# Well - 14 months and still no sex



## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

Not interested in even asking for it - nor has she tried to initiate which is even funnier. Not sure what to do - still thinking. Married 20+ years 3 kids. Thoughts?

I have consul with divorce attorney on Monday. 



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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Have the two of you spoken about it? How is the rest of your marriage? Any problems that have not been dealt with over the years?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Spartan01 said:


> *Not interested in even asking for it - nor has she tried to initiate which is even funnier. Not sure what to do - still thinking. Married 20+ years 3 kids. Thoughts?
> 
> I have consul with divorce attorney on Monday.*


*Let's just say that you gave her roughly 13 more months than I would have given her!

Good luck at the counselor's office on Monday!!*


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

Yes - not her thing. Doesn’t enjoy it, has never had orgasm, has never masturbated. I don’t want it from her anymore and used to be sexually attracted to her. Just can’t get myself to have sex just to get my rocks off. I can do that myself. 

The last time we did it I stopped in the middle of it because I realized I was fighting the impossible. Just couldn’t do it - I was done trying to make something out of nothing. No more gas left in the tank. 

She doesn’t make me a confident man nor does she make me feel loved. 


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Was she like that when the two of you married or did she change? How long have you been married and for how long has she not liked sex?

p.s. I'm not a sex therapist....just a married person who wants to know more before giving an opinion, support or advice.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

How sad.... she's missing out on a wonderful intimate connection. 

I know this will hurt but it's possible it's you who doesn't do it for her. A lot of women marry men who don't do it for them for other reasons. It's sad for both partners.

Women have been traditionally raised to look for things other than attraction in a husband. A man who prioritizes attraction is encouraged and understood....but imagine a woman telling her family that a decent successful man wants her but she's not attracted to him. Her family will think she's nuts.

This is changing, but it's slow. 

Do yourself a favor and find a woman who truly desires you, and maybe your wife will find a partner she desires. 

There's no aphrodisiac like knowing someone really wants you.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Uhhhh....

Nope.


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

Araucaria said:


> Was she like that when the two of you married or did she change? How long have you been married and for how long has she not liked sex?
> 
> p.s. I'm not a sex therapist....just a married person who wants to know more before giving an opinion, support or advice.




She’s been like this our entire marriage. Always an argument about The Who what when where and how when it comes to the bedroom. I was the HD she LD. I don’t think she sees herself as the problem. I may be in some sense as I don’t think I love her anymore. 


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> How sad.... she's missing out on a wonderful intimate connection.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




She says I am handsome and is attracted to me. I however have lost the attraction to her. Not sure I love her anymore. She doesn’t make me laugh, she’s not my best friend, and finally we have nothing in common. 


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Uhhhh....
> 
> Nope.


That’s all that needs to be said.


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

Andy1001 said:


> That’s all that needs to be said.




So what are you saying?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes, go to your appointment with the attorney, file for divorce, and move on ASAP.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Spartan01 said:


> *So what are you saying?*


*What I, along with my dear friends @ConanHub and @Andy1001 are saying, is that you've oversubjected yourself to a veritable marital hellhole for more than 20 years! 

That's probably 19 years and 9 months more than the most reasonable guy in the world would have absolutely given her "to straighten up and fly right!"

Just a few quick questions:

(1) How old are your three kids that you two have had together?

(2) Do you two attend church together or are you not religiously inclined?

(3) Does your wife work outside the home? 

(4) Have the two of you talked about undergoing marriage counseling, individual counseling, pastoral counseling, or even going through some kind of sexual therapy together?*


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Spartan01 said:


> So what are you saying?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You have wasted enough of your life with this woman.I’m not saying your kids have been a waste by any means but there is more to a marriage than staying together because of the children.
By my reckoning you are in your mid to late forties with probably over twenty years left where you can still have an active sex life.Do you want to spend those years jerking off or do you want a partner who enjoys sharing a normal sexual relationship with you.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

If she has no inkling this is coming, don't be surprised if you see a dramatic change in her behavior. I don't know the dynamics of your relationship, but it would not surprise me if she throws herself at you. You are playing the ultimate trump card in negotiations. The problem is that even if she's willing to make changes at this point, the changes will always seem artificial or forced, and that just doesn't "count" somehow.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Spartan01 said:


> She says I am handsome and is attracted to me. I however have lost the attraction to her. Not sure I love her anymore. She doesn’t make me laugh, she’s not my best friend, and finally we have nothing in common.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She may be telling the truth in that she finds you handsome.

But I don't see how she can be attracted to a guy and not want sex. I thought that was the very definition of attraction... wanting to have sex with someone. 

Do others have a different definition?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Question: do you know what sucks worse than 14 months of a sexless marriage?

Answer: 14 months and one day.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Does she know that you are on the verge of ending the marriage? If not please tell her before you start the divorce. To tell her out of the blue that you are divorcing her is cruel and dangerous. 

A long time married lady I used to know got up one morning and found an envelope in the kitchen with the divorce papers inside. She was completely devastated, she had no idea that this was going to happen and has a massive break down. She spent 3 months in a mental hospital. So please tell her and warn her, especially as you have children who will also be deeply affected.
Another man I met at a divorce recovery workshop whose wife had just up and left after a long marriage. He had no idea that she was thing of doing this. I can still remember his total shock and devastation. You could see it on his face.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Have the two of you ever been to marriage counseling and talked about the sex issue? Have you ever told her that 'no sex' is a deal breaker for you?

How long have you not loved your wife?

Is there someone else you might like to start seeing when you get a divorce, or that you are already seeing? I ask that because most people don't fall out of love because of a lack of sex after being in a long marriage. They suffer, a lot, but they still love their spouse because they have other redeeming qualities that keep them in the marriage.

However, sex creates hormones in both men and women that draw them closer. You could be 'sex starved' and due to a lack of love hormones (oxytocin more specifically) you think you don't love your wife.

Divorce will not only affect you (Make you happier?? Think splitting all assets and debts, losing your house, not seeing your children every day, alimony, child support, etc. and you won't be very happy) but it will affect your wife and your children. If there is anything you can do to resuscitate your marriage, I would start there before you divorce.

I agree with @Diana7 that you need to have a heart to heart with your wife, and you need to tell her you are looking into divorce and it is not only due to the lack of sex. Then ask her if she will go to counseling with you, and tell her that another requirement for your staying married is for her to go to the Dr. or a counselor to fix her sex adversion.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Spartan01 said:


> Yes - not her thing. Doesn’t enjoy it, has never had orgasm, has never masturbated. I don’t want it from her anymore and used to be sexually attracted to her. Just can’t get myself to have sex just to get my rocks off. I can do that myself.
> 
> The last time we did it I stopped in the middle of it because I realized I was fighting the impossible. Just couldn’t do it - I was done trying to make something out of nothing. No more gas left in the tank.
> 
> ...


romance/sexuality is what makes our Special Someone special and sets that relationship apart from all others. It is a glue that bonds a man and a woman as one and is the special connection that holds them together through the good times and bad. 

If that isn't there, then that person becomes just another person. 

That special connection and bond has dissolved and no longer holds you on to each other.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Does she know that you are on the verge of ending the marriage? If not please tell her before you start the divorce.
> 
> A long time married lady I used to know got up one morning and found an envelope in the kitchen with the divorce papers inside. She was completely devastated, she had no idea that this was going to happen and has a massive break down. She spent 3 months in a mental hospital. So please tell her and warn her, especially as you have children who will also be deeply affected.


I am not saying that he should not inform her, but lets be real here; she knows that they haven't had sex in 14 months and she knows that he is not good with that. 

Unless he is some kind of sociopath or BPD person himself that has been promising her his undying love and devotion and telling her all along that he will love her to the end of time despite the lack of romance in their marriage, she has to know or should know that this is a very real possibility. 

Besides, what will telling her accomplish? she will start loving him and desiring him??????

It's been over a year and supposedly she was never into him so will the knowledge of his intention to start divorce proceedings change that and instill her with love and desire? 

Best case scenario here is she says "ok" and they start working collaboratively towards an amicable divorce. 

Worst case scenario is she cries and begs makes promises and starts putting out for a few weeks doing something she doesn't want to do and gets his hopes up and they spend a handful of months fumbling around awkwardly and uncomfortably in bed until it dries up again and it is another 14 months until he realizes he was duped. 

And by that time he has burned up a couple more years of his life chasing a mirage. 

It's fine to tell her and in the big scheme of things it probably is the more moral and ethical path. But it's highly doubtful anything useful will come of it and it does carry some potential pitfalls. 


Assuming he is serious and is going to actually go through with this, is it really going to matter if she finds out on a Sunday vs a Thursday?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Spartan01 said:


> Yes - not her thing. Doesn’t enjoy it, has never had orgasm, has never masturbated. I don’t want it from her anymore and used to be sexually attracted to her. Just can’t get myself to have sex just to get my rocks off. I can do that myself.
> 
> The last time we did it I stopped in the middle of it because I realized I was fighting the impossible. Just couldn’t do it - I was done trying to make something out of nothing. No more gas left in the tank.
> 
> ...


Obviously this isn't personal to me, but I still feel really bad for you and your wife. There have been multitudes of sexually unhappy marriages like yours over the centuries, so know that you're not alone because this is nothing new. Your marriage might soon be over just because neither of you really understand about sex and the female gender. An awful lot of men have thought that humping intercourse is supposed to be pleasurable for her like it is for him, but that's not the way it goes. It happened to be your bad luck that no one ever taught you, but try to understand that it means no one ever taught her either. Men don't have to be taught how to make it feel good to them. Because of the way you are built, it's pretty much automatic, but very much more complicated for her because of the way she's built. How to make sex good for the woman is something both men and women have to be taught. So, she has spent her marriage sexually dissatisfied and as a result, you think it's not her thing and she doesn't enjoy, and you say that it as if it's not possible for her to enjoy it. In the past, women have been called names like "frigid" and "cold fish," but I haven't heard those words very much in recent decades. Nevertheless, those words and the terms you used are labels borne of lack of understanding because there was nothing for her to enjoy. I'm not saying you are to blame. I'm saying neither of you ever learned, so try to think of it in terms of how, with the exception of the past 14 months, she spent all these years doing it just for you because she got nothing out of it and ended up feeling there was nothing in it for her. Sex might have felt nice or okay, but if it doesn't take a woman anywhere, she's left wondering what is the point, so she starts thinking she doesn't enjoy sex and doesn't want to be bothered. But she still did it for you until she grew despondent over the whole thing. Please don't feel bad or offended by what I'm saying because I'm not attacking you and really want you to listen to what I'm saying. 

I was your wife in my first marriage. We were very young and inexperienced and didn't know what we were doing. He humped and got his rocks off and thought that since it was good for him, then it was good for me too, but I was left feeling like his receptacle. I didn't like, and didn't appreciate, that feeling. Had my first marriage lasted any longer than the 2 years that it did last, I would have very much ended up thinking and feeling exactly the way your wife does. Neither of us had any idea how to make sex good for me too. We both had the same assumption that you hump during intercourse, that would do the trick, and that's all that was required. But it does the trick for the man, not the woman. I have to give the guy credit because he did try to please me. He was willing to do everything and introduced me to oral sex even though he was a virgin when we got together. He would go down on me, but he didn't know how to do that properly either, and I didn't know how it should be done, so I couldn't help or instruct him. He'd be down there doing whatever he was doing, but it didn't feel good. That happens too, and is also the reason some women end up saying they don't like oral sex. But when intercourse and oral sex are performed properly, sex is good for both parties. I didn't discover this until after my divorce and subsequently was with more experienced boyfriends (not at the same time of course).

Just like my first husband was more than willing to try to please me, you may have been willing to please your wife. I've noticed on this board and others that men are very often eager and willing to please their woman, willing to do whatever it takes and whatever she needs, but come here with your same complaint. What you guys don't understand is your wife is clueless as to what pleases her until such time as she is pleased. Until she experiences sexual pleasure, she has no idea how it can be achieved, and so she's unable to help you. And then, after x number of years, she gives up because no woman enjoys feeling like his appliance or wet sock. It's a terrible feeling. I feel for the guys in all the threads like yours that I read. There is no reason whatsoever for you to be expected to know what to do for her and how to do it, and it's a perfectly reasonable expectation that your wife should be able to guide you. As sensible and reasonable as all this sounds, it simply is not so simple. I'm telling you the way it goes for women. Our anatomy is more complicated than yours, so nothing happens as easily as it does for you or in the same ways. 

You also mentioned that she has never masturbated, but that's not something you should say with such contempt because it's not something women learn to do during adolescence like men do because we don't have the same raging hormones that guys have. Plus, girls are taught differently. We're taught modesty, so touching ourselves is kind of a taboo subject that we ended up too shy to so much as even consider, or at least it used to be. I do realize girls are masturbating these days now that seemingly everything surrounding the subject of sex is so common and open now. But you've been married over 20 years, so your wife is not contemporary. She came up relatively old school. Old school women didn't dare masturbate or use toys until such time of their sexual awakening. Their sexual awakening comes with the discovery of sexual pleasure as being derived from the sexual education we receive from men more knowledgeable and more experienced than ourselves. Once we experience sexual pleasure and having orgasms, we want those feelings and climaxes again and again, and we become less, much less, inhibited. We then become more willing and eager to try different things.

I'm sorry if this is a heavy weight to bear, but, again, this is the way it goes in, obviously not all but, most cases.

Before you begin divorce proceedings, I implore you to make the effort to become the master of your wife's sexual awakening. If you can succeed (and you have to perform with confidence like you know what you're doing because a shy and inexperienced woman hates feeling like a man's experiment or guinea pig, so maybe practice a few times in your mind and your with your fingers), it can be very rewarding for both of you. Read my response here. I offered some suggestions, methods, and techniques you can employ to make sex enjoyable for your wife. And you will enjoy yourself too while you're doing them. 

Consider also that it's been so long that she gave up hope, and it's been so long since last you tried to engage her in sex. 14 months is a long time and given the circumstances, she's probably been glad that you haven't tried. She might not welcome your advances, but, for both your sakes, do whatever it takes to get her in bed again. And then rock her world. I really wish you both well.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Araucaria said:


> Have the two of you ever been to marriage counseling and talked about the sex issue? Have you ever told her that 'no sex' is a deal breaker for you?
> 
> How long have you not loved your wife?
> 
> ...


I am not singling out Araucaria, I am just quoting this for conceptual reference,


Why is it that people tend to assume that people wake up on a Tuesday morning deciding they are going to divorce and then get into the lawyer's office that afternoon so they have their STBX served the next morning?

Excluding a few bipolars and the BPDers and the sociopaths that may swing wildly in their emotional state, most normal, healthy, decent people spend years and many multiple years spiraling downward and often times have had countless discussions and arguments, multiple counseling attempts, temporary separations and attempted reconciliations before finally pulling the ejection handle. 

I am not familiar with Spartan's backstory but I am assuming this is an issue that has been ongoing for years and he/they have finally just reached a point of exhaustion and defeat.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I am thinking she is gay and doesn’t realize/want to admit it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

She has broken a marital promise, plain and simple.

Make it clear what you are considering.

If she suddenly changes.....see how long it lasts.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

StarFires said:


> Obviously this isn't personal to me, but I still feel really bad for you and your wife. There have been multitudes of sexually unhappy marriages like yours over the centuries, so know that you're not alone because this is nothing new. Your marriage might soon be over just because neither of you really understand about sex and the female gender. An awful lot of men have thought that humping intercourse is supposed to be pleasurable for her like it is for him, but that's not the way it goes. It happened to be your bad luck that no one ever taught you, but try to understand that it means no one ever taught her either. Men don't have to be taught how to make it feel good to them. Because of the way you are built, it's pretty much automatic, but very much more complicated for her because of the way she's built. How to make sex good for the woman is something both men and women have to be taught. So, she has spent her marriage sexually dissatisfied and as a result, you think it's not her thing and she doesn't enjoy, and you say that it as if it's not possible for her to enjoy it. In the past, women have been called names like "frigid" and "cold fish," but I haven't heard those words very much in recent decades. Nevertheless, those words and the terms you used are labels borne of lack of understanding because there was nothing for her to enjoy. I'm not saying you are to blame. I'm saying neither of you ever learned, so try to think of it in terms of how, with the exception of the past 14 months, she spent all these years doing it just for you because she got nothing out of it and ended up feeling there was nothing in it for her. Sex might have felt nice or okay, but if it doesn't take a woman anywhere, she's left wondering what is the point, so she starts thinking she doesn't enjoy sex and doesn't want to be bothered. But she still did it for you until she grew despondent over the whole thing. Please don't feel bad or offended by what I'm saying because I'm not attacking you and really want you to listen to what I'm saying.
> 
> I was your wife in my first marriage. We were very young and inexperienced and didn't know what we were doing. He humped and got his rocks off and thought that since it was good for him, then it was good for me too, but I was left feeling like his receptacle. I didn't like, and didn't appreciate, that feeling. Had my first marriage lasted any longer than the 2 years that it did last, I would have very much ended up thinking and feeling exactly the way your wife does. Neither of us had any idea how to make sex good for me too. We both had the same assumption that you hump during intercourse, that would do the trick, and that's all that was required. But it does the trick for the man, not the woman. I have to give the guy credit because he did try to please me. He was willing to do everything and introduced me to oral sex even though he was a virgin when we got together. He would go down on me, but he didn't know how to do that properly either, and I didn't know how it should be done, so I couldn't help or instruct him. He'd be down there doing whatever he was doing, but it didn't feel good. That happens too, and is also the reason some women end up saying they don't like oral sex. But when intercourse and oral sex are performed properly, sex is good for both parties. I didn't discover this until after my divorce and subsequently was with more experienced boyfriends (not at the same time of course).
> 
> ...


So let me see if I got this straight - you dumped your first H after a couple years because he was a dud in bed and couldn't get you off, (and who by yoru own admission was trying) but after 20 years of trying, Spartan should "master his wife's 'sexual awakening'" now and get her to bed him again and rock her world?????


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## cc48kel (Apr 5, 2017)

Herschel said:


> I am thinking she is gay and doesn’t realize/want to admit it.


I bet she's just focused on her kids and taking care of her home. If she too then I understand why sex isn't on her list. OR I hate to say this but it does happen-- she could be having an affair. 

I wonder if there was ever any kind of counseling if there was and no change then yes divorce is in order.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I also was told I was cruel and heartless for not telling my spouse I was considering divorce. After a few years of this I have come to the conclusion that there is no need to tell her that the goal she has been working for every day will soon be achieved. 420 nights without sex, she knows what is coming.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

cc48kel said:


> I bet she's just focused on her kids and taking care of her home. If she too then I understand why sex isn't on her list. OR I hate to say this but it does happen-- she could be having an affair.
> 
> I wonder if there was ever any kind of counseling if there was and no change then yes divorce is in order.


I don’t see how sex isn’t on your list. You are married and intimacy is the most important thing between two people. If you are focused on your kids and not wanting to be intimate, then you can do that as a single mom cause I don’t need no roommate. 

Maybe an affair, but 3 kids and never wanting sex? Either something traumatic happened to her or she likes girls.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

I just remembered a scene from a movie that I like. It's called "Secretary" with James Spader and Maggie Gyllenhaal. There's a sex scene in the movie between the protagonist Lee Holloway (Maggie's character) and Peter (Jeremy Davies). I'd like you to see that scene to get the idea I'm trying to describe some women experience during sex while the man thinks she should be enjoying it. You might consider it a girlie movie but please watch it anyway, it's still a good movie and a little bit weird. I think Netflix offers it and if you don't subscribe to Netflix, you can sign up and have it free for the first 30 days and then cancel the subscription before being charged if you don't want to keep it. Or, you can rent it for 4 bucks on Amazon and watch online immediately.

So, I responded to your post before reading any of the responses. Now that I went through and read them, it's not surprising that the exact same vein of content and sentiment runs through every single post like yours. 

The first is encouragement to divorce. 
Please don't listen to them. You are unhappy and vulnerable right now, and these types of responses might be have more effect on you than they should, especially since you are straddling that line already due to your unhappiness. But these people don't live your life for you. They don't know you. They don't know your wife. They have no idea the motivations behind anything that either of you feel or do. They aren't raising your children. When you blow up your world, theirs will remain as wonderful or as sorry as they are currently. They will in no way be affected by the choices you make, only you and your family will be affected, and no one here knows the extent of the devastation they could cause in your life or the long-term effects. They should be trying to encourage you to find a way to save your marriage and offering methods to employ. Instead, some of them advise you to do what they, themselves, don't have the nerve to do. And something I also noticed are the contradictions between threads on the board. A guy stated his wife told him that she thinks/expects/hopes (whichever word she used) he will cease to have a libido after 60 or so. She got railed for thinking such a thing as if unheard of and how dare she. Yet, someone just told you in so many words the expectation of your active sex life to age 60 or so. Exact same thing.

The second is the *just do it* mentality. 
I hate the implication that a woman is supposed to just spread her legs whenever as if she is an apparatus or piece of furniture. She is not.

There are 4 reasons a woman doesn't want sex:
1. Boredom from dissatisfaction.
2. How she's treated outside the bedroom.
3. An illness or condition of some sort 
4. Medication for an illness or birth control pills.

If you don't please your wife in bed, she doesn't want to have sex, and she will also lose respect for you. If you mistreat and/or disrespect your wife in any way in your daily lives, she will not want to have sex with you, and she will also lose respect for you.

You didn't come here telling us of any reasons that your wife doesn't want sex. You only said she doesn't. I gather you don't know the reasons and explained, to extensive degree, what one reason could be because I know that one to be very common. I later read you saying she never really wanted sex, so there is a very good probability that what I explained truly is the problem and always has been. It could be that, or there could be some other reason. You haven't tried to find out. You're just unhappy and sulky that you're not getting sex, but it should behoove you find out the reason and try to remedy the situation. I gave you enough information to begin with. Do everything you can to save your marriage, and don't listen to people telling you to throw a bomb on it.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

If I may ask a question. Is she catholic? Catholic women have huge hang ups with sex, particularly if they went to catholic schools and were taught by nuns. Not knocking Catholics just stating facts as I am one.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

visit asexuality.org lots of useful information. It won't improve your situation but may help explain it. 




Spartan01 said:


> Yes - not her thing. Doesn’t enjoy it, has never had orgasm, has never masturbated. I don’t want it from her anymore and used to be sexually attracted to her. Just can’t get myself to have sex just to get my rocks off. I can do that myself.
> 
> The last time we did it I stopped in the middle of it because I realized I was fighting the impossible. Just couldn’t do it - I was done trying to make something out of nothing. No more gas left in the tank.
> 
> ...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

StarFires said:


> I just remembered a scene from a movie that I like. It's called "Secretary" with James Spader and Maggie Gyllenhaal. There's a sex scene in the movie between the protagonist Lee Holloway (Maggie's character) and Peter (Jeremy Davies). I'd like you to see that scene to get the idea I'm trying to describe some women experience during sex while the man thinks she should be enjoying it. You might consider it a girlie movie but please watch it anyway, it's still a good movie and a little bit weird. I think Netflix offers it and if you don't subscribe to Netflix, you can sign up and have it free for the first 30 days and then cancel the subscription before being charged if you don't want to keep it. Or, you can rent it for 4 bucks on Amazon and watch online immediately.
> 
> So, I responded to your post before reading any of the responses. Now that I went through and read them, it's not surprising that the exact same vein of content and sentiment runs through every single post like yours.
> 
> ...


I think you missed a reason or two there. It's very convenient that you bring up four reasons, two of which are nobody's fault and two of which are the man's fault. Wanna' take a stab at what's missing?

Btw, nobody here is suggesting that women should spread their legs on demand... the point is that if they dont want to, EVER, then something is seriously wrong.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I am not saying that he should not inform her, but lets be real here; she knows that they haven't had sex in 14 months and she knows that he is not good with that.
> 
> Unless he is some kind of sociopath or BPD person himself that has been promising her his undying love and devotion and telling her all along that he will love her to the end of time despite the lack of romance in their marriage, she has to know or should know that this is a very real possibility.
> 
> ...


Its amazing how many people will just dump a divorce on their spouses without ever telling them how unhappy they are or that they are thinking of ending the marriage. I have read of such situations even on this forum quite a few times. Its plain cruel and risks terrible shock and trauma as the family falls apart. 
At the very least he needs to talk to her about how unhappy he is and that he wants them to seek help to try and fix things, rather than just destroying his family with no warning. 
Any couple in this situation should do all they can to work on the marriage before they take this drastic step, especially if they are children who will be so devastated. 

I realise that some here will always advise ending a marriage for this reason and other reasons, but divorce must be the very last resort and only for the most serious things. If both make a real effort over the long term then most marriages can be saved. I guess divorce has become the thing to do when things aren't as we would like them to be, but when we have responsibilities, especially children, they much always come first and not ourselves.


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> If I may ask a question. Is she catholic? Catholic women have huge hang ups with sex, particularly if they went to catholic schools and were taught by nuns. Not knocking Catholics just stating facts as I am one.




Yes - Catholic. She has stated in the past that her up bringing has some to do with it. 


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

All - we have discussed my unhappiness. I think a lot of it is in me - when I am with her it’s like I am having sex with an empty body. Like no one is there. I can’t feel any passion or intimacy or love. 


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Had an ex boyfriend try, very strongly and contentiously, to tell me what labor and child birth were like. Such a joke. So funny how some guys do these types of things, and then expect me to answer to them. Not even on my radar.


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

Too add - she knows divorce is on the table. Doesn’t seem to be worked up about it and realizes that time is not on our side. She tried to kiss me at midnight on New Years night. I pulled back. The next morning she asked me about and told her I wasn’t in the mood for it. I didn’t lie - I just didn’t want to kiss her. 


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

She isn't trying because you just don't mean that much to her. You've stayed so far. Your words and talk are meaningless now. You taught her what you'll accept. 

The good thing is if you wallow in this long enough when you get in your mid 50's and lose our libido you'll be fine.


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

StarFires said:


> I just remembered a scene from a movie that I like. It's called "Secretary" with James Spader and Maggie Gyllenhaal. There's a sex scene in the movie between the protagonist Lee Holloway (Maggie's character) and Peter (Jeremy Davies). I'd like you to see that scene to get the idea I'm trying to describe some women experience during sex while the man thinks she should be enjoying it. You might consider it a girlie movie but please watch it anyway, it's still a good movie and a little bit weird. I think Netflix offers it and if you don't subscribe to Netflix, you can sign up and have it free for the first 30 days and then cancel the subscription before being charged if you don't want to keep it. Or, you can rent it for 4 bucks on Amazon and watch online immediately.
> 
> So, I responded to your post before reading any of the responses. Now that I went through and read them, it's not surprising that the exact same vein of content and sentiment runs through every single post like yours.
> 
> ...




Watching Secretary now. 


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Glad you're watching the movie. Just want you to see what it's like for some women. If you spent your married life going about your business on top of her the way that guy does, you can see how she felt. There's nothing to be ashamed of if you did. You just hadn't learned and neither did she. It wasn't ideal but can be remedied.

You said before that she doesn't make you confident or feel loved. Try to understand those are both a 2-way street. You should do that for each other. It isn't possible for one party to be responsible for the success or failure of a marriage, except in the case of infidelity. There are women who know how to nurture a man. It took me some time to realize that men needed nurturing just like I needed, but know also that we women often take our cues from men. If a woman is neglected in bed, it's hard for her to have much regard for him because she takes that as him not having much regard for her. When you start rocking her world in the bedroom, you'll see a change in her too.



Spartan01 said:


> Yes - Catholic. She has stated in the past that her up bringing has some to do with it.


Yes, I mentioned that in my first response to you. But as I also mentioned, you can make her inhibitions fall away. To share a little more of my own story, my second boyfriend (2 years or so after my divorce) told me "A man wants a lady by day and a w--re in bed." Well, I was naive and still a little bit Miss Prissy Two-Shoes, so I pretty much ignored him. No way was I ever going to act in any way or be consider a w--re by any stretch of the word. But guess what? I experienced my first orgasm with him. He introduced toys to me. I found myself agreeing to try other things, some I liked and some I didn't and refused to do again. He taught me different ways he could make me reach orgasm, and he taught me to masturbate, whereas before that you couldn't pay me to touch myself. TMI I know lol, but I have to be honest if I call myself trying to help you. 

That guy was good at many things and good at teaching me things, and I was gladly his proverbial w--re in bed. Other boyfriends through the years were better at some things, so I had the benefit of experience from a few in learning both the many ways I could be pleased and the ways I could please them. I was single for over 20 years. For over 20 years, your wife has only had you and you have only had her. Whoever came before you found each other (if there were others before) was in the same naive and inexperienced position I was in. That's the way it goes for most people. Some get lucky the first or second time, others don't. But this can be your time though. You never know until you try.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Spartan01 said:


> She says I am handsome and is attracted to me. I however have lost the attraction to her. Not sure I love her anymore. She doesn’t make me laugh, she’s not my best friend, and finally we have nothing in common.


That's so sad. Did you use to be in love with her? Did she use to make you laugh? If you used to have magic with her, and you could get it back, would you be happy? 

If you were always HD compared to her LD, you may be very mismatched there.


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

WorkingWife said:


> That's so sad. Did you use to be in love with her? Did she use to make you laugh? If you used to have magic with her, and you could get it back, would you be happy?
> 
> 
> 
> If you were always HD compared to her LD, you may be very mismatched there.




I don’t think I ever have and that’s the problem. 


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Spartan01 said:


> I don’t think I ever have and that’s the problem.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We'll skip the obvious why did you marry her if you didn't love her and go to a more current question. Is there any chance she knows you never loved her? That'd sure explain her not wanting to have sex with you.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Spartan01 said:


> I don’t think I ever have and that’s the problem.


uuuummmm I thought you were here complaining of your wife's disinterest in sex. I think we all thought that and replied on that basis. I became a little confused by one of your responses, but I nixed it thinking your lack of interest was due to her lack of enthusiasm. But now it sounds like you're definitely saying you are the one with no interest and never was.

So, please explain specifically what the problem is. Is she the disinterested party or are you the disinterested party?


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Spartan01 said:


> I don’t think I ever have and that’s the problem.


That is definitely a problem. I was going to suggest you check out MarriageBuilders.com because they have some really good stuff on making marriage work and it addresses your issues. If you are not 100% certain you want to divorce, I would say give it a try. You might be incredibly, pleasantly surprised.

It's hard though if you are HD and she is LD and even if the magic was there she wouldn't want sex they way you do. Women stop wanting sex for a lot of reasons that can usually be fixed by a man who is willing to care about her needs the way he wants her to care about his. But if she really finds you attractive but wasn't sexual even when things were new and fresh, that's probably always going to be a struggle, and you'll always feel something is missing in your relationship.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

I think most people would be LD if they never had an orgasm during sex. She may have a disorder, but even if she doesn't she needs some help. You two should have been to marriage counseling a long time ago to get this issue resolved. She couldn't possibly even know that she's got a low drive if she's never had an orgasm. She needs to learn to orgasm. This should be addressed in therapy.

You married her for a reason. Not having a sexually satisfying marriage does not lead to a healthy marriage. If you two could have a sexually satisfying marriage that could solve a lot of the issue the two of you are facing. I think it's really sad that you are thinking of divorce without having sought serious outside help to resolve this problem, but instead putting it down to you being HD and her being LD. As I stated, anyone who wasn't getting satisfaction from their sexual relationship would be LD pretty quickly.

I recommend you try to find a Catholic marriage counselor who understands your issues, if at all possible.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Tatsuhiko said:


> The problem is that even if she's willing to make changes at this point, the changes will always seem artificial or forced, and that just doesn't "count" somehow.


Or, she won't keep up the effort and you'll see a reversion to her typical sex drive (or perhaps even lower) if the issues inhibiting her sex drive aren't addressed.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Does she know that you are on the verge of ending the marriage? If not please tell her before you start the divorce. To tell her out of the blue that you are divorcing her is cruel and dangerous.


I'm sorry, but I don't buy this. I think the vast majority women expect that prolonged sexual unhappiness will end a relationship. And if not, the OP's unhappiness must be palpable by this point. I can't imagine that she'd be significantly surprised that her husband, who historically has regularly sought sex but now stopped asking over a year ago, wants out.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

StarFires said:


> When you start rocking her world in the bedroom, you'll see a change in her too.
> 
> Yes, I mentioned that in my first response to you. But as I also mentioned, you can make her inhibitions fall away.


Neither one of these is necessarily true. My marriage was proof of that.

My ex seemingly wasn't satisfied with just intercourse only. So, after many attempts, I convinced her to try oral on her. And I'm good at it - she was having fairly quick orgasms every time. Guess what? It didn't change her drive at all. She just didn't have much drive and had hangups she wasn't willing to address. I was told that she wanted a decent, attractive guy who would be successful and support a family, and chose me to fill the role.

And (according to our daughter) she pulled the same thing on her second husband as well. So I don't think it was just a line she fed me ("it's not you, it's me - I don't want it with anybody). Sometimes ladies just want to have a guy around for myriad reasons without wanting sex - from him or anyone else.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

You take a couple lines from one of my posts and turn that into me suggesting oral sex will change her sex drive? You know better than everybody, don't you?


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> We'll skip the obvious why did you marry her if you didn't love her and go to a more current question. Is there any chance she knows you never loved her? That'd sure explain her not wanting to have sex with you.




Ever do something when your young and then look back later?


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

StarFires said:


> uuuummmm I thought you were here complaining of your wife's disinterest in sex. I think we all thought that and replied on that basis. I became a little confused by one of your responses, but I nixed it thinking your lack of interest was due to her lack of enthusiasm. But now it sounds like you're definitely saying you are the one with no interest and never was.
> 
> So, please explain specifically what the problem is. Is she the disinterested party or are you the disinterested party?




She is the disinterested party - I have no interest now. Just because it’s always been a struggle and I am tired of fighting the fight. I have plenty of interest. 


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

CynthiaDe said:


> I think most people would be LD if they never had an orgasm during sex. She may have a disorder, but even if she doesn't she needs some help. You two should have been to marriage counseling a long time ago to get this issue resolved. She couldn't possibly even know that she's got a low drive if she's never had an orgasm. She needs to learn to orgasm. This should be addressed in therapy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




She doesn’t believe in counseling. 


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oops... lots of resentment going on here... if you have lost attraction to your wife now, because of her disinterest, then I don't think you have many options... were you staying for the kids? How old are they?

BTW... 12 months here... :laugh:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

DTO said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't buy this. I think the vast majority women expect that prolonged sexual unhappiness will end a relationship. And if not, the OP's unhappiness must be palpable by this point. I can't imagine that she'd be significantly surprised that her husband, who historically has regularly sought sex but now stopped asking over a year ago, wants out.


I don't know. I can imagine she might be thinking like oh good, having paid my dues that nonsense is finally over. I have a friend, well former friend, who felt like this. She just could not wait until her husband stopped wanting sex, thinking it was normal sometime around 50. I feel so bad for the guy.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Spartan01 said:


> She doesn’t believe in counseling.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Convenient.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Let's take Spartan at his word that this has been addressed throughout their 20 year marriage and she is aware there is a problem for which she has chosen to not seek professional counseling etc. 

Let's face the fact that this isn't the result of her having a headache and rejected his overatures last Thursday and he having a hissy fit and threatening divorce over now out of the blue.

This has been a chronic, long term, unrelenting issue that has been going on for years and years despite his efforts. It's been 20 years and there never has been good sexual chemistry. I think things like 'rocking her world in the bedroom' and 'mastering her sexual awakening' and such kind of borders on lunacy. 

Saying Hail Marys and having Corinthians read to them is not going to make her horny and want to jump his bones. 

Divorce does not occur in a day. A 20 year marriage with kids can take many months to a year or more to carry out. Sure, I think it is simply the right thing to do to give notice of your intentions. But getting served papers and being given 60 days notice to disclose your financials and present your custody case is the real wake-up call that your spouse is serious and isn't just whining and blowing smoke. 

Many jurisdictions require court-mandated counseling in cases involving children so it doesn't matter if she believes in counseling or not. 

A divorce can be called off at any time if someone does happen to do a complete turnaround.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> If I may ask a question. Is she catholic? Catholic women have huge hang ups with sex, particularly if they went to catholic schools and were taught by nuns. Not knocking Catholics just stating facts as I am one.


I'm not Catholic, being raised as a nominally Protestant godless heathen.

Yet my wife and ex-wife were both raised Catholic, with my wife going to Catholic schools in Australia, while my ex-wife went to them in England. Through the 1970s and 1980s where Nuns and Brothers et al, were part of their experience.

I've also had sex with plenty of other Catholic women as well. Since for reasons that I can't explain, more Catholic women seem to get with me than any other kind.

In my experience with Catholic women and before that, with 16-17 year old Catholic girls when I was 16-18. It has been the "Catholic" females, who have been the most sexually; keen, forward, willing, lustful, wanton, kinky, good and game. This includes Catholic women from different European counties, the British Isles and Australia.

Although the downside of this has been, me seeing the inside of more Catholic Churches and Cathedrals than I care for. I think *it's a bit of a stretch to blame being raised Catholic for the occurrence of dead bedrooms*. Especially when I've always experienced a smorgasbord of plentiful sexual delights with different Catholic women through weeks, months, years and in the last instance multiple decades (while she snores next to me).

Such problems are variable as are the people in them, where behaviour, responses and choices also vary in such situations.

Marrying someone where it wasn't that great to begin with will take a toll. As will not fixing it early on or ending the marriage absent that resolution. *Not having orgasms* (which ought to turn any woman or man off sex), not addressing that from all sides, pressing on for decades despite that. Withholding six from a spouse, because their spouse did it to them and on and on etc, will als take a toll.

It's all pretty sad really. Yet if one or all parties, can't be bothered addressing things and loving each other enough. There's not much of any value that is worth carrying on with.

@Spartan01 there's no way I would have let this ride for the decades you have. Nor would I have waited 14 months of withholding sex to test and to perhaps punish my spouse for not initiating. At the end of the day, you and your wife both own your dead bedroom having both nurtured and grown it together.

That said, absent any substantial resolve from her and you to fix this, I don't see much point in trying to spin the merry-go-round one more time.

Presuming you haven't been cheating on your wife, with another or others? If you can turn the sexual tap off for 14 months. Don't be surprised to find out, that you might not be especially keen or good and game sexually either.

That said only time and an/other/ partner/s will tell. Who knows maybe you will both find more compatible sexual mates and enjoy yourselves, or maybe not.

Either way, I hope you both find a better situation whatever that might be.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I just read your "story" thread... your youngest is 13... so, another 5 years until she is off to wherever... then pack your bags. This is what I'm doing after my wife unilaterally decided she didn't want any more sex... you have plenty of time to prepare yourself and your family for the inevitable. And you will be 53: lots of time still to enjoy yourself with a woman who really loves you... life is short, make the most of it. Don't waste your last few years being miserable.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> I just read your "story" thread... your youngest is 13... so, another 5 years until she is off to wherever... then pack your bags. This is what I'm doing after my wife unilaterally decided she didn't want any more sex... you have plenty of time to prepare yourself and your family for the inevitable. And you will be 53: lots of time still to enjoy yourself with a woman who really loves you... life is short, make the most of it. Don't waste your last few years being miserable.


This is miserable for a few reasons.

First, life is short and man, if something happens to you, getting sick or whatever, during that time, you’ve wasted years.

Second, it’s a lie and you are teaching your kid that living a lie is more important than personal happiness. 

Third, you aren’t going to have sex for 5 more years. Say what?

I imagine this board as somewhat of a filter. If you are coming here to post your problems it means you want help, are looking to resolve and likely have tried various other things over the course of your life. Given those circumstances, I tend to give people here the benefit of a doubt when dealing with 1 aided stories.

In the real world, if there is a dead bed, there may be so much that lead up to it and if you hear just one side, that’s the problem, you only hear biased views. Clearly that could be the case here, but I give more leeway as the person opening up here isn’t looking for sympathy as much as resolution.

So, assuming you weren’t a grade a jackass, leave her as she has never really been with you, ever.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> I just read your "story" thread... your youngest is 13... so, another 5 years until she is off to wherever... then pack your bags. This is what I'm doing after my wife unilaterally decided she didn't want any more sex... you have plenty of time to prepare yourself and your family for the inevitable. And you will be 53: lots of time still to enjoy yourself with a woman who really loves you... life is short, make the most of it. Don't waste your last few years being miserable.


This is really bad advice. *Deliberately wait* 5 more years, then get a divorce? What a collosal waste of everyone's life.

If I knew my husband deliberately waited 5 years in a marriage with me, wanting and planning to get out that whole time, I'd lose my mind. If you're going to divorce me, don't do it when I'm 5 years OLDER.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Livvie said:


> This is really bad advice. *Deliberately wait* 5 more years, then get a divorce? What a collosal waste of everyone's life.
> 
> If I knew my husband deliberately waited 5 years in a marriage with me, wanting and planning to get out that whole time, I'd lose my mind. If you're going to divorce me, don't do it when I'm 5 years OLDER.



if he wants to be with the youngest until he/she leaves the nest... it's matter of choice. Is his sex life more important than looking after his youngest for a few more years? His wife knows he is not happy. He can tell his plan to his wife... 

Also, are you saying that after many years of sexual misery, he should be "nice" to his wife? Civil yes, but giving an actual sh!t? No, thanks...


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

StarFires said:


> Obviously this isn't personal to me, but I still feel really bad for you and your wife. There have been multitudes of sexually unhappy marriages like yours over the centuries, so know that you're not alone because this is nothing new. Your marriage might soon be over just because neither of you really understand about sex and the female gender. An awful lot of men have thought that humping intercourse is supposed to be pleasurable for her like it is for him, but that's not the way it goes. It happened to be your bad luck that no one ever taught you, but try to understand that it means no one ever taught her either. Men don't have to be taught how to make it feel good to them. Because of the way you are built, it's pretty much automatic, but very much more complicated for her because of the way she's built. How to make sex good for the woman is something both men and women have to be taught. So, she has spent her marriage sexually dissatisfied and as a result, you think it's not her thing and she doesn't enjoy, and you say that it as if it's not possible for her to enjoy it. In the past, women have been called names like "frigid" and "cold fish," but I haven't heard those words very much in recent decades. Nevertheless, those words and the terms you used are labels borne of lack of understanding because there was nothing for her to enjoy. I'm not saying you are to blame. I'm saying neither of you ever learned, so try to think of it in terms of how, with the exception of the past 14 months, she spent all these years doing it just for you because she got nothing out of it and ended up feeling there was nothing in it for her. Sex might have felt nice or okay, but if it doesn't take a woman anywhere, she's left wondering what is the point, so she starts thinking she doesn't enjoy sex and doesn't want to be bothered. But she still did it for you until she grew despondent over the whole thing. Please don't feel bad or offended by what I'm saying because I'm not attacking you and really want you to listen to what I'm saying.
> 
> I was your wife in my first marriage. We were very young and inexperienced and didn't know what we were doing. He humped and got his rocks off and thought that since it was good for him, then it was good for me too, but I was left feeling like his receptacle. I didn't like, and didn't appreciate, that feeling. Had my first marriage lasted any longer than the 2 years that it did last, I would have very much ended up thinking and feeling exactly the way your wife does. Neither of us had any idea how to make sex good for me too. We both had the same assumption that you hump during intercourse, that would do the trick, and that's all that was required. But it does the trick for the man, not the woman. I have to give the guy credit because he did try to please me. He was willing to do everything and introduced me to oral sex even though he was a virgin when we got together. He would go down on me, but he didn't know how to do that properly either, and I didn't know how it should be done, so I couldn't help or instruct him. He'd be down there doing whatever he was doing, but it didn't feel good. That happens too, and is also the reason some women end up saying they don't like oral sex. But when intercourse and oral sex are performed properly, sex is good for both parties. I didn't discover this until after my divorce and subsequently was with more experienced boyfriends (not at the same time of course).
> 
> ...



An insightful post. Women are very different from men as you say and humping, getting his rocks off is not going to do much for her to be sure. But it happens. Men can be selfish lovers but if the wife is not begging for it, it's because she is frigid, not putting out whatever. Sex is important in a marriage but so is mutual satisfaction. If it is all one sided, who is to blame?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Spartan01 said:


> I don’t think I ever have and that’s the problem.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So why did you marry her? Ok that was the obvious question. Sounds like you never had that spark with her. She knows it too. A woman who has been unloved and neglected for 20 years will not want to have sex with you ever. What makes you think you will sail off into the sunset with another adoring woman who will want to continually rock your world? Sex is not a one way street.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

OK for those of you blaming her disinterest in sex on Spartan not getting her to orgasm...…

Let's keep in mind she has not given him an orgasm in over 14 months. 

So may that perhaps be a factor in why he is losing interest in her then too hmmmmmm???

If we are going to say that not giving orgasms is the reason for the downhill spiral of the marriage, then don't you think that should apply to someone who has been rejecting their spouse sexually for over a year also?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Spartan01 said:


> Ever do something when your young and then look back later?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's why I skipped the former question and went to the latter. 

You seem to begin the thread complaining about no sex, it if you don't love her, why would she even want to have sex with you? 

Now it turns out your problem is much more basic and severe than a mere mismatch in sex drives. If you are divorcing, it has nothing to do with a lack of sex in the marriage and everything to do with a lack of love in the marriage.


By all means divorce... not because you aren't getting any, but rather to cut her loose as she deserves to be with someone who actually loves her.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Livvie said:


> This is really bad advice. *Deliberately wait* 5 more years, then get a divorce? What a collosal waste of everyone's life.
> 
> If I knew my husband deliberately waited 5 years in a marriage with me, wanting and planning to get out that whole time, I'd lose my mind. If you're going to divorce me, don't do it when I'm 5 years OLDER.


At this point, the daughter's happiness is more important than the wife's. If the wife hasn't clued into the bad state of the marriage by now and what it means, oh well. If she loses her mind in a few years, oh well, she should have been thinking about what a sexless marriage means for the future. I'm sure the OP has been losing his mind over the past 14 months feeling unwanted and she doesn't seem to be doing anything to fix it.

Thirteen is just about the worst age for a girl to deal with divorce. Middle school counselors have tons of stories about how almost all the troubled girls are from families of divorce. Sex, drugs, truancy, etc. It's not guaranteed to happen, but puberty, social pressures, and divorce happening all together is a recipe for trouble. If you can wait until she's 15-16, it will likely be a lot better for her. 

But we all understand that it isn't always possible to wait that long. If you end up divorcing, do it as softly as possible. There's no need to drop a bomb that destroys everyone. Divorce is hard enough no matter what. Your wife is an adult and should realize this is a natural consequence, but your kids are innocent. Try to ensure that any emotional consequences are minimized so that they don't have a lot of long-term consequences.


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Let's take Spartan at his word that this has been addressed throughout their 20 year marriage and she is aware there is a problem for which she has chosen to not seek professional counseling etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I would say this is correct description of our marriage. I am not going to rock her world in the bedroom because she’s chosen not to be that person. I am that person I’ve tried it all. I once bought her lingerie and toys to maybe spice it up. We tried it and then said that wasn’t her thing. I never had the problem of being attracted to her - I was into her but we would finish and all I ever felt was emptiness. 


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

wilson said:


> At this point, the daughter's happiness is more important than the wife's. If the wife hasn't clued into the bad state of the marriage by now and what it means, oh well. If she loses her mind in a few years, oh well, she should have been thinking about what a sexless marriage means for the future. I'm sure the OP has been losing his mind over the past 14 months feeling unwanted and she doesn't seem to be doing anything to fix it.
> 
> Thirteen is just about the worst age for a girl to deal with divorce. Middle school counselors have tons of stories about how almost all the troubled girls are from families of divorce. Sex, drugs, truancy, etc. It's not guaranteed to happen, but puberty, social pressures, and divorce happening all together is a recipe for trouble. If you can wait until she's 15-16, it will likely be a lot better for her.
> 
> But we all understand that it isn't always possible to wait that long. If you end up divorcing, do it as softly as possible. There's no need to drop a bomb that destroys everyone. Divorce is hard enough no matter what. Your wife is an adult and should realize this is a natural consequence, but your kids are innocent. Try to ensure that any emotional consequences are minimized so that they don't have a lot of long-term consequences.


Did you not read where the OP himself said he does not, and never has, loved his wife? He has zero grounds to complain about not getting any.

This is not just a sexless marriage, but a loveless one as well. There is nothing here to indicate the wife is clueless as to the state of the marriage.

And a loveless marriage can't help but be the foundation for an unhappy home. I'd be quite surprised if the daughter isn't already in tune with, and suffering under, the cloud of emotional death that inhabits the home.


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

Herschel said:


> This is miserable for a few reasons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don’t hate my wife. I think she is a nice person and in many ways has helped me become the person I am today. This however isn’t just a sexual issue - she isn’t my best friend, she doesn’t make me laugh, and we have absolutely nothing in common. If she were posting she would tell you the same thing - my only resentful feelings I have towards her is that I have tried to change, I’ve tried to recommend counseling, I’ve tried to explain the importance of all this in a marriage and she doesn’t reciprocate. Thru the years as with most people kids did come into it and yes I’ve thought about the lie i am teaching them. That they are learning this behavior and will probably bring it into their lives. They have seen me sleeping on the couch for the last year - and NO she hasn’t asked me to come sleep with her in bed. And there you have it. So how would you all feel if that were the case?



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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

wilson said:


> Thirteen is just about the worst age for a girl to deal with divorce. Middle school counselors have tons of stories about how almost all the troubled girls are from families of divorce. Sex, drugs, truancy, etc. It's not guaranteed to happen, but puberty, social pressures, and divorce happening all together is a recipe for trouble. If you can wait until she's 15-16, it will likely be a lot better for her.
> 
> .


The devil is in the details. 

I used to buy into all this 'divorce harms children' rhetoric, but as I get older and see the world through more experienced eyes, it is no longer that black and white. 

How the kids react depends more on specific family dynamics and parental interaction with them than whether the parents are legally married or not. 

In fact I have pretty much gotten to the point where I do not believe the parents actual legal marital status matters much or even at all. 

If both parents are loving and supportive and sane sober and self-supporting and involved in their kids lives. Then whether they are married to each other or living in the same house or not does not really matter. 

Likewise if they are drunk/addicted, abusive, neglectful or not supportive or in a chronically hostile environment, then yes the kids are going to be very negatively effected and damaged.....but again, they will be negatively effected even if the parents are legally married and under the same roof. (and there are certainly times where divorcing under those circumstances and getting out of the toxic environment is actually a benefit to the kids)

So in other words, the harm is coming from alcoholism/addiction, abuse, neglect, chronic hostility etc and actual marital status is not really factor either way. The children are harmed in those environments regardless of marital status and children from loving, supportive, healthy environments tend to do fine, again regardless of marital status. 

Are kids saddened and inconvenienced by divorce? Of course, everyone is. 

But sadness and inconvenience are just part and parcel of life and as long as there isn't any actual untreated depression, people survive temporary periods of sadness and inconvenience.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

After 20 years of inescapable catholic marriage Spartan can no longer remember any time at which his wife was interested in sex. He can no longer remember any time that he loved her. He can not remember having satisfying sexual intercourse with her. Those memories (if they really exist) have been overwritten by the current detached relationship. What exists now is the reality they live in. Does anyone have any evidence that Mrs Spartan01 wants to a) be married to him? b) have a sex life? c) have her world rocked? d) have a sexual awakening? Spartan certainly has no evidence. 

Some points against maintaining the marriage for any time:
A broken marriage is hard on kids whether or not the parents live together.
There is no marriage to save. 
There has already been a 14 month "separation".
She is unwilling to salvage the marriage.
He is unwilling to salvage the marriage. 

I'm not going to try to tell anyone how a woman feels, but I do have some experiential expertise as to how a man feels when he is living in a empty loveless relationship. 

Statistically 20 years is a success. nothing to feel bad about.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Did you not read where the OP himself said he does not, and never has, loved his wife? He has zero grounds to complain about not getting any.
> 
> This is not just a sexless marriage, but a loveless one as well. There is nothing here to indicate the wife is clueless as to the state of the marriage.
> 
> And a loveless marriage can't help but be the foundation for an unhappy home. I'd be quite surprised if the daughter isn't already in tune with, and suffering under, the cloud of emotional death that inhabits the home.


It sounds like they are just living as roommates. The kids probably notice that mom and dad aren't all lovey-dovey, but I don't get the sense that there's a lot of arguing and animosity displayed in the home. If we're just thinking about the kids, I might say that the current situation is best for them compared to divorce. But if life at home is a hell-hole, then the effects of divorce are probably worth it.

Certainly lack of intimacy is a solid reason for divorce. If it was just the two of them, that would definitely be the right course. But there are innocent kids involved, so the adults need to act like adults. Even if divorce is the right path, it should be done in a way so that the kids come out relatively unscathed. If the divorce is done to teach the wife a lesson or get retribution, then the kids will suffer.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> But sadness and inconvenience are just part and parcel of life and as long as there isn't any actual untreated depression, people survive temporary periods of sadness and inconvenience.


For emotionally stable people, yes, they'll get over it. But 13-year-olds are not always emotionally stable. That's when things like cutting, eating disorders, drugs, often get started. A lot of parents can speak from experience of the challenges they've faced with their tween girls and that's even in happy homes. I would say that's the most vulnerable age for a divorce. So if a divorce happens then, the parents need to be extra cautious and aware to ensure their daughter makes it through okay.

For everyone who is saying divorce won't affect a 13-year-old girl, I can only guess they were never parents of a girl. Not every girl will have problems getting through the tween years, but those that do can be quite challenging.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

wilson said:


> It sounds like they are just living as roommates. The kids probably notice that mom and dad aren't all lovey-dovey, but I don't get the sense that there's a lot of arguing and animosity displayed in the home. If we're just thinking about the kids, I might say that the current situation is best for them compared to divorce. But if life at home is a hell-hole, then the effects of divorce are probably worth it.
> 
> Certainly lack of intimacy is a solid reason for divorce. If it was just the two of them, that would definitely be the right course. But there are innocent kids involved, so the adults need to act like adults. Even if divorce is the right path, it should be done in a way so that the kids come out relatively unscathed. If the divorce is done to teach the wife a lesson or get retribution, then the kids will suffer.


It's great that the home remains civil.

However,...

Given that OP has said that kids have seen him sleeping on the couch, they are no doubt aware of the rift in the marriage. Spartan & wife are currently modeling non-loving behavior for their kids which is not good. Of course only they can decide if that crosses a threshold with divorce being the lesser of the evils.


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> OK for those of you blaming her disinterest in sex on Spartan not getting her to orgasm...…
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My point is she has made zero advances to get me to bedroom. So what does that tell you? And how do you think that makes me feel. I could count the number of times on one hand thru the years she has initiated - and I may be embellishing that number. 


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

wilson said:


> It sounds like they are just living as roommates. The kids probably notice that mom and dad aren't all lovey-dovey, but I don't get the sense that there's a lot of arguing and animosity displayed in the home. If we're just thinking about the kids, I might say that the current situation is best for them compared to divorce. But if life at home is a hell-hole, then the effects of divorce are probably worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly lack of intimacy is a solid reason for divorce. If it was just the two of them, that would definitely be the right course. But there are innocent kids involved, so the adults need to act like adults. Even if divorce is the right path, it should be done in a way so that the kids come out relatively unscathed. If the divorce is done to teach the wife a lesson or get retribution, then the kids will suffer.




For the most part a happy home - we don’t argue. Of course we really don’t talk much either. 


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Spartan01 said:


> My point is she has made zero advances to get me to bedroom. So what does that tell you? And how do you think that makes me feel. I could count the number of times on one hand thru the years she has initiated - and I may be embellishing that number.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you don't love her, it shouldn't make you feel any way in particular as you have no reasonable expectation of her desire for you.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Spartan01 said:


> For the most part a happy home - we don’t argue. *Of course we really don’t talk much either. *
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Which can be just as damaging.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

So it sounds like she is content with the status qou, I have you thought to talk to her about divorce? 
You should talk to a lawyer but I would not surprise her with papers, if at all possible tell her you stop to a lawyer and you want to progress with divorce...seeing that she is not cheating and your home life is rather clam for the most part. You owe her that consideration.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Spartan01 said:


> She doesn’t believe in counseling.


She might if you tell her you are either making some appointments with a counselor (and you expect her to fully participate and get to the bottom of this) or you are filing for divorce this week. I realize that's an ultimatum, but it at least gives her a chance to do something about this knowing full well what the consequences of refusing are. Dragging it on like this isn't doing any of you any good. But I really believe in seeking solutions and being clear about one's needs and what the consequences are if those valid needs are not met. You are demanding that she dress as Super Man and calling it a need. You are asking that she get help because her body isn't functioning properly and it's devastated your marriage.

Of course you think now that you never loved her, but please don't tell her that. You married her. Don't rewrite history because you're hurt.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

wilson said:


> So if a divorce happens then, the parents need to be extra cautious and aware to ensure their daughter makes it through okay.
> 
> For everyone who is saying divorce won't affect a 13-year-old girl, I can only guess they were never parents of a girl. .


I agree with the first statement above.

Parents will obviously need to continue to parent and be involved and supportive. 

And I am not saying there will not be an effect or impact. 

Divorce is a major life change for all involved.

What I am saying is that divorce does not result in automatic damage or dysfunction by simple virtue that the divorce occured. 

Parents will need to continue to parent.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

aine said:


> An insightful post. Women are very different from men as you say and humping, getting his rocks off is not going to do much for her to be sure. But it happens. Men can be selfish lovers but if the wife is not begging for it, it's because she is frigid, not putting out whatever. Sex is important in a marriage but so is mutual satisfaction. If it is all one sided, who is to blame?


Oh my word did you miss the point. And totally contradictory too.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> What I am saying is that divorce does not result in automatic damage or dysfunction by simple virtue that the divorce occured.


Yes it does.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

StarFires said:


> Yes it does.


No it doesn't.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Meanwhile, from the been there done that department...

I was fully prepared to drop the D-bomb (torpedo) and it was the good grace of TAM and fate that enabled us to a much cleaner, more amicable split. 

In terms of waiting... It really depends on how old you are. I'm 59 so a year or three early didn't make much difference to me. If I was 40, different story. I checked off the boxes about kids in the proper places in life, and that was that. 

It also depends on financial situation. We were earning about the same, no alimony etc, and only sticky point was paying for 2 last year's of DD's med school. Other than that it has been (thanks to significant planning on my behalf) pretty straightforward.

There's never a good time. That much I know. The grass may or may not be greener on the other side. It's something you do to save yourself. It's not a ticket to endless parties with single 50 year olds who are eager to drop their Flexees shapewear at the drop of a pin.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

john117 said:


> Meanwhile, from the been there done that department...
> 
> I was fully prepared to drop the D-bomb (torpedo) and it was the good grace of TAM and fate that enabled us to a much cleaner, more amicable split.
> 
> ...


Not wanting to totally threadjack but geez really?? Flexees shapewear?? I know a ton of in shape 50ish year old women. 50 doesn't have to mean fat.

I don't know what flexees are but I can guess by the name!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Spartan01 said:


> My point is she has made zero advances to get me to bedroom. So what does that tell you? And how do you think that makes me feel. I could count the number of times on one hand thru the years she has initiated - and I may be embellishing that number.


If she wasn't ever getting off, why would she want to do that?

Ugh!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> OK for those of you blaming her disinterest in sex on Spartan not getting her to orgasm...…


...Ever!!! :surprise::frown2:



oldshirt said:


> Let's keep in mind she has not given him an orgasm in over 14 months.


Following his decision to stop having sex with her.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Not wanting to totally threadjack but geez really?? Flexees shapewear?? I know a ton of in shape 50ish year old women. 50 doesn't have to mean fat.
> 
> I don't know what flexees are but I can guess by the name!


Trying to conjure an appropriate visual image here .

50 or 60 doesn't have to be out of shape, true. I saw the soon to be dearly departed at closing and it's clear 2 hours of gym a day has done wonders for her physique. She's turning 60 in a few months and is still quite the specimen. Pity it's wasted.

Personally, I prefer the "before" look from Jenny Craig or LA Fitness than the "after" look so... 

To return to the topic at hand, people are resilient. One year of separation did wonders for both of us. I still think of what we could have accomplished together had she made any effort to compromise. But, like her gym routine, it is what it is. 

Follow the Boy Scouts moto of Be Prepared or something like that and you'll be fine.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Spartan01 said:


> I would say this is correct description of our marriage. I am not going to rock her world in the bedroom because she’s chosen not to be that person.


You've got that backwards.

If you've never been able to rock her world sexually. Why on earth do you think she would be keen for a lot more of that kind of drudgery?



Spartan01 said:


> I am that person I’ve tried it all.


Then why hasn't she had any orgasms?



Spartan01 said:


> I once bought her lingerie and toys to maybe spice it up. We tried it and then said that wasn’t her thing.


So she tried it (which showed she was willing), and found out it wasn't her thing. Which is fine by the way, especially if she wasn't getting off.

Some women don't like the way manufactured toys feel inside of them and or find vibrating devices numbing rather than titilating. As to lingerie bearing in mind for the most part that is an item more aimed at visual appeal for you. Some of that can be uncomfortable to wear against ones skin, and in some instances can leave unwanted welts and marks depending upon what it is.

Lingerie and sex toys are poor stand-ins, for lovers that can't bring their sexual partners to orgasm.


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

I get what all you are saying - I don’t take it personally. However for me and I think most guys they want to feel desired. I don’t feel desired - now maybe some of that is my fault maybe not. But if you don’t feel it you don’t feel it. 


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

So what your all saying this is all my fault and doing. 


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Spartan01 said:


> So what your all saying this is all my fault and doing.


No.

You are both responsible.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Spartan01 said:


> So what your all saying this is all my fault and doing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think it is an issue of 'fault.'

Some people just don't click together. It's not that either is bad or not acting in good faith. 

Some people are just duds in bed and are not very sexual. 

And some people are sexually incompatible and marry for a myriad of other reasons and just don't do it for each other for whatever reason.

I have been with some people that I considered a sexual dud and I am sure they felt the same about me. But it's not like either of us was treating the other badly or negligently.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Spartan01 said:


> So what your all saying this is all my fault and doing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No. If you divorce her, you will likely find someone that loves having sex with you. Its not rocket science, its sex. She doesnt know what pushes her own buttons so how should you know?

My XW said I was a selfish lover, but when all you get is starfish sex, well what does one expect? Now my fiance and I have great sex and she doesnt think Im selfish at all.

Sometimes its about finding the right buttons to push with women and some women its damn near impossible to figure out those buttons. That may be your wife. 

As an aside, my X and I had nothing in common either but we didnt fight. We just got to a point where we didn't care. So, I get what you are saying. I just figured that was what marriage was and resigned myself to it for many years. Then she forced my hand. I recommended MC and she shut it down, so divorce was all that was left. Marriage shouldn't be like that. A better life awaits you.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

Spartan01, there are pushes and pulls in each marriage. And each sacrifices for the other. My wife does things for me that don't interest her much, and vice versa. In your case, all the sacrificing seems to have been on your part. And this had been going on for twenty years! I'd say it's about time to call it a day. Yet, I haven't read all the posts, so has anyone asked whether the's been cheating?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Spartan01 said:


> So what your all saying this is all my fault and doing.


Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying and what everyone else should say too. Everything you keep telling us is all about you. Everything you claim you did for your wife you really only did for yourself. You even have the nerve to resent that she doesn't initiate sex with you when you've told us you have never given her anything to enjoy. You say you want to be wanted and desired, but you have never given her anything to want, so what is there for her to desire? You clearly keep letting us know how selfish you are and have no concern that your wife is fed up with your selfishness. Your sex life is the monster you created completely on your own. I suggested a movie for you to see how bored out of her mind your wife is with you in bed. You said you watched it and then turned right around and complained again that she has made no advances to get you into the bedroom. I gave you some ways and techniques that you could do to please your wife, but all you keep saying is you don't want to. Yet, you want her to please you. Everything is all about you. 

You said your wife knows divorce is imminent. She's probably glad.


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

StarFires said:


> Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying and what everyone else should say too. Everything you keep telling us is all about you. Everything you claim you did for your wife you really only did for yourself. You even have the nerve to resent that she doesn't initiate sex with you when you've told us you have never given her anything to enjoy. You say you want to be wanted and desired, but you have never given her anything to want, so what is there for her to desire? You clearly keep letting us know how selfish you are and have no concern that your wife is fed up with your selfishness. Your sex life is the monster you created completely on your own. I suggested a movie for you to see how bored out of her mind your wife is with you in bed. You said you watched it and then turned right around and complained again that she has made no advances to get you into the bedroom. I gave you some ways and techniques that you could do to please your wife, but all you keep saying is you don't want to. Yet, you want her to please you. Everything is all about you.
> 
> You said your wife knows divorce is imminent. She's probably glad.


You must have shoulders of steel, holding all those massive chips on it.

Try some objectivity for a change, your bias is leaking all over the place.

Cut the guy some slack, he is going through a **** situation that whilst he probably does have some accountability for it, doesn't need the likes of your opinion/orders cutting him down.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Luminous said:


> You must have shoulders of steel, holding all those massive chips on it.
> 
> Try some objectivity for a change, your bias is leaking all over the place.
> 
> Cut the guy some slack, he is going through a **** situation that whilst he probably does have some accountability for it, doesn't need the likes of your opinion/orders cutting him down.


I didn't cut him down. He cut himself down. The bias chip is clearly on your shoulder, not mine. You don't tell me I can't repeat to him what he keeps telling us. You don't tell me what I can and can't say and insult me to make yourself seem so right.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

StarFires said:


> Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying and what everyone else should say too. Everything you keep telling us is all about you. Everything you claim you did for your wife you really only did for yourself. You even have the nerve to resent that she doesn't initiate sex with you when you've told us you have never given her anything to enjoy. You say you want to be wanted and desired, but you have never given her anything to want, so what is there for her to desire? You clearly keep letting us know how selfish you are and have no concern that your wife is fed up with your selfishness. Your sex life is the monster you created completely on your own. I suggested a movie for you to see how bored out of her mind your wife is with you in bed. You said you watched it and then turned right around and complained again that she has made no advances to get you into the bedroom. I gave you some ways and techniques that you could do to please your wife, but all you keep saying is you don't want to. Yet, you want her to please you. Everything is all about you.
> 
> You said your wife knows divorce is imminent. She's probably glad.



I'm amazed how people jump to conclusions, one way or another...


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> I'm amazed how people jump to conclusions, one way or another...


And yet you did it. That is what is amazing.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

StarFires said:


> And yet you did it. That is what is amazing.


Maybe because my marriage is very similar in many respects? Have you been married for over 20 years? Do you have children? Are you in a sexless/loveless marriage? Do you have a wife or a husband who don't love you and vice versa? What is your experience? Please tell me.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Man, I wish I was a woman, because according to Starfire, everything is society or a man's fault. That must be a pretty sweet place to live.

"Oh, I shut my man down completely when it comes to sex and refuse to talk about it or see a counselor" - Man's fault.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I am trying to get this. No sex follows bad gifted sex. You want to be desired. I don't see how anyone can fault you for that. But I don't really get how you see red hot desire springing out of a relationship within which you don't love her, and never have. 

The thing is, wanting what you want is not wrong by any means. But if you are going to get it within this marriage, it seems you need to go back to the beginning and make a marriage. Ya know? Not easy. Maybe not even possible.

One thing that I have heard has been helpful for some people whose spouses were resistant to counseling was to set up a marriage counseling session for themselves and *invite* their partner to join. Many partners will join to prevent what they view as dumping on them. At least they are in the door.

Good luck.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I think his statement that he might not have ever loved her might be more of a rewriting of the marriage, similar to what people having affairs do. He has a lot of resentment and that can tend to color the past.

Of course none of us really know what is going on, except Starfire.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I need to apologize to Starfire, apparently it isn't just always a man's fault, it is the fault of anyone that hasn't done enough "Soul searching". I guess you need to prove to her that you have tried and at somepoint if your soul searching hasnt change the dynamic she will approve your divorce.

What ended your first marriage starfire and at what point did you search your soul and now have great sex? You don't really talk about any specifics in how you accomplished that, just blast other people for not doing it.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Spartan01 said:


> I don’t hate my wife. I think she is a nice person and in many ways has helped me become the person I am today. This however isn’t just a sexual issue - she isn’t my best friend, she doesn’t make me laugh, and we have absolutely nothing in common. If she were posting she would tell you the same thing - my only resentful feelings I have towards her is that I have tried to change, I’ve tried to recommend counseling, I’ve tried to explain the importance of all this in a marriage and she doesn’t reciprocate. Thru the years as with most people kids did come into it and yes I’ve thought about the lie i am teaching them. That they are learning this behavior and will probably bring it into their lives. They have seen me sleeping on the couch for the last year - and NO she hasn’t asked me to come sleep with her in bed. And there you have it. So how would you all feel if that were the case?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


YOU chose to sleep on the couch, not her. Why should she ask you to come sleep In the bed when you are acting like a kid throwing a tantrum? Seriously! This does not mean I am negating your turmoil, I just don’t think that’s a good strategy. IMO, you should sit down show your cards and ask for a divorce.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Spartan01 said:


> So what your all saying this is all my fault and doing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not at all, but it’s not all your wife’s either which you seem to allude to. You don’t take much responsibility for your part and the not loving her.
BTW, have you ever cheated on her?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

aine said:


> Not at all, but it’s not all your wife’s either which you seem to allude to. You don’t take much responsibility for your part and the not loving her.
> BTW, have you ever cheated on her?


The truth is often in the middle...


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Spartan01 said:


> She says I am handsome and is attracted to me. I however have lost the attraction to her. Not sure I love her anymore. She doesn’t make me laugh, she’s not my best friend, and finally we have nothing in common.


Just like it should be no surprise that a sexless marriage leads to divorce, it should also be no surprise that being emotionally distant leads to a sexless relationship. If you have any desire to restore sexual intimacy to your relationship, you must first work at re-establishing emotional intimacy. This lack of emotional connection is the core of the problem in your relationship. The lack of sex is a symptom. Often men try to tackle the sex issue and force a solution, but the real fix is to work on regaining an emotional connection.

Men often discount the importance of emotional intimacy in the relationship, but that's because it's not important to them. However, it is often of primary importance to women--similar to how important sex is to men. Often if the woman doesn't feel emotionally connected, then sexual feelings won't develop no matter how much she tries. A man is typically not like this. A man can often enjoy sex just for the pleasurable feelings even if he has no emotional connection to his partner. 

If you can improve the emotional connection, you will likely experience better sex. She might not get to the point where she desires sex like you do, but she will likely enjoy it more if she feels closer to you. So rather than it being a chore, she may enjoy it because she knows it makes you happy. But right now you're filled with anger and resentment, so rebuilding the emotional connection may be quite difficult if you can't put those feelings aside.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

wilson said:


> so rebuilding the emotional connection may be quite difficult if you can't put those feelings aside.


How do you do that, given the situation and the years of unfulfilling marriage?


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## bikermehound (Mar 24, 2017)

hi let me know what the lawyer said ,i am interested on option he comes up with 

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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> How do you do that, given the situation and the years of unfulfilling marriage?


Obviously, that's the million-dollar question. Humans are typically very bad at putting aside deep-seated resentment. Grudges can take on a life of their own. In my own situation, it was because I had committed to stay in the marriage for the time being because one of my young daughters was very emotionally challenging and I worried a divorce would send her into the deep end. I had set my exit point years in the future when she was out of school, so I had a lot of time to try different things. Eventually, I got tired of feeling so resentful and those negative feelings subsided. Once I decided to try to rebuild those "best-friends" feelings, things got a lot better. That was my "ah-ha" moment when I realized the lack of sex in my relationship came from the gradual emotional disconnect.

The fact that the OP has kids is just about the only reason I think he should try to see if he can improve things. If the lack of sex is the core reason he is so resentful and unhappy in the relationship, then improving the emotional relationship may improve the sexual relationship and eventually the overall happiness in the relationship. But if there are lots of other things he doesn't like about his wife, then it's probably not worth it.


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## Spartan01 (Nov 24, 2018)

Thanks all for posting - I think this horse is dead. LOL. I do recognize that this not all my wife’s doing but it does take two. And that’s all I have to say about that. 
Thanks again. 


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Spartan01 said:


> I don’t hate my wife. I think she is a nice person and in many ways has helped me become the person I am today. This however isn’t just a sexual issue - she isn’t my best friend, she doesn’t make me laugh, and we have absolutely nothing in common. If she were posting she would tell you the same thing - my only resentful feelings I have towards her is that I have tried to change, I’ve tried to recommend counseling, I’ve tried to explain the importance of all this in a marriage and she doesn’t reciprocate. Thru the years as with most people kids did come into it and yes I’ve thought about the lie i am teaching them. That they are learning this behavior and will probably bring it into their lives. *They have seen me sleeping on the couch for the last year - and NO she hasn’t asked me to come sleep with her in bed. And there you have it. So how would you all feel if that were the case?*


So you totally rejected your wife by sleeping on the couch for an entire year, yet you complain that she hasn't asked you to come back to bed. She feels rejected and dejected like anyone else would feel. But you came here complaining that you haven't had sex for 14 months. 

But this whole thing is her fault and all about you as usual.

You said the last time you and she had sex, you stopped in the middle of it. From what you have told us, that was the point you decided to reject her even though she was giving you sex.

But this whole thing is her fault and all about you as usual.

Then you confirm and solidify your rejection of her when she attempted to kiss you on New Years by turning away from her advances and attempt to show affection. There's no telling how many other times she has tried that you didn't tell us about.

But this whole thing is her fault and all about you as usual.

I knew there was something wrong with this picture, so I asked you to state specifically for us what the problem is, you took that opportunity to again blame your wife and said she is the disinterested party. But that statement is false based on everything else you have stated.

You never said your wife refused to have sex with you. You did that.

You never told us your wife rejected you. You rejected her.

All you have done throughout this whole thread is tell us the different ways you have rejected your wife, that you expect her to undo your rejection but rejected her attempts, that you have been a boring and selfish lover but blamed her for never having an orgasm, that you are not interested in having sex with her but blamed her and said she's the one who is not interested, that she has tried to be a good wife but that doesn't matter because you decided to never have sex with her again unless she begs you, that it's been 14 months with no sex even though you rejected her and left out of the bedroom for the past year, that she's not your best friend and doesn't make you laugh. But you have not been a best friend to her and don't make her laugh either. If you did, the two of you would be best friends. The two of you would be laughing together. Your wife is not responsible for everything all by herself. You claim you know it takes two, but you offer nothing and blame her for all of it.

You have used this board to gain sympathy and empathy for your own actions that you made it seem like your wife was the one doing.


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## bikermehound (Mar 24, 2017)

so what would happened if you just went to bed upstairs in the big bed ,what would happen

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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

bikermehound said:


> so what would happened if you just went to bed upstairs in the big bed ,what would happen
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


Reasonable question, Hard to say what would actually happen. We only know the opinion of one player. I suspect that if the Spartan were to leave his lonely watch couch and return to the marital bed, and that if the lady in (much) waiting were to greet him with open arms and physical affection, a replay of new years eve would likely occur at least in the heart and mind of the Spartan. Until that heart and that mind are also open and also affectionate there is no point in reconciliation. IMO


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

What did the attorney say? Maybe I missed it?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Personal said:


> Presuming you haven't been cheating on your wife, with another or others?





aine said:


> BTW, have you ever cheated on her?


 @Spartan01 are you going answer that question?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

StarFires said:


> You rejected her.
> 
> All you have done throughout this whole thread is tell us the different ways you have rejected your wife, that you expect her to undo your rejection but rejected her attempts, that you have been a boring and selfish lover but blamed her for never having an orgasm, that you are not interested in having sex with her but blamed her and said she's the one who is not interested, that she has tried to be a good wife but that doesn't matter because you decided to never have sex with her again unless she begs you, that it's been 14 months with no sex even though you rejected her and left out of the bedroom for the past year, that she's not your best friend and doesn't make you laugh. But you have not been a best friend to her and don't make her laugh either. If you did, the two of you would be best friends. The two of you would be laughing together. Your wife is not responsible for everything all by herself. You claim you know it takes two, but you offer nothing and blame her for all of it.


Yep. :iagree:


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Tasorundo said:


> I need to apologize to Starfire, apparently it isn't just always a man's fault, it is the fault of anyone that hasn't done enough "Soul searching". I guess you need to prove to her that you have tried and at somepoint if your soul searching hasnt change the dynamic she will approve your divorce.
> 
> What ended your first marriage starfire and at what point did you search your soul and now have great sex? You don't really talk about any specifics in how you accomplished that, just blast other people for not doing it.


I would have been happy to answer your question if you wanted to know the answer, but I don't respond to smarta-- and challenging interrogations like this. Ask as if you would like me to answer. Don't ask me as if you demand I better answer or have to qualify my statement on an entirely different thread that was stated for entirely different reasons. You clearly are not genuinely curious to know, so I clearly will ignore the question.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

That's why I asked about the attorney. She needs delivered from this mess, as much as he needs to free himself and her. At this point, cheating doesn't matter as much as getting her some peace and comfort. She must be deeply hurt.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Spartan01 said:


> Yes - not her thing. Doesn’t enjoy it, has never had orgasm, has never masturbated. I don’t want it from her anymore and used to be sexually attracted to her. Just can’t get myself to have sex just to get my rocks off. I can do that myself.
> 
> The last time we did it I stopped in the middle of it because I realized I was fighting the impossible. Just couldn’t do it - I was done trying to make something out of nothing. No more gas left in the tank.
> 
> ...


*She doesn’t make me a confident man nor does she make me feel loved.*

You are married to a woman who has never had an orgasm and your main concern is the above?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> *She doesn’t make me a confident man nor does she make me feel loved.*
> 
> You are married to a woman who has never had an orgasm and your main concern is the above?


No Happiness27. According to most of the guys here, you are completely wrong to make such an awful "assumption" about this man. Surely they will be back to berate you and tell you how wrong you are like they so adamantly and sarcastically did to me because, you know, it's all her fault that she didn't enjoy having sex with him. I refused to back down from their crap and his.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

StarFires said:


> happiness27 said:
> 
> 
> > *She doesn’t make me a confident man nor does she make me feel loved.*
> ...


Nah, you just have an axe to grind. His wife already gave up on the marriage, probably a long time ago. If she had the slightest interest in it, she'd atleast humor the idea of MC, even if its a last ditch hellmary. 

But to you, he's just a selfish lover, because apparently you have been peeking in their bedroom windows for the past decade. Nevermind she doesnt even know how to please herself.

She really has nothing to offer him.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

OP said his wife tried to kiss him on NYE and he gave her the brush off. She asked him about it the next day and again he verbally pushed her away.

It sounds like she is trying, and he is pushing her away.

The fact that you say you never loved her, after being married for 20 years says a lot about you. Who marries someone they don't love, then goes on to have a sexless unfulfilling 20 years with them? I believe you did love her, and that sex wasn't as bad as you say it was, because by your own admission you have children which required sex to make.

Everything leads me to wonder if you have had an affair or affairs, or if you are currently in one. Your story sounds like a classic case of rewriting history which people do when they are in an affair.

Can you answer our questions about whether you have had or are currently having an affair?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Oh wow, so funny and perfect timing. I'm watching a movie on Amazon "The Private Life of Samuel Pepys" where, in the throes of an adulterous tryst, his AP orgasms, compliments of a new trick she taught him. But he's clueless and alarmed and asks "What was that?! What is wrong with you?! She tells him she climaxed, and he asks "Does that mean you're pregnant?. She laughs hysterically and tells him, "I see your wife goes away from the bed empty handed." AAAHAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHAAAAA. She then suggests he use his new trick on his wife.



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Nah, you just have an axe to grind. His wife already gave up on the marriage, probably a long time ago. If she had the slightest interest in it, she'd atleast humor the idea of MC, even if its a last ditch hellmary.
> 
> But to you, he's just a selfish lover, because apparently you have been peeking in their bedroom windows for the past decade. Nevermind she doesnt even know how to please herself.
> 
> She really has nothing to offer him.


It's really sad there are so many neglected women like Spartan's wife because there are so many guys like him and you.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I believe Spartan has left the thread. There is a catholic dynamic at play here that some are missing. In order for a catholic believer to justify a divorce he/she heeds to believe that the marriage was never real to start with. Then it can be annulled. Of course if there was never love the marriage was a sham from the start. This little self deception bridges the gap between the reality of the relationship and the ecclesiastical requirements. The year of imposed separation is similar. It makes it easier to say that I tried everything. More a fig leaf than a true defense. 

The point is that the horse is dead. There is no love in the union. Everything else is just accounting.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> I believe Spartan has left the thread. There is a catholic dynamic at play here that some are missing. In order for a catholic believer to justify a divorce he/she heeds to believe that the marriage was never real to start with. Then it can be annulled. Of course if there was never love the marriage was a sham from the start. This little self deception bridges the gap between the reality of the relationship and the ecclesiastical requirements. *The year of imposed separation is similar. * It makes it easier to say that I tried everything. More a fig leaf than a true defense.
> 
> The point is that the horse is dead. There is no love in the union. Everything else is just accounting.


Not too sure about that one. As far as I know, it has to be something that caused the vows to be invalid. That would take someone lying about something, bigamy, if they are cousins or something, fraud, force, under age of consent, etc. No sex? Too bad buckaroo. lol

Edit: Unless you are talking about civil divorce. In which case, 12 months consecutively with no sex, or sex 10 times in a twelve month period, in other words, less than once a month, and a divorce can be granted.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

2ntnuf said:


> Not too sure about that one. As far as I know, it has to be something that caused the vows to be invalid. That would take someone lying about something, bigamy, if they are cousins or something, fraud, force, under age of consent, etc. No sex? Too bad buckaroo. lol


Yes, it has to be something that can be qualified. "I never loved her" is lame and can't be proven.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

StarFires said:


> Yes, it has to be something that can be qualified. "I never loved her" is lame and can't be proven.


I, personally, don't like the trickery. It's lame. I know it's legal to ask for a divorce after a time without sex, in civil court. It's just... cowardly. It's very hurtful, too, for the one who is presented with the papers. I feel badly for her.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

2ntnuf said:


> StarFires said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, it has to be something that can be qualified. "I never loved her" is lame and can't be proven.
> ...


Where I live, its legal to ask for a divorce if your spouse doesn't eat green beans and that irritates you. Irreconcilable differences thay call it. Where do you live?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

2ntnuf said:


> I, personally, don't like the trickery. It's lame. I know it's legal to ask for a divorce after a time without sex, in civil court. It's just... cowardly. It's very hurtful, too, for the one who is presented with the papers. I feel badly for her.


I'm a little confused because you don't really have to have a reason to divorce, not here in the States, but I don't know where you are. "Irreconcilable Differences" is as little a reason one needs and doesn't require details or explanation of what it means.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Not too sure about that one. As far as I know, it has to be something that caused the vows to be invalid. That would take someone lying about something, bigamy, if they are cousins or something, fraud, force, under age of consent, etc. No sex? Too bad buckaroo. lol
> 
> Edit: Unless you are talking about civil divorce. In which case, 12 months consecutively with no sex, or sex 10 times in a twelve month period, in other words, less than once a month, and a divorce can be granted.


In some states...


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Where I live, its legal to ask for a divorce if your spouse doesn't eat green beans and that irritates you. Irreconcilable differences thay call it. Where do you live?


Please start trying very hard to get with the program and understand what you read. You needn't have quoted my post because I wasn't responding to the subject of divorce. I was responding to the subject of Catholic annulment, which does not consider "irreconcilable differences" as reason for consideration.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

john117 said:


> 2ntnuf said:
> 
> 
> > Not too sure about that one. As far as I know, it has to be something that caused the vows to be invalid. That would take someone lying about something, bigamy, if they are cousins or something, fraud, force, under age of consent, etc. No sex? Too bad buckaroo. lol
> ...


They call it 'desertion' in some states.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

StarFires said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Where I live, its legal to ask for a divorce if your spouse doesn't eat green beans and that irritates you. Irreconcilable differences thay call it. Where do you live?
> ...


How do I make you go away?


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> How do I make you go away?


You read something I wrote and then accused me of something so far fetched that it was obvious you either didn't understand it or you have a chip on your shoulder. You didn't have to talk to me condescendingly however you please, but I say you didn't understand something I wrote again and your feelings get out of whack. Leave me alone because I did not bother you. If you didn't think you could speak to me just any kind of way you would never have heard about it from me. I wouldn't have any reason to address you at all.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Get over youself. I was talking to 2ntnuf, not you, your post just tagged along. I have no interest in you.


Again, please start trying very hard to get with the program because nobody is falling for that. You were telling yourself "How do I make you go away?" and my post magically tagged along with your own? uh huh


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Where I live, its legal to ask for a divorce if your spouse doesn't eat green beans and that irritates you. Irreconcilable differences thay call it. Where do you live?


If I was up your ass you'd know.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

wilson said:


> Obviously, that's the million-dollar question. Humans are typically very bad at putting aside deep-seated resentment. Grudges can take on a life of their own. In my own situation, it was because I had committed to stay in the marriage for the time being because one of my young daughters was very emotionally challenging and I worried a divorce would send her into the deep end. I had set my exit point years in the future when she was out of school, so I had a lot of time to try different things. Eventually, I got tired of feeling so resentful and those negative feelings subsided. Once I decided to try to rebuild those "best-friends" feelings, things got a lot better. That was my "ah-ha" moment when I realized the lack of sex in my relationship came from the gradual emotional disconnect.
> 
> The fact that the OP has kids is just about the only reason I think he should try to see if he can improve things. If the lack of sex is the core reason he is so resentful and unhappy in the relationship, then improving the emotional relationship may improve the sexual relationship and eventually the overall happiness in the relationship. But if there are lots of other things he doesn't like about his wife, then it's probably not worth it.


In my experience, when the connection is lost for many many months, it's almost impossible to "re-ignite" it. It becomes awkward and your defence mechanism kicks in. I have tried. But I think my wife is suspicious and she is not "letting me in". Not sure we will get over our resentment. For me, the reason was the lack of sex and the connection. I dealt with it the wrong way, for lack of knowledge and lack of information. Difficult to get it right when you don't know what's going on. Seems to me that the OP has stopped trying and can't get over his lack of affection now.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Star, I don't really care, but if you want to contribute and help people, you should try not coming across as such an overbearing *****y blame monster. In both threads I have seen you in, you just blast the OP as being completely at fault for everything and not working hard or 'soul searching' enough. You don't actually tell them what to do, or how to do it, just that they didn't do whatever it is, and they are completely to blame.

No one thinks Spartan is guilt free, but he is certainly not the 100% owner of this marriage failure. 20 years is a long time for lots of things to warp how the past is viewed. I am sure they both loved each other at one point, but time and hurt has erased that.

Hey Spartan, go watch a movie about BDSM and domination, then go bang your prude of a wife that has no interest in sex. Surely mind games, sexual manipulation and dominance will turn the corner!


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Tasorundo said:


> Star, I don't really care, but if you want to contribute and help people, you should try not coming across as such an overbearing *****y blame monster. In both threads I have seen you in, you just blast the OP as being completely at fault for everything and not working hard or 'soul searching' enough. You don't actually tell them what to do, or how to do it, just that they didn't do whatever it is, and they are completely to blame.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




QFT!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Tasorundo said:


> Star, I don't really care, but if you want to contribute and help people, you should try not coming across as such an overbearing *****y blame monster. In both threads I have seen you in, you just blast the OP as being completely at fault for everything and not working hard or 'soul searching' enough. You don't actually tell them what to do, or how to do it, just that they didn't do whatever it is, and they are completely to blame.


You are completely wrong. I told Spartan exactly what to do.... several things to do, in fact, and in graphic detail. You obviously missed that, but that's what your problem is. As for the other thread you are talking about, I was referring to the OP saying "soul searching" but you obviously missed that too. You selectively miss everything that is relevant, which is why your comments are irrelevant. I said I thought she had made a mistake and was the victim of a predator at a vulnerable time and hope she wouldn't pay too dearly for it. But clearly you don't feel I should do as you do and express my opinion. Next time you "don't really care," I'd appreciate you meaning what you say.



Tasorundo said:


> No one thinks Spartan is guilt free, but he is certainly not the 100% owner of this marriage failure. 20 years is a long time for lots of things to warp how the past is viewed. I am sure they both loved each other at one point, but time and hurt has erased that.


I never once said or suggested Spartan is 100% owner of the failure of his marriage, In fact, I said the total opposite by submitting that neither of them learned so they couldn't help each other, and also told him it isn't possible for one person to be responsible for the success or failure of the marriage. Again, you missed it. You didn't catch much of anything because you are the one too busy being "such an overbearing *****y blame monster." The only thing I faulted Spartan for was making his wife the total blame for everything, as he did on every page of this thread, and for making matters worse while blaming her for that too.

Since you miss half of what you read and can't understand the rest and clearly have an agenda regarding me, I, again, will appreciate you not really caring like you said and keeping your comments about me to yourself, or don't say you "don't really care" since you can't help yourself but to care with your erroneous opinions about my posts.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

StarFires said:


> I never once said or suggested Spartan is 100% owner of the failure of his marriage, In fact, I said the total opposite


You might want to re-read comment #99... doesn't get any clearer than that... you are blaming Spartan, 100% in this...


Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan01
So what your all saying this is all my fault and doing.

StarFires
Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying and what everyone else should say too.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Mr. Nail said:


> I believe Spartan has left the thread. There is a catholic dynamic at play here that some are missing. In order for a catholic believer to justify a divorce he/she heeds to believe that the marriage was never real to start with. Then it can be annulled. Of course if there was never love the marriage was a sham from the start. This little self deception bridges the gap between the reality of the relationship and the ecclesiastical requirements. The year of imposed separation is similar. It makes it easier to say that I tried everything. More a fig leaf than a true defense.
> 
> The point is that the horse is dead. There is no love in the union. Everything else is just accounting.


 The required "goods of marriage" are:
*Permanence (the understanding that marriage is a permanent institution, life long, and cannot be dissolved by divorce) 
*Fidelity (the understanding that marriage is a monogamous institution) 
*Fruitfulness (the understanding that marriage is designed for the creation and rearing of the next generation of souls) and 
*Partnership (the understanding that marriage is two individuals working toward common goals for the good of themselves and each other)

Love at the time of marriage is not and never has been a requirement for a valid Catholic marriage.



2ntnuf said:


> Not too sure about that one. As far as I know, it has to be something that caused the vows to be invalid. That would take someone lying about something, bigamy, if they are cousins or something, fraud, force, under age of consent, etc. No sex? Too bad buckaroo. lol
> 
> Edit: Unless you are talking about civil divorce. In which case, 12 months consecutively with no sex, or sex 10 times in a twelve month period, in other words, less than once a month, and a divorce can be granted.


There are actually many grounds for a Church Decree of Nullity. For example, and an easy one at that, imperfect consent. You cannot consent to marriage if you do not understand what you are consenting to. Those who believe that divorce dissolves a marriage, for example, cannot consent to a Catholic marriage because Catholics do not believe divorce can dissolve a marriage. So, if one or both spouses speak their vows believing divorce can dissolve marriage, they did not consent to marriage and can file for a Decree of Nullity with a fairly decent chance of the Tribunal agreeing the marriage wasn't valid. Another thing that can impact consent is mental ability. If a spouse had an untreated mental health condition (bi-polar and Schizophrenia come to mind) or was under the influence of mind altering substances at the time of marriage they also could seek Annulment due to imperfect consent.

Unfortunately, the many possible grounds do not include sexlessness unless the sexlessness prevented the marriage from consummation.

The Church allows for divorce is there is a serious reason to sever the legal relationship with a spouse. That said, a divorced Catholic is expected to stay chaste unless/until their marriage is investigated by a Tribunal and found null. If the Tribunal rules the marriage was valid the Catholic is expected to either reconcile or remain chaste until their former spouse dies or they do.

Civil divorce without religious belief is much easier, at least in the US. All 50 states allow for no fault filings, so a reason like sexless needn't ever be listed. Just gets filed under the catch all "irreconcilable differences".


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Yeah, you blamed him, you said he needed to be the master of his wife's sexual awakening. Well, bull****, his wife needs to own her sexual awakening.

You have no idea the quality of lover he is, what he has tried, or what she has shot down. Yet, you come in here and YOU DO BLAME HIM COMPLETELY MULTIPLE TIMES.

How is it everyone other commenter in here can see it, and you deny that you are doing it?

It is not the man's job to teach his wife how to orgasm. They can work on it together, but she isn't working and he has said multiple times that she does not talk about it, won't seek counseling, and isn't going to work on it.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> You might want to re-read comment #99... doesn't get any clearer than that... you are blaming Spartan, 100% in this...
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...


Absentia, why did you conveniently ignore all my responses before that one trying to help him, telling him it wasn't either of their fault, and that he could still try to salvage his marriage, and you ignored all of Spartan's prior responses telling us that he refused to try, he never loved her, everything his wife should do for him, and he's not interested, and all that. By then, he made it clear his marriage was over and he wasn't interested in making any attempt to save it, so yes that was his fault and I told him so. I also told him he has been selfish and inconsiderate, and told him his wife was fed up with his selfishness and his sex life was the monster he created. That was all in context of his selfishness and refusal to make any effort to fix it. I had already told him several times in several different ways that it wasn't his fault or hers. But you ignored all of that and took my contextual comments to make them appear universal.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

StarFires said:


> So you totally rejected your wife by sleeping on the couch for an entire year, yet you complain that she hasn't asked you to come back to bed. She feels rejected and dejected like anyone else would feel. But you came here complaining that you haven't had sex for 14 months.
> 
> But this whole thing is her fault and all about you as usual.
> 
> ...


Could not agree more with this post. Actually Spartan, do your wife a favour, divorce her so she can move on and get a man who will love her, not reject her and have some emotional intimacy with her. Maybe you’ll get lucky, but if you take the same behaviour and negativity to another relationship I guarantee you’ll be back at square one again.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

StarFires said:


> Absentia, why did you conveniently ignore all my responses before that one trying to help him, telling him it wasn't either of their fault, and that he could still try to salvage his marriage, and you ignored all of Spartan's prior responses telling us that he refused to try, he never loved her, everything his wife should do for him, and he's not interested, and all that. By then, he made it clear his marriage was over and he wasn't interested in making any attempt to save it, so yes that was his fault and I told him so. I also told him he has been selfish and inconsiderate, and told him his wife was fed up with his selfishness and his sex life was the monster he created. That was all in context of his selfishness and refusal to make any effort to fix it. I had already told him several times in several different ways that it wasn't his fault or hers. But you ignored all of that and took my contextual comments to make them appear universal.


I'm confused... because then you are contracting yourself... I'm out... :smile2:


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

StarFires said:


> , it's all her fault that she didn't enjoy having sex with him.


I'm actually going to go with it is her fault she doesn't enjoy sex with him. 

If she's just not into him, if she's lacking physical/chemical attraction to him, then it's her fault for perpetuating a sexual relationship (marriage) with someone she does not find sexually attractive.

If it's because she is more or less asexual and/or just doesn't like sex then it's her fault for getting into and/or remaining in a relationship (marriage) that is sexual in nature.

If she knows why she doesn't want a healthy sexual relationship with her husband, it's her obligation to say something and attempt to fix the issue in some way, if a fix is possible.

If she doesn't know why she doesn't want a healthy sexual relationship with her husband, she surely knows that sex is important to marriage in general and her husband in particular, and is therefore obligated to seek professional help to investigate possible causes in order to find a solution, if a solution exists.

Failing to either leave or work on the problem so that they both can enjoy sex is absolutely her fault.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

aine said:


> Could not agree more with this post. Actually Spartan, do your wife a favour, divorce her so she can move on and get a man who will love her, not reject her and have some emotional intimacy with her. Maybe you’ll get lucky, but if you take the same behaviour and negativity to another relationship I guarantee you’ll be back at square one again.


Couldn't agree more with this. But listen Aine, you quoted me on something way back in the early pages of this thread and commented on my post, but I mistook your meaning at the time and was woefully mistaken. I really apologize for that. I think it was page 3 or 4 perhaps.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Spartan, what is the update?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

MJJEAN said:


> The required "goods of marriage" are:
> *Permanence (the understanding that marriage is a permanent institution, life long, and cannot be dissolved by divorce)
> *Fidelity (the understanding that marriage is a monogamous institution)
> *Fruitfulness (the understanding that marriage is designed for the creation and rearing of the next generation of souls) and
> ...


Thanks for the clarification, I agree he does not have grounds for nullification presented here. Just trying to feel better about a crappy situation.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Nevermind she doesnt even know how to please herself.


Unless Casanova has been attached to her hip surgically *every single day and night* for the last 20 years, then he doesn't know *squat* about what she really does when she's alone. In fact, it's likely she's probably had to resort to a whole LOT of masturbating since it sounds like he sucks in bed - and not in a good way.

Just sayin'...


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

aine said:


> An insightful post. Women are very different from men as you say and *humping, getting his rocks off is not going to do much for her to be sure. But it happens. **Men can be selfish lovers but if the wife is not begging for it, it's because she is frigid, not putting out whatever.* Sex is important in a marriage but so is mutual satisfaction. If it is all one sided, who is to blame?


We have no evidence that the OP has been as described.



She'sStillGotIt said:


> Unless Casanova has been attached to her hip surgically *every single day and night* for the last 20 years, then he doesn't know *squat* about what she really does when she's alone. In fact, it's likely she's probably had to resort to a whole LOT of masturbating since it sounds like he sucks in bed - and not in a good way.
> 
> Just sayin'...


It seems more plausible that she is pleasing herself and lying about it--Catholic girl thing.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Spartan01 said:


> I don’t hate my wife. I think she is a nice person and in many ways has helped me become the person I am today. This however isn’t just a sexual issue - she isn’t my best friend, she doesn’t make me laugh, and we have absolutely nothing in common. If she were posting she would tell you the same thing - my only resentful feelings I have towards her is that I have tried to change, I’ve tried to recommend counseling, I’ve tried to explain the importance of all this in a marriage and she doesn’t reciprocate. Thru the years as with most people kids did come into it and yes I’ve thought about the lie i am teaching them. That they are learning this behavior and will probably bring it into their lives. They have seen me sleeping on the couch for the last year - and NO she hasn’t asked me to come sleep with her in bed. And there you have it. So how would you all feel if that were the case?



It seems your wife may have some very unhealthy ideas about what marriage should entail. It also sounds like you may, as well, from your apparent belief that your wife not wanting you sexually is somehow unrelated to you not wanting her emotionally. You know what creates those sorts of warped ideas about marriage? Growing up in a home with two parents who don't love one another, aren't affectionate with one another, and are clearly sexually unhappy as well. It's possible, OP, that your wife learned what she knows about how marriage should work from growing up in a home that's very similar to the one you and she are now modeling for your own children. And I think that's very sad. 

You and your wife are both clearly unhappy. Your marriage is clearly unhappy. Worse, you are both modeling an unloving, unhappy, unhealthy, marriage for your children. Your marriage is what they will think of when they think of how things should be with their own future partners. That's not a good thing. Honestly, that's going to mess them up in future relationships just as much as - if not more than - an amicable divorce and good co-parenting will. Please free both yourself and your wife to find new partners who have at least a chance at modeling healthy, loving, marriages for your children.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rowan said:


> It seems your wife may have some very unhealthy ideas about what marriage should entail. It also sounds like you may, as well, from your apparent belief that your wife not wanting you sexually is somehow unrelated to you not wanting her emotionally. You know what creates those sorts of warped ideas about marriage? Growing up in a home with two parents who don't love one another, aren't affectionate with one another, and are clearly sexually unhappy as well. It's possible, OP, that your wife learned what she knows about how marriage should work from growing up in a home that's very similar to the one you and she are now modeling for your own children. And I think that's very sad.
> 
> You and your wife are both clearly unhappy. Your marriage is clearly unhappy. Worse, you are both modeling an unloving, unhappy, unhealthy, marriage for your children. Your marriage is what they will think of when they think of how things should be with their own future partners. That's not a good thing. Honestly, that's going to mess them up in future relationships just as much as - if not more than - an amicable divorce and good co-parenting will. Please free both yourself and your wife to find new partners who have at least a chance at modeling healthy, loving, marriages for your children.


In agreement with this. I don't blame him for anything, except the using the legal system, as he is allowed by law, to get a divorce that will possibly allow him to keep from helping a woman who was with him for years. I think it's ****ty. I know it's legal and he is allowed to do it. It just hurts her for no reason. Revenge is a hell of a thing. Usually, the one who deserves the punishment is not the one who receives it. I don't know who deserves what in this instance. I simply know 14 months of intentionally avoiding her and living like animals is not a good way to handle things... legal or not.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

2ntnuf said:


> In agreement with this. I don't blame him for anything, except the using the legal system, as he is allowed by law, to get a divorce that will possibly allow him to keep from helping a woman who was with him for years. I think it's ****ty. I know it's legal and he is allowed to do it. It just hurts her for no reason. Revenge is a hell of a thing. Usually, the one who deserves the punishment is not the one who receives it. I don't know who deserves what in this instance. I simply know 14 months of intentionally avoiding her and living like animals is not a good way to handle things... legal or not.


14 months of HER not addressing things is "****ty?"

His wife is an adult, she could have addressed this at any time and chooses not to.

I would not characterize this situation as living like animals.

It is sad, predictable, and will run its course as it should.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> You might want to re-read comment #99... doesn't get any clearer than that... you are blaming Spartan, 100% in this...
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...


If you go back and read post #99, She was referring to the SEX not the entire marriage. It is true that sometimes I think some men think sex IS the entire marriage...


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

I'm a woman and I watched part of that movie recommended on this thread to see what it was about. I couldn't finish it, because I felt like I was compromising my own self respect by watching it. Parts of it made me cringe inside. If my husband treated me like that I would absolutely HATE him.

Here is my take on it. That movie is SICK and no self respecting woman would spend one second in a relationship like that.

The protagonist had serious emotional issues and she had been in an assylum or hospital and continued self harming when she got out.

Her boss began to treat her disrespectfully and moved to physically harming her. Since he was hurting and humiliating her she no longer had to do it herself, and she felt comfortable and 'happy' in that situation.

OP don't treat your wife like that. She doesn't deserve it and she won't appreciate it, but she will think there is something wrong with YOU and she will be right. Any man who treats a woman like that is sick, and any woman who allows herself to be treated like that is also sick.

At least in the movie the two sick people found each other and didn't inflict their illnesses on healthy people!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> How do I make you go away?


*Moderator warning:-*

You can use the ignore feature.

But you can't be rude to other members.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

To the OP if you are still reading. I just finished reading both of your threads! I am not going to address the problems in your marriage, who is at fault, etc. because I strongly feel that's best left to professional counseling to help you work through. Instead I am going to address the need for you to work on yourself, and fix your issues regardless of the decision you make on your marriage.

After reading both threads - I got the feeling you came here - not really seeking advice - but instead, seeking validation on the conclusions you have already reached. In most sexless marriage threads I read - I feel the posters come here mostly to vent and complain and let off steam. Most are also hoping they will find a magic pill to fix their spouse quickly. Most still have some hope (even if its only a tiny bit) that things can change. I don't get that feeling from your threads. I think you have already concluded that there is no magic pill, you can't change your wife, and your wife is not even willing to consider trying to work on changing herself or your marriage. I don't feel any hope in your words.

I may be wrong - but I think you had already concluded what you wanted to do about your marriage before posting on TAM - yet fear was holding you back from taking action. In your first thread, I got the feeling that you feared the "unknown" future of leaving your marriage more than you feared staying in the "known" bad marriage. 

In this thread, it felt to me like you finally reached the point where you feared staying in the "known" bad marriage more that stepping into the "unknown". If that is a correct observation - I think you will finally be able to take actions that align with your conclusions. I also think that once you act - it will find it very liberating - still scary - but also very exciting in a way. The reason is - you will have hope again! Hope for a better future!

However - I do want to caution you. I hear a very real lack of confidence on your part coming through in both of your threads. I get it! 
I believe the one thing (probably the only thing) everyone reading your thread agrees on - is that your marriage has not been a healthy one and probably never was for the entire 20 years - for either you or your wife. I don't know how you were when you came into the marriage - but bad marriages (no matter why they are bad or who is at fault) are real confidence bombs for both spouses. So your lack of confidence is not surprising and is very normal. 

So my caution to you - if you end your marriage - don't jump into the dating game quickly. Instead my advice is for you is to take some time to work on yourself first. Get professional help to deal with your insecurities and other issues and work towards the goal of becoming a more confident, emotionally healthy man. Also work on learning the skills needed to build and maintain healthy relationships. I can guarentee after 20 years of an unhealthy marriage - you have developed many,many very unhealthy relationship thinking patterns and habits that will have to be changed. If you decide to divorce - do the work you need to do on you first - before bringing someone into your life. An emotionally healthy person that has good skills for building healthy relationships - is more likely to find and attract a partner that is the same. Unhealthy typically finds and attracts unhealthy! 

You say you have been working with a counselor already. Just make sure you have a good one - who is challenging you to do the work you need to do. One that is helping you make healthy changes in your thinking process and in your behavior.

If you make a decision to stay in the marriage - even if it is only until the youngest becomes an adult - my advice remains the same. Work with a professional on your issues - Fix you! Make a conscious decision to stay in the marriage with your eyes wide open to the reality that you are making a decision to be in a sexless marriage. Make a conscious choice to fully accept that reality. Work with the counselor to become a better man, a better father, and overall a better person - while also trying to be happy in your sexless marriage - for however long you remain in it. Make a conscious decision to stay in the marriage with no expectations for change on her part; do so accepting her as she is and committing to love her anyways (even if its only a brotherly love). Look for and concentrate on the good qualities she has. Treat her lovingly and respectful. Make a conscious effort to let go of resentments and move beyond them. Commit to make every effort to build a real and lasting friendship (forget best friend). Make it your goal to practice your new relationship building skills in an effort to improve your relationship with her and with your children. Easier said than done - I know! However setting goals and making efforts usually results in progression and progression is success in my book! Any successes in these areas will be giving your children a much better picture of a marriage than you have been giving them. It can also help with co-parenting and make co-existing more tolerable and perhaps even somewhat enjoyable.

Either decision you make - divorce or stay - working on yourself with a professional is essential because an emotionally healthier you will be a happier you - no matter what. And developing better relationship building skills will help you have better relationships - no matter who the relationship is with.

I wish you the best. Do the work needed on you and I believe you will have the best or - at the least better than what you have now!


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Araucaria said:


> I'm a woman and I watched part of that movie recommended on this thread to see what it was about. I couldn't finish it, because I felt like I was compromising my own self respect by watching it. Parts of it made me cringe inside. If my husband treated me like that I would absolutely HATE him.
> 
> Here is my take on it. That movie is SICK and no self respecting woman would spend one second in a relationship like that.
> 
> ...


Araucaria, I agree with you about the movie, but I didn't suggest it to imply that Spartan treated his wife like that. For the purpose of context along the lines of my previous explanations, I suggested it for him to see how a woman feels when with an inconsiderate lover. When two inexperienced people get together, both being clueless of her needs as in his and his wife's case, then neither party is to blame. Because sex is pleasurable for the man by virtue of the mechanics of the act itself, a lot of men don't know that it isn't necessarily pleasurable for the woman via those same mechanics. So I wanted him to get an idea of the ordeal by innocence that can give birth to a woman's eventual disinterest. It had nothing to do with the premise or basis of the movie, only that one scene.

To address your remarks about the movie though, it is on that basis that some women tolerate abuse. I don't think calling them sick accurately addresses their deep-seeded and deep-seated underlying problems in a meaningful way. I don't understand why women tolerate abuse and long ago concluded those words are all encompassing - I don't understand.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

StarFires said:


> I don't think calling them sick accurately addresses their deep-seeded and deep-seated underlying problems in a meaningful way.


I can't help it.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/deep-seated-deep-seeded-usage


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> I can't help it.
> 
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/deep-seated-deep-seeded-usage


You're an Aussie if I recall correctly?

Us Yanks are definitely sloppy with the mother tongue relative to the rest of the English speaking world.

Most on this side of the pond are still struggling with conscious vs. conscience and have flat given up on trying to properly use affect vs. effect.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I can't help it.
> 
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/deep-seated-deep-seeded-usage


NobodySpecial, good lawd, girl, you are worse than I am. I always want to correct people but I don't want to be called the grammar police or the like. LOL

But I deliberately used both terms for the same condition to denote different aspects regarding the condition:

Deep-seeded to mean rooted by circumstances implanted long ago and allowed to grow and fester into traits and characteristics that express themselves in unhealthy ways.

Deep-seated to mean firmly in place and, unless addressed and dealt with, will always be a factor in forming self image and a motivating factor in deeds and actions.

The two work in concert to create a debilitating condition, debilitating because a person thinks of themselves as not being whole or worthy and set out to satisfy and confirm that unhealthy self image. Araucaria called it "sick" but I think it's much more than that psychologically.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

StarFires said:


> NobodySpecial, good lawd, girl, you are worse than I am.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

michzz said:


> 14 months of HER not addressing things is "****ty?"
> 
> His wife is an adult, she could have addressed this at any time and chooses not to.
> 
> ...


His wife isn't here, mich. You don't know her. Don't act like you do. 

What is ****ty is lying on the couch for 14 months like a ***** and then slamming her with divorce papers. We know he did that. He told us.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> If you go back and read post #99, She was referring to the SEX not the entire marriage. It is true that sometimes I think some men think sex IS the entire marriage...


It is... :laugh: I still think StarFires posts have been highly confusing... but there you go... I won't comment on this particular instance any more.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> It is... :laugh:


LOL


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

2ntnuf said:


> His wife isn't here, mich. You don't know her. Don't act like you do.
> 
> What is ****ty is lying on the couch for 14 months like a ***** and then slamming her with divorce papers. We know he did that. He told us.


That is not what I read.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

2ntnuf said:


> His wife isn't here, mich. You don't know her. Don't act like you do.
> 
> What is ****ty is lying on the couch for 14 months like a ***** and then slamming her with divorce papers. We know he did that. He told us.


I don't know if anyone here has said that OP and the wife, by the description we have received, are not both at fault for letting things get this way. 

If they are, then I am missing it. 

However, at a base level, it just does not seem like OP and his wife are in any way sexually compatible. 

Add that to the complete lack of communication and conflict avoidance on both their parts... Does anyone think long term that it is a bad idea for them split way now instead of wasting more years in a bad marriage with no sex???


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> You're an Aussie if I recall correctly?


Nope. US. 



> Us Yanks are definitely sloppy with the mother tongue relative to the rest of the English speaking world.
> 
> Most on this side of the pond are still struggling with conscious vs. conscience and have flat given up on trying to properly use affect vs. effect.


Affect and effect makes some sense to me as genuinely potentially confusing. But I won't lie. I am not a fan of how people use words incorrectly, then get annoyed when the person doesn't understand what that word "means to them". I have given up on the empathy threads since almost everyone is talking about sympathy... Those things are not even close to the same. What is the point of the discussion?


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

StarFires said:


> To address your remarks about the movie though, it is on that basis that some women tolerate abuse. I don't think calling them sick accurately addresses their deep-seeded and deep-seated underlying problems in a *meaningful way*. I don't understand why women tolerate abuse and long ago concluded those words are all encompassing - I don't understand.


Even the reviewer in the Guardian called them and their love 'sick'. (see last paragraph) According to the review she has a mental illness and dismally low self esteem. He too is mentally ill and it translates into his sexual practices. She needs to be emotionally and physically abused and he needs to abuse. There is no 'meaningful way' to describe their mental illnesses.

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2003/may/16/artsfeatures

Hopefully OP realizes that not everyone on TAM thinks the suggested movie is a good teacher of healthy love and sex, and that the poster who suggested it is among the minority who hold that opinion.

Humiliation and violence have no place in a loving relationship IMO. OP, you will be better off reading Willard Harley's books with your wife:

His Needs Her Needs

and 

Love Busters

Those two books have improved countless marriages.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I don't know if anyone here has said that OP and the wife, by the description we have received, are not both at fault for letting things get this way.
> 
> If they are, then I am missing it.
> 
> ...


Oh, hell no, they should not stay together. My first post asked what the attorney said. I got no answers. My second was to say that I believed they needed to split asap. 

Don't know what to tell you, if you didn't see them. That isn't the issue. Never was.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

2ntnuf said:


> Oh, hell no, they should not stay together. My first post asked what the attorney said. I got no answers. My second was to say that I believed they needed to split asap.
> 
> Don't know what to tell you, if you didn't see them. That isn't the issue. Never was.


I am just putting the question out there, I think most people think they should split. 

I did see a lot of blame on OP, about the situation. But for me I am not seeing any real hope here in any case, unless they both want to be miserable...


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Araucaria said:


> Even the reviewer in the Guardian called them and their love 'sick'. (see last paragraph) According to the review she has a mental illness and dismally low self esteem. He too is mentally ill and it translates into his sexual practices. She needs to be emotionally and physically abused and he needs to abuse. There is no 'meaningful way' to describe their mental illnesses.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2003/may/16/artsfeatures
> 
> ...


There is nothing to regard about some article written in the The Guardian of all places by someone who, like yourself, has zero learned knowledge of mental illness or clinical terminology when referring to it. For your edification, "meaningful way" refers to being conducive to understanding.

That kind of silliness appears to be the only thing you can understand since, if you understood anything I said to him about that movie and anything I said to you about the movie, you wouldn't keep posting nonsense.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

StarFires said:


> There is nothing to regard about some article written in the The Guardian of all places by someone who, like yourself, has zero learned *knowledge of mental illness or clinical terminology when referring to it*. For your edification, "meaningful way" refers to being conducive to understanding.
> 
> That kind of silliness appears to be the only thing you can understand since, if you understood anything I said to him about that movie and anything I said to you about the movie, you wouldn't keep posting nonsense.


You recommended to the OP, as a teaching tool, a movie about a woman who gets off by being abused and humiliated, as an example of how women in general feel when they are with an abusive man versus being with a healthy but sexually inept man. By your own admission above, she has a mental illness which needs clinical terminology to describe, and you simply you don't like my choice of the word "sick."

Sick is a euphamism that covers a plethora of clinical conditions as well as other less clinical conditions, like run down, cruel, mean, messed up in the head, fed up, etc. Take the usage of the phrase, 'sick and tired' as an example of how broad the meaning of sick is. I will continue to use the word. You're welcome to use the 'ignore' function if my posts upset you because you don't like my usage of the English language.

You suggested the movie as your example of how the average woman feels when she is with an inept lover, going so far as to say and insinuate in various posts that the OP is an inept lover. You eluded that the protagonist and her sick lover were more knowledgable and skilled sexually, and that the OP should learn from the abusive male protagonist.

In the movie, the female protagonist tried to get her healthy boyfriend to hit her, and he didn't catch on. Because he wouldn't hit her, she was not able to become aroused. According to you, since she didn't become aroused, he is an inept lover. 

It wouldn't have mattered how skillful her boyfriend was at making love, she wouldn't have become aroused unless he hit or humilated her. She is only aroused by violence to her body, because she is sick in the head.

That movie has nothing to do with OP's situation. It stands alone, and is about sick people, plain and simple. Call them mentally ill, or whatever clinical name you want to. The bottom line is that movie does not portray normal people in a normal sexual relationship, and if OP were weak minded and open to suggestion, he could actually make his marriage worse by using this movie as his model. That is the only reason I decided to post that the movie is not about normal people, but sick people.

Why don't you just admit the movie suggestion was stupid and has nothing to do with OP or how normally developed women are and move on?

Also, instead of making belittling comments to and about people, as I and others have witnessed you do countless times, why not stick to refuting their precepts, using evidence to back your arguments?


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