# Finally read MMSL



## sinnister

*Finally read NMMNG*

Okay so I comment a bunch on other stories but never talk too much about my own. I am in a VERY sexless marriage and have done the dead twice....in 2012. I've tried pretty much everything but nothing changes.

I hate reading. HATE IT. Just not for me. I do it at work all day so it's not very relaxing in my down time. But I actually read NMMNG finally. Reason why I'm posting is because I don't know what to make of it.

I was taken aback at how accurate it was about some of it's diagnosis about people like me. I was raised by a strong single mother in humble circumstances. I had a bizarre early sex life mainly due to my involvement in sports constantly and my very strict mother. So basically I didnt have one despite having "girlfreinds".

I dont know if I have any compulsions...but I could definitely seeing them develop given my situation with marriage intimacy.

I see myself as a strong, confident, leader. The head of my family and household. But despite my love for sports, beer and most things man...I don't really hang out with guys. It just seems weird to me. I never really realized how this was a strange way to be until I read it in NMMNG.

The part about fear and shame really shook me. I didn't really agree with it pertaining to me until I really took a look at myself. I am NOT open about my desires with my wife. She is very conservative in the bedroom and I just repressed my desires after a while. It's driving me a little crazy. She had mentioned a few years ago that my "freakiness" was a problem for. So I just burried it.

I'm wondering if some more of the info in their pertains to me. I don't know how to move forward though now that I've come to some of these realizations. I'm sick of discussing intimacy with my wife. She's sick of me bringing it up. So I don't. I have no one to turn to and feel helpless to move forward. Our marriage is safe for now, but the way we're going is like driving at high speed down the highway in a snowstorm without a seatbelt. We're going to crash eventually and it's going to end badly.

I can see it but don't know how to move it forward. I also don't do a lot of my hobbies anymore. I can see it in her eyes that I turn her off by lack of physical activity. She married an athlete not the fat phock I am now. But some days no amount of painkillers can stop my knee pain...so I just veg and do nothing. I'm rambling now...but back on topic. 

What did you guys do to implement any changes as a result of what you found in this book? I should also mention that I have also been cheated on in a previous relationship. It was only university back then but it was heading towards marriage (for my part). Am I just too F'ed up to have what most dudes do? A woman who craves their schlong? (Yes I'm diffusing with some crass humour).

I should also note that me being the closet intellectual that I am I found some of MMSL a bit crazy.


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## pb76no

> I am in a VERY sexless marriage and have done the *dead *twice....in 2012


Very interesting Freudian slip as you probably meant to say deed, right?
MMSL is not the bible, but it sure rings true in a lot of places. I just took some basic steps with the MAP - exercise everyday, did some other things to get healthy, started projects I had put off, etc. Didn't accept the status quo, didn't fight about it, just refused to engage in some of the behaviors that relinquished my control in some areas. I couldn't believe the results in her approach to me, but it was definitely working.


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## FalconKing

I think you turn this around but it's going to be a long hard road. I think somewhere a long the way your wife de-prioritized you and then she didn't recognize the man you had become. And she wasn't sexually attracted to that man. You have some insight now. I would encourage to keep reading. 5 love languages, Love Busters, His and Her Needs, The Way of the Superior Man, and maybe some Calle Zorro books. Knowledge is power. And you have to become quite empowered to get out of this situation. Also, when you communicate with your wife try to be open and understanding and objective.


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## sinnister

Good advice. I will get my hands on the other reading material.

I just can't help but feel a little "soft" doing this stuff...ya know what I mean?


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## FalconKing

sinnister said:


> Good advice. I will get my hands on the other reading material.
> 
> I just can't help but feel a little "soft" doing this stuff...ya know what I mean?


Man I know exactly what you mean. You were an athlete and you probably are quite confident as a man. The problems you've had you've solved them physically or mentally. Emotional vulnerability can be seen as a weakness often times and as something as a distraction. Now you have to understand your wifes emotions. And that means a deep understanding of your own. You have to be "sensitive" to an extent but still be a confident and dominant man. I think you just have to think of it as enhancing you. Be clear and open about how you feel, even to yourself. But you need to confidence so that you know that even if you are open emotionally, you will not let anyone thoughtlessness hurt you. I'm all for a man keeping passion and romance in a relationship. It's one my biggest fears, if I marry.


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## sinnister

FalconKing said:


> Man I know exactly what you mean. You were an athlete and you probably are quite confident as a man. The problems you've had you've solved them physically or mentally. Emotional vulnerability can be seen as a weakness often times and as something as a distraction. Now you have to understand your wifes emotions. And that means a deep understanding of your own. You have to be "sensitive" to an extent but still be a confident and dominant man. I think you just have to think of it as enhancing you. Be clear and open about how you feel, even to yourself. But you need to confidence so that you know that even if you are open emotionally, you will not let anyone thoughtlessness hurt you. I'm all for a man keeping passion and romance in a relationship. It's one my biggest fears, if I marry.


You nailed it. I find myself ill-equipped and out of my realm dealing with these issues. I also feel sort of like a cry baby if that makes any sense since she has repeatedly refused to engage in meaningful dialogue. I'll put the suggested paths to improvement in motion and see how things shake out.


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## naga75

yes, the "being sensitive" part of it was (is lol) hard for me too.
never been one to wear my emotions on my sleeve, good or bad.
if i had problems, i just dealt with them.
the exercise for me was a big help.
especially since the wifey seemed weirdly aware that i was doing it for me, not for her.
the fixing stuff around the house is a big help.
i have always been handy, but now i start a project and finish it. once again, to give MYSELF an accomplishment to be proud of, instead of garnering my wifes approval and praise.
The BIG thing with me was the "fitness tests". my wife was CONSTANTLY doing that to me.
after i read the book, i basically shut it down. as in over. no mas.
and it worked. oh, the first few times she was like "WTF" and tried the same old same old, but after that didnt work she finally got it thru her head. and you know what? i feel like she actually RESPECTS me as her husband and the man of the house.
as another poster said, no its not the bible. but it is a VERY helpful tool that can be tweaked for your own situation.
my sex situation was nowhere neeeeeear as "bad" as yours. implementing the MAP and basically quitting taking the ridiculous sh!t my wife was pulling on me day in and day out has certainly increased the frequency and quality. thats for sure.


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## pb76no

Yea, the sh*&t tests are key. Knowing how to recognize them and how not to respond to them was huge for me.


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## uraha

FWIW, my two takeaways from MMSL:

1. The MAP is a lifestyle, not just a series of steps. I'll be doing the MAP until the day I die.

2. Courtship is a lifestyle, too. I can't afford to suffer the consequences of complacency again.


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## Ten_year_hubby

sinnister said:


> She is very conservative in the bedroom and I just repressed my desires after a while. It's driving me a little crazy. She had mentioned a few years ago that my "freakiness" was a problem for. So I just burried it.
> 
> I'm sick of discussing intimacy with my wife. She's sick of me bringing it up. So I don't.
> 
> don't know how to move it forward


I haven't read the book, but I can say that emotional intimacy requires verbal interaction and "repressing", "burying", and being "sick of discussing" is not going to move things forward.

For a number of reasons, I had fallen into the trap you describe but today I have a new strategy. For starters, I let my wife own her problems. If she has a problem with my needs and desires and expectations, I'll be happy to make an appointment, drive her over to counseling, wait for her, sit with her or whatever she needs to support her while we work through her problems.

Likewise with her being sick of my bringing up intimacy. I'm sorry for her, but too bad. She can do what I ask or she can talk about it or she/we can go to counseling. Last time we went down the talking path, I expressed to her I was A-OK with the concept of "not doing something our partner wants because we don't want to/don't feel like it" as a basis for our relationship. I got up out of bed, went downstairs and opened myself a beer and was almost overjoyed with all the thoughts of all the stuff I wasn't going to have to do any more because I didn't want to. However, that joy was short lived because I never heard "I don't want to" since then.


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## naga75

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I expressed to her I was A-OK with the concept of "not doing something our partner wants because we don't want to/don't feel like it" as a basis for our relationship. I got up out of bed, opened myself a beer and was almost overjoyed with all the thought of all the stuff I wasn't going to have to do any more because I didn't want to. However, that joy was short lived because I never heard "I don't want to" since then.


:smthumbup:
"almost overjoyed with the thought" man that is classic


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## sinnister

Yup. It's got to be about communicating but doing it the right way. I've got to stop getting so frustrated when the subject eventually does arise and just be cool and calm about it.

As suggested I'll make it a lifestyle change instead of a means to an end.


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## Cre8ify

And if your anything like me you won't be comfortable with "needing" anything from your wife. Pay attention to the language that allows you to maintain your masculine image--"that's not working for me" is better than "I feel" or "I need". "I demand" is also not worth a s**t by the way.


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## Tall Average Guy

sinnister said:


> Yup. It's got to be about communicating but doing it the right way. I've got to stop getting so frustrated when the subject eventually does arise and just be cool and calm about it.


While communicating is good, don't mistake more with better. Some women don't find it attractive when a man constantly brings up these relationship issues for deep talks. Occasionally is fine, but too much comes across as whining and soft. So carefully manage when you raise things.



> As suggested I'll make it a lifestyle change instead of a means to an end.


A couple things that worked for me:

1. Quit coming across as indecisive. I was often very truthful about not caring where we went to dinner, for example. She responded much better when I made some of thsoe decisions (with her input), rather then merely saying I don't care.

2. Tackle projects around the house. Doing stuff, particularly when I get out the tools, really does it for my wife. 

3. Doing stuff for myself. Whether a hobby or exercise or whatever. Being just a tiny bit more selfish. I reached a milestone at work awhile back and got to chose a small gift. The old me would have selected something that was useful for both of us. This time, I got something just for me. By showing that you have value and value yourself, the time you do spend helping her is more likely to be appreciated.

4. With respect to to the knee, start swimming. Allows you to exercise with much less stress on the joints.


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## sinnister

Tall Average Guy said:


> While communicating is good, don't mistake more with better. Some women don't find it attractive when a man constantly brings up these relationship issues for deep talks. Occasionally is fine, but too much comes across as whining and soft. So carefully manage when you raise things.
> 
> 
> 
> A couple things that worked for me:
> 
> 1. Quit coming across as indecisive. I was often very truthful about not caring where we went to dinner, for example. She responded much better when I made some of thsoe decisions (with her input), rather then merely saying I don't care.
> 
> *Wow. I find myself saying "I don't care, it's up to you" multiple times per week. *
> 2. Tackle projects around the house. Doing stuff, particularly when I get out the tools, really does it for my wife.
> 
> *I'm about as handy as a second butt hole but I have loads of tools I buy when I find a good sale and I do occassionally break them out. I'll step this up.*
> 3. Doing stuff for myself. Whether a hobby or exercise or whatever. Being just a tiny bit more selfish. I reached a milestone at work awhile back and got to chose a small gift. The old me would have selected something that was useful for both of us. This time, I got something just for me. By showing that you have value and value yourself, the time you do spend helping her is more likely to be appreciated.
> 
> *Ughh. I reached my 10 yr milestone last year and chose something practical for a family outing instead of the watch. Stupid me.*
> 4. With respect to to the knee, start swimming. Allows you to exercise with much less stress on the joints.
> 
> *I don't swim. I think a lot of my knee pain can be resolved by dropping this belly fat. So I'll do some walking/running intervals on my treadmill. About time I get some use out of that monstrosity*.


Its amazing some of the little mistakes you make that you never realize you're making.


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## Tall Average Guy

sinnister said:


> Its amazing some of the little mistakes you make that you never realize you're making.


Absolutely. The difficult part can be not seeing how these well-intentioned actions are actually hurting your relationship. As I read MMSL, it was like being hit across the face with a 2X4. I was doing a ton of little things that not conducive to being the man I wanted to be, which led to me being less attractive. Fixing those things really helped.

As far as fixing stuff, I am no great handy man. You won't see me gut a bathroom or install a new kitchen. But if you start small, you will gain more confidence. Hang some pictures and tighten the cabinet doors. Replace the lighbulbs in your car. Take out a bush in the front yard. After awhile, I found myself installing light fixtures and replacing the faucets. Nothing huge but stuff that showed me taking care of our home. 

That work thing is one where you should have gotten something for yourself. That was a reward for something you did and you deserved it. I know that I do lots of things as a team with my wife. But we each also have our own individual things we do. In this case, work is one of my individual things and I deserved the prize, if you will, for what I did. 

As you work on this, concentrate on balance on both sides, particularly in the beginning. It can be easy to become too selfish, so take a bit of time and think through what you are doing and why. Remember it is about valuing yourself as a man and establishing boundaries so that others respect that value.


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## missymrs80

The indecisive thing is HUGE.

My husband makes all the big decisions and it turns me on. 
We needed a new fridge and a new car and he didnt even ask me what i wanted; he just came home with the new car and handed me the keys and the new fridge came shortly there after. I had no clue he was going out to buy either of those things.

He did, however, pick out exactly what i would have wanted bc he listens to what i like.

5 years ago i would have thought i would hate having a husband that does that. Its weird but it works. Turns me on like crazy


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## sinnister

Ok...uh this is embarassing but I used the wrong acronym. I didnt read MMSL yet. I read NMMNG. Damn it. Sorry all. I will change thread title.

As far as making the major decisions...that's all me. Last year I decided she needed a car. After a short discussion about it, I went to the dealership, did the negotiations and bam she picked up her car the next week. This year was my turn and I did the same thing and now I have my new ride.

My indecisiveness is indifference. When she asks me what I want to do for supper or something and I don't care I just say "it's up to you". But I find myself saying it far too often lately. Major decisions...I'm still the head honcho.


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## Tall Average Guy

missymrs80 said:


> The indecisive thing is HUGE.
> 
> My husband makes all the big decisions and it turns me on.
> We needed a new fridge and a new car and he didnt even ask me what i wanted; he just came home with the new car and handed me the keys and the new fridge came shortly there after. I had no clue he was going out to buy either of those things.
> 
> He did, however, pick out exactly what i would have wanted bc he listens to what i like.
> 
> 5 years ago i would have thought i would hate having a husband that does that. Its weird but it works. Turns me on like crazy


For me at least, I was not always being indecisive. Many times, I just did not care and I thought that letting her choose would be nice. But that was not the message I was sending. 

It is a good reminder to not assume that what you mean is how the other person is interpretting it.


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## Tall Average Guy

sinnister said:


> Ok...uh this is embarassing but I used the wrong acronym. I didnt read MMSL yet. I read NMMNG. Damn it. Sorry all. I will change thread title.
> 
> As far as making the major decisions...that's all me. Last year I decided she needed a car. After a short discussion about it, I went to the dealership, did the negotiations and bam she picked up her car the next week. This year was my turn and I did the same thing and now I have my new ride.
> 
> My indecisiveness is indifference. When she asks me what I want to do for supper or something and I don't care I just say "it's up to you". But I find myself saying it far too often lately. Major decisions...I'm still the head honcho.


That's good in that it will be easier for you to do. The bad part is that those small decisions come up far more frequently, so you will need to remember to act. 

There is actually a lot of overalp in NMMNG and MMSL. Both are really about you working on being the type of man you want to be, but using different language. I think it is good to read both of them. 

I will also add that what is taught will not work for everyone in every relationship. Really pay attention to your wife as you consider how to impliment your changes.


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## MEM2020

S,
This stuff is all good and also necessary. 

It is truly half the equation. Done perfectly it will score you a 50 on the exam. Still a totally failing grade. 

At some level you are not listening and don't want to listen to her. You don't listen to her body language, her facial expressions her indirect comments which contain important information. 

She says you are too freaky - and you are dismissive of that. I have no idea what her comment means. And thats ok - because she isn't my wife. The thing is YOU have no idea what it means and that is NOT ok. 

It is so easy to dismiss her comment as bullshlt, or a fitness test. But the truth is your sex life is profoundly broken. So when she says you are "too freaky" - the only response to that is - "well that does not sound like fun for you - what do you mean by that". 

And when she wants to drop it - you tell her - "We both know that part of our marriage is broken. I want you to be honest with me so I better understand what you don't like."

And calmly - when she declines "I need you to trust me enough to tell me the truth". 

Dude - when your partner is the one REFUSING sex, a sex talk does not consist of YOU TALKING. It consists of you getting HER to TALK. 

If she won't talk, you can't make her. Just as she can't make you do the ton of stuff you do for your W that is optional and is an expression of love. YOU see that as honoring your vows. She sees it differently. She sees it as a non-stop set of confirmations from you that a sexless marriage is ok. She knows you have "talked" about it not being ok. But your actions convey the opposite. 

There are plenty of choices you make which:
- Put her first 
- Avoid putting you first
- Voluntarily put you last
- Totally avoid putting her last

While it is true that complaining in words about a lack of sexual frequency is foolish and toxic. Complaining and communicating are different. 

You WILL remain sexless until you face whatever your fears are. Because the stench of that fear is like dogshlt, and that is a big factor in her sexual aversion to you. 






sinnister said:


> Its amazing some of the little mistakes you make that you never realize you're making.


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## sinnister

I will pay close attention. She's a different kind of woman. Rarely ever shows emotion or enthusiasm. Beautiful but non sexual. Extremely head strong. She doesn't usually compromise on issues once she's made up her mind. And from what I understand she has been this way pretty much her entire life. But believe it or not that strength is what attracted me to her so I have to work with it.


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## sinnister

MEM11363 said:


> S,
> This stuff is all good and also necessary.
> 
> It is truly half the equation. Done perfectly it will score you a 50 on the exam. Still a totally failing grade.
> 
> At some level you are not listening and don't want to listen to her. You don't listen to her body language, her facial expressions her indirect comments which contain important information.
> 
> She says you are too freaky - and you are dismissive of that. I have no idea what her comment means. And thats ok - because she isn't my wife. The thing is YOU have no idea what it means and that is NOT ok.
> 
> It is so easy to dismiss her comment as bullshlt, or a fitness test. But the truth is your sex life is profoundly broken. So when she says you are "too freaky" - the only response to that is - "well that does not sound like fun for you - what do you mean by that".
> 
> And when she wants to drop it - you tell her - "We both know that part of our marriage is broken. I want you to be honest with me so I better understand what you don't like."
> 
> And calmly - when she declines "I need you to trust me enough to tell me the truth".
> 
> Dude - when your partner is the one REFUSING sex, a sex talk does not consist of YOU TALKING. It consists of you getting HER to TALK.
> 
> If she won't talk, you can't make her. Just as she can't make you do the ton of stuff you do for your W that is optional and is an expression of love. YOU see that as honoring your vows. She sees it differently. She sees it as a non-stop set of confirmations from you that a sexless marriage is ok. She knows you have "talked" about it not being ok. But your actions convey the opposite.
> 
> There are plenty of choices you make which:
> - Put her first
> - Avoid putting you first
> - Voluntarily put you last
> - Totally avoid putting her last
> 
> While it is true that complaining in words about a lack of sexual frequency is foolish and toxic. Complaining and communicating are different.
> 
> You WILL remain sexless until you face whatever your fears are. Because the stench of that fear is like dogshlt, and that is a big factor in her sexual aversion to you.


Yes. You guys are giving me the real goods without the flowery bow. This is what I need. I need to really hear her words when we do have these discussions and resist the need to impose my will. (Why the F do I do that?)

You're right the intimacy is just in shambles right now. I gotta step it up here. In all honesty part of the problem is I've become bitter (no ish...no sex does that to people). So I'm not really complacent, more like seething. I'm going to give MMSL a try as well and really make a push here to implement the strategies.


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## Chumpless

sinnister said:


> She's a different kind of woman. Rarely ever shows emotion or enthusiasm. Beautiful but non sexual. Extremely head strong. She doesn't usually compromise on issues once she's made up her mind. And from what I understand she has been this way pretty much her entire life.


Ha ha...that's my wife to the 'T'!

Once I learned to set boundaries and up my manhood she no longer refuses sex. She may "wiggle and squirm" a little on certain days / moods, but I made it pretty clear that I would not tolerate a sexless marriage and took responsibility for it too.

My biggest problem now is trying to bring back the desire. All I can do with that is continue to work on myself and hope she further responds.


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## Cre8ify

> Once I learned to set boundaries


Hey Ch-Can you elaborate on this statement?


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## Chumpless

Cre8ify said:


> Hey Ch-Can you elaborate on this statement?


Just began to understand that there's nothing wrong with asking...or declining certain things...and of course, telling how you feel about certain things. Being cool and trying to add some humor also helps in my tact.

For instance, when I told her I would not tolerate a sexless marriage, she asked how often. I said at least 3 times a week...4 is better.

She didn't like my response at the time, but now understands my need and accepts it...for now anyway. You do have to stay the course on this one though. I won't let her get away with any unreasonable deviation from what I need.

Another is the sh!t tests. I learned to decipher and respond the right way...i.e. "when's dinner, I'M hungry"..."yeah right...I don't feel like cooking tonight". This test was pulled on a day when I felt she didn't deserve diddly from me. The other night too, I just told her I did not feel like cooking. Said there's a ham in the fridge, it's in your capable hands....a couple of seconds of pouting and that was it. Dinner was served, albeit an hour.5 late...lol

Keep it fun, yet serious, yet reasonable, and she'll respond. Well, in my case she is anyway.


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## Cre8ify

Thanks for that, I PM'd ya.


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## MEM2020

This is textbook perfect. 
- clear boundaries 
- humor
- instant recognition of shlt tests
- absence of anger

If you want her to feel more desire, bring the humor and some aggression to bed


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## MEM2020

You want more desire - have her touch you the way she wants you to touch her. 

Play better one, better two like the optometrist does.


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## IndyTMI

MEM11363 said:


> You want more desire - have her touch you the way she wants you to touch her.
> 
> Play better one, better two like the optometrist does.


I've tried to get my wife to touch me like she likes to be touched, but somehow loses focus super quick and falls into some non arousing pattern.
I don't understand this...when I am focused on her physical needs, I am quite aware what is working and what doesn't work so well and adjust as I get feedback. She doesn't seem to understand this concept and how to apply it, even though I have tried to explain it to her.
I think the big difference is the interest level. How do I go about getting her to be interested in something she has verbally stated in the past is overrated?
I just finished reading NMMNG and just purchased MMSL. My wife's therapist gave her the Five Love Languages book to read. It's been home two days and she hasn't even opened it up, while last night I read the first 4 chapters already. While reading it, I told her the book hit a few points perfectly and she should certainly start reading it.
I somewhat feel she is afraid to read it, as she will realize that she is a big part of why we have a sexless marriage.


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## FoolMeOnce

New to forum and clueless. What are NMMNG, MMSL and MAP?


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## IndyTMI

No More Mr Nice Guy, The Married Man Sex Life Primer, Male action Plan


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## sinnister

IndyTM said:


> I've tried to get my wife to touch me like she likes to be touched, but somehow loses focus super quick and falls into some non arousing pattern.
> I don't understand this...when I am focused on her physical needs, I am quite aware what is working and what doesn't work so well and adjust as I get feedback. She doesn't seem to understand this concept and how to apply it, even though I have tried to explain it to her.
> I think the big difference is the interest level. How do I go about getting her to be interested in something she has verbally stated in the past is overrated?
> I just finished reading NMMNG and just purchased MMSL. My wife's therapist gave her the Five Love Languages book to read. It's been home two days and she hasn't even opened it up, while last night I read the first 4 chapters already. While reading it, I told her the book hit a few points perfectly and she should certainly start reading it.
> *I somewhat feel she is afraid to read it, as she will realize that she is a big part of why we have a sexless marriage*.


My brother in pain you this statement is exactly correct. You will find even more resistance now that potential materials that can identify her actions as contributing to be the problem are at her immediate disposal. It's such a flawed and juvenile way to handle this VERY fixable problem. My wife is the same way. As soon as things may point to her being the problem she shuts down.


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## Ten_year_hubby

IndyTM said:


> I've tried to get my wife to touch me like she likes to be touched, but somehow loses focus super quick and falls into some non arousing pattern.
> I don't understand this...when I am focused on her physical needs, I am quite aware what is working and what doesn't work so well and adjust as I get feedback. She doesn't seem to understand this concept and how to apply it, even though I have tried to explain it to her.
> I think the big difference is the interest level. How do I go about getting her to be interested in something she has verbally stated in the past is overrated?
> I just finished reading NMMNG and just purchased MMSL. My wife's therapist gave her the Five Love Languages book to read. It's been home two days and she hasn't even opened it up, while last night I read the first 4 chapters already. While reading it, I told her the book hit a few points perfectly and she should certainly start reading it.
> I somewhat feel she is afraid to read it, as she will realize that she is a big part of why we have a sexless marriage.


IndyTM,

My humble advice is to refrain from any type of mind reading or non-verbal language interpretation and lovingly, nicely and respectfully and ask your wife your wife direct questions to help you understand her. Although there is nothing wrong with respectfully asking "why" questions, you may not get much of an answer. I would further suggest you can gain a lot of understanding through asking her what things were like when she was growing up, ask her to describe her mother, her father, how they acted toward her and toward each other. From there proceed into young adulthood, friends, boyfriends, dating experiences and on into adulthood. All these things are far more important than you (or she) might think. Getting her to share is good practice and will help you in your quest to understand (her).


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## MEM2020

Sinister 
This won't work. You have this need for her to start the process by taking part of the blame. She won't. That isn't how this works at all. 
You fix you while reducing your focus on getting her approval and avoiding her disapproval. 
And when she disapproves - don't argue, just smile and say 'you'll be fine'. 
And move on with what you were doing. 

Your wife is low affect, she IS TURNED OFF BY YOUR EMOTIONAL DISPLAYS. She perceives them as weak. 

You can either do the poker face or be a lifelong wanker. Time to choose. 

The fat, complainer, emotional husband does not work for her.


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## IndyTMI

sinnister said:


> My brother in pain you this statement is exactly correct. You will find even more resistance now that potential materials that can identify her actions as contributing to be the problem are at her immediate disposal. It's such a flawed and juvenile way to handle this VERY fixable problem. My wife is the same way. As soon as things may point to her being the problem she shuts down.


In the past, I had read various things online that would benefit her, but she has refused to check them out, leaving us in the continued problem of me being HD and her LD.
Hopefully, my wife will actually read the Five Love Languages that was given to her by her therapist. It's been home with her for two days and she hasn't even turned the cover, while I am already through the first four chapters.


----------



## Ten_year_hubby

IndyTM said:


> In the past, I had read various things online that would benefit her, but she has refused to check them out, leaving us in the continued problem of me being HD and her LD.
> Hopefully, my wife will actually read the Five Love Languages that was given to her by her therapist. It's been home with her for two days and she hasn't even turned the cover, while I am already through the first four chapters.


With all due respect, I really wouldn't count on it. My first suggestion would be to find a counselor that doesn't require reading. Counselors that belive their clients will read and understand books are often mistaken and even the great Dr Chapman makes some assumptions about his (potential) readers that may not be accurate. Check out a medical solution


----------



## sinnister

MEM11363 said:


> Sinister
> This won't work. You have this need for her to start the process by taking part of the blame. She won't. That isn't how this works at all.
> You fix you while reducing your focus on getting her approval and avoiding her disapproval.
> And when she disapproves - don't argue, just smile and say 'you'll be fine'.
> And move on with what you were doing.
> 
> Your wife is low affect, she IS TURNED OFF BY YOUR EMOTIONAL DISPLAYS. She perceives them as weak.
> 
> You can either do the poker face or be a lifelong wanker. Time to choose.
> 
> The fat, complainer, emotional husband does not work for her.


Well stated. Just really tough to function when not getting any. I know I have to toughen up.


----------



## jaquen

*Re: Finally read NMMNG*



sinnister said:


> Our marriage is safe for now, but the way we're going is like driving at high speed down the highway in a snowstorm without a seatbelt. We're going to crash eventually and it's going to end badly.


And that's exactly what you need to tell your wife. If things don't change, you foresee the marriage crashing in burning down the line. Don't come to her sheepishly, or apologetically; give it to her straight up, without a chaser. She needs to know that this is serious, and that you expect her to work with you toward finding a solution. You deserve to be in a marriage that is sexually gratifying, nonjudgmental, and accepting and welcoming of you as a sexual being.





sinnister said:


> But some days no amount of painkillers can stop my knee pain...so I just veg and do nothing. I'm rambling now...but back on topic.


Bull**** excuses. The pain in your knee doesn't have jack crap to do with finding a plethora of exercises that can keep you in shape without injuring it further.

And does the pain in your need somehow magically block you from watching your diet so you don't stay a "fat phock"?

Own yours. You're fat because you chose to be, just like most people who are fat. Don't pretend it has anything to do with your knee.


----------



## Chumpless

IndyTM said:


> In the past, I had read various things online that would benefit her, but she has refused to check them out, leaving us in the continued problem of me being HD and her LD.
> Hopefully, my wife will actually read the Five Love Languages that was given to her by her therapist. It's been home with her for two days and she hasn't even turned the cover, while I am already through the first four chapters.


So she doesn't take the therapy seriously and perhaps even disrespected her H in doing so.

And MEM, whether or not any approach will work, there also comes a time when the W needs to own up too. It's not always so black and white.


----------



## Deejo

sinnister said:


> Ok...uh this is embarassing but I used the wrong acronym. I didnt read MMSL yet. I read NMMNG. Damn it. Sorry all. I will change thread title.
> 
> As far as making the major decisions...that's all me. Last year I decided she needed a car. After a short discussion about it, I went to the dealership, did the negotiations and bam she picked up her car the next week. This year was my turn and I did the same thing and now I have my new ride.
> 
> My indecisiveness is indifference. When she asks me what I want to do for supper or something and I don't care I just say "it's up to you". But I find myself saying it far too often lately. Major decisions...I'm still the head honcho.


Perfectly understandable. 

You are actually better served by having started with that book, prior to Married Man Sex Life Primer.


----------



## Deejo

Going to probably go a bit against the grain here.

But ...

Were I in your shoes now, armed with the information I have internalized, I would'nt SAY a blessed thing about what is going to happen or what you expect.

She already knows ... and obviously hasn't done much.

You need to start DOING. For yourself.
I understand that you want your wife to love, respect and be intimate with you ... but that equation isn't working nearly to your satisfaction.

So, change it.

Be accountable to and honest with yourself. That is certainly one of the tenets of NMMNG.

Do get in shape.
Nail down what's going on with your knee. If ice, ibuprofen and a brace are going to suffice, then move forward. If you need another surgery, go see your orthopedist.

In short. Start ACTING, DOING.

The biggest mistake most guys make once they start down this road is the belief that if they do X, their wife will respond with Y.

Very rarely does it work that way.

Do X because it is the thing that you want or need to do to improve YOUR life, with or without your spouses acknowledgement, blessing, or curse.

I absolutely understand that women need to feel loved, safe, and respected in order to want to roll through the sheets or take the ottoman for a spin ...

but ... sometimes in order to rebuild that dynamic you need to shatter the existing dynamic wherein she feels completely comfortable with your discomfort.

So ... the goal is that you get comfortable with your life despite whether your partner is comfortable with it or not.

Think you can do that?


----------



## Broken at 20

Well, can't help ya with a sexless marriage. 
Except I've heard the fleshlight is like having sex with an invisible lady. And only $60. Might give it a try...


----------



## IndyTMI

Broken at 20 said:


> Well, can't help ya with a sexless marriage.
> Except I've heard the fleshlight is like having sex with an invisible lady. And only $60. Might give it a try...


This is absolutely of no help...we don't need a tool to assist with achieving orgasm...we need a loving companion to share intimate sex with. A fleshlight isn't the answer.


----------



## MEM2020

C,
You are absolutely right. This is almost always a joint problem. 

It is also true that kindness, and love and anger and aggression have to date produced neither comprehension nor resolution. 

All pressure and focus has been upon having sex. Instead of gaining an understanding as to why she avoids it like the plague. 

I have provided a short, pointed approach focused on understanding the refuser. For some reason, most folks, men and women alike, seem to fear the truth more than celibacy. 




Chumpless said:


> So she doesn't take the therapy seriously and perhaps even disrespected her H in doing so.
> 
> And MEM, whether or not any approach will work, there also comes a time when the W needs to own up too. It's not always so black and white.


----------



## sinnister

*Re: Finally read NMMNG*



jaquen said:


> And that's exactly what you need to tell your wife. If things don't change, you foresee the marriage crashing in burning down the line. Don't come to her sheepishly, or apologetically; give it to her straight up, without a chaser. She needs to know that this is serious, and that you expect her to work with you toward finding a solution. You deserve to be in a marriage that is sexually gratifying, nonjudgmental, and accepting and welcoming of you as a sexual being.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bull**** excuses. The pain in your knee doesn't have jack crap to do with finding a plethora of exercises that can keep you in shape without injuring it further.
> 
> And does the pain in your need somehow magically block you from watching your diet so you don't stay a "fat phock"?
> 
> Own yours. You're fat because you chose to be, just like most people who are fat. Don't pretend it has anything to do with your knee.


Again you're right. I can absolutely fight through this and get back into slowly. Diet is not really an issue. I eat right for the most part (although I do enjoy beer during the summer months).


----------



## sinnister

Deejo said:


> Going to probably go a bit against the grain here.
> 
> But ...
> 
> Were I in your shoes now, armed with the information I have internalized, I would'nt SAY a blessed thing about what is going to happen or what you expect.
> 
> She already knows ... and obviously hasn't done much.
> 
> You need to start DOING. For yourself.
> I understand that you want your wife to love, respect and be intimate with you ... but that equation isn't working nearly to your satisfaction.
> 
> So, change it.
> 
> Be accountable to and honest with yourself. That is certainly one of the tenets of NMMNG.
> 
> Do get in shape.
> Nail down what's going on with your knee. If ice, ibuprofen and a brace are going to suffice, then move forward. If you need another surgery, go see your orthopedist.
> 
> In short. Start ACTING, DOING.
> 
> The biggest mistake most guys make once they start down this road is the belief that if they do X, their wife will respond with Y.
> 
> Very rarely does it work that way.
> 
> Do X because it is the thing that you want or need to do to improve YOUR life, with or without your spouses acknowledgement, blessing, or curse.
> 
> I absolutely understand that women need to feel loved, safe, and respected in order to want to roll through the sheets or take the ottoman for a spin ...
> 
> but ... sometimes in order to rebuild that dynamic you need to shatter the existing dynamic wherein she feels completely comfortable with your discomfort.
> 
> So ... the goal is that you get comfortable with your life despite whether your partner is comfortable with it or not.
> 
> Think you can do that?


I will continue with developing myself and try very hard not to expect anything in return from her. It's hard but doable.

The knee thing: After my 3rd MRI I went to see a renowned sports medicine physician who worked with the Senators (yes I'm in hockey country). All he could tell me was there was significant swelling and bleeding at the end of the tibia and surrounding knee cap cartilage. But no structural damage. So off to rehab it I went. Hasn't help a lick. I can still run and change direction almost as well as ever...but its the next day that gets me. The swelling is ridiculous.

Anyways, as a short update we actually did have sex last weekend. It shocked the heck out of me to say the least. Embarrassing as all hell cause I shot pretty quick. But I was pretty happy as you can imagine. Then she brought up that it was difficult to find the time to get frisky cause the kids were always around...that pissed me off and I said no it isn't. It isn't hard to get the kids to go to Grandma's house who lives 5 minutes away...give me a break.

I didn't blow it though. I played cool after that and didn't escalate. Then yesterday she apologized and said "It sucks what you're going through" in regards to the epic blue balls. It was sincere as her sarcasm engine is broken.

I'm really starting to think this woman really IS as tired as she claims she is. I'll continue the self improvements and see how things progress.


----------



## Saki

Apologize for not reading the thread, this may have been mentioned:

There is a book (you love reading .... right ??) called "how to hold onto your NUTS". It's a great companion to NMMNG.

One of the points it makes is that your wife SHOULD NOT be your confidant. She should not be the person you talk to about the struggles you have, ESPECIALLY your marital problems.

WHOOPS accidentally hit the post button.

You should take your marital issues to your TRUSTED MALE FRIENDS. Your wife will not help you solve your marital problems. It's up to YOU to take the action necessary to do so.

Anyway just wanted to throw that out there, as one of the important changes you may need to make.

(how do you develop trusted male friends? Well, a good place to start is find some physical activities and hobbys you can do and meet some people with similar interests there. It's not a quick fix...)


----------



## Saki

Ok I read the thread now.

I think one of the things nice guys, and I'm one of em, by the way, really struggle with is understanding what is OUR problem and what is someone else's problem.

We tend to see everything as OUR problem and put a whole lot of energy into fixing stuff that...just isn't OUR problem.

Your wife being tired is HER problem. It's not YOUR problem. Don't spend a second trying to solve it, don't even attempt to come up with a solution. You are spinning your wheels.

"gosh sinnister that sex was fun. It so hard to find time to get frisky"

"mrs sinnister, it sure sounds like you are frustrated with how busy you are. It just seems like there's never enough time in day to do the things you want to do. I feel like I am not a priority to you when you don't make time for getting frisky. Sex is definitely a priority to me and I am not interested in a sexless marriage" 

You see, YOUR problem is the lack of sex.

I found my life gets increasingly more enjoyable as I start to learn the difference between my problems and other people's problems. You have to be willing to accept that other people have problems and they may suffer from them, but there is nothing you can or SHOULD do to fix it.


----------



## Jeapordy

*Re: Finally read NMMNG*



sinnister said:


> The part about fear and shame really shook me. I didn't really agree with it pertaining to me until I really took a look at myself. I am NOT open about my desires with my wife. She is very conservative in the bedroom and I just repressed my desires after a while. It's driving me a little crazy. She had mentioned a few years ago that my "freakiness" was a problem for. So I just burried it.


Sinnister
This quote really hit home for me. I have a very good relationship with my wife, with the exception of our sex life. I am too "freaky" for her, although I think my desires are very normal. I just want her to work as hard at having a good sex life as I do. In 15 years, she has barely ever wanted anything other than vanilla sex, and not very often. Since it was vanilla, I sort of lost interest and didn't push hard to do it more often. 
I haven't seen any advice from others on how you deal with a sexually conservative wife when you have deep desires for more (i.e. toys, outfits, shaving, role play).


----------



## Deejo

sinnister said:


> Then yesterday she apologized and said "It sucks what you're going through" in regards to the epic blue balls. It was sincere as her sarcasm engine is broken.


I really like to see couples get to the place where they reconnect. I want the happily ever after for whomever can get it.

I say that as a preface to what I have to say next.

What she said wasn't an apology. It was an acknowledgment that she knows you don't like it, but it ain't her problem.

I'm not trying to inflame the situation or you. But ... I think this stuff is important.

There are lots of ways you can approach this.

I can still vividly recall when my ex would 'throw me a bone' every once in a while for no other reason than appeasement. Her staunch belief, which she eventually owned in counseling was "Ok, so if I do this and don't complain that will shut him up for a while. It'll smooth things over."

Until the dynamic simply rebuilds itself to the breaking point once again. That there, is what I call dysfunction.

You get to decide which DefCon level is most appropriate to deal with this.

DefCon5: "Well I'm presuming it sucks with what you are going through as well, what can we do to change it?"

DefCon1: "I appreciate your concern, but I don't intend to be going through this for much longer."

I try to be aware of my own projection. I don't know your circumstances, but what I do know of them, and based upon her responses, sex is not a priority for her and she has no intention or desire to make it one. And she's ok with that, and despite her acknowledgment and mercy sex, she expects you to be ok with it too.

So, are you?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Deejo said:


> What she said wasn't an apology. It was an acknowledgment that she knows you don't like it, but it ain't her problem.
> 
> I'm not trying to inflame the situation or you. But ... I think this stuff is important.


Sometimes, we as humans are so eager to receive an apology that we fool ourselves into hearing one even when it is not there.


----------



## sinnister

Deejo said:


> I really like to see couples get to the place where they reconnect. I want the happily ever after for whomever can get it.
> 
> I say that as a preface to what I have to say next.
> 
> *What she said wasn't an apology. It was an acknowledgment that she knows you don't like it, but it ain't her problem.*
> I'm not trying to inflame the situation or you. But ... I think this stuff is important.
> 
> There are lots of ways you can approach this.
> 
> I can still vividly recall when my ex would 'throw me a bone' every once in a while for no other reason than appeasement. Her staunch belief, which she eventually owned in counseling was "Ok, so if I do this and don't complain that will shut him up for a while. It'll smooth things over."
> 
> Until the dynamic simply rebuilds itself to the breaking point once again. That there, is what I call dysfunction.
> 
> You get to decide which DefCon level is most appropriate to deal with this.
> 
> DefCon5: "Well I'm presuming it sucks with what you are going through as well, what can we do to change it?"
> 
> DefCon1: "I appreciate your concern, but I don't intend to be going through this for much longer."
> 
> *I try to be aware of my own projection. I don't know your circumstances, but what I do know of them, and based upon her responses, sex is not a priority for her and she has no intention or desire to make it one. And she's ok with that, and despite her acknowledgment and mercy sex, she expects you to be ok with it too.*
> So, are you?


Damn it. I feel like wiley Coyote falling for tricks in old cartoons while roadrunner runs circles around me.

I'm a self admitted expert in human behaviour, yet I didn't for the life of me see that this was not an apology. But the more I try to think objectively about it...the more I see you're absolutely right. 

F...I'm not gonna be able to make this work if I'm so easily fooled.

And you're also right about her priorities. She has flat out told me that this is not a priority for her. And she throws me the occassional bone and I knaw on it happily tail wagging. BS. 

For a guy who thinks he's pretty smart, I'm pretty dumb about women.


----------



## MEM2020

Sinister 
This isn't about her. It really isn't. 

Emotional blind spots are often fear driven. 

Fear of losing the marriage drives fear of real conversation/communication. This leads to her shutting down an activity she dislikes and you don't want to hear her being critical. 

At that point being fat is just one more turn off. 

Why are you so afraid of finding out why she dislikes sex. 

What is the worst thing that she can tell you? She may be giving you non apologies, but you sure seem uninterested in knowing why she dislikes sex.


----------



## Deejo

I truly don't believe that this needs to be a war of attrition.

But this I firmly do believe for guys that find themselves in these circumstances.

She is comfortable with your discomfort.

She needs to be far less comfortable. 

That doesn't mean you turn into a a$$hole overnight.

What it means is that to coin MEM's term, you DRASTICALLY reduce the temperature in the conduct of your relationship.

You destabilize. Calmly. Methodically.

At it's simplest, you stop serving the relationship for HER satisfaction, and instead focus on your own. The intent is not to openly or outwardly be mean or disrespectful. The intent is quite simply that you give what you get ... and odds are, she isn't going to like the comfort and familiarity of your relationship dynamic being shaken up.

I think someone up-thread recommended "Hold Onto Your N.U.T.'s". I second that recommendation. Get the audio book if you need to.


----------



## Conrad

sinnister said:


> Damn it. I feel like wiley Coyote falling for tricks in old cartoons while roadrunner runs circles around me.
> 
> I'm a self admitted expert in human behaviour, yet I didn't for the life of me see that this was not an apology. But the more I try to think objectively about it...the more I see you're absolutely right.
> 
> F...I'm not gonna be able to make this work if I'm so easily fooled.
> 
> And you're also right about her priorities. She has flat out told me that this is not a priority for her. And she throws me the occassional bone and I knaw on it happily tail wagging. BS.
> 
> For a guy who thinks he's pretty smart, I'm pretty dumb about women.


Have you read the thermostat thread?


----------



## CanadianGuy

From my experience so far destabilization is not something I was actively doing but rather a byproduct of my newly discovered or renewed interest in my balls. I am a spectator of her reactions rather than expecting her to behave in a certain way. I will add that with the exception of a few circumstances her reactions have not been uncommon and from what I have read on these threads almost laughably predictable. 

It was important that I discovered the source of our difficulties and as another poster said I too felt like I had been hit with a 2 x 4. ( in the nuts ). After reading MMSLP ( I'm on a hold list at the library for NMMNG ) 

After the initial reading it took me awhile to put certain things into practice. I probably over reacted on sh*t tests as in the beginning of this I would look for them all the time. lol. I am very good at recognizing them now. Upping sex rank is a big deal. Do what you can to improve your appearance overall. 

I have in no way let her know what I'm doing. Why would she need to know? 

It has been and interesting and enlightening journey so far. I feel like I am tearing down a shaky condemned building and starting over to build something stronger and far better. My demolition was the ugly part as I found all kinds of rotten timber and failing support systems. Leaks from the roof and a crumbling foundation to boot. I'm getting carried away here. lol.

"I take orders from just one person: Me. " Hans Solo.


----------



## Saki

CanadianGuy said:


> I am a spectator of her reactions


Another facet of this is that the typical NG is constantly looking for validation of his self worth through his wife's reactions.

Happy wife = I'm a good person
Angry wife = I'm worthless

One cannot be a objective observer, a spectator, with this disfunction present in their own minds.

NMMNG deals directly with learning to decouple your self worth from others, ESPECIALLY WOMEN, around you.

For that reason alone, I personally believe it is better to go through NMMNG and REALLY work through your self worth and self esteem issues before you hit up MMSL and work on some of the other stuff.

Also, someone recommended "The Way of the Superior Man". I would caution the typical Nice Guy before reading that book. Personally, the content of that book was so disturbing to my world view and shaking to my self esteem that for a couple weeks afterward I felt it did a lot more harm then good. The book contains nothing but truths, in my opinion, but I was nowhere near ready to hear what it had to say. If you felt like NMMNG hit you with a 2x4, "The Way of the Superior Man" is like getting a ton of bricks dropped on you.

For me, a good reading order would have been NMMNG, Hold onto your NUTS, (other self help books like "Boundries" and "When I say No I Feel Guilty" and "Co Dependant No More" in a cooling off period while you process the first two), MMSL, live life a year or two, THEN The Way of The Superior Man.


----------



## CanadianGuy

Saki said:


> Happy wife = I'm a good person
> Angry wife = I'm worthless
> 
> One cannot be a objective observer, a spectator, with this disfunction present in their own minds.


Very good point.


----------



## jaquen

Saki said:


> =
> One of the points it makes is that your wife SHOULD NOT be your confidant. She should not be the person you talk to about the struggles you have, ESPECIALLY your marital problems.
> 
> WHOOPS accidentally hit the post button.
> 
> You should take your marital issues to your TRUSTED MALE FRIENDS. Your wife will not help you solve your marital problems. It's up to YOU to take the action necessary to do so.


This is not true, at least not for all relationships. I have the very model of "TRUSTED MALE FRIENDS"; I've got lots of friends, and _five_ male best friends who are closer to me than brothers; I can tell these men literally anything.

But my wife and I were best friends for six years before we got together, and were together for 8 years before we married. We have a long history of strong communication, and we have always worked out our relationship issues together, one on one. 

My wife and I both solve our relationship issues. It's one of our strongest points. We've developed the ability to step outside ourselves and offer insight, and repair, to issues.

If we took you approach we probably wouldn't even be together today. That would be the absolutely worst advice possible to give to a couple like us.


----------



## FalconKing

I completely agree with Jaquen. I see this a lot. Telling people that their shouldn't be things you discuss with your spouse, but other people are ok. Whenever things are really difficult, you are conditioning yourself to shut down to your spouse and just vent about it to your boys. I think your wife can be your confidant but I think you just have to be careful to present yourself as a man that is not weak and needy. It's not "I can't tell you this", It's "I will be very open with you and how I feel and and what's important to me, but i'm not going(or try not to) to whine and complain to you."


----------



## sinnister

MEM11363 said:


> Sinister
> This isn't about her. It really isn't.
> 
> Emotional blind spots are often fear driven.
> 
> Fear of losing the marriage drives fear of real conversation/communication. This leads to her shutting down an activity she dislikes and you don't want to hear her being critical.
> 
> At that point being fat is just one more turn off.
> 
> Why are you so afraid of finding out why she dislikes sex.
> 
> What is the worst thing that she can tell you? She may be giving you non apologies, but you sure seem uninterested in knowing why she dislikes sex.


It's common sense that when you go from abs to escessive flab she'll be less attracted so yes, the fat just adds to the mess and I am working on it.

About figuring out what she dislikes so much? I have never gotten a straight answer. I like to solve problems quickly so I asked her years ago when I first noticed this deal started. But she always responds with either silence or something along the lines of:
1. Being tired
2. No time
3. Resentment (although she only used this once I believe it the most).

I'll get their guys, I'm taking in all of the advice and applying it. Off to pick up some more reading later tonight.


----------



## sinnister

Conrad said:


> Have you read the thermostat thread?


I have but...I think I should mention that the NG tendencies are not that prevalent in my marriage.

I believe I'm more alpha than anything. But my behaviour definately contributed to a climate that would make her think lack of intimacy would be okay. Now I'm working on switching that dynamic to create a climate where she feels that is not okay.


----------



## FalconKing

Do you think she has ever cheated on you? I mean obviously she has some resentment issues. But that only effects you and her. Do you ever think she has gotten her needs met in other ways?


----------



## sinnister

No one can ever be sure as I'm now aware of thanks to TAM. But she has never had the opportunity. She is never away from the house other than work. She rarely shops for anything. And all activities away from home are done with her family and our kids.

I should mention that this is a woman that doesn't even "take matters into her own hands". I have verified. She texts but no more than your average woman does and I verify that too. Our workplace email is monitored (both of us...we work in different places) so theres next to no chance anything can be happening that way.

I have flat out asked her multiple times but without proof we know what the answer always is. 

I will take MEM's advice and get to the meat of it and ask her what exactly her deal is in terms of why she hates it. I won't take a BS answer as sufficient either.


----------



## FalconKing

Have you ever asked her "what is it that you want from this marriage that you are not getting?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Saki

sinnister said:


> I will take MEM's advice and get to the meat of it and ask her what exactly her deal is in terms of why she hates it. I won't take a BS answer as sufficient either.


What if she dosen't know the answer?

And here is a Deida line that may be relavent: "her complaint is content free..."


----------



## IndyTMI

FalconKing said:


> Have you ever asked her "what is it that you want from this marriage that you are not getting?"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I asked my wife a very similar question last night.
She knows what I am not getting, but my question to her got me back a shoulder shrug. 
I know her answer...desire. I told her I know she doesn't have passion or desire for me any longer. 
So far I know she has researched hormone therapy...it's at least a start.


----------



## Cre8ify

This can best be described as "she will know it when she sees it". We went through probably 10 MC sessions, chapter and verse about what I was missing in the relationship. The MC was dying to move on but we were stalled on this topic. The best answer she could ever get from my wife for an unmet need of hers was...wait for it...would Cre8ify please get some sleeping pills.

There you have it. Its all good. The only thing that really bothers me is when my husband is up milling around at 4 a.m.

IMO it is attraction that is missing. They don't want to hit us between the eyes with it. And far as they know, they can live without it.


----------



## MEM2020

C, 
Yes. You are correct. 

When you have the presence of major negatives they will tell you. But the absence of desire is much more difficult. 

Let's take Sinister for example. He says he is alpha. But what exactly does that mean in the context of a marriage? 

I will answer what it means to me in a marriage:
- your partner has a desire to please you, and they make the effort to do so
- your partner knows what types of situations cause you to be unhappy with them, and makes an effort to avoid doing things that cause you distress

Of course this is a two way street. And a healthy complementary set of behaviors where both folks strive to please each other. 

Of course for a woman, life is in a sense more complicated. Her desire for financial security and stability at an emotional level drive a set of behaviors aimed at ensuring her partner puts her and the kids needs first. Sadly the result of doing too much of that for her is an erosion of desire. It takes a special woman to say: be tougher, more selfish, don't put up with my crap. 

And there is a set of subtle but pervasive 'trying to please her' behaviors which transmit submission.


----------



## Cre8ify

> "her complaint is content free..."


I love this quote..even went back to the book to see it in context.


----------



## Saki

Ok, so take the "her complaint is content free" theory and apply it to this:



sinnister said:


> But she always responds with either silence or something along the lines of:
> 1. Being tired
> 2. No time
> 3. Resentment (although she only used this once I believe it the most).
> 
> I'll get their guys, I'm taking in all of the advice and applying it. Off to pick up some more reading later tonight.


The first thing I note, is that asking her what the problem is will garner you no valuable information whatsoever.

This line of thinking is based on the logic that your wife is interested in solving the problem. Women do not solve problems. They aren't interested in solutions, especially quick ones. Women express feelings.

I think if you guys (and myself for that matter) want to improve things, you gotta start taking the focus off her. The answer isn't there. Turn these questions around (by the way, sex is not a complete answer):

Sinnister: What do you dislike so much about your marriage? 

Cre8ify: I know you covered it in MC but it might be helpful to discuss here, but what is missing from your marriage?

IndyTM: What do you want from marriage that you aren't getting?

Man, one thing to note, reading this thread and seeing how it is playing out, really is making me buy into Deida and The Way of the Superior Man even more.....


----------



## Cre8ify

> The first thing I note, is that asking her what the problem is will garner you no valuable information whatsoever.
> 
> *True, I have proven this beyond the shadow of a doubt.*
> 
> This line of thinking is based on the logic that your wife is interested in solving the problem. Women do not solve problems. They aren't interested in solutions, especially quick ones. Women express feelings.
> 
> *Deida describes their essence as a churning ocean, dynamic, fluid, and unpredictable. A woman's reality is the emotion of the moment. Whew...who knew!*
> 
> I think if you guys (and myself for that matter) want to improve things, you gotta start taking the focus off her. The answer isn't there. Turn these questions around (by the way, sex is not a complete answer):
> 
> *Agreed and I am well down the road. The last thing my wife wanted was to own any of "my problem". It was only after she realized how much better we could be that she admitted "my problem" might be worth solving.*
> 
> Sinnister: What do you dislike so much about your marriage?
> 
> Cre8ify: I know you covered it in MC but it might be helpful to discuss here, but what is missing from your marriage?
> 
> *I can walk into any room alone and string together conversations. I can engage women in deep penetrating conversations. I am self employed, make a great living and have a flexible schedule. I am tireless, my body is ripped and I am well dressed, I am intensely loyal and do the right things guided by my religious faith...and I cannot attract my own wife? WTF?*
> 
> IndyTM: What do you want from marriage that you aren't getting?
> 
> Man, one thing to note, reading this thread and seeing how it is playing out, really is making me buy into Deida and The Way of the Superior Man even more.....


----------



## Saki

Cre8ify said:


> Deida describes their essence as a churning ocean, dynamic, fluid, and unpredictable. A woman's reality is the emotion of the moment. Whew...who knew!


Yes, and think of all the time, energy, and frustration we all spend arguing with them about reality, trying to use examples taken out of reality to prove we are right and they are wrong....


----------



## naga75

Cre8ify,
when you cant attract your own wife, yet you are at the height of your own attractiveness, perhaps it is time to examine who your wife should be ala Kay?
i dunno.
i do know that men today have been sucked into the whole "if my wife isnt happy, im not happy" mentality.
which i have come to find out (after many years of not understanding) is sheer and utter bullsh!t.
i can be just fine. i can make myself happy.
wether that be working horses, fishing, spending time with my kids, building something, accomplishing something...i can be HAPPY. if wife wants to come along, she is welcome. if not, well...cant win em all.
my wife is slowly, but surely, beginning to realize this.


----------



## Cre8ify

That would seem to be the next logical move. She is strong but not exactly self sufficient. She relies on me emotionally. When I pull away its ugly. And yes, I could be very happy on my own...if not for these *%#* vows.


----------



## naga75

Haha yes they complicate matters, dont they.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

Women don't want to solve problems? That is such bull****. I can't remember one conversation my husband has ever started in order to work out a problem between us. Not one. It is always, and I do mean always, me. 

And what do you think women do all day at work and with their kids? I have solved three problems with my daughters just while typing this post. Our Prime Minister is a woman, and she's done a pretty good job of solving the problem of our misogynistic Opposition Leader. 

The truth is, it's hard for humans to keep being attracted to the same person decade after decade. Men generally have higher testosterone, so they can carry on regardless. Women stop being interested in their husbands sexually after a few years and unless there's great love and a highish drive, they won't get it back and most of them won't understand why it's gone. it's not generally known that women find it easier to get aroused by an unfamiliar partner. Sex at Dawn.


----------



## naga75

Lyris how long is "a few years"? so i can be vigilant!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen

Saki said:


> Women do not solve problems. They aren't interested in solutions,



I'm not sure what's going on here at TAM today, but I am reading some of the most egregious, ignorant statements.

Women don't solve problems? They're not interested in solutions?

WTF?


----------



## Lyris

jaquen said:


> I'm not sure what's going on here at TAM today, but I am reading some of the most egregious, ignorant statements.
> 
> Women don't solve problems? They're not interested in solutions?
> 
> WTF?


Just when I am ready to dismiss all the men on TAM as ignorant ****heads, there you are, restoring my faith. Thanks J. 

And Naga, I'd say between 4 and 7 years sounds about right. It's probably connected somehow to the natural weaning age of children. 

But biology is not destiny, and that's not an absolute or a free pass. Just a bit of information that might make it easier to understand and therefore solve. But I'm not interested in solving stuff, because my vagina gets in the way.


----------



## jaquen

Lyris said:


> Women stop being interested in their husbands sexually after a few years and unless there's great love and a highish drive, they won't get it back and most of them won't understand why it's gone. it's not generally known that women find it easier to get aroused by an unfamiliar partner. Sex at Dawn.


This definitely is info that I'm only now hearing. Very interesting, and insightful. It could explain a lot of the root issues you're seeing in longer running marriages...


----------



## FalconKing

Lyris said:


> Women don't want to solve problems? That is such bull****. I can't remember one conversation my husband has ever started in order to work out a problem between us. Not one. It is always, and I do mean always, me.
> 
> And what do you think women do all day at work and with their kids? I have solved three problems with my daughters just while typing this post. Our Prime Minister is a woman, and she's done a pretty good job of solving the problem of our misogynistic Opposition Leader.
> 
> The truth is, it's hard for humans to keep being attracted to the same person decade after decade. Men generally have higher testosterone, so they can carry on regardless. Women stop being interested in their husbands sexually after a few years and unless there's great love and a highish drive, they won't get it back and most of them won't understand why it's gone. it's not generally known that women find it easier to get aroused by an unfamiliar partner. Sex at Dawn.


Lyris this coincides with a lot of advice for married men to keep your wife guessing and having a dynamic so that she always pursues you.

But damn that is depressing to read though. Especially for someone who is not married yet. If I marry I am for sure trying to have a prenuptial agreement.


----------



## Lyris

FK, didn't mean to scare you. Just make sure you find a woman who really loves you and cares whether you are happy, and also has a healthy sex drive. We're out there. Oh, and don't let her walk all over you. She needs to know you'll leave if she treats you badly.

And don't use the pill as contraception. Or the Mirena. No hormone manipulation.


----------



## FalconKing

Lyris said:


> FK, didn't mean to scare you. Just make sure you find a woman who really loves you and cares whether you are happy, and also has a healthy sex drive. We're out there. Oh, and don't let her walk all over you. *She needs to know you'll leave if she treats you badly.*
> 
> And don't use the pill as contraception. Or the Mirena. No hormone manipulation.


This is why I think I want a pre-nup. I am willing to give my all to a marriage. I will try my best to stay attractive, let my wife know my faults but try not to make a habit of committing them, be understanding, have integrity, live a life of purpose, and try to always keep that romantic spark. If I do all these things and one day my wife tells me she just doesn't want to have sex anymore, I don't want to be completely at the mercy of her and the legal system.


----------



## MEM2020

Lyris, 
I have read the studies. I believe them. 

Ignoring the self, selection bias on this type of site: 
- for a lower t person (normally the woman), loss of desire is the norm. Boredom is a factor
- and a drop in the man's t levels often contribute
- a phenomenon I refer to as the rising alpha amplifies this. This is the fully mature female fully coming into her own

Men are generally terrible at low intensity conflict. Women excel at it. 

Mix all that together and you find an awful lot of hd spouses who are not happy. 

I really love that quote: your partner needs to feel safe being intimate with you and unsafe denying intimacy. 

If anything ever happened to The Good Wife, I don't think I would remarry. I would play the monogamy card which is this: Treat me well because I prize stability but won't suffocate or bore you. Treat me badly and I will warn you before I leave. That said, I am not going to write you a big check because you didn't feel like making the effort to take care of what matters to me.


----------



## BookOfJob

Lyris said:


> ............
> 
> And Naga, I'd say between 4 and 7 years sounds about right. It's probably connected somehow to the natural weaning age of children.
> 
> *But biology is not destiny*, and that's not an absolute or a free pass........


I started reading the book "Sex at Dawn" and I couldn't finish it. It just came across to me as a pro-divorce book, with biology as the main excuse.

Reading you post, Lyris, I thought, "Oh I can do that too. Just take away my reason and accountability(*) and I will turn into a biological automaton." 

But then I read your disclaimer in bold. I really hope that many women think like you.

I believe we have evolved long enough, and that we shouldn't be dictated by biology alone.

(*) this, by the way, is a quote from a movie but maybe it is the truth for some people?


----------



## FalconKing

Sinnister I apologize for the thread highjacking. Lyris just brought up some really interesting stuff! 

Please continue to post us your progress.


----------



## fetishwife

This is what I think "fixed" the sex problem (so far) in my marriage after 23 years of living together....first 14 was once a week and her never really into it and never had O's ever.

(1) Wife never told me about HER SEXUALITY.....SHE AND I both tried to fix HER sexuality into MY mold of what sex was....as it turned out she has a slightly unusual sexuality (see my username) but was ashamed of it and it took her 14 years to tell me about it.

(2) In the next 7 years she accessed it a little more and occasionally brought herself to O's during sex..but this was RARE...maybe once every 1-2 months in a 1-2 times per week sex life....

(3) AGAIN, I was trying to MOLD HER into MY view of sexuality and she felt that I HATED her SEXUALITY....admittedly I thought it was strange..but she amplified this in her mind and SHUT DOWN as woman are apt to do per this and a million other threads....thus sex was 1-2 times per week and ONLY on weekends...leaving me in my late 30's and early 40's to constant blue balls and too much porn for relief....being very HD guy.

(4) Wife AGAIN tried to assert HER SEXUALITY...in this case getting an obsession over an actor (which I have discussed on here before)...once again NOT my idea of sexuality....BUT I LOVED THE NEW EXPERIENCE OF ACTUAL PASSION.

(5) Eventually I GAVE IN and ACCEPTED THAT HER SEXUALITY is HER OWN and NOT the same as MINE but we can share sex if her particular sexuality can be accessed.

All this leads into what MEM mentioned...

(A) It is VERY UNCOMFORTABLE FOR HER TO BE NON-SEXUAL with me....despite what is said on here and in MMSL and Zorro etc...I DO whine and have fits when Im (now very rarely) turned down...(not that I recommend this)...but I also threatened in a very very credible and CALM way on other occasions to leave her if we ever went back to the living hell of once a week sex....

I also told her that for me NORMAL would be sex three times a day..so ONCE a day would already be a HUGE COMPROMISE for me...(yes I exaggerated...but there was a period in there where I felt my T was too high and I was hypersexual)...

...so its a MIX of wimp and tough guy..for whatever reason Im lucky and she still sees me overall as tough, opinionated, very demanding....I JUDGE the HELL out of her.she COMPLAINS that I am judgemental and demanding...but the fact that she cares to try everything and anything to please me...that tells me Im the alpha...

even the MC told me my wife sees herself as running in circles trying to please me.....and that Im seen as the CENTER of her world....(although I wish she would make me feel that way all the time).

..lately Ive been using the "point system" on her...when I started that she went GIDDY for it..she told me she LOVED IT when I gave her points and subtracted points...GO FIGURE!

So my sexual value persona is the judge personality and I'm constantly telling her she is a "bad girl" or a "good girl" and on that side I lavash her with praise and complements that are sincere..

In my case this is all just ME...I dont do it as a game but Ive amplified the positive parts of it after reading all those tests..MMSL etc.

(B) Since I discovered she was VERY UNCOMFORTABLE with her sexuality I have done ANYTHING and EVERYTHING I can think of to HELP HER FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE WITH HER SEXUALITY.....for example...she was ashamed that she could not have O's without self stimulation in a certain position...so I convinced her that I LOVE IT when she does it that way.....for example..she was ashamed of what she had to picture in her mind to have an O. I tried to go with that fetish with her..but that made her uncomfortable...so INSTEAD I told her some wacky and uncomfortable things that go through my mind when I have trouble getting an O......this INDIRECTLY made her feel much more comfortable to go with her thoughts privately in her own mind....I made it "normal" for her...I sent her articles of people with her same issues.....at first it annoyed me that she got all these obsessions with particular actors...NOW I ENCOURAGE IT and it has become more like a PORN thing or a joke...I send her nude pics of the guys when I find them etc..we watch movies with these actors in them together and then she as sex with me.....helps that BOREDOM issue a lot I think...since she is likely very low drive still (well she has almost ZERO natural body hair ? low T) and had always been LD...

the KEY being to MAKE IT VERY COMFORTABLE FOR HER TO BE SEXUAL WITH ME NOW...vs in the past I made it uncomfortable for her to be sexual without wanting to...cause I WAS TRYING TO MOLD HER SEXUALITY TO MY IDEA OF WHAT IT SHOULD BE! 

I made the mistake of not paying attention to her real sexuality and amplifying that....instead I tried to redirect and shut her down....so I shot myself and really her in the foot.

So OP....you have it BACKWARDS...as did I sorta....although I always made my wife UNCOMFORTABLE with not being sexual...by pushing and complaining and being pretty alpha in bed almost always...

YOU ARE DOING THIS...

(1) SHE IS COMFORTABLE BEING NON SEXUAL WITH YOU...as evidenced by her little comment about your blue balls...as if she was sorry for you...not SORRY SHE IS NOT DOING HER JOB AS A WIFE! Not allowing a reasonable sex life IS CHEATING! Assuming you are actually demanding it and not just waiting for her to initiate?

(2) As evidenced by the "freaky" comment that you have not explored at all...she is UNCOMFORTABLE BEING SEXUAL WITH YOU!

Now that I have corrected (and continue to correct) these issues in my marriage..

..my wife is well aware that being non sexual with me is not an option...that I WILL leave her at worst and at best become very difficult to live with if we are not true lovers. That means she actually has to be into it also...I have made it known to her that lying there and doing "starfish" sex is NOT acceptable and that is not being lovers and that I feel my wife should be my lover and that this should last a lifetime. Im always pointing out examples of couples who have sex less frequently and stating to her and getting her agreement that we never want to be like them. Im also pointing out everything I can find when I come across it that more sex is healthy, having O's is health, etc....

On my end I have to accept that she will probably never be as high drive as myself...maybe my drive will slowly start to fall anyway now that Im pushing 47....and most of all I have to accept that she has a sexuality that is very different than my own.....even if its something like her getting into certain male movie stars.....not my thing...I need to encourage it because its all good if it increases her sexuality with me. I had a really hard time with this one as initially I felt like it meant that I was inadequate....now I realize its more of a "variety" thing or it hits her middle brain centers that need for certain qualities visually or action wise that stimulate her inner desire for sex. As long as she has the sex with me and its safe for me..(she is not running off with a Hollywood movie star as she would be in a long line of women and she does not actually want to do that anyway as far as I can tell....).

So....

How did I learn all this.....lots of pain and anguish, lots or trial and error, lots of working on myself and self esteem....

LOTS AND LOTS of talking with my wife....not taking "NO I dont want to talk about that"...or "Talking about that makes me uncomfortable"...crap......sure sometimes I back off...but sometimes I just tell her we HAVE TO talk about these issues.....

So that has really changed our sex life....from 1-2 times per week to 3-5 times per week....even an occasional 2x in a single day on a weekend...or sex at bedtime and then sex again upon awakening the next day....those types of things were very rare in the first 22 years of my marriage. It was almost like there used to be a "sex quota" and when she met that I could not expect more.

Now its more like...if we have time, she feels relaxed, and I can either stimulate her myself or use a movie to stimulate her there is no upper limit to sex set in her mind. 

In addition, she has far more O's...although she still needs to do herself with her fingers at the end...we can get her a lot closer with other techniques and instead of one every 2 months or something, she seems to be having one pretty much every week with me (and who knows maybe she masturbates once in a while too?)...and she has multiples always when she does have them...seems like the O goes on for several minutes....2-5 minutes sometimes...wow....wish I had that....I get about a couple seconds right guys!

And the other difference is kissing......she used to hardly ever kiss during sex...well much less than now....so overall passion thermometer level is up.

She KNOWS that I expect this.....she knows I need and want her to want me.

So did anything I did cause this....haha...or maybe many things I have done WRONG over the years have INHIBITED her....of course neither of us knew what was going on so...we did make a little progress with some therapy 7 years ago...but nothing like now.

OR maybe all this is just her 45 year old hormonal changes?

I find she is most receptive to towards the end of her period and then for the next 2 weeks up to ovulation time and the week after...and least receptive/interested in the week before her period although she never had any mood changes with cycle or PMS....although I could be reading into things...

Anyway.....Im much happier now...although my wife knows Im constantly judging her...I demanded she start working less this year and she has (by the way...less work = more relaxed time = more time for sex also).

All this from a woman who told me 3 years ago and then reiterated during an argument 7 months ago "Sex is not an important part of my life.."

All this from a woman who told me during a MC session 6 months ago that she resented being told she should have sex with me more often.

Now her sworn statement is that what she ACTUALLY said was "sex is not as important to me as it is to you.."....but she actually DID SAY "sex is not an important part of my life." and the other statement in the past maybe 3 years ago...was about how she preferred to have her O's ALONE...without me there.

Now I have not asked again, but I figure if she is willing to do it 4 times this weekend (Fri night, Sat am, Sat night, Sun am) and she initiated it at least two of those times and was perfectly receptive or it was mutual the other 2 times...

and its been like this for months.....sex 3-4 times a weekend and perhaps 1x during the week...(but sometimes not...sometimes I'm actually not really in the mood either...although I wish she would do me on workday mornings...its not going to happen...she sleeps as long as possible and then bursts out of bed to get ready for work and Im lucky to get a peck).

anyway...sex wise.....what did I do to help this along? Well I made it really uncomfortable for her to be non sexual...like...she knows we are through..100% chance....and Ive done everything I possibly can to make her feel more comfortable with her sexuality....

So...this weekend....well I watched the movies she likes, also I showed her a full frontal of one of the actors she likes under the table when we were out at dinner...and we discussed the guys penis...

Not my first choice....ok...but Im realizing that I have to accept HER sexuality....and not try to mold her to accept MY sexuality...since Im the much more flexible sexual person....

Also, like it says in the Calle Zorro material...you have to get them thinking about sex well before you are going for it.....I try to figure out what I need to starting on Friday to get my wife interested in sex that night and how I can start leading her mind in that direction even as she leaves for work......

To be honest..I resent it...it would be nice if we could just expect them to jump us....but they seem to need to be led into it, anticipate it, be ready for it, "make time" for it, have other crap off their minds, ugh.

Well she can SAY...sex is not an important part of her life all she wants, (Im NOT asking her that question again anyway), but Im more interested in what she DOES....and in this case she is doing IT.

Now before you all think Ive found heaven....she might not do me for 4 -5 days in a row if its a hard work week.....

But again, Im not saying this to brag...although Im pretty happy about all this last month or two....Im saying to the OP that one CAN go from a non passionate sex life to a very passionate one.....even though I never had a sexless relationship (but I am 100% sure that if I had ALLOWED my wife to avoid sex for most of our marriage she WOULD HAVE AVOIDED IT...she was never into it from the first night we slept together she never had O's and she never initiated sex during our early days)...it was not passionate on her end for a very long time.

(1) You have GOT TO FIGURE OUT WHAT SHE LIKES! 

(2)And you have GOT TO SHAKE THINGS UP AND SCARE THE CRUD OUT OF HER ABOUT NOT HAVING REGULAR SEX!


----------



## Lyris

BookOfJob said:


> I started reading the book "Sex at Dawn" and I couldn't finish it. It just came across to me as a pro-divorce book, with biology as the main excuse.
> 
> Reading you post, Lyris, I thought, "Oh I can do that too. Just take away my reason and accountability(*) and I will turn into a biological automaton."
> 
> But then I read your disclaimer in bold. I really hope that many women think like you.
> 
> I believe we have evolved long enough, and that we shouldn't be dictated by biology alone.
> 
> (*) this, by the way, is a quote from a movie but maybe it is the truth for some people?


I thought afterwards, I hoped I'd made it clear that I didn't think this was just something inevitable, and you know, sucks to be you type thing. 

Glad you noticed the bolded comment. Because I myself am a walking refutation of the necessity of loss of female desire. I've been with my husband more than 20 years, and I am still very attracted to him and we have sex often. 

But the idea still resonates and I can easily imagine a less naturally high drive woman totally losing interest in sex with her husband, but being awakened by someone unfamiliar. I also really, really love my husband and his happiness is very important to me. I always thought that was just a normal part of marriage, but I've come to see from these boards that's not necessarily the case.


----------



## Saki

Cre8ify said:


> Deida describes their essence as a churning ocean, dynamic, fluid, and unpredictable. A woman's reality is the emotion of the moment. Whew...who knew!


:



jaquen said:


> I'm not sure what's going on here at TAM today, but I am reading some of the most egregious, ignorant statements.
> 
> Women don't solve problems? They're not interested in solutions?
> 
> WTF?





Lyris said:


> Just when I am ready to dismiss all the men on TAM as ignorant ****heads, there you are, restoring my faith.


I hope people are paying attention when they read stuff on this forum


----------



## maincourse99

This whole game disgusts me. At the risk of getting vilified, does it really have to be this complicated? 

My wife left for another man last August. We have an 11 yo daughter. Our sex life was 2-3 times per week, I was happy with that. We had regular date nights. I made all major decisions, always worked and provided home, car, vacations.

I maintained the house, did all the yard work, am in excellent shape, have male friends, play competitive sports blah, blah.

She always talked about us being together forever and being in love with me, right up until she left. 

Now that D is final, she is starting to regret what she did and is telling me she is having trouble "getting over me".

Certainly no marriage is perfect, but what the h*ll? Just too much work IMO to have to make it my job to play these mind games. 

For whatever reason, she got tired and bored with me. She was sexually and emotionally abused as a child, contributing factor? I just can't be bothered anymore with this crap. 

I'm 51 and at peace being alone. I have a daughter to raise, a job and a house, plenty to keep me occupied. I no longer care to try to figure out women and their "needs".


----------



## Caribbean Man

maincourse99 said:


> Now that D is final, she is starting to regret what she did and is telling me she is having trouble "getting over me".
> 
> *I'm 51 and at peace being alone. I have a daughter to raise, a job and a house, plenty to keep me occupied. I no longer care to try to figure out women and their "needs"*.


Good,
Then maybe you should just _continue_ moving on with your life.
You played your part , she played her games, now she's having a hard time *_ getting over you_ *
Why would you want her back in your life?

A guy who was in a similar situation to yours made a statement in post last week. He said :

".._.The opposite of love is not hate, its indifference_..."

IMO, it doesn't matter what she says or does with her life now.
What matters is whether you have learned from the experience , and you and your daughter's future.


----------



## southern wife

*Re: Finally read NMMNG*



sinnister said:


> I also don't do a lot of my hobbies anymore. I can see it in her eyes that I turn her off by lack of physical activity. She married an athlete not the fat phock I am now. But some days no amount of painkillers can stop my knee pain...so I just veg and do nothing.


sinnister, why not ease your way back into your hobbies? 

What happened to your knee?


----------



## sinnister

maincourse99 said:


> This whole game disgusts me. At the risk of getting vilified, does it really have to be this complicated?
> 
> My wife left for another man last August. We have an 11 yo daughter. Our sex life was 2-3 times per week, I was happy with that. We had regular date nights. I made all major decisions, always worked and provided home, car, vacations.
> 
> I maintained the house, did all the yard work, am in excellent shape, have male friends, play competitive sports blah, blah.
> 
> She always talked about us being together forever and being in love with me, right up until she left.
> 
> Now that D is final, she is starting to regret what she did and is telling me she is having trouble "getting over me".
> 
> Certainly no marriage is perfect, but what the h*ll? Just too much work IMO to have to make it my job to play these mind games.
> 
> For whatever reason, she got tired and bored with me. She was sexually and emotionally abused as a child, contributing factor? I just can't be bothered anymore with this crap.
> 
> I'm 51 and at peace being alone. I have a daughter to raise, a job and a house, plenty to keep me occupied. I no longer care to try to figure out women and their "needs".


I tend to agree. I see a lot of presumambly "alpha" traits in myself that one would think would have bought me enough that intimacy would never be an issue.

I get that it's a lifestyle change in most cases for the better to implement the recommendations in these guides, but it feels like head games at times.


----------



## FalconKing

sinnister how's it going anyway, man? Any progress?


----------



## maincourse99

_Good,
Then maybe you should just continue moving on with your life.
You played your part , she played her games, now she's having a hard time * getting over you *
Why would you want her back in your life?

A guy who was in a similar situation to yours made a statement in post last week. He said :

"...The opposite of love is not hate, its indifference..."

IMO, it doesn't matter what she says or does with her life now.
What matters is whether you have learned from the experience , and you and your daughter's future._

I definitely don't want her back. I've learned a lot, which is one very good thing to come out of this. Yes, indifference. It's been only 10 months and I'm getting close. I believe that you could apply all the advice from the "experts", give it your all, and still there's this other person who you have no control over.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Lyris said:


> The truth is, it's hard for humans to keep being attracted to the same person decade after decade. Men generally have higher testosterone, so they can carry on regardless. Women stop being interested in their husbands sexually after a few years and unless there's great love and a highish drive, they won't get it back and most of them won't understand why it's gone. it's not generally known that women find it easier to get aroused by an unfamiliar partner.





Lyris said:


> And Naga, I'd say between 4 and 7 years sounds about right. It's probably connected somehow to the natural weaning age of children.


Wow, that is just depressing to read for an unmarried guy lol.

That's it, I'm going to play the field and buy a dog if I ever get lonely in an empty house.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Wow, that is just depressing to read for an unmarried guy lol.
> 
> That's it, I'm going to play the field and buy a dog if I ever get lonely in an empty house.


This is why you have to keep doing your're thing. As Lyris stated, some women get bored. Not very encouraging. If you keep improving yourself because you want to, you will automatically change yourself and you have a better chance of keeping that interest going. I do understand what you are saying, though. I have read this thread as well. It is a very enlightening thread. 

It all fits with the MMSL or NMMNG theme. Love, but be aloof. Commit, but take care of yourself first. I cannot love properly unless I love and take care of me first. We just have to be careful not to get too bitter. It's difficult, though.

On a side note; dogs are very loyal and will be very glad to see you when you are home. They are also a responsibility. I do miss my dog. Had a german shepherd years ago. She was beautiful and would have killed(I think literally) for me. I cried when I had to find a new caretaker for her. I went back to see her five years after giving her away. She looked beautiful. I picked the right man to take care of her. He told me to be careful. She might not remember me. I walked up slowly to the porch where she was and sat down. She smelled my ears, LOL, and started kissing me. God, I miss her.


----------



## fetishwife

This is so common. My wife gets crushes on movie stars and they get pretty serious as far as I can tell.

Her BF thinks about someone else when having sex with her husband of many years....she said it was getting boring for her....(he found an email she wrote about that issue to a female friend and they fought about it).

I guess its often the women that get bored....not the men as culture and media implies get bored with wives and want to mess around...

Maybe the Testosterone makes you less picky!

I just read a study that said that when women are more sexually proactive they tend to get MORE PICKY about the men that they desire and pursue...

On the other hand..when men are more sexually proactive they get LESS picky!

It makes evolutionary sense also.

My wife is not aroused my me like she is by some idiot movie star...her lower brain thinks she should have sex with that male who it seems as good DNA stock.....then her general sexual arousal level goes up and it can get reflected onto me since Im available.

I dont think its anything my wife does that makes me want to have sex with her....its just intrinsic to me that I want to do it...her or someone else would be fine.

For her...if her general drive is low.....I guess Im not worth it to her lower brain...so she stays unaroused generally.


----------



## sinnister

FalconKing said:


> sinnister how's it going anyway, man? Any progress?


Mini strides. With some inspiring posts from some others here I've started a training plan again. Been a month so far and I'm seeing pretty good gains...or loses as it were.

Not much improvements in terms of intimacy or her desire but I'm not sure that's my goal anymore. Right now I'm more focused on becoming that crazy-good looking dude I once was and let the chips fall where they may.

I get the obligatory half-hearted oral every 3 to 4 weeks to placate my desire for a while, but I'm sure as any man with a pulse will agree....that is not enough.

I said this before in another post but I was put in a situation a few months ago that I was clearly and directly "offered" a NSA good time with a woman 10 years my junior. Saying how much I love my wife had zero effect on this woman. I couldn't do it. I WANTED to do it. I just couldn't. In the end the only contact I made with her was a fist bump...which pretty much announced my intentions.

But I'm a guy with HD. I still look back on that day...well days as it happened a couple of times after that - like it was the wrong move. 

This is what happens when you're in the desert dying of thirst. You're going to want water, and you're not going to give a damn which company supplies it.


----------



## Caribbean Man

sinnister said:


> Mini strides. With some inspiring posts from some others here* I've started a training plan again. Been a month so far and I'm seeing pretty good gains...or loses as it were.
> *


When you said " Train plan" do you mean that you started back working out in the gym?

If so then congrats!

Also good that you are doing it for YOURSELF, no matter what the outcome, it improves your options , _tremendously_.


----------



## sinnister

Caribbean Man said:


> When you said " Train plan" do you mean that you started back working out in the gym?
> 
> If so then congrats!
> 
> Also good that you are doing it for YOURSELF, no matter what the outcome, it improves your options , _tremendously_.


Actually not gym this time. Starting at home first. Have some free weights and a pretty heavy duty treadmill at home so I'm using that. Down almost 10 lbs so far.


----------



## Rags

<OT>

Sorry - but (and this probably says a lot about me) what I got from the OP was:

"Hate reading"
and
"Closet intellectual"

Huh? How can one be any sort of intellectual, and hate reading?



</OT>


----------



## sinnister

Rags said:


> <OT>
> 
> Sorry - but (and this probably says a lot about me) what I got from the OP was:
> 
> "Hate reading"
> and
> "Closet intellectual"
> 
> Huh? How can one be any sort of intellectual, and hate reading?
> 
> 
> 
> </OT>


Sorry. Let me clarify. I read plenty. 

Just not most of the crap other people read. And relationship help books for the most part are "duh...no sht" Dr. Phil styled BS.

Better?


----------



## Rags

sinnister said:


> Sorry. Let me clarify. I read plenty.
> 
> Just not most of the crap other people read. And relationship help books for the most part are "duh...no sht" Dr. Phil styled BS.
> 
> Better?


Yeah, that's much better!

My world view is back in kilter. Thanks.


----------



## sinnister

As a semi update.

I can't figure this chick out. Could it be that the (very minimal at this point) results that I've acheived in my body transformation have sparked something?

I didn't really have to say a word this weekend. I just sort of gave her the look and it was on. I haven't really changed all that much body wise. Could that be the cause of all of this BS? My long lasting treaty with the fat gods? Not saying this is a permanent change but something was way different about how it all went down. 

If this is indeed the case than I've been a stupid, mornic idiot and deserved my fate. It was so simple I couldn't see it. I suspected of course...but to actually get a result so quickly? Time will tell if things are improving so my hopes aren't trending up yet. I've changed (physically) too far from what I was when I attracted her and she just never had the heart (or cojones) to tell me.


----------



## Deejo

There are of handful of examples on the boards where guys got ridiculously positive results for extraordinarily little effort.

It all depends upon where you are on the scale of your spouses resentment/disinterest.

Sometimes all it takes is for you (the man) to start taking pride in ownership of yourself once again. It doesn't matter if it is an interest in your physical appearance, your attitude, or your hobbies and interests. If your spouse is even still mildly attracted to you, any boost in what you like about yourself, is generally going to trigger a boost in what she likes about you as well.

Accomplishing, doing, acting, is fundamentally attractive.

Ruminating, rationalizing, and procrastinating is not.


----------



## Caribbean Man

sinnister said:


> I've changed (physically) too far from what I was when I attracted her and she just never had the heart (or cojones) to tell me.


self realization is a powerful thing.
As I keep repeating ad nuseam , there are certain things your woman would never tell you.

These are things you must figure out on your own , and work on them. 
Its what defines men and makes women attracted in a number of ways to us. 

Some of us men are clueless ,that's why " _being yourself _" is not good advice and never works. Its what got you in that position in the first place so how could it change the negative dynamic?

Men should constantly work on themselves.


----------



## 41362

Sometimes actions do speak much louder than words. It sounds as if your effort has been noticed...


----------



## Cre8ify

There is confidence in a man with mission and purpose. Confidence is attractive. Keep layering on the changes...better shape...volunteer in important roles you are passionate about...hang with your buds and play cards...take the ladies off the pedestals...be just a step less available than she would like...and be steady, like a rock for her.


----------



## sinnister

Caribbean Man said:


> self realization is a powerful thing.
> As I keep repeating ad nuseam , there are certain things your woman would never tell you.
> 
> These are things you must figure out on your own , and work on them.
> Its what defines men and makes women attracted in a number of ways to us.
> 
> Some of us men are clueless ,that's why " _being yourself _" is not good advice and never works. Its what got you in that position in the first place so how could it change the negative dynamic?
> 
> Men should constantly work on themselves.


So true CM. Words to live by. Complacency caused this mess.


----------



## FalconKing

sinnister said:


> So true CM. Words to live by. Complacency caused this mess.


It's easy to see how this happened. You have a family and a job, and you had an injury. Of course you want to get back in shape but so many other things just seem so important. So many other immediate things to worry about. Happens all the time.


----------



## Caribbean Man

FalconKing said:


> It's easy to see how this happened. You have a family and a job, and you had an injury. Of course you want to get back in shape but so many other things just seem so important. So many other immediate things to worry about. Happens all the time.


I agree with you falcon.
Sometimes just being a man is difficult., but being _that kind of man_ to live up to your wife , your family, your employer , your community and your own expectations are hard.

Sinnister, I hope you continue doing whatever you have started, and like I said earlier in this thread, I like your attitude towards it!


----------



## sinnister

FalconKing said:


> It's easy to see how this happened. You have a family and a job, and you had an injury. Of course you want to get back in shape but so many other things just seem so important. So many other immediate things to worry about. Happens all the time.


Yup. That's how it happened. You get hurt. Have some kiddies. And before you know it you're a different person.

@CM - Thanks. I will go at it with gusto.


----------



## Saki

David Deida's The Way of the Superior Man is good companion reading for MMSL.

He says stuff like "you were born a sacrifice" "your woman will always be difficult, don't expect she will ever change" etc etc

In your face "look this is the way it is, it isn't easy, you don't have a choice, man up" stuff. But written...better than I can.

In other words, it is hard, but complaining about it dosent make it any easier, and pussing out of it isn't really a (good) option


----------



## sinnister

Saki said:


> David Deida's The Way of the Superior Man is good companion reading for MMSL.
> 
> He says stuff like "you were born a sacrifice" "your woman will always be difficult, don't expect she will ever change" etc etc
> 
> In your face "look this is the way it is, it isn't easy, you don't have a choice, man up" stuff. But written...better than I can.
> 
> In other words, it is hard, but complaining about it dosent make it any easier, and pussing out of it isn't really a (good) option


Thanks Saki. I'm going to check that out.

I prefer that style "self help". Do it or don't but don't btch about it is more my speed.


----------



## Deejo

I thought some of Deida's stuff was absolutely fantastic.

Others were absolute crap. Didn't buy it at all. But without a doubt, there are some gems.


----------



## Saki

I don't figure anyone's got it all right. I read some of Athol's blog posts about playing WoW for "only" 7 hours a week and can only think to myself "this guy is so far off" but then he writes tons of stuff that makes sense too, so...

I guess what I find interesting is the way many of the men's self help authors who have helped me (listed below) repeat common themes and concepts, but always do it in different ways. When you hear the same thing said 4 different ways...sometimes it starts to sink in (finally).

Dr Robert Glover (NMMNG)
David Deida (The way of the superior man, others)
Athol Kay (MMSL)
Levine (How to hold onto your NUTS)
Melonie Beattie (Co Dependant no more)


----------



## FalconKing

Deejo said:


> I thought some of Deida's stuff was absolutely fantastic.
> 
> Others were absolute crap. Didn't buy it at all. But without a doubt, there are some gems.


I actually own The way of the Superior Man as a pdf. Some of the concepts I agree with and some leave me giving a heavy sigh. He pretty much says that the more feminine your woman is the more emotional and at times unreasonable she might be. He also talks about how some women say one thing and latter on do something completely different. They don't lie because they are making their decisions based on an emotional state. I'm sure we've all met or known(or married) women like this. He advises men to just accept this and learn to expect and embrace this. Be humored by it and not frustrated. If you try to change this in a woman it may effect her femininity which may effect her sexuality and her state of freedom. I feel like that means I should not always expect a woman to mean what she says. I don't think I like that.


----------



## Saki

I got to places in TWOTSM (the way of the superior man) where I couldn't stand reading more than a chapter a night.

I'd read a chapter, and be so incredibly deflated by what I read, I had to put it down for a few weeks. Then I'd pick it up and repeat. I went through a month or 6 weeks or so of pretty severe depression after reading those parts.

Having digested the info, and recovered from the ego blow caused by the implications of the material, it's easy to OBSERVE how his material relates to real life. In fact I see it more often then not when reading the female posts on this forum.

Some of the concepts, like the whole "your woman isn't lying when she says something that does not reflect reality" - I don't like it. I don't think it's "right" (morally). It's frustrating.

Yet I see it play out exactly the way Deida describes again and again.

Once I ACCEPTED his position, it allowed me to disassociate myself, and my ego, from situations where my wife or other females (men too in some cases) were lying to me. I understand whats going on, I can see the mechanics. In the end, the understanding of it helps me be a happier man.

It's very much a red pill concept.


----------



## sinnister

So two years later of the same old story I've become quite the bitter poster on Tam.

It's natural....I probably have just as much semen coursing through my veins as blood due to lack of intimacy. This morning I tried a tam method.

I just didn't ask. I just went for it. Even in the midst of all the chaos of early morning work prep, I was met with a surprising acceptance. She was willing.

For the life of me I can't figure this chick out.:scratchhead:


----------



## soccermom2three

How were initiations before? Tentative and squishy?

Sometimes a woman likes a man that's large (figuratively) and in charge.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Finally read NMMNG*

I still default to the same position. Forget trying to figure the chick out.

Know yourself, and behave in a way that fulfills you, and adheres to your own personal code.

And if the chick you're with isn't down with that ... go find one that is.


----------



## Wolf1974

sinnister said:


> So two years later of the same old story I've become quite the bitter poster on Tam.
> 
> It's natural....I probably have just as much semen coursing through my veins as blood due to lack of intimacy. This morning I tried a tam method.
> 
> I just didn't ask. I just went for it. Even in the midst of all the chaos of early morning work prep, I was met with a surprising acceptance. She was willing.
> 
> For the life of me *I can't figure this chick out.*:scratchhead:


Dunno sounds like you kinda just did


----------



## FeministInPink

soccermom2three said:


> How were initiations before? Tentative and squishy?
> 
> Sometimes a woman likes a man that's large (figuratively) and in charge.


There's something very primal about a man (a partner, not just any random dude on the street!) who just takes you. It makes a woman feel desired, as if he wants her so much that he can't wait until it's "appropriate." It would be a total turn on for me. If my ex-husband had done more of that, we probably wouldn't have gotten divorced.

It also shows you being alpha, which even the strong-headed gals like, and in control.

I'd say if it works, stick with it, sinnister.


----------



## sinnister

FeministInPink said:


> There's something very primal about a man (a partner, not just any random dude on the street!) who just takes you. It makes a woman feel desired, as if he wants her so much that he can't wait until it's "appropriate." It would be a total turn on for me. If my ex-husband had done more of that, we probably wouldn't have gotten divorced.
> 
> It also shows you being alpha, which even the strong-headed gals like, and in control.
> 
> I'd say if it works, stick with it, sinnister.


I'm going to keep with the suggestions. One of our heated discussions this weekend was more about my lack of effort with the kids than me personally. We just have a difference of opinion on child rearing. I was raised to be strong and independent so I expect to do the same with my kids. She was raised almost completely as an afterthought left to figure things out on her own while her brother got all the attention. Now she constantly intervenes and plans their lives to the point of exhaustion. (My 8 year old is literally exhausted from Swimming, soccer, rugby, basketball, gymnastics, skating and track and field on top of math tutoring 2 times per week).

She resents me for not "being involved" enough in their lives. When I ask for a definition because I think I am plenty, she says I dont take them out enough to do activities. My rebuttal? When the F do we have time to do that? We literrally fly home from work get the kids ready and fly out the door to an activity every day of the week. It's not uncommon for us to eat supper at 9pm on a school night.

Anyways, it's clear she has her own childhood demons she's dealing with and I'm an easy target because I'm not on board. 

To be clear, she also reiterate that's its impossible to be attracted to a guy who's become "fat and lazy". She didnt come up with those words, she just re-used them after I did. Still hurt. But she's right. Gotta keep up the weight loss.

Won't make a bit of difference though...her problem with me is as a father, which in my mind is not fixable.


----------



## FeministInPink

Sinnister, it sounds like you guys need to find some middle ground on parenting. I don't have kids, but that seems like a crazy amount of activities for your kid to be doing! But I get where your wife was coming from (I was largely ignored while my little sis got all the attention), as far as wanting to be super-involved. It seems to me that her expectations for you to be MORE involved are such that there's no way you could possibly meet them, which makes me wonder if this is a faux "reason."

Hopefully some of the parents on here can give you some practical advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

sinnister said:


> Now she constantly intervenes and plans their lives to the point of exhaustion. (*My 8 year old is literally exhausted from Swimming, soccer, rugby, basketball, gymnastics, skating and track and field on top of math tutoring 2 times per week).*


It's the parent trap. NFW would my wife and I ever put one of our kids in so many activities. As our kids get older, they will be limited to 2 or 3 activities max - not counting lessons for things like instruments or swimming. This is your main problem right here. You two aren't intimate because you two don't spend time together. You don't spend time together because you (your wife) is wrapping almost all of the time available into the kid. 

Honestly, I'd tell the wife to pick 2 activities only, and the rest have to go. Math tutoring is not included in that. I'd then tell her that if you two don't spend more alone time together (not talking sex here) to reconnect as a couple, then the marriage will fail. It's as simple as that.


----------



## thenub

I have two daughters in gymnastics. One of them is in a competitive program and the other has been asked to consider going into the competitive program. Luckily our jobs are flexible enough to allow us time to pick them up from school as they start training at 4:30 three and four days a week. That is 28 hours a week for them at the gym. We drop them off and watch for a while then try run errands until they are finished. 
As you mentioned.... When the "f" do I have time??? You are right!! Your child is involved in way to many activities. It almost sounds like your wife is reliving her missed childhood through your kids. Ask the kids if they want to be doing all those things. Chances are if they drop a couple of the activities they may not need the tutoring. 
How does your wife react when the children have a bad day or make an obvious mistake, say during a rugby match? Does she harp on them about it? Does she get angry at the referees? I support my girls 100% in what they are doing, if they fall off the beam or don't stick a landing it's no big deal. I just ask them after things like that happen if they had fun. If they say yes, that's all that matters.
Talk to your wife about the number of things he has them involved in and see if maybe she'll agree to ask the kids what they want to do. It's hard for a kid to live up to so many expectations. 

My 2c


----------



## FalconKing

Sinnister, following your story I always felt your wife was a hard one to figure out. But now it really seems rather clear. She just made you an after thought as she became consumed with motherhood. You are hoping to at some point reconnect with your wife. She'll want to reconnect with you when the kids are gone because there will not be anyone else she can talk to. IMO. 

I wsh she could post here(well not really). But she needs somebody to call her out on what she is doing in her marriage. Somebody besides you, because she has decided your wants don't really matter. I am not saying she is the wicked witch. Obviously there are things you guys could both do to improve the situation but it seems like you are the only one trying.


----------



## FeministInPink

Plan 9 from OS said:


> It's the parent trap. NFW would my wife and I ever put one of our kids in so many activities. As our kids get older, they will be limited to 2 or 3 activities max - not counting lessons for things like instruments or swimming. This is your main problem right here. You two aren't intimate because you two don't spend time together. You don't spend time together because you (your wife) is wrapping almost all of the time available into the kid.
> 
> Honestly, I'd tell the wife to pick 2 activities only, and the rest have to go. Math tutoring is not included in that. *I'd then tell her that if you two don't spend more alone time together (not talking sex here) to reconnect as a couple, then the marriage will fail. It's as simple as that.*


According to Marriage Builders, couples need to spend 15 hrs per week together--WITHOUT KIDS--to meet each other's basic needs of affection, conversation, sex, and companionship.

Not Enough Time Together #1

And it definitely sounds like she's prioritizing the children over you and the marriage, which is a relationship killer right there. I'm not saying that the kids aren't a priority, but there needs to be balance to maintain a healthy relationship.


----------



## sinnister

FalconKing said:


> Sinnister, following your story I always felt your wife was a hard one to figure out. But now it really seems rather clear. She just made you an after thought as she became consumed with motherhood. You are hoping to at some point reconnect with your wife. She'll want to reconnect with you when the kids are gone because there will not be anyone else she can talk to. IMO.
> 
> I wsh she could post here(well not really). But she needs somebody to call her out on what she is doing in her marriage. Somebody besides you, because she has decided your wants don't really matter. I am not saying she is the wicked witch. Obviously there are things you guys could both do to improve the situation but it seems like you are the only one trying.


That's exactly it. I am the only one trying.

I've tried to tell her it's too much. My kids have too. She thinks they're just lazy just like me. 

I've told her I want to spend time with her to reconnect but their is literally not enough time in a week. And on the off chance we do have the time, she chooses an activity where we can't communicate...like the movies. 

We're just going in circles here.

Listen, I'm a bottom line kind of guy. I get we won't ever see eye to eye on this and it is a pretty big marriage killer. Just like my weight gain. I know this marriage is not sustainable. We're already strangers in the same house. I'm not going to try anymore though. My confidence and pride have taken too big a hit with this woman. 

When the kids finally burn out I won't tell her I told her so. Hell I may not even be there to do so. Sucks that we've come to this. She's really a great person. She has such a good heart and she's cute too. 

Trying to get this back on track is difficult though because she's so all over the map. She sent me an email just now about taking up an activity together so we can spend more time with one another. :scratchhead:

She hasn't mentioned anything like that in about 5 years!

I'd like to think it's the pounding I gave her last week. J/K (Don't kill me ladies...it was a joke).


----------



## john117

I never did the multiple activities unless related to academics. Did piano k-12 and Kumon math k-9 for both girls, art classes 9-12 grade for the older and French 6-12 for the younger. 

Both girls did gymnastics early for a couple years but were not into it. No sports - but a few art competitions and so on.

The lessons paid off handsomely. Older girl is an ace student in design, and younger is double majoring in French having saved a ton of money in college credit via placement test (she's nearly bilingual). Both are fit and trim (younger bikes with me in the summers, the older runs) but no organized sports.

Burning out is an issue but you have to teach them how to get close to burn out! Both girls know by now


----------



## thenub

Maybe it's time to Alpha up!! She wants to do an activity with you to spend time together? TELL HER you'll pick the activity. Also TELL HER you will ask the kids which of their activities they want to give up and take them out. Time to be a leader. 
I've been reading MMSLP as well as NMMNG. I have found my wife responds as laid out in those books. Maybe your wife will too. I've lost 6-8 pounds in the last 2 1/2 weeks by eating healthier and less. Eating 3 meals a day instead of two. Walking the dog 3or 4 times farther than I normally would have. The biggest thing is I stopped eating anything after 8pm unless it's a carrot or some other veggie (no dips). 
She saw me doing this and came right out and asked if I had a girlfriend. I told her no but was going to ask her if SHE would be my girlfriend. She even said yes with a sexy grin. Now she is following suit, eating better, asking if she can join me on my walks. If it wasn't so damn cold out I'm sure she'd be holding my hand as we walk. Almost feels like we're dating again.
So, ya, start telling instead of asking or suggesting and see how she responds. Just make sure you still help out around the house too.


----------



## sinnister

thenub said:


> Maybe it's time to Alpha up!! She wants to do an activity with you to spend time together? TELL HER you'll pick the activity. Also TELL HER you will ask the kids which of their activities they want to give up and take them out. Time to be a leader.
> I've been reading MMSLP as well as NMMNG. I have found my wife responds as laid out in those books. Maybe your wife will too. I've lost 6-8 pounds in the last 2 1/2 weeks by eating healthier and less. Eating 3 meals a day instead of two. Walking the dog 3or 4 times farther than I normally would have. The biggest thing is I stopped eating anything after 8pm unless it's a carrot or some other veggie (no dips).
> She saw me doing this and came right out and asked if I had a girlfriend. I told her no but was going to ask her if SHE would be my girlfriend. She even said yes with a sexy grin. Now she is following suit, eating better, asking if she can join me on my walks. If it wasn't so damn cold out I'm sure she'd be holding my hand as we walk. Almost feels like we're dating again.
> So, ya, start telling instead of asking or suggesting and see how she responds. Just make sure you still help out around the house too.


Great advice here.

Sorry about the late response, it's been crazy in Ottawa with what's going on.

The manning up Alpha stuff is great. But what is lost on me here is that I already WAS this way naturally! Thats how I scored such a hot wife. But now the problem is she's always been naturally assertive as well. And doesn't really take that crap from me or anybody else in her life. So If I just say, we're taking them out of Gymnastics she silently simmers until she errupts on me a month or two later holding on to the resentment.

It's just not worth the fight anymore. She seems to be receptive when i plan activities for just the two of us...but if there is even the hint of physical intimacy afterwards she balks.

So I think the best course of action right now is to let her lead the marriage...right into the gutter. I already know it's headed there but dont have the strength to steer it in the right direction anymore.

I do need to get back on track with my weight loss though. Need to start lifting again.


----------



## FeministInPink

sinnister said:


> Great advice here.
> 
> Sorry about the late response, it's been crazy in Ottawa with what's going on.
> 
> The manning up Alpha stuff is great. But what is lost on me here is that I already WAS this way naturally! Thats how I scored such a hot wife. But now the problem is she's always been naturally assertive as well. And doesn't really take that crap from me or anybody else in her life. So If I just say, we're taking them out of Gymnastics* she silently simmers until she errupts on me a month or two later holding on to the resentment*.
> 
> It's just not worth the fight anymore. She seems to be receptive when i plan activities for just the two of us...but if there is even the hint of physical intimacy afterwards she balks.
> 
> So I think the best course of action right now is to let her lead the marriage...right into the gutter. I already know it's headed there but dont have the strength to steer it in the right direction anymore.
> 
> I do need to get back on track with my weight loss though. Need to start lifting again.


Between this and previous posts, it sounds like your wife has some issues of her own that she needs to work through if your marriage is going to survive.

Has she been to counseling/therapy at all? Obviously, her communication style isn't healthy or productive, and she has some clear hang-ups about her family of origin.


----------



## sinnister

FeministInPink said:


> Between this and previous posts, it sounds like your wife has some issues of her own that she needs to work through if your marriage is going to survive.
> 
> Has she been to counseling/therapy at all? Obviously, her communication style isn't healthy or productive, and she has some clear hang-ups about her family of origin.


Like most people who are doing it wrong, she thinks she doesn't need counselling because I'm the one who's wrong in her mind.

There are just too many excuses for no intimacy. She's too tired, I'm too lazy, I'm too fat, I don't do enough with the kids, I didnt help her out enough when she was pregnant...blah blah blah.

All of those are excuses. There are plenty of women who still have intimacy with their husbands even if those things were true. Bottom line is she's just not in to me. There are two options. 1) stick it out for the kids or 2) leave or wait for her to leave.

Neither are good options but life isn't always fair. This is not fixable if only one of us wants to fix it. She does at least acknowledge that there is a problem now but there is no possible way that I can fix it. I can't do more with the kids there just isnt enough time in the day. I can't do MORE around the house I already do all the outside stuff, + the dog, minor maintenance all the groceries and ironing and occasional dishes and laundry. She does all the cooking and the majority of dishes and laundry. Most of the homework with the kids and most of the baths for the youngest. To me its a pretty even split but to her I'm not doing jack.

We have a dishwasher by the way.

Anyways, it's come to a point where I'm rambling again. Work on me, get buff again, until the offers start coming in and I find a more suitable partner.


----------



## FeministInPink

sinnister said:


> Like most people who are doing it wrong, she thinks she doesn't need counselling because I'm the one who's wrong in her mind.


Very true. I held this opinion myself before my XH and I went into MC, but during MC I came to realize that there was a lot I was doing it wrong, too. I took that as an opportunity to work on myself and try to work on my issues. Sadly, my XH refused to do the same, and I also came to realize that even if I worked on fixing me, things were never going to get better if he didn't actively work on his own issues. Our therapist recognized this, and during our one-on-one sessions point blank told me that I needed to divorce him so that I could move on and have a happy life.



sinnister said:


> There are just too many excuses for no intimacy. She's too tired, I'm too lazy, I'm too fat, I don't do enough with the kids, I didnt help her out enough when she was pregnant...blah blah blah.
> 
> All of those are excuses. There are plenty of women who still have intimacy with their husbands even if those things were true. Bottom line is she's just not in to me. There are two options. 1) stick it out for the kids or 2) leave or wait for her to leave.


How are your kids faring through all of this? I know that a lot of people stay together for the kids, but a lot of times that's more damaging than helpful, if they see their parents miserable together. They get mixed signals about what marriage and adults relationships are supposed to be like. My XH's parents hate each other, but they stayed together; he always said that he didn't want a marriage like theirs, but he subconsciously recreated their dynamic in our marriage (one of those issues that he refused to recognize).



sinnister said:


> Neither are good options but life isn't always fair. This is not fixable if only one of us wants to fix it. She does at least acknowledge that there is a problem now but there is no possible way that I can fix it. I can't do more with the kids there just isnt enough time in the day. I can't do MORE around the house I already do all the outside stuff, + the dog, minor maintenance all the groceries and ironing and occasional dishes and laundry. She does all the cooking and the majority of dishes and laundry. Most of the homework with the kids and most of the baths for the youngest. To me its a pretty even split but to her I'm not doing jack.
> 
> We have a dishwasher by the way.
> 
> Anyways, it's come to a point where I'm rambling again. Work on me, get buff again, until the offers start coming in and I find a more suitable partner.


Are you familiar with the 180? If not, you should read up on it. You might find it useful.


----------



## WandaJ

sinnister said:


> Like most people who are doing it wrong, she thinks she doesn't need counselling because I'm the one who's wrong in her mind.
> 
> There are just too many excuses for no intimacy. She's too tired, I'm too lazy, I'm too fat, I don't do enough with the kids, I didnt help her out enough when she was pregnant...blah blah blah.
> 
> All of those are excuses. There are plenty of women who still have intimacy with their husbands even if those things were true. Bottom line is she's just not in to me. There are two options. 1) stick it out for the kids or 2) leave or wait for her to leave.
> 
> Neither are good options but life isn't always fair. This is not fixable if only one of us wants to fix it. She does at least acknowledge that there is a problem now but there is no possible way that I can fix it. I can't do more with the kids there just isnt enough time in the day. I can't do MORE around the house I already do all the outside stuff, + the dog, minor maintenance all the groceries and ironing and occasional dishes and laundry. She does all the cooking and the majority of dishes and laundry. Most of the homework with the kids and most of the baths for the youngest. To me its a pretty even split but to her I'm not doing jack.
> 
> We have a dishwasher by the way.
> 
> Anyways, it's come to a point where I'm rambling again. Work on me, get buff again, until the offers start coming in and I find a more suitable partner.


or maybe you need to read thread about sex and house chores...


----------



## MEM2020

Sinnister,

Do you love food, more than you love your wife?

I bet she thinks you do......




sinnister said:


> Like most people who are doing it wrong, she thinks she doesn't need counselling because I'm the one who's wrong in her mind.
> 
> There are just too many excuses for no intimacy. She's too tired, I'm too lazy, I'm too fat, I don't do enough with the kids, I didnt help her out enough when she was pregnant...blah blah blah.
> 
> All of those are excuses. There are plenty of women who still have intimacy with their husbands even if those things were true. Bottom line is she's just not in to me. There are two options. 1) stick it out for the kids or 2) leave or wait for her to leave.
> 
> Neither are good options but life isn't always fair. This is not fixable if only one of us wants to fix it. She does at least acknowledge that there is a problem now but there is no possible way that I can fix it. I can't do more with the kids there just isnt enough time in the day. I can't do MORE around the house I already do all the outside stuff, + the dog, minor maintenance all the groceries and ironing and occasional dishes and laundry. She does all the cooking and the majority of dishes and laundry. Most of the homework with the kids and most of the baths for the youngest. To me its a pretty even split but to her I'm not doing jack.
> 
> We have a dishwasher by the way.
> 
> Anyways, it's come to a point where I'm rambling again. Work on me, get buff again, until the offers start coming in and I find a more suitable partner.


----------



## treyvion

WandaJ said:


> or maybe you need to read thread about sex and house chores...


Which equates to a man is not allowed to win. Help out with the home chores, and he's not as desireable. Does not helps out with the chores is an ass about it, and he gets laid more because he might leave, but he's an *******...

Man... I think I'd rather be the ******* than sexless.:scratchhead:


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> Do you love food, more than you love your wife?



Doesn't everybody?


----------



## sinnister

MEM11363 said:


> Sinnister,
> 
> Do you love food, more than you love your wife?
> 
> I bet she thinks you do......


I dont understand what you mean?

Do you mean because Im still a fatty?


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Finally read NMMNG*

Sinnister:

You equate her lack of desire towards you as loving you less.

Mem is saying she quite possibly equates your extra pounds exactly the same way.

Is it important to her? Attractive spouse is more commonly thought of as a male need, but not exclusively. How highly does she regard it?


----------



## MEM2020

Sinnister,

FWIW: I am sorry your knee pain is so disruptive to your life. I mean that. 

I'll frame this differently. 

If you had been dating her and she let you know that she wanted to sleep with you, but you were going to have to lose the gut first, what would you have done?

I'm thinking that maybe you would have come up with a routine:
- upper body weights
- core training/sit-ups/yoga
- swimming or elliptical 

High protein diet. 

At some level I think you feel that because you are married she should accept you as is. And she feels that marriage is work, and you should make the effort because it's important to her....

I'm not saying she's right. I'm saying that's how she is....








sinnister said:


> I dont understand what you mean?
> 
> Do you mean because Im still a fatty?


----------



## Q tip

It's been two years. You must look like a physical specimen. 2 years at the gym must have transformed you. Not an speck of body fat.

Nothing like being out with your wife and her seeing you being ogled by other ladies. 

Have you done anything in the books you've read. You have 100% control over you in every way. The Alpha comes out naturally.

If you want to melt fat fast, it's heavy weights. Dumb bells, barbells. You aren't working out if you don't do squats. Start light, work past 100 pounds within 3 weeks. 3 sets of 12 reps. Do squats every 4 days. Do other muscle groups in between. Then 3 times a week after any soreness fades. Get a trainer. Be serious, 10 pounds per month is doable. Maybe more at first.

You don't gotta like, you just gotta do it.


----------



## Q tip

sinnister said:


> So two years later of the same old story I've become quite the bitter poster on Tam.
> 
> It's natural....I probably have just as much semen coursing through my veins as blood due to lack of intimacy. This morning I tried a tam method.
> 
> I just didn't ask. I just went for it. Even in the midst of all the chaos of early morning work prep, I was met with a surprising acceptance. She was willing.
> 
> For the life of me I can't figure this chick out.:scratchhead:


No need to figure her out. Take her. You love her. It's all good.


----------



## sinnister

MEM11363 said:


> Sinnister,
> 
> FWIW: I am sorry your knee pain is so disruptive to your life. I mean that.
> 
> I'll frame this differently.
> 
> If you had been dating her and she let you know that she wanted to sleep with you, but you were going to have to lose the gut first, what would you have done?
> 
> I'm thinking that maybe you would have come up with a routine:
> - upper body weights
> - core training/sit-ups/yoga
> - swimming or elliptical
> 
> High protein diet.
> 
> At some level I think you feel that because you are married she should accept you as is. And she feels that marriage is work, and you should make the effort because it's important to her....
> 
> I'm not saying she's right. I'm saying that's how she is....


I think you may be right. She's not one to beat around the bush so I know a lot of it has to do with percieved resentment about me not doing enough....its crazy but it's her reality. I can't win that fight but I can win the weight battle I have with myself.


----------



## MEM2020

Sinnister,

I'm going to say something that isn't viewed as remotely ok in our culture. 

If you get fit and S2 keeps rejecting you, you will easily be able to take away her piece of mind by spending a lot less time at home and flat out refusing to account for your where abouts. 

One thing I am certain of. Your wife is competitive. And the thought of another woman taking her man away from her, would be intolerable. 






sinnister said:


> I think you may be right. She's not one to beat around the bush so I know a lot of it has to do with percieved resentment about me not doing enough....its crazy but it's her reality. I can't win that fight but I can win the weight battle I have with myself.


----------



## Elk87

Agree with Mem^. Also though, be prepared for a stubborn response. That she'll shut down and/or become angry. Then manipulate the situation and blame marriage issues on you not being around.


----------



## naiveonedave

Elk87 said:


> Agree with Mem^. Also though, be prepared for a stubborn response. That she'll shut down and/or become angry. Then manipulate the situation and blame marriage issues on you not being around.


this may be true, but from what I have read in MMSL, it typically isn't.

I think the OP is at the point of considering D over this.


----------



## jaquen

Q tip said:


> It's been two years. You must look like a physical specimen. 2 years at the gym must have transformed you. Not an speck of body fat....If you want to melt fat fast, it's heavy weights. Dumb bells, barbells. You aren't working out if you don't do squats. Start light, work past 100 pounds within 3 weeks. 3 sets of 12 reps. Do squats every 4 days. Do other muscle groups in between. Then 3 times a week after any soreness fades. Get a trainer. Be serious, 10 pounds per month is doable. Maybe more at first.
> 
> You don't gotta like, you just gotta do it.


No, "two years at the gym" and "heavy lifting" wouldn't get you a lean, low fat body, or "melt fat" much at all.

Plenty of guys hit the gym year after year, building muscle, but look like they're on an endless dirty bulk with dozens of pounds of excess fat covering their progress. That fat-bulky look is much more common than a truly leaned out, ripped physique because too many men don't realize that 80-90% of fat loss is diet.


----------



## Elk87

jaquen said:


> No, "two years at the gym" and "heavy lifting" wouldn't get you a lean, low fat body, or "melt fat" much at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Plenty of guys hit the gym year after year, building muscle, but look like they're on an endless dirty bulk with dozens of pounds of excess fat covering their progress. That fat-bulky look is much more common than a truly leaned out, ripped physique because too many men don't realize that 80-90% of fat loss is diet.



Also, mixing up your workouts is crucial. Don't get stuck or fixated on doing the same stuff over & over. Even if it works well, shake up the routine now & then.


----------



## 41362

sinnister said:


> I think you may be right. She's not one to beat around the bush so I know a lot of it has to do with percieved resentment about me not doing enough....its crazy but it's her reality. I can't win that fight but I can win the weight battle I have with myself.


Yes. You.Can.

You have to do this, Sin. Your outlook on life and your marriage will change dramatically once you get some confidence in yourself.


----------



## sinnister

Of course you're all right. I was on a nice streak for a while down 40+ lbs but I've gained a good bit of that back. Im buckling down again though a pound at a time.

Yes, I have definitely considered divorce over this. I have researched divorce and seperation laws for my province multiple times. I have researche lawyers and procedures. Just havent pulled the trigger. Last time I packed my bags and was ready to leave the kids saw my luggage...worst day of my life. They were besides themself with fear.

I cant do that to them again. Yes my life will suck but its worth waiting until they are old enough not to completly melt down.


----------



## jaquen

sinnister said:


> I cant do that to them again. Yes my life will suck but its worth waiting until they are old enough not to completly melt down.


Keep in mind that even teens and adult children can be severely emotionally blown apart by divorce. My best friend's girlfriend is going through a huge emotional crisis right now over her parent's divorce, and she's pushing 30. What she's reacting to the most is getting to her late 20's with the impression that mom and dad's marriage is solid, only to discover they've had deep, marriage ending problems all while she was growing up. Their getting divorced now has caused the woman to question so much of what she thought about her own family, her identity, marriage, security, and love. It's a huge mess.

Meanwhile I know a few children of divorce who are glad their parents ended things when they were young, as some of the parents went on to have very successful later marriages with step parents they adore. Some of them were able, with pretty stunning intuitiveness, to remember the coldness and distance between their parents even as little kids.

I think divorce is devastating but it's not always as clear cut as "better to do it when they're older". Children can be far more resilient than you might realize, often times more than fully developed adults whose worldview is more set in stone, and thus major events can sometimes shake their entire perspective in very detrimental ways.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Finally read NMMNG*

Wow, thought I had the wrong thread. All screwed up today.

Here is something I found that is an interesting read. I thought you might share it with your wife.

http://stevenashyb.wordpress.com/2014/10/20/the-race-to-nowhere-in-youth-sports/

Regards.


----------



## MEM2020

For the commitment to your kids: Take a bow. That's a beautiful thing. 

That said, this is a two step process. 
- get in shape and stay there
- tighten your finances to the razors edge so you will be in decent financial shape when you end it

And of course, let your W know that the day your youngest turns 18 you will file. 

Push her hard to get a job. Not for your sake for hers. This all needs to be a very low key, matter of fact delivery. 

And it needs to not be punitive. Just acceptance that you two aren't compatible....





sinnister said:


> Of course you're all right. I was on a nice streak for a while down 40+ lbs but I've gained a good bit of that back. Im buckling down again though a pound at a time.
> 
> Yes, I have definitely considered divorce over this. I have researched divorce and seperation laws for my province multiple times. I have researche lawyers and procedures. Just havent pulled the trigger. Last time I packed my bags and was ready to leave the kids saw my luggage...worst day of my life. They were besides themself with fear.
> 
> I cant do that to them again. Yes my life will suck but its worth waiting until they are old enough not to completly melt down.


----------



## farsidejunky

Checking in on you, brother. How goes it?


----------



## chaos

Why not consider proposing divorce to your wife but with the two of you still living under the same roof until the kids are old enough? It could relieve you and your wife from meeting each other's needs and it just may improve the way the two of you relate to one another. Not to mention, it would also show your wife that you are not kidding as far as you not wanting a future with her. Plus, if she still has any love left for you, she may finally get of the pott and start working on her issues.


----------



## Mr The Other

sinnister said:


> Great advice here.
> 
> Sorry about the late response, it's been crazy in Ottawa with what's going on.
> 
> The manning up Alpha stuff is great. But what is lost on me here is that I already WAS this way naturally! Thats how I scored such a hot wife. But now the problem is she's always been naturally assertive as well. And doesn't really take that crap from me or anybody else in her life. So If I just say, we're taking them out of Gymnastics she silently simmers until she errupts on me a month or two later holding on to the resentment.
> 
> It's just not worth the fight anymore. She seems to be receptive when i plan activities for just the two of us...but if there is even the hint of physical intimacy afterwards she balks.
> 
> So I think the best course of action right now is to let her lead the marriage...right into the gutter. I already know it's headed there but don't have the strength to steer it in the right direction anymore.
> 
> I do need to get back on track with my weight loss though. Need to start lifting again.


The advice to me was to be more alpha. It was slightly laughable. However, we come here in our weak moments. Also, there is a certain faith that things can be cured, which is a good thing. 

You can improve yourself, but not both. The new improved you will be better off.


----------



## MEM2020

Mr Other,

The reason you laugh at the alpha advice is entirely because you don't understand it. 

In the context of a marriage you measure your alpha quotient SOLELY IN TERMS of the degree to which your spouse is meeting your needs. 

It really is that simple. 

In a marriage where both spouses fully meet each other's needs they each get an alpha score of a 100. 

It has ZERO to do with how many men look up to you, and how many women hit on you in bars. 

And everything to do with the degree to which your spouse takes your needs seriously and meets them. 






Mr The Other said:


> The advice to me was to be more alpha. It was slightly laughable. However, we come here in our weak moments. Also, there is a certain faith that things can be cured, which is a good thing.
> 
> You can improve yourself, but not both. The new improved you will be better off.


----------



## Mr The Other

MEM11363 said:


> Mr Other,
> 
> The reason you laugh at the alpha advice is entirely because you don't understand it.
> 
> In the context of a marriage you measure your alpha quotient SOLELY IN TERMS of the degree to which your spouse is meeting your needs.
> 
> It really is that simple.
> 
> In a marriage where both spouses fully meet each other's needs they each get an alpha score of a 100.
> 
> It has ZERO to do with how many men look up to you, and how many women hit on you in bars.
> 
> And everything to do with the degree to which your spouse takes your needs seriously and meets them.


The Alpha advice did seem to be make it clear what you expect, impose boundaries and take care of yourself. That is fairly useful, get her to meet you needs is not advice.

In my case, it seemed to recommend separation, which seems fair enough. I have got over myself a little in the last day or two. There really is no reason to expect my wife to meet my needs, if she would not, the best thing is to split and move on. Dwelling on the rights and wrongs is just vanity.


----------



## MEM2020

MTO,

Deep sigh. You are like a lot of smart men - this is simply a part of life that doesn't come naturally to you. 

I was making an observation which is simply this: The degree to which your spouse meets your needs is a measure of your alpha in the marriage. 

My observation wasn't 'how to' advice, just a way to gauge where you stand in the marriage. 

And FWIW you married a seriously dysfunctional person. And ALL the stuff that bothered you would upset a normal, sane husband....





Mr The Other said:


> The Alpha advice did seem to be make it clear what you expect, impose boundaries and take care of yourself. That is fairly useful, get her to meet you needs is not advice.
> 
> In my case, it seemed to recommend separation, which seems fair enough. I have got over myself a little in the last day or two. There really is no reason to expect my wife to meet my needs, if she would not, the best thing is to split and move on. Dwelling on the rights and wrongs is just vanity.


----------



## Mr The Other

MEM11363 said:


> MTO,
> 
> Deep sigh. ....


Your post is reasonable, but you tone is very condescending. Not a problem, there was good insight in your post. But that is not a polite way to start a post. 

indeed, being rather more effeminate might have made me more attractive to me wife. These things do vary as women and men vary. 

For my part, I am sorry to give the impression I laughed at the alpha advice. The book was actually fairly balanced in this respect and acknowledged that it takes a balance of alpha and beta traits.


----------



## MEM2020

MTO,
First of all it is never my intention to be condescending. Since my goal is to be persuasive, it is counterproductive to insult folks. 

I apologize for my tone as it clearly rubbed you the wrong way. 

I do think that therapists do a poor job of explaining the distinction between:
- Individual happiness (which each of us is responsible for)
AND
- Relationship satisfaction

My partner has no responsibility for the former and a huge amount of responsibility for the latter. 

A good partner makes you a priority. 

A bad partner resents you for expecting them to make a fraction of the effort for you that you make for them. 

The reason I seriously question your judgement in regard to a healthy relationship balance is because you were pushing to have children well after it had become obvious that your ex wife was selfish, lazy and arguably dishonest to boot. 



QUOTE=Mr The Other;11347137]Your post is reasonable, but you tone is very condescending. Not a problem, there was good insight in your post. But that is not a polite way to start a post. 

indeed, being rather more effeminate might have made me more attractive to me wife. These things do vary as women and men vary. 

For my part, I am sorry to give the impression I laughed at the alpha advice. The book was actually fairly balanced in this respect and acknowledged that it takes a balance of alpha and beta traits.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Mr The Other

MEM11363 said:


> MTO,
> First of all it is never my intention to be condescending. Since my goal is to be persuasive, it is counterproductive to insult folks.
> 
> I apologize for my tone as it clearly rubbed you the wrong way.
> 
> I do think that therapists do a poor job of explaining the distinction between:
> - Individual happiness (which each of us is responsible for)
> AND
> - Relationship satisfaction
> 
> My partner has no responsibility for the former and a huge amount of responsibility for the latter.
> 
> A good partner makes you a priority.
> 
> A bad partner resents you for expecting them to make a fraction of the effort for you that you make for them.
> 
> The reason I seriously question your judgement in regard to a healthy relationship balance is because you were pushing to have children well after it had become obvious that your ex wife was selfish, lazy and arguably dishonest to boot.


I hope I am not putting myself forward as a wise man? If I have something to offer, it is probably a good long list of mistakes and silly ideas like most of us. I do not think many of us join TAM because things are going smootly and we are supremely confident. Anyone who joined just to explain to the rest of us probably has even more learning to do that the rest of us.

I do not actually think my wife is really a deeply selfish, lazy and arguably dishonest lady. Most of my friends that only knew us before the wedding assume the marriage fell apart as I had an affair or something similar. I think the change in social status went completely to her head though without her even realizing. Either way, it is in the past now. I can actually see her going on and having a decent happy marriage - she would have to tackle her crazy, but that is essential for most of us.

I would agree with the difference between the individual and the relationship. My experience was that the was a defined line between them, but of course that was from a small sample. 

Going back over, I may have written poorly a few posts back. The advice I had from many posts on TAM was to be more Alpha, not so much from MMSL. If that means in manner and mindset, well it was reasonable advice but often offered as a panacea. MMSL does not present it as a panacea, as I mentioned, I am happy I did as MMSL would advise (split). If it is just a measure, then it is a bit like going to the doctor and him giving the advice "Be healthier", not unreasonable, but not useful either.

Thank you for the chat, even if the tone did leave me wondering if I had pissed on your chips at some point.


----------



## MEM2020

MTO,
Being transparent - yes - I did respond in an antagonistic manner to one phrase you employed - something about:
'much of the advice to be more alpha was laughable'.

A couple quick points, and these are purely intended as a recap of the core themes:

First, I believe shared definitions are critical to clear communication. 

I define alpha purely as a function of strength. Therefore in the context of a marriage I measure it via the degree to which each spouse is able to have their needs met. 

I'm fine with the medical analogy. Please humor me though, because I'd like to compare it to a specific metric such as blood pressure. 

I visit the doctor and he tells me that:
1. my BP is 150/110
2. I need to lower it to 125/80

He then provides specific steps for doing so. 
1. Quit smoking 

This is analogous in a way - to the advice I give folks who are quickly find themselves being taken for granted right after they get married. They have sadly married someone who simply stops trying to be pleasing once they get married. For these folks, total relationship stability brings out their worst. 

So the advice I give (men and women) who've been deprioritized is simple. Don't agree to add children to a broken marriage. Because it sends a very strong message to your spouse that you are OK with the way they are treating you. 

2. Cut back on alcohol

You've already told your partner repeatedly that you feel neglected and it is hurtful. Now show it by cutting back on all the other (more subtle) messages of approval you are giving a partner who has deprioritized you. Stop reassuring them with so many daily shows of loving words and acts. Because they interpret those as meaning that you are ok with their neglect. Redirect more of that positive energy at friends and family. And if they ask why, be honest. How hard is it to say: I lack the desire to do 'those things' for you, and I know you don't want me to do anything I don't want to do. 

Anyway - to me - that's being more alpha. 







Mr The Other said:


> I hope I am not putting myself forward as a wise man? If I have something to offer, it is probably a good long list of mistakes and silly ideas like most of us. I do not think many of us join TAM because things are going smootly and we are supremely confident. Anyone who joined just to explain to the rest of us probably has even more learning to do that the rest of us.
> 
> I do not actually think my wife is really a deeply selfish, lazy and arguably dishonest lady. Most of my friends that only knew us before the wedding assume the marriage fell apart as I had an affair or something similar. I think the change in social status went completely to her head though without her even realizing. Either way, it is in the past now. I can actually see her going on and having a decent happy marriage - she would have to tackle her crazy, but that is essential for most of us.
> 
> I would agree with the difference between the individual and the relationship. My experience was that the was a defined line between them, but of course that was from a small sample.
> 
> Going back over, I may have written poorly a few posts back. The advice I had from many posts on TAM was to be more Alpha, not so much from MMSL. If that means in manner and mindset, well it was reasonable advice but often offered as a panacea. MMSL does not present it as a panacea, as I mentioned, I am happy I did as MMSL would advise (split). If it is just a measure, then it is a bit like going to the doctor and him giving the advice "Be healthier", not unreasonable, but not useful either.
> 
> Thank you for the chat, even if the tone did leave me wondering if I had pissed on your chips at some point.


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## Mr The Other

MEM11363 said:


> MTO,
> Being transparent - yes - I did respond in an antagonistic manner to one phrase you employed - something about:
> 'much of the advice to be more alpha was laughable'.
> 
> A couple quick points, and these are purely intended as a recap of the core themes:
> 
> First, I believe shared definitions are critical to clear communication.
> 
> I define alpha purely as a function of strength. Therefore in the context of a marriage I measure it via the degree to which each spouse is able to have their needs met.
> 
> I'm fine with the medical analogy. Please humor me though, because I'd like to compare it to a specific metric such as blood pressure.
> 
> I visit the doctor and he tells me that:
> 1. my BP is 150/110
> 2. I need to lower it to 125/80
> 
> He then provides specific steps for doing so.
> 1. Quit smoking
> 
> This is analogous in a way - to the advice I give folks who are quickly find themselves being taken for granted right after they get married. They have sadly married someone who simply stops trying to be pleasing once they get married. For these folks, total relationship stability brings out their worst.
> 
> So the advice I give (men and women) who've been deprioritized is simple. Don't agree to add children to a broken marriage. Because it sends a very strong message to your spouse that you are OK with the way they are treating you.
> 
> 2. Cut back on alcohol
> 
> You've already told your partner repeatedly that you feel neglected and it is hurtful. Now show it by cutting back on all the other (more subtle) messages of approval you are giving a partner who has deprioritized you. Stop reassuring them with so many daily shows of loving words and acts. Because they interpret those as meaning that you are ok with their neglect. Redirect more of that positive energy at friends and family. And if they ask why, be honest. How hard is it to say: I lack the desire to do 'those things' for you, and I know you don't want me to do anything I don't want to do.
> 
> Anyway - to me - that's being more alpha.


I think you make the point very well. When I first joined TAM, I was at a very low place. While some of the advice was not useful, a great deal was. I had started to emotionally disengage and move my attention elsewhere, bascially realising I did not need the marriage. Where TAM was useful was in realising that was a good thing rather than a failure (it is a big leap and takes a while). It did also have some effect on her, but ultimately not enough as I do not think she was willing to open her eyes to it. As my MC once said to her, "Have you tried listening to what he is actually saying", in regard to why I was not indulging her.

A great deal of the advice is common sense, but I like your analogy, so I will run with it. I would compare it to someone who has become very obese. They then realise they have to eat healthy and exercise, unforutnately it is harder than ever as their blood sugar is all over the place giving them sugar cravings and exercise is a miserable experience. What may have been easy advice to follow once becomes very difficuly. The contrast is that obesity takes years, in the case we are talking about you have a nice weekend and wake up with a 100lb beer gut.

More through luck than wisdom, I have ended up in a remarkably good place. In my defense, I realise I have been lucky, which is at least a slither of wisdom. 

Thanks.

ETA: To continue the medical analogy. The advice I found laughable was as if being informed that I was a non-smoker, the doctor persisted that I should give up smoking and then everything would be fine because that is what worked for him. Neither yourself nor MMSL are guilty of that.


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## MEM2020

MTO,

You came here to get practical advice. Got some, applied it gently and patiently. Rinse repeat. Eventually realized that you two weren't compatible. 

At that point you were very smart. You avoided changing venue to a place where you would have gotten screwed in a divorce. 

You came out of it largely unscathed - which is rare in a divorce. 




Mr The Other said:


> I think you make the point very well. When I first joined TAM, I was at a very low place. While some of the advice was not useful, a great deal was. I had started to emotionally disengage and move my attention elsewhere, bascially realising I did not need the marriage. Where TAM was useful was in realising that was a good thing rather than a failure (it is a big leap and takes a while). It did also have some effect on her, but ultimately not enough as I do not think she was willing to open her eyes to it. As my MC once said to her, "Have you tried listening to what he is actually saying", in regard to why I was not indulging her.
> 
> A great deal of the advice is common sense, but I like your analogy, so I will run with it. I would compare it to someone who has become very obese. They then realise they have to eat healthy and exercise, unforutnately it is harder than ever as their blood sugar is all over the place giving them sugar cravings and exercise is a miserable experience. What may have been easy advice to follow once becomes very difficuly. The contrast is that obesity takes years, in the case we are talking about you have a nice weekend and wake up with a 100lb beer gut.
> 
> More through luck than wisdom, I have ended up in a remarkably good place. In my defense, I realise I have been lucky, which is at least a slither of wisdom.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> ETA: To continue the medical analogy. The advice I found laughable was as if being informed that I was a non-smoker, the doctor persisted that I should give up smoking and then everything would be fine because that is what worked for him. Neither yourself nor MMSL are guilty of that.


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