# Wife constantly berates me and yet doesn't work or have kids...



## cody123 (Apr 4, 2012)

I have a complicated relationship. My wife's mother was a single mother, and acted more like a friend than a parent. She smoked pot with her kids since they were in their mid teens and thinks it is ok to get laid off and sit on unemployment until it runs out.

Personally I like her mom very much, but she pampered her kids so much that her daughter often depends on me for everything. I make a very good salary and have worked my ass of and sacrificed to get there. We both enjoy the finer things, but I seem to be the only one that is willing to work for it. My wife is content staying home sleeping until 10am and watching reality TV. Granted she does get a wild hair a few days a week and does a big project around the house but if I ask her to pick something up at the store she waits for me to get off work or somehow doesn't have time. She wants to have kids but I don't want two(her and the baby).

When she has worked I have had to push her into finding a job or as has been the case in her last three have found jobs for her and actually have done everything but interview. Even doing something as little as calling about a discrepancy is a phone bill or something like that she will not do. She wants me to deal with it. 

When I am with her she berates me constantly alone or in public at times. Even in front of people that work for me. For example I was waiting in line at a boat ramp to launch our boat and someone was taking too long in her opinion so she asked if I was going to say something. I didn't see it as a problem and I said no. She said in front of a guy that works for me, "Are you going to grow a pair or do I have to say something?" Every once in a while I will just blow my top. I bottle it up and ask her to stop for a while then I just explode. We have gone to counselling and I had filed for divorce a few years ago, and things got better when she realized I was serious. 

We have sex once a month and we used to have it everyday the first three years and it was amazing now it is a chore to her and she is uninterested. She looks great and I am not in bad shape either. I am not brad put but I am not an ugly guy.

Other than that we do have so many things in common that we like to do together. She is very athletic and active and we have fun with that stuff, but I just wish she would be a partner that was working toward similar goals. I guess what I am saying is that I tend to envy my friends who have wives that are goal oriented and career minded. I wish I could sit down and plan our financial future with her but she just will not talk about things like that.

I am at my ropes end. Someone please give me some advice as I don't want to involve family or friends in this discussion and I am just so frustrated...

Thanks

chris


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I see many red flags in your story. Do NOT have kids with this woman until this improves and it's unlikely it will without professional help. Her childhood reeks of neglect so what do you think she will do to YOUR babies? 

She will still sleep till 10 and watch reality shows all day once the newness wears off. 

And then yes you will then have TWO kids to care for.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

You sound like your wife's sponsor and not her spouse. I don't mean that in a mean way, it's just how it sounds. 

You were fed up enough to play the D card, but didn't follow through. I think she's disrespectful of you partly because of this. You don't mean what you say. No follow through of consequences means, she gets to continue on the way she had been previously.

Considering you dropped that bomb on her once, what do you plan to do now? If you continue to stay and tolerate it, she's got no motivation to change anything IMO. She doesn't sound like she wants to really change anything about herself.


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## Jeff74 (Feb 11, 2012)

You two do not sound compatible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi cody ~

You should cruise by the Men's Clubhouse sub-forum and start reading the sticky thread at the top entitled "The Man Up and Nice Guy Reference".

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

You don't have to just tolerate disrespectful, rude behaviour from your wife...but you are likely enabling her to engage in that kind of behaviour toward you. You can put a stop to it if you are willing to put in the effort to.

Best wishes.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

You gotta put your foot down. She's basically begging you to. No woman is going to respect a guy with no backbone, and until you grow one she's going to keep testing you.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

cody123 said:


> "Are you going to grow a pair or do I have to say something?"


And did you? Because honestly, if Carol said that to me I would have said something like,

You are so right. I DO need to grow a pair. I think I'll start right now. Turn around right now without saying a word and follow me to the car. Be quiet and respectful. We are going home and we're going to have a long discussion about both respect and divorce. _Think VERY carefully about the next thing you do or say. Everything rides on the next 10 seconds._

Actually, given how incredibly grievous that comment was, I might just leave her wherever we were, go home, and start googling for divorce attorneys. You're wife does not respect you one tiny bit. That you just need to come to grips with and decide what you're going to do about it.

Now... the money thing... You're mixing up two separate problems here. She is how she is and a product of her upbringing. It is not going to be easy to change that. You married her. You married a kept wife and you got one. I believe it's called a "trophy wife". I hope she's pretty. 

If you and she are both willing perhaps it can be mitigated over time. But you need to see and cherish her for who she is, not who she is not.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

dig around in your sock drawer and find your balls screw them back on and quit taking crap from her.

don't be an a$$ about it just quit letting her crap on you. when she start any thing just say I'm your husband and I demand respect if you don't like it theres the door let your self out any time you want.


then act pi$$ed until she apoligises.


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## cody123 (Apr 4, 2012)

Point taken! I usually get into it with here but it becomes a long drawn out affair and I get tired of it and retreat to my office and work.

A few years ago when we did discuss the d word we went to Councillor and I saw huge improvement, but after we stopped it all came back.

I just don't think she will ever get it because of the way she was raised. My parents were both very successful business people with a strong work ethic. We were always respectful to each other and her family tend to yell and always want to be right. They don't have a filter between mouth and brain. I cannot take her to any kind of business meeting as she will absolutely say something or make everyone uncomfortable. I find it hard to keep friends as people have told me she makes them uncomfortable.

I think the biggest thing is just pulling the trigger on the big D. We do have so much fun when we are doing active things. She is one of those girls that can do things well that most girls will not even attempt.

I have a lot to think about but in the mean time I will take your advice Jeff.

Thanks Guys!

Chris


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

cody123 said:


> A few years ago when we did discuss the d word we went to Councillor and I saw huge improvement, but after we stopped it all came back.


Of course it did. She pacified you, and then once the dust settled, she went back to being who she is. 



cody123 said:


> I find it hard to keep friends as people have told me she makes them uncomfortable.


So ask yourself this: Even though you have "fun" together, when it comes down to the nit and grit, she can't cut it. Why are YOU staying with someone like this. And please don't give me the reason is all the good times you have. This woman is lacking in a basic need you desire in a woman. Still, you chose her and you have stayed. Does the term, "enabler" sound familiar?



cody123 said:


> She is one of those girls that can do things well that most girls will not even attempt.


Uh, like what? Climb Mount Rushmore? Bungee jump from 200 feet above a gorge? My husband was an Army Ranger. I've done sh!t you wouldn't believe (nor did he). That isn't a reason to stay with someone who puts their foot in their mouth all the time, is lazy, unmotivated to contribute financially to the marriage, or who acts like an idiot in front of your coworkers.

You are a codependent enabler. Why, I do not know. Maybe you should quit threatening divorce and find out why you want to stay married to this woman. There are plenty of women who love adventure. Find one who has motivation to work and the finesse to know when to keep her mouth shut.


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I see many red flags in your story. Do NOT have kids with this woman until this improves and it's unlikely it will without professional help


This. The desire to work is a fundamental part of who you are. She's likely never going to change her opinion about work. Leave now while you're still young.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

cody123 said:


> Point taken! I usually get into it with here but it becomes a long drawn out affair and I get tired of it and retreat to my office and work.


That's because "getting into it" is her game and you cannot win it.

What you need to understand is that there is nothing to get into. There is no argument to be had. There is nothing to discuss. The facts are plain. Your decision is already reached... or should be before you speak to her. There's no need to see a therapist or a marriage counsellor. There's no need for her to see one either. There's no "desperate last plays". There is only you and your decision and her subsequent decision to comply or not.

I didn't include what happens after I give Carol the stink eye and the speech in the parking lot (my example above). What happens is I turn and start walking to the car. By the time I get there, she is either walking quietly and respectfully behind me or not. Either way, I don't care. I get in the car and drive home. If she has obeyed, when we get home we have a discussion. If not, I start googling for divorce lawyers. At no point did I need to discuss anything and there's nothing to argue over. (The "discussion" we are going to have about respect and divorce is not at all a discussion... it's a set of commands... in case you don't understand, a command is a short, declarative statement not a paragraph. They look like this. "Sit down." "Now, just be quiet and listen attentively and respectfully. You will not interrupt. You will listen and obey me... or not... as you see fit."

When you are done telling her how her new life is going to be the only topic you want to field is, "Did you have any questions or are we done here?" Again, there is no argument and no debate. She will try to ask stupid questions. She'll try to get sympathy. She'll beg for forgiveness. She'll work your emotions every way she can. If she doesn't ask meaningful questions then she has none. That means you are done so you can simply leave the room. I would not be sleeping in the same bed with her that night. Have her sleep on the couch or a guest room.

I also disagree that "she'll never get it". Honestly, I hate to say it because it's so trite and almost always wrong. But I think what the girl needs is a firm hand not divorce. My gut feel on this one is that she will respond well to firm direction. And if she doesn't... so what? You've lost very little.


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## Love Song (Jan 16, 2012)

cody123 said:


> I have a complicated relationship. My wife's mother was a single mother, and acted more like a friend than a parent. She smoked pot with her kids since they were in their mid teens and thinks it is ok to get laid off and sit on unemployment until it runs out.
> 
> Personally I like her mom very much, but she pampered her kids so much that her daughter often depends on me for everything. I make a very good salary and have worked my ass of and sacrificed to get there. We both enjoy the finer things, but I seem to be the only one that is willing to work for it. My wife is content staying home sleeping until 10am and watching reality TV. Granted she does get a wild hair a few days a week and does a big project around the house but if I ask her to pick something up at the store she waits for me to get off work or somehow doesn't have time. She wants to have kids but I don't want two(her and the baby).
> 
> ...



People dont change unless they want to change. And her berating you to me says she's unhappy with herself. You don't berate the people you love.


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## Nigel (Mar 14, 2012)

She sounds wonderful. I'd move on if I were you, sounds like she's taking you for a mug.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

People aren't born knowing how to be decent married partners. Most learn something from their parents. Doesn't sound like your wife had much of an example to learn from. If she could spin straw into gold, I might invest the decades of counseling it would take to unscrew her head. People are basically who they are by age 7. They might make slight adjustments but their character is essentially in place. It's the job of parents to raise decent human beings. I believe I'd cut my losses and choose wiser in the future. If you want to see the future, watch how any prospective spouse's parents treat each other. This is another very good reason to be careful about who you make babies with. If you have a screwed up relationship, your kids probably will, too.


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## cody123 (Apr 4, 2012)

You guys and gals have all told me exactly what my parents and friends have told me in the past. I just didn't want any biased in the input and to start a family feud.

How do I do this? I just got a new job in California and am moving across country to a place where I know no one. This will take place in three months. So stressful!


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

cody123 said:


> You guys and gals have all told me exactly what my parents and friends have told me in the past. I just didn't want any biased in the input and to start a family feud.
> 
> How do I do this? I just got a new job in California and am moving across country to a place where I know no one. This will take place in three months. So stressful!


I look at moving as a new adventure. That means NEW people to get to know as well.

Lean on your family for support in doing what you need to do. They will understand and back you up.


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## Carol/BC (Mar 23, 2012)

I think I'm going to suggest a renewed effort at improving the relationship. Every other line in your post talks about a genuine affection for her - and sometimes it's true that opposites just attract. As much as her "think it - say it" habits bug you, they might be a refreshing change from your family's habits.

On the other hand, rude, disrespectful behavior is a deal breaker. I'm a firm believer that we only make big changes to ourselves when we really have to. You say your relationship is complicated, but I'm not sure - people are definitely complicated, but the rules in a good relationship aren't that tough. Go back to counseling. Let her know you're concerned about the stuff you posted.

I've found that different counselors bring different things to the table, so you may learn new skills. I've heard many stories about how the marines will change a wild kid into a disciplined one - so there's hope for her. She just needs some basic training! You can draw a line in the sand about her bad behavior (she needs that for ALL aspects of her life) and you can still have goofy fun. But the two of you need new rules introduced, and I think a counselor will make it clearer. Maybe just self-help books will do it, but you both need to be on the same page and you both need to do things differently.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

cody123 said:


> How do I do this?


Do what? Say "No." It's easy. You say "No." It takes less than a second. I'm serious.

And you are correct. Moving IS stressful. So wouldn't it be nice if your wife were not adding to the hassle?

We are discussing your basic human dignity here. Don't you think it's worth prioritizing? And if you do it the way I said it doesn't take any stress or any effort really. If she really can't grow up, the divorce will take effort, but that's effort you desperately need to expend anyway.

Carol's response was, predictably, more measured than mine. But you should know that she was also horrified at your wife's comments.


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## hisfac (Feb 10, 2012)

You two are living separate lives and the only thing that ties you together is conflict. There's no sex.

You threatened divorce once, she acted better for a while then it was back to the same old thing. You can't keep threatening divorce after a while it just won't work anymore.

You're moving to another state for a new job in 3 months. Maybe you oughta consider making that move alone. At least for the beginning.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

DO NOT have children with your wife child. It will only get worse.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Carol,
I completely agree with this. Cody's model is broken:
- She behaves badly, he does nothing outwardly
- She repeats the process, he slowly gets more upset
- She eventually hits the point where he triggers and blows up

At home, with my delightful, fun, sassy and boundary pushing wife we have a different model:
- She pushes a boundary
- I respond in this shorthand I have developed for just this purpose. It consists of one or more of the following:
a. She does something, I point it out. She explains why it was ok. I am quiet. Within a short time I construct a context where I get to do what she did. She gets indignant. I look confused and say, "gosh you sure look exactly like that woman who was in the kitchen with me an hour ago telling me why this kind of thing is ok". She is fair and sane. She is also aware that there is no escape from the "golden rule gambit". So she smiles - laughs - says sorry (and means it) and we move on. 
b. Brief verbal response:
- Using a confused tone of voice - not an angry one: "What did you just say to me"? 
- And then if I don't like what I hear: "Why would you think I would be ok with you speaking to me like that?"
- With the terminus always being the same if she elects to try to continue to assert herself past my boundary: "That is not acceptable behavior". Followed by a cessation of all conversation other than that regarding kids/schedules until we have satisfactory resolution. And during this time period I am not angry, combative or hostile. I am simply disengaged and determined to remain so until my boundary is acknowledged and respected. Worst case this could take a couple days. Fine by me. 
c. Pure body langauge response: Typically a stare with a tilted head. This is my version of WTF? 
d. When my radar tells me that she WANTS aggression I offer it as an option. (my resting state is likely a full standard deviation LESS aggressive than perhaps she would like): If you say/do that again I *WILL* spank you. 

Cody needs to develop and refine his toolkit. And he needs to get comfortable using it: calmly, and firmly and *in the moment*






Carol/BC said:


> I think I'm going to suggest a renewed effort at improving the relationship. Every other line in your post talks about a genuine affection for her - and sometimes it's true that opposites just attract. As much as her "think it - say it" habits bug you, they might be a refreshing change from your family's habits.
> 
> On the other hand, rude, disrespectful behavior is a deal breaker. I'm a firm believer that we only make big changes to ourselves when we really have to. You say your relationship is complicated, but I'm not sure - people are definitely complicated, but the rules in a good relationship aren't that tough. Go back to counseling. Let her know you're concerned about the stuff you posted.
> 
> I've found that different counselors bring different things to the table, so you may learn new skills. I've heard many stories about how the marines will change a wild kid into a disciplined one - so there's hope for her. She just needs some basic training! You can draw a line in the sand about her bad behavior (she needs that for ALL aspects of her life) and you can still have goofy fun. But the two of you need new rules introduced, and I think a counselor will make it clearer. Maybe just self-help books will do it, but you both need to be on the same page and you both need to do things differently.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Boundary handbook:

Boundary testing: A boundary test is an interaction that violates the golden rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you). 

This handbook is for folks in LTRs including marriage. It is mostly predicated on two things: (1) situational awareness and (2) self control. Being highly aware of boundary testing behaviors will only help you if you are able to manage your Anger, Fear and Insecurity. Get a handle on those and the rest of this is just technique. Practice and you will get good at it. 

If you want to get the most out of this handbook, you should consider the strategies below. 
1.	This is about patterns of behavior not the occasional oops. The purpose here is not to turn anyone into a hyper-vigilant whack job who takes everything personally. It is intended to help you recognize patterns that are important and worth addressing. 
2.	After you read this through the first time, you may be filled with righteous indignation about all the ways your partner violates your boundaries. Stop for a moment and try to determine:
a.	How often you do this type of stuff to them
b.	When you do it, do they make a big deal about it, or not
c.	Whether this is a boundary issue or a different type of relationship issue (maybe you talk too much about stuff they find boring, or maybe you complain a lot more than you realize)
3.	If you decide that your boundaries really are getting badly violated, take heart:
a.	Your partner is likely VERY consistent. This means you can plan ahead how you will respond to these boundary breaching behaviors.
b.	Humor is best, but you should be teasing THEM. Absent humor, be VERY short on words and make heavy use of tone of voice and body language. And stay calm – they may not be calm – but you have to. 
4.	Are they really behaving badly “overall” or are your standards unrealistic? The best way to know is to triangulate:
a.	Do your friends/family show much more respect for your boundaries than your partner does? 
b.	Does your partner show much more respect for their friends and families boundaries than for yours? 

In general you have a serious problem if your partner treats other people noticeably better than they treat you. And if other people treat you a lot better than your partner, that is another bad sign. 

The good news. Even if your partner is consistently violating your boundaries and treating you worse than they treat the maid, it is likely fixable. In fact boundary management can become one of the most entertaining aspects of your marriage if you master it. Engage properly with your “boundary testing partner” and it will help you reach your full emotional potential. And a partner who helps you reach your full potential is by definition a great partner. The stuff below is rarely malicious, it is just a “style of interaction”. 

The bad news. If you do not enforce your boundaries, your partner will gradually lose respect and ultimately love for you. They will frequently do things to you they would absolutely not accept you or anyone else doing to them and they will slowly but surely get “worse” over time. You have two choices, learn how to enforce your boundaries, or continue getting your butt slowly but steadily kicked until finally you literally have no a$$ left and no choice but to stand at attention and do “each and every little thing that pops into their head” until they tire of you and find someone more fun to play with. 

The way a typical person deals with a boundary testing partner is this: 
-	The tester does a series of minor things you dislike. Each of those things is below your threshold for conflict. Hey you’re a grownup. You don’t sweat the small stuff. You don’t want to be petty. Besides you love your spouse and these individual items are “NOT WORTH A FIGHT”. Meanwhile you DO notice this stuff and it is slowly making you angry. 
-	Finally they do one more of them after you have had a long stressful day, or you are tired, or worse have had a few beers. You now erupt into high intensity conflict HIC mode. You say and do inappropriate things. When the dust settles you apologize for being a jerk. Which you SHOULD, because you WERE a jerk. Classic passive/aggressive. Very destructive. After having that happen enough you decide you no longer want to fight (since you always lose) and you simply become passive/passive. 

If you want to get good at this the first step is to recognize the main categories of boundary testing:
1.	I am more important than you are (my time, my feelings, my priorities, my money, my social status)
2.	You are not important: Everything and everybody else in my life consistently gets prioritized ahead of you. 
3.	I am able to directly control your emotional state. I can make you angry, afraid and/or insecure at will
4.	I am able to manipulate your actions through a combination of 1 and 2 in a manner that clearly violates the golden rule 

Before digging into the long, near exhaustive (and therefore possibly boring  list of categorized boundary violating behaviors), I am going to hit the “deadly” dozen. I am starting with the topic of apologies. Or non-apologies. Or one of my favorites “I’m mad at you because you’re mad at me”. 

Apologies: The technical term for this section is Error “management”. I am not even going to call this “conflict” management. Because frankly there are folks who excel at “jumping over” their own bad behavior. Literally they pretend like nothing happened, and they often get away with it. This is a big aspect of a relationship, maybe even be THE biggest one. We all make mistakes, treat each other unfairly, etc. The list below goes from your basic perfect world, slowly down the steps to Hell. When your partner has very clearly treated you badly:
1.	GOLD STANDARD: THEY bring it up shortly after it happens. They don’t wait to see if you will let it go. THEY believe you deserve better than that. They apologize, commit to behaving better next time, and do something nice for you to show their contrition is sincere.
2.	When you bring it up they apologize, commit to fixing it and perform some acts of contrition. 
3.	They don’t apologize but they DO commit to not repeating the behavior. If sincere, this is actually WAY more important than an apology. 
4.	They sincerely apologize but avoid committing to change. Beware the “empty” apology that means nothing. This step is however a positive step. By the second or third empty apology you simply begin insisting on a commitment to improve.
5.	They flat out refuse to commit to handling that type situation differently/better in the future 
6.	They give you the non-apology. Some variation of “I am sorry if that hurt your feelings”. The implication is that you are too sensitive. 
7.	They go into “lawyer” mode and explain that while normally this behavior is frowned on, in this specific case it was justified by “insert long, self serving rationalization”. 
8.	They directly blame you. If only you hadn’t forgotten to take about the trash on Memorial day 3 years ago, they wouldn’t still be angry and would never have done this. 
9.	They deny the whole thing. Look you in the eye and deny that it ever happened. 
10.	They deny the whole thing and attack you for even SUGGESTING they might do something like that.
11.	They deny, attack you for suggesting it and then blow it up into “I am not even talking to you until you apologize” for even saying such a thing. 


I am more important than you are

Assuming you are generally emotionally positive/upbeat and are also conversationally competent, (you don’t subject your partner to endless observations about particle physics, needlepoint, or other stuff they find deadly boring) the stuff below is “I am more important than you”

Focus: 
Some litmus test questions for focus are: 
1.	How difficult is it to get your partners full and undivided attention? 
2.	Does your partner expect or demand your undivided attention, but rarely give you theirs?
3.	Does your partner try to avoid situations where the two of you block out the rest of the world?

If you are interesting and fun to be with, you should address these types of behaviors because they tend to cause ripple effects throughout the relationship. 

Quality Time:
While having dinner for two your partners phone comes out and stays out while they multi-task between your conversation, and a phone based game/texting/talking on the phone. In an extreme case, the phone, not you, is primary focus. This applies to any “one on one” situation including standing in a long line. 

It is ok if your partner is “child focused” to the point where they feel the need to be “available” to the kids/baby sitter while you are out. But that means they only take calls from the kids, keep them brief AND emphasize to the kids/sitter that they want communication limited to urgent matters. 

In the normal course of your day, it is a bad idea to:
1.	Allow your partner to get in the habit of initiating a conversation with you while they are engaged in an activity (reading/texting) that also requires concentration. 
2.	Get in the habit of initiating a conversation while your partner is doing something (reading/texting) with you expecting and clearly being agreeable to getting at most partial attention.
3.	Continue a conversation even though your partner is getting frequently interrupted by non-urgent kids/calls/texts/etc. If they are legitimately busy, go do something else. Hey you have a phone too.
4.	Continue a conversation when your partner is clearly distracted/not fully engaged due to their "internal" state (boredom, fatigue, anxiety about something). If they are anxious about something, get them to talk about it. But don’t settle for partial attention. 

Prioritization:
Don’t confuse “focus” with “prioritization”. A good example of the distinction: You spend 8 uninterrupted hours together, and your partner is focused – but the WHOLE conversation is about THEM. Even worse, when you attempt to actually change the subject to you, they quickly steer it back to themselves. This is a matter of “I am paying attention to you solely to ensure we are both completely focused on ME”. 
Some litmus test questions for prioritization are: 
1.	How often does your partner really want to know about your day? I don’t mean they ask the perfunctory “how was your day”? I mean, they really want to know. And when you tell them they empathize and even ask some questions. 
2.	How often do you actually do what “you” want, when your partner wants to do something else? 
3.	How often do they even open up with “what/where would you like to “go/do”?

The spectrum for handling priority “conflicts” is below. From “great” to – “why don’t my needs matter”?:
1.	Giving: They know you. And that means they know what matters to you. If the conflict is in an area where it is very important to you, and not so much to them, they smile and do what makes you happy. 
2.	Proactive: THEY suggest a solution which meets both your needs even if it isn’t exactly what you want right now. 
3.	Reactive/cooperative: They don’t make a win/win suggestion, but are fully receptive to yours
4.	Reactive/resistant: They resist but ultimately agree to the win/win
5.	Oppositional/defiant: They refuse the win/win even when it is fair. They want what they want. What you want – well that doesn’t matter because ummmm – well – you don’t matter.

B. Tone: (from good to – why the hell did I marry this person)
1.	Using a loving, patient and kind tone
2.	Using a neutral tone
3.	Speaking to you as if you are less than an equal/a servant - issuing commands - instead of making requests 
4.	Responding to a serious/awkward question you have asked - with silence
5.	Interrupting you frequently and/or interrupting you without acknowledging they have done so with a - "sorry I interrupted - what were you saying"?
6.	Allowing or subtly encouraging THEIR friends/family to routinely interrupt you 
7.	Frequently putting you down in private sometimes under the guise of joking around 
8.	Putting you down in public 
9.	Being quickly/casually dismissive of your suggestions, requests and/or ideas
10.	When you first see each other at the end of a work day immediately complaining, nagging, launching into a long detailed self focused interaction
11.	Responding with impatience/anger/indifference when you are trying to convey something important/intimate about yourself (such as initiating sex, or actually while you are having sex, or sharing a painful experience)

2. If you let them, these “may or may not be” examples of “I can control your emotional state”: 
A.	In the middle of a low emotion conversation you get “sucker punched”. Which means your partner is being highly critical of you, and/or is very angry/threatening towards you without any warning and with little or no apparent reason
B.	Trying to get you to own “their” emotions. For instance “I am too stressed” to ever be in the mood. This is an indirect way to say “unless you can remove most/all the stressors from my environment” you will be involuntary celibate “inCel”
C.	Repeatedly delivering a critical or negative message wrapped in humor and claiming “they are just kidding”
D.	Taking their bad day out “on” you, instead of sharing it “with” you 
E.	Attacking your “core” instead of addressing a situation
F.	Attacking your behavior with “always and never” you always “…” you never “…” 
G.	Rapidly escalating in emotional intensity and aggressiveness when you disagree with how they are treating you
H.	Working the “fear” button by:
o Vague or not so vague threats to end the relationship
o	Forming and pursuing inappropriate relationships with potential mates

3. If you let them, these “may or may not be” examples of “I can control your behavior”: 
A. Acting angry when:
o	They were clearly in the wrong until YOU apologize or
o	Until YOU try to defuse by being extra nice even if you don’t overtly apologize
o	You bring up a topic they don’t want to discuss (lack of sex, rude behavior on their part, inconsiderate behavior on their part)
o	You talk about doing something they don’t want you to do, and when asked about “why” they don’t want you to do it, giving you the “shutdown” via “I am not going to discuss this with you”. Staying angry until you agree not to do it
o	They aren’t getting their way
B. Accusing YOU of being controlling when:
o	You are simply enforcing reasonable boundaries 
o	You are asking them to follow through on a commitment 
C. Getting you to complement them or even getting you to initiate sex when they have no intention of saying yes
o	Flirting with you during the day and then avoiding bed until they are “too tired”
o	Flirting with you and then when you initiate, creating some conflict to avoid sex
o	Asking you for compliments on their appearance when they never reciprocate




cody123 said:


> You guys and gals have all told me exactly what my parents and friends have told me in the past. I just didn't want any biased in the input and to start a family feud.
> 
> How do I do this? I just got a new job in California and am moving across country to a place where I know no one. This will take place in three months. So stressful!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jeff,
I agree this type behavior is not acceptable. And if it cannot be resolved is valid grounds for divorce. Everyone has to choose the pace of escalation which works best for their relationship. The pacing below strikes me as overly aggressive. Sometimes a partner needs tome to process why their transgression was a deal breaker. Invoking a 180 immediately and leaving it in place until you reach resolution or dissolution is what has worked best for me.


OTE=Jeff/BC;663345]That's because "getting into it" is her game and you cannot win it.

What you need to understand is that there is nothing to get into. There is no argument to be had. There is nothing to discuss. The facts are plain. Your decision is already reached... or should be before you speak to her. There's no need to see a therapist or a marriage counsellor. There's no need for her to see one either. There's no "desperate last plays". There is only you and your decision and her subsequent decision to comply or not.

I didn't include what happens after I give Carol the stink eye and the speech in the parking lot (my example above). What happens is I turn and start walking to the car. By the time I get there, she is either walking quietly and respectfully behind me or not. Either way, I don't care. I get in the car and drive home. If she has obeyed, when we get home we have a discussion. If not, I start googling for divorce lawyers. At no point did I need to discuss anything and there's nothing to argue over. (The "discussion" we are going to have about respect and divorce is not at all a discussion... it's a set of commands... in case you don't understand, a command is a short, declarative statement not a paragraph. They look like this. "Sit down." "Now, just be quiet and listen attentively and respectfully. You will not interrupt. You will listen and obey me... or not... as you see fit."

When you are done telling her how her new life is going to be the only topic you want to field is, "Did you have any questions or are we done here?" Again, there is no argument and no debate. She will try to ask stupid questions. She'll try to get sympathy. She'll beg for forgiveness. She'll work your emotions every way she can. If she doesn't ask meaningful questions then she has none. That means you are done so you can simply leave the room. I would not be sleeping in the same bed with her that night. Have her sleep on the couch or a guest room.

I also disagree that "she'll never get it". Honestly, I hate to say it because it's so trite and almost always wrong. But I think what the girl needs is a firm hand not divorce. My gut feel on this one is that she will respond well to firm direction. And if she doesn't... so what? You've lost very little.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

Mem:

You are, of course, correct. Everyone's pacing AND style is their own. I should hope that nobody would take anything I write and apply it to their own lives without substantial fitting at a bare minimum. That would be... uh... unwise LOL

For me, at least, long and drawn out cat & mouse games are just not something I'm going to fool around with when there's only one possible outcome anyway and no real complications in the path. I don't recognize her need to "process why the transgression is a deal breaker". That just seems like yet more enabling behavior to me. What next? We have to wait because she chipped a nail? Did her friend text her? You are a much, much more tolerant and patient person than me.

That, however, is the beauty of forums like this. Hopefully the OP will cobble together a piece of this and a stitch of that into something that makes actual sense in his reality.

I'm almost afraid to ask... is a "180" from that nice guy stuff?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

180 is total indifference to your partner. If you google it you get this 1-2 page list on tactics.

Most of the people who come on here have great difficulty executing on it. Let's face it, if you have strong emotional self control and enforce your boundaries, you generally don't need to do a 180.

TE=Jeff/BC;665266]Mem:

You are, of course, correct. Everyone's pacing AND style is their own. I should hope that nobody would take anything I write and apply it to their own lives without substantial fitting at a bare minimum. That would be... uh... unwise LOL

For me, at least, long and drawn out cat & mouse games are just not something I'm going to fool around with when there's only one possible outcome anyway and no real complications in the path. I don't recognize her need to "process why the transgression is a deal breaker". That just seems like yet more enabling behavior to me. What next? We have to wait because she chipped a nail? Did her friend text her? You are a much, much more tolerant and patient person than me.

That, however, is the beauty of forums like this. Hopefully the OP will cobble together a piece of this and a stitch of that into something that makes actual sense in his reality.

I'm almost afraid to ask... is a "180" from that nice guy stuff?[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

Make her get a job.

Do stuff for yourself. Find a hobby to do without her. Make friends in that hobby.

Then , when she brings up about wanting a kid or whatever... tell her, she doesn't have the responsibility to hold down a normal full time job. How the hell does she think she could handle the responsibility of a baby/child? Would she be able to financially support herself & her child if you two ever divorce?

Then, put your foot down & tell her to get a job.


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## 67flh (Sep 26, 2011)

cody, whatever u do,make your move BEFORE you move to calif!!! christ you will get raped by the courts out there.lifetime alimony etc.


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## itgetsbetter (Mar 1, 2012)

cody123 said:


> I have a complicated relationship. My wife's mother was a single mother, and acted more like a friend than a parent. She smoked pot with her kids since they were in their mid teens and thinks it is ok to get laid off and sit on unemployment until it runs out.
> 
> Personally I like her mom very much, but she pampered her kids so much that her daughter often depends on me for everything. I make a very good salary and have worked my ass of and sacrificed to get there. We both enjoy the finer things, but I seem to be the only one that is willing to work for it. My wife is content staying home sleeping until 10am and watching reality TV. Granted she does get a wild hair a few days a week and does a big project around the house but if I ask her to pick something up at the store she waits for me to get off work or somehow doesn't have time. She wants to have kids but I don't want two(her and the baby).
> 
> ...


Ok it sounds like your wife isn't career oriented ands wants to live a laid back lifestyle and be a stay-at-home mom.

*This is not a character flaw.* 

It is a _difference._ 

You're not wrong for wanting her to be a working wife/mom. She's not wrong either. It's simply a difference in the way you two want to live. A big one...but it doesn't make either of you bad or wrong. 

You two may be able to come to a satisfying compromise on this though. This doesn't have to kill a marriage. 

However, you seem SO desirous of her being career minded...and she seems the polar oppposite...it does make me wonder how y'all came to marry with such opposite approaches. Did you expect her to become career minded? Or did she make herself appear that way and then change?

Her being unwilling to have an active sex life with you AND her expectations that you should do the majority of errand/chore work instead of her? Those are things I agree are legitimate areas your wife has to change. 

Frequently when a woman's expectations (even if they are not reasonable expectations) are not met for an extended period of time, she becomes belligerent, disrespectful, emasculating, etc of her husband. It sounds like this has happened here.

Your wife's expectations are very skewed - probably from her childhood experiences - and so she's probably feeling at least as dissatisfied in your relationship as you are.

I think you've gotten some grandiose advice...A LOT of advice telling you to control her better (not helpful in the long term)...what you two need is some good old fashioned counseling. There is NO call for all the divorce talk at this point. Sheesh...it's a marriage...nobody has cheated, abandoned or beaten each other. The divorce talk can be pushed aside for now in favor of counseling. Get help. Decide to fix things. Work on it. Divorce doesn't need to be in the vocabulary of your marriage at this stage in the game.

You two need to figure out if you even want the same things out of life. Your wife needs to literally learn what a productive life looks like....no one ever taught her. She's not going to take your word for it. She needs a professional to walk her through this.

Best wishes!


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> 180 is total indifference to your partner. Let's face it, if you have strong emotional self control and enforce your boundaries, you generally don't need to do a 180.


Ahhh... yes. Now I understand. Basically it's punishment... or negative reinforcement... or call it what you will. And yes, you are correct. There's no need for that sort of thing when the boundaries are established and maintained before hand... or even at the moment.

The nice thing about having smoothly running boundaries and agreements is that you get to stop spending your time on negative stuff like boundaries and instead invest in the positive things like... say... figuring out what you could've done better yesterday and doing it today.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

itgetsbetter said:


> Sheesh...it's a marriage...nobody has cheated, abandoned or beaten each other.


For me, according to my own sense of priorities and self, the public emasculation stuff the OP's wife did would be much, much worse than cheating. If Carol cheated on me I'd be wondering if she still wanted me. What the OP's wife did would have me wondering whether I still wanted her... after just one incident of that.

As I think on it, for me it'd be about on par with beating.


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