# Think my marriage is over



## pennyblossom (Mar 12, 2013)

I think I just ruined my marriage. Let me state I do love my husband very much, and I really don't want it to be over, but I don't know if that is going to be enough to get us though this time.

Let me start out, we have been married 15 years and have 3 kids. MY husband went back to college and graduated last spring, he decided the other week, he may want to go to law school. He asked my opinion. Well I did some research, and with his age and the price I just don't think it is the best idea. Our middle child will be in college in 5 years, and our oldest is already in college. So money wise I just don't know if we could do it. Now he is mad at me, and thinks I don't support him. I do support him, I just don't agree with this decision.

We are having other problems at this time also, which have been on going over the last year. I just don't know what to do anymore. We can't talk about issues without fighting, so here lately we have just not been talking. We can't seem to agree on anything anymore. I really don't know what to do!


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm not a counselor or anything, pennyblossom, but I am sure it is discouraging to post about a heartbreaking situation and feel like you are not getting any responses, so here goes . . .

I think you are right on telling him not to go to law school. I have heard it is hard to find work as a lawyer now. To take on all that debt and not end up with a job, esp. as a family man? Not wise. Good for you for doing your research and offering a sound opinion.

How about, instead of talking, you just listen to what he says? When he starts talking, even if he is shouting, you just listen. Repeat back to him what he says. Don't add anything, and don't give your own thoughts. Just keep repeating to him what he says until he calms down. Ask questions like: What could I do to make you feel better? How can I help? Just anything to make him feel like his feelings are being considered and respected would be helpful.

All of that listening and repeating is called Active Listening. It can work miracles in relationships, I think.

If he is able to calm down enough to where he can listen to you, speak calmly. Use "I" statements: I love you so much. I miss feeling good with you. I want the best for our family. I would like us to be able to listen and talk to each other without feeling angry and defensive. That sort of thing. Just try to keep a calm tone and a calm atmosphere.

If he starts getting angry, go back into listening and repeating mode. Keep at it until he calms down again.

Okay, I hope this is a good start for you.


----------



## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

I have several friends that are attorneys. The problem is finding work. Some of the jobs do not pay very well right now.

However, there are some areas of bright spots.

one is immigration. Does your H speak english and spanish?

You are correct about the debt, and timing. But if he does get the degree, and has a good plan, it could work. 

I am glad to see that he is trying to do something. As far as always fighting, have the two of you had any MC?


----------



## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I'm not a counselor or anything, pennyblossom, but I am sure it is discouraging to post about a heartbreaking situation and feel like you are not getting any responses, so here goes . . .
> 
> I think you are right on telling him not to go to law school. I have heard it is hard to find work as a lawyer now. To take on all that debt and not end up with a job, esp. as a family man? Not wise. Good for you for doing your research and offering a sound opinion.
> 
> ...


WOW!!! Penny you just got some well thought out advice. I will leave it at that as I cant top it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read His Needs Her Needs?


----------



## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

pennyblossom said:


> he may want to go to law school. He asked my opinion. Well I did some research, and with his age and the price I just don't think it is the best idea. Our middle child will be in college in 5 years, and our oldest is already in college. So money wise I just don't know if we could do it.


Assuming you are in the United States, the problem is not just money. The problem is simply that too many people are going for law degrees, way more than the job market can absorb. You might want to show your husband articles such as these:

The real problem with law schools: Too many lawyers.

Does America Need 202 Law Schools? - Forbes

One quote: "_The reason for the drop in the number of applications to law school seems to be based on simple math. A Spring 2012 American Bar Association study found that only 55% of law school graduates had gotten a job requiring a law license while the average student took on $125,000 in debt to earn the license_."

Your husband may be unjustly taking his frustration out on you, when it's not your fault for this situation.


----------



## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

I had a similar situation with my husband and also researched it. I found it didn't make sense financially for my husband (mid 50s) to complete another few years of school and work only PT during that time. It is simply the law of diminishing returns.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

sorry I meant he is in his mid 40s.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

The problem here isn't that you are wrong. It is your opinion that it may not be a good risk given the cost and potential reward and it is an opinion based on facts. It is a sensible opinion. Nothing wrong with that. My guess is that it is completely how you approached it. I wonder how he would have reacted if instead of you telling him you didn't think it is a good idea, you told him that you had some concerns and presented what you've discovered, allowing him the opportunity to come to the same conclusion. Right now, instead of it being a logical argument, it is an emotional one.


----------



## pennyblossom (Mar 12, 2013)

jld said:


> I'm not a counselor or anything, pennyblossom, but I am sure it is discouraging to post about a heartbreaking situation and feel like you are not getting any responses, so here goes . . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you for the good advice. I will try that.


----------



## pennyblossom (Mar 12, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> The problem here isn't that you are wrong. It is your opinion that it may not be a good risk given the cost and potential reward and it is an opinion based on facts. It is a sensible opinion. Nothing wrong with that. My guess is that it is completely how you approached it. I wonder how he would have reacted if instead of you telling him you didn't think it is a good idea, you told him that you had some concerns and presented what you've discovered, allowing him the opportunity to come to the same conclusion. Right now, instead of it being a logical argument, it is an emotional one.



I told him I did some research and offered to show him what I found he want interested. He also did research and found some of the same things I did. I know it is not the answer he wanted to hear. As I stated there are other issues with us clod that is not helping matters.


----------



## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

To those of us who grew up in the 80's, becoming a lawyer sounds like you've really made it. But as others have mentioned, going to law school now (or getting several other types of grad degrees), especially for someone in their 40's, makes no financial sense, unless you're going to an Ivy League law school and will be among the top of your class.

Will law school students have jobs after they graduate? - The Washington Post

I'm not sure the OP should have to tiptoe around her husband with this information. She's supposed to *hint* that he might waste $150k on something that sounds cool? The guy is old enough to be able to deal with reality.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You're right, pink lady. She should make very clear that she does not agree with his spending their money on a degree. She could tell him that if he violates that boundary, she will file for separation or divorce.


----------



## pennyblossom (Mar 12, 2013)

I hope we can get through this, but we have to talk to do that, and we are not talking right now. All he sees is me stepping on a dream he has. I fully supported him when he went back to school the first time. He found the hard way after that, with his age he could not find a new job making enough money with his degree. He got very depressed and withdrawn then. I see us going down the same road now.

I just don't know if I can handle months on end with no communication, and him being withdrawn from our lives. 

I feel like we need to go to MC but I don't know if he would be willing to do that. I am to the point, I may just go to counseling myself. I need someone to talk to and try and work out all that is going on,


----------



## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

My husband was upset, too, but he didn't ignore me. He realized it just didn't make sense. 

Also, I'm in my 40s and have worked hard to make decent money. I want to enjoy this time in my life, not be saddled with another debt and less time together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

pennyblossom said:


> I think I just ruined my marriage. Let me state I do love my husband very much, and I really don't want it to be over, but I don't know if that is going to be enough to get us though this time.
> 
> Let me start out, we have been married 15 years and have 3 kids. MY husband went back to college and graduated last spring, he decided the other week, he may want to go to law school. He asked my opinion. Well I did some research, and with his age and the price I just don't think it is the best idea. Our middle child will be in college in 5 years, and our oldest is already in college. So money wise I just don't know if we could do it. Now he is mad at me, and thinks I don't support him. I do support him, I just don't agree with this decision.
> 
> We are having other problems at this time also, which have been on going over the last year. I just don't know what to do anymore. We can't talk about issues without fighting, so here lately we have just not been talking. We can't seem to agree on anything anymore. I really don't know what to do!


Frankly, most men love a cold hard logical analysis of the facts like you did. Unless he's a prodigy of sorts, if he finds a job it's going to pay under 50k. I live outside NYC and I work in the payroll buisiness and I know this to be true. He might just be mourning a dream of something he's always dreamed of, and that's okay. Maybe you can help find something more realistic and in line with his talents.


----------



## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

Brock, do you mean any job or a job as a lawyer? There are lots of jobs that pay over 50k, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

You put the college kids needs above your DH. You are a wife first and a mother second. We have 2 college kids and they pay their own way. 

What are the other problems the two of you are having? I sense there is more going on. Also I would be proud of him for wanting to better himself. 

The dumb economy goes up and down....your marriage lasts a lifetime.

Be careful you didn't squash his dream. He might build up a lot of resentment towards you and why would you think your marriage is over??


----------



## BWBill (Jan 30, 2013)

Honesty is good for a marriage.

Inability to handle honesty is the problem.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

my advice... ask him to set out everything he has in mind for law school. 

ask him to talk up the idea, and tell him that you want to see if you can warm up it. also state that you wont talk about how you feel about it because you want to focus on how he sees it.
if he goes for it, be sure to not inject your ideas, wait until a couple days later. try to find ways to make his goals viable. look at the down sides as challenges to his goal. 

the idea of this is to show your support for how he feels. passive listening will help you out for that initial discussion. 

when you get back to presenting your concerns, present them in a light of challenges to his dreams that you both will have to face.

if the challenges are not something he can find a way to overcome, he may just drop the idea.


looking at it like this will show him that you DO support him, and hopefully you can get him to address the "challenges" realistically.


----------



## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

tennisstar said:


> Brock, do you mean any job or a job as a lawyer? There are lots of jobs that pay over 50k, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I mean a job as a new lawyer. 50k is a common salary for a new lawyer. Not exactly worth the cost of the degree at this point.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Market for lawyers is mush. I have friend who is very pursuasive, literate, etc. He struggled for years to putting in brutal hours but never made partner. When times were good, the money was impressive. Those times are over. He struggles hard now. He managed to write a book and is interviewed all the time now. It has not made him rich but it affirms his fundamental competence. He was never a bad lawyer.

Perhaps he could have been less principled to make more money. He did have to work for tobacco. I think he hated that.

No, being a lawyer is a dumb career move, unless you husband has a particular area of interest, in which case it might be justified.

But the financial cost of law school is heavy.

By the way, you are not wrecking your marriage. He is doing it at least in in equal part.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

over20 said:


> You put the college kids needs above your DH. You are a wife first and a mother second. We have 2 college kids and they pay their own way.
> 
> What are the other problems the two of you are having? I sense there is more going on. Also I would be proud of him for wanting to better himself.
> 
> ...


Who said anything about college kids? This is about her husband's college.


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Pennyblossom, what is HIS reason for wanting a law degree? What makes it a dream for him? 

I usually try to post responses from a neutral, outsider's point of view, or from my personal experiences that may offer the poster insight, but I'm going to break away from my norm here because this is something I personally care about today. 

You both found out that the scenario is very bleak - tough degree to get in the first place, costs around $100k, and then low pay compared to the investment. 

And yet.... 

We live in a country where very few people can obtain good legal representation because it costs so much. We live in a country where attorneys operate in a way that requires NO accountability at all to speak of. Who can you turn to if an attorney cheats you, doesn't represent you to an appropriate minimum standard, etc.? The answer: nobody. The bar associations MIGHT mediate a disagreement, but unless you sue the attorney, you are at a disadvantage - because they're likely to support each other in order to protect the profession and their future earning ability. And so on. 

This is a pet peeve of mine personally. I've hired about 15 different attorneys now, and only TWO of them ever performed at a MINIMUM standard! I outright caught one attorney padding my bill for 40 minutes (I met with him for a total of 20 minutes but got charged a full hour, and he was 15 minutes late to our appointment in the first place.)

This happened when I was in desperate need of representation and couldn't find anyone who would take my case because I didn't have enough money. We knew that my case would not be settled in my favor without reaching the state Supreme Court, which would cost about $40,000. It was cheaper to pay off the company's $12,000 demand that had wronged me. I looked at the idea of getting my own degree, but obviously if I couldn't afford to hire a lawyer, I could not afford tuition and I did not want to take student loans, but I'm still considering it, and here's why.... 

I believe there is a TON of opportunity for an entrepreneurial attorney to do one of two things: 

1. Start a franchise-style model of "Pro-Se libraries." Perhaps the average person can't fork over $250 an hour to hire someone, but could swing paying for a resource that would enable him/her to represent themselves. I would GLADLY have paid $5k for unlimited one-year access to a law library and to someone who could assist me with knowing the proper procedures in A,B,C order and preparing forms so that they would comply with the formats required by the courts. I'm positive that there are enough people in many counties that would be thrilled to have an opportunity to exercise our supposed Constitutional right to face our accusers in court, but who simply cannot get there. 

2. Another opportunity I see is a for-profit agency that privately contracts with state and federal government as an oversight method for the industry. Of course, this is probably in the far distant future because it would first have to be required by law and, well... that's a bit of an obstacle in itself.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anyone contemplating law school should understand what T14 is and how it impacts law education. T14 basically means unless one went to a top 14 school permanent jobs may be rather hard to come by. My neighbors daughter graduated from a school ranked 15-30 and you can hear the crickets indicating the futility of her job search. Another friend's kid graduated from U Chicago, slam! Instant job with a big financial law firm... Big divide there.

Law does not pay those days. Even associates in nice firms like the second example above make good money but work 80 hour weeks. Not worth the effort.


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

If this breaks your marriage it was already broken. It was the final hit not the first.


----------

