# Response to finding a woman finding love at 50....Long



## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

[screwed up the thread title, doh!]

Can a good-looking woman at 50 find love?

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, with many caveats.

We humans operate on two levels:

1. Social expectations. Think about the expectations of romance, courtship, marriage, etc. These are social rules and we try to abide by them. But read below for the other level at which we operate.

2. Biological imperative. We're living things, after all. We need to survive and we need to reproduce. Back in the day, life was all about running around plains and forests trying to find swiftly running animals to eat. Now, life is all about running around offices and businesses trying to find financial reports to give to the boss. But in our genes, we still have motivations and behaviors left over from our earlier history. Those behaviors and motivations simply cannot be ignored.

Men chase women who exhibit signs of fertility and good genes. Typically, that's youth and beauty. Don't like it? Ignore our essential biology at your own peril, frustration, loneliness, and celibacy.

Women chase men who show signs of security and good genes. Typically, that's height, intelligence, strength, social/economic standing, and good looks. Don't like it? Ignore our essential biology at your own peril, frustration, loneliness, and celibacy. 

For original poster in another thread, dear Amanda, the situation is challenging but not impossible.

First of all, completely ignore what your friends say about your attractiveness. They could merely be doing the diplomatic thing. (social expectation - they are supposed to say you are attractive). You need to go out in the world in a stylish outfit, makeup, nice shoes (not flats!), and your hair done right (keep it down, not up!). Are you getting attention from men? Are men looking at you and smiling? Are they looking at you at all? This is the true test of attractiveness, seriously. Do you have issues with your figure? Men generally prefer feminine proportions. Get thee some real exercise and yes, deal with your eating habits if necessary. Not only are the extra pounds unhealthy, they are ruining your proportions!

Also, the men to whom you are attracted are likely attractive to most other women. Again, this is a biology thing. The female nay-sayers will be quick to point out "but me and my friends aren't like that!" Ignore that, seriously. That is social expectation talking. You will be competing with many other women for the attentions of the guys to whom you are attracted. You may be competing with much younger women, too. This is the reality of the situation. A strong, confident, successful man can easily find women 10 years younger and below. It's not them being shallow, it's called biology and no amount of social shaming will fix it. Ever.

As there is a competition thing going on, you have to differentiate yourself - through personality, demeanor, and actions - from the rest of the women competing for that guy. Here is a dirty, little secret. The strong, confident, successful alpha men don't want a sassy, feisty, challenging woman. Those kind of men get that every day at work and in business. The male nay-sayers will be quick to point "but me and my friends aren't like that!" Ignore that, seriously. That is social expectation talking.

Biology presents us with a wonderful thing: femininity attracts masculinity. Do you remember all those uniquely feminine qualities you were blessed with? I don't mean the "strong and independent" stuff that two generations of masculine women have propagandized so well. I mean traditional feminine graciousness, pleasantness, joy that women were once expected to have. This is your trump card. While all the other women are being "strong and independent" you are the very model of a real woman who is charming, flirtatious, pleasant happy, and above all, extraordinarily feminine. The alpha men will be all over you, so to speak.

As for how to meet those men? Try online dating as a start. It's great practice and you will meet some good men. Yes, you will meet frogs along with the princes but consider that a learning experience. As for your profile, you must (not optional!) have a section that lists the things that make you a good catch. Here's a secret online dating profile weapon: Write an actual list that starts with the word "you". For example: "Your friends will be jealous of you when they see us together." Or, "You will rarely see me frown because I'm an optimistic and happy person" By putting the word "You" as the first in the sentence, you are telling the potential suitor/romantic partner that his needs are important. You also have the opportunity to describe your positive qualities. So few women understand that the needs/wants of the man are just as important as the needs/wants of a woman vis a vis dating and relationships. This is another trump card for you.

I'm almost 50 myself and I've been doing the online dating thing for about a year. The vast majority of women over 45 simply don't understand men at all. Worse, they have little regard or respect for what a man wants and needs. If you truly want to find love, regardless of age, have far more respect for men or run the risk of acquiring pets as a poor substitute for the real love and intimacy in a relationship with a man.

Now go out and be a real woman!

You're welcome


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

There is absolutely no reason a woman cannot be strong and independent AND gracious, charming, pleasant, and joyful. Also, if it's about biology (young, proportionate, etc.), then the "social" expectation that a woman "needs" to act submissive, needy, weak, etc., does not really matter, does it?

Now, if what you are trying to say is that men do not want a ball-buster as a partner, duh. No surprises there. If you are saying the way we treat our romantic and personal partners needs to be different from how we treat people at work, duh; no surprises there either. 

If you are saying that the situation is HOPELESS for a woman who is happy in her own skin, has self-confidence, can be happy alone and is not so DESPERATE for male company that she'll do anything to get it, then no one here will believe you. 

I'm sorry but you sound like you have pretty low-self esteem. When you say that the vast majority of women have no regard for the "needs" of men, you are saying that they don't play the game the way YOU think it should be played. 

Confident women respect men. They recognize that men have needs just as women do. They recognize that the needs of both parties are equally relevant in any relationship. Yes, there are some women still "stuck" in "man-hating" after they've been burned, and these women may be overly selfish out of fear of losing themselves again to a man who does not deserve them--and of course that is not attractive. But a good, confident man knows how to look past that and knows that he SHOULD because he does not want a woman who is still in need of developing her self-confidence to the point she does not "fear" the power of a man to "make" her lose herself. Nor, I suspect, does a confidant man want a woman who is so desperate for male company that she'll be manipulative (what you've described as having the trump cards.)

If, of course, a woman's goal is to have as many dates as possible with a bunch of losers, then the strategy you recommend will work fine. A man who can fall for such manipulation, and a woman willing to do it, deserve each other. If, on the other hand, her goal is to meet quality men who UNDERSTAND that women can be both happy, confident, joyful, gracious, etc., then she needs to be true to herself and trust that a good man will come along-because he will.


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

Men understand that "strong and independent" is code for bossy and domineering.

At no point did I mention weak or submissive. I merely mentioned being feminine. You're the one associating weakness and submissiveness with femininity.

The current social expectation is about women being strong and independent. Read the online dating profiles of women. You'll see that the majority mention something about independence or strength.

Nice attempt with the shaming language regarding my self esteem. Such shaming language merely indicates I'm right. It's the equivalent of a kid saying "you're a doo-doo head" when he doesn't have a good response.

Understanding men is key to having good relationships with men. What you might call "manipulative" is simply knowing men and doing the things necessary to attract a man. Is there something wrong with attracting a man?

"Confident women respect men." Sure, whatever you say.

"...she needs to be true to herself and *trust that a good man will come along-because he will*." A rather passive approach, no? Meanwhile, the other women are doing those "manipulative" things and that good man goes for them. Very, very bad advice you are giving.

Hopefully, Amanda the original poster reads my post and takes heed.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Zammo,
What is femininity to you? I never really understood a man's meaning of it. Is it long hair and heels or are we talking something else?
I am genuinely curious to hear what a man views as feminine.


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## Mrs.LonelyGal (Nov 8, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Zammo,
> What is femininity to you? I never really understood a man's meaning of it. Is it long hair and heels or are we talking something else?
> I am genuinely curious to hear what a man views as feminine.


Me too, for that matter!
I have never felt feminine.... other than my emotions.


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

Ah, what is femininity? I'll address that later today because time constraints prevent me from writing the long response required.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Zammo said:


> Ah, what is femininity? I'll address that later today because time constraints prevent me from writing the long response required.


I look forward to hearing your thoughts. I think each man might be different but surely there is a general theme.
:scratchhead:


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I’m right with you Zammo. Bit older though. Just need to get my eyes less than a light-year away from my age as far as a new woman in my life is concerned. I have not seen one thing to disagree with in your posts. I even posted recently that while I may like the self described “strong and confident” women as friends, they are not the type of person I wish to spend my life with.

But I am truly blessed. I live in a world surrounded by the type of women you described. Some “modern and foreign” women here deride them, the way the “don’t” do their hair, their lack of “style” in their choice of clothes. These women here, the vast majority of them look like they spend nothing on their hair. Out of bed, shower and brush their hair. It is one of the most delightfully natural looks I’ve ever seen anywhere. Clothing is extremely relaxed and casual, the overall “natural effect” along with the associated curves in all the right places is a true site to behold.

And guess what? All the men both young and old just love that natural look. The fact that they’re a natural light brown colour, they always look tanned, adds to the overall effect. My wife was the same, very natural and very feminine, without the natural tan.

No I’m not a lecher and I don’t walk around with my tongue hanging out. But I’m a year separated and I am thinking on my next partner for this stage in my life. I’ve seen a few around the right sort of age for me. But I ain’t ready as yet. The way I’m going to find my next partner is to get on and create my new life doing the things I want to do. I know that’s how I’m going to meet her because she’ll be doing similar things and that’s what I need this time round.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I’m right with you Zammo. Bit older though. Just need to get my eyes less than a light-year away from my age as far as a new woman in my life is concerned. I have not seen one thing to disagree with in your posts. I even posted recently that while I may like the self described “strong and confident” women as friends, they are not the type of person I wish to spend my life with.
> 
> But I am truly blessed. I live in a world surrounded by the type of women you described. Some “modern and foreign” women here deride them, the way the “don’t” do their hair, their lack of “style” in their choice of clothes. These women here, the vast majority of them look like they spend nothing on their hair. Out of bed, shower and brush their hair. It is one of the most delightfully natural looks I’ve ever seen anywhere. Clothing is extremely relaxed and casual, the overall “natural effect” along with the associated curves in all the right places is a true site to behold.
> 
> ...


I will ask of you the same question, what is femininity to a man? You mentioned the natural look. For you, that is what you like and appreciate and no doubt easy to find in gorgeous Portugal! Not sure what most guys find to feminine though. When I hear "feminine" I think of a woman in a dress with lace but surely that is not the definition of feminine, so I am confused.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Brennan said:


> I will ask of you the same question, what is femininity to a man? You mentioned the natural look. For you, that is what you like and appreciate and no doubt easy to find in gorgeous Portugal! Not sure what most guys find to feminine though. When I hear "feminine" I think of a woman in a dress with lace but surely that is not the definition of feminine, so I am confused.



Brennan, it sounds like you’re looking for “one rule that fits all”. Men will more than likely have their own definition of what feminine means to them and surely there will be men who have the same definition of femininity.

Take Margaret Thatcher, the ultimate, archetypal “strong and confident woman?”. Does her husband see her as feminine? Surely only he can answer that question? Some men thought of her as a man in a skirt. I have no sexual attraction to her whatsoever while at the same time I appreciate her strong and confident nature. She did a lot of good with that and a lot of bad.

I don’t find women who like to weald a whip feminine at all, I think the opposite in fact. But some men do like it. I don’t find over weight women in the sexual attraction sense feminine at all. But I know they are feminine and I know some men have a sexual attraction to them.

Next time you are in a shopping mall watch the men, young old and everywhere in-between, not to check them out but to see where they look and who they’re looking at. Maybe that will answer your question.

I have at least given you my description of what a feminine woman looks like to me. It’s not just the look though, it’s their deportment and demeanour, their very body language as well. They ooze sex appeal. Plus they are exceedingly “open”, it is the Portuguese way of life. None of this Brit thing of distant shaking of hands on meeting, it’s smiles, hand on shoulder and touching cheeks within 5 minutes. It is an absolute delight. And my goodness can they cook and it’s all natural fresh ingredients. Goodness I’m describing my stbx! But I’m ok with that.

When I came out here I had big problems with my “personal space”. With total strangers this was about a yard. Here they come right in to about a foot away. When first here I did the “merry dance of personal space” they’d get close, I’d move away. It was very comical but now it just doesn’t bother me at all.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I think all that was said can apply to a man as well. I just think that men are more willing to not care if a woman is with them only for their status. I think older men can get younger women but only a certain type of younger woman that is looking for status and fortune because, let's face it, no one at 50 is what they were like at 25. Their youthful delight has faded into aged wisdom, if they're lucky. It might just be in America but most men in their 50's here are balding and overweight, have grey hair and wrinkly skin. It's certainly not my ideal. 

Basically masculinity and femininity are in the eye of the beholder much like beauty. If all you're looking for is on the outside then the advice in this thread definitely applies to you.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Brennan, it sounds like you’re looking for “one rule that fits all”. Men will more than likely have their own definition of what feminine means to them and surely there will be men who have the same definition of femininity.
> 
> Take Margaret Thatcher, the ultimate, archetypal “strong and confident woman?”. Does her husband see her as feminine? Surely only he can answer that question? Some men thought of her as a man in a skirt. I have no sexual attraction to her whatsoever while at the same time I appreciate her strong and confident nature. She did a lot of good with that and a lot of bad.
> 
> ...


Great insight, Bob! Yes, I think I am trying to find a general "one size fits all" which is probably counter productive. When I hear a man say he likes feminine though, it leaves me scratching my head. Everybody has a different take on it but I was hoping to get some semblance of general characteristics. 
I hear you on the cultural/boundary differences. I was born in the States but my parents immigrated from Sweden. When we would go back there it was hugging and kissing not handshakes, even with distant relatives I had never met. It felt so weird at the time but also so warm and open.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Great insight, Bob! Yes, I think I am trying to find a general "one size fits all" which is probably counter productive. When I hear a man say he likes feminine though, it leaves me scratching my head. Everybody has a different take on it but I was hoping to get some semblance of general characteristics.
> I hear you on the cultural/boundary differences. I was born in the States but my parents immigrated from Sweden. When we would go back there it was hugging and kissing not handshakes, even with distant relatives I had never met. It felt so weird at the time but also so warm and open.


I’ve got so used to friendly, civilised and warm good manners. Even very old men I don’t know stop, put a hand on my arm and start talking to me. I was once stopped by a guy and asked if he would mind giving his mother a hug. She’s elderly and blind and apparently loves a hug. Young women in supermarkets all smile and say good morning. Walk into a café and don’t say hello even to complete strangers is considered reserved and uncivilised. If you smile and wave to somebody here, even complete strangers, it comes straight back with no hesitation, no “what’s he after”.

I’m from the south of England. When I go back there I get a real shock. If I behave there as I do here then people look at me as though I’m fresh out of a lunatic asylum. Young mothers with babes in a pram give me a wide birth and seem to have a fear in their face if I smile and say good morning. So I behave differently when there. I ignore them, as though I haven’t seen them. It’s difficult to explain. My son’s partner takes a mile diversion on the way home from the station to give the park across the road a wide berth. The men are very different as well. There’s so much aggression there that it’s no eye contact whatsoever with strangers. How things have changed. This place, Portugal is now my home.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Zammo, you were the one who implied that "strength and independence" weren't feminine; the logical implication, then, is that feminine = weak (not strong) and submissive (dependent, not independent) We hear a lot of on this site. 

I wasn't trying to shame you by saying you may have low-self-esteem; I was actively saying it as a possibility you should investigate. It's something that happens a lot here-many of us can spot low self-esteem a mile away. Am I always right? Nope. But your hostitilty and defensiveness pretty much says more than anything else I can say. 

And you still don't get it--a confident woman isn't trying to "catch" or "attract" a man--she's living her life, joyously. And when a good man happens by, she will know and make room in her life. What you are suggesting is very explicitly a strategy for "attracting a man"--any man, really, and yes, there is something "wrong" with that. What you suggest sounds a lot like "The Rules," and I was very much saying that a confident woman doesn't play those games or ANY games to "attract" a man. She is herself. If that isn't good enough, she is ok with that. But guess what? It IS good enough. Yeah, the angry self-absorbed ball-busters may be alone, but the rest of us who are truly strong, self-confident, and independent, don't have any trouble meeting the kind of men we like.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Sisters, I think I kind of get where you are with what you say. But game playing is surely something we all do in one way or another.

There’s obviously the preconceived, very conscience game playing which to me is not the way ahead. Far to manipulative for me. I don’t follow a script.

But in my own way I will “play a game” should I see a woman I’m attracted to. And to be honest I can’t imagine a guy with a more clumsier, unconscious game than me. I don’t do one liners and I don’t do pick up lines. I kind of stumble into things when I feel, for me the chemistry is right.

For me it’s far more important to be able to recognise the subtle attraction signals women send out. I like knocking on doors that are likely to open. It’s interesting when out with either of my sons. They’re good looking guys and I see far more of the way women look at them than they do, they quite simply miss it.

But Sisters what do you do when you see a man you are attracted to? Do you in essence play hard to get or do you make yourself easy to get? Do you tell him straight out you fancy him or some such expression? Do you take time to get to know him? Do you dress differently, say provocatively or demure? Do you go Dutch on a date or expect the man to pay? Have you a special perfume for such occasions? Do you check out his criminal record and financial situation? Do you see how he mixes and socialises with his family and friends? Do you examine what type of parent he is if he has children? If he is divorced do you ask him about his marriage and why they divorced? Etc. etc. Whatever you do, that will be your “game”, be it preconceived and conscious or in essence unconscious. And if you’re actively looking for a man how do you go about that? Whatever you do, that will be your particular “game”

I’m of the opinion that in these things women are far more into game playing and manipulation than men ever will be. And that any women will see right the way through any preconceived game that any man plays. Unless of course the woman is totally dumb or just wants sex for the night. The last sentence is not what OP is on about.


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> Zammo, you were the one who implied that "strength and independence" weren't feminine; the logical implication, then, is that feminine = weak (not strong) and submissive (dependent, not independent) We hear a lot of on this site.


You are specifically using politicized words - "weak" and "submissive" to bring about an emotional response. It's a clever tactic but easily spotted and brushed aside by those who can recognize emotional, not logical arguments.



> I wasn't trying to shame you by saying you may have low-self-esteem; I was actively saying it as a possibility you should investigate. It's something that happens a lot here-many of us can spot low self-esteem a mile away. Am I always right? Nope. But your hostitilty and defensiveness pretty much says more than anything else I can say.


Ah, so you have downgraded shame to concern, barely. Google the term "concern troll". You're still using shaming language, regardless. Argue the message, not the messenger. You're in the men's clubhouse now. Logic comes first, reason comes next, and emotions are a distant third.



> And you still don't get it--a confident woman isn't trying to "catch" or "attract" a man--she's living her life, joyously. And when a good man happens by, she will know and make room in her life. What you are suggesting is very explicitly a strategy for "attracting a man"--any man, really, and yes, there is something "wrong" with that. What you suggest sounds a lot like "The Rules," and I was very much saying that a confident woman doesn't play those games or ANY games to "attract" a man. She is herself. If that isn't good enough, she is ok with that. But guess what? It IS good enough.


And you're still recommending a passive approach that women should take regarding attracting and meeting men. Based on the biological imperative, I am absolutely recommending that a woman do what it takes to attract a man if that is what she wants. As well, I would like to know very specifically why you consider a woman actively seeking love and an intimate relationship as something that is "wrong".

Ironically, you are arguing a traditionalist approach to finding love and an intimate relationship: a woman waits passively (but busily) by hoping for Mr. Right to "happen by". What if by "being herself", she is finding herself _not _in a wonderful and intimate relationship with man?

As an aside, would you counsel a weak, not confident man to "be himself" when he would like to find love and intimacy with a special woman? Or should he remain lonely and unhappy?



> Yeah, the angry self-absorbed ball-busters may be alone, but the rest of us who are truly strong, self-confident, and independent, don't have any trouble meeting the kind of men we like.


And what kind of men are you attracted to on a biological level?

A word about those strong, confident, successful men. They are used to taking the lead and making decisions in the office and at home.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I think it patently clear that Sisters is very happy without a man in her life. What more could a man possibly add to Sister’s life?

The problem I’ve seen with that is that some women who live alone without a man quite simply become used to that way of life. They get used to being in their home, by themselves and can’t even begin to imagine a man encroaching on their “territory” and in some way or another “messing it up”. This only takes two or three years and then it becomes their way of life, undisturbed by “man”. They’ll never go out and actively attract a man in or do anything different to make themselves more appealing, to men. That is they wont change their “game”. In fact if they’ve reached this stage they’ll probably do things to make themselves unappealing to men.

If they do eventually get into “game playing” it’ll be very clumsy and very unnatural. I know, I’ve experienced it.

And it is usually the extremely strongly independent and strong minded woman that feels this way. And the longer it goes on that way the more they like that way of life. These women are more or less untouchable to some men quite simply because the woman does nothing whatsoever to attract them. It’s like they have a big “hands off” sign on their forehead. They spend the remainder of their life without a man in their home. Many have their “special man friend” but will never actually live with them.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

When I say I am feminine, please don't assume that I am weak as a woman who doesn't know how to deal with the public. I hold a job very well, I run my life very well. 

When I say I am submissive to my man, please don't assume that I don't know how to get women's rights. I get a lot. 

But when I talk to my husband, my tone is sweet, I let him know I need his protection. I let him know that he has to be strong to protect me. A weak woman makes a strong man, a strong woman makes a weak man, my opinion. I can't f**k like a man, I need a strong man.

Some women can keep their men by being able to have intellectual conversation, some women can keep their men by being good mothers to the children, some women can keep their men by being great in bed, some women can keep their men by being a vase...............But it all require the women to be respectful towards the men. 

Men have to do a lot now to keep their women, I am glad about this change.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Being 61 and the age of 50 being in my “mix” I find this whole topic very interesting.

The questions I ask myself are “what is “age”” and what do women of 50 or thereabouts actually need a man for?

From an age point of view I see “number of years” and quite a few other things. A woman of 50 can have the “attitude” of someone who’s already retired and given up the ghost, the maturity of a 20 year old, the body of a 25 year old and the get go of a 25 year old etc. etc. So biological age is not the real issue, at least to me it isn’t. And surely these things are the same for men. For example I’ll take anybody on of any age at squash (racquets) or tennis and if I don’t win I’ll give them a very good game. I know men of my age who can’t even walk around a golf course and have difficulty getting in a buggy. But that’s not me.

A woman of 50 is very different to a woman of 20 in that she is no longer looking for a father for her children. She may well indeed still have dependent children and any future partner will need to be supportive of her “family”, at the very least in an emotional sense.

But what else will she be looking for? I don’t think it’s a lot different to what men are looking for. In essence a person to have fun with and enjoy life with. To make plans with and to do things with, sports, special interests like archaeology etc., house renovation etc. etc. etc. And of course a person to go to bed with and a person to wake up next to.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> When I say I am feminine, please don't assume that I am weak as a woman who doesn't know how to deal with the public. I hold a job very well, I run my life very well.
> 
> When I say I am submissive to my man, please don't assume that I don't know how to get women's rights. I get a lot.
> 
> ...


GP, take it from me, you are one very feminine woman and very refreshing too.

Bob


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> When I say I am feminine, please don't assume that I am weak as a woman who doesn't know how to deal with the public. I hold a job very well, I run my life very well.


It's called "self reliant" and it's very alluring. I've said it before and I'll say it again, "strong and independent" is code for "bossy and domineering", traits that are repellent to men, regardless of social expectations.




> When I say I am submissive to my man, please don't assume that I don't know how to get women's rights. I get a lot.


The word "submissive" is quite laden with negative connotations given today's social expectations. Use that word at your own risk.



> But when I talk to my husband, my tone is sweet, I let him know I need his protection. I let him know that he has to be strong to protect me. *A weak woman makes a strong man, a strong woman makes a weak man*, my opinion. I can't f**k like a man, I need a strong man.


And so you shall reap the wrath of those who embrace contemporary social expectations and refuse to understand the biological imperative.



> Some women can keep their men by being able to have intellectual conversation, some women can keep their men by being good mothers to the children, some women can keep their men by being great in bed, some women can keep their men by being a vase...............*But it all requires the women to be respectful towards the men*.
> 
> Men have to do a lot now to keep their women, I am glad about this change.


And what are women doing to keep their men?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Zammo, you still do not understand. When a woman is unhappy and lonely "because she does not have a man in her life," the solution does not lie in "attracting a man." "Attracting a man" to address the problem is like putting a bandaid on an arterial bleed; it does nothing to fix the real problem. The real problem is that the woman does not love herself and she is defining herself by whether or not she has a man. The advice you recommended fed into those self-doubts and offered no real solution and, worse, recommended something that would only exacerbate poor self-esteem.

If you could stop the attacks on me and engage on the merits of this question, I'm sure others would appreciate it. Oh, and yes, if a man was unhappy and lonely b/c he didn't have a woman in his life, I would not suggest he just get a woman, problem solved! I would suggest that he learn to love himself enough to be happy alone and then the rest would take care of itself one way or another.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

And AFEH, why do you say is it a "problem" if a woman becomes used to being alone? Is it also a problem if a man becomes used to living/being alone?


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> The real problem is that the woman does not love herself and she is defining herself by whether or not she has a man. The advice you recommended fed into those self-doubts and offered no real solution and, worse, recommended something that would only exacerbate poor self-esteem.


You're joking, right? Do you sell cats? I offered real, positive advice and you rejected it out of hand.

Self doubt is a _great_ motivator for introspection.



> If you could stop the attacks on me and engage on the merits of this question, I'm sure others would appreciate it. Oh, and yes, if a man was unhappy and lonely b/c he didn't have a woman in his life, I would not suggest he just get a woman, problem solved! *I would suggest that he learn to love himself enough to be happy alone and then the rest would take care of itself one way or another.*


Worst. Advice. Ever. "Love yourself" is the the rationalization hamster spinning its wheel at light speed. That poor creature will die!

And nice try on the "attacks at me"... Again with the emotional "logic". You're in a part of this forum for men and you're using emotional logic. Try again.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> And AFEH, why do you say is it a "problem" if a woman becomes used to being alone? Is it also a problem if a man becomes used to living/being alone?



At my age I can and do talk from personal experience. I don’t talk statistics.

I personally know women who are alone, have been that way a long time and do not want another man in their home because they became used to living without a man. These are family, friends and acquaintances. I do know that the “special man friend” of some 15 years or more of one of my relatives wants to move in with her.

I do not know any man who does not want his woman in his home. And I don't know any man of any age who actually wants to live without a woman.

Geesh. When one women came into my home she started moving the furniture around and put some big paintings I have up on the walls (well she asked me to do it lol). But the room looked far better after her “adjustments”. That’s what I mean. I know my life will be far more fulfilling for me with a woman in it. Just not ready as yet for the hassle that goes with it lol.

I also know women who have lived on their own for a long while and very much want a man … in their home. It is that “want” thing, a need that can only be satisfied … by a man. And I don’t mean just sex.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Nothing is sacred on TAM; you'll have to get used to that if you decide to stick around.

And yes, I rejected your advice because it was lousy, in my opinion. That happens a lot here, too.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> Nothing is sacred on TAM; you'll have to get used to that if you decide to stick around.
> 
> And yes, I rejected your advice because it was lousy, in my opinion. That happens a lot here, too.



Of course things are sacred on TAM. Of course they are.

Personal attacks are not allowed and result in a ban.

Boundaries, very sacred things those, are to there to be respected.

As are the personal opinions of other members no matter how much you disagree with them, they’re sacred too as they are what make us all unique individuals and in great part define who we are.

These sacred things are after all what make TAM the place it is.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

And look how very far off course you have thrown this particular thread. In the Men's Clubhouse.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Zammo,
How is self reliant different from strong and independent? And once again, what is feminine?


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Zammo said:


> And what are women doing to keep their men?


If they are not doing anything to make their men happy, we know the result! They might be able to keep their men for a couple of years, but they are going to lose their men in the end. If a woman doesn't do anything to make her husband happy, even though they live together, they are emotionally remote. VICE VERSA.

On TAM, I have read posts from quite a few sacrificing women. I am happy to see, it means I have company. 

Men or women, should never think that their spouses will stick around forever without putting much effort into the marriage. 

In China, we say that we have to do things to KEEP OUR SPOUSES, KEEP THEIR HEARTS.


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Zammo,
> How is self reliant different from strong and independent? And once again, what is feminine?


Words have meanings and connotations. "Self reliant" does not have the negative connotations of "strong and independent".

As for the essay on femininity, I am giving it lots of thought. The biggest problem is trying to find the correct vocabulary to not offend those suffering from incurable political correctness.


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## Mrs.LonelyGal (Nov 8, 2010)

Strong and independent have any negative connotations??
Whaa?
I am sorry, I don't really see anything wrong with a human being strong and/or independent- regardless of their sex.


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

Mrs.LonelyGal said:


> Strong and independent have any negative connotations??
> Whaa?
> I am sorry, I don't really see anything wrong with a human being strong and/or independent- regardless of their sex.


While you don't see the negative connotations, men have something of a private joke regarding "strong and independent" women.


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## Mrs.LonelyGal (Nov 8, 2010)

Then the joke might be on men, because strong and independent women don't need men as much.


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

Mrs.LonelyGal said:


> Then the joke might be on men, because strong and independent women don't need men as much.


No problem there because my investment portfolio is heavy in the pet industry.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Surely femininity in the eyes of a man is quite dependent on the culture his in. And this culture not only varies from country to country but even within a countries borders.

I watched an African film with a person brought up there. It was a good film but I was surprised by the size of the majority of the women. I asked my friend why they get that way and her reply was because their men like them that way.

In England there’s the “English Rose”. Soft feminine features, classically beautiful face. Acts feminine, kind, diplomatic, demure.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

AFEH said:


> And look how very far off course you have thrown this particular thread. In the Men's Clubhouse.


Yep, never takes the girls much.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Mrs.LonelyGal said:


> Strong and independent have any negative connotations??
> Whaa?
> I am sorry, I don't really see anything wrong with a human being strong and/or independent- regardless of their sex.



It's an interpretation thing for me.

When I read “Strong and independent” the interpretation I make is “Dominant and quite possibly dictatorial”.

Plus when this quality in a woman is promoted by her over and above all her other “qualities” it tells me just how much emphasis she puts on being dominant and possibly dictatorial. And the more she promotes “I’m strong and independent” the more I feel my interpretation is correct.

There are men who want to be dominated and dictated to, either that or they take it because they have another need the woman satisfies, but I’m not one of them. For me it’s the exact opposite of what being feminine is all about.

I guess in some ways it’s analogous to some women’s interpretation of the “Dominant man” topic here.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Mrs.LonelyGal said:


> Then the joke might be on men, because strong and independent women don't need men as much.



Exactly the point. It's a pointless investment of a man's time, energy and everything else that a man invests in the relationship.

He is just wasting his time that’s one of the reasons I don’t go there. But I wonder who the joke is really on. Without a “need” in some form or other the relationship will very quickly become abusive and dysfunctional.


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## Mrs.LonelyGal (Nov 8, 2010)

I am in a managerial position in my career. My chosen field is one that is predominantly dominated by men. In order to be successful I have to be strong and independent in my management of men who are my professional [_REDACTED_]. I also DO NOT rule w/ an iron fist. I am not bossy, I am not domineering. I approach people the way I would like to be approached. I try to let my staff feel as though they are my equals even though in the end - everyone knows I have the final word.

I succeed because I am naturally strong and independent and a great leader. I was raised by both parents to be self reliant and hard working. That part of my personality is inherent not only to my professional life but to my personal life as well. 

Does that make me the antithesis of feminine?
Not trying to be combative here, just curious.
I can sense resentment from some ( not all) of my male coworkers because it is almost like they think I am inferior and do not deserve the merits my hard work has afforded me. Like I don't belong in their little success club.

I also sense resentment from some male posters on TAM when the more outspoken and opinionated female posters defend their stance on any given subject or are accused of b!tching when they do not accept the view of a male poster that they perceive as incorrect. Not because they are women and the poster is a man, but because they just simply don't agree. They are strong and independent enough to formulate their own thoughts and debate them.

Admittedly, I was raised as a tomboy. I was the son my father never had. I have always fit in better with the guys. But it seems that in some instances if I were docile and and weak in my role at work ( well, I wouldn't have the same job as I do now, that's for sure) I would be better liked by my male peers.

I mean, I have breasts and a vagina, I wear my hair long and wear heels and make up and perfume. I get my period. I have emotions and like to talk about them. I can formulate an opinion and express it confidently without being a b!tch. I am also, detail oriented, adept to functioning at a high level under extreme duress, a diplomatic manager, and a great leader.
I guess I just fail to see how being strong and independent is perceived as unfeminine.

Sometimes I am not strong, sometimes I rely on the support of my husband to make it through tough times. But I work hard and play hard. I have always managed my own finances and taken care of myself. I put myself through school w/o loan or financial assistance of any kind. I made it to my high position at my job through hard work and proving I was just as capable and intelligent as my male coworkers- in some cases more so.

_I guess my question is - should it matter if you appear feminine to some people with an old fashioned ideal of what feminine is? Or should a woman pretend to be something she is not in order to hook a mate?_
Perhaps there is a paradigm shift going on and feminine/ masculine is evolving to mean something else? Maybe gender roles in society will one day cease to exist, aside from their biological impediments.

I mean, women will always have the babies, men will more than likely always have superior upper body strength, but in society _maybe we can be equals and both sexes will be applauded for being strong and independent?_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

My goodness, searched for “cultural femininity” and this came up.

_“The trailer depicts the characters in the movie gallivanting around the world, searching for meaningless sex, pleasure and anything else that seems ‘fun’. The trailer attempts to glorify promiscuity, drunkenness, infidelity, homosexuality and the glamor and allure of money. A tag line used in the trailer says “Discover how much fun forbidden can be.” The trailer tells me that many people (women and men) will have their view of marriage ’shaken up’ a bit… which is most definitely not needed in our culture. The four women in the movie are female versions of “cultural manliness”. In the same way that “cultural manliness” ends in emptiness, loneliness, despair and sorrow, so too does “cultural femininity.”
_

Cultural Femininity | TrueManhood.com


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Mrs.LonelyGal said:


> I am in a managerial position in my career. My chosen field is one that is predominantly dominated by men. In order to be successful I have to be strong and independent in my management of men who are my professional inferiors. I also to rule w/ an iron fist. I am not bossy, I am not domineering. I approach people the way I would like to be approached. I try to let my staff feel as though they are my equals even though in the end - everyone knows I have the end word.
> 
> I succeed because I am naturally strong and independent and a great leader. I was raised by both parents to be self reliant and hard working. That part of my personality is inherent not only to my professional life but to my personal life as well.
> 
> ...



..... "my management of men who are my professional inferiors".


I stopped reading your post at that point.


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## Mrs.LonelyGal (Nov 8, 2010)

They are my professional inferiors. I am in a job with seniority and my skills have put me in a position to where I am in charge.
Perhaps inferiors was the wrong choice of word, but those who have less experience and are less capable of doing my particular job are in fact inferior professionally. Not in all aspects of life- but those that pertain to my career.


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

> Or should a woman pretend to be something she is not in order to hook a mate?


Current social expectations are telling women to be something they are not. Whatever happened to soft and demure?



> I guess I just fail to see how being strong and independent is perceived as unfeminine.


Indeed you do. You can continue to use that phrase "strong and independent" all you want. Each time you use it, the man hearing it is thinking "bossy and domineering". It's a language thing, nothing more. If any woman is trying to honestly communicate with men - especially in the realm of dating and relationships - she had better learn the language of men. After all, would you write a play in French for a Russian-speaking audience?



> ...but in society maybe we can be equals and both sexes will be applauded for being strong and independent?


No.

Men and women are different. Social expectations (or shame) will never, ever change that. Men need to be encouraged to be more masculine, women need to be encouraged to be more feminine.

And yes, still cogitatin' over the nature of femininity.


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

Mrs.LonelyGal said:


> They are my professional inferiors. I am in a job with seniority and my skills have put me in a position to where I am in charge.
> *Perhaps inferiors was the wrong choice of word*, but those who have less experience and are less capable of doing my particular job are in fact *inferior *professionally. Not in all aspects of life- but those that pertain to my career.


Oh yeah, desperately wrong choice.

Note to self, never work for Mrs.LonelyGal


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## jenaa (Dec 3, 2010)

So anyway, Amanda, try not to be a bossy, masculine ballbuster like most women these days, and you got a pretty good shot. lol


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Zammo said:


> Oh yeah, desperately wrong choice.
> 
> Note to self, never work for Mrs.LonelyGal



Wouldn't even take the job if offered. If I found she'd become my manager would probably walk out first time true colours were shown at a meeting.

But financial times are tough. Keeps a lot of men working for very difficult people.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Mrs.LonelyGal said:


> They are my professional inferiors. I am in a job with seniority and my skills have put me in a position to where I am in charge.
> Perhaps inferiors was the wrong choice of word, but those who have less experience and are less capable of doing my particular job are in fact inferior professionally. Not in all aspects of life- but those that pertain to my career.


Don't want to make you feel bad. 

In my opinion, everybody is important. We should treat others superior to us no matter who they are. In a company, everybody is important, the company can't function properly without a single one. A cleaning lady is important, she makes the environmental clean. A receptionist is important, she answers the phone! 

At home, our men are important, they complete us!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Mrs.LonelyGal said:


> They are my professional inferiors. I am in a job with seniority and my skills have put me in a position to where I am in charge.
> Perhaps inferiors was the wrong choice of word, but those who have less experience and are less capable of doing my particular job are in fact inferior professionally. Not in all aspects of life- but those that pertain to my career.



I would have also stopped reading your post if you’d written ..... "my management of women who are my professional inferiors".

I joined a company with an annual revenue of $250,000. Four years later I was managing my own team with a revenue of $15 million. Never once did I consider anyone inferior to me in any way whatsoever. People are “different” and have different strengths and weaknesses. They are in no way “inferior”.


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## Mrs.LonelyGal (Nov 8, 2010)

So all little boys should get trucks and tools as toys and all little girls should get princesses and ponies for X-mas this year?


Let's not argue semantics anymore. Let's actually look at the words we have chosen.
The definitions I have bolded are the ones that I associate with myself when I say that I am proud to be strong...
*STRONG:*
–adjective
1. having, showing, or able to exert great bodily or muscular power; physically vigorous or robust
2. accompanied or delivered by great physical, mechanical, etc., power or force
*3. mentally powerful or vigorous
4. especially able, competent, or powerful in a specific field or respect
5. of great moral power, firmness, or courage
6. powerful in influence, authority, resources, or means of prevailing or succeeding
7.aggressive; willful: a strong personality.*
8.of great force, effectiveness, potency, or cogency; compelling
9. clear and firm; loud: 
*10. solid or stable; healthy; thriving: 
11. well-supplied or rich in something specific*
12. having powerful means to resist attack, assault, or aggression
13.able to resist strain, force, wear, etc.
14. decisively unyielding; firm or uncompromising: 
15. fervent; zealous; thoroughgoing
16. strenuous or energetic; vigorous
17. moving or acting with force or vigor
18.distinct or marked; vivid, as impressions, resemblance or contrast: 
19. intense, as light or color.
20. having a large proportion of the effective or essential properties or ingredients; concentrated
21. (of a beverage or food) containing much alcohol: strong drink; The fruitcake was too strong.
22. having a high degree of flavor or odor: strong cheese; strong perfume.
23. having an unpleasant or offensive flavor or odor, esp. in the process of decay: strong butter.
24. of a designated number: Marines 20,000 strong.


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## Mrs.LonelyGal (Nov 8, 2010)

OK I admit that I made a very poor choice of words when I typed inferior. I take it back. I in no way meant to imply that anyone was below me or not important.
I simply meant that my skills and hard work have put me in a situation that I am the boss. I am the one who the responsibility falls on if things do not go right- from my professional superior or my boss. *If you continued to read past my verbal foible you would also see that my management tactics do not come from a place of domination. I treat everyone I work with and those under my supervision with respect.*


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## Mrs.LonelyGal (Nov 8, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> Don't want to make you feel bad.
> 
> In my opinion, everybody is important. We should treat others superior to us no matter who they are. In a company, everybody is important, the company can't function properly without a single one. A cleaning lady is important, she makes the environmental clean. A receptionist is important, she answers the phone!
> 
> At home, our men are important, they complete us!


Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Please forgive my poor choice of words.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Mrs.LonelyGal said:


> So all little boys should get trucks and tools as toys and all little girls should get princesses and ponies for X-mas this year?
> 
> 
> Let's not argue semantics anymore. Let's actually look at the words we have chosen.
> ...



You haven't "understood" or "comprehended" a single thing!

Your “name” Mrs.LonelyGal speaks volumes!


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## Mrs.LonelyGal (Nov 8, 2010)

*INDEPENDENT*
–adjective
1.not influenced or controlled by others in matters of opinion, conduct, etc.; *thinking or acting for oneself*
2*.not subject to another's authority or jurisdiction; autonomous; free*
3. not influenced by the thought or action of others
4. not dependent; not depending or contingent upon something else for existence, operation, etc.
5.not relying on another or others for aid or support.
6.rejecting others' aid or support; refusing to be under obligation to others.
7. *possessing a competency*
8. sufficient to support a person without his having to work
9. executed or originating outside a given unit, agency, business, etc.; external: an independent inquiry.
10. working for oneself or for a small, privately owned business.
11*. expressive of a spirit of independence; self-confident; unconstrained*


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## Mrs.LonelyGal (Nov 8, 2010)

AFEH said:


> You haven't "understood" or "comprehended" a single thing!
> 
> Your “name” Mrs.LonelyGal speaks volumes!



You wouldn't be the first male poster to make this comment.
I am actually not lonely. I have a great husband. I created that screen name during a low point in my marriage. I wish I could change it now to "Strong&Independent&Loved4WhoIam".


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Mrs.LonelyGal said:


> You wouldn't be the first male poster to make this comment.
> I am actually not lonely. I have a great husband. I created that screen name during a low point in my marriage. I wish I could change it now to "Strong&Independent&Loved4WhoIam".


Ok


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## Mrs.LonelyGal (Nov 8, 2010)

OK. I guess I have learned that I have no desire to be "feminine" if that means I can't also be strong and independent and respected for being all those things and be a woman at the same time.

I mean, I would like to think I am loved by my husband because I am whole person, strong, independent, intelligent, respectful and a female... I would also like to think I am respected by my staff because I am a whole person who does a good job, works hard and manages respectfully, and I just happen to be a female.

Feminine or not, I think it just fine for a woman or man to be any way they want to be in-spite of some people's oppinion of what masculine and feminine _should _be.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Mrs.LonelyGal said:


> OK. I guess I have learned that I have no desire to be "feminine" if that means I can't also be strong and independent and respected for being all those things and be a woman at the same time.
> 
> I mean, I would like to think I am loved by my husband because I am whole person, strong, independent, intelligent, respectful and a female... I would also like to think I am respected by my staff because I am a whole person who does a good job, works hard and manages respectfully, and I just happen to be a female.
> 
> Feminine or not, I think it just fine for a woman or man to be any way they want to be in-spite of some people's oppinion of what masculine and feminine _should _be.



Why did you join the thread? What were your motivations?


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## jenaa (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm almost 50 myself and I've been doing the online dating thing for about a year. The vast majority of women over 45 simply don't understand men at all. Worse, they have little regard or respect for what a man wants and needs. If you truly want to find love, regardless of age, have far more respect for men or run the risk of acquiring pets as a poor substitute for the real love and intimacy in a relationship with a man.

Now go out and be a real woman!

You're welcome [/QUOTE]

I'm really curious about this part...as a general rule, I seek out advise from older, more experienced people. Why do you think "women over 45 don't understand men at all, etc.." Since that is your generation, did you always think that women didn't understand, and now the newer generations are getting it (they are more real women)?


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

Mrs.LonelyGal said:


> So all little boys should get trucks and tools as toys and all little girls should get princesses and ponies for X-mas this year?


Give them what they _want _and you'll likely find that most girls do indeed prefer princesses and ponies and most boys will prefer trucks and tools.



> Let's not argue semantics anymore. Let's actually look at the words we have chosen.


Actually, the semantics are extremely important. The meanings of words and phrases are remarkably fluid and also very much context dependent. While intent might have one meaning, perception can be a very different meaning entirely.

While the dictionary is a good baseline, it does a remarkably poor job of covering connotations. Frankly, lexicographers can't keep up with the changing connotations and new meanings.

So while your _intent_ with the phrase "strong and independent" is to convey one meaning with a positive connotation, the audience and context give the _perception_ of that phrase a completely new meaning with a negative connotation. This is particularly true in the context of dating and relationships.

Should Amanda (remember her? She's the attractive 50 year old woman who is looking for love for whom this whole thread was created before it got hijacked with way too many first person pronouns) decide to try online dating, she must never, ever use the phrase "strong and independent" in her profile. This is because she must understand her audience (single guys) and how they perceive that phrase.


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## Mrs.LonelyGal (Nov 8, 2010)

Zammo said:


> Should Amanda (remember her? She's the attractive 50 year old woman who is looking for love for whom this whole thread was created before it got hijacked with way too many first person pronouns) decide to try online dating, she must never, ever use the phrase "strong and independent" in her profile. This is because she must understand her audience (single guys) and how they perceive that phrase.


No I didn't forget about Amanda. I just thought it was crummy advice to tell her to misrepresent herself if she is in fact a strong and independent woman.
Maybe she would be happy with a man who wanted a woman with those qualities?
At first I thought that you were implying that NO man would want a strong and independent woman, but surely you wouldn't say something like that. Some women have found love and managed to still be those things. I did.
Personally I think if she wants love and she is willing to look for it, regardless of her age, she should be able to find it by being herself.

Ok, I concede. I am not a man who uses online dating. Therefore, I should have just stayed out of it, altogether.

I obviously have absolutely no business commenting on this thread or any other thread in the Men's Clubhouse.

* I am out of here.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Zammo said:


> Give them what they _want _and you'll likely find that most girls do indeed prefer princesses and ponies and most boys will prefer trucks and tools.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I understand implicitly what you mean about the “actual” meanings of words. A word represents a “concept”. But for the same word, or phrase, the concept or meaning of the word or phrase can be so very different to different people. In fact, often two people will “interpret” the word or phrase in an exact opposite way.

English for example is supposedly a “common international language”. So we can all communicate. Right? Yes, it is right, but only to a certain degree. Simple things like “What’s the day today?” with the answer “Friday”. Question and answer implicitly understood by both parties to the dialogue.

Anything more complex though especially in the interpersonal man/woman world and where emotion is involved it is very very different. In this regard I believe there is always emotion in the mix in dialogues between man and woman. That emotion, at whatever intensity is always there. Not so when the dialogue is just between men and men only.


Of course there has been “personal stories” . People have the need to do that as a way of understanding what the words and phrases actually mean to them on a personal basis. That is they are going through their own, often at times unique, translation of the English words and phrases.

No problem with that. But a few seem totally unable to “abstract away from” their personalised meaning of the words and phrases and into the greater societal context. They keep it at their personalised level and therefore become somewhat paranoid and upset about it.

It is very like we all have our personalised “English Translation Dictionary”. And the translation is not into another language like French or Russian, but to our own personalised “English Language”.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Really posts like these pray on a woman's deepest insecurities and are not helpful. They are meant to bait women and for some reason men believe they are flawless when they get the responses they know the post will have while the women who are speaking for themselves are considered less than great women based upon the limited expression of themselves they can put across on a forum like this. We all struggle enough with our own demons, insecurities, strengths and good attributes. Can't we be more supportive and less demonstrative and judgmental of one another? I haven't been but I am going to try to be.

No one can say whether or not an individual will find love at any point in their lives. My perspective, I truly hope that they do, both men and women at any age or time. Our lives are more enriched by the love we allow in our lives and the judgments and anger we willingly let go of to do so.

I'm soon to be off to a family Christmas Eve party followed by mad wrapping of my kid's presents and a happy Christmas morning. I wish everyone a wonderful, love filled holiday.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I understand implicitly what you mean about the “actual” meanings of words. A word represents a “concept”. But for the same word, or phrase, the concept or meaning of the word or phrase can be so very different to different people. In fact, often two people will “interpret” the word or phrase in an exact opposite way.
> 
> English for example is supposedly a “common international language”. So we can all communicate. Right? Yes, it is right, but only to a certain degree. Simple things like “What’s the day today?” with the answer “Friday”. Question and answer implicitly understood by both parties to the dialogue.
> 
> ...


Bob,

This is so true.

We disagreed on the word "party" - as to whether "partying with someone" includes having sex.

It can be a minefield.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I guess that is the difference between men and women. I hear strong and independent and I think exactly that. For me, if I was a guy, those would be welcoming words. I would think "cool" she manages her own money, takes care of herself and is more than likely not going to look at my wallet to help her out. 
Wouldn't this be a good thing? 
I am still very interested in the definition of "feminine" and now "demure and soft". The only image that comes to my mind when I hear those words are Jessica Rabbit which I am sure had she been real would be somebody that men would want a roll in the hay with but not as wife material. Not sure though.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> Really posts like these pray on a woman's deepest insecurities and are not helpful. They are meant to bait women


Yes, and it is only a cheap thrill to bait the baiters, so I'll stop, too.


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

> But a few seem totally unable to “abstract away from” their personalized meaning of the words and phrases and into the greater societal context. *They keep it at their personalized level* and therefore become somewhat paranoid and upset about it.


This is very, very true.

The word "solipsistic" comes to mind.

Mrs.LonelyGal was quite adamant about sticking to her phrase. It would have been so much easier for her to recommend another phrase without the negative connotations.

"Resilient and self-reliant" would work just as well.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Having read Amanda's previous posts, she sounds like a charming lady. Given her scarcity in the thread, hopefully she's already out there successfully dating.

I have a hard time not shaking my head every time a female poster feels compelled to jump to the defense of women, when women (in the context of the thread) need no defending.

Zammo's recommendation of 'Resilent and self-reliant' is the better choice for conveying a neutral or pleasant connotation to a MALE reader of a woman's online dating profile.

Just as if you are a guy, putting in your profile that you are 'Sensitive and Caring' is the online equivalent of leprosy. You just don't do it. Period.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Deejo said:


> Just as if you are a guy, putting in your profile that you are 'Sensitive and Caring' is the online equivalent of leprosy. You just don't do it. Period.


 And the guys who do -what of them? 

Personally if I was single & looking, I would specifically look for guys who would descrbe themselves in such a manner. I think most of the time it probably wouldn't be true as everyone tries to make themselves sound better than they are, but even if HALF of that was true, I would want it over Exciting -life of the party- confident talk--as everyone describes themselves like this & It comes off as bragging. I am sure this is half truths also- just to get the attention to sound more manly.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Zammo said:


> This is very, very true.
> 
> The word "solipsistic" comes to mind.
> 
> ...



Life is truly good when all childhood issues have been resolved, forgiven and forgotten in such a way that they don’t interfere at the subconscious level with our adult ego. When we’re truly happy and comfortable with who we are both on the inside and the outside. When the world we’ve created around us brings us unexpected blessings and each day brings it’s own joy. When we see what we’ve invested in our life’s journey grow and mature in delightful although sometimes in somewhat unexpected ways. When we know that our past decisions were in the main correct and that we’ve learnt from our failures in life.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Having read Amanda's previous posts, she sounds like a charming lady. Given her scarcity in the thread, hopefully she's already out there successfully dating.
> 
> I have a hard time not shaking my head every time a female poster feels compelled to jump to the defense of women, when women (in the context of the thread) need no defending.
> 
> ...


See, I guess that's the difference between men and women. If I read sensitive and caring, I would think just that. A guy who might be sensitive and cared about me/my needs. 
So in the online dating world "independent" for a woman means ball busting shrew and "caring" for a man means "Momma's boy"?
Lordy, I would SUCK in the online dating world.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> And the guys who do -what of them?
> 
> Personally if I was single & looking, I would specifically look for guys who would descrbe themselves in such a manner. I think most of the time it probably wouldn't be true as everyone tries to make themselves sound better than they are, but even if HALF of that was true, I would want it over Exciting -life of the party- confident talk--as everyone describes themselves like this & It comes off as bragging. I am sure this is half truths also- just to get the attention to sound more manly.



Lucky this isn't a dating website there wouldn't be any dates lol.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I would personally be seeking out the most believable- with added Humilty in the profile. Where admitted faults can he expressed but also the good things. Anything less, I would expect another DUD -the sole reason this person has been single for so long to begin with , someone with their heads in the clouds & always trying to prove something. 

A male friend told me this one day about Men seeking women to date, especially when you get older... He said with a serious look on his face (from experience) , you will only be able to find 2 out of this 3 ....

1. Available 
2. Good Looking 
3. Sane 

To hit the jackpot for all 3 could take years or a lifetime.


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

Brennan said:


> So in the online dating world "independent" for a woman means ball busting shrew and "caring" for a man means "Momma's boy"?
> Lordy, I would SUCK in the online dating world.


Online dating is a pretty crazy place. It's where social expectations don't mix well with the biological imperative.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

With the abysmally poor communication between some of the women here and the men, I am left wondering just how “accurate” the women’s communication is in their off-line male/female relationships.

It is so far off base here that it often seems premeditated, deliberate and designed to cause conflict, much like the behaviour of a troll.

But then I see the emotion in some of the responses which makes me think otherwise.

I know for a fact that communication between men and women can at times be like walking through a minefield, for both sexes.

Anybody in business, man or women, who hasn’t learnt how to effectively communicate is probably operating at just 60% of their true potential. And there is many a problem in a marriage solved by effective communication skills, while on the other hand problems in a marriage can be made immensely worse and totally irresolvable by the lack of them.

“You don’t understand me” is a true cop out for poor communication skills. “Seek first to understand. And then seek to be understood”. The key word here is “seek”.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I would personally be seeking out the most believable- with added Humilty in the profile. Where admitted faults can he expressed but also the good things. Anything less, I would expect another DUD -the sole reason this person has been single for so long to begin with , someone with their heads in the clouds & always trying to prove something.
> 
> A male friend told me this one day about Men seeking women to date, especially when you get older... He said with a serious look on his face (from experience) , you will only be able to find 2 out of this 3 ....
> 
> ...



I guess it's all a matter of choice SA. I’ve never been near dating websites and never will. I’m far more likely to meet a woman in a diy store or some such place. It’ll give me time to check her out for first impressions!


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## jenaa (Dec 3, 2010)

I still don't get the part about women over 45 not understanding men at all.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

jenaa said:


> I still don't get the part about women over 45 not understanding men at all.


I am confused! Don't they have more experience? Because of the years they were born? Do they read? Do they try to understand men? 

Sometimes I find what is going on in the men's club interesting. Some girls get irritated by some random topic which I don't find irritating at all. I just don't take it personally as long as the post didn't direct to me. He is dominant or not is not my business, hope he is happy being dominant. She is argumentative or not is not my business, hope she is happy this way. Why would people argue and attack random irrelevant others? Why would they feel threatened?


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## Zammo (Aug 9, 2010)

jenaa said:


> I still don't get the part about women over 45 not understanding men at all.


And as a woman, you'll likely never get it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Life is truly good when all childhood issues have been resolved, forgiven and forgotten in such a way that they don’t interfere at the subconscious level with our adult ego. When we’re truly happy and comfortable with who we are both on the inside and the outside. When the world we’ve created around us brings us unexpected blessings and each day brings it’s own joy. When we see what we’ve invested in our life’s journey grow and mature in delightful although sometimes in somewhat unexpected ways. When we know that our past decisions were in the main correct and that we’ve learnt from our failures in life.


This is undeniable truth.

It's the antithesis of "having something to prove."


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## jenaa (Dec 3, 2010)

Zammo said:


> And as a woman, you'll likely never get it.


Right. Guess I'll continue to trust my mama, older sister in laws and sisters, who are all happily married. 

Crossing my fingers that I don't wind up in the world of online dating competing for the attention of some old fart...


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## jenaa (Dec 3, 2010)

AFEH said:


> In a way we all create our own destiny. Reckon you have just created yours. Attitudes, especially bad ones, seem to have a habit of doing just that.


Ok that was obnoxious, I retract it.

Seriously, I wouldn't put "I am strong and independent" in a dating profile because it does kind of come off as kind of chip on the shoulderish about men. Like saying I don't need you! I think confindence and happiness are attractive in anybody. I am naturally playful, feminine, and joyful with my man. Certainly he's strong and masculine, I wouldn't have him any other way.

But I don't see how this applies to age. Maybe some older women have lost their gilrlish enthusiasm? Confidence in their sexual attraction, so they don't comport themselves in a certain way? Have had bad experiences, and become bitter about men? 

I have seen many older women and men find love again after divorce or death , usually with people with around their own age. The internet is a useful new tool for dating, but I do guess you probably have to weed through a lot more messed up people, too. From what I've seen, though, it is still easier for a woman to get a date than a man. So all is right in the world. lol

Maybe "they don't understand" was just a poor choice of words. Because of course, as a general rule, the older people get, the more they understand about the ways of the world.

Anyone that's become bitter about the opposite sex is going to be less attractive.


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## Izabella (Dec 22, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> And the guys who do -what of them?
> 
> Personally if I was single & looking, I would specifically look for guys who would descrbe themselves in such a manner.
> ************************************************
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> I am confused! Don't they have more experience? Because of the years they were born? Do they read? Do they try to understand men?
> 
> Sometimes I find what is going on in the men's club interesting. Some girls get irritated by some random topic which I don't find irritating at all. I just don't take it personally as long as the post didn't direct to me. He is dominant or not is not my business, hope he is happy being dominant. She is argumentative or not is not my business, hope she is happy this way. Why would people argue and attack random irrelevant others? Why would they feel threatened?



A good friend once told me she thinks women “spend more time looking back” and men “spend more time looking forward”. So maybe that explains it?

Men are “problem solvers”. Does that mean it is far more likely for men to have resolved their problems from their past (childhood, marriage, work related problems etc) than women?

There are many people who have unresolved issues in their lives. And they quite simply walk right into a new relationship with those very same issues and “project” them into the new relationship. And that new relationship doesn’t stand any chance of success.

I know I’m not ready for a new relationship simply because as yet I have not found a way of resolving my particular issues from my past. Meanwhile I’m happy and content living by myself.

Bob


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bob,

I've been doing it the "other way".

And, it's been quite difficult at times.

Resolving things "real-time" is often a frustrating and humbling experience.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> I've been doing it the "other way".
> 
> ...



Yes. Sometimes we have to “face our shadow side”. We’ve all got good and bad in us, our shadow is where the bad is. Our shadow is humbling but it is where the growth is in a person once it’s known, accepted and worked on.

But without both participants working on their shadows in an open and emotionally honest way the shadow is forever there in the person. And they take that shadow with them until the day they pass away. They don’t learn and grow, the don’t change and are stuck in their own time warp. Maybe in some respects the time when they were a child of seven or eight.



Carl Jungs Shadow Description
Hidden or unconscious aspects of oneself, both good and bad, which the ego has either repressed or never recognized. (See also repression.)

The shadow is a moral problem that challenges the whole ego personality, for no one can become conscious of the shadow without considerable moral effort. To become conscious of it involves recognizing the dark aspects of the personality as present and real. ["The Shadow," CW 9ii, par. 14.]

Before unconscious contents have been differentiated, the shadow is in effect the whole of the unconscious. It is commonly personified in dreams by persons of the same sex as the dreamer.
The shadow is composed for the most part of repressed desires and uncivilized impulses, morally inferior motives, childish fantasies and resentments, etc. ... all those things about oneself one is not proud of.

These unacknowledged personal characteristics are often experienced in others through the mechanism of projection.
Although, with insight and good will, the shadow can to some extent be assimilated into the conscious personality, experience shows that there are certain features which offer the most obstinate resistance to moral control and prove almost impossible to influence.

These resistances are usually bound up with projections, which are not recognized as such, and their recognition is a moral achievement beyond the ordinary. While some traits peculiar to the shadow can be recognized without too much difficulty as one's personal qualities, in this case both insight and good will are unavailing because the cause of the emotion appears to lie, beyond all possibility of doubt, in the other person. [Ibid., par. 16.]

The realization of the shadow is inhibited by the persona. To the degree that we identify with a bright persona, the shadow is correspondingly dark. Thus shadow and persona stand in a compensatory relationship, and the conflict between them is invariably present in an outbreak of neurosis. The characteristic depression at such times indicates the need to realize that one is not all one pretends or wishes to be.

There is no generally effective technique for assimilating the shadow. It is more like diplomacy or statesmanship and it is always an individual matter. First one has to accept and take seriously the existence of the shadow. Second, one has to become aware of its qualities and intentions. This happens through conscientious attention to moods, fantasies and impulses. Third, a long process of negotiation is unavoidable.

It is a therapeutic necessity, indeed, the first requisite of any thorough psychological method, for consciousness to confront its shadow. In the end this must lead to some kind of union, even though the union consists at first in an open conflict, and often remains so for a long time. It is a struggle that cannot be abolished by rational means. When it is wilfully repressed it continues in the unconscious and merely expresses itself indirectly and all the more dangerously, so no advantage is gained. The struggle goes on until the opponents run out of breath. What the outcome will be can never be seen in advance. The only certain thing is that both parties will be changed. ["Rex and Regina," CW 14, par. 514.]

This process of coming to terms with the Other in us is well worth while, because in this way we get to know aspects of our nature which we would not allow anybody else to show us and which we ourselves would never have admitted. [The Conjunction," ibid., par. 706.]

Responsibility for the shadow rests with the ego. That is why the shadow is a moral problem. It is one thing to realize what it looks like ... what we are capable of. It is quite something else to determine what we can live out, or with.

Confrontation with the shadow produces at first a dead balance, a standstill that hampers moral decisions and makes convictions ineffective or even impossible. Everything becomes doubtful. [Ibid., par. 708.]

The shadow is not, however, only the dark underside of the personality. It also consists of instincts, abilities and positive moral qualities that have long been buried or never been conscious.
The shadow is merely somewhat inferior, primitive, unadapted, and awkward; not wholly bad. It even contains childish or primitive qualities which would in a way vitalize and embellish human existence, but ... convention forbids![Psychology and Religion," CW 11, par. 134.]

If it has been believed hitherto that the human shadow was the source of all evil, it can now be ascertained on closer investigation that the unconscious man, that is, his shadow, does not consist only of morally reprehensible tendencies, but also displays a number of good qualities, such as normal instincts, appropriate reactions, realistic insights, creative impulses, etc. [Conclusion," CW 9ii, par. 423.]

An outbreak of neurosis constellates both sides of the shadow: those qualities and activities one is not proud of, and new possibilities one never knew were there.
Jung distinguished between the personal and the collective or archetypal shadow.

With a little self criticism one can see through the shadow ... so far as its nature is personal. But when it appears as an archetype, one encounters the same difficulties as with anima and animus. In other words, it is quite within the bounds of possibility for a man to recognize the relative evil of his nature, but it is a rare and shattering experience for him to gaze into the face of absolute evil. ["The Shadow," ibid., par. 19.]


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Bob,

I've found some success at deploying the shadow in support of what I wish to be.

Sounds convoluted, but I can give a concise summary.

If you are trying to "prove something" to someone else - and you realize that your detractors "will be right/have the last laugh" if you fail, a competitive shadow persona can become your best friend.

It brings strength to the conviction not to be beaten. And, everyone ends up winning.

I hope that's clear.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> I've found some success at deploying the shadow in support of what I wish to be.
> 
> ...



Conrad, I’m not sure if I’ve understood you.

If I win and somebody else loses, especially those closest to me, then I consider I too have “lost”. If I “lose” and somebody else wins, then obviously I’ve lost.

So I don’t go for win/lose or lose/win. I always go for win/win as I see the other two options as a “no win”, for me.

Sometimes it’s exceedingly hard to get to that win/win situation and the path towards it can be had only at great personal sacrifice. But sometimes the sacrifice is way too much so I declare a “no win” situation. Even at times an “Let’s agree to disagree and move on” quite simply doesn’t work.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

AFEH said:


> A good friend once told me she thinks women “spend more time looking back” and men “spend more time looking forward”. So maybe that explains it?
> 
> I agree, my husband says that women like to sit there and feel sorry for themselves, they like to waste their time and energy.
> 
> ...


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