# Don't Ask a Deer How To Hunt It (or whatever it is)



## Faithful Wife

There's a really silly saying something like the title of this thread, implying that in order to "get" a woman, you don't ask her or other women how to "get" her...because since we are like deer (ie: prey) we don't WANT men to catch us, therefore women would tell you lies if you asked them how to catch us.

:scratchhead:

The problem with this saying is that if a man starts with the premise that women don't want him and actually feel like his "prey" and want to escape his clutches (apparently because she feels he will kill and eat her? :scratchhead: ) ...then of course this is a man who doesn't realize that....

*women aren't the "prey" of men

*women want to be in love and have sex, just like men, sometimes women even want to just have sex and not love, just like some men

*women do not need to be "tricked", caught, or shot with arrows in order to want to be with the right man for her


I feel sorry for any man who feels women run from him afraid for their lives, like a deer. Men, if that has been your experience, I'd say you are actually listening to the wrong advice, no matter who you are listening to.


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## that_girl

Just the age old 'belief' that women are property. Something to "have". She's MY woman...and all that nonsense.

There is something to be said about the chase, but if you're getting your advice from other men (especially if they're single), then you'll do it wrong.


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## treyvion

that_girl said:


> Just the age old 'belief' that women are property. Something to "have". She's MY woman...and all that nonsense.
> 
> There is something to be said about the chase, but if you're getting your advice from other men (especially if they're single), then you'll do it wrong.


Singles can teach you how to be single and how to conjugate with single ladies.


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## Almostrecovered

(meekly takes down his woman head mount display)


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## Faithful Wife

My hubby absolutely considers me HIS woman...yet never once did he think I would run away, avoid his pursuit, or try to get him off my case by some kind of evasion. Never been his experience that women run like deer from him. So sad for men who that has been the case with, but those men are not doing something right.

Who did my husband ask what I want and how I want it? He asked me.


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## chillymorn

you just need a BIG GUN.....you know size matters!


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## John Lee

I think it's a bad metaphor. I think what people who say it are really getting at is "what women say they want is not always consistent with what they respond to." Does anyone remember the movie "Tootsie"? There's that scene where the female lead tells Dustin Hoffman (when he is in drag, thinking he's a woman) that she wishes a man would just approach her and say openly that he wanted to sleep with her. Then when Dustin Hoffman (no longer in drag) tries it later, she throws a drink in his face. 

I think it's human nature, not just female.


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## Faithful Wife

I fully understand what the saying means. It still doesn't work as the implication behind it is that men have to "catch" women and that women don't want to be "caught".

If that's true for you, you're doing something wrong.


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## WorkingOnMe

John Lee said:


> I think it's a bad metaphor. I think what people who say it are really getting at is "what women say they want is not always consistent with what they respond to." Does anyone remember the movie "Tootsie"? There's that scene where the female lead tells Dustin Hoffman (when he is in drag, thinking he's a woman) that she wishes a man would just approach her and say openly that he wanted to sleep with her. Then when Dustin Hoffman (no longer in drag) tries it later, she throws a drink in his face.
> 
> I think it's human nature, not just female.


That's exactly what I mean when I say it. Has nothing to do with prey or running for their lives, although it's an interesting visual. For the record I'd say the same thing to a woman who is taking advice from her man about what he needs in the relationship to be attracted. There are many examples here of women doing the things their husband's say they need and not getting results. The reality is, people often don't know what the problem is or what they need.


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## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> There's a really silly saying something like the title of this thread, implying that in order to "get" a woman, you don't ask her or other women how to "get" her...because since we are like deer (ie: prey) we don't WANT men to catch us, therefore women would tell you lies if you asked them how to catch us.
> 
> :scratchhead:
> 
> The problem with this saying is that if a man starts with the premise that women don't want him and actually feel like his "prey" and want to escape his clutches (apparently because she feels he will kill and eat her? :scratchhead: ) ...then of course this is a man who doesn't realize that....
> 
> *women aren't the "prey" of men
> 
> *women want to be in love and have sex, just like men, sometimes women even want to just have sex and not love, just like some men
> 
> *women do not need to be "tricked", caught, or shot with arrows in order to want to be with the right man for her


Because some men don't care if it is is right for her. He just wants one. Anyone he can stick his d!ck into on a regular basis. What SHE wants is not relevant.




> I feel sorry for any man who feels women run from him afraid for their lives, like a deer. Men, if that has been your experience, I'd say you are actually listening to the wrong advice, no matter who you are listening to.


This attitude is also the #1 reason for any perceived LACK of success which strikes me kind of funny.


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## Faithful Wife

My husband's never steered me wrong when asking him how I can best fulfill his needs. :scratchhead:

Perhaps the people you are chasing, if they are in fact running and giving you answers to throw you off their trail...actually don't want to be with you?


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## TiggyBlue

That saying never meant any sense to me wither, never sure If they are trying to attract women or mount woman's heads onto their wall lol


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## Almostrecovered

TiggyBlue said:


> That saying never meant any sense to me wither, never sure If they are trying to attract women or mount their heads onto their wall lol


well when I drive my wife anywhere I just strap her to the roof of my car


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## WorkingOnMe

Faithful Wife said:


> My husband's never steered me wrong when asking him how I can best fulfill his needs. :scratchhead:


Well good for you. So because you're married to a man who is self aware enough that he actually knows what works with him, everyone else should leave their marriages? Is the air a little thin up there on that high horse of yours?

For me personally, I'm much more in the opposite situation now. I'm not feeling it (as you know) and my wife is asking what she needs to do to make me get back to feeling it, and frankly I don't know. And if I told her what to do there's a good chance it wouldn't work.

By the way, if you tell someone what they have to do to make you feel loved and they do it, in many cases it doesn't have the effect because it doesn't seem like it came from the heart. Your husband telling you what he needs and you doing it is not nearly as satisfying as you just doing those same things because you love and understand him. You're asking a deer for hunting tips. You're getting good tips that work, but the fact is, he knows the tips you've been given.


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## Almostrecovered

I also admit that my taxidermy skills are poor as I keep having to stuff her


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## Faithful Wife

I dunno WOM...I just don't get your situation. You don't seem happy, so I'm never sure what you really mean when you are posting. Do you love her? Hate her? I honestly can't tell. I get that you are frustrated...but I really never hear anything that seems to show there is hope (just from your posts).

We are here to talk about marriage, right? I have a complicated marriage, but my H and I are very in love and I like to talk about that. That makes me be on a high horse? sigh...whatever.

I'm in love and want to shout it from rooftops. That's how (some) people who are in love behave. Sue me.


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## that_girl

Yessss. Nothing worse than having to tell someone how to treat you. When they do it, it seems contrived.


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## TiggyBlue

WorkingOnMe said:


> *
> By the way, if you tell someone what they have to do to make you feel loved and they do it, in many cases it doesn't have the effect because it doesn't seem like it came from the heart. Your husband telling you what he needs and you doing it is not nearly as satisfying as you just doing those same things because you love and understand him.*


I agree with that but at the same time people aren't mind readers, sometimes it's easier to tell your spouse what makes you feel loved than waiting for them to develop telepathy.


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## that_girl

I thought this post was about the initial meeting of someone, etc...the chase.

But in a relationship, I don't know how it should be.


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## Faithful Wife

They use the saying for both dating, "getting a woman into bed", and in marriages.


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## WorkingOnMe

TiggyBlue said:


> I agree with that but at the same time people aren't mind readers, sometimes it's easier to tell your spouse what makes you feel loved than waiting for them to develop telepathy.


I suspect that, in a good relationship like FW's, doing things that you're told to do probably accounts for relatively little. She's likely "naturally" doing a lot more without having to be told that's what he needs. And the same for him.


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## Faithful Wife

Lol!

Um...Marriage Builders, emotional needs questionaires. Very simple to use as just one of many communication tools. Plus tweaks and changes throughout our lives as we grow and our needs change.

I don't understand why there is an assumption of lack of communication possible between spouses. That is just silly.

My husband and I both have a lot of complicated needs, and there's no reason not to discuss them and even let each other know when we aren't meeting them enough or whatever.

"Naturally" doing a lot more without having to be told? Well yeah but only because we've been together so long now and the needs he told me about in the beginning are being fulfilled regularly at this point. None of it was "natural" to me when we met.


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## TiggyBlue

WorkingOnMe said:


> I suspect that, in a good relationship like FW's, doing things that you're told to do probably accounts for relatively little. She's likely "naturally" doing a lot more without having to be told that's what he needs. And the same for him.


Is FW really doing what her husband tells her to do though?
Her husband told her what his needs are, I suspect she does what she can to fulfill them because she cares about him and wants him to fill as cherished as she can.


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## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> I feel sorry for any man who feels women run from him afraid for their lives, like a deer. Men, if that has been your experience, I'd say you are actually listening to the wrong advice, no matter who you are listening to.


Actually ... I think you just misinterpreted the analogy.

But you're right. It is silly.

I like the baseball one much better.


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## Faithful Wife

Nope, I haven't misinterpreted it, Deejo.

There are similar stupid analogies that women use about how to "catch" a man, and they are all ridiculous as well.


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## SoWhat

I think asking _anyone_ what they prefer in a mate is a lot less effective than observing what they choose. 

So I never bothered asking women, just as I never bothered asking men. You just watch and see what happens. 

However, I think that women's stated preferences tend to be more often at odds with their behavior than men. This is backed up by experimental research:

------------------------------

*Women Feel More Distant From Uglier Mates At High Fertility 
*
When she says, 'It's not you, it's me,' it really might be you, UCLA study suggests

"Women with the really good, stable guy felt more distant at high-fertility periods than low-fertility periods," Haselton said. "That isn't the case with women who were mated to particularly sexually attractive men. The closeness of their relationships got a boost just prior to ovulation."

-----------


*Women Inaccurately Downplay Role Of Physical Attraction and Inaccurately Overrate Importance of Commitment *

""...Weiderman and Dubois (1998) have found men accurately indicated that the physical attractiveness of the targets was the most important characteristic that influenced their desirability ratings, whereas women inaccurately indicated that desired level of relationship commitment was their most important factor, when, in fact, it was one of the least important factors behaviorally. Sprecher (1989) found similar results, in that women inaccurately assessed the role of physical attractiveness in their own ratings of a target man. The women in Sprecher’s study reported that expressiveness was the most important factor in their choice, although it was the least important factor behaviorally. Physical attractiveness was the most important factor that actually influenced their ratings. The results of these two studies suggest that women’s self-reported preferences may not match their actual choices."

--------------

*Women's Stated Turn-Ons Differ From Actual Arousal Cues
*
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

"The men, on average, responded genitally in what Chivers terms “category specific” ways. Males who identified themselves as straight swelled while gazing at heterosexual or lesbian sex and while watching the masturbating and exercising women. They were mostly unmoved when the screen displayed only men. Gay males were aroused in the opposite categorical pattern....

All was different with the women. No matter what their self-proclaimed sexual orientation, they showed, on the whole, strong and swift genital arousal when the screen offered men with men, women with women and women with men. They responded objectively much more to the exercising woman than to the strolling man, and their blood flow rose quickly — and markedly, though to a lesser degree than during all the human scenes except the footage of the ambling, strapping man — as they watched the apes. "


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## Faithful Wife

You really think these small, unmarried college student survey studies are more informative than say, John Gottman's long study of work with real married couples?

Have fun with that.


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## SoWhat

Faithful Wife said:


> You really think these small, unmarried college student survey studies are more informative than say, John Gottman's long study of work with real married couples?
> 
> Have fun with that.



I think they provide some insight, yes. That insight is: women's stated preferences often differ from their actual choices/turn-ons. 

This is relevant to the question of whether or not a "hunter should listen to a deer"; that is, whether or not a man will be more successful "getting" a woman if he acts in way X or Y, or looks more like A or B. 

Of course, none of this requires that we use the "deer" metaphor. None of this requires that we pretend women are property of men that can be "gotten."


I interpreted the OP to be about the beginning stages of a relationships or even before that, not long-married couples.


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## ScarletBegonias

WorkingOnMe said:


> By the way, if you tell someone what they have to do to make you feel loved and they do it, in many cases it doesn't have the effect because it doesn't seem like it came from the heart. Your husband telling you what he needs and you doing it is not nearly as satisfying as you just doing those same things because you love and understand him.


On one hand I get this but on the other I'm like :scratchhead:

When Dh and I dated our conversations were centered around revealing our relationship needs many times. We were telling each other our physical needs and our emotional needs. 

As the relationship progresses we still have to touch base if we aren't getting our needs met. The times I had the mindset you're referring to is when disaster hit us. The more I felt he should just KNOW my needs the more resentful I became til I made some pretty foolish mistakes. 

Yeah it sucks to have to tell someone your needs but it's necessary sometimes and it doesn't mean anything bad when they rise to meet those needs. It shouldn't mean less just bc you had to verbalize what you needed from them. We should be focusing on the fact that we have someone who listened and did their best to fulfill our need. If I have to tell my husband what my needs are so he can fulfill them it doesn't mean he loves me less and it doesn't mean he doesn't understand me. 

To view having to communicate your needs as a negative seems counterproductive and stubborn in a way.


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## SoWhat

And reading the OP more carefully, I guess I understand the sentiment hypothetically expressed in the title differently than you do.

That is, when guys say stuff like this around me, I take them to mean that women's advice on attracting women is generally ineffective, NOT that women are trying to avoid men's evil, dirty clutches. 

So a woman might say: "Oh, if you like Cheryl, you should just be nice, send her flowers, flatter her, tell her she's the most beautiful woman you've ever seen. Don't be arrogant! Don't ever allude to other women wanting you! Be sweet, don't be sexual, she needs time to get comfortable with you..."

In many men's experiences, that sort of advice is really misguided. 

Not all women give this sort of advice, of course.


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## Faithful Wife

SoWhat....this metaphor is applied to dating women, "getting sex from them" (ie: without "giving" them a commitment), and also they apply this term in marriage.

And yes, SoWhat, I'm aware of they men think that women give bad advice for "getting" women, I really am aware of how and why this type of discussion started and the books, etc. which developed out of it.

I fully get it...and am saying it is nonsense.


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## WorkingOnMe

Faithful Wife said:


> SoWhat....this metaphor is applied to dating women, "getting sex from them" (ie: without "giving" them a commitment), and also they apply this term in marriage.
> 
> And yes, SoWhat, I'm aware of they men think that women give bad advice for "getting" women, I really am aware of how and why this type of discussion started and the books, etc. which developed out of it.
> 
> I fully get it...and am saying it is nonsense.


So you think, in general, that women give good advice on how to attract themselves and other women? Can you explain why it is that there are so many stories of men following this advice and being unsuccessful, and then those same men following successful men's advice and being successful? I'll admit that the examples I've seen are anecdotal. Perhaps there is a group of bearded middle aged psychiatrists who have "studied" the issue and no all about it.


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## SoWhat

I see.

Again, I don't see why it would be more effective to ask women than to observe women. I think this applies to men as well.

People will show you what they want even if they don't tell you what they want.


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## WorkingOnMe

lol this last bit of discussion reminded me of dating my wife 24 years ago! We worked in neighboring buildings and I saw her often. A mutual friend of ours, a woman, started giving me advice on how to ask her out. Haha, it was the first time a woman had given me that kind of advice....never needed it before. I guess the "pace" of our developing relationship wasn't fast enough for her. I was a bit shy about asking a woman out from work, and I had just moved back on base after having lived with a couple strippers for 9 months. But the funny thing is....our female friend's advice worked. And rather than getting in trouble for sexual harassment (which they drilled into us over and over in the service) I ended up marrying her.


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## SoWhat

WorkingOnMe said:


> So you think, in general, that women give good advice on how to attract themselves and other women? Can you explain why it is that there are so many stories of men following this advice and being unsuccessful, and then those same men following successful men's advice and being successful? I'll admit that the examples I've seen are anecdotal. Perhaps there is a group of bearded middle aged psychiatrists who have "studied" the issue and no all about it.


Dark Triad traits as more attractive:

http://www.pipubs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/The-Dark-Triad-Personality-1.pdf

We'd have to have data that showed women are more likely to encourage NON dark triad behavior and that men are more likely to give advice suggesting that Dark Triad behavior is more likely to lead to desired results. 

I'm not sure that we have that.


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## Mr. Nail

Faithful Wife,
I'm usually pretty cautious when you bring up a topic. So I read a lot of this thread. 
Yes the analogy suffers. But we do chase and catch. We put out bait. 
I still find the advice at the heart of the analogy to be helpful. Unlike you I do find that the advice I get from women is a good indicator of what they want intellectually, and a poor indicator of what will light their fire, catch their eye, give them butterflies. 
I honestly believe that my wife wants me to help around the house more. I do not believe that it will increase her desire for me even a tiny bit. It will make her more relaxed. Relaxed does not equal amrous. 
I really am jealous of the communication level you and your husband have achieved. Over the past 15 years. Communication in my marriage has declined steadily. Last year the answer to any question about desires was "I don't know" and I believe it. Last week the request to do a survey together was met with a solid stone wall "No". 
That led me to start experimenting wildly. I may have finally hit on what it is the deer is looking for. Only time will tell, she won't.
MN


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## Faithful Wife

WorkingOnMe said:


> So you think, in general, that women give good advice on how to attract themselves and other women? Can you explain why it is that there are so many stories of men following this advice and being unsuccessful, and then those same men following successful men's advice and being successful? I'll admit that the examples I've seen are anecdotal. Perhaps there is a group of bearded middle aged psychiatrists who have "studied" the issue and no all about it.


Are you not aware that what you speak of is NOT the only research out there?

When they study happily married people to find out what they are doing "right", they don't come back with "well the woman doesn't seem to know what she really wants, so successfully married men have learned to bypass what she says by reading books on the internet".

Further, for all the massive "success" some of you guys ascribe to the "women don't know what they want so listen to us men tell you what women want" method, do you not think there are also thousands of men who tried THAT and failed, also? Giving to the idea that possibly, "women don't know what they want" is not some kind of universal truth?


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## WorkingOnMe

Faithful Wife said:


> Are you not aware that what you speak of is NOT the only research out there?
> 
> When they study happily married people to find out what they are doing "right", they don't come back with "well the woman doesn't seem to know what she really wants, so successfully married men have learned to bypass what she says by reading books on the internet".
> 
> Further, for all the massive "success" some of you guys ascribe to the "women don't know what they want so listen to us men tell you what women want" method, do you not think there are also thousands of men who tried THAT and failed, also? Giving to the idea that possibly, "women don't know what they want" is not some kind of universal truth?


Come on, you know that papa knows what's best for you....

lol


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## ReformedHubby

I would have to say that the best advice I ever got on how to attract women always came from males. In particular the males that have or had a reputation as ladies men. Their advice wasn't really focused on chasing or hunting at all. It really was more about luring and attracting than anything else. Basically they taught me to notice the ones that noticed me and focus on them. It may seem like a lazy way to go about things to many men, but it actually does work.


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## Faithful Wife

Yes he does, WOM...because I told him, and I'm self-aware enough to know what to tell him.

On TOP of that...he brings me his own special blend that I could have never asked for, as it is his unique contribution to my life. Yumm!


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## Faithful Wife

ReformedHubby said:


> I would have to say that the best advice I ever got on how to attract women always came from males. In particular the males that have or had a reputation as ladies men. Their advice wasn't really focused on chasing or hunting at all. It really was more about luring and attracting than anything else. Basically they taught me to notice the ones that noticed me and focus on them. It may seem like a lazy way to go about things to many men, but it actually does work.


That's my advice always, RH. It isn't lazy. It is the key to real attraction.


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## Faithful Wife

WorkingOnMe said:


> lol this last bit of discussion reminded me of dating my wife 24 years ago! We worked in neighboring buildings and I saw her often. A mutual friend of ours, a woman, started giving me advice on how to ask her out. Haha, it was the first time a woman had given me that kind of advice....never needed it before. I guess the "pace" of our developing relationship wasn't fast enough for her. I was a bit shy about asking a woman out from work, and I had just moved back on base after having lived with a couple strippers for 9 months. But the funny thing is....our female friend's advice worked. And rather than getting in trouble for sexual harassment (which they drilled into us over and over in the service) I ended up marrying her.


So the woman gave you good advice then, eh? That's good to know.


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## ocotillo

I don't know, maybe it falls into the category of, "Believable fiction?"

In another thread, I pointed out that one of the most persistent themes in romantic fiction is the idea of two strangers meeting; having a personality clash and out of that personality clash, the flames of romance burst forth. I could give a hundred examples without even breaking a sweat.

But almost everybody (Male and female alike) agreed that the idea might sound good, but doesn't really work in real life. Yet that idea has sold for literally centuries.

I don't have an iron in this fire at all, but as an observer of people, it is curious that anyone could simultaneously hold fictionalized ideas of what is attractive *and* practical ideas of what is attractive and that the two could be at odds with each other. :scratchhead:


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## Faithful Wife

Not sure about your last sentence, ocotillo, perhaps I don't understand what you mean.

I want to be clear...I'm not saying that MEN can't give anyone good dating or marriage advice, nor am I saying that all women are self-aware or give good dating or marriage advice. I think both men and women can give good advice to either men or women. (Not all men and not all women, however, of course).

I'm really just getting at the error in thought behind the deer analogy. That you need to "trick" women, because they don't want you to "catch" them, and/or that none of them are self-aware enough to state their actual needs and desires. If a man thinks this, he's already coming from the wrong direction.

If women were repeatedly saying the same thing in some other way..."men don't know what they want, they are unaware, they will try to throw you off balance, they are not aware that we can bypass their ignorance with these secret techniques"...then I would also say this is ridiculous and gender dividing as well.


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## ocotillo

Faithful Wife said:


> ...That you need to "trick" women, because they don't want you to "catch" them, and/or that none of them are self-aware.


What I was getting at is that the idea above might sound good to some men while actually being one of those things that just work in real life at all. 

Or to express it in reverse order, Although it doesn't work, some men believe it anyway.

"Believable fiction." It sells.


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## Faithful Wife

SoWhat said:


> Dark Triad traits as more attractive:
> 
> http://www.pipubs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/The-Dark-Triad-Personality-1.pdf
> 
> We'd have to have data that showed women are more likely to encourage NON dark triad behavior and that men are more likely to give advice suggesting that Dark Triad behavior is more likely to lead to desired results.
> 
> I'm not sure that we have that.


They asked 128 hetero college aged women questions designed to reinforce a certain answer they were looking for.

If you are trying to say this has universal appeal to women, I'd like to see something better than this one study.

However, I will also say that MANY women are totally into those dark traits and say so out loud. This never ending idea that women "don't know" is rooted in the same evo-psyche bull crap that came up with the original studies on this.

The problem with all these studies, which is being shown now in new studies, is that if women are not shamed and shut down for their sexual preferences, desires and behaviors, then they are open and aware about their sexuality and can articulate it just fine.

So for generations you've had women who, if they dared say "oh heck yeah I'd like to boff that guy even though he might be a jerk he looks like an excellent ride" they would be tossed onto the bottom barrel of society.

Now that women are free to say exactly that, guess what the younger generation of women are saying and doing?

Point being: the old studies were done using women who knew they were not FREE to actually be honest about their sexuality, not even on "anonymous" research surveys. 

The data is changing as the world changes and women shed off the sl*t stigma.


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## Faithful Wife

ocotillo said:


> What I was getting at is that the idea above might sound good to some men while actually being one of those things that just work in real life at all.
> 
> Or to express it in reverse order, Although it doesn't work, some men believe it anyway.
> 
> "Believable fiction." It sells.


Is it something like a fantasy of "getting the unattainable girl"? (And thus not realizing that if you are actually chasing an unattainable girl, it means you yourself are not emotionally available).


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## Created2Write

WorkingOnMe said:


> Well good for you. So because you're married to a man who is self aware enough that he actually knows what works with him, everyone else should leave their marriages? Is the air a little thin up there on that high horse of yours?
> 
> For me personally, I'm much more in the opposite situation now. I'm not feeling it (as you know) and my wife is asking what she needs to do to make me get back to feeling it, and frankly I don't know. And if I told her what to do there's a good chance it wouldn't work.


With all due respect, I don't think all situations are equal. There's been a lot of hurt and disappointment in your marriage, so I don't think it's an issue of you not being self-aware, but rather, you genuinely not knowing what is needed to mend the fences in your marriage. Rebuilding trust is not the same as attracting someone. 



> By the way, if you tell someone what they have to do to make you feel loved and they do it, in many cases it doesn't have the effect because it doesn't seem like it came from the heart. Your husband telling you what he needs and you doing it is not nearly as satisfying as you just doing those same things because you love and understand him. You're asking a deer for hunting tips. You're getting good tips that work, but the fact is, he knows the tips you've been given.


I don't agree with this at all. Mind-reading is an unrealistic expectation, and it's unfair to expect a spouse to somehow sense or know what one's emotional needs are. Some things are more obvious than others(time, sex, affection), but even how those basic things are individually felt or expressed can be ambiguous without clarification.


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## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> Lol!
> 
> Um...Marriage Builders, emotional needs questionaires. Very simple to use as just one of many communication tools. Plus tweaks and changes throughout our lives as we grow and our needs change.
> 
> I don't understand why there is an assumption of lack of communication possible between spouses. That is just silly.
> 
> My husband and I both have a lot of complicated needs, and there's no reason not to discuss them and even let each other know when we aren't meeting them enough or whatever.
> 
> "Naturally" doing a lot more without having to be told? Well yeah but only because we've been together so long now and the needs he told me about in the beginning are being fulfilled regularly at this point. None of it was "natural" to me when we met.


:iagree:

My husband and I have evaluated our emotional needs each year on our anniversary to prepare ourselves for the next year of marriage, and each time his emotional needs have changed slightly. There's no way I'd know that if we didn't discuss our needs.


----------



## ocotillo

Faithful Wife said:


> Is it something like a fantasy of "getting the unattainable girl"? (And thus not realizing that if you are actually chasing an unattainable girl, it means you yourself are not emotionally available).


I'm sure that's part of it. 

Maybe some of it also comes from the perception that it is the man who must take the initiative and "Sell" himself in a manner not so very different than a job interview. I don't think that's true so much anymore, but in my generation, there was an element of truth to it. 

Sometimes our initial impression about a person actually is totally wrong and we realize after a few weeks or months or years that we've totally misjudged them. Maybe that's part of it too. 

Maybe it's just one of the interesting differences between men and women? We each tend to misunderstand each other albeit in different ways. Men have a tendency to throw up their hands and say that nothing a woman does makes any sense rather that try to actually understand.


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> Nope, I haven't misinterpreted it, Deejo.
> 
> There are similar stupid analogies that women use about how to "catch" a man, and they are all ridiculous as well.


Hunters are going to hunt...


----------



## Mr. Nail

I see that I missed it again. 
You are right the analogy stinks. Men have nothing to gain by tricking a person into being interested in them. Women's poor advise about courtship usually stems from trying to correct the faults they perceive in men. Women do know what catches their eye. They won't always tell you what it is but not because they want to escape you. More likely they know that if you fake it it won't work.
Now to bring this into the long term marriage, What is the reason my wife is hiding the information from me?
MN


----------



## treyvion

ocotillo said:


> I'm sure that's part of it.
> 
> Maybe some of it also comes from the perception that it is the man who must take the initiative and "Sell" himself in a manner not so very different than a job interview. I don't think that's true so much anymore, but in my generation, there was an element of truth to it.
> 
> Sometimes our initial impression about a person actually is totally wrong and we realize after a few weeks or months or years that we've totally misjudged them. Maybe that's part of it too.
> 
> Maybe it's just one of the interesting differences between men and women? We each tend to misunderstand each other albeit in different ways. Men have a tendency to throw up their hands and say that nothing a woman does makes any sense rather that try to actually understand.


She's got a job to fill too. I think pedastalizing, "hot girls", etc are all ways to blow the entire thing out of proportion.

However it is best to understand the creature you are dealing with.


----------



## norajane

Mr. Nail said:


> Faithful Wife,
> I'm usually pretty cautious when you bring up a topic. So I read a lot of this thread.
> Yes the analogy suffers. But we do chase and catch. We put out bait.
> I still find the advice at the heart of the analogy to be helpful. Unlike you I do find that the advice I get from women is a good indicator of what they want intellectually, and a poor indicator of what will light their fire, catch their eye, give them butterflies.
> *I honestly believe that my wife wants me to help around the house more. I do not believe that it will increase her desire for me even a tiny bit. It will make her more relaxed. Relaxed does not equal amrous. *
> I really am jealous of the communication level you and your husband have achieved. Over the past 15 years. Communication in my marriage has declined steadily. Last year the answer to any question about desires was "I don't know" and I believe it. Last week the request to do a survey together was met with a solid stone wall "No".
> That led me to start experimenting wildly. I may have finally hit on what it is the deer is looking for. Only time will tell, she won't.
> MN


It will make her more relaxed AND she will LIKE you better because you are helping instead of not helping while she works. If she LIKES you better, then she is more likely to be open to getting turned on. If she doesn't LIKE you, and resents the hell out of you for not helping, she will not be open to anything, including doing some survey when you don't actually listen to what she is telling you directly.

Doing your fair share around the house builds goodwill. Without goodwill, you have two people people who are either pissed off, resentful or have already deadened themselves emotionally = no sex.


----------



## Mr. Nail

norajane said:


> If she LIKES you better, then she is more likely to be open to getting turned on.


Trust me I've been down that road. I did the cooking and cleaning last night. She's not mad, she likes me, heck she's affectionate to me. Liking me in not what is keeping her from being open to getting turned on.
Faithful Wife had it right. She is conditioned to resist interest in sex because sex is not what dignified people her age do. Removing the expectation of sex has allowed her to express affection again. 
FA


----------



## sinnister

Almostrecovered said:


> I also admit that my taxidermy skills are poor as I keep having to stuff her


Post of the millennium!


----------



## norajane

Mr. Nail said:


> Trust me I've been down that road. I did the cooking and cleaning last night. She's not mad, she likes me, heck she's affectionate to me. Liking me in not what is keeping her from being open to getting turned on.
> *Faithful Wife had it right. She is conditioned to resist interest in sex because sex is not what dignified people her age do. *Removing the expectation of sex has allowed her to express affection again.
> FA


Has your wife confirmed that's what she thinks?

I care less about being dignified as I age; I care less about a lot of things, including what people think of me or what I do. To me, it seems odd to develop those kinds of thoughts about dignity, to the point where I would be able to unconsciously condition myself to resist sex. 

What's the simpler explanation? She's lost her usual sex drive as she's aged, so it's not so much fun and it's not really much of a drive anymore, like hunger. Lots of people sleep less and eat less as they get older, too. Hormones happen.


----------



## Mr. Nail

I think age and declining drive are a part of it. Family history points to the conditioning. As to her admitting she thinks this way, only once. I think she has blocked that memory, but it is burned into my brain. Like many things she can't explain why she feels the way she does. There are other issues as well. A decline in activity I understand. The really troubling bit is the refusal to discuss. 
MN


----------



## Faithful Wife

Mr. Nail...did you know there are plenty of older (and even younger) men who lose interest in sex for many reasons, and refuse to talk to their wives about it?

That in itself isn't a gender specific issue.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Mr. Nail said:


> I think age and declining drive are a part of it. Family history points to the conditioning. As to her admitting she thinks this way, only once. I think she has blocked that memory, but it is burned into my brain. Like many things she can't explain why she feels the way she does. There are other issues as well. A decline in activity I understand. The really troubling bit is the refusal to discuss.
> MN


What is this memory that is burned into your brain? If a woman has any kind of a sex drive, she will become antsy and need to be filled .. no matter what her beliefs or hang ups are.. when I was younger, I had all kinds of religious conditioning, went to youth group & all that...it never stopped me from needing an orgasm..(even though I would have turned as red as a lobster to admit I masturbated).. 

It did keep me from talking more openly about sex and then I associated certain acts with porn ...and didn't feel these were part of a marital love making....had I read more books on sex that focused on the Joys in marital sex, this could have easily been overcome though.. which was a shame.. 

But I had to have my (at least) weekly orgasm or I'd explode... reading or seeing anything remotely erotic -but also romantic between 2 people who loved each other (not raw Porn sex)... would get me very very horny ..and I'd have to go find my husband...he never minded watching romantic movies with me as this always = sex. 

I have a GF who is 48 who told me she has never experienced an orgasm....saying she has no idea what that feels like ... so she has never craved or cared about sex.. she could take it or leave it.

I think if you find a woman who is sexually repressed *and* Low Drive, it would be a mountain climb to get her to open up.. it's not in her world view, she may even view it as "just a horny man's activity" .. and she doesn't have the hormones stirring within her body to "open up" that window to the erotic..

But those are just my thoughts ....


----------



## Jellybeans

_Don't Ask a Deer How To Hunt It (or whatever it is)

There's a really silly saying something like the title of this thread, implying that in order to "get" a woman, you don't ask her or other women how to "get" her...because since we are like deer (ie: prey) we don't WANT men to catch us, therefore women would tell you lies if you asked them how to catch us._

I can honestly say I have never heard of this phrase/saying.

But it reminds of the way Cosmo and some magazines write up articles on "How to Get and Keep a Man." Vomit.


----------



## Deejo

Jellybeans said:


> _Don't Ask a Deer How To Hunt It (or whatever it is)
> 
> There's a really silly saying something like the title of this thread, implying that in order to "get" a woman, you don't ask her or other women how to "get" her...because since we are like deer (ie: prey) we don't WANT men to catch us, therefore women would tell you lies if you asked them how to catch us._
> 
> I can honestly say I have never heard of this phrase/saying.
> 
> But it reminds of the way Cosmo and some magazines write up articles on "How to Get and Keep a Man." Vomit.


So ... who do you tend to _prefer_ or seek out to get dating advice from? Male friends or women friends? Who has given you effective advice?

This is bound to be a rather lop-sided topic because until or unless, a woman is responsible for attracting, approaching and securing a date, the concept of 'how do I?' remains within the domain of dudes.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Is it weird to have never asked for dating advice,ever?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Deejo said:


> So ... who do you tend to _prefer_ or seek out to get dating advice from? Male friends or women friends? Who has given you effective advice?
> 
> This is bound to be a rather lop-sided topic because until or unless, a woman is responsible for attracting, approaching and securing a date, the concept of 'how do I?' remains within the domain of dudes.


What are you saying, Deejo, that most women ask men for dating advice when they are single? :scratchhead:

Both men and women ask both men and women for dating advice. Both men and women write dating advice books for both men and women.

No clue what you are getting at. There is no such thing as one gender knowing more than the other about these things. Certain individuals know more than others due to their experience, and they could be a man or a woman.


----------



## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> Certain individuals know more than others due to their experience, and they could be a man or a woman.


Which is pretty much what I'm getting at.

In the case of men ... they tend to gravitate towards men who are perceived as successful with women.

What I'm saying is that primarily, it is incumbent upon the man to initiate, pursue, and get the date. So by default ... it is likely that he is going to seek advice on doing that from men who successfully initiate, pursue, and get dates.


*Edited to add* question was for Jelly btw ... you're hitched.

But I'm not disagreeing that both genders have information and insight to provide.

Get Inside Her: Dirty Dating Tips & Secrets From A Woman: Marni Kinrys: 9781624090127: Amazon.com: Books


----------



## Deejo

ScarletBegonias said:


> Is it weird to have never asked for dating advice,ever?


No ... you're a natural.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Deejo said:


> No ... you're a natural.


haha or just a glutton for punishment and a master at mistakes


----------



## Deejo

Quite frankly, I find it amazing that we presume most people will just 'figure it out'.

Were that really the case, you wouldn't have young guys shelling out money for PUA workshops or books.

And further, it indeed begs the question of 'what exactly is dating advice'. 

Maybe I'm wrong FW, but via the analogy are you focusing on the getting sex only, part?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Nope, Deejo...I hear the deer analogy used in all types of scenarios...

..."getting" sex from a woman without "giving" commitment (and other variations of "getting" sex)

..."catching" the girl who is "hard to get" (ie: dating, pursuit, courtship)

..."making" your wife want you when it is clear she doesn't


----------



## Deejo

The back and forth between the sexes and who knows what best ... can be entertaining. 

But ... I'd much prefer a team, collaborative win/win approach.

I'm interested in what works, not who or which gender says it.


----------



## Ikaika

Deejo said:


> So ... who do you tend to _prefer_ or seek out to get dating advice from? Male friends or women friends? Who has given you effective advice?
> 
> 
> 
> This is bound to be a rather lop-sided topic because until or unless, a woman is responsible for attracting, *approaching and securing a date*, the concept of 'how do I?' remains within the domain of dudes.



Hmm, when I was single on at least two occasions I had a woman approach and ask me out .


----------



## Deejo

drerio said:


> Hmm, when I was single on at least two occasions I had a woman approach and ask me out .


Dude, you're Hawaiian ... totally different.

I'm where the Pilgrims landed. We NEED everything to be hard here ... so we can complain about how hard it is, including dating.

My youngest brother dated an Islander years ago. Absolutely breath-taking, wonderful woman. Law student, brilliant. And I believe she approached him too! Ended when he moved to Vegas with a number of friends. Six months later, he was the only one that hadn't come back home jobless and penniless.


----------



## ConanHub

Be something that the deer, or whatever, likes to eat and the deer will hunt you.


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## Faithful Wife

I like that, but the problem is that it still assumes an incorrect premise of the idea that the woman (deer) wants to ESCAPE.

Where in fact, women want sex and love as much as men do.


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> I like that, but the problem is that it still assumes an incorrect premise of the idea that the woman (deer) wants to ESCAPE.
> 
> Where in fact, women want sex and love as much as men do.


Some of ya'll get upset when you realize your male friend is interested in you sexually. Like he's a wild animal or something.


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> I like that, but the problem is that it still assumes an incorrect premise of the idea that the woman (deer) wants to ESCAPE.
> 
> Where in fact, women want sex and love as much as men do.


 Just going with the post title. My premise is be attractive and you will attract.

People do work way too hard at it like it is a hunt or a game.

I never cared much at all and had more women than I could handle. My Italian friend in high school thought about it all the time and was on the "hunt" 24/7.

He was always amazed at the girls that I seemed to end up with while he was working his tail off to score.

I don't think it was looks. He was taller than me and strong and good looking. I think it was mostly a difference in our attitudes.

He would sleep with anyone that was halfway cute and had a pulse, I was a little more picky and simply didn't care at all about "scoring".


----------



## Deejo

So ... be more of a salt lick than a hunter. I find that rather appealing.


----------



## Binji

Since men are usually the pursuers and hunters, getting advice from the hunters will serve you better than getting advice from deer. More reps, rejections, conquest etc.

I believe much older women give really good advice for men to get a girl, due to experience, but overall, I think a man's advice is a little more solid than a woman's advice, due to basic trial and error. There is some merit to the analogy, but there are some women who are experts at giving good advice.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I'm just going to say that generally speaking, anyone who is running away from you isn't that into you.

So if the person you are trying to catch, kill or get eating out of your hand is already running, that's really all you need to know. You can't "make" someone be into you.


----------



## treyvion

Binji said:


> Since men are usually the pursuers and hunters, getting advice from the hunters will serve you better than getting advice from deer. More reps, rejections, conquest etc.
> 
> I believe much older women give really good advice for men to get a girl, due to experience, but overall, I think a man's advice is a little more solid than a woman's advice, due to basic trial and error. There is some merit to the analogy, but there are some women who are experts at giving good advice.


True. Older women give advice similar to a man.

My mothers advice is good, and it's not this beating around the bush stuff either.


----------



## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm just going to say that generally speaking, anyone who is running away from you isn't that into you.
> 
> So if the person you are trying to catch, kill or get eating out of your hand is already running, that's really all you need to know. You can't "make" someone be into you.


I like this.


----------



## ReformedHubby

treyvion said:


> True. Older women give advice similar to a man.
> 
> My mothers advice is good, and it's not this beating around the bush stuff either.


You are absolutely right. Older woman tell it exactly like it is. My wife told me about the conversations she had with her grandmother when we started getting serious. Her grandmother's advice was mostly focused on sex. She emphasized that my then future wife should not accept a proposal from me if she didn't "like it with me". Her advice was always candid, frank, and direct.


----------



## Jellybeans

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm just going to say that generally speaking, anyone who is running away from you isn't that into you.


One of the absolute golden rules.


----------



## ocotillo

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm just going to say that generally speaking, anyone who is running away from you isn't that into you.
> 
> So if the person you are trying to catch, kill or get eating out of your hand is already running, that's really all you need to know. You can't "make" someone be into you.


Sage advice. It would save everyone a lot of time in the long run.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm just going to say that generally speaking, anyone who is running away from you isn't that into you.
> 
> So if the person you are trying to catch, kill or get eating out of your hand is already running, that's really all you need to know. You can't "make" someone be into you.


I'd have to agree with this. The tragic part is that sometimes when a guy chases a girl that just isn't that into him for really long time. She may decide one day that she should give him a chance even though the chemistry really isn't there for her. Fast forward a few years and like clockwork ILYBINILWY. Whose fault is it when this happens? I guess both people should have known better???


----------



## Faithful Wife

ReformedHubby said:


> I'd have to agree with this. *The tragic part is that sometimes when a guy chases a girl that just isn't that into him for really long time.* She may decide one day that she should give him a chance even though the chemistry really isn't there for her. Fast forward a few years and like clockwork ILYBINILWY. Whose fault is it when this happens? I guess both people should have known better???


Even sadder is when a husband or wife chases a spouse who just isn't that into them. Especially if an honest self-review shows that the spouse was never actually that into them, they were just into the newness or whatever. 

But at whatever point it becomes obvious to everyone that your spouse isn't that into you, you need to just face the fact and either accept it or do what you have to do to move on. Some people can accept it, and I get that. But if it tortures you and makes you hate your life...really, that means you do not accept it.


----------



## Jellybeans

I think it's crazy that some people marry someone they are just "not that into." It is beyond my comprehension. And it is so unfair to both parties.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I think people who do so, are usually just not that sexual...so they don't understand why it would matter so much.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

There's an interesting thread in SIM right now by a wife who wants her husband to finish via bj. In that case he's the deer and she's the hunter. I've offered some advice and so have some women. Women who actually were successful at solving that particular problem. I have no issue admitting that those pretty little hunters are better suited to answer the question than I am. Asking me would be like asking a deer for hunting tips.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Whatever works, WOM. I'm just confused at your notion that asking a person what they want wouldn't yield a self-aware truthful answer. But clearly you are speaking for yourself. So your wife should ask another woman about how to please you rather than asking you directly, I assume? I have no idea why you feel that way but if it works for you. To me it sounds like she is asking you and you just refuse to answer and now she is supposed to read your mind or something (or apparently ask another woman).

There is a lot of documentation that says that those with the best sex lives are those who actually communicate openly and honestly and with self-awareness about sex.

But again, if not asking your spouse what they want works for you, then it does.


----------



## treyvion

WorkingOnMe said:


> There's an interesting thread in SIM right now by a wife who wants her husband to finish via bj. In that case he's the deer and she's the hunter. I've offered some advice and so have some women. Women who actually were successful at solving that particular problem. I have no issue admitting that those pretty little hunters are better suited to answer the question than I am. Asking me would be like asking a deer for hunting tips.


She's not going to be able to tell you how to catch them. And yes many of the women are hunters.

Thing about it is an older woman will tell you not to put up with being denied sex and intimacy. They say it's a really bad sign, and if you allow it you pretty much gave all your cards.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Faithful Wife said:


> Whatever works, WOM. I'm just confused at your notion that asking a person what they want wouldn't yield a self-aware truthful answer. But clearly you are speaking for yourself. So your wife should ask another woman about how to please you rather than asking you directly, I assume? I have no idea why you feel that way but if it works for you. To me it sounds like she is asking you and you just refuse to answer and now she is supposed to read your mind or something (or apparently ask another woman).
> 
> There is a lot of documentation that says that those with the best sex lives are those who actually communicate openly and honestly and with self-awareness about sex.
> 
> But again, if not asking your spouse what they want works for you, then it does.


It sounds to me like you're completely missing my point on purpose. Do you often find that it's more important that you be "right" than to get the correct answer? 

Let's say I'm a tennis player and I'm going to play you in a match. I want to beat you, but I don't know how. I can ask YOU how I can beat you (let's just assume here that you are all for it, that you want me to beat you). Or I can ask a pro tennis player. Who is most likely to give me the best advice on how to do it?


----------



## treyvion

WorkingOnMe said:


> It sounds to me like you're completely missing my point on purpose. Do you often find that it's more important that you be "right" than to get the correct answer?
> 
> Let's say I'm a tennis player and I'm going to play you in a match. I want to beat you, but I don't know how. I can ask YOU how I can beat you (let's just assume here that you are all for it, that you want me to beat you). Or I can ask a pro tennis player. Who is most likely to give me the best advice on how to do it?


We are going to ask someone who has done it, or someone of sufficient skill to understand this endeavour from the outside in.


----------



## Faithful Wife

WorkingOnMe said:


> It sounds to me like you're completely missing my point on purpose. Do you often find that it's more important that you be "right" than to get the correct answer?
> 
> Let's say I'm a tennis player and I'm going to play you in a match. I want to beat you, but I don't know how. I can ask YOU how I can beat you (let's just assume here that you are all for it, that you want me to beat you). Or I can ask a pro tennis player. Who is most likely to give me the best advice on how to do it?


But sex with a committed partner is nothing like a competitive tennis match. So again....:scratchhead:

As far as being right, I know I'm right in my own marriage, never said I was right about yours (clearly I am not).


----------



## FrenchFry

WorkingOnMe said:


> ?
> 
> Let's say I'm a tennis player and I'm going to play you in a match. I want to beat you, but I don't know how. I can ask YOU how I can beat you (let's just assume here that you are all for it, that you want me to beat you). Or I can ask a pro tennis player. Who is most likely to give me the best advice on how to do it?


Why this feels "wrong" to me--I'm not in an adversarial relationship with my husband. I'm hopefully in a collaborative relationship with him. We are playing doubles on the same team.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Faithful Wife said:


> Whatever works, WOM. I'm just confused at your notion that asking a person what they want wouldn't yield a self-aware truthful answer. But clearly you are speaking for yourself. So your wife should ask another woman about how to please you rather than asking you directly, I assume? I have no idea why you feel that way but if it works for you. To me it sounds like she is asking you and you just refuse to answer and now she is supposed to read your mind or something (or apparently ask another woman).
> 
> *There is a lot of documentation that says that those with the best sex lives are those who actually communicate openly and honestly and with self-awareness about sex.*
> 
> But again, if not asking your spouse what they want works for you, then it does.


If we could all BE so self aware, wanting and honest.. how wonderful it would be..

I think the problem enters in -when one spouse just REALLY wants left alone and they are not going to come out and say this.. (as it will send the other over the edge/ closing down or a rage even)...so they play along , try to avoid, try to stall.. doing whatever it takes just to keep them calm, a little string, but not too much...so they'll stay off their back..

(and no I am not speaking from experience in saying this, I have NEVER felt this way , I was always a straight shooter)... but for those passive aggressive, I can see it ...

So they downplay what they're REALLY THINKING.. it's either this, or they are resentful & internally refuse to step it up for love & please....or repressed in some way and just not in touch with themselves to be "aware" enough ...


----------



## Faithful Wife

Yes I can see why you can't ask someone who is withholding information on purpose, either due to "not into you" or due to resentment, to tell you anything, as obviously, they are deliberately not telling you.

But I still don't see how asking someone ELSE would get you any kind of accurate information about what the withholding spouse actually wants and needs either.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes I can see why you can't ask someone who is withholding information on purpose, either due to "not into you" or due to resentment, to tell you anything, as obviously, they are deliberately not telling you.
> 
> But I still don't see how asking someone ELSE would get you any kind of accurate information about what the withholding spouse actually wants and needs either.


Well I think if we delve deep enough into -Here I go again, temperament differences, or even belief systems or watching subtle cues...what a person gets excited about.. what is their passions.....

Taking all of this..(some head knowledge to describe another - I know I could describe my H very well).. if you run into a WISE person who realizes we can't box everyone and have the same formula.. but asks many questions to formulate a bigger picture... they just may be able to offer some insight... to what the other may be facing... it's worth a conversation to look under every rock , isn't it??

I would think the vast majority who hang on forums reads a book now & then ..to expand their knowledge of what could help them achieve what they are after.. ..

Speaking of our own blunders...my H would have been much better off opening up and just TALKING TO ME over reading some article (likely written by a woman, an "Acts of Service" woman no doubt) telling him he needed to do more housework (which I had a handle on anyway) to get more Desire/ sex back in the day...

I was never tired to begin with. I was CRANKY.. but honestly I think I just needed him to be more OVERT and come after me...showing his lust... instead of being so "respectful" awaiting /feeling if I was "in the mood" at the start.. too much of a Nice Guy going on... 

Would I have really known to say THAT back then.. probably not !!! (I had other things on my brain ...kids...projects...never resentful though)... I needed him to JUST DO IT.. show me what he wanted..as I believe my desire was more "Responsive" BACK THEN.. 

But he had himself convinced it was better to not rock the boat cause he still had a good thing ~ I always came on to him... he just wanted more of that. So his not communicating to me -was a Blunder.. though had he communicated with other men who were wired differently over him.... I do feel it could have helped him SEE another angle to try..

Makes sense?


----------



## Faithful Wife

SA, I'm not trying to make sense out of anything. I'm simply saying that if you can't get direct answers out of your spouse about THEIR sexual needs and desires, then yes there is a problem...yet asking someone else who doesn't know your spouse personally, isn't likely to help you find any answers about your specific spouse.

You might get lucky, and find the just right and perfect answer in a book or in an article...but you will more likely just get generic advice from those which probably don't have much to do with your unique spouse who has their own reasons for withholding, lying or denying.

As you said...your H should have talked to YOU, even though you weren't totally open and aware, you were enough so that you could have told him what you need and want.

If a spouse will not tell you what their needs are for any reason, there is a pretty big problem in the marriage...and asking someone else isn't likely to help you. It may help you if you get lucky and hit just the right article or book, but that wouldn't be any more likely than getting lucky using mind-reading.


----------



## always_alone

FrenchFry said:


> Why this feels "wrong" to me--I'm not in an adversarial relationship with my husband. I'm hopefully in a collaborative relationship with him. We are playing doubles on the same team.


:iagree:
This is the problem with all of those analogies: Since when is a relationship about beating another person,winning vs losing, or predator vs prey, capturer vs captive?

Not any relationship I'd ever want to be a part of.


----------



## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes I can see why you can't ask someone who is withholding information on purpose, either due to "not into you" or due to resentment, to tell you anything, as obviously, they are deliberately not telling you.
> 
> But I still don't see how asking someone ELSE would get you any kind of accurate information about what the withholding spouse actually wants and needs either.


So then we should just close up shop on the board?

I very much agreed with your last point. I've been saying the exact same thing for several years; "Do not choose someone that does not choose you."

But with your above statement I think you're being more than a little obtuse.

For all of the rhetoric, bickering and flaming that goes on ... people get, and give extraordinarily accurate, correct, heartfelt and meaningful information that distinctly pertains to their lives and their relationships, and can be in turn applied by others.

I can't imagine that you actually think the way your last couple of posts read.


----------



## always_alone

Ummmmmm, but surely you've noticed that more than half the good advice here goes something like this: "We don't know what your spouse is thinking because we're not mind readers. It could be this, that, or the other thing. Or maybe something else altogether. If you really want to know, what you need to do is talk to *them* about it."

Much of the rest is flaming and bickering.


----------



## Deejo

I don't think that nearly 70,000 people have chosen to register for the flaming and bickering, or the social forum for that matter.

But I could be wrong. I've been wrong once before.


----------



## jld

You can learn from other people, and you can learn from your spouse. It is best to go right to your spouse, but sometimes he/she may not even be sure what he/she thinks/feels. 

My husband had never told me he liked being needed by me. A poster here on TAM told me that. When I showed the post to Dug, he said, "Yep. That's it. She's right." But it would not have occurred to him to tell me, nor to me to ask.

TAM is free counseling and free info. There is much to make use of here.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Faithful Wife said:


> SA, I'm not trying to make sense out of anything. I'm simply saying that if you can't get direct answers out of your spouse about THEIR sexual needs and desires, then yes there is a problem...yet asking someone else who doesn't know your spouse personally, isn't likely to help you find any answers about your specific spouse.
> 
> You might get lucky, and find the just right and perfect answer in a book or in an article...but you will more likely just get generic advice from those which probably don't have much to do with your unique spouse who has their own reasons for withholding, lying or denying.
> 
> As you said...your H should have talked to YOU, even though you weren't totally open and aware, you were enough so that you could have told him what you need and want.


Well obviously I am ALL FOR just going to the source and laying it ALL out there, I'd have to be brain dead to not agree with that.... I'd say this feeling of comfort/ and acceptance to DO just that is even a NEED for me personally in a relationship... the day this starts to crumble ..would be devastating.. we'd have to get back to that place.. where we feel it's free flowing.. any subject.. as they ALL matter... to understand and BE understood....working it out.



> *If a spouse will not tell you what their needs are for any reason, there is a pretty big problem in the marriage..*.and asking someone else isn't likely to help you. It may help you if you get lucky and hit just the right article or book, but that wouldn't be any more likely than getting lucky using mind-reading.


well there is an awful lot of THAT going around....reading countless threads here..unfortunate to say..

Also I think it would be very hard for you or me to relate to someone with a more passive personality in regards to their own needs...whether they, especially men , may see it as coming off as Whiny, "needy" ...nit picking... pushy....if being more sensitive , struggling with a fear of rejection..or told they are a sex maniac over & over again ... and maybe they have* cause* to feel that way.. maybe they've been deeply hurt / rejected in the past -and have emotionally shut down -getting back to my original post on this.. 

Not trying to be argumentative... but yeah. Communication Communication Communication is where it's at... to get to the root of all of this.. but can they handle the honesty ...will they clash, cry -feeling they aren't good enough, fight..blame shift... 

When one feels "less loved"...or has the most to loose.. often it is that spouse who fails to communicate as thoroughly as they want even... as to appease or Please the other.. putting themselves down to keep the peace..or hold the marriage..

BUt yeah.. Go to the source 1st ....absolutely.. sit them down.. have a heart to heart... and keep going till they BITE YOU and put you in the dog house, taking away your bone...

After this...they end up somewhere like here...looking for new ideas to save it all....and in this they find solace they are not the only ones..others have traveled this road.. some have come out the other side even....and they listen... what they learn may help or it may not.. but it could just be what they needed.. a new course ...


----------



## Faithful Wife

Deejo said:


> So then we should just close up shop on the board?
> 
> I very much agreed with your last point. I've been saying the exact same thing for several years; "Do not choose someone that does not choose you."
> 
> But with your above statement I think you're being more than a little obtuse.
> 
> For all of the rhetoric, bickering and flaming that goes on ... people get, and give extraordinarily accurate, correct, heartfelt and meaningful information that distinctly pertains to their lives and their relationships, and can be in turn applied by others.
> 
> I can't imagine that you actually think the way your last couple of posts read.


You are trying to twist my post into me saying that we should "just close up shop on the board", and yet you are calling me obtuse?

Really? Thanks Deejo.


----------



## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> You are trying to twist my post into me saying that we should "just close up shop on the board", and yet you are calling me obtuse?
> 
> Really? Thanks Deejo.


You're very passive aggressive sometimes.

Asked you to clarify your post. Qualified by saying I didn't think it could be what you meant.


----------



## Faithful Wife

But you also first insulted me by calling me more than a little obtuse. Which I don't think was nice or helpful if you honestly wanted to me to clarify my post. It felt more like you wanted to scold me or put me in my place. Which apparently is true, seeing that I'm also passive aggressive?


----------



## Deejo

I apologize. You and I can be sarcastic sometimes and it flows. I over-reached.


----------



## jld

Would you like to go ahead and clarify, FW? Feel free to ignore this if you don't think clarification is necessary. 

I think your thoughts are interesting. I always learn something from reading your posts, even if we don't always agree.


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## Faithful Wife

As far as message boards go, I think they are an excellent way to find out what other people in your situation are doing and get free advice. 

As far as my real underlying message, it is still the same as the original post. If you have the mindset that women don't want to be caught, don't want sex as much as men do, and don't really want to be with YOU specifically, then there is a problem in your thinking and in your approach. And you might find that out by posting on a message board, for sure. You might have someone reflect to you that you are looking at things wrong, and you could turn your view around and see things differently.

But sadly you also might hear that there is a secret method to getting into someone's pants that works on EVERY woman because it is deep within our limbic brains and we literally have no way to escape our inner lizards when you punch the right sequence. OR you might sadly hear that because you are a complete beta wuss, you must change everything about yourself because DUH women don't want beta wussies to catch them.

Which is going to just further the idea for you that women don't want you unless you completely change yourself. (But please let's not have the "self improvement is good" talk again...yes EVERYONE can use self improvement, that's not what I'm talking about in this post at all).

But...saying this doesn't mean I want to shut down those messages or those message boards or those who say those things. I'm just a dissenting voice to THAT message, the deer analogy message.

Because I hope people learn more loving and understanding ways of getting what they want. The "you don't ask deer for hunting tips" is a gender dividing message, as usually the deer is a woman and the man speaking it supposes that he knows better than apparently all women, what women want. 

It would be the same as me touting that "men are totally clueless and unaware about their own wants and needs, due to their genetic makeup, and in my superior position (because females are always superior) I will tell you what they want." (note: this was an example, I do NOT feel this way).

I would balk at any woman saying that, too.

I think we should see each other as much more capable of self-expression than the deer analogy would allow for, and for those who really are repressed or incapable of self-expression or are not self-aware...if you are married to someone like this, your approach of "not asking them because they don't know themselves" isn't likely to make you both feel intimate with each other. Even if it seems to work for some people, the arrogant attitude toward the un-self-aware spouse is going to backfire.

Again, this is just my opinion and it doesn't mean those deer opinion people are wrong or shouldn't speak. I just also have the right to speak against it, because it is unnecessarily devisive.


----------



## Deejo

Never going want undermine your right to contest. It's a big part of why I like you.

I do very much like the idea of conveying the team model. 

And there can most certainly come that point of realizing that you are a team of one.

I think, hope, that most of us want things to be better for the folks that come here. Getting there and talking about can at times be a messy, and even combative journey and exchange. I'm ok with that too, as long as we don't lose our eyes on the prize.

I very much like your approach and attitude towards sexuality. I think you think about sex more than plenty of guys I know. To be clear, I mean that as a compliment, not a knock, Faithful.

I personally also know how morally devalued one can feel when you choose to open, vulnerable and honest ... and truly sincere in wanting to address the issues in a relationship, and you are basically met with a shrug and a "whatevs ..." from your partner. It can feel like having your heart carpet bombed. And you just don't want to reach out and talk again.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Deejo said:


> I very much like your approach and attitude towards sexuality. I think you think about sex more than plenty of guys I know. To be clear, I mean that as a compliment, not a knock, Faithful.
> 
> I personally also know how morally devalued one can feel when you choose to open, vulnerable and honest ... and truly sincere in wanting to address the issues in a relationship, and you are basically met with a shrug and a "whatevs ..." from your partner. It can feel like having your heart carpet bombed. And you just don't want to reach out and talk again.


Compliment accepted.

Those who feel morally devalued...of course they do, if they are in a relationship with someone who says "whatevs" in response to expressing their needs and desires. And if they stop talking to their partner about their needs because of it, who could blame them? That's a sucky position to be in and I do feel bad for those who are in it. They will find their resolution one way or another, most likely. The deer analogy is presented as if it is a universal truth and applies to every person, and men who are in the position of not asking their wives any more will find comfort in that analogy, I get it. But since it is NOT a universal truth and it is divisive, I personally think it is harmful.

The man or woman whose partner says "whatevs" to their needs and desires definitely does need help, I agree. Many of them find help, too...and many of them end up leaving their partner...others repair things...there are thousands of routes OUT of hell.


----------



## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> Many of them find help, too...and many of them end up leaving their partner...others repair things...there are thousands of routes OUT of hell.


Some are more expensive than others.


----------



## always_alone

Deejo said:


> I don't think that nearly 70,000 people have chosen to register for the flaming and bickering, or the social forum for that matter.


Let me rephrase, since apparently I didn't make my point to clearly enough:

People here learn from each other's experiences and perspectives, no doubt. But the wisest of posters will frequently point out that the only real way to know what is going on in the mind of an individual partner or spouse is to ask them.

Because we random posters really don't know the whole story or the perspective of someone who hasn't even come to the board and is being presented through the filter of hurt of the one speaking here.

Whereas cliches like the one FW is talking about are part and parcel of a generalization of the rather dismissive notion that women can ever know what they want, and if they did, they wouldn't tell you.

To which I say, bollocks.


----------



## always_alone

WorkingOnMe said:


> I have no issue admitting that those pretty little hunters are better suited to answer the question than I am. Asking me would be like asking a deer for hunting tips.


And yet, a substantial number of those "pretty little hunters" were men who had perfectly reasonable insight into the problem at hand.

Because they know what their wives do, and how it feels for them, and what matters to them, and how they would react.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

Hmm.. maybe I missed it, but I read the whole 8 pages so far and never saw my interpretation of the deer analogy.

In my line of thinking, it's not about some trophy, or doing anything against someone's wishes. In part, it is more about getting ourselves out of our own way.

Consider a "prime" young female candidate (we'll call her Jane), who has caught the eye of an equally "prime" young male candidate (we'll call him Jon). In our age of constant media bombardment of predators, of feminists and the like declaring men just out for sex, of all the thing to fear out there, there is more than just a little incentive for "barriers" to be put up by women (heck... men as well). While some women might positively respond to Jon walking up and expressing his interest in Jane forthright, he has a good chance of being instantly rejected. Not unlike if a hunter were to walk up to a deer, and politely ask him to succumb in order that the hunter feed his family.

Now, if Jon were to strategize a way to get closer to Jane, to not pose himself as a threat in some way - blend into the background as a friend of a friend, or acquaintance through work, club activity, church group, etc. - then some of these barriers might slowly be lowered. Not unlike the hunter blending into the scenery, masking his smell/intent, not necessarily to "fool" the deer, but to get close enough for a long enough time to actually be effective.

Some women might even suggest that taking the time to establish a connection, get to know each other, see some of the good traits and perhaps identify some of the bad traits of a proposed suitor would be a good thing. Perhaps even an endearing trait, that he not be so rushed to bed her or establish the relationship, that his patience might be indicative of a higher order of desire for real connection. 

Still others might turn it into some sickening display of malice and misogyny. I vote for the former, personally.

Clear it up at all? 

To clarify - I don't hunt, but I understand the analogy and I don't think at all it means what you portray FW (although I'm certain there are a few men out there who mean it exactly that way - the exception and not the rule). In short, simple summation, the analogy is meant to suggest a slow approach, instead of guns blazing. Another similarity would be that if the hunter is taking the proper time doing his hunting, he can more appropriately choose the target, rejecting potentials that after closer inspection do not meet the mark.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ET1....Sadly, the real source of this analogy isn't as "nice" as the way you have said it above. Yes, we can all decide how we understand or apply the analogy. But the analogy originally came from the guys who swallowed evo-psyche whole and became a cult-like camp who are now trying to force this idea out into the world and mainstream. It is literally about how "confused" women are about their own motives, and the ones spouting the message try then to teach men these secret things that supposedly will bypass a woman's logical brain (the part where she thinks she knows what she wants but really doesn't) and get into her lizard brain (because that's the part that really knows what she wants). They point to all kinds of studies about women who are ovulating, and other ridiculous crap. 

Then they point to the women who say "I want a man who listens" and after a few years this woman no longer wants to have sex with the man who listens. That's how they get "she will say she wants one thing but she doesn't want to f*ck that person, because she doesn't even know herself who she wants to f*ck". They don't really look any deeper than this, to understand that individual men and women may have individual issues that have nothing to do with the "listening" part.

And it even goes to deeper and more ridiculous levels than that. Like for instance, if you don't "top her off" with semen every three days, she will definitely cheat on you, because you see, she doesn't KNOW she needs to be topped off every three days...oh except subconsciously she's hoping you don't top her off so she can cheat on you with a more alpha man. But don't ask her about any of this, she doesn't know.

This is the crap that is behind the deer analogy.

Of course, for people who don't use the analogy that way themselves, it doesn't mean that...so I like your version better. But it still wouldn't apply to me as I am more like a tigress than a frightened deer.


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## ET1SSJonota

As mentioned, there are exceptions, and generally bad people can be found in any segment. That said, that saying goes a little farther back than the evo-psych people - I heard it many years ago from my Grandpa. Just because a fringe group co-opts it doesn't invalidate it. It's not like the analogy has any ability to disassociate with them.

It seems it comes down to how you want to look at it - which is true with most things. You can choose to look at it in a "capture" or negative light - but what does that gain you? If it's looked at how I suggest, there are actually insights to be gained, lessons that can be passed down. They say never wrestle with a pig in mud - you'll just get muddy and the pig enjoys it. 

Oh... and there are tiger/tigress hunters out there too ya' know ;-)


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## Faithful Wife

Yes, I know...a tiger caught me. Not a tiger hunter, but a tiger. 

But first I stalked him and then we wrestled violently.


----------



## Red Sonja

Can I just say that this "deer" has had enough of the Dark Triad behaviors from "hunters" to last her a lifetime ... she now runs every time she senses it coming her way.


----------



## treyvion

Red Sonja said:


> Can I just say that this "deer" has had enough of the Dark Triad behaviors from "hunters" to last her a lifetime ... she now runs every time she senses it coming her way.


You haven't met a dark triad like me yet.  As I walk into the room, your senses, your mind and your sex drive will all be stimulated and ramped up as you think back to earlier in life when your sexual senses first became awakened.

You won't care about the logistics, the morality or right or wrong as the blood in you flows through your body and your loins.

As I talk to you and move around you, you will feel I'm speaking an entirely different language underneath the english and my calm demeanor.


----------



## norajane

treyvion said:


> You haven't met a dark triad like me yet.  As I walk into the room, your senses, your mind and your sex drive will all be stimulated and ramped up as you think back to earlier in life when your sexual senses first became awakened.
> 
> You won't care about the logistics, the morality or right or wrong as the blood in you flows through your body and your loins.
> 
> As I talk to you and move around you, you will feel I'm speaking an entirely different language underneath the english and my calm demeanor.


You've been reading those romance novels again, haven't you?! :rofl:


----------



## treyvion

norajane said:


> You've been reading those romance novels again, haven't you?! :rofl:


I've lived it. The ex- who sent me to TAM knocked my sword out of my hand, but I was allowed to weild for 17 years. It was done intentionally as part of a rivalry. Still have not recovered.


----------



## Jetranger

ET1SSJonota said:


> While some women might positively respond to Jon walking up and expressing his interest in Jane forthright, he has a good chance of being instantly rejected. Not unlike if a hunter were to walk up to a deer, and politely ask him to succumb in order that the hunter feed his family.


Now I'm thinking about the deer walking up to the hunter, tapping him on the shoulder and positioning the rifle barrel between her eyes.

The hunter will undeniably be thrilled.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Faithful Wife said:


> And it even goes to deeper and more ridiculous levels than that. Like for instance, if you don't "top her off" with semen every three days, she will definitely cheat on you, because you see, she doesn't KNOW she needs to be topped off every three days...oh except subconsciously she's hoping you don't top her off so she can cheat on you with a more alpha man. But don't ask her about any of this, she doesn't know.


Help me out here. I've never heard of this. What exactly does it mean to top someone off? I suppose I could just google it. Just curious.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ReformedHubby said:


> Help me out here. I've never heard of this. What exactly does it mean to top someone off? I suppose I could just google it. Just curious.


It is some tripe that Athol Kay dreamed up. He says that all women are cheating wh*res and if you don't have intercourse with her (with no vasectomy, mind you, it has to be live sperm) and top her off with that live sperm every 3 days, then she will go and get laid by some other man. There's a whole section about this nonsense in MMSL.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Faithful Wife said:


> It is some tripe that Athol Kay dreamed up. He says that all women are cheating wh*res and if you don't have intercourse with her (with no vasectomy, mind you, it has to be live sperm) and top her off with that live sperm every 3 days, then she will go and get laid by some other man. There's a whole section about this nonsense in MMSL.


wait.what? LOL Someone actually wrote that? In a real book? That people spent money to read??

no.You're just f**king with me,aren't you? :rofl:


----------



## COGypsy

Faithful Wife said:


> It is some tripe that Athol Kay dreamed up. He says that all women are cheating wh*res and if you don't have intercourse with her (with no vasectomy, mind you, it has to be live sperm) and top her off with that live sperm every 3 days, then she will go and get laid by some other man. There's a whole section about this nonsense in MMSL.



Doesn't he also say it has to be anal for it to "really take"? Or was that some other esteemed member of the brain trust?


----------



## ReformedHubby

Faithful Wife said:


> It is some tripe that Athol Kay dreamed up. He says that all women are cheating wh*res and if you don't have intercourse with her (with no vasectomy, mind you, it has to be live sperm) and top her off with that live sperm every 3 days, then she will go and get laid by some other man. There's a whole section about this nonsense in MMSL.


Thanks, I googled and couldn't find. I had vasectomy a few years back


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## Faithful Wife

When I get home I will copy a bit from the book about this lovely theory he has....so you will see that no, I'm not pulling your leg Scarlet and yes, he actually said this.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ReformedHubby said:


> Thanks, I googled and couldn't find. I had vasectomy a few years back


Good lord, I hope the sad face was a joke, because the nonsense I'm talking about is definitely a JOKE in that it is totally STUPID. Sadly though, he did actually write this as if it is totally, completely true.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ok here's the section from MMSL I was talking about, Reformed...and I'd like to throw in here right now, that there is plenty of evidence that shows that sex and sexual contact is not "only" for making babies, as this crap asserts. Humans use sex with each other for many things including bonding and communication, and so do several other species...from here out is quoted from Married Man Sex Life, page and section noted (sorry it is so long, just skim it and you'll see all you need to see):

*(1.13) Sperm Warfare* 
Having discussed concealed ovulation and how women are designed to be able to deceive their man and poach another man’s genes on the sly, we come to the way the male body attempts to counter that female strategy. Men have ways of fighting back and trying to stop another man getting his partner pregnant. One defense against another man’s sperm is the way the penis is shaped. A penis being thrust into a vagina actually creates a mild suction and will slowly draw out any other semen present. Long and vigorous sex will create greater suction.

A larger penis probably creates greater suction than a smaller one. It seems counter-intuitive, but if a wife’s infidelity is discovered or suspected, a husband can become both extremely angry and wildly sexually aroused as well. It’s a natural biological reaction to seek to immediately enter her and thrust very aggressively, unconsciously seeking to displace the other man’s semen by pumping it out. This is what makes women find rough sex enjoyable, it’s a signal of the male being sexually powerful. Having just terrorized every man with less than a monstrous sized penis that he is inadequate as a lover, it’s best to consider that it’s in a sense like getting excited over the length of the barrel of a gun. Ooooh so big. 

Yet the penis is simply a delivery system for the more important thing – semen. A primary purpose of men is to be walking semen factories. Each day a healthy male will make millions of sperm. This is why teenage boys lean on everything and can hardly stand up straight. Making 100 million sperm before breakfast is work. Women coast on juggling a single – maybe two – eggs a month which just seems lazy by comparison. The goal for a man is to ejaculate as much as possible into a fertile female and make a baby. 

Sperm can survive for up to five days inside a female, so the plan is that as long as he can keep her topped off with his sperm swimming around inside her, he’ll eventually get lucky and get her pregnant. The other reason a male wants to keep a female topped off with sperm is that not all sperm are actually designed to make a run at the egg. Sperm come in three basic types: runners, blockers and killers. Only 1-2% of all the sperm are “runners” designed to make a break for the egg and fertilize it. The rest of the sperm split into two basic groups of “blockers” and “killers”. The blockers act like a defensive line in football, they form chains of themselves and attempt to block up the females reproductive tract and deny access to any other male’s competing sperm. The killers live up to their name too and patrol around looking to attack sperm play a game of football against other sperm, you have it completely right. 

On a biological level, the Male Body Agenda assumes that the female he is having sex with will be unfaithful. By constantly seeking to top off a female’s reproductive tract with sperm, he assures himself a standing army inside her ready to repel another male’s sperm if she cheats on him. A wife can avoid having a standing army of her husband’s sperm inside her by simply denying him sex. A couple can have fairly frequent sex, but if she avoids sex with him, or just gives him handjobs or blowjobs in the three or four days before she ovulates, the husband is rendered defenseless from a sperm warfare perspective if she meets a lover for sex. There’s no standing army of the husband’s sperm to fight off the lover’s sperm.

Importantly because the lover is not likely to have many attempts at sex with the wife, his ejaculation will be extremely large and flood her vagina. The husband is at a decided disadvantage. It’s important to wave the flag again that this sort of planned deceit on the wife’s part can happen completely unconsciously; the Rationalization Hamster can likely supply several excellent reasons as to why she avoided her husband’s semen in her vagina for a few days before she ovulated. Plus obviously the hook-up with the lover was just an appalling lapse of character. She’s not that kind of girl. In fact she’s just realized from that hook-up how very empty sex without love can be and she now knows that deep down she really loves her husband and wants to make it work with him. So perhaps some good came of the whole thing. The Rationalization Hamster is holding off on telling her she’s pregnant for a bit…missed periods sometimes just happen you know. (See how the Rationalization Hamster works?) 

Sperm warfare also explains why if a husband is denied regular sex with his wife, he typically becomes fixated on the lack of sex with her to the exclusion of every other issue in the relationship. After five days of no vaginal sex, all his sperm inside her are either dead or have dripped out of her. In a “get her pregnant” sense it’s like he’s never had sex with her. He wants her topped off; instead she’s completely empty of his sperm. She is therefore providing him with a very strong expression of disinterest in him. She may say that she loves him, but he will typically experience her actions as a deeply concerning rejection. As a variant on this, if a wife has sex with a lover, she will often return to her husband and immediately seek sex from him as well. The husband may be quite surprised by her initiation of sex and her highly sexual intensity. What is happening is her Body Agenda is seeking to actively play the sperm armies against each other in a survival of the fittest game to find the winning sperm. If the husband is unaware of the lover, he likely just experiences this as a wonderfully intense sex experience that likely extends over several sessions. For those involved in the Hotwife or Cuckolding lifestyles, this return of the wife after being with a lover for immediate sex with the husband is a point of purposeful enjoyment.


----------



## Lyris

Ahahahahahahahahahaha


----------



## ScarletBegonias

My morning started somewhat blah but I feel so much better now after the belly laughs I got from reading that  Thanks for sharing! LOL


----------



## always_alone

Mehinks Athol is the one with the rationalization hamster!

On one hand, men are supposed to alpha up so they can be one of those super hot 20% that actually get sex, instead of the beta boy who provides but doesn't not get laid, and yet here "the lover" is supposedly the one who has excess sperm because he doesn't have as much access to the wife.

Okay, I know, this doesn't deserve to be taken remotely seriously. SB and Lyris had the right response.

Yet still this book is touted constantly here as some great insightful relationship saver.


----------



## always_alone

An excerpt from MWSLP?

*(1.13) Mating Wars* 
A primary purpose of men is to be walking semen factories. Each day a healthy male will make millions of sperm. The goal for a man is to ejaculate as much as possible into a fertile female and make a baby. This is what makes men find rough sex enjoyable, it’s a signal of the male being sexually powerful. It’s in a sense like getting excited over the length of the barrel of a gun. Ooooh so big. 

Because of this, the Female Body Agenda assumes that the male she is having sex with will be unfaithful. By constantly seeking to drain a man of sperm, she assures herself he will not be able to perform if he cheats on her. A husband can avoid this by simply denying her sex. A couple can have fairly frequent sex, but if he avoids sex with her, or just gives her oral in the three or four days before he wanders, the wife is rendered defenseless. There’s a standing army of the husband’s sperm ready to impregnate his affair partner.

As a variant on this, if a husband has sex with a lover, he will often return to his wife and immediately seek sex from her as well. The wife may be quite surprised by his initiation of sex and sexual intensity. What is happening is his Body Agenda is seeking to spread this sperm in a desperate attempt to win the survival of the fittest game.

The wife is at a decided disadvantage. It’s important to wave the flag again that this sort of planned deceit on the husband’s part can happen completely unconsciously; the Rationalization Hamster can likely supply several excellent reasons as to why he avoided his wife. Plus obviously the hook-up with the lover was just an appalling lapse of character. In fact he’s just realized from that hook-up how very empty sex without love can be and he now knows that deep down he really loves his wife and wants to make it work with her. So perhaps some good came of the whole thing. The Rationalization Hamster is holding off on telling him that the next pretty thing will soon have him drooling like a mastiff. (See how the Rationalization Hamster works?)


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## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok here's the section from MMSL I was talking about, Reformed...and I'd like to throw in here right now, that there is plenty of evidence that shows that sex and sexual contact is not "only" for making babies, as this crap asserts. Humans use sex with each other for many things including bonding and communication, and so do several other species...from here out is quoted from Married Man Sex Life, page and section noted (sorry it is so long, just skim it and you'll see all you need to see):


Like you I don't agree with all his "crap", but I understand his point and what he's trying to do. Sex is HUGE for bonding, it's the reason why someone could leave a loyal and dedicated relationship partner, for someone they hardly know and have no real life experience with.

Leaving a sex partner who it was going good with and there was a strong connection can be PHYSICALLY and EMOTIONALLY PAINFUL. 



Faithful Wife said:


> *(1.13) Sperm Warfare*
> Having discussed concealed ovulation and how women are designed to be able to deceive their man and poach another man’s genes on the sly, we come to the way the male body attempts to counter that female strategy. Men have ways of fighting back and trying to stop another man getting his partner pregnant. One defense against another man’s sperm is the way the penis is shaped. A penis being thrust into a vagina actually creates a mild suction and will slowly draw out any other semen present. Long and vigorous sex will create greater suction.


So "bigger heads" would be more efficient than a "slim head". Personally I don't buy that the penis evolved for this reason alone and wouldn't all animals where multiple males could copulate have a similar design?



Faithful Wife said:


> A larger penis probably creates greater suction than a smaller one. It seems counter-intuitive, but if a wife’s infidelity is discovered or suspected, a husband can become both extremely angry and wildly sexually aroused as well. It’s a natural biological reaction to seek to immediately enter her and thrust very aggressively, unconsciously seeking to displace the other man’s semen by pumping it out. This is what makes women find rough sex enjoyable, it’s a signal of the male being sexually powerful. Having just terrorized every man with less than a monstrous sized penis that he is inadequate as a lover, it’s best to consider that it’s in a sense like getting excited over the length of the barrel of a gun. Ooooh so big.


Well women do get excited over the size of the gun and a proud and large flaccid. It's the "eye candy" effect, similar to a male seeing a big set of boobs who needs to see that, or a man seeing his perfect female body unclothed.

I don't buy into that the penis was designed to pump others semen out, it's almost like women don't have a mind of their own and just have to screw every alpha or bigger alpha that is around, and the bigger alphas have to screw these smaller alphas wives to assert dominance.



Faithful Wife said:


> Yet the penis is simply a delivery system for the more important thing – semen. A primary purpose of men is to be walking semen factories. Each day a healthy male will make millions of sperm. This is why teenage boys lean on everything and can hardly stand up straight. Making 100 million sperm before breakfast is work. Women coast on juggling a single – maybe two – eggs a month which just seems lazy by comparison. The goal for a man is to ejaculate as much as possible into a fertile female and make a baby.


I agree. The penis is there to deliver semen efficiently into it's corresponding species.

I will add this about size. If porn c0cks were what all women were most interested in, the average penis size would be closer to that of porn c0cks. It is not, the average is the average due to natural selection and supply and demand.



Faithful Wife said:


> Sperm can survive for up to five days inside a female, so the plan is that as long as he can keep her topped off with his sperm swimming around inside her, he’ll eventually get lucky and get her pregnant. The other reason a male wants to keep a female topped off with sperm is that not all sperm are actually designed to make a run at the egg. Sperm come in three basic types: runners, blockers and killers. Only 1-2% of all the sperm are “runners” designed to make a break for the egg and fertilize it. The rest of the sperm split into two basic groups of “blockers” and “killers”. The blockers act like a defensive line in football, they form chains of themselves and attempt to block up the females reproductive tract and deny access to any other male’s competing sperm. The killers live up to their name too and patrol around looking to attack sperm play a game of football against other sperm, you have it completely right.


Well there is some design between "competing" sperms, that was taught in biology. But I don't think the species adapted in this manner to assume anothers sperm is in there, i believe it was more of a "just in case" design.



Faithful Wife said:


> On a biological level, the Male Body Agenda assumes that the female he is having sex with will be unfaithful. By constantly seeking to top off a female’s reproductive tract with sperm, he assures himself a standing army inside her ready to repel another male’s sperm if she cheats on him. A wife can avoid having a standing army of her husband’s sperm inside her by simply denying him sex. A couple can have fairly frequent sex, but if she avoids sex with him, or just gives him handjobs or blowjobs in the three or four days before she ovulates, the husband is rendered defenseless from a sperm warfare perspective if she meets a lover for sex. There’s no standing army of the husband’s sperm to fight off the lover’s sperm.


I believe Athol is assuming that the female will be unfaithful to help the men to assert themself more strongly and to position themself more strongly against the others. I think alot of his discussion while it is some garbage in my opinion, if you buy into the assumption that all women are potentially cheating wh0res, then you put the onus on yourself as a man. You don't have to be the best man for them, but be the best man for you and to achieve options in life that you prefer. And if this terrible assumption of women, to always ensure that your interaction with them allows you to meet the needs that you would like such a relation to contain.

I personally know all of them arent' but the ones who are will take advantage of someone who is naive and do so quickly. 



Faithful Wife said:


> Importantly because the lover is not likely to have many attempts at sex with the wife, his ejaculation will be extremely large and flood her vagina. The husband is at a decided disadvantage. It’s important to wave the flag again that this sort of planned deceit on the wife’s part can happen completely unconsciously; the Rationalization Hamster can likely supply several excellent reasons as to why she avoided her husband’s semen in her vagina for a few days before she ovulated. Plus obviously the hook-up with the lover was just an appalling lapse of character. She’s not that kind of girl. In fact she’s just realized from that hook-up how very empty sex without love can be and she now knows that deep down she really loves her husband and wants to make it work with him. So perhaps some good came of the whole thing. The Rationalization Hamster is holding off on telling her she’s pregnant for a bit…missed periods sometimes just happen you know. (See how the Rationalization Hamster works?)


Well some good does come of it. Most of these cheating wives eventually come to the realization they are just "hookups" for these interlopers. The thing about it, is many women who are married end up enjoying the single game and don't mind being a hookup.



Faithful Wife said:


> Sperm warfare also explains why if a husband is denied regular sex with his wife, he typically becomes fixated on the lack of sex with her to the exclusion of every other issue in the relationship.


Being denied of sex and good intimacy gets you focused on all sorts of things which will keep you sexless and not looking as attractive as you are with a good sex life. It has nothing to do with sperm.



Faithful Wife said:


> After five days of no vaginal sex, all his sperm inside her are either dead or have dripped out of her. In a “get her pregnant” sense it’s like he’s never had sex with her. He wants her topped off; instead she’s completely empty of his sperm.


I guess that's how Athol Kaye looks at it. He wants his wife topped off.



Faithful Wife said:


> She is therefore providing him with a very strong expression of disinterest in him. She may say that she loves him, but he will typically experience her actions as a deeply concerning rejection.


When a wife takes on a lover she will reject the husband, because she has given the lover ownership to her vagina and her body. Plus the bonding thing will make her prefer and be closer to the lover than her own husband.



Faithful Wife said:


> As a variant on this, if a wife has sex with a lover, she will often return to her husband and immediately seek sex from him as well. The husband may be quite surprised by her initiation of sex and her highly sexual intensity. What is happening is her Body Agenda is seeking to actively play the sperm armies against each other in a survival of the fittest game to find the winning sperm. If the husband is unaware of the lover, he likely just experiences this as a wonderfully intense sex experience that likely extends over several sessions.


Don't agree with this. Sometimes, she's just a horny hoe, because she's acting like one being with the multiple guys. So she's like what the heck. But for many of the cheaters, the spouse will actually be shut out, while the affair partner reaps all the love, kindness and benefits.



Faithful Wife said:


> For those involved in the Hotwife or Cuckolding lifestyles, this return of the wife after being with a lover for immediate sex with the husband is a point of purposeful enjoyment.


Shaking my head.


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## treyvion

always_alone said:


> Mehinks Athol is the one with the rationalization hamster!
> 
> On one hand, men are supposed to alpha up so they can be one of those super hot 20% that actually get sex, instead of the beta boy who provides but doesn't not get laid, and yet here "the lover" is supposedly the one who has excess sperm because he doesn't have as much access to the wife.


HIs book is designed to get men who have been cheated on and/or sexless to rediscover their balls and focus on thier onus as themself as a man. I know much of it is crap, but it's a purpose of getting a male to focus on a male agenda and ensure his needs will get met.



always_alone said:


> Okay, I know, this doesn't deserve to be taken remotely seriously. SB and Lyris had the right response.
> 
> Yet still this book is touted constantly here as some great insightful relationship saver.


If you take his stuff literally, you will Alpha up and shine up some of your animalistic and power side.


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## always_alone

treyvion said:


> If you take his stuff literally, you will Alpha up and shine up some of your animalistic and power side.


If I end up on the dating scene again, I think I might find good use for that book. Anyone who finds its scientific explanations or analysis of how men should behave even remotely reasonable or credible is simply not someone I would ever go out with.


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## COGypsy

always_alone said:


> If I end up on the dating scene again, I think I might find good use for that book. Anyone who finds its scientific explanations or analysis of how men should behave even remotely reasonable or credible is simply not someone I would ever go out with.


I may have to amend my list of pre-qualifying dealbreakers to include a screenshot of a guy's Kindle library, bookshelf and nightstand to make sure that he's not been unduly influenced by this bunk!


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## Deejo

always_alone said:


> If I end up on the dating scene again, I think I might find good use for that book. Anyone who finds its scientific explanations or analysis of how men should behave even remotely reasonable or credible is simply not someone I would ever go out with.


Is your real name Google? Cuz baby, you've got everything I've been searching for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKKa_OlSXgQ


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## treyvion

always_alone said:


> If I end up on the dating scene again, I think I might find good use for that book. Anyone who finds its scientific explanations or analysis of how men should behave even remotely reasonable or credible is simply not someone I would ever go out with.


He's trying to rebuild that "raw lust" attractor in some of the males, and had to use the mindset of a more simple male in order to do it. His documents do consider helping the woman some bit.


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## always_alone

COGypsy said:


> I may have to amend my list of pre-qualifying dealbreakers to include a screenshot of a guy's Kindle library, bookshelf and nightstand to make sure that he's not been unduly influenced by this bunk!


No kidding, eh? Red-flag city!


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## Created2Write

FrenchFry said:


> Why this feels "wrong" to me--I'm not in an adversarial relationship with my husband. I'm hopefully in a collaborative relationship with him. We are playing doubles on the same team.


:iagree:


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## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok here's the section from MMSL I was talking about, Reformed...and I'd like to throw in here right now, that there is plenty of evidence that shows that sex and sexual contact is not "only" for making babies, as this crap asserts. Humans use sex with each other for many things including bonding and communication, and so do several other species...from here out is quoted from Married Man Sex Life, page and section noted (sorry it is so long, just skim it and you'll see all you need to see):
> 
> *(1.13) Sperm Warfare*
> Having discussed concealed ovulation and how women are designed to be able to deceive their man and poach another man’s genes on the sly, we come to the way the male body attempts to counter that female strategy. Men have ways of fighting back and trying to stop another man getting his partner pregnant. One defense against another man’s sperm is the way the penis is shaped. A penis being thrust into a vagina actually creates a mild suction and will slowly draw out any other semen present. Long and vigorous sex will create greater suction.


.........I really am beyond words. 



> A larger penis probably creates greater suction than a smaller one. It seems counter-intuitive, but if a wife’s infidelity is discovered or suspected, a husband can become both extremely angry and wildly sexually aroused as well. It’s a natural biological reaction to seek to immediately enter her and thrust very aggressively, unconsciously seeking to displace the other man’s semen by pumping it out. This is what makes women find rough sex enjoyable, it’s a signal of the male being sexually powerful. Having just terrorized every man with less than a monstrous sized penis that he is inadequate as a lover, it’s best to consider that it’s in a sense like getting excited over the length of the barrel of a gun. Ooooh so big.


Hogwash. I love rough sex and have never cheated on my husband. And here I thought MMSL was a _helpful_ book for married couples!



> Yet the penis is simply a delivery system for the more important thing – semen. A primary purpose of men is to be walking semen factories.


WAIT, what?! Talk about misandry at its core!! How do men buy into this?



> Each day a healthy male will make millions of sperm. This is why teenage boys lean on everything and can hardly stand up straight. Making 100 million sperm before breakfast is work. Women coast on juggling a single – maybe two – eggs a month which just seems lazy by comparison. The goal for a man is to ejaculate as much as possible into a fertile female and make a baby.


Oh please. If he was crazy before, he's utterly lost his mind now. 



> Sperm can survive for up to five days inside a female, so the plan is that as long as he can keep her topped off with his sperm swimming around inside her, he’ll eventually get lucky and get her pregnant. The other reason a male wants to keep a female topped off with sperm is that not all sperm are actually designed to make a run at the egg. Sperm come in three basic types: runners, blockers and killers. Only 1-2% of all the sperm are “runners” designed to make a break for the egg and fertilize it. The rest of the sperm split into two basic groups of “blockers” and “killers”. The blockers act like a defensive line in football, they form chains of themselves and attempt to block up the females reproductive tract and deny access to any other male’s competing sperm. The killers live up to their name too and patrol around looking to attack sperm play a game of football against other sperm, you have it completely right.


Oh for the love of all that makes sense, this is insane!



> On a biological level, the Male Body Agenda assumes that the female he is having sex with will be unfaithful. By constantly seeking to top off a female’s reproductive tract with sperm, he assures himself a standing army inside her ready to repel another male’s sperm if she cheats on him. A wife can avoid having a standing army of her husband’s sperm inside her by simply denying him sex. A couple can have fairly frequent sex, but if she avoids sex with him, or just gives him handjobs or blowjobs in the three or four days before she ovulates, the husband is rendered defenseless from a sperm warfare perspective if she meets a lover for sex. There’s no standing army of the husband’s sperm to fight off the lover’s sperm.


Because God forbid a wife actually _likes_ giving her husband oral and manual...ya know...to keep things spicy in the bedroom. A woman who enjoys sex can't also be faithful, apparently. 

Ridiculous. 



> Importantly because the lover is not likely to have many attempts at sex with the wife, his ejaculation will be extremely large and flood her vagina. The husband is at a decided disadvantage. It’s important to wave the flag again that this sort of planned deceit on the wife’s part can happen completely unconsciously; the Rationalization Hamster can likely supply several excellent reasons as to why she avoided her husband’s semen in her vagina for a few days before she ovulated. Plus obviously the hook-up with the lover was just an appalling lapse of character. She’s not that kind of girl. In fact she’s just realized from that hook-up how very empty sex without love can be and she now knows that deep down she really loves her husband and wants to make it work with him. So perhaps some good came of the whole thing. The Rationalization Hamster is holding off on telling her she’s pregnant for a bit…missed periods sometimes just happen you know. (See how the Rationalization Hamster works?)


See how stupidity works?



> Sperm warfare also explains why if a husband is denied regular sex with his wife, he typically becomes fixated on the lack of sex with her to the exclusion of every other issue in the relationship. After five days of no vaginal sex, all his sperm inside her are either dead or have dripped out of her. In a “get her pregnant” sense it’s like he’s never had sex with her. He wants her topped off; instead she’s completely empty of his sperm. She is therefore providing him with a very strong expression of disinterest in him. She may say that she loves him, but he will typically experience her actions as a deeply concerning rejection. As a variant on this, if a wife has sex with a lover, she will often return to her husband and immediately seek sex from him as well. The husband may be quite surprised by her initiation of sex and her highly sexual intensity. What is happening is her Body Agenda is seeking to actively play the sperm armies against each other in a survival of the fittest game to find the winning sperm. If the husband is unaware of the lover, he likely just experiences this as a wonderfully intense sex experience that likely extends over several sessions. For those involved in the Hotwife or Cuckolding lifestyles, this return of the wife after being with a lover for immediate sex with the husband is a point of purposeful enjoyment.


He must be unaware that sometimes _life happens_ and sexual desires aren't as strong due to depression, anxiety, loss, stress, that men also deny their wives sexual intimacy for many different reasons, and that even the normal routines of life with jobs, bills, kids and recreational activities can effect sexual arousal in both spouses. 

Whatever world he lives in, I never want to visit it.


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## RandomDude

Faithful Wife said:


> There's a really silly saying something like the title of this thread, implying that in order to "get" a woman, you don't ask her or other women how to "get" her...because since we are like deer (ie: prey) we don't WANT men to catch us, therefore women would tell you lies if you asked them how to catch us.


Although I agree with you that obviously women do desire companionship I also agree somewhat with those men when it comes to "advice" in terms of the game.

Women are obviously less experienced then men when it comes to courting women, and courting women is obviously different from how men are courted.


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## treyvion

RandomDude said:


> Although I agree with you that obviously women do desire companionship I also agree somewhat with those men when it comes to "advice" in terms of the game.
> 
> Women are obviously less experienced then men when it comes to courting women, and courting women is obviously different from how men are courted.


Man could also gather notes with other successful copulators, and talk about what "should" work and what they want versus what actually works, even some of it being backwards logically.


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## Created2Write

What works for some women will not work for every woman. What turns one woman on will not turn every woman on. If already in a romantic or sexual relationship with a woman where things aren't going as smoothly as one or both partners would wish, just ask the woman herself. If she's distancing herself, she probably knows why, and if she doesn't, she'll be able to communicate that with you. 

If not in a relationship but wanting to be in one with a specific woman and it doesn't seem to work, then talking with others _might_ help, but it also might get you terrible advice. Sometimes we don't succeed with the person we're pursuing. It's life. Move on and find the woman who wants you.


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## ocotillo

This is intended as more humorous than flippant, but allow me to juxtapose the two thoughts:



> If already in a romantic or sexual relationship with a woman where things aren't going as smoothly as one or both partners would wish, just ask the woman herself.....she'll be able to communicate that with you.





> What works for some women will not work for every woman.


I would be willing to bet pretty much any sum we could negotiate that avoidance of the topic, temporizing, refusing to discuss it, denials, recriminations and endless excuses on the occasions when it is discussed that over time, actually contradict each other are more typical of what a person in a sexless relationship experiences with their spouse.


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## treyvion

Created2Write said:


> What works for some women will not work for every woman. What turns one woman on will not turn every woman on. If already in a romantic or sexual relationship with a woman where things aren't going as smoothly as one or both partners would wish, just ask the woman herself. If she's distancing herself, she probably knows why, and if she doesn't, she'll be able to communicate that with you.
> 
> If not in a relationship but wanting to be in one with a specific woman and it doesn't seem to work, then talking with others _might_ help, but it also might get you terrible advice. Sometimes we don't succeed with the person we're pursuing. It's lisomeone might knofe. Move on and find the woman who wants you.


Someone might know what works on her specifically
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude

ocotillo said:


> I would be willing to bet pretty much any sum we could negotiate that avoidance of the topic, temporizing, refusing to discuss it, denials, recriminations and endless excuses on the occasions when it is discussed that over time, actually contradict each other are more typical of what a person in a sexless relationship experiences with their spouse.


If this forum is any indication of the woes that sexless partners go through then I should quote your post for truth


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## Faithful Wife

ocotillo said:


> I would be willing to bet pretty much any sum we could negotiate that avoidance of the topic, temporizing, refusing to discuss it, denials, recriminations and endless excuses on the occasions when it is discussed that over time, actually contradict each other are more typical of what a person in a sexless relationship experiences with their spouse.


This is true Ocotillo....but it is true even if the man is less sexual than the woman. Just sayin'. Your post was in response to Created and her post was about women, so in a way your post is meant to be about sexless marriages where women are the LD ones. Yet so many sexless marriages have an LD man, probably at least half of them are that way. I've known so many women who are in a similar dynamic to Curious Wife's sexual relationship, and the LD men do just as well at temporizing, refusing to discuss, denial, recriminations and endless excuses.


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## ocotillo

Faithful Wife said:


> This is true Ocotillo....but it is true even if the man is less sexual than the woman. Just sayin'. Your post was in response to Created and her post was about women, so in a way your post is meant to be about sexless marriages where women are the LD ones. Yet so many sexless marriages have an LD man, probably at least half of them are that way. I've known so many women who are in a similar dynamic to Curious Wife's sexual relationship, and the LD men do just as well at temporizing, refusing to discuss, denial, recriminations and endless excuses.


Sexless marriage where the woman is the LD individual is my own personal experience, so yes, I did have that in mind. 

But I would have to agree with you've said above and what I described is really a human thing, not a gender specific thing. 

When one partner in the marriage is doing their level best and the other is still withholding, there is no way (Unless they are just altogether amoral) that they don't realize somewhere deep down inside that what they are doing is wrong. And the longer the withholding goes on, the more obvious it becomes.

Getting someone else to face a truth about themselves that is uncomplimentary is no mean feat. Yet that is implicit in approaching the withholding spouse in a sexless marriage and trying to simply talk it out. It's why they'll avoid the subject and do everything else I listed. Humans have an amazing array of defense mechanisms at their disposal.


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