# Physical Turn offs - Man's appearance



## staarz21

So, obviously I am bouncing this off of the physical appearance thread in the Men's clubhouse. Some of it got me thinking if men and women find the same things unattractive. When reading the responses over there, I noticed that I have some similar turn offs toward men - but I also had some (like tattoos) that were not a bother for me.

*What are your turn-offs about a man's body that determine whether or not you are sexually attracted to him? *

Physical attributes only please. I know that we look for good personalities....but physically what are we looking to find ladies?


My turn offs:

Being too skinny
Overweight 
Smoking
Bad teeth/breath
A belly that looks pregnant (beer belly?)
A belly that hangs over the pants
Mustaches - ugh
Long hair on head
Not trimmed down below. Seriously, I've seen a forest or two.
Unibrows
Hair on the back!!!!
Nasty feet/toenails - come on guys, take care of the feet! 
Pierced ears, nose, eyebrows, etc. 

Men don't have to be built, muscle definition helps...a lot....but it's not a turn off it he doesn't have it. I think if my H got some muscle definition, he would have to try and pry me off of him like that thing from Aliens....rawr.


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## CuddleBug

What turns off Mrs.CuddleBug about me:

- not always trimming minor nose hair
- not always cutting hand and toe nails
- not wearing deodorant every day, even on my days off work
- not brushing and dental flossing my teeth every day

That's about it. So I wear deodorant on my non working days, always trim my minor nose hair and I make sure my hands toe nails are cut. I usually brush my teeth every day but once in a while.....heh.

And she likes it when I have a minor beard because its soft on her cheeks or I'm very clean shaven, just not in between.

I've never been fat and with a gut.


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## Faithful Wife

Too skinny/too fat...obviously this is different for each of us, what is too skinny/fat for me may be totally different than for others.

Lack of muscle, especially skinny arms/no biceps

Too short (under 6ft)

Bad/missing teeth

Ear plugs/facial piercings

Poor hygiene (ie: B.O., bad breath, stinky feet)

Unkempt eyebrows...I don't need them all girly looking but please pluck or cut the long ones

No butt (sadly, this is kinda common)

No thighs/stick legs

Nasty hands or nails, or feet or toe nails

Small hands

. . . . . . . 

But I don't see "people" this way, I'm only talking about if I'm dating and evaluating a guy that way. These things on people don't matter to me at all if I'm never going to date or kiss the guy. I don't look at men at think "ew" if they have these traits. I don't even notice these traits on them if I'm not in the market.


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## staarz21

Faithful Wife said:


> Too skinny/too fat...obviously this is different for each of us, what is too skinny/fat for me may be totally different than for others.
> 
> Lack of muscle, especially skinny arms/no biceps
> 
> Too short (under 6ft)
> 
> Bad/missing teeth
> 
> Ear plugs/facial piercings
> 
> Poor hygiene (ie: B.O., bad breath, stinky feet)
> 
> Unkempt eyebrows...I don't need them all girly looking but please pluck or cut the long ones
> 
> No butt (sadly, this is kinda common)
> 
> No thighs/stick legs
> 
> Nasty hands or nails, or feet or toe nails
> 
> Small hands
> 
> . . . . . . .
> 
> *But I don't see "people" this way, I'm only talking about if I'm dating and evaluating a guy that way. These things on people don't matter to me at all if I'm never going to date or kiss the guy. I don't look at men at think "ew" if they have these traits. I don't even notice these traits on them if I'm not in the market*.


I think that's important to say because I also don't look at people that way.


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## CuddleBug

I'm 6 ft 2 and 220 lbs

Not as bulky anymore and leaned up with Intermittent Fasting diet

Weight trained most of my life so I'm big, not steroid huge and strong with bigger shoulders.

No missing teeth, yet.....heh

No tattoos or piercings anywhere

No stinky feet

Bad breath if I miss one day of brushing, say on a weekend...

I cut my eye brows that grow long

I have a nice but and legs from weights

Always cut my hand and toe nails

I have large hands and they dwarf Mrs.CuddleBug's hands like gloves

My feet are size 12 I believe and I wear size 12 or 13 boots.


I guess I'm okay then.:smthumbup:


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## staarz21

CuddleBug said:


> What turns off Mrs.CuddleBug about me:
> 
> - not always trimming minor nose hair
> - not always cutting hand and toe nails
> - not wearing deodorant every day, even on my days off work
> - not brushing and dental flossing my teeth every day
> 
> That's about it. So I wear deodorant on my non working days, always trim my minor nose hair and I make sure my hands toe nails are cut. I usually brush my teeth every day but once in a while.....heh.
> 
> And she likes it when I have a minor beard because its soft on her cheeks or I'm very clean shaven, just not in between.
> 
> I've never been fat and with a gut.


I forgot about nose hair!! H keeps his in check most of the time though. Maybe that's why I gave it no thought!


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## kristin2349

CuddleBug said:


> What turns off Mrs.CuddleBug about me:
> 
> - not always trimming minor nose hair
> - not always cutting hand and toe nails
> - not wearing deodorant every day, even on my days off work
> - not brushing and dental flossing my teeth every day
> 
> That's about it. So I wear deodorant on my non working days, always trim my minor nose hair and I make sure my hands toe nails are cut. I usually brush my teeth every day but once in a while.....heh.
> 
> And she likes it when I have a minor beard because its soft on her cheeks or I'm very clean shaven, just not in between.
> 
> I've never been fat and with a gut.


Cuddlebug:

I just realized I know WAY too much about you. Hope the Jock Itch is in remission.:rofl:

My turnoffs...

Too skinny (big one)
Too short
No muscles
Bad dresser (but shouldn't be overly GQ level into clothes)
Not a fan of mustaches, but like scruff 
Dirty fingernails 
Gross feet in mandals
Weird piercings or body modifications
Bad taste in music or movies


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## bandit.45

As I grow older I get hairs growing out of really weird places. My biggest peeve is these damn hairs that grow right out of the tops of my ears. I look like a Papillon dog if I don't razor them off. 


Grosssssssss!


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## kristin2349

bandit.45 said:


> As I grow older I get hairs growing out of really weird places. My biggest peeve is these damn hairs that grow right out of the tops of my ears. I look like a Papillon dog if I don't razor them off.
> 
> 
> Grosssssssss!


For what it is worth Papillions are adorable little foo foo dogs:rofl:


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## staarz21

bandit.45 said:


> As I grow older I get hairs growing out of really weird places. My biggest peeve is these damn hairs that grow right out of the tops of my ears. I look like a Papillon dog if I don't razor them off.
> 
> 
> Grosssssssss!


Lol my husband had me pluck his the other day because the barber forgot to get it!!! At least he wants to keep up with it though!


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## GTdad

kristin2349 said:


> Bad taste in music or movies


Uh oh.

I'm grateful for a wife who tolerates the fact I think "Mars Attacks!" is brilliant and puts up with me dancing with the kids to the B-52s.


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## ocotillo

staarz21 said:


> ....I think if my H got some muscle definition, he would have to try and pry me off of him like that thing from Aliens....rawr.


I love it when you ladies talk like that about your husbands...


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## lucy999

bad hygiene
gross feet
bad teeth
too thin/obese
cheap shoes
hair in weird places
big, pendulous balls


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## bandit.45

staarz21 said:


> Lol my husband had me pluck his the other day because the barber forgot to get it!!! At least he wants to keep up with it though!


Oh god I'm old and gross! You people here are supposed to keep me in shape. What the hell am I paying you for?


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## kristin2349

GTdad said:


> Uh oh.
> 
> I'm grateful for a wife who tolerates the fact I think "Mars Attacks!" is brilliant and puts up with me dancing with the kids to the B-52s.



I should have said "my taste in music or movies" lol. Of course I think I have great taste in music and movies...But I have been known to watch some doozies. I'm a big fan of John Waters, and I like the B-52s.


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## Faithful Wife

kristin2349 said:


> Bad taste in music or movies


Well...that's not really a physical thing...if we're going there, I have a separate 3 page list of turn offs.


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## lucy999

Faithful Wife said:


> Well...that's not really a physical thing...if we're going there, I have a separate 3 page list of turn offs.


Wow yours is only 3 pages huh?


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## Faithful Wife

kristin2349 said:


> I'm a big fan of *John Waters*, and I like the B-52s.


Me too! He was the guest judge on this weeks Ru Paul's Drag Race...and I had recently watched This Filthy World on Netflix. God my Waters fix.


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## Faithful Wife

lucy999 said:


> Wow yours is only 3 pages huh?


Single spaced, double sided.


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## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> Well...that's not really a physical thing...if we're going there, I have a separate 3 page list of turn offs.


What? You don't like "Plan 9 From Outer Space"?


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## kristin2349

Faithful Wife said:


> Well...that's not really a physical thing...if we're going there, I have a separate 3 page list of turn offs.


True I got off track (not unusual for me). But bad taste in music especially is a deal breaker.


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## Faithful Wife

Bald due to shaving or genetics?


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## Ikaika

Faithful Wife said:


> Small hands
> 
> But I don't see "people" this way, I'm only talking about if I'm dating and evaluating a guy that way. These things on people don't matter to me at all if I'm never going to date or kiss the guy. I don't look at men at think "ew" if they have these traits. I don't even notice these traits on them if I'm not in the market.



This one caught my attention. My wife thinks my hands are freakishly huge. If we put the heals of our palms together my fingers can bend over hers at the second knuckle. 

Comes in handy when playing the bass guitar


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## CuddleBug

hehehe, my jock itch and excema are rare. Maybe once every few years it affects me.

Right now as I type, clean cut hand and toe nails, nose hair trimmed. Just common to me now.

I always have my hair cut extremely short by Mrs.CuddleBug in the bathtub.

No mustache

Got laser eye surgery many years ago so no glasses or contacts in 6+ years.

Not balding at all, only going white.

Since I'm clean shaven with very short hair, I look quite young, in my 30's still and that's why women in their teens, 20's, etc. still flirt, talk and check me out....but I do love it.


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## bandit.45

CuddleBug said:


> hehehe, my jock itch and excema are rare. Maybe once every few years it affects me.
> 
> Right now as I type, clean cut hand and toe nails, nose hair trimmed. Just common to me now.


Kerosene works really well for jock itch. 

Try it....


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## Faithful Wife

(also maybe we could even stop talking about jock itch because...ew)


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## kristin2349

Raging Jock Itch is a huge turn off, I think I speak for all the ladies.


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## Ikaika

Body hair I notice shows up a lot in TAM as either turn on/off. Genetics allows me to grow a beard, but not chest or back hair. But a full head of hair which I now keep trimmed or I start to look like Einstein.


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## Faithful Wife

Yeah I missed that lucy...that's on my list, too. Like 'em nice and compact.


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## Ikaika

Found when I hit 50 I had/have to trim tiny ear hairs once a week :rofl:


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## Ikaika

Faithful Wife said:


> Yeah I missed that lucy...that's on my list, too. Like 'em nice and compact.



http://youtu.be/zrmeqwk68no


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## Faithful Wife

Yeah skin tags are confusing, because they are so easy to get rid of at the docs office...why don't they?


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## Cleigh

I must not be so fussy. As long as he isn't missing teeth or rotted teeth from drug use, I'm pretty easy. Lol oh that sounds bad. I like a guy with a great personality. I have had all sorts. Skinny, fat, hairy, no hair at all, tats and piercings, muscular and not, perfect teeth, bad teeth, smelly and not. Shy and over confident. Even a guy who wore more make up than me, he was hell goth with really long hair but balding on the top haha if they are good to me I'm happy.
I like guys with hair though. Everywhere. My darling man I'm with is lacking in that department but I love him anyways. It's just a body. Never stays the same and I love him for who he is.


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## Cleigh

Faithful Wife said:


> Yeah skin tags are confusing, because they are so easy to get rid of at the docs office...why don't they?


My man has one on his back. I love playing with it. It's like a third nipple hahaha


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## Holland

Skinny
fat
overly muscular
blonde hair
long hair
more than a couple of tatts
ugly face
bad teeth
slob types that don't dress well
dumb
lazy
poor attitudes about women
bogan types
bogan music lovers

not all physical but all are turn offs, I'm sure there is more I could add


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## CuddleBug

bandit.45 said:


> Kerosene works really well for jock itch.
> 
> Try it....



I have some cream in the bathroom that works really good. Haven't used it in years though, so that's great for me.


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## Faithful Wife

Ok well if it is a free-for-all...not just physical then....

jerks

idiots

red pillers/PUA'rs/MRA'rs

men who think women exist only as ornaments

anti-gay/homophobe

right wing anything

slobs

don't pay their child support

don't know how to f*ck (or kiss)

don't read books (famous John Waters quote: "If you go home with someone and they don't have any books, don't f*ck them.")

aren't kind to animals and children

ignorant

racists

micro-peens

hooked on porn instead of real life

non-boob-men (please give the girls the love they deserve, or get out)

think their car is more important than their looks

burn outs (not saying all people who do drugs are one but, can't handle a burn out)

think they are funny when they aren't......

I could go on but you see my dilemma....not enough time or space to list them all....


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## SecondTime'Round

OK, I started that other thread and have not read any responses here aside from the first one, but here are my responses:

Weak chins
Smiles that show way too much gum
Bad teeth

(Obviously I look at mouths first, can you tell?)

No shoulders
Arms skinnier than mine
Extreme skinniness
Obesity
Really outdated fashion (I'm not a fashionista, but I do not do denim shorts on a man)
No oral hygiene (been there!)
Smells bad (have not really been there, but noting it since I do like cologne on a man)
Not showering at least once a day


Since we've been talking about tattoos, I don't think I'd be attracted to a man that could not disguise tattoos in a suit.

I also do NOT like a man who shaves every single hair on his body (i.e. arms and chest unless chest is really out of control). Trimming down south is respectable. Shaving arms that are not overgrown.....I don't get it and I don't like it.


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## SecondTime'Round

Holland said:


> Skinny
> fat
> overly muscular
> blonde hair
> long hair
> more than a couple of tatts
> ugly face
> bad teeth
> slob types that don't dress well
> dumb
> lazy
> poor attitudes about women
> bogan types
> bogan music lovers
> 
> not all physical but all are turn offs, I'm sure there is more I could add


Googling "bogan"......


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## Healer

lucy999 said:


> bad hygiene
> 
> big, pendulous balls


Lol.


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## Healer

Wow. And I thought I was picky.


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## Faithful Wife

I don't know what the hell that was about, but it is extremely offensive.


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## FizzBomb

Fat - big gut
Skinny
Poor hygiene
Bad breath
Smoker
Feet in thongs or sandals
Horrible turtle looking big toes
While we're on the subject - Camel Toe
Wearing 'Budgie Smugglers' at the beach
Public Nose Picker
Underwear smears
Huge honker
Big bushy brows
Ear hair
Balls that look like they come down to their knees when they take their undies off
Eye dirt - especially green or white 'eye boogies'
Knobby knees
Flat/no bum
Weird legs
Disproportionate torso/leg thing going on
Mustaches of ANY kind - blech!


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## Faithful Wife

So you've just described Frank on Always Sunny in Philadelphia.


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## melw74

FizzBomb said:


> Fat - big gut
> Skinny
> Poor hygiene
> Bad breath
> Smoker
> Feet in thongs or sandals
> Horrible turtle looking big toes
> While we're on the subject - Camel Toe
> Wearing 'Budgie Smugglers' at the beach
> Public Nose Picker
> Underwear smears
> Huge honker
> Big bushy brows
> Ear hair
> Balls that look like they come down to their knees when they take their undies off
> Eye dirt - especially green or white 'eye boogies'
> Knobby knees
> Flat/no bum
> Weird legs
> Disproportionate torso/leg thing going on
> Mustaches of ANY kind - blech!


Turtle looking big toes:rofl:.....

I cant stand.

Weird shaped hands.
Dirty fingers nails.
Moustaches and beards (especially with food in them YUCK).
Bad breath.
B.O
Picking noses.
biting nails and toe nails.... I know a guy that does the latter Boke.
dandruff.


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## Horizon

One of my older brothers stayed with me after Xmas. He came in to use the shower while I was shaving. Then I noticed he was minus his bush. He's nearly 60! I played it cool and said 'what's going on with that?' He said that his 30 year old Hungarian gf loved it. My bro is in great shape for his age, cut, olive skin etc. Physically you wouldn't think he or his twin were related to me. In any case it still looked weird. Bastards hung as well; they both are - guess I'm a throwback.


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## Horizon

Wow, I've got a big sack. Great! it doesn't count for sh*t.


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## Brigit

staarz21 said:


> So, obviously I am bouncing this off of the physical appearance thread in the Men's clubhouse. Some of it got me thinking if men and women find the same things unattractive. When reading the responses over there, I noticed that I have some similar turn offs toward men - but I also had some (like tattoos) that were not a bother for me.
> 
> *What are your turn-offs about a man's body that determine whether or not you are sexually attracted to him? *
> 
> Physical attributes only please. I know that we look for good personalities....but physically what are we looking to find ladies?
> 
> 
> My turn offs:
> 
> Being too skinny
> Overweight
> Smoking
> Bad teeth/breath
> A belly that looks pregnant (beer belly?)
> A belly that hangs over the pants
> Mustaches - ugh
> Long hair on head
> Not trimmed down below. Seriously, I've seen a forest or two.
> Unibrows
> Hair on the back!!!!
> Nasty feet/toenails - come on guys, take care of the feet!
> Pierced ears, nose, eyebrows, etc.
> 
> Men don't have to be built, muscle definition helps...a lot....but it's not a turn off it he doesn't have it. I think if my H got some muscle definition, he would have to try and pry me off of him like that thing from Aliens....rawr.


LOL! Cool post 

My physical turn-off's RE: Male Appearance:

Overweight 
Small hands
Bad teeth
Bad smell
Bad skin


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## SecondTime'Round

Just saw on GMA that apparently "dad bods" are trending. Who knew.

What is the Dad Bod? America's leading expert explains.


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## EllisRedding

Well, my wife did tell me yesterday that I am that sexy husband all the other wives look at, guess I am doing something right, so that was pretty cool :smthumbup:

I am pretty big into personal hygiene so hopefully that is high on my wife's list!


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## Runs like Dog

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't know what the hell that was about, but it is extremely offensive.


Being on fire is a pretty big turnoff.


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## Anonymous07

Overweight

Bad/missing teeth

tattoos/piercings

Poor hygiene (ie: B.O., bad breath, stinky feet)

Too short (under 5'6")

Smoking(yuck!)

Mustaches, goatees, and beards(scruffy is good though)


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## Pluto2

My biggest turn off is when a guy opens his mouth and ignorance dribbles out.


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## LonelyinLove

I am much less turned off by physical things then I am a weak, beta, girly man.

That is the ultimate turnoff.


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## Nomorebeans

I can't get past bad teeth. That's the biggest turn-off. If they're just not very straight, but otherwise reasonably well-taken-care-of, that's fine. But if it's clear the guy doesn't give a hoot about oral hygiene, that's a deal breaker.

Not a fan of tattoos, but I can deal with a few discreet ones, just as long as he hasn't allowed himself to become The Illustrated Man.

Not big on piercings, either - not even just ears - because I'm 50 and that's for much younger guys, if at all.

I'm tall-ish - 5'6" - and thin, but curvy (the hips don't lie). So a very small-framed, pencil-thin man wouldn't be the first one I might notice in a room full of men.


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## staarz21

So I'm seeing the majority of us very much dislike the mustache! We are a military family and we live on base.....EVERY March is mustache March. For an entire month I have to see almost every guy with just a mustache...it's like a nightmare! 

There is also "no shave" November when they grow the mustaches again (because they can't have full on beards in the military). However, my husband doesn't participate in this one - thank gawd!


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## melw74

Runs like Dog said:


> Being on fire is a pretty big turnoff.


Somebody better remind me never to do that then:scratchhead:


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## Faithful Wife

I'm guessing the point of that was something like "omg I'm so unattractive according to this thread I might as well light myself on fire"? 

Which I find irritating and insulting. Like if we talk about this stuff, we have to worry about crushing some man's ego, yet we are all very much aware that many men value our appearance far higher than our souls. But turn it around and talk about how WE value a man's appearance, and BOOM, he can't even handle the thought of it and we're supposed to feel guilty about how we feel. Good old double standards at work again. 

Part of what causes this is the mis-information campaign men tell themselves, which is: Women don't care as much about looks as men do.


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## GTdad

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm guessing the point of that was something like "omg I'm so unattractive according to this thread I might as well light myself on fire"?
> 
> Which I find irritating and insulting. Like if we talk about this stuff, we have to worry about crushing some man's ego, yet we are all very much aware that many men value our appearance far higher than our souls. But turn it around and talk about how WE value a man's appearance, and BOOM, he can't even handle the thought of it and we're supposed to feel guilty about how we feel. Good old double standards at work again.
> 
> Part of what causes this is the mis-information campaign men tell themselves, which is: Women don't care as much about looks as men do.


It was pretty clear from another thread, and your MO in general, that you were dying to be able to post something like this. So I'm glad RWD obliged, however vaguely.


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## Faithful Wife

I'm glad, too! The double standard pisses me off, and I just want men to realize that we DO value the physical and stop telling each other lies about it.


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## lucy999

I'll be honest. I laughed my arse off at RWD's photo. I took it to mean, Sheesh, I can't win. Might as well set myself on fire.

Unless and until he comes back, we'll never know.


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## melw74

lucy999 said:


> I'll be honest. I laughed my arse off at RWD's photo. I took it to mean, Sheesh, I can't win. Might as well set myself on fire.
> 
> Unless and until he comes back, we'll never know.


I hope to god hes not trying it.....


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## Ikaika

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm glad, too! The double standard pisses me off, and I just want men to realize that we DO value the physical and stop telling each other lies about it.


And, wouldn't you know that physical type appears to differ for women, except where it pertains to basic "take care of yourself kind of thing". Seems pretty human to me. I didn't see anyone posting pics of some hunk that they had to have, just ones where they suggest:

Brush and floss your teeth
take a shower and clean between your toes
Keep your nails and hair clipped
etc... 

Now get off my lawn (pulling my plaid pants up over my bellybutton)


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## Faithful Wife

Yes, and so we should go over to the thread in mens and post pictures of women hanging themselves to make sure they understand how much it hurts our feelings to be less than the perfection they are seeking, right?


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## Faithful Wife

Ikaika said:


> And, wouldn't you know that physical type appears to differ for women, except where it pertains to basic "take care of yourself kind of thing". Seems pretty human to me. I didn't see anyone posting pics of some hunk that they had to have, just ones where they suggest:
> 
> Brush and floss your teeth
> take a shower and clean between your toes
> Keep your nails and hair clipped
> etc...
> 
> Now get off my lawn (pulling my plaid pants up over my bellybutton)


But posting pictures of dudes we think are hot was not the topic....IF that was the topic, trust me that we will post many many HUNK pictures of a level of physical perfection that most men cannot reach. Would you like us to do that? We'd be happy to.


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## GTdad

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm glad, too! The double standard pisses me off, and I just want men to realize that we DO value the physical and stop telling each other lies about it.


I think you should have waited for a better example. Your trigger finger was too itchy.


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## lucy999

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, and so we should go over to the thread in mens and post pictures of women hanging themselves to make sure they understand how much it hurts our feelings to be less than the perfection they are seeking, right?


Oh come on FW! Lighten up.Sometimes there is no super deep meaning in something. Sometimes it's nice to just roll with the punches and laugh.


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## Faithful Wife

GTDad...I'm not trying to win any points...I feel the way I feel and would have posted a thread like this myself if I felt like it....starz posted this one at a good time. I don't have a trigger finger, I'm full on open double barrels all the time, doncha get that by now?


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## Faithful Wife

lucy999 said:


> Oh come on FW! Lighten up.Sometimes there is no super deep meaning in something. Sometimes it's nice to just roll with the punches and laugh.


Yes, I'm certainly laughing. At the men who think women don't care about the physical.


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## Ikaika

Faithful Wife said:


> But posting pictures of dudes we think are hot was not the topic....IF that was the topic, trust me that we will post many many HUNK pictures of a level of physical perfection that most men cannot reach. Would you like us to do that? We'd be happy to.


I don't have a problem. You took my statement wrong. I was not trying to suggest anything other than supporting the idea that humans are humans, we all have likes and dislikes, I'm perfectly fine with woman posting their list, I'm certainly not offended at all. Plus, I got myself in trouble already in an earlier thread when I made reference to my likes with pic post (with a female poster), but `a `ole pilikia. 

But, I assume we all like our mates to at least have some basic hygiene. That is all.


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## lucy999

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, I'm certainly laughing. At the men who think women don't care about the physical.


Touche.


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## GettingIt_2

I have to admit that I don't have a list of physical tuns offs (beyond the obvious like bad hygiene, although I'd consider that a bad habit more than a physical attribute that can't be changed.)

For me it sort of depends on the whole package. So where I might find, say, a large nose unattractive on one man's face, I might think the same nose looks powerful and noble on another's. I've seen dudes with shaggy hair that makes me go ewwww, but I've seen dudes with shaggy hair that I thought looked sexy because of their hair. 

Same with height--I've met some men of less than average height, and that aspect of their physicality didn't diminish their attractiveness for me at all. 

Same with tattoos and piercings. 

How a man carries himself, takes care of himself, and how he's "put together" as a whole is usually what attracts me, rather than the absence of any one attribute that I always find objectionable.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, I'm certainly laughing. At the men who think women don't care about the physical.


And I don't need to set myself on fire...I'm already hot


----------



## Faithful Wife

Longer hair on men is a tough one....sometimes I love it, sometimes bleah.

My H has beautiful thick wavy hair, but it is kept very short - so short it wouldn't be obvious how wavy and thick it is. 

BUT...when he was younger, in the late 80's, he had the most B*TCHIN' mullet ever! I saw pictures and he looked like someone in a hair band. I wish I could have run my fingers through it, it looked amazing. He said he really loved having long hair for a short while, it made him feel like a lion with a mane.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> And I don't need to set myself on fire...I'm already hot


Yes, yes you are.


----------



## Ikaika

samyeagar said:


> And I don't need to set myself on fire...I'm already hot


I'm more realistic... at 50 and marching on the best is behind me, literally, that is what my wife thinks is my greatest *ass*et.


----------



## Anonymous07

Faithful Wife said:


> Longer hair on men is a tough one....sometimes I love it, sometimes bleah.


Forgot about that one. Long hair on a guy is a turn off for me. Not interested.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ikaika said:


> I'm more realistic... at 50 and marching on the best is behind me, literally, that is what my wife thinks is my greatest *ass*et.


My hubby is 52 and he's got a great *ass*et, too. It sometimes lights ME on fire.


----------



## Ikaika

Faithful Wife said:


> My hubby is 52 and he's got a great *ass*et, too. It sometimes lights ME on fire.


I do all I can to fight against father time, good health and hygiene are neither easy (workout daily) or cheap (good food is expensive, damn it). I can't change my genetics but one thing about getting older, you somehow don't worry about silly stuff like that any longer. I'm just your ordinary guy, but I'm very comfortable with me.  May not be a turn on or turn off issue, but my wife is very comfortable with me and I with her.


----------



## Faithful Wife

That's awesome. And as I said in my first response on this thread, I don't look at any man and evaluate him as hot or not unless I'm actually dating. Otherwise people are people and I don't objectify them that way....I barely even notice them because I'm so in love with my hubby.

He and I being strongly attracted to each other is all that matters to me. (And all the things I've listed on this thread, are basically a description of him...or rather, he lacks all of the traits I said I don't like).


----------



## WandaJ

Generally slopiness - sloppy clothes, sloppy greasy hair, sloppy attitude towards life. 

Tattoos
Obese

Smoking

That's on physical side. low inteligence and too "boyish" for his age are turn offs too


----------



## WandaJ

Frankly, I don't know why some women are so furious about the thread in mens section. Most of the men said that with age the look matters less for the, they can accept extra pound, if they get companionship, intelligence, humor. Etc. some others said they like in othe light side. Nobody was trying to be cruel, they were just answering the question. And even if one or two said something that hurt someone's feelings, so what? we are going now to scream at all of them? How about all those wiht very positive comments? There were plenty.


----------



## TheCuriousWife

CuddleBug said:


> What turns off Mrs.CuddleBug about me:
> 
> - not always trimming minor nose hair
> - not always cutting hand and toe nails
> - not wearing deodorant every day, even on my days off work
> - not brushing and dental flossing my teeth every day
> 
> That's about it. So I wear deodorant on my non working days, always trim my minor nose hair and I make sure my hands toe nails are cut. I usually brush my teeth every day but once in a while.....heh.
> 
> And she likes it when I have a minor beard because its soft on her cheeks or I'm very clean shaven, just not in between.
> 
> I've never been fat and with a gut.


CuddleBug! Deodorant and teeth brushing are a must for every. single. day!


----------



## TheCuriousWife

My list seems pretty common:

Overweight
Smoking
Mustaches 
Long hair on head / or balding hair
Hairy backs or chests
Nasty feet/toenails
Piercing or tattoos
Any hint of bad hygiene (Must shower daily, brush teeth, take general care of self) 

I'm pretty flexible on actual appearance. Hair color, eye color, height, etc. Of course I love tall, dark, handsome, and buff. But I've also been attracted to nerdy, short, blonde, etc. 

Personality and cleanliness are my biggest factors.


----------



## Wolf1974

Read all 7 pages. Didn't see anything about bags under the eyes. Where are we on that one

It's the one and only thing on my I'm a bit self conscious about


----------



## Faithful Wife

No problem with bags under eyes for me. 

wanda...along those lines, I'd like to say that I feel the majority of men here are really great, have deep love and attraction for their wives, and are not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, on that thread or any other thread here.


----------



## Holland

Bags under eyes don't bother me at all


----------



## frusdil

Wolf1974 said:


> Read all 7 pages. Didn't see anything about bags under the eyes. Where are we on that one


Wouldn't be an issue for me 

I don't really have a 'list' but things that turn me off would be bad hygiene, ear and nose hair that's not maintained.

I agree with FW too, we have some lovely men who post here, and I really believe that they weren't meaning to be cruel, they were simply being honest - which is what the point of the post was to start with. Though it's a shame that most of them wouldn't be attracted to me going by what they said - I have some extra *cough* curves, lol. I wiggle where I shouldn't and have dimples in a few places 

On the plus side, I have legs that go forever and long, soft shiny hair so maybe they would be


----------



## lucy999

I think the thread here and the thread in the Men's Club are blatantly honest. And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean come on. I listed pendulous balls as a turn-off. That's pretty damn honest.


----------



## kristin2349

lucy999 said:


> I think the thread here and the thread in the Men's Club are blatantly honest. And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean come on. I listed pendulous balls as a turn-off. That's pretty damn honest.


Yep, that is honest and it is a turn off. And [email protected], you have to get pretty far into the game to find out a guy is sporting a set


----------



## Brigit

lucy999 said:


> I think the thread here and the thread in the Men's Club are blatantly honest. And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean come on. I listed pendulous balls as a turn-off. That's pretty damn honest.


I thought that was the best part of this thread.


----------



## lucy999

Whythankyouverymuch. I think this whole thread is great.


----------



## Brigit

lucy999 said:


> Whythankyouverymuch. I think this whole thread is great.


It was freaking hilarious and much needed. Hugs.

The Men in the Men's Clubhouse have the right to verbalize their opinions. It's their place to say what they feel like saying without having to worry about being scolded. If I see a thread that I know may trigger me I shouldn't read it. Men like what they like and if I don't fit the ideal description then I need to find ways to deal with it.


----------



## joannacroc

Poor hygiene
Dirty anything (fingernails, feet)
Circus fat
Heroine chic skinny
Predator mustaches
Duck dynasty beards 
Girly voice
Facial piercings
Fashionistas
Stained or dirty clothing
Message Ts or brand worshippers (big brand names blazoned across all clothing)
Whatever the male equivalent of bi£%hy resting face is.
I seem to be in the minority, but I actually love tattoos if they are artfully done but have never dated anyone with one. I don't have one.

If it's the right guy, then I think a lot of imperfections become irrelevant. I think any meanness at all kind of chips away at your attractiveness even if you're an Adonis.


----------



## joannacroc

Anyone with similar coloring to me.


----------



## Jellybeans

That lumberjack hipster beard trend now (especially if it's super long - ew - I always imagine oral sex, yuck)... bad teeth, poor hygiene, bad body odor.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Jellybeans, you've just described every white dude in Portland between 18 and 30.


----------



## Faithful Wife

joannacroc said:


> Anyone with similar coloring to me.


This is interesting. I have a gf who has blue eyes and she just can't get with a blue eyed guy...she says she feels there's something incestuous about it, like it is her brother. 

And I have another guy friend who is Asian who won't date other Asians. Sadly I think this is due to self-loathing.

What does it mean for you, joannacroc?


----------



## kristin2349

Faithful Wife said:


> Jellybeans, you've just described every white dude in Portland between 18 and 30.


Brooklyn too, and why do they all wear wool beanies? Even in the summer, gross.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ugh, wool beanies!!! Take them away!


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Faithful Wife said:


> This is interesting. I have a gf who has blue eyes and she just can't get with a blue eyed guy...she says she feels there's something incestuous about it, like it is her brother.
> 
> And I have another guy friend who is Asian who won't date other Asians. Sadly I think this is due to self-loathing.
> 
> What does it mean for you, joannacroc?


I have an AA male friend who refuses to date AA women. His Irish girlfriend could not get any more white if she dipped herself in bleach.


----------



## Runs like Dog

the question you have to ask yourself is how ugly does a rich man have to be to lose the trophy wife vs how ugly does a rich woman have to be to lose her boy-toy? In the case of the rich man there's no known ugly limit.


----------



## always_alone

Guys who no matter how how ugly, fat, cruel or selfish keep convincing themselves they have a higher sexual market value than any woman.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Runs like Dog said:


> the question you have to ask yourself is how ugly does a rich man have to be to lose the trophy wife vs how ugly does a rich woman have to be to lose her boy-toy? In the case of the rich man there's no known ugly limit.


:scratchhead:

I have no idea what's up with you, dude.


----------



## Runs like Dog

turn offs are contextual, that's what.


----------



## staarz21

Runs like Dog said:


> the question you have to ask yourself is how ugly does a rich man have to be to lose the trophy wife vs how ugly does a rich woman have to be to lose her boy-toy? In the case of the rich man there's no known ugly limit.


*sigh*

You're hanging around the WRONG women. Of course there are gold diggers out there! There are men that mooch off women as well. Times are a changin'!!! It's not just women mooching anymore! 

Besides, gold diggers are the minority of women. If you think that most women are looking for an ugly, rich dude...you're dead wrong. 

We want to be physically attracted to our men. Hell, the only reason I approached my H is because I thought I was going to have an O just looking at the man...Then I saw him naked......Oh mah gawd....and he makes 56k a year. It was his looks and his penis that roped me, not his bank account. Obviously the personality clicking was there as well, which was nice.  We've had our problems, but I still look at him and think he's so gorgeous. 

I am not sure why some guys think that the majority of women want to use them for money. Maybe they've been burned? Plenty of women are okay not being with someone who makes a ton of money. Many of the women are out there working too.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dog - Um....yeah.....and.....? 

We all have preferences.


----------



## Faithful Wife

staarz21 said:


> Besides, gold diggers are the minority of women. If you think that most women are looking for an ugly, rich dude...you're dead wrong.
> 
> We want to be physically attracted to our men.


Most guys who believe this have choked down a red pill. There's this whole campaign they run around promoting, about how women only have value between 16 and 28, after that they are over the hill and have zero market value.

Meanwhile, they tell themselves and each other, men increase in value as they age, because women just want money anyway...they tell each other we don't care about looks.

Gee, how convenient is that? Women have no value once their looks are gone at the ancient age of 28, and men gain value as they gain money so they are the most attractive at all at age 50 or so. This is why so many model hot 28 year old women want to be with fat bald 50 year old....because she simply doesn't even notice his physical appearance while she's spending all that money. Of course he's going to dump her next year anyway because her beauty will expire at 28 years and 364 days.

Of course, women know better. We will just go on being attracted to hot men of all ages and we will just go on being our gorgeous selves at all ages and hopefully we'll all get some good sex along with it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Here's a great example of a red pill swallower going on and on about how ugly women are when they hit that wall (at 30)...and all the things that make her even uglier....and how much fun he has comparing pictures of her in high school compared to her at 40+....how much does anyone want to bet this dude looks like Homer Simpson?

The Wall |


----------



## lucy999

Don't get me started on wool caps in summer ugh. Ridiculous. can you imagine the stank? ?!!


----------



## staarz21

Faithful Wife said:


> Most guys who believe this have choked down a red pill. There's this whole campaign they run around promoting, about how women only have value between 16 and 28, after that they are over the hill and have zero market value.
> 
> Meanwhile, they tell themselves and each other, men increase in value as they age, because women just want money anyway...they tell each other we don't care about looks.
> 
> Gee, how convenient is that? Women have no value once their looks are gone at the ancient age of 28, and men gain value as they gain money so they are the most attractive at all at age 50 or so. This is why so many model hot 28 year old women want to be with fat bald 50 year old....because she simply doesn't even notice his physical appearance while she's spending all that money. Of course he's going to dump her next year anyway because her beauty will expire at 28 years and 364 days.
> 
> Of course, women know better. We will just go on being attracted to hot men of all ages and we will just go on being our gorgeous selves at all ages and hopefully we'll all get some good sex along with it.


Well damn. I went way over the hill 3 years ago lol. I honestly feel better at 31 than I did at 21 though. In the last 2 years, I've become more confident and that has helped me in so many ways!


----------



## staarz21

Faithful Wife said:


> Here's a great example of a red pill swallower going on and on about how ugly women are when they hit that wall (at 30)...and all the things that make her even uglier....and how much fun he has comparing pictures of her in high school compared to her at 40+....how much does anyone want to bet this dude looks like Homer Simpson?
> 
> The Wall |


I had no idea sites like this existed. How sheltered am I? That's disgusting. I'm willing to bet that guy (and the guys in the comment section) are not that attractive themselves! 

I guess that sums it up then....I'm an old hag! Lol :rofl:


----------



## WandaJ

staarz21 said:


> Well damn. I went way over the hill 3 years ago lol. I honestly feel better at 31 than I did at 21 though. In the last 2 years, I've become more confident and that has helped me in so many ways!


wait until you hit forty !


----------



## WandaJ

Faithful Wife said:


> Here's a great example of a red pill swallower going on and on about how ugly women are when they hit that wall (at 30)...and all the things that make her even uglier....and how much fun he has comparing pictures of her in high school compared to her at 40+....how much does anyone want to bet this dude looks like Homer Simpson?
> 
> The Wall |


But why do you care so much about some idiot guys? they always existed, and will. And they are not the guys you would be interested in anyway, so screw them!


----------



## staarz21

WandaJ said:


> wait until you hit forty !


I think I'm looking forward to it. I feel like it just keeps getting better every year! I hope I'm not too optimistic there!


----------



## kristin2349

WandaJ said:


> But why do you care so much about some idiot guys? they always existed, and will. And they are not the guys you would be interested in anyway, so screw them!


Oh Wanda, I think it is so cute that the guys we all turned down in high school are trolling FB hoping we got ugly:rofl:


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> Most guys who believe this have choked down a red pill. There's this whole campaign they run around promoting, about how women only have value between 16 and 28, after that they are over the hill and have zero market value.
> 
> Meanwhile, they tell themselves and each other, men increase in value as they age, because women just want money anyway...they tell each other we don't care about looks.
> 
> Gee, how convenient is that? Women have no value once their looks are gone at the ancient age of 28, and men gain value as they gain money so they are the most attractive at all at age 50 or so. This is why so many model hot 28 year old women want to be with fat bald 50 year old....because she simply doesn't even notice his physical appearance while she's spending all that money. Of course he's going to dump her next year anyway because her beauty will expire at 28 years and 364 days.
> 
> Of course, women know better. We will just go on being attracted to hot men of all ages and we will just go on being our gorgeous selves at all ages and hopefully we'll all get some good sex along with it.


Just to add to the myth breaking here. Mrs. Conan just attracted some admiration from our young hotel clerk. He can't be more than 28. She also got many invitations from men at her gym. She is 55 and quite sexually attractive, not just to me.

Older women can be, and often are, unbelievably sexy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

WandaJ said:


> But why do you care so much about some idiot guys? they always existed, and will. And they are not the guys you would be interested in anyway, so screw them!


Wanda...I care because these guys promote rape, and they get away with spreading that message in books, bootcamps and websites all over the world. I'm a vigilante against this message, and ain't no amount of shaming (thanks for that by the way) gonna stop me from SHOUTING about how HORRIBLE it is.

Messages like the one Dog left are just an offshoot of the main message, which is that women should shut up and let whoever wants to f*ck them, and they should be grateful for it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

staarz21 said:


> I had no idea sites like this existed. How sheltered am I? That's disgusting. I'm willing to bet that guy (and the guys in the comment section) are not that attractive themselves!
> 
> I guess that sums it up then....I'm an old hag! Lol :rofl:


The fact that you didn't know they existed is the REASON I'm going to keep calling out that bullsh*t....so women will be INFORMED of what these idiots are really saying.

There are literally hundreds of blogs just like that one, all saying the same thing.


----------



## Dollystanford

Facial hair
Bad teeth
Bald spots (if you're going bald shave it off)
Ponytails (actually long hair in general)
Bald spots with ponytails
B*tchtits
Beer bellies
Small penis


----------



## WandaJ

Faithful Wife said:


> Wanda...I care because these guys promote rape, and they get away with spreading that message in books, bootcamps and websites all over the world. I'm a vigilante against this message, and ain't no amount of shaming (thanks for that by the way) gonna stop me from SHOUTING about how HORRIBLE it is.
> 
> Messages like the one Dog left are just an offshoot of the main message, which is that women should shut up and let whoever wants to f*ck them, and they should be grateful for it.


But the thing is people like this always existed, they are called psychopats. you will never clearn the Earth from them, and they are not representative of the average, norman man. How big percentage of men sign up to this? 1%? I bet almost all of us here on TAM had never heard of them, until you started bringing them up. There are hundreds of ****uu website and group all over the internet, you will find something for every niche, good or bad.


----------



## Faithful Wife

WandaJ said:


> But the thing is people like this always existed, they are called psychopats. you will never clearn the Earth from them, and they are not representative of the average, norman man. How big percentage of men sign up to this? 1%? *I bet almost all of us here on TAM had never heard of them, until you started bringing them up*. There are hundreds of ****uu website and group all over the internet, you will find something for every niche, good or bad.


Wanda, perhaps you don't know this but the author of one of the biggest red pill books gleaned his information right her at TAM because he was a regular poster, and he even put a big ol' "thanks TAM!" in the acknowledgement of his book. The book is Married Man Sex Life Primer and the author is Athol Kay. He was literally worshipped here after writing the book.

You may be right that some of the women here haven't heard of this crap until I bring it up....THAT'S exactly why I do bring it up. Women need to know that men are reading this crap. And a decent number of men here DO read that crap and defend it all the time.

I wish it was just pyschopaths reading it wanda....but it isn't. Just about every man who does a search on "how to have sex with more women" finds the red pill. You are far underestimating it's reach. Which is yet another reason I am raising awareness about it.

Not all mens self improvement books are red pill, only some of them, and they are the only ones I have a problem with.


----------



## Ikaika

What the hell is red pill? I know the blue pill is for guys who can't raise their flag without it, but red pill, what does that do? Clueless in the tropics.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Here's a lovely gem of a blog post by Athol about this same topic of women having no sex rank after hitting their wall....just one of hundreds of offensive things he's written.

Relative vs Absolute Sex Rank and the Forty-Year-Old Wife | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ikaika said:


> What the hell is red pill? I know the blue pill is for guys who can't raise their flag without it, but red pill, what does that do? Clueless in the tropics.


Because you are sweet, I don't even want you to know...

I want to educate women about it so they will know what it means if a guy starts going all red pill on her...but I don't want to tell men who don't already know about it...you're pure! Stay that way!

Instead, tell me how beautiful it is in Hawaii right now?!!? :smthumbup:


----------



## Dollystanford

Lol 'oh sh*t I could lose him to a 20 year old'
In his dreams darling
Or his blog


----------



## Healer

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm guessing the point of that was something like "omg I'm so unattractive according to this thread I might as well light myself on fire"?
> 
> Which I find irritating and insulting. Like if we talk about this stuff, we have to worry about crushing some man's ego, yet we are all very much aware that many men value our appearance far higher than our souls. But turn it around and talk about how WE value a man's appearance, and BOOM, he can't even handle the thought of it and we're supposed to feel guilty about how we feel. Good old double standards at work again.
> 
> Part of what causes this is the mis-information campaign men tell themselves, which is: Women don't care as much about looks as men do.


Actually after reading this thread it seems women care even more about appearance than men!


----------



## Faithful Wife

Relative Sex Rank vs True Sex Rank | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life

Here's another great one....

A quote from the beginning of the article:

*"I got asked a question recently that started along the lines of, “If a forty-year-old woman is a 9 and…”

…and let me stop you right there. There are no forty-year-old-women that are Sex Rank 9. Not a one. Nope not even her, or her, or whoever you think of. Just stop trying."*

(end quote)

But of course you see, men at age 40 have just hit their peak.

According to the 40 year old male author.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Healer said:


> Actually after reading this thread it seems women care even more about appearance than men!


Thank you for noticing what has always been true but what we weren't able to say out loud until now!


----------



## Ikaika

I'm assuming men must have a sex rank? I play the bass (recreation), my wife thinks I learned how to play back in HS to pick up ladies. I told her if I wanted to do that I would learned the guitar, drums, sing or anything else.

Sex ranking of band members

Lead singer
Lead guitar
Drummer
Rhythm guitar
Any horn instrument 
Keyboard 
Pyrotechnics crew
Lighting crew
Sound engineers 
Roadies
Bass player (who? There, back there standing next to the drummer)

:rofl:


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ha ha! Cute. I have a joke:

What do you call a drummer with no girlfriend?

Homeless.

(bah dum bum chsssh!)

So you may be back there standing next to him, but chances are you at least have an apartment.


----------



## Ikaika

A few of us get to the front:

http://youtu.be/mTqRvkjAmhQ

And yes, some of the ladies shred on the bass, this young lady can groove:

http://youtu.be/u_l8t8yZfAk


----------



## lucy999

Dollystanford said:


> B*tchtits


 This is one I've never heard. I'm SO using this.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I actually love bass....can't have no funk without bass.


----------



## tonedef

I must have low standards lol. I don't like bad teeth/breath or anything bad hygiene related but there are so many things I can look past if the mind and soul is beautiful, same taste in music and common interests. Those completely outweigh too big or too skinny, short, tall, long hair or short hair. So many people put way too much emphasis on physical looks. I know that is what catches somebody but that shouldn't be a reason to keep somebody.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Somanylemons

For me its . . .

A boring personality (this is the biggest turn off for me)
Hugely obese
Bad personal hygiene 
Men who wax. I like my men hairy. 
Comb overs. Bald is sexy. A comb over is not. 

That's about it really.


----------



## Faithful Wife

tonedef said:


> I know that is what catches somebody but that shouldn't be a reason to keep somebody.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hear ya, but I'm shallow and enjoy how HOT my husband is, and it is a large part of why I'm keeping him. However, he has to have all the other things I like and not the thing I hate, looks alone isn't enough. But they are necessary. For me, not for everyone maybe, but for me.


----------



## Ikaika

Faithful Wife said:


> I actually love bass....can't have no funk without bass.



Yea, but a bunch of fifty year olds playing:

http://youtu.be/QYHxGBH6o4M

I converted our spare bedroom into a music/recording studio... Acoustic walls, updated the electrical panel to run enough juice in there... Oh yea in the corner is my wife's crafts table 

I had to add a rider on our homeowners insurance policy to cover the equipment.


----------



## staarz21

Faithful Wife said:


> Relative Sex Rank vs True Sex Rank | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life
> 
> Here's another great one....
> 
> A quote from the beginning of the article:
> 
> *"I got asked a question recently that started along the lines of, “If a forty-year-old woman is a 9 and…”
> 
> …and let me stop you right there. There are no forty-year-old-women that are Sex Rank 9. Not a one. Nope not even her, or her, or whoever you think of. Just stop trying."*
> 
> (end quote)
> 
> But of course you see, men at age 40 have just hit their peak.
> 
> According to the 40 year old male author.



 

I wonder how that table looks when he turns it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Oh god how I love that song...


----------



## Faithful Wife

My all time fave funk song though is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4nOHdUntyM


----------



## Brigit

Faithful Wife said:


> Relative Sex Rank vs True Sex Rank | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life
> 
> Here's another great one....
> 
> A quote from the beginning of the article:
> 
> *"I got asked a question recently that started along the lines of, “If a forty-year-old woman is a 9 and…”
> 
> …and let me stop you right there. There are no forty-year-old-women that are Sex Rank 9. Not a one. Nope not even her, or her, or whoever you think of. Just stop trying."*
> 
> (end quote)
> 
> But of course you see, men at age 40 have just hit their peak.
> 
> According to the 40 year old male author.


This is the crap that makes me upset. So according to the author no woman in their 40's could have a "sex rank" of nine. Who made up the sex rank? 

I want to get to the point when I hear this sh*t and not care. Right now I still care. Yuck.


----------



## lucy999

Faithful Wife said:


> My all time fave funk song though is...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4nOHdUntyM


YES! Ever see that scene in Slums of Beverly Hills with Natasha Lyonne and Marissa Tomei dancing with the BOB? I can't hear this song ever again w/out thinking of that scene.  Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.


----------



## Ikaika

Brigit said:


> This is the crap that makes me upset. So according to the author no woman in their 40's could have a "sex rank" of nine. Who made up the sex rank?
> 
> 
> 
> I want to get to the point when I hear this sh*t and not care. Right now I still care. Yuck.



The key phrase "it was made up..." Made up in someone's head. My wife is 52 and damn hot, hot I tell you, hot.


----------



## Wolf1974

Brigit said:


> This is the crap that makes me upset. So according to the author no woman in their 40's could have a "sex rank" of nine. Who made up the sex rank?
> 
> I want to get to the point when I hear this sh*t and not care. Right now I still care. Yuck.


OR


Just listen to us men who don't agree with that and state otherwise 

:smthumbup:

I would agree with this list

Especially Elisabeth Hurley
Jennifer Anniston 
Demi Moore

8 Celebrities Over 40 Who Look Better with Age | Fox News Magazine


----------



## staarz21

Brigit said:


> This is the crap that makes me upset. So according to the author no woman in their 40's could have a "sex rank" of nine. Who made up the sex rank?
> 
> I want to get to the point when I hear this sh*t and not care. Right now I still care. Yuck.


I hear it and don't care. Why? Because I know for a fact that most of those men in their 40's and 50's (especially with those attitudes) could NOT get a woman in their 20s. (please note I didn't say all. For those men here who ended up with someone much younger for the long run - it's probably because you're not an @sshole!). 

If and when they could grab a woman 20 years their junior, it will likely be because she is after his money. In which case, they deserve each other. 

The likelihood of that being successful for your average man is very much slim to none. The same as it would be for a woman. 

We ALL age. Many of us just don't want to - but it's going to happen anyway. Do we look better when we're younger...yeah sometimes. But experience brings confidence and with confidence comes something kind of fierce. Women who are more confident are a heck of a lot better than some insecure early 20s gal. I know. I was so insecure until about 2-3 years ago. I woke the hell up. I started to enjoy my life and enjoying it I am!!! 

My H and i have better sex now! I mean it's...WOW...out of this world good. It was good before, but so much better now that I'm not worried about anything! 

I don't put up with BS from people trying to guilt me into stuff. Nope. Ain't going to happen. If you want something from me...ask. I don't play games! 

And I like my life MUCH better this way.


----------



## Brigit

Ikaika said:


> The key phrase "it was made up..." Made up in someone's head. My wife is 52 and damn hot, hot I tell you, hot.


Yep. It was "made up" probably by someone who didn't get laid much in HS and College. Because someone who did get laid a lot wouldn't be thinking about "female sex rank" he'd be thinking about eating a sandwich and taking nap from all the action he's still probably getting.


----------



## Brigit

staarz21 said:


> I hear it and don't care. Why? Because I know for a fact that most of those men in their 40's and 50's (especially with those attitudes) could NOT get a woman in their 20s. (please note I didn't say all. For those men here who ended up with someone much younger for the long run - it's probably because you're not an @sshole!).
> 
> If and when they could grab a woman 20 years their junior, it will likely be because she is after his money. In which case, they deserve each other.


I hear you. I've always been so insecure about myself. I'm trying to change my way of thinking.


----------



## staarz21

So, I googled the author of MMSLP in google images. Athol is delusional if he thinks his sex rank is high.


----------



## *MiMi*

Physical turnoffs? Hardly any. Hygienic issues are what comes to mind. My hangups would probably revolve more around mannerisms and disposition.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

staarz21 said:


> So, I googled the author of MMSLP in google images. Athol is delusional if he thinks his sex rank is high.


Interesting. What is also a little amusing is that his wife says, in an interview, that one way she stays connected to him is by cutting his hair. I'm just wondering on which part of his body....?


----------



## Ikaika

staarz21 said:


> So, I googled the author of MMSLP in google images. Athol is delusional if he thinks his sex rank is high.



I run into the negative numbers, the classic beauty and the beast tale for me


----------



## southbound

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm guessing the point of that was something like "omg I'm so unattractive according to this thread I might as well light myself on fire"?


True. If I went by this thread, I guess I'd go shave my mustache right now, but I've had it since I was a teen, so I guess I'll keep it. I guess there are some more things that I might change too, but you know what, I am what I am. I totally get the bad breath and stinky bodies; who'd want that in anybody?

This thread just conforms that everyone has opinions and likes and dislikes, just like with everything else. One woman might throw up over a mustache while one feels they are attractive. I'm just going to be myself and not worry a lot about it. Heck, if Tom Selleck cared about what was written in this thread, I guess he's make some changes, but I doubt he's worried.


----------



## staarz21

Ikaika said:


> I run into the negative numbers, the classic beauty and the beast tale for me


I am in the negative too! =P I highly doubt you are the beast! Too hard on yourself!! 

I just don't think that man has a right to be judging anyone.


----------



## always_alone

Ikaika said:


> Sex ranking of band members
> 
> Lead singer
> Lead guitar
> Drummer
> Rhythm guitar
> Any horn instrument
> Keyboard
> Pyrotechnics crew
> Lighting crew
> Sound engineers
> Roadies
> Bass player (who? There, back there standing next to the drummer)
> 
> :rofl:


Only for the young and inexperienced. We quickly learn that the lead singer is pretty much invariably a narcissist of epic proportions, and the lead guitarist wouldn't know how to please a woman if you paid him.


----------



## Ikaika

always_alone said:


> Only for the young and inexperienced. We quickly learn that the lead singer is pretty much invariably a narcissist of epic proportions, and the lead guitarist wouldn't know how to please a woman if you paid him.



The only thing bass players have, longer (necks) pieces of wood


----------



## Brigit

staarz21 said:


> So, I googled the author of MMSLP in google images. Athol is delusional if he thinks his sex rank is high.


How did he develop this sex ranking anyway? Was there lots of research done by a top notch university and was the research peer reviewed? What is the reliability and validity factors? 

(More important why am I talking about this... )


----------



## MountainRunner

southbound said:


> This thread just conforms that everyone has opinions and likes and dislikes, just like with everything else. One woman might throw up over a mustache while one feels they are attractive.


Pretty much, yeah? My wife sez she likes her men "blond, built, and brainy" (pretty much describes me) and I have a thing for latinas, and she happens to be Puerto Rican. Works well for us. 

Of course, at 55...I'm definitely noticing a helluva lot of grey in my hair...LOL!


----------



## MountainRunner

staarz21 said:


> So, I googled the author of MMSLP in google images. Athol is delusional if he thinks his sex rank is high.


I know, right?


----------



## Dollystanford

I forgot some:

Slopey shoulders
Missing teeth
Stupid
Blonde hair
Indiscriminate farting
Eating with mouth open

I've recently become acquainted with an amazing set of balls - I was never bothered about balls before but goodness me they are big and round and tight and it makes me want to lick them


----------



## WandaJ

Faithful Wife said:


> Here's a lovely gem of a blog post by Athol about this same topic of women having no sex rank after hitting their wall....just one of hundreds of offensive things he's written.
> 
> Relative vs Absolute Sex Rank and the Forty-Year-Old Wife | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life


ok, I read that one post. he is brutally honest about biology and aging. I do not find it hateful though. Just a mumble bumble about absolute attractiveness without contest. But then he puts in the contest and says he does not need his wife to be twenty. Am I missing something?


----------



## Runs like Dog

staarz21 said:


> I am not sure why some guys think that the majority of women want to use them for money. Maybe they've been burned? Plenty of women are okay not being with someone who makes a ton of money. Many of the women are out there working too.


It has nothing to do with 'most' women it has to do with the stereotype envisaged right here. I'm not blind, are you?


----------



## Runs like Dog

Bottomline the women object to being objectified and also object to having someone point out they objectify men.


----------



## WandaJ

Faithful Wife said:


> Relative Sex Rank vs True Sex Rank | Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life
> 
> Here's another great one....
> 
> A quote from the beginning of the article:
> 
> *"I got asked a question recently that started along the lines of, “If a forty-year-old woman is a 9 and…”
> 
> …and let me stop you right there. There are no forty-year-old-women that are Sex Rank 9. Not a one. Nope not even her, or her, or whoever you think of. Just stop trying."*
> 
> (end quote)
> 
> But of course you see, men at age 40 have just hit their peak.
> 
> According to the 40 year old male author.


Ok, you are right here. he does sound like immature 40-ty dreaming of hot 24 yo, and for me this makes him unattractive, immature and boyish. I would be not a woman he is looking for and he would not be a man I would be interested in. It is one thing to notice young woman as beautiful and sexy, another to be so focused like on them. He will be like Hugh Heffner, hardly walking still surrunded by sexy bunnies and thinking that they are there because he is so hot.

So, if he thinks he is a catch, yes , maybe to easily impressed young girls. They sure will enjoy his wallet.

I am sure though that we could probably find blogs for women how to score a millioner

We live in the age of the internet. Everybody can start a movement , which is great and scary at the same time.


----------



## staarz21

Runs like Dog said:


> It has nothing to do with 'most' women it has to do with the stereotype envisaged right here. I'm not blind, are you?


Um. Not that I'm aware of. I am still confused as to what you're talking about I guess.


----------



## staarz21

WandaJ said:


> I am sure though that we could probably find blogs for women how to score a millioner


Yeah, I am sure those exist as well. I haven't looked up any of this (on the male or female) side. I really had no idea people were so fixated on this kind of stuff (the sex ranking). I thought if you met someone you were attracted to, liked them, got along well with them, had same values and such...then it was a good match. I didn't know there were people out there that went around giving everyone a number. 

And the same for women looking to be a gold digger. I just don't see these people as the majority. I am still shocked they exist though =p


----------



## Faithful Wife

WandaJ said:


> ok, I read that one post. he is brutally honest about biology and aging. I do not find it hateful though. Just a mumble bumble about absolute attractiveness without contest. But then he puts in the contest and says he does not need his wife to be twenty. Am I missing something?


That's the tip of the iceburg and the nicest form of red pill crap available...so yeah, you're still missing a lot of it. A LOT, just trust me. So so so so much crap....up to and including the fact that they encourage date rape.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Runs like Dog said:


> It has nothing to do with 'most' women it has to do with the stereotype envisaged right here. I'm not blind, are you?


Are you saying it is a stereo type that women want a hot man? Because that's what we're right here saying.


----------



## Faithful Wife

southbound said:


> True. If I went by this thread, I guess I'd go shave my mustache right now, but I've had it since I was a teen, so I guess I'll keep it.


I was kind of surprised to see so many "no mustache" answers myself. I like them. (Not always or on everyone, but my hubby has a nice, neatly trimmed one with a nice short goatee).


----------



## Faithful Wife

WandaJ said:


> I am sure though that we could probably find blogs for women how to score a millioner


Actually no, it isn't even close. There are very few books and websites like that for women (and they are only for women who truly want a man only for his money), and hundreds and hundreds of them for men who want to get laid. Just to get laid, they tell him all kinds of nonsense that basically leads them down the path toward date rape. 

If it was just a few weirdos, I wouldn't have anything to say about it.

But the same nonsense is behind the biggest book they push on men here all the time, MMSL.

So since so many men suggest that book around here, I'm going to SPEAK OUT against it and show what it is truly about, rather than just sit by and act like it is no big deal just a self help book.

Meanwhile, I will also promote excellent self help authors for men like Mark Manson. Mark Manson - Author. Thinker. Life Enthusiast.


----------



## Faithful Wife

staarz21 said:


> I just don't see these people as the majority. I am still shocked they exist though =p


They are far more in the majority than you think they are then.

Of course women normally don't hear about them...all the crap is geared toward men. Women don't normally google "how to have more luck with the ladies" and similar. 

However, I will say that most of the red pill crap has been exposed as crap over and over now, and it is losing its hold in the dating world. Women are on to it.

Here's just one of the hundreds of sickening sites, telling men how to neg women....


Negging Women – 10 Awesome Negs That Work | Seduction Science

quote:

By negging women, you’ve indicated to her that you’re not interested in her over anyone else in the group. This is a new thing for her. She’ll feel the bitter sting of being just like everyone else. Her looks no longer give her all the power – because you’re not responding to her looks.

Because you’re demonstrating social value to the group at the same time she’s wondering, “Why isn’t this guy attracted to me? Why isn’t this guy paying attention to me? Who is this guy? How am I going to win this guy’s attention?”


----------



## Ikaika

Faithful Wife said:


> I was kind of surprised to see so many "no mustache" answers myself. I like them. (Not always or on everyone, but my hubby has a nice, neatly trimmed one with a nice short goatee).



I had one, mustache (pic in my album), when I was much much younger, then when my oldest was an infant I had what I think they call a Van **** (goatee without sideburns). Facial hair now just makes me look old. My sons already remind me of how old I am, I don't need reaffirmation. 

Hair color? More gray now than its original dark brown. I'm a mixed breed (you couldn't tell) but pull more of my European ancestry, a mutt from the pound.


----------



## chillymorn

I like how you think out your posts BUT theres no passion to them!

reminds me of a librarian! and there hot!


How did I do? I'm going to try this stuff out thanks for the link!!!


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wolf1974 said:


> OR
> 
> 
> Just listen to us men who don't agree with that and state otherwise
> 
> :smthumbup:



Every man here who doesn't agree with the red pill crap gets this from me.

:allhail:


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Faithful Wife said:


> I was kind of surprised to see so many "no mustache" answers myself. I like them. (Not always or on everyone, but my hubby has a nice, neatly trimmed one with a nice short goatee).


I am ok with mustaches along with a goatee or beard. But I don't like them alone.


----------



## Holland

staarz21 said:


> So, I googled the author of MMSLP in google images. Athol is delusional if he thinks his sex rank is high.


Well thanks for that, I just googled an image too, that's something I can never unsee

And thanks to you to Dear FW, I read some of the links you posted of his, ugh what a loser he is. 
He should go for a walk around town, honestly there is a whole gaggle of very unkempt, unattractive middle age men walking around. This sex rank stuff is for morons.


----------



## Faithful Wife

chillymorn said:


> I like how you think out your posts BUT theres no passion to them!
> 
> reminds me of a librarian! and there hot!
> 
> 
> How did I do? I'm going to try this stuff out thanks for the link!!!



I really get turned on by elk hormones.

Because, you know, elk.

(ETA oh wait, I guess that is just a big buck, not an elk....ok big buck hormones do the trick, too).


----------



## WandaJ

I guess this guy is in permament middle life crisis, dreaming of 20-yo old. You know what ladies, let him have it. He is soooo about biology of sex, he forgets that the force behind sex and making 20 years so hot is in part their fertility (we are talking about pure biology here, ok, the way he does).
So, he leaves his old lady of 40, and goes for a nice hot girl of twenty. They are having fun for few years, and then her biology calls for babies. And then this guy, now 45 or fifty finds himself changing diapers in the middle of the night and pushing stroller in the park. And getting compliments on his "grandchildren" from strangers....

His old lady ex-wife has her children out of the house and is enjoying her freedom and full night beauty sleeps. karma is sweet 

Happy Saturday!time for margerita, ladies!


----------



## Faithful Wife

Nope, I'm still going to speak out against him and all the others (he is one of hundreds) for just as long as that crap is spewed here.


----------



## WandaJ

that's fine, let's just not make it into gender wars. We have a lot of smart guys here, let's not put them all in one bag.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Absolutely agree, and I will make more of a habit of speaking FOR the lovely men here when I see and read them. I would say the vast majority of men here are really great and have great things to say.


----------



## Brigit

Holland said:


> Well thanks for that, I just googled an image too, that's something I can never unsee
> 
> And thanks to you to Dear FW, I read some of the links you posted of his, ugh what a loser he is.
> He should go for a walk around town, honestly there is a whole gaggle of very unkempt, unattractive middle age men walking around. This sex rank stuff is for morons.


LOL! So next time someone brings up sex rank to us I think our standard line should be "What are you a moron?"


----------



## Holland

I don't think anyone is putting all men into the same category. There are many, many great guys here and IRL that see this sort of stuff as rubbish. But it is important that the message get out and that the good men stand up and say the red pill stuff is bull****.

I am going to assume that all the good men want to raise their kids to be good, confident adults and if so then it is important that this rubbish be exposed. What parent would want their son to live like this? To be so insecure and low EQ as to believe this stuff? What decent man would want his daughter to be so low in self esteem that she would put up with a man that lives the red pill ways?

It is apparent that this sort of thing is based on making money for the authors. They are roping in gullible, low self esteem men, men that are living in fear, insecurity and self loathing. This type of thing is not the realm of men that are intelligent and well balanced.

God help me if I raised kids that as adults lived this sort of life. I would be devastated as a parent to have ruined their lives.


----------



## EllisRedding

WandaJ said:


> that's fine, let's just not make it into gender wars. We have a lot of smart guys here, let's not put them all in one bag.


Thx for this. I am relatively new here but it seems like man bashing by some of the female posters (not singling any one in particular out, just an observation) seems to be a bit too common. ..


----------



## Faithful Wife

Where in Oregon, Ellis?


----------



## Brigit

WandaJ said:


> I guess this guy is in permament middle life crisis, dreaming of 20-yo old. You know what ladies, let him have it. He is soooo about biology of sex, he forgets that the force behind sex and making 20 years so hot is in part their fertility (we are talking about pure biology here, ok, the way he does).
> So, he leaves his old lady of 40, and goes for a nice hot girl of twenty. They are having fun for few years, and then her biology calls for babies. And then this guy, now 45 or fifty finds himself changing diapers in the middle of the night and pushing stroller in the park. And getting compliments on his "grandchildren" from strangers....
> 
> His old lady ex-wife has her children out of the house and is enjoying her freedom and full night beauty sleeps. karma is sweet
> 
> Happy Saturday!time for margerita, ladies!


I googled him too, saw his picture. He's a homely, skinny bald guy who wrote a book that makes unattractive men feel better so they buy it.


----------



## EllisRedding

Faithful Wife said:


> Where in Oregon, Ellis?


I would tell you but I am now afraid you will hunt me down and turn me into a burning pic 

Actually, the reason I put Oregon down, I had just finished watching an episode of Grimm which takes place in Portland Oregon lol. I am actually an East Coast guy :smthumbup:


----------



## Holland

EllisRedding said:


> Thx for this. I am relatively new here but it seems like man bashing by some of the female posters (not singling any one in particular out, just an observation) seems to be a bit too common. ..


No it isn't man bashing but I can see how it may feel that way. I think what many women are saying is that they adore men, good quality men. But also that they find the red pill man vile. No one is putting all of one gender into the same category.

Me personally, I have always been surrounded by really good men, my Dad is my hero, my brothers the same. I have a good amicable relationship with my ex, great males family and friends.
No not all men are in the same category, it is important that we say how great men are but it is equally important if not vital that we expose the truly vile ones as they are not just wrecking women's lives they are also destroying any hope of having a good, healthy life themselves.

TBH men that believe this red pill stuff need therapy STAT


----------



## Faithful Wife

EllisRedding said:


> I would tell you but I am now afraid you will hunt me down and turn me into a burning pic
> 
> Actually, the reason I put Oregon down, I had just finished watching an episode of Grimm which takes place in Portland Oregon lol. I am actually an East Coast guy :smthumbup:


Why? ARE YOU A RED PILLER!!?!??!  I'm coming to get you!!!

Ok that's supposed to be funny. 

I'm in Portland....oh wait, you aren't really in Oregon you just put that down, check. Got it. Well you are missing out, it is gorgeous here today.

As for that picture of the man on fire...I thought it was horribly offensive and I assume it is a real picture of a real suicide by fire. I feel that it was horrible to use this man's tragic pain to make a point, and I don't want to see a human being on fire....and it was slapped on here just to make us feel bad for stating our preferences. 

I want to be able to state my physical preferences without men doing that kind of thing.


----------



## ConanHub

I swear, I never heard of MMSLP until this site. I am almost going to have to read it now to see what all the hubub is about it. Maybe a thread could be started about it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding

Holland said:


> No it isn't man bashing but I can see how it may feel that way. I think what many women are saying is that they adore men, good quality men. But also that they find the red pill man vile. No one is putting all of one gender into the same category.
> 
> Me personally, I have always been surrounded by really good men, my Dad is my hero, my brothers the same. I have a good amicable relationship with my ex, great males family and friends.
> No not all men are in the same category, it is important that we say how great men are but it is equally important if not vital that we expose the truly vile ones as they are not just wrecking women's lives they are also destroying any hope of having a good, healthy life themselves.
> 
> TBH men that believe this red pill stuff need therapy STAT


Honestly haven't been on the forums all day or much of yesterday, so I was just surprised when I logged in to this thread the direction it had turned from a more light hearted conversation. 

My point was, even if you just solely read your response you can sense the hatred (or the perceived hatred) you have towards certain men "vital we expose the truly vile ones". I am not here saying that the men on this board need to expose the truly vile females who ruin mens' lives, if I did I am sure I would get some backlash for saying. 

Not trying to start a gender war here, far from it, and didn't mean to take away from this thread.


----------



## EllisRedding

Faithful Wife said:


> Why? ARE YOU A RED PILLER!!?!??!  I'm coming to get you!!!
> 
> Ok that's supposed to be funny.
> 
> I'm in Portland....oh wait, you aren't really in Oregon you just put that down, check. Got it. Well you are missing out, it is gorgeous here today.
> 
> As for that picture of the man on fire...I thought it was horribly offensive and I assume it is a real picture of a real suicide by fire. I feel that it was horrible to use this man's tragic pain to make a point, and I don't want to see a human being on fire....and it was slapped on here just to make us feel bad for stating our preferences.
> 
> I want to be able to state my physical preferences without men doing that kind of thing.


Didn't read anything about the red pill stuff so honestly no clue what it was referring to, except I thought you all were making a reference about whether or not to go back into the Matrix 

Portland is on my list at some point. I absolutely love it out West when I have been there for work or travel, kids and their whole "We need parents" kind of derailed my wife and I travel plans  We did have some nice weather today, and tomorrow looks great (sunny and 70s) which is perfect since it is my son's communion.


----------



## Faithful Wife

EllisRedding said:


> Honestly haven't been on the forums all day or much of yesterday, so I was just surprised when I logged in to this thread the direction it had turned from a more light hearted conversation.
> 
> My point was, even if you just solely read your response you can sense the hatred (or the perceived hatred) you have towards certain men "vital we expose the truly vile ones". I am not here saying that the men on this board need to expose the truly vile females who ruin mens' lives, if I did I am sure I would get some backlash for saying.
> 
> Not trying to start a gender war here, far from it, and didn't mean to take away from this thread.


Ellis, if a large number of women were promoting a book here that talks about how stupid men are, how to get their money without ever having to touch them, and about how to make them feel horrible about themselves so that we can take advantage of their nature, I would speak out against those women and that book, also. And you would read the hatred for that book and those women in my posts, if such a thing were going on.

So there's really no equivalent to it here as far as a movement where women are telling each other how to dupe men.


----------



## Faithful Wife

EllisRedding said:


> Portland is on my list at some point. I absolutely love it out West when I have been there for work or travel, kids and their whole "We need parents" kind of derailed my wife and I travel plans  We did have some nice weather today, and tomorrow looks great (sunny and 70s) which is perfect since it is my son's communion.


Ha, yeah those needy ankle biters get in the way of all the adult fun.

Get on out here sometime! Just make sure you come in August...as there is a 90% chance of rain the rest of the year.


----------



## WandaJ

EllisRedding said:


> Thx for this. I am relatively new here but it seems like man bashing by some of the female posters (not singling any one in particular out, just an observation) seems to be a bit too common. ..


Ellis, this unfortunatley goes both ways once in a while. you should have seen the beating women got on walk away wife's thread. I had to stop reading it. There are a lot of people hurt in the relationships who come here so full of resentment and put it on the whole opposite gender. Then after a while, hopefully, most of them outgrow it. some never.


----------



## EllisRedding

Faithful Wife said:


> Ellis, if a large number of women were promoting a book here that talks about how stupid men are, how to get their money without ever having to touch them, and about how to make them feel horrible about themselves so that we can take advantage of their nature, I would speak out against those women and that book, also. And you would read the hatred for that book and those women in my posts, if such a thing were going on.
> 
> So there's really no equivalent to it here as far as a movement where women are telling each other how to dupe men.


Just to clarify (which I should have done, apologies for that), my comment was more general referring to my experience on the forum so far (which overall has been a positive and helpful). As I mentioned, I just logged in (I am hiding from my in laws right now lol), didn't really read much of the context of the last few days posts in this thread, so my comments weren't targeted specifically to anything posted here. It was just an observation I have noticed since joining here. I do realize as a male this is something that I would pick up on more quickly than a female as I have a different perspective (and I am playing with fire posting this is in The Ladies' Lounge, but every once in a while I like to live dangerously ).

And to add to WandaJs post, completely agree, likewise I have had to walk away from threads for similar reasons.


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> I want to be able to state my physical preferences without men doing that kind of thing.


Amen!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland

EllisRedding said:


> Honestly haven't been on the forums all day or much of yesterday, so I was just surprised when I logged in to this thread the direction it had turned from a more light hearted conversation.
> 
> *My point was, even if you just solely read your response you can sense the hatred (or the perceived hatred) you have towards certain men *"vital we expose the truly vile ones". I am not here saying that the men on this board need to expose the truly vile females who ruin mens' lives, if I did I am sure I would get some backlash for saying.
> 
> Not trying to start a gender war here, far from it, and didn't mean to take away from this thread.


You are part way there and seem to have skimmed the good bits, the parts where I say that I adore good men. I have no problem saying that a certain type of man is vile and this was a question in the women's area after all. I think the same about vile women, it is not about gender, it is about humans in general. 
OK you have not been here long, granted but if you stopped to read my posts you would see that I value good humans, non gender specific. I have made many positive comments about the men of TAM and men in general but what I won't do is to lump all men into one category and say that just because many are good that they all are. I am a responsible parent and this sort of stuff just does not go down well, I want my kids to be happy, emotionally healthy, well balanced adults, if my thinking that certain behaviours by men (in this case) are vile then so be it, I won't shy away from that.

FWIW it is more a feeling sorry for the guys that are so self loathing that they buy into this bull****. The hatred is reserved for the guys that are making money out of exploiting the weaker ones of their own gender.


----------



## Ikaika

Faithful Wife said:


> Why? ARE YOU A RED PILLER!!?!??!  I'm coming to get you!!!
> 
> Ok that's supposed to be funny.
> 
> I'm in Portland....oh wait, you aren't really in Oregon you just put that down, check. Got it. Well you are missing out, it is gorgeous here today.
> 
> As for that picture of the man on fire...I thought it was horribly offensive and I assume it is a real picture of a real suicide by fire. I feel that it was horrible to use this man's tragic pain to make a point, and I don't want to see a human being on fire....and it was slapped on here just to make us feel bad for stating our preferences.
> 
> I want to be able to state my physical preferences without men doing that kind of thing.



I spent/spend two weeks in Eugene for the last three years every May or June. I'm not sure if I'll be there this year... U of O at ZIRC, it's a research center. 

Two summers ago when I was there, I met up with some TAMers and their spouses. It was a fun evening, but sadly two of them no longer come to these haunts and the other one rarely posts.


----------



## Faithful Wife

How awesome!! I believe I'm going to get to meet someone from TAM soon if all plans go as planned...I'm super stoked about it!

Where are you in Hawaii? I went to try to look at your pictures, but I never do that so I don't really know where they are? (derp) Feels silly, it should be obvious right?

Holland, I love men, too...have a sex blog about how I worship my hubby...love my kid and his friends, my SIL, my cousins and brother...they are all such great men. Most men at TAM are as well. I wish when we speak about how much we love men it would be noticed more. I also speak out about stupid sh*t women or all people do. If it ultimately harms people, I'm against it.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Just thought of a new one. Can't stand when men don't keep up with shaving the backs of their necks, even between haircuts.

Also hate habitual spitters.


----------



## Brigit

Faithful Wife said:


> Ellis, if a large number of women were promoting a book here that talks about how stupid men are, how to get their money without ever having to touch them, and about how to make them feel horrible about themselves so that we can take advantage of their nature


...you know if I write that book...well.. I could use the money


----------



## Ikaika

Faithful Wife said:


> How awesome!! I believe I'm going to get to meet someone from TAM soon if all plans go as planned...I'm super stoked about it!
> 
> Where are you in Hawaii? I went to try to look at your pictures, but I never do that so I don't really know where they are? (derp) Feels silly, it should be obvious right?
> 
> .


Born and raised on Kaua'i but I live on Windward side of O'ahu.


----------



## frusdil

lucy999 said:


> I think the thread here and the thread in the Men's Club are blatantly honest. And there's nothing wrong with that. I mean come on. I listed pendulous balls as a turn-off. That's pretty damn honest.


That was the highlight of this thread!!! I can't remember the last time I LOL'd that much at something I read!! :rofl:


----------



## MountainRunner

Dollystanford said:


> I forgot some...
> Indiscriminate farting


I know what you mean..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkmw9oGIDhI


----------



## MountainRunner

SecondTime'Round said:


> Also hate habitual spitters.


OMG! I'm a guy and I find that habit even worse than smoking (and I HATE smoking!)! I mean...WTF is so "cool" about spitting? I once found some spit on my front porch shortly after my son and his teenaged friends were out on the porch. Once I found it, I marched upstairs and very...heh..."sternly" asked who did it. One of my son's friends admitted to it and I grabbed him by his neck and literally dragged his sorry a$$ downstairs and made him wipe it up with his shirt and told him the next time he disrespects me like that, I will drag his a$$ home and spit on his parents floor and ask them how they like it!

Don't parents teach their kids manners anymore? WTF?


----------



## MountainRunner

EllisRedding said:


> Portland is on my list at some point.


If and when you make it out there, make a point of visiting Lake Oswego (about 10-15 minutes south of Portland proper) as there are a lot of excellent dining establishments there. One in particular I strongly recommend (and I'm a food snob) is La Provence. You can thank me later. *grin*

La Provence & Petite Provence | French Bistro & Bakery


----------



## Faithful Wife

MR, the one on Division in Portland is a stone's throw away from me. Mmmmm mmmm....


----------



## Faithful Wife

intheory...and others...yeah, it is even more silly considering what he looks like...yet my point is always that he is spreading a harmful message. Whatever he looks like isn't stopping him from spreading it, in fact he's quite popular. He's just one of many, also. The rest of them are goofy looking, too. But that part is irrelevant, I think.


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> I was kind of surprised to see so many "no mustache" answers myself. I like them. (Not always or on everyone, but my hubby has a nice, neatly trimmed one with a nice short goatee).


Woman after my own heart. I had one when I was married. My x really liked it and I liked her so I had it.

after divorced every female friend LOUDLY said that had to go so I shaved it. Huge pay off in the attention I got. Seemed the only woman who did like it was my x. Guess I couldn't pull off the magnum PI look


----------



## Faithful Wife

Funny, in Portland kids (and some not so much kids) are playing around with all kinds of facial hair. I mean, seeing a dude with mutton chops or a 15 inch long afro is not unusual.

Thus, they are also testing around a bit with a thick mustache. I'm into it on the right person. It is difficult to pull off but when you can, it is good.

My ex-h had a full beard and full stache. Both were very nice, soft, and I loved them. I combed and trimmed his beard and ran my fingers through it and rubbed my face on it. It was incredibly soft. Sometimes if I knew a gf was kinda "ew" about beards, I'd have her over at the house some time and be like "well, touch my hubby's beard, you'll change your mind" and she would and she'd almost melt and say "omg, it is amazing!" 

His chest hair was quite lovely, too. Soft and not wiry. Not too long. Just the right amount. Very nice. Had a few friends touch that hair, too, and proclaim how wonderful it was.


----------



## MountainRunner

Faithful Wife said:


> MR, the one on Division in Portland is a stone's throw away from me. Mmmmm mmmm....


And right up the road is another of our favs...Gubanc's Pub. Very good Americana. 

But yeah...Isn't La Provence simply "off the hook"? Wow.


----------



## Holland

Faithful Wife said:


> intheory...and others...yeah, it is even more silly considering what he looks like...yet my point is always that he is spreading a harmful message. Whatever he looks like isn't stopping him from spreading it, in fact he's quite popular. He's just one of many, also. The rest of them are goofy looking, too. But that part is irrelevant, I think.


I think what he looks like is relevant, isn't he the one going on with the sex rank stuff? Let's be honest here, he might make it to a 2 in the rankings for looks, a zero for attitude but maybe with all the money he is scamming from other men his nett worth might put him at a 6 following his theory.


----------



## Brigit

intheory said:


> For the record: Mr. Athol Kay


LOL! I want to put a thought bubble over his head saying:

"Yeah, OK all you hot bit*hes from HS who wouldn't look at me...see I got ya back........now will you sleep with me???"


----------



## Brigit

intheory said:


> I'm not sure it _is_ irrelevant; because of the heavy emphasis they put on a woman's looks and "SMW" and that "Wall" stuff you linked to upthread.
> 
> The reason I posted his picture, is that I would like any women who are hearing about him and his philosophies, to consider the source of those philosophies.
> 
> And sometimes I wonder, if a man of modest income who was, say, a grocery store checker, bore a strong resemblance to Keanu Reeves - do you think he would be in need of the "manosphere" or the teachings of MMSLP. Do good looking men seethe with resentment towards women, generally speaking.


:iagree:


----------



## Faithful Wife

intheory said:


> I'm not sure it _is_ irrelevant; because of the heavy emphasis they put on a woman's looks and "SMW" and that "Wall" stuff you linked to upthread.
> 
> The reason I posted his picture, is that I would like any women who are hearing about him and his philosophies, to consider the source of those philosophies.
> 
> And sometimes I wonder, if a man of modest income who was, say, a grocery store checker, bore a strong resemblance to Keanu Reeves - do you think he would be in need of the "manosphere" or the teachings of MMSLP. *Do good looking men seethe with resentment towards women, generally speaking*.


Excellent point about how good looking men don't seethe with resentment toward women...although some of them do too if they are cheated on or divorced. 

The thing about Athol's looks is that if any of his followers saw your point, he would just say "yep that's why he writes for guys like us".

See a lot of the red pill stuff is specifically to teach guys how to not only get women into bed, but to get women who are hotter than they are, who they can't normally catch on their own, into bed. The nerdy, uncool, uncute dude wants to know how to land the head cheerleader....and thus Athol and others just like him have a plan ready to sell you.

And according to thousands of readers and followers, these plans work. It is all about how to add other factors to your overall package to increase your attractiveness to females...and yes, usually working out and getting in shape is part of that plan...but for some guys this is only going to take them so far. So the rest is a bunch of tricks and schemes they learn. It is all to compensate for their lack of genuine good looks (usually). They are always chasing a girl that is out of their league in red pill land, and their only focus is on how hot she is....so how do I get her to notice me even though she's so much hotter than me?

That's where the ranking system comes in. If you're a 5 and she's a 7, physically speaking, she won't notice you until you add 2 points for wealth or some other "display of value".

See why how he looks is actually a testament to his own plan and that it works?

Athol is married anyway, and his wife is a coach for this crap, too. So he's not actually trolling for women himself.

But there are hundreds of others of them who are single and claim they've bagged all kinds of women using this stuff.

Just taking shots at Athol with "what a goofy looking guy" doesn't stop his dangerous message and his followers would just laugh and say "yeah that's why he's rich, right?"


----------



## chillymorn

me thinks someone protests too much.

lol


----------



## kristin2349

That photo of Athol Kay is creeping me out. Here this is much better...


----------



## Faithful Wife

Yes, I will always protest rapey literature that seeks to encourage men to dupe women. I will always protest any literature that is promoted here that tries to create gender warfare. If I protest it "too much" here this is a reflection on how often the nonsense is spewed here.


----------



## ConanHub

intheory. That can't possibly be Athol. He is always dripping with hot 20 year old women so that can't be him!&#55357;&#56841;&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56840;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Brigit

Faithful Wife said:


> They are always chasing a girl that is out of their league in red pill land, and their only focus is on how hot she is....so how do I get her to notice me even though she's so much hotter than me?
> 
> That's where the ranking system comes in. If you're a 5 and she's a 7, physically speaking, she won't notice you until you add 2 points for wealth or some other "display of value".
> 
> See why how he looks is actually a testament to his own plan and that it works?
> 
> Athol is married anyway, and his wife is a coach for this crap, too. So he's not actually trolling for women himself.
> 
> But there are hundreds of others of them who are single and claim they've bagged all kinds of women using this stuff.
> 
> Just taking shots at Athol with "what a goofy looking guy" doesn't stop his dangerous message and his followers would just laugh and say "yeah that's why he's rich, right?"


His wife is very happy promoting his stuff because she's making lots of money off of it. 

If nerdy looking men think that they can buy his book and they will catch a girl who's extremely attractive then so be it. I don't blame Athol for all the crap I see in the media telling me I better be young and beautiful or my life will suck. He capitalized on the messages out there as most shrewd business men do. 

We as females do need to fight the good fight. Promote health and well-being and fight advertising that causes women to hate themselves and their bodies. The media is just too saturated with unhealthy messages. It hurts everyone. I for one am a product of its damage.


----------



## bandit.45

Don't bag on Athol Kay until you have read his works. He is not sexist at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

There are many female posters on TAM who recommend that guys read his stuff.


----------



## joannacroc

Faithful Wife said:


> This is interesting. I have a gf who has blue eyes and she just can't get with a blue eyed guy...she says she feels there's something incestuous about it, like it is her brother.
> 
> And I have another guy friend who is Asian who won't date other Asians. Sadly I think this is due to self-loathing.
> 
> What does it mean for you, joannacroc?


Personally, it's not a race thing for me as I will date guys of any ethnicity, including my own. I just don't happen to find other people with my hair and eye color attractive, with a few exceptions. The whole pale, blonde, blue-eyed, Viking look just leaves me cold. I don't think it's self-loathing, as I could appreciate a Brad Pitt/Chris Hemsworth objectively, they just don't necessarily do anything for me. Now brown eyes, I have a bit of a weakness for


----------



## ConanHub

bandit.45 said:


> Don't bag on Athol Kay until you have read his works. He is not sexist at all. Quite the opposite in fact.
> 
> There are many female posters on TAM who recommend that guys read his stuff.


That is a fair comment Bandit. I haven't read any books from him. I am reluctant to pay for them through.

Maybe I can find an online deal. I'll reserve judgment until I can examine his work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Bought it, paid full price for it, read it more than once, left a review on amazon. It is full of sh*t. The parts that are not sh*t can be found in many other books. It is full of hateful crap.


----------



## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> Bought it, paid full price for it, read it more than once, left a review on amazon. It is full of sh*t. The parts that are not sh*t can be found in many other books. It is full of hateful crap.


goes to show you how differently men and women think. Yeah there is crap in his stuff. As with anything else you have to pick through and use what works and ignore the rest. I don't think he is mysoginistic or anything like that. He is pragmatic.

Same with NMMNG. There is some definite snake oil in alot of what is taught there, but the majority of it is solid advice.


----------



## Brigit

intheory said:


> Athol Kay has a website where you can get a very good idea of his ideas/approach/philosophy.
> 
> So, it basically comes down to not accepting that you are less than ideal physically;ergo, the most attractive women aren't going to have genuine physical attraction and lust for you.
> 
> This is a sad truth of life in just about all areas. If you lack in a certain area: looks/education/money/talent;then the people who *do* have that ability or resource, are probably not going to be _genuinely_ drawn to you.
> 
> 
> 
> 5 Ways Modern Men Are Trained to Hate Women | Cracked.com



That quote is horrible.


----------



## bandit.45

You know what else I have a problem with? I have all this fvcking dry skin around my ankles. I scrub it, exfoliate, and slather on the lotion and it won't go away. Its gross. I hate it. It's not really noticeable but damn my body is falling apart!!!

Gah!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

When I was in high school... I always liked the boys with long hair.. I crushed on them from a far.. even today... I will notice the younger men with long hair and think they are







....once guys get a certain age though.. this no longer works .. it starts looking bad. 

I guess it's the love for Rock music or something... the allure of the grungy lead singer (like a Kurt Cobain, young Axle Rose)... The sorry thing about it is.. I always loved *the LOOK*.. but hated *the lifestyle* that came with it.. so it was a bummer. 

*Turn offs* : Beards.. what I love is "stubble" on a man.. and a trimmed mustache. Smoking, drinking, Coc*ky over confident attitude.. if he wears Ear gauges (Gawd those look bad!)... too many tattoos...

Baldness.. Grey hair.. too much stomach...over weight... too much muscle...if he looks like he can wear a small bra.. it all goes down hill from there.. obviously keeps his mouth & body fresh & clean for mutual pleasure. 



> *intheory said*: *This is a sad truth of life in just about all areas. If you lack in a certain area: looks/education/money/talent; then the people who do have that ability or resource, are probably not going to be genuinely drawn to you.*


 I 100% agree with this statement.. We're just not all the same on these things either.. I've always cared more about the guys looks /how he treats me / our compatibility over how much money he makes...(a standard of decent responsible living must apply of course to not be living on the streets & to afford a simple lifestyle)... so long as that is in effect..Looks goes a long long way with me..... over the one who makes big bucks, drives nice cars, but I wasn't drawn to him physically..

I've heard some speak of being drawn in by one's intelligence.. I can understand some of that but if not physically attracted.. It would still fall to the ground for me.


----------



## norajane

bandit.45 said:


> You know what else I have a problem with? I have all this fvcking dry skin around my ankles. I scrub it, exfoliate, and slather on the lotion and it won't go away. Its gross. I hate it. It's not really noticeable but damn my body is falling apart!!!
> 
> Gah!


Drink more water - you really do moisturize best from the inside out. A little fat in your diet won't hurt, either.

For the outside, put some coconut oil or olive oil on your ankles at bedtime, and then wear socks to bed. It will help.


----------



## jld

norajane said:


> Drink more water - you really do moisturize best from the inside out. A little fat in your diet won't hurt, either.
> 
> For the outside, put some coconut oil or olive oil on your ankles at bedtime, and then wear socks to bed. It will help.


Lanolin (Lansinoh) works, too.


----------



## optimalprimus

SecondTime'Round said:


> Just thought of a new one. Can't stand when men don't keep up with shaving the backs of their necks, even between haircuts.
> 
> Also hate habitual spitters.


sh*t I'm guilty of that one!

Mind you, my wife doesn't seem to care.


----------



## optimalprimus

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, I will always protest rapey literature that seeks to encourage men to dupe women. I will always protest any literature that is promoted here that tries to create gender warfare. If I protest it "too much" here this is a reflection on how often the nonsense is spewed here.


I have a real problem myself with the word 'rapey'. rape is what it is, you can't be 'rapey'.


----------



## kristin2349

optimalprimus said:


> I have a real problem myself with the word 'rapey'. rape is what it is, you can't be 'rapey'.



You must be a dude. I have met/been hit on by men I would describe as "rapey". 

ETA: Most normal men do not fall into this description, a normal polite pick up attempt is not considered "rapey". Making a woman afraid for her personal safety is.


----------



## Holland

bandit.45 said:


> You know what else I have a problem with? I have all this fvcking dry skin around my ankles. I scrub it, exfoliate, and slather on the lotion and it won't go away. Its gross. I hate it. It's not really noticeable but damn my body is falling apart!!!
> 
> Gah!


Paw paw ointment, not the petroleum oil based one, get a natural one.


----------



## optimalprimus

kristin2349 said:


> You must be a dude. I have met/been hit on by men I would describe as "rapey".


yep I am. I think your example is exactly why I don't like the word. Anyhow sorry for the TJ.


----------



## Kristisha

The biggest turn off is bad teeth

Bad hygiene 
Bald
Too short
Too fat
Nails not trimmed enough
And because I love a trimmed good looking beard, I must say I don't like shaved men, on face of course


----------



## always_alone

intheory said:


> Athol Kay has a website where you can get a very good idea of his ideas/approach/philosophy.


And it's all chock full of misogyny. It rather blows my mind how many people seem to think it's not. Testament, I guess, to just how prevalent and acceptable misogyny is in our world.


----------



## MountainRunner

always_alone said:


> *And it's all chock full of misogyny. It rather blows my mind how many people seem to think it's not.* Testament, I guess, to just how prevalent and acceptable misogyny is in our world.


I too am somewhat surprised. I'm amazed how somebody can go to that website and NOT see the overt misogyny. I mean, it is all over the place. I joined MMSL before I found this website. I could only tolerate it over there for a couple of days. Once I found this place, there was no reason to go there and be part of that crap.


----------



## bandit.45

This thread is awesome. My ankles feel smoother already!


----------



## Ikaika

I'm just guessing but is this a physical turn off?


----------



## MountainRunner

Bag Balm is awesome stuff. Sometimes my fingertips get these painful "cold weather cracks" and the only thing that seems to expedite the healing is with Bag Balm.


----------



## MountainRunner

Did you all know that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste "funny"?


----------



## Faithful Wife

bandit.45 said:


> goes to show you how differently men and women think. Yeah there is crap in his stuff. As with anything else *you have to pick through and use what works and ignore the rest*. I don't think he is mysoginistic or anything like that. He is pragmatic.
> 
> Same with NMMNG. There is some definite snake oil in alot of what is taught there, but the majority of it is solid advice.


No, I don't. I can do exactly what I am doing and loudly protest against the crap.

And again, I would do the same if such a horrible sentiment was being passed around by women here. 

And no, men and women don't think differently on this stuff. We are all buying relationship books, we are all trying to fix our stuff with our spouses or make it better or just generally be happy in relationships. We all want a magic potion, fast results, and no pain. I love books, and usually even the crappiest book available still has some merit for me, if it is a topic I'm interested in.

This one is hateful and has an evil agenda. No matter how many times someone tells me to take the good and leave the bad, I just can't do it on this book. I don't care if Athol is ultimately pro-marriage...all of the red pill crap comes from the same set of highly dangerous flawed premises that are being spewed as if the Gods of Science handed them The Truth.

I'm not going to respond directly to you anymore about MMSL bandit, because we'll just have to agree to disagree, and I don't want to go too far off on it with someone who is for it. I really don't want to defend my opinion. You have yours, I respect it. Please do the same for me.

There are lots of wonderful self help books out there to choose from.


----------



## frusdil

Ikaika said:


> I'm just guessing but is this a physical turn off?


Egads!! NOTHING scarier than a clown!!! 

I won't sleep for a week now...thanks!! Lol!


----------



## Faithful Wife

MountainRunner said:


> I too am somewhat surprised. I'm amazed how somebody can go to that website and NOT see the overt misogyny. I mean, it is all over the place. I joined MMSL before I found this website. I could only tolerate it over there for a couple of days. Once I found this place, there was no reason to go there and be part of that crap.


:allhail:


----------



## Faithful Wife

I wish the "king" didn't look like an evil red pill! Lol!

OMG the little worshippers are blue pills!

That is a riot.

Well anyway, MR you get the Awesomeness Award.


----------



## joannacroc

Ikaika said:


> I'm just guessing but is this a physical turn off?


Right up there with Henry Kissinger.


----------



## Curse of Millhaven

Runs like Dog said:


> Being on fire is a pretty big turnoff.


Oh, I don't know. I can see an upside to an extra-crispy man. Just think of the romantic lol opportunities...every Valentine's Day I'd request "our song" be played on the radio... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzQvGz6_fvA

(Altho, I prefer this cover version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am1iELQl31k)

Truthfully, Corre Como Perro, every time I see that picture of Thich Quang Duc I'm reminded of his sacrifice and commitment to protesting social injustice and am impressed and amazed anew. His act of self-immolation impacted the world community and spurred change. What conviction! Now that's a major fvcking turn-on for this crazy girl right here! I could see myself carrying a torch (lol!) for someone like that the rest of my days.

In other news...I'm bummed that you're banned and hope it is not permanent. I intend to inquire about it directly!


----------



## Curse of Millhaven

intheory said:


> For the record: Mr. Athol Kay


OMG, didn't that guy's face melt off at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark???











As for me, my physical turn-offs are:

men who shave their body hair
perms on men

My physical preferences are pretty malleable and not carved in stone. I'm continually surprised by what I find attractive.


----------



## ConanHub

bandit.45 said:


> This thread is awesome. My ankles feel smoother already!


LOL!! &#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jellybeans

Curse of Millhaven said:


> As for me, my physical turn-offs are:
> 
> men who shave their body hair


Me, too! Especially if it's the chest area. But I do find a hairy chest kinda sexy.


----------



## FizzBomb

Faithful Wife said:


> My all time fave funk song though is...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4nOHdUntyM


My fave from Parliament is 'Flashlight' also, Up With the Down Stroke (I think that's the title).

Adding to my list:

moobs
pointy longish nipples
long curly navel hairs


I've read Athol's website and it's revolting, basically. I can't believe his wife buys into it. Also, I believe she writes the occasional post (she did when I read it a couple of years ago).

It's filled with misogynistic garbage covered by a thin veil of bullsh!t that is peddled out to weak ugly men who can't get laid to save themselves. Last time I looked there even was a forum that was running on his website - may still be there. I couldn't believe some of the nonsense I read on there. Needless to say I've never been back.

Can't stand PUA aka Pick Up Arseholes :lol: or Negging. Blech! What a bunch of low IQ fools.

Anyway, carry on!


----------



## Brigit

FizzBomb said:


> My fave from Parliament is 'Flashlight' also, Up With the Down Stroke (I think that's the title).
> 
> Adding to my list:
> 
> moobs
> pointy longish nipples
> long curly navel hairs
> 
> 
> I've read Athol's website and it's revolting, basically. I can't believe his wife buys into it. Also, I believe she writes the occasional post (she did when I read it a couple of years ago).
> 
> It's filled with misogynistic garbage covered by a thin veil of bullsh!t that is peddled out to weak ugly men who can't get laid to save themselves. Last time I looked there even was a forum that was running on his website - may still be there. I couldn't believe some of the nonsense I read on there. Needless to say I've never been back.
> 
> Can't stand PUA aka Pick Up Arseholes :lol: or Negging. Blech! What a bunch of low IQ fools.


Remember, the wife makes money off of this crap. Maybe at first she thought it wasn't so wonderful but after buying herself some designer jewelry and staying at the Four Seasons in Maui she changed her mind. Plus, we don't know what happens behind closed doors. She might be the mastermind of this whole load of garbage. 

In any case "moobs" are repulsive. 

Other Turnoffs:
Men under 5'8 (No offense I just really like guys over 6ft.)
Men with women hips
Men with narrow shoulders


----------



## FizzBomb

Oh yeah, I don't doubt she's making money off this nonsense. Yeah, man titties are bloody awful.

I don't mind men who are shorter. I think they're really cute. I would say 5'6 - 5'10 and no more. Easier to kiss standing up.

Someone earlier mentioned sloping shoulders and I would have to agree it is an unfortunate look.

Rounded shoulders
Poor posture


----------



## Dollystanford

that's Athol? HAHAHA
This (hot) 40 year old chick wouldn't touch you with a bargepole sunbeam
4Real


----------



## Brigit

Dollystanford said:


> that's Athol? HAHAHA
> This (hot) 40 year old chick wouldn't touch you with a bargepole sunbeam
> 4Real


Of course he looks like wet noodle. Do you think a hot guy would put this much thought into sex ranking women? A hot guy lives his life and if a woman gets him hard he wants to fu*K her if she doesn't he moves on. Simple.


----------



## Ikaika

Seems like sex rank is quite subjective as are all the turn off list I read here. I certainly am not offended but then again, I'm old and that should shoot me to the top of any turn off list... as I pull my plaid pants up over my bellybutton :rofl:


----------



## lucy999

Ikaika said:


> Seems like sex rank is quite subjective as are all the turn off list I read here. I certainly am not offended but then again, I'm old and that should shoot me to the top of any turn off list... as I pull my plaid pants up over my bellybutton :rofl:


Like this? High waisted pants are back in vogue so you might do alright.


----------



## Ikaika

lucy999 said:


> Like this? High waisted pants are back in vogue so you might do alright.


Worse, add salt and pepper hair.


----------



## Middle of Everything

Guess Im ok. Keep working out and bathing and Im ok.

Just need to order those lift shoes. Couple inches off the magic 6.


----------



## happy as a clam

Dollystanford said:


> that's Athol? HAHAHA
> This (hot) 40 year old chick wouldn't touch you with a bargepole sunbeam
> 4Real





Brigit said:


> Of course he looks like wet noodle. Do you think a hot guy would put this much thought into sex ranking women? A hot guy lives his life and if a woman gets him hard he wants to fu*K her if she doesn't he moves on. Simple.


Athol Kay is an active member of this forum (username "Atholk") who still posts here from time to time. It seems a little mean-spirited to me to post his picture and then make fun of it .


----------



## Faithful Wife

Middle of Everything said:


> Guess Im ok. Keep working out and bathing and Im ok.
> 
> Just need to order those lift shoes. Couple inches off the magic 6.


But it really doesn't matter what a bunch of internet strangers think, right? You aren't in the market, and neither are most of us.

Just as when men state their preferences (like on the similar threads in the mens section), it doesn't actually say anything about any individual woman here. They are just stating their preferences, not insulting anyone who doesn't have those qualities. Likewise, none of us need to worry what any particular stranger on the internet's preferences are.


----------



## Brigit

happy as a clam said:


> Athol Kay is an active member of this forum (username "Atholk") who still posts here from time to time. It seems a little mean-spirited to me to post his picture and then make fun of it .


Just checked out his profile. Didn't know he was a member here. It would be very interesting if he came on this site and told the women in their 40's that none of us are a nine on a scale of 1-10 and other stuff along those lines. It would be an interesting conversation indeed.


----------



## Dollystanford

I think what he writes is mean spirited. Don't dish it out if you can't take it


----------



## Fozzy

I think listing physical turnoffs is useful and appropriate. I also think disagreeing with MMSLP and it's principles is completely appropriate. I don't think bagging on a picture of a real guy is.

Whether you like him or hate him, keep in mind there are other guys out there that consider themselves to be on par or below par with him physically.

Same applies for bagging on pictures of real women, for the same reason.


----------



## Dollystanford

He's not my type, he might be someone else's
Who cares? I'm nearly 40, I have no sex rank anyway right?


----------



## Fozzy

When I recently made an off-hand cheeky remark about the average female Wal-Mart shopper (no picture--just a remark), I was chastised for it--and justifiably so--because other women could have been reading that viewed themselves in the same light.

I hadn't thought of that at the time, but it did make me think about trying to be a little more kind.

Not trying to suck the fun and humor out of the thread, but it just seems to cross a line posting someones picture to make fun of their looks--even when you think he might be an a-hole.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

MountainRunner said:


> OMG! I'm a guy and I find that habit even worse than smoking (and I HATE smoking!)! I mean...WTF is so "cool" about spitting? I once found some spit on my front porch shortly after my son and his teenaged friends were out on the porch. Once I found it, I marched upstairs and very...heh..."sternly" asked who did it. One of my son's friends admitted to it and I grabbed him by his neck and literally dragged his sorry a$$ downstairs and made him wipe it up with his shirt and told him the next time he disrespects me like that, I will drag his a$$ home and spit on his parents floor and ask them how they like it!
> 
> Don't parents teach their kids manners anymore? WTF?


Hahaha....love that you made him do it with his shirt! :smthumbup:


----------



## Holland

Fozzy said:


> I think listing physical turnoffs is useful and appropriate. I also think disagreeing with MMSLP and it's principles is completely appropriate. * I don't think bagging on a picture of a real guy is.*
> 
> Whether you like him or hate him, keep in mind there are other guys out there that consider themselves to be on par or below par with him physically.
> 
> Same applies for bagging on pictures of real women, for the same reason.


I would usually agree with this. However this is a guy that makes money out of teaching other men how to treat women with complete disdain, that women are nothing more than a ranking and have little to no value over a certain age. He has lost all rights to be treated with respect.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I agree with Fozzy, but also, his looks do NOT stop him from spreading the horrible message...so to me, what he looks like is truly irrelevant to my irritation at his message.

(Plus I don't actually think he is ugly....he's just an average guy).

However, the women make a perfect point: if he's going to put himself out there like that along with a hateful message about how ugly and fat women are, I'm sure he would expect that kind of blow back. People (including women) literally worship him at his forum, so I'm sure he also doesn't care what others think of how he looks.


----------



## kristin2349

Doesn't he advocate "negging"?


----------



## Fozzy

Don't misunderstand me. My point isn't that I'm afraid of anyone hurting Athol's feelings. 

My point is that there are a ton of guys out there that could stumble across a picture of a guy on the internet--not having any idea who he is, compare themselves to him in their own mind while he is soundly thrashed based on his looks.

There are probably hundreds of lurkers reading this stuff. I'm just saying we should probably keep them in mind when we go crazy calling people ugly.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Kristen - Yes he does. He also advocates dread game, which means deliberately making your wife or girlfriend jealous by showing her other women have interest in you (and he suggests you make it up if you don't have true examples). He also says that all women are sl*ts who just want your jizz to make a baby with you, but we will all dump you for the next bigger better deal as soon as we can get away with it (ie: hypergamy). Plus many other horrible things.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Fozzy said:


> Don't misunderstand me. My point isn't that I'm afraid of anyone hurting Athol's feelings.
> 
> My point is that there are a ton of guys out there that could stumble across a picture of a guy on the internet--not having any idea who he is, compare themselves to him in their own mind while he is soundly thrashed based on his looks.
> 
> There are probably hundreds of lurkers reading this stuff. I'm just saying we should probably keep them in mind when we go crazy calling people ugly.


I agree, but I also hope you and other kind men here would remind the guys of the same thing when you see them doing it.


----------



## Dollystanford

I think your idea of 'soundly thrashed' and mine are very different


----------



## kristin2349

Faithful Wife said:


> Kristen - Yes he does. He also advocates dread game, which means deliberately making your wife or girlfriend jealous by showing her other women have interest in you (and he suggests you make it up if you don't have true examples). He also says that all women are sl*ts who just want your jizz to make a baby with you, but we will all dump you for the next bigger better deal as soon as we can get away with it (ie: hypergamy). Plus many other horrible things.


Yes, I read the blog he wrote on this subject. Bragging about keeping his wife aware of her "dimished value" because 20 somethings with "high SMV" are checking him out.

If he was "Joe Schmo" and his picture was posted with no negative association, I don't think there would be negative comments about his looks. He has by nature of his books and blogs invited just this sort of commentary though.


----------



## GTdad

kristin2349 said:


> Yes, I read the blog he wrote on this subject. Bragging about keeping his wife aware of her "dimished value" because 20 somethings with "high SMV" are checking him out.


That's an offensive message, no doubt. The message I got out of his stuff is that I needed to get off my ass, be the best me possible, and become an active participant in my marriage, and it was a message I sorely needed to hear. So the dichotomy is hard to reconcile for me. And I hope no one would lump me among the stereotypical "red-pillers".

Or maybe some of you do. That would be interesting to discover as well.


----------



## Brigit

Dollystanford said:


> He's not my type, he might be someone else's
> Who cares? I'm nearly 40, I have no sex rank anyway right?


Priceless. :flowerkitty:


----------



## Brigit

Holland said:


> I would usually agree with this. However this is a guy that makes money out of teaching other men how to treat women with complete disdain, that women are nothing more than a ranking and have little to no value over a certain age. He has lost all rights to be treated with respect.



~Amen~


----------



## Brigit

Fozzy said:


> Don't misunderstand me. My point isn't that I'm afraid of anyone hurting Athol's feelings.
> 
> My point is that there are a ton of guys out there that could stumble across a picture of a guy on the internet--not having any idea who he is, compare themselves to him in their own mind while he is soundly thrashed based on his looks.
> 
> There are probably hundreds of lurkers reading this stuff. I'm just saying we should probably keep them in mind when we go crazy calling people ugly.


I understand that. I really do. But you know this guy is teaching men to act like Narcissistic Sociopaths and every action has a reaction. Here's Karma coming back @ him.


----------



## Brigit

Faithful Wife said:


> Kristen - Yes he does. He also advocates dread game, which means deliberately making your wife or girlfriend jealous by showing her other women have interest in you (and he suggests you make it up if you don't have true examples). He also says that all women are sl*ts who just want your jizz to make a baby with you, but we will all dump you for the next bigger better deal as soon as we can get away with it (ie: hypergamy). Plus many other horrible things.


Ha! I've always wanted a husband and NEVER wanted children. 

(We probably should stop talking about him. We're just promoting his stuff.)


----------



## Faithful Wife

GTdad said:


> That's an offensive message, no doubt. The message I got out of his stuff is that I needed to get off my ass, be the best me possible, and become an active participant in my marriage, and it was a message I sorely needed to hear. So the dichotomy is hard to reconcile for me. And I hope no one would lump me among the stereotypical "red-pillers".
> 
> Or maybe some of you do. That would be interesting to discover as well.


Many guys have mansplained to me here that MMSL is for men who are already down in the pit of despair, and that Athol is trying to appeal to them...and that's why for a time it is ok for him to write such disparaging things about women. I've been told that since most men who find MMSL feel powerless against women or that women control their lives, the goal of MMSL is to give those men their power back and part of this is to tear women down off the pedastals men have put them on.

I still don't understand how a good man can look right past all the hateful stuff he says. I just don't get it.

If I ever read any book that started down the road of "men are actually stupid if you know how to manipulate them...they are just walking penises with wallets....c'mon girls I'll show you how to dupe every one of them to get what you want out of them....so sorry they have hurt you in the past but men will now be eating out of your hand and you can hurt THEM now, mwah ha ha!".....I would not only throw the book out I would seek out the author and tell him or her they are full of sh*t.


----------



## happy as a clam

Brigit said:


> I understand that. I really do. But you know this guy is teaching men to act like Narcissistic Sociopaths and every action has a reaction. Here's Karma coming back @ him.


There are a LOTof men on this board who say that MMSLP helped them improve their marriages tremendously. I'm not sticking up for the book (I've never read much of it) or Athol Kay (never met him). But many of the posters on this site who have benefitted seem like really nice men and not Narcissistic Sociopaths at all. I'm sure they would not agree with that characterization. 

The book is like anything else... Take what works and toss the rest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kristin2349

GTdad said:


> That's an offensive message, no doubt. The message I got out of his stuff is that I needed to get off my ass, be the best me possible, and become an active participant in my marriage, and it was a message I sorely needed to hear. So the dichotomy is hard to reconcile for me. And I hope no one would lump me among the stereotypical "red-pillers".
> 
> Or maybe some of you do. That would be interesting to discover as well.



I would not lump you into that stereotype GTdad, you obviously took the part of his message that you found useful and left the rest. Many men are not able to do that and adopt the whole philosophy. 

You can pretty much tell who has swallowed the "red-pill" it is sort of self evident in almost every post.


----------



## GTdad

Faithful Wife said:


> I've been told that since most men who find MMSL feel powerless against women or that women control their lives, the goal of MMSL is to give those men their power back and part of this is to tear women down off the pedastals men have put them on.


I love women, and have never looked upon them as an "enemy". My problem was that I was drifting in the marriage, but I knew even at the time that that was on me, not my wife.

Yes, I missed all of this hatred. I can't explain why, since you and other women here have made it very clear that it's there.


----------



## Dogbert

The same can be said about some feminists. If I make an assertion that a certain feminist is anti-male because of something she said, but I don't bring something in the form of quotes and the books or websites where they appear, then I'm just indulging in hearsay. Something like this:



Robin Morgan said:


> "I feel that ‘man-hating’ is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class-hatred against the class that is oppressing them."


Or



Ti-Grace Atkinson. said:


> "The institution of sexual intercourse is anti-feminist."


Not satisfied? How about this one?



Sally Miller Gearhart said:


> "The proportion of men must be reduced to and maintained at approximately 10% of the human race."


And my favorite.



Treena Shapiro said:


> "I do want to be able to explain to a 9-year-old boy in terms he will understand why I think it’s OK for girls to wear shirts that revel in their superiority over boys."


This stuff doesn't help bring us men the warm and fuzzy feelings for feminists, does it?

It would be helpful if when accusing Athol of being a misogynist, to please bring quotes and/or pages of his book and/or website. Then it would make it easier for us to call him out on it. Throw us a bone ladies, please.


----------



## ConanHub

Dogbert said:


> The same can be said about some feminists. If I make an assertion that a certain feminist is anti-male because of something she said, but I don't bring something in the form of quotes and the books or websites where they appear, then I'm just indulging in hearsay. Something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Or
> 
> 
> 
> Not satisfied? How about this one?
> 
> 
> 
> And my favorite.
> 
> 
> 
> This stuff doesn't help bring us men the warm and fuzzy feelings for feminists, does it?
> 
> It would be helpful if when accusing Athol of being a misogynist, to please bring quotes and/or pages of his book and/or website. Then it would make it easier for us to call him out on it. Throw us a bone ladies, please.


This subject would seriously make a good thread. The OP of this thread is worth continued exploration as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tonygunner007

My Just friends' (g) turn offs...

- Big tummy
- Unkept beards
- Body odor
- Smelly mouth
- Broad Chest with tiny waist


----------



## kristin2349

Dogbert said:


> It would be helpful if when accusing Athol of being a misogynist, to please bring quotes and/or pages of his book and/or website. Then it would make it easier for us to call him out on it. Throw us a bone ladies, please.


FaithfulWife did link pages to his website Dogbert 10 pages back, but the bone was thrown.


----------



## EllisRedding

Just to break up all this serious talk


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dogbert said:


> The same can be said about some feminists. If I make an assertion that a certain feminist is anti-male because of something she said, but I don't bring something in the form of quotes and the books or websites where they appear, then I'm just indulging in hearsay. Something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Or
> 
> 
> 
> Not satisfied? How about this one?
> 
> 
> 
> And my favorite.
> 
> 
> 
> This stuff doesn't help bring us men the warm and fuzzy feelings for feminists, does it?
> 
> It would be helpful if when accusing Athol of being a misogynist, to please bring quotes and/or pages of his book and/or website. Then it would make it easier for us to call him out on it. Throw us a bone ladies, please.


Dogbert....I don't know why this always happens.

I speak out against the red pill, I say absolutely nothing about feminism, yet some guy always pops in with "but feminism is hateful, too!"

The two have nothing to do each other as far as this discussion is concerned. There are no feminists here complaining about MMSL (at least no one who is flying that flag as their platform). 

So why can't we take issue with red pill or MMSL without anti-feminism coming up? No one (here, now) is promoting feminist extreme opinions. Why is it even brought up?

As for quoting MMSL and the hateful crap....I can do it more if you want. I have done a lot of that in the past.


----------



## always_alone

Dogbert said:


> This stuff doesn't help bring us men the warm and fuzzy feelings for feminists, does it?


Oh my, those are some pretty awful quotes!! Terrible!

Good thing that such views and attitudes are not widely promoted all over TAM, as they are definitely over the line man-hating.

Unfortunately, we cannot say the same of the MMSL stuff, which is promoted to every man who comes here, and when endless quotes are put up to demonstrate the misogyny, the typical reaction is to shrug and say, so?


----------



## tbk

I admire the honesty from the women in this thread. I didn't read all the thread but noticed someone (or a few) said short in being less than 6'. Just thought that was interesting (and yes, I am 5'10" with big muscular legs and butt...lol).

Also, it's interesting how people are different. Someone said a turn off on "big pendulum balls" or something like that. On the few times that mine hang really low, my wife loves them..lol.


----------



## Brigit

EllisRedding said:


> Just to break up all this serious talk


:rofl:

I had to look close.


----------



## GTdad

tbk said:


> Someone said a turn off on "big pendulum balls" or something like that. On the few times that mine hang really low, my wife loves them..lol.


Gravity and time can sure effect more than just boobs ...


----------



## always_alone

GTdad said:


> Yes, I missed all of this hatred. I can't explain why, since you and other women here have made it very clear that it's there.


But you do see it now that it's been pointed out?

It blows my mind how many men are able to read this and be so oblivious to the hatred in it. My theory is that the views expressed are actually so much a part of our cultural backdrop that it is simply taken for granted that this is the way things are.

Which depresses me to no end ...


----------



## Brigit

Faithful Wife said:


> Dogbert....I don't know why this always happens.
> 
> I speak out against the red pill, I say absolutely nothing about feminism, yet some guy always pops in with "but feminism is hateful, too!"
> 
> The two have nothing to do each other as far as this discussion is concerned. There are no feminists here complaining about MMSL (at least no one who is flying that flag as their platform).
> 
> So why can't we take issue with red pill or MMSL without anti-feminism coming up? No one (here, now) is promoting feminist extreme opinions. Why is it even brought up?
> 
> As for quoting MMSL and the hateful crap....I can do it more if you want. I have done a lot of that in the past.


Exactly. There are plenty of issues that make the world harsh and corrupt.

Puppy Mills, a concentration camp for helpless animals.
Homelessness
World Hunger

(You get the idea.)

From the quotes and links that FW has given us it's obvious this man is advocating: "Keep your woman down, then she won't leave." It's scary.


----------



## kristin2349

EllisRedding said:


> Just to break up all this serious talk


You know us ladies love a great shoe!:rofl:


----------



## GTdad

always_alone said:


> But you do see it now that it's been pointed out?
> 
> It blows my mind how many men are able to read this and be so oblivious to the hatred in it. My theory is that the views expressed are actually so much a part of our cultural backdrop that it is simply taken for granted that this is the way things are.
> 
> Which depresses me to no end ...


I'd have to re-read the book with a more critical eye, I guess, but I don't own a copy.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Brigit said:


> Ha! I've always wanted a husband and NEVER wanted children.
> 
> (We probably should stop talking about him. We're just promoting his stuff.)


But also, and I've said this a few times already, Athol Kay did not invent the red pill. He just jumped on the band wagon that was already rolling long and took standard PUA game literature and turned it into something men could use in marriage to game their wives.

He is just one of hundreds of dudes with hateful books and blogs.

The reason red pill came up at all was because it is standard red pill rhetoric to claim that women don't care about physical attraction like men do. From that root assumption, the PUA/red pill crap flows forward....they want men to believe they can add numbers to their sex rank to make up for lack of physical attraction.

I would like this stereo type eradicated. Simply because it isn't true. But also so that the PUA/red pill snake oil sales men will not be able to convince men to buy their nonsense.


----------



## Faithful Wife

GTdad said:


> I'd have to re-read the book with a more critical eye, I guess, but I don't own a copy.


Thank you for even being open to what we are saying, GTdad. That counts for a lot. You get:

:allhail:


----------



## Dogbert

The reason I bring feminist is because we have members who pride themselves of being feminists. If there is good in feminism, despite some of its hateful and militant elements who still are part of women's studies, then the same can be said about Athol and other controversial male authors writings.



Faithful Wife said:


> As for quoting MMSL and the hateful crap....I can do it more if you want. I have done a lot of that in the past.


Or if you don't want to retype your posts where you point the hateful MMSL quotes from Athol, then perhaps a link to those posts would suffice. What do you say?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dogbert said:


> The reason I bring feminist is because we have members who pride themselves of being feminists. If there is good in feminism, despite some of its hateful and militant elements who still are part of women's studies, then the same can be said about Athol and other controversial male authors writings.
> 
> 
> 
> Or if you don't want to retype your posts where you point the hateful MMSL quotes from Athol, then perhaps a link to those posts would suffice. What do you say?


I think every feminist here would rail against the quotes you posted. I bet you will not find ONE woman here who agrees with them.

Yet I know there are dozens of men here who will agree with hateful quotes from MMSL.

So how, again, HOW is it related here at TAM? Or please point me to any post from anyone that indicates the poster agrees with any of the quotes you posted.

When I get home tonight I'd be happy to quote you a whole lot of hateful stuff from his book and blog. I will start a separate thread for it, though.


----------



## ConanHub

kristin2349 said:


> You know us ladies love a great shoe!:rofl:


That is a pretty good sized "shoe". LOL!&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GTdad

Faithful Wife said:


> The reason red pill came up at all was because it is standard red pill rhetoric to claim that women don't care about physical attraction like men do.


I can only take that on faith, because I have no idea whether that's a tenet or not. But my recollection is that MMSLP advocates for men to get in shape, not only because it's a smart, healthy choice but also to build attraction on the part of our wives. And that's just common sense, really.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I'm all for common sense self-help, but not when it is wrapped in a turd.

Again, I would similarly reject any book for women that was wrapped in a turd.


----------



## staarz21

ConanHub said:


> This subject would seriously make a good thread. *The OP of this thread is worth continued exploration as well.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm so very sorry. I am the OP, but I am confused. I think I might have missed something.


----------



## Dogbert

Faithful Wife said:


> I think every feminist here would rail against the quotes you posted. I bet you will not find ONE woman here who agrees with them.


So far you are the only one who has gone on record.



> Yet I know there are dozens of men here who will agree with hateful quotes from MMSL.


Care to name names?



> So how, again, HOW is it related here at TAM? Or please point me to any post from anyone that indicates the poster agrees with any of the quotes you posted.


Because many women were exposed to these militant feminists through women studies in college. To say that reading these feminist authors as part of a reading curriculum did not affect how they view relationships with men and marriage is wishful thinking.



> When I get home tonight I'd be happy to quote you a whole lot of hateful stuff from his book and blog. I will start a separate thread for it, though.


I look forward to it.


----------



## always_alone

GTdad said:


> I can only take that on faith, because I have no idea whether that's a tenet or not. But my recollection is that MMSLP advocates for men to get in shape, not only because it's a smart, healthy choice but also to build attraction on the part of our wives. And that's just common sense, really.


It also blows my mind that this book is what, say 300 pages, and yet the only thing sentiment of reason that comes out of it, indeed, the only thing that supposedly justifies its existence is that it tells men to "get in shape".


----------



## Dollystanford

I was exposed to militant feminism at university. And yet I like a dominant man in bed and wear dresses and high heels. Mercy me, do I even exist?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

lucy999 said:


> big, pendulous balls


:lol::rofl:


----------



## GTdad

always_alone said:


> It also blows my mind that this book is what, say 300 pages, and yet the only thing sentiment of reason that comes out of it, indeed, the only thing that supposedly justifies its existence is that it tells men to "get in shape".


Well, that and making sure the *****es remember their place.


KIDDING!


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dogbert said:


> *So far you are the only one who has gone on record.*
> 
> 
> 
> Care to name names?
> 
> 
> 
> Because many women were exposed to these militant feminists through women studies in college. To say that reading these feminist authors as part of a reading curriculum did not affect how they view relationships with men and marriage is wishful thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> I look forward to it.


Ok would other women PLEASE join in to tell Dogbert that you disagree with the hateful quotes on his post # 304 on this thread.

*Always Alone and I have both already said so, but apparently we have to openly state that we are against hate speech, or else it is assumed we will blindly follow and agree with anyone who claims to be a feminist and every word they say.*

As for who has read what, I personally have never read any of those quotes nor any of those authors and have never taken a women's study class.

So you can take your assumption about my feelings based on that type of literature away now, thanks.

And naming names....well so far bandit has come on this thread to tell us that since we are women we can't possibly understand MMSL and all of it's merit. I hesitate to name anyone else since it will simply bring forth a firestorm against me. But men who are for MMSL know who they are, they can come forward if they want. The book is hawked here by plenty of them, are you going to try to pretend you don't know that already? Like those guys don't want it known they are for it? They clearly don't care, I don't know who you think you are protecting. :scratchhead:


----------



## Dollystanford

Of course I don't agree with ridiculous radical feminist quotes. They are just that - radicals on the fringes of a legitimate movement.


----------



## Ikaika

I came to a realization a long time ago as a highly cognitive species, there are things that will no doubt attract any of us to the opposite sex (caveat heterosexuals). However our individual association of particulars (specific appearances) will make us less or more inclined toward one type or individual than another. It may have as much to do with physical attributes as it does to our actions. So, I'm completely comfortable with these types of threads. I am far from being gods gift to women, but I'm comfortable in knowing after 20 years in my advancing age I'm still turned on by my wife and vise versa. So, a playful thread that provides likes and dislikes, is just that, a person's preference. I think we should keep it playful. If someone wants to make some scientific dissertation out of the rankings of another, that usual shoots way over my head. I'm not that smart. 

Of course good hygiene habits seems more behavioral traits than purely appearance, and as a biologist I can understand this one. Many of us in my field of study would say we are picking a mate based on a strong immune system (which could be interpreted by these hygiene appearances). But, what do I know, I'm just a nerdy scientist.


----------



## always_alone

Dogbert said:


> So far you are the only one who has gone on record.


I guess you missed my post, where I explicitly criticized those quotes?


There is, or rather *was*, a certain breed of radical feminist that had some despicable attitudes towards men. No doubt. And these views *should* be criticized.

Do remember, however that most of the quotes you cited came from the 1970s and these views are indeed widely disparaged by feminists and non-feminists alike. 

Also, it's perfectly understandable that you would head to an anti-feminist MRA site to pull some quotes to establish your point, but also try to remember that a whole lot of them are taken completely out of context, are from fictional works, or are from authors that themselves have changed their views over time. 

Just sayin'


----------



## happy as a clam

Ok, turn offs for me include:

Small hands/thin fingers
Weak jaw/no chin
Bad breath
Greasy hair
Nasal or whiny voice
Long fingernails or toenails
Nose picker

(That last one is an immediate Game-Over for me)
:lol:


----------



## pragmaster

By MMSLP are you referring to the Married Man's Sex Life Primer?

The book was worth the $15 and 9 business day wait time.

I highly recommend to any married man, or couple.

Unfortunately I picked up the book too late in my marriage and there was nothing I could do to change it around, but moving forward, this book is like my bible for monogamous relationships. 

I actually prefer the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. It gets to the core of the whole "nice guy" issue where as the MMSLP gives a great overview of basic biology comparisons and how that impacts relationships.


----------



## Ikaika

happy as a clam said:


> Ok, turn offs for me include:
> 
> 
> 
> Small hands/thin fingers
> 
> Weak jaw/no chin
> 
> Bad breath
> 
> Greasy hair
> 
> Nasal or whiny voice
> 
> Long fingernails or toenails
> 
> Nose picker
> 
> 
> 
> (That last one is an immediate Game-Over for me)
> 
> :lol:



But what if I had to get one of those crusty ones out.


----------



## always_alone

Dogbert said:


> Originally Posted by Treena Shapiro
> "I do want to be able to explain to a 9-year-old boy in terms he will understand why I think it’s OK for girls to wear shirts that revel in their superiority over boys."


The source of this quote, for example, is here: 
Making fun of boys totally fair | The Honolulu Advertiser | Hawaii's Newspaper

I will leave it up to others to judge for themselves how man-hating it truly is.


----------



## always_alone

GTdad said:


> Well, that and making sure the *****es remember their place.
> 
> 
> KIDDING!


And it might've been funny, except that it really is the main message of the book.

Okay, I will bow out of this threadjack and look forward to FW's thread on why MMSLP is actually a pile of misogynist crud.


----------



## happy as a clam

Ikaika said:


> But what if I had to get one of those crusty ones out.


Aaagggggghhhh!!! :rofl:

Saline nose drops to loosen that puppy up, then blow like crazy!

:lol:

P.S. That's part of the appeal of big hands... They can't fit their big fingers in their nostrils!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

GTdad said:


> Well, that and making sure the *****es remember their place.
> 
> KIDDING!


Oh I know my place just fine....sittin' on my husband's face.


----------



## GTdad

Faithful Wife said:


> Oh I know my place just fine....sittin' on my husband's face.


Makes for a few typos in your posts, I imagine.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Exactly, typing and getting oral at the same time is quite a skill set.


----------



## Holland

I also think the man hating quotes are vile and would never support this type of thinking.


----------



## Ikaika

always_alone said:


> The source of this quote, for example, is here:
> 
> Making fun of boys totally fair | The Honolulu Advertiser | Hawaii's Newspaper
> 
> 
> 
> I will leave it up to others to judge for themselves how man-hating it truly is.



My hometown paper made TAM


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> From that root assumption, the PUA/red pill crap flows forward....they want men to believe they can add numbers to their sex rank to make up for lack of physical attraction.
> 
> I would like this stereo type eradicated. Simply because it isn't true. But also so that the PUA/red pill snake oil sales men will not be able to convince men to buy their nonsense.


Yeah, and wealthy old wrinkly chubby men very often have gorgeous, much younger wives and girlfriends because they're good looking old wrinkly chubby men. Makes total sense now thanks. 

You're just wrong here FW. Women value a sh*t ton of things more highly than looks. That's where the PUA view comes from.

And yes, one can easily make up for a lack of physical attraction because sexual attraction is only partly physical. Some of the sexiest men aren't amazing physical specimens, they just know that the brain is a woman's largest sex organ. Personality, humor, wit, and intelligence will all generally get a woman riled up better for a guy with average Joe body than an Adonis with the lack thereof.

Hell, you see it on this forum all the time on this subject, with women saying "I don't care how good looking he is if his attitude isn't right. A lot of attraction is about how he carries himself."

You can't have it both ways my dear. 

Besides, I can test the effect of things other than my appearance any day... all I have to do is drive around in my Porsche vs driving around in my truck. Night and day difference in level of interest from women. I somehow get better looking in the Porsche. It's inexplicable!!


----------



## Brigit

happy as a clam said:


> Ok, turn offs for me include:
> 
> Small hands/thin fingers
> Weak jaw/no chin
> Bad breath
> Greasy hair
> Nasal or whiny voice
> Long fingernails or toenails
> Nose picker
> 
> (That last one is an immediate Game-Over for me)
> :lol:


This thread is hilarious. I'm reading it getting *so* angry about this misogynistic author and then someone goes back to the original theme and starts listing yucky guy characteristics.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

I'm always confused why these threads focus on negative things. Wouldn't it be better to rank how you value the qualities you find attractive?

Although, it's still just a crapshoot around here. Everyone will say money/success/status doesn't matter at all, yet guys have example after example, and experience, of just how much influence they actually have.

TAM is informative for a lot of things, and not so informative for others. Here, everyone's hubby has a big D, a good personality doesn't make you sexier, money/status is irrelevant and sex is daily on average. And y'all think the PUAs are full of crap. lol


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dvls knows I have him on ignore and will not respond to any of his posts, precisely because he is an advocate of all that bull crap.


----------



## Brigit

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Yeah, and wealthy old wrinkly chubby men very often have gorgeous, much younger wives and girlfriends because they're good looking old wrinkly chubby men. Makes total sense now thanks.
> 
> You're just wrong here FW. Women value a sh*t ton of things more highly than looks. That's where the PUA view comes from.
> 
> And yes, one can easily make up for a lack of physical attraction because sexual attraction is only partly physical. Some of the sexiest men aren't amazing physical specimens, they just know that the brain is a woman's largest sex organ. Personality, humor, wit, and intelligence will all generally get a woman riled up better for a guy with average Joe body than an Adonis with the lack thereof.
> 
> Hell, you see it on this forum all the time on this subject, with women saying "I don't care how good looking he is if his attitude isn't right. A lot of attraction is about how he carries himself."
> 
> You can't have it both ways my dear.
> 
> Besides, I can test the effect of things other than my appearance any day... all I have to do is drive around in my Porsche vs driving around in my truck. Night and day difference in level of interest from women. I somehow get better looking in the Porsche. It's inexplicable!!


My guess is you're a big fan of the author. I suppose you fit his target audience. Makes sense.


----------



## EleGirl

Dogbert said:


> The same can be said about some feminists. If I make an assertion that a certain feminist is anti-male because of something she said, but I don't bring something in the form of quotes and the books or websites where they appear, then I'm just indulging in hearsay. Something like this:
> 
> Or
> 
> Not satisfied? How about this one?
> 
> And my favorite.
> 
> This stuff doesn't help bring us men the warm and fuzzy feelings for feminists, does it?
> 
> It would be helpful if when accusing Athol of being a misogynist, to please bring quotes and/or pages of his book and/or website. Then it would make it easier for us to call him out on it. Throw us a bone ladies, please.


Yep, you are right. There are some petty women who self-identify as feminists who say some really stupid, mean, disgusting things.

You might also note that not I, (nor any other woman on here) is telling just about every woman who joins TAM to go read Robin Morgan, Ti-Grace Atkinson, Sally Miller Gearhart and Treena Shapiro. We don’t tell them that the hate spewed by them will make them real women.

.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ele I think you meant petty, not pretty?


----------



## Dollystanford

Some women value things a lot more than looks. Personally, I'm pretty shallow and all those other things are fine but if they don't come wrapped in an enticing package I'm not interested


----------



## Ikaika

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I'm always confused why these threads focus on negative things. Wouldn't it be better to rank how you value the qualities you find attractive?
> 
> 
> 
> Although, it's still just a crapshoot around here. Everyone will say money/success/status doesn't matter at all, yet guys have example after example, and experience, of just how much influence they actually have.
> 
> 
> 
> TAM is informative for a lot of things, and not so informative for others. Here, everyone's hubby has a big D, a good personality doesn't make you sexier, money/status is irrelevant and sex is daily on average. And y'all think the PUAs are full of crap. lol



I think that one has been done, the positive attributes. 

More interesting would be thread (not sure it has been done) on who is your famous doppelgänger.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

A big fan? He's alright. I'm not much a fan of calling anyone a ****. But the short of what he advocates is that the wife has lost attraction to him, because he's no longer the person he was when they met. So most of what he advocates is being that guy again.

FW gets her panties in a twist because he uses bad words and the aim is more sex.

I've always made the same logical case on the issue of attraction: If you find a guy who speaks well, has a charming personality, wit and intelligence... but a mediocre body, you'll be more attracted to him than a smoking hot guy with a mediocre personality. The non-physical traits matter quite a bit, and they can be improved the most. So no matter where a guy ranks in the scheme of things, he can move up or down marginally according to these things.

Smoking hot sexy physical guy is less attractive than his looks would suggest if he's a BORING, clingy, socially awkward idiot. Mediocre physical guy is more attractive than his looks would otherwise suggest if he's fun, intelligent and relatable.


----------



## Dollystanford

So you think it's easier for a guy to develop a witty personality than to drop some weight and muscle up?


----------



## Ikaika

Dollystanford said:


> So you think it's easier for a guy to develop a witty personality than to drop some weight and muscle up?



So that is not the same as a twitty personality is it? Dang I knew they weren't hot for me


----------



## southbound

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Everyone will say money/success/status doesn't matter at all, yet guys have example after example, and experience, of just how much influence they actually have.


From experience and observation, I feel there is truth to this. I've even started threads about how "stuff" is attractive to people, but apparently it's not to anybody that responds to the topic. 

I don't believe that every woman is looking to marry a rich guy, that's not what I see, but people want at least their level. It's more frustrating when personal circumstances put you in their level, but you don't care to live that way. 

In other words, a man may have a college degree and make good money, but if he chooses to live the simple life, it's not as attractive as if he expressed his situation a little more. 

And I don't see too many female lawyers hooking up with a garbage man, even though he may be a great guy and good looking. 

No disrespect intended, but just observations where I live.


----------



## Faithful Wife

southbound said:


> In other words, a man may have a college degree and make good money, *but if he chooses to live the simple life, it's not as attractive as if he expressed his situation a little more. *
> 
> And I don't see too many female lawyers hooking up with a garbage man, even though he may be a great guy and good looking.


Not as attractive to whom? We have women right here who want a man who does not live a showy lifestyle regardless of how much money he has. So you are saying that no woman anywhere will find a guy attractive unless he flashes his money?

And if you are not saying that, then some women do find him attractive, don't they? Why do those women's opinion not count? The guy himself will find the right woman, so who cares if some other women didn't find him attractive because he wasn't showy enough?

As for female lawyers...I know a female (very prominent and rich) dentist who is literally with a hunky garbage man. They're both very happy with each other. You may want to say this is one odd ball example, but I actually have many other examples of successful females with less successful males. Not all of the males are hunks. Most are younger than the woman, though. All of them earn less.


----------



## EleGirl

WandaJ said:


> I guess this guy is in permament middle life crisis, dreaming of 20-yo old. You know what ladies, let him have it. He is soooo about biology of sex, he forgets that the force behind sex and making 20 years so hot is in part their fertility (we are talking about pure biology here, ok, the way he does).
> So, he leaves his old lady of 40, and goes for a nice hot girl of twenty. They are having fun for few years, and then her biology calls for babies. And then this guy, now 45 or fifty finds himself changing diapers in the middle of the night and pushing stroller in the park. And getting compliments on his "grandchildren" from strangers....
> 
> His old lady ex-wife has her children out of the house and is enjoying her freedom and full night beauty sleeps. karma is sweet
> 
> Happy Saturday!time for margerita, ladies!


Unfortunately, just about every man who joins TAM is told to read his material and follow it. It seems to be the TAM manual for how a man should think and live. 

Since his material is openly promoted here on TAM at a large scale, it is a very valid topic for discussion here.


----------



## Dogbert

Faithful Wife said:


> Ele I think you meant petty, not pretty?


Some can be both.


----------



## Faithful Wife

southbound said:


> In other words, a man may have a college degree and make good money, but if he chooses to live the simple life, it's not as attractive as if he expressed his situation a little more.


Also, what does the man in your example look like, how tall is he, how muscular?

Because if you are describing a man who isn't good looking and then wondering why women aren't throwing themselves at him....then perhaps the "reason" is obvious to the women who are around him. And perhaps the "reason" is not that he didn't express his situation a little more.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dogbert said:


> Some can be both.


How many more women do you need to hear from before you understand that no woman here agrees with those hateful quotes you posted?


----------



## Dollystanford

Hairy shaft


----------



## happy as a clam

Dollystanford said:


> Hairy shaft


:lol: 

This cracked me up!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

I personally value quite a number of things above looks.

For example, no matter how gorgeous he is, if he speaks favorably of MMSL, he automatically drops to a zero on my attractiveness scale.

Similarly, if he uses cash and flash to attract women, then complains that we are all gold-diggers. 

But, that said, I most absolutely do have physical turn-offs that would stop me cold, no matter how wonderful he was in all other respects.


----------



## Brigit

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> FW gets her panties in a twist because he uses bad words and the aim is more sex.


FW quoted very nasty, hateful and cruel passages from his blog/book. He teaches men how to keep women down so they'll be insecure, fearful and not want to leave the relationship. It's sort of like brainwashing. That's what made her angry and that's what offends the women on this thread. 

You may not see it that way but we do.


----------



## Fozzy

They exist. But they ARE manageable


----------



## Faithful Wife

always_alone said:


> But, that said, I most absolutely do have physical turn-offs that would stop me cold, no matter how wonderful he was in all other respects.


And as I have said a few times now....not only do I require a certain amount of physical attraction, I also require:

*that the attraction is mutual

*that the man is not an idiot, misogynist, creep, jerk, PUA, MRA, red piller, or anything else that offends me to a great degree

*has to be witty, charming

*has to be kind to me, to children in general, to animals, to my mother

*and a whole lot of other things.....

So I find it odd that any man would try to believe that looks don't matter to us. I have met very few women who would trade a hunk in for a rich guy. The only ones who would are gold diggers and are going to dump the rich guy for someone else eventually.

But that doesn't mean the hunk has no other value....I don't know why men have to assume that a hunk is also brainless.

My husband is all of the good stuff, hunky, brainy, we have mutual attraction....why is it so hard to believe men like this exist? Most women here describe their husbands this way. It is just that we are not all attracted to the same type, so a hunk to me isn't necessarily one to everyone else.


----------



## Dogbert

Faithful Wife said:


> How many more women do you need to hear from before you understand that no woman here agrees with those hateful quotes you posted?


Ok, I'll shut up and be happy with officially 2 (EleGirl and you).

Don't forget to do your homework tonight. And no I won't accept, the dog deleted my hard drive.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Except you apparently missed Holland and Always Alone and Dolly.

I guess if you aren't going to read all the posts, what is the point?

Please don't insult us by assuming any of us agree with the hateful quotes you posted, and then not even read the women who speak out against it. Why would you want to believe that we are hateful, when no one here has ever said anything like those quotes, nor that we believe them?

Thanks for the straw man.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dogbert said:


> Don't forget to do your homework tonight. And no I won't accept, the dog deleted my hard drive.


Oh I will be happy to do this homework Dogbert...yet if you aren't even going to read the posts where women are against those hateful quotes you made, why would I think you will bother to read my new thread?

However, even if you don't, I'll still be happy to create the post and speak out against the bullsh*t that is red pill.


----------



## kristin2349

Dogbert said:


> Ok, I'll shut up and be happy with officially 2 (EleGirl and you).
> 
> Don't forget to do your homework tonight. And no I won't accept, the dog deleted my hard drive.


Umm add me to that list Dogbert, now tell us what turns you off in a Man's appearance


----------



## MountainRunner

EleGirl said:


> Unfortunately, *just about every man who joins TAM is told to read his material and follow it.* It seems to be the TAM manual for how a man should think and live.


Indeed. Hell....it was even suggested to me on more than one occasion...and I have absolutely no problem vying for a woman's affection(s). All I had to do is mention that my wife has no libido and out came the "you need to up your alpha and get her attention!" or the "She just isn't in to you anymore." garbage...When all this time, all she needed was a little HRT and she is back to jumping my bones on a regular basis...LOL! It is almost "pavlovian" in nature with all the canned responses. People are not all "cookie cut", so it isn't a "one size fits all" solution in every case.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cool so that's

me
Ele
Always Alone
Holland
Dolly 
Lila
kristen


There you go Dogbert....I think we deserve an apology for your post with the hateful quotes thrown into this discussion under the premise that any woman here agrees with them and that's why we hate red pill nonsense.


----------



## kristin2349

Lila said:


> Thanks for responding Fozzy...I've lived a sheltered life
> 
> So now my curiosity is getting the better or me....I wonder if laser hair removal would work on that part of the body???


Ouch! I got my underarms done it it hurts! The bikini area is on the menu for men and women where I go...If they neglected the shaft it would look like a wreath:rofl:


----------



## Faithful Wife

MountainRunner said:


> Indeed. Hell....it was even suggested to me on more than one occasion...and I have absolutely no problem vying for a woman's affection(s). All I had to do is mention that my wife has no libido and out came the "you need to up your alpha and get her attention!" or the "She just isn't in to you anymore." garbage...When all this time, all she needed was a little HRT and she is back to jumping my bones on a regular basis...LOL! It is almost "pavlovian" in nature with all the canned responses. People are not all "cookie cut", so it isn't a "one size fits all" solution in every case.


And yet MMSL is all about the one size fits all can of crap to shove us all into. We all behave and think exactly the same, according to MMSL.

And don't forget...there's no room in there for gays, trans, submissive men, or anyone else who isn't 100% straight and cis gender. No one else counts, according to them.


----------



## Dogbert

I will read them FW.


----------



## staarz21

Dogbert, count me in as one of the women that doesn't agree with the quotes. 

Those were just nasty and hateful. Anyone in their right mind wouldn't agree.


----------



## EleGirl

Faithful Wife said:


> Ele I think you meant petty, not pretty?


Argh... yes I fixed it.


----------



## Dogbert

Ladies, I want to start a thread on the Men's clubhouse to find out from the men who and who does not agree with Athol Kay's inflammatory statements.

For the record, I do not agree with his view and comments regarding women's attractiveness at different times of their lives.

I would appreciate if you could come up with a title thread and other ideas.


----------



## FizzBomb

Dogbert said:


> Ok, I'll shut up and be happy with officially 2 (EleGirl and you).
> 
> Don't forget to do your homework tonight. And no I won't accept, the dog deleted my hard drive.


Come on now Dogbert. No need to get your jocks in a twist.

Why don't you go and read Athol's blog and book yourself - once you untwist your undies. 

Add little ole me to the list FW 
Although for the life of me I don't know why we need to soothe and unruffle Dogbert's poor widdle feathers. :scratchhead: We're free to say how much we hate the misogynistic garbage peddled around so freely like its the gospel.


----------



## Dogbert

Lila said:


> "MMSLP, Misogynistic Bullcrap or Misunderstood Message"


Good title. Keep 'em comin'


----------



## Dogbert

FizzBomb said:


> Come on now Dogbert. No need to get your jocks in a twist.
> 
> Why don't you go and read Athol's blog and book yourself - once you untwist your undies.


I have but obviously I missed the one FW linked. 

BTW I don't wear undies. 



> Although for the life of me I don't know why we need to soothe and unruffle Dogbert's poor widdle feathers.


A tummy rub will do just fine.


----------



## FizzBomb

Dogbert said:


> I have but obviously I missed the one FW linked.
> 
> BTW I don't wear undies.


RAWR

Going Commando - mmmm, don't know whether to put that in pro's or con's


----------



## EleGirl

Faithful Wife said:


> Not as attractive to whom? We have women right here who want a man who does not live a showy lifestyle regardless of how much money he has. So you are saying that no woman anywhere will find a guy attractive unless he flashes his money?
> 
> And if you are not saying that, then some women do find him attractive, don't they? Why do those women's opinion not count? The guy himself will find the right woman, so who cares if some other women didn't find him attractive because he wasn't showy enough?
> 
> As for female lawyers...I know a female (very prominent and rich) dentist who is literally with a hunky garbage man. They're both very happy with each other. You may want to say this is one odd ball example, but I actually have many other examples of successful females with less successful males. Not all of the males are hunks. Most are younger than the woman, though. All of them earn less.


I work with a lot of women who are engineers, most with an MS degree. At least half of them are married to men with no degree, do blue collar work, etc. And yes these guys are all good looking, great guys.

I know a female doctor married to a police officer. He's a hunk. Police officer make squat here.

Just thought of another... another female doctor married to a guy who has a BA at most. He's been a SAHD for 20 years.. another really good looking guy, good guy.


----------



## EleGirl

Faithful Wife said:


> And yet MMSL is all about the one size fits all can of crap to shove us all into. We all behave and think exactly the same, according to MMSL.
> 
> And don't forget...there's no room in there for gays, trans, submissive men, or anyone else who isn't 100% straight and cis gender. No one else counts, according to them.


While I can see that part of MMSL that talks about a man improving himself, I don't get the need to insult and demean woman to do this. 

I'm wondering if the idea is that it's some kind of sport to get the guy to not only improve but to learn to look down on his wife and/or future gf/SO/wife. That way he can feel superior? Is that even necessary?

I'd be just as upset about anything that taught women to look at and manipulate men in the same way.


----------



## Dogbert

EleGirl said:


> I work with a lot of women who are engineers, most with an MS degree. At least half of them are married to men with no degree, do blue collar work, etc. And yes these guys are all good looking, great guys.
> 
> I know a female doctor married to a police officer. He's a hunk. Police officer make squat here.
> 
> Just thought of another... another female doctor married to a guy who has a BA at most. He's been a SAHD for 20 years.. another really good looking guy, good guy.


Sounds like you live in Garrison Keillor's Lake Wobegon 

*"Well, that's the news from Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average."*


----------



## EleGirl

Dogbert said:


> Sounds like you live in Garrison Keillor's Lake Wobegon
> 
> *"Well, that's the news from Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average."*


Oh, I know about people who have bad marriages too. But there are good ones as well... even good ones with men who are not rich and high achievers.


----------



## EllisRedding

EleGirl said:


> Unfortunately, just about every man who joins TAM is told to read his material and follow it. It seems to be the TAM manual for how a man should think and live.
> 
> Since his material is openly promoted here on TAM at a large scale, it is a very valid topic for discussion here.


ironically I have never heard of this guy or his book until the debate in this thread, so seems like a lot of promotion (unintended?) is going on  Can't really say anything strikes me of interest to read on the surface with the exception of just figuring out what all the hoopla is.


----------



## Fozzy

Lila said:


> :lol::rofl::lol::rofl:
> 
> I got 'the full monty' (minus a landing strip) done a few years ago with a Soprano XL laser. I didn't suffer the rubberband snapping feeling. Instead, certain _delicate_ parts felt like they were frying. The things we put up with for beauty.
> 
> So listen up guys...if we ladies can put up with the painful laser on the armpits and sensitive girl parts, you all can take care of the hairy shafts (I can't believe I typed 'hairy shafts' {giggle})


Whats the upside of having someone aim a deathstar at my tackle?

10 seconds with a disposable razor and the deed is done.


----------



## southbound

EleGirl said:


> I work with a lot of women who are engineers, most with an MS degree. At least half of them are married to men with no degree, do blue collar work, etc. And yes these guys are all good looking, great guys.
> 
> I know a female doctor married to a police officer. He's a hunk. Police officer make squat here.
> 
> Just thought of another... another female doctor married to a guy who has a BA at most. He's been a SAHD for 20 years.. another really good looking guy, good guy.


I'm sure it happens. I can't say that I know any where I live, but I know it happens. It's not always about just the amount of money either, but I mentioned the simple life earlier. 

Maybe I just grew up poorer than I thought, but mistakenly thought we were normal people. We didn't have a pool, an overly nice house, new cars, nor did we go on big vacations. Even though my money situation is beyond that now, I'm still satisfied with the simple life, and that just isn't a major attractor these days.

I guess it's just difficult to put in words what I mean. When I try to explain it, a lot of posters seem to disagree, but I know what I see where I'm from.

I work a white collar job, and I often hear people put down other people for not living as they do. I guess they assume I'm right with them, but I'm often not. 

I was waiting for a meeting to begin the other day. It was me and three other women waiting for the rest of the people to arrive. They talked among themselves, and I didn't realize people could be so particular and fancy. I knew I could never please any of them with my laid back ways.


----------



## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> ironically I have never heard of this guy or his book until the debate in this thread, so seems like a lot of promotion (unintended?) is going on  Can't really say anything strikes me of interest to read on the surface with the exception of just figuring out what all the hoopla is.


Do a forum search on MMSL. You will see how often it's suggested, especially in the CWI forum.

I had never heard of him or his site, books, etc. until I came here. Nor had I hear of PUA. For some reason that stuff is really pushed by some forum members. Athol is a member of TAM. I believe that some of the long-time posters here were posting when he was, before he wrote the books and hit the internet.


----------



## Brigit

EllisRedding said:


> ironically I have never heard of this guy or his book until the debate in this thread, so seems like a lot of promotion (unintended?) is going on  Can't really say anything strikes me of interest to read on the surface with the exception of just figuring out what all the hoopla is.


I've never heard of him either. But if he just wrote a book about how to be more attractive to women and didn't insult the crap out of them he wouldn't be getting this much attention. I suppose ripping women apart is a fantastic marketing tool. 

It is what it is. The best way to defuse this stuff is to stop talking about him. He's becoming boring anyway. 

Now Kip Harrington (Jon Snow) THAT'S INTERESTING!!!!!

"You know nothing Jon Snow."


----------



## EllisRedding

EleGirl said:


> Do a forum search on MMSL. You will see how often it's suggested, especially in the CWI forum.
> 
> I had never heard of him or his site, books, etc. until I came here. Nor had I hear of PUA. For some reason that stuff is really pushed by some forum members. Athol is a member of TAM. I believe that some of the long-time posters here were posting when he was, before he wrote the books and hit the internet.


I am ok, no need to search. Only chance for me to read the book would be for my wife to read it and give me a summary. Doesn't sound like that would be the best of options lol


----------



## EleGirl

Brigit said:


> I've never heard of him either. But if he just wrote a book about how to be more attractive to women and didn't insult the crap out of them he wouldn't be getting this much attention. I suppose ripping women apart is a fantastic marketing tool.
> 
> It is what it is. The best way to defuse this stuff is to stop talking about him. He's becoming boring anyway.
> 
> Now Kip Harrington (Jon Snow) THAT'S INTERESTING!!!!!
> 
> "You know nothing Jon Snow."


The only reason that he's being talked about on this thread is become his material is suggested to just about every guy who comes here. If those who have a problem with the book/site say nothing, then it becomes an endorsement.


----------



## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> I am ok, no need to search. Only chance for me to read the book would be for my wife to read it and give me a summary. Doesn't sound like that would be the best of options lol


Why would she have to read it and give you a summary?


----------



## Dogbert

If anybody is interested, I created a thread over by the Men's Clubhouse titled *MMSLP, Misogynistic Bullcrap or Misunderstood Message*. I also included a post from MEM11363 from a 3 year old thread titled *MMSL, taken with plenty of salt.*.

Kudos goes to Lila for the name of the title.


----------



## EllisRedding

EleGirl said:


> EllisRedding said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am ok, no need to search. Only chance for me to read the book would be for my wife to read it and give me a summary. Doesn't sound like that would be the best of options lol
> 
> 
> 
> Why would she have to read it and give you a summary?
Click to expand...

My wife likes to read and I rather do other stuff with my free time. Same thing in college when we were in honors English together, she would read and then fill me in









Although I am sure this will somehow make me anti feminist here


----------



## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> My wife likes to read and I rather do other stuff with my free time. Same thing in college when we were in honors English together, she would read and then fill me in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Although I am sure this will somehow make me anti feminist here*


:scratchhead:


----------



## EllisRedding

EleGirl said:


> EllisRedding said:
> 
> 
> 
> My wife likes to read and I rather do other stuff with my free time. Same thing in college when we were in honors English together, she would read and then fill me in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Although I am sure this will somehow make me anti feminist here*
Click to expand...

Man you guys are a serious bunch. Was a joke (i.e somehow someone would say having my wife read for me is me asserting male dominance or something like that...). 

Tough crowd in here


----------



## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> Man you guys are a serious bunch. Was a joke (i.e somehow someone would say having my wife read for me is me asserting male dominance or something like that...).
> 
> Tough crowd in here


Well around here you never know what's a joke.


----------



## Holland

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I'm always confused why these threads focus on negative things. Wouldn't it be better to rank how you value the qualities you find attractive?
> 
> Although, it's still just a crapshoot around here. *Everyone will say money/success/status doesn't matter at all, yet guys have example after example, and experience, of just how much influence they actually have.*
> 
> TAM is informative for a lot of things, and not so informative for others. Here, everyone's hubby has a big D, a good personality doesn't make you sexier, money/status is irrelevant and sex is daily on average. And y'all think the PUAs are full of crap. lol


I have said various times here that money and success are very important to me. Not shy about saying that at all.


----------



## lucy999

I got the joke, ellis


----------



## southbound

Holland said:


> I have said various times here that money and success are very important to me. Not shy about saying that at all.


Thanks for being honest. I knew I wasn't totally crazy in believing it was important to some women.


----------



## Brigit

southbound said:


> Thanks for being honest. I knew I wasn't totally crazy in believing it was important to some women.


Of course money and success are important. Make no mistake marriage is a business arrangement. It always has been and it always will be. Romantic love is relatively new in the overall picture of human culture. 

When you're in your 20's women KNOW that they're at their beauty prime. The smart ones think long term and won't waste their time on men who will make for bad providers. Women want the house, the car, the security etc. So when dating yeah if you're really bored and you just want to get out and have a nice dinner you MIGHT date someone who isn't "husband material" just for fun and never see him again. But you won't waste too much time on him. It's nothing personal. It's survival.


----------



## samyeagar

Brigit said:


> Of course money and success are important. Make no mistake marriage is a business arrangement. It always has been and it always will be. Romantic love is relatively new in the overall picture of human culture.
> 
> When you're in your 20's women KNOW that they're at their beauty prime. The smart ones think long term and won't waste their time on men who will make for bad providers. Women want the house, the car, the security etc. *So when dating yeah if you're really bored and you just want to get out and have a nice dinner you MIGHT date someone who isn't "husband material" just for fun and never see him again*. But you won't waste too much time on him. It's nothing personal. It's survival.


Of course you'll be up front and tell him you don't want to see him again BEFORE the check arrives, and insists on paying your half right? 

There is an entire subset of women, in online dating especially, who play their own type of PUA game with men...flirt a bit, get him to ask you out, get a free meal or two or more a week...all with no intention of ever seeing the guys again. There are several single professional women where I work that have openly talked about how to do it right. Very similar strategies, just turned around.


----------



## Brigit

samyeagar said:


> Of course you'll be up front and tell him you don't want to see him again BEFORE the check arrives, and insists on paying your half right?
> 
> There is an entire subset of women, in online dating especially, who play their own type of PUA game with men...flirt a bit, get him to ask you out, get a free meal or two or more a week...all with no intention of ever seeing the guys again. There are several single professional women where I work that have openly talked about how to do it right. Very similar strategies, just turned around.


What I'm about to say is not going to sit well with the men or women on this site but if I'm going to bother posting at all I might as well speak honestly. 

I never paid for a date. Remember, I'm 46 so when I was dating women didn't pay or at least none of my friends did. 

I did some things to men that weren't very nice. But there were plenty of men who spent money on me in hopes of getting laid and when that didn't happen my guess is they weren't too happy. I was VERY careful sexually and only slept with a couple of men who were long term boyfriends. I didn't want to catch any STD's. 

I worked at clubs and went to clubs; I had lots of opportunities and was able to be very picky. It was a fun time.


----------



## samyeagar

Brigit said:


> What I'm about to say is not going to sit well with the men or women on this site but if I'm going to bother posting at all I might as well speak honestly.
> 
> I never paid for a date. Remember, I'm 46 so when I was dating *women didn't pay or at least none of my friends did*.
> 
> I did some things to men that weren't very nice. But there were plenty of men who spent money on me in hopes of getting laid and when that didn't happen my guess is they weren't too happy. I was VERY careful sexually and only slept with a couple of men who were long term boyfriends. I didn't want to catch any STD's.
> 
> I worked at clubs and went to clubs; I had lots of opportunities and was able to be very picky. It was a fun time.


And they still don't for the most part. Sure, it is almost expected that the woman will volunteer to pay half now a days, but it is also expected that the man will kindly decline her offer and pay the whole thing. That's how the game is played. In a nutshell, it is intentionally using social norms and gender conditioning to ones advantage to get something from someone else. The root of PUA methodology.


----------



## Brigit

samyeagar said:


> And they still don't for the most part. Sure, it is almost expected that the woman will volunteer to pay half now a days, but it is also expected that the man will kindly decline her offer and pay the whole thing. That's how the game is played. In a nutshell, it is intentionally using social norms and gender conditioning to ones advantage to get something from someone else. The root of PUA methodology.


It's called courtship.


----------



## samyeagar

Brigit said:


> It's called courtship.


A social norm and expectation that you yourself admitted to taking advantage of for your own personal gain.


----------



## Brigit

samyeagar said:


> A social norm and expectation that you yourself admitted to taking advantage of for your own personal gain.


True enough but the men who dated me weren't thinking "I wonder what kind of engagement ring she'd like and does she prefer a house to a condo?"

Bluntly, they wanted to f*ck me and I wanted a nice night out. If there was mutual chemistry then there would be a second date. It's the dating ritual we all perform to find "the one."


----------



## happy as a clam

I'm 49 and I never had a problem or issue with paying on a date. If I went out with someone more than once and he paid for the first date, I almost always insisted on paying for the next. "Let me get this, you picked up the check last time." And I paid.



But honestly, I didn't "date" that much, so I guess it'a a moot point.


----------



## RoseAglow

southbound said:


> I'm sure it happens. I can't say that I know any where I live, but I know it happens. It's not always about just the amount of money either, but I mentioned the simple life earlier.
> 
> Maybe I just grew up poorer than I thought, but mistakenly thought we were normal people. We didn't have a pool, an overly nice house, new cars, nor did we go on big vacations. Even though my money situation is beyond that now, I'm still satisfied with the simple life, and that just isn't a major attractor these days.
> 
> I guess it's just difficult to put in words what I mean. When I try to explain it, a lot of posters seem to disagree, but I know what I see where I'm from.
> 
> I work a white collar job, and I often hear people put down other people for not living as they do. I guess they assume I'm right with them, but I'm often not.
> 
> I was waiting for a meeting to begin the other day. It was me and three other women waiting for the rest of the people to arrive. They talked among themselves, and I didn't realize people could be so particular and fancy. I knew I could never please any of them with my laid back ways.


You are coming across a segment of the population who are more materialistic. My MIL/SIL are much more materialistic than I am. They like luxury cars, Coach bags, etc. It's not an obsession for them or anything, it's just that they put a higher value on nice cars, nice purses, etc. than I do. They are probably a bit over the middle. There are people who are much more materialistic than they are. I am on the low scale. It's just personal preference. 

Before I got married, I dated some men with some cash. I don't think I ever dated a "1%" but definitely have dated "2-3%" in the tax tier. One guy showed me a tax stub because most people, upon hearing what he did for living, didn't believe him. He paid more in taxes than I made, LOL. They drove their beemers/benzes. The cars turned some heads, I noticed it a lot when I was the passenger. There are some people who get big material boners from nice cars, and hey, that's all good.  

That kind of money has never been a major attractor for me. I didn't stay with any of those guys, although several of them were actually really good guys. They just weren't my guy. My guy is a blue-collar electrician who drives an older Dodge truck. 

We definitely prefer a more simple type of lifestyle. That is us. 

The preference you are picking up on goes both ways. There are many men who also prefer nice cars, good clothes, a high quality watch. They like their women to have diamond earrings and Coach bags, and to drive Lexus SUVs, etc. There are men who care very deeply about their ability to provide for their families, who are very proud of their work and who are happy to have their wives stay at home, wearing nice things, living the good life. And IMO there is nothing wrong with that. It is not me, but it is how many people feel. 




Dogbert said:


> The same can be said about some feminists. If I make an assertion that a certain feminist is anti-male because of something she said, but I don't bring something in the form of quotes and the books or websites where they appear, then I'm just indulging in hearsay. Something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> Or
> 
> 
> 
> Not satisfied? How about this one?
> 
> 
> 
> And my favorite.
> 
> 
> 
> This stuff doesn't help bring us men the warm and fuzzy feelings for feminists, does it?
> 
> It would be helpful if when accusing Athol of being a misogynist, to please bring quotes and/or pages of his book and/or website. Then it would make it easier for us to call him out on it. Throw us a bone ladies, please.


Dogbert, I am a feminist, straight up, in a Sheryl-Sandburg kind of way (BTW my heart is broken for her right now.) I don't believe any of the items in quotes. I would be interested to learn how recent they are. These are things I would expect to hear from hard-core fighters back in the '70s and '80s, when women had to really duke it out for rights in the workplace, in education. I still wouldn't agree with them, but I remember being in college in the early 1990s and coming across some women who held extreme beliefs like this. They were not held by the majority of women, even in my Women Studies classes, back then, and I suspect they are held by even less women now.


----------



## samyeagar

Brigit said:


> True enough but the men who dated me weren't thinking "I wonder what kind of engagement ring she'd like and does she prefer a house to a condo?"
> 
> Bluntly, *they wanted to f*ck me and I wanted a nice night out*. If there was mutual chemistry then there would be a second date. It's the dating ritual we all perform to find "the one."


Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. We'll never know. The point is, if you thought that was their expectation, and had no intention of filling that expectation, letting them fill yours is simply using them.

Before anyone goes down the whole dinner justifies an expectation of sex, that's a big hell no, it shouldn't, and I am in no way suggesting it does or should. My point is though, if one has no intention of meeting the expectations of another, then it is not right or fair to expect, or allow them to meet yours...that is the very definition of using someone.


----------



## Brigit

samyeagar said:


> Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. We'll never know. The point is, if you thought that was their expectation, and had no intention of filling that expectation, letting them fill yours is simply using them.
> 
> Before anyone goes down the whole dinner justifies an expectation of sex, that's a big hell no, it shouldn't, and I am in no way suggesting it does or should. My point is though, if one has no intention of meeting the expectations of another, then it is not right or fair to expect, or allow them to meet yours...that is the very definition of using someone.


I agree. Like I said before I did some things that weren't very nice. I did use men. At the time I didn't put much thought into it. Most of the time I only dated men I was attracted to but sometimes I just wanted a fun night out. I was with my first boyfriend from the time I was 17 till I was 22. I broke off with him at 22 and met my future husband @ 26 and stopped dating all other men. So for four years I had lots and lots of dates. When a man who was clearly less attractive than me asked me out do you REALLY think that he didn't consider the fact that maybe I just wanted to go to a nice restaurant? I'm sure the guy had a clue but hoped for the best. If something seems too good to be true it usually is.

BTW - how many 20 something men take women out just to have sex, do so, and never call again? Tons.


----------



## EllisRedding

Brigit said:


> BTW - how many 20 something men take women out just to have sex, do so, and never call again? Tons.


In the case of this happening on a first date, maybe they shouldn't just hand it out like candy ... Pretty sure women have the final say over this ...

On my drive to work on the Radio they have a relationship segment and these women call up, had a great date, guy never called back, they want to know why. They then also mention they slept with the guy on the first date ... Curious, how many relationships truly flourish when starting this way (ah, maybe this would be better for a new thread instead of clogging up this on).


----------



## samyeagar

Brigit said:


> I agree. Like I said before I did some things that weren't very nice. I did use men. At the time I didn't put much thought into it. Most of the time I only dated men I was attracted to but sometimes I just wanted a fun night out. I was with my first boyfriend from the time I was 17 till I was 22. I broke off with him at 22 and met my future husband @ 26 and stopped dating all other men. So for four years I had lots and lots of dates. When a man who was clearly less attractive than me asked me out do you REALLY think that he didn't consider the fact that maybe I just wanted to go to a nice restaurant? I'm sure the guy had a clue but hoped for the best. If something seems too good to be true it usually is.
> 
> *BTW - how many 20 something men take women out just to have sex, do so, and never call again? Tons.*


Sure they do, and it's not any more right than the reverse. Playing the game, using the opposite sex in nothing new, and neither gender has the market cornered. It's all about picking the low hanging fruit.


----------



## samyeagar

EllisRedding said:


> In the case of this happening on a first date, maybe they shouldn't just hand it out like candy ... Pretty sure women have the final say over this ...
> 
> On my drive to work on the Radio they have a relationship segment and these women call up, had a great date, guy never called back, they want to know why. They then also mention they slept with the guy on the first date ... Curious, how many relationships truly flourish when starting this way (ah, maybe this would be better for a new thread instead of clogging up this on).


I'm probably not a good example for this, but the first woman I slept with, we slept together a couple hours into our first date, and we were together for two years, then she died, effectively ending the relationship. The second woman I slept with, we were together for 20 years, married for 17. The third, I insisted we wait, so we slept together early into our second date, have been together three years now, married for almost one.


----------



## Brigit

samyeagar said:


> Sure they do, and it's not any more right than the reverse. Playing the game, using the opposite sex in nothing new, and neither gender has the market cornered. It's all about picking the low hanging fruit.


There will always be predators and prey. I've been both as have most people who are honest with themselves.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Dollystanford said:


> So you think it's easier for a guy to develop a witty personality than to drop some weight and muscle up?


Nah, those are both fairly difficult or take awhile. It's pretty simple/quick to put oneself out there more, become more social and outgoing, or more interesting by taking on more activities and trying new things. ie be your own, more interesting/dynamic person. Some things you can do are damn near instantaneous - Stand up straight. Stop folding your arms. Understand body language and positioning. Dress & groom better.

Then there's a simple mindset switch. A lot of guys take a somewhat desperate perspective. They stop vetting her almost right off the bat. For lack of a better word, they "sell out". While it's hard to pin down the mannerisms exactly, there is a perceived attraction cost to that energy. It signals low value. The proper mindset to have is one that continues to ask "why should I like her?" "What does she offer?" rather than "What can I offer her?" There's a measure of distance and sort of a picky or discerning energy to it. In various material, it's referred to as frame or holding value.

For some people, particularly women, who tend to be more discerning or withheld, this is common sense and second nature. For a large number of men it's not. Instead they send off desperate energy and think, "what can I do to make her happy?" They follow the contextless script women provide of what they want, and it rarely works. Then they get bitter that the guy who wasn't "nice" to her goes home with her. All of these things are screwed up in his mind, and in the long run, he probably ends up angry with women.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Holland said:


> I have said various times here that money and success are very important to me. Not shy about saying that at all.


To your credit. There's really nothing wrong about wanting a guy with ambition or who makes things work. It's an admirable trait imo.

Many women shy away from claiming it because they don't want to be thought shallow or gold diggers. But if you take any given guy, and make him more successful or wealthier... his attractiveness increases a bit to virtually everyone. Even other men want to be around him more.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Brigit said:


> FW quoted very nasty, hateful and cruel passages from his blog/book. He teaches men how to keep women down so they'll be insecure, fearful and not want to leave the relationship. It's sort of like brainwashing. That's what made her angry and that's what offends the women on this thread.
> 
> You may not see it that way but we do.


It is brainwashing, but not quite the way you think.

Ultimately, the book and writing like that is for the intended audience. Women worshippers. Selfless, often spineless, men who incessantly put her needs above his.

Yep, the language is intended to knock women down a notch - IN HIS MIND. And he needs a little of that... because he thinks women walk on water, he caters to every need his wife might have, and then is baffled why she's bored of him in spite of doing everything she wants.

It's not a book for everyone, not even all men. It is however pretty effective at getting a certain segment of men to realize that women eat, sleep, p*ss and sh*t too.

You may not agree with its effectiveness (not sure what evidence you'd claim), but this is in fact it's intention - to take down the mental image of woman as untouchable goddess he must please, sacrifice for, and avoid upsetting. To reclaim the bit of edge he had when he was a single man.


----------



## Brigit

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> it's intention - to take down the mental image of woman as untouchable goddess he must please, sacrifice for, and avoid upsetting.


Well...that's just silly. Women are untouchable goddesses that must be pleased. No sense in denying what is.


----------



## samyeagar

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> To your credit. There's really nothing wrong about wanting a guy with ambition or who makes things work. It's an admirable trait imo.
> 
> Many women shy away from claiming it because they don't want to be thought shallow or gold diggers. *But if you take any given guy, and make him more successful or wealthier... his attractiveness increases* a bit to virtually everyone. Even other men want to be around him more.


Mythbusters did this one...


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

It's been studied repeatedly. It's as close to a lock as anything in attraction. Dude as a doctor = sexy. Same dude as a plumber = not.


----------



## Jellybeans

Something I find UNattractive - dirty fingernails.

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.


----------



## Ikaika

I have freakishly long fingers (helps to play the bass) and trimmed fingernails that are required to play the bass.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Because I'm all about that bass, bout that bass, no treble....


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> Because I'm all about that bass, bout that bass, no treble....


LOL! Love that song! &#55357;&#56842;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ikaika

ConanHub said:


> LOL! Love that song! &#55357;&#56842;
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I prefer this song, played by a bad ass chic... She can groove. 

http://youtu.be/u_l8t8yZfAk


----------



## ConanHub

Ikaika said:


> I prefer this song, played by a bad ass chic... She can groove.
> 
> http://youtu.be/u_l8t8yZfAk


Pretty hot and good on the bass too!&#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## southbound

Brigit said:


> Of course money and success are important. Make no mistake marriage is a business arrangement. It always has been and it always will be. Romantic love is relatively new in the overall picture of human culture.


I guess it's just more difficult for me to personally understand the money and success thing since i don't really care one way or the other what a woman does for a living. Some may think that's false and that I'm just saying it, but really, I couldn't care less if she has a doctorate or if she works fast food.

For me, it was always about a click. Did I click with the woman or not. I assume that some may agree, but would say they wouldn't click with someone who doesn't meet their success standards, but I don't care about that stuff.

My brother is the same way. He says when he goes out with a woman, he couldn't care less what she does for a living or what kind of status she has; he's just looking for a connection of personalities. 

Maybe I'm not revealing anything new. that may be how men are wired.


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## Betrayedone

CuddleBug said:


> I'm 6 ft 2 and 220 lbs
> 
> Not as bulky anymore and leaned up with Intermittent Fasting diet
> 
> Weight trained most of my life so I'm big, not steroid huge and strong with bigger shoulders.
> 
> No missing teeth, yet.....heh
> 
> No tattoos or piercings anywhere
> 
> No stinky feet
> 
> Bad breath if I miss one day of brushing, say on a weekend...
> 
> I cut my eye brows that grow long
> 
> I have a nice but and legs from weights
> 
> Always cut my hand and toe nails
> 
> I have large hands and they dwarf Mrs.CuddleBug's hands like gloves
> 
> My feet are size 12 I believe and I wear size 12 or 13 boots.
> 
> 
> I guess I'm okay then.:smthumbup:


fishing?


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## Brigit

southbound said:


> I guess it's just more difficult for me to personally understand the money and success thing since i don't really care one way or the other what a woman does for a living. Some may think that's false and that I'm just saying it, but really, I couldn't care less if she has a doctorate or if she works fast food.
> 
> For me, it was always about a click. Did I click with the woman or not. I assume that some may agree, but would say they wouldn't click with someone who doesn't meet their success standards, but I don't care about that stuff.
> 
> My brother is the same way. He says when he goes out with a woman, he couldn't care less what she does for a living or what kind of status she has; he's just looking for a connection of personalities.
> 
> Maybe I'm not revealing anything new. that may be how men are wired.


Most men don't care about how much money a woman makes. I was referring to the female mindset.


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## RoseAglow

southbound said:


> I guess it's just more difficult for me to personally understand the money and success thing since i don't really care one way or the other what a woman does for a living. Some may think that's false and that I'm just saying it, but really, I couldn't care less if she has a doctorate or if she works fast food.
> 
> For me, it was always about a click. Did I click with the woman or not. I assume that some may agree, but would say they wouldn't click with someone who doesn't meet their success standards, but I don't care about that stuff.
> 
> My brother is the same way. He says when he goes out with a woman, he couldn't care less what she does for a living or what kind of status she has; he's just looking for a connection of personalities.
> 
> Maybe I'm not revealing anything new. that may be how men are wired.


Southbound, most women have some degree of emotional need for financial support. 

I asked Dr. Harley (author of His Needs, Her Needs, which identifies emotional needs for men and women) about it once on his radio program. 

I could never be comfortable being financially dependent on anyone, so I thought that I didn't have any need for financial support. However, I wouldn't be happy with a man who didn't have an income of some sort. He didn't need to make as much money as I do, but he has to be a contributor. I was in a discussion about this online and I was curious to get Dr. H's thoughts on this issue, since many more women are becoming breadwinners.

Dr. Harley said that emotional needs can be expressed in many ways and on different levels. For instance, looking at the need for affection/physical touch:

Wife A might love getting her need met by getting a foot rub and by snuggling, and she might need to be touched like this on a daily basis. 
Wife B might have a lower level of need for affection/physical touch. She might not be able to tolerate someone touching her feet and instead be happiest when her husband held her hand out in public once or twice a week

The same goes for financial support. Some women might have a very high need and will want to be completely financially supported. Others, like myself, have a lower need of financial support. This is why you see some women care less than others. No one is "right" or "wrong", it is just personal preference.

Men generally don't have a need of Financial Support. That's why many men don't really care how much a woman makes. 

One of the things I am curious about is whether or not more men are getting need the for financial support. I see more men who push for their wives who were SAHMs to get jobs. It might be more due to practical needs vs. emotional needs though.


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## FizzBomb

southbound said:


> I guess it's just more difficult for me to personally understand the money and success thing since i don't really care one way or the other what a woman does for a living. Some may think that's false and that I'm just saying it, but really, I couldn't care less if she has a doctorate or if she works fast food.
> 
> For me, it was always about a click. Did I click with the woman or not. I assume that some may agree, but would say they wouldn't click with someone who doesn't meet their success standards, but I don't care about that stuff.
> 
> My brother is the same way. He says when he goes out with a woman, he couldn't care less what she does for a living or what kind of status she has; he's just looking for a connection of personalities.
> 
> Maybe I'm not revealing anything new. that may be how men are wired.


Like you, I couldn't care less about the wallet or job either but more about the character and if we 'click'. I don't know if it's just how 'men' are wired. I think it comes down to what individuals like/do not like when it comes to choosing someone.


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## Kilgoretrout

staarz21 said:


> I forgot about nose hair!! H keeps his in check most of the time though. Maybe that's why I gave it no thought!


I am actually get diligent about my nose hair
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Luvher4life

Holy crap! I'm not about to read every post on every page of this here thread. I will say this, however, from what I've gathered, women have "ideals" as to what they find attractive just like men do. The thing is, men are not nearly as picky, in my opinion.

Reality is a whole other story, though. Based on some of the posts I have read about turnoffs for most of these ladies on here, I would have NEVER gotten flirted with, dated, let alone laid, and then married!:grin2:

Sorry, I just don't fit many of the standards I've read here. I will say this, though. I think if a man, barring his being totally unattractive or smelly, has CONFIDENCE in himself and who he is, he will not have a lot of trouble finding a woman to be with. It's been my experience that women are more attracted to a confident man who has attractive qualities, more so than one who is unsure of himself, even if he is very attractive. The saying, "Nice guys finish last", comes to mind. Saying that, I don't think it has as much to do with physical appearance as it does with attractive qualities.

I won't go so far as to describe myself here, but I can tell you that I never really had a lot of trouble attracting women, even though I don't fit most women's ideal. Holding on to them, however, was a whole other story until I met my wife. I think most of the "holding on to them" was my fault because I didn't pick the right woman. Looking back, I am actually grateful that it didn't work out, to be honest. Hindsight is always 20/20. Physical attraction was predominant in early adulthood, more so than the whole package for me.


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## *Deidre*

Turn offs in general:

* wearing bracelets and necklaces (don't like jewelry on men in general, except wedding rings and understated watches)
* ear gauges
* small hands and feet
* lacks muscles 
* inarticulate (bad grammar, doesn't pronounce words well)

Am I shallow? 0


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## Kilgoretrout

*Deidre* said:


> Turn offs in general:
> 
> * wearing bracelets and necklaces (don't like jewelry on men in general, except wedding rings and understated watches)
> * ear gauges
> * small hands and feet
> * lacks muscles
> * inarticulate (bad grammar, doesn't pronounce words well)
> 
> Am I shallow? 0


Why small hands and feet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jorgegene

Yes, and what are ear gauges?


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