# What's Wrong with You: Your a 40+ Married Man with 2 Kids



## pipedreamer (Feb 6, 2013)

I sent my wife an email asking her how she would feel about me going out tonight by myself or with a male friend after we get the kids off off to sleep. I told her I was thinking about doing something involving listening to music, dancing, karaoke. 

She called me and said asked if I was trying to do harm to our marriage. She said that I am a married man with two small children. That I just can't play it by ear on a whim and decided to go out. That I was not a bachelor in my 20's. That week nights were not good for bar hopping. She said maybe you can go to a movie or to dinner with a friend. She said going out by myself would send the wrong message. And that people do that when there looking to meet someone. 


That maybe I could go out on the weekend if I want to go to a bar with a male or some male friends as a group. She told me that she only goes out a couple times of year with friends/theatre friends (male and female) to activities like karaoke where there is drinking involved. She said don't you'd think I'd like to go out and have more fun? What kind of message would that send if she went out by herself and how would I feel about it. She said that's not were we are in our lives. 

She said, "where are you even getting these ideas from?". Maybe you need a new therapist? She said that maybe she needed to talk to my therapist. I said that the idea was mine and did not come from my therapist or anyone else. I said she was welcome to come along to my appointment(s) and listen or participate to the extent she'd like to.

I told her that I am just trying to be happier and explore new things. I am trying to make our marriage a better one. She said explore something else rather than going to bars and the types of people you'll meet there. 

She said that her volunteer/fun activity is work and doesn't involve drinking alchohol, and that she is hoping that it will lead to a paying job. That there isn't alchohol etc. etc. there in her activity. That she spends all day without much adult interaction as a stay at home home :scratchhead:seeing to the house and children and that it was her outlet. 

I told her that if she wanted to go out by herself that I trusted her. I told her I decided that I wouldn't go out tonight. Maybe some other time. I didn't lose my cool and maintained my composure throughout the conversation.

What do you make of all this? To what extent do you agree with my wife or not? What's going through her mind? Doesn't this seem a bit controlling? Playing Monday night quarterback how do you think I might have better handled the situation. 

Thanks.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

pipedreamer said:


> I sent my wife an email asking her how she would feel about me going out tonight by myself or with a male friend after we get the kids off off to sleep. I told her I was thinking about doing something involving listening to music, dancing, karaoke.
> 
> She called me and said asked if I was trying to do harm to our marriage. She said that I am a married man with two small children. That I just can't play it by ear on a whim and decided to go out.


Coming from my wife, it would perhaps be a debatable point, although I'd argue that it was perfectly valid to get some personal time and/or reconnect with other men.

Coming from your wife, who wants to move to Hollywood for months (at least) to try to kindle some kind of acting career, it's laughable.

EDIT: I see this is your first post. I think I've mistaken you for a poster with a similar name.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Maybe more notice in advance? If you're going out with a friend, then thats not by yourself. 

How about you and your wife arrange a date night for the two of you or with another couple and get some one to watch the kids


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## IrishGirlVA (Aug 27, 2012)

I'll chime in -- 

I have been cheated on in the past but have always acknowledged the fact that my new significiant other is not the same person. I will not and cannot punish him for bad acts of other people. If my new SO decides to go through with a bad act then he will pay the consequences. OK, I digress, sorry -- 

I don't understand your wife's reasoning about not being able to go to a bar during the week but it would be ok if you went on the weekends. If anything, that is where the most trouble happens. No work the next day, tons of young peeps out flaunting their stuff, etc. And if her idea of a good time is going to the movie theater than great! Good for her! But you have other ideas about what you like and if that is having a few drinks watching people sing songs they have no business singing then I don't see anything wrong with that. 

It's so important for spouses to have interests outside of marriage. It is healthy to have that independence. It is also healthy to have a wife that trusts you until you give her a reason not to. 

Just my two cents......


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

listen if going out and drinking a beer or two once in a while is important to you then put your foot down and say too bad I'm going out. see ya when I get home or not. if you continue to act like my mother!

she sounds very controling and degrading the way she comunicates with you. people will treat you the way you let them.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I think your first mistake was ASKING her for permission. That opened the door for her to control you. What you do is tell her you need time with friends then make the plans and go. This can be done in love, kindness, respect with adequate notice, in balance, etc. Read No More Mr. Nice Guy for better explanations about how to reclaim your independent side and how to tell your wife.

I completely agree with Chilly she's your wife not your mother.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

I think I would be bothered at the idea of "by your self" but not so much with friend.(as long as the friend was a decent guy and not the type to be interested in wife bashing).Also my "alarm bells" right or wrong would be curious why you just "decided" that spur of the moment and it was an unusual request.At the least I would wonder if you were bored with me or getting stir crazy etc..I would probably go with you(get a sitter) and have a good time..if I couldnt get a sitter on that short notice makes plans to go in the near future.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I think I would be bothered at the idea of "by your self"
> 
> At the least I would wonder if you were bored with me or getting stir crazy etc..


Why? Lots of people need alone time and it has NOTHING to do with being bored or going stir crazy. :scratchhead:

I LOVE my alone time and I LOVE my husband. Can't I do both without him taking it personally?


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

I think going out on occassion is fine, but I think the way you handled it or maybe came across to her, sent off alarms in her head possibly. For one thing this statement below was probably not the best way to word that. 

"I told her that I am just trying to be happier and explore new things. I am trying to make our marriage a better one."

Maybe to her going out with a friend to a bar doesn't sound like its making the marriage better. I would suggest that since you are seeing a therapist, ask them their opinion and see what they have to say.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Oh but I will agree with Chilly Morn..her "tone" if you realyed it correctly seems a bit condescnening and judmental.Like she is the "mature superior " one and you are the silly childish one that does't know right from wrong that her way is the only way as well.

I remember this woman told me one time..That after children ..and ESPECIALLY after 30 a mature woman does not wear tight fitting jeans.(of course I was wearing tight fitting jeans + heals LOL)..I chalked it up to my size 3 figure after 3 children and her insecurities even though she was/is still actually drop dead gorgeous.Funny she is about 46 now..Wears tight fitting jeans LOL!!!Point is she was talking to me like I was morally inferior..and that this "rule" SHE had in her head was just a plain FACT..So I wasnt a "mature woman" is what she was saying..and somehow a bad "mother"..


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

So you told her this...told her that...explained how you felt...then did what she told you to.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Why? Lots of people need alone time and it has NOTHING to do with being bored or going stir crazy. :scratchhead:
> 
> I LOVE my alone time and I LOVE my husband. Can't I do both without him taking it personally?


Really what I mean by that if its "out of the blue" ..ya know a change in the norm..Alone time is one thing..alone time in a bar on a dance floor singing on a stage???If that is this "sudden" desire..I would worry about maybe they are getting bored with me(or just life)..or stir crazy...

Its the kind of "new behavior' in mid life that might indicate a problem ..MIGHT I say not always is...


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Weeknight bar-hoping?

Yeah - by itself I agree. Bad idea, as a routine.

However - this little dramatic event is cast against a constellation of dysfunction. You guys have alot more going on than simply her not wanting you to go out drinking at night.

Maybe you should get a babysitter and try and spend a little time together and make sure you both are rowing in the same direction. Once you both are more comfortable and you build that trust back up - yeah - then hanging out at a bar with your buds may not seem so threatening if you are not coming home hammered. It can be a good thing - it can be a bad thing.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Do you go out dancing with your wife? 

I, too would not be happy if my husband told me he wanted to go out to karaoke, or listen to music without me...especially after I've been home all day with small children. 

Marriages need to be nourished, by spending quality time together.
GNO'S/BNO's + dancing + alcohol are not good for a marriage. Read Eric's thread...another divorce on the horizon that started with Girls night out.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I LOVE my alone time and I LOVE my husband. Can't I do both without him taking it personally?


You go to bars alone (the kind with dance floors and karaoke) at night after the kids go to sleep?That sounds more like "partying at night without your spouse in a nightclub" than "alone time".

Exception? If he was one of those that karoake was a serious "hobby" (say like bowling ?) ..and I didn't always feel like going?Yeah I can see that..but this sounds "random"..I need some alone time honey...so I think I will around 9PM..go to this club (by myself) and drink and dance and sing ..be home around 1 dont wait up!I think it will be good for our marriage for me to go party without you Oh and alone too...maybe we have different kinds of nightclubs around Dallas..


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## myfirsthissecond (Jan 6, 2013)

I would not care if you went out....if I got to do the same. Tell her that she will be able to do the same on a night of her choosing. If she chooses not to then that's her fault. I think its healthy to have a date night with yourself no matter what you do as long as it doesn't involve sleeping with others. I also think that you should have date night together. But always remember "What's good for the goose..." IS ALWAYS "...good for the Gander."


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

pipedreamer said:


> She called me and said asked if I was trying to do harm to our marriage. I Agree. She said that I am a married man with two small children. That I just can't play it by ear on a whim and decided to go out. That I was not a bachelor in my 20's. Can't argue with the truth. That week nights were not good for bar hopping. Married people + bar hopping = temptations. She said maybe you can go to a movie or to dinner with a friend. Excellent compromise. She said going out by myself would send the wrong message. And that people do that when there looking to meet someone. She's a smart cookie.
> 
> She said don't you'd think I'd like to go out and have more fun? What kind of message would that send if she went out by herself and how would I feel about it. She has another excellent point. Yes, you trust her, but it's best to avoid the slippery slope.
> 
> ...


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## pipedreamer (Feb 6, 2013)

Well, I go to work all day and when she is doing her volunteer activity; I end up watching the kids about 3 hours give or take an hour at least three days a week, and sometimes three days during the week and Saturdays as well as Sunday for part of the day. 

This activity can be as much as six months a year depending on how involved she is. At least she enjoys her advocation. I feel like its more important than me. She harps on me about not having adult interaction. I understand that, but she does get it, and even if her activity is hard work, it is her choice; she could do any activity she wanted to. She's made a lot of friends, and I am happy for that. My my own choice, I haven't done anything for myself for at least two years now. I thought I was doing the "right thing" by making myself accessable to my children and being at home as much as I could since I am away from up to 12 hours a day between commuting and working. I just doesn't feel like there's much left for me. I've really discovered what being a nice guy is. I really have put muy wife's happiness before my own.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Also you said this is "exploring new things".Did you never go out dancing and drinking before now?Did you skip the whole club scene in your youth so this will all be new for you?

For me ..what you are describing would be"re exploring old things" LOL!! Maybe thats where my thinking comes from..been there done that ..A LOT..(and WITH my husband too)..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I just doesn't feel like there's much left for me. I've really discovered what being a nice guy is. I really have put muy wife's happiness before my own.


Then you need to tell her that.But how do you think it would "help" your marriage to go out partying and drinking and dancing in a nightclub?What is "there for you "?I mean do you miss dancing "alone" drinking "alone" and singing " alone" that much?


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

This would have been helpful to include with your initial post. 

That said, I still agree with her. I also think she needs to cut back on her volunteer activity to maybe one night a week and the two of you need to seriously devote quality time together. 

Dr. Harley recommends couples spend 15 to 20 hours together. I recommend that you both read "His Needs, Her Needs" and work on meeting each others needs before things fall apart.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Sorry, but I'm with your wife on this one. Really, two guys are going to go dancing together? 

Save the bar scene for when your wife can go with you, and find other guy time with your buddies. A movie like she said, or a car or gun show, or things that guys do together without raising eyebrows.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> You go to bars alone (the kind with dance floors and karaoke) at night after the kids go to sleep?That sounds more like "partying at night without your spouse in a nightclub" than "alone time".


Preaching to the choir. I'm with you. I don't want to go out at night and thankfully neither does my husband. We'd rather be together once the kids are in bed. 

I recognize that many people need time away though. That was my point. My husband and I are homebodies so this isn't an issue in our house. We're a couple of fuddy duddies who you'll find passed out by 10pm. LOL

I agree with this post you made.



> Then you need to tell her that.But how do you think it would "help" your marriage to go out partying and drinking and dancing in a nightclub?What is "there for you "?I mean do you miss dancing "alone" drinking "alone" and singing " alone" that much?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Right if you are trying to "scare her' or do some sort of "wake up call" to get her attention then you should not be surprised at her reaction or anyones here.

You chose for your activity to do something for "your self" umm..pretty much the "singles scene" .Night clubbing "alone" .For your self would be taking up "golf"..um ..going out with buddies for some beers and darts etc..

I'm sorry but it sounds "manipulative".Rather than you doing something just for your self..Doing something for "your self' if you are married doesnt INCLUDE behaving as a single and going places that is a common way to "hook up" with other people of the oppostie sex..

If I went to a bar alone..danced and sang..I would expect MEN there who were alone to hit on me..offer to "show me a good time" contact them later (be offered phone #'s) etc..as compared (by far)to say if I joined a photography class ..or took up running/biking etc..Spent more time with my girlfreinds (lunches /spas ) etc..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Really, two guys are going to go dancing together?


:rofl:

I'm sorry the song YMCA just popped in my head when I read that now its stuck..But how about his "or going by himself idea"?..Um...John Travolta maybe ?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I recognize that many people need time away though.


Yes mam I do (I'm one of them)..alone time for me now though is everyone else LEAVES the house for 45 mintues..LOL!! Or I lock myself in the bathroom and take a hot bubble bath..Maybe go visit my sister or mother ???Sometimes I have gotten in the car headed "knowhere " and gone "north"..until the road ended then turned around and came home..(got to see lots of horses and sheep LOL)


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Am I the only one who finds it odd that a discussion like this is happening over email?

If you have evenings together a lot of nights, why didn't you bring it up some evening "Hey, I'd like to get out a little more like you suggested...."

I don't think your choice of activity is necessarily great for the marriage. What about hoops with the guys at the gym or golf on a Saturday or a music class (any fun class) or volunteering doing something that has great meaning to you? 

I think diversifying your interests in that way would be healthier for your marriage than going to hang out at a bar. That said, going for a beer with a friend to a sports bar (vs. dancing bar) to just have a drink and hang with a male friend is a good way to blow off steam. But it sounds like you two should have more couple time. What about getting out together? Sounds like you both do your own thing a LOT.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I really have put muy wife's happiness before my own.


To "balance" that out though doesn't equate to you now not considering your wife at all by being unreasonable/selfish and insensitive or to deliberately do things that you know will make her "unhappy" .Its not "all or nothing".And even the thing you are claiming might make you happy (knight clubbing) really seems more motivated in what would make HER unhappy.That's still sort of "co dependent"..You are still doing "things" (or thinking of doing them) to get a "reaction" out of her..do things that you LIKE to do ?Do you know what those are?Is there anything you like to do alone or with friends or have you depended on your wife to make you happy all these years who has let you down? So your first thought is to go where the single females are likely to be to fill that void ?Or is it just to make your wife jealous so she may give you the attention you seek?

Have you read Mr.Nice Guy?Nice guys are manipulative (which is NOT nice) and passive aggressive and that is how you are coming across now..And I'm not be "mean" its my perception.Ya know its like if I said "Im not happy Inever do anything for myself I feel like I get the **** end of the stick because I'm so giving so I told my husband to "enrich " our marriage I'm going out tonight (by myself) to the local hottest spot..get a little tipsy /shake my booty /and who knows..but that will "help me"..


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## in my tree (Jun 9, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Yes mam I do (I'm one of them)..alone time for me now though is everyone else LEAVES the house for 45 mintues..LOL!! Or I lock myself in the bathroom and take a hot bubble bath..Maybe go visit my sister or mother ???Sometimes I have gotten in the car headed "knowhere " and gone "north"..until the road ended then turned around and came home..(got to see lots of horses and sheep LOL)


Haha! I've done that too! 'Drive..drive..drive... Okay, turn around!" 

OP - I can see how she needs something outside of the home but as others have said, she is gone a lot. Can't she give up a night and maybe the two of you could make that your "date" night (where you could go to a bar _together_? Then maybe on another night when she is home you could pick up a hobby like playing cards with the guys, a new sport, join a choir - anything but going to a bar/dancing by yourself.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

in my tree said:


> Haha! I've done that too! 'Drive..drive..drive... Okay, turn around!"
> 
> OP - I can see how she needs something outside of the home but as others have said, she is gone a lot. Can't she give up a night and maybe the two of you could make that your "date" night (where you could go to a bar _together_? Then maybe on another night when she is home you could pick up a hobby like playing cards with the guys, a new sport, join a choir - anything but going to a bar/dancing by yourself.


The driving is "fun"..(I have a compass)  Round trip was(that time) about an hour and 1/2..Nice enough to roll down windows..and "the spirits" were on my side hardly any commercials on the radio and LOTS of music I could SING TOO>..the sunset on the way"home" was SPECTACULAR..Everyone is like (including husband ) where did you go????I said "knowhere " which is the truth (kind of because technically I was "somewhere ")...Now they are used to it..I call it a "walk about" LOL!!


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Oh and by the way North of where I'm from goes straight into Oklahoma ..lots of "flat" praries ...and a few rocks here and there.Its pretty in nice weather..we have BIG skies..

Again maybe I sewed my "other wild oats"..crowded night club liquored up ????NOT "me time"..Now I did shake it down at my sons wedding reception...LOL!!!Normally when I dance though its in my kitchen ..and everyone looks at me like I'm a freak but they really love it..

And OP I'm 45..But oh well everyone is different..


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## pipedreamer (Feb 6, 2013)

I am not trying to be manipulative in this, at least not to consciously. I really want to have some fun, but granted the more I've read and had time to reflect, going out by myself to these places is not such a good idea. I really have neglected myself and need to be selfish in the right way. I've been a nice guy and someone said codependent. Those sound like they go hand in hand. I am realizing that much of how I am does go back to my childhood. I am a good person who loves his family, but has created a situation where his life revolves around his wife and kids and that's pretty much it. I feel like all I share with my wife right now is helping to take care of the house and raised the kids by babysititing while she's off enjoying herself. For the last month and a half, I started to help much more around the house. I used to basically just take out the trash and do the dishes; cut the lawn. I've been washing, folding, putting clothing that needs to be hung on hangers. My wife puts it away since I usually mix things up that belong to my sons and end up putting her things in the wrong place. I been vaccumming the house. Cleaning the bathrooms, mopping the floors, picking up around the house. I've even made breakfast a couple of times for my family on the weekend and once I even made homemade stirfry. I like helping to take care of my family. I am trying to make things a bit easier on my wife since she hurts and some things are painful for her. 

Anyway, my therapist who've I've been seeing for a month and a half (about four appointments so far) had an opening today. I invited my wife to come along. It will be the first appointment with my wife coming along. I want her to provide her input, participate, or just listen as she desires. Any advice for this this session? No matter what I am determined to keep my cool and not melt down. I have ADD/ADHD and suffer from anxiety. Perhaps I should let my wife and the therapist do most of the talking and see what develops. My wife says that she wants our children to have two married parents. I want that as well. But I want so much more for us. I either want things to improve or just move on. In my previous relationship, I was with my girlfriend for about 7 years, which before I finally broke up with her. Looking back, we were both disfunctional. At the time, I thought there was nothing wrong with me. Wrong. I want to stay married, but I also want to model what a healthy (not perfect, since there is none) relationship is for my children. While we don't fight or yell at each other much. I feel that we are just sharing responsibilities and that my wife is just staying with mainly for the children's sake (she could find another man in a heartbeat), and secondly because I am the one who brings home the bacon and makes it possible for her to do her volunttering since I watch the kids so much. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Perhaps I am being too hard on myself in some respects. I've been a good provider and father that has been there for my children. I do love my family, but I realize that I don't have a great love for myself, and that in neglecting myself, I've developed resentments that I can only blame myself for.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Sorry, but I'm with your wife on this one. Really, two guys are going to go dancing together?
> 
> Save the bar scene for when your wife can go with you, and find other guy time with your buddies. A movie like she said, or a car or gun show, or things that guys do together without raising eyebrows.


:iagree: As a man I understand and empathize – I don’t have a lot of “guy friends” like I did growing up, in college or when I was single. But the “guy friends” that I have now, while maybe not as close, I share a different bond with in that we are doing things with our kids e.g., children’s camping with the YMCA, car shows, sports, scouting and church.

If I need true “alone time” (and I’m the type that does) I have my garage and I will bag myself out of going to church. But for me, a middle aged guy with two grade-schoolers and a job that takes up way too much of my life, the notion of “man time” has taken on a broader prospective of what my role is to my wife and children as a man – and frankly, nickel draft nights at the local bar with a couple of guys don’t cut it anymore.

My Opinion Only – Your Mileage May Vary.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

I do think you need to discuss that you feel neglected in the marriage.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I've been a nice guy and someone said codependent.


Thats very destructive .and not because you "lose out" ..its a bad way to be to anyone around you..Read "nice guy" it makes you a complete destructor of others lives.And so does codependant.In fact it makes you care more about your self than others..I think thats why you would want to run to a bar to supposedly help your marriage/???

Have you read "Mr.Nice Guy"? Its not about some sweet innocent guy that actually cares more about others than himself..Read the book..dont get ideas..I think you have..thats why your answer is to go out partying.(to make your wife jealous I think)..that's the opposite..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Aunt Ava said:


> I do think you need to discuss that you feel neglected in the marriage.


I agree...but he will go night clubbing instead" (typical "nice guy /secretive about true feelings to "avoid confilct)..


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## ComicBookLady (Feb 28, 2012)

Sounds like you both have completely different viewpoints and need to have an open heart to heart to understand each other better and find a solution. She's not wrong for feeling the way she does, and you're not wrong either. 

As for your wife's POV, I'm sure she has no issue with you wanting to go out and have fun, but going to bars with guy friends more than occasionally would send up a red flag for me too! Just listen to her feelings and try to understand them. And I'd not go to the bars YET until you and your wife are on the same level on this issue. If you choose to go despite her feelings, you'll be causing more damage to your marriage.


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## Zing (Nov 15, 2012)

pipedreamer said:


> I really have neglected myself and need to be *selfish* in the right way. I've been a nice guy and someone said *codependent*. Those sound like they go hand in hand.


I really have neglected myself and need to be *self-dependant* in the right way. I've been a nice guy and need to become more *confident * now.

There...I've corrected it...just a twist of the original words


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Did he say beers with the guys? 

He said dance and karaoke 

.....and the difference between this and GNO is?


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## 3Blessings (Jul 8, 2012)

Aunt Ava said:


> Do you go out dancing with your wife?
> 
> I, too would not be happy if my husband told me he wanted to go out to karaoke, or listen to music without me...especially after I've been home all day with small children.
> 
> ...





:smthumbup:
I agree with what you said.........as much as our husbands wants to unwind, we also like to unwind................and it surely hurt that after all day doing housework and taking care of kids, we look forward to our husband coming , at least as adult interaction.....
I lke what you said abt marriages need to be nourished by spending quality time together.......we are not single or a lone now.. this is a fact......we are not alone anymore....lets face it!.... yeah some may think its unfair.... dont want to be tied down... but that what marriage is...... we create a family......and nurturing it everyday...... and the reward is great.

I hope if you love your kids and want them to be the best that they can be provide a good example and environment.....


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## Quantmflux (Feb 6, 2013)

If the OP had posted "I dont get it... Im home every day and my wife says she wants to go out bar hopping and dancing to find herself!" could you *imagine* the responses? Man up! 180! No more Mr Nice Guy!

But the OP posted "*I* want to bar hop and club and wife said no" and the responses are.... "No more Mr Nice Guy!" "Man up!" "She's not your mother!" ?????

Lot's of hypocrisy here.

Keep it simple:

Occasionally blowing off steam or doing something fun solo = good

Establishing a single person lifestyle while in a marriage = bad

Bar hopping and clubbing slot into the second category. Joining a bowling league slots into that first one. To the OP... Whatever issues you are having, as a 40 year old father of 2, the answer isn't to go out and live like a single person.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

anchorwatch said:


> Did he say beers with the guys?
> 
> He said dance and karaoke
> 
> .....and the difference between this and GNO is?


This is my thought exactly. If my husband wanted to go dancing without me he could take his belongings with him and move into a hotel, because he wouldn't be staying married to me.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

dance and karoke with the guys???????????

enough I'm out of here!


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

pipedreamer said:


> Hello,
> 
> I sent my wife an email asking her how she would feel about me going out tonight by myself or with a male friend after we get the kids off off to sleep. I told here I was thinking about doing something involving listening to music, dancing, karaoke.


Well, first off you made a *huge error by asking for her permission. *Don't ask, just do. And especially don't tell her what you're going to do. Dancing is something you can do if she asks to come along, it's not something you do on your own. Basically, that's reserved for your wife or at least for your wife being present. Unless, you were to sign up for a dancing class. That's kind of like signing up for acting class, isn't it? Listening to live music or karaoke is fine. Do you play an instrument or sing? Join or start a band. Going to an action movie that you know she has no interest in is fine, too. Gun ranges are open, gyms are open, motorcycle shops and karate schools are open. Lots to do, but try to maintain an air of mystery about what you're doing.

The whole idea is to start doing your own thing, just as she has "her own thing" and "her own friends" with the community theater for 180 evenings of the year. If she wants to play separately, then by Zeus, you can, too.



pipedreamer said:


> She called me and said asked if I was trying to do harm to our marriage. She said that I am a married 42 man with two small children. That I just can't play it by ear on a whim and decided to go out. That I was not a bachelor in my 20's. That week nights were not good for bar hopping. She said maybe you can go to a movie or to dinner with a friend. She said going out by myself would send the wrong message. And that people do that when there looking to meet someone.


Did you delete your thread? I was looking to see how many nights a week she is out with auditions, rehearsals, performances, and cast parties, but couldn't find the thread. Plan to be out doing whatever interests you for an equal number of nights.



pipedreamer said:


> That maybe I could go out on the weekend if I want to go to a bar with a male or some male friends as a group. She told me that she only goes out a couple times of year with friends/theatre friends (male and female) to activities like karaoke where there is drinking involved. She said don't you'd think I'd like to go out and have more fun?


Couple of times a year, huh? Sorry, but she's a married woman with two small kids, all her activity nights away in the "theater world" count toward an equal number of activities away for you. She's having her "fun" while she's acting. It's a labor of love because she's sure not getting paid to do it.



pipedreamer said:


> What kind of message would that send if she went out by herself and how would I feel about it. She said that's not were we are in our lives.


She's having her nights out pursuing her interests, it's okay for you to have your nights as well. If she goes to parties without you, then what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. All you need to do is project that she has her outside interests and you are developing your own outside interests. If this is a problem, well...



pipedreamer said:


> She said, "where are you even getting these ideas from?". Maybe you need a new therapist? She said that maybe she needed to talk to my therapist. I said that the idea was mine and did not come from my therapist or anyone else. I said she was welcome to come along to my appointment(s) and listen or participate to the extent she'd like to..


It's clear that your wife is used to wearing the pants and being in the dominant position. Since you are starting to assert yourself, she sees the status quo is becoming unbalanced. She doesn't like it. Previously, you were willing to go along with whatever she wanted with no time away for your purposes. Obviously, she doesn't like this.



pipedreamer said:


> I told her that I am just trying to be happier and explore new things. I am trying to make our marriage a better one. She said explore something else rather than going to bars and the types of people you'll meet there.


And that's fine. I used to play in bars in my rocknroll days and most of the people who hang out there, other than legitimate music fans, are trouble.





pipedreamer said:


> She said that her activity of community theatre is work and that she is hoping that it will lead to a paying job. That there isn't alchohol etc. etc. there. That she spends all day without much adult interaction seeing to the house and children and that it was her outlet.


And you spend all day working a real job, not a pretend job, and you need to blow off steam. Her theater is her hobby, it's only work if it's paid or you get sweaty doing it for charity. Community theater doesn't count as charity. 




pipedreamer said:


> I told her that if she wanted to go out by herself that I trusted her. I told her I decided that I wouldn't go out tonight. Maybe some other time. I didn't lose my cool and maintained my composure throughout the conversation.


It's very good that your were cool and relaxed, but you shouldn't have asked her permission, it puts you in the submissive delta/gamma position.



pipedreamer said:


> What do you make of all this? To what extent do you agree with my wife or not? What's going through her mind? Doesn't this seem a bit controlling? Playing Monday night quarterback how do you think I might have better handled the situation.


Again, it all depends on the bar, but generally you need to use your time away from the family for pursuits that increase your sex rank and demonstrate high value, like your bodybuilding program or your new band or whatever your new manly pursuits are.

How far have you made it into MMSL?


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Theater? Oh no, not another one of those.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Pipedreamer, what's her volunteer activity involve? Is Machiavelli correct about Theater?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

anchorwatch said:


> Did he say beers with the guys?
> 
> He said dance and karaoke
> 
> .....and the difference between this and GNO is?


Right.

Having a few beers with guy friends sans girls is ok.

Just like a woman being with her gfs sans guys is ok.

But either spouse going out dancing without the other is incredibly disresepctful in my opinion.

Make note I don't care about the gender here.

Hopefully no woman on here objects to the guys going dancing but not the ladies.

He needs to take his wife out dancing.

Again, if my wife informed me she was going out with her GFs and they were going drinking and dancing without me .... AYFKM. Oh hell no. 

So it would not be right for me to do the same. If I did not care if she did this I would question why I did not care.


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## pipedreamer (Feb 6, 2013)

Well, I've learned what a nice guy really is. Definitely, some really not some nice things go along with being the type of nice guy I am because I have expected to be rewarded for my service and deeds to my wife's happiness. I've put my own interests aside thinking that by being available more she would be more appreciative of me. Since she is gone so often, I gave up my time for activites, just to be around her and the kids during the time she is home, but we really didn't have much quality time together, maybe watching TV shows or something. It isn't selfish to have my have needs and to express them to my wife. It's okay to express my opinions to my wife without fear of rejection or worrying that I will upset her and make her unhappy. I learned that I have to take responsiblity for my life and my own personal happiness. While my wife and children are important of me, I cannot give up my personal identify for them. Right now, my wife still loves me, but she doesn't have much trust or confidence in me. She still has resentments that she needs to let go of in order to forgive me. She has started therapy to work on forgiveness and to address other personal issues she has. Ultimately, I believe I will be be able to stand stall and looking in the mirror and be proud of myself. Once my wife see's that I am following through and making long-term changes I believe that her attitude will change towards me and that our relationship will improve. However, even it our relationship doesn't improve, I will have because I will have become a more complete and happier person for coming face to face with my fears and insecurities and realizing that I can rise above them; That I don't need to be anyone but myself in order to be loved by my wife or anyone else. That I can live without my wife's presence in my life and that there other women in the world that would be happy and accept the way that I am.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Your wife sounds bossy & controlling.

If my husband wants to go to a sports bar with the guys, he simply tells me. I am always invited.

As to dancing, that is something we do together.


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## pipedreamer (Feb 6, 2013)

Thanks. You're right dancing should be reserved for husband and wife. My wife is a bit bossy at times. Sometimes it bothers me. I love her though.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Pipedreamer, just wanted to say you're doing great. Keep up the good work on yourself, things will get better. Maybe she'll change and do the work she needs to do, and maybe she won't but don't let that stop YOU from being the healthiest you can be.


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## pipedreamer (Feb 6, 2013)

A Bit Much said:


> Pipedreamer, just wanted to say you're doing great. Keep up the good work on yourself, things will get better. Maybe she'll change and do the work she needs to do, and maybe she won't but don't let that stop YOU from being the healthiest you can be.


I'd like to thank you and everyone here that has taken the time to read my posts and given me there opinions and advice. My eyes have been open by the different perspectives provided. Thanks for the encouragement. It's really much appreciated.


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

Aunt Ava said:


> Pipedreamer, what's her volunteer activity involve? Is Machiavelli correct about Theater?


Ummm yeah, I must have missed that too. Volunteer Activity does not equal Community Theatre. :redcard:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

pipedreamer said:


> Well, I've learned what a nice guy really is. Definitely, some really not some nice things go along with being the type of nice guy I am because I have expected to be rewarded for my service and deeds to my wife's happiness. I've put my own interests aside thinking that by being available more she would be more appreciative of me. Since she is gone so often, I gave up my time for activites, just to be around her and the kids during the time she is home, but we really didn't have much quality time together, maybe watching TV shows or something. It isn't selfish to have my have needs and to express them to my wife. It's okay to express my opinions to my wife without fear of rejection or worrying that I will upset her and make her unhappy. I learned that I have to take responsiblity for my life and my own personal happiness. While my wife and children are important of me, I cannot give up my personal identify for them. Right now, my wife still loves me, but she doesn't have much trust or confidence in me. She still has resentments that she needs to let go of in order to forgive me. She has started therapy to work on forgiveness and to address other personal issues she has. Ultimately, I believe I will be be able to stand stall and looking in the mirror and be proud of myself. Once my wife see's that I am following through and making long-term changes I believe that her attitude will change towards me and that our relationship will improve. However, even it our relationship doesn't improve, I will have because I will have become a more complete and happier person for coming face to face with my fears and insecurities and realizing that I can rise above them; That I don't need to be anyone but myself in order to be loved by my wife or anyone else. That I can live without my wife's presence in my life and that there other women in the world that would be happy and accept the way that I am.


I will leave the details to the No More Mr Nice Guy crowd. I think there are some good take aways.

However, I see nothing wrong with a person who demonstrates love to another and who therefore expects love in return. This does not make the person bad or flawed. In many instances a good guy can do this and indeed get love back. Nothing evil about it. It is just that past a point it has diminishing returns and at the extreme actually has negative results. Hence one needs balance.

Being good to someone else hsould build up Oxytocin. Building Attraction should build Dopamine.

That said, sexual attraction alone is not what it is about. You can be sexually attracted to many people and not be in love with them.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

pipedreamer said:


> I sent my wife an email asking her how she would feel about me going out tonight by myself or with a male friend after we get the kids off off to sleep. I told her I was thinking about doing something involving listening to music, dancing, karaoke.
> ...
> 
> She said, *"where are you even getting these ideas from?".*


TAM

It's the way the 180 seems to be presented by some: "go out to bars, flirt with other women, move on"

Good way to push the marriage over the divorce cliff IMO

Pipedreamer, you should have healthy activities and socializing with other men. Many ideas have been suggested on the thread. It's hard on a wife to be her husband's only social outlet. I've suggested to my husband numerous times that he call so-and-so (a married male biker from church) and see if they can plan a bike trip together. It makes me feel like his mother instead of his wife that he can't go "play" without me/us. It's an unhealthy dependency IMO.

Unfortunately, my husband went that route that you are toying with - bars and flirting- and has been unfaithful. Good way to push the marriage over the cliff


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

going out for a couple beers with a buddy or two, i see no problem with that. as long as it is occasional and not like, every other day after work.
going to a bar by yourself?
nothing but trouble can come from that. one way or another.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> Blonde:
> TAM
> 
> It's the way the 180 seems to be presented by some: "go out to bars, flirt with other women, move on"


Yeah, those "some" are NOT people who understand the 180.
Those "some" are the 'increase your Alpha' crowd. 

They have twisted the 180 theory to fit their OWN agenda, not unlike how the Nazis twisted Nietzsche's theories to fit their OWN agenda. Or how radical feminists have twisted the equal rights movement to fit their OWN agenda.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Oh and when he was going out to bars (blowing off family responsibilities, breaking promises to his children, self-centered, unreliable, unfaithful) I felt like I had an extra "rebellious teenage child" instead of a husband (only this teenager was uncorrectable). 

So again, he set me up to be "mother" instead of "wife".

Not that you are like him, just my red flag about this idea on TAM that you manipulate her into sexual attraction by being a "bad boy" going out to bars flirting and going into "rebel" mode. Healthy grown-up married women don't want "bad boys".


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Blonde said:


> TAM
> 
> It's the way the 180 seems to be presented by some: "go out to bars, flirt with other women, move on"
> 
> ...


The 180 is not for saving a marriage.

It is one thing for a husband to let his wife see that he is attractive to other women. But it is flat unfaithful to seek out other women, even if it is intended to cause jealousy.

I think that is flat wrong.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Yeah, those "some" are NOT people who understand the 180.
> Those "some" are the 'increase your Alpha' crowd.
> 
> They have twisted the 180 theory to fit their OWN agenda, not unlike how the Nazis twisted Nietzsche's theories to fit their OWN agenda. Or how radical feminists have twisted the equal rights movement to fit their OWN agenda.


I am very much an increase your Alpha person for men who have lost their edge. To get back a balance. But in no way does increasing the Alpha mean being unfaithful or being an @$$hole. Not all the TAM guys understand this or care to.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

E3000,
You rarely disappoint. 

1000 percent agree that: girls night out is fine. Guys night out is fine. A few beers are fine in both cases.

Without regard to gender, I agree that it is TOXIC to your marriage to go out drinking and dancing without your spouse. But even without alcohol, dancing with other people when your spouse is not present is a no no. In any couple who are dancing it is almost always true that one or both of them are treating it as a type of foreplay. 

As for the girls who go out and dance with each other. My general take is that they get a lot of men trying to cut in on them and that is a big part of the fun for them. 

If you really want to dance and it is harmless fun, bring your spouse along. Note: you don't need to bring them along for any other activity I can think of, but this one is too much like foreplay to do sans spouse. 




QUOTE=Entropy3000;1444871]Right.

Having a few beers with guy friends sans girls is ok.

Just like a woman being with her gfs sans guys is ok.

But either spouse going out dancing without the other is incredibly disresepctful in my opinion.

Make note I don't care about the gender here.

Hopefully no woman on here objects to the guys going dancing but not the ladies.

He needs to take his wife out dancing.

Again, if my wife informed me she was going out with her GFs and they were going drinking and dancing without me .... AYFKM. Oh hell no. 

So it would not be right for me to do the same. If I did not care if she did this I would question why I did not care.[/QUOTE]


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Anyone on TAM saying that you should go out and flirt and dance and drink with other women to make your wife more attracted to you belongs.........................somewhere other than TAM.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Blonde said:


> Oh and when he was going out to bars (blowing off family responsibilities, breaking promises to his children, self-centered, unreliable, unfaithful) I felt like I had an extra "rebellious teenage child" instead of a husband (only this teenager was uncorrectable).
> 
> So again, he set me up to be "mother" instead of "wife".
> 
> Not that you are like him, just my red flag about this idea on TAM that you manipulate her into sexual attraction by being a "bad boy" going out to bars flirting and going into "rebel" mode. Healthy grown-up married women don't want "bad boys".


This is wrong for husbands or wives to do. It is acting out. It is cruel and hurtful.

Just want to emphasize this.

That said I do not see a man tapping into his males ness as manipulation. No more than a wife stepping up her sex appeal for her husband. It is not a manipulation. It is engaging.

If a wife loses attraction for her husband who has become too Beta it is the huband responsibility to true that up. This is especially true id she starts acting out and looking for attention for other men.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Pipe,
Do you mind if I make a few guesses. Tell me where I am off base. 

1. When you get anxious you reach out to your wife or ask her to reassure you. 
2. At times in your marriage you would call her to check up on her and make sure she was ok more frequently than she was comfortable with
3. Your wife has felt smothered during some/much of the marriage
4. Feeling smothered has killed her desire for you
5. All this housework is you working hard to rekindle the romance because she says she doesn't want sex because she resents your lack of help with the kids. 

How accurate is this so far? FYI: there is nothing especially clever about my analysis. If it is on the money, glad to explain how I synthesized it. 

We might be able to help you. That said, so far you have mentioned divorce without in any way specifying the source of your lack of marital satisfaction. So perhaps you should tell us why you are contemplating divorce if things don't improve. 



QUOTE=pipedreamer;1443686]I am not trying to be manipulative in this, at least not to consciously. I really want to have some fun, but granted the more I've read and had time to reflect, going out by myself to these places is not such a good idea. I really have neglected myself and need to be selfish in the right way. I've been a nice guy and someone said codependent. Those sound like they go hand in hand. I am realizing that much of how I am does go back to my childhood. I am a good person who loves his family, but has created a situation where his life revolves around his wife and kids and that's pretty much it. I feel like all I share with my wife right now is helping to take care of the house and raised the kids by babysititing while she's off enjoying herself. For the last month and a half, I started to help much more around the house. I used to basically just take out the trash and do the dishes; cut the lawn. I've been washing, folding, putting clothing that needs to be hung on hangers. My wife puts it away since I usually mix things up that belong to my sons and end up putting her things in the wrong place. I been vaccumming the house. Cleaning the bathrooms, mopping the floors, picking up around the house. I've even made breakfast a couple of times for my family on the weekend and once I even made homemade stirfry. I like helping to take care of my family. I am trying to make things a bit easier on my wife since she hurts and some things are painful for her. 

Anyway, my therapist who've I've been seeing for a month and a half (about four appointments so far) had an opening today. I invited my wife to come along. It will be the first appointment with my wife coming along. I want her to provide her input, participate, or just listen as she desires. Any advice for this this session? No matter what I am determined to keep my cool and not melt down. I have ADD/ADHD and suffer from anxiety. Perhaps I should let my wife and the therapist do most of the talking and see what develops. My wife says that she wants our children to have two married parents. I want that as well. But I want so much more for us. I either want things to improve or just move on. In my previous relationship, I was with my girlfriend for about 7 years, which before I finally broke up with her. Looking back, we were both disfunctional. At the time, I thought there was nothing wrong with me. Wrong. I want to stay married, but I also want to model what a healthy (not perfect, since there is none) relationship is for my children. While we don't fight or yell at each other much. I feel that we are just sharing responsibilities and that my wife is just staying with mainly for the children's sake (she could find another man in a heartbeat), and secondly because I am the one who brings home the bacon and makes it possible for her to do her volunttering since I watch the kids so much. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Perhaps I am being too hard on myself in some respects. I've been a good provider and father that has been there for my children. I do love my family, but I realize that I don't have a great love for myself, and that in neglecting myself, I've developed resentments that I can only blame myself for.[/QUOTE]


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Anyone on TAM saying that you should go out and flirt and dance and drink with other women to make your wife more attracted to you belongs.........................somewhere other than TAM.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

I question their agendas.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes. This is pua crap, not marriage strengthening advice. 




Hope1964 said:


> Anyone on TAM saying that you should go out and flirt and dance and drink with other women to make your wife more attracted to you belongs.........................somewhere other than TAM.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

I absolutely believe that the OP can get his marriage back on track.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

E3000,
I have gave noticed a pattern which may warrant a separate thread. The pattern is fairly simple: a (typically it is a man) new person joins tam and spends a long time telling us how upset they are about being sex starved. 

They get tons of advice, some of which they take. Over time their situation does not improve. 

They now begin to suggest the most aggressive advice and tactics to newer members of tam. And I say with near certainty (negative inference) that these are tactics they themselves are afraid to employ. 

This isn't good for the new folks. It is confusing. They are getting a range of advice, but some of it is very high risk and it is getting suggested at the start. 

At some level I think it is bad faith to say "you should do x", to someone when you personally are in the same shoes they are and you are afraid to do x. 

One reason I like your advice is that aside from being measured, it often seems to come from your actual real world experience. 

My view is that at minimum the angry, sex starved guys on here should add the disclaimer of: 
I am angry at my spouse for denying me. That said, sadly I don't have the balls to do this but I wish I did because I think it might wake my spouse up.....

End of rant. 

QUOTE=Entropy3000;1450929]:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

I question their agendas.[/QUOTE]


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> E3000,
> I have gave noticed a pattern which may warrant a separate thread. The pattern is fairly simple: a (typically it is a man) new person joins tam and spends a long time telling us how upset they are about being sex starved.
> 
> They get tons of advice, some of which they take. Over time their situation does not improve.
> ...


[/QUOTE]

I agree with your assessment.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Does she stay home with the kids? I have to say that if my husband wanted to start weekday bar hopping while I stay home along with the kids, I'd be pretty peeved too.

Is there a reason you're not including her in a night out?


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