# Unhappy sex life is killing our marriage



## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

My wife and I have been married for nearly 14 years. We have two children. We were both virgins (by choice due to religious beliefs) when we got married. In many ways we're a good match. She is a good wife (outside of bed) and a great mother. She's very attractive and takes great care of herself. 

Our problem is wildly different feelings about sex. Like most guys, I have always had a great interest in sex and I want to enjoy it. I want to be open and experiment to see what excites us. I want to be good at it. I want it to be fun. I'm willing to try pretty much anything that can be done within the confines of marriage and isn't illegal or involve farm animals  I had lots of opportunities to explore sex before we were married but I was committed to waiting. In my adolescent mind, I dreamed of the day when I'd have fulfilling sex with my wife who would also view sex as something fun and exciting.

My wife, on the other hand, is extremely reserved and is easily offended by anything she considers "kinky." Unfortunately, pretty much anything outside of regular intercourse is "kinky" in her mind. Forbidden things include:


Oral sex (giving or receiving)
Any kind of anal touching or sex
Bedroom toys of any kind
Anything that involves ejaculate ending up anywhere outside her vagina
Porn (Since we've had kids, this even includes "sex" scenes on broadcast tv.)
Dirty talk (In bed she refers to my penis as my "penis.") 
Light bondage (Recently I suggested that it might be fun if she tied me up or if I tied her up, whichever would interest her more. She was _horrified!_ "We're married...we aren't supposed to hurt each other!")
Her touching herself in any way whatsoever, even if it's at my request and for my benefit.
Sex in an "exotic" place, which includes a tent (just the two of us) while camping or in the locked bedroom of the home of either of our parents while we're visiting for holidays. 

As a result, sex has become ridiculously frustrating because of all the rules. If I deviate from the "script" (basically 2 minutes of mostly dry kisses (because she claims she doesn't "need" foreplay) followed by me putting my "penis" in her and trying to finish in 3 or 4 minutes), then she's completely unreceptive or even offended at me being so "perverted." "Normal" women just want to have sex with their husbands, not do all kinds of perverted things, right?

In her mind, I'm the one that's wrong and she views sex the way that other "normal" women do. The idea that any women actually enjoy oral sex, for example, is a porn myth that I got from watching porn. (She found porn on my computer once and was outraged, telling me that it's the exact same thing as me having an affair... Yep, exactly the same thing.) She will wear lingerie (if it's not trashy,which excludes lots of lingerie; but that's not really the big issue here.) She will lie on her back or she'll lie on me, so she is "open" to sexual variety according to her.

This is important to her because she genuinely wants to "satisfy" me in bed because she feels like it's her marital obligation. This mindset in and of itself is frustrating to me because in 14 years of marriage she has never once said she _wants_ to have sex, it's always that she's "willing" to have sex. On many occasions, she's asked if I wanted to have sex, and I've said, "I want to if you want to..." but she refuses to say anything more than that she's "willing." I've tried and tried and tried to explain to her that I don't want some kind of sex doll, I want someone who wants to have sex with me, not just a warm body who is "willing." Still, I know that it's important to her to fulfill her "wifely duty," but the problem is that as long as she's viewing it as a wifely duty I'm not going to be interested.

Over the years I've tried to get her to open up about sex and to talk about any fantasies she might have, but she insists she has no fantasies whatsoever. None...because, you know, women don't like sex, they just do it to satisfy their husbands. By years of trial and error, I finally found one fantasy that can actually make her become sexually aroused in bed. If I describe a scenario of her with another guy and me watching or even participating, she will sometimes get really turned on and we actually have some pretty good sex. Obviously the taboo nature of that fantasy is what drives it for her, but I'm good with it and it's a pretty hot fantasy to me, too.

Unfortunately, that type of fantasy makes her feel really guilty later and if she ever lets herself go enough to enjoy the fantasy (which is rare because she resists getting into it) she'll tell me how terrible it is that I would be turned on by that and that she's really hurt that we can't just have "normal" sex. I've explained that I don't think fantasizing in bed is a bad thing. Neither of us is considering becoming swingers and the fantasy guy isn't typically a real person anyway. I'm not offended by the fantasy nor am I threatened by her getting turned on by the fantasy.

Last weekend we had what I felt was some pretty good sex (by our modest standards) which included some of that fantasy. I told her several times the next day that I had really enjoyed it and that I hoped she did too. (She did have an O, which is not always the case when we have sex.)

So last night, she was hinting that she was willing to have sex but wanted to let me know that she never wanted me to talk about any fantasy like that again because she thinks it's wrong and that we should just have sex like "normal" people do. 

So we had a big blowup last night about everything. I told her I didn't care if it was that fantasy or something else, but that I didn't want to have the same rote sex with a "willing" but not eager partner for the rest of my life. I tried to explain (again) that it's frustrating to me that the menu in our bedroom is so limited and that she won't even consider doing anything outside her comfort zone. I would be willing to try anything she wanted to try. I told her (truthfully) that I have had several opportunities to cheat with women that really wanted me to but that I had never done it because I really want to be faithful, but it's harder and harder because I'm so dissatisfied with our sexual relationship because of her prudish mindset.

I tried really hard to tell her how I feel without being needlessly harsh, but I realize hearing how I felt was hurtful to her. She cried and said she was sorry she wasn't able to satisfy me and she would do exactly what I wanted. The frustrating thing about it all was that by her saying that I just reinforced that she doesn't get it at all. I don't want her to just follow some list of instructions. There's no particular one thing I want her to do. What Iwant is for her to view herself as an individual who can and should enjoy sex as much as me. I want her to be a partner, not a concubine. Yes, I'd love a blowjob, but I don't want one from someone who is acting out of some insane sense of obligation.

I'm really at wits end. We get along in most other ways, but honestly animosity about sex has affected many other areas of our marriage. I'm frustrated because I feel like waiting until marriage was a bad decision because we realized only after the fact that we're incredibly incompatible sexually. I don't want to cheat, though I'm considering it and I don't want a divorce (because of the kids, primarily), though I'm considering that too. I've become increasingly convinced that things will never change in any substantial way because she's absolutely convinced that women aren't supposed to have an interest in or enjoy sex even within marriage. I've bought dozens of selfhelp books about sex, which she has never read more than a few token pages before becoming offended and throwing it out. If she was personally uninterested in any particular sex act I'd be ok with it, but when she's opposed to everything it really makes it impossible to have a partner in crime to experiment with in bed, which is something I'd love to have.

Any suggestions? Am I being unreasonable? I really think we'll end up divorced if we can't find some common ground soon.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Prior to getting married, did she give you any reason to believe she was a sexual being? My thoughts are that yes, you are being unreasonable in asking someone who was sexually repressed (and who you knew was like that prior to marrying) and expecting her to just open up to something more. You can butt your head against the wall all you like on this, and you won't gain much ground. But I don't know if she mis-lead you or not. 

Having said that... Your "want list" doesn't seem unreasonable between a loving couple, Christian or not. I'm not religious, but my recollection is that so long as things are monogamous and involve a consenting married couple, you're good to go. Maybe you could do some digging for a Christian sexual therapist?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

My condolences. At least in my prior sexless (< 10x/year, most years) marriage, when we did have sex, it was usually pretty good.

In your case, you have a fundamental and _radical_ difference of opinion about sex, and IMO, she is ridiculously repressed. Sadly, I don't think there is _any_ hope for improvement. If you knew this before you married, then the blame is yours, but that does NOT mean you have to live with it forever.

I no longer have patience for sexual mismatches in relationships, and after divorcing my ex, made sure to find someone compatible. I'll never again accept an unfulfilling sex life, and if you want a good one, I think you have only one choice.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

PBear said:


> Prior to getting married, did she give you any reason to believe she was a sexual being? My thoughts are that yes, you are being unreasonable in asking someone who was sexually repressed (and who you knew was like that prior to marrying) and expecting her to just open up to something more. You can butt your head against the wall all you like on this, and you won't gain much ground. But I don't know if she mis-lead you or not.
> 
> Having said that... Your "want list" doesn't seem unreasonable between a loving couple, Christian or not. I'm not religious, but my recollection is that so long as things are monogamous and involve a consenting married couple, you're good to go. Maybe you could do some digging for a Christian sexual therapist?
> 
> ...


It wasn't really clear that she was sexually repressed before we got married. We talked about sex positively and we did lots of physically affection things while we were dating, including bringing each other to orgasm manually while we were making out. We both talked about how we _wanted_ to have sex and we couldn't wait until we were married, though we obviously had completely different notions of what that would be. I agree with you though, in that I was dumb and "in love" and would have been wise to get into the specifics before saying "I do."


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I know this doesn't sound good, but perhaps you should have taken her up on her offer to do what you want. Sometimes women need to have the decision making taken away from them. She might secretly want to give you oral for example, but good girls don't so she just can't bring herself there. But if you "make" her do it then she's absolve of the responsibility for doing it.

Same thing with this weekend and how she was into the fantasy, then hinted she was up for sex again but told you not to do the fantasy thing again. Personally I would have taken her to bed and ignored her objections and go right back to the fantasy. Forget words and arguments. Show her by your actions that that part is under your control.

She needs a leader. And an excuse / plausible deniability.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Red Hare said:


> It wasn't really clear that she was sexually repressed before we got married. We talked about sex positively and we did lots of physically affection things while we were dating, including bringing each other to orgasm manually while we were making out. We both talked about how we _wanted_ to have sex and we couldn't wait until we were married, though we obviously had completely different notions of what that would be. I agree with you though, in that I was dumb and "in love" and would have been wise to get into the specifics before saying "I do."


How old were you when you married? I think virgin marriages are a real challenge and it really comes down to the luck of the draw. If you're 19 or 20 then you probably don't have the maturity or insight to have the right conversations to weed out the incompatible. If your bride to be is a 30 year old virgin then she's most likely not that into sex anyway, but you'd have to have the presence of mind to figure that out.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I know this doesn't sound good, but perhaps you should have taken her up on her offer to do what you want. Sometimes women need to have the decision making taken away from them. She might secretly want to give you oral for example, but good girls don't so she just can't bring herself there. But if you "make" her do it then she's absolve of the responsibility for doing it.
> 
> Same thing with this weekend and how she was into the fantasy, then hinted she was up for sex again but told you not to do the fantasy thing again. Personally I would have taken her to bed and ignored her objections and go right back to the fantasy. Forget words and arguments. Show her by your actions that that part is under your control.
> 
> She needs a leader. And an excuse / plausible deniability.


I've thought about that as a possibility. I've tried a few times to be dominant with her in bed and it hasn't gone well at all. There have been a few times when she's grudgingly let me go down on her, but it's not particularly fun because she's pushing me away and closing her legs the entire time. (This is true even though on the few occasions she's gone along with it it was obviously doing the trick for her.)

I also tried telling her what to do before, even using a nominal amount of "force" to try to get her to comply. Seeing not even a ray of hope that she was secretly enjoying it or going to comply I gave up. I've tried suggesting some dominance play -- I'd be up for either side -- but she rejected it with "we're married, we are supposed to love each other, not hurt each other." I'm reminded now of the the Louis CK bit about the girl he was dating that secretly wanted him to "rape" her. I'm not going to physically force her when she's saying no in the hopes that she secretly wants me to physically overcome her. That has a reasonably good chance of ending poorly, lol.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> How old were you when you married? I think virgin marriages are a real challenge and it really comes down to the luck of the draw. If you're 19 or 20 then you probably don't have the maturity or insight to have the right conversations to weed out the incompatible. If your bride to be is a 30 year old virgin then she's most likely not that into sex anyway, but you'd have to have the presence of mind to figure that out.


Mid-20s. I have a lot of internal conflict about remaining a virgin until marriage at this point, honestly. I'm still a religious person, but I really don't know that I could push "waiting until marriage" on my kids at this point. There are lots of downsides to premarital sex, of course, but I really think my wife and I would both be happier now if we'd each married someone more sexually compatible. I try to have faith, but it's really hard when dealing with a lousy sex life, especially when we're both really committed to staying married for life.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Did you play the Louis CK clip for her?

Although you are a Christian, you are realistic about human behavior while your wife has a different vision of sexual morality.

It seems to me that you don't care what sort of sex you have, what is missing is passion. You would be very happy if your kissed deeply and without reserve.

Your wife never says anything like "just fvck me!" or "don't stop!". 

There are many sexless threads on TAM. The other day one guy said that the role play in his sex life was that he sat up and begged like dog and his wife rolled over and played dead.

Part of the tragedy is that in a few years time your wife might become a sex manic. She might not, but you are not willing to stick around to find out.

A painful question: do you respect your wife's intelligence? Does she seem almost wilfully dull for ignoring sexual pleasure? Does she enjoy eating? Physical exercise?

Is she overweight?


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## CASE_Sensitive (Jul 22, 2013)

Does she orgasm when you actually do have sex?


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

There is a Christian website that I've seen posted here several times, but I can't remember the name of it. Perhaps someone else will post the web address. She needs to read it - pronto!!


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Did you play the Louis CK clip for her?
> 
> *She'd be very offended by it. Any jokes about sex are offensive to her.*
> 
> ...


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

CASE_Sensitive said:


> Does she orgasm when you actually do have sex?


When she wants to, which is about half the time. When she gets into the above mentioned fantasy it's pretty much every time, though there have been a few times when guilt feelings set in prematurely and she basically shut down and told me just to finish. That's always great.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I have to wonder, is she just not that into you? What kind of shape are you in? How tall are you?


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I have to wonder, is she just not that into you? What kind of shape are you in? How tall are you?


I'm in pretty good shape, though not as much as her. I'm not modeling in ads in GQ, but I'm reasonably attractive and not obese, though I could stand to lose ten pounds or so. I'm tall and have a white collar job and look pretty good in a suit, plus I have a good sense of style. She may not be overwhelmingly attracted to me for whatever reason, but it isn't because I've just let myself go.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Ahh, since you are not going to divorce there is a program for you. Read Bagdon's thread. Follow Machiavelli's advice.

Given your wife's relative lack of curiosity, which is due to her desire for moral order, rather than defect of intellect, you have the possibility of engaging her imagination. You have done it with one fantasy. So, it can be done.

Maybe you need alternative fantasies. Is there one involving a Christian girl who needs to ride reverse cowgirl hard so that the hero cannot see the evil seductress beckoning him?

One thing is clear: convincing and persuading are not sexy. You need to stimulate her through action.


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## seahorse (Apr 10, 2010)

Do you believe it's possible your wife just isn't into sex with you and now uses religious objections as cover? The stale description of your sex life provided in the 1st post gives me pause. Further, I find it quite incredible that she objects to toys, to "trashy" lingerie, to oral sex while simultaneously having consented -- (even temporarily) -- to fantasies of the mind involving a 3rd party.

-seahorse


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

You find yourself in the gray zone, many of us here do. You are getting sex and are grateful to be getting sex and yet it lacks the passion you need and hoped for.

This is what I think - it doesn't matter if you had as before marriage or not. Many people here had smoking sex lives before they got married that died on the vine. There is not that strong a correlation that I can see between waiting till marriage/not waiting and having great sex.

It doesn't matter so much if she's having orgasms either - as far as libido goes. There are women here that get off every time but rarely want sex. Other women have difficulty getting off but want sex all the time.

One thing I have seen with some success - if your wife were exposed to peers who had good sex lives and enjoyed sex that might help change her mind. Women talking about sex and wanting sex and complimenting their husbands skill - if these women were like her, socially, economically, life circumstances it might help.

One of my friends was repressed like that. Her husband was somehow able to get her to watch Sex and the City with him weekly and this really changed how she felt about sex. 

In my close circle of friends I saw one woman go from sexless marriage to lingerie and vibrators due to women dishing about sex and making it sound desirable and fun. 

I get where you are coming from in mentioning affairs and such - but what you want is for her to desire you and desire sex. Not feeling pressured to put on a show for you because if she doesn't you will leave. 

And I wouldn't mention that particular fantasy again if she asked you not to. You interpret her being aroused by it but she might not actually be. We had a poster recently who thought his wife orgasmed by anal/manual when really she entirely hated it and if anything it was getting in the way of her orgasm.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

It would be one thing if the wife was talking about the fantasy and getting hot about it.

That's not the case here. The husband is talking about the fantasy and the wife is saying to never bring it up again. Does he want to get laid or does he want to get punched in the face.

I'm not saying she is or isn't turned on by it, I don't know her. Me, that would not fly. My h talking about seeing another man having sex with me, a cuckold, would emasculate him in my opinion.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

it sounds like her upbringing was very religious and strict. Yet the bible talks all the time about sex. Assuming your religion includes the bible, can you find sexual references in the bible for discussion with her? Can you get a pastor or rabbi to mediate with the two of you?

You also do not mention your past culture, there are many parts of the world where sex is....just a rare wifely duty...many Asian countries for instance. Is she from there?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The cuckold fantasy may or may not be dangerous. One reason she doesn't like it may be because it makes her desire other men more and more.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I respect other peoples religions and beliefs...

However....here is yet another example of a couple who abstained from full pre-marital sex and who are now having these problems. Problems that could so easily lead to a divorce.

Although I am a believer I am not religious....One thing is sure though; it is our birthright to be happy and it is our duty to God (or Allah or...) to make the most of the life he has given us.

Some people are simply not compatible with their partners when it comes to sex - not the be all and end all, but still very important.

Had you lived together before marriage as 'husband' and 'wife' perhaps you would have realised that you were not compatible and gone your separate ways to find someone who was.

Sadly you can't re-write history but you CAN change the future.

You and your wife have the right to be happy...if that happiness lies with other spouses then divorce. 
Divorced but happy and contented people make far better parents than ones that stay in a marriage but are miserable.

But I know its not that easy. I 'suffer' because I want my children around me all the time....when they leave home, so will I.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

seahorse said:


> Do you believe it's possible your wife just isn't into sex with you and now uses religious objections as cover? The stale description of your sex life provided in the 1st post gives me pause. Further, I find it quite incredible that she objects to toys, to "trashy" lingerie, to oral sex while simultaneously having consented -- (even temporarily) -- to fantasies of the mind involving a 3rd party.
> 
> -seahorse


I don't think that's the problem because she's always been really reserved in bed, even when we were newlyweds. Also, she's aware that I'm really frustrated about our terrible sex life and she's really upset about it. I have no question in my mind that she really, really wants me to be satisfied, she just can't or won't allow herself to be open enough about sex for it to happen. 

As to the fantasy, she isn't really open to that kind of fantasy. I discovered it fortuitously because of an actual incident several years ago when a friend of ours became really awkward with her at a pool party because she looked good in her bikini. (Incidentally, she won't wear a two piece suit anymore even though she still looks great in it  )He wasn't hitting on her or anything, but I teased her about it a little later and even though she was pretty oblivious to it at the time, when I pointed it out she did have to acknowledge that it's what had happened. A few nights later I had a pretty erotic dream about her and some nondescript guy. I had never had that kind of dream but it was pretty hot to me so the next night I started telling her about it, with very little detail at first. It became clear that she was enjoying hearing it (though she wouldn't admit it) so I started embellishing it with details I was making up. Had some really good sex that night, but a few days later she raked me over the coals for thinking something like that was exciting. Since then, there has been a love/hate relationship with that type of fantasy. If I can figure out how to work it in in bed we usually have pretty good sex (all the rules notwithstanding) and I can tell that she's really, really aroused; but she'll always feel guilty either the next day or sometimes in the midst of things, causing her to suddenly clam up.

What this tells me is that she's capable physically of enjoying passionate sex, she is just mentally unwilling to allow herself to do anything she thinks is unladylike or improper somehow. I'd be happy to explore any other fantasies she might like, but she's adamant she has no fantasies and even when fantasizing as above, it's always me that has to provide details, though when she's "into" it she might play along a bit or ask me for more details.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

MissScarlett said:


> You find yourself in the gray zone, many of us here do. You are getting sex and are grateful to be getting sex and yet it lacks the passion you need and hoped for.
> 
> This is what I think - it doesn't matter if you had as before marriage or not. Many people here had smoking sex lives before they got married that died on the vine. There is not that strong a correlation that I can see between waiting till marriage/not waiting and having great sex.
> 
> ...


She would never in a million years watch Sex in the City or any other show she thinks is immoral. Before we had kids she wasn't so strict about what she'd watch, but now she won't even watch R rated movies even after the kids are in bed.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

I think you should make an appointment for the two of you to see a sex therapist. There, she will learn that these things you desire are perfectly "normal" in a marriage. There is nothing perverted or "dirty" about wanting to spice up your sex life and wanting a partner who is not inhibited. She needs to learn that there is so much more to married sex than just the vanilla version.

Perhaps hearing it from a professional will make her realize she needs to step up her game or she is possibly going to lose you.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

A living, breathing functional intelligent adult cannot be that unaware of human sexuality and that it is considered normal to desire your committed significant other sexually. I'm sorry but your wife's lack of response and apparent lack of sexual awareness is so 500 years ago. This is the 21st century, she isn't living under a rock.

There's more to this IMHO


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Ask your wife to visit ChristianNymphos.Org. I've seen the website recommended on this board several times.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I know this doesn't sound good, but perhaps you should have taken her up on her offer to do what you want. Sometimes women need to have the decision making taken away from them. She might secretly want to give you oral for example, but good girls don't so she just can't bring herself there. But if you "make" her do it then she's absolve of the responsibility for doing it.
> 
> Same thing with this weekend and how she was into the fantasy, then hinted she was up for sex again but told you not to do the fantasy thing again. Personally I would have taken her to bed and ignored her objections and go right back to the fantasy. Forget words and arguments. Show her by your actions that that part is under your control.
> 
> She needs a leader. And an excuse / plausible deniability.


You have to assume this above is all true in order to fix your problem. You have to live as if this is true. And it is. And you proved it by uncorking her fantasy.

What I mean is this. The way you are living now is your wife will say "I'm just not sexual. You are a pervert." So you buy into her "agenda" of marriage. You then react to it. You then try to figure out ways around the walls she put up. Little side doors, end arounds, tiptoes.

What you need to do is completely reject her point of view in a non nasty way. Within yourself embrace the positive view that marriages are sexual unions. Embrace that your religion wants her to be sexual with you and you to be sexual with her. Embrace that she is sexual but needs to protect herself because of the above. That all the resistance and pretending she doesn't like it are an act. That the real her is the sexual her. 

Here's an example. You find this fantasy and she likes it. You like it. A few days later she starts saying something negative about it. Your current reaction is to get flustered and start taking to her about it and convincing her of something. 

But, you know what you see. This is why you become flustered and confused. But instead of taking her "protestations" at face value, take them as a "test". She is testing you to see if you become flustered and weak. To see if her sexual power can still be used to assert herself over you. And you are failing. What you have to do is laugh it off. She starts something negative you say "Nice try honey", and don't engage.

All along those lines.. And whatever you do, do not cheat. But divorce is a reasonable thing to have on the table.


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

With her upbringing, it seems that your wife has it ingrained in her mind that good Christian women shouldn't enjoy sex, that it is sinful. Here is an interesting blog post debunking some of the myths about sex for Christian married couples. Maybe you could print it out and discuss it with her. It could lead to a suggestion on counseling that could help to undo some of her notions that sex is sinful. Points #2 and 3 are especially interesting in her case.

Making Home: Sex in a Christian Marriage

I especially like this line from the post referring to an earlier analogy of sex within a married couple is like playing in the backyard allowing the two to do all they want and feeling safe and protected within the fenced yard. "God has given us a backyard that's more fun than Six Flags- full of delight, surprises, and thrills- and He's given us a lifetime pass. Why not explore the whole park, ya know what I'm saying?"


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## Abc123wife (Sep 18, 2013)

karole said:


> Ask your wife to visit ChristianNymphos.Org. I've seen the website recommended on this board several times.


Ooh, that looks like the perfect site to ask his wife to explore!

Red Hare, do you think she would be willing to explore this site? This question among the FAQs seems like a good place to start: Q&A: Correcting Wrong Thinking About Sex | Christian Nymphos


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

MissScarlett said:


> It would be one thing if the wife was talking about the fantasy and getting hot about it.
> 
> That's not the case here. The husband is talking about the fantasy and the wife is saying to never bring it up again. Does he want to get laid or does he want to get punched in the face.
> 
> I'm not saying she is or isn't turned on by it, I don't know her. Me, that would not fly. My h talking about seeing another man having sex with me, a cuckold, would emasculate him in my opinion.


You're missing my point. I could take or leave that particular fantasy, as well as just about any other. The only reason I bring it up is because it's the only thing that has successfully helped her set aside, however briefly, her prudishness in bed. If she got off by me dressing up as a race car driver I'd be just as happy with it. My preference would be to talk openly about sex, be open to things, and if we want to fantasize, fantasize about whatever floats our boat at the time. The problem is, she denies having any other fantasies and I haven't fortuitously discovered any as in that case. Her default switch is set to prudishness and I'd be happy to do anything that might move it to a better setting. As it is, and after over a decade of marriage, that's the only thing that's ever worked.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

murphy5 said:


> it sounds like her upbringing was very religious and strict. Yet the bible talks all the time about sex. Assuming your religion includes the bible, can you find sexual references in the bible for discussion with her? Can you get a pastor or rabbi to mediate with the two of you?
> 
> You also do not mention your past culture, there are many parts of the world where sex is....just a rare wifely duty...many Asian countries for instance. Is she from there?


She's not of Asian descent, but she definitely views sex as a wifely duty. She really wants me to be satisfied because she feels that's part of being a good wife. I appreciate that she feels that way, but it's not at all fulfilling to me for her to make absolutely certain that she's only "willing" to have sex because of the duty and that she doesn't want sex (because women don't like sex.)

I've pointed out plenty of times that the bible doesn't prohibit married couples from doing any of the things on her "no" list. Of course, the bible doesn't say to do those things either. In her mind, as long as she's "willing" to lie there while I "put my penis inside her" she's doing what the bible tells her to do.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

Abc123wife said:


> With her upbringing, it seems that your wife has it ingrained in her mind that good Christian women shouldn't enjoy sex, that it is sinful. Here is an interesting blog post debunking some of the myths about sex for Christian married couples. Maybe you could print it out and discuss it with her. It could lead to a suggestion on counseling that could help to undo some of her notions that sex is sinful. Points #2 and 3 are especially interesting in her case.
> 
> Making Home: Sex in a Christian Marriage
> 
> I especially like this line from the post referring to an earlier analogy of sex within a married couple is like playing in the backyard allowing the two to do all they want and feeling safe and protected within the fenced yard. "God has given us a backyard that's more fun than Six Flags- full of delight, surprises, and thrills- and He's given us a lifetime pass. Why not explore the whole park, ya know what I'm saying?"


Thanks, that's a good link


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

Abc123wife said:


> Ooh, that looks like the perfect site to ask his wife to explore!
> 
> Red Hare, do you think she would be willing to explore this site? This question among the FAQs seems like a good place to start: Q&A: Correcting Wrong Thinking About Sex | Christian Nymphos


I doubt she will, but it's definitely worth a shot. I've bought her plenty of books about sex over the years. The ones that aren't "Christian" she's always been offended by and throws out. The ones that are "bible-based" usually have the effect of reinforcing her beliefs because she picks and chooses what she agrees with. For example, nearly all of them will say that neither spouse should force the other to do something he or she doesn't want to do. I agree with this, for the most part, but that advice is incomplete because it doesn't instruct spouses to work to be open to one another. What she takes from it is this: "see, I don't like ________ so you shouldn't try to get me to do it." I'd probably be ok if that blank included one or two things, but it's really frustrating when nearly anything besides "normal sex" fits in the blank. So those books generally validate her worldview that I should be thrilled that she's willing to have sex and that I should never expect her to do anything else.

That site looks promising though and seems to have more of an emphasis on actually being open to experimenting in bed. Maybe I can get her to take a look at it.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I would avoid telling your wife to look at any websites.
It nearly always backfires. The wife will view it as you her husband thinks she is broken and you want her to fix herself.

Your problem is complicated to fix. I speak from experience. And it takes a while. And most of the change has to occur within you. You will absolutely fail if you look at this as she is wrong, I am right, she needs to fix herself. You have to look at it as what steps can I take to improve the situation. And there are many steps you can take which will either improve the situation or give you alot of understanding about women and marriage and you will gain confidence from that.

You have to come at this problem from two sides:
-- You have to make her feel safe enough to want to have sex with you.
-- You have to make her feel unsafe if she does not have (good) sex with you.

You have seen what making her feel unsafe does. It does work. But it cannot be the only thing you do. And what I mean in making her feel safe is to act masculine, attractive, and confident.

What about the fantasy. Does this make you look attractive, masculine and confident? In some ways it can. But it can backfire. It's confident to show security in engaging in this fantasy that you are not jealous, worried etc. IT's confident to speak the fantasy without embarrassment. Where you can run into problems is if you ever portray that you are trying to turn her on to use her for your personal benefit. That is a real possibility.

You have to act attractively as follows (making her feel safe):
-- Reject her definition of a sexual marriage whenever it is expressed. Do it nicely and not out of fear. But never ever let these ideas stand. Never.
-- Meet her non sexual emotional needs (i.e. you can read the Five Love Languages or His Needs, Her Needs) to get a starting point.
-- Be a great father, be fun, and make her life as fun and rewarding as possible. 
-- Do things that your wife wants you to do with a positive attitude. This is really helpful in breaking down her idea of marital sex. Let me give you an example. Let's say your wife likes if you help with housework. Do the house work the way you want her to have sex with you. Meaning, do it with enthusiasm, and not in such a way that you are directly trying to please her or get something from her. Then you can speak about it in the future.... I.e. "Wife, if you asked me to change a light bulb, and I complained about having to change a light bulb but utlimately changed the light bulb... I would think "Well I did what she asked, she would be happy".... But in reality you would not be happy with me at all... So "how" you do something is just as important as "what" you do...It's like that for me with sex".

Again, this is not a quick fix. You have to divest herself of her defintion of marriage and marital sex and replace it with yours. This does two things. It helps change her thought process, and it is an opportunity for you to display confidence.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You and your wife have very different values. You are both Christians but you read different parts of the Bible when it comes to the meaning of life. For your wife sex is morality test. Her task is make it as small as possible, for to her sexual pleasure competes with devotion to whatever she feels a Christian woman should be devoted.

You, on the other hand, believe that sexual pleasure was given to man by God and Jesus did not buy the old Testament stuff.

The question is why does your wife cling to her old fashioned view. Was she a victim of CSM?

Was she influenced by some church services? Her mother?

You should tell her that letting go to you and her own pleasure in sex will not offend God. No, don't talk about it anymore. Talking is not doing.

There is a bad girl in her waiting to get out. But how?


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

Has she or you read Real Marriage? Good book. Covers sex and other parts of marriage from a biblical perspective. There are videos on YouTube, but the book goes into more detail.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## GIM003 (Feb 5, 2014)

Red Hare said:


> In her mind, I'm the one that's wrong and she views sex the way that other "normal" women do. The idea that any women actually enjoy oral sex, for example, is a porn myth that I got from watching porn


Has your wife ever explained to you where she got her definition of "normal" from? 

14 years of marriage is not something to walk away from lightly. If you are going to try to keep working on your relationship then you may want to explore with your wife where her views on "normal" come from. "Normal" is a very subjective word-- try not to use it and try to get your wife to express her views on sex without using it. She should not be making moral judgments on you because of your wish for a more fulfilling sex life.

Personally, I prefer to think of these things in terms of what makes each of you happy and what can strengthen your relationship. God wants us all to be happy. Offer up different perspectives on typical behaviors of happily married couples.

Unfortunately, I suspect that a new vocabulary is not a quick solution to your problems in this aspect of your relationship. However, it might help each of you gain a better understandign of the other. The real problem is that she has a lower sex drive than you . This puts you in the same boat as a lot of us


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> I think you should make an appointment for the two of you to see a sex therapist. There, she will learn that these things you desire are perfectly "normal" in a marriage. There is nothing perverted or "dirty" about wanting to spice up your sex life and wanting a partner who is not inhibited. She needs to learn that there is so much more to married sex than just the vanilla version.
> 
> Perhaps hearing it from a professional will make her realize she needs to step up her game or she is possibly going to lose you.


I agree at this point you have really backed yourself into a corner. You got married with no sex prior and found out you weren't compatible sexually.....hard to undo this and if she isn't worried that you won't divorce her she has NO motivation to change at all. So perhaps the above advice will help you. If she struggles with going maybe tell her that if you knew then what you know now you wouldn't have married her to emphasis how unhappy you are. I don't mean to say that in cruel way either just to illustrate that while this isn't a big deal to her it is huge to you. 

If all else fails then just try and take some solace in your religious beliefs... That may help


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Another good book is "Sheet Music" by Kevin Leman.


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## Busted Knuckle (Nov 6, 2013)

Red Hare there is a lot of good advise here in this thread already and here is a little more - married 24+ yrs to the same girl, kids, jobs, house, pets you name it. We are both Christians, we certainly grew up with different home lives and backgrounds. We've certainly had some great times but also some really rough times - with a time both of us considering divorce we only co existed in the same house and put on a front for everyone else - I committed to call a christian counselor and make the appointment I told her I'd go alone if needed but this is the final straw it either helps us get back together or helps us put an end to it - that was about 5 yrs ago - today we're better than ever. it wasn't just the counselor, it was Gods plan. Together we reignited passions we had when we had first met, learned to look at each other a completely different way and again grew closer together - 

OK enough about us, you want to know how to get more action - well it just aint that simple and no instant change this or that and she'll be your porn star - (but she can be and you can be hers.)

here are a few things we've learned: 
in no particular order........
don't be above getting help - a professional christian counselor, marriage mentor from church, etc 
be a couple not opponents 
put the problem - whatever it is in front of both you - not between you 
listen to her - and repeat what she said to you so you fully understand what she said and so she can hear it back and correct the thought if needed - men and women hear and speak a different language 
have a family meeting either weekly or monthly to go over the calender so mom and dad are on the same page 
be on the same page regarding raising the kids, discipline etc
ensure she knows you love her - by telling her so - often.

if your a slob, clean up your act. be proud of who you are and what you have - including your wife. 

anticipate her distractions: reduce or take them away, example: wash the dishes, laundry , divide and conquer and get the kids involved too
example:does your bed squeak - she may be concerned about it and she may think it will wake the kids or whatever - (I performed a bed silencing treatment to our bed, I identified any noise it made and eliminated it using tape, foam, a pillow between the headboard and wall, etc we could both jump on it, at it, or off of it and the bed was SILENT) 

ask about or anticipate other things to be done so she doesn't have the distraction of thinking about them when alone with me / you. 

we've read several books - 2 that stand out, helped us and we have shared with others "For Men Only" and "For Women Only" by Shaunti Feldhahn, amazon $9 they're easy to read and fun too. She'll learn somethings about you and you'll learn somethings about her.

have a mandatory date night once a week just her and you, no kids. We typically go out to dinner, maybe catch a movie, shop @ home depot whatever but the cell phones stay in the car or @ home. 

Pray - together and alone



The christian marriage bed can be the wildest sloppiest hottest place on earth. God created sex, He gave us the equipment to enjoy sex not just to reproduce. Good Luck and God Bless 
BKG


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Excellent thread*

Red,
A couple observations:
- You and your wife clearly love and desire to please each other
- Her views of sex are deeply ingrained and nothing that you tell her will change them

If you could find a female Christian (I'm just assuming based on statistics and your writing style and screen name) therapist who can really connect with your wife, you might have a shot at getting her to let go of those heavy inhibitions. 

The best approach to this is for you to create a short list of potential therapists and have one session yourself with each one. During that session you evaluate them for fit. 

Ideally you'll find a happily married therapist with a healthy view of marital sexuality. She can gently get your W to wrap head around the idea that: A healthy adventurous sex life strengthens the marital bond and as such as completely in line with a good Christian marriage. 




P


Red Hare said:


> I don't think that's the problem because she's always been really reserved in bed, even when we were newlyweds. Also, she's aware that I'm really frustrated about our terrible sex life and she's really upset about it. I have no question in my mind that she really, really wants me to be satisfied, she just can't or won't allow herself to be open enough about sex for it to happen.
> 
> As to the fantasy, she isn't really open to that kind of fantasy. I discovered it fortuitously because of an actual incident several years ago when a friend of ours became really awkward with her at a pool party because she looked good in her bikini. (Incidentally, she won't wear a two piece suit anymore even though she still looks great in it  )He wasn't hitting on her or anything, but I teased her about it a little later and even though she was pretty oblivious to it at the time, when I pointed it out she did have to acknowledge that it's what had happened. A few nights later I had a pretty erotic dream about her and some nondescript guy. I had never had that kind of dream but it was pretty hot to me so the next night I started telling her about it, with very little detail at first. It became clear that she was enjoying hearing it (though she wouldn't admit it) so I started embellishing it with details I was making up. Had some really good sex that night, but a few days later she raked me over the coals for thinking something like that was exciting. Since then, there has been a love/hate relationship with that type of fantasy. If I can figure out how to work it in in bed we usually have pretty good sex (all the rules notwithstanding) and I can tell that she's really, really aroused; but she'll always feel guilty either the next day or sometimes in the midst of things, causing her to suddenly clam up.
> 
> What this tells me is that she's capable physically of enjoying passionate sex, she is just mentally unwilling to allow herself to do anything she thinks is unladylike or improper somehow. I'd be happy to explore any other fantasies she might like, but she's adamant she has no fantasies and even when fantasizing as above, it's always me that has to provide details, though when she's "into" it she might play along a bit or ask me for more details.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

*Re: Excellent thread*



MEM11363 said:


> Red,
> A couple observations:
> - You and your wife clearly love and desire to please each other
> - Her views of sex are deeply ingrained and nothing that you tell her will change them
> ...


Good advice. I'd say in addition that religion can be either a positive or a negative here. Be careful about the flavor of Christianity you turn to for help. 

Maybe try finding an online bible study on Song of Solomon and go over it together. Plenty of sex going on in the bible, it's not all rules and regs.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The best way to reject her definition of sex is to stick to a small set of positive themes. You don't debate her you simply keep hitting those themes in short, simple declarative statements:
- The sharing of fantasies is an act of true intimacy
- It's simultaneously an act of courage and trust
- And the expression of those fantasies, when it creates a more intense, physical response strengthens the physical bond and in the process the marital bond between you

The fantasies themselves, when acted out privately between two spouses, are neither good nor bad. But their side effects:
- deepening trust
- strengthening bonds

Are universally positive. 




Hicks said:


> I would avoid telling your wife to look at any websites.
> It nearly always backfires. The wife will view it as you her husband thinks she is broken and you want her to fix herself.
> 
> Your problem is complicated to fix. I speak from experience. And it takes a while. And most of the change has to occur within you. You will absolutely fail if you look at this as she is wrong, I am right, she needs to fix herself. You have to look at it as what steps can I take to improve the situation. And there are many steps you can take which will either improve the situation or give you alot of understanding about women and marriage and you will gain confidence from that.
> ...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> The fantasies themselves, when acted out privately between two spouses, are neither good nor bad. But their side effects:
> - deepening trust
> - strengthening bonds
> 
> Are universally positive.


I don't think this is true for the wife's fantasy, from a Christian perspective.

The "letter of the law" is that you are supposed to be faithful to your spouse in thought as well as in action. Fantasizing about sex with another person is considered sinful. 

In this case, given her Christian beliefs, I would recommend he not pursue this fantasy. Clearly she sees it as wrong in her belief system. And this (unlike the thoughts about oral sex, toys, bondage, etc. being wrong) is biblically supported.

_"but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."_ Matthew 5:28

The problem I see is that, given the sinful nature, she will definitely continue to feel guilty about this, and that guilt may impede her sex drive further. A complicating factor is that she may come to resent him (rightly or wrongly) for being complicit or even encouraging such activity.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

OP,

I see the recommendation that your wife check out the Christian Nymphos website. I am going to further recommend that you both check out www.themarriagebed.com. There is a section titled "The Generous Wife" for her to read and some forums where fellow Christians can offer better perspective on what is allowed and why, as well as ways to overcome her inhibitions.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree at this point you have really backed yourself into a corner. You got married with no sex prior and found out you weren't compatible sexually.....hard to undo this and if she isn't worried that you won't divorce her she has NO motivation to change at all. So perhaps the above advice will help you. If she struggles with going maybe tell her that if you knew then what you know now you wouldn't have married her to emphasis how unhappy you are. I don't mean to say that in cruel way either just to illustrate that while this isn't a big deal to her it is huge to you.


I agree with telling her this, as hard as it may be. I would add that since her Christian beliefs seem to be at the root of the problem, you need to discuss the problem on that level.

My personal approach would be that by going through the motions rather than being engaged in the act, she is not fulfilling her mandate to provide sex in a manner such that you are not tempted to sin (here, cheating, porn, etc.). Further, you feel even worse about this because you have explained your needs to her but she has not sought to make the changes necessary to make sex more than something she allows you to do to her.

Then, you note that you will support her in whatever she needs to do to fix her viewpoint on this, but she needs to be willing to put in the hard work (and it may be something she needs to work on the rest of her life to some extent). You now feel unequally yoked to her because of her actions and it's impacting the way you feel about her and the marriage.

Finally, don't let her guilt you about the sexual stuff you did before marriage. She was a big girl and did so willingly (I presume).


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## Template (Aug 2, 2011)

Your wife is a classic "good girl". She is denying her sexuality because she has the notion that "normal" wives do not enjoy sex, but rather tolerate it as a marital obligation.

I would recommend the website "To Love, Honor, and Vacuum". It is written by a Christian woman who is a wife and mother. She dispels the myth that sex is just a job a wife must do and espouses a close, intimate relationship that benefits each party and in turn, strengthens the marriage. This particular post:

http://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2012/02/29-days-to-great-sex-day-1-the-act-of-marriage/

is the first of 29 posts which discuss changing the wife's attitude towards marital sex. It is a 29 day program that addresses the arguments your wife has used to stall your sex life. Since it is written from a Christian perspective and by a wife, perhaps your wife would be more accepting. This author has also written 31 days to a great sex life and a book, "The Good Girl's Guide to Great Sex". The 29 day program is free on the website, the 31 day program and book can be purchased through the website.

If your wife truly wants to make you happy, embracing the ideas in these writings could give her the "out" to try new things without feeling guilty, afraid, ****ty, etc.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

I see this differently. 

Your wife is obviously highly conflicted. On one hand she has no objections to you physically. I mean she has sex right? On the other hand she has a HUGE anti-**** shield. 

When she was hinting at sex, and told you not to bring the fantasy in to play... You should have banged her like a barn door in a wind storm. And pushed the fantasy again. 

I once had a girl adamantly tell me "we're not going to do that are we?" When in reality she didn't want to admit to liking it for fear of appearing ****ty. Once I figured that out, is just ignore her protestations and do it anyway. She would see stars and after "blame" me for her being so dirty. But she still did it every time. 

She's obviously willing to be submissive to you. Learn how to push through this anti-**** defense. In fact, I'd embrace it. Let her have her protests. Then do what you want. Don't explain to her, that only justifies her ASD. 

There's a subtle art to it. Don't become an alpha pig overnight. Start with small things like going down on her. Tell her "this is what I want as your husband". And push through it. Keep pushing those boundaries. Jujitsu her ASD, use it to your advantage.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Template is correct - your wife suffers from a form of Good Girl Syndrome - or in other words Good Girls Don't enjoy sex! She has developed a faulty thinking pattern concerning sex and being a Good Christian Woman. 

I was very much like your wife for over 30 years of my marriage. I don't know why my husband stuck it out for so long - probably mostly for the kids - but I am glad he did. It took me going through a phase of questioning all of my religious views for me to realize just how faulty my views were about sex. It's been over 8 years ago since I had my "faith" crisis and what I deem my sexual awakening period. Our sexual life now is frequent, varied, and amazing and our marriage is great! I just wish I had not wasted 30 precious years of my marriage with my stupid thinking patterns about sex. 

I see some really good things in your marriage that make me think you have a good chance of things improving in your marriage.

1. Your wife is able to have orgasms and does respond to some sexual fantasy (even though she tries hard not too). This is a good sign because it tells me deep down she likes sex and that her body does respond. She is repressing her desires for sex because she believes that she has to be a righteous woman in the eyes of God. You just have to help her figure out how to unleash and embrace her true God given sexuality and still be righteous. 

2. Your wife wants to please you and is upset that you are not happy. She has stated she is willing to do what you want her to do. Use this to your advantage - but instead of telling her what you want her to do in bed - tell her that you simply want her to work with you in exploring what really is acceptable to God concerning sex in marriage with an open mind and open, prayerful heart. Affirm that you admire her devotion to God and her desire to do what she believes God wants her to do and that you don't want her to do ANYTHING that she feels is wrong. But you do want her to explore the possibility that maybe some of the things she thinks is wrong is not really wrong but just faulty ideals she has picked up for whatever reasons. 

3. She takes care of herself physically and keeps herself attractive. This is a good sign because and relates both to #1 and #2. 

Now - and this is important - you have to understand that while you can help influence her to want to change - you can not change her - she has to do it herself. What you can do is work on yourself though. With that in mind - here is my advice to you!

1. Be a good Christian husband and father! Since her religion is important to her - and you said it was to you too. She needs to see that it is important to you! Be a leader in your home, especially as far as your religious values are concerned. Be the one to institute prayers and scripture study and attending church. Talk to your wife about your belief and faith in God. Don't watch porn or other destructive and offensive things to her. When she sees you are standing tall in your religious beliefs - she will be more willing to listen to your ideals on what is appropriate in marriage concerning sex without fearing that you are just succumbing to the worldly view.

2. Whatever you do - do not have an affair. I may be mistaken, but from a few things you said - it sounds like you may have someone pursuing you right now and you are tempted to go for it. Please stay strong! An affair, while it may give you some temporary excitement - is NOT the answer! I know you already know that - but it has to be said again. Remove yourself from any temptations - avoid anyone that may express interest in an affair with you like they have the plague. 

3. Try and find some good women role models in your religion who have a healthy attitude about sex and are comfortable with their sexuality and arrange for them to talk to her if she is willing. Don't push it, but instead suggest it - but it has to be her choice.

4. As I said before - use the fact that she has stated she is willing to do things to please you - and follow the advice to ask her to read and discuss some things with you with an open mind and open prayerful heart. Then share some of the resources that you have been given with her and discuss your feelings with her about them. Again - do not force this upon her. She has to be willing to do this on her own -or it will not help her at all. 

5. Lastly - I strongly urge you to seek professional help from a sex therapist. Now is the time to suggest this option to her. She knows you are unhappy and seems to be willing to work on things. I think it was Mem that gave some very good advice on how to find one. Find one that will work within your religious framework. This is important so that your wife will not feel the therapist is trying to go against her religion. A therapist is needed in my mind, because Good Girl Syndrome runs deep - and it often takes a professional to really overcome it. It was something I had to do which helped me identify and overcome my own faulty thinking patterns - and then to move forward with understanding and embracing my God given and God approved sexuality and replace the bad thoughts with good thinking patterns. Even if she won't go with you - I still encourage you to pursue this as a sex therapist will help you to either stay in the marriage and make it work as it is - or make the decision that you need to get out in order to be happy! 

I also like Hicks advice to you! And all of the resources you have been given are excellent ones - ones that were also helpful to me. 

Here are a couple more sites to check out:
Start Here

Here is a good description of the Good Girl syndrome. The author of this site has written a good book on dealing with Good Girl Syndrome - "And they were not Ashamed" . While it has many good ideals and suggestions for all Christians - it is written more so for those in the Mormon religion and quotes a lot from their scriptures and leaders. If your Mormon, I highly recommend this book. If you are not - her web site still has some very good stuff for you to look through that could be helpful to you. 
The Good Girl Syndrome | StrengtheningMarriage.com


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

I'm not a Christian, but would submit that the Bible is not nearly as prudish as some Christians make it out to be. 

From Canticles: (Song Of Solomon)


I have sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste. 2:3

My beloved is mine, and I am his: he feedeth among the lilies. 2:16

Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies. 7:2

I would cause thee to drink of spiced wine of the juice of my pomegranate. 8:2​


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

If she's that sexually repressed and gets turned on when you mention having another guy do her while you watch then something her ain't exactly right.

If she isn't willing to try another position other than either you on top or her and if your hand roams to an area that she deems out of bounds but gets her mojo working with the fantasy that you suggested with some other guy, then there's a whole lot here that doesn't meet the eye.

Honestly that kind of threw me for a loop that someone who is so up tight and conservative about sex yet gets turned on by something that would be considered out of bounds in most marriages makes me wonder.

I'm not trying to give you anything to worry about but it seems odd to go from one extreme to another.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

DTO,

Well said, I stand corrected. 

Further, I would say that your expertise and delivery on this topic are overall superb. 

The one piece of this that I do believe important is the assertion of the positive as opposed to pointing out the negative. 

The right counselor saying: when I join my husband in bed I do so with ..... because the bible says .....


QUOTE=DTO;8760978]I don't think this is true for the wife's fantasy, from a Christian perspective.

The "letter of the law" is that you are supposed to be faithful to your spouse in thought as well as in action. Fantasizing about sex with another person is considered sinful. 

In this case, given her Christian beliefs, I would recommend he not pursue this fantasy. Clearly she sees it as wrong in her belief system. And this (unlike the thoughts about oral sex, toys, bondage, etc. being wrong) is biblically supported.

_"but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."_ Matthew 5:28

The problem I see is that, given the sinful nature, she will definitely continue to feel guilty about this, and that guilt may impede her sex drive further. A complicating factor is that she may come to resent him (rightly or wrongly) for being complicit or even encouraging such activity.[/QUOTE]


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Template said:


> I would recommend the website "To Love, Honor, and Vacuum". It is written by a Christian woman who is a wife and mother. She dispels the myth that sex is just a job a wife must do and espouses a close, intimate relationship that benefits each party and in turn, strengthens the marriage. This particular post:
> 
> The Act of Marriage: How Making Love Brings Us Together
> 
> is the first of 29 posts which discuss changing the wife's attitude towards marital sex. It is a 29 day program that addresses the arguments your wife has used to stall your sex life. Since it is written from a Christian perspective and by a wife, perhaps your wife would be more accepting. This author has also written 31 days to a great sex life and a book, "The Good Girl's Guide to Great Sex". The 29 day program is free on the website, the 31 day program and book can be purchased through the website.


I'd definitely not send your wife to this site. The author has a history of promoting a perspective of "whatever the wife says, goes". It doesn't seem that way at first glance, but it's a common theme if you dig a little deeper. Your wife will only become more enamoured with her current views and then probably accuse you of abuse when you want her to do anything else. :/


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## Template (Aug 2, 2011)

MSP- Have you actually read the books or programs in To Love, Honor, and Obey? I have. The programs address EXACTLY the kind of thinking the OP's wife has, and dispels them. The purpose of the programs is to open up the wife's thinking so she is able to put aside her "good girl" notions and express herself sexually without holding back. It encourages her to believe that sex with her husband is good and beautiful. It talks about what husbands need and gives pointers on how to flirt (and it is OK to flirt) with their husband. It encourages the wife to initiate, appreciate her husband's body, spice things up, etc. The programs address one issue per day and give the couple some homework pertinent to that day's topic. Because it takes a while to work through the topics, there is potential for real change. This is a marriage driven site, not a whatever the wife says, goes site. If it were, the author would not be promoting the wife changing to meet the husband's needs, rather it would be the other way around.
OP, I hope YOU will at least look at the link, read through it and make a decision for yourself. Your wife is definitely the kind of wife the article was written for. She just needs to find her sexy side and feel OK for expressing it.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

DTO said:


> I don't think this is true for the wife's fantasy, from a Christian perspective.
> 
> The "letter of the law" is that you are supposed to be faithful to your spouse in thought as well as in action. Fantasizing about sex with another person is considered sinful.
> 
> ...


I disagree with your analysis. Lusting after someone means you're desiring that particular person in lieu of what you already have. In this case, we aren't even talking about a real person and the purpose of the role play fantasy is to increase the enjoyment of each other within marital sex. Role playing something that would be sinful isn't sinful, IMO. Some women have rape fantasies but that doesn't mean they actually want to be raped. I am very confident that there is zero % chance she's going to hook up with another guy, and even more confident I'd never be a part of making that fantasy a reality.

Again, though. That particular fantasy is symptomatic rather than the big issue. I could take or leave that fantasy and the only reason I've used to as a "go to" is that she's been responsive to it in the past. My problem isn't that she doesn't want to indulge that fantasy, it's that she doesn't want to indulge that fantasy and there is no other conceivable replacement because she's unwilling to be open about sex or try anything new. In my opinion, sex can be enhanced with fantasy, seduction and mystery. If it's rote, obligatory and predictable it's not particularly exciting.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

U.E. McGill said:


> I see this differently.
> 
> Your wife is obviously highly conflicted. On one hand she has no objections to you physically. I mean she has sex right? On the other hand she has a HUGE anti-**** shield.
> 
> ...


This is the best advice I've ever read... if you are talking about banging knot holes in barn doors. You'd be less hostile if you avoided them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Red Hare said:


> I'm in pretty good shape, though not as much as her. I'm not modeling in ads in GQ, but I'm reasonably attractive and not obese, though I could stand to lose ten pounds or so. I'm tall and have a white collar job and look pretty good in a suit, plus I have a good sense of style. She may not be overwhelmingly attracted to me for whatever reason, but it isn't because I've just let myself go.


Could the answer be that not all women are sex-freaks, and some are sort of prude with a lot of rules and boundaries no matter who the guy is?

And even then, they could be a prude like this for 99% of the population but could fall to temptation due to unspoken fantacies, you could be the most Alpha guy and she would still be a prude to?


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> This is the best advice I've ever read... if you are talking about banging knot holes in barn doors. You'd be less hostile if you avoided them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You may mock my words, I'm crude I know, but there's truth in everything I said.


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## khaleesiwife (May 9, 2014)

Finally made it to the end.. that was LONG. So basically you waited for marriage thinking it was for the same reasons that your Wife did. Well, I'm sorry. When a woman waits until marriage its almost a sure bet (I said ALMOST) that she's a prude or it really is a moral decision. I am Christian and so is my husband but when I think of sex with him I think of hair pulling, nails embedded in skin, lust, ripped sheets, uncontrollable moaning, panting, hot, sweaty, quivering, biting, orgasms.. those things. My Husband leaves no room for shy, vanilla sex. It is ALWAYS hot. That is because my husband is all Man. He is the very basic definition of a Man. He makes sex an Olympic event and it's SOOO GOOOOOOD! Your Wife needs to channel her inner seductress (Oh, it's there!) and care about pleasing you. Pasty, dry sex is a punishment for you. Your marriage bed is undefiled and you are free to do whatever you or your partner wants. As Husband you need to let your Wife know in no uncertain terms that you are not satisfied. You also need to convey to her what it is you NEED from Her. I say need because sex is very necessary in a marriage. It is the glue that holds the marriage together. Your glue is outdated and the expiration date expired. 

My advice is to communicate exactly what you need in a setting that's neutral, not the bedroom. Let her know your expectations and give her adequate time to adjust and conform to your NEEDS. If she just can't compromise to make you happy then I would stop having sex with her all together. Either way you are running the risk of having an affair or divorcing her down the road. Let her know that you NEED more. If she cares about you or the marriage she will at least try to accommodate you. Reward her attempts to satisfy you. Question: Is she having orgasms? Does she even like sex? I just can't see that given the description.. I only ask because my Husband is the O Master and that's why I come back each and every night. Sex is so satisfying with Him that even if I'm exhausted from the day, I'll ask if He will "pretty please give me one?" because it just puts a nice bow at the end of my day. If it wasn't so pleasing I wouldn't even bother with it.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

U.E. McGill said:


> You may mock my words, I'm crude I know, but there's truth in everything I said.


Pardon me for the appearance of mockery. That is another word for contempt, an attitude that I abhor. So please know that I was attempting to be a smart azz but not thoughtfully enough. I'm sorry.

I did find your post distasteful. I don't understand why you would suggest that a man have sex with a woman like she is a vj for him to pump. Would you want that for female relatives that you care about?

This man is talking about his wife, a woman he loves. He gives every appearance of caring about how she feels. Your post seems to advocate that he forget how she feels and just please himself. 

It had better be an exit move and he may have to deal with legal action if he hurts her. Unhappiness with a sexual relationship has viable and humane solutions. 

One of them is to leave and find a woman who consents to what you like.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Pardon me for the appearance of mockery. That is another word for contempt, an attitude that I abhor. So please know that I was attempting to be a smart azz but not thoughtfully enough. I'm sorry.
> 
> I did find your post distasteful. I don't understand why you would suggest that a man have sex with a woman like she is a vj for him to pump. Would you want that for female relatives that you care about?
> 
> ...



My wife and I talk about our kids and their sexuality. I would be so sad if my daughter acted like this mans wife. I mean that's what this threads about right?

I am an advocate of not living through your wife's feelings. I know too many men who are ruled by the "happy wife happy life" adage. The only problem with that is when you have a wife like this gentleman's who is conflicted. 

I will always tell any man "quit worrying about your wife's feelings. Acknowledge them, but make her deal with them. Their hers not yours!" 

So when a man tells me his wife was hinting around at sex, I tell him like a man, give her what she wants! Passionate, physical and yeah sometimes rough. 

I think this is 100% solvable in the confines of the current marriage. This isn't a LD/HD issue. His wife sounds like she loves him, and it really bothers her when she doesn't meet his needs. 

My advice is from a man to a man. It needs to be blunt and direct.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

U.E. McGill said:


> My wife and I talk about our kids and their sexuality. I would be so sad if my daughter acted like this mans wife. I mean that's what this threads about right?
> 
> I am an advocate of not living through your wife's feelings. I know too many men who are ruled by the "happy wife happy life" adage. The only problem with that is when you have a wife like this gentleman's who is conflicted.
> 
> ...


This sounds like a man Vs woman thing. Maybe you are right. 

I am assuming she follows the same advice? "quit worrying about your husbands feelings. Acknowledge them, but make him deal with them. Their his not yours!"


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> This sounds like a man Vs woman thing. Maybe you are right.
> 
> I am assuming she follows the same advice? "quit worrying about your husbands feelings. Acknowledge them, but make him deal with them. Their his not yours!"



Absolutely. I can provide for my wife's needs and vice versa but feelings are internal.


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## +Charlie+ (May 12, 2014)

I feel sorry for the OP..... just another example of how a religion can mess up two peoples lives..... hopefully your not indoctrinating your kids as you know what pain it caused yourself...

I hope it gets better for you.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

*Update*

After our big argument last week things mostly simmered down. We're busy with our kids lives and can generally cooperate. For the most part, we're good co-parents and roommates even when we're at odds about sex.

So tonight after the kids went to bed I was lying on the bed reading. She put on a sexy nightee and came to bed which is a sign she's "willing" to have sex. We talked about non-sexual things for a few minutes and she was hinting that she was ready for sex. I wasn't really in the mood though because of the ongoing unresolved issues in bed that we have. I finally told her that I don't want another big argument and that one was going to be inevitable because I would want to do something not on the acceptable list and we'd both get frustrated.

I tried my best to avoid pointing the finger at her but firmly told her that I am not satisfied with our sex life and that i won't be with so many things off limits. I also told her, as calmly and firmly as possible, that I really think our biggest problem is that in her heart of hearts she really thinks that sex is something that's bad and that women shouldn't enjoy it, but I also acknowledged that I really believe she wants me to be satisfied.

She said that I was wrong and that she wants to enjoy sex but that she doesn't feel loved if the sex involves dirty language, groping, sloppy kissing, etc.

I told her that I think sex should have some mystery and adventure and that when her off-limits list is so exhaustive I don't think that it does. I also told her I will never be satisfied in a sexual relationship that doesn't include oral sex and that while I don't care if we do everything conceivable, I want to feel like we can talk about sex openly and explore sex.

She complained that she didn't like a fantasy that involved some other real or imaginary person. I told her that that's only a symptom and that I can take that particular fantasy or leave it, but that I liked it because on the occasions she would indulge it she would be less self conscious and "into" the sex, which is a good thing. I also told her that in my opinion it isn't wrong anyway because she doesn't "really" want to be with another guy...it's all fantasy between the two of us, who ARE married. 

I told her I had asked her if she had any fantasies and she always insisted that she didn't. (Once she told me women don't fantasize about sex like men do.) She offered to fantasize about me being a cook or something and she was going to have sex with me, but of course, in the fantasy I was going to be her husband. I'm not sure I really understand that particular fantasy but, again, that's symptomatic rather than the root problem.

Finally she suggested that we talk to our church pastor. I told her no way. Just because he's a pastor doesn't mean he has any insight on sex. If the transmission in my car was slipping, I wouldn't bring it to the pastor for a repair. I offered to find a sex therapist if she wanted, but she didn't seem to like that idea either. I also told her that the ridiculous books by Christian pastors that her mother gave her to read about sex before we got married were probably a big part of our problem and I would never give our kids those stupid books.

I told her that the things I want to try aren't immoral. Oral sex is even alluded to in the bible itself! I told her I think the bible is pretty clear that we can do whatever we want between the two of us and that I feel really cheated that I don't get to do the things that other married men get to do.

Finally I told her that our terrible sex life was destroying our marriage. I like her. I think she's a great mom and a great wife in other ways, but we're both unhappy sexually. I told her I don't know what to do and that I don't know if we can ever resolve it, but neither of us is getting younger. I told her I'd feel better if I saw some sign that she was willing to be open to change the way she sees things. For example, if she'd read one of the MANY books about sex I've bought her (instead of getting offended and throwing them out) or read some information online or talked to a friend that is open about sex, I'd think there is at least hope for improvement.

She went to bed, I'm up typing this. And I don't see much hope for improvement.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

You didn't listen, didn't followup on positive things she said, you blamed her, and threatened to leave. I don't know if there are many more areas you could have messed up but anyway. 

Why do you keep hitting this head on, like it is going to change anything? From the interaction you wrote about here, it is solvable if you are patient, perceptive and not so insistent that you get a fantasy and oral. 

Why bring up things that you know she will object to, its like picking a fight. She seems somewhat receptive if you bring her along slowly. 

Drop the [email protected] fantasy, it makes her feel guilty which is counterproductive to your goal. Find something else to get her hot that is not so guilt ridden. Start the oral slowly and just licking or a few minutes or in mouth but once she is aroused. She likes to feel cherished and loved so use cherishing but bawdy terms to describe he her butt, breast, upper thigh etc. Use your imagination taking into account what she says. Then build on advances slowly. 

You sound like a petulant boy.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> You sound like a petulant boy.


Nah, that's how sexually frustrated men sound. 

The rest of what you said was spot-on, though. Great advice.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> You didn't listen, didn't followup on positive things she said, you blamed her, and threatened to leave. I don't know if there are many more areas you could have messed up but anyway.
> 
> Why do you keep hitting this head on like it is going to change anything? From your interaction, it is solvable if you are patient, perceptive and not so insistent that you get a fantasy and oral.
> 
> ...


Did you read my original post?

I didn't bring up "the fantasy" tonight, she did. As I've said several times in this thread, I'm fine if we never talk about that particular fantasy again. I think fantasies in general are healthy and fun but I'm not tied to any one in particular.

As to your suggestion, I've suggested tying her to the bed (or vice versa) and even mentioned it again tonight. She's stated unambiguously that she's opposed to it. I'm not going to physically make her let me tie her up.

Even if I did, for more than a decade she has been physically resistant to me giving her oral sex. There was no hint tonight that she would be suddenly receptive to it. Again, I'm happy to do nearly anything to try to make things better, but I'm not going to physically force her to do anything.

If it takes forceable sexual assault to improve our sex life, I guess our sex life really_ is_ doomed.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Red Hare said:


> Even if I did, for more than a decade she has been physically resistant to me giving her oral sex.


That's so ironic, considering all the posters here who wish their spouses would do it, but they won't. 

What if you do the frog in boiling water approach? Slowly raise the temperature, so to speak. Kiss her near to that area, like on her leg and belly. And over a period of time, get closer and closer. Don't tell her what you're doing. Just do it, bit by bit.


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## jdoe (Apr 22, 2014)

*Re: Update*



Red Hare said:


> Finally she suggested that we talk to our church pastor.


Ooooh... kinky....

She initiated. That's a big gesture. What if you boiled her like a lobster, crank the heat up just a smidge each time? Instead of taking 4 minutes to finish, take a little longer, fool around a bit before finishing up...


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

Red Hare said:


> After our big argument last week things mostly simmered down. We're busy with our kids lives and can generally cooperate. For the most part, we're good co-parents and roommates even when we're at odds about sex.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't fault you for getting your point across. Your timing sucks. She came to you looking for sex and you scolded her. You maybe unhappy with your sex life but dude, never turn down sex! Your sexually repressed wife initiated and you shut her down. Way to teach her not to initiate. 

Next time more sex less talk.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

*Re: Update*



Red Hare said:


> So tonight after the kids went to bed I was lying on the bed reading. She put on a sexy nightee and came to bed which is a sign she's "willing" to have sex. We talked about non-sexual things for a few minutes and she was hinting that she was ready for sex. I wasn't really in the mood though because of the ongoing unresolved issues in bed that we have. I finally told her that I don't want another big argument and that one was going to be inevitable because I would want to do something not on the acceptable list and we'd both get frustrated.
> (


Rather than start an argument, here is a better approach. "Wow, you look awesome. I want to li** your pu***. What do you say?" IF she says OK then go for it. IF she says no, then tell her.... "Look, I'm just not up for the taste of vanilla tonight, but thanks for trying, I do appreciate it".... And then keep yourself upbeat and continue speaking to her.

By doing the above, you will have communicated EVERY SINGLE THING you tried to say in words below.



Red Hare said:


> I tried my best to avoid pointing the finger at her but firmly told her that I am not satisfied with our sex life and that i won't be with so many things off limits. I also told her, as calmly and firmly as possible, that I really think our biggest problem is that in her heart of hearts she really thinks that sex is something that's bad and that women shouldn't enjoy it, but I also acknowledged that I really believe she wants me to be satisfied.
> (


Why would you tell her that in her heart of hearts she thinks sex is bad? That puts the thought in her head. You don't tell her what she thinks. Tell her what you think. That sex is great, it's an emotional bond between a man and a wife... And that the connection for a man is not just "Sex" but "Sexuial Fulfillment"... And fulfilling sex is what you want in your marriage, not vanilla duty sex.



Red Hare said:


> She said that I was wrong and that she wants to enjoy sex but that she doesn't feel loved if the sex involves dirty language, groping, sloppy kissing, etc
> (


Ignore this at your peril, but it's ok to point out that in our sex life, sometimes it's about giving and sometimes its about receiving. 



Red Hare said:


> I told her that I think sex should have some mystery and adventure and that when her off-limits list is so exhaustive I don't think that it does. I also told her I will never be satisfied in a sexual relationship that doesn't include oral sex and that while I don't care if we do everything conceivable, I want to feel like we can talk about sex openly and explore sex
> (


Again, you need to prove this to her in actions and not words. If you want to talk openly about sex, then YOU talk openly about sex without waiting for her permission. If you don't want to have a sex life lacking oral sex, then don't... You were on the right track by refusing sex. What you have to do though is refuse sex on her terms. But rather than having long conversations about it, intiiate sex with what you would like to do, and if she says no, say "that's fine...never mind".... And keep yourself upbeat.



Red Hare said:


> She complained that she didn't like a fantasy that involved some other real or imaginary person. I told her that that's only a symptom and that I can take that particular fantasy or leave it, but that I liked it because on the occasions she would indulge it she would be less self conscious and "into" the sex, which is a good thing. I also told her that in my opinion it isn't wrong anyway because she doesn't "really" want to be with another guy...it's all fantasy between the two of us, who ARE married.
> 
> I told her I had asked her if she had any fantasies and she always insisted that she didn't. (Once she told me women don't fantasize about sex like men do.) She offered to fantasize about me being a cook or something and she was going to have sex with me, but of course, in the fantasy I was going to be her husband. I'm not sure I really understand that particular fantasy but, again, that's symptomatic rather than the root problem.
> (


This is not about fantasies... Stop talking about them. Stop asking her what's in her head.



Red Hare said:


> Finally she suggested that we talk to our church pastor. I told her no way. Just because he's a pastor doesn't mean he has any insight on sex. If the transmission in my car was slipping, I wouldn't bring it to the pastor for a repair. I offered to find a sex therapist if she wanted, but she didn't seem to like that idea either. I also told her that the ridiculous books by Christian pastors that her mother gave her to read about sex before we got married were probably a big part of our problem and I would never give our kids those stupid books.
> 
> (


What books? How do you know they are ridiculous? There are two great books that I would recommend. The 5 love languages and "His Needs, Her Needs". Both written by Christian Pastors. A good pastor will know that sexual fulfillment is very important to a man in his marriage. But, you are right to fear counseling. The wrong counselor could seriously damage your marriage by validating your wife. A feminist, for example. I would call the pastor and see what his views are on marital sex and the problem you are having, and if he seems to be in agreement with your position, I would go for it. This is not a sex problem per se, and a sex therapist is probably not the answer.



Red Hare said:


> I told her that the things I want to try aren't immoral. Oral sex is even alluded to in the bible itself! I told her I think the bible is pretty clear that we can do whatever we want between the two of us and that I feel really cheated that I don't get to do the things that other married men get to do
> 
> (


Needy and weak. IF you don't want sex on her terms, don't have a sex life on her terms.



Red Hare said:


> Finally I told her that our terrible sex life was destroying our marriage. I like her. I think she's a great mom and a great wife in other ways, but we're both unhappy sexually. I told her I don't know what to do and that I don't know if we can ever resolve it, but neither of us is getting younger. I told her I'd feel better if I saw some sign that she was willing to be open to change the way she sees things. For example, if she'd read one of the MANY books about sex I've bought her (instead of getting offended and throwing them out) or read some information online or talked to a friend that is open about sex, I'd think there is at least hope for improvement.
> 
> She went to bed, I'm up typing this. And I don't see much hope for improvement.



Ouch... Once you make the problem unsolvable, it will be unsolvable. You should say something today that shows you are optimistic that you can work through this.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MSP said:


> Nah, that's how sexually frustrated men sound.
> 
> The rest of what you said was spot-on, though. Great advice.


i should have said - you may sound like a whiney child to your wife. That is the most important person he has to get to follow him. She has to trust that he won't insist on leading her in a direction that will make her feel bad. 

It's OK to push but you needs to push slowly and with the right attitude. Don't tell her exactly what you want. She has her idea of oral sex and you don't know what that is. 

It's obviously not erotic. What you want is hot and exciting, you don't have to give it a bad label.

You get ahead of your self and she starts thinking of a reason to protest before you get started. Don't talk so much period. Stop telling her she has to do what you want because you are not satisfied. 

That's not going to work because you are backing her into a conner. Do you really think she is going to do something that makes her feel bad just to make you happy? No Make it a win -win. Do this right. 

Tell her how much you love your bad girl. Reassure her. The safer she feels the faster she will grow. I know hat I am talking about here. I was the same way.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: Update*

Red,

Reading this makes me sad. 

While I sincerely believe your intentions are good:
- You didn't have a 'plan' for this conversation, you kind of spoke from the heart, but on the fly. Very dangerous. 
- Your wife, has a genuine desire to please you, came to bed in lingerie and was told by the ONE person in the whole universe who's promised to take care of her that:
1. She sucks in bed
2. Her attitude sucks
3. He's starting to think about leaving 

And - dammit man - you actually need to listen to what she says a bit more carefully. 

1. Sloppy kissing: This is honest raw feedback from her to you. She has responsive desire. Sloppy kissing before she's turned on and ready for it, is a turn off for her. 

2. Groping: This seems like some sort of sincere feedback, probably also a timing thing. Meaning that certain touches feel great once she's turned on, and feel bad if they happen before she's turned on. 

3. Dirty talking: you ought to be able to work this out

I get why you nixed the pastor. 

Why the heck didn't you counter with a Christian therapist. You don't have to be more specific than that: Christian therapist eons the door you want to open. 

I sympathize with your frustration. But this was a total **** up.





Red Hare said:


> After our big argument last week things mostly simmered down. We're busy with our kids lives and can generally cooperate. For the most part, we're good co-parents and roommates even when we're at odds about sex.
> 
> So tonight after the kids went to bed I was lying on the bed reading. She put on a sexy nightee and came to bed which is a sign she's "willing" to have sex. We talked about non-sexual things for a few minutes and she was hinting that she was ready for sex. I wasn't really in the mood though because of the ongoing unresolved issues in bed that we have. I finally told her that I don't want another big argument and that one was going to be inevitable because I would want to do something not on the acceptable list and we'd both get frustrated.
> 
> ...


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

U.E. McGill said:


> I don't fault you for getting your point across. Your timing sucks. She came to you looking for sex and you scolded her. You maybe unhappy with your sex life but dude, never turn down sex! Your sexually repressed wife initiated and you shut her down. Way to teach her not to initiate.
> 
> Next time more sex less talk.


I see your point but the problem is that sex with her is at the point now that it's not worth the effort. We'd get started and I would try to do one of the multitude of things on the "no" list, then I'd be even more frustrating. If you've never been with someone who is simply checking something off her list then it might be hard to understand. As frustrating as it is not having good sex, it's more frustrating having bad sex.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

*Re: Update*



Hicks said:


> Rather than start an argument, here is a better approach. "Wow, you look awesome. I want to li** your pu***. What do you say?" IF she says OK then go for it. IF she says no, then tell her.... "Look, I'm just not up for the taste of vanilla tonight, but thanks for trying, I do appreciate it".... And then keep yourself upbeat and continue speaking to her.
> 
> By doing the above, you will have communicated EVERY SINGLE THING you tried to say in words below.
> 
> ...



Thanks, this is probably the most helpful, practical advice I've received so far in this thread. It probably would have been more productive to clarify that I wasn't interested in sex on her terms but that I would be happy to have sex if she was willing to be more open about things. I'm a bit gunshy because in recent years I have stopped in the middle of things because I grew so frustrated about not being able to do anything but her version of "normal" sex. That usually results in more hurt feelings and frustration than simply turning it down from the start. But, it's a legitimate point that if I don't give her additional chances to be more open about things then she probably won't. I do think your suggestion is good about agreeing to "terms" prior to beginning anything and declining if we can't agree.

Relating to fantasies, I agree with you, but I didn't bring up any issues of fantasy last night. I don't care if we don't have any role play or the like as long that isn't one of two dozen other things that off limits.

I am pretty pessimistic at this point, honestly. I'm not comfortable trying to pressure her into doing things she doesn't want to do, and if she does them only because she feels pressured I don't think those things would be particularly enjoyable anyway. I really feel like her feelings are fixed and anything I do to try to change them will only make things worse and create more hard feelings. I'm beginning to feel that my only three options are divorce, cheating on her, or being frustrated that the only sexual relationship I'll ever have in my life is wildly unfulfilling (to both of us.) It's really hard to stay positive about things working out when I see no evidence that she sees anything her "version" of sex and is unwilling to do any practical thing that I've suggested try to be more creative and free in bed.


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## ifweonly (Feb 27, 2014)

karole said:


> There is a Christian website that I've seen posted here several times, but I can't remember the name of it. Perhaps someone else will post the web address. She needs to read it - pronto!!


One website is "Christian Nymphos". That site is directed at women mainly and their challenges within a Christian marriage.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

*Re: Update*



MEM11363 said:


> Red,
> 
> Reading this makes me sad.
> 
> ...


The timing was probably bad, but we've never been able to talk about sex in any constructive way. I really didn't want to have sex with her which is why I started the conversation. Having sex with her is unbelievably frustrating at this point and actually creates more bitterness.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: Update*

Red,
I get why you're angry. 

Here's the thing. Your response below reads like this:

I'm hurt and angry therefore I am going to tell my truth to my wife and let the chips fall as they may. 

When you are ready to do the stuff below, let me know and I'll gladly try to help you. Until then I sincerely wish you luck. 

- stop deflecting 
- get control of your emotions (calm yourself down)
- take ownership of your part in fixing this 
- start working on a plan 





QUOTE=Red Hare;8857778]The timing was probably bad, but we've never been able to talk about sex in any constructive way. I really didn't want to have sex with her which is why I started the conversation. Having sex with her is unbelievably frustrating at this point and actually creates more bitterness.[/QUOTE]


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

The problem is, the more hurt and angry you appear, the more hurt and angry you make her feel. And that reduces here already low sex drive.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

*Re: Update*



MEM11363 said:


> Red,
> I get why you're angry.
> 
> Here's the thing. Your response below reads like this:
> ...


[/QUOTE]


Believe me, I get where you're coming from. Talking about it on here has been helpful in making me introspective about it. As I consider it more and more, I wonder if I've waited to long to really work things out at this point. I wasn't deflecting in my last response to you, but I did realize that the real reason I turned her down last night wasn't strategic or to further the conversation. It was because I've grown so bitter over the years that I preferred not having sex with her to having sex with her.

That's a pretty big deal and the more I think about it the more I'm fairly certain it's irreconcilable. As bad as it is, I've always told myself that divorce only makes things worse. Reading all the stories on her of people that moved on and ARE happy now has really made me reconsider. Is it reasonable or fair for me to try to change her? Or should we each find someone already reasonably compatible with ourselves? I don't pretend to believe that any marriage is perfect, but when two people are so far apart in their views about sex is it better just hitting the reset button?

I started this thread thinking the problem is her unwillingness to be open to sex, but now I'm becoming convinced that the problem is my lack of courage to finally say "Enough!" and end a marriage that was probably doomed from the start.


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## ifweonly (Feb 27, 2014)

Okay, Red Hare this is how it went with my wife and myself.

When we married, if it wasn't written in the Bible, then it was a no go! Sound like your wife????

It did take time to introduce oral sex and the like for her to feel comfortable but she did (on her timetable--not mine) come to enjoy things other than missionary. Yes, we both do oral and she even lets me cum while her performing on me. But IT TOOK TIME!!!!

As others have said, work with her on her terms and slowly, very carefully expand on what she permits you to do currently.

Listen guy, you will never get more [email protected]@y buy telling her how bad and undesirable she is in bed. NEVER. Most women want to please their mate and eventually may will go beyond what they believe is the "Norm" in order to have a happy relationship.

If she does not want to be tied up to a bed ---- then stop bringing the subject up; the same for other fantasy's. The truth is your attitude is part of her problem. I know that is harsh but having sex on her terms will permit her to enjoy the experience and that may very lead to more sex on an expanded basis. I know that is how it worked for my wife and myself. Believe me, this is the voice of experience talking here!:lol: I wish you and your wife the best!


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

Heaping more shame and guilt on somebody who already associates sex with shame and guilt will probably not be a successful plan. 

I know you are frustrated, my husband and I were in this same situation years ago. It took several years of therapy, much work on intimacy and sharing that had nothing to do with sex, and restarting our sex life at square one before we were in a good place sexually. It was a ton of work, but we made it. (I was way worse than your wife)


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: Update*

Deep breath Red. Anger is ok, anger driven recklessness not so much. 

If you divorce her without at least giving therapy a chance, that is a betrayal of you vows and your children. 

1. Your wife says: I really want you to be happy.

Do you believe that to be a true statement and also that she recognizes that she is going to need to make an effort in order for that to happen?

So far, from what you've told us, I believe she's sincere. 

2. She suggests seeing your pastor: Do you have reason to believe that he will take her side? 

Is there a reason you would not meet with him privately - just you and him - to take his temperature on this topic and interview him to see if you think he might be qualified. 

Is there a reason you are confident a Christian female therapist can't help her open up? 

--------

Is it possible that the reason your past discussions about sex have gone badly is because you initiate them when you are angry?

Why are you totally deflecting the comments about sloppy kissing and groping? 

No ones suggesting you're a bad lover. Her body may simply need a bit longer to warm up before certain things feel good. 

I truly believe she was trying to give you constructive feedback. Trying to help you make the experience better for BOTH of you. 

This stuff is hard. But honest feedback like that is gold. If get divorced and dismiss your next sexual partners feedback this way, you won't get a good result. 

One last thing. 

A good counselor will help you differentiate between sexual aversions that are based on:
- Theology/morality 
- Physiology - she might believe oral sex is dirty - like an OCD thing. Some folks who dislike oral, claim outwardly that there issue is that it's wrong. 





Believe me, I get where you're coming from. Talking about it on here has been helpful in making me introspective about it. As I consider it more and more, I wonder if I've waited to long to really work things out at this point. I wasn't deflecting in my last response to you, but I did realize that the real reason I turned her down last night wasn't strategic or to further the conversation. It was because I've grown so bitter over the years that I preferred not having sex with her to having sex with her.

That's a pretty big deal and the more I think about it the more I'm fairly certain it's irreconcilable. As bad as it is, I've always told myself that divorce only makes things worse. Reading all the stories on her of people that moved on and ARE happy now has really made me reconsider. Is it reasonable or fair for me to try to change her? Or should we each find someone already reasonably compatible with ourselves? I don't pretend to believe that any marriage is perfect, but when two people are so far apart in their views about sex is it better just hitting the reset button?

I started this thread thinking the problem is her unwillingness to be open to sex, but now I'm becoming convinced that the problem is my lack of courage to finally say "Enough!" and end a marriage that was probably doomed from the start.[/QUOTE]


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

*Re: Update*



MEM11363 said:


> Deep breath Red. Anger is ok, anger driven recklessness not so much.
> 
> If you divorce her without at least giving therapy a chance, that is a betrayal of you vows and your children.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


I still think she theoretically wants me to be satisfied. But it's not like we're newlyweds and this is a new problem. In fact, if we were newlyweds I'd feel the chances of working things out were good. Instead, perhaps partly because I haven't been smart about trying to work through things with her, I wonder if I've grown so bitter and jaded I don't believe that change is possible. That's pretty much the conclusion I'm reaching.

As far as sloppy kissing or groping or tying up or fantasies or anything else, I don't have any one "thing" that's a must have for me. My problem is that my wife is opposed to all of them. Every one. And it's not matter of me rushing things before she's ready. When we have sex, she want's 90 seconds of "foreplay" then she wants me to put my "penis" in her so we can get it over with. I've told her I think things would be better with more foreplay but she's the one that rejects it. I don't claim to be the world's greatest lover, but it's not from a want of trying or a willingness to be responsive. Maybe it's just me, but 90 seconds of closed mouth kissing then trying to force myself into a mostly dry vagina isn't the most exciting sexual experience.

The reason I rejected out of hand talking to the pastor is that there is absolutely nothing he could say that would improve anything. There are two things he would tell us: that married couples are supposed to have sex and God intends it to be pleasurable; and, that we should love each other and it isn't loving to try to force someone to do something they don't want to. 

In theory, she agrees that wives should have sex with their husbands. She's willing. I also agree that I shouldn't try to force her to do things she doesn't want to do. Where that would leave us is where all the terrible "Christian" books left us. We're free to experiment as we wish in the marital bed (as long as it doesn't involve other people), but that we should respect each other's boundaries.

The practical effect is this...I should stop pushing her to do things because she's doing what's required for a wife.

Again, I don't disagree. What sucks is that we didn't figure out until after we were married how far apart we are in terms of sexual likes and dislikes, and I owe it all to our mutual belief that we should remain virgins until we got married.

All that frustrates me more because I hear stories of the sex that others had before they got married, during extramarital affairs, and during a marriage between two like minded people. I have never been able to experience any of that and on my present course I never will. I've done the "right" thing and as a result I have a terrible, unsatisfying sexual relationship. If I continue to do the "right" thing--staying married for life and not committing adultery--then I am almost certain that I'll never have a satisfying sexual relationship in my entire life. Is it too much to ask to have a decent blowjob in my life?

Every post I've made today has made the decision more clear to me. As painful as it is, I don't want to be 50 with the same frustration I have today, which is the same frustration that I had when I was 30.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: Update*

Red,
Sorry if you had already explained her behavior in bed. 

Ouch. That was painful to read. Man to man: I wouldn't tolerate sex like that either. 

That said: On a 10 scale your wife is about a 2. Tolerating oral sex requires about a 4. Liking it about a 6-7.

No one jumps from a 2 to a 7 in one hop. 

If it were me, I would tell her this.

For sex to be good, I have to feel like I'm doing it WITH you, and not TO you. 

That means I need at least:
- 20 minutes of foreplay AND
- to get you turned on enough so you are fully wet when I enter you

I can skip the 'talking part' for now, but during foreplay we need to both be gradually touching each other's bodies in a more intimate manner. 

Let's start with a game. You touch me where and how you want me to touch you. Maybe you start out rubbing my outer thigh, than move to my inner thigh. I'll do to you, what you do to me. 

If you want soft, touch me softly. If you want more firm touch, do that to me. Faster, slower, whatever. 

It will feel a bit awkward, but we need to learn how to make foreplay a major part of sex in order for me to feel like sex is something I do WITH you, and not TO you. 

If you want to show me how you want me to touch your clit, you can use one of my nipples as a proxy. As you are touching me, I will touch you.

------
Red,
If she isn't willing to play that game - or something very similar - than I agree her comments about effort are empty. 




I still think she theoretically wants me to be satisfied. But it's not like we're newlyweds and this is a new problem. In fact, if we were newlyweds I'd feel the chances of working things out were good. Instead, perhaps partly because I haven't been smart about trying to work through things with her, I wonder if I've grown so bitter and jaded I don't believe that change is possible. That's pretty much the conclusion I'm reaching.

As far as sloppy kissing or groping or tying up or fantasies or anything else, I don't have any one "thing" that's a must have for me. My problem is that my wife is opposed to all of them. Every one. And it's not matter of me rushing things before she's ready. When we have sex, she want's 90 seconds of "foreplay" then she wants me to put my "penis" in her so we can get it over with. I've told her I think things would be better with more foreplay but she's the one that rejects it. I don't claim to be the world's greatest lover, but it's not from a want of trying or a willingness to be responsive. Maybe it's just me, but 90 seconds of closed mouth kissing then trying to force myself into a mostly dry vagina isn't the most exciting sexual experience.

The reason I rejected out of hand talking to the pastor is that there is absolutely nothing he could say that would improve anything. There are two things he would tell us: that married couples are supposed to have sex and God intends it to be pleasurable; and, that we should love each other and it isn't loving to try to force someone to do something they don't want to. 

In theory, she agrees that wives should have sex with their husbands. She's willing. I also agree that I shouldn't try to force her to do things she doesn't want to do. Where that would leave us is where all the terrible "Christian" books left us. We're free to experiment as we wish in the marital bed (as long as it doesn't involve other people), but that we should respect each other's boundaries.

The practical effect is this...I should stop pushing her to do things because she's doing what's required for a wife.

Again, I don't disagree. What sucks is that we didn't figure out until after we were married how far apart we are in terms of sexual likes and dislikes, and I owe it all to our mutual belief that we should remain virgins until we got married.

All that frustrates me more because I hear stories of the sex that others had before they got married, during extramarital affairs, and during a marriage between two like minded people. I have never been able to experience any of that and on my present course I never will. I've done the "right" thing and as a result I have a terrible, unsatisfying sexual relationship. If I continue to do the "right" thing--staying married for life and not committing adultery--then I am almost certain that I'll never have a satisfying sexual relationship in my entire life. Is it too much to ask to have a decent blowjob in my life?

Every post I've made today has made the decision more clear to me. As painful as it is, I don't want to be 50 with the same frustration I have today, which is the same frustration that I had when I was 30.[/QUOTE]


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

*Re: Update*

That's a pretty big deal and the more I think about it the more I'm fairly certain it's irreconcilable. [/QUOTE]

IMHO, give therapy a chance.

How do you get her to go? Find a female, Christian sex therapist. (or a few of them). Get her business card. Also, have the business card of a divorce lawyer. Give your wife the two cards and ask her which one she wants you to call.

I don't really understand the calls for "patience" here. "Go Slow". They've been married fourteen years and it sounds like the OP has made zero progress. He writes well, and it sounds like he speaks well and plainly. His ability to communicate does not seem to be the issue. How much slower can you go? How much clearer can he possibly be? 

As for the people criticizing the OP for his unscripted talk, well, he laid out his feelings honestly and well. Sometimes that leads to something called "a fight". Couples fight. Then they make up. If they can't make up afterwards then the marriage is finished anyway. I don't understand the call for treating her with kid gloves.

Does his wife love him or not? Enough to at least *open her mind* to the possibility that maybe she could be/should be doing more than she is (in a way that is consistent with her religous values)? Or is she just going through the motions and fulfilling her end of the contract without reference to what her husband wants and needs? If so, then their marriage is finished.


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## Red2 (Apr 28, 2013)

Here is my opinion. I don't comment very often but in this case I just have to....
People don't fundamentally change. Your wife will never be a warm and passionate lover that can't wait to unzip your pants and give you the most mind-blowing BJ ever. Why? Sex is not something that she truly enjoys and it is not high priority for her. She is hiding behind the bible. It's not religion that's stopping her....she just doesn't like sex. Sorry.... 
Btw, you never mentioned how she feels about giving oral sex?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Red Hare said:


> I see your point but the problem is that sex with her is at the point now that it's not worth the effort. We'd get started and I would try to do one of the multitude of things on the "no" list, then I'd be even more frustrating. If you've never been with someone who is simply checking something off her list then it might be hard to understand. As frustrating as it is not having good sex, it's more frustrating having bad sex.


You have something to build on Red so don't give up. There have been many good suggestions. They require work. You chose a good girl to marry so you have to work within the confines of your choice. 

Be fair to your wife and respect who she is and follow the very good advice.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

If you love your wife, there is hope.

She has been passionate when she let herself go in the fantasy about being with someone else. That was really also about letting herself be someone else.

Now you are in a situation in which she very stressed and that is not conducive to good sex. The advantage with going to therapy is that you can have some other authority help restore communication. 

Maybe you can introduce some humor into your discussion. Tell your wife in the morning that you have a surprize for her. At night tell her that the surprize didn't come, but will tomorrow. Before you go to sleep, draw her in to you and hold her. Give her little kisses and whisper little nothings about how you love her. Do not take further. Just let her feel your sexual energy and love.

The next day tell her that her surprize will probably arrive. In the middle of the day call her and tell her that it came.

Reveal that you got her a Christian woman's sex aid device.
sliver bullet 

When you go to bed make sure it has batteries.

If she is willing, then give it a go.

If she is not, don't show disappointment or anger. That is not going to get you anywhere. 

You might as well just file for divorce.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

For women, being sexual is usually for a reason. They know they are not "supposed" to be sexual, but if you give them a reason they "justify" it. So, being willing to walk away from the marriage for you is a great thing. It is the one thing that can truly turn your wife around. The thing is, you have to make her understand she has choices... That she can satisfy you sexually or you will leave and find someone else who will. That you can no longer be a married man in an unfulfilling marriage.

But in order for this to work, she has to want to keep her marriage. Her marriage must make her happy. And, she has to get some encouragement from you when she tries.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

There are a number of comments here that are casting the OP as some kind of petulant crybaby. That's not how I see it at all.

He has repeatedly, over the course of a *fourteen year* marriage, communicated his needs and desires to his wife. 

Is he frustrated and angry? Is he now no longer interested in sex with his wife? Of course. He's only human, not some kind of robot that gets erections on demand. He needs something to work with, a partner in eroticism. He's given his wife plenty of chances to be that person, and has communicated clearly that that's what she needs to be (and he's right). He's tried to be reasonable. He's tried to listen, and he's willing to listen, but she hasn't given him anything to listen to, instead, she has dismissed him (and all the outside advice from all sources that he has offered) every time.

People here suggest he needs to "keep working" and "work on himself". How? Why? Isn't "keep working" what he's been doing for fourteen years already? Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

OP: Quit worrying about "working on you". And some point she's got to do some lifting too, and that point has arrived. I don't think buying her another sex toy (which will probably be thrown in his face) is going to work, and if more "patience and communication" were the answer that would have worked by now.

Don't ask her, tell her: it's a suitable Christian MC (perhaps +pastor if she wants a second opinion) or divorce. The results from MC will not be instant, so give her time to absorb the new viewpoints she's getting. If she doesn't want to lose you she'll make a consistent effort to work with you to turn this thing around.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Ok, time for a little humor, hope you can get a chuckle out of it Red.


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## bestwife (May 10, 2014)

Haha that image can describe everything


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> There are a number of comments here that are casting the OP as some kind of petulant crybaby. That's not how I see it at all.
> 
> He has repeatedly, over the course of a *fourteen year* marriage, communicated his needs and desires to his wife.
> 
> ...


I agree and i don't mean to make light of his longterm frustration with his wife. 

What should he be told. Poor man, he has it bad. Yes he has but he can have a good future. He can take a little brickbat. 

He acts like a stubborn crybaby sometimes but he'll get no coddling here. This is a cranky crowd. But he seems resilient, determined and willing to seek.


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## ifweonly (Feb 27, 2014)

Red--it is so difficult for others to comment as we are not in your shoes. I told you what happened in our marriage and how it worked; I could not be happier! 

Applying the same mythology to your situation may or may not work. You are frustrated and the truth be known, I probably would be too. I guess if it looks like you and your wife are at a crossroads, then a divorce may be the only answer. No, I do not encourage divorce but it would free both you and your wife to find more compatible partners. 

Would sex before marriage prevented this situation? A lot of folks having sex with many others before marriage do end up in divorce as well. Sooooo what is the best route to follow? I have no idea but abstaining from multiple sexual encounters before marriage, at least for my wife and I, worked just fine. Have I ever thought what it would be like with others as you have, of course I have but it is only a thought not acted upon; I love my wife dearly and would never do it.

What ever route that you choose to go, I really do wish you and your wife the best!


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

Update:

Several weeks ago after considering all the advice offered in this thread and in other places I had looked I decided that I needed to try to talk to my wife to let her know how I feel and to apologize for unloading in a fit of frustration. Over a decade of marriage that includes two wonderful children is worth fighting for. I vowed to be as non-accusatory as possible and to explain how I felt and hoped shed be open to trying to work towards a suitable middle ground.

The points I made were:

I was sorry for getting frustrated and unloading on her all at once
Nevertheless, the things I said are things we really need to discuss. Our sexual relationship is unsatisfying for both of us and is going to destroy our marriage if we don't address it.
I don't have any one particular thing I am focused on her doing. What I want is a sexual partner who wants to enjoy sex with me.
I want her to be that sexual partner, not someone else
I think it's important that we be able to talk about sex and listen to each other rather than letting frustration grow until it explodes
I'm willing to got to counseling with a qualified sex therapist if she is
I think fantasizing is fun but I won't engage in any fantasy she doesn't want, though I really need her to make an effort to being open to enjoying sex, rather than being "willing" to fulfill some marital duty
I told her she might consider looking at the Christian Nympho website someone suggested which is tasteful and seems to have good information.

The whole conversation was about an hour long and I felt like it went pretty well. I resolved to try my best to let her feel safe and not to say anything negative about our sexual relationship unless it was in the context of a calm conversation when we are deliberately trying to communicate about it.

Since then, we've had sex several times, only one of which she seemed to be "into" it. During that encounter she hinted around at the fantasy with another nameless guy. I tried not to get involved in it because I was fairly certain she'd be angry about it again despite that fact that she brought it up and was obviously wanting me to talk about it. She finished as well that night and was clearly physically and mentally aroused which made it really fun for me, too.

The other times we've had sex have been considerably less satisfying. While I've tried to be supportive of her efforts (or what I thought were efforts) to be more sexual, it's just not that exciting to be with someone who is obviously going through the motions. Typically she'll appear in one of her "tasteful" lingerie outfits. She'll want to kiss for about ninety seconds. She has started trying to touch my chest some which is something I enjoy, but does not want any similar reciprocation. She'll tell me I'm touching her in a way she doesn't like, which is fine because I appreciate the feedback, but she's completely unwilling to suggest anything whatsoever that she'd like me to do instead. As a result, I generally try to hold my hands as still as possible (because she doesn't want me "rubbing all over her") and I'm completely at a loss as to what, if anything, she might actually want me to do. One thing she doesn't want is for me to touch her vagina or clitoris in any way whatsoever (with the one exception I talked about above when she wanted it.) Again, there is no oral sex (either way). One night I finally just rolled over and left the room because i tried to go down on her and she clamped her legs tightly. I didn't say anything though.

So today I was using her computer to try to book a room for an upcoming trip we're taking. I wasn't snooping, but as I typed in the web address google suggested recently visited sites that immediately caught my attention. I went to the pages and discovered that last month she'd spent quite a bit of time searching for information about sexually abusive relationships. Of course, most of these pages say that a partner who pushes his partner to try sexual things that one doesn't want to do is a sexual abusive person. I guess that's me in her eyes. She doesn't like oral sex for whatever reason, that means, apparently, I should never want her to do it or else I'm basically raping her. 

It seems pretty clear to me that our marriage is over. She's decided that I'm a sexual deviant and abuser because I want a sexual relationship that consists of something other than 90 seconds of dry kisses then 90 seconds of vaginal sex. I would point out that I have NEVER been physically abusive to her (or any woman for that matter), nor have I ever physically forced her do anything. Of course, as one of the websites suggested, me refusing to have sex if she doesn't do certain things is also abuse. Apparently the only way I'm not abusive is to have sex according to her terms and never suggest or ask her to participate in anything that I think we might enjoy.

I don't see how we can possibly work on improving our sexual relationship without any communication or mutual willingness to be open to change. There's no chance I ever suggest anything again, but I still want blowjobs just like 99.9% of all men anywhere. All this time I was hoping that maybe, just maybe, she'd have sought out information about how to actually enjoy sex. Instead, she sought out validation that she's in the right and I'm an ogre.

I've decided two things today. 1. I'm completely open to a sexual relationship with another woman if circumstances permit. 2. I'm going to get my ducks in a row and prepare to divorce her. I hate it, but I'm not going to live the rest of my life sexually unfulfilled with no chance for change.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Red Hare said:


> Update:
> 
> Several weeks ago after considering all the advice offered in this thread and in other places I had looked I decided that I needed to try to talk to my wife to let her know how I feel and to apologize for unloading in a fit of frustration. Over a decade of marriage that includes two wonderful children is worth fighting for. I vowed to be as non-accusatory as possible and to explain how I felt and hoped shed be open to trying to work towards a suitable middle ground.
> 
> ...


The messed up part of this is you will move on like you have to. There is no guarantee that she isn't swinging off the chandeliers for the next guy...

They do this sometimes. Hot for one guy, cold for another.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

RedHare, are you still religous? If so, then having an affair SHOULD rip you up inside if you pursue it. Also, it's the wrong choice to make regardless. Before you go do anything rash, did you confront your wife on what you found in the internet searches? IMHO, it still sounds like you still have a problem with communicating clearly to your wife (and she to you). Fourteen years is a long time to not communicate.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm sorry Red. It seems to me that you've given it your best shot.

I'd urge you not to be _too_ open to a sexual relationship with another woman until at least the divorce is filed, though.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

GTdad said:


> I'm sorry Red. It seems to me that you've given it your best shot.
> 
> I'd urge you not to be _too_ open to a sexual relationship with another woman until at least the divorce is filed, though.


We have other TAM members who have started it up, or almost started it up with another sex partner, and the spouse is spurned into motion.

I don't remember the guy but a guy was pushed to the same brink sexless for years and after not being able to go through with his affair, his wife was spurned to multi daily sexual sessions that lasted over a month.

I think she returned to her comfort zone after dousing him with sex though...


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> IMHO, it still sounds like you still have a problem with communicating clearly to your wife (and she to you). Fourteen years is a long time to not communicate.


If RedHare is describing his conversations with his wife accurately, it is hard for me to imagine how he could be communicating any more clearly than he is.

Red: I'd still give it one more chance. You didn't say what your wife's reaction was to the MC suggestion. Say, apologetically, it's that or divorce. Just the two of you talking isn't working.

I think the more honorable thing to do is to establish that MC is a no go (ie: the marriage is over in all but name) first, before starting something else.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think that's wise. Nothing you've done seems remotely abusive.





Red Hare said:


> Update:
> 
> Several weeks ago after considering all the advice offered in this thread and in other places I had looked I decided that I needed to try to talk to my wife to let her know how I feel and to apologize for unloading in a fit of frustration. Over a decade of marriage that includes two wonderful children is worth fighting for. I vowed to be as non-accusatory as possible and to explain how I felt and hoped shed be open to trying to work towards a suitable middle ground.
> 
> ...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

No need to cheat. Tell your wife that you divorcing and want to separate. Once you have clearly stated that your marriage is over, you can start dating. However, it is always problematic to do it while living under the same roof.

Your wife is sexually repressed. It is hard to believe that she does not have some sort of personality disorder but clearly you are not an objective source of information, given your resentment.

The sooner you end your marriage, the sooner you will both begin to heal.

I wonder if your wife will even share her feelings with you when you inform her of your decision.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> I think that's wise. Nothing you've done seems remotely abusive.


This is what constitutes sexual abuse according to one of the pages she viewed:

grabbing or groping your sexual parts without you having given consent
* coercion to do stuff you didn’t feel comfortable with (e.g. sodomy)
pressure to be sexual more often that you wanted to be*
unwanted or forced sex of any kind, including but not limited to rape (rape is non-consensual penetration of any orifice)
*unreasonable withholding or denial of sexual intimacy
emotional blackmail in relation to sexual intimacy*
denigration of your sexual parts, behaviour, or history
use of scripture to “justify” the sexual abuse (which scriptures in particular?)
use of pornography
exposing you to sexually transmissible diseases
demanding sex when you were sick, had just had a baby, or had a urinary tract infection
demanding participation in group sex
making you be a prostitute
bestiality
attacking and/or injuring your genitals and sexual body parts
talking about your sexuality to others in ways that embarrassed or denigrated you.


So what I'm guessing is that my persistent (through more than a decade of marriage) desire to include oral sex in the bedroom is coercion and pressuring her to be more sexual than she wants to. Then, if I get frustrated by her unwillingness to do anything outside her very narrow "norm" and decline to have sex then I am unreasonable withholding sexual intimacy. When I'm angry and frustrated by her unwillingness to talk about the problem, then I'm engaging in "emotional blackmail."

Yes, it's true that I have reacted in a passive-aggressive way at times. Rather than tell how I'm feeling (which results in her crying or in an argument), I sometimes just avoid sex altogether. The offer of restrictive, substantially unsatisfying sex with someone unwilling to say she "wants" it just isn't worth bringing my dissatisfaction by to the forefront of my mind. Every time I think about it I get angry and frustrated, so I try not to think about it.

Yes, I'm religious and, yes, I think adultery is wrong. But I also think divorce is wrong too. If I divorce her I'm already compromising on my values. As much as I don't want to do that, I can't stop thinking about all the years I've already spent in this relationship hoping that things might change one day. I just don't want to have the same regrets in ten years that I have now.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> If RedHare is describing his conversations with his wife accurately, it is hard for me to imagine how he could be communicating any more clearly than he is.
> 
> Red: I'd still give it one more chance. You didn't say what your wife's reaction was to the MC suggestion. Say, apologetically, it's that or divorce. Just the two of you talking isn't working.
> 
> I think the more honorable thing to do is to establish that MC is a no go (ie: the marriage is over in all but name) first, before starting something else.


Well, 14 years is a long time to go thru this with there being no changes if the communication was going thru clearly. Also, unless I misread, I don't think he confronted the wife when he discovered she was looking up "sexual abuse" on google. He's making assumptions and throwing in the towel without talking to her about what he found. However, suffuring 14 years of this may be too much, and the risk of a 15th year is unacceptable.

Another thing to consider. His wife may have received his messages perfectly fine over these 14 years - assuming he's been talking to her about his frustrations for years. However, if she refused to make changes after years of discussions, then he's not receiving her communication back to him loud and clear, i.e. "I'm not changeing. Live with it or GTFO".


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Well, 14 years is a long time to go thru this with there being no changes if the communication was going thru clearly. Also, unless I misread, I don't think he confronted the wife when he discovered she was looking up "sexual abuse" on google. He's making assumptions and throwing in the towel without talking to her about what he found. However, suffuring 14 years of this may be too much, and the risk of a 15th year is unacceptable.


You never know what that final straw will be. I'm sometimes curious whether there'll be one in my marriage and what it will turn out to be.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Red Hare said:


> Of course, most of these pages say that a partner who pushes his partner to try sexual things that one doesn't want to do is a sexual abusive person. I guess that's me in her eyes.


One last thought: you should be sure you are interpreting these web searches correctly. Maybe her conclusion from her research was "no, my husband is *not* sexually abusive and I'm being unreasonable". Or maybe the search was about her past, or about a friend, or.....

Anyway, I agree it looks damning. You should say "look, I found these web searches. Is that how you see me after the conversations we've had... as an abuser of some sort? 

(if no denial)...I find that disappointing that that's how you see me after 14 years of marriage, and now I have to insist that we talk to an MC because we're still obviously not seeing eye to eye." 

(if refusal) "Then the other option is divorce"

You don't want to wind up threatening divorce over a misunderstanding. Anyway, good luck. I think you will end up much happier on the other side of this.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Based on the research I have concluded that your wife is indeed sexually abusive toward you.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Based on the research I have concluded that your wife is indeed sexually abusive toward you.


What? She has her sexual boundaries and limits designed for her own empowerment?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I wouldn't mention the browser history. That would just raise the issue control and spying, etc.

Just ask her in a very calm way if she has ever felt that you were abusing her.

She does not feel comfortable with oral sex. She may feel that it is an assault on her person. That is not what most people think or feel, but she does. Is she normal? In such a sexualized society it is unlikely that she has not noticed that she is not typical.

The fantasy that she enjoys is a major tip off that she searches of permission to let loose. Making love to you is not ok, an imaginary stranger, yes, you no.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> I wouldn't mention the browser history. That would just raise the issue control and spying, etc.
> 
> Just ask her in a very calm way if she has ever felt that you were abusing her.
> 
> ...


Yes, I probably won't mention it to her. I wasn't snooping - at least I didn't set out to - but I'm glad I found out what she was thinking. Lots of things make more sense now. 

As far as oral sex, the thread has gotten kind of long now (thanks to everyone's helpful replies!) but in one of my earlier posts I said that my problem with her isn't any one thing, including oral sex. It's that she's completely closed to anything that isn't within her narrow scope of what's acceptable. As much as I'd like oral sex to be part of our menu, I could live without it if that was the one thing she just wasn't up for for whatever reason. My problem with her is that nearly everything is on the "no" list. 

I agree with you about the reason that fantasy appeals to her, as well. I don't feel threatened by it and if that is a tool to help her open up sexually I'm happy to use it any time. Unfortunately when she's not in the moment, she finds that fantasy to be appalling and blames me for talking about something she claims she doesn't want to hear. The sex is usually pretty good when she gets into that fantasy, but in the back of my mind I always know there will be hell to pay for awhile after when she feels guilty and blames me for being such a pervert.

I do think a good sex therapist might help us work through some things, but she's only willing to go talk to the pastor of the church we attend. I'm adamantly unwilling to do that. He may be a good pastor but he's no more an expert on sexual issues than he is on performing root canals. In the back of her mind she takes comfort knowing he would take her side on things and tell me that we're free to express love through sex as a married couple, neither party should push the other to do something he or she doesn't want to do.

Honestly this dominant teaching in Christian churches has caused a bit of a crisis of faith for me recently. Following church doctrine, we were supposed to remain virgins until marriage (which we did), at which time we are married for life to someone with whom we may be completely sexually incompatible. Any sex outside of that marriage is wrong, and it would also be wrong for me to push her to expand her boundaries in bed. It really seems like some kind of twisted joke.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

*Re: Update*



Red Hare said:


> She said that I was wrong and that she wants to enjoy sex but that she doesn't feel loved if the sex involves dirty language, groping, sloppy kissing, etc.


She sounds like she wants sex to be erotica, while you want it to be porn. I think this is a common difference between men and women. Porn objectifies women, while erotica idealizes men. Both are therefore troublesome That whole men give sex and mean love, while women give sex to get love thing. If you are being dirty and gropy, she feels like you think of her as a *****, not as a beloved wife.

You need to start thinking like erotica instead of like porn. You need to appeal to her five senses and her mind, not demand that she appeal to your "penis." Worship her body respectfully, talk up how amazing she is, and be careful about the language you use, avoiding anything crude. Put her on a pedestal for this. It's not about how turned on YOU get, it's about letting her know that SHE's a turn-on.

You keep threatening divorce, talking about how she has to change, how she needs to work on stuff, how you can't live like this, etc etc, that just puts enormous pressure on her to perform, which basically paralyzes her.



jdoe said:


> She initiated. That's a big gesture. What if you boiled her like a lobster, crank the heat up just a smidge each time? Instead of taking 4 minutes to finish, take a little longer, fool around a bit before finishing up...


YES THIS. Start slow, stay strictly within her comfort level, and very slowly push the boundaries. Have a night that's just about kissing her. Revisit the premarital days where you did nothing but foreplay and dream of the sexual bliss that awaited. Take the pressure off her by saying it won't lead to sex, but you really want to kiss her for ten minutes straight. Be gentle, don't press hard into her lips. Be open-mouthed but don't drool all over her. Etc. Don't grope her, stroke her. Massage her shoulders with the occasional stroke lower on her chest. Find her erogenous zones that aren't breasts or butt or otherwise within her 'no' territory. Etc.



Red Hare said:


> I said that my problem with her isn't any one thing, including oral sex. It's that she's completely closed to anything that isn't within her narrow scope of what's acceptable. As much as I'd like oral sex to be part of our menu, I could live without it if that was the one thing she just wasn't up for for whatever reason. My problem with her is that nearly everything is on the "no" list.
> 
> I agree with you about the reason that fantasy appeals to her, as well. I don't feel threatened by it and if that is a tool to help her open up sexually I'm happy to use it any time. Unfortunately when she's not in the moment, she finds that fantasy to be appalling and blames me for talking about something she claims she doesn't want to hear. The sex is usually pretty good when she gets into that fantasy, but in the back of my mind I always know there will be hell to pay for awhile after when she feels guilty and blames me for being such a pervert.


She has a narrow scope of what's acceptable and nothing appeals to her when she isn't "in the moment." So your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to put her in the moment more often. Seduce her! Don't go to her like it's her duty to submit, go to her like you want to make her feel good.

You said she expressed that her only fantasy was that you cook? Well? Do you? Get a sitter to take the kids for a night, and make dinner for her while she watches. Have her taste test things by feeding her by hand as you go. Indulge her instead of telling her that she better indulge you or else. Even if you think you aren't saying that, it may be the message she's hearing nonetheless.



Red Hare said:


> When we have sex, she want's 90 seconds of "foreplay" then she wants me to put my "penis" in her so we can get it over with. I've told her I think things would be better with more foreplay but she's the one that rejects it. I don't claim to be the world's greatest lover, but it's not from a want of trying or a willingness to be responsive. Maybe it's just me, but 90 seconds of closed mouth kissing then trying to force myself into a mostly dry vagina isn't the most exciting sexual experience.


She wants it over fast because she doesn't enjoy it (and who would under those circumstances) or because she mistakenly thinks that is normal. So why cave in? Tell her you aren't ready yet, and keep up the foreplay. Find foreplay that arouses her. You have examples to show that she's willing when she's aroused, but the problem is getting her aroused first. She seems afraid of arousal to me. She won't even watch R rated movies? Maybe they offend her because she's afraid of how they make her body feel and her mind wander.



Red Hare said:


> The reason I rejected out of hand talking to the pastor is that there is absolutely nothing he could say that would improve anything. There are two things he would tell us: that married couples are supposed to have sex and God intends it to be pleasurable; and, that we should love each other and it isn't loving to try to force someone to do something they don't want to.


Ask the pastor to recommend a sex therapist. If he tells your wife it's okay, she may be far more open to the idea.

The end conclusion for me is that your wife is afraid of enjoying sex for some reason, probably brainwashing. You can't overcome that by endless talking to her and telling her she's wrong over and over and that she has to change. You have to slowly desensetize her to the idea. Boil that lobster very slowly through seduction. Don't tell her that her boundaries are wrong. Just play on the right side of the boundaries long enough that she retracts them bit by bit.

Or, you could divorce her, if that sounds like too much work.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

*Re: Update*



Hopeful Cynic said:


> Or, you could divorce her, if that sounds like too much work.


I think what I've realized from posting on here and doing lots of introspective thinking is that I really not willing to keep trying. That became especially clear when I realized she views herself as a sexual abuse victim and me as an abuser. Is there some chance that maybe somehow I can convince her to be open to the idea that sex isn't a terrible thing that men force upon women without reinforcing her belief that I'm a predator by trying to make her do things she doesn't want to do?

Maybe.

But at this point I don't know that I really care enough to try to work that magic. I'm beginning to believe that at my age I could probably find someone that actually wants to be with me and wants to be a sexual partner. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but right now I think I'm just burning time that could be spent with someone else. My focus now is preparing myself for divorce, which I'm sure will be terrible, but will lead to better things.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

So you need a plan for separation. Custody, assets, etc. It's a lot of trouble but you have to start.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

One last thought RedHare. I'd like to compliment you on your writing... you have expressed yourself intelligently, honestly, and well here. Once the **** hits the fan and your wife is asking "why?", you could show her this thread.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

She likely won't care. Or, it will be great "validation" for her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> One last thought RedHare. I'd like to compliment you on your writing... you have expressed yourself intelligently, honestly, and well here. Once the **** hits the fan and your wife is asking "why?", you could show her this thread.


Or you could show it right now. And she could come on and explain her side. And then we could really try to help both of you.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I would tell her you found this web history. I would tell her you are glad you know her thoughts on the subject that she believes you are sexually abusing her. You can understand why she thinks that way. But that to you, fufilling sex is a key part of marriage. Sort of like saying if she were to spend money decorating the house, since you don't care about decorating the house, that this is financial abuse. Instead, you have chosen to look at things like that as you are my wife and you deserve to be happy and fulfilled in your home. And it gives me pleasure and makes me happy to see you happy. Now I know that we don't really share the same views of what a marriage is. That's a real shame.

And leave it there. You see, part of marriage is teaching.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hicks said:


> You see, part of marriage is teaching.


:iagree:

You make very good posts, Hicks.


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## Iver (Mar 8, 2013)

How about a six month or one year probation period? By that I mean do X, Y and Z with the goal of being in a better place. If in say a year you aren't there then proceed to divorce her.

Now if you didn't have children - high school or younger? I would actually recommend divorce. Being married to the "Church Lady" is not something I'd recommend for any man.

How about massage? Who doesn't like that? (OK maybe your wife doesn't) But start with hot oil/coconut/etc and see how that goes. By that I mean is it something your wife enjoys? If so there is hope for her.

Bubble baths? Do the whole candlelight thing and throw in some Vino. Speaking of Vino...

Intoxicants. Look, a couple of glasses of Irish Whiskey or a Margarita or three can do wonders to get in the mood. Maybe even get some pot or hash and give it a go. 

Maybe that's an outlandish idea for you but a divorce, even warranted, is really going to suck. Don't hesitate to go the extra yard if possible.

Meet with the pastor and sound him out as well, who knows, he may not be an idiot. A lot of these guys actually know what the score is so give him a try.

Good Luck.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

Iver said:


> How about a six month or one year probation period? By that I mean do X, Y and Z with the goal of being in a better place. If in say a year you aren't there then proceed to divorce her.
> 
> Now if you didn't have children - high school or younger? I would actually recommend divorce. Being married to the "Church Lady" is not something I'd recommend for any man.
> 
> ...


I don't want to sound like I'm being overly negative, but my wife would not be up for any of that. She hates the idea of a massage (I've actually offered). Bubble bath might be something she'd do, but I think it would take some convincing.

Wine or other liquid relaxers are a no go. Since we had kids NOT drinking is a special point of pride for her. She doesn't really complain about my drinking (I don't drink to the point of impairment) but it's clearly something she looks down at. She takes every opportunity to tell the kids and others that she doesn't drink alcohol. I'd love if she'd be willing to share a bottle of wine with me but it's out of the question.


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## Iver (Mar 8, 2013)

Is there any history of abuse or molestation in her background? Any incidents of assault against her?

I'm just curious how she became what she now is. If none of the above then perhaps a fundamentalist religious background?


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Red Hare said:


> I don't want to sound like I'm being overly negative, but my wife would not be up for any of that. She hates the idea of a massage (I've actually offered). Bubble bath might be something she'd do, but I think it would take some convincing.
> 
> Wine or other liquid relaxers are a no go. Since we had kids NOT drinking is a special point of pride for her. She doesn't really complain about my drinking (I don't drink to the point of impairment) but it's clearly something she looks down at. She takes every opportunity to tell the kids and others that she doesn't drink alcohol. I'd love if she'd be willing to share a bottle of wine with me but it's out of the question.


You know what? I'm going to reverse my previous stance (though the advice still stands as good in general about dealing with low-desire women) and say that you are probably doomed here. She appears to make it a point of pride to be a prude, and not just about sex. It's not just about refusing to do things that she considers immoral, but also about boasting to others because she thinks it's to be admired.

Improving your seduction techniques isn't going to be able to fight that whole general attitude. You've got to confront her with the inevitability of divorce. It will either shake her to her senses and get her to re-evaluate her attitudes, or it will set you free. Though you should definitely frame it as getting divorced because you have become incompatible, rather than saying it's her fault to make it go more smoothly.

Good luck.


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## Iver (Mar 8, 2013)

Obviously there are a lotta issues on the table here. I don't see much hope here either after this latest recap of the wifes' hang-ups. 

Hates the idea of getting a massage? Won't drink wine? Yikes.

Finding an attorney is probably what you should do next so that you understand how a divorce will play out. 

I wonder if your wife will comprehend that she most likely will not be getting married again with the baggage she has?

I just wonder what in the world happened that she ended up like this. A real shame.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> You know what? I'm going to reverse my previous stance (though the advice still stands as good in general about dealing with low-desire women) and say that you are probably doomed here. She appears to make it a point of pride to be a prude, and not just about sex. It's not just about refusing to do things that she considers immoral, but also about boasting to others because she thinks it's to be admired.
> 
> Improving your seduction techniques isn't going to be able to fight that whole general attitude. You've got to confront her with the inevitability of divorce. It will either shake her to her senses and get her to re-evaluate her attitudes, or it will set you free. Though you should definitely frame it as getting divorced because you have become incompatible, rather than saying it's her fault to make it go more smoothly.
> 
> Good luck.


I see this a little differently. This is a common deception - a man marry's a virtuous sexually repressed woman. After a bit of wedding cake and a few drinks, he develops a taste for raunchy, dirty girls, just the kind of girl he never considered marriage material. 

His poor wife is subjected to badgering, coercion, anger, name-calling, threats of D, constant unrelenting pressure to perform and expressions of dissatisfaction. She does not understand what happened to the man that loved her for the person she is. Now he hates her for it. 

OP
You and you wife both brought into the system that stole her sexuality. But you don't want to pay or take responsibility for your beliefs. You expect your wife to pay, again. She is the one who needs to change so you can enjoy what she has not been allowed to enjoy herself, her sexuality. 

Life has a way of averaging out. You can't get what you don't give. You won't accept that your wife's problem is not within her. She did what she was charged to do- control herself. She has every right to be proud. It got her married with children. Your wife will not turn herself into what she considers a **** to stay married to you. 

You can D, pay child support, support her till she gets a job and see your kids part time. In compensation, you'll have the freedom to get as many sexually free woman as you can manage. 

Your wife will not have a problem finding a man who needs what she has to give. He will need to understand the sacrifices she made to be considered a good girl, something you do not appreciate. At the same time, he needs to have the maturity, empathy and patience to slowly bring her out of her shell for mutual sexual enjoyment and sharing his sexuality. 

Gone will be the pressure to parade around displaying herself for someone else's enjoyment and not her own, to put on an act to heighten his enjoyment but not hers, to do sex acts to pleasure him not her and to be someone she never was in the first place.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Your wife will not have a problem finding a man who needs what she has to give. He will need to understand the sacrifices she made to be considered a good girl, something you do not appreciate. At the same time, *he needs to have the maturity, empathy and patience to slowly bring her out of her shell for mutual sexual enjoyment and sharing his sexuality. *
> 
> Gone will be the pressure to parade around displaying herself for someone else's enjoyment and not her own, to put on an act to heighten his enjoyment but not hers, to do sex acts to pleasure him not her and to be someone she never was in the first place.


Beautiful post, Catherine. I truly wish that sort of husband for the OP's wife.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Iver said:


> Obviously there are a lotta issues on the table here. I don't see much hope here either after this latest recap of the wifes' hang-ups.
> 
> Hates the idea of getting a massage? Won't drink wine? Yikes.
> 
> ...


He hasn't even broken a sweat yet and you have him casting his wife away. 

Think she will be alone forever because of her hang ups? Why would a man who wants to have sex with his wife because he loves her imagine such a fate for her? Being a good wife, virtuous woman, good mother and companion to him means so little? 

Do you think that if she paraded around in a teddy with her ass hanging out, talked like a road house [email protected] and fell on him like he was a Popsicle, he would keep her around. 

She may surprise him and you and be very sexual with the next man in her life. She has had an n of one. This one is a bust maybe she'll have more luck with other men. I wouldn't make any assumptions. 

If he wants to D , do it for reasons other than thoughts of her in misery without him. Few people are that indispensable.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jld said:


> Beautiful post, Catherine. I truly wish that sort of husband for the OP's wife.


Jld I was brought up in a devout Catholic home. I went to parochial school with teaching nuns. It was horribly repressive. We were told that if we had sex, it would awaken an insatiable apatite. They didn't mention what we should do when we get married. Have sex when you want children and don't get carried away? 

I'm not trying to be mean - I understand his wife. Under the right influences she can come out of her shell. I did. I really don't know how my husband managed to be so patient and kind. If he did some of the things I read on these threads, we would not have made it this far. 

I know "why do men have to do all of the work". Let me ask this - why is there such a differential effect of religion on female sexuality Vs. male sexuality? Why are women called [email protected], prudes, [email protected]? Let's fix that and maybe we won't have to work so hard.


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## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

Red Hare said:


> I think what I've realized from posting on here and doing lots of introspective thinking is that I really not willing to keep trying. That became especially clear when I realized she views herself as a sexual abuse victim and me as an abuser. Is there some chance that maybe somehow I can convince her to be open to the idea that sex isn't a terrible thing that men force upon women without reinforcing her belief that I'm a predator by trying to make her do things she doesn't want to do?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Amen I feel the same way.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

He's not starting at 100 C. He's been beat down by her for years. Have a little empathy. You're not berating a newlywed and his wife has a big hand in how her marriage has gone. Think about this: if you had not eventually come around your husband too would have eventually given up.


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## hartvalve (Mar 15, 2014)

I am sorry you're at a loss. I really hope there is a turnaround in your marriage. My marriage is, for the most part sexless 85% of the time. I would say to you- "Don't give up." But you've heard that before, I am sure, so I won't do a repeat of the same. 

Abuse of any kind is very traumatic and often takes a lifetime to overcome. I think when it comes to sexual intimacy, the longer it is not important enough to even try to improve for whatever the reason-- The more closed up the person becomes. I am sure your wife would like to accommodate your sexual preferences (sometimes), but find it embarrassingly uncomfortable to express/expose sexual emotions. Doing so may remind her of being less goddess in her eyes and yours? Don't know. 

I still wish you the best.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> Why can't she enjoy wine for it's own sake? Do you drink wine for enjoyment and ask her to share your enjoyment? Buying a bottle of $5 wine and pouring her mason jar full won't do it. Nothing wrong with wine, there are references throughout the Bible about it.
> 
> You know your wife, but you don't accept her. You are starting at 100, which is exactly what you want but she can't handle that. You are being too self referring, back up and start at 10 and ramp up slowly.
> 
> ...



The problem is that now that I realize that she views herself as a victim and me as an abuser anything like that is impossible. Try to get her to enjoy wine with me? I'm an abuser.

She has a ready made, impenetrable defense to anything I suggest that she doesn't want to do. No matter how reasonable it might be, if she doesn't want to do something and I try to convince her to, it's just more proof that she's being abused in our marriage.

I'm patient, but don't see any way around that, honestly.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,
One thing I have found sort of interesting about this thread is this:

Red describes a wife who wants - in his words: 90 seconds of dry kissing followed by 90 seconds of missionary style intercourse. 

It's obvious to him that she is barely tolerating sex and has been from the get go. 

So here's where I was sort of stunned in the thread. He's been pushing for her to accept oral sex and give him oral sex for a long time. But - this is a couple who hasn't sorted out the most basic elements of a sexual connection. On a 10 scale, they are about a 1 - and I only say that because they found one fantasy that turns her on - though it also embarrasses her. 

Red doesn't understand that a mix of humor and compassion would likely help her past the embarrassment. Nor does he grasp that until he gets her to really like, and consistently like - vanilla sex, the idea of asking her for a BJ seems remarkably selfish. 

I suggested an approach for him to use, where she teaches him how to touch her the way she likes being touched. He ignored the suggestion. Kind of sad how this playing out. 






Catherine602 said:


> I see this a little differently. This is a common deception - a man marry's a virtuous sexually repressed woman. After a bit of wedding cake and a few drinks, he develops a taste for raunchy, dirty girls, just the kind of girl he never considered marriage material.
> 
> His poor wife is subjected to badgering, coercion, anger, name-calling, threats of D, constant unrelenting pressure to perform and expressions of dissatisfaction. She does not understand what happened to the man that loved her for the person she is. Now he hates her for it.
> 
> ...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Catherine,
> One thing I have found sort of interesting about this thread is this:
> 
> Red describes a wife who wants - in his words: 90 seconds of dry kissing followed by 90 seconds of missionary style intercourse.
> ...


A couple of thoughts:

IMO, it's highly unlikely she ever will give herself freedom to enjoy her fantasy, or outgrow her sexual repression in another manner. It's not a matter of him encouraging her in the right manner. She is deeply ashamed of this preference.

I may have mentioned this earlier, but (if she is a fairly strict Christian) this behavior is sinful. Any sexual act between a husband and a wife is allowed, as long as it is between the two of them only (in thought as well as in deed). Further, he is lowering his performance as her husband by encouraging this. In doing so, he is diminishing his standing to lead her (in resolving these sex problems as well as in other areas).

Secondly, in the abstract his request for a BJ may seem selfish. Taken in context, however, it seems like she has been so resistant to sex for so long that he's trying anything to see if anything can be found that will meet his need and her sensibility.

IMO it's likely that through some misdeed in her childhood (she or a relative was abused, bad sexual teaching) she has come to see sex for pleasure as dirty. She is deeply ashamed of her turn-ons and avoids sex to maintain her self-image as a "good girl". She has some sex so she can consider herself a good wife.

IMO there is nothing he can do to help her out. Trying to have more sex or different sex will only increase her avoidance. I've BTDT. I recommend he tell her (if he's interested in trying):

* The sex life is an imminent threat to the marriage. She is not a good wife because his satisfaction is part of the standard (this is true in Christian marriages, not just in secular ones).
* She needs to get into some counseling to identify and cope with whatever in her past has caused her to be so sex-averse.
* This is not all about him, and he certainly is willing to compromise on what they will and will not do. But he will not negotiate based on her dysfunction; she must be healthy first.
* Should her drive to stay as she is outweigh her desire for him, or should she feel strongly that the husband should conform to the wife's sensibilities, she is free to find someone like-minded.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think I would maybe change this to:

We need to see a sex therapist. The goal of therapy isn't to pressure you to do things you don't want to do. Instead, the goal is for us to develop a sexual relationship that is truly mutually enjoyable. 

That request needs to be made without any mention of divorce or separation. 

She is going to resist. At which point he needs to tell her: I'm going to start going to sex therapy without you. If that helps us get there - great. (No threats - no nothing). And if/when she presses him not to go - he ought to repeat the goal, and ask her what it is she is afraid of. 

As for the whole - touch me the way you want me to touch you. I think he might be rather surprised by how effective that can be. 

Because the odds are much greater she doesn't like the way he touches her, as opposed to she doesn't like being touched. 






DTO said:


> A couple of thoughts:
> 
> IMO, it's highly unlikely she ever will give herself freedom to enjoy her fantasy, or outgrow her sexual repression in another manner. It's not a matter of him encouraging her in the right manner. She is deeply ashamed of this preference.
> 
> ...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> I think I would maybe change this to:
> 
> We need to see a sex therapist. The goal of therapy isn't to pressure you to do things you don't want to do. Instead, the goal is for us to develop a sexual relationship that is truly mutually enjoyable.
> 
> ...


:iagree: bingo :iagree:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Red,
When I met M2, I was technically competent at sex. I understood basic female physiology and knew what to do with a female body to produce a consistent orgasm for my partners. 

I was according to the Dan Savage model: good, giving and game. 

At the point we'd been sleeping together a month I would have said M2 was an 8, and I was a 7, on a 10 scale. 

In hindsight: M2 was a 9.5, and I was a 4. There was a whole dimension of sexuality that she fully grasped, and I was clueless about. 

Over time, M2 gradually taught me about the stuff that's sexual, has nothing to do with explicitly sexual touch. 

No one reading your thread questions your commitment level. But your approach is 100% pure male. 

Here's what that means: 90% of what you hear, is based on the words your wife speaks. 

But 90% of her communication to you is via body language, including facial expression and tone of voice. And unless you master that, you will struggle to connect sexually with any woman. 






Catherine602 said:


> :iagree: bingo :iagree:


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Catherine,
> One thing I have found sort of interesting about this thread is this:
> 
> Red describes a wife who wants - in his words: 90 seconds of dry kissing followed by 90 seconds of missionary style intercourse.
> ...


This thread is puzzling when you see how it's unfolding. When we were kids, the majority of us did not start enjoying salmon, roquefort cheese, bordeaux wine, etc. out of the gate. It takes time for our tastes to mature and grow. I remember when I was a kid I used to LOVE eating Chef Boyardee meat ravioli from the can. As an adult, I loathe this food. 

It's the same thing with the OP's wife. When it comes to sexuality, she's like a 10/11 year old girl. At best, she is on the cusp of finding SOME of it interesting, but prefers other things like a typical kid would. The OP needs to gently bring this woman into adulthood sexually. As others have pointed out, she needs to be turned on by more than just a fantasy about another man doing her. The OP needs to find the right way to seduce her and to start bringing her more pleasure just from the "basics". 

I'll give a little bit of personal info to illustrate my point. I love variety as much as the next guy. But lately, my wife and I have been doing missionary probably 80% of the time now since December of last year. IMHO, it's an underrated sex position, and I'm sad to say that I wasted time not learning to appreciate this position more (although, losing weight has helped make this position better for us too...). There is SO MUCH variation you can do with "boring old missionary". You can "ride high and support yourself with your hands to watch the ecstasy on her face, you can close to her by supporting yourself on your forearms to kiss her on the lips, neck, etc. You can modify and get into the CAT, you can have her rock her hips up to allow you to hit that spot deep inside and even gently touch the cervix, you can go shallower and rub the G spot, you can grind. It's become freaking awesome.

This position can become SO HOT. C'mon, having your partner grab your ass to pull in deeper, wrap her legs around your waste, gently caress your back with her fingernails or scratching your back from the pleasure you're giving her.

HOT. It's just SO HOT!

Seriously, embrace missionary and work with it. Build on it. You can get there.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Plan,

QFT^2




Plan 9 from OS said:


> This thread is puzzling when you see how it's unfolding. When we were kids, the majority of us did not start enjoying salmon, roquefort cheese, bordeaux wine, etc. out of the gate. It takes time for our tastes to mature and grow. I remember when I was a kid I used to LOVE eating Chef Boyardee meat ravioli from the can. As an adult, I loathe this food.
> 
> It's the same thing with the OP's wife. When it comes to sexuality, she's like a 10/11 year old girl. At best, she is on the cusp of finding SOME of it interesting, but prefers other things like a typical kid would. The OP needs to gently bring this woman into adulthood sexually. As others have pointed out, she needs to be turned on by more than just a fantasy about another man doing her. The OP needs to find the right way to seduce her and to start bringing her more pleasure just from the "basics".
> 
> ...


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> I don't remember how long they are married. I think I am getting two or even three threads mixed up. Too lazy to go back and see were I am.


Yet you had plenty of energy to write a long post excoriating the guy.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> This thread is puzzling when you see how it's unfolding. When we were kids, the majority of us did not start enjoying salmon, roquefort cheese, bordeaux wine, etc. out of the gate. It takes time for our tastes to mature and grow. I remember when I was a kid I used to LOVE eating Chef Boyardee meat ravioli from the can. As an adult, I loathe this food.
> 
> It's the same thing with the OP's wife. When it comes to sexuality, she's like a 10/11 year old girl. At best, she is on the cusp of finding SOME of it interesting, but prefers other things like a typical kid would. The OP needs to gently bring this woman into adulthood sexually. As others have pointed out, she needs to be turned on by more than just a fantasy about another man doing her. The OP needs to find the right way to seduce her and to start bringing her more pleasure just from the "basics".
> 
> ...


Growing up the position wasn't super exciting always wanted to do positions you don't do often.

But I too greatly appreciate missionary and all of the options available in that position alone...


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## Racer69 (Aug 27, 2010)

Red-Hare

I know exactly how you feel, I'm in the same bed as you but longer. I have been married 30 years this July and we too were both virgins on our wedding night. The first few years were ok, we both were learning and we tried a few different things. It did not take long before I realized we had a major mismatch in our thought on sex. I have felt rejected many times over the years and even been called a pervert many times for wanting to try certain things In our marriage bed. I'm like you, as long as it is between my wife and my self I want to try it. That is what brought me to may of these Marriage web sites trying to see what normal Christian couples do. believe me it have not helped, if anything it has made it worse. I have found out I'm normal but there is nothing I can do about my wife's views on sex. 

I hate what the Catholic Church teaches young men & women about sex. Many of my wife's views on what is ok to do in bed came from religion classes in grade school / high school. also My wife and I attend our Churches reconciliation service, they gave us all a hand out to help us to recognize our sins. Some of the thing listed I totally under stood, but some of them blew me away and my wife looked at me and said SEE. Can someone explain why these would be a sin if it is only between you, your spouse and God.

*"Have I used any method of contraception or artificial birth control'?
*'Have I engaged in sexual fantasies'?
*"Have I been guilty of masturbation"?
*"Have I been guilty of engaging oral sex or other sexual acts without the intent of new life"?
*'Have I lustfully kissed someone"?
*"Has each sexual act in my marriage been open to the transmission of new life"?

If the Catholic Church wants to keep the devoice rate down they should teach that sex is great and to try EVERTHING in the marriage bed with your spouse and if you don't like something laugh about it and try it again in a different way. don't get mad at your spouse for things that have been done between husband and wives for thousands of years. 

Things I have tried that may help you, Some have mentioned Books, we've read “Intimate issues” & "Red Hot Monogamy" these were both good book. I really like a set of books by Laurn Corn "52 Invitations to Grrreat Sex" " 101 Nights of Grrreat Sex" and "101 Nights of Grrreat Romance" in these books you tare out the pages of the book to revile a Fantasy / challenge for you to do with you spouse, some are for the wife and some are for the husband. These were great until my wife tore out a fantasy that was beyond her comfort zone. The books needed to laid out in a progressive order. 

We have gone to 3-marriage weekends with some success (great sex for that weekend) but my wife in the end thinks there is nothing wrong with her sex drive. She is very strong willed. I believe the best one was called "A Weekend to Remember" 

Something new we just started is a Subscription service called "The Fantasy Box" They send you a fantasy in a box every month or every other month. From my e-Mails with them it is progressive in the things they pack in the boxes and it is meant for married couples that need a little help with thing to do in bed. My wife agreed to try the ever other month plan (we have not opened up our first box yet)

Well this has gotten long I hope something helps


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## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

I have never understood these kinds of cases.

It's like trying to turn a TV into an orange. Completely impossible. I had an ex girlfriend who was into every kind of kicky thing you could think of. Then after a year, it was she turned 80. I packed my bags and ran. Thankfully, I did not have two kids and a marriage with her, but that would not have stopped me either. 

There are just way to many women on this planet for a man to be living in a sexless relationship. Women know we feed of sexual energy; they weren't born yesterday. It is like you are being punished for being a good husband. You are a bad guy because you want to enjoy sex with your wife without the issues being forced.

I say, move on. Take care of your kids, yourself, and experiment a little bit before you start dating again. There are 1000's of types of women who are into their own thing. 

And nonsense about asking her where she likes to be touched. If she doesn't like your touch, then find a women who will! Women like her rather not be touched; get it in and get it out so she can move on with her day. 'Normal' women will direct your hand or head to 'their spot' in the midst of doing the act if your not where they like it; there is no need to sound beta and ask like a child.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Red Hare said:


> She hates the idea of a massage (I've actually offered).


Wow. I didn't think there was a woman alive who didn't like a backrub. (for us, yes, it is foreplay sometimes, but not always. My wife jokes sometimes that "yes, I'd like a backrub, but does that mean I have to see your penis?")


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> No one reading your thread questions your commitment level. But your approach is 100% pure male.
> 
> Here's what that means: 90% of what you hear, is based on the words your wife speaks.
> 
> But 90% of her communication to you is via body language, including facial expression and tone of voice. And unless you master that, you will struggle to connect sexually with any woman.


I'm sorry, but I think this is simply giving the wife a free pass to avoid all attempts at honest communication with her husband, which she seems to be doing, and placing the blame for the failure of communication on him. Sure, he needs some sensitivity, but does he have to be psychic? 

What you say about male and female communication styles has a large grain of truth (though my wife is nothing like this, if she wants something she tells me), but he fundamentally needs a willing partner (like you had) and he doesn't have one. A woman who doesn't want a no-strings-attached backrub? What is there to work with here?


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

UPDATE

It's been a few months since I posted this this Summer. I thought I'd post an update for anyone interested.

Unfortunately nothing has really changed. I carefully considered all of the advice that was offered (and I really appreciate everyone's advice!) and tried to adopt the advice that I thought seemed most helpful in my circumstance. I think the most helpful thing would be for us to go to a sex therapist, which she remains adamantly against, wanting instead to talk to the pastor of the church we go to. As I said earlier in this thread, that's not something that I think would be helpful at all. I also tried talking to her about it during a time when we're not in bed. She is completely unwilling to discuss it at all, mostly because the very suggestion that our sex life isn't good makes her defensive and angry. I suggested that she check out the christiannympho website someone suggested, but I'm fairly certain she didn't. All in all, we got nowhere in my attempts to improve our communication about it.

Things carried on as they had for a few months with us having regular (once a week or so) sex. As usual, sex with her is conflicting. Any sex is nice, of course, but when we have the rule-heavy sex we have it's incredibly frustrating and only brings to mind my growing resentment that I did the "right" thing and didn't have sex until marriage. It gnaws at me knowing that there are women out there that actually enjoy sex, and knowing that I've never had a truly enthusiastic sex partner is pretty depressing, honestly.

Things took a bad turn about 3 weeks ago when we started to have sex, then she lost even the minimal amount of interest that she had in what we were doing. She decided to give me a handjob instead of having sex. I told her I wasn't interested in an obligatory handjob from someone obviously not into it and I'd rather wait until some time that she was at least somewhat interested in sex. She tried to insist and I pushed her off of me and got out of bed, frustrated and disappointed but not saying anything to keep the peace. She got upset because, she said, if I wouldn't let her give me a handjob it (the whole encounter) wouldn't "count." I told her to go ahead and check it off on her chore list and I'd give her full credit. My primary complaint has always been that she views sex as a marital duty for her to fulfill instead of something enjoyable to participate in.

For whatever reason, that was pretty much the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. I haven't left her and I probably won't because of the kids, but since then our relationship has changed, perhaps permanently. I haven't since had a desire to do anything sexually with her and it's almost like I view her as an asexual roommate/coparent. I have no desire to hug her, hold her hand or even talk to her about anything other than the children or things related to our home. A few weeks ago I was at a store and there was some lingerie that I liked and I thought about getting it for her (as I have done many, many times over the years.) Then it dawned on me that I didn't really have a desire to give it to her. (It also reminded me that in 15 years of marriage she's never bought any kind of outfit to surprise me in the bedroom and though I've bought her dozens of things over the years she wears the same "tasteful" one on the rare occasions she'll wear something.) During this time, she has indicated, in her own way, that she was open to having sex (never by actually saying anything, of course) but I have no interest whatsoever. I'd love to have sex, mind you, just not with her. 

As a result, there is a massive chill between us. I don't want to talk to her or be around her. I stay at work as late as I can and go on long walks after the kids go to bed. (Hey, I've lost 5 pounds!) I know that she's upset because she realizes that I'm not really intersted in her anymore, and while I don't like making anyone sad, I guess I've just grown cold to her altogether. She's made some efforts to show she cares (leaving a few nice notes for me, etc.) but has done nothing whatsoever to show she is willing to try to improve our sexual relationship or to become more open to sex herself.

While I appreciate her efforts to try to be nice, I don't want a nice little sister and I don't want a maid and I don't want a nanny. I want a romantic partner who wants to have sex with me because it's enjoyable, not so she can check it off of her chore list. I want someone that has some element of mystery in bed instead of a robot who wants to do the bare minimum for it to "count." I want to be with someone who can, from time to time, blow my mind in bed, not someone with whom nearly every sexual encounter constitutes a reminder of the good sex I'm NOT having.

For better or for worse, it looks like this is the hand I dealt myself.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Red Hare said:


> UPDATE


Thanks for the update (though it's not a particularly encouraging one). I'm not in the habit of wondering about the lives of online strangers, but just the other day I wondered how things were going for you.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Your marriage is like a badly burnt pot. Someone has to go to work with steel wool for an hour to get the carbon crude off the steel. It's easier to chuck it.

If you dislike your wife, then divorce her. If you want to repair the situation, then work to make yourself happy. When she sees that you are happy, she will not fear rejection as much. She may genuinely passionate to get close to the happy you.

Why should she become orgasmic beneath the angry and resentful you?

Fish or cut bait. Staying together out of some sense of self sacrifice is pointless.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I think this is a great update. You're on the right track. Continue to distance yourself and separate emotionally from her until eventually you're ok with leaving. Perhaps when the kids are old enough. You still have a chance at happiness. Just not with her.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Your marriage is like a badly burnt pot. Someone has to go to work with steel wool for an hour to get the carbon off the steel. It's easier to chuck it.
> 
> If you dislike your wife, then divorce her. If you want to repair the situation, then work to make yourself happy. When she sees that you are happy, she will not fear rejection as much. She may genuinely passionate to get close to the happy you.
> 
> ...


I don't dislike her, but I'd be lying if I said we have any kind of a romantic relationship at this point. I'm not staying with her out of a sense of self-sacrifice though. I'm staying with her partly because I don't want to be a part-time dad and partly because I don't know that I'm brave enough to leave me bad situation for the unknown. I'm the first to admit that the latter isn't a positive attribute.


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## Melvynman (Mar 19, 2014)

I am just going to give sex advice. I believe in evolution not creation. 

Your wife will be most interested in sex about two after her period. Get her a mid-week massage done by a male. Take her dinner Saturday and bring her home and give her a massage ending with a "Yoni" massage. Be very patient do it right and avoid the "G-spot." If every thing goes well she will be very sexually aroused. If you lucky and have intercourse you can talk to gently about sex and how much you need it! Tell her you love and give it to her hard. Wake up in the morning do her again. Go go church and don't discuss it. 

Do it again next month. The male massage and everything. Talk a little more during sex but only during sex. Take baby steps.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

Melvynman said:


> I am just going to give sex advice. I believe in evolution not creation.
> 
> Your wife will be most interested in sex about two after her period. Get her a mid-week massage done by a male. Take her dinner Saturday and bring her home and give her a massage ending with a "Yoni" massage. Be very patient do it right and avoid the "G-spot." If every thing goes well she will be very sexually aroused. If you lucky and have intercourse you can talk to gently about sex and how much you need it! Tell her you love and give it to her hard. Wake up in the morning do her again. Go go church and don't discuss it.
> 
> Do it again next month. The male massage and everything. Talk a little more during sex but only during sex. Take baby steps.


Thanks for the advice. It's a lengthy thread so I don't expect anyone to read it all before responding, but someone suggested that earlier. The problem is that there is a 0% chance I could get her to receive a massage, especially from a male.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Pretty sad, but I have to agree with the others, you're doing the right thing.

Just be careful not to be rude or passive aggressive. Avoidance and non-involvement (when you don't have to be) aren't passive aggressive if done for the right reasons, i.e. not to hurt, but to save yourself, reduce more resentment and make life more pleasant for yourself.

I'm not advocating leaving her, but how old are your kids? How many more years if you do have to leave? 

When you do have to involve her, be pleasant and helpful but not fake cheery. That's the 180.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Red,

Let me get this straight. You tried - talking....

Even though that has never worked before. 

And now your trying the silent treatment. 

I notice you carefully avoided addressing anything having to do with what your W actually WANTS in bed. 

Most likely she doesn't like having sex with you because she doesn't like the way you have sex with her. 

You can protect your ego, and be mostly celibate. Or you can accept that you are part of the problem and maybe improve things. Your choice. 




QUOTE=Red Hare;10561682]Thanks for the advice. It's a lengthy thread so I don't expect anyone to read it all before responding, but someone suggested that earlier. The problem is that there is a 0% chance I could get her to receive a massage, especially from a male.[/QUOTE]


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> I notice you carefully avoided addressing anything having to do with what your W actually WANTS in bed.


After fifteen years of marriage and countless efforts at communcation, he has perhaps (not unreasonably) reached the conclusion that she doesn't want ANYTHING in bed. (anything she can enjoy without crippling levels of guilt, that is).



MEM11363 said:


> Most likely she doesn't like having sex with you because she doesn't like the way you have sex with her.


You are neglecting the alternative possibility, which is that she doesn't like having sex, period. If the problem is merely that he's a brute who is bad in bed, I think I should point out at this juncture that his wife (reportedly) speaks English, and has had ample opportunity in the last fifteen years to bring this up. The OP has given no sign that he would be unreceptive to any feedback on his performance.

Maybe she's just not attracted to her husband. Maybe she's a lesbian? (this wouldn't be the first marriage this has happened in, by a long shot). Whatever it is, something is not right, and it's way, way, way past the "it's all his fault, he's communicating but he's not communicating right" phase.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Red Hare said:


> I don't dislike her, but I'd be lying if I said we have any kind of a romantic relationship at this point. I'm not staying with her out of a sense of self-sacrifice though. I'm staying with her partly because I don't want to be a part-time dad and partly because I don't know that I'm brave enough to leave me bad situation for the unknown. I'm the first to admit that the latter isn't a positive attribute.


It's precisely because you feel imprisoned that you resent her. Since you recognize that you are the jailer and not your wife, you have power over your own life. You have only to admit that key is always at hand.

Do you feel you cannot woo another woman? Any sober man who holds a job can attract women. There a millions of them.

As to being a part time dad, well right now you're only a part time husband in the sense that you have no fulfilling sex life. Why not be a 50% dad and 100% husband instead a 0% husband who cannot be a 100% parent because you are eaten up inside?

If your wife is not odious and you like her, stop rejecting her when she initiates sex. But if she does, don't let her dictate what you do. Be gentle but firm and do what you want. Go down on her, do her doggy. If she says no, don't get in a huff. Keep your cool, break it off and just cuddle. Stroke her head and whisper sweet nonsense in her ear. Stroke her clit. If she still refuses, tell her you'll try again another day.

Book MC. Tell her the time. Arrange for a babysitter. If she refuses to go, go by yourself and treat it like IC. 

You have to take leadership position. At the moment you have got her attention. Now you have to use that positively.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MM,

First of all, I commend you for clearly delineating the two polar truths that we might be dealing with:
1. She simply hates sex and would hate it with anyone 
2. She hates the way HE has sex with her

I want to emphasize that I originally believed that each of those two truths was equally possible. 

And in the spirit of trying to determine which was the real truth, I made a very specific suggestion to Red.

Let's be clear here, this is the same Red who is vehemently pressing his W to see a sex therapist. 

And my suggestion to Red, was a technique used by sex therapists. 

His response? 

Crickets. Absolute silence. 

--------
Here's a guy who claims to be miserable. Swears that he wants the help of a sex therapist.

And yet, when he is given clear direction on how to improve the sexual experience for his wife - he completely ignores it. What that tells me is that Red wants validation more than he wants honest feedback. 

And that's part of the reason he is afraid of starting all over. 

------
All that said. His wife might be a bit difficult. I believe that. But she isn't here. Red is. And from what I'm seeing, he's absolutely unwilling to focus on what SHE wants in a determined and concerted manner. 

And that's on him........




MarriedManInHis40s said:


> After fifteen years of marriage and countless efforts at communcation, he has perhaps (not unreasonably) reached the conclusion that she doesn't want ANYTHING in bed. (anything she can enjoy without crippling levels of guilt, that is).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> MM,
> And from what I'm seeing, he's absolutely unwilling to focus on what SHE wants in a determined and concerted manner.
> 
> And that's on him........


And her complete and absolute unwillingness to volunteer any clues whatsoever in this department (in over 15 years of increasingly extravagant invitations from Red to do so) isn't on her?

I grant you that there are different communication styles and Red might be strong at some of them (he's coming across as very intelligent and open-minded, and a strong writer) and weak at others. However, if Red feels like he has to study his wife's body language with the intensity of a Talmudic scholar in order to learn what (if anything) she wants, I'm not surprised he's feeling a bit resentful, especially since everything else he's told us about her (proud of not drinking, proud of not watching "sinful" television, proud of rejecting massages) suggests very strongly that he's not going to find what he's looking for; she simply disapproves of pleasure of any kind. (The only time she really gets off on sex is when she pretends she's with someone else, and if that's not a red flag, I don't know what is).

So, yes, maybe he's already mentally checked out and is just looking for validation at this point. I don't blame him. It sounds like his wife now realizes (finally!) that their marriage is in jeopardy. If she doesn't like sex, she'd better learn how to start helping him make it better, or she'll find herself looking for a new husband.


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## ellaenchanted (Sep 7, 2014)

I really don't understand some women! My boyfriend complains that I want sex too much 😞


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MM,
This is actually a completely valid viewpoint. And it might be accurate.

That said, let me turn this around. 

For 15 years her body language has been clear: I don't like this, please hurry up and get it over with.

---------
And for 15 years he's been on and off complaining while continuing to do something she clearly doesn't seem to like. 
---------

I have this theory. Goes like this:
If sex is something I do WITH you, than we very rarely have bad sex. Because if it's bad for you, I notice at which point it becomes bad for ME and I STOP. 

If sex is something I do TO you, then bad sex (bad for you) might be the norm....







MarriedManInHis40s said:


> And her complete and absolute unwillingness to volunteer any clues whatsoever in this department (in over 15 years of increasingly extravagant invitations from Red to do so) isn't on her?
> 
> I grant you that there are different communication styles and Red might be strong at some of them (he's coming across as very intelligent and open-minded, and a strong writer) and weak at others. However, if Red feels like he has to study his wife's body language with the intensity of a Talmudic scholar in order to learn what (if anything) she wants, I'm not surprised he's feeling a bit resentful, especially since everything else he's told us about her (proud of not drinking, proud of not watching "sinful" television, proud of rejecting massages) suggests very strongly that he's not going to find what he's looking for; she simply disapproves of pleasure of any kind. (The only time she really gets off on sex is when she pretends she's with someone else, and if that's not a red flag, I don't know what is).
> 
> So, yes, maybe he's already mentally checked out and is just looking for validation at this point. I don't blame him. It sounds like his wife now realizes (finally!) that their marriage is in jeopardy. If she doesn't like sex, she'd better learn how to start helping him make it better, or she'll find herself looking for a new husband.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Mem, this feel a bit like kicking him when he's down. 

He's made a concerted effort. The thing that is so frustrating about this site is that a man can always allow himself to feel if he just tries one more thing, or changes his behaviour in one way, that it will turn the corner.

I also have a theory that men who happened to have married woman that a) will communicate and b) enjoy sex, give themselves more credit than they deserve for their sparkling relationships and masterful handling of women.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> I have this theory. Goes like this:
> If sex is something I do WITH you, than we very rarely have bad sex. Because if it's bad for you, I notice at which point it becomes bad for ME and I STOP.


There is an unfortunate corollary to this theorem, which that if EVERYTHING sexual is "bad" for me, then you never get to have sex. "Sucks to be you", as the kids say these days. 



> seeking sanity: I also have a theory that men *who happened to have married woman that a) will communicate and b) enjoy sex*, give themselves more credit than they deserve for their sparkling relationships and masterful handling of women.


:iagree:
The corollary being: if a man happened to marry a woman who will NOT communicate and does NOT enjoy sex (which, after 15 years of marriage, Red is in a good position to judge) it's hard to say he deserves much (if any) of the blame for their lousy sex life


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I read part of your thread but not all of it. I came across a post where you and your wife had talked, and you asked her for fantasies, and she told you that if she did make up a fantasy it would still be about you, her husband. You seemed to feel that was "too vanilla" or something. Anyway in case this helps, maybe have her (and yourself) check out this blog:

Married Erotica | Sensual tales of marital bliss.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Seeking,

If you look back, I told him to put it entirely on her. Do a mirroring exercise. 

As for doubting his technique, recently a man on here posted:

There is no such thing as bad sex, only degrees of good to great sex. 

1. That is rubbish
2. For women it's much more often rubbish







seeking sanity said:


> Mem, this feel a bit like kicking him when he's down.
> 
> He's made a concerted effort. The thing that is so frustrating about this site is that a man can always allow himself to feel if he just tries one more thing, or changes his behaviour in one way, that it will turn the corner.
> 
> I also have a theory that men who happened to have married woman that a) will communicate and b) enjoy sex, give themselves more credit than they deserve for their sparkling relationships and masterful handling of women.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I usually agree with MEM but in this thread I'm afraid he's on the wrong side of things.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> MM,
> That said, let me turn this around.
> 
> For 15 years her body language has been clear: I don't like this, please hurry up and get it over with.
> ...





MarriedManInHis40s said:


> There is an unfortunate corollary to this theorem, which that if EVERYTHING sexual is "bad" for me, then you never get to have sex. "Sucks to be you", as the kids say these days.


I agree with MEM 100%. I have never in my life did something sexually that made anyone feel bad and I never will. That's a promise.

The unfortunate corollary is correct and that moment was the right time to start moving away.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

TheStranger said:


> The unfortunate corollary is correct and that moment was the right time to start moving away.


Except that when he does finally start moving away the peanut gallery comes in and starts telling him how crappy he is.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Seeking,
> 
> If you look back, I told him to put it entirely on her. Do a mirroring exercise.
> 
> ...


then whose problem is that, really?
There are plenty of women out there that love sex, who can comfortably communicate their likes and dislikes to their partners, who arent inhibited or repressed by relgious bullpie...

for men, bad sex is still great...much like pizza
for SOME women, the stars have to alighn and magic needs to happen...it just aint worth ot

this isnt meant to flame the op, but....this is why you do NOT marry virgins...if you are uber religious and HAVE to remain a virgin, and have to marry a virgin, than you better not be expecting jenna jamison porn sex...sheesh

she doesnt sound like she can change...so either you deal with it, you move on, or you cheat...not condoning any of these by the way, especially the dealing with it


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> MM,
> This is actually a completely valid viewpoint. And it might be accurate.
> 
> That said, let me turn this around.
> ...


Remember that old generalization: Women give sex to get love but men give love to get sex? Over time, this is the dynamic that has developed in their sex life. She has settled into the belief that he only loves her if she gives him sex, and this has her feeling like it is an obligatory chore. And he has settled into the idea that if he demonstrates enough love in other ways, the sex should naturally follow, and gets frustrated when it does not.

This attitude has them both thinking that sex is all about HIM. She gives it, and he receives it, and his pleasure has become the whole point of the exercise. No wonder it feels like yet another item on a list of chores for her. As described above, however, sex should be something that both partners mutually enjoy and offer to one another.

He needs to find a way to make the sex all about her for a while. So this means he needs to understand HER libido for a change. Lingerie may not make her feel sexy. Maybe having a clean house and a good night's rest on a regular basis does. Maybe she needs lots of arousal time before she feels sexy; he should catch her at a good time after they've watched a sexy scene during a movie, or if she's reading a book that has a sex scene, when she's already a bit warmed up to the idea. Is she on hormonal birth control? That sometimes dampens libido in women. Maybe he can get a vasectomy so she can go off the pill.

If all he's doing is whining about how she isn't being a very good sex partner and expecting her to change, he's not improving anything, he's worsening the situation. He's got to change his attitude about sex in general. Even if he divorces her and meets new women, those new relationships won't last past the initial limerence phases unless his attitude improves to encompass making sex enjoyable for his partner.

He'll probably get defensive and say he does offer oral or massage or whatever, but his underlying attitude probably still comes across that this is a means to his own end, not hers.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

NOW we're talking. 

Red says she won't let him into her head. 

But - and I don't mean to be crude: 

When a woman doesn't like the way you engage in sexual contact 101 (kissing, touch based foreplay) it's a bad idea to complain about HER level of engagement. 

There is no shame in saying: Kiss ME the way you want me to kiss YOU.

Touch ME the way you want me to touch YOU. 

And separate from that, find out what's jamming the channel during sex. Is she worrying about x,y,z when you connect? Instead of focusing and being 'in the moment'. 






Hopeful Cynic said:


> Remember that old generalization: Women give sex to get love but men give love to get sex? Over time, this is the dynamic that has developed in their sex life. She has settled into the belief that he only loves her if she gives him sex, and this has her feeling like it is an obligatory chore. And he has settled into the idea that if he demonstrates enough love in other ways, the sex should naturally follow, and gets frustrated when it does not.
> 
> This attitude has them both thinking that sex is all about HIM. She gives it, and he receives it, and his pleasure has become the whole point of the exercise. No wonder it feels like yet another item on a list of chores for her. As described above, however, sex should be something that both partners mutually enjoy and offer to one another.
> 
> ...


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> T The OP needs to find the right way to seduce her and to start bringing her more pleasure just from the "basics".
> 
> I'll give a little bit of personal info to illustrate my point. I love variety as much as the next guy. But lately, my wife and I have been doing missionary probably 80% of the time now since December of last year. IMHO, it's an underrated sex position, and I'm sad to say that I wasted time not learning to appreciate this position more (although, losing weight has helped make this position better for us too...). There is SO MUCH variation you can do with "boring old missionary". You can "ride high and support yourself with your hands to watch the ecstasy on her face, you can close to her by supporting yourself on your forearms to kiss her on the lips, neck, etc. You can modify and get into the CAT, you can have her rock her hips up to allow you to hit that spot deep inside and even gently touch the cervix, you can go shallower and rub the G spot, you can grind. It's become freaking awesome.
> 
> ...


Hope you don't mind if I borrow the last two lines for my signature (with attribution of course! )


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> I see this a little differently. This is a common deception - a man marry's a virtuous sexually repressed woman. After a bit of wedding cake and a few drinks, he develops a taste for raunchy, dirty girls, just the kind of girl he never considered marriage material.
> 
> His poor wife is subjected to badgering, coercion, anger, name-calling, threats of D, constant unrelenting pressure to perform and expressions of dissatisfaction. She does not understand what happened to the man that loved her for the person she is. Now he hates her for it.
> 
> ...


^^Yep. If I was her, I'd feel bait and switched regarding M. My Bible says an H is supposed to "nourish and cherish".


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I've read almost all of your posts and a few responses.




Red Hare said:


> UPDATE
> 
> It's been a few months since I posted this this Summer. I thought I'd post an update for anyone interested.
> 
> Unfortunately nothing has really changed. I carefully considered all of the advice that was offered (and I really appreciate everyone's advice!) and tried to adopt the advice that I thought seemed most helpful in my circumstance. I think the most helpful thing would be for us to go to a sex therapist, which she remains adamantly against, wanting instead to talk to the pastor of the church we go to. As I said earlier in this thread, that's not something that I think would be helpful at all.



Talk about passive aggressive! Your marriage is a sinking ship, take any life line that comes along! Everything has to be your way or you feel anger, bitter and resentful then shut down on her. Yeah, totally sexy, not.



> I also tried talking to her about it during a time when we're not in bed. She is completely unwilling to discuss it at all, mostly because the very suggestion that our sex life isn't good makes her defensive and angry. I suggested that she check out the christiannympho website someone suggested, but I'm fairly certain she didn't. All in all, we got nowhere in my attempts to improve our communication about it.


Again, it's you telling her what you want HER to do for you. How about asking her if she is fully satisfied with your sex life? How about asking her if she has any thoughts or ideas about improving your sex life?



> Things carried on as they had for a few months with us having regular (once a week or so) sex. As usual, sex with her is conflicting. Any sex is nice, of course, but when we have the rule-heavy sex we have it's incredibly frustrating and only brings to mind my growing resentment that I did the "right" thing and didn't have sex until marriage. It gnaws at me knowing that there are women out there that actually enjoy sex, and knowing that I've never had a truly enthusiastic sex partner is pretty depressing, honestly.


I understand feeling like this, I really do. 



> Things took a bad turn about 3 weeks ago when we started to have sex, then she lost even the minimal amount of interest that she had in what we were doing.


Why? What happened?



> She decided to give me a handjob instead of having sex. I told her I wasn't interested in an obligatory handjob from someone obviously not into it and I'd rather wait until some time that she was at least somewhat interested in sex.


While I totally can see how you could reach the end of your rope, your response clearly communicates rejection. Yes, I get that you felt rejected first so you turned it back on her and rejected her. 

Bet that made you feel powerful?



> She tried to insist and I pushed her off of me and got out of bed, frustrated and disappointed but not saying anything to keep the peace. She got upset because, she said, if I wouldn't let her give me a handjob it (the whole encounter) wouldn't "count." *I told her to go ahead and check it off on her chore list and I'd give her full credit. *My primary complaint has always been that she views sex as a marital duty for her to fulfill instead of something enjoyable to participate in.
> 
> For whatever reason, that was pretty much the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. I haven't left her and I probably won't because of the kids, but since then our relationship has changed, perhaps permanently. I haven't since had a desire to do anything sexually with her and it's almost like I view her as an asexual roommate/coparent. *I have no desire to hug her, hold her hand or even talk to her about anything other than the children or things related to our home. *


And the power tripping disconnect begins....




> A few weeks ago I was at a store and there was some lingerie that I liked and I thought about getting it for her (as I have done many, many times over the years.) Then it dawned on me that I didn't really have a desire to give it to her. (It also reminded me that in 15 years of marriage she's never bought any kind of outfit to surprise me in the bedroom and though I've bought her dozens of things over the years she wears the same "tasteful" one on the rare occasions she'll wear something.) During this time, she has indicated, in her own way, that she was open to having sex (never by actually saying anything, of course) but I have no interest whatsoever. I'd love to have sex, mind you, just not with her.


Your wife is an uptight, highly repressed religious fundamentalist and you are gonna pout because she doesn't buy from Vicky's? Dude, your really reaching here. You're not allowed to touch her breasts and your gonna add "doesn't buy sexy things to wear for me" on your list of complaints?



> As a result, there is a massive chill between us. I don't want to talk to her or be around her. I stay at work as late as I can and go on long walks after the kids go to bed. (Hey, I've lost 5 pounds!) I know that she's upset because she realizes that I'm not really intersted in her anymore, and while I don't like making anyone sad, I guess I've just grown cold to her altogether. She's made some efforts to show she cares (leaving a few nice notes for me, etc.) but has done nothing whatsoever to show she is willing to try to improve our sexual relationship or to become more open to sex herself.
> 
> While I appreciate her efforts to try to be nice, I don't want a nice little sister and I don't want a maid and I don't want a nanny. I want a romantic partner who wants to have sex with me because it's enjoyable, not so she can check it off of her chore list. I want someone that has some element of mystery in bed instead of a robot who wants to do the bare minimum for it to "count." I want to be with someone who can, from time to time, blow my mind in bed, not someone with whom nearly every sexual encounter constitutes a reminder of the good sex I'm NOT having.
> 
> For better or for worse, it looks like this is the hand I dealt myself.


Okay so you have been given COUNTLESS words of excellent advice and ignored it. You want what you want and you want it now.

You expect your wife to simply shed years of enforced inhibitions and go down on you or let you go down on her but you won't even take the time and trouble to sort of meet her in the middle?

Go see the damn preacher for crying out loud!
Show love to your wife and work with the excellent advice MEM and Catherine have given you.

While reading your thread it occurred to me that your wife is not opening up to sex because you're not turning her on. Your too aggressive and not smooth enough. You progressed too quickly too many times and she lacked the skills to get you to slow down. So instead of opening her up to the joys and beauty of sex you helped seal the lid and now that you've gone full out passive aggressive power tripping you are standing on the lid to ensure a proper air tight seal.

Good luck with that.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon, with all due respect, you don't seem to understand the mechanics or thought processes of advanced stage LD's. 

I have explained my personal observations and I don't think this is much different. The LD in question simply does not want more sex. Does not want sex to be precise. Not with her partner, not with Harrison Ford, not with Johnny Depp, not with anyone. 

It's easy to blame technique or approach or dating methodology or any of the many other legit reasons that NORMAL people are turned off due to them.

But, BEYOND normal, there's this gray area where the rules don't seem to apply as well. 

The assumption is that everyone likes sex. Well, I hate to break this to the collective, it ain't so for a good number of LD's. There are many reasons, some of which can be overcome and most of which can't. 

One can try, but eventually the standard protocols fail epically and we see the aftermath on TAM. 

If we take the clinical model that assumes everything is treatable - for a price - we may have some success once in a while but most of the time the results of the standard treatment approaches are not favorable. OP's case has do many red flags it could have its own bullfight. 

Decades of demonizing sex are rearing their ugly head and we are surprised by the results?

I'm not saying OP has done much right, mind you, so I agree wholeheartedly with your previous post, but even if he had done everything Athol-perfect I kind of doubt the outcome would be much different.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

AP,

I honestly believe you have captured the essence of the problem.

Red had no experience before marriage and never learned that 
pacing is incredibly important with a woman. 

After she's aroused, touch a woman a certain way and she loves it. Do so before arousal and she hates it. 

I'd take 5-1 odds Red doesn't get the pacing thing because his wife doesn't like having her breasts touched. 





Anon Pink said:


> I've read almost all of your posts and a few responses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Redhare. I think you have changed over the years and that has driven a wedge between you and your wife. The change in your sexual taste conflicts with your wife's basic values. She remains the conservative, sexually controlled good girl you married. You have become sexually liberated and now desirous of a sexually liberated woman. Your mistake is to expect your wife to change to suit your fantasy. It's a mistake because it is not fair to her. To hear the way you treat her makes me want to cry for her. 

You have options therefore, you not a victim. I'm am not so sure your wife is not the one stuck in a bad situation. You can be loving and respectful towards the woman you married and stop making her the problem. Make love to her and stop demanding that she become your fantasy woman. 

Another option is to leave your wife and children and look for a woman who is willing to give you sex to your specifications.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,

I'm not so sure this is even about her being repressed. 

I sort of come back to this: if your wife mostly doesn't want you touching her body (including breasts), that's likely due to her not enjoying the experience as opposed to her having religious hang ups. 

So, if beginner sex is a busy, the focus needs to be getting in synch on beginner sex. 

Not demanding intermediate sex. 

The fact that Red wants his wife (who he admits doesn't really like basic sex) to blow him - tells me a lot about Red. 





QUOTE=Catherine602;10574170]Redhare. I think you have changed over the years and that has driven a wedge between you and your wife. The change in your sexual taste conflicts with your wife's basic values. She remains the conservative, sexually controlled good girl you married. You have become sexually liberated and now desirous of a sexually liberated woman. Your mistake is to expect your wife to change to suit your fantasy. It's a mistake because it is not fair to her. To hear the way you treat her makes me want to cry for her. 

You have options therefore, you not a victim. I'm am not so sure your wife is not the one stuck in a bad situation. You can be loving and respectful towards the woman you married and stop making her the problem. Make love to her and stop demanding that she become your fantasy woman. 

Another option is to leave your wife and children and look for a woman who is willing to give you sex to your specifications.[/QUOTE]


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> Anon, with all due respect, you don't seem to understand the mechanics or thought processes of advanced stage LD's.
> 
> I have explained my personal observations and I don't think this is much different. The LD in question simply does not want more sex. Does not want sex to be precise. Not with her partner, not with Harrison Ford, not with Johnny Depp, not with anyone.
> 
> ...


John, the advance stage LD has been grandfathered in. Her sex drive has never been watered, fertilized, nor the big one...WEEDED!

I don't blame the poor guy and feeling totally frustrated and I don't fault him for the mistakes that were undoubtedly made many times. I think he tried, in his own way, to get her to open up.

But he didn't try other ways. MEM's way, Catherine's way, Plan's way and worst of all, he didn't try her way. 

I think he should continue to not try for sex, but turning cold toward her is punishing her and that isn't going to get him anything good at all!


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

It sure seems like a lot of people here are telling Red to suck it up and be happy with less. Unfortunately that's not something he can control.

Maybe you think that's not what you're saying but I'm pretty sure that's how most guys in Reds situation will read it.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> Redhare. I think you have changed over the years and that has driven a wedge between you and your wife. The change in your sexual taste conflicts with your wife's basic values. She remains the conservative, sexually controlled good girl you married. You have become sexually liberated and now desirous of a sexually liberated woman. Your mistake is to expect your wife to change to suit your fantasy. It's a mistake because it is not fair to her. To hear the way you treat her makes me want to cry for her.
> 
> You have options therefore, you not a victim. I'm am not so sure your wife is not the one stuck in a bad situation. You can be loving and respectful towards the woman you married and stop making her the problem. Make love to her and stop demanding that she become your fantasy woman.
> 
> Another option is to leave your wife and children and look for a woman who is willing to give you sex to your specifications.


I'd like her to be my "fantasy woman" but I don't demand it. What I do want is for her to be a sexual being. She doesn't have to fulfill every conceivable fantasy I may have, but I do want her to be open to at least some of the normal, usual things that nearly everyone else includes in their sexual relationships.

I also disagree that I changed about sex. I always wanted to have great sex during marriage, a fact that I specifically addressed with her and thought she was in agreement with. I guess my mistake was thinking somehow we'd work things out if we loved each other and were married. She knew that before we got married and I must assume she thought that somehow I would lie on top of her and put my "penis" in her and a be oh so happy she was willing to lie there to fulfill her marital duty. She didn't tell me this, of course, but to be fair I didn't specifically ask it either.

In some ways I've changed, but so has she. I enjoy drinking and wish she'd have a glass of wine with me sometimes. (Even though I didn't drink when we got married neither of us believed drinking itself is wrong. I drank quite a bit in my high school and early college days and she drank from time to time in college, too.) On her part, when we were dating and first got married we would watch movies together. It's only recently that she became the PG movie prude. I really haven't changed; though I don't watch just anything, I'm an adult so adult themes in quality movies and shows don't bother me.

Several people have suggested that the issue is really that I'm inexperienced or insensitive in bed. I can't deny that I'm inexperienced in some ways because she's the only woman I've been with and the repertoire is incredibly basic. I don't agree with the latter though. I've asked and asked and asked if there's anything she'd like me to do or to do differently. It's possible that there is some secret (but god forbid not "kinky") thing that I could do that would drive her crazy in bed, but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to figure it out if she won't at least give me a hint. I've trying going slowly and she doesn't like that. She wants all of 60 seconds of foreplay before she wants me to get started and she gets angry if I don't. I've tried being romantic with candles, music, etc. and, while she wasn't offended by it, didn't respond any differently. I suggested the "mirroring" exercise someone on her suggested and she refused. Honestly, I don't think I've failed to be open to any constructive suggestion anyone has ever made.

Not that I can claim complete innocence to the charge of being passive aggressive in no longer being physically affectionate with her. It's true that at least some part of me wants to get her attention, to let her know that just because I don't bring it up constantly that I'm somehow satisfied with our dysfunctional sexual relationship. (If only she truly understood how close I am to walking away from her perhaps she'd make some effort herself to improve things.) Though that may be true in part, it's also true that the reason I'm not affectionate with her anymore is that I just don't want to be. She has worked so hard to neuter herself sexually that I think she's finally succeeded.

Did I bring this on myself by marrying a virgin? I don't think marrying a virgin and marrying a prude are necessarily the same thing. Call me crazy but I believe married people can actually have great sex. I don't think by waiting for marriage (foolish decision or not) that I somehow waived the opportunity to have a fulfilling sexual relationship with someone I'm in love with. Am I being selfish and closed minded for declining to talk to a baptist preacher about a sex problem? I don't think so. I think I'm being reasonable, honestly. Ultimately, I've never taken the position that I've been a perfect husband, but I can confidently say that I've been open to any reasonable means of improving the most dissatisfying thing in our relationship, our sex life.

Being as candid and introspective as I can be, I really think the only reason I'm still with her at this point is that I can't bear the idea of having the "talk" with our kids who would be devastated if we divorced. To a lesser extent I know she would be devastated too and even though I don't think we'll ever be happy together as a married couple I care about her and don't want to hurt her. But in the back of my mind I keep thinking that I should have left her ten years ago and I could actually be with someone who is a life partner and not just a parenting partner. I can't help but wonder if we wouldn't both be better off. Perhaps the only thing that stands between me and the opportunity to have a fulfilling relationship is my own cowardice.

That's something I've wrestled with more and more in the past few months.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Could it be that OP knows what will work or not work with Mrs. OP better than everyone else?

Not liking simple things done in the process of intimacy is a red flag. I'm not talking triple Fifty Shades type stuff here... Breasts were part of sex long before any "sexual liberation". 

Her rigid approach has but one purpose which seems to elude the audience. To keep "sex" in the marriage but with enough strings attached to make it meaningless and non enjoyable so as to discourage any attempt to explore boundaries and options. The ultimate goal in another decade would be to end it altogether. 

Granted, OP is not earning any bonus points for trying to suggest light bondage and the like while she's limited action to the equivalent of inkjet "starter cartridges". There's a heavy dose of reality needed for the both of them. 

OP nailed it when he said "opposed to everything". That's the same approach taken by various organizations that are very strongly pro this or pro that.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

In rare cases, the hesitation you feel means you know, KNOW, there are more avenues to explore to get her to losen up.

Her restrictions are, I completely agree, absurd. 

So at this point what have you got to loose if you go talk to her minister person. What have you got to loose if you spell it out for him, man to man, that the virginity message given to your wife from birth onward, and the modesty message and the virtue message has all become one single message and that is passionless obligatory missionary once a week snooze fest! Spell it out for this guy and MAYBE...just maybe, he can quote some biblical stuff in support of he letting go on her inhibitions and embracing her sexual self.

However, once she gets that message, it will take a good 2-3 years of working the unlearning before she can really claim to be a sexual woman.

If you can't do that, it would be a kindness to end it. You're going to make her miserable.

Man, nothing gets me angrier than passionless couple all because the virginity message got screwed up, and the husband won't look under every rock and turn every page to help her rid herself of the image of wife and mother equals not sexual.

Tell that to your minister person and perhaps he can start addresses how that message gets to the young people and what it ultimately does to them.

In fact, I'd like to have a few words with him too!


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Does this minister care about his parishioners' sexual fulfilment? He wants to see the tithe full. If you go and talk with him instead of a professional therapist, you risk getting bad advice. However, going now might be a good thing, if your wife will admit that she losing you. You should not make explicit threats to bolster your position. Just let your wife talk. All you need to say that is that you agree with your wife that your marriage going in the wrong direction.

If the pastor is any good, he'll tell your wife to rethink her attitude towards sex in marriage.

You are quite articulate and not afraid of self knowledge. Therefore you are doing yourself a disservice by accepting the situation as it is.

1) Admit that divorce is a very real possibility;
2) Take that realization as empowering. Once you see that you are not doomed to an unhappy marriage, you can seek happiness on your own, at first without divorce.
3) Send your wife a self confident message that you are going to be happy. If she wants to join you that is her choice. If she does, too bad.
4) Don't turn your wife down. Now that you have her anxious because you've stopped initiating, change the dynamic in your approach to sex. Insist on foreplay. No begging. If she says no. Tell her good night, but don't lose your temper. Reject all hand jobs that are duty sex.

Will she let you suck and kiss her nipples? Do it right and she may go crazy.

Do you respect your wife as a person? She seems extremely judgmental and conflicted. She cannot stand movies with nudity or sex?

Does she read romance fiction?

How much TV does she watch?


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

Red Hare said:


> I'm still a religious person, but I really don't know that I could push "waiting until marriage" on my kids at this point. There are lots of downsides to premarital sex, of course, but I really think my wife and I would both be happier now if we'd each married someone more sexually compatible. I try to have faith, but it's really hard when dealing with a lousy sex life, especially when we're both really committed to staying married for life.



there is, in general, nothing wrong with being strongly religious. However, when religious beliefs stray from thoughts of god and rest on thoughts of sin....that is where one has to ask "what right does man have to tell us what god would/would not want us to do?"

It is not against any of the 10 commandments to have sex with your wife. The bible is full of religious people having all sorts of begetting!

So, just because some priest/minister/rabbi.....tells you that certain sex acts are "bad", or that you are sinning when doing them, is just their arrogant folly. 

You were obviously in the fog of that Man-made interpretation of what some church said was good/bad when you were younger. Now, that you have reasoned things out as an adult, you see the folly of your younger self. 

Your wife, unfortunately, has not seen the light. She is a good little girl. Does not want any sin on her soul. You of all people should have know this from your abstinence before marriage. 

So, you are stuck in an ultra religious marriage, of your own choice. You want to try kinky sex now, there is no way your wife will want to try it. You are at an impasse.

Since this is such a change from your former self, and her upbringing, it sounds like a bait and switch on your part on your poor wife. You are causing her much pain. To get her to accept new kinky behavior, you have to strip away her religious training, and morals that have been instilled in her for 30 years. Is that really fair to her. 

If i were in your shoes, i would be happy with wifely religious type sex, and fulfill your sexual "perversions" online, and never again speak to her about it. You are causing her much pain. The other option is to divorce her, but that would cause her more pain, and possibly a religious dilemma.

Its too bad you were confused by men preaching such gibberish to you during your youth. But a leopard can not change its spots. You two are leopards.

And for God's sake, make sure your kids are not brought up thinking such insane drivel.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Red Hare said:


> While I appreciate her efforts to try to be nice, I don't want a nice little sister and I don't want a maid and I don't want a nanny. I want a romantic partner who wants to have sex with me because it's enjoyable, not so she can check it off of her chore list. I want someone that has some element of mystery in bed instead of a robot who wants to do the bare minimum for it to "count." I want to be with someone who can, from time to time, blow my mind in bed, not someone with whom nearly every sexual encounter constitutes a reminder of the good sex I'm NOT having.


You should tell her this every chance you get. You are doing great. Reject her ideas about bad sex within marriage. Reject her sexually if she is boring in bed. The key to getting what you want is knowing specifically what you want (above quote), and rejecting all else. Guess what? If your wife wants her marriage to you, she will deliver on what it is you want and need, as long as you accept nothing else. The only thing I would advise you is to be clear with her that there is a path back into your "zone of care", and she knows what it is.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Maybe she needs lots of arousal time before she feels sexy; he should catch her at a good time after they've watched a sexy scene during a movie, or if she's reading a book that has a sex scene....


Red has already told us that his wife would never be willing to read or watch such material, so that's out.

Red should just clean the house, shut up, stop making sexual advances, and be patient, and maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, someday, his wife will start to enjoy sex, even though she has never done a single thing in her life to give him any hope that this might be the case. 

Sounds like a one-way express ticket to Sexless Marriage Station. It seems a lot of people here think he should be happy with that.



> Red Hare: *I've asked and asked and asked if there's anything she'd like me to do or to do differently. It's possible that there is some secret (but god forbid not "kinky") thing that I could do that would drive her crazy in bed, but I'm not sure how I'm supposed to figure it out if she won't at least give me a hint. I've trying going slowly and she doesn't like that. She wants all of 60 seconds of foreplay before she wants me to get started and she gets angry if I don't. I've tried being romantic with candles, music, etc. and, while she wasn't offended by it, didn't respond any differently. I suggested the "mirroring" exercise someone on her suggested and she refused. Honestly, I don't think I've failed to be open to any constructive suggestion anyone has ever made.*


Quoted for emphasis. Some of the condescending responses Red has gotten here really rubbed me the wrong way. His wife (in spite of her perfect command of English) bears *no responsibility whatsoever* for improving communication in their marriage. No matter what happens in their marriage, no matter what communication breakdowns exist, they're entirely his fault. He's too fast. He's too slow. He's too rough. He's too gentle. He's too impatient. He drags it out instead of just getting on with it. He's getting resentful and that hurts her feelings, which is also his fault of course. Welcome to TAM.

That said, I second the suggestion that Red say "what the heck" and go see the pastor. Frankly, I don't think it's likely to help, but what do you have to lose at this point? As someone else wrote, Red is introspective and not afraid of self knowledge, so he shouldn't accept the situation as it is. If you divorce, you want to know that you tried everything first.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

See the pastor alone and get his input - for all you know he may simply be echoing the party line - missionary  - and any alternatives are futile...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> Red has already told us that his wife would never be willing to read or watch such material, so that's out.
> 
> Red should just clean the house, shut up, stop making sexual advances, and be patient, and maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, someday, his wife will start to enjoy sex, even though she has never done a single thing in her life to give him any hope that this might be the case.
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone has suggested he accept this situation and be happy with it. No one would be happy with this situation!

I don't think anyone has suggested he bears all responsibility and his wife none.

There are several women on TAM who began married life as a sexually dysfunctioning woman, repressed and closed off. For a host of reasons, married sex became distasteful and highly avoided.

She *can* recover from this. She can do it on her own, or with her husbands help. But FIRST she has to WANT to become more sexually open. She has to understand the goodness and rightness in being sexual, erotic, aroused and desirous. She has to allow herself to BE aroused. She has to want to reach for arousal and want to embrace those naughty sexual thoughts that flit through her mind.

But that won't happen until she understand that her sexual refusal, her refusal to FEEL aroused or be aroused, isn't how a GOOD wife loves her husband. She has to understand and agree that a GOOD wife reaches for her own sexual pleasure during love making.

And a minister/reverend/spiritual leader is just the person to tell her this considering it is the very same religious teaching that has caused her to misunderstand the meaning of virtue.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Red Hare said:


> If I deviate from the "script" (basically 2 minutes of mostly dry kisses (because she claims she doesn't "need" foreplay) followed by me putting my "penis" in her and trying to finish in 3 or 4 minutes)


^^That would not give me an O. Sex should be mutual. If it's not mutual no wonder your W never took a liking to it!!!

What is wrong with Plan 9's suggestion that you bring her home with missionary? Missionary is my favorite, it is the most intimate to arrive face to face and simultaneously. It takes great control and skill on H's part.

Why are you opposed to seeing the pastor? I'm impressed that your W would take that step when she seems so shy. It makes me wonder what you are afraid of? I have a strong feeling that your porn use is an elephant in the room here and the pastor is going to call you out on that. 

You have a huge chip on your shoulder toward your W that comes through in your posts. She can feel that and it does not foster warm romantic feelings... My H had that huge chip when he was using porn. His satisfaction with our sex life improved dramatically when he quit the porn. Even the atheist Kay preaches against porn: High Fructose Porn Syrup | Married Man Sex Life

I am a Christian who M a Christian and (like your W) I don't want my children exposed to raunchy TV, movies, internet... Had flack for my morals on various occasions but I'm not ashamed of myself. I feel good about protecting my children. 

My advice is to D if you can't appreciate and value your W. Living with the constant atmosphere of resentment is going to suck the life out of her.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Red Hare said:


> Oral sex (giving or receiving)
> Any kind of anal touching or sex
> Bedroom toys of any kind
> Anything that involves ejaculate ending up anywhere outside her vagina
> ...


My nipples are very erogenous and I LOVE H playing with them during the act but absolutely HATE being assaulted and molested when I am doing dishes or laundry or climbing on a ladder... There is a time and place for erotic touching.

Take your list to the pastor. I really think you need to make the marriage BED a place of pleasure and mutual satisfaction and the stuff on your list is from too much porn (the secular trained Christian M counselor told me that the demand for certain acts- on your list- is symptomatic of porn use)

Flame away but most of that stuff on your list is not in our repertoire and we have had thousands of mutual O's and H is quite happy with our frequent and mutually satisfying sex life (now that he quit the porn).


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Blonde said:


> ^^That would not give me an O. Sex should be mutual. If it's not mutual no wonder your W never took a liking to it!!!
> 
> What is wrong with Plan 9's suggestion that you bring her home with missionary? Missionary is my favorite, it is the most intimate to arrive face to face and simultaneously. It takes great control and skill on H's part.
> 
> ...


The post you quoted, that you said you could not O from, is the type of sex his wife demands.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> But that won't happen until she understand that her sexual refusal, her refusal to FEEL aroused or be aroused, isn't how a GOOD wife loves her husband. She has to understand and agree that a GOOD wife reaches for her own sexual pleasure during love making.
> 
> And a minister/reverend/spiritual leader is just the person to tell her this considering it is the very same religious teaching that has caused her to misunderstand the meaning of virtue.


Fair point. I would be delighted on Red's behalf if that were the pastor's message, but I think Red is worried (rightly or wrongly) that that will not be the pastor's message. Instead, he's worried that his wife will receive validation for being just the way she is, and that he's going to be told that it's all his fault, and that he should just shut up and accept his frigid wife as is. (Sounds like Red doesn't trust the pastor... as an atheist I have no comment).

I think he should relent and go to the pastor anyway, since that's the only option she's leaving him. *The status quo of working on it by themselves isn't working: 15 years of marriage has proven that beyond all discussion or debate.* They need help. Maybe he needs it. Maybe she needs it. Probably they both do. If it goes as badly as he fears, he can at least divorce his wife knowing that he really and truly tried everything he could.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

See the pastor alone and get his input first would be my suggestion - for all you know he may simply be echoing the party line - missionary  - and any alternatives are futile...

Otherwise if said pastor provides validation for the status quo you're toast...


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The post you quoted, that you said you could not O from, is the type of sex his wife demands.


She's a Christian and probably believes the wife submit malarky so...

get that tool all lubed up with coconut oil and tell her "I am not done yet. From now on our sex is going to be MUTUAL! Do you hear me- MUTUAL! Have I made myself clear?- MUTUAL. I am not finishing until you O. Period."

and do what Plan 9 says until she arrives




Plan 9 from OS said:


> IMHO, it's an underrated sex position, and I'm sad to say that I wasted time not learning to appreciate this position more (although, losing weight has helped make this position better for us too...). There is SO MUCH variation you can do with "boring old missionary". You can "ride high and support yourself with your hands to watch the ecstasy on her face, you can close to her by supporting yourself on your forearms to kiss her on the lips, neck, etc. You can modify and get into the CAT, you can have her rock her hips up to allow you to hit that spot deep inside and even gently touch the cervix, you can go shallower and rub the G spot, you can grind. It's become freaking awesome.
> 
> This position can become SO HOT. C'mon, having your partner grab your ass to pull in deeper, wrap her legs around your waste, gently caress your back with her fingernails or scratching your back from the pleasure you're giving her.
> 
> ...


I feel sorry for the poor woman. She has missed out on so much pleasure  Sux to be her!


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Blonde said:


> Flame away but *most of that stuff* on your list is not in our repertoire and we have had thousands of mutual O's and H is quite happy with our frequent and mutually satisfying sex life (now that he quit the porn).


So, we can conclude from the bolded part that some of that list IS in your repertoire, yes?

Everyone brings their own agenda and issues here (me included), but I'd point out you seemed determined to misread what Red is saying. He's not saying "My marriage sucks because I don't get anal and bondage." He doesn't get anything. ANYTHING. Foreplay. Deep kissing. Anything. Whatever you have in your repertoire, isn't in theirs. And his wife has been extremely clear that that's exactly the way she wants it.



> get that tool all lubed up with coconut oil and tell her "I am not done yet. From now on our sex is going to be MUTUAL! Do you hear me- MUTUAL! Have I made myself clear?- MUTUAL. I am not finishing until you O. Period."


This directly contradicts MEM1163's advice (which is to stop if the sex is bad), and actually sounds suspiciously close to rape, legally speaking. However, I concede that it is indeed Red's fault if he can't follow all the contradictory advice he's getting here simultaneously.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

john117 said:


> See the pastor alone and get his input - for all you know he may simply be echoing the party line - missionary  - and any alternatives are futile...
> 
> Otherwise if said pastor provides validation for the status quo you're toast...


I think this is worth a shot. I don't know that much about baptists. I know there are several different flavors. I'll tell you this though, my sister is baptists and when she was getting married I was around her pastor for a few days and it seemed to me the message was pretty clear. That guys was all about the wives submitting sexually as well as in life in general. I have no idea if this is how they all are. He even talked about it at the ceremony (in a round about way).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

On second thought I would trust a religious affiliated licensed social worker type outside her own church setting that can preserve privacy and impartiality over the pastor of a church that likely has planted a good number of ideas as it is...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Blonde said:


> My nipples are very erogenous and I LOVE H playing with them during the act but absolutely HATE being assaulted and molested when I am doing dishes or laundry or climbing on a ladder... There is a time and place for erotic touching.
> 
> Take your list to the pastor. I really think you need to make the marriage BED a place of pleasure and mutual satisfaction and the stuff on your list is from too much porn (the secular trained Christian M counselor told me that the demand for certain acts- on your list- is symptomatic of porn use)
> 
> Flame away but most of that stuff on your list is not in our repertoire and we have had thousands of mutual O's and H is quite happy with our frequent and mutually satisfying sex life (now that he quit the porn).


Totally agree!.... About porn causing him to believe he must have the bells and whistles to have a fulfilling sex life. Coming from a place where it is highly doubtful his wife has ever had an orgasm asking for and expecting spice in the sex life is also absurd.

Red, you're trying to add salt and pepper to an empty plate here. You can't spice the meal until the main ingredient has been cooked. Her enthusiastic arousal is the main ingredient. Get that, and the rest will eventually fall into place.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> S
> This directly contradicts MEM1163's advice (which is to stop if the sex is bad), and actually sounds suspiciously close to rape, legally speaking.


It's not rape. The W submits for the 3-4 minute version. 

3-4 minutes is NOT getting her off!

To hell with 3-4 minutes...* Keep going* till you get her home. My H can do that without foreplay. If she actually started to ENJOY sex, I think she will be open to a little adventure (though his list is way over the top porn influenced IMO)

I'm not a man, but I think H has learned what I like NOT from me saying but from trial and error and observation. He knows how to play me like a violin and he takes his time working up to the crescendo.

I would also like to point out to Red that REAL WOMEN are not the same as PORN WOMEN. Real women don't turn on with the click of a button all hot for you. Real women are greatly impacted by the emotional climate of the relationship.

Perhaps this article would help: http://pastordavidrn.homestead.com/files/centerfold.pdf


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> On second thought I would trust a religious affiliated licensed social worker type outside her own church setting that can preserve privacy and impartiality over the pastor of a church that likely has planted a good number of ideas as it is...


But that's just it! If Red goes to see this preacher man and comes away with the message that he should be satisfied with opened legs once a week, then Red can WALK with his head held high. If the preacher man completely misses this opportunity to teach about God's Greatest Gift (multiple orgasms for women) then it is a hopeless situation that will NEVER get better. And at that point, divorce is absolutely the right thing to do for both of them!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Blonde said:


> It's not rape. The W submits for the 3-4 minute version.
> 
> 3-4 minutes is NOT getting her off!
> 
> ...


Blonde, with all due respect and I'm truly NOT saying this for any other reason but to illuminate the difficulties of developing good sex skills without good communication...

Your husband had multiple affairs with many women. He learned to be a good lover because he had other women telling him what they liked and he brought that knowledge home.

Yes, he could have read some books about turning a woman on, but nothing beats communication WITH the person you're having sex with.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

H had one affair (2008) and a ONS (1990) which did not add anything valuable to "experience" IMO. It is true that both of us were experienced before M (not with each other). I became a Christian at age 19 and he was 25. We had orgasmic sex on the honeymoon onward. I would attribute that to youth and hormones more than experience though. 

30 years of practice really increases the knowledge and experience. I had 8 full term pregnancies beginning within 2 years of M. God says "don't deprive" and missionary doesn't work when you are 8 months pregnant! My nipples were messy and off limits while I was nursing babies and have become much more sensitive now than I recall pre-childbearing.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

My mistake Blonde I apologize. I thought your H was a serial cheater with many ONS and short term affairs. Truly sorry about mis characterizing your H. I will delete my post if you wish.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Leave it up anon. He lurks at times and seems to want me to defend his honor, "set the record straight"


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Blonde said:


> get that tool all lubed up with coconut oil and tell her "I am not done yet. From now on our sex is going to be MUTUAL! Do you hear me- MUTUAL! Have I made myself clear?- MUTUAL. I am not finishing until you O. Period."
> 
> ...
> 
> It's not rape.


Uh, what you are describing is non-consensual sex, and yes, that IS rape. Sorry. (not to mention that banging away at somebody who doesn't want to be banged that long and just wants you to GET IT OVER WITH would be unlikely to lead to an orgasm for her, and would additionally be profoundly unappealing to me, and presumably to Red as well).

You might want to get past your need to make this all about what a crappy inconsiderate lover and perverted porn addict Red is (in fact, if I recall correctly, Red has not said anything about porn). Go back and read what he's telling you. He's tried everything. Massage, candles, bubble bath, going fast, going slow. If there's something she wants him to do differently/better/longer/harder/softer/slower/faster, he says he'll do it and we have no reason to doubt him. The one thing that floated her boat (fantasizing about another man) was something she's (not entirely unreasonably) reluctant to indulge in. 

He isn't lucky to have had previous partners the way you did, and he isn't lucky enough to have married someone who liked sex right out of the gate (as you seem to) but it seems to me he's doing his best to work with what he has (a lifelong Baptist who has never liked sex, and doesn't drink or watch non-PG entertainment, and refuses *massage*).


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Red, you're trying to add salt and pepper to an empty plate here. You can't spice the meal until the main ingredient has been cooked. *Her enthusiastic arousal is the main ingredient. Get that*, and the rest will eventually fall into place.


I concede this is a good point. She's unlikely to be too interested in oral/anal/bondage/etc if she's not enjoying plain old PIV. 

What's missing here, as discussed, is any clue for how her "enthusiastic arousal" is to be achieved. :scratchhead: Red doesn't seem to know. I don't know. You don't know. If his wife knows, she's not telling. 

I wouldn't go within a thousand yards of a Baptist pastor for advice on anything, personally.  Red would know more about his Baptist pastor than I would and reading over what he wrote it seems he doesn't want to either. I still think he should, just so that after the inevitable failure of this intervention nobody will be able to say he didn't do all he could.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

For any number of reasons, some traumatic, some just plain old fashioned messaging, a woman who is sexually repressed is not allowing herself to become aroused. I suspect this is why she has prohibited prolonged touching and forplay. 

Be great if you could get her to have a drink, or even smoke a joint! But since that's not likely to happen, she has to consciously allow herself to relax and enjoy being touched with affection. Just affection, nothing sexual. 

Baby steps!

Slowly rubbing her arm, gentle touching to find the tickle spot. Using a light touch on her arm with the tips of your fingers, notice the goose bumps, notice her shiver, notice the silky smoothness of her arm, how her hairs stand up when the goose bumps appear. Have her relax and close her eyes and just enjoy her arm being soothed, stroked and scratched.

Progress, after several nights of doing JUST this to her leg, from mid thigh down. Same thing again. But do not go near her crotch.

After doing both arms and both legs for some time, perhaps as long as two weeks, she turns over and allows a back rub with no shirt on. Same thing again, gentle touch, find the tickle spots, find the itchy parts, watch the skin change, listen to her breathing change.

Another two week and you talk about how well she is doing relaxing into your touch. How important this is that she trust you with her body, that you only want her trust and enjoyment. If she can work on staying relaxed and work on trusting you with her body and her feelings, than you slowly progress to a back rub that progresses down to her bottom. The bottom is a huge, no pun intended, erogenous zone and the muscle groups there actually carry a great deal of tension from the day. To be able to get her to relax and enjoy having you slowly and gently rub and massage her bottom then you're on you way to the rest.

But she won't allow this unless and until she feels like she isn't being rejected, punished or criticized.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Red,

I know my posts may come across as harsh. Truly I am rooting for you. 

I realize your W is behaving in a way that makes it seem like she is opposed to more than tolerating your brief use of her body. 

Is it possible she has a core trust issue? 

The reason I ask is this. 

She seems VERY RESISTANT to getting in a state where she is giving up control. 

Her extreme reaction to the idea of a glass of wine or two seems very similar to her avoidance of arousal. 

Being highly aroused, and getting a little drunk are similar in that both represent some loss of control. 

Seeing a sex therapist is a bit like that as well since she knows that such a person is going to press her to 'let go' and let herself feel desire for you. 

Perhaps this is why she won't tell you what feels good. 

And that's why my suggestion was to focus on that. 

She may see arousal as simply your strategy for getting her to engage in sex acts she finds disgusting or sinful. 

It might help if she truly believed that you see HER arousal, desire, pleasure as an end in itself. 

Instead of her seeing it as you attempting to use it as the means to an end. 

AND the thing about all that is, I'd be surprised if your pastor / minister wasn't supportive of that goal. 

He's married. I bet he wants his wife to feel desire for him.....

Trust will likely lead to honest communication about what feels good / great to her. And that will likely, gradually lead to her feeling desire. 






MarriedManInHis40s said:


> Uh, what you are escribing is non-consensual sex, and yes, that IS rape. Sorry. (not to mention that banging away at somebody who doesn't want to be banged that long and just wants you to GET IT OVER WITH would be unlikely to lead to an orgasm for her, and would additionally be profoundly unappealing to me, and presumably to Red as well).
> 
> You might want to get past your need to make this all about what a crappy inconsiderate lover and perverted porn addict Red is (in fact, if I recall correctly, Red has not said anything about porn). Go back and read what he's telling you. He's tried everything. Massage, candles, bubble bath, going fast, going slow. If there's something she wants him to do differently/better/longer/harder/softer/slower/faster, he says he'll do it and we have no reason to doubt him. The one thing that floated her boat (fantasizing about another man) was something she's (not entirely unreasonably) reluctant to indulge in.
> 
> He isn't lucky to have had previous partners the way you did, and he isn't lucky enough to have married someone who liked sex right out of the gate (as you seem to) but it seems to me he's doing his best to work with what he has (a lifelong Baptist who has never liked sex, and doesn't drink or watch non-PG entertainment, and refuses *massage*).


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Baby steps!
> 
> Slowly rubbing her arm, gentle touching to find the tickle spot....


This conversation is progressing, as we are now conceding that it will take some fairly Herculean efforts on Red's part to get his very, very repressed wife to open up, rather than this being all about what an inconsiderate, stubborn, clumsy, passive-aggressive, and all-around horrible porn-loving jerk Red is.

If I were Red, I wouldn't want to be bothered doing any of what you describe until my wife looked me in the eye and said: "I know what you want. I know what kind of marriage you want. I want that too, I want that closeness and ecstacy, and I know I could have it....but it's very hard for me. I'm sorry. It's hard for me to trust and hard for me to lose control, it's even hard for me to tell you want I want, but I will try to get there....you're going to have to be very patient with me." If it takes a pastor or a sex therapist to get her to say that, whatever works. (Frankly, I think she needs to hear that divorce is on the table in order to shake up her own world view enough to get her to come to that realization).

If I'm Red and I hear that... great, I'll go without sex for weeks, trying to patiently massage my wife's kneecap for half an hour.

But if the whole elaborate massage regimen is just a elaborate and undiscussed ruse on Red's part to get better sex (something she is determined she doesn't want to give, to a man, that for all we know, she doesn't even LIKE), why bother? Surely she'll figure it out quickly enough, and she'll just say "no" to these nice arm rubs (like she already does). Welcome back to square one.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Is it possible that she is attracted to women?

Does she have women friends to whom she is closer than she is to you?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MarriedManInHis40s said:


> This conversation is progressing, as we are now conceding that it will take some fairly Herculean efforts on Red's part to get his very, very repressed wife to open up, rather than this being all about what an inconsiderate, stubborn, clumsy, passive-aggressive, and all-around horrible porn-loving jerk Red is.


I'm sure all of that hurt Red. But there is truth to all of it. Of course that's not the whole man and I think everyone is aware of that.



> If I were Red, I wouldn't want to be bothered doing any of what you describe until my wife looked me in the eye and said: "I know what you want. I know what kind of marriage you want. I want that too, I want that closeness and ecstacy, and I know I could have it....but it's very hard for me. I'm sorry. It's hard for me to trust and hard for me to lose control, it's even hard for me to tell you want I want, but I will try to get there....you're going to have to be very patient with me." If it takes a pastor or a sex therapist to get her to say that, whatever works. (Frankly, I think she needs to hear that divorce is on the table in order to shake up her own world view enough to get her to come to that realization).


This seems reasonable, if she felt safe enough to be this honest with him. From what I've read in this thread, I'm not sure how she's feeling in terms of emotional safety, but it doesn't seem likely it's on the safe side.



> If I'm Red and I hear that... great, I'll go without sex for weeks, trying to patiently massage my wife's kneecap for half an hour.
> 
> But if the whole elaborate massage regimen is just a elaborate and undiscussed ruse on Red's part to get better sex (something she is determined she doesn't want to give, to a man, that for all we know, she doesn't even LIKE), why bother? Surely she'll figure it out quickly enough, and she'll just say "no" to these nice arm rubs (like she already does). Welcome back to square one.


I'm not suggesting he go without sex, I'm suggesting he separate the trust and relaxing exercises from their sex. In time he can combine the two with pretty good results.

BUT, this takes a concerted effort to meet her emotional need for safety. A few of us learned this on our own without being forced to but most people HAD to learn it because the pain of refusing was worse than the pain of learning and growing.


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## nightmoves8 (Aug 30, 2012)

Just wanted to chime in to say that this entire thread is fascinating AND the heartfelt and deeply thoughtful and thought provoking posts are remarkable.
The OP must ( or should) be reading with relish. (and thanks)
Therapy aside - this kind of open and honest sharing of experience if nothing else should open his mind to new territory.

All that said...I have read every post...and as dealing with a similar albeit not as rigid but a bit more tame version....can certainly understand if the posts might leave the OP a bit spinning.
It is VERY VERY difficult to gain ANY traction without open,honest, and genuine conversation and communication.
I think that the OP is not necessarily hoping for Porn star sex...as much as he simply wants his wife to DESIRE to have sex with him and as such desire HIM.
Its funny ...a woman who is truly present...open...engaged ...and mentally and emotionally "into" the moment and connection....is FAR more important to most guys than "porn star sex"...(IMHO)

Ultimately - the MOST sexy and memorable sexual moments involve where the woman's HEAD is at (no crass comments please...;-). An active ...energized...intentioned...partner...is as good as it gets...

Some of the greatest sexual memories - are not about "positions"...or the "perfect blowjob"....but rather where that woman's heart, passion, playfulness, and desire was in the moment.

It could be that he is looking for the "bells and whistles"...so as to "prove" she is into it. Maybe (as Anon showcases) he REALLY wants to simply KNOW she is into him/it. 
A new position is not going to get that.
A caring and careful dialog might start the path toward it.

End of the day....I do feel the OP's pain.
And can appreciate how confusing all the various paths put before him can be.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> It sure seems like a lot of people here are telling Red to suck it up and be happy with less. Unfortunately that's not something he can control.
> 
> Maybe you think that's not what you're saying but I'm pretty sure that's how most guys in Reds situation will read it.


WOM I don't see how he can interpret the suggestions as "suck it up". I think he should feel optimistic because there are many things that he has not tried yet. He needs to begin where she is not a mile ahead.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Blonde said:


> It's not rape. The W submits for the 3-4 minute version.
> 
> 3-4 minutes is NOT getting her off!
> 
> ...


:scratchhead:

I'm super confused about this advice. Do you think that longer intercourse gets all women off? Because it most definitely doesn't. Some women are never going to get an O from intercourse at all, and just blindly having intercourse for longer in an attempt to get her to O is most likely just going to turn her off more. Your hubby sounds like a great lover, but you probably could O from intercourse with another lover, too. Meaning, you are able to O from intercourse at all.

Also, are you actually telling him to just focus on her having an O, and making that the "goal" of them having better sex? For some people, the O is not the goal nor even the best part of sex, so this is not good advice for everyone.

It gets difficult when we start giving specific technique advice, because women are so different physically, beyond how different we are emotionally, etc.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Red Hare said:


> I also disagree that I changed about sex. I always wanted to have great sex during marriage, a fact that I specifically addressed with her and thought she was in agreement with. I guess my mistake was thinking somehow we'd work things out if we loved each other and were married. She knew that before we got married and I must assume she thought that somehow I would lie on top of her and put my "penis" in her and a be oh so happy she was willing to lie there to fulfill her marital duty. She didn't tell me this, of course, but to be fair I didn't specifically ask it either.
> 
> I
> 
> ...


Have you read anything on sexuality, about female sexuality, the differences between what women want and what men want? If you have not, you should. You asked her what she wants but how can she know what she does not know? 

I don't think you have tried all of the good suggestions. You picked suggestions that you thought would be the fastest way towards your goal. So you did not get what you wanted in a few days. You could become more knowledgeable and patient. 

Don't stay out of fear, it you can't stay out of love for your wife and kids then make an orderly exit. I assure you that D men find women to have sex with them.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Have you read anything on sexuality, about female sexuality, the differences between what women want and what men want? If you have not, you should. *You asked her what she wants but how can she know what she does not know? *


This is a good point.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

I do appreciate everyone's advice. The fact that there are so many wildly different suggestions makes me feel better about one thing, that I'm not simply missing an easy, practical solution.

To address a few points:

1. The reason I won't go so the pastor about the problem is that there is nothing he will say that we haven't heard, and much of what he'll say will reinforce her deeply held belief that she's "normal" and I'm being abusive. The basic assumption underlying a Christian marriage is that we should love each other sacrificially. The bible specifically says we should be having sex (absent specific circumstances not present in my case) and that we we should put the other first. My wife is perfectly "willing" to have sex. The first problem is, I don't want a "willing" spouse, I want a "wanting" spouse. If I bought my wife flowers every week she'd probably be pretty happy, but if I told her I was doing it only because I was _required_ my guess is the flowers wouldn't mean that much to her anymore. It's the same with sex. Her adamant position is that she's "willing" to have sex and has refused every single time I've asked to say she "wants" to have sex. It's a big difference.

The second problem is the prevalent "Christian Marriage Book" teaching that, while a married couple is free do anything hey choose (as long as it involves only them), _neither spouse should try to force the other to do something which he or she doesn't want to do._ Thus, my wife will readily admit that there's nothing inherently sinful about oral sex, it's just something she doesn't like and it's wrong for me to not just accept that. As I've said many times before, if she was just opposed to giving or receiving oral sex, for example, but was open to trying other things I could probably live with it. I don't have a Holy Grail sex act that I just have to have. My problem is, she's opposed to anything and everything outside of ordinary vaginal sex following 90 seconds of "foreplay." There's no mystery, no anticipation, no variation. It's like going to a restaurant that has decent hamburgers, but that's all it has and that's the only restaurant you're allowed to eat at. Believe me, it gets old after awhile. 

2. I've realized recently that her ongoing efforts to desexualize herself have finally paid off. I used to by her stylish clothes that flattered her and enjoyed looking at her in and out of the bedroom. These weren't ****ty minidresses or see-through things. They were stylish jeans, skirts and blouses. Since we had kids, and especially in the past few years, she's made an effort to avoid being "provocative," which means she wears loose fitting jeans, khaki pants and nothing even remotely low cut. 

It worked. 

I used to have sexualized dreams about her regularly, and would admire her getting out of the shower or getting ready in the morning. I don't anymore. She's the mother of my children. She's a good housekeeper. She's a dowdy scold. It sounds harsh and I feel badly about it, but being honest with myself, I just don't have sexual thoughts about her anymore.

3. The answer to our problem, at least on my end, isn't open communication. She absolutely refuses to talk about sex with any openness whatsoever. She's upset now that she sees our marriage is at the brink of divorce, but her discussing sex is nothing more than her telling me that she's "sorry" she can't be like the women in porn. Again, in her mind, the only women who engage in oral sex are women in porn, and then only because they're being paid to do something revolting. In her mind, porn falsely portrays women as actually desiring to have sex. In her mind, she's the "normal" woman who is willing to have sex to "satisfy" the needs of her husband but who doesn't "need" sex herself.

Any effort to communicate beyond this hits a brick wall. She adamantly claims that she herself has no fantasies; that she doesn't need sex; and that she is as open about sex as every one of her friends she's talked to. Any attempt at discussing our terrible and marriage-destroying sexual incompatibility ends in about 12 seconds with her apologizing that she isn't a porn actress with no consideration that we might be able to find a middle ground.

4. To some extent, I do realize that the key is her reaching a point that she is herself aroused. Unfortunately, everything I see leads me to believe that she actively fights and counters any thought or action that might make her feel aroused because she isn't one of those women in porn. I agree that it's probably about remaining in control. I think it makes her uneasy to get lost in the moment erotically and lose control, so she has learned to spot those triggers and counter them. But knowing that and using that knowledge to help her make reasonable changes are two different things.

5. Finally, as I noted that last time, several events in the past year have not only opened my eyes to the severity of the problem, they've also convinced me that we're unlikely to ever reach a middle ground. I've tried, but it's become increasingly difficult not to feel bitter about our sex life. Every attempt at being vulnerable and trying to express what I'd like in bed has been met with contempt and rejection. Open communication requires a willingness to be vulnerable and honest, and I really don't know that I can get there again. The lack of physical intimacy has affected every other aspect of our marriage. I face a stark and unyielding decision. Stay with her knowing that I will never have a fulfilling intimate relationship, or leave her in the hopes of finding someone who wants to be intimate with me, but knowing the disruption it will cause my children and the financial instability it will cause us both to experience. It's a terrible decision to make and one I wrestle with daily.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Read this thread (I'm tired of trying by neuklas. He succeeded.

If you are truly considering losing your marriage, you may take the risk of doing a modified 180, as neuklas did.

1) No more relationship talk at this point. It gets you nowhere.
2) Find happiness in other things, in yourself. Let your wife see that you are self actualizing through work, hobbies, parenting.
3) Do not tell that you love her. Stop giving physical affection.
4) Stop initiating sex that leads to duty sex;
5) If she initiates sex, accept it on your terms. If it is not good and not fulfilling, don't do it.
6) Detach yourself, preparing for the possibility that your marriage will end.
7) Do not go about this in ill humor. Be good natured. 

Your wife should begin to hunger for affirmation. She should seek to connect with you.

This process is not risk free since detaching will draw you closer to the decision to divorce. However, by "working on yourself" you make this a positive process. You demonstrate to her that you are going have good life. She must decide whether she wants to join you.

If you do read neuklas's thread, ask yourself was he subtle or crude. What did his wife perceive or fathom in the change that took place?

p.s. Find a better church. The pastor there is paid because you donate. It is a contractual relationship. If his understanding of scripture and spirituality doesn't jive with you, find a different pastor. Try different churches. Talk with the clergy, try to get feel for someone who is wise and cheerful.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

LongWalk, there's a tremendous amount of difference between Red's case and the suggested case. 

It's good to be used as a reference but not as a cookbook. 

To a great extent, Red is fighting religion and/or culture. Such things generally aren't fixable without significant intervention, if they can be fixed at all. And thanks to the way divorce is handled in the USA it makes splitting a lot more troublesome than it ought to be.

What you're seeing is the result of the anti-70's counter revolution of the 1980's and later. The tide has turned conservative and there's not an iota we can do about it. 

Maybe in 100 years Americans will get rid of their prudish hangups. But until then there will be lots more Reds and Johns and the like. In Italy, it's a self correcting problem. Signore Lepre Rosso will have his avventura and Signora Rosso will get the message or have her own. No divorce, no LD, no sexlessness, no nuttin'


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

John,

I agree that the situation is different.
But what alternative approaches are there?

One thing that neuklas avoided was telling his wife what he was doing.
Red has already talked himself blue in the fact.

Talking will not change things.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> John,
> 
> I agree that the situation is different.
> But what alternative approaches are there?



Not many. That's how the issue continues unabated.

Talking is not the way to do it since there's nothing to be discussed. They both explained their views... So that's it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Red, you're being silly not seeing the preacher with your wife. Hell man, I'd like to go!



> The reason I won't go so the pastor about the problem is that there is nothing he will say that we haven't heard, and much of what he'll say will reinforce her deeply held belief that she's "normal" and I'm being abusive. The basic assumption underlying a Christian marriage is that we should love each other sacrificially. The bible specifically says we should be having sex (absent specific circumstances not present in my case) and that we we should put the other first. My wife is perfectly "willing" to have sex.


No, she's not willing to have sex. She is willing to lay down and spread her legs. That's not sex. That procreation. So ask your preacher to talk about the difference between a married couple having sex and a married couple procreating!

Wife thinks she's normal for not allowing herself to become aroused? Thinks it's normal for a woman to not enjoy sex? Thinks it's normal for a woman to dislike oral sex, both giving and receiving? Who told her this was normal? 

Why do women have a clitoris, if sexual fulfillment for a woman isn't normal? Why does the clitoris have more nerve endings than a penis? Why does the clitoris extend around the vaginal opening? Who designed our bodies this way? The very tip of the clitoris doesn't generally get touched during PIV unless you grind your pelvises against each other. So if it's normal for a woman to not become aroused enough to have orgasmic sex, why did God create our bodies with the capability of having MANY orgasms to a man's single orgasm?

If the preacher wants to discuss sacrificial love, why not also talk about the sacrificial love of DEALING with frigidity and embracing the God given capability or multiple O's? She would have to sacrifice her long held belief that enjoying sex makes her a slvt. She would have to sacrifice her long held notion that sex is shameful and she would have to sacrifice her desire to keep sex shameful! So bring on the talk of sacrifice!

I wouldn't even bother with oral sex until you can get her aroused enough to orgasm. Once you get her there oral sex will happen.

If this preacher man can't help your wife understand the importance of sexual arousal for women than you can freely walk away knowing you've done all you could and religion killed your marriage. Men are "supposed" to be sex driven, but they need women who are sex receptive. Being receptive doesn't mean spreading your legs! It means enjoying it as much as your man...more than him frankly!

Go see the damn preacher!


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## ToothFairy (May 19, 2013)

I am sorry for you. I don't mean to be mean.. but your wife just sounds boring and a little self righteous. She needs to get in touch with her inner vixen. Share this site with her...

Sex toys | Christian Nymphos


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Anon Pink,

With all respect, he knows the pastor is not going to say the right stuff. They need to change churches.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

ToothFairy said:


> I am sorry for you. I don't mean to be mean.. but your wife just sounds boring and a little self righteous. She needs to get in touch with her inner vixen. Share this site with her...
> 
> Sex toys | Christian Nymphos


Someone suggested it several months back after my initial post. I suggested my wife look at the site and gave her the web address. I'm fairly certain she didn't look at it.


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## Red Hare (May 13, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Anon Pink,
> 
> With all respect, he knows the pastor is not going to say the right stuff. They need to change churches.


I don't think it's a matter of changing churches, either. I'm not sure where people (like my wife) get this notion that a pastor is an expert on everything in life. When my car starts making a clunking noise as I drive down the road, I don't ask my pastor to take it for a test drive. If my toilet won't stop running I don't call the pastor to repair it. If I get a fever and sore throat I don't go to the pastor to see if I have strep throat. 

Maybe the pastor of the church we go to has some education and training about women's sexuality, but I certainly have no reason to think that's the case. I've read the bible a few times cover to cover and trust me, the word "clitoris" isn't in it anywhere. The bible isn't a sex manual.

I've read plenty of "Christian" books about sex and they all say the same thing. Sex is marriage is good and God-ordained and while you can do whatever you want (that involves only the couple themselves), neither spouse should try to force the other to do something he or she doesn't want to. While I agree with this advice in general, it gives her an easy cop out. "I'm doing my part by being willing to have sex, but you shouldn't try to make me do anything I don't want to do. The end. Game over."

The operative bible passage is 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 which says, "The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

The guiding principle is to have fulfill one another sexually to ward off temptation. Having sex with her, especially in the past several years since she's become more prudish, doesn't help me avoid temptation to cheat. It's actually driven me to consider an affair or divorce as a reasonable option. It's not simply because she won't be open to anything besides "regular sex," either. The thing that is most frustrating is the fact that there appears to be no possibility that things will ever change because she is completely closed to change.

If she bought a book about sex on Amazon, I'd think maybe there might be a hope of change. If she was willing to go to a trained sex therapist, I'd think there might be a hope of change. If she bought some lingerie herself and surprised me with it, I'd think there might be hope of change. If she'd admit that she has some kind of fantasy, however vanilla it might be, I'd have hope that things might change. Hell, if she'd just say the words "I want to have sex" instead of "I'm _willing_ to have sex," I'd have some hope of change.

She hasn't and not only am I out of ideas, I'm out of patience to try out new ideas to improve things.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Lila,

I think he would. His only real desire is for his wife to be passionate, to enjoy losing herself in pleasure with him, together. He wants the intimacy of orgasming together or in turn (which is also a kind of together), but it is not simply release that he wants. Nor does he have some particular fetish.

I don't think missionary is bad. It is bad if she is not into it.

Interesting that John feels this is religion gone wrong.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Hey Red,

could it be that your wife is using "religion" as the reason why she doesn't want or enjoy sex? My wife was a 25 year old Jewish virgin. She blames her upbringing and that sex is "dirty" as the reason she doesn't allow herself to enjoy sex. 

Is religion just an easy excuse for your wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Just reread your post that she could be using religion as a "cop out". 

This may be a huge part of it....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Of course - because more time for pleasure ("sin") means less time for the church. 

It's all about keeping one's options open. Some or the more fundamentalist or strict churches - not religion itself - tend to take this attitude.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

This is been going on for a long time and you are still whining about it. If you're going to leave then just go ahead and leave. But if you're not going to leave then just get your head on straight and accept it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Red, I'm not making myself clear. So let me try again.

*Of course she's using religion as a cop out!!!*

And

*No kidding this preacher isn't gonna know SQUAT about woman's sexuality!!!*

By granting her wish, you are effectively taking that stupid excuse off the table.

My bet is that unless this preacher is also contenting himself with corpse sex, he is going to KNOW that he's got a wife who is suppressing her sexual self and HIDING behind the bible to support her actions AND he's going to call her on it!

My bet is that he will tell your wife the loving her husband includes loving sex with her husband. He will probably avoid any talk of HOW to accomplish that because he doesn't know SQUAT about women's sexuality. And in that case he might suggest your wife see a doctor or a Christian therapist. He may suggest your wife pray and ask for guidance on what exactly "making love" means and challenge her belief that making love means exposing her lower region and making that available for penetrative sex....cause that ain't making love hon.

Your wife is upset, but she has in her opinion, righteousness on her side. If this preacher challenges her thinking, she will no longer have righteousness and will no longer be the loving wife victim to husbands disgusting urges, but the cold distant dysfunctioning woman who needs to figure out how to love a man.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The risk of the preacher himself being content with corpse sex is too high for the minuscule validation benefit. Is there some intel about said preacher and his views on things carnal? 

That's why I would think a non denominational but religious type therapist may produce more objective results.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Totally agree John. It is likely he will not challenge her belief. But, what if he does see through her? What if he does challenge her? What if this poor brain washed woman can be woken up by her minister challenging her belief that normal carnal relations include enthusiastic fulfilling participation from the wife and that learning to enjoy carnal relations is her duty as a Christian wife? Why pass on the cheapest and easiest potential to save this marriage? The only reason why would be someone doesn't really want to save the marriage and feels victimized and wants to stay the victim...of frigidity.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Based on everything you have said and considering you are not ready for divorce, this is what I would do.

Stop having sex with your wife. You are in control as to whether or not you ever have unfulffling sex ever again. Nothing will tell her you are serious like refusing bad sex.

How would your life be different if you were treating the needs of your wife the way she is treating your needs? What does the absolute minimum requirements of a husband look like? What benefits and other things can you do with your life if you don't really consider what is important to your wife? 

There is some middle ground between where you are at and divorce.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I agree with you, Hicks. But OP must do it in a way that is not hostile. He should be firm about it.

But how will be able to recognize when his wife is ready for passion?

The duty sex is horrible.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Absolutely do it not hostile or to prove any points.
Do it to get fulfillment in your life considering it won't be coming from your marraige. Do it for inner peace. Do it to free yourself from the heartache. It's not about getting her to become ready for passion.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Hicks said:


> Based on everything you have said and considering you are not ready for divorce, this is what I would do.
> 
> *Stop having sex with your wife. You are in control as to whether or not you ever have unfulffling sex ever again. Nothing will tell her you are serious like refusing bad sex.*
> 
> ...



Agree on the bolded part. If you're having sex and you feel, or can tell she's not in to it, stop. "I can tell this isn't working for you. Shall we try something you would enjoy or shall we stop altogether."


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

john117 said:


> The risk of the preacher himself being content with corpse sex is too high for the minuscule validation benefit. Is there some intel about said preacher and his views on things carnal?
> 
> That's why I would think a non denominational but religious type therapist may produce more objective results.


This is good advice. I'm a Christian, and while I'd be willing to talk to some pastors in a situation like this, I also recognize that there are a VAST number of different things you might be told by different pastors, and a great many of them can damage the situation further. Don't speak to a pastor unless you are sure of what he'll say first.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

As an aetheist I find it hard to believe what say a pastor should be having in anybody's sex life! Surely this is something between man and wife and nothing to do with the pastor. I think it would be far more useful to talk to a health professional about one's sex life than it would to a man of the cloth. Personally, I would find it excruciatingly embarrassing to admit to friends the problems I'm having with our sex life and I'm not yet at the point of needing to discuss it with a health professional, unless it's with my husband in a bid to do something about it which is very unlikely to happen as he is happy with the current no sex situation. This is one of the reasons I'm here on TAM, so that I can discuss this problem anonymously. I really can't see that discussing it with a pastor could be of any help.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> This is good advice. I'm a Christian, and while I'd be willing to talk to some pastors in a situation like this, I also recognize that there are a VAST number of different things you might be told by different pastors, and a great many of them can damage the situation further. Don't speak to a pastor unless you are sure of what he'll say first.


Maybe you've hit on something. That is talking to the pastor ahead of time. Briefly discuss. You don't want to ambush her by discussing too much and forming some kind of game plan.
Just get an idea where he's coming from and if he has any idea if there's even corn in Kansas.


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## MarriedManInHis40s (Mar 28, 2013)

Red Hare said:


> 1. The reason I won't go so the pastor about the problem is that there is nothing he will say that we haven't heard, and much of what he'll say will reinforce her deeply held belief that she's "normal" and I'm being abusive.


What do you have to lose? Worst case scenario: he says what you think he'll say and you're in the same place you already are (ie: no hope). Best case: he'll surprise you and say something helpful. (I'm an atheist and am no judge on which religious figures are likely to say something helpful, but there are people here who seem to think he might. Are you 100% sure they are wrong?).

I've been defending you here but I think it might be time to call you out a bit. If you are considering divorce, and if divorce is such a terrible thing, then leave no stone unturned. The pastor is a stone. Turn it. Also, your wife needs to know you are unhappy, and needs to know why, and needs to know this is serious. A visit to the pastor will help drive that point home. And yes, stop having bad sex with her. Do a 180. Let her wonder what's going on, and give her some time to change her ways. Sometimes it takes people a while to realize that they are in the wrong. She's only realized there's a divorce-worthy problem for a few weeks now... give her a bit more time than that.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Red-

About this "no sex"?

I haven't initiated for a couple months now... 

I no longer have to wonder if we will have sex. 

I do the very minimum around the house. I drink my morning coffee on the porch so she doesn't talk to me... I will wash my clothes and my daughters. I went from cooking dinner 5 nights a week to about 2 nights now. When my wife leaves a knife with peanut butter in the sin at night, it will still be there in the morning. When she puts her dirty bowl of oatmeal in the sink in the morning, it will still be there in the evening. There are so many little things I no longer do...

What others are telling you to do will be hard. After about 2 months, my wife hasn't commented on anything...you wife may not be bothered at all. She knows you will not leave. My wife knows I will not leave.

Your wife may be relieved you stopped wanting sex. It seems like mine is relieved...I did fall of the wagon when my wife initiated and I ended up doing her laundry the next day...I could kick myself.... I am an idiot, but I am learning...


She was sniffling this morning... She said it was her sinuses... Dunno


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Sniffling, Trickster, because she is sad that you reject her?

Neuklas's thread illustrated a simple logical dynamic. It cannot save all sexless marriages but it is action.

The paradox is that as in Trickster's marriage, when a man stops hounding his wife and settling for duty sex or less and further withdraws emotionally, then the wife either won't care because she had no emotional stake in the marriage in any case or she will care because she did want love.

Taking away love is a message. Unfortunately, when one takes away love it may not survive in some storage box in a living heart and so the couple become completely disconnected. instead of a sexless marriage with unsustainable love, they end up with a loveless, sexless union without much nourishment for the soul.

When there are children it makes things rough.

neuklas managed to entice his wife back and then rekindle his feelings for her. Risky. Like docking in space. Not much room for mistakes.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Trickster said:


> Red-
> 
> About this "no sex"?
> 
> ...


Now, I am all for doing the 180 and cooling down the relationship to drive the point point home. But, those are temporary measures to drive a decision point (meet the need or leave). It is unlikely your wife will accept your marginalization of her over the long term.

Look at it this way: your wife knows you want good sex. She refuses to provide this, yet she continues to accept (if not expect / demand) multiple acts of service from you. Her thought process probably is "I deserve that attention from him. I bring enough to the table without the sex."

That being the case, it's likely she is going to feel slighted now that you ignore her. She might (and hopefully will) figure out the problem and try to meet your need. If she does not, the odds that she will continue to tolerate perceived slights on a continual basis is low.

I know you can argue that you have been tolerating perceived slights for years. But, remember that she does not think she is slighting you.

So, if she thinks she is getting her


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## adv (Feb 26, 2011)

I am not religious at all; I don't mind religion and think it has a lot of good messages but my parents never took my sister or I to church as kids, preferring to go sailing or camping on the weekends but I have a cousin who decided to become a minster after many years of being a business manager. He is married and has three daughters but he went back to Brown University to get his divinity Doctorate. 

Now while I'm not religious, I trust his opinion on marital questions because he is an intelligent man who is married himself and has probably encoutered many of the same problems. Perhaps your Pastor is the same way and you don't really have much to lose at this point by talking with him. He'll either let your wife know that it is OK, even encouraged, to enjoy sex with her husband or he'll confirm your worst fears that your church frowns upon that.

Either way, you'll be no worse off for trying.


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