# Why and how?



## Dday (Mar 31, 2013)

Dealing with my WW's affair and our R this is the only question I still have. Why did she do this and how could she do this? What answers have some of you gotten that have been acceptable. I understand nothing may be but I'm just trying to deal with this the best way possible. 

Our MC has said there may be no answer but that isn't good enough for me. I know that she lost attraction to me and obviously had attraction to somebody else but that doesn't give enough reason to have an affair. How did her values get compromised and do something that she knew was so wrong. Is she really a bad person? 

I have read so much on this topic and how good people have affairs... Why? Doesn't this make them a bad person now? 

How can she lie about what she was doing, when I expressed concerns well into the affair and well before Dday? Is it a good thing that she was lying?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Do NOT let the MC minimize or let her get away with that sh-t, bud. There WAS a reason. Just because she isn't willing to admit it, doesn't mean it's not there.

Look, here's the way it works. Don't matter if it's a dude or a chick that does the cheating. In the end, an affair is purely about selfishness, egoism and denial of reality.

A "bad" person can only be defined by you. My wife had an affair. Pretty damn long one, too. She most definitely in my eyes was a bad person. However, for the past 14 months she's been doing everything that she has to in an attempt to regain my trust and repair the sh-tstorm she created.

Only 100% open and honest communication, transparency and her doing HER share to help you understand the WHY. You'll be hardpressed, in my opinion, to reconcile without that question being fully and properly addressed.

I'm curious...how does your MC feel about exposure of the affair and details of the affair.


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## Dday (Mar 31, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> Do NOT let the MC minimize or let her get away with that sh-t, bud. There WAS a reason. Just because she isn't willing to admit it, doesn't mean it's not there.
> 
> Look, here's the way it works. Don't matter if it's a dude or a chick that does the cheating. In the end, an affair is purely about selfishness, egoism and denial of reality.
> 
> ...


Everything else has been great, communication, transparency, and true remorse have all been there. 

What was your wife's reason for the affair?

Our MC has told her to answer every question I have, as many times that I ask them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm of the opinion that it takes an inherently sh*tty person to have an affair. Plain and simple.

Wouldn't you have to be, to intentionally inflict SO MUCH brutal pain and suffering on the one person who trusts you the most?

I refuse to be married to someone capable of such heinousness. If they are capable of doing that to YOU, their "beloved spouse", what else are they capable of?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Dday said:


> Everything else has been great, communication, transparency, and true remorse have all been there.
> 
> What was your wife's reason for the affair?
> 
> ...


Her reason was that she was feeling overwhelmed and underappreciated in the marriage. Our communication was at an all time low. She entered the affair because he gave her what she thought she was missing...and that escape into the Land of Unicorns and f'ng Rainbows lasted *5* God damned years. 

I never knew. Mostly because I was flying all over the world and wasn't home. I don't blame my career, though. It simply made her deception easier to continue. Truth is, when I quit flying it only took me 5 months to catch her.

She has admitted now that she lied to herself first of all and then everyone around her. The escape from reality in the affair was what she wanted/needed. No me, no kids, no bills...nothing but "bliss". Which, in the end, she realized was nothing but a lie.


EDIT: Good that your MC says that about the questions. Regret knows that if she has to answer a question 500 times, then that's what she has to do. And I just might ask again.


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## dusty4 (May 8, 2013)

Dday. The only question I have for you is, why does it matter "why" she did this? I only ask because for me, I didn't care "why", all that mattered to me is that it happened.

There was no "why" that would have made a difference to me because even if things were bad in the marriage, her decision to cheat is not my responsibility.

I can tell you that she just couldn't handle the whole inconvenient "forsaking all others" part. Couldn't handle the fact that I would be the only man she was suppose to have sex with for the rest of her life.

Having said that, it makes no difference to me knowing it wasn't something I did. It happened, thats what matters.

So I guess I wonder what knowing the "why" would do for you. Would it make you more likely to forgive her?

As far as the MC saying there may not be a reason "why", that is a load of bunk. There is a reason, just not something your wife is brave enough to admit, and the counselor knows, and saying there may not be a reason is a lie. Which is why I don't hold much stock in MC(not to say that is will or won't work for you).


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Dday said:


> Our MC has said there may be no answer but that isn't good enough for me. I know that she lost attraction to me and obviously had attraction to somebody else but that doesn't give enough reason to have an affair. How did her values get compromised and do something that she knew was so wrong. Is she really a bad person?


No, that may be the reason. Answers like “I don’t know”, or, “It just happened”, or “I lowered my standards”… are not answers. But if she lost attraction for you and found it elsewhere is acceptable. It is also something that will happen again and again.


Dday said:


> I have read so much on this topic and how good people have affairs... Why? Doesn't this make them a bad person now?


I don’t know if “bad” is always appropriate. They are betrayers. They have no respect for others. Their promises are worthless… 



Dday said:


> How can she lie about what she was doing, when I expressed concerns well into the affair and well before Dday?


Lying is part and parcel of the addiction and their personality. Some people are generally honest and some aren’t. Betrayers aren’t. And never will be as they are addicts. That doesn’t guarantee they will betray again, but you should know that trust is never again fully realized.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

The most often cited response to the question of 'why' is, "I don't know." This doesn't really mean that they don't know, however. It just means that it is hard to put into words and even when it can be put into words, it is potentially too painful for the BS to hear.

You can demand that she answer in a thoughtful way. Give her a week to think hard and write down her response. Writing often forces clarity.


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## strongsad (Mar 2, 2013)

It takes an unstable person to have an affair, and i dont think any answer to my 'why' and especialy 'how' questions would be good enough really. My ww literally planned to do it. A while after a short ea/pa with my friend and sexting with people from CL, she saw an ad for that oh so popular AM affair website. 

She decided she 'wanted' to have an affair, so she did. Several of them. It takes a mentally effed up person to do that to their spouse. Obviously she needed help and is getting it now, ic has helped her quite a bit already and her main answer to the Why? Is that she craved the attention (from men especially) and she would do anything to get it. She says she has no idea how she could have been so cold to have ever done this, but she guarentees it will never happen again if I give her the chance to show me, so I am. The why and how are difficult because I know, I want them answered so badly sometimes, but I rememeber that she was basically crazy in lala land. I've basically accepted that she wanted to have sex with other people, her values were smashed from her terrible childhood and she thought in her mind that it wasn't really that bad. She covered her tracks so well she almost got away with it. She was a bad person. I don't want to be with that person anymore. So she is changing and becoming a good person that I do want to be with and we are trying to build an affair proof marriage now. I wish you the best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday (Mar 31, 2013)

I guess I do know "why" but will never understand "how".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

From what I have read here, "why" cannot be trusted anyway. I think I would be fooling myself to believe the answers. I would place myself in a greater state of denial.

I really like the response from dusty4. It really makes me think. Denial takes many forms within the wayward and the betrayed for opposing reasons.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Dday said:


> I guess I do know "why" but will never understand "how".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's way easier. 
From what I recall it was a friendship which went out of hand. Read Not just Friends, read about the slipery slope.
She slowly let OM met certain "emotional needs" which she never had to was she fully aware of the necessity to protect herself and the marriage to begin with. In those cases boundaires are very slowly eroded until they cross every single unaceptable line. Sometimes EAs are insidious.
I suspect one of those "needs" your wife sought with OM was feeling needed. You likely don't project this but in these cases APs become "projects", it's the female version of being a KISA.
I believe your sitch looks like mine in certains details.


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## Dday (Mar 31, 2013)

Acabado said:


> It's way easier.
> From what I recall it was a friendship which went out of hand. Read Not just Friends, read about the slipery slope.
> She slowly let OM met certain "emotional needs" which she never had to was she fully aware of the necessity to protect herself and the marriage to begin with. In those cases boundaires are very slowly eroded until they cross every single unaceptable line. Sometimes EAs are insidious.
> I suspect one of those "needs" your wife sought with OM was feeling needed. You likely don't project this but in these cases APs become "projects", it's the female version of being a KISA.
> I believe your sitch looks like mine in certains details.


Thanks acabado, that makes a lot of sense. I did read not just friends and understand what you are saying. 

Her reasons to me were:

Lost attractiveness
She felt like she was doing all the chores herself anyway
I only acted like I liked her when I wanted to have sex

Basically what came out of MC is that I am very passive aggressive. This left her feeling that I only wanted sex and nothing else, our conversations were only about what needed to get done and when. All of my energy and fun side was reserved for friends or in other social situations. 

What you bring up is more of the how. She let the OM fill certain needs that I wasn't providing and they went very slow in the beginning. They didn't kiss for a solid month after the EA started. Then they didn't have sex until over 2 months after that. Even then they didn't have sex for another month after that. 

I have been tempted in the past just based on mutual attraction but I wouldn't let it get to the next level. I guess that is different as guys are generally more aggressive and if a attractive women was throwing herself at me repeatedly I can see how it would be easy to screw up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

As a fWW, I can tell you there is a reason. It's something she doesn't want to answer or give you yet but it is needed. Without understanding that and admitting it, there is a lot of possibility of doing it again.

It's facing it, saying it, admitting it and then being held accountable to make sure that that reason, condition, etc. never happens again.

That said, if you REALLY want to hear it (and if you're going to R, you should), you have to make this a safe place for her to give you that answer. My answer involved a lot of resentment and anger for decisions and things that taken a huge financial toll on our family and in turn our marriage. I hadn't ever REALLY told him how much it had all just hurt me and that I wasn't ok with those choices. 

Resentment is a HUGE relationship killer.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

If you are trying to R, then your wife needs to get to the bottom of 'why' for her own sake, so that she doesn't repeat it.

My husband was feeling isolated in our marriage, and whenever he has felt like that he historically retreated into inappropriate sexual behaviours and encounters of various kinds. After he got counseling he recognized this pattern and now has steps in place to deal with it in a more appropriate way.

As for the 'how', you're asking how she could do what she did? If you mean how could she hurt you so badly, that's the same as why. If you're asking how, as in what actions did she perform, she needs to tell you that. That's dealing in facts that only she and the AP know.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

It happened because she loves herself. 

It really is that simple.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Vanguard said:


> It happened because she loves herself.
> 
> It really is that simple.


Wow. What did you do?


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Dday said:


> Dealing with my WW's affair and our R this is the only question I still have. Why did she do this and how could she do this? What answers have some of you gotten that have been acceptable. I understand nothing may be but I'm just trying to deal with this the best way possible.
> 
> Our MC has said there may be no answer but that isn't good enough for me. I know that she lost attraction to me and obviously had attraction to somebody else but that doesn't give enough reason to have an affair. How did her values get compromised and do something that she knew was so wrong. Is she really a bad person?
> 
> ...


Her values didn't change.. (mid life crisis?) she concluded the marriage with you in her mind, because this new person as her new love. He became her alpha male, and her savior.. he was going to fix her, and make all her problems go away. She self brainwashed.. made you a bad person in her mind, started to resent you.. it was all justified too, because she felt she was also a bad person, so it's okay for her to do bad things.. it's what bad people do. (my situation in a nutshell, add in some family stress and depression)

When she was unfaithful to you, and lying, she was a bad person... that's not acceptable behavior in a marriage. If she's telling you truths now, being honest and true.. and helping you heal, she's a good person that was doing bad things.

Stay in therapy.. If you don't feel better after talking to your therapist, get another one... She also needs to work on her self esteem and her self image.

Best of luck to you both.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Wow. What did you do?


Maybe I should clarify-- "She" in this context means anyone who cheats. 

People don't understand what love really is. A wayward's desperate attempt to keep the one they betrayed will vehemently declare that they "love" their spouse. They may actually believe this but the truth is it's garbage. They love themselves. They don't want to lose that person because they love themselves. 

In the same way that a parent won't discipline their child, because they're afraid that the child will hate them. They don't want to be hated by their child, and they think that it's because they love said child. But the reality is that they love themselves. They love the way they feel when that person accepts them and treats them well. 

If they really loved their kids they would discipline them. And if a wayward spouse really, really loved the person they gutted, they would let them go.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Vanguard said:


> And if a wayward spouse really, really loved the person they gutted, they would let them go.


Too blanket and too clean to be full reality. It ain't that simple unfortunately.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Vanguard said:


> Maybe I should clarify-- "She" in this context means anyone who cheats.
> 
> People don't understand what love really is. A wayward's desperate attempt to keep the one they betrayed will vehemently declare that they "love" their spouse. They may actually believe this but the truth is it's garbage. They love themselves. They don't want to lose that person because they love themselves.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation. 

I agree with Dig on that one sentence.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

TCSRedhead said:


> As a fWW, I can tell you there is a reason. It's something she doesn't want to answer or give you yet but it is needed. Without understanding that and admitting it, there is a lot of possibility of doing it again.
> 
> It's facing it, saying it, admitting it and then being held accountable to make sure that that reason, condition, etc. never happens again.
> 
> ...


I fail to see a connection between bad financial decisions and having sex with someone other than your husband.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Vanguard said:


> Maybe I should clarify-- "She" in this context means anyone who cheats.
> 
> People don't understand what love really is. A wayward's desperate attempt to keep the one they betrayed will vehemently declare that they "love" their spouse. They may actually believe this but the truth is it's garbage. They love themselves. They don't want to lose that person because they love themselves.
> 
> ...


My stbxw still tells me how much she loves me - we are close to being divorced. Just yesterday, she texted me "I love you now more than ever...". Hmmph.

She certainly sees what she lost now. Rephrase - she certainly sees what she threw away now.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> I fail to see a connection between bad financial decisions and having sex with someone other than your husband.


I believe you see it. She already made the conexion if you really want to read it. She's not making excuses about it.
We people use anger to make the most awful decisions since the beginning of time.


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Acabado said:


> I believe you see it. She already made the conexion if you really want to read it. She's not making excuses about it.
> We people use anger to make the most awful decisions since the beginning of time.


I really don't. I can maybe see a connection between "he completely ignored me and was abusive", or "she withheld sex from me for 10 years". But I don't see it with this.

Not that it matters...it's all bullsh*t anyway.


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## JustGrinding (Oct 26, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> I fail to see a connection between bad financial decisions and having sex with someone other than your husband.


LOL! They don't slip many by you, do they, TD?


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

JustGrinding said:


> LOL! They don't slip many by you, do they, TD?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Dday said:


> I have been tempted in the past just based on mutual attraction but I wouldn't let it get to the next level.


And therein lies the problem bewteen a betrayer and one who does not betray. The betrayer gives into temptation to feed their selfishness.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> I fail to see a connection between bad financial decisions and having sex with someone other than your husband.


In my case, I never slept with anyone other than my husband. 

However, when you have a lot of built up resentment, anger, hostility in a marriage, the intimacy disappears. Meaning NO ONE is getting their needs met emotionally, physically or mentally.

I didn't justify what I did - simply gave the reasons WHY it had gotten to that point. 

Your hostile response is exactly the atmosphere that will prevent open communication to allow a reconciliation to occur. 

To reconcile and rebuild, it meant being brutally and harshly honest with each other regardless of how painful that was.


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## crazyace (Aug 20, 2012)

Sorry, if I keep asking this question again and again. But I fail to understand ... she has her reason for why she did this as you rightly stated. Then she convinced herself of that reason, and stated in MC that it was the reason why she had an affair. So when she was caught with the phone, and she was so convinced, how come she decided to leave her OM and not you ?? If I remember right he was a good lover also, and protected her emotional side , where as she thought you only wanted her for sex. So once she is caught how does everything change? how does she almost imm. start seeing it as wrong and what she did was wrong and what she thought was wrong.. Sorry but for me, the only realisation can be is tht since she is caught she will hv to live on her own as the OM can give her a emotional and physical fulfillment but not the monetory benifits that she has with you. And then she will not be able to sustain to that with the children and their needs so she made a very clever decision to be with you and show you the remorse. God forbid, tomorrow she will have new reasons.. I request you to discuss this point with your wife in or outside MC as stated here... and get an answer for it


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

TCSRedhead said:


> To reconcile and rebuild, it meant being brutally and harshly honest with each other regardless of how painful that was.


That very painful moment when you realize she's no longer holding back information, and answering every question.. as much as it hurts, oh my god it hurts.... it's what allows the R to remain an option.


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## megmg (Sep 30, 2012)

As fwh, WHY? yes there are reasons, are they enough or are we just blaming other things than ourselves, I can blame lots of things that were stressful around the times I betrayed my W, mother dying, moving house, financial pressures, not feeling wanted, not being in control... All the above but at the end of the day I went outside of my marriage for quick fix to a need, what I should have done was taken stock of my life changed what I did not like and took time out to tell my wife instead of turning my back on her or try to change what i was doing

HOW? detachment they were there to be used! In my case they were not attractive in any way, they made it known that they wanted me and at that moment I took it(if any know my story then that's not specifically true in a physical way but I did try so its just as bad) I did not consider any consequences when I did these things although afterwards I did know that if W found out then it would be over, I did fool myself into thinking she would never find out...... How big a fool I am!!!!

So far we are still trying (I hope) and pray daily that it will work itself out one day...


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

russell28 said:


> That very painful moment when you realize she's no longer holding back information, and answering every question.. as much as it hurts, oh my god it hurts.... it's what allows the R to remain an option.


I'm glad you're having those conversations. Be careful not to allow any of it to become the JUSTIFICATION. If you feel yourself start to get angry or defensive, table the conversation for later when you can both be less emotional.

This is for understanding what was happening at that time so you can both work towards building road blocks to prevent going there again. 

It's building mechanisms to be able to talk about things that are happening in a non-threatening manner so you CAN work them out. 

It killed me to talk about these things since I felt I had already injured him so badly and had no right to even mention anything negative but until we did that, there could be no R. 

There were just as many in the category where I had failed him in this conversation as well.


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## Dday (Mar 31, 2013)

crazyace said:


> Sorry, if I keep asking this question again and again. But I fail to understand ... she has her reason for why she did this as you rightly stated. Then she convinced herself of that reason, and stated in MC that it was the reason why she had an affair. So when she was caught with the phone, and she was so convinced, how come she decided to leave her OM and not you ?? If I remember right he was a good lover also, and protected her emotional side , where as she thought you only wanted her for sex. So once she is caught how does everything change? how does she almost imm. start seeing it as wrong and what she did was wrong and what she thought was wrong.. Sorry but for me, the only realisation can be is tht since she is caught she will hv to live on her own as the OM can give her a emotional and physical fulfillment but not the monetory benifits that she has with you. And then she will not be able to sustain to that with the children and their needs so she made a very clever decision to be with you and show you the remorse. God forbid, tomorrow she will have new reasons.. I request you to discuss this point with your wife in or outside MC as stated here... and get an answer for it


Crazyace, I did ask her that specific question... And I continue to ask it. She never had any long term plans to stay with him. Never talked about divorce or them living together. She could tell when I found out how hurt I was and how much I loved her. I really don't show emotions and was probably the first time she saw me cry and get that angry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## crazyace (Aug 20, 2012)

So when she was doing this, what was her idea, 
1. that she can be with you as a wife and continue with her affair ?
2. She can get her luxuries from you but give her love and her self to OM?
3. What about the time when she was doing him and coming home and then getting in your arms saying 'I Love you' ... and might be thinking "I just need to keep up with this act" ??

How was this done .. ?


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> I don't want a reconciliation to occur, so I don't really care.
> 
> Hate to break it to you - but affairs, P or E, cause hostility in the BS. Deal.


I understand you don't want a reconciliation to occur. The OP (the purpose for my post) does and is asking for feedback.

Not sure why you feel the need to be hostile towards me but you can deal, mmmkay? My purpose for being here is to learn more about what I can do to heal my marriage and to help others do the same. Thankyouverymuch.


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## Dday (Mar 31, 2013)

crazyace said:


> So when she was doing this, what was her idea,
> 1. that she can be with you as a wife and continue with her affair ?
> 2. She can get her luxuries from you but give her love and her self to OM?
> 3. What about the time when she was doing him and coming home and then getting in your arms saying 'I Love you' ... and might be thinking "I just need to keep up with this act" ??
> ...


I don't know. That is my "how" question

I think I know why. But will never know how. Maybe it's as simple that she is selfish and always gets what she wants. She is an only child.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The-Deceived said:


> I have hostility in general for cheaters.


This is understandable, but you really need to tone it down a notch. There are some cheaters on here who really ARE truly remorseful for what they've done. Just because your stbxw isn't doesn't mean everyone should be painted with the same brush.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

The-Deceived said:


> I have hostility in general for cheaters.


It sucks moose balls to be in the position of the betrayed. Yet, that is the hand we were dealt. It doesn't mean that we get to sit in judgement of everyone. It means we got a sh-t hand. There are far too many people on this board who made idiotic and imbecilic decisions, but they have done their heavy lifting for their betrayed ones. I wouldn't be so brash as to just piss on their every comment because of what you went through.

Having an open dialogue about the worst stuff that can happen in a relationship is what this forum is about. It's a place where waywards AND betrayeds post. The waywards that stick around and post, do so because they have done a lot of work. The ones that leave are the ones that didn't have the guts to face the music.

I wouldn't simply dismiss a poster because they were the wayward in their situation. I would read their previous posts first in an attempt to see where they're coming from. Shooting from the hip rarely gives one a kill shot.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Vanguard said:


> Maybe I should clarify-- "She" in this context means anyone who cheats.
> 
> People don't understand what love really is. A wayward's desperate attempt to keep the one they betrayed will vehemently declare that they "love" their spouse. They may actually believe this but the truth is it's garbage. They love themselves. *They don't want to lose that person because they love themselves.*
> 
> ...


I get your point, I believe, but I don't think they love themselves. They love some idea of who they are, but that's not who they are. 

In order to truly love someone else, you have to truly love yourself, not the person wearing "masks" who, when they look in the mirror thinks they are great. 

Some people wear masks all their lives, to the point where they don't even realize they don't know who they really are.


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

Dday said:


> I don't know. That is my "how" question
> 
> I think I know why. But will never know how. Maybe it's as simple that she is selfish and always gets what she wants. She is an only child.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Selfishness is the key. A want to do something they desire, regardless of the consequences it has in others. in an affair, they think only of themselves, always.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

russell28 said:


> That very painful moment when you realize she's no longer holding back information, and answering every question.. as much as it hurts, oh my god it hurts.... it's what allows the R to remain an option.


:iagree: This is when true R can begin..........if WS is strong enough and wants to R enough


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## The-Deceived (Jan 8, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> This is understandable, but you really need to tone it down a notch. There are some cheaters on here who really ARE truly remorseful for what they've done. Just because your stbxw isn't doesn't mean everyone should be painted with the same brush.


Thanks, I'll take that into consideration.


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> It sucks moose balls to be in the position of the betrayed. Yet, that is the hand we were dealt. It doesn't mean that we get to sit in judgement of everyone. It means we got a sh-t hand. There are far too many people on this board who made idiotic and imbecilic decisions, but they have done their heavy lifting for their betrayed ones. I wouldn't be so brash as to just piss on their every comment because of what you went through.
> 
> Having an open dialogue about the worst stuff that can happen in a relationship is what this forum is about. It's a place where waywards AND betrayeds post. *The waywards that stick around and post, do so because they have done a lot of work. The ones that leave are the ones that didn't have the guts to face the music.*
> 
> I wouldn't simply dismiss a poster because they were the wayward in their situation. I would read their previous posts first in an attempt to see where they're coming from. Shooting from the hip rarely gives one a kill shot.


:iagree: with it all, but mostly the bolded


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

"Why?", is the one question I cannot come to grips with about my H's last EA/Internet affair when we were still in R from the one a year prior, or so I thought. He isn't sure himself. It changes from, "I was curious, I thought we could just be friends", etc. He can't believe he did this again and hurt me again. 

He does seem sincere this time and he is doing everything right about it, giving me all the info, answering all my questions, telling me he will do whatever it takes to get us back to where I thought we were earlier this year. He swears it will never happen again. And he knows this is his last chance.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

PamJ said:


> "Why?", is the one question I cannot come to grips with about my H's last EA/Internet affair when we were still in R from the one a year prior, or so I thought. He isn't sure himself. It changes from, "I was curious, I thought we could just be friends", etc. He can't believe he did this again and hurt me again.
> 
> He does seem sincere this time and he is doing everything right about it, giving me all the info, answering all my questions, telling me he will do whatever it takes to get us back to where I thought we were earlier this year. He swears it will never happen again. And he knows this is his last chance.


It takes a lot of reflection, IMO, for a wayward to truly look into the abyss knows as "why". It's scary. Heck, scares the crap right outta them. Which is why they waffle at times with an answer.

Sorry you're here with all of us, but I'm glad that you have stood your ground for him to know this is his last chance!


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

I don't know. Were all born with a brain and the ability to think, reason and to know right from wrong, good from bad. They waited a month to kiss and two months before they had sex, then waited another month before they had sex again. With all that time, I can't understand how she didn't come to know that what she was doing was wrong. 
All she had to do was look down on her ring finger and see her wedding band. With all the time in between the kiss and the sex, she could have come to her senses and realized that what she was doing was wrong and broke it off before it got out of hand. I guess some people only think of themselves and then after their caught, they finally know that they did wrong, but at whose expense? Yours and then they want to repent. Well he!!, the damage is already done. I feel for you and hope you can make the right choice...........but remember, the choice you make is the one that you have to live with.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

crazyace said:


> So when she was doing this, what was her idea,
> 1. that she can be with you as a wife and continue with her affair ?
> 2. She can get her luxuries from you but give her love and her self to OM?
> 3. What about the time when she was doing him and coming home and then getting in your arms saying 'I Love you' ... and might be thinking "I just need to keep up with this act" ??
> ...


crazyace, those were some good posts. Also TCSRedhead.

My guess is that this guy did nothing but build her up, compliment her, tell her how great she was. There may or may not have been any physical attraction to begin with, but whatever there was got stronger as this guy pushed all the right buttons. He was ALWAYS available. He NEEDED her. It was NEW and EXCITING, like all new love relationships are.

Add in some resentment for you, for NOT being a mind reader, for NOT being able to tell something was wrong, like a true soulmate would, heck for not EVEN asking IF something was wrong, for not doing your share with the housework, with the kids, with whatever. For not giving her what she needed, even though she never told you.

So the relationship with other guy continues to blossom, eventually she decides to take the plunge and goes for it. She replaces you with him in the romance department. This didn't happen overnight, it took awhile, but once she thought of him that way, HE became what she WANTED in her future. She LOVED him, she really wasn't thinking all that far in the future, like any junkie, she was just always looking forward to her next fix, probably telling herself this has to end but never being able to actually end it. Or maybe she had no thoughts of ending it and had a glimmer of hope that somehow, before too long, this guy might start getting himself going and turn his life around. She didn't want to hurt you, she felt bad lying to you, but she could not give him up.

I don't buy her story that she never thought of replacing you with him. I think she did, but it was just so far in the future and she had no clear plan as to how they could get there, but she was willing to hang in with him until he, or she, or they, somehow could. In her mind, somehow they would be together, someday, because they were soulmates.

From what I've seen here and in my life experience is that many of these affairs are like high school - the same way you thought you would be with your first girlfriend forever, didn't see any of her faults, thought you would be together forever, yet never really gave much thought as to HOW it all would work out - and of course for most of us, it never did actually all work out. A lot of cheaters even tell the betrayed spouse during the affair things like, "you're not my father (or mother), you can't tell me who I can be friends with, you can't tell me what to do," just like you might hear from a teenager.

Looking back now, maybe she feels like a fool. I think when they are out of the affair for a while, they can start to see how unrealistic it all was. It definitley will be hard for her to admit to you, as much as she's hurt you already, if she actually had imagined a life together with other man.

Anyway, that's my take on your situation. You won't be able to reason it away, it makes no sense to a normal reasoning adult. There is no adult logic to it, just like there is often no adult logic in teenage love relationships.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Will Kane hit a lot of points that I think describe many if not most affairs - certainly I see a lot of my WW in there. What she did boiled down to selfishness in my eyes: It was a fantasy based upon a lie with a heaping pile of lies served on top.

In her eyes, at the time, she was with a guy who seemed genuinely interested in her, and they only saw the best parts of each other because they hadn't got deep enough to discover (or care about) each others' flaws. They had no work, no responsibilities, no worries... it was just two new best friends and "lovers" having fun whenever they were together. She said when she was with me she felt horrible for what she was doing, but as soon as she left the house and went with him, she never even thought about it. The real consequences of what she was doing were out of sight and mind, and if they ever hit her, she could rationalize them away (e.g. "I'm making myself happy to make Cabsy happy").

It's ironic, because I was the one who had been unhappy with the status of our relationship for many years, and I had tried to carry the relationship on my back despite her many issues and reluctance to work on anything. She felt she was perfect, and it seemed to take this huge mistake on her part to make her realize that she was not. She's in counseling now and is much closer to being the woman I fell in love with 13 years ago... rather than the depressed, angry, anxiety-ridden cheater I despised a few short months ago.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Someone said earlier---YOU AFFAIR PROOF THE MGE---How do you do that??????

Do you re-program the cheaters brain---do you lock them in a tower--------life goes on, and the same situations that caused the problem in the 1st place---WILL RETURN----so how do you affair proof the mge?????

Yes, you have a spouse that is allegedly doing all the right things, but what do you really have---either the betrayed gave in immediately, and rug swept----or---the betrayed---had to threaten D---to FORCE, and I do mean FORCE, the cheater, back into the mge----BUT NONE OF THIS REALLY MEANS THE AP---IS GONE

Where are you really at---who knows--for whatever the reason, and there are myriad reasons---you, the spouse have been replaced----and if that is the case----CAN IT EVER BE THE SAME----brings the next question---why did the cheater come back to the mge----It can't be for love----and do they really want to be with their spouse-------or are they staying cuz it is the safest/easiest/financially proper thing to do----CAN IT REALLY BE FOR LOVE

Everyone says---no it is a NEW DAY------I don't think so---its the same old cast, and the same old play, yes we had some re-writing to the script---but, bottom line its the same old play---except its not is it---you have a destroyed betrayed spouse, who IMHO---never will forget---and I hear so many times it gets better, it gets easier, it can be handled---but is that really true----I just don't think it never leaves the mind of the betrayed----the visions, of what was done to them---BY THE ONE PERSON IN ALL THIS WORLD---THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE THEIR BACK---

What do you have as far as the cheater goes----For whatever reason---and maybe there are some mental breakdown excuses---BUT THERE CAN BE NO OTHER EXCUSES FOR CHEATING---so what do you really have-------can this cheater really love their betrayed-------they had no problem whatsoever destroying them---AND YOU BETTER BELIEVE EVERY CHEATER ON THIS PLANET KNOWS THE CONSEQUENCES OF CHEATING----AND THEY KNOW THE CONSEQUENCES FROM A VERY EARLY AGE---they see it on TV, in the movies, hear it in music---see it in their FOO-----see it in their friends lives------read about it----IT IS EVERYWHERE----------they know the damage they are gonna do---yet they do it----------where is their love--- everyone states the cheater is selfish-------but aren't you spose to consider the vows you took

I understand people fall out of love, and lives change---but for that D, is the answer---not DESTRUCTION OF THEIR SPOUSE, AND KIDS

As to the fog---I have my doubts about that also----when someone allegedly is in a fog---they supposedly don't know what they are doing---but yet they still carry on their day-to-day life, and things are completely normal---in fact they carry on their life SO WELL----most betrayeds NEVER FIND OUT---so now will you throw compartmentalization at me.----Is that your answer to the fog???????

I don't understand, how do you Affair Proof any relationship?????????????????


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## crazyace (Aug 20, 2012)

Cabsy said:


> Will Kane hit a lot of points that I think describe many if not most affairs - certainly I see a lot of my WW in there. What she did boiled down to selfishness in my eyes: It was a fantasy based upon a lie with a heaping pile of lies served on top.
> 
> In her eyes, at the time, she was with a guy who seemed genuinely interested in her, and they only saw the best parts of each other because they hadn't got deep enough to discover (or care about) each others' flaws. They had no work, no responsibilities, no worries... it was just two new best friends and "lovers" having fun whenever they were together. She said when she was with me she felt horrible for what she was doing, but as soon as she left the house and went with him, she never even thought about it. The real consequences of what she was doing were out of sight and mind, and if they ever hit her, she could rationalize them away (e.g. "I'm making myself happy to make Cabsy happy").
> 
> It's ironic, because I was the one who had been unhappy with the status of our relationship for many years, and I had tried to carry the relationship on my back despite her many issues and reluctance to work on anything. She felt she was perfect, and it seemed to take this huge mistake on her part to make her realize that she was not. She's in counseling now and is much closer to being the woman I fell in love with 13 years ago... rather than the depressed, angry, anxiety-ridden cheater I despised a few short months ago.


According to wat Dday explains as her side of story, what I only understand is this :
1. She was infatuated/attracted by his closeness and his availablity around her.
2. She talked and he listened and may be made her laugh too.
3. She talked with him about things outside her marriage which seemed fresh topics
4. Her infatuation kept building up, they kissed and infatuation increased. She waited for it to decrease but it didn't
5. She decided to take the plunge since she was enjoying it. And the attraction increased...
6. all resent talks and build up was only after she developed an attraction to him. This resentment was her passport to infidelity
7. She knew if she gets caught he could use this reason and her husband would not kick her out
I say this all because her comment of him being a better lover and her having an greater emotional connection with him still revolves in my mind....
One more question, how does you wife behave now ? what does talk about the OM as ? Does she still care about him, does she still say that she loves him ?


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

crazyace said:


> According to wat Dday explains as her side of story, what I only understand is this :
> 1. She was infatuated/attracted by his closeness and his availablity around her.
> 2. She talked and he listened and may be made her laugh too.
> 3. She talked with him about things outside her marriage which seemed fresh topics
> ...


This makes sense. In my WW's case, the OM and she shared a common problem that I couldn't identify with, opiate addiction for nurses. I'm sure the conversations started that way, then got more personal. The line became blurred, and eventually the boundary was crossed. I'm sure he paid her compliments, made her feel desired. Life at home was rocky, and her esteem tanked as she prepared to turn 35, and had put on weight. So, she responded to these things from him. The fact that she was being unthinkably selfish, coupled with her nature of avoiding conflicts and self destructive tendencies lead her to make a possibly fatal (to our marriage) mistake. 

I've asked her for more info, but she's a wreck right now. This is my theory, admittedly. I will get the answer out of her, once we both have time to deal with our new reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dday (Mar 31, 2013)

crazyace said:


> According to wat Dday explains as her side of story, what I only understand is this :
> 1. She was infatuated/attracted by his closeness and his availablity around her.
> 2. She talked and he listened and may be made her laugh too.
> 3. She talked with him about things outside her marriage which seemed fresh topics
> ...


1. Agree 
2. Agree
3. Agree and talked about our marraige
4. Agree
5. I think 6 came before 5 but I agree
6. Agree, although we didn't argue much but she would complain about the smallest details. I thought it was just stress of 3 kids in 5 years but she was really trying to find reasons to hate me
7. I don't think she thought about getting caught. She certainly didn't expect me to stay with her

We have been really good, she has not been resentful in the least but but grateful for a 2nd and last chance. 

She doesn't even like saying his name or what she did. I will bring it up but she doesn't say "we had sex" instead it will be "we did what we did" or just answer yes/no to my questions. 

I don't think she loves him, as she hasn't been showing many signs of withdrawal but she does care about him. In the beginning I was trying to show all of his flaws and she would almost defend him, now it seems she realizes what a mistake he was and how close he got to ruining our family. It may take some time but every time she thinks if him I hope that's what she thinks about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

TCSRedhead said:


> I'm glad you're having those conversations. Be careful not to allow any of it to become the JUSTIFICATION. If you feel yourself start to get angry or defensive, table the conversation for later when you can both be less emotional.
> 
> This is for understanding what was happening at that time so you can both work towards building road blocks to prevent going there again.
> 
> ...


We don't consider anything justification, it's more about searching for where our relationship broke down to the point where another man was able to drive a wedge in between us.. Why she wasn't strong enough at that time to realize she was disrespecting her husband, her family, and most important, herself. When she started telling truths I found out it was a 5 year affair like Digs situation... 

It's difficult to ask questions or bring things up without feeling like I'm beating her up.. and then when the answer is one you don't want to hear, something you know you'll have a hard time letting go of.. or that creates terrible visuals in your mind, you almost wonder why you needed to know, but if you didn't ask, you can't let go of it... I know some of you are probably thinking "why do you care if you beat her up, she beat you up for half a decade and didn't care".... well, because I feel she wouldn't have gone there if she wasn't a broken person, and I feel that since I'm the man who's always been there for her, and I love her dearly, that I need to pick up the pieces and fix her.. Partly because I care for her so much and it hurts me to see her hurt, and partly because I'm afraid if I don't hurry up and fix her, she'll cheat on me again. I know in my heart, that's not how it works.. that it was a long process, the whole EA to PA thing.. years of friendship etc.. but logic doesn't always beat out pain, love and fear...

Everyone keeps telling me I need to take care of myself.. it's difficult when so much of 'myself' was my relationship with my wife (been together since 1981 when we were 16 and 17), and my pride in our family and marriage.. when that was destroyed, part of me was destroyed. I feel I need to heal my marriage and my family to heal me.

It's been a month now, and I'm still crushed.. I still can't watch TV (can't pay attention).. I often find myself saying "what was I doing?".... I cry quite a bit, and feel so depressed.. MC makes me feel a little better, but that wears off in a day or so afterwards... Part of me wants to be happy that I ended her affair, but part of me can't believe I was so blind to let it go on for so long ignoring so many signs due to my blind trust and false sense of security... It's also difficult to take that I had to end it, that it would still be going on if I didn't follow her to that coffee shop.

My birthday is tomorrow... First one in half a decade where my wife won't be thinking about how and when she can lie to me to sneak out to be with someone else. I suppose that's an okay gift.


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

russell28 said:


> We don't consider anything justification, it's more about searching for where our relationship broke down to the point where another man was able to drive a wedge in between us.. Why she wasn't strong enough at that time to realize she was disrespecting her husband, her family, and most important, herself. When she started telling truths I found out it was a 5 year affair like Digs situation...
> 
> It's difficult to ask questions or bring things up without feeling like I'm beating her up.. and then when the answer is one you don't want to hear, something you know you'll have a hard time letting go of.. or that creates terrible visuals in your mind, you almost wonder why you needed to know, but if you didn't ask, you can't let go of it... I know some of you are probably thinking "why do you care if you beat her up, she beat you up for half a decade and didn't care".... well, because I feel she wouldn't have gone there if she wasn't a broken person, and I feel that since I'm the man who's always been there for her, and I love her dearly, that I need to pick up the pieces and fix her.. Partly because I care for her so much and it hurts me to see her hurt, and partly because I'm afraid if I don't hurry up and fix her, she'll cheat on me again. I know in my heart, that's not how it works.. that it was a long process, the whole EA to PA thing.. years of friendship etc.. but logic doesn't always beat out pain, love and fear...
> 
> ...


I know that feeling. Our situations are very different, but it's hard to talk about this stuff with her. I don't start a conversation intending to go on the offensive, but when I sense pushback, I just get blood thirsty. It's all so fresh right now. I'm very sorry to hear that this was a long term thing for you two. I hope you find some peace, and that everything works out for the best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

jnj express said:


> Someone said earlier---YOU AFFAIR PROOF THE MGE---How do you do that??????
> 
> Do you re-program the cheaters brain---do you lock them in a tower--------life goes on, and the same situations that caused the problem in the 1st place---WILL RETURN----so how do you affair proof the mge?????
> 
> ...


See bolded... In my wife's situation, her grandmother who she loved dearly, was a cold woman who had a 'boyfriend' her entire life.. this man had a wife, she made it known that he was the 'love of her life' as she called him, even though the love of HIS life was his wife it appears, since he never left her... Her mother left her father for a boyfriend in work, she's still with him.. She dated him for a couple years before the husband found out. Her closest friend growing up was her aunt, who had a boyfriend.. Bob.. Bob would even come to our cookouts, it was okay that he was cheating on his wife because, as they let everyone know.. 'his wife has that disease where she won't leave the house'.... Oh, so that's okay then for him to ignore her illness and go f some other woman.. Excellent... So in her mind, an affair was an option as taught by her elders.. and in her mothers case, it worked out good.. she's still with the guy. None of this justifies an affair, but it helps me understand the 'how'.

TV and movies.. I'm guessing not all of them paint affairs in a negative light. I know that TV News (gossip) shows us that in Hollywood, it's normal to cheat.. Look at that girl from the Twilight movies, she cheated on that guy who sparkled.. I mean c'mon, I'm not even gay and I wouldn't cheat on that guy....


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

russell28 said:


> My birthday is tomorrow... First one in half a decade where my wife won't be thinking about how and when she can lie to me to sneak out to be with someone else. I suppose that's an okay gift.


I know that hurts, buddy. You're not alone. I'm going to give you fair warning though, so it doesn't hit you out of the blue or make you feel like you're crazy: The first year you will cross dates on the calendar and you will wonder just as you did in the quote above. It's okay to have those feelings. I suggest that whenever you feel those things creeping into your head, that you make sure to share how you're feeling with your wife. She doesn't _need_ to say anything except give you comfort.

This sh-t sucks. There is no way around that.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

russell28 said:


> When she started telling truths I found out it was a 5 year affair like Digs situation...


Wow!! Sorry man.. Cannot imagine the pain you must be going through.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

russell28 said:


> See bolded... In my wife's situation, her grandmother who she loved dearly, was a cold woman who had a 'boyfriend' her entire life.. this man had a wife, she made it known that he was the 'love of her life' as she called him, even though the love of HIS life was his wife it appears, since he never left her... Her mother left her father for a boyfriend in work, she's still with him.. She dated him for a couple years before the husband found out. Her closest friend growing up was her aunt, who had a boyfriend.. Bob.. Bob would even come to our cookouts, it was okay that he was cheating on his wife because, as they let everyone know.. 'his wife has that disease where she won't leave the house'.... Oh, so that's okay then for him to ignore her illness and go f some other woman.. Excellent... So in her mind, an affair was an option as taught by her elders.. and in her mothers case, it worked out good.. she's still with the guy. None of this justifies an affair, but it helps me understand the 'how'.


Do the kids know about her affair ?


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

jnj - no one is saying that the reasons the WS cheated JUSTIFY the cheating but in order to fix what is broken, you need to diagnose it. This means total and complete honesty about everything. It's not blaming the BS nor excusing the WS but it is about understanding what they were both feeling, thinking leading up to this and during this.

I can't say that I was justified in cheating - there is no such thing. I can help my husband understand what had I had been thinking and feeling. 

As for affair-proofing, I don't believe there's any such thing but I do think if you have regular conversations about where you're both at in the relationship, what your fears, worries, resentments, concerns and really address those, it reduces the likelihood.

Marriage takes effort and work from both partners to succeed, with or without infidelity. Many of us forgot that part and lost the way. I can honestly say that we had both really checked out of our marriage in many ways. 

I am eternally grateful for my husband, his love and his patience in working through this. It hasn't been easy nor always pretty but I focus on making it work every day.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

TCSRedhead said:


> As for affair-proofing, I don't believe there's any such thing but I do think...


You can make your marriage as atractive as you can, cheating as ugly as you can. You can set up and agree the boundaries you choose.
It won't affair proof anything.
What you can do is affair proof yourself, nothing, noone else.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

That's better stated than I could have done, Acabado.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> Do the kids know about her affair ?


They do, probably more than they need to know...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Dday,

Does your wife have any addictions? Does she feel emotional cut off, not just from you but from the world?


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## Dday (Mar 31, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Dday,
> 
> Does your wife have any addictions? Does she feel emotional cut off, not just from you but from the world?


Sorry, been away from the boards for a little bit. 

No she doesn't have any addictions and we/she have plenty of close friends. She does drink on weekends but wouldn't say she is an alcoholic or anything. As far as drugs go she has never done anything, never even smoked a cigarette.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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