# Can I give up hope yet?



## blessedDaddy (May 13, 2012)

I just moved out 3 nights ago. I found out my wife was having an affair for over the last year... She is not a first time offender.
We have a 3 yr old son together. We do have other kids from our first marriages. 
My wife promised this would never happen again. 
My wife is a very attractive woman. She is a local celebrity.
We work together and in the last 10 years built an mini empire.
We have lots going on.
Her BF has 6 kids all under10yrs old. He stayed choose to stay with his wife and told my wife to never contact him again...they got caught in Hawaii together. His poor wife is a mess. Ive been through it before so I'm just hurt.. not to mad.
I'm living in one of our offices, it has everything I need to lay low for a few months. So far she has brought and dropped off my son everyday. For some reason I'm sleeping OK, not eating much. I told my Wife's parents who are Christian missionaries, they were not shocked at all..this is why her first marriage ended. The are saying they want me to hold on divorcing her..give it some time. My parents are saying divorce her ASAP.
Truth be told in her two marriages I know about 8 affairs.. me being #5. 

I know she is sick with mental issues, shes always looking for the perfect man. I'm not perfect and after a few months together she learned that, but by that time we were living together and broke. I raised her 3 older kids for the last 10 years. She is the face of our businesses and somehow everything ended up in her name. Ive worked very hard with her in our businesses, but I also have been the house dad. I cook and clean and do all the running around. 

She seems to make all the rules. Im not scared of not seeing my son. She is not a good mother at all. Other than making alot of money.

I know Jesus loves me! I know she is sick also. I know I can divorce her for her cheating, but I did say for sickness and in heath.

sad sad situation


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Blessed, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm so sorry to hear that you are in such pain from your W's bad behavior.


> I know she is sick with mental issues, shes always looking for the perfect man.


She may have strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. Like your W, my exW idealized me and thought I was her savior. That happened, of course, during the infatuation period. When the infatuation evaporated, she started perceiving of me as "the Perpetrator," i.e., the cause of all her misfortunes. 

Such women idealize all the new men in their lives and demonize them once the infatuation goes. Throughout my marriage, my exW flipped back and forth -- every few weeks -- between adoring me and devaluing me.

If you would like to read my short description of typical BPDer behavior, please see my post in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to excellent online resources. Take care, Blessed.


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## blessedDaddy (May 13, 2012)

Holy Cow! 
I cant believe what I just read. My W is so BPD. Also from what I read I see that there is near no hope her to getting better. My W has no good friends, and she runs of mine..or at least their W's.
At our wedding she only had 1 friend show up. She is best friend with total strangers in minutes. 
Her 1st Husband and her were together 14yrs, I ve been with her near 11. 
She is super smart and easily liked. She is allergic to about everything... wheat, glutin, eggs, dairy, corn, nuts..ton of other things.. she is always on a diet.. she weights 105 LBS and thinks she is fat..or tells me I think she is fat. Our relationship has been pure hell with a few good days. 
I know I need to divorce her, yesterday she told me that she is getting softer towards me and then with in seconds after I said I was hurting inside she told me that Im crazy and I need help, that I have a disorder called Crazy starter. She then went on to tell me I drove her into the arms of another man just to divorce her so I will end up with half of all her stuff. My W is very OCD, huge self image problems... but know I believe she is this BPD!
Whats your advice, we own lots of stuff and have a son. Im the main caregiver. She never has time for the kids. Either she is acting like their bestfriends or screaming at them. She hates their boyfrinds or girlfriends, says horrible things about everyone.
She has me every now and then believing Im the crazy one. All my friends and both our families tell me I not and she is a mess.
She had a bad sexual expriance at 12 years old and a few times a year talks about it like it was yesterday. 

Give me advice


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

My advice. You need to go hire the baddest shark lawyer in town and file asking for 50% of the business and full custody.

I'm sorry but it's going to get nasty since the other side of folks like her is when they turn on you, they really turn nasty. So expect her to pull every trick and game she can. 

But there is no way you can remain married to someone like her. Even if she isn't BPD she is an unrepentant serial cheater. Unless you want to live as a cuckold or in an open marriage - run like heck.

You should get a VAR and carry it on you whenever around her. She will try to pull some nasty stuff on you, just to hurt you and make you look bad.

You should also reach out the OMW and compare notes etc.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

My reaction was you also need to get your legal situation in order. Whether you stay or go, it is not right that you have done so much for that business and you are concerned about where you stand.

Get legal advice ASAP. It will probably take a big load off your mind to know what your alternatives are. Right now I sense you feel very trapped by that, and it's probably not anywhere as bad as you think it is. But regardless--go find out the truth.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

blessedDaddy said:


> She told me that Im crazy and I need help, that I have a disorder called Crazy starter.... She has me every now and then believing Im the crazy one.


This attempt to control you through confusion is such a well-known hallmark of BPDers that the ex-partners have given it a name known on dozens of websites: "gaslighting." It is named after the classic 1944 movie, _Gaslight, _in which a husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy so as to get her institutionalized, allowing him to run off with her family jewels. One of his many tricks is to turn the house gas lights down a tiny bit every day -- all the while claiming that he sees and reads just fine.

Of the several dozen mental disorders listed in the diagnostic manual, BPD is the ONLY ONE that is notorious for making the spouses and partners feel like they may be going crazy. Women living with a sociopath or narcissist, for example, will be miserable and depressed. But they typically will not feel like they may be losing their minds. That "crazy making" behavior -- i.e., the gaslighting -- is only characteristic of BPD.


> I'm the main caregiver.


So was I. It would be more accurate to say, however, that you and I are "excessive caregivers" (commonly called "codependent" by laymen). Other than narcissists, we excessive caregivers are about the only people who will spend years living with a BPDer. The folks with strong personal boundaries walk away right after the passionate honeymoon period ends and the verbal abuse starts.


> She never has time for the kids. Either she is acting like their best friends or screaming at them.


This is not surprising because anyone with strong BPD traits has the emotional development of a four year old. Many high functioning BPDers nonetheless do well with raising children when they are young -- but do far less well when the child gets old enough to have a mind of his own. Due to her great fear of abandonment and hatred of being alone, a BPDer tends to be controlling of every aspect of her loved ones' lives.


> She hates their boyfriends or girlfriends, says horrible things about everyone.


That likely reflects her fear of abandonment and the resulting need to control her loved ones. Of course, they are much easier to control if she can isolate them from all friends and family members who otherwise would be supportive of them.

That behavior also exhibits her black-white thinking, a hallmark of persons having strong BPD traits. This all-or-nothing thinking will show up as her claiming you "never" or "always" do such and such. It also is evident in the way she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad." Moreover, she will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other -- in only ten seconds -- based only on an innocuous remark or minor infraction.

B-W thinking occurs in BPDers because they are extremely uncomfortable with ambiguities mixed feelings and uncertainty. And, of course, they cannot tolerate "cognitive dissonance," i.e., where one part of your mind believes something contradicting what is believed in another part of your mind. A BPDer therefore shoehorns her perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations into a B-W dichotomy -- not seeing that real people live in the gray area in between those polar extremes. 

This is why strong BPD traits are said to constitute a "thought distortion." This is true to a lesser degree, by the way, for all of us. Every time you get intense feelings (e.g., infatuation or anger) your judgement of other peoples' intentions becomes distorted by those feelings. Indeed, this has happened to you so many hundreds of times that, by high school, you already knew you could not trust your own judgment when you are very angry (or infatuated or drunk). 

That is why we all try to wait until we have time to cool off before making decisions or taking actions. BPDers, however, generally are unaware the distortion is occurring and, even when they are, usually will act on those distorted perceptions because -- like a young child -- they lack impulse control.


> She had a bad sexual experience at 12 years old and a few times a year talks about it like it was yesterday.


If she has strong BPD traits, the bulk of the damage to her emotional core likely happened before age five. When a trauma occurs that early, it prevents her from developing a strong integrated self image. And it stops her emotional development, leaving her stuck with the ego defenses and emotional development of a four year old. 

This could explain, then, why you are seeing a woman who does not know who she really is and, as a consequence, looks to others to provide clues as to how she should be acting. This means you likely will see her behaving differently around different types of people -- thus being able to fit in with a wide variety of different people.


> Whats your advice, we own lots of stuff and have a son.


My usual advice, when a spouse with strong BPD traits refuses to start treatment and stay with it, is to divorce. Otherwise, you will be harming both of you.

You will be harming her by enabling her childish selfish behavior to continue -- allowing her to GET AWAY WITH IT. It is harmful to her because you likely are destroying her only chance to confront her own issues and learn to manage them. For that to happen, she must be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior. Otherwise, she will never "grow up."

Yet, because you have a 3 year old son, I do not give that advice. When young children are involved, I always advise the spouses to do what is in the best interests of their children. That said, given that she is not a good mother, I nonetheless am inclined to agree with Shaggy and your parents that you should walk away and sue for 50% of the business and home. But, of course, you are best positioned to know what is best for your young son. 

I do have several more specific suggestions to offer. As an initial matter, if you suspect your W has strong BPD traits, I recommend that you NOT tell her. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

Second, if you think you may stay with her a while, I suggest you get _Stop Walking on Eggshells,_ the best-selling BPD book targeted to spouses like you. Or, if you are decided to get a divorce instead, get _Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._ Both books are written by the same author.

Third, I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. This issue is such an enormous problem that that website is growing by 20 new members every day. The result is that it offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Staying" board, "Leaving" board, and "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD."

Fourth, while you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is "Surviving a Breakup with Someone with BPD" at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York.

Fifth, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two _by yourself_ -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with -- and how likely it is she may pass it on to your son. As I've explained in many other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to NOT have the BPDer along. Therapists are loath to tell high functioning BPDers the name of the disorder.

Finally, Blessed, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

B,

You know what you have to do for your sake and the kids.

You should also DNA test your son. Sorry to say but he may not be yours


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## blessedDaddy (May 13, 2012)

That why we had our son. She got caught having an affair. I was leaving her and she was super needed and we ended up having sex about 2 times a day for a couple months.. she wanted to get pregnat.. untill she did then it was my fault and I got her pregnat on purpose. She still says that I did it just so we would be tied together forever.
If for some reason he was not my son. I dont want to know, I love him and I will rasie him the best I can. He is my little pride and joy. plus we have many same features.. trust me Im a little nervious about DNA... but Im 99% possitive


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

You "CAN" give up hope now... But it doesn't sound like you want to.

Decide what you want, grab the bull by the horns & go for it. WOrst- she can say no, she doesn't want to work it out..... At best, you get it all worked out.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

What a piece of work. At some point, you need mental peace


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Can I ask what drew you to someone who was a cheater? I'm just curious, did the looks just completely dazzle you? 
I think you need a good lawyer and a good therapist. Both are essential.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blessedDaddy (May 13, 2012)

Yes she is about a 9 on the hottness chart
according to her she is also the best Christian, the smartest, best pedigree( comes from a higher class of people). My family which is a normal GOOD family is considered trailer trash, My daughters mother is the worst nastiest white trash ***** in the world..and tells my daughters that. She thinks she is such a great mom..she hardly goes to any of her kid's big events her attendance % at big events are below SAD. Her oldest son, I got him into wrestling when he was in the 6th grade ( I got him when he was 7, now 17) my wife's eX had the kids 50/50 and he works alot.. so for the last 10 years I do most of the parents stuff. He has had 300 matches and I bet she has seen 10..her eX 75, I have seen 250 of his 300 matches.

I have talked to her eX, he says he has never been happier and wish he would of never meet her.. other than for his kids.

His story says she has acted like this for a long time. Since not long after he meet her when she was 15.

He says she got diagnosed with bi polar, self image disorder, OCD, anorexia and she was bulimic. She was put on meds..which she has told me about.( for short time she said they made her want to kill herself) But she swears to have never been diagnosed for anything and that he made it up. 

Im on day 6 of being moved out. She brings my son by every day for8+ hours and tonight she just texted and ask if I wanted him to stay the night.. This after 5 night ago threating to put a life time restraining order on me against her and my son. Saying she had 9 years of documented abuse..which she has ZERO she has hit me more than 100 times to my ZERO. I know I will end up with the little guys.. she is a REAL wreck.


We have over a million in equity, so Im not super freaked out about surviving. We have some very nice things, My life style will change... but I dont think I can do this anymore. Its so sad and it breaks my heart,, I know she is sick..but how long and at what point do I throw in the LAWYERS?


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## blessedDaddy (May 13, 2012)

My W just called me at midnight...

She told me that her boyfriend is the one to blame, he tricked her, talked her in to everything, he convinced her that he was her savior he was here to fix all her problems.

Now she knows he is no better than any one else. And just his name makes her sick.

She still is blaming me, that if I was a better husband she wouldn't of needed to talk to him.

She says Ive blown this out of proportion. I'm just trying to ruin her.

SHe says she is scared to be alone and might come over here tonight.
My son and I were just going to bed and now she has me all upset.
Her now EX BF's wife is threatening to shoot her.

Will this madness ever end?
After all her talks she still just blames me for being the reason all this is happening.
Like I said 'Im not perfect!"
but I have tried my best.. and have failed
She is telling me Im making it very hard for her to forgive me for telling her parents, and my mom.
She has me on the edge of going crazy.
Do I love her.. of course..wife of 10yrs, mother to my son.
I moved out and am trying to have little to no contact... the more i stay away ..the more she calls and wants to hurt my feeling and blame me.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

blessedDaddy said:


> She told me that her boyfriend ... was her savior he was here to fix all her problems. Now she knows he is no better than any one else. And just his name makes her sick.


Blessed, if your W were suffering from bipolar disorder, you would see her swinging between mania and depression. Yet, that is not what you are describing. Rather, you are describing a woman who flips back and forth between the polar extremes of adoring you and hating you. 

This is evident in the way she has treated you, as I described above. It is even evident in the way she talks about her exBF, as you describe in the statement above -- where she was convinced he was "her savior" and then "his name makes her sick."


> SHe says she is scared to be alone.


BPDers HATE to be alone by themselves because, given their fragile and unstable self images, they don't even have a "Self" to keep them company. Significantly, the exBF told you she was diagnosed with having "self image disorder." 

If she does have full blown BPD -- and only a professional can make that determination -- it is very unlikely she would be told that by a psychologist treating her. Therapists are loath to tell the patient the name of that disorder, as I've explained in many other threads (generally, it is not in the patient's best interests to tell her unless she is very low functioning). Hence, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion about BPD traits -- as I suggested above -- is to see YOUR OWN psychologist for a visit or two by yourself.


> After all her talks she still just blames me for being the reason all this is happening.


If she is a BPDer, she is convinced she is always "The Victim" and she "validate" that false self image by perceiving you as savior or perpetrator. Obviously, she must be "the victim" if you are trying to save her or if you are the perpetrator. This is why, when the infatuation period ended, she immediately flipped to perceiving you as "The Perpetrator" instead of "The Savior." And, as you describe above, she did exactly the same thing with her exBF as well.


> I have tried my best.. and have failed.


Of course you failed. You were trying to do the impossible. At least you didn't keep trying to do it for 15 years, as I foolishly did. Even a team of psychologists will be unable to help your W as long as she is determined not to fix herself. Sadly, it is rare for a person with strong BPD traits to have the self awareness and ego strength to be willing to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference.


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

She's in a manic episode. She needs meds quick.


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