# Are you happy you left? happy you stayed?



## flyhigher

I read a lot of posts about women who fell out of love with their husbands; or their husbands fell out of love with their wives. It seems there is always inner conflict on "should I leave, or should I stay?"

I'd like to ask the question... for those of you who left; were you happy with that choice? Did you ever regret it?

For those that stayed... are you glad you stuck it out? Was the pain worth the regained love? Or do you wish you would have left a long time ago?

Just curious; I wish I had a more experienced married friend to seek advice and experience from in my life; but all my friends are young(like me; 27) and/or not married yet. I was one of the first to be married, and often wish I could get advice from an older married woman.

I wonder if my expectations for marriage are unreal? Is it even realistic to feel in love with your husband.. am I romanticizing marriage? Am I seeking greener grass, when really, this is as green as it gets. I expect hard times, and I know that not everything is flowers and butterflies; I'm not expecting perfection from relationships... but the dead-love feeling is real in my marriage.. and I can't help but be disappointed. (together 6 years; 2 kids)

I'm craving more from marriage; from love; from life.... but, maybe I"m just expecting too much and dreaming of fairy tales that don't exist. 

I guess I want to know... is it NORMAL to feel out of love with your husband? To view him as a friend.. a parenting partner.. a convenience? He claims that he's so in love with me still; and I can see how he tries to show it. I've looked into a lot of things to help out; the 5 love languages was a big one. We speak love VERY differently, and the things he does for me, are not my love language. I miss connection. I miss conversation. I miss heart-to-hearts, and soul searching. I miss intimacy that lasts longer than the sex does. I miss WANTING him. I miss being wanted. I miss the love. 

It's occurred to me that I'm just expecting too much. Any thoughts here?


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## Running Mom

I just want to tell you that I could have easily written your post. I don't think you are expecting too much which is why I just told my husband that I want a divorce. We've been together much longer that you and your husband (20 years). I don't recall feeling this way until recently, though.


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## Married but Happy

I had that inner conflict for years in my first marriage. It was largely sexless, and increasingly lacking in any affection or respect.

When I finally realized that there was no way to fix it (after many attempts), I understood through therapy that the majority of the problem was her, and not me. So, I left.

Anyway, leaving was one of the best decisions of my life. It was like a huge, crushing weight lifted off of me. Sure, things were difficult in the transition, but oh, so worth it! Eventually, I found my current wife, who is everything I was wanted and needed in a healthy relationship. Absolutely no regrets - other than a long-ago regret that I hadn't left that marriage a lot sooner.


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## FeministInPink

Married but Happy said:


> I had that inner conflict for years in my first marriage. It was largely sexless, and increasingly lacking in any affection or respect.
> 
> When I finally realized that there was no way to fix it (after many attempts), I understood through therapy that the majority of the problem was her, and not me. So, I left.
> 
> Anyway, leaving was one of the best decisions of my life. It was like a huge, crushing weight lifted off of me. Sure, things were difficult in the transition, but oh, so worth it! Eventually, I found my current wife, which is everything I was wanted and needed in a healthy relationship. Absolutely no regrets - other than a long-ago regret that I hadn't left that marriage a lot sooner.


I could have written this myself, if the genders were switched around. 

I am SO HAPPY that I left. My XH was emotionally abusive, and I thank god every day that I was able to escape from that... and I definitely owe a big thanks to TAM and my therapist for helping me to see that. I have repeated often, it was the most difficult thing I have every had to endure, but ultimately it was the best thing to ever happen to me.

I haven't re-married, but it is something which I hope lies somewhere in my future--as long as I can have a healthy relationship with an emotionally healthy partner. If I can't find that, then I am happy to stay single.


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## katiecrna

I think it all depends on the circumstances. It's easy to say your happy with leaving if your spouse was overtly flawed, like he abused you, cheated on you etc. it's also easy to say your glad you left if you found someone else who is much better and your more compatible with. 

The problems of course are like you said... are you expecting too much? Is this a normal marriage or is there something fundamentally wrong. Am I unhappy or is HE making me unhappy, or is the marriage making me unhappy. There is the chance you leave and find someone else and you find yourself in the same situation 10 years later. It's a very difficult situation and decision especially when there isn't anything OBVIOUSLY wrong like abuse/cheating. 

I've noticed that with my friends who got married fast and started families quickly that they come to this place that they are still young, but have a life of an older adult. It's almost like a mid life crisis because you hit so many milestones in such a short time while your so young you think... is this it? 

Sorry that wasn't much help. You have a lot of soul searching to do. Maybe your just bored and need a little lifestyle change or something to get you motivated and excited about life again. 
Divorce is hard especially with kids. Can you imagine splitting holidays and child sharing. That will be your life for a long time.


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## Ursula

Like Running Mom, I also could've written your post, as I'm going through these exact feelings right now, and it's the reason I'm seeing a therapist. I was recommended to read the book, "Feeling Good Together" by David D. Burns, MD. I'm part way through it, and it's a decent read. Also, I don't think you're expecting too much at all.


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## Steve1000

flyhigher said:


> It's occurred to me that I'm just expecting too much. Any thoughts here?


I don't think that you're expecting too much. However, be sure that you spouse knows how unhappy you are.


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## DonaldDuck666

katiecrna said:


> Can you imagine splitting holidays and child sharing. That will be your life for a long time.


That's exactly what's kept me in, for now.


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## TaDor

Here are a few quick things to think about:

1 - The grass is always greener where you water it.

2 - Marriage / love levels don't stay constant. They come and go in waves... up and down. It's those down waves that weaken the marriage and can result in cheating or breaking up.

3 - Have you discussed this with your husband. US GUYS are dense. Women feel neglected because US GUYS just tend do to that. Both of you take each other for granted. So with that in mind, when you put the kids to bed - tell your husband to come to bedroom to talk. If he's busy playing video games... tell him its serious and time to talk. "I'm not happy" = nothing to us guys. Yeah, that's life - I'm not happy either some of the time... kids, bills, work, car problems, etc. But saying "We need to talk now, before things get bad and we lose our marriage" should grab his attention.

Watch this video... and then show it to him:


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## flyhigher

katiecrna said:


> I've noticed that with my friends who got married fast and started families quickly that they come to this place that they are still young, but have a life of an older adult. It's almost like a mid life crisis because you hit so many milestones in such a short time while your so young you think... is this it?
> 
> Sorry that wasn't much help. You have a lot of soul searching to do. Maybe your just bored and need a little lifestyle change or something to get you motivated and excited about life again.
> Divorce is hard especially with kids. Can you imagine splitting holidays and child sharing. That will be your life for a long time.


I appreciate the honesty here. We did marry quickly. We were pregnant after a year of dating, and married soon after our daughter was born. We bought our home asap, and had our son 17 months after our first baby. It all happened so quickly; I hardly knew what hit me!
I love how you mentioned soul searching; because the truth is.. that's what i have been doing! These starts have been going on for at least 2 years. Things get better when I tell him I'm unhappy... but it always falls back into old pattern. Last year, I decided that it must be ME that's unhappy; because I have everything most people desire in life... so I started a journey of self love, meditation, spiritual freedom and body acceptance. It has been amazing and I've had to swallow a few difficult pills; but I'm growing and loving myself more and more. I am no longer angry at my husband; I understand that this is just who he is and that that's okay. The more I dig... the more I wonder if we're just not meant to be lovers..
It pains me to think of hurting him. He's not a bad man.. he's never intentionally hurt me, and he's always sincere in wanting to make our marriage work. I don't want him to change who he is in order to keep me fulfilled... that's not fair to him. He deserves someone who will love him as he is.



Steve1000 said:


> I don't think that you're expecting too much. However, be sure that you spouse knows how unhappy you are.


Thank you.. I don't feel I'm expecting too much either; but I've had a few people (including my H) say, "this is what most peoples' marriages look like! this is normal life!" And I can't help but thinking...... maybe I'm different than "normal" people.. ?? I mean, I don't think I am, but.. i think just our personalities and outlooks are different. Where he says, "yeah, this is good enough", I say, "there must be something more"...
So, I'm not too sure. My H is a bit .. hm.. I dont know the word lol. He doesn't ever SEE me unhappy.. I have to tell him. And he becomes mroe attentive for a bit.. but than it falls back again, and I find it becomes a pattern of my having to keep saying, "I'm unhappy again... I'm unhappy again... I'm unhappy again" which totally sucks and makes me feel needy and ****ty.
I'm trying to be happy ANYWAY; without him having to attend to my needs; and for the most part, I AM. but, that means I could miss out on a greater love; and I'd rather have the possibility, than admit defeat. 

I say all this so easily here; but to his face, I shrivel up and am wrecked with guilt. It's so hard to hurt someone who loves you the best they can.


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## flyhigher

TaDor said:


> Here are a few quick things to think about:
> 
> 1 - The grass is always greener where you water it.
> 
> 2 - Marriage / love levels don't stay constant. They come and go in waves... up and down. It's those down waves that weaken the marriage and can result in cheating or breaking up.
> 
> 3 - Have you discussed this with your husband. US GUYS are dense. Women feel neglected because US GUYS just tend do to that. Both of you take each other for granted. So with that in mind, when you put the kids to bed - tell your husband to come to bedroom to talk. If he's busy playing video games... tell him its serious and time to talk. "I'm not happy" = nothing to us guys. Yeah, that's life - I'm not happy either some of the time... kids, bills, work, car problems, etc. But saying "We need to talk now, before things get bad and we lose our marriage" should grab his attention.
> 
> W



I feel like I say, "We have to talk now, before things get bad and we lose our marriage" every 6 months. We have a hard time staying consistent... patterns always, always return. Things get better after "the talk", than he gets lazy and stops being attentive, I try to get his attention back; it doesnt work so I get offended and pull it back, he doesn't notice the pull back, and gets even further into his own world, I start doing my own thing.. and he's okay with it.. I end up realizing, hey, we're back to being disconnected and bitter... and I end up saying, again, "We have to talk now."
Honestly.. that pattern, has been our entire marriage.


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## 3Xnocharm

Sooo many people go through the exact pattern you described. Its hard when one person thinks things are "good enough" because in the long run, they are not willing to make the changes needed by the unhappy partner. They just dont see the need. It seems like some people believe that all you have to do is get married, and no further effort is needed once that is done. 

I ended two marriages, and have never had a single moment's regret about either one. 

When your H DID make attempts at improvement, did you make sure to acknowledge those attempts?


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## GusPolinski

Do the both of you work full-time?

What's your debt-to-income ratio like?


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## Ursula

Holy smokes, this sounds dead-on like my H and I. 



flyhigher said:


> I feel like I say, "We have to talk now, before things get bad and we lose our marriage" every 6 months. We have a hard time staying consistent... patterns always, always return. *Things get better after "the talk", than he gets lazy and stops being attentive*, I try to get his attention back; it doesnt work so I get offended and pull it back, he doesn't notice the pull back, and gets even further into his own world, *I start doing my own thing.. and he's okay with it.. I end up realizing, hey, we're back to being disconnected and bitter*... and I end up saying, again, "We have to talk now."
> Honestly.. that pattern, has been our entire marriage.


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## katiecrna

This is difficult because I think this is common in a lot of marriage and I think it's just the differences between men and women. Men don't need a lot to be happy. Honestly if their wife is happy they are usually happy. But women are more complicated, we require "more" to be happy. So it sets us up to look like we're always complaining, we're never happy, and nothing is ever good enough... or at least this is how it looks from our spouses. 

Our spouse will never fulfill us, and will never be able to give us what we feel like we need. That's just the way it is. So appreciate what your husband is good at, and take that from him. What he sucks at... we can get that from elsewhere, like girlfriends and family and spirituality. 
You are your own person, this is your life. Your husband and your marriage is just a part of who you are and what your life encompasses. So don't make him more than that, don't make him your life. You have your own goals, and you have your own specific purpose. Your spouse is there to go through life with you, not to be your life if I am making sense. Your giving him too much power. 
Life is about balance. Not one thing will make you happy, but you will get a little bit of happiness through many things. Your job, your friends, family, spouse, God, goals etc. 

Look into balance wheels, or life wheels or holistic health wheels or something like that lol. They help you put in perspective what our life's needs are and how to have a balanced life. And I believe when your balanced your more content and at peace with your life. Not always searching for happiness.


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## bankshot1993

I'm not really sure how everyone can so quickly answer that the OP isn't "expecting too much" when none of us even know what her expectations are. Yes, she says what she wants but not how it is conveyed. 

There is a great many people out there that do have a romanticised idea about what marriage is and when they find out it isn't a romance novel they think there marriage is broken and needs to be abandoned or fixed. When our head is buried in a romance novel its pretty easy to lose sight of the fact that it can't all be roses and love ballads. There are bills to pay and long work days to be worked, kids to be cared for and houses to cleaned, commitments to be met and a reality of everyday life getting in the way.

There are so many women out there that absolutely hate when their spouses look at porn because it sets up unrealistic expectations, I for one have the some view on romance novels because they do the same thing. 50 shades of grey was a titillating tale of sex and love, but that's only because the main character was rich, otherwise he was just a creepy reprobate freak.

I'm not saying that marriage should be horrible or that we should just settle for being unhappy, only that we need to understand what that happiness looks like and how it is achieved. There is a lot of women out there that aren't happy in their marriage despite the fact that they have found somebody who treats them well and with respect, is a great father, a good provider and a faithful giving lover. Still their not happy because it isn't what they thought it would be or they don't hear fireworks anymore. the reality is that eventually the fireworks go away and give way to normal everyday life and all the responsibilities that come with it.

TO the OP, only you can decide if your expectations are unrealistic because only you know what you are using as a measuring stick to see if your marriage measures up to your expectation.


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## sokillme

flyhigher said:


> I appreciate the honesty here. We did marry quickly. We were pregnant after a year of dating, and married soon after our daughter was born. We bought our home asap, and had our son 17 months after our first baby. It all happened so quickly; I hardly knew what hit me!
> I love how you mentioned soul searching; because the truth is.. that's what i have been doing! These starts have been going on for at least 2 years. Things get better when I tell him I'm unhappy... but it always falls back into old pattern. Last year, I decided that it must be ME that's unhappy; because I have everything most people desire in life... so I started a journey of self love, meditation, spiritual freedom and body acceptance. It has been amazing and I've had to swallow a few difficult pills; but I'm growing and loving myself more and more. I am no longer angry at my husband; I understand that this is just who he is and that that's okay. The more I dig... the more I wonder if we're just not meant to be lovers..
> It pains me to think of hurting him. He's not a bad man.. he's never intentionally hurt me, and he's always sincere in wanting to make our marriage work. I don't want him to change who he is in order to keep me fulfilled... that's not fair to him. He deserves someone who will love him as he is.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.. I don't feel I'm expecting too much either; but I've had a few people (including my H) say, "this is what most peoples' marriages look like! this is normal life!" And I can't help but thinking...... maybe I'm different than "normal" people.. ?? I mean, I don't think I am, but.. i think just our personalities and outlooks are different. Where he says, "yeah, this is good enough", I say, "there must be something more"...
> So, I'm not too sure. My H is a bit .. hm.. I dont know the word lol. He doesn't ever SEE me unhappy.. I have to tell him. And he becomes mroe attentive for a bit.. but than it falls back again, and I find it becomes a pattern of my having to keep saying, "I'm unhappy again... I'm unhappy again... I'm unhappy again" which totally sucks and makes me feel needy and ****ty.
> I'm trying to be happy ANYWAY; without him having to attend to my needs; and for the most part, I AM. but, that means I could miss out on a greater love; and I'd rather have the possibility, than admit defeat.
> 
> I say all this so easily here; but to his face, I shrivel up and am wrecked with guilt. It's so hard to hurt someone who loves you the best they can.


You are not helping him by not telling him. Give him a chance to fight for the marriage.


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## sokillme

flyhigher said:


> I feel like I say, "We have to talk now, before things get bad and we lose our marriage" every 6 months. We have a hard time staying consistent... patterns always, always return. Things get better after "the talk", than he gets lazy and stops being attentive, I try to get his attention back; it doesnt work so I get offended and pull it back, he doesn't notice the pull back, and gets even further into his own world, I start doing my own thing.. and he's okay with it.. I end up realizing, hey, we're back to being disconnected and bitter... and I end up saying, again, "We have to talk now."
> Honestly.. that pattern, has been our entire marriage.


What does "attentive" mean. Give us an example of when it was good and when it was bad.


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## katiecrna

I can't agree more with @bankshot1993


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## sokillme

katiecrna said:


> This is difficult because I think this is common in a lot of marriage and I think it's just the differences between men and women. Men don't need a lot to be happy. Honestly if their wife is happy they are usually happy. But women are more complicated, we require "more" to be happy. So it sets us up to look like we're always complaining, we're never happy, and nothing is ever good enough... or at least this is how it looks from our spouses.
> 
> Our spouse will never fulfill us, and will never be able to give us what we feel like we need. That's just the way it is. So appreciate what your husband is good at, and take that from him. What he sucks at... we can get that from elsewhere, like girlfriends and family and spirituality.
> You are your own person, this is your life. Your husband and your marriage is just a part of who you are and what your life encompasses. So don't make him more than that, don't make him your life. You have your own goals, and you have your own specific purpose. Your spouse is there to go through life with you, not to be your life if I am making sense. Your giving him too much power.
> Life is about balance. Not one thing will make you happy, but you will get a little bit of happiness through many things. Your job, your friends, family, spouse, God, goals etc.
> 
> Look into balance wheels, or life wheels or holistic health wheels or something like that lol. They help you put in perspective what our life's needs are and how to have a balanced life. And I believe when your balanced your more content and at peace with your life. Not always searching for happiness.


I agree with a lot of this. Like I posted in the other thread Marriage is not a panacea for happiness. It was never meant to be that, that is 20th century Disney happily ever after thinking. We only think this way because we in western society have been so prosperous and have so much free time and wealth we can think of it that way, but then maybe this all comes down to what is modern marriage all about. I personally wouldn't want to be married to anyone who though I was going to bring them all their happiness. That is too much for anyone to ask. 

It is very unfair though to expect your spouse or even your marriage to provide all or even most of your happiness. It can't and it won't. The question is really how much does it have to provide for you to feel satisfied. But I would say if it is more then 70% you are in for a an unhappy life.


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## sokillme

bankshot1993 said:


> I'm not really sure how everyone can so quickly answer that the OP isn't "expecting too much" when none of us even know what her expectations are. Yes, she says what she wants but not how it is conveyed.
> 
> There is a great many people out there that do have a romanticised idea about what marriage is and when they find out it isn't a romance novel they think there marriage is broken and needs to be abandoned or fixed. When our head is buried in a romance novel its pretty easy to lose sight of the fact that it can't all be roses and love ballads. There are bills to pay and long work days to be worked, kids to be cared for and houses to cleaned, commitments to be met and a reality of everyday life getting in the way.
> 
> There are so many women out there that absolutely hate when their spouses look at porn because it sets up unrealistic expectations, I for one have the some view on romance novels because they do the same thing. 50 shades of grey was a titillating tale of sex and love, but that's only because the main character was rich, otherwise he was just a creepy reprobate freak.
> 
> I'm not saying that marriage should be horrible or that we should just settle for being unhappy, only that we need to understand what that happiness looks like and how it is achieved. There is a lot of women out there that aren't happy in their marriage despite the fact that they have found somebody who treats them well and with respect, is a great father, a good provider and a faithful giving lover. Still their not happy because it isn't what they thought it would be or they don't hear fireworks anymore. the reality is that eventually the fireworks go away and give way to normal everyday life and all the responsibilities that come with it.
> 
> TO the OP, only you can decide if your expectations are unrealistic because only you know what you are using as a measuring stick to see if your marriage measures up to your expectation.


This should be on the sidebar.

I think the point is OP, you are never going to be happily ever after unless you make yourself. Doesn't mean you should stay in a bad marriage though.


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## Andy1001

sokillme said:


> What does "attentive" mean. Give us an example of when it was good and when it was bad.


When women realise that men are not mind readers everyone will be happier.
If you want something done just ****in ask,don't expect us to guess.
No,we shouldn't WANT to wash dishes.
If we ask you do you want a pastry with your coffee a yes or no answer is the only one we will accept. Don't say no and then eat half of ours.
If you want more sex just ask,really,just ask.
YES it is your job to tell us what's bothering you because otherwise how the **** are we to know.


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## MrsAldi

flyhigher said:


> I'm craving more from marriage; from love; from life.... but, maybe I"m just expecting too much and dreaming of fairy tales that don't exist.
> 
> I guess I want to know... is it NORMAL to feel out of love with your husband? To view him as a friend.. a parenting partner.. a convenience? He claims that he's so in love with me still; and I can see how he tries to show it. I've looked into a lot of things to help out; the 5 love languages was a big one.


In which ways do he try show his love?



> We speak love VERY differently, and the things he does for me, are not my love language. I miss connection. I miss conversation. I miss heart-to-hearts, and soul searching. I miss intimacy that lasts longer than the sex does. I miss WANTING him. I miss being wanted. I miss the love.


Have you tried to explain this to him yet? 

Maybe seeing a sex therapist could help improve things again. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## katiecrna

If he is attentive you are happy, and If he is inattentive you aren't? 
I want you to reflect on that. 
You are talking about breaking up a family here...


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## katiecrna

Andy1001 said:


> When women realise that men are not mind readers everyone will be happier.
> 
> If you want something done just ****in ask,don't expect us to guess.
> 
> No,we shouldn't WANT to wash dishes.
> 
> If we ask you do you want a pastry with your coffee a yes or no answer is the only one we will accept. Don't say no and then eat half of ours.
> 
> If you want more sex just ask,really,just ask.
> 
> YES it is your job to tell us what's bothering you because otherwise how the **** are we to know.



I am fighting the urge to respond to this because it won't be nice and it will cause problems. Ahh so hard...


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## Andy1001

katiecrna said:


> I am fighting the urge to respond to this because it won't be nice and it will cause problems. Ahh so hard...


Go ahead.I can take it,this day can't really get any worse.


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## katiecrna

Andy1001 said:


> When women realise that men are not mind readers everyone will be happier.
> 
> If you want something done just ****in ask,don't expect us to guess.
> 
> No,we shouldn't WANT to wash dishes.
> 
> If we ask you do you want a pastry with your coffee a yes or no answer is the only one we will accept. Don't say no and then eat half of ours.
> 
> If you want more sex just ask,really,just ask.
> 
> YES it is your job to tell us what's bothering you because otherwise how the **** are we to know.




I unfortunelty agree with this. I think us women think men are better than they actually are. They are just men. And I had to come to the realization... what my husband should do vs what he will do. 

Yea they should be attentive. They should notice the small things. They should take initiative and help out. They should be able to comfort us and show us emotion. Blah blah blah. The reality is many times... they don't. It's not natural to them or in their DNA or something. 

Men are sometimes like children. You need to tell them what to do. They wait for their mommy (aka wife) to pick up after them and tell them what to do. And this notion is reflected when men take their socks off and leave them on the floor. Or take their dish and put it on the counter. They wait for their mommy wife to take care of it for them. Or when they ask you where the (fill in the blank ) is.


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## sokillme

I don't agree with everything on this site but I do agree with these

https://youtu.be/YYNkGTb2Zr4?t=53''

Another one

https://www.prageru.com/courses/life-studies/why-be-happy


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## flyhigher

3Xnocharm said:


> Sooo many people go through the exact pattern you described. Its hard when one person thinks things are "good enough" because in the long run, they are not willing to make the changes needed by the unhappy partner. They just dont see the need. It seems like some people believe that all you have to do is get married, and no further effort is needed once that is done.
> 
> I ended two marriages, and have never had a single moment's regret about either one.
> 
> When your H DID make attempts at improvement, did you make sure to acknowledge those attempts?


I did make an effort to acknowledge when he attempts improvement. My H has anxiety and depression, and I am very aware of the difficulties those present. It's hard for him to make a simple phone call about something simple; say, phoning the school to tell them my daughter won't be there today. I've discussed his mental issues in IC very thoroughly, I've read books and have gained some wonderful tips on how to best support him. I think he would agree that I'm more than patient in this area. When I can see he's pushing himself to help me; I am very aware to say thank you and tell him how much I appreciate it. Unfortunately, his mental anxieties can lead to long periods of not leaving the house, not bathing, not cleaning up after himself. Those are harder to handle for me, as I'm a naturally social person.



GusPolinski said:


> Do the both of you work full-time?
> 
> What's your debt-to-income ratio like?


I work full time. H stays home with out 2year old. He cooks and "cleans" lol. I do my very very best to over look the mess that I really think SHOULDN'T be there with one parent staying home.. but when/if I say anything, he takes things to heart and gets offended easily and is very sensitive. I've started saying things like, "What is a better way for me to phrase that?" when he gets offended if I ask him to clean up the kitchen today... things like that. But he'l just say, "Its not that bad!" ... but it definitely is that bad. Haha.
We are pretty broke right now. It's not looking good.. we may have to down size. He just started mentioning getting a part time job to help out. I'm not too excited though.. him saying is a lot different to him doing.



bankshot1993 said:


> I'm not really sure how everyone can so quickly answer that the OP isn't "expecting too much" when none of us even know what her expectations are. Yes, she says what she wants but not how it is conveyed.
> 
> There is a great many people out there that do have a romanticised idea about what marriage is and when they find out it isn't a romance novel they think there marriage is broken and needs to be abandoned or fixed. When our head is buried in a romance novel its pretty easy to lose sight of the fact that it can't all be roses and love ballads. There are bills to pay and long work days to be worked, kids to be cared for and houses to cleaned, commitments to be met and a reality of everyday life getting in the way.
> 
> There are so many women out there that absolutely hate when their spouses look at porn because it sets up unrealistic expectations, I for one have the some view on romance novels because they do the same thing. 50 shades of grey was a titillating tale of sex and love, but that's only because the main character was rich, otherwise he was just a creepy reprobate freak.
> 
> I'm not saying that marriage should be horrible or that we should just settle for being unhappy, only that we need to understand what that happiness looks like and how it is achieved. There is a lot of women out there that aren't happy in their marriage despite the fact that they have found somebody who treats them well and with respect, is a great father, a good provider and a faithful giving lover. Still their not happy because it isn't what they thought it would be or they don't hear fireworks anymore. the reality is that eventually the fireworks go away and give way to normal everyday life and all the responsibilities that come with it.
> 
> TO the OP, only you can decide if your expectations are unrealistic because only you know what you are using as a measuring stick to see if your marriage measures up to your expectation.


I appreciate what you're saying here. I'd like to be clear that I am not expecting marriage to be romantic every day, or for the butterflies to sing me songs in the morning. I'm a very realistic person. I think what I was trying to ask was, how unhappy is enough to leave. The truth is, yes, I could stay with my husband and live a long life with him; but I will always live in a state of wonder... would I have been better off without him? Has he been pulling me down all this time? Is this really what my life has become? I dont want to look back in regret. My H and I are very different. Yes, I love him; he's a good man.. but I find myself enjoying his company less because we are growing in different directions.



sokillme said:


> What does "attentive" mean. Give us an example of when it was good and when it was bad.


In the earlier years of our marriage, we would spend a lot of time taking longs walks, or drives, and discussing life. We talks a lot about dreams and futures. He opened up to me about his anxieties and depression, and I opened up about my childhood and parents. We got deep and I felt connected to him. Now, when I try to bring things like that up, he blocks me with, "I'm fine." "I don't want to talk about it." or "I just want to game (video games) a little bit, and than we'll talk" and than he'll go to bed before we can chat. When I make a point of having a conversation, and make him sit down to talk... I get eye rolls and sighs and the conversation feels forced and unnatural and cheap. It's not connection. I've mentioned this struggle before, and he said, "What do you mean, we're connecting right now!!" He simply doesn't understand what I mean.



Andy1001 said:


> When women realise that men are not mind readers everyone will be happier.
> If you want something done just ****in ask,don't expect us to guess.
> No,we shouldn't WANT to wash dishes.
> If we ask you do you want a pastry with your coffee a yes or no answer is the only one we will accept. Don't say no and then eat half of ours.
> If you want more sex just ask,really,just ask.
> YES it is your job to tell us what's bothering you because otherwise how the **** are we to know.


I also appreciate this, because this WAS me at one point. I wanted him to read my mind, and know me so well that I didn't have to explain too much. I know different now. My IC has helped me with this and I am very clear with my H, beacuse I know he cannot read my mind.
I've asked for more sex. He says, "yeah, we should get on that" .. and than nothing changes. I've asked for connection and date nights, he always makes it seem like a hassel; I've even said, "When you sigh and roll you're eyes, it makes me feel like a date night with me is a hassel." He'll respond, "Sorry. It's not" .. most of the time, I feel like I'm dragging him around because he doesnt actually WANT to do anything.. which sucks, because I love doing things.

When he and I met, he made himself seem way more social than he is. I only started to see the truth of his anxieties and depression once I was already pregnant. There is a part of me that feels "tricked"... he told me he had lots of friends, and partied (this was in college), loved to travel and do new things. All of this... is not at all true. He also told me he wasn't a virgin; something I straight up asked him. I found out 4 years after being together, that he was. That hurt me; but he said he was embarrassed and didn't want to admit it. I could understand that. We have sex about 1 or 2 a month.. he will not discuss our sex life with me. I've tried, trust me. He shuts right down. It's frustrating.

Honestly, I do try to communicate with my H. I haven't mentioned my thought recently because I'm trying to get a clear idea of what I want and expect before I bring it to him. Bringing it to him at this point will cause his stress and anxiety, and no good will come from it.
We were in a fragile state last year... I committed to IC, but he never attended his. We never went to MC; because I didn't feel the committment from him. He says, "Therapy doesn't work for me"

I can't come on for the rest of the night, but I'll check in in the morning for more.

Thanks again for your responses.


----------



## sokillme

katiecrna said:


> I unfortunelty agree with this. I think us women think men are better than they actually are. They are just men. And I had to come to the realization... what my husband should do vs what he will do.
> 
> Yea they should be attentive. They should notice the small things. They should take initiative and help out. They should be able to comfort us and show us emotion. Blah blah blah. The reality is many times... they don't. It's not natural to them or in their DNA or something.
> 
> Men are sometimes like children. You need to tell them what to do. They wait for their mommy (aka wife) to pick up after them and tell them what to do. And this notion is reflected when men take their socks off and leave them on the floor. Or take their dish and put it on the counter. They wait for their mommy wife to take care of it for them. Or when they ask you where the (fill in the blank ) is.


I agree with everything here but I say it doesn't matter the gender. For myself I would say I am have almost always been much more emotionally mature then any of the women I have been with. I was always much more interested in it. I usually notice when things are wrong much faster then most. I have noticed when co-workers and friends are having issues and mentioned it only to see them astonished that I knew something was up. One time a guy friend at work said, basically I am amazed that you were able to pick up that something is going on when even most of my family doesn't know, but I can't talk to you about it. I think his wife cheated on him. I am generally the one in my marriage to lead discussions on emotion and talking about feelings. I post on a marriage board in long discussions about relationships about emotions. My wife would much rather watch house hunters. 

I don't like and am even kind of offended by the stereotype that men can't talk about their feelings, that we are frat boys. Lots and lots of western romance, writings, poems, movies, novels were written by men. So we can do it just fine. Just read some of these posts on here and other sites and there are a lot of marriages where it is obvious that the men are much more emotionally intelligent then the women. Especially when there is cheating involved. 

So you shouldn't generalize. The point is no one is a mind reader. It is generally a good idea to tell your SO what you need in a relationship. The problem is when you need to tell them over and over.


----------



## Andy1001

katiecrna said:


> I unfortunelty agree with this. I think us women think men are better than they actually are. They are just men. And I had to come to the realization... what my husband should do vs what he will do.
> 
> Yea they should be attentive. They should notice the small things. They should take initiative and help out. They should be able to comfort us and show us emotion. Blah blah blah. The reality is many times... they don't. It's not natural to them or in their DNA or something.
> 
> Men are sometimes like children. You need to tell them what to do. They wait for their mommy (aka wife) to pick up after them and tell them what to do. And this notion is reflected when men take their socks off and leave them on the floor. Or take their dish and put it on the counter. They wait for their mommy wife to take care of it for them. Or when they ask you where the (fill in the blank ) is.


Frankly I thought you were going to slate me for my last post.Look,I'm a smart guy,I have a high iq,my own business,my own house and I have lived on my own for years.Because I can't tell that my gf really did want an ice cream when I asked her and she said no or when I offered her the last chicken wing and when she refused it and I ate it does that make me a bad guy.If I don't hand wash dishes but put them in the dishwasher,is that really the end of civilisation as we know it.This is what I mean when I say spell it out and say what you mean don't beat around the bush.


----------



## sokillme

flyhigher said:


> I did make an effort to acknowledge when he attempts improvement. My H has anxiety and depression, and I am very aware of the difficulties those present. It's hard for him to make a simple phone call about something simple; say, phoning the school to tell them my daughter won't be there today. I've discussed his mental issues in IC very thoroughly, I've read books and have gained some wonderful tips on how to best support him. I think he would agree that I'm more than patient in this area. When I can see he's pushing himself to help me; I am very aware to say thank you and tell him how much I appreciate it. Unfortunately, his mental anxieties can lead to long periods of not leaving the house, not bathing, not cleaning up after himself. Those are harder to handle for me, as I'm a naturally social person.
> 
> 
> 
> I work full time. H stays home with out 2year old. He cooks and "cleans" lol. I do my very very best to over look the mess that I really think SHOULDN'T be there with one parent staying home.. but when/if I say anything, he takes things to heart and gets offended easily and is very sensitive. I've started saying things like, "What is a better way for me to phrase that?" when he gets offended if I ask him to clean up the kitchen today... things like that. But he'l just say, "Its not that bad!" ... but it definitely is that bad. Haha.
> We are pretty broke right now. It's not looking good.. we may have to down size. He just started mentioning getting a part time job to help out. I'm not too excited though.. him saying is a lot different to him doing.
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate what you're saying here. I'd like to be clear that I am not expecting marriage to be romantic every day, or for the butterflies to sing me songs in the morning. I'm a very realistic person. I think what I was trying to ask was, how unhappy is enough to leave. The truth is, yes, I could stay with my husband and live a long life with him; but I will always live in a state of wonder... would I have been better off without him? Has he been pulling me down all this time? Is this really what my life has become? I dont want to look back in regret. My H and I are very different. Yes, I love him; he's a good man.. but I find myself enjoying his company less because we are growing in different directions.
> 
> 
> 
> In the earlier years of our marriage, we would spend a lot of time taking longs walks, or drives, and discussing life. We talks a lot about dreams and futures. He opened up to me about his anxieties and depression, and I opened up about my childhood and parents. We got deep and I felt connected to him. Now, when I try to bring things like that up, he blocks me with, "I'm fine." "I don't want to talk about it." or "I just want to game (video games) a little bit, and than we'll talk" and than he'll go to bed before we can chat. When I make a point of having a conversation, and make him sit down to talk... I get eye rolls and sighs and the conversation feels forced and unnatural and cheap. It's not connection. I've mentioned this struggle before, and he said, "What do you mean, we're connecting right now!!" He simply doesn't understand what I mean.
> 
> 
> 
> I also appreciate this, because this WAS me at one point. I wanted him to read my mind, and know me so well that I didn't have to explain too much. I know different now. My IC has helped me with this and I am very clear with my H, beacuse I know he cannot read my mind.
> I've asked for more sex. He says, "yeah, we should get on that" .. and than nothing changes. I've asked for connection and date nights, he always makes it seem like a hassel; I've even said, "When you sigh and roll you're eyes, it makes me feel like a date night with me is a hassel." He'll respond, "Sorry. It's not" .. most of the time, I feel like I'm dragging him around because he doesnt actually WANT to do anything.. which sucks, because I love doing things.
> 
> When he and I met, he made himself seem way more social than he is. I only started to see the truth of his anxieties and depression once I was already pregnant. There is a part of me that feels "tricked"... he told me he had lots of friends, and partied (this was in college), loved to travel and do new things. All of this... is not at all true. He also told me he wasn't a virgin; something I straight up asked him. I found out 4 years after being together, that he was. That hurt me; but he said he was embarrassed and didn't want to admit it. I could understand that. We have sex about 1 or 2 a month.. he will not discuss our sex life with me. I've tried, trust me. He shuts right down. It's frustrating.
> 
> Honestly, I do try to communicate with my H. I haven't mentioned my thought recently because I'm trying to get a clear idea of what I want and expect before I bring it to him. Bringing it to him at this point will cause his stress and anxiety, and no good will come from it.
> We were in a fragile state last year... I committed to IC, but he never attended his. We never went to MC; because I didn't feel the committment from him. He says, "Therapy doesn't work for me"
> 
> I can't come on for the rest of the night, but I'll check in in the morning for more.
> 
> Thanks again for your responses.


Just an FYI to you and other posters, this should have been your lead, then the thread would have been very different. You will get much better advice. Also you should be as blunt with your husband. His depression isn't an excuse for being an ass. If he is too depressed to wash then he shouldn't be married he should be institutionalized. You husband needs to grow up. I say give him an ultimatum and then 6 months. Start with basic grooming.


----------



## arbitrator

*From someone who was summarily and deceptively pushed out of the door due to my RSXW's covert infidelity that I didn't have the first damned clue about, and not ever having to set eyes again on either her lawbreaking, convict, tatted, thuggish, dopehead kids ~ or her ~ well let's just say that it's almost comparable to having endless manna from heaven!*


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## katiecrna

If your this unhappy or unsure of your marriage than separate. Legally separate and get space from him.


----------



## TaDor

I was going to say... what others said "give examples" and sokillme already took care of my response 

A bit snippet:


> "We have sex about 1 or 2 a month.. he will not discuss our sex life with me. I've tried, trust me. He shuts right down. It's frustrating".


 How old are you two?
I know people have this rather silly hangup about sex... but geez, you got some years under your belt, you have kids. Talking about sex shouldn't be a challenge.

BTW: I always recommend to people, anyone - that they should date/marry for 4~5 years before kids. It helps with bonding and you don't miss the freedom of being able to go out and "PARTY" or do anything else when you want to or need to. That's like... Want to do something, get toddler dressed. Want to go out? Need a babysitter... want to be out all night and come back the next afternoon - uh... parents/grandparents, if you have them. Want to go to Burningman for 10 days - uh...

I also agree with sokillme. Give him an ultimatum. He need to read, he needs to do... or the marriage is over. You want him to be a more active role in your marriage. Give him options.
1 - divorce, separate... he'll need to get a job.
2 - Get his act together, learn more about sex... learn how to talk. Maybe see if he is co-dependent. locate a local CODA group is there is any.
3 - Open the marriage up (which will likely result in you leaving your husband anyway). Thus, he becomes the live-in babysitter for you to go out - meet other guys and have your needs met.
Why I say bring this up? To see his reaction and to get him to do something... either he says "okay" or "uh... I don't like that idea". That may get him off is ass.

For many, open relationships work... I doubt it here. May let him know... that he needs someone else more like him or something. Too early to know, and you need to give him his final chance to do something. That you're not going to spend the rest of your life that way. Especially if you both are still in your 20s.


----------



## MEM2020

I would like to point out that the final line item below relates to something called geospatial memory. 

Gender wise women appear to have far better geospatial memory than men. Personally - my recall of conversations is far better than M2's. 





katiecrna said:


> I unfortunelty agree with this. I think us women think men are better than they actually are. They are just men. And I had to come to the realization... what my husband should do vs what he will do.
> 
> Yea they should be attentive. They should notice the small things. They should take initiative and help out. They should be able to comfort us and show us emotion. Blah blah blah. The reality is many times... they don't. It's not natural to them or in their DNA or something.
> 
> Men are sometimes like children. You need to tell them what to do. They wait for their mommy (aka wife) to pick up after them and tell them what to do. And this notion is reflected when men take their socks off and leave them on the floor. Or take their dish and put it on the counter. They wait for their mommy wife to take care of it for them. Or when they ask you where the (fill in the blank ) is.


----------



## MovingForward

flyhigher said:


> I read a lot of posts about women who fell out of love with their husbands; or their husbands fell out of love with their wives. It seems there is always inner conflict on "should I leave, or should I stay?"
> 
> I'd like to ask the question... for those of you who left; were you happy with that choice? Did you ever regret it?
> 
> For those that stayed... are you glad you stuck it out? Was the pain worth the regained love? Or do you wish you would have left a long time ago?
> 
> Just curious; I wish I had a more experienced married friend to seek advice and experience from in my life; but all my friends are young(like me; 27) and/or not married yet. I was one of the first to be married, and often wish I could get advice from an older married woman.
> 
> I wonder if my expectations for marriage are unreal? Is it even realistic to feel in love with your husband.. am I romanticizing marriage? Am I seeking greener grass, when really, this is as green as it gets. I expect hard times, and I know that not everything is flowers and butterflies; I'm not expecting perfection from relationships... but the dead-love feeling is real in my marriage.. and I can't help but be disappointed. (together 6 years; 2 kids)
> 
> I'm craving more from marriage; from love; from life.... but, maybe I"m just expecting too much and dreaming of fairy tales that don't exist.
> 
> I guess I want to know... is it NORMAL to feel out of love with your husband? To view him as a friend.. a parenting partner.. a convenience? He claims that he's so in love with me still; and I can see how he tries to show it. I've looked into a lot of things to help out; the 5 love languages was a big one. We speak love VERY differently, and the things he does for me, are not my love language. I miss connection. I miss conversation. I miss heart-to-hearts, and soul searching. I miss intimacy that lasts longer than the sex does. I miss WANTING him. I miss being wanted. I miss the love.
> 
> It's occurred to me that I'm just expecting too much. Any thoughts here?


You sound like you are in a similar place to my wife, she told me great dad, provider, good person etc but not in love with me anymore and doesn't miss me when I am gone and she feels like that's not how its supposed to be. We got married fast and young, long distance relationship for a year then kids as soon as we moved in together.

Have you been to MC? Maybe your husbands wants all the same things and you have a wall between you that can be pulled down and give you both what you need out of the relationship, I would have loved the chance to be closer to my wife again.


----------



## flyhigher

TaDor said:


> I was going to say... what others said "give examples" and sokillme already took care of my response
> 
> A bit snippet: How old are you two?
> I know people have this rather silly hangup about sex... but geez, you got some years under your belt, you have kids. Talking about sex shouldn't be a challenge.
> 
> BTW: I always recommend to people, anyone - that they should date/marry for 4~5 years before kids. It helps with bonding and you don't miss the freedom of being able to go out and "PARTY" or do anything else when you want to or need to. That's like... Want to do something, get toddler dressed. Want to go out? Need a babysitter... want to be out all night and come back the next afternoon - uh... parents/grandparents, if you have them. Want to go to Burningman for 10 days - uh...
> 
> I also agree with sokillme. Give him an ultimatum. He need to read, he needs to do... or the marriage is over. You want him to be a more active role in your marriage. Give him options.
> 1 - divorce, separate... he'll need to get a job.
> 2 - Get his act together, learn more about sex... learn how to talk. Maybe see if he is co-dependent. locate a local CODA group is there is any.
> 3 - Open the marriage up (which will likely result in you leaving your husband anyway). Thus, he becomes the live-in babysitter for you to go out - meet other guys and have your needs met.
> Why I say bring this up? To see his reaction and to get him to do something... either he says "okay" or "uh... I don't like that idea". That may get him off is ass.
> 
> For many, open relationships work... I doubt it here. May let him know... that he needs someone else more like him or something. Too early to know, and you need to give him his final chance to do something. That you're not going to spend the rest of your life that way. Especially if you both are still in your 20s.



I am 27; H is 38. 

He has always had a hard time talking openly about sex. I've tried everything I know how; I've approached the subject ever so gently, I've tried DOING instead of talking... I've explained to him, "I'm your wife; we need to be able to discuss sex and intimacy on deep levels. You dont have to be embarrassed with me.. I love you and I WANT to please you." ... he usually just says, "I like things the way they are." 

I've asked him about fantasies but he stays closed lipped ... if I push it enough, he says he likes Asian women; which, I'm not.. So I don't feel there's a ton I can do there. And he wont give me anything else.. I've kind of given up on that front.

To get SUPER personal... last time we almost split up; in an act of desperation, he started sexting me while I was at work. He got quite detailed and dirty, and I loved it. I ate it up and responded positively. I had made plans previously that week to have dinner with a girl friend, and we continued the flirting and dirty texting all the way through my dinner. Now BECAUSE he and I were on the verge of a break up, I didn't know how to take these, I ended up having too many glasses of wine with my friend.. But by the time I got home, I was a drunk, hot mess, and we had amazing sex! He went down on me, got dominant with me, it was incredible.

However, also because I was drunk.. I started crying after (I know, baaad lol) and explained that I was hurt because he just showed me that he CAN be that seductive, sexy man... He just WON'T... He got annoyed with me for crying; which, I get.. I kind of ruined the mood; however, I still had a point. I asked where this behaviour came from and he said, "I just wanted you to remember me in a positive light"

We were able to get things started back up between us (not just because of that sex) and than the sex went right back down again. I've tried sexting him since, and sending him pictures but he responds with, "haha" or "that sounds nice" or "nice" and I eventually stop because he just doesnt seem into it; he doesn't seem into ME. My advances aren't taken well; and honestly, at this point, I'm not that interested in being intimate with him anyway. So I dont bother.

He wants to have another baby, so he'll sleep with me once or twice a month; saying things like, "maybe your pregnant now!"... I feel like he's only sleeping with me so he can get me pregnant. It's not a super loving feeling.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Um, if things are messed up between you, having a baby is THE LAST THING you should do!!


----------



## quin

My first marriage was a mistake. We married at 18 because I was pregnant, divorced by 20. We barely even dated before marrying. I will say that we really tried, as much as teenagers in our circumstance could. Neither of us were happy, but he was much more unhappy than I was. He was a good guy, even then. If I told him to stay, he likely would have. I don't know if he would have stayed forever, but he would have stayed longer. He was willing to be unhappy to do what society made him believe was the right thing. 

The aftermath of the divorce was really hard. Learning to co-parent, watching him date again (very quickly), losing time with my daughter, losing holidays with my daughter, watching him re-marry and create a new family. I stayed single for a long time. 

I don't regret it at all, and I don't think I ever really have. The marriage wasn't right and we were not happy. 

My second marriage... that's a whole other ballgame that is still in the works.


----------



## flyhigher

I have decided to leave my husband.

It's taken me a while, but I'm very strong in this decision. We haven't hugged/kissed/showed any kind of affection for over a month now. Last night, he asked if we could have sex, I tried to get out of it.. but the kids were at their grandmas house and I had no good excuse to not and so we did; I felt awful about it. Kissing him was like kissing a stranger; sex with him was empty. I took a hot, hot shower afterwards and cried. 

I'm just not in love with him anymore.

My house is going up for sale in two weeks, and when we sell (which will happen fast because of where we live) I will tell him that I'm going to be getting my own place. I'm choosing to wait that long, because if I tell him before we move, he may not follow through with the sale. So for now, I'm going through the motions to get to where I need to be before breaking the news. 

He's going to be distraught, but I don't think he'll be surprised. I'm going to offer to help him find an apartment or house, and split the money from the house sale with him 50/50. He can do with that as he chooses.

He hasn't worked in about a year, so I'm going to offer to pay him the monthly baby bonus plus $500/month for the first 6 months.. depending on what his rent will be in the new place. I don't know if he'll take it... but I'm going to offer it.

I am doing this so that he has a chance to continue to be in my children's lives. He's a great father, and I'm hoping for shared custody with him. I do not wish my children to grow up without their father present.
H suffers from depression and anxiety; so this is going to be THAT MUCH worse for him. If I leave him to figure it out; he will run back to his mommy, 2 hours north from me, swim in his depression, and my kids will only see him every other weekend.

He may end up doing all that anyway... I"m not sure.. it will depend how he takes it.

I'm really nervous about telling him. But I'm ready. After last night, there is no going back. Thinking about it the relationship now, I can see how it all happened; I can see where I crossed the line from caring and trying... to being done completely. 

This is going to be the hardest thing I will ever have to do.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Well...congrats on coming to a decision, hurdle #1 down. If he starts trying to get you to look at houses, you may have to come out with it though. You dont want to get too far into the process. Get a plan in place while you are waiting for the house to sell otherwise. Best of luck to you and keep posting so we can offer support.


----------



## WorkingWife

Steve1000 said:


> I don't think that you're expecting too much. * However, be sure that you spouse knows how unhappy you are.*


This ^^^. It's very common for the wife to feel unhappy and out of love because she is being neglected. However, the husband doesn't "get it" until she leaves. Then he is totally blind sided.

I would read the book His Needs Her Needs and see if it speaks to you. If so, try to get your husband to read it too. I believe you can have a fulfilling marriage but it requires effort from both sides, and that commonly slips especially after children are born. 

https://www.amazon.com/His-Needs-Her-Building-Affair-Proof/dp/0800744233


----------



## flyhigher

3Xnocharm said:


> Well...congrats on coming to a decision, hurdle #1 down. If he starts trying to get you to look at houses, you may have to come out with it though. You dont want to get too far into the process. Get a plan in place while you are waiting for the house to sell otherwise. Best of luck to you and keep posting so we can offer support.


Thank you. I will keep posting.. the support here is helpful; even when I need to hear I'm being an ass or something. Ha. 

No one in my life (except 1 girl friend of mine) knows about any of my plans at this point; I'm trying to keep it quiet until at least H knows. 

When we sell the house, the plan was to rent for a while anyway (to build my credit back up) so I don't expect too much house hunting to happen. So far, he's been very minimally involved in the process, but I do know I may have to tell him sooner than later. I'm thinking that through right now, and preparing myself for it.

I dont want to be hurtful towards him. I think I'm going to cling to the "I don't see a future for us anymore" line and try not to bash him too much. He's going to ask "WHY" .. that will be hard to answer without getting into specifics. We'll see...

Thank you for the support, again.


----------



## MovingForward

WorkingWife said:


> This ^^^. It's very common for the wife to feel unhappy and out of love because she is being neglected. However, the husband doesn't "get it" until she leaves. Then he is totally blind sided.
> 
> I would read the book His Needs Her Needs and see if it speaks to you. If so, try to get your husband to read it too. I believe you can have a fulfilling marriage but it requires effort from both sides, and that commonly slips especially after children are born.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/His-Needs-Her-Building-Affair-Proof/dp/0800744233


I was/am in your husbands side of things, was never really told and still don't know exactly what it is my W wants. She has told me she has tried so hard and done everything to 'Save' our marriage but I haven't seen it and even now while we are in the D proceedings the communication is still not coming through clear, it seems to me that Men and Woman receive and broadcast communication on a complete different frequency. :smile2:

Anyway not being a smart ass just wanted to comment my POV.

Good luck with whatever you do.


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## flyhigher

WorkingWife said:


> This ^^^. It's very common for the wife to feel unhappy and out of love because she is being neglected. However, the husband doesn't "get it" until she leaves. Then he is totally blind sided.


I appreciate what you're saying here. I've told him over and over in last 2-3 years how unhappy I am. It often comes with false promises and a "this is just what marriage is like" attitude. I'm done asking for change.. I'm going to take charge now.

We almost separated last year, and I agreed to give it another shot. He told me he'd go into counselling, become more socially active, be a "better sport" (he's very negative and miserable in general) All of which hasn't happened. I started IC around that time, and he never went to his.. he just wants me to stop being unhappy and just accept that this is life.

I refuse to accept that this will be my life.


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## MovingForward

flyhigher said:


> I appreciate what you're saying here. I've told him over and over in last 2-3 years how unhappy I am. It often comes with false promises and a "this is just what marriage is like" attitude. I'm done asking for change.. I'm going to take charge now.
> 
> We almost separated last year, and I agreed to give it another shot. He told me he'd go into counselling, become more socially active, be a "better sport" (he's very negative and miserable in general) All of which hasn't happened. I started IC around that time, and he never went to his.. he just wants me to stop being unhappy and just accept that this is life.
> 
> I refuse to accept that this will be my life.


It sounds like you are very certain which in one sense is a good thing it means you both know where you stand loud and clear.


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## lifeistooshort

Hon, you're 27 years old. You have an 11 years older husband who doesn't work, barely has sex with you and is miserable most of the time. 

What's in this for you? The answer is nothing. You have your whole life ahead of you.

He will beg and promise changes but also remember that you're his meal ticket. Without you he HAS to get a job, but if he can throw you enough crumbs to stick around he can continue to have you support him. He gets everything he needs while you get very little.

You don't have to dance around your reasons.....tell him you're done with this marriage.

If he promises to do better tell him it's over, you don't love him and that's it. He knows you're unhappy, he just may not know it's bad enough for you to dump him. But what does that say? Only that your happiness doesn't much matter as long as you're not going anywhere.

All you're ever going to get from this guy are enough crumbs to get you to stick around. Kind of like the person who does just enough at work to avoid getting fired.

And besides, the longer you let this go on the more you'll owe him in alimony when you finally do divorce.


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## flyhigher

lifeistooshort said:


> And besides, the longer you let this go on the more you'll owe him in alimony when you finally do divorce.


First of all; thank you!! You stated exactly how I'm seeing things. I am young, and I'm looking forward to my life, now that I've made this decision.

Secondly, I am horrified of alimony! I guess I should see a lawyer at some point, but I was hoping that paying him$500/month plus giving him the baby bonus (that's $1200ish/month) would kind of...go towards that? Will the court recognize that money? I dont know... is it stupid of me to offer that money first thing?

He doesnt seem like the type to do any serious court stuff... honestly, I think he's too lazy to go forward with any of that. For the D, I'll have to go all the leg work, for sure; which is fine.

I guess I should document ever penny I give him! And start keeping track of all that?


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## lifeistooshort

flyhigher said:


> First of all; thank you!! You stated exactly how I'm seeing things. I am young, and I'm looking forward to my life, now that I've made this decision.
> 
> Secondly, I am horrified of alimony! I guess I should see a lawyer at some point, but I was hoping that paying him$500/month plus giving him the baby bonus (that's $1200ish/month) would kind of...go towards that? Will the court recognize that money? I dont know... is it stupid of me to offer that money first thing?
> 
> He doesnt seem like the type to do any serious court stuff... honestly, I think he's too lazy to go forward with any of that. For the D, I'll have to go all the leg work, for sure; which is fine.
> 
> I guess I should document ever penny I give him! And start keeping track of all that?


Why don't you ask a lawyer what you'd have to give him before you offer him anything? 

It's only been a year since he's worked.....you might not owe that much. 

What kind of money do you make? Do you think he'll have full custody?


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## FeministInPink

flyhigher said:


> First of all; thank you!! You stated exactly how I'm seeing things. I am young, and I'm looking forward to my life, now that I've made this decision.
> 
> Secondly, I am horrified of alimony! I guess I should see a lawyer at some point, but I was hoping that paying him$500/month plus giving him the baby bonus (that's $1200ish/month) would kind of...go towards that? Will the court recognize that money? I dont know... is it stupid of me to offer that money first thing?
> 
> He doesnt seem like the type to do any serious court stuff... honestly, I think he's too lazy to go forward with any of that. For the D, I'll have to go all the leg work, for sure; which is fine.
> 
> I guess I should document ever penny I give him! And start keeping track of all that?


I wouldn't voluntarily give anything. If you're going to have to do all the leg work, and he's not willing to put in the effort, take advantage of that to your benefit. You may be able to get him to waive alimony.

YES, it is stupid of you to offer money first thing. TALK TO A LAWYER. Figure out how to best protect yourself and your assets. 

And why would you give him a baby bonus if you're likely going to bear the brunt of custody? (WTH is a baby bonus, anyway?)


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## FeministInPink

Oh, And I just read a bit of the other thread... use whatever profits from the house sale to pay off all that debt in your name (which is really marital debt, even if it's only in your name), and then split what's left, if anything is left over. Don't give him a single freaking penny before.


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## flyhigher

lifeistooshort said:


> Why don't you ask a lawyer what you'd have to give him before you offer him anything?
> 
> It's only been a year since he's worked.....you might not owe that much.
> 
> What kind of money do you make? Do you think he'll have full custody?


I make about 70-80k/year. 

He will never get full custody. I'm happy to do shared; but if he fights me, I will fight back, and I will win. If anyone gets full custody; it'll be me.

It sounds like I work a lot; but I'm usually home when my older kids are home from school. He only stays home with 1 of my kids (2 years old). I run my dad's family business; which will become mine within the next 2 years; I have a wonderful career set up, and he knows that. During our busy season, I work a bit more, but am still home by dinner time. I can always change my hours if I need too; I can also work from home, need be.
I have an awesome job that allows me that control; especially if the custody of my kids was in question.


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## 3Xnocharm

Dont offer ANYTHING until you talk to an attorney! Many states dont even DO alimony any more. And what is a baby bonus, and why are you willing to give it up?


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## flyhigher

Haha! Sorry; I'm in Canada. Baby bonus is money the government gives us for the kids.. a monthly payment.


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## lifeistooshort

Get rid of this leech before you get your family business.

He might be able to sue for some of it. 

Talk to a lawyer now.


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## flyhigher

I was considering giving him money to help him land on his feet... to give him the chance to find a job and secure himself in a place that's suitable for the kdis to visit. I don't want to totally screw him over; I'm not angry or seeking revenge. I just want the cleanest split I can get.


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## lifeistooshort

I can appreciate you wanting to help him out, but you have to realize that when he realizes it's over things could get very nasty.

He will see your generosity and desire for a clean break as weakness to exploit. Happens all the time. 

Find out what you'd likely have to give him, if anything, then offer a slightly better deal if he cooperates. If he decides to be an ass tell him you'll see him in court and everything is fair game.

That's what I did.....gave my ex a better deal then a court would give him and his lawyer told him to take it before I changed my mind.


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## FeministInPink

lifeistooshort said:


> I can appreciate you wanting to help him out, but you have to realize that when he realizes it's over things could get very nasty.
> 
> He will see your generosity and desire for a clean break as weakness to exploit. Happens all the time.
> 
> Find out what you'd likely have to give him, if anything, then offer a slightly better deal if he cooperates. If he decides to be an ass tell him you'll see him in court and everything is fair game.
> 
> That's what I did.....gave my ex a better deal then a court would give him and his lawyer told him to take it before I changed my mind.


All. Of. This.

People see generosity and kindness and they take advantage of it. People can get really mean--turn into someone you'd never recognize--when they realize that you're leaving. He could hire a ruthless pit bull attorney and try to take you for everything... or he could be completely apathetic and let you take care of everything. Prepare yourself for the first option, and hope for the latter.

The house--was it yours before you married? Paid off? If it's pre-marital property, that's yours in the divorce. I wouldn't recommend selling it to pay off debts that are marital debts and which he is also responsible for.

TALK TO A LAWYER. Before you sell the house. Before you file. Before you tell your H. Before you do ANYTHING. You have a lot at risk here, a lot that he could try to take away from you in a divorce. 




*TALK TO A LAWYER.*


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## WorkingWife

flyhigher said:


> I dont want to be hurtful towards him. I think I'm going to cling to the "I don't see a future for us anymore" line and try not to bash him too much. He's going to ask "WHY" .. that will be hard to answer without getting into specifics. We'll see...
> 
> Thank you for the support, again.


If you are 100% decided, this is a smart approach. If you stick to statements about yourself like "I feel" and "I don't feel" and what you said above, he will be very hurt but he can't really argue it. If you start giving him concrete reasons, he will be able to debate you and promise to change. Plus if those are negative things about him that he really can't change, it's only hurtful.


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## FeministInPink

flyhigher said:


> I was considering giving him money to help him land on his feet... to give him the chance to find a job and secure himself in a place that's suitable for the kdis to visit. I don't want to totally screw him over; I'm not angry or seeking revenge. I just want the cleanest split I can get.


He's a grown-ass man. He can figure it out for himself.


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## WorkingWife

flyhigher said:


> I appreciate what you're saying here. I've told him over and over in last 2-3 years how unhappy I am. It often comes with false promises and a "this is just what marriage is like" attitude. I'm done asking for change.. I'm going to take charge now.
> 
> We almost separated last year, and I agreed to give it another shot. He told me he'd go into counselling, become more socially active, be a "better sport" (he's very negative and miserable in general) All of which hasn't happened. I started IC around that time, and he never went to his.. he just wants me to stop being unhappy and just accept that this is life.
> 
> I refuse to accept that this will be my life.


Good for you. It will be hard but people survive this and go on to thrive. Based on this info, I think if you don't leave you will deeply regret it. From your first post I thought everything was fine other than you just didn't feel butterflies in your stomach when he entered the room.

BTW, regarding your original question, I have stayed in a similar marriage. One difference being that now that I have learned things about marriage through websites like this, I'm much stronger and better at asking for what I want and my husband is being a much better partner and I am feeling love come back into our relationship. But while I am happy with our relationship at this moment, I deeply regret staying. I believe I could have found someone much better suited for me had I understood relationships and what my needs really were and put the effort into it. I love my husband, but I could have loved someone else too. Now I'm in my early 50's with no children and no savings because I stuck it out.


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## flyhigher

FeministInPink said:


> The house--was it yours before you married? Paid off? If it's pre-marital property, that's yours in the divorce. I wouldn't recommend selling it to pay off debts that are marital debts and which he is also responsible for.
> 
> [/SIZE]


No, we bought the house together; its under both of our names. All of our debt is from when we were married; except for our school loans.. selling the house will pay off all of our debt, expect for those loans; which is awesome.
Plus, we should have enough left over to each take a healthy chunk of cash away.


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## flyhigher

I'm still in a limbo place; the house will be going up for sale in a couple of weeks; I've been keeping the peace at home, which, hasn't been too difficult, seeing as my STBX is super passive aggressive, so it's not like he ever confronts me about anything. He's been sleeping on the couch, though, so I know he's ticked off. When I ask him about it, he says, "I fell asleep watching tv" ... which, is obviously a lie. We haven't been affectionate or loving in a long time.. conversations are short and to the point. However, we're still polite; we say thank you and please, and acknowledge when things get done. Other than the sleeping on the couch part, he is acting as if things are fine. It's almost like he hasn't even noticed how distance things have become. It just seems... weird. 

I'm just here to vent about how weird and hard and uncomfortable this is. I so badly just want to tell him that it's over, but I have to wait for the right time. If I tell him before the house sells, he could stall the sale, and make it very difficult to move (we both equally own the home). 

I finally told my mother about my plans last night, the first person I've officially told. She was sad for me, but supportive. She's going to help me out in anyway I need; so I feel some relief there. She asked me if there was anyway to save the marriage, and I told her, "If I had to stay with him, I think I would cry for days. I would be so depressed knowing there was no way out." She understood. We talked about my kids; that's going to be the worst part of it... but they're young, only 3 & 4.. so, I'm hoping they'll be able to stay connected with both of us (mom and dad) and have a somewhat normal life.

This is such a weird period of all this.. I just want this part to be over. I knew it'd be brutal to get through.. and I'm not straying at all from my decision, but, it's hard. It's really hard. I hope things gets better.. soon..

Thanks for listening and your support everyone


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## lifeistooshort

I think you're doing the right thing by not telling him until the house sells.

Be thankful he's on the couch and not bothering you. That should actually tell you how much he values the relationship with you. 

He probably values the marriage because you're his meal ticket, so be prepared for begging and pleading when he realizes he's going to lose it.

He's comfortable throwing a tantrum on the couch because he doesn't think you're going anywhere.

You'll be much happier without him.


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## FeministInPink

lifeistooshort said:


> I think you're doing the right thing by not telling him until the house sells.
> 
> Be thankful he's on the couch and not bothering you. That should actually tell you how much he values the relationship with you.
> 
> He probably values the marriage because you're his meal ticket, so be prepared for begging and pleading when he realizes he's going to lose it.
> 
> He's comfortable throwing a tantrum on the couch because he doesn't think you're going anywhere.
> 
> You'll be much happier without him.


This ^^^. :iagree:


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## Lukedog

FeministInPink said:


> This ^^^. :iagree:


Agreed Again!

I have also stayed in a marriage that I shouldn't have. I'm still here now because of financial reasons. My husband is six years older than me, and while I know he loves me and adores me (it's like he put me on the pedestal and forgot about me), there is such a lack of communication, quality communication, respect, (lets not forget NO sex). I regret not getting out years ago when I wanted to, and I hate myself for being able to be sucked back with empty promises...for wishing and hoping things will change. They don't. They just seem to get worse. 

It is awkward and weird for you right now because you have made your decision and you know what you are going to do....and he doesn't. If you think he may get really mad when you tell him, maybe you could have a friend there when you do tell him, preferably male...perhaps your Dad or an uncle or cousin? That will maybe lessen his chances of trying to change your mind about it, and flying off the handle in anger.


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## flyhigher

Last night was pretty uncomfortable.

The house goes up for sale in a week; nd my realtor is sure it will be sold by the time the weekend is over; so things are moving forward.

Last night, though, STBX started asking why I've been so distant; he said, "it's like you've been mad at me since we had that bank meeting; I don't know what I did wrong. What did I do wrong?" I didn't say too much, I just nodded and acknowledged what he was saying. I didn't deny that there's been tension or a lack of communication, I jsut nodded. I was a bit surprised, and didn't want to say the wrong thing. We were just about to sit down for dinner, the kids were in th same room; I didn't want to get into it at that particular moment, so I jsut said, "Maybe let's not talk about this RIGHT now" and he replied, "I just miss you, that's all" .. I looked down and kind of slowly walked out of the room when his attention was to our daughter. I didn't talk about it again all night, but he was teary all through dinner.

I know I need to tell him soon; a part of me thinks, 'man, he's GOT to see it coming!!' But this morning, he was calling me sweetheart and stuff; even though he slept on the couch last night. 

I wanted to wait until the house sells, but maybe I'll have to tell him before than. When he comes at me with things like, "What did I do wrong?" How do I respond? When I actually say something I don't like, he retaliates with false promises to change, and excuses, or will turn it around to be my fault. OR he cries, and starts talking about how stupid he is. 

I'm getting scared, but I haven't changed my mind. 

When he asked me what he had done wrong, I was able to dodge the question.. but I won't be able to when i actually tell him I'm moving on. What can I say that keeps my point strong, but doesn't personally attack him, either... any suggestions?


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## GuyInColorado

flyhigher... time to tell him. Be gentle and firm. He knows it's coming but is scared. Explain the split of assets, parenting time, etc. Talk him into using one attorney and having a 100% amicable divorce. If it isn't amicable, it's going to cost you both $$$. 

You need to let everyone around you know. Once friends, family, and co-workers know, you'll feel free. 50% of them have been in your shoes and will know exactly what you're feeling. My co-workers that have been through divorce were the best.

When I separated, I just packed up my bags and left after a huge fight. I was lucky and had a furnished/rent free house provided by work to stay in for as long as I needed (still in it 16 months later). In following weeks, I'd meet her at Starbucks to talk about the kids, divorce stuff, and let the attorneys handle the rest.

Time is on your side. Time will fly. In 6 months from the split, you'll be so much happier. I'm 16 months out from separation and 11 months from divorce... finally buying a home with the woman of my dreams. I had young kids too (3/5) and they have adapted great. One will be 5 next month and the other 7 in September. I won't lie, I'm counting down the days until they are 16 and can drive whenever they want to either house. It's very hard keeping up with the parenting schedule and taking time off work when they are sick or school is off (I have a demanding job). But so far it's working and life is great once again.


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## FeministInPink

I would recommend telling him the truth. That you've been communicating to him for years now the problems in your relationship, and instead of being a partner and working towards viable solutions, he retaliates with false promises to change (but never actually changes), excuses (instead of taking ownership of his contribution to the problem), and/or blameshifting (which is a form of emotional manipulation and abuse), and that you have reached your limit and that you are done.

He does see this coming; it's why he's acting like this. He's grasping at straws at this point. 

You need to tell him soon. This isn't fair to either of you.


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## flyhigher

Yeah. thank you.. I know you're both right. UGH. this is SO hard... but, i've gotta rip off the band aid.

Thank you! I hope my words flow nicely with him, he's so sensitive. 
Tonight, I'll tell him once kids are in bed. <3 pray for me!! ha!


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## ResignedWife

GuyInColorado said:


> You need to let everyone around you know. Once friends, family, and co-workers know, you'll feel free. 50% of them have been in your shoes and will know exactly what you're feeling. My co-workers that have been through divorce were the best.


I agree with this. Back in January when my husband and I finally decided to separate, I had two friends at work who were invaluable. One was a divorced woman, and the other was a child of divorce. Talking when them allowed me to have two perspectives on what might happen going forward, and they are great about letting me bounce my thoughts off them as well. There is DEFINITELY freedom in having someone you can talk to about what you are going through.


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## Openminded

While it's definitely a very hard conversation to have, it feels much better emotionally when it's out there. 

He knows something's wrong so it's time to completely get on the same page. He's probably going to take it badly and cry a lot and beg you to reconsider and promise he'll change (my husband did) but don't let it get to you (I did let it get to me the first time but not the second time because nothing did change in the decades between the first time and the second time).


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## chillymorn69

happiness comes from with in.

I hope you find it.


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## flyhigher

chillymorn69 said:


> happiness comes from with in.
> 
> I hope you find it.


I have found it. He hasn't.. I hope he does. <3


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## FeministInPink

flyhigher said:


> Yeah. thank you.. I know you're both right. UGH. this is SO hard... but, i've gotta rip off the band aid.
> 
> Thank you! I hope my words flow nicely with him, he's so sensitive.
> Tonight, I'll tell him once kids are in bed. <3 pray for me!! ha!


Good luck. Be strong.


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## flyhigher

I talked to him last night; he actually took things fairly well. He didn't seem surprised... he was upset, and cried a bit, asked me what he had done wrong. All in all, I'm happy with the way things went. I spoke mostly about my own feelings, and agreed to disagree with some things. He acknowledged that he is terrible with communicating, and actually apologized for not making me feel more loved in our relationship.

We finished the conversation with a lot of "I'm sorry's"and "I still care about you" but I was firm about my decision. I went for a drive afterwards, because I was uncomfortable seeing him cry. and he understood. I can tell he's very resentful and angry, but he's choosing not to express it. This morning, we were actually quite pleasant, and managed the kids okay. He slept on the couch, but I didn't mention it. Our daughter ran a high fever last night, so she's staying home from school today; we were able to handle that together easily.

He's made a couple sly comments this morning.. I can tell he's bitter; I think mostly because of the financial stuff. He's said things like, "well, you'll be living in your new house, and I'll have to rent some basement out" .. which, he's not wrong; but I don't know how to help that; we're splitting the money from the house, so he'll have a decent down payment for a house. He just needs to get some time with a job under his belt before he can get approved. He said he'd like to talk details once he's had some time to think through his own plan; i agreed that that was fair.

We have some time, as the house stuff still needs to go through. So... yeah! It's out there, at least! Which feels good.

I'm going to walk on eggshells for a couple months, but, it'll be worth it. Haha! I hope anyways!!!

Thanks for everyone's support!


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## 3Xnocharm

Well I am glad you got it out there and were able to talk. Dont let yourself feel guilty over his little pity party, he is a grown man and will have to take care of his own crap. Hopefully you two can continue to be amicable.


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## bkyln309

My only regret is I waited so long for divorce. I should have divorced him at year 5 but we worked on things. I regret giving him 10 more years of my life


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## cc48kel

That's wonderful that you told him and it's all out!! Your too young to be stuck in a marriage like that.. And don't offer anything more than the lawyer suggest. Best wishes! : )


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## FeministInPink

3Xnocharm said:


> Well I am glad you got it out there and were able to talk. Dont let yourself feel guilty over his little pity party, he is a grown man and will have to take care of his own crap. Hopefully you two can continue to be amicable.


I agree with 3X. I'm glad you finally had the talk with him.

He's going to keep up this crap, trying to make you feel bad. I'm not surprised, given what you've told us of his prior behavior in the marriage. He's passive aggressive. Don't let him make you feel bad, and if he goes on a bent like this, leave the room. You don't have to listen to his guilt trips. He's going to try to make you listen, and he'll think that you SHOULD, because from his perspective, this is your fault, you're the one making the choice to end the marriage... but what he doesn't understand, and will likely never understand, that it was his behavior and inaction that pushed you to this point. Make no mistake, he blames you, and he will try to make you pay, emotionally. But he can only extract that payment from you if you willingly give it to him. Don't allow him to do that to you. You don't owe him any emotional currency.


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## Benaboo

flyhigher said:


> I did make an effort to acknowledge when he attempts improvement. My H has anxiety and depression, and I am very aware of the difficulties those present. It's hard for him to make a simple phone call about something simple; say, phoning the school to tell them my daughter won't be there today. I've discussed his mental issues in IC very thoroughly, I've read books and have gained some wonderful tips on how to best support him. I think he would agree that I'm more than patient in this area. When I can see he's pushing himself to help me; I am very aware to say thank you and tell him how much I appreciate it. Unfortunately, his mental anxieties can lead to long periods of not leaving the house, not bathing, not cleaning up after himself. Those are harder to handle for me, as I'm a naturally social person.
> ...
> In the earlier years of our marriage, we would spend a lot of time taking longs walks, or drives, and discussing life. We talks a lot about dreams and futures. He opened up to me about his anxieties and depression, and I opened up about my childhood and parents. We got deep and I felt connected to him. Now, when I try to bring things like that up, he blocks me with, "I'm fine." "I don't want to talk about it." or "I just want to game (video games) a little bit, and than we'll talk" and than he'll go to bed before we can chat. When I make a point of having a conversation, and make him sit down to talk... I get eye rolls and sighs and the conversation feels forced and unnatural and cheap. It's not connection. I've mentioned this struggle before, and he said, "What do you mean, we're connecting right now!!" He simply doesn't understand what I mean.
> ...
> I also appreciate this, because this WAS me at one point. I wanted him to read my mind, and know me so well that I didn't have to explain too much. I know different now. My IC has helped me with this and I am very clear with my H, beacuse I know he cannot read my mind.
> I've asked for more sex. He says, "yeah, we should get on that" .. and than nothing changes. I've asked for connection and date nights, he always makes it seem like a hassel; I've even said, "When you sigh and roll you're eyes, it makes me feel like a date night with me is a hassel." He'll respond, "Sorry. It's not" .. most of the time, I feel like I'm dragging him around because he doesnt actually WANT to do anything.. which sucks, because I love doing things.
> 
> When he and I met, he made himself seem way more social than he is. I only started to see the truth of his anxieties and depression once I was already pregnant. There is a part of me that feels "tricked"... he told me he had lots of friends, and partied (this was in college), loved to travel and do new things. All of this... is not at all true. He also told me he wasn't a virgin; something I straight up asked him. I found out 4 years after being together, that he was. That hurt me; but he said he was embarrassed and didn't want to admit it. I could understand that. We have sex about 1 or 2 a month.. he will not discuss our sex life with me. I've tried, trust me. He shuts right down. It's frustrating.


On the "being tricked" thing. I sound a lot like your H, I suffer from anxiety and depression and it's a constant battle. However, I am responsible for my own mental health, and while my wife understands what I go through, I have to make sure my mental issues have a minimal impact on the household. Again, it's something I struggle with every day. 

I had lots of friends in college and partied and was social. I think it was easier in those days. As you get older and the anxiety becomes more pronounced, it is VERY easy to start walling yourself off from experiences that you believe could be triggers for your anxiety in particular - if you had a panic attack while at a concert, you might be less inclined to go to a concert. If you know your area of comfort is home, you might just want to chill out more and stay home instead of going out. It's easier. Sometimes making an effort to be social seems near impossible. I relate to having issues with phone conversations. It's pure agony for me sometimes. 

I think the "tricked" thing isn't so much he tricked you, it's that he fell for you, and at some point you either have to make this HERCULEAN effort to get out there and push yourself and do things, or you're going to spend the rest of your life alone. When you're in the throes of love, you think you can sustain that effort - that perhaps you've just been waiting for a love like this to pull you out of whatever depths you normally live in. But then when the day-to-day of a relationship appears, it becomes impossible to keep that up, even if you have every intention of doing it.

This is not to excuse his behavior - you have to make an effort to have basic hygiene, and sometimes taking a shower and getting a haircut and shaving will lift your mood as well and make you feel more "competent" and less depressed. But I can tell you that if you have fallen out of love with him and regard him as a "friend" and maybe even a good parent, the effort you would expect from him in order for you to fall back in love is possibly not something he would ever be able to provide or sustain.

My wife cheated on me with her best friend (a woman) a few years ago, which led me here. Subsequent to that I discovered that I'm also asexual (which I never knew was a thing until a couple years ago, but it explained so much). So we have a complicated relationship where we're raising a young special needs child. She has learned a lot about me over the last two years from learning about him. She said it has given her a new appreciation into my struggles. 

Bottom line - I can't tell you what to do, but I do think if you can handle co-parenting and sharing visitation, that you should move on. It would only be fair to him and to you. I think you've been more than understanding, and it sounds like he's not willing to push himself any more than he already has. He's going to wake up one day and realize he needs to make some changes, or his life will be miserable and he will wall himself off from life more and more. That's the only thing that will change him - when he's miserable enough to seek help. He's comfortable with you. He needs to be uncomfortable. For you to be with him when he finds that discomfort will not be a good thing necessarily, and you will probably turn into a person who he feels is nagging him. 

Good luck.


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## flyhigher

Hi there,
I just thought I would give a bit of an update. Our house has sold and we're moving the first week of June; so it's coming up very fast. We're still living in the same house right now, and getting along okay. We are 100% broken up, and he only offers little guilt jabs here and there.. he's been sleeping on the couch, which I didn't force him to do; but I also don't mind. He was having a hard time accepting things.. especially when I put an offer on a new house. He wanted to come with me, and help me pick it out; he kept sendning me links online to houses and started talking about when we could go look at them. I had to be a bit harsh and remind him that this is my house this time.. not his.. and I will be picking it out, and buying it on my own. That wasn't easy to do.. he cried and was very emotional. But he heard me, and backed right off. The next day, I put an offer on my own place; my realtor was fantastic in reminding me that I'm not an awful person for following my heart. My offer was accepted that night, and all is set up. I move June 9th. I have never been so excited to move! It's beautiful home and I can just picture me and my kids there for years and years!

My STBX still doesnt have much of a plan together... every time I ask, he says, "I'll figure it out".. So I'm still unsure about that. He's been talking about packing and renting a truck... I have a feeling that he is just planning to come with me? Im still not sure how to navigate that. The house has a couple extra bedrooms in the basement, and technically he COULD stay there... for a bit... maybe until he gets a job?? But than.. sigh.. what if he doesnt get a job?! I'm still trying to figure out how to manage that. H'es definitely playing victim; he's not trying to fix the relationship or beg for me to stay (which is good), but he's not being productive about his future. He has a "i can't believe this is happening to me" attitude. I guess I get it... but I feel like, if the tables were turned, I'd be making a lot of plans right now to get on my feet!! I guess that's just how we defer though. He is refusing to talk about anything and I can tell he's holding back a lot of anger and pain; but.. I dont consider myself in a position to pressure him to communicate... so I don't press him. I tried pressing for years and I've learned it doesnt work.. that's why I'm leaving. So.. he's dwelling in a lot of tough feelings; not talking to anyone about it.. Sometimes I feel awful; sometimes I feel excited to get away from those negative vibes!!

We haven't told the kids yet. I know it needs to happen soon... I'm not sure how to do it; they are so young (6, 4 & 3) ... how much will they really understand? My daughter has noticed daddy sleeping on the couch.. but hasn't asked why or anything. She just said it more like an observation, "Daddy sleeps on the couch now" and that was that. The other two, haven't said a thing.

The other piece is our families... my parents and close friends know exactly what's going on. They are being supportive, even though they all really like STBX. They've always had a good relationship... they are more in the mindset of, "what a sad story" .. they like him, but understand why I'm leaving. My STBX is really embarrassed about the whole thing.. so he keeps asking me not to tell anyone yet. So, I've told my parents to pretend they dont know yet. I dont know why I'm going a long with this little game.. its weird, but I guess I just feel badly, so I'm trying to do what I can to make the transition easier for him. His mom doesn't know... he doesnt want to tell her; tbh, I don't want to either! She will flood both our emails with, "how could this be? what are you thinking?" .. she will come down really hard on him, and beg me to keep trying. She's a weird lady. So.. she doesn't know either...

We communicate about the kids nicely, and hang out as a family.. but there's no intimacy, no touching, nothing at all like that. very friend-ish... roommates... At this point, there's NO WAY I could go back to being romantic with him. no way! But, I can see us co-parenting nicely down the road.. which is comforting.

Anyway.. that's where we are now. I'm grabbing boxes this week and starting to pack things up; I'm sure that will bring a whole new mess of emotions.


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## flyhigher

Benaboo said:


> He's comfortable with you. He needs to be uncomfortable.
> 
> Good luck.


Thank you for this post!! The whole post was touching... but this line hit home to me. You're so right. I hope one day, he can see the deep love behind my actions... I'll always care about him, but I need to walk away from the relationship before me and my kids go down with him.


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## lifeistooshort

Whatever you do, do not let him stay with you. 

You will never get rid of him.

He's a grown man and will have to figure it out when you stop enabling him.


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## Satya

There's nothing wrong with saying firmly that he's not coming with you and it's his responsibility to figure out his own solution. 

Then leave him alone to go figure himself out or not.


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## 3Xnocharm

For the love of GOD, DO NOT let him come with you! He will NEVER EVER LEAVE! Ask him if he has his plans ironed out, while reminding him that he IS NOT coming with you! He is a grown adult, and needs to take responsibility for himself! Asking him is a reminder that it needs to be done only, not that you are there to help out in any way... you cannot do that, he needs to do this himself.

And by the way, big CONGRATS on your house!!


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## FeministInPink

He's asked you not to tell anyone and he's not making any clear plans because he's still hoping that you'll change your mind. He will leave it until the last minute and then ask if he can stay with you, playing that he's been trying but hasn't found anything yet.

I would tell him that the Marriott Residence has excellent weekly rates and their suites are very nice.

Do NOT, under ANY circumstances, let him stay with you. You will never get rid of him.

I know you're trying to be nice to him, but don't let his behavior control you or others. He's manipulating you. Tell him that you've told your family and your close friends, that they all know, and you're not going to pretend any longer. This will send a very clear message to him that you are not going to change your mind and that he needs to get his **** in order. 

And you guys need to plan to tell the kids. It's not far away. Are you planning on telling them once you get to the new house? That might be best...


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## Thestarsarefalling

Tough questions. I have also been reflecting on similar questions. 

1) It's easier to change your attitude than your behavior. If someone gets divorced they are probably not going to regret it. The mind likes to keep the attitude and behavior together. Once the deed is done then likely they will feel good about it. 

2) It's not a spouses job to fullfil you or make you happy. That is your job not some idealistic romance.

3) I do wonder if your expectations are realistic. Seems like men who are exciting and romantic tend to have commitment problems or can be narssistic.

4) Do you feel you could explain your reasons to your child someday when they are an adult and think it will make sense to them? 

That being said my own marriage is crumbling because my H can't seem to be happy with anything so he wondered off to OW. This is the second time now so what do I know?


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## 3Xnocharm

Thestarsarefalling said:


> T
> That being said my own marriage is crumbling because my H can't seem to be happy with anything so he wondered off to OW. This is the second time now so what do I know?


You divorce his cheating ass. Thats what you do. 

Also just because in this case the OP's husband didnt cheat, doesnt mean she doesnt have valid reasons for ending the marriage. She has perfectly valid, realistic expectations.


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## Ursula

Andy1001 said:


> When women realise that men are not mind readers everyone will be happier.
> If you want something done just ****in ask,don't expect us to guess.
> No,we shouldn't WANT to wash dishes.
> If we ask you do you want a pastry with your coffee a yes or no answer is the only one we will accept. Don't say no and then eat half of ours.
> If you want more sex just ask,really,just ask.
> YES it is your job to tell us what's bothering you because otherwise how the **** are we to know.


While I do agree that communication is key, and that telling a spouse our feelings is important, this doesn't always work. Some men (and some women for that matter) just don't "get" it.


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## FeministInPink

Ursula said:


> While I do agree that communication is key, and that telling a spouse our feelings is important, this doesn't always work. Some men (and some women for that matter) just don't "get" it.


I agree. I communicated over and over to my XH in very clear terms what I needed. He chose to ignore me. He didn't think I would actually leave or end the marriage, because he watched his mom and dad do the same thing, and his mom always came back.

When **** got real and I dragged his ass to counseling, making it clear that I wasn't going to put up with his BS anymore, he walked away and never looked back. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Ursula

FeministInPink said:


> I agree. I communicated over and over to my XH in very clear terms what I needed. He chose to ignore me. He didn't think I would actually leave or end the marriage, because he watched his mom and dad do the same thing, and his mom always came back.
> 
> When **** got real and I dragged his ass to counseling, making it clear that I wasn't going to put up with his BS anymore, he walked away and never looked back.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


I'm sorry to hear that FiP, but it sounds like someone you're better off without. My H is much the same way; I've told him what I need many times, and in some regards I haven't been heard. In other regards, he's come a LONG way though!


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## FeministInPink

Ursula said:


> I'm sorry to hear that FiP, but it sounds like someone you're better off without. My H is much the same way; I've told him what I need many times, and in some regards I haven't been heard. In other regards, he's come a LONG way though!


Nothing to be sorry about. I'm better off without him. I frequently say that my divorce was the most painful and traumatic experience I've ever had, and it was the best thing to ever happen to me. I usually bring in examples from my former marriage not because I'm still upset over them, but ti either illustrate a point or to show why I hold a certain opinion.

If your H has grown in other ways, there is still hope for him yet


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## Keenwa

flyhigher said:


> Thank you.. I don't feel I'm expecting too much either; but I've had a few people (including my H) say, "this is what most peoples' marriages look like! this is normal life!" And I can't help but thinking...... maybe I'm different than "normal" people.. ?? I mean, I don't think I am, but.. i think just our personalities and outlooks are different. Where he says, "yeah, this is good enough", I say, "there must be something more"...
> So, I'm not too sure. My H is a bit .. hm.. I dont know the word lol. He doesn't ever SEE me unhappy.. I have to tell him. And he becomes mroe attentive for a bit.. but than it falls back again, and I find it becomes a pattern of my having to keep saying, "I'm unhappy again... I'm unhappy again... I'm unhappy again" which totally sucks and makes me feel needy and ****ty.
> I'm trying to be happy ANYWAY; without him having to attend to my needs; and for the most part, I AM. but, that means I could miss out on a greater love; and I'd rather have the possibility, than admit defeat.
> 
> I say all this so easily here; but to his face, I shrivel up and am wrecked with guilt. It's so hard to hurt someone who loves you the best they can.



This sounds familiar to me. I left my 20 year marriage a month ago and I am so proud of myself and extremely happy with the decision. I miss my kids every other week and my dog, and that is hard. But I didn't leave before trying very hard. I had to know that I had tried to make it work. That video that was posted was very accurate and I take full responsibility for not having conveyed my needs to my H over the years. 4 years ago I told him I was done. He convinced me to go for MC, and I was always in IC. But he was just reacting to his fear and so the MC was a waste of time because ultimately I found out we have very different ideas about what a relationship is . He like your H was content with the status quo, i.e. lets' face it 90% of marriages are dull, unexciting, abusive, and people stay in them because they are too fearful to leave. So as long as we were doing better than the people around us, he seemed to think this was good. For me not so. However I will say this, I am glad I didn't leave 4 years ago because in the process of getting my own counselling and taking ownership for what I did to break this up, I have learned to respect him again, and like him again. So from a place of much greater clarity I was able to figure out that the marriage wasn't working because there was simply no relationship between us. Only a friendship which meant we were good co-parents, and roommates, and I realized and took responsibility for the fact that I deserve to feel loved and be in a relationship that is rewarding. I don't think I have a romantic ideal that everything will be hunky dory and that I'll sail off into the sunset with another guy, but rather be able to better communicate in the future that my needs are important and that relationships can be messy and rewarding at the same time. But if you're with someone who doesn't want to talk about anything, you can't ever get to the messy and rewarding bits because they are not willing to talk about anything except superficial things. One person can not hold up a marriage alone. It takes two people watering that garden every day, two people who will get their hands dirty and live into committing to make it work, not one. Sometimes one person is simply not capable of it because they are too disconnected from their feelings or not willing to feel anything, or they simply go to anger and resentment and can't acknowledge the other emotions at play.

My H would not listen to anything, and would not seek help unless in crisis. He wanted to seek counselling again when I told him 2 months ago we had to separate but had not done it for 3 years because he was too busy or whatever. He kept saying to "give him time". But he only sought to change things when he was pressed up against the wall. I can't be in a relationship with someone who is only driven by being catapulted into crisis mode by me and otherwise is happy to just keep "plugging along". A marriage is a car driven by two people, it is not a driver an a passenger. It's two drivers who sometimes take the wheel and sometimes sit back, but one person cannot always be driving that car.


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## Keenwa

Andy1001 said:


> When women realise that men are not mind readers everyone will be happier.
> If you want something done just ****in ask,don't expect us to guess.
> No,we shouldn't WANT to wash dishes.
> If we ask you do you want a pastry with your coffee a yes or no answer is the only one we will accept. Don't say no and then eat half of ours.
> If you want more sex just ask,really,just ask.
> YES it is your job to tell us what's bothering you because otherwise how the **** are we to know.


Ok sure, yes women need to communicate better and not assume their minds will be read. However men need to listen, they are not children who need to be told what to do, and if they want to live in a healthy happy relationship they need to take responsibility for it. Dishes are not a woman's job so a man should not be asked to do them. You eat, you wash dishes. If you want a pastry then order one, don't eat half of his, but he can also say "get your own flipping pastry"....absolutely. 

It goes both ways. Women are often far too elusive and assume their minds can be read and men are often too passive and not willing to talk to women about their feelings because it's a "woman thing". Somewhere in the middle there is happy balance and a happy relationship.


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## 4mywife

My husband emotionally cheated on me with a woman 20 years younger than him after 23 years of marriage. Instead of coming to me and telling me he was unhappy and we have a problem he chose to become involved with a women who lived 2300 kms away from us. Instead of talking to me he talked to her. And she put some pretty horrible ideas in his head about me. It got to the point where he asked her to marry him and then asked me for a divorce. 

They never slept together but it was cheating just the same. She destroyed my whole family as we have two children. I a stuck in a miserable situation and divorce is my only out. 

If you feel you cannot stay don't. Put your happiness first and do what is right for you.


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