapacitation, I give my spouse/do not give my spouse permission to find sexual solace elsewhere without telling me about it".

If you didn't have this conversation before, it's too late once the reality is real. And it's YOUR fault for not bringing it up before. So swallow your lumps and BRING IT UP NOW. Don't think you know what she wants.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> Neither should we confuse responsibility, or rather failing to admit responsibility, with justification. In cheating, any form of betrayal or any other willful act, the person doing it is always responsible for the act. Justification for doing the act is a different dog.


I agree...and would add, that sometimes it's a gray line between justification and mere rationalization.


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

Cletus said:


> Very well. If we're going to make character extrapolations, I will counter then with your lack of empathy.
> 
> If I am right, and there are people who would prefer to be left in the dark about an affair under these circumstances, then all of your pontificating is simply shorthand for imposing your standard on them, which they do not want, combined with an inability to imagine a person who might find the morality of the situation opposite to you.
> 
> It's the difference between the golden rule and the platinum rule. I much prefer the latter.


Why do you not reply to my actual points about the case? I have no interest in repeating myself but I feel pretty confident I completely picked your argument apart, using logic, reason, commonly agreed upon social rules (like lying is wrong) and empathy, even if you don't think I have any. 

The key word here is "if", as long as you do not know if you are right your entire reasoning is irrelevant. And you keep mentioning the platinum rule, which is a paradox in it self. You can not know what the person truly want unless you ask them, and you can not ask them and then fulfill their wish should you have been right in the first place. 

So when you don't know what they want you are left with only two options, using the golden rule instead and base your assumption of what they would want on your own biased self, or go with the direction that is right based on social rules and general knowledge of right and wrong. 

We teach toddlers that lying is wrong, all religions I can think of teach that lying is wrong. Finding out that you have been lied to feels bad. Even when it was to spare your feelings it feels bad. 

I shouldn't take the bait on the empathy thing, I know. But I do find it odd that you, a fWS, accuse me, a BS, of not being able to empathise with a fictional unknowing BS. You have been on this forum a lot longer than I have so maybe you have seen any BSs who wish they never knew, but I have not. I have only seen people desperate to know the truth. 

My comment to your character was not at all meant to be offensive but only an observation. Anything I might think about you as a person is irrelevant in this thread, what is relevant is that you thought you had found a scenario that would justify cheating, I am 100% certain that you are wrong and that no such scenario exist. As the title states, an affair is never the fault of the BS, this is absolute truth.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Keeping affair details or knowledge of an affair from a spouse is always done for selfish reasons. The biggest one being the fear that telling all will result in the end of the marriage and the comfortable life the WS has. Sure, part of the reason can be to spare the BS more pain and for the children's sake, but it's mostly about fear and shame. 

I told my H not too long ago that this part of his lying was, in some ways, the hardest to get past. I asked him point blank, '"what do you think I would have done 8 years ago if you had admitted to 5 past affairs instead of telling me that there had only been one?" He couldn't answer so I answered for him, "I would have left you." It finally hit home for him when I told him that, by trickle truthing me, he denied me the right to make an informed decision about my own life. It showed a complete lack of respect for me as an autonomous adult. That's harder to deal with than the actual cheating. 

I've been way more honest with him about my EA than he deserves, but at least he can never say he isn't staying with his eyes closed. Once he accepted the truth of what he had done to me, things began to get better for us. We still aren't together as a married couple, but there is a lot more respect and kindness. 

A BS doesn't necessarily need every detail of the WS's cheating, that's up to them, but the big truths should never be hidden. Otherwise, you are foisting upon your spouse a false life. Everyone deserves to know the basic truth about their life. People expect it from doctors, but not their own spouses? Makes no sense to me.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Emmi said:


> Why do you not reply to my actual points about the case?


The entire argument is premised on what the other person wants, and by asking what the other person wants in the moment, you may destroy the very goal you're trying to achieve.

So yes, you may have to guess, and you may guess wrong. it's a risk. If you are truly trying to do the thing that will make your spouse happy, it's a risk you will have to take. But I don't have to just flip a coin and take a blind stab in the dark. I've been married 31 years - I have three decades of observation and communication to guide my decision. 

I think, in this highly unlikely and fabricated scenario that will never happen to me in reality, that my wife would rather not know. I think my chance of being right is much better than a 50/50 coin toss. I KNOW it's a better choice than divorce. I THINK it's a better choice than asking permission. 

But if I substitute my wishes for hers, I'm serving myself, not her. The morality of the situation is not absolute. It depends on the wishes of the other party.



> I think anyone who would be willing to cheat or be someone's OW could hold this opinion. But to anyone else ignorance isn't bliss. And it should be up to them to decide. By going behind someone's back you not only betray them, but also deny them their right to the truth and their right to make informed choices for themselves.


I think "everyone else", including the sister you dismiss, gets to decide for themselves whether or not ignorance is bliss. You don't have the authority to supersede their desires or define them out of existence.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Cletus said:


> I think, in this highly unlikely and fabricated scenario that will never happen to me in reality, that my wife would rather not know. I think my chance of being right is much better than a 50/50 coin toss. I KNOW it's a better choice than divorce. I THINK it's a better choice than asking permission.


Go and ask your wife, right now, what she would want.


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## Bremik (Feb 6, 2009)

I am respondonding to this as a son of parents who divorced after 43 years of marriage due to my dad having 2 affairs the in the last 10 years of marriage of which he married the last affair. Though I forgave him as my father I can't forgive him as my moms husband.

I was extremely angry with him primarily because of the destructiveness to my mother. She is possibly crushed beyond repair and seems happy just to go through motions of life no longer searching for a mate. Unfortunately due to endless conversations with her I know way more about their personal/sex life than I ever wanted to know however, it has provided insight and raised questions for me.

Many times on TAM people complain about being lonely, not talked to, sexless, verbally berated etc. by a spouse. It has also been brought up that marriage implies certain "privileges" over friendships. When we enter a marriage contract for better or worse most religious views have BOTH couples giving 100% to the betterment of the marriage. What happens when only one of the couple is giving their all? Hasn't the marriage contract been broken?

I am not talking about the serial cheaters or extreme cases whether it be some form of abuse or whatever. I am talking about Romeo and Juliet that truly love each other and start off happy emotionally, sexually etc. Who is responsible when Romeo decides he doesn't want sex anymore even though he KNOWS it is very important to Juliet? Or when Juliet would rather hang with the girls when she KNOWS Romeo wants that time with her and is available? What about When Romeo decides to stay at work late all the time when Juliet is home alone and wants to spend time with him? Or Juliet is always on the road with her job and when she is home is on the phone with co-workers while Romeo is waiting for "his turn" in the background?

When a spouse starts willfully denying their partner the things that make them happy in the marriage aren't they breaking the contract? People change I understand but the longer your married the more you know what makes your spouse tick and makes them happy. If a spouse refuses to provide marriage "benefits" aren't they breaking the contract?

I thought my parents had the perfect marriage- they were financially successful and secure and could do anything they wanted and did. But in the end they broke their marriage contract with each other through denial of individual happiness in the marriage benefits. Now there are some very happy lawyers and 2 lost souls.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

My mother was a fragile woman emotionally, prone to depression and anxiety. My father shielded her from anything bad and I learned to do the same, to the point that when my brother was sentenced to three months of weekends in jail for a DWI, my mother never found out. Looking back on it, I don't think we did her any favors by treating her this way. To a degree, it kept her in an infantile state. As hard as life can be, I want the truth always. I don't believe you have to tell everyone everything, my children do not know the full reason for their parents' estrangement. I classify that under the heading, that it's our marriage and some things in a marriage are not anyone elses business, including the childrens.

As far as what the other person wants in the moment, they oftentimes don't even know that themselves. When my H told me about one affair, I stopped him when he began to tell me about his AP. I couldn't handle it in the moment and then neither of us ever brought it up again until I had my own affair. I initially tried to keep my affair from my H because I thought I wanted to spare his feelings. It was really because I was afraid of what it would do to my children if we split up and how I would manage on my own. He found out anyway by spying on me. Would I have told him without that? I don't honestly know, but when it all blew up I did vow to myself that I would live my life from now on in a more authentic way. For my safe, not his, as he didn't deserve my honesty after what he did. 

But, now I realize that it isn't for anyone else to decide what their spouse is entitled to know when it is information that can alter the course of their life. My H doesn't know all the details of my relationship with my AP, but he knows the big truth and he has chosen to stay. At this point, I know enough, though I am sure there is more. I am unsure about staying, but more information is probably not going to be the deciding factor anymore. Truth, as painful as it can be, brings about growth. Without it, adults stay in a childlike state. I think many WS don't tell because they don't want to lose the ego boost that comes with having a spouse who trusts them and looks up to them. My H has changed and I care deeply about him. But I will never look at him the same way again as I did pre-D day. I am sure he has wished many times that I never found out and he never had to tell me anything so that he could have his innocent wife and former life back again. On the other hand, what we have been through together has made us more equal, thoughtful, and kind to each other. When you have the truth, you can begin to regain some respect for the person who betrayed you.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Cletus said:


> It's the difference between the golden rule and the platinum rule. I much prefer the latter.


Your platinum rule exposes the chooser to their own interpretations (which can be twisted and skewed), whereas at least the golden rule calls for a little more basis in objectivity. I think the key phrase in Emmi's whole comment was "informed consent", and like in healthcare applying your platinum rule would be like the Dr. not giving you the choice of whether you receive his treatment or not, it is forced upon you. Some people certainly do act like they would prefer this method, it's simpler... but ultimately it goes against our basic human rights.

edit: and further, to bring it back to the title of this thread, if a doctor (or cheating spouse) makes the ultimate decision without the informed consent of the person they are treating, then morally isn't that the same thing as taking ultimate responsibility for that action? If their decision or action causes harm to the one they are treating then the "fault" for any pain defaults undeniably to them. That's why doctors (and spouses) make contracts - to establish the rules of the relationship, which clearly are based on proper ethical guidelines and mutual respect. Going deceptively outside of those guidelines is by definition disrespectful to the other party... no two ways about it.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Lon said:


> Your platinum rule exposes the chooser to their own interpretations (which can be twisted and skewed), whereas at least the golden rule calls for a little more basis in objectivity. I think the key phrase in Emmi's whole comment was "informed consent", and like in healthcare applying your platinum rule would be like the Dr. not giving you the choice of whether you receive his treatment or not, it is forced upon you. Some people certainly do act like they would prefer this method, it's simpler... but ultimately it goes against our basic human rights.
> 
> edit: and further, to bring it back to the title of this thread, if a doctor (or cheating spouse) makes the ultimate decision without the informed consent of the person they are treating, then morally isn't that the same thing as taking ultimate responsibility for that action? If their decision or action causes harm to the one they are treating then the "fault" for any pain defaults undeniably to them. That's why doctors (and spouses) make contracts - to establish the rules of the relationship, which clearly are based on proper ethical guidelines and mutual respect. Going deceptively outside of those guidelines is by definition disrespectful to the other party... no two ways about it.




We are on day 8 of a hospital stay. We authorized care at the highest level but the individual details are left solely to the doctors. We don't give individual consent to every test, procedure etc. so kind of , much of the care is forced on you and if you reject any test they can decide to not treat you. 

So the doctor is truly deciding what is best for the patient. In same way a cheating spouse might make decisions that are in the best interest of the wife.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Lon said:


> Your platinum rule exposes the chooser to their own interpretations (which can be twisted and skewed), whereas at least the golden rule calls for a little more basis in objectivity. I think the key phrase in Emmi's whole comment was "informed consent", and like in healthcare applying your platinum rule would be like the Dr. not giving you the choice of whether you receive his treatment or not, it is forced upon you. Some people certainly do act like they would prefer this method, it's simpler... but ultimately it goes against our basic human rights.
> 
> edit: and further, to bring it back to the title of this thread, if a doctor (or cheating spouse) makes the ultimate decision without the informed consent of the person they are treating, then morally isn't that the same thing as taking ultimate responsibility for that action? If their decision or action causes harm to the one they are treating then the "fault" for any pain defaults undeniably to them. That's why doctors (and spouses) make contracts - to establish the rules of the relationship, which clearly are based on proper ethical guidelines and mutual respect. Going deceptively outside of those guidelines is by definition disrespectful to the other party... no two ways about it.


Which golden rule are we talking about? The phony one from the fictional work, the bible, or the real one: "Whoever has the most gold, makes the rules."


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

blahfridge said:


> Truth, as painful as it can be, brings about growth. Without it, adults stay in a childlike state.


Totally agree.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

LucasJackson said:


> Which golden rule are we talking about? The phony one from the fictional work, the bible, or the real one: "Whoever has the most gold, makes the rules."




Good point. The person who values the relationship less chooses the rule.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Good point. The person who values the relationship less chooses the rule.


I think you're spot on with that. That's why we tell BS's to stop being the nice guy/girl. No begging, no pleading, no nothing. Flip the script on the cheater. That works almost every time. When you don't want someone, they wonder why. It affects their self-esteem and they want you that much more.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> Good point. The person who values the relationship less chooses the rule.


Huh? how does this make any sense at all? Clearly the golden rule reference was to the "do unto others..." version.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Lon said:


> Huh? how does this make any sense at all? Clearly the golden rule reference was to the "do unto others..." version.


That one is the obsolete version. The new one is better. "Whoever has the gold, makes the rules". That's more accurate in today's culture.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

LucasJackson said:


> I think you're spot on with that. That's why we tell BS's to stop being the nice guy/girl. No begging, no pleading, no nothing. Flip the script on the cheater. That works almost every time. When you don't want someone, they wonder why. It affects their self-esteem and they want you that much more.


I have always taken the "180" or flipping the script not at all to affect the self-esteem of the wayward spouse but rather to empower the victim in order to help them get their way out of their victimhood. I suppose sometimes it has the effect you are talking about, but that is a secondary reaction that doesn't always happen, nor does it really help when it does happen (usually only complicates things). When there is a sexual mismatch many people will advise changing the temperature (ie the hotter one cools their jets a little) but I'm not sure that is even in the same realm as choosing whether or not your loyal spouse deserves the truth from you about your infidelity.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

LucasJackson said:


> That one is the obsolete version. The new one is better. "Whoever has the gold, makes the rules". That's more accurate in today's culture.


Is it obsolete? Not for me it isn't, nor those I have in my life. Do you prefer your version for the relationships you keep? (and if so are you the one with the gold or without? Obviously the spouse that is kept in the dark about their spouse's infidelity is the one without, correct?)


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Lon said:


> Your platinum rule exposes the chooser to their own interpretations (which can be twisted and skewed), whereas at least the golden rule calls for a little more basis in objectivity.


The golden rule will always suffer from the problem of projecting your preferences onto others. The platinum rule will always suffer from the problem of incorrectly understanding the desires of others.

Pick your poison. Start with the golden rule and modify as you learn enough to be confident. In a fight at home, I don't care if someone raises her voice in the heat of the argument. I therefore raise my voice in an argument. My wife views this as bullying - she does not want me to argue with her the way I would have her argue with me. I therefore have to follow the platinum rule and do it her way if I'm to be respectful of her.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Cletus said:


> The golden rule will always suffer from the problem of projecting your preferences onto others. The platinum rule will always suffer from the problem of incorrectly understanding the desires of others.
> 
> Pick your poison. Start with the golden rule and modify as you learn enough to be confident. In a fight at home, I don't care if someone raises her voice in the heat of the argument. I therefore raise my voice in an argument. My wife views this as bullying - she does not want me to argue with her the way I would have her argue with me. I therefore have to follow the platinum rule and do it her way if I'm to be respectful of her.


I get what your saying, and I would even extrapolate that a cheater using the golden rule to guide the treatment of their spouse is just flawed. It just isn't any more flawed than trying to interpret their desires using the same set of moral guidelines that got you into an affair in the first place. I just tend to believe that being deceived is universally undesirable.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> We are on day 8 of a hospital stay. We authorized care at the highest level but the individual details are left solely to the doctors. We don't give individual consent to every test, procedure etc. so kind of , much of the care is forced on you and if you reject any test they can decide to not treat you.
> 
> So the doctor is truly deciding what is best for the patient. In same way a cheating spouse might make decisions that are in the best interest of the wife.


wow I missed this comment until now, and I believe your analogy flops on its face, a cheating spouse is in no way making decisions for the best interest of the betrayed spouse. Your analogy is more akin to a doctor abusing his discretionary powers by taking advantage of his patients when they are anesthetized or unconscious on his table.

In a marriage from time to time you have to make discretionary decisions in the absence of your spouse, and it is your responsibility as a loving partner to make choices that benefit the marriage, not to abuse that discretionary power to make selfish ones that would be a complete betrayal of trust. Yeesh, why is this so difficult to comprehend? Why are you married if you want to behave like a single?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Lon said:


> wow I missed this comment until now, and I believe your analogy flops on its face, a cheating spouse is in no way making decisions for the best interest of the betrayed spouse. Your analogy is more akin to a doctor abusing his discretionary powers by taking advantage of his patients when they are anesthetized or unconscious on his table.
> 
> 
> 
> In a marriage from time to time you have to make discretionary decisions in the absence of your spouse, and it is your responsibility as a loving partner to make choices that benefit the marriage, not to abuse that discretionary power to make selfish ones that would be a complete betrayal of trust. Yeesh, why is this so difficult to comprehend? Why are you married if you want to behave like a single?




The medical analogy is spot on. Neither my wife nor I having Living Wills, despite her health condition. We trust each other implicitly to make life and death decision as to what is best for each other, including when to DNR. 

That does not mean i will instruct the doctors to let her die because i want to be single, want the insurance money and want to trade her in for a younger model without having to give up 50% of my wealth. 

Jeez.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> The medical analogy is spot on. Neither my wife nor I having Living Wills, despite her health condition. We trust each other implicitly to make life and death decision as to what is best for each other, including when to DNR.
> 
> That does not mean i will instruct the doctors to let her die because i want to be single, want the insurance money and want to trade her in for a younger model without having to give up 50% of my wealth.
> 
> Jeez.


You missed my point, you only put your trust in the doctors because they have sworn an oath to do what is in their patients' best interest (oh and where I live the doctors do not have authority over the patient's decision, the patient can always refuse treatment). So far they have not broken that trust by acting maliscously, but that is what a spouse does when they cheat - malpractice of the marriage.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

On the topic of living wills, I was surprised when our lawyer told us living wills are not legal where I live. My family/spouse do NOT, by default, have the legal right to dictate my healthcare wishes, and can be overridden by a even a social worker, never mind a physician.

If this is important to you, you should consult a lawyer about representation and an advance directive.


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