# Let's Talk About Porn



## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

How do you define what point, if any, does it becomes unacceptable? What point is it ok?

For those who do not take issue with porn, would you mind describing your relationship in general? Good? Bad? 

Does your relationship quality influence your perceptions about porn use? (For users and spouses).

Why and/or why not?

How do you feel about porn that depicts abuse towards women? Slapping/choking, etc. (I find it highly disturbing).

Lastly, can porn use actually lead to abuse and even infidelity?


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

Tried to edit the above post to include these questions, but I kept getting an error message...

How do feel about your spouse watching a same sex encounter?

Acts with animals? (If you have animals in the home does this mean they are at risk)?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Sex acts with animals, divorce. Yes, it means a line involving "consent" has been crossed.
Sex acts with children, divorce. Same as above.
Snuff porn, I might have to kill him myself!
Anything else is a matter of personal taste and not my concern. BDSM and nonconsenting porn is consensual contrary to what the images portray.

Porn becomes a problem when it's use interferes with sexual intimacy with a WILLING spouse.

Yes and no my relationship does affect how I view porn use but my view of porn is more affected by my relationship with myself and my sexuality.

ETA: problematic porn use can lead to infidelity but not abuse.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Do we really need to talk about it _again_? Let's just watch some, instead!


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

I was hoping for actual answers to my questions to get a feel for what is generally ok in marriage.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*I like the definition as provided by the 1964 SCOTUS commentary by Justice Potter Stewart when he issued his often quoted dictum in Jacobellis v. Ohio, greatly to the effect of "I cannot offer up a definition of pornograghy, but I know it when I see it!"*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

Anon - Thank you for your reply.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Who cares what is "generally" ok? What is ok between spouses should be what is important.

For ME, I chose to get over my hang up once he patiently explained what it was and was not for him. He was also 100% straight up and told me that he could not and would not promise to never, ever use it for release again as that would be lying.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> How do you define what point, if any, does it becomes unacceptable? What point is it ok?
> 
> I think it is a problem when it interferes with real life and real relationships.


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

Is there a way to make this a pole, maybe?


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> Is there a way to make this a pole, maybe?


I sure hope that was a Freudian slip


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> How do you define what point, if any, does it becomes unacceptable? What point is it ok?
> 
> For those who do not take issue with porn, would you mind describing your relationship in general? Good? Bad?
> 
> ...


It seems to me that porn is a bit like alcohol or marijuana. Some people grow dependent to it while most people can either enjoy it occasionally in moderation or don't understand why anyone is attracted to it. For me, it is ok about once per month. 

My marriage is stable, but my wife is LD. She doesn't have strong feelings about porn, either positive or negative. Like you, I also find porn that depicts physical abuse towards women to be highly disturbing. 

For most people, porn would not likely lead to abuse or infidelity. However, I'm sure that we could find some cases in which it probably did contribute.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Everything,

You can do a survey, however TAM is a self selected group, not a random group so any statistics are highly suspect. 

If you don't mind a gentle observation. 

There are a few key factors that most folks consider when addressing this topic: 
1. Was this directly and firmly addressed prior to marriage? There are a small percentage of folks who consider porn use to be a type of cheating. Those people have a responsibility to speak up early and often before getting engaged. 

2. Is the porn use directly impacting the person who doesn't watch it? The most common examples are:
- The porn watcher gets addicted, and loses interest in sex with their spouse. They pour all of their sexual energy into porn. 
- The porn watcher starts pressuring their spouse to perform sex acts that - the non porn watcher doesn't enjoy/dislikes. 

3. Generally the two extreme scenarios look like this:
- The non watcher doesn't care for sex, but is outraged that their partner uses porn as an outlet for their sexual frustrations.
- The non watcher likes sex, but their porn addicted partner is ignoring them.

To my knowledge there are no studies showing a correlation between porn use and cheating or abuse. 




EverythingU.RNot said:


> Is there a way to make this a pole, maybe?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

> 1. How do you define what point, if any, does it becomes unacceptable? What point is it ok?
> 
> 2. For those who do not take issue with porn, would you mind describing your relationship in general? Good? Bad?
> 
> ...


Okay, I'll answer your questions.

1. It becomes unacceptable if it interferes with our sex life in any significant way or crosses the line of legality. Until then, it's okay. I've never watched much porn, even when I was in a sexless marriage. I have even less reason now.

2. No issues with it, and we have a fantastic, highly compatible HD-HD relationship.

3. Not presently, ...

4. ... but if we developed issues with sexual frequency or quality, I suppose increasing porn use could easily become an area of contention.

5. That has zero appeal to me, but if it floats your boat, enjoy. If your spouse objects, then it's time to discuss or negotiate what's okay in your relationship. Some people (and that includes women, in case you have any doubts) enjoy BDSM in reality as well as fantasy, after all. I think watching the Food Network could pose a seriously higher relationship risk.

6. I suppose in some dysfunctional or mentally ill people, it's possible, but for any relatively sane or "normal" person, I doubt it very much. If anything, I'd think watching porn would alleviate the urge to cross those lines - it's a pressure release mechanism.

7. I really wouldn't care. Neither of us has that interest anyway, but even if we did, it's still not a problem. Whatever revs your engine ... I'll meet you in the bedroom.

8. I'd draw the line at anything illegal, and those lines are (these days) usually there for good reasons, IMO. And I seriously doubt watching such would put Spot at risk. It's probably more a matter of curiosity or having heard of some historical character who did, and wondering WTF that was about. The ick factor kills any curiosity, IMO.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> How do you define what point, if any, does it becomes unacceptable? What point is it ok?


Never had to go there, so I don't really know.



> For those who do not take issue with porn, would you mind describing your relationship in general? Good? Bad?


terrific!



> Does your relationship quality influence your perceptions about porn use? (For users and spouses).
> 
> Why and/or why not?


I don't really know. I know that what I used to think it meant to him, or what I thought it meant about his feelings for me, were untrue. 



> How do you feel about porn that depicts abuse towards women? Slapping/choking, etc. (I find it highly disturbing).


Yuck!



> Lastly, can porn use actually lead to abuse and even infidelity?


I don't believe in slippery slopes. Unless we are talking ski slopes.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I am OK with all porn except:

Actual non-consent (play-rape is fine). That is where the actors were coerced, forced, threatened, economically forced, secretly filmed, underage, insane, mentally disabled etc etc. Basically if you are showing an actual rape or molestation it is right out.

Someone asked about animals. The above applies as well. If animals could consent, then it would be OK, but I don't want to try to figure out if they are, so the assumption is that is abusive.


I want faked porn to carry warning labels - if acts are shown that would be harmful if done as shown, I want a warning for the less educated viewers.


I think porn can hurt relationships, but that it doesn't always (or even the majority of the time) do so. I use the alcohol analogy - drinking in moderation is fine. Becoming an alcoholic is not. I think some people can watch a little porn, even extreme porn without in any way hurting their relationship. Others become addicted or can't separate fantasy from reality enough to know what is and isn't appropriate in a real relationship.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> How do you define what point, if any, does it becomes unacceptable? What point is it ok?
> 
> For those who do not take issue with porn, would you mind describing your relationship in general? Good? Bad?
> 
> ...



I'm no innocent peach so here goes.

Day one Mrs.CuddleBug and I dated and then got married (total 17 years now) I had a high adventurous sex drive HD. I talked to her about it numerous times and not much if anything changed on her part because she is LD conservative.

When I get really in the mood, I sometimes view porn and get it out of my system.

I don't view porn because I don't want sex with Mrs.CuddleBug. I sometimes view porn because I love all varieties of ladies and I'm going stir crazy from the lack of sex.

If Mrs.CuddleBug got a healthy adventurous sex drive, at least 3x week, every week at minimum, my desire for porn is zero. In fact, I forget about porn altogether and I'm happy being with Mrs.CuddleBug.

I'd rather take the lesser of evils than go out and meet ladies who just want a friend with many benefits. I had that opportunity some years ago.

The porn I occasionally view is women and everything with women. Nothing violent, nothing nasty and they're all adult ages, 25+ years old I'd say.

This doesn't make me do crazy nasty things with Mrs.CuddleBug at all. It just gets it out of my system so I'm not going stir crazy and do something really stupid.

If a woman takes care of her man sexually, fun and adventurous, porn shouldn't be needed ever.

This comes from sexual mismatches. HD + LD situations.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

I would post, but i totally agree with everything @CuddleBug just said. No need to write it all out again and change the names .
Mr.68 and i have been married almost 8 years, and i would be masturbation/porn free at probably 2x a week, although i would probably have sex every day if he were up for it. I don't always or even usually use porn, but after a few consecutive sexless weeks, my own hand just doesn't do it for me anymore. And everything i watch is pretty standard fare.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> How do you define what point, if any, does it becomes unacceptable? What point is it ok?
> 
> Porn becomes unacceptable when it interferes with the relationship.
> 
> ...





EverythingU.RNot said:


> Tried to edit the above post to include these questions, but I kept getting an error message...
> 
> How do feel about your spouse watching a same sex encounter?
> Depends on the same sex encounter. If it's hot, why would I have a problem with it? If it's badly acted, boring, or featured unattractive performers, I'd ask him to find something better!
> ...


I am not ok with bestiality. I'm not ok with anything that involves participants that cannot give informed consent. Would I worry that about pet safety? No. Anyone into that kind of porn would not be part of my life. 

Do people who enjoy bestiality porn molest animals? I'm sure some do and the rest don't and never would. But that's something I wouldn't risk.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

No matter where it is used and for what purposes, porn is always bad and leaves a scar in a relationship. It's best if it's mutually agreed that it's not acceptable.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Sex acts with animals, divorce. Yes, it means a line involving "consent" has been crossed.
> Sex acts with children, divorce. Same as above.
> Snuff porn, I might have to kill him myself!
> Anything else is a matter of personal taste and not my concern. BDSM and nonconsenting porn is consensual contrary to what the images portray.
> ...


Sorry, AP but I must disagree. Infidelity in and of itself is abusive to the spouse. Even if problematic porn use doesn't lead to infidelity it's usage can still be abusive to the spouse i.e. undermining her self-confidence. Her husband may as well come out and tell her she is ugly because that is the effect that the over-imbibing of porn tells her.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> No matter where it is used and for what purposes, porn is always bad and leaves a scar in a relationship. It's best if it's mutually agreed that it's not acceptable.


Can't argue with an absolute. Case closed, I guess.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> *How do you define what point, if any, does it becomes unacceptable? What point is it ok?*


 *Unacceptable* : at any point my husband is glued gawking at a computer screen over playing with me, a willing ready desirous partner at his beck & call../ when a







becomes his fantasy over me -if I would feel this in the smallest way - it would sting.. it would play on my mind...how he treats me has not allowed this in...

He is very tame in his porn tastes.. he only looks at still photos , some may even call it "art"... 



> *For those who do not take issue with porn, would you mind describing your relationship in general? Good? Bad?*


 We are very affectionate, a "do everything together" type couple.. ..intimacy means the world to both of us... I might add.. we are both very sensitive here....if a fork was put into our connection in the smallest way....we'd feel it like the Princess felt a Pea in her bed... 

It's something we feel the same about...being there for each other is just that important... we take the scriptures that "his body is mine.. and mine is his".. if one of us is in need.. we want to do all we can. (not a christian anymore.. but I do appreciate that verse, it resonates to how we feel)..

I used to take issue with Porn (sometimes, I probably wasn't even consistent, on the one hand "boys will be boys".. on the other.. I was supposed to be a christian.. and was taught PORN is BAD, against God, EVIL... the 1st sermon we sat under when we started Church after our son was born 20+ yrs ago ....the Pastor spoke of his delivery from Pornography.. 

So when I found my husband looking in the morning before work sometimes....half of me was hurt.. ..asking .....am I not enough?? .....I cried a time or two, this hurt him.. he was ashamed. ..... but also I was thinking of his dishonoring God..this upset me too. 

In reality... he never denied me.... very loving giving husband..... if anything.. I was the one not meeting his needs ...had I been a better wife here, happily taking care of him in the am... he wouldn't have been looking at a computer screen but been under the covers with me!! (Regrets here)... 

Then the tables turned.. and I became Awakened to enjoying porn, I rented every "loving sex" -instructional video I could... real people, how to spice things up, etc ...it was a lot of FUN...getting us to try new things, ideas, some novelty.. and what soft porn I could find.. this was purely hit or miss.. 



> *Does your relationship quality influence your perceptions about porn use? (For users and spouses)*.


 One assumes if one is enjoying porn they are automatically masturbating....this is probably true for most.. it's a little different with us... we save every release for each other.. we just enjoy the visual stimulation... we may only put it on 2 times a month for example...sometimes I might in the wee hours of the night -while he is sleeping, get hot -then wake him up...



> *How do you feel about porn that depicts abuse towards women? Slapping/choking, etc. (I find it highly disturbing*).


 My husband is a gentleman, he can't even watch a rape scene in an R-rated movie.. he said to me one time.. that makes him want to kill someone... Him & I both would find slapping/ chocking terribly disturbing.. we'd eject immediately & have to recover our interest as that would be a TURN OFF...it's not something we'd ever understand how /why anyone gets something out of that.. 

He would even think cumming on a woman's face is degrading.. he'd never do that to me.. 



> *Lastly, can porn use actually lead to abuse and even infidelity?*


 there are many dysfunctional minds out there.. what we put in can influence our behaviors, our attitudes, I would think other things are at Play outside of the porn though.. most can separate what is on the screen.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I'd say that porn has effected sexual relationships in a bad way. My impression is that porn influences the things men want sexually and the way they want it. Take bj for instance. The usual practice is that the woman gives them from a cold start, acts aroused and enthusiastic. That's porn. 

In real life - if she actually becomes aroused, she needs to deal with it without complaint. Plus as a reward for her generosity, she accepts, what might be for her, an unpleasant ending. If not, she may face graceless frustration, anger and dissatisfaction from the man who accepted her gift. 

The way it should be, IMO - arousal, oral sex for her, then oral sex for him. I would have a hard time giving a bj cold. I can and do when I am in the mood. I can't swallow when I start cold though, no problem when I'm aroused. I cannot do 69, it's too distracting. Besides, why do oral sex simultaneously?? Doesn't make sense, double the fun and do her and then him. 

I think that partners should be careful how they use the ideas from porn. It seems better to use them as a starting point with adjustments for mutually satisfaction. I think it's important in a longterm relationship to avoid doing sex acts before a warm up, inducing sexual frustration or acting what you don't feel.


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Who cares what is "generally" ok? What is ok between spouses should be what is important.


I do. I know it is entirely subjective for each person, including myself. I know that my feelings and opinions are not likely to change, but it never hurts to ask others and get some outside perspective.



NobodySpecial said:


> For ME, I chose to get over my hang up once he patiently explained what it was and was not for him. He was also 100% straight up and told me that he could not and would not promise to never, ever use it for release again as that would be lying.


You are fortunate to have someone so transparent.... I truly envy you. I'd much, much rather someone be honest and upfront than tell me everything I want to hear, agree with everything I feel and then sneak around behind my back and lie about it. In fact, I'd really respect a man (or woman) who was confident enough to say what your husband told you... 



MEM11363 said:


> Everything,
> 
> You can do a survey, however TAM is a self selected group, not a random group so any statistics are highly suspect.


True, and I am aware that many of us come here to talk about issues, and not about 'perfect' marriages without problems... But this issue (or non-issue) is so widespread that everyone has an experience with it. (Also why I included pointed questions relating to the overall marriage health, so I can determine, in a non-scientific manner, whether porn acceptance is generally due to an already satisfying marriage or not...) My theory is it IS related for at least some, if not most people...

But an excellent observation I would have much appreciated if I hadn't already considered it. Well I do appreciate it, but I'm sure you know what I mean. 




MEM11363 said:


> 1. Was this directly and firmly addressed prior to marriage? ... Those people have a responsibility to speak up early and often before getting engaged.


Absolutely agree. For users as well... This is not something that should be obscured or omitted from someone you KNOW would take issue. In my case it was made Crystal clear before DATING. (Hey, why waste time, right)? lol




MEM11363 said:


> 2. Is the porn use directly impacting the person who doesn't watch it? The most common examples are:
> - The porn watcher gets addicted, and loses interest in sex with their spouse. They pour all of their sexual energy into porn.
> - The porn watcher starts pressuring their spouse to perform sex acts that - the non porn watcher doesn't enjoy/dislikes.


Yes.




MEM11363 said:


> 3. Generally the two extreme scenarios look like this:
> - The non watcher doesn't care for sex, but is outraged that their partner uses porn as an outlet for their sexual frustrations.
> - The non watcher likes sex, but their porn addicted partner is ignoring them.


I DEFINITELY feel ignored, that's for sure. I also know FOR A FACT, that on multiple occasions he has rejected sex with me IN FAVOR of solo action, and premeditated this.



Cuddlebug said:


> If a woman takes care of her man sexually, fun and adventurous, porn shouldn't be needed ever. This comes from sexual mismatches. HD + LD situations.


It seems to me this is the general consensus, especially when addressing porn use, that the woman must not be interested in sex, has a low drive, he's suffering with no one to turn to... (Insert dramatic music here, lol)

But it's not ALWAYS the case, unfortunately. 



MJJEAN said:


> Well, if we were having relationship problems, I'd probably not feel very charitably toward porn, especially if I believed that porn use was replacing sex with me or reinforcing ideas that were problematic for some reason. Since our relationship is in good shape, I don't see porn as a threat or usurper or bad influence.


Well explained! Thank you 



MJJEAN said:


> Depends on the same sex encounter. If it's hot, why would I have a problem with it? If it's badly acted, boring, or featured unattractive performers, I'd ask him to find something better!


I apologize if my question seemed homophobic... I am definitely not that way. But it could be relevant if you think your spouse might be in the closet, so to speak....


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> Infidelity in and of itself is abusive to the spouse. Even if problematic porn use doesn't lead to infidelity it's usage can still be abusive to the spouse i.e. undermining her self-confidence. Her husband may as well come out and tell her she is ugly because that is the effect that the over-imbibing of porn tells her.


Thank you. That is exactly how it feels, but I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, either....



Catherine602 said:


> I'd say that porn has effected sexual relationships in a bad way. My impression is that porn has influenced the things men want sexually and the way they want it. Take bj for instance. The usual practice is that the woman gives them from a cold start, but she needs to act as if she is aroused and enthusiastic. That's porn. In real life - if she actually becomes aroused, she needs to deal with it without complaint. Plus as a reward for her generosity, she accepts what might be an unpleasant ending for her. If not, she may face graceless frustration, anger and dissatisfaction from the man who accepted her gift.


Many agreements here. I have seen first hand how these perceptions and tastes change over time. Even my own!


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Catherine602 said:


> I'd say that porn has effected sexual relationships in a bad way. My impression is that porn has influenced the things men want sexually and the way they want it. Take bj for instance. The usual practice is that the woman gives them from a cold start, but she needs to act as if she is aroused and enthusiastic. That's porn.


Porn doesn't just influence what men want sexually. Women are also influenced, too, ya know!

The BJ scenario above? That's not just porn. That happens pretty regularly in reality for a lot of women. If DH asks cold, I can guarantee I will begin to feel mentally and physically aroused before my lips get into position.


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

So, assuming we all have a wide range of personalities and histories, it would *seem* as though the better the relationship, the less likely porn is to be disruptive (for at minimum 3 different factors I can identify immediately, and probably thousands more). It *seems* as though porn is most destructive in an already contentious relationship, and given the chicken-or-the-egg scenario... I'm not going to go there just yet...

Thank you all for your thoughts... In my world I WANT to be the wife who doesn't mind (It is a lot of stress and anxiety and wasted energy) BUT due to MY insecurity, lack of sex (lol) and my husband's dishonesty about this and other areas of life, it has become a monumental issue, when it just began as a minor disgust and a little insecurity.

I do not like how my mind thinks now. Even watching movies with attractive women in them have the potential to trigger me when I was not as affected 5 or 10 years ago.

I'm also getting older and hearing more and more about my appearance as time goes on, and that does not make me feel good about myself....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> You are fortunate to have someone so transparent.... I truly envy you. I'd much, much rather someone be honest and upfront than tell me everything I want to hear, agree with everything I feel and then sneak around behind my back and lie about it. In fact, I'd really respect a man (or woman) who was confident enough to say what your husband told you...
> 
> The sneaking and lying aren't without reason. Do you know why? Does he feel like you'll judge him or be angry with him if he's honest?
> 
> ...


I didn't think of it as homophobic at all! I know some people like same sex scenes in porn and some don't. It's perfectly possible to support gay folks and yet not find watching them have sex to be interesting or a turn on.

I'm not even remotely bisexual. I do appreciate a woman's beauty, the way she carries herself, her feminine power, etc. I'm just not sexually attracted to women.

I can, however, really enjoy a sex scene between two women if they have good chemistry and are really into it. Same with watching a scene with two men together. Even group scenes being hot or not depends on the chemistry of the actors.

I'd imagine there are a lot of men and women like me who enjoy watching scenes based more on the enthusiasm and skill of the actors than any desire to actually do those things themselves.

Mixed deck of well done scenes including some of gay or group sex among actors with skill and chemistry? Wouldn't be a blip on the radar. Now, if my DH weren't sexually interested in me and was jerking it nightly to blowjob or gay porn I'd start to question his sexual preferences. 

Of course, there is always the possibility of being bi. A lot of people just assume a hetero identified married man who watches gay sex scenes must be closeted gay. Truth is, he might simply be a bisexual or bi-curious guy who happened to fall in love with a woman and is in a monogamous marriage where porn is an outlet for his bisexual desires.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MJJEAN said:


> Porn doesn't just influence what men want sexually. Women are also influenced, too, ya know!
> 
> The BJ scenario above? That's not just porn. That happens pretty regularly in reality for a lot of women. If DH asks cold, I can guarantee I will begin to feel mentally and physically aroused before my lips get into position.


Um you made my point, thanks. 

Women are part of the culture too so of course they do what is expected. They rarely do it on a longterm basis and that's the problem. You get aroused, so does your husband take care of you? I am sure many women get aroused like you but do they get sexual satisfaction. Usually not. Most woman are probably are not inclined to grab and go. 

I'm writing about how bj's are usually practiced according to what I have read. I use myself as an example. I don't think I'm an outlier.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> So, assuming we all have a wide range of personalities and histories, it would *seem* as though the better the relationship, the less likely porn is to be disruptive (for at minimum 3 different factors I can identify immediately, and probably thousands more). It *seems* as though porn is most destructive in an already contentious relationship, and given the chicken-or-the-egg scenario... I'm not going to go there just yet...
> 
> Thank you all for your thoughts... In my world I WANT to be the wife who doesn't mind (It is a lot of stress and anxiety and wasted energy) BUT due to MY insecurity, lack of sex (lol) and my husband's dishonesty about this and other areas of life, it has become a monumental issue, when it just began as a minor disgust and a little insecurity.
> 
> ...


Have you talked to him about joining him when he is watching porn? You could watch with him and use porn as a tool. Maybe try things like having him show you his 3 favorite porn scenes and ask him to tell you while you watch it together what he finds hot about it. Ideally, this would lead to you feeling close and aroused and lead to sex both with and without the porn involved.

If you aren't feeling good about your appearance, you aren't confident. Confidence is sexy. Why not change your appearance? Update your look to something that makes you feel fabulous!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> So, assuming we all have a wide range of personalities and histories, it would *seem* as though the better the relationship, the less likely porn is to be disruptive (for at minimum 3 different factors I can identify immediately, and probably thousands more). It *seems* as though porn is most destructive in an already contentious relationship, and given the chicken-or-the-egg scenario... I'm not going to go there just yet...
> 
> Thank you all for your thoughts... In my world I WANT to be the wife who doesn't mind (It is a lot of stress and anxiety and wasted energy) BUT due to MY insecurity, lack of sex (lol) and my husband's dishonesty about this and other areas of life, it has become a monumental issue, when it just began as a minor disgust and a little insecurity.
> 
> ...


Does your husband make comments about your looks? 

You cannot expect to just "not mind". You would have to not mind a porn addiction, sexlessness, deception, and your husbands insensitivity to your feelings. 

I am not dealing with those things so I have room to consider porn my husbands private choice. It does not appear to have an impact on our lives. It has a severe impact on your life. So that different. 

Like alcohol, it's not one size fits all. Porn is not ok in your house so it's not appropriate to try to be ok with an addict. 

Have you gotten to a point where you are willing to leave him if he continues his addiction, if he has and addiction. ( I didn't read your story.)


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> Sorry, AP but I must disagree. Infidelity in and of itself is abusive to the spouse. Even if problematic porn use doesn't lead to infidelity it's usage can still be abusive to the spouse i.e. undermining her self-confidence. Her husband may as well come out and tell her she is ugly because that is the effect that the over-imbibing of porn tells her.


Your logic is a bit flawed here.

If a woman is neurotic about her self image, she could be triggered to feel badly about herself if her husband looked at sports illustrated swimsuit issue or a Victoria's Secret catalogue. It's not the porn or the pics, it's the woman's fragile self esteem and that's on HER to fix, not everyone around her.

To women who feel they don't measure up to women in porn I just want to laugh. Because ...does your H measure up to men in porn? Chances are that's a big fat NO! Does your H ever get upset that you're secretly ogling the hot celeb du jour. Do you turn away from looking at celebrities so that your H's delicate self esteem isn't harmed? Hell no you'd laugh at him! Well I know I would...

I guess I should be glad you think infidelity is itself abusive. That clearly tells me you don't have any personal experience with actual abuse.


----------



## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

Personal said:


> Whatever your proclivities I encourage all to share them early and honestly while being mindful that it's largely a fools errand to try to change someone's mind.


Agreed. I was upfront and honest about where I stood from the get-go; it seems to me as though my husband, for whatever reason, thought he could change me or hide his true self from me indefinitely... I wish he knew how much more this hurts than the actual porn.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

One thing problematic about porn is that it leads to shameful intermarital affairs (not the same as infidelity or an extramarital affair). An intermarital affair is also known as low-risk/high-reward type of behavior in that you can NOT get anyone pregnant or catch STDs, but it can often leave behind the tale tale signs of suspicious towels under the edge of the bed or suspicious charges to the credit card used to purchase novelties such as the following say for people with a vinyl/PVC fetish for giant inflatable octopüssy:










When I got into this I did not realize it would take me an hour to deflate it and pack it up out of sight, so you can only imagine the look on my wife's face when she came home thinking I was planning a surprise birthday party in the living room or something, but then started getting upset when she discovered I was wrestling with this thing naked and all covered in oil. 

Regards,
Badsanta


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"I guess I should be glad you think infidelity is itself abusive. That clearly tells me you don't have any personal experience with actual abuse."

And you think my logic is flawed?

You clearly don't think infidelity is abusive to the spouse. That clearly tells me you've never been cheated on. See how that works?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

1. How do you define what point, if any, does it becomes unacceptable? What point is it ok?

*When porn replaces any part of your relationship with your SO it becomes unacceptable. It is a grey area though, if you have a SO who constantly denies you than I don't have as much an issue, but if you are the one denying but then turning to porn there is a bigger problem. Also, if the use of porn possibly diminishes your interest in sex with your SO, even if you are a willing participant and never deny your SO, I consider it a problem.*

2. For those who do not take issue with porn, would you mind describing your relationship in general? Good? Bad? 

*Mostly good, any issues b/w myself and my spouse revolve more around finding time to spend together due to a young family*

3. Does your relationship quality influence your perceptions about porn use? (For users and spouses).

4. Why and/or why not?

*Yes, when things are going well with my wife I have very little interest in, but when going through sexless periods my interest in porn does increase.*

5. How do you feel about porn that depicts abuse towards women? Slapping/choking, etc. (I find it highly disturbing).

*Personally no interest in, it is up to the 2 people participating in to determine whether or not appropriate though*

6. Lastly, can porn use actually lead to abuse and even infidelity? 

*Yes*

7. How do feel about your spouse watching a same sex encounter?

*Never really thought about it, no issues off the top of my head*

8. Acts with animals? (If you have animals in the home does this mean they are at risk)?

*Flat out disturbing*

9. Some of your favorite movies?

*Mrs. Assfire, Booty and the Beast, Honey I Slept With the Kids, When Harry Ate Sally*


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Um you made my point, thanks.
> 
> Women are part of the culture too so of course they do what is expected. They rarely do it on a longterm basis and that's the problem. You get aroused, so does your husband take care of you? I am sure many women get aroused like you but do they get sexual satisfaction. Usually not.


Definitely not an outlier. Surveys of women show that quite a number expect that sex is supposed to be painful and uncomfortable (for the woman), but her job is to grin and bear it because the guys like it. And people are surprised that the orgasm rates for women remain abysmally low.

And that's my biggest complaint with porn. In iit sex is pretty much all about the man, all the time, and no matter how pained or uncomfortable she looks, she's still putting on this pseudo pleasure moaning and begging for more. Her pleasure doesn't count for anything.

Well that and my SO prefers it over me, and lies to me about that.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

intheory said:


> Cletus,
> 
> Isn't your personal "absolute" that you should have open access to porn as much as you please?


That's a pretty gross reductionist characterization of my position. 



> So, why can't jb have his absolute. He didn't confront or criticize* you*; he stated his own belief and ideal, without involving anyone else.


What he said was "No matter where it is used or for what purposes..."
That was a completely inclusive statement, directed at all couples for all time in all relationships. If an absolute position is hard to argue against, it's even harder to justify. It only takes a single counter-example.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> "I guess I should be glad you think infidelity is itself abusive. That clearly tells me you don't have any personal experience with actual abuse."
> 
> And you think my logic is flawed?
> 
> You clearly don't think infidelity is abusive to the spouse. That clearly tells me you've never been cheated on. See how that works?


Blondilocks, I really don't want to cause you upset but there is a difference between poor treatment and abuse. I'm not minimizing your hurt or anyone else's pain at being cheated on but to call yourself the victim of abuse because your spouse cheated on you is minimizing the pain of those spouses who have to leave the home in secret terrified of being discovered before they get somewhere safe.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> Thank you all for your thoughts... In my world I WANT to be the wife who doesn't mind (It is a lot of stress and anxiety and wasted energy) *BUT due to MY insecurity, lack of sex (lol) and my husband's dishonesty about this and other areas of life, it has become a monumental issue, when it just began as a minor disgust and a little insecurity.*


 These are huge issues.. the lack of sex.. I personally feel when a man goes to a computer screen to get off when he has a willing giving wanting partner, it's like *infidelity* - some may say that's a strong position.. but It's clearly a betrayal of the vows.. to love cherish and care for each others NEEDS.. 

And LYING....on anything .. it's unacceptable and erodes trust.. How do you get your footing again -when someone is just pacifying us with what we want to hear.. it's better to have a drop down , drag out FIGHT.. get it all on the table.. then work it out.. 

Communication is clearly an issue here... why does he LIE ?? what else does he lie about ??

As far as insecurity.. some say how our spouses treat us shouldn't matter.. that's something we have to deal with... but it does [email protected]# *We affect each other !!!* Whether this be good or bad.. :frown2: Had your experience been with an emotionally connected man, you could count on his words, his desire.. I'm going to say.. you'd naturally feel more secure ...

Love yourself.. do you have friends/ family... how do they feel about your situation.. I imagine you've shared some of this. your hardships ..you have to want better for yourself.. . can you leave this man? 

When was the last time you had a heart to heart about these issues ? Has he given you ANYTHING to show he understands your needs and cares , does he even apologize , show he wants to be a better man?



> *I do not like how my mind thinks now. Even watching movies with attractive women in them have the potential to trigger me when I was not as affected 5 or 10 years ago*.


 do you think this is a case of his just not seeing what is right in front of him.. I think he needs a WAKE UP CALL.. Can you tell us what has happened to lead to this place.. it sounds it was good 5 -10 yrs ago.. has resentments been building in the relationship.. hardships that pulled you apart, fights, communication halted, emotions stuffed.. apathy set in.. I'm just rambling asking these questions.. 

Many times something is missing in a relationship, it starts to snowball.. and we try to fill a VOID with something else.. in his case.. it sounds Porn was his vice...is this when the lying began ?? For others, it could be alcohol, gambling, workaholism...every addiction steals something we need and causes pain in it's wake.. 



> *I'm also getting older and hearing more and more about my appearance as time goes on, and that does not make me feel good about myself*....


 We can't help getting older..but there are little things we can do daily to pick us up ...feed our own souls.. do something you love, go out with friends, those who support you, uplift you , surround yourself with people who inspire the good in you.... dress in a way that makes you feel younger... sure it helps tremendously when our husbands show they notice us, throw a compliment our way.. but we're not going to beg...

Screw him right now!.... if you get noticed by some co-workers, someone outside your marriage, a compliment comes your way...... :smile2:.. you are a worthy woman.. 

With this issue, it's so focused on physical appearance, I know.. as another said. your Husband is getting older too, I bet he can't complete with the men in porn either !

I caught this on another thread...maybe misplaced here.. but feeling good about ourselves in MANY WAYS can help.. not just focusing on the physical. 



heartsbeating said:


> For attractive lips, speak words of kindness.
> 
> For lovely eyes, seek out the good in people.
> 
> ...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"Blondilocks, I really don't want to cause you upset..."

Ap, you haven't upset me because (to my knowledge) my husband didn't cheat on me.

The point I was attempting to make is that since you don't know me and I don't know you, there is no way one can make an assumption regarding another person's life.

It seems that you define 'abuse' as strictly physical abuse. Emotional abuse can be just as devastating. One person's pain does not negate another's.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> It seems that you define 'abuse' as strictly physical abuse. Emotional abuse can be just as devastating. One person's pain does not negate another's.


But not all pain rises to the standard of abuse. Human failing without intent to harm seems to me to fall short of a term that has become so overloaded of late as to be nearly meaningless. 

If I cheat on you without trying to hurt you, I have failed you. But most likely I did not abuse you.


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

Cletus said:


> Blondilocks said:
> 
> 
> > It seems that you define 'abuse' as strictly physical abuse. Emotional abuse can be just as devastating. One person's pain does not negate another's.
> ...


I think y'all are just going to have to agree to disagree.... Neither of you are going to swing the other.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

My dog almost ended up out on the street after this ...


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> EverythingU.RNot said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you all for your thoughts... In my world I WANT to be the wife who doesn't mind (It is a lot of stress and anxiety and wasted energy) *BUT due to MY insecurity, lack of sex (lol) and my husband's dishonesty about this and other areas of life, it has become a monumental issue, when it just began as a minor disgust and a little insecurity.*
> ...


Thank you for this. It has been a real struggle to find any validation because people don't generally observe the secondary behaviors (such as lying) when one tends to talk about this issue.

The "secondary" are the biggest issues for me... I think he lies because he is ashamed. I wouldn't even shame or guilt him for being a normal person, but the secrecy, premeditation and neglect hurt so very much.

Yesterday I did something I haven't done in a very long time... I regressed. I acted out. I stopped trying to appeal to him kindly. I took the SIM card from his phone and went to work.

We home got home that evening he actually talked to me... For probably the first time in years. For him to open up was a huge deal... I couldn't tell him enough times that that is all I wanted... His secrets are safe with me... That I am on HIS side, I'm not out to blackmail him or hurt him or seek revenge. He said that my taking the SIM card left him the entire day to reflect and he concluded that he was indeed in the wrong.

He was still defensive in some ways when I tried to talk about how I feel.. but that was a really big deal to me...

I don't know why it takes a really big overreaction to get his attention. I want to be able to whisper and be heard...


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

always_alone said:


> Definitely not an outlier. Surveys of women show that quite a number expect that sex is supposed to be painful and uncomfortable (for the woman), but her job is to grin and bear it because the guys like it. And people are surprised that the orgasm rates for women remain abysmally low.
> 
> And that's my biggest complaint with porn. In iit sex is pretty much all about the man, all the time, and no matter how pained or uncomfortable she looks, she's still putting on this pseudo pleasure moaning and begging for more. Her pleasure doesn't count for anything.
> 
> Well that and my SO prefers it over me, and lies to me about that.


Umm, no. Just no. Head over to multiple websites and do some research. Women do NOT expect sex to be painful nor uncomfortable and most women have decent sex drives in their own right.

As far as women's orgasm rates, allegedly about 80% of women do not experience orgasm through vaginal intercourse alone. They need clitoral stimulation to reach orgasm. If the man involved isn't providing that stimulation, the woman needs to speak up.





Anon Pink said:


> Blondilocks, I really don't want to cause you upset but there is a difference between poor treatment and abuse. I'm not minimizing your hurt or anyone else's pain at being cheated on but to call yourself the victim of abuse because your spouse cheated on you is minimizing the pain of those spouses who have to leave the home in secret terrified of being discovered before they get somewhere safe.


Thank you. Thank you so much.

I've been abused. And I've been cheated on. Infidelity =/= abuse.

I was told by my closest friend that my exH was cheating on me. I was emotionally upset and angry. He admitted to it, we argued, it sucked. 

My ex also abused me. The last night he spent under the same roof, he ambushed me as I was walking down the stairs. After he'd knocked me down onto the steps, he proceeded to strangle me until I was only semi-conscious and lost control of my bladder. I literally thought I was going to die as I faded out due to lack of oxygen. Thankfully, my next door neighbor heard the struggle and called the police. 

My exH was escorted out by the cops and taken to jail. I spent the rest of the night packing his shyte for his mother to come collect because I damn sure wasn't going to allow him to come back. The next day I got a visit from CPS to check up on me and the kids. The worker informed me that if he was allowed back into the house they would remove my kids from my care.

There is a reason we have one word for abuse and another for infidelity. There is a reason there are emergency shelters for abused women and not for those that have been cheated on. There is a reason why CPS doesn't try to take kids out of a home that experienced infidelity and will remove kids from a home where there is abuse. Yes, cheating is a d!ck move. Yes, it's a terrible thing to do to someone who trusts you. But it's not the same thing as abuse.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> *Thank you for this. It has been a real struggle to find any validation because people don't generally observe the secondary behaviors (such as lying) when one tends to talk about this issue. *


 I realize.. I have seen it .. funny enough I've had a teen son tell me he mentioned looking at some porn to a GF (not proud of it but a struggle) -she goes & tells a friend who hated him, felt he was the worst guy in the world .. also had another son who was honest on an application for a worship Leader position (on this subject)...it was mentioned at the interview shortly... he didn't get the job.. do I think the guy who got the job was Mr purity.. I doubt it! 

It's true..the majority of men will lie through their teeth on this one... some feel backed into a corner, don't want to hurt their GF's/ wives or this will be their fate =







...more shame for hurting them.. they learn early on -only men understand them...

Then some women would rather NOT know.. it's hard to know how to proceed ..but if the woman is the type who seeks "openness" here... it IS an emotional NEED for some people.....then the man needs to give it.. let the chips fall where they may.. work it out..

This book opens up the hidden world of men, their fantasies.. things in this book would disgust many women.. 

Men in Love: Nancy Friday: Books



> Men In Love develops a startlingly honest portrayal of what it means to be a man in contemporary America. Here are the unexpurgated dreams, fantasies and fetishes that excite and obsess men today. In creating this historic study, Nancy Friday listened -- without disapproval, apology or censorship -- to the candid responses of thousands of men aged fourteen through sixty.
> 
> She gave them a legitimate arena where they could share their "secret gardens" -- the hidden and forbidden but nonetheless real and true. Much more than a litany of erotica, this unique volume doesn't tell us how men should love. It tells us how men do love -- a stunning insight into the desires that dwell within men's psyches... and their hearts.





EverythingU.RNot said:


> The "secondary" are the biggest issues for me...* I think he lies because he is ashamed.* I wouldn't even shame or guilt him for being a normal person, but the secrecy, premeditation and neglect hurt so very much.


 You are probably right on this ya know.. Shame is a very deep subject.. many struggle all their lives with it.. Jld did a thread on that here :http://talkaboutmarriage.com/relationships-spirituality/155057-do-you-hide.html

Part of a post I did.. 


> Our imperfections make us Human, and being human is what allows many to feel comfortable... For instance...it's like this comparison.... stepping in the doors to an immaculate house....(my Grandmother was like this).. so darn clean you could eat off the floor, but somehow it made you nervous ...what if you put your shoes in the wrong place, didn't put the dishes in the sink the right way, spilled something on that brand new couch ...
> 
> You just feel more "*at home*" when you go to the house - a little more disheveled...seems the laughter comes a little easier...the joking a little louder, you can put your feet up.. it's more comfortable!
> 
> ...





EverythingU.RNot said:


> Yesterday I did something I haven't done in a very long time... I regressed. I acted out. I stopped trying to appeal to him kindly. I took the SIM card from his phone and went to work.
> 
> *We home got home that evening he actually talked to me... For probably the first time in years. For him to open up was a huge deal... I couldn't tell him enough times that that is all I wanted... His secrets are safe with me... That I am on HIS side, I'm not out to blackmail him or hurt him or seek revenge. He said that my taking the SIM card left him the entire day to reflect and he concluded that he was indeed in the wrong*.


 WONDERFUL TO HEAR [email protected]#$ 

I have a suggestion for you.. just to get you started.. with some better communication.. surely he is also not happy with the distance.. at least his admitting he was in the wrong. ...showing some self awareness here .. this is progress.. you want each interaction to be something positive.. this doesn't mean always agreeing but listening.. feeling heard.. building on what you share.. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...ng-intimacy-insight-open-ended-questions.html



> *He was still defensive in some ways when I tried to talk about how I feel.. but that was a really big deal to me*...


 you may have to take the lead here ...since you are seeking more communication ..before going there... he may not be ready to hear everything so soon.. sometimes it makes a man retreat.. but I do Understand your needing this too!! 



> *I don't know why it takes a really big overreaction to get his attention. I want to be able to whisper and be heard..*.


 I noticed your latest post on your thread... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/relationships-spirituality/290442-how-respond.html ...so many advocate "divorce him!" including me.. but you have determined to DIG YOUR HEELS IN DEEP and continue on.. 

For the love of holding on.. I sincerely hope you can turn this around for the better .


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I'm a woman who has been married twice. First husband was a sex addict and an unfaithful type. Second husband was an admitted porn addict who has found lust very hard to control.

My fist husband wanted to use the forums from porn mags to put excitement into the bedroom. He wanted our sex life to be like you'd see in porn flix. He was interested in 3-somes and wife swapping which I would participate in. I do think porn encouraged the poor behavior. After 7 years we divorced and I did not want to have anything to do with anyone who liked porn.

Second husband was not the dating type as a younger person and not good with woman but very lusting and admired women from afar. he learned to please himself with porn and basically even as a married man lust and porn were his draw which caused us a great deal of issues. We did go thru counseling for the porn addiction but it did not make a difference in how he relates to me and he still struggles with lust for other woman.

So for me in my relationship with both husbands, porn has been a negative impact to our relationship.

As far as limits, you need to make those yourself and you have to be comfortable with those limits. Anything physically violent is not a good idea in my opinion.


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## chrystyana (Oct 14, 2015)

Personally I'm conflicted. When is it okay and when is not..


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

If a spouse is turning away a willing partner for porn....wrong.
If a spouse is willing and able and the other spouse is not interested or LD and willing spouse watches porn....what's the problem?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Porn / masturbation are personal - as long as they do not interfere with your sex life, it isn't a question that should be asked. 

If they do interfere with your sex life, then I think THAT is the problem. 


As an aside, I think a lot of people who complain about porn haven't seen much. A lot of it is not men using women for their pleasure. The women are frequently shown as actively enjoying. The action is fake - but that is true for both genders of actors who are expected to pretend to orgasm on cue at exactly the right point in the scene.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

badsanta said:


> One thing problematic about porn is that it leads to shameful intermarital affairs (not the same as infidelity or an extramarital affair). An intermarital affair is also known as low-risk/high-reward type of behavior in that you can NOT get anyone pregnant or catch STDs, but it can often leave behind the tale tale signs of suspicious towels under the edge of the bed or suspicious charges to the credit card used to purchase novelties such as the following say for people with a vinyl/PVC fetish for giant inflatable octopüssy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yaa...I always get carried away and forget the deflate factor.....


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> As an aside, I think a lot of people who complain about porn haven't seen much. A lot of it is not men using women for their pleasure. The women are frequently shown as actively enjoying. The action is fake - but that is true for both genders of actors who are expected to pretend to orgasm on cue at exactly the right point in the scene.



Much of it is even animated these days as well! So for example, this photo of a woman is CGI


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

AVR1962 said:


> I'm a woman who has been married twice. First husband was a sex addict and an unfaithful type. Second husband was an admitted porn addict who has found lust very hard to control.
> 
> My fist husband wanted to use the forums from porn mags to put excitement into the bedroom. He wanted our sex life to be like you'd see in porn flix. He was interested in 3-somes and wife swapping which I would participate in. I do think porn encouraged the poor behavior. After 7 years we divorced and I did not want to have anything to do with anyone who liked porn.
> 
> ...


Wow....Two men in a row who had unquenchable sexual appetites....Over on the "Sex in marriage" forum, probably half the people complaining about LD mates are women....Can you explain your bad luck...If it is not too personal, what sexual frequency did these to expect?


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Woodchuck said:


> Wow....Two men in a row who had unquenchable sexual appetites....Over on the "Sex in marriage" forum, probably half the people complaining about LD mates are women....Can you explain your bad luck...If it is not too personal, what sexual frequency did these to expect?


With my first husband, 8-10 times a day was not enough. If 3 days went by without sex he would go into a rage if I denied him. He would threaten me that he was going to go find it other places. I ended up just going thru with it even if I didn't want to and just making the best of the situation. I ended up hating being with him in the end. I found out that he had cheated thru our whole marriage so what I did to save the marriage by submitting to him even when I didn't want to have sex made me realize that I would never do that again.

I am still married to my second husband, have been married 23 years.

I have been thru several years of counseling. How did I end up with two men with addiction issues? I think it leads back to my childhood. I chose men who replaced my parents.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> Umm, no. Just no. Head over to multiple websites and do some research. Women do NOT expect sex to be painful nor uncomfortable and most women have decent sex drives in their own right.
> 
> As far as women's orgasm rates, allegedly about 80% of women do not experience orgasm through vaginal intercourse alone. They need clitoral stimulation to reach orgasm. If the man involved isn't providing that stimulation, the woman needs to speak up.



Of course women have a sex drive in their own right! And of course many women know how to find sexual satisfaction. I would never deny this.

But sadly, a lot of young women are now receiving sex education from porn, and there is a significant amount of research that shows that yes, indeed, they have learned that pain and discomfort is something that is just "a part of sex". That they are expected to like certain things, accept certain sexual acts that cause them no pleasure, and that they are the givers of orgasm, whereas men are the takers.

Porn is terrible sex education!

And yes, women should speak up with how to bring them orgasms. But all too often they get guilt trips about "taking too long" or not responding with the same level of (acted) enthusiasm found in porn. As in "why can't you be more like the women in porn, what's wrong with you that you have your own needs, that you don't get off from this (painful) act, don't respond in the "proper"way"?

Porn is terrible sex education, and sadly, it is where most people go for it.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> As an aside, I think a lot of people who complain about porn haven't seen much. A lot of it is not men using women for their pleasure. The women are frequently shown as actively enjoying. The action is fake - but that is true for both genders of actors who are expected to pretend to orgasm on cue at exactly the right point in the scene.


Uh huh. Yes, women are shown "actively enjoying" men using them for their pleasure. Sometimes, you can actually see the pain in the women's eyes, that is when they show you those eyes. Mostly it is just their body parts and their holes "gratefully" receiving whatever is stuffed into them while they moan in pseudo pleasure.

Are the men acting too? Well, sure. But all that is focused on is their ejaculation. They aren't asked to pretend to be orgasming over being used however some woman likes. It's (almost always) the reverse scenario.

Most porn hasn't a clue about women's pleasure. It just tells women what they should be feeling.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
there is so much porn that I can't think of any way to identify "typical". What I have seen does not match what you describe, but of course I am not (and would not know how to) sample a random selection.

I would not watch porn of the type you describe. 




always_alone said:


> Uh huh. Yes, women are shown "actively enjoying" men using them for their pleasure. Sometimes, you can actually see the pain in the women's eyes, that is when they show you those eyes. Mostly it is just their body parts and their holes "gratefully" receiving whatever is stuffed into them while they moan in pseudo pleasure.
> 
> Are the men acting too? Well, sure. But all that is focused on is their ejaculation. They aren't asked to pretend to be orgasming over being used however some woman likes. It's (almost always) the reverse scenario.
> 
> Most porn hasn't a clue about women's pleasure. It just tells women what they should be feeling.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> there is so much porn that I can't think of any way to identify "typical". What I have seen does not match what you describe, but of course I am not (and would not know how to) sample a random selection.
> 
> I would not watch porn of the type you describe.


Fair enough. Porn is changing. Much much more of it is made by women or aimed also at women, and much much more is simply amateurs having fun with a camera. This sort of stuff sends a healthier message, IMHO. One where sex is fun for both partners.

But there is so much that really is just aimed at male fantasy, and is clueless about women, at least IMHO. Certainly a lot of women are taking very damaging messages from it.

And FWIW, I'm not talking about niche genres, but even pretty vanilla stuff. My SO also thinks women are enjoying themselves, but I guess to him things like cervix banging are also women's pleasure because she pretends to like it.

(Cervix banging being one of those things women now often expect to be a part of sex no matter how much pain it causes them, and that they are "broken" if they don't like it or can't orgasms because of it.)


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

always_alone said:


> (Cervix banging being one of those things women now often expect to be a part of sex no matter how much pain it causes them, and that they are "broken" if they don't like it or can't orgasms because of it.)


Agreed. It's extremely painful.... Really really hurts and I honestly don't how the women aren't screaming and crying.

Oh wait. That would just turn some men on even more. Ugh.


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

always_alone said:


> (Cervix banging being one of those things women now often expect to be a part of sex no matter how much pain it causes them, and that they are "broken" if they don't like it or can't orgasms because of it.)


Agreed. It's extremely painful.... Really really hurts and I honestly don't how the women aren't screaming and crying.

Oh wait. That would just turn some men on even more. Ugh.

My husband has done this, and became even more turned on when I couldn't stop screaming... HE WASNT EVEN ALARMED BY MY SCREAMING BECAUSE HE IS USED TO HEARING IT AND IT SOUNDS NORMAL TO HIM.

Once he understood (somewhat - he obviously doesn't have a cervix) how it hurt me he tried to be gentler.

But gentle is boring.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> To women who feel they don't measure up to women in porn I just want to laugh. Because ...does your H measure up to men in porn? Chances are that's a big fat NO!


I always thought it was odd that women think women are the ones in porn that are portrayed unrealistically.

Every guy in porn is massively hung and can go for hours. Guys are the ones that should be feeling insecure!


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

In my experience, it is not the women in porn that bothers me so much as the fact that my husband is having fun without me! Then I come home from work and he's set... And he hears me complain everyday about lack of sex and intimacy... So it's really more about porn taking away what could be time with my hubby.

Yeah the girls are usually hot and I'm... Normal. It does leave me a little insecure and I'm convinced my security level is partly related directly to how much positive attention I've received from him lately.

And some days I can't get through a movie without feeling so awful about myself for not being good enough for my hubby.

He's dorky, but I think he's damn hot.


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Anon Pink said:
> 
> 
> > To women who feel they don't measure up to women in porn I just want to laugh. Because ...does your H measure up to men in porn? Chances are that's a big fat NO!
> ...


Seriously?

Some women have fake body parts most of us can't afford, even if we wanted them.

The guys in porn? Average, middle-aged dudes with beer guys and all? I swear... Maybe I haven't watched enough. lol kidding.

And of course they can last forever! The magic of editing can make them last as long*as needed! lol


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

always_alone said:


> Porn is terrible sex education, and sadly, it is where most people go for it.


First, porn isn't sex education any more than Disney Princess movies are relationship manuals. That said, I love "porn sex". And I never fail to see something new I want to try when I watch porn, even if it's just something subtle. 



always_alone said:


> Uh huh. Yes, women are shown "actively enjoying" men using them for their pleasure. Sometimes, you can actually see the pain in the women's eyes, that is when they show you those eyes. Mostly it is just their body parts and their holes "gratefully" receiving whatever is stuffed into them while they moan in pseudo pleasure.
> 
> Most porn hasn't a clue about women's pleasure. It just tells women what they should be feeling.


Again, I disagree. First, a lot of women actually enjoy and get off on being "used" for a man's pleasure. It's a submission-domination thing. For lack of a better way to explain it, it's amazing to have the power to drive a man to lust that way. To be taken, ravished, possessed. It's a feedback loop. The more turned on and animalistic he gets, the more turned on and animalistic she gets.

In my experience, the reverse can also be true. Lord knows DH was thrilled the first time I just grabbed him up, threw him down, and used him with no regard for anything but getting what I wanted and going on with my evening.

Has it ever crossed your mind that the pain you see is part of the enjoyment? Many of us enjoy treading the pleasure-pain line. It's heady. It makes you feel alive. It's almost addictive in the same way adrenaline rushes are.



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> there is so much porn that I can't think of any way to identify "typical". What I have seen does not match what you describe, but of course I am not (and would not know how to) sample a random selection.
> 
> I would not watch porn of the type you describe.


I've watched everything from classics like Behind the Green Door (do NOT watch if you hate bush!) to random gangbangs to amateur dogging/hot wife porn and haven't seen what the above poster is seeing, either.



always_alone said:


> Fair enough. Porn is changing. Much much more of it is made by women or aimed also at women.
> 
> And FWIW, I'm not talking about niche genres, but even pretty vanilla stuff. My SO also thinks women are enjoying themselves, but I guess to him things like cervix banging are also women's pleasure because she pretends to like it.


I've watched some made for women porn. I have to admit it was a bit boring, but maybe I just got unlucky.

Umm, you do know some women like cervical bumping? Your SO isn't wrong to think that cervical bumping is pleasurable because, for a lot of women, it is.



EverythingU.RNot said:


> Agreed. It's extremely painful.... Really really hurts and I honestly don't how the women aren't screaming and crying.
> 
> Oh wait. That would just turn some men on even more. Ugh.
> 
> ...


I've done some screaming, crying, and maybe speaking in Tongues during non slow and definitely not gentle cervical bumping sex and, believe me, it wasn't from pain. 

Don't hold it against your H that he wasn't alarmed. He probably thought the screaming was pleasure, especially if he's had past lovers that were loud and who felt intense pleasure from cervical bumping. If he had past lovers who enjoyed it, he probably thought all women did.

Sometimes, it's easy to mistake intense pleasure and pain. That's one of the reasons people have safe words. Safe words aren't just for those that enjoy BDSM. They're also a way to communicate a very clear "Stop! I don't like that!" 

DH and I use safe words inspired by soccer. "Yellow Card" means to ease up a bit, but please continue. "Red Card" means stop.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> And of course they can last forever! The magic of editing can make them last as long*as needed! lol


More like the magic of Viagra and the mystical talents of the fluffers! >


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> Agreed. It's extremely painful.... Really really hurts and I honestly don't how the women aren't screaming and crying.
> 
> Oh wait. That would just turn some men on even more. Ugh.


Perhaps *some* men. But exceedingly few.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Most porn hasn't a clue about women's pleasure. It just tells women what they should be feeling.


Isn't porn also telling men that they should have a huge penis and be able to last for hours?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> My husband has done this, and became even more turned on when I couldn't stop screaming... HE WASNT EVEN ALARMED BY MY SCREAMING BECAUSE HE IS USED TO HEARING IT AND IT SOUNDS NORMAL TO HIM.
> 
> *If he knew that you were screaming in pain and continued, he's a gigantic a$$hole and THAT (not porn use) would be reason enough to leave him.*
> 
> ...


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Isn't porn also telling men that they should have a huge penis and be able to last for hours?


And that they should be able to bring a women to orgasm with tongue and/or fingers within seconds. And that a man should be able to become hard as a board almost immediately after orgasm.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Some women have fake body parts most of us can't afford, even if we wanted them.
> 
> ...


They guys used to be unattractive in the 70's when the primary skill needed of them was to get it up and keep it up under klieg lights. That's how the world got Ron Jeremy!

Since the invention of Viagra, they can afford to be choosier.

Porn with middle-age guys with average equipment and beer bellies? That's some pretty kinky porn you've seen.

EDIT: And most men are on record as not liking fake boobs.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> More like the magic of Viagra and the mystical talents of the fluffers! >


With Viagra, the fluffers aren't needed anymore.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> First, porn isn't sex education any more than Disney Princess movies are relationship manuals.


And yet, disaffected women complain about porn being used as a sex manual and disaffected men complain about Disney Princess movies being used as relationship manuals.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> How do you define what point, if any, does it becomes unacceptable? What point is it ok?
> 
> For those who do not take issue with porn, would you mind describing your relationship in general? Good? Bad?
> 
> ...


It's a big question.
Full of taboos... some illegal.

too much of it about these days. And US culture is full of it (eg music business videos, advertising).

However. It is only one aspect of human activity and relationships. I have same view to porn as I do to business (humans trading), politics (humans organising collectives), dealing with emotional commitment (eg counselling, media whoring, marriage).

It becomes unacceptable when : (1) the State or community decides it has rights over the informed individual. (2) it is forced on people who do not want it. (3) people retroactively complain because they didn't get the trade/profit they hoped for. (4) When it becomes addictive and systemic. (5) When it is used as a social reward (ie special members of society are rewarded it).

Also seriously needs to be graded - softcore is way different to many ..stronger... tastes.

The abuse towards women. Depends on the source. If she's a highly paid actress willingly taking on the work, good on her. abuse those paypigs as much as you want. Forced is just assault, and possibly kidnapping, severe crime.

Yes my mental, emotional, psychological, and relationship does affect what I find attractive at the time. However I find I need a mental connection to my partner in physical intercourse, which many people do not - to them their inner need may be less psychological and more driven by idealised profile.

Porn is about fantasy.

no porn does not lead to abuse or infidelity. It can lead, and often will lead, to poor expectations and poor reasoning skills - this is a massive problem on multiple levels of modern society, not just sexuality and porn. Read again what I said above about porn being only one aspect.
The real problem is lots of stupid naked monkeys aren't bright enough or caring enough to deal with all the aspects or their relationships and needs, or about helping the other not so bright monkeys. Porn is a symptom of a problem, not a problem in itself.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
for the people who find porn objectionable, have you searched for the sort of porn you would like? If you are seeing someone else's porn choices you may be getting a very biased view of "average" porn.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

always_alone said:


> Uh huh. Yes, women are shown "actively enjoying" men using them for their pleasure. Sometimes, you can actually see the pain in the women's eyes, that is when they show you those eyes. Mostly it is just their body parts and their holes "gratefully" receiving whatever is stuffed into them while they moan in pseudo pleasure.
> 
> Are the men acting too? Well, sure. But all that is focused on is their ejaculation. They aren't asked to pretend to be orgasming over being used however some woman likes. It's (almost always) the reverse scenario.
> 
> Most porn hasn't a clue about women's pleasure. It just tells women what they should be feeling.


ditto for the men.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> When was the last time you had a heart to heart about these issues ? Has he given you ANYTHING to show he understands your needs and cares , does he even apologize , show he wants to be a better man?


He should not have to/want to be "a better man for you".
He's the person you committed to warts and all (  ).

You don't like what you bought, take a look in the mirror. There is the problem. <mutter...expecting others to change for her ... bet that isn't reciprocated freely ... /m >

He has to want to change for his reasons. you have to want to change yourself for your reasons. Otherwise the person changing has no value in it for themselves, the reason, the cost, is entirely external - are you willing to take on that endless contract forever - and if you are, what type of person does that make you? considering you just changed the person you committed too from what you wanted to something else. That isn't a relationship, it isn't respect; it's a project, done to satisfy yourself, on something you _don't_ respect!

Same goes for _all_ genders. process people, jus' processing.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

spotthedeaddog said:


> He should not have to/want to be "a better man for you".
> He's the person you committed to warts and all (  ).
> 
> You don't like what you bought, take a look in the mirror. There is the problem. <mutter...expecting others to change for her ... bet that isn't reciprocated freely ... /m >
> ...


I feel the problem here is .. he lied from the very beginning.. That's just not OK...... If a guy likes his porn, if a guy has problems with attachment, if he's the unemotional type, a loner who has no need of anyone... let it all hang out....don't put on a show while dating.... BE who you are.. 

..Look.. I don't even have issues with a little porn watching...I am one of the women here who thinks men who never crave a look probably need their Testosterone checked.. (yeah saying that will go over well on this forum)..

When someone goes into a relationship founded on LIES.. and hiding.. a train wreck is on it's way.... sometimes I think people start to believe their sorry lies...stop pacifying her with untruths that has destroyed her trust...those roots grew.. not there is branches of problems. 

They'll both have to be strong & keep kicking to face the difficult truth ....finding a way to make peace with it all, to forgive, will be grueling.. but they just might find...amidst the ashes....there's something to salvage.. to build upon... I don't know. 

You are right in that one has to do it *for themselves*.. not under compulsion or force , as this will not last... it has to be a conviction of the heart.... a porn post I did on this thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/295106-porn-social-media-2.html touched on that -using a book to open the subject up wide....(post #56)

You seem to dislike my suggesting a man be "a better man".. I'm all for 1st looking in the mirror.. absolutely...we as women / wives, we also need to strive to be the best we can be, for our men/ husbands..


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

> Don't hold it against your H that he wasn't alarmed. He probably thought the screaming was pleasure, especially if he's had past lovers that were loud and who felt intense pleasure from cervical bumping. If he had past lovers who enjoyed it, he probably thought all women did. Sometimes, it's easy to mistake intense pleasure and pain. That's one of the reasons people have safe words. Safe words aren't just for those that enjoy BDSM. They're also a way to communicate a very clear "Stop! I don't like that!" DH and I use safe words inspired by soccer. "Yellow Card" means to ease up a bit, but please continue. "Red Card" means stop.


I try not to hold grudges, but he knows me pretty well, and he knows what my normal is... And I can and do enjoy him reaching my cervix... It can be an incredible feeling.... But this hurt, his "pounding" away took away my breath away for a moment (and not in a good way) before I could say something... 

This is another frustrating thing for me as well.. anytime I might offer some constructive information (I.e. "I really like it when you're rough, but not 'too' rough because that can be painful") He may respond with "Fine, we just won't have sex anymore." ??? His polarized thinking just kills me sometimes. It's either black or white, and it drives me INSANE....


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

MJJEAN said:


> EverythingU.RNot said:
> 
> 
> > And of course they can last forever! The magic of editing can make them last as long*as needed! lol
> ...


lol True! I was also referring to the fact that they can film the same take/scene from 5 different angles to prolong the actual scene once edited.


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Porn with middle-age guys with average equipment and beer bellies? That's some pretty kinky porn you've seen.


lol! Well...I don't watch porn. If I do, it's of my hubby. But when I discover what he's watching, I watch it too, to get an objective feel for it. I can't give him reasons I dislike something if I don't actually see what it is that he watched...

And... I'm never opposed to kink. I'm definitely the more adventurous one here..


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Porn is a symptom of a problem, not a problem in itself.


I do agree. I clarified earlier that the time and intimacy taken away when my husband resorts to PMO is my primary complaint, aside the fact that I set a clear boundary before I would even start dating him, that I do not approve of it within a serious relationship. (And we had a good long talk about all the specifics so he is 100% unable to play dumb or find a loophole).

Yes, my expectations may have been a bit high, but no one put a gun to his head to make him date/marry me.


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> for the people who find porn objectionable, have you searched for the sort of porn you would like? If you are seeing someone else's porn choices you may be getting a very biased view of "average" porn.


The porn I like is making my own.


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

spotthedeaddog said:


> He should not have to/want to be "a better man for you". He's the person you committed to warts and all ( ).
> 
> You don't like what you bought, take a look in the mirror. There is the problem. <mutter...expecting others to change for her ... bet that isn't reciprocated freely ... /m >
> 
> ...


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel the problem here is .. he lied from the very beginning.. That's just not OK...... If a guy likes his porn, if a guy has problems with attachment, if he's the unemotional type, a loner who has no need of anyone... let it all hang out....don't put on a show while dating.... BE who you are..


THANK YOU! I could not have said it better myself!

You know, a lot of people put their best foot forward when you start dating... My husband and I were friends first... For years. He saw all of MY warts, and I cared none to hide them. If you like me, cool. If you don't, cool. I had no agenda or reason to be anyone other than myself.


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

I see to have trouble editing my posts and flipping between pages... But it didn't look like this posted in full



spotthedeaddog said:


> He should not have to/want to be "a better man for you". He's the person you committed to warts and all ( ).
> 
> You don't like what you bought, take a look in the mirror. There is the problem. <mutter...expecting others to change for her ... bet that isn't reciprocated freely ... /m >
> 
> ...


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

Personal said:


> Perhaps this is a lesson for others, when someone shows you who they are believe them. If ever you find something unacceptable in a person, don't be foolish enough to think you can really change them even if they try to accommodate your wants.
> 
> Come As You Are! Accept them as they actually are and what they might be, not as they offer to be or how you want them to be. If only the former rather than the latter happened in your relationship this wouldn't be an issue.


First off, I'm not a mind reader. I cannot even remotely wrap my mind around how to accept someone as they "might" be. It's on THEM to provide a fair representation of themselves, not on me to "guess"

I, in no way, shape or form asked him to change for me. I did not know he even had a "stash" until he gave it to me. I did not place any demands upon him. It was a gesture on his part, of disclosure and transparency.

Stereotypes die hard, I guess. All women want to change men.... Pffft. Maybe men should step up and just be flipping honest for a change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> spotthedeaddog said:
> 
> 
> > He should not have to/want to be "a better man for you". He's the person you committed to warts and all ( ).
> ...


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> First off, I'm not a mind reader. I cannot even remotely wrap my mind around how to accept someone as they "might" be. It's on THEM to provide a fair representation of themselves, not on me to "guess"


Incorrect.

You make a decision, it is up to you to do the due diligence for what the outcome of your decision is going to be, and what you're getting into. You can't shift the responsibility for your choice onto others.

It is up to them to project the most favorable version of themselves - yours to find what you need to know.


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

Further:




Personal said:


> Considering the fact he had a stash, it was always highly likely he would go back to the same.


Ok. So I should have made a baseless assumption instead of being understanding and reasonable... I should have refused to accept that a 30-something year old single man living alone has a porn stash? I should have shut him down right then and there? Especially when the moment this is revealed to me, it is a seemingly sincere gesture from a man who says, 'I thought about what you said the other night during our discussion and I think you have a lot of valid points. Here, take my stash. I don't want it anymore now that I am more informed of the damage it does to myself and the women. I no longer want to support an industry who abuses and objectifies women. I really like you and I'd like to pursue a deeper and more meaningful connection with you"

Yeah, I'm supposed to respond with: "Sorry, I needed you to be perfect from the absolute start. You had a stash and for that reason alone I won't ever date you because I believe you're incapable of, or even truly desire, intellectual growth"....????

(Where am I going to find a man who has NEVER watched porn before? Let's be realistic.)



Personal said:


> Although he probably thought he could do this FOR you...


He did it "FOR" me? No. He did it FOR himself. He did it, 1.) In an honest effort to evolve, and 2.) Because he knew it would be discovered sooner or later if we dated/lived together. 



Personal said:


> One should never be surprised he has gone back to it.


Why, may I ask, should I have NEVER been surprised? Should I have had an unfounded lower expectation of him and refuse to trust or believe in him, even though our friendship and dating relationship never presented any reasons for me to doubt?



Personal said:


> Perhaps this is a lesson for others


Yes, clearly I need to be made an example of. Lessons today: Be judgmental. Expect, no, DEMAND perfection. Being human is not a sufficient excuse for failure. Any attempt on your part to be open, grow and evolve will be immediately considered suspect, crushed and disregarded.



Personal said:


> When someone shows you who they are believe them


He showed me he was willing to face rejection by the very act of being open and honest. He was respectful, thoughtful and most of all: He was capable of processing and applying new thoughts and ideas previously not presented to him.



Personal said:


> If ever you find something unacceptable in a person


It's totally unacceptable to be vulnerable and honest. Wow I can't believe I missed that one!



Personal said:


> Don't be foolish enough to think you can really change them


Because having my own mind and my own opinions and not being afraid to express them was clearly a covert (and foolish!) "tactic" on my part to change what I did not know needed to be changed....



Personal said:


> if they try to accommodate your wants.


Got it. Not only did you just reduce my opinions and boundaries to veiled "wants", it is my responsibility to reject him.



Personal said:


> Come As You Are! Accept them as they actually are and what they might be


I accept him always, then and now.



Personal said:


> not as they offer to be or how you want them to be.


Again. Be suspicious. Do not, under ANY circumstances, trust anyone who says they want to grow ethically as a person; as a humanitarian. No one ever does!

I don't want him to be anything he's not. I want him to be happy with who he is because that's what matters....



Personal said:


> If only the former rather than the latter happened in your relationship this wouldn't be an issue.


If only it were solely the responsibility of one to decode the other....

This whole comment just reeks of "shame and blame" and egregiously high expectations.... While ZERO accountability is even accounted for on the part of one who was dishonest....

Seriously, at what point do you draw the line and give people the benefit of the doubt?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Personal said:


> *Considering the fact he had a stash, it was always highly likely he would go back to the same. Although he probably thought he could do this for you and at the very least tried, one should never be surprised he has gone back to it.
> 
> Perhaps this is a lesson for others, when someone shows you who they are believe them. If ever you find something unacceptable in a person, don't be foolish enough to think you can really change them even if they try to accommodate your wants.*
> 
> ...


 I agree with this... and would warn my daughter the same.. . I would feel this way about a man who had a criminal record, did drugs at one time, couldn't handle his alcohol / 1 DUI in his background (Goodbye!)... gambles, blows his money ...any sort of bordering addiction....even a video gaming nut. 

... I just wouldn't be able to TRUST they'd fully get that out of their system once it was a habitual lifestyle ....*when promising to change for another . *

Rarely works...

Oh people CAN change, it's not all black & white... the odds of true change will be higher when one has had a life altering experience , when they find themselves DEAD set against such behaviors due to how it once almost destroyed their lives, seeing this reality no longer making excuses, a resolve there, leaving them more of a Mentor to speak against such things...Kinda like redemption. 

That is about the only thing that would give me pause.. like "Hey, this person is a changed human being here"....but also that he did it for himself, his future. 

Truth is people OFTEN slide back into their previous vices...no matter their good intentions...that yeah.. it's likely to rear it's ugly head down the road at some point...


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

I'm Being ornery, obviously, but really... I think very much differently I guess.

I read things like "A giant billboard" that I "ignored" and my mind just says WTF. A giant billboard that should have read "I like porn and I don't want to give it up." Not only did I not "ignore" it (as if this were an intentional turning of the blind eye), it's not even something I ever "saw" to begin with, if that makes sense....

But it's up to me to somehow decipher some kind of covert code/hint/whatever and play psychologist/psychic to interpret another's agenda? Because really, I'd rather not waste my time if things begin with such negativity and presumtiveness....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> ... I just wouldn't be able to TRUST they'd fully get that out of their system once it was a habitual lifestyle ....when promising to change for another .


I am one of those people. I made a promise and absolutely kept it for me, and for my husband. (Destructive lifestyle choice that was a deal breaker for him).

It wasn't hard for me at all. I felt it was an absolutely positive way to begin our married life....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> First, porn isn't sex education any more than Disney Princess movies are relationship manuals. That said, I love "porn sex". And I never fail to see something new I want to try when I watch porn, even if it's just something subtle.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I disagree. First, a lot of women actually enjoy and get off on being "used" for a man's pleasure. It's a submission-domination thing. For lack of a better way to explain it, it's amazing to have the power to drive a man to lust that way. To be taken, ravished, possessed. It's a feedback loop. The more turned on and animalistic he gets, the more turned on and animalistic she gets.


It ouught not be sex education, but it is. You yourself admitted to using it that way. How do you suppose all the tweens and teens are using it? For ideas of how sex is, could be, should be.

And thank you for making my point! You say you've *never* seen porn of the type that I describe, and then go on and talk about porn as I've described and telling me how pleasure and pain are mixed for lots of people,.and how women love to be submissive and just "taken", and I shouldn't worry about that because that's just the way it is.

Okay, I get get that a lot of women find pain to be heady stuff and screaming at some cervical banging makes them happy. But now you too are telling me that this is how sex is for women, what we should expect, and whether we like it or not we should grin and bear it.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Personal said:


> I didn't know cervical bumping was a sought after thing, I guess we're not viewing that kind of pornography. Although my wife and I do sometimes enjoy pornography (not cervical bumping), it certainly isn't all pervasive in our relationship even if we very occasionally make some of our own.


No one seeks it out because you can't actually see it happening. You can just see the body language and the expression of the actress (when they show that). 

My SO claims that he has no interest in abuse or pain in women, and watches "vanilla" stuff, but I've also seen it in these films.


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

spotthedeaddog said:


> what you convinced yourself you could make him or what the sales brochure told you.
> 
> did you consider for any moment _why_ he had the porn, why he gave it up, and why it came back?


Well I guess I'm just not that bright, but I do know I HAD NO INTENTION, AGENDA, GOAL OR ANY OTHER THOUGHT OR MOTIVE TO CHANGE HIM. I THOUGHT HE WAS FLIPPING WONDERFUL JUST AS HE WAS!

YES, I DID ACTUALLY CONSIDER WHY HE HAD THE PORN : 1. He's human; he's a man. 2. He's single and living alone.

2. I believed he gave it up after an ethical debate we had several months before we even started dating... When he gave me his stash, his pursuit of growth didn't seem out of character to me as he is always obsessing about how to improve this and that areas of his life. It fit with his patterns well.

He went vegan out of nowhere for a while 'just to see' if it would improve his energy levels.

He was also a daily drinker (beer or wine) and he also suddenly and randomly just stopped drinking one day out of the blue. With no apparent cue.

He'll wake up in the morning with an idea in his head and just do it, so when he gave me the stash it really, really wasn't like anything I even remotely felt was weird or strange. When he went vegan he gave me all the meat out of his fridge and that didn't turn out to be anything, you know? And if I didn't mention this before, it was much before we started dating, even though yes, he had expressed an interest or flirtation with me before. It was not like he handed me the box and said "now will you date me?"

3. Why the porn came back? I don't know. i really don't. Maybe I'm just plain not good enough. Maybe he's bored. Who knows??? I really can't answer that..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Isn't porn also telling men that they should have a huge penis and be able to last for hours?


Yep, and lots of guys have some pretty serious self esteem issues around these things. 

The good news for them, though, is that pain is not a part of the expectation for them, and they don't really require any skill as a lover, as the woman will be orgasming with just a grope and a fumble.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> First off, I'm not a mind reader. I cannot even remotely wrap my mind around how to accept someone as they "might" be. It's on THEM to provide a fair representation of themselves, not on me to "guess"
> 
> I, in no way, shape or form asked him to change for me. I did not know he even had a "stash" until he gave it to me. I did not place any demands upon him. It was a gesture on his part, of disclosure and transparency.
> 
> ...


My SO did the same sorts of thing. Lots of "respect for women" blah, blah, blah, yadda,yadda, and never admitting that he does it too. Just kept it as hidden as possible, and when I brought the topic up to him one day, the very first thing he did was leave the room, clear his browser history, and then came back and invited me to look at his computer and history.



The lying bugs me. The refusal to be open and honest about his sexuality bugs me. The never having a sexual thought until I leave the house, and then, whammo, somehow he just "had the urge" but I "wasn"t around" REALLY bugs me. The fact that I will probably never have a decent sex life also bugs me.

But I've given up on the fight. I save all my sexual thoughts until he is out of the house, I no longer initiate, I permit my forbidden thoughts of other guys, and basically take the same attitude as him: "I'll do what I want, and I don't care how it affects you." Of course, it doesn't affect him at all because he doesn't notice, but that's another story.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

always_alone said:


> It ouught not be sex education, but it is. You yourself admitted to using it that way. How do you suppose all the tweens and teens are using it? For ideas of how sex is, could be, should be.
> 
> And thank you for making my point! You say you've *never* seen porn of the type that I describe, and then go on and talk about porn as I've described and telling me how pleasure and pain are mixed for lots of people,.and how women love to be submissive and just "taken", and I shouldn't worry about that because that's just the way it is.
> 
> Okay, I get get that a lot of women find pain to be heady stuff and screaming at some cervical banging makes them happy. But now you too are telling me that this is how sex is for women, what we should expect, and whether we like it or not we should grin and bear it.


No. What I'm saying is that there are a lot of women who are really into "porn sex". Not faking it. Not just doing it to please some man. Actually turned on and into it. Screaming because of the intense physical pleasure.

No, I don't use porn as sex ed. But I have used it for new ideas and inspiration. 

Honestly, I don't think porn is the problem. Porn is just a convenient scapegoat. I think the problem is sexual style incompatibility. If one of a couple likes porn style sex and the other does not, eventually both will be dissatisfied. 

Of course I don't think a woman should just grin and bear it. If she's not into it, she shouldn't do it. She should find a partner who is into the same style of sex she's into.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

Well for whatever reason, I apparently lack some kind of internal barometer that "should" have made his porn stash a red-flag. I did suspect it all along, of course, but I never saw it first hand until just before we started to date. I don't ever expect to find someone, particularly a single man, to be without one. To me that seems almost too ridiculous to even be possible.

That doesn't mean I set out to change people or force them to comply with my beliefs. That doesn't mean I judge people who disagree. That certainly doesn't mean I set myself up to be a victim. I just do not seek or demand perfection, and it almost feels as though the idea is, if I choose to date or be friends with someone who only meets my prerequisites, I'd had a very lonely and empty life.

But my boundaries are fairly inflexible, and even more rigid are the implications that I should write off another simply out of judgment in a very particular area of life.

I really try to pride myself on being fair, objective, giving the benefit of the doubt and seeing myself for who I am an owning my faults and to grow and evolve. I know I'm not perfect, or the most intelligent, but whatever it is that makes it so obvious to many of you..... Is not within me.

When I started this thread I really wanted just answers, to remain as objective as possible and determine my own conclusion.I wanted to know if there were other thoughts or ideas I failed to explore. Apparently I did not explore the idea that others can and do hold one accountable for things which one cannot control.

Furthermore, this repeated implication that I somehow set out, set up, plotted and schemed to mold another human being to my needs, for compliance, control, power, whatever, is just plain disgusting to me.

Am I perfect? Hell no. But to the best of my intellectual capabilities, I put forth every effort I can/could to establish boundaries, prevent unnecessary hurt, respect boundaries, remain mindful, non judgmental, positive and do so in the spirit of good intentions... 

Instead of the simple answers to my questions, I feel as though everyone else is focused on the subjective experience. I didn't come here to play the Victim Card anymore than I came here to be essentially defined as a manipulative woman who set out to force this man to comply...

The whole reason I posted this in the first place is to get a sense of appropriateness in/out of context, and what factors affect the couple's comfort level, if any, and how to procede with handling disagreements tactfully....

Thank you all for your input.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Lol, just saw this online and made me think of this thread:



> While anti-pornography activists claim that watching porn can hurt current or future relationships, science doesn't back up the allegation. The reason? It's very hard to find men to study who have never watched porn.


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

Saying I "ignored" a huge "billboard", in my opinion, is not to oblige me for being oblivious. It is almost rather a condescending-seeming assumption that I DELIBERATELY failed to acknowledge an obvious problem, probably with the over-inflated sense of power or control over another or however people now think I am.

Trust me, a billboard would have been much more than welcome.... And I still have no clue as to how one can draw the assumption, that in the end, it was my own stupidity that put me here wondering what happened.... I just don't generally distrust people when they are forthcoming, especially when I had no reason to suspect dishonesty or motive.

If I had intentionally demanded, challenged and failed the compliance of my husband, the last thing I would do is post about it on a public forum and open myself to humiliation and to be dissection....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

always_alone said:


> My SO did the same sorts of thing. Lots of "respect for women" blah, blah, blah, yadda,yadda, and never admitting that he does it too. Just kept it as hidden as possible, and when I brought the topic up to him one day, the very first thing he did was leave the room, clear his browser history, and then came back and invited me to look at his computer and history.


The little face you put after writing this.... Perfect!

And wow. My husband does do many, obvious*things like this and if I were to say something he would tell me I'm crazy.

I'm not crazy, I just notice every little thing regardless if I want to know or am looking for it or not. He just isn't as detail oriented as he needs to be to trick me..... lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> Well for whatever reason, I apparently lack some kind of internal barometer that "should" have made his porn stash a red-flag. I did suspect it all along, of course, but I never saw it first hand until just before we started to date. I don't ever expect to find someone, particularly a single man, to be without one. To me that seems almost too ridiculous to even be possible._Posted via Mobile Device_


I could have written your reply here. You are not alone. I passed up many red flags too that I did not recognize fully. Our minds are not wired like the male brain so we do not make the connections at first but with time it becomes clear. Don't let anyone make you feel you are wrong for your beliefs or how you feel in connection to this subject. Empower yourself and don't put up with the unkind words and manipulation of others.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> Thank you for this. It has been a real struggle to find any validation because people don't generally observe the secondary behaviors (such as lying) when one tends to talk about this issue.
> 
> The "secondary" are the biggest issues for me... I think he lies because he is ashamed. I wouldn't even shame or guilt him for being a normal person, but the secrecy, premeditation and neglect hurt so very much.
> 
> ...


How long have you been together and when did you notice the problem?? Have you suggested counseling for porn addiction?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> Yeah, I'm supposed to respond with: "Sorry, I needed you to be perfect from the absolute start. You had a stash and for that reason alone I won't ever date you because I believe you're incapable of, or even truly desire, intellectual growth"....????


Given your feelings on the matter, that's a lot closer to the truth than you probably want to admit.



> (Where am I going to find a man who has NEVER watched porn before? Let's be realistic.)


Nearly impossible. But a guy who OWNS porn is a guy who has viewed it in the past and will continue to in the future, even if he sincerely wants to please you. He'll just go underground in deference to your feelings. 



> He did it "FOR" me? No. He did it FOR himself. He did it, 1.) In an honest effort to evolve


And here you paint any man who uses pornography in the light of a lower life form. 

Your man tried to meet your wishes. He failed. So throw him back in and find one with a more upright posture who doesn't drag his knuckles. Just don't be surprised if you find the pickings a bit slim on this one.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

AVR1962 said:


> Don't let anyone make you feel you are wrong for your beliefs or how you feel in connection to this subject. Empower yourself and don't put up with the unkind words and manipulation of others.


Which is exactly the words I would write to a man about his occasional porn viewing that's not interfering with his relationship.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

My story, for what it is worth. Over a several year period.

I tell then BF that I don't like it. He says he will stop. He was Nice Guying me a little. But also trying to be genuinely nice. HE thought the problem was my KNOWING about it. So he hid. But you cannot hide forever.

I find out and am REALLY unhappy. I am not good enough for him. He has to look at other women. He LIED. I was not happy. What he did here was important. He said look, I could tell you I am going to stop, but can we talk about why I would/should? From my perspective, I have done this all my life, and it has NOTHING to do with you. I am madly in love with you. I lust like crazy after you. And sometimes I just need an outlet.

So we talked. I made the effort to understand HIM. I was still not crazy about it. But I told him I was not going to try to compel him to do anything. He said, fair enough. I will abate until such time as you can be ok with it.

We talked some more. I decided to become ok with it based on my desire to love him, his complete transparency in communication and my coming to believe it really had nothing to do with me.

YMMV.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Some women have fake body parts most of us can't afford, even if we wanted them.
> 
> ...


Porn is nothing but fantasy. There is no connection to this woman emotionally which perhaps some men like. It shows something completely unrealistic....that the woman who has been made-up, posed, air brushed is a flawless beauty waiting for her man. What she is waiting for is her next pay check. There is some women who love the attention from men but there are a good plenty of them that would not give a man the time of day if they didn't have money in their hand.

What men don't see, don't think about as all their mind thinks about is their arousal when they see cleavage, is this is someone who might be high maintenance, she might have an expensive shoe fetish, she might have a drug addiction or she might be the single mom to three children. Forget that this woman could be young enough to be some of these men's grand daughters. How would these men feel it it was their sister, daughter, grand daughter in these mags/online that men were getting off too. How would that change their attitude? This is the reality part that men discount all to please the little monster in their pants that hey have become best friends with since they could feel the excitement of the touch.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm tired of hearing these blanket statements about what porn does to some men, how porn portrays some women, how some women think about sex because of porn.

If you partner is ignoring you, that's the issue. Not porn, not video games, not cabinet making.

If your partner sucks in bed, that's the issue. Not porn, not video games, not other men at the pool hall.

If you want a more connected marriage, that's what you work on, not eradicating porn from his life.

If you want your partner to know the kinds of things YOU like in bed, it's your responsibility to teach him, not porn, not his father, and not the guys at Home Depot.

If your partner is a d!ck, call him out on it and insist he treat you better, but don't blame porn, or society, or his mother.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm tired of hearing these blanket statements about what porn does to some men, how porn portrays some women, how some women think about sex because of porn.
> 
> If you partner is ignoring you, that's the issue. Not porn, not video games, not cabinet making.
> 
> ...


Frickin A Yeah.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

If I had a pornstar name, it would be Throbbin Woody.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Mr.Fisty said:


> If I had a pornstar name, it would be Throbbin Woody.


Dumbass. You already have a porn star name.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Cletus said:


> Dumbass. You already have a porn star name.


If you got creative with your username (added/removed a couple of letters) you could have one too :laugh:


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Yep, and lots of guys have some pretty serious self esteem issues around these things.
> 
> The good news for them, though, is that pain is not a part of the expectation for them, and they don't really require any skill as a lover, as the woman will be orgasming with just a grope and a fumble.


If there's a problem with men being indifferent to a woman's sexual pleasure, I would expect women to stop having sex with them.

Eventually, they'd figure out that women are not coming back for a repeat performance and either up their game or settle for an endless string of one night stands.

Isn't this solvable by women not settling for lousy lovers who have no interest in improving?

Why are women the victims here?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Mr.Fisty said:


> If I had a pornstar name, it would be Throbbin Woody.





Cletus said:


> Dumbass. You already have a porn star name.


Hysterical!


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Dumbass. You already have a porn star name.



Yeah, but Throbbin Woody sounds sooo much better. Now I have a regret in this life. Perhaps I should ask a mod to get that changed.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> Of course I don't think a woman should just grin and bear it. *If she's not into it, she shouldn't do it*. She should find a partner who is into the same style of sex she's into.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gosh, that sound like women might actually have some control over their sexual lives. That sounds, what's the word, empowering.

I thought you were supposed to be a victim.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

AVR1962 said:


> What men don't see, don't think about as all their mind thinks about is their arousal when they see cleavage, is this is someone who might be high maintenance, she might have an expensive shoe fetish, she might have a drug addiction or she might be the single mom to three children. Forget that this woman could be young enough to be some of these men's grand daughters. How would these men feel it it was their sister, daughter, grand daughter in these mags/online that men were getting off too. How would that change their attitude? This is the reality part that men discount all to please the little monster in their pants that hey have become best friends with since they could feel the excitement of the touch.


Make no mistake. We're under no illusions about female porn stars. The are at the top of the list of women we would never consider being involved with.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm tired of hearing these blanket statements about what porn does to some men, how porn portrays some women, how some women think about sex because of porn.
> 
> If you partner is ignoring you, that's the issue. Not porn, not video games, not cabinet making.
> 
> ...


I don't believe I've ever seen you give a bad piece of advice.

You are always ON it.

You need to find a way to get rich doing this.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Make no mistake. We're under no illusions about female porn stars. The are at the top of the list of women we would never consider being involved with.


Completely agreed. Don't think I have ever watched a porn where I fantasized another having a LTR (or even a STR) with the actress ...


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm tired of hearing these blanket statements about what porn does to some men, how porn portrays some women, how some women think about sex because of porn.
> 
> If you partner is ignoring you, that's the issue. Not porn, not video games, not cabinet making.
> 
> ...


Well said!!!!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I don't believe I've ever seen you give a bad piece of advice.
> 
> You are always ON it.
> 
> You need to find a way to get rich doing this.


Why thank you!

That'll be $145.00 please.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Why thank you!
> 
> That'll be $145.00 please.


Anyone who has colored "personal massagers" as their avatar is OK in my book :grin2:


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Anyone who has colored "personal massagers" as their avatar is OK in my book :grin2:


Hate to burst your bubble but they are foam bats. There to remind me to put down the 2x4.

Maybe I should change my avatar....


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Anyone who has colored "personal massagers" as their avatar is OK in my book :grin2:


That's a thing now? And to think, 50 years ago this kind of massage was only available to men of color south of the Mason Dixon line.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Hate to burst your bubble but they are foam bats. There to remind me to put down the 2x4.
> 
> Maybe I should change my avatar....


Nah, one more ban and you'll probably be gone for good.

Keep the foam bats. Apply as necessary.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Hate to burst your bubble but they are foam bats. There to remind me to put down the 2x4.
> 
> Maybe I should change my avatar....


Well that's no fun. Next up someone will probably tell me the link on the TAM toolbar is not really for The Rapists ....


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
One reason people lie about porn is that it is in some sense "fantasy". Someone's selection of porn may give a view into a very private area - like reading someone's mind when their are fantasizing. 

Some people (men and women) fantasize about all sorts of extreme things when they are masturbating: If a women fantasizes about being ravished by pirates - that is fine, but she shouldn't need to TELL anyone that is what she is imagining. She doesn't actually want to be gang-raped, its just a fantasy.

But if someone has a porn collection it lets you see their fantasies. If a guy has trans-sexual porn, or school girl role-play porn or whatever, that is fantasy, no one should see what it is he fantasizes about.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> Well for whatever reason, I apparently lack some kind of internal barometer that "should" have made his porn stash a red-flag. I did suspect it all along, of course, but I never saw it first hand until just before we started to date. I don't ever expect to find someone, particularly a single man, to be without one. To me that seems almost too ridiculous to even be possible.


I don't think anything you've shared in your dating years STOOD OUT ENOUGH TO predict what you are dealing with now... 

I've said this on that other thread... my husband had 300 Playboy magazines under his bed when we met, he collected them at flea markets, even sold them.... I didn't think a whole lot of it really... (& I was supposed to be a christian even!)... I could have jumped to the conclusion -he's a pervert ... I'll never be enough.. what if he has an addiction.. I guess I didn't go there...

Some dabblers will become addicts.. some will stay on a "moderate" -even "low scale" course where it's never an issue at all...not stealing the intimacy between a couple... I feel one has to look at other things at play...

Not just sneaking some porn here & there...like if he's a man who wants to be alone a lot, to the point you don't feel special in his life ...did his affection start to wane...and with it, his enthusiasm to connect physically.... A woman will start to wonder...what happened, doesn't he want me? 

On the other hand.. if a man starts complaining he isn't getting enough, and is being rejected often.. this could lead him down a path to trying to fill the void with porn..

I would seek to know if he's a man who craves the emotional in sex.. Not everyone does, they may not even need it... many posts here I've read that didn't even know men cared about this .. so what happens with a man like that.. when resentment sets in, or misunderstanding.. if he doesn't crave/miss the intimacy/ the bonding, wouldn't it be easier somehow for such men, to jack it to a computer screen.

Men who crave the bonding aspect in sex / love making.. this would not fulfill them, it would be hollow in comparison. 

EverythingU.RNot...would you say, in the beginning, all this was at play...he cared about the intimacy you & he shared.. then something got lost? 

What about Resentment.. (still thinking of the roots here)....experts say Unresolved Resentment causes more sexual / emotional disconnect over anything else..
.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Hate to burst your bubble but they are foam bats. There to remind me to put down the 2x4.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I should change my avatar....



I'll have to admit I've been wondering what the heck your avatar was. I'm a painter so it really threw me off. lol


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

I never understood the whole porn thing. If you're with a woman, then the "real thing" is better than just eye candy and if you're in a sexless marriage, then why would you want to pour "salt in the wounds", in watching someone else do what you are missing?

Maybe it's just me, I can't hardly stand to be around romantic couples for the same reasons. If I can't have it, I don't want to see or think about it. Out of sight, out of mind


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

woundedwarrior said:


> I never understood the whole porn thing. If you're with a woman, then the "real thing" is better than just eye candy and if you're in a sexless marriage, then why would you want to pour "salt in the wounds", in watching someone else do what you are missing?
> 
> Maybe it's just me, I can't hardly stand to be around romantic couples for the same reasons. If I can't have it, I don't want to see or think about it. Out of sight, out of mind


In a sexless marriage, or if your drive is higher then what you are getting, if you still need to get a release watching porn can assist with. I don't really view that as pouring salt on the wound.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> I try not to hold grudges, but he knows me pretty well, and he knows what my normal is... And I can and do enjoy him reaching my cervix... It can be an incredible feeling.... But this hurt, his "pounding" away took away my breath away for a moment (and not in a good way) before I could say something...
> 
> This is another frustrating thing for me as well.. anytime I might offer some constructive information (I.e. "I really like it when you're rough, but not 'too' rough because that can be painful") He may respond with "Fine, we just won't have sex anymore." ??? His polarized thinking just kills me sometimes. It's either black or white, and it drives me INSANE....


Have you tried the doughnut or donut or however it's spelled? It's a doughnut made of soft rubber or plastic, it's worn like a c0ck ring, and acts as a spacer so the man can go as hard as he wants without risking going deep enough to cause pain.

It really seems like your H is a bit oversensitive to constructive criticism. Has he always been that way? If not, do you think he's become that way because he feels hurt, rejected, frustrated?

I imagine being a guy who loves a woman, likes a certain style of sex, likes porn, etc. If my lover disapproved, I imagine I'd feel hurt and rejected. I also imagine I'd feel frustrated if we were unable to work out our differences. And, just as a human, if my partner also criticized my performance in that state, I would probably be a bit...sensitive.




EverythingU.RNot said:


> lol! Well...I don't watch porn. If I do, it's of my hubby. But when I discover what he's watching, I watch it too, to get an objective feel for it. I can't give him reasons I dislike something if I don't actually see what it is that he watched...
> 
> And... I'm never opposed to kink. I'm definitely the more adventurous one here..


When you watch porn with him, do you go into it with an open mind? Are you watching for what you dislike and disapprove of so that you can cite examples when you tell him how much you don't like porn?

Have you ever sat down with him and spent some time watching porn together and talking about the things you like?



EverythingU.RNot said:


> I do agree. I clarified earlier that the time and intimacy taken away when my husband resorts to PMO is my primary complaint, aside the fact that I set a clear boundary before I would even start dating him, that I do not approve of it within a serious relationship. (And we had a good long talk about all the specifics so he is 100% unable to play dumb or find a loophole).
> 
> Yes, my expectations may have been a bit high, but no one put a gun to his head to make him date/marry me.


Has he ever explained why he "resorts to porn"? Is he looking for a quick release because he's tired and doesn't have the energy to please you, too? Is he looking for a certain type of stimulation? Is he going solo because he thinks you'd just say no? Does he want something that you have already said isn't on the table or that he's afraid to ask you for?

Does he feel safe with you? It's difficult to talk about our deepest sexual needs, desires, fantasies. Especially when they are "nasty" or "dirty" or "wrong". If he thinks you'll be angry at him, that you'll think less of him, that you'll not want him because of what flips his switches, he won't feel comfortable being totally honest and you'll never reach a place where you're both content.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

EllisRedding said:


> In a sexless marriage, or if your drive is higher then what you are getting, if you still need to get a release watching porn can assist with. I don't really view that as pouring salt on the wound.


This is true, I used to be high drive, but if you quit driving the car, it tends to not start anymore and honestly if you aren't going to drive, why even start the engine? I've always needed emotional closeness more than physical release, I know totally un guy like and just my luck?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

woundedwarrior said:


> This is true, I used to be high drive, but if you quit driving the car, it tends to not start anymore and honestly if you aren't going to drive, why even start the engine? I've always needed emotional closeness more than physical release, I know totally un guy like and just my luck?


Nah, I hear ya. I am the same way. When I went through sexless periods I preferred to keep the engine in the shop than to just take it out for a tune up periodically.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Mr.Fisty said:


> If I had a pornstar name, it would be Throbbin Woody.


*giggle*



Cletus said:


> Dumbass. You already have a porn star name.


*more giggles*



Mr.Fisty said:


> Yeah, but Throbbin Woody sounds sooo much better. Now I have a regret in this life. Perhaps I should ask a mod to get that changed.


*outright laughter*

I think most of us assumed that if you were feeling "fisty", there would be "throbbin wood" involved already.:grin2:



Buddy400 said:


> Gosh, that sound like women might actually have some control over their sexual lives. That sounds, what's the word, empowering.
> 
> I thought you were supposed to be a victim.


I never got that. The way a woman will stay with a man who will not or cannot sexually satisfy her.

Before everyone dogpiles me, I get it if we're talking a long term committed relationship where a medical condition or accident has caused damage and traditional sex isn't possible. I certainly wouldn't leave DH if he was physically unable to have sex with me.

That said, I wouldn't have married DH if he wasn't consistently the best sex of my life. Back when I was single, I'd give a guy a chance. Two chances if I really liked him. But if we didn't _really_ click sexually, I couldn't think of him as a potential partner.

I've been told since I was 16 that dumping a guy because the sex is so-so or non-existent made me a totally cruel and shallow b!tch. I never thought so. I don't think it's shallow to expect a sexual relationship to include great sex. I don't think it's cruel to tell a guy that we just don't click and move on. Cruel would be keeping him around.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> I think most of us assumed that if you were feeling "fisty", there would be "throbbin wood" involved already.:grin2:


 If anyone receives a mr. fisty, they would be walking funny for a week. Kinda like riding a horse, or having the horse ride you. Was that an innuendo? I don't know since I am innocent like an angel. Check out my halo! > Oh no! How did that get there!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Mr.Fisty said:


> If anyone receives a mr. fisty, they would be walking funny for a week. Kinda like riding a horse, or having the horse ride you. Was that an innuendo? I don't know since I am innocent like an angel. Check out my halo! > Oh no! How did that get there!


Yeah, we know you're in on the joke. That's why you don't get to ask for a second porn name. "Who? Little ol' me?"


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm tired of hearing these blanket statements about what porn does to some men, how porn portrays some women, how some women think about sex because of porn.
> 
> If you partner is ignoring you, that's the issue. Not porn, not video games, not cabinet making.
> 
> ...


I just think it's sad that porn is such a sacred cow in this society that it must always be immune from criticism. Sorry folks, porn is always a-okay --any objection and *you're* the one with the problem.

The effects I've talked about are very real, and I get that no one wants to hear them because, you know, hooray porn. But they are very real and well documented. Not by everyone, of course, but common enough, and people have all kinds of misconceptions about sex, especially women's sexuality, that just keep being perpetuated.

And I get that this is not at all a problem for people who just love porn style sex and are quite happy with the heady mix of pain and pleasure, as MJEAN described it.

And in the end, I'm even glad that at least the objectification is evening out, and that so much more of it is just voluntary exhibitionism because all of that means there is less market for the completely unsavory exploitative and human trafficking sides of it.

And I get that you will see me as a complete and utter loser because the fact is I have never had a guy interested in treating me in any way other than like a porn star (as in to be used, despised, and discarded), or, like now, to put me second to those same porn stars.

But maybe this will at least help you understand why I think it perfectly legitimate to continue to question the message that porn teaches us in this society.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> The little face you put after writing this.... Perfect!
> 
> And wow. My husband does do many, obvious*things like this and if I were to say something he would tell me I'm crazy.
> 
> I'm not crazy, I just notice every little thing regardless if I want to know or am looking for it or not. He just isn't as detail oriented as he needs to be to trick me..... lol


My SO still gaslights me in this way. Pretending one thing while obviously doing another -- and claiming "transparency". And I tried everything: getting him to talk about his fantasies, asking him if he was happy with our sex life, experimenting, reading, asking begging, everything. But he apparently doesn't care. He wants what he wants, does what he wants.

That's why I gave up. For me it's something that I can't win, can't change, can't seem to have any impact at all. I could leave, but I figured I would end up with just more of the same, so I haven't bothered.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

I remember back in the mid 70's some friends of ours had found some porn movies on 8mm film. Maybe 8 or 9 movies and my wife and I and his wife and him thought OK were adults lets watch them. They were these old grainy black and white movies that looked like they were made in a cellar and the people in them looked like they were all homeless. They had sex in the films but some of the guys and one lady were wearing those glasses with the eyebrows and big nose and it was more comedy then anything else.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

always_alone said:


> My SO still gaslights me in this way.


This is incomprehensible to me. You are with a complete *******. Porn is not the problem. He is. Yet you maintain. It makes no sense.



> Pretending one thing while obviously doing another -- and claiming "transparency". And I tried everything: *getting him* to talk about his fantasies, asking him if he was happy with our sex life, experimenting, reading, asking begging, everything. But he apparently doesn't care. He wants what he wants, does what he wants.
> 
> That's why I gave up. For me it's something that I can't win, can't change, can't seem to have any impact at all. I could leave, but I figured I would end up with just more of the same, so I haven't bothered.


And the problem is you. You have no self esteem. So you stick with a **** and pretend that the problem is universal to men.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is incomprehensible to me. You are with a complete *******. Porn is not the problem. He is. Yet you maintain. It makes no sense.
> 
> 
> 
> And the problem is you. You have no self esteem. So you stick with a **** and pretend that the problem is universal to men.


I do not pretend the problem is universal to men. And I have never said so. Never. All I have said it that it's a problem. 

But okay, fine, porn cannot be criticized. It is super wonderful and no matter what, it is essential to the survival and well being of all humans. What I observe is unique only to me, there are no social messages, no repercussions of those social messages, absolutely nothing else to consider but how I brought every problem I have ever had on myself by my low self-esteem. No man has ever had misguided expectations about sex from porn, and no woman has ever been misinformed either. Women aren't being pushed more and more to do painful things, they've just always loved those things and think they are perfectly awesome. No person has ever suffered body image issues, and if they have it's all their damn fault for not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. No one else but my SO has ever hid anything, pretended to be other than he or she is, and the only possible explanation is that he is a complete a$$hole and I am a dimwit for staying with him. 

Happy now?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I do not pretend the problem is universal to men. And I have never said so. Never. All I have said it that it's a problem.


" I could leave, *but I figured I would end up with just more of the same*, so I haven't bothered. "



> But okay, fine, porn cannot be criticized.


Lots of people don't like it. Feel free to not like it. There are guys on here who agree with you.



> It is super wonderful and no matter what, it is essential to the survival and well being of all humans. What I observe is unique only to me, there are no social messages, no repercussions of those social messages, absolutely nothing else to consider but how I brought every problem I have ever had on myself by my low self-esteem. No man has ever had misguided expectations about sex from porn, and no woman has ever been misinformed either. Women aren't being pushed more and more to do painful things, they've just always loved those things and think they are perfectly awesome. No person has ever suffered body image issues, and if they have it's all their damn fault for not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. No one else but my SO has ever hid anything, pretended to be other than he or she is, and the only possible explanation is that he is a complete a$$hole and I am a dimwit for staying with him.
> 
> Happy now?


It is sad. Someone as smart as you should not wallow this much.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm tired of hearing these blanket statements about what porn does to some men, how porn portrays some women, how some women think about sex because of porn.
> 
> If you partner is ignoring you, that's the issue. Not porn, not video games, not cabinet making.
> 
> ...


I get your point and it is very good. I am not sure if OP is speaking of an addiction here but I do think that is where things become different. I guess you can use your same thinking here and same it's not the porn, it is the addiction an you would be correct. When you are dealing with someone who has an addiction, the addiction will always win, no matter what that addiction is to. Addiction has power over that person and the person will do what it takes to get his/her high from that addiction. they will safeguard it, lie about it, deny it is an issue. The person's life becomes entwined with the addiction and the spouse close to the addict will feel the pain of that addicts behavior. Again, in this particular situation, I don't know if we are talking addiction but addiction is a real issue.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I just think it's sad that porn is such a sacred cow in this society that it must always be immune from criticism. Sorry folks, porn is always a-okay --any objection and *you're* the one with the problem.


On this note I would like to comment. I CHOSE not to have a problem with it based on communication from and with my husband. I don't think anyone thinks it is a sacred cow. But I do think people misunderstand what it MEANS to many people.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> " I could leave, *but I figured I would end up with just more of the same*, so I haven't bothered. "


This was not intended as a claim about all men, but about my experience. 

It's not actually me who thinks my SO is an a$$, it's just the verdict of TAM. From my experience he is actually pretty normal. 




NobodySpecial said:


> It is sad. Someone as smart as you should not wallow this much.


I am not wallowing. I am giving up because it's tiring to be told again and again that something that is actually fairly well documented is all just because I have low self esteem or am a prude.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> One reason people lie about porn is that it is in some sense "fantasy". Someone's selection of porn may give a view into a very private area - like reading someone's mind when their are fantasizing.
> 
> Some people (men and women) fantasize about all sorts of extreme things when they are masturbating: If a women fantasizes about being ravished by pirates - that is fine, but she shouldn't need to TELL anyone that is what she is imagining. She doesn't actually want to be gang-raped, its just a fantasy.
> ...


A spouse however, may not be comfortable with such person's fantasy habits and I don't think thy have to be.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

always_alone said:


> This was not intended as a claim about all men, but about my experience.
> 
> It's not actually me who thinks my SO is an a$$, it's just the verdict of TAM. From my experience he is actually pretty normal.
> 
> ...


No I am telling you that you have low self esteem because you are giving up. I never called you a prude.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> On this note I would like to comment. I CHOSE not to have a problem with it based on communication from and with my husband. I don't think anyone thinks it is a sacred cow. But I do think people misunderstand what it MEANS to many people.


Yeah, I could choose the same thing if I wanted to, and probably received more or less the same communication as you did.

But I happen to think that this communication is mostly gaslighting (in my case at any rate), and is just because he wants his cake and to eat it too. So he tells me what he thinks I want to hear. Of course, I have other reasons for thinking this than my "low self esteem".


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Yeah, I could choose the same thing if I wanted to, and probably received more or less the same communication as you did.
> 
> But I happen to think that this communication is mostly gaslighting (in my case at any rate), and is just because he wants his cake and to eat it too. So he tells me what he thinks I want to hear. Of course, I have other reasons for thinking this than my "low self esteem".


But still you stay. With someone who is gas lighting you. Cuz you know. All men.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> No I am telling you that you have low self esteem because you are giving up. I never called you a prude.


No. Sorry, that got thrown in there because I have been called that before here for not jumping on the yay porn bandwagon. Didn't meant to put that on you. 

I have lots of reasons for giving up. It isn't low self esteem to face reality is it?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

always_alone said:


> No. Sorry, that got thrown in there because I have been called that before here for not jumping on the yay porn bandwagon. Didn't meant to put that on you.
> 
> I have lots of reasons for giving up. It isn't low self esteem to face reality is it?


It is low self esteem to give up on humanity because of the behavior of one asshat or the several asshats that you know. To live perpetually with someone who lies to you.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> But still you stay. With someone who is gas lighting you. Cuz you know. All men.


No, not all men. And I never said that. Never.

But because sometimes you have to face reality, and reality isn't what you want it to be.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> It is low self esteem to give up on humanity because of the behavior of one asshat or the several asshats that you know. To live perpetually with someone who lies to you.


It is better than being alone. At least for me. At least for now.

Sorry, OP, for the threadjack. I will bow out now, as I really don't want to make this about me. I was just trying to offer an empathetic ear and a different perspective.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

always_alone said:


> No, not all men. And I never said that. Never.
> 
> But because sometimes you have to face reality, and reality isn't what you want it to be.


What is reality? That being alone is scary? That there might not be a guy good enough for you? There never will be someone who values you if you don't. It is plain sad to me.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Some dabblers will become addicts.. some will stay on a "moderate" -even "low scale" course where it's never an issue at all...not stealing the intimacy between a couple... I feel one has to look at other things at play...
> 
> .. if a man starts complaining he isn't getting enough, and is being rejected often.. this could lead him down a path to trying to fill the void with porn.
> 
> ...


Good thoughts here.....I just wanted to add as this has been on here many times too. Again, not sure if this is what OP is dealing with however, some men have issues with intimacy and believe it or not, do not pursue their wives but instead do go to porn. This is something, for these men, that many times started in their young formative years when these young males should have been asking girls to go out but instead, fearing rejection fantasize instead. Once these habits are ingrained they do not just stop once a man starts dating or even gets married. and the efforts on the relationship[ are great. Usually these men expect the woman to lead, go to them. Male sex drive is on the average 8-10 higher than the female so if the male is expecting the woman to satisfy his needs and he is wanting for her and he gets offended because she doesn't have the same intense desire there is going to be issues but more than likely this male is not going to express that. he can barely go to his mate for sex, how is he going to express that?? Where does he go? Back to his safe porn.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I understand your objection to porn if you have been treated like that. There are of course a lot of men who watch porn an do not treat their partners badly.

I don't know the cause of the difference or if there is any way to recognize this very early in a relationship.

BTW: I don't see porn as a sacred cow. I don't wee people saying you "can't" object to it, they are (like me) disagreeing with the objections - which is quite different.






always_alone said:


> I just think it's sad that porn is such a sacred cow in this society that it must always be immune from criticism. Sorry folks, porn is always a-okay --any objection and *you're* the one with the problem.
> 
> The effects I've talked about are very real, and I get that no one wants to hear them because, you know, hooray porn. But they are very real and well documented. Not by everyone, of course, but common enough, and people have all kinds of misconceptions about sex, especially women's sexuality, that just keep being perpetuated.
> 
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Do you think there is a difference if the fantasy is just thought about, or if it is turned into watching specific types of porn?

I have fantasies that I would never share with anyone. Maybe I'm unusual, maybe not. To me fantasies really are very disconnected with reality - not really an indication of what someone actually wants.



AVR1962 said:


> A spouse however, may not be comfortable with such person's fantasy habits and I don't think thy have to be.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> What is reality? That being alone is scary? That there might not be a guy good enough for you? There never will be someone who values you if you don't. It is plain sad to me.


The reality is that I have spent most of my life alone. And I am very, very, very good at it. I am quite self-sufficient, know how to look after myself, make my own money, take care of myself. I don't need anyone at all. 

But, you know, sometimes it's nice to have a bit of company, and right now I prefer to have that company, and it is worth to me putting up with some of his issues. You made your choices; I made mine.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I just think it's sad that porn is such a sacred cow in this society that it must always be immune from criticism. Sorry folks, porn is always a-okay --any objection and *you're* the one with the problem.
> 
> The effects I've talked about are very real, and I get that no one wants to hear them because, you know, hooray porn. But they are very real and well documented. Not by everyone, of course, but common enough, and people have all kinds of misconceptions about sex, especially women's sexuality, that just keep being perpetuated.
> 
> ...


Well said....I think for men to truly understand what it is like to be female in connection to sex and porn they would have to step into our shoes. For many men, women man sex. Women do not represent relationships, getting to truly know that person, it is sex. That is what they are after, that is their goal, once they use it and abuse it then they are done with it and cast it aside like they were nothing and they are on to the next.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I'm sorry, you have probably posted in other threads and I don't want to derail this one, but it is rarely a good idea to "give up". It may be that you really have no way out, in which case you have my sympathy, but I hope you have really thought about how to make things better. 



always_alone said:


> No. Sorry, that got thrown in there because I have been called that before here for not jumping on the yay porn bandwagon. Didn't meant to put that on you.
> 
> I have lots of reasons for giving up. It isn't low self esteem to face reality is it?


----------



## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

always_alone said:


> My SO still gaslights me in this way. Pretending one thing while obviously doing another -- and claiming "transparency". And I tried everything: getting him to talk about his fantasies, asking him if he was happy with our sex life, experimenting, reading, asking begging, everything. But he apparently doesn't care. He wants what he wants, does what he wants.
> 
> That's why I gave up. For me it's something that I can't win, can't change, can't seem to have any impact at all. I could leave, but I figured I would end up with just more of the same, so I haven't bothered.


Is your husband passive-aggressive?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I watch porn. I wouldn't watch if my wife were sexually available to me, but she isn't, despite my having done everything I can think of to improve the situation.
(not trying to thread jack about me, but saying that some people watch porn when other options aren't available to them).


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I just think it's sad that porn is such a sacred cow in this society that it must always be immune from criticism. Sorry folks, porn is always a-okay --any objection and *you're* the one with the problem.


What a monumental steaming pile of straw man.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I am giving up because it's tiring to be told again and again that something that is actually fairly well documented is all just because I have low self esteem or am a prude.


Oh my goodness, I have not heard that term in years! My ex-husband used to call me a prude. The man was a sex addict and we'd have sex sometimes 8 times in one day. He was pleasing himself on top of this. He was into porn, chasing after other women. This was a man who could not get enough and noting was going to satisfy him. He wanted to have 3-somes and swap wives which I would not and because I did not have his desire I was called a prude. I was threatened that he would go find sex elsewhere if I wasn't interested. he would go into physical rages if 3 days past. I got here I hated being with him but I didn't want him to wander so I would just shut my mouth and go thru with whatever he wanted to do. He wanted these big 3-ring circus type acts, he wanted me to dance naked for him like I was a stripper, he wanted to take nude pics, wanted to have sex everywhere....it was crazy!

7 years into our marriage I caught him with another woman and then found out that he had cheated our entire marriage....with the amount of frequency mentioned and me trying to satisfy him so h wouldn't wander. After that, I vowed never again would I submit to keep a man happy. If a man is a cheat that is not my issue. If a man has an addiction his spouse will never be a priority. I was an object, just another thrill to be used just like all the rest.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> It is sad. Someone as smart as you should not wallow this much.


YES! YES! YES!

AA, PLEASE do something to try and get out of this hole you're in.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> YES! YES! YES!
> 
> AA, PLEASE do something to try and get out of this hole you're in.


If you have any actual advice that isn't "he's an a$$hole, dump him already" or "yay porn, accept it, he's a man", then I'm all ears.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

always_alone said:


> If you have any actual advice that isn't "he's an a$$hole, dump him already" or "yay porn, accept it, he's a man", then I'm all ears.


We should start with what would you find acceptable between those two binary choices.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

always_alone said:


> If you have any actual advice that isn't "he's an a$$hole, dump him already" or "yay porn, accept it, he's a man", then I'm all ears.


Does he make you happy? How does he make you feel about yourself? Do you see a future with him? No to any of these, then ask yourself why you are still with him (sorry, don't know much about your backstory except you don't seem all that happy)


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
You have probably discussed this before, but it may have been a while ago. Maybe a new thread to describe your situation to see if anyone has ideas.

I don't remember enough to know why dumping him isn't an option if he is not treating you well and not making you happy.



always_alone said:


> If you have any actual advice that isn't "he's an a$$hole, dump him already" or "yay porn, accept it, he's a man", then I'm all ears.


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## Nynaeve (Jun 19, 2013)

The piling on is getting absurd at this point, guys. AA is just expressing her opinion. Accusations of low self esteem and turning the conversation to her particular situation is no more logically sound than the alleged strawman arguments.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

always_alone said:


> If you have any actual advice that isn't "he's an a$$hole, dump him already" or "yay porn, accept it, he's a man", then I'm all ears.


Love yourself. That is my advice to you. You are actually an amazing person. But what I read here says your hurt. Even maybe broken. It it tough to sit in internet land and see that. You are smart. Caring. 

Oh and come to NE for a hug.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Oh and DON'T accept it. If it is not you, then don't. Just don't.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Nynaeve said:


> The piling on is getting absurd at this point, guys. AA is just expressing her opinion. Accusations of low self esteem and turning the conversation to her particular situation is no more logically sound than the alleged strawman arguments.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you! 

Yes, please all. Let's direct our questions to the OP who started this thread. I will sit quietly on the sidelines and if there is anything for me to glean, I will glean it.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Love yourself. That is my advice to you. You are actually an amazing person. But what I read here says your hurt. Even maybe broken. It it tough to sit in internet land and see that. You are smart. Caring.
> 
> Oh and come to NE for a hug.


Thanks, NS! Nice of you to say. But yes, hurt.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

always_alone said:


> If you have any actual advice that isn't "he's an a$$hole, dump him already" or "yay porn, accept it, he's a man", then I'm all ears.


Do you believe that we teach others how to treat us by allowing or objecting to how they already treat us?

Do you agree that your highly traumatic past has negatively shaped your opinion of yourself?

Do you think that your negative opinion of yourself, and don't claim otherwise, whispers in your ear that you're not going to get anything better and this worthless POS is the best you can hope for?

You're like Eeyore AA. Your negative thinking and pessimistic outlook on life is what is keeping you unhappy. My god you such an intelligent woman, with a great sense of humor and huge capacity for caring for others you do not deserve to be treated the way you allow the POS to treat you. But you reply with your typical self depricating remarks that leaves everyone scratching their head...how can this be?

No, the problem isn't porn. The problem is you not dealing the **** you know is keeping you down. Porn is no sacred cow but neither is it the evil you've made it out to be.

Because like I said, your problem isn't porn, your problem is your tolerance for being treated as if you are worthless and stupid and you are neither!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Do you believe that we teach others how to treat us by allowing or objecting to how they already treat us?
> 
> Do you agree that your highly traumatic past has negatively shaped your opinion of yourself?
> 
> ...


You know, Anon, somehow I managed to refrain from calling your husband a worthless PoS when you were having problems with him. No matter how mad you were at him, no matter how many names you wanted to call him at the time. And I really, really wish that you would accord that same consideration to me. 

And for gawd's sake, what is it about making a critical comment about porn on this forum that makes everyone want to jump down your throat to tell you how all your problems are all your fault and how negative, unreasonable, and blame-shifting you are? 

And you say it isn't a sacred cow? 

Really?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

always_alone said:


> And for gawd's sake, what is it about making a critical comment about porn on this forum that makes everyone want to jump down your throat to tell you how all your problems are all your fault and how negative, unreasonable, and blame-shifting you are?
> 
> And you say it isn't a sacred cow?
> 
> Really?


It wasn't your comments about porn.

It was your comments surrounding the subject, your situation and your past posts caused the reaction.

But, at this point I think we should respect your wishes and drop the subject.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> It wasn't your comments about porn.
> 
> It was your comments surrounding the subject, your situation and your past posts caused the reaction.
> 
> But, at this point I think we should respect your wishes and drop the subject.


Fair enough, I suppose. I probably shouldn't have referred to my own experience at all, but really what I was intending was to illustrate that the repercussions of porn that I'm referring to aren't just academic. They don't just happen to someone else, or just to those rare losers and a$$holes.

They happen to real people. It is real women, real women like me that are -- how did you put it? As abundantly obvious that no man would (should, could) have any "real" interest in (except sex, of course)?

And real women who get told time and time again that having that great set of tits is actually where it's at, because without them you're completely invisible. No matter how smart or caring you are.

I appreciate all the kind thoughts I've received here, really I do. I just wish I had some way to better convey that I don't see this as about me, my life, or mistakes that I may, or may not, have made. I see these issues as real and worth discussing. And I think it only fair that these discussions also revel the negative, yet all too human side of the pornification of our society.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

always_alone said:


> You know, Anon, somehow I managed to refrain from calling your husband a worthless PoS when you were having problems with him. No matter how mad you were at him, no matter how many names you wanted to call him at the time. And I really, really wish that you would accord that same consideration to me.
> 
> And for gawd's sake, what is it about making a critical comment about porn on this forum that makes everyone want to jump down your throat to tell you how all your problems are all your fault and how negative, unreasonable, and blame-shifting you are?
> 
> ...



Point taken AA. I apologize. But I sure wish I wasn't angrier than you are. I will hence forth restrain myself, because you requested it. 

Porn is not the sacred cow. Can I blame Ben and Jerry for my ample ass? Can I blame coffee for my insomnia?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Point taken AA. I apologize. But I sure wish I wasn't angrier than you are. I will hence forth restrain myself, because you requested it.
> 
> Porn is not the sacred cow. Can I blame Ben and Jerry for my ample ass? Can I blame coffee for my insomnia?


Ha! You're awesome, Anon. But trust me, you are not angrier than I am. Not at all. We are just looking at things in much different ways.

You see personal responsibility, as in how dare he act that way, but the porn itself as nothing to do with it. I see it as him taking full advantage of what society has offered up to him on a silver platter: a universe of women who are nothing but objects of male gratification and whose pleasure and personality means nothing.

Why shouldn't he take full advantage of it? Especially if porn itself is completely neutral, inert, with no impact on the world around it, despite its ubiquity.

Another analogy to all of this could be gun control. Lots of people espouse the adage "guns don't kill people, people do" But personally, I'm more of the mindset that if there weren't guns everywhere, locked and loaded, there would probably be a lot fewer accidents where little kids are, for example, blowing away their brothers or sisters.

Put another way, if all porn were the Kama Sutra, with the focus squarely on sensuality, mutual pleasure, and spirituality, would the effects be the same? 

Personally, I'm inclined to think not. But that's not the world I live in.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

intheory said:


> This is how it is. I think Cletus has admonished us to basically just shut up and deal with it. Accept it.


I might be able to speak for Cletus; I can certainly speak for myself. I don't think anyone should "just shut up and deal with" anything one doesn't want to.

I think what we're saying is, with that POV, it's just going to be really, really hard to find a man that doesn't consume porn. And, if he gives it up "for you", he's probably just going to start hiding it. I'm sorry that's the way it is. But, if that's going to be your criteria, I just think you could use the information that there aren't many fish in that lake. 

I look at porn, and I'm an absolutely fvcking wonderful husband (for my wife).


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I know some men use porn to replace their partners, ant that is really hurtful. Similarly some women will masturbate and turn their partners down. Also bad.

Do people object to porn when it doesn't distort someone's idea of sex, and when they are not replacing their partners, but only using it when the partner has already turned them down?


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Stats show not all men consume porn. I also Believe men are able to empathise with women and understand why someone may object to it. 

I personally object to it because I believe it's unhealthy and unnatural. It's like the McDonalds of sex. I also believe it changes the way we view each other and sets unrealistic standards. 

Moreover many women are sex slaves and are trafficked every year, and a lot if those women end up in the sex industry and porn. Also many girls are under aged and start in the sex industry under 15 moving onto porn. These girls may seem to choose it but what has led them there? Often abuse and exploitation.

Also many women are raped and abused whilst making porn, fed drugs and manipulated, pressured and forced to do acts they never agreed to. 

There are also lots of studies that show men who watch porn regularly are less attracted to and satisfied with their wives or partners. 

Moreover when we have sex or masturbate oxytocin is released, and it's very powerful, it bonds us to our partners and if you are expending that oxytocin on a large array of strangers you taking that away from your relationship. You risk weaken ing your bond.

I could go on and on really, but I think if you make a commitment to be sexually faithful to your partner then you should be. For me that includes porn, when you watch porn you are consuming that porn instead of focusing on your partner and sex life, and I think it's a mistake.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I might be able to speak for Cletus; I can certainly speak for myself. I don't think anyone should "just shut up and deal with" anything one doesn't want to.
> 
> I think what we're saying is, with that POV, it's just going to be really, really hard to find a man that doesn't consume porn. And, if he gives it up "for you", he's probably just going to start hiding it. I'm sorry that's the way it is. But, if that's going to be your criteria, I just think you could use the information that there aren't many fish in that lake.
> 
> I look at porn, and I'm an absolutely fvcking wonderful husband (for my wife).


I think I might be able to speak for Cletus too, and probably should since InTheory seems have singled me out recently in several posts on this topic.

If you know anything about my style, you'll know that I'm a realist and a pragmatist to the core. There's no sense in denying life's realities. One of those realities is that if you leave a man alone in a room with a Playboy, at least one made before March of next year on a coffee table, 92 out of 100 will pick it up, have a look, and like what they see. Five or six will be gay, and maybe two just won't care. Now you can wail, gnash your teeth, and tear sack cloth all the day long, but you won't change this fact of life. 

Pornography doesn't make billions of dollars a year because it's a niche market with a few interested parties. It makes obscene profits because most (as in much more than half of all) men and no small number of women find some form that they enjoy watching. 

Does that make me a horrible person for pointing out reality? You decide. But I'm sure as hell not going to present to you a world that doesn't exist nor advise you to try to create one that you cannot sustain. Hence my advise to "just get over it" - because you really don't have all that much of a choice. 

Now that's a far cry from the recent characterization of me that has been painted here by some that this means you have the right to use it anytime, anywhere, no matter what in your relationship. Because I never said that. I don't even believe that. What I have said, and you may look this up in my history if your memory is faulty, is that the best policy is the Dan Savage recommended model - pretend you don't use porn, and your mate should pretend to believe you. Be respectful. Don't leave your browser open. Don't talk about it. Don't compare your spouse to anyone or anything you see in pornography. Don't let it replace satisfying sex with your living, breathing partner. Don't replace your spouse with your right hand. Use in moderation, just like you would anything in life. Your mate shouldn't go out of her way to try to catch you in the act. Be mutually respectful. 

So if you want to refer to my position on this topic, make sure you're referring to what I actually say and not some straw man to advance your argument. 

I too have been a decent husband now for a long time, to a woman who couldn't find her sexuality with a flashlight and a funnel. You want to tell me what I should think about this, that I'm a Neanderthal? Then you walk a couple of decades in my shoes.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

intheory said:


> And now, he is in his mid-50's with low testosterone. And not much of a sex drive; and I'm to be understanding. And the one sex toy that I got (a 5" dildo), he found it and threw it out the bedroom window; and was so angry at me, he wouldn't even talk about it for hours. Then finally accused me of "replacing him".
> 
> I'm not looking at other guys. I'm not wishing he was someone else. I miss him terrible and he says, "well I don't feel sexy much anymore". I can go without.


My SO gives me the double whammy. On one hand he's getting old, and I need to accept that he is changing, doesn't have the energy he used to, and this happens to all guys, don'tcha know. On the other hand, he watches porn every day because he likes it and it makes him "feel good".

He also gives me the Dan Savage line that Cletus quoted, pretends he doesn't, always claims it's "not important", "not that often", yadda, yadda, blah, blah. And wonders why I won't play along and pretend that he doesn't.

This is why I've given up. He's decided he's entitled to express and cultivate his sexuality however he wants, and I've decided what is good for the gander is good for the goose. I wait for him to be away to pursue my pleasures, I give free rein to my fantasies, and indeed don't even think of him anymore, even when we are having sex. He gets to do whatever he wants while I "pretend" he gives a **** about me? Well, I guess that means I get to do whatever I want. And he can "pretend" I give a **** about him.

TBH, I kinda wish my SO would accuse me of replacing him. I would like to have that conversation. But he doesn't seem to even notice or care. He's happy, I guess, and that's all that matters.

What I find most frustrating about TAM advice on this topic is that it is double-edged in the same sort of way, as in "you should dump that loser a$$hole because he doesn't treat you right", and then, haha, rubbing your face in the fact that the *reality* is that all guys will watch porn and if that bugs you, your only choice is to pretend it's not happening.

And I get there are lots of guys here using porn largely because it is their only outlet, and I get how frustrating that must be. All too well, in some respects. And so I also see why they are concerned to defend this as their entitlement. With no shared sexuality, the only choice left is an independent one.

I really wish, though, there wasn't this whole "rub your face into it" attitude here. I mean, left alone with pics of naked men, most women would also look and like what they see. But it doesn't mean, therefore, that they want to rub men's face in the fact that they should just "accept the reality" that they are just a c0ck in a long line of c0cks, and women have needs that they can't possibly meet, compete with or keep up with. That women's sexuality is always independent of their partner, and their eyes are always roving for the next hot fantasy.

KWIM?


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Personal said:


> Then why do you use the Internet? Since applying that logic you should likewise object to clothing, agriculture, education, buildings, computers, medical science and everything else that humans have ever invented, developed and or produced.
> 
> The creation and use of pornography is entirely natural!
> 
> ...


Riiight, no not everything humans do is good or natural, or non harmful. Sometimes we do things because they feel good not because they are good or good for us. It is probably a normal human behaviour to want to feel good, it's also normal to weigh up the value and harms of said actions. The danger with porn is not many speak out against it for fear of being shamed or called a prude etc but it's certainly not good for you, and their is a ton if evidence to show this. 

You also didn't touch on the subject of the treatment of women (and men too) in the industry, and the idea that it's ok to treat people like crap for our pleasure. I just am not OK with that, and I prefer to get off safe in the knowledge that no one has been exploited or harmed. 

No I don't think masturbation or imagination can be compared to pornography at all. 

I think you are clasping at straws to pick a part my post.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

Cletus said:


> If you know anything about my style, you'll know that I'm a realist and a pragmatist to the core. There's no sense in denying life's realities. One of those realities is that if you leave a man alone in a room with a Playboy, at least one made before March of next year on a coffee table, 92 out of 100 will pick it up, have a look, and like what they see. Five or six will be gay, and maybe two just won't care. Now you can wail, gnash your teeth, and tear sack cloth all the day long, _but you won't change this fact of life.
> _
> Pornography doesn't make billions of dollars a year because it's a niche market with a few interested parties. It makes obscene profits because most (as in much more than half of all) men and no small number of women find some form that they enjoy watching.
> 
> ...



That last paragraph made me laugh. I think many of those who are on here saying that not all porn use should be vilified, are in this camp, self included. Sometimes there are other reasons to stay in a marriage when the sex is not as great and/or as frequent as one would like. Sure we could separate, divorce, throw ultimatums. Or we could just watch some videos and use our hands for a while, as long as we still have hope for change. People have done crazier things for love.

i don't always agree with Cletus, but this post is great. very well said.


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## EverythingU.RNot (Sep 2, 2015)

Cletus said:


> that the best policy is the Dan Savage recommended model - pretend you don't use porn, and your mate should pretend to believe you. Be respectful. Don't leave your browser open. Don't talk about it. Don't compare your spouse to anyone or anything you see in pornography. Don't let it replace satisfying sex with your living, breathing partner. Don't replace your spouse with your right hand. Use in moderation, just like you would anything in life. Your mate shouldn't go out of her way to try to catch you in the act. Be mutually respectful.


I think I could get on with this as a fair compromise.

I'm not expecting my husband to wear blinders or be a flawless being.

The refusing sex, waiting for me to leave for work (I call it "waiting me out") and immediately jumping into hours of porn-watching... That is just plain crazy to me and I don't understand it. At all.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

AA I am curious about something. If he just up and unilaterally stopped out of deference to past communication, would it change anything? Would you then feel cared for?

I can't help but think porn is the smokescreen not the issue.


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## Bam-bam (Sep 24, 2015)

EverythingU.RNot said:


> How do you define what point, if any, does it becomes unacceptable? What point is it ok?
> 
> For those who do not take issue with porn, would you mind describing your relationship in general? Good? Bad?
> 
> ...


How much is acceptable? Personally, I think it depends on your partner's opinion only. 

Rrgardless, in my experience, porn can be damaging to a marriage. ...but it also can be pretty harmless as well. One big thing is that it can become a band aid for a lackluster sex life. If your sex life is unsatisfactory and you turn to porn to meet your needs, you are avoiding the real problem. If this habit of avoidance continues, you'll find that the problem may get worse. You may turn to porn more often because it's the easy fix. Problem is, it catches up to you. Eventually you may realize that you rarely have sex with your spouse.... and that you're ok with that... until one day, you aren't ok with that anymore but the problem has taken root and getting your sex life back up and running is now a BIG problem. 

I'm speaking from 10 years of experience by the way.

So, in my opinion, if porn is used to fill in the gaps of a reasonably good sex life then I don't see it as a big deal... assuming your spouse is ok with it.... and that you keep good tabs on it. (Ie, don't let it become addictive ... because it can be an addiction for some)

On the other hand, if you are using porn to avoid talking about a dead bedroom situation with your spouse, it will only prolong the conflict that is there. ...and the conflict will someday come out... and probably in a dreadful fashion if it sits unattended too long. (Affair, divorce, etc). Porn is a band aid on a growing and gaping wound in those situations. it will only help for a while. You are better off treating the wound before it grows too large for the band aid. 

Talking about this stuff with your spouse can be difficult but it's really the only way to go. It may sound cliche, but communication is so very important.

As for the violence part, I'm not much help there because that stuff also sickens me and I have no real world experience to draw on for you.


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