# I'm not judging the people on coping with infidelity



## CincyBluesFan

I'm really not. I've read through some posts over there and there are some seriously damaged and hurting people. The only perspective I can give is from a person who is still married to the woman of my dreams after 29 years and counting. She's my best friend in the world.

Has it been Utopia for 29 years? Of course not. Fairy tales are not real and people get mad at each other. Is your sex life always going to be honeymoon/newly wed sex? Of course not. If you think it will you'll probably never last the long haul.

My observations is that a vast majority of people there don't accept that infidelity was just a symptom of the real problems with the marriage and that real problems always involve both spouses.

There is also the case that one spouse is just a really terrible person and is incapable of staying faithful to one person. Yes, those people do exist.

Still, some of the advice I see for "protecting" the marriage is really bad in my opinion. Spy on your spouse's cell phone? Spy on their online activity? Tell them who their friends can and can't be? No opposite sex friends ever?

Where do these people come up with this crappolla? It's definitely not from any marriage counselor I've ever heard of. I can't imagine having to live like that. I wouldn't tolerate it if I had to do it and I wouldn't tolerate it if it was being done to me.


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## missymrs80

I agree, but at the same time the WS bailed when things got tough.


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## EleGirl

People have different opinions about infidelity.

A huge percentage of men will not stay with a women if she cheats. It does matter what problem were in the marriage. I does not matter if he was horrible neglectful, abusive, whatever.. most men will not work on recovery.

Most women will try working on recovery if their husband cheated.

CWI is mostly men as it seems that some men gravitate to the kind of advice given there... the advice to dump the WW and do as much damage as possible while doing it.

The spying on a spouse thing... a person has the right to find out what is going on in their life. Most people who cheat lie when confronted. So the only way to find out what is really going on is to look for the information yourself. I do not agree with ongoing spying. I do think that investigating to get enough of the truth to be able to make up my own mind about whether or not I want to stay in a marriage is needed very often.


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## CincyBluesFan

missymrs80 said:


> I agree, but at the same time the WS bailed when things got tough.


If someone is going to bail that's probably for the best in the long run. I'm sure the pain is unimaginable but best to pull that bandaid quickly than to pull it slowly and painfully for years.

When people ask us how you make it so long and still be so in love one of the reasons I tell them (and there are actually so many reasons it would be challenging to list them all) is that we both loved the person for exactly who they are. I wouldn't change anything about my wife and she would change nothing about me.

If someone is in a relationship where they need to "work on themselves" to be who their partner needs them to be then their relationship is probably doomed to failure. People can "change" temporarily but we're all who we are. At some point the person they really are is going to be in too much conflict with the person they're trying to be and they'll be miserable.

I'd think all these fancy computer dating sites would help people find other people who love them as they are. The real them and not some part they're willing to play, for a while, to strive for the illusion of a healthy relationship.

Does my wife do a ton of things that bug the sh*t out of me? Of course she does. Would I change anything at all about her? No, never. Not one thing.


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## CincyBluesFan

EleGirl said:


> People have different opinions about infidelity.
> 
> A huge percentage of men will not stay with a women if she cheats. It does matter what problem were in the marriage. I does not matter if he was horrible neglectful, abusive, whatever.. most men will not work on recovery.
> 
> Most women will try working on recovery if their husband cheated.
> 
> CWI is mostly men as it seems that some men gravitate to the kind of advice given there... the advice to dump the WW and do as much damage as possible while doing it.
> 
> The spying on a spouse thing... a person has the right to find out what is going on in their life. Most people who cheat lie when confronted. So the only way to find out what is really going on is to look for the information yourself. I do not agree with ongoing spying. I do think that investigating to get enough of the truth to be able to make up my own mind about whether or not I want to stay in a marriage is needed very often.


I agree as part of an active investigation of a cheater but I was talking long-term/standard stuff. Some of them have said spouses should never have opposite sex friends. That's just silly.


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## Jung_admirer

I believe ultimately every marriage will face one or more serious crises. Your character is fully demonstrated in how you cope with the most heinous forms of adversity. With great risk there is the potential for great reward. The truth of the matter is: You know nothing of one's character until it is tested. Infidelity is not a symptom of anything ... It is a character response to adversity, and an often unexpected one at that.


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## missymrs80

CincyBluesFan said:


> If someone is going to bail that's probably for the best in the long run. I'm sure the pain is unimaginable but best to pull that bandaid quickly than to pull it slowly and painfully for years.
> 
> By bail, i mean the person cheated when things werent going well in the marriage rather than asking their spouse to go to MC to work on the marriage.


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## GusPolinski

CincyBluesFan said:


> I'm really not. I've read through some posts over there and there are some seriously damaged and hurting people. The only perspective I can give is from a person who is still married to the woman of my dreams after 29 years and counting. She's my best friend in the world.


That's great!

She ever cheat on you?



CincyBluesFan said:


> Has it been Utopia for 29 years? Of course not. Fairy tales are not real and people get mad at each other. Is your sex life always going to be honeymoon/newly wed sex? Of course not. If you think it will you'll probably never last the long haul.


Come on... most people know this stuff.



CincyBluesFan said:


> My observations is that a vast majority of people there don't accept that infidelity was just a symptom of the real problems with the marriage and that real problems always involve both spouses.


Vast majority? I wouldn't say that. But swap that for "lot" and insert an "almost" in front of "always" in your last sentence, and ^this^ is fair commentary.



CincyBluesFan said:


> There is also the case that one spouse is just a really terrible person and is incapable of staying faithful to one person. Yes, those people do exist.


Yep!



CincyBluesFan said:


> Still, some of the advice I see for "protecting" the marriage is really bad in my opinion. Spy on your spouse's cell phone? Spy on their online activity? Tell them who their friends can and can't be? No opposite sex friends ever?


/yawn

Bottom line... any spouse whose trust in his or her spouse has been broken by infidelity, having then committed to the reconciliation of his or her marriage, *AND* having received the same commitment from his or her wayward spouse, _has every right to verify that his or her trust has not been misplaced... *again*._



CincyBluesFan said:


> Where do these people come up with this crappolla? It's definitely not from any marriage counselor I've ever heard of. I can't imagine having to live like that. I wouldn't tolerate it if I had to do it and I wouldn't tolerate it if it was being done to me.


Hmm... sounds awfully "judgey" to me. Aaaaanway...

The part in blue indicates that you're too naive for reconciliation as a BS.

The part in red indicates that you're too proud and/or stubborn for reconciliation as a WS.


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## arbitrator

CincyBluesFan said:


> My observations is that a vast majority of people there don't accept that infidelity was just a symptom of the real problems with the marriage and that real problems always involve both spouses.
> 
> There is also the case that one spouse is just a really terrible person and is incapable of staying faithful to one person. Yes, those people do exist.
> 
> Still, some of the advice I see for "protecting" the marriage is really bad in my opinion. Spy on your spouse's cell phone? Spy on their online activity? Tell them who their friends can and can't be? No opposite sex friends ever?


*In the beginning of any new loving and trusting relationship, total trust should be extended to the partner, and with very few exceptions!!

But when either "probable cause" occurs or one's intuitive "gut instincts" kick in, then I think that they have the inherent right to covertly investigate any facet of what their partner is doing in order to either prove or disprove to themselves any aura of probable deception within the bounds of their committed and avowed relationship!

That is a preeminent "no-brainer!"*


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## CincyBluesFan

Jung_admirer said:


> I believe ultimately every marriage will face one or more serious crises. Your character is fully demonstrated in how you cope with the most heinous forms of adversity. With great risk there is the potential for great reward. The truth of the matter is: You know nothing of one's character until it is tested. Infidelity is not a symptom of anything ... It is a character response to adversity, and an often unexpected one at that.


Good post and I agree. Whenever one of my kids has failed at something I give them my standard failure/character advice. It goes:

In my life I've learned far more from my failures than from my successes because in your failures is where you find your character.


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## CincyBluesFan

arbitrator said:


> *In the beginning of any new loving and trusting relationship, total trust should be extended to the partner!
> 
> But when either "probable cause" or one's intuitive "gut instincts" kick in, then I think that they have the inherent right to covertly investigate any facet of what their partner is doing in order to either prove or disprove to themselves an aura of probable deception within the bounds of their committed and avowed relationship!
> 
> That is a preeminent "no-brainer!"*


Think about it though. Does a relationship have any chance at real long term success if it involves spying, sneaking around, checking up, etc.? I guess there are people who are okay with living like that and that's cool, it's their life. I could never do it. If I had to spy, that would be it for me.


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## GusPolinski

CincyBluesFan said:


> *Think about it though. Does a relationship have any chance at real long term success if it involves spying, sneaking around, checking up, etc.? * I guess there are people who are okay with living like that and that's cool, it's their life. I could never do it. If I had to spy, that would be it for me.


Nope, and that's why doing it LONG TERM is a horrible idea.


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## Pluto2

Just curious, why did you start a thread about judging CWI in the first place?
Have you ever suffered through infidelity in your marriage? If so, then share how you and the spouse made it through. If not .... well, then, its pretty judgei


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## jb02157

I'm surprised to hear this. From what I have seen from the many posts I've read is that there is a lot of pain and rationalizing happening which really it's unfair to ask a cheated on spouse to put up with. They'll have to go on with the marriage always wondering if it will happen again. 

On the other hand, it not as easy for men to give up and get a divorce, financially speaking ( think I've laid out that case quite well and won't bring it up again here). So, in some cases you're stuck to having to put with reconciliation (as good as you can get it) even if you don't want to and would rather end the marriage. 

It kind of doesn't matter if you want to work on what brought on the cheating incident, that really doesn't matter any more, you are just trying to bail out a sinking ship... the marriage won't function as a marriage anymore but rather an obligation to keep yourself going financially or to be able to see your kids.


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## CincyBluesFan

Pluto2 said:


> Just curious, why did you start a thread about judging CWI in the first place?
> Have you ever suffered through infidelity in your marriage? If so, then share how you and the spouse made it through. If not .... well, then, its pretty judgei


There's no judgment and I didn't start this thread in the coping with infidelity forum. This is the long term success forum. I've been married for 29 years and counting to the greatest wife a man could ever hope for.

That person exists for everyone. They just have to find them. If they think they've found that person but it involves spying, sneaking, checking up, rules like no opposite sex friends, etc. then as much as they might not want to admit it, they have not found that person.


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## arbitrator

CincyBluesFan said:


> Think about it though. Does a relationship have any chance at real long term success if it involves spying, sneaking around, checking up, etc.? I guess there are people who are okay with living like that and that's cool, it's their life. I could never do it. If I had to spy, that would be it for me.


*Trust me on this one, Cincy! If a reasonable man or woman goes to the park and while there, see's their very own marital partner engaged in sex with another party, that is well beyond any "probable cause."

By the same token, if a marital person's relationship has either deteriorated or changed to any discernible degree with their spouse, either sexually or relationship-wise; in that they are spending more and more time away from home without prior explanation or under sketchy circumstances, then that is "probable cause!" As is a spouse innocently seeing a text on their partner's PC screen or cell phone from someone imploring them to "meet me at the No-Tell Motel," "Luv Ya, Baby," or "Can't wait until you do that thing to me again!" No matter how you see it, there's a covert, implied aura of deception present!

In any of these situations, that merits "probable cause," which IMHO, grossly entitles the offended spouse to any facet of investigation that they may see fit to participate in, either personally or even professionally!

Any reasonable husband or wife of rationality would do it!*


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## Blossom Leigh

There aren't any posters that come to mind that advocate long term spying here as a means to keep spouses around and happy.


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## EleGirl

CincyBluesFan said:


> I agree as part of an active investigation of a cheater but I was talking long-term/standard stuff. Some of them have said spouses should never have opposite sex friends. That's just silly.


When I found out my husband was cheating.. He has online relationships with many women. 10 of them were intense. He met about 5 of them when he traveled to other cities for dates/sex. The only way I found this was to break into all of his email and chat programs. 

I then contacted every one of the women who thought he was madly in love with them. He did not tell them that he was married. So I took all the emails and chats hat to all of them and email them in a zip file to all of them. This way the could all see that he was telling them all the same things, even writing and sending them all the exact same love poems. Up until I did that several of the women felt that they were the love of his life and still tried to continue the relationship. That zip file ended every relationship. 

With the I could then decide what to do. This was not about problems in our relationship. He was doing this through our dating, engagement and the first 2 years of our marriage. He was basically broken from his ex-wife walking out on him and the children to live with her alcoholic affair partner.

So the only way I would stay in the marriage and give him a chance is if he agreed to me putting a key logger on his computers (he's a web-developer, so yes it was computers). The agreement was that if he did anything to shut down or sabotage the key logger.. the marriage was over.

The idea is that when an affair (or affairs) happen a couple needs to figure out not only what is wrong in the relationship but what weaknesses that lead the cheating spouse to cheat. 

When a marriage has problems, a spouse can choose any number of ways to act: work to fix the marriage, work to fix themself, divorce, or cheat. If a person chooses to cheat they have a weakness to that particular behavior. And in order to repair the marriage the couple needs to put in place things that protect the marriage and the cheater from cheating again. We agreed as a couple that the key logger would help to protect him from himself and our relationship.

I did not sneak behind his back. If he did not agree to it he could leave. I tracked him with the key logger for a long time. For about 3 years did what he promised... no contact with any woman on line that was not purely business, family or a female I knew about and agreed to.

Then he started up again. I knew when it started because the key logger was on. He tried playing cat/mouse about it. Suffice it to say that we are now divorced.

Some men (will look at men here as an example) are KISA (knights in shinning armor) meaning that they seek out women damsels in distress to save. And then the woman falls in love and showers him with attention. As it turns out.. this is my ex's issue. He would spend enormous amounts of time helping and emotionally propping up women on the internet. But he would not lift one finger to do anything in our home, spend time with me or his own children. But those women think he's a knight saving them from the pains in their lives.

A guy who is like this has a weakness that he has to protect from if he wants to stay married. So it's perfectly reasonable for a wife to ask a guy like this to not have close female friends who he will get entangled with pulling his KISA shtick. 

Keep in mind that I'm talking about a couple agreeing on these things. This should never be one spouse being the Gestapo enforcer. Either they both agree and live by it, or they divorce.


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## Pluto2

CincyBluesFan said:


> There's no judgment and I didn't start this thread in the coping with infidelity forum. This is the long term success forum. I've been married for 29 years and counting to the greatest wife a man could ever hope for.
> 
> That person exists for everyone. They just have to find them. If they think they've found that person but it involves spying, sneaking, checking up, rules like no opposite sex friends, etc. then as much as they might not want to admit it, they have not found that person.


We're all one big family here on TAM, so the fact that this is in the long term success forum is pretty irrelevant.

And you never did seem to answer my question. Have you and your spouse suffered through infidelity, and if so how?


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## CincyBluesFan

EleGirl said:


> When I found out my husband was cheating.. He has online relationships with many women. 10 of them were intense. He met about 5 of them when he traveled to other cities for dates/sex. The only way I found this was to break into all of his email and chat programs.
> 
> I then contacted every one of the women who thought he was madly in love with them. He did not tell them that he was married. So I took all the emails and chats hat to all of them and email them in a zip file to all of them. This way the could all see that he was telling them all the same things, even writing and sending them all the exact same love poems. Up until I did that several of the women felt that they were the love of his life and still tried to continue the relationship. That zip file ended every relationship.
> 
> With the I could then decide what to do. This was not about problems in our relationship. He was doing this through our dating, engagement and the first 2 years of our marriage. He was basically broken from his ex-wife walking out on him and the children to live with her alcoholic affair partner.
> 
> So the only way I would stay in the marriage and give him a chance is if he agreed to me putting a key logger on his computers (he's a web-developer, so yes it was computers). The agreement was that if he did anything to shut down or sabotage the key logger.. the marriage was over.
> 
> The idea is that when an affair (or affairs) happen a couple needs to figure out not only what is wrong in the relationship but what weaknesses that lead the cheating spouse to cheat.
> 
> When a marriage has problems, a spouse can choose any number of ways to act: work to fix the marriage, work to fix themself, divorce, or cheat. If a person chooses to cheat they have a weakness to that particular behavior. And in order to repair the marriage the couple needs to put in place things that protect the marriage and the cheater from cheating again. We agreed as a couple that the key logger would help to protect him from himself and our relationship.
> 
> I did not sneak behind his back. If he did not agree to it he could leave. I tracked him with the key logger for a long time. For about 3 years did what he promised... no contact with any woman on line that was not purely business, family or a female I knew about and agreed to.
> 
> Then he started up again. I knew when it started because the key logger was on. He tried playing cat/mouse about it. Suffice it to say that we are now divorced.
> 
> Some men (will look at men here as an example) are KISA (knights in shinning armor) meaning that they seek out women damsels in distress to save. And then the woman falls in love and showers him with attention. As it turns out.. this is my ex's issue. He would spend enormous amounts of time helping and emotionally propping up women on the internet. But he would not lift one finger to do anything in our home, spend time with me or his own children. But those women think he's a knight saving them from the pains in their lives.
> 
> A guy who is like this has a weakness that he has to protect from if he wants to stay married. So it's perfectly reasonable for a wife to ask a guy like this to not have close female friends who he will get entangled with pulling his KISA shtick.
> 
> Keep in mind that I'm talking about a couple agreeing on these things. This should never be one spouse being the Gestapo enforcer. Either they both agree and live by it, or they divorce.


You're a saint for giving him a chance after he cheated with 10 women. Wow. Literally how can you ever trust a person like that?


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## CincyBluesFan

Pluto2 said:


> And you never did seem to answer my question. Have you and your spouse suffered through infidelity, and if so how?


Actually I answered that in my first post. I said "the only perspective I can offer" is someone who has been happily married to the love of my life for 29 years. That is why I post on the long term success forum. I don't post on the coping with infidelity forum. The advice I can give is how to last the long haul. The advice I'm giving is that spying, sneaking, and oppressive rules are not the way to last the long haul. No opposite sex friends? What is this the Victorian age?


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## SimplyAmorous

CincyBluesFan said:


> That person exists for everyone. They just have to find them. If they think they've found that person but it involves *spying, sneaking, checking up*, rules like no opposite sex friends, etc. then as much as they might not want to admit it, they have not found that person.


If I had any question about my spouse ... (and I haven't experienced this in our marriage)..but I WOULD *do* the spying.. just to collect evidence so I could NAIL his a** in any type of custody or whatever.. too many people are LIARS and they hide.. that's not acceptable....I think this is one of the best threads on this forum...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/articles/993-sex-lies-secrets-secrecy-destroying-your-marriage.html

So yeah...if one has been too damn secretive, and has been caught in any sort of lie...the other has every right under the sun , to fight fire with fire. 

And they should he divorced, of course. I hardly go into that section.. as I don't have experience with it. I think it takes 2....but as you said.. some are just selfish ____ and they happened to marry someone very trusting that didn't deserve it.. (Opposites often attract even ).... my heart really goes out to the innocent ones though..

But I also feel this about those who are in sexless marriages and fall into cheating out of emotional neglect, desperation & hopelessness. I don't see those betrayeds as innocent as doves by any means....I feel they greatly contributed to the fallout....always more to the story..


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## Lila

CincyBluesFan said:


> I'm really not. I've read through some posts over there and there are some seriously damaged and hurting people. The only perspective I can give is from a person who is still married to the woman of my dreams after 29 years and counting. She's my best friend in the world.
> 
> Has it been Utopia for 29 years? Of course not. Fairy tales are not real and people get mad at each other. Is your sex life always going to be honeymoon/newly wed sex? Of course not. If you think it will you'll probably never last the long haul.
> 
> My observations is that a vast majority of people there don't accept that infidelity was just a symptom of the real problems with the marriage and that real problems always involve both spouses.
> 
> There is also the case that one spouse is just a really terrible person and is incapable of staying faithful to one person. Yes, those people do exist.
> 
> Still, some of the advice I see for "protecting" the marriage is really bad in my opinion. Spy on your spouse's cell phone? Spy on their online activity? Tell them who their friends can and can't be? No opposite sex friends ever?
> 
> Where do these people come up with this crappolla? It's definitely not from any marriage counselor I've ever heard of. I can't imagine having to live like that. I wouldn't tolerate it if I had to do it and I wouldn't tolerate it if it was being done to me.


I agree with you that spying on your partner and attempting to control who they interact with on a social basis is not good advice to give a couple in a healthy and trusting relationship. 

However, most of the people posting their stories on CWI _are not _in a healthy relationship. As the forum title suggests, they are trying to 'cope with infidelity'. The only way to repair broken trust in a marriage is to prove one is trustworthy. How does one prove to be trustworthy? With evidence...e.g. access to online social media and cell phones, etc...


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## CincyBluesFan

Lila said:


> I agree with you that spying on your partner and attempting to control who they interact with on a social basis is not good advice to give a couple in a healthy and trusting relationship.
> 
> However, most of the people posting their stories on CWI _are not _in a healthy relationship. As the forum title suggests, they are trying to 'cope with infidelity'. The only way to repair broken trust in a marriage is to prove one is trustworthy. How does one prove to be trustworthy? With evidence...e.g. access to online social media and cell phones, etc...


In a lot of stories it goes past that. The betrayed spouse says they basically get to dictate who the other spouse can be friends with for the duration of their marriage. Do you really see that lasting the long haul under those conditions? I wonder why anyone would want to live like that on either side of the equation.


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## EleGirl

CincyBluesFan said:


> You're a saint for giving him a chance after he cheated with 10 women. Wow. Literally how can you ever trust a person like that?


How do you ever trust a person like that?

I am not a victim. His actions say zero about me. So my ego does not enter into it. 

To me, when someone does what he did.. they are so broken at the time that it's a mental illness issue. Mental illness can be overcome or managed if the person is motivated. I know people who have pulled through mental illness issues.

I am a strong believer in forgiveness and redemption. Almost everyone deserves a second chance. 

Few people deserve a third chance. So we are divorced.

A bit more info. My ex's fall into mental illness continued to the point that he became completely non-productive, could not hold a job, or function in normal society. There were other life circumstances that contributed heavily to him falling completely apart. This is a man who was high functioning, had a very responsible job earning 6 figures for about 2 decades.. but then he unraveled. He has since been diagnosed with serious mental illness. So now 15 years later, he's still unable to function as he did before he unraveled.


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## EleGirl

CincyBluesFan said:


> In a lot of stories it goes past that. The betrayed spouse says they basically get to dictate who the other spouse can be friends with for the duration of their marriage. Do you really see that lasting the long haul under those conditions? I wonder why anyone would want to live like that on either side of the equation.


Often when there is infidelity, the BS basically cracks. They are not in a good place at all. It takes 2-5 years for a BS to recover from infidelity. The pain is equivalent to when a spouse dies from something horrible like murder. But now they love and are trying to deal with the person who murdered their spouse.

Most of the folks in CWI are in the initial few months. They are not thinking straight half the time and all over the place.


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## Pluto2

CincyBluesFan said:


> Actually I answered that in my first post. I said "the only perspective I can offer" is someone who has been happily married to the love of my life for 29 years. That is why I post on the long term success forum. I don't post on the coping with infidelity forum. The advice I can give is how to last the long haul. The advice I'm giving is that spying, sneaking, and oppressive rules are not the way to last the long haul. No opposite sex friends? What is this the Victorian age?


Look I honestly, sincerely hope that you never have to venture into the CWI forum, or the Mental illness forum or an abuse forum. Lots of people there never thought they've have to either, but there you go. Sometimes there are warning signs, and sometimes there aren't. But people who have to deal with those types of stresses aren't currently blissfully happy in their marriage and they find the strength to do what needs to be done to survive. 

So if you ever have to face infidelity in your marriage and you either are getting gaslighted, or you want to R, then perhaps you would consider the possibilities you never contemplated before, simply because there was no need for it. And now you'll know where to go to get the advice you need.


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## CincyBluesFan

EleGirl said:


> How do you ever trust a person like that?
> 
> I am not a victim. His actions say zero about me. So my ego does not enter into it.
> 
> To me, when someone does what he did.. they are so broken at the time that it's a mental illness issue. Mental illness can be overcome or managed if the person is motivated. I know people who have pulled through mental illness issues.
> 
> I am a strong believer in forgiveness and redemption. Almost everyone deserves a second chance.
> 
> Few people deserve a third chance. So we are divorced.
> 
> A bit more info. My ex's fall into mental illness continued to the point that he became completely non-productive, could not hold a job, or function in normal society. There were other life circumstances that contributed heavily to him falling completely apart. This is a man who was high functioning, had a very responsible job earning 6 figures for about 2 decades.. but then he unraveled. He has since been diagnosed with serious mental illness. So now 15 years later, he's still unable to function as he did before he unraveled.


That is a sad tale but you do seem like a strong person. All I could offer is the old, but true, saying: That which does not kill us only makes us stronger. If you learned from this entire situation and grew from it then it actually had some value.


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## Lila

CincyBluesFan said:


> In a lot of stories it goes past that. The betrayed spouse says they basically get to dictate who the other spouse can be friends with for the duration of their marriage. Do you really see that lasting the long haul under those conditions? *I wonder why anyone would want to live like that on either side of the equation*.


You'll have to ask the B.S. and W.S. that choose to stay in their marriage under those circumstances. Whether I agree with the advise or not is moot. If it works for those couples then who am I to judge. They have their reasons for wanting to work it out.


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## CincyBluesFan

Pluto2 said:


> Look I honestly, sincerely hope that you never have to venture into the CWI forum, or the Mental illness forum or an abuse forum. Lots of people there never thought they've have to either, but there you go. Sometimes there are warning signs, and sometimes there aren't. But people who have to deal with those types of stresses aren't currently blissfully happy in their marriage and they find the strength to do what needs to be done to survive.
> 
> So if you ever have to face infidelity in your marriage and you either are getting gaslighted, or you want to R, then perhaps you would consider the possibilities you never contemplated before, simply because there was no need for it. And now you'll know where to go to get the advice you need.


I give a lot of them credit. I wouldn't tolerate cheating for two reasons. First, and most important, is the betrayal. Second, is that I'd know that I was not enough for my spouse. If I was there would have been no cheating. I might be angry at the very beginning but I'd say we're done and move on. I'd even forgive them and wish them a good life because carrying that with you going forward could ruin any future chances at happiness in a relationship.


----------



## Joe Cool

I don't like this thread. Sorry about that. Here is why.

I think it is judgmental, naïve and holier than thou despite your claims otherwise

1. you have not walked in the shoes of any of those people
2. your premise is deeply flawed because no one here advocates long term spying for long term satisfaction. To suggest so is absurd. 

You also seem to find gathering facts of the utmost importance to make perhaps the most important decision of ones life to end a marriage foolish. 

Making a decision to end a marriage on suspicion alone or trickle truth admissions of a lying cheating spouse rather than gathering facts like a level-headed intelligent adult that practices good decision making and a reasonable level of self preservation is reckless at best and frankly unfair to everyone in the path of destruction that divorce causes.

If it so happens that your lovely wife hits her head going down the basement stairs and ends up sneaking around boffing her opposite gender friend you so fully support her having I doubt your opinion would not change unless you are a complete fool.

Based on your other defending responses to this ill informed thread I don't expect an "I see your point"


----------



## CincyBluesFan

Joe Cool said:


> I don't like this thread. Sorry about that. Here is why.
> 
> I think it is judgmental, naïve and holier than thou despite your claims otherwise
> 
> 1. you have not walked in the shoes of any of those people
> 2. your premise is deeply flawed because no one here advocates long term spying for long term satisfaction. To suggest so is absurd.
> 
> You also seem to find gathering facts of the utmost importance to make perhaps the most important decision of ones life to end a marriage foolish.
> 
> Making a decision to end a marriage on suspicion alone or trickle truth admissions of a lying cheating spouse rather than gathering facts like a level-headed intelligent adult that practices good decision making and a reasonable level of self preservation is reckless at best and frankly unfair to everyone in the path of destruction that divorce causes.
> 
> If it so happens that your lovely wife hits her head going down the basement stairs and ends up sneaking around boffing her opposite gender friend you so fully support her having I doubt your opinion would not change unless you are a complete fool.
> 
> Based on your other defending responses to this ill informed thread I don't expect an "I see your point"


I guess on the flip side you could say the people coping with infidelity have not walked in my shoes either. I was just saying that telling a spouse who they can be friends with is not how you last the long haul. I'm giving that advice to people who are not lasting the long haul and it's coming from someone who has. Trust. That's paramount. If there's no trust it can't work. Not for the long haul.


----------



## Joe Cool

The thread also fails to recognize that there are several stages of grief. 

Shock is one, denial, hurt, anger, acceptance. People come here at various stages and advice is given by others at various stages while you come here without the benefit of their experiences or the stages of grief and tell them the vast majority are doing it all wrong. 

How do you know? What works, works. Taking advice from someone with no experience or training in the sort of matter one is facing isn't a sound strategy.

Having advice about long term success in marriage when you have one is one thing. Questioning the wisdom of seeking facts to make the most important decision of ones life when you have never faced it is quite another.


----------



## Joe Cool

CincyBluesFan said:


> I was just saying that telling a spouse who they can be friends with is not how you last the long haul. .


I disagree that this is ALL you were saying



CincyBluesFan said:


> I'm giving that advice to people who are not lasting the long haul.


No you made it clear you are not posting in CWI so your questionable advice is posted for all members happy or not long term or not. 



CincyBluesFan said:


> Trust. That's paramount. If there's no trust it can't work. Not for the long haul.


Healthy boundaries and making sure your spouse feels secure is also paramount as is choosing your path that supports the marriage. It is not unreasonable for example for a spouse to ask their spouse to discontinue a friendship that is toxic to the marriage. 

There are many examples of toxic friendships resulting in various forms of heartbreak here on this forum. 

You are not the sort of person I think members should be taking advice from.


----------



## CincyBluesFan

Joe Cool said:


> You are not the sort of person I think members should be taking advice from.


This angry tone is why I believe a lot of people avoid that forum. We've dealt with so many issues that marriages face and came out the other side stronger than ever. If I needed advice that's exactly who I'd want it from. Advice can come from a lot of sources and should. Some advise people that their spouse should never have opposite sex friends. I can point you to many posts where people are saying that exact thing. I think that is ridiculous advice.


----------



## meson

CincyBluesFan said:


> Still, some of the advice I see for "protecting" the marriage is really bad in my opinion. Spy on your spouse's cell phone? Spy on their online activity? Tell them who their friends can and can't be? No opposite sex friends ever?
> 
> Where do these people come up with this crappolla? It's definitely not from any marriage counselor I've ever heard of. I can't imagine having to live like that. I wouldn't tolerate it if I had to do it and I wouldn't tolerate it if it was being done to me.


I for one am glad that my wife acted to “protect” the marriage. She read my email, she talked with the OW about me and it resulted in saving our marriage from my EA getting any deeper. I didn’t set out with any intent to cheat nor did I cheat but slowly over time I was headed in that direction. Because my wife and I practice transparency she was able to detect what I was going though and stop it. She indeed protected our marriage. It was in her interest to do so. If the relationship between me and the OW grew it could have ended the marriage caused us both financial hardship and hurt our kids. So she DOES have a stake in what I do just as I do in what she does. We work together to protect one another.

Its like a climbing team. When I climb with someone I don’t just close my eyes and let them do whatever. I check what they are doing and give advice about stuff like that rock is loose or the route gets easier to the right. Sometimes I can’t see what they are doing but I can trust them because when I have watched they climb responsibly. And when I go around the corner and find evidence of a risky move I will call it out. A marriage is similar. If one spouse falls it is likely to impact the other spouse and those around. It would be irresponsible not actively knowing what the other is doing in the long run. 

The rules on how to protect a marriage vary from couple to couple. Some need stricter rules than others especially if there has been an affair. The no opposite sex friends rule does work for many. It is not a rule my wife and I adhere to but having opposite sex friends DOES add risk to a marriage. It did to mine especially and now we both know how to protect our marriage better because my wife took an interest in protecting our marriage.

Before you discount the advice given here on TAM, you should actually read the many threads of spouses blindsided by betrayal from their spouse. Many said they never thought their spouse would do or behave like that. I bet that’s what you think. But have you considered the impact of being blindsided with such a tragedy? No of course not because your marriage is great. You know what; mine was great when my EA started. Our big marriage issues had been solved and we had no current ones but yet I developed feelings for a friend and was escalating the friendship inappropriately. If it hadn’t been because my wife experienced a boyfriend who had an EA turned PA when she was dating him, she might not have noticed it. I am glad she did. I didn’t even know what an EA was until I was in one but at least she did and she helped pull me out. 

You say no counselor would give such advice that you heard of. Well did you know that most counselors do not really have direct experience with affairs and infidelity whereas most of the CWI posters the on TAM have dealt with it personally? Don’t discount real experience. I know of two clinical Psychologists that had an affair and did all of the stuff that is talked about here. It turns out that they advised people on stuff that they couldn’t stop themselves from doing. To a certain degree they were hypocrites. Remember that professional counselors are people filled with emotions as well. I would much rather listen to my wife than to somebody that I pay that doesn’t really know what they are talking about anyway.


----------



## CincyBluesFan

meson said:


> mine was great when my EA started. Our big marriage issues had been solved and we had no current ones but yet I developed feelings for a friend and was escalating the friendship inappropriately.


So your marriage was great but you decided to start an EA? Hmmm. You're also saying that if your wife doesn't continue to check up on you or you her that either of you might cheat? You, again? Wow.


----------



## meson

CincyBluesFan said:


> This angry tone is why I believe a lot of people avoid that forum. We've dealt with so many issues that marriages face and came out the other side stronger than ever. If I needed advice that's exactly who I'd want it from. Advice can come from a lot of sources and should. Some advise people that their spouse should never have opposite sex friends. I can point you to many posts where people are saying that exact thing. I think that is ridiculous advice.


The advice given here doesn't work for all marriages or people. It is simply the advice that people have found works for them or their marriages based on the many real issues that they have faced. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you need to slam them on what works for them. Your post shows the insensitivity and borderline anger that you accuse others of.

Chose not to accept the advice or argue why OSFs shouldn't matter. I have OSFs and believe they can be made to work for my marriage and I often argue that point here. I think that is a more constructive way to approach it.


----------



## CincyBluesFan

meson said:


> The advice given here doesn't work for all marriages or people. It is simply the advice that people have found works for them or their marriages based on the many real issues that they have faced. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you need to slam them on what works for them. Your post shows the insensitivity and borderline anger that you accuse others of.
> 
> Chose not to accept the advice or argue why OSFs shouldn't matter. I have OSFs and believe they can be made to work for my marriage and I often argue that point here. I think that is a more constructive way to approach it.


Where did I slam anyone? I actually said listen to all advice. I give advice from the perspective of someone who has an awesome marriage after nearly 3 decades. Do we spy on each other? Heck no, that would be ridiculous. If it works for others, have at it. Spy away.


----------



## meson

CincyBluesFan said:


> So your marriage was great but you decided to start an EA? Hmmm.


That's the point it was never a conscious decision. I didnt see it but my wife did. I was oblivious to it at first.


----------



## yeah_right

I'm about to hit the 25 year mark in marriage. H had an EA just over two years ago. I used the "snooping" skills to confirm my gut feeling, find out what extent it had gone to, and used it as hard proof when gaslighting started. I had the right to snoop. We're talking about my life partner, the person who I am supposed to share everything with. If he had gone full PA, he could have put my life in danger with STD's.

Prior to this I had 100% trust in him. I mean, he was my best friend. Sure, we hadn't been as focused on each other because of kids, work, etc. but that did not mean he had the right to replace me for another woman for his emotional needs. Had I not snooped, I fully believe the relationship would have turned physical. 

The 100% trust is gone. He had always had OSF's and I was fine with that, but no longer. That's part of new boundaries we have for R. I have the right to question toxic friends. So does he. I think of it like a recovering alcoholic thinking they can still just have that one glass of wine at dinner. There's no need for a middle aged married man to be going out for dinner, drinks, movies, etc. one on one with a woman while his wife sits at home. There's no need for a wife to be on the phone for hours with a man who needs a shoulder to cry on about how his marriage is unsatisfying. If others are ok with that, fine, but not for us.

Anyway, my H is a great guy. Still my best friend. While he was pi$$sed at first about the snooping, he openly admits I had every right and says I can snoop anytime I want to make me feel better (and he is welcome to do the same on me). I hardly do anymore.

So kudos to anyone that can make it over 20 years without being impacted by infidelity. All long-term marriages have ups and downs, and major issues. I can't speak on couples who are dealing with alcohol or drug addictions, mental health issues or any number of other problems. I have no experience and would never attempt to advise on that. But I can speak on infidelity. I'm glad I snooped. I'm glad we worked through it. And I'm totally OK if others' life paths and ideas differ from mine.


----------



## CincyBluesFan

meson said:


> *That's the point it was never a conscious decision.* I didnt see it but my wife did. I was oblivious to it at first.


I hope that's not the defense you used with your wife. That's a major cop out and denial of responsibility. Don't bring that up on the coping forum or the BS's will swarm.


----------



## meson

CincyBluesFan said:


> Where did I slam anyone? I actually said listen to all advice. I give advice from the perspective of someone who has an awesome marriage after nearly 3 decades. Do we spy on each other? Heck no, that would be ridiculous. If it works for others, have at it. Spy away.


When you call their advice crapola you are slamming them and many posters here in a disrespectful manner.


----------



## CincyBluesFan

yeah_right said:


> I'm about to hit the 25 year mark in marriage. H had an EA just over two years ago. I used the "snooping" skills to confirm my gut feeling, find out what extent it had gone to, and used it as hard proof when gaslighting started. I had the right to snoop. We're talking about my life partner, the person who I am supposed to share everything with. If he had gone full PA, he could have put my life in danger with STD's.
> 
> Prior to this I had 100% trust in him. I mean, he was my best friend. Sure, we hadn't been as focused on each other because of kids, work, etc. but that did not mean he had the right to replace me for another woman for his emotional needs. Had I not snooped, I fully believe the relationship would have turned physical.
> 
> The 100% trust is gone. He had always had OSF's and I was fine with that, but no longer. That's part of new boundaries we have for R. I have the right to question toxic friends. So does he. I think of it like a recovering alcoholic thinking they can still just have that one glass of wine at dinner. There's no need for a middle aged married man to be going out for dinner, drinks, movies, etc. one on one with a woman while his wife sits at home. There's no need for a wife to be on the phone for hours with a man who needs a shoulder to cry on about how his marriage is unsatisfying.
> 
> Anyway, my H is a great guy. Still my best friend. While he was pi$$sed at first about the snooping, he openly admits I had every right and says I can snoop anytime I want to make me feel better (and he is welcome to do the same on me). I hardly do anymore.
> 
> So kudos to anyone that can make it over 20 years without being impacted by infidelity. All long-term marriages have ups and downs, and major issues. I can't speak on couples who are dealing with alcohol or drug addictions, mental health issues or any number of other problems. I have no experience and would never attempt to advise on that. But I can speak on infidelity. I'm glad I snooped. I'm glad we worked through it. And I'm totally OK if others' life paths and ideas differ from mine.


You snooped only when you had probable cause and hopefully for a temporary amount of time. Do you plan on doing it the rest of your life? If so, why would you want to put yourself through that?


----------



## Coffee Amore

I think you can affair proof yourself. You can say "I won't ever cheat," but you can't ever say honestly "My spouse won't cheat" because you can't control another person's reactions to a given situation. Your spouse is responsible for affair proofing him or herself. I've known two people at one place where I've worked who cheated during lunch time! They'd go home to their spouses at the same time end of every day and the spouses were none the wiser about what went on. So all the VAR, GPS, Keylogger won't help because you simply can't monitor someone enough to completely affair proof your marriage. There are always ways of getting around electronic monitoring. 

The best you can do is find someone who values monogamy, has great personal boundaries with the opposite sex, then stay very in tune with that person making sure their needs are met (and they meet your needs) and pay attention to the nonverbal signs when they withdraw from the relationship. Don't have blind trust, but don't get too paranoid either.

Honestly I believe the "it will never happen to me" idea is very similar to why we tend to believe we'll never be robbed, murdered, raped as well. It's always those other people, someone else to whom it happens. I actually think it's foolish to think cheating could never ever happen. It's better to acknowledge that it could theoretically happen then talk about ways to prevent it from happening in your marriage.



CincyBluesFan said:


> My observations is that a vast majority of people there don't accept that infidelity was just a symptom of the real problems with the marriage and that real problems always involve both spouses.


I hear what you're saying and as someone who to the best of my knowledge hasn't been a BS, I think it's easy for us from the sanctity of a great marriage to think this way. 

I don't want to seem like an apologist for a WS. I think it is tough for a BS to accept, especially given their anger, deep hurt, resentment and insecurities, that before the WS stepped out of the marriage there were likely deep cracks in the marriage. Over time you see there are BH who did little for the family leaving the main burden to the eventual WW or the BW who gained "a little weight" and then you find out it was about 70+ pounds or some spouse of either gender who had devoted exclusive attention to a job or hobby, or the quantity/quality of sex had greatly deteriorated over the years, etc. and any combination of these situations and more. While I understand why someone might stray from a marriage in those circumstances and I do feel some sympathy for the WS as well, I think it's still a cowardly and extremely selfish act which destroys the family and marital union.


----------



## Yeswecan

CincyBluesFan said:


> I guess on the flip side you could say the people coping with infidelity have not walked in my shoes either. I was just saying that telling a spouse who they can be friends with is not how you last the long haul. I'm giving that advice to people who are not lasting the long haul and it's coming from someone who has. Trust. That's paramount. If there's no trust it can't work. Not for the long haul.


Well sir...how is the trust returned in a case of infidelity? Through actions and openness. This would include having access to the WS electronic devices. Let's face it. They lost the "privacy" with the mishandling of the trust. Does the spying keep on going until you are pushing up daisies? No. Eventually the trust returns. However, it is the BS that throws in the towel as the act itself is enough to end the marriage. 

I'm sensing a lack of compassion. :scratchhead:


----------



## CincyBluesFan

meson said:


> When you call their advice crapola you are slamming them and many posters here in a disrespectful manner.


I don't think so. Crappolla advice is in abundance on the Internet. Bitter BS's jump right to "dump him/her. Divorce divorce divorce!" I've read it. That's probably crappolla advice too. It's probably best to seek advice from different perspectives. These forums are literally for pure opinion of the posters and nothing else. IMO, dictating to a spouse who their friends can be means you have very little chance of lasting the long haul. Long term spying on a spouse means the same thing. Spying = no trust. Trust is a 100% requirement for a successful lifetime marriage.


----------



## CincyBluesFan

Yeswecan said:


> Well sir...how is the trust returned in a case of infidelity? Through actions and openness. This would include having access to the WS electronic devices. Let's face it. They lost the "privacy" with the mishandling of the trust. Does the spying keep on going until you are pushing up daisies? No. Eventually the trust returns. However, it is the BS that throws in the towel as the act itself is enough to end the marriage.
> 
> I'm sensing a lack of compassion. :scratchhead:


There's the rub. 100% trust can probably never be returned. That's why we all teach our kids to be people of integrity. Once you give away your integrity it's virtually impossible to get it back. I think if people stay together after an affair there will never be 100% trust again and both parties need to decide if they're willing to live like that. Some can't. I couldn't. You can't be truly fulfilled by a relationship that lacks trust.


----------



## yeah_right

CincyBluesFan said:


> You snooped only when you had probable cause and hopefully for a temporary amount of time. Do you plan on doing it the rest of your life? If so, why would you want to put yourself through that?


If I need to do it again, I will...without any hesitation or guilt. And that means tomorrow or 30 years from now. I put myself through that because I chose to stay married to a man who had given me over 20 years of good before he did something very bad. 

With all of that said, if I snoop and find something in the future...I am done. That period of my life was the most painful by far and no matter how much I love him, I would divorce.

I hope that you and your wife never feel this pain. But I also hope that if either of you do get that gut feeling, that you snoop.


----------



## Pluto2

CincyBluesFan said:


> I give a lot of them credit. I wouldn't tolerate cheating for two reasons. First, and most important, is the betrayal. Second, is that I'd know that I was not enough for my spouse. If I was there would have been no cheating. I might be angry at the very beginning but I'd say we're done and move on. I'd even forgive them and wish them a good life because carrying that with you going forward could ruin any future chances at happiness in a relationship.


:scratchhead:

So you say you wouldn't tolerate infidelity. That's fine, neither did I. Of course I had to find it out first.

And you say after you discover the sting of a betrayal, a betrayal that for all you know could have existed since the start of your extremely happy marriage-you'd forgive them and wish them well. 

Sure you would


----------



## arbitrator

Joe Cool said:


> I don't like this thread. Sorry about that. Here is why.
> 
> I think it is judgmental, naïve and holier than thou despite your claims otherwise
> 
> *1. you have not walked in the shoes of any of those people
> 2. your premise is deeply flawed because no one here advocates long term spying for long term satisfaction. To suggest so is absurd.
> 
> You also seem to find gathering facts of the utmost importance to make perhaps the most important decision of ones life to end a marriage foolish.
> 
> Making a decision to end a marriage on suspicion alone or trickle truth admissions of a lying cheating spouse rather than gathering facts like a level-headed intelligent adult that practices good decision making and a reasonable level of self preservation is reckless at best and frankly unfair to everyone in the path of destruction that divorce causes.*
> 
> If it so happens that your lovely wife hits her head going down the basement stairs and ends up sneaking around boffing her opposite gender friend you so fully support her having I doubt your opinion would not change unless you are a complete fool.
> 
> Based on your other defending responses to this ill informed thread I don't expect an "I see your point"


*Trust me, Joe! The vast majority of BS's that are here at TAM, have indeed trodden in the shoes of "the betrayed"; even some repentant ones in the shoes of "the wayward." And not solely out of mere suspicion, but because of all of the later discovered evidence of the covert deception from their initial suspicion, or "gut instinct," that sadly led them to find out!

And as a two-time BS, I beg to disagree ~ this thread is not skewed in any way!*


----------



## Pluto2

But I'm not judging.....


----------



## Yeswecan

CincyBluesFan said:


> There's the rub. 100% trust can probably never be returned. That's why we all teach our kids to be people of integrity. Once you give away your integrity it's virtually impossible to get it back. I think if people stay together after an affair there will never be 100% trust again and both parties need to decide if they're willing to live like that. Some can't. I couldn't. You can't be truly fulfilled by a relationship that lacks trust.


Of course the marriage is never the same. Trust is never 100% again. But, some do R and continue on without the continued spying. 

I'm like you. If my W cheated the marriage is over. She is the same with me. Married 20 years and getting stronger everyday.


----------



## Yeswecan

*This thread will not end well.....*


----------



## CincyBluesFan

yeah_right said:


> If I need to do it again, I will...without any hesitation or guilt. And that means tomorrow or 30 years from now. I put myself through that because I chose to stay married to a man who had given me over 20 years of good before he did something very bad.
> 
> With all of that said, if I snoop and find something in the future...I am done. That period of my life was the most painful by far and no matter how much I love him, I would divorce.
> 
> I hope that you and your wife never feel this pain. But I also hope that if either of you do get that gut feeling, that you snoop.


You believe in giving 2nd chances, that is compassionate of you. You don't believe in giving 3rd chances. That is wise of you.


----------



## CincyBluesFan

Yeswecan said:


> Of course the marriage is never the same. Trust is never 100% again. But, some do R and continue on without the continued spying.
> 
> I'm like you. If my W cheated the marriage is over. She is the same with me. Married 20 years and getting stronger everyday.


That's awesome! I like to hear other long-term married people proudly profess. I actually saw someone on facebook one day proudly announce their 25th anniversary and there were actually some snide comments about not shoving it in people's faces.

I do admire the determination of people committed to reconciliation. Especially when they admit they can never 100% trust the person ever again. What hell that would be to live under for me.


----------



## Yeswecan

CincyBluesFan said:


> You believe in giving 2nd chances, that is compassionate of you. You don't believe in giving 3rd chances. That is wise of you.


Fool me once..fool me twice...you know the rest...


----------



## CincyBluesFan

Pluto2 said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> So you say you wouldn't tolerate infidelity. That's fine, neither did I. Of course I had to find it out first.
> 
> And you say after you discover the sting of a betrayal, a betrayal that for all you know could have existed since the start of your extremely happy marriage-you'd forgive them and wish them well.
> 
> Sure you would


Anger and bitterness are dangerous bags to carry with you. That's because they don't stay the same weight. The longer you carry them the heavier they get until they crush you. Then you're betrayed and destroyed. I didn't say I've never been betrayed. I just haven't been betrayed by my wife nor would I ever betray her. For those who did betray me I wished them a happy life and cut all ties with them. There's no point in keeping negative influences around in your life. Life is far too short for that.


----------



## meson

CincyBluesFan said:


> I don't think so. Crappolla advice is in abundance on the Internet. Bitter BS's jump right to "dump him/her. Divorce divorce divorce!" I've read it. That's probably crappolla advice too. It's probably best to seek advice from different perspectives. These forums are literally for pure opinion of the posters and nothing else. IMO, dictating to a spouse who their friends can be means you have very little chance of lasting the long haul. Long term spying on a spouse means the same thing. Spying = no trust. Trust is a 100% requirement for a successful lifetime marriage.


My marriage would be a counter example to your view on trust. So far 25 years strong. Verifying a spouses actions leads to trust it does not mean there is no trust. It helps keep a marriage on track. There is trust in our marriage but verification. There is no dictatorship going on. You are taking extreme viewpoints and suggesting its the advice of the forum and as you have seen from the responses to your thread it's not.


----------



## CincyBluesFan

meson said:


> My marriage would be a counter example to your view on trust. So far 25 years strong. Verifying a spouses actions leads to trust it does not mean there is no trust. It helps keep a marriage on track. There is trust in our marriage but verification. There is no dictatorship going on. You are taking extreme viewpoints and suggesting its the advice of the forum and as you have seen from the responses to your thread it's not.


You say "25 years strong" but didn't you admit you were starting an affair? Was that part of the "strong" period?


----------



## yeah_right

CincyBluesFan said:


> I don't think so. Crappolla advice is in abundance on the Internet. Bitter BS's jump right to "dump him/her. Divorce divorce divorce!" I've read it. That's probably crappolla advice too. It's probably best to seek advice from different perspectives. These forums are literally for pure opinion of the posters and nothing else. * IMO, dictating to a spouse who their friends can be means you have very little chance of lasting the long haul.* Long term spying on a spouse means the same thing. Spying = no trust. Trust is a 100% requirement for a successful lifetime marriage.


His friend turned into his EA. It happened gradually and not on purpose, but escalated quickly (I have the history from snooping to show it). So I had every right to dictate that the friendship must end. For a while, he still insisted that she was just a friend and that he had the right to have friends. Do you think I was wrong to force a termination of the friendship? I mean, they didn't have sex.

Do you have any limits on what's ok for OSF in your marriage? Is it fine for your wife to email and call a male friend? How often? If she sends 1000 texts a month to him, is that ok? Can she go alone to his house on Saturday night to help him cook dinner? Would you say something if they shared flirty banter? What if her friend was a player? I'm just making up scenarios here. Even if she doesn't have OSF, let's pretend that she did. Would you ever draw a line or set any limits?

I'm just asking questions here. There is no absolute right or wrong on how two people choose to run their marriage. There's really no need for people to argue on this discussion. Both sides believe their way is right because of the way their own marriage has unfolded.

Cincy, before this happened I would have been on board with your original post. Circumstances in life caused a change. That's life.


----------



## Yeswecan

CincyBluesFan said:


> Anger and bitterness are dangerous bags to carry with you. That's because they don't stay the same weight. The longer you carry them the heavier they get until they crush you.


The anger and bitterness do not have a time clock unfortunately. Some will carry it forever. It does not crush everyone. They carry the burden and learn to live with it.


----------



## CincyBluesFan

Yeswecan said:


> The anger and bitterness do not have a time clock unfortunately. Some will carry it forever. It does not crush everyone. They carry the burden and learn to live with it.


I know. I've seen it. I've also seen that it hampers the person's ability to ever be truly happy again. Gotta set those bags down and move on.


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## CincyBluesFan

yeah_right said:


> His friend turned into his EA. It happened gradually and not on purpose, but escalated quickly (I have the history from snooping to show it). So I had every right to dictate that the friendship must end. For a while, he still insisted that she was just a friend and that he had the right to have friends. Do you think I was wrong to force a termination of the friendship? I mean, they didn't have sex.
> 
> Do you have any limits on what's ok for OSF in your marriage? Is it fine for your wife to email and call a male friend? How often? If she sends 1000 texts a month to him, is that ok? Can she go alone to his house on Saturday night to help him cook dinner? Would you say something if they shared flirty banter? What if her friend was a player? I'm just making up scenarios here. Even if she doesn't have OSF, let's pretend that she did. Would you ever draw a line or set any limits?
> 
> I'm just asking questions here. There is no absolute right or wrong on how two people choose to run their marriage. There's really no need for people to argue on this discussion. Both sides believe their way is right because of the way their own marriage has unfolded.
> 
> Cincy, before this happened I would have been on board with your original post. Circumstances in life caused a change. That's life.


But are you ok with having to peek over his shoulder the rest of your life? What about your happiness?


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## Threetimesalady

You cannot talk their talk until you have walked their walk....

Because of your post when I have time I am going to again post my post on "The Day That Changed My Life" and the response to myself of "Would I Take Him Back If He Cheated On Me"....I do not say this to promote my thread, but to speak of life after 56 plus years of marriage...

IMO, you are kind of putting salt on an open wound...


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## Yeswecan

CincyBluesFan said:


> I know. I've seen it. I've also seen that it hampers the person's ability to ever be truly happy again. Gotta set those bags down and move on.


It will hamper some and I would guess it would be more of a form of depression than a burden. If that makes sense. I can not say I have seen someone not put the bags down and move on. I'm sure they are out there but I can not recall were a family member or friend did not move on to bigger and better things.


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## Yeswecan

Threetimesalady said:


> You cannot talk their talk until you have walked their walk....


*Never a truer statement! *


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## DoneWithHurting

Trust, Trust, Trust...

But...

We are all human with weaknesses we don't even know about until tested. There are tests EVERYONE will fail. Just because we are human.

Trust only goes so far. Once a spouse losses it, monitoring and OSF limits are ways to move forward without D.

I limit who my wife works with on a one on one teaching basis in my home. I don't need to be looking over my shoulder all the time.

My thoughts are why put gasoline in the same room with a flame thrower?

I also think if there is CSA history the whole deal changes. I also think many on TAM have spouses who are survivors of CSA and don't even realize it.


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## Pluto2

CincyBluesFan said:


> Anger and bitterness are dangerous bags to carry with you. That's because they don't stay the same weight. The longer you carry them the heavier they get until they crush you. Then you're betrayed and destroyed. I didn't say I've never been betrayed. I just haven't been betrayed by my wife nor would I ever betray her. For those who did betray me I wished them a happy life and cut all ties with them. There's no point in keeping negative influences around in your life. Life is far too short for that.


Good to know I'm not being judged.

I'm just being "crushed" "betrayed" and "destroyed".

Honestly dude, you have no idea what you are talking about, you really don't
Good luck to you
I'm done here


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## arbitrator

Yeswecan said:


> *This thread will not end well.....*


*And Neither Will This:*


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## meson

CincyBluesFan said:


> You say "25 years strong" but didn't you admit you were starting an affair? Was that part of the "strong" period?


I would say so yes. My wife spoke up and I listened. We communicated to a degree that would not have been possible a few years before when our marriage was at a low point. It is clear from your questions and assumptions that you don't understand the dynamics of attraction and it's potential escalation into an affair. I hope you don't experience it first hand because with your toolbox you will be unable to cope with it. You may assume it won't happen to you but it just might like CoffeeAmore said. 

So yes the fact that we successfully navigated something that could have destroyed our marriage with the tools you say shouldn't be used is a mark of the success of my marriage. You will be in for a rude awakening if it ever happens to you.


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## yeah_right

CincyBluesFan said:


> But are you ok with having to peek over his shoulder the rest of your life? What about your happiness?


I'm happy. Still married to my best friend and having a blast now that the kids are grown. And I am hopeful that with our revised boundaries in place I don't have to peek over him for the rest of my life.

Did you think about the OSF questions I also posted? You don't have to answer here. Just want people to get an idea of why boundaries are important to several of the folks on this thread. I know I never worried about boundaries before the EA. I'm also one who said I'd immediately divorce at the first hint of affair. I've also said I wouldn't stay with someone who had a drinking problem or bipolar disorder. I've told friends to leave husbands with those issues. I no longer give advice in absolutes.


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## Yeswecan

The issue here in this thread started with, "I'm not judging...". When you being a conversation with that sentence you are in essence judging. Perhaps starting the threat with...Let's discuss the dynamics of why some continue to spy and look over the shoulder of the WS.


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## GTdad

I know that the experience gained in 29 years of marriage can't be discounted. But.

I've been married for 31 years, and I'm still figuring sh*t out. Sometimes I feel that I don't have a good grasp on the questions, let alone the answers. And despite those years and being a pretty bright guy, I'd gladly defer to the wisdom of those who have been there and done that.

Now, do we sometimes see folks get a little over-zealous in their views and approach? Sure, it being the internetz and all.


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## meson

yeah_right said:


> His friend turned into his EA. It happened gradually and not on purpose, but escalated quickly (I have the history from snooping to show it). So I had every right to dictate that the friendship must end. For a while, he still insisted that she was just a friend and that he had the right to have friends. Do you think I was wrong to force a termination of the friendship? I mean, they didn't have sex.
> 
> Do you have any limits on what's ok for OSF in your marriage? Is it fine for your wife to email and call a male friend? How often? If she sends 1000 texts a month to him, is that ok? Can she go alone to his house on Saturday night to help him cook dinner? Would you say something if they shared flirty banter? What if her friend was a player? I'm just making up scenarios here. Even if she doesn't have OSF, let's pretend that she did. Would you ever draw a line or set any limits?
> 
> I'm just asking questions here. There is no absolute right or wrong on how two people choose to run their marriage. There's really no need for people to argue on this discussion. Both sides believe their way is right because of the way their own marriage has unfolded.
> 
> Cincy, before this happened I would have been on board with your original post. Circumstances in life caused a change. That's life.


:iagree:

If you claim OSFs are fine then you must be able to answer these questions. Boundaries are the heart of the toolbox to protect a marriage.


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