# When do you give up?



## SkyeBlue (Nov 11, 2013)

My WS cheated on me 3 years ago. It was a choice he made, thinking I would never find out. Somehow it was okay as long as I didn't know about it. Of course, once I did find out, then it was a "mistake" and he wanted to stay married to me. Ended the affair no contact, or so he says. Do I trust him? Of course not. For all I know, he still sees her. 

My question is for anyone who has attempted reconciliation, when do you give up trying? He would like to rug sweep everything and pretend it never happened. Life goes on like normal. No harm, no foul. For me, it changed the way I see him, the way I think about him, the way I see marriage, the way I no longer trust a thing I hear, the way I feel worthless and duped by him, the way I do not want any part of showing this man what he used to have - unconditional, 100% love. He lost all of that the moment he decided she was worth having on the side, his little secret. 

It has been 3 years and my feelings for him are exactly the same as the day I found out about his affair. Is the best thing to divorce and move on? If I feel this way still, will it ever change? I can't help how I feel. I go along in limbo, but feel like my marriage is dead. He acts as if nothing at all is wrong. We're still married, so all is good in his world. When do I know it's really over? We do have children, which is why I am still married. Guilt over being the one to pull the plug.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

He has not been remorseful. Can he change this?

Do you have a complete confession? For example, have you read their email and text correspondence? You may need them for closure.

Has he confessed to your family and apologized? You may or may not wish to have others share the burden.

Has your sex life taken a hit?

Does he fear you will cheat?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## SkyeBlue (Nov 11, 2013)

Remorseful? He wants me to forget it ever happened and be done with it. He wants no one to know about it and they do not. He does not understand why I cannot think of him as I once did. He would like nothing better than for me to forget it and I simply can't. To me, it showed his true character and his true feelings for me. I am nothing to him except an extra paycheck and mother to his children. At least that's how it feels. I do think he has some type of narcissistic disorder. Of course our sex life took a hit. Does he think I will cheat? I don't know. I am honorable though so I will divorce before I'd date again. That's just me. I have values.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

You're not going to be able to heal properly as long as he's looking to rugsweep the affair; it needs to be fully brought out into the open and dealt w/ properly -- and by the both of you -- before you'll feel any differently about your marriage than you do now... at least in terms of feeling any better. Anything less than this isn't a true reconciliation, and if he wants the both of you to stay in your marriage and to keep your family whole, then he owes it to you to do things properly. And the both of you owe it to your children to go all in and make a genuine effort at reconciliation.

Now please, don't misunderstand me... If you feel that you simply cannot reconcile in the face of his adultery (and especially considering his unwillingness to do anything but rugsweep), then -- IMO -- you're absolutely entitled to divorce, and you shouldn't feel at all guilty for that. Trust is the foundation upon which each and every relationship (especially marriage) is built, and trust is far easier to earn than it is to mend... _especially when the WS is doing nothing substantive to mend it._

Having made the choice to stay in your marriage, however, you should fully commit to a proper reconciliation. For you this will likely mean giving your (hopefully formerly) wayward husband the proverbial "kick in the nuts" that he would appear to need in order to get things moving, at least initially. If you fail to do this, you'll simply wind up full of bile and resentment (it sounds like you're already halfway there), and that will only backfire for everyone, as "staying for the kids" will only make them miserable. They'd do better living w/ even a single emotionally stable parent than w/ two emotionally spent parents that absolutely hate each other.

And now for some basic questions...

How old are the two of you and how long have you been married?

What does your husband do for work?

How many kids and how old are they? Do you work outside of the home? Are you financially dependent upon him?

Who was the other woman? Ex? Co-worker? How long did the affair last? Why do you suspect that they may still be in contact?

Did the two of you ever attend marriage counseling? Any individual counseling for either of you?

Pick up this book and read it WITH HIM...

How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful: Linda J. MacDonald: 9781450553322: Amazon.com: Books

As noted in the link above, it is available from Amazon in both paperback and Kindle format. It is also available for free from the author's website in PDF format...

http://www.lindajmacdonald.com/how_to_help_11-06-10_final_pdf-.pdf


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

He is going to have to start to work on repairing the marriage and healing you really before R can even start. You are still kind of stuck at day one so you’ve had no movement forward. You now have 3 years of resentment built on top which will make his job and yours that much harder. 

You aren’t even certain if he is still in contact with her or someone else or truly has broken off contact. Since he hasn’t faced any real consequences and rug swept it this long the two of you have the “deep dark secret” and he is banking that you will never spill it. 

You aren’t going to just forget it and you know that as you have proven that to yourself. He either needs to start healing you or you are going to end up divorcing. When to give up only you can answer the question but you have waited 3 years for him to at least start and he hasn’t done it yet. Have you done any investigative work like emails or browser history, phone records?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Just found this from a thread that you opened in November of last year...



SkyeBlue said:


> My WS had an affair. I know they exchanged emails and pictures. Their affair is over now. It was just a game for them and I obviously meant nothing. I am divorcing my WS. My WS got a new computer, but has our old one stored still. My question is, is there a way to recover the emails I know they sent back and forth? I want to know what they said to each other and I want to see the pictures. I feel like I need to know what went on between them and also I like knowing I can possibly use them against them to show their friends and co-workers who they really are. In my mind, exposing them is my biggest revenge. How expensive would it be to have a place recover them for me? Has anyone else done this?


What changed your mind w/ respect to divorce?

And were you ever able to recover any of his e-mails?


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Skye,

I'm guessing you are still pretty young, and you didn't mention children. If that's the case, and with the 3 years of no-change in your feelings, I have to admit it sounds pretty bad right now. Do the two of you even have the energy or will to work on the marriage?

Seems like a good talk with you husband is the first order of business. You've been going this alone, and gone nowhere. He's got to take an active role, he should have known that 3 years ago.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Did you have him write a timeline of the affair for you?

Tell him that you are waiting until the kids are older so that you can D, unless he helps you work thru this.

You can't get thru this by rug sweeping, you need to go thru it.

Is he transparent with cell and computers? Did he always use protection, and did he have tests for stds?

Will he go to counseling with you? Has he read any books on helping you with the pain and the heartache?

Or is he remorseful because he got caught and not because he hurt you?

Good luck if he does not change or show you how he cares for you and you only. 

I hope he has not cheated again or gone underground with the A.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Forest said:


> Skye,
> 
> I'm guessing you are still pretty young, and you didn't mention children. If that's the case, and with the 3 years of no-change in your feelings, I have to admit it sounds pretty bad right now. Do the two of you even have the energy or will to work on the marriage?
> 
> Seems like a good talk with you husband is the first order of business. You've been going this alone, and gone nowhere. He's got to take an active role, he should have known that 3 years ago.


She mentioned kids, she just didn't say how many or how old they are...



SkyeBlue said:


> We do have children, which is why I am still married.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

There is no way you are going to recover going about things this way. What (if any) repurcussions has he experienced? Was this an EA with the pics and emails referenced in the other thread, or was it a PA? It also sounds like perhaps they worked together. Is that the case? Do they still?


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

I'd download, print then fill out the divorce form. Hand them to him to sign. Tell him your life has changed since you found out about him cheating on you.

Tell him that life for him has been the same as it ever was. That's about to change then tell him to sign it.

If he does anything other then beg, grovel and plead for you to reconsider, then you have your answer.

He's not sorry, never was and never will be.


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## SkyeBlue (Nov 11, 2013)

We have two kids, both in high school. We have been married for 19 years. My kids know what their father did and have begged me to stay. They don't want to be those kids who are shuffled between parents and I know they will be off to college soon, one of them in just one year. I've stayed for them. I do work outside the home. I've told no other family members about his affair and I only told my children because at the time I was 99.9% sure I would be divorcing him. They needed to know why. They hate what he did and lost respect for him, but don't want their family torn apart because of it. They literally begged me to stay. 

WS's affair was with a married family friend. Someone I knew and thought I could trust. She too was married after all. I don't think her husband has a clue. WS admits their sex (PA) was unprotected and yes, I did go to my doctor and get tested after I found out. She came on to him at a lake trip and he let it happen. Their affair lasted 11 months. She ended it, but made sure I knew. If she hadn't told me, he would have kept it secret forever. She said she thought I should know and she was sorry. She told me she had a sexual addiction problem and I think wanted sympathy from me. She said she was seeking help for her problems. I told her if I ever saw her again I would kill her. I haven't seen her since. She thought she was doing me a favor by telling me. WS said he told me everything, but I doubt it. I don't even know if he still sees her. My doubt is because I do not believe a word he says or trust him or her. I see no evidence that he is in contact with her anymore, but I was blindsided before and think they are capable of doing it again. They've proven what they're capable of. I do know now that affairs are easy to hide. He told me they exchanged naked pictures (rather perverted things from what he said), and I wanted to recover them initially and use them to expose them both for what they truly are, but did not follow though with that. Turns out taking my computer in to have old deleted emails extracted would be quite expensive. He admits to going to hotels with her. He would pay cash he said. No credit card evidence. He also went to her home when her husband was not at home. He even told me they had a place in the woods where he'd take her. I wanted to tell her husband, but never did. I don't know if she came clean to him or not. WS said her husband never contacted him about the affair so I doubt he knows. WS said he was not afraid of the other man. I said maybe he should be. 

When I asked him why he would ruin his marriage to be with her, his answer is that she came on to him and he could not say no. He thought it would be okay since it was only for sex and she promised that her husband and I would never find out. That's all it took for him. Opportunity to live a double life and enjoy that excitement for awhile. I think a lot of affairs are fun for people because of the secretive nature of them. Then it gets old and affairs end, but the damage the affair created lingers on for years and the people involved in the affair never see any of that coming. They only love themselves. 

WS thinks it was nothing and I should overlook his lapse of judgement. To me, it changed everything and I no longer even think of him as my husband. I thought with time I might get some of my feelings for him back, but all I feel is duped and he lives in his own narcissistic world. So back to my original question - when do you give up? Stay another few years til the kids are off to college? It's what they want from me. I don't know that an attempt at reconciliation is worth my time given what I'm married to.


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

SkyeBlue said:


> We have two kids, both in high school. We have been married for 19 years. My kids know what their father did and have begged me to stay. They don't want to be those kids who are shuffled between parents and I know they will be off to college soon, one of them in just one year. I've stayed for them. I do work outside the home. I've told no other family members about his affair and I only told my children because at the time I was 99.9% sure I would be divorcing him. They needed to know why. They hate what he did and lost respect for him, but don't want their family torn apart because of it. They literally begged me to stay.
> 
> .



First, somebody needs to be an adult here, and it's not the kids 

There's no point in catastrophizing things. If they're in High School and aren't Doogie Howser or something, then they're old enough to pick where they want to stay and decide how often they will visit the other parent... at least now they are, and so they would have been soon.

Those sort of dramatics bug me

Moreover, what kind of lesson is being taught where they get to put their demands about "convenience" ahead of somebody else's mental health. That would have been a worthy discussion. Not that I expect kids at that age to be particularly empathetic, but it was a teaching moment that sounds like it slipped by.

So it has been 3 years, and you're still in your own personal limbo, eh?

"It takes 20 years to build a reputation, and about 5 minutes to completely destroy it. If you think about that, you will do things differently." - Warren Buffet

Without knowing your husband, all I can say is that at the very least, he didn't consider that famous quote by Warren Buffet. and that it would have been his fault and nobody else's if you had divorced him, and I don't understand why you let your kids blameshift that onto you like you were the bad guy here. That's BS. You upheld your end of the marriage contract. Dufus blew up the marriage, and it's still in pieces apparently. Not surprised.

Have you considered professional counseling and maybe assertiveness training?

.


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

Your kids have begged you to stay, he has asked you to stay, when does what you want factor into all of this? It seems as though you're doing what's necessary to make all those around you happy but are neglecting your happiness.

If he's still this way three years later he isn't worth it. Nothing will change because he hasn't been made suffer any consequences for his actions.

If I was in your shoes I would divorce him. He isn't going to change, and your kids are old enough to understand and will be just fine in the future. Would you tell your kids to stay with an un-remorseful, cheating spouse if they came to you asking for advice?

It's hard, believe me I know. You want more than anything to go back to what you thought you had. You believe in your heart that if given another chance they'll change. Some do, most don't I believe.

You need to start worrying about you now. You won't believe how good it feels to drop all of that anxiety and stress from your life.

Good luck.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

If you take the hard disk out and connect it to another computer, you should be able to read it.

Tell your husband that he has to do more to help you.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

My parents stayed for me... I am the youngest of 4. Their divorce was finalized the month after I graduated HS.... i went away to college, and they sold the family home and moved to different states. The part that really sucked it that, is that I didn't get to go "home" for Christmas or Summer -ever. I wouldn't have cared if it was mom's house or dad's house... as long as they were there, in the city I knew... I think I'd have been okay. 

After I saw them apart, I was angry they stayed "for me" because they are so much better apart. To this day I carry a small amount of resentment for each of them for giving me a skewed perception of one should accept in a relationship. 

I left my exH when my son was 5... and as much as I hate things like Christmas w/o him, I take comfort in knowing I still have a chance to show him an example of a healthy relationship.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Cheaters are manipulators - so your husband manipulated the kids to put pressure on you to stay so the status quo is fine. Great - I would say he is even worse than I thought. My ex used our kids as pawns to manipulate to put pressure on me to try to reconcile. It pissed me off even more because it showed me more of who she was rather than choosing to be honest she chose manipulation. More of the same. Don't expect honesty from this bloke, honey. Move on!


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

SkyeBlue:

I've read your three postings and I see a person who feels that she was "had". In addition to his betrayal, I think a big part of the reason you can't move forward is because you let him get away with this affair Scott Free. There were no consequence to him, or her for that matter, for their behavior. In fact you rewarded him with allowing to keep his old life .... *and it's eating at you*. I see this with the vast majority of 'reconciling' BS's posting here; and it kills them, even if they won't admit it

Let's look at what happened. He had unprotected sex with your married friend and both her and your husband avoided the stigma of being exposed. *You let them get away scott free and it's eating at you*. Every one thinks he is a great husband and he is not. Her husband knows nothing of the affair or her (bullshi1t) sexual addiction excuse. He didn't have the opportunity to get tested because he doesn't know. *This was your biggest mistake you made, you didn't expose, you didn't stigmatize them and they paid nothing.*

Do I think that you should leave? Yes. I am a believer that a BS can't recover from their spouse's physical affair with their dignity intact. I think that divorce is the direction you need to go in. On top of that, everyone you know, and even those you don't know, should know what went on between the two of them. 

You let them get away with this because you are a nice 'guy'. But nice 'guys' not only finish last, they get f*cked. I think you need to be less of a nice 'guy'.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Read the book "After the Affair" by Janis Spring. You'll learn a lot, and possibly the most important thing is that you cannot heal all by yourself. You cannot make the trauma of the betrayal go away without him doing a lot of work. Even then it may not be possible.

I agree to not let your kids decide for you if you should stay or go. They'll do fine if you divorce. Right now they see you in bad mental shape because of all this, and it is not good for them to learn this lesson.

Please expose to the OW's husband. For all I know it could be me! I'm in the same area as you and suspect my wife but don't have hard proof. It would be a Godsend to get proof and end the limbo. This other husband may be in the same boat, and would find resolution if you told him.


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## dignityhonorpride (Jan 2, 2014)

My parents stayed together "for the kids," too. We didn't ask them to stay together, of course.

They divorced a couple of years ago and honestly I wish they would have done it the first time I heard it threatened, when I was <10 years old. They were horribly toxic together and gave me a completely messed up perception of relationships, love, affection, etc. My dad is much healthier, both mentally and physically, now, and I spend a lot of time with him.

Personally I have to wonder whether your WH (wayward husband) is feeding these ideas (of shuffling back and forth, etc) to your kids in order to steer you away from divorce. 

They will be fine. They will recover. They can pick who they live with. And even if they're mad at you and choose not to live with you at first -- this was the case with one of my siblings and my dad (dad filed for D) -- they will quickly see the error of their ways and move in with you (again, my {at the time} H.S.-age sibling - stubborn as all get-out -- did this).


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Skye,

After my 20-year marriage ended (no infidelity) my kids told me after the fact that *they both wish we had divorced earlier.* The lack of love and intimacy between me and my ex was apparent to them, and it was not healthy for them at all. It was a bad model of a marriage for them.

They are much happier now that we are apart.

Your kids are way older than kids who have to get "shuffled back and forth" between parents' houses on a court-ordered schedule. Presumably, they have driver's licenses and can drive back and forth to see either parent whenever they want.

My kids are 19 and 17 and pop back and forth whenever they want. They know they are welcome at either house at any time, and both houses feel like home now.

I agree with TimeHeals; somebody has got to be the adult here. That person needs to be you. If you are staying for the kids at their ages, I think it is a big mistake.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

OP,

I cannot believe you have not at least told the OW's BH. 

HE HAS A RIGHT TO KNOW !!!!

3 years and he is still in the dark. How would you like it if YOU were still in the dark ??

You'll get ZERO sympathy from me about your situation until he is told. In my eyes, this makes YOU almost as bad as the two POS cheaters at this point. You have had THREE YEARS to do right by the POSOW H and have not !

He is just like you, an innocent victim that did nothing wrong. But unlike you, he was not told ! So you have the ability to make choices going forward with full truth, and he does not.

You need to make this right and tell him, then you need to D your WH who has had you rug sweep this for 3 years.


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## ire8179 (Apr 19, 2014)

SkyeBlue said:


> When I asked him why he would ruin his marriage to be with her, his answer is that she came on to him and he could not say no. He thought it would be okay since it was only for sex and she promised that her husband and I would never find out. That's all it took for him.


That's really scary, so all it took for him to cheat was a guarantee that you'd never know :scratchhead:

And btw, "only sex" is the act of minimalizing your pain. He probably thinks that you're overreacting because it's "just sex" that's why he just wants to move on and act as if nothing has happened, just a tiny mischief. Clearly he doesn't have any grasp of the concept of commitment, honor and respect. 

He's a cake eater and very unremorseful. What will happen when an opportunity comes to his lap in the future ? Yeah, i think he'll do it again cause he doesn't see there's anything wrong in it. He thinks what you don't know won't hurt you


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

barbados said:


> You'll get ZERO sympathy from me about your situation until he is told. In my eyes, this makes YOU almost as bad as the two POS cheaters at this point. You have had THREE YEARS to do right by the POSOW H and have not !


That makes her as bad as the cheaters? That might be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Your H, must be from another planet----he had an A, and thot it was OK---cuz it was just sex----that is as lame as it gets

As for you and how long you wanna hang in there---its up to how much misery, you want in your life---you have given it 3 years, you have a H, who is not accountable, and and wants this put behind him----that should not ever be allowed to happen-----he went inside of another woman, he went happily, and willingly, and did not give one bit of a rats you know what, about you and the kids

It is time for you to leave---it is time for you to get your dignity, and self respect back, it is time for you to resume a carefree life, which you had prior to your H's cheating, it is time for you to once again have peace of mind----none of this will/can happen until you leave your cheating, unrepenting H.

Your kids are old enuff, and will be fine---the one kid going to college will probably be off to college, before a D, would even become final, and the other kid needs to suck it up, and let you have a life again---as you have sucked it up for the last 3 yrs for him/her

Give yourself the greatest gift you can-----FREEDOM, and a chance to look at the sun each and every day---and know it will not be a day filled with misery---------

Get your D, fly away and be free


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

barbados said:


> OP,
> 
> I cannot believe you have not at least told the OW's BH.
> 
> ...


Well, that was uncalled for, IMHO.

Look, she didn't screw his wife. It's that simple. Her husband did. It's all on him.

Now, if you had pointed out that this affair is the "deep dark family secret" that everybody is keeping locked up in the basement in order to "keep up appearances" (in short, cleaning up the cheater's mess by spackling over his offense) that would be more constructive IMO Or even pointing out that it's probably not healthy because it seems like she isn't willng to stand up for her own values, and it isn't her mess (or the kids' mess) to clean up.

One person in this marriage owns this: her husband. And he isn't interested in owning up to it apparently, and everybody is busy spackling over his bad behavior like it's their own personal shame instead of standing up for what is right, and it's not right to treat people this way, IMHO.

That's my best guess. It probably runs deeper, and hence... maybe talkng to a professional would be good here.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Sorry you are here. I agree with Thor, I would expose this and not let your husband know.

Rug sweeping rarely works and this is what your husband has done and you are paying the price.

Expose it and see if thing improve.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

SkyeBlue said:


> Remorseful? * He wants me to forget it ever happened and be done with it. He wants no one to know about it and they do not. He does not understand why I cannot think of him as I once did. He would like nothing better than for me to forget it and I simply can't. To me, it showed his true character and his true feelings for me. I am nothing to him except an extra paycheck and mother to his children. At least that's how it feels. * I do think he has some type of narcissistic disorder. Of course our sex life took a hit. Does he think I will cheat? I don't know. I am honorable though so I will divorce before I'd date again. That's just me. I have values.


Your summary is accurate for most cheaters.

They want their reputation intact and for you to let them sweep it all under the rug.

Don't do it, it will harm you in the end. Too bad for his reputation.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You have to lay out a list of what your husband needs to do in order to preserve his marriage to you. You file for divorce while he is free to choose to do these things or choose not to do these things. If he is choosing not to do them, then he himself is choosing divorce. Be clear with your kids that your husband has every bit of power and opportunity to keep the marriage together, and if they want to beg anyone to keep the marraige together, to speak to him.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

bigtone128 said:


> *Cheaters are manipulators - so your husband manipulated the kids to put pressure on you to stay so the status quo is fine.* Great - I would say he is even worse than I thought. My ex used our kids as pawns to manipulate to put pressure on me to try to reconcile. It pissed me off even more because it showed me more of who she was rather than choosing to be honest she chose manipulation. More of the same. Don't expect honesty from this bloke, honey. Move on!


This was a big factor in finally outing my ex-wife to our kids when they were 18 and 21.

She was trying to convince then that I was an angry hothead for no reason whatsoever when she was such a nurturing wife and mother.

And she was getting traction with that tactic!


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

michzz said:


> This was a big factor in finally outing my ex-wife to our kids when they were 18 and 21.
> 
> *She was trying to convince then that I was an angry hothead for no reason whatsoever when she was such a nurturing wife and mother.*
> 
> And she was getting traction with that tactic!



....Holy S#it!! That is SO on point in my experience that it's scary!! I walk around muttering to myself, _"Yeah ...you're the frikkin' angel and I'm the [email protected] of an ogre"._


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

I can see why you are still in limbo. Beyond the issue of your husband's rug sweeping; you failed to give him all of the deserved consequences; meaning you facilitated the rug sweeping, and failed to adequately test his remorse. That's obviously another source of your resentment. But late consequences are better than none.

You should have told the OW's wife. It's not too late. Do it. 

You should have exposed him to your family and his family. You can still do that.

You should have insisted on him openly and honestly discussing the A with you at any time. Have that discussion with him.

You should have insisted in a level of transparency from him that minimizes your concern about no contact. Even if you can't be sure he hasn't contacted her again, you at least ought to have monitored him enough to make it difficult. Exposing her to her husband would have made it even tougher with another pair of eyes on her.

Did he send her a no contact letter? He should have. He can do one now if not.

Too expensive to get the deleted e-mails? Not really. If they are still on the hard drive, I can tell you how to get to them for about a $100 investment in hardware/software. All you need is a hard drive enclosure (20 bucks and you may not need it if the computer is still working) and RecoverMyEmail software. PM me if you want the detailed information.

The bottom line is that you have to resent the fact that he hasn't accepted the consequences he deserves, in large part because you didn't offer them out.

All BS's make mistakes after DDay. Most of those can be corrected.

If you do all that, and he willingly accepts it; that will help you some. Enough? I hope so.

If he doesn't accept them, that should make your decision easy.

Keep posting.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

michzz said:


> This was a big factor in finally outing my ex-wife to our kids when they were 18 and 21.
> 
> She was trying to convince then that I was an angry hothead for no reason whatsoever when she was such a nurturing wife and mother.
> 
> And she was getting traction with that tactic!





Hurtin_Still said:


> ....Holy S#it!! That is SO on point in my experience that it's scary!! I walk around muttering to myself, _"Yeah ...you're the frikkin' angel and I'm the [email protected] of an ogre"._


The bizarre level of selfishness all hinges on you keeping your mouth shut. and when you do not? So frikkin surprised!


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

I will never understand the logic that a BS uses to not expose... The only exception IMO are when there are plans for divorce, and possible effects on getting fired when they are anticipating alimony. 

Other than that... It seems to be one of the best ways to kill it.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Pepper123 said:


> I will never understand the logic that a BS uses to not expose... The only exception IMO are when there are plans for divorce, and possible effects on getting fired when they are anticipating alimony.
> 
> Other than that... It seems to be one of the best ways to kill it.


There is a time period where a BS can be utterly shellshocked and unable to react properly. Plus, any excuse to try to shield children no matter how misguided, has to get processed.

But ultimately, it is the only choice, to expose.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

My 2 cents as someone who spent 2 years in a false R. If your gut doesn't feel right, trust it. I knew something was off, but I couldn't put my finger on it. My WW told me she didn't have a PA, and guess what. She didn't, not with those guys that I had evidence of cybersex. She had them with 2 other guys. So, she didn't lie to me. She just didn't admit to what I didn't know. :scratchhead:

I exposed to a few folks, but not nearly enough. When I found out about the additional affairs it was too late to save our marriage. Our seperation and subsequent announcment of divorce took lots of friends and family by surprise (the ones who were not exposed to the earlier cybersex incident). 

So, I third (or fifth or tenth) the vote to expose. You can do it discreetly to your friends and family. You can tell them about your H's affair. Who it was with, and that you don't want details shared with your kids. But you want them to know as you will be making some drastic changes in your relationship and need there support.

Some of those changes, NC with the affair partner. Identifying who knew about the affair and cutting them out of your lives too. If they knew, you should have known. Your H will not be doing any guys nights out or trips to the lake house (or anywhere else) without you. If he goes on a business trip, he is going to pay to take you along and you can shop while he works and take you to dinner and play tourist with you when he is not. 

He needs to be willing to swallow his pride and bear this shame not because you are trying to punish him, but because if he isn't, then he is making you carry his shame for him. If he is remorseful, he shouldn't ask you to, and you can't do that, trust me. I'm a strong person and I couldn't. I was close to a nervous breakdown, the only reason I didn't implode was finally finding a thin thread of evidence that supported what I was feeling. When I pulled that thread my world fell apart, but at least what I saw matched what I felt.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

OP- to your primary question when do you know when to give up?

I guess it is different for everyone.

For me- when my XWW looked me right in the face lied- then when she was presented with evidence that she couldn't wiggle out of, she went ballistic. Zero remorse, she was going to replace me with a better man. From that moment forward- the divorce was on.

If I had to make that decision again- I would make it the same way. not that there was much of a decision to be made. I do not see how R can happen when the wayward has no remorse. 

We have 2 children who were affected by the divorce. However, you can still be a great parent and be divorced. The kids have adjusted and are doing very well.

All the best
WD


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

michzz said:


> There is a time period where a BS can be utterly shellshocked and unable to react properly. Plus, any excuse to try to shield children no matter how misguided, has to get processed.
> 
> But ultimately, it is the only choice, to expose.


I get that... but we are talking about 3 years here. I understand the desire to shield children. To an extent, I did the same thing with my ex's abuse... I will never tell my son. But I left, and it isn't happening anymore, so I didn't see a good reason to.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Pepper123 said:


> I get that... but we are talking about 3 years here. I understand the desire to shield children. To an extent, I did the same thing with my ex's abuse... I will never tell my son. But I left, and it isn't happening anymore, so I didn't see a good reason to.


3 years is just a number when you're stuck, you're stuck--until you're not.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

For me, the answer to the original question (”When do you give up?") was this: When I could comfortably look in the mirror and say to myself that I'd done everything within my power find a way to forgive and to save my marriage -- if not for me, then for my son.

At the risk of coming across harsh, you have done NONE of those things, as detailed in every post above. 

Expose, do not allow rugsweeping. 
Teach your children that standing up for oneself, even in the face of unpopular opinion, is of paramount importance. 
Not accepting his dirty secret as the family secret (disgusting). Getting yourself to IC on why you tolerate it, and you both to MC on why it happened. 
3 years is only the passage of time, not a badge of honor for "trying"...it is not 3 years of 2-way effort -- to show remorse and re-earn some trust by him, nor to find a way to understand and to forgive by you (nit that I would with a rugsweeper attitude he has shown...)

You've simply done nothing to try to reconcile but stay in the house with him, from what you have shared. that is not working toward R, that is letting inertia keep you married. You say you don't know if he is even still seeing her?... well why WOULDN'T he be? There have been no consequences to cheating... for WH nor to the OW. And her poor hub doesn't even know, because you have maintained the family secret for him.

So my plain advice is either DO something about how used and abused you feel, to make a change, and then once you realize he isn't going to help you work through this, nor admit to any of his own issues then D... or just cut to the chase and D. You sound way past done anyway. Maybe you tried more than we've heard, but it doesn't sound like it.

Going back to your original question... My own WW did *everything* to try and make it back to my trust, to demonstrate her remorse and regret and desire to put us back together stronger -- IC, MC, dates, talks, letters, books... and after 9-10 months, during MC, the lightning bolt hit me that I just couldn't do it, couldn't forgive and see her the way I need to see the person I'd be committed to. So I left. 

That was MY decision, after HER decisions. I can look in the mirror and know I tried and could not find that spot again.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

OP, are you coming back to read all this good advice?!?!

I hope so... :scratchhead:


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

SkyeBlue said:


> When I asked him why he would ruin his marriage to be with her, his answer is that she came on to him and he could not say no. He thought it would be okay since it was only for sex and she promised that her husband and I would never find out.
> 
> WS thinks it was nothing and I should overlook his lapse of judgement.


Wow, what a d1ck...

But what does your therapist and/or marriage counselor say about this stuff ?

Unless I missed it I don't think you ever went to one.. This is why you are still both struggling with this.. The both of you have yet to learn how to help each other heal..

The issue now is, you both have to deal with an affair and 3 years worth of BS on top of it..

Seek professional help.. It is obvious you both do not have the tools to fix this on your own, and it is completely understandable.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

badmemory said:


> I can see why you are still in limbo. Beyond the issue of your husband's rug sweeping; you failed to give him all of the deserved consequences; meaning you facilitated the rug sweeping, and failed to adequately test his remorse. That's obviously another source of your resentment. But late consequences are better than none.
> 
> You should have told the OW's wife. It's not too late. Do it.
> 
> ...


*badmemory*'s advice is excellent. The only part where I might deviate a little is in terms of exposing to your family and his; this depends on the individuals involved. If you decide to try to work toward reconciliation, and eventually you repair your marriage and feel closer to one another, the feelings that family members - especially your own family - have toward him may forever be tinged with anger. In other words you may heal in regards to this, they may not.

Also, it's virtually impossible to heal without the help of a skilled MC, one who has experience working with couples who are dealing with infidelity. I recommend the National Registry of Marriage Friendly Therapists, though you have to check on each therapist's level of experience in working with infidelity:

Marriage Friendly Therapists


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

SkyeBlue said:


> We have two kids, both in high school. We have been married for 19 years. My kids know what their father did and have begged me to stay. They don't want to be those kids who are shuffled between parents and I know they will be off to college soon, one of them in just one year. I've stayed for them. I do work outside the home. I've told no other family members about his affair and I only told my children because at the time I was 99.9% sure I would be divorcing him. They needed to know why. They hate what he did and lost respect for him, but don't want their family torn apart because of it. They literally begged me to stay.


Fair enough, I suppose. Until, that is, you consider this...



happy as a clam said:


> Skye,
> 
> After my 20-year marriage ended (no infidelity) my kids told me after the fact that *they both wish we had divorced earlier.* The lack of love and intimacy between me and my ex was apparent to them, and it was not healthy for them at all. It was a bad model of a marriage for them.
> 
> ...


Back to it...



SkyeBlue said:


> WS's affair was with a married family friend. Someone I knew and thought I could trust. She too was married after all. I don't think her husband has a clue. WS admits their sex (PA) was unprotected and yes, I did go to my doctor and get tested after I found out. She came on to him at a lake trip and he let it happen. Their affair lasted 11 months. *She ended it, but made sure I knew. If she hadn't told me, he would have kept it secret forever.* She said she thought I should know and she was sorry. She told me she had a sexual addiction problem and I think wanted sympathy from me. She said she was seeking help for her problems. I told her if I ever saw her again I would kill her. I haven't seen her since. She thought she was doing me a favor by telling me. WS said he told me everything, but I doubt it. I don't even know if he still sees her. My doubt is because I do not believe a word he says or trust him or her. I see no evidence that he is in contact with her anymore, but I was blindsided before and think they are capable of doing it again. They've proven what they're capable of. I do know now that affairs are easy to hide. He told me they exchanged naked pictures (rather perverted things from what he said), and I wanted to recover them initially and use them to expose them both for what they truly are, but did not follow though with that. Turns out taking my computer in to have old deleted emails extracted would be quite expensive. He admits to going to hotels with her. He would pay cash he said. No credit card evidence. He also went to her home when her husband was not at home. He even told me they had a place in the woods where he'd take her. I wanted to tell her husband, but never did. I don't know if she came clean to him or not. WS said her husband never contacted him about the affair so I doubt he knows. WS said he was not afraid of the other man. I said maybe he should be.
> 
> When I asked him why he would ruin his marriage to be with her, his answer is that she came on to him and he could not say no. He thought it would be okay since it was only for sex and she promised that her husband and I would never find out. That's all it took for him. Opportunity to live a double life and enjoy that excitement for awhile. I think a lot of affairs are fun for people because of the secretive nature of them. Then it gets old and affairs end, but the damage the affair created lingers on for years and the people involved in the affair never see any of that coming. They only love themselves.
> 
> WS thinks it was nothing and I should overlook his lapse of judgement. To me, it changed everything and I no longer even think of him as my husband. I thought with time I might get some of my feelings for him back, but all I feel is duped and he lives in his own narcissistic world.


An 11-month affair (and w/ a married "friend of the family", no less) is no simple "lapse of judgement", especially considering the lengths that he went to in order to conceal it from you. And, to be perfectly honest, I'm often inclined to term any affair that involves more than a single sexual encounter as _*serial* adultery_; I'd apply that thinking here.



SkyeBlue said:


> So back to my original question - when do you give up? Stay another few years til the kids are off to college? It's what they want from me. I don't know that an attempt at reconciliation is worth my time given what I'm married to.


If your husband isn't willing to do all that is rightfully expected and required of him in order to help you to heal from his betrayal, then -- IMO -- you should pull the plug NOW. Hell, that's what I'd advise anyway, as he's been rugsweeping (at the expense of your sanity) for the past 3 years. 

Expose to everyone on your way out, _especially_ OWH. After all, she did you a "favor" in exposing the affair to you... shouldn't you be considerate enough to return the favor? 

And regarding your kids... again, see HaaC's post (quoted above) for insight into how it shouldn't be too terribly difficult for your children to adjust.


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## SosoBroken (Jul 15, 2014)

SkyeBlue said:


> My WS cheated on me 3 years ago. It was a choice he made, thinking I would never find out. Somehow it was okay as long as I didn't know about it. Of course, once I did find out, then it was a "mistake" and he wanted to stay married to me. Ended the affair no contact, or so he says. Do I trust him? Of course not. For all I know, he still sees her.
> 
> My question is for anyone who has attempted reconciliation, when do you give up trying? He would like to rug sweep everything and pretend it never happened. Life goes on like normal. No harm, no foul. For me, it changed the way I see him, the way I think about him, the way I see marriage, the way I no longer trust a thing I hear, the way I feel worthless and duped by him, the way I do not want any part of showing this man what he used to have - unconditional, 100% love. He lost all of that the moment he decided she was worth having on the side, his little secret.
> 
> It has been 3 years and my feelings for him are exactly the same as the day I found out about his affair. Is the best thing to divorce and move on? If I feel this way still, will it ever change? I can't help how I feel. I go along in limbo, but feel like my marriage is dead. He acts as if nothing at all is wrong. We're still married, so all is good in his world. When do I know it's really over? We do have children, which is why I am still married. Guilt over being the one to pull the plug.


I'm in a similar situation to you. I wish I had an answer for you. My best to you.


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

2xloser said:


> For me, the answer to the original question (”When do you give up?") was this: When I could comfortably look in the mirror and say to myself that I'd done everything within my power find a way to forgive and to save my marriage -- if not for me, then for my son.
> .




IMO, you get there a lot faster if you have enough humility to recognize that you aren't responsible for somebody else's horrible behavior, and as a spouse it's not your job to police them either.


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## SkyeBlue (Nov 11, 2013)

Like someone else mentioned here, a lot more has gone on than what I wrote in just a few posts. WS wants his affair rug sweep, but when I told him I was going to divorce him (early on), he said he would kill himself. I know not to believe this threat tactic. He was sorry and he wanted forgiveness, swore he'd never cheat again, etc. He said whatever he had to say, but I do not believe a word of it. He wanted it all to disappear as if it never happened. 

I read never to make any quick decisions and to give it time. I work outside the home, but don't make anything near what he does. There were many concerns for me. Many. It wasn't as clear cut as "just leave!" I always thought infidelity would be an immediate deal breaker for me and perhaps it should have been. When actually faced with it though, I found myself in shock and not capable of making any decisions easily. So time passed and I have always hoped I would regain some of my feelings for him. That hasn't happened because I cannot look at him without thinking about what he did. To me, he proved how insignificant his marriage is to him. I can't overlook that now because if he felt that way back then, what would change his way of thinking now? It's in his very soul to be narcissistic and think only of himself and what he can get for himself. He acted like he was remorseful, and believe me when I tell you he lost the loving wife he once had. He knows he screwed it all up. Literally. He wants me to feel sorry for him. He acts sad and mopey. I see it all as one big act and I absolutely do not feel sorry for him. I'm not buying the act. 

I never thought it should fall on me to tell the OM. I have written a letter that I intend to send to everyone (and I do mean everyone that both of them know) explaining why I've left and am divorcing my WS. It was therapeutic to write it. Will I ever leave and be able to send it out? I'm thinking yes. I will. I can see that I have given it more than enough time and I have put myself through so much. And for what? To keep up the charade that I have a good marriage? I think my own self-respect and following what my heart tells me is right will win over and I will find my freedom soon. I won't live my life being the wife who has to monitor and keep tabs on her husband. I no longer care. I just want out. I don't feel like I will ever be able to fully trust another person, but even a life as a single would be better than this. Single seems lonely, but easier somehow. 

Thank you all for your advice. I do agree that I feel like the most duped person in the world and it's a million times worse that I have let it happen with no serious repercussions to either of the cheaters. That can all change.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

SkyeBlue,

Have you requested he go to MC with you, so you can see how he acts when a professional counselor, who is also a professional bullsh*t detector, asks him some pointed questions?

Are there things he hasn't done that you have asked him to do in order to restore your trust and show you he is willing to do anything he can possibly do to fix his side of the broken marriage?

Are you thinking that no matter what he does to fix himself or try to prove you can trust him for the rest of your lives together (i.e. counselling, deeding everything he owns and ever will own over to you in a post nup... cutting off his left n*t, or whatever) you can never trust or love him again?

Only you can know the answer to this.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

SkyeBlue said:


> I never thought it should fall on me to tell the OM.


Sky,

This is the part that just kills me. It does. Its why I posted what I did and got RIPPED for it.

I would understand if this was recent for you, but its been THREE YEARS !

Think about the agony and hurt you have endured. How can you have no compassion for the BH. Its no more his fault than its yours.

If you don't want to expose in general, fine, that is your choice, but THE BH HAS THE RIGHT TO KNOW !


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

SkyeBlue said:


> My WS cheated on me 3 years ago. It was a choice he made, thinking I would never find out. Somehow it was okay as long as I didn't know about it. Of course, once I did find out, then it was a "mistake" and he wanted to stay married to me. Ended the affair no contact, or so he says. Do I trust him? Of course not. For all I know, he still sees her.
> 
> My question is for anyone who has attempted reconciliation, when do you give up trying? He would like to rug sweep everything and pretend it never happened. Life goes on like normal. No harm, no foul. For me, it changed the way I see him, the way I think about him, the way I see marriage, the way I no longer trust a thing I hear, the way I feel worthless and duped by him, the way I do not want any part of showing this man what he used to have - unconditional, 100% love. He lost all of that the moment he decided she was worth having on the side, his little secret.
> 
> It has been 3 years and my feelings for him are exactly the same as the day I found out about his affair. Is the best thing to divorce and move on? If I feel this way still, will it ever change? I can't help how I feel. I go along in limbo, but feel like my marriage is dead. He acts as if nothing at all is wrong. We're still married, so all is good in his world. When do I know it's really over? We do have children, which is why I am still married. Guilt over being the one to pull the plug.



Skyblue, 

Did I write this? 

~ sammy


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

barbados said:


> Sky,
> 
> This is the part that just kills me. It does. Its why I posted what I did and got RIPPED for it.
> 
> ...


I agree.. not telling the BS is a selfish move, since you have a bit of information that could potentially free them from being abused. If you hold the information that can set them free, why hold onto it? Also, if this person caused you pain, why would you want to make things easy on them? Let her husband know who she is, and let her live with consequences of her home wrecking.

It made me feel better to let the GF of my wifes POSOM know her boyfriend was a cheater. It sent a message to him, that you screwed with my life for a long time, now I'm screwing with yours. It showed her that there are guys out there that will do the right thing, and she wasn't with one of them. Basically for years he and my wife had been putting me down and disrespecting me together.. this gave me a chance to put him down and give her respect, and show her that feels, to have someone that has your back and cares about your well being. 

It's a win win.. I'd highly recommend letting the other person know they've been living a lie. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.. or something like that. You'd want to know... 

It's the right thing to do for those couple reasons. For you and for him.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

TimeHeals said:


> IMO, you get there a lot faster if you have enough humility to recognize that you aren't responsible for somebody else's horrible behavior, and as a spouse it's not your job to police them either.


YES, yes, my bad -- however my post should have said "when I knew I'd done everything I could to TRY to forgive and yet realized that I couldn't."

But not hijacking the thread, thanks


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

I'm probably in the minority here, but I think you should divorce this guy. Rug sweeping, manipulating by threatening suicide if you leave, not _really_ being culpable...

It's really very difficult for you that your kids have begged him to stay - that puts enormous pressure on you to force this to work.

I tried to R after my stbxw cheated, and found I couldn't do it, and didn't want to do it. We have 2 young kids (5 and 8 at the time). I'm divorcing her, and it's the best move I could've made for myself and my kids. Not an easy path, but after your spouse betrays you in the worst possible way, there's no such thing as an "easy path", ever again. There's no easy way out or forward.

But I don't believe it's fair to you to stay in the marriage strictly for your kids, painful as that may be for them.

This is your life. They will be adults soon. If you can't live with what he's done, and he's not putting in ALL the work he needs to and meeting ALL of your needs, you should divorce and find a man worthy of your love.


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