# A question to women Csa victims by other women



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

My wife is a Csa victim at the hands of another woman. I only discovered this a couple years ago after being married for 10 years. It was no surprise as if always suspected something traumatic happened to my wife. It wasn't that hard to figure out as she is extremely sexually repressed, never ever ever initiates always leaving me to do the work which would generally require about 10 attempts before she sort of gives in, rolls over and just sort of checks out during sex. For me this really makes for an unfulfilling sex life. Although there have been bouts of good times it's still very challenging to always be the initiator. If I don't have the energy to put 110% into any romantic encounter I'm left feeling like a dog trying to get off leaving me feeling like a primate. Recently I've not had the energy to put into making everything perfect and frankly this year completely sucks. Let's call it like it is - a sexless year...again.

I do know that my wife was as a child, taken advantage of by another grown women. I'm wondering if any women here can shed light on such an experience. I wonder how it affects the victim. I specifically wonder how it affects the victim's perspective on ex in general as well as homosexuality. I wonder of such an experience can cause a women to become more prone to lesbian fantasies. I ask that because I often have wondered if my wife is in fact gay. She takes huge interest in gay rights so much so that she has volunteered time with gay organizations, is nearly obsessed with any television program concerning gay culture, gay lifestyle etc and sometimes insists one of our kids is gay. The most compelling reason for me to believe / wonder this is a vacation we took some time ago where we were in a jacuzzi in a hotel room, I flicked through the tv channels then arrived at one of those hotel porn channels which happened to have a lesbian scene on. For kick, I left or on for a few minutes as I can honestly say, I have never seen her become so aroused, within minutes we we going at it. At the time it didn't really phase me as I was just happy to be engaged with my wife, however it's always haunted me and made me wonder if the thoughts I've always suspected are actually true.

Could it be that my wife is gay, has always been so and is just living a life of shame due to her childhood experiences? I seriously would not be surprised. Her personality generally speaking is that of a very assertive person which, when juxtaposed against her sexual expressions seems very much a mismatch. Anyone would assume upon first meeting her that in concert with her general personality would be very assertive and outspoken from a sexual perspective when I fact her sexuality is like a jealously guarded safety lockbox. I sometimes think it's a miracle she actually has sex with me. 

With that said, I am really reaching the end of my ropes. I so do not want to continue a lifestyle of begging and looking forward to 20 minutes a quarter of sticking it into a warm hole (which is how it feels). Perhaps I'm better off finding a group dedicated to this subject but thought here would be a good starting point. Tia !
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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Has she been in therapy? If not, she needs to be so she can deal with the hurt and pain she is feeling. If she doesn't get some help this will be her life, and yours! If she is not willing to seek some help, then you will need to make a choice as to how you want to live the rest of your life.


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## MotherNature (May 9, 2014)

Though I cant give you my perspective of being abused

I will say that im straight, but lesbian porn turns me on. In my wild crazy years I experimented with females but its just crazy fantasies. 

Another thought to ponder is if she is so openly active in gay rights and such wouldnt she be open if she was gay?

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

CallaLily said:


> Has she been in therapy? If not, she needs to be so she can deal with the hurt and pain she is feeling. If she doesn't get some help this will be her life, and yours! If she is not willing to seek some help, then you will need to make a choice as to how you want to live the rest of your life.


She has never sought therapy - she is too tough for that - almost like the stereotypical macho man so no, it's something she prefers to just bury deep and forget about it. Problem is that it manifests in ways that she doesn't realize ...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

MotherNature said:


> Though I cant give you my perspective of being abused
> 
> I will say that im straight, but lesbian porn turns me on. In my wild crazy years I experimented with females but its just crazy fantasies.
> 
> ...


Interesting that you enjoy lesbian porn. Thanks for that perspective. Your other thought is logical right! I sometimes tend to think her active participation in lgb groups is a proxy way to be part of the community without having to admit the thing that rock everyone's world. So yes it's a good thought but there's so much else going on with her including mother issues (fear of her mothers reaction to anything out of the norm). In a way her participation is the perfect cover precisely for the reason you site. It's a mystery !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

LnghrnFan said:


> Has your wife ever gone to counseling for the abuse she endured? That would be the number one thing she should do if she wants to find healing. It's really important! Sexual abuse usually leaves long-lasting emotional scars, and they have to be dealt with so that the other areas in her life can be healthy (particularly in the area of sex).
> 
> For you, I would strongly recommend you get a copy of the book When a Woman You Love was Abused. I think it will be really helpful as you try to understand what she's going through. Here is a link: Christianbook.com: When a Woman You Love Was Abused: A Husband's Guide to Helping Her Overcome Childhood Sexual Molestation: Dawn Scott Jones: 9780825429750. Good luck!


Thanks for the recommendation. As mentioned above, no, there is no desire to seek therapy. She prefers to 'just get on living' and seems to think at least for her everything is fine. Never mind the fact that her husband who has expressed how incredibly important it is to feel wanted has had sex 4 times in the last 5 months each time requiring near begging - I'm at my breaking point mainly because I have made it perfectly clear that I don't want to feel this way. Not to mention the fact that I take on more responsibility around the house than most other guys and provide a pretty comfortable environment for her not having to work cook or clean. I don't know what else I could so other than make it possible for her to do absolutely nothing all the time :/
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## Csquare (Jan 14, 2014)

Depending on what age your wife was abused, I would suspect that the trauma would re-wire her response to sexuality in such a way to be "abnormal." And any adaptive behaviors she subsequently assumed may very well be distorted and unhealthy.

EMDR is one therapy used for re-wiring the brain in response to trauma. It involves tapping and some have found it to be helpful for developing better coping strategies.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Kendal, lot of straight women get off on lesbian porn. A woman's sexuality is much more fluid than a man's for two reasons.

1. Homophobia is worse for men than for women. Women are encouraged to explore their whole selves and that includes forming strong attachments to friends, which also includes the freedom to be affectionate with those friends.

2. Women tend to be responsive lovers so they respond to the eroticism, the affection and the feelings conveyed in porn.

I would suggest you go with whatever makes her feel safe enough to let her sexual self out. Don't feel like you're not doing it for her, although I can understand jumping to that conclusion. 

Having an early sexual trauma will not make anyone gay, or straight, or Bi.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

KendalMintcake said:


> She has never sought therapy - she is too tough for that - almost like the stereotypical macho man so no, it's something she prefers to just bury deep and forget about it. Problem is that it manifests in ways that she doesn't realize ...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's time to stand up in your marriage. She might think she's too "tough" for therapy but she's not really tough at all. Her marriage is falling by the wayside because she wants to be 
"Tough" and not deal with these serious issues. Tell her you feel it's a good idea she seek out therapy. If she won't go, then you need to go for yourself. Tell her you want to go for you so you can 
Learn ways of coping with living with a CSA victim who will not seek help not only for themselves but for the sake of the marriage. Then tell her it may come down to you having to make a choice 
In the marriage and what you will and will not live with the rest of your life! BTW I don't mean you need to tell her these things to see what she may or may not do. I mean you really do need to seek therapy for yourself. You are living with someone who was damaged in so many ways and their damage is now damaging you and the marriage. And yes you will end up having to make a choice for your life one way or the other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Kendal, lot of straight women get off on lesbian porn. A woman's sexuality is much more fluid than a man's for two reasons.
> 
> 1. Homophobia is worse for men than for women. Women are encouraged to explore their whole selves and that includes forming strong attachments to friends, which also includes the freedom to be affectionate with those friends.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to say that perhaps this trauma made her gay, I'm saying, what if he always was and because if the trauma, feels too much shame to be who she is meant to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

MotherNature said:


> I will say that im straight, but lesbian porn turns me on. In my wild crazy years I experimented with females but its just crazy fantasies.


So you have slept with women and enjoy lesbian porn. Nothing wrong with that at all, except that you say you are "straight". 

Let's just say that you and I must have a VERY different definition of that word! 



> _Another thought to ponder is if she is so openly active in gay rights and such wouldnt she be open if she was gay?_


Not everyone is open about it. After all, in all honesty, it sounds like you are not open about your own bisexuality.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

KendalMintcake said:


> As mentioned above, no, there is no desire to seek therapy. She prefers to 'just get on living' and seems to think at least for her everything is fine. Never mind the fact that her husband who has expressed how incredibly important it is to feel wanted has had sex 4 times in the last 5 months each time requiring near begging - I'm at my breaking point mainly because I have made it perfectly clear that I don't want to feel this way.


Have you made it clear to her that you are near the "breaking point"? 

You are her husband, and (I assume) you two live together. If things are that bad for you, then they can't be "fine" for her. You should make it clear that your marriage is a partnership and it isn't going to work unless you are both happy. 

If she doesn't want to go to therapy or at least marriage counseling after that, then frankly, she's not interested in fixing this problem. Then you have to decide if you can live this way for the rest of your life or not.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I am a man and very turned OFF by gay porn. Which makes it difficult to understand how a straight woman could be turned on by lesbian porn. But for me seeing guy's junk in a straight porn is ok, so none of it makes any sense! I wouldn't read anything into a person's sexual orientation by the porn they like unless it has a distinct and consistent character. Even then it might represent only one aspect of their sexuality, and it might be one they acknowledge they prefer to keep a fantasy rather than act on.

According to several therapists I have spoken to, women who were sexually abused as children have a higher rate of lesbian experimentation as adults. The confusions about sex and sexuality due to the abuse can lead them to wonder if perhaps they are lesbian. They desire sex but they have negative emotions when they think about sex with men. They are too traumatized to deal with sex with a man, so they explore sex with women. After they do some healing they may then return to a solely heterosexual life. This is a generalization of female CSA victims, and thus reflects the more common situation where the abuser is a male.

KendalMint, you are stuck in the loop of trying to figure out what is wrong with her and then trying to figure out how to fix it. This is the wrong approach imho. The problem isn't that she was abused or that she might be lesbian. The problem is that she is not a fully participating loving wife in your marriage. This is what she has to fix. My belief is that she will require good long term trauma therapy in order to heal. Until she does that I don't believe she can be the wife you desire. Also, and as importantly, she cannot be the happy and fulfilled person she could be if she does not get good trauma therapy. But be that as it may, the bottom line is that she is not meeting your basic needs in the marriage.

I bet the problem is not so much the lack of sex but a lack of emotional connection. You can cajole her into providing sexual services for you, but it feels empty. You cannot cajole her into emotional intimacy. Her trauma blinds her to what emotional intimacy looks like in an adult relationship.

I think the way you get progress is to tell her you are unhappy and that your basic emotional needs are not being met. For you, sex is about the emotional connection not the biological event of ejaculation. My wife said she thought sex for a man was just he needed to "spurt it out". Uh, if that were true then I wouldn't care whether I had sex with her or just masturbated, right? But yet I crave sex with her. Your wife probably has similar misunderstandings about sexuality and emotional intimacy.

So you tell her what your needs are and tell her you are not happy in the marriage. I think you attempt to get her to participate meaningfully in marriage therapy with someone you have pre-screened who has an expertise in sex abuse therapy. Then with luck the MC becomes an entryway into your wife seeing for herself that trauma therapy would help her. Not that it would help you or the marriage, but that she sees that she would benefit herself from trauma therapy.

You can't tell her you think she needs therapy. CSA victims are extremely emotionally brittle about this.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

KendalMintcake said:


> I'm not trying to say that perhaps this trauma made her gay, I'm saying, what if he always was and because if the trauma, feels too much shame to be who she is meant to be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry I missed that.

Well that is an interesting question to ponder and worry over.

I used to wonder if my H was gay. Long story but the short gist is, because I never felt like he was attracted to me while other men made it very clear that they were, I wondered if he was gay.

What I learned was that my husband was emotionally repressed and did not know how to communicate his attraction to me. I wonder if your wife has a similar block. She simply doesn't know what it is you are looking for in terms of proof of attraction.

You know that she is sexually inhibited, perhaps even repressed. She might not even be aware that she has these feelings of attraction toward you. Expressing attraction is generally just a verbal acknowledgement of aesthetic appeal. But sexual attraction is deeper and more complicated, not to mention fraught with scary feelings for a CSA.

I literally taught my husband how to express these kinds of feelings. We are now a year into me being extremely detailed and perscriptive about compliments, when, how ... He is heads and shoulders better than he ever was!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Thor said:


> I am a man and very turned OFF by gay porn. Which makes it difficult to understand how a straight woman could be turned on by lesbian porn. But for me seeing guy's junk in a straight porn is ok, so none of it makes any sense! I wouldn't read anything into a person's sexual orientation by the porn they like unless it has a distinct and consistent character. Even then it might represent only one aspect of their sexuality, and it might be one they acknowledge they prefer to keep a fantasy rather than act on.
> 
> According to several therapists I have spoken to, women who were sexually abused as children have a higher rate of lesbian experimentation as adults. The confusions about sex and sexuality due to the abuse can lead them to wonder if perhaps they are lesbian. They desire sex but they have negative emotions when they think about sex with men. They are too traumatized to deal with sex with a man, so they explore sex with women. After they do some healing they may then return to a solely heterosexual life. This is a generalization of female CSA victims, and thus reflects the more common situation where the abuser is a male.
> 
> ...


:iagree: every word.

Except... I'm a very sexual person but lesbian porn does nothing for me. I find it annoying actually. Gay porn, I like. I guess I just really like men!


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## MotherNature (May 9, 2014)

Theseus said:


> MotherNature said:
> 
> 
> > I will say that im straight, but lesbian porn turns me on. In my wild crazy years I experimented with females but its just crazy fantasies.
> ...


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I believe it is the case that first sexual experiences leave an imprint. Men are well known to act out in homosexual ways after being abused by a man as a child. Their fear coupled with the sexual excitement causes a heightened response. They didn't ask for it but what is left is a threshold for excitement that is difficult to recreate. Getting turned on requires pushing similar buttons. They are programmed in a way.

Why would women be any different?


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Sorry I missed that.
> 
> Well that is an interesting question to ponder and worry over.
> 
> ...


She is definitely repressed sexually every once in a while (meaning years) she'll surprise me and show me that we gets it. She knows exactly what I like and what I appreciate - for example, surprising me on my birthday by telling me to meet her at a hotel and when I arrive she is wearing all the crazy things that turn me on. These things happen and give me hope, I don't go overboard and emphasize forever that I want more of this, I simply let her know how much I enjoyed whatever she did, and then it's dormancy for ridiculous stretches of time. What really annoys me however is when I do express what's important for me such as unsolicited expressions of love (ie not the customary 'I love you' before I leave in the morning) she comes up with every excuse in the world why it is not important and not in her nature, and then that very afternoon she smothers the kids with unsolicited love. At one point years ago I was accused of giving the kids attention and not her - this was when I was in a one year drought and was really pissed - I fail to understand how she can exhibit the same behavior by smothering them and ignoring me - there's no reason to do this out of spite as she leads a very comfortable lifestyle and receives plenty of attention from me - it's just not reciprocated and I tend to feel that it boils down to sheer laziness - I'm to blame for fostering an environment where 90% of responsibility across the board is on me - most would not believe the balance of responsibility - if there were cameras and this was a reality show it would be an outrage. So yeah, I have in some ways, many ways nurtured the situation to the point where my expression of what I need met with easy rebuttal. So how does one change, is change even possible? One thing is for sure it doesn't happen overnight!
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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Thor said:


> I am a man and very turned OFF by gay porn. Which makes it difficult to understand how a straight woman could be turned on by lesbian porn. But for me seeing guy's junk in a straight porn is ok, so none of it makes any sense! I wouldn't read anything into a person's sexual orientation by the porn they like unless it has a distinct and consistent character. Even then it might represent only one aspect of their sexuality, and it might be one they acknowledge they prefer to keep a fantasy rather than act on.
> 
> According to several therapists I have spoken to, women who were sexually abused as children have a higher rate of lesbian experimentation as adults. The confusions about sex and sexuality due to the abuse can lead them to wonder if perhaps they are lesbian. They desire sex but they have negative emotions when they think about sex with men. They are too traumatized to deal with sex with a man, so they explore sex with women. After they do some healing they may then return to a solely heterosexual life. This is a generalization of female CSA victims, and thus reflects the more common situation where the abuser is a male.
> 
> ...


Everything you say is right on except for the point stating that I am trying to fix her. No way I know I can't fix her and only she can, I am just trying to understand what the heck is going on in that head. By understanding, I have better chances of getting my needs heard since I would be able to better navigate the complex twisted neurons that exist in her head. Generally speaking if you understand someone's thought process it makes communication so much more effective as you know when to be compassionate when to be stern etc. as for the emotional attachment that part is spot on. She lacks ability to express except in words, I've read some of the most amazing things in cards, letters etc and then when you interact with the person who wrote this stuff it's like a strange mismatch sometimes. By here are so many other factors that link into her personality many if which stem from childhood especially with the sort of discipline she grew up with (beyond the whole Csa thing). It seems the only time I can ever get through is reaching breaking point then it's 'I'll do anything'. Well I don't feel I should have to get to that point and besides after getting to that point there's a sort of disinterest on my behalf of receiving forced emotional connectivity. I need unsolicited emotional connections - as simple as that. However I have been mocked for expressing that and been almost cross-examined for being 'needy' wow sometimes it makes me wonder of I'm living in the twilight zone !
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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

She doesn't want to be controlled or compelled to act based on what you want. She has to work up an enormous amount of energy when she does surprise you and float your boat. Asking her to do it is too much for her. She can't perform on command. She probably has to psyche herself up to give you those special moments so much so that she is literally spent four days afterward.

I really think you have to accept her as she is. She will never be able to spontaneously give you what you want because it is too difficult for her. You can look at that as controlling our you can appreciate that when she surprises you it took an enormous amount of planning and energy on her part and that the only reason it happened is because she loves you and wants to please you. And at the same time she feels bad that it isn't easier for her and that she disappoints you so much and that she is so conflicted when she manages to pull it off that no matter how good it is it is never good enough.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> She doesn't want to be controlled or compelled to act based on what you want. She has to work up an enormous amount of energy when she does surprise you and float your boat. Asking her to do it is too much for her. She can't perform on command. She probably has to psyche herself up to give you those special moments so much so that she is literally spent four days afterward.
> 
> I really think you have to accept her as she is. She will never be able to spontaneously give you what you want because it is too difficult for her. You can look at that as controlling our you can appreciate that when she surprises you it took an enormous amount of planning and energy on her part and that the only reason it happened is because she loves you and wants to please you. And at the same time she feels bad that it isn't easier for her and that she disappoints you so much and that she is so conflicted when she manages to pull it off that no matter how good it is it is never good enough.


Thats a very astute summary of our dynamic. A couple of years ago I learned that if she has time to psyche up it makes for a better experience for us both. At the same time it can sadden me to think she has to mentally prepare like one would for a nasty confrontation and makes me feel like a monster. That's odd right, I'm made to feel like a monster, the se word you'd use to describe her perpetrator. On one hand it's nice to know that she can and will, willingly face demons to please and therefore must know what's important, but at the same time, I sometimes feel like just heading out the door :/
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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

If you feel like a monster that is something you have taken on yourself. Knock it off. It isn't helpful and it isn't how she feels about you. Fix that misconception straightaway because you are not MADE to feel that way.

You can head out the door of you want. Just remember that she is the brave one

I question your love for her and your ability to feel empathy because all you can see is yourself


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> If you feel like a monster that is something you have taken on yourself. Knock it off. It isn't helpful and it isn't how she feels about you. Fix that misconception straightaway because you are not MADE to feel that way.
> 
> You can head out the door of you want. Just remember that she is the brave one
> 
> I question your love for her and your ability to feel empathy because all you can see is yourself


Well I definitely appreciate your input but 'all I can see is myself' wow, gonna have to think about that. I never really saw myself as a total (which is what you are saying by 'all') self centered person. Generally the consensus on the street is that is that of a very empathetic guy - I'll try to stop thinking about myself. Thank you
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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Reread what you wrote to me and notice how you made yourself number one: not getting sex you believe should come easily makes you a monster in her eyes /projection, sayng it saddens you but not because of what she had experienced but because of how it makes you feel/wheres the empathy, saying it is nice to know she will go through that for you but also saying that "she knows what's importsat", meaning you and sex with you and pleasing you/wheres the actual gratitude and respect, and then the finally feeling like ditching her because this is too hard for you.

Too hard for you... You wouldn't last ten seconds in her head.

Think carefully about the epidemic of child sexual abuse and realize how likely it is you will end up with another victim. No matter how good a job you do of trying to screen for it you can't ever be sure. The ***** in the bedroom before marriage might be a victim, the reserved woman might be, and each of them may also not be. The while in the bedroom might cut you off after marriage and the reserved woman might grow in marital sex.

If your wife is into women it would be very unfair of her not to tell you and to let you go. But if she is just struggling with what she can handle and she is making an effort it really wouldn't be nice if the guy she married didn't try to help her with some understanding. And that means talking without expectation.

How much have you read about what a CSA victim goes through in terms of body sensations? The psyching herself up is her trying to master her negative associations. There are also good associations or she wouldn't even try. So realize that she is doing it for both of you. If she didn't want to or couldn't, you would not see any effort like this. 

You have it so easy compared to her. You don't have any clue. Just pray that none of the little girls in your life have to live through this and have to face their husband wanting to kick them to the curb because they tried but not enough.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

So what do you suggest I do then - I'm trying to imserstand that perspective as mention before - despite whatever you may have gathered from this thread it's about us not me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

Csquare said:


> Depending on what age your wife was abused, I would suspect that the trauma would re-wire her response to sexuality in such a way to be "abnormal." And any adaptive behaviors she subsequently assumed may very well be distorted and unhealthy.
> 
> EMDR is one therapy used for re-wiring the brain in response to trauma. It involves tapping and some have found it to be helpful for developing better coping strategies.


Csquare - you are so right. I was sexually abused as a young child, and you don't realize the impact it has on you. It does rewire your your brain and the way you respond to sex. 

KindlaMintcake - It is my personal belief that you are wired to be gay, straight or bi from the get go. Ones exposure to sexual abuse doesn't always shape your sexual preference later in life. I am not sure the percentage of folks who turn to gay and lesbian relationships due to past abuse. 

As far as supporting gay and lesbian rights, I think that is wonderful. It is like supporting PETA, the animal rights activists. Just because you support them doesn't mean you are a dog or cat lover. A NRA (national rifle association) supporter doesn't men you own a gun or want to own a gun. So I don't really think that gay and lesbian and bi rights activists are the same, doesn't necessary mean you are gay or otherwise. 

Watching lesbian porn doesn't have much to do with sexual abuse and likely hood of being lesbian. I am straight even though I have been threw sexual abuse and I don't mind lesbian porn. I think as a straight woman who has watched some lesbian porn the attraction has to do more with the mental and emotional connection that women are capable of, which is different from sex with a man. ( I say that even though I have no experience with lesbian experiences, that is what draws me as a woman)


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

LnghrnFan said:


> Has your wife ever gone to counseling for the abuse she endured? That would be the number one thing she should do if she wants to find healing. It's really important! Sexual abuse usually leaves long-lasting emotional scars, and they have to be dealt with so that the other areas in her life can be healthy (particularly in the area of sex).
> 
> For you, I would strongly recommend you get a copy of the book When a Woman You Love was Abused. I think it will be really helpful as you try to understand what she's going through. Here is a link: Christianbook.com: When a Woman You Love Was Abused: A Husband's Guide to Helping Her Overcome Childhood Sexual Molestation: Dawn Scott Jones: 9780825429750. Good luck!




That is the best book ever. You don't have to purchase it, our local library has it, check your library before making a purchase. I wish my H would read it. I read it and had a lot of WOW moments. "That is me" and "That's why I do that" kinda moments. 

Kindalmintcake - I can totally relate, my H feels a lot of pain due to my not wanting to have physical contact, not wanting to have sex or hold hands hug or anything. If he would read this book he would understand why I don't and why I dissociate when we have sex. 

I really think this book will help you a lot. It would help you and the relationship you are in with your wife if you sought help to deal with her abuse and the affects it has on you. An abuser didn't just rob your wife of her sexuality it really robbed you to. And you could benefit from T as well to help you threw that process. 

Sex with someone who has been abused is a complicated thing for sure. Best of luck to you.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

KendalMintcake said:


> So what do you suggest I do then - I'm trying to imserstand that perspective as mention before - despite whatever you may have gathered from this thread it's about us not me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


KMC, one thing I have learned over the last 3 years after my wife told me of her abuse is that there is an unbridgeable gap between abuse survivors and secondary survivors. If you visit over on aftersilence dot org you will see it play out pretty dramatically on the secondary survivor forum. Here you will see it some, too.

There is no doubt your wife has been horribly damaged by her abuse. As Big Mama says, CSA rewires the young girl's brain. She doesn't even know what she is missing out on. Your wife's life in many ways has been stolen from her. She can never undo all the damage, though many women seem to be able to overcome much of the damage.

One blind area for many CSA victims _in my opinion_ is what abuse or damage they pass on to Secondaries. Because she is unable to know what "normal" is in a relationship, both sexually and emotionally, she is unable to see how dysfunctional she is within your marriage. And thus she is unable to recognize or accept the level of distress this causes her husband.

To be clear, I view this as caused by her abuser. The Secondary is also a victim of the abuser. Our wives do not intend to harm us or anyone.

And that is another dimension to this unbridgeable gap. The self blame, the shame, the guilt she may feel about the abuse is misunderstood by her. She incorrectly feels attacked if someone points out a problem which has resulted from her abuse. Because she feels such shame and guilt for the abuse, she feels we are blaming and shaming her for these residual side effects decades after the abuse.

The abuse victim incorrectly feels shame and guilt for the abuse. This is the young child's view of her experiences, including the usually harmful reactions of her parents or other people she tells of the abuse. The child then attaches this shame and guilt to the side effects of the abuse.

So now when you approach your wife and tell her "your CSA caused you these latent psychological effects which make it very difficult for me in our marriage", what she hears is more like "you horrible dirty shameful guilty little girl have ruined my life". You and I know what you mean is that you love her and want her to find peace and happiness. You want her to be able to interact in healthy ways within healthy relationships. She doesn't hear that, though.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

KMC, you have a difficult tightrope to walk. You can be loving and supportive, but not so much that she gets a free pass on treating you badly. For her to grow as a person she needs to be pushed. You have to help her feel some discomfort so that she feels a need to change. Because it is so difficult for her to face her CSA, she may need a pretty big push, but not so much as to overload her.

Some women just cannot face their CSA trauma. If you push too hard they just bail out on you.

So to risk the wrath of some of the respected participants in this thread, I offer my opinion that you have to take care of your own self in all of this. You have to guard your own emotional health. You have to advocate for your own needs and your own right to a fulfilling relationship.

Try to find the right balance on that tightrope. You can love her and you can desire she find healing, but you also have to love your self. 

She does not have the right to pass on her abuse to you and your children (if you have any).


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Thor, that is not the way it goes in all cases. Many CSA survivors are very aware of what normal looks like because of the glimpses they have of it when conditions are right. To call it an unbridgeable gap well, how else would the CSA victim act but to feel terrible since this essentially says they cannot ever be fixed.

The only CSA victims you are describing are those that don't seek help. And you have zero idea how difficult it is to immerse yourself in a nightmare again hoping to come out the other side stronger. If you want to see your sex life get even more complex, see what it is like during that period.

So be very careful what you wish for.

The OP's wife seems like a good candidate for therapy and the only question is would the OP be able to stand by her if she went through it. 

Whether she decided to continue has to be up to her. She might find that she was really close to a good place without it but not realize it until reopening that can of worms. With some time to get past dredging up those memories she could land in a better place than before simply by realizing she isn't that messed up. She can give herself permission to take back her body.

I don't think anyone is truly normal about sex. Men have a variety of issues unrelated to abuse just as women do. Early porn use strongly influences what turns a person on for instance. They key to good sex is trust between partners. You gotta feel safe. 

I think the OP should try to talk to his wife able her experience not regarding how it has impacted her regarding sex but overall. Trust. Safety. Did she feel completely alone and unable to tell anyone? I think most people can imagine what it feels like if they allow themselves to think about it in enough depth and detail for enough time. Every child has experienced moments of fear. Worry. Being afraid they will be or might be lost. 

Is your wife angry at what happened to her? Was she ever angry? I think some people never allow anger. Too much is never positive but none at all is very bad IMO. what came of the perp? Ever confronted? 

So many times the victim protects the perp. They don't want everyone to know for a variety of potential reasons. Sometimes they even go on interacting with that person for years and years. 

Do you guys have kids? Has she spoken with them about sexual abuse? 

She has carried this burden alone for a long time. She has an ally in you and if you can stead away from what it has cost you in terms of loss of a sexual partner she may begin to open up.

Here is something I have often wondered about. Women will sometimes go to some lengths to create a sexual experience for her husband... Props, setting, attitude. Why don't men do the same now and then? Why dont they buy something sexy to wear and jump through some hoops, risking looking and feeling silly in an attempt to please their wives? And if it turns out silly then you both laugh and love one another anyway. When women do it it trends to be serious. I suspect it might be more comical for a man. But maybe lightening the mood about sex isn't such a bad thing. Maybe turning it into play would be good for a woman who has to expend so much energy to be able to truly please her husband.

Go to the Halloween store and pick out some of those sexy cop uniforms or super hero underoos and surprise her.

Arrest her. Cuff her to the bed and then tell her you have to write up the report and let her think you forgot her. Come back with donuts and coffee. 

Try not to see this as all gloom and doom.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

clipclop2 said:


> Thor, that is not the way it goes in all cases. Many CSA survivors are very aware of what normal looks like because of the glimpses they have of it when conditions are right.


You are correct. There are many women who either through trauma therapy or their own epiphanies do not have debilitating long term affects. While no one person is "normal", the normal a CSA survivor is in will never be the same as a "normal" the non-CSA person is in. But yes there are many survivors who have fairly happy and fulfilling marriages. 




clipclop2 said:


> To call it an unbridgeable gap well, how else would the CSA victim act but to feel terrible since this essentially says they cannot ever be fixed.


And thus the unbridgeable gap. She feels horrible, guilty, shameful, dirty, terrified because she believes things which are not true. She believes terrible things about herself because of the way the abuse happened and, in my opinion, perhaps even more so because of the way her parents or other supposedly safe adults reacted to the situation. She believes her husband will have these same views of her, when in reality he is mortified at what was done to her, mourns her losses, and wishes with every fiber of his being that he could somehow undo all of it.

What does support of an alcoholic look like? "Dude, you've got to stop drinking! You're ruining everything. You need to go to AA.". What does support of a depressed person look like? "Honey, I think you're depressed. I want you to go to the doctor and get his opinion. I will make the appointment for you and take you to it if you will let me.". What does support of someone injured in an accident look like? "I am so sorry this happened to you. You didn't deserve this to happen. I know the rehab will be tough, but I will do whatever I can to help you through it." What does support of someone who lost their job look like? "Oh that is really a bad break for you. Can I do anything to help you out? Do you have any job prospects?".

What does the injured person say to their spouse? "Honey, thank you so much for taking care of me. I am so sorry to be a burden on you. I hate not being able to do things for myself and am sorry you have to take on these extra worries."

What does support of the CSA victim look like? Is it total silence from my side? Is it never asking her for sex? Do I have to wait for her to initiate? Do I read tea leaves to determine if she is emotionally capable tonight? Do I encourage her to drink a few so that she can face the idea of sex with me?

Is support of the CSA survivor never mentioning the idea that some form of counseling may be helpful to her? Is support never being able to express my frustrations or anger at the situation? Is support not being able to ever mention a dysfunctional or destructive behavior or attitude of hers, which *might be* rooted in the CSA, though not ever mentioning the CSA?



clipclop2 said:


> The only CSA victims you are describing are those that don't seek help. And you have zero idea how difficult it is to immerse yourself in a nightmare again hoping to come out the other side stronger. If you want to see your sex life get even more complex, see what it is like during that period.
> 
> So be very careful what you wish for.


I am fairly well versed in what the trauma therapy process involves.



clipclop2 said:


> The OP's wife seems like a good candidate for therapy and the only question is would the OP be able to stand by her if she went through it.


Agreed. I know many husbands of CSA survivors who are willing to work very hard to help their wives get through it. I think the OP here is one of those people as long as there is a light at the end of the tunnel.




clipclop2 said:


> I think the OP should try to talk to his wife able her experience not regarding how it has impacted her regarding sex but overall. Trust. Safety. Did she feel completely alone and unable to tell anyone? I think most people can imagine what it feels like if they allow themselves to think about it in enough depth and detail for enough time. Every child has experienced moments of fear. Worry. Being afraid they will be or might be lost.


This is the tightrope he faces. The advice I've received from therapists is to offer support and offer to be there if she ever wants to talk. Frequently, though, a CSA survivor feels much safer talking to a therapist than to her husband.

I don't think a non-CSA victim can ever imagine what the experience was like for the child. 




clipclop2 said:


> Is your wife angry at what happened to her? Was she ever angry? I think some people never allow anger. Too much is never positive but none at all is very bad IMO. what came of the perp? Ever confronted?
> 
> So many times the victim protects the perp. They don't want everyone to know for a variety of potential reasons. Sometimes they even go on interacting with that person for years and years.


I'm not sure if you're asking me or the OP.

My wife won't discuss it at all. She first told me about the abuse as an excuse for her behavior as her part of our marital dysfunction when I finally gave her the "fix it or end it" talk about the marriage after 29 years. I know perhaps 6 sentences worth of information about the entire situation. 

She tried indirectly as best she could as a 6 yr old to tell her parents. She seems very angry that they didn't figure it out. She never tried to protect the perp afaik, rather it seems he/they intimidated her into not directly telling her parents.

The perp had access to her for a couple of years and then again once a year later.



clipclop2 said:


> Do you guys have kids? Has she spoken with them about sexual abuse?
> 
> She has carried this burden alone for a long time. She has an ally in you and if you can stead away from what it has cost you in terms of loss of a sexual partner she may begin to open up.


Yes we have adult kids. She did speak to them when they were young about the usual stranger safety stuff, good touch vs bad touch, etc.

Yes I am her biggest ally. I would have been from day 1, but she "didn't trust" me with the information.

What it has cost me is vastly more than some sex. It cost me decades of anguish and self-doubt about what was so repulsive about me she couldn't stand to have sex with me except once or twice per year at 10 pm on a Saturday night after she got drunk. What did I do to make her allergic to sex after we got married when she was so easily sexual before we were married? How could she have done all those things with other men, too, before me, yet now she couldn't (and still cannot) even change her clothes in front of me? What was defective in me that I turned this wonderful woman into someone who couldn't even get dressed in front of me?

As it turns out, one of her triggers is kissing, which was involved in the abuse. I never knew this and just believed I must be a bad kisser. After knowing her for over 30 years I finally found out. And, just to turn the knife a bit in my own back, I realize that I was triggering her trauma all those years and thus in her emotional brain I was an abuser to her for over 30 years.

Can a CSA survivor imagine how it feels for the husband to find out his wife has (subconsciously) equated him with her abuser for decades?

If it hadn't been for kids, I would have bailed long ago without ever knowing it wasn't me, it was her* abuse* which made me repulsive to her.

Indirectly I see her dysfunctions have affected her parenting, which affects our kids. The effects of the abuse ripple down through time and through the generations. I blame her abuser, not her, for the damage.

Then there are the emotional intimacy and relationship template issues. Her version of a marriage is cool, distant, practical, and allows for deception in order to control my actions. Control of information was her only tool as a child to exert any control over her situation and to hide her shame and self loathing over the CSA.

Her CSA has cost me the ability to have a life long emotionally fulfilling relationship with her.

Her refusal to tell me about her CSA prevented me from having any chance of helping her. Instead I kept traumatizing her every time I kissed her, tried to hold her hand, initiated sex, played a certain song, offered her a certain food, bought her lingerie, made a sexual comment, etc. I feel like sh1t even though I didn't know better.



clipclop2 said:


> Here is something I have often wondered about. Women will sometimes go to some lengths to create a sexual experience for her husband... Props, setting, attitude. Why don't men do the same now and then? Why dont they buy something sexy to wear and jump through some hoops, risking looking and feeling silly in an attempt to please their wives? And if it turns out silly then you both laugh and love one another anyway. When women do it it trends to be serious. I suspect it might be more comical for a man. But maybe lightening the mood about sex isn't such a bad thing. Maybe turning it into play would be good for a woman who has to expend so much energy to be able to truly please her husband.
> 
> Go to the Halloween store and pick out some of those sexy cop uniforms or super hero underoos and surprise her.
> 
> ...


She triggers or at least has great emotional difficulty when it comes to sex _with me_. Spontaneous sex doesn't happen. She has said most emphatically that morning sex will never ever EVER happen. I presume there is an abuse connection with the morning.

I've tried the suggestive texts, and she shuts it down forcefully. Not even sexting, just suggestive texts. I've tried joking and innuendo at random times, but gotten the deer-in-the-headlights look and silence from her. I've tried luring her onto a beach at midnight, or a romp in the back seat after going to a club. I've tried toys, suggested blindfolds or psuedo-bondage (easily escapable) These all exceed her ability to cope. These were all easy with her previous boyfriends, but not with me.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I was asking the OP actually. It was pretty clear that you are on the gloom and dim side of things and I wanted to focus on the OP's wife because from what he has indicated, I think she has a really good chance of success.

I would not like to see him negatively influenced by your experience. You are angry and that cannot help this situation at all. And shoot, you called her telling you an excuse for blah, blah, blah. Maybe your marriage has reached its conclusion. You are angry at what she didn't tell you and will not give you. You feel like **** even though you should know better... You have much in common. It seems unlikely that she feels any better having told you so telling was probably as she expected. A new humiliating experience. You kept trying to get sex and threatened divorce over it. And then kept trying anyway. In a way you did become a new perp because once you knew you knew why she was as she was. If she reached a point e with you where she doesn't want you like that I can't imagine she really wants to be married to you. Why hasn't she filled for divorce? The next guy probably wouldn't have the same struggle you two have. But it seems like it will take a while for you to heal. I'm sorry you are both in this situation. If the perp isn't dead she should expose him. Nothing like saying I don't care if everyone knows so they can protect their kids and the guy can gave the disdain he has coming. Once she can do that, the guilt will subside.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

clipclop2 said:


> And shoot, you called her telling you an excuse for blah, blah, blah.


I have owned my issues. I explicitly named several things I know I did wrong. I apologized to her for behaviors I am now aware of. I shed tears in MC talking about the things I know I messed up.

The only thing she has ever offered as a reason for her behaviors was mentioning her CSA. She has never apologized for anything, never expressed remorse for mistakes she's made, never expressed concern for my unhappiness or difficulties. Honestly I think the CSA does explain much of her dysfunction within the marriage.




clipclop2 said:


> You are angry at what she didn't tell you and will not give you.


Yes and no. I am angry that she never told me. She decided to take away my ability to make an informed decision from the beginning. As it turns out she has done this many times about many things. She manipulates via controlling the information and the accuracy of information.




clipclop2 said:


> It seems unlikely that she feels any better having told you so telling was probably as she expected. A new humiliating experience.


How was it humiliating? I expressed concern. I offered support for her seeking closure. I never asked her who, what, when, or how of the CSA. She said she didn't want to discuss it so I didn't say any more. The next day after thinking about the whole stunning revelation I offered her my support and told her if she ever wanted to talk to me about it I would be there. She said simply she never wanted to speak of it again.



clipclop2 said:


> You kept trying to get sex and threatened divorce over it. And then kept trying anyway. In a way you did become a new perp because once you knew you knew why she was as she was. If she reached a point e with you where she doesn't want you like that I can't imagine she really wants to be married to you.


Wrong. For 29 years I tried to initiate sex but learned to back off. She trained me to not ask very often. Note that before we got married she was quite willing and enthusiastic about sex, often initiating herself. She was sexually active with a number of previous boyfriends to me.

Once she told me of her abuse 3 years ago (29 years into our marriage), I have totally backed off and let her set the pace.

I didn't threaten her with divorce. I told her we were in a bad place and we should either fix it or end it. I told her that no matter what the issues were, we could talk about them. I asked her 4 times to go to MC with me, which she refused. After a few minutes of back and forth she told me of her abuse.

Why did I start this conversation? No sex for 4 years was part of it. An ex-bf of hers showing up on her FaceBook. Secretive computer activity. Catching a glimpse of her getting in the shower (once in 10 years event) and noticed her neatly groomed privates (something she never did before). Stopped wearing her wedding rings. Etc etc. Though I didn't mention I suspected an affair, it was one of the reasons for initiating the conversation.




clipclop2 said:


> Why hasn't she filled for divorce?


Idk. She seems happy as long as things are polite, practical, and cool. If I back off she seems content.



clipclop2 said:


> The next guy probably wouldn't have the same struggle you two have.


Agreed.



clipclop2 said:


> But it seems like it will take a while for you to heal. I'm sorry you are both in this situation.


I wish nobody was in this situation.



clipclop2 said:


> If the perp isn't dead she should expose him. Nothing like saying I don't care if everyone knows so they can protect their kids and the guy can gave the disdain he has coming. Once she can do that, the guilt will subside.


Presumably the guy is dead of old age. If not I don't want to know. I don't know who he is/was.

I don't believe she will ever tell anyone at this point.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Just wanted to reiterate something I wrote earlier. Ultimately the cause of her dysfunctions in the marriage is irrelevant. Either she is or is not meeting KMC's needs and desires in a spouse.

Knowing possible root causes of her issues may be helpful in deciding when to call it quits. If there is some kind of trauma then there is reason to have some patience and to approach things with more kindness. If there is addiction, tough love may be in order. If there is an outside emotional attraction then harsher approaches are advised.

It is up to her to recognize she has contributing issues to the marital problems and to seek whatever course of healing is necessary. Either she does or she does not.


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## Big Mama (Mar 24, 2014)

T would help your wife so much, if she is not willing to go to T it would help you in ways you would never imagine. My H has learned so much small stuff thta helps me tremendously. 

He has learned:
1. To not stand above me. To sit, or get lower then me, so that he doesn't seem overpowering to me. 
2. My need for personal space is larger then most people's because my space was invaded. So he sets across the room when we discuss important matters that way it is very non threatening. 
3. He has learned to lower his volume. If he talks to me loudly or aggressively, i get triggered. 
4. Most importantly he doesn't touch me when I am upset, frustrated or scared. That makes things 10 x worse. I have similar to combative PTSD. Touching me with out asking first is huge. And if I say no, then the answer is No! 
5. Be prepared for no to mean NO one min and ask again a few min later and the silence means yes. 
6. Very little of the reactions you get during sex are about you. It's mostly about her hell. I cry during sex, after sex, throw up after sex. It has nothing to do with my H. It took T for my H to get it. It has to do with the body memories. 


You can let your wife know these things to. Not all the work dealing with CSA is about the CSA it is just as much about changing how you deal with stuff and making others aware of your issues. Because a lot of it is not going to go away, you will just have to adjust your life around it. 

If you or your wife either one have any questions I would be more then happy to help any way I can feel free to PM me.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Sorry Thor. Got booted during our conversation.

You have good reason to leave. No doubt there.

Just please be careful not to use your unacceptable situation too forcefully with others. With the number of women who have been molested being what it is, more situations work out OK than not. Hanging around the site you mentioned is going to skew your outlook.

I'm sorry she dragged you into this. She didn't have the right to do that if she had no intention of making your marriage better.


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