# A Thread For Wayward/Wandering/Disloyal Spouses



## Affaircare

Okay based on some discussion in LRGirl's other thread (Can posters please not condemn WS for the sake of it!) I've decided to open this thread specifically for the spouses who had an affair or are thinking about having an affair. 

In this thread, we all understand that we can not "MAKE" people speak respectfully, but we do *ask* that folks who post on this thread:

1. Give WS/DS's this one thread to post what they honestly think and feel without being lambasted. Lambasted=breaking TAM terms of service by calling names or being verbally abusive or being like a troll and flaming....

2. Honesty is ENCOURAGED. That means that when WS's speak what's honestly in their head it may be hurtful to hear and read, but if we don't know what they really think or feel, we can't point out the inaccuracies, fallacies, fantasies, etc. 

3. If someone writes something that triggers you due to what your own spouse did or said, don't take it out on the poster. If it belongs to your spouse, take it there. If it belongs to you, deal with yourself. 

4. Acknowledge right now that a lot of what a new WS/DS posts is going to be very hard to read, very fogged in, very upsetting. You will want to yell and stomp and scream...heck sometimes I DO!!  But do what I do: before you post that, walk away. Maybe it's just not your night to reply to someone who needs help showing them there is a way. 

5. Not every WS/DS who posts here will be repentant--especially at first. There's a lot of bad info "out there" to justify what they're doing and why. We may be the only folks saying out loud that what they're doing is wrong and encouragin them to do the right thing! Right now divorce is "no fault" and people hear "the kids will adjust" and just all kinds of :bsflag: So let this thread be ONE PLACE...One Thread where even an non-repentant WS/DS could come and be shown that there is a way to stop the madness, keep mom and dad with the kids, build a loving marriage, and actually build happiness THAT WAY. If they have a hard heart we'll figure that out soon enough. 

6. If you are a WS/DS thinking of posting here, just know this. You are not going to be encouraged to continue your affair. You are not going to hear that "you deserve to be happy" or that infidelity is "a love story." An affair has *nothing* to do with Love. You're going to hear THE TRUTH that no one is telling you. So if you're here the okay to cheat--please don't bother. But if you're here to wrestle with it...if you're REALLY tempted...if you want to quit but can't seem to do it...this may be the place for you. 

Finally, if this thread gets out-of-hand I'll just delete it. I'd rather have periodic spots where we WS's can help in other threads, than to have this one spiral into a hurtful place. Let's TRY to keep this thread...


----------



## AnnieAsh

[Vent] Right now I hate being married. Hate it hate it hate it. I'm frustrated and sad and lonely. And he's telling me how lucky I am to have such an awesome house and children. I should be grateful. I AM grateful. I'm also about 2 seconds from chucking his laptop into the bushes and cranking the sprinklers. 

I'm not supposed to complain because I am the one who went outside the marriage. But my tongue hurts from biting it. 

Whew. [Vent off] Thanks AC!


----------



## FourtyPlus

AnnieAsh said:


> [Vent] Right now I hate being married. Hate it hate it hate it. I'm frustrated and sad and lonely. And he's telling me how lucky I am to have such an awesome house and children. I should be grateful. I AM grateful. I'm also about 2 seconds from chucking his laptop into the bushes and cranking the sprinklers.
> 
> I'm not supposed to complain because I am the one who went outside the marriage. But my tongue hurts from biting it.
> 
> Whew. [Vent off] Thanks AC!


What would you say if you didn't have to bite your tongue?


----------



## AnnieAsh

FourtyPlus said:


> What would you say if you didn't have to bite your tongue?


Heh probably some things that aren't so kind. I feel really let down as a wife. Starved for attention and sex. If I could find a way to phrase it correctly, I'd tell him that I am feeling really vulnerable to breaking NC. And that I'm about to stop trying to compete with that stupid computer. 

Yesterday I went shopping for myself. I spent more money on myself that one trip than I have combined in the last 2 years. The new clothes and crap was nothing but a distraction. So I felt good. Then I woke up this morning and just felt LOW. 

And he said oh you spent X amount? Good job. And that was IT.


----------



## FourtyPlus

Not knowing what your actual situation is, have you asked your husband for more attention and sex?


----------



## SomedayDig

I've read this so many times from you Annie. It makes me sad. It makes me sad cuz I know how much work Regret put into our reconciliation and how hard you have tried in yours.

His disconnect is, well...honestly, it's baffling to me.

I mean, I like my computer and games and stuff, but when my girl gets home and the kids get off the bus - I turn this dumb soul sucker off. I want to be with them.

Funny that you and Regret treat yourselves in much the same manner. She finally told me, albeit in a nice tone, that it hurt her the way I talked to her at times regarding her affair. She had bitten her tongue for about 10 months. And as nice of a dude as I am, I was venomous when I spoke to her about it. However, she finally told me how it made her feel. I sat and listened. I won't say I've been perfect, yet I can say that my venom stopped easily by about 90%.

She also does the shopping thing to pick herself up and she inevitably has the down feeling that you had this morning. She doesn't do it as much as she did during her affair. That's a good thing.


----------



## The-Deceived

AnnieAsh said:


> [Vent] Right now I hate being married. Hate it hate it hate it. I'm frustrated and sad and lonely. And he's telling me how lucky I am to have such an awesome house and children. I should be grateful. I AM grateful. I'm also about 2 seconds from chucking his laptop into the bushes and cranking the sprinklers.
> 
> I'm not supposed to complain because I am the one who went outside the marriage. But my tongue hurts from biting it.
> 
> Whew. [Vent off] Thanks AC!


Let me get this straight. You cheated on your husband, he took you back, and now you're miserable being married and resent him and are angry at him.

Why in the holy f*ck are you still married?? (Not attacking you - I'm genuinely confused).


----------



## SomedayDig

You need to read her full back story, man.


----------



## Affaircare

Annie~

I can really identify with how you're feeling. Before my affair, I had a miscarriage and then we had medical tests that showed we could no longer have children. It was just an age thing, but still...devastating. I wanted to turn TO my husband for comfort, and he wanted to escape. It felt like he wanted to escape ME. So I was starving for attention and the connection that can come with sex, and I came into the room stark raving naked and he didn't even notice or look up. A piece of me just gave up, and shortly thereafter I thought: "Well I have interests of my own that he doesn't share. While he does his thing, I'll do my thing. It's healthy to have individual interest, right?" What I didn't realize is that when you have an interest or a hobby that EXCLUDES your spouse...you are doing damage to your marriage. AND I began my slip down the slippery slope. 

So I hear ya. 

There are kind of two things you can do about about this and both are pretty much about you (not him). One thing you gotta remember is that no matter what you do--nagging, threatening, etc.--you can not change him. You can only change you. 

SOOOO...that being said, I know that one thing that's not utterly your strength is speaking up for yourself. So the first thing you can do about this is to screw up your courage, plan what you're going to say, and speak up for yourself. It doesn't have to be aggressive or raging--just state your truth. Share where you're at and what you think and feel. I personally suggest W-T-F-S: 
"WHEN YOU.... (without blame identify the action involved)
I THINK... (state things you think inside your own head)
I FEEL... (state your feelings)
SO I'D LIKE TO REQUEST... (ask for what you need)."​You're a smart cookie so I'm going to have some faith that you can fill in the blanks and kind of get this speech going in your head. When you have it ready--take a deep breath and go talk to him. No need to turn it into a fight...just say your thing and if he tries to blame you or get angry, just say "I wasn't saying this to start a fight. I was just sharing where I'm at and asking for what I need. If the answer is no you can say no, but please give me an alternative that you ARE willing to do." 

The second thing you can do actually is about how you think. Remember how, with the OM, I suggested that every time he popped into your head you'd think of that stop sign and remind yourself (like "out loud" in your head) that he was not wonderful, fabulous, etc but was actually someone who was willing to help a person destroy a family? It was sort of "retraining your thinking" to remind yourself of the "bad" qualities of the OM and also remind yourself of the "good" qualities of your husband. Well...same/similar here. Part of your issue right now is that you are looking at life from a perspective kind of like "What I COULD HAVE." As an example "I could have a man who pays attention to me" or "I could have a man who wants sex with me" or "I could have a friend" etc. Okay...you could have those things! But right now you don't, and you are focusing on what you DON'T have rather than what you DO. 

Now I'm not saying your husband is a prince. He's got some issues--I'm just saying! But you know what? My husband is ill and can not work AT ALL. That means that all of the earning falls on me, and that burden is HEAVY!! I can't remember the last time I bought new clothes for myself--we can't afford it. We also can't afford to play WoW right now. We can't afford little vacations. Our house is old and needs work. Our dryer is broken. Our transmission is going out. Our truck is old. We are paying bills and rent but literally have zero left over....and YOU have a husband who GIVES you a nice house, brand new and pretty. You can decorate it, plant what you want where you want or paint it if you like. You could be new rugs or new curtains. If you see some clothes you like, you just get them and don't have to worry! You can have your nails done and your hair done--oh my god such luxury I would only dream of! 

I bet he has a couple of other "good" qualities too. I bet he's very loyal and dedicated. I bet he's dependable...and probably responsible. Okay, he is not a guy who is sensual or gushy romantic. He's not ill. He's kind of clueless to the whole "women need time and attention" thing meaning he knows it and has been told it but has no clue how to do that! But it's like two sides to the same coin: he IS what he IS and he's NOT what he's NOT. And part of your thinking is focusing on what he's not. 

For me, my Dear Hubby is NOT a good provider. in fact, since he's ill, he doesn't help me around the house much either--I do the vast majority of household chores including mowing the lawn and fixing the car. That is not who my Dear Hubby is, and as long as I focus on "what I'm not getting" (or what I COULD have), I'd be pretty unhappy, wouldn't I? But my Dear Hubby IS a friend. He is funny and smart and playful. He is very gentle and kind. He is extremely dedicated and committed. He is musical and philosophical and likes to stay home rather than go out. He is WHO HE IS, and I've just chosen to look at the things he IS and appreciate them (not that I'm ignoring what he's not). I have made the choice to see the things in him that I like and by doing that, I have also chosen to be happy where I am. 

Make sense? So change YOU. Speak up for yourself and focus on the things he IS...things about him that you like.


----------



## Affaircare

The-Deceived said:


> Let me get this straight. You cheated on your husband, he took you back, and now you're miserable being married and resent him and are angry at him.
> 
> Why in the holy f*ck are you still married?? (Not attacking you - I'm genuinely confused).


Actually this is a legitimate and good question--or at least I think so! First, for a little background, Annie began an EA, was feeling a bit guilty but had sort of justified it to herself, and when she came here we showed her the smarts of telling her husband the truth. 

Second, what so many folks don't really want to hear is that affairs don't happen in a vacuum. Someone caught her eye *partly* because of vulnerability due to the issues already happening in her marriage and *partly* because of some generally bad info that's out there in society like "You deserve better" or "Do what makes you happy." Well...being ignored by your porn-addicted spouse doesn't make her happy, and frankly that's reasonable. 

So nope--having an affair is not the moral choice and it was 100% her responsibility. Good for Annie! She did the right thing and told her husband the truth! But that in no way means that her husband has addressed the issues on his side that sort of made the marriage weak! See, for there to actually be a recovery in the marriage after an affair, the affair HAS TO END (check), the Disloyal has to get out to the fog and learn how to be transparent and share themselves -and- has to work on their own personal issues, and the Loyal has to be willing to forgive and also be transparent -and- has to work on their own personal issues. She can work on her issues all she wants and change herself all she wants, but that in no way means the marriage will survive if he is not willing to address "his stuff."

ETA: Not every Loyal Spouse has big personal issues. Sometimes the Disloyal just really is an immoral, ****ty person! But that's somewhat rare. Most people are imperfect.


----------



## AnnieAsh

SomedayDig said:


> I've read this so many times from you Annie. It makes me sad. It makes me sad cuz I know how much work Regret put into our reconciliation and how hard you have tried in yours.
> 
> His disconnect is, well...honestly, it's baffling to me.
> 
> I mean, I like my computer and games and stuff, but when my girl gets home and the kids get off the bus - I turn this dumb soul sucker off. I want to be with them.
> 
> Funny that you and Regret treat yourselves in much the same manner. She finally told me, albeit in a nice tone, that it hurt her the way I talked to her at times regarding her affair. She had bitten her tongue for about 10 months. And as nice of a dude as I am, I was venomous when I spoke to her about it. However, she finally told me how it made her feel. I sat and listened. I won't say I've been perfect, yet I can say that my venom stopped easily by about 90%.
> 
> She also does the shopping thing to pick herself up and she inevitably has the down feeling that you had this morning. She doesn't do it as much as she did during her affair. That's a good thing.


The shopping was literally to make myself feel better and it only worked for a short time. It's so DEPRESSING. Now I have new clothes and underthings and I feel like staying in bed all day. 

Venom would be preferable to his ignoring me. He's never been an outwardly angry guy. He withdraws into himself. But at what point can I say, hey this is no longer acceptable. Be here or get out. 

And ugh the computer. The porn. It's killing me. I want to HELP him. It is hurting his health and I worry about him at work. Sitting out in vehicles in the dark, staring at your phone, with bad guys prowling around. In his line of work, he'll get hurt or killed. 


The-Deceived said:


> Let me get this straight. You cheated on your husband, he took you back, and now you're miserable being married and resent him and are angry at him.
> 
> Why in the holy f*ck are you still married?? (Not attacking you - I'm genuinely confused).


 Yes. Had an EA. Confessed it AND the two times om broke NC. I'm angry because he has chosen porn over me for the last freaking year. I'm angry because lack of sex makes me irritable. 

I'm married because we have children and a house and a new niece coming that I want to see. We have family. He has a mother who depends on me and that I love dearly. My mother adores and spoils him. He's very close to my brother. Oh and the biggie. I may not be "romantically" in love with him, but I LOVE J. He's the father of my girls! That is huge!


----------



## TCSRedhead

I would say that a lot of us feel as if that because we f'd up colossally, we have no right to speak up or say anything negative, essentially we become a doormat. 

So, all the issues and things that existed pre-A become even worse essentially.

It took a while for me to realize that we could either have our pre-A marriage (which wasn't good at all) or a new one which would only work if we were BOTH involved in fixing it.

This meant me owning every piece of my failures, him owning his and both of us working on fixing that.

Is it perfect? No. Is it better, yet. Will we continue to work on it, yes. Would I stay if we weren't, no. The one thing I've stated (and he agrees with) is that neither of us will accept going back to that state.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Affaircare said:


> Annie~
> 
> I can really identify with how you're feeling. Before my affair, I had a miscarriage and then we had medical tests that showed we could no longer have children. It was just an age thing, but still...devastating. I wanted to turn TO my husband for comfort, and he wanted to escape. It felt like he wanted to escape ME. So I was starving for attention and the connection that can come with sex, and I came into the room stark raving naked and he didn't even notice or look up. A piece of me just gave up, and shortly thereafter I thought: "Well I have interests of my own that he doesn't share. While he does his thing, I'll do my thing. It's healthy to have individual interest, right?" What I didn't realize is that when you have an interest or a hobby that EXCLUDES your spouse...you are doing damage to your marriage. AND I began my slip down the slippery slope.
> 
> So I hear ya.
> 
> There are kind of two things you can do about about this and both are pretty much about you (not him). One thing you gotta remember is that no matter what you do--nagging, threatening, etc.--you can not change him. You can only change you.
> 
> SOOOO...that being said, I know that one thing that's not utterly your strength is speaking up for yourself. So the first thing you can do about this is to screw up your courage, plan what you're going to say, and speak up for yourself. It doesn't have to be aggressive or raging--just state your truth. Share where you're at and what you think and feel. I personally suggest W-T-F-S:
> "WHEN YOU.... (without blame identify the action involved)
> I THINK... (state things you think inside your own head)
> I FEEL... (state your feelings)
> SO I'D LIKE TO REQUEST... (ask for what you need)."​You're a smart cookie so I'm going to have some faith that you can fill in the blanks and kind of get this speech going in your head. When you have it ready--take a deep breath and go talk to him. No need to turn it into a fight...just say your thing and if he tries to blame you or get angry, just say "I wasn't saying this to start a fight. I was just sharing where I'm at and asking for what I need. If the answer is no you can say no, but please give me an alternative that you ARE willing to do."
> 
> The second thing you can do actually is about how you think. Remember how, with the OM, I suggested that every time he popped into your head you'd think of that stop sign and remind yourself (like "out loud" in your head) that he was not wonderful, fabulous, etc but was actually someone who was willing to help a person destroy a family? It was sort of "retraining your thinking" to remind yourself of the "bad" qualities of the OM and also remind yourself of the "good" qualities of your husband. Well...same/similar here. Part of your issue right now is that you are looking at life from a perspective kind of like "What I COULD HAVE." As an example "I could have a man who pays attention to me" or "I could have a man who wants sex with me" or "I could have a friend" etc. Okay...you could have those things! But right now you don't, and you are focusing on what you DON'T have rather than what you DO.
> 
> Now I'm not saying your husband is a prince. He's got some issues--I'm just saying! But you know what? My husband is ill and can not work AT ALL. That means that all of the earning falls on me, and that burden is HEAVY!! I can't remember the last time I bought new clothes for myself--we can't afford it. We also can't afford to play WoW right now. We can't afford little vacations. Our house is old and needs work. Our dryer is broken. Our transmission is going out. Our truck is old. We are paying bills and rent but literally have zero left over....and YOU have a husband who GIVES you a nice house, brand new and pretty. You can decorate it, plant what you want where you want or paint it if you like. You could be new rugs or new curtains. If you see some clothes you like, you just get them and don't have to worry! You can have your nails done and your hair done--oh my god such luxury I would only dream of!
> 
> I bet he has a couple of other "good" qualities too. I bet he's very loyal and dedicated. I bet he's dependable...and probably responsible. Okay, he is not a guy who is sensual or gushy romantic. He's not ill. He's kind of clueless to the whole "women need time and attention" thing meaning he knows it and has been told it but has no clue how to do that! But it's like two sides to the same coin: he IS what he IS and he's NOT what he's NOT. And part of your thinking is focusing on what he's not.
> 
> For me, my Dear Hubby is NOT a good provider. in fact, since he's ill, he doesn't help me around the house much either--I do the vast majority of household chores including mowing the lawn and fixing the car. That is not who my Dear Hubby is, and as long as I focus on "what I'm not getting" (or what I COULD have), I'd be pretty unhappy, wouldn't I? But my Dear Hubby IS a friend. He is funny and smart and playful. He is very gentle and kind. He is extremely dedicated and committed. He is musical and philosophical and likes to stay home rather than go out. He is WHO HE IS, and I've just chosen to look at the things he IS and appreciate them (not that I'm ignoring what he's not). I have made the choice to see the things in him that I like and by doing that, I have also chosen to be happy where I am.
> 
> Make sense? So change YOU. Speak up for yourself and focus on the things he IS...things about him that you like.


AC gets her own post cuz I love her! 

J is not mushy or sentimental. I write all the cards around here lol. He complements me where I am weak. He is very calm and rational and methodical. That's why we are a great team. While I am very organized when it comes to my house and schedule, I am very emotional and ummm mercurial.  So I KNOW our marriage works on a practical basis. But emotionally it is SO lacking. 

I AM grateful for what I have materially. I don't ask for things (for myself.) Yesterday was the first time I splurged on myself since last July. I usually buy myself one or two things at a time. And many times he has to FORCE me to. Can we say holes in the butt of your skinny jeans are very embarrassing! And I've never gotten my nails done in my LIFE! 

We are well-to-do NOW. It wasn't always so. I used to buy enough meat to feed him and our oldest while I ate ramen. I saved fresh fruit for them and I ate frozen or canned stuff. I am focused on what I don't have. When I lacked material things or FOOD, I didn't really notice. But I keenly feel the lack of emotional connection. 

I know your husband is not well and he is blessed to have you taking care of him. You humble me. 

We've talked about what I need. We were doing so WELL for a bit. So he can't say he doesn't know. I just think he doesn't WANT to deal with it. He wants things to be calm and smooth and content.


----------



## lookingforsupport

I'm a WS. I messed up badly and DDay was a month ago. We are in R, but some days are much better than others.

Today is a bad day. Bad bad bad. All of her anger and hate of me has been flowing for 5 hours straight via IM, text, etc. I can't get anything done at work, and I just feel like a total loser. All of my worst negative feelings about myself are trapped inside me, the guilt, the remorse, and depression, the self-loathing, and more. Therapy is tomorrow but I need to let this out now before it hurts too much. Not sure this will help, I have serious doubts, but I have to try something where I can be emotionally honest and let the outside match what's inside me.

Thanks for reading. Do any WS or BS have ideas about how to work through this pain?


----------



## AnnieAsh

lookingforsupport said:


> I'm a WS. I messed up badly and DDay was a month ago. We are in R, but some days are much better than others.
> 
> Today is a bad day. Bad bad bad. All of her anger and hate of me has been flowing for 5 hours straight via IM, text, etc. I can't get anything done at work, and I just feel like a total loser. All of my worst negative feelings about myself are trapped inside me, the guilt, the remorse, and depression, the self-loathing, and more. Therapy is tomorrow but I need to let this out now before it hurts too much. Not sure this will help, I have serious doubts, but I have to try something where I can be emotionally honest and let the outside match what's inside me.
> 
> Thanks for reading. Do any WS or BS have ideas about how to work through this pain?


Honestly, the constant analyzing and picking over of my shame/remorse/guilt feeds into it. Right after I confessed, I found that doing nice things for my husband and children helped. I was focusing on THEM rather than me and even for a few hours, I wasn't think about om or what a horrible person I am. 

She's angry and betrayed and hurt. How do you respond to her messages?


----------



## megmg

Lfs. .. You need to get the negative feelings you have inside yourself out in the open, not sure about therapy probably better discussing this with your BS. the only way to get through the pain is to live it I'm afraid , you have to suffer some of what you have made BS suffer, a month out and your getting venom, accept it, there is more to come if you truly want R then that's part of it I'm afraid, you need to show your BS you remorse and guilt . (Don't ask me how on this were all individual and have to work that one out for ourselves)

guilty , remorse , self loathing are all part of the process , probably say most WS on here felt/feel the same 

Try writing down what you feel, your BS will probably throw it straight back in your face but further down the line it may help with understanding how/what you feel. 

Once done get back to supporting your BS as they need you to be patient and understanding right now.

Good luck


----------



## Whenwillitend

I am a BS and I understand the anger of some members of TAM but I was also the WS with every girl I ever dated before I met my wife so I understand the other side all to well. Thanks to Dig and Regret I am trying to work things out after realizing there are other options to D or being a cuckold. I have a sister that went the D way after her husbands PA and I have parents that worked it out after my dad had several PAs. I don't condone the behaviour of a WS but I think it is important to learn what goes through the mind of a WS. I for one could have used the insight a long time ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FourtyPlus

lookingforsupport said:


> I'm a WS. I messed up badly and DDay was a month ago. We are in R, but some days are much better than others.
> 
> Today is a bad day. Bad bad bad. All of her anger and hate of me has been flowing for 5 hours straight via IM, text, etc. I can't get anything done at work, and I just feel like a total loser. All of my worst negative feelings about myself are trapped inside me, the guilt, the remorse, and depression, the self-loathing, and more. Therapy is tomorrow but I need to let this out now before it hurts too much. Not sure this will help, I have serious doubts, but I have to try something where I can be emotionally honest and let the outside match what's inside me.
> 
> Thanks for reading. Do any WS or BS have ideas about how to work through this pain?


The pain and guilt are going to get less with time only. Realizing that I still have something to bring to the table helped me rebuild a little confidence, knowing that I'm not a total screw up. It doesn't take the pain or guilt away but it might give you a boost here and there. You're asked to do the heavy lifting in this, how are you going to do this if you don't have any muscles? I did things just to hear someone say "thank you" or "good job" and it made me feel like I can still be a good person, I still have at least _some_ value.


----------



## lookingforsupport

AnnieAsh said:


> Honestly, the constant analyzing and picking over of my shame/remorse/guilt feeds into it. Right after I confessed, I found that doing nice things for my husband and children helped. I was focusing on THEM rather than me and even for a few hours, I wasn't think about om or what a horrible person I am.
> 
> She's angry and betrayed and hurt. How do you respond to her messages?


Yes, that totally resonates. I have been a housekeeping machine since DDay, and taking care of as much of the pickup/dropoff/bedtime work as I can to let her feel cared for and let her know where my heart is. It also helps me with my anxiety, which definitely creeps up from time to time and can become crippling.

As for her messages, I usually respond with a combination of I love you and I'm sorry, and not much more. Hard to have anything productive to say.


----------



## lookingforsupport

megmg said:


> Try writing down what you feel, your BS will probably throw it straight back in your face but further down the line it may help with understanding how/what you feel.
> 
> Once done get back to supporting your BS as they need you to be patient and understanding right now.
> 
> Good luck


That's really helpful. I actually took a couple of the worst things and wrote a response to them in an email I sent to myself. I need to think hard about how to raise them with her, and whether I need to do that. 

But yes, supporting her feels great.


----------



## ScrewedEverything

I am a WS, although "A**hole," "idiot," "scumbag" and other labels seem more appropriate. 4 years into our R things are not going so well. I have done all the right things but I've also done everything wrong. I owned my crime, I live a totally transparent life and cut myself off from anything that might possibly give her pause so that she might be able to regain a little bit of trust, I've made my life all about her and consciously stifling all selfish thoughts/actions,I do all the little things everyday to tell/show her that I love her, I gladly take any/all household/parenting responsibilities from her shoulders. I've done everything I am capable of to try to help her feel that it is safe to love me but in the process I've become a doormat, a non-person and haven't given her any reason to love me.

My crime defines me and everything I do. I know that's counterproductive but at the same time I don't feel like I have the right to behave or perceive of myself in any other way.

Now she's in love with someone else. It doeesn't appear to be reciprocated, it may not ever become physical, and it's a much younger, much more troubled, person that she could never have a lasting relationship with. But she feels the way she feels; she can't help it and I can't blame her. She loves me but is not "in love with" me at this point. She has been honest with me to a point. She openly admits that she had propositioned this guy at one time and that she flirts and texts with him but says that nothing is going to happen and I should get over it. At the same time, I know she has told her close friend that she wants to have a physical relationship with someone other than me, if not with this guy then with someone else. This devastates me but I feel no anger or resentment, after all, I caused all this and put her in the position she's in.

On one level she has come to accept and forgive my crime and is moving on with life, having realized that my betrayal and shame is not hers. The hurt and anger is never far from the surface. She has "forgiven" but she wil never ever forget.

I don't think she wants a D and she works hard at maintaining the facade of a happy relationship with me. We still kiss, cuddle, have regular sex, go on "dates." Our kids would probably tell you that we were embarassingly tight. That's the way it looks on the outside. At the same time her heart is clearly elsewhere and she is living for herself: buying whatever she wants, going out with friends whenever she wants, spends ALL of her time texting and facebooking with her crush and other friends, virtually ignoring the kids and I. I don't know if this is a healthy phase of her recovery from what I did to her - overcoming the pain, being happy with herself again and enjoying life - and that once she exercises her wings she will come back to us a happier and better person. Or is she just done with the marriage and going her own way while keeping up a great facade for the sake of the kids and everyone else (including herself) who would damaged by a D. I don't know which is the case and maybe it doesn't matter in terms of what I do. I caused this whole mess and I do need to "get over" her current behaviors, stop the self pity, swallow the hurt, and continue trying to be a better person, husband and father for the long haul. I love her more today I did when we first met, so I can't do anything else.

Sorry for the ramble. Any thoughts?


----------



## CantSitStill

lookingforsupport, I totally understand. It's very hard when they text you with reminders of all the things you did. It hurts knowing we hurt them so bad. I've had many days of feeling paralyzed on the days my husband triggers. Lost a lot of weight, been very depressed. I am now starting to get stronger, and we are 15 months from D-day. I have to keep reminding myself that I am a better person now and am capable of taking care of my family. I still have crying bursts when I think about how ugly I became. It's weird, I keep asking myself how I became a person that I hate. All I know is, it's never too late to change. My husband knows I am determined to never give up on us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Screwedeverything? Are you both in counselling? Listen, yes you betrayed her and I get that but it is up to you if you wanna live the rest of your life miserable, being punished. It gives her no right to see other men. You really need some counselling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

It just appears from what you wrote that neither of you trust eachother at all. Will you ever be happy? Will she?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Affaircare, thank you for creating this thread . I hope it's helpful for us WS' and a success.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Screwed...let me get this straight - forgive me sometimes comprehension on the forum can be tough for me. Anyway, you had an affair and you and your wife reconciled and have been in reconciliation for 4 years. She, however, is now in "love" with someone else AND spends most of her time texting him, facebooking, going out all the while ignoring her family?!

THAT doesn't sound like reconciliation.

It sounds like someone with an axe to grind.

Yeah, you screwed everything, but it seems that she wanted to reconcile the marriage - you've done what you should be doing - and now she's being a cake eater who "isn't in love with you anymore".

If you are not upset or angered by this, yet still want to be married, I'd suggest an open marriage. However, even then understand that as soon as she finds someone "better", she's gonna dump you and the kids and sow her wild oats while feeling entitled to do so.

That. Is a really sucky story.


----------



## MattMatt

And whilst I can understand ignoring you, why ignore the children? WHEN DID THEY cheat on her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doubletrouble

My wife had a PA on me. As angry as I was, and all the other emotions that ran through me, I never once considered going out and screwing someone else. And there are lots of opportunities in my old town here. That's NOT what reconciliation is about. R is about returning your (both your) focus to the marriage and being strong with each other again. 

She's doing you this way because she feels she now has the right to, as if her taking you back now gives her carte blanche to do the same to you. That's totally wrong and quite immature. Obviously she won't see it that way.

Two wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## Hope1964

Screwedeverything, if I felt that way about my marriage and my husband, I couldn't stay. (my husband cheated)

You guys REALLY need MC. We've been in it for almost 3 years and I don't know how we could be together if we weren't. We've worked through some really tough issues with our MC help.

No way do you have to 'get over' her trying to cheat on you. You guys are not in R, you're both in denial. She about the depth of her true hurt, and you about the fact she probably will never be able to be the wife she was before you cheated.


----------



## ScrewedEverything

Dig,

Reconciliation is probably an overstatement, we each did individual counselling for about 6 months after I cut off and confessed the betrayal and then MC for about another 6 months but then stopped. Our communication improved tremendously and things were getting better between us. Her anger/trigger episodes seemed to be getting fewer and farther between (I don't expect that ever goes away). Beside what I had done, her biggest personal demon has always been her weight. About a year ago she started doing CrossFit in a local gym and it's really done miracles for her. She lost over 40 pounds and is now a chiseled hardbody. So she's feeling better about herself physically and has new confidence and a group of supportive gym friends who are all equally obsessed with crossfit. I think she just feels like a new person physically and mentally now. she would tell you that she's finally found herself again after years of supressing herself on account of me, her weight and the obligations of motherhood. She sees this as her time to live life to the fullest without regrets or fear.

While there may be an element of revenge in what she's doing with this other guy (who, by the way is a trainer at the gym), I really don't believe that's what's driving her. Ironically, I think she's driven by the same things that drove us weak-willed WS's to stray in the first place - projecting what you want to se on some other meaningless person and deluding yourself that the fantasy feelings of validation, excitement, whatever-you-crave, that you are feeling are real. I can (and do) tell her 20 times a day that she is beautiful and wonderful but it means nothing coming from me, someone else tells her she looks good and it puts her on cloud 9.

Long way of saying I truly believe that she thinks she's in love with this guy and is pursuing him because she can't help the way she feels and because, I having broken the vows already, there is no promise she is bound to keep and she is not doing anything wrong. I don't think it bothers her that this devastates me but I don't believe that's her goal.


----------



## Hope1964

Just because you cheated does NOT mean you have to lie down now and just take it when she does it.


----------



## ScrewedEverything

Matt,

See my reply to Dig. Also, for many years of our marriage I worked a 10-12 hour day then tack on a 90 minute commute. The result was I'd leave for work before the kids were up and not get home until they were going to bed. Other than the weekends she was virtually a single parent. In her mind she certainly was and she often says that I was "absent" and uninvolved. Now she sees this as her time to go out and live and my turn to pick up the load with parenting. I'm glad to do that -- if anything good can come out of my betrayal, it's that my relationship with my kids has gotten much closer and stronger. Unfortunately, she thinks we are all selfishly resentful of her new-found happiness and is determined not to let that hold her back. So, ignoring the kids isn't directly related to what I did, it's justher living her own life for once.


----------



## SomedayDig

ScrewedEverything said:


> Dig,
> 
> Reconciliation is probably an overstatement, we each did individual counselling for about 6 months after I cut off and confessed the betrayal and then MC for about another 6 months but then stopped. Our communication improved tremendously and things were getting better between us. Her anger/trigger episodes seemed to be getting fewer and farther between (I don't expect that ever goes away). Beside what I had done, her biggest personal demon has always been her weight. About a year ago she started doing CrossFit in a local gym and it's really done miracles for her. She lost over 40 pounds and is now a chiseled hardbody. So she's feeling better about herself physically and has new confidence and a group of supportive gym friends who are all equally obsessed with crossfit. I think she just feels like a new person physically and mentally now. she would tell you that she's finally found herself again after years of supressing herself on account of me, her weight and the obligations of motherhood. She sees this as her time to live life to the fullest without regrets or fear.
> 
> While there may be an element of revenge in what she's doing with this other guy (who, by the way is a trainer at the gym), I really don't believe that's what's driving her. Ironically, I think she's driven by the same things that drove us weak-willed WS's to stray in the first place - projecting what you want to se on some other meaningless person and deluding yourself that the fantasy feelings of validation, excitement, whatever-you-crave, that you are feeling are real. I can (and do) tell her 20 times a day that she is beautiful and wonderful but it means nothing coming from me, someone else tells her she looks good and it puts her on cloud 9.
> 
> Long way of saying I truly believe that she thinks she's in love with this guy and is pursuing him because she can't help the way she feels and because, I having broken the vows already, there is no promise she is bound to keep and she is not doing anything wrong. I don't think it bothers her that this devastates me but I don't believe that's her goal.



Ahh, yes - Mirroring.

And with the personal trainer to boot. That is so cliche! LOL I don't mean to make light of the situation, but can you look at your affair and see things and go, "Good God, really? I did that?"

I know you have children, but have you considered divorce?


----------



## ScrewedEverything

Hope,

You're right on a couple points. Yes, we need more MC. I have an appt to see the MC myself next week and hopefully she will join me at some point. Right now, she sees my trouble "getting over it" as something I need to work through myself. (I know that's not a good sign.)

I have no illusions that our marriage will be the same as it was (wouldn't really want it to be) but I may be deluding myself that we can have some sort of functional marriage in the future. That delusion/hope is all I have, so I can't let go of it.


----------



## Hope1964

ScrewedEverything said:


> Hope,
> 
> You're right on a couple points. Yes, we need more MC. I have an appt to see the MC myself next week and hopefully she will join me at some point. Right now, she sees my trouble "getting over it" as something I need to work through myself. (I know that's not a good sign.)
> 
> I have no illusions that our marriage will be the same as it was (wouldn't really want it to be) but I may be deluding myself that we can have some sort of functional marriage in the future. That delusion/hope is all I have, so I can't let go of it.


Have you ever heard of the 180? It teaches you to focus on yourself and detach, so that you can find happiness apart from your spouse, so that no matter if things work or they don't you will be happy.


----------



## ScrewedEverything

SomedayDig said:


> Ahh, yes - Mirroring.
> 
> I don't mean to make light of the situation, but can you look at your affair and see things and go, "Good God, really? I did that?"
> 
> I know you have children, but have you considered divorce?


I realized within days after my affair that it was nothing but mirroring. My greatest shame and remorse is that I destroyed my life and hurt those that I love the most for a stupid, self-indulgent illusion.

I am prepared for divorce if she asks for one but it's not what I want and I don't think she wants one either. My only shot at any shred of redemption for what I did is to make her and the kids happy going forward - as a father and husband, not just as a checkbook.


----------



## Hope1964

ScrewedEverything said:


> My only shot at any shred of redemption for what I did is to make her and the kids happy going forward - as a father and husband, not just as a checkbook.


The kids - yes. Her - no. Not if she's going to act like this.

I repeat: Just because you cheated DOES NOT mean that you have to take it up the you-know-what now. If you are doing everything you say you're doing, and it's 4 years out, then you've paid your dues, man. She's the one screwing things up now.


----------



## ScrewedEverything

Hope1964 said:


> Have you ever heard of the 180? It teaches you to focus on yourself and detach, so that you can find happiness apart from your spouse, so that no matter if things work or they don't you will be happy.


No, can you PM me and give me some info. If I'm ever going to win her love back, I know I need to do it as an independent man and not a grovelling doormat. Willing to try anything.


----------



## Hope1964

ScrewedEverything said:


> No, can you PM me and give me some info. If I'm ever going to win her love back, I know I need to do it as an independent man and not a grovelling doormat. Willing to try anything.


No, I will not, because you aren't supposed to be doing it for her or to win her love back. Until you're doing it for YOU, I won't help you. Sorry.


----------



## CantSitStill

Uggg this is so unhealthy screwed! Yes you cheated on her, I get that but dang it, stop making excuses for her bad behavior! This is so messed up and will only get worse if you don't sit her down and tell her you have boundaries for her also. You both need to work kn your passion for eachother. Sounds like you are trying your best out of guilt and remorse and it's like she is just laughing in your face!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Screwed, I am glad you came here for help, I will be praying for you, be honest with your feelings to the counselor. And let us know how it went and how you are doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

Screwed, something about your description of your wife reminds me of myself, in the sense that I tend to hold grudges and your wife sounds like that. I think it would be helpful to know a few details about your affair. How did she find out? How long did it go on? Were you at any point contemplating leaving your family for OW? I suspect that on some level she doesn't want to be divorced, and part of her may love you, but she doesn't trust you and likely never will. This is the nature of grudge holding, I know this personally. You may be able to build some level of functioning marriage but you have to ask yourself what level of real connection the two of you need that will be acceptable. If she's still spewing venom and looking elsewhere she can't be happy, clearly you aren't happy, and you are modeling this for your kids. I'd bet any attempt by you to set boundaries will be met with something like "you have nerve". Maybe it would be better to separate and go about your lives. It's possible that at some point her anger will get out of her system and if both if you are interested you can evaluate things then. If she was able to move past this you'd know it after 4 years. Sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SaltInWound

ScrewedEverything said:


> So she's feeling better about herself physically and has new confidence and a group of supportive gym friends who are all equally obsessed with crossfit. I think she just feels like a new person physically and mentally now. she would tell you that she's finally found herself again after years of supressing herself on account of me, her weight and the obligations of motherhood. She sees this as her time to live life to the fullest without regrets or fear.


Tell us about these supportive gym friends. 

And while I can understand regaining confidence with weight loss (I recently lost 65 pounds), there is absolutely no excuse for her to forget that she is married and especially that she is a mother. Those children still need her. She is acting selfishly.


----------



## CantSitStill

It's sad that you're making excuses for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

Just some basic facts:

No one deserves to be betrayed, period.
No one deserve to be treated badly in a marriage, period.
It takes two people to be committed to making a marriage work for it to succeed.

If you don't have two partners, committed and working on making this work it will not succeed.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Screwed, my husband went away to his LE academy for 6 months within weeks of our eldest daughter's birth. He missed most of that pregnancy as well. With my baby girl, he worked insane hours. He STILL works insane hours. For all intents and purposes, I function as a single parent for days/weeks/months. 

That DID NOT give me the right to have an EA. Your schedule DOES NOT give your wife the right to mess around with her PT. Just like any rationalization YOU made to have an affair is complete bullpoop, so is hers. It is not ok.

Are you afraid to put your foot down because you had an affair? Or because you think she'll walk? Neither one of you has the right to rip your household apart like that.

Stop letting her conduct her affair in your house and on your dime. If she is messaging or calling him in the house, cut off the phone and internet.


----------



## CantSitStill

Screwed, please don't think we are picking on you, please come back and let us help. I see you are a newly registered member. Sorry if we sounded harsh, but please come back and talk to us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SaltInWound

AnnieAsh said:


> Screwed, my husband went away to his LE academy for 6 months within weeks of our eldest daughter's birth. He missed most of that pregnancy as well. With my baby girl, he worked insane hours. He STILL works insane hours. For all intents and purposes, I function as a single parent for days/weeks/months.
> 
> That DID NOT give me the right to have an EA. Your schedule DOES NOT give your wife the right to mess around with her PT. Just like any rationalization YOU made to have an affair is complete bullpoop, so is hers. It is not ok.


I agree. My husband was in the Navy. For the first 12 years of our marriage, he was never home. Imagine 2 weeks gone every month and then every 2 years he was gone for an additional 6 weeks, then a month later a 6 month deployment. I could have had all kinds of affairs and he would have never found out, but I never did. I was lonely a lot and my love language is physical touch, but I never felt I had a free pass. Annie, I can so relate to being a "single" parent. I hated it.


----------



## brokenbythis

Whenwillitend said:


> I am a BS and I understand the anger of some members of TAM but I was also the WS with every girl I ever dated before I met my wife so I understand the other side all to well. Thanks to Dig and Regret I am trying to work things out after realizing there are other options to D or being a cuckold. I have a sister that went the D way after her husbands PA and I have parents that worked it out after my dad had several PAs. I don't condone the behaviour of a WS but I think it is important to learn what goes through the mind of a WS. I for one could have used the insight a long time ago.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And what if one of the PA partners gets pregnant? How to handle it then?


----------



## courseplotter

_I posted about this before in a thread that got deleted, but it seems appropriate again now. I read this forum because I'm interested in the experiences other people are having and the perspectives of the BS. My views can vary significantly from the BS's on this board and I understand that my situation is uncommon. I'll keep it succinct as possible._

*My Marriage*
When the affair happened, the marriage, was in it's 9th year. We'd been together for over a decade, total. I was pretty young when we got married (early 20s). To be quite blunt, I was never attracted to her physically. I was insecure when we dated and I settled for her because the honest truth is that I didn't think I could do any better.

The marriage was ok at first, but it all went to hell right after the ceremony, but in subtle ways. First, she immediately started to dwindle our sex frequency. And then, the fights we had, even prior to marriage were pretty brutal, though I didn't realize it at the time, being inexperienced with relationships. Usually, it ended with her drastically escalating the fight to outright disrespect and trying to take nasty stabs at my person. It was a technique she picked up from her father (terrible family & household). She was really bad about not taking responsibility for her actions, as well. Being "right" was paramount to everything.

In regards to conflict, it wasn't all her early on, either. She was more sexually active than me prior to our relationship and I had a typical male insecurity about it. I made it a big deal sometimes and that hurt her. Eventually, I got over it and I moved on, but it caused some damage she didn't admit to back then.

Eventually, she went back to school, put our marriage on the backburner for three years and had a couple of EA's behind my back. I figured that out towards the end of the marriage. One or both could have gone PA, but i think that was a low % chance _at that time_. It was during this phase we became pretty distant... started travelling down two different paths emotionally.

Oh yeah, she had another EA at work prior to wrapping up her degree.

Anyway, school got finished, she got pregnant. I figured everything was ok. Wrong-o.

Lastly, I didn't have a porn problem, I didn't put myself in bad situations... I was just miserable with her as a person. And probably, she was miserable with me.

*The Affair*
I met my affair partner at work. She was also married at the time. I was beat down at home and despite holding it together on my end for about 5 years, I finally cracked. I had few emotional boundaries and I let my AP right in. She had excellent concepts of boundaries but had thrown them out the window at that time, as her marriage was also in the toilet. We had an EA that lasted for several weeks before it turned PA. My wife found out almost immediately after the PA began (within days).

*The Fog*
When my wife confronted me about the affair, it didn't lift the fog. In fact, nothing my wife did (180, anger, sadness, moral superiority) lifted the fog. I had developed a real, romantic and loving relationship with my affair partner and it was reciprocated. I wanted my wife out of my life permanently. I had checked out a long time before and the affair was basically my Exit Affair. I had moved on. My wife hadn't and she got very, very hurt.

See, I disagree with Affaircare's notion that an affair will have nothing to do with love. That's not always true. While an affair is a selfish decision to act on a physical desire or an emotional need, it is not an absolute that the relationship formed during the affair is suspect or ill-fated. You can legitimately fall in love with your affair partner and be successful.

*Why I Did It*
Here's the brutal truth a lot of people are looking for:


I did it because I was miserable at home. My (ex)wife was irresponsible, non-accountable, had poor boundaries and had unhealthy views about marriage (I'm only skimming the surface with this one). 
I did it because I met the right personality for a long-term relationship.
I did it because I was too much of a chump to end things the right way at home. I wanted what I wanted right then and I didn't want to deal with the emotional turmoil of proactively ending the marriage.

*So... What's Your Point?*
That marriage is a two way street. The decision to cheat falls on the person doing it, but I think everyone needs to be real: getting to that decision point 98% of the time involves both parties.

I get that the BS creates ways to cope with the loss of their way of life, their emotional connection to a spouse, feelings of humiliation, shame, inadequacy. It's normal. But that doesn't absolve them of taking some responsibility for how the marriage broke down enough to get to the point where the WS decided to cheat.

I think it is unfortunate that the BS typically focuses on the affair/betrayal instead of taking the opportunity to examine why it reached that decision point. My ex-wife made the affair her focus and even though I "knew" the marriage was doomed, her lack of focus on what happened prior confirmed it.

...

Today, I am happily married for several years to my AP. We have kids. We're still ecstatic to be together everyday because we appreciate each other and what a good marriage is. We work at it. We don't repeat the same mistakes. We keep excellent boundaries and do our best to affair-proof ourselves. We are real, personal examples to each other of how well-intentioned people can step outside the lines in the wrong situation. Our lives are completely turned around and we take the opportunity to counsel people who are having marital struggles.

The truth is, I despise cheating, but I would do this one again if I had to. Sometimes the best results come from the worst choices.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

ScrewedEverything: You are completely and totally wrong. Letting her have a revenge affair as a way of dealing with your blame will do nothing to win her back. You're now an enabler for her and she'll continue to lose respect for you.

Tell her that you're trying to own up to your mistake and you're willing to do the heavy lifting to R, but that you will not live in an environment of revenge. It will destroy your marriage and she has to understand that.

If she flatly refuses and continues to blame you, then I'm sorry but that means the marriage is broke and it won't be repaired. At that point you do the 180 and you learn to move on.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

Courseplotter: So you loved your AP and married her. I don't doubt that you do love her. However I will say this: you say that you despise cheating yet you would do it all over again. How do you explain this obvious contradiction? Because you had a successful result. You got what you wanted. And now you are guilt-free because you have put the lion's share of the responsibility for the demise of the marriage onto your ex-wife's shoulders. 

Are you really so sure that there was no blame-shifting on your part?

I'm glad the two of you are happy, and yet perhaps you should face up to the fact that part of that happiness has occurred at your ex-wife's expense. If you can live with that then good, but I sincerely hope that neither you nor your wife minimize the effects of betrayal to the couples you may be counseling.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Courseplotter, with all due respect, one WS to another, this probably isn't the place for you. There are people here in pain, struggling to repair their marriages. 

I agree that affairs don't happen in a vacuum. But as an adult, I won't blame my husband for my actions and I won't take the blame for his. I made my choices.


----------



## FourtyPlus

ScrewedEverything said:


> I am a WS, although "A**hole," "idiot," "scumbag" and other labels seem more appropriate. 4 years into our R things are not going so well. I have done all the right things but I've also done everything wrong. I owned my crime, I live a totally transparent life and cut myself off from anything that might possibly give her pause so that she might be able to regain a little bit of trust, I've made my life all about her and consciously stifling all selfish thoughts/actions,I do all the little things everyday to tell/show her that I love her, I gladly take any/all household/parenting responsibilities from her shoulders. I've done everything I am capable of to try to help her feel that it is safe to love me but in the process I've become a doormat, a non-person and haven't given her any reason to love me.
> 
> My crime defines me and everything I do. I know that's counterproductive but at the same time I don't feel like I have the right to behave or perceive of myself in any other way.
> 
> Now she's in love with someone else. It doeesn't appear to be reciprocated, it may not ever become physical, and it's a much younger, much more troubled, person that she could never have a lasting relationship with. But she feels the way she feels; she can't help it and I can't blame her. She loves me but is not "in love with" me at this point. She has been honest with me to a point. She openly admits that she had propositioned this guy at one time and that she flirts and texts with him but says that nothing is going to happen and I should get over it. At the same time, I know she has told her close friend that she wants to have a physical relationship with someone other than me, if not with this guy then with someone else. This devastates me but I feel no anger or resentment, after all, I caused all this and put her in the position she's in.
> 
> On one level she has come to accept and forgive my crime and is moving on with life, having realized that my betrayal and shame is not hers. The hurt and anger is never far from the surface. She has "forgiven" but she wil never ever forget.
> 
> I don't think she wants a D and she works hard at maintaining the facade of a happy relationship with me. We still kiss, cuddle, have regular sex, go on "dates." Our kids would probably tell you that we were embarassingly tight. That's the way it looks on the outside. At the same time her heart is clearly elsewhere and she is living for herself: buying whatever she wants, going out with friends whenever she wants, spends ALL of her time texting and facebooking with her crush and other friends, virtually ignoring the kids and I. I don't know if this is a healthy phase of her recovery from what I did to her - overcoming the pain, being happy with herself again and enjoying life - and that once she exercises her wings she will come back to us a happier and better person. Or is she just done with the marriage and going her own way while keeping up a great facade for the sake of the kids and everyone else (including herself) who would damaged by a D. I don't know which is the case and maybe it doesn't matter in terms of what I do. I caused this whole mess and I do need to "get over" her current behaviors, stop the self pity, swallow the hurt, and continue trying to be a better person, husband and father for the long haul. I love her more today I did when we first met, so I can't do anything else.
> 
> Sorry for the ramble. Any thoughts?


Alright, so you did cause a mess but that was only up until the time you started turning it around and it looks like you've done everything possible to R. What your wife is doing is her own creation, not yours. She's not entitled to hurt you, she's not entitled to hurt your kids. 
Having a crush on someone else, texting/flirting etc. is not a healthy phase and part of recovery for a betrayed spouse and I'm sorry if this disagrees with any BS. When you R, the goal is to work TOGETHER on a marriage and it doesn't just apply to marriages where betrayal took place.
You are asking if she's just trying to overcome the pain over your betrayeal or if she's done with the marriage. Have you asked your wife that question? I would. I would absolutely ask.
The answer might hurt you but you are already hurting from your own betrayal and from your wife's behavior. Ask her!


----------



## FourtyPlus

courseplotter said:


> _I posted about this before in a thread that got deleted, but it seems appropriate again now. I read this forum because I'm interested in the experiences other people are having and the perspectives of the BS. My views can vary significantly from the BS's on this board and I understand that my situation is uncommon. I'll keep it succinct as possible._
> 
> *My Marriage*
> When the affair happened, the marriage, was in it's 9th year. We'd been together for over a decade, total. I was pretty young when we got married (early 20s). To be quite blunt, I was never attracted to her physically. I was insecure when we dated and I settled for her because the honest truth is that I didn't think I could do any better.
> 
> The marriage was ok at first, but it all went to hell right after the ceremony, but in subtle ways. First, she immediately started to dwindle our sex frequency. And then, the fights we had, even prior to marriage were pretty brutal, though I didn't realize it at the time, being inexperienced with relationships. Usually, it ended with her drastically escalating the fight to outright disrespect and trying to take nasty stabs at my person. It was a technique she picked up from her father (terrible family & household). She was really bad about not taking responsibility for her actions, as well. Being "right" was paramount to everything.
> 
> In regards to conflict, it wasn't all her early on, either. She was more sexually active than me prior to our relationship and I had a typical male insecurity about it. I made it a big deal sometimes and that hurt her. Eventually, I got over it and I moved on, but it caused some damage she didn't admit to back then.
> 
> Eventually, she went back to school, put our marriage on the backburner for three years and had a couple of EA's behind my back. I figured that out towards the end of the marriage. One or both could have gone PA, but i think that was a low % chance _at that time_. It was during this phase we became pretty distant... started travelling down two different paths emotionally.
> 
> Oh yeah, she had another EA at work prior to wrapping up her degree.
> 
> Anyway, school got finished, she got pregnant. I figured everything was ok. Wrong-o.
> 
> Lastly, I didn't have a porn problem, I didn't put myself in bad situations... I was just miserable with her as a person. And probably, she was miserable with me.
> 
> *The Affair*
> I met my affair partner at work. She was also married at the time. I was beat down at home and despite holding it together on my end for about 5 years, I finally cracked. I had few emotional boundaries and I let my AP right in. She had excellent concepts of boundaries but had thrown them out the window at that time, as her marriage was also in the toilet. We had an EA that lasted for several weeks before it turned PA. My wife found out almost immediately after the PA began (within days).
> 
> *The Fog*
> When my wife confronted me about the affair, it didn't lift the fog. In fact, nothing my wife did (180, anger, sadness, moral superiority) lifted the fog. I had developed a real, romantic and loving relationship with my affair partner and it was reciprocated. I wanted my wife out of my life permanently. I had checked out a long time before and the affair was basically my Exit Affair. I had moved on. My wife hadn't and she got very, very hurt.
> 
> See, I disagree with Affaircare's notion that an affair will have nothing to do with love. That's not always true. While an affair is a selfish decision to act on a physical desire or an emotional need, it is not an absolute that the relationship formed during the affair is suspect or ill-fated. You can legitimately fall in love with your affair partner and be successful.
> 
> *Why I Did It*
> Here's the brutal truth a lot of people are looking for:
> 
> 
> I did it because I was miserable at home. My (ex)wife was irresponsible, non-accountable, had poor boundaries and had unhealthy views about marriage (I'm only skimming the surface with this one).
> I did it because I met the right personality for a long-term relationship.
> I did it because I was too much of a chump to end things the right way at home. I wanted what I wanted right then and I didn't want to deal with the emotional turmoil of proactively ending the marriage.
> 
> *So... What's Your Point?*
> That marriage is a two way street. The decision to cheat falls on the person doing it, but I think everyone needs to be real: getting to that decision point 98% of the time involves both parties.
> 
> I get that the BS creates ways to cope with the loss of their way of life, their emotional connection to a spouse, feelings of humiliation, shame, inadequacy. It's normal. But that doesn't absolve them of taking some responsibility for how the marriage broke down enough to get to the point where the WS decided to cheat.
> 
> I think it is unfortunate that the BS typically focuses on the affair/betrayal instead of taking the opportunity to examine why it reached that decision point. My ex-wife made the affair her focus and even though I "knew" the marriage was doomed, her lack of focus on what happened prior confirmed it.
> 
> ...
> 
> Today, I am happily married for several years to my AP. We have kids. We're still ecstatic to be together everyday because we appreciate each other and what a good marriage is. We work at it. We don't repeat the same mistakes. We keep excellent boundaries and do our best to affair-proof ourselves. We are real, personal examples to each other of how well-intentioned people can step outside the lines in the wrong situation. Our lives are completely turned around and we take the opportunity to counsel people who are having marital struggles.
> 
> The truth is, I despise cheating, but I would do this one again if I had to. Sometimes the best results come from the worst choices.


I'm glad your lives are completely turned around and that you won't repeat the same mistakes. It's good to hear that you keep excellent boundaries. 

Sadly, your last paragraph says the exact opposite. You would do this again if you had to. Wow!


----------



## Voltaire

courseplotter said:


> getting to that decision point 98% of the time involves both parties.


So, you consulted your ex-wife before embarking on the affair? 





courseplotter said:


> I get that the BS creates ways to cope with the loss of their way of life, their emotional connection to a spouse, feelings of humiliation, shame, inadequacy. It's normal.


I get the impression that that is just a laundry list of words to you and you have absolutely no idea what actually living through those emotions is like - and nor do you want to. 



courseplotter said:


> But that doesn't absolve them of taking some responsibility for how the marriage broke down enough to get to the point where the WS decided to cheat.


I'm afraid that you are trying to justify cheating by using the state of the marriage as an excuse. When a marriage is in the toilet a spouse has at least 3 choices:
1. address the issues with their spouse
2. end the marriage honourably
3. turn to others for comfort, which usually leads to EA if not PA

Choosing to cheat is a conscious response to a particular situation. The situation does not CAUSE the cheating (any more than poverty causes crime or drug addiction - these are the result of personal choices). Blaming the circumstances for a personal decision as to how to deal with those circumstances is simply a way to try to excuse a poor decision. 




courseplotter said:


> I think it is unfortunate that the BS typically focuses on the affair/betrayal instead of taking the opportunity to examine why it reached that decision point.


 This is a misrepresentation. The marriage does not reach a "decision point". The WS reaches a decision point - and makes a decision to have an affair. 

Anyway, why are you concerned with what the BS focuses on after it's all over? Are you simply desperate for them to turn around and say "yes, it's 50% my fault that you had an affair"? 




courseplotter said:


> My ex-wife made the affair her focus and even though I "knew" the marriage was doomed, her lack of focus on what happened prior confirmed it.


Of course she made the affair her immediate focus because this is what caused her huge pain. You seem unwilling or unable to acknowledge this. I hope that in due course she reflected on what happened during her marriage and why she ever maried a man who wasn't even physically attracted to her when they married and who "settled" for her. 

But perhaps she appears to you to be obsessed with the affair rather than thinking about prior events in the marriage because she holds on to the hope that some day you will show some remorse for what you put her through. I guess "I was too much of a chump to end things in the right way" is the best she is ever going to get.




> The truth is, I despise cheating


Let's just let that one hang in the air for a second.....




> Sometimes the best results come from the worst choices.


Best for you. What about everyone else?


----------



## ubercoolpanda

Hm I'm not sure if this is the right thread for me but id like to share some input as my mother married her AP also. It was her sisters husband, and the affair lasted around a year (which they both still deny but I read all the texts etc) and his wife was pregnant with their third child! 

Well, they got married and literally all of our family disowned us. None of us agreed with what she did, in fact I hate her for it but you only get one mother right. 

They got married nearly 4 years ago. And seriously, all this stuff about "the fog being lifted" etc IS actually true. Because after literally a year their relationship had shrivelled to nothing. My mum has left him at least 7 times, rang the police on him and lied that he hit her! But they still stay together because everyone will say "i told you so." 

My mum says in the beginning he was different and has now "changed" (I don't think he's changed, I think the fog has now been lifted so she sees everything for how it really is.) money matters, children etc they have completely different views on EVERYTHING and that's why they argue so much. They blame shift wayyyyy too much. My mothers justification is that "there were marriage problems with his wife anyway so he would have end up divorcing her." 

I'm moving out of the home in a month and I'm giving them 6 months tops.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

courseplotter said:


> *So... What's Your Point?*
> That marriage is a two way street. The decision to cheat falls on the person doing it, but I think everyone needs to be real: getting to that decision point 98% of the time involves both parties.
> 
> I get that the BS creates ways to cope with the loss of their way of life, their emotional connection to a spouse, feelings of humiliation, shame, inadequacy. It's normal. But that doesn't absolve them of taking some responsibility for how the marriage broke down enough to get to the point where the WS decided to cheat.
> 
> I think it is unfortunate that the BS typically focuses on the affair/betrayal instead of taking the opportunity to examine why it reached that decision point. My ex-wife made the affair her focus and even though I "knew" the marriage was doomed, her lack of focus on what happened prior confirmed it.


Like Annie said and I agree, the decision to cheat involves one person...the one cheating. You seem to have blinded yourself since you've married your AP and things are great. I'm curious as to what your former wife would say though about taking any of the blame for your affair. I can say with relative certainty that she call you on bullsnot.

It's good that you were honest in your reasons, however, you should probably look a little deeper at YOUR reasons you cheated and not just the outside influences.


----------



## CantSitStill

Courseplotter, it is also possible that you and your AP will not make it. Most don't
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Also, someone said something about me getting caught and not confessing my EA, hubby had his suspicions but I told him. He asked and I told him. I also refused to stop contacr with the exOM and that is when he kicked me out. I went to my sisters. I did not see the exOM when I was out of the house and when husband wanted me to come back home, I realised how much my husband really loved me. So I came back home and we have been working on things since. Before I came home I texted the exom to get rid of me from his contact list and off facebook. Anyway we are still working on our marriage and have been for the past 15 months. I have learned so much and cherish my husband with all my heart. Hate what I did and hate what I put him through. Day by day we are healing together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mineforever

Courseplotter - so you would do it all over again...cause all the pain to your spouse to get the partner you want. Why not end the first relationship first then go find a new partner....avoid causing additional pain of betrayal to your first spouse. She would have just had to accept that the marriage didn't work out not that you betrayed her. Your point about the affair relationship lasting....well maybe your part of the 2 percent that stay together long-term.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## courseplotter

I tried to respond categorically.



Voltaire said:


> When a marriage is in the toilet a spouse has at least 3 choices:
> 1. address the issues with their spouse
> 2. end the marriage honourably
> 3. turn to others for comfort, which usually leads to EA if not PA


I agree.






Voltaire said:


> I'm afraid that you are trying to justify cheating by using the state of the marriage as an excuse.





Voltaire said:


> Choosing to cheat is a conscious response to a particular situation. ... Blaming the circumstances for a personal decision as to how to deal with those circumstances is simply a way to try to excuse a poor decision.





Voltaire said:


> The marriage does not reach a "decision point". The WS reaches a decision point - and makes a decision to have an affair.





Voltaire said:


> Of course she made the affair her immediate focus because this is what caused her huge pain. You seem unwilling or unable to acknowledge this.


Well, there is usually a reason things build up the "affair decision". While having an affair is the wrong method of coping, citing the poor state of a marriage as frustration prior to an affair doesnt mean it is being used as an excuse. They are usually tied together, yet they need to be addressed seperately when trying to move forward.

An excuse would be: "you did (x) so I decided to have sex with someone else". That's a big leap.

Acknowledging the overall situation looks more like: "our marriage was in the tank because of (x). I felt like (x) and it led me to being tempted in this way. I made the wrong decision by acting on it. We should discuss how we got to this point."

And then from there the BS makes the decision to do one of the following:

1. Focus on overall repair by addressing A.accountability within the marriage and B. the WS' affair.
2. Focus entirely in the affair
3. Rugsweep

I've seen many threads here where the marriage cannot heal because the affair is the primary focus - long term.






Voltaire said:


> But perhaps she appears to you to be obsessed with the affair rather than thinking about prior events in the marriage because she holds on to the hope that some day you will show some remorse for what you put her through.


This is a tough one to convey without going into personal details that I can't reveal on a forum. Not only did I feel remorse, I made tremendous effort to communicate it. It just wasn't accepted. My ex stated that she wanted to repair the marriage, but was unwilling to discuss anything prior to the affair and made the marriage's failures entirely my problem.

In the end, it was best for both parties to move on.






PreRaphaelite said:


> ...perhaps you should face up to the fact that part of that happiness has occurred at your ex-wife's expense.


I don't believe that passed me by.






PreRaphaelite said:


> ...you say that you despise cheating yet you would do it all over again. How do you explain this obvious contradiction?





FourtyPlus said:


> Sadly, your last paragraph says the exact opposite. You would do this again if you had to.


I apologize. I should have written that statement more clearly. Let's try it again:

I despise cheating. I am not proud of myself for my behavior at that time in my life. But I understand how a person gets to the point where they just don't care. It takes a lot. In my case, if I went back and undid everything to do it the "right way", I probably wouldnt have the same children that I have now and I wouldn't take any of that back. I also wouldnt create the possibility of missing out on the excellent marriage I have now. But, these are things that I "know" now.

That said, I know how I should have done things the right way. It's a shame that I didn't, but it happened and now we all have to make the best of our choices. That's my responsibility now. Hopefully that makes sense.






Voltaire said:


> Best for you. What about everyone else?


I think that's a great clarifying question. Let's say that you have a marriage where emotional or physical abuse is involved and neither party is willing to make a move to end the relationship because of fear or pride. Or, maybe they don't even understand why the relationship is detrimental - they just know they feel "off". Instead of counseling, they choose an affair.

Well, sometimes when one person makes a move, even the wrong move, it's the best outcome for everyone, despite the pain of an affair. That's not a justification, it's just a potential end result.

While that wasn't my case exactly, the notion is the same.


----------



## ScrewedEverything

UPDATE:
Had a discussion with my wife last night. It didn't start out as a talk about life, love, betrayal and where her head is at, but it went there. Turns out her new best friend/gym buddy broke it to her that the trainer she has a crush on doesn't feel the same way about her. She told me this, I think, as a reinforcement to her previously stated position that "nothing is going to happen and you need to get over it." I tried to explain that I've never been particulary concerned about what might happen because it wasn't a situation with any long term prospects. I wanted to explain that my hang up wasn't that she might have sex with him, it's that she had already fallen in love with him and it hurts badly when the person you love loves someone else. Never got to that second part though. As soon as I mentioned "no long term prospects" she blurted out that she's not looking for anything other than a short term thing and then explained that she's found herself again after too many years of suppressing herself for me and the kids, therefore, "I am going to do what makes me happy now and you all can just go to hell if you don't like it." End of conversation.

I have much more I'd like to get off my chest and I appreciate all of the input I've gotten from you as I'm trying to figure out what to do. I'm going to have limited opportunity to post between now and Monday, so I hope we can pick this up again next week. I have a 4 hour car ride coming up with my wife and son this afternoon and then a weekend together in a hotel together. Not sure what will happen.


----------



## courseplotter

mineforever said:


> so you would do it all over again...cause all the pain to your spouse to get the partner you want.


I just tried to clarify that in my last post so it seemed less insensitive. I know I've left a lot of emotion out of my posts, but that is intentional.



mineforever said:


> Why not end the first relationship first then go find a new partner....avoid causing additional pain of betrayal to your first spouse. She would have just had to accept that the marriage didn't work out not that you betrayed her.


Absolutely, that would have been best.



mineforever said:


> Your point about the affair relationship lasting....well maybe your part of the 2 percent that stay together long-term.


Right. It's not common. Probably because we went into our affair for different reasons than the ones who are simply looking for a thrill or some side action.

To be sure, we are fortunate that we worked out.


----------



## Voltaire

Thanks, courseplotter, for sticking around and posting further. I respect you for that at least. 


courseplotter said:


> They are usually tied together, yet they need to be addressed seperately when trying to move forward.


Yes but you always seem to mention them together as if they are inextricably linked - so you'll understand why people get the impression taht you think that one justifies the other.



courseplotter said:


> An excuse would be: "you did (x) so I decided to have sex with someone else". That's a big leap.
> 
> Acknowledging the overall situation looks more like: "our marriage was in the tank because of (x). I felt like (x) and it led me to being tempted in this way. I made the wrong decision by acting on it. We should discuss how we got to this point."


Again, that comes across as "I'm not giving an excuse I'm giving a reason". But whatever you call it the impression is that you are avoiding responsibility and blameshifting. 

No one here would doubt that your marriage was in trouble and that your wife contributed to that. Every one gets that, so there is no need to keep repeating it. The question here is solely about your decision to be unfaithful. you alone own that - but you seem unwilling to own it.

One reason that you should own that decision is that whilst you are in denial you are undermining your current relationship. That can only thrive when you are 100% honest with yourself. If you are not, it will catch up with you eventually. 





courseplotter said:


> I've seen many threads here where the marriage cannot heal because the affair is the primary focus - long term.


That's in the context of R - but your initial post made little or no mention of R - it just said that you walked out on her to be with your AP. 

Also, how long did you give her to "get over it" and focus on the stuff you wanted to focus on? Please don't tell me you gave her a week or two and then just expected her to put it behind her. It takes months and months to get over that. 

I wonder if you were rushing the R because your heart really wasnt in it as you wanted to be with AP. 




courseplotter said:


> I think that's a great clarifying question. Let's say that you have a marriage where emotional or physical abuse is involved and neither party is willing to make a move to end the relationship because of fear or pride. Or, maybe they don't even understand why the relationship is detrimental - they just know they feel "off". Instead of counseling, they choose an affair.
> 
> Well, sometimes when one person makes a move, even the wrong move, it's the best outcome for everyone, despite the pain of an affair. That's not a justification, it's just a potential end result.
> 
> While that wasn't my case exactly, the notion is the same.


You are resorting to hypotheticals, which again gives the impression that you are avoiding responsibility. Straight question: was it best for everyone in your particular case?


----------



## SomedayDig

ScrewedEverything said:


> UPDATE:
> Had a discussion with my wife last night. It didn't start out as a talk about life, love, betrayal and where her head is at, but it went there. Turns out her new best friend/gym buddy broke it to her that the trainer she has a crush on doesn't feel the same way about her. She told me this, I think, as a reinforcement to her previously stated position that "nothing is going to happen and you need to get over it." I tried to explain that I've never been particulary concerned about what might happen because it wasn't a situation with any long term prospects. I wanted to explain that my hang up wasn't that she might have sex with him, it's that she had already fallen in love with him and it hurts badly when the person you love loves someone else. Never got to that second part though. As soon as I mentioned "no long term prospects" she blurted out that she's not looking for anything other than a short term thing and then explained that she's found herself again after too many years of suppressing herself for me and the kids, therefore, "I am going to do what makes me happy now and you all can just go to hell if you don't like it." End of conversation.
> 
> I have much more I'd like to get off my chest and I appreciate all of the input I've gotten from you as I'm trying to figure out what to do. I'm going to have limited opportunity to post between now and Monday, so I hope we can pick this up again next week. I have a 4 hour car ride coming up with my wife and son this afternoon and then a weekend together in a hotel together. Not sure what will happen.


Take the weekend to think about things, man. Then, when you come back - start your own thread so that people can give you insight.


----------



## courseplotter

Voltaire said:


> you always seem to mention them together as if they are inextricably linked - so you'll understand why people get the impression taht you think that one justifies the other.


They usually are. I observe that most people want to gloss over how things get to the point where bad decisions are made. The decision to have an affair is simply one of several choices once you arrive that point. If it were the only choice a person had, then I would call it justified (but we know that it is never the only choice).




Voltaire said:


> The question here is solely about your decision to be unfaithful. you alone own that - but you seem unwilling to own it.


I'm not sure how you get that. I completely own that decision. I just never chose to disregard how I arrived to that point. It is still cause and effect. You have a bad marriage, you get in a position of temptation. The choice once there is your own. 



Voltaire said:


> One reason that you should own that decision is that whilst you are in denial you are undermining your current relationship. That can only thrive when you are 100% honest with yourself.


I'm completely honest. That's why my marriage is successful today.




Voltaire said:


> That's in the context of R - but your initial post made little or no mention of R - it just said that you walked out on her to be with your AP.


Actually, I never gave a timeframe nor did I say that I walked out.




Voltaire said:


> Also, how long did you give her to "get over it" and focus on the stuff you wanted to focus on? Please don't tell me you gave her a week or two and then just expected her to put it behind her.


Months. Thus my frustration for the unwillingness for discuss what happened prior to the affair.

Looking back, I know now my heart wasn't truly in the R by the end and I wanted to be out regardless of who my next relationship was with. At some point, I am sure she realized that and shut down. But not before there was time to have a real movement towards resolution.




Voltaire said:


> Straight question: was it best for everyone in your particular case?


Straight answer: yes.


----------



## Hope1964

SomedayDig said:


> Take the weekend to think about things, man. Then, when you come back - start your own thread so that people can give you insight.


I totally agree. You need your own thread.

I also am glad you haven't left. You sound so hopeless. You've resigned yourself to a life of just taking whatever your wife dishes out to you because you cheated in the past. She sounds like a horrible person.


----------



## sdcott

Hello,
I read this as the BS because I am still searching for understanding of how the WS deals with and views the events as well. My husband has reached the point of I don't want to talk about it anymore. He had a PA but not really emotionally invested. If he thought he was, spending time with here towards the end melted any attachment as he saw who she really was. Then he said he felt trapped and did not want to disappoint her as he was afraid of what she might do. All very screwy coming from someone with a strong leadership and military bearing. Not currently active duty.


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Hope1964 said:


> I totally agree. You need your own thread.
> 
> I also am glad you haven't left. You sound so hopeless. You've resigned yourself to a life of just taking whatever your wife dishes out to you because you cheated in the past. She sounds like a horrible person.


She is as horrible as any of us WS. I'm sure in her head she is rationalizing and compartmentalizing and doing everything that every one this thread is intended for has done. But as I try to remind myself every day, making horrible choices doesn't mean I have to be a horrible person. I can, with work, support, and guidance, learn from those horrible choices and better prepare myself to consistently make good choices going forward.

I think that ScrewedEverything will definitely benefit from his own thread, and as we all know, there is NO excuse/justification/reason for cheating or simply treating your spouse with so little regard. You are still currently a team. If she wants to do whatever she wants with no consideration for you and the kids, then she needs to leave and be single and a part-time parent.

I know the struggles of trying to figure out your place once you are a cheater. What do you deserve? What does your BS deserve? What is it ok to accept/tolerate and what becomes something that a former wayward has the right to not accept and ask to be changed? It's a paradox because anything we ask in that situation is hypocritical based on our own previous actions. I wish I could offer you some real insight, SE, but I know I would be in the same position as you if Matt chooses to connect with someone else.


----------



## TCSRedhead

sd - some questions for you:

How long ago was this? 
Have you gotten to ask all the questions you wanted to ask?
Does he still work with/near her?


----------



## CantSitStill

I feel WS' do lose rights, as in no privacy and to be transparent and to let their spouse make the choice whether to leave or stay, but being abused mentally or physically are not acceptable. Especially for 4 yrs...Did I get that right? 4yrs? It's not worth staying in a marriage like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

For us, the transparency is all around. He has my passwords, I have his. This keeps us both in check. I think we also both have a say in whether each of us stays or goes as well. If we aren't both committed and working to make it, it will fail. 

There is no reason for any type of abuse, period.


----------



## courseplotter

Sorry, I just now saw this or I would have replied earlier. I thought you deserved a reply.



SomedayDig said:


> I'm curious as to what your former wife would say though about taking any of the blame for your affair.


I've got some responses up the page that deal with the core of this comment. But directly, I've never been interested in blaming her for my decision. She didn't make that decision.



SomedayDig said:


> ...you should probably look a little deeper at YOUR reasons you cheated and not just the outside influences.





SomedayDig said:


> You seem to have blinded yourself since you've married your AP and things are great.


I don't think there is anything blind about it. We know the stats and we did look deeper. We know why we ended up in an affair. That's the key to addressing whatever part of yourself that needs fixing.

I'm realize that I'm writing this in a pretty frank kind of way now, but it took me several years to understand what internal and external factors led to that behavior.


----------



## SomedayDig

Truth is, we all live our reality and in the end that is all that matters. Honestly, you didn't need to respond to me as you did answer in your other replies. Again, as long as you're at peace, that's all that really matters.


----------



## FourtyPlus

CantSitStill said:


> I feel WS' do lose rights, as in no privacy and to be transparent and to let their spouse make the choice whether to leave or stay, but being abused mentally or physically are not acceptable. Especially for 4 yrs...Did I get that right? 4yrs? It's not worth staying in a marriage like that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't see these things as rights I have lost but rather as things are part of being married. Yes, I do close the door when I use the bathroom but that's about the only privacy I really want and need. Yes, I'm transparent but I kind of expect the same from the spouse I cheated on. Yes, he has the right to leave and so do I. 
What I'm saying is, I don't feel restricted by no privacy, transparency and allowing my husband the choice to leave.


----------



## bfree

courseplotter said:


> _The truth is, I despise cheating, but I would do this one again if I had to. Sometimes the best results come from the worst choices._


_

Do you trust her knowing what she already did? Do you think she trusts you knowing what you did? You both have shown that you are able to completely disregard another's feelings. You have each demonstrated the ability to hurt someone else terribly. You say that you are affair proofing your marriage. What exactly does that mean to you? Did you affair proof your first marriage? Did she? How did that work out? If not, then why not? Didn't your first marriage mean anything to you. Wasn't it important enough to affair proof it? How do you know that this marriage is worth affair proofing? How do you know that your wife thinks so?

See the problem is that you already know the dirty side of marriage. You are trying to affix those rose colored glasses on your face but they no longer fit do they? And since neither you nor your wife has shown remorse for what you both did how do you know you are capable of remorse? How do you know she is? The fog is lifting and you are desperately trying not to see. But the sun is rising and your glasses do not fit. And you are blinded._


----------



## bfree

FourtyPlus said:


> I don't see these things as rights I have lost but rather as things are part of being married. Yes, I do close the door when I use the bathroom but that's about the only privacy I really want and need. Yes, I'm transparent but I kind of expect the same from the spouse I cheated on. Yes, he has the right to leave and so do I.
> What I'm saying is, I don't feel restricted by no privacy, transparency and allowing my husband the choice to leave.


Absolutely. I've had this argument with others. When you get married each and every thing you do, each and every decision you make affects your spouse. They should be aware of everything and able to see everything. It really does avoid a lot of issues.


----------



## CantSitStill

FortyPlus, yes I agree with all you said, I just needed to word it better. I believe both should have and know their boundaries in order for any marriage to be good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## courseplotter

bfree said:


> See the problem is that you already know the dirty side of marriage. You are trying to affix those rose colored glasses on your face but they no longer fit do they? And since neither you nor your wife has shown remorse for what you both did how do you know you are capable of remorse? How do you know she is? The fog is lifting and you are desperately trying not to see. But the sun is rising and your glasses do not fit. And you are blinded.


How do you define remorse? How do we know we're not in the matrix?

Seriously, and I'm trying to be respectful as possible: this a lot of projection from something else.



bfree said:


> Do you trust her knowing what she already did? Do you think she trusts you knowing what you did?


Within reason. We're not paranoid, but we always trust and verify.



bfree said:


> Did you affair proof your first marriage?


No, not from day one. I didn't understand why boundaries were important and I had no idea what the consequences were. In other words, if you are unhappy (or even if you are), when you play with fire, you provide yourself an opportunity to get burned.

As an example, don't go get drunk with a bunch of women that aren't your spouse and expect nothing to ever happen.



bfree said:


> Did she?


Better than me, at least at first.



bfree said:


> How did that work out?


Not so well. When two needy people get together in rough times, all bets are off. It's often a black and white opinion around here when it comes to what you should and shouldn't do, but the truth is that people in dark spots sometimes get weak and make bad decisions.



bfree said:


> Didn't your first marriage mean anything to you. Wasn't it important enough to affair proof it?


See my answer above regarding ignorance. The straight answer is: I thought I was different and it turns out I wasn't. Throw in some unhappiness and personal, internal dishonesty and BAM: affair.



bfree said:


> How do you know that this marriage is worth affair proofing?


You should treat every marriage like it is worth affair proofing, even if you know it or not.

This question seems like a setup, as if no one can ever truly know.

But the deeper answer is that it isn't like my first marriage in any way (meaning, it's good). There's respect, understanding, pro-active communication, prioritization on each other and a willingness to have a "working relationship" (meaning that you want it to work and you put in the effort to work, thus empathy and appropriate compromise). In some respects, it's easier for us because we start from a more compatible position than some couples. We work at certain things less because of personality, but that's the nature of relationships. Not all are like ours.



bfree said:


> How do you know that your wife thinks so?


No BS. Communication. Totally transparency... no "privacy". Her emphasis on boundaries for the both of us.


----------



## CantSitStill

Course, all I can say is good luck, it's just that I hear it never lasts with the APs. So if it does, that would be a rarity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BjornFree

courseplotter said:


> How do you define remorse? How do we know we're not in the matrix?


Moral anguish arising out of repentance for your past misdeeds. How do I know you're not in the matrix?



> The truth is, I despise cheating, but I would do this one again if I had to. Sometimes the best results come from the worst choices.


Its very evident that you don't view your decision as a bad one, and the fact that if you had it to do again, you would do it again also makes it clear that you didn't repent your actions. 




> Today, I am happily married for several years to my AP. We have kids. We're still ecstatic to be together everyday because we appreciate each other and what a good marriage is. We work at it. We don't repeat the same mistakes. We keep excellent boundaries and do our best to affair-proof ourselves. We are real, personal examples to each other of how well-intentioned people can step outside the lines in the wrong situation. Our lives are completely turned around and we take the opportunity to counsel people who are having marital struggles.


What I've generally observed from people who have had affairs and don't regret it is a general lack of empathy and respect for their significant others. 

I'm glad that you have a happy and good marriage. But I wonder, how do you define a good and happy marriage? Is it that YOU are happy or that SHE is happy? What happens when one or the both of you aren't happy?

I've always admired people who can stick to one path, be it right or wrong, in any situation. People who are unwilling to accept personal responsibility for their decisions tend to blame the environment, circumstances and the situation. As you and your wife have done. I'm not saying this to criticize your actions of course. I'm just making an observation.

tell me courseplotter, did you or your wife have kids from your first marriages?

From what I've been able to gather, what you and your wife had was buyer's remorse for your previous marriages. Its when you have a toy and lust after the shiny new one and regret buying the old toy. What's gonna happen when there's a shinier and newer toy? Only time will tell I guess. But I wish you a good life courseplotter.


----------



## courseplotter

BjornFree said:


> Its very evident that you don't view your decision as a bad one


How I ended my first marriage was the bad decision, but outside of the method, ending it was not a bad decision.

Do you see the difference or are you hung up on the cheating?




BjornFree said:


> I've always admired people who can stick to one path, be it right or wrong, in any situation.


I can't agree with sticking to one, wrong path when you know it is detrimental to an entire set of people. I've seen friends whose parents stayed together because it was the "right" thing to do (or as you put it: sticking to that one, wrong path in any situation) and they came out as insanely damaged adults who had no concept of how to have successful relationships.

So, no, I don't admire that and if that falls within the range of your statement, I'd have to question why you consider that admirable.




BjornFree said:


> People who are unwilling to accept personal responsibility for their decisions tend to blame the environment, circumstances and the situation. As you and your wife have done. I'm not saying this to criticize your actions of course. I'm just making an observation.


Of course you are criticizing, own it.

I think your statement on responsibility is generally correct, but I'm not entirely sure how you are applying that black and white concept to this situation.

So, at what point in the game did my wife and I not accept personal responsibility? You could mean this several ways.


----------



## russell28

courseplotter said:


> The truth is, I despise cheating, but I would do this one again if I had to. Sometimes the best results come from the worst choices.


I'm convinced that you'll 'have to' again after reading your posts.. good luck, I hope you and your current mate can both find good upgrades this time around.


----------



## courseplotter

Actually, if that happens, I'll come back here, dig up this thread and tell you that you were right. Just don't count on me having that problem to share.


----------



## russell28

You have your excuse all fired up and ready to go.. you're going to get 'best results' with your bad choices... so bad choices are okay, because hey, sometimes you do things that are immoral and wrong, things that hurt others, but you come out smelling like a rose... and that's what's important, keeping your self image up by fooling yourself into thinking it was justified.


----------



## FourtyPlus

courseplotter said:


> How I ended my first marriage was the bad decision, but outside of the method, ending it was not a bad decision.
> 
> Do you see the difference or are you hung up on the cheating?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't agree with sticking to one, wrong path when you know it is detrimental to an entire set of people. I've seen friends whose parents stayed together because it was the "right" thing to do (or as you put it: sticking to that one, wrong path in any situation) and they came out as insanely damaged adults who had no concept of how to have successful relationships.
> 
> So, no, I don't admire that and if that falls within the range of your statement, I'd have to question why you consider that admirable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you are criticizing, own it.
> 
> I think your statement on responsibility is generally correct, but I'm not entirely sure how you are applying that black and white concept to this situation.
> 
> So, at what point in the game did my wife and I not accept personal responsibility? You could mean this several ways.


You didn't accept responsibility for your first marriage. When things went wrong, you could have said something, done something or you could have left. Instead you cheated. You didn't take responsibility for your marriage and since you don't see it even now, you are bound to do the same thing again in the future. Your first wife, btw, had the same responsibility.


----------



## courseplotter

FourtyPlus said:


> You didn't accept responsibility for your first marriage. When things went wrong, you could have said something, done something or you could have left. Instead you cheated. You didn't take responsibility for your marriage and since you don't see it even now, you are bound to do the same thing again in the future. Your first wife, btw, had the same responsibility.


If you read the sum of my responses, you'll see that I agree with you as to what I "should" have done.

What you really mean is that you still think that a person doesn't change and I'm doomed to repeat my past behavior, although I've provided ample evidence for change. You just don't like that I'm ok with things working out like they have.


----------



## courseplotter

russell28 said:


> and that's what's important, keeping your self image up by fooling yourself into thinking it was justified.


Nah, it wasn't justified. *It was the wrong way to handle it.* I think I said that multiple times.

I bolded that so you would see it this time.

I've tried to keep this matter-of-fact and civil. If you can't contain your emotions and subtle attacks, you should take it to PM so I can discuss it with you there.


----------



## BjornFree

russell28 said:


> You have your excuse all fired up and ready to go.. you're going to get 'best results' with your bad choices... so bad choices are okay, because hey, sometimes you do things that are immoral and wrong, things that hurt others, but you come out smelling like a rose... and that's what's important, keeping your self image up by fooling yourself into thinking it was justified.


Which is why I asked him if he had kids from his first marriage and how it impacted them.

I don't know how I would feel about coming out smelling like roses if it came at the expense of wiping someone's face in the sh!t of my doing, especially someone who loved and trusted me.


----------



## russell28

courseplotter said:


> Nah, it wasn't justified. *It was the wrong way to handle it.* I think I said that multiple times.
> 
> I bolded that so you would see it this time.
> 
> I've tried to keep this matter-of-fact and civil. If you can't contain your emotions and subtle attacks, you should take it to PM so I can discuss it with you there.


*"I would do this one again if I had to"*

This is your quote.. I bolded it for you to see it this time.


----------



## CantSitStill

I feel instead of us Waywards having a place to talk it's all been fcused one one person who keeps having to defend himself, kinda wish we could move on. I don't feel his way is a way that would work for most but h would like to see people chime in with their own issues or feelings on what's goin on in their lives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## courseplotter

russell28 said:


> *"I would do this one again if I had to"*
> 
> This is your quote.. I bolded it for you to see it this time.


That's right, for that situation/marriage at that time, given other surrounding circumstances that are more personal and I won't reveal on a public forum to some angry BS. It's hard to see how I would change it and still have things workout the same way.


----------



## russell28

courseplotter said:


> That's right, for that situation/marriage at that time, given other surrounding circumstances that are more personal and I won't reveal on a public forum to some angry BS. It's hard to see how I would change it and still have things workout the same way.


Every affair has 'surrounding circumstances', and personal stuff... it's one thing they all have in common. Your situation was not unique in that sense.. When you stop making excuses, you'll understand why a BS gets angry when he reads your BS.


----------



## courseplotter

russell28 said:


> Every affair has 'surrounding circumstances', and personal stuff... it's one thing they all have in common. Your situation was not unique in that sense.. When you stop making excuses, you'll understand why a BS gets angry when he reads your BS.


Well, then you'll just have to get past it, won't you? Or take it to PM and spare the thread.


----------



## lookingforsupport

CantSitStill said:


> lookingforsupport, I totally understand. It's very hard when they text you with reminders of all the things you did. It hurts knowing we hurt them so bad. I've had many days of feeling paralyzed on the days my husband triggers. Lost a lot of weight, been very depressed. I am now starting to get stronger, and we are 15 months from D-day. I have to keep reminding myself that I am a better person now and am capable of taking care of my family. I still have crying bursts when I think about how ugly I became. It's weird, I keep asking myself how I became a person that I hate. All I know is, it's never too late to change. My husband knows I am determined to never give up on us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's very moving and hard to read, I know the exact same feelings and can't imagine 15 months of this. Is there a point at which it is fair to ask them to find another way to respond to triggers?


----------



## bfree

lookingforsupport said:


> That's very moving and hard to read, I know the exact same feelings and can't imagine 15 months of this. Is there a point at which it is fair to ask them to find another way to respond to triggers?


I'm a BS and from my perspective I can tell you that experiencing triggers is NEVER pleasant. If I could have found a way to deal with them better I certainly would have. Unfortunately its a matter of time and each person takes as long as they need. Some people can work through them quicker and for some it takes much, much longer. That's why it is said that it takes 2-5 years to fully work through and that's only if its done "correctly" with no rugsweeping and/or trickle truth. What I will also say is that triggers should never approach the abusive level and if they get to that point then serious counseling should be considered.


----------



## lookingforsupport

bfree said:


> I'm a BS and from my perspective I can tell you that experiencing triggers is NEVER pleasant. If I could have found a way to deal with them better I certainly would have. Unfortunately its a matter of time and each person takes as long as they need. Some people can work through them quicker and for some it takes much, much longer. That's why it is said that it takes 2-5 years to fully work through and that's only if its done "correctly" with no rugsweeping and/or trickle truth. What I will also say is that triggers should never approach the abusive level and if they get to that point then serious counseling should be considered.


Yeah, I think I agree with that as an initial assessment. Everyone works through it at his/her own pace, for sure. Does there come a point at which discussing it directly does more harm than good? Like, I understand you will have triggers and need to deal with them, but if we are both committed to loving each other and R, maybe it isn't consistent with that goal to relive the past together? Is that selfish? Unrealistic? I am not afraid to handle her anger and the shame I feel, I just don't want us to unwittingly damage ourselves by trying to confront all of our negative feelings together. I would hate for those to continue to define the relationship for years to come.


----------



## bfree

lookingforsupport said:


> Yeah, I think I agree with that as an initial assessment. Everyone works through it at his/her own pace, for sure. Does there come a point at which discussing it directly does more harm than good? Like, I understand you will have triggers and need to deal with them, but if we are both committed to loving each other and R, maybe it isn't consistent with that goal to relive the past together? Is that selfish? Unrealistic? I am not afraid to handle her anger and the shame I feel, I just don't want us to unwittingly damage ourselves by trying to confront all of our negative feelings together. I would hate for those to continue to define the relationship for years to come.


Only the person who was betrayed can decide when its time to stop talking about the affair. If you as the WS try to discourage these discussions or even try to suggest not talking about the affair it will not be received well. Believe me, she doesn't like triggering and she likes talking about the affair even less. But she has to talk about it. Its how she works through her thoughts and feelings. Its a lot to process. Talking about it allows the mind to come to grips with what happened.

Think about it this way. An affair is very much like a death. Her perception of you died. You aren't the person she thought you were in her mind's eye. The marriage also died. The vows were broken so the marriage you had is gone. A new marriage and a new perception of you must be created. But that can only happen after the grieving process is complete. When someone actually dies there is a finality. There is a body. There is a funeral. The person is buried and its done. But in a case of betrayal there is no body because you're still there. There is no funeral because you're still together. So the grieving process has to happen in a different way. Its not as cut and dry so it takes time for the mind to wrap itself around it. And the way the mind comes to grip with the betrayal is to ask questions. And usually those questions come after a trigger. Triggers are the minds way of protecting us against being hurt again so really the only way to move beyond betrayal is to experience triggers, ask questions and eventually come to an understanding and acceptance of what happened.


----------



## Lovemytruck

lookingforsupport said:


> That's very moving and hard to read, I know the exact same feelings and can't imagine 15 months of this. Is there a point at which it is fair to ask them to find another way to respond to triggers?


I don't want to jump into an arena for WS, since I am a BH, but I was just wondering about the point quoted here.

My first marriage story ended in D. It was a tough decision, and it was difficult for my WW. There was a point where I honestly felt that I could not treat her with respect anymore. It seemed that it would be better for her and me to start fresh with new relationships.

Just wondering how you on the W side deal with the idea that you would continue to be the object of hurt for your spouse. It may not be something you care to share because many of your BSs are here. It seems that eventually you would tire from the triggers and enduring the emotional instability caused by the A.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It is helpful for us to understand the other side of the equation even though it is water under the bridge for me.


----------



## megmg

We're all on a roller coaster that we made by our choices there are lots of great highs where we feel that we're atoning for our betrayal
And then the terrible lows where we hate ourselves for what we have done and know that at that moment our BS also hate us. Think responding g to the questions at this time need to be 
Answered calmly and honestly the hardest thing is to control ones own frustration and answering
The same queries , questions over and over , you need to remember that the BS is looking for verification that you are no longer lying, so being calm and honest with answers is important.
Until trust is somewhat regained then need to do whatever it takes to reassure. It's not our choice what is healthy/unhealthy it's a process to hopefully regain trust and move forward.
Knowing when triggers occur and responding that you know certain things can trigger is also important. You need to get all the negative feelings out in the open and discuss change them otherwise they will fester away within you both and that's not any good for either party. The negative thoughts / feelings won't define the relationship in years to come but hiding them away will!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lookingforsupport

Lovemytruck said:


> Just wondering how you on the W side deal with the idea that you would continue to be the object of hurt for your spouse. It may not be something you care to share because many of your BSs are here. It seems that eventually you would tire from the triggers and enduring the emotional instability caused by the A.


My initial response is that her hurt is correct and I am the correct object of her pain. I caused it with my choices and actions. I try to hold that in my head as long as I can whenever she needs to express anger or sadness.

But it is exhausting. I get to the end of my day and my body is just done - feels like it did when I had to sit for a long exam in a difficult class, or after a daylong drive in rough traffic. Stressed, wiped out, and slow to respond. Sometimes she'll want to revisit the topic later in the evening and I really struggle to give her much of an emotional response, let alone an answer to her questions. I just start feeling like a horrible person, and almost have that sense of wanting to be put out of my misery. But then I look at her, and if there is any tenderness in her gaze, I focus on that and let it sustain me with thoughts of better days ahead.

I've been at it for a little over a month now. A friend recently asked what my limit is, and I don't really know. All I know is that I still have the will to stick with it and want the marriage more than I want to escape the consequences of my actions. She does too, though I sometimes wonder if that will change. Some of the stories on here suggest that BS give up as well, or come to see their WS as ultimately not lovable, even after trying to forgive. That's scary.


----------



## megmg

Yes it is scary that the BS may decide that we're not worth it, but you have to accept that this is now their choice you removed your input into this when you did what you did, your relationship has changed emotionally and so have the dynamics you now have to prove you are worth there love/time/effort You cannot just accept that they want you as they once did, a month in then get a reality check you e only just started, take a grip and hold on for a bumpy ride if you truly love each other then there will be a few bumps and lots tears but even that does not mean they will accept you in there future, that I have come to realise and accept that the BS holds the cards, good luck , I'm a bit further along the ride than you but hope you make it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lovemytruck

Thanks for the reply. In my mind the difficulty was deciding if the pain would go away, if the WS was actually wanting to endure R, and if the betrayal would start again.

Most of us in the BS camp must agree that believing a person after the dishonesty is the pivot point. So difficult. 

It must be frustrating when you are being honest, and not trusted.

I do admire the dedication to R by some of the WS on TAM.

Thanks for sharing your issues for all of our benefit.


----------



## lookingforsupport

megmg said:


> a month in then get a reality check you e only just started, take a grip and hold on for a bumpy ride if you truly love each other then there will be a few bumps and lots tears but even that does not mean they will accept you in there future, that I have come to realise and accept that the BS holds the cards, good luck , I'm a bit further along the ride than you but hope you make it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks man. Me too. Nice to have some support on here. I read some of your early messages and I am glad to hear you are hanging in there.


----------



## Kermitty

I noticed that when there is a thread on sexless marriages, it is sometimes brought up that if you aren't willing to have sex with your SO, don't be surprised if he/she is cheating on you. This leads me to think that the affair is on the hands of the BS but when the WS says something to that same effect, it doesn't fly. Has anyone noticed this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AnnieAsh

Kermitty said:


> I noticed that when there is a thread on sexless marriages, it is sometimes brought up that if you aren't willing to have sex with your SO, don't be surprised if he/she is cheating on you. This leads me to think that the affair is on the hands of the BS but when the WS says something to that same effect, it doesn't fly. Has anyone noticed this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kermitty, the prevailing idea is that if you are in a sexless marriage you have a CHOICE. You can accept it and be sexless. You can divorce. Or you can seek sex outside of your marriage.

It is a somewhat different crowd on SIM. In CWI, there is no excuse for an affair. Period. End of discussion. It seems in SIM there are more people who almost commiserate and excuse infidelity if it is within a sexless marriage. 

Just my 2 and a half cents. There are lots of double standards on TAM and things that don't make sense to me all the time.


----------



## CantSitStill

Someone asked about the WS leaving if they feel it's been too much or too hard on them. For me that's not the case but I can see a WS leaving if they are getting badgered all the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Why should they stay if they are not in a happy marriage? What good is it if one or both are miserable and there have been no changes?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

bfree said:


> I'm a BS and from my perspective I can tell you that experiencing triggers is NEVER pleasant. If I could have found a way to deal with them better I certainly would have. Unfortunately its a matter of time and each person takes as long as they need. Some people can work through them quicker and for some it takes much, much longer. That's why it is said that it takes 2-5 years to fully work through and that's only if its done "correctly" with no rugsweeping and/or trickle truth. What I will also say is that triggers should never approach the abusive level and if they get to that point then serious counseling should be considered.


Very good bfree,thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kermitty

AnnieAsh said:


> Kermitty, the prevailing idea is that if you are in a sexless marriage you have a CHOICE. You can accept it and be sexless. You can divorce. Or you can seek sex outside of your marriage.
> 
> It is a somewhat different crowd on SIM. In CWI, there is no excuse for an affair. Period. End of discussion. It seems in SIM there are more people who almost commiserate and excuse infidelity if it is within a sexless marriage.
> 
> Just my 2 and a half cents. There are lots of double standards on TAM and things that don't make sense to me all the time.


Ok, good to know I'm not the only one that noticed it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

The only point I can speak to is the lack of objective advice for WW's who are not interested in R. I'm not looking for reasons to cheat. But the idea that cheating is a symptom of a bad marriage is often put down here.


----------



## Maricha75

CantSitStill said:


> Why should they stay if they are not in a happy marriage? What good is it if one or both are miserable and there have been no changes?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Often, they come up with one excuse or another... oh, sorry, REASON.... why they stay.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Maricha75 said:


> Often, they come up with one excuse or another... oh, sorry, REASON.... why they stay.


I guess when you're a caretaker, it is hard to break those habits. I practically raised my brother. I chose a local university so that I could be with him for his last 2 years of high school. My mother was in the middle of a horrible marriage and she just was not 100% there for him. I was told all the time as a kid that I have to take care of those I love. I have an awful story about when my brother and I were separated for a few months as children. We went to separate foster homes. I thought I was dying without him. He was 4 and I was 7. 

So, when it comes to walking away from a marriage...it goes against everything in my nature to break up my family. I am the MOTHER and the WIFE, I have to stick it out! Even if I am crying alone 5 nights a week! At least, that's what my brain is screaming at me. My instinct is to stay so everyone will be together.


----------



## Affaircare

You know, if the marriage is sexless, that is not justification to cheat. That's like trying to get a "right" out of two "wrongs."

If a marriage is sexless, then the one who is not engaging in sex is breaking the vows just as destructively as the person who steals all the money or engages in adultery (the focus here being "breaking vows" not the relative severity). If a vow is broken, it's broken--and here I'm assuming the lack of sex is not due to illness or injury. 

So at that point, the one who did NOT break the vows, who wants to still engage in sex and is being turned down, still has several moral options from which to choose:

1) Talk to your spouse about it--out loud and clearly (not hints and suggestions). Be clear you expect a marriage partner who will give you 100% of their AFFECTION and loyalty. 

2) Involve another party such as a counselor or pastor. 

3) Separate and use the time apart to work on any of your own issues. Legally protect yourself from any damage they may do because they won't face their own issues. 

The way I see it, I'm not sure "no sex" would be the kind of thing to divorce over, assuming it's literally NO SEX...NONE. If it's not enough sex...well I'm not positive there either. It's not as if we were guaranteed "all the sex you want, for life" when we promised our spouse to love them through all the circumstances of life! But by the same token, marriage is the only legitimate, moral expression of sexuality, and so to deprive someone of their only moral outlet is pretty extreme if you ask me! 

The point here is that "lack of sex" is no justification for adultery. There are ways to deal with it that show much better character, not the least of which is leaving the relationship after due course.


----------



## CantSitStill

Good post affaircare, there are no reasons to cheat, yet yes neglect is not gonna work in marriage, as you said you need to work on things, get counseling or if it comes to it divorce. I neglected Calvin so bad and didn't even wanna see or admit to it, I put my kids first. Didn't care for sex and felt in such a rut. I blamed everything on Calvin. He is not perfect but never deserved being cheated on. I now see so many ways I should have given more of my attention, appreciation and affection. I hate that I thought everything was his fault, but like I always say, it's never too late to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

You want to hear a funny story, CSS? When I was younger, I was like you. My hubby at that time worked long hours in the restaurant industry so he was with other women all the time, flirting all the time...and I blamed everything on him. He did EVERYTHING WRONG!! And you want to know the day the tiles fell off my eyes and I saw it? 

He was changing "the baby" (our youngest) and I was yelling at him that he was doing it wrong and "Gosh darn it do I have to do everything myself"....in that self-righteous tone we can so easily get with our husbands, and he said (I'll never forget this): "So what if I DO put it on wrong? It still catches the pee, doesn't it?"

BAM! It hit me like lightening! He was right!  All this time, I'd been yelling at him to *HELP ME*...and then when he did, I'd try to make him do it *MY WAY!!!!!* Well shoot, who cares if he loads the pans on the bottom of the dishwasher? Either way the dishes get clean (eventually), don't they? And he's doing the work and helping, isn't he? 

Plus, who died and made me god, that "my way" is right and "his way" is wrong? It's just different, as in "NOT THE SAME" ... not wrong. In the end it wasn't all his fault at all! It was me.


----------



## calvin

Affaircare said:


> You want to hear a funny story, CSS? When I was younger, I was like you. My hubby at that time worked long hours in the restaurant industry so he was with other women all the time, flirting all the time...and I blamed everything on him. He did EVERYTHING WRONG!! And you want to know the day the tiles fell off my eyes and I saw it?
> 
> He was changing "the baby" (our youngest) and I was yelling at him that he was doing it wrong and "Gosh darn it do I have to do everything myself"....in that self-righteous tone we can so easily get with our husbands, and he said (I'll never forget this): "So what if I DO put it on wrong? It still catches the pee, doesn't it?"
> 
> BAM! It hit me like lightening! He was right!  All this time, I'd been yelling at him to *HELP ME*...and then when he did, I'd try to make him do it *MY WAY!!!!!* Well shoot, who cares if he loads the pans on the bottom of the dishwasher? Either way the dishes get clean (eventually), don't they? And he's doing the work and helping, isn't he?
> 
> Plus, who died and made me god, that "my way" is right and "his way" is wrong? It's just different, as in "NOT THE SAME" ... not wrong. In the end it wasn't all his fault at all! It was me.


Thanks for that post Ac,I do have my bad stuff to own in our marriage but I was the one always at fault if you would have asked CSSa couple
years ago.
When we went to our first MC she was still in her A,I even told the counselor that it was all on me.
He convinced me otherwise,CSS did not want to hear that,all that did was make her angrier at me.
Things are so much better now,the affection is there and I feel appreciated.
Wish we would have worked on ourselves a long time ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: A Thread For Wayward/Wandering/Disloyal Spouses*



AnnieAsh said:


> Kermitty, the prevailing idea is that if you are in a sexless marriage you have a CHOICE. You can accept it and be sexless. You can divorce. Or you can seek sex outside of your marriage.
> 
> It is a somewhat different crowd on SIM. In CWI, there is no excuse for an affair. Period. End of discussion. It seems in SIM there are more people who almost commiserate and excuse infidelity if it is within a sexless marriage.
> 
> Just my 2 and a half cents. There are lots of double standards on TAM and things that don't make sense to me all the time.


And if you think about it who wants to have sex with someone if you are pretty sure they're going to betray you. It certainly does not make that person attractive to you. It certainly does not make you want them more. The only way to deal with a sexless marriage is to get yourself in the best possible position and shape you can. Workout, learn how to please your partner, and then tell them in no uncertain terms what you need and what the consequences are if you don't get it. And be ready to walk if you do not get what you need. As always communication is the key but you also have to have confidence in yourself because someone who is not confident is not attractive.


----------



## LRgirl

bfree said:


> And if you think about it who wants to have sex with someone if you are pretty sure they're going to betray you. It certainly does not make that person attractive to you. It certainly does not make you want them more. The only way to deal with a sexless marriage is to get yourself in the best possible position and shape you can. Workout, learn how to please your partner, and then tell them in no uncertain terms what you need and what the consequences are if you don't get it. And be ready to walk if you do not get what you need. As always communication is the key but you also have to have confidence in yourself because someone who is not confident is not attractive.


:iagree: with this.

My H and I went for long periods where sex wasn't as often as H wanted, but I always blamed it on having 4 children and being busy and tired constantly...but there are loads of factors. It really was the last thing on my mind when I had so much else to do.

Also when a woman is busy, busy, busy where does she find time to make herself feel good and feel nice?.....

Without feeling better about myself I didn't invite H into the shower with me....I didn't undress with the lights on....I wasn't feeling sexy or desired....I just knew that he wanted sex and if he didn't get some he would be almost impossible to live with. This catch 22 went on for years. 

I would say my H got sex at least once a week.....any longer than that he would sulk like a baby, so it was a chore!....instead of H trying to find ways to give me more time, help around the home etc...he took the easy and selfish way....he took opportunities else where....he could have made more of an effort with himself too....but I obviously wasn't worth the effort, he did have time....he went to work and came home and didn't do much else.....he lacks motivation and dedication.

Looking back at how I was then and how I am now....just having a little me time, having time to get in to shape, have hobbies, nice clothes, make up, hairdresser.....wanting to go out, having energy to go out....inviting H into the shower......We could have had so much of this back then, I am not a different person, I enjoy sex, but not how i / it was!

I asked him months ago, if you'd had Julia Roberts at home would you have cheated.......he said 'probably yes.'

I asked If you'd been getting more sex would you have cheated, he said 'probably not'

This is probably the biggest factor in WHY my H cheated.

Sex wasn't just sex, it was closeness, it was sharing, it was making him feel wanted, desired.......it was bonding....but before a man can imagine he has some God given right to this 'sex' from his W, he has to make a little effort too.


----------



## Zanne

CantSitStill said:


> Why should they stay if they are not in a happy marriage? What good is it if one or both are miserable and there have been no changes?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some people stay because of obligations and moral reasons.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Zanne said:


> Some people stay because of obligations and moral reasons.


I guess the hard part for many of the BS crowd are the contradictions given in the arguement. 

The "why" is usually elusive in the cheating just as it is in the reason for wanting to R.

It is confusing when moral obligations are cited, when morals were set aside.

It is confusing when sex, communiction, money, or other common factors seem to be good prior to cheating.

It seems that otherwise decent people go do their deed, then run back to those that they despised/resented, etc. 

What was the big epiphany that made you desperately want to stay? Fear? Money? Shame? Religion?

I understand an exit affair, but the desire to R by a WS seems to condradict their rational for the A in the first place.

Thanks for sharing. Just one of those deep thoughts I have had in accepting my past relationship, and the betrayal during a time where it felt like love.


----------



## CantSitStill

Ok in my warped mind I thought Calvin didn't really love me for who I am, well he had made changes and began treating me much better, I was in my dumb EA and he didn't know. Once I admitted my EA and he kicked me out, a few days later as I was having a major panic attack, he texted me and talked to me a long time, wanted me back home. So that was my aha moment of realizing he really does love me. Before when he had changed and was nice I was distant because of fear that it was a tactic and he would change back to being critical of me. I was very wrong. He has been wonderful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calvin

CantSitStill said:


> Ok in my warped mind I thought Calvin didn't really love me for who I am, well he had made changes and began treating me much better, I was in my dumb EA and he didn't know. Once I admitted my EA and he kicked me out, a few days later as I was having a major panic attack, he texted me and talked to me a long time, wanted me back home. So that was my aha moment of realizing he really does love me. Before when he had changed and was nice I was distant because of fear that it was a tactic and he would change back to being critical of me. I was very wrong. He has been wonderful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes,all my fault prior to you finding him
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

To know that after I betrayed him, that he was willing to take me back showed me how much he really loved me. He took care of me, I was a wreck. He is the best husband anyone could want. To think I jeopardized our marriage sickens me. I should have done MC with him years ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

Yes Calvin that was my warped way of thinking and I'm sorry. I had a lot of things I could have and should have changed. Back then I was unwilling to see that. Now I see a lot of faults that I had.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LRgirl

Lovemytruck said:


> I guess the hard part for many of the BS crowd are the contradictions given in the arguement.
> 
> The "why" is usually elusive in the cheating just as it is in the reason for wanting to R.
> 
> It is confusing when moral obligations are cited, when morals were set aside.
> 
> It is confusing when sex, communiction, money, or other common factors seem to be good prior to cheating.
> 
> It seems that otherwise decent people go do their deed, then run back to those that they despised/resented, etc.
> 
> What was the big epiphany that made you desperately want to stay? Fear? Money? Shame? Religion?
> 
> I understand an exit affair, but the desire to R by a WS seems to condradict their rational for the A in the first place.
> 
> Thanks for sharing. Just one of those deep thoughts I have had in accepting my past relationship, and the betrayal during a time where it felt like love.


Maybe one of the hard things for a BS to accept and understand is when BS and WS really do love one another, are best friends but simply lose sight of each other among the hectic-ness of every day life. 

WS gets some kind of ego boost or gap filled, either in EA, A or ONS....from an outside source ..... and makes the worst choice imaginable and crosses over a line.

It doesn't necessarily mean the WS wants to leave his/her marriage....I think the exit A is probably the rarest.

I don't believe my H ever even considered us not being together, ever....I certainly have never doubted his love for me....

It is still a struggle for me to even begin to understand why my H didn't realise he might get caught...but he didn't believe he would...he believed there were no consequences...this hurts me a lot....as the one thing that would stop me from cheating if I ever had got close to it, would be, if my H finds out we will be over and nothing is worth that risk!

So I live with the knowledge that my H chose others over me, at least for a few conscious minutes, at least 3 times in our 20 year relationship. They won over me because he thought he would get away with it, so it didn't bother him that he had betrayed me/us....it didn't bother him he broke our vows....and he never gave it enough conscious thought to choose me over them, just in case he got caught!

The jury is still very much out, even though I am doing everything in my power to make good this R effort...it is still extremely painful to now know what i know.


----------



## Zanne

Lovemytruck said:


> I guess the hard part for many of the BS crowd are the contradictions given in the arguement.
> 
> The "why" is usually elusive in the cheating just as it is in the reason for wanting to R.
> 
> It is confusing when moral obligations are cited, when morals were set aside.
> 
> It is confusing when sex, communiction, money, or other common factors seem to be good prior to cheating.
> 
> It seems that otherwise decent people go do their deed, then run back to those that they despised/resented, etc.
> 
> What was the big epiphany that made you desperately want to stay? Fear? Money? Shame? Religion?
> 
> I understand an exit affair, but the desire to R by a WS seems to condradict their rational for the A in the first place.
> 
> Thanks for sharing. Just one of those deep thoughts I have had in accepting my past relationship, and the betrayal during a time where it felt like love.


I never said that I wanted to R. Currently, I'm doing "right" by staying and in the process, I am working on some issues about myself.

My feelings (or lack of) for my husband haven't changed one bit except I no longer despise him and I do feel sorry for him.

Right now he is just some guy to me. But we have a family together and as a Christian, being unhappy isn't a reason to divorce.

So, I am here for obligations and moral reasons. That's _my_ reasons. It's not necessarily the situation for other people.


----------



## Lovemytruck

CSS and Calvin,

Your story hits home for me. I kind of think my exWW had a MLC or something. She hated the idea of being old when she started her 40's.

Sounds like a sh!t test at the ultimate level.

Being falsly blamed for my wrongs as her justification before, during, and after the A made me realize that her concept of "love" was not even close to my understanding of it.

I was in limbo on the D for several months. It actually became a guilt trip when I decided to end it.

Things are good again. I am happily re-married to a wonderful new woman. 

Maybe the reason that infidelity is still an issue is that I am looking for a way to prevent from ever going through it again. Traumatized? Lol! It is like being struck by lightning.

Thanks for sharing your stories. We never really know what the other path in life would have brought. It is also very helpful to know some of the "whys" so that they can be addressed prior to falling into that mess again.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Thanks Zanne! These things are, as we both know, very complex. I really appreciate the candid answers that TAM provides from all different sides of the marriage equation. It is invaluable to me.


----------



## megmg

CantSitStill said:


> To know that after I betrayed him, that he was willing to take me back showed me how much he really loved me. He took care of me, I was a wreck. He is the best husband anyone could want. To think I jeopardized our marriage sickens me. I should have done MC with him years ago.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


CSS I echo your words to LRgirl, she's more wonderful in real life than she comes across here


----------



## Lovemytruck

megmg said:


> CSS I echo your words to LRgirl, she's more wonderful in real life than she comes across here


That says a lot, because she comes across as a very decent person. 

Best wishes in keeping her.


----------



## dusty4

lookingforsupport said:


> Thanks for reading. Do any WS or BS have ideas about how to work through this pain?


As a BS, no, I don't know how you work through the pain. I can only guess that you simply have to take your lumps for a good long while until the boiling over of emotions starts to subside. Your dday didn't happen long ago. Its still fresh. Expect to go through some rough times for, perhaps, even another year. 

My guess is she'll get to a point where it doesn't hurt as bad any longer, but if you are serious about making amends, then you take the lumps as long as it takes for her to be more at ease with things.


----------



## dusty4

lookingforsupport said:


> As for her messages, I usually respond with a combination of I love you and I'm sorry, and not much more.


And thats all you really can do. That and not be defensive. She gets to work through her anger now.


----------



## soulpotato

Lovemytruck said:


> That says a lot, because she comes across as a very decent person.
> 
> Best wishes in keeping her.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## megmg

Lovemytruck said:


> That says a lot, because she comes across as a very decent person.
> 
> Best wishes in keeping her.



Thanks ,

It will take more than wishes me thinks!!!!! But the thoughts nice


----------



## Kermitty

Why if I say something point blank, are my words twisted to suit the negative image some posters have of a WS?
Obviously a rhetorical question. 
I've made it clear to my husband how remorseful I am and I do anything he asks in terms of gaining trust back. I don't understand why I have to grovel or make my remorse evident to any other BS on here. Good people can make bad decisions. Why is it assumed I'm bad and I have to prove otherwise to some posters otherwise I get their displaced anger. I'm here to learn how to make my marriage work and be the best it can be. Isn't that what this site is for?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope1964

Kermitty said:


> Why if I say something point blank, are my words twisted to suit the negative image some posters have of a WS?
> Obviously a rhetorical question.
> I've made it clear to my husband how remorseful I am and I do anything he asks in terms of gaining trust back. I don't understand why I have to grovel or make my remorse evident to any other BS on here. Good people can make bad decisions. Why is it assumed I'm bad and I have to prove otherwise to some posters otherwise I get their displaced anger. I'm here to learn how to make my marriage work and be the best it can be. Isn't that what this site is for?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are quite a few bitter angry BS's on here that project their anger to any WS that posts. There are also people on here who have never been cheated on who seem to think that anyone who tries to R after infidelity, BS or WS, have done so only because they don't know any better and at the cost of their self respect. It's tough.

That said, if someone comes on here and just says they cheated and they want to make it up to their spouse, they ARE going to have to prove themselves before people start actually believing them. Any WS who is still all 'poor me' and stuff is going to get their ass kicked, especially if it's not long past D day. WS's do have to prove themselves if they want to stick around, because if you are NOT truly remorseful we won't let you get away with that


----------



## Kermitty

Hope1964, thanks for that level headed reply. I guess it is frustrating to prove you are truly remorseful to someone who has already made up their mind you aren't. I can understand if I personally ask a poster a question and my remorse comes into question but if I ask a general marriage question, if you don't think I'm remorseful dont answer. Maybe I should follow my own advice and ignore those who refuse to accept what I know is true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

Kermitty said:


> Why if I say something point blank, are my words twisted to suit the negative image some posters have of a WS?
> Obviously a rhetorical question.
> I've made it clear to my husband how remorseful I am and I do anything he asks in terms of gaining trust back. I don't understand why I have to grovel or make my remorse evident to any other BS on here. Good people can make bad decisions. Why is it assumed I'm bad and I have to prove otherwise to some posters otherwise I get their displaced anger. I'm here to learn how to make my marriage work and be the best it can be. Isn't that what this site is for?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Kermitty, I, too, am a WS. Well, actually, I'm both WS and BS.  But my comment on another thread (if that is one you are referring to) wasn't meant to twist anything. Without saying "Yea, I'm doing the work I promised after cheating. In return, he is also working on his issues." What it SEEMED when reading it, at first, was you made him do all the changing while you sat back and did nothing. Like I said, INITIALLY, that's how it looked. Which is why I STOPPED replying, after you clarified that wasn't the case at all.

I do apologize if I was out of line in my questioning.


----------



## Kermitty

Maricha75 said:


> Kermitty, I, too, am a WS. Well, actually, I'm both WS and BS.  But my comment on another thread (if that is one you are referring to) wasn't meant to twist anything. Without saying "Yea, I'm doing the work I promised after cheating. In return, he is also working on his issues." What it SEEMED when reading it, at first, was you made him do all the changing while you sat back and did nothing. Like I said, INITIALLY, that's how it looked. Which is why I STOPPED replying, after you clarified that wasn't the case at all.
> 
> I do apologize if I was out of line in my questioning.


I wasn't referring to you at all. In fact I appreciated that you asked and then when I clarified, you accepted it. That is not usually the case it seems on here. Then as my words get twisted, I lose patience and end up looking like the B.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

Kermitty said:


> Why if I say something point blank, are my words twisted to suit the negative image some posters have of a WS?
> Obviously a rhetorical question.
> I've made it clear to my husband how remorseful I am and I do anything he asks in terms of gaining trust back. *I don't understand why I have to grovel or make my remorse evident to any other BS on here. Good people can make bad decisions. Why is it assumed I'm bad and I have to prove otherwise to some posters otherwise I get their displaced anger.* I'm here to learn how to make my marriage work and be the best it can be. Isn't that what this site is for?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why do you care what they think? After all, it only really matters what your H believes.


----------



## Kermitty

Zanne said:


> Why do you care what they think? After all, it only really matters what your H believes.


It's not that I care what they think. It's that I don't want their opinions persuading others or deterring others from giving me advice. Like if a poster takes something i said and believes it to mean i will continue cheating, i feel like not responding will be taken as admitting he is right. If no one is willing to give me advice, not much point in my being on this site. So I try to explain myself but I suppose because I don't really care what they think and don't feel I have to prove it to them, I come off seeming "unremorseful". I guess ill try ignoring those who I feel don't really want the real answers but already assume they know it all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

Kermitty said:


> I guess ill try ignoring those who I feel don't really want the real answers but already assume they know it all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And that would be the bulk of membership on this site. That's okay, there will be other WW's along for them to slay.

HOWEVER, there are a few good posters on this site who make it worth your while. You may not always get answers right away or like the responses, but sometimes you are expected to sort things out on your own as you learn and grow as an individual.

Pick your battles, I say.


----------



## Kermitty

Zanne said:


> Pick your battles, I say.


True.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Kermitty said:


> It's not that I care what they think. It's that I don't want their opinions persuading others or deterring others from giving me advice. Like if a poster takes something i said and believes it to mean i will continue cheating, i feel like not responding will be taken as admitting he is right. If no one is willing to give me advice, not much point in my being on this site. So I try to explain myself but I suppose because I don't really care what they think and don't feel I have to prove it to them, I come off seeming "unremorseful". I guess ill try ignoring those who I feel don't really want the real answers but already assume they know it all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand what you're saying. I'm running into that type of situation in a thread I'm participating in. The majority of posters there are hammering me because my advice doesn't conform to their agenda. No matter. Like Zanne said the better and more experienced posters will offer their advice regardless. Most of us here on TAM have seen the mob mentality in action and we don't pay attention. The only one that really needs to believe you is your husband.


----------



## Kermitty

Well thank you all for allowing me to voice my opinion and understanding where I'm coming from.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Zanne

Kermitty, can I also say that sometimes the posters who come off as mean and nasty also have experience to offer, mostly btdt type of experience, because most WW's do follow a script.

Maybe you are still feeling a little guilt and that's why you react to them? I know this was the case for me.

Now I have a hard time with narrow one-way thinking - and I definitely dislike labels, but the more threads I read here, I start to see patterns and behaviors, and I hate to say it, but I see myself AND I even see that "they" were right sometimes.

I have complained multiple times on my thread that people are too focused on my EA/PA's. I hate dwelling on it because it's uncomfortable and it paints me in a bad light. I just want to move on! And I want to get to the heart of the matter, which is my marriage. So, I do understand your frustrations.

But sometimes others can see areas you still need to work on. I haven't admitted some of this on my own thread, but my EA had physical aspects too. I still see OM and I obviously struggle to get over it because I know this a thorn in the side of my marriage. I've been doing well (or so I thought) but guess what? I turned around and got too close to another TAMer. Unintentionally, of course. He made the decision for us which made me really sad because I don't get to talk to him anymore, but now I'm thankful that he had better boundaries than I. So there it is - proof that I still need to work on myself and my boundaries.

Again, there are posters here who are out to hurt you (they don't know you so it's easy) and posters who want to help you meet your goals (they have a genuine interest in helping people). Align yourself with the latter group. Just keep an open mind because sometimes posters who you think are being hurtful are actually trying to help.


----------



## russell28

Zanne said:


> I still see OM and I obviously struggle to get over it because I know this a *thorn in the side of my marriage*. I've been doing well (or so I thought) but guess what? I turned around and got too close to another TAMer. Unintentionally, of course. He made the decision for us which made me really sad because I don't get to talk to him anymore, but now I'm thankful that he had better boundaries than I. So there it is - proof that I still need to work on myself and my boundaries.


It's a 'thorn', really? How about a 50 megaton atom bomb?


----------



## Zanne

bfree said:


> I understand what you're saying. I'm running into that type of situation in a thread I'm participating in. The majority of posters there are hammering me because my advice doesn't conform to their agenda. No matter. Like Zanne said the better and more experienced posters will offer their advice regardless. Most of us here on TAM have seen the mob mentality in action and we don't pay attention. The only one that really needs to believe you is your husband.


Haha..."agenda." So true. And there's no way I'm getting involved in that thread. I'm thankful there are posters like bfree who have thicker skin and are willing to jump into the fray. I just nod silently as I'm reading and maybe risk a "like" for a post well done.

Yes, listen to bfree. He's one of the good ones. Although I tried to kick him off of my own thread. He kept coming back.


----------



## Zanne

russell28 said:


> It's a 'thorn', really? How about a 50 megaton atom bomb?


Well, I agree with you. I tried to "quit" him and in the process I transferred those needs to another and now I'm back to trying to pretend he doesn't exist and my husband is still firmly planted in friend territory. But at least I'm aware of the problem. It's not right, I know it isn't.


----------



## russell28

Zanne said:


> Well, I agree with you. I tried to "quit" him and in the process I transferred those needs to another and now I'm back to trying to pretend he doesn't exist and my husband is still firmly planted in friend territory. But at least I'm aware of the problem. It's not right, I know it isn't.


Stay strong.. do what you know is right, for you, not for him or anyone else.


----------



## Kermitty

Zanne said:


> But sometimes others can see areas you still need to work on.


I'm open to that. More often than not, it's someone telling me I have a problem where I clearly don't and they won't listen otherwise. I am willing to admit when I am wrong, and I am open to anyone asking or pointing out where they think I'm wrong. I came here for advice and to learn, not to hear I'm perfect 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

Kermitty said:


> I'm open to that. More often than not, it's someone telling me I have a problem where I clearly don't and they won't listen otherwise. I am willing to admit when I am wrong, and I am open to anyone asking or pointing out where they think I'm wrong. I came here for advice and to learn, not to hear I'm perfect
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's one of the problems with posters. They can't truly see what's going on behind the pixelated screen.

They _think_ they can. Yet, they truly can't. It's where the "sick 'em" mentality begins usually.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: A Thread For Wayward/Wandering/Disloyal Spouses*



Zanne said:


> Haha..."agenda." So true. And there's no way I'm getting involved in that thread. I'm thankful there are posters like bfree who have thicker skin and are willing to jump into the fray. I just nod silently as I'm reading and maybe risk a "like" for a post well done.
> 
> Yes, listen to bfree. He's one of the good ones. Although I tried to kick him off of my own thread. He kept coming back.


It's because I love you Zanne. In a platonic way of course. 

Sorry, a little wayward humor there.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: A Thread For Wayward/Wandering/Disloyal Spouses*



Kermitty said:


> I'm open to that. More often than not, it's someone telling me I have a problem where I clearly don't and they won't listen otherwise. I am willing to admit when I am wrong, and I am open to anyone asking or pointing out where they think I'm wrong. I came here for advice and to learn, not to hear I'm perfect
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, you're wrong.


----------



## hurtingbadly

Can anyone here give me advice on getting my WS to come clean? I just don't know if I can continue to live with such anxiety over the unknown. Begging, pleading, crying, screaming... Nothing works! He covered up a ONS for eight years. Then he gave me half the story, kept with this for a year. Took a poly and failed. I finally got the name of the girl who he had claimed was a stranger on a business trip, it wasn't. Nothing adds up. I got HPV for one. He claims it was one time only and a BJ. He failed the intercourse question, if he had been with her more than once and inconclusive on if he was with others, which I suspect several other girls. He has admitted to an EA with one of them, but still sticks with his story. It is hard to forgive when I don't know what I'm forgiving. He clearly thinks the less I know the less it will hurt us. I have given him books, articles... I would just give up and leave, but financially we can't afford it. He had to start a new job cause of this mess and I now have to go back to work full time just to keep up. Our kids are old enough this has been really hard on them, I don't want to have to pull them out to other schools. I wish I knew all this before when they were little, would have made divorcing easier. We've been together over twenty years. Now I feel like I never knew him. What are the WSs thoughts on this? He's been depressed at times, suicidal. He's done some of the things he's supposed to do, like passwords... But, he still gets defensive and angry with me if I ask questions. I'm so tired and lost. Any help from the other side?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort

hurtingbadly said:


> Can anyone here give me advice on getting my WS to come clean? I just don't know if I can continue to live with such anxiety over the unknown. Begging, pleading, crying, screaming... Nothing works! He covered up a ONS for eight years. Then he gave me half the story, kept with this for a year. Took a poly and failed. I finally got the name of the girl who he had claimed was a stranger on a business trip, it wasn't. Nothing adds up. He claims it was one time only and a BJ. He failed the intercourse question, if he had been with her more than once and inconclusive on if he was with others, which I suspect several other girls. He has admitted to an EA with one of them, but still sticks with his story. It is hard to forgive when I don't know what I'm forgiving. He clearly thinks the less I know the less it will hurt us. I have given him books, articles... I would just give up and leave, but financially we can't afford it. He had to start a new job cause of this mess and I now have yo go back to work full time just to keep up. Our kids are old enough this has been really hard on them, I don't want to have to pull them out to other schools. I wish I knew all this before when they were little, would have made divorcing easier. We've been together over twenty years. Now I feel like I never knew him. What are the WSs thoughts on this? He's been depressed at times, suicidal. He's down some if the things he's supposed to do, like passwords... But, he still gets defensive and angry with me if I ask questions. I'm so tired and lost. Any help from the other side?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What would it matter if he came clean? He's a cheat and a liar, and even if he admits everything he'll still be who he is and will likely continue to cheat and lie. It's pretty clear to him that he has little to lose. You can either make excuses as to why you can't leave or you can accept that this is what you've got and do not expect anything more. Don't set yourself up for disappointments, it's not good for your health. Sorry, you deserve better and so do your kids. I get how tough it is, I left an abusive ex when I was a sahm with a 2 year old and a 5 year old. It can be done, and it starts with removing yourself from victim status. You can do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kermitty

hurtingbadly said:


> Can anyone here give me advice on getting my WS to come clean? I just don't know if I can continue to live with such anxiety over the unknown. Begging, pleading, crying, screaming... Nothing works! He covered up a ONS for eight years. Then he gave me half the story, kept with this for a year. Took a poly and failed. I finally got the name of the girl who he had claimed was a stranger on a business trip, it wasn't. Nothing adds up. I got HPV for one. He claims it was one time only and a BJ. He failed the intercourse question, if he had been with her more than once and inconclusive on if he was with others, which I suspect several other girls. He has admitted to an EA with one of them, but still sticks with his story. It is hard to forgive when I don't know what I'm forgiving. He clearly thinks the less I know the less it will hurt us. I have given him books, articles... I would just give up and leave, but financially we can't afford it. He had to start a new job cause of this mess and I now have to go back to work full time just to keep up. Our kids are old enough this has been really hard on them, I don't want to have to pull them out to other schools. I wish I knew all this before when they were little, would have made divorcing easier. We've been together over twenty years. Now I feel like I never knew him. What are the WSs thoughts on this? He's been depressed at times, suicidal. He's done some of the things he's supposed to do, like passwords... But, he still gets defensive and angry with me if I ask questions. I'm so tired and lost. Any help from the other side?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't know how you could believe anything he tells you at this point. He sees no point in telling you the whole truth because he has nothing to gain from it and it will only make him look worse. You can't make him tell you the whole truth. You can only do what is best for you. Maybe get some therapy for yourself. This situation is way beyond anything I've had to deal with. If you insist on staying with him, you need to figure out a way to live amicably for the sake of your kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TCSRedhead

hurtingbadly said:


> Can anyone here give me advice on getting my WS to come clean? I just don't know if I can continue to live with such anxiety over the unknown. Begging, pleading, crying, screaming... Nothing works! He covered up a ONS for eight years. Then he gave me half the story, kept with this for a year. Took a poly and failed. I finally got the name of the girl who he had claimed was a stranger on a business trip, it wasn't. Nothing adds up. I got HPV for one. He claims it was one time only and a BJ. He failed the intercourse question, if he had been with her more than once and inconclusive on if he was with others, which I suspect several other girls. He has admitted to an EA with one of them, but still sticks with his story. It is hard to forgive when I don't know what I'm forgiving. He clearly thinks the less I know the less it will hurt us. I have given him books, articles... I would just give up and leave, but financially we can't afford it. He had to start a new job cause of this mess and I now have to go back to work full time just to keep up. Our kids are old enough this has been really hard on them, I don't want to have to pull them out to other schools. I wish I knew all this before when they were little, would have made divorcing easier. We've been together over twenty years. Now I feel like I never knew him. What are the WSs thoughts on this? He's been depressed at times, suicidal. He's done some of the things he's supposed to do, like passwords... But, he still gets defensive and angry with me if I ask questions. I'm so tired and lost. Any help from the other side?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You say (and mean it):

Look, I've given you too many chances to tell me the truth and you refuse. 

Make the choice now - write out a timeline of all that has happened or sign these divorce papers.

He makes a choice - right then and there. No more waffling.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: A Thread For Wayward/Wandering/Disloyal Spouses*



TCSRedhead said:


> You say (and mean it):
> 
> Look, I've given you too many chances to tell me the truth and you refuse.
> 
> Make the choice now - write out a timeline of all that has happened or sign these divorce papers.
> 
> He makes a choice - right then and there. No more waffling.


I agree. Unless divorce is on the table he has no incentive to give a full effort.


----------



## CantSitStill

Just wondering, is this a place for ex waywards to feel safe to talk to each other?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

CantSitStill said:


> Just wondering, is this a place for ex waywards to feel safe to talk to each other?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's supposed to be... I've posted, so you should be safe, CSS


----------



## bfree

Anyone gives you grief and they'll catch heck from me.


----------



## CEL

bfree said:


> Anyone gives you grief and they'll catch heck from me.


Thats why I stay away.......


----------



## dusty4

hurtingbadly said:


> Can anyone here give me advice on getting my WS to come clean?


I guess it begs the question, if WS doesn't want to come clean, whats the point of staying with them?

But if you want to give it a try, tell him you are going to see a lawyer and filing for divorce. Then when asked why, you can tell him its because he is still lying.

And if he doesn't beg you to not go file, then you are already headed in the right direction.


----------



## Zanne

bfree said:


> It's because I love you Zanne. In a platonic way of course.
> 
> Sorry, a little wayward humor there.


LOL, funny. Wait...are...are you making fun of me, bfree??!


----------



## Zanne

dusty4 said:


> I guess it begs the question, if WS doesn't want to come clean, whats the point of staying with them?


Exactly. :smthumbup:


----------



## bfree

Zanne said:


> LOL, funny. Wait...are...are you making fun of me, bfree??!


If you can't laugh once in a while what's the point of living. :fro:


----------



## caram3113

What if the OM is actually a *friend*? If you've never met, never will, and have known him for decades? I have no doubt that this would be considered an emotional affair, but he really and truly is my best friend. I talk to him because I can't (believe me, I've tried) talk to my husband. We talk about all the things I can't discuss with him or my friends (Too conservative/judgmental). I don't worry about things getting physical because I'm not his type, and never would be ; I've seen his girlfriends. Physically, he's out of my league! But mentally/emotionally, we get along so well and know each other so well, it's effortless. 

If i tell H I feel lonely, he gets upset ("Call your friends _[that have children or work 2 jobs or live states away_] and go do something with them!" [_as long as its not overnight, which he forbids_]). If I tell him I can't talk to him, he angrily says, (*sigh, FINE! "what do you want to talk about?") If I bring up sex, he gets whiny and pouty. ("you don't want to have sex with meeeee?!") 

I know my friend isn't perfect, and I know he experiences me completely different than my husband. And that's part of the allure: to him, I'm still fun, I'm still sexual. He knew me before marriage, after all. To my husband, I'm just "his wife" and "the mother of his child". I'm just those two roles, and it's confining, lonely, and BORING. 

But for all that, it's safe. There's security in that, and responsibility, which can't be underestimated and is worth staying for. I like being married. Dating sucks. And knowing my daughter has both her parents around is important. I want her to have her mom and dad around, together, unlike me.

And it's not as if we don't get along; H and I are great business partners, and we work well together around the house. We make it work, it gets done. As roommates, we're great. 

It's just not intimate. We aren't close. I can't tell him everything, like I do my best friend. 

And I love being something else other than just an asexual "wife" and "mother". I *like *being flirty, smart, and fun -- things the husband just doesn't appreciate. He'd rather I just had the once-a month obligatory missionary sex with no talking, no mental foreplay, no flirting, no fun. He'd rather I never wrote another erotic story or had another fantasy I can't tell him about. He wants the nice wife that never gives him trouble or argues, and cooks on Sundays and has sex when and how he wants it -- with no effort or imagination on his part. I've tried to be as much of that as I can. 

I don't know if I could ever give my friend up. I don't even know if I'd want to. I don't feel conflicted (much). I don't know if H knows or even if he did, if he'd be hurt. He'd probably be relieved that he doesn't have to talk to me about anything anymore! 

I just know that with BF is the only solace/fun/excitement I have, at least emotionally/mentally.


----------



## BjornFree

caram3113 said:


> What if the OM is actually a *friend*? If you've never met, never will, and have known him for decades? I have no doubt that this would be considered an emotional affair, but he really and truly is my best friend. I talk to him because I can't (believe me, I've tried) talk to my husband. We talk about all the things I can't discuss with him or my friends (Too conservative/judgmental). I don't worry about things getting physical because I'm not his type, and never would be ; I've seen his girlfriends. Physically, he's out of my league! But mentally/emotionally, we get along so well and know each other so well, it's effortless.
> 
> If i tell H I feel lonely, he gets upset ("Call your friends _[that have children or work 2 jobs or live states away_] and go do something with them!" [_as long as its not overnight, which he forbids_]). If I tell him I can't talk to him, he angrily says, (*sigh, FINE! "what do you want to talk about?") If I bring up sex, he gets whiny and pouty. ("you don't want to have sex with meeeee?!")
> 
> I know my friend isn't perfect, and I know he experiences me completely different than my husband. And that's part of the allure: to him, I'm still fun, I'm still sexual. He knew me before marriage, after all. *To my husband, I'm just "his wife" and "the mother of his child". I'm just those two roles*, and it's confining, lonely, and BORING.
> 
> But for all that, it's safe. There's security in that, and responsibility, which can't be underestimated and is worth staying for. I like being married. Dating sucks. And knowing my daughter has both her parents around is important. I want her to have her mom and dad around, together, unlike me.
> 
> And it's not as if we don't get along; H and I are great business partners, and we work well together around the house. We make it work, it gets done. As roommates, we're great.
> 
> It's just not intimate. We aren't close. I can't tell him everything, like I do my best friend.
> 
> And I love being something else other than just an asexual "wife" and "mother". I *like *being flirty, smart, and fun -- things the husband just doesn't appreciate. He'd rather I just had the once-a month obligatory missionary sex with no talking, no mental foreplay, no flirting, no fun. He'd rather I never wrote another erotic story or had another fantasy I can't tell him about. He wants the nice wife that never gives him trouble or argues, and cooks on Sundays and has sex when and how he wants it -- with no effort or imagination on his part. I've tried to be as much of that as I can.
> 
> I don't know if I could ever give my friend up. I don't even know if I'd want to. I don't feel conflicted (much). I don't know if H knows or even if he did, if he'd be hurt. He'd probably be relieved that he doesn't have to talk to me about anything anymore!
> 
> I just know that with BF is the only solace/fun/excitement I have, at least emotionally/mentally.


Nice to see that you've compartmentalized your affair so well, relegating your husband to good business partner, father and roommate.. And yet you complain that your husband does the same thing and confines you to the role of wife and mother. 

This thread was made so that wayward spouses who were willing to put in the hard work to fix their marriages could come and seek guidance from others who were in the same position without drawing unnecessary flak.

This isn't a platform to justify your affair so if that's what you'd rather do, there is another website called Private Affairs where you can go and seek help to improve the affair sex and make it absolutely fabulous. Just sayin.....


----------



## Zanne

Caram, I would say that it appears to be a win-win because it feels safe and therefore there is no harm in it... at least, for now. But eventually it won't be enough. I think you know that.


----------



## Zanne

And Bjorn, I think caram IS seeking guidance. AC said in the first post that affairs would not be justified here.


----------



## TCSRedhead

caram3113 said:


> What if the OM is actually a *friend*? If you've never met, never will, and have known him for decades? I have no doubt that this would be considered an emotional affair, but he really and truly is my best friend. I talk to him because I can't (believe me, I've tried) talk to my husband. We talk about all the things I can't discuss with him or my friends (Too conservative/judgmental). I don't worry about things getting physical because I'm not his type, and never would be ; I've seen his girlfriends. Physically, he's out of my league! But mentally/emotionally, we get along so well and know each other so well, it's effortless.
> 
> If i tell H I feel lonely, he gets upset ("Call your friends _[that have children or work 2 jobs or live states away_] and go do something with them!" [_as long as its not overnight, which he forbids_]). If I tell him I can't talk to him, he angrily says, (*sigh, FINE! "what do you want to talk about?") If I bring up sex, he gets whiny and pouty. ("you don't want to have sex with meeeee?!")
> 
> I know my friend isn't perfect, and I know he experiences me completely different than my husband. And that's part of the allure: to him, I'm still fun, I'm still sexual. He knew me before marriage, after all. To my husband, I'm just "his wife" and "the mother of his child". I'm just those two roles, and it's confining, lonely, and BORING.
> 
> But for all that, it's safe. There's security in that, and responsibility, which can't be underestimated and is worth staying for. I like being married. Dating sucks. And knowing my daughter has both her parents around is important. I want her to have her mom and dad around, together, unlike me.
> 
> And it's not as if we don't get along; H and I are great business partners, and we work well together around the house. We make it work, it gets done. As roommates, we're great.
> 
> It's just not intimate. We aren't close. I can't tell him everything, like I do my best friend.
> 
> And I love being something else other than just an asexual "wife" and "mother". I *like *being flirty, smart, and fun -- things the husband just doesn't appreciate. He'd rather I just had the once-a month obligatory missionary sex with no talking, no mental foreplay, no flirting, no fun. He'd rather I never wrote another erotic story or had another fantasy I can't tell him about. He wants the nice wife that never gives him trouble or argues, and cooks on Sundays and has sex when and how he wants it -- with no effort or imagination on his part. I've tried to be as much of that as I can.
> 
> I don't know if I could ever give my friend up. I don't even know if I'd want to. I don't feel conflicted (much). I don't know if H knows or even if he did, if he'd be hurt. He'd probably be relieved that he doesn't have to talk to me about anything anymore!
> 
> I just know that with BF is the only solace/fun/excitement I have, at least emotionally/mentally.


Men like your husband don't respond well to subtleties. If you truly love your husband and want to remain married, sit him down and the two of you talk about your needs, wants and expectations. If you're not both willing to meet each others needs, then it's time to part ways.

Having a guy on the side and justifying it this way is not right at all.


----------



## SomedayDig

Attention would be posters - Do NOT let the thread title fool you. This is NOT a place where your continued affair will be coddled or condoned.

There is no Win-Win in any kind of affair.


----------



## caram3113

BjornFree said:


> Nice to see that you've compartmentalized your affair so well, relegating your husband to good business partner, father and roommate.. And yet you complain that your husband does the same thing and confines you to the role of wife and mother.


Interesting; I didn't think of it that way, especially since he's getting everything he wants, including the kind of sex and intimacy he prefers (i.e. the partnership/father/roomate variety, with the kind of sex he likes thrown in when he wants it.). I can see how the compartmentalization is an issue. 



> This thread was made so that wayward spouses who were willing to put in the hard work to fix their marriages could come and seek guidance from others who were in the same position without drawing unnecessary flak.


As if I didn't want guidance? Okay, let me rephrase my question: What if the person you're having an EA with is the only outlet for said emotional expression? What if you can't be emotionally intimate with your husband? What if counseling isn't optional? (He won't go!/thinks it's stupid/i'm the only one with the problem). 

There, that clear enough? 



> This isn't a platform to justify your affair so if that's what you'd rather do, there is another website called Private Affairs where you can go and seek help to improve the affair sex and make it absolutely fabulous. Just sayin.....


I haven't had "affair sex" with the OM. Again, if you'd read the post, you'd see that we've never even met, and that we aren't physically compatible. _Just saying_.


----------



## courseplotter

You have to ignore Bjorn. He'll just take out his problems on you. And misrepresent the purpose of the thread as stated in post #1, too.

I think you are in a tough spot. Like was said above, blunt communication is the key and if some kid of resolution or arrangement can't be made, you'll need to part ways. If you split, just do it the right way. It's not easy - I speak from experience.


----------



## TCSRedhead

caram3113 said:


> Interesting; I didn't think of it that way, especially since he's getting everything he wants, including the kind of sex and intimacy he prefers (i.e. the partnership/father/roomate variety, with the kind of sex he likes thrown in when he wants it.). I can see how the compartmentalization is an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> As if I didn't want guidance? Okay, let me rephrase my question: What if the person you're having an EA with is the only outlet for said emotional expression? What if you can't be emotionally intimate with your husband? What if counseling isn't optional? (He won't go!/thinks it's stupid/i'm the only one with the problem).
> 
> There, that clear enough?
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't had "affair sex" with the OM. Again, if you'd read the post, you'd see that we've never even met, and that we aren't physically compatible. _Just saying_.


Emotional intimacy is also an affair and equally as wrong. 

Simply stated - drop the OM and focus on fixing your marriage or divorcing.

The problem is that as long as you have this third person in your marriage, the 'issues' you have with your husband will remain and remain exaggerated. 

Have you been blunt this way with your husband? Letting him know that if he cannot meet your needs, you will divorce? Many men (and some women) will assume that if you're not rocking the boat, all is well until something smacks them upside the head.

My H knew things weren't ok but had no idea that my view was so far different than his. I wish that I had been clearer in expressing my unhappiness and that I was checking out of this marriage. I could have avoided a whole world of hurt for us both.


----------



## BK23

caram3113 said:


> Interesting; I didn't think of it that way, especially since he's getting everything he wants, including the kind of sex and intimacy he prefers (i.e. the partnership/father/roomate variety, with the kind of sex he likes thrown in when he wants it.). I can see how the compartmentalization is an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> As if I didn't want guidance? Okay, let me rephrase my question: What if the person you're having an EA with is the only outlet for said emotional expression? What if you can't be emotionally intimate with your husband? What if counseling isn't optional? (He won't go!/thinks it's stupid/i'm the only one with the problem).
> 
> There, that clear enough?
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't had "affair sex" with the OM. Again, if you'd read the post, you'd see that we've never even met, and that we aren't physically compatible. _Just saying_.


I don't know your situation, but the idea that your husband doesn't want physical intimacy sounds... odd. Sounds like you have a lot of communication that needs to happen. I suspect you don't actually know what is going on with your husband, just as he doesn't seem to understand what is going on with you. Counseling is probably a must, unless you don't want to try and fix this.

I know it isn't what you want to hear, but if you want to save your marriage, your friend is going to have to go. Find someone you aren't romantically and sexually interested in to talk to.


----------



## TCSRedhead

caram3113 said:


> What if the OM is actually a *friend*? If you've never met, never will, and have known him for decades? I have no doubt that this would be considered an emotional affair, but he really and truly is my best friend. I talk to him because I can't (believe me, I've tried) talk to my husband. We talk about all the things I can't discuss with him or my friends (Too conservative/judgmental). I don't worry about things getting physical because I'm not his type, and never would be ; I've seen his girlfriends. Physically, he's out of my league! But mentally/emotionally, we get along so well and know each other so well, *it's effortless. *
> 
> I know my friend isn't perfect, and I know he experiences me completely different than my husband. And that's part of the allure: *to him, I'm still fun, I'm still sexual*. He knew me before marriage, after all. To my husband, I'm just "his wife" and "the mother of his child". I'm just those two roles, and it's confining, lonely, and BORING.
> 
> But for all that, it's safe. There's security in that, and responsibility, which can't be underestimated and is worth staying for. I like being married. Dating sucks. And knowing my daughter has both her parents around is important. I want her to have her mom and dad around, together, unlike me.
> 
> And it's not as if we don't get along; H and I are great business partners, and we work well together around the house. We make it work, it gets done. As roommates, we're great.
> 
> It's just not intimate. We aren't close. I can't tell him everything, like I do my best friend.
> 
> *And I love being something else other than just an asexual "wife" and "mother". I like being flirty, smart, and fun -- things the husband just doesn't appreciate. He'd rath*er I just had the once-a month obligatory missionary sex with no talking, no mental foreplay, no flirting, no fun. He'd rather I never wrote another erotic story or had another fantasy I can't tell him about. He wants the nice wife that never gives him trouble or argues, and cooks on Sundays and has sex when and how he wants it -- with no effort or imagination on his part. I've tried to be as much of that as I can.
> 
> I don't know if I could ever give my friend up. I don't even know if I'd want to. I don't feel conflicted (much). I don't know if H knows or even if he did, if he'd be hurt. He'd probably be relieved that he doesn't have to talk to me about anything anymore!
> 
> *I just know that with BF is the only solace/fun/excitement I have, at least emotionally/mentally*.


I've highlighted the areas where you're stating how much this IS violating your marriage. You say that you're not his type but yet you state that he sees you as sexual. This is very wrong. 

Please take measures to come clean to your husband and fix this.


----------



## walkonmars

Caram

Ask your husband if he's getting his emotional needs met somewhere else/with someone else. Tell him you are getting yours met by your online "friend" and will continue to do so.

Ask him to read some of the conversations you've had with the OM. If he's fine with it .... then... roommates (or divorce) it is.


----------



## Acabado

caram3113, we all hear you. OM is wonderful, such a conexion you have. Yeah, keep singing the wonders of your affair.
Why not? Life is short, right?
If he was even slightly interesed in you as a sexual partner you'd leave you husband and kids in a heart beat. And if he wasn't interested in this arrangement you'd choose to be become his permanent mistress, whatever he asked. You know it. You'd rather have this 9 1/2 weeks, torrid affair you are already having in your mind (only becasue OM actually doesn't want you like this) than any other thing in this world you can imagine.
We hear you.
Why did you come here?


----------



## Zanne

Caram, I understand your problem, I really do. But when I said it "appears" to be a win-win, I meant the whole situation is an illusion, because your husband is getting short-changed here even though he doesn't realize it - and you are too, although you may not see that yet.

Are you looking for constructive ideas outside of counseling to wake up your husband? I assume you really want to make things work with him? Was that the intent of your post?


----------



## arbitrator

Caram: You sound exactly like my STBXW. She hooked up with the best friend and fat, out of shape, co-worker of her deceased ex-husband, that she had known since her college days. And she shared secrets with him that she never dreamed of sharing with me!

And then an EA fastly ensued ~ then the PA! Then I was relegated out of her life, largely abandoned by the side of the road.

My question is: Who did you say your marital vows to? Who did you say them in front of as witnesses? Was God one of them?

And no sex with him yet? Well, that's just a matter of time because the physical aspect of love just cements the emotional one. One way or another, that will happen, probably much sooner than you expect! After all, it's only natural!

Your choices are clear. You can't eat cake ~ either take the easy, coward's road and divorce your husband and child, and then go about seeking out the tingly "new life" with this very special person; or do the honorable but more difficult task in committing yourself to righting the "ship of marriage" with your husband, and working to keep a family together.

That choice is now yours to make!


----------



## caram3113

I guess I wanted something that was more of a compromise than a "cut OM off and suffer", but I see that isn't possible. Yeah, I know nobody wants to hear it, but letting go of something like this (even if it is an illusion, and I totally get that) is HARD. 

I'd hoped to hear that this wasn't that bad, that H probably doesn't even care anyway, and that it doesn't hurt him. He's got female friends (one in particular makes me wonder), after all, and it's not like I'm doing anything physical, so what's the harm? Again, that's what I was _hoping _to hear; I heard and understand what you are all saying, and see the wisdom in it. 

Walkonmars, you mentioned his emotional needs and if he's having them met elsewhere. There's a part of me that wonders if that is happening (with aforementioned female friend) and if he even has any. He's _that_ pragmatic and 'what you see is what you get'. He never expresses anything beyond annoyance or "hey, can we have sex?" so honestly, I don't even know. We don't talk about stuff like that -- his decision. 

BK23, I don't want to mislead you; I do my wifely duty to my husband, when he asks. We are physical, but I wouldn't call it intimate by any means. 

TCSRedhead, I tried to be blunt with him; every time it turned into a long argument with him telling me how bad of a wife I am and how "nobody wants to talk about sex like [me]", and that I was screwed up. Laughing/being angry if I tried to take the initiative (lingerie or setting the mood, etc). 

I don't want to be divorced. I don't want to fail at marriage. But I don't want to feel lonely in my marriage, either. I guess I was hoping you lot would have some insight on how (or even if!) those two ideals could be compatible in my situation.


----------



## ReformedHubby

I'm a former wayward and I hate that it is so easy for me to spot other wayward spouses at conferences, in my neighborhood, heck even at church. Its hard to explain but its just sort of like a vibe that wayward people sort of put out there. Kind of like how gay people can tell other people are gay. If you're looking for it its easy to spot. I really feel bad for their spouses but I don't have a close enough personal relationship with them to warn them that they should keep an eye on them. Soooo many nice people that are married to two faced individuals that they would never suspect. 

And, the other side of it is even though I have been on my best behavior the last ten years the fact that waywards know waywards makes it tough. I've had fellow execs send escorts to my hotel room as a "gift" more than once. My neighbors wife makes cat calls at me when I'm running, and point blank asked me what the size of my manhood was one day. I tell my wife everything and thats the only thing that keeps me from screwing up. I really can't relate to waywards that are in the fog, but the cheap thrill type of waywards always seems to follow me wherever I go. I must have a sign on my head that says pervert. I'm no longer that guy but apparently everyone still thinks I am.


----------



## TCSRedhead

You can have an open marriage if you both agree. Otherwise, you're a cheater and that just IS wrong. 

Question: what will you do?


----------



## AnnieAsh

Caram, I totally sympathize with you. My husband is content, therefore I should be content (in his mind.) We have sex, we are great co-parents, and we don't abuse one another. He doesn't understand why I have been so unhappy. 

I turned to om because I wanted someone to talk to me. I wanted someone who WANTED to hear about my feelings and someone who would share HIS. But, you know, I had it and it felt wrong. I was being deceitful and sneaky. On top of that, it wasn't making my home life BETTER, just more bearable. It was like a bandaid on a gunshot wound. It didn't fix anything. Now, I want to FIX it. 

Do you want to FIX your marriage or use om as a crutch?


----------



## BK23

caram3113 said:


> I guess I wanted something that was more of a compromise than a "cut OM off and suffer", but I see that isn't possible. Yeah, I know nobody wants to hear it, but letting go of something like this (even if it is an illusion, and I totally get that) is HARD.
> 
> I'd hoped to hear that this wasn't that bad, that H probably doesn't even care anyway, and that it doesn't hurt him. He's got female friends (one in particular makes me wonder), after all, and it's not like I'm doing anything physical, so what's the harm? Again, that's what I was _hoping _to hear; I heard and understand what you are all saying, and see the wisdom in it.
> 
> Walkonmars, you mentioned his emotional needs and if he's having them met elsewhere. There's a part of me that wonders if that is happening (with aforementioned female friend) and if he even has any. He's _that_ pragmatic and 'what you see is what you get'. He never expresses anything beyond annoyance or "hey, can we have sex?" so honestly, I don't even know. We don't talk about stuff like that -- his decision.
> 
> BK23, I don't want to mislead you; I do my wifely duty to my husband, when he asks. We are physical, but I wouldn't call it intimate by any means.
> 
> TCSRedhead, I tried to be blunt with him; every time it turned into a long argument with him telling me how bad of a wife I am and how "nobody wants to talk about sex like [me]", and that I was screwed up. Laughing/being angry if I tried to take the initiative (lingerie or setting the mood, etc).
> 
> I don't want to be divorced. I don't want to fail at marriage. But I don't want to feel lonely in my marriage, either. I guess I was hoping you lot would have some insight on how (or even if!) those two ideals could be compatible in my situation.


You might just be incompatible. But keep in mind that when you've got a nice, vibrant green patch of grass that you stare longingly at everyday, it has a way of making your own lawn look even deader and more unappealing than it is. 

Like I said, if you want to try and make it work, you need to cut off your "friend." You just can't get reinvested in what sounds like a dying marriage when you are directing all of your romantic energy elsewhere. You and your husband really need a good therapist.


----------



## Zanne

caram3113 said:


> I'd hoped to hear that this wasn't that bad, that H probably doesn't even care anyway, and that it doesn't hurt him.


LOL, I probably would have agreed with you six months ago.

Consider yourself lucky that your eyes have been opened. BUT, how are you going to shake up your husband and get him to realize that your marriage is in crisis??!


----------



## walkonmars

TCSRedhead said:


> *You can have an open marriage if you both agree.* Otherwise, you're a cheater and that just IS wrong.
> 
> Question: what will you do?


Possibly, Caram, you're in one now - secretly of course. 
Ask him ... you may be shocked to know he's been doing the same - and perhaps, unlike you, with someone within reach. (how would you react?)


----------



## Mrs_Mathias

Resurrecting this with a question for remorseful individuals who have been working on overcoming their past choices...

How long before you felt you could begin to work on self-forgiveness?

I'm seven months out, and still struggling daily with the decisions I made and the effects on my husband, my family, myself, and others. I have been in IC regularly, I have a great MC, I feel like I am making progress in recovering, in general, and understanding myself and my vulnerabilities. But I can't turn off that voice in my head that absolutely loathes everything I became during the affair. My husband has been really wonderful to me lately, I am very lucky and grateful to be working on reconciling with him. But now that he is better at preventing angry outbursts towards me, my brain has started to do them on its own, through dreams and general unwanted thoughts.

It's not productive for me to wallow in that, so I don't when I'm awake. I redirect myself, and focus on doing something positive for my family instead. But the dreams are really hard. Sometimes they are so real and seem in "real time" so it's hard for me to know if it actually happened or not.

Anyway, I guess I'm just wondering how some others worked through the path to self-forgiveness. Thanks.


----------



## MattMatt

When the grass on the other side of the fence looks greener, who do some people jump over the fence, but others start to water and feed their own lawn?:scratchhead:


----------



## whowouldhavethought

ScrewedEverything said:


> I am a WS, although "A**hole," "idiot," "scumbag" and other labels seem more appropriate. 4 years into our R things are not going so well. I have done all the right things but I've also done everything wrong.


Sorry but after four years it is time to seriously consider D. She will never forget and unless you want to live your future as you have the past, it is time to go.

WWHT


----------



## CantSitStill

Mrs. M, luckily I haven't had any dreams about the exOM . I do feel like you do though. I beat myself up a lot in my mind. Usually when I'm cleaning house I think to myself.."what the hell was my problem? How dare I hurt calvin the way I did? And why? Why did I count on some useless piece of crap to give me compliments to feel better about myself when I feel worse about myself than ever! ". I have not forgiven myself but am out of the suicidal stage. I am willing to eat now and take care of myself because I am needed and my husband and family and friends want me alive. I need my drive back but it will get there. I will find ways to help others. It's hard, it's crazy but it's life. I hate the person I was at that time but I can change into a better person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Resurrecting this with a question for remorseful individuals who have been working on overcoming their past choices...
> 
> How long before you felt you could begin to work on self-forgiveness?
> 
> I'm seven months out, and still struggling daily with the decisions I made and the effects on my husband, my family, myself, and others. I have been in IC regularly, I have a great MC, I feel like I am making progress in recovering, in general, and understanding myself and my vulnerabilities. But I can't turn off that voice in my head that absolutely loathes everything I became during the affair. My husband has been really wonderful to me lately, I am very lucky and grateful to be working on reconciling with him. But now that he is better at preventing angry outbursts towards me, my brain has started to do them on its own, through dreams and general unwanted thoughts.
> 
> It's not productive for me to wallow in that, so I don't when I'm awake. I redirect myself, and focus on doing something positive for my family instead. But the dreams are really hard. Sometimes they are so real and seem in "real time" so it's hard for me to know if it actually happened or not.
> 
> Anyway, I guess I'm just wondering how some others worked through the path to self-forgiveness. Thanks.


MM, first thing you do is show Matt every day, in every way, how grateful you are that he is getting on board with R. He is a really great guy, isn't he? IN Sweetie and My case, her forgiving herself has always been dependent on my forgiving her. As long as I felt that she was unworthy, she felt so too. I believe that as Matt re-learns to trust you and hopefully love you again, you will learn to love yourself, for what you have become, an FWS, and learn that what you are now isn't what you were in the past. But give it some time, you're pretty early in recovery, yet.


----------



## Affaircare

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Resurrecting this with a question for remorseful individuals who have been working on overcoming their past choices...
> 
> How long before you felt you could begin to work on self-forgiveness?
> 
> ...snip...
> 
> ...But the dreams are really hard. Sometimes they are so real and seem in "real time" so it's hard for me to know if it actually happened or not.
> 
> Anyway, I guess I'm just wondering how some others worked through the path to self-forgiveness. Thanks.


MrsMathias, 

I do not mean this flippantly, but it's several years for me since my affair ended, and I can not honestly say that I struggle with self-forgiveness, but I still remember every day what an enormous gift I've been given by my Dear Hubby. Every day. Years later. 

When I was younger I was abused by my mom, and one of her ways of abusing me was to scream at me for a couple hours each day all the things that were wrong with me. To say that I came out of that childhood with any self-esteem would be ridiculous--I mean I didn't even understand what it would be like to have someone "nurturing" in my life! Foreign concept!! But, I went to counseling and grew up, and I learned that the critical voice in my head, the one that I heard nitpicking every single area of imperfection, magnifying it and making me a worthless pile, was a voice I could overcome. 

I heard that voice in my head saying I was wrong, dirty, worthless, unlovable, and I overcame it by writing a whole pack of Post-It Notes with TRUE sayings, such as "You are valuable" "You may not be perfect but you're loved" "You can make mistakes and it's okay" "If you were wrong, you can make it right" etc. I also wrote on my mirror in soap in a semi-circle so it looked like it was around my head "You are smart, funny and a beautiful person" I put them up EVERYWHERE and every time I saw one, I read it out loud so that not only did I think what the note said, but I heard it with my ears. 

I know that just sounds ridiculous, but my ears had decades of hearing the opposite. I needed to actually hear ...*out loud with my ears*...the truth. And it's not really my spouse's job to get me to love myself--it's MY job! So I had to do that to get my head to realize that I was just like anyone else. I'm not perfect. Sometimes I make big, bad, horrible mistakes. But when I do, I can stop doing the wrong stuff, turn 180 degrees, and make it right. I can't always fix it--sometimes it's broken beyond repair--but I can stop and I can do the right thing. And if I have a chance to fix it, I can be grateful. And if I feel gratitude, I can live in a way that shows it. I can give to others, when I used to think of myself. I have choices. I can change ME. 

And as for forgiveness, here's what it came down to for me. At some point the day comes where continuing to wallow in it is actually my way of just holding onto it and remembering it and sort of harming myself. Forgiveness doesn't mean condoning. It means "it's in the past--I regret it--I've done X and Y to change me--and now I'm looking at where I am NOW and where I want to be in the future." It's like people who hold onto old hurts from others, they want to make them suffer and whatnot but the only one they end up harming is themselves--and it's the same for us. If I don't let it go and just choose to stop, the only one I'm hurting is myself. I have to choose to stop. 

So I did. When it comes up, I'd think "STOP. Stop thinking about it. Stop raking yourself over the coals. STOP." And when I dream, I wake up and cuddle an extra minute with my Dear Hubby and thank God it was just a dream and enjoy being right there with him and appreciate having him in bed. "It was JUST A DREAM and that means it's not real. So STOP and dream about rainbows and unicorns" and I close my eyes and just rest in the cuddle. 

That's what I do, to this day.


----------



## Acabado

New great post Affaircare. Thanks.


----------



## CantSitStill

Hi ya'll. It's been a while since anyone came to this thread. I have a bit of a problem. We are 18 months in R and lately he has been more quiet and distant. We have been doing real well for a long time. We had a great camping trip and he went back to work Monday. That place he works at seems to remind him of the times he got sick at work when I told him there was another man. Real bad memories uggg! Anyway he says he feels I might do it again. He is having his doubts about me. I am trying to reassure him that there is no way in hell I would do such a thing. Any advice?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

CSS, really, all you CAN do is reassure him, as you are doing now. He will have to accept it...or not. It's really up to him whether he accepts what you say, believes it, or not.


----------



## calvin

Maricha75 said:


> CSS, really, all you CAN do is reassure him, as you are doing now. He will have to accept it...or not. It's really up to him whether he accepts what you say, believes it, or not.


I had a couple bad days,other than that things have been as good as they can
get when this crap is forced on you.
The good days still way out weight the bad ones.
Its pretty decent.
Lot better than it was say.......six,ten months ago?
Thing will continue to get better,minor set back,thats all.
Good evening tonday.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## blackdiamonds

CantSitStill said:


> Hi ya'll. It's been a while since anyone came to this thread. I have a bit of a problem. We are 18 months in R and lately he has been more quiet and distant. We have been doing real well for a long time. We had a great camping trip and he went back to work Monday. That place he works at seems to remind him of the times he got sick at work when I told him there was another man. Real bad memories uggg! Anyway he says he feels I might do it again. He is having his doubts about me. I am trying to reassure him that there is no way in hell I would do such a thing. Any advice?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm over a year in R and there are times BH does get some triggers or doubts me. I can't blame him but all I can do is just keep reassuring him and being transparent with him to let him know that I won't cheat (again) and that I have no interest in doing so.


----------



## calmwinds

Bump. Because some of us BS's gain some understanding reading this thread. It helps to know how you feel and what you go through. Thank you all for having the courage to post here.


----------



## lookingforsupport

Hey, am bumping this because I haven't been around in a while.

Here's my thing. I'm the WS and we are now 5+ months after DDay, still living together and in R. I've been going to therapy, show her my phone whenever she asks, gave her email password, etc. I made a bad mistake over a year ago and regret it all the time.

On her good days, she wants to be married to me and we are making plans for the future.

But on her bad days, look out. She will text me for hours at a time, berating me with: you're a loser, you're a *****, you're disgusting, I'm changing the locks, you're pathetic, I hate you, and on and on. She never apologizes for it, and gets pissed if i don't engage with her, which never calms her down, just provokes her more. 

When I tell my friends, they all ask the same thing: how long can you put up with this? And I honestly don't know. I want to save my marriage, and at some level I know her anger is justified, but this feels like a punishment that is not about getting better at all. She refuses to attend MC with me, because "you are the sick f*** who couldn't keep his d*** in his pants, why should I have to go" etc.

Did other people have this? How long did it last? Any advice on how I might get her to move to true forgiveness and let it go a bit?


----------



## lisab0105

lookingforsupport said:


> Hey, am bumping this because I haven't been around in a while.
> 
> Here's my thing. I'm the WS and we are now 5+ months after DDay, still living together and in R. I've been going to therapy, show her my phone whenever she asks, gave her email password, etc. I made a bad mistake over a year ago and regret it all the time.
> 
> On her good days, she wants to be married to me and we are making plans for the future.
> 
> But on her bad days, look out. She will text me for hours at a time, berating me with: you're a loser, you're a *****, you're disgusting, I'm changing the locks, you're pathetic, I hate you, and on and on. She never apologizes for it, and gets pissed if i don't engage with her, which never calms her down, just provokes her more.
> 
> When I tell my friends, they all ask the same thing: how long can you put up with this? And I honestly don't know. I want to save my marriage, and at some level I know her anger is justified, but this feels like a punishment that is not about getting better at all. She refuses to attend MC with me, because "you are the sick f*** who couldn't keep his d*** in his pants, why should I have to go" etc.
> 
> Did other people have this? How long did it last? Any advice on how I might get her to move to true forgiveness and let it go a bit?


5 months is drop in the bucket. She is still overwhelmed by her pain that you caused. You just need to accept her wrath when it comes and tell her you're sorry as often as she needs it. I promise, the uncomfortable feelings you have during her bad days are nothing compared to what she feels on a daily basis. It will lesson over time. I'm 2 1/2 years out and there are moments every day I want to rip my WS face off. YOU don't get to move her towards anything...she gets there on her own when she's ready...when she feels you are not going to break her heart again. Cheating kills our soul...you have to be patient.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

lookingforsupport said:


> Hey, am bumping this because I haven't been around in a while.
> 
> Here's my thing. I'm the WS and we are now 5+ months after DDay, still living together and in R. I've been going to therapy, show her my phone whenever she asks, gave her email password, etc. I made a bad mistake over a year ago and regret it all the time.
> 
> On her good days, she wants to be married to me and we are making plans for the future.
> 
> But on her bad days, look out. She will text me for hours at a time, berating me with: you're a loser, you're a *****, you're disgusting, I'm changing the locks, you're pathetic, I hate you, and on and on. She never apologizes for it, and gets pissed if i don't engage with her, which never calms her down, just provokes her more.
> 
> When I tell my friends, they all ask the same thing: how long can you put up with this? And I honestly don't know. I want to save my marriage, and at some level I know her anger is justified, but this feels like a punishment that is not about getting better at all. She refuses to attend MC with me, because "you are the sick f*** who couldn't keep his d*** in his pants, why should I have to go" etc.


Being angry and letting you know is one thing - perfectly warranted. Abuse is another thing altogether. ABUSE IS NOT OKAY. You could bear with it for a bit after d-day, but not 5+ months after d-day and in R. If she can still attack you like this and refuses to go to MC with you, she may need to let you go. I'll say it again: ABUSE IS NOT OKAY. 



lookingforsupport said:


> Did other people have this? How long did it last? Any advice on how I might get her to move to true forgiveness and let it go a bit?


I never had anything like this treatment from my betrayed. You sound like you are already doing what you can to help yours, so it's really up to her to respond to that. As to when that might be...that will be up to her as well.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: A Thread For Wayward/Wandering/Disloyal Spouses*



lookingforsupport said:


> Hey, am bumping this because I haven't been around in a while.
> 
> Here's my thing. I'm the WS and we are now 5+ months after DDay, still living together and in R. I've been going to therapy, show her my phone whenever she asks, gave her email password, etc. I made a bad mistake over a year ago and regret it all the time.
> 
> On her good days, she wants to be married to me and we are making plans for the future.
> 
> But on her bad days, look out. She will text me for hours at a time, berating me with: you're a loser, you're a *****, you're disgusting, I'm changing the locks, you're pathetic, I hate you, and on and on. She never apologizes for it, and gets pissed if i don't engage with her, which never calms her down, just provokes her more.
> 
> When I tell my friends, they all ask the same thing: how long can you put up with this? And I honestly don't know. I want to save my marriage, and at some level I know her anger is justified, but this feels like a punishment that is not about getting better at all. She refuses to attend MC with me, because "you are the sick f*** who couldn't keep his d*** in his pants, why should I have to go" etc.
> 
> Did other people have this? How long did it last? Any advice on how I might get her to move to true forgiveness and let it go a bit?


It takes 2-5 years on average for the BS to work through their pain from your betrayal. During this time they will cycle through the stages of grief which includes anger, denial, depression, etc. I suggest that you read up on these stages so that you can be better prepared for when your wife experiences all these stages which may come at any time and in any order including more than one at the same time. The hard truth is that you have put her on this rollercoaster and now you need to decide whether you have the courage and determination to stick with her while she goes on this ride through hell.


----------



## StarGazer101

how do the bad days come about? 

How you respond to your BS is key - if you are giving off a vibe that you just need to see her moving on then I expect that the bad days escalate pretty quickly.

Do you acknowledge her pain and your responsibility? Do you *listen* to what she is *actually* saying. Do you comfort and reassure her? Do you answer questions fully and honestly? Do you empathise with the hurt and show compassion for the trauma that you inflicted? Do you give her the time and attention she needs?

Are you remorseful or are you just in a hurry to get to a better place for you? 

How does she see you on the bad days? If you can communicate remorse that you will give her all the time she needs to heal I think that would make a huge difference.


----------



## bfree

One other thing I'd like to add. While it is true that some BS's just cannot get over being betrayed it had been my observation that their recovery is often directly related to how willing the WS is to atone for their terrible deed and do the heavy lifting required to rebuild trust and build a new marriage. Maybe the question you should be asking is not why can't she get over it but what more can you do to help her get over it.


----------



## Falling1000x

As a BS, I thank you all for the wonderful posts.
It gives me an insight on how my WS might feels.
It's been 7 months since our D-Day, and we are working so hard to fix things. 
He's very sincere and willing to do everything it takes to fix our relationship.
Sometimes when we fight, and I brought up about the A, he got sad, not angry, never angry.
He said that he feels like he'll have to pay for that mistake for the rest of his life and he's willing to do that.

I don't want to hurt him, I want us to work, but the pain is always there.
I think about the A and the OW almost every single day, I tried to shut my mind from that awful memory, but it's just hard.

He made mistake, I forgave him, I can't forget right now, I may not be able to forget what he did. 
But I admire his effort to regain my trust, to ease my pain, and just helping me to cope with this.

If he is here on TAM and reading this, I just want to say, that I can be cruel when I am angry or when the triggers struck me, but please don't give up on me.. like I didn't give up on you..


----------



## remorseful strayer

Maricha75 said:


> CSS, really, all you CAN do is reassure him, as you are doing now. He will have to accept it...or not. It's really up to him whether he accepts what you say, believes it, or not.


I agree with this. 

At some point, though, he is going to have to stop refocusing on the affair, otherwise the reconciliation will fail because neither will trust each other.


----------



## remorseful strayer

lookingforsupport said:


> Hey, am bumping this because I haven't been around in a while.
> 
> Here's my thing. I'm the WS and we are now 5+ months after DDay, still living together and in R. I've been going to therapy, show her my phone whenever she asks, gave her email password, etc. I made a bad mistake over a year ago and regret it all the time.
> 
> On her good days, she wants to be married to me and we are making plans for the future.
> 
> But on her bad days, look out. She will text me for hours at a time, berating me with: you're a loser, you're a *****, you're disgusting, I'm changing the locks, you're pathetic, I hate you, and on and on. She never apologizes for it, and gets pissed if i don't engage with her, which never calms her down, just provokes her more.
> 
> When I tell my friends, they all ask the same thing: how long can you put up with this? And I honestly don't know. I want to save my marriage, and at some level I know her anger is justified, but this feels like a punishment that is not about getting better at all. She refuses to attend MC with me, because "you are the sick f*** who couldn't keep his d*** in his pants, why should I have to go" etc.
> 
> Did other people have this? How long did it last? Any advice on how I might get her to move to true forgiveness and let it go a bit?


You won't be able to put up with it for long. Perhaps her inability to discuss things intelligently and calmly is in part why you wrongly resorted to cheating. 

Bring her to counseling, but let her know that if her constant berating continues you will likely file for divorce. 

Her behavior is aggressive and if she's not ALL IN, regarding the reconciliation, you are both wasting your time. 

BTW: If she is refusing marriage counseling, that is not good, it says she's afraid to confront herself. 

Is she at least in IC?


----------



## remorseful strayer

Falling1000x said:


> As a BS, I thank you all for the wonderful posts.
> It gives me an insight on how my WS might feels.
> It's been 7 months since our D-Day, and we are working so hard to fix things.
> He's very sincere and willing to do everything it takes to fix our relationship.
> Sometimes when we fight, and I brought up about the A, he got sad, not angry, never angry.
> He said that he feels like he'll have to pay for that mistake for the rest of his life and he's willing to do that.
> 
> I don't want to hurt him, I want us to work, but the pain is always there.
> I think about the A and the OW almost every single day, I tried to shut my mind from that awful memory, but it's just hard.
> 
> He made mistake, I forgave him, I can't forget right now, I may not be able to forget what he did.
> But I admire his effort to regain my trust, to ease my pain, and just helping me to cope with this.
> 
> If he is here on TAM and reading this, I just want to say, that I can be cruel when I am angry or when the triggers struck me, but please don't give up on me.. like I didn't give up on you..


If you love him, you shouldn't forget and it's okay to be angry and sad. 

But berating, cursing, withholding, etc, is abuse. 

If a BS is still being abusive five months out and refuses counseling for it, then perhaps it is time for both to move on. 

Even a temporary divorce might turn things around, if a loyal spouse is being verbally abusive five months out and still refuses counseling. 

Just as the cheater agreed to stop cheating the loyal spouse must agree to stop being abusive at some point.


----------



## cpacan

remorseful strayer said:


> If you love him, you shouldn't forget and it's okay to be angry and sad.
> 
> But berating, cursing, *withholding, etc, is abuse*.
> 
> If a BS is still being abusive *five months out* and refuses counseling for it, then perhaps it is time for both to move on.
> 
> Even a temporary divorce might turn things around, if a loyal spouse is being verbally abusive five months out and still refuses counseling.
> 
> Just as the cheater agreed to stop cheating the loyal spouse must agree to stop being abusive at some point.


Would you be kind and expand on this? I read it as if you say, that if a BS that can't express true feelings of love and/or withhold intimacy after 5 months then it's abuse, and that they might as well seperate then - is this correct?


----------



## remorseful strayer

cpacan said:


> Would you be kind and expand on this? I read it as if you say, that if a BS that can't express true feelings of love and/or withhold intimacy after 5 months then it's abuse, and that they might as well seperate then - is this correct?


To Clarify:

IMO, It may be normal that a BS can't express themselves productively. 

In that case, they should be willing to see a counselor. 

Abuse is yelling, cursing, berating by using names such as "****, *****, lowlife, etc." Refusing to see a counselor upon request is also abusive. It does not show a willingness, to resolve things productively or to face their own issues.

Anger is normal, a loud discussion is not yelling , as long as what is said is productive and does not involve cursing and insults.

By intimacy, I don't mean sex. It may be normal to not want sex after someone cheated. Still that should be waning after 5 months.


----------



## bfree

This doesn't take into account the stages of grief that all betrayed spouses go through, especially the anger stage. And it takes 2-5 years (not months) for a betrayed spouse to work through their feelings of betrayal. And I totally disagree. Cursing, insulting and yelling are totally normal.


----------



## remorseful strayer

bfree said:


> This doesn't take into account the stages of grief that all betrayed spouses go through, especially the anger stage. And it takes 2-5 years (not months) for a betrayed spouse to work through their feelings of betrayal. And I totally disagree. Cursing, insulting and yelling are totally normal.



*No........, cursing insulting and yelling are not normal, a*fter five months, and the refusal to seek counseling at the WS's request is also abusive. 

Nothing will get resolved unless discussion can be civil. 

A loud robust discussion is not yelling. 

People who can't discuss an issue without screaming, cursing, berating, insulting, have never learned to communicate well. 

Even without cheating, a marriage in which intelligent communication is not possible will break down quickly and divorce is inevitable. 

An aggressive outburst immediately in the aftermath of discovery is normal, but that should be short lived. 

Grief has nothing to do with yelling berating insulting, etc.


----------



## cpacan

remorseful strayer said:


> *No........, cursing insulting and yelling are not normal, a*fter five months, and the refusal to seek counseling at the WS's request is also abusive.
> 
> Nothing will get resolved unless discussion can be civil.
> 
> A loud robust discussion is not yelling.
> 
> People who can't discuss an issue without screaming, cursing, berating, insulting, have never learned to communicate well.
> 
> Even without cheating, a marriage in which intelligent communication is not possible will break down quickly and divorce is inevitable.
> 
> An aggressive outburst immediately in the aftermath of discovery is normal, but that should be short lived.
> 
> Grief has nothing to do with yelling berating insulting, etc.


How is it, that YOU can tell ME to go to counselling, and if I say no, I'm abusing you?? I don't get that logic at all. It's not for all to seek counselling - my WS has refused it all along, I respect that.

Why do you expect a BS who has been traumatized to act more mature, calm and loving than their WS - even when they have just been emotionally abused and humiliated themselves by infidelity?

I can assure you, that I normally have a very quiet and calm temper, I am usually a very balanced and relaxed person, way above average - while I didn't call her names, i certainly yelled at her on some occassions - not proud of it, but I admit that emotions, hurt and frustrations got the best of me after a betrayal like this.

If it's normal for a WS to expect recovery and everything back to normal within 5 months, no wonder we see so many frustrated betrayed spouses in various threads, if they are all expected to just suck it up and get over it already.

With all respect; I get the feeling that you haven't been even close to have experienced a betrayal like this. I hope you're not representing the majority here.


----------



## Truthseeker1

cpacan said:


> How is it, that YOU can tell ME to go to counselling, and if I say no, I'm abusing you?? I don't get that logic at all. It's not for all to seek counselling - my WS has refused it all along, I respect that.
> 
> Why do you expect a BS who has been traumatized to act more mature, calm and loving than their WS - even when they have just been emotionally abused and humiliated themselves by infidelity?
> 
> I can assure you, that I normally have a very quiet and calm temper, I am usually a very balanced and relaxed person, way above average - while I didn't call her names, i certainly yelled at her on some occassions - not proud of it, but I admit that emotions, hurt and frustrations got the best of me after a betrayal like this.
> 
> If it's normal for a WS to expect recovery and everything back to normal within 5 months, no wonder we see so many frustrated betrayed spouses in various threads, if they are all expected to just suck it up and get over it already.
> 
> With all respect; I get the feeling that you haven't been even close to have experienced a betrayal like this. I hope you're not representing the majority here.


:iagree: Some people just don't get it until the knife is stuck in their back and their life is changed forever.


----------



## bfree

remorseful strayer said:


> *No........, cursing insulting and yelling are not normal, a*fter five months, and the refusal to seek counseling at the WS's request is also abusive.
> 
> Nothing will get resolved unless discussion can be civil.
> 
> A loud robust discussion is not yelling.
> 
> People who can't discuss an issue without screaming, cursing, berating, insulting, have never learned to communicate well.
> 
> Even without cheating, a marriage in which intelligent communication is not possible will break down quickly and divorce is inevitable.
> 
> An aggressive outburst immediately in the aftermath of discovery is normal, but that should be short lived.
> 
> Grief has nothing to do with yelling berating insulting, etc.


What is your experience with infidelity? Either you have never experienced this level of betrayal or you are the one that betrayed someone. Five months is a drop in the bucket when it comes to working through feelings regarding infidelity. And I don't know one BS that did not at some point and on some level insult, yell, etc. Furthermore if you don't think grief can trigger anger and all its derivatives then you have lived a very sheltered life.


----------



## Truthseeker1

bfree said:


> What is your experience with infidelity? Either you have never experienced this level of betrayal or you are the one that betrayed someone. Five months is a drop in the bucket when it comes to working through feelings regarding infidelity. And I don't know one BS that did not at some point and on some level insult, yell, etc. Furthermore if you don't think grief can trigger anger and all its derivatives then you have lived a very sheltered life.


And the feelings of being unworthy are a killer. You think you are defective because THEY CHOSE to cheat. It is a clusterfvck that seeps into everything you do. There are people still triggering decades later that's how serious the betrayal is.


----------



## CEL

Well I have never been cheated on I will get that out there. But I do know abuse physical, verbal and sexual so yeah I think I can put my hat in this one. Here is an article on emotional abuse.

http://www.counselingcenter.illinois.edu/self-help-brochures/relationship-problems/emotional-abuse/


If you have been betrayed you are of course entitled to your anger in fact everyone is entitled to their feelings. Here is where it gets tricky how you express that anger is either going to be okay or abusive. If you are yelling, cursing, belittling or berating your spouse then you are being abusive. Abusive behavior does not care about the reason why you are that way it is a behavior not an emotion. If a person decided that they could physically beat their WS would you say well sure after all they cheated? No of course you would not but you will defend the acts of verbal abuse. Here is the thing many time people commit suicide because of verbal abuse. The brain does not distinguish between physical pain and emotional pain. They light up in the same pattern

Your argument also has a slippery slope argument so abuse is okay if they cheat but where is the line? Yes you can express yourself but you still need to do it in an appropriate way. My IC has a saying "words are not for hurting and fists are not for hitting."


----------



## Truthseeker1

CEL said:


> Well I have never been cheated on I will get that out there. But I do know abuse physical, verbal and sexual so yeah I think I can put my hat in this one. Here is an article on emotional abuse.
> 
> Counseling Center » Emotional Abuse
> 
> 
> If you have been betrayed you are of course entitled to your anger in fact everyone is entitled to their feelings. Here is where it gets tricky how you express that anger is either going to be okay or abusive. If you are yelling, cursing, belittling or berating your spouse then you are being abusive. Abusive behavior does not care about the reason why you are that way it is a behavior not an emotion. If a person decided that they could physically beat their WS would you say well sure after all they cheated? No of course you would not but you will defend the acts of verbal abuse. Here is the thing many time people commit suicide because of verbal abuse. The brain does not distinguish between physical pain and emotional pain. They light up in the same pattern
> 
> Your argument also has a slippery slope argument so abuse is okay if they cheat but where is the line?* Yes you can express yourself but you still need to do it in an appropriate way. *My IC has a saying "words are not for hurting and fists are not for hitting."


When you find out the person you love more than anything has been banging someone else get back to me on the appropriate verbal reaction.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Yup. The practice of self-control and an appropriate verbal expressiong becomes quite a different animal when you are the betrayed. I think I said, "darn it, would you please stop fvcking your co-worker." Not sure if that crossed the line.  LOL!

No offense CEL, but it is like having your heart ripped from your chest. It would be like getting stabbed, and not flinching from the pain.


----------



## CEL

Okay lets put this out there. I was beaten as a child by my moms boyfriends. Verbally abused. And was sexually assaulted. So I kinda get pain. This was done by my family. So I don't appreciate people saying I don't get how much a person can hurt. I'm done.


----------



## angelpixie

My ex had multiple EAs while we were together. Was never remorseful, never ever even acknowledged them as betrayal. I was simply not allowed to act as a betrayed spouse, since in his mind, I wasn't. No expressions of grief or anger or anything else. On one DDay, I found email between him and the OW in the late afternoon, and I was expected to have put it behind me and feel sorry for him for his lack of boundaries by dinner time. I was a betrayed spouse on the inside, obviously, and it nearly destroyed me. 

My ex was also verbally and emotionally abusive. So I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of that, too. There's anger and there's abuse. There's rage, and there's abuse. There's the expression of hurt, betrayal, and pain, and there's abuse. Lookingforsupport's W is not just expressing her feelings. She's trying to hurt him with her words. She is _choosing_ that language, calling him those names by choice. It's not something she cannot control. If she doesn't think she can forgive him, that's her right. If she doesn't think she'll ever trust him again, that's perfectly valid. If she doesn't want to reconcile, she doesn't have to. But healing will not come about if she is now inflicting pain. A person can express pain, and anger and betrayal without purposely trying to hurt the other person. If a WS is truly remorseful, and is doing everything s/he can to make things better, what is served by bring that kind of destructive behavior into the mix? Express anger. Express hurt. Express betrayal. And yes, there's not a damn thing wrong with expecting maturity out of an adult. Nobody is entitled to be abusive. Nobody is entitled to anything, really. As spouses, we either both agree to do whatever needs to be done to heal the marriage, or we don't.


----------



## clipclop2

Looking without knowing the actual nature of what you did it's hard to really judge her based on her anger. First thing that jumps out to me is that you call it a mistake. It wasn't a mistake. It wasn't on purpose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

I recall correctly remorseful cheated a lot and ended up getting kicked to the curb. Some of his advice lately hasn't sat well with me because it has been putting more of the responsibility on the BS then I think is appropriate. 

I don't really remember him being like this when she first got here. Maybe he is getting a little bit burnt out by hearing how horrible cheaters are. I think after a while it would be hard on someone who comes from that angle And not in some way to take it very personally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Remorseful cheaters who are trying to atone will receive support. Those that try to rugsweep, not so much.


----------



## WyshIknew

Not a wayward, and I don't know if I am a betrayed, I Wysh I Knew. Although my wife has assured me that I was never actually betrayed.

I'd like to ask a question based on a few threads I've been following.

How does a wayward deal with their affair knowing that their partner has been faithful to them all this time?

Even if the BS has forgiven them for their affair, does the guilt not surface from time to time?

Months, a year, years later?

As much as a betrayed spouse gets triggers, a wayward must also have triggers that never go away.

Every time you hear of adultery in an acquaintances marriage and people say "isn't it awful, it's a good job your marriage is strong."

Or an adultery scenario while watching a film or tv show.

Every time your spouse does something really nice for you like a surprise holiday, a gift, it must smart.

At these time the shame and sorrow for what you have done must become overwhelming. Or does that fade over time?

At that time I suppose the BS must show what a big big heart they have and comfort their former wayward.

Sorry, I suppose it is a silly question in many ways, but I was just wondering.


----------



## soulpotato

WIK, there was recently some discussion about this on another thread amongst us former waywards. And yes, we do have triggers in just those ways. I doubt they will ever go away. Maybe lessen with time as we proceed with R, just as they seem to be lessening for my betrayed partner. I have trouble watching movies or tv shows with infidelity in them and will just turn them off or change the channel. (This also applies to books, games, whatever.) I have a married male coworker who is happily having an affair (EA?) with a married woman and wants to talk about it with me. Before I would just let him talk, but now I say, "You either need to go to MC with your wife or you need to leave your wife," and refuse to discuss it further. 

I do still cry and have nightmares on a regular basis. My betrayed has nightmares and cries sometimes, too.  It does hurt when she's kind to me or shows that she was really thinking about me or feeling love for me, but when that happens, I just redouble my efforts to do the same for her and work on myself.


----------



## missthelove2013

clipclop2 said:


> Looking without knowing the actual nature of what you did it's hard to really judge her based on her anger. First thing that jumps out to me is that you call it a mistake. It wasn't a mistake. It wasn't on purpose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


an affair/infidelity is NEVER a mistake, its ALWAYS an "on purpose"...unless the AP puts on a mask and the ws thinks its their spouse 

you dont trip and fall onto another mans penis, or trip and fall inside another woman...infidelity is not a mistake...there is always intention/deceit/lies/sneaking around/manipulation and justification...hardly a mistake


----------



## Kermitty

No one has the right to use someone else as an emotional punching bag. If you can't express your anger in a healthy manner, get help. Two wrongs don't make a right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

Kermitty said:


> No one has the right to use someone else as an emotional punching bag. If you can't express your anger in a healthy manner, get help. Two wrongs don't make a right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While I agree with this I also completely understand the histrionic outbursts that most BS's have due to the emotional torture of infidelity. The way I see it, how would someone react to an individual that just shot and killed their husband/wife or children? Because infidelity is a death...the death of a marriage. That is why cheating triggers the stages of grief, one of which is anger.


----------



## hopefulgirl

There are a lot of cultural and generational differences about what constitutes "abuse." Some people come from cultures where they yell a lot and really don't consider that to be "abuse." People of a certain age (and certain cultures) truly believe that if a woman finds out her husband cheated on her and she just slaps him in the face and doesn't all-out slug him, he got off easy. Just because you think something is "wrong" doesn't make it so.

When someone is traumatized with this kind of betrayal, it IS like finding out your spouse is dead. A podperson has inhabited his body - you wonder, who IS this lying, horrible person who has just ended your marriage as you knew it? The podperson is the murderer who killed your spouse.

BS's are both traumatized AND grief-stricken. We aren't going to be exhibiting the best manners at all times through our healing process. To call us "abusers" (unless we try to humiliate, or all-out slug our WS's) is cruel and in most cases, a form of blame-shifting. If a WS has a narrow definition of abuse, then he or she should get out early on because R isn't pretty. It can get downright ugly - though not as ugly as infidelity is. Throwing the word "abuse" around may be all politically correct, but does it promote reconciliation?

S--t may be flung during R, but unless a WS is subjected to being humiliated or being slugged, the pain experienced from that which is flung won't even come CLOSE to the pain of being a betrayed spouse.

Suggestions for lookingforsupport: 1 - Apologize daily or near daily if you're not already (you can't apologize too much), which means YOU bring up the subject (don't worry - she's thinking about it every day, and she will appreciate your being proactive). 2 - Get the book How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda MacDonald.


----------



## angelpixie

#1) Infidelity is not automatically the death of a marriage. It may be the death of the perception you had of your marriage. Or it may indeed be over. There are couples who have survived infidelity, but their marriages have been forever changed.

#2) As I stated above, there is a difference between expressing anger, shock, rage, pain, humiliation, hurt, etc., and purposely saying and doing things to inflict pain on someone else. That's when it becomes abuse. It's actually pretty easy to tell the difference: Look at the motive behind it.

Why is it necessary to make the WS feel the exact same pain, humiliation, anger, betrayal as we BS' have? If they truly feel remorse, truly regret what they've done and own up to the fact that it was a choice they made to act that way, if they truly empathise with our pain, and do the heavy-lifting to try to repair the relationship...What purpose does it serve to keep heaping sh!t on them? And if they don't show any of those things, then the BS' might as well leave, because heaping sh!t on them won't change them, and only turns the BS' into angry, bitter, vengeful people. And the more angry, bitter, and vengeful the BS becomes, the more it makes the people around the couple wonder just what led the WS to stray. Sad and unfair, but true. The BS ends up shooting him/herself in the foot. 

Nobody is calling anger 'abuse' in order to promote reconciliation. And nobody is calling anger 'abuse' in order to lessen the evil of infidelity. It's to distinguish between two types of anger. It has nothing to do with political correctness. What the poster above described did sound humiliating, to me, and I am a BS. It didn't sound like it was doing much to promote R, either. 

True, healing and grieving are both processes. But as much as I really hate the devastation that is brought about by infidelity, I do not think it gives the BS carte blanche to do and say whatever s/he wants in the name of 'grieving' or because at least it's not as bad as cheating.


----------



## hopefulgirl

angelpixie, I really am glad to see your obviously compassionate approach. I am in R, and I want to see other couples make it too. A lot of people on TAM don't show any compassion toward WS's and I'm glad to see you posting because you do!

I think we just differ in how we've read between the lines. I am more in clipclop's camp in that I'm sensing a major problem, for example, with the word choice of "mistake" - if that word has come up with lookingforsupport's wife, I can see where she'd fly off the handle - which I don't see as premeditated attempts to humiliate. I think that word choice may indicate he's using other words and phrases that show her he really doesn't "get it," and other than the transparency (which is great), he may not be truly doing the WORK to help her heal the deep wounds that HE inflicted.

He has said that he regrets what he has done, but there was no mention of his letting his wife KNOW that on a regular basis (hence my suggestion that he apologize almost daily, if he's not already doing that). And I don't think it's necessarily wrong for his wife to refuse MC - we didn't start our MC until 6 months past D-Day because I wanted MY messed up WS to use IC to start trying to figure out what on earth happened to him (lying was completely out of character for him) before I would even consider MC with him.

So my take is that his wife is traumatized and reactive due to being in pain, and he may be stepping on landmines that he has planted - perhaps unknowingly, but I suspect he may be the one who put them there. That's why I suggested Linda MacDonald's very helpful, easy to read (and short!) book.


----------



## angelpixie

Oh, I totally agree with you Hopefulgirl about infidelity not being a 'mistake.' It's a choice, and the WS always has to own up to that. My posts are made with the assumption that the WS is owning up to that choice, and showing remorse, understanding and empathy (which includes listening and comforting the BS, showing compassion when the BS deals with triggers), etc. If those things are not there, R is not going to work, no matter what the BS does. Likewise, if the WS does all of those things, but the BS hangs on to anger to the point of it turning into abuse, then R also will not work. 

After having been through it myself, and seeing that my Ex had none of that remorse, empathy, or even acknowledgement of the seriousness of what he did, I truly agree with something Someday Dig wrote in a post in CWI -- you'll know pretty quickly whether or not your WS is really committed to R after infidelity. Either the WS is all-in, or they're not. You can't force someone to be responsible or empathetic. Certainly not by getting angry with him or her. If you are not getting what you need as a BS, respect yourself enough to leave before you are destroyed.

I didn't really comment on the subject of MC, but based on my own experience, I wouldn't just want MC without IC for _both_ partners. Each spouse is dealing with individual issues due to the infidelity, and I'd be very surprised if MC would work in a vacuum.


----------



## bfree

There is a fine line between allowing a necessary expression of anger and letting it slip into the realm of abusive behavior. I guess what I see is that if the BS truly wants to recover the marriage they really won't want to hurt the WS regardless of how much pain and anguish is heaped upon them. This is why in my original comment I asked if the poster was doing enough to help heal their BS and if they were actively seeking ways to do the heavy lifting required to restore the trust in the relationship. It just seems to me that if the WS is truly remorseful and working to recover the marriage the BS would see that effort and meet them halfway. If the BS is continually expressing anger then my first thought is that there is something missing on the part of the WS. Otherwise I couldn't see why either is still in the marriage at all.


----------



## Affaircare

In my first marriage, I was the Loyal Spouse--my exH cheated on me, I would have reconciled but he would not stop, and I did NOT want a divorce. In my second marriage I was the Disloyal Spouse, to my lifelong regret. I bring this up though because as I answer, I'm not just a Disloyal focusing on "my side"--I've been betrayed and I've cried for three days and nights straight until my eyes swelled shut. BTDT so to speak. 

I think it is important to remember that when we are betrayed by the one we loved and trusted, the hurt is GIGANTIC but even in that frame of mind where we are half insane with grief, we are STILL responsible for our own behavior and choices! I used to think that my husband "made" me happy or "made" me angry. When he cheated, he "made" me respond in rage....right?

Well actually that's just not true. When he betrayed me, I could have done any number of things: from a complete shut-down to a complete freak out. I could have chosen to ignore it and go into denial. I could have chosen to hurt him as badly as he hurt me. I had a zillion options. And in the end, even if he acted like a complete JERK A$$ and was verbally and mentally and even PHYSICALLY abusive, that does not give me the right to "do it back to him." Even in the event of physical abuse, my job at that point is to defend myself from further physical hurt and remove myself from immediate danger. It is not to "hurt him back." 

So yes, it is UTTERLY appropriate for the Loyal Spouse to be angry, to express that anger in a healthy and mature way, and to work through the anger either with or without the Disloyal Spouse. It is NOT appropriate for the Loyal Spouse to be given free reign to verbally, emotionally or mentally abuse their Disloyal Spouse. Now... I agree that some things kind of walk a line, such as calling your Disloyal Spouse a Cheater or an Adulterer because hey that's just the truth! But it could be said in a spirit of causing harm to the other person, and that really is what abuse is. 

So that term "Abuse" is thrown about like some magic charm--"When I use this term it gives me free reign to act in inappropriate ways because I accused it." No it doesn't. Even when your spouse does abuse you by every definition of the book, TWO WRONGS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT. You still don't have the right to abuse them back; you have the right to defend yourself and get out.


----------



## user_zero

Affaircare said:


> In my first marriage.....


I simply love your post


----------



## soulpotato

bfree said:


> It just seems to me that if the WS is truly remorseful and working to recover the marriage the BS would see that effort and meet them halfway.


I don't think this is always the case. Sometimes the BS, even while wanting to recover the marriage, will feel that all the problems and work belong to the WS, regardless of the pre-affair issues that might have existed in the marriage/relationship. As we know, R is impossible if only one party is working on it.



bfree said:


> If the BS is continually expressing anger then my first thought is that there is something missing on the part of the WS. Otherwise I couldn't see why either is still in the marriage at all.


Why does it automatically have to be that the WS isn't doing something? Affairs are deep and traumatic betrayals, so even if the WS does everything right in the effort to help the BS heal, it still may not be possible. Which doesn't mean that the BS or the WS didn't try or do everything that could be done. Both may remain in the marriage thinking that they can address the breakdowns and recover, even if they come to find later that they can't.


----------



## cpacan

There is one thing about this discussion about abuse that I don't quite understand, and no one tried to answer the question before, so I'll ask it again.

Why do you all take for granted that the BS will act so much more mature and healthy than her/his WS - especially upon a major betrayal like infidelity?

If R is to succeed, the WS must be cut some slack, the BS must accept what happened, the WS not being the perfect image as one thought they were, flaws in character, the WS stages of grief etc.

And yet you advocate that the BS must keep performing at his best, acting all healthy and mature all the time, no slack required?

I really wish that I had been that mature on D-day, so I in a calmly manner could have said "There's the door - use it" - I think the aftermath would have played out differently, but sadly, I must admit that my emotions were in control during the initial days after D-day. Maybe because I had never been in a situation like this before, or maybe because I'm human too, just like most WS would like me to acknowledge the same about them (which I do).

And just to be absolutely clear, if it isn't already; I never raised my hand against her, didn't call her names or something like that - I'm guilty of yelling during a very few arguments we had - it was mutual though.


----------



## hopefulgirl

For the sake of discussion - there are some neighborhoods in some urban areas that have a high concentration of Italian families. Some of them "express themselves" very differently than non-Italian families do - that is, at a high decibel level. Differences of opinion can get quite loud.

Some non-Italian people might call all this yelling "abusive." They might say that it's not "healthy" or "mature" and that it's very "inappropriate." (The "abuse police" would be very busy there, wouldn't they??) 

But happy times in these homes also get very loud. And the loudness is just the way a lot of Italian families communicate - if you ask if these folks if they came from loving homes, lots of them will say that they did. And they will say that most of what was yelled during heated discussions was promptly forgotten. 

Yelling isn't always abusive, even though some people define it to be so. 

Therapist Linda MacDonald, in How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair, says that "Hurt partners are frequently traumatized to the point that they can hardly think straight. They usually behave in uncharacteristic and unattractive ways, making them rather unpleasant and unattractive to contend with. They may act desperate, irrational, angry, paranoid, and shaken. They sometimes cry easily or scream words you've never heard them use before." 

I think it's fair to assume that in the months after D-Day, most traumatized BS's will yell or use some language that you wouldn't use in church. Even those of us who "never" used that kind of language before. A few will hold it together and hold their tongues - I tip my hat to them, they are masters of restraint. 

I really have a problem with bringing up the word "abuse" in the context of BS's yelling and using unladylike language. It's a LOADED term, and it's a little too convenient: it immediately shifts blame away from the WS. I think a BS needs to be doing something really egregious before a WS wanting R dares to play that card, bearing in mind that a lot of people don't define abuse as narrowly as a lot of politically correct folks do these days. Call it yelling, call it swearing - but MOST of the time when WS's call it abusive, I smell blame-shifting.


----------



## bfree

Well put cpacan.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: A Thread For Wayward/Wandering/Disloyal Spouses*



soulpotato said:


> I don't think this is always the case. Sometimes the BS, even while wanting to recover the marriage, will feel that all the problems and work belong to the WS, regardless of the pre-affair issues that might have existed in the marriage/relationship. As we know, R is impossible if only one party is working on it.
> 
> 
> 
> Why does it automatically have to be that the WS isn't doing something? Affairs are deep and traumatic betrayals, so even if the WS does everything right in the effort to help the BS heal, it still may not be possible. Which doesn't mean that the BS or the WS didn't try or do everything that could be done. Both may remain in the marriage thinking that they can address the breakdowns and recover, even if they come to find later that they can't.


Well to be honest I've only come across one situation where the BS was still experiencing extreme anger and frustration and the WS"s effort was not lacking in some way. And the only reason that a divorce hadn't been filed yet in that case was the BS wouldn't do so on religious grounds. So I can only speak from experience when I say that I (almost) always see some need not being fulfilled as the cause for continued anger.


----------



## angelpixie

I don't think anyone is saying that in the time immediately following DDay that the BS is going to be sanguine and zen and mature, etc. The discussion came about due to a poster who said that 5 months on, the BS still lets fly in ways that are meant to humiliate and hurt -- i.e., are abusive. As I mentioned before -- what's the motive? If the motive is to simply to express someone's hurt and anger, then it's expression. If it's a way to inflict hurt and humiliation on someone who hurt you? Who is going to say that's right? Escalating hurt and anger and shame in a situation where there is already plenty of all of it simply will not help lead to R. If that's what the partners want, then yes, _*both partners*_ need to do their utmost to 'behave,' and stop looking for justifications for behaviors that wouldn't be seen positively in other circumstances. If the BS treated his/her child this way, would everyone here say it was OK?

And I'll say it one more time to respond to cpacan and hopefulgirl -- I'm not talking about swearing, or yelling. It's motive. Anyone who's been emotionally or verbally abused knows that it can be done in a quiet voice with not a swear word uttered. I'm talking about motive -- why is the person swearing, yelling, etc.? To express? Or to inflict pain? Are you saying that revenge is OK? It's OK to hurt the person who hurt the BS? And how does this help R?


----------



## cpacan

angelpixie said:


> ... If the BS treated his/her child this way, would everyone here say it was OK?
> 
> And I'll say it one more time to respond to cpacan and hopefulgirl -- I'm not talking about swearing, or yelling. It's motive. Anyone who's been emotionally or verbally abused knows that it can be done in a quiet voice with not a swear word uttered. I'm talking about motive -- why is the person swearing, yelling, etc.? To express? Or to inflict pain? Are you saying that revenge is OK? It's OK to hurt the person who hurt the BS? And how does this help R?


If my post came across as "revenge is OK", it seems I haven't expressed myself in a clear and precise manner.

A WS inflicts the worst possible emotional pain in her spouse (subjective I know), and what you usually see around here in the case of R is that BS needs to accept the humanity of the WS, the flaws, errors and poor judgement - simply because they're human. And because they are human, they can also choose to correct their errors and rebuild the marriage - even when the affair (and emotional abuse) lasted years.

Above you have a WS who asks if he really has to accept "abuse" for as long as five months past D-day (that's 5 months!) - why can't/won't you show his BS the same grace and understanding that any remorsefull WS asking for R is pleading and hoping for?

I just find it odd, but if you all just find this plain unreasonable I won't beat that dead horse anymore.
:scratchhead:


----------



## clipclop2

I am definitely of the belief that marriage counseling too soon after any sort of betrayal is likely to result in disaster. If the betrayed spouse walks into a marriage counseling session and hears a bunch of excuses or self defense or anger or blame I'm not getting the Eros thing. Did you follow the links? 

I know people do this kind of thing but it seems to me it wouldn't be about kink since they are paid to do what someone else wants to do. It can be a desire to be desired. It could be for money. I guess I don't get why should middle class woman would risk everything for something that is degrading no matter how you dress it up with terms like "high class" and "escort". The proper term is prostitute. The woman is no better than the woman who accepts$20 for a back-alley BJ. Men and women who buy into the idea that it is different are fooling themselves. 

So I am not convinced this fellows wife had gone that route. She is not being a nice person in response to being caught but that isn't unusual. Even people who end up feeling very remorseful after a period often respond with blame and anger say first. Being defensive when you are caught isn't surprising. They live in fear of getting caught while at the same time feeling so superior to the BS that they feel getting caught is unlikely. 

Anyway, I think all of the guns should be removed from the house until the matter is either resolved or the divorce is final. There is no reason to take risks. There is a cold involved and if mum is indeed into some bad stuff or her BF is so lowlife scum dad has to make sure there is no way he could end up on the wrong side of an argument or accusation. It isn't worth it. 

If THE OP doesn't know how to rip through the drive perhaps he has a trusted friend who can figure it out. He can also send the drive to a company that does that kind of work. He should take an image before sending the drive out. A backup won't be sufficient. 

If she is into hooking that she left links there suggests she doesn't think to cover up well so it probably won't be tough to put together a picture of what was going on. 
its going to hurt their effort to move forward. The wayward must go into therapy first. They must get their head on straight and realize the truth depth of what they did and I understand why they did it and be ready to own up without defensiveness. They must be ready to listen and to accept their lumps and to do all the hard work necessary to help their spouse heal. 

If the wayward isn't prepared to do that from the get go, isn't honestly willing to look at themselves and then *share* with their spouse with they are learning and then demonstrate with actions that they're willing to do the work, I think a betrayed spouse walking into therapy is going to get another dagger in the heart.
.
I don't think most waywards comprehend the amount of effort and honesty it takes to even come close to making up for what they did. They are still too selfish to see another person. It is still all about them. 

The word mistake really sticks in my craw. .
.
All that said it wouldn't hurt for the betrayed to go into therapy herself to decide if she really wants to remain married to this man. Nobody would blame her if she reached the conclusion that she just can't forgive. She may want to with all of her heart and soul but simply be unable to. As we all know it's very difficult to let go of a relationship even when it has reached its conclusion. And in the case of infidelity it can be even harder. Feeling hurt and rejected can make someone want to have the other person repair the damage they caused to THE BS's self esteem. They can't seem to leave without that even when they noe hate the betrayer. They are trapped in a nightmare and feel helpless to get back what was stolen from them. 

While there are some people who knoe themselves well enough to enforce the boundary that cheating is a deal breaker more people tend to fall into the bargaining stage of grief . So they waffle between optimism and despair. 

Despair is the right word. It is a deep, deep sorrow. 

I don't look at betrayal like this as a death. I see it as an assault. An assault by a person who was supposed to love AND PROTECT them. It has the same effect as child abuse. People tend to internalize it and feel that in some way it is their fault even though they know it isn't true. But it isn't like they can control their thinking because their need to feel safe and whole again is so great. They are an emotional mess and they feel crazy. 

Can a wayward ever really understand what that feels like? Doubtful. They must take the who's of their innocent spouse and believe what they are hearing. 

But that is often too painful for the wayward. If they manage a moment of empathy it is so painful that they want to run away (again) and end up causing more damage by trying to avoid those feelings. 

If they could be brave enough to accept onto themselves what they thrust onto the innocent person they thrust this nightmare upon they might be able to truly recover the marriage. But it is to damn hard for most people. And I think most waywards are less equipped in the first place or they wouldn't have cheated in the first place. 
.
I don't know what kind of friends she has and who she can talk to about this sort of thing. There a lot of people who give terrible advice. And even if she found individual counselor there's no guarantee that the first second or third one will even be any good. No offense to Masters of Social Work what I found the vast majority of them make very poor counselors .
.
She has to be ready and she isn't for reasons we really don't understand. I think her coming here would do their marriage. a lot more good than him being here asking when the hell is she going to get over this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

angelpixie said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that in the time immediately following DDay that the BS is going to be sanguine and zen and mature, etc. The discussion came about due to a poster who said that 5 months on, the BS still lets fly in ways that are meant to humiliate and hurt -- i.e., are abusive. As I mentioned before -- what's the motive? If the motive is to simply to express someone's hurt and anger, then it's expression. If it's a way to inflict hurt and humiliation on someone who hurt you? Who is going to say that's right? Escalating hurt and anger and shame in a situation where there is already plenty of all of it simply will not help lead to R. If that's what the partners want, then yes, _*both partners*_ need to do their utmost to 'behave,' and stop looking for justifications for behaviors that wouldn't be seen positively in other circumstances. If the BS treated his/her child this way, would everyone here say it was OK?
> 
> And I'll say it one more time to respond to cpacan and hopefulgirl -- I'm not talking about swearing, or yelling. It's motive. Anyone who's been emotionally or verbally abused knows that it can be done in a quiet voice with not a swear word uttered. I'm talking about motive -- why is the person swearing, yelling, etc.? To express? Or to inflict pain? Are you saying that revenge is OK? It's OK to hurt the person who hurt the BS? And how does this help R?


But 5 months is literally nothing in the grand scheme of things. Heck it takes a few months just for the shock to wear off. And that 2-5 year recovery period is absolutely real. So when taken in context 5 months is only...what 12% of the way through? So if a BS is still angry and shouts, swears and hurls insults then I don't see that as being that unusual.

As for intent to inflict pain? I'm just going to say it. I don't think there is a BS that does not have thoughts of hurting the WS at some point or another. I don't see how you could possibly determine what the intent is of a BS when they are feeling the anguish of betrayal. There is also such a thing as repressing your feelings. If the BS chokes down too much of their anger it will manifest itself further on down the road of reconciliation. We have seen that happen here where the BS was trying to be understanding of the feelings of their spouse and tried to bury their feelings only to see R fall apart months or even years later. I go back to my original comment. If the WS is doing all they can to rebuild trust and help heal the BS I don't see this type of situation developing.


----------



## angelpixie

I totally agree about IC for both. The WS needs to face the fact that s/he put the marriage and spouse second to whatever it was that made it OK in her/his mind to cheat. That, ultimately, it was selfishness to a terrible degree. Before any cheating happens, the WS owes it to the BS to communicate that something is lacking, to work on it, or even that s/he just doesn't want to anymore. But at least honor the vows enough to end one relationship before starting another one. Don't use the BS to fill some needs and an affair partner for others. Most people, if asked, will tell you they don't think it's OK to cheat on a partner. Yet many people do. And many never actually face that disconnect in themselves and deal with how they sold out their own values when the opportunity presented itself. 

And the BS has a lot to deal with as well. Can s/he really forgive? Should they? Looking at the relationship before the A, is there enough there to want to R? Does the BS have anything to answer for? 

MC is not really there to handle these kinds of introspective issues for each spouse. And unfortunately, as we've all seen here on TAM, not all MC's are created equal. Some don't take affairs seriously. Some have an agenda of being pro-marriage no matter what, or pro-divorce no matter what.


----------



## angelpixie

I agree that it's bad to repress feelings, and that's never been what I've suggested. It's very clear in my posts that I encourage the BS to express all of the feelings s/he has. I say again, I am myself a betrayed spouse. 

I am not talking about understanding the WS to the detriment of the BS' healing. Not at all. What I am talking about is an attitude that I'm picking up on here that says that the BS can do whatever s/he wants, say whatever s/he wants, for as long as s/he wants, no matter if pain and/or humiliation are inflicted, because s/he was cheated on. That, I don't agree with. 

It is not holding the WS responsible. It's not helping to heal the relationship. It's not even helping the BS to heal, as that type of vengeful anger prevents emotional healing and can do physical damage. It is prolonging the pain. It doesn't undo the betrayal. Nothing can. 

If there's no desire to heal the relationship, and the future relationship between the WS and BS doesn't matter (i.e., there are no kids to co-parent after a D), then by all means, have at it. But I don't think it's going to be as satisfying as it's portrayed by some folks here.


----------



## bfree

angelpixie said:


> I agree that it's bad to repress feelings, and that's never been what I've suggested. It's very clear in my posts that I encourage the BS to express all of the feelings s/he has. I say again, I am myself a betrayed spouse.
> 
> I am not talking about understanding the WS to the detriment of the BS' healing. Not at all. What I am talking about is an attitude that I'm picking up on here that says that the BS can do whatever s/he wants, say whatever s/he wants, for as long as s/he wants, no matter if pain and/or humiliation are inflicted, because s/he was cheated on. That, I don't agree with.
> 
> It is not holding the WS responsible. It's not helping to heal the relationship. It's not even helping the BS to heal, as that type of vengeful anger prevents emotional healing and can do physical damage. It is prolonging the pain. It doesn't undo the betrayal. Nothing can.
> 
> If there's no desire to heal the relationship, and the future relationship between the WS and BS doesn't matter (i.e., there are no kids to co-parent after a D), then by all means, have at it. But I don't think it's going to be as satisfying as it's portrayed by some folks here.


I think in a roundabout way we are actually saying the same things. You are saying that the BS doesn't have a right to intentionally inflict harm on the WS and does not have carte blanche to cause pain. I am saying that pain will inevitably be inflicted regardless just because of the nature of the situation but if the WS is doing all that he/she can to atone the BS won't want to inflict pain and any anger that comes out is actually necessary for the healing process. My problem comes from a WS saying that they don't feel its fair for the BS to unnecessarily yell or hurl too many insults. In that case I would ask what is unnecessary and what is too many or too much? Its a little too easy to claim that the BS has to maintain their composure when it is the WS that created the situation in the first place. It smells too much like an attempt at rugsweeping to me. I would suggest to the original poster that if they feel that they are being abused, end the relationship and put you both out of your misery. But I would encourage them first to examine what they have done and not done to try to atone for their terrible destructive choice and to really see if their attempts at healing were adequate.


----------



## clipclop2

I think a little revenge is necessary. I think I think it is unfair to expect the betrayed House to always walk the high road and to basically all well the way word to have inflicted such terrible pain on them and get away with it .
.
If it lasts forever then of course it makes sense for the marriage to end by thewayward. But if they can't do it without accepting the fact that they hurt their spouse so deeply that the spouse could not recover then they would just be inflicting you more pain on the betrayed. .
..
I wonder if the people who are calling abuse would respond perfectly if they were on the receiving end. It's extremely easy to point out what ideally would be best and how people should act at all times. But it's a whole different ballgame when you're the one who is hurt by the person who was supposed to love and protect them
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## angelpixie

Just to reiterate, I *was* on the receiving end. I don't expect the BS to always walk the high road. There's no 'always' or 'never' in what I've been saying. Please go back and read my posts. I have said nothing denying BS' feelings of anger, rage, hurt, betrayal or anything else, or his/her right to express those feelings to the WS. 

I do not agree with the statement that a BS will not want to intentionally cause pain if the WS is doing everything necessary. Why? Because being betrayed does not make a BS a saint. BS' are not perfect just because they've been cheated on. There are people in this world with very little capacity for forgiveness or understanding and a very large capacity for vengeance. People for whom betrayal or humiliation is an unforgivable sin. For them, yes, they should just walk away from the WS, because chances are the WS will never be able to make it up to them to their satisfaction.

And again, I *was* on the receiving end. I didn't react perfectly by any means, but I did not ever call my Ex names for cheating on me. I did not want to intentionally hurt him. That's not the kind of person I am. Even though he didn't ever admit or take responsibility for any of his choices. Doing those things would not have given me what I really wanted: his acknowledgement, remorse or regret. 

Having witnessed abuse between my parents, and having been abused myself, that's just not the way I am. I have often held things in too long, but it still didn't come out through name calling and words meant to humiliate or cause pain. 

In the DBT group I was in for many months, we didn't label behaviors as necessarily 'right' or 'wrong,' but rather as 'effective' and 'ineffective.' That's the way I look at what's being spoken about here. How effective is name-calling, insults, humiliation tactics, etc., in getting a desired result, whether that's R or just a personal healing?

There is a time when the discovery has just been made, and when the trickle-truth is happening when emotions will undoubtedly run high. And things will be said that one or both parties will later regret. To be sure. But healing will simply not take place if one or both parties are still thinking it's OK to *purposely inflict pain* on the other person.


----------



## soulpotato

Cpacan, I figure it wasn't mentioned about the BS deserving slack for some slips and aggressive behavior (especially at the beginning) because they were on the receiving end of the betrayal. I think it's more understood and taken for granted that there is probably going to be a big initial reaction from the BS, and likely not too calm or restrained.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

These past few pages I've just read all have good points. Calvin and I have been through all of this and that is why it is called reconciliation. I mean, the BS needs to be honest and tell the WS how bad they hurt them. Yes the BS wants the WS to feel that pain. If the BS and WS can continue to speak open and honest about their feelings, it can work. I am not saying a WS should be punished daily, because if that is the case then it would land up a unhappy marriage. Also, if the WS doesn't want to hear from the BS how hurt they are or as they say "have it always thrown in their face". It will not work either. That to me would be rugsweeping. The WS needs to be patient with the BS and allow them to get their angry feelings out. To me that is love. Without wanting to hear it, or to just throw your hands up or to continue to avoid the conversation of the betrayal is not love. It takes a lot of patience and understanding. The WS needs to be grateful for the chance to get that last chance to R. Hope that made sense. I'm getting sleepy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantSitStill

I also wanna say...at around 6 months, calvin was at his highest point of anger...it's a stage of what the BS goes through...the crappy thing is...that anger comes and goes for; about another year.. way up and feeling positive to three days later saying things that were hard to hear like "We don't belong together, I can never forgive you". Also many things that shocked me. But he needed to get all that out. It is hard but you must remember the hell you put your BS through. Hang in there and show your determination even when they are ready to call it quits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soulpotato

Also, BSs sometimes go through the stages differently. GF has never said we don't belong together or that she can't forgive me, but more like, "I need to make sure you're safe for me - I can't be with you unless things are different." Her feelings of love are slowly coming back. I don't think that she has had the kind of anger stage I see described here. I'd say we talk about the EAs at least a few times a week.


----------



## vellocet

cpacan said:


> There is one thing about this discussion about abuse that I don't quite understand, and no one tried to answer the question before, so I'll ask it again.
> 
> Why do you all take for granted that the BS will act so much more mature and healthy than her/his WS - especially upon a major betrayal like infidelity?


Very good question. Finding out one has been cheated on can cause some otherwise reasonable and calm people to react unreasonable(if there is such a thing after dday) and with a lot of anger they otherwise would not usually display.

I think a WS needs to understand, they just abused their BS pretty good and I think a lot of BS are simply going to blow up and go crazy for a short period of time. I couldn't imagine being a WS, let alone if I were that I would expect my BS to not go crazy over what I had done to them.


----------



## lookingforsupport

Thanks to everyone who posted here in response to my bump post. Sorry it's taken a while for me to post again, but I imagine I'm like many WS in that I have very little time that feels truly my own these days. If my W is around, I desperately want to be pleasing her or helping out in some way. I go to bed with her at the same time, even when she is really angry with me or has been sending invective my way. 

And I take the point of all of you who insist that I be patient and she be allowed to do and say whatever she feels. My bigger concern is that she will change who she is as a result of letting her anger run wild, and that we'll neither save the marriage nor ourselves. I desperately want us to stay together, but I don't think that she wants to be an angry person with me, any more than I want to be a disgusting pos with her. 

Thanks so much for the great discussion, it is hard (painful) to read, but really helpful. I also appreciate those who are looking out for signs of abuse. I can take it for the time being, but I agree that I need to know where the line should be drawn if the time comes.

And I'm going to apologize every day. that's good advice.


----------



## bfree

*Re: Re: A Thread For Wayward/Wandering/Disloyal Spouses*



lookingforsupport said:


> Thanks to everyone who posted here in response to my bump post. Sorry it's taken a while for me to post again, but I imagine I'm like many WS in that I have very little time that feels truly my own these days. If my W is around, I desperately want to be pleasing her or helping out in some way. I go to bed with her at the same time, even when she is really angry with me or has been sending invective my way.
> 
> And I take the point of all of you who insist that I be patient and she be allowed to do and say whatever she feels. My bigger concern is that she will change who she is as a result of letting her anger run wild, and that we'll neither save the marriage nor ourselves. I desperately want us to stay together, but I don't think that she wants to be an angry person with me, any more than I want to be a disgusting pos with her.
> 
> Thanks so much for the great discussion, it is hard (painful) to read, but really helpful. I also appreciate those who are looking out for signs of abuse. I can take it for the time being, but I agree that I need to know where the line should be drawn if the time comes.
> 
> And I'm going to apologize every day. that's good advice.


It is right for you to be concerned that her anger doesn't consume her. But what you need to understand is that she is already changed by what had happened. Infidelity changes you whether your are the BS or the WS. Sometimes those changes are unfortunate but sometimes they are beneficial and result in a stronger more introspective person. But the changes are always difficult and it takes time to adjust to the new reality. Give her time to adjust and work through her feelings. And just as important give yourself time to accept and adjust to the new person she must become.


----------



## sammy7111

it is amazing how ws spouse thanks they should know how a bs spouses feels you have know idea there pain lookingforsupport remember these all stared because you cheated you planted the seed in her mind all you can do is hope for the best


----------



## lookingforsupport

sammy7111 said:


> it is amazing how ws spouse thanks they should know how a bs spouses feels you have know idea there pain lookingforsupport remember these all stared because you cheated you planted the seed in her mind all you can do is hope for the best


I see a lot of messages like this on these boards, and I have to say I think it is sort of ridiculous. Regardless of what your level of anger might be, there are some responses and behaviors that are simply out of line. My bs sometimes wants to berate me in front of the kids, even now, 1 year after dday. I don't accept that and won't participate. It infuriates her, but she has a responsibility to control her anger. My bs sometimes wants to send me angry texts while I'm at work. I ignore 90% of them, because how can they possibly help anything? Me getting fired by spending all day with her seems like making a bad situation worse. Anger is the responsibility of the angry person. Feelings are feelings, they aren't facts. If you can't control your anger over what your ws did and won't take the time to try, I think there is a limit on what they can or should do to accommodate that. At some point, being nasty to someone (who is essentially defenseless) becomes worse than the infidelity. Our marriage vows had a lot of other promises in there. 

For the other ws out there, I keep a very simple calendar to track bad days vs good ones, and my only goal is that each month the fraction of bad days goes down. One year out, 80% of days are good days (where the overall feeling is one of love and no angry/extreme language is used). That's real improvement since November when I wrote-it was about 50% then.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

lookingforsupport said:


> I see a lot of messages like this on these boards, and I have to say I think it is sort of ridiculous. Regardless of what your level of anger might be, there are some responses and behaviors that are simply out of line. My bs sometimes wants to berate me in front of the kids, even now, 1 year after dday. I don't accept that and won't participate. It infuriates her, but she has a responsibility to control her anger. My bs sometimes wants to send me angry texts while I'm at work. I ignore 90% of them, because how can they possibly help anything? Me getting fired by spending all day with her seems like making a bad situation worse. Anger is the responsibility of the angry person. Feelings are feelings, they aren't facts. If you can't control your anger over what your ws did and won't take the time to try, I think there is a limit on what they can or should do to accommodate that. At some point,* being nasty to someone* (who is essentially defenseless)* becomes worse than the infidelity*. Our marriage vows had a lot of other promises in there.
> 
> For the other ws out there, I keep a very simple calendar to track bad days vs good ones, and my only goal is that each month the fraction of bad days goes down. One year out, 80% of days are good days (where the overall feeling is one of love and no angry/extreme language is used). That's real improvement since November when I wrote-it was about 50% then.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm one year after dday, and very angry still. I don't berate my wife in front of anyone, but she can see that I'm upset. 

If you're saying things to your wife like "our marriage vows had a lot of other promises in there", I'm guessing that's not giving her comfort. She probably doesn't want to hear you talk about promises, or vows at all.. 

It sounds like she's trying to punish you still, like perhaps she doesn't feel like you've suffered enough real consequences for the betrayal. Like did you split, spend time away from the wife and family to find out what life would be like without the comforts of family? Did you have to delete your Facebook and quit your job? 

Those times when things are going good, she's not thinking about being betrayed.. on those days that she's angry, she's not seeing you as someone that loves her, wants to protect her and wants to fix your marriage. She sees you as someone she can't trust, someone that will say the right things, but might not always be sincere. Someone that if given the opportunity, might not be honest if it suits their agenda. That frightens the hell out of her. In those times, try to convince her that you're there for her, not that you're worried about you. 

If she berates you in front of the kids, ask that she not use them to punish you. It's not fair to them, and you know that she doesn't want to hurt them, she just wants to hurt you.

Tell her you're sorry she's angry, and you're sorry that she has to be angry, and that you're sorry you did anything to make her angry, and that you're sorry that she has to have those feelings.. Thank her for letting you still be in her life.. Feed her positives.. tell her she's wonderful for even considering staying with you, that she's a beautiful person... etc.. etc..

The last thing she needs you to do at that point is shut her down.. That's probably what you did when you cheated, and it validates what she's feeling at that point. That you're cold and selfish. 

Saying that being nasty to someone can be worse than infidelity shows me that you're probably not doing and saying the right things. I also hope you didn't convey this thought to your wife. If your'e nasty to someone's face, they have the option to give you the finger and walk out. If you're nasty behind someone's back, they have no idea that you're being nasty, and don't have the option to give you the finger and walk out. It's not even close. As a BS, you want to feel that your WS 'gets it'.. a comment like this makes me wonder if you just have no clue...


----------



## Regret214

A very well written commentary russell28. Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lookingforsupport

russell28 said:


> I'm one year after dday, and very angry still. I don't berate my wife in front of anyone, but she can see that I'm upset.
> 
> If you're saying things to your wife like "our marriage vows had a lot of other promises in there", I'm guessing that's not giving her comfort. She probably doesn't want to hear you talk about promises, or vows at all..
> 
> It sounds like she's trying to punish you still, like perhaps she doesn't feel like you've suffered enough real consequences for the betrayal. Like did you split, spend time away from the wife and family to find out what life would be like without the comforts of family? Did you have to delete your Facebook and quit your job?
> 
> Those times when things are going good, she's not thinking about being betrayed.. on those days that she's angry, she's not seeing you as someone that loves her, wants to protect her and wants to fix your marriage. She sees you as someone she can't trust, someone that will say the right things, but might not always be sincere. Someone that if given the opportunity, might not be honest if it suits their agenda. That frightens the hell out of her. In those times, try to convince her that you're there for her, not that you're worried about you.
> 
> If she berates you in front of the kids, ask that she not use them to punish you. It's not fair to them, and you know that she doesn't want to hurt them, she just wants to hurt you.
> 
> Tell her you're sorry she's angry, and you're sorry that she has to be angry, and that you're sorry you did anything to make her angry, and that you're sorry that she has to have those feelings.. Thank her for letting you still be in her life.. Feed her positives.. tell her she's wonderful for even considering staying with you, that she's a beautiful person... etc.. etc..
> 
> The last thing she needs you to do at that point is shut her down.. That's probably what you did when you cheated, and it validates what she's feeling at that point. That you're cold and selfish.
> 
> Saying that being nasty to someone can be worse than infidelity shows me that you're probably not doing and saying the right things. I also hope you didn't convey this thought to your wife. If your'e nasty to someone's face, they have the option to give you the finger and walk out. If you're nasty behind someone's back, they have no idea that you're being nasty, and don't have the option to give you the finger and walk out. It's not even close. As a BS, you want to feel that your WS 'gets it'.. a comment like this makes me wonder if you just have no clue...


Right, I'm not making those comments to her face when she's angry. I apologize profusely and sincerely. I never moved out, never shirked with the kids, and the affair was over by my choice a year before she found out about it. 

I don't deny her right to be mad and express it, and I think that some of that is certainly necessary to getting past this time in our marriage, but I also think there is a point at which the bs has to take responsibility for their own response and behavior. Just as the ws can't say "you made me f*** someone else," because that's not grown up, neither can the bs say "you made me incapable of being civil to you." I think taking that position worsens things rather than heals them, and since it also tends to put the ws on constant eggshells it makes it less likely they will volunteer information next time they are feeling unhappy/lonely/bored since they'll assume your response will be to lose control. 

This isn't me refusing to take responsibility for what I did and how awful it was, this is me looking to find a path forward where I don't live in fear of being berated and treated like vermin over things I can't change. The door is open for her to leave the marriage if I've ruined it, but if we're going to stay together why live in a cauldron of rage half (or 20%) of the time?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

lookingforsupport said:


> Right, I'm not making those comments to her face when she's angry. I apologize profusely and sincerely. I never moved out, never shirked with the kids, and the affair was over by my choice a year before she found out about it.
> 
> I don't deny her right to be mad and express it, and I think that some of that is certainly necessary to getting past this time in our marriage, but I also think there is a point at which the bs has to take responsibility for their own response and behavior. Just as the ws can't say "you made me f*** someone else," because that's not grown up, neither can the bs say "you made me incapable of being civil to you." I think taking that position worsens things rather than heals them, and since it also tends to put the ws on constant eggshells it makes it less likely they will volunteer information next time they are feeling unhappy/lonely/bored since they'll assume your response will be to lose control.
> 
> This isn't me refusing to take responsibility for what I did and how awful it was, this is me looking to find a path forward where I don't live in fear of being berated and treated like vermin over things I can't change. The door is open for her to leave the marriage if I've ruined it, but if we're going to stay together why live in a cauldron of rage half (or 20%) of the time?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're trying to rush it... stop putting a time frame on it, she'll heal when she heals. You talk the talk, but you're not walking the walk. You say you're not making those comments to her face, but you're making them. So if that's how you feel, and you're just telling her sorry just to placate her, then she probably picks up on that.

It's too bad you didn't move out, and don't give yourself too much credit for the affair dying or you killing it or whatever happened.

It's noble of you to not deny her the right to get angry and express it. You think some of it is necessary, how much exactly? What do you recommend is a good amount for a BS to get over a betrayal? The experts say 2-5 years, whats good for you, six months? 1 year? 

You should have given that one some thought before having an affair.. unfortunately, you didn't give it too much thought, and now it's an inconvenience for you to allow her enough time to heal. It's messing with your plans for recovery. 

Here's the truth. That 80%? It's her detaching from you. It's her not feeling anything, just being numb. It's not "things are back to normal". You forfeited that right. It's her protecting herself from you and the risks of you hurting her again. The 20% is her realizing that she's with someone that doesn't get it, and wondering "why am I still with him, am I weak?, is it for the kids? money?"

That's the reality you created when you chose to have an affair. Now you can deal with it, in real time, or you can try to rush it and continue to push your wife away and in a month or year or so divorce, or live in a miserable marriage.

Stop trying to rush her healing.. let her heal at her own pace. Don't shut her down if you want her to be able to regain love, trust, respect, all the things that took a brutal hit when you cheated on her.


----------



## sammy7111

your not the one cheated on so how do you know how she feels she has ever right to be mad and upset to me it say a lot about her giving you a second chance.


----------



## Lovemytruck

russell28 said:


> Here's the truth. That 80%? It's her detaching from you. It's her not feeling anything, just being numb. It's not "things are back to normal". You forfeited that right. It's her protecting herself from you and the risks of you hurting her again. The 20% is her realizing that she's with someone that doesn't get it, and wondering "why am I still with him, am I weak?, is it for the kids? money?"


:iagree:

This is the reality for the betrayed.

Well said Russell. 

It is an important piece of the puzzle for the WS. It may be detachment and not necessarily a feeling of forgiveness she is experiencing. I went through a similar process in my 8 months following D-day. The healing is not always in the direction of wanting to continue in a marriage after betrayal. For me healing was a process to change my path. It takes time to make big decisions and come to terms with new consequences.


----------



## lookingforsupport

russell28 said:


> You're trying to rush it... stop putting a time frame on it, she'll heal when she heals. You talk the talk, but you're not walking the walk. You say you're not making those comments to her face, but you're making them. So if that's how you feel, and you're just telling her sorry just to placate her, then she probably picks up on that.
> 
> It's too bad you didn't move out, and don't give yourself too much credit for the affair dying or you killing it or whatever happened.
> 
> It's noble of you to not deny her the right to get angry and express it. You think some of it is necessary, how much exactly? What do you recommend is a good amount for a BS to get over a betrayal? The experts say 2-5 years, whats good for you, six months? 1 year?
> 
> You should have given that one some thought before having an affair.. unfortunately, you didn't give it too much thought, and now it's an inconvenience for you to allow her enough time to heal. It's messing with your plans for recovery.
> 
> Here's the truth. That 80%? It's her detaching from you. It's her not feeling anything, just being numb. It's not "things are back to normal". You forfeited that right. It's her protecting herself from you and the risks of you hurting her again. The 20% is her realizing that she's with someone that doesn't get it, and wondering "why am I still with him, am I weak?, is it for the kids? money?"
> 
> That's the reality you created when you chose to have an affair. Now you can deal with it, in real time, or you can try to rush it and continue to push your wife away and in a month or year or so divorce, or live in a miserable marriage.
> 
> Stop trying to rush her healing.. let her heal at her own pace. Don't shut her down if you want her to be able to regain love, trust, respect, all the things that took a brutal hit when you cheated on her.


I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but perhaps where we differ is on this notion of healing and what that is. What is being healed? Her? If so, how is flying into uncontrollable rages, then saying and doing things she ultimately is embarrassed about helping heal anything? It seems to me that it is mostly just introducing more dysfunction into the situation.

If what is being healed is our relationship, then (if you are right) 80% of the time spent distancing and 20% spent raging seems like a recipe for misery and failure, not healing. 

For some people an affair is a total deal-breaker, and if my wife had felt that way and ended things, of course I would understand. I was a wretch. But if we aren't divorcing, then I think we should be figuring out what went wrong and how to have the marriage we both want. It's just not enough to say, "you did this so any consequences are ultimately your responsibility." There's a human will and mind in the middle there, and it deserves respect (which also means it bears responsibility). 

Am I impatient? Well, nobody would want to live like this and everyone would want to arrive at a better place. I see progress, and that keeps me hopeful, but I also see a lot of BSs on this board who never let go of the pain and anger, and I think it just blocks them from any chance at happiness. And to the extent they stay with their spouse, they just build a new marriage based on resentment, which to me is disproportionate to the original harm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

lookingforsupport said:


> I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but perhaps where we differ is on this notion of healing and what that is. *What is being healed?* Her? If so, how is flying into uncontrollable rages, then saying and doing things she ultimately is embarrassed about helping heal anything? It seems to me that it is mostly just introducing more dysfunction into the situation.
> 
> If what is being healed is our relationship, then (if you are right) 80% of the time spent distancing and 20% spent raging seems like a recipe for misery and failure, not healing.
> 
> For some people an affair is a total deal-breaker, and if my wife had felt that way and ended things, of course I would understand. I was a wretch. But if we aren't divorcing, then I think we should be figuring out what went wrong and how to have the marriage we both want. It's just not enough to say, "you did this so any consequences are ultimately your responsibility." There's a human will and mind in the middle there, and it deserves respect (which also means it bears responsibility).
> 
> Am I impatient? Well, nobody would want to live like this and everyone would want to arrive at a better place. I see progress, and that keeps me hopeful, but I also see a lot of BSs on this board who never let go of the pain and anger, and I think it just blocks them from any chance at happiness. And to the extent they stay with their spouse, they just build a new marriage based on resentment, which to me is disproportionate to the original harm.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is being healed? Do you really want me to break that one down for you? Her? Are you serious? No, the cat.. focus on the cat and ignore your wife, she's just over reacting and now she's the bigger problem, because it's disproportionate to what you did.. after all, you did break it off early and said you were sorry.  That should be enough for her to rebuild her trust and faith and to be able to get right back to where she was mentally before you gave her an emotional trauma and shattered her world to bits. No problem. 

Should take a few weeks tops, that's what you figured when you cheated right? If she finds out, I'll say I'm sorry.. tell her about how I broke it off, and we'll be fine. I'll make some new promises, talk about marriage and vows.. make her feel that her being upset is much more horrible than me cheating and poof, back in control, because of respect.. that's a good word, respect, I'll use that one.. (sigh)

By her getting her anger out, and letting you know how she's feeling, she's not bottling it up inside and letting it eat away at her.

Hear this.

SHE CAN'T CONTROL IT

She doesn't choose to be hurt, choose to be angry, choose to be upset.. she doesn't want to hate you, she doesn't want to be angry with you, she doesn't want to hurt you.. she didn't ask for any of this. You dumped it on her. So yes, you did cause anything you get.. if she killed you and your lover, that would be on you. Your stupid choices. You risked those types of things when you chose to cheat. Stop trying to candy coat your affair and pretend now that your wife being hurt is the bigger problem in your relationship. 

Q: "She can't get over it fast enough"

A: Deal with it.


----------



## doubletrouble

lookingforsupport said:


> Right, I'm not making those comments to her face when she's angry. I apologize profusely and sincerely. I never moved out, never shirked with the kids, and the affair was over by my choice *a year before she found out about it*.
> 
> *I don't deny her right to be mad and express it*, and I think that some of that is certainly necessary to getting past this time in our marriage, but I also think there is a point at which the bs has to take responsibility for their own response and behavior. Just as the ws can't say "you made me f*** someone else," because that's not grown up, neither can the bs say "you made me incapable of being civil to you." I think taking that position worsens things rather than heals them, and since it also tends to put the ws on constant eggshells it makes it less likely they will volunteer information next time they are feeling unhappy/lonely/bored since they'll assume your response will be to lose control.
> 
> This isn't me refusing to take responsibility for what I did and how awful it was, this is me looking to find a path forward where I don't live in fear of being berated and treated like vermin over things I can't change. The door is open for her to leave the marriage if I've ruined it, but if we're going to stay together why live in a cauldron of rage half (or 20%) of the time?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





lookingforsupport said:


> I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but perhaps where we differ is on this notion of healing and what that is. What is being healed? Her? If so, how is flying into uncontrollable rages, then saying and doing things she ultimately is embarrassed about helping heal anything? It seems to me that it is mostly just introducing more dysfunction into the situation.
> 
> If what is being healed is our relationship, then (if you are right) 80% of the time spent distancing and 20% spent raging seems like a recipe for misery and failure, not healing.
> 
> For some people an affair is a total deal-breaker, and if my wife had felt that way and ended things, of course I would understand. I was a wretch. But if we aren't divorcing, then I think we should be figuring out what went wrong and how to have the marriage we both want. It's just not enough to say, "you did this so any consequences are ultimately your responsibility." There's a human will and mind in the middle there, and it deserves respect (which also means it bears responsibility).
> 
> Am I impatient? *Well, nobody would want to live like this *and everyone would want to arrive at a better place. I see progress, and that keeps me hopeful, but I also see a lot of BSs on this board who never let go of the pain and anger, and I think it just blocks them from any chance at happiness. And to the extent they stay with their spouse, they just build a new marriage based on resentment, *which to me is disproportionate to the original harm.*_Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, you're not getting it. 

You had an affair, then kept it secret for a year afterwards? I don't know your whole story but I do know that the keeping of a secret adds to the pain. Only you and your OW haev these little secrets you get to keep, just the two of you in your own tidy little affair world. it's like stealing a kid's Halloween candy then going in the tree house with your fvck buddy and eating it. Your own little secret. 

Except you're married. Someone chose you to be their one and only, for the rest of her life. And you said you chose her. She set her world up based on this. 

You're damned right nobody would want to live like that. Especially your wife, buddy. She didn't bring this on. If you have never been in love and been betrayed, then you can only imagine the pain it brings. It destroys all those dreams and replaces them with battlefield smoke and bomb craters. It changes the landscape of your whole life. It's a number of different-sized knives run through your chest. 

So what would you consider "proportionate" to the amount of harm done by destroying someone's life's dreams?


----------



## lookingforsupport

russell28 said:


> .. if she killed you and your lover, that would be on you.


I think that about sums up your (and the many here who agree with you) position. I and all other WS did something bad, therefore all responses are justified and expected. My only recourse is to accept them as my fault and relieve my spouse of any responsibility for her actions for as long as...well, forever I guess.

I reject that premise. But I can see why, if you start there, I seem like a real jerk for my concerns about how her behavior is perhaps making it harder for us to get to a better place, and why my questions about how to manage it better seem so selfish. I should be grateful she hasn't killed me in a fit of rage, and otherwise accept all other punishment since she can't control it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lookingforsupport

doubletrouble said:


> Wow, you're not getting it.
> 
> You had an affair, then kept it secret for a year afterwards? I don't know your whole story but I do know that the keeping of a secret adds to the pain. Only you and your OW haev these little secrets you get to keep, just the two of you in your own tidy little affair world. it's like stealing a kid's Halloween candy then going in the tree house with your fvck buddy and eating it. Your own little secret.
> 
> ...
> 
> So what would you consider "proportionate" to the amount of harm done by destroying someone's life's dreams?



I agree, it was wrong to have the affair, and wrong to keep it a secret. Like many ws, I regretted what I had done and thought it would only make things much worse if I needlessly confessed it. It wasn't a secret I savored, but one that made me feel awful about myself, and I didn't have the courage to face up to what I had done.

But the answer to your question is tough for me. I can honestly say that I'd prefer she had a revenge affair to the verbal tirades that come out of nowhere, can't be addressed at all, last for hours or days, and never prompt an apology or even a walk back. I think there are a lot of ways we can hurt our spouses, and why stay together for that? 

Maybe there is no appropriate proportionate response-that's probably because marriages aren't based on an eye for an eye. So then the question is just: what does the bs want now? And can the ws give that to them? And if they can, how? What steps can be taken? I would never back away from that conversation, and have done everything she's asked of me since dday (open phone email, etc). I just know that I am more than human pond scum, and I worry that the longer she sees me that way, the harder it will be to see me as anything else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

lookingforsupport said:


> I think that about sums up your (and the many here who agree with you) position. I and all other WS did something bad, therefore all responses are justified and expected. My only recourse is to accept them as my fault and relieve my spouse of any responsibility for her actions for as long as...well, forever I guess.
> 
> I reject that premise. But I can see why, if you start there, I seem like a real jerk for my concerns about how her behavior is perhaps making it harder for us to get to a better place, and why my questions about how to manage it better seem so selfish. I should be grateful she hasn't killed me in a fit of rage, and otherwise accept all other punishment since she can't control it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your denial is what's making it harder for you to get to a better place. 

..and yes, you should be thankful she didn't kill you in a fit of rage. That actually happens, it's not as absurd a scenario as you seem to think it is. Also be thankful your lover didn't kill her, you, your bunny etc... 

You're telling us your wife has a responsibility to control her anger, yet you didn't have the responsibility to control yourself when you cheated.

You're telling us that you deserve respect, do you think your wife feels like you respected her when you cheated?

So why does she have to be responsible and show respect, but you don't have to? Why the double standard? Are you showing respect? How, by trying to rugsweep your affair and trying to paint your betrayed spouse as a villain for not wanting to help you sweep it under the rug? Because her pain is inconveniencing you? 

You don't have to accept any of this, *you can leave*. Most WS do.. most can't handle the truth. You're putting on a good show... but I'm not sure you're getting it. If you love your wife, and you're staying because of that. Stop telling her how and when she's allowed to feel pain and anger. Be there for her, don't pretend to be there for her then get disgusted because she's dragging you down with her drama and taking way too long to heal for your liking.

I agree she needs to stop talking about it in front of the kids.. that much we agree on. I think if you talk to her about it, instead of shutting her down eventually her tone will change. She won't feel so insulted by the vibe you're giving off. 

I'm not going to buy what you're selling about the BS being upset being the real problem here.. It seems the real issue is the WS is unremorseful, and just putting it on for the sake of getting back his old life. He really has no idea of the magnitude of the damage his infidelity has caused.


----------



## johnAdams

lookingforsupport said:


> So then the question is just: what does the bs want now? And can the ws give that to them? And if they can, how? What steps can be taken? I would never back away from that conversation, and have done everything she's asked of me since dday (open phone email, etc). I just know that I am more than human pond scum, and I worry that the longer she sees me that way, the harder it will be to see me as anything else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*what does the bs want now?* The BS wants true remorse. Something you seem to be lacking.
*
And can the ws give that to them?* Yes. I would start by reading Linda McDonald "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from your Affair".
*What steps can be taken?* Start by reading the above book and following the directions. It is a short how to book for the WS. 

From reading your posts, you have a long way to go. You do not appear to "get it" yet.


----------



## russell28

As for her berating you, don't let her do that.. tell her to talk to you in a civil manner.. If she doesn't do that, leave her, tell her you can't take the verbal abuse any longer...

..and don't blame her for the split up, blame yourself. Don't say "I tried, she didn't" Say "I f'd up my marriage by cheating and my wife never got over it, I should probably not have done that" and in your next relationship, keep your boundaries up.. respect yourself and your marriage.


----------



## russell28

lookingforsupport said:


> I think that about sums up your (and the many here who agree with you) position. I and all other WS did something bad, therefore all responses are justified and expected. My only recourse is to accept them as my fault and relieve my spouse of any responsibility for her actions for as long as...well, forever I guess.
> 
> I reject that premise. But I can see why, if you start there, I seem like a real jerk for my concerns about how her behavior is perhaps making it harder for us to get to a better place, and why my questions about how to manage it better seem so selfish. I should be grateful she hasn't killed me in a fit of rage, and otherwise accept all other punishment since she can't control it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Also, I never said that shooting you would be justified.. I just pointed out that when you do things, sometimes things happen.
When you chose to cheat, you opened yourself up to all sorts of bad things happening.. you could get an STD and your weewee can fall off.. Your kids can find out and lose respect for you.. Your wife might yell at you... 

This is why in life, we try to make good choices and not ones that put the people we love at risk or in harms way. If we do make bad choices, it's best to own up to them and not try to sugar coat them and pretend others reactions to our bad choices is the real problem.


----------



## wanttofixit

lookingforsupport said:


> I agree, it was wrong to have the affair, and wrong to keep it a secret. Like many ws, I regretted what I had done and thought it would only make things much worse if I needlessly confessed it. It wasn't a secret I savored, but one that made me feel awful about myself, and I didn't have the courage to face up to what I had done.
> 
> But the answer to your question is tough for me. I can honestly say that I'd prefer she had a revenge affair to the verbal tirades that come out of nowhere, can't be addressed at all, last for hours or days, and never prompt an apology or even a walk back. I think there are a lot of ways we can hurt our spouses, and why stay together for that?
> 
> Maybe there is no appropriate proportionate response-that's probably because marriages aren't based on an eye for an eye. So then the question is just: what does the bs want now? And can the ws give that to them? And if they can, how? What steps can be taken? I would never back away from that conversation, and have done everything she's asked of me since dday (open phone email, etc). I just know that I am more than human pond scum, and I worry that the longer she sees me that way, the harder it will be to see me as anything else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


our transgressions are pretty similar. i have to say it took a while for me to really process the enormity of what i'd done--i did a very good job of packaging the whole thing away in some room at the end of the hall in my mind, kept it separate from the 'real me' who of course was a stand-up guy, great husband and father.

i've definitely endured some 'irrational,' hope-eroding tantrums from my wife. the hardest part isn't taking the punishment, but feeling that there are moments where she's the one losing hope. in those times i try to just stay calm, listen to her, answer the questions i can, don't make up answers for the ones i can't, and toughest of all, resign myself to the fact that just maybe, it won't work out. it sounds like you are trying to do the right things--the next step is to keep doing them, while simultaneously relinquishing expectations that things will get better because of it. it's very difficult to wean one's self off the impulse to manipulate and improve the situation, and simply leave everything out on the table, and let the chips fall where they may. 

my guess is that if she's yelling and screaming, there's a part of her that cares. it sounds like she probably isn't in full control of her thought processes, several people have brought this up. she's not 'consistent,' but you can be. just plow forward with the new you, and cross your fingers. sound's like there is hope, just maybe not on the timetable of your current set of expectations.


----------



## Affaircare

I'm speaking as a former-Disloyal, and as someone who was Loyal in my first marriage when my exH left me and 2 young kids for another woman in another state. Yes on one hand I think lookingforsupport doesn't "get it" because he has never had his entire world shattered by this level of betrayal.

And yet to be entirely honest, I don't think many Loyal Spouses "get it" either for a long, long time. Namely, in the same way that an adult Disloyal is responsible for the choices they made--an adult Loyal is just as responsible for the choices they make. 

Raging at your spouse is a choice that can be controlled BEFORE adultery and that means it is a choice that can be controlled AFTER adultery. Raging at your spouse is a choice men are expected to control or be called abusive--and raging at your spouse is a choice women should be expected to be controlled just as equally or be just as equally abusive. 

What I see over and over is Loyal Spouses who say "I couldn't help it" or "I had to do it..." but if they heard that from their Disloyal about anything they see right through it! So as hard as it is to hear, yes, anger after an enormous betrayal is natural and normal and "to be expected" and yes the anger can rise up like a wave an hit a Loyal Spouse even years later and unexpectedly overwhelm them....

BUT

... go to any course on anger management, read any book on living with angry people and the truth is that anger is a feeling just like any other feeling. We are expected to control our emotions and it's no excuse to say "I just felt it! I had no choice!" ...and anger is the exact same thing. 

In real life, I think it is somewhat reasonable for a Loyal to still have anger even after a year, but I would think it would be diminishing if the two of them are working on themselves and their marriage together. In real life, I think in the same way that we expect the Disloyal to take 100% FULL RESPONSIBILITY for choosing to be unfaithful, the Loyal takes 100% FULL RESPONSIBILITY for how they choose to express their anger. 

At some point, in order for there to be a true reconciliation, the Loyal Spouse has to put down the weapon of "I get to rage at you whenever I want and always have the Ace in the Hole justification of your affair" and consciously stop hurting their spouse. If the Loyal Spouse chooses to keep that weapon and keeps using that weapon to hurt their spouse (and thus their marriage), then guess what? That is a CHOICE and it is not the choice of the Disloyal who came back to face the music from what they had done with the affair! The Disloyal does indeed need to hear their Loyal; does need to be patient; does need to be completely transparent and begin to demonstrate honest actions; does need to eat some crow (so to speak) for choosing infidelity. The Disloyal does not need to endlessly accept verbal, emotional, or mental abuse when the Loyal blameshifts their rage. 

See, the goal of reconciliation is not "Let's make the Disloyal PAY." If that's the goal, no payment will ever be enough. The goal of reconciliation is to see the rubble of what's left of the destroyed marriage, and to REBUILD something strong, honest, and true. You can not rebuild when one partner is tearing down and then blaming the other. 

I realize this is incredibly hard for about 99.99% of Loyal Spouses to hear, but this is my own humble opinion.


----------



## sammy7111

lookingforsupport I get the feeling your wanting to swipe this under the rug. its not that easy for her. if your truly sorry you would do everthing to ease her pain even if it means leasing to her.


----------



## russell28

wanttofixit said:


> our transgressions are pretty similar. i have to say it took a while for me to really process the enormity of what i'd done--i did a very good job of packaging the whole thing away in some room at the end of the hall in my mind, kept it separate from the 'real me' who of course was a stand-up guy, great husband and father.
> 
> i've definitely endured some 'irrational,' hope-eroding tantrums from my wife. the hardest part isn't taking the punishment, but feeling that there are moments where she's the one losing hope. in those times i try to just stay calm, listen to her, answer the questions i can, don't make up answers for the ones i can't, and toughest of all, resign myself to the fact that just maybe, it won't work out. it sounds like you are trying to do the right things--the next step is to keep doing them, while simultaneously relinquishing expectations that things will get better because of it. it's very difficult to wean one's self off the impulse to manipulate and improve the situation, and simply leave everything out on the table, and let the chips fall where they may.
> 
> my guess is that if she's yelling and screaming, there's a part of her that cares. it sounds like she probably isn't in full control of her thought processes, several people have brought this up. she's not 'consistent,' but you can be. just plow forward with the new you, and cross your fingers. sound's like there is hope, just maybe not on the timetable of your current set of expectations.


The thing about those hope eroding moments, at that moment, you're deep into depression or anger, so you do feel those things, but there are times when you also have hope and can feel the compassion and positives. It's a moment thing, so don't let it crush your hopes.

I don't think the yelling is helpful at all, and I'm not a fan of name calling... I can see where it can chase a WS away, but sometimes it's probably a test to see how much they can take or because the BS doesn't have the guts to leave, and is hoping they can chase the WS away. I tried not to hit below the belt with my wife, the bad names.. I never went there, but sometimes just telling someone how disappointed in them you are is crushing enough, they don't need the s or w words. Honesty hurts enough, you don't need to resort to yelling and name calling. I hope this guy's wife stops, especially in front of the kids.. that's not good.


----------



## sammy7111

affaircare that's way you can never truly r because the affair will always be there. you can learn to live with it and be happy but its always there and it will never go away. you will always think about the betrayal. I learn to live with it for 20 years but I will never trust her. because when your cheated own you learn that your truly own your own in this world. and there truth behind that is if we where truly over these we wouldn't all be here.


----------



## hawx20

lookingforsupport said:


> Am I impatient? Well, nobody would want to live like this and everyone would want to arrive at a better place.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was going to go more in depth with a response to you but why waste my time? You obviously wont get it. You totally and completely destroyed someone who loved you and trusted you more than anyone else. You destroyed their life and their world as they knew it and you have the audacity to complain that shes not healing fast enough for YOUR liking....Wow.


Now, I will answer your question I quoted with the same question. Who in the hell wants to live with dealing with their spouses infidelity? You want to know how long it will take? It will take as long as your spouse needs it to take. If you cant handle it, leave. Instead of feeling sorry for yourself, put that energy into making your spouse feel better. You made the bed, now lie in it.


----------



## Aerith

russell28 said:


> Your denial is what's making it harder for you to get to a better place.
> 
> ..and yes, you should be thankful she didn't kill you in a fit of rage. That actually happens, it's not as absurd a scenario as you seem to think it is. Also be thankful your lover didn't kill her, you, your bunny etc...


That's a bit of overstatement :sleeping:

I would say, it's pretty normal to loose control over emotions after DD (or any other big emotional shock).

The other thing however, when such way of communications is becoming normal in the relationship/marriage.

Angry outbursts are love busters for most people...


----------



## hawx20

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I had an affair 30 years ago, my husband chose to keep me as his wife...His pain is still there...it always will be....but we are in a good place. I have found...
> 
> The more remorseful I have become...the more my husband trusts me. The more he trusts me, the more he lets go, the more he lets go, the closer we become, the closer we become, the more he helps me do the work.
> 
> It takes remorse...forgiveness....time and love for healing to come.


:iagree: completely


----------



## Headspin

lookingforsupport said:


> I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but perhaps where we differ is on this notion of healing and what that is. What is being healed? Her? If so, how is flying into uncontrollable rages, then saying and doing things she ultimately is embarrassed about helping heal anything? It seems to me that it is mostly just introducing more dysfunction into the situation.
> 
> If what is being healed is our relationship, then (if you are right) 80% of the time spent distancing and 20% spent raging seems like a recipe for misery and failure, not healing.
> 
> For some people an affair is a total deal-breaker, and if my wife had felt that way and ended things, of course I would understand. I was a wretch. But if we aren't divorcing, then I think we should be figuring out what went wrong and how to have the marriage we both want. It's just not enough to say, "you did this so any consequences are ultimately your responsibility." There's a human will and mind in the middle there, and it deserves respect (which also means it bears responsibility).
> 
> Am I impatient? Well, nobody would want to live like this and everyone would want to arrive at a better place. I see progress, and that keeps me hopeful, but I also see a lot of BSs on this board who never let go of the pain and anger, and I think it just blocks them from any chance at happiness. And to the extent they stay with their spouse, they just build a new marriage based on resentment, *which to me is disproportionate to the original harm.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:scratchhead:

go away and live your life with somebody different or preferably alone because you are, with this attitude, wasting your and her time 

You're not "pond life" but you don't get this at all You are actually a lot closer to pond life than that adorable gorgeous trustable man she always thought she could rely on, who looked out for her back because that man you are not, never was _and never will be_ and she is the one struggling internally for being mentally 'duped' by you for years as she comes to realize the awful truth about ....... - YOU 

And the misery and the "uncontrollable rages" are inside *forever* just that a bs has to learnt to control that but I can tell as a bs it *never ever* leaves you nomatter how much youe try to ease the intensity on your wayward wife / husband as you try desperately to reconcile 
knowing really in your heart you should be away and gone 

And i can tell you it is healthy to rage to let loose at the object who has just re written your whole existence *YES YOUR WHOLE EXISTENCE* (In case you still don't get it) 

Jesus wept


----------



## hawx20

I am always at a complete loss when someone stabs their spouse in the back, spits in their face, actively ruins their life, destroys their marriage, destroys their confidence, and blows up life as they know it....and then expects them to just get over it.


----------



## russell28

Aerith said:


> That's a bit of overstatement :sleeping:
> 
> I would say, it's pretty normal to loose control over emotions after DD (or any other big emotional shock).
> 
> The other thing however, when such way of communications is becoming normal in the relationship/marriage.
> 
> Angry outbursts are love busters for most people...



You know what else is a love buster, dropping your pants for someone you're not married to, and lying to your spouse about it.

As for the dangers and risks of cheating, being an overstatement.. just read the news once in awhile, you'll find it's not all that uncommon for people to lash out and harm each other over affairs. People shoot and stab each other over it. It's a reality. It's not just in movies.


----------



## MSP

Affaircare said:


> In this thread, we all understand that we can not "MAKE" people speak respectfully, but we do *ask* that folks who post on this thread:
> 
> 1. Give WS/DS's this one thread to post what they honestly think and feel without being lambasted. Lambasted=breaking TAM terms of service by calling names or being verbally abusive or being like a troll and flaming....
> 
> Let's TRY to keep this thread...


----------



## Headspin

Mrs. John Adams said:


> ...
> This person...does not feel his wife's pain yet...and unfortunately some never do.


Therein lies the huge risk taken by a betrayed spouse - We expect our waywards to fully understand the depth of our pain and their betrayal and we give them time to do it .......of course not knowing that most will never actually even get past the first hurdle and have no intention of wising up!

It's so rare that a wayward actually understands the gift that is a full and proper reconciliation 

Can count them on one hand that I've seen on here in a years


----------



## doubletrouble

Affaircare said:


> I'm speaking as a former-Disloyal, and as someone who was Loyal in my first marriage when my exH left me and 2 young kids for another woman in another state. Yes on one hand I think lookingforsupport doesn't "get it" because he has never had his entire world shattered by this level of betrayal.
> 
> And yet to be entirely honest, I don't think many Loyal Spouses "get it" either for a long, long time. Namely, in the same way that an adult Disloyal is responsible for the choices they made--an adult Loyal is just as responsible for the choices they make.
> 
> Raging at your spouse is a choice that can be controlled BEFORE adultery and that means it is a choice that can be controlled AFTER adultery. Raging at your spouse is a choice men are expected to control or be called abusive--and raging at your spouse is a choice women should be expected to be controlled just as equally or be just as equally abusive.
> 
> What I see over and over is Loyal Spouses who say "I couldn't help it" or "I had to do it..." but if they heard that from their Disloyal about anything they see right through it! So as hard as it is to hear, yes, anger after an enormous betrayal is natural and normal and "to be expected" and yes the anger can rise up like a wave an hit a Loyal Spouse even years later and unexpectedly overwhelm them....
> 
> BUT
> 
> ... go to any course on anger management, read any book on living with angry people and the truth is that anger is a feeling just like any other feeling. We are expected to control our emotions and it's no excuse to say "I just felt it! I had no choice!" ...and anger is the exact same thing.
> 
> In real life, I think it is somewhat reasonable for a Loyal to still have anger even after a year, but I would think it would be diminishing if the two of them are working on themselves and their marriage together. In real life, I think in the same way that we expect the Disloyal to take 100% FULL RESPONSIBILITY for choosing to be unfaithful, the Loyal takes 100% FULL RESPONSIBILITY for how they choose to express their anger.
> 
> At some point, in order for there to be a true reconciliation, the Loyal Spouse has to put down the weapon of "I get to rage at you whenever I want and always have the Ace in the Hole justification of your affair" and consciously stop hurting their spouse. If the Loyal Spouse chooses to keep that weapon and keeps using that weapon to hurt their spouse (and thus their marriage), then guess what? That is a CHOICE and it is not the choice of the Disloyal who came back to face the music from what they had done with the affair! The Disloyal does indeed need to hear their Loyal; does need to be patient; does need to be completely transparent and begin to demonstrate honest actions; does need to eat some crow (so to speak) for choosing infidelity. The Disloyal does not need to endlessly accept verbal, emotional, or mental abuse when the Loyal blameshifts their rage.
> 
> See, the goal of reconciliation is not "Let's make the Disloyal PAY." If that's the goal, no payment will ever be enough. The goal of reconciliation is to see the rubble of what's left of the destroyed marriage, and to REBUILD something strong, honest, and true. You can not rebuild when one partner is tearing down and then blaming the other.
> 
> I realize this is incredibly hard for about 99.99% of Loyal Spouses to hear, but this is my own humble opinion.


I love your advice, AC. I have a few points to toss into your salad; maybe you can fine tune it for these. 

I had to figure out my fWW was disloyal. I saw a few emails here and there, only a few. I knew she had a real shine for this guy before we got together. She'd had a bf in between OM and I, and to that bf she called OM "Mr Unresolved." This disturbed me, so I asked if he was, indeed, resolved. Yes, she said, he is. 

No, he wasn't. 

She lied to me about it for 2.5 years while I went crazy wondering why my life was so damned weird. WhenI finally found out and confronted her, it took her a few months to even admit it. I didn't show her my proof, I just asked her questions. No, she said, you have the dates wrong, that was before you. No, she said, he's an a-hole and I hate him. No, no, no, she said. 

She finally said yes, she had done all that. 

I found out because I had a gut feeling and a few cues. I had to search for the truth. 

I have never yelled at her for this. I've never thrown anything or broken anything. I simply said here's the deal. 

The problem is sometimes the anger in me rises to the top. This is when I'm awake at night while she's sleeping, or I'm alone doing something, or working on a hobby or project alone. It haunts me. I can't stop the mind movies. I can't stop assembling time line and her lies, and inserting facts I know to creat the whole story. With which I haven't confronted her. I know more than I've even spoken to her about. 

Why don't I go nuclear? I feel I have the right. She's remorseful, sure. But she never faced the music with all the instruments in the orchestra. Am I easy on her because I love her? I'm not afraid to confront her, I'm not afraid of confrontation in the big, wide world, either. But is there any mileage to be gained by yelling at her? Talking about it? Where do you draw the line between overkill for infidelity and underkill for the betrayed's ability to heal?


----------



## Affaircare

russell28 said:


> You know what else is a love buster, dropping your pants for someone you're not married to, and lying to your spouse about it.
> 
> As for the dangers and risks of cheating, being an overstatement.. just read the news once in awhile, you'll find it's not all that uncommon for people to lash out and harm each other over affairs. People shoot and stab each other over it. It's a reality. It's not just in movies.


russell, 

I believe there are a lot of people who think thoughts like this, but here's the problem. 

When I drop my pants for someone I'm not married to, that is a lovebuster, and I am responsible. 

When I lie to my spouse about it, that is a lovebuster and I am responsible. 

When my spouse rages against me in an abusive manner and does not do anything to stop being an abuser, that is a lovebuster and THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE. 

The fact that I did something "wrong" to someone does not justify them doing something "wrong" back to me. 

It's true that people do lash out and harm each other over affairs--but you notice it's in the NEWS. That's because if it was commonplace and acceptable (like breathing) it would not be newsworthy and no one would pay attention. Would you pay attention to a new report on "Today I breathed in and breathed out all day"? No! 

The reason it's NEWS is that it is newsworthy because it is unusual. If I lie to you, you are not justified to then steal from me. If you lie to me, I am not justified to then also lie to you. I would still be responsible to BE HONEST, and if I'm not honest, then it is on my shoulders to endure the consequence of MY LIE same as it's on your shoulders to bear the consequences of YOUR LIE. 

Again the lesson here is not that Loyal Spouse are "to blame" for a Disloyal Spouse's choices, but rather that each spouse is responsible for what they themselves choose to do. It is not reasonable to say "I could not stop myself" or "I couldn't help it" or else that excuse would be reasonable for Disloyals! AND IT IS NOT!! 

One person's bad, wrong or immoral choice does not justify another person to be bad, wrong or immoral in response.


----------



## Affaircare

doubletrouble said:


> I love your advice, AC. I have a few points to toss into your salad; maybe you can fine tune it for these.
> 
> ....
> 
> The problem is sometimes the anger in me rises to the top. This is when I'm awake at night while she's sleeping, or I'm alone doing something, or working on a hobby or project alone. It haunts me. I can't stop the mind movies. I can't stop assembling time line and her lies, and inserting facts I know to create the whole story. With which I haven't confronted her. I know more than I've even spoken to her about.
> 
> Why don't I go nuclear? I feel I have the right. She's remorseful, sure. But she never faced the music with all the instruments in the orchestra. Am I easy on her because I love her? I'm not afraid to confront her, I'm not afraid of confrontation in the big, wide world, either. But is there any mileage to be gained by yelling at her? Talking about it? Where do you draw the line between overkill for infidelity and underkill for the betrayed's ability to heal?


This is an EXCELLENT question! 

In real life anger is an emotion just like any other emotion. It is reasonable to express emotions of all kinds in a healthy way--and in a marriage "a healthy way" means in a way that does no harm to yourself, to your spouse or to the marriage as an entity. One thing that is so pervasive just EVERYWHERE is that "anger is bad" and thus people tend to bottle it up until there is so much built up that it explodes in a tirade of rage. 

This article has some excellent tips about anger: Dealing with Anger Constructively | Psych Central. Thus, in a summary I would encourage you to express your anger if that's what you're truly feeling. See....part of actual reconciliation is not just "getting over" the affair and pretending it didn't happen, but rather learning to be different people and part of that is both of you practicing transparency. That means "being see through" and letting your spouse see through to the Real You and sharing your REAL thoughts and feelings. 

However, it sounds like in addition to just the anger issues, that there are some issues in your situation that are specifically related to the affair. You write: 



> I can't stop the mind movies. I can't stop assembling time line and her lies, and inserting facts I know to create the whole story. With which I haven't confronted her. I know more than I've even spoken to her about.


Actually every time I see the words "I can't" I substitute the words "I won't" and in this instance it applies. Here's why. You COULD stop the mind movies. You COULD stop assembling timelines. It is within the realm of possibility. But what happens (as an example) is that your wife will be doing something alone, and without meaning to, the thought pops into your head. Right? It's not like you're sitting around thinking: "I believe I'm going to rehash all that affair sex and think about envisioning it." Nope, you are going about your day and POP there it is. 

But right there, in that split second, you have a choice. The mind movie pops into your head. And right there you have the choice to continue to watch the movie or to tell yourself:







Literally envision that stopsign in your mind and say out loud "I do not want to think about this. I want to think about something else right now. I want to think about the wonderful breakfast we had together. I want to think about the coffee we shared. I want to think about the pretty outfit she wore today. I want to remember her perfume. I want to think about her smile and the way she kissed me goodbye..." etc. 

Yes I realize it feels hokey to think of a stopsign and tell yourself what to think, but it is one way to train your mind in a new pattern that does not involve rehashing the affair. 

The next thing I notice in your question is that you say things like "she's remorseful" but in the next breath say that you never confronted her with everything you know and never got timelines, etc so that you feel like she hasn't faced the music from the full orchestra. 

I see it a little differently than most, I think. I personally believe that a Loyal Spouse will never get all the details, because in real life you were not there. Even if I said every single thought that passed through my head, you didn't experience what I did in the way I did and so you would interpret my sharing differently than I did. Thus I think it is redundant to try to get "all the details" because in reality the one fact you need, you've got. They were unfaithful! 

Furthermore, I think it's fairly common for a Loyal Spouse to put 2+2 together and assume some "detail" that in fact did not occur, and then when they demand "all the details" from the Disloyal, the Disloyal doesn't offer the 2+2 fact (because it honestly did not occur) and the Loyal feels like they are "missing all the facts." In an instance like this, what's happening then is that the Loyal felt like they were fooled, tried to make sense of it all, and put together some pieces that didn't actually go together. Then if you demand a detail that didn't occur, you are demanding a lie and think that if the Disloyal doesn't say what they know is a lie, that they are lying! (OY I have a headache from writing that, but did you follow?)

So this whole "getting all the details" thing is not constructive. I'm not advocating rugsweeping or avoiding, but rather, I'm saying that at some point for real Reconciliation to occur, the Disloyal has to demonstrate true REPENTANCE by acting in an entirely different way--and the Loyal has to consciously make the choice that from this day, hour, minute forward, that they are laying down the weapon of "making them pay" and looking to the present and to the future of BUILDING rather than tearing down. 

Now I personally envision gangrene. In order for someone with gangrene to heal, you have to cut out the dead tissue until you get to live, pink tissue. But once that dead tissue is cut off, you don't keep digging in the live tissue! You let it heal! It's similar for affairs. 

It sounds to me like you have cut some of the dead tissue off (she has ended the affair and you know she was unfaithful), but that maybe you have some more dead stuff to cut off, namely the two of you have sort of swept some of it aside and not dealt with it. I personally suggest you put all the cards on the table, don't avoid it, honestly go through everything you know and think and feel, and ask her to also share herself with you. Bear in mind that you will never really know when she tells all the truth or doesn't tell all the truth because she also doesn't know when you tell all the truth and you don't know when I tell all the truth. We aren't in each others' heads! But you can look at actions and lives.... and that is at least a clue.

Next it sounds like there is maybe some MORE dead tissue in that you say she's remorseful...but how does she demonstrate that? If she's going off alone leaving you in a hurting way, that doesn't sound like she's thinking of you and actively working for your healing. In addition, I note in your post that you didn't mention what you are doing for her healing so that the marriage is a UNITED marriage. You are not in this alone and neither is she, so BOTH of you have to work on repairing the marriage relationship, and "both" does include you. 

Eventually the day will come where you have gotten rid of all the dead tissue and you have to put the scalpel DOWN and stop cutting. That is the day I talk about when I say that a Loyal has to lay down the weapon of "making them pay" and work on the present and future. Now, of course, you don't HAVE TO--you can choose to keep the weapon and make her pay for the rest of your marriage, but making someone pay does not lead to a united, reconciled, recovered marriage. And if you stay married after an affair, that is the City we are heading toward: a united, reconciled, recovered, healthy, happy, loving marriage.


----------



## Aerith

russell28 said:


> You know what else is a love buster, dropping your pants for someone you're not married to, and lying to your spouse about it.


I know - and agree. That means *both spouses *are actively busting their love for each other...


----------



## Marduk

doubletrouble said:


> I love your advice, AC. I have a few points to toss into your salad; maybe you can fine tune it for these.
> 
> I had to figure out my fWW was disloyal. I saw a few emails here and there, only a few. I knew she had a real shine for this guy before we got together. She'd had a bf in between OM and I, and to that bf she called OM "Mr Unresolved." This disturbed me, so I asked if he was, indeed, resolved. Yes, she said, he is.
> 
> No, he wasn't.
> 
> She lied to me about it for 2.5 years while I went crazy wondering why my life was so damned weird. WhenI finally found out and confronted her, it took her a few months to even admit it. I didn't show her my proof, I just asked her questions. No, she said, you have the dates wrong, that was before you. No, she said, he's an a-hole and I hate him. No, no, no, she said.
> 
> She finally said yes, she had done all that.
> 
> I found out because I had a gut feeling and a few cues. I had to search for the truth.
> 
> I have never yelled at her for this. I've never thrown anything or broken anything. I simply said here's the deal.
> 
> The problem is sometimes the anger in me rises to the top. This is when I'm awake at night while she's sleeping, or I'm alone doing something, or working on a hobby or project alone. It haunts me. I can't stop the mind movies. I can't stop assembling time line and her lies, and inserting facts I know to creat the whole story. With which I haven't confronted her. I know more than I've even spoken to her about.
> 
> Why don't I go nuclear? I feel I have the right. She's remorseful, sure. But she never faced the music with all the instruments in the orchestra. Am I easy on her because I love her? I'm not afraid to confront her, I'm not afraid of confrontation in the big, wide world, either. But is there any mileage to be gained by yelling at her? Talking about it? Where do you draw the line between overkill for infidelity and underkill for the betrayed's ability to heal?


Holy crap man. Just chiming in to say that I'm so sorry that you have to go through this and I'm not sure I could.


----------



## Racer

AC nailed it. At first, I couldn't just "stop". So I used the method of "not now" and set aside twice a day to puke it out into a journal. That became once a day. I just found I could 'procrastinate' allowing my head to dwell on this, but couldn't deny it from happening.

And for me, that thinking eventually morphed into more self-realization and thoughts about how I tick rather than speculating about my WW. And those insights allowed me to gain tighter reign and control over how I wanted to feel and react so it became a choice. Which dominoes into taking that rage and anger and choosing to use it like a fuel to change my own lot in life rather than just ranting at the unfairness of it.


----------



## doubletrouble

Yes AC, I actually did follow that! Thank you. 

We do healing things. She sends me off to work with "snack packs" and there's always a note in there. I go home for lunch (at her demand, origainlly) and she has a hot meal and a kiss for me. Things like that. We do healing things. She broke down crying a couple days ago, rather out of the blue, and apologized again. 

Then she sorta takes a little away from it by saying "I'm sorry we hurt each other," because she has never let go of the fact that i was writing my Chinese (female) pen pal all through her affair. She contends it was an EA, and even by the slimmest TAM definition, I can tell you it was not. There was no love, merely curiousity about Chinese culture. 

But in the back of my mind I think she knows that. She had the password to my email, but just happened to give me the wrong password to hers. I never suspected a thing so I never checked until way late in the game. She's even said that what she did was far worse than anything I did. And that I didn't deserve it. 

Frankly, I druther she follow THAT line of thinking than the "we" line of thinking. It's closer to the bone. 

I only uncovered all this February of last year, which is how I found TAM in the first place. So it's still fresh for me, 14-15 months later. 

The stop sign isn't silly. I do know about programming the subconscious and have used it to great effect in my life. I had just forgotten that tool. So thank you; I'll see if I can figure a way to make that work. 

_________________________________________

Marduk, thank you. I'm thinking I could sell rights to a movie lol


----------



## doubletrouble

Racer said:


> AC nailed it. At first, I couldn't just "stop". So I used the method of "not now" and set aside twice a day to puke it out into a journal. That became once a day. I just found I could 'procrastinate' allowing my head to dwell on this, but couldn't deny it from happening.
> 
> And for me, that thinking eventually morphed into more self-realization and thoughts about how I tick rather than speculating about my WW. And those insights allowed me to gain tighter reign and control over how I wanted to feel and react so it became a choice. Which dominoes into taking that rage and anger and choosing to use it like a fuel to change my own lot in life rather than just ranting at the unfairness of it.


I call that transmutation of energy. 

I've learned a lot in the last three years. I druther've learned how to weave underwear from horse hair.

I started a journal. Told W about it. She said why are you writing down things and not telling me? Uh, because you're the problem? 
I stopped writing the journal finally. I think I was taking the wrong tack as far as its therapeutic value.


----------



## Affaircare

I too used a journal for a long time. Partly because I'm a writer kind of person (can't tell by my verbosity at all, can ya?) and partly because often I'd FEEL things and not be able to nail down exactly what it was I was feeling so writing helped me nail it down, and partly because there is a release of energy involved in actually writing with a pen in a notebook. 

So I highly endorse Racer's suggestion. I think it is right on the money. I also add to it by suggesting that maybe you take a similar tactic with your wife and the affair. Instead of having big, long, exhausting "discussions" about all the details, maybe ask if the two of you could agree to a 30-minute timeframe each day where you could ask one question and she would answer it IN FULL. 

This gives HER the reassurance it won't be a "crucify Wifey" meeting and it will have a limit to it's length. 

This gives YOU one time each day you can ask any question that is driving you nuts or bugging you, and the knowledge that you will get a full answer to that one question. 

THEN if you are in mid-discussion and the 30-minutes expire, just ask if the two of you can agree to continue "for 30 more minutes" or if you should agree to take up the topic "where we left off" tomorrow. 

See, she needs to know that she can depend on it not becoming an hours-long inquisition ... unless she agrees to continue. And you need to know that you can ask anything you want and have special time set aside every day JUST FOR YOU.


----------



## Racer

The journaling helped. But I’ve also got to admit I was one of those who allowed the rage to broil out. 

I’d tettered back and forth whether to mention this or not. But it is a wayward thread and thought maybe I should also put forth a cautionary tale. If you don’t come to Reconciliation with complete and open communication and transparency and insist on keeping the lies hidden or leveraging for changes in the marriage you want… it will bite you and do entirely more damage than your affairs ever could. 

Your worst nightmare isn’t a broken hearted spouse and knowing you caused it. It is someone very intelligent, who owns your heart, knows your dreams, your insecurities, and you still rely on for support, deciding you must perish because who you are now offends them at the deepest level. A warm embrace was offered and a second chance; you used it to cake eat and try to save yourself. 

The first round is grief and confusion. But there’s a place beyond that… you do not want them to go there.

My false-r lead to my breaking. That removed that filter you got out of love and compassion. I know it doesn’t seem like it to a wayward, but most BS’s actually hold back from really doing what we want to say and do. We still see ourselves as your spouse, and there are ‘rules’ for how you are supposed to treat people you love even if you didn't play by those rules. And there’s still love, hope and care there. It can be broken.

I drove her into deep depression for just ‘being her’, when suicide became an option for her, I did not extend my hand… just shoved her to her own councilor. For me that was just a solution to a messy divorce. That’s where this TT, gaslighting, omission and continuation of even your special friendship can go. I offered less help than I would a complete stranger. A dark place.


----------



## cpacan

A few comments from me, if I'm allowed.

Lookinforsupport, you say that you apologize every day - to me it seems as if you don't quite know what you're apologizing for, since you apparently don't understand your wife's anger.

I can't say that I blame you - I didn't have a clue about the hurt and pain that infidelity can cause, untill I found a dagger at the core of my soul, stabbed by the person closest to me, twisted several rounds when I learned the extend of the betrayal. I had no idea untill then, I guess you have to experience it to fully understand it. And it was also the wildest out-of-body experience to watch myself fight through this. I'm three years out and still not healthy on all parameters, I'm aware of that.

Some fWS on this board, though, is close to an understanding, those who posses empathy (thank you Mrs.Adams), those who could see the horror in the eyes of their loved one, those who could feel it when their partner's body was shaking and their heart skipped a few beats once in a while. I respect that, I really do.

Now to the point. Affaircare, while I agree with you on the "everyone is responsible for their own actions, betrayed spouses included", I was surprised to see you label anger as an attack weapon and tool for punishment. IMO, that's wrong. I consider anger a defensive weapon, used to protect yourself from danger. And why does MrsLookingforsupport feel the need to protect herself?

Most people on this board, I believe, can easily separate the WS that get it from those who don't. Lookingforsupport come across as someone who really doesn't get it, yet, at least. Personally, I sense "It was just sex and betrayal, no big deal, nothing to be angry about" all over the place - the classic "bitter BS" judgement with the "disproportionate" remark topping it off. I'm quite convinced that MrsLookingforsupport sees and senses this too.

And what's the danger from someone (a WS) who doesn't get it? They most likely don't have the will, power, skills or tools to avoid second offenses. And this is what she has to fight each and every day, the fear of being stabbed again, unable to recover from it and get on her feet again. BTDT - still do, so I "know".

Untill he's willing to take the responsibility and break that negative cycle, nothing is going to change, other than maybe her ability to detach - she may get a lot better at that. Also BTDT.

At this point I would like to thank you, fWS, who are still here, fighting on a regularily basis to pass on experience to newbies. Thank you for doing that.


----------



## Laurel

One thing a WS can never fully understand is how soul-destroying it is to find out your spouse has been cheating on you and lying to you. You just cannot comprehend it until it happens to you. Some people are just not able to get over it. 

I was always a very mild-mannered, even-tempered person. And, of course, the person who always said they would NEVER forgive a cheater. Even when my H and I would have disagreements or fights, I was always the calm one, the reasonable one. I never experienced the feeling of uncontrolled rage until I discovered my H's infidelity. For months afterwards, I would get triggered and it was like a demon had taken control of my body. It was like an out-of-body experience. I knew my behavior was out of control and I was acting like a lunatic, but it was like I couldn't stop myself once I got going. Being cheated on changes who you are. The sheer pain of it all is unbearable at times, and seemingly the only way to soothe it is to lash out at the person that caused the pain to begin with. 

My WH put up with a lot in those first couple months (and rightly so). But after a particularly bad rage of mine, we decided we couldn't go on as we were. We were at a crossroads - either we had to commit to R and re-building our new marriage, or get divorced and start over separately. I didn't want to be in a marriage where I was punishing him for the rest of his life and having a rage fit every other week. That's no way to live. I had to do my best to let things go, and start over. I knew that deep down he was a good person that had made horrible mistakes. I knew he was sorry for those mistakes. And I knew that he was willing to do everything in his power to make up for those mistakes. So I decided to give him another chance, and commit to real R. 

The "stop sign" AffairCare talks about is real, as silly as it may sound. Bad thoughts pop up of course, and when they do, it takes a very conscious effort to quell them. But it can be done. 

Time really does make things easier. But WS need to have an abundance of patience and understanding if they want to save their marriage. There is no quick fix, and there is no timetable on healing. And the sad fact is, not everyone can heal from infidelity. But a WS doesn't deserve a lifetime of rages - that is not healthy for either party.


----------



## russell28

Affaircare said:


> russell,
> 
> I believe there are a lot of people who think thoughts like this, but here's the problem.
> 
> When I drop my pants for someone I'm not married to, that is a lovebuster, and I am responsible.
> 
> When I lie to my spouse about it, that is a lovebuster and I am responsible.
> 
> When my spouse rages against me in an abusive manner and does not do anything to stop being an abuser, that is a lovebuster and THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE.
> 
> The fact that I did something "wrong" to someone does not justify them doing something "wrong" back to me.
> 
> It's true that people do lash out and harm each other over affairs--but you notice it's in the NEWS. That's because if it was commonplace and acceptable (like breathing) it would not be newsworthy and no one would pay attention. Would you pay attention to a new report on "Today I breathed in and breathed out all day"? No!
> 
> The reason it's NEWS is that it is newsworthy because it is unusual. If I lie to you, you are not justified to then steal from me. If you lie to me, I am not justified to then also lie to you. I would still be responsible to BE HONEST, and if I'm not honest, then it is on my shoulders to endure the consequence of MY LIE same as it's on your shoulders to bear the consequences of YOUR LIE.
> 
> Again the lesson here is not that Loyal Spouse are "to blame" for a Disloyal Spouse's choices, but rather that each spouse is responsible for what they themselves choose to do. It is not reasonable to say "I could not stop myself" or "I couldn't help it" or else that excuse would be reasonable for Disloyals! AND IT IS NOT!!
> 
> One person's bad, wrong or immoral choice does not justify another person to be bad, wrong or immoral in response.


I never said it was justified, just said it can come with the package when you choose to cheat.. People do things out of character when they are faced with an emotional trauma of a dday. I never said it's okay to abuse someone, verbally or otherwise. I told him to not let her abuse him verbally. I also tried to help him understand why the rage.


----------



## doubletrouble

Racer said:


> The journaling helped. But I’ve also got to admit I was one of those who allowed the rage to broil out.
> 
> I’d tettered back and forth whether to mention this or not. But it is a wayward thread and thought maybe I should also put forth a cautionary tale. If you don’t come to Reconciliation with complete and open communication and transparency and insist on keeping the lies hidden or leveraging for changes in the marriage you want… it will bite you and do entirely more damage than your affairs ever could.
> 
> Your worst nightmare isn’t a broken hearted spouse and knowing you caused it. It is someone very intelligent, who owns your heart, knows your dreams, your insecurities, and you still rely on for support, deciding you must perish because who you are now offends them at the deepest level. A warm embrace was offered and a second chance; you used it to cake eat and try to save yourself.
> 
> The first round is grief and confusion. But there’s a place beyond that… you do not want them to go there.
> 
> My false-r lead to my breaking. That removed that filter you got out of love and compassion. *I know it doesn’t seem like it to a wayward, but most BS’s actually hold back from really doing what we want to say and do. We still see ourselves as your spouse, and there are ‘rules’ for how you are supposed to treat people you love even if you didn't play by those rules.* And there’s still love, hope and care there. It can be broken.
> 
> I drove her into deep depression for just ‘being her’, when suicide became an option for her, I did not extend my hand… just shoved her to her own councilor. For me that was just a solution to a messy divorce. That’s where this TT, gaslighting, omission and continuation of even your special friendship can go. I offered less help than I would a complete stranger. A dark place.


This all rings true; the bolded part hits directly home with me. Thanks, Racer.


----------



## doubletrouble

Affaircare said:


>


AC, I used this last night. Thank you.

I don't know if it was just the sign or the fact that I was very tired last night going to bed, but at least I didn't stay awake and didn't fall into a deep rabbit hole last night. 

There are no single-answer solutions, but that's why we're all here. It takes time. I know too much, and can be a very analytical thinker. Especially on topics of great personal interest. This one, obviously, is of great personal interest. I could get a PhD in it.


----------



## carpenoctem

Racer said:


> I drove her into deep depression for just ‘being her’, when suicide became an option for her, I did not extend my hand… just shoved her to her own councilor. For me that was just a solution to a messy divorce. That’s where this TT, gaslighting, omission and continuation of even your special friendship can go. *I offered less help than I would a complete stranger.* A dark place.



*such an acidic reality.*

The 'living with the enemy' aspect of Reconciliation turns it all upside down.


----------



## carpenoctem

Laurel said:


> Time really does make things easier. But WS need to have an abundance of patience and understanding if they want to save their marriage. There is no quick fix, and there is no timetable on healing. *And the sad fact is, not everyone can heal from infidelity. But a WS doesn't deserve a lifetime of rages - that is not healthy for either party.*






Headspin said:


> And *i can tell you it is healthy to rage to let loose at the object who has just re written your whole existence **YES YOUR WHOLE EXISTENCE* (In case you still don't get it)



Both sound rational.

What a brutal mind-rape this whole thing is.


----------



## Headspin

Racer said:


> ...... *I know it doesn’t seem like it to a wayward, but most BS’s actually hold back from really doing what we want to say and do.* We still see ourselves as your spouse, and there are ‘rules’ for how you are supposed to treat people you love even if you didn't play by those rules. And there’s still love, hope and care there. It can be broken.
> 
> I drove her into deep depression for just ‘being her’, when suicide became an option for her, I did not extend my hand… just shoved her to her own councilor. For me that was just a solution to a messy divorce. That’s where this TT, gaslighting, omission and continuation of even your special friendship can go. I offered less help than I would a complete stranger. A dark place.


That is the crux of reconciliation per sa. The bs is STILL living in fear , often holding back on what they really ought and want to say and do for fear that the person who has already shat all over their lives will 

a/ get off scott free and 

b/ do so again ! 

In the aftermath there is always another part of the betrayal story that the bs will want to inquire about knowing the wayward will never want to give it up willingly so the fear of pushing for more truth than the wayward is willing to give is always there, all held tenuously together by 'love'

We all know love is a wonderful thing 

..........but it can also be a fearful terrible thing


----------



## Regret214

I can tell you and you can also read his posts from the past; Dig never held back. I hate to admit it because he's unable to defend himself here, but he was absolutely unrestricted when it came to what he said. The filter was totally taken off to the point the 'C' word was dropped a few times. That's one of the reasons he would get upset with some here who said I didn't "suffer" any consequences. 

I fully agree with your last statement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## russell28

Regret214 said:


> I can tell you and you can also read his posts from the past; Dig never held back. I hate to admit it because he's unable to defend himself here, but he was absolutely unrestricted when it came to what he said. The filter was totally taken off to the point the 'C' word was dropped a few times. That's one of the reasons he would get upset with some here who said I didn't "suffer" any consequences.
> 
> I fully agree with your last statement.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was more subtle, instead of the c word.. I'd keep it clean, but say like "I knew I shouldn't have dated anyone from the north end of town".. which basically was saying you're a c word.. without saying it, then you do feel bad for hurting them, but I guess it's normal to want to lash out when you're so angry about something. It must be difficult for the WS too because they are thinking the person is right and they can't fight back at that point because they are feeling so low about themselves. So you're beating down a person that's already down, it's a struggle because you obviously care about them and don't intend to hurt them, you're just wanting them to understand the reality of what's going on in your head at that point in time.


----------



## lookingforsupport

So there's been an interesting and helpful range of responses to my questions and concerns. Despite the tendency of some of you to come after me and attack me, your words are helpful because the pain and anger you feel is very much in line with how my wife feels on the inside. Racked with so much pain, incapable of doing the worst things she thinks about, and totally convinced that any pain we are experiencing now is entirely my fault. She cannot, in those moments, acknowledge that she has any shortcomings, so all-consuming is her desire to bring me to that same place of hurt where she's living. I truly hope you, and she, and all others who stand in these shoes, can find a path past the anger and ranting. Everything I've read suggests that it serves no positive purpose. Your plea for patience reminds me that I just don't have control over her feelings and thoughts, that mostly what I can do is watch and wait and answer her questions to the best of my ability.

And thanks to those of you who hear in my story something less selfish. My wife won't go to MC with me, or IC for herself. She tells nobody about her struggles on a regular basis. I remain her only regular confidante, even now, even after betraying and hurting her so badly. So I have to do more than I really can do, as just one flawed person, and this board is one of my resources for both helping her through the pain and treating myself as the source of that pain. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. Thanks for your kindness and understanding.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Headspin

lookingforsupport said:


> So there's been an interesting and helpful range of responses to my questions and concerns. Despite the tendency of some of you to come after me and attack me, your words are helpful because the pain and anger you feel is very much in line with how my wife feels on the inside. Racked with so much pain, incapable of doing the worst things she thinks about, and totally convinced that any pain we are experiencing now is entirely my fault. She cannot, in those moments, acknowledge that she has any shortcomings, so all-consuming is her desire to bring me to that same place of hurt where she's living. I truly hope you, and she, and all others who stand in these shoes, can find a path past the anger and ranting. *Everything I've read suggests that it serves no positive purpose.* Your plea for patience reminds me that I just don't have control over her feelings and thoughts, that mostly what I can do is watch and wait and answer her questions to the best of my ability.
> 
> And thanks to those of you who hear in my story something less selfish. My wife won't go to MC with me, or IC for herself. She tells nobody about her struggles on a regular basis. I remain her only regular confidante, even now, even after betraying and hurting her so badly. So I have to do more than I really can do, as just one flawed person, and this board is one of my resources for both helping her through the pain and treating myself as the source of that pain. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. Thanks for your kindness and understanding.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No its very positive for many of us 

I have a better life. I can do more for my kids I am in control of so much more without her, no more living the 'what on earth is she doing and who with on a daily basis' - positive positive ...

However it still hurts a lot and I will never be in a place to let her get away scott free from wrecking something that was very very good, for wrecking other marriages as well - there's many, about a dozen kids in various marriages who have felt the backlash of her infidelities - the fall out 

I'm never gonna let her be in a place where she can say "Oohh we just grew apart I met someone else and that was that". That's what most cheats want, that's their way of 'getting on' with life and re writing the past to suit their explanations, so I happily keep my bitterness tucked away ready to be pulled out when the truth needs to be aired to anybody that wants to know just to make sure they get the RIGHT story - the TRUTH.

I'm happy with myself for that 

This is the bit that many waywards do not get or want to get because it forever highlights the gravity of what they did/do.


----------



## russell28

lookingforsupport said:


> So there's been an interesting and helpful range of responses to my questions and concerns. Despite the tendency of some of you to come after me and attack me, your words are helpful because the pain and anger you feel is very much in line with how my wife feels on the inside. Racked with so much pain, incapable of doing the worst things she thinks about, and totally convinced that *any pain we are experiencing now is entirely my fault*. She cannot, in those moments, acknowledge that she has any shortcomings, so all-consuming is her desire to bring me to that same place of hurt where she's living. I truly hope you, and she, and all others who stand in these shoes, can find a path past the anger and ranting. Everything I've read suggests that it serves no positive purpose. Your plea for patience reminds me that I just don't have control over her feelings and thoughts, that mostly what I can do is watch and wait and answer her questions to the best of my ability.
> 
> And thanks to those of you who hear in my story something less selfish. My wife won't go to MC with me, or IC for herself. She tells nobody about her struggles on a regular basis. I remain her only regular confidante, even now, even after betraying and hurting her so badly. So I have to do more than I really can do, as just one flawed person, and this board is one of my resources for both helping her through the pain and treating myself as the source of that pain. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. Thanks for your kindness and understanding.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It sounds like your wife needs someone to talk to about this, anyone.. and it sounds like she might not feel you've suffered any consequences if nobody knows about it since you two never split over the affair, even for a short time. Check with your work and see if they have any type of services for counseling, sometimes they waive the copay and you can get free sessions.

If she seems upset, and you can tell.. don't try to change the subject, don't try to pretend you don't know she's upset, tell her something to make her feel better. 

"I'm sorry I made you have to have those thoughts"

"Thank you for letting me stay in your life"


You say she's
*totally convinced that any pain we are experiencing now is entirely my fault*

Give this one some thought. Was the pain she's feeling from your infidelity, her fault? If so, what percentage of blame do you put on her for you choosing to cheat instead of working on your marriage problems?

Once you get to the place where you realize that the pain you are experiencing is entirely your fault, you can heal.

You chose to cheat instead of working on your marriage or leaving the marriage. That's on you 100% unless at some point you asked your wife if that path would be okay and she approved.

This is why we "attack" you. You perceive it as an attack, we're just trying to help you understand what it will take to make your wife feel safe with you. Starting with you owning your choices, and not trying to put that on your wife. Bad enough you cheated on her with another woman, now you want her to take some of the blame for it. That is painful, you want her to have in her mind that she somehow drove you into the arms of another woman, that's why she should forgive you, because it's partially her fault. Remove that attitude and you have a chance of fixing your relationship. She might have had some role in the demise of your passion, your relationship, your marriage, but she didn't choose for you to sneak and lie to her.

So once that sentence reads:
*I'm sorry about any pain you are experiencing now, it is entirely my fault*

You'll be good to go, she might actually want MC or IC because she'll think you're starting to 'get it'.


----------



## vellocet

Headspin said:


> However it still hurts a lot and I will never be in a place to let her get away scott free from wrecking something that was very very good, for wrecking other marriages as well



How will you never let her get away scott free? What is the actions you will take?


----------



## harrybrown

Regret214 said:


> I can tell you and you can also read his posts from the past; Dig never held back. I hate to admit it because he's unable to defend himself here, but he was absolutely unrestricted when it came to what he said. The filter was totally taken off to the point the 'C' word was dropped a few times. That's one of the reasons he would get upset with some here who said I didn't "suffer" any consequences.
> 
> I fully agree with your last statement.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When I try to read Dig's posts, I can't find the ones about his early posting. (or the posts that he started) 

OK, I found some of them.

I do think you have a wonderful H. He did what many men would not be able to do.

I am still without most answers. I am in limbo, but I still struggle and want to find peace and move on. But I can't seem to get there. I thought he got there and want to move on the same way. I do wish he was still posting. So if he ever has any advice on how to stay married and move on, would you ask him for the secret?


----------



## Regret214

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/53216-story-dig.html

This is one of the threads he wrote. Tag on his name and then look under Statistics to search for threads he started. This particular one is his life story.


----------



## Headspin

vellocet said:


> How will you never let her get away scott free? What is the actions you will take?


I live in a smallish town. I can either completely forget it all or whenever anything about us comes up let people know the truth and not allow her to live her lie forever 

Not a chance in hell. Surprising the number of dual contacts over time and people who inquire about it all. 

Till my dying breath she'll never get that luxury of allowing it to be forgotten by the whole world

Not saying I'm making it an ambition or will go out of my way to spread her destructions to all and sundry but anyone who wants to know - will know from me, happily

Tbh many do anyway and it's forever the bane of her life. She hates it that people in generally know she's been a serial cheating scumbag and is now joined by posom another cheating scumbag.

It's amazing really as it's all about 'owning it' - which she has never, will never do. Still nil remorse and I vow that until she actually shows that then I'll treat her like the scum she is 

Sometimes I despair for a minute or two that we have kids otherwise this would be so so easy


----------



## vellocet

Headspin said:


> I live in a smallish town. I can either completely forget it all or whenever anything about us comes up let people know the truth and not allow her to live her lie forever


But why would you want to be with someone you have to call on her lying? Why would you want someone that doesn't get it and you have to basically babysit?

Why be with someone who is "scum"?


----------



## pidge70

vellocet said:


> But why would you want to be with someone you have to call on her lying? Why would you want someone that doesn't get it and you have to basically babysit?
> 
> Why be with someone who is "scum"?


He's not. He's divorcing her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

pidge70 said:


> He's not. He's divorcing her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, I guess I missed that then, but then it doesn't make much sense to call her out on anything.

I divorced my wife. If she wants to be in denial, I've got better things to do than correct her. One of the better things to do is having no contact with her whatsoever with the exception of dealing with her solely because of the kids.
I simply am not going to waste my time on the wench.


----------



## Headspin

vellocet said:


> Ok, I guess I missed that then, but then it doesn't make much sense to call her out on anything.
> 
> I divorced my wife. If she wants to be in denial, I've got better things to do than correct her. One of the better things to do is having no contact with her whatsoever with the exception of dealing with her solely because of the kids.
> I simply am not going to waste my time on the wench.


Not sure you get this vell. I am separated two years. We should already be divorced but she has delayed on papers connected to house and money. She is with posom although just before xmas trying to come back to me !! 

My point is that actually I have apart from the kids very little to do with her. But like all serial cheats she wants the door of the 'past' firmly shut but where I am concerned it never will be. She'd like to just drive onwards as if 15 years with me and serial adultery etc etc never even happened.

I'm not 'active' in shouting publicly about her and her 'deed's of multi family destruction BUT if given an opportunity in some form I will never shirk from mentioning the depths that she took my children and I the other families she destroyed to. Every so often somebody will tentatively inquire about what happened and I always let them have both barrels so they are under no illusions about her and her appalling choices.

She deserves nothing less


----------

