# Janet Bloomfield on "rape culture"



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

http://judgyb1tch.com/2015/08/26/the-rape-debate-jessicavalenti-doesnt-want-you-to-see/
(Change the 1 to an i in the first part of the url).


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

the link on the false rape charge = murdered AP is why AC and such scares me. That is a harsh price to pay for a lying woman claiming she was raped.....


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

naiveonedave said:


> the link on the false rape charge = murdered AP is why AC and such scares me. That is a harsh price to pay for a lying woman claiming she was raped.....


Sort of like this...

http://the.hitch****.zone/wiki/Alfred_Hitch****_Presents_-_Revenge


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

If the most vocal feminists on this forum were of the Wendy McElroy type and not Valenti-ites, I'd, at least, be able to respect their views.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Where are all the feminists from the affirmative consent threads tearing Wendy McElroy a new a-hole for disagreeing with them?

No mocking derision, no snarky putdowns, no nothing??

C'mon, I dare you to watch the debate/discussion between two feminists regarding 'rape culture'.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

An anti-feminism thread...but with a bonus....a strike out against AC and a mockery of rape culture. How totally unexpected!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

If we're just going to link stuff to speak for us on these topics, that's easy!

Lies, Damn Lies, and Janet Bloomfield: The world?s least convincing liar is now trying to smear me | we hunted the mammoth


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

7 women working tirelessly to attack equal rights for women - Salon.com

(hint: one of them is Janet Bloomberg)


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

OnTheFly said:


> Where are all the feminists from the affirmative consent threads tearing Wendy McElroy a new a-hole for disagreeing with them?
> 
> No mocking derision, no snarky putdowns, no nothing??
> 
> C'mon, I dare you to watch the debate/discussion between two feminists regarding 'rape culture'.


LOL.. you dare us????? Now that's funny.

Here's a news flash for you. Most of us work for a living, have families, etc. We are not online every moment of every day to jump to attention and respond on command.

Me? I've been working... taking care of my dog how has an ear hemangioma (poor guy), my HVAC needed a repair guy today so now I've been online all evening (after getting home from work at 8PM) researching the bid he gave for replacement vs just fixing the darn thing... and cooking dinner, stopping by a store, etc etc.

Sorry I did not have time to play this little game of bash the feminists today.... which has become quite the sport here on TAM. Maybe, if I'm bored and have some time later in the week, I might chime in. But right now it's bed time.

You all have fun with the bashing... looks like FW added some balance to this 'discussion'... or I mean bashing session. >


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I mean yeah...if people are going to post anti-feminist links to a ranting female MRA's blog...I'm going to post links to anti-MRA blogs. Pretty easy, we don't even HAVE to argue we can just post our arguments in the words of someone else.

How fun! Let's do it.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

The author didn't seem to have an unbiased opinion on what was actually said imo. I don't have any previous opinions on either of those speakers, but the person who wrote that article obviously does. Some of the conclusions they came to on the second speakers points just made me think 'wtf, did we listen to the same video?'. Sometimes people want to see something so much that they'll see it regardless of what's really there and that's how that came across.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

So tell me again why Dr. Judith Butler - gay feminist icon and spokesperson against everything male is such a HUGE fan of radical Islamic groups like Hamas and Hezbollah who routinely use rape as a weapon of social control, to say nothing of their almost casual extermination of any gays they find? 

I guess 'rape culture' is where you find it, if and only if it serves some other higher purpose.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

What is the purpose of baiting threads? I don't understand.


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

OnTheFly said:


> Mrs. Submission, you seem like a nice person, so I'll answer you. This is not a baiting thread. The video linked to in the link posted shows a debate between two feminists. The author of the blogpost is decidedly against feminism and gives her view of the debate and then allows the viewer/reader to decide for themselves by watching it. One of the debaters, Jessica Valenti, is pro-affirmative consent and believes in rape culture. The other does not. There are NO men involved in anyway.
> 
> Please don't be scared off by the likes of FaithfulWife and others, and spend 38min and watch the video. If anything, you'll have a deeper understanding of the issues at hand and decide for yourself. It'll put some context into the affirmative consent threads on this forum. Those opposed are not just ''lovers of rape culture'' or misogynistic cavemen.
> 
> ...


Based on your comment about the absence of mocking words from feminists on this forum, it seems like you posted this thread in order to incite a reaction out of them. That confuses me because I don't understand the reason for it. 

Nobody can "scare" me into not watching a video and forming my own opinion on it. I am watching it now as we speak. So far, I agree with McElroy. Rapists are to blame for sexual assault and not some "culture" that has been fabricated to prove points. She is using detailed analysis of often cited studies which have major holes in them. As a woman who has also known violence at the hands of men, I wonder if women who have actually experienced such abuse are less inclined to embrace "rape culture" because we know how it feels to be truly violated. 

For the record, I am not a feminist but I also do not feel the need to bash women who are. There's nothing healthy or worthwhile about women putting each other down for the choices we make. My personal experience has been that feminists often pressure and shame women who don't embrace their beliefs. It's gotten to the point where I am very careful about revealing that I'm not a feminist to other women; I would rather not endure any more condescending lectures from other ladies who cannot accept that not everyone wants to or needs to be a feminist.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Mrs.Submission said:


> Based on your comment about the absence of mocking words from feminists on this forum, it seems like you posted this thread in order to incite a reaction out of them. That confuses me because I don't understand the reason for it.
> 
> Nobody can "scare" me into not watching a video and forming my own opinion on it. I am watching it now as we speak. So far, I agree with McElroy. Rapists are to blame for sexual assault and not some "culture" that has been fabricated to prove points. She is using detailed analysis of often cited studies which have major holes in them. As a woman who has also known violence at the hands of men, I wonder if women who have actually experienced such abuse are less inclined to embrace "rape culture" because we know how it feels to be truly violated.
> 
> For the record, I am not a feminist but I also do not feel the need to bash women who are. There's nothing healthy or worthwhile about women putting each other down for the choices we make. My personal experience has been that feminists often pressure and shame women who don't embrace their beliefs. It's gotten to the point where I am very careful about revealing that I'm not a feminist to other women; I would rather not endure any more condescending lectures from other ladies who cannot accept that not everyone wants to or needs to be a feminist.


On a minor side point, I'm not the original poster of this thread, just a contributor. The thread was not garnering the attention it needed as I thought the video was very illuminating and needed to be seen. So, I posted some rhetoric and here you are. That's the reason for it.

First off, thank you for actually watching it.

Secondly, your well-reasoned reaction to it so far gives me hope.

Thanks again!


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Mrs.Submission said:


> For the record, I am not a feminist but I also do not feel the need to bash women who are. There's nothing healthy or worthwhile about women putting each other down for the choices we make. My personal experience has been that feminists often pressure and shame women who don't embrace their beliefs. It's gotten to the point where I am very careful about revealing that I'm not a feminist to other women; *I would rather not endure any more condescending lectures from other ladies who cannot accept that not everyone wants to or needs to be a feminist.*


If a man said *that*, he would be accused of bashing feminists.
That's why women have to be the ones to say it. Thanks!


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

technovelist said:


> If a man said *that*, he would be accused of bashing feminists.
> That's why women have to be the ones to say it. Thanks!


Well, what I said is not bashing feminists at all. 

I can't see why a man would be accused of being anti feminist for making the same statement.


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## Luxey (Jun 5, 2015)

Mrs.Submission said:


> Well, what I said is not bashing feminists at all.
> 
> I can't see why a man would be accused of being anti feminist for making the same statement.


Because some feminists insist that if you have a penis and don't agree with their ideology, even a minor philosophical disagreement with it, it means you're a misogynist and probably kick puppies for fun.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Mrs.Submission said:


> Well, what I said is not bashing feminists at all.
> 
> I can't see why a man would be accused of being anti feminist for making the same statement.


Of course you weren't bashing feminists; I didn't say you were.
But some feminists routinely accuse men of bashing feminists for making statements like yours.

Why? Because of the automatic feminist response of "men are the oppressors, and therefore can't be right; women are the oppressed and therefore can't be wrong".

But when a woman criticizes feminists, that automatic response doesn't work. That's why it's important for women to help out with criticizing the extreme feminist positions such as "every woman has to be a feminist".


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## Mrs.Submission (Aug 16, 2015)

Luxey said:


> Because some feminists insist that if you have a penis and don't agree with their ideology, even a minor philosophical disagreement with it, it means you're a misogynist and probably kick puppies for fun.


I see. Those same women also think that you are a mindless slave to men in your life if you aren't a feminist. 

My husband might be head but I am the neck. Guess which body part controls which way the head turns? Exactly. :grin2:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Ok, I listened to Wendy McElroy's part of the video. I'll listen to the other speaker tomorrow. (It's my bed time.)

Before I go further, I will state that I do consider myself a feminist in that I strongly believe in women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. 

Feminism is a HUGE tent. Yes there are some women and men who are what I would call 'radical' feminists, who say some pretty crazy things. The same holds for the more radical/hateful wing of the MRA.

Now about the video..

Wendy McElroy was good. I agree with what she said. While I have not verified what she said about the particular stats she mentioned not even having a valid source, I would not be surprised. 

I'll comment about the rest of it later.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Wendy McElroy says that she does not blame culture. She blames the men who rape and that we “cannot build justice for women on injustice for men.”

She really does not address ‘rape culture’. I don’t like the use of the term ‘rape culture’ because most people will not stop long enough to even ask what that term means. Instead they will do what this thread is trying to do and what we see so much of… to start screaming that ‘rape culture’ means that all men are rapists. But that’s not what ‘rape culture’ means.

Jessica Valenti also blames the men who rape. However she also believes that there is something in our society is a problem.. she calls it “rape culture”. She’s not saying that all men are rapists. She clear states that all men are not. Instead she says:


> “Rape culture is a system of policies, pop culture, institutions in the world around us that implicitly or explicitly condones sexual assaults.
> 
> That might be through a victim [inaudible] headline that suggests a woman should not have been drinking or should not have been out. Or maybe it’s a school policy that does not go far enough to punish sexual abusers. That’s all part of rape culture.





> Rape culture is the environment that allows rape to happen over and over again.


This is not a situation in which one of these women is 100% right and the other is 100% wrong. As in most things, each are partially right and partially wrong.

I agree with Wendy McElroy that we need to blame rapists for rape. I’m perplexed by her seemingly complete denial that there are elements of our society that seem to support rape by blaming female rape victims, by making light of rape, etc.

I also agree with Jessica Valenti that there is something in our culture that implicitly, and even explicitly condones sexual assaults. But I don’t agree with her way of thinking about how we should go about handing rape cases. For example, I believe that all rapes should be report to the police and tried in our courts… I have a post above where I talk about this more thoroughly, so I won’t repeat it here.

Here is an example of something that I think that would be included in ‘rape culture’. It’s the results of a study done by Sarah R. Edwards:


> According to the survey, which analyzed responses from 73 men in college, 31.7 percent of participants said they would act on “intentions to force a woman to sexual intercourse” if they were confident they could get away with it. When asked whether they would act on “intentions to rape a woman” with the same assurances they wouldn’t face consequences, just 13.6 percent of participants agreed.


To me what is the most striking about this is that 31.7% do not know that forcing sexual intercourse is rape? What in our culture/society has taught them that this is not rape? Why would that many guys not know that forcing sex is called rape?

I’ll also say that I don’t think that asking 73 guys something tells us much at all. Once thing I read said that a study is being designed that will be carried out in campuses across the country. It will be designed to be scientific. I’ll wait for the results of that study because I have no idea if the numbers in Sarah R. Edwards’ study are good enough. IMHO her sample size is too small and they only represent some guys in the University of North Dakota.

Here is another of what is called ‘rape culture’: 
During a poll of high school students, Jacqueline Goodchilds asked the following question: "Is it all right if a male holds a female down and physically forces her to have sex if ..." 
When Is Rape Okay?

Why do these high school kids not know that rape in never ok? Why don’t they know that the things listed in the survey (see link) do not mean that the woman consented to sex and that they have no right to force sex on a woman/girl under these circumstances. And this is not only high school boys who believe that forced sex is ok. Quite a few of the girls think it’s acceptable under those circumstances.

Another example that Valenti gives of rape culture is that of a case of an 11 year old girl who was gang raped. The defense lawyers tried to paint her as a woman who learned men into her trap, even calling her a Spider (“come into my parlor said the spider to the fly”) There were preachers all over the country raising money to defend what they saw as the “real” victims… the men who raped her. This is what they are talking about when the word ‘rape culture’ is used. How can anyone explain away high school kids and full grown men as old as 17 raping an 11 year old girl? Apparently quite a few can.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/09/us/09assault.html?_r=0

Here are pictures of some of the guys who apparently did not know that it’s not ok to gang bang an 11 year old (they knew she was 11).
Lawyer likens gang-rape victim to a spider luring men to web - Houston Chronicle

I could give you situations that I know of in my own life in which women were raped and a good portion of the community came together in defense of the rapist. They made excuses for him. Told outright lies to anyone who would listen, to include the police and investigators. They claimed that they knew what happened. These are people that if you asked any of them directly if they thought rape was OK, they would tell you no, of course not. So why did they lie to cover for a rapist? Why did they just assume that the rape victim was a liar? Why? Because on some level they do not believe that rape is really rape. On some level they believe that all women are just liars. That’s what is meant by ‘rape culture’.

We can look at a lot of what media puts out from some rap music, to videos, to movies that condone rape and sexual violence. It’s all around us. 

There are rape jokes… yes, I think that for the most part rape jokes are at best in very poor taste. One example in that in some threads on here about how the manner in which women dress must be controlled, one guy actually posted that he wished he could dress in a way that got women to rape him. WTF????? Doesn’t he know that rape is not about sex? Doesn’t he know that rape is not funny? It’s violent, this horrible. Clearly he’s never been raped because he would not have posted that had he experienced what rape really is. For people who have been victims of rape (male and female victims) rape jokes are not funny. They soften rape and even teach less mature people that rape really is not that bad… it’s just a bit of sex after all. 

All that said, I do not like the term ‘rape culture’ because it gives a way to deflect serious discussion that has to be had about rape. It makes it easy to shut down discussion. That way a person just need object to the term ‘rape culture’ and not address the real topic… why does our society do things like the examples Valenti gave and I gave. That’s what happened with Valenti. She makes some good points. But instead of addressing her points, she’s attacked for using the term ‘rape culture’. That makes is easy to shut her down and make sure no one listens.

If we want to have a discussion, let’s talk about things that actually happen instead of a term that no one knows what it really means.

So there you go. I agree with both of them and disagree with them both …. On different topics.

And I agree.. we need to throw out the term ‘race culture’ and instead discuss specific incidents and topics so that people are more aware.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

That's horrific. A young girl is gang raped and the report quotes someone saying: “It’s just destroyed our community,” said Sheila Harrison, 48, a hospital worker who says she knows several of the defendants. “These boys have to live with this the rest of their lives.”

Well, f*ck you and f*ck your community lady. I hope they rot in jail forever. I have no sympathy for them. They deserve a hell of a lot worse.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

No good comes of this.


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