# For those who want to stay for the kids



## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

This is the first thread i open here in TAM, but not the original reason I joined or began to investigate about healthy relationships, I understand is a contributor of my whole problems and internal issues.

this story is about my parent's relationship, and what me and my sisters think of it after almost 10 years of they being separated.

Also before telling the story, I want to tell you that my mother is a good and respectable woman and besides the story i am about to tell she has never failed in any other aspect as a mother, and not she was not the WS.

my father was 31 when he married my 22 years old not yet mother, i was the first born, and 4 and 5 years later my two sisters came in to the picture.

everything was pretty normal in my house, there were never significant problems, normal couple's fights, my father was/is succesful doctor, so financial problems were never a issue in my house.

All began when i was 15, my father since i have memory, had worked night shift in the hospital 3 days a week besides his private practice, so everybody in the family knew his schedule and where he was without fail. That changed when i was 15, he began to have more shifts in the hospital, but unlike all the previous years this were sporadic days. also when he was supposed to be in his private practice, sometimes we called and he was not there.

also until that moment I maybe had seen my father drunk less than 10 times in my life, but then he began to come home at least 1 a week smelling like alcohol and sometimes times drunk.

i think everybody in the family felt something was off, but the first months we just ignored it, maybe in denial, thinking that my father was not capable to do something immoral, after all he was very respected in the community and was very strict en cuanto a what is right and wrong.

my mother began to be on edge all the time, every little detail made her burst on anger, one day she was on the kitchen and was cutting the vegetables he had put broccoli, i said something like "not broccoli again", and that was enough to began huge fight against me, i told her "chill out! mom, you are on edge all the time", then she said, how would you feel if your husband were cheating on you? (thinking back, how would i know? i was on my first girlfriend, and was a very short thing).

Well she tell me what she was suspecting (as I was) and she told me some friends of her told her the rumors of my father seeing a divorced woman. (this was when my hell began).

At the begining she sent me to check in my car if my father was really where he was supposed to be, maybe two times a week, sometimes he was there other times he was not.

also my parents began to fight almost every day, we (my sisters and I) had never hear them screaming to each other like that.

my mother confronted him indirectly some times but he always denied, as delusions of a jealous woman, sometimes my mother would woke me up at 2 am (night shift) to go and check if my father's car was at the hospital.

finally one day one of my friends (his father was also a doctor who moved in the same social circle) confirmed me that my father was having and affair with the supposed divorced woman.

that was maybe 3 months after my mother shared her suspicions with me, after that the first one to confront my father directly was me, my father told me that my mother was putting ideas in my head, but I confronted him telling him what I knew, the name of the woman, and where she lived,I asked him if he would like for the 2 of us to go with the woman to see if I was delusional, I told him that i was dissapointed on him, how he always was strict with us and unforgiving with thing related to moral and legal issues, i was kind of crying when a iwas telling him this, I told him that i have not told my sisters yet, and i did not wanted to tell them, just my mother and me knee at the time (not true, I had not told my mother what my friend informed me yet, I wanted to talk to him first and then speak to her).

After I confronted him, I told my mother she confronted him too and he promised he would no do it again.

Things began to be normal for a while, but little after that, my mother began to be sarcastic, acid, she would rent movies with topics related to infidelity, many comments related cheaters a how despicable they were (she would do it in dinner and meal times when all the family was together), so many unconfortable dinners. My sisters began to ask what was happening (now I know she was lashing and wasa normal reaction, but at that time i did not understand the need to always make every moment unconfortable).

I was 16 when all the confession thing was done, eventually my sisters found out about the affair situation. My mother continued checking on my father and driving to his office and the hospital, and she requested me more often to go and check on my father location.

during that year they fought all the time, my mother continued to lashing at him, making unconfortable family gatherings and my father began to express that he was not happy anymore, whe I turned 17 was the first time my father spoke to me about not being happy and that he will probably look for another place to live (the classic: things are not working with your mother anymore, but I still love you all), my mother then changed her aptitude she began saying things like "we have to stay together for the kids".

To be honest I was already feed up with all the fights, the unpleasant dinners, the obssesion of my mother to confirm where my father was, so I feel relieved when my father said he was leaving, but my mother convinced him to stay (I remember the frase we have to work it out for the kids, I heard that frase many times).

to be continued....


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

After that, my mother stop lashing at my father, but they still keep fighting for stupids things all the time, my mother now asked almost daily to accompany her to check on my father of requesting me to go and check by myself, she would call me at any hour to do it, while i was with my GF, while i was in parties with my friends, at late night, i had always to came with stupid excuses to stop hanging with my friends and keep playing PI.

I finally refused, I was tired, I told her that my father had already stated that he wanted to leave and she knew it, if she wanted to kept him under the radar to do it herself or let him go, and my mother got angry then something that i did not expect began to happen, she began to lash against me.

First it began with comments like, "oooh well all the men are the same, you are covering so he can keep ****ing women at my back"

I was astonished, in the begining i tried to make her understand that she was wrong, but she keep ranting against me and the comments became nastier.

let me put some that I remember:

"you are despicable how can you support your father affairs you are my son"
"you know what, i have decided it i am also began to sleep with men at his back"
"so you like to cover your father, then you will also cover for my right"


she began to tell my sisters and her family side that i was supporting my father with her affairs, the irony of this is that as she was pestering me about my father affairs, she stopped lashing against my father and became all sweet and gentle towards him.


to be continued....


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

There is no staying for the kids... There is repentance and forgiveness, but not everyone is capable of that. I am sorry to here your story. You had to grow up way to early.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

she began to tell my sisters and her family side that i was supporting my father with her affairs, the irony of this is that as she was pestering me about my father affairs, she stopped lashing against my father and became all sweet and gentle towards him.

She lashed against me just when we were alone, nobody was aware to her actions and accusations.

I remember this time when i was in the computer room (using the computer), and she suddenly entered and closed the door and began screaming at me how men are scum and how all men are the same and how all of us are cheaters (she was kind of crying) etc. Then we heard the engine of my father's car she opened the door and while my father was arriving home she said to him "hi honey dinner is ready" I remember feeling something really close to hate towards her.

I began losing weight, i stopped eating, I just didn't want to arrive home, I began to be out of home as much as possible.

she became more delusional she began to tell me how I already have meet with the other woman and how people have seen my father, the other woman and me eating in restaturants.

One day my grandmother (on her side) called home and I answered the phone, she was crying a telling how could I be mistreating my own mother that way?, and that she will come to my home and take her daugther away from us, i remember after that call i went to my room and began to cry, also one of my uncles (one of her 4 brothers) spoke to me for the same reason (all my mother's family is in another state).

I remember that I began to see everything kind of gray, I remember even if the day was hot, and the sun was intense, I could feel my skin hot, but I was feeling cold in my hands and inside my body, I remember that one of the things that help me throught this was jogging, i began to run the 400 meters track daily, first 10 times, then later became 20 times, then later became 20 times in the morning and 20 times in the night, I remember the endorphines help me to feel much better.

to be continued....


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

While all of this was happening, I am sure that at some point my father restarted her affair again, but now it was underground, there were more talks about leaving the home, and more "let's make it work for the kids" from my mother, and then I turned 20 and I was already in college in the same city, but i was absolutly feed up with all the situation, so I told my father i wanted to go backpacker, I was running away, I wanted to have a break from the whole situation ( to be honest the affair did not affected me as much as my mother's mental abuse).

My father forbidden it, he told me i had to finish college, have a career and then do with my life whatever I wanted, (at that point I had not told nobody what was happening with my mother), At the begining my mother and father thought i was joking, when they realized this was not the case, they try to talk seriously with me, I refused.

my mother begged me to stay, I think that in a twisted way i was her mental support. I took my savings and went to another state with a friend who just moved to an appartment to go to college, I began working as dishwasher and I felt much better being away from all the problems .

2 months after I moved my mother called me telling me that my father have finally moved out, I felt that my mother was also blaming me for my father leaving home, as if I was there he had never had the courage to leave home (my father have always been proud of me telling that i am a improved version of himself more taller, more athletic, more handsome, we look a sound alike)

to be continued....


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

almost 8 months later I returned home ( I turned 21 when i was there so i had really fun times and good memories, but also found alot of married women doing things they are not supposed to do, i think that just reinforced my intolerance/mistrust to women but that is for other Thread), when i returned, I embraced my family, I gave them some souvenirs, and then I whistled to my dog, then my mother began giggling and told me she warned about giving away my dog for problems with the neighboors, (she called me 3 months before, telling me to found her a home with my friends, I refused and she never touch the topic again), I got furious, i screamed at her as never before I told her she did it for revenge because I left home, she denied giving me stupids arguments of why she had to give her away.
( I loved that dog, since i was 6 i have been asking for a dog in my birthday, christmas, and any special reward acassion, but my father hated pets, so only after 8 years of requesting the same, they finally allowed me to have the dog).

even with my father gone, my mother continued with the comments like:

"So did you already bonded with your father's new GF"
"you are a mercenary, you are in your father side becuase he have money"
"you have no morals, you sell your respect for money"

To this point other thing happened, I detached from my mother, i just did not care what came from her mouth, it did not affected me anymore, sometimes I even found the comments funny, she began to make the comments in front of my sisters, and my sisters began to be angry at my mother (they were now 16 and 15).

One day we were eating a she say something like "you are just like your father , he is gone but left her horrible personality with you"

my youngest sister got angry a told her, mother stop the crap already, my father is not a demon and Manticore is not the son of demons, so stop bull****ing him aready.

eventually my mother stopped this behaviour, a think it was when we fought on her side on the divorce

but until today my relationship with my mother have not healed, and something that makes me angry now, is that she denies telling and making much o the things she said and did.

I know in my brain that what she did was in part consequence of my father betrayal and her way to cope with her paind a distress, but my hearth have his own thoughts and know that there were many ways to cope with her problems but abusing me.

for many years i was not able to have serious relationship with women, I went to IC where i expressed to my therapist that women were emotional beings that cannot be trusted because they let they emotions overcome logic and act in stupid ways (i know it sounds misogynist, I am sorry if a I am ofending someone but that was like I really used to think).

Before my actual girlfriend I opened just to two women before, one in college and one in my middle 20's, both were party girls, with strong personalities, and the kind of woman who had more male friends than women, both very attractive, but my relationship with them was that of a best friend and non sexual.

i knew everything about them, mestrual cycle, number of sexual partners, darkest secrets, sexual experiences, likes and dislikes on intimacy as they knew mine, both helped me with their friends or girls they knew I have interst in, if I requested it, and they asked me for favors that they will normally not ask to a male friends, like urgently help them to go to the drug store for the pill of the after day, or pregnancy test.

My IC told me I transfromed them in to guys that is why was able to bond like that in a nonsexual way.

Next conclusion...


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

my sisters and I agree that it have been better if they had divorced the first time my father suggested separation, they just keep fighting for another 5 years making themselves and us suffer without neccesity.

we 3 concur that when my father left home we were so stressed about the fights, unconfortable feelings, that we feel relieved instead of feeling sadness .

when my father left home our bond with him did not dissapeared or decreased, maybe it was the other way around, we now planned before hand what activities we were gonna do with him and how expend time with him.

we understood that he was not leaving us, yes we were resentful for having an affair (more my sisters than me, for the problems I had with my mother), and hurting our mother, so it was not like my sisters accepted him in the begining but that was for the affair not for him leaving home.

so My conclusion is, if both parties really want to work out the relationship, and i mean 100% commited then is worth the try, but if one is not and only is staying for the good of the kids, I advise to forget that notion, you may end hurting them more that helping them.

my father was not and he also hurt my mother more in the end.

I wrote this Thread more to let out my feelings, and ,maybe help me to completly forgive my mother once for all.

if you read all, thanks for your patience


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

MovingAhead said:


> There is no staying for the kids... There is repentance and forgiveness, but not everyone is capable of that. I am sorry to here your story. You had to grow up way to early.


agree unless both spouses want really to fix the problem with 100% resolution, half commitment will just prolong the inevitable


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## ne9907 (Jul 17, 2013)

Manticore, thank you for sharing your story with us.

I believe that is better for a couple to divorce than imprinting hurtful memories in their children.

My father and mother fought all the time. My mother always accused my father of cheating, she would also say hurtful things to us children. She would say to the girls (I have 3 sisters) that men only want one thing and one thing only. THat love didn't exist, etc etc etc.
I grew up feeling unloved and not wanting to ever get married...
Low and behold, I met someone who I thought loved me more than anything and got married to him. 

THings were not great but they were good. Of course, I shared my childhood with him.
So whenever my stbxh started having EA, being secretive, being aloof, I would ask if anything was wrong. He would then say "you are acting just like your mother"
I would stop asking, I would rugsweep, I never wanted to get a divorce. 
So here I am 15 years later. I felt guilty when I asked for a separation, I thought I was imagining things and acting like my mother even though deep inside I knew all the red flags were real.
My marriage emotionally wreck me. I am a poor insecure shadow (I am working on getting better).

I think it is better to get a divorce than live life hating each other and leaving all these baggage to children.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

agreed, I am talktive, funny, good listener, and i always use stories of my life or my friends to relate topics we are talking to not let conversations die, so many women confused social skills, with being emotionally open, more that one told me in my younger days that I was a emotionally stone


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

I am sorry to hear your story. I have to say that your mom's psyche was most likely damaged to an extreme with what your father did to her. I know how hard it has been for me and I know how hard your mother had it.

Just remember that. She is probably a little bit broken, but she does love you so please try to forgive her.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

MovingAhead said:


> I am sorry to hear your story. I have to say that your mom's psyche was most likely damaged to an extreme with what your father did to her. I know how hard it has been for me and I know how hard your mother had it.
> 
> Just remember that. She is probably a little bit broken, but she does love you so please try to forgive her.


I think that the fact that she now denies many of the things she said, make it more difficult.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

manticore;

thank you for your heartfelt and illuminating story. I read the whole thing. I sense like the others that the extreme hurt your mother endured actually drove her mad.

I once worked with an older woman, who I knew liked me (not sexually, just as a human being), but one day, I said something I thought was innocent that triggered her, and she flashed angry eyes at me and said something really nasty, uncalled for.

my colleague overheard and whispered to me; "it wasn't about you, it's because your a man!". I realized when he said that, that she had a long term relationship previously was in love with a supposed Christian man who serial cheated on her. she never got over that. all men were bad. I just happened to be there and say something.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

my ex long term gf was married for 34 years to an extreme narcissist abuser. he was emotionally, physically and spiritually abusive. he once raped her sodomized while she was drugged and sent her to the hospital. she almost had to have a colostomy his attack was so severe. he sent her to the hospital several times.
finally after the 4th time he sent her to the hospital, she realized he was going to kill her she left. 

she was a very intelligent self sufficient woman with a good career. she was not financially dependent on him. but she always told me "I only stayed 34 years because of the kids. I would walk in front of a truck for them". 

Some of the things he did and/or said to her would shock even the people on TAM. yet she stayed 'for the kids'.

far be it from me to be judgemental because I have never thank God been in this situation. I say this without judgment to individuals, every case is different, but rather collectively, I think there are far too, way too many people enduring cheating, physical abuse, mental abuse and complete @$$holism for too long 'because of the kids'.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Sometimes "staying for the kids" is a little more nuanced than "shouty mum and dad life is Hell" vs an "organised every other weekend Hollywood ex's now get on" deal.

Imagine a scenario where you know your spouse will likely hook up with a loser, where, because of the skewed legal system she will still get custody, where an ex might be manipulated by using access to the children. Where the kids will be on their own for extended periods without their father there. Where the type of loser the spouse with primary care for the kids would hook up with would not be a good role model; would have the other spouse neglecting them - not enough to cause the courts to get involved, but in a going out most of the time, not spending time with them, unable to help with the homework, way.

What about if the spouse that leaves is the main carer, but being a man this counts for nothing?

I speak to quite a few adults whose parents split up and they say they were kind of glad. I honestly haven't met one whose parents stayed together that expressed regret for it.

Perhaps I've been lucky, or perhaps this area is the subject of a powerful - and entirely understandable - confirmatory bias.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

That was a moving story. Parents do not always perform like adults and they pass their dysfunctional behavior on to the next generation. Your mother's abuse was horrible and her refusal to admit makes in worse.

My father abused me emotionally as child. My mother knows it and I would like to say something to her. But she is her 80s and I can't bring myself to end her life in a depression.

Sadly, though, I find it difficult to call her and write her. I resent her inability to stand up to my father. I know she couldn't. He was angry and would have given her a terrible fury in response. 

The sad thing is once they get older they don't have the strength to be angry. It just winds down without any justice. Sometimes I would just like to swear and curse or guzzle a bottle of whisky. Bet you felt the same way at times.

There a few spelling/typos that you could fix, but thank you for sharing.

Where you ever able to go college? You didn't remain a dishwasher, but I expect you did that punish your folks. I dreamed of running away. Man, it sucks when the people who love you betray you when you are vulnerable. I think that betrayal is comparable to infidelity. I read about infidelity and think about child abuse.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

jorgegene said:


> far be it from me to be judgemental because I have never thank God been in this situation. I say this without judgment to individuals, every case is different, but rather collectively, I think there are far too, way too many people enduring cheating, physical abuse, mental abuse and complete @$$holism for too long 'because of the kids'.


yes but this kind of circunastances end being worst, I have hear many times people saying that they don't split up because they want to give to the children a home with two parents, but they are so dysfunctional together that i doubt that they can be as efficient as a single parent with his/her psyche at 100%.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> I speak to quite a few adults whose parents split up and they say they were kind of glad. I honestly haven't met one whose parents stayed together that expressed regret for it.
> 
> Perhaps I've been lucky, or perhaps this area is the subject of a powerful - and entirely understandable - confirmatory bias.


Chris you have to understand that people don't talk about this subjects easily, I have never shared this story as detailed with my friends or GF's, when my parents divorced, people felt bad for my family and told me many times "what a shame", or "I hope you are doing all right",I never answered them, "dont worry, things at home were awful, i was so happy when they split", I just said "thank you".

If my parents, were still together today at my 31 years, things probably will be still awful, the difference is that I am in my appartment where I dont have to endure all that my mother did to me.

If they were still toghether I probably will had never shared that story to the few friends i have been close enough to let them know part of the events that happened back then.

I would be probably acting as if everything were all right at home, just visiting in holydays and special dates.

To this day I have never told my father all the things my mother said and did to me back then.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> My father abused me emotionally as child. My mother knows it and I would like to say something to her. But she is her 80s and I can't bring myself to end her life in a depression.
> 
> Sadly, though, I find it difficult to call her and write her. I resent her inability to stand up to my father.


I understand you

the first time I confronted my mother about the past (in my middle 20's), besides denying and justifying most of what happened, she also told me that in her times sons/daugthers never confronted their parents, that her mother also have done and said things to her when she was young, but she was respectful enough to not fight her for the past.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

manticore said:


> I understand you
> 
> the first time I confronted my mother about the past (in my middle 20's), besides denying and justifying most of what happened, she also told me that in her times sons/daugthers never confronted their parents, that her mother also have done and said things to her when she was young, but she was respectful enough to not fight her for the past.


It took a lot of heart to write your story and I just want to say I hear you loud and clear. It's difficult enough, but to put that kind of resentment onto your children is unspeakable.

It does not matter if sons and daughters didn't confront their parents in the past (which I think is the reason for a lot of dysfunction), you confront her and she has the obligation to deal with her mistakes. Sadly, it doesn't look like she will. It leaves you to deal with it on your own and I am sorry this happened to you. Maybe if you can get a good therapist (sorry if you have already, don't remember reading that if you did) there will be an easier and faster route to healing. I understand trauma takes years and years to heal from. I am just wishing you the best.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

manticore said:


> I understand you
> 
> the first time I confronted my mother about the past (in my middle 20's), besides denying and justifying most of what happened, she also told me that in her times sons/daugthers never confronted their parents, that her mother also have done and said things to her when she was young, but she was respectful enough to not fight her for the past.


Your story, by the way, is heartbreaking and thanks for posting it.


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## Almost There (Oct 23, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> Sometimes "staying for the kids" is a little more nuanced than "shouty mum and dad life is Hell" vs an "organised every other weekend Hollywood ex's now get on" deal.
> 
> Imagine a scenario where you know your spouse will likely hook up with a loser, where, because of the skewed legal system she will still get custody, where an ex might be manipulated by using access to the children. Where the kids will be on their own for extended periods without their father there. Where the type of loser the spouse with primary care for the kids would hook up with would not be a good role model; would have the other spouse neglecting them - not enough to cause the courts to get involved, but in a going out most of the time, not spending time with them, unable to help with the homework, way.
> 
> ...


I'm very happy that my parents divorced, and my boyfriend wishes his parents would have divorced.

I have close family ties to a family law attorney. If you can prove to be a more stable environment for your kids, you will get majority custody. Most of the time, it's a 50/50 split right now. I've seen several cases that have given the fathers priority because the mother either didn't want it, made legal mistakes, or the father simply proved to be the better parent. If either parent EVER uses the children as bargaining chips, or threatens "if you don't do xyz, I'll withhold visitation" (talking either to force the other parent into something, or to force the child(ren) into something), it can be used against them in court and the judge will NOT be pleased. In those cases, the 'bargaining' parent will ALWAYS get penalized regarding visitation, and will most likely lose primary custody of the child(ren).

I still hold that the best thing you can do as a man (or woman) is to model your life after a life you'd want your kids to make for themselves. I felt remarkably guilty when my mother told me she felt like she had to stay and try to make things work with my dad because of me. Was divorce easy? No. But it was the better option.

Thank you for sharing your story, manticore. My family wasn't abusive or anything, but my dad cheated on my mom relentlessly and when she found out, she was devastated. After 5 years of counseling and therapy and relapses, she couldn't stay anymore because she was becoming someone she didn't even recognize... kinda like your mom, I would guess. She said she was grumpy, unhappy all the time, and she even noticed herself snapping at me. That's when she realized she really did have to leave, for her own sanity and, in the end, my well being as well.

She taught me that standing up for yourself and saying "I deserve better; I deserve to be happy" is something everyone should do. I'm proud that she had the cajones to leave my dad! I know she'd never want me in that situation... and I didn't want her in it, either. I don't know how she lived with him after what he did.. I really don't.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> There a few spelling/typos that you could fix, but thank you for sharing.


I will re read all my story to check on it, thanks for the clarification, the truth is that english is not my primary language, writing that much in english is kind of hard and tiring.



LongWalk said:


> Where you ever able to go college? You didn't remain a dishwasher, but I expect you did that punish your folks. I dreamed of running away. Man, it sucks when the people who love you betray you when you are vulnerable. I think that betrayal is comparable to infidelity. I read about infidelity and think about child abuse.


I did returned to college, when I was gone my paternal grandfather died, that was one of the things that made me come back, and from there my life returned to it's usual pace


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

Almost There said:


> I'm very happy that my parents divorced, and my boyfriend wishes his parents would have divorced.
> 
> I have close family ties to a family law attorney. If you can prove to be a more stable environment for your kids, you will get majority custody. Most of the time, it's a 50/50 split right now. I've seen several cases that have given the fathers priority because the mother either didn't want it, made legal mistakes, or the father simply proved to be the better parent. If either parent EVER uses the children as bargaining chips, or threatens "if you don't do xyz, I'll withhold visitation" (talking either to force the other parent into something, or to force the child(ren) into something), it can be used against them in court and the judge will NOT be pleased. In those cases, the 'bargaining' parent will ALWAYS get penalized regarding visitation, and will most likely lose primary custody of the child(ren).


Thank you for your comments. 

As for custody, I live in the UK so I'm afraid I simply wouldn't get it. My mother has worked in family courts for most of her professional life so I'm pretty sure of the outcome.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Wow, thats quite a story.

you sound like your dealing with such a crappy faimly life pretty good as far as I can tell. kudos to you!

as far a your mother is conserned. maybe put the spin on it. your mother was so devistated that your father could and did cheat on her she couldn't handle it properly. In my opinion she a mental break down and your father enabled it but not just divorcing her when he realised he didn't love her.

Its also a possibility that your mother had mental problems/emotional problems their whole marriage and thats what drove your father to cheat in the first place.

But in the end what matters now is how you conduct your life. and as far as what I've read you seem to be doing darn good. 

just posting your story tells something about you. You want others to know that staying for the kids is not always or maybe never the right thing to do. Its hard to know each and every situation is different. not all families had as much going on as your did.

on a final note its up to each and everyone to navigate these type of situations as best they can. is there an absolute right and wrong way ....I don't think it ever that easy.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

*Sad update*

Well, this is something that I Never thought I wold have to do.

I have decided (and I already told it to her) that I would take my mother completly out of my life, I told her that unless is an emergency (and I mean she dying in her last moments) I do not wish any kind of contact wit her, she just keep being toxic to me, she at my age (31 years old) is the only person whose comments still make me want to cry.

as a note for those Betrayed spouses who come to the CWI forum, I want to tell you this to not made the same mistake as my mother:

We kids are not stupids we many times hold a grudge and resentment (not necesarely for all our life) against the WS we know that he/she is the responsible for tearing appart our family, but we also know that his/her actions does not mean that he/she hate us, see my case for axample, what my father did hurt all our family the first one to confront it was me, his despicable bahaviour that was hurting our family.

in my own perspective I was hurt and betrayed I felt at the time like if my father has choosen this OW over his wife and family, but then after my confrontation (and my mother's confrontation after the one I did) my father gave reconcilation a chance (not because he wanted my mother but because of his 3 kids, big mistake according to me), and this is when all my mother rage and bitternes began, please note as BS that this is very important.

My mother made our life (and specially mine if you have read my thread) a living hell, she never forgave my father and she tried R to maintain the status quo but she vented her anger and pain against us (*SPECIALLY ME*) what she never realized is that while I was angry towards my father fo his affair an betraying our family I differiancited that my father's affair was selfish and cruel but was never meant to hurt me, while my mother's rants and vents where against me when I did not deserved them.

that is I am against reconcilation unless the BS can honestly leave bahind his/her hate otherwise he/she will end hurting his/her family more than the WS.

my mother as today still don't understand how is that I have a better relationship with my father (the WS) that with her (the BS) but until she acceptas tha her actions and vents that she did against me was her own doing and not the fault of my father (for betraying her) I will bE never able to really forgive her, after all the one who told me that I was the root of all the problems in her life was my mother not my father.

So I tell you please don't vent at home with your family, If you really can not forgive your WS please divorce instead of venting your anger at home affeccting innocent parties.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Manticore, 
Considering English isn't your first language, you write beautifully and it is very difficult to write about emotional things in another language. 

Your story is heartbreaking - an affair from a child's perspective because even at 15 you were still a child. 

Your mother's behaviour was disgraceful. She WASN'T mentally ill which is proven by the fact that she could treat your sisters and others normally. Mentally ill people are not able to turn it on and off depending on who is there. Yes, the pain for BS is horrible. Yes there is lots of anger and lashing out. Trouble is in your case a mother lashed out at her innocent son, her firstborn and made your life hell through your formative years, years which should have been carefree and happy and when she should have been protecting you. And she blamed YOU for your father's affair. it's sick.

It was child abuse, plain and simple. Ask any psychologist.

Not only that. She made you go and follow your father like a PI at such a tender age and you did it for years. That's sick too. That's for adults, not 15 year old children. It's simply hideous. i cannot IMAGINE doing that to my son. It would never, ever happen. How dare she. 

Who knows about this Manticore? *I think you must now expose your mother to your family, properly.* I think you should show the story you wrote on this thread to your father and your sisters. Let all of them read it together. Tell them that for years you were her whipping boy and she can still reduce you to tears at the age of 31. So she still hasn't stopped. 

That little boy inside you from long ago is still inside you, fearful that she will lash out at you. You need pretty heavy-duty IC for that. Not only that. She is STILL abusing you if she can make you cry. You need to take this bully on because that's what she is. After all this time she's still at it? She needs to be talking about it with your father, not you. 

Here's what you need to do. Do NOT run away from this. You will get the most benefit from it by standing up to her finally. Visit her. Tell her the family was too upset when you told them you weren't going to see her any more so you decided to pay her a visit. Keep visiting her until she says something that makes you want to cry. Then take a deep breath and look at her straight in the eye and say:

*"Don't even THINK about using me as a punching-bag EVER again. How dare you. You used me, your only son, as your whipping boy for years because of something my father did. Never, ever, ever speak to me again like that again*

Don't say any more than that. Do NOT enter into a discussion about it or you will end up defending yourself yet again. Stare her in the eye and *say nothing *as she lashes out. 

If she doesn't stop just calmly say, *"I'll leave now as I can see one of your temper tantrums is starting again. You should really be yelling at my father since it is he who had the affair."* 

Abused people revert when they meet their abuser. You become that helpless 15 year-old-kid again when you see her. But now you are 31. You are not helpless. Let her have it. You need to do it for YOU. I think great healing would happen for you if you stood up to her. 

How are your relationships with women now? Make sure you always stand up for yourself and if you date someone and she starts acting like a princess, don't give in to her. Walk away from her in fact. *Men with your family history are very prone to be beta and easily bullied in marriage. *I have seen it all too often sadly. 

Thanks for sharing your story Manticore. I hope you don't mind what I said about your mother but the kind of abuse you were subject to was simply appalling. I became very angry as I read it.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I'm thinking your thread title is not exactly accurate. It's not I disagree with the fact that staying for the kids is generaly wrong and potentialy destructive... I just believe the main problem wasn't the fact your Dad tried for 5 years to keep the marriage alive, it were the cause of the hell you had to endure but your mom poor coping skills, false beliefs and emotional transference. 
It's very probable your situation at home was pretty much the same if your dad decide to go the first time. To sum it up, her abusive reaction didn't appear becasue the R attempt.
She felt you sided your dad, felt betrayed by you then saw you as your dad incarnation and just targeted you to vent. She still does, has the same mindset: you are still nowadays the little brat who supported the devil who wronged her.
More than a decade ahead she still don't get kids don't cease to love their parents for their personal failures but for their behavior towards them. Your dad kept showing you love while she showed/shows just the opposite.
Given she still doesn't get this and that she won't challege her own stuff I understand your decision to cut off the toxicity for good.

I might be wrong. 
Do you believe if your dad decided to go initialy your mom would have behaved differently?


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Manticore, your story is extremely tragic in its perception and honesty. I do not blame you a bit for the actions you feel you have to take to defend yourself and live a life without unnecessary pain and anxiety.

I am a FBS who stayed with FWH probably ONLY to spare my grown children, but especially my youngest daughter, from the pain and disgust that discovering that their father was unfaithful with her bestfriend's mother...and the loss of respect they would feel for him.

However, as torn apart physically, mentally and spiritually as the betrayal made me, I did whatever I could to hide and normalize our relationship to my children. I never told them anything, but suspect they knew something was terribly amiss...heck, I lost 25 lbs in one month! LOL...

You did the best you could considering your age at the time and your own feelings of betrayal. And your realization now that your mother must acknowledge that her past demands of you, actions and abuse must be taken responsibility for and apologized for is dead right. But please do not lower yourself to the level of venting at her, demanding or saying cruel words to her to make her comply or to take revenge even though you may be justified. 

You have every right and duty to yourself to calmly state your reasons for removing her from your life. She is in great need of IC to repair her own soul and that must start with acknowledging the abuse she heaped upon her children in her rage at being betrayed. While you can suggest that to her, she will be the only one to make that decision. Hopefully, she will get exhausted by the energy it takes to hate and blame and will do something positive to repair the damage she has done.

A very good book I recommend which helped me greatly is Janis Abraham Spring's book How Can I Forgive You? I think it will really help you as you face the future in a good place.

Good luck to you and stay on the path of healing which you have begun...you are a very intelligent and caring person...


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

allwillbewell said:


> You did the best you could considering your age at the time and your own feelings of betrayal. And your realization now that your mother must acknowledge that her past demands of you, actions and abuse must be taken responsibility for and apologized for is dead right. But please do not lower yourself to the level of venting at her, demanding or saying cruel words to her to make her comply or to take revenge even though you may be justified.


Manticore, just in case what I said was misinterpreted, my advice to stand up to her is very different from venting at her or saying cruel words to her. 

It is simply declaring to her that her abuse of you must stop. It is ongoing because things she says can still make you cry. It can be said very calmly in one sentence and in fact the more quietly you say it, the more powerful it will be. If she starts yelling at you, tell her quietly that you will come back to see her another time when she is not yelling at you and you would appreciate the chance for you both to sit down and quietly talk it through so you can repair your relationship because even now she can make you cry, a grown man at age 31. 

Then write her a short letter. 

_Dear Mom, 
You are my mother. I only have one mother. All these years I have remembered how our relationship was before my father's affair and it makes me intensely sad. 

When I was only 15 and found the proof, before I told you, I confronted him and asked him to stop. For the next few years I acted as a PI and would drive to see if he was where he was supposed to be for you. It is sad that I had to do that at such a young age but all the time I was trying to protect you, my mother. 

You were very upset and angry. Any wife would be. But then you subsequently took your anger out on me. It made me so hurt and sad that I even left my home and the family I loved. I used to wonder why you would get cross at me as if I was the one who caused you the pain when it was my father who caused you all that pain. 

There is nothing more that I would like than for us to be the mother and son we were before my father's affair. I have missed that for years because I remember how good it was. It makes me so sad even now at age 31. 

I would dearly love if you can stop blaming me and getting cross with me for what my father did, and instead remember how I tried to stop it. I am not someone who injured you because I would never do that. 

I would like to take you out for dinner to that restaurant you really like. We can sit and chat as a mother and son who love each other do and enjoy a lovely meal together. How good would that be. 

We are only on this earth for a short time. I know that deep down you love me and I certainly love you. All I want is to have my mother back. 
With all my love, Manticore _

If that's not reasonable I don't know what is. Manticore, if this worked, it could mean the end of your sadness and your distress and you would finally have your mother back where she should have been all these years. You have nothing to lose by doing this. IMO, it's worth a shot.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

********** said:


> Manticore,
> Considering English isn't your first language, you write beautifully and it is very difficult to write about emotional things in another language.
> 
> Your story is heartbreaking - an affair from a child's perspective because even at 15 you were still a child.
> ...


What a brilliant post **********!
I agree with every word of it.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

allwillbewell said:


> But please do not lower yourself to the level of venting at her, demanding or saying cruel words to her to make her comply or to take revenge even though you may be justified.


I don't doubt for a minute that manticore would not treat his mother in a revengeful or cruel way. He comes across to me as being a very loving son, who tried for a long time to support his mother in many ways. He went way above and beyond the call of familial duty.

However, after 15 + years of being continuously abused, finally necessitates self protection and the cutting out of the cancer of projected blame and scapegoating.

That she visited the anger and rage she felt for her husband onto her son is one of the most atrocious and cruel things that a parent (particularly a mother) can pour upon one of their own children.
I will never understand it. 

He has every right to be angry and full of rage; that he doesn't come across as vengeful in any way, is truly amazing to me.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

PS Manticore
I gave you the tough approach in my first post and the soft approach in the second one. They both say the same thing, "Stop abusing me!" Only you know your mother well enough to know which approach might be best if you were to try this. Maybe some combination. 

If it doesn't work you have lost nothing. You can still choose afterwards to avoid her from now on which was your plan. Indeed, you can never say you didn't give it one last try. 

I just feel that when you are much older and she has passed, you might regret not having had this conversation with her, regardless of the outcome. You will be able to say you tried. But mostly it's about you Manticore, standing up for you. That will be liberating I feel. 

Whatever you do you must never again allow anyone to treat you in this way.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Manticore, 

I am 60, was 58 when H had an affair in a what I thought, a good long term marriage.I was a 'normal' person before. Son 20, just about to turn 21. 

My dday will be 3 years this May. My anger & behavior came very close to your mom's in many ways, but stopped before ever turning on my son, but, I felt the anger, rage, bitter, to the point of hating all, & lashing out with bad, bad behavior all the way around. ...acting in many ways as your mom did that was unreal, unbelievable, and very destructive.

I am so sorry that you became her target. Being in her place as a wife & mom, with a 'perfect life' as she had, with a 'perfect h,' & and a 'perfect world,' only to go through the humiliation of an affair that she endured, you just cant even fathom. 

I am not by any means saying what she did was right, not by any means, and believe me, she probably knew at the very moment what she was doing was so hateful, so cruel, but the pain she was suffering was so bad, that any other pain made that pain feel so much better,...and sadly, you where the closes. Hurt people hurt people. And nothing hurts people more than affairs. 

I worries so much what I did to my son these past 3 years, how he will now relate to women, what he thinks of his father who once was his hero of hero. How he saw me break? Did I show his courage, or did I show him weakness? What ugliness did I show him?

Thank you for sharing your post, as many of my h friends tell me I am delusional when I speak of my concerns of what this all has done to my son at a vulnerable age, even thou he is a young man, I cant help but to think its changed him too. 

-sammy


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Manticore... you and I have a lit of similarities in our childhood. My mom wanted to leave when I was 4, parents divorced the month after I graduated HS after a 2 yr affair on my dad's part. Mom never treated the kids the same... We've played second fiddle to her 2nd husband (now divorced... He is in jail) and now 3rd husband. I've pretty much written her off in my life as a result, but my relationship with my dad is fine. My upbringing was toxic... my mom told me more than once that she hated me, and talked down to me when I decided to not go to church anymore when I was 13yo (she is Mormon). I guess the good news is, I learned not to use the kids as an excuse. Although divorce was hard on my child, I know it was best for him, as well as me. 

The trust issues you seem to have will be detrimental to your relationships until you deal with them.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

Thank you all for your responses and time, I have so many comments and answers I would like to post, but unfortunatly, right now my Lap top is at service and I am using a 9 years old PC (before the time I began to buy lap tops) and just reading your answers and changing pages is hard enough without this machine freezing completely. 

hopefully this monday I will be getting my lap top back and I will be able to respond all of you properly.

thanks for your answers and support.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

Thanks for sharing your story, it brought back sad and emotional memories for me 

Off to do something productive before I depress thinking about this subject.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

Just one thing.

Never stay for the kids!!!!

Single biggest mistake of my entire life so far, many wasted years with a passive aggressive control freak.

And if you are a wayward who is thinking of R to make a better life just for your kids, that is an even more selfish act than cheating to begin with, you will not be happy and although you will try, there will be a day when fancy takes your eye and it all goes wrong.


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## Aerith (May 17, 2013)

Manticore,

Sorry to hear that you had such a difficult relationship with your mom. She fully forgot that you were a child not an adult and put her anger and misery on you. 

My observation is women/mothers do it more often then men/fathers.

Regarding staying for kids - again, from what I see around - very few really stay for kids. Most stay for financial reasons and fear.

My very close friend (2 kids) tolerated her xH affairs and even baby outside the marriage till the moment he asked for divorce. Very simple reason - finance and fear. 

Of course, staying in such an extreme situation affects BSs health and mental health - so, from that point it's better to get out ASAP.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Manticore,

I am curious whether the eventual presence of your own children might have any impact on your relationship with your mom... Also, is she local? Creating a healthy distance between the two of you is far easier when you don't have to see her very often. In my case, my mother lives states away... Her relationship with my son is nominal at best, and I don't even remember the last time that I spoke with her. 

Here is a telling question... If you were to get married next month, would you invite her?


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

Manticore,

Your story really touched me.

I respect that you work toward positive personal growth from such a hard upbringing.

I admire the intelligent way you try to help people here on Tam.

Take care!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Manticore, I am very sorry your mother did that to you. More sorry that I can even begin to express. 

My son was a couple of years younger than you were as a child when I discovered his father was cheating. I said nothing to him at the time and only told him a couple of years ago (he's now 42) when I explained that I was finally getting out. His response? That I should have gotten out thirty years before. Because he knew even though I never said a word then, and tried very hard to hide it, that I was unhappy. Parents never realize how perceptive children are. 

There is no excuse for your mother's behavior. I hope very much that you are able to heal.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Sorry you had to go through that. Honestly I've never understood the whole "staying together for the sake of the kids" logic myself.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Thank you for sharing your story
Your father should have left the first time he out your mum through mental hell. Saying that the way your mum behaved towards you was totally unacceptable and she needs to take full responsibility for it.

Staying for the kids is, in my experience an 'excuse' some women give because they still want to keep hold of their husbands. 
I have been through hell and back this last 3 years because of my Hs infidelity. It's been on and off for all that time with the same women, because he can't make the decision that we are done for good. I have been to weak and blinded by him to out a stop to what he has been doing, because of the love we once shared and the commitment we made to each other. Holding my marriage together, for me, was never about staying together for the kids.

I am shocked by your mothers actions towards you. Absolutely, she was tormented and almost driven mad by your fathers actions, but that is no excuse for the abuse she placed upon you. I have 2 sons, 20 and 17. They hate that their father has hurt me, but I talk to them about love, understanding and forgiveness. 

I really feel for you, and hope one day your mother will apologise to you and take responsibility for what she did.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

Ty all for your advices and responses, the reason I have not updated recently is bacause I could not stay loyal to my word, the true is that the universe have sometimes a twisted way to response to certain actions. 

My mother was diagnosed with breast cancer and the only family close to her to help her with all (from the burocracy to obtain her sick leave at work to the travel to other cities for the different prodecesures) was me.

if you think that her disease has made her humble and has given her chance to think about her bahaviour, you are wrong her disease has given her a new kind of power, a power to guild trip and manipulate everybody around her, she made sure to tell all her family and friends how his son abandoned her in this time of need, of course now I even have my sisters cursing me from the other side of the world (both of them are out of the country), her life is out of danger but she still nees alot of prodecesures and maybe even a reconstructive surgery, the dynamics of our relationship have not changed, the difference is that now if I try to talk back to her she inmedatly begin to cry and said how the doctors have tell her that she needs to rest and not to be stressed, so I have to shut up and swallow everything, my grandmother (her mother) is also here and is constantly telling me how should I have to be kinder to my mother and how every fight we have in the past was my fault and I have to change, so of course I just stay quiet, what else could I do in this situation?.


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

manticore said:


> she began to tell my sisters and her family side that i was supporting my father with her affairs, the irony of this is that as she was pestering me about my father affairs, she stopped lashing against my father and became all sweet and gentle towards him.
> 
> She lashed against me just when we were alone, nobody was aware to her actions and accusations.
> 
> ...



I'm just reading this for the first time. Sorry im a bit behind.

Sorry you had to deal with this all your life. Sad to see your mother had such difficulty dealing with your fathers infidelity. 

I had a traumatic childhood. Parents separated, our house was burned down twice. I had been taught to keep my mouth shut. So I started to run when I was about 11 yrs old. By he time I was 15, I was running 20 miles a day and completed a 26.2 mile marathon. It's an internalization of pain and the endorphins are addicting. I redirected that energy into fighting and became pretty accomplished in that arena. Endorphins and anger can be very satisfying. Dare I say the only times in my life I've been completely happy and satisfied are when I've been training and working through injuries. 

It's funny when you look back at our coping mechanisms and how they can work to our advantage or our disadvantage.

Anyway...good luck to you.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

I'm sorry your mother is Ill but she is still controlling you.
Walk away.
Do a 180 on her.
Is there a reason you won't stand up to her and your sisters?
It's time to end this once and for all
Good luck
X


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## rustytheboyrobot (Nov 20, 2013)

OMFG I am so glad I left when I did...


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