# Can someone explain "friend zoned" to me, please?



## NobodySpecial

So a man is interested in a woman. The woman is not romantically interested in the man. The woman is seen as putting the man in the "friend zone" as some sort of malicious act that she should not do. What should she do? Some people do believe that men and women can be friends. Some of my best buds are men. What IS this friend zone thing?


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## SentHereForAReason

There's two ways this situation usually plays out and how you describe it is one way and the woman can't really be at fault if she doesn't like him for more than a friend. That's on the dude to realize this and either make a conscious decision to remain friends or call it a day.

Where it becomes malicious is when the dude is strung along and led on that there's a hint of something more than a friendship so the woman has a backup plan or a built-in 24/7 Plan B. Whenever she needs him, he is at her beck and call but when a better option is available, she drops him quicker than you can say "you're nice but"


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## NobodySpecial

stillfightingforus said:


> There's two ways this situation usually plays out and how you describe it is one way and the woman can't really be at fault if she doesn't like him for more than a friend. That's on the dude to realize this and either make a conscious decision to remain friends or call it a day.
> 
> Where it becomes malicious is when the dude is strung along and led on that there's a hint of something more than a friendship so the woman has a backup plan or a built-in 24/7 Plan B. Whenever she needs him, he is at her beck and call but when a better option is available, she drops him quicker than you can say "you're nice but"


What does "strung along" and "hint" look like? I mean if I call someone and say want to go see a movie, am I stringing them along?


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## ConanHub

I've never been "zoned", I've only heard about it and not IRL.


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## NextTimeAround

NobodySpecial said:


> What does "strung along" and "hint" look like? I mean if I call someone and say want to go see a movie, am I stringing them along?


The woman may go back and forth giving him (physical) affection as if they were on the verge of having a relationship, but then the woman has no qualms trying to hit on / get hit on by other guys.

Men judge women by their actions. So while a woman may think she has covered herself by saying "we're just friends, right", he's thinking, well, if she acts like a girlfriend then she must be one or on the road to being there.

What I have been on the receiving end for is dating a guy who has a woman pulling his strings. That's on the guy, though. Some men will think it's cool having a woman "organize" his life, tell him what to do, give him advice in the spirit of caring about him; they "outsource " their social life to one or two women so if that woman does not approve of whom he's dating (among other things), she has developed some leverage over him to control him.

Psychology Today has a column called the Attraction Doctor. One article quotes heavily a survey on opposite sex friends. It concluded that a lot of men realise the raw deal that they are getting because when they go out with a female friend, she still expects the girlfriend treatment ie, he pays for the evening; provides her transportation and so on while she's still free to date whomever she wants.

Men do have a choice. Some need to wake up from the dream and take control of their own life. That means getting involved in making your own friends and not depend on someone to include you in their social activities; also means understanding boundaries and not letting women / "women friends" cross them or think it's fun to watch a "cat fight."


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## SentHereForAReason

NobodySpecial said:


> What does "strung along" and "hint" look like? I mean if I call someone and say want to go see a movie, am I stringing them along?


From a point of view or to get into the mindset. Think of yourself starting to like someone that you are hanging out with and getting to know. Basically the beginning stages of a relationship. They are flirting with you, they are sending you signals. You know what they are doing and it feels good. You go on 'dates'. Then the first moment you go for something that a boyfriend/girlfriend would do, the rug gets pulled from under you and the other person tells you, oh I don't like you like that or even worse, they kind of sidestep it to not deliver the death blow right away and to keep you hanging and wondering. That's being friendzoned.


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## NobodySpecial

NextTimeAround said:


> The woman may go back and forth giving him (physical) affection as if they were on the verge of having a relationship, but then the woman has no qualms trying to hit on / get hit on by other guys.
> 
> Men judge women by their actions. So while a woman may think she has covered herself by saying "we're just friends, right", he's thinking, well, if she acts like a girlfriend then she must be one or on the road to being there.


I walked into a fitness class on Friday. All women. We all hugged. I don't even know these people. My husband was out with one of his friends, female. She was all a mess due to a recent break up and general life confusion. DH gave her many hugs, arm touches. When I arrived and asked how she was, she said not good. I gave her a hug and a kiss on the cheek. And asked her what she needed. Are those things "acting like a girlfriend"?

I mean, what SHOULD she be doing? How does she know he is imagining more when she is TELLING him they are just friends? Why is the friend zone attributed as a malicious act?


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## NobodySpecial

stillfightingforus said:


> From a point of view or to get into the mindset. Think of yourself starting to like someone that you are hanging out with and getting to know. Basically the beginning stages of a relationship. They are flirting with you, they are sending you signals. You know what they are doing and it feels good. You go on 'dates'. Then the first moment you go for something that a boyfriend/girlfriend would do, the rug gets pulled from under you and the other person tells you, oh I don't like you like that or even worse, they kind of sidestep it to not deliver the death blow right away and to keep you hanging and wondering. That's being friendzoned.


So it is all magical, unknowable stuff?

[ETA] I am trying to understand. Flirting is a promise of more? So flirting and not delivering more is the malicious act?


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## Livvie

stillfightingforus said:


> There's two ways this situation usually plays out and how you describe it is one way and the woman can't really be at fault if she doesn't like him for more than a friend. That's on the dude to realize this and either make a conscious decision to remain friends or call it a day.
> 
> Where it becomes malicious is when the dude is strung along and led on that there's a hint of something more than a friendship so the woman has a backup plan or a built-in 24/7 Plan B. Whenever she needs him, he is at her beck and call but when a better option is available, she drops him quicker than you can say "you're nice but"


Isn't it on the man to not be in the friend zone? If the woman isn't interested in him as more than a friend, but he is interested in her, then if he doesn't want to be friend zoned then just stop contact with this person altogether. You know if someone is interested or not. "Hope" isn't interested. 

No being attracted to sometime isn't malicious. Hanging around and willingly being in the friend zone due to "hope" of future interested is all on the hanger on.


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## NobodySpecial

Livvie said:


> Isn't it on the man to not be in the friend zone? If the woman isn't interested in him as more than a friend, but he is interested in her, then if he doesn't want to be friend zoned then just stop contact with this person altogether. You know if someone is interested or not. "Hope" isn't interested.
> 
> No being attracted to sometime isn't malicious. Hanging around and willingly being in the friend zone due to "hope" of future interested is all on the hanger on.


While I get being interested in someone and not having them interested in you is a bummer, what I don't get is the attribution of malice or ill intent.


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## arbitrator

*Please be advised that being "friend-zoned" works both ways! Women can do to men just as easily as men can do it to women! 

Which is still better than being "ghosted!" Which is what my current out of town GF is doing to me by no longer being responsive to any of my emails, texts, or calls! *


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## SentHereForAReason

Livvie said:


> Isn't it on the man to not be in the friend zone? If the woman isn't interested in him as more than a friend, but he is interested in her, then if he doesn't want to be friend zoned then just stop contact with this person altogether. You know if someone is interested or not. "Hope" isn't interested.
> 
> No being attracted to sometime isn't malicious. Hanging around and willingly being in the friend zone due to "hope" of future interested is all on the hanger on.


I think you are missing the point in some respects. If a woman lets the man know she is not interested in anything more than a friendship, then yes, that's the dude's own fault and he can stay as a friend or move on. That was one of the two versions of this aspect I pointed out.

The other one, where it's malicious is that it's not clear that the woman only wants to be friends and she keeps him around as the backup and in a jam. Sort of the same scenario but not as extreme as a false reconciliation after an affair. The unknowing party thinks things are fine are going the way they want but the puppet master has the control and purposely strings along the other person without making it clear they are only friends or that they have no interests in them, other than using them for what suits them. That's where it sucks. Sooner or later, the dude will get the point and that's when it is on the guy to disengage or it's his own fault he continues to stay in this cycle.


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## NextTimeAround

NobodySpecial said:


> I walked into a fitness class on Friday. All women. We all hugged. I don't even know these people. My husband was out with one of his friends, female. She was all a mess due to a recent break up and general life confusion. DH gave her many hugs, arm touches. When I arrived and asked how she was, she said not good. I gave her a hug and a kiss on the cheek. And asked her what she needed. Are those things "acting like a girlfriend"?
> 
> I mean, what SHOULD she be doing? How does she know he is imagining more when she is TELLING him they are just friends? Why is the friend zone attributed as a malicious act?


This is where it gets murky. If you're alright with your husband's behavior with this woman, then it's alright.

The problem that I had was as soon as a woman felt she had access to my husband, then I just became an itch that they just ignored. So they call my husband; make plans with my husband; if my husband can't make it, then plans get cancelled. I'm nowhere a part of this planning. I have been told by women "my friendship with your husband has nothing to do with you." so, of course, I am very wary of male female relationships. 

Remember also, opposite sex friendships are the pre cursor to emotional affairs. Some women like emotional affairs because they like getting the attention usually saved for an exclusive partner without having "to put out."

Is there anything current going on that has motivated you to ask?


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## personofinterest

He, friend zoned is an imaginary verb made up by some socially awkward guy somewhere who got mad when a girl he thought he was entitled to told him no. Are there women out there who lead men on? Yes. Are there men who do the same? Yes.

For most of history, if someone was friendly but not interested, we just nursed the sting and moved on.

Now, thanks to basements, neckbeards, and TheRedPill, it's some nefarious female scheme to stick it to the nice guys so we can all date Danny Zucco.


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## NobodySpecial

arbitrator said:


> *Please be advised that being "friend-zoned" works both ways! Women can do to men just as easily as men can do it to women!
> *


*

Yah. But what is the IT that they are doing?*


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## minimalME

NobodySpecial said:


> So it is all magical, unknowable stuff?


Basically, it's a man feeling sorry for himself because he's not getting laid.


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## SentHereForAReason

personofinterest said:


> He, friend zoned is an imaginary verb made up by some socially awkward guy somewhere who got mad when a girl he thought he was entitled to told him no. Are there women out there who lead men on? Yes. Are there men who do the same? Yes.
> 
> For most of history, if someone was friendly but not interested, we just nursed the sting and moved on.
> 
> Now, thanks to basements, neckbeards, and TheRedPill, it's some nefarious female scheme to stick it to the nice guys so we can all date Danny Zucco.


Ironically, in this type of friendzone scenario, this is how Facebook came to be invented lol


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## Steve2.0

Here is my take.. Being friend zoned is when a girl doesn't have the tingles between the legs for a guy. Instead of telling the guy "I dont like you" it seems that they DO like the emotional/talk of a male and try to keep him around (or too scared to dump him) so they friend zone him. Many guys stick around hoping that one day she will change her mind (but we all know that never happens) and he ends up wasting all this time.

A lot of times it's girls too scared to tell someone 'we are done' and men too scared to say 'f*** that, i dont want to just be friends' -> Its like two nice people who will be passive aggressive towards eachother forever b/c they both have different agendas.


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## NextTimeAround

minimalME said:


> Basically, it's a man feeling sorry for himself because he's not getting laid.


I don't want to be too tough on men. I at one time bought in to the belief that men and woman can friends. Mix that with people will always do the right thing. And well, I had set myself up to abused and marginalised by those who had no conscious.

The interesting thing that I found was that the same women who claimed that their husband had no female friends would pretty much helicopter around their husband at social activities while seeing no irony in getting chummy in someone else's husband.

My attitude to all this is do what you need to do keep your own home / relationship together ...... but do not get hypocritical about it. Do not call my husband if you do everything you can to discourage women from calling your husband and so on.


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## personofinterest

It's not being hard on someone, it dragging them into the realm of normal social awareness.

"Why did she smile at me in class if she wasn't interested??? She led me on!!! Women suck!!!"

Yes, this person needs a dose of reality. Not being interested is not a personal offense or character flaw. Shake it off 🙂


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## Yeswecan

stillfightingforus said:


> There's two ways this situation usually plays out and how you describe it is one way and the woman can't really be at fault if she doesn't like him for more than a friend. That's on the dude to realize this and either make a conscious decision to remain friends or call it a day.
> 
> Where it becomes malicious is when the dude is strung along and led on that there's a hint of something more than a friendship so the woman has a backup plan or a built-in 24/7 Plan B. Whenever she needs him, he is at her beck and call but when a better option is available, she drops him quicker than you can say "you're nice but"


^^^^yep^^^^^


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## personofinterest

If a man knows a woman is not interested and he continues to be her puppy....that man needs some backbone and a good pair of tennis shoes so he can make tracks away from her.

In college, I pined for a guy who made it clear we were just friends for two years. Yeah, it was sad. And yeah, it wasn't his fault.

Then again, I didn't feel entitled to him, blame him, and rant on reddit about the entire male gender.

So....yeah


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## NobodySpecial

NextTimeAround said:


> I don't want to be too tough on men. I at one time bought in to the belief that men and woman can friends. Mix that with people will always do the right thing. And well, I had set myself up to abused and marginalised by those who had no conscious.


Are you willing to share what that looked like? What was the conscience-less-ness in the activities that marginalize or abused you?



> The interesting thing that I found was that the same women who claimed that their husband had no female friends would pretty much helicopter around their husband at social activities while seeing no irony in getting chummy in someone else's husband.
> 
> My attitude to all this is do what you need to do keep your own home / relationship together ...... but do not get hypocritical about it. Do not call my husband if you do everything you can to discourage women from calling your husband and so on.


I am totally down with do unto others. I would imagine that if one feels that male and female friendships cannot healthily exist, consistency is key.


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## minimalME

personofinterest said:


> If a man knows a woman is not interested and he continues to be her puppy....that man needs some backbone and a good pair of tennis shoes so he can make tracks away from her.
> 
> In college, I pined for a guy who made it clear we were just friends for two years. Yeah, it was sad. And yeah, it wasn't his fault.
> 
> Then again, I didn't feel entitled to him, blame him, and rant on reddit about the entire male gender.
> 
> So....yeah


Yeah, I don't really understand the whole male/female friendship thing, and I don't seek out male friends. I have one male friend that I work with, but he's gay, so there's none of this 'friend zone' stuff to worry about.

I find that most men who get close to me do it to see if there's relationship potential - ie, am I willing to have sex on their terms. Once they discover that the answer is no, they're gone and that's that.


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## uhtred

It generally means a situation where a woman views a man as a friend, but not a a potential romantic interest.

Simple enough. Where it gets complicated is that this can happen in a lot of different situations and people can react differently to it.

If the man was romantically interested in the woman, then being friend-zoned is very unpleasant. Its not the woman's fault in any way, but that doesn't make it less unpleasant to the man who's hopes are dashed -and who may feel it is a more global rejection.

If the woman lead the man on with hints of romance in order to get favors, then it is bad behavior on her part.

Some men accept being friend-zoned with dignity, others behave badly in response.


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## CharlieParker

I always thought the term was about guys teasing/trash talking a guy who got shot down in a public and likely cringeworthy way. 

While one certainly doesn't want to be in the Friend Zone, is it OK to just be friends?


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## minimalME

CharlieParker said:


> While one certainly doesn't want to be in the Friend Zone, is it OK to just be friends?


I think it depends on the individual.

I can be true friends with a man I'm not attracted to. Otherwise, I stay away.


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## NobodySpecial

minimalME said:


> Yeah, I don't really understand the whole male/female friendship thing, and I don't seek out male friends. I have one male friend that I work with, but he's gay, so there's none of this 'friend zone' stuff to worry about.


Different strokes, I guess. This is strange to me. I don't see people in my world as potential partners or mates. I just see people. If something else happens beyond that, we go there, or don't.


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## minimalME

NobodySpecial said:


> Different strokes, I guess. This is strange to me. I don't see people in my world as potential partners or mates. *I just see people.* If something else happens beyond that, we go there, or don't.


I understand, and to a certain extent, I agree.

But that's the whole premise of the thread. The 'friend zone' phenomenon exists precisely because very few men view women as 'neutral' (just seeing people). They see them as potential sex targets.

As a woman, I'm more 'male' in this respect. Men are very sexually charged for me, so I usually just find it best to keep my distance.


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## arbitrator

NobodySpecial said:


> Yah. But what is the IT that they are doing?


*What they are doing is relegating for any reason to a status whereby there will never be any discernible hope of entering into a romantic or semi-romantic relationship!

This, they get themselves "friend-zoned!" They can only be friends!*


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## NobodySpecial

minimalME said:


> I understand, and to a certain extent, I agree.
> 
> But that's the whole premise of the thread. The 'friend zone' phenomenon exists precisely because *very few men view women as 'neutral' (just seeing people). They see them as potential sex targets*.
> 
> As a woman, I'm more 'male' in this respect. Men are very sexually charged for me, so I usually just find it best to keep my distance.


I am glad I don't know many people like that! Male or female.


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## minimalME

NobodySpecial said:


> I am glad I don't know many people like that! Male or female.


Well, it's a healthy male response. 

If you don't think that your male friends fantazise about having sex with you, then I'd say that's naive.


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## farsidejunky

NobodySpecial said:


> So a man is interested in a woman. The woman is not romantically interested in the man. The woman is seen as putting the man in the "friend zone" as some sort of malicious act that she should not do. What should she do? Some people do believe that men and women can be friends. Some of my best buds are men. What IS this friend zone thing?


It isn't malicious. 

However...

When younger, I have been friend zoned when enamored with a female. She worked me for acts of service and ego hits for several months. I was young and dumb.

So...being friend zoned is not in and of itself malicious. However, those who use that "hopium" for gain just plain suck. 

Additionally, the man who doesn't immediately recognize he is in the friend zone needs a significant 2x4 to gain situational awareness to take action. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial

minimalME said:


> Well, it's a healthy male response.
> 
> If you don't think that your male friends fantazise about having sex with you, then I'd say that's naive.


I have no interest in knowing what goes on in the private parts of other people's heads. But that my friends, male, female, straight, bi or gay, do not view me as a potential sex partner, I am sure.


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## NobodySpecial

farsidejunky said:


> It isn't malicious.
> 
> However...
> 
> When younger, I have been friend zoned when enamored with a female. She worked me for acts of service and ego hits for several months. I was young and dumb.
> 
> So...being friend zoned is not* in and of itself maliciou*s. However, those who use that "hopium" for gain just plain suck.


Interesting hedge. In and of itself it isn't. When IS it?


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## ButtPunch

TBH.....the friend zone works both ways

I have friend zoned girls back in college in an attempt to 
get some of her sorority sisters. One in particular, was a 
pretty college cheerleader who I liked but was too promiscuous
for my taste. 

I basically kept her as a friend as a roadmap to her friends.
She was the best wingman ever.

Don't judge me..... just being honest


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## NobodySpecial

ButtPunch said:


> TBH.....the friend zone works both ways
> 
> I have friend zoned girls back in college in an attempt to
> get some of her sorority sisters. One in particular, was a
> pretty college cheerleader who I liked but was too promiscuous
> for my taste.
> 
> I basically kept her as a friend as a roadmap to her friends.
> She was the best wingman ever.
> 
> Don't judge me..... just being honest


God help us for the maladaptive things we do in college! I just wonder about it coming up among grown ups.


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## farsidejunky

NobodySpecial said:


> Interesting hedge. In and of itself it isn't. When IS it?


When one knows there is a crush, yet they have no intention of allowing it to go beyond friends, and leveraging that crush to gain favor.

Women frequently do it for acts of service and conversation.

Men frequently do it for sex.

It is essentially an underhanded method of getting emotional needs met.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## minimalME

ButtPunch said:


> TBH.....the friend zone works both ways
> 
> I have friend zoned girls back in college in an attempt to
> get some of her sorority sisters. One in particular, was a
> pretty college cheerleader who I liked but *was too promiscuous
> for my taste.*
> 
> I basically kept her as a friend as a roadmap to her friends.
> She was the best wingman ever.
> 
> Don't judge me..... just being honest


Interesting. How do men decide how promiscuous is too promiscuous? (Genuinely curious.)

I mean, you wanted to use her for convenient sex, yes? So you wanted to use someone less used?

And then you used her anyway, in a different way, to get to her friends? 

Boggles the mind.


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## SpinyNorman

NobodySpecial said:


> While I get being interested in someone and not having them interested in you is a bummer, what I don't get is the attribution of malice or ill intent.


It's easier than taking responsibility for your own actions.

While I think it is wrong to mislead anyone about your intentions, there are a lot of conflicting definitions of what different social things mean. Some people think going on a date is a solemn romantic commitment and others think its just fun that may or may not lead to anything. I think if it's that important to know what someone's intentions are, ask them and if they outright lie then they are a jerk. OTOH if you rely on wishful thinking, that is your own problem.

PS- "you" in my post is a rhetorical device and not NobodySpecial.


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## ButtPunch

minimalME said:


> Interesting. How do men decide how promiscuous is too promiscuous? (Genuinely curious.)
> 
> I mean, you wanted to use her for convenient sex, yes? So you wanted to use someone less used?
> 
> And then you used her anyway, in a different way, to get to her friends?
> 
> Boggles the mind.


I never had sex with her.

We would sleep in the same bed and cuddle but no sex.

We were "besties"

I knew she liked me and yes I know it's wrong.

and to her credit after a couple of years she disappeared and never spoke to me again after
she probably put two and two together


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## SpinyNorman

minimalME said:


> Well, it's a healthy male response.
> 
> If you don't think that your male friends fantazise about having sex with you, then I'd say that's naive.


Even when I was young and horny there were female friends I didn't fantasize sex with.


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## minimalME

SpinyNorman said:


> Even when I was young and horny there were female friends I didn't fantasize sex with.


Were you attracted to them? If so, okay.


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## ButtPunch

minimalME said:


> Interesting. How do men decide how promiscuous is too promiscuous? (Genuinely curious.)


I don't like girls that have slept with people I know such as my
frat brothers.


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## minimalME

ButtPunch said:


> I don't like girls that have slept with people I know such as my
> frat brothers.


Ah! So, it's not necessarily that she was promiscuous? Just that she'd slept with men you knew?

If she'd slept with people you didn't know, would that have mattered?


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## NobodySpecial

farsidejunky said:


> When one knows there is a crush, yet they have no intention of allowing it to go beyond friends, and leveraging that crush to gain favor.
> 
> Women frequently do it for acts of service and conversation.
> 
> Men frequently do it for sex.
> 
> It is essentially an underhanded method of getting emotional needs met.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I wonder how you determine someone is using to gain favor or sex? How do you know someone is being underhanded? I mean I have had tons of men try to get in my pants with less than perfect honest behavior. When I say no, that means no. What's the thing?


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## personofinterest

NobodySpecial said:


> God help us for the maladaptive things we do in college! I just wonder about it coming up among grown ups.


Have you seen today's "grown ups"? It ain't what it used to be. Heck, A guy used to call me on a LAND LINE on Tuesday to ask me out for Saturday. And he didn't even follow up Saturday to let me know the date was still on. He just showed up at 7:00 like he said he would and I was ready.

And if we had two dates and he never called again? He wasn't interested. Maybe I'd whine to a friend, but there was nothing called "ghosting", which is another made-up whiny term.

These younguns never would have survived the brave frontier of those of us who first dated in the 1980s lol


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## minimalME

personofinterest said:


> These younguns never would have survived the brave frontier of those of us who first dated in the 1980s lol


I'd gladly go back to the dating standards of the 80s.


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## SpinyNorman

minimalME said:


> Were you attracted to them? If so, okay.


Not sure how to answer that. The ones who weren't pretty fell into that category but it would sometimes occur to me that there was a friend I'd never thought about dating or getting into bed with or even fantasizing about, and couldn't think of a good reason why not. So I don't know if that means I was attracted to them or not.


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## Wolf1974

SpinyNorman said:


> Even when I was young and horny there were female friends I didn't fantasize sex with.


Yep me as well. I have plenty of female friends I never think of in a sexual way. If I wanted them in a sexual way they wouldn’t really be friends then.:scratchhead:


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## ButtPunch

minimalME said:


> Ah! So, it's not necessarily that she was promiscuous? Just that she'd slept with men you knew?
> 
> If she'd slept with people you didn't know, would that have mattered?


Probably

But that would only have improved her situation to friend with benefits


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## NobodySpecial

personofinterest said:


> Have you seen today's "grown ups"? It ain't what it used to be. Heck, A guy used to call me on a LAND LINE on Tuesday to ask me out for Saturday. And he didn't even follow up Saturday to let me know the date was still on. He just showed up at 7:00 like he said he would and I was ready.
> 
> And if we had two dates and he never called again? He wasn't interested. Maybe I'd whine to a friend, but there was nothing called "ghosting", which is another made-up whiny term.
> 
> These younguns never would have survived the brave frontier of those of us who first dated in the 1980s lol


It is interesting. I have been yelled at by guys who were bitter that I did not want to go out with them. Why am I not giving them a chance and stuff. Well we just chatted for an hour, and I was good enough for that hour. As if, what having taken an hour, I am now obligated to go on a date? When I go on that date, then what I am obligated to do? Then comes the whole well why not question. If I am foolish enough to answer that, I can be guaranteed for some pretty awful vitriol.

But even seemingly reasonable guys on TAM think it is a thing. So I was wondering what the thing is.


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## NobodySpecial

Wolf1974 said:


> Yep me as well. I have plenty of female friends I never think of in a sexual way. If I wanted them in a sexual way they wouldn’t really be friends then.:scratchhead:


DH described it to me as something that scoots by the brain for a second then is gone.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

NobodySpecial said:


> It is interesting. I have been yelled at by guys who were bitter that I did not want to go out with them. Why am I not giving them a chance and stuff. Well we just chatted for an hour, and I was good enough for that hour. As if, what having taken an hour, I am now obligated to go on a date? When I go on that date, then what I am obligated to do? Then comes the whole well why not question. If I am foolish enough to answer that, I can be guaranteed for some pretty awful vitriol.
> 
> But even seemingly reasonable guys on TAM think it is a thing. So I was wondering what the thing is.


Bottom line here, at least as I see it, is that some guys just don't take it well when their dreams are crushed. "Can't we just be friends?" or "You're a great friend" are, to some men, in some situations, the most devastating words they can hear. 

Since it is so crushing, some automatically jump to assumption of nefarious intent. After all, how could someone be so cruel, so heartless as to crush me like that? She _must _be evil!

The irony here is that most guys who get friend zoned are classic nice guys who try to earn favor by ingratiating themselves with the woman and establishing a friendship that they hope will lead to romance. In doing so, they make themselves a good listener (women all want that, right?) believing their lack of direct approach to romance will prove their good intentions and be rewarded accordingly. In essence, they friend zoned themselves long before the woman did.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Can someone explain &quot;friend zoned&quot; to me, please?*



NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder how you determine someone is using to gain favor or sex? How do you know someone is being underhanded? I mean I have had tons of men try to get in my pants with less than perfect honest behavior. When I say no, that means no. What's the thing?


It normally isn't discovered until after you have been used.

You know...you go to make that call to him the morning after and you can't reach him. Then the following Friday, you get the call to come over to "watch some TV".

Or...

She is "too busy to hang out" until she needs her dryer moved. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## NextTimeAround

NobodySpecial said:


> Are you willing to share what that looked like? What was the conscience-less-ness in the activities that marginalize or abused you?
> 
> 
> 
> I am totally down with do unto others. I would imagine that if one feels that male and female friendships cannot healthily exist, consistency is key.


1. This was in the 90s when using a cellphone exclusively was very expensive. My husband and I regularly answered the home phone. If I answered, these women wanted to be passed on to my husband almost immediately and would get really quiet if I didn't do it. If my husband answered, they would speak to him and try to avoid speaking to me.

2. They would make plans with him. The date was always to suit him. If later he couldn't make it, plans would be completely cancelled even if I could still come.

3. These women would monopolise my husband's attention whenever we went out. 

and so on........

I thought maybe I was doing something wrong ...... not nice enough, not interesting enough. Now, I am like other women. You are friends with me and not with my husband. And if you don't like that, you can go find your friends elsewhere.

And it's amazing how territorial women can become. I was friends with one woman. And we were getting together fairly regularly. She introduced me to a male friend of hers and 3 of us did things together. This was after my marriage had collapsed. So while this woman was just friends with this guy, she got pissed off that I had called him about something ie "I heard you called my friend....."

He invited the two of use to dinner at his place. I had a car at that time and offered to drive us both there. We lived in South London and he lived North London. Yes, it was a hike. When I said that I would call him for directions, she got really angry and said that she would call him for me. I called him anyway.

This is the same woman, who, when I told him that a female friend that she knew e-mailed my husband directly in response to a question that I had asked (about getting together), and Miss Got a Ride for free told me she didn't see what the problem was. And then tried to shore it up by saying, it was probably easier to e-mail my husband than me. Really, I asked ....... you mean hitting the reply button was too much work......


----------



## Wolf1974

NobodySpecial said:


> DH described it to me as something that scoots by the brain for a second then is gone.


Guess that’s a second more than I give but I do get his meaning. For me if your a friend that’s all I see you as. I don’t fantasize about my friends. If I felt a sexual attraction for them I would have pursued them as a relationship. And if they didn’t want that then we couldn’t be friends either because I feel it’s disingenuous to pretend to be friends if I wanted more. I guess that’s why I don’t participate in the “friends zone”


----------



## Bananapeel

I look at men being friend zoned as meaning they are in an unbalanced relationship where the man likes the woman romantically, while she likes him platonically, but he hopes that if he sticks around and kisses her butt that she'll eventually develop romantic feelings for him. The idea is basically perpetuated by Hollywood in romantic movies where the woman realizes at the end that she really loved her beta male best friend and he's the perfect guy for her. 

I personally don't lay blame on the women for this. After all, if a guy is going to give a woman time, money, attention, etc. out of his own free will without her reciprocating, why should she have to turn that down if she makes it known she's not wanting romance as part of the deal? If she were to be dishonest and not tell the guy and just string him along, then I'd lay some blame on her. But usually, it is the man that chooses to not listen to very clear dialogue from the woman.


----------



## bandit.45

When a girl kisses you on the cheek and tells you how sweet you are after you have done all you can to show her your affection. You've been zoned. Pack it in and go home.


----------



## bandit.45

Bananapeel said:


> I look at men being friend zoned as meaning they are in an unbalanced relationship where the man likes the woman romantically, while she likes him platonically, but he hopes that if he sticks around and kisses her butt that she'll eventually develop romantic feelings for him. The idea is basically perpetuated by Hollywood in romantic movies where the woman realizes at the end that she really loved her beta male best friend and he's the perfect guy for her.
> 
> I personally don't lay blame on the women for this. After all, if a guy is going to give a woman time, money, attention, etc. out of his own free will without her reciprocating, why should she have to turn that down if she makes it known she's not wanting romance as part of the deal? If she were to be dishonest and not tell the guy and just string him along, then I'd lay some blame on her. But usually, it is the man that chooses to not listen to very clear dialogue from the woman.


I totally agree with you. 

Which is why I think men should spend their money on hookers instead.


----------



## samyeagar

bandit.45 said:


> I totally agree with you.
> 
> Which is why I think men should spend their money on hookers instead.


Usually way cheaper that way.


----------



## naiveonedave

personofinterest said:


> It's not being hard on someone, it dragging them into the realm of normal social awareness.
> 
> "Why did she smile at me in class if she wasn't interested??? She led me on!!! Women suck!!!"
> 
> Yes, this person needs a dose of reality. Not being interested is not a personal offense or character flaw. Shake it off 🙂


you are missing the malicious side of some of these relationships. The girl acts the GF until anything remotely sexual is about to happen. But hugs, dates, rotate my tires, shoulder to cry on, all mostly for her benefit. This is actually very common today. A lot of teenaged girls who have been taught their whole life that they can have it all attempt to friendzone boys, so they always have 'dates', but actually have zero investment in the relationship or just luv the drama. Talk to parents of teen boys who are dating/trying to date. Some of the time, the women actually do suck. Some of it is on the boys for taking it, but it is really hard when you are young to decipher when such behavior is actually abusive. You clearly aren't looking at this from the man's perspective, only from the women's perspective.


----------



## bandit.45

samyeagar said:


> Usually way cheaper that way.


Why spend all your cash in the 50/50 chance that your date might put out for you? With a hooker there's no dinner or movie to mess with. You get to bypass all that crap and go straight to what you wanted in the first place.


----------



## NobodySpecial

bandit.45 said:


> Why spend all your cash in the 50/50 chance that your date might put out for you? With a hooker there's no dinner or movie to mess with. You get to bypass all that crap and go straight to what you wanted in the first place.


Why would anyone "date" if all they wanted was to get laid? Duh. It must be all her fault that all someone wanted was to get laid and they played some stupid game to get there.


----------



## Bananapeel

bandit.45 said:


> When a girl kisses you on the cheek and tells you how sweet you are after you have done all you can to show her your affection. You've been zoned. Pack it in and go home.


I had a woman try this on me. We were long time friends and I asked her out on a date (and yes I used the word "date" so there was no ambiguity of my intentions). First date went well and ended up with a topless make out session. Second date ended with her giving me a hug and kiss on the cheek. I ghosted her after that, and since she knew me for such a long time I doubt it came as a shock to her.


----------



## Ikaika

Insecurity is how I phrase this whole topic. If a guy is interested in woman and she obviously is not receptive to that level of relationship. And, if the guy can’t accept the friend zone status, move on. There is no need to take it personally. 

If I were single - I would accept that there are some women who will not find me an attractive mate and vise versa, this is not mean spirited or unusual. Statistics will eventually favor the one who is willing to take as many chances as possible but still have a hard enough skin to just move on. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Cletus

Men and women can't be friends, as was proven in "When Harry Met Sally"

https://youtu.be/iEV_pQIf3Og

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial

Cletus said:


> Men and women can't be friends, as was proven in "When Harry Met Sally"
> 
> https://youtu.be/iEV_pQIf3Og
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


I get all my life lessons from fictional movies!


----------



## Evinrude58

ButtPunch said:


> I never had sex with her.
> 
> *We would sleep in the same bed and cuddle but no sex.*
> 
> We were "besties"
> 
> I knew she liked me and yes I know it's wrong.
> 
> and to her credit after a couple of years she disappeared and never spoke to me again after
> she probably put two and two together


I never had that kind of self control in college. BRAVO Buttpunch....
Yeah, that was kinda wrong.... 

I had a friend like that in college but never realized she liked me (stupidly) until she ran up to my bud's car and yanked it open and planted a huge kiss on me and ran away and transferred to a different school the next semester...
I was just friends with her. I had zero attraction to her. One of the 3 "friends" I've had in my life that were female. She was an awesome listener and fun to talk to. I hate that I was oblivious and kinda hurt her....


----------



## Cletus

NobodySpecial said:


> I get all my life lessons from fictional movies!


There was more than just a grain of truth in that scene.


----------



## NobodySpecial

naiveonedave said:


> you are missing the malicious side of some of these relationships. The girl *acts the GF* until anything remotely sexual is about to happen.


What does that even mean? What does acting like a girlfriend MEAN? According to one poster, the woman in the vid was "all over" the guy? What even is that?



> But hugs, dates, rotate my tires, shoulder to cry on, all mostly for her benefit. This is actually very common today. A lot of teenaged girls who have been taught their whole life that they can have it all attempt to friendzone boys, so they always have 'dates', but actually have zero investment in the relationship or just luv the drama. Talk to parents of teen boys who are dating/trying to date. Some of the time, the women actually do suck. Some of it is on the boys for taking it, but it is really hard when you are young to decipher when such behavior is actually abusive. You clearly aren't looking at this from the man's perspective, only from the women's perspective.


Ok. I was not talking about teenagers. I will certainly agree that teenagers are morons. I am really wondering if you think there is a subculture that is telling young women "their whole lives" to friendzone boys so they have backups. I am guessing you have never been a teenaged girl? Or have them?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

As a father of two very attractive (both pretty and dynamic personality) now grown daughters, and having watched the parade of lovesick boys through their lives (and my home), and witnessed sometimes firsthand all the trail of broken hearts they have left in their wake, I have developed a new perspective on this phenomenon. 

Yes, there are women who will string a guy along for friendship, just as there are women who marry a safe man/good provider without the romance/hotness factor. But I think these instances are the exception rather than the rule. In most cases, a woman being friendly is just that. Guys can be really bad about misinterpreting mere congeniality as genuine romantic interest, and they can quickly build a fantasy around that. Girls often have no clue this is taking place. They're just doing their thing, having a good time, being social, etc. By the time the guy gets the gumption to make a move, the opportunity is lost, _if it ever was there in the first place_. At some point the girl sees what happens, and is forced to friend zone the lovesick puppy. It's never pretty when it happens, like getting cut from the team, but even worse. 

I say I have a new perspective on this as a father because looking at it from that angle, none of these boys were good enough for my daughters, and my daughters are good human beings so they would never behave in a duplicitous way, so it's clear that friend zoning, at least in these cases, is a necessity and in no way attributable to malice.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> I have no interest in knowing what goes on in the private parts of other people's heads. But that my friends, male, female, straight, bi or gay, do not view me as a potential sex partner, I am sure.


I know how irritating this will seem, implying that I know more about your friends than you do.....

BUT I would readily make a bet with you that some of your friends (those who are attracted to females), assuming that no other people had a problem with it, have thought about sex with you and would like to have sex with you (assuming they are attracted to people who look like you) 

Unfortunately, we'll never be able to prove this.


----------



## Cletus

I'm with @personofinterest on this one. The friend zone has more to do with the men who continue what is to them an unfulfilled relationship than it does with any action on the woman's part.

The cynical answer is that it's just another form of male self-victimization to cry over when his romantic overtures go unrewarded. Want to be just friends? Stick around. Want more? Move on. But don't cry about how she put you in a place that you can leave any time you sack up enough to do so.


----------



## Cletus

Duplicate post


----------



## Cletus

I'm with @personofinterest on this one. The friend zone has more to do with the men who continue what is to them an unfulfilled relationship than it does with any action on the woman's part.

The cynical answer is that it's just another form of male self-victimization to cry over when his romantic overtures go unrewarded. Want to be just friends? Stick around. Want more? Move on. But don't cry about how she put you in a place that you can leave any time you sack up enough to do so.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> I know how irritating this will seem, implying that I know more about your friends than you do.....
> 
> BUT I would readily make a bet with you that some of your friends (those who are attracted to females), assuming that no other people had a problem with it, have thought about sex with you and would like to have sex with you (assuming they are attracted to people who look like you)
> 
> Unfortunately, we'll never be able to prove this.


I know for a fact that among my best male friends that they know the consequences of having sex with me and thus do not. Cuz, being friends, we talk. I know it is foreign concept, but not all guys think exclusively with their ****s.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Cletus said:


> I'm with @personofinterest on this one. The friend zone has more to do with the men who continue what is to them an unfulfilled relationship than it does with any action on the woman's part.
> 
> The cynical answer is that it's just another form of male self-victimization to cry over when his romantic overtures go unrewarded. Want to be just friends? Stick around. Want more? Move on. But don't cry about how she put you in a place that you can leave any time you sack up enough to do so.


So there basically is no reasonable argument for women taking a friend zoning action out of malice? I am not finding one. Wondering what I am missing.


----------



## NextTimeAround

naiveonedave said:


> you are missing the malicious side of some of these relationships. The girl acts the GF until anything remotely sexual is about to happen. But hugs, dates, rotate my tires, shoulder to cry on, all mostly for her benefit. This is actually very common today. A lot of teenaged girls who have been taught their whole life that they can have it all attempt to friendzone boys, so they always have 'dates', but actually have zero investment in the relationship or just luv the drama. Talk to parents of teen boys who are dating/trying to date. Some of the time, the women actually do suck. Some of it is on the boys for taking it, but it is really hard when you are young to decipher when such behavior is actually abusive. You clearly aren't looking at this from the man's perspective, only from the women's perspective.


Guys may be completely unaware what their female friend is doing when they're not looking, ie chasing away other women who may have wanted to date him. This is what is known as **** blocking.

I saw the texts from my husband's so called friend. she offered to drop her boyfriend if he dropped me. She told him ask me how long I had been divorced and how much money I made. she told him to make me pay for stuff on dates while she expected him to pay for everything when they met up (because my husband refused to call it a date.)

I suspect because there are so many dating guides that tell men that their girlfriend should pay, they don't have a problem asking / expecting that, especially when the two regularly see each other.

But when you don't see your "friend" often, and you kind of like the *****iness from time to time; you probably justify rolling out the red carpet because "you don't see her that often." a guy can unwittingly start to treat his so called friend who, let's not forget, can still date and have sex with other men, better than he treats the person he calls / considers to be his exclusive partner.

I best way to handle this is not even allow your partner access to that precipice. This message board is riddled with stories about emotional affairs.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> It is interesting. I have been yelled at by guys who were bitter that I did not want to go out with them. Why am I not giving them a chance and stuff. Well we just chatted for an hour, and I was good enough for that hour. As if, what having taken an hour, I am now obligated to go on a date? When I go on that date, then what I am obligated to do? Then comes the whole well why not question. If I am foolish enough to answer that, I can be guaranteed for some pretty awful vitriol.


You owe them nothing and they're wrong to believe that you do.

Now, if you were to chat many times with him, just for the attention, while knowing that he was interested in taking the relationship further and knowing that you did not, that's bad behavior.

But, it's still on the guy to not allow himself to be put in that position


----------



## NobodySpecial

NextTimeAround said:


> Guys may be completely unaware what their female friend is doing when they're not looking, ie chasing away other women who may have wanted to date him. This is what is known as **** blocking.
> 
> I saw the texts from my husband's so called friend. she offered to drop her boyfriend if he dropped me. She told him ask me how long I had been divorced and how much money I made. she told him to make me pay for stuff on dates while she expected him to pay for everything when they met up (because my husband refused to call it a date.)
> 
> I suspect because there are so many dating guides that tell men that their girlfriend should pay, they don't have a problem asking / expecting that, especially when the two regularly see each other.
> 
> But when you don't see your "friend" often, and you kind of like the *****iness from time to time; you probably justify rolling out the red carpet because "you don't see her that often." a guy can unwittingly start to treat his so called friend who, let's not forget, can still date and have sex with other men, better than he treats the person he calls / considers to be his exclusive partner.
> 
> I best way to handle this is not even allow your partner access to that precipice. This message board is riddled with stories about emotional affairs.


Sounds pretty ****ty. It does not sound like the "friend zone" at all though.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Buddy400 said:


> You owe them nothing and they're wrong to believe that you do.
> 
> Now, if you were to chat many times with him, just for the attention, while knowing that he was interested in taking the relationship further and knowing that you did not, that's bad behavior.
> 
> But, it's still on the guy to not allow himself to be put in that position


or only chat with him in front of other women so that they will lose interest......


----------



## NextTimeAround

NobodySpecial said:


> Sounds pretty ****ty. It does not sound like the "friend zone" at all though.


what does the "friendzone" mean to you? And what would call what I just described?


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> Why would anyone "date" if all they wanted was to get laid? Duh. It must be all her fault that all someone wanted was to get laid and they played some stupid game to get there.


With some women, it might be necessary to "date" her in order to get laid.

If the dating isn't necessary to get laid, most guys will happily pass on the date part.


----------



## NobodySpecial

NextTimeAround said:


> what does the "friendzone" mean to you?


I have seen it used many, many times as I mentioned in the OP. "So a man is interested in a woman. The woman is not romantically interested in the man. The woman is seen as putting the man in the "friend zone" as some sort of malicious act that she should not do."



> And what would call what I just described?


Um. The woman is an evil *****?


----------



## NextTimeAround

NobodySpecial said:


> I know for a fact that among my best male friends that they know the consequences of having sex with me and thus do not. Cuz, being friends, we talk. I know it is foreign concept, but not all guys think exclusively with their ****s.


I dated a guy for 2 years after my divorce. We had a nasty break up ..... Thank goodness. He cam back around 2 years later talking about seeing each but just a friends.

I immediately turned him down. I knew what that would look like including phone calls to my parents that I am stringing him along. 

he may have thought he had the upper hand having the ears of my parents while we were dating. But that lack of boundaries worked against him later on.


----------



## NextTimeAround

NobodySpecial said:


> I have seen it used many, many times as I mentioned in the OP. "So a man is interested in a woman. The woman is not romantically interested in the man. The woman is seen as putting the man in the "friend zone" as some sort of malicious act that she should not do."
> 
> 
> 
> Um. The woman is an evil *****?


yeah, I agree there. But some people buy into this. My husband tried to justify it by saying don't friends always give each other advice. when I was younger that would have discombobulate me, but these days I understand how important it is to put the brakes on certain aspects of relationships. 

So my attitude now is quite simply, if you need a woman around to advise you, then may be we're not right for each other. When I presented this attitude to my husband, he dumped her immediately.

At that time I was on a message that 100% women. You would not believe the scorn that I stirred up there. There a lot of women who would love to have friendzoned guys around. Who else is going to give you free meals and attention when your dance cards are empty.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> I have seen it used many, many times as I mentioned in the OP. "So a man is interested in a woman. The woman is not romantically interested in the man. The woman is seen as putting the man in the "friend zone" as some sort of malicious act that she should not do."
> 
> 
> 
> Um. The woman is an evil *****?


I have always seen friendzone as a variant on the whole knowing within the first few minutes of meeting someone whether or not they would have sex with them. Being friendzoned is being put into the "No" bucket, which is notoriously difficult to ever move out of.


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> I have always seen friendzone as a variant on the whole knowing within the first few minutes of meeting someone whether or not they would have sex with them.


Ew


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> I know for a fact that among my best male friends that they know the consequences of having sex with me and thus do not. Cuz, being friends, we talk. I know it is foreign concept, but not all guys think exclusively with their ****s.


Well, if they would have sex with you but chose not to (so as not to sacrifice the conversational benefits, etc.), then they still consider you as a possible sexual partner; just not in the present circumstances.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> Well, if they would have sex with you but chose not to (so as not to sacrifice the conversational benefits, etc.), then they still consider you as a possible sexual partner; just not in the present circumstances.


I wonder how risking a good friendship changes changes with circumstance?


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder how risking a good friendship changes changes with circumstance?


Because they don't see it as a risk.


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder how risking a good friendship changes changes with circumstance?


Well, they'd probably prefer sex *and* friendship if possible, right?

If limited to one or the other and given a choice, then I think it would depend on which they valued more at the time.

I'm guessing that the male friends you have generally get plenty of sex, so the friendship is more important to them.

A guy with lots of friends and not much sex would have different priorities.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> Well, they'd probably prefer sex *and* friendship if possible, right?
> 
> If limited to one or the other and given a choice, then I think it would depend on which they valued more at the time.
> 
> I'm guessing that the male friends you have generally get plenty of sex, so the friendship is more important to them.
> 
> A guy with lots of friends and not much sex would have different priorities.


And I hear how shallow women are all the time. Nice to know you guys know how all guys think!


----------



## personofinterest

> Now, if you were to chat many times with him, just for the attention, while knowing that he was interested in taking the relationship further and knowing that you did not, that's bad behavior.


First, I think it would be wise for a man NOT to assume he knows a woman's motives for chatting. I am a friendly person (friendly, not flirty). I enjoy repeated conversations wit people I find interesting. That is not an indication of interest, nor is it leading someone one. If I KNEW an interesting person was THAT intent on trying to manufacture something romantic, I would probably just back off. I'd be uncomfortable.

However, I think some men over-estimate a woman's ability to discern that he is "interested." You guys are always talking about how you don't like it when we expect you to read our minds. We can't read yours either.

So why is it so hard to just assume a woman is NOT interested unless she has basically written in lights that she is? Or....just ASK her.


----------



## SunCMars

NobodySpecial said:


> So a man is interested in a woman. The woman is not romantically interested in the man. The woman is seen as putting the man in the "friend zone" as some sort of malicious act that she should not do. What should she do? Some people do believe that men and women can be friends. Some of my best buds are men. *What IS this friend zone thing?*


It means that friend zoned man does not have access to the man-zone.

He is on the other side of the Great Divide.

That man side gets to talk. But, no cooing.
The other side gets to flock, like love birds.

Both sides see their wallet getting lighter. 
One side sees their load getting lighter.
The other side turns blue.

................................................................

That said, I agree that women have every right to friend-zone, whomever they choose.




The Typist II, CC, from his notes.


----------



## Bananapeel

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder how risking a good friendship changes changes with circumstance?


If one person only wants friendship and the other only wants romance, then the friendship is inevitably doomed from the start because any future relationship is predicated on one person giving up what they want. So in actuality, there is no real risk since the friendship is already doomed.


----------



## personofinterest

I'm not sure how to say this in a better way.

Nobody Special, I think you and I don't "get" this because we just don't surround ourselves with men of this particular....."caliber."

In other words, none of my male friends ascribe nefarious intent to women, feel entitled to a woman, or blame womankind for their lack of dating success. Which is basically what the friend zone thing really is all about. Someone in the bowels of the Reddit and PUA cesspool coined this phrase, I am sure.


----------



## bandit.45

personofinterest said:


> First, I think it would be wise for a man NOT to assume he knows a woman's motives for chatting. I am a friendly person (friendly, not flirty). I enjoy repeated conversations wit people I find interesting. That is not an indication of interest, nor is it leading someone one. If I KNEW an interesting person was THAT intent on trying to manufacture something romantic, I would probably just back off. I'd be uncomfortable.
> 
> However, I think some men over-estimate a woman's ability to discern that he is "interested." You guys are always talking about how you don't like it when we expect you to read our minds. We can't read yours either.
> 
> So why is it so hard to just assume a woman is NOT interested unless she has basically written in lights that she is? Or....just ASK her.


Every woman who has been attracted to me has let me know unequivocally that she was attracted to me, usually within the first few times of talking to each other or on the first date. I've never had a hard time knowing a woman's intentions. Woman are not as hard to read as most guys think. What it really boils down to is that some guys, especially young men, are insecure and they either are not paying attention to the obvious signs or they read too much into the signs. I know because I used to be an insecure young man myself and it took me a long time to learn what to look for. 

Now I can tell within the first five minutes of meeting a gal whether or not she is attracted to me. If there is no attraction I don't bother with a follow up.


----------



## minimalME

NobodySpecial said:


> And I hear how shallow women are all the time. Nice to know you guys know how all guys think!


Personally, I don't think this is male/female problem. Either sex can lack character. 

As personofinterest said, if someone wants to know where they stand, all they have to do is ask. Assumptions can be so frustrating.


----------



## personofinterest

bandit.45 said:


> Every woman who has been attracted to me has let me know unequivocally that she was attracted to me, usually within the first few times of talking to each other or on the first date. I've never had a hard time knowing a woman's intentions. Woman are not as hard to read as most guys think. What it really boils down to is that some guys, especially young men, are insecure and they either are not paying attention to the obvious signs or they read too much into the signs. I know because I used to be an insecure young man myself and it took me a long time to learn what to look for.
> 
> Now I can tell within the first five minutes of meeting a gal whether or not she is attracted to me. If there is no attraction I don't bother with a follow up.


It really is something one has to learn. I didn't learn it until the last few years hahaha

The thing about these implications about how friendly a woman "should" be or how much chatting is "too" much and such is that it seems some men expect a woman to manage HIS perception. No. It is not a woman's job to manage every thought a man "might" have because she laughed at his legitimately funny joke.

I have to wonder if this comes from the people who are now coming of age whose helicopter parents managed everything for them, and now they expect potential partners to do the same?

That isn't how it works.


----------



## Faithful Wife

personofinterest said:


> Someone in the bowels of the Reddit and PUA cesspool coined this phrase, I am sure.


Yes, and in fact someone posted an article about the video friend zoned incident written by PUA-crap leader Heartiste on the other friendzone thread. Those guys just can't wait to blame everything on evil women.


----------



## Bananapeel

personofinterest said:


> It really is something one has to learn. I didn't learn it until the last few years hahaha
> 
> The thing about these implications about how friendly a woman "should" be or how much chatting is "too" much and such is that it seems some men expect a woman to manage HIS perception. No. It is not a woman's job to manage every thought a man "might" have because she laughed at his legitimately funny joke.
> 
> I have to wonder if this comes from the people who are now coming of age whose helicopter parents managed everything for them, and now they expect potential partners to do the same?
> 
> That isn't how it works.


Agreed. Except I don't think this is a helicopter parent issue. It's more of an issue with parents not teaching their kids how to properly date and assess interest in potential partners. 



Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, and in fact someone posted an article about the video friend zoned incident written by PUA-crap leader Heartiste on the other friendzone thread. Those guys just can't wait to blame everything on evil women.


There's a major lack of personal accountability to blame these issues on a woman. It takes both people to accept a friend zone relationship, so a woman can't put a guy in the friend zone unless he accepts being there.


----------



## Ikaika

Ok, this thread is in the Men’s club (whatever the hell that really means), and I know that this is mostly about women putting men in the friend zone. 

I know if a guy tells a woman lets just be friends, he really does not mean we can hang out and be friends. I did this once and woman and she went psycho on me. This was in the days pre-cell phone and caller ID. Calls all hours of the night and scratches on my car, etc. 

I get it, no matter what the gender, being friended is a blow. But, somehow the other person has to learn to deal with it. Sometimes there are just things that don’t attract you to that person. It is what it is. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## minimalME

Bananapeel said:


> It's more of an issue with parents not teaching their kids how to properly date and assess interest in potential partners.


Considering that so many of the men who post on this site require quick sex when dating (or the woman is considered dumpable), I'd _love_ to hear how they teach their daughters to 'properly date and assess interest'.


----------



## Bananapeel

If I had a daughter I'd be able to tell you for sure. But it would probably be a similar variant of what I tell my boys: 

1. Advocate for what you want and if you aren't getting it then move on
2. There are lots of people to date so if one doesn't work out it's better to know early so you don't waste your time on them
3. You don't owe anyone access to your time, attention, money, or body on a date.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Ikaika said:


> Ok, this thread is in the Men’s club (whatever the hell that really means), and I know that this is mostly about women putting men in the friend zone.
> 
> I know if a guy tells a woman lets just be friends, he really does not mean we can hang out and be friends. I did this *once *and woman and she went psycho on me. This was in the days pre-cell phone and caller ID. Calls all hours of the night and scratches on my car, etc.
> 
> I get it, no matter what the gender, being friended is a blow. But, somehow the other person has to learn to deal with it. Sometimes there are just things that don’t attract you to that person. It is what it is.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


You did this once and extrapolated the results to 59% of the population?


----------



## personofinterest

SpinyNorman said:


> You did this once and extrapolated the results to 59% of the population?


Of course! don't you know we're all a hive mind????


----------



## SpinyNorman

Bananapeel said:


> Agreed. Except I don't think this is a helicopter parent issue. It's more of an issue with parents not teaching their kids how to properly date and assess interest in potential partners.


My parents weren't bad people but if they had had any advice on dating for me when I was a teenager I would have cut off my own foot to get out of listening to it.

I saw a woman I'd asked out when we were teenagers recently and having grown up in a small town our parents knew each other. She surmised our parents might have set the whole thing up and I practically did a spit-take assuring her my parents were never involved in my dating.


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## Ikaika

*Can someone explain &quot;friend zoned&quot; to me, please?*



SpinyNorman said:


> You did this once and extrapolated the results to 59% of the population?




I have no idea what you are referring to, but it was her very reaction as to why I friended her in the first place. Otherwise, when I was single I was not very picky. But, I also was ok with a woman not being into me. Next woman up was my motto in life. 

Crazy is not attractive to me. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## NextTimeAround

The term "friendzone" designates another new fangled kid of relationship that women and men have developed given the fact that we don't need to adhere to any social structure ..... like FB, FWB, and then all these expressions to designate stages of a relationship ie "talking to......" "dating"; "seeing someone....."

I have been on two wrong sides of "friendzone" which explains why I am lukewarm about OSFs, that is:

1. having to deal with women who think that their "friendship / relationship" overrides the relationship he has in marriage....

2. men who claimed that they just want to be friends when they really hoping to buy time.

If I never had a bad experience with OSFs, or maybe just fewer and smaller problems, I might have remained a supporter of them.

Anyone here an enthusiastic supporter of OSFs but can also tell us about a negative experience with it?


----------



## Mr. Nail

Kind of like a book report in school, I read the first and last page and am going to dive in with a few quotes, because I don't have time to read the whole book. 

I have a very negative reaction to the term "Friend zone" When I hear it I go into automatic protect. At the heart of it is this Idea of other sex friends (OSF). So starting there the original question included this:


NobodySpecial said:


> Some people do believe that men and women can be friends. Some of my best buds are men. What IS this friend zone thing?


My first reaction is that if you believe that men and women can be friends without romance, then I can't explain the friend zone to you. In fact I am Not a fan of OSF. Then I hit this:


ConanHub said:


> I've never been "zoned", I've only heard about it and not IRL.


And I'm sitting here sifting through memories and, he's right. I've never been "Friend zoned". I'm as Beta as Conan is Alpha and we butt heads over it all the time. How could I have this in common with him? And the follow up question. I don't believe in OSF, but I have more OSF experience than Friend zone experience. 

Here is the part you are waiting for. This is my definition of Friend Zone, that I have seen IRL. (I have a co-dependent Daughter) A couple going through an amicable, or hopefully amicable, break up, split, divorce . . . and at some point some idiot says "we can still be friends". This is the "friend zone". And this is the reason I have never been Friend zoned. Because I would never take that deal. I have enough self preservation instinct to turn that away. And I'm not alone in this:


minimalME said:


> I can be true friends with a man I'm not attracted to. Otherwise, I stay away.


If there is , or has been, any romantic or sexual interest, then we can't be "just friends". This is why we tell co-parents to only talk about the kids.

Now as to why I can have OSF It is because I have boundaries, like the one I just mentioned. one of my boundaries is that I don't go alone. Another is that all communication between me and any OSF is open to Mrs. Nail. And everyone knows it. The truth is she never checks, but if an OSF crosses a line or makes me feel uncomfortable, I'm going to report it. 

Summary; Friend zone is an inappropriate Other sex friendship. People should be smart enough to avoid them.


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## Cletus

Mr. Nail said:


> Summary; Friend zone is an inappropriate Other sex friendship. People should be smart enough to avoid them.


How can an OSF be inappropriate if neither party is in a committed relationship?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


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## Mr. Nail

Cletus said:


> How can an OSF be inappropriate if neither party is in a committed relationship?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


Thanks for the question as it points to the heart of the issue.

An inappropriate relationship is one based on a dishonesty.
That dishonesty could be the betrayal of a spouse.
That dishonesty could be a hidden agenda (staying close in hopes that sex may become available)
That dishonesty could be fear of loneliness.
That dishonesty could be keeping a partner around as plan B, if the new fling doesn't work out.

These are just some of the dishonesty's that can make a friendship go bad. Most of the situations we hear postulated when the topic of Friend zone comes us should be in this list.


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## NobodySpecial

Bananapeel said:


> If I had a daughter I'd be able to tell you for sure. But it would probably be a similar variant of what I tell my boys:
> 
> 1. Advocate for what you want and if you aren't getting it then move on
> 2. There are lots of people to date so if one doesn't work out it's better to know early so you don't waste your time on them


I don't remember doing this on purpose, but neither of my teens think that having someone too date is specifically a good thing. If it is not a great person to date, not dating is better. Yay!


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## NobodySpecial

Cletus said:


> How can an OSF be inappropriate if neither party is in a committed relationship?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


How can an OSF *friend* be inappropriate for someone who is in a committed relationship?


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## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> And I hear how shallow women are all the time. Nice to know you guys know how all guys think!


I agree that men are shallower than women when it comes to sex.

But, what's shallow? Choosing sex over friendship when you have plenty of friends and little sex?

Not sure why that counts as shallow.

Should non-shallow people always pass on sex in favor of friendship?


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## Wolf1974

Bananapeel said:


> If I had a daughter I'd be able to tell you for sure. But it would probably be a similar variant of what I tell my boys:
> 
> 1. Advocate for what you want and if you aren't getting it then move on
> 2. There are lots of people to date so if one doesn't work out it's better to know early so you don't waste your time on them
> 3. You don't owe anyone access to your time, attention, money, or body on a date.


As a father of two daughters this is spot on advice. The one thing I would add is to date for fun and don’t think about the future. Chances are good you won’t marry who you date in high school nor should you. Not sure my advice would be much different if I had boys.

I have come to believe that in the dating world when you are younger women have more control and later in life favors men. Not scientific research just what my friends and I have experienced both genders.


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## ConanHub

Mr. Nail said:


> Kind of like a book report in school, I read the first and last page and am going to dive in with a few quotes, because I don't have time to read the whole book.
> 
> I have a very negative reaction to the term "Friend zone" When I hear it I go into automatic protect. At the heart of it is this Idea of other sex friends (OSF). So starting there the original question included this:
> 
> My first reaction is that if you believe that men and women can be friends without romance, then I can't explain the friend zone to you. In fact I am Not a fan of OSF. Then I hit this:
> 
> 
> And I'm sitting here sifting through memories and, he's right. I've never been "Friend zoned". I'm as Beta as Conan is Alpha and we butt heads over it all the time. How could I have this in common with him? And the follow up question. I don't believe in OSF, but I have more OSF experience than Friend zone experience.
> 
> Here is the part you are waiting for. This is my definition of Friend Zone, that I have seen IRL. (I have a co-dependent Daughter) A couple going through an amicable, or hopefully amicable, break up, split, divorce . . . and at some point some idiot says "we can still be friends". This is the "friend zone". And this is the reason I have never been Friend zoned. Because I would never take that deal. I have enough self preservation instinct to turn that away. And I'm not alone in this:
> 
> If there is , or has been, any romantic or sexual interest, then we can't be "just friends". This is why we tell co-parents to only talk about the kids.
> 
> Now as to why I can have OSF It is because I have boundaries, like the one I just mentioned. one of my boundaries is that I don't go alone. Another is that all communication between me and any OSF is open to Mrs. Nail. And everyone knows it. The truth is she never checks, but if an OSF crosses a line or makes me feel uncomfortable, I'm going to report it.
> 
> Summary; Friend zone is an inappropriate Other sex friendship. People should be smart enough to avoid them.


Interesting break down. I'm going to think about it for a while but I don't believe I can disagree, at least with your conclusion.


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## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> I agree that men are shallower than women when it comes to sex.
> 
> But, what's shallow? Choosing sex over friendship when you have plenty of friends and little sex?
> 
> Not sure why that counts as shallow.
> 
> Should non-shallow people always pass on sex in favor of friendship?


I would be disappointed if someone who was awesome only saw me as a sex bot. I don't value friendship for quantity but quality.

ETA: It makes no difference either way. If someone wants sex, then go for that. Kind of off topic for the friend zone thing. Still not seeing the bad behavior that this term seems to imply. So I guess... there it is.


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## Cletus

Mr. Nail said:


> These are just some of the dishonesty's that can make a friendship go bad. Most of the situations we hear postulated when the topic of Friend zone comes us should be in this list.


My view of the Friend Zone is -

Noun: A relationship in which one party cannot become a romantic interest of the other party, even if said party would like to escalate the relationship 

And

Verb: -ed, the act of being placed in the Friend Zone, either by actions of the first party or circumstance.

There need be no ill intent or deception by the party of the second part. If no one is deceived, there can be no dishonesty. One can be in the friend zone and be perfectly content there - we simply shorten the term to "friend" on the understanding that one party is unlikely to ever develop feelings for the other.

Trying to or wishing to get out of the zone is not a prerequisite to being in the zone, is it?

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## Cletus

NobodySpecial said:


> How can an OSF *friend* be inappropriate for someone who is in a committed relationship?


They can't in my opinion, but surely you've read the threads around here with spouses who make a no OSF mandatory boundary for a married couple. 

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## personofinterest

In the context of the OP, I think the whole friend zoning thing is that idea that someone gets mad when the object of their affection doesn't return the feeling. And instead of being a grownup and realizing not everyone will be into you, they manufacture some nefarious slight so they can blame said object of affection. It's basically a renamed temper tantrum.

Opposite sex friends is a different topic. I never really had close male friends, as in being my primary confidante. Those were always women. I had male acquaintances and larger group friends. I might have occasionally asked them dating advice to get a male perspective. But generally, especially when I was younger, if I thought enough of a guy to want to be close to him, there was a romantic interest there too. I was usually the girl that GOT "friend zoned." Difference was, I didn't think they were evil just because they weren't into me romantically. Life happens.

I have male acquaintances now. But my only real male friend is my best friend - my hubby.


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## Personal

NobodySpecial said:


> So a man is interested in a woman. The woman is not romantically interested in the man. The woman is seen as putting the man in the "friend zone" as some sort of malicious act that she should not do. What should she do? Some people do believe that men and women can be friends. Some of my best buds are men. What IS this friend zone thing?


It applies to women as well.

A few months into my separation from my ex-wife pending the required wait time for divorce. I recall an attractive Portuguese woman who kept asking me to go out with her and hang out with her. Which I did yet I had no romantic interest in her (since she had one characteristic that would grate on me), so early on I declined an offer of sexual intimacy with her.

Yet she was apparently happy to be friends etc, until we were out one day about a year later after I was divorced. When she blew up at me, asking if she was wasting her time, declaring that I was stringing her along. Despite the fact I made it clear to her earlier, that I was not wanting her like that. Plus during that time I had other sexual partners, all while she was the one always asking me out and I was not asking her out.

So I apparently friend zoned this woman albeit unintentionally, and as I found out she didn't like that.

As to being friends I agree with you that men and women can be fine friends, in fact one of my longest friendships to date (which started at the same time as the Portuguese woman) is an English woman who I was interested in sexually and said so. Yet she turned me down which is fine she can't help who she is or isn't attracted to. Anyway we've kept in touch and still catch up and go out together from time to time. I never felt friend zoned, we're just friends.


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## NextTimeAround

Personal said:


> Yet she was apparently happy to be friends etc, until we were out one day about a year later after I was divorced. When she blew up at me, asking if she was wasting her time, declaring that I was stringing her along. Despite the fact I made it clear to her earlier, that I was not wanting her like that. Plus during that time I had other sexual partners, all while she was the one always asking me out and I was not asking her out.


This is one of the main reasons why I don't believe that OSFs are frequently possible. To avoid blow ups like that, I try to be more pro active. If I have the feeling that the guy is trying to buy time under the guise of friendship, I will turn it down.

It's good to be pro active generally. My exH suggested that we could be friends. All I could see was someone who would expect me to invite him around my friends so that he could cherry pick (as he had done while we were married.) I could also imagine other types of drama which is why I avoided at first subconsciously, contact with anyone who said that they were still friends with him.

There are a lot of ways to screw someone under the guise of friendship.


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## SpinyNorman

*Re: Can someone explain &quot;friend zoned&quot; to me, please?*



Ikaika said:


> I have no idea what you are referring to, but it was her very reaction as to why I friended her in the first place. Otherwise, when I was single I was not very picky. But, I also was ok with a woman not being into me. Next woman up was my motto in life.
> 
> Crazy is not attractive to me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post but I thought you were saying your bad experience w/ one woman led you to conclude this can't be done w/ any woman(women are about 59% of the USA population.)


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## SpinyNorman

NextTimeAround said:


> This is one of the main reasons why I don't believe that OSFs are frequently possible. To avoid blow ups like that, I try to be more pro active. If I have the feeling that the guy is trying to buy time under the guise of friendship, I will turn it down.
> 
> It's good to be pro active generally. My exH suggested that we could be friends. All I could see was someone who would expect me to invite him around my friends so that he could cherry pick (as he had done while we were married.) I could also imagine other types of drama which is why I avoided at first subconsciously, contact with anyone who said that they were still friends with him.
> 
> There are a lot of ways to screw someone under the guise of friendship.


I don't think I can name a single type of human relationship under whose guise someone has not been screwed.


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## Ikaika

*Re: Can someone explain &quot;friend zoned&quot; to me, please?*



SpinyNorman said:


> Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post but I thought you were saying your bad experience w/ one woman led you to conclude this can't be done w/ any woman(women are about 59% of the USA population.)




Yes, I believe you misinterpreted my initial post. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Beach123

Friend Zone = nice person but I can't imagine kissing them or having sex with them.

It's not a hard concept - what don't you understand about that?


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## BobSimmons

NobodySpecial said:


> What does "strung along" and "hint" look like? I mean if I call someone and say want to go see a movie, am I stringing them along?


I agree. Strung along is too broad a term. It implies a woman cannot be friendly or do things with a man in case he reads it wrong.

Sometimes I think just being blunt is the way to go. The friendzone thing appears to be women trying to let the guy down gently when there really is no need to be.

Can you imagine a man trying to be friends with another man who hates him? Do you think the other man would let him down gently?

If you're not interested tell him straight up with no mincing of words. If he decides he's cool with that, then he can slip into the friendzone all your female and male friends occupy.


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## BobSimmons

Personal said:


> Yet she was apparently happy to be friends





Personal said:


> declaring that I was stringing her along.


The two seem contradictory, no?



Personal said:


> So I apparently friend zoned this woman albeit unintentionally.


No you didn't. You made it clear. But you continued to go out with her even though you knew she was a pushy character who was not interested in being your friend.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

The point is to not get friend zoned until after you have sex with them.


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## Laurentium

NobodySpecial said:


> So a man is interested in a woman. The woman is not romantically interested in the man. The woman is seen as putting the man in the "friend zone" as some sort of malicious act that she should not do. What should she do? Some people do believe that men and women can be friends. Some of my best buds are men. What IS this friend zone thing?


Having read your comments throughout the thread, I am a bit confused as to whether you're saying
-- you don't know what situation the term describes 
-- you do know, but you don't think it ever happens
-- you know it happens, but you don't think it's malicious or wrong. 
-- or some combination thereof....

My answer to "what should she do" is "that's difficult", some human situations are difficult, she needs to be both clear and tactful, and that's a difficult mixture, with someone who isn't liking what they are hearing. 

I think there is a huge fallacy out there, which may explain your having been shouted at, that if something you do leads to the other person feeling bad, then what you did was therefore wrong. It's a bit like the "safe spaces" fallacy. The men you described need "safe spaces" where they won't be "triggered" by hearing that you don't think of them "that way".


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## NobodySpecial

Laurentium said:


> Having read your comments throughout the thread, I am a bit confused as to whether you're saying
> -- you don't know what situation the term describes
> -- you do know, but you don't think it ever happens
> -- you know it happens, but you don't think it's malicious or wrong.


I wanted to know what other people thought of the malice. Why is it viewed as malicious.


----------



## Personal

BobSimmons said:


> The two seem contradictory, no?


They aren't contradictory. She was happy for circa a year, until to my surprise she declared she wasn't.





BobSimmons said:


> No you didn't. You made it clear. But you continued to go out with her even though you knew she was a pushy character who was not interested in being your friend.


Actually I did make it clear with words to the effect of. I'm sorry I am not interested in you romantically at all, when she asked if I wanted to be her boyfriend.

Before that I also turned down an opportunity of sexual intimacy with her, which saw her later ask me if I wanted to be her boyfriend.

Plus before that I also tried to passively scare her off (which didn't work), by telling her that I was still married though separated and was the parent of a one year old child all while I was 21 years old (which was the case at the time).

I figured sharing with her that I had a cupboard full of baggage, it would scare off any woman. As it turned out, up to and including my now wife, it gave a limited number pause. Yet it didn't seem to dissuade any of the ones who wanted to be with me.

As to her being a pushy character, she was anything but that. I find it somewhat amusing that you say she is a pushy character when she wasn't.

In fact until meeting me ,she said she had never asked a guy out before. Which is something that a number of the women who have asked me out, including my wife have said.

As to this idea that I continued dating her, I didn't date her at all. What I did do was sometimes go out with her as a friend. While for a little while I sometimes walked with her to a train or bus station while I was doing a course with her.

At no point did I lead her on, or tell her I was interested in her that way. If she felt otherwise that was her responsibility, that said I have no doubt that nationality, ethnic and cultural differences played a roll here.

From that experience I became more direct in saying no thanks; I am not interested, or I don't want to or I don't like you that way. Whenever I was asked out on a date or offered sex, by the women I didn't want to be with in that way when they pursued me which was the norm for my dating experience.

At the end of the day, it's okay if people don't want to have sex with someone and or date them, yet are happy to be friends. People can't help who and what turns them on sexually. In fact it is far better to just be friends, than to want to be in a sexual relationship with someone who doesn't find you sexually exciting or pleasurable.

Judging by your response, I wonder if you are a guy who has thought he was friend zoned while dating?


----------



## Personal

NobodySpecial said:


> I wanted to know what other people thought of the malice. Why is it viewed as malicious.


I don't think it's malicious.


----------



## naiveonedave

Personal said:


> I don't think it's malicious.


however, it can be. I have seen it often enough... A woman is friends with a guy, leads him on without being honest. Partly his fault for not seeing it for what it is, but she always offers this glimmer of hope that a dating relationship will happen.


----------



## NobodySpecial

naiveonedave said:


> however, it can be. I have seen it often enough... A woman is friends with a guy, leads him on without being honest. Partly his fault for not seeing it for what it is, but she always offers this glimmer of hope that a dating relationship will happen.


This is where I fall down in my understanding. What does that glimmer of hope look like?


----------



## NextTimeAround

naiveonedave said:


> however, it can be. I have seen it often enough... A woman is friends with a guy, leads him on without being honest. Partly his fault for not seeing it for what it is, but she always offers this glimmer of hope that a dating relationship will happen.


At the same time, this guy who is friendzoned can't get a girlfriend. Partly his fault because he has this friend whom he has allowed to take his over life but HE will not see it that way. He may even bad mouth the women who refuse to date him claiming that they are jealous and insecure due to his female BFF. 

Yes, it's on the guy for not having proper boundaries but it is a lot of agro. These dynamics need to be understood by someone who is / is considering dating the guy. This is why I had reached a point when dating my husband I felt comfortable telling him either she goes or I go and did not feel that there was anything controlling about what I had asked for.

As far as being "friends" with guys,

1. with my ex(English)H, I suspect he wanted to use me to stay connected to the expat community in London and, as I said, cherry pick the friends I bring him in contact with.

2, with ex BF, I suspect he was looking for a opening back into my life and a way to accuse me of "stringing him along" to guilt me back into dating him. Yes, I know, all of us balanced, mentally healthy people here at TAM not only would never do something like that but we don't even know anyone who ever would ..... of course, but there are people out there who will do that.

I bet even in Personal's case, that woman would who thought if she hung out with @Personal enough she would get a boyfriend out of it, probably did everything she could to ruin his reputation after they parted ways. that's how these types operate ....... if they don't outright stalk the person.

This is why it is important to understand friend zoning and when you might be an unwitting participant in it.


----------



## VladDracul

NobodySpecial said:


> This is where I fall down in my understanding. What does that glimmer of hope look like?


Him with the perspective, usually formed in his own mind, that if he hangs in there its going to become romantic. It "looks" like that when he gets turned down for a real date, usually her saying she's already made plans with no rain check, he keeps hanging around like a girlfriend. Some women take advantage of his quest by keeping him around as a gofor and sidekick. The techniques she's uses to do this fosters his formulation of a glimmer of hope. Its an extremely bad investment on his part because 99.6% of the time, these guy don't get any poon tang and are the laughing stock of her all her girlfriends.


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## NobodySpecial

VladDracul said:


> Him with the perspective, usually formed in his own mind, that if he hangs in there its going to become romantic.


I recognize that you are not the one who posted this. But I am replying to " A woman is friends with a guy, leads him on without being honest" where later the poster says SHE is acting in a way to give him a glimmer of hope. SHE is acting in that way. Not him misinterpreting it. That is what I cannot visualize. I tend to be about as subtle as a brick to the head. So maybe it is me. But I don't think so. I have yet to see what this leading on looks like from the standpoint of dishonest behavior.



> It "looks" like that when he gets turned down for a real date, usually her saying she's already made plans with no rain check, he keeps hanging around like a girlfriend. Some women take advantage of his quest by keeping him around as a gofor and sidekick. The techniques she's uses to do this fosters his formulation of a glimmer of hope. Its an extremely bad investment on his part because 99.6% of the time, these guy don't get any poon tang and are the laughing stock of her all her girlfriends.


I do stuff like help my friends so I still don't see what this looks like. If she only calls him to move things, then she sounds like, at worst, a ****ty friend.


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## NextTimeAround

NobodySpecial said:


> I do stuff like help my friends so I still don't see what this looks like. If she only calls him to move things, then she sounds like, at worst, a ****ty friend.


Are you on a mission to expunge this term from common use?

I think it's good to examine this special relationship situation. Maybe for some it will be subtle. but for others it will not.

This is a ****ty relationship but with a twist. It's about someone who is determined that you will not date anyone else as long as they are around. Some people don't figure that out until after years of hanging out with the person. It's about women who use guys because they are still looking "for the one."

It's also, IMO, about men who constantly offer favors to stay in a woman's life, most likely conscious of how needy that woman might be, therefore, knowing full well that it would be hard to turn down things. like money / helping them to find a job / helping them to network (the better to control that person's reputation) / and so on.

there's no question in my mind that if I had accepted ex Bf's offer of friendship, he would have insisted on paying for everything and then accuse me of using him. I avoided that agro completely by avoiding him completely. 

There are other types of relationships / friendships that are ****ty as well ..... in their own unique way.


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## NobodySpecial

NextTimeAround said:


> Are you on a mission to expunge this term from common use?


No. Not like I could. What I genuinely don't get is the people who feel that it is right to consider a yet identified behavior as specifically malicious.



> I think it's good to examine this special relationship situation. Maybe for some it will be subtle. but for others it will not.
> 
> This is a ****ty relationship but with a twist. It's about someone who is determined that you will not date anyone else as long as they are around. Some people don't figure that out until after years of hanging out with the person. It's about women who use guys because they are still looking "for the one."


Oh. Plan B. I have certainly heard of that.


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## personofinterest

NobodySpecial said:


> I recognize that you are not the one who posted this. But I am replying to " A woman is friends with a guy, leads him on without being honest" where later the poster says SHE is acting in a way to give him a glimmer of hope. SHE is acting in that way. Not him misinterpreting it. That is what I cannot visualize. I tend to be about as subtle as a brick to the head. So maybe it is me. But I don't think so. I have yet to see what this leading on looks like from the standpoint of dishonest behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> I do stuff like help my friends so I still don't see what this looks like. If she only calls him to move things, then she sounds like, at worst, a ****ty friend.


Like I said before, this is basically a temper tantrum over not "getting some." It's esoteric and hard to define because it is basically sour grapes. That's why you can't get a read on it.

He's interested, she's not. He isn;t mature enough to just say "well, that's life." It MUST be something wrong with the female.


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## naiveonedave

NobodySpecial said:


> I do stuff like help my friends so I still don't see what this looks like. If she only calls him to move things, then she sounds like, at worst, a ****ty friend.


the problem arises with some women (likely a small minority, but not insignificant number), who basically are users. they give off flirting vibes, act like they want this friendship to be more (turn into a relationship) and want the boy friend (note: intentional not boyfriend), to do favors for them with nothing in return. So the sap thinks he has a chance. He is somewhat creating a covert contract, but the contract is really being driven by the woman and his lack of understanding of where things sit. In the short term, it can be mostly her fault, long term (months out) it comes down to what a particular guy is really willing to do for not much in return.

I see this a lot watching teenagers in my area. Entitled princesses who a very dishonest. Hard convo's with my boys. Talking to other parents about how to teach their boys. Really hard, because teen boys don't want to listen to their parents much.


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## Personal

NextTimeAround said:


> I bet even in Personal's case, that woman would who thought if she hung out with @Personal enough she would get a boyfriend out of it, probably did everything she could to ruin his reputation after they parted ways. that's how these types operate ....... if they don't outright stalk the person.


She did no such thing, in fact she was very nice to me. She just blew up in one moment, as in she got upset when she realised, she had no chance and had invested time with me hoping for that.

Likewise when I met her and I showed brief interest on that first day, until I found something shallow that I didn't like. She had only been in Australia for a few weeks, English wasn't her native language and she was only 19. I don't think she should be painted badly, when her crime was to hope for someone and to be disappointed when those hopes were dashed.

And before this comes up she didn't need to marry anyone to stay in Australia.


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## naiveonedave

personofinterest said:


> Like I said before, this is basically a temper tantrum over not "getting some." It's esoteric and hard to define because it is basically sour grapes. That's why you can't get a read on it.
> 
> He's interested, she's not. He isn;t mature enough to just say "well, that's life." It MUST be something wrong with the female.


except, of course, when said female is being dishonest, out right lying, flirting and hinting at the friendship becoming more, but then backs out later. Of course that is all on the man, sheesh.


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## NobodySpecial

naiveonedave said:


> the problem arises with some women (likely a small minority, but not insignificant number), who basically are users. they _give off flirting vibes_, _act like _they want this friendship to be more (turn into a relationship) and want the boy friend (note: intentional not boyfriend), to do favors for them with nothing in return.


The one thing you seem unwilling to answer is what that looks like.


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## personofinterest

> they give off flirting vibes


Again, can you objectively define this? Some guys think a smile is flirting. Some think touching your arm is some sure sign of interest.

Basically, if she isn;t making out with or sleeping with you, assume you're a friend. It's not that hard.


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## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> This is where I fall down in my understanding. What does that glimmer of hope look like?


The girl gets dumped, cheated on, beaten, what have you, and she reaches out to her guy friend for a shoulder to cry on. He has had a crush on her for ages, and is oh so supportive. Building her up, telling her how wonderful she is, making sure she is taken care of, maybe brings her food, makes her dinner, maybe even vacuums her floor. Doing all the things that popular culture tell him women want in a partner, that they find attractive. She tells him how wonderful he is, such a great person, and that any woman will be lucky to have him.


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## personofinterest

naiveonedave said:


> except, of course, when said female is being dishonest, out right lying, flirting and hinting at the friendship becoming more, but then backs out later. Of course that is all on the man, sheesh.


Again, what IS flirting objectively? What does "hinting" mean? Give us all a list of behaviors to avoid.


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## naiveonedave

NobodySpecial said:


> The one thing you seem unwilling to answer is what that looks like.


I don't know why you can't see it or figure this out?
Her: huggy, doing the things girls do to flirt, having deep convo's, etc. All leading on behavior. then when asked out, sorry busy Friday, but maybe some other time, of course that time never comes.


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## personofinterest

samyeagar said:


> The girl gets dumped, cheated on, beaten, what have you, and she reaches out to her guy friend for a shoulder to cry on. He has had a crush on her for ages, and is oh so supportive. Building her up, telling her how wonderful she is, making sure she is taken care of, maybe brings her food, makes her dinner, maybe even vacuums her floor. Doing all the things that popular culture tell him women want in a partner, that they find attractive. She tells him how wonderful he is, such a great person, and that any woman will be lucky to have him.


So you are certain that every time a woman reaches out to someone who she believes to be a friend she is leading him on.


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## NextTimeAround

personofinterest said:


> *Like I said before, this is basically a temper tantrum over not "getting some."* It's esoteric and hard to define because it is basically sour grapes. That's why you can't get a read on it.
> 
> He's interested, she's not. He isn;t mature enough to just say "well, that's life." It MUST be something wrong with the female.


Not always. Some guys will not be happy being relegated to FB or FWB as well.


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## minimalME

NobodySpecial said:


> No. Not like I could. *What I genuinely don't get* is the people who feel that it is right to consider a yet identified behavior as specifically malicious.


What I genuinely don't get...

Maybe this was discussed earlier, but have these men _asked the women out_??? 

Have their intentions been made _verbally_ clear? And then she responds by saying, 'no let's just be friends'?

Or - are these men making assumptions? Being vague? Being coy? Hanging out with the hope that maybe she'll ask him out?


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## NextTimeAround

personofinterest said:


> Again, what IS flirting objectively? What does "hinting" mean? Give us all a list of behaviors to avoid.


my husband's friend said that she would dump her boyfriend for my husband if he would dump me first. Is that hint enough?


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## NobodySpecial

naiveonedave said:


> I don't know why you can't see it or figure this out?
> Her: huggy, doing the things girls do to flirt, having deep convo's, etc. All leading on behavior. then when asked out, sorry busy Friday, but maybe some other time, of course that time never comes.


Huh. Those sound like things I do with all my friends. Crazy, but we talk about things! And don't hang out every day. The sum sounds like a covert contract before any of the actual contract has been signed. I guess I am out of the malice camp. I asked.


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## NobodySpecial

personofinterest said:


> Again, can you objectively define this? Some guys think a smile is flirting. Some think touching your arm is some sure sign of interest.


One poster on another thread thought that throwing and arm around was "all over him". Just weird.


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## samyeagar

personofinterest said:


> So you are certain that every time a woman reaches out to someone who she believes to be a friend she is leading him on.


Really? Come on now, she asked for an example of what it looked like. I gave an example of what it looked like. Not sure how you arrived at me making a blanket applies to every situation statement.


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## naiveonedave

NobodySpecial said:


> Huh. Those sound like things I do with all my friends. Crazy, but we talk about things! And don't hang out every day. The sum sounds like a covert contract before any of the actual contract has been signed. I guess I am out of the malice camp. I asked.


he is creating a covert contract, though he is thinking it isn't based on her actions. She is telling him by everything she does she is interested, until the rubber meets the road and she isn't. I see it all the time. It is malice, as she is getting him to do stuff, based on lies. And she knows she is doing it. Most of the time, guys bail fairly quickly, as they figure it out. Younger or naïve guys, not so much.


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## NextTimeAround

You should also read the complaints made in the threads about Emotional Affairs. The grooming that goes on in those relationship are similar to those who are on the intended side of friendzoning.


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## naiveonedave

minimalME said:


> What I genuinely don't get...
> 
> Maybe this was discussed earlier, but have these men _asked the women out_???
> 
> Have their intentions been made _verbally_ clear? And then she responds by saying, 'no let's just be friends'?
> 
> Or - are these men making assumptions? Being vague? Being coy? Hanging out with the hope that maybe she'll ask him out?


sometimes they ask them out and get the "I can't on Friday, some other time?", followed by flirting, him ending up doing something for her in hopes it will facilitate the some other time date, which never comes. That is malicious on her part.

Sometimes they do your "Or", which is all the man.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

naiveonedave said:


> he is creating a covert contract, though he is thinking it isn't based on her actions. She is telling him by everything she does she is interested, until the rubber meets the road and she isn't. I see it all the time. It is malice, as she is getting him to do stuff, based on lies. And she knows she is doing it. Most of the time, guys bail fairly quickly, as they figure it out. Younger or naïve guys, not so much.


What you're describing is dishonest, unethical, selfish, etc. But it is not necessarily "malice." In what you describe, the woman is using the man. But that doesn't require malice, the definition of which includes spite or malevolence. Human beings can use each other without any actual ill will. They're simply taking advantage of... without hate.... usually without any emotion at all. It's just business, so to speak. Bad, but not borne of hatred or a desire to see the other suffer. It's just a purely selfish focus on their own interests with no concern for the other's interest. Malice implies an actual interest in the other's interest, specifically to cause harm. In this case, the potential pain is just a by-product, not the underlying goal. 

Sure, the end result may be the same. But bad things happen all the time without someone deliberately intending for it to go down that way.


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## NextTimeAround

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> What you're describing is dishonest, unethical, selfish, etc. But it is not necessarily "malice." In what you describe, the woman is using the man. But that doesn't require malice, the definition of which includes spite or malevolence. Human beings can use each other without any actual ill will. They're simply taking advantage of... without hate.... usually without any emotion at all. It's just business, so to speak. Bad, but not borne of hatred or a desire to see the other suffer. It's just a purely selfish focus on their own interests with no concern for the other's interest. *Malice implies an actual interest in the other's interest, specifically to cause harm. *In this case, the potential pain is just a by-product, not the underlying goal.
> 
> Sure, the end result may be the same. But bad things happen all the time without someone deliberately intending for it to go down that way.


Some people do get off on knowing that they can control / influence heavily someone else's life. 

thnk of Camilla Parker-Bowls who "approved" of Prince Charles' marriage to Princess Di.


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## wilson

naiveonedave said:


> he is creating a covert contract, though he is thinking it isn't based on her actions. She is telling him by everything she does she is interested, until the rubber meets the road and she isn't. I see it all the time. It is malice, as she is getting him to do stuff, based on lies. And she knows she is doing it. Most of the time, guys bail fairly quickly, as they figure it out. Younger or naïve guys, not so much.


Most of the blame falls on the guy in these kinds of cases. I think many times, the women aren't being malicious. They truly think he's just being sweet by doing all that stuff. But from the outside, we can see that this is an unhealthy relationship. Whether she knows it or not, she's taking advantage of his desire. I'm sure she loves having someone who's always so attentive, available, willing to pay for stuff, etc. But it's not healthy for him and she is getting a warped perception of men.

Here's some examples of guys in the friendzone: 20 Guys So Deep in the Friendzone That it Physically Hurts - FAIL Blog - Funny Fails

Essentially they are like: "Isn't Joe wonderful! He showed up on valentines with all these gifts and is taking me out to an expensive dinner and show. What a great friend! I wish I could meet a guy like him I wanted to date!"

The guy is deluded and should snap out of it, but the woman would have to be naive or willfully ignorant to not clue in to his motivations. If she knows he's pining for her and she's using that to her advantage, then she's malicious.


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## uhtred

Human communication includes a lot of non-verbal signals. This can cause all sorts of problems from questions of consensuality to miscommunication in "friend zones" etc. 

Its tricky because some people will *claim* miscommunication in order to defend their actions when they know damn well what was intended. Ad some will give non-verbal signals knowing full well what they are doing but claiming otherwise. Other people are honestly bad at reading non-verbal communication, or at providing clear non-verbal communication. 

I would like to believe that most of these are honest mistakes, but that may not be true.


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## Personal

naiveonedave said:


> I don't know why you can't see it or figure this out?
> Her: huggy, doing the things girls do to flirt, having deep convo's, etc. All leading on behavior. then when asked out, sorry busy Friday, but maybe some other time, of course that time never comes.


Having deep conversations and being huggy, has never read as being flirty or sexual to me.

Having a woman use sexual innuendo in a very direct way not just as banter alone is flirting. Having a woman tell you how beautiful your face or eyes are while gazing into you is flirting. Having a woman smile at you almost uncontrollably, while wanting to be close to you and talk to you in an excited way is a hint as well.

Having a woman tell you, invite you or ask you to kiss them is a giveaway. Or having them gazing into your eyes and telling you how handsome or beautiful you are can be telling.

It's funny what you call leading on, to me is just being friendly and nothing more. Plus in my experience a woman who is wanting to hug you isn't generally wanting you sexually at all. It's simply called being friendly.

If a woman has some sort of visceral sexual attraction for a man, they will often make that clear. Which is seldom if ever done by hugging, some blah, blah, or telling them they would be a great catch for someone else.


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## Personal

samyeagar said:


> The girl gets dumped, cheated on, beaten, what have you, and she reaches out to her guy friend for a shoulder to cry on. He has had a crush on her for ages, and is oh so supportive. Building her up, telling her how wonderful she is, making sure she is taken care of, maybe brings her food, makes her dinner, maybe even vacuums her floor. Doing all the things that popular culture tell him women want in a partner, that they find attractive. She tells him how wonderful he is, such a great person, and that any woman will be lucky to have him.


Even in High School I understood that when a then girl and later woman tells you the following. That you're wonderful and a great person, yadda, yadda, they probably weren't wanting you sexually.

Since the ones that wanted me sexually would say; you can kiss me, kiss me, want to be my boyfriend, want to go on a date, want to have sex, you have the most beautiful eyes and the like. Or they would gaze into my eyes and I would feel the tingles the air was thick like butter. Plus they often wouldn't stop smiling, and sat close and their mouths would subtly gape a little and all the rest.

While hugging meant nothing, in fact a hug was pretty much a nice way of saying no thanks, and the same applied to kisses on cheeks and all the rest.

As to reaching out for a shoulder to cry on, I can think of only 4 females who did that with me. Two were in High School and I didn't think to go there since, der... there were no tingles from me or them. While one adult was a school friend and we were just friends. While the other adult was also a friend, yet I hadn't seen her for a while and she asked her friend to call me to come over. And we did go there sexually for a while at her instigation till I stopped it.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

wilson said:


> Most of the blame falls on the guy in these kinds of cases. I think many times, the women aren't being malicious. They truly think he's just being sweet by doing all that stuff. But from the outside, we can see that this is an unhealthy relationship. Whether she knows it or not, she's taking advantage of his desire. I'm sure she loves having someone who's always so attentive, available, willing to pay for stuff, etc. But it's not healthy for him and she is getting a warped perception of men.
> 
> Here's some examples of guys in the friendzone: 20 Guys So Deep in the Friendzone That it Physically Hurts - FAIL Blog - Funny Fails
> 
> Essentially they are like: "Isn't Joe wonderful! He showed up on valentines with all these gifts and is taking me out to an expensive dinner and show. What a great friend! I wish I could meet a guy like him I wanted to date!"
> 
> The guy is deluded and should snap out of it, but the woman would have to be naive or willfully ignorant to not clue in to his motivations. If she knows he's pining for her and she's using that to her advantage, then she's malicious.


Actual dating with flowers and expensive restaurants in the friend zone is rare. The friend zone usually has far less active romantic behavior. 

But even in this case, it's really just dismissive, not malicious. She has blatant disregard for his feelings, but that is still not the same thing as actively wishing him harm. While she knows he may get hurt, she does not actively wish it; in fact she'd be perfectly okay with it if he never got hurt; that's what distinguishes disregard from genuine malice.


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## personofinterest

naiveonedave said:


> he is creating a covert contract, though he is thinking it isn't based on her actions. She is telling him by everything she does she is interested, until the rubber meets the road and she isn't. I see it all the time. It is malice, as she is getting him to do stuff, based on lies. And she knows she is doing it. Most of the time, guys bail fairly quickly, as they figure it out. Younger or naïve guys, not so much.


It must be sad thinking so little of an entire gender.


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## naiveonedave

Personal said:


> Having deep conversations and being huggy, has never read as being flirty or sexual to me.
> 
> Having a woman use sexual innuendo in a very direct way not just as banter alone is flirting. Having a woman tell you how beautiful your face or eyes are while gazing into you is flirting. Having a woman smile at you almost uncontrollably, while wanting to be close to you and talk to you in an excited way is a hint as well.
> 
> Having a woman tell you, invite you or ask you to kiss them is a giveaway. Or having them gazing into your eyes and telling you how handsome or beautiful you are can be telling.
> 
> It's funny what you call leading on, to me is just being friendly and nothing more. Plus in my experience a woman who is wanting to hug you isn't generally wanting you sexually at all. It's simply called being friendly.
> 
> If a woman has some sort of visceral sexual attraction for a man, they will often make that clear. Which is seldom if ever done by hugging, some blah, blah, or telling them they would be a great catch for someone else.


In my experience, some women use this to get men to do stuff for them. Happens all the time. Non-verbal communication is actually stronger than verbal. And in the situation I describe, the non-verbal communication is incredibly strong that she is 'available' for more than friendship. 

I get that you don't want this to be true and to blame friendzone only on men being stupid, naïve or what not. I just see it as some of that (mostly that) and some of what I describe. Women having been using the allure of potential sex to get men to do their bidding since the dawn of time, part of friendzoning is just a modern version of this...


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## naiveonedave

personofinterest said:


> It must be sad thinking so little of an entire gender.


I don't think that of the gender, just some of it. PLEASE READ MY POSTS MORE CLEAR, before you go down this road. In the other thread, I repeatedly called it independent of gender, but you want to make to a woman hater. Same here. Some fraction of women are malicious in friendzong, small number, but >0. And men clearly are responsible for staying in the friendzone longer than months.


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## NextTimeAround

This is the big difference that I see between men and women:

1. Women operate in a de jure world: that is, when we say something, then it is so. That means, when Isay, we ae just friends, then hanging out with a guy; spending the night on his couch; accepting that he pays for my dinner does not change the nature of our relationship.

2. whereas men operate in a de facto world, that is, the way you behave, the choices that you make overrides anything that you have said. So a woman engaging in the above mentioned activities -- no matter what she has said or what the guy has verbally agreed to -- she is behaving like a girlfriend and the expectations will continue from there.


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## NextTimeAround

naiveonedave said:


> I don't think that of the gender, just some of it. PLEASE READ MY POSTS MORE CLEAR, before you go down this road. In the other thread, I repeatedly called it independent of gender, but you want to make to a woman hater. Same here. Some fraction of women are malicious in friendzong, small number, but >0. And men clearly are responsible for staying in the friendzone longer than months.


Perhaps you and I have had to deal with the Friendzone thing enough that we have had to think this thing through. 

I would like to think that people need to think for themselves and take responsibility for the choices that they make, but that doesn't always happen. 

Just like the term fog had to be created to label things that we don't understand in matters of adultery, the fog is quite useful in trying to understand the choices people make in friendzone relationships. 

What I do know from my own experiences is that 
1. a guy who is just a friend can **** block other men so when I was looking for a boyfriend, my time was being wasted
2. the guys with whom I agreed to be just friends with became angry after a time when it was clear that I took what they said quite literally. that is, treating him like a girlfriend while I still openly looked for men to date.


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## wilson

I think one core aspect to the friendzone is due to the difference in how men and women view others as sexual partners. In general, men have sexual thoughts or would consider sex with most women in their lives. For some women it might be a very small consideration, but it's still there. But women often seem to have stronger divisions between who they see as a friend versus who they see as a sexual partner. This is similar to how you can't imagine a sibling as a sexual partner. Once a woman sees a man like this (in the friendzone), it is almost impossible to change.

That's not the same thing as when men and women are friends. Being friends is not the same thing as being in the friendzone. Friendzone is specifically when the woman does not and will not see the man as a sexual partner. Him trying to become a romantic partner would be as successful as her brother trying to do the same.

It would be good if there was another term for a man who was futilely trying to get out of the friendzone. Being in the friendzone itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there should be a way to indicate that the guy is being foolish and being taken advantage of when he continually tries to win her over. So rather than saying that guys like this are in the friendzone, we should say that those guys are deluded or something like that. It's like they keep hoping that they'll be able to date their sister if they try hard enough.


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## Buddy400

personofinterest said:


> So you are certain that every time a woman reaches out to someone who she believes to be a friend she is leading him on.


My sons, while in junior high / high school, consistently regarded girls were very extroverted and "huggy" to be possibly interested in them as "boyfriend" material.

I had to point out to them that this was just the nature of many extroverted girls and indicated nothing about their attraction to them; there's just as good a chance that the quite girl in the back of the room was interested in them.

This wasn't the girl's fault, it was a lack of knowledge on my son's parts.

My job was to point this sort of stuff out to them.


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## uhtred

Another complexity is that the "friend zone" does not have very sharp boundaries. I have female friends, who are just fiends, but there is a little bit of light flirting. For most people this can work comfortably for everyone involved, but it can lead to misunderstandings.


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## Mr. Nail

This thread has been so mind opening. I'm starting to see the whole friend zone thing as a translation error.
Men and women friend (verb) in different ways. Men and women view sex in different ways. And the collision of these 4 different things often results in confusion and hurt feelings. 
I don't have time to type all of this out right now but Wow it is a huge revelation and It makes the world make more sense when I put it in this framework.


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## ReformedHubby

I recently rejoined this whole dating scene after separation and have had one somewhat serious relationship, and am just starting to casually date someone else, but we seem to really like each other. Both of these women are knockouts and both of them have a LOT of guys in the friendzone. Neither one of them wanted or sought the attention. There is no malice, they just happen to be very attractive and have VERY outgoing and friendly personalities. In all instances they flat out told all these guys basically, ""you're cool, but I am not attracted to you". But....because they occasionally answer a text/facebook message and are nice to these guys when they see them. The guys think that they still have a chance. I think if both of them were more guarded maybe these guys wouldn't be able to create an illusion in their heads about their chances.

But is it really a woman's responsibility to stop being nice to men just because some men get the wrong idea and can't let it go? Then we'd be saying she is stuck up. They can't win. Its up to the guy to move on, and its not the woman's fault if she has told him of his status. Of course there are woman who use guys like that, and that is even sadder to watch, because the men know their status and still do it anyway. Sorry...but none of these friend zoned guys get any sympathy from me. No one can have anyone they want. These guys have a sense of entitlement just because they would treat a woman well. 

I hate to say this...but these guys also tend to swing for the fences and become infatuated with women that are waaaaaay out of their league. Nothing wrong with asking someone out that is significantly more attractive than you, but....if she friend zones you move on. Don't hang around for years expecting her to realize you were the one all along. All you will do is solidify your role as Duckie in her life (points to anyone that gets this reference). If she had married Duckie he would have been on TAM posting about his sexless marriage.


----------



## Ikaika

ReformedHubby said:


> I recently rejoined this whole dating scene after separation and have had one somewhat serious relationship, and am just starting to casually date someone else, but we seem to really like each other. Both of these women are knockouts and both of them have a LOT of guys in the friendzone. Neither one of them wanted or sought the attention. There is no malice, they just happen to be very attractive and have VERY outgoing and friendly personalities. In all instances they flat out told all these guys basically, ""you're cool, but I am not attracted to you". But....because they occasionally answer a text/facebook message and are nice to these guys when they see them. The guys think that they still have a chance. I think if both of them were more guarded maybe these guys wouldn't be able to create an illusion in their heads about their chances.
> 
> 
> 
> But is it really a woman's responsibility to stop being nice to men just because some men get the wrong idea and can't let it go? Then we'd be saying she is stuck up. They can't win. Its up to the guy to move on, and its not the woman's fault if she has told him of his status. Of course there are woman who use guys like that, and that is even sadder to watch, because the men know their status and still do it anyway. Sorry...but none of these friend zoned guys get any sympathy from me. No one can have anyone they want. These guys have a sense of entitlement just because they would treat a woman well.
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to say this...but these guys also tend to swing for the fences and become infatuated with women that are waaaaaay out of their league. Nothing wrong with asking someone out that is significantly more attractive than you, but....if she friend zones you move on. Don't hang around for years expecting her to realize you were the one all along. All you will do is solidify your role as Duckie in her life (points to anyone that gets this reference). If she had married Duckie he would have been on TAM posting about his sexless marriage.




^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## NextTimeAround

Mr. Nail said:


> This thread has been so mind opening. I'm starting to see the whole friend zone thing as a translation error.
> Men and women friend (verb) in different ways. Men and women view sex in different ways. And the collision of these 4 different things often results in confusion and hurt feelings.
> I don't have time to type all of this out right now but Wow it is a huge revelation and It makes the world make more sense when I put it in this framework.


I would love to read your thoughts.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Buddy400 said:


> My sons, while in junior high / high school, consistently regarded girls were very extroverted and "huggy" to be possibly interested in them as "boyfriend" material.
> 
> I had to point out to them that this was just the nature of many extroverted girls and indicated nothing about their attraction to them; there's just as good a chance that the quite girl in the back of the room was interested in them.
> 
> This wasn't the girl's fault, it was a lack of knowledge on my son's parts.
> 
> My job was to point this sort of stuff out to them.


It's good you pointed this out to them because they may also be avoiding certain girls because they assume the extroverted classmate is into them when your sons are not interested in them.


----------



## NobodySpecial

minimalME said:


> What I genuinely don't get...
> 
> Maybe this was discussed earlier, but have these men _asked the women out_???
> 
> Have their intentions been made _verbally_ clear? And then she responds by saying, 'no let's just be friends'?
> 
> Or - are these men making assumptions? Being vague? Being coy? Hanging out with the hope that maybe she'll ask him out?


My guess is that a firm no is harder to take that a vague and nebulous maybe, even if the maybe is only in his mind. That is beginning to sound like the kind of game we are talking about playing here.


----------



## samyeagar

NextTimeAround said:


> It's good you pointed this out to them because they may also be avoiding certain girls because they assume the extroverted classmate is into them when your sons are not interested in them.


I also think that pointing out, contrary to popular media, TV, movies, self help blogs, and the like, trying to be girlfriend besties, the shoulder to cry on, the beck and call guy, the helper, the flower giver, and all that crap is not the way to get a girl into a romantic relationship, especially at a younger age. If anything, playing the part of "Friend" is a fast track to being typecast as well, just a friend.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

samyeagar said:


> I also think that pointing out, contrary to popular media, TV, movies, self help blogs, and the like, trying to be girlfriend besties, the shoulder to cry on, the beck and call guy, the helper, the flower giver, and all that crap is not the way to get a girl into a romantic relationship, especially at a younger age. If anything, playing the part of "Friend" is a fast track to being typecast as well, just a friend.


Bingo. What women swoon over on the screen and what they respond to in real life can be two very different things.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> What women swoon over on the screen and what they respond to in real life can be two very different things.


I am not sure I agree with that. Not that movies depict reality but most of the guys the ladies want on the screen are pretty darn handsome and smooth, and for the lack of a better term, pretty darn alpha. If thats what all woman wanted there would be an awful lot of single frustrated men. The funny thing is when it comes to movies, even guys want to the see the girl get the handsome cool dude on the big screen. We don't even cheer for the "nice guy" to get the girl. 

There are many variables involved in what makes a man attractive to an *individual* woman. They are like us, they also have their "type", and there really is no one size fits all method to get the girl. Just a bunch of books guys are making money off of with methods that don't really work for the reader.


----------



## minimalME

Mr. Nail said:


> *This thread has been so mind opening. * I'm starting to see the whole friend zone thing as a translation error.
> Men and women friend (verb) in different ways. Men and women view sex in different ways. And the collision of these 4 different things often results in confusion and hurt feelings.
> 
> I don't have time to type all of this out right now but Wow it is a huge revelation and It makes the world make more sense when I put it in this framework.


Agreed. 

As an introvert, it's fascinating to learn how outgoing, extroverted women behave. 

I'm _very_ reserved when initially dating, and I think that sends the message that I'm uninterested, which isn't the case. It's just me.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

ReformedHubby said:


> I am not sure I agree with that. Not that movies depict reality but most of the guys the ladies want on the screen are pretty darn handsome and smooth, and for the lack of a better term, pretty darn alpha. If thats what all woman wanted there would be an awful lot of single frustrated men. The funny thing is when it comes to movies, even guys want to the see the girl get the handsome cool dude on the big screen. We don't even cheer for the "nice guy" to get the girl.
> 
> There are many variables involved in what makes a man attractive to an *individual* woman. They are like us, they also have their "type", and there really is no one size fits all method to get the girl. Just a bunch of books guys are making money off of with methods that don't really work for the reader.


Well, as you say, they are handsome and smooth, which can overcome all the good listener, touchy feely stuff. 

But how alpha is the male lead in My Big Fat Greek Wedding? 
What about the guy who ultimately lands Sandra Bullock in While You Were Sleeping?
Hugh Grant in Notting Hill (or Hugh Grant in anything for that matter)?

No shortage of such examples. No, it's not universal, but it is common. Women always say they want a good listener for a mate, but many instead go for the bad boy who treats them like yesterdays news. It's a common theme in real life.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

minimalME said:


> Agreed.
> 
> As an introvert, it's fascinating to learn how outgoing, extroverted women behave.
> 
> I'm _very_ reserved when initially dating, and I think that sends the message that I'm uninterested, which isn't the case. It's just me.


That's my wife...to an extreme. She sent many packing without even trying to. 

She often tells me how wonderful it is I wasn't so easily dissuaded. Not only is she very happy with our now 30+ year marriage, she finds my strength of character, and quite frankly thick skin enough to not be easily crushed, very attractive.


----------



## samyeagar

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Well, as you say, they are handsome and smooth, which can overcome all the good listener, touchy feely stuff.
> 
> But how alpha is the male lead in My Big Fat Greek Wedding?
> What about the guy who ultimately lands Sandra Bullock in While You Were Sleeping?
> Hugh Grant in Notting Hill (or Hugh Grant in anything for that matter)?
> 
> No shortage of such examples. No, it's not universal, but it is common. Women always say they want a good listener for a mate, but many instead go for the bad boy who treats them like yesterdays news. It's a common theme in real life.


Girl in relationship with boring stable guy, and movie ends with her falling for and taming the bad boy free spirit is a very common theme. Another is the shy wallflower type guy friend who was always there for her, and in the end she realizes he's the right one for her and was right there in front of her eyes all along. And then to flip the script a bit was Pretty in Pink, and Sixteen Candles, and who can forget Say Anything and Can't Buy Me Love...


----------



## ReformedHubby

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Well, as you say, they are handsome and smooth, which can overcome all the good listener, touchy feely stuff.
> 
> *Women always say they want a good listener for a mate, but many instead go for the bad boy who treats them like yesterdays news. It's a common theme in real life*.


Hopefully I am not coming across as a contrarian jerk, not at all my intent, but I'm not sure I agree with that either. We all want someone that is a good listener....but we also want someone that does it for us. Yes they want a good listener, but they want someone they are hot for too. All of us have friends or know people that are good listeners. Doesn't mean we want to **** all of them. They want the good listening attributes in a man they find desirable. Just we like we want that cool girl to hang out with, but she has to be attractive to us too, and also boink our brains out regularly . I think the friend zoned guys don't realize that they don't bring everything they need to the table for the person they are pursuing.


----------



## samyeagar

ReformedHubby said:


> Hopefully I am not coming across as a contrarian jerk, not at all my intent, but I'm not sure I agree with that either. We all want someone that is a good listener....*but we also want someone that does it for us*. Yes they want a good listener, but they want someone they are hot for too. All of us have friends or know people that are good listeners. Doesn't mean we want to **** all of them. They want the good listening attributes in a man they find desirable. Just we like we want that cool girl to hang out with, but she has to be attractive to us too, and also boink our brains out regularly . I think the friend zoned guys don't realize that they don't bring everything they need to the table for the person they are pursuing.


This right here is the crux that I think is downplayed to the point of dismissal waaaay too much in today's culture. It's just not cool to openly say that raw physical attraction is vital, and that when push comes to shove, it is often the most important factor, beating out listening, cleaning, cooking, vacuuming, flowers by a long shot. Yet it is the latter that is drilled into peoples heads as what is really needed, it sets an expectation for what is really attractive. The misunderstanding, or misrepresentation is that just because something is not unattractive does not make it attractive by default.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

ReformedHubby said:


> Hopefully I am not coming across as a contrarian jerk, not at all my intent, but I'm not sure I agree with that either. We all want someone that is a good listener....but we also want someone that does it for us. Yes they want a good listener, but they want someone they are hot for too. All of us have friends or know people that are good listeners. Doesn't mean we want to **** all of them. They want the good listening attributes in a man they find desirable. Just we like we want that cool girl to hang out with, but she has to be attractive to us too, and also boink our brains out regularly . I think the friend zoned guys don't realize that they don't bring everything they need to the table for the person they are pursuing.


No worries. That all makes sense.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> ReformedHubby said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure I agree with that. Not that movies depict reality but most of the guys the ladies want on the screen are pretty darn handsome and smooth, and for the lack of a better term, pretty darn alpha. If thats what all woman wanted there would be an awful lot of single frustrated men. The funny thing is when it comes to movies, even guys want to the see the girl get the handsome cool dude on the big screen. We don't even cheer for the "nice guy" to get the girl.
> 
> There are many variables involved in what makes a man attractive to an *individual* woman. They are like us, they also have their "type", and there really is no one size fits all method to get the girl. Just a bunch of books guys are making money off of with methods that don't really work for the reader.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, as you say, they are handsome and smooth, which can overcome all the good listener, touchy feely stuff.
> 
> But how alpha is the male lead in My Big Fat Greek Wedding?
> What about the guy who ultimately lands Sandra Bullock in While You Were Sleeping?
> Hugh Grant in Notting Hill (or Hugh Grant in anything for that matter)?
> 
> No shortage of such examples. No, it's not universal, but it is common. Women always say they want a good listener for a mate, but many instead go for the bad boy who treats them like yesterdays news. It's a common theme in real life.
Click to expand...

I’m not sure about the other 2 movies, but the lead in My Big Fat Greek Wedding was not some orbiting friend zoned guy, and she was not hung up on some other hunk. He was a genuine hunky guy who was interested in her because she was different than the blonde bimbos he had previously been set up with. She was smart and quirky and he loved her culture, even though she hated it. He pursued her in the way a man who is truly interested in you pursues. There was nothing more complicated in the love story than that.

The guy was totally alpha in that sense and went for what he wanted. No covert contract, just genuine male pursuit of a female he had his sights set on.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Faithful Wife said:


> I’m not sure about the other 2 movies, but the lead in My Big Fat Greek Wedding was not some orbiting friend zoned guy, and she was not hung up on some other hunk. He was a genuine hunky guy who was interested in her because she was different than the blonde bimbos he had previously been set up with. She was smart and quirky and he loved her culture, even though she hated it. He pursued her in the way a man who is truly interested in you pursues. There was nothing more complicated in the love story than that.
> 
> The guy was totally alpha in that sense and went for what he wanted. No covert contract, just genuine male pursuit of a female he had his sights set on.


Reformed Hubby may be confusing that actor's different roles. in Sex and the City, he plays a slightly beta partner for Carey against her alpha preference Mr. Big.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> I’m not sure about the other 2 movies, but the lead in My Big Fat Greek Wedding was not some orbiting friend zoned guy, and she was not hung up on some other hunk. He was a genuine hunky guy who was interested in her because she was different than the blonde bimbos he had previously been set up with. She was smart and quirky and he loved her culture, even though she hated it. He pursued her in the way a man who is truly interested in you pursues. There was nothing more complicated in the love story than that.
> 
> The guy was totally alpha in that sense and went for what he wanted. No covert contract, just genuine male pursuit of a female he had his sights set on.


But he was anything but alpha in his overall actions. He was rather passive about most things. He was very careful to not ruffle any feathers and just be a nice guy around everyone, and lo and behold, through the magic of Hollywood, everything eventually fell into his nice little Mr Nice Guy lap. Or to be more accurate, since this is a chick flick, the extremely hunky, oooohhh so sensitive, perfect guy fell into the rather average woman's lap.

As I see it, this guy was willing to rearrange his entire life and completely alter his behavior for her. That is not alpha, it is total beta capitulation. The real clincher is that he got baptised in her church. Short of having a legitimate religious epiphany, one does not convert to another's faith as an alpha act. 

It's a cute move, and a rare chick flick that I actually enjoy. And despite the differences, they make a very nice couple. But let's not ignore the fact that he, while "going for what he wanted," was able to completely alter himself to get it.


----------



## personofinterest

It's a movie.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

personofinterest said:


> It's a movie.


Indeed.
Which was my point in the first place.
That what sells because it what people think they want is not always much like what they really want, as demonstrated by what they actually do.


----------



## VladDracul

NextTimeAround said:


> Not always. Some guys will not be happy being relegated to FB or FWB as well.


Some guys don't know when they've got it made in the shade. Being a FB or FWB is like have somebody putting free gas in your car.


----------



## NextTimeAround

VladDracul said:


> Some guys don't know when they've got it made in the shade. Being a FB or FWB is like have somebody putting free gas in your car.


or, it could be a matter of control.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> But he was anything but alpha in his overall actions. He was rather passive about most things. He was very careful to not ruffle any feathers and just be a nice guy around everyone, and lo and behold, through the magic of Hollywood, everything eventually fell into his nice little Mr Nice Guy lap. Or to be more accurate, since this is a chick flick, the extremely hunky, oooohhh so sensitive, perfect guy fell into the rather average woman's lap.
> 
> As I see it, this guy was willing to *rearrange his entire life and completely alter his behavior for her*. That is not alpha, it is total beta capitulation.  The real clincher is that he got baptised in her church. Short of having a legitimate religious epiphany, one does not convert to another's faith as an alpha act.
> 
> It's a cute move, and a rare chick flick that I actually enjoy. And despite the differences, they make a very nice couple. But let's not ignore the fact that he, while "going for what he wanted," was able to completely alter himself to get it.


Ok but every man and woman who has ever fallen head over heels in love, especially in a "real way" that ends up with a marriage, kids and a happy ending, HAS completely rearranged their life and altered their behavior.

Capitulation? Weird way to put it. People accommodate each other's lives and lifestyles, they are enamored by each other's quirks, these are just things that happen when you are in love. There was nothing and I mean NOTHING beta or NG or whatever you want to call it about the way they portrayed this guy in the movie. He was just an honest to goodness GOOD MAN, the one some guys around TAM claim that no woman actually wants, and yet most women do actually romanticize about this type of man and that's what we want. That's why this movie in particular was SO GOOD for the women who loved it.

There was no drama like boy meets girl, they break up, one hooks up with someone else, then one declares their love forever by almost jumping off a bridge, then they get back together, etc.

There was simply boy meets girl, boy is infatuated with girl, boy pursues girl, girl gets interested in boy, boy and girl incorporate each other into their lives, boy and girl get married and live happily ever after.

As for altering ourselves, heck, there were so many ways I altered my behavior in ways to make my ex h happy, and he did for me, as well. Things that we were not very good at at first, but which later became second nature. I'm not talking about the things that broke us up....that was a different level of things and not related to what I mean here. I'm talking more like things about how we had to understand each other's culture, hobbies, activities, and make changes in ourselves that accommodated the other. If he had been of a certain religion that was important to him that I convert, I would have done so and would have taken pride and interest in what all of that entailed.

In the Greek wedding movie, I just don't see your example in the way you are presenting it at all.

And the fact that he is actually a total hunk? Why is that part odd? Of course he is, it was a chick flick. Are you implying that the woman she was in the movie could not have "attained" such a dude? Because I don't see why she couldn't. There are beautiful GOOD MEN everywhere that pursue beautiful good women like her.


----------



## SpinyNorman

*Re: Can someone explain &quot;friend zoned&quot; to me, please?*



Ikaika said:


> Yes, I believe you misinterpreted my initial post.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Apologies then, but I don't know what you did mean.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok but every man and woman who has ever fallen head over heels in love, especially in a "real way" that ends up with a marriage, kids and a happy ending, HAS completely rearranged their life and altered their behavior.
> 
> Capitulation? Weird way to put it. People accommodate each other's lives and lifestyles, they are enamored by each other's quirks, these are just things that happen when you are in love. There was nothing and I mean NOTHING beta or NG or whatever you want to call it about the way they portrayed this guy in the movie. He was just an honest to goodness GOOD MAN, the one some guys around TAM claim that no woman actually wants, and yet most women do actually romanticize about this type of man and that's what we want. That's why this movie in particular was SO GOOD for the women who loved it.
> 
> There was no drama like boy meets girl, they break up, one hooks up with someone else, then one declares their love forever by almost jumping off a bridge, then they get back together, etc.
> 
> There was simply boy meets girl, boy is infatuated with girl, boy pursues girl, girl gets interested in boy, boy and girl incorporate each other into their lives, boy and girl get married and live happily ever after.
> 
> As for altering ourselves, heck, there were so many ways I altered my behavior in ways to make my ex h happy, and he did for me, as well. Things that we were not very good at at first, but which later became second nature. I'm not talking about the things that broke us up....that was a different level of things and not related to what I mean here. I'm talking more like things about how we had to understand each other's culture, hobbies, activities, and make changes in ourselves that accommodated the other. If he had been of a certain religion that was important to him that I convert, I would have done so and would have taken pride and interest in what all of that entailed.
> 
> In the Greek wedding movie, I just don't see your example in the way you are presenting it at all.
> 
> And the fact that he is actually a total hunk? Why is that part odd? Of course he is, it was a chick flick. Are you implying that the woman she was in the movie could not have "attained" such a dude? Because I don't see why she couldn't. There are beautiful GOOD MEN everywhere that pursue beautiful good women like her.


Everything your are saying makes perfectly good sense--except the part about the religious conversion. That's beyond just the sort of adapting to each other that I associate with the sort of compromise with regard to each others hobbies, etc. That's a whole different level. 

Either he completely changed, or he didn't change and went through with a sham ceremony, which is dishonest. I guess we're just bound to see that particular aspect of this differently. Either way though, it's not very alpha. (and I'm not arguing good or bad here--just my understanding of how one who takes the lead would behave--if following gets what you want, so be it). 

As for relative levels of attractiveness, I'm no judge of male attractiveness, so when I label him a hunk, it's based on inputs from females. But when I say she would generally not be considered that hot, that's I know something about, even taking into account the variations in personal taste. Of course she has a myriad of good qualities which make her more attractive, but you're fooling yourself if you don't see that part of the fantasy selling the film is that the relative mismatch there is in favor of the woman. Nothing wrong with that, but at least see it for what it is. A chick oriented (albeit far less crude or extreme) version of a fat guy in a porn flick getting to nail the hot blonde D cup.

Heck, even much of this thread has been about how guys should expect to get friend zoned just because they don't have their object's level of physical attractiveness, so it shouldn't seem too far out when I point out this aspect of the fantasy in the movie.


----------



## VladDracul

Here's the thing. Its like the song sez, "It it don't come easy, you better let it go." My rulz are this, and from a male perspective.

1. If you want to ask her out, just do it. Hanging around hoping the opportunity presents itself is for losers. 
2. If she turns you down for any reason without offering a viable rain check, she ain't interested. (do you think she'd turn down Johnny Depp because she told her girlfriend she'd go shopping with her?) If she 's flirtatious after turning you down, you're being played. 
3. 2 above really really applies to asking for a second date. There won't be a third.
4. If/when you kiss her, if she doesn't melt, her interest level in you is at the low end of the scale and will never improve. If you can't detect her high interest level in a kiss, her interest in you ain't there.
5. Finally, if her body language is not showing she's open for a kiss no later than the end of a second date, forget it.


----------



## wilson

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Nothing wrong with that, but at least see it for what it is. A chick oriented (albeit far less crude or extreme) version of a fat guy in a porn flick getting to nail the hot blonde D cup.


The movie Just Friends is almost exactly that. The fat guy gets the hot blond (although she's not a D). But the movie wimped out by making the fat guy hunky at the end (played by Ryan Reynolds). The movie is totally about being in the friend zone and having it work out in the end. This movie is the dream of every guy secretly pining for a woman who thinks of him as her best friend.


----------



## Ikaika

*Re: Can someone explain &quot;friend zoned&quot; to me, please?*



SpinyNorman said:


> Apologies then, but I don't know what you did mean.




There are lots of reasons a man or even a woman gets put into the friend zone. It just points to the fact that I would not be attracted to every woman (if I were looking) I courted and vis versa. I am not deceived into assuming I’m gods-gift to women. If I were pursuing and she told me “we can be friends” and I wanted more, it would be time for me to move on. And, the reverse can and should be the case. I assume no malice or other intent. I gave an example of a time when I was not attracted and friended a woman who did not get the hint. 

If a person is put into the friend zone and they visualize this as some malicious intent or if they assume if they just hang around it will happen but never does, that is their problem. And, not the one who has put that person in the friend-zone. Sometimes, self-respect is far more attractive than looks. 

I rarely assume movies reflect real life. In fact some movies that have bordered on this topic actually reflect a good reason to take out a restraining order. But, what do I know. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Luvher4life

Wow. I read the first 4 pages or so of this thread, and don't really have time to read the rest, but here's my take.

This "friend zone" term has been around since I can remember, and I started dating in the early '80s, so the term is not a new one by any stretch of the imagination.

When I was dating, I knew pretty much right away if there was any sexual energy between us. All you have to do is pay attention. If there is no sexual energy there, don't be foolish enough to think it's just going to happen.

Yes, I've been "friend zoned" before, but I was smart enough to figure it out pretty quickly, and I was okay with it as long as it didn't interfere with real dating. Sometimes we would just hang out as friends without expectations if neither of us were dating anybody at the time. We didn't treat our hanging out together as a date, meaning she paid her way if it wasn't something I was providing anyway. I only provided my company, my car, and my beer (among other things then) because that was me. I was single, so having female friends was never a problem. As a matter of fact, some would actually cue me to someone who was interested in me as a potential suitor.

I have seen women who would just lead a man on, and use him, knowing he was interested in more than being a "friend". I always thought it was a little immature on his part to not know. Yes, I considered it malicious on her part to do this to this innocent lovesick puppy, but the onus was on him, in my opinion. I would break the news to him what was happening if he was a friend, but it would be up to him what he did with that info.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Heck, even much of this thread has been about how guys should expect to get friend zoned just because they don't have their object's level of physical attractiveness, so it shouldn't seem too far out when I point out this aspect of the fantasy in the movie.


Will there ever, EVER be a dude flick where the boy gets the girl in which the girl is any less than a babe? Regardless of what the male hero looks like? 

The two in Greek wedding were not so far off as to seem like a ridiculous couple. It is a romantic comedy.

The hotness of the babes in dude flicks does not make me think that men all believe their woman is going to look like those babes, I know that men want a woman who he cherishes, and also know that many awesome wives who look like Nia from Greek wedding have GORGEOUS natural giant boobs and are highly sexual beings. You know, the kind that of women that don't go starfish on you? Just because the ultimate babe "look" is what we see in men's fantasy movies doesn't mean all men are that weird and shallow about it....enjoying looking at those types of babes is fun for everyone, gender regardless, and that's why movie stars look the way they do...so we can gawk at them.


----------



## southbound

I don’t think a woman just wanting to be friends with a guy is bad, but don’t flirt, get touchy when you talk, hang on every word, give him those big smiles, and then say, “we’re just friends, right?”


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## personofinterest

Sorry, not gonna change my.personality just because a man didn't believe my no.


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## MAJDEATH

In the simplest terms, it means you ain't getting none. So if that doesn't equate to what you are looking for, you should move on and not waste any more time :frown2:.


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## NextTimeAround

MAJDEATH said:


> In the simplest terms, it means you ain't getting none. So if that doesn't equate to what the other person is looking for, they should move on and not waste any more time :frown2:.



This is not just about sex, though...... which is why I keep comparing friend zoned relationships to EAs as there are SOME similarities.

I remember in the 90s when the concept of EAs was in still in development. My exH poo pooed the idea that he may be having an EA with one if his friends' wife.

Now I understand better why even when you feel certain that sex is not involved that somehow your relationship with your partner is in some way diminished.


----------



## Personal

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> As for relative levels of attractiveness, I'm no judge of male attractiveness, so when I label him a hunk, it's based on inputs from females. But when I say she would generally not be considered that hot, that's I know something about, even taking into account the variations in personal taste. Of course she has a myriad of good qualities which make her more attractive, but you're fooling yourself if you don't see that part of the fantasy selling the film is that the relative mismatch there is in favor of the woman. Nothing wrong with that, but at least see it for what it is. A chick oriented (albeit far less crude or extreme) version of a fat guy in a porn flick getting to nail the hot blonde D cup.


I thought they were on par with each other aesthetically.

As a man who prefers Mediterranean women (Italians, Greeks, Spaniards, Israeli's etc) aesthetically over Northern European blondes (who don't do much at all for me), I think she's sexy. Including as seen in the 2010 interview that follows below, when she was the same age as my wife (who is a sexy Sicilian woman).


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> Will there ever, EVER be a dude flick where the boy gets the girl in which the girl is any less than a babe? Regardless of what the male hero looks like?
> 
> The two in Greek wedding were not so far off as to seem like a ridiculous couple. It is a romantic comedy.
> 
> The hotness of the babes in dude flicks does not make me think that men all believe their woman is going to look like those babes, I know that men want a woman who he cherishes, and also know that many awesome wives who look like Nia from Greek wedding have GORGEOUS natural giant boobs and are highly sexual beings. You know, the kind that of women that don't go starfish on you? Just because the ultimate babe "look" is what we see in men's fantasy movies doesn't mean all men are that weird and shallow about it....enjoying looking at those types of babes is fun for everyone, gender regardless, and that's why movie stars look the way they do...so we can gawk at them.


All true. I was just trying to relate the concept to people gettin friend zoned and why.

One thing nobody has been largely overlooked is that guys can do this to gals as well. I had a college roommate who mercilessly strung along a very awkward girl because she was rich and took him places... oh yeah, and put out on request. I have seen guys who struggle academically strong along smart girls for the free tutoring. Just like all the things you mentioned, using the opposite sex is not gender specific.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Personal said:


> I thought they were on par with each other aesthetically.
> 
> As a man who prefers Mediterranean women (Italians, Greeks, Spaniards, Israeli's etc) aesthetically over Northern European blondes (who don't do much at all for me), I think she's sexy. Including as seen in the 2010 interview that follows below, when she was the same age as my wife (who is a sexy Sicilian woman).
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1PTYMyRhk4


I already acknowledged that attractiveness aesthetics are hugely individual and variable. But you would be the exception in this case. Much was made at the time about the apparent (to most people) mismatch. Much like the stardom of the non standard beauty of Bridgette Jones. Or Jennifer Gray landing Patrick Swayze.

And ftr, I would personally also find Nia Vardolos more attractive than, say Pamela Anderson. But that doesn’t change the fact that Pamela was voted hottest in a number of forums while Nia wouldn’t even get a sniff of the top 40 in any such poll.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

There is no coming back from friendzone no matter what Hollywood says. As romantic as the movies make it out, you are basically neutering yourself to a woman. You can't build the attraction or ignite passion if you are basically her Male girlfriend. If you try to be asexual waiting for the right moment, the moment will never come. You should make your intentions known right away or you will waste a lot of time and kill any potential sexual energy. If she just wants to be just friends, that's your cue to exit.


----------



## MAJDEATH

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> There is no coming back from friendzone no matter what Hollywood says. As romantic as the movies make it out, you are basically neutering yourself to a woman. You can't build the attraction or ignite passion if you are basically her Male girlfriend. If you try to be asexual waiting for the right moment, the moment will never come. You should make your intentions known right away or you will waste a lot of time and kill any potential sexual energy. If she just wants to be just friends, that's your cue to exit.


I was gonna say, I always heard that a girl decides in the first 5 minutes if she's ever gonna sleep with you.


----------



## ReformedHubby

VladDracul said:


> Some guys don't know when they've got it made in the shade. Being a FB or FWB is like have somebody putting free gas in your car.


LoL, I completely agree. Nobody complains about being offered FWB as opposed to being just friends. Its like having one of the best parts of the relationship without the relationship.


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## NobodySpecial

One thought I had that came up as a result of this thread. If I were hanging out with a man who thought men and women can't be friends, sort of the why be friends with women when I have male friends thought pattern, and that all women are good for is ****ing, I would want to KNOW. That is a person I would not want to hang out with at all, friend or otherwise.


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## personofinterest

"In the simplest terms, it means you ain't getting none. So if that doesn't equate to what you are looking for, you should move on and not waste any more time 🙂."

MAJ nailed it. And yeah, it is about sex. That entitled genre of guy is primarily concerned with her giving him sex. That is why he gets ticked off if being the nice guy doesn't automatically translate into 6, and so he begins blaming her and all of womankind and reading sub forums of reddit lol


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

NobodySpecial said:


> One thought I had that came up as a result of this thread. If I were hanging out with a man who thought men and women can't be friends, sort of the why be friends with women when I have male friends thought pattern, and that all women are good for is ****ing, I would want to KNOW. That is a person I would not want to hang out with at all, friend or otherwise.


How would you even know, unless he is gay? I've never understood how two attractive opposite sex people can just be friends that share common interests and could never potentially fall into some romance. And if one is clearly more attractive than the other (usually the female), then there probably is probably some unrequited love type thing going on. That's why I'd never be in a serious relationship with a woman that had close male friends (been there, done that, got burned). I wouldn't trust his designs and could never be comfortable.


----------



## NobodySpecial

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> How would you even know, unless he is gay? I've never understood how two attractive opposite sex people can just be friends that share common interests and could never potentially fall into some romance. And if one is clearly more attractive than the other (usually the female), then there probably is probably some unrequited love type thing going on. That's why I'd never be in a serious relationship with a woman that had close male friends (been there, done that, got burned). I wouldn't trust his designs and could never be comfortable.


I think each of us would pursue partners who view these things the same way. Romance is not a default position for me. It is special and unique requiring more than just being an attractive member of the opposite sex.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

NobodySpecial said:


> I think each of us would pursue partners who view these things the same way. Romance is not a default position for me. It is special and unique requiring more than just being an attractive member of the opposite sex.


Romance maybe, but for men who have been hardwired by Mother Nature to spread as much of his DNA in as many directions as possible, if you are attractive or atleast attractive to him, he will probably pounce if he gets the chance.


----------



## NobodySpecial

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Romance maybe, but for men who have been hardwired by Mother Nature to spread as much of his DNA in as many directions as possible, if you are attractive or atleast attractive to him, he will probably pounce if he gets the chance.


Shrug. That has not been my experience with men who employ their brains and their hearts.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

NobodySpecial said:


> Shrug. That has not been my experience with men who employ their brains and their hearts.


Indeed. I am a fully formed human being who is not a slave to base instinct. 

Any statement that men can’t do better is offensive.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

NobodySpecial said:


> Shrug. That has not been my experience with men who employ their brains and their hearts.


Well, its all situation specific.. If you are both single, I obviously don't understand how it would never enter the equation from a male perspective. If either of you are in relationships and have ironclad boundaries, it may not be a thing. But like I said, I wouldn't trust him. For me, I've never really had any ulterior motives for women I knew were taken, even if I found them physically attractive. But at the same time I have no interest being a woman's male girlfriend because I grow weary of too much talk.


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## NobodySpecial

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well, its all situation specific.. If you are both single, I obviously don't understand how it would never enter the equation from a male perspective. If either of you are in relationships and have ironclad boundaries, it may not be a thing. But like I said, I wouldn't trust him. For me, I've never really had any ulterior motives for women I knew were taken, even if I found them physically attractive. But at the same time I have no interest being a woman's male girlfriend because I grow weary of too much talk.


There are people one just does not feel is right for you romantically. I am thinking about friends who are just lovely people, great looking, who have been in my life for decades even before my now husband. And friends that I and he have met since. Even in the absence of my husband, we just weren't for each other. Pretty simple. Rollerblading, hiking, dancing, eating. Sure. Fun! Romance and sex? We'll pass thanks. I don;t know what too much talk means. I am not a fan. Not sure what that has to do with friendship.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

NobodySpecial said:


> There are people one just does not feel is right for you romantically. I am thinking about friends who are just lovely people, great looking, who have been in my life for decades even before my now husband. And friends that I and he have met since. Even in the absence of my husband, we just weren't for each other. Pretty simple. Rollerblading, hiking, dancing, eating. Sure. Fun! Romance and sex? We'll pass thanks. I don;t know what too much talk means. I am not a fan. Not sure what that has to do with friendship.


Let me ask, do you hang out with these male friends without your husband present? Are these men single or attached?

Too much talk means women like to talk/gossip lots, I communicate with grunts, sniffing hindquarters and etching on cave walls my daily itenerary.


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## personofinterest

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> How would you even know, unless he is gay? I've never understood how two attractive opposite sex people can just be friends that share common interests and could never potentially fall into some romance. And if one is clearly more attractive than the other (usually the female), then there probably is probably some unrequited love type thing going on. That's why I'd never be in a serious relationship with a woman that had close male friends (been there, done that, got burned). I wouldn't trust his designs and could never be comfortable.


Here's the thing....just because YOU cannot understand it does not mean it cannot be true or it cannot happen. I would be arrogant to think otherwise.


----------



## NobodySpecial

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Let me ask, do you hang out with these male friends without your husband present? Are these men single or attached?


Sure I do. And they are both single and married.



> Too much talk means women like to talk/gossip lots, I communicate with grunts, sniffing hindquarters and etching on cave walls my daily itenerary.


Ok. Well if you want to hang around cave dwellers, rock it. I don't. Geez. I hate gossip. That is what you think "women" do? Maybe you need different women. Or not. I am not sure different women would want you. Sorry.


----------



## Johann Sebastian

It's the flip side of "friends with benefits."


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## wilson

NobodySpecial said:


> Rollerblading, hiking, dancing, eating. Sure. Fun! Romance and sex? We'll pass thanks.


While I can totally understand how you can do these things with men and not have any romantic feelings, it's less likely for the men. If a man is going rollerblading, hiking or dancing with a woman, he's not viewing you 100% as a friend. There is some aspect for him that is sexual. It doesn't necessarily mean he's hitting on you. It may be that he just likes the feeling of doing stuff with pretty women. Regardless, doing that stuff with you is not like doing that stuff with his guy friends.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Johann Sebastian said:


> It's the flip side of "friends with benefits."


Sounds awful. Emotional bonding and no phsyical. No sir, I wouldn't sign up for that!


----------



## NobodySpecial

wilson said:


> While I can totally understand how you can do these things with men and not have any romantic feelings, it's less likely for the men. If a man is going rollerblading, hiking or dancing with a woman, he's not viewing you 100% as a friend.


I asked my friend this. His replay was... oh christ, what a tool.


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## NobodySpecial

I just IMed another friend. His reply was isn't that like wanting sex with your sister or cousin or something? Tee hee.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

NobodySpecial said:


> I just IMed another friend. His reply was isn't that like wanting sex with your sister or cousin or something? Tee hee.


Well, then that's great. You have a male girlfriend. You both can emotionally bond, eat ice cream together and talk about John's new girlfriend who dresses trashy and do all that with zero physical attraction. If that works for both of you, why did you start this thread?


----------



## Personal

Like NobodySpecial I have opposite sex friends from my past from years before I met my wife.

One of them for example, is a woman who I have known since before I turned 21 (I am turning 47 this year). Yet I have never had sex with her or been romantic with her at all and I am not wanting to either. Yet I have shared her bed with her to sleep, way back when because it was better than the floor otherwise.

While for a time in more recent years, we regularly met once a week on the same day after work, shared dinner and attended a shared activity together and then I sometimes took her home and chatted for a while then went home to my wife and family.

Now there are times when I don't catch up with her at all for a while, and this will sometimes last for a few months and has even lasted a year. Yet we do keep in touch occasionally, and depending upon where we're living we will see each other more frequently. Plus there have been times my wife has caught up with her alone as well, then there are the times we catch up together as well.

My friend is also attractive, fit, single and has never been married and has no kids. Years ago when we were between dates/partners we also used to catch movies together, went to concerts and had dinner together and went to clubs and pubs together as well.

Then when my wife and I started dating, my wife met her when we had what became a double date together, because she wanted to bring a guy she was with. I even went to a concert type event with her alone, after my wife and I started dating (close to 22 years ago) because we'd already bought tickets before my wife asked me out. That said we sometimes went to see other concerts together with my wife and friend as well.

When my wife first met her, she did wonder if there was something between us sexually. Yet after a little while of seeing us together she decided there was nothing there at all. That said my wife told me she wouldn't have been fussed if my friend and I had played together in the past.

I think it's possible to have platonic relationships with people of the opposite sex, without it being a threat and without there being an ulterior motive. So I don't think just being a friend is always a bad thing.


----------



## NobodySpecial

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well, then that's great. You have a male girlfriend. You both can emotionally bond, eat ice cream together and talk about John's new girlfriend who dresses trashy and do all that with zero physical attraction. If that works for both of you, why did you start this thread?


I am not sure why we would talk about that. That seems sort of dumb. I have no say or much interest in who he goes out with unless he wants me to. That has not come up lately. I think I was pretty clear why I started the thread though. I have repeated it several times. Cheers.


----------



## DustyDog

NobodySpecial said:


> So a man is interested in a woman. The woman is not romantically interested in the man. The woman is seen as putting the man in the "friend zone" as some sort of malicious act that she should not do. What should she do? Some people do believe that men and women can be friends. Some of my best buds are men. What IS this friend zone thing?


Everybody has the responsibility for setting personal boundaries. A woman "friend zoning" a man is setting appropriate boundaries. It is total misogyny for a man to use the term "friend zoned" as if it were pejorative.

If a man is only interested in a woman, then it would be equally correct, and equally pejorative, for the woman to say that the man had "date-zoned" her. Except in this case, it could readily lead to harassment.


----------



## wilson

NobodySpecial said:


> I just IMed another friend. His reply was isn't that like wanting sex with your sister or cousin or something? Tee hee.


I mean this respectfully, but I think you're giving mixed signals with these men. When you do one-on-one stuff with men, the assumption they commonly have is that there is some sort of romantic aspect to it. It doesn't necessarily mean they want to have sex with you, but they are enjoying the female attention part of your relationship. 

Certainly it's possible for men and women to be truly 100% friends, but that is going to be the more unusual case. Men like attention from women, so the more common case is that they are enjoying the validation from a woman. 

I don't know you so I can't speak to your specific situation, but I think most husbands would be very concerned if their wife was off hiking and dancing with other men. The husbands, being men, would understand those other men's motivations and desires. The wife may truly think of those men as friends, but she can't really know what's going on in their head to know if the men think of her in the same way. Even if you ask, what are they going to say? "Yes, NS, I do like hanging around you because it's fun to flirt with you. Don't tell your husband. I hope this doesn't change anything and we can keep flirting."


----------



## NobodySpecial

wilson said:


> I mean this respectfully, but I think you're giving mixed signals with these men. When you do one-on-one stuff with men, the assumption they commonly have is that there is some sort of romantic aspect to it. It doesn't necessarily mean they want to have sex with you, but they are enjoying the female attention part of your relationship.
> 
> Certainly it's possible for men and women to be truly 100% friends, but that is going to be the more unusual case. Men like attention from women, so the more common case is that they are enjoying the validation from a woman.
> 
> I don't know you so I can't speak to your specific situation, but I think most husbands would be very concerned if their wife was off hiking and dancing with other men. The husbands, being men, would understand those other men's motivations and desires. The wife may truly think of those men as friends, but she can't really know what's going on in their head to know if the men think of her in the same way. Even if you ask, what are they going to say? "Yes, NS, I do like hanging around you because it's fun to flirt with you. Don't tell your husband. I hope this doesn't change anything and we can keep flirting."


I can tell you that not all "men", being men, feel the way you do. You won't believe me. That's fine.


----------



## Luvher4life

I've had many female friends. They filled dating gaps when I wasn't seeing anybody in particular. We just hung out together and had a good time. While together we made sure we respected each other enough not to try to draw attention from the opposite sex. These were the kind of friends who would do practically anything for me, and it never was about sex. The sex came from the women where the sexual energy and chemistry were there. I didn't take it as a knock on me as a sexual creature, even though I would "flirt" with them (they were usually very attractive) occasionally knowing it wasn't leading anywhere. It just honed my skills, and hers, for our next real suitor.

There were at least a couple of exceptions, though most people didn't know. At least two of the women I had been friends with for many years became friends with benefits, but it was understood that it wasn't going to lead to a relationship. We respected each others boundaries. It wasn't that there wasn't any sexual tension at all. It was just understood that the timing wasn't right to get involved in any drama, therefore we remained friends. When feelings became involved, and they inevitably do after a while, we would cool off for a while. Even though I haven't been in contact with any of these female friends since I met my wife, if I were to meet them today, you can bet your last dollar there would be a big hug involved, and nothing else. It's called respect, just like any other friend.


----------



## NextTimeAround

wilson said:


> I don't know you so I can't speak to your specific situation, but I think most husbands would be very concerned if their wife was off hiking and dancing with other men. The husbands, being men, would understand those other men's motivations and desires. The wife may truly think of those men as friends, but she can't really know what's going on in their head to know if the men think of her in the same way. Even if you ask, what are they going to say? "Yes, NS, I do like hanging around you because it's fun to flirt with you. Don't tell your husband. I hope this doesn't change anything and we can keep flirting."


Also if these male friends have wives or long term partners, I think how they should be part of equation.

When a partner posts on here his /her concern about an OSF of their Long term partner, the overwhelming advice is that the partner needs to get that friendship under control to show respect to the original poster. Sometimes that means ending the friendship completely.

It seems as if this thread is looking at OSFs from one direction and concluding that the wives and husbands who were not encouraged , or maybe even not invited, to the hiking trip or the salsa bar is supposed to put with what ever the spouse and his / her friend wants dish out.

also, it's been discussed here a lot how EAs and then PAs are hidden in plain sight....... under the guise of friendships.


----------



## NobodySpecial

NextTimeAround said:


> Also if these male friends have wives or long term partners, I think how they should be part of equation.
> 
> When a partner posts on here his /her concern about an OSF of their Long term partner, the overwhelming advice is that the partner needs to get that friendship under control to show respect to the original poster. Sometimes that means ending the friendship completely.


For my part, I believe this is as much due to the fact that the majority of people who post here are predisposed to certain points of view.


----------



## Johann Sebastian

Okay, so you have made me think back over the course of my 3 marriages. In the mid 1990s (during second marriage) I had one really close female friend who I was not mentally targeting as a potential sexual partner. I don't think you could label it an EA either. She was bisexual, and we were drinking buddies who enjoyed each other's company, much in the same way guy friends do. So we were legit friends, but it was not a "friend zone."

I also had a close friendship with a homosexual man during the early 90s (during first marriage). I would say we had true affection for one another, but there was never a sexual attraction simply because that's not my thing. I wouldn't call that an EA either. To me the two relationships were very similar, legit close friends.

In my experience, most of the time (but not all of the time) a one-on-one male-female friendship outside of the marriage is going to have some implicit sexual tension. If the female is more attractive, it will likely end up as a "friend zone." If the male is more attractive, it could end up as a "friend with benefits."


----------



## personofinterest

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well, then that's great. You have a male girlfriend. You both can emotionally bond, eat ice cream together and talk about John's new girlfriend who dresses trashy and do all that with zero physical attraction. If that works for both of you, why did you start this thread?


Boy, you have an odd and insulting view of women. I don't eat much ice cream, and I don't talk about people's fashion sense. Heck, I don't even know anything about the Real Housewives.

And did you just imply he was gay because he didn't want to jump his friend's bones?

Yikes.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

I didn't read all of this, sorry if this has been covered already, but my take is the friend zone is pretty much always on the person being placed in it. 

Now, there are people who use people. So where some women will just flat out say "no I dont like you like that, but we can be friends if you want" isn't doing anything wrong. There is a small portion of narsasitic women who absolutely will flirt enough, touchy feely, feign interest, all in some way to keep a guy interested just enough that he will be her little slave so to speak. He will wake up at 3am if she calls and needs a ride, he will help her move to a new apartment, he will grab her lunch and pick up the tab, he will take off his jacket and place it in a puddle so she doesnt get her shoes wet... You get the idea. Now she does this not only for the perks of using the guy at her disposal, but also because she craves the attention of men and needs men to want her. She will be the girl who has no less than 5 of these dopes hanging around. She gives them just enough of a hint of a chance to bang her as she needs to give out to keep these men in line and coming back for more of the same. "Oh man #3 has been distant, let me call him up for a drink, we can go out and ill get tipsy and a bit handsy, maybe rub my ass all over his junk on the dance floor a bit, then he'll be right back where I need him to be." And the dopes fall for it every time. 

The other ones aren't the girl's fault, its the stupid guy's fault. Maybe he is infatuated which causes him to misread every action the girl makes. Making it seem like she wants more when she doesn't. Maybe he's trying to do the just friends thing, but he is still too attracted to her for it to ever work out. You really can't be friends with someone you want to bang. Its not going to work out for you in any way. You will scare off other girls is all that will happen. 

I wouldn't ever be in any sort of friend zone. If we get along great, and I make my move and get shut down. I'm done with that girl. She is of no use to me anymore and will only cause issues elsewhere. Not saying there is anything wrong with her, just saying I won't be able to find another woman if I'm hanging out with my friend who I'm obviously attracted to. Or I will have to scrap the friendship later anyway if I do end up in a relationship as I don't think I should be hanging out with other women I have romantic feelings towards. So there really is no point in that friendship at all. 

The friend zone is when a guy is infatuated and only wants this one girl and can't get past her. So he keeps her close and does all the stuff he can in hopes that some day he will win her over. Meanwhile he never will, and scares other girls away as a result of his own actions and decisions, then sits around with a woe is me attitude for his "bad luck" with women. He's a loser. Any man in the friend zone is a loser to core. Its not the woman's fault. Although like I pointed out, there are women who do use these suckers in a nefarious manner. But that is a small number of women that do that.


----------



## naiveonedave

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I didn't read all of this, sorry if this has been covered already, but my take is the friend zone is pretty much always on the person being placed in it.
> 
> Now, there are people who use people. So where some women will just flat out say "no I dont like you like that, but we can be friends if you want" isn't doing anything wrong. There is a small portion of narsasitic women who absolutely will flirt enough, touchy feely, feign interest, all in some way to keep a guy interested just enough that he will be her little slave so to speak. He will wake up at 3am if she calls and needs a ride, he will help her move to a new apartment, he will grab her lunch and pick up the tab, he will take off his jacket and place it in a puddle so she doesnt get her shoes wet... You get the idea. Now she does this not only for the perks of using the guy at her disposal, but also because she craves the attention of men and needs men to want her. She will be the girl who has no less than 5 of these dopes hanging around. She gives them just enough of a hint of a chance to bang her as she needs to give out to keep these men in line and coming back for more of the same. "Oh man #3 has been distant, let me call him up for a drink, we can go out and ill get tipsy and a bit handsy, maybe rub my ass all over his junk on the dance floor a bit, then he'll be right back where I need him to be." And the dopes fall for it every time.
> 
> The other ones aren't the girl's fault, its the stupid guy's fault. Maybe he is infatuated which causes him to misread every action the girl makes. Making it seem like she wants more when she doesn't. Maybe he's trying to do the just friends thing, but he is still too attracted to her for it to ever work out. You really can't be friends with someone you want to bang. Its not going to work out for you in any way. You will scare off other girls is all that will happen.
> 
> I wouldn't ever be in any sort of friend zone. If we get along great, and I make my move and get shut down. I'm done with that girl. She is of no use to me anymore and will only cause issues elsewhere. Not saying there is anything wrong with her, just saying I won't be able to find another woman if I'm hanging out with my friend who I'm obviously attracted to. Or I will have to scrap the friendship later anyway if I do end up in a relationship as I don't think I should be hanging out with other women I have romantic feelings towards. So there really is no point in that friendship at all.
> 
> The friend zone is when a guy is infatuated and only wants this one girl and can't get past her. So he keeps her close and does all the stuff he can in hopes that some day he will win her over. Meanwhile he never will, and scares other girls away as a result of his own actions and decisions, then sits around with a woe is me attitude for his "bad luck" with women. He's a loser. Any man in the friend zone is a loser to core. Its not the woman's fault. Although like I pointed out, there are women who do use these suckers in a nefarious manner. But that is a small number of women that do that.


I disagree with the last bit. It can be like that, but it doesn't have to be. You can be in the friend zone and not really even know it for awhile. It is situational dependent. Being in the friend zone of one chick does not necessarily mean you won't work on or get with other women. I also think the number of women that do this, especially teenage and young twenties is a larger fraction than you think. I see it all the time with HS and college aged girls. Not a majority of them, but a significant percentage of them are manipulating boys because a) they can b) the boys and girls have been trained to set up this type of relationship c) the boys haven't learned enough yet on when to say NO. I think the tactic really doesn't work much past 30 years old, because the men typically have matured enough to see the reality and aren't willing to put up with it.


----------



## NextTimeAround

naiveonedave said:


> I disagree with the last bit. It can be like that, but it doesn't have to be. You can be in the friend zone and not really even know it for awhile. It is situational dependent. *Being in the friend zone of one chick does not necessarily mean you won't work on or get with other women. * I also think the number of women that do this, especially teenage and young twenties is a larger fraction than you think. I see it all the time with HS and college aged girls. Not a majority of them, but a significant percentage of them are manipulating boys because a) they can b) the boys and girls have been trained to set up this type of relationship c) the boys haven't learned enough yet on when to say NO. I think the tactic really doesn't work much past 30 years old, because the men typically have matured enough to see the reality and aren't willing to put up with it.


This is exactly the first ear of my dating my second husband.

He and his socalled friend had dated; he told me they had sex a couple of times before he met me. She told him several times -- I saw it in the messaging between them -- that she was not looking for anything serious RIGHT NOW and was open with him about doing online dating.

When she learned about me she went into overdrive; acting like a girlfriend again making my husband in the 3 and 4 month of our dating believe that he may still have a chance with her. 

I agree that he needs to take responsibility for allowing the overlap to happen of relationships to happen, especially in the way that they did (I know that he told her some very personal things about me when I had no knowledge of her.).

OTOH, I still see her as the predator, INTENTIONALLY creating confusion; giving him hope that he had a chance with her -- AFTER ALL -- at a moment when he could have lost me.

I remember when he was being less reliable saying in a phone call "I didn't think I would hear from you so soon." I think that pushed him to go in for the (open mouth) kiss with her; she rejected him and that was a turning point in our relationship.

she still remained in contact with him under the guise of friendship, but my intuition told me that if this relationship got normalised, it would always be a problem. I snooped in his electronic messaging; was able to see hardcopy credit card statements around his place and decided that since I was the gf; since I was making sacrifices to be his gf (she's the one who goes home to her bf after they see each other, not vice versa) that this woman had no place in my life.

This is how "friendzoned" relationships get started and carry on.


----------



## personofinterest

> You can be in the friend zone and not really even know it for awhile.


Not if you have the cajones to actually ask the girl out and find out. If she says no or hedges, then she's not interested. If a guy then chooses to analyze every hair flip to gauge for interest, that is really on him. It's the same when the genders are reversed. If a guy has said "we are just friends' and a girl keeps hanging on because "Oh, he bought my lunch. It must meeeeean something," that is on her.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

naiveonedave said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't read all of this, sorry if this has been covered already, but my take is the friend zone is pretty much always on the person being placed in it.
> 
> Now, there are people who use people. So where some women will just flat out say "no I dont like you like that, but we can be friends if you want" isn't doing anything wrong. There is a small portion of narsasitic women who absolutely will flirt enough, touchy feely, feign interest, all in some way to keep a guy interested just enough that he will be her little slave so to speak. He will wake up at 3am if she calls and needs a ride, he will help her move to a new apartment, he will grab her lunch and pick up the tab, he will take off his jacket and place it in a puddle so she doesnt get her shoes wet... You get the idea. Now she does this not only for the perks of using the guy at her disposal, but also because she craves the attention of men and needs men to want her. She will be the girl who has no less than 5 of these dopes hanging around. She gives them just enough of a hint of a chance to bang her as she needs to give out to keep these men in line and coming back for more of the same. "Oh man #3 has been distant, let me call him up for a drink, we can go out and ill get tipsy and a bit handsy, maybe rub my ass all over his junk on the dance floor a bit, then he'll be right back where I need him to be." And the dopes fall for it every time.
> 
> The other ones aren't the girl's fault, its the stupid guy's fault. Maybe he is infatuated which causes him to misread every action the girl makes. Making it seem like she wants more when she doesn't. Maybe he's trying to do the just friends thing, but he is still too attracted to her for it to ever work out. You really can't be friends with someone you want to bang. Its not going to work out for you in any way. You will scare off other girls is all that will happen.
> 
> I wouldn't ever be in any sort of friend zone. If we get along great, and I make my move and get shut down. I'm done with that girl. She is of no use to me anymore and will only cause issues elsewhere. Not saying there is anything wrong with her, just saying I won't be able to find another woman if I'm hanging out with my friend who I'm obviously attracted to. Or I will have to scrap the friendship later anyway if I do end up in a relationship as I don't think I should be hanging out with other women I have romantic feelings towards. So there really is no point in that friendship at all.
> 
> The friend zone is when a guy is infatuated and only wants this one girl and can't get past her. So he keeps her close and does all the stuff he can in hopes that some day he will win her over. Meanwhile he never will, and scares other girls away as a result of his own actions and decisions, then sits around with a woe is me attitude for his "bad luck" with women. He's a loser. Any man in the friend zone is a loser to core. Its not the woman's fault. Although like I pointed out, there are women who do use these suckers in a nefarious manner. But that is a small number of women that do that.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with the last bit. It can be like that, but it doesn't have to be. You can be in the friend zone and not really even know it for awhile. It is situational dependent. Being in the friend zone of one chick does not necessarily mean you won't work on or get with other women. I also think the number of women that do this, especially teenage and young twenties is a larger fraction than you think. I see it all the time with HS and college aged girls. Not a majority of them, but a significant percentage of them are manipulating boys because a) they can b) the boys and girls have been trained to set up this type of relationship c) the boys haven't learned enough yet on when to say NO. I think the tactic really doesn't work much past 30 years old, because the men typically have matured enough to see the reality and aren't willing to put up with it.
Click to expand...

The longer you wait to make your move, the further you get from your ultimate goal. So if you are too scared to make a move, that again is on the guy not the girl. These are the guys that play "friends" with a girl and get mad when a random dude walks up and says "damn girl, you look fine! Let me get that phone number" and the "nice guy" gets all bent out of shape when the girl gives her phone number. Then he will go sulk somewhere and say stuff like "women say they want a nice guy but then date jerks. I'm a nice guy and treat women right. Thats what they say they want. But they always go for jerks" and then they get bitter and join some woman hating club and rent a van and drive it on a sidewalk somewhere. Because, you know, they're nice guys. Also implying that any man with confidence is a jerk to the core. Also implying that simply being nice should earn you a BJ or something. 

There is no friend zone. Its a self created "woe is me" fantasy zone designed to make the woman out to be the bad person should you fail. 

Being in the friend zone scares other women away. Even if you are working on getting other women, you will ultimately invest time into this girl you have no shot with. Which other women see and won't want any part of. Even if you get a date, they will notice your infatuation with your "friend" and you will scare her off or she will ask you to not be friends with that other girl because she is a known threat. More than likely though, you will just scare her off. 

Make your move quickly, stop wasting your own time and theirs. If you get shot down "I understand. Well have a nice life" and move on. You wont hurt her feelings because there is no emotional investment towards you as a friend. You wont waste your own time investing in this woman you have no shot with. Everybody wins when you just man up and make your quickly. If you get the "no" just move on. You don't need her in your life anyway. She doesn't need you either. 

There really is no such thing as the "friend zone"


----------



## NextTimeAround

personofinterest said:


> Not if you have the cajones to actually ask the girl out and find out. If she says no or hedges, then she's not interested. If a guy then chooses to analyze every hair flip to gauge for interest, that is really on him. It's the same when the genders are reversed. If a guy has said "we are just friends' and a girl keeps hanging on because "Oh, he bought my lunch. It must meeeeean something," that is on her.


She will accept going out with him because "that's what friends do." He will offer to pay for the date because that's what men do on dates, but she won't see it that way.

the best way for a guy to figure if he is dating a woman is to be progressively physically affectionate with the woman. Open mouth kiss at least by the third date; some touching of the arms and so on. With male friends, I don't allow that. I'm sure other women are the same.

One problem for men will be a woman who doesn't see a guy as "marriage material" but is still happy to have sexual relationship with the guy.


----------



## personofinterest

TheDudeLebowski said:


> The longer you wait to make your move, the further you get from your ultimate goal. So if you are too scared to make a move, that again is on the guy not the girl. These are the guys that play "friends" with a girl and get mad when a random dude walks up and says "damn girl, you look fine! Let me get that phone number" and the "nice guy" gets all bent out of shape when the girl gives her phone number. Then he will go sulk somewhere and say stuff like "women say they want a nice guy but then date jerks. I'm a nice guy and treat women right. Thats what they say they want. But they always go for jerks" and then they get bitter and join some woman hating club and rent a van and drive it on a sidewalk somewhere. Because, you know, they're nice guys. Also implying that any man with confidence is a jerk to the core. Also implying that simply being nice should earn you a BJ or something.
> 
> There is no friend zone. Its a self created "woe is me" fantasy zone designed to make the woman out to be the bad person should you fail.
> 
> Being in the friend zone scares other women away. Even if you are working on getting other women, you will ultimately invest time into this girl you have no shot with. Which other women see and won't want any part of. Even if you get a date, they will notice your infatuation with your "friend" and you will scare her off or she will ask you to not be friends with that other girl because she is a known threat. More than likely though, you will just scare her off.
> 
> Make your move quickly, stop wasting your own time and theirs. If you get shot down "I understand. Well have a nice life" and move on. You wont hurt her feelings because there is no emotional investment towards you as a friend. You wont waste your own time investing in this woman you have no shot with. Everybody wins when you just man up and make your quickly. If you get the "no" just move on. You don't need her in your life anyway. She doesn't need you either.
> 
> There really is no such thing as the "friend zone"


I think I love you. In a completely platonic way. And yes, I'll let my hubby read this, and he'll chuckle and agree with you.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

NextTimeAround said:


> naiveonedave said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree with the last bit. It can be like that, but it doesn't have to be. You can be in the friend zone and not really even know it for awhile. It is situational dependent. *Being in the friend zone of one chick does not necessarily mean you won't work on or get with other women. * I also think the number of women that do this, especially teenage and young twenties is a larger fraction than you think. I see it all the time with HS and college aged girls. Not a majority of them, but a significant percentage of them are manipulating boys because a) they can b) the boys and girls have been trained to set up this type of relationship c) the boys haven't learned enough yet on when to say NO. I think the tactic really doesn't work much past 30 years old, because the men typically have matured enough to see the reality and aren't willing to put up with it.
> 
> 
> 
> This is exactly the first ear of my dating my second husband.
> 
> He and his socalled friend had dated; he told me they had sex a couple of times before he met me. She told him several times -- I saw it in the messaging between them -- that she was not looking for anything serious RIGHT NOW and was open with him about doing online dating.
> 
> When she learned about me she went into overdrive; acting like a girlfriend again making my husband in the 3 and 4 month of our dating believe that he may still have a chance with her.
> 
> I agree that he needs to take responsibility for allowing the overlap to happen of relationships to happen, especially in the way that they did (I know that he told her some very personal things about me when I had no knowledge of her.).
> 
> OTOH, I still see her as the predator, INTENTIONALLY creating confusion; giving him hope that he had a chance with her -- AFTER ALL -- at a moment when he could have lost me.
> 
> I remember when he was being less reliable saying in a phone call "I didn't think I would hear from you so soon." I think that pushed him to go in for the (open mouth) kiss with her; she rejected him and that was a turning point in our relationship.
> 
> she still remained in contact with him under the guise of friendship, but my intuition told me that if this relationship got normalised, it would always be a problem. I snooped in his electronic messaging; was able to see hardcopy credit card statements around his place and decided that since I was the gf; since I was making sacrifices to be his gf (she's the one who goes home to her bf after they see each other, not vice versa) that this woman had no place in my life.
> 
> This is how "friendzoned" relationships get started and carry on.
Click to expand...

Yet another perfect example of what im talking about. Keeping himself in the friend zone caused issues later. Its not worth it. YOU CANT BE FRIENDS WITH SOMEONE YOU WANT TO BANG! It only causes issues later on for yourself and others.


----------



## tech-novelist

naiveonedave said:


> you are missing the malicious side of some of these relationships. The girl acts the GF until anything remotely sexual is about to happen. But hugs, dates, rotate my tires, shoulder to cry on, all mostly for her benefit. This is actually very common today. A lot of teenaged girls who have been taught their whole life that they can have it all attempt to friendzone boys, so they always have 'dates', but actually have zero investment in the relationship or just luv the drama. Talk to parents of teen boys who are dating/trying to date. *Some of the time, the women actually do suck.*


I think the problem is sort of the opposite. >


----------



## NextTimeAround

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Yet another perfect example of what im talking about. Keeping himself in the friend zone caused issues later. Its not worth it. YOU CANT BE FRIENDS WITH SOMEONE YOU WANT TO BANG! It only causes issues later on for yourself and others.


The problem in our discussion is separating the three audiences in a friendzone triangle and deciding who's responsible for what.

People who are in the position that I was in get called jealous, insecure, paranoid, controlling. I'm telling my husband who he can be friends with and so on. this is one reason why friend zoning lasts as long as it does. I've seen on other message boards men assuming women are just jealous and defend having their female friend.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

personofinterest said:


> Boy, you have an odd and insulting view of women. I don't eat much ice cream, and I don't talk about people's fashion sense. Heck, I don't even know anything about the Real Housewives.
> 
> And did you just imply he was gay because he didn't want to jump his friend's bones?
> 
> Yikes.


Its not odd at all in my personal experience. 

No, I was simply implying that he probably is just your typical beta orbiter (male girlfriend). If he is gay though, that would make sense too.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

NextTimeAround said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet another perfect example of what im talking about. Keeping himself in the friend zone caused issues later. Its not worth it. YOU CANT BE FRIENDS WITH SOMEONE YOU WANT TO BANG! It only causes issues later on for yourself and others.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem in our discussion is separating the three audiences in a friendzone triangle and deciding who's responsible for what.
> 
> People who are in the position that I was in get called jealous, insecure, paranoid, controlling. I'm telling my husband who he can be friends with and so on. this is one reason why friend zoning lasts as long as it does. I've seen on other message boards men assuming women are just jealous and defend having their female friend.
Click to expand...

There is a clear difference in the two though. I have OS friends, I don't want to bang them. Like, at all no matter how drunk I could get. This is pretty clear to anyone who looks at our friendship and is equally clear to my wife. She has no issue of course. Might as well be hanging out with one of my bros or my sister. There is zero threat and she knows this. That is why there is no issue at all there.

Then there are some who its obvious there is an attraction there between friends. Its like when coworkers are trying to keep it a secret they are fooling around. Everyone in the office knows it regardless of their efforts to keep it secret. Why? Because this stuff is pretty obvious to practically everyone. If you see this, you walk away or demand they cut ties altogether. There is nothing wrong with protecting your relationship from a threat. That is far from controlling. Anyone who says it is, they are basically just trying to justify the friendship they have with someone they lust after. 

Lastly there is the jealous controlling person. If you are with that person, that is on you. If you can't even go get milk at the grocery store without questions and you want to be in a relationship with that person, I don't really feel sorry for you.


----------



## NextTimeAround

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Lastly there is the jealous controlling person. If you are with that person, that is on you. If you can't even go get milk at the grocery store without questions and you want to be in a relationship with that person, I don't really feel sorry for you.


I knew that would come up. Of course, I want my husband spending an evening with his female BFF, paying for everything including car service and discussing how he should BETTER mange his relationship with me.

Of course, that's acceptable behavior.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

NextTimeAround said:


> TheDudeLebowski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly there is the jealous controlling person. If you are with that person, that is on you. If you can't even go get milk at the grocery store without questions and you want to be in a relationship with that person, I don't really feel sorry for you.
> 
> 
> 
> I knew that would come up. Of course, I want my husband spending an evening with his female BFF, paying for everything including car service and discussing how he should BETTER mange his relationship with me.
> 
> Of course, that's acceptable behavior.
Click to expand...

No, I would put you in the second paragraph, not the last one. I wasn't accusing you of being controlling, sorry if I didn't make that clear. I was pointing out what a controlling person looks like. Again. Read the paragraph before that last one, I would place you in that space. You either walk, which you said you almost did yourself, or you put an end to that friendship to protect your relationship. I don't think that is controlling the other person at all.


----------



## personofinterest

NextTimeAround said:


> I knew that would come up. Of course, I want my husband spending an evening with his female BFF, paying for everything including car service and discussing how he should BETTER mange his relationship with me.
> 
> Of course, that's acceptable behavior.


He must have deleted that part. I didn't read him saying that.

Hyperbole is a poor debate tactic.


----------



## NextTimeAround

personofinterest said:


> He must have deleted that part. I didn't read him saying that.
> 
> *Hyperbole is a poor debate tactic.*


If you look up my posts, you will see that I am not being hyperbolic.

He did spend more money on her even each time he saw her than he did for me. I dated him 18 months before he offered to pay for taxi while I can see in the messages he regularly did that for her.

He also would get me to pay by claiming he couldn't get to the cash machine, could I get this this time? I see him reassuring her that he will have the cash ready for the taxi when she arrives. AND this was when he knew she was doing online dating.

She advised him to dump me.
He asked me questions that she wanted answers to: ie how long had I been divorced? How much money do I make?

2 years after the fact my husband admitted that she did tell him to make me for more things when we're together. But it's ok for him to close 3 figure bar tabs when out with her and her friends.

Do I need to give more examples to convince you that I'm not over stating her behavior?


----------



## NextTimeAround

personofinterest said:


> He must have deleted that part. I didn't read him saying that.
> 
> Hyperbole is a poor debate tactic.


This could be why so many people are sanguine about the friend zone set up. It's difficult to imagine how nasty / manipulative / predatory / etc. human beings can be.

I also noticed that when she learned that I might have cancer, she favorably compared the state of her health to min "Well, at least it's not cancer." (She is only 21 years younger than I am.)


----------



## personofinterest

NextTimeAround said:


> This could be why so many people are sanguine about the friend zone set up. It's difficult to imagine how nasty / manipulative / predatory / etc. human beings can be.
> 
> I also noticed that when she learned that I might have cancer, she favorably compared the state of her health to min "Well, at least it's not cancer." (She is only 21 years younger than I am.)


Sounds like a horrible horrible woman.

The hyperbole is still a poor debate tactic.

In between avoiding all OS contact and buying a woman dinner and starting an affair is something called middle ground. That is where more people live.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Your husband went along with the friend zone in hopes that he could bang her, end of story. She may have been a predator, but he was willing to be her prey if she ever decided to jump his bones. To place all the blame on her for their relationship is foolish. Likewise, to place all the blame on her because your husband is easily manipulated by someone who is clearly out to manipulate others is also foolish. He takes most of the blame in all of this in my eyes. He could have cut her off, he could have realized he was being played, he could have been a better man than he was. Simple fact is, he chose to go along with everything just hoping like crazy she would give him the ride of his life. But somehow that is all her fault right?


----------



## NextTimeAround

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Your husband went along with the friend zone in hopes that he could bang her, end of story. She may have been a predator, but he was willing to be her prey if she ever decided to jump his bones. To place all the blame on her for their relationship is foolish. Likewise, to place all the blame on her because your husband is easily manipulated by someone who is clearly out to manipulate others is also foolish. He takes most of the blame in all of this in my eyes. He could have cut her off, he could have realized he was being played, he could have been a better man than he was. Simple fact is, he chose to go along with everything just hoping like crazy she would give him the ride of his life. But somehow that is all her fault right?


He did cut her off, but I had to ask him to do it. Because of what I said above, I had to go through some soul searching. So this is why on message boards, I talk about these things so other people don't have to put with this as well or as long once they have identified the problem.

I do get annoyed when I think about my husband's "agency" in this matter, but now we've been together for 8 years, so going thorugh this process was worth it. Not to mention, I guess everyone has a little bit of PA in them, I wasn't going to let this be easy for his so called friend.

I think these types of relationships are signs of the time. People want to know the pros and cons of OSFs, so they try them out..... and to varying degrees. 

I don't have a problem with OSFs in principle, but my partner's OSF has to prove to me it's above board. I like the wisdom here, all your friendships need to be a friend to your marriage / LTR as well.


----------



## Buddy400

*Re: Can someone explain &quot;friend zoned&quot; to me, please?*



Ikaika said:


> I rarely assume movies reflect real life. In fact some movies that have bordered on this topic actually reflect a good reason to take out a restraining order. But, what do I know.


Movies rarely represent real life. Nobody would watch them, you can experience that yourself.

Movies are, however, often a representation of how people (men, women or both) would *prefer* life to be.

So they can tell you quite a bit about people's hopes, dreams and impressions.


----------



## NobodySpecial

*Re: Can someone explain &quot;friend zoned&quot; to me, please?*



Buddy400 said:


> Movies rarely represent real life. Nobody would watch them, you can experience that yourself.
> 
> Movies are, however, often a representation of how people (men, women or both) would *prefer* life to be.
> 
> So they can tell you quite a bit about people's hopes, dreams and impressions.


Guns and explosions?


----------



## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> One thought I had that came up as a result of this thread. If I were hanging out with a man who thought men and women can't be friends, sort of the why be friends with women when I have male friends thought pattern, and that all women are good for is ****ing, I would want to KNOW. That is a person I would not want to hang out with at all, friend or otherwise.


I think you're being extreme in attributing to men who don't think that men and women can be friends the opinion "that all women are good for is ****ing".

I mentioned to my wife that men were only interested in women because of the possibility of a sexual relationship.

She: "I'm glad you're different" 

Me: "I'm not"

She "So, you're only interested in me for sex?"

Me: "No, you're my best friend, smart as whip and there's no one I'd rather have a conversation with or spend time with than you. You are far more to me than a sex partner. However, if it hadn't been for the possibility of a future sexual relationship, I never would have gotten to know you"

So, I do believe men and women can't be friends but I also don't think women are only good for ****ing.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Many posters here believe that EAs don't last long before they go PA ..... so that supports the belief that men don't spend much time around women without the promise of sex.


----------



## personofinterest

If friend zone meant os friendships between married/committed people, the affair spin would be central.

Friend zone is a dating term. Not an affair term.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> I think you're being extreme in attributing to men who don't think that men and women can be friends the opinion "that all women are good for is ****ing".
> 
> I mentioned to my wife that men were only interested in women because of the possibility of a sexual relationship.


And I am telling you that not all men feel this way. When I say that, men on here tell me it is not true. I have no reason to believe you and not them.


----------



## Buddy400

wilson said:


> While I can totally understand how you can do these things with men and not have any romantic feelings, it's less likely for the men. If a man is going rollerblading, hiking or dancing with a woman, he's not viewing you 100% as a friend. *There is some aspect for him that is sexual*. It doesn't necessarily mean he's hitting on you. It may be that he just likes the feeling of doing stuff with pretty women. Regardless, doing that stuff with you is not like doing that stuff with his guy friends.


More specifically, he may not be acting like a friend only because he hopes to have sex with you, but if offered, he'd accept.

Women keep thinking that this isn't so (eww, men can't really be like that!), but it is.

The only exceptions I've seen involve men who already have more sexual opportunities than they can handle with and particularly enjoy female friendship.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> More specifically, he may not be acting like a friend only because he hopes to have sex with you, but if offered, he'd accept.
> 
> Women keep thinking that this isn't so (eww, men can't really be like that!), but it is.
> 
> The only exceptions I've seen involve men who already have more sexual opportunities than they can handle with and particularly enjoy female friendship.


<Shrug> If you say so, then you believe it.


----------



## personofinterest

NobodySpecial said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> 
> More specifically, he may not be acting like a friend only because he hopes to have sex with you, but if offered, he'd accept.
> 
> Women keep thinking that this isn't so (eww, men can't really be like that!), but it is.
> 
> The only exceptions I've seen involve men who already have more sexual opportunities than they can handle with and particularly enjoy female friendship.
> 
> 
> 
> <Shrug> If you say so, then you believe it.
Click to expand...

Men who HAVE TO be right are sooooo attractive.


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## Buddy400

*Re: Can someone explain &quot;friend zoned&quot; to me, please?*



NobodySpecial said:


> Guns and explosions?


For men?

For young men especially?

Yes. Of course.


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## NobodySpecial

personofinterest said:


> Men who HAVE TO be right are sooooo attractive.


I was on the phone recently with a friend who is going to teach me to roll a kayak. I am sitting here trying to fathom something other than conversations about the relationship between carbs and protein in diet, politics, religion, kayaks, hiking and children. And yah. No.


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## NextTimeAround

What's important here is to know what's possible in human nature so when things aren't going well in a situation, the time it takes to identify the problem is far shorter.

I have created some rules in terms of how I will interact with friends. One of them is that I will not go out with my husband if my friend doesn't bring a date herself. Now, I have broken that rule with one woman a few times because I just don't have those problems with her. But should I meet again a woman who shows a little too much interest in my husband, then I know some ways in which to close this problem down.


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## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> And I am telling you that not all men feel this way. When I say that, men on here tell me it is not true. I have no reason to believe you and not them.


Of course I'm not saying that ALL men are this way and I understand that you aren't saying that ALL men aren't.

We're talking majority, minority, percentages, etc.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any scientific surveys that could be used to buttress either of our case (and if there were, a single study or two shouldn't be enough to convince anyone of anything).

But, I can assure you that SOME percentage of men are like this and understanding this may (or may not) be helpful somewhere along the line.


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## NobodySpecial

*Re: Can someone explain &quot;friend zoned&quot; to me, please?*



Buddy400 said:


> For men?
> 
> For young men especially?
> 
> Yes. Of course.


I was talking about me!


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## Buddy400

personofinterest said:


> Men who HAVE TO be right are sooooo attractive.


Have I lost all my attraction now?


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## TheDudeLebowski

The thing I've noticed about OS friends is they don't just pop up out of nowhere like a SS friend has the ability to. For example, my OS friend and I have gotten on each other's nerves to the point of not speaking to each other for weeks at a time. In her case, tears because I was such a jerk to her (I'm not sorry, she needed to hear what I said). There wasn't ever any sexual attraction, not at all. Never will be either. However, she has taught me things that are invaluable.

Also speaking of EAs and what you can learn about yourself and your spouse by posting on a forum, guess what, same holds true for IRL friends. If I ***** to my guy friends about an issue with my wife, I get the standard guy response "yeah bro, these *****es are crazy" where as if I speak to my OS friend about it, she will flat tell me if I'm justified, need to compromise, or if I'm straight up being an *******. That is invaluable advice. As a man, you almost never get that from other guys. You rarely get it from a family member. They all have your back. I credit a lot of her verbal slaps to the face to bring me to a place of reasoning. 

Now some will say discussing my relationship issues with another woman is out of bounds. What I would say to that is what are your intentions? If you want to ***** in order to simply vent frustrations without care of what the OS friend thinks of you personally, I don't see an issue. After all, I'm sure she's thought to herself "good Lord what a piece of work this guy is. I feel sorry for his wife" and I don't care if she thinks that. Where as if you are painting a false picture to make yourself look good and ease your APs guilt by hooking up with you, the dialogue will be very different about your relationship. You will always paint yourself as the good person under some tyrannical rule by your spouse. 

So with my OS friend, yes, I speak about my marriage. She is quick to tell me when I'm being an insufferable POS and I should count my lucky stars my wife puts up with a sum***** like me. She will also tell me when I have a legitimate complaint, and also tell me when there is room for either me, my wife, or both of us to compromise and come to an agreement or a place of understanding. 

Guys dont have talks like this. We just don't. So my OS friend has been very valuable to me and a friend of my marriage, even if she isn't a friend of my wife's. She is certainly an advocate for my marriage and repeats to me as often as she can that I should be very thankful I have a smart and beautiful wife because I guess I can be "an arrogant sob with a sick sense of humor and a bit of a dark side" lol. Which I can't honestly say that is a bad assessment. Pretty spot on really. 

The point is this OS friend works because we don't want to bang each other. There is nothing there at all regarding that. Nobody is choosing their words wisely, or scared to upset, or trying to impress, or paint any sort of picture. With that comes the ability of me as a man calling her on her BS that women can't recognize as BS because they are women. Likewise her calling me on my BS that I can't recognize as BS because I'm a man. 

When people say stuff like "the sister I never had" it sounds cliche, but this is the case for us. We fight like brother and sister one moment, then we get along like brother and sister next monent. 

The problem is when people try to have OS friends they want to bang. End of story as far as I'm concerned. That is where all the projection, and suspicion, and false claims of "all men this" and "all women that" come from with OS friends. It all boils down to you, or someone you were/are close to got a little bit beyond friends with an OS person. Now that rule applies to everyone. The only rule I've seen stick regardless of any one particular situation one way or the other is simple... Can't be friends with someone you want to bang. It NEVER works out.


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## naiveonedave

personofinterest said:


> Not if you have the cajones to actually ask the girl out and find out. If she says no or hedges, then she's not interested. If a guy then chooses to analyze every hair flip to gauge for interest, that is really on him. It's the same when the genders are reversed. If a guy has said "we are just friends' and a girl keeps hanging on because "Oh, he bought my lunch. It must meeeeean something," that is on her.


laughable response. Some women give incredibly strong signals (I am sure it goes both ways, but since I am male, I don't really notice the other direction) even though they don't mean it or mean it and are manipulating the guy. I get that you don't want to think women ever do anything wrong, but that is just not the case.


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## personofinterest

> *even though they don't mean it or mean it *and are manipulating the guy. I get that you don't want to think women ever do anything wrong, but that is just not the case.


Ridiculous projection. I know several women who are...shall we say...not nice people. And yes, there are bad women out there. You are choosing to read my posts through your MGTOW/RedPill glasses.

Regarding the bold - if they don't mean it, it's not on them. Period. You don't get to hold people accountable for what they do not even realize they are doing. To be malicious, there has to be intent. Sorry.


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## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> Of course I'm not saying that ALL men are this way and I understand that you aren't saying that ALL men aren't.
> 
> We're talking majority, minority, percentages, etc.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't know of any scientific surveys that could be used to buttress either of our case (and if there were, a single study or two shouldn't be enough to convince anyone of anything).
> 
> But, I can assure you that SOME percentage of men are like this and understanding this may (or may not) be helpful somewhere along the line.


As long as I get information about that in some form so I don't hang out with them, we are all good!


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## uhtred

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that some men act like this. 


Maybe this is just one of these internet language problems. "Is terrible that men mistreat women". Due to the failures of the English language that can mean that "there exist men who mistreat women", or "men in general mistreat women", or "all men mistreat women". These are two utterly different statements. The first is clearly true, the second up for discussion, the third clearly false.

It helps if people include the word "some", "most", or "all" to clarify. 




Buddy400 said:


> Of course I'm not saying that ALL men are this way and I understand that you aren't saying that ALL men aren't.
> 
> We're talking majority, minority, percentages, etc.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't know of any scientific surveys that could be used to buttress either of our case (and if there were, a single study or two shouldn't be enough to convince anyone of anything).
> 
> But, I can assure you that SOME percentage of men are like this and understanding this may (or may not) be helpful somewhere along the line.


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## personofinterest

uhtred said:


> I don't think anyone is disagreeing that some men act like this.
> 
> 
> Maybe this is just one of these internet language problems. "Is terrible that men mistreat women". Due to the failures of the English language that can mean that "there exist men who mistreat women", or "men in general mistreat women", or "all men mistreat women". These are two utterly different statements. The first is clearly true, the second up for discussion, the third clearly false.
> 
> It helps if people include the word "some", "most", or "all" to clarify.


Thing is, when someone MUST post a dozen times basically saying "you may not THINK your male friends want you, but they do. I know better than you," how else does one interpret this?

I mean, is it THAT vital to prove to a stranger that they are smarter or something? It's sad.


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## NobodySpecial

uhtred said:


> I don't think anyone is disagreeing that some men act like this.
> 
> 
> Maybe this is just one of these internet language problems. "Is terrible that men mistreat women". Due to the failures of the English language that can mean that "there exist men who mistreat women", or "men in general mistreat women", or "all men mistreat women". These are two utterly different statements. The first is clearly true, the second up for discussion, the third clearly false.
> 
> It helps if people include the word "some", "most", or "all" to clarify.


I don't even think that line of thinking is mistreatment. There are many women who see men only as partner material. Just different view points rendering some people incompatible with each other for either partnership or friendship.


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## uhtred

Sorry, I was using "mistreatment" just as an example of this type of internet language issue. I wasn't clear. 



NobodySpecial said:


> I don't even think that line of thinking is mistreatment. There are many women who see men only as partner material. Just different view points rendering some people incompatible with each other for either partnership or friendship.


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## Hopeful Cynic

Mr. Nail said:


> This thread has been so mind opening. I'm starting to see the whole friend zone thing as a translation error.
> Men and women friend (verb) in different ways. Men and women view sex in different ways. And the collision of these 4 different things often results in confusion and hurt feelings.
> I don't have time to type all of this out right now but Wow it is a huge revelation and It makes the world make more sense when I put it in this framework.


Me too. I guess what I've learned most is that women genuinely believe that by uttering that one phrase "let's just be friends" that men can instantly turn off their sexual attraction and be content to be treated the way the women treat their girlfriends.

But instead of figuring out that this is what women truly believe, men either hide their ongoing attraction and fake the friendship in the hopes that the women will change their minds, or decide that the women are deliberately manipulating the ongoing sexual attraction to get favours, while most women are oblivious to either possibility happening. Those two possibilities are rarer than men think, but do happen just enough to act like a bit of intermittent conditioning reinforcement.

Then on top of that confusing dynamic, if the man won't take no for an answer and cooperate and behave like a girlfriend, or just leaves because of honestly feeling like mere friendship would be awkward for him with that sexual attraction present, the women get disgusted that men are pigs and only want one thing.

And even more on top of that, some women don't want to genuinely be friends at all, but have been socialized to let men down easy instead of possibly making them angry, so they say "let's just be friends" what they really want is for the guy to just go away peacefully. Then when he doesn't, they have to be meaner, to make him give up, which just reinforces the whole concept.


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## NextTimeAround

> Me too. I guess what I've learned most is that women genuinely believe that by uttering that one phrase "let's just be friends" that men can instantly turn off their sexual attraction and be content to be treated the way the women treat their girlfriends.


We as women are taught to believe a guy "when he says he's not looking for anything serious." No matter how much time he spends with us ; how much money he spends on us; how much introduces us to friends and family and so on.....

And this is also why it's important for women to hear or read "I love you."


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## personofinterest

"Original Post

This thread has been so mind opening. I'm starting to see the whole friend zone thing as a translation error. Men and women friend (verb) in different ways. Men and women view sex in different ways. And the collision of these 4 different things often results in confusion and hurt feelings. I don't have time to type all of this out right now but Wow it is a huge revelation and It makes the world make more sense when I put it in this framework."

It's almost as if......men and women are DIFFERENT! Whoda thunk it??


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## Edo Edo

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder how you determine someone is using to gain favor or sex? How do you know someone is being underhanded? I mean I have had tons of men try to get in my pants with less than perfect honest behavior. When I say no, that means no. What's the thing?



But there's more than one kind of "no". There's a "hard no" in which it's very clear that something will never happen. Then there's the soft or "wishy washy no" in which is very easily portrayed as much as a "maybe another time" instead of a "never". The next step is to find a reason for the "wishy washy no". If she is just shy or is afraid of hurting a man's feelings, but likes his company, that's more innocent and understandable. However, if she likes someone else more but want's to keep him on hold for a time (because she likes whatever non-sexual benefit he brings to the table) while she figures out the other dude, that's more "friend zoning." 


I haven't gotten through the vast majority of the pages of this thread yet, but I thought of something after reading this post that might help to explain "friend zone" vs. "opposite sex friends" (at least from a guy's perspective). I've had good female friends and others who have "friend zoned" me. I'll try to portray the difference with examples...

- If you can reach out to spend time together that day, chances are that you are friends. If you have to schedule hanging out at least a few days beforehand every single time, you are most likely "friend zoned."

- If she gives you advice on how to be successful dating other women, you are friends. If she constantly dismisses your interest other women without a solid reason, you are most likely "friend zoned."

- If she calls to spend time together as often as you do, you're most likely friends. If you are always reaching out, you are most likely "friend zoned."

- If she pays her way anytime or most times you go out, you are friends. If she is constantly finding new and exciting excuses that you should pay for her, then you are most likely "friend zoned."

- If she points out an attractive woman to you to check out, she's a friend. If she gets mad if you appreciate the aesthetics of another woman while with her, you are most likely "friend zoned." 

- If she dresses for the occasion to hang out (good or bad), she is likely a friend. If she gets very made up, with nice clothes, push up bra, etc. to look her best each time you hang out together, you are most likely "friend zoned."

- If you know it's no big deal if you let slip a burp or fart in her presence, she's a friend. If you fear her reaction, you are most likely "friend zoned."

- If you can tell her you got laid last night and she's happy for you and asks for details, she's a friend. If you tell her you got laid last night and she chastises you, or worse - ghosts you for awhile, then you are most likely "friend zoned."


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## NextTimeAround

I agree with most of what you wrote. However, the remark below, I see it totally opposite:



> - If you can reach out to spend time together that day, chances are that you are friends. If you have to schedule hanging out at least a few days beforehand every single time, you are most likely "friend zoned."


People who are high priority to me I can schedule time with them some into the future and keep the date because I value the time spent with them.

Someone whom I will only see at the last minute is someone lower on my priority ladder. I can say yes to something last minute because It's less likely that something better will come along at that late date.

I don't stand people up or cancel at the last minute (tantamount to standing someone up in my book). 

I don't normally deal with someone who only sees me on a last minute basis. And other people can make same decision if I were to last minute them as well.


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## Cletus

Edo Edo said:


> However, if she likes someone else more but want's to keep him on hold for a time (because she likes whatever non-sexual benefit he brings to the table) while she figures out the other dude, that's more "friend zoning."


Back when I was dating, that was called "keeping your options open".

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## greeneyedlily

Hmmm... lots to think about on this thread. So if a man spends a fair amount of time with you, talks to you about anything and everything, hugs you and says he loves you- but sometimes goes dark on you for days- is it possible you are just being friend zoned?

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