# Need SERIOUS Opinion!!!



## bchsoul (Jun 3, 2012)

So here is my story... I will do my best to keep it brief...

My wife and I have been married for 13 years. We have two beautiful boys (8 & 11). We both work - she is a teacher and I am in marketing.

Our entire relationship has been extremely rocky... the bad days have always outweighed the good days... she would agree with that. To my knowledge, there has been no infidelity.

During the early part of our marriage, she would always hang out with her best friend as I worked long hours to pay the bills since she had already had our first son and stayed home. During this time, it came to my attention that her friend was bisexual. Over the next year, my wife (and 2 yr old) would hang with her friends, but would also go over to other people's houses whom I did not know and were also gay. Please don't take me as homophobic, but I have my beliefs just like everyone else. 

It really started getting weird when my wife and her best friend decided to visit her mom in Florida. While she was gone, I was folding clothes and putting them away when I found a dildo. I was very shocked as our sex life was almost completely non-existent and also because I thought we had no secrets. When I called her to ask her about it, she told me that her and her friend had gone to an adult store and bought it. I was told she bought it to try and help her regain in sexual urge for me. However, here's the kicker... we started talked about intimacy and she said one of her fantasies was to bring another woman in the bedroom...WHAT?! I was floored...

Then, several weeks later she and her friend decided to leave to go out of town for the weekend. I begged her not to go, but she said she was burned out and needed to get away. She went and from then on I have always wondered about my wife's actions and intentions.

Over the next 10 years our relationship has always been rocky. Intimacy has always been non-existent. To compensate, I must admit I turned to pornography to fulfill my needs. I know that's just as bad as cheating, but I kept away from any affairs.

In 2005, she left me and took the kids to live with her mom. She said she was done with me as I was not helping her enough with the kids. Keep in mind I was working 14 hours a day and she was staying home to take care of the boys. I begged her to come back and seek marriage counseling which she finally agreed. Counseling helped for awhile, but it was just a matter of time until things went back to the way they were.

Over the years, I have blamed myself for everything... and so did she. When everything went to hell, I was the first one to apologize and try and build the bridge of love and understanding. She would act hateful or just completely ignore me. PLEASE DON'T THINK I am saying I am without fault, but I just basically gave up and gave in for the sake of the boys.

In the last year, I have finally realized that I'm better than this and want more out of life. I have lost weight and really focused on myself and the boys. Six months ago, I approached her and told her that I didn't appreciate her ignoring me and not feeling loved. She was surprised at my words as I had never said anything like that. She said she would try and change things. Nothing changed.

So last month, I had had enough. I sat her down and told her I didn't love her as a wife, but only as a mother. I told her I think the best thing was to separate. SHE WAS FLOORED and cried for two days straight! Since then she has been all over me trying to make things better and wanting to be intimate. It makes me so angry because it feels so fake and provoked by my words.

The final straw was this...

We were talking late the other night and she said this, "The reason I haven't been close to you or intimate was because I always wanted to be right and in control." WHHHATTTT??!!

I lost it on that. I almost hit the wall. I was shaking I was so angry. So I guess the reason we have only been intimate roughly 20 times in 14 years and the reason you pull away from me is because of control?!! WTH?!

She now wants to try and work things out with me, but I just don't know if I can. I do not love her as a wife. I also don't believe in "learning to love someone"... at least not a wife.

I would love some opinions. I'm sorry so choppy... i"m not a writer...


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## GhostRydr (Jun 2, 2012)

Leave. 

You know how its ALWAYS a bad thing when ya tell an employer you found another job and you are leaving and they beg you to stay, prmise more money, etc and ya do and then after no more than a few months or a year max they LET YOU GO....the same applies in a marriage. Her resentment will be there cuz either

A. You beat her to the punch
B. Her issues about control will kick in TWOFOLD


On a sidenote...whyam I reading stories of MEN. M.E.N doing this so called "begging" of their wives...ie, please dont take that 3rd shift job, or talk to you your old flame, or go away with your friend on vacation, etc? Huh? 

They need to be told, NO...you ARENT going and if you do, XYZ will be the consequence upon your decision. 

I believe in compromise, but I sense there are a lot of Beta males here and hardly any Alpha ones..and no, Im not talking about treating your woman like a doormat whose opinions mean nothing.

Men need to realize American women are SO westernized and indoctrinated with this "I dont need to cede to my husband: on ANYTHING jazz, is why marriages are failing. The same applies for me....Im leaving my second marriage cuz she had zero respect and doest bekieve the MAN (IS) the head and finak say of the household. Again, keeping in mind that BOTH should always respect the other party but todays woman has failed to know her place. My mom did and in no way was she a doormat to my dad. But when she barked he listened. But again she knew her place when it came down to the FINAL straw decision.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

You sound like an awesome person. Your wife doesn't know what she is losing.

For the children's sake, I say give it another shot. Have you read _The Five Love Languages_ by Gary Chapman? There must have been some reason the two of you fell in love and married. The book addresses this factor and could be beneficial in helping the two of you reconnect.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

GhostRydr said:


> Leave.
> 
> You know how its ALWAYS a bad thing when ya tell an employer you found another job and you are leaving and they beg you to stay, prmise more money, etc and ya do and then after no more than a few months or a year max they LET YOU GO....the same applies in a marriage. Her resentment will be there cuz either
> 
> ...


Uhhhh excuse me? I believe the man is the head of the household. I believe that my husband and I make the final decisions TOGETHER... However, I defer to him most of the time out of respect. However, in no way, shape, or form does he ever ORDER me to do, or not do something. He is not a Beta male either. I guarantee if he ever did try to ORDER me to do things, he'd be out on his @$$! By that way of thinking I highlighted above, do you believe, also, that men should have consequences for the same/similar actions? If not, I feel sorry for you. A marriage takes two people. Two EQUAL people, to make it work. If one is kept under the other's thumb, it won't work... period. Someone, possibly both, will become resentful, and or leave because of the treatment, and lack of respect.

However, I WILL agree that speaking with an ex is a no go. And obviously, infidelity is not allowed as well. But to put a man above the woman, to act as lord of the manor, so to speak? No.


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## bchsoul (Jun 3, 2012)

Here's a tangent question for the women... should I believe her explanation / scenario about her bisexual friend? BTW - she also told me she wanted another lady in our bedroom because she felt she could please me where she couldn't... REALLY?!?

Thank you for your input folks... I would really appreciate more if it's out there...

I would like to add one thing... and this is my opinion. *Love should not be complicated.* I believe in counseling, but at the end of the day it's up to THE COUPLE to make it work... not a book... not a movie... not a counselor...

It starts with respect... which only seems to have come because I made a line in the sand...


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## tiredwife&sahm (Jan 4, 2012)

GhostRydr said:


> Leave.
> 
> You know how its ALWAYS a bad thing when ya tell an employer you found another job and you are leaving and they beg you to stay, prmise more money, etc and ya do and then after no more than a few months or a year max they LET YOU GO....the same applies in a marriage. Her resentment will be there cuz either
> 
> ...


Back in the 1950's are we...


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Well you finally cracked that nut. It took a long time for you to stand up for yourself. You may have not known it, but you did allow it. You know control is about insecurities. Now that she does see what she has done, your ready to walk away? Can't say your wrong. But for the first time in a long time you do have a chance for both of you to heal. Maybe you could give it a period of time just to do that. In that way you both could see through the hurt. Then decide which way you want to go with it. 
Don't fall back to Mr. Nice Guy, but be forgiving, it will help you heal.

Here are some worthwhile reads. Learn what a good marriage looks like

"No More Mr. Nice Guy" This one is for you
"His Needs, Her Needs" This is for you, to see how easy a marriage should be. 

Good luck.


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## bchsoul (Jun 3, 2012)

Well as long as you folks know I believe in equality... I cook, clean, take care of the kids just as much as anyone... In fact, I cook more and clean more than she does...


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## bchsoul (Jun 3, 2012)

To anchorwatch...

After 13 years of being ignored, manipulated, and especially not loved... yes... most of all I have been made to think its my fault...

Also, no one has addressed the initial part of my email about what she said about her friend... I would love some honest feedback on your assessment of her explanation about her "friend"


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## cocovas09 (Jun 3, 2012)

i'm not defending her control thing at all.. but perhaps offering an outsider's opinion... i think i would have some serious issues if i was completely financially dependent on my hubs. insecurities... the whole 9.. not saying it's justifiable, i'm just saying that's how i'd feel. BUT that's why i have a job. 

you need to have the conversation about why she has control issues.. and if she's willing to take control of her life in other ways. if it's because of money (and that's my best guess) then ask her if it would help her to get a job. 

if you seriously think the friend sex thing is an option.. then yes.. i'd mention it. if it's a deal breaker for you.. then of course you have to mention it. but then again.. it was 10 years ago.. why didnt you say anything then? maybe write a list of things you'd like to speak with her about. there's a lot going on.. neglect, possible infidelity, insecurities... it may help to organize everything. 

i dont believe "love should not be complicated".. it's ALWAYS complicated. that's why the divorce rate is insane... that's why websites like TAM exist. there will always be complications.... sex, money, infidelity.. shoo... people on here post about an argument about where they went for dinner last night. there's always something.. marriage is the hardest thing i've ever done... and most of the time it's worth it. but.. you must ask yourself.. is your marriage worth it?

all the best


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

bchsoul said:


> *Love should not be complicated.*


One thing you should know by now is... despite you feeling it shouldn't be... love will always be complicated. There will never be anything simple about it. I do agree that at the end of the day it's up to the couple however.. counseling, books, ect help each person open up their eyes a bit more and get them to thinking about their own actions and consequences for said actions. All those are tools to help one become a better person. I can fully understand how you feel, as if your wife should have made an effort to change her behavior before it got to that point. Those questions.... "Why does it take going to the extreme before she does anything?" I've gotten that feeling alot with my own spouse. A few times I had told him I was sick of it.. and it was over.. and yes i did mean it at the time and i was resentful that .. that is when he decided to change but we managed to work things out. We are still working things out matter of factly.. and it's not perfect but it's getting better. Right now.. your probably holding a lot of resentment towards your wife and thats normal however .. there are ways to lessen this resentment and deal with it better. If you really want to make this work with her.. you will be open to ideas on how to fix these problems and deal with them.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

bchsoul said:


> To anchorwatch...
> 
> After 13 years of being ignored, manipulated, and especially not loved... yes... most of all I have been made to think its my fault...
> 
> Also, no one has addressed the initial part of my email about what she said about her friend... I would love some honest feedback on your assessment of her explanation about her "friend"


She is going to have to make an effort to communicate and understand your point of view as well. And don't let her blame everything on you.. you may have made mistakes but so has she and nothing is 100% your fault.


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## bchsoul (Jun 3, 2012)

cocovas09...she has a job... money is not an issue for her


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## bchsoul (Jun 3, 2012)

I agree... I KNOW I have made mistakes...and I have admitted them all... I don't believe in keeping things bottled up. I just feel these 13 years have been a game in which I have been the pawn...


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

bchsoul said:


> To anchorwatch...
> 
> After 13 years of being ignored, manipulated, and especially not loved... yes... *most of all I have been made to think its my fault*...
> 
> Also, no one has addressed the initial part of my email about what she said about her friend... I would love some honest feedback on your assessment of her explanation about her "friend"


bchsoul, you are not at fault. You would only be at fault if you knew how to stop her bad behavior and did not. That's not the case. Your have a right to be angry. But *do no*t make a life decision until the anger subsides. 

As for her "Friend". I can only speculate that she may have been in some type of EA/PA Bi relationship at the time. This would be based on the amount of time she spent with her friend. It could be she was just curious about that lifestyle. At worst, that's all the evidence supports. As for the toy, many women use them and are shy about it. 

Don't disregard the reading suggested on this thread. It can help you! It will open your eyes.


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## cocovas09 (Jun 3, 2012)

my bad.. i thought you said she stayed home with kids.. i'd still ask her why she has such control issues.. maybe remind her that trying to sexually control a man by not having sex is not a "good" kind of control. it teaches men that they're not loved, desired.. so is that the kind of control she wanted? she basically forced you to stop loving her.


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## GhostRydr (Jun 2, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Uhhhh excuse me? I believe the man is the head of the household. I believe that my husband and I make the final decisions TOGETHER... However, I defer to him most of the time out of respect. However, in no way, shape, or form does he ever ORDER me to do, or not do something. He is not a Beta male either. I guarantee if he ever did try to ORDER me to do things, he'd be out on his @$$! By that way of thinking I highlighted above, do you believe, also, that men should have consequences for the same/similar actions? If not, I feel sorry for you. A marriage takes two people. Two EQUAL people, to make it work. If one is kept under the other's thumb, it won't work... period. Someone, possibly both, will become resentful, and or leave because of the treatment, and lack of respect.
> 
> However, I WILL agree that speaking with an ex is a no go. And obviously, infidelity is not allowed as well. But to put a man above the woman, to act as lord of the manor, so to speak? No.


No wife of mine would be pulling half the crap that some of these guys have stated and still remain my wife. I dont beg when I know something is wrong and shouldnt be done and Im also smart enough to not place a wife of mine in the same position. Oh I WILL order and forbid if it came to that, and sure she can defy me but then she will have had the result of her choice laid out before her...you wanna carpool with your new man buddy? Wanna keep secret texting? Wanna go for a ladues nite out with your bisexual/gay friends and lookt at me like Im a fool when I find items, read things, etc? No way. Not on my marriage patrol and she should expect me not to put her in that situation as well.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

MAYBE she is gay. Sex 20 times in 14 years... that alone should be grounds for divorce. So maybe she is gay and will never ever admit it. 

We have no way of knowing if she had an affair with her friend. Ask her... point blank. Now would be a good time since she is bending over backwards to make things work. 

Try each writing out a list of what would make it a good marriage...be specific. (Sex 3 times a week. Date Night once a week. Dividing up the chores more equitably. etc...) 

Good Luck.... you'll know if you are done. You'll just know.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

bchsoul said:


> Here's a tangent question for the women... should I believe her explanation / scenario about her bisexual friend? BTW - she also told me she wanted another lady in our bedroom because she felt she could please me where she couldn't... REALLY?!?
> 
> Thank you for your input folks... I would really appreciate more if it's out there...
> 
> ...


It's true, the couple needs to do the work... however, books and counselors are meant only to be tools to HELP them gain the skills necessary, which they are, likely, lacking.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Sorry, I keep trying to read and then re-read your post, but can't get past the fact that you say that the two of you have had sex about 14 times in 20 years. Is this really right?

You know, when you reconcile, usually the resulting balance ends up being resolved about half way in the middle between where you want it to be, and where it currently is. You are talking about deeply ingrained problems here - not just the sex. I find it incredibly hard to believe, given her comments and her friends, that her relationship with her friend is like you think it is. But the sex part ... that is just staggering for a married couple. Just based on averages, the two of you are behind about 2,000 times !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, but Control with a capital C has been what she has had for a very long time, in my opinion. I can't believe that I'm apparently one of the few who fell out of my chair when I read this.

Frankly, I find it hard to find hope here. I might consider telling her that you will only consider reconciliation if she gives you a scenario that someone with a pulse might actually believe to explain 14 TIMES IN 20 YEARS! Things that those who are living, and breathing, might believe is that she has had a deeply fulfulling sexual relationship with her friend, or a battery of professional evaluations that support a low sex drive. Really, what I'm getting at is that she owes you a real explanation, one that really shows you what you are up against. It is far more likely that she wants the comfort and social acceptance that comes along with having a husband, instead of her preferred lifestyle. Just my opinion.


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## bchsoul (Jun 3, 2012)

SunnyT said:


> MAYBE she is gay. Sex 20 times in 14 years... that alone should be grounds for divorce. So maybe she is gay and will never ever admit it.
> 
> We have no way of knowing if she had an affair with her friend. Ask her... point blank. Now would be a good time since she is bending over backwards to make things work.
> 
> ...


I ask for your prayers now. Not for me and my wife... but our kids. Again, thanks so much for your support. It is a true blessing for me right now...


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Halien said:


> sex about 14 times in 20 years.


Whoooaa i completely missed THAT in the post...


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

I'm all about serious opinions and I have a bi-sexual sister with three children. I will be very direct as usual. Your wife is gay and you were her sperm donor and her financier. Your sex life is a serious joke. She takes vacations with her girlfriend. She lies to you and manipulates you into thinking your the problem. She probably laughs about you when she's out with her girlfriends. You need to man up and get out of denial. Wow do you have some denial !Start tracking her activities immediately and begin to protect yourself. Do this in a way that will protect your children as well. Your wife cannot be trusted alone with the care of your children. She lacks the character required to raise them properly. This is not a bash against gay people. This is a bash against someone who thinks your life is not valuable enough to be honest with you. Get a VAR and place it in her car or somewhere she talks to her friend when you are not there. This will answer all your questions. I'm sorry this has happened to you but you need someone to wake you up.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

bchsoul said:


> I would like to add one thing... and this is my opinion. *Love should not be complicated.* I believe in counseling, but at the end of the day it's up to THE COUPLE to make it work... not a book... not a movie... not a counselor...


You say love should not be complicated, but then you say the couple should 'make it work' which implies a certain level of work, yes?

The thing is, you need to educate yourself, both of you, on what a marriage really is, how it works, and how to keep it fulfilling.

It's quite obvious she has never shared herself mentally with you, so I would start there. You two need to get to a point where you can tell each other anything. Without bad feelings. You should be best friends, and I sense that has never happened. 

Read the Love Languages book, but also read His Needs Her Needs. Read them together. If she won't read them with you, then you have your answer, and you can move on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

As to her friend, it sounds pretty logical that she's at least bi.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Enginerd said:


> I'm all about serious opinions and I have a bi-sexual sister with three children. I will be very direct as usual. Your wife is gay and you were her sperm donor and her financier. Your sex life is a serious joke. She takes vacations with her girlfriend. She lies to you and manipulates you into thinking your the problem. She probably laughs about you when she's out with her girlfriends. You need to man up and get out of denial. Wow do you have some denial !Start tracking her activities immediately and begin to protect yourself. Do this in a way that will protect your children as well. Your wife cannot be trusted alone with the care of your children. She lacks the character required to raise them properly. This is not a bash against gay people. This is a bash against someone who thinks your life is not valuable enough to be honest with you. Get a VAR and place it in her car or somewhere she talks to her friend when you are not there. This will answer all your questions. I'm sorry this has happened to you but you need someone to wake you up.


 I have to agree with this. BUT...if you're trying to keep the marriage going for the kids, then follow the previous posts.


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## bchsoul (Jun 3, 2012)

Thank you all for your posts. I honestly had made up my mind about the situation, but needed affirmation on my thoughts and conclusions. As SunnyT put it, "you will know when it's over." Well, I know...

I do believe marriage is a holy union in the eyes of God. However, I also believe God doesn't want us to live a lie. It's been an agonizing struggle not because of love, but out of my beliefs.

I deserve better and the kids deserve better. They need to see what true happiness and love is - not a live in friendship.

You folks have been a huge help. I truly appreciate it....


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Well, okay here's a somewhat different opinion. 20 times in 14 years might make your situation very different than mine. My wife always liked girl-girl porn and uses it for self satisfaction. Well.. used... We recently had a dramatic breakthrough, read my story below for more, but anyway - funny story.. 

We nearly seperated by her choice. One day I came home and had lunch with her, went back to work and came back because I forgot my cell phone or something. She was about to get started. This was before we reconciled completely but at the time we were making some progress. She told me she liked it because with girl-girl, it's free from drama. She associated me with drama. She avoided guy-girl visuals because it was closer to cheating which she didn't want.

I want to recommend a book - Married Man Sex Life by Athol Kay. It puts a lot of what I'd want to say in context, and many here recommended it to me.

The explanations my wife gave to me, in the context of what you'd read from the book, come from a rationalization hampster - she's doing something wrong-ish and has this way of making it seem okay to herself. Probably the same thing going on with your wife and her friend. Still, she probably sees you as kind of a drama queen. 

You enabled her becoming distant until the day you gave the ultimatum... You enabled it by not taking charge, and when you didn't take charge she had to, she didn't view you as the man in charge she wanted. When you said it's time to seperate, you took charge.. And she saw something she's wanted.

Maybe I'm wrong.

But that's something like how it went for me too.

If you want to see more about my story and if it relates to your situation you might find it helpful to start with the thread I link at the bottom of my signature... I find some parts of your story sounding similar, but maybe more extreme than what I went through.

ETA: If you're sure it's over, then go through this learning anyway just to better yourself if not for saving your marriage.


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## Santa (May 31, 2012)

bchsoul said:


> To anchorwatch...
> 
> After 13 years of being ignored, manipulated, and especially not loved... yes... most of all I have been made to think its my fault...
> 
> Also, no one has addressed the initial part of my email about what she said about her friend... I would love some honest feedback on your assessment of her explanation about her "friend"


I actually know just how you feel and I am concerned I am looking at this type of situation myself, after only 5 yrs in...

As far as the the lesbian best friend, I would be concerned as well. Its a red flag no doubt but as long as you have been together, it seems you would have experienced more fire from that smoke by now, I think. Just my own opinion. 

I wouldnt doubt they have been together or the lesbian friend
has at the least pursued your wife in regards to sex and/or leaving you at some point. 

My wife has a bi-sexual friend that has caused issues like this with our marriage. Nothing happened but she made it very clear, even to me, she wanted my wife. It was very hard for me to be ok with them spending time alone or going off for the weekends together as a result. I may never know and you may never know if anything happened with our wives in that manner. 

Best advice I can give you is, if you do try to work things out, let her know what your boundaries are and what you are no ok with in regards to this friend and the relationship they have.
Whats a dealbreaker for you may not be a deal breaker for someone else, ya know..

If you worked things out, would you be ok with them being friends in the same manner they have been?

Would you be ok with them "being together" sexually as long as they were up front with you in regards to it?


These are questions you have to ask yourself and then once you know what you are ok with, express these boundaries to her as a condition to you working things out and being together. 

Just my two cents and mind you I dont claim to have any more insight or wisdom than you or anyone else does.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

bchsoul said:


> Here's a tangent question for the women... should I believe her explanation / scenario about her bisexual friend? BTW - she also told me she wanted another lady in our bedroom because she felt she could please me where she couldn't... REALLY?!?
> 
> Thank you for your input folks... I would really appreciate more if it's out there...
> 
> ...


I don't know, I've never found love to be all that easy or something that just happened. My wife and I have both had to work on loving each other. I personally feel love is not something you feel, it is something you do. But that's just me.

My opinion on your wife based on the information you've given is that she is probably in a PA with her best friend. She doesn't need sexual fulfillment because she is getting it through her friend. You'd need to do some serious snooping to find out for sure.

I also think you should giver her a chance. Lay down some very strict conditions as to what YOU want from the marriage and make sure she sticks to it. Thinks like MC, NC with her "best" friend (I think it's a toxic friend at the least, a AP at the worst), increased intimacy (to the level you feel it should be) and so on. To make sure she believes you go ahead and file for divorce and tell her the papers will be signed and go into effect if she fails. Also gives you time to decide if the marriage is worth salvaging. 

If it were me, I'd give it one more shot for my kids. But again, that's just me.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

bchsoul said:


> Thank you all for your posts. I honestly had made up my mind about the situation, but needed affirmation on my thoughts and conclusions. As SunnyT put it, "you will know when it's over." Well, I know...
> 
> I do believe marriage is a holy union in the eyes of God. However, I also believe God doesn't want us to live a lie. It's been an agonizing struggle not because of love, but out of my beliefs.
> 
> ...


It's quite a long road you've been through. I know I would not have stayed as long as you. You have a lot of healing to do. Take care of your health, see a doctor and an IC. Get some meds if you need them. You need to be in shape for your children. They will need you to heal too. You all deserve better. Good luck.


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